# Pharmacists can't refuse Plan B pill



## FA_Q2 (Jul 14, 2010)

A new law here in Washington forces pharmacies to carry and sell the Plan B pill.  Owners of several pharmacies have filed lawsuit based on the freedom of religion claiming that Plan B is against their beliefs and they refuse to sell the contraceptive.  Lawmakers are contemplating changing the law to read that they do not have to carry Plan B if they refer customers to a nearby store that does sell the pill.

I wonder what the take on this concept is here.  I am somewhat taken aback by this as I would have thought that it would naturally be the right of the business owner to decide what he or she sells.  What right does the state have to mandate that a particular business sells anything.  I understand regulation and placing limitations on items that a business is allowed to sell but forcing one to sell something seems over the top.  What are your thoughts?



Pharmacists can't refuse Plan B pill, appeals court says - Los Angeles Times


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## xotoxi (Jul 14, 2010)

I wonder if those pharmacists that are so pissed carry regular birth control pills.


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## FA_Q2 (Jul 14, 2010)

xotoxi said:


> I wonder if those pharmacists that are so pissed carry regular birth control pills.



Birth control prevents an egg from dropping in the first place and therefore prevents the fertilization of the egg.  Plan B does not allow the egg to implant in the wall AFTER fertilization, the point at which many feel life begins at.  To them, it is the same as killing the child.  If there is a catholic here I would like to know how they feel about selling birth control since it is against catholic dogma to take it.  Do Catholics equate birth control to murder in the same manner as the plan b pill?


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## JBeukema (Jul 14, 2010)

FA_Q2 said:


> Plan B does not allow the egg to implant in the wall AFTER fertilization



As does nature, most of the time.



> the point at which many feel life begins at


There's no room for opinion when it comes to basic scientific facts as when a new lifeform is created via the fusion of two germ cells nto a singular distinct organism.


> .  To them, it is the same as killing the child


Then I recommend they talk to God about his countless abortions and they don't take Plan b.


Solution: tell the gov to STFU and let business chose whether or not to sell a given product. Allow those who sell BC, including Plan B to add their name a list if they wish and require that is a pharmacy does not sell prophylactics/BC, they provide the address and phone number for the Health Department an/or a list of those pharmacies who requested their name be added to the list. Allow the Health Department (or whatever department thereof) to make BC available to those in need.


Where I live, the Health Department has a Department of Family Planning and Women's Health that makes condoms available. This same department can be set up in the city in question and tasked with also providing BC or, if more feasible, guiding those in need to where they might acquire such resources.


That way, the pharmacists are not forced to sell something to do not wish to sell and those in need still have access to BC, including Plan B.


Can we all live with that?


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## xotoxi (Jul 15, 2010)

FA_Q2 said:


> xotoxi said:
> 
> 
> > I wonder if those pharmacists that are so pissed carry regular birth control pills.
> ...



However, the woman could just purchase any BCP, take 4-6 of them, and she would have the same result as Plan B.

So, in essense, they would have to refuse to carry ALL BCPs if they wanted to have a clear conscience.


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## Quantum Windbag (Jul 15, 2010)

JBeukema said:


> As does nature, most of the time.



Where did you pick up that bit of knowledge?



JBeukema said:


> There's no room for opinion when it comes to basic scientific facts as when a new lifeform is created via the fusion of two germ cells nto a singular distinct organism.



Yet you continue to debate about it.



JBeukema said:


> Then I recommend they talk to God about his countless abortions and they don't take Plan b.



What does that have to do with forcing them to sell it?



JBeukema said:


> Solution: tell the gov to STFU and let business chose whether or not to sell a given product. Allow those who sell BC, including Plan B to add their name a list if they wish and require that is a pharmacy does not sell prophylactics/BC, they provide the address and phone number for the Health Department an/or a list of those pharmacies who requested their name be added to the list. Allow the Health Department (or whatever department thereof) to make BC available to those in need.



Health departments do provide birth control in the form of condoms. 



JBeukema said:


> Where I live, the Health Department has a Department of Family Planning and Women's Health that makes condoms available. This same department can be set up in the city in question and tasked with also providing BC or, if more feasible, guiding those in need to where they might acquire such resources.



I see you are already familiar with that fact, why are you suggesting that they do something you already know they do.



JBeukema said:


> That way, the pharmacists are not forced to sell something to do not wish to sell and those in need still have access to BC, including Plan B.



Oh, you want the health department to hand out prescription medication to anyone who asks for it, even if they do not have a prescription. Would that include things like morphine, or do you just want to restrict it to drugs that are useful to women? I think I could make a pretty good case that that is discriminatory.



JBeukema said:


> Can we all live with that?



Government agencies discriminating on the basis of sex? Why would anyone have a problem with that? Not to mention the fact that it would violate federal law.



JBeukema said:


> Example of the services



Brilliant.


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## Madeline (Jul 15, 2010)

Some national chains of drugstores have shown hesitancy to sell Plan B out of fear of retaliation from anti-abortion activitists.  Allowing a drug store to tell a patient with a valid script they will not fill it because of a POV about that patient's life, lifestyle, etc. seems contrary to the role of the pharmacist in the health care team.  

My own feeling is if a filled prescription for Plan B is that difficult for a pharmacist he or she has doubtless faced other ethical dilemmas before...and maybe pharmacy is not the right career for them.  In some communities, at certain times, these drug stores are filling scripts handed out by ERs to rape victims.  Somehow I just can't get that excited about "the store owner's right to refuse to sell something".


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## JBeukema (Jul 15, 2010)

Quantum Windbag said:


> JBeukema said:
> 
> 
> > As does nature, most of the time.
> ...





Really, you think every fertilized egg implants? 



> embryo loss in assisted reproduction is less frequent than  in natural pregnancy, in which more than half of all  fertilized eggs either fail to implant or are otherwise lost.


NEJM -- Embryo Ethics -- The Moral Logic of Stem-Cell Research

John M. Opitz of the University of Utah testified  before the President's council on Bioethics in 2003, he noted that  between 60 and 80 percent of all naturally conceived embryos are simply  flushed out in a woman's normal menstrual cycle in the first 7 days  after fertilization, and that women never even know that conception has  taken place. 

Furthermore,


> about 15% of all recognized pregnancies end in spontaneous abortions, usually during the first 12 weeks





> At least 15% of zygotes and blastocysts abort... another 30 per cent of women abort very early, unaware that they were pregnant... the overall _early spontaneous abortion rate  _is thought to be about 45 per cent


Emphasis in original; used to signify important terminology



> [it is estimated that] of the 70-75 per cent of blastocysts that implant, only 58 per cent survive to the end of the second week. [It is further estimated that] 16 per cent of this latter group would be abnormal and would abort in a week or so


Source: _The Developing Human: Clinically Oriented Embryology (5th Edition)_

(one of the acquisitions on my latest shopping spree)

Now, if you've more recent studies that show this information to be incorrect, present them.





> JBeukema said:
> 
> 
> > There's no room for opinion when it comes to basic scientific facts as when a new lifeform is created via the fusion of two germ cells nto a singular distinct organism.
> ...




No, I don't I've stated repeatedly that it's simply a matter of scientific fact.



> What does that have to do with forcing them to sell it?


You said they had religious objections. They need to speak to their god, since he's a mass murdering abortionist.





> Health departments do provide birth control in the form of condoms.


And, in some cases, also BC, including Plan B. What's your point? That somehow makes my solution invalid?


> Oh, you want the health department to hand out prescription medication to anyone who asks for it, even if they do not have a prescription.




What the fuck are you babbling about? Do cite where I said that, retard.





> Would that include things like morphine, or do you just want to restrict it to drugs that are useful to women? I think I could make a pretty good case that that is discriminatory.


You're making an excellent case for showing you to be mentally deficient.


> JBeukema said:
> 
> 
> > Can we all live with that?
> ...


You're a fucking moron. You are aware of that, right?


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## JBeukema (Jul 15, 2010)

Madeline said:


> Somehow I just can't get that excited about "the store owner's right to refuse to sell something".




So if I choose to sell aspirin but not prescription drugs? If I don't carry opiates because the are of town in which I do business has a lot of pharmaceutical theft, and I instead tell people where they can purchase it?

Should every store be forced to sell everything?


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## Luissa (Jul 15, 2010)

I bet they have no problem selling viagra.


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## FA_Q2 (Jul 15, 2010)

This is NOT a thread about abortion, if you want to cover that open a new thread and pleas stop hijacking this one.  This thread is about pharmacists being forced to sell a specific product.


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## JBeukema (Jul 15, 2010)

Luissa said:


> I bet they have no problem selling viagra.




Or any other drugs that interfere with 'god's will' and ignore the bible's teachings on the laying of hands and such.

But we digress.


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## Madeline (Jul 15, 2010)

JBeukema said:


> Madeline said:
> 
> 
> > Somehow I just can't get that excited about "the store owner's right to refuse to sell something".
> ...



JB, if you don't sell prescription drugs you are not running a pharmacy.  You're being especially obtuse tonight.


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## FA_Q2 (Jul 15, 2010)

Madeline said:


> Some national chains of drugstores have shown hesitancy to sell Plan B out of fear of retaliation from anti-abortion activitists.  Allowing a drug store to tell a patient with a valid script they will not fill it because of a POV about that patient's life, lifestyle, etc. seems contrary to the role of the pharmacist in the health care team.
> 
> My own feeling is if a filled prescription for Plan B is that difficult for a pharmacist he or she has doubtless faced other ethical dilemmas before...and maybe pharmacy is not the right career for them.  In some communities, at certain times, these drug stores are filling scripts handed out by ERs to rape victims.  Somehow I just can't get that excited about "the store owner's right to refuse to sell something".



I have to ask why the right of the pharmacist and the rights of the individual that owns the business is inconsequential to the right of the customer.  The business owner is stuck where the customer can go down the street and get their prescription at another location.  I see no valid reason to require any business to sell specific products.  A business chooses what they wish to sell and a pharmacy should be no different.


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## JBeukema (Jul 15, 2010)

Madeline said:


> JBeukema said:
> 
> 
> > Madeline said:
> ...




So everyone should be forced to have a pharmacy?


Your words:

  Somehow I  just can't get that excited about "the store owner's right to refuse to  sell something".


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## Madeline (Jul 15, 2010)

Well, I don't think you can compare a pharmacy to a shoe store, FAQ2.  I don't pretend to know all that much about drugs, but the only instance I can think of where a pharmacist should be injecting himself into the patient-doctor relationship is one in which he believes the doctor might be unaware the patient is seeing 6 other doctors or the script is in error.  The script is given after a medical consultation and his only role in that is to fill it accurately.

I'm sure the professionals in this field handle many thorny ethical dilemmas, like filling erectile dysfunction drug scripts for AIDS patients.  Someone who grieves over the life choices of every customer should find less taxing work...not usurp the doctor's right to prescribe, or the patient's to seek medical care.


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## Flopper (Jul 15, 2010)

FA_Q2 said:


> A new law here in Washington forces pharmacies to carry and sell the Plan B pill.  Owners of several pharmacies have filed lawsuit based on the freedom of religion claiming that Plan B is against their beliefs and they refuse to sell the contraceptive.  Lawmakers are contemplating changing the law to read that they do not have to carry Plan B if they refer customers to a nearby store that does sell the pill.
> 
> I wonder what the take on this concept is here.  I am somewhat taken aback by this as I would have thought that it would naturally be the right of the business owner to decide what he or she sells.  What right does the state have to mandate that a particular business sells anything.  I understand regulation and placing limitations on items that a business is allowed to sell but forcing one to sell something seems over the top.  What are your thoughts?
> 
> ...


*It's just the abortion issue.  In Washington a pharmacist must sell Plan B, in Missouri they can refuse.  In some places pharmacists have refused to sell other forms of birth control.

I can see where this discussion is going.*


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## JBeukema (Jul 15, 2010)

> The script  is given after a medical consultation and his only role in that is to  fill it accurately.



Should he choose to sell the drug in question, sure.

In fact, many pharmacies don't carry everything. The local drug store  didn't have one of my prescriptions once. They told me of a nearby shoppe that might carry it.

Their loss.



> Someone who grieves over the life choices of every  customer should find less taxing work...not usurp the doctor's right to  prescribe, or the patient's to seek medical care.



How are they usurping either? My not selling steak at my restaurant doesn't usurp your right to buy steak- you just have to go elsewhere. Same principle applies here.


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## FA_Q2 (Jul 15, 2010)

Madeline said:


> Well, I don't think you can compare a pharmacy to a shoe store, FAQ2.  I don't pretend to know all that much about drugs, but the only instance I can think of where a pharmacist should be injecting himself into the patient-doctor relationship is one in which he believes the doctor might be unaware the patient is seeing 6 other doctors or the script is in error.  The script is given after a medical consultation and his only role in that is to fill it accurately.
> 
> I'm sure the professionals in this field handle many thorny ethical dilemmas, like filling erectile dysfunction drug scripts for AIDS patients.  Someone who grieves over the life choices of every customer should find less taxing work...not usurp the doctor's right to prescribe, or the patient's to seek medical care.



How are they getting in-between the doctor and patient?  They are in no way interfering with your medications, they are simply not selling certain ones.  Should I demand that because my son has cancer that ALL pharmacies dispense chemotherapy drugs so I do not have to go all the way to the hospital to pick them up?  Of course not, that would be an overbearing demand on my part and an unreasonable requirement for a pharmacy to meet.  Why is BC any different?  Why is it that a pregnant woman gets consideration over a severely ill child?  Face it, freedom is a 2 way street, you cannot limit someone's freedom to meet your own needs out of convenience.  If they want the medication then go to another vendor.


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## Quantum Windbag (Jul 15, 2010)

JBeukema said:


> Really, you think every fertilized egg implants?



Only an idiot would think that an honest question means someone believes the opposite. Deos this mean you are an idiot?

Never mind, I forgot, you are the one who believes in telepathy. Of course you are an idiot.



JBeukema said:


> NEJM -- Embryo Ethics -- The Moral Logic of Stem-Cell Research
> 
> John M. Opitz of the University of Utah testified  before the President's council on Bioethics in 2003, he noted that  between 60 and 80 percent of all naturally conceived embryos are simply  flushed out in a woman's normal menstrual cycle in the first 7 days  after fertilization, and that women never even know that conception has  taken place.
> 
> ...



I wonder how they came up with those figures? Are they actually based on some type of study on healthy women, on a study of women who are having trouble concieving, or are they simply pulled out of the air? Do you have some sort of peer reviewed study I can look at, or is all your supporting evidence anecdoctal?



JBeukema said:


> Now, if you've more recent studies that show this information to be incorrect, present them.



Don't you have to provide some wort of study before I have to refute it? So far all you have done is quoted one person who is testifying in an attempt to justify stem cell research because nature wastes a lot of embryos, without providing any documentation of his claim.



JBeukema said:


> No, I don't I've stated repeatedly that it's simply a matter of scientific fact.



Like the "scientific fact" that coma patients communicate telepathically?



JBeukema said:


> You said they had religious objections. They need to speak to their god, since he's a mass murdering abortionist.And, in some cases, also BC, including Plan B. What's your point? That somehow makes my solution invalid?[



I did not.



JBeukema said:


> What the fuck are you babbling about? Do cite where I said that, retard.You're making an excellent case for showing you to be mentally deficient.



Birth control is a prescription medication, and there are some very serious side effects from using it.



JBeukema said:


> You're a fucking moron. You are aware of that, right?



I'm not the one who believes in telepathy.


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## JBeukema (Jul 15, 2010)

FA, your thoughts on my earlier proposal?


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## Quantum Windbag (Jul 15, 2010)

JBeukema said:


> Luissa said:
> 
> 
> > I bet they have no problem selling viagra.
> ...



That tends to happen when idiots speak, which is why you should stay out of all serious threads.


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## FA_Q2 (Jul 15, 2010)

Flopper said:


> FA_Q2 said:
> 
> 
> > A new law here in Washington forces pharmacies to carry and sell the Plan B pill.  Owners of several pharmacies have filed lawsuit based on the freedom of religion claiming that Plan B is against their beliefs and they refuse to sell the contraceptive.  Lawmakers are contemplating changing the law to read that they do not have to carry Plan B if they refer customers to a nearby store that does sell the pill.
> ...



No, it goes beyond that issue as they are requiring people to sell a specific product.  The abortion issue gives this product a fanatical following to defend it (as well as fanatical opposition) but it still amounts to a requirement to sell a specific product.  IMO, I could care less about the reasoning or the product, a store has the right to sell and not to sell whatever it pleases.


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## JBeukema (Jul 15, 2010)

> Don't you have to provide some wort of study before I have to refute it?  So far all you have done is quoted one person who is testifying in an  attempt to justify stem cell research because nature wastes a lot of  embryos, without providing any documentation of his claim.




fail.

Actually, I quoted a textbook that got its figures from 3 different studies and cited the book.

Now, you deny that nature prevents implantation, which means you're asserting that all fertilized eggs implant. Present your evidence.


And what the fuck is your obsession with telepathy?



> Birth control is a prescription medication, and there are some very  serious side effects from using it.



Your point?


> I'm not the one who believes in telepathy.




Evidently so, since you're the only one of the two off us who's ever brought it up.


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## JBeukema (Jul 15, 2010)

Quantum Windbag said:


> JBeukema said:
> 
> 
> > Luissa said:
> ...





Clearly, you're retarded. You think ever single fertilized egg ever in the history of man has implanted unless Plan B was used and you're obsessed with telepathy. That combined with your total reliance on pathetic ad homs reveals your  total inability to make a valid point.


I'll waste no more time on you.


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## JBeukema (Jul 15, 2010)

FA_Q2 said:


> a store has the right to sell and not to sell whatever it pleases.


So long as the product is legal and they are licensed to sell it, if applicable.


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## Quantum Windbag (Jul 15, 2010)

JBeukema said:


> > Don't you have to provide some wort of study before I have to refute it?  So far all you have done is quoted one person who is testifying in an  attempt to justify stem cell research because nature wastes a lot of  embryos, without providing any documentation of his claim.
> 
> 
> fail.
> ...



Good try.

You cited a NEJM article that was cited by other articles. If you want to cite a text book you will have to provide something more than you did. What are the articles and/or studies this conclusion is based upon? Until you supply some sort of evidence I do not have to refute anything. All I have to do is point out that your claims are based on unsubstantiated opinion. Show me some data.


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## FA_Q2 (Jul 15, 2010)

JBeukema said:


> FA, your thoughts on my earlier proposal?



I assume you are referring to this post:


> Solution: tell the gov to STFU and let business chose whether or not to sell a given product. Allow those who sell BC, including Plan B to add their name a list if they wish and require that is a pharmacy does not sell prophylactics/BC, they provide the address and phone number for the Health Department an/or a list of those pharmacies who requested their name be added to the list. Allow the Health Department (or whatever department thereof) to make BC available to those in need.
> 
> 
> Where I live, the Health Department has a Department of Family Planning and Women's Health that makes condoms available. This same department can be set up in the city in question and tasked with also providing BC or, if more feasible, guiding those in need to where they might acquire such resources.
> ...


If you are, then yes we are in complete agreement.  There is on KEY that I would like to point out about what you said:  all parties in that solution are given the choice on what they wish to do.  A pharmacy should be required to direct you to the health department or FDA if you have questions anyway that they cannot attend to as that is the governing body there.  Keeping a voluntary list that doubles as advertisement for those that realize there is nothing wrong with plan b, or any other legal drug for that matter, is an amicable solution that benefits ALL parties involved.  


> So long as the product is legal and they are licensed to sell it, if applicable.


Of course.  Thought that went without saying but then again with some of the people here....


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## JBeukema (Jul 15, 2010)

Quantum Windbag said:


> Good try.
> 
> You cited a NEJM article that was cited by other articles. If you want to cite a text book you will have to provide something more than you did.



Or you could learn to fucking read


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## Sarah G (Jul 15, 2010)

Madeline said:


> JBeukema said:
> 
> 
> > Madeline said:
> ...



This pill is OTC medication, not prescription, but it's held in the pharmacy.  Pharmacists who object to selling it should get out of the business.  They don't need to bring religious beliefs to work and attempt to impose them on pharmacy patients.

Soon they'll try to control what their employer sells and simply be fired.  

They dispense drugs, they're not there to provide moral advice.


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## Madeline (Jul 15, 2010)

Plan B is not a prescription drug?


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## Brubricker (Jul 15, 2010)

Madeline said:


> Plan B is not a prescription drug?



Minors need a prescription. Adults do not.


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## Flopper (Jul 15, 2010)

FA_Q2 said:


> Flopper said:
> 
> 
> > FA_Q2 said:
> ...


*I believe the obligation of the pharmacist is too fill the doctor's prescription.  The pharmacist should not have the option of denying the patient a drug that the doctor has prescribed because of personal beliefs.  If the pharmacist can deny Plan B, because of his personal beliefs, he can refuse to sell any drug for any of a number of reasons.  In small rural communities there are not a lot of drug stores to choose from.  If one drug store in a community refuses to sell a drug then others can also.   Being a pharmacist is not like selling shoes where the seller can pick and choose what he wants to sell.
*


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## Sarah G (Jul 15, 2010)

Madeline said:


> Plan B is not a prescription drug?




No.  These pharmacists don't even have to touch it.  Birth control pills shouldn't require a script either.

You have to be 17 or older to buy it.


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## Sarah G (Jul 15, 2010)

The RU-486 pill is the abortion drug.  Not the same thing as Plan B.


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## Madeline (Jul 15, 2010)

Thankies, Sarah.  I think I was confusing the two.


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## jillian (Jul 15, 2010)

FA_Q2 said:


> A new law here in Washington forces pharmacies to carry and sell the Plan B pill.  Owners of several pharmacies have filed lawsuit based on the freedom of religion claiming that Plan B is against their beliefs and they refuse to sell the contraceptive.  Lawmakers are contemplating changing the law to read that they do not have to carry Plan B if they refer customers to a nearby store that does sell the pill.
> 
> I wonder what the take on this concept is here.  I am somewhat taken aback by this as I would have thought that it would naturally be the right of the business owner to decide what he or she sells.  What right does the state have to mandate that a particular business sells anything.  I understand regulation and placing limitations on items that a business is allowed to sell but forcing one to sell something seems over the top.  What are your thoughts?
> 
> ...



they could decide not to be pharmacists if carrying pharmaceuticals upsets them.


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## Charles_Main (Jul 15, 2010)

FA_Q2 said:


> xotoxi said:
> 
> 
> > I wonder if those pharmacists that are so pissed carry regular birth control pills.
> ...




They Equate it as playing god. So they say.


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## LuckyDan (Jul 15, 2010)

jillian said:


> FA_Q2 said:
> 
> 
> > A new law here in Washington forces pharmacies to carry and sell the Plan B pill. Owners of several pharmacies have filed lawsuit based on the freedom of religion claiming that Plan B is against their beliefs and they refuse to sell the contraceptive. Lawmakers are contemplating changing the law to read that they do not have to carry Plan B if they refer customers to a nearby store that does sell the pill.
> ...


 
Better, stop being pharmacists in WA state. Pack up and move.


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## Quantum Windbag (Jul 15, 2010)

JBeukema said:


> Quantum Windbag said:
> 
> 
> > Good try.
> ...



Like I said, if you want to cite a textbook you will have to provide more. Either of the following will do.

Purdue OWL

MLA Citation Style


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## FA_Q2 (Jul 16, 2010)

Sarah G said:


> Madeline said:
> 
> 
> > JBeukema said:
> ...



Your way off Sarah - it is the owners that are limiting the sales as is their right.  If an employee will not sell a specific medication they must be up front before they are hired or I see no reason they should not be fired for refusing to do the job they were hired for.  Of course they will likely file suit claiming breach of religion but that is not the topic here.  Why do you think a business owner should be required to sell a product?


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## FA_Q2 (Jul 16, 2010)

Flopper said:


> FA_Q2 said:
> 
> 
> > Flopper said:
> ...



Why are they obligated to do anything?  It is a private business.  Where do we get off demanding a business carry specific drugs for our convenience.  Why is it that you seem to believe that the plan b MUST be carried by local pharmacies yet they are allowed and quite frequently refuse to carry the myriad of drugs that we require.  In my case it is a matter of life and death!  Should I petition for the same treatment for my medications?


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## JBeukema (Jul 16, 2010)

Flopper said:


> *  Being a pharmacist is not like selling shoes where the seller can pick and choose what he wants to sell.
> *



Why not?

They're a private company. Why shouldn't they be able to decide whether they wish to sell condoms, trident gum, Red Vines, or any other given product?

So far we've all called for the Health Department making BC available, and I''m sure few would have any reasonable objection to hospitals making Plan B available.


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## JBeukema (Jul 16, 2010)

Sarah G said:


> The RU-486 pill is the abortion drug.  Not the same thing as Plan B.




Is RU-486 still available for purchase in the U.S.?


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## JBeukema (Jul 16, 2010)

jillian said:


> FA_Q2 said:
> 
> 
> > A new law here in Washington forces pharmacies to carry and sell the Plan B pill.  Owners of several pharmacies have filed lawsuit based on the freedom of religion claiming that Plan B is against their beliefs and they refuse to sell the contraceptive.  Lawmakers are contemplating changing the law to read that they do not have to carry Plan B if they refer customers to a nearby store that does sell the pill.
> ...




So if I sell Beefeater, I should be forced to sell Skyy?


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## JBeukema (Jul 16, 2010)

Quantum Windbag said:


> JBeukema said:
> 
> 
> > Quantum Windbag said:
> ...




If you're too stupid to know how to Google a book title and find information on the text, that's your problem.


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## Sarah G (Jul 16, 2010)

JBeukema said:


> Sarah G said:
> 
> 
> > The RU-486 pill is the abortion drug.  Not the same thing as Plan B.
> ...



I think so.  It is considered the same thing as an abortion, you take it in your doctor's office and go home but if it doesn't work, the doc has to be committed enough to do the surgical alternative.

I've never known anyone who has taken it but I found a lot of info online after seeing this thread.  

It costs $300-500.  Very expensive when you could easily use contraception beforehand.  I think I saw Plan B was around $40.  That doesn't work if you're already pregnant tho.


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## Sarah G (Jul 16, 2010)

FA_Q2 said:


> Sarah G said:
> 
> 
> > Madeline said:
> ...



Their job is to dispense drugs, not to judge the patient.  YOU are way off trying to make people believe that Plan B and the abortion drug are one and the same.  Do you also think a pharmacist should have a choice about whether to dispense BC pills or condoms?

Arm yourself with information before posting that way you won't look dumb.


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## Screaming Eagle (Jul 16, 2010)

Sarah G said:


> FA_Q2 said:
> 
> 
> > Sarah G said:
> ...



What if they don't carry your brand of toilet paper, should Congress pass a law requiring it?


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## chanel (Jul 16, 2010)

Exactly. Our pediatrician recommended a cough syrup that they didn't carry at the Acme. I had to get at CVS. Who can I sue?


----------



## Mr. Shaman (Jul 16, 2010)

FA_Q2 said:


> xotoxi said:
> 
> 
> > I wonder if those pharmacists that are so pissed carry regular birth control pills.
> ...


*Bullshit*.

You *"moralists"* *STILL don't* get to _rewrite_ science.

​


> "A woman *does not become pregnant immediately after having unprotected sex* because *the biological process takes several days*. EBC prevents pregnancy by working during the period of time after a woman has unprotected sex and *before she actually becomes pregnant**.*"


----------



## Mr. Shaman (Jul 16, 2010)

FA_Q2 said:


> Madeline said:
> 
> 
> > Well, I don't think you can compare a pharmacy to a shoe store, FAQ2.  I don't pretend to know all that much about drugs, but the only instance I can think of where a pharmacist should be injecting himself into the patient-doctor relationship is one in which he believes the doctor might be unaware the patient is seeing 6 other doctors or the script is in error.  The script is given after a medical consultation and his only role in that is to fill it accurately.
> ...


'Cause _too_-many of them *STILL* remember how *counter*-productive _barefoot/pregnant_ & *IGNORANT* was*???????*

​


----------



## Sarah G (Jul 16, 2010)

Screaming Eagle said:


> Sarah G said:
> 
> 
> > FA_Q2 said:
> ...



The Pharmacist is not necessarily the owner of the pharmacy.  The law had to do with a pharmacist objecting to selling the Plan B pill, not whether they had it in stock.


----------



## FA_Q2 (Jul 16, 2010)

Sarah G said:


> FA_Q2 said:
> 
> 
> > Sarah G said:
> ...



?? Try arming yourself first.  I never stated any such thing.  Quit making up things as you go along.


----------



## FA_Q2 (Jul 16, 2010)

Sarah G said:


> The Pharmacist is not necessarily the owner of the pharmacy.  The law had to do with a pharmacist objecting to selling the Plan B pill, not whether they had it in stock.



!!!!!
FROM THE SECOND SENTENCE IN THE LINKED ARTICLE.


> In a case that could affect policy across the western U.S., a supermarket pharmacy *owner *in Olympia, Wash., failed in a bid to block 2007 regulations that required* all Washington pharmacies to stock *and dispense the pills.


And you are the one that stated:


> Arm yourself with information before posting that way you won't look dumb.


Try and at least understand what you are arguing against in the first place.  MAJOR FAIL Sarah.  If you can't even bother to read the article don't come here making shit up.


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## topspin (Jul 16, 2010)

Fire the pharmacist after you kick his ass. Fuck his religion


----------



## Mr. Shaman (Jul 16, 2010)

FA_Q2 said:


> Sarah G said:
> 
> 
> > FA_Q2 said:
> ...



Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.....so....​


> "Plan B does not allow the egg to implant in the wall *AFTER* fertilization, the point at which *many* feel life begins at."



.....you don't (*officially*) count yourself as *one-o'-many*.....so as to *avoid* any _risk_ o' defending such a theocratic-agenda....right?



(Being out-numbered surely-does *seem* to *dilute* you *"conservatives'"* _righteousness_.  )​


----------



## Sarah G (Jul 16, 2010)

FA_Q2 said:


> A new law here in Washington forces pharmacies to carry and sell the Plan B pill.  Owners of several pharmacies have filed lawsuit based on the freedom of religion claiming that Plan B is against their beliefs and they refuse to sell the contraceptive.  Lawmakers are contemplating changing the law to read that they do not have to carry Plan B if they refer customers to a nearby store that does sell the pill.
> 
> I wonder what the take on this concept is here.  I am somewhat taken aback by this as I would have thought that it would naturally be the right of the business owner to decide what he or she sells.  What right does the state have to mandate that a particular business sells anything.  I understand regulation and placing limitations on items that a business is allowed to sell but forcing one to sell something seems over the top.  What are your thoughts?
> 
> ...



You and these pharmacists who sued that they shouldn't have to dispense on religious grounds are attempting to portray the Plan B drug as being the same thing as RU-486 and it is not.  



> *Pharmacists are obliged to dispense the Plan B pill, even if they are personally opposed to the "morning after" contraceptive on religious grounds*, a federal appeals court ruled Wednesday.
> 
> In a case that could affect policy across the western U.S., a supermarket pharmacy owner in Olympia, Wash., failed in a bid to block 2007 regulations that required all Washington pharmacies to stock and dispense the pills.



The sources I looked at last night said that you should call ahead first to see whether they have the drug in stock.  I don't believe they have to stock the drug if they can give you the name of a pharmacy who does stock it.

This is not rocket science.  If they carry birth control pills and hand them to the customer and it doesn't go against their religious beliefs, the Plan B pill should not go against their beliefs either.  As someone stated earlier, you could take a handful of BC pills and get the same affect as they both have the same contraceptive make up.     

The RU-486 drug actually aborts the pregnancy.  The pharmacists do not sell this drug directly to the customer, the doctor gives the drug to the patient.

You are making a mistake if you think that Plan B and RU-486 are the same drug and I get the impression from your post that this is what you are doing.


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## Flopper (Jul 16, 2010)

JBeukema said:


> Flopper said:
> 
> 
> > *  Being a pharmacist is not like selling shoes where the seller can pick and choose what he wants to sell.
> ...


*It's a violation of the state licensing rules.  Also the court ruled a patient's right to timely medication supersedes a pharmacist's personal convictions.*


----------



## Sarah G (Jul 16, 2010)

JBeukema said:


> Flopper said:
> 
> 
> > *  Being a pharmacist is not like selling shoes where the seller can pick and choose what he wants to sell.
> ...



When you're ready to take Plan B, you have a very short window of time.  That is one reason they don't require a prescription, you don't have time to get one from your doc say on a weekend.


----------



## Soggy in NOLA (Jul 16, 2010)

FA_Q2 said:


> A new law here in Washington forces pharmacies to carry and sell the Plan B pill.  Owners of several pharmacies have filed lawsuit based on the freedom of religion claiming that Plan B is against their beliefs and they refuse to sell the contraceptive.  Lawmakers are contemplating changing the law to read that they do not have to carry Plan B if they refer customers to a nearby store that does sell the pill.
> 
> I wonder what the take on this concept is here.  I am somewhat taken aback by this as I would have thought that it would naturally be the right of the business owner to decide what he or she sells.  What right does the state have to mandate that a particular business sells anything.  I understand regulation and placing limitations on items that a business is allowed to sell but forcing one to sell something seems over the top.  What are your thoughts?
> 
> ...



The Statists are in charge.. you can do whatever they say you can do.  Buh bye Constitution.


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## topspin (Jul 16, 2010)

Whambulance


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## Immanuel (Jul 16, 2010)

FA_Q2 said:


> A new law here in Washington forces pharmacies to carry and sell the Plan B pill.  Owners of several pharmacies have filed lawsuit based on the freedom of religion claiming that Plan B is against their beliefs and they refuse to sell the contraceptive.  Lawmakers are contemplating changing the law to read that they do not have to carry Plan B if they refer customers to a nearby store that does sell the pill.
> 
> I wonder what the take on this concept is here.  I am somewhat taken aback by this as I would have thought that it would naturally be the right of the business owner to decide what he or she sells.  What right does the state have to mandate that a particular business sells anything.  I understand regulation and placing limitations on items that a business is allowed to sell but forcing one to sell something seems over the top.  What are your thoughts?
> 
> ...



Maybe this has been mentioned as I have not read the entire thread, but here is how I would deal with this issue.

"I'm sorry, I am out of stock at the moment and do not know how long it will be before I receive my next shipment."

Every time someone entered my store, they would get the same reply.

The government cannot force me to stock items I do not care to stock.

Immie


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## CurveLight (Jul 16, 2010)

If Pharms don't want public responsibility they need to find a new profession.  It is not up to them to control others' live through their own self righteous glass gavels.


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## topspin (Jul 16, 2010)

I'd be fine with an asshole deciding not to stock thouands of drugs.


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## Immanuel (Jul 16, 2010)

Flopper said:


> FA_Q2 said:
> 
> 
> > Flopper said:
> ...



If a pharmacists refuses to sell what its customers need or want they will go out of business.  In your highly unlikely scenario, customers will go to the next town over if they want a product offered there and they will refuse to do business with the one in town.  Eventually, that one will go out of business or another one will move into town and put him out of business.

Immie


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## Immanuel (Jul 16, 2010)

Flopper said:


> FA_Q2 said:
> 
> 
> > Flopper said:
> ...



Something else to consider here.

If the drug costs me $5/dosage to buy from the manufacturer and the market rate that I can sell it for is $3 why should I have to sell the product?  It costs me capital to hold product that I cannot sell.

Immie


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## Contumacious (Jul 16, 2010)

CurveLight said:


> If Pharms don't want public responsibility they need to find a new profession.  It is not up to them to control others' live through their own self righteous glass gavels.



The Plan B medication is an excellent idea. 

Nevertheless, the governments in these US have no authority to force pharmacists to carry or dispense it.

.


----------



## Immanuel (Jul 16, 2010)

Sarah G said:


> Screaming Eagle said:
> 
> 
> > Sarah G said:
> ...



If you are talking about the employee of the pharmacy that is a different manner.  I think those of us on the opposite side from your point of view are looking at it as the owner of the pharmacy.  I know that is how I see it.

If I am the employee of the pharmacy and I don't want to sell product that the owner wants to sell, then I can always quit and go elsewhere.  I work for the employer.  He/she does not work for me.

Immie


----------



## CurveLight (Jul 16, 2010)

Immanuel said:


> FA_Q2 said:
> 
> 
> > A new law here in Washington forces pharmacies to carry and sell the Plan B pill.  Owners of several pharmacies have filed lawsuit based on the freedom of religion claiming that Plan B is against their beliefs and they refuse to sell the contraceptive.  Lawmakers are contemplating changing the law to read that they do not have to carry Plan B if they refer customers to a nearby store that does sell the pill.
> ...




I'm the kind of asshole that would stand in front of your store with a sign that reads:

"Woman Hating Pharmacy"


----------



## Immanuel (Jul 16, 2010)

CurveLight said:


> Immanuel said:
> 
> 
> > FA_Q2 said:
> ...



That would be okay with me.  You'd grow up and get tired of it eventually.  

Immie


----------



## CurveLight (Jul 16, 2010)

Immanuel said:


> Sarah G said:
> 
> 
> > Screaming Eagle said:
> ...




Since it is an emergency medication it should be a mandated item.  On what basis do you justify denying a rape victim the opportunity to prevent conception from her monster attacker?


----------



## CurveLight (Jul 16, 2010)

Immanuel said:


> CurveLight said:
> 
> 
> > Immanuel said:
> ...



You're the one who wants to have some control over womens' bodies but I'm the one that needs to grow up?


----------



## Immanuel (Jul 16, 2010)

CurveLight said:


> Immanuel said:
> 
> 
> > Sarah G said:
> ...



On the grounds that this is still a free country and I still despite politicians of both ilks attempting to take away my freedoms, as a business owner have the right to decide what products I want to stock.  I have the right to decide it I can afford to carry such product.

You know if it comes out that Plan B has certain unknown risks associated with it, Pharmacies may be held just as liable as the manufacturer by a court.

edit: and for the record, I have not said that I would not carry it.  I would have to do more research on it.

Immie


----------



## Immanuel (Jul 16, 2010)

CurveLight said:


> Immanuel said:
> 
> 
> > CurveLight said:
> ...



That is absolutely not true.  In fact, it is downright deceptive of you to even imply that.  

I simply stated that it is my business and I have the right to decide what products I carry.

Immie


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## Contumacious (Jul 16, 2010)

CurveLight said:


> Immanuel said:
> 
> 
> > Sarah G said:
> ...



Bullshit.
*
The medication is effective if taken within 72 hours - 3 days - from the encounter. It doesn't take 3 days to find a friendly pharmacist.*

.


----------



## Sarah G (Jul 16, 2010)

Immanuel said:


> Sarah G said:
> 
> 
> > Screaming Eagle said:
> ...



Well if the owner is selling birth control pills, he should have no objection to Plan B.  If the owner is not selling birth control pills, he's a terrible business owner.


----------



## WillowTree (Jul 16, 2010)

FA_Q2 said:


> A new law here in Washington forces pharmacies to carry and sell the Plan B pill.  Owners of several pharmacies have filed lawsuit based on the freedom of religion claiming that Plan B is against their beliefs and they refuse to sell the contraceptive.  Lawmakers are contemplating changing the law to read that they do not have to carry Plan B if they refer customers to a nearby store that does sell the pill.
> 
> I wonder what the take on this concept is here.  I am somewhat taken aback by this as I would have thought that it would naturally be the right of the business owner to decide what he or she sells.  What right does the state have to mandate that a particular business sells anything.  I understand regulation and placing limitations on items that a business is allowed to sell but forcing one to sell something seems over the top.  What are your thoughts?
> 
> ...



I'd just put em in a candy dish and label it free for all welfare queens!


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## Gadawg73 (Jul 16, 2010)

If you are at the government tit as pharmacists then you must obey the rules of who has the tit.


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## Sarah G (Jul 16, 2010)

Contumacious said:


> CurveLight said:
> 
> 
> > Immanuel said:
> ...



Omg, you all are really crazy..  

Up to 72 hours.  Obviously the sooner the better.  They aren't saying wait 72 hours then take it.


----------



## Sarah G (Jul 16, 2010)

Gadawg73 said:


> If you are at the government tit as pharmacists then you must obey the rules of who has the tit.



Jeezus, they make $60 an hour and up, you'd think they could get just a little cooperative.


----------



## Immanuel (Jul 16, 2010)

Sarah G said:


> Immanuel said:
> 
> 
> > Sarah G said:
> ...



I'd say that really depends.

Is he serving his community?  Is he providing them what they want?  If so then I would say he's probably a pretty good business owner.

He should not be required to carry all products.  If he does not feel he can make a profit on a particular item he should not be required to carry it.  If he does not feel comfortable selling a product for any reason then he should not be required to sell it.  If he has a reason for not doing so, then let him justify that to his customers.  If they don't like his reasons, they are free to go elsewhere.  If he made a bad decision and loses business then it is up to him to correct that.

Immie


----------



## manifold (Jul 16, 2010)

xotoxi said:


> So, in essense, they would have to refuse to carry ALL BCPs if they wanted to have a clear conscience.



Speculating about what others must do to keep a clear conscience? 

Seems a bit arrogant don't you think?


----------



## CurveLight (Jul 16, 2010)

Contumacious said:


> CurveLight said:
> 
> 
> > Immanuel said:
> ...




Emergency Contraception (Morning After Pill) - Planned Parenthood
Emergency Contraception (Morning After Pill) - Planned Parenthood

Emergency Contraception 
Plan B, the one-step Emergency Contraception (EC) Pill
Emergency Contraception

Sucks to be wrong like you.


----------



## Contumacious (Jul 16, 2010)

Gadawg73 said:


> If you are at the government tit as pharmacists then you must obey the rules of who has the tit.



Well, you have a point there. If the pharmacists have sought government assistance in order to secure their trade - in order to acquire certain government privileges then they are at their mercy. That is the price of Faustian bargains.

.


----------



## Contumacious (Jul 16, 2010)

Sarah G said:


> Contumacious said:
> 
> 
> > CurveLight said:
> ...



No, you are.

Are you fucking telling me that you can not find a friendly pharmacist in 72 hours. That you like the thrill of imposing your views on others.

If Pharmacy "A" won't sell them to you then move on to the next.

Jeeeesus fucking christ.

.


----------



## CurveLight (Jul 16, 2010)

Immanuel said:


> CurveLight said:
> 
> 
> > Immanuel said:
> ...



Plan B is not an abortion pill and it doesn't whack a conception that has already taken place.  It simply works to prevent conception.

It isn't taking away your freedoms to provide equal treatment services just like it isn't taking away a racist's freedom to mandate no "Whites Only" tables exist.  If you wish to enter the public arena and benefit from it then you should be prepared to respect it instead of whining about "freedoms" as a transparent red herring.


----------



## CurveLight (Jul 16, 2010)

Contumacious said:


> Sarah G said:
> 
> 
> > Contumacious said:
> ...



Oh boy.  Another King Kong sized dumbass.  Pharms denying the emergency medication are the ones guilty of "imposing views" because they are forcing the results of their moral code onto others.

It's not like women would go in and demand the Pharmacist take the pill you fucking depleted einstein.


----------



## Contumacious (Jul 16, 2010)

CurveLight said:


> Immanuel said:
> 
> 
> > CurveLight said:
> ...




Yes, it is taking individuals' freedoms away.

Americans have the ABSOLUTE RIGHT to associate with those who THEY choose.

The welfare/warfare state gets away with murder because it has standing armies and a penchant for violence.

.


----------



## Contumacious (Jul 16, 2010)

CurveLight said:


> Contumacious said:
> 
> 
> > Sarah G said:
> ...



Excuse me fucktard,

why do pharmacists owe you an obligation to provide "emergency" medication.  If you have a fucking contract with the XYZ Pharmacy and they refused to provide  medication as agreed upon then sue them. Otherwise they don't have to sell you anything.

Move to Cuba, you low life son-of-a-bitch.

.


----------



## Immanuel (Jul 16, 2010)

Contumacious said:


> Sarah G said:
> 
> 
> > Contumacious said:
> ...



I would suggest that anyone who wants to purchase Plan B that used a pharmacy that does not offer it, find one near by and then purchase however many doses of it, they think they might need before coming back to that pharmacy and stock their own.



CurveLight said:


> Immanuel said:
> 
> 
> > CurveLight said:
> ...



1) I think if you were actually reading what I have said, you would not have made that first comment.  I did not say I would not stock it.  I stated that I would research it more before I did.

2) You and I will always disagree on the second paragraph here.  I respect your beliefs, but I do think you are wrong about it not taking away my freedoms.  I believe in a merchant's right to choose what he or she wants to stock.  I am opposed to the government's interference in that choice.

It appears to me by your last sentence that you believe you have the right to decide what a merchant does and does not stock.  Sorry, I will never agree with that.

Immie


----------



## CurveLight (Jul 16, 2010)

Immanuel said:


> 1) I think if you were actually reading what I have said, you would not have made that first comment.  I did not say I would not stock it.  I stated that I would research it more before I did.
> 
> 2) You and I will always disagree on the second paragraph here.  I respect your beliefs, but I do think you are wrong about it not taking away my freedoms.  I believe in a merchant's right to choose what he or she wants to stock.  I am opposed to the government's interference in that choice.
> 
> ...




I have been reading what you said:

(Posted by Immie)

"Maybe this has been mentioned as I have not read the entire thread, but here is how I would deal with this issue.

"I'm sorry, I am out of stock at the moment and do not know how long it will be before I receive my next shipment."

Every time someone entered my store, they would get the same reply.

The government cannot force me to stock items I do not care to stock.

Immie"

We aren't talking about Target stocking blue shoes.  This is not simply a "merchant" but a healthcare provider.  Pharmacies should be forced to stock emergency medications and unlike a normal merchant, the government pays pharmacies through federal taxes such as medicare.


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## ConHog (Jul 16, 2010)

God you people are ridiculous. Why should the government have ANY right to tell me what I can and can't sell? 

I mean take this a step further and the Government could tell the local Toyota dealer that he has to start selling GMs because well just because. 

Who cares what their reasoning is? What's next? Telling Wal Mart they MUST carry pornographic material because well people want access?


----------



## CurveLight (Jul 16, 2010)

ConHog said:


> God you people are ridiculous. Why should the government have ANY right to tell me what I can and can't sell?
> 
> I mean take this a step further and the Government could tell the local Toyota dealer that he has to start selling GMs because well just because.
> 
> Who cares what their reasoning is? What's next? Telling Wal Mart they MUST carry pornographic material because well people want access?



Only a pure fucking moron like you could confuse healthcare and porn.


----------



## CurveLight (Jul 16, 2010)

Ya'll might be shocked but I have a proposal that makes too much sense. The conflict here is the contention between pharms being forced to carry meds and the public having access to emergency pills that are morally questionable. How to resolve thisv

1. Every pharmacist must have a sign stating whether or not they carry plan B.  If they do not carry plan B then have the name/address/phone # of the closest pharms that do. 
(That part is pretty much in the works already)

What about a situation where there are no pharms within 50 square miles that carry plan b?  

2.  In order to provide public access there must be at least one pharmacy within a 50 square mile radius providing plan B.  Ie.  If you have 5 pharmacies and all refuse plan B then force one to carry the pill for one year and allow the other 4 the option to not carry it.  After the one year period has ended the next pharm in line stocks it.

This would avoid forcing all pharms to carry it while also ensuring reasonable public access.


----------



## ConHog (Jul 16, 2010)

CurveLight said:


> ConHog said:
> 
> 
> > God you people are ridiculous. Why should the government have ANY right to tell me what I can and can't sell?
> ...



Only a fucking retard like yourself wouldn't understand the concept of once the government has the right to dictate in one industry nothing is stopping them from doing so in another.


----------



## Immanuel (Jul 16, 2010)

CurveLight said:


> Ya'll might be shocked but I have a proposal that makes too much sense. The conflict here is the contention between pharms being forced to carry meds and the public having access to emergency pills that are morally questionable. How to resolve thisv
> 
> 1. Every pharmacist must have a sign stating whether or not they carry plan B.  If they do not carry plan B then have the name/address/phone # of the closest pharms that do.
> (That part is pretty much in the works already)
> ...



Not exactly something I would jump on board with right away.  We'd have to discuss it some more.

For instance, I would counter why not have the Department of Health in each county provide Plan B if there are no pharmacies around that do?  How about County Hospitals?  Don't they all have pharmacies?

I do, however, appreciate that options are thrown out on the table.  There is nothing that says we can't thrown them onto the table and come to some kind of an agreement even if you did win in the long run.

Immie


----------



## CurveLight (Jul 16, 2010)

ConHog said:


> God you people are ridiculous. Why should the government have ANY right to tell me what I can and can't sell?
> 
> I mean take this a step further and the Government could tell the local Toyota dealer that he has to start selling GMs because well just because.
> 
> Who cares what their reasoning is? What's next? Telling Wal Mart they MUST carry pornographic material because well people want access?





ConHog said:


> CurveLight said:
> 
> 
> > ConHog said:
> ...



You're too stoopid to even know how to properly apply the slippery slope argument.


----------



## Sarah G (Jul 16, 2010)

CurveLight said:


> Ya'll might be shocked but I have a proposal that makes too much sense. The conflict here is the contention between pharms being forced to carry meds and the public having access to emergency pills that are morally questionable. How to resolve thisv
> 
> 1. Every pharmacist must have a sign stating whether or not they carry plan B.  If they do not carry plan B then have the name/address/phone # of the closest pharms that do.
> (That part is pretty much in the works already)
> ...



There are very few pharmacists who refuse to dispense the drug.  These people have extreme religious viewpoints and I don't know of any employer who will put up with someone like that.  

Pharmacists don't make their own rules and pharmacy owners are very small businesses these days.  Retail pharmacy is huge.  You've got to stay competitive and you don't do that by refusing sales.

eod for me.


----------



## CurveLight (Jul 16, 2010)

Immanuel said:


> CurveLight said:
> 
> 
> > Ya'll might be shocked but I have a proposal that makes too much sense. The conflict here is the contention between pharms being forced to carry meds and the public having access to emergency pills that are morally questionable. How to resolve thisv
> ...



Because that is too close to socializing healthcare and pharmacies are much more efficient at medication dispensing which is why pharms and hospitals are different entities to begin with.


----------



## Immanuel (Jul 16, 2010)

CurveLight said:


> Immanuel said:
> 
> 
> > CurveLight said:
> ...



First, let me say I agree with Sarah in post 99.  

My part of this discussion has been regarding the little guy drug store that really no longer exists.  I am not talking about the employee of the chain pharmacy.  I am talking about the independent drug store owners... if there are any that still exist that is.

Second, I completely disagree with your statement about it being to close to socializing medicine.  If that were true, then we should not have county hospitals at all.  

Third, all hospitals that I know of, have pharmacies in them already and will sell to the general public.  In fact, I have had doctors recommend that I go to the pharmacy in the hospital to get what I need rather than to the CVS.  

Immie


----------



## Flopper (Jul 16, 2010)

Immanuel said:


> Flopper said:
> 
> 
> > FA_Q2 said:
> ...


*A pharmacist is state licensed and has obligations to the community unlike most retail businesses.  He can't just carry the most profitable drugs.  There are a number of services that are considered necessary for the health and safety of the community and the providers are not allowed to choose who they will served and what they will sell based on their personal preferences.

The reason the pharmacist refused to sell Plan B was not a financial issue but a personal one.*


----------



## CurveLight (Jul 16, 2010)

Immanuel said:


> CurveLight said:
> 
> 
> > Ya'll might be shocked but I have a proposal that makes too much sense. The conflict here is the contention between pharms being forced to carry meds and the public having access to emergency pills that are morally questionable. How to resolve thisv
> ...





Immanuel said:


> CurveLight said:
> 
> 
> > Immanuel said:
> ...



Counties exist for the indigent and they are not as efficient as privately run pharmacies.  This is all about access and equal treatment. We also aren't talking about normal medication. This is an emergency contraception so time senstive applications obviously merit more consideration.


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## ConHog (Jul 16, 2010)

Is there a town in America which doesn't have a freaking Wal Mart or a Wal Greens? I doubt it and you know they will sell this.

This doesn't have anything to do with access and has everything to do with shoving morals , or lack therof, down someone elses throat.


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## FA_Q2 (Jul 16, 2010)

Mr. Shaman said:


> FA_Q2 said:
> 
> 
> > Sarah G said:
> ...



I have shown my views on abortion several times here.  I support a woman's right to choose through the first trimester and portions of the second.  Just because I do not agree with those that do not support abortion does not mean I do not understand their stance.


----------



## JBeukema (Jul 16, 2010)

Sarah G said:


> FA_Q2 said:
> 
> 
> > Sarah G said:
> ...




They're not judging anyone. They're simply not carrying a given product.

Is Walgreens judging me by choosing to not sell vodka?


----------



## Immanuel (Jul 16, 2010)

Flopper said:


> Immanuel said:
> 
> 
> > Flopper said:
> ...



So you are saying that an architect who is state licensed has certain obligations to the community and must design a brothel in Las Vegas if someone wants to hire him to do it?  How about a Christian CPA?  He is licensed by the state is he required to serve the porn industry?



CurveLight said:


> Immanuel said:
> 
> 
> > CurveLight said:
> ...



I still disagree with you.  

Tell me why a woman who would use Plan B could not purchase it from a pharmacy in another town (if her local pharmacy did not carry it) and store it in her medicine cabinet until it was needed.

Note: I'm not talking about cases of rape, which I thought about as I was typing that paragraph.  That is something I would have to think about and be willing to consider alternatives too.

I still do not like the government forcing business owners in this manner.  

Immie


----------



## FA_Q2 (Jul 16, 2010)

Sarah G said:


> FA_Q2 said:
> 
> 
> > A new law here in Washington forces pharmacies to carry and sell the Plan B pill.  Owners of several pharmacies have filed lawsuit based on the freedom of religion claiming that Plan B is against their beliefs and they refuse to sell the contraceptive.  Lawmakers are contemplating changing the law to read that they do not have to carry Plan B if they refer customers to a nearby store that does sell the pill.
> ...



This is the SECOND time you have placed that argument on me.  I never said that the day after pill was anything like RU-486 and never equated it to abortion.  I did explain why some religious people are against it.  DO NOT continue putting words in my mouth.


----------



## JBeukema (Jul 16, 2010)

FA_Q2 said:


> Sarah G said:
> 
> 
> > The Pharmacist is not necessarily the owner of the pharmacy.  The law had to do with a pharmacist objecting to selling the Plan B pill, not whether they had it in stock.
> ...




that has to sting


----------



## saveliberty (Jul 16, 2010)

Pretty simple.  Just ask the person to come back in an hour to pick it up and then make sure its not ready.  Most people will jsut go somewhere else after two or three times of that.  Paperwork does get missed placed you know.


----------



## topspin (Jul 16, 2010)

That woman should not have to be inconvienienced by a political nut job. Take the morons license away.


----------



## ConHog (Jul 16, 2010)

saveliberty said:


> Pretty simple.  Just ask the person to come back in an hour to pick it up and then make sure its not ready.  Most people will jsut go somewhere else after two or three times of that.  Paperwork does get missed placed you know.



What SHOULD be simple is if a business doesn't carry a product you need or want, fucking shop elsewhere. DUH! This isn't communist Russia where every town has only one store and what they carry is what they carry.


----------



## JBeukema (Jul 16, 2010)

Sarah G said:


> You and these pharmacists who sued that they shouldn't have to dispense on religious grounds are attempting to portray the Plan B drug as being the same thing as RU-486



Cite, please


> .  I don't believe they have to stock the drug if they can give you the name of a pharmacy who does stock it.



So you've renounced your moronic position and and adopted my earlier proposal?





> This is not rocket science.  If they carry birth control pills and hand them to the customer and it doesn't go against their religious beliefs, the Plan B pill should not go against their beliefs either.  As someone stated earlier, you could take a handful of BC pills and get the same affect as they both have the same contraceptive make up.



And? Their ignorance of how the drug works is irrelevant here. They do not wish to sell a given product. That is the end of the story.


----------



## FA_Q2 (Jul 16, 2010)

CurveLight said:


> Immanuel said:
> 
> 
> > 1) I think if you were actually reading what I have said, you would not have made that first comment.  I did not say I would not stock it.  I stated that I would research it more before I did.
> ...


That is backwards thinking.  The pharmacies are not the ones that are sucking off the government tit with Medicare, it is the beneficiaries that are.  The pharmacy is simply supplying the product they are using that money for.  That is the same as stating that grocery stores are sucking off the government tit because they accept food stamps, bullshit.  On that same logic, the government should mandate what food a grocery store carries of they accept food stamps or WIC.  After all, most stores do not off all the available options that on those programs.  From now on, every grocery store MUST carry Cheerios because there may be someone from WIC that needs them.


----------



## JBeukema (Jul 16, 2010)

Flopper said:


> JBeukema said:
> 
> 
> > Flopper said:
> ...




So the earlier poster can sue acme because it was the recommended product and the pharmacy didn't carry it?

And everyone here has expressed support for making Plan B available at the hospital and the Health Department.


----------



## JBeukema (Jul 16, 2010)

Sarah G said:


> JBeukema said:
> 
> 
> > Flopper said:
> ...



You have 72 hours. If that's enough to go to one pharmacy, it's enough to go to another pharmacy or the Department of Family Planning and Women's Health. 


In instances of rape, everyone here has voiced support for having the medical professionals make Plan B available to the victims.

You, however, can't keep your story straight and have shown you don't even know what the thread is about.


----------



## saveliberty (Jul 16, 2010)

topspin said:


> *That woman should not have to be inconvienienced *by a political nut job. Take the morons license away.



Inconvienienced?  Is that what we are calling abortions now a days?  Pharmacists are not supposed to dispence medicines that do harm.  The kid gets killed.


----------



## JBeukema (Jul 16, 2010)

CurveLight said:


> If Pharms don't want public responsibility they need to find a new profession.  It is not up to them to control others' live through their own self righteous glass gavels.




How is not selling a product controlling your life?

Laws that force businesses to carry certain products control peoples' lives.


----------



## JBeukema (Jul 16, 2010)

Immanuel said:


> Sarah G said:
> 
> 
> > Screaming Eagle said:
> ...



She doesn't know what the fuck she's talking about and was called on t.

Read the second sentence in the article linked in the OP.


----------



## FA_Q2 (Jul 16, 2010)

I see no one has yet taken up my challenge on why a pharmacy is not required to stock my chemotherapy medication that is damn well LIFE THREATENING if doses are missed yet for some reason plan b is required.  Should I drop the last pill in the drain I must go immediately to the nearest hospital that can cater to that field (not always the closes as I have had to drive over 50 miles before for something along these lines) and receive my medication there.  For some reason, that was okay because I was just dealing with plain old cancer, nothing major like a POSSIBLE PREGNANCY!

If the government deems plan b a necessary available product then it is the community hospitals that should be required to carry as they are COMMUNITY hospitals, not private pharmacies.  That is what they are there for, serving the community.


