# Republicans want to cut education by 25 percent.



## rdean (Jan 1, 2012)

Because Budget Resolution 34 doesn't include detailed breakdowns of Function 500 spending reductions, it's impossible to determine exactly how much of the cuts are proposed to come out of the education budget. Further, the plan itself, in resolution form, does not dictate exact spending levels, but instead sets the maximum amount that can be spent. Congressional committees and floor votes determine the rest.

Still, because education spending makes up such a large proportion of the total Function 500 costs &#8211; over 90 percent &#8211; it's safe to assume most of the cuts from this category would come from education.

With that in mind, the percentages don't lie. The Ryan budget proposal included more than 25 percent funding cuts every year between 2016 and 2021, and it proposed a total 24 percent funding cut between 2012 and 2021, within range of Axelrod&#8217;s 25 percent figure. Axelrod's figures are correct  if you include everything in the category, most of which is education, but it also includes items that are not education.

We rate Axelrod's claim Mostly True.

PolitiFact | Obama adviser Axelrod says Republican want deep education cuts

Start by going state by state and you will find that everywhere Republicans have taken control of the state legislature, they slashed funding for education.  Think people.  Why would they do this?

HELENA &#8212; The Republican majority on an education subcommittee on Thursday cut $4 million in proposed state funding for programs such as those for gifted and talented students and providing vocational education, a move that jeopardizes an equivalent amount of federal money.

Education subcommittee Republicans cut school funding

Stop sugar-coating the education cuts

To downplay the impact that devastating budget cuts will have on higher education and the state's students, Republicans have had to employ some tortured logic.

Concord Monitor

Gov. Rick Scott's proposed education budget: $1.75 billion in cuts

Thousands gather in Michigan to oppose education cuts

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Why stop at four.  Every state Republicans have taken over, they've slashed funding for education.  Why?  Simple.  An ignorant population is easier to control.  That's all there is to it.

When it comes to power or what's best for America, Republicans believe they're being in power IS what's best for America.  What ever the cost.

And finally, the worst possible thing they could do is replace education with nothing.  Which is exactly what they propose.  Oh, and make children assistant janitors.  Shameful.


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## Truthmatters (Jan 1, 2012)

That is right in line with the norquest plan


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## Truthmatters (Jan 1, 2012)

&#8220;My goal is to cut government in half in twenty-five years, to get it down to the size where we can drown it in the bathtub.&#8221;


http://thinkexist.com/quotes/grover_norquist/


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## rdean (Jan 1, 2012)

Truthmatters said:


> My goal is to cut government in half in twenty-five years, to get it down to the size where we can drown it in the bathtub.
> 
> 
> Grover Norquist quotes



Considering this Republican Party is so old, in 25 years, the current majority will probably be gone or thanking God every day for Medicare.


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## syrenn (Jan 1, 2012)

rdean said:


> Because Budget Resolution 34 doesn't include detailed breakdowns of Function 500 spending reductions, it's impossible to determine exactly how much of the cuts are proposed to come out of the education budget. Further, the plan itself, in resolution form, does not dictate exact spending levels, but instead sets the maximum amount that can be spent. Congressional committees and floor votes determine the rest.
> 
> Still, because education spending makes up such a large proportion of the total Function 500 costs  over 90 percent  it's safe to assume most of the cuts from this category would come from education.
> 
> ...





My guess the fastest way to cut education 25% without cutting anything from anyone would be requiring prof of citizenship to get the education.


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## old navy (Jan 1, 2012)

syrenn said:


> My guess the fastest way to cut education 25% without cutting anything from anyone would be requiring prof of citizenship to get the education.[/COLOR]



Not a bad idea. The only thing required to enroll in school right now is an immunization record and proof of address.

There is plenty of room for cuts in education budgets. All agencies and departments should take on part of the burden in controlling the out of control government spending.


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## Baruch Menachem (Jan 1, 2012)

State of Oregon required birth certificate or copy of the visa when I enrolled my kids.

It might vary from state to state.

Now the deal is, this is an agreement reached by congress during the last scam crisis the Obama perpetrated.    This was the resolution.  If the super committee failed,  then this would be the result.  The Democrats sabotaged the super committee, it failed, so this is now the Republicans' fault?


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## OohPooPahDoo (Jan 1, 2012)

Truthmatters said:


> &#8220;My goal is to cut government in half in twenty-five years, to get it down to the size where we can drown it in the bathtub.&#8221;
> 
> 
> Grover Norquist quotes



That will work out great so long as none of our enemies can get access to a bath tub and some water.


Hey why don't we just give up on civilization entirely?


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## rdean (Jan 1, 2012)

That's it?  Cuts are good if we can figure out ways of denying education to children of illegal immigrants?  

Why can't Republicans figure out ways of building things up instead of just tearing them down?  Are they so burned by their disaster in Iraq?  They want to rebuild that country.  Spend hundreds of billions to create a friend for Iran.  But do nothing here.  al Qaeda loves it.  

They can't figure any way to help the economy besides give bribes to rich people, whether it's tax cuts or subsidies, they amount to bribes.


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## rdean (Jan 1, 2012)

OohPooPahDoo said:


> Truthmatters said:
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> > My goal is to cut government in half in twenty-five years, to get it down to the size where we can drown it in the bathtub.
> ...



Which of course, is why Republicans are slashing education.  "Every man for himself".


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## OohPooPahDoo (Jan 1, 2012)

rdean said:


> Why can't Republicans figure out ways of building things up instead of just tearing them down?



Because Republicans* like *breaking stuff. They LIKE going to war. They LIKE taking down economies. They LIKE it when poor people and the middle class have less of anything you can name (education, health care, etc.)


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## rdean (Jan 1, 2012)

OohPooPahDoo said:


> rdean said:
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> > Why can't Republicans figure out ways of building things up instead of just tearing them down?
> ...



I know.


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## RetiredGySgt (Jan 1, 2012)

There is ZERO authority in the Constitution for social programs or for Education both should be removed from the Federal Budget. Both are State responsibilities.


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## MeBelle (Jan 1, 2012)

rdean said:


> OohPooPahDoo said:
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Guess thats what happens when STIM funds run out!

"Federal stimulus money approved by Congress when the Democrats were in control helped during the heart of the recession, delaying layoffs of teachers and police officers while moderating cuts to Medicaid and other public health programs. Some states raised taxes and fees and tapped their rainy-day funds."

BROKEN BUDGET: State revenue rises, but not enough to offset cuts - Columbia Missourian

Dam those democrats tooo!

State Budget 2011-12 - California Teachers Association

California....

How come TruthMatters isn't screaming about California cutting education?


States' revenue is expected to rise, but not enough to offset budget cuts | cleveland.com

*Washington state* is considering similar cuts to cope with its shortfall, including shortening its school year, eliminating medical programs for 55,000 low-income residents and letting some low- and moderate-risk offenders out of prison early. 

