# Why did the holocaust occur?



## DavidS

I don't believe there is any question that is so simple yet that requires such a complex answer.

On another message board more relating to photography, a photographer had unveiled a new, quite excellent body of work that exhibited portraits of holocaust survivors. One critic had this to say about the subject matter:



> To be perfectly frank I see no point in adding yet another body of work -even a work as masterful as this clearly is -to the subject of the Holocaust that is devoid of any serious analysis of the question of _why._ A million volumes have already been written and they all with few exceptions primarily function to shroud the episode in mystery, rendering the subject broadly incomprehensible and in so doing, serving to intellectually disarm any meaningful resistance to its future resuscitation.



The discussion of politics is not allowed on that forum, so I thought I would turn the discussion over to here, where there are quite a few intelligent people on this forum.

So, why do YOU think the holocaust happened? Give whatever realist or phillisophical belief you might have on why it occurred.

Also, I know there are deniers out there who believe the holocaust never happened and we've got your story down - thank you. I also know there are one or two neo-nazis/skinheads/racists on this forum, again thank you, we know you hate Jews. This discussion is not for you and I would thank you if you kept out of it.


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## dilloduck

DavidS said:


> I don't believe there is any question that is so simple yet that requires such a complex answer.
> 
> On another message board more relating to photography, a photographer had unveiled a new, quite excellent body of work that exhibited portraits of holocaust survivors. One critic had this to say about the subject matter:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> To be perfectly frank I see no point in adding yet another body of work -even a work as masterful as this clearly is -to the subject of the Holocaust that is devoid of any serious analysis of the question of _why._ A million volumes have already been written and they all with few exceptions primarily function to shroud the episode in mystery, rendering the subject broadly incomprehensible and in so doing, serving to intellectually disarm any meaningful resistance to its future resuscitation.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The discussion of politics is not allowed on that forum, so I thought I would turn the discussion over to here, where there are quite a few intelligent people on this forum.
> 
> So, why do YOU think the holocaust happened? Give whatever realist or phillisophical belief you might have on why it occurred.
> 
> Also, I know there are deniers out there who believe the holocaust never happened and we've got your story down - thank you. I also know there are one or two neo-nazis/skinheads/racists on this forum, again thank you, we know you hate Jews. This discussion is not for you and I would thank you if you kept out of it.
Click to expand...


I don't give a shit and am tired of constantly hearing about.


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## random3434

It happened because Mans Inhumanity to Man has no boundaries.

_The safest course is to do nothing against one's conscience. With this secret, we can enjoy life and have no fear from death. _-Voltaire


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## dilloduck

Echo Zulu said:


> It happened because Mans Inhumanity to Man has no boundaries.
> 
> _The safest course is to do nothing against one's conscience. With this secret, we can enjoy life and have no fear from death. _-Voltaire



and continues to happen to every race, nationality, and creed.


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## random3434

dilloduck said:


> Echo Zulu said:
> 
> 
> 
> It happened because Mans Inhumanity to Man has no boundaries.
> 
> _The safest course is to do nothing against one's conscience. With this secret, we can enjoy life and have no fear from death. _-Voltaire
> 
> 
> 
> 
> and continues to happen to every race, nationality, and creed.
Click to expand...


Yes, thus the man's inhumanity to man. Evil has no bounds, never has, never will, as long as there are humans, or what passes for humans.


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## Skeptik

DavidS said:


> I don't believe there is any question that is so simple yet that requires such a complex answer.
> 
> On another message board more relating to photography, a photographer had unveiled a new, quite excellent body of work that exhibited portraits of holocaust survivors. One critic had this to say about the subject matter:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> To be perfectly frank I see no point in adding yet another body of work -even a work as masterful as this clearly is -to the subject of the Holocaust that is devoid of any serious analysis of the question of _why._ A million volumes have already been written and they all with few exceptions primarily function to shroud the episode in mystery, rendering the subject broadly incomprehensible and in so doing, serving to intellectually disarm any meaningful resistance to its future resuscitation.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The discussion of politics is not allowed on that forum, so I thought I would turn the discussion over to here, where there are quite a few intelligent people on this forum.
> 
> So, why do YOU think the holocaust happened? Give whatever realist or phillisophical belief you might have on why it occurred.
> 
> Also, I know there are deniers out there who believe the holocaust never happened and we've got your story down - thank you. I also know there are one or two neo-nazis/skinheads/racists on this forum, again thank you, we know you hate Jews. This discussion is not for you and I would thank you if you kept out of it.
Click to expand...


The holocaust is not the only example of genocide.  It is something that has happened over and over again throughout human history.  

There must be something in the makeup of human beings that leads us to try to wipe out other human beings who are different in one way or another.  It must be something in the psycology of the human species, not peculiar to any race or culture, as it has happened in different cultures and among different races.  

Maybe, if we can figure out what it is, we can prevent such a thing from happening in the future.

Or, maybe not.

Isn't there a genocide going on right now, in Africa?


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## roomy

Hitler and his henchmen found themselves in a position of Godlike power, Germany was in crisis and the Jews were an easy blame for all the woes of the German people.As horrible as it is, this hatred of the Jewry united the German people to such an effect that his pograms snowballed.


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## Munin

DavidS said:


> I don't believe there is any question that is so simple yet that requires such a complex answer.
> 
> On another message board more relating to photography, a photographer had unveiled a new, quite excellent body of work that exhibited portraits of holocaust survivors. One critic had this to say about the subject matter:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> To be perfectly frank I see no point in adding yet another body of work -even a work as masterful as this clearly is -to the subject of the Holocaust that is devoid of any serious analysis of the question of _why._ A million volumes have already been written and they all with few exceptions primarily function to shroud the episode in mystery, rendering the subject broadly incomprehensible and in so doing, serving to intellectually disarm any meaningful resistance to its future resuscitation.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The discussion of politics is not allowed on that forum, so I thought I would turn the discussion over to here, where there are quite a few intelligent people on this forum.
> 
> So, why do YOU think the holocaust happened? Give whatever realist or phillisophical belief you might have on why it occurred.
> 
> Also, I know there are deniers out there who believe the holocaust never happened and we've got your story down - thank you. I also know there are one or two neo-nazis/skinheads/racists on this forum, again thank you, we know you hate Jews. This discussion is not for you and I would thank you if you kept out of it.
Click to expand...


One word: scapegoat


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## Anguille

DavidS said:


> I don't believe there is any question that is so simple yet that requires such a complex answer.
> 
> On another message board more relating to photography, a photographer had unveiled a new, quite excellent body of work that exhibited portraits of holocaust survivors. One critic had this to say about the subject matter:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> To be perfectly frank I see no point in adding yet another body of work -even a work as masterful as this clearly is -to the subject of the Holocaust that is devoid of any serious analysis of the question of _why._ A million volumes have already been written and they all with few exceptions primarily function to shroud the episode in mystery, rendering the subject broadly incomprehensible and in so doing, serving to intellectually disarm any meaningful resistance to its future resuscitation.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The discussion of politics is not allowed on that forum, so I thought I would turn the discussion over to here, where there are quite a few intelligent people on this forum.
> 
> So, why do YOU think the holocaust happened? Give whatever realist or phillisophical belief you might have on why it occurred.
> 
> Also, I know there are deniers out there who believe the holocaust never happened and we've got your story down - thank you. I also know there are one or two neo-nazis/skinheads/racists on this forum, again thank you, we know you hate Jews. This discussion is not for you and I would thank you if you kept out of it.
Click to expand...

 
Which holocaust?  Our history is full of them.


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## Sky Dancer

This is an interesting topic.  The holocaust happened because the causes and conditions for it to happen were present.

One of the most interesting things to me is how the German people were socialized in their families to accept authority and to not investigate what their government was doing.


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## Sunni Man

If you are talking about the so called Holocaust of the Jews, then the answer is simple.

During WWI the Jewish bankers had sold out Germany causing the humiliation and defeat of Germany.

The average German citizen knew this and hated the Jews for it.

When Hitler came along and voiced what everyone knew but were afraid to say.

He became wildly popular and was able to round up the traitorous Jews and put them in camps.

The average German supported the cleansing of society from Jewish decadence and immorality.


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## Sky Dancer

Anguille said:


> DavidS said:
> 
> 
> 
> I don't believe there is any question that is so simple yet that requires such a complex answer.
> 
> On another message board more relating to photography, a photographer had unveiled a new, quite excellent body of work that exhibited portraits of holocaust survivors. One critic had this to say about the subject matter:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> To be perfectly frank I see no point in adding yet another body of work -even a work as masterful as this clearly is -to the subject of the Holocaust that is devoid of any serious analysis of the question of _why._ A million volumes have already been written and they all with few exceptions primarily function to shroud the episode in mystery, rendering the subject broadly incomprehensible and in so doing, serving to intellectually disarm any meaningful resistance to its future resuscitation.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The discussion of politics is not allowed on that forum, so I thought I would turn the discussion over to here, where there are quite a few intelligent people on this forum.
> 
> So, why do YOU think the holocaust happened? Give whatever realist or phillisophical belief you might have on why it occurred.
> 
> Also, I know there are deniers out there who believe the holocaust never happened and we've got your story down - thank you. I also know there are one or two neo-nazis/skinheads/racists on this forum, again thank you, we know you hate Jews. This discussion is not for you and I would thank you if you kept out of it.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Which holocaust?  Our history is full of them.
Click to expand...


True enough.  History is full of stories of genocide.  Some are recent.  We are still haunted by the Nazi holocaust over sixty years later.


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## Tech_Esq

roomy said:


> Hitler and his henchmen found themselves in a position of Godlike power, Germany was in crisis and the Jews were an easy blame for all the woes of the German people.As horrible as it is, this hatred of the Jewry united the German people to such an effect that his pograms snowballed.



I would change that synopsis only slightly to say that "the Jews were _essential_ to blame for the woes...." That the Jews were closely identified with the political parties that made up "the backstabbers of 1918" causing Germany to surrender at Versailles and the suffer under the "iron boot" of that treaty, was a theme too good to ignore. If you are a far right wing party of little note, it does you no harm to shoot broadly at left-wing socialists and the elements that make up the socialist parties. That certainly fit the National Socialist German Workers Party in the 1920s. Add in the pre-existing Antisemitism that existed in Germany and it was irresistible. 

Further, the leadership began to believe its own bullshit. (Maybe that is a trifle too cynical, but I think it is possible).


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## ABikerSailor

Why did the Holocaust happen?

Well......after WWI, Germany was in an economic slump, and they saw all the Jews around them still doing pretty well.

Hitler saw this, and started to come up with his own way of doing things.  Personally?  I think he stumbled upon some arcane Kabbalah knowledge, or some other thing like that, and learned how to influence people with his presence.

Then, knowing that if he didn't eradicate the Jews, they would tell on him and what he was doing (basically lying to the German people), so he started to have them gassed, creamated and worked to death, as well as shot and buried in mass graves.

I also think that there was a bit of self-hatred mixed in, as there were facial features about Hitler which made people wonder if he was half Jewish or not.

Then........there was his incredible obsession with the Occult, as well as theologies from all over the world, as well as the German lore.

Because there was such a cooraboration between Hitler and the Islamics from the ME, I'd also be willing to bet that Muslims had a bit of an influence on it as well.  

You do know that Nazis and Muslims were allies in WWII, right?

Oh yeah.......and then there was the drug addiction thing.


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## Tech_Esq

Sunni Man said:


> If you are talking about the so called Holocaust of the Jews, then the answer is simple.
> 
> During WWI the Jewish bankers had sold out Germany causing the humiliation and defeat of Germany.
> 
> The average German citizen knew this and hated the Jews for it.
> 
> When Hitler came along and voiced what everyone knew but were afraid to say.
> 
> He became wildly popular and was able to round up the traitorous Jews and put them in camps.
> 
> The average German supported the cleansing of society from Jewish decadence and immorality.



Nice summary of Mein Kampf.....I wonder why you know it so well?


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## Diuretic

Government policy, the Final Solution.  It was a genocide ordered by the Nazis.  Why was that?  Roomy has already pointed it out.  I think that the Nazis saw Jews as a threat to their government and were determined to remove that threat.  How valid that assumption was I don't know.  A point has been made about Jewish financiers.  I think that point can be defeated by the evidence that points to the Nazis wanting to eliminate all Jews, not just financiers.  Anyway my view is that it was a racial genocide.  A racial genocide carries within it its own reasoning - witness the Rwandan genocide.  Same human impulse.


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## editec

Because people are basically cowards and their cowardess makes them damned fools, DavidS.

The only people who fought against the National socialist movement were the Communists and anarchists.

But since the elite of Germany felt that Hitler was a superior choice compared to communists and anarchists they threw their support to him because they felt he was no threat to capitalism (and they were right)

Where do you think the SA got the money to hire the thugs (including Hitler FYI) for those years before the NAZIs gained political control of the nation?_ Bake sales?_

And remember that the NAZI took control of the streets before they took control of the nation. They were a highly organizaed private ARMY long before they were in power.

National Socialist movement got their operating capital from the industrialists (Like Krupt) who would benefit from German remilitarization.

The Jews and Gypsies, and homosexuals were just very convenient scapegoats because the average German didn't like them anyway.

But the Communists, union leaders and social democrats were the _real threat,_ and you'll notice that once Hitler took over, they were also the FIRST people send to the camps.

As to why the Jews were targeted?

Hey all you've got to do is read THIS board and you'll understand the sort of convuluted thinking of the people that hate Jews.

And if you REALLY want to get you PhD about what causes anti-Semitism, you ought to go back and read some of the disgusting things _you have written_, here, too.

Racism begates racism, sport and you DavidS, are no less a racist than William Joyce or Sunni.

I don't think you perceive yourself as a racist, I don't even think you're a bad person, but I definitely do think you live in a cacoon of like-minded ethnocentrists who have poisoned your world outlook.

Having sucked from that toxic teat myself, all I can tell you and them is that recovery for hate IS possible once you leave whatever ghetto of ignorance that sustains you now.


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## Modbert

dilloduck said:


> I don't give a shit and am tired of constantly hearing about.





I think David is trying to gain some guilt now that everybody knows he's a ignorant pervert.


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## dilloduck

Sky Dancer said:


> Anguille said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> DavidS said:
> 
> 
> 
> I don't believe there is any question that is so simple yet that requires such a complex answer.
> 
> On another message board more relating to photography, a photographer had unveiled a new, quite excellent body of work that exhibited portraits of holocaust survivors. One critic had this to say about the subject matter:
> 
> 
> 
> The discussion of politics is not allowed on that forum, so I thought I would turn the discussion over to here, where there are quite a few intelligent people on this forum.
> 
> So, why do YOU think the holocaust happened? Give whatever realist or phillisophical belief you might have on why it occurred.
> 
> Also, I know there are deniers out there who believe the holocaust never happened and we've got your story down - thank you. I also know there are one or two neo-nazis/skinheads/racists on this forum, again thank you, we know you hate Jews. This discussion is not for you and I would thank you if you kept out of it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Which holocaust?  Our history is full of them.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> True enough.  History is full of stories of genocide.  Some are recent.  We are still haunted by the Nazi holocaust over sixty years later.
Click to expand...


I'm not haunted by it----I'm bored to tears of hearing about it. Let's study a few other genocides and get a little broader view of history.


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## Modbert

Skeptik said:


> Isn't there a genocide going on right now, in Africa?



Yes, but David doesn't care about them since they're black and not Jewish.

I don't like how David refers to it as the holocaust as if there was only one.

How many times do Americans want to talk about how the U.S. Govt and many of her citizens committed genocide against the Indians?

Their population went from 12 million in 1500 to barely 237,000 in 1900.


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## Modbert

Anguille said:


> Which holocaust?  Our history is full of them.



Again, this is David we're talking about. Which one do you think he actually gives a damn about to post about?


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## roomy

dilloduck said:


> Sky Dancer said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Anguille said:
> 
> 
> 
> Which holocaust?  Our history is full of them.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> True enough.  History is full of stories of genocide.  Some are recent.  We are still haunted by the Nazi holocaust over sixty years later.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I'm not haunted by it----I'm bored to tears of hearing about it. Let's study a few other genocides and get a little broader view of history.
Click to expand...


If it bores you please do us all a favour and fuck off out of the thread.


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## roomy

Modbert said:


> Anguille said:
> 
> 
> 
> Which holocaust?  Our history is full of them.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Again, this is David we're talking about. Which one do you think he actually gives a damn about to post about?
Click to expand...



Please take your agenda to the flame zone on your way out of this thread.


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## Modbert

roomy said:


> If it bores you please do us all a favour and fuck off out of the thread.



Honestly Roomy, the holocaust against the Jews has been beaten to death more then any event in history.

The reasons of why it happened are quite obvious. There is no good reason for David to bring up such a thread short of a combination of trolling and trying to draw sympathy.


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## roomy

Modbert said:


> roomy said:
> 
> 
> 
> If it bores you please do us all a favour and fuck off out of the thread.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Honestly Roomy, the holocaust against the Jews has been beaten to death more then any event in history.
> 
> The reasons of why it happened are quite obvious. There is no good reason for David to bring up such a thread short of a combination of trolling and trying to draw sympathy.
Click to expand...



Very good, you don't need to post on the topic, others are and you are trying your best to fuck the thread up.Kindly desist.


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## Modbert

roomy said:


> Very good, you don't need to post on the topic, others are and you are trying your best to fuck the thread up.Kindly desist.



I'm not trying to fuck up any thread. I'm merely questioning why it's always the Hitler Holocaust that is referred to as the only one or why it's the only one discussed?

Why no discussions once again about how the Native Americans not only got wiped out by the U.S. Govt and many of her citizens but their legacy has been a complete lie when fabricated by many lying sources.

Or how about the current Genocide going on in Darfur? 

Nobody ever talks about how the Trail of Tears if done today would be considered Genocide. Or how the number of Natives killed vastly outnumber the number in the Holocaust committed by Hitler.

Or hey about the Armenian genocide? Or the genocide committed against the Russian people by their own government during the time of the Soviet Union?

Or Mengistu in Ethiopia with the red scare?

Or Saddam's genocide against the Kurds?

Or Rwanda?

My point is, why not discussion of other genocides and not just the only one that David gives a damn about?

The reason for why the Hitler Genocide occurred has already been answered by several posters, and I simply didn't feel like beating the dead horse.


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## del

Modbert said:


> roomy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Very good, you don't need to post on the topic, others are and you are trying your best to fuck the thread up.Kindly desist.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not trying to fuck up any thread. I'm merely questioning why it's always the Hitler Holocaust that is referred to as the only one or why it's the only one discussed?
> 
> Why no discussions once again about how the Native Americans not only got wiped out by the U.S. Govt and many of her citizens but their legacy has been a complete lie when fabricated by many lying sources.
> 
> Or how about the current Genocide going on in Darfur?
> 
> Nobody ever talks about how the Trail of Tears if done today would be considered Genocide. Or how the number of Natives killed vastly outnumber the number in the Holocaust committed by Hitler.
> 
> Or hey about the Armenian genocide? Or the genocide committed against the Russian people by their own government during the time of the Soviet Union?
> 
> Or Mengistu in Ethiopia with the red scare?
> 
> Or Saddam's genocide against the Kurds?
> 
> Or Rwanda?
> 
> My point is, why not discussion of other genocides and not just the only one that David gives a damn about?
> 
> The reason for why the Hitler Genocide occurred has already been answered by several posters, and I simply didn't feel like beating the dead horse.
Click to expand...


well, as roomy suggested, you can always not post to the thread.
that's what i do. your choice...


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## roomy

Modbert said:


> roomy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Very good, you don't need to post on the topic, others are and you are trying your best to fuck the thread up.Kindly desist.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not trying to fuck up any thread. I'm merely questioning why it's always the Hitler Holocaust that is referred to as the only one or why it's the only one discussed?
> 
> Why no discussions once again about how the Native Americans not only got wiped out by the U.S. Govt and many of her citizens but their legacy has been a complete lie when fabricated by many lying sources.
> 
> Or how about the current Genocide going on in Darfur?
> 
> Nobody ever talks about how the Trail of Tears if done today would be considered Genocide. Or how the number of Natives killed vastly outnumber the number in the Holocaust committed by Hitler.
> 
> Or hey about the Armenian genocide? Or the genocide committed against the Russian people by their own government during the time of the Soviet Union?
> 
> Or Mengistu in Ethiopia with the red scare?
> 
> Or Saddam's genocide against the Kurds?
> 
> Or Rwanda?
> 
> My point is, why not discussion of other genocides and not just the only one that David gives a damn about?
> 
> The reason for why the Hitler Genocide occurred has already been answered by several posters, and I simply didn't feel like beating the dead horse.
Click to expand...


Choose a fucking topic and start a fucking thread, it's not so hard, hells flames you've just wrote a fucking list of stuff you would like to debate now fuck off and start a thread.


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## José

> Originally posted by *DavidS*
> Why did the Holocaust occur?



The wholesale extermination of European Jewry, aka, Holocaust, happened because of WWII.

Had Russia and the West accepted Hitler's expansionist plans, some version of the Madagascar Plan would eventually be implemented.

*Madagascar Plan: a suggested policy of the Nazi government to forcibly relocate the Jewish population of Europe to the island of Madagascar.*


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## José

Ironically, European Jews herded into Madagascar or some other god forsaken part of the world and prevented from returning to their places of origin in Europe by the Third Reich would look awfully similar to Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza.


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## random3434

I wonder how somebody on here get those BIG RED STAR like things? 

Maybe it's like the *Pink Triangles* the Nazi made the gay people wear?


