# Should foreign language be a required to graduate high school?



## Chad2000k

Should foreign language be a required class to graduate high school???   Its one of those things that older people say you need to succeed in the "job" world... If you think about it, have you guys ever taken such a course in high school?  I mean you could, but was it required at all to get into college or to either graduate and finally get out of high school.  Nowadays it seems they are pushing us (students) to the limits.  They make it required but for real, 99% of us forget about it and its just not worth takin in the first place because this is an english-speaking country, and the last time i checked i'll be going to an english speaking college which i'm willing to pay so much for just to get a degree and get a job.  What does everyone think???  Employers are more than welcome to reply....


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## Hobbit

Chad2000k said:
			
		

> Should foreign language be a required class to graduate high school???   Its one of those things that older people say you need to succeed in the "job" world... If you think about it, have you guys ever taken such a course in high school?  I mean you could, but was it required at all to get into college or to either graduate and finally get out of high school.  Nowadays it seems they are pushing us (students) to the limits.  They make it required but for real, 99% of us forget about it and its just not worth takin in the first place because this is an english-speaking country, and the last time i checked i'll be going to an english speaking college which i'm willing to pay so much for just to get a degree and get a job.  What does everyone think???  Employers are more than welcome to reply....



I a global marketplace, knowing at least one foreign language is a virtue, as it smoothes relations with foreign clients.  Learning another language also helps to understand your own.  The problem is not that it's required, but when it's taught.  By high school, most people have firmly rooted themselves in their primary language.  However, younger brains are more...malleable in the ways of language.  If foreign languages were taught in elementary school, they could be taught faster and more thoroughly, and they would be more likely to retain that knowledge, with high school level courses being more like high school level English courses, concentrating on the subtleties of the language rather than basic syntax and vocabulary.


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## GotZoom

I say yes. 

I say you can't learn too much in school.  Keep the mind busy.


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## MissileMan

I'm going to say Yes, the children of immigrants, both legal and illegal, should be required to learn English, a language foreign to them, before they can graduate from an American school.


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## Gunny

MissileMan said:
			
		

> I'm going to say Yes, the children of immigrants, both legal and illegal, should be required to learn English, a language foreign to them, before they can graduate from an American school.



Damn.  I voted "no" before I read your post. 

I don't think US persons who speak English as a primary language should be required to learn a second one.  While it can only enhance one's credentials, I don't feel something like this should be compulsory.

Some people really suck at foreign languages, btw.


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## manu1959

yes

two years worth


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## Chad2000k

Hobbit said:
			
		

> I a global marketplace, knowing at least one foreign language is a virtue, as it smoothes relations with foreign clients.  Learning another language also helps to understand your own.  The problem is not that it's required, but when it's taught.  By high school, most people have firmly rooted themselves in their primary language.


Yes, on the contary although if you are working at an inner country job that doesnt require foreign language, then thats the whole point of not wasting a whole year or maybe two years when it could help us academically in another area. 


			
				Hobbit said:
			
		

> However, younger brains are more...malleable in the ways of language.  If foreign languages were taught in elementary school, they could be taught faster and more thoroughly, and they would be more likely to retain that knowledge, with high school level courses being more like high school level English courses, concentrating on the subtleties of the language rather than basic syntax and vocabulary.


Thats true as well, but why prepare for something that may not happen in the future.  So its like preparing ourselves for a nuclear attack from anywhere, possibly al-quadea, in the end the u.s. government will stop and protect us and so its like a waste of time...


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## Chad2000k

MissileMan said:
			
		

> I'm going to say Yes, the children of immigrants, both legal and illegal, should be required to learn English, a language foreign to them, before they can graduate from an American school.


Good point, i never thought of it being that way.


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## USViking

No, because we are already doing a lousy job
teaching children the read and write _English._

And even if we were doing a good job, I think
foreign languages should be entirely elective.

Some people, such as me, are just no damn good
at learning foreign languages, and they should be
allowed to focus in areas where they are more skilled.

I took Latin _and_ French throughout junior and
senior high, and I never could read a paragraph
of any but the simplest prose. It was a complete
waste of a lot of time.


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## Chad2000k

USViking said:
			
		

> No, because we are already doing a lousy job
> teaching children the read and write _English._
> 
> And even if we were doing a good job, I think
> foreign languages should be entirely elective.
> 
> Some people, such as me, are just no damn good
> at learning foreign languages, and they should be
> allowed to focus in areas where they are more skilled.
> 
> I took Latin _and_ French throughout junior and
> senior high, and I never could read a paragraph
> of any but the simplest prose. It was a complete
> waste of a lot of time.


Yeah thanx USViking, the money we spend on foreign language is better to be spent on learning english more effiecently so that we all have a base language rather than changin our language just because we have sooo many mexican immigrants coming into the country, the mexicans should learn our language so that way they can get a job and whatnot in america where our forefathers have spoken english since the time of the 13 colonies.


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## Annie

I think at least two years, preferably 4. At the same time, I will say that being deaf I have not been able to ever study a language to the point where I can speak it fluently. I have been able to read quite abit of both French and Spanish, so not a waste by any means.


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## Shattered

The most I know is a dozen or so words from probably 4 different languages.. If I'd have been forced to learn them, I'd have failed.  I have no patience for it, and far more enjoyed other classes.  I live here, I have no intention of moving to another country.  However, I believe that legal/illegal immigrants should be required to learn English if they're going to live here.


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## GotZoom

It isn't necessarily about using the language at a later date.  It's about mental discipline and also, like Hobbit pointed out, it makes you understand your own language better. 

When I was in school, we had to have two years of a foreign language.  I took Spanish through junior high school.  Then High School.  I never used it in more than a social level. 

Once I moved to Italy, knowing Spanish allowed me to become fluent in Italian in less than 6 months.  

Knowing Spanish also made me more aware of how the English language worked.  This made my English/Business double major in college possible.


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## 5stringJeff

I say yes, every high school graduate should have at least one year of a foreign language.


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## 5stringJeff

MissileMan said:
			
		

> I'm going to say Yes, the children of immigrants, both legal and illegal, should be required to learn English, a language foreign to them, before they can graduate from an American school.



Totally agree on that point.

What about those of us who are not children of immigrants?


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## 007

No. It should be a choice, not a demand, even though I think it's a good idea to take a foriegn language.

If you're born in America, grow up in America, educated in America, and live and work your life in America, there shouldn't ever be a NEED for you to know a foriegn language.


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## Shattered

Pale Rider said:
			
		

> No. It should be a choice, not a demand, even though I think it's a good idea to take a foriegn language.
> 
> If you're born in America, grow up in America, educated in America, and live and work your life in America, there shouldn't ever be a NEED for you to know a foriegn language.



Now now..  There's a couple words in a couple different languages that I'm GLAD I know.    I <i>*needed*</i> to know them a couple times.  

But I still believe it should be elective in most cases...


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## The ClayTaurus

Learning a foreign language can actually improve your English skills, particularly if you take Latin or Greek, and probably Spanish/Italian, French, and German as well. When you begin to see words have the same construction between two different languages, you increase your English ability. Plus, the days of only working with American customers are fleeting.


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## The ClayTaurus

Shattered said:
			
		

> Now now..  There's a couple words in a couple different languages that I'm GLAD I know.    I <i>*needed*</i> to know them a couple times.
> 
> But I still believe it should be elective in most cases...


Yeah... I took Spanish in high school, and hated it until one day, while I was working at the mall, two normal-looking women who spoke perfect english to me started talking in Spanish amongst themselves about the fake check they were going to pay with. They were quiet, but assumed the big white kid who had been bringing them shoes to try on couldn't speak Spanish. Turns out they were wrong 

Learning a language opens doors, and if they could replace trivial shit like phys-ed with foreign language, I think it'd be a great idea.


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## Hobbit

The ClayTaurus said:
			
		

> Yeah... I took Spanish in high school, and hated it until one day, while I was working at the mall, two normal-looking women who spoke perfect english to me started talking in Spanish amongst themselves about the fake check they were going to pay with. They were quiet, but assumed the big white kid who had been bringing them shoes to try on couldn't speak Spanish. Turns out they were wrong
> 
> Learning a language opens doors, and if they could replace trivial shit like phys-ed with foreign language, I think it'd be a great idea.



Yeah, I know that feeling.  I once heard two people behind talking about me in the student union.  About mid-conversation, I busted into their conversation with "That's just rude!"  The whole thing was in Mandarin Chinese.  Bet they never saw _that_ coming.


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## The ClayTaurus

Hobbit said:
			
		

> Yeah, I know that feeling.  I once heard two people behind talking about me in the student union.  About mid-conversation, I busted into their conversation with "That's just rude!"  The whole thing was in Mandarin Chinese.  Bet they never saw _that_ coming.


Where did you learn mandarin?


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## Mr. P

The ClayTaurus said:
			
		

> Where did you learn mandarin?


Bubbas Chinese Buffet, of course! Geeezzzzzz :funnyface


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## Hagbard Celine

Pale Rider said:
			
		

> No. It should be a choice, not a demand, even though I think it's a good idea to take a foriegn language.
> 
> If you're born in America, grow up in America, educated in America, and live and work your life in America, there shouldn't ever be a NEED for you to know a foriegn language.


