# Is it time for Israel to re-take Gaza?



## Shusha (May 14, 2018)

Yes, I'm being provocative.  (I'm bored with all the ridiculous discussion of people trying to demonize Israel for defending her borders from violent rioters talking about marching to Jerusalem ripping the hearts out of Jews.  Ugh.)

So let's talk about the future of Gaza.  

There are real humanitarian concerns here. There are real security concerns here.  Neither are being addressed by Hamas or the citizens of Gaza.  Can Israel step in?  Should Israel step in?

Now, I'm not necessarily suggesting that Israel incorporate Gaza into Israel.  My thinking is more that if everyone is saying Israel is occupying Gaza anyway -- why doesn't she actually go back to occupying it?  Temporarily.  Preferrably with the support of the at least some of the Gazan people.  Possibly as a Mandate overseeing an economic revival, a re-building of infrastructure, a reduction in violence and a re-education of the next generation.  

Is it possible for Israel to offer some carrots here?  In the form of clean water, improved medical care, economic trade?


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## Tijn Von Ingersleben (May 14, 2018)

Shusha said:


> Is it possible for Israel to offer some carrots here? In the form of clean water, improved medical care, economic trade?


No. That is like buying a purse for a spouse with two black eyes. You are dealing with people (Muslims) who speak about the Crusades like last week's football match.


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## Sixties Fan (May 14, 2018)

Shusha said:


> Yes, I'm being provocative.  (I'm bored with all the ridiculous discussion of people trying to demonize Israel for defending her borders from violent rioters talking about marching to Jerusalem ripping the hearts out of Jews.  Ugh.)
> 
> So let's talk about the future of Gaza.
> 
> ...


1)  Get rid of UNWRA.  The "refugee" issue must be put to rest.

2)  Get rid of the leaders and Iran's influence, plus weapons.

3) Egypt should be involved in getting rid in UNWRA, Iran's influence and all the weapons.  ISIS is also an issue.

4)  Once the main blocks to progress are taken away, then maybe..... after one generation, or two, it will be possible to turn Gaza into a place Arabs will want to turn into an Arab State, where they get to export what they make, live in peace with Israel and Egypt, etc, etc....

5)  Once UNWRA and the leaders are dealt with, one can find out how many in the Strip are actually for living in peace, and put their efforts towards a future without violence towards Jews, Israel and Egypt.
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The UN has already shown itself tho be an failure in wanting to see Gaza or the P A, become self sufficient and stop their war against the Jews and Israel.

Changes over there need to happen as well.


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## Sixties Fan (May 14, 2018)

Tijn Von Ingersleben said:


> Shusha said:
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> > Is it possible for Israel to offer some carrots here? In the form of clean water, improved medical care, economic trade?
> ...


That is another thing that will need to be changed.

Muslim mentality towards the Jews in general.


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## Tijn Von Ingersleben (May 14, 2018)

Sixties Fan said:


> Tijn Von Ingersleben said:
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Never...ever gonna happen. Though they (Jews) are 'people of the book' they do not follow the teachings of Allah's final prophet.


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## BlackFlag (May 14, 2018)

Tijn Von Ingersleben said:


> Sixties Fan said:
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Do Muslims think the Jews are going to burn in hell for eternity or something?


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## Sixties Fan (May 14, 2018)

Tijn Von Ingersleben said:


> Sixties Fan said:
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We do know it is not going to happen. The change in extreme Muslim mentality.

Let us see what getting rid of the Iran threat, more Arab countries having some sort of ties with Israel, etc may do in the future.

Once they can see that they cannot destroy Israel by any means, they may start working on wanting to really build Gaza.


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## Tijn Von Ingersleben (May 14, 2018)

BlackFlag said:


> Tijn Von Ingersleben said:
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No...Muslims believe that on the last day all people will be judged by Allah. Those who will be condemned to hell are those who do not believe in Allah or his messengers...Jesus (Isa) and Moses (Musa) are two of those messengers. This is why Jews and Christians, though not equal to Muslims are still viewed much more favorably than say Buddhists or Hindus who are seen as idol worshipers.


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## fncceo (May 14, 2018)

Annexing Gaza would be like buying a home in Love Canal.  Just not worth the cost of the cleanup.


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## Tijn Von Ingersleben (May 14, 2018)

Sixties Fan said:


> Tijn Von Ingersleben said:
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I think that the hard stance from fellow Sunnis in Saudi is the correct medicine. Israel has proven that they are not averse to cutting deals. They have worked with the Egyptians and the Jordanians. They have also improved their relations with Saudi considerably over the years. With regard to the Palestinians, I can see their argument as well. However, they are in no position to make demands and their continued petulance only exacerbates their strife. A little sugar goes a long way.


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## Penelope (May 14, 2018)

Shusha said:


> Yes, I'm being provocative.  (I'm bored with all the ridiculous discussion of people trying to demonize Israel for defending her borders from violent rioters talking about marching to Jerusalem ripping the hearts out of Jews.  Ugh.)
> 
> So let's talk about the future of Gaza.
> 
> ...



You the jews made Gaza a humanitarian concern. Don't blame them.


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## Shusha (May 14, 2018)

Penelope said:


> You the jews made Gaza a humanitarian concern. Don't blame them.



Not blaming anyone.  Asking who is going to fix it.


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## rylah (May 14, 2018)

Shusha said:


> Yes, I'm being provocative.  (I'm bored with all the ridiculous discussion of people trying to demonize Israel for defending her borders from violent rioters talking about marching to Jerusalem ripping the hearts out of Jews.  Ugh.)
> 
> So let's talk about the future of Gaza.
> 
> ...



Helping Gaza is not like helping Turkish earthquake victims.
When Israel helps Palestinians they make it seem like Israel owes them something, when in reality they're an enemy.

I will just suggest the opposite to balance it out - put an ultimatum on everything provided from or moved through the Israeli side. They can start buying Egyptian dinars for all I know.

There's this book by Daniel Pink about motivation. He included a map answering the question "When to use use rewards/recompense?" 2 flows in the chart, routine versus non-routine tasks. The 2nd flow says:

Focus on building a healthy motivating environment that works long term. Pays fair salary, nurtures autonomy, expertise and purpose. Abstain from rewards such as "if-then" in almost all circumstances.
Think about unsuspected rewards, independent, from the sort "now that...". And remember that such rewards would be more efficient if:
1. They include praises and commentary rather than tangible things that can be spent.
2. They provide useful information and don't constitute an attempt to rule over.

I think this can be materialized better if we think about Gaza as we do about any hostile or enemy nation in the region, or another continent.


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## rylah (May 14, 2018)

Penelope said:


> Shusha said:
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> > Yes, I'm being provocative.  (I'm bored with all the ridiculous discussion of people trying to demonize Israel for defending her borders from violent rioters talking about marching to Jerusalem ripping the hearts out of Jews.  Ugh.)
> ...



Apparently, our cheap falafel is crushing the Gazan economy.
They'll keep using the shekel, and they'll keep whining for Israel to be destroyed, while themselves investing 70% of their economy in it.

Palestinian mentality


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## Shusha (May 14, 2018)

rylah said:


> Shusha said:
> 
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> > Yes, I'm being provocative.  (I'm bored with all the ridiculous discussion of people trying to demonize Israel for defending her borders from violent rioters talking about marching to Jerusalem ripping the hearts out of Jews.  Ugh.)
> ...




Yes.  I just watched Daniel Pink's Ted Talk.  I see what you are saying here.  The if/then is mechanized thinking which requires a clear, measurable goal.  While, it is easy enough for the Israeli side to see that clear, measurable goal (if you stop using violence then Israel will stop responding to you) the Gaza side sees the problem as much more complex.  So isn't it better to motivate them by using non if/then clauses and instead work towards their own self-autonomy and decision-making and then reward them with non-tangible rewards which permit them a purpose.  

We just have to find a way of doing this while ensuring our own security.  

Which makes me wonder if ditching the whole system, Israel coming back into Gaza and saying hey, here's the future -- what do you want it to look like?  isn't just the thing that is needed.


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## Shusha (May 14, 2018)

Penelope said:


> Shusha said:
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So you are agreeing that Israel should take over Gaza.  Yes?


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## Penelope (May 14, 2018)

rylah said:


> Penelope said:
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Most jews I can't stand even some in the Dem party.  Why does Israel still need aid, when are you going to become independent.  Jews lie steal, and Jews killed to take the land in the first place, the real Jews are nothing but Canaanites, you are pathetic.  Jews also used white phosphate bombs in 2014, chemicals.


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## rylah (May 14, 2018)

Shusha said:


> rylah said:
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Dr. Kedar said once 'listen, we don't need You, neither Your 'peace'. Our products are too high in price You don't want that, come back in a decade or two when You have something to suggest us."

Taking a blank position on anything provided by Israel is an option. Why do we even need this?
As for security, it's being handled fine, forces will go in if they shoot rockets. Until then it seems tunnels and other means have turned irrelevant without the need to move the military in.


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## Penelope (May 14, 2018)

Shusha said:


> Yes, I'm being provocative.  (I'm bored with all the ridiculous discussion of people trying to demonize Israel for defending her borders from violent rioters talking about marching to Jerusalem ripping the hearts out of Jews.  Ugh.)
> 
> So let's talk about the future of Gaza.
> 
> ...



I am sick of you jews. I find you pathetic, you screaming anti-Semitism when someone doesn't worship you freaks. you are either so liberal that you steal and well like Weinstein or you are orthodox and still do the *sucking circumcision.
*
Its well known you orthodox  jews are the baby boom and welfare capital of the US.

Is it time to retake Gaza, news flash, you never had Gaza.


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## Sixties Fan (May 14, 2018)

Penelope said:


> rylah said:
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You have SOOOO gotten off the topic.

Why do the Arab countries need aid?
Africa?

Most of the world needs aid.

Israel gives as much or more than it receives.

But, hey, your Jew hatred colors everything you see about Jews and Israel.

So, who cares what you have to say about ending what is happening in Gaza, when YOU do not care.  As you have said absolutely Nothing to help the people in Gaza to put an end to their endless need for aid.

Israel built a country by the sweat of their work.

The Arabs want to steal all of them by murdering all the Jews.

The Jews will continue to choose to live in peace in their own country and attempt to aid the people in Gaza with the tons of trucks which go through every day.  Things which are stolen by Hamas to use for themselves and against Israel.

An end must come to the war from Gaza against Israel which started in 1920.

And of course, all you can do is "Blame the Jews".


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## rylah (May 14, 2018)

I remember reading a post here in the forum suggesting that *"Western Gaza has to take over Eastern Gaza"...

*


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## admonit (May 14, 2018)

Shusha said:


> Penelope said:
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> > You the jews made Gaza a humanitarian concern. Don't blame them.
> ...


Those who created the problem - "the international community".


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## Shusha (May 14, 2018)

Penelope said:


> I am sick of you jews. I find you pathetic, you screaming anti-Semitism when someone doesn't worship you freaks.



Oh wow.  Interesting what comes out of the woodwork.

Let's try this again.  Penny, my OP suggests that Israel has the ability to solve what many consider to be a serious humanitarian crisis in Gaza.  She can provide clean water, electricity, improved health care, technology, economic trade.  As pointed out, she is in no way obliged to provide this.  But she can.  The question on the table is:  Should she?  More specifically, the question on the table is:  If Israel can provide the tools and necessities to end the humanitarian crises in Gaza BUT at the expense of Gaza's self-determination -- should she?


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## RoccoR (May 14, 2018)

RE:   Is it time for Israel to re-take Gaza?
※→   Shusha,  Penelope,  et al,

For the Israelis _(I think)_ they would have to do a Risk Analysis from four aspects:

•  Militarily:
•  Economically:
•  Politically:
•  Probability of Success:​


Shusha said:


> Penelope said:
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> > Shusha said:
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*(COMMENT)*

In very broad (BROAD) brush strokes, this would be the things that Israel, at a minimum, are going to have to study, consider --- have set aside resources for and the military and political will to carry through.

√  Militarily:
•  Cost of continued containment and status quo.
•  Cost of incursion and new high bellegerent effective control.
•  Military Advantage of current position versus a takeover position.​
√  Economically:
•  Cost of rebuilding the Gazan Infrastructure.  Including the cost of destruction and rebuild of critical facilities.
•  Cost to the basic domestic Israeli economy for supporting unproductive Gazans:
■  Retirement/Special Icomefor the poor.
■  Medical costs and medical facility support.
■  Food/Pantry Programs.
■  Education and retraining (hard skill, blue collar, scientific and tecnical).​•  Small and Medium Business start-up Programs.​
√  Politically:
•  World International Consequences.
•  Regional Consequences.
•  Domestic Play.​
√  Probability of Success:
•  Short term, Gazans is making steady progress econlically, meeting political milestones,
building democratic institutions, and standing up security forces.
• Medium term, Gazans providing its own security, and a fully on its way to achieving its economic potential.
• Longer term, the Gaza Strip becomes peaceful well integrated into the international community.​
Unless the Israelis want a repeat of the consequences and results of the 2005 unilateral to withdraw,  THEN, it is going to have to plan for programs in increments of a decade or more.

Most Respectfully,
R


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## Shusha (May 14, 2018)

rylah said:


> I remember reading a post here in the forum suggesting that *"Western Gaza has to take over Eastern Gaza"...
> 
> *



Fair point.


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## Shusha (May 14, 2018)

admonit said:


> Shusha said:
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I agree in principle.  Not sure how we are going to enforce that.


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## Shusha (May 14, 2018)

RoccoR said:


> RE:   Is it time for Israel to re-take Gaza?
> ※→   Shusha,  Penelope,  et al,
> 
> For the Israelis _(I think)_ they would have to do a Risk Analysis from four aspects:
> ...




Thank you for your thoughtful, intelligent reply.  Which of those on your list do you think would be the most challenging for Israel?  The probability of success seems to me the most difficult to judge.  And I think the regional response is most key to success.  But I've been known to be somewhat -- ahem -- optimistic.


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## rylah (May 14, 2018)

The goal is humanitarian crisis in certain Gazan neighborhoods,
or the Gaza-Israel conflict in whole?

RoccoR posted a list of points to consider, I still don't see any benefit for Israel.
I'm open to read about any suggestions looking long-term.

Here're 3 more suggestions:

1. Let Iran take Gaza over.
2. Egypt police of Gaza.
3. UAE.

1st is to destroy, 2nd to forget about it for a while, 3rd sounds like an "out of this world" idea, but might be a potential uplift for the entire region.


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## Hossfly (May 14, 2018)

Penelope said:


> Shusha said:
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> > Yes, I'm being provocative.  (I'm bored with all the ridiculous discussion of people trying to demonize Israel for defending her borders from violent rioters talking about marching to Jerusalem ripping the hearts out of Jews.  Ugh.)
> ...



Quit bitching and complaining and get it fixed in your head that God is behind it all as it is his purpose, but don't make the mistake of blaming Him for anything.


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## RoccoR (May 14, 2018)

RE:   Is it time for Israel to re-take Gaza?
※→   Shusha,  Penelope,  et al,

I think each has a show-stopping consequence that would render any significant investment, into the Gaza Strip, too risky to attempt.



Shusha said:


> Which of those on your list do you think would be the most challenging for Israel?


*(COMMENT)*

As we all know, the Hostile Arab Palestinians _(in all their various manifestations)_ are prone to suicide.  And so, in any of the supporting initiatives to drag the Gazans into the 21st Century as a productive culture, there is going to be elements that will be willing to spend their own life to disrupt.  But that is only part of the equation.

The Regional Political Influences may not even allow such an effort.  So paranoid are some of these powers, in the Arab world, that external political pressures and criticisms, the Israelis will not be able to sift the wheat from the chaff.  That failure will lead to another, which will lead to yet another, and another, until the entire project is in cascade failure.

Most Respectfully,
R


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## IsaacNewton (May 14, 2018)

Shusha said:


> Yes, I'm being provocative.  (I'm bored with all the ridiculous discussion of people trying to demonize Israel for defending her borders from violent rioters talking about marching to Jerusalem ripping the hearts out of Jews.  Ugh.)
> 
> So let's talk about the future of Gaza.
> 
> ...



Is it time for Russia to retake Eastern Europe. Is it time for Iraq to take Kuwait again. Is it time for Argentina to retake the Falklands. 

The idiocy of the knuckledraggers.


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## Hollie (May 14, 2018)

RoccoR said:


> RE:   Is it time for Israel to re-take Gaza?
> ※→   Shusha,  Penelope,  et al,
> 
> I think each has a show-stopping consequence that would render any significant investment, into the Gaza Strip, too risky to attempt.
> ...



I think a cascading failure is a near certainty. First, If we drill down on societal structure of the Islamic Middle East, we see those societies are subservient to the all-consuming, totalitarian politico-religious ideology of Islam. What strikes me is just how fiercely resistant that politico-religious ideology actually is to any sort of revision or reform. This is its most intractable attribute toward compatibility with the rest of the modern, relevant first world. If we listen to so many of islam's Sheiks, Emirs, Mullocrats and Clerics, they tell us in clear and uncompromising terms that islam _cannot_ be reformed. They also tell us in no uncertain terms that Islamism is to be the only legitimate law for all of mankind, at all times and in all places. By words and actions, Moslems tell us that their war on the part of humanity not Islamic or subservient to Islamism and which began when the barbarians spilled out of Peninsula after the death of the religions inventor is as relevant now as it was in the 7th century.


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## Hollie (May 14, 2018)

IsaacNewton said:


> Shusha said:
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> > Yes, I'm being provocative.  (I'm bored with all the ridiculous discussion of people trying to demonize Israel for defending her borders from violent rioters talking about marching to Jerusalem ripping the hearts out of Jews.  Ugh.)
> ...



Although, you might want to acknowledge that none of your comparisons relate a fascist, virulently hostile politico religious ideology with a written manifesto calling for the annihilation of a competing religious group.


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## Kondor3 (May 14, 2018)

Tijn Von Ingersleben said:


> Shusha said:
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> > Is it possible for Israel to offer some carrots here? In the form of clean water, improved medical care, economic trade?
> ...


Well, yeah, that was the pinnacle of their Glory Days... long ago, in a galaxy far, far away.


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## P F Tinmore (May 14, 2018)

Shusha said:


> Yes, I'm being provocative.  (I'm bored with all the ridiculous discussion of people trying to demonize Israel for defending her borders from violent rioters talking about marching to Jerusalem ripping the hearts out of Jews.  Ugh.)
> 
> So let's talk about the future of Gaza.
> 
> ...


If I remember correctly, after Israel's 2014 turkey shoot in Gaza, there was a ceasefire that was supposed to be followed by a long term truce and billions in reconstruction.

What happened to that?


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## Sixties Fan (May 14, 2018)

P F Tinmore said:


> Shusha said:
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> > Yes, I'm being provocative.  (I'm bored with all the ridiculous discussion of people trying to demonize Israel for defending her borders from violent rioters talking about marching to Jerusalem ripping the hearts out of Jews.  Ugh.)
> ...


Ask all the Arab and other countries what happened to the "Billions" they promised.

Next, ask Hamas where the money they did manage to get is stashed.

Next, Look at all the weapons, etc Hamas has been able to buy with Iran's money.

Long term truce is for those who are not out to destroy a sovereign country and kill all of its people.

Muslims do not know the meaning of "Long Term truce"


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## P F Tinmore (May 14, 2018)

Sixties Fan said:


> P F Tinmore said:
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Hogwash, Hamas always honored ceasefires. It was Israel who always violated them.


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## Sixties Fan (May 14, 2018)

P F Tinmore said:


> Sixties Fan said:
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Sure, Hamas honored the ceasefires just as their Warlord in the 7th century did.

And we all know how that history went.

Time to put an end to Hamas and all the terrorists in Gaza.

Free Gaza from Terrorism and let the people be free!!!!


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## RoccoR (May 14, 2018)

RE  Is it time for Israel to re-take Gaza?
※→  Sixties Fan, et al,

As for how very much I would like to say this posting is a 
, I know that Israel _(nor any or Israels advocates or allies)_ is really going to put that crutch away.



Sixties Fan said:


> 1)  Get rid of UNWRA.  The "refugee" issue must be put to rest.


*(COMMENT)*

In order for the Arab Palestinian to keep and perpetuate the status of "Refugee," the two foundational principles that must remain intact are:

•  The Inheritance Rule.
•  The Citizenship Rule.​
Both of these rules are so fundamental to the capture of Middle East Peace, that any reform would undermine the ability for mediators and peace brokers, and erode confidence between the all the complaints and Israel _(the principle parties to the negotiations for peace)_.

Most Respectfully,
R


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## Coyote (May 14, 2018)

Shusha said:


> Yes, I'm being provocative.  (I'm bored with all the ridiculous discussion of people trying to demonize Israel for defending her borders from violent rioters talking about marching to Jerusalem ripping the hearts out of Jews.  Ugh.)
> 
> So let's talk about the future of Gaza.
> 
> ...


Nothing else is working...they would need to offer a long term plan...with a goal at the end.  And get rid of Hamas.


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## Coyote (May 14, 2018)

Sixties Fan said:


> Tijn Von Ingersleben said:
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And vice versa.


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## Billo_Really (May 14, 2018)

Shusha said:


> Yes, I'm being provocative.  (I'm bored with all the ridiculous discussion of people trying to demonize Israel for defending her borders from violent rioters talking about marching to Jerusalem ripping the hearts out of Jews.  Ugh.)
> 
> So let's talk about the future of Gaza.
> 
> ...


Can you be any more evil?  End the blockade. End the occupation.  You're not defending anything.  You're the aggressor.  An occupational force, cannot claim self defense.  Stop dehumanizing the Pals.  You are not the victims.  You are the bad guys.


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## Billo_Really (May 14, 2018)

Sixties Fan said:


> We do know it is not going to happen. The change in extreme Muslim mentality.
> 
> Let us see what getting rid of the Iran threat, more Arab countries having some sort of ties with Israel, etc may do in the future.
> 
> Once they can see that they cannot destroy Israel by any means, they may start working on wanting to really build Gaza.


They can't build anything in Gaza, because you fuckers won't let any building materials in to the area.

And stop trying to provoke Iran into a war.


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## Sixties Fan (May 14, 2018)

Coyote said:


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Sure thing.

Jews have kept Muslims under oppression and as dhimmies for 1300 years, attacking them, stealing from them, murdering them, so on and so forth.

Jews invaded Arab Muslims or Christian lands for the past 1400 years.

Jews expelled Arab Muslims and Christians from their homes for
the past 1400 years.


It would truly help if people would learn what Islam is.  What Islam thinks.  And what Islam wants.


Who is up for it?


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## Billo_Really (May 14, 2018)

Sixties Fan said:


> Sure thing.
> 
> Jews have kept Muslims under oppression and as dhimmies for 1300 years, attacking them, stealing from them, murdering them, so on and so forth.
> 
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Judaism is not Zionism.


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## Coyote (May 14, 2018)

Sixties Fan said:


> Coyote said:
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Look at the attitudes of many here towards Muslims,  and look at Israeli public opinion polls on Palestinians.  it needs to work both ways,  likewise if you want to understand Islam you should not depend on anti Islam sources.  I do not go to Stormfront if I want to learn about Jews.


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## Sixties Fan (May 14, 2018)

Billo_Really said:


> Sixties Fan said:
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> > We do know it is not going to happen. The change in extreme Muslim mentality.
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Iran has been stopped from wanting a war.  So has Hezbollah, by the way.

Here is the nothing which is being allowed to be built in Gaza:

'Blue Beach' offers Gazans a glimpse of the good life

Gaza Strip luxury hotel cost £29m to build but has no guests who want to stay | Daily Mail Online

Gazans excited over territory’s new indoor mall


Another Luxury Mall Opens its Doors in Gaza


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## Sixties Fan (May 14, 2018)

Billo_Really said:


> Sixties Fan said:
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You have shown how much you know about either.

"Nothing"


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## Sixties Fan (May 14, 2018)

Coyote said:


> Sixties Fan said:
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We do not have an attitude about Muslims. 

Islam is self explanatory:

Submit or die.

Jews spent 1300 years under Islamic control.  They know very well what groups of Muslims like the ones in Gaza want from Jews:

"Drop dead".

It has never been the same about Jews towards the Muslims, whoever they may be, which over a Million Muslims living in Israel, and Zero living in most Muslim countries goes to show.

If Jews/Israel felt the same way as the other side does, there would be ZERO food, medicine, etc going into Gaza.  Zero.

Because that is exactly what Hamas, Jordan and others would have done.  Actually tried to do during the war in 1948 and did between 1920 and 1948.

Israel allows all religions to go to the Temple Mount.  The Muslims only allowed some Muslims to go to the Temple Mount between 1948 and 1967.

Facts are important.  They do not change.


There is no way to compare what Muslims have done and continue to do in order to take away Israel from the Jews, and all that Israel has done to make Muslim's lives better.

Who in their right mind allows the enemy into their country for jobs, health care and education?

Israel does.

There is no going into Gaza and Areas A and B for Jews.  They get killed at first site.

Muslims get jobs, etc in Israel.

Jews get kidnappeed, murdered in Gaza and Areas A and B, if they ever enter by mistake.


 Enough of this endless attempt at comparison between Muslims and Jews.


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## Billo_Really (May 14, 2018)

Sixties Fan said:


> Iran has been stopped from wanting a war.  So has Hezbollah, by the way.
> 
> Here is the nothing which is being allowed to be built in Gaza:
> 
> ...


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## Billo_Really (May 14, 2018)

Sixties Fan said:


> You have shown how much you know about either.
> 
> "Nothing"


And you have shown to be an inhuman scumbag who relishes in spilling Gazan blood.


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## RoccoR (May 14, 2018)

RE:  Is it time for Israel to re-take Gaza?
※→  Billo_Really, et al,

Who tells you this crap.



Billo_Really said:


> You're the aggressor.


*(COMMENT)*

I think you are trying to re-define the definition of "Aggressor" just solely to fit your argument.

Aggression is the use of armed force by a State against the sovereignty, territorial integrity or political independence of another State, 

-----------------------------------------  or  ----------------------------------------- ​In any other manner inconsistent with the Charter of the United Nations, as set out in this Definition. 
*SOURCE:*  Article 1, *A/RES/29/3314 (XXIX)* Definition of Aggression​
The use of the term "Aggressor" implies one state against another state.  

*(QUESTION)*

State against State:  What "STATE" used an armed force against what "STATE?"
When did the conflict begin?



Billo_Really said:


> An occupational force, cannot claim self-defense.  Stop dehumanizing the Pals.  You are not the victims.  You are the bad guys.


*(COMMENT)*

"Nothing in the present Charter of the United Nations shall impair the inherent right of individual or collective self-defence if an armed attack occurs against a Member of the United Nations."

Since the time of its independence, Israel has been locked in conflict with one Arab entity or another. 

Israel has made peace with two neighboring Arab States and has established permanent International boundaries.  Israel is currently in a dormant period under the temporary suspension of hostilities by agreement with two other neighboring states.

Israel has not invaded Palestine.

Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## Shusha (May 14, 2018)

Billo_Really said:


> Sixties Fan said:
> 
> 
> > We do know it is not going to happen. The change in extreme Muslim mentality.
> ...



Oh please.  They can't build anything in Gaza except 15 million dollars worth of tunnels.


----------



## admonit (May 15, 2018)

Shusha said:


> admonit said:
> 
> 
> > Shusha said:
> ...


The circumstances are going to enforce that. "the international community" cannot endlessly feed rapidly growing Palestinian population.


----------



## Billo_Really (May 15, 2018)

Shusha said:


> Oh please.  They can't build anything in Gaza except 15 million dollars worth of tunnels.


They wouldn't need the tunnels if you end the illegal and immoral blockade.

*150 + International Legal Experts: Israel Has Committed War Crimes*​


----------



## Sixties Fan (May 15, 2018)

Billo_Really said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > Oh please.  They can't build anything in Gaza except 15 million dollars worth of tunnels.
> ...


----------



## Billo_Really (May 15, 2018)

Sixties Fan said:


>


What is your point?


----------



## Sixties Fan (May 15, 2018)

Billo_Really said:


> Sixties Fan said:
> 
> 
> >
> ...



The point is:

You are one of the biggest suckers of the BDS movement.


----------



## Billo_Really (May 15, 2018)

Israel will not allow Hamas to be peaceful.

_[In 2005] Hamas continued to gain council seats in further municipal elections in May. *But rather than encouraging Hamas’s engagement in the political process, Israel continued to seek to isolate the group*. Instead of encouraging Hamas to moderate its behavior, *Israel continued to attempt to provoke the group into a violent response.* Israel sent the message to Hamas that its steps towards moderation and political engagement would bear no fruit. When Hamas cleaned the streets, Israeli bulldozers and tanks destroyed them, and when Hamas erected streetlights, Israeli soldiers shot them out._​


----------



## Sixties Fan (May 15, 2018)

Billo_Really said:


> Israel will not allow Hamas to be peaceful.
> 
> _[In 2005] Hamas continued to gain council seats in further municipal elections in May. *But rather than encouraging Hamas’s engagement in the political process, Israel continued to seek to isolate the group*. Instead of encouraging Hamas to moderate its behavior, *Israel continued to attempt to provoke the group into a violent response.* Israel sent the message to Hamas that its steps towards moderation and political engagement would bear no fruit. When Hamas cleaned the streets, Israeli bulldozers and tanks destroyed them, and when Hamas erected streetlights, Israeli soldiers shot them out._​


More from the BDS sucker.


----------



## Billo_Really (May 15, 2018)

Sixties Fan said:


> The point is:
> 
> You are one of the biggest suckers of the BDS movement.


And why is that?


----------



## Sixties Fan (May 15, 2018)

Billo_Really said:


> Sixties Fan said:
> 
> 
> > The point is:
> ...


One cannot lead a blind man to water.


----------



## Billo_Really (May 15, 2018)

Sixties Fan said:


> More from the BDS sucker.


That's all you got is namecalling.

BTW, Israel doesn't allow shit for medical treatment.

*ISRAEL: JOINT STATEMENT: RECORD-LOW IN GAZA MEDICAL PERMITS; 54 DIED IN 2017 AWAITING ISRAELI PERMIT*​


----------



## Billo_Really (May 15, 2018)

Sixties Fan said:


> One cannot lead a blind man to water.


Little whiny Israeli's can't take the criticism.

*Israel: Decision to expel HRW country director exposes growing intolerance of criticism*
​Why?  Because you know you are wrong.


----------



## Sixties Fan (May 15, 2018)

Billo_Really said:


> Sixties Fan said:
> 
> 
> > More from the BDS sucker.
> ...


Just because Israel did not allow as many permits for security reasons, does not mean that there is no medical treatment at all as you keep attempting to imply.

Less is not the same as nothing.

Israel does not have to give ANY medical treatment at all, jobs or allow those who do not live in Israel to come for education.

But it does.

And it will  continue to close its borders whenever Hamas or Fatah choose to incite its citizens to attack anyone, Jews, Muslims, Cristians, Druze in Israel or in Judea or Samaria.


----------



## Sixties Fan (May 15, 2018)

Billo_Really said:


> Sixties Fan said:
> 
> 
> > One cannot lead a blind man to water.
> ...


All you are doing is telling us that indeed you are a member of the BDS organization.

All you do is post their talking points against Israel, written or said by those who wish to destroy that country and give it to the Arab Muslims.


----------



## Penelope (May 15, 2018)

Sixties Fan said:


> Billo_Really said:
> 
> 
> > Shusha said:
> ...



That video made me feel very sorry that the Palestinians having to go that route, they are trapped like caged birds that just want to live.


----------



## Penelope (May 15, 2018)

Shusha said:


> Billo_Really said:
> 
> 
> > Sixties Fan said:
> ...



That is what you have condemned them too, travel in the tunnels as the IDF is watching every move they make.


----------



## Sixties Fan (May 15, 2018)

Penelope said:


> Sixties Fan said:
> 
> 
> > Billo_Really said:
> ...


By all means, feel sorry for all the Arabs who are stuck with Hamas as their leaders.

The leaders who instead of taking all of Gaza, as given to them in 2005, and 2007 by Israel and the elections they had.....
chose to continue the Husseini clan's Jihad against the Jews having any sovereignty over their own ancient homeland, simply because that clan believes that all land conquered by Muslims must remain in Muslim hands.

But....by all means....do not bother with the details.


----------



## rylah (May 15, 2018)

Penelope said:


> Sixties Fan said:
> 
> 
> > Billo_Really said:
> ...



I'm not sure suicidal maniacs value life...


----------



## Penelope (May 15, 2018)

Jordan, under the leadership of His Majesty King Abdullah, has always stressed that Jerusalem’s fate should be decided as part of the final-status negotiations.

*As part of the Hashemite custodianship over Islamic and Christian holy sites in Jerusalem, the statement said, Jordan will continue to exert political, diplomatic and legal efforts to limit the consequences of the resolution and to affirm the eternal and immortal right of Muslims and Christians in the Holy City.*

Earlier in the day, Minister of State for Media Affairs Mohammad Momani stressed in a statement that the opening of the US embassy in Jerusalem and Washington’s recognition of the city as the capital of Israel represent a clear breach to the UN convention and all relevant international legitimacy resolutions, especially Resolution 478. 

Momani, who is also the government spokesperson, highlighted that all UN resolutions stress that East Jerusalem is an occupied land and that the city’s fate is a final status issue.

The minister said that Jordan is still committed to its unaltered stance that rejects the US decision and considers it null and void, adding that the Kingdom, along with most countries, condemns the decision, especially since 128 countries voted against it in the UN General Assembly and Security Council.

He said that East Jerusalem is the capital of the future independent Palestinian state and it is the key to peace.

Relocation of US embassy to Jerusalem jeopardises peace — King

Jordan is not on the Israel side.


----------



## Sixties Fan (May 15, 2018)

Penelope said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > Billo_Really said:
> ...


The only thing they ever wanted from the tunnels, even out of Egypt, was to smuggle weapons to attack Israel and the Jews.

They could have built another Arab State, like Jordan did, but chose to attempt to destroy Israel instead.

--------
The Egyptian army says it has destroyed nearly one-thousand 430 tunnels during the past 18 months. The tunnels are used by Palestinians to bring in supplies to the besieged Gaza Strip. Dozens of people, mostly Palestinians, have lost their lives during the tunnel destructions which have intensified since the 2013 ouster of former president Mohamed Morsi. The Egyptian army claims that these tunnels were used to smuggle weapons to militants in the Sinai Peninsula. But according to a report by the World Food Program, the tunnels represent the main supply route for the much-needed goods in Gaza. The coastal strip has been under the Israeli air, sea and land blockade since 2007. The Egyptian cabinet has approved a law which bans digging or using tunnels for communicating with or supplying Palestinians with goods.


----------



## rylah (May 15, 2018)

Penelope said:


> Jordan is not on the Israel side.



Jordan still exists because of Israel.
You're way off topic.