*Missouri *is reducing funding for elementary and secondary education to close a mid-year budget deficit tied to tornado recovery. North Carolina Gov. Beverly Perdue, a Democrat, is warning of thousands of teacher layoffs next fall because federal aid to local school districts is running out. 

*In Colorado,* Gov. John Hickenlooper has proposed deep cuts to K-12 funding and higher education, largely because of a spike in Medicaid enrollment. 

"This doesn't make us happy," said Hickenlooper, a Democrat. "I don't see a way to get around it." 


Illinois Budget Crisis 2010: Big Cuts Coming For Schools, Police, Child Care
Illinois!


Massachusetts:
*Reducing state aid by $65 million.
*Shedding as many as 900 jobs, adding to the 5,900 eliminated since late 2008
Eliminating *employment services* for those on transitional assistance
Cutting benefits for those enrolled in* MassHealth, the state's Medicaid program*
Slashing $23 million in spending on *emergency homeless shelters*

All those poor people getting poorer, kicking people into the streets.
NO health insurance...or rationed at best.
Cuttings JOBS!! I thought government CREATED jobs, not cut them!


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## syrenn (Jan 1, 2012)

rdean said:


> That's it?  Cuts are good if we can figure out ways of denying education to children of illegal immigrants?
> 
> Why can't Republicans figure out ways of building things up instead of just tearing them down?  Are they so burned by their disaster in Iraq?  They want to rebuild that country.  Spend hundreds of billions to create a friend for Iran.  But do nothing here.  al Qaeda loves it.
> 
> They can't figure any way to help the economy besides give bribes to rich people, whether it's tax cuts or subsidies, they amount to bribes.



As i said.... my guess no education cuts would be necessary if money was not wasted on illegals. How hard was that to grasp?


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## PredFan (Jan 1, 2012)

The US spends the 2nd most (as a ratio to GDP) of all countries on earth and yet our children are progressively falling behind in education.

Throwing money at the problem hasn't worked and might actually be the problem. Slash education, our kids can't get any dumber than government schools are already making them.


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## code1211 (Jan 1, 2012)

rdean said:


> That's it?  Cuts are good if we can figure out ways of denying education to children of illegal immigrants?
> 
> Why can't Republicans figure out ways of building things up instead of just tearing them down?  Are they so burned by their disaster in Iraq?  They want to rebuild that country.  Spend hundreds of billions to create a friend for Iran.  But do nothing here.  al Qaeda loves it.
> 
> They can't figure any way to help the economy besides give bribes to rich people, whether it's tax cuts or subsidies, they amount to bribes.





If you're talking about funding to public schools by the feds, you're talking about a cut of 25% of 7% for a total reduction in the overall subsidization of 1.75%.

Can you never accurately describe what it is you're tailing about?

Hyperbole is not a good thing when it serves to completely hide the meaning of the thing discussed.This is how the Dems always use hyperbole.


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## code1211 (Jan 1, 2012)

PredFan said:


> The US spends the 2nd most (as a ratio to GDP) of all countries on earth and yet our children are progressively falling behind in education.
> 
> Throwing money at the problem hasn't worked and might actually be the problem. Slash education, our kids can't get any dumber than government schools are already making them.





If any foreign power had done to our education system what the Department of Education has done to it, it would be considered an act of war.


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## RetiredGySgt (Jan 1, 2012)

MeBelle60 said:


> rdean said:
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It is DIFFERENT when Dems cut, they just are looking out for the majority of course. I know for a fact Washington Massachusetts and California are run by Dems.


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## bigrebnc1775 (Jan 1, 2012)

Education has failed America look at how fucked up our government is and how most Americans are complacent when obama signed the NDAA 2012 into law on Dec. 31 2011


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## MeBelle (Jan 1, 2012)

RetiredGySgt said:


> It is DIFFERENT when Dems cut, they just are looking out for the majority of course. I know for a fact Washington Massachusetts and California are run by Dems.



I understand.
I just wish the partisan hackery would stop and people would come together with solutions instead of creating a bigger divide.


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## westwall (Jan 1, 2012)

Here at WNC they had to cut 38% of the budget.  After the blood letting was over, the admin staff still make on average 250,000 per year while Dr. Lucey pulls in over 400,000 per year.  They let go one faculty member who had been making 125,000 per year for over 25 years and had had ONE student graduate with a degree from her class.

They got rid of dozens of other classes that had no degree program at all.  Obviously they cut the adjunct staff that taught them as well.  Finally my wife tells me that at the last faculty meeting before the school year began Dr. Lucey actually had to say to the remaining staff "Ok people, you're going to have actually put in a five day work week from now on.  We don't have the staff to be able to take it easy now".

The end result of the cuts was a lot of staff that weren't really doing much of anything other then pulling down a hefty paycheck.  They closed three rural campuses that had less then 10 students in each one and they now take the college classes at the highschools.  My wife has about 10 more students per class and other then that you would have a very hard time figuring out if anything has changed.


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## bigrebnc1775 (Jan 1, 2012)

MeBelle60 said:


> RetiredGySgt said:
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> 
> > It is DIFFERENT when Dems cut, they just are looking out for the majority of course. I know for a fact Washington Massachusetts and California are run by Dems.
> ...



You cannot come together with people who's philosophy is the total opposite of your's.Do you think a sheep would agree with the philosophy of a wolf? Just saying


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## Quantum Windbag (Jan 1, 2012)

rdean said:


> Because Budget Resolution 34 doesn't include detailed breakdowns of Function 500 spending reductions, it's impossible to determine exactly how much of the cuts are proposed to come out of the education budget. Further, the plan itself, in resolution form, does not dictate exact spending levels, but instead sets the maximum amount that can be spent. Congressional committees and floor votes determine the rest.
> 
> Still, because education spending makes up such a large proportion of the total Function 500 costs  over 90 percent  it's safe to assume most of the cuts from this category would come from education.
> 
> ...



Lets go state by state.

Brown Proposes New Budget, Cuts To Education, Welfare And Social Services | KPBS.org

Oops, no Republicans there.


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## rdean (Jan 1, 2012)

Quantum Windbag said:


> rdean said:
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> > Because Budget Resolution 34 doesn't include detailed breakdowns of Function 500 spending reductions, it's impossible to determine exactly how much of the cuts are proposed to come out of the education budget. Further, the plan itself, in resolution form, does not dictate exact spending levels, but instead sets the maximum amount that can be spent. Congressional committees and floor votes determine the rest.
> ...



Are you talking about the state where Ahhhnold was gov for years and years?  I have to admit, he left less of a mess than Bush left Obama.


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## Quantum Windbag (Jan 1, 2012)

rdean said:


> Quantum Windbag said:
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Arnold actually spent more money on education than his predecessor, Brown is cutting it. How is that Arnold's fault again?


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## rdean (Jan 1, 2012)

Quantum Windbag said:


> rdean said:
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Take a look at the economy when Brown was gov the first time.  Then look at the economy that Ahhhhnold left Brown.  

