# US Calls Turkish Actions 'Genocide'; Turks Outraged



## &#9773;proletarian&#9773; (Mar 5, 2010)

> Turkey has recalled its ambassador from the US  and condemned a Washington panel's move to declare the killing of  Armenians by Ottoman forces in the first world war a "genocide".
> "We condemn this resolution which accuses the Turkish nation of a  crime it has not committed," Ankara said in a statement on Thursday.
> "Following this development, our ambassador to  Washington, Namik Tan, was recalled to Ankara for consultations."
> The announcement came minutes after the US House of Representatives'  Foreign Affairs Committee passed a non-binding measure in a 23-22 vote  on Thursday, calling on the Obama administration to ensure US policy  formally refers to the 1915 mass killings of Armenians as genocide.



Al Jazeera English - Europe - Turkey condemns US 'genocide' vote


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## ekrem (Mar 5, 2010)

*US administration to block vote on Turkey 'genocide'*

The Obama administration has said it will seek to block a controversial bill describing as genocide the World War I killing of Armenians by Turks.
BBC News - US administration to block vote on Turkey 'genocide'

---------------------
Suat Kiniklioglu, the influential deputy chairman for external affairs in the ruling Justice and Development party (AKP), warned of "major consequences" if the resolution was accepted by the full House of Representatives.

*"If they choose to bring this to the floor they will have to face the fact that the consequences would be serious &#8211; the relationship would be downgraded at every level," he said. "Everything from Afghanistan to Pakistan to Iraq to the Middle East process would be affected.
*

Turkey threatens 'serious consequences' after US vote on Armenian genocide | World news | The Guardian


I think Turkey will downgrade relations and cooperations in some of the areas we are working with USA. A sort of punishment for consuming our energy every f* year.
You have to learn, that this is not a business of yours and you will remember next year.
First thing without taking greater risk in foreign policy is abandoning Incirlik for US use. 
Nationalize Incirlik. Maybe that will fund your election campaigns or secure you American-Armenian votes.


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## hjmick (Mar 5, 2010)

So Turkey got their feathers ruffled. No surprise.


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## ekrem (Mar 5, 2010)

hjmick said:


> So Turkey got their feathers ruffled. No surprise.



Very funny. 
There are 2 questions:
1. How nasty USA wants to play
2. How strong Turkey really is. 

US interests loose anyway. Make no doubt about that.


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## ekrem (Mar 6, 2010)

He promised as Senator, but "he can't".


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## Dr Grump (Mar 6, 2010)

Only the Turks don't think it was a genocide. They need to suck it up and grow the fuck up. Then again, they're Muslims - admitting you're wrong isn't in their vocabulary...


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## RadiomanATL (Mar 6, 2010)

Unavailable for comment:


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## JakeStarkey (Mar 6, 2010)

Yeah, it was genocide, and, no, Turkey is not as strong as it thinks it is.


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## ekrem (Mar 6, 2010)

Who is without sins, throw the first stone.



JakeStarkey said:


> Yeah, it was genocide, and, no, Turkey is not as strong as it thinks it is.



Official: Armenian genocide resolution unlikely to get full House vote - CNN.com

Some Americans, like you, are so cute.


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## ekrem (Mar 6, 2010)

Barking posers for Armenian-Americans in election districts of California.


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## Si modo (Mar 6, 2010)

JakeStarkey said:


> Yeah, it was genocide, and, no, Turkey is not as strong as it thinks it is.


I would be a fool if I underestimated Turkey's influence and standing in that part of the world.

It was genocide.  The last time this was up for a vote, it was voted down so as not to piss of an ally.  But, it was genocide.  If the truth pisses off, as we see it does to our resident Muslims, too fucking bad.  There is nothing binding in the resolution, but it's an embarrassment to the Turks, I guess.  Funny thing is, folks in that part of the world have issues with doing the right thing and accepting responsibility for their actions.  The Germans have been honorable and accepted responsibility for their history and set a good example of what to do when that happens.


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## theDoctorisIn (Mar 6, 2010)

About damn time, if they actually do it.


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## JakeStarkey (Mar 6, 2010)

The USA was able to ignore Turkey in March 2003 and still invade Iraq successfully.  Thus we owe Turkey nothing.  And, yes, it was genocide.  The definition of "the deliberate and systematic destruction of a racial, political, or cultural group" clearly defines the history of Turkey and the minority group from 1911 to 1916.  I have liked most of the Turks I have met, but they are xenophobic second only to the Japanese, in my opinion.  I hope the resolution passes and have been disappointed in administrations in the past's waffling on the matter.


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## SFC Ollie (Mar 6, 2010)

Whether it was genocide or not it was also nearly 100 years ago. Doesn't our government have more important things to do than to accuse a bunch of dead people of genocide? 

Turkey is one of our oldest allies in the area, at least since the end of WW2. What are these idiots in Washington doing wasting time pissing off an Allie? Of course Turkey could just come back and pass their own resolution or ask for one at the UN condemning the USA for genocide of the American Indian.


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## Si modo (Mar 6, 2010)

SFC Ollie said:


> Whether it was genocide or not it was also nearly 100 years ago. Doesn't our government have more important things to do than to accuse a bunch of dead people of genocide?
> 
> Turkey is one of our oldest allies in the area, at least since the end of WW2. What are these idiots in Washington doing wasting time pissing off an Allie? Of course Turkey could just come back and pass their own resolution or ask for one at the UN condemning the USA for genocide of the American Indian.


Yup.  And, I doubt much of a ruckus would be made on our end if they did.

On one hand, we did the right thing.  On the other hand I have to ask to what end?


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## theDoctorisIn (Mar 6, 2010)

SFC Ollie said:


> Whether it was genocide or not it was also nearly 100 years ago. Doesn't our government have more important things to do than to accuse a bunch of dead people of genocide?
> 
> Turkey is one of our oldest allies in the area, at least since the end of WW2. What are these idiots in Washington doing wasting time pissing off an Allie? Of course Turkey could just come back and pass their own resolution or ask for one at the UN condemning the USA for genocide of the American Indian.