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## Zoom-boing

The Holocaust happened on the whim of a madman.  He was in the right place at the right time and he went after it.  That was _his _master plan.


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## barry1960

Sunni Man said:


> If you are talking about the so called Holocaust of the Jews, then the answer is simple.
> 
> During WWI the Jewish bankers had sold out Germany causing the humiliation and defeat of Germany.
> 
> The average German citizen knew this and hated the Jews for it.
> 
> When Hitler came along and voiced what everyone knew but were afraid to say.
> 
> He became wildly popular and was able to round up the traitorous Jews and put them in camps.
> 
> The average German supported the cleansing of society from Jewish decadence and immorality.



You're joking right?


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## ABikerSailor

Unfortunately, Sunnidiot isn't joking.  He's been this way ever since I've seen his sorry ass on these boards.

He's got a habit of not listening to facts.


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## random3434

barry1960 said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> 
> If you are talking about the so called Holocaust of the Jews, then the answer is simple.
> 
> During WWI the Jewish bankers had sold out Germany causing the humiliation and defeat of Germany.
> 
> The average German citizen knew this and hated the Jews for it.
> 
> When Hitler came along and voiced what everyone knew but were afraid to say.
> 
> He became wildly popular and was able to round up the traitorous Jews and put them in camps.
> 
> The average German supported the cleansing of society from Jewish decadence and immorality.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You're joking right?
Click to expand...



No, he really believes that drivel. He gets his info from Mein Kampf, Stormfront, and any site that has anti-jewish propaganda. 

He lives to flame on here, it's what makes his life complete.


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## ABikerSailor

Not to mention the quack therapist imitation he does any time someone tears his stupid sorry ass apart.

Look out for Sunnidiot......he's like the unpopular kid that stole out of other kids lockers that tried to be friends with all of the new kids when you were in school.


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## elvis

DavidS said:


> I don't believe there is any question that is so simple yet that requires such a complex answer.
> 
> On another message board more relating to photography, a photographer had unveiled a new, quite excellent body of work that exhibited portraits of holocaust survivors. One critic had this to say about the subject matter:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> To be perfectly frank I see no point in adding yet another body of work -even a work as masterful as this clearly is -to the subject of the Holocaust that is devoid of any serious analysis of the question of _why._ A million volumes have already been written and they all with few exceptions primarily function to shroud the episode in mystery, rendering the subject broadly incomprehensible and in so doing, serving to intellectually disarm any meaningful resistance to its future resuscitation.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The discussion of politics is not allowed on that forum, so I thought I would turn the discussion over to here, where there are quite a few intelligent people on this forum.
> 
> So, why do YOU think the holocaust happened? Give whatever realist or phillisophical belief you might have on why it occurred.
> 
> Also, I know there are deniers out there who believe the holocaust never happened and we've got your story down - thank you. I also know there are one or two neo-nazis/skinheads/racists on this forum, again thank you, we know you hate Jews. This discussion is not for you and I would thank you if you kept out of it.
Click to expand...


Hitler's insecurities in himself which led to scapegoating.  not to mention the scapegoating of Ludendorf, Wilhlem, and von Hindenburg (they couldn't take responsibility for losing world war I)


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## Sunni Man

barry1960 said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> 
> If you are talking about the so called Holocaust of the Jews, then the answer is simple.
> 
> During WWI the Jewish bankers had sold out Germany causing the humiliation and defeat of Germany.
> 
> The average German citizen knew this and hated the Jews for it.
> 
> When Hitler came along and voiced what everyone knew but were afraid to say.
> 
> He became wildly popular and was able to round up the traitorous Jews and put them in camps.
> 
> The average German supported the cleansing of society from Jewish decadence and immorality.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You're joking right?
Click to expand...

Look it up friend.

It's in the history books


----------



## Skeptik

José;1047699 said:
			
		

> Ironically, European Jews herded into Madagascar or some other god forsaken part of the world and prevented from returning to their places of origin in Europe by the Third Reich would look awfully similar to Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza.



Yes, or the Trail of Tears of the Cherokee.


----------



## barry1960

Sunni Man said:


> barry1960 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> 
> If you are talking about the so called Holocaust of the Jews, then the answer is simple.
> 
> During WWI the Jewish bankers had sold out Germany causing the humiliation and defeat of Germany.
> 
> The average German citizen knew this and hated the Jews for it.
> 
> When Hitler came along and voiced what everyone knew but were afraid to say.
> 
> He became wildly popular and was able to round up the traitorous Jews and put them in camps.
> 
> The average German supported the cleansing of society from Jewish decadence and immorality.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You're joking right?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Look it up friend.
> 
> It's in the history books
Click to expand...


Really? I am pretty familiar with that period of history and I have never seen anything closely resembling your version of history in any reputable history book. So tell me what is the source of your astute insights? Let me guess, my entire education and every book I have ever read is part of an insideous Jewish plot


----------



## Epsilon Delta

The Germans needed to blame somebody _because it obviously wasn't THEIR fault that they lost a world war_.

<_<


----------



## Sunni Man

barry1960 said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> barry1960 said:
> 
> 
> 
> You're joking right?
> 
> 
> 
> Look it up friend.
> 
> It's in the history books
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Really? I am pretty familiar with that period of history and I have never seen anything closely resembling your version of history in any reputable history book. So tell me what is the source of your astute insights? Let me guess, my entire education and every book I have ever read is part of an insideous Jewish plot
Click to expand...

JEWS WERE KEY ADVISORS of the Versailles Treaty of 1919 which carved Germany into pieces just after WWI. Rabbi Stephen Wise advised President Wilson about the impending treaty before Wilson left America for the Versailles peace conference. The Jew Bernard Baruch advised Wilson at the conference. British Prime Minister Lloyd George was advised by the Jew Phil Sassoon. French leader Georges Clemenceau was advised by his Jewish Interior Minister Georges Mandel aka Louis Rothschild.

Representing the American banking interests was Paul Warburg, the Chairman of the Federal Reserve. His brother, Max Warburg, the head of the German banking firm of Warburg and Company, was there as a representative of Germany.

By the Treaty of Versailles the German people were thoroughly humiliated. The old Austrian Empire was balkanized and divided up into allotments satisfying the political intrigues of the architects of the Treaty. The Weimar government was forced upon the German nation and the communist Jewish leaders Rosa Luxembourg and Karl Leibknecht were agitating for revolution.

The German people were not unaware that the Jewish role in the Bolshevik Revolution threatened their own national life. The historian Ernst Nolte and several other notable historians have argued that the Jewish role in the Bolshevik Revolution was an important cause in Germanys backlash against the Jews.

The Weimar government was comprised of many Jews. From the outset the Weimer government was criticized by ordinary Germans who were of the opinion that the Weimer government was allied with international Jewish bankers in signing the hated Versailles Treaty.

The famous stab-in-the-back legend soon began to circulate which rightly asserted that Germany had won the war in 1914, but had been betrayed by Jews who struck a deal with Britain to bring America into the war in exchange for the deed to Palestine.

Middle class voters soon became disillusioned with the Weimar government. Weimars constitution was written by the Jew, Hugo Preuss. The Jews under the Weimer Republic formed leftist institutions such as the Frankfurt School. Jews were theater producers, newspaper owners, poets, artists, and writers in the Weimar Republic.

SOCIAL MORES BEGAN TO DECLINE owing to Jewish dominance of the media and the arts, promoting sexual perversity and pornography. A leading artist of the time was the Jew and Spartacist communist, George Grosz, known for his pornographic paintings.

The middle class thus turned their voting habits towards Germanys National Socialist Party whose platform was to bolster Germany against the moral decline caused by influential Jews.By 1932 there were twenty times as many Jewish government officials in Germanys Weimer Republic as had existed before 1919. Zionists of international attachments were insinuating themselves into key positions in the German administrative machine.

How The Jews Prompted A German Backlash! | Real Jew News


----------



## DavidS

Sunni Man said:


> barry1960 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> 
> Look it up friend.
> 
> It's in the history books
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Really? I am pretty familiar with that period of history and I have never seen anything closely resembling your version of history in any reputable history book. So tell me what is the source of your astute insights? Let me guess, my entire education and every book I have ever read is part of an insideous Jewish plot
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> JEWS WERE KEY ADVISORS of the Versailles Treaty of 1919 which carved Germany into pieces just after WWI. Rabbi Stephen Wise advised President Wilson about the impending treaty before Wilson left America for the Versailles peace conference. The Jew Bernard Baruch advised Wilson at the conference. British Prime Minister Lloyd George was advised by the Jew Phil Sassoon. French leader Georges Clemenceau was advised by his Jewish Interior Minister Georges Mandel aka Louis Rothschild.
> 
> Representing the American banking interests was Paul Warburg, the Chairman of the Federal Reserve. His brother, Max Warburg, the head of the German banking firm of Warburg and Company, was there as a representative of Germany.
> 
> By the Treaty of Versailles the German people were thoroughly humiliated. The old Austrian Empire was balkanized and divided up into allotments satisfying the political intrigues of the architects of the Treaty. The Weimar government was forced upon the German nation and the communist Jewish leaders Rosa Luxembourg and Karl Leibknecht were agitating for revolution.
> 
> The German people were not unaware that the Jewish role in the Bolshevik Revolution threatened their own national life. The historian Ernst Nolte and several other notable historians have argued that the Jewish role in the Bolshevik Revolution was an important cause in Germanys backlash against the Jews.
> 
> The Weimar government was comprised of many Jews. From the outset the Weimer government was criticized by ordinary Germans who were of the opinion that the Weimer government was allied with international Jewish bankers in signing the hated Versailles Treaty.
> 
> The famous stab-in-the-back legend soon began to circulate which rightly asserted that Germany had won the war in 1914, but had been betrayed by Jews who struck a deal with Britain to bring America into the war in exchange for the deed to Palestine.
> 
> Middle class voters soon became disillusioned with the Weimar government. Weimars constitution was written by the Jew, Hugo Preuss. The Jews under the Weimer Republic formed leftist institutions such as the Frankfurt School. Jews were theater producers, newspaper owners, poets, artists, and writers in the Weimar Republic.
> 
> SOCIAL MORES BEGAN TO DECLINE owing to Jewish dominance of the media and the arts, promoting sexual perversity and pornography. A leading artist of the time was the Jew and Spartacist communist, George Grosz, known for his pornographic paintings.
> 
> The middle class thus turned their voting habits towards Germanys National Socialist Party whose platform was to bolster Germany against the moral decline caused by influential Jews.By 1932 there were twenty times as many Jewish government officials in Germanys Weimer Republic as had existed before 1919. Zionists of international attachments were insinuating themselves into key positions in the German administrative machine.
> 
> How The Jews Prompted A German Backlash! | Real Jew News
Click to expand...


REAL JEW NEWS???

HAHAHAHA!

That's absolutely hilarious. I've finally heard of a site that makes worldnetdaily.net look credible.


----------



## Sunni Man

I notice DavidS that you didn't /can't refute the facts in the article


----------



## Anguille

ABikerSailor said:


> Why did the Holocaust happen?
> 
> Well......after WWI, Germany was in an economic slump, and they saw all the Jews around them still doing pretty well.
> 
> Hitler saw this, and started to come up with his own way of doing things. Personally? I think he stumbled upon some arcane Kabbalah knowledge, or some other thing like that, and learned how to influence people with his presence.


 
You've studied Kabbalah too?


----------



## eots

it happened because there was a socialist government..media propaganda and gun control...oh..oh


----------



## Sunni Man

I have studied Kabbalah and own the complete works of the Zohar


----------



## Xenophon

Sunni Man said:


> If you are talking about the so called Holocaust of the Jews, then the answer is simple.
> 
> During WWI the Jewish bankers had sold out Germany causing the humiliation and defeat of Germany.
> 
> The average German citizen knew this and hated the Jews for it.
> 
> When Hitler came along and voiced what everyone knew but were afraid to say.
> 
> He became wildly popular and was able to round up the traitorous Jews and put them in camps.
> 
> The average German supported the cleansing of society from Jewish decadence and immorality.


Is that so?

If that is the reason, how did Hitler pick up his anti-Jewish hatred BEFORE the first world war happened?

Was Hitler really Kreskin?


----------



## Xenophon

BTW, Imperial Germany fell apart because the people of Germany could not take the war anymore, it had nothing to do with 'Jewish bankers', with the failure of the Kaiserschlacht offensives in early 1918 the German army had lost the win to resist effectivly and was in fact near collapse in October of 1918, which is why Germany asked for an armisistance.

Hinderberg and Lundendorf did all they could to shift blame off the army after the war, thus the myth of the 'stab in the back' was born, a major plank of Shickelgruber.


----------



## Sunni Man

Xenophon said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> 
> If you are talking about the so called Holocaust of the Jews, then the answer is simple.
> 
> During WWI the Jewish bankers had sold out Germany causing the humiliation and defeat of Germany.
> 
> The average German citizen knew this and hated the Jews for it.
> 
> When Hitler came along and voiced what everyone knew but were afraid to say.
> 
> He became wildly popular and was able to round up the traitorous Jews and put them in camps.
> 
> The average German supported the cleansing of society from Jewish decadence and immorality.
> 
> 
> 
> Is that so?
> 
> If that is the reason, how did Hitler pick up his anti-Jewish hatred BEFORE the first world war happened?
Click to expand...

Proof?


----------



## Xenophon

Sunni Man said:


> Xenophon said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> 
> If you are talking about the so called Holocaust of the Jews, then the answer is simple.
> 
> During WWI the Jewish bankers had sold out Germany causing the humiliation and defeat of Germany.
> 
> The average German citizen knew this and hated the Jews for it.
> 
> When Hitler came along and voiced what everyone knew but were afraid to say.
> 
> He became wildly popular and was able to round up the traitorous Jews and put them in camps.
> 
> The average German supported the cleansing of society from Jewish decadence and immorality.
> 
> 
> 
> Is that so?
> 
> If that is the reason, how did Hitler pick up his anti-Jewish hatred BEFORE the first world war happened?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Proof?
Click to expand...

Read 'Mein Kampf' by some guy named 'A Hitler.'

He mentions it.


----------



## Sunni Man

Xenophon said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Xenophon said:
> 
> 
> 
> Is that so?
> 
> If that is the reason, how did Hitler pick up his anti-Jewish hatred BEFORE the first world war happened?
> 
> 
> 
> Proof?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Read 'Mein Kampf' by some guy named 'A Hitler.'
> 
> He mentions it.
Click to expand...

You are the one making the claim.

I would just like to see the evidence


----------



## manu1959

Sunni Man said:


> Xenophon said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> 
> Proof?
> 
> 
> 
> Read 'Mein Kampf' by some guy named 'A Hitler.'
> 
> He mentions it.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You are the one making the claim.
> 
> I would just like to see the evidence
Click to expand...


hitler writes about it and speaks about his hatred of the jews.......not all his stories and claims check out....but hey don't let facts get in the way of a good story to rally the people to a common cause.....


----------



## Xenophon

Sunni Man said:


> Xenophon said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> 
> Proof?
> 
> 
> 
> Read 'Mein Kampf' by some guy named 'A Hitler.'
> 
> He mentions it.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You are the one making the claim.
> 
> I would just like to see the evidence
Click to expand...

Told you where to look for it, you will have to get your own copy however.

I have a german Copy from 1939 in my WWII collection BTW.


----------



## Sunni Man

You originally said "BEFORE" WWI

He wrote "Mein Kampf" after WWI

I don't care how many copies you have.

Just get your story straight


----------



## Anguille

Sunni Man said:


> I have studied Kabbalah and own the complete works of the Zohar


 
With Madonna?  

Do you read tea leaves too?


----------



## Anguille

Sunni Man said:


> I have studied Kabbalah and own the complete works of the Zohar


 
With Madonna?  

Do you read tea leaves too?


----------



## Sunni Man

Anguille said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> 
> I have studied Kabbalah and own the complete works of the Zohar
> 
> 
> 
> 
> With Madonna?
> 
> Do you read tea leaves too?
Click to expand...

No I never meet her, but yes, I was studing with the Rabbi from the Kabbalah Center were she attends.


----------



## manu1959

Sunni Man said:


> You originally said "BEFORE" WWI
> 
> He wrote "Mein Kampf" after WWI
> 
> I don't care how many copies you have.
> 
> Just get your story straight



read the book....he speaks about his dislike of jews prior to wwi.....doesn't matter when he wrote it .....he does have a memory......


----------



## Yukon

I really doubt that it did occur. Prove it. Please, just show me evidence, any evidence whatsoever to prove that 6 million Jews even existed in all of Europe prior to 1939, let alone having 6 million die in Prsion camps.


----------



## Sunni Man

Yukon said:


> I really doubt that it did occur. Prove it. Please, just show me evidence, any evidence whatsoever to prove that 6 million Jews even existed in all of Europe prior to 1939, let alone having 6 million die in Prsion camps.


Welcome Yukon

I see you don't believe in the Holohoax 

Most of the people here buy the Jewish lie


----------



## Xenophon

Sunni Man said:


> You originally said "BEFORE" WWI


Yes.



> He wrote "Mein Kampf" after WWI


Yes again.



> I don't care how many copies you have.
> 
> Just get your story straight


Story is straight, as Hitler talks about how he hated Jews in vienna before WWI.

Try reading a book, it may help you, and believe me, you need the help.


----------



## Xenophon

Yukon said:


> I really doubt that it did occur. Prove it. Please, just show me evidence, any evidence whatsoever to prove that 6 million Jews even existed in all of Europe prior to 1939, let alone having 6 million die in Prsion camps.


Since your criteria is rediculous, prove it didn't happen.

Show us evidence there was not 6 million Jews in all of Europe prior to 1939.

Show us evidence that they didn't die in prison camps.


----------



## Sunni Man

Xenophon said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> 
> You originally said "BEFORE" WWI
> 
> 
> 
> Yes.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> He wrote "Mein Kampf" after WWI
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Yes again.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I don't care how many copies you have.
> 
> Just get your story straight
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Story is straight, as Hitler talks about how he hated Jews in vienna before WWI.
> 
> Try reading a book, it may help you, and believe me, you need the help.
Click to expand...

Basically, you were caught in a lie.

Attacking me isn't going to change that fact


----------



## random3434

Read this sunni boy:

Adolf Hitler's First Antisemitic Writing, 1919


----------



## Xenophon

Sunni Man said:


> Basically, you were caught in a lie.


Either you don't understand the definition of 'lie' is, or you are really stupid.

I'll take both for 1,000 Alex.



> Attacking me isn't going to change that fact


Playing the fool all the time is tiresome, your act grows thin.


----------



## Xenophon

I might add that the king of Jewish racism in his own words tells you he hated jews before WWI, and you doubt him! 

You just reached a new definition of absurd sunniman.


----------



## random3434

Xenophon said:


> I might add that the king of Jewish racism in his own words tells you he hated jews before WWI, and you doubt him!
> 
> You just reached a new definition of absurd sunniman.



Oh, he will top it, believe me.

Facts are right there, but like you said, he just likes to play the fool. It's the thing he is best at, wouldn't you say?


----------



## random3434

The Nazis 1919-29

Adolf Hitler: A Psychological ... - Google Book Search


----------



## Modbert

Honestly, I think Sunni is just a bored troll who comes to this board daily just about because he'll get the attention he craves.

And I must say, he does screw with people in quite the fashion on here.


----------



## random3434

Modbert said:


> Honestly, I think Sunni is just a bored troll who comes to this board daily just about because he'll get the attention he craves.
> 
> And I must say, he does screw with people in quite the fashion on here.



That is true. But, there are others out there like him, some  right here in this thread, who believe the sunni boy lies.


----------



## Xenophon

Echo Zulu said:


> Xenophon said:
> 
> 
> 
> I might add that the king of Jewish racism in his own words tells you he hated jews before WWI, and you doubt him!
> 
> You just reached a new definition of absurd sunniman.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oh, he will top it, believe me.
> 
> Facts are right there, but like you said, he just likes to play the fool. It's the thing he is best at, wouldn't you say?
Click to expand...

He does an excellent caricature of a fundementalist Muslim, and in so doing hurts the image of Muslims world wide.


----------



## Modbert

Echo Zulu said:


> That is true. But, there are others out there like him, some  right here in this thread, who believe the sunni boy lies.



Could be, or they could be his troll friends. Hell, sites like 4chan beg to find people like on this site to fuck with 24/7.

Hell, I'm pretty sure Sunni got that Einstein picture from this parody website:

Jew - Encyclopedia Dramatica


----------



## manu1959

yukon......hitlers anal retentive twits kept meticulous records of everyone they killed....

sunni.....well he doesn't want to be educated......


----------



## Xenophon

Echo Zulu said:


> That is true. But, there are others out there like him, some  right here in this thread, who believe the sunni boy lies.


Hardly surprising, a good portion of modern Europe thinks the same way, they simply substitue 'Israel' for 'jew' these days.


----------



## Sunni Man

Echo Zulu said:


> Read this sunni boy:
> 
> Adolf Hitler's First Antisemitic Writing, 1919


Thank You for the effort Echo Zulu

What got this started was that Xenophon claimed Hitler was anti semitic "BEFORE" WWI

I challenged that and asked him to prove it.

He has talked all around the issue and even attacked me, but never produced any evidence.

Your article proves me correct. This first anti semitic writing of Hitler was in 1919. 

WWI ended in 1918 
__________________


----------



## Xenophon

Sunni Man said:


> Thank You for the effort Echo Zulu
> 
> What got this started was that Xenophon claimed Hitler was anti semitic "BEFORE" WWI


As hitler himself says.