----------



## Sixties Fan (May 15, 2018)

Penelope said:


> Jordan, under the leadership of His Majesty King Abdullah, has always stressed that Jerusalem’s fate should be decided as part of the final-status negotiations.
> 
> *As part of the Hashemite custodianship over Islamic and Christian holy sites in Jerusalem, the statement said, Jordan will continue to exert political, diplomatic and legal efforts to limit the consequences of the resolution and to affirm the eternal and immortal right of Muslims and Christians in the Holy City.*
> 
> ...


We are not discussing Jerusalem on this thread.


----------



## Humanity (May 15, 2018)

Shusha said:


> Can Israel step in? Should Israel step in?



Israel should step out.

Step out of all occupied territory.

Israel should step in.

Step into the 21st century and join the rest of the international community!


----------



## Sixties Fan (May 15, 2018)

Humanity said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > Can Israel step in? Should Israel step in?
> ...


Such a Jihadist dream.


----------



## Humanity (May 15, 2018)

Sixties Fan said:


> Humanity said:
> 
> 
> > Shusha said:
> ...



You will probably find that is every ones dream except Israel and the US!


----------



## Penelope (May 15, 2018)

What Trump's Jerusalem Decision Has Wrought
------------------------------------------------------------------------

If only they would behave themselves in Gaza, the Israelites would welcome them with open arms and make them citizens and they could have health ins, clean water and sewage plant, schools, etc.  just like the west bank residents do.


----------



## rylah (May 15, 2018)

Penelope said:


> View attachment 193625
> 
> What Trump's Jerusalem Decision Has Wrought
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> ...



sheer lunacy.


----------



## rylah (May 15, 2018)

Humanity said:


> Step into the 21st century and join the rest of the international community!



We're pretty much at the forefront of the 21st century.
International community likes to blame Israel for the things they do themselves.

That must be a new thing...


----------



## Coyote (May 15, 2018)

Sixties Fan said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Sixties Fan said:
> ...


This an example of exactly what I mean, stopping Hate is a two way street.  It means confronting the distortions, false memes and mischarecterizations of the other.

Arab Israeli’s suffer discrimination when it comes to getting jobs in Israel by the way.


----------



## ForeverYoung436 (May 15, 2018)

Coyote said:


> Sixties Fan said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...




If you're talking about Israel proper, that's not what I've seen there.  There are Arab doctors and lawyers and professors.  Have you ever been to Israel?


----------



## Billo_Really (May 15, 2018)

Sixties Fan said:


> Just because Israel did not allow as many permits for security reasons, does not mean that there is no medical treatment at all as you keep attempting to imply.
> 
> Less is not the same as nothing.
> 
> ...


Israel won't even allow Palestinian medical staff into Gaza to treat the wounded, yet you expect people to believe they'll let the wounded into Israel for treatment?  Get real.


----------



## Billo_Really (May 15, 2018)

Sixties Fan said:


> All you are doing is telling us that indeed you are a member of the BDS organization.
> 
> All you do is post their talking points against Israel, written or said by those who wish to destroy that country and give it to the Arab Muslims.


BDS is a beautiful thing.  It holding Israel accountable for its crimes against humanity.  You don't deserve a country!


----------



## Billo_Really (May 15, 2018)

Sixties Fan said:


> By all means, feel sorry for all the Arabs who are stuck with Hamas as their leaders.
> 
> The leaders who instead of taking all of Gaza, as given to them in 2005, and 2007 by Israel and the elections they had.....
> chose to continue the Husseini clan's Jihad against the Jews having any sovereignty over their own ancient homeland, simply because that clan believes that all land conquered by Muslims must remain in Muslim hands.
> ...


You don't respect sovereignty and its none of your goddamn  business who Gazans choose to represent them.


----------



## Billo_Really (May 15, 2018)

rylah said:


> I'm not sure suicidal maniacs value life...


Israel doesn't.


----------



## Billo_Really (May 15, 2018)

Sixties Fan said:


> The only thing they ever wanted from the tunnels, even out of Egypt, was to smuggle weapons to attack Israel and the Jews.
> 
> They could have built another Arab State, like Jordan did, but chose to attempt to destroy Israel instead.
> 
> ...


You are such a liar.  Israel is actively trying to destroy all the Palestinians in Gaza and you're trying to act like Israel is the one being attacked.


----------



## P F Tinmore (May 15, 2018)

Coyote said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > Yes, I'm being provocative.  (I'm bored with all the ridiculous discussion of people trying to demonize Israel for defending her borders from violent rioters talking about marching to Jerusalem ripping the hearts out of Jews.  Ugh.)
> ...


Hamas is a creature of conflict. If there is a peaceful solution it will lose its reason for being.


----------



## P F Tinmore (May 15, 2018)

Billo_Really said:


> Sixties Fan said:
> 
> 
> > The only thing they ever wanted from the tunnels, even out of Egypt, was to smuggle weapons to attack Israel and the Jews.
> ...


----------



## Sixties Fan (May 15, 2018)

Coyote said:


> Sixties Fan said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...


Arab Israelis are not the subject of the discussion.
There are many Jewish Israelis who are unemployed and poor in Israel, as well.

Israel does allow thousands of Arabs from the P. A. areas to come into Israel for jobs they cannot get in the P. A. , or the P. A won't give them.

It used to be the same with Arabs from Gaza until Hamas took over and has done nothing but attack Israel.

Thousands of Arabs from Gaza are still allowed into Israel for medical care.

It is not a vice-versa situation as no Jews are allowed to work, or get health care or study in Gaza, or Areas A and B of the P. A. 

Just how do you propose for the Arabs to confront the Memes and distortions which do come from that side, based on Islamic teachings.

They do not get their ideas about Israel and the Jews from Israeli or Jewish behavior, and were chanting "Death to the Jews" long before Israel achieved Independence.

Many Muslims do not follow what Islam teaches about the Jews, and want peace with the Jews.  

How to extend that to the leaders of the Muslim countries so that they will stop teaching their children and future generations to hate and kill Jews?


----------



## P F Tinmore (May 15, 2018)

Sixties Fan said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Sixties Fan said:
> ...


Nice load of crap.


----------



## RoccoR (May 15, 2018)

RE:  Is it time for Israel to re-take Gaza?
※→  Humanity, et al,

This conflict is not about the rights and soverenty of the Arab Palestinian people; and never has been. 

•  The actual Issues raised by the Arab Palestinian are used as platforms to rally support for the basic themes of destroying Israel.  The leadership of the Arab Palestinians, is not concerned about the health and welfare of their people.  Its sole purpose and sole source of authority for the Arab Palestinian strategies and objectives is outwardly implied to be Islam. But its true nature mask for nationalism is wealth and power.

•  The principles by which the Israelis rally around are intented to promote the consturct of a Jewish National Home surrounded buy a defendable border to protect the citizenry from the threat of an external assault by hostile elements associated with the Arab League; which has been so immediately obvious and demonstrated.  The Jewish people have the right to realize their self-determination in the land of Israel.​
The key, in a word, for the Israelis would be "sovereignty." 


_“The Arabs can fight, and lose, and return to fight another day. Israel can only lose once.”_
_≈≈≈≈ Golda Meir, Former Prime Minister of Israel (RIP)_​


Humanity said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > Can Israel step in? Should Israel step in?
> ...


*(COMMENT)*

You say:  "Occupied Territory."  Israel has no footprint in the Gaza Strip.  Israel, like so many other countries, reserves the right to control its borders and immigration relative to Gazan.

*Application of the Convention*
•  ARTICLE 2 * [ Link ]*  • 
Convention (IV) relative to:  (AKA:  GCIV) 
The Protection of Civilian Persons in Time of War. Geneva, 12 August 1949.

In addition to the provisions which shall be implemented in peacetime, the present Convention shall apply to all cases of declared war or of any other armed conflict which may arise *between two or more of the High Contracting Parties*, even if the state of war is not recognized by one of them.
The Convention shall also apply to all cases of partial or total occupation of the territory of a *High Contracting Party*, even if the said occupation meets with no armed resistance.
Although one of the Powers in conflict may not be a party to the present Convention, the Powers who are parties thereto shall remain bound by it in their mutual relations. They shall furthermore be bound by the Convention in relation to the said Power, if the latter accepts and applies the provisions thereof.​
It is important to notice that "occupation revolves around partial or total occupation of the territory of a *High Contracting Party*; which the Arab Palestinians were not.

Your concept --- "Step out of all occupied territory" --- is not valid.  However, I'm not so naive to NOT understand that your intent is to have the Israelis withdraw from the _(formerly occupied Jordanian territory before the recognition of the Palestiian State)_ West Bank.   However, this issue was resolved by the Treaty of Peace between the High Contracting Powers.

The subtext to the reasoning is to further the protection of the National Hme Sovereignty:



 ​
Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## Issa (May 15, 2018)

Shusha said:


> Yes, I'm being provocative.  (I'm bored with all the ridiculous discussion of people trying to demonize Israel for defending her borders from violent rioters talking about marching to Jerusalem ripping the hearts out of Jews.  Ugh.)
> 
> So let's talk about the future of Gaza.
> 
> ...


What a fucking imperialist blood thirsty mentality. You represent the filth of humanity ....you are not happy with all the damage has been doing to the defenseless Palestinians you want more blood you fucktard ? European settlers style or nazi style ?


----------



## P F Tinmore (May 15, 2018)

RoccoR said:


> Since the time of its independence, Israel has been locked in conflict with one Arab entity or another.


You didn't mention that Israel was created inside Palestine. That is the reason for the conflict.


----------



## DOTR (May 15, 2018)

Tijn Von Ingersleben said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > Is it possible for Israel to offer some carrots here? In the form of clean water, improved medical care, economic trade?
> ...



  Part of the lie told to them by western liberals. The Muslims started the crusades and lost. Still pissed about it and trying to restart them. Only now the west is being attacked from within and not so able to defend itself.


----------



## montelatici (May 15, 2018)

RoccoR said:


> RE:  Is it time for Israel to re-take Gaza?
> ※→  Humanity, et al,
> 
> This conflict is not about the rights and soverenty of the Arab Palestinian people; and never has been.
> ...



You are one of the most disgusting of the posters here. You post BS and propaganda that your pea brain dreams up.

You are posting bullshit the International Court of Justice has determined that Israel is still still occupying Gaza using as precedence the Nuremburg trials, "Hostages" case.  Case closed.

"26. Israel maintains that following the 2005 disengagement, it is no longer an occupying power in Gaza as it does not exercise effective control over the area.

27. However, the prevalent view within the international community is that Israel remains an occupying power in Gaza despite the 2005 disengagement. In general, this view is based on the scope and degree of control that Israel has retained over the territory of Gaza following the 2005 disengagement – including, inter alia, Israel’s exercise of control over border crossings, the territorial sea adjacent to the Gaza Strip, and the airspace of Gaza; its periodic military incursions within Gaza; its enforcement of no-go areas within Gaza near the border where Israeli settlements used to be; and its regulation of the local monetary market based on the Israeli currency and control of taxes and customs duties. The retention of such competences by Israel over the territory of Gaza even after the 2005 disengagement overall supports the conclusion that the authority retained by Israel amounts to effective control.

28. Although it no longer maintains a military presence in Gaza, Israel has not only shown the ability to conduct incursions into Gaza at will, but also expressly reserved the right to do so as required by military necessity. This consideration is potentially significant considering that there is support in international case law for the conclusion that it is not a prerequisite that a State maintain continuous presence in a territory in order to qualify as an occupying power. In particular, the ICTY has held that the law of occupation would also apply to areas where a state possesses “the capacity to send troops within a reasonable time to make the authority of the occupying power felt.” In this respect, it is also noted that the geographic proximity of the Gaza Strip to Israel potentially facilitates the ability of Israel to exercise effective control over the territory, despite the lack of a continuous military presence.

29. Overall, there is a reasonable basis upon which to *conclude that Israel continues to be an occupying power in Gaza despite the 2005 disengagement. The Office has therefore proceeded on the basis that the situation in Gaza can be considered within the framework of an international armed conflict in view of the continuing military occupation by Israel."

Opinio Juris  » Blog Archive  The OTP Concludes Israel Is Still Occupying Gaza - Opinio Juris*


----------



## P F Tinmore (May 15, 2018)

RoccoR said:


> RE:  Is it time for Israel to re-take Gaza?
> ※→  Billo_Really, et al,
> 
> Who tells you this crap.
> ...


Colonization and occupation are inherently aggressive.


----------



## Tijn Von Ingersleben (May 15, 2018)

DOTR said:


> Tijn Von Ingersleben said:
> 
> 
> > Shusha said:
> ...


Yes they DID start the crusades.


----------



## Humanity (May 15, 2018)

rylah said:


> We're pretty much at the forefront of the 21st century.



"forefront"?

Barbarians have no place in the 21st century fool!


----------



## Humanity (May 15, 2018)

RoccoR said:


> Israel has no footprint in the Gaza Strip



Israel does not need a "footprint" in Gaza to occupy it!



RoccoR said:


> Israel, like so many other countries, reserves the right to control its borders and immigration



Reserves the right to control its borders and Gazas.

Nice!


----------



## DOTR (May 15, 2018)

Tijn Von Ingersleben said:


> DOTR said:
> 
> 
> > Tijn Von Ingersleben said:
> ...



  Thank God for Charles  Martel. Muslims had raped, pillaged, slaughtered and conquered across North Africa, the mid east, southern Europe and had made their way deep into France and were on the verge of wiping out Christianity. Until they ran into "The Hammer" Martel.
   And the long push back started leaving western marxists and liberals crying until this day. Centuries later the Christian monarchs Ferdinand and Isabella reconquered Spain in 1492 and it wasn't until  1683 that the Christian King John III defeated the last of them at Vienna.
   The Muslims slunk off after that ass kicking and hunkered down to wait on their next best chance...Barack Hussein Obama.


----------



## dannyboys (May 15, 2018)

Sixty years ago I was watching desperate pleas to send money to desperate starving people in Africa. Yesterday I saw the exact same type add.
Same with the Arab/Jew centuries old war.
Nothing ever changes except the players.


----------



## rylah (May 15, 2018)

Humanity said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> > We're pretty much at the forefront of the 21st century.
> ...








_*
"Barbarians have no place in the 21st century fool!" *_

Wonder what it means regarding your Jihadi heroes in Gaza?


----------



## rylah (May 15, 2018)

Billo_Really said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> > I'm not sure suicidal maniacs value life...
> ...








Q. Are You whining because not all of Your Jihadis got their wedding ceremonies?


----------



## Shusha (May 15, 2018)

Humanity said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > Can Israel step in? Should Israel step in?
> ...



Um.  You DO realize that it is Gaza attempting to breach Israel's border, right?  Not the other way around.


----------



## montelatici (May 15, 2018)

Gazans are trying to go home.


----------



## DrLove (May 15, 2018)

No - It is time for Bibi to stop acting like an entitled Barbarian


----------



## Sixties Fan (May 15, 2018)

DrLove said:


> No - It is time for Bibi to stop acting like an entitled Barbarian


You are absolutely correct.

The government of Israel must absolutely stop all the trucks which daily go into Gaza to help the population, even though most of it ends up in Hamas' hands.

Also:

Stop allowing Arabs into Israel for any medical issues, jobs, education.

Enough.

Let Gaza build its hospitals and Universities and jobs.

Enough is enough, of the Millions from the US, EU, Qatar, Iran, etc.

The Palestinians say ENOUGH, let us give them what they want.


----------



## Sixties Fan (May 15, 2018)

This is what the Palestinian Leaders in Gaza want.
No more help from the world.

Israel reopens Gaza crossing, but Palestinians turn back some trucks


----------



## DrLove (May 15, 2018)

Sixties Fan said:


> DrLove said:
> 
> 
> > No - It is time for Bibi to stop acting like an entitled Barbarian
> ...



Good idea - As if Israel has ever done anything good for Gaza?

P-L-E-A-S-E


----------



## Shusha (May 15, 2018)

Coyote said:


> Sixties Fan said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...



Coyote, would you please clarify what you see as distortions, false memes and mischaracterizations in this post?  In particular, please point out what you see as capital H Hate.    

Compared to, say something like this:  Israel is actively trying to destroy all the Palestinians in Gaza and you're trying to act like Israel is the one being attacked.


----------



## RoccoR (May 15, 2018)

RE: Is it time for Israel to re-take Gaza?
※→ Humanity, et al,

These are disputes that need to evolve the law. 



Humanity said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > Israel has no footprint in the Gaza Strip
> ...


*(COMMENT)*

International Law in the 20th Century:

•  Article 42 Harue Regulation of 1907: 
Territory is considered occupied when it is actually placed under the authority of the hostile army.
 The occupation extends only to the territory where such authority has been established and can be exercised.​In terms of the Gaza Strip, questions:

•  What Territory of the Gaza Strip is considered under the authority of the Israeli Defense Force? 
•  What Territory of Gaza is considered under the authority of the Arab Palestinians?​


Humanity said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > Israel, like so many other countries, reserves the right to control its borders and immigration
> ...


*(COMMENT)*

The "border" and a "Line of Control" (LoC) are considered as one and the same for the purposes of this discussion.

Without regard to the whatever, you might personally think, most borders of the world are just like the border between Israel and the Gaza Strip.  Each sovereignty controls what can enter _(and it need be, what exit)_.

Are you suggesting that Israel, or any of the Arab States within the Arab League, is prohibited from controlling the entry/exit of its borders?

No one is saying that Gazans cannot control borders...  BUT, Israel, like all the 22 countries of the Arab League, have the right to control its territorial integrity. 

Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## Sixties Fan (May 15, 2018)

DrLove said:


> Sixties Fan said:
> 
> 
> > DrLove said:
> ...


It is a war crime to hide ammunitions or fire rockets from civilian cities, or around civilians.

Gaza is not a country and they do not follow this rule, so they hide in hospitals, schools, Mosques, civilian homes, etc.
They fire rockets into Israel from amongst civilian homes, even near hotels as witnessed by the International Press.

In war, it is absolutely admissible to hit anywhere the enemy has decided to turn into a military target.

That is where the result, the photo, comes from.

Hamas hides amongst the civilians, Israel warns the civilians to leave, and ONLY THEN it hits the targets set up by Hamas and the other terror groups in Gaza.

Go talk to your friends about this nasty habit of using civilian areas and civilians when at war against Israel.


----------



## Humanity (May 15, 2018)

Shusha said:


> Humanity said:
> 
> 
> > Shusha said:
> ...



Yes I do...

Next


----------



## Humanity (May 15, 2018)

RoccoR said:


> RE: Is it time for Israel to re-take Gaza?
> ※→ Humanity, et al,
> 
> These are disputes that need to evolve the law.
> ...



Oh please....

You are smarter than this!


----------



## Indeependent (May 15, 2018)

Humanity said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > RE: Is it time for Israel to re-take Gaza?
> ...


Of all the people to question anyone else’s intelligence!


----------



## Shusha (May 15, 2018)

Issa said:


> What a fucking imperialist blood thirsty mentality. You represent the filth of humanity ....you are not happy with all the damage has been doing to the defenseless Palestinians you want more blood you fucktard ? European settlers style or nazi style ?



Your reading comprehension lacks.  The "mentality" with which I approached this thread was that there is a HUMANITARIAN crisis in Gaza and that the government of Gaza has not been able to address it.  Given those facts, my question was whether or not Israel should use its not inconsiderable resources to alleviate the suffering EVEN THOUGH it means temporarily and somewhat limiting Gaza's self-determination.  There is nothing imperialist, blood thirsty, filthy or Nazi-style about such a notion.  






PS, Coyote , also in comparison to this gem.


----------



## DrLove (May 15, 2018)

Sixties Fan said:


> Gaza is not a country and they do not follow this rule, so they hide in hospitals, schools, Mosques, civilian homes, etc.
> They fire rockets into Israel from amongst civilian homes, even near hotels as witnessed by the International Press.
> 
> In war, it is absolutely admissible to hit anywhere the enemy has decided to turn into a military target.
> ...



Civilized nations do not bomb churches, schools and hospitals regardless of whether they believe Hamas members are hiding in the basement.

War Crimes and Corruption - Buh Bye Bibi! 

Netanyahu Peril Grows, as Trusted Aide Agrees to Testify


----------



## Indeependent (May 15, 2018)

DrLove said:


> Sixties Fan said:
> 
> 
> > Gaza is not a country and they do not follow this rule, so they hide in hospitals, schools, Mosques, civilian homes, etc.
> ...


How about we put you in the line of fire when it’s happening?
We know Liberals don’t care when Hamas is firing missiles at Jewish children.


----------



## Sixties Fan (May 15, 2018)

DrLove said:


> Sixties Fan said:
> 
> 
> > Gaza is not a country and they do not follow this rule, so they hide in hospitals, schools, Mosques, civilian homes, etc.
> ...


You must have missed must happened during WWI, and actually what is happening in Syria, Iraq, Yemen, etc.

If the enemy is using any place to hide, it becomes a military target.
Those are the rules of law, you like them or not.

And, by all means, spend some time gloating about the PM going to jail or prison.  Have some ice cream, popcorn, watch a movie, watch many movies, very long ones.

You most unfortunately cannot differentiate between an investigation and an actual conviction.


----------



## Shusha (May 15, 2018)

Humanity said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > Humanity said:
> ...



So, explain why Israel should REDUCE its defenses against a neighboring political entity (quasi-state) while the government of that entity calls for the invasion of her sovereign territory and harm to her civilians?


----------



## Issa (May 15, 2018)

Shusha said:


> Issa said:
> 
> 
> > What a fucking imperialist blood thirsty mentality. You represent the filth of humanity ....you are not happy with all the damage has been doing to the defenseless Palestinians you want more blood you fucktard ? European settlers style or nazi style ?
> ...


Israel everything it touches it makes things worse for the Palestinians. They just killed 50 some with cold blood. Not long ago they were bombarding them with F16s. Israel is acting like nazi Germany no difference at all.


----------



## Shusha (May 15, 2018)

Issa said:


> Israel everything it touches it makes things worse for the Palestinians. They just killed 50 some with cold blood. Not long ago they were bombarding them with F16s. Israel is acting like nazi Germany no difference at all.



Are you suggesting, then, that Israel should withdraw its humanitarian aid to Gaza?  So as not to make it worse for the Palestinians?


----------



## Humanity (May 15, 2018)

Indeependent said:


> Humanity said:
> 
> 
> > RoccoR said:
> ...



Funny that dummy... No question asked, quite the opposite!


----------



## Humanity (May 15, 2018)

Shusha said:


> Humanity said:
> 
> 
> > Shusha said:
> ...



Did I say that?

I don't think I did. That's you getting all defensive again Shusha!

Funny how zionists get all defensive and their knickers in a twist when they know that Israel is in the wrong!


----------



## Indeependent (May 15, 2018)

Humanity said:


> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> > Humanity said:
> ...


You are a bleeding heart moron.


----------



## Humanity (May 15, 2018)

Indeependent said:


> Humanity said:
> 
> 
> > Indeependent said:
> ...



Ah bless you...

Learn to read moron!


----------



## Indeependent (May 15, 2018)

Humanity said:


> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> > Humanity said:
> ...


You’re not even an ameoba compared to RoccoR.


----------



## Humanity (May 15, 2018)

Indeependent said:


> Humanity said:
> 
> 
> > Indeependent said:
> ...



You have a serious comprehension issue you dumb fuck!

Get some education and then come back when you can actually read fucking English!

Dear oh dear... Team Israel just recruited an illiterate retard!


----------



## Shusha (May 15, 2018)

Humanity said:


> Did I say that?
> 
> I don't think I did.



You will have to clarify what you mean by "step out of all occupied territory" as it relates to Gaza.  

I had presumed you meant to remove the sea blockade.  And to make the border more open.  Permit use of air space and the building of an airport.  These are a reduction in defenses for Israel.  And this "March of Return" as has been presented by Gaza and Hamas is NOT a request to have a better economic relationship with Israel.  Israel's security can't be ignored here.


----------



## Humanity (May 15, 2018)

Shusha said:


> Humanity said:
> 
> 
> > Did I say that?
> ...



I don't think it really needs much clarification, do you?

Israel to end all occupation, period.

Israel can defend itself from within it's own borders. What has happened over the past days, weeks, is simply not acceptable, defense or otherwise.

Every country around the world condemns Israels heavy handedness in this latest atrocity.

You either live in a rose-tinted zionist bubble or simply choose to ignore the international condemnation of Israel, which is it?


----------



## Issa (May 15, 2018)

Shusha said:


> Issa said:
> 
> 
> > Israel everything it touches it makes things worse for the Palestinians. They just killed 50 some with cold blood. Not long ago they were bombarding them with F16s. Israel is acting like nazi Germany no difference at all.
> ...


I'm suggesting they lift the blockade and let world help the Gazans.


----------



## Shusha (May 15, 2018)

Humanity said:


> I don't think it really needs much clarification, do you?
> 
> Israel to end all occupation, period.



Obviously, I think it does or I wouldn't have asked.  Its a simple question -- give it a go.

With respect to Gaza, by what measurement will we know the occupation is over?  List all the things that Israel must do to end the occupation.  Then ask which of those specifically relate to security concerns for Israel.  Then answer my original question of why Israel should reduce her defenses against an obviously hostile government.

See, "end the occupation" is a nice, glib answer to solving the conflict.  And it neatly places all the responsibility on Israel and none on Gaza, including removing the necessity for Gaza and her government to cease the violence.  But everyone avoids a deeper discussion of what "end the occupation" means in concrete, practical terms. 

Some suggestions to get you going:

importation of weapons
importation of secondary use items which can be turned into weapons
military response to aggression
ability to make a military response inside Gaza
building an airport and permitting use of air space
removal of sea blockade
free travel of all nationals of Gaza into Israel
continuing provision of education, medical care to Gazan nationals
continuing provision of fuel, electricity, etc
an economic trade agreement
an entirely open border
return for Gazan nationals into Israel to places of birth or descendants to place of parents/grandparents birth


What does Israel have to do to "end the occupation"


----------



## Sixties Fan (May 15, 2018)

Humanity said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > Humanity said:
> ...



1)  Israel is not occupying any land which is not hers.  Some in Judea and Samaria is disputed, to be resolved under negotiations.

2) Israel is defending itself within its borders with Gaza.

3) Do not exaggerate about "all countries".  It is simply not true.

4) "International condemnation" comes from Christians and Muslim countries which hate Jews and want to see Israel destroyed.


Would you listen to a company which was out to take your house and said you owed them for it, and wanted the land to turn it into a parking lot or would you fight for it?


----------



## Shusha (May 15, 2018)

Humanity said:


> Israel can defend itself from within it's own borders. What has happened over the past days, weeks, is simply not acceptable, defense or otherwise.
> 
> Every country around the world condemns Israels heavy handedness in this latest atrocity.



Well, no.  Several have placed the responsibility, correctly, on Gaza and Hamas.

So, by defend itself do you mean lethal force or riot control methods?  Are you saying that Israel should be permitted only to make any type of response if someone crosses the border?  In other words, that Israel is permitted to defend her territory but not her border.  

What about people approaching the border with wire cutters, guns, IEDs, fire and pipe bombs.  Is Israel permitted to respond to any of those things?  Or only if they cross into Israeli territory?

If they cross into Israeli territory, is Israel permitted to respond?  If so, how so?

See, the atrocity is Gaza attempting to breach Israel's border.  Using violent methods.  While calling for Jews to burn.  Waving Nazi symbols.  And bringing their children with them.


----------



## Humanity (May 15, 2018)

Shusha said:


> Obviously, I think it does or I wouldn't have asked. Its a simple question -- give it a go.



I did! 

Don't tell me you are catching the same disease as indeependent! Must be some kind of 'zionist flu' or something!


----------



## Billo_Really (May 15, 2018)

rylah said:


> Q. Are You whining because not all of Your Jihadis got their wedding ceremonies?


Targeting wedding party's is more proof Israel doesn't want peace.


----------



## Indeependent (May 15, 2018)

Humanity said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > Humanity said:
> ...


So I guess Syria should leave Lebanon, Iran should leave Syria, Saudi Arabia should leave Yemen, Russia should leave Syria, Brazil should leave their surrounding countries, India should leave Pakistan, Pakistan should leave India, etc...
And yet the UN doesn’t seem to give a shit about all the non-Jews murdering each other.


----------



## Humanity (May 15, 2018)

Sixties Fan said:


> 1) Israel is not occupying any land which is not hers. Some in Judea and Samaria is disputed, to be resolved under negotiations.



Golan Heights to name but one.



Sixties Fan said:


> 2) Israel is defending itself within its borders with Gaza.



Wrong. Bombing Gaza is not within Israel's "borders"



Sixties Fan said:


> 3) Do not exaggerate about "all countries". It is simply not true.



Oh, yes, sorry, virtually every developed country in the world has condemned Israels actions over the past weeks. But hey, nothing new there! 



Sixties Fan said:


> 4) "International condemnation" comes from Christians and Muslim countries which hate Jews and want to see Israel destroyed.



You are fucking kidding right?

Which non Christian and Muslim countries are backing Israel?


----------



## Indeependent (May 15, 2018)

Humanity said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > Obviously, I think it does or I wouldn't have asked. Its a simple question -- give it a go.
> ...


It’s called survival.


----------



## Humanity (May 15, 2018)

Shusha said:


> Well, no. Several have placed the responsibility, correctly, on Gaza and Hamas.



Name them


----------



## Indeependent (May 15, 2018)

Humanity said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > Well, no. Several have placed the responsibility, correctly, on Gaza and Hamas.
> ...


Saudi Arabia.


----------



## Humanity (May 15, 2018)

Indeependent said:


> Humanity said:
> 
> 
> > Shusha said:
> ...



Being an illiterate moron is called "survival"?


----------



## P F Tinmore (May 15, 2018)

Sixties Fan said:


> DrLove said:
> 
> 
> > Sixties Fan said:
> ...


More BS Israeli talking points.


----------



## Sixties Fan (May 15, 2018)




----------



## Indeependent (May 15, 2018)

Humanity said:


> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> > Humanity said:
> ...


The world has spent 2,000 years trying to exterminate the Jews; why do think everyone should love us all of a sudden?


----------



## Humanity (May 15, 2018)

Indeependent said:


> Humanity said:
> 
> 
> > Shusha said:
> ...


----------



## Humanity (May 15, 2018)

Indeependent said:


> Humanity said:
> 
> 
> > Indeependent said:
> ...



What the fuck are you wittering on about now you illiterate moron!


----------



## Shusha (May 15, 2018)

Humanity said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > Obviously, I think it does or I wouldn't have asked. Its a simple question -- give it a go.
> ...



You did not.  You are giving glib answers that put all the responsibility on Israel.  What, exactly, does Israel need to do to end the occupation?  montelatici claims that as long as Israel holds the ability to enter Gaza because she is stronger militarily that she will continue to occupy Gaza.  Which essentially means it is impossible for Israel to "end the occupation" since she will always be a stronger military force.  If Israel decides to not to provide free medical care to foreign nationals, does that means she continues to occupy Gaza?  If Israel closes her border entirely with Gaza, does that mean Israel continues to occupy Gaza?

Stop avoiding a straight answer.  Its important.


----------



## Indeependent (May 15, 2018)

Humanity said:


> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> > Humanity said:
> ...


You’re kidding.
The new Prince has clearly blamed the Palis.
If you’re so smart, you find the link.
I’m on my iPhone and just typing is enough of a pain.


----------



## Indeependent (May 15, 2018)

Humanity said:


> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> > Humanity said:
> ...


Are you retarded?
The entire history of Europe is replete with Christians murdering Jews.
Not to mention Muslims.
Are you that uneducated or simply intoxicated?


----------



## Shusha (May 15, 2018)

Humanity said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > Well, no. Several have placed the responsibility, correctly, on Gaza and Hamas.
> ...



Australia.  USA.  As well as others who, while calling for restraint are calling for that on both sides.


----------



## Humanity (May 15, 2018)

Shusha said:


> You did not.


7

Post #131

Thank you.


----------



## Billo_Really (May 15, 2018)

Shusha said:


> Australia.  USA.  As well as others who, while calling for restraint are calling for that on both sides.


That's bullshit.  You won't even allow Palestinians freedom of expression.

*50 years of Israeli Occupation: Four Outrageous Facts about Military Order 101 
*
_Did you know that Israel has been banning Palestinians from organizing any protests for 50 years? This is what daily life under Israeli occupation is for Palestinians.

27 August marks 50 years since Israel issued Military Order 101, a law that punishes Palestinians for peaceful political expression. Anyone breaching the order faces imprisonment for up to 10 years and/or a hefty fine. 50 years on, Military Order 101, which is almost as old as Israel’s occupation of Palestinian territory, continues to apply to Palestinians in the West Bank, and may be enforced at any time.
_​You're the bad guys.


----------



## rylah (May 15, 2018)

Billo_Really said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> > Q. Are You whining because not all of Your Jihadis got their wedding ceremonies?
> ...



You poor idiot...
Because it's impolite to refuse Jihadi weddings invitations?


----------



## Humanity (May 15, 2018)

Shusha said:


> Humanity said:
> 
> 
> > Shusha said:
> ...



Stop controlling air, land and sea... It really isn't difficult and, to be honest, it get's seriously boring to keep repeating this to zionists who have short memories when they choose.

As I have heard so many times, Israel can do whatever she wishes so, if Israel wants to close borders with Gaza then she can. The rest of your comments don't even warrant a response Shusha.


----------



## Humanity (May 15, 2018)

Shusha said:


> Humanity said:
> 
> 
> > Shusha said:
> ...



So, not several then, TWO...

And one of those does NOT count!


----------



## Shusha (May 15, 2018)

Humanity said:


> Stop controlling air, land and sea... It really isn't difficult and, to be honest, it get's seriously boring to keep repeating this to zionists who have short memories when they choose.
> 
> As I have heard so many times, Israel can do whatever she wishes so, if Israel wants to close borders with Gaza then she can. The rest of your comments don't even warrant a response Shusha.



Okay, so since you agree that the land border is fair for Israel to control, all Israel has to do to end her occupation of Gaza is to remove the sea blockade and permit use of air space.  

Those BOTH have serious repercussions with respect to Israel's security and the safety of her citizens.  So again, WHY should Israel do that?  In particular, why should Israel do that without requiring Gaza and her government to cease the hostilities completely and entirely and permanently?


----------



## Humanity (May 15, 2018)

Shusha said:


> Humanity said:
> 
> 
> > Stop controlling air, land and sea... It really isn't difficult and, to be honest, it get's seriously boring to keep repeating this to zionists who have short memories when they choose.
> ...



So the occupation will continue.

At least be honest enough to admit that Gaza is occupied by Israel.


----------



## Billo_Really (May 15, 2018)

rylah said:


> You poor idiot...
> Because it's impolite to refuse Jihadi weddings invitations?


Spare me your hasbara BS.  You think it is okay to target wedding party's?  More proof the Israeli's are inhuman pieces of shit.

Bet you like to target hospitals as well?