I think there will be a need in the coming century since hispanics are now the largest and fasted growing "minority" in North America. I would go so far as to say they should teach kids Spanish starting in elementary school.


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## Hobbit

The ClayTaurus said:
			
		

> Where did you learn mandarin?



Zai xueyuan.


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## Mr. P

Hagbard Celine said:
			
		

> I think there will be a need in the coming century since hispanics are now the largest and fasted growing "minority" in North America. I would go so far as to say they should teach kids Spanish starting in elementary school.


They already have, or did, see the future need years ago. When I was in grade school in Fort Lauderdale, Florida, (early 60s), when Cuba was sending waves of refugees to Miami we had ½ hr or so of Spanish a few times a week. I still remember a few words. On the other hand, I had Latin in HS and pretty much remember nothing. Elementary school is the place to start.


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## no1tovote4

There are several reasons to require it, in my opinion.  Not the least of which is the fact that those who are bilingual or know even more languages are less likely to suffer severe depression as teens that causes so many of our young to commit suicide.

I have fun talking with my younguns in ASL (American Sign Language), but they never really caught on to Russian, I have high hopes for that later.

I would prefer language to be introduced much younger than in High School when many have already lost the real ability to absorb a language in full.


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## The ClayTaurus

Hobbit said:
			
		

> Zai xueyuan.


I don't know what that means.


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## Annie

no1tovote4 said:
			
		

> There are several reasons to require it, in my opinion.  Not the least of which is the fact that those who are bilingual or know even more languages are less likely to suffer severe depression as teens that causes so many of our young to commit suicide.
> 
> I have fun talking with my younguns in ASL (American Sign Language), but they never really caught on to Russian, I have high hopes for that later.
> 
> I would prefer language to be introduced much younger than in High School when many have already lost the real ability to absorb a language in full.



Yep we are lucky at our school, Spanish begins in kindergarten. I wish though that instead it was Latin, the kids would still pick up Spanish, but also easily Italian, French and even Greece.


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## The ClayTaurus

Kathianne said:
			
		

> Yep we are lucky at our school, Spanish begins in kindergarten. I wish though that instead it was Latin, the kids would still pick up Spanish, but also easily Italian, French and even Greece.


Not to mention vast improvement in English as well.


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## Annie

The ClayTaurus said:
			
		

> Not to mention vast improvement in English as well.


Agreed.


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## Mr.Conley

I grudingly took Mandarin for 7 years just to catch someone insult me once. And when it finally happened... oh that was a good day. Foreign devils are filthy and stupid my ass.

And that is why I support learning a forgein language.


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## USViking

The ClayTaurus said:
			
		

> Learning a foreign language can actually improve your English skills, particularly if you take Latin or Greek, and probably Spanish/Italian, French, and German as well. When you begin to see words have the same construction between two different languages, you increase your English ability. Plus, the days of only working with American customers are fleeting.


I took both Latin and French for six years,
and doing so did not improve my skills in
either of them, or in English, one iota.

And as I mentioned earlier, we are now
doing such a poor job in English that as
a practical matter it makes no sense at all
to impose foreign language requirements
as well. 

How can a student not incompetent in his 
own language possibly be expected to do 
any better in a foreign language?

We should attain a true literacy rate of
at least 90% in English before we even
consider requiring literacy in another.


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## USViking

Mr.Conley said:
			
		

> I grudingly took Mandarin for 7 years just to catch someone insult me once. And when it finally happened... oh that was a good day. Foreign devils are filthy and stupid my ass.
> 
> And that is why I support learning a forgein language.


If someone wants to take a foreign language
on the chance that after seven years they
might be able to pick up a few swear words, 
fine, but I fail to see how that can be grounds
for requiring anyone else to do likewise.


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## GotZoom

USViking said:
			
		

> I took both Latin and French for six years,
> and doing so did not improve my skills in
> either of them, or in English, one iota.
> 
> And as I mentioned earlier, we are now
> doing such a poor job in English that as
> a practical matter it makes no sense at all
> to impose foreign language requirements
> as well.
> 
> How can a student not incompetent in his
> own language possibly be expected to do
> any better in a foreign language?
> 
> We should attain a true literacy rate of
> at least 90% in English before we even
> consider requiring literacy in another.




Requiring a student to learn a foreign language will not negatively effect his ability to learn anything else in school. 

The problem in our schools today isn't what they are learning or not learning. It is the attention of the parents...or lack thereof... in regards to what the children are doing while in school and with their schoolwork.


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## The ClayTaurus

USViking said:
			
		

> I took both Latin and French for six years,
> and doing so did not improve my skills in
> either of them, or in English, one iota.
> 
> And as I mentioned earlier, we are now
> doing such a poor job in English that as
> a practical matter it makes no sense at all
> to impose foreign language requirements
> as well.
> 
> How can a student not incompetent in his
> own language possibly be expected to do
> any better in a foreign language?
> 
> We should attain a true literacy rate of
> at least 90% in English before we even
> consider requiring literacy in another.


I would argue that taking Latin most certainly improved you English abilities, unless you took everything you learned and sealed it up in a vacuum bag...


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## USViking

The ClayTaurus said:
			
		

> I would argue that taking Latin most certainly improved you English abilities, unless you took everything you learned and sealed it up in a vacuum bag...


I am in a better position than you to know
if Latin helped me in any way, and I can
tell you it did not.

I simply have no aptitude for learning other
languages. The amount I learned would fit
a very small bag indeed.


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## theHawk

I voted no....

I have a degree in a foreign language and I have studied a half dozen different languages at one point or another.  Personally I love studying languages but I really do not think it should be a "requirement" in our high schools.  There are some poeple out there who just cannot learn certain languages.  And just because a person cannot learn a certain language, does not mean they are stupid or they cannot learn any foreign languages at all.  One person may not be able to be any good at all in Russian, but may excel in Persian Farsi.  In order for high schools to really fairly accomodate for everyone would be to provide many different options ranging from Romance languages to slovic, Asian and more....you get the drift.  This is just not feasible in our high schools.  Most will only teach Spanish, French, and German.  If we really want our students to learn foreign languages they need to start teaching them at very young ages.  Elementary school kids can learn a new language much easier than teenager or adults.  I think foreign language should be highly encouraged, starting in grade school, but I do not think anyone should be denied the right to graduate if they can't or just don't want to learn another language.


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## The ClayTaurus

USViking said:
			
		

> I am in a better position than you to know
> if Latin helped me in any way, and I can
> tell you it did not.
> 
> I simply have no aptitude for learning other
> languages. The amount I learned would fit
> a very small bag indeed.


How much Latin did you take?


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## USViking

GotZoom said:
			
		

> Requiring a student to learn a foreign language will not negatively effect his ability to learn anything else in school.


As I keep saying, there are some people, like me, 
who can not learn a foreign language.

Therefore the time wasted on trying certainly does 
negatively affect their ability to learn other subjects: 
The more time available to learn anything the greater 
your ability to master it, provided you are capable of 
mastery to begin with.






			
				GotZoom said:
			
		

> The problem in our schools today isn't what they are learning or not learning.


Yes it is the problem






			
				GotZoom said:
			
		

> It is the attention of the parents...or lack thereof... in regards to what the children are doing while in school and with their schoolwork.


I agree this is the main reason for the problem. 

It is not part of the solution to impose subjects of 
secondary importance, such as other languages, 
which draw time away from subjects of primary 
importance, such as English.


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## USViking

The ClayTaurus said:
			
		

> How much Latin did you take?


Six years of both Latin and French, as I
mentioned in post #32 only about a half  
hour ago, in a post you quoted yourself.


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## The ClayTaurus

USViking said:
			
		

> Six years of both Latin and French, as I
> mentioned in post #32 only about a half
> hour ago, in a post you quoted yourself.


It wasn't clear if you took both simultaneously for six years, or, say one for 5 years and the other for 1. Hence the question. Need a hug?


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## GotZoom

USViking said:
			
		

> Six years of both Latin and French, as I
> mentioned in post #32 only about a half
> hour ago, in a post you quoted yourself.



You took them at the same time?

No wonder you were confused. 

One at a time..total immersion....

You can't learn conjugation of Verbs in two different languages at the same time.


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## Abbey Normal

I enjoyed taking languages, and am in favor of taking a language as an elective. Our state university requires three consecutive years of a language for admission, and they strongly suggest four! I think that is excessive, and can't help but wonder if it is another symptom of the current worship of multi-culturalism.


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## USViking

The ClayTaurus said:
			
		

> It wasn't clear if you took both simultaneously for six years, or, say one for 5 years and the other for 1. Hence the question. Need a hug?


Here is the exact breakdown:

French: grades 6-8-9-10-11-12

Latin: grades 8-9-10-11-12
(I also took about a month in grade 7, so 
strictly speaking, only five years for Latin).


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## GotZoom

USViking said:
			
		

> Here is the exact breakdown:
> 
> French: grades 6-8-9-10-11-12
> 
> Latin: grades 8-9-10-11-12
> (I also took about a month in grade 7, so
> strictly speaking, only five years for Latin).



I would have hated doing that too.

No wonder you didn't learn either one.