> I challenged that and asked him to prove it.


Which i easily did.



> He has talked all around the issue and even attacked me, but never produced any evidence.


Now you are either blind or stupid, which is it?



> Your article proves me correct. This first anti semitic writing of Hitler was in 1919.


You can't even keep your lies straight in a post, you just said 'writing' of Hitler, which nobody claimed, as Hitler didn't write until the 1920s.



> This is after WWI


Be dishonest with someone more on your level, here, this should help:


----------



## random3434

Sunni Man said:


> Echo Zulu said:
> 
> 
> 
> Read this sunni boy:
> 
> Adolf Hitler's First Antisemitic Writing, 1919
> 
> 
> 
> Thank You for the effort Echo Zulu
> 
> What got this started was that Xenophon claimed Hitler was anti semitic "BEFORE" WWI
> 
> I challenged that and asked him to prove it.
> 
> He has talked all around the issue and even attacked me, but never produced any evidence.
> 
> Your article proves me correct. This first anti semitic writing of Hitler was in 1919.
> 
> WWI ended in 1918
> __________________
Click to expand...



So you are arguing semantics over a YEAR???????????????????????


----------



## Sunni Man

You got pawned by me Xenophon and can't stand it


----------



## random3434

Sunni Man said:


> You got* pawned *by me Xenophon and can't stand it



Hey X, I think I'll head down to the *Pawn* shop to see how much I can buy you back for!


----------



## Xenophon

Echo Zulu said:


> So you are arguing semantics over a YEAR???????????????????????


As any Historian worth anything will tell you, Adolph Hitler formed both his master race theory and his hatred of Jews during his time on the streets of Vienna around 1910-1914.

His first expression of this was his hatred of teh vienna fine arts acedmy rejecting his artwork as lacking talent, he blamed this on them being 'Jewish' controlled and not interestyed in his 'superior' German work.

Many of Hitler's ideas would be based on the works of Ernst Haeckel who expanded social darwinism's concept of survival of the fittest.


----------



## Xenophon

Sunni Man said:


> You got pawned by me Xenophon and can't stand it


It appears you don't understand the concept of 'pwned' either.

Probaly because it happens to you so often.


----------



## manu1959

well i just learned that one can not hold a belief until they write about it.....


----------



## Xenophon

Echo Zulu said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> 
> You got* pawned *by me Xenophon and can't stand it
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hey X, I think I'll head down to the *Pawn* shop to see how much I can buy you back for!
Click to expand...

He should have listened to Col Klink!


----------



## random3434

Xenophon said:


> Echo Zulu said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> 
> You got* pawned *by me Xenophon and can't stand it
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hey X, I think I'll head down to the *Pawn* shop to see how much I can buy you back for!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> He should have listened to Col Klink!
Click to expand...


Well, like Col Klink says (it should be sunni boy's mantra)


*"I Know Nothing!!!!!!!!!!!!"*


----------



## manu1959

Sunni Man said:


> Echo Zulu said:
> 
> 
> 
> Read this sunni boy:
> 
> Adolf Hitler's First Antisemitic Writing, 1919
> 
> 
> 
> Thank You for the effort Echo Zulu
> 
> What got this started was that Xenophon claimed Hitler was anti semitic "BEFORE" WWI
> 
> I challenged that and asked him to prove it.
> 
> He has talked all around the issue and even attacked me, but never produced any evidence.
> 
> Your article proves me correct. This first anti semitic writing of Hitler was in 1919.
> 
> WWI ended in 1918
> __________________
Click to expand...



technically the war was not over until the peace treaty was signed 28 June 1919... adolf hitler's first antisemitic writing was september 16, 1919 thick he was a zionist in june and and anti semite in september.....


----------



## Xenophon

Echo Zulu said:


> Xenophon said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Echo Zulu said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hey X, I think I'll head down to the *Pawn* shop to see how much I can buy you back for!
> 
> 
> 
> He should have listened to Col Klink!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Well, like Col Klink says (it should be sunni boy's mantra)
> 
> 
> *"I Know Nothing!!!!!!!!!!!!"*
Click to expand...

Sunni once posted his picture, I saved it.


----------



## Anguille

Sunni Man said:


> Anguille said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> 
> I have studied Kabbalah and own the complete works of the Zohar
> 
> 
> 
> 
> With Madonna?
> 
> Do you read tea leaves too?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> No I never meet her, but yes, I was studing with the Rabbi from the Kabbalah Center were she attends.
Click to expand...

 
Oy!  You and I have 3 degrees of seperation.


----------



## LiveUninhibited

Um, I'd cite my source, but I can't post URLs yet, apparently...

There was a lot of historical momentum behind the holocaust.  The Jews were scattered by the Diaspora of 607 BCE (Babylonian), and 70 CE (Roman). The consequence of this is that they were a significant minority in many predominantly Christian nations during the Dark Ages and beyond. Most Christians of the Dark Ages had little tolerance of those of a different faith, thus putting any non-Christian in their midst in danger. 

There were, of course, problems particular to Jewish-Christian relations. Myths of blood libel, for example, were rampant from the 12th century to the mid-20th century, and led to pogroms. 

Some would have argued that there is a certain degree of pretention and entitlement in Zionist ideology that rubs people the wrong way, though that&#8217;s a politically incorrect idea and I&#8217;d consider it a minor factor (but not _because _it's politically incorrect).

More significantly, there was the dynamics of money lending while charging interest, formerly known as usury and a sin to Catholics but not to Jews. (source can be found by looking up usury on wikipedia).



> Lateran III decreed that persons who accepted interest on loans could receive neither the sacraments nor Christian burial.[3] Pope Clement V made the belief in the right to usury heresy in 1311, and abolished all secular legislation which allowed it.[4] Pope Sixtus V condemned the practice of charging interest as "detestable to God and man, damned by the sacred canons and contrary to Christian charity."





> The Hebrew Bible regulates interest taking, but interpretations vary widely. One understanding is that Israelites were forbidden to charge interest on loans made to other Israelites, but allowed to charge interest on transactions with non-Israelites. However, the Hebrew Bible itself gives numerous examples where this provision is evaded.





> Cato in his De Re Rustica said: "And what do you think of usury?" - "What do you think of murder?"
> 
> But one must always consider that usury, in historical context, has always been inextricably linked to economic abuses, mostly of the masses and of the poor; but sometimes of the financier and royalty, as bankrupt royalty has led to many a demise, thus frowning upon lending at interest or for a euphemistic "just profit"[clarification needed]. The main moral argument is that usury creates excessive profit and gain without "labor" which is deemed "work" in the Biblical context. Profits from usury are argued not to arise from any substantial labor or work but from mere avarice, greed, trickery and manipulation. In addition, usury is said to create a divide between people due to obsession with monetary gain. Most importantly, usury is the derivation of profit from biological time, which is linked to life, considered sacred, God-given and divine, leading to excessive worrying about money instead of God, thus subjugating a God-given sanctity of life to man-made artificial notions of material wealth.





> As the Jews were ostracized from most professions by local rulers, the church and the guilds, they were pushed into marginal occupations considered socially inferior, such as tax and rent collecting and moneylending. This was said to show that Jews were insolent, greedy usurers. Natural tensions between creditors and debtors were added to social, political, religious, and economic strains.



Thus we had an unfortunate quagmire created by a conflict between the papacy and pragmatism. People in a developed economy need loans, but who is going to loan money when one cannot charge interest without going to hell? The Jews, prohibited from holding public office, entering guilds, and the like, found their niche in money lending. And they were despised for it. It wasn&#8217;t due to an avarice particular to their race, as eugenicists would later put it, but a consequence of the social facts of the middle ages that had ramifications extending well into the 20th century.

This ugliness was compounded by pseudoscientific philosophies that gained traction in the late 1800s. Particularly problematic was the eugenics, which was derived from a misinterpretation of Darwin and his peers&#8217; ideas. Other problems included Manifest Destiny, imperialism, and ultranationalism. Hitler could easily have cited America&#8217;s successful eradication of the Native Americans and enslavement of the Africans as proof that Aryans were superior and should exterminate (Jews and those who oppose Aryan dominance) or enslave (other non-Slavs) those inferior to them to make the world a place for Aryan masters. 

Make no mistake, there was nothing unique about Germany that caused the holocaust. They had a heavy concentration of these terrible ideas - but so had Imperial America, Imperial England, and Imperial Japan. The difference was contextual, i.e. the spark that was Hitler&#8217;s charisma/insanity and a perceived need for a scapegoat after the misery and shame in the aftermath of WWI. The Jews were a convenient target, and were painted as traitors in addition to their previous label as swindlers. The truth of whether any significant numbers of Jews were traitors or not would have made no difference and obviously should have been irrelevant to the fate of the entire group.

Still, we have to wonder how so many otherwise normal people can stand by and let millions get killed. I&#8217;d recommend reading Obedience to Authority by Stanley Millgram to get more insight on that.


----------



## mightypeon

The difference betwenn "The" Holocaust  and other Genocides is that Alexander, Charlemange, Caesar and Dschingis Khan did not rule a country as technologicially advanced as Germany.


----------



## DiveCon

Sunni Man said:


> You got pawned by me Xenophon and can't stand it


claiming a victory that didnt happen
he never said Hitler wrote about it before WWI, just that in his book he tells about things in his past
if you didnt have your head stuck in your ass, you MIGHT be able to understand that


----------



## DiveCon

Echo Zulu said:


> Xenophon said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Echo Zulu said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hey X, I think I'll head down to the *Pawn* shop to see how much I can buy you back for!
> 
> 
> 
> He should have listened to Col Klink!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Well, like Col Klink says (it should be sunni boy's mantra)
> 
> 
> *"I Know Nothing!!!!!!!!!!!!"*
Click to expand...

actually, it was Sgt Shultz that said that


----------



## editec

Yukon said:


> I really doubt that it did occur. Prove it. Please, just show me evidence, any evidence whatsoever to prove that 6 million Jews even existed in all of Europe prior to 1939, let alone having 6 million die in Prsion camps.


 
The Germans kept meticulous records of who they killed..

And they kept them thanks to IBM which before WWII made such record keeping possible such that the HOLOCAUST could happen.

You doubts regarding the Holocaust are baseless in light of all the evidence to support it, Yukon.

So, rather than making yourself look like an ignorant NAZI, why not just admit that you are happy that it happened?

That way you'll still look like a NAZI, but at least you won't look like a stupid NAZI.


----------



## del

Sunni Man said:


> Echo Zulu said:
> 
> 
> 
> Read this sunni boy:
> 
> Adolf Hitler's First Antisemitic Writing, 1919
> 
> 
> 
> Thank You for the effort Echo Zulu
> 
> What got this started was that Xenophon claimed Hitler was anti semitic "BEFORE" WWI
> 
> I challenged that and asked him to prove it.
> 
> He has talked all around the issue and even attacked me, but never produced any evidence.
> 
> Your article proves me correct. This first anti semitic writing of Hitler was in 1919.
> 
> WWI ended in 1918
> __________________
Click to expand...


what a fucking moron you are.


----------



## Yukon

Once again I prove my point. Disagree with the Jewish historians, challenge anything that is stated in the ZOG media and by default one is branded a Nazi. How quaint, how predictable, how politically correct......


----------



## del

Yukon said:


> Once again I prove my point. Disagree with the Jewish historians, challenge anything that is stated in the ZOG media and by default one is branded a Nazi. How quaint, how predictable, how politically correct......



ZOG, how precious.


----------



## editec

Yukon said:


> Once again I prove my point. Disagree with the Jewish historians, challenge anything that is stated in the ZOG media and by default one is branded a Nazi. How quaint, how predictable, how politically correct......


 
I am an historian.

I am not a Jew and my record of objecting to Zionism is on this board for you to verify, too.

Neither am I remotely politically correct by anyone's stardards but my own.

Nevertheless you, lad, are pretty obviously based on your own words, a goosestepping fool.


----------



## Yukon

Is a "goosestepping fool" is that the same as a dumb Nazi or a pompous historian?


----------



## Shogun

*'Jewish war victims have had enough compensation' French court says*

'Jewish war victims have had enough compensation' French court says - Times Online

Clearly, france just wants to see dead jews floating in the sea.

uh yea...


----------



## roomy

Shogun said:


> *'Jewish war victims have had enough compensation' French court says*
> 
> 'Jewish war victims have had enough compensation' French court says - Times Online
> 
> Clearly, france just wants to see dead jews floating in the sea.
> 
> uh yea...



Would they be Vichy French? fucking bastards.


----------



## Yukon

Shogun said:


> Clearly, france just wants to see dead jews floating in the sea.
> 
> uh yea...



Do they float ?


----------



## ABikerSailor

Yukon said:


> Shogun said:
> 
> 
> 
> Clearly, france just wants to see dead jews floating in the sea.
> 
> uh yea...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Do they float ?
Click to expand...


We already know Muslims do......

Shit floats.

Ask Asia.  They turned a whole bunch of those fuckers back around and towed 'em back out to sea!


----------



## Yukon

There isn't much differnce between a Jew and  Muslim. Both groups of "people" are non-Christian and since do not accept Jesus as the Son of God therefore they will be cast out and will burn in the everlasting firey pits of hell.

PRAISE JESUS !


----------



## random3434

Yukon said:


> There isn't much differnce between a Jew and  Muslim. Both groups of "people" are non-Christian and since do not accept Jesus as the Son of God therefore they will be cast out and will burn in the everlasting firey pits of hell.
> 
> PRAISE JESUS !



You forgot to add a priest, and what happens after they walked into a bar.............................................


----------



## ABikerSailor

Yukon said:


> There isn't much differnce between a Jew and  Muslim. Both groups of "people" are non-Christian and since do not accept Jesus as the Son of God therefore they will be cast out and will burn in the everlasting firey pits of hell.
> 
> PRAISE JESUS !



Learn to spell idiot.......it'll make your rantings easier to decipher.

No difference between Jew and Muslim?  Wanna bet?  Jews DO accept Yeshua (Jesus).  They recognize Him as a great tzadik, as well as a great teacher and sage.  They do not however, believe He was the Messiah, as there were still things left undone when He rose into Heaven.

Besides.......Yeshua was a Jew.  Matter of fact, He was crucified observing Passover, just like a good Jewish man would.

And.....Jews are not bound for hell......they are HaShem's chosen people.  Christians are saved if they believe in Him.

Muslims also believe in Yeshua incidentally, they just think that their prophet Mohamed (may his name forever be a curse......ptooie), was the final apex.  They were wrong incidentally, as Yeshua told people that the one following Him was a false prophet.

500 years later.....islam.

YOUR fucked up theology is the one that wants to end everything.  Ahmadinejad himself stated that he wanted to help hasten the arrival of the 13th imam.

Nope....apparently you know as much about Islam as Sunnidiot.


----------



## Yukon

*John 3:16: "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth on him should not perish, but have everlasting life." *

Those who do not believe will burn in hell. So it is written so shall it come to pass.


----------



## Sunni Man

Yukon said:


> There isn't much differnce between a Jew and  Muslim. Both groups of "people" are non-Christian and since do not accept Jesus as the Son of God therefore they will be cast out and will burn in the everlasting firey pits of hell.
> 
> PRAISE JESUS !


What about Mormons?


----------



## Yukon

What about them? They are sick people who will also burn in hell.


----------



## Sunni Man

Yukon said:


> What about them? They are sick people who will also burn in hell.


Same with Catholics?


----------



## random3434

OK, A Jew, A Muslim, A Mormon and a Catholic walk into a bar.........................


----------



## Modbert

Echo Zulu said:


> OK, A Jew, A Muslim, A Mormon and a Catholic walk into a bar.........................



And this happens:

View attachment $Funny Image 4.bmp


----------



## DiveCon

Modbert said:


> Echo Zulu said:
> 
> 
> 
> OK, A Jew, A Muslim, A Mormon and a Catholic walk into a bar.........................
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And this happens:
> 
> View attachment 6883
Click to expand...


----------



## Skeptik

Sunni Man said:


> Yukon said:
> 
> 
> 
> There isn't much differnce between a Jew and  Muslim. Both groups of "people" are non-Christian and since do not accept Jesus as the Son of God therefore they will be cast out and will burn in the everlasting firey pits of hell.
> 
> PRAISE JESUS !
> 
> 
> 
> What about Mormons?
Click to expand...


They think you have to show you believe in Jesus by following his teachings.  It is not enough for a Mormon to simply say, "Yeah, sure, I believe."


----------



## Xenophon

Yukon said:


> Once again I prove my point. Disagree with the Jewish historians, challenge anything that is stated in the ZOG media and by default one is branded a Nazi. How quaint, how predictable, how politically correct......


"Jewish historians?"

Thanks for telling us you are an anti-semite, although that was rather obvious.

Only two kinds of people don't believe there was a holocaust, morons and jew haters, and by co-incedence they are both in each group.


----------



## ABikerSailor

Cool.....now the Yakked One is spewing his crap for the Christians.

Nice counterbalance to Sunnidiot's rantings about Islam, now we've got another fanatical nutjob that left the Catholic priesthood and now gives reach arounds on the boulevard for candy bars and spare change.


----------



## jillian

Yukon said:


> There isn't much differnce between a Jew and  Muslim. Both groups of "people" are non-Christian and since do not accept Jesus as the Son of God therefore they will be cast out and will burn in the everlasting firey pits of hell.
> 
> PRAISE JESUS !



i'm sure jeshua the jewish carpenter would be so proud.


----------



## Sky Dancer

I thought this was going to be a serious discussion about the causes of the Holocaust.  What happened?


----------



## editec

Sky Dancer said:


> I thought this was going to be a serious discussion about the causes of the Holocaust. What happened?


 
Same damned thing that happens every time any issue involving Jews comes up.

The NAZIs come out from under the rocks to spew their goofy nonsense.

You'd think after the vermin brownshirts got their asses handed to them in WWII _by other WHITE people_, these pathetic losers would figure it out --n obody much CARES about their fairy tales.


----------



## Sky Dancer

Too bad.  It's a worthy topic.  I stick around the forum because once and awhile, when the trolls are asleep a few of us can actually discuss a serious subject in some depth.  It doesn't last long, unfortunately.


----------



## Tech_Esq

Sky Dancer said:


> Too bad.  It's a worthy topic.  I stick around the forum because once and awhile, when the trolls are asleep a few of us can actually discuss a serious subject in some depth.  It doesn't last long, unfortunately.



Hey let's go off-topic and get back to the topic.

I think there were a number of good points raised in this thread. But I wonder if they can be synthesized. I think some legend is creeping into history. Lies told often enough etc. Much of it having to do with the NAZI propaganda that they generated at the time. It clutters the record. Ginned up history in the interwar era distracting from what actually occurred never mind  causation and motivation.

If you follow Hitler's twisted mind from point to point and then try to extrapolate what you find to a logical conclusion, I think you'd get dizzy. Someone mentioned the Madagascar Plan. While this was a plan considered before the war, I don't think it was ever considered by Hitler. If you look at what the world would look like in Hitler's mind upon successful conclusion of the war (circa 1940-1941), he's offering to divide the world up between the Japanese, to a much smaller extent, the hapless Italians, Germany and offering a zone to Stalin and the Russians. He talks of allowing the Russians to go straight south and take at a minimum Afghanistan and Iran probably Iraq and India as well. Of course the Russians called bullshit and demanded the Bosporus and Turkey. That freaked the Germans out because the Romanian oil fields were already in danger from the Russians and the last thing they needed was Russians in Turkey. 

Getting back to the topic....so where does that leave the Jews? Would Hitler have been content with Jews in a backwater of his world Empire? Seems unlikely. No, the extermination of the Jews was a natural, maybe necessary extension of  both the rhetoric of the Nazis and their political system. Both were necessary to arrive at the necessity to round up and kill the Jews. 

Why? The rhetoric says, "we're in a bad way because of all these Jews. They are responsible for monstrous thing after monstrous thing." Ok, well, under Nazi rule, the government has complete power. So, Mr. Hitler, if you believe this, you MUST do something about it. If you don't, then why should people believe you? You are either exposing them to this great danger when you have the power to prevent it, or it's all a lie.

So, he has to do something. The beginning of the concentration camps in Germany. Of course this was not the only danger he was "protecting the Reich" from so the Jews had some company. As Germany became and empire and the Jews came streaming in to the camps, it was clear something had to be done. There would be no way to hold so many people as were likely to need holding. So, again, if the truth is that Jews are so bad, they must be contained or it gives the lie to the rhetoric. After 10 years of analogizing Jews with vermin, how difficult was the step to take? Not so hard, right?


----------



## Sunni Man

Hitler was right, in that Germany was in bad shape because of the Jews.

They had economically back stabbed the German people and economy for years.

Hitler didn't have to convince the German people of anything.

They already knew the truth about the Jews, and were glad to have a leader who will take action against them.


----------



## editec

Sky Dancer said:


> Too bad. It's a worthy topic. I stick around the forum because once and awhile, when the trolls are asleep a few of us can actually discuss a serious subject in some depth. It doesn't last long, unfortunately.


 
I spent a great long trime trying to figure out why the holocaust happened in Germany back when I was in the NAV.

I have come to the conclusion that each such event has it's own internal logic, but aside from the obvious things like xenophobia, original sin, and the value of scapegoating to create unity, there was nothing exceptional about the NAZI experience.

Societies truly do go mad sometimes, especially when they are failing their people.  

Ours is going a bit round the bend right now, in fact.

Think of it much like an infection.  

the body typically always had pathogens which are toxic.

But a healthy body keeps them under control.

When something happens to that body that makes it too weak to fight off the pathogens one of more of them can make the body ill.

