# Explosions in Kiev?



## Dante (Feb 18, 2014)

where is the thread?


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## Dante (Feb 18, 2014)

Fires, violence, explosions what a friggin' shame. The government will have to respond


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## Victory67 (Feb 18, 2014)

Very sad.


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## jon_berzerk (Feb 18, 2014)

Dante said:


> where is the thread?



Ukraine police storm main Kiev 'Maidan' protest camp

Ukrainian police are storming the main anti-government protest camp in the capital, Kiev, after months of occupation.

Explosions are taking place, fireworks are being thrown and large fires have broken out in Independence Square, known locally as the Maidan.

Police have deployed water cannon.

During the day, at least 13 people were killed, including six policemen, as protesters and security forces clashed in the worst violence in weeks

BBC News - Ukraine police storm main Kiev 'Maidan' protest camp


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## Victory67 (Feb 18, 2014)

I don't want Ukraine to be slaves to EU membership and the Euro, but they also need to not be under the bootheal of Russian Imperialism.


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## jon_berzerk (Feb 18, 2014)

live 

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y_LFrMcoEm4#t=1368065]Espreso TV - LIVE - YouTube[/ame]


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## Dante (Feb 18, 2014)

jon_berzerk said:


> Dante said:
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Why did police _storm_ camp?


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## L.K.Eder (Feb 18, 2014)

klitschko vs. janukowitsch, soon.


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## Victory67 (Feb 18, 2014)

Dante said:


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Isn't obvious?  The camp and protestors are a pain in the ass to authoritarian-like control.

Kind of like how the Colonialists were a pain in the ass to King George.


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## L.K.Eder (Feb 18, 2014)

Dante said:


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they were given orders.

obviously a bad call.


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## CaféAuLait (Feb 18, 2014)

Dante said:


> Fires, violence, explosions what a friggin' shame. The government will have to respond



Its being reported at least 14 dead. Its being reported as well that protesters set fire to ruling party's headquarters. 

At least 14 dead in fiery Kiev protests | News - Home


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## Victory67 (Feb 18, 2014)

The danger is that apparently the USA and Ukraine both signed a treaty in the 1990s that they would maintain the security and integrity of Ukraine.  Putin could use this to justify sending in troops to end the rebellion.


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## Dante (Feb 18, 2014)

Victory67 said:


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Huh?  No comparison. The colonists used every means possible to peacefully resolve the issues. The American colonists did not start out rebelling for a break with England. The 'revolutionaries' weren't very revolutionary or reactionary until the situation forced a choice


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## Dante (Feb 18, 2014)

Victory67 said:


> The danger is that apparently the USA and Ukraine both signed a treaty in the 1990s that they would maintain the security and integrity of Ukraine.  Putin could use this to justify sending in troops to end the rebellion.





The Russians should have signed one and that would give them reason. Russians do not want to provoke a showdown over that.

you really need to stop being so alarmists and silly


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## Victory67 (Feb 18, 2014)

Dante said:


> Victory67 said:
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> > The danger is that apparently the USA and Ukraine both signed a treaty in the 1990s that they would maintain the security and integrity of Ukraine.  Putin could use this to justify sending in troops to end the rebellion.
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A senior aid to Putin has already stated that he might be forced to send in troops to deal with the situation.

Putin aide warns U.S. on Ukraine, says Russia could act


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## Vox (Feb 18, 2014)

Dante said:


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becasue they are criminals and slaves of the "golden toilet" ( that's  one  of the nicknames of the regime and personally the felon president).


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## Dante (Feb 18, 2014)

Victory67 said:


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Thought you were saying Putin would use US/Ukraine treaty as an excuse. People here often say crazy things


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## Victory67 (Feb 18, 2014)

Dante said:


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"Sergei Glazyev, an adviser to President Vladimir Putin with responsibility for relations with Ukraine, told a newspaper that U.S. "interference" breached the 1994 treaty under which Washington and Moscow jointly guaranteed Ukraine's security and sovereignty after Kiev gave up its Soviet-era nuclear arsenal."


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## L.K.Eder (Feb 18, 2014)

this calls for a salomonic judgment. ukraine will be split. the western part associates with the EU, the eastern part merges with putinistan. give the population 4 weeks to relocate if desired, a la punjab. should go down swimmingly.


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## Vox (Feb 18, 2014)

Victory67 said:


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that's just standard Russian fairy tales for their stupid people.
Putin can't see Russia not being an empire.
He wants the USSR back to where it was - a variation of russian empire.
Ukraine and all others - do not.

US is irrelevant as is EU.


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## Vox (Feb 18, 2014)

L.K.Eder said:


> this calls for a salomonic judgment. ukraine will be split. the western part associates with the EU, the eastern part merges with putinistan. give the population 4 weeks to relocate if desired, a la punjab. should go down swimmingly.



in your dreams, dumbo. Ukraine will not be split.


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## Vox (Feb 18, 2014)

Dante said:


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he might. his main excuse is  "western interference" in what he perceives as "his" canonical territory.


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## Victory67 (Feb 18, 2014)

Vox said:


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Russian military invasion of Ukraine would cross a line that NATO might not tolerate.


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## L.K.Eder (Feb 18, 2014)

Vox said:


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> > this calls for a salomonic judgment. ukraine will be split. the western part associates with the EU, the eastern part merges with putinistan. give the population 4 weeks to relocate if desired, a la punjab. should go down swimmingly.
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newsflash: ukraine is already split, and has been for years.


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## Vox (Feb 18, 2014)

Victory67 said:


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maybe. It sure as hell will be the beginning of the major war in the region.