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## USViking

GotZoom said:
			
		

> You took them at the same time?
> 
> No wonder you were confused.
> 
> One at a time..total immersion....
> 
> You can't learn conjugation of Verbs in two different languages at the same time.


There were numerous other more gifted
students than me who had no problem
with the same curriculum.

I believe the classical education of Europe
well into the 20th century routinely required
classical and modern languages simultaneously.


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## USViking

theHawk said:
			
		

> I voted no....
> 
> I have a degree in a foreign language and I have studied a half dozen different languages at one point or another.  Personally I love studying languages but I really do not think it should be a "requirement" in our high schools.  There are some poeple out there who just cannot learn certain languages.  And just because a person cannot learn a certain language, does not mean they are stupid or they cannot learn any foreign languages at all.  One person may not be able to be any good at all in Russian, but may excel in Persian Farsi.  In order for high schools to really fairly accomodate for everyone would be to provide many different options ranging from Romance languages to slovic, Asian and more....you get the drift.  This is just not feasible in our high schools.  Most will only teach Spanish, French, and German.  If we really want our students to learn foreign languages they need to start teaching them at very young ages.  Elementary school kids can learn a new language much easier than teenager or adults.  I think foreign language should be highly encouraged, starting in grade school, but I do not think anyone should be denied the right to graduate if they can't or just don't want to learn another language.


I concur. Very well put.


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## The ClayTaurus

Abbey Normal said:
			
		

> I enjoyed taking languages, and am in favor of taking a language as an elective. Our state university requires three consecutive years of a language for admission, and they strongly suggest four! I think that is excessive, and can't help but wonder if it is another symptom of the current worship of multi-culturalism.


If only American culture was a significant part of multi-cultural worship, I'd be satisfied.


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## Trigg

I say yes.

But, and this is a big one, they should start teaching a foreign language in elementary school when kids learn the fastest and other languages come easier.

In Finland, where my sister lives, they start teaching English in 3rd grade. The kids are already reading and writing in their own language when English is intruduced and the classes are continued through high school. 

little kids are like sponges when it comes to learning new things.


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## Chad2000k

Originally Posted by theHawk
I voted no....

I have a degree in a foreign language and I have studied a half dozen different languages at one point or another. Personally I love studying languages but I really do not think it should be a "requirement" in our high schools. There are some poeple out there who just cannot learn certain languages. And just because a person cannot learn a certain language, does not mean they are stupid or they cannot learn any foreign languages at all. One person may not be able to be any good at all in Russian, but may excel in Persian Farsi. In order for high schools to really fairly accomodate for everyone would be to provide many different options ranging from Romance languages to slovic, Asian and more....you get the drift. This is just not feasible in our high schools. Most will only teach Spanish, French, and German. If we really want our students to learn foreign languages they need to start teaching them at very young ages. Elementary school kids can learn a new language much easier than teenager or adults. I think foreign language should be highly encouraged, starting in grade school, but I do not think anyone should be denied the right to graduate if they can't or just don't want to learn another language.>
Thats really good, you basically say what im tryin to say to hobbit. Theres ppl in the world that wanna grow up and translate for businesses, then there is ppl that simply just wanna communicate in an english enviroment at their workplace.  So really it should just be an elective, whats next are they gonna start saying that we have to take FACS (home economics) just because we need to learn how to cook and survive on our own???
PPL that come in to the united states on immigration in my opinon should only speak english since we speak english, otherwise they will have to pay for the translator bill which cost soooo much nowadays and i think katherine might have an idea of that (im assuming)....


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## Chad2000k

Trigg said:
			
		

> I say yes.
> 
> But, and this is a big one, they should start teaching a foreign language in elementary school when kids learn the fastest and other languages come easier.
> 
> In Finland, where my sister lives, they start teaching English in 3rd grade. The kids are already reading and writing in their own language when English is intruduced and the classes are continued through high school.
> 
> little kids are like sponges when it comes to learning new things.



Yess that makes sense too, although i woulda prolly done it then.  What im trying to say is that highschool is basically a way to better prepare u for college.  Taking spanish when u wont need it in college is sorta a waste unless ur a person who has nothing else to do.  Right now i would rather take another class that would better prepare me for college in a degree that i want.


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## Annie

The ClayTaurus said:
			
		

> Not to mention vast improvement in English as well.


Should have been Greek! My mistake, rushing at school.


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## Gunny

Hagbard Celine said:
			
		

> I think there will be a need in the coming century since hispanics are now the largest and fasted growing "minority" in North America. I would go so far as to say they should teach kids Spanish starting in elementary school.



Nah.  They should teach non-English-speaking kids English.  Why is WE always have to be the ones to roll over?


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## Chad2000k

GunnyL said:
			
		

> Nah.  They should teach non-English-speaking kids English.  Why is WE always have to be the ones to roll over?



Exactly, thats all we are, nothing but a bunch of pushovers.  A kid looks up to us for candy or something, we tell them after dinner, and they whine till we give up.  Is the REd Cross organization a united States based? and arnt we the only one funding it???  Well we are a pushover cuz they went over to the tsunami thing and we got nothing out of it except national thanks.  Where is that national thanks gonna get us in life???  The hurricane katrina makes more sense but we are a pushover there too cuz we are allowing all these poor citizens into our homes to help them get back on their feet when its their decision to live down there on the coast in the first place...Thats what bothers me the most, we give them money and such and help them out and whatnot, but its them who made the decision to live down there and risk their lives against a hurricane.  They should learn not to live down there and maybe half of them wont after living through that ordeal.  Its like giving candy to a baby that can possibly kill the baby, but we congratulate it if it decides not to eat it because it knows, or it eats the candy and kills themself or we in the end take it away cuz we know itll kill the baby.  That last example is prolly a bad one but Gunny thats basically the point, we are rolling over and learning because the governement was dumb enough not to come up with anything to stop all those legals and illegal immigrants into this country.  Like any other country, if you wanna visit them or study them, then you gots to learn their language, not make them learn your language bec then it puts the nation at risk for a maybe hispanic war of americans vs. hispanics.  ITs like the Mexico revolution allover again except in a modern version.  We americans need to step up and try to stop the immigrants from coming in to the country and taking our money home to their country.  I saw in a Times magazine of how much mexicans are taking back to mexico a year.  I'll have to look for that in the morning.


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## The ClayTaurus

Kathianne said:
			
		

> Should have been Greek! My mistake, rushing at school.


Hah. Wasn't trying to be smarmy. I really believe it improves English, non-sequitor typos aside.


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## 007

Hagbard Celine said:
			
		

> I think there will be a need in the coming century since hispanics are now the largest and fasted growing "minority" in North America. I would go so far as to say they should teach kids Spanish starting in elementary school.



I guess what I don't understand is why you, or anyone else, would see the solution as, "teach Americans spanish", instead of, "teach mexicans english". This is America. Shouldn't you speak "our" language? Why is it always America's duty to bend to the need of the foriegner's?

Sí tomé español en la preparatoria también, y lo recuerda bien. Y vivir en Arizona, lo vino cercano. Pero pienso todavía que una segunda lengua debe ser una elección.


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## Hobbit

The ClayTaurus said:
			
		

> I don't know what that means.



Eh, sorry for such a late reply, but it means "in college."


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## Chad2000k

Pale Rider said:
			
		

> I guess what I don't understand is why you, or anyone else, would see the solution as, "teach Americans spanish", instead of, "teach mexicans english". This is America. Shouldn't you speak "our" language? Why is it always America's duty to bend to the need of the foriegner's?
> 
> Sí tomé español en la preparatoria también, y lo recuerda bien. Y vivir en Arizona, lo vino cercano. Pero pienso todavía que una segunda lengua debe ser una elección.



Thanx Pale Rider, thats basically what my point was before this.  We need to make some changes.


----------



## Trigg

Pale Rider said:
			
		

> I guess what I don't understand is why you, or anyone else, would see the solution as, "teach Americans spanish", instead of, "teach mexicans english". This is America. Shouldn't you speak "our" language? Why is it always America's duty to bend to the need of the foriegner's?
> 
> .



If foreign countries had this outlook it would be very difficult for anyone to travel outside their own country. Most foreigners speak their own language and English. So all of them are "bending to the need of foreigners" and I'm glad since I like to travel and enjoy being understood.

So what's wrong with us learning a different language when Spanish is the most widely spoken foreign language in America and South America?  

I do agree that anyone moving to this country should learn the language.


----------



## Chad2000k

Trigg said:
			
		

> If foreign countries had this outlook it would be very difficult for anyone to travel outside their own country. Most foreigners speak their own language and English. So all of them are "bending to the need of foreigners" and I'm glad since I like to travel and enjoy being understood.
> 
> So what's wrong with us learning a different language when Spanish is the most widely spoken foreign language in America and South America?
> 
> I do agree that anyone moving to this country should learn the language.



Theres nothing wrong with us learning a different language, all im saying is we shouldnt *have* to learn a different language.  YEs, it should be there for us when we need it, but we dont need it at the moment so why should we take it, if ur a person that goes around traveling on business or pleasure into foreign countries then of course you ought to learn some of it or the basics of it before you go.  I agree to anyone who comes in this country should be given a pretty tough english exam stating the meaning of english words or whatnot.  This will help reduce a big amount of immigrants because they failed the test.  We need stronger border protection to our north and south since anyone can just "walk" right across the line.