But they did it. I'm not in favor of insulting the memories of the thousands of dead Armenians by continuing to not acknowledge it.


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## dilloduck (Mar 6, 2010)

I don't see the importance of labeling the murder of Armenians as genocide. Will is serve any purpose or change anything for the better ? I'll warrant 95% of Amercans don't even know of the murders and even less know the details.


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## theDoctorisIn (Mar 6, 2010)

dilloduck said:


> I don't see the importance of labeling the murder of Armenians as genocide. Will is serve any purpose or change anything for the better ? I'll warrant 95% of Amercans don't even know of the murders and even less know the details.



I think that's kinda the point, isn't it? Shouldn't this be something that's taught in school?


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## SFC Ollie (Mar 6, 2010)

dilloduck said:


> I don't see the importance of labeling the murder of Armenians as genocide. Will is serve any purpose or change anything for the better ? I'll warrant 95% of Amercans don't even know of the murders and even less know the details.



Exactly!


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## dilloduck (Mar 6, 2010)

theDoctorisIn said:


> dilloduck said:
> 
> 
> > I don't see the importance of labeling the murder of Armenians as genocide. Will is serve any purpose or change anything for the better ? I'll warrant 95% of Amercans don't even know of the murders and even less know the details.
> ...



College world history or some obscure middle eastern politics class. American kids aleady are seriousy lacking in the basic skill sets to even make a living.


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## SFC Ollie (Mar 6, 2010)

dilloduck said:


> theDoctorisIn said:
> 
> 
> > dilloduck said:
> ...



Our HS Students can't even get all the way through American History completely.


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## &#9773;proletarian&#9773; (Mar 7, 2010)

Dr Grump said:


> Only the Turks don't think it was a genocide. They need to suck it up and grow the fuck up. Then again, they're Muslims - admitting you're wrong isn't in their vocabulary...


Does America admit to the genocide against the natives during 'manifest destiny'?


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## Xenophon (Mar 7, 2010)

*Who, after all, speaks to-day of the annihilation of the Armenians?*..._Adolph Hitler, who knew plenty about genocides..._


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## SFC Ollie (Mar 7, 2010)

&#9773;proletarian&#9773;;2071352 said:
			
		

> Dr Grump said:
> 
> 
> > Only the Turks don't think it was a genocide. They need to suck it up and grow the fuck up. Then again, they're Muslims - admitting you're wrong isn't in their vocabulary...
> ...



Of course not.


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## ekrem (Mar 7, 2010)

Xenophon said:


> *Who, after all, speaks to-day of the annihilation of the Armenians?*..._Adolph Hitler, who knew plenty about genocides..._



The authenticity of the quote has been disputed.
It is claimed that he referred to the Armenians in the manner cited above, while delivering a secret talk to members of his General Staff, a week prior to his attack on Poland. However, *there is no reference to the Armenians* in the original texts of the two Hitler speeches delivered on August 22, 1939, published as the *official texts in the reliable Nuremberg documents. *
Wikipedia
Armenian quote - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Propaganda for those who do not know facts. "Hitler" is a magic word these days. 
Everything in the same sentence with Hitler is being tied to Hitler's evil.


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## ekrem (Mar 15, 2010)

NY Times, November 3rd *1914*

It opens as PDF:
http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?_r=1&res=9B03E0DC1738E633A25750C1A9679D946596D6CF


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## ekrem (Mar 15, 2010)

Here the Headline from NYTimes of 1914:
It is linked above in PDF-Format.


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## ekrem (Mar 15, 2010)

Now the point is this:
If a "commission" or something is going to inspect the incidents of 1915 in its historical and regional context, then Turkey will accept the findings of those commission. The incidents must be brought to light in full-context of WW1 and Russian invasion of East Turkey and Ottoman Armenian's role in the siege of East Anatolian cities. 

Otherwise Turkey will not accept anything. Because without the context things stand without causality. And then things stand as if the collapsing Ottomans did not have any other problems then genocide Armenians, Hitler style.


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## Tommy Lucchese (Mar 15, 2010)

ekrem said:


> Barking posers for Armenian-Americans in election districts of California.



The Armenian genocide by the Turks was on the same scale as the Holocaust.

Fuck them if they don't like it. They did their best to exterminate the Kurds, er excuse me "Mountain Turks," for the last fifty years too.


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## ekrem (Mar 15, 2010)

Tommy Lucchese said:


> ekrem said:
> 
> 
> > Barking posers for Armenian-Americans in election districts of California.
> ...



You have a parliament, we have too. 
And, you do not have a white history. 
If this becomes practice the "Western World" will loose the most as the "Western Worlds" history is the most far from white.


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## Tommy Lucchese (Mar 15, 2010)

ekrem said:


> Tommy Lucchese said:
> 
> 
> > ekrem said:
> ...



Believe me, I'm not one of those America does no wrong types, we have a very checkered past and we rightfully get condemned for massacring Amerindians, "Christianizing" the already Catholic Filipinos, stuff like that.

I have no problem pointing out my country's faults, so I certainly have no problem pointing out Turkey's.

In fairness, it was the Ottomans and you're not the government anymore, but the post-Ataturk record with Kurds is not great either.


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## del (Mar 15, 2010)

ekrem said:


> Now the point is this:
> If a "commission" or something is going to inspect the incidents of 1915 in its historical and regional context, then Turkey will accept the findings of those commission. The incidents must be brought to light in full-context of WW1 and Russian invasion of East Turkey and Ottoman Armenian's role in the siege of East Anatolian cities.
> 
> Otherwise Turkey will not accept anything. Because without the context things stand without causality. And then things stand as if the collapsing Ottomans did not have any other problems then genocide Armenians, Hitler style.



so as long as you're multitasking, genocide is cool?

got it.


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## beowolfe (Mar 15, 2010)

We should have done this a long time ago.  If we had, they'd be over it by now.


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## ekrem (Mar 15, 2010)

del said:


> so as long as you're multitasking, genocide is cool?
> 
> got it.