Ukraine is NOT Belarus.

People would not go back to slavery without resistance. If needed - a bloody one.


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## Vox (Feb 18, 2014)

L.K.Eder said:


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and you know this how? you speak fluent Russian? Ukrainian? have been there ever? read the major Russian speaking and Ukrainian speaking internet sites ( from all spectrum)?

or just listen to the ignorant repetitive mantras of some ignorant pro-Russian journalists?

Do you know that there, on the Maidan ( if you even know what it is) 20% of the people are from Russian speaking East and South?
Of course, you do not.

Ukraine will not be split. Period.
As it is not.

This regime united it as never before.


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## L.K.Eder (Feb 18, 2014)

Vox said:


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calm down, aarftaaard.

i can read election results, election maps, and remember the 2004 presidential elections. you can whine all you want, but janukowitsch has a lot of support in eastern ukraine. in the donbass, you know , where russian is the majority language, dolt.


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## Dante (Feb 18, 2014)

Dante said:
			
		

> Victory67 said:
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> > The danger is that apparently the USA and Ukraine both signed a treaty in the 1990s that they would maintain the security and integrity of Ukraine.  Putin could use this to justify sending in troops to end the rebellion.
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Victory67 said:


> Dante said:
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  You wrote "_The danger is that apparently the USA and Ukraine both signed a treaty in the 1990s that they would maintain the security and integrity of Ukraine. Putin could use this to justify sending in troops to end the rebellion._" which is different than _"the 1994 treaty under which Washington and Moscow jointly guaranteed Ukraine's security and sovereignty after Kiev gave up its Soviet-era nuclear arsenal._"

Now:  _Asked by Kommersant-Ukraine daily whether Russia might "actively intervene" if the country's crisis deepened, Glazyev recalled the Budapest Memorandum of 1994: "Under the document, Russia and the USA are guarantors of the sovereignty and territorial integrity of Ukraine and ... are obliged to intervene when conflict situations of this nature arise._

Putin aide warns US on Ukraine, says Russia could act | Reuters


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## Vox (Feb 18, 2014)

L.K.Eder said:


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oh, so you don't know shit but refer to the ignorance of the media which supposedly has to know the current moment not what happened 4 years ago 
then shut the fuck up, dumbo, and stop spewing idiocy.
you might look less retarded.


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## L.K.Eder (Feb 18, 2014)

Vox said:


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thanks for acknowledging what is obvious. the split. in your "hey, 20% on the maidan speak russian". hahaha.


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## Toro (Feb 18, 2014)

L.K.Eder said:


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My wife has relatives in the Ukraine.  We brought one over to Canada.  She wasn't wearing any shoes when she got on the plane.  

hahahahaha

Anyways, you are absolutely correct.  The Ukraine is basically split between Ukrainians in the west and Russians in the east.


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## L.K.Eder (Feb 18, 2014)

Toro said:


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it is an obvious fact. see language split.


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## Toro (Feb 18, 2014)

L.K.Eder said:


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Part of it was how borders were drawn.  Part of it was that Moscow wanted to colonize it's empire.


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## whitehall (Feb 18, 2014)

Ukraine has it's own president but it looks as though Putin is determined to tighten the screws.  Don't look for any leadership from Secretary 'O State John Kerry. Last seen Kerry was comparing global warming to a 3-D movie and Barry Hussein was enjoying another three day weekend playing golf.


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## Sallow (Feb 18, 2014)

Well, if you are a commiecon..Putin of course.


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## freedombecki (Feb 18, 2014)

whitehall said:


> Ukraine has it's own president but it looks as though Putin is determined to tighten the screws. Don't look for any leadership from Secretary 'O State John Kerry. Last seen Kerry was comparing global warming to a 3-D movie and Barry Hussein was enjoying another three day weekend playing golf.



Geeze, maybe we oughta put in government leaders who are actually interested in their own cabinet's works instead of somebody else's. It seems to me the person in charge of state arrangements has plenty to do without running the EPA.


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## hjmick (Feb 18, 2014)

Is the chicken safe?


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## gipper (Feb 19, 2014)

How long before the stinking American interventionists demand the USA send troops?

CRAZY!


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## Camp (Feb 19, 2014)

L.K.Eder said:


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Everyone in Ukraine speaks Russian. East Europeans speak their native language, Russian and more often than not workable english. It is a standard joke all over Europe that the way to truely tell if a person is American is that they only speak one language.
That said, Russians are Russians. They are immigrants to Ukraine. They may be Ukrainian citizens whose parents or grandparents settled in Ukraine, but if they side with Russia they will be considered Russian and not Ukrainian. To be Ukrainian the Ukrainians with Russian ancestry will have to stand with the ethnic Ukrainians and prove they are worthy of calling themselve Ukrainian.
They build storage sheds out of bricks in Ukraine. In the middle of the steppes, the country, the middle of nowhere, they built thier outbuildings out of stone and bricks. It told me alot about the Ukrainian people when I saw this while on a long road trip criss crossing the country.


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## Kondor3 (Feb 19, 2014)

Large sections of Kiev's Independence Square and other areas of Kiev are in flames...







More than 25 dead (protesters, mostly) in the past 24 hours...

Ukrainian police and army personnel going-over to the protester's side...

The Russians snarking about US involvement...

The US contemplating a further involvement, unilaterally or via NATO, in some heretofore undetermined manner and extent or another, according to video news programming this morning on CNN...

The EU contemplating sanctions against Ukraine, according to the BBC earlier today...

What the heck is happening?

