# Is Zimbabwe Now a Rogue State?



## Munin (Feb 11, 2009)

"*Is Zimbabwe Now a Rogue State?*
And is it germ warfare when cholera sufferers are forced to cross international boundaries?

The situation in Zimbabwe has now reached the point where the international community would be entirely justified in using force to put Robert Mugabe under arrest and place him on trial. Why do I say this now?

Mugabe's crimes were frightful enough before, to be sure. But they were the crimes of an elected government, and it wasn't absolutely clear that they exceeded the threshold at which intervention can be justified or, rather, mandated. Essentially, there are four such criteria. One is genocide, which, according to the signatories of the Genocide Convention (the United States is one), necessitates immediate action either to prevent or to punish the perpetrators. Another is aggression against the sovereignty of neighboring states, including occupation of their territory. A third is hospitality for, or encouragement of, international terrorist groups, and a fourth is violations of the Nonproliferation Treaty or of U.N. resolutions governing weapons of mass destruction.


Mugabe did kill a lot of people in Matabeleland in the 1980s on punitive expeditions inflicted by special units, trained by North Korea, against an ethnic group not his own. And he has punished recalcitrant voting districts by the indiscriminate denial of food supplies. But this doesn't quite rise to the level of "genocide." His soldiers may at one time have taken part in the opportunist looting of the resources of Congo, but this doesn't exactly qualify as invasion or occupation. Zimbabwe is not a harbor or haven for wanted international terrorists, and it isn't a player in the international WMD black market, either.


The situation has altered recently, however, and an examination of what has altered may help us to clarify when a state crosses the boundary from "failed" to "rogue." So great is the misery of the Zimbabwean people that acute diseases like cholera are now rife. And such is their degree of desperation that they have started crossing the frontier en masse, chiefly in the direction of South Africa, taking their maladies with them. This means that Mugabe has made himself an international problem, destabilizing his neighbors and thus giving them a direct legitimate interest in (and a right to concern themselves with) the restabilizing of Zimbabwe. If the voices of people like Desmond Tutu and Graça Machel, who are beginning to insist that regional action be taken to remove Mugabe, are ever heard properly, it will probably be because Mugabe went too far in driving infected people onto the territory of the countries next door. This is germ warfare of a kind.


Nor is it a detail that Mugabe clearly lost the last election in Zimbabwe, in spite of being able to use the machinery of state as if it were the private property of his own ruling party. ..."

Is Zimbabwe a rogue state? - By Christopher Hitchens - Slate Magazine


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## Diuretic (Feb 11, 2009)

Works for me!

Hitchens' argument is elegant.

I just want the fucker taken out.


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## strollingbones (Feb 11, 2009)

the international community has totally ignored the situation until the refugees began to move...i like the comparsion to the community..where the house has finally gotten so crime ridden etc that it must be dealt with...there will be no action...as long as it is black people dying...no one gives a flying fuck...doesnt matter if its domestic blacks...ie...katrina...or not...why should the us care about black people all the way over in africa when they dont care about black people here?  do not think that the election of obama is gonna change things for the black man/woman...

as for never allowing genocide that is just a joke...it has gone on for decades in africa and no one has cared...


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## Diuretic (Feb 11, 2009)

The vicious bastard is protected by the other southern Africa states.  They need to get out of their historical mindset   blaming colonialism or they will never progress. They are prisoners of that mentality.  Mugabe must go.  Unfortunately he has enablers all around him, that pathetic creature Mbeki was Mugabe's chief enabler.   Even the ANC government was embarrassed by Mbeki's behaviour and gave him the boot but sadly nothing changed.  Only a few brave leaders spoke against Mugabe but while the ANC supports this bloke the others will obey.  They are totally and utterly corrupt, along with Mugabe and ZANU-PF.  The lot of them are disgusting.


