# Caliber vs Shot placement



## Mr. P (Oct 22, 2006)

Is caliber or shot placement more important?
I am taking of pistols for personal and home protection.

My opinion is shot placement is more important. You can have a canon but if you cant hit the target, its no more than a noise maker.

What do you think?


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## CSM (Oct 25, 2006)

Hmmm...IMO, both are important. A small round that hits exactly where it needs to but has no penetration is as useless as a large round that misses.

Shooting a grizzly bear with a BB gun comes to mind!

Obviously, there are a lot of factors involved beyond caliber and shot placement.  Things like training, experience, and so on alll have an impact.


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## Mr. P (Oct 25, 2006)

CSM said:


> Hmmm...IMO, both are important. A small round that hits exactly where it needs to but has no penetration is as useless as a large round that misses.
> 
> Shooting a grizzly bear with a BB gun comes to mind!
> 
> Obviously, there are a lot of factors involved beyond caliber and shot placement.  Things like training, experience, and so on alll have an impact.



Oh I agree 100%. Its difficult to discuss one without considering all other factors. Another consideration would be ammunition type and load.

Assuming you can hit the target with a well placed shot, what caliber would you choose .38, 9mm, .357, .40, .45, 10mm. and why?


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## CSM (Oct 25, 2006)

Mr. P said:


> Oh I agree 100%. Its difficult to discuss one without considering all other factors. Another consideration would be ammunition type and load.
> 
> Assuming you can hit the target with a well placed shot, what caliber would you choose .38, 9mm, .357, .40, .45, 10mm. and why?



I would go with either the .357 or the .45.  Lots of technical reasons but mostly because of the kinetic energy at the point of impact, ease of use (for me, they are somewhat easier to shoot), availability of ammo, etc.  The .38 is a bit light, which is why a lot of law enforcement institutions and the US military have largely abandoned it. 9mm is ok I guess but a bit light still...usually has more rounds available though. I do not find that to be an advantage in personal or home defense; that scenario is more likely to involve one or two shots (at most). Combat scenarios are a different story and the 9 is a compromise between number of rounds and effectiveness. Outside of that I think you are getting into "personal preference" areas. Being an old Army sorta guy, I like the .45 the best.


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## 90K (Oct 25, 2006)

Power and placement are indeed important factors in this discussion. 
for me a 12 gauge is the weapon of choice for interior home security due to tight quarters. You'll get a pellet in the ass if you come around my house un-invited in the middle of oh-dark-thirty!:firing:  but for more distant security then placement is the key and a 12 gauge doesn't achieve that IMO I can make a grease spot in the upper torso.  But I don't shoot to disable I shoot to kill.


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## Mr. P (Oct 25, 2006)

CSM said:


> I would go with either the .357 or the .45.  Lots of technical reasons but mostly because of the kinetic energy at the point of impact, ease of use (for me, they are somewhat easier to shoot), availability of ammo, etc.  The .38 is a bit light, which is why a lot of law enforcement institutions and the US military have largely abandoned it. 9mm is ok I guess but a bit light still...usually has more rounds available though. I do not find that to be an advantage in personal or home defense; that scenario is more likely to involve one or two shots (at most). Combat scenarios are a different story and the 9 is a compromise between number of rounds and effectiveness. Outside of that I think you are getting into "personal preference" areas. Being an old Army sorta guy, I like the .45 the best.



I hear and read so many opinions that .40, .45 or even 10mm is the best, but Ive read test result that concluded the 9mm is just as effective penetration wise as the .45 when loaded with the proper JHP. Im satisfied the 9mm would be adequate. Easier to control and the ammunition cost for 9mm is cheaper than .45. Unless one has deep pockets cost is a significant factor if you are going to practice like you should. Just my opinion of course, it really does come down to personal preference at some point.

I have a S&W .357 revolver now and will keep it but I'm looking to purchase a  semi-auto. 

PS. During my active duty days pilots were issued .38 revolvers, better than nothing but where's my gun? LOL


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## CSM (Oct 25, 2006)

Mr. P said:


> I hear and read so many opinions that .40, .45 or even 10mm is the best, but Ive read test result that concluded the 9mm is just as effective penetration wise as the .45 when loaded with the proper JHP. Im satisfied the 9mm would be adequate. Easier to control and the ammunition cost for 9mm is cheaper than .45. Unless one has deep pockets cost is a significant factor if you are going to practice like you should. Just my opinion of course, it really does come down to personal preference at some point.
> 
> I have a S&W .357 revolver now and will keep it but I'm looking to purchase a  semi-auto.
> 
> PS. During my active duty days pilots were issued .38 revolvers, better than nothing but where's my gun? LOL



Ah, the never ending debate regarding the merits of the 9mm vs. the .45 cal!
Interestingly, that debate is ongoing with the troops in the sandbox right now and the troops seem to want the .45; of course, most of the troops don't carry sidearms so it is a relatively small debating society.