----------



## FA_Q2 (Jul 16, 2010)

topspin said:


> That woman should not have to be inconvienienced by a political nut job. Take the morons license away.



Yes, because it is obvious that your inconvenience is so much more important than my rights.... WAIT A MINUTE....


----------



## Contumacious (Jul 16, 2010)

*ObamaHellcare Begins  In Idaho*

by William Norman Grigg

*This is the central claim of the "consent decree" inflicted, at gunpoint, on a group of Idaho orthopedic surgeons by the Obama Regime * with the eager collaboration of the Idaho REPUBLICAN State Attorney General. Under the terms of that extorted agreement, it would be tantamount to a criminal offense for a doctor to complain to his peers about regulatory actions that may drive accomplished medical specialists out of business"


The welfare/warfare state will dictate to any health care provider. They have the guns.

.
.


----------



## Immanuel (Jul 16, 2010)

JBeukema said:


> Sarah G said:
> 
> 
> > JBeukema said:
> ...



You can always go to Planned Parenthood.  They are becoming as numerous as drug stores so I don't think you will have a problem finding one.

Does Planned Parenthood Have The Morning After Pill/Plan B? - Yahoo! Answers

Immie


----------



## JBeukema (Jul 16, 2010)

CurveLight said:


> Immanuel said:
> 
> 
> > FA_Q2 said:
> ...




So you're woman who's hating a pharmacy?


----------



## JBeukema (Jul 16, 2010)

CurveLight said:


> Immanuel said:
> 
> 
> > Sarah G said:
> ...




Your being a loose slut and not being on BC is not an emergency.

If you were assaulted, go to the ER; everyone's voiced support for making it available there for victims of sexual assault. Or go to the Health Department.

Now, stfu, sit down, and don't speak until you're prepared to be honest.


----------



## JBeukema (Jul 16, 2010)

Sarah G said:


> Immanuel said:
> 
> 
> > Sarah G said:
> ...




If he's a terrible business owner, he'll go out of business.

Market economics 101.


----------



## JBeukema (Jul 16, 2010)

CurveLight said:


> Contumacious said:
> 
> 
> > CurveLight said:
> ...




Your second link extends the period to up to five days


----------



## JBeukema (Jul 16, 2010)

CurveLight said:


> Contumacious said:
> 
> 
> > Sarah G said:
> ...


So stores that refuse to carry vodka are imposing their moral views on me?

It's not like I'm forcing them to drink it.


----------



## JBeukema (Jul 16, 2010)

We solved this with the fourth post



JBeukema said:


> tell the gov to STFU and let business chose whether or not to sell a given product. Allow those who sell BC, including Plan B to add their name a list if they wish and require that is a pharmacy does not sell prophylactics/BC, they provide the address and phone number for the Health Department an/or a list of those pharmacies who requested their name be added to the list. Allow the Health Department (or whatever department thereof) to make BC available to those in need.
> 
> 
> Where I live, the Health Department has a Department of Family Planning and Women's Health that makes condoms available. This same department can be set up in the city in question and tasked with also providing BC or, if more feasible, guiding those in need to where they might acquire such resources.
> ...


----------



## ConHog (Jul 16, 2010)

JBeukema said:


> CurveLight said:
> 
> 
> > Immanuel said:
> ...



I'm convinced CircleJerk's head would explode before he'd be honest, about anything.


----------



## manifold (Jul 16, 2010)

There is a litany of examples of business being regulated by government, much of it for good reasons.

Why is this a bad reason?


----------



## topspin (Jul 16, 2010)

I love that law. The religious morons who don't like it could move to a state that bans that pill.


----------



## manifold (Jul 16, 2010)

I imagine this would be pretty difficult to enforce (i.e. prove guilt) if a particular pharmacist really didn't want to comply.

Trollup: I'm here to fill a prescription for the plan B pill.
Bible thumping doucher chemist: Oh, I'm sorry dear, but we're fresh out.  Should have some with the new delivery tomorrow.

Next day...

Trollup:  Can I get that prescription now?
Bible thumping doucher chemist:  Oh I'm sorry dear, but for some reason they forgot to include it in today's delivery, check back tomorrow.

Next day...

Trollup: OK man, I really need that f*ck'n prescription.
Bible thumping doucher chemist:  I'm sorry dear, but as it happens, they didn't forget to send it at all, turns out I actually forgot to put in on my order.  Silly me. Check back tomorrow.

and so on...


----------



## JBeukema (Jul 16, 2010)

manifold said:


> There is a litany of examples of business being regulated by government, much of it for good reasons.
> 
> Why is this a bad reason?


Fail. You must show why a regulation should be put in place.

Why should a business owner be forced to sell goods he or she does not wish to sell?


----------



## JBeukema (Jul 16, 2010)

topspin said:


> I love that law. The religious morons who don't like it could move to a state that bans that pill.


You're an idiot.


----------



## JBeukema (Jul 16, 2010)

manifold said:


> Bible thumping doucher chemist






Good to see you're hear to discuss the merits of government determing what a business must sell and not to call names and paint anyone who believes in liberty in the market as a 'bible thumping doucher'

If you're too stupid to go elsewhere, you clearly don't want that particular medication. Especially given the litany of other places where it can be obtained. When in doubt call PP- surely, they'll be more than happy to help you find it.


----------



## topspin (Jul 16, 2010)

JBeukema said:


> topspin said:
> 
> 
> > I love that law. The religious morons who don't like it could move to a state that bans that pill.
> ...



Wow I'm going to lose a nano second of sleep cause mr masingil doesn't like my praise of a shut up religious moron law.


----------



## Care4all (Jul 16, 2010)

It's NOT any ole business....

Pharmacies and pharmacists are licensed and governed by the State with many rules and regs attached....sort of similar to other businesses such as Liquor Stores or perhaps Gun shops as well.

those who choose to go in to this business are well aware of such government overseers, BEFORE they choose this business as one to go in to.


----------



## FA_Q2 (Jul 16, 2010)

Care4all said:


> It's NOT any ole business....
> 
> Pharmacies and pharmacists are licensed and governed by the State with many rules and regs attached....sort of similar to other businesses such as Liquor Stores or perhaps Gun shops as well.
> 
> those who choose to go in to this business are well aware of such government overseers, BEFORE they choose this business as one to go in to.



Sure, but that does not make this regulation correct or proper.  For the regulation to stand there should be good reason and purpose for it and as I see it, there is none.  No business including a pharmacy should be forced to carry a product.  I will ask again, why has no one taken up my challenge on chemotherapy drugs that are not dispensed at a pharmacy but somehow plan b is required?


----------



## Care4all (Jul 16, 2010)

FA_Q2 said:


> Care4all said:
> 
> 
> > It's NOT any ole business....
> ...



This PARTICULAR state government, has chosen this as a rule....not being from this particular state, I HAVE NO SAY in the matter....it is up to the gvt of such state and its citizens that vote the jokers in to office.

I do not know the situation in Washington state that made your government make this law in the first place....you seem to think it is not necessary and you have the right to such decision, since it is your State and you also know more about it....but I do not.

chemotherapy drugs are not administered at home, are they?


----------



## FA_Q2 (Jul 16, 2010)

Care4all said:


> FA_Q2 said:
> 
> 
> > Care4all said:
> ...



Yes, chemotherapy drugs ARE administered at home.  There are certain ones that the hospital is required to administer but there are many chemotherapy drugs that are not.  There are even a few IV chemotherapy treatments that are administered at home as well if you are comfortable doing so.


----------



## manifold (Jul 16, 2010)

JBeukema said:


> manifold said:
> 
> 
> > There is a litany of examples of business being regulated by government, much of it for good reasons.
> ...





Are you serious?

Can you honestly only see one side of this issue?

I can certainly understand the argument that it infringes on the autonomous decision making of the pharmacy owner.  Can you not see the obvious argument for it that some might consider it a public service?

I'd much rather this law be imposed on pharmacy owners than the government getting into the pharmacy business to sell what bible thumping doucher pharmacists won't.

Sometimes your mind is narrower than Hank Hill's urethra.  No offense.


----------



## manifold (Jul 16, 2010)

JBeukema said:


> manifold said:
> 
> 
> > Bible thumping doucher chemist
> ...




I see how you selectively omitted where I insulted the customer too. 

Apparently you don't even need to thump the bible to be a doucher.


----------



## Flopper (Jul 16, 2010)

FA_Q2 said:


> I see no one has yet taken up my challenge on why a pharmacy is not required to stock my chemotherapy medication that is damn well LIFE THREATENING if doses are missed yet for some reason plan b is required.  Should I drop the last pill in the drain I must go immediately to the nearest hospital that can cater to that field (not always the closes as I have had to drive over 50 miles before for something along these lines) and receive my medication there.  For some reason, that was okay because I was just dealing with plain old cancer, nothing major like a POSSIBLE PREGNANCY!
> 
> If the government deems plan b a necessary available product then it is the community hospitals that should be required to carry as they are COMMUNITY hospitals, not private pharmacies.  That is what they are there for, serving the community.


*I am certainly not familiar with pharmacies across the country but I don't believe pharmacies are required to maintain a stock of any drug including Plan B, however I believe they must get the drug in a reasonable period of time.  A pharmacy may be able to decline sale of a drug for various reasons, but the personal preference of the pharmacist is not a valid reason, at least in the states mentioned in the article.*


----------



## JBeukema (Jul 17, 2010)

Care4all said:


> It's NOT any ole business....
> 
> Pharmacies and pharmacists are licensed and governed by the State with many rules and regs attached....sort of similar to other businesses such as Liquor Stores or perhaps Gun shops as well.
> 
> those who choose to go in to this business are well aware of such government overseers, BEFORE they choose this business as one to go in to.




So any government control of business can be justified by 'they should expect this kind of authoritarianism and stop bitching'?


----------



## JBeukema (Jul 17, 2010)

Care4all said:


> FA_Q2 said:
> 
> 
> > Care4all said:
> ...



I call bullshit on that cop put.

Do I have no say in California forcefully sterilizing children or Georgia keeping people in slavery?


----------



## JBeukema (Jul 17, 2010)

manifold said:


> JBeukema said:
> 
> 
> > manifold said:
> ...



Nope. A private business is not there to provide a public service. The Health Department and public (municipal etc) hospitals are.

Private businesses are there to make a profit by providing goods or services to private persons who wish to do business.

Soup kitchens provide a public service. Wendy's does not. Local libraries provide a public service. Old Mr. Malcone's Bookshoppe and Literary Emporium does not.





> I'd much rather this law be imposed on pharmacy owners than the government getting into the pharmacy business to sell what bible thumping doucher pharmacists won't.



How bout neither?





> Sometimes your mind is narrower than Hank Hill's urethra.  No offense.


Because I don't support governments effectively taking over businesses?




JBeukema said:


> Solution: tell the gov to STFU and let business chose whether or not to  sell a given product. Allow those who sell BC, including Plan B to add  their name a list if they wish and require that is a pharmacy does not  sell prophylactics/BC, they provide the address and phone number for the  Health Department an/or a list of those pharmacies who requested their  name be added to the list. Allow the Health Department (or whatever  department thereof) to make BC available to those in need.
> 
> 
> Where I live, the Health Department has a Department of Family Planning  and Women's Health that makes condoms available. This same department  can be set up in the city in question and tasked with also providing BC  or, if more feasible, guiding those in need to where they might acquire  such resources.
> ...


----------



## JBeukema (Jul 17, 2010)

manifold said:


> JBeukema said:
> 
> 
> > manifold said:
> ...




After I saw the above, I didn't bother reading the rest of your dribble.


----------



## manifold (Jul 17, 2010)

JB indirectly supports socialism and he doesn't even realize it.

Not surprising since, although he does at times appear educated, his logic is always linear.

No lateral thinking in that brain.  None whatsoever.

Oh well. *shrug*


----------



## CurveLight (Jul 17, 2010)

FA_Q2 said:


> Care4all said:
> 
> 
> > It's NOT any ole business....
> ...



It's an emergency medication.  When was the last time you bitched about stores being forced to have operable fire extinguishers on hand?


----------



## Care4all (Jul 17, 2010)

JBeukema said:


> Care4all said:
> 
> 
> > FA_Q2 said:
> ...



IF Washington State, is anything like Maine with lots of rural areas, with pharmacies and hospitals, few and far between, then I think that the State legislature and the circuit court, did the right thing....the people's need outweighs the single pharmacist's personal choice....

But IF the State of Washington is anything like Massachusetts, where Pharmacies are a dime a dozen, then I would think that this measure is just some far left wing liberals pushing their agenda down our throats...


----------



## CurveLight (Jul 17, 2010)

JBeukema said:


> CurveLight said:
> 
> 
> > Immanuel said:
> ...




Since I'm a man that's pretty fucking stoopid you ignorant cocksucking bitch.

Not all assault victims would be prepared to immediately go to the ER and the Health Department isn't open on weekends, holidays, after 5pm, etc.  You truly suck at debating.


----------



## Mr. Shaman (Jul 17, 2010)

JBeukema said:


> Care4all said:
> 
> 
> > It's NOT any ole business....
> ...





> "*The courts have held, time and time again*, that *a person or corporation acting in a for-profit capacity as a marketplace actor must accept the general marketplace rules by which a secular world operatesincluding nondiscrimination in the provision of goods and services.* As the United States Supreme Court held in United States v. Lee, 455 U.S. 252, 261 (1982), *When followers of a particular sect enter into commercial activity as a matter of choice, the limits they accept on their own conduct as a matter of conscience and faith, are not to be superimposed on the statutory schemes which are binding on others in that activity.*



Your own _private, little laws_ can't trump the secular world's laws.​


----------



## CurveLight (Jul 17, 2010)

I have a feeling many whiners are confusing plan b for the ru486 pill.  Anyone bitching about plan b should also be bitching about all forms of birth control.


----------



## Mr. Shaman (Jul 17, 2010)

CurveLight said:


> I have a feeling many whiners are confusing plan b for the ru486 pill.  Anyone bitching about plan b should also be bitching about all forms of birth control.


They *do* have a _tendency_ to get _confused_ about *most* things.....in the *REAL World*.



(I think it *must* be genetic.)


----------



## judyd (Jul 17, 2010)

I'm pretty liberal on a lot of issues, but this one just doesn't seem right.  I am not comfortable with a retail establishment being forced to sell anything, especially if they don't feel it is morally right.  Even Walmart at times has refused to carry music or DVDs they feel are objectionable.  

I also live in a small town and yet there are at least six pharmacies within a seven mile radius.  So if one decided they didn't want to carry something, there are several other options.

Also, if I was sexually active and pregnancy would be completely out of the question for me, I would probably take some pre-emptive measures and make sure I had this drug on hand just in case, and not go on a frenzied scavenger hunt at the last minute.


----------



## Sarah G (Jul 17, 2010)

CurveLight said:


> I have a feeling many whiners are confusing plan b for the ru486 pill.  Anyone bitching about plan b should also be bitching about all forms of birth control.



Exactly.  They're hitting every angle but the right one.


----------



## Care4all (Jul 17, 2010)

judyd said:


> I'm pretty liberal on a lot of issues, but this one just doesn't seem right.  I am not comfortable with a retail establishment being forced to sell anything, especially if they don't feel it is morally right.  Even Walmart at times has refused to carry music or DVDs they feel are objectionable.
> 
> I also live in a small town and yet there are at least six pharmacies within a seven mile radius.  So if one decided they didn't want to carry something, there are several other options.
> 
> Also, if I was sexually active and pregnancy would be completely out of the question for me, I would probably take some pre-emptive measures and make sure I had this drug on hand just in case, and not go on a frenzied scavenger hunt at the last minute.



Walmart is a general goods store and is not solely a pharmacy that is highly regulated and licensed by the State for the medical good of the people....


----------



## saveliberty (Jul 17, 2010)

Care4all said:


> judyd said:
> 
> 
> > I'm pretty liberal on a lot of issues, but this one just doesn't seem right.  I am not comfortable with a retail establishment being forced to sell anything, especially if they don't feel it is morally right.  Even Walmart at times has refused to carry music or DVDs they feel are objectionable.
> ...



Medical good of the people doesn't mean the same thing to everyone.  This medicine is available at Family Planing Clinics correct? Those are pretty much in every county nationwide.  So I start a pharmacy in 1990, before the drug.  Now I find myself in this position twenty years later.  I am suppose to throw my ethics out the window because the state says so or go out of business?  Nice play at God there Care.


----------



## Mr. Shaman (Jul 17, 2010)

Sarah G said:


> CurveLight said:
> 
> 
> > I have a feeling many whiners are confusing plan b for the ru486 pill.  Anyone bitching about plan b should also be bitching about all forms of birth control.
> ...


I'm thinkin'.....no matter *how*-many hits are delivered....there's *already* been *irreversible-damage done* (most-likely, multiple-dropping-incidents).

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2UxPDZCOuYA]YouTube - Sharron Angle Gets Questioned By A Real Reporter And Nearly Has A Breakdown[/ame]​


----------



## CurveLight (Jul 17, 2010)

judyd said:


> I'm pretty liberal on a lot of issues, but this one just doesn't seem right.  I am not comfortable with a retail establishment being forced to sell anything, especially if they don't feel it is morally right.  Even Walmart at times has refused to carry music or DVDs they feel are objectionable.
> 
> I also live in a small town and yet there are at least six pharmacies within a seven mile radius.  So if one decided they didn't want to carry something, there are several other options.
> 
> Also, if I was sexually active and pregnancy would be completely out of the question for me, I would probably take some pre-emptive measures and make sure I had this drug on hand just in case, and not go on a frenzied scavenger hunt at the last minute.




Let's not confuse plan b with a dixie chicks cd. 

The sexual activity of females is completely irrelevent.  Plan B does not come in Slut Mode, Rape Mode, or Shit the Condom Broke Mode.


----------



## CurveLight (Jul 17, 2010)

saveliberty said:


> Care4all said:
> 
> 
> > judyd said:
> ...




If you want the ability to force your ethics on to people then start a church.  

Selfishness is at the center of the problem here along with ignorance.  When you operate a business in the public arena you must realize it is a two way street.  When I have to hire people I'm not allowed to discriminate based on several areas. If a racist applies and is qualified I have to hire that person.  As a business owner I understand I don't exist in a vacuum.  The good part is, as soon as the racist makes racist comments on a job site I can fire the dumbass on the spot and there isn't a fucking thing the whiner can do.  I have had a couple threaten to call the AG's office and when they have I've given them the number and offered free use of my phone.

Playing by the rules doesn't mean you can't play.


----------



## Contumacious (Jul 17, 2010)

Care4all said:


> It's NOT any ole business....
> 
> Pharmacies and pharmacists are licensed and governed by the State with many rules and regs attached....sort of similar to other businesses such as Liquor Stores or perhaps Gun shops as well.
> 
> those who choose to go in to this business are well aware of such government overseers, BEFORE they choose this business as one to go in to.



Identify one business - one - which the welfare/warfare does not regulate.

The right of the people to freely associate has been abolished by the fascists.

...The Fascist State organizes the nation, but leaves a sufficient margin of liberty to the individual; the latter is deprived of all useless and possibly harmful freedom, but retains what is essential; the deciding power in this question cannot be the individual, but the State alone.... 



*Benito Mussolini:
What is Fascism, 1932*

.


----------



## judyd (Jul 17, 2010)

CurveLight said:


> judyd said:
> 
> 
> > I'm pretty liberal on a lot of issues, but this one just doesn't seem right.  I am not comfortable with a retail establishment being forced to sell anything, especially if they don't feel it is morally right.  Even Walmart at times has refused to carry music or DVDs they feel are objectionable.
> ...



I'm not making a judgement there.  I am simply pointing out that a woman who is sexually active (which could even mean married, you know) and CANNOT get pregnant under any circumstances, should probably get this drug at her leisure and keep it on hand just in case.  A necessary precaution, just like a woman who isn't involved with someone keeps a diaphragm or other device--just in case.


----------



## judyd (Jul 17, 2010)

Care4all said:


> judyd said:
> 
> 
> > I'm pretty liberal on a lot of issues, but this one just doesn't seem right.  I am not comfortable with a retail establishment being forced to sell anything, especially if they don't feel it is morally right.  Even Walmart at times has refused to carry music or DVDs they feel are objectionable.
> ...



Doctors are also licensed by the state.  They are not all forced to perform procedures they do not want to perform.


----------



## CurveLight (Jul 17, 2010)

judyd said:


> CurveLight said:
> 
> 
> > judyd said:
> ...




What does that have to do with making pharms carry plan b?


----------



## CurveLight (Jul 17, 2010)

Contumacious said:


> Care4all said:
> 
> 
> > It's NOT any ole business....
> ...




Curve's Law:

Stoopid people believe a creative side-step of Godwin's Law is to cite Mussolini.


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## Contumacious (Jul 17, 2010)

CurveLight said:


> Contumacious said:
> 
> 
> > Care4all said:
> ...



Hummmm a denialist

*"Those who cannot learn from history are doomed to repeat it."

George Santayana *

.


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## Immanuel (Jul 17, 2010)

Care4all said:


> It's NOT any ole business....
> 
> Pharmacies and pharmacists are licensed and governed by the State with many rules and regs attached....sort of similar to other businesses such as Liquor Stores or perhaps Gun shops as well.
> 
> those who choose to go in to this business are well aware of such government overseers, BEFORE they choose this business as one to go in to.



So, the Christian CPA should be required to take on makers of porn as clients?  After all, CPAs are licensed by the state and the porn industry in not illegal as long as it is not child porn.

Immie


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## Douger (Jul 17, 2010)

They only allow pharmacists to choose their products in free countries.
That leaves you idiots out of the club.
*Lie*Birdy and FreeDumb.


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## Immanuel (Jul 17, 2010)

Question:

Is a pharmacy in California required to carry MJ now since "medical" marijuana is now legalized in the state?

Next question:

Should a California pharmacy be required to carry marijuana?

Immie


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## Againsheila (Jul 17, 2010)

xotoxi said:


> I wonder if those pharmacists that are so pissed carry regular birth control pills.



I think there's a big difference between birth control pills and the other pill.  I think the side effects of the other pill warrant a great deal more precaution and unless the person is seeing a doctor, or will see a doctor afterward, it really is a dangerous thing. 

Also, birth control pills prevent pregnancy, the other kills a pregnancy.  I can see people who don't believe in that and don't believe they should be forced to sell something against their beliefs.

I have a doctor that won't do abortions, nevertheless, he will refer you to someone who will.  How about we require the pharmacists to do that?


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## Againsheila (Jul 17, 2010)

Immanuel said:


> Question:
> 
> Is a pharmacy in California required to carry MJ now since "medical" marijuana is now legalized in the state?
> 
> ...



Not if it's against their religion.  Though I don't know a single religion that specifies no use of marijuana.


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## Againsheila (Jul 17, 2010)

Care4all said:


> JBeukema said:
> 
> 
> > Care4all said:
> ...



Why should geography be the determining factor?  Either it's right or it's wrong, I don't think where you live in the state should determine what your are forced to sell.


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## Againsheila (Jul 17, 2010)

Mr. Shaman said:


> CurveLight said:
> 
> 
> > I have a feeling many whiners are confusing plan b for the ru486 pill.  Anyone bitching about plan b should also be bitching about all forms of birth control.
> ...



Here's an idea, why don't you explain the difference to us?


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## Contumacious (Jul 17, 2010)

Immanuel said:


> Care4all said:
> 
> 
> > It's NOT any ole business....
> ...



What is really funny about these ding-a-lings  is that they maintain that pharmacists do not have a right to freely associate, that it is alright for the state to dictate.

But , if the state took it upon itself to ignore the womens' right to freely associate and dictate to them who the sexual partners will be they would scream like stuck hogs.

.


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## CurveLight (Jul 17, 2010)

Contumacious said:


> Immanuel said:
> 
> 
> > Care4all said:
> ...



Even if I had the patience I'm not sure it would be worth it to try and respond to this canyon of stoopidity.


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## CurveLight (Jul 17, 2010)

Immanuel said:


> Care4all said:
> 
> 
> > It's NOT any ole business....
> ...




I'm not sure if that is a legal form of discrimination or not but I doubt a porn company would put themselves in that situation.


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## Immanuel (Jul 17, 2010)

CurveLight said:


> Immanuel said:
> 
> 
> > Care4all said:
> ...



How would they know whether or not the CPA they approached was a Christian until the point when he told them, "I'm sorry, but as a Christian, I do not feel comfortable representing your profession."  Then maybe he would recommend someone else or not, but he should not be required to do so.

I have to say, that I am extremely opposed to your way of thinking which seems to be that the government can force any business man to do business with every one in the country.  

I can live with the fact that you have a differing opinion than my own, but I believe you are wrong and would pray to God that in this country we do still have the freedom to decide with whom we want to do business.

Immie


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## CurveLight (Jul 17, 2010)

Immanuel said:


> Question:
> 
> Is a pharmacy in California required to carry MJ now since "medical" marijuana is now legalized in the state?
> 
> ...




It's not an emergency medication and you can get 420 in Cally much faster by sticking your hand out the window.


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## CurveLight (Jul 17, 2010)

Immanuel said:


> CurveLight said:
> 
> 
> > Immanuel said:
> ...



Do you support "Whites Only" restaurants?


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## Immanuel (Jul 17, 2010)

CurveLight said:


> Immanuel said:
> 
> 
> > Question:
> ...




Forgive me... I'm not a user.  

420?

Nevermind: googled it.

Immie


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## Immanuel (Jul 17, 2010)

CurveLight said:


> Immanuel said:
> 
> 
> > CurveLight said:
> ...



No, as we have already agreed in this country that racial discrimination is wrong and is a crime.

I have, however, been refused service at a restaurant in Mississippi because of the lightness of my skin.

Immie


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## CurveLight (Jul 17, 2010)

Immanuel said:


> CurveLight said:
> 
> 
> > Immanuel said:
> ...




That contradicts your claim that:

"....pray to God that in this country we do still have the freedom to decide with whom we want to do business."

So which is it?  You seem to support the right to force some business owners to serve certain members of the public but then cry theft of "freedom" when they are forced in areas you personally disapprove of.  What's the difference between skin color and occupation?


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## judyd (Jul 17, 2010)

CurveLight said:


> Immanuel said:
> 
> 
> > CurveLight said:
> ...


  Not even close to the same thing.  The pharmacist is not refusing to serve the customers and will sell them anything else that he CARRIES in his store--he just doesn't want to carry that one product.  Maybe there are other drugs that he doesn't carry because he doesn't make any money on them.  Should he also be forced to carry them?


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## Sarah G (Jul 17, 2010)

Againsheila said:


> xotoxi said:
> 
> 
> > I wonder if those pharmacists that are so pissed carry regular birth control pills.
> ...



Have you ever read the side effects on the birth control literature they give you at the pharmacy?

It's quite extensive.  

This is religious objection because they don't understand the difference between birth control and abortions.


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## Quantum Windbag (Jul 17, 2010)

judyd said:


> I'm pretty liberal on a lot of issues, but this one just doesn't seem right.  I am not comfortable with a retail establishment being forced to sell anything, especially if they don't feel it is morally right.  Even Walmart at times has refused to carry music or DVDs they feel are objectionable.
> 
> I also live in a small town and yet there are at least six pharmacies within a seven mile radius.  So if one decided they didn't want to carry something, there are several other options.
> 
> Also, if I was sexually active and pregnancy would be completely out of the question for me, I would probably take some pre-emptive measures and make sure I had this drug on hand just in case, and not go on a frenzied scavenger hunt at the last minute.



You are obviously untrained in the ways of progressive groupthink. Expecting someone to anticipate, and prepare for, the consequences of their actions smacks of personal responsibility. Shame on you.


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## CurveLight (Jul 17, 2010)

judyd said:


> CurveLight said:
> 
> 
> > Immanuel said:
> ...




It is the same thing: discrimination.

The only reason I support making pharms carrying plan b is because it is an emergency medication.  Self righteous pharms should not be a hurdle to citizens in need of immediate medication.


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## Immanuel (Jul 17, 2010)

CurveLight said:


> Immanuel said:
> 
> 
> > CurveLight said:
> ...



There are some "freedoms" that we have agreed to give up.

I never said we should have complete and unrestricted freedom.

Complete and unrestricted freedom would mean that I could hunt down a member here who has pissed me off, say TDM and walk up to her front door and rearrange the nose on her face or do worse to her all in the same time as I am trying to keep you from doing the same to me.

I sure as hell do not want to live in a society that allows that, but neither do I have any desire to live in the society that you seem to espouse.

Immie


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## JBeukema (Jul 17, 2010)

manifold said:


> JB indirectly supports socialism and he doesn't even realize it.




How is not forcing a business to sell a given product socialism?

Your post is a total non sequitur.


----------



## Mr. Shaman (Jul 17, 2010)

Sarah G said:


> Againsheila said:
> 
> 
> > xotoxi said:
> ...


.....Yet, they *ALWAYS* manage to *avoid* that *HUGE* *elephant-in-the-room!!!!!*

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OFkeKKszXTw]YouTube - Betty Bowers Explains Traditional Marriage to Everyone Else[/ame]


----------



## JBeukema (Jul 17, 2010)

CurveLight said:


> FA_Q2 said:
> 
> 
> > Care4all said:
> ...




Yes, because if the building is on fire you can go elsewhere to put the fire out 

I'm trying to determine whether that was a sign of total dishonesty or just sheer stupidity.


----------



## JBeukema (Jul 17, 2010)

Care4all said:


> JBeukema said:
> 
> 
> > Care4all said:
> ...



The 'people's need' can be met by the Health Department and the hospitals. Should the owner of the local fast food joint be forced to sell carrots, since the people need fruits and vegetables? Or should the people go to the damned grocery store?