And why should we care?

And how does it involve us, if at all?

And what are the risks?

And what are the possible outcomes?

Where is this going?

And should we be worried?


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## Meathead (Feb 19, 2014)

Although the Ukraine is squarely in the Russian sphere of influence, Kiev and the country's west are largely pro-Europe and anti-Russian while in the east Russia holds sway. There is little the US or NATO can practically do even if Russia were to invade in support of the current government. A civil war and even a partition of the country is not out of the question.


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## namvet (Feb 19, 2014)

who cares ??


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## Manchester (Feb 19, 2014)

Kondor3 said:


> What the heck is happening?
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> And why should we care?
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Pro EU public and pro russian government are at loggerheads, essentially a breakdown of democracy as the people want something the government don't.

Other than innocent people dying being something we all care about I don't know.

Seeing as how the EU is western and so are we then we are probably roughly on the side of the protestors. Probably.

More people might die, in an exception circumstance thr russian might send in their army after requests from the Ukrainian government and there might be a diplomatic spat with Vlad the Putin.

I dunno.

Probably a few more nights of violence followed by a solutuion which is accepted by many and liked by few.

No.


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## Meathead (Feb 19, 2014)

namvet said:


> who cares ??


Those who are interested.


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## namvet (Feb 19, 2014)




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## iamwhatiseem (Feb 19, 2014)

Right or wrong, this administration will not get involved...well besides lip service I mean.
If it does not settle down, then Putin will take care of it and the people will lose what freedoms they have left.


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## Katzndogz (Feb 19, 2014)

Someone should just tell the Ukrainians that the president won the election and they need to get over it.  His word is law and they just have to suck it up and deal with it.

Like democrats tell Americans.


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## R.C. Christian (Feb 19, 2014)

The result of western meddling. These people have more balls the the average American sheep.


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## Camp (Feb 19, 2014)

R.C. Christian said:


> The result of western meddling. These people have more balls the the average American sheep.



They are shooting Ukraine security forces. They prevented reserve forces from leaving one city to support the security forces in Kiev. A judge who jailed protesters has been murdered. The only thing Ukrainians need from Russia is gas and oil.


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## O.R.I.O.N (Feb 19, 2014)

Ukraine Protests: Israeli Ex-Officer Leads Militant Group

Well that's all I need to know about who to support. The leader of the Ukraine needs to stomp this shit out now. Send in riot police with tanks and end it.


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## O.R.I.O.N (Feb 19, 2014)

Ukrainian media has also said that an Israeli tycoon provides financial support to the opposition in Ukraine, adding that Israel's Mossad intelligence agency is one of the instigators of the unrest in the country.
Noooo! Jews wouldn't meddle in another countries business now would they!?


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## Victory67 (Feb 19, 2014)

"Blaim it on the JOOOOOOOS"


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## O.R.I.O.N (Feb 19, 2014)

Holy shit...you joined this month and have managed to rack up over 1k posts already...do you not sleep troll?


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## Ringel05 (Feb 19, 2014)

O.R.I.O.N said:


> Holy shit...you joined this month and have managed to rack up over 1k posts already...*do you not sleep troll?*



OH THE IRONY!!!!!


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## O.R.I.O.N (Feb 19, 2014)

Don't like the thread,don't read it. Pretty simple concept even you can understand.


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## tinydancer (Feb 20, 2014)

I'm starting to really get pissed off. I'm going to be firing off some emails tonight.

These so called peaceful protestors have killed policemen and currently hold 67 police hostage.

Is Obama or my PM Harper or PM Cameron or anyone at the EU going to tell me that they would allow violent protests on Capitol Hill or Parliament Hill?

Allow protestors to kill policemen and capture them and hold them hostage?

I'm really not understanding this "holier than though" bullshit from our leaders.

Protestors really kicked the violence up to this new level. Would Obama or my Prime Minister just la dee da let your or mine Hill police come under attack?

I'm sick to death of this bullshit by our leaders. Fix some pot holes, fix the economy and shut the fuck up. 

*The latest bout of street violence began Tuesday when protesters attacked police lines and set fires outside parliament, accusing Yanukovych of ignoring their demands to enact constitutional reforms that would once again limit the president's power.
*

At Least 22 Dead as Truce Collapses in Ukraine


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## g5000 (Feb 20, 2014)

tinydancer said:


> At Least 22 Dead as Truce Collapses in Ukraine


From  your own link:



> An AP cameraman saw* snipers shooting at protesters *in Kiev and video footage showed at least one sniper wearing a Ukraine riot police uniform.
> 
> The carnage appears to show that neither Yanukovych nor the opposition leaders appear to be in control of the chaos engulfing Ukraine.
> 
> Dr. Oleh Musiy, the top medical coordinator for the protesters told the AP that *at least 70 protesters were killed Thursday and over 500 injured*, and the death toll could well rise further.



The government has been imposing a brutal crackdown on the people, and they are starting to fight back.  Did you want them to just take a beating lying down?

This is a battle between the people who want to align with the West, and the leadership which wants to align with Putin.

It is absolutely fascinating you are lining up on Putin's side.


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## JakeStarkey (Feb 20, 2014)

Yup, align with West or align with Russia.

No middle way and violence is the order of the day.


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## occupied (Feb 20, 2014)

It is a universal right to protest against your leader's refusal to listen through normal channels, if the riot squad shows up you can't just be pussies and go home, freedom must occasionally be wrested from the hands of bad people and it is frequently messy. What is the deal with so-called freedom loving Americans having such a dim view of popular revolt against tyranny?