So it is with the toxic ideas which we coexist with right here here in the USA.

They have no chance of infecting most of us unless the society becomes so strained to people are looking for something or someone  to blame for the problems facing them.

If the leaders of the nation are of the mindset that is sociopathic enough to use some excuse to deflect their own failings, they can encourage that pathogenic idea to their advantage.

Hell folks, we've seen numberous examples written by people we speak to every day where these weak minded nitwits expressed their olonging for the day that they can start shooting liberals, have we not?

These diseased minds that we share this nation with are no threat unless the elite decide that they can foster this toxic thinking into an advantage for themselves.

Rush Limbough and that ilk are the kinds of tools that Goebels would have understood perfectly.

People wonder why liberals haven't exactly taken to Air America.

That's because liberals generally recognize that sort of blind hatred that they would spew for what it is.

Of course now, now that the Banking class has screwed up so badly, one could see how, if things got really bad, they might elect to create another scapegoat class out of some perverted revisionist history, too.

It can happen here...it can happen _anywhere _there aren't enogh brave souls willing to stand up against the lying scum who manipulate public opinion.


----------



## Tech_Esq

Kind of a strange conclusion there Edi...

I don't see Rush as either a Goebbels or a "hate-spewer" I would suggest those who do haven't logged much time with him. Don't get me wrong, I'm not a "ditto-head" there are points of view that we mutually hold. There are also several we are diametrically opposed on. On those issues, I don't feel like Rush is spewing hate about me or inciting people in any particular way other than to oppose my point of view. But, I get that every time I watch the network "news." 

Maybe people on the left are just so used to hearing the pleasant sound of everyone agreeing with their point of view, they are simply horrified when they find someone out of step the "the obvious truth."

In any case, the thing that I found most shocking about your post is that you point the finger at the people out of power. Essentially, the politically neutered. Seemingly the world would be a better place if they remained that way permanently. Maybe it would be better if they were kept away from the "sane" people somewhere?

I think we are at a turning point in this country politically. At various times in our country, it has happened that we become sharply politically polarized until a new "accepted" political reality takes hold and everyone settles down.

I don't think that is a pre-cursor to genocide.


----------



## Sky Dancer

Hmm.

The place I look to is how it happens that German citizens give themselves over to a dictator and blindly follow him into war.  They also turned their back on and ignored the extermination of the Jews.  Hitler demonized Jews, Gypsies and Homosexuals.  They became less than human.

He used propaganda effectively.  The German people felt defeated, the economy was poor, they looked for a scapegoat and Hitler was able to create a scapegoat as well as whip up a spirit of nationalism.

German families at the time, were highly authoritarian.  People were socialized to be obedient.  

Of course, there are other forces econonomically and politically that led up to the rise of the Nazi Party.  But consider this.  Most Germans thought the Nazi's were an extreme fringe group that couldn't possible come into power.

It's important to study how the Holocaust happened.  Holocausts have cotinued to occur since that time.  Consider Rwanda, consider the Balkans.


----------



## Sunni Man

You guys are so deluded.

Hitler didn't have to create a scapegoat.

Everyone already knew the Jews for what they were.

The German people were not blindly following Hitler.

They were one of the most educated people in Europe.

The people could think for themselves and knew Hitler was telling the truth.


----------



## Tech_Esq

Sky Dancer said:


> Hmm.
> 
> The place I look to is how it happens that German citizens give themselves over to a dictator and blindly follow him into war.  They also turned their back on and ignored the extermination of the Jews.  Hitler demonized Jews, Gypsies and Homosexuals.  They became less than human.
> 
> He used propaganda effectively.  The German people felt defeated, the economy was poor, they looked for a scapegoat and Hitler was able to create a scapegoat as well as whip up a spirit of nationalism.
> 
> German families at the time, were highly authoritarian.  People were socialized to be obedient.
> 
> Of course, there are other forces econonomically and politically that led up to the rise of the Nazi Party.  But consider this.  Most Germans thought the Nazi's were an extreme fringe group that couldn't possible come into power.
> 
> It's important to study how the Holocaust happened.  Holocausts have cotinued to occur since that time.  Consider Rwanda, consider the Balkans.



The items you cite are of course true. But, how do you generalize what you find there to inform your study of how genocide occurs in other places. 

For instance, Stalin killed 20 million mostly Ukrainians during collectivization in the 1920s-1930s. How does knowing what the Nazis did inform you about the causation of this calamity, or does it at all? The killing fields of Cambodia or the communists in Mao's China. 

Is it really political purification that we're talking about? However this is defined by the political entity that is seeking purification.


----------



## DiveCon

editec said:


> Sky Dancer said:
> 
> 
> 
> Too bad. It's a worthy topic. I stick around the forum because once and awhile, when the trolls are asleep a few of us can actually discuss a serious subject in some depth. It doesn't last long, unfortunately.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I spent a great long trime trying to figure out why the holocaust happened in Germany back when I was in the NAV.
> 
> I have come to the conclusion that each such event has it's own internal logic, but aside from the obvious things like xenophobia, original sin, and the value of scapegoating to create unity, there was nothing exceptional about the NAZI experience.
> 
> Societies truly do go mad sometimes, especially when they are failing their people.
> 
> Ours is going a bit round the bend right now, in fact.
> 
> Think of it much like an infection.
> 
> the body typically always had pathogens which are toxic.
> 
> But a healthy body keeps them under control.
> 
> When something happens to that body that makes it too weak to fight off the pathogens one of more of them can make the body ill.
> 
> So it is with the toxic ideas which we coexist with right here here in the USA.
> 
> They have no chance of infecting most of us unless the society becomes so strained to people are looking for something or someone  to blame for the problems facing them.
> 
> If the leaders of the nation are of the mindset that is sociopathic enough to use some excuse to deflect their own failings, they can encourage that pathogenic idea to their advantage.
> 
> Hell folks, we've seen numberous examples written by people we speak to every day where these weak minded nitwits expressed their olonging for the day that they can start shooting liberals, have we not?
> 
> These diseased minds that we share this nation with are no threat unless the elite decide that they can foster this toxic thinking into an advantage for themselves.
> 
> Rush Limbough and that ilk are the kinds of tools that Goebels would have understood perfectly.
> 
> People wonder why liberals haven't exactly taken to Air America.
> 
> That's because liberals generally recognize that sort of blind hatred that they would spew for what it is.
> 
> Of course now, now that the Banking class has screwed up so badly, one could see how, if things got really bad, they might elect to create another scapegoat class out of some perverted revisionist history, too.
> 
> It can happen here...it can happen _anywhere _there aren't enogh brave souls willing to stand up against the lying scum who manipulate public opinion.
Click to expand...

except Rush doesnt spew the kind of bullshit you would hear on err Amurika

you are daft if you think its even remotely comparable, that tells me like usual, if you have ever listened to Rush, it hasnt been much


----------



## roomy

Sunni Man said:


> Hitler was right, in that Germany was in bad shape because of the Jews.
> 
> They had economically back stabbed the German people and economy for years.
> 
> Hitler didn't have to convince the German people of anything.
> 
> They already knew the truth about the Jews, and were glad to have a leader who will take action against them.



What action you fucking muppet? You deny the holocaust for years then you admit it happened and then you deny it, you are a taciturn fool.


----------



## mightypeon

LiveUninhibited said:


> Um, I'd cite my source, but I can't post URLs yet, apparently...
> 
> There was a lot of historical momentum behind the holocaust.  The Jews were scattered by the Diaspora of 607 BCE (Babylonian), and 70 CE (Roman). The consequence of this is that they were a significant minority in many predominantly Christian nations during the Dark Ages and beyond. Most Christians of the Dark Ages had little tolerance of those of a different faith, thus putting any non-Christian in their midst in danger.
> 
> There were, of course, problems particular to Jewish-Christian relations. Myths of blood libel, for example, were rampant from the 12th century to the mid-20th century, and led to pogroms.
> 
> Some would have argued that there is a certain degree of pretention and entitlement in Zionist ideology that rubs people the wrong way, though thats a politically incorrect idea and Id consider it a minor factor (but not _because _it's politically incorrect).
> 
> More significantly, there was the dynamics of money lending while charging interest, formerly known as usury and a sin to Catholics but not to Jews. (source can be found by looking up usury on wikipedia).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Lateran III decreed that persons who accepted interest on loans could receive neither the sacraments nor Christian burial.[3] Pope Clement V made the belief in the right to usury heresy in 1311, and abolished all secular legislation which allowed it.[4] Pope Sixtus V condemned the practice of charging interest as "detestable to God and man, damned by the sacred canons and contrary to Christian charity."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Hebrew Bible regulates interest taking, but interpretations vary widely. One understanding is that Israelites were forbidden to charge interest on loans made to other Israelites, but allowed to charge interest on transactions with non-Israelites. However, the Hebrew Bible itself gives numerous examples where this provision is evaded.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cato in his De Re Rustica said: "And what do you think of usury?" - "What do you think of murder?"
> 
> But one must always consider that usury, in historical context, has always been inextricably linked to economic abuses, mostly of the masses and of the poor; but sometimes of the financier and royalty, as bankrupt royalty has led to many a demise, thus frowning upon lending at interest or for a euphemistic "just profit"[clarification needed]. The main moral argument is that usury creates excessive profit and gain without "labor" which is deemed "work" in the Biblical context. Profits from usury are argued not to arise from any substantial labor or work but from mere avarice, greed, trickery and manipulation. In addition, usury is said to create a divide between people due to obsession with monetary gain. Most importantly, usury is the derivation of profit from biological time, which is linked to life, considered sacred, God-given and divine, leading to excessive worrying about money instead of God, thus subjugating a God-given sanctity of life to man-made artificial notions of material wealth.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As the Jews were ostracized from most professions by local rulers, the church and the guilds, they were pushed into marginal occupations considered socially inferior, such as tax and rent collecting and moneylending. This was said to show that Jews were insolent, greedy usurers. Natural tensions between creditors and debtors were added to social, political, religious, and economic strains.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Thus we had an unfortunate quagmire created by a conflict between the papacy and pragmatism. People in a developed economy need loans, but who is going to loan money when one cannot charge interest without going to hell? The Jews, prohibited from holding public office, entering guilds, and the like, found their niche in money lending. And they were despised for it. It wasnt due to an avarice particular to their race, as eugenicists would later put it, but a consequence of the social facts of the middle ages that had ramifications extending well into the 20th century.
> 
> This ugliness was compounded by pseudoscientific philosophies that gained traction in the late 1800s. Particularly problematic was the eugenics, which was derived from a misinterpretation of Darwin and his peers ideas. Other problems included Manifest Destiny, imperialism, and ultranationalism. Hitler could easily have cited Americas successful eradication of the Native Americans and enslavement of the Africans as proof that Aryans were superior and should exterminate (Jews and those who oppose Aryan dominance) or enslave (other non-Slavs) those inferior to them to make the world a place for Aryan masters.
> 
> Make no mistake, there was nothing unique about Germany that caused the holocaust. They had a heavy concentration of these terrible ideas - but so had Imperial America, Imperial England, and Imperial Japan. The difference was contextual, i.e. the spark that was Hitlers charisma/insanity and a perceived need for a scapegoat after the misery and shame in the aftermath of WWI. The Jews were a convenient target, and were painted as traitors in addition to their previous label as swindlers. The truth of whether any significant numbers of Jews were traitors or not would have made no difference and obviously should have been irrelevant to the fate of the entire group.
> 
> Still, we have to wonder how so many otherwise normal people can stand by and let millions get killed. Id recommend reading Obedience to Authority by Stanley Millgram to get more insight on that.
Click to expand...


A very good post, only a slight tidbit is not right.
There was another group of "money lenders" available, in this case the Knightly Orders.
Both the Teutonic Knights and the Knights Templar were able to lend money with "interests" disguised as "fees". In the case of the Knights templar, not even their military might and their reputation as crusaders saved them from the Greed of the Crown of France and the Pope (which both were indepted to them). The Teutons saw the writing on the wall (as a matter of fact, they barely fought of a similiar law suit by the pope, what saved them were good Hanseatic lawyers and the fact that the Holy Roman Emperor liked neither the pope nor the King of France) and set up a base in Prussia, out of reach of most Christian powers.

However, abusing a knightly order was by far more difficult than abusing socially ostracised Jews, so especially royalty (which could abuse Jews without a lot of problems) prefered to borrow from Jews in most cases.


----------



## Sunni Man

roomy said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hitler was right, in that Germany was in bad shape because of the Jews.
> 
> They had economically back stabbed the German people and economy for years.
> 
> Hitler didn't have to convince the German people of anything.
> 
> They already knew the truth about the Jews, and were glad to have a leader who will take action against them.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What action you fucking muppet? You deny the holocaust for years then you admit it happened and then you deny it, you are a taciturn fool.
Click to expand...

Yes, Hitler rounded up the Jews

Yes, they were put into work camps and many died from over work, starvation, and disease.

No, there wasn't any gas chambers for execution.

And , the 6 million figure is a highly inflated number

In other words, there was NO holocaust.

Clear?


----------



## roomy

Sunni Man said:


> roomy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hitler was right, in that Germany was in bad shape because of the Jews.
> 
> They had economically back stabbed the German people and economy for years.
> 
> Hitler didn't have to convince the German people of anything.
> 
> They already knew the truth about the Jews, and were glad to have a leader who will take action against them.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What action you fucking muppet? You deny the holocaust for years then you admit it happened and then you deny it, you are a taciturn fool.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Yes, Hitler rounded up the Jews
> 
> Yes, they were put into work camps and many died from over work, starvation, and disease.
> 
> No, there wasn't any gas chambers for execution.
> 
> And , the 6 million figure is a highly inflated number
> 
> In other words, there was NO holocaust.
> 
> Clear?
Click to expand...


How many were beaten to death?

How many were hung?

How many were shot?

How many were starved to death?

How many died of disease?

How many died due to experiments?

How many were burned to death?

How many were gassed to death?

How many deaths make a holocaust?

You can repeat your half hearted denials until you are blue in the face but in effect you say nothing.Even you seem tired of your own blatherings and earlier in the thread admitted the holocaust so toddle along and try to peddle your crap elswhere, I have grown as tired of it as I think you have.


----------



## Tech_Esq

Yes. It's clear. You are a moron. 

Keep posting if you want more confirmation.


----------



## Sunni Man

roomy said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> roomy said:
> 
> 
> 
> What action you fucking muppet? You deny the holocaust for years then you admit it happened and then you deny it, you are a taciturn fool.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, Hitler rounded up the Jews
> 
> Yes, they were put into work camps and many died from over work, starvation, and disease.
> 
> No, there wasn't any gas chambers for execution.
> 
> And , the 6 million figure is a highly inflated number
> 
> In other words, there was NO holocaust.
> 
> Clear?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> How many were beaten to death?
> 
> How many were hung?
> 
> How many were shot?
> 
> How many were starved to death?
> 
> How many died of disease?
> 
> How many died due to experiments?
> 
> How many were burned to death?
> 
> How many were gassed to death?
> 
> How many deaths make a holocaust?
> 
> You can repeat your half hearted denials until you are blue in the face but in effect you say nothing.Even you seem tired of your own blatherings and earlier in the thread admitted the holocaust so toddle along and try to peddle your crap elswhere, I have grown as tired of it as I think you have.
Click to expand...

I estimate the number at 2 to 3 hundred thousand killed.


----------



## roomy

Sunni Man said:


> roomy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, Hitler rounded up the Jews
> 
> Yes, they were put into work camps and many died from over work, starvation, and disease.
> 
> No, there wasn't any gas chambers for execution.
> 
> And , the 6 million figure is a highly inflated number
> 
> In other words, there was NO holocaust.
> 
> Clear?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How many were beaten to death?
> 
> How many were hung?
> 
> How many were shot?
> 
> How many were starved to death?
> 
> How many died of disease?
> 
> How many died due to experiments?
> 
> How many were burned to death?
> 
> How many were gassed to death?
> 
> How many deaths make a holocaust?
> 
> You can repeat your half hearted denials until you are blue in the face but in effect you say nothing.Even you seem tired of your own blatherings and earlier in the thread admitted the holocaust so toddle along and try to peddle your crap elswhere, I have grown as tired of it as I think you have.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I estimate the number at 2 to 3 hundred thousand killed.
Click to expand...



Give it a rest Sunni before you start believing the trolling garbage you keep posting.


----------



## ABikerSailor

Sunnidiot will believe anything that comes from a radical islamic website.


----------



## roomy

ABikerSailor said:


> Sunnidiot will believe anything that comes from a radical islamic website.



He does this for perverted laughs, he doesn't believe it.


----------



## Yukon

The Germans simply forced Jewish people to work in work-camps and they were paid. The fact is that the Jews couldnt do a "good-days-work" and as a result many of them died. To state that the Germans exterminated them is not true. They died from hard-work.


----------



## manu1959

Yukon said:


> The Germans simply forced Jewish people to work in work-camps and they were paid. The fact is that the Jews couldnt do a "good-days-work" and as a result many of them died. To state that the Germans exterminated them is not true. They died from hard-work.



forced them to work in work camps and they were paid.......then they died from hard work....

interesting.....you ever been to any of the camps.....


----------



## manu1959

i have another question.....if this never happened why did the nazis create records that show that it did.....


----------



## DiveCon

manu1959 said:


> i have another question.....if this never happened why did the nazis create records that show that it did.....


well, clearly the ZOG forced them to lie and claim they killed millions


----------



## Sunni Man

DiveCon said:


> manu1959 said:
> 
> 
> 
> i have another question.....if this never happened why did the nazis create records that show that it did.....
> 
> 
> 
> well, clearly the ZOG forced them to lie and claim they killed millions
Click to expand...

That is 100% correct!!!!


----------



## DiveCon

Sunni Man said:


> DiveCon said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> manu1959 said:
> 
> 
> 
> i have another question.....if this never happened why did the nazis create records that show that it did.....
> 
> 
> 
> well, clearly the ZOG forced them to lie and claim they killed millions
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> That is 100% correct!!!!
Click to expand...

yeah, they made them falsify their own records while the jews were being killed


----------



## manu1959

Sunni Man said:


> DiveCon said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> manu1959 said:
> 
> 
> 
> i have another question.....if this never happened why did the nazis create records that show that it did.....
> 
> 
> 
> well, clearly the ZOG forced them to lie and claim they killed millions
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> That is 100% correct!!!!
Click to expand...


really what did the jews have on the germans to trick them into rounding them up and putting them in these club med work camps and or deporting them to far off lands.....

or did the germans fake the camps as well.....and when the allied forces showed up in the camps where did all the skinny and dead people come from....or was that all faked as well....


----------



## Xenophon

Yukon said:


> The Germans simply forced Jewish people to work in work-camps and they were paid. The fact is that the Jews couldnt do a "good-days-work" and as a result many of them died. To state that the Germans exterminated them is not true. They died from hard-work.



Imbecile.


----------



## Sunni Man

Actually, he is right.

The Germans did issue "concentration camp money" to the prisoners.

www.judicial-inc.biz/Auschwitz.htm

There is a sample of them on this site.


----------



## DiveCon

Sunni Man said:


> Actually, he is right.
> 
> The Germans did issue "concentration camp money" to the prisoners.
> 
> Auschwitz and the holocaust
> 
> There is a sample of them on this site.


yeah, gotta love them calling a creamtory a "camp kitchen"


----------



## Xenophon

Sunni Man said:


> Actually, he is right.
> 
> The Germans did issue "concentration camp money" to the prisoners.
> 
> Auschwitz and the holocaust
> 
> There is a sample of them on this site.



Bigger imbecile.


----------



## Sunni Man

Xenophon said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> 
> Actually, he is right.
> 
> The Germans did issue "concentration camp money" to the prisoners.
> 
> Auschwitz and the holocaust
> 
> There is a sample of them on this site.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Bigger imbecile.
Click to expand...

Google "concentration camp money" and you will see plenty of sites with examples of the money given to inmates for purchases within the camp.

The Holocaust myth is starting to fall apart!!!


----------



## manu1959

Sunni Man said:


> Xenophon said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> 
> Actually, he is right.
> 
> The Germans did issue "concentration camp money" to the prisoners.
> 
> Auschwitz and the holocaust
> 
> There is a sample of them on this site.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Bigger imbecile.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Google "concentration camp money" and you will see plenty of sites with examples of the money given to inmates for purchases within the camp.
> 
> The Holocaust myth is starting to fall apart!!!
Click to expand...


why were the jews in the camps...


----------



## Sunni Man

manu1959 said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Xenophon said:
> 
> 
> 
> Bigger imbecile.
> 
> 
> 
> Google "concentration camp money" and you will see plenty of sites with examples of the money given to inmates for purchases within the camp.
> 
> The Holocaust myth is starting to fall apart!!!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> why were the jews in the camps...
Click to expand...

To work in the factorys


----------



## Xenophon

Sunni Man said:


> Google "concentration camp money" and you will see plenty of sites with examples of the money given to inmates for purchases within the camp.
> 
> The Holocaust myth is starting to fall apart!!!


Monumental imbecile.


----------



## manu1959

Sunni Man said:


> manu1959 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> 
> Google "concentration camp money" and you will see plenty of sites with examples of the money given to inmates for purchases within the camp.
> 
> The Holocaust myth is starting to fall apart!!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> why were the jews in the camps...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> To work in the factorys
Click to expand...


why were they forced to do that.....


----------



## Sunni Man

Xenophon said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> 
> Google "concentration camp money" and you will see plenty of sites with examples of the money given to inmates for purchases within the camp.
> 
> The Holocaust myth is starting to fall apart!!!
> 
> 
> 
> Monumental imbecile.
Click to expand...

