# A Reasonable measure to cut the number killed in mass shootings that wouldn't take guns away from anyone.



## Dayton3 (May 29, 2022)

Dayton3_Well-Known Member_​Joined:May 3, 2009Messages:22,091Likes Received:5,740Trophy Points:113Gender:Male


> I read an opinion piece in this Sundays paper. It said that the muzzle velocity of a bullet from an AR-15 was three times that from a 9mm handgun.
> 
> https://smhs.gwu.edu/icu/sites/icu/files/Ballistics.pdf
> 
> ...


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## Seymour Flops (May 29, 2022)

What you linked to was not an opinion piece.  It looks like it may have come from a criminal justice textbook, or something like that.  I didn't read every word, but I am pretty sure that article did not recommend the low-propellant rounds.

Does that article you posted recommend these low-power AR15 bullets that you speak of, or is that in the op-ed that you did not link?

The AR 15 is a gas-operated rifle, which means the expanding gases from the fired round are partially diverted to push the bolt back to eject the spent shell and chamber then next round.  This vid explains it better than I can:


Reducing the propellant would prevent the gases from pushing the bolt far enough back, resulting in a jam, or else making the AR a single-shot rifle.

I think the writer of that Op Ed should have consulted a person who knows something about firearms.  The same round has greater velocity if fired from a pistol caliber carbine (relatively short rifle) than if fired from a pistol.  So the AR 15 round would have to have significantly less propellant than a 9mm round to get the same velocity.


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## mudwhistle (May 29, 2022)




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## 2aguy (May 29, 2022)

Dayton3 said:


> Dayton3_Well-Known Member_​Joined:May 3, 2009Messages:22,091Likes Received:5,740Trophy Points:113Gender:Male




Moron……the killer was locked in a classroom that was likely 40 X40 feet or less….the gun did not matter when he had complete control over defenseless children…the rifle had absolutely no advantage over a pistol or shotgun.

Had the door simply been locked…since it was already supposed to be locked…those kids likely would have been alive.


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## Batcat (May 29, 2022)

Seymour Flops said:


> What you linked to was not an opinion piece.  It looks like it may have come from a criminal justice textbook, or something like that.  I didn't read every word, but I am pretty sure that article did not recommend the low-propellant rounds.
> 
> Does that article you posted recommend these low-power AR15 bullets that you speak of, or is that in the op-ed that you did not link?
> 
> ...


If I want a single shot rifle I can buy one. If I had an AR-15 and the only ammo I could buy would be so underpowered it would cause the weapon to malfunction, I would hand load my own ammo.


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## Seymour Flops (May 29, 2022)

Batcat said:


> If I want a single shot rifle I can buy one. If I had an AR-15 and the only ammo I could buy would be so underpowered it would cause the weapon to malfunction, I would hand load my own ammo.


Of course.  For every firearm or ammunition restriction that liberals pass based on their own ignorance of firearms and ammunition, there is an unintended corollary which is that Americans will improvise, adapt and overcome that restriction.


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## Dekster (May 29, 2022)

2aguy said:


> Moron……the killer was locked in a classroom that was likely 40 X40 feet or less….the gun did not matter when he had complete control over defenseless children…the rifle had absolutely no advantage over a pistol or shotgun.
> 
> *Had the door simply been locked…since it was already supposed to be locked…those kids likely would have been alive.*



TBH probably not.  If you google an image of the school, you will see that the entrance is two sets of glass double doors with a glass panel along the sides and a simple traditional push bar on each of the 4 doors.  It wouldn't have taken a homicidal person much effort or delay in penetrating into the school either way.  It is true of many schools, especially the ones in my area.  Fire codes have doors that will always open from the inside and school doors usually have a lot of glass in them so that you can see if someone is on the other side when opening.


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## Seymour Flops (May 29, 2022)

Dekster said:


> TBH probably not.  If you google an image of the school, you will see that the entrance is two sets of glass double doors with a glass panel along the sides and a simple traditional push bar on each of the 4 doors.  It wouldn't have taken a homicidal person much effort or delay in penetrating into the school either way.  It is true of many schools, especially the ones in my area.  Fire codes have doors that will always open from the inside and school doors usually have a lot of glass in them so that you can see if someone is on the other side when opening.


Yes, he already shot at the building while he was outside.  If the door had been locked, he would have shot out  a glass panel and reached into pull the door open.


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## 2aguy (May 29, 2022)

Seymour Flops said:


> Yes, he already shot at the building while he was outside.  If the door had been locked, he would have shot out  a glass panel and reached into pull the door open.



Not the classroom doors….the teachers in those two classrooms didn’t lock there doors on the lockdown order…


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## Seymour Flops (May 29, 2022)

2aguy said:


> Not the classroom doors….the teachers in those two classrooms didn’t lock there doors on the lockdown order…


Oh, I see what you mean.  

Yes, if the classroom doors are locked, the shooter would have likely looked for a way to find some kids, and that extra few minutes would have given police time to get in and kill or capture him.  Unless they were standing around with their thumbs up their butts, in which case the extra time might not have mattered.