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## Decus (Feb 20, 2014)

Ukranians are sick of the corruption and protesting for something better. The government wants to hold on to power and are willing to go to any length to do so:

_""Associated Press journalist Yuras Karmanau describes the carnage in Kiev: "When I walked out into the Maidan, clad in a helmet and a flak jacket, I saw bodies lying on the pavement. Ten in one place, another six a short walk away, five more farther away. *The demonstrators were killed with precise shots to their heads or necks, the hallmarks of snipers*.""_ 

BBC News - LIVE: Ukraine unrest: Clashes in central Kiev

You could also check out this live feed from the Ukraine. Every 30 minutes or so they show the days' events - one segment is protestors hiding bend homemade shields being picked off by police snipers. Very clear and very graphic so don't watch if this may be upsetting to you.

Live

http://www.kyivpost.com  is a Ukranian newspaper in English whose editor is American.


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## Decus (Feb 20, 2014)

Posted twice. Sorry.


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## Katzndogz (Feb 20, 2014)

If you support the protesters, would you support rioting protester is they were in the US protesting against obama's policies?  Or, would you say "He was elected get over it"?


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## g5000 (Feb 20, 2014)

While the Ukraine is not technically a part of Russia, Russia has identified the Ukraine as being a part of Russia for centuries.  Russia is not going to let their breadbasket go easily.

This was all sparked by a trade deal.  Ukraine was on the verge of signing a landmark trade deal with the EU when their President, Viktor Yanukovych, decided to pull out of the talks.  He did so under great pressure from Putin.


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## tinydancer (Feb 20, 2014)

g5000 said:


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Oh bite me. 

I'm not lining up on Putin's side. I have no idea where on earth you read that in my post.

I'm just asking the question would Obama or Harper allow these violent protests to continue on Capitol Hill or the White House or in Canada Parliament Hill or 24 Sussex Drive?

Would Obama or Harper allow policemen who were sent in to disband the camp to be killed? 

Would Obama or Harper allow 67 policemen to be captured? I find this holier than thou attitude from Western Leaders really disturbing.

Oh and one more time the protestors were the ones who upped the game. Would Obama or Harper think it would be AOK for protestors to firebomb police?

* One camp commander, Oleh Mykhnyuk, told the AP even after the truce, protesters still threw firebombs at riot police on the square. As the sun rose, police pulled back, the protesters followed them and police then began shooting at them, he said.
*

Oh and police have been shot by these bullshit peaceful protestors. 






At Least 22 Dead as Truce Collapses in Ukraine


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## g5000 (Feb 20, 2014)

Katzndogz said:


> If you support the protesters, would you support rioting protester is they were in the US protesting against obama's policies?  Or, would you say "He was elected get over it"?



We have had many public protests over Obama and ObamaCare.  Remember Glenn Beck's big tearjerker in DC?

We also saw a lot of Tea Partiers swept into power over ObamaCare.

What we did not see was a government cracking heads and jailing dissidents such as we see in the Ukraine.

Thanks for the opportunity to point out the apples and oranges of the US and the Ukraine.

You are one special idiot for taking Putin's side in this.  What the ever loving fuck has gotten into you people?  You're swallowing a yard of a Russian strongman's cock now?


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## tinydancer (Feb 20, 2014)

Decus said:


> Ukranians are sick of the corruption and protesting for something better. The government wants to hold on to power and are willing to go to any length to do so:
> 
> _""Associated Press journalist Yuras Karmanau describes the carnage in Kiev: "When I walked out into the Maidan, clad in a helmet and a flak jacket, I saw bodies lying on the pavement. Ten in one place, another six a short walk away, five more farther away. *The demonstrators were killed with precise shots to their heads or necks, the hallmarks of snipers*.""_
> 
> ...



The issue I am bringing up in my OP is not whether or not peaceful protests can take place, but what should any leader do with massively violet protests?

Our leaders are condemning the Ukrainian President. 

But what the hell would they do if on Capitol Hill violent protestors armed with firebombs, definitely molotov cocktails and weapons were killing and capturing Hill police?

Do nothing?


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## Katzndogz (Feb 20, 2014)

g5000 said:


> While the Ukraine is not technically a part of Russia, Russia has identified the Ukraine as being a part of Russia for centuries.  Russia is not going to let their breadbasket go easily.
> 
> This was all sparked by a trade deal.  Ukraine was on the verge of signing a landmark trade deal with the EU when their President, Viktor Yanukovych, decided to pull out of the talks.  He did so under great pressure from Putin.



Yanukovych was duly elected.   Elections have consequences.   Americans should take to the streets in response to obama's policies too.   

Russia also kicked in 15 billion dollars.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/02/18/w...n-opposition-leaders.html?hpw&rref=world&_r=0

Mr. Yanukovych negotiated the $15 billion loan with President Vladimir V. Putin of Russia in December, and Ukraine received a first segment of this soon afterward when Russia purchased Ukrainian bonds worth $3 billion. But Russia suspended further payments last month after violent street clashes in Kiev and the resignation of Ukraines Russian-born prime minister.

On Monday, however, Mr. Putin again showed his talent for putting rivals off balance when Russias finance minister, Anton Siluanov, told reporters during a visit to the Russian town of Cherepovets that Moscow would this week purchase a further $2 billion of Ukrainian bonds. This indicated that Moscow has now reactivated the previously suspended credit offer.


