# Baseball is dying



## Votto (Jun 18, 2018)

MLB Attendance Drops to Lowest Average In 15 Years 

Baseball has the lowest attendance in over 15 years. 

Why? 

As the article speculates, it is probably a combination of factors. Never in the history of baseball have so many teams been on track to lose a 100 games. We have teams from day one no one takes seriously. You are then left with watching the really good teams play there horrible teams, or worse, you have two really bad teams play that no one cares about. Never before in the history of baseball has there been such a payroll discrepancy. You have your rich teams and poor teams. How can a team like the Devil Rays compete with a team like the Yankees when the Yankees spend more money on their bull pen than the Rays spend on their entire team? 

It's just not working and people know it. The movie "Moneyball" is a good movie to watch to understand this issue, which was created by the baseball unions since the last strike. 

Other factors, the game is too boring for fans today and weather probably also have an effect, as well as rising admission rates and concession prices. 

So there is it, the best sport ever created and it is dying. I reckon nothing lasts forever.


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## mdk (Jun 18, 2018)

Spend Nutting 
Win Nutting


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## Lewdog (Jun 18, 2018)

It's because small market teams have very little chance to compete on a year by year basis with teams in cities like New York and Los Angeles.  There is very little parody in baseball, like there is in the NBA and NFL where draft picks can make such a huge impact in a short period of time, compared to MLB where free agency is much more important.  Generally draft picks in MLB take several years to get to the majors, and that's if they ever do.


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## rightwinger (Jun 18, 2018)

Many teams are following the Houston, KC, Miami model where you lose 100 games a year for 4-5 years. You dump all your high cost players and stock up on quality minor leaguers and first round draft choices

Yankees and Dodgers have not won in recent years
Crap teams in small markets have


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## Votto (Jun 18, 2018)

Lewdog said:


> It's because small market teams have very little chance to compete on a year by year basis with teams in cities like New York and Los Angeles.  There is very little parody in baseball, like there is in the NBA and NFL where draft picks can make such a huge impact in a short period of time, compared to MLB where free agency is much more important.  Generally draft picks in MLB take several years to get to the majors, and that's if they ever do.



Spot on!

How many years will we have to endure watching the Yankees take on the Red Sox in the playoffs?

It just gets old.

If you take the teams by payroll in order, and split them down the middle, you will find that the upper half have winning teams with only a few that don't.

Conversely, if you take the lower half and split them down the middle you have the inverse result, most have losing records except a few that don't

Essentially you can buy yourself a winning season but the playoffs are much harder to predict.


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## Votto (Jun 18, 2018)

rightwinger said:


> Many teams are following the Houston, KC, Miami model where you lose 100 games a year for 4-5 years. You dump all your high cost players and stock up on quality minor leaguers and first round draft choices
> 
> Yankees and Dodgers have not won in recent years
> Crap teams in small markets have



Over the last 20 years, add up the small market teams and big market teams that have won a world series.

I dare ya!

Every time the Yankees don't make the playoffs, it is a big scandal.

I wonder why.

Conversely, if my Reds make the playoffs that become a big scandal.


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## Rocko (Jun 18, 2018)

Baseball lost me 20 years ago. I stopped tuning in after the Sosa McGwire historic hr race. When I was younger I liked it, but I lost interest. I only watch basketball, football, and fighting now.


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## Lewdog (Jun 18, 2018)

Votto said:


> rightwinger said:
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> > Many teams are following the Houston, KC, Miami model where you lose 100 games a year for 4-5 years. You dump all your high cost players and stock up on quality minor leaguers and first round draft choices
> ...



I've been a huge Reds fan since I can even remember watching baseball, and the fact is, they may have a winning team every 5 years or so, and then it goes into rebuilding mode all over again.  Even when they have their own homegrown talent, once they reach arbitration and free agency, the Reds can no longer afford to keep all the pieces together.  They had to decide between Cueto or Homer, they couldn't keep both.  They kept Homer and his health has killed them.  Cozart finally put together a good bat with a good glove and he priced himself out of the city.  The same things will happen with Winker in a few years, and with Scooter after this year. 

When Castellini bought the Reds he said he would put more money into the team to make sure they would compete.  He hasn't and they haven't had a winning season since 2013.


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## Manonthestreet (Jun 18, 2018)

What did they think was going to happen when you build their stadium and then they triple ticket prices?
Couple that with fact we used to produce rookie of the yrs....batting champions hr champions.....and such...haven't done that in awhile. New players take forever to reach the big leaques as they wait for current crop of losers to mature which rarely happens.


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## Votto (Jun 18, 2018)

Lewdog said:


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The Reds are partially to blame for their plight.  They CHOSE to adopt a small market mentality even though they have 4 states to draw from, which are Kentucky, Indiana, Ohio, and West Virginia.  The Big Red Machine produced a nation of Reds fans but they pissed it all down the drain and now no one cares.   You can't even get the Reds on radio in many places in Ohio now.

Arguably, they even fell short with the Big Red Machine by only winning two World Series.  With all that talent, they should have won more.

Having said that, the issue is still payroll in baseball even if the Reds fixed their situation.  A quick fix would be to arrange all the divisions according to payroll rather than geographical location.   A better fix would be to make it like the NFL and force teams to be on a more even playing field in regards to payroll, but the unions will never go for it.

The last strike essentially have players everything they wanted.  They can make as much as they want and play for anyone they want.  Now if you are good enough, you can become a Yankee.

Everyone is happy.  The fans of big market teams are happy, the media is happy as more tune in to watch the Big Market teams during the playoffs, and the owners could care less.  Everyone is happy and making money hand over fist EXCEPT the fans of small market teams.


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## HereWeGoAgain (Jun 18, 2018)

Votto said:


> MLB Attendance Drops to Lowest Average In 15 Years
> 
> Baseball has the lowest attendance in over 15 years.
> 
> ...



   The Astros are doing fine with a small payroll compared to the Yankees.


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## Lewdog (Jun 18, 2018)

Votto said:


> Lewdog said:
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All baseball did to try and put parody back in the game was to give extra draft picks to small market teams, and put a "payroll tax" in place.  The payroll tax is a joke however.  When the Yankees charge an arm and a leg for a ticket, they can easily afford to pay whatever contract they want, plus the tax on top of it.

So the issue becomes, would you rather be able to see a Reds' game for a $15 ticket, $6 beer, and $2 hot dog and watch a mediocre team, or pay $100 per ticket, $10 for a beer, and $5 for a hot dog to watch a winning team?