It's funny how all you can do is call names, but can't refute any of the facts in the site.


----------



## Xenophon

> *Despite the fact that the tens of thousands of prisoners who survived Auschwitz were witnesses to the crimes committed there; despite the fact that they left behind thousands of depositions, accounts, and memoirs; despite the fact that considerable quantities of documents, photographs, and material objects remain from the camp&#8212;despite all of this, there are people and organizations who deny that hundreds of thousands of people were murdered in this camp, that gas chambers operated there, or that the crematoria could burn several thousand corpses per day. In other words, they deny that Auschwitz was the scene of genocide.
> 
> Auschwitz is, in many ways, the main target of attacks by deniers, yet the denial of genocide, the existence of the gas chambers, and mass murder nevertheless extends to all the camps, the death camps, and, generally, the mass killing of the Jews.
> 
> The scale of this phenomena and its social harmfulness have been acknowledged in many countries as a threat to the social order and made punishable under the law. The legal procedures launched every so often against the deniers prove that the problem is real. It a problem not only for public prosecutors, but also a challenge for historians and educational institutions.
> 
> There is nothing new about denial of the crime of genocide or silence about genocide. From the beginning of the war, mainly for political reasons, the Nazis themselves did everything they could to keep international public opinion, and above all the Allied and neutral countries, but also the potential victims, in the dark about the extermination of people in the occupied countries.
> 
> Among themselves, however, the narrow circle of the Nazi ruling elite did not conceal these criminal acts.
> 
> Addressing high ranking officers in Pozna&#324; on October 4, 1943, Himmler, the head of the German police and the SS, said that &#8220;Most of you here know what it means when 100 corpses lie next to each other, when 500 lie there. . .. This is an honor roll in our history which has never been and never will be put in writing&#8221; (IMT translation).
> 
> What did the Nazis do to conceal the crime they had committed? What did they do so that this &#8220;honor roll in our history&#8221;&#8212;or roll of shame&#8212;would never be put in writing?
> 
> First: they limited the written record of their crime to a minimum;
> 
> Second: they falsified the record, to the degree that technical and organizations made its existence necessary;
> 
> Third: they destroyed the superfluous and the most incriminating part of the record, once it had served its purpose, in the final phase of the Third Reich. They destroyed not only documents. They also destroyed the mass killing apparatus and liquidated the witnesses.
> 
> 
> Holocaust and genocide denial after the war
> 
> The process of covering up and denying the crime of genocide, which began during the war, continued afterwards and is still going on today.
> 
> The apologists of Nazism have taken on this role for ideological, political, and commercial reasons. There is no need to add that the people who deny German crimes state that their only motivation is the desire for historical truth, and that they are defending the honor of the German people&#8212;thereby equating the war criminals with the German people.
> 
> Those who attempt to attribute patriotic motives to the collaborators with the German war criminals, while negating the crimes committed by these collaborators and portraying them in an honorable light, are acting in a similar way.
> 
> In its ideological aspect, the denial of the Holocaust of the Jews is a symptom of the continuing viability of antisemitism in some segments of society. This denial takes various forms: from literature, through the mass media, to films and art. The literature that denies the Holocaust and genocide sometimes takes the form of pseudo-scientific studies furnished with scholarly apparatus in the form of footnotes, extensive bibliographies, and indexes, intended to create an impression of credibility and full objectivity. More frequently, however, these are essays dripping with irony, sarcasm, and mockery. This kind of denial arises out of a certain world-view based on prejudices, xenophobia, and nationalism. People with such attitudes deny the Holocaust and genocide because these facts can serve as sources of spiritual and political empathy with the Jews&#8212;even though the deniers themselves know that the Holocaust took place and, what is more, approve of the Holocaust because they regard it as justified by the &#8220;guilt&#8221; of the Jews.
> 
> In its political aspect, Holocaust denial aims at rehabilitating fascism and autocracy as real alternatives to democracy. The apologists for fascism and autocracy (especially in the totalitarian version, where it dominates all aspects of public and private life) are aware that they will never have any chance of gaining public support as long as people associate fascism and autocracy with the Holocaust.
> 
> Because they regard the continuing presence of antisemitism as a source of support for their efforts, the deniers often take great pains to ignore all the other cases of genocide that affected non-Jews&#8212;such as, for instance, the tens of thousands of Germans murdered in the gas chambers as part of the so-called euthanasia campaign.
> 
> Finally, there is a third motivation for Holocaust denial: the commercial one. The producers and distributors of denial books, leaflets, and video and audio material make very good money from their trade. Part of the profit comes from sales, and part comes from donations from sources that may be overt, but are often anonymous.
> 
> The denial of the Holocaust and genocide take many forms, from simply ignoring obvious facts by manipulating the sources, through minimizing the dimensions of genocide, to trivializing and rationalizing genocide by analogy and claiming that it is an acceptable example of the kinds of things that happen in wartime.
> 
> The deniers of the Holocaust and genocide attack three facts in particular:
> 
> the existence of the gas chambers
> the capacity of the crematoria in the camps, which far exceeded the natural death rate
> the enormous scale of the crime.
> According to Professor Yisrael Gutman of the Yad Vashem Memorial Institute in Israel, the use of the term &#8220;Polish concentration camps&#8221; is a form of Holocaust denial. It is a conscious or unconscious way of changing victims into perpetrators and an attempt to blur the question of responsibility for the crime.
> 
> The aim of denying the existence of the gas chambers is, first, to negate the mass scale of the crime of genocide. The second aim is to make it easier to contend that people have always been killed on a greater or lesser scale throughout history, and that the things that the Nazis did during the Second World War were hardly exceptional, but rather examples of the kind of repression that always occurs during war.
> 
> The prime evidence for the deniers&#8217; contention that there were no gas chambers in Auschwitz used to be an account by one of the Auschwitz guards, Sonderführer Thies Christophersen (transcribed in the presence of attorney Manfred Röder). Published in the form of a brochure titled Auschwitz Lüge (Auschwitz Is a Lie) in 1973, Christophersen&#8217;s assertions became a &#8220;classic&#8221; of neo-Nazi propaganda. The SS man stated categorically that, as an eyewitness in Auschwitz, he never saw any gas chambers there. Christophersen also claimed that reports of cruelty in the camp were a lie, and that those who opposed Hitler during the war were traitors. Auschwitz, he asserted, was no death camp, but instead an ordinary industrial plant where &#8220;internees&#8221; were treated according to the regulations, and gas chambers the product of diseased imagination.
> 
> Since the end of the 1980s, genocide deniers have been appealing to more &#8220;objective&#8221; proofs, namely the results of chemical analysis of plaster samples taken from the walls of the gas chambers. Teams of pseudo-experts posing as tourists clandestinely gouge chunks of plaster from the walls of the gas chambers and later submit them to chemical analysis for the presence of hydrogen cyanide compounds. The quantity of these compounds is always, of course, too small to state that people were killed in the gas chambers. What is more, the deniers regard these analyses as clear proof that no one was killed by gas there.
> 
> The best known &#8220;expert analysis&#8221; of this variety is the so-called &#8220;Leuchter Report,&#8221; issued by an American manufacturer of execution equipment and proclaimed by the deniers in 1988 as a revelation on an international scale and a watershed in perceptions of Auschwitz. Leuchter states that there were far fewer compounds of hydrogen cyanide in the walls of the gas chambers at Auschwitz than in the walls of the disinfection chambers, and concludes that Zyklon B was not used to kill people, but rather, only sporadically, for disinfection.
> 
> In fact, the causes of these discrepancies include the different time periods for exposure to hydrogen cyanide in the disinfection chambers and the gas chambers. The gas was used to kill people in the gas chambers for half an hour a day, while the duration of disinfection in the disinfection chambers was, in line with the standard procedure, 24 hours&#8212;that is, 48 times as long.
> 
> Furthermore, the disinfection chambers are located inside buildings that are still intact, while the walls of the Birkenau gas chambers are in ruin and have been exposed constantly to the weather, which dilutes the concentration of the compounds of hydrogen cyanide.
> 
> The &#8220;Leuchter Report&#8221; contains a range of other mendacious assertions and speculation intended to call into question the fact that the gas chambers were used to kill people, and the crematoria to burn corpses on a mass scale.
> 
> Leuchter claims that only 278 people could fit in one gas chamber. He came up with this figure on the basis of the fictitious assumption that a person in a standing position takes up almost a square meter of floor space (0.836 sq. m.), while in fact many people were squeezed into each square meter of the gas chamber.
> 
> Even if the gas chambers did in fact exist, according to Leuchter, only 278 people could be killed in one of them, and not 2 thousand. Furthermore, he claims that this could not be done every day, but rather once a week. According to Leuchter, it took a week to air out the gas chamber. This is a totally groundless assumption with no support either from experiments or from the historical sources. Regardless of the fact that the use of gas masks made it possible to start dragging the corpses out of the gas chamber only 20 to 30 minutes after the introduction of the gas, and that some of the gas chambers were equipped with mechanical ventilation, the claim that it took a week to air out a gas chamber is contradicted by extant regulations, issued by the camp administration, about the safety measures to be used during disinfection with Zyklon B. An order from the commandant on August 12, 1942 reminds SS men that they are forbidden to enter rooms being aired out after the use of Zyklon B for 5 hours.
> 
> The &#8220;Leuchter Report&#8221; also questions the capacity&#8212;the throughput&#8212;of the crematoria.  On the basis of data about the procedures used in civilian crematoria, where the corpses are burned one at a time and completely (as opposed to the way they were burned in Auschwitz&#8212;several at a time and not completely, with mechanical grinding used to reduce unburned bones to powder), Leuchter states that 714 bodies per week could be burned in one crematorium (II or III), and, &#8220;realistically,&#8221; 315 per week.
> 
> This is contradicted not only by statements from former prisoners and Auschwitz commandant himself. The basic German document on crematorium throughput, prepared by the Central Construction Board in Auschwitz on June 28, 1943, states that the five crematoria in the Auschwitz and Birkenau camps, together, can burn 4,756 corpses in a 24-hour period. This document indicates that the Birkenau crematoria could burn 1.6 million bodies per year.
> 
> These facts make it clear that the &#8220;Leuchter Report,&#8221; allegedly a watershed in understanding Auschwitz, is in fact nothing more than an attempt, concealed beneath an academic-looking smokescreen of graphs, analyses, and calculations, at misinforming readers who have no access to the scholarly literature&#8212;or who are looking for precisely the sort of conclusions that Leuchter offers.*




Memorial & Museum Auschwitz-Birkenau


----------



## Xenophon

Sunni Man said:


> It's funny how all you can do is call names, but can't refute any of the facts in the site.


Legendary Imbecile.


----------



## Xenophon

Rudolf Hoess, Commandant of Auschwitz:
Testimony at Nuremburg, 1946 



> *1, RUDOLF FRANZ FERDINAND HOESS, being first duly sworn, depose and say as follows:
> 
> 1. I am forty*six years old, and have been a member of the NSDAPI since 1922; a member of the SS since 1934; a member of the Waffen*SS since 1939. I was a member from 1 December 1934 of the SS Guard Unit, the so*called Deathshead Formation (Totenkopf Verband).
> 
> 2. I have been constantly associated with the administration of concentration camps since 1934, serving at Dachau until 1938; then as Adjutant in Sachsenhausen from 1938 to 1 May, 1940, when I was appointed Commandant of Auschwitz. l commanded Auschwitz until 1 December,1943, and estimate that at least 2,500,000 victims were executed and exterminated there by gassing and burning, and at least another half million succumbed to starvation and disease, making a total dead of about 3,000,000. This figure represents about 70% or 80% of all persons sent to Auschwitz as prisoners, the remainder having been selected and used for slave labor in the concentration camp industries. Included among the executed and burnt were approximately 20,000 Russian prisoners of war (previously screened out of Prisoner of War cages by the Gestapo) who were delivered at Auschwitz in Wehrmacht transports operated by regular Wehrmacht officers and men. The remainder of the total number of victims included about 100,000 German Jews, and great numbers of citizens (mostly Jewish) from Holland, France, Belgium, Poland, Hungary, Czechoslovakia, Greece, or other countries. We executed about 400,000 Hungarian Jews alone at Auschwitz in the summer of 1944.
> 
> 4. Mass executions by gassing commenced during the summer 1941 and continued until fall 1944.1 personally supervised executions at Auschwitz until the first of December 1943 and know by reason of my continued duties in the Inspectorate of Concentration Camps WVHA2 that these mass executions continued as stated above. All mass executions by gassing took place under the direct order, supervision and responsibility of RSHA.31 received all orders for carrying out these mass executions directly from RSHA.
> 
> 6. The "final solution" of the Jewish question meant the complete extermination of all Jews in Europe. l was ordered to establish extermination facilities at Auschwitz in June 1941. At that time there were already in the general govemment three other extermination camps; BELZEK, TREBLINKA and WOLZEK. These camps were under the Einsatzkommando of the Security Police and SD. I visited Treblinka to find out how they carried out their exterminations. The Camp Commandant at Treblinka told me that he had liquidated 80,000 in the course of one*half year. He was principally concerned with liquidating all the Jews from the Warsaw Ghetto. He used monoxide gas and I did not think that his methods were very efficient. So when I set up the extermination building at Auschwitz, l used Cyclon B, which was a crystallized Prussic Acid which we dropped into the death chamber from a small opening. It took from 3 to 15 minutes to kill the people in the death chamber depending upon climatic conditions. We knew when the people were dead because their screaming stopped. We usually waited about one*half hour before we opened the doors and removed the bodies. After the bodies were removed our special commandos took off the rings and extracted the gold from the teeth of the corpses.
> 
> 7. Another improvement we made over Treblinka was that we built our gas chambers to accommodate 2,000 people at one time, whereas at Treblinka their 10 gas chambers only accommodated 200 people each. The way we selected our victims was as follows: we had two SS doctors on duty at Auschwitz to examine the incoming transports of prisoners. The prisoners would be marched by one of the doctors who would make spot decisions as they walked by. Those who were fit for work were sent into the Camp. Others were sent immediately to the extermination plants. Children of tender years were invariably exterminated since by reason of their youth they were unable to work. Still another improvement we made over Treblinka was that at Treblinka the victims almost always knew that they were to be exterminated and at Auschwitz we endeavored to fool the victims into thinking that they were to go through a delousing process. Of course, frequently they realized our true intentions and we sometimes had riots and difficulties due to that fact. Very frequently women would hide their children under the clothes but of course when we found them we would send the children in to be exterminated. We were required to carry out these exterminations in secrecy but of course the foul and nauseating stench from the continuous burning of bodies permeated the entire area and all of the people living in the surrounding communities knew that exterminations were going on at Auschwitz .
> 
> 8. We received from time to time special prisoners from the local Gestapo office. The SS doctors killed such prisoners by injections of benzine. Doctors had orders to write ordinary death certificates and could put down any reason at all for the cause of death.
> 
> 9. From time to time we conducted medical experiments on women inmates, including sterilization and experiments relating to cancer. Most of the people who died under these experiments had been already condemned to death by the Gestapo.
> 
> 10. Rudolf Mildner was the chief of the Gestapo at Kattowicz and as such was head of the political department at Auschwitz which conducted third degree methods of interrogation from approximately March 1941 until September 1943. As such, he frequently sent prisoners to Auschwitz for incarceration or execution. He visited Auschwitz on several occasions. The Gestapo Court, the SS Standgericht, which tried persons accused of various crimes, such as escaping Prisoners of War, etc., frequently met within Auschwitz, and Mildner often attended the trial of such persons, who usually were executed in Auschwitz following their sentence. l showed Mildner throughout the extermination plant at Auschwitz and he was directly interested in it since he had to send the Jews from his territory for execution at Auschwitz.
> 
> I understand English as it is written above. The above statements are true; this declaration is made by me voluntarily and without compulsion; after reading over the statement, I have signed and executed the same at Nurnberg, Germany on the fifth day of April 1946.*




Source


----------



## Xenophon

*&#8220;A thousand years will pass and the guilt of Germany will not be erased.&#8221;...Hans Frank, Nazi Governor-General for Poland, exectuted for crimes against humanity*


----------



## Sunni Man

I am sure after being in an Allied prison for over a year and continuously tortured.

The Commandant would sign any papers his soon to be executioners would stick in his face.

So called "confessions" like these really have no value as being truthful.


----------



## Xenophon

Sunni Man said:


> I am sure after being in an Allied prison for over a year and continuously tortured.
> 
> The Commandant would sign any papers his soon to be executioners would stick in his face.
> 
> So called "confessions" like these really have no value as being truthful.


Actually, it's proof that as usual, you are pwned.

The nazis did it, only an asshole would deny it.

So if you keep denying it, you prove you are an asshole.

Your choice.


----------



## Sunni Man

Xenophon said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> 
> I am sure after being in an Allied prison for over a year and continuously tortured.
> 
> The Commandant would sign any papers his soon to be executioners would stick in his face.
> 
> So called "confessions" like these really have no value as being truthful.
> 
> 
> 
> Actually, it's proof that as usual, you are pwned.
> 
> The nazis did it, only an asshole would deny it.
> 
> So if you keep denying it, you prove you are an asshole.
> 
> Your choice.
Click to expand...

Children are taught to believe in the Holohoax, the Easter Bunny, Santa Claus, Tooth Fairy, etc.

By the time they grow up to be adults. These fairy tales are left behind.

All except the Holohoax.

For some reason this powerful myth stays with people as they grow up.


----------



## Xenophon

An Asshole said:


> Children are taught to believe in the Holohoax, the Easter Bunny, Santa Claus, Tooth Fairy, etc.
> 
> By the time they grow up to be adults. These fairy tales are left behind.
> 
> All except the Holohoax.
> 
> For some reason this powerful myth stays with people as they grow up.



OK, you made your choice.


----------



## DiveCon

Sunni Man said:


> Xenophon said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> 
> I am sure after being in an Allied prison for over a year and continuously tortured.
> 
> The Commandant would sign any papers his soon to be executioners would stick in his face.
> 
> So called "confessions" like these really have no value as being truthful.
> 
> 
> 
> Actually, it's proof that as usual, you are pwned.
> 
> The nazis did it, only an asshole would deny it.
> 
> So if you keep denying it, you prove you are an asshole.
> 
> Your choice.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Children are taught to believe in the Holohoax, the Easter Bunny, Santa Claus, Tooth Fairy, etc.
> 
> By the time they grow up to be adults. These fairy tales are left behind.
> 
> All except the Holohoax.
> 
> For some reason this powerful myth stays with people as they grow up.
Click to expand...

because its not a myth, you moron


----------



## roomy

Have you ever seen 'Night and Fog'? It is a French made documentary put together in the 1950's using footage from Auschwitz'Watch it and then tell me it never happened.


----------



## jillian

DiveCon said:


> because its not a myth, you moron



you do understand that he KNOWS the Germans admitted it. He knows they documented it methodically. He knows the victims testified. He knows there were war crimes hearings and convictions.

He doesn't care...he only cares that people keep responding to him.

That's what trolls do. The fact that what he says may fire up a few people and spread hatred against jews so Hitler's work can be finished, is just icing on the cake to him.


----------



## random3434

jillian said:


> DiveCon said:
> 
> 
> 
> because its not a myth, you moron
> 
> 
> 
> 
> you do understand that he KNOWS the Germans admitted it. He knows they documented it methodically. He knows the victims testified. He knows there were war crimes hearings and convictions.
> 
> He doesn't care...he only cares that people keep responding to him.
> 
> That's what trolls do. The fact that what he says may fire up a few people and spread hatred against jews so Hitler's work can be finished, is just icing on the cake to him.
Click to expand...


Truer words were never spoken jill.


----------



## Tech_Esq

Sunni Man said:


> Xenophon said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> 
> I am sure after being in an Allied prison for over a year and continuously tortured.
> 
> The Commandant would sign any papers his soon to be executioners would stick in his face.
> 
> So called "confessions" like these really have no value as being truthful.
> 
> 
> 
> Actually, it's proof that as usual, you are pwned.
> 
> The nazis did it, only an asshole would deny it.
> 
> So if you keep denying it, you prove you are an asshole.
> 
> Your choice.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Children are taught to believe in the Holohoax, the Easter Bunny, Santa Claus, Tooth Fairy, etc.
> 
> By the time they grow up to be adults. These fairy tales are left behind.
> 
> All except the Holohoax.
> 
> For some reason this powerful myth stays with people as they grow up.
Click to expand...


Cool, then you won't mind if we kill 6 million Muslims and pretend it never happened. 

Then maybe we'll wait 60 years and kill 6 million more. Ok for you Sunni? Don't worry though, we'll be very staunch in our denials that the Muslims were killed, so it'll sound like it never happened.


----------



## Sky Dancer

Why did the holocaust occur?  Gee, according to Sunni Man, it never happened.


----------



## Sunni Man

Tech_Esq said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Xenophon said:
> 
> 
> 
> Actually, it's proof that as usual, you are pwned.
> 
> The nazis did it, only an asshole would deny it.
> 
> So if you keep denying it, you prove you are an asshole.
> 
> Your choice.
> 
> 
> 
> Children are taught to believe in the Holohoax, the Easter Bunny, Santa Claus, Tooth Fairy, etc.
> 
> By the time they grow up to be adults. These fairy tales are left behind.
> 
> All except the Holohoax.
> 
> For some reason this powerful myth stays with people as they grow up.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Cool, then you won't mind if we kill 6 million Muslims and pretend it never happened.
> 
> Then maybe we'll wait 60 years and kill 6 million more. Ok for you Sunni? Don't worry though, we'll be very staunch in our denials that the Muslims were killed, so it'll sound like it never happened.
Click to expand...