I would interpret the whole incidents of 1915 as pre-modern Anti-Terrorism measures. 
Eastern Anatolia was war zone. Ottomans were in constant war-state before WW1 already, loosing territories. 
Armenians wanted what the Balkan nations achieved: Independence. 
So Ottoman Armenians living within the borders of Ottomans aligned with the invading Russians in Eastern Anatolia, which at the same time were Orthodox brethren. 

Ottomans relocated Armenians away from the war-zone in Eastern Anatolia into Syrian desert. A pure need-based decision in the ongoing Russian-Turkish conflict.  

This has nothing to do with "Hitler style" genocide. The whole "Armenian Genocide" thing is being portrayed as if Turks one day woke out of sleep with the idea to relocate Armenians just for fun. We will not accept anything that is being portrayed as such.


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## ekrem (Mar 15, 2010)

beowolfe said:


> We should have done this a long time ago.  If we had, they'd be over it by now.



Please do. 
If this happens it will be the single most damaging development in US-Turkish relations since we have having diplomatic relations. 
Armenians lost their war of independence and that must hurt. There is no reason introducing a concept of hurt/pain in diplomatic relations of US-Turkey. 
You dream big time when you think we will sit by like a penetrated bitch.


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## ekrem (Mar 15, 2010)

0:25

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V30tyaXv6EI]YouTube - Conan the Barbarian - What is best in life?[/ame]


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## Old Rocks (Mar 15, 2010)

History forgotten or ignored, is history repeated.


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## Neser Boha (Mar 15, 2010)

ekrem said:


> Now the point is this:
> If a "commission" or something is going to inspect the incidents of 1915 in its historical and regional context, then Turkey will accept the findings of those commission. The incidents must be brought to light in full-context of WW1 and Russian invasion of East Turkey and Ottoman Armenian's role in the siege of East Anatolian cities.
> 
> Otherwise Turkey will not accept anything. Because without the context things stand without causality. And then things stand as if the collapsing Ottomans did not have any other problems then genocide Armenians, Hitler style.



I have to agree that context is quite important.  After WWII almost entire German population was expelled from the Czech lands as they were seen by the Czechs as 'Hitler's 5th colony' (some of them helped Hitler and Nazis and some of they became Nazi supporters during WWII, but of course not ALL of them) ... and it was not pretty.  Some women were raped en masse and it also didn't take place without some murders, etc.  Was it wrong?  Of course!  Can you blame the Czechs for doing it?  Not really, were you there and were you in their shoes, some of you would probably take a part after being occupied and treated like an 'inferior race' for some years by ze Krauts.  Btw, what I'm referring to is called 'Benes decrees' and EU is, btw, fine with it (or doesn't really express itself on it.

War is a disgusting thing and especially when the victims gain the upper hand once again, all sorts of crazy revengeful shit will go down (remember treatment of French women that slept with Nazi soldiers after WW2 or all kinds of collaborators? Some nasty shit, but ... still somewhat understandable despite being morally wrong.)  

Therefore, I would also like to see it presented IN the context and judged with the context in mind.  I really don't know that much about it, but no matter what, context is always important and sometimes throws a very different light on things.


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## ekrem (Mar 16, 2010)

Old Rocks said:


> History forgotten or ignored, is history repeated.



We wont forget. 
With "embedded journalism" the genocide of Iraq is well documented audio-visually.
You really think you are a moral compass?


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## RetiredGySgt (Mar 16, 2010)

&#9773;proletarian&#9773;;2065102 said:
			
		

> > Turkey has recalled its ambassador from the US  and condemned a Washington panel's move to declare the killing of  Armenians by Ottoman forces in the first world war a "genocide".
> > "We condemn this resolution which accuses the Turkish nation of a  crime it has not committed," Ankara said in a statement on Thursday.
> > "Following this development, our ambassador to  Washington, Namik Tan, was recalled to Ankara for consultations."
> > The announcement came minutes after the US House of Representatives'  Foreign Affairs Committee passed a non-binding measure in a 23-22 vote  on Thursday, calling on the Obama administration to ensure US policy  formally refers to the 1915 mass killings of Armenians as genocide.
> ...



I do not know why Turkey cares, nor we, Ottoman Empire was and is NOT Turkey. It no LONGER exists.


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## RetiredGySgt (Mar 16, 2010)

JakeStarkey said:


> The USA was able to ignore Turkey in March 2003 and still invade Iraq successfully.  Thus we owe Turkey nothing.  And, yes, it was genocide.  The definition of "the deliberate and systematic destruction of a racial, political, or cultural group" clearly defines the history of Turkey and the minority group from 1911 to 1916.  I have liked most of the Turks I have met, but they are xenophobic second only to the Japanese, in my opinion.  I hope the resolution passes and have been disappointed in administrations in the past's waffling on the matter.



Turkey did not exist during that time frame.


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## RetiredGySgt (Mar 16, 2010)

&#9773;proletarian&#9773;;2071352 said:
			
		

> Dr Grump said:
> 
> 
> > Only the Turks don't think it was a genocide. They need to suck it up and grow the fuck up. Then again, they're Muslims - admitting you're wrong isn't in their vocabulary...
> ...



Yes. In fact we used to teach it before liberals removed history from Middle school.


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## &#9773;proletarian&#9773; (Mar 16, 2010)

RetiredGySgt said:


> &#9773;proletarian&#9773;;2071352 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I thought you said it was the blame-america-firster liberals who wanted to teach all the bad things America did and make this nation look bad because they, being progressive communo-fascist nazi hippies, hate freedom and all America stands for?


Will you people make up your damned minds?


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## Tommy Lucchese (Mar 16, 2010)

RetiredGySgt said:


> JakeStarkey said:
> 
> 
> > The USA was able to ignore Turkey in March 2003 and still invade Iraq successfully.  Thus we owe Turkey nothing.  And, yes, it was genocide.  The definition of "the deliberate and systematic destruction of a racial, political, or cultural group" clearly defines the history of Turkey and the minority group from 1911 to 1916.  I have liked most of the Turks I have met, but they are xenophobic second only to the Japanese, in my opinion.  I hope the resolution passes and have been disappointed in administrations in the past's waffling on the matter.
> ...