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## Lewdog (Jun 18, 2018)

HereWeGoAgain said:


> Votto said:
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The Astros are still 12th in MLB payroll only $11 million behind the Yankees.

The Red Sox however have a $240 MILLION payroll, compared to the White Sox who are at $78 million.

MLB 2018  Payroll Tracker


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## Weatherman2020 (Jun 18, 2018)

Votto said:


> MLB Attendance Drops to Lowest Average In 15 Years
> 
> Baseball has the lowest attendance in over 15 years.
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> ...


I think it’s the cost. In 1980 my Angels season tickets behind home plate up next to the press box was $2 a seat. Today you’re looking at $150 for a family of 4 to see a game from nose bleed centerfield. 

Corporations have bought most of the seats today, little guy can’t compete.


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## Desperado (Jun 18, 2018)

Votto said:


> Baseball has the lowest attendance in over 15 years.
> Why?


Times have changed. Baseball is way to slow
The need to put a clock on the pitcher and set a time limit between pitches.
Plus there are way too many games in a season rendering most of them un-impotant


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## rightwinger (Jun 18, 2018)

Votto said:


> rightwinger said:
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> > Many teams are following the Houston, KC, Miami model where you lose 100 games a year for 4-5 years. You dump all your high cost players and stock up on quality minor leaguers and first round draft choices
> ...



Reds had a good playoff team up until four years ago. They sold out their stars and are going on the cheap model

Yankees and Dodgers have the highest payroll and make the playoffs
Not many championships in the last decade


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## IsaacNewton (Jun 18, 2018)

Votto said:


> MLB Attendance Drops to Lowest Average In 15 Years
> 
> Baseball has the lowest attendance in over 15 years.
> 
> ...









MLB league revenue 2001-2017 | Statistic

$9.6 billion in 2017



They're being crushed by the weight of all that money!


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## HereWeGoAgain (Jun 18, 2018)

Lewdog said:


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 Nope.....
Sox payroll..240,013,118
Astros payroll..163,300,474


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## Flash (Jun 18, 2018)

Professional baseball became dead to me when MLB sent a team to kiss Obama and Castro's commie asses.


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## Lewdog (Jun 18, 2018)

HereWeGoAgain said:


> Lewdog said:
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I didn't compare the Red Sox payroll to the Astros.  I compared them to the Yankees like YOU did.

I compared the Red Sox (highest) with the White Sox (lowest).


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## Lewdog (Jun 18, 2018)

Flash said:


> Professional baseball became dead to me when MLB sent a team to kiss Obama and Castro's commie asses.



Pfft you quit watching baseball when Curt Flood beat MLB forcing free agency and getting rid of contract slavery.


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## rightwinger (Jun 18, 2018)

_While rain and unusually cold weather plagued the first half of the season and has been the cause of nearly 36 postponements to date, MLB commissioner Rob Manfred said that the league is “concerned that there’s something to [low attendance rates] more than weather.”_

Lets have the season play out before we declare baseball dead


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## HereWeGoAgain (Jun 18, 2018)

Lewdog said:


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I'm just comparing top payrolls.


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## Lewdog (Jun 18, 2018)

HereWeGoAgain said:


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This is EXACTLY what you said:

"The Astros are doing fine with a small payroll compared to the Yankees."

The Astros payroll isn't small compared to the Yankees.  It is only $11 million less, which is basically one players salary.


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## Pop23 (Jun 18, 2018)

Baseball requires patience, much like Soccer. It is not at all for those seeking immediate gratification. But at least with Soccer there isn’t 162 games each year. 

Shorten the season or simply the number of games.

I don’t even pay attention until the last 20 games of the regular season anymore.


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## HereWeGoAgain (Jun 18, 2018)

Lewdog said:


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   I figured the yankees were a top payroll.
Sue me.


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## rightwinger (Jun 18, 2018)

Lewdog said:


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It is a one year anamoly as the Yanks are dumping payroll to get ready for the 2018 free agent market


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## Lewdog (Jun 18, 2018)

rightwinger said:


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Not completely, they just signed Stanton this year.  Now if they have the money... Bryce Harper is a free agent after this year.


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## Rocko (Jun 19, 2018)

Pop23 said:


> Baseball requires patience, much like Soccer. It is not at all for those seeking immediate gratification. But at least with Soccer there isn’t 162 games each year.
> 
> Shorten the season or simply the number of games.
> 
> I don’t even pay attention until the last 20 games of the regular season anymore.



Agreed that it would make for a more interesting mlb, but the owners would never shorten the season for financial reasons


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## Ridgerunner (Jun 19, 2018)

rightwinger said:


> Yankees and Dodgers have not won in recent years
> Crap teams in small markets have



I'll have you know that the Chicago Cubs are not a small market or a crap team...  Phuck the yankees and the dodgers...

Wanna blame something?


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## rightwinger (Jun 20, 2018)

Ridgerunner said:


> rightwinger said:
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Big Market teams win?

Only took the Cubbies 108 years


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## Mr Natural (Jun 20, 2018)

Votto said:


> Spot on!
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> How many years will we have to endure watching the Yankees take on the Red Sox in the playoffs?
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> ...



Not as a Yankees fan it doesn't.


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## LA RAM FAN (Jun 21, 2018)

Votto said:


> Lewdog said:
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> > It's because small market teams have very little chance to compete on a year by year basis with teams in cities like New York and Los Angeles.  There is very little parody in baseball, like there is in the NBA and NFL where draft picks can make such a huge impact in a short period of time, compared to MLB where free agency is much more important.  Generally draft picks in MLB take several years to get to the majors, and that's if they ever do.
> ...



spot on indeed.could not have said it better myself. the good old days when each team had as much a chance to get to the world series as the other guy are over with. those good old days when teams like the twins,padres,pirates,reds could compete with any other team are long gone. The Reds will never have another big red machine again the fact they are a minor league team developing their players for teams like the yankees,red sox,dodgers,and astros now.

Back in the 70's,they NEVER would have let Johnny cuoto go on to another team.he would have been  locked up for a good majority of his career with them.

It indeed DOES get old and tiresome watching the yanks and red sox square off in the playoffs  to see who gets to advance the furthest.tired of that bullshit.

free agency destroyed the game,that cannot be debated.


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## my2¢ (Jun 21, 2018)

I dropped all but basic cable this year simply because I felt gypped given all the commercials contained in the programming.  Baseball is the only thing I miss and no longer feel much of a connection to the local team (D-Backs).