----------



## The ClayTaurus

I'll never understand why people wouldn't be interested in learning as much as possible, especially for "free" in public schools.


----------



## Chad2000k

The ClayTaurus said:
			
		

> I'll never understand why people wouldn't be interested in learning as much as possible, especially for "free" in public schools.



Cuz we dont need it so we dont need to learn it.


----------



## The ClayTaurus

Chad2000k said:
			
		

> Cuz we dont need it so we dont need to learn it.


I bet you'd be surprised at the usefullness of knowing a foreign language. Sure, it might not be a focal requirement for whatever you do in life, but it could help you out in a pinch when you least expect it.


----------



## Abbey Normal

Chad2000k said:
			
		

> Cuz we dont need it so we dont need to learn it.



Chad, I am curious, which subjects do you think you will need?


----------



## Semper Fi

I'm in spanish 2 right now, I'll probably continue it at least another year. I dont think the topic is necessarily worth debating, I dont think its that big of a deal. 

However, I support the idea that foreign immigrant students should have to know english to graduate.


----------



## liberalogic

I love when people say they are terrible at foreign language so it shouldn't be required.  That could be applied to any subject in high school.

A foreign language is so valuable because not only does it help you understand your own language better, but it also forces you to think differently than you would in other classes.  I'm not saying we all need to be native speakers, but understanding the basics of any language can only help you broaden your resume and your thinking skills.

What's funny is that I took 4 years of Spanish in HS; I can't speak it well because as hard as I try, I'm the furthest thing from Spanish.  Though I can write it better than most native speakers because I learned it from a strict grammatical standpoint.


----------



## Semper Fi

liberalogic said:
			
		

> I love when people say they are terrible at foreign language so it shouldn't be required.  That could be applied to any subject in high school.
> 
> A foreign language is so valuable because not only does it help you understand your own language better, but it also forces you to think differently than you would in other classes.  I'm not saying we all need to be native speakers, but understanding the basics of any language can only help you broaden your resume and your thinking skills.
> 
> What's funny is that I took 4 years of Spanish in HS; I can't speak it well because as hard as I try, I'm the furthest thing from Spanish.  Though I can write it better than most native speakers because I learned it from a strict grammatical standpoint.



So does 4 years of spanish generally get you fluency? Just curious. I can hear you on the furthest thing from spanish, I am too. My accent is so not-spanish its funny to listen to.


----------



## Chad2000k

Abbey Normal said:
			
		

> Chad, I am curious, which subjects do you think you will need?



I wanna be an engineer, so im taking Auto-CAD classes to boost it.  To support it i also need Physics.


----------



## Abbey Normal

Chad2000k said:
			
		

> I wanna be an engineer, so im taking Auto-CAD classes to boost it.  To support it i also need Physics.



Taking courses to aid you in the future is logical. But- my husband got his engineering degree from a school that let him take almost no electives. Practically everything was related to engineering in some way. To this day, he regrets that his college eduction wasn't more well-rounded.


----------



## Annie

Abbey Normal said:
			
		

> Taking courses to aid you in the future is logical. But- my husband got his engineering degree from a school that let him take almost no electives. Practically everything was related to engineering in some way. To this day, he regrets that his college eduction wasn't more well-rounded.


Hey, he can always go back to university for more general education courses.  This coming from someone with 3 bachelor's and 3/4 of MS. Hey, I'm hoping for acceptance into a summer program, studying American Presidential documents! 2k + Room and Board and playing in archives!  Whoops, and 3 hours grad credit in history!


----------



## Abbey Normal

Kathianne said:
			
		

> Hey, he can always go back to university for more general education courses.  This coming from someone with 3 bachelor's and 3/4 of MS. Hey, I'm hoping for acceptance into a summer program, studying American Presidential documents! 2k + Room and Board and playing in archives!  Whoops, and 3 hours grad credit in history!



Three degrees simultaneously or consecutively?! 

The summer program sounds very interesting. Sounds like you will be on campus? 

It's never too late to learn, but as for my husband, we are focusing on paying for our daughter's college in a couple of years. He did get an MBA after the B.S., so there was that.


----------



## Annie

Abbey Normal said:
			
		

> Three degrees simultaneously or consecutively?!
> 
> The summer program sounds very interesting. Sounds like you will be on campus?
> 
> It's never too late to learn, but as for my husband, we are focusing on paying for our daughter's college in a couple of years. He did get an MBA after the B.S., so there was that.


Pol. Sci. and Sociology concurrently. History later.   Then started on MS in Edu., but family issues got in the way, though probably good, since it seems nearly impossible to get hired with Master's right now. They want you to get it after hire, but don't want to pay the 'up front' salary.  Probably even more important, I don't want to be an 'administrator' and that's what the program would have led to. 

Now I'm seriously thinking of going for 'summer MA' program in History.


----------



## Abbey Normal

Kathianne said:
			
		

> Pol. Sci. and Sociology concurrently. History later.   Then started on MS in Edu., but family issues got in the way, though probably good, since it seems nearly impossible to get hired with Master's right now. They want you to get it after hire, but don't want to pay the 'up front' salary.  Probably even more important, I don't want to be an 'administrator' and that's what the program would have led to.
> 
> Now I'm seriously thinking of going for 'summer MA' program in History.



Your degrees seem to complement each other. Very cool! 

Now that I work at the District level, I can see from the inside what a royal pain Administration is.  Good call by you.


----------



## liberalogic

Semper Fi said:
			
		

> So does 4 years of spanish generally get you fluency? Just curious. I can hear you on the furthest thing from spanish, I am too. My accent is so not-spanish its funny to listen to.



It should get you fluency in writing the language, but to truly speak it fluently (meaning to sound remotely close to a native), you'd probably have to go to a spanish-speaking country.  Though by the end of 4 years of HS spanish you should be able to understand most of what a native speaker is saying if they slow it down just a tad.


----------



## Working Man

Chad2000k said:
			
		

> Should foreign language be a required class to graduate high school???   Its one of those things that older people say you need to succeed in the "job" world... If you think about it, have you guys ever taken such a course in high school?  I mean you could, but was it
> 
> I feel that we should make sure that our students can speak English well, FIRST!
> 
> Just listen to some of the well known, well idolized, college students who play sports.. Are they ready to leave school and run the companies that keep our country strong?
> 
> I took latin in high school. My parents said it would help me in college. It didn't. It was a waste of my F'n time. I would have rather taken Spanish, or Itailian, or even Polish. (never know when you need a good peirogee)
> 
> If our kids don't become multilingual I feel they will lose opportunities in the job market to the new multilingual immagrants. Communication is key in this new economy. I hate to use the phrase" Global Economy" but in this case a reasonable person needs to be able to see how having the ability to speak to potential customers, clients, or suppliers makes a lot of sense..  No longer are we just buying the ingredients and making the finished product here. No longer are we predominently communicating with English speaking warehouse people, etc..  We are importing more, and maybe exporting a bit. But, the bottom line is that we are looking outward, from these shores for many things, including investment capitol. So,, having the language skills to communicate allows for more efficient business, and life.


----------



## Chad2000k

Kathianne said:
			
		

> Pol. Sci. and Sociology concurrently. History later.   Then started on MS in Edu., but family issues got in the way, though probably good, since it seems nearly impossible to get hired with Master's right now. They want you to get it after hire, but don't want to pay the 'up front' salary.  Probably even more important, I don't want to be an 'administrator' and that's what the program would have led to.
> 
> Now I'm seriously thinking of going for 'summer MA' program in History.



Wowsers!  So how long u been in college???  But yeah thats a lotta work to achieve, i dont think u get paid more based on your degrees like ur supposed to.  Its all based on experience, the longer experience u have in a certain area the more u ought to get paid in my opinion.  A friend i know owns a business in landscaping.  He hired someone fresh outta K-State, who has a Bachelor in groundskeeping which also has the highest degree in the company has to work on the yardwork instead of the design department.  Another guy has little more then him an hour cuz hes worked there for five yrs.  What im sayin is whatever degree u get, it wont give u enough experience as a person in the job world.  You might not be as qualified but u still have the same chances as getting as much as someone who has no college and worked for more than four yrs in the same position.


----------



## Annie

Chad2000k said:
			
		

> Wowsers!  So how long u been in college???  But yeah thats a lotta work to achieve, i dont think u get paid more based on your degrees like ur supposed to.  Its all based on experience, the longer experience u have in a certain area the more u ought to get paid in my opinion.  A friend i know owns a business in landscaping.  He hired someone fresh outta K-State, who has a Bachelor in groundskeeping which also has the highest degree in the company has to work on the yardwork instead of the design department.  Another guy has little more then him an hour cuz hes worked there for five yrs.  What im sayin is whatever degree u get, it wont give u enough experience as a person in the job world.  You might not be as qualified but u still have the same chances as getting as much as someone who has no college and worked for more than four yrs in the same position.



 Read a bit more, you'll know that was not at you.


----------



## USViking

liberalogic said:
			
		

> I love when people say they are terrible at foreign language so it shouldn't be required.
> 
> That could be applied to any subject in high school.