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## 52ndStreet (Feb 11, 2009)

Diuretic said:


> The vicious bastard is protected by the other southern Africa states.  They need to get out of their historical mindset   blaming colonialism or they will never progress. They are prisoners of that mentality.  Mugabe must go.  Unfortunately he has enablers all around him, that pathetic creature Mbeki was Mugabe's chief enabler.   Even the ANC government was embarrassed by Mbeki's behaviour and gave him the boot but sadly nothing changed.  Only a few brave leaders spoke against Mugabe but while the ANC supports this bloke the others will obey.  They are totally and utterly corrupt, along with Mugabe and ZANU-PF.  The lot of them are disgusting.



The White racist European  colonialist, are the only rogue states on the Earth.
It is because of them why we have Robert Mugabe.

The European Robber barons,murderers and rapist,marauding plunderers, are the true
definition of what a rogue state is. They have raped the African continent, and enriched themselves only, while many Zimbabewean , and South African blacks still live in squaler,and abject poverty.!!


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## Toro (Feb 11, 2009)

52ndStreet said:


> many Zimbabewean , and South African blacks still live in squaler,and abject poverty.!!



Yes, thanks to the incompetent Mugabe, more black people are dirt poor than at any time in the past 40 years.


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## Diuretic (Feb 12, 2009)

52ndStreet said:


> Diuretic said:
> 
> 
> > The vicious bastard is protected by the other southern Africa states.  They need to get out of their historical mindset   blaming colonialism or they will never progress. They are prisoners of that mentality.  Mugabe must go.  Unfortunately he has enablers all around him, that pathetic creature Mbeki was Mugabe's chief enabler.   Even the ANC government was embarrassed by Mbeki's behaviour and gave him the boot but sadly nothing changed.  Only a few brave leaders spoke against Mugabe but while the ANC supports this bloke the others will obey.  They are totally and utterly corrupt, along with Mugabe and ZANU-PF.  The lot of them are disgusting.
> ...



Guess what?  I don't give a shit about history, at least as far as any rationalisation of this bastard's behaviour because it is simple fucking bullshit to grab for it.  What was done is in the past.  What is important is the present and Mugabe is a fucking criminal who needs to go to the Hague.  Cecil Rhodes can go with him.  So can Ian Smith.  Oh wait, they're dead.  Okay, Mugabe can go, the bastard.


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## 52ndStreet (Feb 12, 2009)

Diuretic said:


> 52ndStreet said:
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> > Diuretic said:
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Typical White cop out answer.Oh, lets just forget about the past, and what we did to Africa.! Well, all those actions by White Europeans in the past, has proven to  have a direct effect on todays present Day conditions.

So, please don't tell me to forget about the past.! The past has great influence on the 
future. Why are you Whites always telling Blacks to forget about your evil deeds from the 
past!!?.History can somtime repeat itself, is what I have always been told.


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## Diuretic (Feb 12, 2009)

52ndStreet said:


> Typical White cop out answer.Oh, lets just forget about the past, and what we did to Africa.! Well, all those actions by White Europeans in the past, has proven to  have a direct effect on todays present Day conditions.
> 
> So, please don't tell me to forget about the past.! The past has great influence on the
> future. Why are you Whites always telling Blacks to forget about your evil deeds from the
> past!!?.History can somtime repeat itself, is what I have always been told.



As I was saying, the past isn't relevant.  That's the sort of bullshit that Mugabe uses to con Zimbabweans, oh no the big bad Whitey colonists are coming back to take over.  That is such a supine position, to point to the past and whine.  The problems are in the now, not the past.  Mugabe and ZANU--PF have to go, they were kicked out of office but the corrupt bastard used the Army and Police to keep himself in power.


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## 52ndStreet (Feb 12, 2009)

Diuretic said:


> 52ndStreet said:
> 
> 
> > Typical White cop out answer.Oh, lets just forget about the past, and what we did to Africa.! Well, all those actions by White Europeans in the past, has proven to  have a direct effect on todays present Day conditions.
> ...



I agree with your point to look towards the future, and not to wallow in the past,but many
whites have , and still maintain a huge advantage over blacks in terms of economic wealth
and property, as a direct result of illegal acts from the past. Yes Zimbabwe has problems
that need to be solved now. But White European and American sanctions are not helping 
an already volatile situation,it is only hurting Zimbabweans.


