# Liberal Colleges and Universities - Why and How Did They Get That Way?



## George Costanza (Aug 22, 2010)

A common cry of many conservatives is that, in general, our institutions of higher learning in this country (colleges, universities, etc.) are "liberal."  They teach "liberal concepts," they cater to liberals, all of the professors are liberals, and so forth.  Let's assume, for sake of argument, that this is correct - that our colleges and universities are, for the most part, liberal.

What is it about our colleges and universities that makes them liberal, in your opinion and why do you think they became so, as opposed to leaning more toward conservative thought?


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## ConHog (Aug 22, 2010)

Simple. those who can do, those who can't teach. Liberals can't , so they teach.


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## HUGGY (Aug 22, 2010)

George Costanza said:


> A common cry of many conservatives is that, in general, our institutions of higher learning in this country (colleges, universities, etc.) are "liberal."  They teach "liberal concepts," they cater to liberals, all of the professors are liberals, and so forth.  Let's assume, for sake of argument, that this is correct - that our colleges and universities are, for the most part, liberal.
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> What is it about our colleges and universities that makes them liberal, in your opinion and why do you think they became so, as opposed to leaning more toward conservative thought?



It's simple really.  Credible colleges all teach science.  Many conservatives belief systems don't allow for real scientific facts and accepted theories.  That excludes most of the religious fundamentalists by their own choice.  Also to expand on the religious theme... History and archeology defies much of the religious dogma and flies in the face of those that choose the bible and other religious doctrine as their historical guide.


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## ConHog (Aug 22, 2010)

HUGGY said:


> George Costanza said:
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> > A common cry of many conservatives is that, in general, our institutions of higher learning in this country (colleges, universities, etc.) are "liberal."  They teach "liberal concepts," they cater to liberals, all of the professors are liberals, and so forth.  Let's assume, for sake of argument, that this is correct - that our colleges and universities are, for the most part, liberal.
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Yes, absolutely, us Christians we hate that damned Math, and everyone knows that only 6% of scientists are conservative any how.


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## George Costanza (Aug 22, 2010)

HUGGY said:


> George Costanza said:
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> > A common cry of many conservatives is that, in general, our institutions of higher learning in this country (colleges, universities, etc.) are "liberal."  They teach "liberal concepts," they cater to liberals, all of the professors are liberals, and so forth.  Let's assume, for sake of argument, that this is correct - that our colleges and universities are, for the most part, liberal.
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Excellent answer.  Thank you.


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## ConHog (Aug 22, 2010)

George why are you being a coward and not answering me?


[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yK543f0_UKc[/ame]


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## Quantum Windbag (Aug 22, 2010)

HUGGY said:


> George Costanza said:
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> > A common cry of many conservatives is that, in general, our institutions of higher learning in this country (colleges, universities, etc.) are "liberal."  They teach "liberal concepts," they cater to liberals, all of the professors are liberals, and so forth.  Let's assume, for sake of argument, that this is correct - that our colleges and universities are, for the most part, liberal.
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Oh boy, another idiot who thinks liberals are automatically smarter than conservatives because they can conveniently ignore the fact that liberals are just as likely to call themselves Christians, or by another religious tag, as conservatives. Then they jump to the ridiculous conclusion that because conservatives are Christian that they believe the Earth is 5000 years old. and are thus totally ignorant about science.

Believe it or not, more conservatives have a solid grounding in science than liberals. Most liberals tend to specialize in social sciences or art, which means that their understanding of science stops somewhere in grade school. Conservatives tend to go into engineering, mathematics, and business, which means they have to deal with the real world. That means that even if they are brought up to believe that magic is what makes cars work, they are forced to learn that physics makes the world go round.

Would you like me to list all the Christian colleges in the US that have a better reputation for teaching science than any liberal arts college you can find? Or would the simple name of Harvard blow your little world apart?

Maybe you should stop using rdean as your source of arguments about science and politics.


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## California Girl (Aug 22, 2010)

George Costanza said:


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And therein lies the reason why there is no debate. The 'excellent answer' is the one that fits your own political view. You take as fact anything you agree with, and refuse to consider view that contradicts it. 

That is why I say the left are incapable of individual thought. You're so fucking borg-like in your thought process - and that is what is wrong with our colleges. They don't teach kids how to think, they teach them what to think. And, I suspect, you don't even recognize the difference. Moron.


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## DiveCon (Aug 22, 2010)

George Costanza said:


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how fucking ignorant of you'

thats fucking pathetic, george


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## ConHog (Aug 22, 2010)

Quantum Windbag said:


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Excellent answer. Thank you.


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## ConHog (Aug 22, 2010)

DiveCon said:


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George is getting worse and worse. I think his case is terminal.


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## DiveCon (Aug 22, 2010)

Quantum Windbag said:


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YES
please do list them


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## ConHog (Aug 22, 2010)

DiveCon said:


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Best Science Schools - Graduate Schools - Education - US News


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## Quantum Windbag (Aug 22, 2010)

George Costanza said:


> A common cry of many conservatives is that, in general, our institutions of higher learning in this country (colleges, universities, etc.) are "liberal."  They teach "liberal concepts," they cater to liberals, all of the professors are liberals, and so forth.  Let's assume, for sake of argument, that this is correct - that our colleges and universities are, for the most part, liberal.
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> What is it about our colleges and universities that makes them liberal, in your opinion and why do you think they became so, as opposed to leaning more toward conservative thought?



It is a lot simpler than most people think, even if it is something almost everyone overlooks when they discuss this. The Servicemen's Readjustment Act of 1944, otherwise known as the GI Bill, got colleges into the habit of accepting federal money for students, something that was unprecedented at the time. As time went on Congress was called on to expand their involvement in education, and started guaranteeing student loans. Most people hate studying, and wanted to get easier classes so they did not have to work as hard while lazing away in school. Congress also made the remarkable discovery that people who graduate from college were more likely to pay back student loans.

They then started adding conditions for colleges that take federal money, and started suggesting curriculums and Title IX provisions. Since all such social engineering laws tend to be backed by liberals this resulted in a gradual shift in schools from hard sciences to easier, more liberal courses. this was accelerated in the western states where most universities and colleges are publicly funded.

The reason most higher education is perceived as liberal is quite simply because most governments tend to be liberal, and the government controls most schools. The false notion on the idiot fringe of the left that conservatives are anti science and anti education makes no more sense than the assertions from the fringe right that colleges are liberal hotbeds of subversion.

If that was the truth there would be no speech codes on campuses, and no attempts by one group to prevent another group from speaking. Those are the tactics of fascists, not liberals, which indicates to me that our schools are more concerned about turining out robots than people who can think for themselves.


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## ConHog (Aug 22, 2010)

Quantum Windbag said:


> George Costanza said:
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> > A common cry of many conservatives is that, in general, our institutions of higher learning in this country (colleges, universities, etc.) are "liberal."  They teach "liberal concepts," they cater to liberals, all of the professors are liberals, and so forth.  Let's assume, for sake of argument, that this is correct - that our colleges and universities are, for the most part, liberal.
> ...



That's obvious about public colleges. Even back when I was in college professors just expected you to barf out approved answers rather than think. Anyone who has taken any college courses knows this. 

As for the silly notion George has about Christian colleges and science. i earned my first undergrad degree from a small private college and they taught heavily in the science area, even though some of the science seemingly contradicted the religious aspect because they DID want us to think for ourselves.


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## Quantum Windbag (Aug 22, 2010)

DiveCon said:


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Dartmouth
Harvard
Princeton
Yale
Harvard

All of the huge privately funded universities in the east are actually founded as Christian schools, something that blows every liberal away when I point it out.


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## ConHog (Aug 22, 2010)

another george hit and run, im shocked.


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## California Girl (Aug 22, 2010)

Quantum Windbag said:


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Doh! That little fact will drive the 'borg' into meltdown.


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## LuckyDan (Aug 22, 2010)

They got that way man cuz the fuckin baby boomers maaan...decided like....hey fuck this scholarly intellectual whaddy fuckin callit honesty man... screw that! just fuckin burn down the campus man and fuckin like start the fuck over and teach the fuckkin truth man...about Amerika...and yeah cuz fuck all that other shit man about books by dead white guys we aint readin that shit anymore maaaan..


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## rdean (Aug 22, 2010)

Quantum Windbag said:


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The name Harvard came from a Christian Minister in 1636.  That was nearly four hundred years ago.  Read the Harvard Mission Statement and there is nary a mention of "Gawd'.

Mission statement - Harvard University

And I'm just, pardon the word, "mystified", why the right would think they have lots of scientists and "stuff"?

The Republican truth is they have lots of scientists and "big" thinkers.

The truth "truth" is the right has only contempt for education which is exemplified by one of their leaders, Sarah Palin.  The sad thing isn't that Mother Sarah rolled her eyes when the women said she was a "teacher", but the FACT that the right wing has made "teacher" a dirty word and the woman was "ashamed" of being a teacher.  She said, "I have a few other jobs".  Sad and pathetic.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=85wOCIDgu1U&feature=related]YouTube - Sarah Palin - The eyeroll that did not happen - Homer, Alaska, August 7, 2010[/ame]


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## Modbert (Aug 22, 2010)

I go to a college that I suppose would be considered Liberal. In my personal experiences, only one professor talked about anything related to current events and it was to inform students about the goings on in Asia. Makes sense since it was a Non-Western World class focused on Japan and China. 

Though another professor had us go to the local Jewish Community Center to listen to someone speak who lived in Nazi Germany before World War II and how she barely escaped with her family. 

Though this semester, taking Global Competition: The United States and Its Trading Partners. It should be a interesting class.

We have both a Democrat group and Republican group on campus. I'm involved with neither though. Oh, and of course the Socialists. Funny enough, last semester they were walking around the campus with a huge picture of Obama with a Hitler mustache. Turns out they dislike Obama as much as the right on here who think he's a socialist. Though I know some people on USMB do not want to hear that.


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## ConHog (Aug 22, 2010)

Modbert said:


> I go to a college that I* suppose would be considered Liberal.* In my personal experiences, only one professor talked about anything related to current events and it was to inform students about the goings on in Asia. Makes sense since it was a Non-Western World class focused on Japan and China.
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> Though another professor had us go to the local Jewish Community Center to listen to someone speak who lived in Nazi Germany before World War II and how she barely escaped with her family.
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## DiveCon (Aug 22, 2010)

rdean said:


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you just have to keep proving what a fucking IDIOT you are over and over in spite of any facts presented to you, dont ya?


btw, the people doing that video are fucking idiots like you
she didnt roll her eyes at all


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## gautama (Aug 22, 2010)

ConHog said:


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Yep.

PanzaCostanza, the Hollywierdo peripheral bitsy part player representing ugly, bald pudgy/fat morons is on the verge of becoming TruthDoesn'tMatter, RDeanieWeanie, Buggyhuggy etc., i.e. terminal Obamarrhoidal Liebtards.