*Israeli forces carry out violent hospital raids in ruthless display of force*​


----------



## Shusha (May 15, 2018)

Humanity said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > Humanity said:
> ...



Its not occupied.  Its blockaded.  This whole thread is about the possibility of re-occupying it.  In order to do that Israel has to do something different that it already is doing.  

The blockade is a direct result of violence against Israel.  Like what we are witnessing this week and the INTENT of that violence.  It will end when the violence ends.  Why is security NOT taking front and center here?  Why is that so unreasonable?

Its like, you are trying to argue that if only Gaza had access to more weapons, the violence against Israel would stop.


----------



## Shusha (May 15, 2018)

Its fundamentally a question of why Israel does not have the right to security.


----------



## rylah (May 15, 2018)

Billo_Really said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> > You poor idiot...
> ...




Of course it's impolite to refuse Jihadi wedding ceremonies.
You plan on attending one?


----------



## Humanity (May 15, 2018)

Shusha said:


> The blockade is a direct result of violence against Israel





Shusha said:


> Like what we are witnessing this week



So you are worried that Hamas will start importing rocks and stones from? Egypt? Syria? Iran?


----------



## Humanity (May 15, 2018)

Shusha said:


> Its fundamentally a question of why Israel does not have the right to security.



I don't think that anyone is suggesting that Israel does not have the right to defend herself.

It's the way she defends herself.

No other country would EVER get away with what we have had to witness from Israel these past weeks.

It's just lucky that Israel has that magic word protecting her. It is ONLY that that stops firmer international condemnation. Once upon a time I would have also included the US as another reason there is not firmer international condemnation but, as we have seen, the US is isolating itself and becoming a laughing stock worldwide.


----------



## JakeStarkey (May 15, 2018)

The OP is crazy.

Nobody, including those living there, want Gaza.


----------



## Shusha (May 15, 2018)

Humanity said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > The blockade is a direct result of violence against Israel
> ...



Oh come on, really?  You think with open waterways that Gaza and Hamas and Iran and ISIS are going to restrain themselves and that there is no danger to Israel?


----------



## Shusha (May 15, 2018)

Humanity said:


> I don't think that anyone is suggesting that Israel does not have the right to defend herself.
> 
> It's the way she defends herself.



With a blockade?  While providing uncounted amounts of humanitarian aide for over a decade to her enemy?  What do you suggest?  Is there a gentler way of defending yourself from those who claim to want to kill you?


----------



## Humanity (May 15, 2018)

Shusha said:


> Humanity said:
> 
> 
> > I don't think that anyone is suggesting that Israel does not have the right to defend herself.
> ...



So you don't have the decency of honesty to admit that Gaza is occupied by Israel?


----------



## Sixties Fan (May 15, 2018)

Humanity said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > Humanity said:
> ...


You do not even know the definition of Occupied.

What does it entail?  How many Israelis are living in Gaza, compared to how many Turks are living in Northern Cyprus?


----------



## Shusha (May 15, 2018)

Israel is permitted to defend herself against a foreign government who expresses the desire to remove all territory from her sovereignty while killing her citizens as long as she doesn't use:  lethal force, injuring force, non-lethal force, riot control methods, law-enforcement, economic sanctions, blockades, restrictions on weapon importation, humanitarian aide, free electricity and fuel, provision of medical care to foreign nationals or provide employment.


----------



## Shusha (May 15, 2018)

Humanity said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > Humanity said:
> ...



Its not occupied.  Not by any normative legal use of the term.  It IS blockaded. 

Your definition of "occupied", provided by you in a previous post, is the control of territorial waters and airspace.  That does not meet the legal requirement of "occupation".  It certainly meets the broad legal definition of a blockade.

Why is it so important to you that I adopt the term "occupation" if it doesn't fit?  Is it because "occupation" sounds more evil than "blockade"?  Or is because you can expand the definition of "occupation" at will?


----------



## P F Tinmore (May 15, 2018)

Shusha said:


> Humanity said:
> 
> 
> > Stop controlling air, land and sea... It really isn't difficult and, to be honest, it get's seriously boring to keep repeating this to zionists who have short memories when they choose.
> ...


Indeed, Israel must defend its settler colonial project.


----------



## Hollie (May 15, 2018)

P F Tinmore said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > Humanity said:
> ...



Indeed not. Quite clearly, Israel is defending its border from the Islamist terrorists.


----------



## P F Tinmore (May 15, 2018)

Hollie said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Shusha said:
> ...


There is no border there. That is just Israel's cage around Gaza. The Palestinians have the right to take down their cage.


----------



## toomuchtime_ (May 15, 2018)

Shusha said:


> Yes, I'm being provocative.  (I'm bored with all the ridiculous discussion of people trying to demonize Israel for defending her borders from violent rioters talking about marching to Jerusalem ripping the hearts out of Jews.  Ugh.)
> 
> So let's talk about the future of Gaza.
> 
> ...





Shusha said:


> Yes, I'm being provocative.  (I'm bored with all the ridiculous discussion of people trying to demonize Israel for defending her borders from violent rioters talking about marching to Jerusalem ripping the hearts out of Jews.  Ugh.)
> 
> So let's talk about the future of Gaza.
> 
> ...


Judea and Samaria are quieter than Gaza because the IDF operates throughout that area and does not operate in Gaza.  Back in 2014, Liberman argued that Israel should retake Gaza and manage it the way it manages Judea and Samaria.  Hamas is now saying the riots will continue until all the Arabs in Gaza are allowed to "return" to Israel, and of course that cannot be allowed to happen, so if the riots continue, retaking Gaza may be the only viable option.  

When Sharon was southern commander between the Six Day War and the Yom Kippur War, he quieted Gaza by dividing it in several sections and appointing dedicated military units to each section.  Within a few months they had arrested of killed all the major terrorists and Gaza was quiet, but Sharon knew it wouldn't last, and he argued that the only way to maintain the quiet long term was for Israel to make significant investments in Gaza to improve living conditions, but the government rejected the idea.  

Today, Gaza is far more radicalized than it was in 1969 and there is no chance of winning the hearts and minds of the Arabs there, so if Israel has to retake it and stay there long term, it will be purely a security operation.  The only benefit the Arab or Israelis will get from it will be less violence.  This will certainly benefit the Israelis who live near to Gaza, but the price for this quiet will be increasingly harsh criticism that will cause problems diplomatically.  If he riots continue and set off those kinds of problems anyway, then retaking Gaza may be preferable.


----------



## montelatici (May 15, 2018)

Shusha said:


> Humanity said:
> 
> 
> > Shusha said:
> ...



Gaza is legally occupied as determined by the International Court of Justice:

"26. Israel maintains that following the 2005 disengagement, it is no longer an occupying power in Gaza as it does not exercise effective control over the area.

27. However, the prevalent view within the international community is that Israel remains an occupying power in Gaza despite the 2005 disengagement. In general, this view is based on the scope and degree of control that Israel has retained over the territory of Gaza following the 2005 disengagement – including, inter alia, Israel’s exercise of control over border crossings, the territorial sea adjacent to the Gaza Strip, and the airspace of Gaza; its periodic military incursions within Gaza; its enforcement of no-go areas within Gaza near the border where Israeli settlements used to be; and its regulation of the local monetary market based on the Israeli currency and control of taxes and customs duties. The retention of such competences by Israel over the territory of Gaza even after the 2005 disengagement overall supports the conclusion that the authority retained by Israel amounts to effective control.

28. Although it no longer maintains a military presence in Gaza, Israel has not only shown the ability to conduct incursions into Gaza at will, but also expressly reserved the right to do so as required by military necessity. This consideration is potentially significant considering that there is support in international case law for the conclusion that it is not a prerequisite that a State maintain continuous presence in a territory in order to qualify as an occupying power. In particular, the ICTY has held that the law of occupation would also apply to areas where a state possesses “the capacity to send troops within a reasonable time to make the authority of the occupying power felt.” In this respect, it is also noted that the geographic proximity of the Gaza Strip to Israel potentially facilitates the ability of Israel to exercise effective control over the territory, despite the lack of a continuous military presence.

29. Overall, there is a reasonable basis upon which to conclude *that Israel continues to be an occupying power in Gaza despite the 2005 disengagement.* The Office has therefore proceeded on the basis that the situation in Gaza can be considered within the framework of an international armed conflict in view of the continuing military occupation by Israel."

Opinio Juris  » Blog Archive  The OTP Concludes Israel Is Still Occupying Gaza - Opinio Juris


----------



## Hollie (May 15, 2018)

P F Tinmore said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



You can certainly entertain yourself with your denials of the reality but you can’t really deny the islamo-dead people who were denied the ability to cross a border you are in denial of. 

It’s a _no gee-had_  zone.


----------



## Hollie (May 15, 2018)

montelatici said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > Humanity said:
> ...



Someone’s cut and paste opinion. 

Duly noted and ignored.


----------



## jillian (May 15, 2018)

Shusha said:


> Yes, I'm being provocative.  (I'm bored with all the ridiculous discussion of people trying to demonize Israel for defending her borders from violent rioters talking about marching to Jerusalem ripping the hearts out of Jews.  Ugh.)
> 
> So let's talk about the future of Gaza.
> 
> ...



Israel doesn’t want Gaza. They are ungovernable terrorost supporters. Why would Israel want them?


----------



## Dogmaphobe (May 15, 2018)

I have a better idea.  Erect a giant cage around it and charge admission.


.....oops, make that plexiglass, instead.  The flying poop and all......,


----------



## Coyote (May 15, 2018)

Shusha said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Sixties Fan said:
> ...


The first three lines of the post I responded to.

There is plenty of hate going around and it certainly isn’t one sided in USMB.  Folks either ignore or agree when it targets the minority they hate.


----------



## Sixties Fan (May 15, 2018)

Coyote said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...


With all due respect, you generalize everything and deal with nothing.

Which is the problem I keep seeing in too many posters.

They cannot detail what the issues are.

You seem to keep saying that Israel and the Jews hate the Arab Palestinians.

Let me give you a quote from Golda Meir:

“We can forgive the Arabs for killing our children. We cannot forgive them for forcing us to kill their children. We will only have peace with the Arabs when they love their children more than they hate us”


----------



## Sixties Fan (May 15, 2018)

*On Compromise with the Arabs*

“We Jews have a secret weapon in our struggle with the Arabs - We have no place to go.”

“I guess we have no choice. Either we do everything that is possible, and may seem to others as impossible, and just give up. Or we do everything that is really impossible and we remain alive. There’s one more basic thing that I think that people outside of Israel must realize, and if they understand and accept that, maybe other things will fall into place.

For instance, we’re not the only people in the world who’ve had difficulties with neighbors; that has happened to many. We are the only country in the world whose neighbors do not say, “We are going to war because we want a certain piece of land from Israel,” or waterways or anything of that kind. We’re the only people in the world where our neighbors openly announce they just won’t have us here. And they will not give up fighting and they will not give up war as long as we remain alive. Here.

So this is the crux of the problem: it isn’t anything concrete that they want from us. That’s why it doesn’t make sense when people say, “Give up this and give up the other place. Give up the Golan Heights,” for instance. What happened when we were not on the Golan Heights? We were not on the Golan Heights before ’67, and for 19 years, Syria had guns up there and shot at our agricultural settlements below. We were not on the Golan Heights! So what, if we give up the Golan Heights, they will stop shooting? We were not in the Suez Canal when the war started.

It’s because Egypt and Syria and the other Arab countries refuse to acquiesce to our existence. Therefore there can be no compromise. They say we must be dead. And we say we want to be alive. Between life and death, I don’t know of a compromise. And that’s why we have no choice.”

- _60 Minutes_ Interview, September 1973

Golda Meir Quotes on Israel & Judaism


----------



## Indeependent (May 15, 2018)

Sixties Fan said:


> *On Compromise with the Arabs*
> 
> “We Jews have a secret weapon in our struggle with the Arabs - We have no place to go.”
> 
> ...


We could go back to Europe where the Muslim refugees are currently killing one Jew at a time.


----------



## Coyote (May 15, 2018)

rylah said:


> Humanity said:
> 
> 
> > rylah said:
> ...


No.  They don’t.


Sixties Fan said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Shusha said:
> ...



You are generalizing about Muslims and you say I generalize everything?


----------



## Sixties Fan (May 15, 2018)

Coyote said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> > Humanity said:
> ...


You have not answered my post, even thought you may think you have.

Read, re-read, think about both Judaism and Islam and the teachings from each one.

And please, do not generalize.


----------



## Coyote (May 15, 2018)

Shusha said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Sixties Fan said:
> ...



This thread is full of hateful gems.  All you need is to bring up Jews or Muslims to bring in the scavengers spouting their memes and canards.  But you are wrong if you think it is only directed at Jews, there is plenty directed at Muslims, not terrorists but the group as a whole.  The only difference is that it is considered acceptable by many.  Few speak out.  Do you want to see a truly disgusting example?  Myanmar Is Starving Rohingya Muslims Out of Their Villages: Reports

We need to confront hate, not normalize it.


----------



## RoccoR (May 15, 2018)

RE:  Is it time for Israel to re-take Gaza? 
※→  _et al,_

Is there a reason to re-take the Gaza Strip?

What is to be gained by re-taking the Gaza Strip?  It is just another congregation that has nothing to offer that would be considered properous and productive. 

It is a territorial entity that is about 99% Islamic; which is predominantly Sunni.   But the people of the Gaza Strip were much too young to have any significant portion of the population that would fit the true refugee _(eligible for consideration as a returnee)(repatriation or compensation)_ :

Residence was in Palestine under Mandate.
During the period 1 June 1946 to 15 May 1948,
Lost home,
Lost livelihood,
But the really interesting piece to the politics in the last two decades is the hidden political object of the Arab League:  Do not search for a solution.  In fact, the more serious of the Arab League members had no interest in a solution.

Oddly enough, the _status quo_ is quite satisfactory for the Arab League.  They are in no real hurry to form a solution.

Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## Coyote (May 15, 2018)

RoccoR said:


> RE:  Is it time for Israel to re-take Gaza?
> ※→  _et al,_
> 
> Is there a reason to re-take the Gaza Strip?
> ...


and that is where we should focus our efforts first...then turn to Israel.


----------



## Shusha (May 15, 2018)

Coyote said:


> The first three lines of the post I responded to.
> 
> There is plenty of hate going around and it certainly isn’t one sided in USMB.  Folks either ignore or agree when it targets the minority they hate.



These? 

_ Islam is self explanatory:  Submit or die.
_
Alright.  I hear what you are saying.  Although I will add that is a comment about a religious idea and not about a people.  That may or may not matter in terms of identifying hate.  I see hate speech as attacking peoples (as a collective) and not about commenting on people's (often mistaken) interpretation of another religion.


----------



## Shusha (May 15, 2018)

RoccoR said:


> Is there a reason to re-take the Gaza Strip?




There are certainly humanitarian reasons to remove Gaza from Hamas' control.  I don't really see that as the question.  The question is whether Israel can or should take that on.


----------



## Shusha (May 15, 2018)

Coyote said:


> This thread is full of hateful gems.  All you need is to bring up Jews or Muslims to bring in the scavengers spouting their memes and canards.  But you are wrong if you think it is only directed at Jews, there is plenty directed at Muslims, not terrorists but the group as a whole.  The only difference is that it is considered acceptable by many.  Few speak out.  Do you want to see a truly disgusting example?  Myanmar Is Starving Rohingya Muslims Out of Their Villages: Reports
> 
> We need to confront hate, not normalize it.



I agree we need to confront hate.  I'm pretty sure I've never claimed that hate is only directed toward Jews.  And I'm also sure I've mentioned that the I/P board is the only one I read on USMB.  On the I/P board there is virtually no reference to Muslims collectively.  Especially not from the regular posters.  


Btw, that link dropped me into the middle of a 90 page thread.  Was there something specific you wanted me to see?


----------



## Linkiloo (May 16, 2018)

Humanity said:


> Sixties Fan said:
> 
> 
> > Humanity said:
> ...


Yeah because the rest of the world is enlightened. Look at Syria, Turkey, Afganistan, Nigeria, Sudan, Russia, the Ukraine and all the other enlightened countries of the world. You're so idealist as to live in Willy Wonka's chocolate factory.


----------



## Linkiloo (May 16, 2018)

Penelope said:


> View attachment 193625
> 
> What Trump's Jerusalem Decision Has Wrought
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> ...


Yeah the day before the embassy was relocated there had been no terrorism known in Israel.


----------



## Linkiloo (May 16, 2018)

P F Tinmore said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Shusha said:
> ...


Like Isis or Boko Haram.


----------



## theliq (May 16, 2018)

Shusha said:


> Yes, I'm being provocative.  (I'm bored with all the ridiculous discussion of people trying to demonize Israel for defending her borders from violent rioters talking about marching to Jerusalem ripping the hearts out of Jews.  Ugh.)
> 
> So let's talk about the future of Gaza.
> 
> ...


NO,IT IS TIME FOR PALESTINE TO TAKE BACK THEIR LAND


----------



## Linkiloo (May 16, 2018)

Billo_Really said:


> Sixties Fan said:
> 
> 
> > The only thing they ever wanted from the tunnels, even out of Egypt, was to smuggle weapons to attack Israel and the Jews.
> ...


They suck at if if they are trying to destroy the palestinians in Gaza, as obesity and population growth is soring. Didn't realise the jews were so bad at what they did.


----------



## theliq (May 16, 2018)

Linkiloo said:


> Penelope said:
> 
> 
> > View attachment 193625
> ...


Considering the ZIONISTS ARE A TERRORIST ORGANIZATION...you must be JOKING


----------



## theliq (May 16, 2018)

Tijn Von Ingersleben said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > Is it possible for Israel to offer some carrots here? In the form of clean water, improved medical care, economic trade?
> ...


Well some of the Crusaders were CANNIBALS...you need to read up on history of this area


----------



## rylah (May 16, 2018)

Coyote said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> > Humanity said:
> ...




Let me just put another perspective out there, for the sake of balance.

What many Jews in Israel are witnessing is that Arab - Jewish relations, not the ones in the news but in everyday life, tend to be much easier and respectful when Jews come from a place of heritage, and do not tend to be shy about it.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
There's a story about Rabbi Mordechai Elyahu told by his son, Rabbi Mordechai lived all his life among Arabs in Jerusalem.

When IDF captured the Cave of the Machpelah  they also sent Rabbi Mordechai Eliyahu to enter with them. There were many commanders, and apparently also Rabin, Motta Gur and other prominent soldiers.
In short, they enter the cave, and there's a sheikh in the Cave who had a room there.
He runs of the room and begins to shout at them:
_"You do not respect the place! How dare you come in like that with your shoes and all your dirt?
We Arabs have been here for twenty years and never entered with  shoes."_

And all the commanders lowered their heads.
So Rabbi Mordechai Eliyahu told him -_ "Listen"_ ,he told him in Arabic, _"wuallaq You are the sons of the maidservants - if you enter the king with dirt, He'll take your head off. But if his son enters the room in the middle of an important meeting, even if he enters with dirt, the King will not take care of him?"_

The sheikh was nervous at first
And the commanders scolded Rabbi Mordechai Eliyahu and told him _"How do you talk to him? We want to live with them in peace". _And Rabbi Mordechai Eliyahu answered them - _"I grew up all my life with Arabs, that's the only way they understand, there is nothing else"_
After a few minutes the sheikh came and said to him, _"Ya sidi (respected) ya hakim (wise) You are right".
_
Rapport is easier to create by mirroring, Jews have their own bag of experience speaking the language of Arabia. And if You listen to Arabic, it's very decisive, categorical and spoken with energy, on high tones. One can't examine the language of Israel towards Arabs by only looking at the conversation with PLO and Hamas, especially not when half of the Arab world actively turning towards Israel. But one can see the language used by Palestinians towards their Arab brothers in Egypt and elsewhere, it's extortions and demands for mass suicides. The irony is that Arabs are now turning towards Israel and away from Palestinian fractions.

The new perspective is Israel can cooperate with Arabs and they both look towards it. But neither Arabs nor Israel need any Jihadis to put sticks in their wheels. The notion that Hamas or PLO represent "Arab Honor", while joining Iran- has deeply hurt Palestinian relations with their Arab brothers.


----------



## Linkiloo (May 16, 2018)

theliq said:


> Linkiloo said:
> 
> 
> > Penelope said:
> ...


Soundbites. fact remains if Jews were trying to kill Gazians, you'd think Gazians wouldn't be increasing in population or in obesity.


----------



## theliq (May 16, 2018)

Linkiloo said:


> theliq said:
> 
> 
> > Linkiloo said:
> ...


WHAT RELEVENCE ARE YOU MUTTERING...YOU ARE OFF SUBJECT...but thank you for your post ACTUALLY...but to follow your lead I do agree with you Linkiloo, Zionist converts and Jews,have major health issues,Obesity,Eyes,requiring Body parts etc., AND LIKE THE PALESTINIANS ...TOTAL STRESS LIVING IN THIS ENVIOROMENT sic and Mental Issues for both sides must be HORRENDOUS,time for both sides to have respect for each other and PEACE...steve


----------



## Tijn Von Ingersleben (May 16, 2018)

theliq said:


> Tijn Von Ingersleben said:
> 
> 
> > Shusha said:
> ...


Great non-sequitur, rimjob.


----------



## Coyote (May 16, 2018)

Shusha said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > The first three lines of the post I responded to.
> ...


If read through the posts, most don’t make a distinction between the religion and the followers.  That is hate speech imo, but also spread untruths.  Submit or die speaks of what people think Islam is and what they think Muslims do or will do (ie you can’t trust them).


----------



## Coyote (May 16, 2018)

Shusha said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > This thread is full of hateful gems.  All you need is to bring up Jews or Muslims to bring in the scavengers spouting their memes and canards.  But you are wrong if you think it is only directed at Jews, there is plenty directed at Muslims, not terrorists but the group as a whole.  The only difference is that it is considered acceptable by many.  Few speak out.  Do you want to see a truly disgusting example?  Myanmar Is Starving Rohingya Muslims Out of Their Villages: Reports
> ...



I forget you stick to IP, but the thread is chock full of justifications for killing or abusing the Rohinga because they Muslim and some of it is from regulars here.  You find less of it here (as well as fewer topics attacking Jews collectively) because we keep the focus on Israel and Palestinian (though those still get used as proxies for Jew and Muslim).


----------



## P F Tinmore (May 16, 2018)

Coyote said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...


Indeed, this is not a religious conflict.


----------



## rylah (May 16, 2018)

P F Tinmore said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Shusha said:
> ...



Listening to You, there're no Jews, no Israel, no conflict.

You're done.


----------



## Hollie (May 16, 2018)

P F Tinmore said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Shusha said:
> ...



Indeed, it certainly is. 

WATCH: Friday sermon by Gaza cleric: ‘Return March’ goes hand in hand with jihad’


----------



## montelatici (May 16, 2018)

Dogmaphobe said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Shusha said:
> ...



I have never read any such thing from Coyote, you liar.  And, you are the one that revels in the mass murder of non-Jews, Christians included, by Jews. You are Mr. Hate Speech extraodinaire.


----------



## RoccoR (May 16, 2018)

RE:  Is it time for Israel to re-take Gaza?
※→  montelatici,  et al,

What Mass Murder?



montelatici said:


> I have never read any such thing from Coyote, you liar.  And, you are the one that revels in the mass murder of non-Jews, Christians included, by Jews. You are Mr. Hate Speech extraodinaire.



vr.
R


----------



## Shusha (May 16, 2018)

This is an excellent commentary along the lines of what I was thinking when I opened this thread, but said far more eloquently.

The moral challenge of Gaza


----------



## Billo_Really (May 16, 2018)

Linkiloo said:


> They suck at if if they are trying to destroy the palestinians in Gaza, as obesity and population growth is soring. Didn't realise the jews were so bad at what they did.


That's why a UN report says Gaza will not be able to sustain life by 2020?


----------



## Hollie (May 16, 2018)

Billo_Really said:


> Linkiloo said:
> 
> 
> > They suck at if if they are trying to destroy the palestinians in Gaza, as obesity and population growth is soring. Didn't realise the jews were so bad at what they did.
> ...



That's good news for Hamas.

Hamas second-richest terror group in world, Forbes says


----------



## Coyote (May 16, 2018)

Shusha said:


> This is an excellent commentary along the lines of what I was thinking when I opened this thread, but said far more eloquently.
> 
> The moral challenge of Gaza


That is a great article Shusha, and thought provoking.  I hope everyone takes a moment to read it.

Very powerful...

_Gaza paralyzes me, because human beings are dying at my hands, and I do not know how to prevent it. Gaza frightens me, because it is so easy to forget it and sing, regardless of what is happening there. Gaza challenges us, for it is in Gaza that our commitment to the value of human life is and will be tested._​


----------



## Shusha (May 16, 2018)

Coyote said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > This is an excellent commentary along the lines of what I was thinking when I opened this thread, but said far more eloquently.
> ...



Do you hear my frustration at not being able to discuss things at this level?


----------



## Coyote (May 16, 2018)

Shusha said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Shusha said:
> ...


Yes, I do.


----------



## Coyote (May 16, 2018)

To create a sustainable solution for Gaza, the Arab states need to be on board and committed along with Israel.


----------



## P F Tinmore (May 16, 2018)

Coyote said:


> To create a sustainable solution for Gaza, the Arab states need to be on board and committed along with Israel.


Why?


----------



## Sixties Fan (May 16, 2018)

Coyote said:


> To create a sustainable solution for Gaza, the Arab states need to be on board and committed along with Israel.


Committed to what exactly?

For decades Arab countries, the USA, the EU and others have given money for Gaza to be built and rebuilt.

Most of that money has gone for Hamas homes, resorts, Malls, and especially for the building of tunnels to go under and into Israel for an invasion.

What can the Arab States, aka, the Arab League do now, as Hamas and all other militant groups in Gaza continue to be intent in wasting time and money attempting to destroy Israel as per their charter.

When will Hamas commit to destroy that charter and start using that money to build infrastructure for all the population, as it is done in Israel, Egypt, and other Arab countries.

Hezbollah is destroying Lebanon.
Hamas has been destroying Gaza.

What is the answer to the endless demand to destroy Israel and put all effort and money into it?


----------



## Coyote (May 16, 2018)

P F Tinmore said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > To create a sustainable solution for Gaza, the Arab states need to be on board and committed along with Israel.
> ...


Because the problem was not created in isolation or by Israel alone, all the players should be involved.  Especially when the MidEast is so fragmented and volatile. Gaza Is desperate and it’s people feel hopeless.  That makes it easy for extremist elements to make inroads among its people.  If you want to prevent that, you need the committed support of all the people who had a hand in creating the problem.


----------



## Sixties Fan (May 16, 2018)

Coyote said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...


Were all players involved in the Peace treaty between Israel and Egypt, and Israel and Jordan?

How did the treaties come about?

Mainly, from the need to stop attacking Israel or the countries would collapse.  They did not get the funding that Gaza and the PA do.

The extremists are running Gaza and the PA.

The extremist are creating the conditions for the people to be desperate and feel that they have to protest, riot and attack Israel.

Here is the testimony of someone who lives in Gaza.  Here is why they riot:

Palestinian caught at Gaza fence says Hamas plans riots so ‘people won’t revolt’


----------



## Coyote (May 16, 2018)

Sixties Fan said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...


I am not thinking about peace treaties but about the means to make Gaza sustainable.


----------



## Sixties Fan (May 16, 2018)

Coyote said:


> Sixties Fan said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...


And one does not depend on the other, how so?


----------



## theliq (May 17, 2018)

Hollie said:


> Billo_Really said:
> 
> 
> > Linkiloo said:
> ...


Who cashed them up Zionist?>>>>>>>YES AMERICA AND ZIONSTAN,You ignorant Fool


----------



## theliq (May 17, 2018)

Sixties Fan said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > To create a sustainable solution for Gaza, the Arab states need to be on board and committed along with Israel.
> ...


Well you Zionist and the UNUNITED STATES originated Armed and Cashed up HAMAS.....Idiot


----------



## theliq (May 17, 2018)

P F Tinmore said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > To create a sustainable solution for Gaza, the Arab states need to be on board and committed along with Israel.
> ...


Fair point Tinnie...steve


----------



## theliq (May 17, 2018)

Coyote said:


> Sixties Fan said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...


OPEN THE PORT FACILITY,PUT UN TROOPS ALONG THE BORDERS AND GET THE IDF TO FCUK OFF,THAT'S ALL THAT IS NEEDED


----------



## admonit (May 17, 2018)

Shusha said:


> This is an excellent commentary along the lines of what I was thinking when I opened this thread, but said far more eloquently.
> 
> The moral challenge of Gaza


I find nothing special in the article, just a common leftist rhetoric: "yes...but".
Yes, Israel has the right to defend herself but..
Yes, they are terrorists but..
It is not surprising that the article was not written in Hebrew - it is addressed to the liberal Western public.


----------



## Andylusion (May 17, 2018)

Shusha said:


> Yes, I'm being provocative.  (I'm bored with all the ridiculous discussion of people trying to demonize Israel for defending her borders from violent rioters talking about marching to Jerusalem ripping the hearts out of Jews.  Ugh.)
> 
> So let's talk about the future of Gaza.
> 
> ...



If it were up to me.....

I'd have a full military mobilization, and have the Israelis bomb the snot out of them, and then force them out.

Honestly, I am so fed up with these animals.   They are animals.  Give them a week to clear out, and the roll in the tanks.   Tried of this crap.  They don't even care about themselves, so how can we?

That mother, who dragged her infant to the boarder fence, and then cried when it died from tear gas?.....  What kind of animal does that?  Name one.  Name one animal on the face of this Earth, that drags it's young into an area where it smells gas.   RODENTS run from smoke fumes.   RODENTS

BUGS RUN FROM FUMES

When you are less humane towards your own infant child.... THAN A BUG.....

Sorry... I am so done with these people.


----------



## admonit (May 17, 2018)

Andylusion said:


> Sorry... I am so done with these people.


Now imagine what Israelis feel...


----------



## theliq (May 17, 2018)

Andylusion said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > Yes, I'm being provocative.  (I'm bored with all the ridiculous discussion of people trying to demonize Israel for defending her borders from violent rioters talking about marching to Jerusalem ripping the hearts out of Jews.  Ugh.)
> ...


MORON


----------



## Coyote (May 17, 2018)

Andylusion said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > Yes, I'm being provocative.  (I'm bored with all the ridiculous discussion of people trying to demonize Israel for defending her borders from violent rioters talking about marching to Jerusalem ripping the hearts out of Jews.  Ugh.)
> ...


Genocide much?

Desperate people do desperate things.


----------



## Billo_Really (May 17, 2018)

Andylusion said:


> If it were up to me.....
> 
> I'd have a full military mobilization, and have the Israelis bomb the snot out of them, and then force them out.
> 
> ...


What kind of animal shoots tear gas at a baby?


----------



## Hollie (May 17, 2018)

Billo_Really said:


> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> > If it were up to me.....
> ...



What kind of Islamic terrorist apologist would suggest that happened?


----------



## rylah (May 17, 2018)

Billo_Really said:


> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> > If it were up to me.....
> ...



What kind of animal brings a baby to a provocation against an army?


----------



## Sixties Fan (May 17, 2018)

Here is the page for COGAT.  Look at the bottom of the page how much goes into Gaza to help the people.  How many get into Israel for medical help or jobs, exports,  etc, from both Gaza and the PA.

http://www.cogat.mod.gov.il/en/Pages/default.aspx


Now, Hamas just yesterday rejected much needed two trucks full of medicine for its people simply because it was from Israel.

And this is a testimony by one of the Arabs arrested crossing the fence yesterday:

Watch: Arrested terrorist reveals all


How can the people in Gaza who have no weapons, no money and no power against Hamas turn against them when they know they are being used against Israel.

How can they make Gaza sustainable when Hamas appropriates itself of most of what they need out of the daily trucks which are sent by the International community?


----------



## Andylusion (May 17, 2018)

theliq said:


> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> > Shusha said:
> ...



Yeah, because I pointed out the truth.    You can't answer a single point I made.  Not even one.  You don't even have a reply.


----------



## Billo_Really (May 17, 2018)

Hollie said:


> What kind of Islamic terrorist apologist would suggest that happened?


What kind of Israeli kiss-ass would act like it didn't?


----------



## Billo_Really (May 17, 2018)

rylah said:


> What kind of animal brings a baby to a provocation against an army?


What kind of evil piece of shit would fire a tear gas canister

*AT*

*  A*

*BABY!*


----------



## rylah (May 17, 2018)

Billo_Really said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> > What kind of animal brings a baby to a provocation against an army?
> ...


The kind of idiot who takes a baby with a heart condition to a Hamas riot. 

Look, You guys have made big pompous claims during the last weeks,
and pretty much ALL of them were exposed as lies by Palestinians themselves:

*Hamas' Claim That Israelis Killed Baby Is Disputed By Doctor In Gaza*

In the midst of the revelation that the huge number of Palestinians killed in the Hamas-instigated violence in Gaza were members of Hamas, a new fact has arisen that contradicts the Hamas narrative of events: On Tuesday, a Gaza doctor told the Associated Press health official that the Hamas claim that an 8-month-old baby died from Israeli tear gas was inaccurate. He attested that the baby, Layla Ghandour, had a preexisting medical condition which caused her death.


----------



## Andylusion (May 17, 2018)

Billo_Really said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> > What kind of animal brings a baby to a provocation against an army?
> ...



Really?   You are trash human being, if you are telling me that you would prefer they shoot them with live bullets.

You are also a trash human being, if you would rather have the police simply let self-proclaimed murderers run into your house and kill your family.

Here's a thought... don't take your baby into a military controlled area, and stop being a trash human being.


----------



## theliq (May 17, 2018)

Andylusion said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > Yes, I'm being provocative.  (I'm bored with all the ridiculous discussion of people trying to demonize Israel for defending her borders from violent rioters talking about marching to Jerusalem ripping the hearts out of Jews.  Ugh.)
> ...


IDIOT LIAR,it was the Grandmother,who took the baby,looking for the babys mother who was exercising her right for freedom,anyway the Beastial IDF ZIONIST SHIT fired live rounds into Palestinians on the Palestinian side of the border murdering 64 and maiming 2576.innocent people..you bastard

It would be like the US shooting Mexicans on the border....Only the Zionist Terrorist would do such a thing...A WAR CRIME,they have been doing it for 70 years ...the world condems them


----------



## theliq (May 17, 2018)

Andylusion said:


> Billo_Really said:
> 
> 
> > rylah said:
> ...


SCUM


----------



## Billo_Really (May 17, 2018)

Andylusion said:


> Really?


That's Mr. Really, to you.



Andylusion said:


> You are trash human being, if you are telling me that you would prefer they shoot them with live bullets.


I prefer they not be shot at all.



Andylusion said:


> You are also a trash human being, if you would rather have the police simply let self-proclaimed murderers run into your house and kill your family.


So tell us, what does an 8 month old baby proclaim?