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## del (Feb 12, 2009)

Diuretic said:


> 52ndStreet said:
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> 
> > Typical White cop out answer.Oh, lets just forget about the past, and what we did to Africa.! Well, all those actions by White Europeans in the past, has proven to  have a direct effect on todays present Day conditions.
> ...





at some point, you just have to say fuck it and soldier on. scapegoating serves no one.


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## Munin (Feb 12, 2009)

52ndStreet said:


> Diuretic said:
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> > 52ndStreet said:
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Easy there, the blacks from Africa also went to invade Europe (Hannibal? The muslim crusades into Europe, especially Spain). Do you hear Europeans whine about them? NO

Africans need to look to the future not the past (more then 50 years ago). The french, the dutch, the belgian, ... also stopped whining about the German occupation during WWII.


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## Diuretic (Feb 13, 2009)

52ndStreet said:


> I agree with your point to look towards the future, and not to wallow in the past,but many
> whites have , and still maintain a huge advantage over blacks in terms of economic wealth
> and property, as a direct result of illegal acts from the past. Yes Zimbabwe has problems
> that need to be solved now. But White European and American sanctions are not helping
> an already volatile situation,it is only hurting Zimbabweans.



I admit I always wonder what the point of sanctions is (unless they're specifically targeted at individuals) because ordinary folks are hurt and that makes no sense.

Where Mugabe made his errors was - apparently, I mean really, I can only go with what I've read, I have no special knowledge - giving farms to his supporters.  I know it's fine for me to be wise in hindsight but I don't think you do good for your country if you seize and destroy its assets and resources.  Now, Zimbabwe is rich in resources (apart from the now ruined farms) and guess who's getting fat off those?  Yep, Mugabe and his Army and Police chiefs.  What Zimbabwe needs is Mugabe and his cronies gone.  They need to be replaced with the elected MDC.  Then the rest of us need to pitch in and help.


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## Diuretic (Feb 13, 2009)

Munin said:


> ....... Easy there, the blacks from Africa also went to invade Europe (Hannibal? The muslim crusades into Europe, especially Spain). Do you hear Europeans whine about them? NO
> 
> Africans need to look to the future not the past (more then 50 years ago). The french, the dutch, the belgian, ... also stopped whining about the German occupation during WWII.



Hannibal wasn't black.  Africa had and has a huge number of racially diverse people.  Hannibal came from Carthage in North Africa and would have been described as "white".

But there I go, getting picky


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## editec (Feb 13, 2009)

Diuretic said:


> 52ndStreet said:
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## editec (Feb 13, 2009)

Diuretic said:


> Munin said:
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> > ....... Easy there, the blacks from Africa also went to invade Europe (Hannibal? The muslim crusades into Europe, especially Spain). Do you hear Europeans whine about them? NO
> ...


 

Quite right. Carthage was originally Greek colony.

You're not getting picky.

You're fighting ignorance when you correct the record.

Good for you!


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## Munin (Feb 14, 2009)

editec said:


> Diuretic said:
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My mistake  

But didn't his army also exist out of black african warriors from tribal areas in Africa?


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## WilliamC (Mar 2, 2009)

_"The White racist European colonialist, are the only rogue states on the Earth.  It is because of them why we have Robert Mugabe.

The European Robber barons,murderers and rapist,marauding plunderers, are the true definition of what a rogue state is. They have raped the African continent, and enriched themselves only, while many Zimbabewean , and South African blacks still live in squaler,and abject poverty.!!"_

When Mugabe came to power in 1980 he was democratically elected by the people of Zimbabwe, not appointed by the colonialist oppressors.  His first move, as has been described, was to consolidate his position by sending murder squads to kill the opposition ZAPU who were drawn mostly from the Ndebele (Matabele) as opposed to his own Shona tribe.  He inherited a country with a fully functioning free health service, a fully functioning free school system, well maintained roads, rail and utilities.  Rhodesia, as was, was the envy of Africa and was universally acclaimed as being the bread basket of Africa. And what has Mr Mugaby and his ZANU-PF cronies done with this inheritance?   