> But IF the State of Washington is anything like Massachusetts, where Pharmacies are a dime a dozen, then I would think that this measure is just some far left wing liberals pushing their agenda down our throats...



Which you continue to support.


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## ConHog (Jul 17, 2010)

CurveLight said:


> Immanuel said:
> 
> 
> > CurveLight said:
> ...



A trick question:

Would I have a business that served only whites? Of course not, what kind of way would that be to make money?

But I DO think this part of the Civil Rights Act is unconstitutional. If I own a business I should be able to serve anyone and restrict service to anyone I see fit. The government should NOT be telling me who I can and can't do business with , nor should they be able to tell me what products I must stock, regardless of emergency or any other nonsense you can come up with.


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## Quantum Windbag (Jul 17, 2010)

CurveLight said:


> Do you support "Whites Only" restaurants?



Do you support a vegan restaurant being forced to serve steaks? A kosher deli being forced to carry pork? Those are the equivalent questions to be asking here, not the false equivalency you are spouting.


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## CurveLight (Jul 17, 2010)

Immanuel said:


> CurveLight said:
> 
> 
> > Immanuel said:
> ...



You sure as hell are not consistent nor comprehend my position or the reasons behind it.  Your physical violence example is concrete evidence.


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## judyd (Jul 17, 2010)

CurveLight said:


> judyd said:
> 
> 
> > CurveLight said:
> ...



You obviously weren't around in the 60's if you think this is discrimination!  Jeez!!!

There are one or two private, one-store pharmacies in my area that have been here since my family would vacation here when I was a child.  There are also several of the Rite-Aid, Walgreen, CVS type which have sprung up.   And I'm in a small resort town.  If the one store pharmacist doesn't want to carry something in his store, I can't imagine trying to force him to do so.  To pretend that there are no other options is disingenuous.  And for what purpose?


----------



## ConHog (Jul 17, 2010)

CurveLight said:


> Immanuel said:
> 
> 
> > CurveLight said:
> ...



No one ever understand you CircleJerk, cuz you argue in circles and never really make a point. Amazing to that on EVERY issue , and I mean EVERY time, you are wrong.


----------



## JBeukema (Jul 17, 2010)

Mr. Shaman said:


> JBeukema said:
> 
> 
> > Care4all said:
> ...




Since when do 'the general marketplace rules by which the secular world operates' translate to 'the government effectively taking over your business and forcing you to sell any given product'?

They're not discriminating against anyone. They're simply not selling a given product. 

Are they no longer allowed to close on Sundays or Christmas? Can a business owner no longer not carry liquor?


----------



## JBeukema (Jul 17, 2010)

CurveLight said:


> I have a feeling many whiners are confusing plan b for the ru486 pill.  Anyone bitching about plan b should also be bitching about all forms of birth control.


Has nothing to do with the subject of this thread.


----------



## ConHog (Jul 17, 2010)

judyd said:


> CurveLight said:
> 
> 
> > judyd said:
> ...



That's what I'm saying. I can't imagine that in 2010 ANYONE lives more than an hour from a Wal Mart, or it's equivalent, you KNOW these people are going to carry this product. Why force Tom the local guy to do so ?

Same thing as the gays wanting in a group which explicitly doesn't want them. It has nothing to do with anything other than forcing their views on other people PERIOD


----------



## JBeukema (Jul 17, 2010)

judyd said:


> I'm pretty liberal on a lot of issues, but this one just doesn't seem right.  I am not comfortable with a retail establishment being forced to sell anything



That is a Liberal position.



> , especially if they don't feel it is morally right.  Even Walmart at times has refused to carry music or DVDs they feel are objectionable.



I haven't purchased a CD from Wal*Mart in ages, but I recall all their music was censored a few years back.





> I also live in a small town and yet there are at least six pharmacies within a seven mile radius.  So if one decided they didn't want to carry something, there are several other options.



When in doubt, find the Health Department, a hospital, or Planned Parenthood. If they can't give it to you, they're bound to know who can.


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## Quantum Windbag (Jul 17, 2010)

Sarah G said:


> Againsheila said:
> 
> 
> > xotoxi said:
> ...



The problem here is not their misunderstanding, but yours. Plan b prevents a fertilized egg from implanting, which, to a person who believes life begins at conception, is the moral equivalent of an abortion.

There is legal precedent for this in that a person can be charged with being an accessory before the fact of a crime. If the law can recognize that it is possible to aid and abet a criminal by doing something that is perfectly legal, and is not a crime, until another person commits a crime, why do you have a problem with seeing that there is no real difference in preventing a fertilized egg from implanting and aborting that same egg after it implants?


----------



## Immanuel (Jul 17, 2010)

CurveLight said:


> Immanuel said:
> 
> 
> > CurveLight said:
> ...



My example is exactly where your argument that my position is contradictory would lead.

We have agreed to certain laws.  You want to strengthen those laws to an extreme that removes freedom completely.  I say we have come to an agreement that somethings are just plain wrong, but feel that that is the point where government involvement should end.  You would push government involvement beyond that point.

Immie


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## JBeukema (Jul 17, 2010)

CurveLight said:


> saveliberty said:
> 
> 
> > Care4all said:
> ...




Says the guy who wants to force businesses to carry a certain product because he  thinks it's a moral imperative for a woman to not have to go to a different pharmacy, the Health Department, PP...


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## JBeukema (Jul 17, 2010)

judyd said:


> CurveLight said:
> 
> 
> > judyd said:
> ...




Women still use diaphragms? 

I thought they got rid of those when IUDs, the Rods, and BC pills came out?


----------



## JBeukema (Jul 17, 2010)

Againsheila said:


> Immanuel said:
> 
> 
> > Question:
> ...




Probably the same sects that don't drink. I imagine those who oppose tobacco and alcohol would also object to marijuana.


----------



## JBeukema (Jul 17, 2010)

CurveLight said:


> Do you support "Whites Only" restaurants?




So not selling birth control is racist now?


Why does everything always end in accusations of racism?


----------



## ConHog (Jul 17, 2010)

JBeukema said:


> CurveLight said:
> 
> 
> > Do you support "Whites Only" restaurants?
> ...



Because that is all they have.


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## JBeukema (Jul 17, 2010)

Sarah G said:


> Againsheila said:
> 
> 
> > xotoxi said:
> ...




Does it really matter why they don't wish to sell it?


----------



## judyd (Jul 17, 2010)

JBeukema said:


> judyd said:
> 
> 
> > CurveLight said:
> ...



I'm beyond the years of worrying about getting pregnant--so I'm not up on the latest "barriers".  I found the sponge to be effective! 

My only point was that if you really couldn't be pregnant--plan ahead and make sure you have this pill on hand.  I know I would have done that.  I wouldn't have whined about a pharmacist that wasn't comfortable keeping it in stock for whatever reason.


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## Sarah G (Jul 17, 2010)

Quantum Windbag said:


> Sarah G said:
> 
> 
> > Againsheila said:
> ...



It is not the job of a pharmacist to be judge, jury and executioner.  They are there to dispense drugs.  Now a rule had to be created to let them know that.

It's arrogant to attempt to tell someone they can't sell you what you want because you're too stupid to know when conception is.  

They need to shutup and do their work.


----------



## JBeukema (Jul 17, 2010)

JBeukema said:


> Solution: tell the gov to STFU and let business chose whether or not to sell a given product. Allow those who sell BC, including Plan B to add their name a list if they wish and require that is a pharmacy does not sell prophylactics/BC, they provide the address and phone number for the Health Department an/or a list of those pharmacies who requested their name be added to the list. Allow the Health Department (or whatever department thereof) to make BC available to those in need.
> 
> 
> Where I live, the Health Department has a Department of Family Planning and Women's Health that makes condoms available. This same department can be set up in the city in question and tasked with also providing BC or, if more feasible, guiding those in need to where they might acquire such resources.
> ...




jesus, people


----------



## judyd (Jul 17, 2010)

Sarah G said:


> Quantum Windbag said:
> 
> 
> > Sarah G said:
> ...



Well I hope every pharmacist that is forced to carry it puts a price tag on it of $200.00.  Or do you want to set the price too?


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## JBeukema (Jul 17, 2010)

judyd said:


> JBeukema said:
> 
> 
> > judyd said:
> ...




Sponge? Never heard of- you know what, I don't want to know. They have rods that go in the forearm and pills now.


----------



## ConHog (Jul 17, 2010)

Sarah G said:


> Quantum Windbag said:
> 
> 
> > Sarah G said:
> ...




Who's being arrogant here? YOU are trying to tell others what they MUST sell. As JB said, what does it matter what their reason is? if I don't want to sell something for NO reason, that's my right when it's MY business.


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## Immanuel (Jul 17, 2010)

judyd said:


> JBeukema said:
> 
> 
> > judyd said:
> ...



Careful!

Abraham's wife Sarah said pretty much the same thing.  

Immie


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## Sarah G (Jul 17, 2010)

judyd said:


> Sarah G said:
> 
> 
> > Quantum Windbag said:
> ...



Sorry, there are laws against that sort of thing.


----------



## JBeukema (Jul 17, 2010)

Sarah G said:


> It is not the job of a pharmacist to be judge, jury and executioner.




Wait...

Main Entry: *ex·e·cu·tion·er* 
Pronunciation: \-sh(&#601;-)n&#601;r\
Function:  _noun_ 
Date:  1536
*:* one who executes; _especially_ *:*  one who puts to death

Executioner - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary

Wait.... so someone not selling a pill that prevents the egg from implanting, thereby ensuring the death of the zygote (that is the earlierest stage of a new human life)


-is *putting to death* the person who has to go buy it elsewhere?



[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MDthMGtZKa4]YouTube - Fonzie Jumps the Shark[/ame]



> It's arrogant... because you're too stupid...They need to shutup


----------



## Immanuel (Jul 17, 2010)

Sarah G said:


> Quantum Windbag said:
> 
> 
> > Sarah G said:
> ...



It seems pretty arrogant to tell a business owner what products he/she has to carry or to tell them who they have to do business with. 

Immie


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## Quantum Windbag (Jul 17, 2010)

Sarah G said:


> Quantum Windbag said:
> 
> 
> > Sarah G said:
> ...



Pharmacies do not have the storage space to carry every possible drug that might be needed, they have to make choices based on their community and their profits. You want to take that ability away from them, and force them to carry something just because you equate it with women's rights.

Guess what, it is not a right. You do not have any more right to force that pharmacist to carry a certain drug than I do to force him not to. End of story.

You are the one who has a serious problem with definitions here, and I was trying to be nice about explaining it to you. If you refuse to see truth just because you do not like it, then I do not have to be patient or nice about explaining it. Go whine to someone who thinks you are entitled to things, not to me, or the other reasonable people on the planet.


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## Immanuel (Jul 17, 2010)

judyd said:


> Sarah G said:
> 
> 
> > Quantum Windbag said:
> ...



I like that idea even better than my, "I'm sorry, I am out of stock" answer.

In fact, I would offer to sell it for say $20,000/dosage.  If I could still sell it at that price, I would simply increase the price tag until no one wanted to purchase it from me.  

Immie


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## Immanuel (Jul 17, 2010)

Sarah G said:


> judyd said:
> 
> 
> > Sarah G said:
> ...



What laws? 

Link please!

Immie


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## Sarah G (Jul 17, 2010)

Immanuel said:


> Sarah G said:
> 
> 
> > Quantum Windbag said:
> ...



It seems like a big deal here but there are very few pharmacies that will go to the mats for this.  They mostly go to work, earn their money and call it a day.   

Only religious nuts like this sort of drama.  I'm on the female side of the argument.


----------



## judyd (Jul 17, 2010)

JBeukema said:


> judyd said:
> 
> 
> > JBeukema said:
> ...


  I have more of a problem with those.  Did you ever wonder why there are so many cases of increased breast and ovarian cancers these days?  I never liked the idea of taking hormones for years.  Now that I see so many other women my age who are going through so many problems, I think I was on the right track!


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## Immanuel (Jul 17, 2010)

Sarah G said:


> Immanuel said:
> 
> 
> > Sarah G said:
> ...



So anyone that disagrees with you is a religious nut?

I think JB is correct, you have jumped the shark.

Immie


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## Sarah G (Jul 17, 2010)

Immanuel said:


> Sarah G said:
> 
> 
> > Immanuel said:
> ...



You two are on the wrong side of this so I really don't care what you think of me.


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## Immanuel (Jul 17, 2010)

Sarah G said:


> Immanuel said:
> 
> 
> > Sarah G said:
> ...



Did I say I thought poorly of you?

Do you know what jumping the shark means?

Gotta run for 45 minutes but I will be back.

Immie


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## JBeukema (Jul 17, 2010)

Sarah G said:


> Immanuel said:
> 
> 
> > Sarah G said:
> ...


Since when is the side of liberty and freedom the wrong side?

That you'd say any such thing tells us all there is to know about you.


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## judyd (Jul 17, 2010)

Sarah G said:


> judyd said:
> 
> 
> > Sarah G said:
> ...



You think?  I don't.  I check prices for my eye drops every month.  There is  a huge difference among the pharmacies in the area--from $75 to 150.  No one has put a law into place about that!


----------



## Shadow (Jul 17, 2010)

Immanuel said:


> judyd said:
> 
> 
> > Sarah G said:
> ...



Sometimes they would have to sell it for an extremely high price anyway.  Some items the distributors just don't offer under certain contracts unless the customer ( in this case the pharmacy) uses it in bulk, and purchases large quantities every month.  If they have to order a small amount, it may not even be an item they can get for a reasonable price from the manufacturer.


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## Againsheila (Jul 17, 2010)

Quantum Windbag said:


> CurveLight said:
> 
> 
> > Do you support "Whites Only" restaurants?
> ...



Not the same at all.  You are comparing the kind of customers you will serve, with the kind of food a restaurant will serve.  Unless they are actually cooking the people, I don't think it's a good analogy.


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## JBeukema (Jul 17, 2010)

Do show how not forcing businesses to sell something is socialism.


----------



## manifold (Jul 17, 2010)

JBeukema said:


> manifold said:
> 
> 
> > JB indirectly supports socialism and he doesn't even realize it.
> ...



To a linear logic shackled, absolutist minded psuedo-intellectual, sure.


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## manifold (Jul 17, 2010)

For the record, I'm not convinced that this law is necessary.  I simply reject the absolutist nature of the arguments being presented by it's opponents here.  Yes, it's an infringement on a business owners decision making autonomy.  But there is ample precedent demonstrating that business owners do not retain autonomous decision making rights.  So the question becomes is the benefit worth this particular infringment.  To that I say, I don't know, and quite frankly, I'm largely ambivalent.  But to suggest that there exists no logical arguments in support of it is ludicrous.


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## Flopper (Jul 17, 2010)

*The court did not rule that pharmacies must sell Plan .  The court ruled that the pharmacy can not refuse to sell the drug based on the pharmacist personal religious preferences.  It is not the action of refusing to sell the medication that was at issue.  It's the reason for refusing to sell it that is the issue.  A good analogy is employment.  You can refuse to hire people but you can't refuse to hire them because of their race.  There would have never been a court case nor would there have been this thread had pharmacist told the customer he did not stock the drug because there was not sufficient demand or any other reason other than his religious beliefs.*
 [/B]


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## Immanuel (Jul 17, 2010)

Sarah G said:


> Immanuel said:
> 
> 
> > Sarah G said:
> ...



Sarah,

For the record, I did not say I thought poorly of you.  Quite truthfully I do not.  You are one of the liberals that are fun to have a discussion with even though we don't have many discussions.

Here is what jumping the shark means:

Jumping the shark - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



> Jumping the shark is an idiom used to describe the moment of downturn for a previously successful enterprise. The phrase was originally used to denote the point in a television program's history where the plot spins off into absurd story lines or unlikely characterizations. These changes were often the result of efforts to revive interest in a show whose audience had begun to decline, usually through the employment of different actors, writers or producers.[1][2][3]
> [edit] History
> 
> The phrase jump the shark refers to the climactic scene in "Hollywood," a three-part episode opening the fifth season of the American TV series Happy Days in September 1977. In this story, the central characters visit Los Angeles, where Fonzie (Henry Winkler), wearing swim trunks and his leather jacket, jumps over a confined shark on water skis, answering a challenge to demonstrate his bravery. The series continued for nearly seven years after that, with a number of changes in cast and situations.
> ...



Immie


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## JBeukema (Jul 17, 2010)

Flopper said:


> *The court did not rule that pharmacies must sell Plan .  The court ruled that the pharmacy can not refuse to sell the drug based on the pharmacist personal religious preferences.  It is not the action of refusing to sell the medication that was at issue.  It's the reason for refusing to sell it that is the issue.  A good analogy is employment.  You can refuse to hire people but you can't refuse to hire them because of their race.  There would have never been a court case nor would there have been this thread had pharmacist told the customer he did not stock the drug because there was not sufficient demand or any other reason other than his religious beliefs.*
> [/b]




So I can refuse to sell it, but the man in the article can't? I have more rights than he does because he happens to be religious?

And people are okay with that?

And why does everything always end in cries of racism? Refusing to sell a given product and discriminating against someone based on their race are two wholly separate issues.


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## Immanuel (Jul 17, 2010)

Flopper said:


> *The court did not rule that pharmacies must sell Plan .  The court ruled that the pharmacy can not refuse to sell the drug based on the pharmacist personal religious preferences.  It is not the action of refusing to sell the medication that was at issue.  It's the reason for refusing to sell it that is the issue.  A good analogy is employment.  You can refuse to hire people but you can't refuse to hire them because of their race.  There would have never been a court case nor would there have been this thread had pharmacist told the customer he did not stock the drug because there was not sufficient demand or any other reason other than his religious beliefs.*



So, what you are saying is that as long as I don't give a reason for not selling it, I don't have to sell it?

Okay, works for me.  If I were a pharmacist, I would simply refuse to sell it and not give my reasons for doing so.

Immie


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## Flopper (Jul 17, 2010)

*Yes, you have the idea.  The guy in the article can't refuse to sell it because his reason for doing so is his religious preferences.  If you are pharmacist you can choose to sell it or not, as long as your reason for doing so is not your religious beliefs.  A fine line, but important to the courts.

If you don't like my analogy using race, then you can substitute sex.  The principal is the same.

BTW I think this entire case should have been throw out of court.  I think it was frivolous.*


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## Sarah G (Jul 17, 2010)

Immanuel said:


> Sarah G said:
> 
> 
> > Immanuel said:
> ...



The law is about religious objections to selling the god damned drug and you two are trying to make it something else.  

Immie, everyone knows what jumping the shark means.


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## CurveLight (Jul 17, 2010)

Againsheila said:


> Quantum Windbag said:
> 
> 
> > CurveLight said:
> ...



What would you think about a restaurant serving only fried chicken and watermelon?  I didn't mention any race but the inference is clear.  Same thing with plan b.  There is a perception the shoppers would be sluts and that has been solidified on this thread.

Plus, I was responding to immie's claim that all Americans should have the freedom to do business with only those they choose.


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## Contumacious (Jul 17, 2010)

CurveLight said:


> Plus, I was responding to immie's claim that all Americans should have the freedom to do business with only those they choose.



*Godwin's law

"Fuck George Santayana, ignore history"*

.

.


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## Againsheila (Jul 17, 2010)

Flopper said:


> *The court did not rule that pharmacies must sell Plan .  The court ruled that the pharmacy can not refuse to sell the drug based on the pharmacist personal religious preferences.  It is not the action of refusing to sell the medication that was at issue.  It's the reason for refusing to sell it that is the issue.  A good analogy is employment.  You can refuse to hire people but you can't refuse to hire them because of their race.  There would have never been a court case nor would there have been this thread had pharmacist told the customer he did not stock the drug because there was not sufficient demand or any other reason other than his religious beliefs.*
> [/B]



You mean, we don't have freedom of religion in this country?


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## Immanuel (Jul 17, 2010)

Sarah G said:


> Immanuel said:
> 
> 
> > Sarah G said:
> ...



You are absolutely wrong.  The law is about control of business.  That is all this is about.  The government wants to control you.  Plain and simple that is what it is about.

If you knew what "jumping the shark" means then why did you indicate that  you didn't care what I thought of you?  I never said anything at all about thinking poorly of you.

Immie


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## manifold (Jul 17, 2010)

Againsheila said:


> Flopper said:
> 
> 
> > *The court did not rule that pharmacies must sell Plan .  The court ruled that the pharmacy can not refuse to sell the drug based on the pharmacist personal religious preferences.  It is not the action of refusing to sell the medication that was at issue.  It's the reason for refusing to sell it that is the issue.  A good analogy is employment.  You can refuse to hire people but you can't refuse to hire them because of their race.  There would have never been a court case nor would there have been this thread had pharmacist told the customer he did not stock the drug because there was not sufficient demand or any other reason other than his religious beliefs.*
> ...



Not complete freedom.

For example, you can't perform ritualistic animal sacrifice.  You also cannot refuse to photograph the wedding of a lesbian couple on the grounds that you have a religious objection to homosexuality.  And now we have this case.  I guess more and more what the law (and by law I mean judicial precedent), is saying is that religion cannot be used as an excuse to discriminate.  In the case of the photographer I think that's going too far, in the case of healthcare providers I'm more amenable to the trend.


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## Quantum Windbag (Jul 17, 2010)

Againsheila said:


> Quantum Windbag said:
> 
> 
> > CurveLight said:
> ...



Yet you think it is permissible to force pharmacies to stock, and sell, meds that do not fit into their business plan. You do know that there is a word for people who do that type of thing.


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## Flopper (Jul 17, 2010)

Againsheila said:


> Flopper said:
> 
> 
> > *The court did not rule that pharmacies must sell Plan .  The court ruled that the pharmacy can not refuse to sell the drug based on the pharmacist personal religious preferences.  It is not the action of refusing to sell the medication that was at issue.  It's the reason for refusing to sell it that is the issue.  A good analogy is employment.  You can refuse to hire people but you can't refuse to hire them because of their race.  There would have never been a court case nor would there have been this thread had pharmacist told the customer he did not stock the drug because there was not sufficient demand or any other reason other than his religious beliefs.*
> ...


*You certainly have the freedom to practice your religion but if you are licensed to sell medicine, you can't deny people medication because of your religious belief just as a doctor can't refuse to render life saving measures on the sabbath because of his religious belief or a lawyer can't break attorney client privilege because of religious beliefs.  Before entering the profession, people should consider whether the responsibilities of the job would be in conflict with their religious beliefs.  If so, maybe they should consider a different career.*


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## Againsheila (Jul 17, 2010)

Quantum Windbag said:


> Againsheila said:
> 
> 
> > Quantum Windbag said:
> ...



Actually, I'm against forcing the pharmacies to sell certain meds based on their religious beliefs, but then I think people should have freedom of religion in this country.


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## Againsheila (Jul 17, 2010)

Flopper said:


> Againsheila said:
> 
> 
> > Flopper said:
> ...



Doctors have the right to refuse to do abortions, why can't pharmacists refuse to sell an abortion pill?


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## Quantum Windbag (Jul 17, 2010)

Againsheila said:


> Quantum Windbag said:
> 
> 
> > Againsheila said:
> ...



You know something? No matter how often I do this, I am always tempted to act like it didn't happen. Thank you for helping me, yet again, to remember that I make mistakes and assume things about people that are not true.

My apologies for misinterpreting your position.


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## Contumacious (Jul 17, 2010)

Againsheila said:


> Doctors have the right to refuse to do abortions, why can't pharmacists refuse to sell an abortion pill?



Not for long.

*Obama Hellcare has begun cracking down on Doctors - the federal government -and not the doctors - will determine what's best for the patients.*

.


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## Againsheila (Jul 17, 2010)

Dang,...I'm gonna have to retake that Red Cross First Aid Class again, aren't I?  I can see Doctor's are gonna be scarce and I don't blame them for leaving the business.


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## Flopper (Jul 17, 2010)

Againsheila said:


> Flopper said:
> 
> 
> > Againsheila said:
> ...


*Good question.  The law says that no doctor or nurse must help with an abortion if he/she has a moral objection to the procedure.  I guess doctors have more clout than pharmacist.  There is an argument as to whether Plan B is abortion or birth control, however I will not get into that controversy.*


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## Sarah G (Jul 18, 2010)

Againsheila said:


> Flopper said:
> 
> 
> > Againsheila said:
> ...



Plan B isn't an abortion pill because you take it before a pregnancy occurs.  If you are pregnant, Plan B doesn't work.


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## Charles_Main (Jul 18, 2010)

Sarah G said:


> Againsheila said:
> 
> 
> > Flopper said:
> ...



Um that depends on when you think pregnancy occurs. As I understand it the drug works by preventing the already fertilized egg from implanting in the uterus. I am sure there are some hard core Religious right types that would think that even that is wrong.


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## Sarah G (Jul 18, 2010)

Charles_Main said:


> Sarah G said:
> 
> 
> > Againsheila said:
> ...



I'm sure there are pharmacists who think it is still wrong but then we have to revisit whether they would also want the pharmacy to stop selling all contraception.


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## Charles_Main (Jul 18, 2010)

Sarah G said:


> Charles_Main said:
> 
> 
> > Sarah G said:
> ...



Not so sure about that. In the minds of many I am sure there is a big difference between preventing fertilization with contraceptives, and causing a fertilized egg to basically instantly miscarry. 

There are those who believe life begins at conception but are not opposed to blocking conception. I think they should be able to opt out of selling it.


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## Sarah G (Jul 18, 2010)

Charles_Main said:


> Sarah G said:
> 
> 
> > Charles_Main said:
> ...



It works the same way.  If you take a number of birth control pills the morning after, you get the same result.  I don't know the effectiveness of either but they work the same way.



> Prescription birth control pills work for Emergency Contraception
> 
> Plan B is one brand of EC. It has two progesterone pills.
> 
> ...



What remains is the religious argument about all of it and no pharmacist sits in judgement of that.


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## JBeukema (Jul 18, 2010)

manifold said:


> You also cannot refuse to photograph the wedding of a lesbian couple on the grounds that you have a religious objection to homosexuality.



Who the fuck passed a law like that?



> And now we have this case.  I guess more and more what the law (and by law I mean judicial precedent), is saying is that religion cannot be used as an excuse to discriminate.



No. it's being used to harass the religious by stripping them of the right choose with whom top do business. If I'm a photographer and I don't want to accept your contract/job, that's my loss. my reasons are my own and none of your concern. Find someone else who likes money.

If I choose not to sell orange soda, latex barriers, condoms, opiates, country music CDs, or anything else, then you're free to go someplace else to purchase those goods from someone who likes making money.


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## JBeukema (Jul 18, 2010)

Flopper said:


> Againsheila said:
> 
> 
> > Flopper said:
> ...




Not carrying product _x_ =/= an ER doctor refusing to treat a patient.


Since when is a responsibility of being a business owner selling whatever the Party tells you to?


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## JBeukema (Jul 18, 2010)

Flopper said:


> Againsheila said:
> 
> 
> > Flopper said:
> ...



By definition, it's not, since it prevents a pregnancy rather than aborting one.

Pregnancy begins with implantation. Untiul the blastocyst implants, the woman is not pregnant. By definition. 

Implantation (usu. in the uterine wall, if all goes as it's supposed to) = impregnantion


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## JBeukema (Jul 18, 2010)

Charles_Main said:


> Sarah G said:
> 
> 
> > Againsheila said:
> ...




That's like arguing over 'whether you think Earth is flat'

Such matters are not subject to opinion.


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## CurveLight (Jul 18, 2010)

Contumacious said:


> CurveLight said:
> 
> 
> > Plus, I was responding to immie's claim that all Americans should have the freedom to do business with only those they choose.
> ...




You got bitch slapped so stop whining and dragging it out.


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## CurveLight (Jul 18, 2010)

Againsheila said:


> You mean, we don't have freedom of religion in this country?




Now that is a horrible analogy.  This has nothing to do with freedom of religion.


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## Care4all (Jul 18, 2010)

If these same pharmacies rejecting the morning after pill for "religious reasons" also rejected selling birth control pills, then maybe this would make sense....they are ONE AND THE SAME concoction?  both prevent the egg from attaching to the uterus if it is fertilized....most fertilized eggs do not make it to gestation naturally, as it is, from what I understand?

Both prevent pregnancy.

also, what about frozen embryos?  Those are fertilized eggs....conception has occurred with them....should they never be discarded, even if the parents want no more children?  Would you save a frozen embryo in a clinic fire, before you would save the employees working in the clinic?


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## Screaming Eagle (Jul 18, 2010)

CurveLight said:


> Againsheila said:
> 
> 
> > You mean, we don't have freedom of religion in this country?
> ...



Yes it does. They are forcing business owners to act in a way opposed to their religious beliefs.


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## Screaming Eagle (Jul 18, 2010)

Care4all said:


> If these same pharmacies rejecting the morning after pill for "religious reasons" also rejected selling birth control pills, then maybe this would make sense....they are ONE AND THE SAME concoction?  both prevent the egg from attaching to the uterus if it is fertilized....most fertilized eggs do not make it to gestation naturally, as it is, from what I understand?
> 
> Both prevent pregnancy.
> 
> also, what about frozen embryos?  Those are fertilized eggs....conception has occurred with them....should they never be discarded, even if the parents want no more children?  Would you save a frozen embryo in a clinic fire, before you would save the employees working in the clinic?



I'm sure not all, but I bet at least some of these pharmacies do not sell birth control pills either.


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## Screaming Eagle (Jul 18, 2010)

I'm against the government telling businesses what services and goods they must deliver in any industry. I would think that in America that wouldn't be something we would have to be fighting over.