We can talk about Turkey's attempts to exterminate the Kurds in the post-Ataturk era if you want; when Saddam did it I was told that it was a Very Bad Thing.


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## JakeStarkey (Mar 16, 2010)

RetiredGySgt said:


> &#9773;proletarian&#9773;;2071352 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yes, it is taught today, RGS.  Sheesh.


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## CurveLight (Mar 16, 2010)

JakeStarkey said:


> The USA was able to ignore Turkey in March 2003 and still invade Iraq successfully.  Thus we owe Turkey nothing.  And, yes, it was genocide.  The definition of "the deliberate and systematic destruction of a racial, political, or cultural group" clearly defines the history of Turkey and the minority group from 1911 to 1916.  I have liked most of the Turks I have met, but they are xenophobic second only to the Japanese, in my opinion.  I hope the resolution passes and have been disappointed in administrations in the past's waffling on the matter.




Thass backwards.  Turkey was able to ignore the US even after we tried to bribe them with over $25 million.


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## CurveLight (Mar 16, 2010)

theDoctorisIn said:


> dilloduck said:
> 
> 
> > I don't see the importance of labeling the murder of Armenians as genocide. Will is serve any purpose or change anything for the better ? I'll warrant 95% of Amercans don't even know of the murders and even less know the details.
> ...




It should be combined with America's genocide in Iraq.  Oh shit, sorry.  When America commits mass murders it's called a friendly early appointment with God.


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## ekrem (Mar 16, 2010)

Turkish Prime Minister says, that there are about 100.000 illegal Armenians (mainly women nanny) in Turkey. 
Prime Minister also says, that as a good-will gesture Turkish Authorities have closed their eyes on these Armenian illegals, but now might get kicked out. 

Erdoðan: Kaçak Ermeni iþçileri sýnýr dýþý edebiliriz - Hürriyet

According to WHO, the poverty line in Armenia is *26 $* a month. It is projected that 1/3 of Armenia's population will fall under that *26 $* line. 
WHO | Armenians struggle for health care and medicines


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## ekrem (Mar 16, 2010)

Economists predict that opening the border will give a huge boost to the Armenian economy, which has badly suffered from the country's long isolation and has been among those hardest hit by the global economic crisis.

Turkey closed the border in 1993 in solidarity with ally Azerbaijan over Yerevan's backing of ethnic Armenian separatists in the disputed Nagorny Karabakh region. The border with Azerbaijan is also closed.
(...)* the IMF expects* that transportation *costs for exporting Armenian goods will decrease by 10-20 percent after the border opens*, making Armenian companies more competitive internationally and giving a major boost to trade.
(...)*
Martin Sarkisian, the head of Armenia's Chamber of Commerce and Industry, said he expects the amount of Armenian exports to grow exponentially after the border opens, and not only to Turkey. *
Armenians see crucial economic boost from Turkey ties

---------------------------

*Armenians Lick Lips at Prospect of Turkish Trade*
Armenians Lick Lips at Prospect of Turkish Trade

Now, through Lobby Bitching by the Armenian Diaspora the mainland Armenians can wait for the borders to open. As stated above, Prime Minister of Turkey even says that 100.000 illegal Armenian workers might get kicked out of Turkey.


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## Modbert (Mar 16, 2010)

Without reading the thread, I'm wondering if anyone has brought up that the word Genocide was coined when talking about this specific action by the Turks? 

So by definition, this would be genocide.


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## ekrem (Mar 16, 2010)

&#8220;A significant *growth in the economy* is expected, with an* increase in the volume of exports* and a *growth in investment*, as well as an *improvement in the population&#8217;s living conditions*,&#8221; said Mark Lewis, the head of the *International Monetary Fund*&#8217;s mission in Yerevan.
Armenians Lick Lips at Prospect of Turkish Trade

Rather bitching in foreign parliaments, The Armenian Diaspora should send some Dollar to mainland Armenia. 
Borders with Turkey wont open thanks to them.


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## ekrem (Mar 16, 2010)

Turkey.
Imports: 	$204.8 billion

Armenia.
Exports:  $1.2 billion 


Economy of Turkey - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Economy of Armenia - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## ekrem (Mar 16, 2010)

As the world is a jungle, and the cheetah does not bite the lion....

All implemented *without* Armenia:

Kars?Tbilisi?Baku railway - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Baku?Tbilisi?Ceyhan pipeline - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
South Caucasus Pipeline - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Future projects also *without* Armenia:
Nabucco pipeline - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Trans-Caspian Gas Pipeline - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


While the region integrates, Armenian Diaspora dreams a dream of 1915. 
Let them sleep.


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## actsnoblemartin (Mar 16, 2010)

its about time turkey pulls its head out of its ass, willingly or not.


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## ekrem (Mar 16, 2010)

Turkeys prime minister has signaled that he is unlikely to participate in the international energy summit U.S. President Barack Obama will host in April.
Washington trip unlikely, PM signals - Hurriyet Daily News and Economic Review

Recep Tayyib Erdogan: 
If its necessary well deport 100.000 Armenian *illegal* immigrants
APA - Recep Tayyib Erdogan: If it?s necessary we?ll deport 100.000 Armenian illegal immigrants


Turkey's trade minister has canceled a trip to the United States 
Turkish minister cancels US trip following House panel vote - Hurriyet Daily News and Economic Review


Turkey is also temporarily in Security Council. 
In this regard to possible Iran sanctions, todays statement:

*Iran nuclear programme 'solely civilian' - Turkish PM *
Trend News: Iran nuclear programme 'solely civilian' - Turkish PM


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## Kalam (Mar 16, 2010)

Turkey and the United States are both extremely foolish to focus so heavily on an event that occurred over a century ago. The US should be more pragmatic regarding its relations with Turkey, and Turkey should grow a pair and quit whining when it's pointed out that some sort of genocide occurred.