You are correct about cost....what is your life worth...kidding but not!


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## Mr. P (Oct 25, 2006)

90K said:


> Power and placement are indeed important factors in this discussion.
> for me a 12 gauge is the weapon of choice for interior home security due to tight quarters. You'll get a pellet in the ass if you come around my house un-invited in the middle of oh-dark-thirty!:firing:  but for more distant security then placement is the key and a 12 gauge doesn't achieve that IMO I can make a grease spot in the upper torso.  But I don't shoot to disable I shoot to kill.



I would too. That reminds me, I went into a convenience store in a rural area one day. The guy behind the counter was wearing a hat that said I dont call 911. I couldnt figure that out until he turned slightly and exposed the pistol on his belt. I think he felt the same way.


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## CSM (Oct 25, 2006)

90K said:


> Power and placement are indeed important factors in this discussion.
> for me a 12 gauge is the weapon of choice for interior home security due to tight quarters. You'll get a pellet in the ass if you come around my house un-invited in the middle of oh-dark-thirty!:firing:  but for more distant security then placement is the key and a 12 gauge doesn't achieve that IMO I can make a grease spot in the upper torso.  But I don't shoot to disable I shoot to kill.



"Aim for center of mass!" 

Shotgun is of course effective, but some folks don't want to be patching all them pellet holes in their walls.  Most folks don't know how to use a long gun at close quarters and they are hard to tuck under your pillow...heh.


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## Mr. P (Oct 25, 2006)

CSM said:


> Ah, the never ending debate regarding the merits of the 9mm vs. the .45 cal!
> Interestingly, that debate is ongoing with the troops in the sandbox right now and the troops seem to want the .45; of course, most of the troops don't carry sidearms so it is a relatively small debating society.
> 
> You are correct about cost....what is your life worth...kidding but not!



I wouldnt poo-poo the .45. I just think the 9 fits my needs better. Its accurate, effective and cheaper. It comes down to practice which = shot placement. If I cant afford the round to become proficient a miss with a .45 is a miss.

What type round are they using, do you know? If its standard military I can see why they might want the .45 over there. They have 9s now right?


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## Mr. P (Oct 25, 2006)

CSM, did you ever learn a point and shoot method with a pistol? I learned it with the M-16 and understand there is a technique for a pistol.


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## CSM (Oct 25, 2006)

Mr. P said:


> CSM, did you ever learn a point and shoot method with a pistol? I learned it with the M-16 and understand there is a technique for a pistol.



There is...I will try to find the basics for you.  

Truth be told, the 9mm I had was a piece of crap...could not hit didldy with it...got my own .45 and carried that instead.  It really soured me on the 9mm but I later found out that the barrel was bent (stupid staff officers anyway!) just ever so slightly when it was issued to me; the armorer knew it too but figured a CSM was never going to fire a weapon, go to the range for practice, much less actually use his handgun in combat (dumbass E-4s anyway!). I have subsequently fired a few 9mm and they functioned just fine.

You are of course correct in your assessment. I have stated in these forums before that, in the right hands, a .22 cal can be just as effective as any other caliber you want to choose... it's all a trade off and you have to choose that what fits your needs and constraints the best.


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## 90K (Oct 25, 2006)

CSM said:


> "Aim for center of mass!"
> 
> Shotgun is of course effective, but some folks don't want to be patching all them pellet holes in their walls.  Most folks don't know how to use a long gun at close quarters and they are hard to tuck under your pillow...heh.



Having a nice sawed off pump is good and yes home improvement could be a good thing


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## CSM (Oct 25, 2006)

Mr. P said:


> CSM, did you ever learn a point and shoot method with a pistol? I learned it with the M-16 and understand there is a technique for a pistol.