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## iamwhatiseem (Jun 21, 2018)

I quit watching in the 80's like everybody else my age.
Other than that...it is a major investment to follow baseball. They play every other day, who can commit to wasting 2/3 of your daily free time most days of the week?


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## Votto (Jun 21, 2018)

LA RAM FAN said:


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Sometimes I like watching the playoffs to follow all the former Reds players who are now too good to be on the Reds team.

All I need is an app to change their uniforms to the Reds and I will be in hog heaven!


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## Lewdog (Jun 21, 2018)

Votto said:


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Does that mean you are now a Mets' fan?


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## Fort Fun Indiana (Jun 21, 2018)

Votto said:


> How many years will we have to endure watching the Yankees take on the Red Sox in the playoffs?
> 
> It just gets old.


The Yankees appeared in how many world series? Didn't seem to get too old...

While attendance may be the worst in 15 years, it's about triple what it was 30 years ago. Baseball didn't die then...


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## Flash (Jun 21, 2018)

As boring as baseball can be at times soccer is a million times worse.


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## rightwinger (Jun 22, 2018)

Fort Fun Indiana said:


> Votto said:
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We had a very rainy and cold spring
Many games were either cancelled or sparsely attended 

I would not put much value on attendance figures for the start of the season


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## rightwinger (Jun 22, 2018)

Flash said:


> As boring as baseball can be at times soccer is a million times worse.



The World Cup is unwatchable
A team goes up 1-0 and then just sits on the ball for 60 minutes

Reminds me of Basketball before they got a shot clock


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## Flash (Jun 22, 2018)

rightwinger said:


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My sons tried soccer when they were little.  The kids didn't like playing it very much and the parents sure as hell thought it was boring.


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## Fort Fun Indiana (Jun 22, 2018)

rightwinger said:


> Flash said:
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Agreed...50 minutes of adult"keep away"....boring AF


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## Tom Horn (Jun 22, 2018)

When a bomber like JD Martinez has only one real FA offer (Boston), it's pretty obvious MLB owners are "colluding" to shred the money merry-go-round.   Two years ago JD would have fetched $25-$30 for 5 years although he's now almost 31 and a lousy outfielder....You don't pay a DH that kind of money.  Detroit never even offered him a contract with Miggy starting to wear out at $30M a year for 5 more years.  They got jobbed on the Zimmerman contract too which is why they had to trade Verlander....domino theory to get under the cap tax.  Detroit now has several good cheap, young position players and a stable of lights-out pitching prospects who will start appearing in the Show, possibly at the Sept. call up.  And as it turns out, they don't STINK this year as predicted...not the crowds they drew a few years back (3M) but not bad.  This is how MLB will be now....grow your own and keep your stars happy with decent (2-3 years) but not crazy contracts that never seem to work out.


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## Marion Morrison (Jun 22, 2018)

It's always been hard for me to get into watching baseball. I like to play it, but watching a major league game? eh. I'd rather watch my friends I grew up with.


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## Tom Horn (Jun 22, 2018)

Marion Morrison said:


> It's always been hard for me to get into watching baseball. I like to play it, but watching a major league game? eh. I'd rather watch my friends I grew up with.



It's all about how entertaining the announcers are for me.....I never miss a game (got a MLB subscription for Tigers games) when Gibson is in the booth....he's fucking crazy and fun as hell to listen to...he also points out things I never knew after watching almost 60 years of baseball.  There's too much inter-division play too....I might go nuts over the year watching them play Cleveland, then Minnesota, then KC...BOring.   So I advocate for more inter-league play to see the DBacks, Mets, Reds, etc. and GET RID OF PITCHERS BATTING....who needs to see some hurler bunt or whiff on 3 pitches?  not me.


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## rightwinger (Jun 22, 2018)

Tom Horn said:


> Marion Morrison said:
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DH blows


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## Wry Catcher (Jun 22, 2018)

Weatherman2020 said:


> Votto said:
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Good grief, gasp, we agree on something.

Dynamic pricing makes the same seat up to $25 higher when the Dodgers come to The City than when an also ran comes to town.  I'm in a group which buys season tickets and each ticket is the same price in the package, but on the individual ticket there is a different price.

For example my ticket to a Dodger Game is $45 and my ticket to the game against San Diego is $21.  Each ticket in the season ticket package provides a $5 discount on food or beverage,  the average person who goes to one or two games a season is disadvantaged.


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## Tom Horn (Jun 22, 2018)

rightwinger said:


> DH blows



You're living in the past in politics and baseball.  Fans want to see HITTING so why should an NL team get a DH in AL parks and not vice-versa?  AL starting pitchers bat maybe 20 times a season at NL parks.....not that pitchers can hit, with the rare exception, so it's 3 minutes of boredom....I go for refreshments.  NL starting pitchers bat 2 or 3 times a game in say 25-30 starts.....unfair advantage.  All the minor leagues and colleges use the DH last I heard....only the relics like you hate the DH.


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## Bruce_T_Laney (Jun 22, 2018)

Votto said:


> MLB Attendance Drops to Lowest Average In 15 Years
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> Baseball has the lowest attendance in over 15 years.
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Also playing the game during the weekdays does not help either.

Play it Friday, Saturday and Sunday with twin bills on Saturday and Sunday.


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## CrusaderFrank (Jun 22, 2018)

Votto said:


> MLB Attendance Drops to Lowest Average In 15 Years
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> Baseball has the lowest attendance in over 15 years.
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Baseball sucked since George Steinbrenner died


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## Meathead (Jun 22, 2018)

How about a 3 ball walk, a 2 strike strikeout and two fouls with 1 strike is a strikeout?


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## Tom Horn (Jun 22, 2018)

Meathead said:


> How about a 3 ball walk, a 2 strike strikeout and two fouls with 1 strike is a strikeout?



I'd keep balls and strikes traditional but I'd call four FOUL balls a strikeout same as softball.  Announcers call a 10 pitch AB "good" with plenty of foul balls.....stupid.  If the putz can't strike the ball into fair territory in 4 tries he's out.


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## HereWeGoAgain (Jun 22, 2018)

I was never really into baseball but decided last year I'd give it a fair shake.
   And the Stros won it all!! 

  Watching a losing team sucks but with the bats Houston has there's plenty of scoring to keep things interesting.


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## HereWeGoAgain (Jun 22, 2018)

Tom Horn said:


> Meathead said:
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   I could agree with that.
It would also lesson the impact on the pitcher.