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## ekrem (Mar 16, 2010)

Kalam said:


> Turkey and the United States are both extremely foolish to focus so heavily on an event that occurred over a century ago. The US should be more pragmatic regarding its relations with Turkey, and Turkey should grow a pair and quit whining when it's pointed out that some sort of genocide occurred.



We do not whine.
Our position is clear: "Do if you think you can". 


Its foreign minister, Ahmet Davutoglu (...) said that describing the 1915 Armenian killings as genocide was an *insult to Turkey's "honour"*.
(...)
Suat Kiniklioglu, the influential deputy chairman for external affairs in the ruling Justice and Development party (AKP) (...)
"If they choose to bring this to the floor they will have to face the fact that the *consequences would be serious*  the *relationship would be downgraded at every level,*" he said. "*Everything from Afghanistan to Pakistan to Iraq to the Middle East process would be affected*.

Turkey threatens 'serious consequences' after US vote on Armenian genocide | World news | The Guardian


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## Kalam (Mar 16, 2010)

ekrem said:


> Kalam said:
> 
> 
> > Turkey and the United States are both extremely foolish to focus so heavily on an event that occurred over a century ago. The US should be more pragmatic regarding its relations with Turkey, and Turkey should grow a pair and quit whining when it's pointed out that some sort of genocide occurred.
> ...



Call it what you will, but allowing a nation's perception of a historical event to influence your relationship with it today is silly.


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## ekrem (Mar 16, 2010)

actsnoblemartin said:


> its about time turkey pulls its head out of its *ass*, *willingly or not*.



Only 14% of Turks have favourable view of USA:
Turkey: Opinion of the United States - Pew Global Attitudes Project Key Indicators Database
Your image would never recover if you make such resolution. 

*From Transatlantictrends:*
On a 100-point thermometer scale, Turkey continued to view itself at 80 degrees, nearly 40 degrees warmer than all others. 











*Anatomy of cultivated rampant nationalism in Turkey*​[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RlB7ypb2RHw]YouTube - Anatomy of cultivated rampant nationalism in Turkey[/ame]


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## ekrem (Mar 16, 2010)

Kalam said:


> Call it what you will, but allowing a nation's perception of a historical event to influence your relationship with it today is silly.



No. The main sponsors of every year's resolution are mainly Senator/Congressman from California with sizeable Armenian-American communities (Armenian Diaspora). 
For example Adam Schiff:
Adam Schiff - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


> Schiff has also been a leading voice in Armenian-American issues; he claims to have over 70,000 Armenian-Americans in his district.



In this issue some US politicians for domestic gains put a damocles sword over US-Turkish relations. We do not have to accept this, and will never.


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## JakeStarkey (Mar 17, 2010)

CurveLight said:


> JakeStarkey said:
> 
> 
> > The USA was able to ignore Turkey in March 2003 and still invade Iraq successfully.  Thus we owe Turkey nothing.  And, yes, it was genocide.  The definition of "the deliberate and systematic destruction of a racial, political, or cultural group" clearly defines the history of Turkey and the minority group from 1911 to 1916.  I have liked most of the Turks I have met, but they are xenophobic second only to the Japanese, in my opinion.  I hope the resolution passes and have been disappointed in administrations in the past's waffling on the matter.
> ...



The mouse hides from the cat, or it will have a very unexpected future.


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## actsnoblemartin (Mar 17, 2010)

id tell the turks to go suck a dick, and quit being so buttsore


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## Neser Boha (Mar 17, 2010)

ekrem said:


> Kalam said:
> 
> 
> > Turkey and the United States are both extremely foolish to focus so heavily on an event that occurred over a century ago. The US should be more pragmatic regarding its relations with Turkey, and Turkey should grow a pair and quit whining when it's pointed out that some sort of genocide occurred.
> ...



Consequences, ROFL!  I am PRETTY damn sure that if Turkey wanted to play rough, it would be Turkey that'd lose and big time at that  And I'm pretty sure Turkish politicians know that as well.  This is all just BS grandstanding.  Honor this and honor that ... honor my ass.


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## ekrem (Mar 18, 2010)

Neser Boha said:


> (...)This is all just BS grandstanding.  Honor this and honor that ... honor my ass.



As long as you have interests in Turkey's sphere of influence you are the one which will loose. Persistent.
We will transform from being a partner in solving issues to someone who is creating problems for which you will not have any solutions. 

LINK: Foreign Minister Ahmet Davuto&#287;lu (...) told a Sarajevo audience (...) : Turkey's sphere of influence extends in a 3000 kilometers circle from the capital Ankara and takes in 72 countries.
The only theoretical competitor is Russia. But Russian-Turkish relations, without much media attention have exploded in every field. 
Here a good free article about Russia and Turkey:
Turkey and Russia on the Rise | STRATFOR




			
				Neser Boa said:
			
		

> Consequences, ROFL!  I am PRETTY damn sure that if Turkey wanted to play rough, it would be Turkey that'd lose and big time at that  And I'm pretty sure Turkish politicians know that as well.


Our bilateral trade is just 15 Billion $. Peanuts. 
You do not have any economical bullying capability over us. 
We are dependant - by choice - on your aviation industry. 
Russians would deliver civilian Tupolevs and instead of F-35 we would pump the money into Eurofighter or Russian equivalent.
Both would be happy to win over a *major* new consumer.


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## ekrem (Mar 18, 2010)

actsnoblemartin said:


> id tell the turks to go suck a dick, and quit being so buttsore



Life is no MTV music requesting programe. 
The sooner you learn this the more of empirical value/experience you will have to teach this your children.


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## 86DuDE (Mar 18, 2010)

So when do we get to vote on our government's ongoing genocide?


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## ekrem (Mar 18, 2010)

According to General Duncan J. McNabb, current Commander of U.S. Transportation Command
Duncan McNabb - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
46% of Air-Support to Afghanistan goes through Incirlik.