Right- so it is necessary to decide on a core curriculum 
of required subjects.

In my opinion these should be:

1. English
2. Math

Competence in these is a real, not theoretical prerequisite 
for ALL other subjects, except perhaps Art.

Until a student is competent in these, requiring others is worse 
than usleless, because they take time away from establishing 
core competence. 

If it takes 12 years to establish core competence, then the core 
subjects should be the only ones required.

In my own case, I had attained core competence well before
Junior High. I did not object, and do not object, once core
competence is attained, to requiring 1-2 years of exposure to 
Foreign Language, History, Science, Art, and other subjects. 

However, once these initial exposure requirements are met,
then there should be enough flexibility in the curriculum
to allow students to concentrate on subjects which they
enjoy most and are most skilled at.





			
				liberalogic said:
			
		

> A foreign language is so valuable because not only does it help you understand your own language better,


For my own experience of five full years Latin and six full 
years French the statement above is entirely inaccurate,
and I believe it is really sort of a nostrum in general. 






			
				liberalogic said:
			
		

> but it also forces you to think differently than you would in other classes.  I'm not saying we all need to be native speakers, but understanding the basics of any language can only help you broaden your resume and your thinking skills.


For my own experience of five full years Latin and six full 
years French the statement above is entirely inaccurate,
and I believe it is really sort of a nostrum in general. 






			
				liberalogic said:
			
		

> What's funny is that I took 4 years of Spanish in HS; I can't speak it well because as hard as I try, I'm the furthest thing from Spanish.  Though I can write it better than most native speakers because I learned it from a strict grammatical standpoint.


I wish I had as much ability myself.


----------



## liberalogic

USViking said:
			
		

> Right- so it is necessary to decide on a core curriculum
> of required subjects.
> 
> In my opinion these should be:
> 
> 1. English
> 2. Math
> 
> Competence in these is a real, not theoretical prerequisite
> for ALL other subjects, except perhaps Art.
> 
> Until a student is competent in these, requiring others is worse
> than usleless, because they take time away from establishing
> core competence.
> 
> If it takes 12 years to establish core competence, then the core
> subjects should be the only ones required.
> 
> In my own case, I had attained core competence well before
> Junior High. I did not object, and do not object, once core
> competence is attained, to requiring 1-2 years of exposure to
> Foreign Language, History, Science, Art, and other subjects.
> 
> However, once these initial exposure requirements are met,
> then there should be enough flexibility in the curriculum
> to allow students to concentrate on subjects which they
> enjoy most and are most skilled at.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> For my own experience of five full years Latin and six full
> years French the statement above is entirely inaccurate,
> and I believe it is really sort of a nostrum in general.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> For my own experience of five full years Latin and six full
> years French the statement above is entirely inaccurate,
> and I believe it is really sort of a nostrum in general.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I wish I had as much ability myself.



I completely agree with you about the idea of "core competence."  Part of the reason why we fall behind in math and science compared to other countries is because we don't establish these fundamental elements well in our educational system.  Part of that stems from the "new wave" of teaching styles that alienate substance and clarity for uniqueness and appeal.  For example, the math curriculum in my HS was developed by the University of Chicago.  Their method was to provide intense sections of reading infused with the mathematics to broaden our skills.  The problem, though, was that the reading was incredibly confusing, long, and unnecessary.  Instead of getting to the point and showing how to solve the problems with extensive examples, they would drag us through math history and other irrelevant details.  Call me "old school," but I resent many of the new approaches to teaching math that lack systematic development in problem solving.

Sorry to bore you with those details, it's just that I couldn't agree more with you about "core competence."  At the same time, though, I still disagree with your position on foreign language.  Simply taking a year or two will not cut it because the skill of learning another language takes years to develop, especially when you are surrounded by english all day.  

Being fairly familiar with a foreign language forces you to exercise parts of your brain that are not developed in other courses.  It's almost like you are learning to learn backwards since you are starting from english.  To me, any subject that enhances your cognitive development is important.  Also, while I know many patriotic people will object to this, the hispanic population is on the rise; it can't hurt to know a little spanish.  And while I wholeheartedly agree with your "core competence" argument, I think it's a bit misdirected.  If we really want to change that, we need to revamp the curriculum of many elementary, JR, and SR high schools.  That's where the problem lies, not in the addition of a foreign language requirement.


----------



## USViking

liberalogic said:
			
		

> I completely agree with you about the idea of "core competence."  Part of the reason why we fall behind in math and science compared to other countries is because we don't establish these fundamental elements well in our educational system.  Part of that stems from the "new wave" of teaching styles that alienate substance and clarity for uniqueness and appeal.  For example, the math curriculum in my HS was developed by the University of Chicago.  Their method was to provide intense sections of reading infused with the mathematics to broaden our skills.  The problem, though, was that the reading was incredibly confusing, long, and unnecessary.  Instead of getting to the point and showing how to solve the problems with extensive examples, they would drag us through math history and other irrelevant details.  Call me "old school," but I resent many of the new approaches to teaching math that lack systematic development in problem solving.
> 
> Sorry to bore you with those details, it's just that I couldn't agree more with you about "core competence."


I was interested by you experience, not bored. 
What you describe is a good example of the empty 
trendiness coming out of a lot of our Schools
of Education, which is confused with innovation.





			
				liberalogic said:
			
		

> At the same time, though, I still disagree with your position on foreign language.  Simply taking a year or two will not cut it because the skill of learning another language takes years to develop, especially when you are surrounded by english all day.


If a student enjoys foreign languages, and is good 
at them, then by all means let him take as many as 
he can squeeze in.

Students who do not enjoy them , and are not good
at them should not be required to take more than an
introductory 1-2 years.






			
				liberalogic said:
			
		

> Being fairly familiar with a foreign language forces you to exercise parts of your brain that are not developed in other courses.  It's almost like you are learning to learn backwards since you are starting from english. To me, any subject that enhances your cognitive development is important.


I am afraid my own brain did not enjoy these
advantages from having taken foreign languages.
I suspect the same is true for all who do not have
an aptitude for the subject.




			
				liberalogic said:
			
		

> Also, while I know many patriotic people will object to this, the hispanic population is on the rise; it can't hurt to know a little spanish.


This is a different issue, and for me it is not
a matter of patriotism, it is a matter of the
tremendous advantage of having a common
language. I feel all non-English speaking students 
should be educated entirely by immersion in English, 
as I believe they always were until the multicultural 
era began exercising its baleful influence.






			
				liberalogic said:
			
		

> And while I wholeheartedly agree with your "core competence" argument, I think it's a bit misdirected.  If we really want to change that, we need to revamp the curriculum of many elementary, JR, and SR high schools.  That's where the problem lies, not in the addition of a foreign language requirement.


I am not familiar enough with modern K1-12
curricula to comment.

I think, though, that the main problem with
education lies with the students, their families,
and politics.

For example, too many students are reared in a 
family culture where TV has driven reading and 
other intellectual activity from the field, or worse, 
the students succumb to an adolescent culture 
which is frankly anti-intellectual.

Then the politics of local education compound
the problem by allowing "social promotion" for
students who have not made the grade.


----------



## MissileMan

USViking said:
			
		

> For my own experience of five full years Latin and six full
> years French the statement above is entirely inaccurate,
> and I believe it is really sort of a nostrum in general.



I'm not sure how they taught Latin in your school, but the 4 years I took not only gave me a better understanding of English grammar, but also, at a minimum, quadrupled my vocabulary.


----------



## USViking

MissileMan said:
			
		

> I'm not sure how they taught Latin in your school, but the 4 years I took not only gave me a better understanding of English grammar, but also, at a minimum, quadrupled my vocabulary.


I am happy for you, honest.

I think I was taught Latin the way it had been traditionally 
taught for centuries. It was successful with many of the other 
students in my school. Some of them always got an A,
while I never got better than a C.

I do not blame the teachers or their methods- the failing was 
entirely my own.


----------



## Kagom

Hobbit said:
			
		

> I a global marketplace, knowing at least one foreign language is a virtue, as it smoothes relations with foreign clients.  Learning another language also helps to understand your own.  The problem is not that it's required, but when it's taught.  By high school, most people have firmly rooted themselves in their primary language.  However, younger brains are more...malleable in the ways of language.  If foreign languages were taught in elementary school, they could be taught faster and more thoroughly, and they would be more likely to retain that knowledge, with high school level courses being more like high school level English courses, concentrating on the subtleties of the language rather than basic syntax and vocabulary.


I agree wholeheartedly with you.  I know that I had a slightly easier time in French since I had taken a semester of it when I was in second grade (I just didn't continue French because the teacher was evil...I regret that decision).  I know that I'd be much more proficient at German had I begun to learn it at a younger age (but being from Vicksburg, Mississippi, it'd be too logical to offer more than Spanish and French) and if my current German teacher -was- any good at teaching.

Another reason I'd have loved to have more of something like that implemented in elementary schools are simply because I love languages.  I love learning them and I love speaking what I have learned.  I did when I was introduced to French when I was in second grade and I love the fluidity of some languages and just speaking them.