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## Meathead (Jun 22, 2018)

Tom Horn said:


> Meathead said:
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If you want to speed up the game, you're going to have to think outside the box. Sorry about the cliché.


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## Tom Horn (Jun 22, 2018)

HereWeGoAgain said:


> I was never really into baseball but decided last year I'd give it a fair shake.
> And the Stros won it all!!
> 
> Watching a losing team sucks but with the bats Houston has there's plenty of scoring to keep things interesting.



PLUS Verlander is always apt to throw a no-no....he put tens of thousands extra asses in the seats when he pitched in Detroit.  We hope to get him back in 2020 when his contract is up.


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## Tom Horn (Jun 22, 2018)

Meathead said:


> want to speed up the game, you're going to have to think outside the box. Sorry about the cliché.



They're trying....limited mound visits this year....automatic intentional walk.....supposedly faster replay reviews which could be faster if they didn't get them from NEW YORK WTF?  Use the golf cart to bring in relief pitchers ending in spinning a dounut on the pitcher's mound.  Beisbol is a passtime....not intended to be frantic like basketball or too mind-numbing like football.  Game within the game within the game.


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## HereWeGoAgain (Jun 22, 2018)

Tom Horn said:


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   He went for the Stros because he wanted a chance to win the World Series and damned if he didnt win one.
   He'd be 36 by then so he could play a bit longer.
Plus I could see him wanting to end his career in Detroit.


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## Tom Horn (Jun 22, 2018)

HereWeGoAgain said:


> He went for the Stros because he wanted a chance to win the World Series and damned if he didnt win one.
> He'd be 36 by then so he could play a bit longer.
> Plus I could see him wanting to end his career in Detroit.



Yep, for all he did in Detroit it's a shame he didn't get a ring there...they went to the WS twice but terrible managing destroyed them.  If we can get Verlander back, I'd like to see him be a CLOSER....if he only had to throw one inning he could bring back the 102 mph steam and closers get good dough....not that he needs it.  If he can go into the HOF wearing a Tiger cap, the circle would be unbroken.


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## Wry Catcher (Jun 22, 2018)

Tom Horn said:


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The DH makes managing much easier, and as professional athletes every pitcher needs to be competent in bunting, and willing to work in the cage to at least put the ball in play (unless the double play is possible).  The Big Leagues do not use pepper as an excellent way to develop putting the sweet spot on the ball, pepper seems to be a practice and a skill long lost.

As for food, the two best ball parks where I've enjoyed the food are AT&T in SF, and the parks in Milwaukee and Philadelphia.  NY, Chicago and LA are typical & fare, and expensive. Seattle's okay, Boston has lots of choices outside of Fenway as does San Diego.   Tampa;'s stadium is a dump and in Phoenix like Boston and San Diego the food is best eaten in the community.


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## CrusaderFrank (Jun 22, 2018)

Pitchers should be allowed one hit batter per game without taking their base

Yeah, that'll spice it up


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## Tom Horn (Jun 22, 2018)

CrusaderFrank said:


> Pitchers should be allowed one hit batter per game without taking their base
> 
> Yeah, that'll spice it up



I agree!  But it can't be called a "beanball" unless he hits him in the bean (head).   I suggest a "ballball" be used on hotdogs who celebrate a HR rounding the bases...the ballball is self-explanatory to everybody but the libs who don't have balls.


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## Polishprince (Jun 22, 2018)

Votto said:


> Baseball has the lowest attendance in over 15 years.
> 
> Why?.




Its boring because they do such a poor job of moving the games along.   All this replay crap just makes a slow game even slower.

In other sports that are doing well, like Professional Wrestling, they don't have booth reviews or any reviews.   The refs decisions are usually final and they move on.


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## HereWeGoAgain (Jun 22, 2018)

Polishprince said:


> Votto said:
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Professional wrestling?


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## Polishprince (Jun 22, 2018)

HereWeGoAgain said:


> Professional wrestling?




Exactly.    If a competitor complains that the count was quick or was somehow cheated in any way- they don't hold up the match and have the referees have meeting or the folks in the commissioners office in Greenwich look it over before they continue.

They move the match along and that is that.


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## Zander (Jun 22, 2018)

I went to the Angels/Blue Jays game last night with some friends. I took the train from LA down to Anaheim for $7.00 round trip. What a deal! 

Anyway, roughly 65% of the seats were sold for a Thursday game - not bad. 

The Dodgers (who I see far more often and actively root for) sell over 3 million seats every year, so it really depends on the team and the market. 

PS-the game was awesome- 5 or 6 homers. Angels won 8-5


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## HereWeGoAgain (Jun 22, 2018)

Polishprince said:


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  Who the hell watches wrestling?
Now MMA is another story.


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## HereWeGoAgain (Jun 22, 2018)

Exciting Baseball......


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## rightwinger (Jun 22, 2018)

Tom Horn said:


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Fans are stupid
Fantasy baseball fans want home runs and lots of hits 

That is why we have Home run derby as players swing from the heels and strike outs pile up

Batting is part of the game, so is playing the field. Stupid batters can’t even beat a defensive shift. They can’t bunt, can’t steal a base


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## rightwinger (Jun 22, 2018)

Polishprince said:


> HereWeGoAgain said:
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They know beforehand who is going to win

You want a replay of the manager hitting a guy with a chair while the refs are looking the other way?


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## blastoff (Jun 23, 2018)

Some media guy I heard on a sports radio show this week said the average age of World Seriers viewers this year was fifty-four or something like that and reminded listeners that meant a whole bunch of 60s, 70s, 80s folks have to be watching to get it that high.  

If he’s right baseball most certainly has a very serious problem.


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## Montrovant (Jun 23, 2018)

blastoff said:


> Some media guy I heard on a sports radio show this week said the average age of World Seriers viewers this year was fifty-four or something like that and reminded listeners that meant a whole bunch of 60s, 70s, 80s folks have to be watching to get it that high.
> 
> If he’s right baseball most certainly has a very serious problem.



I thought I'd post a few links to ages for sports viewers, including a bit about baseball:

The sports with the oldest — and youngest — TV audiences
Age demographic analysis paints an interesting picture of championship games
Fixing Baseball's Old-People Problem


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## rightwinger (Jun 23, 2018)

Montrovant said:


> blastoff said:
> 
> 
> > Some media guy I heard on a sports radio show this week said the average age of World Seriers viewers this year was fifty-four or something like that and reminded listeners that meant a whole bunch of 60s, 70s, 80s folks have to be watching to get it that high.
> ...