Besides, if Republicans are so interested in education, since 2010, why have they spent so much time on abortion and other social issues?  Funny how economies turn around when people have "Jobs Jobs Jobs".


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## Old Rocks (Jan 1, 2012)

rdean said:


> Because Budget Resolution 34 doesn't include detailed breakdowns of Function 500 spending reductions, it's impossible to determine exactly how much of the cuts are proposed to come out of the education budget. Further, the plan itself, in resolution form, does not dictate exact spending levels, but instead sets the maximum amount that can be spent. Congressional committees and floor votes determine the rest.
> 
> Still, because education spending makes up such a large proportion of the total Function 500 costs  over 90 percent  it's safe to assume most of the cuts from this category would come from education.
> 
> ...



Of course the GOP wants education cuts. As Cheney pointed out, the more educated that people become, the more they are liable to vote liberal. Just goes to show you that there can be too much of a good thing.

In the meantime, little South Korea is graduating more engineers than is the whole of the United States. And China is graduating three or four times as many as we are. 

But the 'Conservatives' are just fine with the US becoming a third world country as long as the 1% get to crack the whip.


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## asterism (Jan 1, 2012)

Old Rocks said:


> rdean said:
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> > Because Budget Resolution 34 doesn't include detailed breakdowns of Function 500 spending reductions, it's impossible to determine exactly how much of the cuts are proposed to come out of the education budget. Further, the plan itself, in resolution form, does not dictate exact spending levels, but instead sets the maximum amount that can be spent. Congressional committees and floor votes determine the rest.
> ...



You're right, we should be graduating engineers on the same scale as South Korea.  Why don't we just set our education budget to equal theirs?


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## rdean (Jan 1, 2012)

Old Rocks said:


> rdean said:
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> > Because Budget Resolution 34 doesn't include detailed breakdowns of Function 500 spending reductions, it's impossible to determine exactly how much of the cuts are proposed to come out of the education budget. Further, the plan itself, in resolution form, does not dictate exact spending levels, but instead sets the maximum amount that can be spent. Congressional committees and floor votes determine the rest.
> ...



They don't believe in science.  God will protect us.  Like he did at Pearl Harbor.  Funny how much of our technolocy and weapons come from science.  I've heard right wingers explain that science and technology are NOT the same thing and one has NOTHING to do with the other.  Besides, people can invent it in their garage.


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## rdean (Jan 1, 2012)

asterism said:


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You mean per person.

They believe in what is called a "Golden Helix".  A combination of Government, corporations and Universities working together.  In this country, Republicans think Universities are a waste of money, government should be drowned in a bathtub and corporations will do it all.  Hilarious.


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## rdean (Jan 1, 2012)

asterism said:


> Old Rocks said:
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You mean per person.

They believe in what is called a "Golden Helix".  A combination of Government, corporations and Universities working together.  In this country, Republicans think Universities are a waste of money, government should be drowned in a bathtub and corporations will do it all if you give them enough money.  Hilarious.


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## MeBelle (Jan 1, 2012)

rdean said:


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Which only proves that a Rep Gov cannot get work done with a Dem house and senate.


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## Trajan (Jan 1, 2012)

rdean said:


> Because Budget Resolution 34 doesn't include detailed breakdowns of Function 500 spending reductions, it's impossible to determine exactly how much of the cuts are proposed to come out of the education budget. Further, the plan itself, in resolution form, does not dictate exact spending levels, but instead sets the maximum amount that can be spent. Congressional committees and floor votes determine the rest.
> 
> Still, because education spending makes up such a large proportion of the total Function 500 costs  over 90 percent  it's safe to assume most of the cuts from this category would come from education.
> 
> ...



wow, you needed politi-hack to back up a claim that some rep. wants to cut funding for education? 

I want to cut funding for education too, though I am a registered rep.,  my voting record would not reflect your lockstep views,  but hey, what difference does it make,when it comes to education,  facts are not your friends anyway.


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## C_Clayton_Jones (Jan 1, 2012)

> Republicans want to cut education by 25 percent.



It would be a lot easier to list what republicans_ dont_ want to cut. Otherwise assume they want to cut it, regardless how irresponsible or ill-advised.


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## westwall (Jan 1, 2012)

Old Rocks said:


> rdean said:
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> > Because Budget Resolution 34 doesn't include detailed breakdowns of Function 500 spending reductions, it's impossible to determine exactly how much of the cuts are proposed to come out of the education budget. Further, the plan itself, in resolution form, does not dictate exact spending levels, but instead sets the maximum amount that can be spent. Congressional committees and floor votes determine the rest.
> ...








  olfraud you crack me up!  The education system has been floundering for decades.  The 1927 dated Los Angeles Unified School textbook for High School chemistry which I used (and still have BTW) is significantly better then the college textbooks of today.

Well educated people tend to vote moderate.  Too much liberalism is bad and too much conservatism is bad.  Poorly educated people tend to vote liberal because they are so incompetent they can't get a decent job so rely on government handouts to get along.


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## whitehall (Jan 1, 2012)

You can cut funding for education but how does a political party "cut education"? Maybe by hiring lazy  unqualified union teachers?


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## hortysir (Jan 1, 2012)

rdean said:


> Quantum Windbag said:
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Meanwhile the Dem-bulbs focused on their pink elephants while neglecting the rest of the economy


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## Cuyo (Jan 1, 2012)

syrenn said:


> rdean said:
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> > That's it?  Cuts are good if we can figure out ways of denying education to children of illegal immigrants?
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Lol, I severely doubt there's any math to back that claim up.

Sounds good though, doesn't it?


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## syrenn (Jan 1, 2012)

Cuyo said:


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Every single penny wasted on illegals add to the problem. Every single penny not spent on illegals is money that can be used on citizens. Not to hard to understand.

Sounds great to me...and its a start. Ax any and all money being used on illegals before you ax money for citizens.


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## Quantum Windbag (Jan 1, 2012)

rdean said:


> Quantum Windbag said:
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I thought the economy was Bush's fault, not Arnold's. Does that mean I can blame the bad economy in Ohio on the Democrats?


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## Quantum Windbag (Jan 1, 2012)

rdean said:


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If we did that we would cut the education budget by more than 25%.


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## RetiredGySgt (Jan 1, 2012)

rdean said:


> Quantum Windbag said:
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You are a real dumb ass. California has been run by Democrats for YEARS. The Legislature not the Governor establishes the Budget. Further in California due to LIBERAL stupidity about 60 percent of the Budget can not be touched.

Once again we have NUMEROUS Democratic run States that have been referenced here that are or have CUT services and education as well as social programs. And you just ignore it.


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## RetiredGySgt (Jan 1, 2012)

C_Clayton_Jones said:


> > Republicans want to cut education by 25 percent.
> 
> 
> 
> It would be a lot easier to list what republicans_ dont_ want to cut. Otherwise assume they want to cut it, regardless how irresponsible or ill-advised.