Isn't that what is going on right now in Iraq, Afghanistain, and Palestine?


----------



## Tech_Esq

Sunni Man said:


> Tech_Esq said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> 
> Children are taught to believe in the Holohoax, the Easter Bunny, Santa Claus, Tooth Fairy, etc.
> 
> By the time they grow up to be adults. These fairy tales are left behind.
> 
> All except the Holohoax.
> 
> For some reason this powerful myth stays with people as they grow up.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cool, then you won't mind if we kill 6 million Muslims and pretend it never happened.
> 
> Then maybe we'll wait 60 years and kill 6 million more. Ok for you Sunni? Don't worry though, we'll be very staunch in our denials that the Muslims were killed, so it'll sound like it never happened.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Isn't that what is going on right now in Iraq, Afghanistain, and Palestine?
Click to expand...


LOL....yeah, if we intend to take 1,000 years to kill the 6 million.


----------



## DiveCon

Sunni Man said:


> Tech_Esq said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> 
> Children are taught to believe in the Holohoax, the Easter Bunny, Santa Claus, Tooth Fairy, etc.
> 
> By the time they grow up to be adults. These fairy tales are left behind.
> 
> All except the Holohoax.
> 
> For some reason this powerful myth stays with people as they grow up.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cool, then you won't mind if we kill 6 million Muslims and pretend it never happened.
> 
> Then maybe we'll wait 60 years and kill 6 million more. Ok for you Sunni? Don't worry though, we'll be very staunch in our denials that the Muslims were killed, so it'll sound like it never happened.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Isn't that what is going on right now in Iraq, Afghanistain, and Palestine?
Click to expand...

wait, i thought you supported the invasion of Afghanistan?


----------



## elvis

DiveCon said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tech_Esq said:
> 
> 
> 
> Cool, then you won't mind if we kill 6 million Muslims and pretend it never happened.
> 
> Then maybe we'll wait 60 years and kill 6 million more. Ok for you Sunni? Don't worry though, we'll be very staunch in our denials that the Muslims were killed, so it'll sound like it never happened.
> 
> 
> 
> Isn't that what is going on right now in Iraq, Afghanistain, and Palestine?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> wait, i thought you supported the invasion of Afghanistan?
Click to expand...


He supported the Russian one.


----------



## Sunni Man

DiveCon said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tech_Esq said:
> 
> 
> 
> Cool, then you won't mind if we kill 6 million Muslims and pretend it never happened.
> 
> Then maybe we'll wait 60 years and kill 6 million more. Ok for you Sunni? Don't worry though, we'll be very staunch in our denials that the Muslims were killed, so it'll sound like it never happened.
> 
> 
> 
> Isn't that what is going on right now in Iraq, Afghanistain, and Palestine?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> wait, i thought you supported the invasion of Afghanistan?
Click to expand...

The invasion of Afghanistain was even dumber than the invasion of Iraq


----------



## ABikerSailor

Tell ya what.........

All muslims should be required to wear a star and crescent, 1 on the front left breast pocket, with a large one on the back, between the shoulders.

Colors will be in bright, day glo shades.

Muslims that live in US cities will only be allowed to live in designated areas, to be patrolled by the military on a regular basis.  The muslims will work on the road crews to repair the infrastructure of the US.  

Any muslim who is incapable of meeting these requirements will be sent off to re-instruction camps.

If rules are broken while at the camps, the punishment will be swift and severe, resulting in said offender volunteering to be a test subject for medical research, or, shot by firing squad.

Bodies of concentration camp offenders will not be returned to their families.

Public observance of the muslim faith will result in immediate deportation to re-education camps.


How's that grab ya Sunnidiot?  You guys can experience the same things you claim happened during WWII.

The only lie bigger than what you perceive the Holocaust to be, is that fucked up theology that you follow, led by that demon motherfucker allah (may his name forever be a curse......ptooie).

Islam itself is a myth and a lie.


----------



## DiveCon

Sunni Man said:


> DiveCon said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> 
> Isn't that what is going on right now in Iraq, Afghanistain, and Palestine?
> 
> 
> 
> wait, i thought you supported the invasion of Afghanistan?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The invasion of Afghanistain was even dumber than the invasion of Iraq
Click to expand...

ah, my mistake

so we shouldnt have responded to being attacked


----------



## ABikerSailor

Of course we should not have invaded Afghanistan (according to the Sunnidiot).

We should have left them alone to allow the cancer of their bullshit beliefs to fester there, eventually, popping like a pus filled boil over the rest of the world, resulting in the senseless death of millions, and the fear of everyone, with starvation and plague running rampant, and war everywhere.

I mean.......after all......that's what is going to happen when the 13th Imam shows up, according to islam.

Shit.....I'm A Mad Whack Job said that he was trying to hasten his arrival.


----------



## Sunni Man

DiveCon said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> DiveCon said:
> 
> 
> 
> wait, i thought you supported the invasion of Afghanistan?
> 
> 
> 
> The invasion of Afghanistain was even dumber than the invasion of Iraq
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> ah, my mistake
> 
> so we shouldnt have responded to being attacked
Click to expand...

Of course we should have responded to being attacked.

But invading a whole country to capture ONE person is idiotic.

All we needed to do was put troops on the ground in the area where Osama was known to be and find him. 

Instead we wasted time invading and securing the entire country. 

Also, the Taliban was NEVER a threat to the United States.

They had No control over Al Qaeda and basically said so from the start.


----------



## Tech_Esq

Sunni Man said:


> DiveCon said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> 
> Isn't that what is going on right now in Iraq, Afghanistain, and Palestine?
> 
> 
> 
> wait, i thought you supported the invasion of Afghanistan?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The invasion of Afghanistain was even dumber than the invasion of Iraq
Click to expand...


----------



## Tech_Esq

Sunni Man said:


> DiveCon said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> 
> The invasion of Afghanistain was even dumber than the invasion of Iraq
> 
> 
> 
> ah, my mistake
> 
> so we shouldnt have responded to being attacked
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Of course we should have responded to being attacked.
> 
> But invading a whole country to capture ONE person is idiotic.
> 
> All we needed to do was put troops on the ground in the area where Osama was known to be and find him.
> 
> Instead we wasted time invading and securing the entire country.
> 
> Also, the Taliban was NEVER a threat to the United States.
> 
> They had No control over Al Qaeda and basically said so from the start.
Click to expand...


----------



## ABikerSailor

Like I said.....let's treat the muslims like the Jews were treated in WWII.

Maybe then some of these dumb motherfuckers will understand (or at least die learning).


----------



## DiveCon

ABikerSailor said:


> Like I said.....let's treat the muslims like the Jews were treated in WWII.
> 
> Maybe then some of these dumb motherfuckers will understand (or at least die learning).


how about we limit it to only muslims that are also holocaust deniers


----------



## Sunni Man

The Jewish Boycott of 1933 was the last straw for most German people.

It proved that the Jewish people were traitors and back stabbers to their nation.


----------



## DiveCon

Sunni Man said:


> The Jewish Boycott of 1933 was the last straw for most German people.
> 
> It proved that the Jewish people were traitors and back stabbers to their nation.


April 1, 1933 - Nazi Boycott of Jewish Shops

interesting
Hitler organizes a boycott of Jewish shops and somehow thats the Jews fault?


----------



## ABikerSailor

Actually Dive, we need to put all muslims on the camper list.  If islam is allowed to fester in it's current state of stupidity, we'll end up with a lot more Sunnidiots.

And yeah......it was the Jews' fault.  Just like it is the fault of the middle and lower class people "buying homes that they can't afford", and meanwhile ARM's and the greedy pricks on Wall St., as well as those in the banking and mortgage business are sitting at the top, begging for money, telling everyone that the economy is fucked up and they can fix it, but you gotta give them more money.

See how that self-replicating stupidity gets out of hand?


----------



## DiveCon

ABikerSailor said:


> Actually Dive, we need to put all muslims on the camper list.  If islam is allowed to fester in it's current state of stupidity, we'll end up with a lot more Sunnidiots.
> 
> And yeah......it was the Jews' fault.  Just like it is the fault of the middle and lower class people "buying homes that they can't afford", and meanwhile ARM's and the greedy pricks on Wall St., as well as those in the banking and mortgage business are sitting at the top, begging for money, telling everyone that the economy is fucked up and they can fix it, but you gotta give them more money.
> 
> See how that self-replicating stupidity gets out of hand?


i've been against ALL the bailouts
but that is getting off topic


----------



## ABikerSailor

What I'm saying, is that the myopic views of the power elite in the US, they myopic views of the Christian Right, the islamic assholes, as well as the bankers are of the same stripe as the myopic views of the German Reich.

If it ain't like us, kill it......which means that everything is wiped out (eventually).

God said in Revelations that 1/3 of the world was going to be wiped out.  There are 3 major religions, Christianity, Judaism and islam.  

Based on their track record thus far over the past 30 years, I'd be willing to bet that when HaShem comes back, the third that's gonna be winked out of existence is those of the islamic persuasion.

How does this tie in to the Holocaust?  You do realize that Hitler was close allies with those in the ME, right?  And......the people of the ME hated the Jews, so, maybe Hitler was influenced by those of the islamic faith, which is why he then turned out against them, and started the Holocaust.


----------



## roomy

Sunni Man said:


> DiveCon said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> 
> The invasion of Afghanistain was even dumber than the invasion of Iraq
> 
> 
> 
> ah, my mistake
> 
> so we shouldnt have responded to being attacked
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Of course we should have responded to being attacked.
> 
> But invading a whole country to capture ONE person is idiotic.
> 
> All we needed to do was put troops on the ground in the area where Osama was known to be and find him.
> 
> Instead we wasted time invading and securing the entire country.
> 
> Also, the Taliban was NEVER a threat to the United States.
> 
> They had No control over Al Qaeda and basically said so from the start.
Click to expand...






I am never going to respond to you ever again.As far as I am concerned your trolling days are over.


----------



## Sunni Man

roomy said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> DiveCon said:
> 
> 
> 
> ah, my mistake
> 
> so we shouldnt have responded to being attacked
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Of course we should have responded to being attacked.
> 
> But invading a whole country to capture ONE person is idiotic.
> 
> All we needed to do was put troops on the ground in the area where Osama was known to be and find him.
> 
> Instead we wasted time invading and securing the entire country.
> 
> Also, the Taliban was NEVER a threat to the United States.
> 
> They had No control over Al Qaeda and basically said so from the start.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I am never going to respond to you ever again.As far as I am concerned your trolling days are over.
Click to expand...

All I do is post the truth.

If you can't be a man an hear the facts.

It's not my fault.


----------



## DiveCon

Sunni Man said:


> roomy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> 
> Of course we should have responded to being attacked.
> 
> But invading a whole country to capture ONE person is idiotic.
> 
> All we needed to do was put troops on the ground in the area where Osama was known to be and find him.
> 
> Instead we wasted time invading and securing the entire country.
> 
> Also, the Taliban was NEVER a threat to the United States.
> 
> They had No control over Al Qaeda and basically said so from the start.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I am never going to respond to you ever again.As far as I am concerned your trolling days are over.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> All I do is post the truth.
> 
> If you can't be a man an hear the facts.
> 
> It's not my fault.
Click to expand...

you are as big a liar as we have on this forum


----------



## ABikerSailor

Back to topic..........

So what do you guys think about my theory of the Holocaust?

It was because Hitler (who was friends with the Arabs and muslims because he was looking to acquire a whole bunch of artifacts), came back from his discussions in the Middle East (or was sent messages), and the muslims wanted Hitler to off the Jews in exchange for artifacts?


----------



## manu1959

ABikerSailor said:


> Back to topic..........
> 
> So what do you guys think about my theory of the Holocaust?
> 
> It was because Hitler (who was friends with the Arabs and muslims because he was looking to acquire a whole bunch of artifacts), came back from his discussions in the Middle East (or was sent messages), and the muslims wanted Hitler to off the Jews in exchange for artifacts?



interesting theory.....since hilter was basically a jew he was as crooked and money grubbing as the rest of them.......how does hilter helping jews relocate to the middle east with the help of the surrounding arabs states factor into this.....


----------



## Gunny

DavidS said:


> I don't believe there is any question that is so simple yet that requires such a complex answer.
> 
> On another message board more relating to photography, a photographer had unveiled a new, quite excellent body of work that exhibited portraits of holocaust survivors. One critic had this to say about the subject matter:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> To be perfectly frank I see no point in adding yet another body of work -even a work as masterful as this clearly is -to the subject of the Holocaust that is devoid of any serious analysis of the question of _why._ A million volumes have already been written and they all with few exceptions primarily function to shroud the episode in mystery, rendering the subject broadly incomprehensible and in so doing, serving to intellectually disarm any meaningful resistance to its future resuscitation.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The discussion of politics is not allowed on that forum, so I thought I would turn the discussion over to here, where there are quite a few intelligent people on this forum.
> 
> So, why do YOU think the holocaust happened? Give whatever realist or phillisophical belief you might have on why it occurred.
> 
> Also, I know there are deniers out there who believe the holocaust never happened and we've got your story down - thank you. I also know there are one or two neo-nazis/skinheads/racists on this forum, again thank you, we know you hate Jews. This discussion is not for you and I would thank you if you kept out of it.
Click to expand...


The Holocaust, referring to Hitler's genocidal practices toward Jews and other minorities happened as a direct result of fascism.  Fascism feeds on Nationalism, and requires an enemy.  

Jews, as a religious/ethnic minority did not suffer as much financially following WWI as most other Europeans.  They were and have been rather clannish in their spending habits, and quite frugal.  

Hitler stirred the Nationalism and hatred of the have nots against the haves.  He needed an enemy and Jews presented one that could not only be targetted, but disnfranchised of their wealth.  

Once relieved of their property/posessions, what further use to the Third Reich?  Jews that were useful were put to work.  Those that were not deemed useful were exterminated.  

As far as why they couldn't escape Germany, you need to ask which other nation freely accepted expatriate German Jews as immigrants.  The fact that no one else would take Jews either IS a factor in the number that died at the hands of Hitler and his cronies.


----------



## Sunni Man

Gunny said:


> DavidS said:
> 
> 
> 
> I don't believe there is any question that is so simple yet that requires such a complex answer.
> 
> On another message board more relating to photography, a photographer had unveiled a new, quite excellent body of work that exhibited portraits of holocaust survivors. One critic had this to say about the subject matter:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> To be perfectly frank I see no point in adding yet another body of work -even a work as masterful as this clearly is -to the subject of the Holocaust that is devoid of any serious analysis of the question of _why._ A million volumes have already been written and they all with few exceptions primarily function to shroud the episode in mystery, rendering the subject broadly incomprehensible and in so doing, serving to intellectually disarm any meaningful resistance to its future resuscitation.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The discussion of politics is not allowed on that forum, so I thought I would turn the discussion over to here, where there are quite a few intelligent people on this forum.
> 
> So, why do YOU think the holocaust happened? Give whatever realist or phillisophical belief you might have on why it occurred.
> 
> Also, I know there are deniers out there who believe the holocaust never happened and we've got your story down - thank you. I also know there are one or two neo-nazis/skinheads/racists on this forum, again thank you, we know you hate Jews. This discussion is not for you and I would thank you if you kept out of it.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> As far as why they couldn't escape Germany, you need to ask which other nation freely accepted expatriate German Jews as immigrants.  The fact that no one else would take Jews either IS a factor in the number that died at the hands of Hitler and his cronies.
Click to expand...

The fact that No other nation would take in the Jews says alot about them.


----------



## dilloduck

Gunny said:


> .  They were and have been rather clannish in their spending habits, and quite frugal.
> 
> .



Wouldn't you agree that Jews are quite clannish when it comes to abotu everything?
Live as a clan, die a clan perhaps ?


----------



## ABikerSailor

manu1959 said:


> ABikerSailor said:
> 
> 
> 
> Back to topic..........
> 
> So what do you guys think about my theory of the Holocaust?
> 
> It was because Hitler (who was friends with the Arabs and muslims because he was looking to acquire a whole bunch of artifacts), came back from his discussions in the Middle East (or was sent messages), and the muslims wanted Hitler to off the Jews in exchange for artifacts?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> interesting theory.....since hilter was basically a jew he was as crooked and money grubbing as the rest of them.......how does hilter helping jews relocate to the middle east with the help of the surrounding arabs states factor into this.....
Click to expand...


No, not relocate, EXTERMINATE.


----------



## manu1959

ABikerSailor said:


> manu1959 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ABikerSailor said:
> 
> 
> 
> Back to topic..........
> 
> So what do you guys think about my theory of the Holocaust?
> 
> It was because Hitler (who was friends with the Arabs and muslims because he was looking to acquire a whole bunch of artifacts), came back from his discussions in the Middle East (or was sent messages), and the muslims wanted Hitler to off the Jews in exchange for artifacts?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> interesting theory.....since hilter was basically a jew he was as crooked and money grubbing as the rest of them.......how does hilter helping jews relocate to the middle east with the help of the surrounding arabs states factor into this.....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No, not relocate, EXTERMINATE.
Click to expand...


nah in the early days he helped ship tens of thousands to the middle east.....then according to suuni he opened spas for them......


----------



## ABikerSailor

manu1959 said:


> ABikerSailor said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> manu1959 said:
> 
> 
> 
> interesting theory.....since hilter was basically a jew he was as crooked and money grubbing as the rest of them.......how does hilter helping jews relocate to the middle east with the help of the surrounding arabs states factor into this.....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No, not relocate, EXTERMINATE.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> nah in the early days he helped ship tens of thousands to the middle east.....then according to suuni he opened spas for them......
Click to expand...


Yeah.....spas that they later turned into stew with Jewish people.......


----------



## Sunni Man

For those people with an open mind, who want to finally know the truth about the so called holocaust.

Auschwitz and the holocaust 

This is the best site on the internet dealing with the holocaust.


----------



## editec

You sure are obsessed about the holocaust, Sunni.

Wishful thinking?


----------



## elvis

editec said:


> You sure are obsessed about the holocaust, Sunni.
> 
> Wishful thinking?



He wishes he were Heinrich Himmler.


----------



## Sunni Man

editec said:


> You sure are obsessed about the holocaust, Sunni.
> 
> Wishful thinking?


I love America.

But a foreign government and cabal has taken control of our society.

The bedrock of their ideology and control is indoctrinating people from a young age with the holocaust myth.

Once this myth is exposed as nothing but a huge fraud and lie.

People will hopefully wake up and start become aware of the how this group has manipulated and enslaved America.

The next step would be to rid our country of this disease and take back our nation.


----------



## ABikerSailor

Sunni Man said:


> editec said:
> 
> 
> 
> You sure are obsessed about the holocaust, Sunni.
> 
> Wishful thinking?
> 
> 
> 
> I love America.
> 
> But a foreign government and cabal has taken control of our society.
> 
> The bedrock of their ideology and control is indoctrinating people from a young age with the holocaust myth.
> 
> Once this myth is exposed as nothing but a huge fraud and lie.
> 
> People will hopefully wake up and start become aware of the how this group has manipulated and enslaved America.
> 
> The next step would be to rid our country of this disease and take back our nation.
Click to expand...


Sunni loves America?  Why did he not serve out a full term in the military then?  Why is it he continually talks bad about this country?  Why is he an Islamic prick?

The bedrock of the Islamic ideology is control and indoctrination without anything to back it up other than the Koran.

Islam is being exposed as nothing but a huge fraud and lie, they wanted to steal the birthright of Issac.

Hopefully people who are muslim will wake up and become aware of how the Taliban and other radicals have manipulated and enslaved their country, and are coming to do the same here.

The next step to taking care of the problem in this country, is concentration camps for all Islamics.


----------



## editec

If you believe the blather you post here, Sunni, you have my sincerest sympthy.

You have an ideological disease, my friend.

It's curable though.


----------



## elvis

editec said:


> If you believe the blather you post here, Sunni, you have my sincerest sympthy.
> 
> You have an ideological disease, my friend.
> 
> It's curable though.



Is it?


----------



## Sunni Man

ABikerSailor said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> editec said:
> 
> 
> 
> You sure are obsessed about the holocaust, Sunni.
> 
> Wishful thinking?
> 
> 
> 
> I love America.
> 
> But a foreign government and cabal has taken control of our society.
> 
> The bedrock of their ideology and control is indoctrinating people from a young age with the holocaust myth.
> 
> Once this myth is exposed as nothing but a huge fraud and lie.
> 
> People will hopefully wake up and start become aware of the how this group has manipulated and enslaved America.
> 
> The next step would be to rid our country of this disease and take back our nation.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Sunni loves America?  Why did he not serve out a full term in the military then?
Click to expand...


For the hundredth time numb nuts.

I was drafted into the Army. The draft committment was for 2 years.

I had No desire to reenlist after that time. I did not want a military career.

99% of the people who were drafted didn't stay in to make it a career.

I recieved an Honorable Discharge. That's what counts


----------



## editec

elvis3577 said:


> editec said:
> 
> 
> 
> If you believe the blather you post here, Sunni, you have my sincerest sympthy.
> 
> You have an ideological disease, my friend.
> 
> It's curable though.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Is it?
Click to expand...

 

Yes


----------



## Sky Dancer

editec said:


> elvis3577 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> editec said:
> 
> 
> 
> If you believe the blather you post here, Sunni, you have my sincerest sympthy.
> 
> You have an ideological disease, my friend.
> 
> It's curable though.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Is it?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Yes
Click to expand...