Looks like video games will be the dominant sport


----------



## blastoff (Jun 23, 2018)

rightwinger said:


> Montrovant said:
> 
> 
> > blastoff said:
> ...


A very good possibility I’d say.  

Probably a lot easier to master hitting the big curve in a video than a real baseball heading for your noggin that breaks for a strike the instant you go bailing out for your life.


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## Pilot1 (Jun 23, 2018)

I am surprised any Millennials watch at all.  Baseball requires patience, and is often not the sport for action, and instant gratification.  With all the other forms of entertainment on phones, and tablets it is difficult for an archaic game like baseball to compete.


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## blastoff (Jun 23, 2018)

The game within the game is the pitcher/hitter battle most folks can’t identify with because they’ve never experienced it at the major league level.  It ain’t like it was in little league, Babe Ruth, high school or college or even the minors.  Those battles have to be won before anything else happens in the game, but most watching don’t know much of the nuances of what’s going on pitch by pitch.


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## rightwinger (Jun 23, 2018)

blastoff said:


> The game within the game is the pitcher/hitter battle most folks can’t identify with because they’ve never experienced it at the major league level.  It ain’t like it was in little league, Babe Ruth, high school or college or even the minors.  Those battles have to be won before anything else happens in the game, but most watching don’t know much of the nuances of what’s going on pitch by pitch.



Today’s younger fans have little interest in the nuances and strategies of the game

In Baseball, all they care about are strikeouts and Home runs
In Football they want passing and lots of TDS
In Basketball, threes and dunks


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## LA RAM FAN (Jun 23, 2018)

Marion Morrison said:


> It's always been hard for me to get into watching baseball. I like to play it, but watching a major league game? eh. I'd rather watch my friends I grew up with.



same here.it was a blast to PLAY the game growing up but watching it as painful.thats why the only if it is a special team of mine i love such as the cubs,do i ever bother to watch the playoffs now.


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## LA RAM FAN (Jun 23, 2018)

Tom Horn said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> > DH blows
> ...


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## boedicca (Jun 23, 2018)

I love baseball - it reminds me of my dad.   He was such a fan.


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## Tom Horn (Jun 23, 2018)

rightwinger said:


> Batting is part of the game, so is playing the field. Stupid batters can’t even beat a defensive shift. They can’t bunt, can’t steal a base



I hate the shift....it's robbed our DH Victor Martinez of maybe a hundred knocks over the last few years because he's a slow runner (13 years of catching in the Show will do that to a fella).  He nails a pitch on a line into RF, the 2B fields it on one hop and throws his out...it's bullshit.  Name me Commissioner and I'll make all infielders keep their feets on the dirt.....yes I will.  If an infielder's toe even touches the OF grass during the pitcher's windup, my umps will eject him.  This shift nonsense is killing the hitting.  Why should a power hitter have to try to dink singles to the opposite field because the defense has 4 guys in the pull-field?


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## Tom Horn (Jun 23, 2018)

I'm right-handed and didn't find out I could really HIT batting lefty until I was 15....too late.   I've been beaned, clobbered by a flying bat while standing on 3B, and once in a Pony League game, went over a chain-link fence in LF, robbing a sure HR and landed on the hood of my Mom's car.  She was sound asleep at the time and woke up with a start....I waved and showed her the ball in my glove and she dutifully beeped the horn with a big yawn.


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## rightwinger (Jun 24, 2018)

Tom Horn said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> > Batting is part of the game, so is playing the field. Stupid batters can’t even beat a defensive shift. They can’t bunt, can’t steal a base
> ...


Choke up and slap it to the other field
Go for HRs when the situation calls for it


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## Tom Horn (Jun 24, 2018)

rightwinger said:


> Choke up and slap it to the other field
> Go for HRs when the situation calls for it



The situation always calls for a HR until you have 2 strikes on ya.  With modern pitching, you have to guess what's coming, always ready to hit the cheese.  If you're looking for the fastball you can still hit the yakker or the sinker but not the other way around.  Most power hitters look for something to drive until they get two strikes on them.  Then you see the subtle change to defensive hitting or just trying to meet the ball.  Today's MLB hurlers throw so hard with "late break" it's almost impossible to guide the ball past a shift....they're lucky to hit it at all and why there are so many foul balls.  SO, to counteract the pitcher's advantage, you're seeing more catcher's signs being stolen, not only by base-runners but the "eye in the sky"....a camera in the scoreboard.  Don't think it ain't happening and that MLB isn't aware of it and they close it down when they catch a club doing it but you never hear about it.  So the hitters are using the dangerous harder maple bats instead of the old ash wood.  Dangerous because they don't break...they shatter and sooner of later a pitcher or corner infielder with get speared by a shard and they'll be banned.  

And the ball is juiced....you see balls struck up by the trademark traveling 400 feet.  Even the most modern ballparks are still designed for the 60's era hitters in HR distances. A 21st century SS can drive a ball out of the park because he's 3 inches taller and 20 pounds heavier than a SS from that era.  Then there's the bandbox parks where a breeze blowing out has the OF stationed on the warning tracks even for the bottom of the batting order.  I disagree with the OP that baseball is dying...it's changing and like NASCAR, there are things the fans aren't liking....like the shift and 100 pitch limits on the starters.....and of course the crazy salaries which makes tickets and concessions too expense for working stiffs.  When it costs a guy $150 bucks to take his family to a game, half of the fans will watch the game at home other than a visit or two a summer.  So MLB owners are swearing off big FA contracts and maybe, just maybe, with lower salaries, they can lower prices and bring their fans back out to the park.


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## Fort Fun Indiana (Jun 24, 2018)

Tom Horn said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> > Choke up and slap it to the other field
> ...


The players are juiced as well.


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## Tom Horn (Jun 24, 2018)

Fort Fun Indiana said:


> The players are juiced as well.



Just say whatever pops into your pea brain don't ya....

First offense:  80 games
Second Offense : 162 games
Third Offense:  Lifetime ban.


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## Montrovant (Jun 24, 2018)

Tom Horn said:


> Fort Fun Indiana said:
> 
> 
> > The players are juiced as well.
> ...



6 players have gotten that 80 game suspension in the last 2 years.  Obviously, those are only the ones who were caught.