As I recall, the dems made the agreement that if the super committee couldn't come up with a budget that there would be ACROSS the board cuts?  The Dems made that deal. Then they sabotaged the process ensuring the cuts would occur.


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## bigrebnc1775 (Jan 1, 2012)

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WXhtwrnEOpE&feature=related]Celine Dion - All by myself - live 2008 - YouTube[/ame]


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## bigrebnc1775 (Jan 1, 2012)

Watch an learn and see how guberment education has fucked up children's minds

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PwjAO05Xe4Q&feature=g-u&context=G23b9d79FUAAAAAAAOAA]YOU ARE "F"d AMERICA. - YouTube[/ame]


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## asterism (Jan 1, 2012)

rdean said:


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Sure thing, pal.  So are you honestly saying that if we set our US per person education budget equal to that in South Korea things would be better?

As far as "they," I'm fairly sure you have never met anyone who has been to Korea much less actually know much about Korean culture.  Let's just say that you are as clueless about that as you are about the education spending there.

But yeah, I wish we could spend the same amount per person here too.


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## Quantum Windbag (Jan 2, 2012)

asterism said:


> rdean said:
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I think a 51.5% cut in education spending should be just about right myself. I am also pretty sure rdean, being the person he is, thought that us spending as much as South Korea per student would have resulted in an increase in spending, but he has always been easily confused by numbers.


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## asterism (Jan 2, 2012)

Quantum Windbag said:


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Pretty uneducated for a guy who supposedly values education isn't he?  The irony is that I agree with him, we SHOULD set our education budget to that of South Korea.  Right now the problem is that there is too much money in education, there's little reason for the bureaucracy to innovate.


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## Two Thumbs (Jan 2, 2012)

rdean said:


> Because Budget Resolution 34 doesn't include detailed breakdowns of Function 500 spending reductions, it's impossible to determine exactly how much of the cuts are proposed to come out of the education budget. Further, the plan itself, in resolution form, does not dictate exact spending levels, but instead sets the maximum amount that can be spent. Congressional committees and floor votes determine the rest.
> 
> Still, because education spending makes up such a large proportion of the total Function 500 costs  over 90 percent  it's safe to assume most of the cuts from this category would come from education.
> 
> ...



Good.

The DoE has fucked every child up since it's inception.  It should be cut 100% and turned back over to the States to get it out of the hands of petty leftist tyrants.


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## Unkotare (Jan 2, 2012)

rdean said:


> Start by going state by state and you will find that everywhere Republicans have taken control of the state legislature, they slashed funding for education.  Think people.  Why would they do this?
> .






Because there isn't enough money.


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## Unkotare (Jan 2, 2012)

syrenn said:


> rdean said:
> 
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> > Because Budget Resolution 34 doesn't include detailed breakdowns of Function 500 spending reductions, it's impossible to determine exactly how much of the cuts are proposed to come out of the education budget. Further, the plan itself, in resolution form, does not dictate exact spending levels, but instead sets the maximum amount that can be spent. Congressional committees and floor votes determine the rest.
> ...





Maybe so, but the Supreme Court already covered that one.


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## Unkotare (Jan 2, 2012)

rdean said:


> Why can't Republicans figure out ways of building things up instead of just tearing them down?  .



In other words, spend more of other people's money.



Fucking liberals...


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## Unkotare (Jan 2, 2012)

OohPooPahDoo said:


> rdean said:
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> > Why can't Republicans figure out ways of building things up instead of just tearing them down?
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You fucking lefty clowns are beyond ridiculous.


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## asterism (Jan 2, 2012)

Unkotare said:


> rdean said:
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> > Start by going state by state and you will find that everywhere Republicans have taken control of the state legislature, they slashed funding for education.  Think people.  Why would they do this?
> ...



I think because in the US the problem with education isn't money, it's perspective.  Seriously, why can't we be like South Korea?


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## Two Thumbs (Jan 2, 2012)

asterism said:


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What does SK do?

hell, we could be like France.  Mandatory education stops at 14 and you actually have to pass test to keep going.


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## Unkotare (Jan 2, 2012)

Old Rocks said:


> In the meantime, little South Korea is graduating more engineers than is the whole of the United States. And China is graduating three or four times as many as we are. .






You liberals don't want to emulate their educational systems.


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## Unkotare (Jan 2, 2012)

asterism said:


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The liberals most certainly don't want that.


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## rdean (Jan 2, 2012)

The most ignorant people in the world want to cut education.

Didn't see that one coming.


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## Quantum Windbag (Jan 2, 2012)

rdean said:


> The most ignorant people in the world want to cut education.
> 
> Didn't see that one coming.



Aren't you the ignorant person who wants us to set our per student spending equal to South Korea because you think they spend more than we do?


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## Unkotare (Jan 2, 2012)

Quantum Windbag said:


> rdean said:
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> > The most ignorant people in the world want to cut education.
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And it's not just the money. Liberals would have hysterical screaming fits if we emulated the South Korean educational system and practices. (hint: a huge number of SK families with the means to do so send their children HERE to be educated)


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## Mad Scientist (Jan 2, 2012)

RetiredGySgt said:


> There is ZERO authority in the Constitution for social programs or for Education both should be removed from the Federal Budget. Both are State responsibilities.


rdean missleads (as usual) with this thread. Republicans don't want to "get rid of education" they just want to take the power away from the Feds and give it to the states so that the local populace can have a greater say.

rdean is actually _against_ "People Power".


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## bigrebnc1775 (Jan 2, 2012)

RetiredGySgt said:


> There is ZERO authority in the Constitution for social programs or for Education both should be removed from the Federal Budget. Both are State responsibilities.



None what so ever.


----------



## rdean (Jan 2, 2012)

Quantum Windbag said:


> rdean said:
> 
> 
> > The most ignorant people in the world want to cut education.
> ...



No.  Why would you say that?


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## rdean (Jan 2, 2012)

Mad Scientist said:


> RetiredGySgt said:
> 
> 
> > There is ZERO authority in the Constitution for social programs or for Education both should be removed from the Federal Budget. Both are State responsibilities.
> ...



Yea, so you can teach stuff like "magical creation".  Wow, that's one way to lead the world.  Hilarious.


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## Quantum Windbag (Jan 2, 2012)

rdean said:


> Quantum Windbag said:
> 
> 
> > rdean said:
> ...



Gee, I have no idea. Could it be because you said it?



rdean said:


> asterism said:
> 
> 
> > You're right, we should be graduating engineers on the same scale as South Korea.  Why don't we just set our education budget to equal theirs?
> ...



Idiot.


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## rdean (Jan 2, 2012)

Quantum Windbag said:


> rdean said:
> 
> 
> > Quantum Windbag said:
> ...