----------



## Chaya

Other countries require their students to learn English.  Now, I suppose you're going to think that I'm going to say, "so what's the point of Americans learning a foreign language?"  No, I'm not going to say that.  I think Americans should learn a foreign language and the earlier the better.  With more and more business being done cross-border, it would make a fantastic impression on someone in another country if the person hired to represent the company in their country could speak their language.  Why should it only be one way: that THEY have to speak English.  Another language can enrich a person's life.  My husband is a native French-speaker and I am so sorry I didn't pay attention to French while in high school.


----------



## Semper Fi

Chaya said:
			
		

> Other countries require their students to learn English.  Now, I suppose you're going to think that I'm going to say, "so what's the point of Americans learning a foreign language?"  No, I'm not going to say that.  I think Americans should learn a foreign language and the earlier the better.  With more and more business being done cross-border, it would make a fantastic impression on someone in another country if the person hired to represent the company in their country could speak their language.  Why should it only be one way: that THEY have to speak English.  Another language can enrich a person's life.  My husband is a native French-speaker and I am so sorry I didn't pay attention to French while in high school.



1. Other countries are required to teach English because other countries are required to teach English.  Seriously, a lot of people speak English, many as a second language, so learning English is vital for them.

2. It is great if some people want to learn languages, in fact I encourage it. But for the sake of the curriculum I'd say it shouldn't be required, that's a choice the students should make. 

3. Americans getting good jobs cross-border (at least I think you are getting at) just adds to the competitivness of our capitalism. I am on my second year of Spanish, and if it lands me a good job, more power to me. If I didn't take Spoanish in HS, oh well, I missed out. That's no reason to require it though.

4. Yes, foreign languages can enrich people's lives. Many testimonies claim that LSD can enrich lives as well, yet that substance is illegal. I think having a good family enriches my life, others prefer to be completely independant. Forcing kids to learn another language to "enrich their lives" is essentially herding them into a series of mannequins, who believe they are being enriched by forgein language.


----------



## seamouse

ok i stumbled upon this while researching for my middle school debate team but if legal or illegal immagrants come to our country and are forced to learn a language foreign to them shouldn't we learn it for those people who didn't bother or those who just came to america from <insert name of country here> to make it a shit load easier on everyone and it looks good towards an application to college so figure that i voted yes and im proud to have done so


----------



## grim

i say no because whats the point of learing a second languague its not like you are going to use anytime soon and hello this is an english speaking country we don't need a second language and not every one has a talent for it so SO SAY NO TO A SECOND LANGUAGE and what if illgeal immagrants cross the boarder they don"t know english so why would they have to learn a second language on top of english


----------



## grim

seamouse said:


> ok i stumbled upon this while researching for my middle school debate team but if legal or illegal immagrants come to our country and are forced to learn a language foreign to them shouldn't we learn it for those people who didn't bother or those who just came to america from <insert name of country here> to make it a shit load easier on everyone and it looks good towards an application to college so figure that i voted yes and im proud to have done so


 but the people that come here don't know english they would have to learn 2 foreign languges instaed of one


----------



## seamouse

grim said:


> seamouse said:
> 
> 
> 
> ok i stumbled upon this while researching for my middle school debate team but if legal or illegal immagrants come to our country and are forced to learn a language foreign to them shouldn't we learn it for those people who didn't bother or those who just came to america from <insert name of country here> to make it a shit load easier on everyone and it looks good towards an application to college so figure that i voted yes and im proud to have done so
> 
> 
> 
> but the people that come here don't know english they would heve to learn 2 foreien languges instaed of one
Click to expand...


yes but if they come here they can take english as one of there foreign languages such as we can with russian latin french spanish and the list goes on


----------



## Toro

Is Spanish foreign? 

Heck, English already is the global language.  Everyone is learning English so what's the point?


----------



## grim

seamouse said:


> grim said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> seamouse said:
> 
> 
> 
> ok i stumbled upon this while researching for my middle school debate team but if legal or illegal immagrants come to our country and are forced to learn a language foreign to them shouldn't we learn it for those people who didn't bother or those who just came to america from <insert name of country here> to make it a shit load easier on everyone and it looks good towards an application to college so figure that i voted yes and im proud to have done so
> 
> 
> 
> but the people that come here don't know english they would heve to learn 2 foreien languges instaed of one
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> yes but if they come here they can take english as one of there foreign languages such as we can with russian latin french spanish and the list goes on
Click to expand...


they would still have to take 2 second languge classes 1 for high school because they do not teach english and 2 an english class:


----------



## seamouse

Toro said:


> Is Spanish foreign?
> 
> Heck, English already is the global language.  Everyone is learning English so what's the point?



yes i would still say it is foreign but on the verg to being a gobal language but you make a good point


----------



## seamouse

grim said:


> seamouse said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> grim said:
> 
> 
> 
> but the people that come here don't know english they would heve to learn 2 foreien languges instaed of one
> 
> 
> 
> 
> yes but if they come here they can take english as one of there foreign languages such as we can with russian latin french spanish and the list goes on
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> they would still have to take 2 second languge classes 1 for high school because they do not teach english and 2 an english class:
Click to expand...


what do you mean


----------



## Againsheila

Chad2000k said:


> Should foreign language be a required class to graduate high school???   Its one of those things that older people say you need to succeed in the "job" world... If you think about it, have you guys ever taken such a course in high school?  I mean you could, but was it required at all to get into college or to either graduate and finally get out of high school.  Nowadays it seems they are pushing us (students) to the limits.  They make it required but for real, 99% of us forget about it and its just not worth takin in the first place because this is an english-speaking country, and the last time i checked i'll be going to an english speaking college which i'm willing to pay so much for just to get a degree and get a job.  What does everyone think???  Employers are more than welcome to reply....



I took French in highschool, Spanish in college and I am the better for it.  In truth, I think a 2nd language should be required in elementary school as it is in Canada, though I think they should be able to choose which language to learn, including American Sign Language.


----------



## BrianH

I had three years of Spanish (required).  Of Course, I live on the Texas coast.  

I think the problem stems from requiring a "certain" language.  For example, many schools I know require two to three years of a foreign language, however, many schools around my area only provide Spanish as a class.  I can see the benefits of Spanish because of our area, but I feel like more languages should be available should it be required.


----------



## KittenKoder

In order to compete globally (which we must to improve the economy ever) we need people who are multi-lingual or we will fail miserably.


----------



## LiveUninhibited

KittenKoder said:


> In order to compete globally (which we must to improve the economy ever) we need people who are multi-lingual or we will fail miserably.



So far they've adapted to us because we're the biggest consumers by far, but that may change eventually. Maybe if America's economy was based upon tourism we'd need to learn the language of the tourists.

I don't think 2-years, or even 4-years, of foreign language classes in high school is going to make enough of them competent enough to make it worth it. Most people who have taken 2 years of Spanish classes years ago do not speak Spanish well enough for it to be useful. You'd want to start with elementary age kids, and anybody who doesn't use it is going to lose it. Immersion in a culture that primarily speaks that language seems to be necessary.

I'm pretty neutral about it though. I'd still encourage people to take a foreign language since it has benefits beyond communicating with people of that language, but I'm not sure about making it mandatory. I look at it kind of like programming. Taking one C-basic class for my non-computing degrees did not make me a competent programmer by any stretch of the imagination, but it did improve my ability to solve problems and think.


----------



## KittenKoder

Actually, being the biggest consumers and having too little production is one of the problems, but meh, off topic.


----------



## LiveUninhibited

KittenKoder said:


> Actually, being the biggest consumers and having too little production is one of the problems, but meh, off topic.



I don't think it's off-topic. Whether knowing a foreign language is useful or not is dependent upon what kind of economy we have.  We are a post-industrial nation. I see that as specialization moreso than an evolutionary progression. Though part of my point was that requiring it in high school instead of earlier might not be cost-effective education. Note I edited my reply to add an analogy that explains why I'm still neutral.


----------



## Againsheila

LiveUninhibited said:


> KittenKoder said:
> 
> 
> 
> In order to compete globally (which we must to improve the economy ever) we need people who are multi-lingual or we will fail miserably.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So far they've adapted to us because we're the biggest consumers by far, but that may change eventually. Maybe if America's economy was based upon tourism we'd need to learn the language of the tourists.
> 
> I don't think 2-years, or even 4-years, of foreign language classes in high school is going to make enough of them competent enough to make it worth it. Most people who have taken 2 years of Spanish classes years ago do not speak Spanish well enough for it to be useful. You'd want to start with elementary age kids, and anybody who doesn't use it is going to lose it. Immersion in a culture that primarily speaks that language seems to be necessary.
> 
> I'm pretty neutral about it though. I'd still encourage people to take a foreign language since it has benefits beyond communicating with people of that language, but I'm not sure about making it mandatory. I look at it kind of like programming. Taking one C-basic class for my non-computing degrees did not make me a competent programmer by any stretch of the imagination,* but it did improve my ability to solve problems and think.*
Click to expand...


Exactly,  and learning another language in schools helps you learn more about our language.  For example, double negatives and never done in English, but they are done in Spanish all the time.  English is one of the most difficult languages to learn, in Japanese, a chicken is a chicken, not a hen or a rooster.  If it weren't for their 3 written languages, Japanese would be one of the easiest languages to learn.