Andylusion said:


> Here's a thought... don't take your baby into a military controlled area, and stop being a trash human being.


Military control doesn't give you the right to murder infants in cold blood.


----------



## Billo_Really (May 17, 2018)

rylah said:


> The kind of idiot who takes a baby with a heart condition to a Hamas riot.
> 
> Look, You guys have made big pompous claims during the last weeks,
> and pretty much ALL of them were exposed as lies by Palestinians themselves:
> ...


It was a peaceful protest that the Israeli's turned violent.  The entire world has seen this on TV and is appalled by Israeli actions.  There is no outrage on your part in regards to shooting unarmed protesters.  Can you be anymore evil?


----------



## rylah (May 17, 2018)

Billo_Really said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> > The kind of idiot who takes a baby with a heart condition to a Hamas riot.
> ...



Oh so You saw it on TV... how can You be anymore gullible?

_*Nick Boles MP:*
"Yesterday I criticised Israel's handling of the protests at the Gaza border. I should not have been so quick to judge. We now learn that the 50 of those killed were Hamas terrorists. Israel had an absolute right to defend itself against such attacks."_


----------



## Billo_Really (May 17, 2018)

rylah said:


> Oh so You saw it on TV... how can You be anymore gullible?
> 
> _*Nick Boles MP:*
> "Yesterday I criticised Israel's handling of the protests at the Gaza border. I should not have been so quick to judge. We now learn that the 50 of those killed were Hamas terrorists. Israel had an absolute right to defend itself against such attacks."_


Just because someone is a member of a political organization, doesn't give you the right to murder them in cold blood.

You demand Hamas seek peaceful means to end the conflict, but as soon as they show their face in public, you murder them.

Israel doesn't want peace.


----------



## Andylusion (May 17, 2018)

theliq said:


> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> > Shusha said:
> ...



They should fire live rounds into criminals.
Jonathan Conricus on Twitter

Hamas openly admits 50 of the people killed, were Hamas terrorists.


Gaza people flying swastika.

"A doctor at the hospital where Layla was treated said she had a preexisting heart condition that caused her death. He asked not to be identified because he was not authorized to discuss the child’s medical history."​A baby girl dies in the haze of Gaza

Proving once again, even a baby with a heart condition, is not exempt from being used as a pawn to help terrorists.

Look, you an immoral trash person, supporting trash people, who are terrorists.

You are evil, and cruel, and terrible waste of a human being.   Until you stop defending evil, because you yourself are evil, your life will be a waste.


----------



## Andylusion (May 17, 2018)

Billo_Really said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> > Oh so You saw it on TV... how can You be anymore gullible?
> ...



When you are tossing pipe bombs, and sending kites with fire bombs, you are not being murdered anymore.  You are being shot in self defense.

Israel wants peace, and I think they are wrong.  They should want to slaughter these cruel terrorists.

You, are a liar, and a supporter of terrorists.  If anyone shouldn't show their face in public, it's you.


----------



## Billo_Really (May 17, 2018)

Andylusion said:


> When you are tossing pipe bombs, and sending kites with fire bombs, you are not being murdered anymore.  You are being shot in self defense.


And what did the 8 month old baby toss?



Andylusion said:


> Israel wants peace, and I think they are wrong.  They should want to slaughter these cruel terrorists.


You think its okay to murder infants in cold blood, yet you call_ them_ terrorists?



Andylusion said:


> You, are a liar, and a supporter of terrorists.  If anyone shouldn't show their face in public, it's you.


Well, I'm in your face right now, animal Andy, what are you going to do about it?

BTW, what did I lie about?


----------



## Billo_Really (May 17, 2018)

Andylusion said:


> When you are tossing pipe bombs, and sending kites with fire bombs, you are not being murdered anymore.  You are being shot in self defense.


And what did the 8 month old baby toss?



Andylusion said:


> Israel wants peace, and I think they are wrong.  They should want to slaughter these cruel terrorists.


You think its okay to murder infants in cold blood, yet you call_ them_ terrorists?



Andylusion said:


> You, are a liar, and a supporter of terrorists.  If anyone shouldn't show their face in public, it's you.


Well, I'm in your face right now, animal Andy, what are you going to do about it?

BTW, what did I lie about?


----------



## P F Tinmore (May 17, 2018)

Coyote said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...


There were three separate events leading up to the creation of Israel.

The Mandate.
Resolution 181.
The invasion of Palestine.
What did each do or not do and who were the players?


----------



## member (May 17, 2018)

Billo_Really said:


> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> > When you are tossing pipe bombs, and sending kites with fire bombs, you are not being murdered anymore.  You are being shot in self defense.
> ...



_* "BTW, what did I lie about?"*_

the whole thing, lol......you know, the whole 'sticking up for terrorists' thing.

it's ...annoying.


----------



## Andylusion (May 18, 2018)

Billo_Really said:


> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> > When you are tossing pipe bombs, and sending kites with fire bombs, you are not being murdered anymore.  You are being shot in self defense.
> ...


Irrelevant.

There have been several protests in my city.  I never once went to one, because I don't like tear gas.

I made a wise choice, because I moral person that doesn't break the law, and then cry that those mean ol police hit me.

Now that's police.   You go to a military zone with a baby, where they are tossing pipe bombs at military people?

That makes it on you, that you get hurt, or your baby is killed.   100% on you.  Period.

*You think its okay to murder infants in cold blood, yet you call them terrorists?*

You run into a military area where people are fighting with armed military personnel, that's not "murder', you deserve it.    Sorry. You are wrong.

*Well, I'm in your face right now, animal Andy, what are you going to do about it?*

Um.... mock you, laugh at you, and hope you go get yourself killed by police for being a burden on society?    Raise the IQ level of the forum, when you are not here?   Improve the genetic code of the human race, by having you removed from it?

You are a trash person.  You support terrorists.  You are morally corrupt and inferior to the rest of us.

My only goal with you right here and right now, is to rub your face in your own evil.   And then go to sleep for the night.  That's enough for me.

*BTW, what did I lie about?*

Calling a country defending themselves, 'murder', when reporters who interviewed the Palestinians trying to breach the security fence, openly said their goal was to kill Jews.

You have lied about absolutely EVERYTHING.   All you do is lie.   You haven't not lied in this conversation yet.   Like I said, you have the moral standing of Hitler himself.  Do you even know that the baby didn't even die of the tear gas?   The Baby died of a pre-existing heart condition.   A doctor in Palestine admitted it.

Do you know that Hamas openly pushed people to attack the security fence for the very purpose of getting people killed?   Did you know that Hamas itself admitted that 50 of the 60 people were Hamas members?

Yes, I think you did know all that.  I think you know everything you have been saying here is a lie.  You are liar, just like the liars that you are supporting.

It's A Day Of Grieving And More Protests In Gaza

NPR interviews a Palestinian man who was attacking the fence.

INSKEEP: This hospital was just overwhelmed with casualties. Now, for all this suffering, some Palestinians have still been moving toward the border fence today. We're at one of the main protest sites. We've seen people moving in that direction. We've heard scattered gunshots, we presume from Israeli forces. And we've also encountered Ahmed al-Bordani (ph), who is 19 years old, and when we saw him, was holding a homemade white kite.

Would you describe what that is?

AHMED AL-BORDANI: (Through interpreter) This is a kite that's going to go to the Jews.

INSKEEP: He said it's designed to float over the Israelis and catch fire. It was decorated with writing claiming Jerusalem for Palestinians and also with swastikas.

What does this thing mean to you? Why do you put that on there?

AL-BORDANI: (Through interpreter) The Jews go crazy for Hitler when they see it.

INSKEEP: *The Israelis know that people are flying kites with swastikas. They know this, and they use it to discredit you, to say this shows you're bad people. What do you think about that?*

AL-BORDANI: (Foreign language spoken).

INSKEEP: *"This is actually what we want them to know," he says, "that we want to burn them.
*​You support those people, then you are trash like those people, and I'll make sure every time I see you, that I remind you of what you are.

Works for me


----------



## theliq (May 18, 2018)

Andylusion said:


> theliq said:
> 
> 
> > Andylusion said:
> ...


You Ctun's are MAD and Sub Human...as for the Swastika,,,Only in Israel do you see Jewish, NO the Zionist Nazi Party parading around today....Lest we forget...It was the Zionist Party,only that Collaborated with Hitler and the Nazis...sending Millions of Non-Zionist Jews to their Awful Deaths......Zionists ARE MASS MURDERERS,AS I SAID YOU ARE SCUM


----------



## theliq (May 18, 2018)

member said:


> Billo_Really said:
> 
> 
> > Andylusion said:
> ...


The Zionists were/ARE the ORIGINAL TERRORISTS IN Modern Times...FACT


----------



## Hollie (May 18, 2018)

P F Tinmore said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



What invasion are you babbling about?


----------



## theliq (May 18, 2018)

I THINK THE TIME HAS COME FOR ZIONIST JEWS TO NOW LEAVE PALESTINE...THE SOCIAL EXPERIMENT HAS FAILED...RETURN TO YOUR OR YOUR FATHERS COUNTRY OF ORIGIN,AND RE-CONVERT TO THE PEOPLE YOU ORIGINATE FROM...YOU REALLY ARE AN EXAMPLE OF HOW EXPERIMENTATION HAS FAILED....GOODBYE...YOUR INVASION HAS FAILED,YOUR SOCIETY ALBEIT A LIE,HAS FAILED AND YOUR CULT HAS FAILED..YOU GOT AWAY WITH.........MURDER...GO NOW


----------



## Billo_Really (May 18, 2018)

Andylusion said:


> Irrelevant.
> 
> There have been several protests in my city.  I never once went to one, because I don't like tear gas.
> 
> ...


What's with the data dump?


----------



## Andylusion (May 18, 2018)

theliq said:


> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> > theliq said:
> ...



Ah, the trash can speak trash.  Too bad it's still all trash.  Sorry, you won't convince me of your lies.


----------



## Billo_Really (May 18, 2018)

Andylusion said:


> Ah, the trash can speak trash.  Too bad it's still all trash.  Sorry, you won't convince me of your lies.


You wouldn't know a lie if you took it rectally.

I asked you what did I lie about and you couldn't name one thing.  All you could muster was a 3rd grade flame fest of non-sense and gibberish.  

BTW, even if this was a war, which it is not, you still can't target 8 month old babies.  Let alone an innocent protester.


----------



## Billo_Really (May 18, 2018)

Shusha said:


> Yes, I'm being provocative.  (I'm bored with all the ridiculous discussion of people trying to demonize Israel for defending her borders from violent rioters talking about marching to Jerusalem ripping the hearts out of Jews.  Ugh.)


You're so full of shit.  

How can you possibly defend borders you refuse to even define?  And I have repeatedly told you, an occupational force cannot claim self defense.  And you're such a liar!  These are peaceful protests Israeli snipers are provoking into rioting.  Nowhere is there any outrage on your part regarding Israeli atrocities.  You don't respect human rights.  You don't respect international law.  Yet you don't understand why people demonize Israel?

End the goddamn blockade.  That is the reason they are protesting in the first place.  You're causing the violence with your bullshit lie on the reason for the blockade.  It's not the reason for the blockade.  But even if it was, the reason is still bullshit.  So you're preventing Hamas from getting weapons?  That's like saying they don't have a right to defend themselves, which is just horseshit.  Whether Hamas has weapons or not, is none of Israel's goddamn business!

If you think you can tell others what to do on their own property, fuck you!


----------



## Billo_Really (May 18, 2018)

fncceo said:


> Annexing Gaza would be like buying a home in Love Canal.  Just not worth the cost of the cleanup.


Annexing Gaza is the same as Germany annexing Poland.


----------



## Billo_Really (May 18, 2018)

Sixties Fan said:


> That is another thing that will need to be changed.
> 
> Muslim mentality towards the Jews in general.


I'll tell you what needs to be changed, Israeli attitudes towards their fascist government.


----------



## Andylusion (May 18, 2018)

Billo_Really said:


> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> > Ah, the trash can speak trash.  Too bad it's still all trash.  Sorry, you won't convince me of your lies.
> ...



Again, I already answered that.  If you had the mental capacity of 5-year-old, you would be still bickering about the child.

You are simply just trash.  That's all there is too it.  An immoral, evil, trash can of a human being, that supports terrorists.  They are trash. You are trash.  Nothing you say changes that fact.


----------



## Andylusion (May 18, 2018)

Billo_Really said:


> fncceo said:
> 
> 
> > Annexing Gaza would be like buying a home in Love Canal.  Just not worth the cost of the cleanup.
> ...



Really trash can?   You really think Annexing Gaza, is the same as Germany annexing Poland?

Do tell Mr Trash Can, how many rockets did Poland fire into Germany prompting them to attack?
Do tell Trashy Man, how many known terrorists groups did Poland elect into government, whose stated purpose was to wipe Germany, and all Germans out of existent?

I'm sorry Mr Trash-for-Brains, is that a big zero on both?   Why yes it is Mr Useless Trash.  Once again, Mr. Trash Man is lying through his teeth with each and every single Trash filled post of crap.

Just keep talking Trash Boy.    You prove me right with EVERY SINGLE POST.  Keep going.  Keep talking.  Keep making my argument for me.  Makes it easier to mock your Trashy butt.


----------



## fncceo (May 18, 2018)

Billo_Really said:


> End the goddamn blockade. That is the reason they are protesting in the first place.



The blockade of Gaza is a sea blockade (a legal sea blockade according to 'international law').  If the protestors in Gaza are upset about the sea blockade ... why are they trying to illegally enter Israel by land?

Shouldn't they be challenging the blockade that you claim is the cause of their anger?


----------



## Billo_Really (May 18, 2018)

Andylusion said:


> Again, I already answered that.  If you had the mental capacity of 5-year-old, you would be still bickering about the child.
> 
> You are simply just trash.  That's all there is too it.  An immoral, evil, trash can of a human being, that supports terrorists.  They are trash. You are trash.  Nothing you say changes that fact.


You think its okay to target an infant, but call me immoral and evil?  And you say nothing about Israeli terrorism.


----------



## theliq (May 18, 2018)

Andylusion said:


> theliq said:
> 
> 
> > Andylusion said:
> ...


Why would I want to........Murderer


----------



## theliq (May 18, 2018)

fncceo said:


> Billo_Really said:
> 
> 
> > End the goddamn blockade. That is the reason they are protesting in the first place.
> ...


Silly Post,Grow Up


----------



## Billo_Really (May 18, 2018)

fncceo said:


> The blockade of Gaza is a sea blockade (a legal sea blockade according to 'international law').  If the protestors in Gaza are upset about the sea blockade ... why are they trying to illegally enter Israel by land?
> 
> Shouldn't they be challenging the blockade that you claim is the cause of their anger?


No, it is not legal according to international law.  

*U.N. experts say Israel's blockade of Gaza illegal

ICRC says Israel's Gaza blockade breaks law
*​


----------



## Billo_Really (May 18, 2018)

Andylusion said:


> Really trash can?   You really think Annexing Gaza, is the same as Germany annexing Poland?
> 
> Do tell Mr Trash Can, how many rockets did Poland fire into Germany prompting them to attack?
> Do tell Trashy Man, how many known terrorists groups did Poland elect into government, whose stated purpose was to wipe Germany, and all Germans out of existent?
> ...


You talk like a 10 year old.

You cannot acquire territory by force.  It has been illegal since the end of WWII, dumbass.

How many missiles has Israel fired into Gaza?


----------



## P F Tinmore (May 19, 2018)

Billo_Really said:


> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> > Really trash can?   You really think Annexing Gaza, is the same as Germany annexing Poland?
> ...





Billo_Really said:


> You cannot acquire territory by force.


That Israel did in 1948.


----------



## Sixties Fan (May 19, 2018)

P F Tinmore said:


> Billo_Really said:
> 
> 
> > Andylusion said:
> ...


The Arabs acquired Hebron by force in 1929.
The Arabs acquired all of Judea, Samaria and the Jewish Quarter by force in 1948.
The Arabs acquired all of TransJordan by force in 1925.

All land which was going to be part of the Jewish Homeland, with all non Jews living along with the Jews in it.
We saw how it all came out, little by little from 1920 to 1948.

Arabs can expel Jews.
Jews need to just take it.

You are a hypocrite.

And unfortunately, the stupid dance of Hamas attacks and Israel just puts the fire down (instead of destroying the cause of the fire) will be continuing for quite some time.

Until Israel indeed will have to take Gaza back.

Enough is enough, is enough.

Friends of Hamas are dwindling.


----------



## Hollie (May 19, 2018)

P F Tinmore said:


> Billo_Really said:
> 
> 
> > Andylusion said:
> ...



Actually, Israel simply recovered land taken earlier in the Islamist gee-had and occupied by Islamist squatters.


----------



## Billo_Really (May 19, 2018)

Sixties Fan said:


> The Arabs acquired Hebron by force in 1929.
> The Arabs acquired all of Judea, Samaria and the Jewish Quarter by force in 1948.
> The Arabs acquired all of TransJordan by force in 1925.
> 
> ...


You just can't stop lying, can you?  Zionists started the Hebron riots when a group of them went down to the wailing wall and declared it theirs.  Talk about selfish.

There are no Hamas attacks.  That is just made up bullshit to try and justify the deliberate murder of innocent Palestinians.  There is nothing you have said that makes the shooting of Palestinians legal.  You are the ones doing all the killing.  You are the ones pulling the trigger.  Not Hamas.

Arabs have a right to their homeland to.  Their homeland is the one they were living in when Zionist assholes took their land at the point of a gun.  Here are the majority land owners in 1948.







You don't take what you already have.  And Arabs had this land.  You didn't.


----------



## Hollie (May 19, 2018)

Billo_Really said:


> Sixties Fan said:
> 
> 
> > The Arabs acquired Hebron by force in 1929.
> ...



“There are no Hamas attacks.  That is just made up bullshit to try and justify the deliberate murder of innocent Palestinians.”

You might want to actually offer a serious comment or continue to be relegated to that core of identifiable Pom Pom flailers for Islamic terrorists.


----------



## Billo_Really (May 19, 2018)

Hollie said:


> “There are no Hamas attacks.  That is just made up bullshit to try and justify the deliberate murder of innocent Palestinians.”
> 
> You might want to actually offer a serious comment or continue to be relegated to that core of identifiable Pom Pom flailers for Islamic terrorists.


There are no Hamas attacks and there is no proof of Hamas attacks.  That's just more Israeli hasbara.


----------



## Sixties Fan (May 19, 2018)

Billo_Really said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> > “There are no Hamas attacks.  That is just made up bullshit to try and justify the deliberate murder of innocent Palestinians.”
> ...


VIDEO: Hamas official says 50 killed in Gaza riots members of terror-designated group


----------



## Hollie (May 19, 2018)

Billo_Really said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> > “There are no Hamas attacks.  That is just made up bullshit to try and justify the deliberate murder of innocent Palestinians.”
> ...



More of your silly pronouncements.


----------



## Billo_Really (May 19, 2018)

Sixties Fan said:


> VIDEO: Hamas official says 50 killed in Gaza riots members of terror-designated group


So what.  Just because someone is a member of Hamas, doesn't give you the right to kill them.


----------



## Billo_Really (May 19, 2018)

Hollie said:


> More of your silly pronouncements.


What's silly is, you can't prove I'm wrong.


----------



## Hollie (May 19, 2018)

Billo_Really said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> > More of your silly pronouncements.
> ...



Actually, the facts prove you wrong.


----------



## ILOVEISRAEL (May 19, 2018)

Billo_Really said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> > More of your silly pronouncements.
> ...



What’s silly is, you can’t


P F Tinmore said:


> Billo_Really said:
> 
> 
> > Andylusion said:
> ...



Yawn..., Here we go again.. Israel has no right to exist . One more reason why “ Right of Return” is DOA


----------



## Billo_Really (May 19, 2018)

Hollie said:


> Actually, the facts prove you wrong.


Facts take evidence; and you have not provided any.


----------



## Billo_Really (May 19, 2018)

ILOVEISRAEL said:


> Yawn..., Here we go again.. Israel has no right to exist . One more reason why “ Right of Return” is DOA


If you have the right to return, then so do they.


----------



## Hollie (May 19, 2018)

Billo_Really said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> > Actually, the facts prove you wrong.
> ...



The evidence had been provided. You can find it in various threads. 

Pretend the evidence doesn’t exist. It’s what you want.


----------



## Hollie (May 19, 2018)

Billo_Really said:


> ILOVEISRAEL said:
> 
> 
> > Yawn..., Here we go again.. Israel has no right to exist . One more reason why “ Right of Return” is DOA
> ...



Do you need a map of Jordan?


----------



## Billo_Really (May 19, 2018)

Hollie said:


> The evidence had been provided. You can find it in various threads.
> 
> Pretend the evidence doesn’t exist. It’s what you want.


Give me a specific post and I'll go take a look.


----------



## Hollie (May 19, 2018)

Billo_Really said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> > The evidence had been provided. You can find it in various threads.
> ...



No. Do your homework.


----------



## LA RAM FAN (May 19, 2018)

yep time for the murderous zionists to shoot unarmed palestine women and children and retake gaza.lets do that.


----------



## Billo_Really (May 19, 2018)

Hollie said:


> No. Do your homework.


I have.  And it says you're full of shit.


----------



## Hollie (May 19, 2018)

Billo_Really said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> > No. Do your homework.
> ...



So, I’ll take that to mean you’re not going to do your homework.


----------



## Shusha (May 19, 2018)

Billo_Really said:


> Sixties Fan said:
> 
> 
> > The Arabs acquired Hebron by force in 1929.
> ...




Remember when I challenged you that you are actually arguing 1948 occupation, and not 1967 occupation?  And you denied it?

Yeah, this.  Right here.


----------



## Shusha (May 19, 2018)

Billo_Really said:


> So what.  Just because someone is a member of Hamas, doesn't give you the right to kill them.



What would give Israel the right to kill them in self defense?  What would a terrorist have to do in order to be legitimately killed by Israel?

You continually claim that "occupiers have no right to self defense"?  So the answer is nothing, right?  No matter what a member of Hamas did, Israel would have no right to defend themselves using any type of force, let alone lethal force.  

Its a perverse and immoral inversion of the law.


----------



## Billo_Really (May 19, 2018)

Shusha said:


> Remember when I challenged you that you are actually arguing 1948 occupation, and not 1967 occupation?  And you denied it?
> 
> Yeah, this.  Right here.


Listen, you don't tell me what I'm arguing, I tell you!  I know what I'm arguing.  And I know a strawman when I see one.  Why don't you respond to my argument, instead of making one up that you find more palatable?

In answer to your "challenge", WTF does Hamas have to do with 1948?


----------



## Billo_Really (May 19, 2018)

Shusha said:


> What would give Israel the right to kill them in self defense?  What would a terrorist have to do in order to be legitimately killed by Israel?
> 
> You continually claim that "occupiers have no right to self defense"?  So the answer is nothing, right?  No matter what a member of Hamas did, Israel would have no right to defend themselves using any type of force, let alone lethal force.
> 
> Its a perverse and immoral inversion of the law.


If you really are attacked, no one expects you to just sit there and take it.  If someone is shooting at you, you'd be an idiot not to shoot back.  But no one is shooting at you.  No one is attacking you.  No one is a direct threat to your life.  And unless your life is threatened, you cannot use deadly force.  It is your governments policy to shoot any (and all) Palestinians.  Women, children, the disabled, everyone.  No one is innocent.

_*Bernstein:* This notion of the Israeli government that every single person in Gaza is guilty, that there are no innocent people in Gaza. What does that say to you?_
_
*Buttu:* The Israelis have had this policy for quite some time. Avigdor Lieberman has said many times in the past that there are no innocents in Gaza. *This is why we see them deliberately targeting children and people in wheelchairs.  *They can excuse the death of an eight-month-old child who died yesterday from gas inhalation. This process of demonization is what allows them to continue to perpetrate a massacre.
_​And here they address one of your claims...

_*Bernstein:* Some people refer to this as a war between the Israelis and the Palestinians. But there have been no Israeli casualties, none. How can you consider that a war?_
_
*Buttu:* It is not only zero casualties, nobody has been even remotely injured. The Israelis are gunning Palestinians down. It is like shooting fish in a barrel. *These are people who are nowhere near this electrified fence that the Israelis claim to be defending*.  This is a one-sided massacre...
_​And this is my gift to you.  This is what these protests are all about...

_*Buttu:* What the Israelis don’t seem to understand is that many Palestinians feel they have nothing left to live for. The Palestinians are coming out en masse and saying, *“We’ve lived through fifty-one years of this.  Enough! We want to be able to go home.”* Others are saying, *“We’re tired of the blockade. We just want to live a normal life.”* These protests are sustained by the will of a people who want to see a better life.  Nobody in this world is going to stay quiet when their freedom is being denied. To expect that somehow the Palestinians are just going to sit and wait for people like Trump to come up with a deal is simply farcical._​You have no right denying them that freedom.


----------



## Hollie (May 19, 2018)

Billo_Really said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > What would give Israel the right to kill them in self defense?  What would a terrorist have to do in order to be legitimately killed by Israel?
> ...


----------



## theliq (May 19, 2018)

Sixties Fan said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Billo_Really said:
> ...


IDIOT COMMENT


----------



## theliq (May 19, 2018)

Shusha said:


> Billo_Really said:
> 
> 
> > So what.  Just because someone is a member of Hamas, doesn't give you the right to kill them.
> ...


Shusha Y do you MURDER PEOPLE,INNOCENT PALISTINIANS


----------



## Billo_Really (May 19, 2018)

Hollie said:


>


You constantly bitch about Pallywood productions and then you post a piece of propaganda bullshit like that.  I stopped watching after I heard the Israeli accuse her of blaming everyone else and not taking responsibility for her own actions.  That really floored me!  Israel has never taken responsibility for anything it has done to the Palestinians.  That's like Charles Manson arguing the sanctity of life to a pro-choicer.

In regards to human shields,  there is no evidence those people on the roof were directed to stay there by Hamas.  Furthermore, Amnesty International found no evidence of Hamas using human shields.

_E.g., in Operation Cast Lead: “Contrary to repeated allegations by Israeli officials of the use of ‘human shields,’ Amnesty found no evidence that Hamas or other Palestinian fighters directed the movement of civilians to shield military objectives from attacks.” – Amnesty International
_​AI did find many instances of the IDF using Palestinian human shields.

_Amnesty did, however, "find ample evidence that Israel used them.”
_​They are called, _*"johnnies"*_.

*Testimony 1 – Human Shield*
_
People are called “Johnnie. They’re Palestinian civilians” in Gaza neighborhoods. *In checking out houses, “we send the neighbor in, the ‘Johnnie,*’ and if there are armed men inside, we (use) ‘pressure cooker’ procedures….to get them out alive….to catch the armed men.” When necessary, combat helicopters are called in to fire anti-tank missiles at civilian homes. Then send a “Johnnie” in to check for dead and wounded. 

Human shields were also used to check for booby-traps and perform other services. *“Sometimes the force would enter while placing rifle barrels on a civilian’s shoulder, advancing into the house and using him as a human shield. *Commanders said these were the instructions and we had to do it.”
_​That's far worse than a bunch of people standing on a roof.
​


----------



## Billo_Really (May 19, 2018)

An occupier claiming self defense, is the equivalent of an assassin, after breaking in to his targets' home and finding the home owner putting up more resistance than anticipated,  telling the cops I had no choice but to kill him, for I was in fear for my life.


----------



## Andylusion (May 19, 2018)

Billo_Really said:


> Sixties Fan said:
> 
> 
> > VIDEO: Hamas official says 50 killed in Gaza riots members of terror-designated group
> ...



Yeah, actually it does.  You live with criminals, you die with criminals.

I get it, you love terrorists, and will defend them until they kill you.

The rest of us are not immoral and evil scum like you.   Sorry, but you really are a flat out lesser person, than all the good people in this world.

Flat out.... hear it again.... if you are member of a terrorist organization, and you are attempting to break through a boarder on purpose with the intent to kill the people on the other side..... yes.  You deserve to die, and I don't care when you do.


----------



## Andylusion (May 19, 2018)

theliq said:


> Sixties Fan said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



Translation:

I AM A TERRORIST SUPPORTER!  COMMENTS BASED ON HISTORICAL FACT ARE IDIOTIC!


No you are fool.  That's why we are mocking your stupidity.


----------



## Andylusion (May 19, 2018)

theliq said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > Billo_Really said:
> ...



Because they are not innocent.  They are attacking Israeli.   They stated openly to the press, they intended to murder Israelis.
There is nothing innocent about that, and shooting people who intend to murder others, is not bad.  

It's a good thing, and the Israelis need to keep doing that, until all would-be murderers are dead.


----------



## Shusha (May 19, 2018)

Billo_Really said:


> Listen, you don't tell me what I'm arguing, I tell you!  I know what I'm arguing.  And I know a strawman when I see one.  Why don't you respond to my argument, instead of making one up that you find more palatable?
> 
> In answer to your "challenge", WTF does Hamas have to do with 1948?



The problem I have with your argument is that you keep claiming to support a two state solution, with both Israeli and Palestinian sovereignty, along the Green Line.  But you keep bringing up arguments which align with a rejection of ANY Jewish sovereignty.  It makes your argument inconsistent or deliberately deceptive.


----------



## Shusha (May 19, 2018)

[QUOTE="Billo_Really, post: 19958684, member: 2873"If you really are attacked, no one expects you to just sit there and take it.  If someone is shooting at you, you'd be an idiot not to shoot back.  But no one is shooting at you.  No one is attacking you.  No one is a direct threat to your life.  And unless your life is threatened, you cannot use deadly force.  It is your governments policy to shoot any (and all) Palestinians.  Women, children, the disabled, everyone.  No one is innocent. [/quote]

Your post amounts to:

Principle #1 -- If you are attacked you are an idiot not to shoot back.

Principle #2 -- Only direct threats to your life permit lethal force.

Principle #3 -- Israel has a policy of shooting all Palestinians based solely on their "Palestinianness".  


I agree with your Principle #1.  It is the foundation of the moral and legal idea of self-defense.  If someone attacks you, you are an idiot not to shoot back.  So the dispute we would have is whether or not Israel is "really" being attacked. 

I agree somewhat less in your Principle #2.  I believe it is permissible to use force to protect not only direct, immediate threats to one's own life, but also to protect and defend other's lives and against threats to other's lives.  So the dispute we would have is whether there is a credible threat to Israeli lives.  

There is also the argument that it is legally and morally permissible to defend one's sovereign territory from an invader.  You seem to believe that Gaza has every right to not only defend itself from an invader ("occupier").  Israel should have the same rights, but you persist in saying that "occupiers" have no right to defend themselves.  Which is bullshit.  

Your Principle #3 is just an immoral demonization of Israel.  And a blatant rejection of reality.  Israel has done an exceptional job of being extremely precise (not perfect) of only killing those who pose an immediate threat to life or to sovereignty.


----------



## Shusha (May 19, 2018)

theliq said:


> Shusha Y do you MURDER PEOPLE,INNOCENT PALISTINIANS



Innocent people should never be targeted.  

When confronted with a group of attackers who are dispersed and hiding within a group of civilians, it is the responsibility of the attacked to do their best to target only those who are actively attacking and not the civilians.  The standard is not perfection, but a reasonable effort to avoid civilian deaths.  Israel has done this with a degree of success that is far and away better than any other army on the planet.  ~90% success.  Other armies manage to achieve a success rate of only ~30-50%, at best.  

Attacking forces have the absolute responsibility to differentiate themselves from civilians.  

Attacking forces have an absolute responsibility to remove civilians from areas of conflict, where possible.  And it is certainly possible here.


----------



## ILOVEISRAEL (May 19, 2018)

Shusha said:


> theliq said:
> 
> 
> > Shusha Y do you MURDER PEOPLE,INNOCENT PALISTINIANS
> ...




The Arabs didn’t accept the “ Green Line” before 1967. Israel doesn’t have to accept them now.


----------



## Shusha (May 20, 2018)

ILOVEISRAEL said:


> The Arabs didn’t accept the “ Green Line” before 1967. Israel doesn’t have to accept them now.



Oh, be clear, I'm not suggesting the Green Line has any current validity.  I'm just pointing out Billo_Really's inconsistent argument where he claims only Israeli "occupation" over the Green Line, but makes constant arguments to a 1948 "occupation".


----------



## P F Tinmore (May 20, 2018)

Shusha said:


> ILOVEISRAEL said:
> 
> 
> > The Arabs didn’t accept the “ Green Line” before 1967. Israel doesn’t have to accept them now.
> ...


The Green Line divides 1948 occupied Palestine from 1967 occupied Palestine.


----------



## Shusha (May 20, 2018)

P F Tinmore said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > ILOVEISRAEL said:
> ...



You think it's all occupied. 

Totally different from Billonwho thinks it's only partially occupied.


----------



## RoccoR (May 20, 2018)

RE:  Is it time for Israel to re-take Gaza?
※→  et al,

For the purposes of the Gaza Strip and the West Bank, the "Armistice Line" _(AKA:  Green Line)_ is "no longer in force."   Acceptance is moot.

The Lines are for historical purposes only.  



Shusha said:


> ILOVEISRAEL said:
> 
> 
> > The Arabs didn’t accept the “ Green Line” before 1967. Israel doesn’t have to accept them now.
> ...


*(COMMENT)*

Both Armistice Agreements make it clear that the Armistice Lines were not representative of final borders/boundaries.

Article II of the Israeli-Egyptian Treaty The permanent boundary between Egypt and Israel.  Whereas Article 3 of the Israeli-Jordanian Treaty recognizes the international boundary between Jordan and Israel as delimited with reference to the boundary definition under the Mandate.

The argument concerning the definition of the Occupation is representative of the confusion between two competing leadership groups within the general Arab Israeli Palestinians.

•  One group claims that the 1948 war was triggered by the Israeli occupation of territory within the territory formerly under the British Mandate.  That would be _(as they have said so many times)_, from the river to the sea.

•  One group makes the claim that the 1967 border, defined as the Armistice Lines up to 4 June 1967,  are the internationally-recognized border between Israel and the occupied State of Palestine.​
The Arab Palestinians do not have a single political position with any authority.  And you have to be very careful that you understand what faction is speaking.  They all do not have a common agenda when it comes to internationally recognized borders.

Similarly, you will have seen over time, that the discussion over who has control within the Gaza Strip; and the two factions with different agendas.  HAMAS flip-flops back and forth (as does the International Community).  

•  Some say that if the Israelis enter the Gaza Strip to secure law and order, than that is an invasion.​
But that is different than what the actual Customary and IHL stipulate. 

•  It cannot be an invasion if the Israelis are already considered to be occupying the Gaza Strip; because for the Gaza Strip Territory is considered occupied it must actually be placed under the authority of the Israeli Defense Force.​
*(REFERENCE DOCUMENTS)*

In both referenced Armistice Agreement, Article XII (2) stipulates that the Armistice "shall remain in force until a peaceful settlement between the Parties is achieved.  Peace has been achieved between the concerned parties. 