Dipshit.  Talk about taking things out of context.  I don't know what SK pays for their education.  Their post seemed to suggest that we should pay what SK pays.  But we are a much bigger country.  So I was trying to clarify what they were saying.  Not the same budget as ours, but what is paid per student.  Not only that, but "scale" was mentioned.  You don't pay a teacher in upper New York, the same as a teacher in rural Georgia because the standard of living is so different.  Then entire post was confusing to me.

How you get "You mean per person" to mean, fuck, now you've got me lost. 

Go ahead, believe what you want.  You're a dipshit.  THAT I know.


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## Quantum Windbag (Jan 2, 2012)

rdean said:


> Quantum Windbag said:
> 
> 
> > rdean said:
> ...



Taking it out of context?

I know for a fact that the US spends more per student than any country in the world. On the average, we spend twice as much as anyone else, and, as you so conveniently point out, still graduate fewer engineers and scientists than anyone. Yet you, for some obscure reason, think the solution is to spend more money, even though every time we spend more we get less.

You claim to be an engineer, would you continue to spend more on a system that gives an inferior product, or would you scrap it and look for something that works?


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## Unkotare (Jan 2, 2012)

rdean said:


> Quantum Windbag said:
> 
> 
> > rdean said:
> ...





There's an old story in China about a farmer who had to go clean the waste behind his outhouse. He hated this disgusting work and resented doing it. One evening as he was shoveling the nightsoil he dropped his shovel and some of the filth splashed up on him. He was so angry and disgusted that he swung the shovel at the pile of shit in a rage. Of course this caused him to get even more filth on himself which made him more angry which made him swing his shovel again and again. In a short while, he was completely covered in shit and angrier than ever.

Stop swinging your shovel.


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## rdean (Jan 2, 2012)

Unkotare said:


> rdean said:
> 
> 
> > Quantum Windbag said:
> ...



I did.

This thread is about Republicans wanting to cut education.  So far, the right wingers have talked about everything but.

The truth is, they want to teach mysticism in public schools.   They believe they are so smart but are not involved in anything that would actually help the country.  They have truly bizarre ideas of what science is.  They believe science and technology are unrelated.  Worse, they have no clue what is involved in modern technology.  They still believe you can "invent stuff" in your garage that would change the world.

They think our space program means we should go to the moon again.  No one can explain why, only we should.  

This Republican Party is NOT the same one that started NASA.  This party is nutz.


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## Unkotare (Jan 2, 2012)

rdean said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> > rdean said:
> ...





What's with all these "they"s? Who are "they"?

















and you don't believe you can invent something in your garage that could change the world?


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## westwall (Jan 2, 2012)

Unkotare said:


> rdean said:
> 
> 
> > Unkotare said:
> ...







Of course not.  For all of his posturing deeanie is in reality a Luddite.


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## Quantum Windbag (Jan 2, 2012)

Unkotare said:


> rdean said:
> 
> 
> > Unkotare said:
> ...



They is everybody who does not think that Democrats are a coalition Party and that Republicans are 90% white because they are racists. It is everybody who does not believe that only 6% of scientists are Republicans because they believe in magical creation.

In other words, it is everybody who can think.


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## hortysir (Jan 2, 2012)

RetiredGySgt said:


> C_Clayton_Jones said:
> 
> 
> > > Republicans want to cut education by 25 percent.
> ...




Dammit, Gunny, what are you doing putting facts in Rtard's thread?


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## Unkotare (Jan 2, 2012)

Quantum Windbag said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> > rdean said:
> ...



Ah. Thought so.


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## ShackledNation (Jan 2, 2012)

No, Republicans want to cut federal government spending in education by 25%. Increases in government spending over the past 40 years have done absolutely nothing to help educate the population.


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## OohPooPahDoo (Jan 3, 2012)

ShackledNation said:


> No, Republicans want to cut federal government spending in education by 25%. Increases in government spending over the past 40 years have done absolutely nothing to help educate the population.




In 1970 a Pell Grant would cover 70% of the cost of a college education.
Now it covers 1/3. 

Why Is College So Expensive? : NPR


By you're logic, since we are paying 4 x as much for gasoline as we did 20 or so years ago, yet (given the same car) our cars don't go any further, clearly, more gasoline isn't the answer for getting further.


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## westwall (Jan 3, 2012)

OohPooPahDoo said:


> ShackledNation said:
> 
> 
> > No, Republicans want to cut federal government spending in education by 25%. Increases in government spending over the past 40 years have done absolutely nothing to help educate the population.
> ...








Actually, cars could go a lot further if they were allowed to use gasoline that wasn't polluted by oxygenates etc.  Put another way, show me a car with a diesel 20 years ago that could get this kind of mileage...

"The German company Loremo (short for low-resistance mobile) released a turbodiesel sportscar at last September´s Frankfurt International Auto Show capable of a whopping 117 mpg and range of no less than 621 miles. They also plan on hybrid and electric models, and even one that runs on vegetable oil.




Germans Release 117 MPG Diesel Sportscar: Biodiesel, Anyone?


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## Quantum Windbag (Jan 3, 2012)

OohPooPahDoo said:


> ShackledNation said:
> 
> 
> > No, Republicans want to cut federal government spending in education by 25%. Increases in government spending over the past 40 years have done absolutely nothing to help educate the population.
> ...



Gee, too bad we don't have something like free government student loans to pay for... 

Never mind.


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## ShackledNation (Jan 3, 2012)

OohPooPahDoo said:


> ShackledNation said:
> 
> 
> > No, Republicans want to cut federal government spending in education by 25%. Increases in government spending over the past 40 years have done absolutely nothing to help educate the population.
> ...


The reason education costs are going up is precisely because of government spending in education. Offering easy money in education (these government grants) put the same upward pressure on prices as easy money in the housing market. Sallie Mae (gee, sound familiar) is the institution providing these government student loans, just as Fannie Mae providing housing loans. The parallels between education and housing are striking if you take the time to look at them. The government programs were modeled off of each other, and you get the same results: massive price inflation.

And this isn't just about college education, it is about all education, in free public schools as well. Government has been spending more and more money each year, but results are not improving. Obviously what they are doing is not working.

My argument is precisely that more spending _does not_ increase the quality of education. So your example actually serves to disprove _your_ argument. However, your analogy is incorrect. Mileage is determined by engines and car design, not the gasoline. It really makes no sense actually, and even if it did it would only strengthen my case that more spending on education does not mean higher quality education, just as more spending on gasoline does not mean higher quality gasoline.


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## OohPooPahDoo (Jan 4, 2012)

ShackledNation said:


> OohPooPahDoo said:
> 
> 
> > ShackledNation said:
> ...



If that were true tuition at private Universities would be rising faster than those at public Universities - that's not the case. Adjusted for inflation, tuition at private Universities has actually not changed much in the past few decades.

Why is this the case?

Spending on public Universities at the *state* level has *decreased* Recession Pushed State and Local Higher-Ed Spending to 25-Year Low in 2010 - Government - The Chronicle of Higher Education
leaving those attending public universities with a greater share of the tab to pick up.