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## AquaAthena (Jul 18, 2010)

FA_Q2 said:


> A new law here in Washington forces pharmacies to carry and sell the Plan B pill.  Owners of several pharmacies have filed lawsuit based on the freedom of religion claiming that Plan B is against their beliefs and they refuse to sell the contraceptive.  Lawmakers are contemplating changing the law to read that they do not have to carry Plan B if they refer customers to a nearby store that does sell the pill.
> 
> I wonder what the take on this concept is here.  I am somewhat taken aback by this as I would have thought that it would naturally be the right of the business owner to decide what he or she sells.  What right does the state have to mandate that a particular business sells anything.  I understand regulation and placing limitations on items that a business is allowed to sell but forcing one to sell something seems over the top.  What are your thoughts?
> 
> ...



I agree that the owners of businesses should have the right to carry and sell anything legal they want. In a free market society, it would be that way, but in a socialist society, it will be the government's way...


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## CurveLight (Jul 18, 2010)

Screaming Eagle said:


> CurveLight said:
> 
> 
> > Againsheila said:
> ...



Go learn what freedom of religion means dumbass.


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## Againsheila (Jul 18, 2010)

Sarah G said:


> Againsheila said:
> 
> 
> > Flopper said:
> ...



I need more info on Plan B.  Do you take it before or after sex?  Does it prevent conception?  Or prevent the already fertilized egg from implanting in the womb?  I think those are two different things.


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## Againsheila (Jul 18, 2010)

JBeukema said:


> Flopper said:
> 
> 
> > Againsheila said:
> ...



For many religious people, myself included, life begins at conception.  Therefore, preventing implantation is abortion.


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## JBeukema (Jul 18, 2010)

Care4all said:


> If these same pharmacies rejecting the morning after pill for "religious reasons" also rejected selling birth control pills, then maybe this would make sense....they are ONE AND THE SAME concoction?  both prevent the egg from attaching to the uterus if it is fertilized....most fertilized eggs do not make it to gestation naturally, as it is, from what I understand?
> 
> Both prevent pregnancy.




And? If I don't sell beer because I don't want a bunch of drunks coming in at night yet I sell wine  should I be forced to sell Budweiser?

What does their stupidity have to do with their right to run their business as they please and decide whether or not they wish to sell a given product?


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## JBeukema (Jul 18, 2010)

Againsheila said:


> JBeukema said:
> 
> 
> > Flopper said:
> ...




Then talk to your god, as he's the greatest abortionist in history.


> embryo loss in assisted reproduction is less frequent than  in natural  pregnancy, in which more than half of all  fertilized eggs either fail  to implant or are otherwise lost.



NEJM -- Embryo Ethics -- The Moral Logic of Stem-Cell  Research




> about 15% of all recognized pregnancies end in spontaneous abortions,  usually during the first 12 weeks..l.
> 
> At least 15% of zygotes and blastocysts abort... another 30 per cent of  women abort very early, unaware that they were pregnant... the overall _early  spontaneous abortion rate  _is thought to be about 45 per cent...
> 
> [it is estimated that] of the 70-75 per cent of blastocysts that  implant, only 58 per cent survive to the end of the second week. [It is  further estimated that] 16 per cent of this latter group would be  abnormal and would abort in a week or so...



Source: _The Developing Human: Clinically Oriented Embryology (5th  Edition)_


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## FA_Q2 (Jul 18, 2010)

Flopper said:


> *The court did not rule that pharmacies must sell Plan .  The court ruled that the pharmacy can not refuse to sell the drug based on the pharmacist personal religious preferences.  It is not the action of refusing to sell the medication that was at issue.  It's the reason for refusing to sell it that is the issue.  A good analogy is employment.  You can refuse to hire people but you can't refuse to hire them because of their race.  There would have never been a court case nor would there have been this thread had pharmacist told the customer he did not stock the drug because there was not sufficient demand or any other reason other than his religious beliefs.*
> [/B]



I am getting tired of this fallacy being printed here over and over again.  I will have to use bigger letters than last time I guess.


> In a case that could affect policy across the western U.S., a supermarket pharmacy owner in Olympia, Wash., failed in a bid to block *2007 regulations that required all Washington pharmacies to stock and dispense the pills.*


NO WHERE DOES IT SAY A PHARMACIST CAN REFUSE TO STOCK THE PILL FOR ANY REASON.  That includes profitability, religion or lack of interest in the community it is being sold in.  YOU ARE REQUIRED TO STOCK THE DAMN PILL NO MATTER WHAT.  If this article is lying then YOU need to source something that makes that clear.  The fact is there needs to be a breach for a lawsuit to take place and that is what the suit was based on.  The requirement is regardless of reason, ALL pharmacists MUST stock and dispense the pill.

AND NOT ONE PERSON HAS MET MY POINT YET.  Why is it so important for a pharmacy to stock the plan b pill that there needs to be a LAW put in place that requires pharmacies to sell it when there is no such law for chemotherapy medication.  Why does preventing a possible pregnancy come before the life of my child and where are his rights if you are so concerned that it is a right to have access to plan b at another's PRIVATE business.


> Quantum Windbag said:
> 
> 
> > Pharmacies do not have the storage space to carry every possible drug that might be needed, they have to make choices based on their community and their profits. You want to take that ability away from them, and force them to carry something just because you equate it with women's rights.
> ...


I have a feeling that the only reason that there are people here defending this is because it is related to abortion.  They are all up in arms when someone even whispers about taking a woman's right to choose away but somehow that right trumps the rights of EVERYONE ELSE.  If that were not the case, someone would have stepped up to the plate already.


Immanuel said:


> So, what you are saying is that as long as I don't give a reason for not selling it, I don't have to sell it?
> 
> Okay, works for me.  If I were a pharmacist, I would simply refuse to sell it and not give my reasons for doing so.
> 
> Immie


Unless he can source this though, he is incorrect.  As noted above, the article clearly states there is a requirement to stock and dispense.  


Againsheila said:


> Sarah G said:
> 
> 
> > Againsheila said:
> ...


You take it after sex and it can stop fertilization but it ALSO stops a fertilized egg from implanting.  It does the second incase the first was to late.  The BC pill DOES NOT do this unless taken in a much larger dosage (sometimes 10 times that which you normally take).  The fact is there are a myriad of normal items that can be taken in large quantities (and also a number of activities) that will also induce a miscarriage.  That does not mean those would be aginst the religion of the sellers to dispence.
Vitamin C - Self-Help
Just because vitamin C can cause a miscarriage does not mean that anyone will object to its sale because that is not the regular use of the product.  The same goes with BC pills, they are not meant to stop an egg from implanting even though larger quantities can cause that effect.  Stopping a fertilized egg from attaching to the wall is where the distaste comes in for some that see conception as the start of life.  It is not abortion.  It was mentioned earlier that pregnancy is not triggered by the fertilization of an egg.  That is even possible OUTSIDE the womb.  Pregnancy occurs when a fertilized egg is implanted in the uterus wall.  That makes plan b a definite no on whether or not it is abortion but does not give a definite stance for those that believe life begins at conception.


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## ConHog (Jul 18, 2010)

IF I owned a pharmacy I would absolutely refuse to sell this pill just because of the government trying to force me to do so, and I don't have any feelings on the pill itself. 

Do you folks not care about freedom at all?


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## Quantum Windbag (Jul 18, 2010)

Care4all said:


> If these same pharmacies rejecting the morning after pill for "religious reasons" also rejected selling birth control pills, then maybe this would make sense....they are ONE AND THE SAME concoction?  both prevent the egg from attaching to the uterus if it is fertilized....most fertilized eggs do not make it to gestation naturally, as it is, from what I understand?
> 
> Both prevent pregnancy.
> 
> also, what about frozen embryos?  Those are fertilized eggs....conception has occurred with them....should they never be discarded, even if the parents want no more children?  Would you save a frozen embryo in a clinic fire, before you would save the employees working in the clinic?



Fine, we will tell them they can not sell Plan B if they also not sell any form of BC. Do you think this will awaken them to the error of their ways and they will then sell Plan B, or do you think they will simply stop carrying birth control entirely?

But wait, that is not an option, because even if they already meet you qualification of not selling birth control, which is entirely possible if the pharmacist happens to be a Mennonite, he still has to sell Plan B by the dictates of the state of Washington. That makes your position false because it does not apply.


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## Quantum Windbag (Jul 18, 2010)

CurveLight said:


> Screaming Eagle said:
> 
> 
> > CurveLight said:
> ...



Well, according to SCOTUS and Congress, it means a person can not preform an abortion if they have a moral objection to it. It also means that a person can refuse to sell tobacco and alcohol, even though these are legal products that anyone can buy. It even means that a pharmacist working for a pharmacy can refuse to dispense medications that that pharmacy sells, and they cannot be fired for it.

Yet somehow you do not think it means that a pharmacist can refuse to sell something if he happens to own the pharmacy himself. I must admit to some confusion about this, but I am sure you can clear it up.


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## Sarah G (Jul 18, 2010)

You people seem to forget that all of your silly arguments have been heard and the pharmacies don't get to refuse a sale of Plan B for religious reasons.


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## ConHog (Jul 18, 2010)

Quantum Windbag said:


> CurveLight said:
> 
> 
> > Screaming Eagle said:
> ...



Are you really and truly expecting a rationale discussion with CircleJerk? Especially about freedom of religion, this moron truly believed that the BSA should not have the right to exclude gays on a religious basis.


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## ConHog (Jul 18, 2010)

Sarah G said:


> You people seem to forget that all of your silly arguments have been heard and the pharmacies don't get to refuse a sale of Plan B for religious reasons.



You seem to forget that religion shouldn't even be a factor here. If I own an auto lot and sell Toyotas, should the government be able to say "It would be better for the country if you sold GM's so start selling GM's?"

I would hope you would say no to that.


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## JBeukema (Jul 18, 2010)

Sarah G said:


> You people seem to forget that all of your silly arguments have been heard and the pharmacies don't get to refuse a sale of Plan B for religious reasons.




So I have more rights than another man, simply because he happens to be a superstitious fool?

If a man has a right to do or to not do something, he has that right regardless of  race, creed, color,  national origin, sex, political affiliation, or beliefs.

Or are civil rights only for black lesbian women?


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## ConHog (Jul 18, 2010)

JBeukema said:


> Sarah G said:
> 
> 
> > You people seem to forget that all of your silly arguments have been heard and the pharmacies don't get to refuse a sale of Plan B for religious reasons.
> ...



Bingo, that is exactly what they are saying. Fuck a white Christian man. Let's push our agenda on him.


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## Care4all (Jul 18, 2010)

What was the higher courts reasoning?


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## JBeukema (Jul 19, 2010)

JBeukema said:


> manifold said:
> 
> 
> > JB indirectly supports socialism and he doesn't even realize it.
> ...


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## ConHog (Jul 19, 2010)

JBeukema said:


> JBeukema said:
> 
> 
> > manifold said:
> ...




Just another example of a moron who doesn't even understand the terms they throw around JB.


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## Cecilie1200 (Jul 19, 2010)

xotoxi said:


> FA_Q2 said:
> 
> 
> > xotoxi said:
> ...



Who are you to tell anyone else what his conscience does or doesn't dictate?


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## Cecilie1200 (Jul 19, 2010)

Luissa said:


> I bet they have no problem selling viagra.



What's it to you if they do or don't?  If you want to talk about hypocrisy, how about the people who prattle on about "not my place to legislate my morality to someone else about abortion", and then think it's peachy to legislate their morality to pharmacists?  If you have no business "forcing" someone to have a baby, how do you think you have any business LITERALLY forcing someone to sell products they don't like?


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## Cecilie1200 (Jul 19, 2010)

FA_Q2 said:


> This is NOT a thread about abortion, if you want to cover that open a new thread and pleas stop hijacking this one.  This thread is about pharmacists being forced to sell a specific product.



Yes, let's keep those uncomfortable analogies and parallels out of this.  We're busy calling OTHER people hypocrites, not engaging in self-analysis.


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## Cecilie1200 (Jul 19, 2010)

LuckyDan said:


> jillian said:
> 
> 
> > FA_Q2 said:
> ...



And how would that work if I said, "Want an abortion?  Stop living in a state that doesn't allow them.  Pack up and move"?  I'm betting THAT would be outrageous.  Apparently, there's only ONE right that people should universally be allowed to practice anywhere in the country.  Everyone who wants to practice the ones actually enumerated in the Constitution, too fucking bad.  Go find the appropriate "civil rights zone" or shut up.


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## Cecilie1200 (Jul 19, 2010)

CurveLight said:


> If Pharms don't want public responsibility they need to find a new profession.  It is not up to them to control others' live through their own self righteous glass gavels.



I love it.  It's not up to THEM to "control others' lives through their own self-righteous glass gavels", but it's apparently up to YOU to control THEIR lives by saying, "Either abandon YOUR religious and moral ideals and sell the items I think are appropriate, or find another profession."

Seriously, did you have to take special lessons to be this egregiously hypocritical?  I just find it hard to believe it could just be natural talent.


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## Cecilie1200 (Jul 19, 2010)

CurveLight said:


> Immanuel said:
> 
> 
> > FA_Q2 said:
> ...



And I'M the kind of asshole who would take one look at you and your dipshit sign and decide to shop there exclusively.  I do so hate having to share a store with ignorant riff-raff.


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## Cecilie1200 (Jul 19, 2010)

Flopper said:


> Immanuel said:
> 
> 
> > Flopper said:
> ...



I must have missed the part where a pharmacist's license REQUIRES him to give up his civil rights and become a mindless, obedient slave of the masses or the government.  Is that in the really fine print?


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## Cecilie1200 (Jul 19, 2010)

topspin said:


> I love that law. The religious morons who don't like it could move to a state that bans that pill.



And I'm sure you were a BIG supporter of the suggestion that people who wanted abortions should pick up and move to states that allowed them prior to Roe v. Wade (or would have been, if you weren't actually old enough to remember it).


----------



## Cecilie1200 (Jul 19, 2010)

CurveLight said:


> I have a feeling many whiners are confusing plan b for the ru486 pill.  Anyone bitching about plan b should also be bitching about all forms of birth control.



Because you were granted the power and right to dictate other people's beliefs and consciences to them when?


----------



## Cecilie1200 (Jul 19, 2010)

Sarah G said:


> CurveLight said:
> 
> 
> > I have a feeling many whiners are confusing plan b for the ru486 pill.  Anyone bitching about plan b should also be bitching about all forms of birth control.
> ...



Funny how "Constitutional right" is never "the right angle" with liberals unless it's 1) a right that doesn't actually appear in the Constitution, or 2) a liberal asserting it.

When does someone OTHER than abortion activists get to claim protection for freedom of choice?


----------



## Cecilie1200 (Jul 19, 2010)

CurveLight said:


> judyd said:
> 
> 
> > I'm pretty liberal on a lot of issues, but this one just doesn't seem right.  I am not comfortable with a retail establishment being forced to sell anything, especially if they don't feel it is morally right.  Even Walmart at times has refused to carry music or DVDs they feel are objectionable.
> ...



How about "I don't care, I don't want to sell it, who the hell are you to make my decisions for me?" mode?


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## Cecilie1200 (Jul 19, 2010)

CurveLight said:


> saveliberty said:
> 
> 
> > Care4all said:
> ...



Right back atcha, hypocrite.  I've heard you babble about "not forcing morality on people", but strangely enough, you and your compatriots always seem to be the only ones ACTUALLY forcing anyone to ACTUALLY do anything.

Please show me anywhere in "the rules" that says, "Operating a business in the public arena means the government gets to dictate what you have to sell."


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## Cecilie1200 (Jul 19, 2010)

Sarah G said:


> Againsheila said:
> 
> 
> > xotoxi said:
> ...



So what?  Where does the Constitution say anything about "free exercise of religion . . . as long as Sarah G approves of it"?


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## Cecilie1200 (Jul 19, 2010)

CurveLight said:


> judyd said:
> 
> 
> > CurveLight said:
> ...



You wouldn't know discrimination if it crawled up your pants leg and bit you on your left ass cheek.  Discriminating against a product is NOT the same as discriminating against a customer, you twit.

And no one needs Plan B so "immediately" that they can't spare the time to drive to the next pharmacy, dumbass.


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## Cecilie1200 (Jul 19, 2010)

ConHog said:


> CurveLight said:
> 
> 
> > Immanuel said:
> ...



I frankly trust the common people to do a better job of regulating such behavior than I do the government, anyway.


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## Cecilie1200 (Jul 19, 2010)

Sarah G said:


> Quantum Windbag said:
> 
> 
> > Sarah G said:
> ...



Well, geez.  Why don't we just replace pharmacists with computerized medication ATMs, since you've decided that you have the right to reduce them to mindless automatons with no rights and no humanity, who exist only to do the bidding of the government and people like you?

And while we're at it, how would you view it if I said, "It's not the job of a woman to be judge, jury, and executioner.  Bearing children is what women do.  A rule has to be created to let them know that.

It's arrogant to attempt to tell someone they can't exist because you're too stupid to know when conception is (that line was particularly funny, coming from you).

They need to shut up and do their work."

Who the fuck are you to tell anyone they have an obligation to live their lives to suit YOUR moral dictates, you uppity, arrogant hypocrite?


----------



## Cecilie1200 (Jul 19, 2010)

Sarah G said:


> Immanuel said:
> 
> 
> > Sarah G said:
> ...



Funny how people like you are so contemptuous of blind, morally-vacuous corporate greed . . . until it suddenly supports what you want.  Then it's the only acceptable behavior.

And honey, don't flatter yourself that you are "the female side of the argument".  You're the Sarah G side of the argument, so don't project your shit onto the rest of us.  Just because my reproductive system resembles yours doesn't mean my brain does.  Thank God.


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## Cecilie1200 (Jul 19, 2010)

Flopper said:


> Againsheila said:
> 
> 
> > Flopper said:
> ...



Actually, dumb shit, my doctor DOES refuse to treat people on Sunday.  His office is CLOSED, and his ass is in church, then on the golf course.  If I want medical care of ANY kind on the Sabbath, I have to go find a doctor who's willing to work that day.  And attorney-client privilege is not an appropriate analogy.  The correct analogy would be refusing certain types of clients, which they do all the time.

Where do you get off deciding that people in certain professions are obligated to do their jobs and live their lives according to YOUR moral dictates?  Last time I checked, we abolished slavery in this country.


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## Cecilie1200 (Jul 19, 2010)

Sarah G said:


> You people seem to forget that all of your silly arguments have been heard and the pharmacies don't get to refuse a sale of Plan B for religious reasons.



Yes, and everyone knows that legality determines morality . . . for vacuous fools who have no moral compass of their own.  Thank God there've always been some people in this country who don't just shrug and accept court decisions as the final word.  Otherwise, we'd still have slaves.

No wonder you're so fond of the idea of turning pharmacists into brainless, controlled sheep.  You already are one yourself.


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## Sarah G (Jul 19, 2010)

Cecilie1200, take your meds...


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## JBeukema (Jul 19, 2010)

Sarah G said:


> Cecilie1200, take your meds...


A brilliant rebuttal


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## Sarah G (Jul 19, 2010)

I've been rebutting seriously in this thread for a couple of days and all I get are personal attacks in return.  We all have our opinions on this and if you or anyone don't like mine, tough shit.

I don't like yours either.

Fair enough?


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## JBeukema (Jul 19, 2010)

Sarah G said:


> We all have our opinions on this and if you or anyone don't like mine, tough shit.
> 
> I don't like yours either.
> 
> Fair enough?




You don't like the free market and liberty? You don't like not forcing people to be mindless automatons opbeying the Party's directives?


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## JBeukema (Jul 19, 2010)

Do show us where you've rebutted freedom.


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## CurveLight (Jul 19, 2010)

Cecilie1200 said:


> CurveLight said:
> 
> 
> > judyd said:
> ...




You're always such a dumbass.  Did you know not everyone has a car?  Did you know not everyone lives close to five pharmacies?  There's a lot more you don't know but it would lock the entire internet from bandwidth overload if you were given that info all at once.


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## CurveLight (Jul 19, 2010)

Cecilie1200 said:


> CurveLight said:
> 
> 
> > judyd said:
> ...





Cecilie1200 said:


> Sarah G said:
> 
> 
> > Immanuel said:
> ...



It would be absolutely impossible to confuse a self righteous **** like you for Sarah.  Or a real woman.


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## CurveLight (Jul 19, 2010)

Cecilie1200 said:


> Flopper said:
> 
> 
> > Againsheila said:
> ...



I've always found it hilarious about the whole Sabbath thing.  Self righteous ***** won't work on the Sabbath to "honor God" but often find places to go, like golf courses and restaurants, where their presence forces others to work on the Sabbath.


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## CurveLight (Jul 19, 2010)

Cecilie1200 said:


> Sarah G said:
> 
> 
> > You people seem to forget that all of your silly arguments have been heard and the pharmacies don't get to refuse a sale of Plan B for religious reasons.
> ...



Why do ***** like you insist on bullshit responses?  Nobody is advocating pharms must adhere to a full stock list you dishonest fuck.  Mandating emergency drugs is no less reasonable than speed limits, equal rights, or any of the other thousands of laws in place mediating the public realm.


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## Care4all (Jul 19, 2010)

Screaming Eagle said:


> I'm against the government telling businesses what services and goods they must deliver in any industry. I would think that in America that wouldn't be something we would have to be fighting over.



home made 100% proof MOONSHINE, why can't liquor stores sell such?

Playboy and penthouse, in plain view, at the grocery store check out counter, why can't the business sell such if they wanted to?

Putting up a sex toy shop right next to a school?  Or in Nevada, a brothel right next to a school?

Or a strip joint right next to a school?

Prescription drugs, sold over the counter?

Is it okay to tell a business what the CAN NOT SELL and if this is all okay, why?  

Isn't this gvt. interfering with what the private business may want to do or sell in their establishment as well?

If this were an emergency medication that prevented a person that had a heart attack from getting another one, would it be okay for the gvt to force the pharmacy to sell it, or would this be wrong as well?

I can understand the objection of the pharmacy, especially if they were Catholic owners...who, for religious reasons, are suppose to be against any kind of man made birth control...sponges, BC pills, spermicides and rubbers...but to pick and choose what pregnancy deterrent that they don't want to carry due to religious objection should at least be consistent imho.


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## manifold (Jul 19, 2010)

JBeukema said:


> JBeukema said:
> 
> 
> > manifold said:
> ...




It isn't.  But it can very easily promote socialism if it creates an unmet need that the government is called upon to satisfy.

I thought it was a pretty easy concept to grasp, but I often overestimate these things.


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## chanel (Jul 19, 2010)

Care4all said:


> Screaming Eagle said:
> 
> 
> > I'm against the government telling businesses what services and goods they must deliver in any industry. I would think that in America that wouldn't be something we would have to be fighting over.
> ...



You make a good point care.  But using the same logic of "community standards", wouldn't it be foolish to offer this in a senior citizen community?  Or in the middle of Utah?  I'm sure it has an expiration date.  Why force pharmacists to stock a product that none of their customers need or want, and then have to throw it out?

Most business owners will provide products that their customers request.  I'm sure we are only talking about a handful of people who might not offer it in their store on religious grounds.  The others may simply not have a market for it.


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## FA_Q2 (Jul 19, 2010)

Cecilie1200 said:


> FA_Q2 said:
> 
> 
> > This is NOT a thread about abortion, if you want to cover that open a new thread and pleas stop hijacking this one.  This thread is about pharmacists being forced to sell a specific product.
> ...



What is your point?  It is in no way 'uncomfortable' and I love a good abortion debate.  I was very vocal and up front here on that subject before but this particular topic is not about abortion at all but rather about pharmacies being forced to sell a specific product.  Abortion has a tendency to overshadow the actual issue.


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## FA_Q2 (Jul 19, 2010)

CurveLight said:


> Cecilie1200 said:
> 
> 
> > CurveLight said:
> ...



Go here and ship overnight

Or perhaps we should mandate that all stores carry plan b and deliver it to homes just in case they have no feet and no transportation.

Fail.  You are responsible for yourself and the fact you have no car does not mean you need to intrude on my rights to choose what I sell and do not sell.  Use a damn bus if you can't drive or get it on the web.


----------



## FA_Q2 (Jul 19, 2010)

Care4all said:


> Screaming Eagle said:
> 
> 
> > I'm against the government telling businesses what services and goods they must deliver in any industry. I would think that in America that wouldn't be something we would have to be fighting over.
> ...



MAJOR FAIL.  All the items you are referring to are regulations that control weather or not you are ALLOWED to sell items not that you MUST sell an item.  They are complete opposites.  There is good reason that there are regulations preventing all stores from selling a specific item such as those that are ILLEGAL.  There is no parallel to the idea that they are REQUIRED to sell something.  Same goes for the regulations on HOW to dispense a specific item.  In the end, it is still the stores right to choose if it will carry a legal item and that is how it should be.  This law takes that right.


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## saveliberty (Jul 19, 2010)

FA_Q2 said:


> Fail.  You are responsible for yourself and the fact you have no car does not mean you need to intrude on my rights to choose what I sell and do not sell.  Use a damn bus if you can't drive or get it on the web.



The lack of responsibility most likely precipitated the need to begin with.  I say give them the plan C.  They take a pill and drop dead.


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## ConHog (Jul 19, 2010)

Care4all said:


> Screaming Eagle said:
> 
> 
> > I'm against the government telling businesses what services and goods they must deliver in any industry. I would think that in America that wouldn't be something we would have to be fighting over.
> ...



So , you're such an intellectual midget you can't differentiate regulating from forcing someone to carry a product? Nice......


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## ConHog (Jul 19, 2010)

CurveLight said:


> Cecilie1200 said:
> 
> 
> > Sarah G said:
> ...



Another Circlejerk fail , imagine that.

Seriously , why would this surprise anyone though? I mean a government that can FORCE you to buy medical insurance can surely force you to sell Plan B. Next up Obama realizes GM needs more sales so he orders that everyone much buy a new Chevy pickup.


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## CurveLight (Jul 19, 2010)

FA_Q2 said:


> CurveLight said:
> 
> 
> > Cecilie1200 said:
> ...



I didn't say I don't have a vehicle you dumbfuck. I was doing something really foreign to selfish fucks like you and thinking of other people.


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## CurveLight (Jul 19, 2010)

Another PSA:

Plan B is not an abortion pill. It is emergency contraception. If a pregnancy has already occurred then Plan B is as useful as a Bush supporter in a Library.


----------



## ConHog (Jul 19, 2010)

CurveLight said:


> FA_Q2 said:
> 
> 
> > CurveLight said:
> ...



Funny that you claim to think of others , when the fact is , you don't. Oh you might use others to support YOUR agenda, but you don't EVER think of others. It's all about what CircleJerk wants. 

Theoretical gay that might want to be a Boy Scout , CircleJerk can use that
Theoretical woman who can only find a way to get to ONE pharmacy? CircleJerk can use that to
Etc , etc, etc.

Again, tell me of a single person in this country who lives more than hour from a chain pharmacy. Oh , there isn't one. The chain pharmacies of course will carry this pill.


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## CurveLight (Jul 19, 2010)

saveliberty said:


> FA_Q2 said:
> 
> 
> > Fail.  You are responsible for yourself and the fact you have no car does not mean you need to intrude on my rights to choose what I sell and do not sell.  Use a damn bus if you can't drive or get it on the web.
> ...



You're such an ignorant fuck.  Let's say a couple uses a condom but it breaks.....plan b is an emergency contraception that would work even when people practiced safe sex.  But you go on living in your delusions of self righteousness you sick fuck.


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## JBeukema (Jul 19, 2010)

CurveLight said:


> Cecilie1200 said:
> 
> 
> > Sarah G said:
> ...


It's not a 'emergency drug'. You have up to 3 days according to the manufacturer and up to 5 days according to the links you morons posted to take it to  make up for the fact that you're a loose whore who's not smart enough to take BC, use a condom, or go to the Health Department, a hospital, Planned Parenthood, or another pharmacy.

Speed limits are to prevent you from killing someone else. This drug to to help ensure that if another life is present, it dies. To equate Plan B to speed limit laws is a sign of low intellect and unscrupulous character.


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## JBeukema (Jul 19, 2010)

Care4all said:


> Screaming Eagle said:
> 
> 
> > I'm against the government telling businesses what services and goods they must deliver in any industry. I would think that in America that wouldn't be something we would have to be fighting over.
> ...



Because moonshine is illegal. Equating laws preventing the sell of illegal goods with laws forcing businesses to carry certain products is evidence of low IQ and dishonest character.


> Playboy and penthouse, in plain view, at the grocery store check out counter, why can't the business sell such if they wanted to?



They can't have the nudity visible because it's illegal to have nudity visible in the public space. They can't have it accessible to minors because making it accessible to minors is illegal.

Equating laws that prevent the sell or accessibility of materials to person to whom it is illegal to sell them or make them accessible to laws forcing businesses keepers to sell what Die Staat mandates is evidence of low IQ and dishonest character.





> Putting up a sex toy shop right next to a school?  Or in Nevada, a brothel right next to a school?
> 
> Or a strip joint right next to a school?
> 
> Prescription drugs, sold over the counter?



See the above.


> If this were an emergency medication that prevented a person that had a heart attack from getting another one, would it be okay for the gvt to force the pharmacy to sell it, or would this be wrong as well?



Should ever business everywhere be forced to sell every drug, fire extinguishers, knives, Quick Clot, and anything else anyone might ever need? Or should this be a free country?