Music should be taught in school also, no one should graduate high school without knowing a treble clef from a bass clef and how to read music.  That doesn't mean they all should be accomplished musicians.

There are just certain things we need for a well rounded education.  Of course, the emphasis should be on reading and learning where to go when they want to find something out.  Once they learn to read, they can learn anything.

I do however, think our schools should work at making our students bilingual in whatever language they choose.  My father used to say..."we have a word for people who speak 3 languages, we call them trilingual.  We have a word for people who speak two languages, we call them bilingual.  We have a word for people who speak one language, we call them Americans."

Personally, I'm tired of America's substandard educational system.


----------



## Epsilon Delta

I say: Of course. In fact, at one of my schools one was REQUIRED to take THREE languages, english, a 2nd one (Spanish or French) and a third (they offered like 12, I took Japanese) from 7th to 10th grade. And then in Costa Rica, English is a required course all through school as well (obviously alongside Spanish). 

The way I see it: Fuck, if GYM class is mandatory, you might as well stick a foreign language in there.


----------



## Epsilon Delta

Againsheila said:


> Exactly,  and learning another language in schools helps you learn more about our language.  For example, double negatives and never done in English, but they are done in Spanish all the time.  English is one of the most difficult languages to learn, in Japanese, a chicken is a chicken, not a hen or a rooster.  If it weren't for their 3 written languages, Japanese would be one of the easiest languages to learn.



Another awesome thing about Japanese: its a lot like Spanish in that vowels actually have standarized sounds!!! Oh my god!! Its so great! an "O" is always an "O" and an "A" is always an "A", and "E" is never an "I" or an "AY" or an "EE"- English is made ridiculously hard by the fact that any given letter in the alphabet has some 5 different ways it can sound. I mean "Enough"!? "OUGH" = "UF"?! What the HELL is that!? Oprah and Opera? Oupra and Auhhhpera? It's so annoying!


----------



## Againsheila

Epsilon Delta said:


> Againsheila said:
> 
> 
> 
> Exactly,  and learning another language in schools helps you learn more about our language.  For example, double negatives and never done in English, but they are done in Spanish all the time.  English is one of the most difficult languages to learn, in Japanese, a chicken is a chicken, not a hen or a rooster.  If it weren't for their 3 written languages, Japanese would be one of the easiest languages to learn.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Another awesome thing about Japanese: its a lot like Spanish in that vowels actually have standarized sounds!!! Oh my god!! Its so great! an "O" is always an "O" and an "A" is always an "A", and "E" is never an "I" or an "AY" or an "EE"- English is made ridiculously hard by the fact that any given letter in the alphabet has some 5 different ways it can sound. I mean "Enough"!? "OUGH" = "UF"?! What the HELL is that!? Oprah and Opera? Oupra and Auhhhpera? It's so annoying!
Click to expand...


I saw a comedienne once that said, you know that little word next to the word in the dictionary?  The phonetic spelling of the word?  That's how we should spell the word!


----------



## N4mddissent

Chad2000k said:


> Hobbit said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I a global marketplace, knowing at least one foreign language is a virtue, as it smoothes relations with foreign clients.  Learning another language also helps to understand your own.  The problem is not that it's required, but when it's taught.  By high school, most people have firmly rooted themselves in their primary language.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, on the contary although if you are working at an inner country job that doesnt require foreign language, then thats the whole point of not wasting a whole year or maybe two years when it could help us academically in another area.
> 
> 
> 
> Hobbit said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> However, younger brains are more...malleable in the ways of language.  If foreign languages were taught in elementary school, they could be taught faster and more thoroughly, and they would be more likely to retain that knowledge, with high school level courses being more like high school level English courses, concentrating on the subtleties of the language rather than basic syntax and vocabulary.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Thats true as well, but why prepare for something that may not happen in the future.  So its like preparing ourselves for a nuclear attack from anywhere, possibly al-quadea, in the end the u.s. government will stop and protect us and so its like a waste of time...
Click to expand...


But of course, it is not unusual for people to have no idea what they will be doing or will want to be doing before they graduate high school.  If they have a second language and never use it, perhaps it was a waste.  However, if they do not have a second language, it may result in lost opportunities.  Perhaps a job they never considered could appear but requires a second language (not unusual in a global marketplace).  Maybe speaking a second language leads them find the love of their life who happens to live elsewhere.  Maybe it allows them to read non-English websites and get early news that allows them to make wiser investments.  Maybe it saves their life on vacation or just helps them find that off the map place that makes the trip memorable.  

I think the risk of wasting 2 high school credits for foreign language is a net plus when weighing potential waste vs. potential opportunity.  And let's be a little more grounded.  Seriously, comparing 2 high school credits to preparing the entire nation for a nuclear attack by terrorists in terms of potential wasted effort?


----------



## editec

> *Should foreign language be a required to graduate high school? *




No.

It should be required to graduate from elementary school.

_THAT'S _where we should be teaching our kids foreign languages.

By the time kids are entering high school, they're forgetting how to speak their mother tongue and inventing their own language.


----------



## Epsilon Delta

Againsheila said:


> Epsilon Delta said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Againsheila said:
> 
> 
> 
> Exactly,  and learning another language in schools helps you learn more about our language.  For example, double negatives and never done in English, but they are done in Spanish all the time.  English is one of the most difficult languages to learn, in Japanese, a chicken is a chicken, not a hen or a rooster.  If it weren't for their 3 written languages, Japanese would be one of the easiest languages to learn.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Another awesome thing about Japanese: its a lot like Spanish in that vowels actually have standarized sounds!!! Oh my god!! Its so great! an "O" is always an "O" and an "A" is always an "A", and "E" is never an "I" or an "AY" or an "EE"- English is made ridiculously hard by the fact that any given letter in the alphabet has some 5 different ways it can sound. I mean "Enough"!? "OUGH" = "UF"?! What the HELL is that!? Oprah and Opera? Oupra and Auhhhpera? It's so annoying!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I saw a comedienne once that said, you know that little word next to the word in the dictionary?  The phonetic spelling of the word?  That's how we should spell the word!
Click to expand...


Hahaha, and he's totally right. Seriously... Cost but lost but Host or Coast? You take a vow but wield a bow? How cow now or low... dough? Why not DOW?!? Frustrating.

Ok, I'll shut it now.


----------



## Againsheila

editec said:


> *Should foreign language be a required to graduate high school? *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No.
> 
> It should be required to graduate from elementary school.
> 
> _THAT'S _where we should be teaching our kids foreign languages.
> 
> By the time kids are entering high school, they're forgetting how to speak their mother tongue and inventing their own language.
Click to expand...


Amen to that!


----------



## Againsheila

Epsilon Delta said:


> Againsheila said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Epsilon Delta said:
> 
> 
> 
> Another awesome thing about Japanese: its a lot like Spanish in that vowels actually have standarized sounds!!! Oh my god!! Its so great! an "O" is always an "O" and an "A" is always an "A", and "E" is never an "I" or an "AY" or an "EE"- English is made ridiculously hard by the fact that any given letter in the alphabet has some 5 different ways it can sound. I mean "Enough"!? "OUGH" = "UF"?! What the HELL is that!? Oprah and Opera? Oupra and Auhhhpera? It's so annoying!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I saw a comedienne once that said, you know that little word next to the word in the dictionary?  The phonetic spelling of the word?  That's how we should spell the word!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Hahaha, and he's totally right. Seriously... Cost but lost but Host or Coast? You take a vow but wield a bow? How cow now or low... dough? Why not DOW?!? Frustrating.
> 
> Ok, I'll shut it now.
Click to expand...


If the plural of goose is geese, why isn't the plural of moose, meese?  If the plural of mouse is mice, how come the plural of house isn't hice?

What, when where, why, who....where is the h sound in who?


----------



## elvis

If it WERE required, they should require at least four years.  Two years of foreign language does almost nothing.


----------



## Cecilie1200

Chad2000k said:


> Hobbit said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I a global marketplace, knowing at least one foreign language is a virtue, as it smoothes relations with foreign clients.  Learning another language also helps to understand your own.  The problem is not that it's required, but when it's taught.  By high school, most people have firmly rooted themselves in their primary language.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, on the contary although if you are working at an inner country job that doesnt require foreign language, then thats the whole point of not wasting a whole year or maybe two years when it could help us academically in another area.
> 
> 
> 
> Hobbit said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> However, younger brains are more...malleable in the ways of language.  If foreign languages were taught in elementary school, they could be taught faster and more thoroughly, and they would be more likely to retain that knowledge, with high school level courses being more like high school level English courses, concentrating on the subtleties of the language rather than basic syntax and vocabulary.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Thats true as well, but why prepare for something that may not happen in the future.  So its like preparing ourselves for a nuclear attack from anywhere, possibly al-quadea, in the end the u.s. government will stop and protect us and so its like a waste of time...
Click to expand...


For one thing, it's always a good idea not to limit your ability to communicate to just one group of people.  In this day and age, even in the US, you WILL encounter people with whom another language would be helpful.

Also, I have found that learning another language is actually quite helpful in increasing your ability with English, because it forces you to think about how language works and why.