> Offering easy money in education (these government grants) put the same upward pressure on prices as easy money in the housing market. Sallie Mae (gee, sound familiar) is the institution providing these government student loans, just as Fannie Mae providing housing loans. The parallels between education and housing are striking if you take the time to look at them. The government programs were modeled off of each other, and you get the same results: massive price inflation.
> 
> 
> And this isn't just about college education, it is about all education, in free public schools as well. Government has been spending more and more money each year, but results are not improving. Obviously what they are doing is not working.



A) That's only true for federal spending, state and local spending trends have gone up and down depending on state and locality. And if you go to any state its inevitable that the school districts with the most revenue per student have the better schools - that's almost common sense. If you want your kid in a better public school you move to the district with more money available per student for public schools.

B) The mission of public education is not the same as private. Public education seeks to education any child without charging tuition - no matter if the child is a criminal miscreant, a severely physically or mentally handicapped person, etc. If you have a kid that needs an attendant with them at every moment of the school day - the public school has to foot the bill for that, while the private school almost always will not. If you child misbehaves in a private school, the private school can expel him and be done - the public school can only expel the kid into another public school. 




> My argument is precisely that more spending _does not_ increase the quality of education.



If that is in general true, then one of the two following conclusions must be true
a) it is not possible to increase the quality of eduction
b) the highest quality education comes with zero spending on education

Which is it?



> So your example actually serves to disprove _your_ argument. However, your analogy is incorrect. Mileage is determined by engines and car design, not the gasoline. It really makes no sense actually, and even if it did it would only strengthen my case that more spending on education does not mean higher quality education, just as more spending on gasoline does not mean higher quality gasoline.



Actually all gasolines are not equal - the higher priced ones tend to have cleaning agents in them that keep your fuel injectors clean. But that's another story, and I concede, it was a poor analogy.


----------



## Warrior102 (Jan 4, 2012)

rdean said:


> Because Budget Resolution 34 doesn't include detailed breakdowns of Function 500 spending reductions, it's impossible to determine exactly how much of the cuts are proposed to come out of the education budget. Further, the plan itself, in resolution form, does not dictate exact spending levels, but instead sets the maximum amount that can be spent. Congressional committees and floor votes determine the rest.
> 
> Still, because education spending makes up such a large proportion of the total Function 500 costs  over 90 percent  it's safe to assume most of the cuts from this category would come from education.
> 
> ...



You and dipshits like Truthsmathers are the product of pubic, er, public education. 25% is not enough. It should be cut 100% to eradicate dumb fucks like you.


----------



## ShackledNation (Jan 4, 2012)

OohPooPahDoo said:


> ShackledNation said:
> 
> 
> > OohPooPahDoo said:
> ...


Why would tuition at private universities have to be rising faster? I disagree with that assumption.



> Adjusted for inflation, tuition at private Universities has actually not changed much in the past few decades.


Rising tuition costs _is _an example of inflation. It makes little sense to adjust for inflation when we are specifically studying the effects of inflation.



> Why is this the case?
> 
> Spending on public Universities at the *state* level has *decreased* Recession Pushed State and Local Higher-Ed Spending to 25-Year Low in 2010 - Government - The Chronicle of Higher Education
> leaving those attending public universities with a greater share of the tab to pick up.


Education costs have been rising for several decades. Noticeable spending cuts have only occurred during the recent recession. To explain a multiple decade-long inflation by looking at a trend occurring during the past few years only makes little sense. 






Above is a graph that shows the strong correlation between higher federal government spending and rising education costs--since 1976, not in a few years.



> A) That's only true for federal spending, state and local spending trends have gone up and down depending on state and locality. And if you go to any state its inevitable that the school districts with the most revenue per student have the better schools - that's almost common sense. If you want your kid in a better public school you move to the district with more money available per student for public schools.


The fact remains that government spending on education has increased dramatically over the past 40 years, far more than any recent state education cuts.





Notice test results have not budged.



> B) The mission of public education is not the same as private. Public education seeks to education any child without charging tuition - no matter if the child is a criminal miscreant, a severely physically or mentally handicapped person, etc. If you have a kid that needs an attendant with them at every moment of the school day - the public school has to foot the bill for that, while the private school almost always will not. If you child misbehaves in a private school, the private school can expel him and be done - the public school can only expel the kid into another public school.


Public education does charge tuition: it's called taxes. You also seem to be noting the disadvantages of public schooling systems.

Also, you seem to assume private schools would expell more than public schools. In fact, "Public schools expel students at a greater ratio than private schools. In particular, private schools are less likely to remove a child for behavioral reasons."

Furthermore, the data show that money spent by private schools is far more effective than money spent by public schools. Despite spending _less per student_, private schools have _higher_ performance results.

*"Private schools cost less per student ($4,689 in 1999-2000) than what public schools spend per student ($8,032 in 1999-2000)."*

*
"The fact that private schools achieve greater outputs (student performance) means they are superior to public schools. The fact that they do it with lesser inputs (financial resources) means they are also more efficient. Private schools do more with less, and this makes them a wise place to invest education dollars."*

http://www.childrenseducationalliance-mo.org/pdf/research/education_myths.pdf



> > My argument is precisely that more spending _does not_ increase the quality of education.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Neither of those conclusions must be true! You assume that the only way to increase the quality of education is to change the amount of money that goes into education. That is absurd, and that is why government programs often fail. Where the money is spent matters, and when you get easy credit the money is often spent in wasteful ways. When politics rather than supply and demand control decisions, money is used inefficiently. That is the entire point.

If you give two companies 1 million dollars to make a phone, under your assumptions, both companies will make phones of identical qualities. But of course, that is not what happens in the real world. One company will likely use the money in more innovative ways, and end up producing a better phone.

Not all spending adds equal value to what money is being spent on. You cannot have any understanding of economics until you accept that fact.



> > So your example actually serves to disprove _your_ argument. However, your analogy is incorrect. Mileage is determined by engines and car design, not the gasoline. It really makes no sense actually, and even if it did it would only strengthen my case that more spending on education does not mean higher quality education, just as more spending on gasoline does not mean higher quality gasoline.
> 
> 
> 
> Actually all gasolines are not equal - the higher priced ones tend to have cleaning agents in them that keep your fuel injectors clean. But that's another story, and I concede, it was a poor analogy.


I knew you would bring up that example. Low grade gasoline that was $1 a decade ago has no more cleaning agents in it today than low grade gasoline that is $4 today. More money is spent on it, but quality has not increased. I am comparing the same type of gasoline, not different types. Each type of gasoline, premium or not, is increasing in price. But the quality of that gasoline does not increase with the change in its price over the years.

The evidence is overwhelming. Higher government spending does not correlate with better performance. Where and how money is spent, in other words efficiency, matters. And government bureaucracy is miserably inefficient. The more money you give it, the more money it wastes.

We all have the goal of providing students with better education. We all want to find the best solutions to achieve that goal. Throwing more money at the problem is not one of them.