•  The Jordan-Israeli Peace Treaty (1994)  •
■   *Armistice Israel-Jordan (3 April 1949)*  ■​
•  Egypt and Israel Treaty of Peace (1979)  •
■  *Armistice Egyptian-Israel (23 February 1949)*  ■​
Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## theliq (May 20, 2018)

ILOVEISRAEL said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > theliq said:
> ...


Then don't pretend over the years that you would and therefore you don't mind the Palestinians,other Arabic nations plus Iran to get back the Palestinians LAND BACK,even by your own admission you have said that the Green Line existed and a WAR maybe the right thing to revert this land back to its rightful owner.....plus all Jewish businesses that have helped the Zionists worldwide are obviously fair GAME....much like Trumps threats to European Companies who trade with Iran.....Is that really what you want ILOVE !!!!!!!!!steve


----------



## theliq (May 20, 2018)

Andylusion said:


> theliq said:
> 
> 
> > Sixties Fan said:
> ...


The ZIONISTS ARE TERRORISTS AND SUPPORTED AND ARMED HAMAS


----------



## Andylusion (May 20, 2018)

theliq said:


> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> > theliq said:
> ...



You have the right to be wrong, Trash boy.


----------



## Humanity (May 20, 2018)

There seems to be a use of the "Green Line" by Israel that is somewhat like having your cake and eating it...

Team Israel members appear to agree that the "Green Line" is NOT the border, yet 'defends' the "Green Line" vehemently as their border.

Which is it?


----------



## RoccoR (May 20, 2018)

RE:  Is it time for Israel to re-take Gaza?
※→  Humanity,  et al,

The Israelis DO NOT claim that the "Green Line" is a border _(Israels or that of the Arab Palestinians)_.  That is obvious.  To suggest that it is "the" border or "a' border of any kind for anyone, would create a conflict over the Capital and some of the security barrier runs.

The use of the Green Line is of no value in setting the demarcations for the Arab Palestinian entity --- separating the sovereignty of Israel.



Humanity said:


> There seems to be a use of the "Green Line" by Israel that is somewhat like having your cake and eating it...
> 
> Team Israel members appear to agree that the "Green Line" is NOT the border, yet 'defends' the "Green Line" vehemently as their border.
> 
> Which is it?


*(COMMENT)*

I say again, Israel does not defend the 1949 Green Line as their border.   That is an Arab Palestinian piece of disinformation.  It is the case that some segments of the current sovereign lines of demarcation happen to overlay portions of the old dissolved Green Line, but the actual sovereignty begins with the border controls.

This is one of Israels primary issues.

The Arab Palestinians would like the old Green Line to be a hard and fast border.  That would actually give them back some territorial options.  But the Arab Palestinians cannot claim title because they have very very little absolute government control over which they could claim territorial sovereignty.  

Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## TheParser (May 20, 2018)

*IMHO:
*
1. In answer to the thread title's question: NO, of course not.

2. Friend and foe alike agree that the Israelis are extremely intelligent and innovative people.

a. They can certainly find a non-lethal way to stop future border incursions, which Hamas promises to have more of.


3. Hamas scored a public relations bonanza with the death of those 50+ (technically) unarmed protesters.

4. Israel is a democracy, so more such deadly encounters are out of the question.

*****

In 1960 in South Africa in a town called Sharpeville, (Caucasian) authorities killed more than 60 unarmed (black) protesters. Some historians tell us that it was a turning point in the fight against apartheid.

I think that the killing of those 50+ Palestinians (including that baby) may be some kind of turning point in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.


----------



## admonit (May 20, 2018)

TheParser said:


> *IMHO:
> *
> 1. In answer to the thread title's question: NO, of course not.
> 
> ...


Palestinians in Gaza can dream about pogroms in Israeli towns and villages, but anyone who will try to implement this devilish plan by breaching the border will be shot. Period. There is a general consensus in Israeli society about it.


----------



## Billo_Really (May 20, 2018)

Andylusion said:


> Yeah, actually it does.  You live with criminals, you die with criminals.
> 
> I get it, you love terrorists, and will defend them until they kill you.
> 
> ...


It's obvious you don't embrace American values?  But you do like being a little Israeli bitch!  How do you "break through" an undefined border, with a 300 meter buffer zone on your own property?


----------



## Sixties Fan (May 20, 2018)

Billo_Really said:


> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> > Yeah, actually it does.  You live with criminals, you die with criminals.
> ...


Keep dreaming up your excuses, Billo.

They work only in your mind.


----------



## Billo_Really (May 20, 2018)

Andylusion said:


> Because they are not innocent.  They are attacking Israeli.   They stated openly to the press, they intended to murder Israelis.
> There is nothing innocent about that, and shooting people who intend to murder others, is not bad.
> 
> It's a good thing, and the Israelis need to keep doing that, until all would-be murderers are dead.


You're a "would-be murderer", should someone shoot you?


----------



## Hollie (May 20, 2018)

Billo_Really said:


> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> > Yeah, actually it does.  You live with criminals, you die with criminals.
> ...



That’s pretty darn funny. Embracing American values is defined by embracing Islamic terrorist values.

Otherwise, there’s nothing undefined about the Israeli border. It’s defended by a military force which would not allow your Islamic terrorist heroes to breach.

It’s really remarkable how you internet gee-had wannabes are so quick to emulate your hamas terrorist “leadership”. You’re very quick to urge the vacant-minded minions to “take one for your man-god, Muhammud”, but both you and the Hamas leadership are nowhere to be seen when the in-coming starts.


----------



## Billo_Really (May 20, 2018)

Shusha said:


> The problem I have with your argument is that you keep claiming to support a two state solution, with both Israeli and Palestinian sovereignty, along the Green Line.  But you keep bringing up arguments which align with a rejection of ANY Jewish sovereignty.  It makes your argument inconsistent or deliberately deceptive.


How can I be for _"both Israeli and Palestinian sovereignty"_ *AND* reject _"any Jewish sovereignty"_, at the same time?  I'll put it another way, how can I_ reject _Jewish sovereignty and be_ for _a two state solution?  

Much like your other arguments, this one makes no sense, either.


----------



## Sixties Fan (May 20, 2018)

Billo_Really said:


> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> > Because they are not innocent.  They are attacking Israeli.   They stated openly to the press, they intended to murder Israelis.
> ...


Your empty words continue to be meaningless. You live in an alternative world and that is your business, not Israel's.

Israel will continue to do what it needs to protect all of its population from those who want to kill them.

Here is why the added buffer zone exists.  Ask Egypt why they had to add a buffer zone and even increase it later.
-----

*The barrier was largely torn down by Palestinians at the beginning of the Al-Aqsa Intifada in September 2000, followed by many terror attacks.*[6] The barrier was rebuilt between December 2000 and June 2001. A one-kilometer buffer zone was added, in addition to new high technology observation posts. Soldiers were also given new rules of engagement,[6] which, according to _Ha'aretz_, allow soldiers to fire at anyone seen crawling there at night illegally into Israeli territory.[7] Palestinians attempting to cross the barrier into Israel by stealth have been shot and killed.[8]

The barrier's effectiveness prompted a shift in the tactics of Palestinian militants who commenced firing Qassam rockets and mortars over the barrier.[6][9]

The barrier has been effective in preventing terrorists and suicide bombers from entering Israel from Gaza. Since 1996, virtually all suicide bombers trying to leave Gaza have detonated their charges at the barrier's crossing points and were stopped while trying to cross the barrier elsewhere.[10][11] From 1994 until 2004 a suicide bomber originating from within the Gaza Strip successfully carried out an attack in Israel (the March 14, 2004 attack in Ashdod).[12]

Israel–Gaza barrier - Wikipedia


----------



## P F Tinmore (May 20, 2018)

Hollie said:


> Otherwise, there’s nothing undefined about the Israeli border. It’s defended by a military force which would not allow your Islamic terrorist heroes to breach.


A line of goons with guns does not make a border.


----------



## Andylusion (May 20, 2018)

Billo_Really said:


> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> > Yeah, actually it does.  You live with criminals, you die with criminals.
> ...



Yes, as a matter of fact, I do.

Undefined border.... and yet there is a big fence.... which seems to define a border.

You realize of course, the whole reason there is a border, is because the Gaza people were killing Isrealis.

Let me give your tiny little brain, a theoretical..... do you think if Mexicans were rushing into the US, killing people, that we'd have a wall along the border years, if not decades ago?

Yes we would.  And we'd be shooting people who tried to breach the border.  Guarantee it.

So why do you have a problem with Israel taking a much more restrained approach?   Because your a dirty terrorist supporting trash of a human being.   Simple as that.


----------



## Andylusion (May 20, 2018)

P F Tinmore said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> > Otherwise, there’s nothing undefined about the Israeli border. It’s defended by a military force which would not allow your Islamic terrorist heroes to breach.
> ...



Yeah, well try and cross it, when those goons with guns start shooting you.   Sure looks like a border to me.


----------



## Andylusion (May 20, 2018)

Billo_Really said:


> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> > Because they are not innocent.  They are attacking Israeli.   They stated openly to the press, they intended to murder Israelis.
> ...



You have the right to be an ignorant fool who is consistently wrong.

As for trying to shoot me, come try it.  Fool.  If this is the best argument you have for supporting terrorist, then you have no argument.   Keep talking fool.


----------



## P F Tinmore (May 20, 2018)

Sixties Fan said:


> Ask Egypt why they had to add a buffer zone and even increase it later.


Egypt put its buffer on its own side of the border,

Unlike the Israeli freeloaders.


----------



## Billo_Really (May 20, 2018)

Shusha said:


> Your post amounts to:
> 
> Principle #1 -- If you are attacked you are an idiot not to shoot back.
> 
> ...


You are not being attacked if no one is hurt, injured or killed.  You are not being attacked if your border fence is on someone else's property.  You are not being attacked, if you have a buffer zone that is on someone else's property.  Burning a tire, is not an attack.  A peaceful protest, is not an attack.  Throwing a rock, is not a threat to your life, or your fence.

Snipers shooting people in cold blood, is an attack.  Drones dropping fire bombs on tents, is an attack.  Shooting tear gas at babies, is an attack.  Shooting people fishing and farming, is an attack.  Collectively punishing 1.5 million people, is an attack.




Shusha said:


> I agree somewhat less in your Principle #2.  I believe it is permissible to use force to protect not only direct, immediate threats to one's own life, but also to protect and defend other's lives and against threats to other's lives.  So the dispute we would have is whether there is a credible threat to Israeli lives.


Wrong! It has to be an imminent threat to your life, before deadly force is permissible.  Making up bullshit reasons to kill people, is just pure evil.  You make such a fine German.




Shusha said:


> There is also the argument that it is legally and morally permissible to defend one's sovereign territory from an invader.  You seem to believe that Gaza has every right to not only defend itself from an invader ("occupier").  Israel should have the same rights, but you persist in saying that "occupiers" have no right to defend themselves.  Which is bullshit.


You are not defending yourself when you occupy someone else's property.  You are initiating the violence.




Shusha said:


> Your Principle #3 is just an immoral demonization of Israel.  And a blatant rejection of reality.  Israel has done an exceptional job of being extremely precise (not perfect) of only killing those who pose an immediate threat to life or to sovereignty.


Is a guy in a wheel chair a threat to your life, or Israeli sovereignty?  Is an 8 month old baby, a threat to your life, or Israeli sovereignty?  Is someone fishing or farming, a threat to your life, or Israeli sovereignty?


----------



## Andylusion (May 20, 2018)

P F Tinmore said:


> Sixties Fan said:
> 
> 
> > Ask Egypt why they had to add a buffer zone and even increase it later.
> ...



On their side of the border.

Right.... Um... that's Israel's land.   There is no other country there.  All of it belongs to Israel.  All of it.


----------



## Andylusion (May 20, 2018)

Billo_Really said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > Your post amounts to:
> ...



Just shut up. You are so full of crap.  We've pointed out a dozen times, if you are stupid enough to bring a child into a military area, where people are throwing pipe bombs, then it's you.    No excuses.  Sorry, keep talking and keep being wrong.

Even rodents take their young away from danger, not towards it.   If you have less morals than a rodent, then you deserve to die.


----------



## Sixties Fan (May 20, 2018)

P F Tinmore said:


> Sixties Fan said:
> 
> 
> > Ask Egypt why they had to add a buffer zone and even increase it later.
> ...


Egypt is not attacked the way Israel.  And Gaza knows that Egypt will not think twice about putting an end to Hamas and what is going on in Gaza.

Egypt did put an end to all the tunnels going into Gaza, and would not hesitate to shoot to kill anyone from Gaza with explosives, molotov, even rocks being hurled at their soldiers.
Their orders would be to shoot and kill each and everyone, unlike what Israel has been doing.

Keep crying about the "buffer zone" and not Hamas which keep them starving and wanting to leave.


----------



## Billo_Really (May 20, 2018)

Shusha said:


> Oh, be clear, I'm not suggesting the Green Line has any current validity.  I'm just pointing out Billo_Really's inconsistent argument where he claims only Israeli "occupation" over the Green Line, but makes constant arguments to a 1948 "occupation".


When you lie about what others say, you don't really have an argument to speak of.


----------



## Billo_Really (May 20, 2018)

Andylusion said:


> You have the right to be wrong, Trash boy.


I thought I was Trash boy?  Fuck, man!


----------



## Hollie (May 20, 2018)

P F Tinmore said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> > Otherwise, there’s nothing undefined about the Israeli border. It’s defended by a military force which would not allow your Islamic terrorist heroes to breach.
> ...



Regarding the Gaza mini-caliphate, I would agree. That terrorist mob was little more than a..... you know...... Islamic terrorist mob which did more damage to Gaza infrastructure, and to themselves, than to Israel. 

In Gaza, setting fire to their own gas lines to fuel the flames of protest

How cute that you flail your Pom Poms in celebration of abject incompetence and stupidity. 

However, we need to remember that the professional military defending the Israeli border selectively culled Hamas terrorists (your Islamic terrorist heroes), from large crowds of Islamic terrorist yutes. 

We cull bad bulls from the herd. Why should islamic terrorists be treated differently?


----------



## Sixties Fan (May 20, 2018)

Billo_Really said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > Your post amounts to:
> ...


You are a nutcase who only repeats the Hamas side of it.

You have proven that you do not care who these people are, why they went to the protest, how they came to die, etc.

You can bring up the wheelchair bound man who wanted to die for martyrdom (Islam is all about keeping land or becoming a Martyr, at least the Palestinians have been since the Jews recreated their ancient homeland Nation.  Never did it against the Ottoman Turkish Muslims.   One wonders why  ),
or the 8 month old, who should not have been brought to the protest and Gaza doctors themselves say they do not know what it died of, as it had a health issue to begin with......ALL you want.

You are totally against any Israel defense against anyone attacking its sovereignty, so you latch on to all of these excuses of people who are not doing what they have been doing as first announced.  Protest peacefully.


Peaceful protest do not require the police or army to do anything, because the people are just marching, singing, dancing, holding signs, etc.


Violent protests (which is what Hamas planned as they took over  the March) is hurling rocks, molotov cocktails, plant explosives, breach the fence and enter a country's sovereign territory carrying machetes and other weapons.  

Play all of the cards you like.

Israel will continue to protect its borders the best way it knows how.  And all the decent people in the world know that Israeli soldiers to not shoot at will.


----------



## Sixties Fan (May 20, 2018)

Andylusion said:


> Billo_Really said:
> 
> 
> > Shusha said:
> ...


Let us all just ignore him.  Nothing better when dealing with a bully.


----------



## Billo_Really (May 20, 2018)

Sixties Fan said:


> Keep dreaming up your excuses, Billo.
> 
> They work only in your mind.


Are you saying there is no buffer zone?


----------



## Billo_Really (May 20, 2018)

Hollie said:


> That’s pretty darn funny. Embracing American values is defined by embracing Islamic terrorist values.
> 
> Otherwise, there’s nothing undefined about the Israeli border. It’s defended by a military force which would not allow your Islamic terrorist heroes to breach.
> 
> It’s really remarkable how you internet gee-had wannabes are so quick to emulate your hamas terrorist “leadership”. You’re very quick to urge the vacant-minded minions to “take one for your man-god, Muhammud”, but both you and the Hamas leadership are nowhere to be seen when the in-coming starts.


How much jihad are you facing in the Valley............_Girl?_


----------



## Sixties Fan (May 20, 2018)

Billo_Really said:


> Sixties Fan said:
> 
> 
> > Keep dreaming up your excuses, Billo.
> ...


You are so cute at playing your games.  They are meaningless.

You say nothing. And is deserving of no more answers.

Your games are empty.

Delegitimizing anything that Israel does to protect its territory and population is all you and Tinmore are about.

You dream your dreams, Israel continues to defend its reality.



Am Israel Chai !


----------



## Billo_Really (May 20, 2018)

Sixties Fan said:


> Your empty words continue to be meaningless. You live in an alternative world and that is your business, not Israel's.
> 
> Israel will continue to do what it needs to protect all of its population from those who want to kill them.
> 
> ...


You just got done saying the buffer zone was just my imagination, running away with me?

Man, you waffle more than IHOP!


----------



## Hollie (May 20, 2018)

Billo_Really said:


> Sixties Fan said:
> 
> 
> > Keep dreaming up your excuses, Billo.
> ...



It’s actually an Islamic terrorist *get-some* zone.

Grab your Korans and a Molotov cocktail and _be the zone_.


----------



## Billo_Really (May 20, 2018)

Andylusion said:


> Yes, as a matter of fact, I do.
> 
> Undefined border.... and yet there is a big fence.... which seems to define a border.
> 
> ...


Americans believe in the rule of law, Israel does not.


----------



## Billo_Really (May 20, 2018)

Andylusion said:


> You have the right to be an ignorant fool who is consistently wrong.
> 
> As for trying to shoot me, come try it.  Fool.  If this is the best argument you have for supporting terrorist, then you have no argument.   Keep talking fool.


I'll put it another way, if you are shooting someone else, do they have a right to kill you?


----------



## Hollie (May 20, 2018)

Billo_Really said:


> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> > Yes, as a matter of fact, I do.
> ...



I can go 2/5 for pointless melodrama.


----------



## Billo_Really (May 20, 2018)

Andylusion said:


> Just shut up. You are so full of crap.  We've pointed out a dozen times, if you are stupid enough to bring a child into a military area, where people are throwing pipe bombs, then it's you.    No excuses.  Sorry, keep talking and keep being wrong.
> 
> Even rodents take their young away from danger, not towards it.   If you have less morals than a rodent, then you deserve to die.


Americans believe in freedom of speech and freedom of expression.  Values you apparently eschew.


----------



## Billo_Really (May 20, 2018)

Sixties Fan said:


> You are a nutcase who only repeats the Hamas side of it.
> 
> You have proven that you do not care who these people are, why they went to the protest, how they came to die, etc.
> 
> ...


These people didn't just "die".  They were murdered in cold blood by the most immoral army in the world.


----------



## Billo_Really (May 20, 2018)

Sixties Fan said:


> Let us all just ignore him.  Nothing better when dealing with a bully.


I'm told I "deserve to die", yet you call me the bully?


----------



## Sixties Fan (May 20, 2018)

Billo_Really said:


> Sixties Fan said:
> 
> 
> > You are a nutcase who only repeats the Hamas side of it.
> ...


While planting explosives at the fence, shooting AK-47 rifles into Israel, throwing molotov cocktails, sending incendiary kites, and kite-bombs into Israeli territory.

Sure....The UK, USA, Canada, even Mexico would just allow all of these things to happen and simply call it "Peaceful demonstration.


----------



## Billo_Really (May 20, 2018)

Sixties Fan said:


> You are so cute at playing your games.  They are meaningless.
> 
> You say nothing. And is deserving of no more answers.
> 
> ...


You are not protecting your property, when on someone else's land.


----------



## Sixties Fan (May 20, 2018)

Billo_Really said:


> Sixties Fan said:
> 
> 
> > Just shut up. You are so full of crap.  We've pointed out a dozen times, if you are stupid enough to bring a child into a military area, where people are throwing pipe bombs, then it's you.    No excuses.  Sorry, keep talking and keep being wrong.
> ...


I'm told I "deserve to die", yet you call me the bully?[/QUOTE]
Pathetic Billo, who said YOU deserve to die on this thread?

We have witnessed many times how you change what people have said to suit what you want people to believe.

Give me the post where anyone said YOU deserved to die.

tick tock


----------



## Billo_Really (May 20, 2018)

Hollie said:


> It’s actually an Islamic terrorist *get-some* zone.
> 
> Grab your Korans and a Molotov cocktail and _be the zone_.


I like it.  You get one half point for creativity.


----------



## Hollie (May 20, 2018)

Billo_Really said:


> Sixties Fan said:
> 
> 
> > You are a nutcase who only repeats the Hamas side of it.
> ...



Actually, there is nothing to indicate any Islamics were killed in cold blood. 

You’re getting rather frantic and have been reduced to hurling some rather nonsensical claims. 

Maybe a nice hot cup of tea and a relaxing coma?


----------



## Billo_Really (May 20, 2018)

Hollie said:


> I can go 2/5 for pointless melodrama.


I thought you were ignoring me?  So you even lied about that?


----------



## Sixties Fan (May 20, 2018)

Billo_Really said:


> Sixties Fan said:
> 
> 
> > You are so cute at playing your games.  They are meaningless.
> ...


The soldiers are on the Israeli side.  The Fence is on the Israeli side.

Try another delusion of yours as to what Israeli, and only Israeli soldiers are allowed to do and what they are not allowed to do to defend any invasion by those who want to kill Israelis.


----------



## Sixties Fan (May 20, 2018)

Billo_Really said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> > I can go 2/5 for pointless melodrama.
> ...


More drama from the "Lover of Israel "


----------



## Hollie (May 20, 2018)

Billo_Really said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> > I can go 2/5 for pointless melodrama.
> ...



You’re befuddled about so many things.


----------



## ILOVEISRAEL (May 20, 2018)

Billo_Really said:


> Sixties Fan said:
> 
> 
> > You are so cute at playing your games.  They are meaningless.
> ...



It does not belong to the Palestinians and it never will. Jordan had it before 1967. “ 67 Borders” were not recognized then by “ International Law” as shown by the U.N. deliberately leaving the “ buffer zone”
 and. Israel is not under any obligation to recognize them now. East Jerusalem will never be under Arab Rule Again .


----------



## Billo_Really (May 20, 2018)

Sixties Fan said:


> Pathetic Billo, who said YOU deserve to die on this thread?
> 
> We have witnessed many times how you change what people have said to suit what you want people to believe.
> 
> ...


It was a post you were responding to by Andylusion.

Do you remember this?



https://postimages.org/app


----------



## Sixties Fan (May 20, 2018)

Billo_Really said:


> Sixties Fan said:
> 
> 
> > Pathetic Billo, who said YOU deserve to die on this thread?
> ...


Deal with Andylusion's wishes then.

Did Andy mean you, as in Billo, or did Andy refer to those attempting to breach the borders and kill Israelis?

Now, do not get confused by both.

You are not important at all for anyone to wish dead.  As long as you are not attempting to breach any country's sovereignty and attempting to kill its citizens.  Any country.

And the military of any of those countries will take care of you if you ever attempt anything like that, as so many Hamas operatives have.


----------



## Shusha (May 20, 2018)

Billo_Really said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > The problem I have with your argument is that you keep claiming to support a two state solution, with both Israeli and Palestinian sovereignty, along the Green Line.  But you keep bringing up arguments which align with a rejection of ANY Jewish sovereignty.  It makes your argument inconsistent or deliberately deceptive.
> ...



Well, you can't.  Hence, me pondering if you are just being sloppy in your argumentation or if you are being deliberately deceptive.


----------



## Shusha (May 20, 2018)

Billo_Really said:


> You are not being attacked if no one is hurt, injured or killed.


If I have the capability to prevent anyone from being hurt, injured or killed, and someone threatens me with deadly force, MUST I permit someone to be hurt, injured or killed before I can return the deadly force?



> It has to be an imminent threat to your life, before deadly force is permissible.


Well, I disagree.  But you have just removed all justification for Gaza or Arab Palestinians using any sort of deadly force, by your own standards.


----------



## Billo_Really (May 20, 2018)

Sixties Fan said:


> The soldiers are on the Israeli side.  The Fence is on the Israeli side.
> 
> Try another delusion of yours as to what Israeli, and only Israeli soldiers are allowed to do and what they are not allowed to do to defend any invasion by those who want to kill Israelis.


How can the fence be on the Israeli side, when you haven't even defined where your borders are?

Israeli soldiers are not allowed to commit crimes against humanity or follow immoral and illegal orders.  You need to check your own hypocrisy when talking about who "they" want to kill; killing Palestinians gives you orgasms.


----------



## Billo_Really (May 20, 2018)

Sixties Fan said:


> More drama from the "Lover of Israel "


Of coarse I'm a "Lover of Israel".  I love everything about.............._the Israeli left.  _JVP rocks!  So does Rabbi's for Human Rights.  You, on the other hand, like shooting tear gas at 8 month old babies.


----------



## Shusha (May 20, 2018)

Billo_Really said:


> You are not protecting your property, when on someone else's land.



So, out of curiosity, you would totally be okay with Israel protecting her property, including shooting people, if only the buffer zone between Gaza and the actual fence was on Israel's side of the Line?


----------



## Billo_Really (May 20, 2018)

ILOVEISRAEL said:


> It does not belong to the Palestinians and it never will. Jordan had it before 1967. “ 67 Borders” were not recognized then by “ International Law” as shown by the U.N. deliberately leaving the “ buffer zone”
> and. Israel is not under any obligation to recognize them now. East Jerusalem will never be under Arab Rule Again .


All you need to know is that its not Israel's.


----------



## Billo_Really (May 20, 2018)

Sixties Fan said:


> Deal with Andylusion's wishes then.
> 
> Did Andy mean you, as in Billo, or did Andy refer to those attempting to breach the borders and kill Israelis?
> 
> ...


You don't have the right to kill people you don't like.

Grow up!


----------



## Billo_Really (May 20, 2018)

Shusha said:


> Well, you can't.  Hence, me pondering if you are just being sloppy in your argumentation or if you are being deliberately deceptive.


Never do you look at what you've done?


----------



## Billo_Really (May 20, 2018)

Shusha said:


> If I have the capability to prevent anyone from being hurt, injured or killed, and someone threatens me with deadly force, MUST I permit someone to be hurt, injured or killed before I can return the deadly force?
> 
> 
> Well, I disagree.  But you have just removed all justification for Gaza or Arab Palestinians using any sort of deadly force, by your own standards.


How does an 8 month old baby threaten your life?


----------



## ILOVEISRAEL (May 20, 2018)

Billo_Really said:


> ILOVEISRAEL said:
> 
> 
> > It does not belong to the Palestinians and it never will. Jordan had it before 1967. “ 67 Borders” were not recognized then by “ International Law” as shown by the U.N. deliberately leaving the “ buffer zone”
> ...



Not the Palestinians either. It was part of Jordan, they initiated the 67 War and lost. How come those who drink the Pro Palestinian Kool-Aid never questioned why the U.N. who was supposed to enforce “ International Law” left?  Does anyone in their right minds believe the Arabs would have cared about “ International Law” if they had won?  Just more proof that “ Law” isn’t worth the piece of paper it’s written on


----------



## Billo_Really (May 20, 2018)

Shusha said:


> So, out of curiosity, you would totally be okay with Israel protecting her property, including shooting people, if only the buffer zone between Gaza and the actual fence was on Israel's side of the Line?


Yes.


----------



## Hollie (May 20, 2018)

Billo_Really said:


> Sixties Fan said:
> 
> 
> > Deal with Andylusion's wishes then.
> ...



Your Korans make it a religious duty.


----------



## ILOVEISRAEL (May 20, 2018)

Billo_Really said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > If I have the capability to prevent anyone from being hurt, injured or killed, and someone threatens me with deadly force, MUST I permit someone to be hurt, injured or killed before I can return the deadly force?
> ...



Just like the Fogel Family threatened theirs


----------



## Hollie (May 20, 2018)

Billo_Really said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > If I have the capability to prevent anyone from being hurt, injured or killed, and someone threatens me with deadly force, MUST I permit someone to be hurt, injured or killed before I can return the deadly force?
> ...


Not that silly claim again?


----------



## P F Tinmore (May 20, 2018)

ILOVEISRAEL said:


> Not the Palestinians either. It was part of Jordan, they initiated the 67 War and lost.


Not so. It is illegal to annex occupied territory so their attempt failed.


----------



## ILOVEISRAEL (May 20, 2018)

P F Tinmore said:


> ILOVEISRAEL said:
> 
> 
> > Not the Palestinians either. It was part of Jordan, they initiated the 67 War and lost.
> ...



Obviously not. If it weren’t for the 67 War Jordan would still have E. Jerusalem , W. Bank and Egypt would still have Gaza. Please tell us why prior to the 67 War the U.N. who was supposed to be the enforcer left. 

    Nasser vowed to destroy Israel. If he suceeded “ International Law” wouldn’t even be a consideration for the U.N. Just more proof it isn’t worth the paper it’s written on


----------



## Sixties Fan (May 20, 2018)

Billo_Really said:


> Sixties Fan said:
> 
> 
> > Deal with Andylusion's wishes then.
> ...


You are transferring what Christians and Muslims have been doing to Jews for the past 1700 years unto Israel.

It does not work.

Red and reread your last sentence.  It applies solely to the ones who insist that Israel is shooting at Arabs "just because".


----------



## Sixties Fan (May 20, 2018)

Billo_Really said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > If I have the capability to prevent anyone from being hurt, injured or killed, and someone threatens me with deadly force, MUST I permit someone to be hurt, injured or killed before I can return the deadly force?
> ...


Israel did not kill the baby.  It had health issues prior to the parents going to the border and was in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Gaza doctors themselves say they do not know what the baby has died from, yet.  So stop being judge, jury and executioner when it comes to why each and every one of those at the protests died.

As usual, you are just setting tires on fire, just as the Arabs did.


----------



## Hollie (May 20, 2018)

P F Tinmore said:


> ILOVEISRAEL said:
> 
> 
> > Not the Palestinians either. It was part of Jordan, they initiated the 67 War and lost.
> ...



Strange how what is, and is not illegal is very subjective for Islamics. 

We’re to believe that there is nothing illegal about Islamic terrorists attempting to invade a sovereign nation and kill its citizens, yet it is illegal, and somehow immoral for that sovereign nation to defend its borders from the Islamic terrorist invaders.


----------



## Shusha (May 20, 2018)

Billo_Really said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > If I have the capability to prevent anyone from being hurt, injured or killed, and someone threatens me with deadly force, MUST I permit someone to be hurt, injured or killed before I can return the deadly force?
> ...



So NOW you are arguing that an eight month old baby was deliberately targeted and killed by the IDF snipers?  Have you got a link to that?  Or are you just appealing to emotion to avoid answering the question?


----------



## Sixties Fan (May 20, 2018)

P F Tinmore said:


> ILOVEISRAEL said:
> 
> 
> > Not the Palestinians either. It was part of Jordan, they initiated the 67 War and lost.
> ...


Israel was talking about in who's hand was that land before 1967.
It definitely was NOT in Palestinian hands, and the Palestinians (a nationality only born in 1964)   never demanded of Egypt and Jordan to have any of that land back before it was lost to Israel.

Jordan and Egypt got involved in wanting more of the Mandate for Palestine, now Israel, they lost.
They tried again in 1973 and lost again.

They stopped crying about it, time for the now "Palestinians" to start doing the same.


----------



## toomuchtime_ (May 20, 2018)

P F Tinmore said:


> ILOVEISRAEL said:
> 
> 
> > Not the Palestinians either. It was part of Jordan, they initiated the 67 War and lost.
> ...


No it's not.  The land is occupied only because it has not been annexed.  Jerusalem, the Golan are no longer occupied because they have been annexed.


----------



## Shusha (May 20, 2018)

Billo_Really said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > So, out of curiosity, you would totally be okay with Israel protecting her property, including shooting people, if only the buffer zone between Gaza and the actual fence was on Israel's side of the Line?
> ...



Okay, since the fence in on the Green Line, as far as I understand it, if anyone attempts to breach the fence, thereby crossing into Israeli sovereign territory, it is permissible for Israel to use force, including lethal force, to protect her property, according to your standards.  So any deaths which occurred at the fence are legitimate.

The next question is lethal threats from weapons which by their nature can breach the fence, such as rifles, IEDs, pipebombs, molotovs, rocks, kites, etc.  Is it permissible for Israel to use force, including lethal force to protect the lives of her people and her property against those types of attacks which can cross the border, while the attacker does not?


----------



## P F Tinmore (May 20, 2018)

Sixties Fan said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > ILOVEISRAEL said:
> ...


The fact is that Jordan did not lose the West Bank to Israel. It was not theirs to lose.


----------



## P F Tinmore (May 20, 2018)

toomuchtime_ said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > ILOVEISRAEL said:
> ...


It is illegal to annex occupied territory.


----------



## Sixties Fan (May 20, 2018)

P F Tinmore said:


> Sixties Fan said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...


They were in charge of that land they took.  Therefore once they lost it, They are the ones who lost it and NO ONE else.

Jordan attacked and took.
Jordan attacked again and lost.

Clear now?


----------



## Sixties Fan (May 20, 2018)

P F Tinmore said:


> toomuchtime_ said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...


Jerusalem and the Golan are not negotiable.  They have been annexed.

End of story.

Never will Israel give their part of the Golan so that Muslims will again shoot down at Israelis.

Jerusalem is united as it had been for 3000 years before Jordan took the  JEWISH   QUARTER and expelled all the Jews.

The JEWISH  quarter has been returned to Israel and the Jews.

End of story


----------



## Shusha (May 20, 2018)

Billo_Really said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > Well, you can't.  Hence, me pondering if you are just being sloppy in your argumentation or if you are being deliberately deceptive.
> ...



What have I done?

Look, anytime you bring up issues involving territory within the Green Line (which you claim to accept as Israel), you are making an argument against your own argument.  So when you whine about Arab land ownership pre-1948 (which, btw, has nothing to do with sovereignty) you are arguing against Israel's rights to that pre-1948, inside the Green Line territory.  Which is an argument against your own argument that Israel has full sovereign rights to all the territory inside the Green Line.  

I point out again, that I not only disagree with you, but you are factually incorrect about the meaning of the Green Line, but at the very least, I expect you to be consistent with your own argument.  

If you want to convince me that you believe in Israel's rights within the Green Line, then you have to not argue about any territory except that which is over the Green Line.


----------



## P F Tinmore (May 20, 2018)

Sixties Fan said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Sixties Fan said:
> ...


Perfectly clear. Jordan could not annex the West Bank.


----------



## toomuchtime_ (May 20, 2018)

P F Tinmore said:


> toomuchtime_ said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...