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## occupied (Feb 20, 2014)

Decus said:


> Ukranians are sick of the corruption and protesting for something better. The government wants to hold on to power and are willing to go to any length to do so:
> 
> _""Associated Press journalist Yuras Karmanau describes the carnage in Kiev: "When I walked out into the Maidan, clad in a helmet and a flak jacket, I saw bodies lying on the pavement. Ten in one place, another six a short walk away, five more farther away. *The demonstrators were killed with precise shots to their heads or necks, the hallmarks of snipers*.""_
> 
> ...



The conservatives on this board need to take a good look at what tyranny actually looks like and consider that they seem like spoiled infants when they talk of horrible tyranny like taxes and social programs here.


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## g5000 (Feb 20, 2014)

tinydancer said:


> Decus said:
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Wow.  You are really guzzling Putin's piss, eh?  "Massively violent protests".  Wow.




tinydancer said:


> Our leaders are condemning the Ukrainian President.
> 
> But what the hell would they do if on Capitol Hill violent protestors armed with firebombs, definitely molotov cocktails and weapons were killing and capturing Hill police?
> 
> Do nothing?



Did you just turn on your TV only a day ago? That's what I am betting.  You came late to the game and have somehow gotten it into your airy head that the Ukrainian people just now spontaneously burst into violence completely unprovoked.

That's what this is, isn't it.  You are coming from total ignorance of the events leading up to this moment.


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## g5000 (Feb 20, 2014)

I remember when Obama sent some Cossacks to horsewhip Glenn Beck.  Don't you?


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## tinydancer (Feb 20, 2014)

g5000 said:


> While the Ukraine is not technically a part of Russia, Russia has identified the Ukraine as being a part of Russia for centuries.  Russia is not going to let their breadbasket go easily.
> 
> This was all sparked by a trade deal.  Ukraine was on the verge of signing a landmark trade deal with the EU when their President, Viktor Yanukovych, decided to pull out of the talks.  He did so under great pressure from Putin.



I'm Ukrainian Irish as my background. I have relatives in the Ukraine. Very aware of what is going on and of course am painfully aware of the USSR's brutal ways with my brethren. 

That's not what my OP is about though. 

I'm just seriously asking where the hell do our leaders get off spouting "bad bad bad" leader and condemning violence that is occuring only on one side.

Reports are that even the opposition leader who had tried to help with the truce has no control.

This is an armed insurrection now. Should any government just allow these violent protestors to run rampant burning buildings and kidnapping and killing police?


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## Katzndogz (Feb 20, 2014)

The Ukranian president negotiated a 15 billion dollar loan from Russia.   Should we take to the streets over obama's trillions of dollars in loans from China?

Get to the bottom of it, and it might be paid obama agitators sent to the Ukraine just to start this kind of trouble.


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## Decus (Feb 20, 2014)

tinydancer said:


> Decus said:
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> > Ukranians are sick of the corruption and protesting for something better. The government wants to hold on to power and are willing to go to any length to do so:
> ...



We had that with Kent State many years ago. Was the National Guard right to have shot those students? Many people believe to this day that it was a tragic error of judgement.


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## occupied (Feb 20, 2014)

tinydancer said:


> g5000 said:
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> > While the Ukraine is not technically a part of Russia, Russia has identified the Ukraine as being a part of Russia for centuries.  Russia is not going to let their breadbasket go easily.
> ...



The president of Ukraine could defuse this situation pretty easily by simply throwing off the Russian  puppet strings and resigning but of course he will sit there while this mess turns into civil war.


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## g5000 (Feb 20, 2014)

I suppose if the North Korean people got tired of being oppressed and erupted into "massively violent protests", tinydancer _et al._ would be writing emails asking why  our government is criticizing the North Korean leader, and wondering aloud if we would put up with that kind of behavior here.


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## tinydancer (Feb 20, 2014)

g5000 said:


> Katzndogz said:
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> > If you support the protesters, would you support rioting protester is they were in the US protesting against obama's policies?  Or, would you say "He was elected get over it"?
> ...



Piss off with the Putin red herring. It's bullshit.


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## pvsi (Feb 20, 2014)

g5000 said:


> tinydancer said:
> 
> 
> > At Least 22 Dead as Truce Collapses in Ukraine
> ...


Snipers shooting at protesters do not mean police snipers.


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## DennyO (Feb 20, 2014)

g5000 said:


> I suppose if the North Korean people got tired of being oppressed and erupted into "massively violent protests", tinydancer _et al._ would be writing emails asking why  our government is criticizing the North Korean leader, and wondering aloud if we would put up with that kind of behavior here.



Not at all the same.  The Ukrainian president was elected.  He is also a sane person.


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## tinydancer (Feb 20, 2014)

occupied said:


> tinydancer said:
> 
> 
> > g5000 said:
> ...



This government in the Ukraine is a duly elected government. Just because some people prefer to join the EU, does not give them the right to mount a violent protest to overthrow the government.

Think the USA. Tea Party groups camp out on Capitol Hill and begin getting violent over the budget. 

They kill police and capture police. Should Obama resign? Hell no!

Take Canada. Environmental protestors take over Parliament Hill and begin getting violent over the Northern Gateway pipeline. 

The kill police and capture police. Should my Prime Minister Harper resign? 

HELL NO. And neither should the Ukrainian President. 

If citizens decide that they wish to act violently and break all the laws of the land, the leader of that country has the moral duty to put down the insurrection. 

Next up. Another election, The proper way to protest is always at the ballot box.


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## Katzndogz (Feb 20, 2014)

If it was the tea party protesting in New York would the American left have any problem whatsoever with the military putting such an insurrection down?

The president acted in the best interests of the Ukranian people by negotiating a favorable trade agreement and securing 15 billion dollars in loans.  That there are some Ukranians that don't like it only means that next time they should try winning the election.