ABD Ýncirlik için malumu ilan etti - Hürriyet


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## ekrem (Mar 18, 2010)

*U.S. Commander Defines Incirlik as Pivotal Base*
Gen. Duncan McNabb, the commander of U.S. Transportation Command, said that Incirlik was a really pivotal base for the United States, both for the resupply of Iraq and for the resupply of Afghanistan.
(...)
Also speaking in the session, Gen. David Petraeus (...) Turkey had invested some 10 billion USD in north of Iraq so far, Petraeus also said. 
http://www.turkishweekly.net/news/99824/u-s-commander-defines-incirlik-as-pivotal-base.html


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## ekrem (Mar 18, 2010)

Adam Schiff

Main-Sponsor of Genocide Resolution
H.Res.252: Affirmation of the United States Record on the Armenian Genocide Resolution - U.S. Congress - OpenCongress


> (...)
> he claims to have over *70,000 Armenian*-Americans *in his district.*[4][5]


Adam Schiff - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## ekrem (Mar 18, 2010)

Robert Menéndez

S.Res.316: Affirmation of the United States Record on the Armenian Genocide Resolution - U.S. Congress - OpenCongress
*

Armenian* American Democratic Leadership Council


> Representative Menendez has been a true and longstanding friend of the Armenian-American community


Armenian American Democratic Leadership Council

LoL, even the Link-Structure of the URL ends with 
/*allstars*.asp?*allid=1*


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## ekrem (Mar 18, 2010)

Chairman of the Vote was Howard Berman. 
The vote ended 23-22. Just by 1 vote. 



> Chairman Howard Berman (D-California) held the vote open for an astonishing *90 minutes* in order to ensure that he had just enough votes to keep the measure from going


Was this mess avoidable? - Hurriyet Daily News and Economic Review

*Howard Berman*


> Berman represents over 600,000 residents of Californias 28th Congressional District (encompassing a large area of the San Fernando Valley), *a district* that is *home to tens of thousands of Armenian* Americans.


ANC-PAC Stands in Strong Support of Congressman Howard Berman | Asbarez Armenian News


ANC-PAC  ====  *Armenian* National CommitteePolitical Action Committee


> *ANC-PAC* (...) *to attend an annual fundraiser* held in southern California in *support of Congressman Howard Berman (D-CA).*


ANC-PAC Stands in Strong Support of Congressman Howard Berman | Asbarez Armenian News


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## ekrem (Apr 14, 2010)

Mr. Erdogan lecturing Ms. Amanpour.

Video - Breaking News Videos from CNN.com


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## Munin (Apr 14, 2010)

Srry man you re exagerating how powerful your country is, Turkey is not a superpower or a major power: it is still a small player compared to the US, Russia and China. Sure Turkey has a sphere of influence on its neighbours but I wouldn't exagerate that any further than that, the US has a sphere of influence no other nation can compete with it (a sphere of influence across the whole globe).

Other than that the US is a leading power in many organisations, there isn't any big organisation that the US as a country does not have big influence (NATO, UN, IMF, ... ) even in the OPEC organisation the US has influence (due to good relations with Saudi Arabia and other OPEC countries).


Even China can not defy the US as a superpower, it has a similar denial problem (the fact that they occupy a foreign country: tibet) and has been threatening every nation that would invite the Dalay Lama (the cultural and spiritual leader of tibet). And guess what: the US gave him a prize (congressional award). 

If there will be a clash, it will be both nations that will loose (as it will hurt interests of both nations). But proportionally Turkish interests would be damaged more, you simply can not deny that.


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## JakeStarkey (Apr 14, 2010)

To use a sporting metaphor: Turkey is an utility player on a major league team.  The USA and USSR are the super stars, and China joins them as all stars.  Nations such as South Korea, France, Italy, etc. are starters.  Turkey rides the bench.  It has a role to play but can be easily traded for a better player.


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## ekrem (Apr 14, 2010)

Turkey is in a region that matters to world dynamics.
I know it myself we are currently no world-power or something like that, I know this myself.
What counts is, that unlike those world powers, our capabilities are on-ground and in regional proximity to this area that matters to the world. And these capabilities are by far the most potent over here.

So you say a world-power like China matters more then Turkey in West-Asia?
Or an European central power like Germany or France matter more in West-Asia?


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## ekrem (Apr 15, 2010)

Munin said:


> (...)
> If there will be a clash, it will be both nations that will loose (as it will hurt interests of both nations). But proportionally Turkish interests would be damaged more, you simply can not deny that.



If your view of the world keeps going on, by believing Turkey will loose, then be it so. 

We will degrade relationships with you, once that resolution thing passes. 
We will redefine, formulate and implement foreign policy everywhere we have influence de-coupled from US-NATO-Turkey triangle. 
That does not have to mean, that we implement foreign policy by the principle to harm USA, but we surely wont reconsider any US interests in the Balkans, Caucasus, Middle-East, Central-Asia and North-Africa. .

We don't need you, some in Turkey don't want you on the political scenery. 
The public does anyway favour trashing obsolete "Cold War" alliances and pursueing Turkish-centered foreign policy.


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## ekrem (Apr 15, 2010)

JakeStarkey said:


> To use a sporting metaphor: Turkey is an utility player on a major league team.  (...)



Nice US centric view. 
Nice metaphor. 
Now let's switch to realpolitik: 
You don't even have solutions for Iran. 
Degradation of US-Turkey relations will have an impact that will alter every worst-case scenario you currently have think-thanked for West-Asia, provided that current Turkish foreign policy is itself altered to obligations of the US-Turkish relations. 

We currently dont know if Turkish position to several issues would be different, if Turkey would not have the obligations of US-NATO-Turkey triangle.
Want to find out? Your congressmen of Armenian-American districts seem to want.

There is noone in this region that you can build-upon as a counterweight or containment force against Turkey. Power balance is too one-sided for this to happen and economic integration is too advanced.
If there is still any country around having the balls to implement anti-Turkish policies orchestrated by USA, we will reduce throughput of Euphrat and Tigris rivers down-wards and before any "real action" we will put into force economic warfare.