No, it isn't.  In fact, that's how most of the countries in the ME were formed.  Historically, the Golan was not part of Syria until the British and French decided to make it so while they were occupying the former Ottoman Empire, and the Sinai was never part of Egypt until the British decided to make it so after they built the Suez Canal to that the canal could be better protected, and Lebanon was created by the French in order to give the Catholics in Syria more power.  All these things were done while the land was held in belligerent occupation, and all are recognized as legitimate by the "international community".  If Israel were not a Jewish state, there would be no complaints about Israel annexing the land it captured from Jordan.


----------



## P F Tinmore (May 20, 2018)

toomuchtime_ said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > toomuchtime_ said:
> ...


You are thinking like a Zionist.  Jordan occupied Palestinian land in 1948. Israel took over that occupation in 1967.


----------



## toomuchtime_ (May 20, 2018)

P F Tinmore said:


> toomuchtime_ said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...


You're not thinking at all.  The land was under occupation by Britain until 1948, and Britain had earlier created the state of Jordan, then known as Trans-Jordan, while Britain occupied that land.  Before that, the land had been occupied by the Ottoman Empire for centuries.  The people who have now chosen to name themselves Palestinians have never occupied the land.  If it is illegitimate to annex occupied land than most of the ME is illegitimate, but people like you only complain about Israel because it is the only Jewish state.


----------



## P F Tinmore (May 20, 2018)

toomuchtime_ said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > toomuchtime_ said:
> ...


This is sooooo confusing to you. Nobody annexed anything after WWI except Israel. And that was illegal.


----------



## toomuchtime_ (May 20, 2018)

P F Tinmore said:


> toomuchtime_ said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...


You mean it's inconvenient for you that nearly all the countries in the ME were created by foreigners while they were under belligerent occupation, and only Israel was created by the people who lived there.  Rightly seen Lebanon, Syria, Iraq and Jordan are all illegitimate because they were created by European colonialists while under belligerent occupation, and only Israel is legitimate because it was created by the people who lived there and not by foreigners.


----------



## rylah (May 20, 2018)

P F Tinmore said:


> toomuchtime_ said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



If it wasn't illegal for Jordan to annex lands then it isn't for Israel.
Both are essentially the only _'Palestinian governments' _with full sovereignty over the land.


----------



## P F Tinmore (May 20, 2018)

rylah said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > toomuchtime_ said:
> ...


I didn't say that.


----------



## rylah (May 20, 2018)

P F Tinmore said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



What You said was a falsehood.
Jordan and Israel are the only real sovereigns, and biggest effective Palestinian governments to date. 

You tried to exclude Jordan because it contradicts Your claim.


----------



## Billo_Really (May 20, 2018)

ILOVEISRAEL said:


> Not the Palestinians either. It was part of Jordan, they initiated the 67 War and lost. How come those who drink the Pro Palestinian Kool-Aid never questioned why the U.N. who was supposed to enforce “ International Law” left?  Does anyone in their right minds believe the Arabs would have cared about “ International Law” if they had won?  Just more proof that “ Law” isn’t worth the piece of paper it’s written on


So you're saying_ "might makes right"? 
_
That's very German of you!


----------



## Billo_Really (May 20, 2018)

Hollie said:


> Your Korans make it a religious duty.


I wouldn't know, I'm a Catholic.


----------



## Billo_Really (May 20, 2018)

ILOVEISRAEL said:


> Just like the Fogel Family threatened theirs


It's not the same, because the majority of Palestinians opposed the murders...

_"63% of Palestinians opposed" _​
...whereas, no Israelis are outraged over the death of the 8 month old infant.


----------



## Hollie (May 20, 2018)

Billo_Really said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> > Your Korans make it a religious duty.
> ...



Now that you better understand one of the most basic precepts underpinning Islamist ideology, you will be better prepared to understand the motivations that drive Islamism.


----------



## Billo_Really (May 20, 2018)

Hollie said:


> Not that silly claim again?


It's not a claim, it's a question.


----------



## Billo_Really (May 20, 2018)

Sixties Fan said:


> You are transferring what Christians and Muslims have been doing to Jews for the past 1700 years unto Israel.
> 
> It does not work.
> 
> Red and reread your last sentence.  It applies solely to the ones who insist that Israel is shooting at Arabs "just because".


When you make up bullshit reasons to kill people, it is because you WANT to.


----------



## Billo_Really (May 20, 2018)

Sixties Fan said:


> Israel did not kill the baby.  It had health issues prior to the parents going to the border and was in the wrong place at the wrong time.
> 
> Gaza doctors themselves say they do not know what the baby has died from, yet.  So stop being judge, jury and executioner when it comes to why each and every one of those at the protests died.
> 
> As usual, you are just setting tires on fire, just as the Arabs did.


You shot tear gas at it!  Who the fuck does that?  You shoot at fishermen.  You shoot at farmers.  Who the fuck does that?

BTW, burning tires is not an attack on Israel.


----------



## Shusha (May 20, 2018)

Billo_Really said:


> You shot tear gas at it!  Who the fuck does that?



People who are trying to control violent riots.  Who the fuck brings babies into a violent riot?

Are you trying to claim that Israel has no right to use non-lethal self-defense either?


----------



## Billo_Really (May 20, 2018)

Shusha said:


> So NOW you are arguing that an eight month old baby was deliberately targeted and killed by the IDF snipers?  Have you got a link to that?  Or are you just appealing to emotion to avoid answering the question?


Don't give me this "deer in the headlights look", of coarse it was targeted.

_an IDF spokesperson bragged in a now-deleted tweet, "We arrived prepared and with precise reinforcements. Nothing was carried out uncontrolled; everything was accurate and measured, *and we know where every bullet landed” *_​


----------



## Hollie (May 20, 2018)

Billo_Really said:


> Sixties Fan said:
> 
> 
> > Israel did not kill the baby.  It had health issues prior to the parents going to the border and was in the wrong place at the wrong time.
> ...



“You shot tear gas at it!”

Classic pointlessness. By “it” you mean an 8 month old child. And no, there’s nothing to suggest that “it” was targeted.

There seems to be something truly repulsive about bringing an infant to a war zone. However, there seems to be something that connects Islamic “_Mother of the Year for Sheer Negligence and Incompetence - Islamist ideology_” award nominees.



Maryam Abu Qandil, a three-month-old baby brought to the Gaza "Return March," is the focus of an April 6 report by the Palestinian Authority TV channel. Her mother, Nasrin Abu Yusuf, said that she is the youngest baby to come to the "Return March," and added that "we shall remain...


"Mother Brings Three-Month-Old Baby to Gaza "Return March," Declares: We Will March to Our Villages - Martyrs in the Millions - - Scenes from Gaza "Return March""


----------



## Billo_Really (May 20, 2018)

Shusha said:


> Okay, since the fence in on the Green Line, as far as I understand it, if anyone attempts to breach the fence, thereby crossing into Israeli sovereign territory, it is permissible for Israel to use force, including lethal force, to protect her property, according to your standards.  So any deaths which occurred at the fence are legitimate.


A significant army crossing into Israel, is a threat; a person crossing into Israel, is not necessarily one.  What if the person is seeking asylum?  You going to kill them anyway?  The fact that you are jumping through hoops to legitimize murder, says a lot about you.




Shusha said:


> The next question is lethal threats from weapons which by their nature can breach the fence, such as rifles, IEDs, pipebombs, molotovs, rocks, kites, etc.  Is it permissible for Israel to use force, including lethal force to protect the lives of her people and her property against those types of attacks which can cross the border, while the attacker does not?


You cannot use deadly force to protect property.  And a fence erected on land Israel has no sovereign title to, is fair game.


----------



## Shusha (May 20, 2018)

Billo_Really said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > So NOW you are arguing that an eight month old baby was deliberately targeted and killed by the IDF snipers?  Have you got a link to that?  Or are you just appealing to emotion to avoid answering the question?
> ...



The baby in question died of an existing heart condition.  Not a bullet.  Do better.


----------



## Billo_Really (May 20, 2018)

Shusha said:


> What have I done?
> 
> Look, anytime you bring up issues involving territory within the Green Line (which you claim to accept as Israel), you are making an argument against your own argument.  So when you whine about Arab land ownership pre-1948 (which, btw, has nothing to do with sovereignty) you are arguing against Israel's rights to that pre-1948, inside the Green Line territory.  Which is an argument against your own argument that Israel has full sovereign rights to all the territory inside the Green Line.
> 
> ...


I don't give a shit about Israels rights and I don't give a shit about Israelis.  In order to give a shit, you have to care.  And I don't.  I also don't give a shit about Palestinians, either.  This conflict doesn't affect me.  It doesn't affect my daily life in any way.  So why would I care?  Why would I lie?  There is nothing in this conflict for me.  There is nothing to gain.  Nothing to lose. 

So when I tell you, you are on the wrong side of history, believe it baby, because that is the truth.

BTW, states don't have rights, people do.


----------



## Shusha (May 20, 2018)

Billo_Really said:


> A significant army crossing into Israel, is a threat; a person crossing into Israel, is not necessarily one.


But we agree even a single person can be a threat, yes?  If they were armed with an IED, yes?  So we agree that there has to be a threat, and if there is a threat, one can use force, even lethal force, yes?  



> You cannot use deadly force to protect property.  And a fence erected on land Israel has no sovereign title to, is fair game.


Israel has every right to defend her sovereign title on her side of the fence (which is the Green Line).  

And if you are not permitted to use lethal force to defend property then no Arab Palestinian has a right to use lethal force.  By your own standard.


----------



## Billo_Really (May 20, 2018)

Hollie said:


> Now that you better understand one of the most basic precepts underpinning Islamist ideology, you will be better prepared to understand the motivations that drive Islamism.


I understand you are an Islamophobe.


----------



## theliq (May 20, 2018)

Shusha said:


> Billo_Really said:
> 
> 
> > A significant army crossing into Israel, is a threat; a person crossing into Israel, is not necessarily one.
> ...


LATEST NEWS IN...RATIFIED BY THE UN......THE CANAANITES ARE GIVEN BACK THEIR ANCESTERAL HOME...ALL ZIONISTS HAVE BEEN DEPORTED OR MURDERED IN THE SAME WAY THEY TREATED THE PALESTINIANS from 70 odd years ago until today,moreover ILLEGALY TOOK OVER THIS AREA OF LAND....THAT THEY CLAIMED THEY OWNED ...BUT NEVER DID....Canaanite King Liq 1st....said the Zionists were basically "A WASTE OF SPACE" and had terrorized  this area for over 70 years...King Liq did mention how Real Jews are part of our family and are  welcome but the Zionists who almost suceeded in wiping out the very race THEY WERE IMPERSONATING were not....YOU SEE YOU ZIONISTS YOU ARE READING A MIRROR IMAGE OF WHAT YOU ARE AND WHO YOU ARE....Your treatment of the Palestinians and Real Jews..THE TWO SEMITIC PEOPLES IS A WAR CRIME. AGAINST HUMANITY......I am the liq I can sort ya,and execute the terms of the Zionist Exit...AND THE NATURAL  BALANCE RESTORED


----------



## Billo_Really (May 20, 2018)

Shusha said:


> People who are trying to control violent riots.  Who the fuck brings babies into a violent riot?
> 
> Are you trying to claim that Israel has no right to use non-lethal self-defense either?


You shot tear gas at a baby!

*You shot tear gas at a baby!*
*
You shot tear gas at a baby!
*
Is there any atrocity you won't try to defend, Heir Goebbels's?


----------



## Billo_Really (May 20, 2018)

Hollie said:


> “You shot tear gas at it!”
> 
> Classic pointlessness. By “it” you mean an 8 month old child. And no, there’s nothing to suggest that “it” was targeted.
> 
> ...


So now you are disrespecting the accuracy of Israeli snipers?


----------



## Shusha (May 20, 2018)

Billo_Really said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > People who are trying to control violent riots.  Who the fuck brings babies into a violent riot?
> ...



Israel shot tear gas at a violent riot. What was a baby doing at a violent riot?  

The lengths you guys go to avoid any Palestinian responsibility for their own well-being is appalling.


----------



## Billo_Really (May 20, 2018)

Shusha said:


> The baby in question died of an existing heart condition.  Not a bullet.  Do better.


And of coarse, tear gas inhalation had nothing to do with it?

The baby didn't "die"; it was murdered.


----------



## Billo_Really (May 20, 2018)

Shusha said:


> But we agree even a single person can be a threat, yes?  If they were armed with an IED, yes?  So we agree that there has to be a threat, and if there is a threat, one can use force, even lethal force, yes?
> 
> 
> Israel has every right to defend her sovereign title on her side of the fence (which is the Green Line).
> ...


You want the right to kill anyone you don't like?


----------



## Billo_Really (May 20, 2018)

Shusha said:


> Israel shot tear gas at a violent riot. What was a baby doing at a violent riot?
> 
> The lengths you guys go to avoid any Palestinian responsibility for their own well-being is appalling.


You created a riot by shooting at peaceful protesters.

Name me the last time you took responsibility for anything?


----------



## ILOVEISRAEL (May 20, 2018)

Billo_Really said:


> ILOVEISRAEL said:
> 
> 
> > Just like the Fogel Family threatened theirs
> ...



Not true! Those murders of an entire family and the near decapitation of the infant was not opposed!!


----------



## Hollie (May 20, 2018)

Billo_Really said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > The baby in question died of an existing heart condition.  Not a bullet.  Do better.
> ...



Such silly melodrama.


----------



## Hollie (May 20, 2018)

Billo_Really said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > Israel shot tear gas at a violent riot. What was a baby doing at a violent riot?
> ...



Israel took responsibility for preventing Islamic terrorists from breaching its  border. 

That was the last time I can think of off hand. How’ bout you?


----------



## deanrd (May 20, 2018)

Sad.  Right wingers advocating mass murder.


----------



## Shusha (May 20, 2018)

Billo_Really said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > But we agree even a single person can be a threat, yes?  If they were armed with an IED, yes?  So we agree that there has to be a threat, and if there is a threat, one can use force, even lethal force, yes?
> ...



Israel needs the right to defend her boundaries against violent people who intend to mirder her citizens and remove her sovereignty. 

Why wouldn't she have that right?


----------



## Shusha (May 20, 2018)

Billo_Really said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > Israel shot tear gas at a violent riot. What was a baby doing at a violent riot?
> ...




It was never a peaceful protest. And the violence was invited by the government of Gaza.


----------



## Billo_Really (May 21, 2018)

ILOVEISRAEL said:


> Not true! Those murders of an entire family and the near decapitation of the infant was not opposed!!


I just gave you the link that said it was; do you have any proof it wasn't?


----------



## Billo_Really (May 21, 2018)

Hollie said:


> Israel took responsibility for preventing Islamic terrorists from breaching its  border.
> 
> That was the last time I can think of off hand. How’ bout you?


No you didn't, you blamed Hamas.

Stop trying to burn the candle at both ends.


----------



## Shazoomx4 (May 21, 2018)

Big no no... We don't need this and don't want this...


----------



## Billo_Really (May 21, 2018)

Shusha said:


> Israel needs the right to defend her boundaries against violent people who intend to mirder her citizens and remove her sovereignty.
> 
> Why wouldn't she have that right?


How do you defend a boundary that is not determined?  You said so yourself.  The boundaries have not been determined.  So how do you defend something that is not located?

And the reason these people are violent, is because you won't stop shooting them.  You won't stop making their lives a daily hell.  You won't stop trashing them 24/7.  In the past 4 weeks, you accused them of their intention to murder your citizens.  However, none of your citizens have been murdered.  None of your citizens, have been hurt or injured. Yet in this same time period, you've killed 65 of them and injured almost 3000.

How the fuck can they remove the sovereignty of the only nuclear power in the ME?  You're the most militarized country on the planet and they're a population under occupation that is not even allowed to have weapons to defend themselves.  How the fuck are they going to take your sovereignty?  Goddammit, get real and stop spewing bullshit!


----------



## Shazoomx4 (May 21, 2018)

Billo_Really said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > Israel needs the right to defend her boundaries against violent people who intend to mirder her citizens and remove her sovereignty.
> ...


Hamas make they life hell... the life of the Arabian ppl in Israel is a good life as a Jew's life.. and I know personally Muslim Arabians guys. When I learn with them my first degree and I still have a connection with them...

About the 65... they start a war.. more them 50 of them was a terrorist from Hamas, so first of all start of saying you've killed 15.. 
and when you start a war people can die...  the easy solution, don't start a war...


----------



## Billo_Really (May 21, 2018)

Shusha said:


> It was never a peaceful protest. And the violence was invited by the government of Gaza.


You shoot anyone in the buffer zone.  The buffer zone is not in Israel.  The protests were peaceful until you made them violent.


No one was attacking your precious fence, yet you still shot them.


----------



## Shazoomx4 (May 21, 2018)

Billo_Really said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > It was never a peaceful protest. And the violence was invited by the government of Gaza.
> ...


Again, when you start a violent war, ppl can die..


----------



## Billo_Really (May 21, 2018)

Shazoomx4 said:


> Hamas make they life hell... the life of the Arabian ppl in Israel is a good life as a Jew's life.. and I know personally Muslim Arabians guys. When I learn with them my first degree and I still have a connection with them...
> 
> About the 65... they start a war.. more them 50 of them was a terrorist from Hamas, so first of all start of saying you've killed 15..
> and when you start a war people can die...  the easy solution, don't start a war...


Protesting is not an act of war.  Just because your in Hamas, that doesn't make you a terrorist.  And just because someone is a member of Hamas, it doesn't give you the right to kill them.

Palestinian-Arabs living in Israel are treated like 2nd class citizens.  

It is nice to see you personally know Muslims.  That takes a lot of courage for an Israeli to admit that.  Good for you!


----------



## Billo_Really (May 21, 2018)

Shazoomx4 said:


> Again, when you start a violent war, ppl can die..


It's not a war and they didn't start it.  They are a population under occupation of a foreign force.  That's not a war.


----------



## Shazoomx4 (May 21, 2018)

Billo_Really said:


> Shazoomx4 said:
> 
> 
> > Hamas make they life hell... the life of the Arabian ppl in Israel is a good life as a Jew's life.. and I know personally Muslim Arabians guys. When I learn with them my first degree and I still have a connection with them...
> ...


Yes, it was a war. Hamas is a terrorist organization, maybe not for you (I don't know where you from, But for Israel, so we have to deal with it like a terrorist organization)

"Palestinian-Arabs living in Israel are treated like 2nd class citizens. "   man... you are maybe not live in Israel That is not true... I know a lot of ppl who know personally Muslims peoples... I know that a lot of jews ppl are afraid of Muslims and because of that, we don't have a lot of connections...
I am not going to lie and say that every jew like every Muslim, But, the racists jew who hate Arabian because of them Arabians or because they Muslims are A minority...
But to say they are "2nd class citizens" That just a sinner to reality
And don't make us only the devil, racists are from both sides...


----------



## Shazoomx4 (May 21, 2018)

Billo_Really said:


> Shazoomx4 said:
> 
> 
> > Again, when you start a violent war, ppl can die..
> ...


Israel leveled Gaza for pease... Buy unfortunately they chose a war instead


----------



## Hollie (May 21, 2018)

Billo_Really said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > It was never a peaceful protest. And the violence was invited by the government of Gaza.
> ...



Why were your Islamic terrorist heroes sending teens to their war zone?


----------



## P F Tinmore (May 21, 2018)

Hollie said:


> Billo_Really said:
> 
> 
> > Shusha said:
> ...


It is Israel's war zone. There was no war before Israel.


----------



## Shazoomx4 (May 21, 2018)

P F Tinmore said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> > Billo_Really said:
> ...


You have to learn history a little bit... please... just a little...


----------



## admonit (May 21, 2018)

Shazoomx4 said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Hollie said:
> ...


He doesn't need to learn history, he creates it.


----------



## ILOVEISRAEL (May 21, 2018)

Billo_Really said:


> ILOVEISRAEL said:
> 
> 
> > Not true! Those murders of an entire family and the near decapitation of the infant was not opposed!!
> ...



I remember when the attack happened; There wasn’t any “ outcry” or public condemnation .


----------



## Hollie (May 21, 2018)

P F Tinmore said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> > Billo_Really said:
> ...



Indeed, Nice duck. The facts remain that Arabs-Moslems perpetrated acts of war when they announced their intention to breach the Israeli border and used weapons to attempt that act.

Indeed, Arab-Moslem wars / pogroms against the Jews predate Arafat's invention of "Pal'istanians".

It's all in your korans.


----------



## Shazoomx4 (May 21, 2018)

admonit said:


> Shazoomx4 said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...


it's not a good thing in this context you know...


----------



## P F Tinmore (May 21, 2018)

Shazoomx4 said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Hollie said:
> ...


Where was the war before the creation of Israel?


----------



## P F Tinmore (May 21, 2018)

Hollie said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Hollie said:
> ...


You are starting history in the middle.


----------



## Hollie (May 21, 2018)

P F Tinmore said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



You are reinventing history as you go along.


----------



## Hollie (May 21, 2018)

P F Tinmore said:


> Shazoomx4 said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



You should educate yourself to the Arab-Islamist pogroms.


----------



## Shazoomx4 (May 21, 2018)

P F Tinmore said:


> Shazoomx4 said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



Just everywere here.how many naitions rule this place anf fall to another?


----------



## P F Tinmore (May 21, 2018)

Shazoomx4 said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Shazoomx4 said:
> ...


Everybody came to attack Palestine. When did they go someplace and attack others?


----------



## Sixties Fan (May 21, 2018)

P F Tinmore said:


> Shazoomx4 said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...


Another post today where you are not making sense.

If you are talking about the "Palestinians", they are Arabs, they are Muslims.

Since the 7th century they went out of Arabia to conquer and populate all of what is now the Middle East and some of Europe.

Look at everywhere in the now called Middle East.

Majority Arabs everywhere.

Arabs are from Arabia
Copts are from Egypt
Kurds are from Mesopotamia
Assyrians are from Syria
Berbers are from Morocco.

And all of them have been forced by the invading Arabs to speak Arabic, just as the British colonies speak English.


----------



## member (May 21, 2018)

Billo_Really said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > Israel needs the right to defend her boundaries against violent people who intend to mirder her citizens and remove her sovereignty.
> ...



*"You're the most militarized country on the planet and they're a population under occupation that is not even allowed to have weapons to defend themselves. . .blah-de-dah..."*

- *"most militarized  country on the planet"* [_true or not_] what restraint !

- "_*not even allowed to have weapons to defend themselves"*

sounds like scolding a child- "  no, no, you're not allowed to play with those matches" -----

*not allowed* because: you know how terrorists are..._


 - too funny. *"not allowed to defend themselves..."*


----------



## montelatici (May 21, 2018)

Sixties Fan said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Shazoomx4 said:
> ...



No Arabs are people that speak arabic, Arabs can be from anywhere.  Palestinians are not Arabians. Arabians are from Arabia. Palestinians are former Samaritans, Jews etc. that converted to Christianity, then Islam. 

The Arabians populated no where, the desert could not support very many people so the Arabians were few and were only rulers, they did not do settler colonnization, because there were not enough of them.


*"Native Population almost wholly descended from Jews who had been forcibly converted to Christianity, and later Islam, not Arab in origin..."*

*Native Population almost wholly descended from Jews who had been forcibly converted*


----------



## Shazoomx4 (May 21, 2018)

montelatici said:


> Sixties Fan said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



Palestinian are arabian ppl ..


----------



## Shusha (May 21, 2018)

Billo_Really said:


> In the past 4 weeks, you accused them of their intention to murder your citizens.  However, none of your citizens have been murdered.  None of your citizens, have been hurt or injured. Yet in this same time period, you've killed 65 of them and injured almost 3000.



What kind of argument is that?  The whole point of defending yourself is to prevent yourself from getting hurt or killed.  You don't wait until someone hurts you or kills you to defend yourself.  You address a threat when its a threat.


----------



## montelatici (May 21, 2018)

Shazoomx4 said:


> montelatici said:
> 
> 
> > Sixties Fan said:
> ...



Not at all, as they are not from Arabia.


----------



## rylah (May 21, 2018)

montelatici said:


> Shazoomx4 said:
> 
> 
> > montelatici said:
> ...



Yes they are.


----------



## montelatici (May 21, 2018)

rylah said:


> montelatici said:
> 
> 
> > Shazoomx4 said:
> ...



No they are the native people of Palestine.  

In Palestine the "small" number of Arab invaders who had been imported by the Arabian conquerors were wiped out by disease. Thus the "myth" of the "Palestinian Arab" descending "from the Arab conquerors" appears to be factually incorrect for all but perhaps a few. Supporting Hogarth, Hitti, and Lewis, the Reverend Parkes found thatDuring the first century after the Arab conquest the caliph and governors of Syria and The Land [Palestine] ruled almost entirely over Christian and Jewish subjects. Apart from the bedouin [nomads], in the earliest days the only Arabs west of the Jordan (not all of whom were themselves Muslims) were the garrisons... "

Native Population almost wholly descended from Jews who had been forcibly converted


----------



## Shusha (May 21, 2018)

Enough.  At this point in time, and in the context of the CURRENT conflict, all this bullshit about blood purity and crap is irrelevant.  

Both people.  There can't be an end of conflict without recognition of both people having equal rights.


----------



## Shusha (May 21, 2018)

And I'm going to add this:

For all the people who insist that Arab Palestinians have the SOLE rights to the land:  Tinmore, Linda Sarsour, the government of Gaza, the international community, whoever, wherever, whatever....its done.  

There is no more discussion of sole rights.  Both peoples have rights.  A two State solution is the only moral solution.  A one State Israel solution will become the only viable solution ONLY if the Arab Palestinians refuse to meet us in the sandbox.  THAT is what the Arab Palestinians SHOULD be worried about.  Can we meet them in the sandbox?  NOT Can we make Israel go away.


----------



## Coyote (May 21, 2018)

montelatici said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> > montelatici said:
> ...


This is off topic, let’s not derail he thread.  Stick to the here and now.


----------



## Coyote (May 21, 2018)

You have a blockade that is creating a humanitarian crisis.

On one side of the blockade is a group that includes armed militants and a governing authority more than happy to whip it’s desperate people into a lethal frenzy and destroy the border fence. In fact, actively doing so with loud speakers.

On the other side you have a state protecting its border from people who include among their number those who’s stated aim is the destruction of that state and it’s people.

Caught in the middle are the many Gazans just trying to survive in an increasingly impossible situation. 

And to add fuel to the fire, West Jerusalem has been taken from them by fiat, not negotiation and a two state solution is seemingly out of reach.

What do you do?

Should the state allow the fence to be torn and a flood of people, including armed militants to come through? 

Does Hamas not bear some responsibility for the deaths of those rushing the fence since they encouraged it?

If you bear the responsibility for protecting people’s lives...what would you do?  To those tearing down the fence? To those behind the fence seeing no future left?  To those on the other side seeing it as the only protection from suicide attacks?

Very complicated.


----------



## Shusha (May 21, 2018)

Coyote said:


> You have a blockade that is creating a humanitarian crisis.



I'll keep reading.  But right away -- no.  Any humanitarian crisis is caused directly by the government of Gaza.  I know this because Israel and other countries are providing aid to Gaza to avoid a humanitarian crisis.  There is no shortage of goods entering Gaza.  The problem is that the distribution of goods once they clear Gaza's border is creating a humanitarian crisis.  That is all on the government of Gaza.


----------



## Coyote (May 21, 2018)

Shusha said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > You have a blockade that is creating a humanitarian crisis.
> ...



I think the responsibility for the crisis is two fold, the blockade itself and the actions of the Hamas government.


----------



## Shusha (May 21, 2018)

Coyote said:


> ... and a two state solution is seemingly out of reach.



Is it out of reach?  If so, why?

Can't solve the problem if you don't understand the why.


----------



## Shusha (May 21, 2018)

Coyote said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...



Well, at the very least, then, you should amend your first sentence to read:

You have a humanitarian crisis caused by a blockade and numerous negative actions caused by the government of Gaza.


----------



## Coyote (May 21, 2018)

Shusha said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Shusha said:
> ...


I am fine with that.


----------



## Coyote (May 21, 2018)

Shusha said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > ... and a two state solution is seemingly out of reach.
> ...


There seems to be no political will for it from Israel’s government, the status quo is more productive, there is no unified partner to negotiate with on the Palestinian side, and the US has abdicated its position as a good faith negotiator, plus also lacks the political will.


----------



## Shusha (May 21, 2018)

Coyote said:


> What do you do?



Sorry.  I know I am being ornery.  Not actually directed at you.  You are asking good, reasonable questions.  And being fair, for the most part.  Grin.

The answer to the question depends very much on who "you" are.

If you are a Gazan?  You have to make a choice between building up (Gaza) and trying to tear down (Israel).  

If you are Israel?  You have to make a choice between holding the fort (status quo) and making a unilateral decision which is going to push things, but ultimately resolve things?  When is the right time to make that move?

If you are the US?  If you are the EU?  If you are Russia?  If you are Iran?  If you are Turkey?  If you are Jordan?  If you are Egypt?  If you are Saudi Arabia?  UAE?  Quatar?  Whole other ballgame of questions. 

So who are you asking the question of?


----------



## Sixties Fan (May 21, 2018)

Coyote said:


> montelatici said:
> 
> 
> > rylah said:
> ...





Coyote said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...


There is no political will to do what, exactly, by the Israeli government?


----------



## Coyote (May 21, 2018)

Shusha said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > What do you do?
> ...


I was trying to stick to Gaza and Israel...that is enough


----------



## Shusha (May 21, 2018)

Coyote said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...



Yes, and yes and sort of.  

So, why is there no political will from Israel?  Why is there no negotiating partner on the Palestinian side?


----------



## Coyote (May 21, 2018)

Sixties Fan said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > montelatici said:
> ...



Work towards a two state solution.


----------



## Shusha (May 21, 2018)

Coyote said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...



Right?!


----------



## Sixties Fan (May 21, 2018)

Coyote said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...


Unfortunately, all the countries and organizations Shusha mentioned are involved in this, and create problems beyond what should be dealt with only between Israel and Gaza, or Israel and the PA.


----------



## Sixties Fan (May 21, 2018)

Coyote said:


> Sixties Fan said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...


How can Israel work towards it, when the Leaders in Gaza and the PA are actually working for a One State Solution?


----------



## Shusha (May 21, 2018)

Coyote said:


> Work towards a two state solution.



There is a significant advantage for Israel for a two state solution, imo.  So why is Israel not committed to work toward one?  My thinking is that there is NOTHING, absolutely nothing, that Israel can do to bring about a two state solution at this point in time.  Any unilateral action will only bring about another Gaza or an increasingly violent Gaza.  She needs to wait for Arab Palestinians to catch up.


----------



## Shusha (May 21, 2018)

Sixties Fan said:


> How can Israel work towards it, when the Leaders in Gaza and the PA are actually working for a One State Solution?



I wouldn't call it a "solution", what they are working for.


----------



## Coyote (May 21, 2018)

Shusha said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Work towards a two state solution.
> ...


Why not just work with the West Bank?


----------



## Shusha (May 21, 2018)

Coyote said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...



Isn't that what she has been doing?  Are you saying that if Israel made a unilateral decision to completely withdraw from the "West Bank" that the result would be different than it was in Gaza?  Its FAR more complicated in the "West Bank".  Gaza was easy.  And yet Israel is still facing both increased violence against her AND increased demonization of her because of Gaza.


----------



## Shusha (May 21, 2018)

And "work with" needs a partner.  What is the government of the "West Bank" doing to meet in the middle?  Words, deeds, actions, what?


----------



## Shusha (May 21, 2018)

If there was a peace partner to replace Abbas, what would she look like?  What kinds of words, deeds and actions would she put out to Israel?


----------



## Coyote (May 21, 2018)

Shusha said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Shusha said:
> ...


I wasn’t thinking of a unilateral decision, but a negotiated two state decision without including Gaza.


----------



## Shazoomx4 (May 21, 2018)

montelatici said:


> Shazoomx4 said:
> 
> 
> > montelatici said:
> ...





montelatici said:


> Shazoomx4 said:
> 
> 
> > montelatici said:
> ...



They from jurden and egypt , jordan, and all another arab countries...


----------



## Sixties Fan (May 21, 2018)

Shazoomx4 said:


> montelatici said:
> 
> 
> > Shazoomx4 said:
> ...


That is not what we are discussing on this thread.
We are trying to figure out what to do with Gaza.
Is it time for Israel to retake it?  
It had it in 1967, when Egypt lost it.
Israel left it completely in 2005.
Giving it up did not work out, it only made things worse for Israel.

What is the solution?


----------



## Shazoomx4 (May 21, 2018)

Sixties Fan said:


> Shazoomx4 said:
> 
> 
> > montelatici said:
> ...


To retake gaza its bad idea I will take too many lifes I think the best way is to break Hamas by economic way.. his money its his power.


----------



## Shusha (May 21, 2018)

Coyote said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...



Preaching to the choir.  Bring me a peace partner.


----------



## Sixties Fan (May 21, 2018)

Shazoomx4 said:


> Sixties Fan said:
> 
> 
> > Shazoomx4 said:
> ...


How do you propose to make Hamas lose its money?
It gets it from Iran and Qatar?
How to stop them from getting money and anything they can turn into rockets, weapons, etc against Israel?


----------



## Shazoomx4 (May 21, 2018)

Sixties Fan said:


> Shazoomx4 said:
> 
> 
> > Sixties Fan said:
> ...


Exacly what tramp do, put sanctions on Iran to not help them...
I sure the Israel mosad know what else to do about it..


----------



## Sixties Fan (May 21, 2018)

Shazoomx4 said:


> Sixties Fan said:
> 
> 
> > Shazoomx4 said:
> ...


Hamas is getting money and weapons via illegal ways.
Israel has a blockade on Gaza, so does Egypt, to keep them from getting illegal weapons.

What kind of sanctions could be imposed on Gaza, as with Iran, or North Korea?


----------



## Shusha (May 21, 2018)

Sixties Fan said:


> How do you propose to make Hamas lose its money?
> It gets it from Iran and Qatar?
> How to stop them from getting money and anything they can turn into rockets, weapons, etc against Israel?



Not to mention from international aide.  Or for that matter, from Israel.


----------



## Shusha (May 21, 2018)

Gaza has no economy to sanction.  

It receives a lot of humanitarian aide.  Removal of that humanitarian aide would seem, well UN-humanitarian.  So what is the solution?


----------



## Shusha (May 21, 2018)

Although, if you have $90 million to spend on tunnels, you probably are getting too much "humanitarian" aide.


----------



## RoccoR (May 21, 2018)

RE:  Is it time for Israel to re-take Gaza?
※→ Coyote, Shusha, _et al,_

Understanding that there are several _(almost indepedently)_ Asymmetric fighters _(Jihadist, the Fedayeen, Hostile Insurgents, Radicalized Islamic Followers)_  operating within the West Bank and the Gaza Strip.  And more recently, the fighters of the Democratic Front for the Liberation of Palestine _(DFLP-GC) (Leader __Nayef Hawatmeh)_ have been seeking to establish a closer connections with Hezbollah _(Leader __Hassan Nasrallah)_ to strengthen a more formal alliance and solidify a ring and a common link with the Iranian Revolutionary Guard Corps (IRGC); a source of material support. 