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## occupied (Feb 20, 2014)

DennyO said:


> g5000 said:
> 
> 
> > I suppose if the North Korean people got tired of being oppressed and erupted into "massively violent protests", tinydancer _et al._ would be writing emails asking why  our government is criticizing the North Korean leader, and wondering aloud if we would put up with that kind of behavior here.
> ...



That remains to be seen, if he refuses to make concessions and loses control of his country he's a megalomaniac. A government must be responsive to it's citizens, in this case it is a Russian speaking asshole, backed up by Russia against native speaking Ukrainians, to them he is an occupation puppet of Russia and not really legitimate.


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## NightFox (Feb 20, 2014)

occupied said:


> The conservatives on this board need to take a good look at what tyranny actually looks like and consider that they seem like spoiled infants when they talk of horrible tyranny like taxes and social programs here.



What a ringing endorsement for statism, you can have;

option a.) State thugs butchering it's own citizenry in the streets 
-OR- 
behind curtain B we have ) theft, forced redistribution and propagandist programming 

*Statism the freedom to choose your favorite flavors of exploitation and oppression.... *

"_Many now believe that with the rise of the totalitarian State the world has entered upon a new era of barbarism. It has not. The totalitarian State is only the State; the kind of thing it does is only what the State has always done with unfailing regularity, if it had the power to do it, wherever and whenever its own aggrandizement made that kind of thing expedient. Give any State like power hereafter, and put it in like circumstances, and it will do precisely the same kind of thing. The State will unfailingly aggrandize itself, if only it has the power, first at the expense of its own citizens, and then at the expense of anyone else in sight. It has always done so, and always will._" --- *Albert Jay Nock*


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## whitehall (Feb 20, 2014)

Where is the Secretary of State? Is John Kerry really more interested in global warming than terrorism?


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## occupied (Feb 20, 2014)

Katzndogz said:


> If it was the tea party protesting in New York would the American left have any problem whatsoever with the military putting such an insurrection down?
> 
> The president acted in the best interests of the Ukranian people by negotiating a favorable trade agreement and securing 15 billion dollars in loans.  That there are some Ukranians that don't like it only means that next time they should try winning the election.



Get a decent grasp of the situation and then come back.


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## tinydancer (Feb 20, 2014)

What should happen is a truce. But the protestors broke the truce and stormed the police and captured 67 policemen.  

But the ideal solution is a truce and a country wide referendum on joining or not joining the EU to be held as soon as possible.


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## Katzndogz (Feb 20, 2014)

occupied said:


> Katzndogz said:
> 
> 
> > If it was the tea party protesting in New York would the American left have any problem whatsoever with the military putting such an insurrection down?
> ...



That IS the situation.  You just don't like it.


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## tinydancer (Feb 20, 2014)

occupied said:


> Katzndogz said:
> 
> 
> > If it was the tea party protesting in New York would the American left have any problem whatsoever with the military putting such an insurrection down?
> ...



Many people believed the "protests" in Syria were "pro democracy" until it was discovered that the so called rebels were paid mercenaries and AQ was taking over.

I'm not saying it's the same situation in the Ukraine but this is an armed insurrection that must be quelled.

The ballot box with a referendum is the way to settle this.


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## occupied (Feb 20, 2014)

Katzndogz said:


> occupied said:
> 
> 
> > Katzndogz said:
> ...



What you are missing is that the country is controlled by what is essentially an immigrant population of native Russians and they are throwing their weight around and treating the native Ukrainians like second-class citizens. It was primed for civil unrest like no other European country and the president deliberately went ahead and lit the fuse. The Ukrainians know what it means to be subjects of Russian rule and they are pretty damned sick of it by now.


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## Decus (Feb 20, 2014)

The protestors are largely fed up with the corruption and not driven by a burning desire to join the EU.

_"Transparency International reported on rampant growth of corruption and emergence of "The Family," a new clan of presidential loyalists from Yanukovych's home region headed by his eldest son Oleksandr who, although a dentist by profession, entered the list of the Top 50 wealthiest people in Ukraine. In the former U.S.S.R., only four Central Asian countries had worse levels of corruption than Ukraine, TI said, while the Heritage Foundation ranked Ukraine with the least economic freedom in Europe."_

_"The image of Yanukovych and his administration dramatically changed to violent kleptocrat after a tally of seven dead (including an Armenian and Belarusian), 2,000 protesters wounded, 136 journalists attacked, 30 protesters kidnapped and 120 detained."_

_"(Taras Kuzio is a research associate at the Center for Political and Regional Studies, Canadian Institute of Ukrainian Studies, University of Alberta.)"_

Viktor Yanukovych: From partner to violent kleptocrat - UPI.com
.


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## emilynghiem (Feb 20, 2014)

occupied said:


> Decus said:
> 
> 
> > Ukranians are sick of the corruption and protesting for something better. The government wants to hold on to power and are willing to go to any length to do so:
> ...



On the contrary: the conservatives say it's the liberals who need to take a good look at what happens in other countries when you let govt run amok without checks and balances.

the conservatives complain all the time about the "liberal agenda" of politicians keeping people dependent as a bunch of whining victims on welfare, when people in other countries don't make 50 cents a day, and here people protest about not making 15.00 an hour at lower paying jobs that can't be supported at that rate.

we gripe about benefits, when people in other countries would LOVE to be paid NOT to work. what a concept.

yet we fight over extending benefits and wanting govt to make companies pay for this that and the other. wah wah wah. why not build your own company, and try creating jobs for yourself and others? some people don't even have that freedom or ability or access like we do in this country.

yet people whine over here, waiting for GOVT to create jobs and MAKE companies pay better benefits. totally backwards from how our system was designed to REWARD citizens and states with freedom to create and manage our own economy under limited govt.