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## JakeStarkey (Apr 15, 2010)

Turkey is not a major player, a minor one at the best.  A simple example suffices - when Turkey tried to blackmail the U.S. for money to let American troops transit Turkey for the invasion of Iraq, the U.S. told Turkey to screw off and then was nice to the Kurds.

Turks have far more to lose than the U.S. in any situation.


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## ekrem (Apr 15, 2010)

JakeStarkey said:


> Turkey is not a major player, a minor one at the best.  A simple example suffices - when Turkey tried to blackmail the U.S. for money to let American troops transit Turkey for the invasion of Iraq, the U.S. told Turkey to screw off and then was nice to the Kurds.(...)



And where are we know?
"Kurdish Regional Government of Iraq" is Turkish airspace with Turkish Airforce flying therein, it is an extension of Turkish economy and we have military bases there.

Undeniable, that the USA can implement policy against our interests to punish Turkey. Like for example with the Kurd issue, here and there letting float around "Kurdistan maps". 
But these policies are short-living.

Financial Times:
- 80% of goods in KRG are Turkish
- 55% of foreign companies in KRG are Turkish
- Turkish opil company invested in KRG oil field Tak-Tak
FT.com / Iraq - Turkey finds a gateway to Iraq

According to General Petraeus, Turkey invested about 10 Billion $ into North Iraq. 
LINK: US commander defines ?ncirlik as pivotal base
"Stable North-Iraq" is Turkish sponsored.

Look at this thread (for whole Iraq):
In *2009 alone* Turkish companies signed i*nvestment agreements worth 8 Billion $* in whole Iraq. Turkey is excluding the oil sector the biggest investor in Iraq:
http://www.usmessageboard.com/iraq/112946-iraq-turkey-trade-up-50-a.html

I doubt, Iraq or North-Iraq has anything substantial to privatize.
But if there is any privatization by KRG we will buy that also. 
North-Iraq is extension of Turkish economy.



			
				Jack Starkley said:
			
		

> the U.S. told Turkey to screw off and then was nice to the Kurds


Yeah, whatever.
We went into North-Iraq in 2008 militarily. 
According to Stratfor we established 11 military bases in North-Iraq after we pulled out. 



> The temporary security bases are to be established in Zap, Ava&#351;in, Hakurk, Zinhat Pass, Zeli, Mezi, Haftanin, Qanimasi, Mergasor and Barzan.


Free Article for Non-Members | STRATFOR

Our jets still fly in North-Iraq airspace.


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## Munin (Apr 16, 2010)

ekrem said:


> JakeStarkey said:
> 
> 
> > To use a sporting metaphor: Turkey is an utility player on a major league team.  (...)
> ...



Uh no, this is the solution for Iran:

Nuclear summit in Washington 'most unarguable' - Medvedev | Top Russian news and analysis online | 'RIA Novosti' newswire

The US has now created an 'axis of power' (bilateral relationship that enables 2 countries to closely work together on global issues) with moscow and this new good relationship will allow the US to pressure Iran into submission, as the only opposing major power is China and that country can not afford to be isolated (as it is the *only* opposing major country). Simply put, China will loose more than it has to gain by opposing all the other major powers in the world. You may have noticed how careful the Chinese chose their words when talking about pressuring Iran.

Turkey hasn't even been mentioned in these talks, it is not been a significant influence in any way (compared to China & Russia).

Key players against Iran: Russia, China & Some major European nations (UK & France both have nukes)


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## JakeStarkey (Apr 16, 2010)

So what, ekrem?  None of that rebuts _realpolitik_: Turkey is but a pimple on the major powers' collective butt.  Get in the way, get popped.


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## ekrem (Apr 16, 2010)

Munin said:


> (...)
> 
> Uh no, this is the solution for Iran:
> 
> ...



Brazil and Turkey are currently as non-permanent member in UN security council.
Both countries have announced, that they do not support any sanctions on Iran. 
Russia *may* - if the USA gives something in return - support mini-sanctions.
China in best-case scenario would only OK mini-mini-sanctions - if at all.
The Russian position is a position of eventually joining sanctions, but for Russia these sanctions lie far in future. Nothing imminent.  

You say, Turkey does not matter on Iran sanctions. 
We are a neighbour to Iran. Leaving aside every other factor, only the geographic factor alone is enough to weaken any sanctions, that are based on "hearing and saying" of an Iranian nuclear bomb.


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## Munin (Apr 16, 2010)

ekrem said:


> You say, Turkey does not matter on Iran sanctions.
> We are a neighbour to Iran. Leaving aside every other factor, only the geographic factor alone is enough to weaken any sanctions, that are based on "hearing and saying" of an Iranian nuclear bomb.



I said that Turkey does not matter compared to Russia and China. Turkey is not a superpower: the US is, so anything that Turkey will do against the US will most probably hurt Turkey more than the US.


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## ekrem (Apr 16, 2010)

Munin said:


> I said that Turkey does not matter compared to Russia and China. Turkey is not a superpower: the US is, so anything that Turkey will do against the US will most probably hurt Turkey more than the US.



Probably as hurt like after 2003. 
Where Turkey now stands regarding KRG and Iraq was described with sources above.

It is not in our interest to punish collectively 72 million Iranians. 
1/3 of Iran is Azeri Turkic population.
Teheran is after Istanbul second biggest city in world, where Turkish is spoken. 
Link: The Washington Note

Collective punishment of 72 million people is a no-go based on "hearing and saying"-rumours of a military nuclear programme by Iran. 
If you want to sanction nuclear activities, do it with India, Israel and Pakistan first.
Those are not rumours. 

And once that resolution thing passes, we will downgrade relations with you on every field.
That Anti-Terrorism thingy during ww1 against Orthodox Armenian Jihadists.
Link:  The Guardian


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## JakeStarkey (Apr 16, 2010)

No one in America cares if Turkey downgrades relations because Americans know the Turks dare not do anything so destructive to its country's future.


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## ekrem (Apr 16, 2010)

JakeStarkey said:


> No one in America cares if Turkey downgrades relations because Americans know the Turks dare not do anything so destructive to its country's future.