For a real and lasting peace on any terms, the Arab Palestinians of the West Bank and Gaza Strip must be able to stand alone and speak with one voice; → on matters of common policies on their political position with authority.

Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## Sixties Fan (May 21, 2018)

Shusha said:


> Gaza has no economy to sanction.
> 
> It receives a lot of humanitarian aide.  Removal of that humanitarian aide would seem, well UN-humanitarian.  So what is the solution?


Maybe that is exactly what needs to be done.
Stop feeding the wolf.
Either way it is UN-humanitarian to keep nearly 2 million people at the hands of Hamas and the other Iran backed group, to do with whatever they wish, using them as the sacrificial lamb.

It will have to end someday , one way or the other.
All the aid, etc, and once Hamas, etc is gone, try to rebuild it with real partners, if anyone does come up.

But....being Muslims.....I am not quite sure the Charter will be abandoned for the sake of the people and a viable future.


----------



## Billo_Really (May 21, 2018)

Shusha said:


> What kind of argument is that?  The whole point of defending yourself is to prevent yourself from getting hurt or killed.  You don't wait until someone hurts you or kills you to defend yourself.  You address a threat when its a threat.


But you are not defending yourself.  You're committing murder.  If you think your sovereignty is threatened by some rocks and fire kites, then you are a lunatic!  You have a very sick society.  The atrocities you commit on a daily basis, are beyond inhuman.

You're lucky I'm not President.  Because if I was, I'd blow your precious Iron Curtain down with Tomahawk missiles.  I'd take out your snipers with Cobra gunships.  And if you even thought of responding with a tactical nuke, I would barbecue your country in a heartbeat.  I guarantee, you country would glow in the dark.

And in the end, I'd leave you with your own bullshit rhetoric by saying, _*"That was your fault!"*_


----------



## Sixties Fan (May 21, 2018)

Billo_Really said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > What kind of argument is that?  The whole point of defending yourself is to prevent yourself from getting hurt or killed.  You don't wait until someone hurts you or kills you to defend yourself.  You address a threat when its a threat.
> ...


If you were President you would be in an asylum by now.

Banana Republic, anyone?


----------



## Shusha (May 21, 2018)

Sixties Fan said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > Gaza has no economy to sanction.
> ...



Well, except that we both agree, I think, that Gaza is not


Billo_Really said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > What kind of argument is that?  The whole point of defending yourself is to prevent yourself from getting hurt or killed.  You don't wait until someone hurts you or kills you to defend yourself.  You address a threat when its a threat.
> ...



Oooh.  Such violence coming from a guy who insists that violence shouldn't be used.


----------



## Billo_Really (May 21, 2018)

Sixties Fan said:


> If you were President you would be in an asylum by now.
> 
> Banana Republic, anyone?


It seems the only people you can communicate with, are the mentally challenged?


----------



## Billo_Really (May 21, 2018)

Shusha said:


> Oooh.  Such violence coming from a guy who insists that violence shouldn't be used.


That violence isn't coming from me, remember, its your fault the violence happened.

The door swings both ways!  Que pasa, mutha?


----------



## Sixties Fan (May 21, 2018)

Billo_Really said:


> Sixties Fan said:
> 
> 
> > If you were President you would be in an asylum by now.
> ...


You are continue to descend into a deep dark well.


----------



## Billo_Really (May 21, 2018)

Sixties Fan said:


> You are continue to descend into a deep dark well.


At least I have access to clean drinking water!


----------



## Sixties Fan (May 22, 2018)

Billo_Really said:


> Sixties Fan said:
> 
> 
> > You are continue to descend into a deep dark well.
> ...


It is dry.

Thud !!


----------



## Billo_Really (May 22, 2018)

Sixties Fan said:


> It is dry.
> 
> Thud !!


So it was a deep dark dry well?

That makes more sense, in light of the fact that you fuckers steal an awful lot of water that isn't yours.


----------



## RoccoR (May 22, 2018)

RE:  Is it time for Israel to re-take Gaza?
※→  Billo_Really,  _et al,_

Oh this is just too unreal to believe.



Billo_Really said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > What kind of argument is that?  The whole point of defending yourself is to prevent yourself from getting hurt or killed.  You don't wait until someone hurts you or kills you to defend yourself.  You address a threat when its a threat.
> ...


*(COMMENT)*

The HAMAS organizer are attempting to create a set of conditions that will allow the Gazans to swamp the Border defenses without interference from the Border Guards, breaching the barrier to the degree that thousands of Gazans can pour through the barrier with HAMAS using them to screen their entry.  This is a classic case of Rule 97 → Human Shield violation. 

See:

*•  Algemeiner Editor-in-Chief: Hamas-Orchestrated Gaza Border Violence Is an ‘Active Suicide Terror Campaign’ Against Israel  •*
*by Algemeiner Staff May 16, 2018*

The recent Hamas-orchestrated violence on the Israel-Gaza Strip border is “an orchestrated, active suicide terror campaign,” the editor-in-chief of _The Algemeiner_ said during an _i24 News _debate on Tuesday.

“What Israel is responding to is simply this — there is gunfire, there are reports of grenades being used, there are pipe bombs, there are Molotov cocktails, there are flaming kites,” Dovid Efune pointed out, a day after 60 Palestinians — most of whom were members of terrorist groups — were killed as they tried to storm across the border into the Jewish state.

*•  Hamas Leads Violent March, Using Human Shields, at Israeli-Gaza Border  •*
_by_  TheTower.org Staff  | 03.30.18 12:50 pm

In a deliberate attempt to provoke a violent confrontation with Israel over the Passover holiday, the Islamic terrorist organization Hamas, which is in complete political and military control of Gaza, is trying to break through Israeli defenses with a violent march at the Israeli-Gaza border, The Times of Israel reported Friday.

Specifically, Hamas has announced plans to direct mobs of civilians — with Hamas elements embedded within and behind, using them as human shields — to try to tear down Israel’s security fence along the border. They would then exploit any incidents at the fence, as Israeli soldiers try to maintain their positions.​
You can pretend that your argument is carrying the day.  But at the end of the day, you're not fooling anyone.

Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## Billo_Really (May 22, 2018)

RoccoR said:


> RE:  Is it time for Israel to re-take Gaza?
> ※→  Billo_Really,  _et al,_
> 
> Oh this is just too unreal to believe.
> ...


Spare me your daily data dump!

You're spewing Israeli propaganda.  You're the ones pulling the trigger.  They're the ones being murdered in cold blood.


----------



## Sixties Fan (May 22, 2018)

Billo_Really said:


> Sixties Fan said:
> 
> 
> > It is dry.
> ...


They would not know how to find water if their lives depended on it.
They turned their water into undrinkable one, and only have Hamas to blame for it.

Sure, Israel.....the Startup Nation, needs to "steal" from the Arab Palestinians.

This is what Israel does without stealing anything, and giving more than it needs to:

The secret of Israel's water miracle and how it can help a thirsty world

How Israel Is Solving the Global Water Crisis



which is the opposite of what Gaza and the PA do.


----------



## flacaltenn (May 22, 2018)

Billo_Really said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > RE:  Is it time for Israel to re-take Gaza?
> ...



Because Hamas is USING them for propaganda. What other reason is there to face down an army with mob action at a border? Why aren't they negotiating? Why isn't there a Pali Leadership to counsel with? WTF do they expect to happen?

NO one gives a nation to a mob. It just never happens in this day and age. WHO should Israel negotiate with? The Hamas that announces public executions without trial and is listed by Intl Relief Agencies as a brutal regime?

Bunch of questions there Billo.  Think you can handle that?


----------



## rylah (May 22, 2018)

Billo_Really said:


> You're the ones pulling the trigger.  They're the ones being murdered in cold blood.


----------



## flacaltenn (May 22, 2018)

Here's your problem Billo -- HAMAS uses it's citizens as martyrs and weapons.

When Palestinians Kill Palestinians, the World Snores

Hamas Is Accused of Using Gaza War as Cover to Torture and Kill Palestinians

Go argue with Amnesty Intl and the NY Times about whether Hamas is a valid leadership to negotiate with. There IS no Pali unity. It disappeared when Hamas went from welfare to warfare in about 2004. And caused the dissolution of the PA. Which is the trigger for this topic actually.

You can't GIVE a nation to a mob controlled by brutal thugs.


----------



## flacaltenn (May 22, 2018)

Shusha said:


> Gaza has no economy to sanction.
> 
> It receives a lot of humanitarian aide.  Removal of that humanitarian aide would seem, well UN-humanitarian.  So what is the solution?



Oh it's GOT the basis for an economy. The potential is great. You can get pampered at spas and eat 4 star cuisine if you're connected. So does a theoretical Palestine. Because it's in the MIDDLE of Arab trade routes if they ever stopped fighting and started living. There are thriving cities in the West Bank. Not so much now in Gaza, but it COULD be without Hamas or with a "reduced" Hamas and some unity govt.


----------



## P F Tinmore (May 22, 2018)

flacaltenn said:


> Here's your problem Billo -- HAMAS uses it's citizens as martyrs and weapons.
> 
> When Palestinians Kill Palestinians, the World Snores
> 
> ...


What dumbfuck wrote this article? And why would you post such a thing?

Hamas, with Iran’s on-going backing, took over control of Gaza from Fatah in 2007 after more than 600 Palestinians were killed in clashes between the two groups.​
Hamas won the elections in 2006. They were the majority party in the Palestinian Authority. Why would Hamas have to take control, by force, from the losers of the elections? They were the elected government in office.


----------



## Hollie (May 22, 2018)

P F Tinmore said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > Here's your problem Billo -- HAMAS uses it's citizens as martyrs and weapons.
> ...



Now that’s funny. “Elections” in the alternate reality of Islamic terrorist mini-caliphates means that a political party has a greater number of Islamic terrorists wearing ski masks roaming the streets, capable of fire superiority with larger caliber weapons and ammunition vs. the opposing Cleric.


----------



## P F Tinmore (May 22, 2018)

Hollie said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > flacaltenn said:
> ...


Another stupid post. The Palestinian elections were judged free and fair by all international observers.

That is why the US and Israel hated them.


----------



## Hollie (May 22, 2018)

P F Tinmore said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



What makes elections more fair than islamic terrorist goon squads?


----------



## P F Tinmore (May 22, 2018)

Hollie said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Hollie said:
> ...


Where do you get all of these stupid posts?


----------



## Indeependent (May 22, 2018)

P F Tinmore said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...


Are you talking to the mirror again?


----------



## Hollie (May 22, 2018)

P F Tinmore said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



There's no reason to get angry and emotive. Your inability to defend islamic terrorists is not helped by your silky tirades.

Looking forward to those islamic terrorist elections on Gaza'istan and Fatah'istan are ya'.

Maybe sometime this century perhaps? 

Indeed!


----------



## member (May 22, 2018)

flacaltenn said:


> Here's your problem Billo -- HAMAS uses it's citizens as martyrs and weapons.
> 
> When Palestinians Kill Palestinians, the World Snores
> 
> ...



*"Here's your problem Billo* -- 

 (other than having illegal mexicans mow his lawn while he watches from his bay window) -- *HAMAS uses it's citizens as martyrs and weapons."
*



  please, he knows. he's just being a ...comedian.


----------



## flacaltenn (May 22, 2018)

P F Tinmore said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > Here's your problem Billo -- HAMAS uses it's citizens as martyrs and weapons.
> ...



That's the problem. Gaza wasn't given to PA controlled by a brutal group like Hamas. It was given to a PA that was ACTIVELY WORKING to provide Pali infrastructure and national unity. The Civil War ended any hopes of a unity govt. And you even ADMIT it's an Iranian Proxy -- NOT a bunch of diplomats and leaders with a goal of self-government under moderate leadership... 

You calling the NY Times "dumbfucks"?  Maybe you ought to look around for all the zealots that agree with you. Not many Palestinians are as conflict oriented as you are.


----------



## The Sage of Main Street (May 22, 2018)

Sixties Fan said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Shazoomx4 said:
> ...


*The Camel Has Lost the Scent*

With our spoiled weakling rulers, we'd be speaking Arabic too if Israel hadn't decoyed the jihad away from its primary goal.


----------



## P F Tinmore (May 22, 2018)

flacaltenn said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > flacaltenn said:
> ...


You did not understand my post. There was no civil war.


----------



## Hollie (May 22, 2018)

P F Tinmore said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



Hamas vs. Fatah: The Palestinian Civil War |  					 				Foundation for Defense of Democracies


----------



## flacaltenn (May 22, 2018)

P F Tinmore said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



You live in a very dark world of denial. Which is why you're of absolutely NO HELP to the Palestinian cause. It's a kind a brain-dead that only years of propagandizing yourself can cause. OF COURSE there was a Civil War between Hamas -- Fatah for control of the PA and Gaza. 

Fatah–Hamas conflict - Wikipedia



> The *Fatah–Hamas conflict*‎ _an-Nizāʿ bayna Fataḥ wa-Ḥamās_), also referred to as the *Palestinian Civil War* ( _al-Ḥarb al-ʾAhliyyah al-Filisṭīnīyyah_), was a conflict between the two main Palestinian political parties, Fatah and Hamas, resulting in the split of the Palestinian Authority in 2007. The reconciliation process and unification of Hamas and Fatah administrations has not finalized as of May 2018.



Even the ElectronicIntifada is not as deluded as you have made yourself.

Do America and Israel want the Middle East engulfed by civil war?
Jonathan Cook The Electronic Intifada 19 December 2006






Can't deal with your insane fantasies about Palestine.


----------



## P F Tinmore (May 22, 2018)

flacaltenn said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > flacaltenn said:
> ...


I am sorry about your lack of knowledge in this area. Surely you have been misinformed. In the Electronic Intifada article in your link:

All of these outcomes in Palestine, Lebanon and Iraq could have been foreseen — and almost certainly were. More than that, it looks increasingly like the growing tensions and carnage were planned. Rather than an absence of Western intervention being the problem, the violence and fragmentation of these societies seems to be precisely the goal of the intervention.​
The article talked about all of the so called civil wars and how they were fueled by foreign intervention. The so called civil war in Palestine started with the demands in Oslo and that is the sticking point in reunification that remains today.

BTW, you ducked my question.


----------



## Billo_Really (May 22, 2018)

Sixties Fan said:


> They would not know how to find water if their lives depended on it.
> They turned their water into undrinkable one, and only have Hamas to blame for it.
> 
> Sure, Israel.....the Startup Nation, needs to "steal" from the Arab Palestinians.
> ...


They have undrinkable water because you bombed their water treatment plant.  Another war crime.  You cannot target civilian infrastructure.


----------



## Billo_Really (May 22, 2018)

flacaltenn said:


> Because Hamas is USING them for propaganda. What other reason is there to face down an army with mob action at a border?


They're not "facing down" an army; they're protesting the 12 year blockade  that is making their daily life a living hell.



flacaltenn said:


> Why aren't they negotiating? Why isn't there a Pali Leadership to counsel with? WTF do they expect to happen?


For Israel to obey international law and end the blockade and occupation.



flacaltenn said:


> NO one gives a nation to a mob. It just never happens in this day and age. WHO should Israel negotiate with?


There is nothing to negotiate.  Israel just needs to stop the slaughter of innocent lives.  Stop committing crimes against humanity.  Stop acting like the Nazis in the 1930's.



flacaltenn said:


> The Hamas that announces public executions without trial and is listed by Intl Relief Agencies as a brutal regime?


That's pretty brutal.  No one is saying Hamas is not without sin.  But that is an internal problem. As an American, I'm not really in to theological regimes.  In this country, we separate church from state; for good reason.



flacaltenn said:


> Bunch of questions there Billo.  Think you can handle that?


Maybe?  What's it pay?


----------



## Billo_Really (May 22, 2018)

rylah said:


>


----------



## Hollie (May 22, 2018)

Billo_Really said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> >



So, basically, you’re acknowledging that you’re a helpless misfit who is unable to cope in the modern age so you need a scapegoat.


----------



## Billo_Really (May 22, 2018)

Hollie said:


> So, basically, you’re acknowledging that you’re a helpless misfit who is unable to cope in the modern age so you need a scapegoat.


Oh, shut-up!


----------



## Hollie (May 22, 2018)

Billo_Really said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> > So, basically, you’re acknowledging that you’re a helpless misfit who is unable to cope in the modern age so you need a scapegoat.
> ...



Why not just be honest with yourself and take steps to fix your faults.


----------



## Shusha (May 22, 2018)

Billo_Really said:


>



You've reversed cause and effect.


----------



## Hollie (May 22, 2018)

Shusha said:


> Billo_Really said:
> 
> 
> >
> ...



He's missed the analogy altogether.

First, we need to understand the social and political dynamics which caused Hitler’s rise to power. Following Germany’s humiliation at the end of WWI, caused in part by Allied insistence that a percentage of the land area of the German empire be annexed to various countries, and its humiliating concessions to the Allies, Germany was on the verge of collapse. It’s not difficult to envision an outspoken individual garnering recognition. It was certainly easier to blame the "verming Juden" for Germany's problems than it is the overall failed political maneuvering of a lame duck Republic that is chastised by having lost a war of imperialism?  We’re basically examining an eccentric use of power and greed under the veil of both Democracy and religion. A hapless nation had suffered 10 years of runaway inflation and political isolation. A charismatic leader told the people what they wanted to hear, ie: the glory of the Fatherland, Arian supremacy, etc., etc. 

It shouldn’t be missed by anyone that there are several striking parallels between Germany during the 1930’s and the Middle East currently which we should take notice of.


----------



## RoccoR (May 22, 2018)

ell RE:  Is it time for Israel to re-take Gaza?
※→  Billo_Really, _et al,_

Is that what the law says?  Or is that your interpretation of what the Law says?

I'm wondering if you actually read either the rules or statues.



Billo_Really said:


> They have undrinkable water because you bombed their water treatment plant.  Another war crime.  You cannot target civilian infrastructure.


*(COMMENT)*

••  ICRC IHL Database, Customary and International Humanitarian Law (IHL)  ••
•  Rule 10. Civilian objects are protected against attack, unless and for such time as they are military objectives.
•  ICC Rome Statutes, Article 8(2)(b)(ii); see also Article 8(2)(b)(ix) and (e)(iv) (concerning attacks against buildings dedicated to religion, education, art, science or charitable purposes, historic monuments, hospitals and places where the sick and wounded are collected) and Article 8(2)(b)(v) (concerning attacks against towns, villages, dwellings or buildings which are undefended).​
This is NOT something new.  This is a well know and well established practice; employed for more than a decade.



			
				By Elhanan Miller 23 January 2014  said:
			
		

> Hamas is increasingly using sensitive civilian facilities in Gaza to protect its military assets from being targeted by Israel, ahead of a further round of conflict. It is also digging dozens of “terror tunnels” into Israel, The Times of Israel has learned.
> 
> Gaza’s Islamist rulers have been placing _*rocket launching pads next to water reservoirs, and attaching reconnaissance cameras to mosque minarets and water towers*_, The Times of Israel was told, in a bid to avoid IAF airstrikes during an upcoming round of confrontation.



Read the rule and then collect your data.  We know that the Arab Palestinians always cheer for their side.  BUT, that doesn't make it true.

Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## flacaltenn (May 22, 2018)

Billo_Really said:


> For Israel to obey international law and end the blockade and occupation.



Hamas is a brutal regime. Amnesty Intl and the NY Times says that. They don't obey Intl law which is a large part of the reason for the embargo. They want to end the embargo? Form a govt again. Elect credible representation. Hamas is not credible representation. Ask most any Arab neighbor country.  It's not just the US and Israel that take that position. Being an Iran Proxy -- they are a DIRECT threat to stability in the Levant. 



Billo_Really said:


> There is nothing to negotiate. Israel just needs to stop the slaughter of innocent lives. Stop committing crimes against humanity. Stop acting like the Nazis in the 1930's.



A city state, which is what Gaza is WITHOUT a unified Palestine, under Hamas will never adhere to the norms and international law. And it will continue to DEFEAT the creation of Palestine. It's not a good plan if anyone EXPECTS a real Palestinian nation..


----------



## Coyote (May 22, 2018)

flacaltenn said:


> Billo_Really said:
> 
> 
> > For Israel to obey international law and end the blockade and occupation.
> ...


Flac...why couldn’t a city state be a solution?   It is an intriguing concept discussed here...The Palestinian Emirates "Solution"


----------



## flacaltenn (May 22, 2018)

Coyote said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > Billo_Really said:
> ...



I actually LIKE the concept of a loose confederation of City States for Pali autonomy. Let them all self-govern under different levels of tolerance and govt. But the idea has slammed by "purists" as establishing a chain of ghettos surrounded by Israel. There would still have to be leadership to negotiate trade/travel corridors and liberal boundaries of open space around these cities. 

I've read a lot about the different character of many WB cities. Some are quite secular. Others not no much. You could connect them with a SuperHiway with limited access to Israel proper. There's a lot of "DESIGN" that should be used as a carrot to get closer to Pali autonomy. Those "city-states" could be on a trade route that connects the entire Levant to the Arabian Peninsula and beyond.


----------



## Coyote (May 22, 2018)

flacaltenn said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > flacaltenn said:
> ...


Add your input to the thread...it kind of died


----------



## flacaltenn (May 22, 2018)

I think the right folks could design a solution that doesn't just involve marking up a map.  You could ENRICH the entire region with the right visions of prosperity and trade.  If you build them a FUTURE -- maybe they'll stop living in the past...


----------



## Billo_Really (May 23, 2018)

Hollie said:


> Why not just be honest with yourself and take steps to fix your faults.


I am honest with myself.  I have no reason to lie.  You do.


----------



## Billo_Really (May 23, 2018)

Shusha said:


> You've reversed cause and effect.


So no Israeli insurgents (settlers) take down Palestinian olive trees?
There are no housing demolitions? 
No settlement expansion? 
No administrative detention?
No treating the entire population of Palestinians, as the enemy? 
No drone strikes? 
Or missile strikes?
No blockade that restricts the flow of goods to barely enough to sustain a population that size? 
No blaming of the victims forcing you to take their lives?

Your argument gets more strange by the day.


----------



## Billo_Really (May 23, 2018)

Hollie said:


> He's missed the analogy altogether.
> 
> First, we need to understand the social and political dynamics which caused Hitler’s rise to power. Following Germany’s humiliation at the end of WWI, caused in part by Allied insistence that a percentage of the land area of the German empire be annexed to various countries, and its humiliating concessions to the Allies, Germany was on the verge of collapse. It’s not difficult to envision an outspoken individual garnering recognition. It was certainly easier to blame the "verming Juden" for Germany's problems than it is the overall failed political maneuvering of a lame duck Republic that is chastised by having lost a war of imperialism?  We’re basically examining an eccentric use of power and greed under the veil of both Democracy and religion. A hapless nation had suffered 10 years of runaway inflation and political isolation. A charismatic leader told the people what they wanted to hear, ie: the glory of the Fatherland, Arian supremacy, etc., etc.
> 
> It shouldn’t be missed by anyone that there are several striking parallels between Germany during the 1930’s and the Middle East currently which we should take notice of.


The Nazis wanted an Aryan Nation, you want a Jewish State.  What's the difference?  
Both groups think they were "chosen" by divine intervention.  
Both groups scapegoated an entire population of people as the "bad guys".  
Both groups tried to exterminate these respective populations.  
Both groups tried to acquire land by force.  
And both groups lied about their intentions to the rest of the world.


----------



## Billo_Really (May 23, 2018)

RoccoR said:


> ell RE:  Is it time for Israel to re-take Gaza?
> ※→  Billo_Really, _et al,_
> 
> Is that what the law says?  Or is that your interpretation of what the Law says?
> ...


The law is very clear.  If civilian casualties are greater than military necessity, then you cannot target civilian infrastructure.  And how can their be any military necessity when you shoot missiles at a trapped population that doesn't even have the right to defend themselves?


----------



## Billo_Really (May 23, 2018)

flacaltenn said:


> Hamas is a brutal regime. Amnesty Intl and the NY Times says that. They don't obey Intl law which is a large part of the reason for the embargo. They want to end the embargo? Form a govt again. Elect credible representation. Hamas is not credible representation. Ask most any Arab neighbor country.  It's not just the US and Israel that take that position. Being an Iran Proxy -- they are a DIRECT threat to stability in the Levant.


First off, the "embargo" is not because of Hamas violations of international law.  It is punitive punishment by the Israelis, because Gazans wouldn't vote for Israels bitch Fatah.  But for the sake of argument, lets say that was the reason for the embargo.  There are almost 400 UN resolutions regarding Israeli violations of international law.  So Israel needs to be quarantined by the rest of the world until it capitulates.

Secondly, who Gazans vote for, is none of Israels goddamn business!  You think you can tell others what to do on their own property?

And third, how can a population under occupation be anyone's proxy?




flacaltenn said:


> A city state, which is what Gaza is WITHOUT a unified Palestine, under Hamas will never adhere to the norms and international law. And it will continue to DEFEAT the creation of Palestine. It's not a good plan if anyone EXPECTS a real Palestinian nation..


It doesn't matter as to whether they are a nation or not, all parties have agreed the 4th Geneva Convention applies and Israel has failed miserably in honoring that Rome Statute.


----------



## rylah (May 23, 2018)

Billo_Really said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> > Why not just be honest with yourself and take steps to fix your faults.
> ...



Honest?
Haven't seen You hold a single argument without resorting to boldly lying about Your own posts.


----------



## Billo_Really (May 23, 2018)

flacaltenn said:


> I actually LIKE the concept of a loose confederation of City States for Pali autonomy. Let them all self-govern under different levels of tolerance and govt. But the idea has slammed by "purists" as establishing a chain of ghettos surrounded by Israel. There would still have to be leadership to negotiate trade/travel corridors and liberal boundaries of open space around these cities.
> 
> I've read a lot about the different character of many WB cities. Some are quite secular. Others not no much. You could connect them with a SuperHiway with limited access to Israel proper. There's a lot of "DESIGN" that should be used as a carrot to get closer to Pali autonomy. Those "city-states" could be on a trade route that connects the entire Levant to the Arabian Peninsula and beyond.


And such a City State needs a theme song and I got the perfect one for THAT city!


In the words of Shaquille O'Neil,_ "Can you dig it?"_


----------



## Billo_Really (May 23, 2018)

Coyote said:


> Add your input to the thread...it kind of died


I prefer to think............_*metastasized.*_

But look at the bright side.  At least he's not as bad as I am?


----------



## Billo_Really (May 23, 2018)

rylah said:


> Honest?
> Haven't seen You hold a single argument without resorting to boldly lying about Your own posts.


Why would I lie?  This conflict doesn't affect me in any way.  I have no dog in this hunt.  I have nothing to gain; nor anything to lose.  So why would I lie?

You, on the other hand, have every reason in the world to lie.


----------



## rylah (May 23, 2018)

Billo_Really said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> > Honest?
> ...



How many times has Palestinian propaganda refuted Your crazy big claims just in the recent weeks?


----------



## RoccoR (May 23, 2018)

RE:  Is it time for Israel to re-take Gaza?
※→  Billo_Really, _et al,_

Here, you have jumped the context.  You are confusing two different rules and statutes.



Billo_Really said:


> The law is very clear.  If civilian casualties are greater than military necessity, then you cannot target civilian infrastructure.  And how can their be any military necessity when you shoot missiles at a trapped population that doesn't even have the right to defend themselves?


*(COMMENT)*

In Posting #529 _("They have undrinkable water because you bombed their water treatment plant. Another war crime. You cannot target civilian infrastructure.")_  Your definitive statement was:  "You cannot target civilian infrastructure."  I responded with the exact Customary and IHL Rule that addresses that definitive issue.  Now you've switched the definitive issues to:

•  Military Necessity
•  Trapped Population
•  A Population in its own defense.​
In the #529 response, your focus seems to have shifted away from the 2014 Operation Protective Edge, resulting in damage to the Water Processing Facility, and more to the current discussion on whether there should be an attempt to take "effective control" of the entire Gaza Strip. 

*•  Rule 14.* Launching an attack which may be expected to cause incidental loss of civilian life, injury to civilians, damage to civilian objects, or a combination thereof, which would be excessive in relation to the concrete and direct military advantage anticipated, is prohibited.

The principle of proportionality:   In addition, under the Statute of the International Criminal Court, “intentionally launching an attack in the knowledge that such attack will cause incidental loss of life or injury to civilians or damage to civilian objects … which would be clearly excessive in relation to the concrete and direct overall military advantage anticipated” constitutes a war crime in international armed conflicts.​
First, the military necessity → in this particular case → at this particular time is (of course) the focus on whether or not current events are a significant enough to have the consequence.  And we need to untangle the new issues that you bring to the discussion.

Is there a "Military Necessity:  Of course, I cannot speak for the Israelis, but it would seem obvious to me that there is a question as to whether the protection of Israeli Territorial Sovereignty against the chaos of a rampant horde of Hostile Arab Palestinians is a "military necessity" to deal with; and I think it is.

On the matter of the "Trapped Population."  That is a consequence of their own making.  *IF* the Arab Palestinians did not pose a demonstrated "THREAT" _[Article 2(4) threat of force against the territorial integrity or political independence]_ against Israel → *THEN* there would not be the establishment of border protection between the people of the Gaza Strip and that of Israel.  The duty here is that the Israel Government has a fiduciary responsibility to its citizens, to protect them against the threat.  Thus, the purpose of that aspect of the barrier, now under protest, is → not to keep the Gazan Arab Palestinian in the Gaza Strip → but rather → to keep the threat out of Israel.

The  question of "its own defense" is a variation on the  theme of "self-defense."  While it is covered in Article 51 of the Charter, it does not address a "Right" in either the Universal Declaration of Human Rights (UDHR) or the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights (CCPR). 

In regards to present day activities by the Hostile Arab Palestinians:



			
				Article 51(7) Additional Protocol 1 said:
			
		

> The presence or movements of the civilian population or individual civilians shall not be used to render certain points or areas immune from military operations, in particular *in attempts to shield military objectives from attacks* or to shield, favor or impede military operations. The Parties to the conflict shall not direct the movement of the civilian population or individual civilians in order to attempt to shield military objectives from attacks or to shield military operations.



The HAMAS Organized event (March to Return) is recognizable activity driven to be held as the cause of civilian casualties.  The March was a calculated attempt, on the part of HAMAS, to create a violent confrontation.  HAMAS cannot manipulate of pressure the population in order to shield the infiltration of Jihadists into Israel.

Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## Billo_Really (May 23, 2018)

rylah said:


> How many times has Palestinian propaganda refuted Your crazy big claims just in the recent weeks?


I don't know.  Why don't you tell me?


----------



## Billo_Really (May 23, 2018)

RoccoR said:


> RE:  Is it time for Israel to re-take Gaza?
> ※→  Billo_Really, _et al,_
> 
> Here, you have jumped the context.  You are confusing two different rules and statutes.
> ...


There is no proof Hamas organized the protest.  Even if they did, you have no right to shoot peaceful protesters.


----------



## Shusha (May 23, 2018)

Billo_Really said:


> There is no proof Hamas organized the protest.



Hamas governs the territory.  They are responsible for policing the "protest" AND for keeping the safety of their citizens as their highest priority.  If Hamas had prevented the protest from turning violent, had prevented people from attempting to breach the boundary, had prevented people from bringing weapons and using them, had prevented tires from being burned as a smokescreen, had prevented children from attending -- there would have been no cause for Israel to respond.  

Not only did Hamas FAIL to do any of these things -- they actively incited civilians to act violently, provided information on how to best breach the border and reach Israel's nearby towns, PAID civilians to act violently, and burned the boundary crossing through which aide is delivered.  THEN they refused to accept urgently needed medical supplies.  

Your attempt to claim that Hamas is innocent of wrong-doing is simply ridiculous.


----------



## rylah (May 23, 2018)

Billo_Really said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> > How many times has Palestinian propaganda refuted Your crazy big claims just in the recent weeks?
> ...



I'm sure You'll try to convince even Hamas that the protests are "peaceful":


----------



## RoccoR (May 23, 2018)

RE:  Is it time for Israel to re-take Gaza?
※→  Billo_Really, _et al,_

The short answer is!



Billo_Really said:


> There is no proof Hamas organized the protest.  Even if they did, you have no right to shoot peaceful protesters.


*(COMMENT)*

*WHEN* a peaceful protest becomes whipped-up, turns violent and threatens the integrity of Israel's sovereign territory, *THEN* it voids its status of protection.

*WHEN* a peaceful protest is whipped-up, turns violent and becomes threatening as a result of HAMAS malfeasance and intentional influence, *THEN* it takes on the character of "cover and concealment."

The greater impact is:  HAMAS either has governmental control over Gaza or it doesn't.  I am glad that you admit that HAMAS is not in control of Gaza...

Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## P F Tinmore (May 23, 2018)

Shusha said:


> Billo_Really said:
> 
> 
> > There is no proof Hamas organized the protest.
> ...





Shusha said:


> Hamas governs the territory. They are responsible for policing the "protest" AND for keeping the safety of their citizens as their highest priority.


How can they police something that is not illegal?


----------



## Shusha (May 23, 2018)

P F Tinmore said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > Billo_Really said:
> ...



Um.  The same way all nations police protests.  Wow.  This whole "government" thing really is hard for you, isn't it?


----------



## Sixties Fan (May 23, 2018)

RoccoR said:


> RE:  Is it time for Israel to re-take Gaza?
> ※→  Billo_Really, _et al,_
> 
> The short answer is!
> ...



Hamas governs Gaza.

Hamas pays people and their militants to and is responsible for :
Come to the border
Throw rocks, molotov
Plant explosives
Fly incendiary kites into Israel
Breach the border and infiltrate Israel

Build tunnels which go into Israel or Egypt
Illegally obtains pieces which put together  make up for the weapons its militants have and have used, like the AK-a47 which was fired into a house a mile away inside Israeli territory.

Hamas is responsible, with UWRA, for the education all people in Gaza receive, which continues to be one of non acceptance of Israel's existence and hatred for Jews.  In their textbooks, tv programs, etc.

Yes, Hamas IS in control of Gaza.  Not the PA, although it should be Fatah with Abbas who should have the control of it.
Clearly, that will never happen.


----------



## RoccoR (May 23, 2018)

RE  Is it time for Israel to re-take Gaza?
※→  P F Tinmore,  et al,

This is a serious recognition problem.  This type of problem flourishes in countries and populations that are too politically and diplomatically immature to recognize the responsibilities of a



P F Tinmore said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > Hamas governs the territory. They are responsible for policing the "protest" AND for keeping the safety of their citizens as their highest priority.
> ...


*(COMMENT)*

When the crowds and chaos moves to become a threat:


•  Chapter I Purposes and Principles --- Article 2 (4), UN Charter:  All Members shall refrain in their international relations from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of any state, or in any other manner inconsistent with the Purposes of the United Nations.