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## JBeukema (Jul 19, 2010)

manifold said:


> JBeukema said:
> 
> 
> > JBeukema said:
> ...



How am I creating any unmet need the government needs to satisfy?

You don't think any business owner will sell Plan B if it's not mandated at the point of a federal rifle and punishable by imprisonment to refuse to sell it? 

You understanding of how the market works leaves much to be desired.


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## manifold (Jul 19, 2010)

Are private schools required by law to include certain material in their curriculum?  I'm not certain, but I think they are.  And if so, is that not a similar type of regulation?


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## ConHog (Jul 19, 2010)

JBeukema said:


> CurveLight said:
> 
> 
> > Cecilie1200 said:
> ...


----------



## JBeukema (Jul 19, 2010)

ConHog said:


> Again, tell me of a single person in this country who lives more than hour from a chain pharmacy. Oh , there isn't one. The chain pharmacies of course will carry this pill.



Rural areas do exist.


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## ConHog (Jul 19, 2010)

manifold said:


> Are private schools required by law to include certain material in their curriculum?  I'm not certain, but I think they are.  And if so, is that not a similar type of regulation?



It's a strawman, but no they are not. Private schools ARE required to make sure there students can pass the same grade tests as their public school counterparts, but they are not required to teach certain curricula.  Reason? They are PRIVATE and therefor the government doesn't get that say.


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## ConHog (Jul 19, 2010)

JBeukema said:


> ConHog said:
> 
> 
> > Again, tell me of a single person in this country who lives more than hour from a chain pharmacy. Oh , there isn't one. The chain pharmacies of course will carry this pill.
> ...



Yes, I live in one, rural areas are Wal Mart's bread and butter.


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## CurveLight (Jul 19, 2010)

JBeukema said:


> CurveLight said:
> 
> 
> > Cecilie1200 said:
> ...



This pill does not kill a pregnancy you dumbfuck.

Since I am a man and can't get pregnant your attemtped ad hom is useless.  You dumbfuck.

It is an emergency contraception you dumbfuck. 

The manufacturer says you have up to three days because they are trying to sell their product you dumbfuck.

Pay attention dumbfuck.  If you take it four hours after sex versus three days, which time frame would be more effective you dumbfuck?  (Nevermind. You're a dumbfuck)

Thank you for reaffirming what I pointed out earlier that dumbfucks like you are against this because you are making moral judgments on women and since you hate women you want as much control over them as possible. (Yes it is possible to hate women no matter what gender one is you dumbfuck.)


----------



## CurveLight (Jul 19, 2010)

ConHog said:


> JBeukema said:
> 
> 
> > ConHog said:
> ...



Economic studies have shown walmarts in rural areas are detrimental to the economy.


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## manifold (Jul 19, 2010)

JBeukema said:


> You don't think any business owner will sell Plan B if it's not mandated at the point of a federal rifle and punishable by imprisonment to refuse to sell it?
> 
> You understanding of how the market works leaves much to be desired.



Your understanding of the varying cultures that exist in this country leaves a lot to be desired.

If the courts ruled in favor of this pharmacist, it's not beyond the realm of possibility to envision rural areas in bible country where pharmacists could actually be strong-armed into not stocking this drug.

Like I said, I'm not convinced that I support this law, but I'm certainly not willing to abandon pragmatic objectivity when considering it's relative pros & cons.


----------



## manifold (Jul 19, 2010)

ConHog said:


> manifold said:
> 
> 
> > Are private schools required by law to include certain material in their curriculum?  I'm not certain, but I think they are.  And if so, is that not a similar type of regulation?
> ...



I think you are wrong.

I'm pretty sure, for example, that Texas history is required for certain grade levels in Texas in both public and private schools.


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## JBeukema (Jul 19, 2010)

ConHog said:


> JBeukema said:
> 
> 
> > ConHog said:
> ...



Not the ones without enough nearby persons to warrant a store. Your original assertion, quoted above, was asinine.


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## manifold (Jul 19, 2010)

Licensed electricians are by law required to use materials that meet minimum safety/quality standards.

Damn those pesky regulations forcing them to stock and sell a particular product!


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## ConHog (Jul 19, 2010)

JBeukema said:


> ConHog said:
> 
> 
> > JBeukema said:
> ...



I don't believe it is. I have a hard time believing anyone in this country lives so far out that a WM or similar store isn't within an hour. I live rural, my nearest neighbor is 5 miles from me. Our local town has 4K people , there's a Wal Mart there. If I'm willing to drive an hour I can reach probably no less than 12 Wal Marts, 3 K Marts, like 5 Wal Greens, and probably a few others that I am not thinking of at the moment. 

The idea that some little mom and pop pharmacy is going to be the only option is just ludicrous.


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## JBeukema (Jul 19, 2010)

CurveLight said:


> JBeukema said:
> 
> 
> > CurveLight said:
> ...




You don't 'kill a pregnancy', moron. Nor did I ever claim that Plan B was a abortifacient. If a zygote does not implant in the uterine wall, it will die. Hence preventing implantation directly ensures the death of the zygote.

If you can't face the reality of what we're talking about, that's somethoing you need to work through with your local priest, bishop, or psychiatrist.


> The manufacturer says you have up to three days because they are trying to sell their product you dumbfuck.




And one of you morons provided a link that said 5 days.



> Pay attention dumbfuck.  If you take it four hours after sex versus three days, which time frame would be more effective you dumbfuck?  (Nevermind. You're a dumbfuck)



Your repeated namecalling reveals that you have in intelligent answerand implies a fundamental level of discomfort with what your support in this thread. This is not the thread for you to wrestle with whether you're a murdering sack of shit who's going to hell or not.  Start a thread in Religion and Ethics is you want assistance wrestling with that.

This thread is about forcing businesses to carry certain products instead of business owners being free to decide whether they wish to carry any given product.


> Thank you for reaffirming what I pointed out earlier that dumbfucks like you are against this because you are making moral judgments on women





You aware that I'm pro-choice and have defended that position in multiple abortion threads, right? care to try again.


> and since you hate women you want as much control over them as possible.





Perhaps you should lie down and rejoin the conversation when your feverdreams have passed.


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## JBeukema (Jul 19, 2010)

CurveLight said:


> ConHog said:
> 
> 
> > JBeukema said:
> ...


Interesting claim. Make a thread about it in the Economy forum and let's discuss it.


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## ConHog (Jul 19, 2010)

manifold said:


> Licensed electricians are by law required to use materials that meet minimum safety/quality standards.
> 
> Damn those pesky regulations forcing them to stock and sell a particular product!



You're right, they are forced to meet certain standards, but they are NOT required to carry certain products. They are left to their own devices as to how to meet those standards. Including the fact that they can tell customers, we don't carry any products so you have to provide all the materials, if they so wish.


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## JBeukema (Jul 19, 2010)

manifold said:


> JBeukema said:
> 
> 
> > You don't think any business owner will sell Plan B if it's not mandated at the point of a federal rifle and punishable by imprisonment to refuse to sell it?
> ...



Yes, because we've whole swathes of the bible belt where one cannot buy condoms 

Don't be a slut and there's no problem. Everyone here has voiced support for making it available at hospitals, esp. for assault victims.


----------



## Care4all (Jul 19, 2010)

ConHog said:


> Care4all said:
> 
> 
> > Screaming Eagle said:
> ...



I don't see a difference....if this were something like an emergency medication for those who have had a heart attack, to prevent them from immediately having another....I would make all pharmacies carry it, for emergency purposes.....if it were an asthma medication, that if taken would stop the patient from having another immediate debilitating asthma attack, I would make them carry it....they ARE licensed Pharmacies by the State, the owners knew such when they went in to business and emergency medications are something they should carry....drop viagra if they want to, even normal bc pills or carrying rubbers or sponges, but this as an emergency medication and as such, I have no problems with the pharmacies having to carry it for the community they service.....

Now chanel had a point, in a community with all senior citizens, why would the pharmacy have to carry it?  I suppose the answer, is to be consistent, to know in this emergency, you KNOW you can go to the pharmacy that services your community, and get it.

the nearest pharmacy to me is 3 miles, the next pharmacy is 15 miles, the family planning clinic is 22 miles.

I would love to get pregnant and have a baby with my husband, unfortunately I am not able to have children with him....so something like this, is NOT in any way for me....but i can see how it could be extremely useful for the public, who can get pregnant...to have this emergency measure available for them....the situation is already stressful enough....and the timing of taking this pill is critical for its effectiveness....the sooner, the more effective, the closer to 72 hours, the least effective.

When you are in business with the PUBLIC, you do have certain responsibilities to the public....if you are religious and think this emergency medication would violate your religion for some strange reason, then DON'T TAKE IT.

Businesses are TOLD by the government what they CAN NOT CARRY and sell ALL THE TIME....if that is not a government reach, then this isn't either....both affect the private business owner's business.


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## JBeukema (Jul 19, 2010)

manifold said:


> Licensed electricians are by law required to use materials that meet minimum safety/quality standards.
> 
> Damn those pesky regulations forcing them to stock and sell a particular product!




Equating laws that require you not wire my house so that I die when I flip a light switch to mandating businesses carry a given product is evidence of low IQ and shady character.

An electrician can decide whether or not to sell certain goods and services. A more accurate comparison is the FDA ensuring the product meets certain criteria before it may be sold and ensuring that those under 17 years of age need have a prescription to ensure product safety.


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## ConHog (Jul 19, 2010)

JBeukema said:


> manifold said:
> 
> 
> > JBeukema said:
> ...



LOL - I love it, Manifold just HAD to get a dig in on Christians didnt s/he? 

Manifolld, do you REALLY think Christians are going to be down at their local pharmacy standing in front of the door with wearing their church robes and beating a baton against their palm while yelling slut at every woman who looks like she might be there to buy this pill until they convince the owner not to carry it anymore?


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## JBeukema (Jul 19, 2010)

Care4all said:


> I don't see a difference....if this were something like an emergency medication for those who have had a heart attack, to prevent them from immediately having another....I would make all pharmacies carry it, for emergency purposes....




So no business owner will ever want to make a buck, requiring you to force all businesses to sell what you think the masses need.


Totalitarian socialism, anyone?





> the nearest pharmacy to me is 3 miles, the next pharmacy is 15 miles, the family planning clinic is 22 miles.



You're online. FA provided  a link to an online store.

Call Planned Parenthood and I'm sure they'll make sure you get what you need. Like them or not, they'll definitely help  a woman or girl get access to BC, including Plan B.




> Businesses are TOLD by the government what they CAN NOT CARRY and sell ALL THE TIME....if that is not a government reach, then this isn't either....both affect the private business owner's business.




Yes because being forced to sell what the Party thinks the masses need because noone could ever want to make money off it is _totally_ the same as not being able to sell RPGs at Wal*Mart.


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## ConHog (Jul 19, 2010)

Care4all said:


> ConHog said:
> 
> 
> > Care4all said:
> ...



oooh, a whole 22 miles? How ridiculous that you want to force an entire industry to carry a product so that you potentially aren't inconvenienced by having to travel 22 miles to get "emergency medication" , which by the way you have 3 days to take.


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## CurveLight (Jul 19, 2010)

manifold said:


> JBeukema said:
> 
> 
> > You don't think any business owner will sell Plan B if it's not mandated at the point of a federal rifle and punishable by imprisonment to refuse to sell it?
> ...



Every pharmacy should have a visible sign whether they carry it or not.  The last thing a rape victim needs to go through is some self-righteous bible thumper peering down at her.  If they don't stock it they should state the nearest pharmacy that does.


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## JBeukema (Jul 19, 2010)

If she's a rape victim, why didn't she go to a crisis center, the hospital, PP... and ask for it?


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## ConHog (Jul 19, 2010)

CurveLight said:


> manifold said:
> 
> 
> > JBeukema said:
> ...



Hey stupid, no fucking rape victim is going to be down at the pharmacy looking for this pill, or well she shouldn't be, you call the police if you're raped, they send you to the hospital, where a rape kit is taken, and oh yeah the woman is given preventive care for both STDs and pregnancy. DUH


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## ConHog (Jul 19, 2010)

JBeukema said:


> If she's a rape victim, why didn't she go to a crisis center, the hospital, PP... and ask for it?



They don't even have to ask for it, if you call 911 when raped, its standard procedure for the hospital to take care of it, just assuming that no one wants to be impregnated by a rapist.


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## CurveLight (Jul 19, 2010)

ConHog said:


> manifold said:
> 
> 
> > Licensed electricians are by law required to use materials that meet minimum safety/quality standards.
> ...



You are a stoopid ****.  Electricians are forced to carry many products as well as licenses and insurance.  They cannot use any line they want to wire a room so they are forced to carry the products necessary to legally hook up live lines.  Keep embarrassing yourself.....


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## JBeukema (Jul 19, 2010)

Feelings of guilt and shame, as well as fear, oft prevent reporting.

Hence I avoided assuming they went to the police.


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## JBeukema (Jul 19, 2010)

CurveLight said:


> ConHog said:
> 
> 
> > manifold said:
> ...




Fail. 

'I'm sorry, we don't offer that service or sell those materials here.'


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## CurveLight (Jul 19, 2010)

ConHog said:


> CurveLight said:
> 
> 
> > manifold said:
> ...



Proving once again you are fucking clueless on every thread you post in.


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## ConHog (Jul 19, 2010)

JBeukema said:


> Feelings of guilt and shame, as well as fear, oft prevent reporting.
> 
> Hence I avoided assuming they went to the police.



Then frankly, that is their problem and not the guy who owns the pharmacies. PERIOD.


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## CurveLight (Jul 19, 2010)

JBeukema said:


> CurveLight said:
> 
> 
> > ConHog said:
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Of course a dumbfuck like you can't see the diff between wiring a room and emergency medication.  I notice you start off with "Fail" a lot and while it is appreciated, you don't need to keep reminding everyone how to spell your real name.


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## ConHog (Jul 19, 2010)

CurveLight said:


> ConHog said:
> 
> 
> > manifold said:
> ...




CircleJerk, do you REALLY think calling people ***** make you any more credible than you already are, which is to say not at all?

Electricians are NOT forced to carry anything. In point of fact, most electricians do not carry products, in stead they go to Home Depot etc etc and buy things as they need them. Those stores aren't required to carry anything, and in fact if you've ever did any improvements on your trailer house I'm sure you've realized that they often do not have what you need.


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## ConHog (Jul 19, 2010)

CurveLight said:


> JBeukema said:
> 
> 
> > CurveLight said:
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Stop calling it emergency medication CircleJerk, you have 3-5 days to take it after conception. That's time sensitive , yes. But emergency? No. Of course being honest is well beyond your abilities, so no surprise.


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## topspin (Jul 19, 2010)

CurveLight said:


> Another PSA:
> 
> Plan B is not an abortion pill. It is emergency contraception. If a pregnancy has already occurred then Plan B is as useful as a Bush supporter in a Library.



 dude bodacious Republican  Burn Kudo's


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## CurveLight (Jul 19, 2010)

ConHog said:


> JBeukema said:
> 
> 
> > Feelings of guilt and shame, as well as fear, oft prevent reporting.
> ...




What's sad is people as selfish and dumb as you are also legislators.  Your best contribution to the US will be the day you take your last natural breath.


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## ConHog (Jul 19, 2010)

CurveLight said:


> ConHog said:
> 
> 
> > JBeukema said:
> ...



Sad that you consider asking people to be responsible for themselves to be selfish and dumb.

Also sad that you can basically say you hope a fellow American dies. Doubly sad if you are not banned for such a stupid statement.


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## CurveLight (Jul 19, 2010)

ConHog said:


> CurveLight said:
> 
> 
> > JBeukema said:
> ...




Plan B® One-Step is the only emergency contraception...
Plan B&#174; One-Step Consumer: Frequently Asked Questions

Plan B is a new emergency contraceptive...
Plan B: The New Morning After Pill

Keep proving what a dumbfuck you are.....


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## ConHog (Jul 19, 2010)

CurveLight said:


> ConHog said:
> 
> 
> > CurveLight said:
> ...




e·mer·gen·cy
&#8194; &#8194;/&#618;&#712;m&#604;rd&#658;&#601;nsi/ Show Spelled [ih-mur-juhn-see] Show IPA noun, plural -cies, adjective
noun
1.
a sudden, urgent, usually unexpected occurrence or occasion requiring* immediate *action.


im·me·di·ate
&#8194; &#8194;/&#618;&#712;midi&#618;t/ Show Spelled[ih-mee-dee-it] Show IPA
adjective
1.
occurring or accomplished without delay; instant: an immediate reply.
2.
*following or preceding without a lapse of time: the immediate future.*
3.
having no object or space intervening; nearest or next: in the immediate vicinity.
4.
of or pertaining to the present time or moment: our immediate plans.
5.
without intervening medium or agent; direct: an immediate cause.
6.
having a direct bearing: immediate consideration.
7.
very close in relationship: my immediate family.
8.
Philosophy . directly intuite


Does that read as something that you have 3-5 days to take care of? Nope.

CircleJerk fails again


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## CurveLight (Jul 19, 2010)

ConHog said:


> CurveLight said:
> 
> 
> > JBeukema said:
> ...





ConHog said:


> CurveLight said:
> 
> 
> > ConHog said:
> ...




It was pointed out many rape victims are too traumatized to report the rape and you responded by basically saying "So what?"

Not all rape victims can act in the way your tiny selfish mind dictates they should and I didn't say I hope you die.  I said your best contribution to the US will be when you take your last natural breath.  You are a parasite.


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## ConHog (Jul 19, 2010)

CurveLight said:


> ConHog said:
> 
> 
> > CurveLight said:
> ...



You need to invest in a dictionary



par·a·site
&#8194; &#8194;/&#712;pær&#601;&#716;sa&#618;t/ Show Spelled[par-uh-sahyt] Show IPA
noun
1.
an organism that lives on or in an organism of another species, known as the host, from the body of which it obtains nutriment.
2.
a person who receives support, advantage, or the like, from another or others without giving any useful or proper return, as one who lives on the hospitality of others.
3.
(in ancient Greece) a person who received free meals in return for amusing or impudent conversation, flattering remarks, etc.


Let's see, I've never received any form of welfare, so I guess unless you think I am an ancient Greek who makes people laugh for food, I see no way in which I could be a parasite.

I assure you , I am not a Greek.


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## CurveLight (Jul 19, 2010)

topspin said:


> CurveLight said:
> 
> 
> > Another PSA:
> ...



I am a Republican.  That was a Bush supporter burn.


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## CurveLight (Jul 19, 2010)

ConHog said:


> CurveLight said:
> 
> 
> > ConHog said:
> ...




You keep proving what a dumbfuck you are and you don't even realize how.


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## ConHog (Jul 19, 2010)

CurveLight said:


> ConHog said:
> 
> 
> > CurveLight said:
> ...



Explain it CircleJerk, explain to me how a pill which you have 3-5 days to take is an emergency medication despite the fact that the accepted definition of emergency is something that requires IMMEDIATE attention.

Or, alternatively just continue calling names until I get bored of this thread and then in two days time in another thread in which you're posting your idiotic drivel and I slam you down you can post about how you "pwned me" in this thread because I left. That's your typical MO.


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## JBeukema (Jul 19, 2010)

CurveLight said:


> JBeukema said:
> 
> 
> > CurveLight said:
> ...




1)We're not talking about 'emergency medication'. We're talking about birth control.

2)If there's a market for the product, someone will sell it. That you're too lazy to go to a different pharmacy or a hospital or Planned Parenthood does not justify forcing a business owner to carry the flagship product of the next pharmaceutical to start lobbying.


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## JBeukema (Jul 19, 2010)

ConHog said:


> CurveLight said:
> 
> 
> > JBeukema said:
> ...




Worst case scenario: Oh no, now I need to go ask the nearest feminist hippie chick whether she has any herbal abortifacients. Or go to Planned Parenthood and ask about an abortifacient within the next three months. Or something.


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## ConHog (Jul 19, 2010)

JBeukema said:


> CurveLight said:
> 
> 
> > JBeukema said:
> ...



You ****, you stoopid and dont even realize it. I win



How wast that for a CircleJerk imitation?


Seriously , CircleJerk is one of the worst people to debate with on this board, he never has facts on his side, he never listens to reason, and he's a liar.


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## ConHog (Jul 19, 2010)

JBeukema said:


> ConHog said:
> 
> 
> > CurveLight said:
> ...




Or, OMG I have to drive 22 miles to get to the wal mart pharmacy which carries this pill within the next 72 hours.


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## JBeukema (Jul 19, 2010)

ConHog said:


> JBeukema said:
> 
> 
> > ConHog said:
> ...



Maybe they don't have a car. 

They might need to find a library or use someone's computer to order it online from FA's link. Or they might need to pull a Numbers 5 and drink some bitter waters.


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## ConHog (Jul 19, 2010)

JBeukema said:


> ConHog said:
> 
> 
> > JBeukema said:
> ...



Then call a friend, hey friend I was raped, I need the pill, can you help? If not rape then call the guy and say "hey dude unless you wanna be a daddy, I need a ride to the pharmacy"


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## Care4all (Jul 19, 2010)

This is NOT about being raped BOYS.  This is not about abortion.  This is not about sluts.
==================================
This is information for the Public domain and not restricted to 3 paragraphs Plan B&#174; One-Step Consumer: Frequently Asked Questions


Frequently Asked QuestionsFrequently Asked Questions
What is Plan B® One-Step?

Plan B® One-Step is the only emergency contraception that is just one pill. Other emergency contraception requires two pills, twelve hours apart. It is a backup method of preventing pregnancyand is not for routine use. It can reduce the chance of pregnancy when taken as directed up to 72 hours (3 days) after unprotected sex (if your regular birth control method fails, or if you've had sex without birth control).
How does Plan B® One-Step work?

Plan B® One-Step is one pill which has a higher dose of levonorgestrel, a hormone found in many birth control pills that healthcare professionals have been prescribing for more than 35 years. Plan B® One-Step works in a similar way to prevent pregnancy. Plan B® One-Step will not affect an existing pregnancy.
When is it appropriate to use Plan B® One-Step?

You can use Plan B® One-Step after you've had unprotected sex or contraceptive failure one or more times in the last 72 hours (3 days), and you don't want to become pregnant. Plan B® One-Step can be used as a backup method for birth control if, for example:

    * Your regular birth control failed (your partner's condom broke or slipped)
    * You made a mistake with your regular method (you forgot to take your birth control pills)
    * You didn't use any birth control method

When is it not appropriate to use Plan B® One-Step?

Plan B® One-Step should not be used:

    * If you're already pregnant, because it won't work
    * If you're allergic to levonorgestrel or any of the ingredients in Plan B® One-Step
    * In place of regular birth control. Plan B® One-Step should not be used as routine birth control, as it's not as effective. Plan B® One-Step won't protect you from HIV infection (the virus that causes AIDS) or any other sexually transmitted diseases (STDs)

 How effective is Plan B® One-Step?

Plan B® One-Step works better the sooner you use it. If it is taken as directed within 72 hours (3 days) after unprotected sex or contraceptive failure, it can significantly decrease the chance that you will become pregnant. About 7 out of every 8 women who would have gotten pregnant will not become pregnant. Plan B® One-Step works even better if taken within the first 24 hours after unprotected sex or contraceptive failure.

 Can I use Plan B® One-Step for regular birth control?

Plan B® One-Step should not be used as regular birth control. Plan B® One-Step is not as effective as using a regular birth control method correctly and consistently. It is a backup method to be used if your regular birth control fails, or if you have sex without birth control. If you have unprotected sex after taking Plan B® One-Step, it cannot protect you from getting pregnant.

Plan B&#174; One-Step Consumer: Frequently Asked Questions


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## JBeukema (Jul 19, 2010)

Care4all said:


> This is NOT about being raped BOYS.  This is not about abortion.  This is not about sluts.




It's about freedom versus the government telling you what products you must sell if you dare to engage in private enterprise.


It's about totalitarian socialist central planners versus liberty.


It's about the market and a free society versus totalitarian socialists forcing every business to sell every product made by any company with a lobbyist because someone might be too lazy to go elsewhere for it.


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## Quantum Windbag (Jul 19, 2010)

CurveLight said:


> Cecilie1200 said:
> 
> 
> > CurveLight said:
> ...



They obviously have boyfriends, why don't they ask them to drive them to the pharmacy?


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## Care4all (Jul 19, 2010)

JBeukema said:


> Care4all said:
> 
> 
> > This is NOT about being raped BOYS.  This is not about abortion.  This is not about sluts.
> ...



ahhhhh, then how come the pharmacy sued for their religious objection and there hasn't been a suit by anyone for all those claims YOU make above?  You would think ALL pharmacies should object and file a class action suit for all those reasons above....?  Why doesn't it bother ALL pharmacy owners that are being told to carry it JB?


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## ConHog (Jul 19, 2010)

Quantum Windbag said:


> CurveLight said:
> 
> 
> > Cecilie1200 said:
> ...



That's what I'm saying, if homeboy can drive over for a slice of ass, he can probably drive to the pharmacy to get a pill.


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## Care4all (Jul 19, 2010)

why aren't ALL the Pharmacies complaining about government over reach on this?

maybe, THEY don't see it as such, no?


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## ConHog (Jul 19, 2010)

Care4all said:


> why aren't ALL the Pharmacies complaining about government over reach on this?
> 
> maybe, THEY don't see it as such, no?



Probably b/c most pharmacies intended to carry this product long before any government mandate if there was a customer need, and so they don't give a shit what the government is doing about it.

That is the sad truth, most people don't care about government over reach unless it directly affects them.

I promise that you personally would feel differently if it was your industry the government was infringing upon.


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## JBeukema (Jul 19, 2010)

Care4all said:


> JBeukema said:
> 
> 
> > Care4all said:
> ...



Their reasons for not wishing to sell a given product are irrelevant. Since when are their rights determined by their race, religion, sex, creed, or national origin?


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## JBeukema (Jul 19, 2010)

Care4all said:


> why aren't ALL the Pharmacies complaining about government over reach on this?
> 
> maybe, THEY don't see it as such, no?


Because they're selling it anyway; it doesn't effect them yet. American history has seen this pattern before.


After all, did the hairdressers complain when prohibition was instituted, or only the barkeepers and the man who owned the liquor shoppe?


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## saveliberty (Jul 19, 2010)

Care4all said:


> why aren't ALL the Pharmacies complaining about government over reach on this?
> 
> maybe, THEY don't see it as such, no?



Big corporate chain stores don't have morals.  Individuals do.  Family run pharmacys have them too.  Question is...do you want an amoral company selling you medicine for profit or to help you regain your health?


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## ConHog (Jul 19, 2010)

saveliberty said:


> Care4all said:
> 
> 
> > why aren't ALL the Pharmacies complaining about government over reach on this?
> ...



Do you really think this about anything more to Care, and others, than dictating their beliefs to others?

What's hilarious is they explode about Christians supposedly doing this exact same thing, but have no problem doing it to Christians.


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## JBeukema (Jul 19, 2010)

saveliberty said:


> Question is...do you want an amoral company selling you medicine for profit or to help you regain your health?


Before we respond to that, exactly what alternative are you proposing?


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## FA_Q2 (Jul 19, 2010)

Care4all said:


> JBeukema said:
> 
> 
> > Care4all said:
> ...


First, a store is not going to invest the requires resources and time if they were carrying the product in the first place.  It is unlikely those stores even notices.  You do not know every law that passes that affects you.  Once this store was cited it was likely that was when they brought the suit up.  

Also, please read the article again.  The suit for the religious objection is just ONE of the suits that the business is bringing.  There are other constitutional avenues they are exploring as well.


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## JBeukema (Jul 19, 2010)

Figures some shit like this comes form the Ninth Circus


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## ConHog (Jul 19, 2010)

JBeukema said:


> Figures some shit like this comes form the Ninth Circus



Yeah, Ravi would be right at home on the 9th, and that's saying something


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## CurveLight (Jul 20, 2010)

ConHog said:


> saveliberty said:
> 
> 
> > Care4all said:
> ...



Nobody is forcing Christians to take the pill.  Why don't you scream this is proof of an "all out War on Christianity?"  You've got nothing to lose.


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## CurveLight (Jul 20, 2010)

JBeukema said:


> CurveLight said:
> 
> 
> > JBeukema said:
> ...




It's called "emergency contraception" for a reason you dishonest fuck.  Throughout this whole thread you keep trying to make it personal because you have no legit argument so you accuse people of being lazy, etc, etc, when really you are just completely tanked.


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## JBeukema (Jul 20, 2010)

CurveLight said:


> JBeukema said:
> 
> 
> > CurveLight said:
> ...



Not using a condom or planning ahead is not an emergency. Especially when you have 72 hours to go to another pharmacy or a hospital or the Health Department or Planned Parenthood- or ask a friend for a half dozen of her bc pills (many bc and ebc pills are different doses of the same hormones). 

An emergency medication is one you die if you miss. Worst case scenario here is that you have to ask for RU-486 instead or visit the nearest hippie feminist for some of her 'female empowerment tea' or ask a Tabbi to prepare some of those 'bitter waters which bringeth the curse'


> Throughout this whole thread you keep trying to make it personal because you have no legit argument



Freedom and a market that's not run by totalitarian socialists aren't legit arguments? Only a totalitarian socialist could make such a moronic assertion.


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## Quantum Windbag (Jul 20, 2010)

CurveLight said:


> JBeukema said:
> 
> 
> > CurveLight said:
> ...



It is called emergency contraception to confuse people who think you have to take it right away. There is a 5 day window in which it is effective, which means it is not an emergency.