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## 2aguy (May 29, 2022)

Seymour Flops said:


> Oh, I see what you mean.
> 
> Yes, if the classroom doors are locked, the shooter would have likely looked for a way to find some kids, and that extra few minutes would have given police time to get in and kill or capture him.  Unless they were standing around with their thumbs up their butts, in which case the extra time might not have mattered.



Yep, the classroom doors would have been harder to get through, even with the rifle.......had he been in the hallway he wouldn't have been killing children trapped in a classroom with him...


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## Batcat (May 30, 2022)

Seymour Flops said:


> Of course.  For every firearm or ammunition restriction that liberals pass based on their own ignorance of firearms and ammunition, there is an unintended corollary which is that Americans will improvise, adapt and overcome that restriction.


Reloading ammo is easy and can save a lot of money. When i was target shooting handguns I used to reload about 6000 rounds a year.


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## there4eyeM (May 30, 2022)

Another thing that could be done to protect firearms fanatics would be to limit how many people could gather together in one place. A limit of three would be best. That way, mass shootings would be rare, and fewer bullets necessary.


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## Dekster (May 30, 2022)

Seymour Flops said:


> Yes, he already shot at the building while he was outside.  If the door had been locked, he would have shot out  a glass panel and reached into pull the door open.



It is part of the tension in how do we better fortify schools when they are session--fire/building codes vs. active shooters.


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## 2aguy (May 30, 2022)

there4eyeM said:


> Another thing that could be done to protect firearms fanatics would be to limit how many people could gather together in one place. A limit of three would be best. That way, mass shootings would be rare, and fewer bullets necessary.




Yep....make any public gathering, in stores, malls, theaters, churches, over 2 people a felony, and punishable by 20 years in prison......unless it is a blm/antifa rally......they should be allowed to burn, loot and kill in whatever numbers they want...


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## Seymour Flops (May 30, 2022)

Dekster said:


> It is part of the tension in how do we better fortify schools when they are session--fire/building codes vs. active shooters.


I hear you. Preventing children from being killed in school fires is one of the few things that government has been highly successful at, and I don't want to mess that up.  That's why I favor a barrier around the school instead of waiting until the intruder is at the door, and blocking him in ways that might lead to trapped children in a fire.

I think some people have a hard time accepting that a patrolled fence is the best way to keep kids safe, because that are caught up in the whole, "barriers don't work, fences are racist, build bridges, not walls" vibe.  Sorry, but when an armed maniac approaches a school, he needs to be stopped with a wall, not welcomed with a bridge.


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## Canon Shooter (May 30, 2022)

Dayton3 said:


> Dayton3_Well-Known Member_​Joined:May 3, 2009Messages:22,091Likes Received:5,740Trophy Points:113Gender:Male



Many people I know do their own reloading..


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## there4eyeM (May 31, 2022)

"Good guys with guns" should patrol around schools. They could pretend to be a militia or something.


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## M14 Shooter (May 31, 2022)

Dayton3 said:


> Joined:May 3, 2009Messages:22,091Likes Received:5,740Trophy Points:113Gender:Male


What is "AR15 ammunition"?


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## Rigby5 (Jun 3, 2022)

Dayton3 said:


> Dayton3_Well-Known Member_​Joined:May 3, 2009Messages:22,091Likes Received:5,740Trophy Points:113Gender:Male



Sorry, but that is really, really naive.
First of all, an AR is built for the bullets that exist, so will not function on weaker bullets.
Second is that the AR is already about the weakest rifle made, and is so weak that it can not legally be used for hunting deer in many states.
Making it even weaker would render it useless completely.
Third is that lots of people reload their own bullets to save money, so these weak would be pointless.


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## Dayton3 (Jun 3, 2022)

Rigby5 said:


> Sorry, but that is really, really naive.
> First of all, an AR is built for the bullets that exist, so will not function on weaker bullets.
> Second is that the AR is already about the weakest rifle made, and is so weak that it can not legally be used for hunting deer in many states.
> Making it even weaker would render it useless completely.
> Third is that lots of people reload their own bullets to save money, so these weak would be pointless.


1) These things were already posted up thread
2) I conceded it was a foolish idea.
3) So get the hell off my damned back.


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## Rigby5 (Jun 4, 2022)

Dayton3 said:


> 1) These things were already posted up thread
> 2) I conceded it was a foolish idea.
> 3) So get the hell off my damned back.



Sorry.  I did not read very many of the posts.
I usually read the first one, reply, and then start reading the latest ones.
But if they wanted to reduce the killing, the first thing they could do is stop selling hollow point pistol bullets.
It would cut the death rate from pistols by about two thirds, and almost all firearm deaths are with pistols.