Here are a few links for ya:

http://www.pointshooting.com/

http://www.spw-duf.info/point.html


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## Mr. P (Oct 25, 2006)

CSM said:


> There is...I will try to find the basics for you.
> 
> Truth be told, the 9mm I had was a piece of crap...could not hit didldy with it...got my own .45 and carried that instead.  It really soured me on the 9mm but I later found out that the barrel was bent (stupid staff officers anyway!) just ever so slightly when it was issued to me; the armorer knew it too but figured a CSM was never going to fire a weapon, go to the range for practice, much less actually use his handgun in combat (dumbass E-4s anyway!). I have subsequently fired a few 9mm and they functioned just fine.
> 
> You are of course correct in your assessment. I have stated in these forums before that, in the right hands, a .22 cal can be just as effective as any other caliber you want to choose... it's all a trade off and you have to choose that what fits your needs and constraints the best.



Thanks! I'd like to learn that technique.
Geeezzzzzz I can't believe an armorer would even think of issueing a defective weapon...wait, ya I can.


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## Mr. P (Oct 25, 2006)

CSM said:


> Here are a few links for ya:
> 
> http://www.pointshooting.com/
> 
> http://www.spw-duf.info/point.html



Thanks!


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## Mr. P (Oct 25, 2006)

CSM said:


> Here are a few links for ya:
> 
> http://www.pointshooting.com/
> 
> http://www.spw-duf.info/point.html



Lots of great info on the two sites! Thanks again. 

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to CSM again.


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## Gunny (Oct 28, 2006)

Mr. P said:


> Oh I agree 100%. Its difficult to discuss one without considering all other factors. Another consideration would be ammunition type and load.
> 
> Assuming you can hit the target with a well placed shot, what caliber would you choose .38, 9mm, .357, .40, .45, 10mm. and why?



Depends on the application.  If you live in an apt, a .38+P is about all you want unless capping the next door neighbor is part of the plan.  That would be the "why" to having a lighter load in that setting.

No holds barred I'm going with a 195 grain Winchester Silvertip jacketed hollowpoint in .45 ACP.  At full expansion it comes in just under an inch, and at rougly 1000 fps, it's going to hit like a baseball bat.  

IMO, too much energy is lost with a smaller caiber at 1300 or so fps.  

Second choice would be a .357 magnum (like the one I have ).  It's possibly the most versatile handgun caliber out there.


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## CrimsonWhite (Dec 8, 2006)

GunnyL said:


> Depends on the application.  If you live in an apt, a .38+P is about all you want unless capping the next door neighbor is part of the plan.  That would be the "why" to having a lighter load in that setting.
> 
> No holds barred I'm going with a 195 grain Winchester Silvertip jacketed hollowpoint in .45 ACP.  At full expansion it comes in just under an inch, and at rougly 1000 fps, it's going to hit like a baseball bat.
> 
> ...



Caliber really doesn't matter anymore. Glazer Safety Slugs are about the only personal defense ammo I use. The round is frangible and doesn't allow for collateral damage. As for duty rounds(I'm a reserve Deputy), Speer Gold Hollow points is the only way to go. 

Shot placement and caliber go hand in hand. You can be the best pistol shooter in the world and a .25 ACP still might not get the job done. Don't let James Bond and his 7.65 mm fool you. Don't trust your life to anything less than a .38+P. In today's world an assailant could be hopped up on any number of super drugs. Small calibers just don't do the trick because head shots are difficult for experienced shooters, much less those that only shoot occasionally. As Gunny pointed out, .45 ACP is excellent when loaded in a big cup hollow point such as Winchester Silver tips or Speer Gold Dots. Higher pressure big bore loads are much better foot-pounds of energy on impact into the chest of a doped up assailant. Just another opinion.


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## Gunny (Dec 10, 2006)

onthefence said:


> Caliber really doesn't matter anymore. Glazer Safety Slugs are about the only personal defense ammo I use. The round is frangible and doesn't allow for collateral damage. As for duty rounds(I'm a reserve Deputy), Speer Gold Hollow points is the only way to go.
> 
> Shot placement and caliber go hand in hand. You can be the best pistol shooter in the world and a .25 ACP still might not get the job done. Don't let James Bond and his 7.65 mm fool you. Don't trust your life to anything less than a .38+P. In today's world an assailant could be hopped up on any number of super drugs. Small calibers just don't do the trick because head shots are difficult for experienced shooters, much less those that only shoot occasionally. As Gunny pointed out, .45 ACP is excellent when loaded in a big cup hollow point such as Winchester Silver tips or Speer Gold Dots. Higher pressure big bore loads are much better foot-pounds of energy on impact into the chest of a doped up assailant. Just another opinion.