I guess that means you are the one without an effective argument because, no matter how you look at it, this is not going to save anyone's life. If the people who "need" it would take personal responsibility in the first place they would not need it because they would be using something else. Even if what they prefer to use fails they always have the option of an abortion, so there is absolutely no need for Plan B to be required to be sold anywhere. Unless, that is, abortions are inherently unsafe, which no one who advocates for abortions will admit.

That is a catch-22, the only way you could convince me that this is necessary is admit something you refuse to admit.


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## Care4all (Jul 20, 2010)

Quantum Windbag said:


> CurveLight said:
> 
> 
> > JBeukema said:
> ...



I think you are incorrect on there being 5 days to take it.  I just read the literature on it yesterday and it specifically said it must be taken within the first 72 hours and closer to the first few hours after the incident, within 24 hours is the most effective....there is only a 7 out of 8 chance if following these instructions that it will be effective....after 72 hours it is useless?  where did you read it was 5 days?



> You only have a few days to prevent pregnancy after unprotected sex or contraceptive failure. Plan B® One-Step works better the sooner you take it. And unlike other emergency contraception, it's only one pill, so you can get what you need right away&#8212;within 72 hours (3 days) after unprotected sex or contraceptive failure.
> How effective is Plan B® One-Step?
> 
> Plan B® One-Step works better the sooner you use it. If it is taken as directed within 72 hours (3 days) after unprotected sex or contraceptive failure, it can significantly decrease the chance that you will become pregnant. About 7 out of every 8 women who would have gotten pregnant will not become pregnant. *Plan B® One-Step works even better if taken within the first 24 hours after unprotected sex or contraceptive failure.*


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## Quantum Windbag (Jul 20, 2010)

Care4all said:


> Quantum Windbag said:
> 
> 
> > CurveLight said:
> ...



I can't explain the discrepancy between the medical sites and the pharmaceutical sites, other than to guess that they are worried about litigation.

Emergency contraception: Timeframe for using emergency contraceptives (the morning after pill)


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## Care4all (Jul 21, 2010)

Quantum Windbag said:


> Care4all said:
> 
> 
> > Quantum Windbag said:
> ...



yours is about an older version, a 2 pill situation, the plan b emergency one that i posted is the newest version, where only 1 pill is required but it MUST BE taken immediately or up to 72 hours, from what i gather....?


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## JBeukema (Jul 21, 2010)

Care4all said:


> Quantum Windbag said:
> 
> 
> > Care4all said:
> ...







From the link:



> In the United States, you can buy a one-step emergency contraceptive pill (called Plan B One-Step) or a 2-step pill (Plan B or Next Choice); both of these products contain the same total amount of progestin. Plan B One-Step is just one pill that you take as soon as possible after sex. The instructions              for Plan B and Next Choice (which each contain 2 pills) say to take the first dose              within 72 hours after sex and a second dose 12 hours later (however, studies show that you can take both pills at the same time). The same              is true for most other pills sold specifically for use as emergency              contraceptives around the world, and your health care provider will              likely suggest this if you plan to use any of the brands of regular              birth control pills that can also be used              as emergency contraception. But studies show that all of these              pills can be taken for up to 5 days after sex. (Click              here for more detailed instructions for using daily birth control pills as emergency contraception.)


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## CurveLight (Jul 21, 2010)

Quantum Windbag said:


> CurveLight said:
> 
> 
> > JBeukema said:
> ...



There isn't a 5 day window you dumbfuck.  This is exactly what I mean about ignorant fucking dumbasses trying to debate when they don't even have basic fucking facts.  The facts get posted and whiny ***** like you ignore it.


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## CurveLight (Jul 21, 2010)

JBeukema said:


> Care4all said:
> 
> 
> > Quantum Windbag said:
> ...




Only dumbasses like you can quote the fact it states:

"Plan B One-Step is just one pill that you take as soon as possible after sex."

Then squiggle and squirm it into "five days."

Fucking dishonest jackasses.


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## JBeukema (Jul 21, 2010)

CurveLight said:


> JBeukema said:
> 
> 
> > Care4all said:
> ...



Quoting the source it 'squiggling and squirming'?

Let me get this straight: You take one sentence that says sooner is better and contort it into some sort of 'I'm-gonna-die-if-I-don't-take-this-pill-in-the-next-hour' 'emergency'. Then you declare that quoting the same source verbatim is 'squirming'. Then you declare someone else to be dishonest?


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## ConHog (Jul 21, 2010)

JBeukema said:


> CurveLight said:
> 
> 
> > JBeukema said:
> ...




JB, in case you haven't figured it out my brother CircleJerk is one of the posters on this board, one of many actually, who you simply can NOT have a rationale debate with. He is incapable of thought beyond name calling and lying. I've seen him lie in threads when the truth would better serve his argument.

Seriously, I'd jump out and let him have the "win" if I were you, for your own sanity.


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## CurveLight (Jul 21, 2010)

JBeukema said:


> CurveLight said:
> 
> 
> > JBeukema said:
> ...



You dishonest ****.  I never said nor implied anything about dying and your source for the 5 day window is from fucking Princeton and it's not talking about the plan B One step that must be taken as soon as possible.

That "one sentence" I took is from the fucking manufacturer's instructions you ignorant **** so yes that makes more sense than your unsupported Princeton bullshit.  What else ya got you lying fuck?


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## JBeukema (Jul 21, 2010)

CurveLight said:


> ****.





Why do people use female genitalia as a pejorative?

I don't know about you, but as a heterosexual male, I happen to rather like the female anatomy. (Well, depending on the female in question). Although I suppose such signs of misogyny fit with your view that women are either too lazy or too stupid to go to a second pharmacy or to Planned Parenthood, a hospital, or the Health Department.



> your unsupported Princeton bullshit





from the link



> A thorough and up-to-date academic review of the medical and social              science literature on emergency contraception, including research              showing that emergency contraceptive pills can be used up to 120 hours              after sex, is available; click                here
> 
> 
> 
> ...



.  What else ya got you lying fuck?[/quote]


You really expected to be taken seriously by any honest person with two brain cells?


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## CurveLight (Jul 21, 2010)

Holy fuck you are pathetic.  Plan B one step is an emergency contraception.  The instructions are to take it as soon as fucking possible after sex.  That might be why.....ya know....they call it EMERGENCY contraception.  Your five day red herring is a painfully transparent attempt to ignore the facts as we know them then you have the audacity to accuse others of being dishonest.  Shove another cock down your throat because you sure as hell don't use your head in any other way.


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## Gunny (Jul 21, 2010)

FA_Q2 said:


> A new law here in Washington forces pharmacies to carry and sell the Plan B pill.  Owners of several pharmacies have filed lawsuit based on the freedom of religion claiming that Plan B is against their beliefs and they refuse to sell the contraceptive.  Lawmakers are contemplating changing the law to read that they do not have to carry Plan B if they refer customers to a nearby store that does sell the pill.
> 
> I wonder what the take on this concept is here.  I am somewhat taken aback by this as I would have thought that it would naturally be the right of the business owner to decide what he or she sells.  What right does the state have to mandate that a particular business sells anything.  I understand regulation and placing limitations on items that a business is allowed to sell but forcing one to sell something seems over the top.  What are your thoughts?
> 
> ...



Over the counter murder.  We should be proud.


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## Gunny (Jul 21, 2010)

xotoxi said:


> I wonder if those pharmacists that are so pissed carry regular birth control pills.



Preempting conception of life and murdering a life are two different things.  Got a better red herring than that, or what?


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## Care4all (Jul 21, 2010)

Gunny said:


> xotoxi said:
> 
> 
> > I wonder if those pharmacists that are so pissed carry regular birth control pills.
> ...



the birth control pill does the same thing....if it does not prevent an egg from being fertilized, it prevents the fertilized egg from attaching to the uterus....it does both....thus the 99.8% effectiveness.....from what i have read on it....


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## Cecilie1200 (Jul 21, 2010)

CurveLight said:


> FA_Q2 said:
> 
> 
> > CurveLight said:
> ...



"Other people" being defined as "anyone who's living according to my beliefs" and not "those fucking pharmacists who dare to disagree with my worldview and who will be made to kowtow", one assumes.

How terribly unselfish of you to legislate yourself control of other people's businesses for the greater good.  Ghandi's got nothing on you.


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## CurveLight (Jul 21, 2010)

Cecilie1200 said:


> CurveLight said:
> 
> 
> > FA_Q2 said:
> ...



That bombed.  Really really bad.  Look on ebay or craigslist for soap boxes.  Don't worry if it's free or where it comes from.......it cannot be any worse than yours.


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## CurveLight (Jul 21, 2010)

Gunny said:


> xotoxi said:
> 
> 
> > I wonder if those pharmacists that are so pissed carry regular birth control pills.
> ...




Where is that PSA of mine spelling out this pill does terminate a pregnancy?

You suck even more at debating than running a board.


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## JBeukema (Jul 21, 2010)

CurveLight said:


> Holy fuck you are pathetic.  Plan B one step is an emergency contraception.  The instructions are to take it as soon as fucking possible after sex.  That might be why.....ya know....they call it EMERGENCY contraception.  Your five day red herring is a painfully transparent attempt to ignore the facts as we know them then you have the audacity to accuse others of being dishonest.  Shove another cock down your throat because you sure as hell don't use your head in any other way.




1) It was your side that first link to the 5-day information

2) Since when is linking to medical studies a redherring?

3) How is presenting facts ignoring them?

4) Why are you thinking about getting throatfucked and why can't you have the decency to keep your homosexual fantasies to yourself?


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## CurveLight (Jul 22, 2010)

JBeukema said:


> CurveLight said:
> 
> 
> > Holy fuck you are pathetic.  Plan B one step is an emergency contraception.  The instructions are to take it as soon as fucking possible after sex.  That might be why.....ya know....they call it EMERGENCY contraception.  Your five day red herring is a painfully transparent attempt to ignore the facts as we know them then you have the audacity to accuse others of being dishonest.  Shove another cock down your throat because you sure as hell don't use your head in any other way.
> ...




Lol!  "My side" referenced the 5 day bullshit?  Pay attention you simple pimple:  I've never referenced that 5 day crap but only a dishonest shitbag like you would try to imply that somehow.  You didn't link an actual study dumbfuck.  You linked a site that talked about a study.  You ignored the fact the instructions are to take it as soon as fucking possible after sex.  You tried to use the 5 day bullshit to trump that fact and even changed the font color in your desperate attempt. 

Go ahead and deny it again that plan b one step is an emergency medication you lying fuck.  Then embarrass yourself some more by using the rep button to accuse me of lying.


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## JBeukema (Jul 22, 2010)

http://ec.princeton.edu/questions/ec-review.pdf

Clearly, your faith and your desire for totalitarian socialism as a pathway to a new Utopia, combined with your hatred of liberty and the free market as capitalist evils that are inherently designed as machinations top facilitate the oppression of the proletariat, prevents you from discussing the matter honesty or truly examining any information or evidence that contradicts your delusional worldview. 

Is it useless to discuss any particular aspect of the matter with you. Any genuine intellectual contact in which we'd have you engage involves a challenge to your fundamental faith, a struggle for your soul. You have laid your reason and intellect upon the alter of the 'progressive' authoritarian dogma of the strict fatherly State and the war against those who would dare exercise their liberty and personal believes rather than falling ion line with your personal dicta and surrender their will and morality in the name of your convenience- and now you lack the strength of mind and will to take them up again, turning your back on the promise of your faith and deal with the world as it truly is.


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## Luissa (Jul 22, 2010)

Gunny said:


> FA_Q2 said:
> 
> 
> > A new law here in Washington forces pharmacies to carry and sell the Plan B pill.  Owners of several pharmacies have filed lawsuit based on the freedom of religion claiming that Plan B is against their beliefs and they refuse to sell the contraceptive.  Lawmakers are contemplating changing the law to read that they do not have to carry Plan B if they refer customers to a nearby store that does sell the pill.
> ...



someone doesn't how the pill works.


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## JBeukema (Jul 22, 2010)

Luissa said:


> Gunny said:
> 
> 
> > FA_Q2 said:
> ...




It prevents implantation, thereby ensuring the death of the zygote, is present.


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## Luissa (Jul 22, 2010)

Gunny said:


> xotoxi said:
> 
> 
> > I wonder if those pharmacists that are so pissed carry regular birth control pills.
> ...



Dude, you really need to learn how Plan B works. It prevents the egg from attaching to the uterin wall, just like some birth controls. It DOES NOT kill the fetus. Which is why you have to take within 72 hrs of having unprotected sex, otherwise it is ineffective.


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## Luissa (Jul 22, 2010)

JBeukema said:


> Luissa said:
> 
> 
> > Gunny said:
> ...



So do IUD's.. I guess I was murdering babies every month when I had one.


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## JBeukema (Jul 22, 2010)

Luissa said:


> Gunny said:
> 
> 
> > xotoxi said:
> ...




It does ensure the death of the zygote. The only reason is doesn't kill a foetus is because it ensures death of the child, if present, before it reaches the state of development where it is labeled a foetus. You're playing silly semantic games and failing to point out where Gunny's really incorrect- which is that regular BC does the same thing. Should it fail to prevent fertilization (by thickening the mucous around the cervix), it prevents implantation of the zygote (impregnation) (sometimes) by also effecting the lining of the uterus and making implantation more difficult.


Then, of course, sometimes it fails altogether.


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## JBeukema (Jul 22, 2010)

Luissa said:


> JBeukema said:
> 
> 
> > Luissa said:
> ...


I wouldn't sweat it. Nature prevents many zygotes from successfully implanting and many blastocysts from surviving. Surprisingly few fertilizations lead to live birth or even to the owman becoming aware of a pregnancy.

Ever had an unusually heavy period that was a few days late? You very well might have had a spontaneous abortion at the earliest stages of pregnancy for any of a myriad of reasons.


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## Luissa (Jul 22, 2010)

JBeukema said:


> Luissa said:
> 
> 
> > Gunny said:
> ...



I edited my reply because I used the wrong word.


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## Luissa (Jul 22, 2010)

JBeukema said:


> Luissa said:
> 
> 
> > JBeukema said:
> ...


I am a women who has had a child, I know all this.


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## Luissa (Jul 22, 2010)

JBeukema said:


> Luissa said:
> 
> 
> > Gunny said:
> ...


And to be correct, it can prevent ovulation, in the same way birth control does. It contains progestin, which is the same thing they put in birth control. If you have sex on a certain day, and are not due to ovulate for two days, Plan B will also prevent fertilization.


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## Quantum Windbag (Jul 22, 2010)

Care4all said:


> Quantum Windbag said:
> 
> 
> > Care4all said:
> ...



My site actually mentions both types, and states that one form of Plan B is actually 2 pills taken 12 hours apart. I am not familiar enough with the actual meds to do anything more than point out what the site says.


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## Quantum Windbag (Jul 22, 2010)

CurveLight said:


> Quantum Windbag said:
> 
> 
> > CurveLight said:
> ...



According to the site I linked to you are wrong. Take it up with them if you have a problem.


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## Quantum Windbag (Jul 22, 2010)

CurveLight said:


> JBeukema said:
> 
> 
> > CurveLight said:
> ...



Actually, the Princeton site specifically counters your claim that Plan B has to be taken within 72 hours.


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## Quantum Windbag (Jul 22, 2010)

CurveLight said:


> Holy fuck you are pathetic.  Plan B one step is an emergency contraception.  The instructions are to take it as soon as fucking possible after sex.  That might be why.....ya know....they call it EMERGENCY contraception.  Your five day red herring is a painfully transparent attempt to ignore the facts as we know them then you have the audacity to accuse others of being dishonest.  Shove another cock down your throat because you sure as hell don't use your head in any other way.



Yet you are insisting that women have time to have sex, make an appointment, go to the doctor and get a prescription, go to the pharmacy, and then take the pill, and pharmacies have to carry it because, you know, it is like, an emergency. Why don't they use other contraceptives, and keep a supply of Plan B on hand, in case they need it, instead of waiting until it is too late to try and get it ASAP?


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## CurveLight (Jul 22, 2010)

JBeukema said:


> CurveLight said:
> 
> 
> > Holy fuck you are pathetic.  Plan B one step is an emergency contraception.  The instructions are to take it as soon as fucking possible after sex.  That might be why.....ya know....they call it EMERGENCY contraception.  Your five day red herring is a painfully transparent attempt to ignore the facts as we know them then you have the audacity to accuse others of being dishonest.  Shove another cock down your throat because you sure as hell don't use your head in any other way.
> ...





JBeukema said:


> http://ec.princeton.edu/questions/ec-review.pdf
> 
> Clearly, your faith and your desire for totalitarian socialism as a pathway to a new Utopia, combined with your hatred of liberty and the free market as capitalist evils that are inherently designed as machinations top facilitate the oppression of the proletariat, prevents you from discussing the matter honesty or truly examining any information or evidence that contradicts your delusional worldview.
> 
> Is it useless to discuss any particular aspect of the matter with you. Any genuine intellectual contact in which we'd have you engage involves a challenge to your fundamental faith, a struggle for your soul. You have laid your reason and intellect upon the alter of the 'progressive' authoritarian dogma of the strict fatherly State and the war against those who would dare exercise their liberty and personal believes rather than falling ion line with your personal dicta and surrender their will and morality in the name of your convenience- and now you lack the strength of mind and will to take them up again, turning your back on the promise of your faith and deal with the world as it truly is.




Lol!  A goofy socialism rant?  Dumbass.


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## CurveLight (Jul 22, 2010)

Quantum Windbag said:


> CurveLight said:
> 
> 
> > Holy fuck you are pathetic.  Plan B one step is an emergency contraception.  The instructions are to take it as soon as fucking possible after sex.  That might be why.....ya know....they call it EMERGENCY contraception.  Your five day red herring is a painfully transparent attempt to ignore the facts as we know them then you have the audacity to accuse others of being dishonest.  Shove another cock down your throat because you sure as hell don't use your head in any other way.
> ...



You don't need a prescription for PB One Step you stoopid fucking asswipe.


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## Quantum Windbag (Jul 22, 2010)

CurveLight said:


> Quantum Windbag said:
> 
> 
> > CurveLight said:
> ...



Funny, the people who make it disagree with you.

Plan B&#174; One-Step Prescribers: Prescriber Information


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## CurveLight (Jul 22, 2010)

Quantum Windbag said:


> CurveLight said:
> 
> 
> > Holy fuck you are pathetic.  Plan B one step is an emergency contraception.  The instructions are to take it as soon as fucking possible after sex.  That might be why.....ya know....they call it EMERGENCY contraception.  Your five day red herring is a painfully transparent attempt to ignore the facts as we know them then you have the audacity to accuse others of being dishonest.  Shove another cock down your throat because you sure as hell don't use your head in any other way.
> ...





Quantum Windbag said:


> CurveLight said:
> 
> 
> > Quantum Windbag said:
> ...




Show us where it says you have to have a prescription you stoopid fuck.  Guess what?  You proved yourself to a fucking idiot. Again. 

"Since 2006, those 18 or older can buy Plan B over the counter at local pharmacies."
Plan B &#8211; Plan B One Step - Who Can Buy Plan B One Step (the new Plan B)?


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## Luissa (Jul 22, 2010)

All you have to do is go to your pharmacy and ask for it. You don't need to even talk to your doctor. Your insurance will either pay for it, or you usually have to pay around $50.


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## Luissa (Jul 22, 2010)

Quantum Windbag said:


> CurveLight said:
> 
> 
> > Quantum Windbag said:
> ...


Actually you have to take within 72 hrs. With some brands you take one, with other you take two. ONe the first day, and the next one the same time the following day.


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## CurveLight (Jul 22, 2010)

Luissa said:


> Quantum Windbag said:
> 
> 
> > CurveLight said:
> ...



There's Plan B (two pill) and Plan B one step which is one pill and to be taken asap.


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## elvis (Jul 22, 2010)

CurveLight said:


> Luissa said:
> 
> 
> > Quantum Windbag said:
> ...



Too bad your mother didn't take one of them.


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## CurveLight (Jul 22, 2010)

elvis said:


> CurveLight said:
> 
> 
> > Luissa said:
> ...



Thank you for another great eaxample of unabashed hypocrisy.   You fucking ***** whine about rules when they aren't broken then turn around and actually break those same rules.  What a fucking joke.


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## Quantum Windbag (Jul 22, 2010)

CurveLight said:


> Quantum Windbag said:
> 
> 
> > CurveLight said:
> ...



Read the fine print.



> *Important Safety Information:*
> PLAN B® ONE-STEP is intended to prevent pregnancy after known or suspected contraceptive failure or unprotected intercourse.
> 
> PLAN B® ONE-STEP isn't effective if you're already pregnant, and it won't terminate an existing pregnancy. PLAN B® ONE-STEP  does not protect against HIV and other sexually transmitted diseases  (STDs). Side effects may include changes in your period, nausea, lower  abdominal pain, fatigue, headache, and dizziness. If your period is more  than a week late, you may be pregnant. You should not take PLAN B® ONE-STEP if you are already pregnant. PLAN B® ONE-STEP  should not be used as a routine birth control, as it is not as  effective. If you have severe abdominal pain, you may have an ectopic  pregnancy, and should get immediate medical help. *You are encouraged to  report negative side effects of prescription drugs to the FDA* at fda.gov/medwatch or call 1-800-FDA-1088. Click here for full product information.


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## CurveLight (Jul 22, 2010)

Quantum Windbag said:


> CurveLight said:
> 
> 
> > Quantum Windbag said:
> ...




You are so fucking beyond ridiculously stoopid it's comical.  That disclaimer is a blanket posted by most pharm sources you dumbfuck.

I provided a link explicitly pointing out that for four years now you don't need a prescription if you are over 18 and you fucking completely ignore it.  Fucking ****.


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## elvis (Jul 22, 2010)

CurveLight said:


> elvis said:
> 
> 
> > CurveLight said:
> ...



no rules have been broken, but keep showing what a moron you are.


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## Quantum Windbag (Jul 22, 2010)

Luissa said:


> Quantum Windbag said:
> 
> 
> > CurveLight said:
> ...



According to Princeton, and a few medical studies, that is not true. Like I said, if you do not agree with it, take it up with them. Perhaps the generic Plan B that is available without a prescription is not as effective as the prescription strength version of the medication.


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## Quantum Windbag (Jul 22, 2010)

CurveLight said:


> Luissa said:
> 
> 
> > Quantum Windbag said:
> ...



Up to 120 hours after you have sex.


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## CurveLight (Jul 22, 2010)

elvis said:


> CurveLight said:
> 
> 
> > elvis said:
> ...




Keep lying you whiny ****.


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## Luissa (Jul 22, 2010)

CurveLight said:


> Luissa said:
> 
> 
> > Quantum Windbag said:
> ...



The two step has a different name on it, I can't remember right now what it is.


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## Quantum Windbag (Jul 22, 2010)

CurveLight said:


> Quantum Windbag said:
> 
> 
> > CurveLight said:
> ...



I read your link, and it is a blog. Which makes it only as reliable as the anonymous person who wrote it.

Please note that I can still point to the fact that the manufacturer's site and the link you posted say it is a prescription drug, which is available through a licensed pharmacy with ID to anyone who asks for it, because the court decided that politics outweighs science with this drug. Which is probably why you have no problem forcing pharmacies to carry it.


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## CurveLight (Jul 22, 2010)

Quantum Windbag said:


> Luissa said:
> 
> 
> > Quantum Windbag said:
> ...




You're a complete fucking dumbass.

"Plan B® One-Step is now available without a prescription in the U.S. for consumers age 17 or older, but a prescription is still required for women under 17."
Plan B&#174; One-Step Pharmacists: Frequent Asked Questions


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## Luissa (Jul 22, 2010)

Quantum Windbag said:


> CurveLight said:
> 
> 
> > Luissa said:
> ...



ON the box it says 72 hrs. Trust me!


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## CurveLight (Jul 22, 2010)

Quantum Windbag said:


> Luissa said:
> 
> 
> > Quantum Windbag said:
> ...





Quantum Windbag said:


> CurveLight said:
> 
> 
> > Quantum Windbag said:
> ...




I just linked the manufacturer's website you ignorant twat.


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## JBeukema (Jul 22, 2010)

Luissa said:


> Quantum Windbag said:
> 
> 
> > CurveLight said:
> ...




The linked article, which includes a review written by several M.D.'s shows they can be taken up to 5 days after intercourse. The manufacturer advises taking them within 3 days, probably for the same reason milk is marked with a 'sell by' date that's set some time before it's expected to expire.


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## JBeukema (Jul 22, 2010)

Quantum Windbag said:


> Luissa said:
> 
> 
> > Quantum Windbag said:
> ...


There is no 'prescription version'. A prescription used to be needed, but now it is not necessary for adults.


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## Quantum Windbag (Jul 22, 2010)

JBeukema said:


> Quantum Windbag said:
> 
> 
> > Luissa said:
> ...



I figured that out after I posted and read some more, but thanks for pointing it out anyway.


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## FA_Q2 (Jul 23, 2010)

Luissa said:


> Quantum Windbag said:
> 
> 
> > CurveLight said:
> ...



That does not really matter.  The point was that studies have shown that you have 5 days no matter what anyone, including the manufacturer states.  The squabbling over 3 or 5 days in a straw man anyway.  The heart was whether or not this is an emergency medication that needs to be available to you anywhere because of the dire consequences should you need to drive a whole extra hour to another pharmacy.  That argument is inane and stupid.  The fact remains that this is far from what would be considered an emergency situation at all if it was not for the political bullshit that comes with all subjects pertaining to abortion.  The fact that not one person has been able to answer the challenge I posted here earlier about a truly emergency medication that may cause the DEATH of a child is not available at virtually any pharmacy but this medication is required shows how foolish this argument truly is.  Another question would be should all pharmacies be required to stay open 7 days a week because someone might mess up friday and then might not be able to get any plan b until Tuesday on a long holiday weekend.  That would be a travesty after all.  A whole 3 days would pass before you could use that pharmacy of choice.


Here is the jist of it: those that are for this crap legislation are pushing their personal belifs on others because they feel attacked whenever someone disagrees with their position.  It is rather ironic that these individuals purport to be "pro choice" and are taking away a business's choice.  This medication is NOT emergency medication no matter what label people want to slap on it to make it so.  You will not die if it is not administered, it can be taken in a large window of time and if it is not effective there are many other menthods that can be utilized to correct your mistake.  Lastly, this medication can be purchased BEFORE you run into any problems and most likely should be kept on hand if you are that worried about pregnancy.  This is all an issue of personal responsibility and leaving people to make their own choices.  If you dislike pharmacies for not carrying this medication there is always the choice to support another with your dollars.  Legal action here is uncalled for and attacks the very foundation of what makes this country great: FREEDOM.  If all our freedoms are subject to removal for inconveniencing others because they failed to take the proper precautions or responsibility then we might as well serve up the rest of our freedoms on a silver platter.


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## CurveLight (Jul 23, 2010)

JBeukema said:


> Luissa said:
> 
> 
> > Quantum Windbag said:
> ...



You are one sad dishonest dickidiot.


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## CurveLight (Jul 23, 2010)

Quantum Windbag said:


> JBeukema said:
> 
> 
> > Quantum Windbag said:
> ...



ROTFL!!!!!!!  You "figured" that out?  What a useless lying fuck.


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## CurveLight (Jul 23, 2010)

FA_Q2 said:


> Luissa said:
> 
> 
> > Quantum Windbag said:
> ...



This is more evidence this board is full of ignorant dishonest *****.  You're choosing to cite one study over the medical facts then referring to "studies" and completely ignoring the fact PB One Step is to be taken immediately....which is why it's called EMERGENCY contraception you fucking stoopid shitstick.  You're a joke.


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## JBeukema (Jul 23, 2010)

CurveLight said:


> JBeukema said:
> 
> 
> > Luissa said:
> ...



So there's no link?

The manufacturer doesn't say 3 days?

Milk isn't marked with a 'sell by' date?


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## JBeukema (Jul 23, 2010)

The conclusions of medical studies *are* the facts.


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## Quantum Windbag (Jul 23, 2010)

CurveLight said:


> FA_Q2 said:
> 
> 
> > Luissa said:
> ...



It is called "emergency" contraception because it is meant to be taken in the event that your regular contraceptive failed, not because it is has to be taken in an emergency.


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## JBeukema (Jul 23, 2010)

Don't you get is, Q? What bigger emergency can there be than having to go to a different business or take a different pill or *gasp* show some responsibility?


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## Quantum Windbag (Jul 23, 2010)

JBeukema said:


> Don't you get is, Q? What bigger emergency can there be than having to go to a different business or take a different pill or *gasp* show some responsibility?



I get it, I just wonder why they don't admit it.


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## CurveLight (Jul 24, 2010)

Quantum Windbag said:


> CurveLight said:
> 
> 
> > FA_Q2 said:
> ...



You're the stoopid **** that claimed you needed a prescription for it so you look pretty fucking silly trying to explain an issue you clearly are uninformed about.

It's called "emergency" contraception because you have to take it as soon as possible.  The earlier you take it the more effective it will be and you sad fucking dumbasses know this but live in your world of dishonesty to try and justify your ignorance.


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## CurveLight (Jul 24, 2010)

JBeukema said:


> The conclusions of medical studies *are* the facts.



Lol!


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## CurveLight (Jul 24, 2010)

JBeukema said:


> CurveLight said:
> 
> 
> > JBeukema said:
> ...




The manufacturer says to take it as soon as possible which is why it's called emergency contraception.  This board has to have more dishonest pathetic ***** than freeper, hannity, and welovebush all put together.


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## JBeukema (Jul 24, 2010)

When you keep calling everyone ***** every other sentence, it's pretty hard to take anything you say seriously.