But only if you admit its a problem and are motivated to change it.


----------



## ABikerSailor

So, you went from being an honorable person (maybe when you were in the military), to becoming an islamic prick who talks shit about Jews and others.

Ya know......a concentration camp would be too good for you.  Me?  I'd send you to the ovens to make bread.


----------



## DiveCon

Sunni Man said:


> editec said:
> 
> 
> 
> You sure are obsessed about the holocaust, Sunni.
> 
> Wishful thinking?
> 
> 
> 
> I love America.
> 
> But a foreign government and cabal has taken control of our society.
> 
> The bedrock of their ideology and control is indoctrinating people from a young age with the holocaust myth.
> 
> Once this myth is exposed as nothing but a huge fraud and lie.
> 
> People will hopefully wake up and start become aware of the how this group has manipulated and enslaved America.
> 
> The next step would be to rid our country of this disease and take back our nation.
Click to expand...

what a crock of shit

yeah, we've heard it all before
the Jews have undue influence


----------



## Yukon

Sunni,

Pray tell my child but are you by chance a Muslim?


----------



## Sunni Man

Yukon said:


> Sunni,
> 
> Pray tell my child but are you by chance a Muslim?


Yes, my son, I am


----------



## ABikerSailor

Yukon said:


> Sunni,
> 
> Pray tell my child but are you by chance a Muslim?



Yes Yakking One....he's a failed Christian who converted to that fucked up demonic religion called islam.  Your deity allah (may his name forever be a curse.....ptooie) has one of the most fucked up theologies I've ever come across......and I've been lots of different countries.


----------



## Yukon

Muslim people disgust me becasue they worship a sick pedophile. You by default also disgust me.


----------



## ABikerSailor

Yukon said:


> Muslim people disgust me becasue they worship a sick pedophile. You by default also disgust me.



Isn't pedophilia what got you kicked out of the priesthood?


----------



## random3434

Yukon said:


> Muslim people disgust me becasue they worship a sick pedophile. You by default also disgust me.



So you and sunni boy aren't "Best Buds" anymore?


----------



## Sky Dancer

What happened?  I thought in was a match made in seven virgin land?


----------



## BrianH

Sky Dancer said:


> This is an interesting topic.  The holocaust happened because the causes and conditions for it to happen were present.
> 
> One of the most interesting things to me is how the German people were socialized in their families to accept authority and to not investigate what their government was doing.



Sounds familiar doesn't it?


----------



## Yukon

In pre-Hitler Germany the Jewish people caused the high unemployment, stole businesses from hard working Germans, and denied food to the hungry Germans who lost their jobs. What did you expect herr Hitler would do? Give them more perhaps. The fact is my children that the Jewish people created a lot of problems they encountered.

Whether or not they were exterminated is a matter of debate. Check out the post WWII census of Europe and try to find any data to support the claim that there were even 6 million Jews in all of Europe in 1939.

Many Jewish people died in work camps because they were not used to hard-work and of course they blamed the Germans. Hollywood, which is controlled by Zionists, has convinced most people that 6 million died. I have my doubts as any thinking person should.


----------



## del

Yukon said:


> In pre-Hitler Germany the Jewish people caused the high unemployment, stole businesses from hard working Germans, and denied food to the hungry Germans who lost their jobs. What did you expect herr Hitler would do? Give them more perhaps. The fact is my children that the Jewish people created a lot of problems they encountered.
> 
> Whether or not they were exterminated is a matter of debate. Check out the post WWII census of Europe and try to find any data to support the claim that there were even 6 million Jews in all of Europe in 1939.
> 
> Many Jewish people died in work camps because they were not used to hard-work and of course they blamed the Germans. Hollywood, which is controlled by Zionists, has convinced most people that 6 million died. I have my doubts as any thinking person should.



the idea that a low end, garden variety, ham fisted troll such as yourself has any claim to be a thinking person is laughable on its face.


----------



## Yukon

Del,

I'm trying to debate and I haven't resorted to name - calling. Please, let us try to act as mature adults.


----------



## random3434

Yukon said:


> Del,
> 
> I'm trying to debate and I haven't resorted to name - calling. Please, let us try to act as *mature adults*.


----------



## ABikerSailor

Yukon said:


> Del,
> 
> I'm trying to debate and I haven't resorted to name - calling. Please, let us try to act as mature adults.



Whaa fucking Whaa douchebag.  What?  You can call other people things, as well as tell others what they should do, and when it's done to YOU, ya go all wimp on us.

Yacking One.......mebbe you should find another place, your skin isn't thick enough to play around here.

Ya ain't smart enough either.


----------



## BrianH

Yukon said:


> In pre-Hitler Germany the Jewish people caused the high unemployment, stole businesses from hard working Germans, and denied food to the hungry Germans who lost their jobs. What did you expect herr Hitler would do? Give them more perhaps. The fact is my children that the Jewish people created a lot of problems they encountered.
> 
> Whether or not they were exterminated is a matter of debate. Check out the post WWII census of Europe and try to find any data to support the claim that there were even 6 million Jews in all of Europe in 1939.
> 
> Many Jewish people died in work camps because they were not used to hard-work and of course they blamed the Germans. Hollywood, which is controlled by Zionists, has convinced most people that 6 million died. I have my doubts as any thinking person should.




???????????????  You've obviously never met a survivor.  Start by reading the Diary of Anne Frank.  I guess the pictures of bones in a furnace was photoshopped...

And you obviously don't have a rational cell in your brain.  Regardless of whether or not the Jewish people "caused problems" for the German people, you don't simply exterminate people who are either smarter and or more resourceful than you.  I saw props to the Jews for using what they have and making better lives for themselves.  Not that we're in Europe, but isn't that what American principles are about???  Pulling yourself up by your boot-straps and making alot out of what you have.  

The Holocaust has its origins in the basic anti-semitism that had plagued Europe for YEARS.  Hitler simply brainwashed the German people into hating Jews more than they already did.  Hitler blamed the jews for the German loss of World War I, claiming it was the Jews and their conspirators.  Germany experiences what we often experience here in the U.S.  When something goes wrong, we look for someone to blame.  Hitler used his hatred of the Jews to emphasize Germany's problems.  

IMO, Germany's problems stemmed from the destruction of World War I to Europe's economy as well as the STIFF/STRICT regulations of the Treaty of Versailles.  Germans were burning money for warmth.  THINGS WERE BAD, and people looked for someone to blame.  Not only did they blame the Democratic government that governed during World War I, but also blamed the Jews with a little guidance from Hiter's anti-semitist views.  Lets not also forget that aside from Hitler's anti-semitism and dreams to conquer the world, he could have gone down as one of the most successful leader in world history.  He took a baren nation from the gutter, to one of the most (and possibly the most) power nation on earth in a period of a few years.  Who could blame the German people for following him?  They went from burning money for heat, to enjoying the perks of being a world power.  There's more do it than that, but you get the drift.


----------



## ABikerSailor

Tell ya what Yakking One......since you spent 16 years in the priesthood, that means YOU ALSO are not "used to hard work".  

So......we'll let YOU go into a concentration camp and treat you just like the Germans treated the Jews.

Spend a month, then come back and tell us how 'nice' the Germans were to the Jews.

Working for the German war machine in WWII was a lot harder than molesting altar boys in the priesthood.


----------



## Sunni Man

*Diary of Anne Frank is a Fraud*

In April, the diary was turned over to techicians of the BKA [Bundeskriminalamt, Germany's "FBI"] for examination.

The manuscript, in the form of three hardbound notebooks and 324 loose pages bound in a fourth notebook, was examined with special equipment.

The results of tests performed at the BKA laboratories show that portions of the work, specially of the fourth volume, *were written with a ballpoint pen. Since ballpoint pens were not available before 1951, the BKA concluded, those sections must have been added subsequently.*

The Fraud of the Diary of Anne Frank


----------



## ABikerSailor

NEWS REPORT..........NEWS REPORT..........NEWS REPORT..............

Scientists in Saudi Arabia have discovered that the Q'aran is a total fabrication and a lie!  It was recently re-written to include world domination and terror......

Islam is a lie!


----------



## Sunni Man

ABikerSailor said:


> NEWS REPORT..........NEWS REPORT..........NEWS REPORT..............
> 
> Scientists in Saudi Arabia have discovered that the Q'aran is a total fabrication and a lie!  It was recently re-written to include world domination and terror......



Evidence or link Please


----------



## ABikerSailor

No need.  You sure as hell don't quote anything from a reputable news source.

Why should I?


----------



## KittenKoder

BrianH said:


> ???????????????  You've obviously never met a survivor.  Start by reading the Diary of Anne Frank.  I guess the pictures of bones in a furnace was *photoshopped*...



Don't you know, all the historic pictures were photo-shopped! Even though it didn't exist back then and most of us saw them long before they were put into digital format ...


----------



## Diuretic

Sunni Man said:


> *Diary of Anne Frank is a Fraud*
> 
> In April, the diary was turned over to techicians of the BKA [Bundeskriminalamt, Germany's "FBI"] for examination.
> 
> The manuscript, in the form of three hardbound notebooks and 324 loose pages bound in a fourth notebook, was examined with special equipment.
> 
> The results of tests performed at the BKA laboratories show that portions of the work, specially of the fourth volume, *were written with a ballpoint pen. Since ballpoint pens were not available before 1951, the BKA concluded, those sections must have been added subsequently.*
> 
> The Fraud of the Diary of Anne Frank



Problem for you.  Ballpoint pens were in use during WWII.


----------



## Diuretic

Another problem for you.



> The origin of the "ballpoint myth" is the four-page report that the Federal Criminal Police Office (the Bundeskriminalamt or BKA) in Wiesbaden, which was published in 1980. In this investigation into the types of paper and ink used in the diary of Anne Frank it is stated that "ballpoint corrections" had been made on some loose sheets. The BKA&#8217;s task was to report on all the texts found among the diaries of Anne Frank, and therefore also on the annotations that were made in Anne&#8217;s manuscripts after the war. However, the Dutch investigation by the Forensic Institute in the mid-1980&#8217;s shows that writing in ballpoint is only found on two loose pages of annotations, and that these annotations are of no significance for the actual content of the diary. They were clearly placed between the other pages later. The researchers of the Forensic Institute also concluded that the handwriting on these two annotation sheets differs from the writing in the diary "to a far-reaching degree." Photos of these loose annotation sheets are included in the NIOD&#8217;s publication (see The Diary of Anne Frank: The Revised Critical Edition, 2003, pages 168 and 170). In 1987, a Mr Ockelmann from Hamburg wrote that his mother had written the annotation sheets in question. Mrs Ockelmann was a member of the team that carried out the graphological investigation into the writings of Anne Frank around 1960.
> 
> In short: the &#8216;ballpoint myth&#8217; is easy to disprove. The careless wording of the BKA report from 1980 &#8211; a report that for the rest in no way challenges the authenticity of the diary &#8211; or at any rate its openness to several interpretations, has taken on a life of its own in extreme right-wing circles. The "ballpoint myth" is based on the simple fact that, around 1960, two annotation sheets with ballpoint writing were inserted between the original pages. These texts were written by a graphological researcher, and are not included in any edition of the diary (apart from the Critical Edition, where photos of the annotation sheets are reproduced). In July 2006, the BKA found it necessary to state in a press release that the 1980 investigation cannot be used to call the authenticity of the diary into doubt.



Entries in ballpoint pen - the official Anne Frank House website

Just the usual merry-go-round bullshit by the haters.


----------



## KittenKoder

I think Sunni (and those like him) is just getting greedy, it's not enough they now have equal rights, they want more, so they make it look like the other "minority" groups didn't have it as bad, thus making it look like they should get more than the others. I wonder if he even admits that the Japanese/Chinese/etc. were all placed in US concentration camps as a result Pearl Harbor for a short time. Then when they were finally set free they had nothing but managed to work their way back into our business world.


----------



## Sunni Man

Anne Frank's father, Mr. Otto Hans Frank, doctored up the diary and forged many parts of the work.

With the whole Holohoax Industry behind him. 

Mr. Frank turned this fictional piece of work into an international money making machine.


----------



## Sunni Man

KittenKoder said:


> I think Sunni (and those like him) is just getting greedy, it's not enough they now have equal rights, they want more, so they make it look like the other "minority" groups didn't have it as bad, thus making it look like they should get more than the others. I wonder if he even admits that the Japanese/Chinese/etc. were all placed in US concentration camps as a result Pearl Harbor for a short time. Then when they were finally set free they had nothing but managed to work their way back into our business world.


How is 1.1 billion muslims a minority group?


----------



## Diuretic

Sunni Man said:


> Anne Frank's father, Mr. Otto Hans Frank, doctored up the diary and forged many parts of the work.
> 
> With the whole Holohoax Industry behind him.
> 
> Mr. Frank turned this fictional piece of work into an international money making machine.



Please, if you're at the point of recycling bullshit (and I congratulate you on recycling) can you at least find some fresher bullshit?


----------



## Sunni Man

Diuretic said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> 
> Anne Frank's father, Mr. Otto Hans Frank, doctored up the diary and forged many parts of the work.
> 
> With the whole Holohoax Industry behind him.
> 
> Mr. Frank turned this fictional piece of work into an international money making machine.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Please, if you're at the point of recycling bullshit (and I congratulate you on recycling) can you at least find some fresher bullshit?
Click to expand...

I know it's hard for you to accept the truth Diuretic.

Like most people, you have been programed to believe the Holohoax and all of the lie's associated with it.


----------



## Sky Dancer

Stunning.

I'm really thinking almost everything about you is complete bullshit, Sunni Man.


----------



## KittenKoder

Sky Dancer said:


> Stunning.
> 
> I'm really thinking almost everything about you is complete bullshit, Sunni Man.



Just now catching up? ... *ducks*


----------



## Sunni Man

Sky Dancer said:


> Stunning.
> 
> I'm really thinking almost everything about you is complete bullshit, Sunni Man.



Why do you say that?

Because I don't believe in the Anne Frank fraud?

Just google Anne Frank hoax or fraud, and tons of info comes up showing that the official story is not quite as solid as people have been led to believe.


----------



## Sky Dancer

KittenKoder said:


> Sky Dancer said:
> 
> 
> 
> Stunning.
> 
> I'm really thinking almost everything about you is complete bullshit, Sunni Man.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Just now catching up? ... *ducks*
Click to expand...


Yeah, I'm really sloooowww.  None of the pieces add up.  We've got a poster who says he's a therapist--implying he's college educated and compassionate.  And he's a Holocaust denier?


----------



## Sky Dancer

"How is the Holocaust denied?

The modern form of Holocaust denial is focused on a dismissal of three core aspects of the Holocaust:

&#8220;The suggestion of around 6 million Jewish victims is absurd &#8211; some Jews may have died during World War II, but not nearly 6 million&#8221;
&#8220;The suggested gas chambers in Auschwitz and elsewhere are an invention &#8211; scientific experiments show that gas was not used to kill people, but only for disinfections&#8221; 
&#8220;It was never Hitler&#8217;s intention to murder the Jews &#8211; they were to be deported to the east, but never killed&#8221;
In order to create doubt about the truth of the Holocaust, the deniers use some very dubious methods. Some examples:

The deniers pretend to be working for the &#8220;historical truth&#8221;. This sounds very noble, but only works as a cover. The deniers are merely working to undermine acknowledged scholarship.

The deniers put an equation mark between the existence of several historical interpretations of the Holocaust and the fact that it never happened. In other words: If one historian suggests that only 4 million Jews fell victim to the nazi persecution, and another historian suggests 7 million, then they disagree &#8211; an then the Holocaust is a false construction. But: that two historians disagree about the number of victims is NOT the same as suggesting that the Holocaust never took place. Those elements are NOT inter-connected. 

The deniers&#8217; interpretation of the sources is highly suspect. If a source says something specific or direct about extermination of the Jews, it is rejected as a euphemism &#8211; words like &#8216;extermination&#8217; are said to mean something much less terrible. If, on the other hand, a source does use a euphemism (for instance &#8216;special treatment&#8217; instead of &#8216;murder&#8217 &#8211; which the Nazis frequently did &#8211; this source is of course taken literally.

The deniers also use pure falsifications, lies, rewritings of quotations, quotations taken out of their original context, and several other dirty tricks." 
The Danish Center for Holocaust and Genocide Studies


----------



## Sky Dancer

Over half the states of Europe now criminalize Holocaust denial. They accept the premise that deniers are extremists who use denial, among other means, to rehabilitate Nazism. Their legal rationale in doing so is usually that denial negates the historical facts established at Nuremburg in 1945 rather than that it constitutes offensive or threatening speech. International agreements take the same line and this was reinforced and given a legal basis in April 2007 by the EU Common Framework Decision, which requires European states to criminalize denial. Legislation, however, has not stopped extremists from continuing to promote Holocaust denial and they are now joined and invigorated by Iran, which promotes it as state policy. Nevertheless, states now accept that Holocaust education is vital and several intergovernmental initiatives offer hope for the future. 
Institute for Global Jewish Affairs â Global Antisemitism, Anti-Israelism, Jewish Studies


----------



## Diuretic

Sunni Man said:


> Sky Dancer said:
> 
> 
> 
> Stunning.
> 
> I'm really thinking almost everything about you is complete bullshit, Sunni Man.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Why do you say that?
> 
> Because I don't believe in the Anne Frank fraud?
> 
> Just google Anne Frank hoax or fraud, and tons of info comes up showing that the official story is not quite as solid as people have been led to believe.
Click to expand...


You can release yourself from this thrall.  You'll find it liberating if you accept that the evidence is clear, that the Nazis perpetrated genocide - on various groups - and that in particular the "Final Solution to the Jewish Question" is an historical fact.  Once you accept that then you can move on.  

You can launch blistering attacks on Israeli foreign policy and its domestic policies such as new settlements which are apparently proscribed by law but which are going ahead anyway.  You'll be able to put forward your views without anyone thinking that you're an _agent provocateur_ who has adopted the persona of a Muslim convert (aren't you getting bored with it by now?) to stir shit.  But right now every time you post something like this it convinces people that you're just another one of those seriously fucked up denialist types and anything you write which may have some sort of content validity relative to current affairs is being seen through that prism.


----------



## Sky Dancer

There is _no point _in discussing how and why the Holocaust occurred with a Holocaust denier and anti-semite.


----------



## del

Sky Dancer said:


> There is no point in discussing how and why the Holocaust occurred with a Holocaust denier.



can't fool you.


----------



## Sunni Man

I believe that the Nazi's were racists and hate mongers who tried to spread their insane ideology to all of Europe.

Thankfully, they were defeated and the Nazi's and their movement was discredited. 


That being said, 

I don't see how denying the official holocaust story from a historical perspective, make's a person a nazi sympathizer?


----------



## KittenKoder

It's the reason all Sunnis threads turn into Sunni Bashing threads.


----------



## Sky Dancer

del said:


> Sky Dancer said:
> 
> 
> 
> There is no point in discussing how and why the Holocaust occurred with a Holocaust denier.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> can't fool you.
Click to expand...


Thanks Del.  That's high and sincere praise, lol.


----------



## Diuretic

Sunni Man said:


> I believe that the Nazi's were racists and hate mongers who tried to spread their insane ideology to all of Europe.
> 
> Thankfully, they were defeated and the Nazi's and their movement was discredited.
> 
> 
> That being said,
> 
> I don't see how denying the official holocaust story from a historical perspective, make's a person a nazi sympathizer?



You might not be, but there are those with malice in their hearts who want to rehabilitate Nazism and part of that insidious process is in trying to prove that the Nazis didn't try to eradicate various racial, religious and ethnic groups in Europe.


----------



## KittenKoder

Diuretic said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> 
> I believe that the Nazi's were racists and hate mongers who tried to spread their insane ideology to all of Europe.
> 
> Thankfully, they were defeated and the Nazi's and their movement was discredited.
> 
> 
> That being said,
> 
> I don't see how denying the official holocaust story from a historical perspective, make's a person a nazi sympathizer?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You might not be, but there are those with malice in their hearts who want to rehabilitate Nazism and part of that insidious process is in trying to prove that the Nazis didn't try to eradicate various racial, religious and ethnic groups in Europe.
Click to expand...


Actually Sunni is ... or at least was like a few hours ago ... it just flipflops whenever there is something to be gained from it. Though it never actually gains anything because ... well ... hell, even Allie is smarter than him.


----------



## Sky Dancer

Maybe Sunni was in Iran with David Duke.


----------



## KittenKoder

Maybe he IS David Duke ... ooooh ....


----------



## Sky Dancer

This is a serious and important topic and it's annoying to see it derailed by Sunni Man over and over,


----------



## dilloduck

Sky Dancer said:


> Over half the states of Europe now criminalize Holocaust denial. They accept the premise that deniers are extremists who use denial, among other means, to rehabilitate Nazism. Their legal rationale in doing so is usually that denial negates the historical facts established at Nuremburg in 1945 rather than that it constitutes offensive or threatening speech. International agreements take the same line and this was reinforced and given a legal basis in April 2007 by the EU Common Framework Decision, which requires European states to criminalize denial. Legislation, however, has not stopped extremists from continuing to promote Holocaust denial and they are now joined and invigorated by Iran, which promotes it as state policy. Nevertheless, states now accept that Holocaust education is vital and several intergovernmental initiatives offer hope for the future.
> Institute for Global Jewish Affairs â Global Antisemitism, Anti-Israelism, Jewish Studies



Criminalizing what someone believes is bullshit.