I agree and disagree.  If I hit you in the hip with a .45 ACP Silvertip, it's going to spin you around at least so I can get another shot.  A .22/.25 might not even slow you down.  IMO, you have a greater margin for error with a larger caliber.  But in the end, you DO have to drop your target.

I never have cared for Glazers.  Too many possible limitations to its use.  for instance, if you have to fire through your pocket, you're SOL.  And I really don't put it past home invaders to be wearing body armor.  In their place, I would.


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## Mr. P (Dec 10, 2006)

GunnyL said:


> I agree and disagree.  If I hit you in the hip with a .45 ACP Silvertip, it's going to spin you around at least so I can get another shot.  A .22/.25 might not even slow you down.  IMO, you have a greater margin for error with a larger caliber.  But in the end, you DO have to drop your target.
> 
> I never have cared for Glazers.  Too many possible limitations to its use.  for instance, if you have to fire through your pocket, you're SOL. * And I really don't put it past home invaders to be wearing body armor. * In their place, I would.



But, but, that's illegal.


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## Gunny (Dec 10, 2006)

Mr. P said:


> But, but, that's illegal.



So's coming through my door without a pass, all of which I will do my best to render moot with a few, well-placed rounds.:2guns:


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## Mr. P (Dec 10, 2006)

GunnyL said:


> So's coming through my door without a pass, all of which I will do my best to render moot with a few, well-placed rounds.:2guns:


   
 I know, Gunny. That was the point really.


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## Ninja (Dec 30, 2006)

Newbie here, so I'll try not to step on any toes.

I'd rather hit a badguy on the pinkie with a .22 than miss him completely with a .50 BMG.

--snowman


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## Shooter1/1 (Sep 5, 2008)

so this is intresting to me, I have had this debate with students and other instructors on ranges from Moyock to Al, Hillah and I will give the same answer,
" if we are talking about handguns used by common shooters for self defense then the caliber best used is the caliber that you can put where you want it to go." you see no one is going to, in there right mind, defend themself with a .22ratshot however we can start this discussion somwhere around 9mm and up through the .357 one might say that the 40 would be a good tweener round but this fails to adress the massive chamber preasure and felt recoil you might not find in a 45. so to my students I now say, "find the round and pistol that you can hit the target with, hit that taget manytimes and as your taget becomes smaller and farther away and you are still hitting it you have found the right round for you. now shot placement under stress is the next class.


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## CrimsonWhite (Sep 7, 2008)

Gunny said:


> I agree and disagree.  If I hit you in the hip with a .45 ACP Silvertip, it's going to spin you around at least so I can get another shot.  A .22/.25 might not even slow you down.  IMO, you have a greater margin for error with a larger caliber.  But in the end, you DO have to drop your target.
> 
> I never have cared for Glazers.  Too many possible limitations to its use.  for instance, if you have to fire through your pocket, you're SOL.  And I really don't put it past home invaders to be wearing body armor.  In their place, I would.



Like I said, "You can be the best pistol shooter in the world and a .25 ACP still might not get the job done." I'm a huge advocate of big rounds, ie. .357 mag, .40 S&W, .45 ACP, .357 sig. I only use glazers in my home due to children. I don't want penetration through walls. Its a risk I'm willing to take. Anywhere else it's Speer Gold Dots. I like Silvertips, but they are hard to come by.


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## Shooter1/1 (Sep 8, 2008)

I am not sure that Glazers are always the way to go. you have to take into account what you are shooting and what you are shooting at. not all pistols feed the Glazer well, just as some have poor ramp angles for hollow points. Body armor or a well placed phone book will stop the round and there for I am not 100% sold on it. I am wondering if the Air Martials are still giving the Glazers to agents on plains as that was it's first intended use. a better solution might be something on the order of a Ranger XST. it has less over-pen issues and dose a great job thwacking bad guys. All that being said, there is this great spot that you can aim, and if you are well trained with ANY arm it will produce results every time... it's called the face! from the upper lip to the eye-brow ridge. you hit the intruder or offender in that magic area and it will produce desired results on target. A great way to train to this standard is to put a 3X5 note card on your target backer and keep your rounds in that space. unless the bad guy is wearing a level III mask you will get the job done. and Mr. P, you can train to point shoot for the head, takes a lot of work, and ammo. 

CSM, sorry to hear about the bent 9mm, damn armorers!