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## Tom Horn (Jun 24, 2018)

Montrovant said:


> 6 players have gotten that 80 game suspension in the last 2 years.  Obviously, those are only the ones who were caught.



It's a thing of the past.....they suspend if they find a trace of a masking agent.  Look at the players today....no zits and jimmy legs sitting on the bench.  They don't juice anymore because it's not necessary....with the right vitamin/mineral supplements, weights, and personal trainers they get the same results..hell, they're doing YOGA.


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## Montrovant (Jun 24, 2018)

Tom Horn said:


> Montrovant said:
> 
> 
> > 6 players have gotten that 80 game suspension in the last 2 years.  Obviously, those are only the ones who were caught.
> ...



And yet those players were all suspended since mid-June of 2016.  Athletes look for an edge.  Some are willing to cheat to do it.  It may not be as common as it has been in the past, but clearly it still happens at least occasionally.


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## rightwinger (Jun 25, 2018)

Tom Horn said:


> Fort Fun Indiana said:
> 
> 
> > The players are juiced as well.
> ...


The players are juiced

They operate on the fringe of allowable drug levels


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## Tom Horn (Jun 25, 2018)

rightwinger said:


> The players are juiced
> 
> They operate on the fringe of allowable drug levels



There are no "allowable drug levels" of steroids which is what "juiced" refers to.  I realize once you've latched onto a fantasy you won't let go of it.  MLB drug testing is cutting edge stuff, far superior to what some turd in a lab can come up with to mask 'roid use.  Players are randomly tested during the season and in the off-season....it's part of the labor agreement.  Marginal minor leaguers, usually latins, get snagged trying to cheat and it makes the news...why?  because it's news for it's rarity.  Those who lose 80 games usually get released which becomes a lifetime ban.....MLB took so much grief over Clemens and Bonds, McGuire, Palmiero, etc. it's now a death sentence.  The only reason the ban isn't permanent for the first offense is that a player may take a banned supplement by mistake...something a latin may get in the Dominican Republic , Venezuela, or some other third-world shithole.....okay, so now you know whether you realize it or not...class dismissed.


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## rightwinger (Jun 25, 2018)

Tom Horn said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> > The players are juiced
> ...


Sure....Baseballs screening is 100 percent effective
Drug use is over with...Baseball is clean

Total BS


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## Polishprince (Jun 25, 2018)

rightwinger said:


> Sure....Baseballs screening is 100 percent effective
> Drug use is over with...Baseball is clean
> 
> Total BS




There is a lot of money to be made playing a kid's game.   Young men are willing to take big risks.

Sure, its risky taking steroids or other enhancements.  Not only is there the risk of getting pinched, there is a risk of health problems during and after the young man's career.

But taking chances is what young guys do- being a soldier is risky, iron worker jobs are risky, astronaut is risky, sticking people up is risky.


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## mudwhistle (Jun 25, 2018)

Votto said:


> MLB Attendance Drops to Lowest Average In 15 Years
> 
> Baseball has the lowest attendance in over 15 years.
> 
> ...


Baseball no has been berry berry good to me.


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## rightwinger (Jun 25, 2018)

mudwhistle said:


> Votto said:
> 
> 
> > MLB Attendance Drops to Lowest Average In 15 Years
> ...


Go away Chico


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## LA RAM FAN (Jun 25, 2018)

HereWeGoAgain said:


> Lewdog said:
> 
> 
> > HereWeGoAgain said:
> ...



your living in the past.LOL the dodgers are the new biggest  money grabbers.


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## LA RAM FAN (Jun 25, 2018)

Pop23 said:


> Baseball requires patience, much like Soccer. It is not at all for those seeking immediate gratification. But at least with Soccer there isn’t 162 games each year.
> 
> Shorten the season or simply the number of games.
> 
> I don’t even pay attention until the last 20 games of the regular season anymore.



same here,until the final month of the season,i dont even pay attention whats going on in baseball.yeah your right,they need to shorten the games,162 is way too many to keep any interest.


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## Rocko (Jun 25, 2018)

LA RAM FAN said:


> Pop23 said:
> 
> 
> > Baseball requires patience, much like Soccer. It is not at all for those seeking immediate gratification. But at least with Soccer there isn’t 162 games each year.
> ...


The owners don’t want to lose out on the revenue


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## LA RAM FAN (Jun 25, 2018)

Tom Horn said:


> Meathead said:
> 
> 
> > How about a 3 ball walk, a 2 strike strikeout and two fouls with 1 strike is a strikeout?
> ...



yeah its long overdue that they should call a certain amount of foul balls a strikeout same as in softball. in the pros.players know how to keep fouling balls off till they get the pitch they want,,thats BS.


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## HereWeGoAgain (Jun 25, 2018)

LA RAM FAN said:


> HereWeGoAgain said:
> 
> 
> > Lewdog said:
> ...



   As I said earlier....
"I decided to pay attention this year"  never followed baseball in my life other than in the series.
     I do know the Stros are winning with a far lighter payroll.


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## Fort Fun Indiana (Jun 25, 2018)

HereWeGoAgain said:


> LA RAM FAN said:
> 
> 
> > HereWeGoAgain said:
> ...


Tanking for a decade tends to help that.


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## Moonglow (Jun 25, 2018)

*Baseball is dying*

*It was dead to me after Rawley Fingers and his handlebar mustache won the series...*


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## Moonglow (Jun 25, 2018)

I did get to see Hank Arron play in Candlestick Park in San Fransico in 1972, no homers that day..


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## HereWeGoAgain (Jun 25, 2018)

Fort Fun Indiana said:


> HereWeGoAgain said:
> 
> 
> > LA RAM FAN said:
> ...



  They built through their farm league.
So how's baseball in hicksville?


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## Fort Fun Indiana (Jun 25, 2018)

HereWeGoAgain said:


> Fort Fun Indiana said:
> 
> 
> > HereWeGoAgain said:
> ...


yes, and they did so by being in the cellar for a decade. It's not a secret.

Baseball is good here in Cubbieville, thanks!


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## HereWeGoAgain (Jun 25, 2018)

Fort Fun Indiana said:


> HereWeGoAgain said:
> 
> 
> > Fort Fun Indiana said:
> ...



  Sounds exciting.......
Cubbieville

   I think I'll watch the Stros.


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## Fort Fun Indiana (Jun 25, 2018)

HereWeGoAgain said:


> Fort Fun Indiana said:
> 
> 
> > HereWeGoAgain said:
> ...


Good, they are hurting for fans, they need you!