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## rdean (Aug 22, 2010)

Quantum Windbag said:


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So I go through these colleges.  None of them are in "Alabama" or "South Carolina".
All of them were founded in the late 1600's.
In fact,  the only one that even talks about "Gawd" on their site is Yale, which identifies itself as providing a "liberal" education.

(the following is especially funny coming from Yale history)

About Yale | History

Yale&#8217;s roots can be traced back to the 1640s, when colonial clergymen led an effort to establish a college in New Haven *to preserve the tradition of European liberal education *in the New World.  

(is that a hoot or what?)

Now come on people.  To pretend that conservatives are all into "education" is ludicrous.  Not even you guys can possibly believe that.  The only education conservatives want is business so they can scam people out of their money.

Definitions of conservative:

&#8226;resistant to change 
&#8226;having social or political views favoring conservatism 
&#8226;a person who is reluctant to accept changes and new ideas 
&#8226;button-down: unimaginatively conventional; "a colorful character in the buttoned-down, dull-grey world of business"- Newsweek 
&#8226;a member of a Conservative Party

You can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear.


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## DiveCon (Aug 22, 2010)

rdean said:


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fucking IDIOT


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## rdean (Aug 22, 2010)

DiveCon said:


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Oh my poor little "turd blossom".  Clergy back then are not the conservatives of today.  That was hundreds of years ago.  No, you have to go to "Bob Jones" University to find those of your ilk.  Besides, you don't really believe the earth is billions of years old, do you?


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## syrenn (Aug 22, 2010)

The hippies grew up, had no money and realized they were losers. They got teaching jobs and are now geriatric hippies who teach. 

I know smart mouth answer but that is how i see it. Look at the ages of professor's and you will see their genera. They are for the most part the 60's 70's teens and young adults. Being liberal or conservative does not effect the ability to teach. It does at times slant the style of that teaching.


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## ConHog (Aug 22, 2010)

rdean said:


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You sir, are not very intelligent.

I went to the College of the Ozarks. Hardwork U

College of the Ozarks, Hard Work U.

They bill themselves as a liberal arts college, and yet they are absolutely a conservative  Christian college

Liberal in education terms has NOTHING to do with liberal as a political term.

Liberal arts college - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It must be sad to be so desperate for your "side" to be right about something.


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## DiveCon (Aug 22, 2010)

rdean said:


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and "liberal" back then wasnt "liberal" today
you fucking moron


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## DiveCon (Aug 22, 2010)

ConHog said:


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he's too fucking stupid to understand that


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## rdean (Aug 22, 2010)

ConHog said:


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Good for you.  I applaud your education for what it's worth.

The truth is, the Republican Party, as a whole, does not respect education.  It's true that college professors voted 12 to 1 for Obama and it's also true, according to Pew research, that very few scientists will identify themselves as Republican.  

But is that any surprise?  Take a good hard look at the Republican Party.  At Texas and their attempt to rewrite history, or Dover and their attempt to add "mysticism" to science.  

It's no surprise that education in the sciences has declined as Republicans have gained power.  Republicans have taught their children to disrespect teachers and scientists and worse, education.

When Republicans talk about  "those darned liberal" professors, what would they teach differently?  They have their own Christian colleges.  No "remarkable discoveries" are coming out of those campuses.   Nothing truly innovative or new.

Take evolution away from science and what possible discoveries will be found in biology, botany and physiology?

The right just wants an "imaginary" world where their ideology "becomes" science.  Well, it's not gonna happen.


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## Quantum Windbag (Aug 22, 2010)

rdean said:


> The name Harvard came from a Christian Minister in 1636.  That was nearly four hundred years ago.  Read the Harvard Mission Statement and there is nary a mention of "Gawd'.
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> Mission statement - Harvard University
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The first attempt to prove me wrong from the liberal fringe.

Harvard Divinity School

Look at that, I can actually go to Harvard and graduate with a Th.D., and then go preach the gospel at almost any church in the country. I am pretty sure that would qualify them as a Christian school to most people.

And if I had known you were still harping on that Palin eye roll thing i would have pointed out how the left is, how did you put it, Sherroding her.

1st. The woman who claimed to be a teacher is a lot of things, and a teacher is not one of them. If Palin did roll her eyes here it could possibly be because someone was falsely claiming the honorable job of teacher for herself, when what she really is is a Theater Tech, at least according to the district website. 

2nd. Did you notice the "I also have other jobs," line after the "eye roll?" She sings in a drag queen band, sits on the board of the local family planning clinic, does something for a radio station, and protests a lot. Not to mention the fact that the person behind the video, Shannyn Moore, is known to post outright lies about Palin,

3rd. This was a staged setup from the beginning, and the video was clearly edited to hide the fact.


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## ConHog (Aug 22, 2010)

rdean said:


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This discussion is about liberals and conservatives, not democrats and republicans, so take your sillly little 6% argument somewhere else. 

As for your ridiculous notion that nothing good ever comes out of conservative colleges. Well, that is more than  ridiculous. Anyone with even half an ounce of common sense and honesty would admit that liberal/conservative really doesn't have anything to do with innovation. 

Probably the two greatest scientists in the history of the world were Galilleo and Albert Einstein.  Galileao was a practicing Catholic, Einstein an atheist. Guess that dispels your theory huh?

As for your notion that conservatives have taught their children to misbehave LOL. I live in a small community and have set on the local school board for several years now, and can tell you without hesitation that the children who's parents don't assist in disciplining their children are liberal touchy feely "let kids be kids" types, not conservatives who believe in teaching values. 

Do you even know the meaning of the word honesty?


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## LuckyDan (Aug 22, 2010)

Modbert said:


> *I go to a college that I suppose would be considered Liberal*. In my personal experiences, only one professor talked about anything related to current events and it was to inform students about the goings on in Asia. Makes sense since it was a Non-Western World class focused on Japan and China.
> 
> Though another professor had us go to the local Jewish Community Center to listen to someone speak who lived in Nazi Germany before World War II and how she barely escaped with her family.
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So, if there were an outspoken con prof on campus, you would know? 

What I'm getting at is, if the faculty's political spectrum ran from con to lib, you could identify a con prof, right? Whereas if the spectrum runs moderate to liberal, things might seem more harmonious.

Sound like there isn't much boat-rockin' on your campus. No?


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## syrenn (Aug 22, 2010)

Its not politically correct to be conservative. Colleges live in a PC world.


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## Quantum Windbag (Aug 22, 2010)

Modbert said:


> I go to a college that I suppose would be considered Liberal. In my personal experiences, only one professor talked about anything related to current events and it was to inform students about the goings on in Asia. Makes sense since it was a Non-Western World class focused on Japan and China.
> 
> Though another professor had us go to the local Jewish Community Center to listen to someone speak who lived in Nazi Germany before World War II and how she barely escaped with her family.
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Sounds about right to me.


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## Modbert (Aug 22, 2010)

LuckyDan said:


> So, if there were an outspoken con prof on campus, you would know?
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> What I'm getting at is, if the faculty's political spectrum ran from con to lib, you could identify a con prof, right? Whereas if the spectrum runs moderate to liberal, things might seem more harmonious.
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> Sound like there isn't much boat-rockin' on your campus. No?



There aren't any outspoken Conservative or Liberal professors far as I know. I don't know any and I have plenty of friends who are History majors or related majors.


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## ConHog (Aug 22, 2010)

Modbert said:


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## Quantum Windbag (Aug 22, 2010)

rdean said:


> So I go through these colleges.  None of them are in "Alabama" or "South Carolina".



I bet I am going to enjoy this.

What does the fact that they are not in Alabama or South Carolina have to do with this discussion?




rdean said:


> All of them were founded in the late 1600's.
> In fact,  the only one that even talks about "Gawd" on their site is Yale, which identifies itself as providing a "liberal" education.



Wanna bet on that?

Princeton Theological Seminary



rdean said:


> (the following is especially funny coming from Yale history)
> 
> About Yale | History
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Maybe you should look up what that means sometime, you might learn something. (I doubt it, but it is always possible.)



> The original seven liberal arts, in the classical world, consisted of the _trivium_ of deductive reasoning comprised of grammar, logic, and rhetoric, and the _quadrivium_ of quantitative reasoning, which encompassed geometry, astronomy, arithmetic, and music. In _Rethinking Liberal Education_  (1996), Bruce Kimball describes how the medieval European universities  added to the seven liberal arts "the three philosophies": natural  philosophy (empirical science), moral philosophy (human thought and  behavior), and metaphysics (ontology, or the study of being).



Elements of a Liberal Education - Catalog | Grinnell College

Gee, that means it is not about politics, or even about believing in God, (though the traditional European education always came from church sponsored schools.) it is about what is taught. If only you were capable of thinking beyond labels you might not always end up looking like a fool.



rdean said:


> Now come on people.  To pretend that conservatives are all into "education" is ludicrous.  Not even you guys can possibly believe that.  The only education conservatives want is business so they can scam people out of their money.



Yet you pretend that you know what you are talking about.



rdean said:


> Definitions of conservative:
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> resistant to change
> having social or political views favoring conservatism
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Does that mean I should stop trying to reason with you?


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## George Costanza (Aug 22, 2010)

Quantum Windbag said:


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Probably the majority of the best, private colleges in the nation (the Ivy League schools and half a dozen other small private colleges) bill themselves as "Christian" colleges.  Yet these are the very same colleges I see derided by conservatives on a regular basis as being the homes  of "liberal elitists."

President Obama went to Occidental but received his undergraduate degree from Columbia.  He graduated Magna Cum Laude from Harvard Law School.  Does anyone deny that abuse that has been heaped upon President Obama on this very board for his higher education and the various schools where it was obtained?  

Why?  WHY this distrust of higher education?  There have been some good answers so far, mixed in with the usual garbage from the usual contributors thereof.  But I have yet to read something that truly answers this question, in my opinion.


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## rdean (Aug 22, 2010)

Quantum Windbag said:


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When you start, let me know.


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## rdean (Aug 22, 2010)

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Values?  What "values" do you have?  You can't even be honest.

You know, when conservatives post links, I always go read them.  In fact, there have been many times where the link they posted actually took my position.  It make me wonder if they even bother to go find out what the argument is all about or even read their own links.  

They already have a "position" and don't need no stinking "facts".

So this is about "conservative" and "liberal"?  Well that makes it even worse.  At least some Democrats call themselves "conservative", but the number of scientists that calls themselves "conservative" is a staggering "9%"  You heard me.  9%! While 66% call themselves "liberal".  And they left out "teachers, professors or anyone who teaches in any way".  This entire survey is strictly made up of US scientists who are working in this country in industry and the government.  That means, the number of conservatives and Republicans has got to be FAR LESS.







Public Praises Science; Scientists Fault Public, Media: Section 4: Scientists, Politics and Religion - Pew Research Center for the People & the Press

*Galileao was a practicing Catholic, Einstein an atheist. Guess that dispels your theory huh?*

You see?  Who even knows what you are talking about?  Galileo was excommunicated.  As for Einstein, do you think "atheist" is a form of Christian religion?