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## CurveLight (Jul 24, 2010)

JBeukema said:


> When you keep calling everyone ***** every other sentence, it's pretty hard to take anything you say seriously.



The easiest solution is for you to stop being such a whiny ****.


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## JBeukema (Jul 24, 2010)

So you use female genitalia as a term of derision and think women are incapable of finding a second pharmacy. 

Why so misogynistic?


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## CurveLight (Jul 24, 2010)

JBeukema said:


> When you keep calling everyone ***** every other sentence, it's pretty hard to take anything you say seriously.





JBeukema said:


> So you use female genitalia as a term of derision and think women are incapable of finding a second pharmacy.
> 
> Why so misogynistic?



If the word "apple" caused the same hilarious responses I'd use that word so it has nothing to do with anatomy.  I also never said women are incapable of finding more than one pharmacy.  You are one dishonest **** and have been consistently throughout this thread.


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## Luissa (Jul 26, 2010)

FA_Q2 said:


> Luissa said:
> 
> 
> > Quantum Windbag said:
> ...



The point I am making is, it does the exact same thing as birth control. If you have IUD that prevents eggs from implanting, it is the same thing as taking Plan B after conception. All birth controls have progestrin in them, Plan B just has a higher dose. If the pharmacy is willing to sell Birth Control, it is pretty stupid, and very much political if they refuse to sell Plan B. For one if you take Plan B right away, it can prevent ovulation and conception, just like regular birth control. So wouldn't a Pro Life person want them to get the Plan B as soon as possible, so they do not kill a fertilized egg? or are you against birth control also?


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## JBeukema (Jul 26, 2010)

So, they're stupid.

Since when is that grounds for infringing on their liberty to not sell a given product? After all, registered Republicans can refuse to sell gay porn in their book shoppes.


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## Quantum Windbag (Jul 26, 2010)

Luissa said:


> The point I am making is, it does the exact same thing as birth control. If you have IUD that prevents eggs from implanting, it is the same thing as taking Plan B after conception. All birth controls have progestrin in them, Plan B just has a higher dose. If the pharmacy is willing to sell Birth Control, it is pretty stupid, and very much political if they refuse to sell Plan B. For one if you take Plan B right away, it can prevent ovulation and conception, just like regular birth control. So wouldn't a Pro Life person want them to get the Plan B as soon as possible, so they do not kill a fertilized egg? or are you against birth control also?



The thing is, even if they do not sell birth control they are going to be forced to carry this.


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## FA_Q2 (Jul 26, 2010)

Luissa said:


> The point I am making is, it does the exact same thing as birth control. If you have IUD that prevents eggs from implanting, it is the same thing as taking Plan B after conception. All birth controls have progestrin in them, Plan B just has a higher dose. If the pharmacy is willing to sell Birth Control, it is pretty stupid, and very much political if they refuse to sell Plan B. For one if you take Plan B right away, it can prevent ovulation and conception, just like regular birth control. So wouldn't a Pro Life person want them to get the Plan B as soon as possible, so they do not kill a fertilized egg? or are you against birth control also?


What does it matter if it is stupid or contradictory here, the baseline is the choice to choose whether or not to carry it.  People are allowed to make stupid decisions all the time, it's called freedom.  The choice to not carry the drug seems pretty real to those that do not want to carry it and certainly not stupid to them.  Also, where did I say I was against plan b?  I do not believe the same way these pharmacist do but I know that, no matter what I believe, it is not my right to impose my beliefs on them.  Some here do not seem to understand that little concept.


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## Luissa (Jul 26, 2010)

I just think it is hypocritical. And I think if they refuse to sell it they are doing it for political reasons.


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## JBeukema (Jul 27, 2010)

Does it matter why the don't choose to carry a given product?

Does it matter whether the reason I don't sell cognac because I believe drinking is a sin, because I don't like rap, or because I run a bookstore?


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## Luissa (Jul 27, 2010)

JBeukema said:


> Does it matter why the don't choose to carry a given product?
> 
> Does it matter whether the reason I don't sell cognac because I believe drinking is a sin, because I don't like rap, or because I run a bookstore?



I want to know where I said they should be made to sell it? I simply said it was hypocritical.
And if they are going to use religious reasons as an excuse, maybe they should not sell other drugs that go against their religion.


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## Immanuel (Jul 27, 2010)

FA_Q2 said:


> Luissa said:
> 
> 
> > The point I am making is, it does the exact same thing as birth control. If you have IUD that prevents eggs from implanting, it is the same thing as taking Plan B after conception. All birth controls have progestrin in them, Plan B just has a higher dose. If the pharmacy is willing to sell Birth Control, it is pretty stupid, and very much political if they refuse to sell Plan B. For one if you take Plan B right away, it can prevent ovulation and conception, just like regular birth control. So wouldn't a Pro Life person want them to get the Plan B as soon as possible, so they do not kill a fertilized egg? or are you against birth control also?
> ...



I know everyone is hypocritical in some things, but I find it kind of funny when I see people who claim to be "pro-choice" showing that they are in fact, opposed to so many choices.  

Immie


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## Care4all (Jul 27, 2010)

the original plan B-EC is no longer being sold, it has been replaced with plan B-ONE STEP, and it must be taken within the first 24hours for it to be most effective and within 72 hours at the LATEST, giving the least effectiveness.

PLEASE do not continue saying that it is ok to take within 5 days/120 hours, you are passing along FALSE information which could affect the lives of people reading this thread....the 2 different prescriptions do not even have the same chemical ingredients in them...and also plan b-ec is NO LONGER available to purchase, it has been taken off the market.


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## JBeukema (Jul 27, 2010)

So because a women can't go to a different pharmacy in 24 hours or not be sluts in the first place, we should take over local businesses and tell them what to sell?

And before you even try the 'rape' bullshit- everyone here has supported making it available @ ERs and crisis centers.


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## Luissa (Jul 27, 2010)

JBeukema said:


> So because a women can't go to a different pharmacy in 24 hours or not be sluts in the first place, we should take over local businesses and tell them what to sell?
> 
> And before you even try the 'rape' bullshit- everyone here has supported making it available @ ERs and crisis centers.



not be sluts? So only sluts forget about birth control or have a condoms break?

How about we stick to the facts, and stop stereotyping.


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## Luissa (Jul 27, 2010)

Care4all said:


> the original plan B-EC is no longer being sold, it has been replaced with plan B-ONE STEP, and it must be taken within the first 24hours for it to be most effective and within 72 hours at the LATEST, giving the least effectiveness.
> 
> PLEASE do not continue saying that it is ok to take within 5 days/120 hours, you are passing along FALSE information which could affect the lives of people reading this thread....the 2 different prescriptions do not even have the same chemical ingredients in them...and also plan b-ec is NO LONGER available to purchase, it has been taken off the market.



There is also a Plan B two step still..   But you are very correct.


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## JBeukema (Jul 27, 2010)

Luissa said:


> JBeukema said:
> 
> 
> > So because a women can't go to a different pharmacy in 24 hours or not be sluts in the first place, we should take over local businesses and tell them what to sell?
> ...




If you're planning on being sexually active, you take bc. If you can't trust yourself to take a pill every day, get the rods.

Only relying on condoms? Accept responsibility for your actions and, if you're not using them properly, be prepared.

You have 72 hours according to the manufacturer and 5 days according to the doctors. Your being too lazy to go to a different pharmacy and too irresponsible to plan ahead is no reason for the State to effectively take over a business and tell a man what products he must sell.


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## Luissa (Jul 27, 2010)

JBeukema said:


> Luissa said:
> 
> 
> > JBeukema said:
> ...



Still doesn't explain why you implied only sluts need Plan B. And to me you sound like someone who doesn't really live in the real world.
This reminds me of you saying parents need to take care of their children because they were putting a library in a mall.


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## rikules (Jul 27, 2010)

FA_Q2 said:


> A new law here in Washington forces pharmacies to carry and sell the Plan B pill.  Owners of several pharmacies have filed lawsuit based on the freedom of religion claiming that Plan B is against their beliefs and they refuse to sell the contraceptive.  Lawmakers are contemplating changing the law to read that they do not have to carry Plan B if they refer customers to a nearby store that does sell the pill.
> 
> I wonder what the take on this concept is here.  I am somewhat taken aback by this as I would have thought that it would naturally be the right of the business owner to decide what he or she sells.  What right does the state have to mandate that a particular business sells anything.  I understand regulation and placing limitations on items that a business is allowed to sell but forcing one to sell something seems over the top.  What are your thoughts?
> 
> ...




I think that evangelical fundamentalist conservative christians who are pharmacists should have the right to NOT distribuet ANY DRUGS whatsoever!


they should just offer bibles and prayer sessions to anyone who comes into their pharmacy

and I think that evangelical fundamentalist conservative christians who are doctors, teachers, policemen, firmen, soldiers etc should NOT have to help any atheist or liberals or feminists, other than by praying at them and forcing them (at gunpoint?) to recite biblical verses.

anyone who denies an evangelical fundamentalist conservative christian from any profession simply because that evangelical fundamentalist conservative christian, due to his religious beliefs, is a deranged lunatic, is PERSECUTING christians!

and only evangelical fundamentalist conservative christian have a right to persecute other people


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## JBeukema (Jul 27, 2010)

If I don't live in the real world, where do I live? The matrix? A giant computer simulation, Mister Negotiator? 

This whole thing is about a bunch of lazy sluts who don't want to have to risk needing to go to a second pharmacy (or Planned Parenthood, the Health Dept., or the online store FA linked to earlier), so they want the State to begin taking over businesses and tell what a shopkeeper must sell.

Hell, they could even lie and go to a crisis center or the ER- everyone here has voiced support for making Plan B available in emergency rooms and crisis centers.

You know what, that's not what it's about at all.- because if it really were about access to BC, this wouldn't have ever been a problem. It's really about someone daring to act according to their own morality and not sell a product they don't think is right to sell. The only reason they chose BC and not alcohol to attack these christians over is because they know that by playing the victim and crying, they can get all the blind neofeminists to back them in their attack.

If it were about access to BC, then everyone here who's trying to dictate what these business owners must sell would've simply agreed to the solution proposed at the beginning of this thread.

We see this for what it is: big government trying to control businesses and anger at the thought of a Christian daring to act in accordance with their moral beliefs. It's just the latest example of power-hungry militant antitheists and totalitarian socialists trying to impose their will on all who differ with them or dare to stand in their way. And we don't like it.

You can try to wrap it up any way you please, but we see this for what it truly is and we're sure as hell not going to be silent and simply watch this shit continue. Any politician or officer who tries to enforce this crap should be tarred and feathered.


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## JBeukema (Jul 27, 2010)

rikules said:


> FA_Q2 said:
> 
> 
> > A new law here in Washington forces pharmacies to carry and sell the Plan B pill.  Owners of several pharmacies have filed lawsuit based on the freedom of religion claiming that Plan B is against their beliefs and they refuse to sell the contraceptive.  Lawmakers are contemplating changing the law to read that they do not have to carry Plan B if they refer customers to a nearby store that does sell the pill.
> ...



Nice strawman, but if you distribute no medicines, you're not a pharmacist, and if you practice no medicine, you're not a doctor (in the common sense; we're not talking PHDs and such here). 

You want to pray for people? Go ahead?  Wanna charge for it? Wouldn't be the first time someone made money off of gullible people, I suppose. Just be up front about it, like these pharmacists, and simply say 'we don't sell that product here' or 'I don't offer those services'.


As for selling bibles? Go ahead, but that makes you a book salesman, not a pharmacist.

And who said anything about 'denying an evangelical fundamentalist conservative christian from any profession  simply because that evangelical fundamentalist conservative christian'? Nobody said anything of the sort.

Now, if you're done trolling the thread, feel free to return when you're prepared to discuss things honestly like a grown-up.


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## FA_Q2 (Jul 27, 2010)

rikules said:


> FA_Q2 said:
> 
> 
> > A new law here in Washington forces pharmacies to carry and sell the Plan B pill.  Owners of several pharmacies have filed lawsuit based on the freedom of religion claiming that Plan B is against their beliefs and they refuse to sell the contraceptive.  Lawmakers are contemplating changing the law to read that they do not have to carry Plan B if they refer customers to a nearby store that does sell the pill.
> ...


The sad part is that this is the exact attitude you are pushing.  You think that liberal radicals should be able to completely ignore what a person believes and an individual's personal freedoms.  You are the one that is taking the position of forcing anyone to do anything.  Those of us against this type of law simply believe that people should have the freedom to make choices and sell what they wish to sell.  Can you not see how forcing people to sell anything is opposing simple freedom?


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## Care4all (Jul 28, 2010)

Luissa said:


> Care4all said:
> 
> 
> > the original plan B-EC is no longer being sold, it has been replaced with plan B-ONE STEP, and it must be taken within the first 24hours for it to be most effective and within 72 hours at the LATEST, giving the least effectiveness.
> ...



only until the supply of plan b ec, runs out, it has been replaced by plan b onestep  which is most effective if taken within the first 24 hours, least effective if taken within 72 hours.



> In 2009, the FDA approved Plan B One-Step. It is a one-dose regimen: you take one pill. The pill contains 1.5 milligrams of levonorgestrel. Research has shown that taking Plan B One-Step up to 72 hours after unprotected sex works just as well as Plan B. And it doesn't cause increased side effects. *So Plan B One-Step is replacing Plan B, although it may still be available in some pharmacies and health centers until supplies run out*.



Plan B (Morning-After Pill): Effectiveness and Side Effects


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## Care4all (Jul 28, 2010)

as far as the gvt telling a business what they can or can not do or can or can not sell....it is common practice with any licensed pharmacy!  THE RULES AND REGS AND DOS AND DON'TS ARE sky high for licensed pharmacies.

http://sos.ri.gov/documents/archives/regdocs/released/pdf//DOH/pharmacy-final-june06.pdf

they can't even sell their pharmacies without permission.


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## Care4all (Jul 28, 2010)

interesting article on how gynos are not telling their patients about plan b, seems they'd rather have the woman get pregnant and charge them for an abortion....

Doctors Not Telling Women About Plan B - CBS News


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## JBeukema (Jul 28, 2010)

Care4all said:


> as far as the gvt telling a business what they can or can not do or can or can not sell.




You really don't see the difference between saying what one may and may not sell (eg, what is legal or illegal to sell and purchase is a given district) and telling businesses what they *must* sell?


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## Care4all (Jul 28, 2010)

JBeukema said:


> Care4all said:
> 
> 
> > as far as the gvt telling a business what they can or can not do or can or can not sell.
> ...



i normally would agree with the pharmicist having the right to object to selling something that is religiously offensive to them JB....like RU 486, the abortion pill.

BUT because from all i have read on this plan b one step, and the need to take it immediately for its most effectiveness, I see it as an emergency and i see it reducing abortion, reducing the killing of an embryo or fetus.

And from the statistics on its useage, it truly is being used for emergency situations by a super majority.

I believe pharmacies should carry ALL EMERGENCY medicines/drugs, and if this were an emergency drug for an asthma attack, or stroke or whatever, I would support our pharmacies having to carry such as well.

I realize that in most cities or populated areas there is no need to force a pharmacy to carry the product because there are many places within reach for a person to get the drug, but in rural places, it is not as easy as you and other's claim.

Pharmacies are licenced businesses that are a critical part of our health care system and a service to the ENTIRE community.

I aso find it hypocrital of the pharmacist rejecting this drug while still carrying birth control pills, which is the same drug and does the same thing....  

IF the gynos were doing their job, and informing their patients with all birth control options available to them, and not excluding this plan b one step option....maybe this would not be a problem, and every informed sexually active female including those that are married but do not want more children than the 4 they already have, would have a dose of the plan b one step, in their medicine cabinets for the just in case mishap....and there would be no emergency need to get this from their pharmacy....

your comments on calling these women that need such sluts is uncalled for and pretty telling, about you....

the bottom line for me, is that this must be taken right away for its effectiveness, and I do not want to see more abortions, but fewer abortions.


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## Immanuel (Jul 28, 2010)

Care4all said:


> JBeukema said:
> 
> 
> > Care4all said:
> ...



I do not believe I have ever seen you argue for corporate rights in all the time I have known you, so I question where you get the, "i normally would agree with the pharmicist having the right to object to selling something..." statement.

Also, you mention RU-486, do you realize that with your support of Plan B because they call it "emergency contraception", that simply means that Roussel-Uclaf simply needs to add the word "emergency" to their label and then under this law, all pharmacists must also carry RU-486 regardless of religious beliefs?

Immie


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## Care4all (Jul 28, 2010)

Immanuel said:


> Care4all said:
> 
> 
> > JBeukema said:
> ...



I do believe you are wrong on your first statement.

And no, putting emergency before ru 486 would not do the trick, because i would have taken the time to read all about the drug as i have with plan b one step....  and ru 486 is not an emergency drug....it is a chemical abortion that is an alternative to a physical abortion.


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## Immanuel (Jul 28, 2010)

Care4all said:


> Immanuel said:
> 
> 
> > Care4all said:
> ...



I certainly do not recall you ever defending corporate rights.

You are not the one to decide whether or not RU-486 is emergency drugs or not.  The courts are and by their prior defense of the abortion industry there is no doubt they would declare it "emergency" medication.

Immie


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## JBeukema (Jul 28, 2010)

Care4all said:


> I see it as an emergency



It's not an emergency. An emergency is a situation where one is at serious risk of immediate death or injury if one does no receive immediate care.

The worst case scenario is that you find yourself in need of some pennyroyal tea or other abortifacient. 





> and i see it reducing abortion, reducing the killing of an embryo or fetus.



So are condoms, regular BC, and really cheap perfumes that  make you smell bad so you don't get laid in the first place.





> And from the statistics on its useage, it truly is being used for emergency situations by a super majority.



Again, we're not talking about any emergencies here. The only time this would coincide with an emergency would be in case of sexual assault, and everyone here has voiced support for making it available at hospitals, women's centers, etc.

You are wholly unable to present any valid reason for talking over these businesses.





> I believe pharmacies should carry ALL EMERGENCY medicines/drugs



That's fine. When they stop carrying emergency drugs such as those FA mentioned earlier, we'll discuss it.





> , and if this were an emergency drug for an asthma attack, or stroke or whatever, I would support our pharmacies having to carry such as well.



Stroke, heart attack, or the most serious asthma attacks can lead to death or serious injury without treatment. Irresponsibility with your bf/the guy you met at the bar does not constitute an emergency. It constitutes stupidity.

Pregnancy =/= Death

That you people have to resort to such dishonest tricks and spin highlights the fact that you have no real case. It's not surprising though, I already called this out for what it is in post 487





> I realize that in most cities or populated areas there is no need to force a pharmacy to carry the product because there are many places within reach for a person to get the drug, but in rural places, it is not as easy as you and other's claim.



You want everyone to have access to bc? fine. Distribute it through public channels. That's what the Health Department is for. If you really cared about the women and this was truly about access to bc, you wouldn't be trying so hard to turn this into an excuse to take over businesses and find a way to stick it to those mean old Christians who dare to think differently than you.





> Pharmacies are licenced businesses that are a critical part of our health care system and a service to the ENTIRE community.



They're not part of 'our health care system' unless they're publicly owned. They might provide some medical supplies or services, but they are private sector. The public sector, which the State may use to make such drugs available are the public hospitals and the Health Department.





> I aso find it hypocrital of the pharmacist rejecting this drug while still carrying birth control pills, which is the same drug and does the same thing....



So? I find it hypocritical and retarded that a store sells wine but not beer, even though wine has more alcohol than beer and they try to justify it by saying 'we don't sell beer and liquor'. That doesn't mean the State should make them sell Sam Adams Cherry Wheat just so I don't have to go somewhere else or go to the library and buy it online.


> IF the gynos were doing their job, and informing their patients with all birth control options available to them, and not excluding this plan b one step option...



If you've evidence that medical professionals are not doing their job, then make a thread about it and we can address it and rectify the problem if it exists.





> .maybe this would not be a problem, and every informed sexually active female including those that are married but do not want more children than the 4 they already have, would have a dose of the plan b one step, in their medicine cabinets for the just in case mishap....and there would be no emergency need to get this from their pharmacy....



I've never even met a gyno. But I've heard the radio, been online, watched TV, and spoken to people outside of a fundamentalist church in the middle of the Midwest. Oh, and I went to school some years back and had sex ed classes.

With very few exceptions, any woman ignorant of bc, including Plan B, is that way purely of her own fault. All she has to do is enter any college, feminists coffeeshoppe, library- or get on Google- and the information is all out there for anyone who wants it.

Let's perform an experiment.

I'm going to google 'I forget to use birth control'


The fourth listing includes the following:

If you think there could be a chance that you are pregnant (and you don't want to be), Emergency Contraception (Plan B) is always an option.   It is available in many pharmacies over the counter without a  prescription if you're over 18. Something that I have always found to be  effective is to set the alarm on your cell phone or outlook calendar to  remind you!

That link?



> Has this scenario ever happened to you? The condom breaks while having sex?   It happens all the time, but luckily there is EC (Emergency  Contraception) or the "Morning After" pill as a backup -- accidents do  happen!
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Now let's Google 'Plan B birth control'

(since, you know, we never went to high school, watched tv, listened to the radio, asked a librarian about birth control, or been in a city before now)

First result:
Plan B&#174; One-Step: Home

Well, I'll be.


Let's click 'pharmacy locator'


Let's try Olympia, Washington, since that's where this story appears to be taking place


Holy snap, there are twenty-five locations listed, including a Rite-Aid-- a major company where the store manager can't do like the owner of Ralph's. It also says Safeway has it, and there's a Walgreens. And a Target... Ralph's is still listed; they need to update that. Good thing it lists the address and phone number for each location as well.

Now.... you really expect us to believe that Walgreens, Walmart, Rite-Aid, and Target are all going to suddenly decide Plan B is evil and not something they want to make money off of?

You people are creating a bogey out of nothing and using dishonest scare tactics to get people to go along with yet another power grab by the totalitarian socialists who call themselves 'progressives' today and pretend to care about women whenever it seems like a good way to forward their own agenda and feed their desire for control.

Three pharmacies, according to the article, are fighting this. Three. Plan B's own website lists 25 pharmacy's that they know of they are carrying it (with the exception of Ralph's, bringing the number to 24).



> the bottom line for me, is that this must be taken right away for its effectiveness, and I do not want to see more abortions, but fewer abortions.



The bottom line is you have at least 24 other pharmacies to go to. Not to mention going down to* 402 Legion Way, Suite 201  

**Walk-in Services*

                 Pregnancy tests and emergency contraception.


Health Services - Olympia, WA - Planned Parenthood - Olympia Health Center


*

*or clicking Order Emergency Contraception


You really think Planned Parenthood is going to stop carrying Plan B if the State doesn't force those women-hating monsters to give women the option of not having a baby?

But don't let the facts get in the way. there are more important things than the women here, right? After all, those evil Christians are still living according to their morals and still have the freedom to run their private enterprises and sell only what they wish. They must be stopped!


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## JBeukema (Jul 28, 2010)

And btw, Googling 'olympia washington emergency contraception free' gave me the address, phone number, hours of operation, and online ordering for Planned Parenthoood in .32 second. It;s the first result.


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## Immanuel (Jul 28, 2010)

Care4all said:


> I believe pharmacies should carry ALL EMERGENCY medicines/drugs, and if this were an emergency drug for an asthma attack, or stroke or whatever, I would support our pharmacies having to carry such as well.



What do you consider an emergency drug?

Emergency care is care given when a life is in danger of being lost and under NO CIRCUMSTANCES should a person needing *emergency care* go to a pharmacists instead of a hospital.  I have to disagree with you, pharmacies should not be carrying emergency drugs, those should be distributed at a hospital.

Definition of Emergency Medicine



> Emergency medicine is the medical specialty dedicated to the diagnosis and treatment of unforeseen illness or injury. It encompasses a unique body of knowledge as set forth in the "Model of the Clinical Practice of Emergency Medicine."1 The practice of emergency medicine includes the initial evaluation, diagnosis, treatment, and disposition of any patient requiring expeditious medical, surgical, or psychiatric care. Emergency medicine may be practiced in a hospital-based or freestanding emergency department (ED), in an urgent care clinic, in an emergency medical response vehicle or at a disaster site.



More at site

Simply because the makers of Plan B want to call it, "emergency" contraception, does not mean this is truly an emergency.  Plan B does NOT fit the definition of emergency pharmaceuticals nor does the medical issue it seeks to mitigate qualify as an emergency.

Immie


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## FA_Q2 (Jul 28, 2010)

JBeukema said:


> Care4all said:
> 
> 
> > I believe pharmacies should carry ALL EMERGENCY medicines/drugs
> ...


Actually, my original point was that they currently DO NOT CARRY some of those medications.  They already have stopped carrying those meds because the costs involved.  Not ONE person here has voiced concern over this minus the ONE statement that care made above but there is a HUGE push to require plan b carried and sold no matter what.  That is gross hypocrisy and covers the true intent here: control.  

Still I ask more questions that have not been answered.  Should all pharmacies be required to be open 24/7?  I have not seen a response to whether or not a long 3 day weekend should be allowed because they are selling 'emergency' medications.  No one wants to address the issues because they know there is no real stance here: there is NO reason that a pharmacy should EVER be required to sell anything.  Plain and simple.  Should you continue down the path that makes them carry 'emergency' medications then you would need to require that they are also readily available at all times - no closing or holidays.  No weekends or other closures at all.  All medications sold weather profitable, needed or even practical.  The fact is there are places that fill this role - hospitals.  We most certainly do not need pharmacies to be forced into it when there is a place for these requirements.


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## Biggles (Jul 28, 2010)

A doctor has a right to refuse performing an abortion.  

Therefore, a pharmacist has a right to refuse to carry or provide Plan B pills.


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## Luissa (Jul 28, 2010)

JBeukema said:


> Care4all said:
> 
> 
> > I see it as an emergency
> ...



Planned Parenthood isn't open on weekends and some holidays, what if it is a three day weekend?


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## Luissa (Jul 28, 2010)

JBeukema said:


> If I don't live in the real world, where do I live? The matrix? A giant computer simulation, Mister Negotiator?
> 
> This whole thing is about a bunch of lazy sluts who don't want to have to risk needing to go to a second pharmacy (or Planned Parenthood, the Health Dept., or the online store FA linked to earlier), so they want the State to begin taking over businesses and tell what a shopkeeper must sell.
> 
> ...



I bet the lazy sluts you are referencing don't even give a shit one way or another.
And if they don't want to carry it, it isn't a big deal here. If I lived in a smaller town, I would care, because if no one carries it, I would be screwed any way you look at it. It is also very hypocritical. If they are going to refuse one drug because of their beliefs they better refuse viagra and other drugs that go against their beliefs.


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## JBeukema (Jul 29, 2010)

Luissa said:


> JBeukema said:
> 
> 
> > Care4all said:
> ...




Some pharmacies aren't open on weekends or holidays.


Clearly, we need a law forcing Planned Parenthood to be open 24/7.


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## JBeukema (Jul 29, 2010)

Luissa said:


> Planned Parenthood isn't open on weekends and some holidays, what if it is a three day weekend?


I guess you'll have to be responsible, then, won't you? 

Shame there isn't regular birth control or any way to end a pregnancy after implantation before the child really begins to develop or anything....


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## JBeukema (Jul 29, 2010)

Luissa said:


> If I lived in a smaller town, I would care, because if no one carries it, I would be screwed any way you look at it.



Yes, since there's no other way to prevent pregnancy, it can't be ordered online, and once impregnation occurs it's impossible to stop it 




> It is also very hypocritical. If they are going to refuse one drug because of their beliefs they better refuse viagra and other drugs that go against their beliefs.




Yes... if you can't tell them what they shall and shan't sell, they'd best sell what you say they shall and not sell what you say they shan't


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## Immanuel (Jul 29, 2010)

Luissa said:


> Planned Parenthood isn't open on weekends and some holidays, what if it is a three day weekend?



Is that justification for forcing a business to carry a product it does not wish to sell?

Immie


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## topspin (Jul 29, 2010)

wow between this and giving bible thumper answers in the homophobe thread, my christian faux outrage meter has just broke.


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## JBeukema (Jul 29, 2010)

Luissa said:


> JBeukema said:
> 
> 
> > Care4all said:
> ...



Actually they're open six days a week


*                 Hours of Operation               *

                                                                                              Mon                     Tues                     Wed                     Thurs                     Fri                     Sat                     Sun                                                                                             *Open*                     8:30am                     7:30am                     9:30am                     10:00am                     8:00am                     8:30am                     --                                                           *Close*                     5:00pm                     4:00pm                     6:00pm                     6:30pm                     4:30pm                     4:30pm                     --


And you have 3 days to take it according to the box (5 according to the doctors)


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## FA_Q2 (Jul 29, 2010)

topspin said:


> wow between this and giving bible thumper answers in the homophobe thread, my christian faux outrage meter has just broke.



I am not a Christian.  I guess you don't actually have a point, do you.  This thread alone makes my faux radical liberal rage meter break.  It is all about control.


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## Cecilie1200 (Jul 29, 2010)

Luissa said:


> JBeukema said:
> 
> 
> > Care4all said:
> ...



Interesting how this issue is important enough for supporters to deny other people their First Amendment rights, but not important enough for them to put themselves out to be available to administer these drugs to women themselves.


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## Cecilie1200 (Jul 29, 2010)

Luissa said:


> JBeukema said:
> 
> 
> > If I don't live in the real world, where do I live? The matrix? A giant computer simulation, Mister Negotiator?
> ...



And who are you to define their beliefs and what goes against those beliefs for them, or tell them how to practice their beliefs?


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