Why don't you argument in which way this would be destructive. 
I am curious about the train of thoughts that produce such a statement.
These are strong words:



> destructive to its country's future



Please explain.


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## JakeStarkey (Apr 16, 2010)

ekrem said:


> JakeStarkey said:
> 
> 
> > No one in America cares if Turkey downgrades relations because Americans know the Turks dare not do anything so destructive to its country's future.
> ...



How is this a strong statement?  Turkey is a regional player in Middle East, very secondary to Iran or even Israel, much less the U.S in determining what happens in the region.  The Iraqi invasion is a classic example of Turkey's weakness in its own region.


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## ekrem (Apr 16, 2010)

JakeStarkey said:


> How is this a strong statement?  Turkey is a regional player in Middle East, very secondary to Iran or even Israel, much less the U.S in determining what happens in the region.  The Iraqi invasion is a classic example of Turkey's weakness in its own region.



You said, that by Turkish motivated degradation of US-Turkey relations this would resemble something like a destructive choice to Turkey's future. 
I ask you, what are your cards to play in that case, that resemble such a destiny?
Simple question.

To your other sentences: 
Before 2003, Turkey was a non-actor in Middle-East *by choice*. After 2003 we canalized our capabilities southwards, with USA trying to block Turkey till November 2007 as sort of punishment.

Now, to your declaration that Israel and Iran would determine what happens in this region. 
Both countries do not have any soft-power capabilities over other countries. 
Cultural, economical, socio-humanistic interaction.

Neither the most aggressive (Israel) nor the most active in financing non-state players (Iran) will elevate in to a hegemonic status. It is a combination of sheer conventional power, equipped with self-sustaining economic power and cultural attractiveness.

Turkey does not have a strategy for this region that relies solely on conventional capabilities. 
We bombed Terrorist camps in KRG, but afterwards invested 10 billion $ for the local people of KRG. 
Our primary strategy is integration of the region into Turkish economy without sectarian or religious preference lines. 

The last episode of Noor, a Turkish TV series, was watched by 85 Million Arabs:
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/27/world/middleeast/27beirut.html?_r=1
This only one of many TV series that are airing on Arab Televisions.

Would Turkey "F-16"-nize its neighbours or send missile firing tests over TV screens and finance non-state players, Turkey would have even more "media-attention" in media. 
But that is not Turkey's strategy. 
And not the loudest barking through media attention is ultimately the tough guy.
If we implemented a strategy that follows the principal rule of Irsael's and Iran's (militarization of foreign policy), we would already have expanded territoritally into the Islamic periphery.

We invade them this time as merchants and businessmen, spread our culture and herewith our attractiveness for "average-Joe" on the Muslim streets. 
Me thinks, Turkey's strategy is the most wise and the only sustainable of all strategies. 

The blockade politics by USA as sort of punishment against Turkey for 2003, fell in November 2007, when President Gul visited Bush junior. 
Since then we have made remarkable impact up-till now and this trend will exponentially continue.
And for war with any neighbour in this region, we are anyway ready for.


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## JakeStarkey (Apr 16, 2010)

Destiny?  Turkey's "Destiny" ended with WWI.  Turkey is a straw man, the weak man still of eastern Europe and the Near East.  You have nothing to underwrite your claims.  Not a thing.


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## ekrem (Apr 16, 2010)

JakeStarkey said:


> Destiny?  Turkey's "Destiny" ended with WWI.  Turkey is a straw man, the weak man still of eastern Europe and the Near East.  You have nothing to underwrite your claims.  Not a thing.




You try to picture the world from long ago buried pictures. 
Talking of "weak man" of Eastern Europe and Middle-East.
You have no clue. Sleep on. 

The funniest thing is, you claim that I would have nothing to underwrite my "claims". 
First, these are no claims. 
Second, since I am on this board I bombarded this forum with sources and facts that underwrite my position. 

We can switch to a dry, fact-orientated debate. 
But so far, with talking out of your ass, that leaves to me the conclusion that you are just provincial average-Joe, you did not qualified for such a debate


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## ekrem (Apr 16, 2010)

huffingtonpost.com - Video - Turkish Soap Operas Captivate Arab World


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## Marc39 (Apr 18, 2010)

JakeStarkey said:


> Destiny?  Turkey's "Destiny" ended with WWI.  Turkey is a straw man, the weak man still of eastern Europe and the Near East.  You have nothing to underwrite your claims.  Not a thing.



Very salient point.  One of bin Ladin's key reasons for 9/11 as stated in his list of grievances was the collapse of the Ottoman Empire in World War I to the Allies.

The sick fuck still cannot let go of events of almost 100 years ago.


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## ekrem (Apr 18, 2010)

Marc39 said:


> Very salient point.  One of bin Ladin's key reasons for 9/11 as stated in his list of grievances was the collapse of the Ottoman Empire in World War I to the Allies.
> 
> The sick fuck still cannot let go of events of almost 100 years ago.



Geanie is out of bottle.
You are the man.
Finally there he is: Bin Ladin.
Now come up with honour killings and we have the right cocktail for you to go and burn mosques and if there is still time phosphorize some Gaza children on home-way. 
You sick fuck.


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## JakeStarkey (Apr 19, 2010)

ekrem, because I know that Turkey is not a major player in the world, and only a minor one in the region.  The fact that I realize this means that I am allied with the jihadists?  Don't take a math, philosophy, or stats class, son, because you will fail it.


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## Munin (Apr 19, 2010)

JakeStarkey said:


> ekrem, because I know that Turkey is not a major player in the world, and only a minor one in the region.  The fact that I realize this means that I am allied with the jihadists?  Don't take a math, philosophy, or stats class, son, because you will fail it.



I think his patriotism clouds his judgement and that is not much different from certain US patriots. (Country first!  then logical thinking)


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## JakeStarkey (Apr 19, 2010)

ekrem, you are not logical, my son.  You make silly assumptions and false connections.  Your segues fail in approach and logic.

Let me remind you that Turkey is the collective tail of a dog wagged by both Europe and the U.S.  It has no control at all of its own future in the ME.


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