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## Esdraelon (Oct 6, 2022)

Dayton3 said:


> Dayton3_Well-Known Member_​Joined:May 3, 2009Messages:22,091Likes Received:5,740Trophy Points:113Gender:Male


*"It seems like a reasonable step to me"*

That's nice.  All we have to do is make the weapon less effective.  I guess that'd be for the "greater good"?  IMO, 2A was designed for the greater good.  Over the past few years we've seen some on the Left who've slipped up and admitted their ultimate goal and it is just as we assumed.  Remove ALL firearms from anyone who isn't a soldier or a cop.  Hundreds of thousands of us would die before bending over for ya on 2A.  

Consider 2A to be a red line that will cost you more to cross than it's worth...


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## 2aguy (Oct 8, 2022)

Dayton3 said:


> Dayton3_Well-Known Member_​Joined:May 3, 2009Messages:22,091Likes Received:5,740Trophy Points:113Gender:Male



The rifle, bullets and magazine make no difference at the ranges of mass public shootings.  The thing that matters is how long it takes before someone starts shooting back at the attacker.


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## Batcat (Oct 8, 2022)

2aguy said:


> The rifle, bullets and magazine make no difference at the ranges of mass public shootings.  The thing that matters is how long it takes before someone starts shooting back at the attacker.


While I basically agree with you, I will point out a single shot .22 LR bolt action rifle would be a poor choice for most mass murders In public places.


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## 2aguy (Oct 8, 2022)

Batcat said:


> While I basically agree with you, I will point out a single shot .22 LR bolt action rifle would be a poor choice for most mass murders In public places.




Poor choice but effective........

In Britain....


Weapons
Sawn-off[2][3] George Fisher 12 gauge double-barreled shotgun[4]
CZ 452-2E ZKM .22-calibrebolt-action rifle[5]
Deaths13 (including the perpetrator)[6]









						Cumbria shootings - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org


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## Batcat (Oct 8, 2022)

2aguy said:


> Poor choice but effective........
> 
> In Britain....
> 
> ...


I mentioned a single shot bolt action .22 LR rifle. The CZ 452-2e ZKM has a five round magazine. 

On the rifle I mentioned you pull the bolt back to eject a round and then load  the next round by hand. On the Cz 452 pulling the bolt back ejects a round and pushing it forward loads a new round from the magazine. Much faster. 

A 12 gauge double-barreled shotgun will reload quickly and is an absolutely devastating weapon at close range.


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## Dayton3 (Oct 8, 2022)

IIRC with practice and good planning, a single-shot weapon can fire up to six rounds a minute.


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## Blues Man (Oct 8, 2022)

Dayton3 said:


> Dayton3_Well-Known Member_​Joined:May 3, 2009Messages:22,091Likes Received:5,740Trophy Points:113Gender:Male


Another  opinion that equates suicides with murder.

Suicide is not a crime
Suicide is a choice that every person has the absolute right to make.


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## Dayton3 (Oct 8, 2022)

Blues Man said:


> Another  opinion that equates suicides with murder.
> 
> Suicide is not a crime
> Suicide is a choice that every person has the absolute right to make.


Suicide is illegal in the United States.

Thus it is a crime.


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## Batcat (Oct 8, 2022)

Dayton3 said:


> IIRC with practice and good planning, a single-shot weapon can fire up to six rounds a minute.


In the 10 seconds it takes to reload the shooter can be rushed and disarmed (assuming he is at close range, for example in a class room).


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## Dayton3 (Oct 8, 2022)

Batcat said:


> In the 10 seconds it takes to reload the shooter can be rushed and disarmed (assuming he is at close range, for example in a class room).



Yes if people have the mentality to do that which is not a given in such a situation.


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## Batcat (Oct 8, 2022)

Dayton3 said:


> Yes if people have the mentality to do that which is not a given in such a situation.


Perhaps we should start training people while they are in school how to survive If caught in an attack involving a shooter.


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## Correll (Oct 8, 2022)

Seems to me a reasonable measure would be to lock up dangerously crazy people.


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## Batcat (Oct 8, 2022)

Correll said:


> Seems to me a reasonable measure would be to lock up dangerously crazy people.


Many elected democrat prosecutors do not seem to be in flavor of doing reasonable stuff like that. 









						These Radical Democrat Prosecutors Are Breaking Their Oaths to Prosecute Criminals - AMAC - The Association of Mature American Citizens
					

From San Francisco to Philadelphia, from Chicago to Portland, radical progressive prosecutors have been taking the law into their own hands,




					www.amac.us
				












						Oregon State Police pull out of Portland after prosecutors refuse to prosecute Antifa criminals
					

Portland and some of the surrounding suburbs are war zones. The "woke" Democrat-filled government of the city and state have




					noqreport.com
				












						This Democrat Criminal Prosecution System is Deeply Immoral
					

One certain sign that a country has gone off the rails is when the governing power systematically imposes a criminal prosecution that is prepared to change laws and conditions to favor the criminals over law-abiding citizens and create an atmosphere ...




					www.americanthinker.com


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## Blues Man (Oct 9, 2022)

Dayton3 said:


> Suicide is illegal in the United States.
> 
> Thus it is a crime.


No it isn't









						Suicide
					






					www.law.cornell.edu
				




*Suicide is no longer considered a crime in the United States*


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