*As for your ridiculous notion that nothing good ever comes out of conservative colleges. *

Where did I say that?

*conservatives who believe in teaching values. *

So far you've lied and misrepresented by accusing me of saying things I never did.  So I ask again, "What "values" are you talking about?" because you don't seem to have many I would want.


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## Titanic Sailor (Aug 22, 2010)

There are folks in universities and school systems who are conservative. They have to keep a low profile because of heavy politics against them. Outnumbered in government and educational systems. These are small government and fiscal conservatives.

A liberal is a nuclear powered, goody two shoes, opinionated, social conservative. They love massive government, massive taxation on the people, and restrictive laws. They are also completely against ANY government reform. The system is just fine for them, continue sending your checks to them. Most of today's changes in society and laws that equate to the highest prison population in history came from liberals.

You see, liberals got this way because this is their payroll. 
Your tax dollars at work: 2010 State Payroll - BostonHerald.com

They receive tax benefits, are not considered big business, and have a very nice gig going on thanks to almost a century of Democrat monopoly on legislation and power. I think last year you used to have to go page 30 to find anyone making under 150K in this state, now expect it's worse this year.

And the lower class and middle class are being denied a higher education because of cost restrictions.

Glad the liberals doing so well. 

This is why conservatives have always been more charitable than liberals. Not a very good crew these liberals, extremely arrogant and selfish.


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## HUGGY (Aug 22, 2010)

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I don't* use* rdean for anything.

How predictable..a knee jerk response that does not actually deal with the points I made.  The OP asks why "more" not "only" a liberal bias.  You are an idiot.  Many fundimentalists do in fact believe the earth is 5000 years old.

As for blowing "my little world" apart ..it would take a hell of a lot more than you and your christian fascist fuckwits to accomplish that task.  Do ya feel lucky punk?..well? do ya?


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## HUGGY (Aug 22, 2010)

California Girl said:


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I have voted republican for more years than you have been alive sugar tits.  For one with such a lofty IQ you do not display it very prominantly.


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## CurveLight (Aug 22, 2010)

ConHog said:


> Simple. those who can do, those who can't teach. Liberals can't , so they teach.



This tired reetawrded cliche has always been repeated by ignorant intellectually dishonest desperate fuxxing jackasses.


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## Truthmatters (Aug 22, 2010)

George Costanza said:


> A common cry of many conservatives is that, in general, our institutions of higher learning in this country (colleges, universities, etc.) are "liberal."  They teach "liberal concepts," they cater to liberals, all of the professors are liberals, and so forth.  Let's assume, for sake of argument, that this is correct - that our colleges and universities are, for the most part, liberal.
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> What is it about our colleges and universities that makes them liberal, in your opinion and why do you think they became so, as opposed to leaning more toward conservative thought?




Because facts have a liberal bias


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## rdean (Aug 22, 2010)

Titanic Sailor said:


> There are folks in universities and school systems who are conservative. They have to keep a low profile because of heavy politics against them. Outnumbered in government and educational systems. These are small government and fiscal conservatives.
> 
> A liberal is a nuclear powered, goody two shoes, opinionated, social conservative. They love massive government, massive taxation on the people, and restrictive laws. They are also completely against ANY government reform. The system is just fine for them, continue sending your checks to them. Most of today's changes in society and laws that equate to the highest prison population in history came from liberals.
> 
> ...



Wow, what a scary unreality you live in.  

I don't understand how the right wing makes up the most fantastic shit and then, without any type of evidence, data, statistics or any proof whatsoever, they are convinced their "imaginings" are "real".  Must be scary.


----------



## Truthmatters (Aug 22, 2010)

They have to hate smart people, they are the ones with the fancy smancy facts that know just how and why the cons failed ideas failed.


----------



## HUGGY (Aug 22, 2010)

rdean said:


> Titanic Sailor said:
> 
> 
> > There are folks in universities and school systems who are conservative. They have to keep a low profile because of heavy politics against them. Outnumbered in government and educational systems. These are small government and fiscal conservatives.
> ...



It has been an embarrassment to be a republican for the last 40 years.  Feel my pain!


----------



## antagon (Aug 22, 2010)

George Costanza said:


> A common cry of many conservatives is that, in general, our institutions of higher learning in this country (colleges, universities, etc.) are "liberal."  They teach "liberal concepts," they cater to liberals, all of the professors are liberals, and so forth.  Let's assume, for sake of argument, that this is correct - that our colleges and universities are, for the most part, liberal.
> 
> What is it about our colleges and universities that makes them liberal, in your opinion and why do you think they became so, as opposed to leaning more toward conservative thought?



the USMB has left me with the impression that those who are so conservative that they would make paranoid comments like the ones described in the OP, are poorly informed on politics, history and economics (for starters).  any references to the proceeds of these studies is characterized as librul.  the uni's disseminating all the librul drivel are the most libertarded of all in their view.


----------



## Quantum Windbag (Aug 22, 2010)

George Costanza said:


> Quantum Windbag said:
> 
> 
> > rdean said:
> ...



I thought I made that clear in a previous post, the government is involved in a lot of education decisions that should be left strictly up to the schools.

Then you couple that with the attitude of some graduates of various elite schools that a degree from their school is worth more than one from the University of Alabama or from Texas Tech, even though they are functionally equivalent and what makes the real difference is the person who gets the degree and not where it is from, and you get a mistrust of people who go to these schools.

Then we get the really obnoxious people who think that people without a college degree are somehow inferior to those who have one, and you get the icing on the cake. Why does Obama think everyone in the US should go to college? I would love to take him to my local Mensa chapter and introduce him to the garbage collector who solves complex math theorems for fun. Or the guy that used to be a bouncer in Long Island who is possibly the smartest guy in the United States.

In other words, the problem comes from both sides of the issue. Those on the education side who look down on the hoi polloi, and from the people who resent all those with an education because of the people who look down on them.


----------



## Quantum Windbag (Aug 22, 2010)

HUGGY said:


> Quantum Windbag said:
> 
> 
> > HUGGY said:
> ...



You made points? Could you reiterate them? Because it looked to me that all you did was spout talking points.

Talking point 1. Credible colleges all teach science.
Talking point 2. Conservatives are religious and hate science.
Talking point 3. Religious people reject history.

Did I sum them up properly? Would you like me to point to the parts of my post that addressed these alleged points? Would you be able to comprehend them if I did?

Here is a credible liberal arts college and its fields of study.

https://www.amherst.edu/academiclife/departments

Now here is, by your standards, a non credible Christian college. 

Oklahoma Baptist University

Look at that, bragging right there about their placement rate to medical school, even though it displays Baptist prominently in its name, and is in the middle of the Bible Belt.

Gee, I wonder how they get students into medical school when they are not a credible school, and they could not teach science because they are conservatives and Baptists to boot, and everyone knows Baptists don't believe in evolution, and they probably all believe in faith healing.

Since you insist that you do not use rdean for anything, the only possible explanation of you spouting the same ignorant nonsense that he does is that he uses you. That makes you nothing more than a poor imitation of rdean, and even less worthy of serious consideration than he is.


----------



## Quantum Windbag (Aug 22, 2010)

Truthmatters said:


> George Costanza said:
> 
> 
> > A common cry of many conservatives is that, in general, our institutions of higher learning in this country (colleges, universities, etc.) are "liberal."  They teach "liberal concepts," they cater to liberals, all of the professors are liberals, and so forth.  Let's assume, for sake of argument, that this is correct - that our colleges and universities are, for the most part, liberal.
> ...



Yours certainly do.


----------



## HUGGY (Aug 22, 2010)

*Talking point 1. Credible colleges all teach science.
Talking point 2. Conservatives are religious and hate science.
Talking point 3. Religious people reject history.
*

Firstly I don't subscribe to ANY talking points.  All my statements are my own and any that run parallel to someone elses ideas is purely coincidental.

#1 True fact

#2 I never said that Fundimentalists hate science.  The term conservative is too vague and does not show up in my statement.  Fundimentalists do not trust science.  They avoid schools that reject their religious teachings.

#3 I never said "religious".  I specifically and intentionally singled out fundimentalists.


----------



## Quantum Windbag (Aug 22, 2010)

HUGGY said:


> *Talking point 1. Credible colleges all teach science.
> Talking point 2. Conservatives are religious and hate science.
> Talking point 3. Religious people reject history.
> *
> ...





The fact that you use the same words in the same order is purely a coincidence? Don't ever try that absurd defense in a court or a classroom when someone points out that you are plagiarizing someone else.




HUGGY said:


> #1 True fact
> 
> #2 I never said that Fundimentalists hate science.  The term conservative is too vague and does not show up in my statement.  Fundimentalists do not trust science.  They avoid schools that reject their religious teachings.



Nice try, but you forget that everything you post is there for everyone to see.



HUGGY said:


> It's simple really.  Credible colleges all teach  science.  Many conservatives belief systems don't allow for real  scientific facts and accepted theories.  That excludes most of the  religious fundamentalists by their own choice.  Also to expand on the  religious theme... History and archeology defies much of the religious  dogma and flies in the face of those that choose the bible and other  religious doctrine as their historical guide.



The minor fact that you left out the apostrophe when you wrote your post, probably because you lack a basic understanding of English grammar, does not change the fact that the word conservative does show up in your post, even if you know claim it does not.

Isn't there a word for that?




HUGGY said:


> #3 I never said "religious".  I specifically and intentionally singled out fundimentalists.



I remember the word now, it is lie.



HUGGY said:


> It's simple really.  Credible colleges all teach  science.  Many conservatives belief systems don't allow for real  scientific facts and accepted theories.  That excludes most of the  religious fundamentalists by their own choice.  Also to expand on the  religious theme... History and archeology defies much of the religious  dogma and flies in the face of those that choose the bible and other  religious doctrine as their historical guide.



The truth is that you are now attempting to backtrack from your original post because I proved that you are wrong. The clear emphasis of your post was on conservatives in general, their religious belief, and your attempt to equate all conservatives with religious fundamentalists.


----------



## rdean (Aug 22, 2010)

Quantum Windbag said:


> George Costanza said:
> 
> 
> > Quantum Windbag said:
> ...



Who even knows what point you want to make?  Just weird "imaginings".  Garbage collector?  Bouncer?

Getting a degree from Texas Tech is a pretty big deal.  Look at a tiny bit of their curriculum:

Cell Biology & Biochemistry
Cell Physiology and Molecular 
Biophysics
Dermatology 
Microbiology and Immunolog
Ophthalmology 
Pathology 

This is a "research University".

As far as the University of Alabama, they have a great biology department and teach "evolution", which of course, is the foundation science for biology, botany and physiology.

Department of Biological Sciences, The University of Alabama

Because you list some "great universities" in some southern states doesn't address the issue that the right has only contempt for education.  They down evolution.  I bet the universities you listed are chock full of "liberal elitist scientists" teaching there.