Bottom line, it's easier to learn these things while you're still in high school, rather than trying to pick them up later as an adult.


----------



## Cecilie1200

Annie said:


> I think at least two years, preferably 4. At the same time, I will say that being deaf I have not been able to ever study a language to the point where I can speak it fluently. I have been able to read quite abit of both French and Spanish, so not a waste by any means.



One of the languages I learned in school - although it's not technically "foreign" - was ASL, and I've been grateful ever since.  It has made me extra-valuable both to employers and to grateful customers and co-workers.


----------



## Cecilie1200

Pale Rider said:


> No. It should be a choice, not a demand, even though I think it's a good idea to take a foriegn language.
> 
> If you're born in America, grow up in America, educated in America, and live and work your life in America, there shouldn't ever be a NEED for you to know a foriegn language.



Yes, because no one ever immigrates here, or anything.


----------



## Cecilie1200

no1tovote4 said:


> There are several reasons to require it, in my opinion.  Not the least of which is the fact that those who are bilingual or know even more languages are less likely to suffer severe depression as teens that causes so many of our young to commit suicide.
> 
> I have fun talking with my younguns in ASL (American Sign Language), but they never really caught on to Russian, I have high hopes for that later.
> 
> I would prefer language to be introduced much younger than in High School when many have already lost the real ability to absorb a language in full.



ASL was my husband's language requirement in college, and I learned it as a kid.  We talk to each other using it when we don't want the kids to follow the conversation, because they both learned to spell at a really early age.  Now they research ASL signs on the Internet to try to eavesdrop.

Funny story.  My husband and his then-fiancee were eating lunch in the Student Union of their college, and he propositioned her in sign language.  The guy at the next table got all shocked and upset and walked away.  That afternoon, they went to their first ASL class of the semester, and found out that he was their new professor.  Whoops!


----------



## editec

Rosetta Project is probably one of the world's most prolific publishers of books translated from English into other languages.

I think in 2008 we created, and published for free online reading, over 100 translated books.

I studied Spanish for five years and managed to finally at the end of five wasted years I got a gentleman's C in Spanish II.

Ironic isn't it?


----------



## Cecilie1200

editec said:


> Rosetta Project is probably one of the world's most prolific publishers of books translated from English into other languages.
> 
> I think in 2008 we created, and published for free online reading, over 100 translated books.
> 
> I studied Spanish for five years and managed to finally at the end of five wasted years I got a gentleman's C in Spanish II.
> 
> Ironic isn't it?



I'm afraid I missed the irony inherent in your inability to get good grades.


----------



## William Joyce

I'd require Latin.


----------



## seamouse

well.................i think i am a ninja!!!!  (|:|)


----------



## grim

seamouse said:


> well.................i think i am a ninja!!!!  (|:|)



wtf


----------



## BrianH

elvis3577 said:


> If it WERE required, they should require at least four years.  Two years of foreign language does almost nothing.



Agreed, but even four years will do nothing if you don't use it.  I had to take 6 years of Spanish between high school and college and I still can't speak it.   I could speak it fairly well during my college Spanish classes, but the minute you stop using it, it's gone.


----------



## mightypeon

That reminds me of an old East German Joke,

How can you tell the personality of a person from the foreign language he choose to learn first?

Easy, the Pessimist learned Russian, the Optimist learned English, the womenizer learned French and the smart guy learned Chinese.


----------



## Care4all

YES, ABSOLUTELY 

and it is already mandatory in most states, to have at least 2 years of a foreign language.

When i went to high school in Brooklyn, 4 years of a foreign language was required in order to graduate high school.

When i finished high school in new jersey, only 2 years was required there....and the selection of foreign languages was limited compared to the choices i had in New York.

The more education one has that makes them more rounded the better....especially in today's world, without borders financially, or in manufacturing and purchasing.

If i could do it over again, i would have taken Chinese, instead of Italian, and maybe even spanish....both of which could have helped me greatly in my career and could have moved me ahead quicker than what i was able to without...

Care


----------



## RetiredGySgt

We should teach our children spanish from 1st through 8th Grade along with english and in High School an additional language should be required for 2 years.

The reality is that in about 50 years this country is probably going to have a majority population that is Hispanic. We should be preparing for that.


----------



## Unkotare

Chad2000k said:


> Should foreign language be a required class to graduate high school???  ........




Yes. If for nothing else, for the beneficial effect it has on the brain.


----------



## Unkotare

RetiredGySgt said:


> We should teach our children spanish from 1st through 8th Grade......




Mandarin would make more sense.


----------



## Wyatt earp

Chad2000k said:


> Should foreign language be a required class to graduate high school???   Its one of those things that older people say you need to succeed in the "job" world... If you think about it, have you guys ever taken such a course in high school?  I mean you could, but was it required at all to get into college or to either graduate and finally get out of high school.  Nowadays it seems they are pushing us (students) to the limits.  They make it required but for real, 99% of us forget about it and its just not worth takin in the first place because this is an english-speaking country, and the last time i checked i'll be going to an english speaking college which i'm willing to pay so much for just to get a degree and get a job.  What does everyone think???  Employers are more than welcome to reply....



*Should foreign language be a required to graduate high school?*



Yes English must be required


----------



## Admiral Rockwell Tory

5stringJeff said:


> I say yes, every high school graduate should have at least one year of a foreign language.



Wow!  After one year of taking a foreign language, you might be able to count to 100 in the new language, order a couple of beers, and ask the way to the bathroom.  Not much else will be remembered or worthwhile.

I took two years of German in college and now speak more Spanish than German because that is all I hear!

I took Latin in high school and just had a rousing conversation in that language just the other day! NOT!


----------



## Admiral Rockwell Tory

The ClayTaurus said:


> Shattered said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Now now..  There's a couple words in a couple different languages that I'm GLAD I know.    I <i>*needed*</i> to know them a couple times.
> 
> But I still believe it should be elective in most cases...
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah... I took Spanish in high school, and hated it until one day, while I was working at the mall, two normal-looking women who spoke perfect english to me started talking in Spanish amongst themselves about the fake check they were going to pay with. They were quiet, but assumed the big white kid who had been bringing them shoes to try on couldn't speak Spanish. Turns out they were wrong
> 
> Learning a language opens doors, and *if they could replace trivial shit like phys-ed with foreign language*, I think it'd be a great idea.
Click to expand...


Spoken by someone who is likely 5 feet tall and 5 feet wide?


----------



## Admiral Rockwell Tory

The ClayTaurus said:


> Hobbit said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, I know that feeling.  I once heard two people behind talking about me in the student union.  About mid-conversation, I busted into their conversation with "That's just rude!"  The whole thing was in Mandarin Chinese.  Bet they never saw _that_ coming.
> 
> 
> 
> Where did you learn mandarin?
Click to expand...


He just ate a lot of oranges and it suddenly came to him!


----------



## Admiral Rockwell Tory

Annie said:


> no1tovote4 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There are several reasons to require it, in my opinion.  Not the least of which is the fact that those who are bilingual or know even more languages are less likely to suffer severe depression as teens that causes so many of our young to commit suicide.
> 
> I have fun talking with my younguns in ASL (American Sign Language), but they never really caught on to Russian, I have high hopes for that later.
> 
> I would prefer language to be introduced much younger than in High School when many have already lost the real ability to absorb a language in full.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yep we are lucky at our school, Spanish begins in kindergarten. I wish though that instead it was Latin, the kids would still pick up Spanish, but also easily Italian, French and even Greece.
Click to expand...


How do you pick up an entire country?


----------



## Cecilie1200

Admiral Rockwell Tory said:


> Annie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> no1tovote4 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There are several reasons to require it, in my opinion.  Not the least of which is the fact that those who are bilingual or know even more languages are less likely to suffer severe depression as teens that causes so many of our young to commit suicide.
> 
> I have fun talking with my younguns in ASL (American Sign Language), but they never really caught on to Russian, I have high hopes for that later.
> 
> I would prefer language to be introduced much younger than in High School when many have already lost the real ability to absorb a language in full.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yep we are lucky at our school, Spanish begins in kindergarten. I wish though that instead it was Latin, the kids would still pick up Spanish, but also easily Italian, French and even Greece.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> How do you pick up an entire country?
Click to expand...


According to Archimedes, with a reeeeeeally long lever.


----------



## Polishprince

Chad2000k said:


> Should foreign language be a required class to graduate high school???   Its one of those things that older people say you need to succeed in the "job" world... If you think about it, have you guys ever taken such a course in high school?  I mean you could, but was it required at all to get into college or to either graduate and finally get out of high school.  Nowadays it seems they are pushing us (students) to the limits.  They make it required but for real, 99% of us forget about it and its just not worth takin in the first place because this is an english-speaking country, and the last time i checked i'll be going to an english speaking college which i'm willing to pay so much for just to get a degree and get a job.  What does everyone think???  Employers are more than welcome to reply....



At my school,  it was required back in the day.  All of the students had to take Latin.   

Language does help students read state mottoes as well as mottoes used by colleges as well as cigarette companies.  A lot of our phrases used even today come from Latin.

If time travel is ever perfected and I get sent back to antiquity, I will be set.

I personally think it was time well spent.


----------