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## CrimsonWhite (Sep 9, 2008)

Shooter1/1 said:


> I am not sure that Glazers are always the way to go. you have to take into account what you are shooting and what you are shooting at. not all pistols feed the Glazer well, just as some have poor ramp angles for hollow points. Body armor or a well placed phone book will stop the round and there for I am not 100% sold on it. I am wondering if the Air Martials are still giving the Glazers to agents on plains as that was it's first intended use. a better solution might be something on the order of a Ranger XST. it has less over-pen issues and dose a great job thwacking bad guys. All that being said, there is this great spot that you can aim, and if you are well trained with ANY arm it will produce results every time... it's called the face! from the upper lip to the eye-brow ridge. you hit the intruder or offender in that magic area and it will produce desired results on target. A great way to train to this standard is to put a 3X5 note card on your target backer and keep your rounds in that space. unless the bad guy is wearing a level III mask you will get the job done. and Mr. P, you can train to point shoot for the head, takes a lot of work, and ammo.
> 
> CSM, sorry to hear about the bent 9mm, damn armorers!



Pelvis is a better target. Bigger, less likely to be armored, and if the subject can't walk, they can't advance. Rangers are actually teaching this now as a variation of the Mozambique method.

As for Glazers, like I said, kids in the house, penetration through walls is a concern. I'm confident enough with a weapon to make shots count. I'd rather take a round than shoot my kids. I'll take my chances.


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## Ninja (Sep 9, 2008)

Maybe this is a California thing, but I hear all types of nonsense on this subject  at gun shops.

A while back on of the local FFLs was trying to sell me a Walther P22. 

"I don't know man, some of my friends have had cycling issues with theirs, plus I'm not sure .22's a viable home defense round."

"What? .22's the BEST home defense round! You can just sit back and shoot burglars in the eye all day."


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## CrimsonWhite (Sep 9, 2008)

Ninja said:


> Maybe this is a California thing, but I hear all types of nonsense on this subject  at gun shops.
> 
> A while back on of the local FFLs was trying to sell me a Walther P22.
> 
> ...



You're shitting me right?


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## Ninja (Sep 9, 2008)

onthefence said:


> You're shitting me right?



Dead serious. I wouldn't go near the shop except that they have the best powder prices in town.


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## CrimsonWhite (Sep 9, 2008)

Ninja said:


> Dead serious. I wouldn't go near the shop except that they have the best powder prices in town.



Their FFL should be revoked. Bullshitting is one thing, but that i fuckin' retarded.


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## Ninja (Sep 9, 2008)

I think it's a California thing. Gun shops around here seem to be the main source for disinformation within the gun community.


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## CrimsonWhite (Sep 9, 2008)

Ninja said:


> I think it's a California thing. Gun shops around here seem to be the main source for disinformation within the gun community.



must be


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## RetiredGySgt (Sep 9, 2008)

I have a 9 mm. I prefer it as I shot it all that time in the Marine Corps. I prefer more rounds and the 9 will stop most people. And if it does not you have 13 more to pump in to their ass after the first 2. Had a .45, wanted to love it, just couldn't. My first hand gun was a .357 Magnum revolver Single action at that ). And I had a 30 carbine single action as well , went well with my M1 Carbine, same round and all.

Had a shot gun, never got into them either, but they are good for close work. When I had it I loaded it with alternating slug/double 00.

I currently have 3 weapons. M1 Garand 30.06 with around 600 rounds of ammo, 19 clips. M1 Carbine 1100 rounds 2 30 round mags 4 15 round mags and a couple 10's and 5's. And my 9mm but almost no ammo for it. Mags are bad on it also. I got sick and left them loaded once for a very long time. ( paranoia will do that)

Haven't fired in at least 2 maybe 3 years and I am fat out of shape and sickly, Doctor likes me not playing but I really should lose some weight, get some stamina and shot some.


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## Shooter1/1 (Sep 9, 2008)

yeah the pelvic area is a good shot for two reasons. first it sets you up for a crown shot and two they are not advancing and are most likely going to blead out. a lot of the SOF community as well as LE and Feds are teaching it. this is not a new idea though, Jeff Cooper was a big proponent of the "Pelvic girddle" shot. It seems nothing is new in the gun fighting world just old ideas made new. I notice not too many people have brought up the carbine as a home defense tool. the other thing we seem to have left out is the impact of a good light source and how it can affect shot placement in low light situations.


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