Even Michael Behe, the father of the "Irreducible Complexity" phrase, while on the stand at Dover, Penn, was asked, "If following the same criteria that makes ID "science", would "Astrology" and "Alchemy" also be "science"?"  And he said, "Yes".

So, Alchemy, Astrology and Intelligent Design are "equal".  And we want to teach this at "universities"?  Many members of the right do.  Probably even the majority.  To me, that would be a major embarrassment to even seriously suggest something so nonsensical.


----------



## CrusaderFrank (Aug 22, 2010)

It's simple, Marxists set as their goal to take over American media and education and they succeeded. It's only since they lost their media monopoly that we're seeing the extent of the damage

1963 Communist goals

15. Capture one or both of the political parties in the United States (Democrats totally taken over after fall of USSR in early 90's)

17. Get control of the schools. Use them as transmission belts for socialism and current Communist propaganda. Soften the curriculum. Get control of teachers' associations. Put the party line in textbooks.


----------



## antagon (Aug 22, 2010)

two pairs for one post, frank.

strap 'em up.


----------



## Quantum Windbag (Aug 22, 2010)

rdean said:


> Who even knows what point you want to make?  Just weird "imaginings".  Garbage collector?  Bouncer?



Sorry, I forgot there were people like you around here.



> What is Mensa?
> 
> Mensa was founded in England in 1946 by Roland Berrill, a barrister, and  Dr. Lance Ware, a scientist and lawyer. They had the idea of forming a  society for bright people, the only qualification for membership of  which was a high IQ. The original aims were, as they are today, to  create a society that is non-political and free from all racial or  religious distinctions. The society welcomes people from every walk of  life whose IQ is in the top 2% of the population, with the objective of  enjoying each other's company and participating in a wide range of  social and cultural activities.





> What kind of people are Members of Mensa?
> 
> There is simply no one prevailing characteristic of Mensa members  other than high IQ. There are Mensans for whom Mensa provides a sense of  family, and others for whom it is a casual social activity. There have  been many marriages made in Mensa, but for many people, it is simply a  stimulating opportunity for the mind. Most Mensans have a good sense of  humor, and they like to talk. And, usually, they have a lot to say. Mensans have ranged in age from 2 to more than 100, but most are  between 20 and 60. In education they range from preschoolers to high  school dropouts to people with multiple doctorates. There are Mensans on  welfare and Mensans who are millionaires. As far as occupations, the  range is staggering. Mensa has professors and truck drivers, scientists  and firefighters, computer programmers and farmers, artists, military  people, musicians, laborers, police officers, glassblowers--the diverse  list goes on and on. There are famous Mensans and prize-winning Mensans,  but there are many whose names you wouldn't know. Have a look at our list of prominent Mensans here.




About Mensa International | Mensa International

Now you know that there people out there who are actually smart.



rdean said:


> Getting a degree from Texas Tech is a pretty big deal.  Look at a tiny bit of their curriculum:
> 
> Cell Biology & Biochemistry
> Cell Physiology and Molecular
> ...



Are you totally incapable of comprehending English?

I could just as easily have used WSU and URI as my examples. The point was that there are some schools that are considered elite, and some that are not. What makes the real difference is the person, not the school they go to.

This is something you obviously do not understand, which makes you part of the problem. Maybe you should grow up and start being part of the solution.



rdean said:


> Even Michael Behe, the father of the "Irreducible Complexity" phrase, while on the stand at Dover, Penn, was asked, "If following the same criteria that makes ID "science", would "Astrology" and "Alchemy" also be "science"?"  And he said, "Yes".



Interesting.

But exactly what does it have to do with my post, or this thread? Are you just trolling the boards in a desperate attempt to make me look stupid after I slapped you down in the thread where you tried to argue that a press release proved that dark matter exists? If so, this is a complete failure because I have never advocated ID or Creation Science.




rdean said:


> So, Alchemy, Astrology and Intelligent Design are "equal".  And we want  to teach this at "universities"?  Many members of the right do.   Probably even the majority.  To me, that would be a major embarrassment  to even seriously suggest something so nonsensical.



And this is why you always loose when you attempt to debate me, you are incapable of sticking to facts.

Kitzmiller v. Dover: Day 10, AM: Michael Behe

There is the transcript of Behe's testimony, and I will challenge you to point out where it mentions alchemy in any way, shape, or form.


----------



## asterism (Aug 22, 2010)

George Costanza said:


> A common cry of many conservatives is that, in general, our institutions of higher learning in this country (colleges, universities, etc.) are "liberal."  They teach "liberal concepts," they cater to liberals, all of the professors are liberals, and so forth.  Let's assume, for sake of argument, that this is correct - that our colleges and universities are, for the most part, liberal.
> 
> What is it about our colleges and universities that makes them liberal, in your opinion and why do you think they became so, as opposed to leaning more toward conservative thought?



I think it's a function of the idealogical struggle and the positions of power each ideology had.  Academic theory was sidelined in favor of practical solutions.  Observation and study of those solutions led to other theories that worked well, but as always there is a team mentality.  A contingent of people who had the only option of academia strove for notoriety and credence, and introduced an alternative set of concepts meant to surreptitiously garner support for their causes in one area by means of convincing people in other areas that this was a valid path.

The industrial revolution was the opposite of this, it was the academics who ruled because they had the ear of the moneyed powers that be so the industrialists prospered with their pragmatic innovations.  Then the same team mentality emerged with some accomplished industrialists introducing stealth ideals using the same tactic.


----------



## asterism (Aug 22, 2010)

California Girl said:


> George Costanza said:
> 
> 
> > HUGGY said:
> ...



I agree.  It's funny to watch a bunch of "free thinkers" all agree on everything, down to which wine tastes best and what art is worthy.

Stupid fucks don't even have basic understanding of effective marketing and its purpose.  You'll note many of the carry iPhones and rail against AT&T because they can't make phone calls.  Do they switch carriers?  Of course not!  They have to have an iPhone!  A phone that can't make calls reliably, on a network that is underpowered.  It's positively astounding.  Steve Jobs is one of the best capitalists yet, second only to Noam Chomsky.


----------



## asterism (Aug 22, 2010)

rdean said:


> Definitions of conservative:
> 
> resistant to change



Interesting, since the entire conservative population is openly clamoring for change, change away from the liberal Keynesian micromanagement of the economy that's going on right now.

It's the "liberals" who want to stay the course.

If that initial broadbrush doesn't fit, do any of your others?


----------



## asterism (Aug 22, 2010)

syrenn said:


> The hippies grew up, had no money and realized they were losers. They got teaching jobs and are now geriatric hippies who teach.
> 
> I know smart mouth answer but that is how i see it. Look at the ages of professor's and you will see their genera. They are for the most part the 60's 70's teens and young adults. Being liberal or conservative does not effect the ability to teach. It does at times slant the style of that teaching.



There's not much money in teaching so generally it can be said that those who can do and those who can't teach.

Mind you, there are millions of teachers that are very very good and they come in all political persuasions.  Many actually see teaching as a vocation, one as righteous as clergy or military service.  Those are the good ones.

But there are plenty of History majors who chose that direction because they flunked Calculus (and therefore couldn't get into Physics, Engineering, Biology, Business, etc.) and couldn't get into law school have become teachers.

The scary part is I know some who actually teach Math.  They don't understand it, and they emphasize that the curriculum is set and the materials are provided.  And people wonder why Math education is deteriorating.


----------



## asterism (Aug 22, 2010)

rdean said:


> Good for you.  I applaud your education for what it's worth.
> 
> The truth is, the Republican Party, as a whole, does not respect education.  It's true that college professors voted 12 to 1 for Obama and it's also true, according to Pew research, that very few scientists will identify themselves as Republican.
> 
> ...



Interesting.

Are you a student of Science?  If so, what discipline?


----------



## rdean (Aug 22, 2010)

Quantum Windbag said:


> rdean said:
> 
> 
> > Who even knows what point you want to make?  Just weird "imaginings".  Garbage collector?  Bouncer?
> ...



But does he mention "astrology"????????????

Astrology is scientific theory, courtroom told - science-in-society - 19 October 2005 - New Scientist

Astrology would be considered a scientific theory if judged by the same criteria used by a well-known advocate of Intelligent Design to justify his claim that ID is science, a landmark US trial heard on Tuesday.

Under cross examination, ID proponent Michael Behe, a biochemist at Lehigh University in Bethlehem, Pennsylvania, admitted his definition of "theory" was so broad it would also include astrology.


----------



## rdean (Aug 22, 2010)

asterism said:


> rdean said:
> 
> 
> > Good for you.  I applaud your education for what it's worth.
> ...



I am not a scientist and never said I was.  I am only a lowly engineer.

But to understand the right wing's opinion on education, one only needs to be able to read.   They don't exactly hide their disdain.


----------



## xotoxi (Aug 22, 2010)

Modbert said:


> I go to a college that I suppose would be considered Liberal. In my personal experiences, only one professor talked about anything related to current events and it was to inform students about the goings on in Asia. Makes sense since it was a Non-Western World class focused on Japan and China.
> 
> Though another professor had us go to the local Jewish Community Center to listen to someone speak who lived in Nazi Germany before World War II and how she barely escaped with her family.
> 
> ...



Are you going to University of Southern Massachusetts at Barnstable?

(Lets see how many people get that)


----------



## xotoxi (Aug 22, 2010)

George Costanza said:


> Let's assume, for sake of argument, that this is correct - that our colleges and universities are, for the most part, liberal.



Why do we have to assume that?

And what would a conservative change in a college curriculum that would make it no longer liberal and make it conservative?

Just one specific.

Thinking back to my experience in college, I don't recall anything in any of my classes that was in any way political.


----------



## asterism (Aug 22, 2010)

rdean said:


> asterism said:
> 
> 
> > rdean said:
> ...



I'm a student of Science and I am conservative.  I don't know for sure, but I'd bet money you'd consider me "right wing."  It seems another one of your broadbrush comments has been proven false.

I don't see a disdain for education by the right wing, I see a challenge to the structure that has decimated the advancement of free thinking in education.

Your charts that show a virtual consensus on political ideology by Scientists doesn't prove that left of center perspective is correct and here's all these Scientists who substantiate it.  It could quite possibly show groupthink and team mentality in action.  There is also a protectionist structure - "we can't accredit him, he doesn't agree with us."  See the University of East Anglia situation for some evidence of that.  When a journal published a study counter to the authoritative "experts," they reacted by trying to undermine the journal as an entity instead of just refuting the position with facts.

The most brilliant and lauded Scientists in history are those who went against conventional thought of the day.  Which liberal Scientist does that now?

For someone who is liberal and lauds Science so much, I'd have at least thought you gave it the respect it deserves by at least studying it.  I have.  

Maybe your back of the hand logic doesn't fit?