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## blimpo (Jan 7, 2012)

The reason private schools have less expulsions is because they don't allow felons and thugs enroll. Public schools must roll out the red carpet for them....


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## midcan5 (Jan 7, 2012)

These debates grow old, private schools have motivated students whose lives exist in another world than the poor or the working classes. No one seems to notice that obvious fact. But still my wife teaches in a private school and many of the children are simply not motivated. America worships many things before education comes into the picture. 

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/20/o...-about-better-parents.html?src=me&ref=general

[repost] Wish I had time to write the stories my wife told me just this week about parent excuses and American student's laziness. Baffling for sure, but telling of why we are growing dumber and dumber as a nation. Oh, by the way, turn on TV too if you want to understand our culture of narcissistic insanity, detective shows, and medical aliments that House can't solve. Then watch Repo shows and whatnot on TruTV for a interesting view of your fellow citizens.  Abandon ship, abandon ship!

http://www.usmessageboard.com/educa...ew-of-waiting-for-superman-2.html#post3065163
http://www.usmessageboard.com/education-and-history/108215-education-then-and-now.html
http://www.usmessageboard.com/education-and-history/108215-education-then-and-now-2.html#post2074607
http://www.usmessageboard.com/educa...liberals-in-the-classroom-11.html#post1749647
http://www.usmessageboard.com/education/159100-pay-teachers-more.html#post3418935

"*Not surprisingly, in a land where literacy and numeracy are considered virtues, teachers are revered. Teenagers ranked teaching at the top of their list of favorite professions in a recent survey. Far more graduates of upper schools in Finland apply for admission to teacher-training institutes than are accepted.* The overwhelming majority of those who eventually enter the classroom as a teacher make it a lifelong career, even though they are paid no more than their counterparts in other European countries." 

"*At the heart of Finland's stellar reputation is a philosophy completely alien to America. The country of 5.3 million in an area twice the size of Missouri considers education an end in itself - not a means to an end.* It's a deeply rooted value that is reflected in the Ministry of Education and in all 432 municipalities. In sharp contrast, Americans view education as a stepping stone to better-paying jobs or to impress others. The distinction explains why we are obsessed with marquee names, and how we structure, operate and fund schools." Lessons From Finland: The Way to Education Excellence | CommonDreams.org


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## FurthurBB (Jan 7, 2012)

Warrior102 said:


> rdean said:
> 
> 
> > Because Budget Resolution 34 doesn't include detailed breakdowns of Function 500 spending reductions, it's impossible to determine exactly how much of the cuts are proposed to come out of the education budget. Further, the plan itself, in resolution form, does not dictate exact spending levels, but instead sets the maximum amount that can be spent. Congressional committees and floor votes determine the rest.
> ...



Wow!  I am convinced you know something about education


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## FurthurBB (Jan 7, 2012)

syrenn said:


> rdean said:
> 
> 
> > That's it?  Cuts are good if we can figure out ways of denying education to children of illegal immigrants?
> ...



There is not a problem with illegal immigrants in St. Louis City Public schools in Missouri.  They have one of the highest amount per student budget.  They are one of the worst school districts in the country.  This simple thinking on both sides is not going to solve the problem.


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## Skull Pilot (Jan 7, 2012)

We should cut the bloated education bureaucracy by at least 25% by culling overpaid administrators who do not teach.

Let the teachers work 40 hours a week all year round like everyone else and they'll have plenty of time to perform administrative duties


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## FurthurBB (Jan 7, 2012)

westwall said:


> Old Rocks said:
> 
> 
> > rdean said:
> ...



Actually it is a little more complicated than that, but things usually are.


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## FurthurBB (Jan 7, 2012)

whitehall said:


> You can cut funding for education but how does a political party "cut education"? Maybe by hiring lazy  unqualified union teachers?



It is not the unions that produce unqualified teachers.  It is the sudden desire that all teachers have degrees in education instead of in a field.  My best friend wanted to teach ESL classes in Florida and she has a PhD in English, they made her take 20 credit hours of education classes.  So her classes were of course at the graduate level and she said they were so easy, that she has little respect for anyone with an advanced degree in education.  She said high school classes are harder.


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## FurthurBB (Jan 7, 2012)

Quantum Windbag said:


> rdean said:
> 
> 
> > Quantum Windbag said:
> ...



It is funny that you know something that is untrue is a fact because Luxemburg spends the most on primary and secondary education per student and the US is 3rd.  Though we do spend the most per student on university level education.  Oh, well just another indicator of what we can expect from a US education.


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## FurthurBB (Jan 7, 2012)

Skull Pilot said:


> We should cut the bloated education bureaucracy by at least 25% by culling overpaid administrators who do not teach.
> 
> Let the teachers work 40 hours a week all year round like everyone else and they'll have plenty of time to perform administrative duties



So, you want to cut teachers hours, but give them more administrative work?  How is that going to work?


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## Unkotare (Jan 7, 2012)

Skull Pilot said:


> Let the teachers work 40 hours a week all year round like everyone else




They do (the ones worth keeping anyway). Many more than that.


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## Unkotare (Jan 7, 2012)

US higher education is by far the best in the world. What is the key difference between that level and K-12? Competition.


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## Skull Pilot (Jan 7, 2012)

FurthurBB said:


> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> > We should cut the bloated education bureaucracy by at least 25% by culling overpaid administrators who do not teach.
> ...



Where did I say cut teachers' hours.  I said make them work 40 hours a week all year round and cut down the number of overpaid administrators.


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## FurthurBB (Jan 7, 2012)

Skull Pilot said:


> FurthurBB said:
> 
> 
> > Skull Pilot said:
> ...



Yes, so since most teachers work about 80 hours a week and at least 20 during the summer.  You are talking about cutting at least 20 hours.  I thought you said the teachers should do the administrative work.  If not I apologize, but I still don't see what good cutting their hours would do, unless you want no summer school, because they do get paid differently for that, but often times it is not even in their home district since so much summer school has been cut already.


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## Full-Auto (Jan 7, 2012)

FurthurBB said:


> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> > FurthurBB said:
> ...



es, so since most teachers work about 80 hours a week


Was it necessary to lie to make your point?  Now you can be dismissed as a whack job.


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## PrometheusBound (Jan 7, 2012)

Why should the Republicans care?  If people can't afford education, the children of the rich will be the only ones allowed to get ahead.  For 50 years, all the GOPers have wanted to do is set up an unAmerican aristocracy, a country based on birth rather than worth.


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## Unkotare (Jan 7, 2012)

PrometheusBound said:


> Why should the Republicans care?  If people can't afford education, the children of the rich will be the only ones allowed to get ahead.  For 50 years, all the GOPers have wanted to do is set up an unAmerican aristocracy, a country based on birth rather than worth.



Hysterical drama queen loser.


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## Katzndogz (Jan 7, 2012)

The best educational system would be a triage.  Stop treating students equally.  They aren't equal, will never be equal.  It's silly.