•  A/RES/25/2625 - Declaration on Principles of International Law concerning Friendly Relations and Co-operation among States (1970)(DoP):  Every State has the duty to refrain in its international relations from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of any State, or in any other manner inconsistent with the purposes of the United Nations. Such a threat or use of force constitutes a violation of international law and the Charter of the United Nations and shall never be employed as a means of settling international issues.
•
•
•
Every State has the duty to refrain from the threat to use - and the use of force to violate the existing international boundaries of another State or as a means of solving international disputes, including territorial disputes and problems concerning frontiers of States.​
This fundamental principle is of such importance and gravity that it is repeated more than once in the DoPs.  It answers the question of peace → and for the Middle East → and the solution to the Question of Palestine.  But for many a generation in the past, and for those coming in the future → _(as my daughter would say)_ → The Arab Palestinians have seen - unbelieving - their last unicorn.  And I think my kids say that because they know that it will take some true magic for them to recapture that which is in the spirit and nature of most cultures to rally in the shadow of adversity and build a'new that is destroyed in a nation.  And as my youngest _(who is an Aspie)_ said - "that ain't happening."

*( • ∑ • FOR A LAUGH • )*

I had to laugh the other day when a very bright young lady said to me:  "A two-state solution has about as much of a chance of working - as do - Catholic Gregorian Monks of the Benedictine Seminary have of chanting in the Dome of the Rock."

Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## P F Tinmore (May 23, 2018)

RoccoR said:


> RE  Is it time for Israel to re-take Gaza?
> ※→  P F Tinmore,  et al,
> 
> This is a serious recognition problem.  This type of problem flourishes in countries and populations that are too politically and diplomatically immature to recognize the responsibilities of a
> ...


Israel is a law free zone. It is the wild west of the Middle East.


----------



## P F Tinmore (May 23, 2018)

RoccoR said:


> • A/RES/25/2625 - Declaration on Principles of International Law concerning Friendly Relations and Co-operation among States (1970)(DoP): Every State has the duty to refrain in its international relations from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of any State, or in any other manner inconsistent with the purposes of the United Nations. Such a threat or use of force constitutes a violation of international law and the Charter of the United Nations and shall never be employed as a means of settling international issues.


Sounds like Israel. ~ 1948


----------



## Shusha (May 23, 2018)

P F Tinmore said:


> Israel is a law free zone. It is the wild west of the Middle East.



Oh, the irony.  Especially on this thread.


----------



## Billo_Really (May 23, 2018)

Shusha said:


> Hamas governs the territory.  They are responsible for policing the "protest" AND for keeping the safety of their citizens as their highest priority.  If Hamas had prevented the protest from turning violent, had prevented people from attempting to breach the boundary, had prevented people from bringing weapons and using them, had prevented tires from being burned as a smokescreen, had prevented children from attending -- there would have been no cause for Israel to respond.
> 
> Not only did Hamas FAIL to do any of these things -- they actively incited civilians to act violently, provided information on how to best breach the border and reach Israel's nearby towns, PAID civilians to act violently, and burned the boundary crossing through which aide is delivered.  THEN they refused to accept urgently needed medical supplies.
> 
> Your attempt to claim that Hamas is innocent of wrong-doing is simply ridiculous.


Get this through your fucking head, you started the violence, not them.  Burning tires is not a violent act.  Walking into this bullshit buffer zone ON THEIR OWN PROPERTY, does not give you the right to kill them.  Neither is flying a fire kite, or throwing a rock.  They don't justify deliberate murder on your part.

And speaking of this alleged violence you keep pushing, why is it, there is no video of someone being shot while throwing a rock or flying a kite?  Why are all the videos on TV and YouTube, showing someone just standing there and all of a sudden, they are shot!  Why is UN representatives in the area, Amnesty International and the Red Cross, all saying you are shooting peaceful protesters?  These are completely separate organizations all saying the same thing.  Which is also backed up by videos of the massacre.

And why is it, people from these organizations who were there, the boots on the ground while it was happening, say there's no evidence of Hamas organizing this protest?  Even if they did, that still doesn't give you the right to kill them.  You're ridiculous!  You're absolutely ridiculous!

You don't deserve a country!


----------



## fncceo (May 23, 2018)

Billo_Really said:


> You don't deserve a country!



You were saying?


----------



## Billo_Really (May 23, 2018)

rylah said:


> I'm sure You'll try to convince even Hamas that the protests are "peaceful":


I'm just going by reports from people who were there.  The UN, AI and ICRC all say you are shooting peaceful protesters.  And there are no videos backing up your claims.


----------



## Billo_Really (May 23, 2018)

RoccoR said:


> RE:  Is it time for Israel to re-take Gaza?
> ※→  Billo_Really, _et al,_
> 
> The short answer is!
> ...


Do you really think someone throwing a rock, is a threat to Israeli sovereignty?


----------



## Billo_Really (May 23, 2018)

Shusha said:


> Um.  The same way all nations police protests.  Wow.  This whole "government" thing really is hard for you, isn't it?


You police protests in your own country, not someone else's.

And if you think protesting is a capital offense, you are really disturbed.


----------



## Andylusion (May 23, 2018)

Sixties Fan said:


> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> > Billo_Really said:
> ...



Works for me.


----------



## rylah (May 23, 2018)

Billo_Really said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> > I'm sure You'll try to convince even Hamas that the protests are "peaceful":
> ...



Well if you're religious about calling blue as green,
then don't tell me You care about facts.


----------



## Billo_Really (May 23, 2018)

Sixties Fan said:


> Hamas governs Gaza.
> 
> Hamas pays people and their militants to and is responsible for :
> Come to the border
> ...


Sorry, you're the ones shooting people in cold blood.  That is your fault, not Hamas.


----------



## Andylusion (May 23, 2018)

Billo_Really said:


> Sixties Fan said:
> 
> 
> > Pathetic Billo, who said YOU deserve to die on this thread?
> ...



Pointing out truth, apparently is "bullying" now, according to the left.

You take your kids into a war zone, and then cry if they die.... someone points out that people with morals, and some amount of dignity, do not do this....  "You are bullying me!".... wow.


----------



## Billo_Really (May 23, 2018)

fncceo said:


> You were saying?


You got a point?


----------



## Andylusion (May 23, 2018)

Sixties Fan said:


> Billo_Really said:
> 
> 
> > Sixties Fan said:
> ...



I never once suggested, or even hinted that I "wish" people were dead.

Ironic, given the fact the people at the boarder openly said they wish the people on the other side were dead......

My suggestion is, don't go to a border, in a military controlled area, and attack military personnel.

If you do.... then yes you deserve to die.    Don't do that.  Then you won't deserve what you get.

My 'wish' is that they would live in peace, and stop being lower than animals, by bringing children into dangerous areas.


----------



## Billo_Really (May 23, 2018)

Andylusion said:


> Works for me.


That's because you're a pussy!


----------



## Andylusion (May 23, 2018)

P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > RE  Is it time for Israel to re-take Gaza?
> ...



If that was even remotely true, Jews would not being still migrating there regularly.   In fact, most of the people on the other side of the border would not being trying to get there either.

Ridiculous comment.


----------



## Billo_Really (May 23, 2018)

rylah said:


> Well if you're religious about calling blue as green,
> then don't tell me You care about facts.


You really love playing make believe?


----------



## Andylusion (May 23, 2018)

Billo_Really said:


> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> > Works for me.
> ...



Says trash boy, that is an evil supporter of terrorism.  Yeah, you of all people would know a pussy when you see one.... likely all your friends, and your mirror fit that description.


----------



## Andylusion (May 23, 2018)

Billo_Really said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> > Well if you're religious about calling blue as green,
> ...



His make believe, is better than your clear cut lies and support of evil.


----------



## Billo_Really (May 23, 2018)

Andylusion said:


> Pointing out truth, apparently is "bullying" now, according to the left.
> 
> You take your kids into a war zone, and then cry if they die.... someone points out that people with morals, and some amount of dignity, do not do this....  "You are bullying me!".... wow.


It is not a war zone.  This is not a war.  You think it is moral to shoot fish in a barrel?  

BTW, you don't know shit about the truth.


----------



## Billo_Really (May 23, 2018)

Andylusion said:


> I never once suggested, or even hinted that I "wish" people were dead.
> 
> Ironic, given the fact the people at the boarder openly said they wish the people on the other side were dead......
> 
> ...


You told me, I deserve to die, if I go to a protest march.

Would you say that to Thomas Paine?


----------



## Billo_Really (May 23, 2018)

Andylusion said:


> Says trash boy, that is an evil supporter of terrorism.  Yeah, you of all people would know a pussy when you see one.... likely all your friends, and your mirror fit that description.


Are you bullying me?


----------



## Billo_Really (May 23, 2018)

Andylusion said:


> His make believe, is better than your clear cut lies and support of evil.


What did I lie about?


----------



## rylah (May 23, 2018)

Billo_Really said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> > Well if you're religious about calling blue as green,
> ...



I'm not the one who can't stop lying about his own posts when faced with facts.

Hamas says - the protests are violent.
There was already enough evidence to back it up before the admitting.

You can keep denying facts in favor of whatever You dogmatically convinced Yourself.
Everyone is free to choose a way, if defying logic is Your religion, then be it.

Just don't whine when fact contradict Your big crazy claim.


----------



## Billo_Really (May 23, 2018)

rylah said:


> I'm not the one who can't stop lying about his own posts when faced with facts.
> 
> Hamas says - the protests are violent.
> There was already enough evidence to back it up before the admitting.
> ...


Then where is the evidence?  Pony some up!  You're saying the UN, AI and ICRC are all lying?  That is a perfect example of just how crazy Israelis are.


----------



## rylah (May 23, 2018)

Billo_Really said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> > I'm not the one who can't stop lying about his own posts when faced with facts.
> ...




You're saying Hamas didn't admit the protests are violent?


----------



## RoccoR (May 23, 2018)

RE:  Is it time for Israel to re-take Gaza?
※→  Billo_Really, _et al,_

What nonsense is this?



Billo_Really said:


> Do you really think someone throwing a rock, is a threat to Israeli sovereignty?


*(COMMENT)*

One candle against the darkness is nothing.   Thirty-thousand candles is a ball of light.  It only takes one rock to kill you.

But it is not just the rock.  HAMAS is attempting to induce a charge of a thousand _(maybe several thousand) _protestors against the barrier; screening the HAMAS infiltrators.

Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## Shusha (May 23, 2018)

Billo_Really said:


> You police protests in your own country, not someone else's.



Wow.  Seriously?  I'm suggesting that Hamas might want to police its OWN country.  Its called government.


----------



## fncceo (May 23, 2018)

Billo_Really said:


> You think it is moral to shoot fish in a barrel?



The fish don’t seem to mind.


----------



## Billo_Really (May 23, 2018)

RoccoR said:


> RE:  Is it time for Israel to re-take Gaza?
> ※→  Billo_Really, _et al,_
> 
> What nonsense is this?
> ...


You're off your rocker!  You're the only nuclear power in the ME and you're telling me you're afraid of rocks?


----------



## Billo_Really (May 23, 2018)

Shusha said:


> Wow.  Seriously?  I'm suggesting that Hamas might want to police its OWN country.  Its called government.


What they do on their own land is none of your fucking business!  If they want to protest, you have no right to try and stop them.


----------



## Billo_Really (May 23, 2018)

fncceo said:


> The fish don’t seem to mind.


Why don't you go fuck yourself, asshole?


----------



## fncceo (May 23, 2018)

Billo_Really said:


> fncceo said:
> 
> 
> > The fish don’t seem to mind.
> ...



If I could do that, I wouldn’t bother with Message Board.


----------



## Billo_Really (May 23, 2018)

fncceo said:


> If I could do that, I wouldn’t bother with Message Board.


Good comeback!


----------



## Andylusion (May 23, 2018)

Billo_Really said:


> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> > Pointing out truth, apparently is "bullying" now, according to the left.
> ...



They were throwing pipe bombs, and fire bombs across the border at military people, who were shooting back.

As far as I'm concerned that is a war zone.  If not that, then a combat area, where people are shooting and trying to kill each other.

If you sub-humans are so stupid, as to take an infant or child, into that situation, then you have placed yourself at a lower moral level, than rodents.

As for knowing the truth.... absolutely EVERYONE knows more about the truth, than you have displayed here Trash Boy.  Looks like just about everyone else on this thread agrees with me... but then, you are so loud and obnoxious, it doesn't look like even other snotty left-wingers are willing to support you much.


----------



## RoccoR (May 23, 2018)

RE:  Is it time for Israel to re-take Gaza?
※→  Billo_Really, _et al,_

First, you don't know whether or not Israel is a nuclear power _(weapons capable)_.  That is supposition and guesswork based on the extrapolation of 40-year-old data.

Secondly, no nuclear power has ever released weapon since America at the end of WWII.  Nuclear Weapons are strategic weapons and weapons of last resort.  They are not meant to be used in a low-intensity conflict,

Finally, even the HAMAS choice of weapons _(Rocks, Molotov cocktails, Incendiary Kits, Burning Tires, etc)_ are designed to provoke a disastrous retaliatory incident to gain international sympathy.   Just like you are attempting to do in this discussion.



Billo_Really said:


> You're off your rocker!  You're the only nuclear power in the ME and you're telling me you're afraid of rocks?


*(COMMENT)*

Sounds incredible.   But being a Nuclear Power in a situation in which HAMAS is sacrificing and expending terrorist sympathizer class civilians as “human shields,” to achieve a media victory against Israel.  They want the Israelis to break normal border security protocol so they can induce a disaster and manipulate a bandwagon effect with the sympathetic international community lined up behind them.

Given the opportunity, → there is still a possibility for a breach in the integrity of the barrier.  It is HAMAS's greatest hope that they can trigger an event that will leave dead Arab Palestinians all over the border.  Remember the original threat:



			
				EXCERPT:  16 February 1948 |  Communicated to the Secretary-General by Mr. Isa Nakhleh said:
			
		

> 13(g) The Arabs of Palestine made a *solemn declaration* before the United Nations, before God and history, that they will never submit or yield to any power going to Palestine to enforce partition. The only way to establish partition is first to wipe them out — man, woman, and child. (*Source Link*)



Like the Arab Palestinians have done for decades, violence is the preferred method of negotiation, peace is always held for ransom, intimidation is protocol, and suicide is always an option.

Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## Billo_Really (May 24, 2018)

Andylusion said:


> They were throwing pipe bombs, and fire bombs across the border at military people, who were shooting back.
> 
> As far as I'm concerned that is a war zone.  If not that, then a combat area, where people are shooting and trying to kill each other.
> 
> ...


Can you throw a pipe bomb 300 feet?  Can you throw a rock, from 300 feet away and still be 20 feet from the ground?  Do you think you can be killed by an 8 month old baby from 300 feet away?  Do you think your life is threatened by someone burning a tire?  How about baking bread?  Do you consider that life threatening?  Or how about playing soccer?  Does soccer justify a deadly response?  Because that's who you fuckers shoot at.

_ “We recognize Israel’s security concerns, yet it is imperative that lethal force only be used as a last resort and when strictly unavoidable in order to protect life." - ICRC _
_
"The blockade has devastated Gaza’s economy, caused widespread destruction and left most people largely cut off from the outside world." - OXFAM Int. 

"the blockade on Gaza violates an array of basic human rights, including residents’ “right to life, health, education, food, water, standard of living and adequate housing.” - Euro-Med HRN https://www.oxfam.org/en/occupied-p...el/timeline-humanitarian-impact-gaza-blockade

“The government of Israel contends that the closure of the Gaza Strip forms part of a policy of legitimate ‘economic warfare’ against the authorities in Gaza. International law is unequivocal however: the closure constitutes a form of collective punishment of the entire civilian population of Gaza and is in clear violation of international humanitarian law.” - Euro-Med HRN 
_​What were you saying about support................_.junior?_


----------



## Billo_Really (May 24, 2018)

RoccoR said:


> RE:  Is it time for Israel to re-take Gaza?
> ※→  Billo_Really, _et al,_
> 
> First, you don't know whether or not Israel is a nuclear power _(weapons capable)_.  That is supposition and guesswork based on the extrapolation of 40-year-old data.
> ...


You want to bring up human shields?  Then tell me, RoccoR, what is a _*"Johnnie"*_?


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## fncceo (May 24, 2018)

Billo_Really said:


> _*...what is a "Johnnie"*_?


----------



## Billo_Really (May 24, 2018)

fncceo said:


>


Maybe in England; but in Palestine, a *Johnnie* is...

*Testimony 1 – Human Shield*

_*People are called “Johnnie. They’re Palestinian civilians” in Gaza neighborhoods.* *In checking out houses, “we send the neighbor in, the ‘Johnnie,’* and if there are armed men inside, we (use) ‘pressure cooker’ procedures….to get them out alive….to catch the armed men.” When necessary, combat helicopters are called in to fire anti-tank missiles at civilian homes. Then send a “Johnnie” in to check for dead and wounded.

Human shields were also used to check for booby-traps and perform other services. *“Sometimes the force would enter while placing rifle barrels on a civilian’s shoulder, advancing into the house and using him as a human shield. *Commanders said these were the instructions and we had to do it.”_​


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## Andylusion (May 24, 2018)

Billo_Really said:


> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> > They were throwing pipe bombs, and fire bombs across the border at military people, who were shooting back.
> ...



So.... Israel did allow free trade into Gaza, until Hamas was put in place, and started using that to import weapons and war making supplies.   That includes things like cement, which Hamas used to make a network of tunnels, to go and kill Israelis with.

With all due respect, if Mexico was building tunnels to kidnap Americans with, we would do a heck of a lot more than simply blockading Mexico.  Israel is being extremely lenient.

Your whining about how far you can throw a pipe bomb, is ridiculous.

I don't care if you are such a pathetic wimp, that you can't toss it 1 foot.

The fact you have a pipe bomb, makes you a terrorist.

Unless you think making pipe bombs, is just part of the Palestinian Cub Scouts, and they are just trying earn their patch.

Israeli forces kill two Palestinians near border as Gaza buries dead

"protesters were using hundreds of pipe bombs, grenades and fire-bombs. Militants had opened fire on Israeli troops and tried to set off explosives by the fence."



 

Peaceful protesting, the left-wing brain damaged way.

You do any of this, you deserve to die.  You get what is due you.

You take a child into this, and you deserve what happens to you, or your child.

You make stupid choices, and you get stupid results, and no one but other stupid people like you, will care.


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## fncceo (May 24, 2018)

Looks like the worst way to hurt Gaza is by blockading the import of cheap jeans.


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## RoccoR (May 24, 2018)

Forums >  Global Discussion > Israel and Palestine >

RE:  Is it time for Israel to re-take Gaza? 
※→  Billo_Really, et al,

I can't possibly comment on one of Stephen Lendman's Hit'n'Run story that is a decade older at a minimum.  He is a prolific writer with lots of energy.  He probably cranks these out at a rate of three-or-four a week from interviews out of bars patronized by old veterans telling war stories.  He has been to all the major hot-spots of interest around the world.  He has even pumped-out a couple books.  And on all around general knowledge, he would beat the pants off most everyone.  But in this case, you are quoting material he wrote a decade ago.



Billo_Really said:


> Maybe in England; but in Palestine, a *Johnnie* is...
> 
> *Testimony 1 – Human Shield*
> 
> ...


*(COMMENT)*

In my day, nearly a half-century ago, we called them Kit Carson Scouts.  They were always out front, supplying reconnaissance and intelligence information at the quick.  The point is that the use of such exploited locals can often refer pejoratively to the supply of information in real-time while on the move --- spotlighting signs of danger that would not otherwise be noticed.  I think most militaries and special operators experimented using these resources as a type of tactical HUMINT asset, and sometimes only as a one-time source.  It depends on who is using them.  Each Service and organization has a different application and a different protocol.  In the opening phases of such programs, there is plenty of opportunity for mistakes and misuse.  BUT in the last fifty years, or more, have we ever seen a regime the use of resources as have we've seen with HAMAS and the March of Return?

Most Respectfully,
R


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## Sixties Fan (May 24, 2018)

Billo_Really said:


> fncceo said:
> 
> 
> >
> ...


You get garbage about the IDF and Israel from anti Israel sources.
No wonder your mind is completely gone.

Global Research is an anti Israel piece of garbage. 

 And so is Breaking the Silence, which does nothing but smear IDF soldiers in order to turn people's mind like yours into a teasy, which with you is the easiest thing to do.

Funded by anti Israel organizations and countries it provides "testimonies" which are not verifiable.
--------
The video focuses on the claim of a Breaking the Silence activist, Dean Issacharoff, who claimed at a protest rally that he was compelled by his commanding officer to tie up and beat a Palestinian prisoner while his soldiers watched. “I grabbed him by the neck and started to knee him in the face and chest until he was bleeding and unconscious,” Issacharoff claimed.

The soldiers in the video, who served with Issacharoff in the army, strenuously deny his version of events. A number of them are filmed looking directly into the camera and telling Issacharoff, “you’re a liar.” Another soldier asks, “Where do you come up with this stuff?”

“Your soldiers trusted you and you spat on them,” says another.

Watch the video below:


‘You’re a Liar,’ Israeli Soldiers Tell Breaking The Silence Activist in Hard-Hitting New Video

--------------------------------------------

You embrace anyone who lies about Jews and especially Israel.

Time for you to do some soul searching, ne pas?


----------



## Sixties Fan (May 24, 2018)

RoccoR said:


> Forums >  Global Discussion > Israel and Palestine >
> 
> RE:  Is it time for Israel to re-take Gaza?
> ※→  Billo_Really, et al,
> ...





Billo_Really said:


> fncceo said:
> 
> 
> >
> ...


[Why do you love people who lie about Israel so much?]

Anyone who understands the true nature of the extreme left-wing organizations operating in Israel is probably not surprised. For many years, B’Tselem has been extracting false testimonies from “innocent” Palestinians who claim they were tortured by Israeli security forces or IDF soldiers. B’Tselem has published these claims in academic journals and presented the data as organized research.

In practice, however, this amateurish work is carried out entirely by Palestinians who have no special training, and who are being paid by other Palestinians or pro-Palestinians. Most of the claims made by B’Tselem over the years have been found by courts to be unreliable, unsubstantiated, or just outright false.

The methods used by the two organizations are similar, except Breaking the Silence employs former Israeli soldiers to record testimonies from current and former soldiers. Both are pro-Palestinian organizations. Their funding comes from Palestinian sources, but Breaking the Silence receives support from Israeli left-wing sources as well.

Not surprisingly, Breaking the Silence focuses its fund-raising efforts on foreign governments, especially in Europe.

The organization’s promotional materials have been translated into a number of languages, and its representatives spend most of their time defaming Israel within government bodies and academic institutions across the sea, which is enough to raise suspicion about the organization’s true intentions.

After all, if Breaking the Silence really intended to carry out the mission it said it was working for, then it would be focusing its activities instead within Israel and engaging with the Israeli authorities. The fact that most of their activity takes place within foreign organizations proves that their main goal is to make defamatory statements against the State of Israel and to incite hatred and anti-Israeli sentiment until the occupation in the territories has come to an end.

The ironic part is that the Israel Defense Forces is probably the most moral military in the world. Now that it has become clear that Breaking the Silence and B’Tselem promote false testimonies based on lies and self-hatred, we see that there is no difference between the activity of these organizations and the incitement carried out by the Northern Branch of the Islamic Movement, which has already been declared illegal by Israel.

(full article online]

Breaking the Silence must be silenced

------------------

If possible, bringing the subject back to the topic of this thread..........

Yes.....Israel AND Egypt should take Gaza back.  Then there will be a good future for all the people there.

Enough with the hate education they get on a daily basis.  To most, all they want is a decent life to bring up their families, the way Arabs 
are allowed to do in Israel .

Then NGO lying groups like the ones above will cease to exist.


----------



## Billo_Really (May 24, 2018)

Andylusion said:


> So.... Israel did allow free trade into Gaza, until Hamas was put in place, and started using that to import weapons and war making supplies.   That includes things like cement, which Hamas used to make a network of tunnels, to go and kill Israelis with.


Why can't Hamas have weapons? Are you saying they have no right to defend themselves?




Andylusion said:


> With all due respect, if Mexico was building tunnels to kidnap Americans with, we would do a heck of a lot more than simply blockading Mexico.  Israel is being extremely lenient.


Would we blockade Mexico, because we didn't like who they elected as their President?



Andylusion said:


> Your whining about how far you can throw a pipe bomb, is ridiculous.


No its not.  You're claiming it is a threat.  Life threatening.  Can you throw a pipe bomb the length of a football field?  Can you throw anything the length of a football field?  The buffer Zone is 300 meters.  That's 900 feet.  If you think someone throwing a rock at you from that distance is a threat to your life, then you are either a fucking liar, or the biggest pussy on the planet.



Andylusion said:


> I don't care if you are such a pathetic wimp, that you can't toss it 1 foot.
> 
> The fact you have a pipe bomb, makes you a terrorist.


Israel has a lot of bombs; in fact, they have THE BOMB, does that make them a terrorist?



Andylusion said:


> Unless you think making pipe bombs, is just part of the Palestinian Cub Scouts, and they are just trying earn their patch.


I think whatever they choose to do on their own property, is none of Israels goddamn business!



Andylusion said:


> Israeli forces kill two Palestinians near border as Gaza buries dead
> 
> "protesters were using hundreds of pipe bombs, grenades and fire-bombs. Militants had opened fire on Israeli troops and tried to set off explosives by the fence."
> 
> ...


It might be stupid, but it is not illegal.  What is illegal, is using deadly force on people who are no threat to your life.  You cannot target people who take no part in hostilities.  You cannot treat everyone in Gaza like   no one is innocent.


----------



## Sixties Fan (May 24, 2018)

Billo_Really said:


> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> > So.... Israel did allow free trade into Gaza, until Hamas was put in place, and started using that to import weapons and war making supplies.   That includes things like cement, which Hamas used to make a network of tunnels, to go and kill Israelis with.
> ...


You make an absolutely WONDERFUL  apologist for terrorists.

Ta, ta, ta, rah!!!!!

Ladies and gentlemen,  one of the best defense lawyers for terrorists who enjoy killing Jews and have every intention of some day destroying Israel .

That is, if Israel is ever stupid enough to let them.


----------



## Billo_Really (May 24, 2018)

RoccoR said:


> Forums >  Global Discussion > Israel and Palestine >
> 
> RE:  Is it time for Israel to re-take Gaza?
> ※→  Billo_Really, et al,
> ...


These aren't old veterans, they're IDF soldiers who took part in Operation Cast Lead.


----------



## Billo_Really (May 24, 2018)

Sixties Fan said:


> You get garbage about the IDF and Israel from anti Israel sources.
> No wonder your mind is completely gone.
> 
> Global Research is an anti Israel piece of garbage.
> ...


Breaking the Silence are IDF soldiers.  Are you saying the IDF is anti-Israel?


----------



## Sixties Fan (May 24, 2018)

Billo_Really said:


> Sixties Fan said:
> 
> 
> > You get garbage about the IDF and Israel from anti Israel sources.
> ...


Just like you, Breaking the Silence likes to lie about Israel :

Breaking the Silence Gets Failing Grade in Channel 10’s Fact-Check | CAMERA


----------



## Billo_Really (May 24, 2018)

Sixties Fan said:


> [Why do you love people who lie about Israel so much?]
> 
> Anyone who understands the true nature of the extreme left-wing organizations operating in Israel is probably not surprised. For many years, B’Tselem has been extracting false testimonies from “innocent” Palestinians who claim they were tortured by Israeli security forces or IDF soldiers. B’Tselem has published these claims in academic journals and presented the data as organized research.
> 
> ...


I don't have any reason to lie.  You do.

Why is it so hard to believe Israel tortures Palestinians?  You, yourself, defends the shooting of unarmed protesters.


----------



## Sixties Fan (May 24, 2018)

Billo_Really said:


> Sixties Fan said:
> 
> 
> > You get garbage about the IDF and Israel from anti Israel sources.
> ...


Some ex IDF soldiers "witnessing" does not the whole IDF make.
Especially when they are caught at lying quite a lot.

But you can try.


----------



## Sixties Fan (May 24, 2018)

Billo_Really said:


> Sixties Fan said:
> 
> 
> > [Why do you love people who lie about Israel so much?]
> ...


You are sick.


----------



## Billo_Really (May 24, 2018)

Sixties Fan said:


> You make an absolutely WONDERFUL  apologist for terrorists.
> 
> Ta, ta, ta, rah!!!!!
> 
> ...


People resisting an occupational force, are not terrorists.


----------



## Billo_Really (May 24, 2018)

Sixties Fan said:


> Just like you, Breaking the Silence likes to lie about Israel :
> 
> Breaking the Silence Gets Failing Grade in Channel 10’s Fact-Check | CAMERA


How could an Israeli media outlet know who the soldiers were who testified, when the testimonies were anonymous?   Who's that minister Ava Leigavor?  He came out and said publicly, there are no innocents in Gaza.  The Goldstone Report stated the IDF was shooting people holding up white flags.  

This is nothing more than a grade school smear campaign on your part.


----------



## Sixties Fan (May 24, 2018)

Billo_Really said:


> Sixties Fan said:
> 
> 
> > You make an absolutely WONDERFUL  apologist for terrorists.
> ...


They are only resisting JEWS being sovereign on land once conquered by Muslims.

Otherwise, many of the Muslims in Israel and Judea and Samaria are just fine with the Jews having some of their ancient homeland back.
And very happy to get health care, jobs and education in Israel.

You have a mind occupied by hatred of Jews, exactly as so many other Christians and Muslims do.

Pray.  Pray really hard to get rid of it.


----------



## Sixties Fan (May 24, 2018)

Billo_Really said:


> Sixties Fan said:
> 
> 
> > Just like you, Breaking the Silence likes to lie about Israel :
> ...


You continue to know nothing and care about nothing.

BDS somewhere else.

Israel will not cave in to lunatics like you.


----------



## Billo_Really (May 24, 2018)

Sixties Fan said:


> Some ex IDF soldiers "witnessing" does not the whole IDF make.
> Especially when they are caught at lying quite a lot.
> 
> But you can try.


But they weren't caught, because they didn't lie.

If they were lying, why is it Israeli authorities will not allow an independent investigation of these events to see for themselves?


----------



## Hollie (May 24, 2018)

Billo_Really said:


> Sixties Fan said:
> 
> 
> > You make an absolutely WONDERFUL  apologist for terrorists.
> ...



They are when they commit acts of Islamic terrorism.


----------



## Billo_Really (May 24, 2018)

Sixties Fan said:


> You are sick.


So is making up bullshit reasons to kill people.


----------



## fncceo (May 24, 2018)

There have always been people who hate Jews and who manufacture reasons to rationalize their hatred.  After so long, antisemitism becomes white noise.  

We’ve learned, the hard way, to not meekly submit to those who can harm us and to ignore those who can’t.


----------



## Billo_Really (May 24, 2018)

Sixties Fan said:


> They are only resisting JEWS being sovereign on land once conquered by Muslims.
> 
> Otherwise, many of the Muslims in Israel and Judea and Samaria are just fine with the Jews having some of their ancient homeland back.
> And very happy to get health care, jobs and education in Israel.
> ...


They're resisting the Israeli military.  This has nothing to do with Judaism.


----------



## Billo_Really (May 24, 2018)

Sixties Fan said:


> You continue to know nothing and care about nothing.
> 
> BDS somewhere else.
> 
> Israel will not cave in to lunatics like you.


Oh yes you will.  Bully's never win.  They always whind up getting their ass kicked.  Just like the Germans in WWII.


----------



## Billo_Really (May 24, 2018)

Hollie said:


> They are when they commit acts of Islamic terrorism.


I would agree; but they are not doing that.


----------



## Hollie (May 24, 2018)

Billo_Really said:


> Sixties Fan said:
> 
> 
> > They are only resisting JEWS being sovereign on land once conquered by Muslims.
> ...


They’re pious Moslems following the writ of an Arab warlord who they worship.


----------



## Billo_Really (May 24, 2018)

Hollie said:


> They’re pious Moslems following the writ of an Arab warlord who they worship.


And Zionists are violating The Three Oaths.


----------



## Hollie (May 24, 2018)

Billo_Really said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> > They are when they commit acts of Islamic terrorism.
> ...


Actually, they are doing that. 

The tactics derive from written manifestos. One written in the 7th century, one written more recently.


----------



## Hollie (May 24, 2018)

Billo_Really said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> > They’re pious Moslems following the writ of an Arab warlord who they worship.
> ...


There’s an oath prohibiting self defense?


----------



## Hollie (May 24, 2018)

Billo_Really said:


> Sixties Fan said:
> 
> 
> > You continue to know nothing and care about nothing.
> ...


Just like the Arabs-Moslems since 1948.


----------



## Shusha (May 24, 2018)

Billo_Really said:


> Why can't Hamas have weapons? Are you saying they have no right to defend themselves?



Because they, like you, don't understand the difference between defending themselves and "ripping the hearts out of Jews".  As soon as they get that simple concept, they will realize they don't need weapons and that what they DO need is water and sewage infrastructure, trade agreements, a thriving tourism, universities for higher education, and equal human rights for all.


----------



## Billo_Really (May 25, 2018)

Hollie said:


> Actually, they are doing that.
> 
> The tactics derive from written manifestos. One written in the 7th century, one written more recently.


Their tactics are in response to Israeli aggression.


----------



## Billo_Really (May 25, 2018)

Hollie said:


> There’s an oath prohibiting self defense?


An occupational force cannot claim self defense.


----------



## Billo_Really (May 25, 2018)

Hollie said:


> Just like the Arabs-Moslems since 1948.


The Arabs fought a bully in 1948 and lost.  Bully's win at first, but in the end, the bully always gets the shit kicked out of him.  Always.  

Israel is on the wrong side of history.


----------



## Billo_Really (May 25, 2018)

Shusha said:


> Because they, like you, don't understand the difference between defending themselves and "ripping the hearts out of Jews".  As soon as they get that simple concept, they will realize they don't need weapons and that what they DO need is water and sewage infrastructure, trade agreements, a thriving tourism, universities for higher education, and equal human rights for all.


And you don't understand that you are at fault for the things you decide to do.  Not them.  They are not at fault for your decision to make their lives a daily hell.  They are not at fault you decide to take their land at gun point, murder them, humiliate them and treat them like total garbage with no rights whatsoever.  That is not their fault; that is your fault.  And you will be held accountable.  Guaranteed.

There is a just God.  And I believe there is a big possibility, HE just doesn't like you!


----------



## Mindful (May 26, 2018)

I can't find any mention of today's Gaza Gay Pride Parade.


----------



## Sixties Fan (May 26, 2018)

Mindful said:


> I can't find any mention of today's Gaza Gay Pride Parade.


Is there one about the "Women's Liberation Parade" ?


----------