----------



## asterism (Aug 22, 2010)

xotoxi said:


> George Costanza said:
> 
> 
> > Let's assume, for sake of argument, that this is correct - that our colleges and universities are, for the most part, liberal.
> ...



What was your major?


----------



## Quantum Windbag (Aug 22, 2010)

asterism said:


> California Girl said:
> 
> 
> > George Costanza said:
> ...



[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FL7yD-0pqZg]YouTube - iPhone4 vs HTC Evo[/ame]


----------



## Quantum Windbag (Aug 22, 2010)

asterism said:


> rdean said:
> 
> 
> > Definitions of conservative:
> ...



They don't, trust me.


----------



## Quantum Windbag (Aug 22, 2010)

rdean said:


> But does he mention "astrology"????????????
> 
> Astrology is scientific theory, courtroom told - science-in-society - 19 October 2005 - New Scientist
> 
> ...



Since I posted the trial transcript I did tacitly admit he admitted astrology meets his definition of theory.

Funny thing though, until rdean mentioned it, this thread was about why universities are considered to be liberal. You will learn that he cannot talk about anything without mentioning that only 6% of scientist self identify as Republicans. Please do not ask him for the link to prove that though, as he will just tell you that Google is your friend, while insisting that you provide links to back up your posts.


----------



## asterism (Aug 23, 2010)

Quantum Windbag said:


> asterism said:
> 
> 
> > California Girl said:
> ...



Funny.

People who spend all their time on political message boards have no idea how the world actually works.  You want the message board equivalent of combat?  Debate technology.  They need to put on their big boy underwear though, it's so brutal that it makes this place seem like a utopia.

Just imagine running a forum to discuss video cards and those who disagree don't just get nasty, they hack the site on a daily basis.  Every counter hacking strategy was employed, but then the owner of the datacenter who hosted the site pulled the trump card and edited posts.

But then we all later laughed about it!

Yeah, that was 1987.  It's good to see society catching up.


----------



## ConHog (Aug 23, 2010)

Did someone really say conservatives hate history?


----------



## Quantum Windbag (Aug 23, 2010)

Not really, unless you are counting rdean as someone.


----------



## asterism (Aug 23, 2010)

Quantum Windbag said:


> Not really, unless you are counting rdean as someone.



rdean is funny.  He lauds Science but doesn't endeavor himself as someone who bothers to study Science.  Telling.

He trusts that which he does not understand.  Something tells me he thinks that would be foolish if the same situation were applied to an ignorant (according to the Engineer) person who accepts Christianity.

It's human dynamic and typical power acquisition folks.  This stuff isn't complicated.

rdean hasn't taken 7 vacations this year, but he'll gladly say that you should pay for his leader'[s prerogative to do it.


----------



## Dante (Aug 23, 2010)

George Costanza said:


> A common cry of many conservatives is that, in general, our institutions of higher learning in this country (colleges, universities, etc.) are "liberal."  They teach "liberal concepts," they cater to liberals, all of the professors are liberals, and so forth.  Let's assume, for sake of argument, that this is correct - that our colleges and universities are, for the most part, liberal.
> 
> What is it about our colleges and universities that makes them liberal, in your opinion and why do you think they became so, as opposed to leaning more toward conservative thought?


Liberal Arts


----------



## Dante (Aug 23, 2010)

ConHog said:


> Did someone really say conservatives hate history?


I doubt there are people that smaht here.


----------



## antagon (Aug 23, 2010)

ConHog said:


> Did someone really say conservatives hate history?


uber-cons hate _accurate_ history.  i said something to that effect.


----------



## daveman (Aug 23, 2010)

rdean said:


> (the following is especially funny coming from Yale history)
> 
> About Yale | History
> 
> ...


Yes, especially when you consider that modern liberalism and traditional European liberalism share only a name.

Classical liberalism is about liberty of the individual.  Modern liberalism is about the collective and government control over individual lives.  It has nothing to do with actual liberty.


----------



## mudwhistle (Aug 23, 2010)

rdean said:


> Quantum Windbag said:
> 
> 
> > HUGGY said:
> ...



Everyone assumes Sarah Palin is stupid....which explains why she was a Journalism major.

Where that woman got the idea she was a teacher one can only wonder.

But Sarah Palin isn't one of our leaders. We don't have any leaders. Most of us can think for ourselves and don't take our ques from higher ups. 

I think teachers give themselves the image they have today...not the right.


----------



## lizzie (Aug 23, 2010)

George Costanza said:


> What is it about our colleges and universities that makes them liberal, in your opinion and why do you think they became so, as opposed to leaning more toward conservative thought?


 
Just a couple of possibilities-

I'm sure you know the old adage "those who can't do, teach".

Generally, in my observation, those who are "hands-on" in personality tend to be more practical, while those who are thinkers tend to live more in the world of ideas, thus are less practical. Many of us live in both worlds, and can find a balance point at which our ideology doesn't dominate what is practical, but universities seem to be staffed primarily with a high proportion of thinkers rather than doers.


----------



## Spoonman (Aug 23, 2010)

lizzie said:


> George Costanza said:
> 
> 
> > What is it about our colleges and universities that makes them liberal, in your opinion and why do you think they became so, as opposed to leaning more toward conservative thought?
> ...


You have a pretty good take on a lot of things.


----------



## daveman (Aug 23, 2010)

The juvenile sea squirt wanders through the ocean searching for a suitable rock or hunk of coral to cling to and make its home for life. When it finds its spot and takes root, it doesn't need its brain any more...so it eats it. It's rather like getting tenure. 

--Michael Scriven


----------



## topspin (Aug 23, 2010)

ConHog said:


> Simple. those who can do, those who can't teach. Liberals can't , so they teach.



 so those who can cut it in history do, those that can't Narc?


----------



## Dr.Traveler (Aug 23, 2010)

lizzie said:


> George Costanza said:
> 
> 
> > What is it about our colleges and universities that makes them liberal, in your opinion and why do you think they became so, as opposed to leaning more toward conservative thought?
> ...



I don't buy into the whole "those that can't..." blah blah blah nonsense.

But I do think that your "thinkers versus doers" line of argument might be a clue as to what is going on.  I can tell you as an Academic myself, I work easily 60+ hours a week between research, class prep, committee work, community outreach, recruiting, etc.  A decent amount of that time is spent staring at my blackboard willing the logic symbols to form together into something coherent and practical.

What's really very interesting to me though is how the modern world has formed a working relationship between the doers and thinkers. Most of the cutting edge research driving innovation and business is happening on campus by the "thinkers" and then getting exported out to the "doers" when in the past the body of knowledge necessary to truly innovate was such that the "doers" had a chance of innovating the world without the "thinkers."

Now industry is incredibly dependent on academia to provide skilled workers and research needed to drive business.


----------



## antagon (Aug 23, 2010)

lizzie said:


> George Costanza said:
> 
> 
> > What is it about our colleges and universities that makes them liberal, in your opinion and why do you think they became so, as opposed to leaning more toward conservative thought?
> ...


universities tend to 'live in both worlds' too.  i don't think there's any sense in separating practicality from knowledge if you're talking about the real world.


----------



## lizzie (Aug 23, 2010)

antagon said:


> lizzie said:
> 
> 
> > George Costanza said:
> ...


 
The university as an entity does (live in both worlds). The individuals who make up the teaching staff of universities do not. Those who are teaching are not running and managing the institution- they are instructing those of us who are the doers.


----------



## rdean (Aug 23, 2010)

asterism said:


> Quantum Windbag said:
> 
> 
> > Not really, unless you are counting rdean as someone.
> ...



All these observations explained and yet not a single concrete example.  One could almost say your full of shit, but that would be impolite.  How about, "The world is lucky that it doesn't operate the way you 'imagine' it to work."


----------



## Dr.Traveler (Aug 23, 2010)

Not so much "instructing" the doers as enabling them.  After all the doers go to the university because they need/can use what they find there.  If the University had nothing to offer, the doers wouldn't be filling my classrooms.

And it isn't just students coming to take advantage of what the university has to offer.  Many of my colleagues across campus supplement their income working as consultants for local industry.  Local businesses help keep the campus open through donations.

I want to address something else too.  Many on this board seem to think that academia is a "Borg mentality.". The only reason it appears that way is because academia closes ranks quickly against outsiders.  It's pure survival.  The truth is there isn't a department on campus that isn't rife with disagreements on techniques, research, methodology, etc.  Academia is a haven for diverse ideas.  Closing ranks when attacked is how we protect that.

Sorry for any typos.  I'm typing this on my iPod touch, not an iPhone.  I can't get reception with AT&T.


----------



## rdean (Aug 23, 2010)

Dr.Traveler said:


> Not so much "instructing" the doers as enabling them.  After all the doers go to the university because they need/can use what they find there.  If the University had nothing to offer, the doers wouldn't be filling my classrooms.
> 
> And it isn't just students coming to take advantage of what the university has to offer.  Many of my colleagues across campus supplement their income working as consultants for local industry.  Local businesses help keep the campus open through donations.
> 
> ...



There is such a difference between what goes on at a university and what the right wing "imagines" goes on. 

I never worked so hard in my life.  And in all the years I attended (going to night school and weekends on the GI bill, doubles the time it takes), I only had one teacher ever talked politics.  

He was a physics teacher that also worked in research on using lasers in dermatology.  He was from Iraq and talked about the Iranians because at the time Iraq was a war with Iran.  He was hilarious. 

I don't know what set him off, but it was so funny.  He talked in that accent Iraqis have:

"Oh these Iranians, tsk, tsk, they only have one way to learn.  You have to beat them.  To teach them, they must be beaten.  And the women are so ugly, they are always covered. (remember, women were only forced to wear burkas in Iraq AFTER Bush freed them).  They have so much hair on their lip.  And the men are all homosexual.  Which is so strange, because they breed like flies.  And in Tehran, they carry those big radios with that music playing so loud.  They have no class.  To teach them, you have to beat them."

And there was a guy from the Israeli military who was studying to be a doctor and he was falling out of his chair.  It was hilarious.


----------



## jillian (Aug 23, 2010)

George Costanza said:


> A common cry of many conservatives is that, in general, our institutions of higher learning in this country (colleges, universities, etc.) are "liberal."  They teach "liberal concepts," they cater to liberals, all of the professors are liberals, and so forth.  Let's assume, for sake of argument, that this is correct - that our colleges and universities are, for the most part, liberal.
> 
> What is it about our colleges and universities that makes them liberal, in your opinion and why do you think they became so, as opposed to leaning more toward conservative thought?



funny you should ask that. a few weeks ago, the author Lizzie Wurtzel (Prozac Nation) tweeted something to the effect that if it's 'intellectuals' who are drawn toward 'liberalism', maybe liberalism is just smarter.


----------



## jillian (Aug 23, 2010)

lizzie said:


> antagon said:
> 
> 
> > lizzie said:
> ...



most colleges populate their professorial staffs with people who are not only intellectuals but who have had practical experience... probably more among the adjunct professors, though, i'd think.