When are apologists for corrupt African dictators such as 52nd Street going to stop putting the blame for failing African states such as Zimbabwe's on the colonialists.  It rests firmly in the hands of the "indigenous" population who have lived off their inheritance, have sold the family silver and are now putting out the begging bowl for more.


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## Diuretic (Mar 2, 2009)

And apparently the old dictator has recently stated that even more white farmers will be dispossed of their land.  They are apparently being told to leave their farms and leave Zimbabwe.  They were probably born there, therefore they are Zimbabwean citizens by birth.  But the old dictator wants to kick them out.  The old dictator is an old racist dictator.  He is indefensible.  He is scum.


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## Munin (Mar 2, 2009)

52ndStreet said:


> The White racist European  colonialist, are the only rogue states on the Earth.
> It is because of them why we have Robert Mugabe.
> 
> The European Robber barons,murderers and rapist,marauding plunderers, are the true
> definition of what a rogue state is. They have raped the African continent, and enriched themselves only, while many Zimbabewean , and South African blacks still live in squaler,and abject poverty.!!



I agree with you that Americans and Europeans should change their trade policies towards african countries, but the other African Nations are doing better then Zimbabwe so that proves that this isn't the fault of the colonials.

And lets look at the life of mr Mugabe, the anti colonial hero:



> Robert Gabriel Karigamombe Mugabe was born in Matibiri village near Kutama Mission in the Zvimba District north east of Salisbury in Southern Rhodesia. He had two older brothers, and one of them, Michael, was very popular in the village. Both his older brothers died, leaving Robert and his younger brother, Donato.[30] His father, Gabriel Mugabe Matibiri, a carpenter,[7] abandoned the Mugabe family in 1934 after Michael died, in search of work in Bulawayo.[31] Mugabe was raised as a Roman Catholic, studying in Marist Brothers and *Jesuit schools*, including the exclusive Kutama College, headed by an *Irish priest, Father Jerome O'Hea, who took him under his wing*. Through his youth, Mugabe was never socially popular nor physically active and spent most of his time with the priests or his mother when he was not reading in the school's libraries. He was described as never playing with other children but enjoying his own company.[7] He qualified as a teacher, but left to study at Fort Hare in South Africa graduating in 1951 while meeting contemporaries such as Julius Nyerere, Herbert Chitepo, Robert Sobukwe and Kenneth Kaunda. He then *studied at the University of Oxford* in 1952, Salisbury (1953), Gwelo (1954), and Tanzania (1955&#8211;1957). Originally graduating with a Bachelor of Arts degree from the University of Fort Hare in 1951, Mugabe subsequently earned six further degrees through distance learning including a Bachelor of Administration and Bachelor of Education from the University of South Africa and *a Bachelor of Science, Bachelor of Laws, Master of Science, and Master of Laws, all from the University of London External Programme*.[32] The two Law degrees were earned while he was in prison, the Master of Science degree earned during his premiership of Zimbabwe.[33] After graduating, Mugabe lectured at Chalimbana Teacher Training College, in Zambia from 1955&#8211;1958, thereafter he taught at Apowa Secondary School at Takoradi, in the Western Region of Ghana after completing his local certification at Achimota School (1958 &#8211; 1960), where he met Sarah Francesca (Sally) Hayfron, who later became his first wife. During his stay in Ghana, he was influenced and inspired by Ghana's then-Prime Minister, Kwame Nkrumah. In addition, Mugabe and some of his Zimbabwe African National Union party cadres received instruction at the Kwame Nkrumah Ideological Institute, then at Winneba in southern Ghana.[34][35]


 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Mugabe

You shouldn't be so black and white, not all whites were bad. In fact the Colonialists provided Africa with a complete railway system that still is being used today (because the African governments still have not build new ones or upgraded them).


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