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## HereWeGoAgain (Jun 25, 2018)

Fort Fun Indiana said:


> HereWeGoAgain said:
> 
> 
> > Fort Fun Indiana said:
> ...



   They were seventh in the league in attendance.
Got any other bullshit ya wanna sell?


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## JakeStarkey (Jun 25, 2018)

Having a slow year, sweet heart, is not dying.


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## Fort Fun Indiana (Jun 25, 2018)

HereWeGoAgain said:


> Fort Fun Indiana said:
> 
> 
> > HereWeGoAgain said:
> ...


They still need the fans... Lighten up, Francis.

Now, cubs attendance? There is some serious fan interest.


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## HereWeGoAgain (Jun 25, 2018)

Fort Fun Indiana said:


> HereWeGoAgain said:
> 
> 
> > Fort Fun Indiana said:
> ...



42-33?....


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## Fort Fun Indiana (Jun 25, 2018)

HereWeGoAgain said:


> Fort Fun Indiana said:
> 
> 
> > HereWeGoAgain said:
> ...


Yep, and probably your opponent in the series.


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## HereWeGoAgain (Jun 25, 2018)

Fort Fun Indiana said:


> HereWeGoAgain said:
> 
> 
> > Fort Fun Indiana said:
> ...



  You're two ahead of the Stros.


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## HereWeGoAgain (Jun 25, 2018)

Fort Fun Indiana said:


> HereWeGoAgain said:
> 
> 
> > Fort Fun Indiana said:
> ...



  Lets hope so....


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## HereWeGoAgain (Jun 25, 2018)

HereWeGoAgain said:


> Fort Fun Indiana said:
> 
> 
> > HereWeGoAgain said:
> ...



......oh,with no chance of winning the Series.


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## Fort Fun Indiana (Jun 25, 2018)

HereWeGoAgain said:


> HereWeGoAgain said:
> 
> 
> > Fort Fun Indiana said:
> ...


I recommend you bet your house on that.


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## HereWeGoAgain (Jun 25, 2018)

Fort Fun Indiana said:


> HereWeGoAgain said:
> 
> 
> > HereWeGoAgain said:
> ...




Which one?


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## Fort Fun Indiana (Jun 25, 2018)

HereWeGoAgain said:


> Fort Fun Indiana said:
> 
> 
> > HereWeGoAgain said:
> ...


Well, nobody wants your outhouse, so just the trailer.


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## HereWeGoAgain (Jun 25, 2018)

Fort Fun Indiana said:


> HereWeGoAgain said:
> 
> 
> > Fort Fun Indiana said:
> ...




   Doesnt work....


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## Old Yeller (Jun 25, 2018)

Stros got STL super-exec Jeff Lunhow sp? Who can find talent.  Good manager too.  But almost blew it to LA last year........sticking w/slumping reddick.

STL went down crapper with Matheney-Mozilak.  This has allowed the Cubs to rise up and finally win one.

Two hottest teams in baseball right now  are in Ohio? CIN CLEVE getting hot.

I don't know if length of game is so bad?  Maybe too little action?  fix your jewlery and get in box and hit! What do I know?  Some of my favorite games are 1-0  nail-biters small-ball.


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## blastoff (Jun 26, 2018)

mudwhistle said:


> Votto said:
> 
> 
> > MLB Attendance Drops to Lowest Average In 15 Years
> ...


Ah, Chico Escuela lives!


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## Pogo (Jul 6, 2018)

Votto said:


> Lewdog said:
> 
> 
> > Votto said:
> ...



That's odd since I'm in western NC and I literally can't watch an MLB-TV game if the Reds are involved because it considers this are in the Reds' "market"..  Even though in order to get to Cincinnati to watch a game I'd have to drive out to Tennessee, across that, across Kentucky and west to Cincinnati. I'd basically have to leave the previous day.

That's quite a wide "market".  And perhaps that term is the whole crux of the matter.


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## harmonica (Jul 6, 2018)

I have never seen such crap fielding
they can't throw to a base from the infield area---they throw WAY wide
running errors that 8th graders would never do 
games tied or close and wild pitches/runs WALKED in
not much bunting--especially with a man on third less than 2 outs


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## harmonica (Jul 6, 2018)

my dad would listen/watch the games
but he always said it was a very boring sport
think about how much action there is per non-action
...
the pitcher walks around with the ball, looks for the sign, sometimes he steps off the rubber, looks for the sign, winds up and pitches
...over and over.....after a foul, he has to get a new ball, walks off the mound and rub the new ball....
....if a relief pitcher comes in, there's a lot of inaction there
...no action in between innings
..the batters move out of the box after every pitch/etc
etc


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## harmonica (Jul 6, 2018)

HereWeGoAgain said:


> Votto said:
> 
> 
> > MLB Attendance Drops to Lowest Average In 15 Years
> ...


I thought the last few years, the lower paid team did well??


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## harmonica (Jul 6, 2018)

rightwinger said:


> Flash said:
> 
> 
> > As boring as baseball can be at times soccer is a million times worse.
> ...


the one World Cup game some years ago they played 90 minutes and no score
then a lot of the games go to penalty kicks!!!  really stupid--they play for 120 minutes!!
TWO hours and no winner!!!


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## HereWeGoAgain (Jul 6, 2018)

harmonica said:


> HereWeGoAgain said:
> 
> 
> > Votto said:
> ...




They did,and they're doing so again this year.
While the Stros are nowhere near the bottom they arent exactly top end when it comes to payroll.


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## harmonica (Jul 6, 2018)

HereWeGoAgain said:


> harmonica said:
> 
> 
> > HereWeGoAgain said:
> ...


I thought STLCards never had a huge payroll but they have won many WSeries...? 2nd highest ...?


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## Lewdog (Jul 6, 2018)

Pogo said:


> Votto said:
> 
> 
> > Lewdog said:
> ...




You just need to get Fox Sports Ohio.


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## HereWeGoAgain (Jul 6, 2018)

harmonica said:


> HereWeGoAgain said:
> 
> 
> > harmonica said:
> ...



  What exactly are you trying to get at?


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## harmonica (Jul 6, 2018)

here STLCards went to WS while in lower half of payroll
1987 Major League Baseball Attendance & Team Age | Baseball-Reference.com


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## harmonica (Jul 6, 2018)

HereWeGoAgain said:


> harmonica said:
> 
> 
> > HereWeGoAgain said:
> ...


you don't need a big payroll to get to WS


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## harmonica (Jul 6, 2018)

Old Yeller said:


> Stros got STL super-exec Jeff Lunhow sp? Who can find talent.  Good manager too.  But almost blew it to LA last year........sticking w/slumping reddick.
> 
> STL went down crapper with Matheney-Mozilak.  This has allowed the Cubs to rise up and finally win one.
> 
> ...