----------



## Modbert (Aug 23, 2010)

So am I the only one in this thread who has posted and is actually currently going to college currently?


----------



## rdean (Aug 23, 2010)

jillian said:


> George Costanza said:
> 
> 
> > A common cry of many conservatives is that, in general, our institutions of higher learning in this country (colleges, universities, etc.) are "liberal."  They teach "liberal concepts," they cater to liberals, all of the professors are liberals, and so forth.  Let's assume, for sake of argument, that this is correct - that our colleges and universities are, for the most part, liberal.
> ...



Knowledge isn't conservative or liberal, it's impartial.  But liberals are generally drawn towards education, facts, research and knowledge because it's so satisfying.  The more you learn, the more secure you feel.  

Conservative is all about "freeze everything in place" so we can feel secure.  Only, you feel less secure.  What you don't understand can be frightening.


----------



## lizzie (Aug 23, 2010)

Dr.Traveler said:


> I want to address something else too. Many on this board seem to think that academia is a "Borg mentality.".


 
I don't see it as Borg mentality myself, I just tend to think that the world of academia is primarily made up of people who are more skilled at conceptualizing than producing.  It's not an insult, it's just differences in the way individuals perceive, analyze, and act. I can conceptualize something that I want to accomplish, and I accomplish it myself with my own energy and skills. Some people can conceptualize something that they desire to be a reality, but they lack the skills or knowledge to create it. Others cannot conceptualize something that they want, but when they see it, they can replicate it. My original premise was that academia primarily attracts those that can conceptualize, dream, and think, but their inability to put their ideas into "form" keeps them from being oriented toward practicality, because thinking, in and of itself, does not demand practical solutions.


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## lizzie (Aug 23, 2010)

Modbert said:


> So am I the only one in this thread who has posted and is actually currently going to college currently?


 
Maybe so. I finished 27 years ago, with the exception of a few courses I've taken just because I love school. I would be a student my entire life if I didn't need to work for a living.


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## rdean (Aug 23, 2010)

jillian said:


> lizzie said:
> 
> 
> > antagon said:
> ...



Absolutely, one physics teacher I had retired from working at GM.

Like I said in a previous post, another physics teacher only taught physics on the side.  His real job was working with lasers and dermatology.

A calculus teacher I had was also an "actuary" and the semester I had him was his last because he was taking  over the training program at Allstate.

A woman teacher, she taught statistics, retired from Goodyear.

And a Mexican engineer I work with tutors physics at a downtown University.

This whole thing about professors living these weird, sinister and closeted lives divorced from the "real world" and who have no common sense is a complete fabrication from the right.  

I don't understand why the right continues to lie and slander everyone that actually does good for the nation, but they do it so much, I'm surprised when they don't.


----------



## Titanic Sailor (Aug 23, 2010)

> There are folks in universities and school systems who are conservative. They have to keep a low profile because of heavy politics against them. Outnumbered in government and educational systems. These are small government and fiscal conservatives.
> 
> A liberal is a nuclear powered, goody two shoes, opinionated, social conservative. They love massive government, massive taxation on the people, and restrictive laws. They are also completely against ANY government reform. The system is just fine for them, continue sending your checks to them. Most of today's changes in society and laws that equate to the highest prison population in history came from liberals.
> 
> ...



When has a conservative crew ever been in power anyways???? Not in our lifetimes. 

Why the focus on conservatives who have never existed?


----------



## jillian (Aug 23, 2010)

rdean said:


> jillian said:
> 
> 
> > lizzie said:
> ...



i know what you mean. my fave professor of mid-east politics is still one of the foremost experts on the subject in the country. and my constitutional law professor was one of the prosecutors at neuremberg.

no question that some are cloistered, but not the best of them.


----------



## rdean (Aug 23, 2010)

lizzie said:


> Dr.Traveler said:
> 
> 
> > I want to address something else too. Many on this board seem to think that academia is a "Borg mentality.".
> ...



And yet, our greatest centers for research and "producing" innovations in this country is from "universities".  Guess that wasn't a very good theory.


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## lizzie (Aug 23, 2010)

Okay, I get it. 

This is an example of stereotype (from the right of course):



rdean said:


> This whole thing about professors living these weird, sinister and closeted lives divorced from the "real world" and who have no common sense....


 

while this is not:



rdean said:


> I don't understand why the right continues to lie and slander everyone that actually does good for the nation, but they do it so much, I'm surprised when they don't.


----------



## rdean (Aug 23, 2010)

Titanic Sailor said:


> > There are folks in universities and school systems who are conservative. They have to keep a low profile because of heavy politics against them. Outnumbered in government and educational systems. These are small government and fiscal conservatives.
> >
> > A liberal is a nuclear powered, goody two shoes, opinionated, social conservative. They love massive government, massive taxation on the people, and restrictive laws. They are also completely against ANY government reform. The system is just fine for them, continue sending your checks to them. Most of today's changes in society and laws that equate to the highest prison population in history came from liberals.
> >
> ...



When people say "conservatives" are more charitable than "liberals", at first, it seems totally true.  When such statistics are gathered, they are always taken from "churches" and "food banks" and similar institutions.  But liberals give to the "National Endowment for the Arts" and create scholarships in rural areas, urban areas and military bases.

While conservatives feel superior for giving a man a loaf of bread, liberals "teach" that man how to make his own loaf of bread.  One of the distinctive differences between "conservative" and "liberal".


----------



## DiveCon (Aug 23, 2010)

rdean said:


> Titanic Sailor said:
> 
> 
> > > There are folks in universities and school systems who are conservative. They have to keep a low profile because of heavy politics against them. Outnumbered in government and educational systems. These are small government and fiscal conservatives.
> ...


BULLSHIT

but then you are known for posting bullshit


----------



## rdean (Aug 23, 2010)

lizzie said:


> Okay, I get it.
> 
> This is an example of stereotype (from the right of course):
> 
> ...




The truth is, "I DON'T understand why the right continues to lie and slander anyone that actually does good for the nation.  And they do it so much, I'm surprised when they don't.  Read what right wingers on this site write.  Watch Fox news.  Read about why Republicans have presented 42 amendments to the constitution in just the last 18 months and what they are for and who they are targeting.  

THEN come back and explain how I'm wrong.


----------



## lizzie (Aug 23, 2010)

I gotta know. What's a loaf of breast?


----------



## rdean (Aug 23, 2010)

DiveCon said:


> rdean said:
> 
> 
> > Titanic Sailor said:
> ...



Only by dipshits.


----------



## rdean (Aug 23, 2010)

lizzie said:


> I gotta know. What's a loaf of breast?



I love it when you guys do that.  Sneaky.


----------



## Quantum Windbag (Aug 23, 2010)

Dr.Traveler said:


> Not so much "instructing" the doers as enabling them.  After all the doers go to the university because they need/can use what they find there.  If the University had nothing to offer, the doers wouldn't be filling my classrooms.
> 
> And it isn't just students coming to take advantage of what the university has to offer.  Many of my colleagues across campus supplement their income working as consultants for local industry.  Local businesses help keep the campus open through donations.
> 
> I want to address something else too.  Many on this board seem to think that academia is a "Borg mentality.". The only reason it appears that way is because academia closes ranks quickly against outsiders.  It's pure survival.  The truth is there isn't a department on campus that isn't rife with disagreements on techniques, research, methodology, etc.  Academia is a haven for diverse ideas.  Closing ranks when attacked is how we protect that.



Which is why I keep talking about perception, and not trying to prove that my point of view is correct. I know some extremely liberal professors, but I also know some that are conservative, and a few that make Ron Paul look sane.



Dr.Traveler said:


> Sorry for any typos.  I'm typing this on my iPod touch, not an iPhone.  I can't get reception with AT&T.



Ever consider switching providers? It is legal to jailbreak your iPhone these days.


----------



## DiveCon (Aug 23, 2010)

rdean said:


> DiveCon said:
> 
> 
> > rdean said:
> ...


you shouldnt talk about yourself like that


----------



## lizzie (Aug 23, 2010)

rdean said:


> The truth is, "I DON'T understand why the right continues to lie and slander anyone that actually does good for the nation.


 
Well, it's a difficult situation because your perception of "good and bad for the nation" may be very different from mine. From my perspective, liberal social policies (in a fiscal sense) are going to take us into bankruptcy.  We are on an unsustainable path, and it's certainly not only liberals who have contributed, but they have done the lion's share so far. What do you consider good for the nation? 



rdean said:


> Read what right wingers on this site write.


 
It doesn't matter what rightwingers on this site write, nor what leftwingers write. What matters is what is happening. 



rdean said:


> THEN come back and explain how I'm wrong.


 
It's not my place to explain to you how you are wrong. Your opinion is just that, and my opinion is as well. We can discuss ideas, and I think it's a good exercise in trying to grow personally, but what we discuss is about as effective as wishes. What really matters is whether or not we, as a nation, are making decisions and living in a way that can sustain our nation's survival. On our current course, I doubt we can in the long term.


----------



## Quantum Windbag (Aug 23, 2010)

rdean said:


> jillian said:
> 
> 
> > George Costanza said:
> ...



Wow.

That was almost a rational and reasoned comment. Then you blew it by showing your bias.

You do know that the study that promoted this idea defined liberal in a way that you probably find offensive? 



> It defines "liberal" in terms of concern for genetically nonrelated  people and support for private resources that help those people. It does  not look at other factors that play into American political beliefs,  such as abortion, gun control and gay rights.



Liberalism, atheism, male sexual exclusivity linked to IQ - CNN.com

That means that the director of World View, a who is primarily concerned with bringing food and other help to people he has never met, and who are not related to him, would be defined as a liberal for the purposes of this study, even though he opposes abortion and gay rights, and might believe in the right of people to keep and bear arms. He also discriminates by insisting that everyone who works for him also be a Christian.

You should really examine the source and methods of things you agree with before you start tossing the parts you like around, you might find you are agreeing with your enemies by mistake.


----------



## daveman (Aug 24, 2010)

rdean said:


> When people say "conservatives" are more charitable than "liberals", at first, it seems totally true.  When such statistics are gathered, they are always taken from "churches" and "food banks" and similar institutions.


What do you think happens to the money once there?  You think they just sit on it?

No.  They help people with it.


rdean said:


> But liberals give to the "National Endowment for the Arts" and create scholarships in rural areas, urban areas and military bases.


Ahh, yes, the NEA, last refuge for mediocre artists who think bodily excretions are "art".  


rdean said:


> While conservatives feel superior for giving a man a loaf of bread, liberals "teach" that man how to make his own loaf of bread.  One of the distinctive differences between "conservative" and "liberal".


Utterly false.  Liberalism wants to make people dependent on government.  Conservatism wants people to take care of themselves.

If you have to lie to make your point, your point's not worth making.


----------



## Dr.Traveler (Aug 24, 2010)

I'd add that it seems like there's a fair number of folks posting that have no clue what tenure actually is about.