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## tinydancer (Feb 20, 2014)

occupied said:


> Katzndogz said:
> 
> 
> > occupied said:
> ...



Less than 15%. Give me a break. And bottom line the ELECTED government took the sweeter deal. Russia's offers over the EU made the day. 

*  Moments ago, the fight over Ukraine ended. Russia won, and not only pledged $15 billion in future Ukraine investments, but de facto became the lender of last resort for the troubled nation.

    PUTIN SAYS RUSSIA-UKRAINE TALKS IN MOSCOW WERE CONSTRUCTIVE

    PUTIN SAYS GAZPROM TO SELL GAS TO UKRAINE AT $268.50

    PUTIN SAYS UKRAINE BENEFITING FROM DISCOUNT ON RUSSIAN GAS

    PUTIN: RUSSIA TO USE SOVEREIGN WEALTH FUND TO INVEST IN UKRAINE

    PUTIN SAYS RUSSIA TO INVEST $15B IN UKRAINIAN SECURITIES

    PUTIN SAYS UKRAINE'S MEMBERSHIP IN CUSTOMS UNION NOT DISCUSSED

    SILUANOV SAYS UKRAINE TO SELL $15B BONDS TO RUSSIA IN 2013-14

Europe, like a jilted lover, was sad but understood it had been bested. 

    GERMANYS STEINMEIER: EUS OVERTURE TO UKRAINE FELL SHORT
    STEINMEIER: EU MAY HAVE UNDERESTIMATED RUSSIA DETERMINATION
*

Europe Officially Loses Fight For Ukraine, Russia Wins | Zero Hedge


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## francoHFW (Feb 20, 2014)

OP- Possibly because he's a dictator who rigs all his elections period. And yes the networks have footage of POLICE snipers just plain killing people. They're dying for real elections...


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## tinydancer (Feb 20, 2014)

Decus said:


> The protestors are largely fed up with the corruption and not driven by a burning desire to join the EU.
> 
> _"Transparency International reported on rampant growth of corruption and emergence of "The Family," a new clan of presidential loyalists from Yanukovych's home region headed by his eldest son Oleksandr who, although a dentist by profession, entered the list of the Top 50 wealthiest people in Ukraine. In the former U.S.S.R., only four Central Asian countries had worse levels of corruption than Ukraine, TI said, while the Heritage Foundation ranked Ukraine with the least economic freedom in Europe."_
> 
> ...



I know who he is. 

He has his opinion. I disagree.


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## tinydancer (Feb 20, 2014)

francoHFW said:


> OP- Possibly because he's a dictator who rigs all his elections period. And yes the networks have footage of POLICE snipers just plain killing people. They're dying for real elections...



To my topic in the OP, would or should Obama or Harper allow violent protests on Capitol Hill or Parliament Hill?

They are criticizing the elected government of the Ukraine for responding to an insurrection.

 These protestors have started fires, have been bombarding security with molotov cocktails, shooting at them, killing them and kidnapping them.

Seriously, would Obama allow protests like this on Capitol Hill or in front of the White House?

Would Prime Minister Harper allow the RCMP to be firebombed, killed and captured?

That is the question I am asking.

 Oh and by the way in both our countries we have citizens who believe both Obama and Harper act like dictators and rig elections so your post regarding your opinion of the Ukrainian Prime Minister really doesn't mean jack shit in the greater comparison.


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## whitehall (Feb 20, 2014)

Do they make golf balls in the Ukraine? Otherwise Barry ain't interested.


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## Katzndogz (Feb 20, 2014)

They had a referendum in 2008.  Only 12% supported the EU.


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## Decus (Feb 20, 2014)

tinydancer said:


> Decus said:
> 
> 
> > The protestors are largely fed up with the corruption and not driven by a burning desire to join the EU.
> ...



The article cites several independent institutions that have come to the conclusion that Yanukovych is corrupt. Are institutions like *Transparency International* also wrong? Please know that I'm not trying to pick a fight but just trying to understand.

_"At least 18 Party of Regions deputies have criminal ties, according to Hennadiy Moskal, *deputy head of Parliament's Committee on Organized Crime and Corruption*."_

_"*The Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe, Council of Europe and Western governments* criticized the *November 2012* parliamentary elections as not meeting democratic standards."_

_"This was reinforced by images of Automobile-Maydan leader Dmytro Bulatov who had been kidnapped and tortured in what *Amnesty International *described as a "barbaric act.""_

Viktor Yanukovych: From partner to violent kleptocrat - UPI.com


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## 1776 (Feb 20, 2014)

The Ukraine president is a Putin puppet, he was bought off to align with Russia and not the EU going against the wishes of the Ukrainians. So he has been trying to stop the protests against his Russia policies like a typical left-wing dictator does.

The deaths of the police are not good...but who says the Russians aren't involved??? Why not plant some Russian goons in the crowd to start a riot/disaster in the Ukraine.....giving Putin a reason to invade Ukraine like he did in Georgia.....


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## Old Rocks (Feb 20, 2014)

The whole of the wingnuts stance on the Ukraine is that the President supports the Ukranian people, so our goose stepping wingnuts feel the need to support a corrupt dicatorship. Idiots acting and speaking truly idiotically.