Educate the most promising as far as they want to go of whatever background.  After all, it should generally be agreed that for all her money, whatever was spent on Paris Hilton's education was a waste.  Good thing her family paid for it.

The ones who might learn something with some effort but will never rise very far, get a nice education in the basics of whatever they need to know to get Peter Principle'd out,

The rest should be taught how to read, write their names legibly and count up to 20.   They can go to some sort of trade school or learn a craft.  

60 cents of every education dollar should go to the students who would most benefit.  Everything else is a waste of money, time and effort.


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## Skull Pilot (Jan 7, 2012)

FurthurBB said:


> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> > FurthurBB said:
> ...





80 hours a week my ass.

Most teachers I know work during the summer but it ain't teaching.


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## FurthurBB (Jan 8, 2012)

Full-Auto said:


> FurthurBB said:
> 
> 
> > Skull Pilot said:
> ...




No, I was not lying.  Most teachers work 80 hours a week.  I have lots of friends who teach primary and secondary education and I teach at the graduate school level.  Though I have other jobs too, they work at their job at least 80 hours a week, sometimes more depending on what is going on.  I do not work on actual school work any where near that much.  Sometimes it is probably not even 40 hours a week for me.  I would never do what they do.  I can show up at school 15 minutes before I teach, they go to work 2 hours before school starts every day.  I can leave as soon as my office hours or class is over, depending.  They stay until all the after school activities are over at 5:00, some 2 hours after class ended.  Then they have to go home and plan and grade a whole lot more than I ever have to.  I only have to plan at the beginning of the semester, if that because often I teach the same class, and don't have things to grade every single day.  Oh, and my teaching job pays a lot more money.


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## daveman (Jan 8, 2012)

Liberals:  Education isn't working.  We need to spend more money on it.

*Throws money at education*

Liberals:  Education isn't working.  We need to spend more money on it.

*Throws money at education*

Liberals:  Education isn't working.  We need to spend more money on it.

*Throws money at education*

Liberals:  Education isn't working.  We need to spend more money on it.

*Throws money at education*

Conservatives:  Ummm...maybe throwing money at it isn't the solution.

Liberals:  ZOMG!!  Conservatives hate education and want to destroy it!!!


That about cover it?


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## Unkotare (Jan 8, 2012)

FurthurBB said:


> Full-Auto said:
> 
> 
> > FurthurBB said:
> ...




Good teachers work hard, but that is a silly exaggerration.


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## PrometheusBound (Jan 8, 2012)

Yes, and they should use the money to pay the students for their grades.  That would be an effective incentive to develop their talents, not the unnatural one of having unpaid work pay off 10 or 20 years down the line.


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## PrometheusBound (Jan 8, 2012)

Unkotare said:


> PrometheusBound said:
> 
> 
> > Why should the Republicans care?  If people can't afford education, the children of the rich will be the only ones allowed to get ahead.  For 50 years, all the GOPers have wanted to do is set up an unAmerican aristocracy, a country based on birth rather than worth.
> ...



Your drama is boring and has a choir instead of an audience.


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## Unkotare (Jan 8, 2012)

PrometheusBound said:


> Yes, and they should use the money to pay the students for their grades.  That would be an effective incentive to develop their talents, not the unnatural one of having unpaid work pay off 10 or 20 years down the line.



You're a fucking idiot, you lazy piece of shit.


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## Unkotare (Jan 8, 2012)

PrometheusBound said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> > PrometheusBound said:
> ...




Stop trying so hard, everyone will get to know you are a fucking moron in due time.


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## boedicca (Jan 8, 2012)

I'd like the OP to prove the causality of more spending improving the quality of education.  Please start with per pupil spending in the 1960s, adjust for inflation, and compare it to the same statistic today. Then review test and literacy scores.


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## Skull Pilot (Jan 9, 2012)

FurthurBB said:


> Full-Auto said:
> 
> 
> > FurthurBB said:
> ...



Anecdotal and lacking proof.

Show me concrete evidence that most teachers work 80 hours a week.


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## FurthurBB (Jan 9, 2012)

Skull Pilot said:


> FurthurBB said:
> 
> 
> > Full-Auto said:
> ...




It is true it is anecdotal, and I cannot show you concrete proof because it could definitely be different depending on where you live, but you can find out how much the teachers have to work in your district by finding the contract between the teachers union and the school district.  In my school district the contract stipulates that a 1-5 school teacher in the district must arrive at school by 7:30 and leave no early than 4:30.  They must attend at least one advanced planning meeting a week lasting 2 hours, and have to officiate at least one after school activity which last 1 1/2 hours two days a week.  So, if they never graded a single homework assignment or planned anything or had any conferences (which of course they would not have a job) that is 50 hours a week.  A middle school teacher has to arrive at school no later than 7:00am and leave no earlier than 3:30, attend at least one advanced planning meeting a week, officiate 1 after school activity, and chaperone 9 after school events a quarter.  It works out again to 50 hours a week actual at school time and the high school has a few more requirements that work out to 55 hours.  There are some other things what has to be done at the end of the school year and at the end of the summer before the kids come back to school, but I did not feel like figuring that out.  So, if you are interested how much a teacher works in your district, you can find out.  I am sure there are probably places online where you can figure out what kind of average times grading takes as well.


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## Skull Pilot (Jan 9, 2012)

FurthurBB said:


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Since you want to stick to anecdotal evidence here,

No teacher I have ever known (counted at about a dozen or more) has ever worked 80 hours a week during the school year.

Now here is some real evidence.  Yes it's from 2005 but it's the first thing that came up on Google.

http://www.manhattan-institute.org/html/cr_50.htm



> Full-time public school teachers work on average 36.5 hours per week during weeks that they are working. By comparison, white-collar workers (excluding sales) work 39.4 hours, and professional specialty and technical workers work 39.0 hours per week. Private school teachers work 38.3 hours per week.



You'll notice the phrase "weeks that they are working" which is taken to mean when school is in session.


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## FurthurBB (Jan 9, 2012)

Skull Pilot said:


> FurthurBB said:
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Actually, I told you to look up the contract between your school district and the teachers union to see how much teachers actually have to work in your school district, which is what I did for mine.  If you are not really interested that is fine.  Also, I did not post a link because I do not want people here to know where I live.


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## Skull Pilot (Jan 10, 2012)

FurthurBB said:


> Skull Pilot said:
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National data was used in the article.

You did say "most teachers" and numbers given would certainly cover Most teachers so I do believe you have been completely debunked here.


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## SayMyName (Jan 11, 2012)

Department of Education funds should be cut, and the Department reduced to what it once was, a section of HUD.

It's not the money, but the commitment of a local community and their values held about the importance of education that make schools great.

Now, it is a feeding trough, with thousands of good programs cut, and thousands implemented that are questionable at best.

Once school becomes a priviledge, not a right, watch how fast discipline improves and academic progress rises.


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