Tenure isn't job security for life.  It's a guarantee of due process when terminated.  Tenured faculty can still be summarily fired due to program closure or financial extingency.  Every institution has examples of faculty that "stopped working" after tenure and were fired.  Nearly every institution I have dealt with has yearly reviews for tenured faculty.  Promotion after tenure depends on continued work.

In short, it is far from a free ride.


----------



## midcan5 (Aug 24, 2010)

Broadly speaking, conservatism by definition is traditional; liberalism, tolerant and open to new ideas. Conservatives home-school or send their children to private schools for a reason. (The wealthy do too but that is a class issue.)  The reason conservatives dislike college and universities is they are broad minded and broad minded conflicts with narrow traditional ideas. Why no conservative simply says that is because ideally Americans are supposed to be open minded etc. Imagine a strict conservative coming home from college, and now understanding evolution, and believing it is science. The parents may go cuckoo. Or even worse suppose the child comes home agnostic. Ideas have power, conservatives recognize this well, their think tanks spew nonsense constantly, and calling colleges and media "liberal" is one constant charge. Of course they have had to make liberal a bad word too. 


"Objectivity cannot be equated with mental blankness; rather, objectivity resides in recognizing your preferences and then subjecting them to especially harsh scrutiny." Stephen Jay Gould


----------



## Dr.Traveler (Aug 24, 2010)

Quantum Windbag said:


> Dr.Traveler said:
> 
> 
> > Sorry for any typos.  I'm typing this on my iPod touch, not an iPhone.  I can't get reception with AT&T.
> ...



If I had an iPhone, I would have a long time ago.  I've found that with an iPod touch I can get access almost anywhere these days.  McDonalds has free wireless now.  It just isn't worth the data plan.


----------



## Dr.Traveler (Aug 24, 2010)

Titanic Sailor said:


> When has a conservative crew ever been in power anyways???? Not in our lifetimes.



And whose fault is that?

If Conservatives can't be bothered to vote for Conservatives, or to hold their candidates accountable, then why should we bother with them?


----------



## daveman (Aug 24, 2010)

midcan5 said:


> Broadly speaking, conservatism by definition is traditional; liberalism, tolerant and open to new ideas. Conservatives home-school or send their children to private schools for a reason. (The wealthy do too but that is a class issue.)  The reason conservatives dislike college and universities is they are broad minded and broad minded conflicts with narrow traditional ideas. Why no conservative simply says that is because ideally Americans are supposed to be open minded etc. Imagine a strict conservative coming home from college, and now understanding evolution, and believing it is science. The parents may go cuckoo. Or even worse suppose the child comes home agnostic. Ideas have power, conservatives recognize this well, their think tanks spew nonsense constantly, and calling colleges and media "liberal" is one constant charge. Of course they have had to make liberal a bad word too.
> 
> 
> "Objectivity cannot be equated with mental blankness; rather, objectivity resides in recognizing your preferences and then subjecting them to especially harsh scrutiny." Stephen Jay Gould


By definition, perhaps.  But liberalism in practice is intolerant.


----------



## Dr.Traveler (Aug 24, 2010)

daveman said:


> By definition, perhaps.  But liberalism in practice is intolerant.



Not my experience at all.  Conservatism, with a tendancy to favor what has gone before, has always been more intolerant to anything that amounts to change in my experience.


----------



## antagon (Aug 24, 2010)

lizzie said:


> antagon said:
> 
> 
> > lizzie said:
> ...



this has not been my experience.  i argue administrators are the isolated folks, if anything.  professors two-time in industry because they are the top in their field.  these thinkers are on boards directing american businesses and offering consultation and research to the 'doer' sector.

the person who came up with 'those who can't do, teach' might have gone to a shit university, if at all.  where i went to school, doers with a renown track-record were invited to teach -- to share what they had learned in application.


----------



## rdean (Aug 24, 2010)

daveman said:


> rdean said:
> 
> 
> > When people say "conservatives" are more charitable than "liberals", at first, it seems totally true.  When such statistics are gathered, they are always taken from "churches" and "food banks" and similar institutions.
> ...




That is strictly a conservative fantasy.  It's a false premise demonstrated by the fact the liberals push education and conservatives only have contempt for education.  If you were honest, you would admit that.


----------



## DiveCon (Aug 24, 2010)

rdean said:


> daveman said:
> 
> 
> > rdean said:
> ...


another lie by rdean


----------



## rdean (Aug 24, 2010)

daveman said:


> midcan5 said:
> 
> 
> > Broadly speaking, conservatism by definition is traditional; liberalism, tolerant and open to new ideas. Conservatives home-school or send their children to private schools for a reason. (The wealthy do too but that is a class issue.)  The reason conservatives dislike college and universities is they are broad minded and broad minded conflicts with narrow traditional ideas. Why no conservative simply says that is because ideally Americans are supposed to be open minded etc. Imagine a strict conservative coming home from college, and now understanding evolution, and believing it is science. The parents may go cuckoo. Or even worse suppose the child comes home agnostic. Ideas have power, conservatives recognize this well, their think tanks spew nonsense constantly, and calling colleges and media "liberal" is one constant charge. Of course they have had to make liberal a bad word too.
> ...



liberal is in fact both tolerant and diverse.  It has to be.  

Conservative Republicans are 90% white and mostly Christian.  They are neither tolerant nor diverse.  They don't have to be.  That is just the plain, unvarnished truth.  Sorry if you don't like it.


----------



## DiveCon (Aug 24, 2010)

rdean said:


> daveman said:
> 
> 
> > midcan5 said:
> ...


tell that to Joe Lieberman

and i have a news flash for you

America is mostly white and mostly christian


----------



## Quantum Windbag (Aug 24, 2010)

rdean said:


> That is strictly a conservative fantasy.  It's a false premise demonstrated by the fact the liberals push education and conservatives only have contempt for education.  If you were honest, you would admit that.



If liberals support education why have they not set up a program where everyone who receives welfare gets to go to the college of their choice? Why did they oppose the Welfare to Work program under Clinton?


----------



## Tech_Esq (Aug 24, 2010)

Dr.Traveler said:


> daveman said:
> 
> 
> > By definition, perhaps.  But liberalism in practice is intolerant.
> ...



Guess you haven't been in a university with the new speech codes in the last 20 years. The current occupants of the administration building are attempting to write the book on intolerance to a degree never imagined by their predecessors.


----------



## Tech_Esq (Aug 24, 2010)

Quantum Windbag said:


> rdean said:
> 
> 
> > That is strictly a conservative fantasy.  It's a false premise demonstrated by the fact the liberals push education and conservatives only have contempt for education.  If you were honest, you would admit that.
> ...



If you view all questions of education by these two razors, it will illuminate the supposed leftist support for education:

"Will the proposed bill have the effect of keeping or adding to more dues paying union members?"

"Will the proposed bill be a handout to some group that may become a new suckler at the teat of the government?" (see Pell grant and student loans in general)

If the answer is no to these questions, then the leftists are not for "that kind of support for education." 

A prime example is school choice, the Dems are against it even though their constituency (blacks) are for it. Even though this will tend to have the effect of lifting this group out of poverty over time, the Dems oppose it. Why? Because of what it will do to teachers.

The employee trumps the child.


----------



## daveman (Aug 24, 2010)

Dr.Traveler said:


> daveman said:
> 
> 
> > By definition, perhaps.  But liberalism in practice is intolerant.
> ...



I'll bet Joe Lieberman might have something to say about liberal tolerance.


----------



## daveman (Aug 24, 2010)

rdean said:


> daveman said:
> 
> 
> > rdean said:
> ...


I really don't know how you're posting here from your alternate universe.  Liberals want people dependent on government.  Their actions of the last 50 years prove it.


----------



## Quantum Windbag (Aug 24, 2010)

Tech_Esq said:


> Quantum Windbag said:
> 
> 
> > rdean said:
> ...



I know that, but taking a factual approach with rdean has never worked when I have done it in the past, so I thought I would try a "what if?" approach.


----------



## daveman (Aug 24, 2010)

rdean said:


> liberal is in fact both tolerant and diverse.  It has to be.


Yes, they have both Marxists AND Leninists.  



rdean said:


> Conservative Republicans are 90% white and mostly Christian.  They are neither tolerant nor diverse.  They don't have to be.  That is just the plain, unvarnished truth.  Sorry if you don't like it.


I guarantee you minorities are more accepted by conservatives than conservatives are by liberals.  

Yeah, you love everybody...as long as they think like you tell them to.


----------



## daveman (Aug 24, 2010)

DiveCon said:


> rdean said:
> 
> 
> > daveman said:
> ...


----------



## Tech_Esq (Aug 24, 2010)

antagon said:


> lizzie said:
> 
> 
> > antagon said:
> ...



That may be true for some universities and SOME professors at those universities, but the VAST, VAST, VAST majority of professors have one single job, being a university professor.

I can tell you that sitting in political science classes with these supposedly "tolerant" people was no picnic. They consistently attempted to mislead the poor students in their class and would try to tell them all manner of things if they were not called out for it. Calling them out was a process and a chore in itself. One had to ensure that you did not endanger your grade, so you had to be right and then you had to be able to prove it or you were made to look like an ass (an example, "don't step across the line or we'll squish you like a bug"). In my era, it was saying anything pro-Reagan. Oh it was like the lightening would strike from the heavens if that happened. The tolerant professors were thrown into fits of apoplexy.

I once had the temerity to suggest that it was Reagan's decisions that one the cold war. (The professor had been pontificating about how it would have happened in the normal course of events no matter who was in office at the time. Of course utter drivel.) Oh my god, you would have thought I suggested Karl Marx was a bad guy!! The professor sharply rebuked me. I answered back and eventually proved my point. (I did lose a letter grade in the class though, so sometimes winning isn't everything).

Tolerance indeed.


----------



## daveman (Aug 24, 2010)

Tech_Esq said:


> Quantum Windbag said:
> 
> 
> > rdean said:
> ...


Not only that, but poor blacks are much more likely to vote Democrat.

Can't have them getting ideas of their own, now.


----------



## Greenbeard (Aug 24, 2010)

Tech_Esq said:


> If you view all questions of education by these two razors, it will illuminate the supposed leftist support for education:
> 
> "Will the proposed bill have the effect of keeping or adding to more dues paying union members?"
> 
> ...



Today is a rather unfortunate day to try and make this point. Honestly, choosing the day the Race to the Top winners are announced to argue how Democratic education policy is designed to do the teachers unions' bidding?


----------



## rdean (Aug 24, 2010)

DiveCon said:


> rdean said:
> 
> 
> > daveman said:
> ...



Yes, but those Americans who are gay, lesbian, atheist, feminist,  educated and liberal aren't welcome in the "Party of White".  You know it.  I know it.  Why deny it?