I thought some teams in the 70's would play that way--get 1 or 2, then bring in the closer 
bunt a run in here or there/etc


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## HereWeGoAgain (Jul 6, 2018)

harmonica said:


> HereWeGoAgain said:
> 
> 
> > harmonica said:
> ...



  Which is what I was getting at.


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## harmonica (Jul 6, 2018)

HereWeGoAgain said:


> harmonica said:
> 
> 
> > HereWeGoAgain said:
> ...


yes, I know--I was adding some evidence


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## Natural Citizen (Jul 6, 2018)

Really, pastimes are a reflection of society's programming. lol.

Carlin did a great skit about football, for instance, versus baseball. The objectives of the two games are completely different. Turn on the television and it's nonstop war incorporated. There's no talk about going home. Know what I mean?

Here's what Carlin said about it. Ha.

In football the object is for the quarterback, also known as the field general, to be on target with his aerial assault, riddling the defense by hitting his receivers with deadly accuracy in spite of the blitz, even if he has to use shotgun. With short bullet passes and long bombs, he marches his troops into enemy territory, balancing this aerial assault with a sustained ground attack that punches holes in the forward wall of the enemy's defensive line.

In baseball the object is to go home! And to be safe! But nobody ever talks about that. lol. So, you know, we indulge in that with which we can relate lol.


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## Soggy in NOLA (Jul 6, 2018)

It is a shame... I love baseball, played it all my younger years, even two years in college.


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## Natural Citizen (Jul 6, 2018)

Soggy in NOLA said:


> It is a shame... I love baseball, played it all my younger years, even two years in college.



Agree. There's nothing more fulfilling than watching kids follow that dream. Lord knows I've thrown my fair share of buckets. And, yeah, like you said, playing in college. Even better to to see one of em make it to the show.

That's what it's about. Following that dream. Living the dream, I suppose is a better way to say it.


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## harmonica (Jul 7, 2018)

I'm sure someone has said it, but culture has changed....?
we used to play sports all the time in the street/watch TV/read books
we walked everywhere
.....we had no phones/cable tv/ipads/PCs/Netflix/etc and I was never bored--now my kids have all of this and say they are bored!!!!  I tell them' 'go cut the lawn if you are bored''--I was never bored
...life was ''slower'' years ago ....people took the time to walk some where/read a book/sit outside to enjoy the day-evening/etc..
my dad would just walk---and walk--to keep in shape and for something to do
--so baseball can be ''boring'' to the youngsters
--I will say my oldest daughter loves the games though
...my youngest does not

....I can just sit somewhere to enjoy the day/etc for a long time....I don't think the younger people can...always on their phones
...last night the wife and I enjoyed watching our fire outside in the pit --very relaxing


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## harmonica (Jul 7, 2018)

...my daughters played softball till they started lacrosse when the younger one was older....then no more softball ...no one wanted to play softball
..it did seem very boring for the younger girls----no runs no hits...if a hit, very weak
....walk after walk sometimes/etc --it was '''painful'' to go through a game sometimes
..even up to 6th  or 7th grade before they started lacrosse, the games could be slooooow
...lacrosse is much more fun/fast/exciting
..even soccer was more exciting
..it could get real hot and the kids in the field would just have to stand there--with no action at all for a long time--like torture


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## Pogo (Jul 7, 2018)

Lewdog said:


> Pogo said:
> 
> 
> > Votto said:
> ...



As far as I know Cincinnati sports has no coverage where I live.  Atlanta does (and even that is a four-hour drive).  But Ohio is three states away, and yet it blocks me out from watching games, even if the Reds (or Braves) were playing in San Diego.  Which is bullshit.

I don't have TV anyway so neither the Reds nor the Braves are within sight.  But MLB won't take that into account.  And it's kind of odd that they try to tell me I'm in one "market" -- and yet I'm also in another "market".

Mostly I use satellite radio.  They can't track where you are so you can follow any game you want.  On the other hand you have to take the home feed.


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## LA RAM FAN (Jul 9, 2018)

Soggy in NOLA said:


> It is a shame... I love baseball, played it all my younger years, even two years in college.



It indeed is sad that the owners and the players have ruined the game,Thats the same with football as well. I wish i had been good enough to go as far as two years in college to play it as you did,man that is so cool you got to do that.

I stopped in high school though because thats when i wasnt good at it anymore.when your not good at something,thats when you dont find it fun anymore.


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## Soggy in NOLA (Jul 9, 2018)

LA RAM FAN said:


> Soggy in NOLA said:
> 
> 
> > It is a shame... I love baseball, played it all my younger years, even two years in college.
> ...



Well, I played in the Sunbelt Conference... and I didn't play that much mind you.


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## LA RAM FAN (Jul 11, 2018)

Soggy in NOLA said:


> LA RAM FAN said:
> 
> 
> > Soggy in NOLA said:
> ...



A Bench warmer like I was in high school when i played football eh?

I was a bench warmer in football  because i did not get to start playing it till my junior year in high school so i only got to play it two years.Fucking parents wouldnt let me while growing up which is why i did not shed much of tear when they passed on.


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## rightwinger (Jul 11, 2018)

LA RAM FAN said:


> Soggy in NOLA said:
> 
> 
> > LA RAM FAN said:
> ...


In that case, you are an asshole


----------



## Soggy in NOLA (Jul 11, 2018)

LA RAM FAN said:


> Soggy in NOLA said:
> 
> 
> > LA RAM FAN said:
> ...



That's kinda harsh man...


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## Unkotare (Jul 14, 2018)

Baseball will be around long, long after anyone reading this forum is completely dust.


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## rightwinger (Jul 14, 2018)

Unkotare said:


> Baseball will be around long, long after anyone reading this forum is completely dust.



I think baseball will remain in its current form longer than football does


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## harmonica (Jul 14, 2018)

one of the most dumbass things I've seen in baseball
the player did not even know the rules of the game


> Catcher Yadier Molina tagged McCutchen. After a moment's hesitation, LaRoche, thinking he was out, stepped off the bag. Molina tagged LaRoche and celebrated a rare double play.


Blunders beat Bucs


----------