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## Katzndogz (Feb 20, 2014)

They elected a wingnut president!  The elections in the Ukraine has nothing to do with us.  

It would be too amusing for obama to invade the Ukraine on behalf of the Ukranian people.  He is stupid, but not that stupid.   Democrats might want to declare war on Russia over this, and they would deserve absolutely everything that came from it.

obama is gesturing.  He has no power.  There is nothing he can do.   So, twist in the wind, fart in tornados, piss in the ocean thinking it will raise the water level.   There is no doubt that President Putin is laughing his ass off at obama and his useless talk of "consequences" as if there would really be any consequences.


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## Katzndogz (Feb 20, 2014)

The American people elected a puppet of Iranian mullahs.  Should we also take to the streets over it?


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## occupied (Feb 20, 2014)

Old Rocks said:


> The whole of the wingnuts stance on the Ukraine is that the President supports the Ukranian people, so our goose stepping wingnuts feel the need to support a corrupt dicatorship. Idiots acting and speaking truly idiotically.



Usually they just make me aggravated but today I am truly ashamed of them. How can my own countrymen be so politically bent that they just side with a corrupt autocrat using force to put down legitimate protests against his coldly self-serving actions? It makes all their words about freedom and liberty seem hollow when they see a government's police  force being directed at citizens and they say "serves them right for standing up rather than knuckling under as they should". They have no understanding of what real courage means when they would apparently just put up with horrible corruption because it's easier than fighting it. 

Our English colonial government was pretty sure of it's power and legitimacy when our founders stood up and built the nation that should have been rather than one that respected authority for authority's sake.


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## occupied (Feb 20, 2014)

Katzndogz said:


> The American people elected a puppet of Iranian mullahs.  Should we also take to the streets over it?



If you feel that strongly about it then go for it, it is the right of every human to rebel against tyranny, history will judge if your sacrifice was worth it. Not willing to put your life or freedom on the line? Then it must not be that bad then. Those people in Ukraine feel it is worth their lives to fight, how can you judge them when you would not do the same in their place?


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## LoneLaugher (Feb 20, 2014)

Weeeeeeeeee! Nutters supporting iron fist dictators! Just another day.


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## blackhawk (Feb 20, 2014)

President Obama has said if the protesters or the government crosses the line there will be serious consequences so no worries.


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## Political Junky (Feb 20, 2014)

John McCain Went To Ukraine And Stood On Stage With A Man Accused Of Being An Anti-Semitic Neo-Nazi

Read more: John McCain Meets Oleh Tyahnybok In Ukraine - Business Insider

http://www.google.com/search?client...eets+with+far+right+in+kiev&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8





Nowadays Svoboda (which means freedom in Ukrainian) is one of those reconstructed modern European far right parties &#8212; it is aligned with the British National Party and the French National Front, for example &#8212; and it has gained some kind of electoral legitimacy, winning 10 percent of the seats in Ukraine's parliament in 2010.

However, t*he party's past is seriously murky. When it was founded in 1995, the party called itself the Social-National Party of Ukraine (SNPU), and it had a swastika-like logo*. While it eventually split from its more right wing members, the party remained focused on celebrating Ukrainian ethnic identity in opposition to Russia and Communism.


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## O.R.I.O.N (Feb 20, 2014)

So what?


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## Avatar4321 (Feb 20, 2014)

gipper said:


> How long before the stinking American interventionists demand the USA send troops?
> 
> CRAZY!



After the Russians do?


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## Avatar4321 (Feb 20, 2014)

JakeStarkey said:


> Yup, align with West or align with Russia.
> 
> No middle way and violence is the order of the day.



There is always a middle way.


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## Avatar4321 (Feb 20, 2014)

occupied said:


> Decus said:
> 
> 
> > Ukranians are sick of the corruption and protesting for something better. The government wants to hold on to power and are willing to go to any length to do so:
> ...



We know what tyranny looks like. We rebelled against Great Britain for less.


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## blackhawk (Feb 20, 2014)

occupied said:


> Decus said:
> 
> 
> > Ukranians are sick of the corruption and protesting for something better. The government wants to hold on to power and are willing to go to any length to do so:
> ...



The liberals on this board should do the same thing when they tell us what a outrage it is having to showing a photo I.D. to vote.


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## jon_berzerk (Feb 21, 2014)

occupied said:


> Decus said:
> 
> 
> > Ukranians are sick of the corruption and protesting for something better. The government wants to hold on to power and are willing to go to any length to do so:
> ...



tyranny comes in baby steps 

recently the FCC is proposed to sit in news stations 

to "monitor" what news they find relevant to publish 

the government without a warrant decides it is okay 

to search and seize your communications in all forms 

the government mandates what you have to buy 

from private industry or face penalties


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## bendog (Feb 21, 2014)

I don't see the Ukraine wanting to align with the US so much as the majority from the last natl election preferred to pledge their economic troth with the EU and open markets.


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## Dante (Feb 21, 2014)

gipper said:


> How long before the stinking American interventionists demand the USA send troops?
> 
> CRAZY!



go away.

no one is saying that (no one of any consequence) and peace will prevail


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## Dante (Feb 21, 2014)

namvet said:


> who cares ??[/quote [MENTION=10942]namvet[/MENTION]
> 
> when I was younger people said that about Vietnam


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## Camp (Feb 21, 2014)

There is a bar very close to the Maiden on Khresghatic Str., an Irish Pub believe it or not. They have great rock bands and you can smoke Cuban cigars as you slam down shots of absinthe. It is close enough to the center of the protest that I am concerned about it. Hope it will still be there when I return for a visit to Kiev.


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