----------



## DiveCon (Aug 24, 2010)

rdean said:


> DiveCon said:
> 
> 
> > rdean said:
> ...


more delusional lies by rdean


----------



## rdean (Aug 24, 2010)

DiveCon said:


> rdean said:
> 
> 
> > daveman said:
> ...



Joe Lieberman, one dipshit correcting another:

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fWf7w--TwyU]YouTube - John McCain: Iran training Al-Qaeda, Oh, I mean extremists[/ame]


----------



## rdean (Aug 24, 2010)

DiveCon said:


> rdean said:
> 
> 
> > DiveCon said:
> ...



Wait a second, are you saying that "gay, lesbian, atheist, feminist,  educated and liberals" ARE WELCOME in the Republican Party?


----------



## Tech_Esq (Aug 24, 2010)

Greenbeard said:


> Tech_Esq said:
> 
> 
> > If you view all questions of education by these two razors, it will illuminate the supposed leftist support for education:
> ...



I suggest you not buy the hype and use my two razors to review these "awards"


----------



## DiveCon (Aug 24, 2010)

rdean said:


> DiveCon said:
> 
> 
> > rdean said:
> ...


yes, they are
that leaves YOU out


----------



## Titanic Sailor (Aug 24, 2010)

I would say liberal salaries are making sure millions of kids will never be taught by liberals, only the children of the rich, liberal elite. 

rdean, excuses that don't work. I swear to God, he said liberals teach people how to make bread.........


----------



## daveman (Aug 24, 2010)

rdean said:


> DiveCon said:
> 
> 
> > rdean said:
> ...



Log Cabin Republicans - Home
Gay Republicans
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There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, 
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.


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## rdean (Aug 24, 2010)

daveman said:


> rdean said:
> 
> 
> > DiveCon said:
> ...



Atheists are welcome?  You might want to review that link.  Some comments:

And yeah. Going to mass is just SO much more fun than going out and enjoying life. No wonder Christians are always so interesting. (pfft.)

Because it requires no morality:

Atheism leads to hell.

Why do atheists hate the outdoors, and then sparkle when exposed to the sun?

Urrgh, such foul creatures. Why did my father even created you? Repent now and obey my every command, or else oblivion awaits.

Because they are a trick of the devil!

------------------------------

You can bet, it wasn't "liberals" or "Democrats" making these comments.

------------------------------

The Texas Supreme Court ruled that the state GOP does not have to provide exhibit space to a gay Republican group at the party's state convention. The court unanimously overturned a lower court ruling that ordered state Republicans to accommodate the Log Cabin Republicans of Texas at the convention, which opened Thursday and runs through Saturday. Party officials had argued they have the right to determine what can be exhibited at their conventions. 

Articles about Log Cabin Republicans - Orlando Sentinel

NEW YORK -- A Republican gay-rights group uses images of former President Reagan and former New York City Mayor Rudy Giuliani in a new ad to counter what it calls "shameful and outrageous" language against same-sex unions in the party's platform. 

---------------------------------------------

This is a complaint I've had before.  Do Republicans READ their links?  I wonder if I should go through the rest of them?  No wonder they so rarely post links.


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## rdean (Aug 24, 2010)

DiveCon said:


> rdean said:
> 
> 
> > DiveCon said:
> ...



Yea right. 

Next, you'll be telling me Hispanics and Muslims are welcome into the Republican Party.


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## DiveCon (Aug 24, 2010)

rdean said:


> DiveCon said:
> 
> 
> > rdean said:
> ...


they are
but we are trying to keep morons like you out


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## daveman (Aug 24, 2010)

rdean said:


> daveman said:
> 
> 
> > rdean said:
> ...


I don't think YOU read the links.  

Any ideas that contradict your own prejudices must be immediately dismissed.  And all that proves is you're a bigot.


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## asterism (Aug 24, 2010)

midcan5 said:


> Broadly speaking, conservatism by definition is traditional; liberalism, tolerant and open to new ideas. Conservatives home-school or send their children to private schools for a reason. (The wealthy do too but that is a class issue.)  The reason conservatives dislike college and universities is they are broad minded and broad minded conflicts with narrow traditional ideas. Why no conservative simply says that is because ideally Americans are supposed to be open minded etc. Imagine a strict conservative coming home from college, and now understanding evolution, and believing it is science. The parents may go cuckoo. Or even worse suppose the child comes home agnostic. Ideas have power, conservatives recognize this well, their think tanks spew nonsense constantly, and calling colleges and media "liberal" is one constant charge. Of course they have had to make liberal a bad word too.
> 
> 
> "Objectivity cannot be equated with mental blankness; rather, objectivity resides in recognizing your preferences and then subjecting them to especially harsh scrutiny." Stephen Jay Gould



Wow!  That's a whole lotta bullshit right there.

My Father was quite receptive to my agnostic period.  I hoped he would just set me straight, but he told me that it was up to me and that I needed to figure it out for myself.  20 years later, I understand the wisdom of his perspective.  I didn't need to go to college to understand evolution, that was 8th grade Earth Science.  Dad agreed also, and added one interesting caveat:  "If God wanted to make everything appear as such, he could."

As a conservative, I educate my kids to find out for themselves.  I give them my opinion and let them know that it's just my opinion.  I strive to give them the tools they need to sort though the bullshit and get the hard facts.  As a person with strong faith, I don't think God would expect any less actually.


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## Titanic Sailor (Aug 24, 2010)

rdean, are you trying to tell us blacks and Mexicans are not welcome in the Republican Party? Your propaganda knows NO shame, and obviously no bounds.

Please, explain.

Ever notice how it's the racists like rdean always calling everyone else a racist? Appalling........


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## jillian (Aug 24, 2010)

Titanic Sailor said:


> rdean, are you trying to tell us blacks and Mexicans are not welcome in the Republican Party? Your propaganda knows NO shame, and obviously no bounds.
> 
> Please, explain.
> 
> Ever notice how it's the racists like rdean always calling everyone else a racist? Appalling........



raflmao


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## Modbert (Aug 24, 2010)

Titanic Sailor said:


> Ever notice how it's the racists like rdean always calling everyone else a racist? Appalling........



Says the guy who called Obama a racist and then used probably the most common slur used against African Americans.


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## Titanic Sailor (Aug 25, 2010)

I definitely feel African Americans are extremely racist unfortunately, just like many liberals. The trigger word you speak of unleashes black racism. 

I think rdean's and black racism needs to be challenged. 

I think racists suck.


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## jillian (Aug 25, 2010)

Titanic Sailor said:


> I think racists suck.



so stop being one.


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## Titanic Sailor (Aug 25, 2010)

Nice try. Dance around my assertion if you must.


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## Ravi (Aug 25, 2010)

George Costanza said:


> A common cry of many conservatives is that, in general, our institutions of higher learning in this country (colleges, universities, etc.) are "liberal."  They teach "liberal concepts," they cater to liberals, all of the professors are liberals, and so forth.  Let's assume, for sake of argument, that this is correct - that our colleges and universities are, for the most part, liberal.
> 
> What is it about our colleges and universities that makes them liberal, in your opinion and why do you think they became so, as opposed to leaning more toward conservative thought?


It's simple, really.

Liberal: *:* broad-minded;  _especially_ *:* not bound by authoritarianism,  orthodoxy, or traditional forms 

Conservative:  _a_ *:* tending  or disposed to maintain existing views, conditions, or institutions *:* traditional 

Liberalism lends itself to learning, exploring, and understanding. Conservatism lends itself to repeating the past.


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## Titanic Sailor (Aug 25, 2010)

Exactly, a liberal has no idea how to fix anything because they are allergic to the accepted practice of work. If a liberal owns it, it will either rot, or they will call a conservative to clean up their mess. And a conservative will, for the good of the many.


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## bodecea (Aug 25, 2010)

Titanic Sailor said:


> Exactly, a liberal has no idea how to fix anything because they are allergic to the accepted practice of work. If a liberal owns it, it will either rot, or they will call a conservative to clean up their mess. And a conservative will, for the good of the many.



So, all repairmen are conservatives?   I want to see something that tracks that.


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## George Costanza (Aug 25, 2010)

daveman said:


> midcan5 said:
> 
> 
> > Broadly speaking, conservatism by definition is traditional; liberalism, tolerant and open to new ideas. Conservatives home-school or send their children to private schools for a reason. (The wealthy do too but that is a class issue.)  The reason conservatives dislike college and universities is they are broad minded and broad minded conflicts with narrow traditional ideas. Why no conservative simply says that is because ideally Americans are supposed to be open minded etc. Imagine a strict conservative coming home from college, and now understanding evolution, and believing it is science. The parents may go cuckoo. Or even worse suppose the child comes home agnostic. Ideas have power, conservatives recognize this well, their think tanks spew nonsense constantly, and calling colleges and media "liberal" is one constant charge. Of course they have had to make liberal a bad word too.
> ...



No, it's not.  It's just contrary to what you believe.


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## Dr.Traveler (Aug 25, 2010)

daveman said:


> Dr.Traveler said:
> 
> 
> > daveman said:
> ...



I bet a great many of the folks that have been labelled RINOs and targetted by Rush, Sean, Anne, Glenn, etc. would have a lot ot say about the tolerance of Conservatives.  How is that any different?

Neat thing about Freedom of Speech is that it isn't freedom from Consequence.  I can defend Joe's right to say what he wants about his own party without the need to vote for him.  Both Joe and Zell excersied their rights and complained about the consequences.

I can tolerate your views, I can support your rights, and I can act to ensure your freedom without having to agree with you, vote for you, or shield you from consequences.

This goes along with how things are in Academia.  I can violently disagree with my colleagues, their methodology, and their conclusions.  At the end of the day I'll support their ability to keep researching though.

That at the end of the day is tolerance.  It isn't blind agreement.  It isn't even liking your views.  Its supporting the fact you can be different.


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## daveman (Aug 25, 2010)

George Costanza said:


> daveman said:
> 
> 
> > midcan5 said:
> ...


No, it's intolerant.  That's contrary to what you believe.


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## daveman (Aug 25, 2010)

Dr.Traveler said:


> daveman said:
> 
> 
> > Dr.Traveler said:
> ...


I agree completely.


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## antagon (Aug 25, 2010)

i think presuming all liberals and all conservatives are one way or another is the issue in this thread.  the only conservatives taking issue with education are the very furthest right and uneducated ones in my opinion.  while conservatism has become more extreme and stupid over the last 25 years, this does not include those who are in education or who are educated or who appreciate the value of education, but who also value conservatism.  similarly, there are many, many liberals who are scarely educated and hold prejudices against people who are educated and the systems which educated them.

on this topic, there's more in common between idiots of either persuasion than there is along strictly partisan lines.


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## Titanic Sailor (Aug 25, 2010)

> Intel CEO: "Jobs will not be created here" and says Obama's to blame.
> "Unless government policies are altered, he predicted, "the next big thing will not be invented here. Jobs will not be created here."
> 
> 
> ...



Gee, who knew...........


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