----------



## Sky Dancer

Don't look at me, I didn't suggest it.  But I think the fact that most of the WWII was fought in Europe and impacted Europeans may have impacted their sensitivity to Holocaust denial.

They lived it, they saw it.  Denying what happened is the new anti-semitism.


----------



## Sunni Man

Diuretic said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> 
> I believe that the Nazi's were racists and hate mongers who tried to spread their insane ideology to all of Europe.
> 
> Thankfully, they were defeated and the Nazi's and their movement was discredited.
> 
> 
> That being said,
> 
> I don't see how denying the official holocaust story from a historical perspective, make's a person a nazi sympathizer?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You might not be, but there are those with malice in their hearts who want to rehabilitate Nazism and part of that insidious process is in trying to prove that the Nazis didn't try to eradicate various racial, religious and ethnic groups in Europe.
Click to expand...

As I told Sky Dancer when we first meet on another Forum a long time ago. That was before she turned against me. 

I am a white man married to a black woman.

So why would anyone think I would support the Nazis's or any other Aryan group?

They hate my wife, and would refer to my children as "mud babbies".


I deny the official holocaust story based on my own research, and not because of any special ideology or particular group.

To me the so called holocaust is not a clear cut case and needs further historical examination.

What's wrong with that?


----------



## DiveCon

Sunni Man said:


> Diuretic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> 
> I believe that the Nazi's were racists and hate mongers who tried to spread their insane ideology to all of Europe.
> 
> Thankfully, they were defeated and the Nazi's and their movement was discredited.
> 
> 
> That being said,
> 
> I don't see how denying the official holocaust story from a historical perspective, make's a person a nazi sympathizer?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You might not be, but there are those with malice in their hearts who want to rehabilitate Nazism and part of that insidious process is in trying to prove that the Nazis didn't try to eradicate various racial, religious and ethnic groups in Europe.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> As I told Sky Dancer when we first meet on another Forum a long time ago. That was before she turned against me.
> 
> I am a white man married to a black woman.
> 
> So why would anyone think I would support the Nazis's or any other Aryan group?
> 
> They hate my wife, and would refer to my children as "mud babbies".
> 
> 
> I deny the official holocaust story based on my own research, and not because of any special ideology or particular group.
> 
> To me the so called holocaust is not a clear cut case and needs further historical examination.
> 
> What's wrong with that?
Click to expand...

then your research is flawed


----------



## dilloduck

Sky Dancer said:


> Don't look at me, I didn't suggest it.  But I think the fact that most of the WWII was fought in Europe and impacted Europeans may have impacted their sensitivity to Holocaust denial.
> 
> They lived it, they saw it.  Denying what happened is the new anti-semitism.



How about the exact DETAILS of what happened ? Do you get thrown in Der Schlammer in Germany if you say you think only  5,999,999 Jews were killed by the Nazis ? What the official poop that is so sacred that you cannot question it ?


----------



## Diuretic

dilloduck said:


> Sky Dancer said:
> 
> 
> 
> Over half the states of Europe now criminalize Holocaust denial. They accept the premise that deniers are extremists who use denial, among other means, to rehabilitate Nazism. Their legal rationale in doing so is usually that denial negates the historical facts established at Nuremburg in 1945 rather than that it constitutes offensive or threatening speech. International agreements take the same line and this was reinforced and given a legal basis in April 2007 by the EU Common Framework Decision, which requires European states to criminalize denial. Legislation, however, has not stopped extremists from continuing to promote Holocaust denial and they are now joined and invigorated by Iran, which promotes it as state policy. Nevertheless, states now accept that Holocaust education is vital and several intergovernmental initiatives offer hope for the future.
> Institute for Global Jewish Affairs â&#8364;&#8220; Global Antisemitism, Anti-Israelism, Jewish Studies
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Criminalizing what someone believes is bullshit.
Click to expand...


It's not criminal in my country.


----------



## Diuretic

Sunni Man said:


> As I told Sky Dancer when we first meet on another Forum a long time ago. That was before she turned against me.
> 
> I am a white man married to a black woman.
> 
> So why would anyone think I would support the Nazis's or any other Aryan group?
> 
> They hate my wife, and would refer to my children as "mud babbies".
> 
> 
> I deny the official holocaust story based on my own research, and not because of any special ideology or particular group.
> 
> To me the so called holocaust is not a clear cut case and needs further historical examination.
> 
> What's wrong with that?



Your antecedents have nothing to do with the validity of your argument one way or the other, let me make that clear.  Also me me make it clear that you're entitled to your views.  You're also entitled to have those views - not you - attacked on the basis that they have no basis in fact and are revisionist.  Nothing personal, just attacking your views.


----------



## Diuretic

dilloduck said:


> How about the exact DETAILS of what happened ? Do you get thrown in Der Schlammer in Germany if you say you think only  5,999,999 Jews were killed by the Nazis ? What the official poop that is so sacred that you cannot question it ?



No, you just get remedial maths.  

But now you're nitpicking, reminds me of the old joke about the woman who thought she wasn't a prostitute.


----------



## Sunni Man

In Europe, I wonder if doubting the official Anne Frank story is the like denying the holocaust and you could go to jail?


----------



## dilloduck

Diuretic said:


> dilloduck said:
> 
> 
> 
> How about the exact DETAILS of what happened ? Do you get thrown in Der Schlammer in Germany if you say you think only  5,999,999 Jews were killed by the Nazis ? What the official poop that is so sacred that you cannot question it ?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No, you just get remedial maths.
> 
> But now you're nitpicking, reminds me of the old joke about the woman who thought she wasn't a prostitute.
Click to expand...


admittedly my example was nitpicking but only to make a point----what are the official details that cannot be denied ? Numbers ? places ? Intent? What puts you over the line from a questioner to criminal denier ?


----------



## DiveCon

dilloduck said:


> Diuretic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> dilloduck said:
> 
> 
> 
> How about the exact DETAILS of what happened ? Do you get thrown in Der Schlammer in Germany if you say you think only  5,999,999 Jews were killed by the Nazis ? What the official poop that is so sacred that you cannot question it ?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No, you just get remedial maths.
> 
> But now you're nitpicking, reminds me of the old joke about the woman who thought she wasn't a prostitute.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> admittedly my example was nitpicking but only to make a point----what are the official details that cannot be denied ? Numbers ? places ? Intent? What puts you over the line from a questioner to criminal denier ?
Click to expand...

i dont think it should be criminal either

but it sure help to expose the morons faster when they are allowed to spout their crap


----------



## dilloduck

DiveCon said:


> dilloduck said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Diuretic said:
> 
> 
> 
> No, you just get remedial maths.
> 
> But now you're nitpicking, reminds me of the old joke about the woman who thought she wasn't a prostitute.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> admittedly my example was nitpicking but only to make a point----what are the official details that cannot be denied ? Numbers ? places ? Intent? What puts you over the line from a questioner to criminal denier ?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> i dont think it should be criminal either
> 
> but it sure help to expose the morons faster when they are allowed to spout their crap
Click to expand...


So do YOU have any idea what the sacred facts are that one must not question ?


----------



## Diuretic

Sunni Man said:


> In Europe, I wonder if doubting the official Anne Frank story is the like denying the holocaust and you could go to jail?



I think it's on in Germany but maybe France, Austria, don't know.  But the wording of the statutes would have to be examined.


----------



## Sunni Man

dilloduck said:


> DiveCon said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> dilloduck said:
> 
> 
> 
> admittedly my example was nitpicking but only to make a point----what are the official details that cannot be denied ? Numbers ? places ? Intent? What puts you over the line from a questioner to criminal denier ?
> 
> 
> 
> i dont think it should be criminal either
> 
> but it sure help to expose the morons faster when they are allowed to spout their crap
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> So do YOU have any idea what the sacred facts are that one must not question ?
Click to expand...


Diloduck, you are treading on very thin anti-semite ice


----------



## dilloduck

Sunni Man said:


> dilloduck said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> DiveCon said:
> 
> 
> 
> i dont think it should be criminal either
> 
> but it sure help to expose the morons faster when they are allowed to spout their crap
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So do YOU have any idea what the sacred facts are that one must not question ?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Diloduck, you are treading on very thin anti-semite ice
Click to expand...


I got jealous of you getting all the attention----didn't you read my post ?


----------



## Diuretic

dilloduck said:


> admittedly my example was nitpicking but only to make a point----what are the official details that cannot be denied ? Numbers ? places ? Intent? What puts you over the line from a questioner to criminal denier ?



Facts I suppose.  History is a complex thing isn't it?  As a kid I was always taught that the Battle of Agincourt was won by brave Englsh knights and stout archers with their great Engish longbows.  Then I find out as an adult that the French knights fucked up by riding downhill into a marsh where the English were hanging out.  Damn facts, interfere with a perfectly good fairy story.  But the facts will out.  

The facts are in as far as the "Final Solution to the Jewish Question" is concerned and they are littered everywhere.  The fact is that it did happen and the evidence is there.  If someone can accept that fact then they can go on and look at the evidence of numbers from meticulous records that the Nazis kept.  I believe some of that evidence may have been produced at the trial of Eichmann, but I can't be sure of that, I remember the trial but I wasn't that old (sentient but not adult) at the time.  So the evidence is there.  This isn't some sort of fanciful fairytale for kids, it's based on facts.  Those who were there testified and were cross-examined.  That's good enough for me.


----------



## DiveCon

dilloduck said:


> DiveCon said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> dilloduck said:
> 
> 
> 
> admittedly my example was nitpicking but only to make a point----what are the official details that cannot be denied ? Numbers ? places ? Intent? What puts you over the line from a questioner to criminal denier ?
> 
> 
> 
> i dont think it should be criminal either
> 
> but it sure help to expose the morons faster when they are allowed to spout their crap
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> So do YOU have any idea what the sacred facts are that one must not question ?
Click to expand...

not really

i dont live there


----------



## dilloduck

Diuretic said:


> dilloduck said:
> 
> 
> 
> admittedly my example was nitpicking but only to make a point----what are the official details that cannot be denied ? Numbers ? places ? Intent? What puts you over the line from a questioner to criminal denier ?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Facts I suppose.  History is a complex thing isn't it?  As a kid I was always taught that the Battle of Agincourt was won by brave Englsh knights and stout archers with their great Engish longbows.  Then I find out as an adult that the French knights fucked up by riding downhill into a marsh where the English were hanging out.  Damn facts, interfere with a perfectly good fairy story.  But the facts will out.
> 
> The facts are in as far as the "Final Solution to the Jewish Question" is concerned and they are littered everywhere.  The fact is that it did happen and the evidence is there.  If someone can accept that fact then they can go on and look at the evidence of numbers from meticulous records that the Nazis kept.  I believe some of that evidence may have been produced at the trial of Eichmann, but I can't be sure of that, I remember the trial but I wasn't that old (sentient but not adult) at the time.  So the evidence is there.  This isn't some sort of fanciful fairytale for kids, it's based on facts.  Those who were there testified and were cross-examined.  That's good enough for me.
Click to expand...



Well those pesky facts do have a way of changing over time and I think something terribly wrong occured. I 'd  be hard pressed to state for certain that I knew exactly what it was tho. And I guess since I don't plan on going to Europe anytime soon, I don't need to know where the law draws the line.


----------



## Sunni Man

What disturbs me, is that professional historians and academics are terrified to research the holocaust in an objective manner.

Because if they publish anything that deviates from the official story.

They will be labeled as anti-semites and nazis. 

Their careers will be ruined forever.


----------



## Diuretic

dilloduck said:


> Well those pesky facts do have a way of changing over time and I think something terribly wrong occured. I 'd  be hard pressed to state for certain that I knew exactly what it was tho. And I guess since I don't plan on going to Europe anytime soon, I don't need to know where the law draws the line.



The facts don't change, just how they're represented.


----------



## reality bites

Hi there.

I'm new, this forum seems to be quite busy and has plenty of interaction, so I thought it would be interesting to participate here.

As a number of other posters here have expressed themselves, I too have serious questions regarding the accuracy of the conventional historical consensus.

It is very noticeable that when posters within any message board, or political forum does actually have the fortitude to express doubts, or ask questions, they are usually overwhelmingly silenced.

They are often effectively silenced by a combination of accusations of antisemitism, or by a group(s) of other participating posters casting unfounded aspersions with reckless abandon; 

I am hoping that is not the rule, or authoritative standard here; although it has been noticeable reading this thread that at least one poster feels that any person who does not accept without question, that conventional Holocaust history is unequivocally conclusive, can only be using flawed research.

The  psychology of the Holocaust is an interesting subject.  I posted a very similar post to this one in another forum recently, so it will be extremely interesting to see how posters respond to my thoughts here. 

The demonstrated response by the US admin and many ordinary Americans to the recent events in Gaza demonstrate how the Holocaust has, since its conception, had a dramatic effect on how people (Americans in particular) irrevocably establish (or at least it strongly influences) habitual, and characteristic mental attitudes; which can be and often are, pivotal regarding the response to mechanisms and actions deployed by Israel against the people of Palestine.

It is also interesting how Americans view the responses of the people of other countries, particularly those of Europeans.

I personally think the psychology of the Holocaust prevents any form of separation between the Holocaust and the historical/recent actions against other middle eastern countries, in particular Gaza, by Israel. 

For example, in another forum recently when I critisised Israels actions in Gaza, using and commenting on a mainstream news article the response was as follows;

*"If you truly don't understand why the Israelis behave as they do, you might want to watch this" 

Followed by a link to a video of holocaust narrative and photographs.*

This is a very common response, regarding any actions carried out by Israel.  For a lot of people there is and can be no separation.

I personally find this commonly encountered tenet highly dangerous, especially when one considers that Israel is currently the target of at least 65 UN resolutions, refuse to abide by the U.N. Charter and the 1949 Fourth Geneva Convention Relative to the Protection of Civilian Persons in Time of War. 

It also displays how such mechanisms have been incorporated and used to spread, normalize and induce acceptance of a particular doctrine and/or system of principles and justifications no matter how grievous and inhumane they are to others. 

This has also has to some extent invariably influenced the often unfounded presence of and strength of anti-Arab Racism (particularly toward ordinary Gazans) in the US and a few other countries. 

The problem we face today is that due to fear of being otracised by mainstream society, too many people are afraid to say anything to critisise Israel, or those Jews and non Jews alike who wish to stifle free speech.

This is regardless of what those people really think and feel; even if no preventative penal retribution is in force with which to threaten people. 

What I find incredibly interesting is that the research of the Jewish Holocaust during WW2, is an area which is almost off-limits as far as many are concerned and so can be used without impunity to dismiss actions by Israel, regardless of the moral dilemma it poses. 

The only time modern research is accepted is when the outcome of the research, is already known and supportive of conventional consensus. 

There appears to be no other area of history where such constraints apply. Questioning of conventional consensus is met with vociferous attacks from Jews and non-Jews alike. Accusations of Holocaust denial, anti-Semitism, Nazi.. etc are terms which are thrown around with reckless abandon but why?

If all that happened is true then why resist investigation. What lies behind this? Even if the researcher has a specific bias, if the conventional historical data is accurate all he/she is going to find is evidence that supports conventional history.

This denial of openness that Jews and non Jews alike use to attack people with questions (deniers??), seems to share dangerous and shocking parallels with the most recent events in Gaza. For example, no external journalism allowed, you just have to believe us, don&#8217;t you dare not, remember the 'Holocaust&#8217;, even if it has no relation, or interconnection to the actions being borne upon innocent Gazan civilians.

Where people create these clouds of secrecy, there is always a given reason, but to the human conscience, it will always looks bad anyway. 

The following link is to a very interesting video produced by a Jewish gentleman by the name of David Cole, who set out to investigate the many potential discrepancies surrounding the holocausts historical claims.  Such was the reaction by fellow Jews, this gentleman I believe, has also been bullied into infinite silence. 

(*unfortunately I cannot post a link until I have posted 15 times, if anyone is interested in viewing this video, perhaps I am allowed to state where to find it?  The documentary can be found at Google videoplay under the title David Cole - The Truth Behind the Gates of Auschwitz,  parts 1 and 2. )*

The video brings to the fore the concept that much of the data used to support the accuracy of events surrounding the Holocaust are based entirely on witness testimony.

Now, considering that several well known revisionists have been demonised as &#8216;Holocaust Deniers&#8217; and also faced penal retribution, even though, crucially, it has since been proven that several of their claims disputing the accepted historical consensus have been established beyond doubt, the subject does, at least, deserve genuine and substantial debate .

The main question I have is why specific governments, organisations, and groups of people/individuals around the world absolutely demand that valid historical debate be stifled, prohibited and left open to litigation regarding the holocaust, whilst at the same time all other events within history are free from such penal, or moral retribution?

Especially when the validity of such historical events can and does impinge greatly on consensus regarding subsequent actions and their eventual outcomes?

Also why many Holocaust historians/governments/organisations/people are so afraid of investigation and debate; in that anyone who so much as questions the history of the Holocaust is demonised, labelled anti-Semite, degenerate, a prevaricator and are completely ostracised.

The most advantageous action the Jews could enact, is to welcome the people who question the holocaust... invite them to question history, after all .....there is no doubt is there?


----------



## jillian

reality bites said:


> The most advantageous action the Jews could enact, is to welcome the people who question the holocaust... invite them to question history, after all .....there is no doubt is there?



One has to wonder why someone would choose to introduce themselves to a group of strangers in a way they never would in real life.

in answer to your question.... no. there is no doubt because Germans were meticulous in their record keeping. And no... one should not question it any more than one should question whether or not William the Conquerer existed.

p.s. only raging anti-semites and idiots question the holocaust.


----------



## roomy

Even raging anti semites 'Know' that it 'really' happened.Idiots can be forgiven and or ignored, antisemites need to be shut up.

William the who?


----------



## jillian

roomy said:


> Even raging anti semites 'Know' that it 'really' happened.Idiots can be forgiven and or ignored, antisemites need to be shut up.
> 
> William the who?





you know, French dude... took over England in 1066. 

but i should have known better than to read your post while drinking coffee. heh...


----------



## reality bites

jillian said:


> reality bites said:
> 
> 
> 
> The most advantageous action the Jews could enact, is to welcome the people who question the holocaust... invite them to question history, after all .....there is no doubt is there?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> One has to wonder why someone would choose to introduce themselves to a group of strangers in a way they never would in real life.
> 
> in answer to your question.... no. there is no doubt because Germans were meticulous in their record keeping. And no... one should not question it any more than one should question whether or not William the Conquerer existed.
> 
> p.s. only raging anti-semites and idiots question the holocaust.
Click to expand...


Jillian.

Firstly, a forum is not 'real life' how I introduce myself has no bearing whatsoever on the content of my post.

Secondly, you are doing exactly the same thing I spoke of within my post;   its endemic in some.  Yes, meticulous record keeping was used by the Nazi's; but these records do not refer to gassings, that is interpretation; the records refer only the numbers admitted into camps and records of the death of inmates, along with an abundance of other information.

There are diaries of Nazi soldiers in existence that do refer to mass killing, but they have not been verified as authentic, except by Jewish Historians, you see my valid point regarding why you cannot just state _*p.s. only raging anti-semites and idiots question the holocaust *_.  Your statement is not logical and does nothing to 'prove' the events that rely almost entirely on witness testimony. You see the problem I have here.  What are you so afraid of?

You should also be made aware that when rigorous testing was carried out by independent, reputable scientists on the walls of the gas chambers at Auschwitz , there was absolutely no Zyclon B residue whatsoever within any of them.  This is documented fact, fully available to the public.  

Although when the disinfection building, which survivors themselves stated was used to disinfect mattresses, the clothing of inmates etc. was also tested at the same time, the residue of Zyclon B was marked.  The official explanation of the results were at the time explained by the Jewish curator of Auschwitz (and this is also documented) as due to the fact that the gas chambers were only used for approx: twenty minutes a day, whereas  the disinfection building was used 24 hours a day.

You see my confusion here, _logically _the gas chambers used must have been running more than twenty minutes a day to enable the Nazi's to murder the millions of people?   This is the historical consensus and it somehow does not 'add up', which is one of the reasons why I feel that genuine investigation of the historical consensus of the Holocaust and especially Auschwitz  is long overdue and deserved .

I beg pardon, the only existing gas chamber.


----------



## editec

Sunni Man said:


> I believe that the Nazi's were racists and hate mongers who tried to spread their insane ideology to all of Europe.
> 
> Thankfully, they were defeated and the Nazi's and their movement was discredited.
> 
> 
> That being said,
> 
> I don't see how denying the official holocaust story from a historical perspective, make's a person a nazi sympathizer?


 
Then you are an idiot.


----------



## editec

Sunni Man said:


> What disturbs me, is that professional historians and academics are terrified to research the holocaust in an objective manner.


 
No, they're not. You're wrong.



> Because if they publish anything that deviates from the official story.
> 
> They will be labeled as anti-semites and nazis.


 
Worse than that to them, they're be labeled (and correctly, too) _incorrect revisionist _historians.  to a _real_ historian, that's a fate nobody wants.

They'll look, much as you do now, like god damned fools!



> Their careers will be ruined forever.


 
As well they should be.

They'll  have had to overlook the overwhelming evidence that includes: tens of thousand of personal testmonies, millions of NAZI records, records from BEFORE THE WAR which document the populations which disappeared, the accounts of soldiers which liberated the camps, and the even the testamonies of the NAZIs who worked at the holocaust, too.

So their careers should be ruined since they will have failed to do their jobs AS HISTORIANS.

If you believe the blather you spew, you are choosing to believe a lie which is unsupportable by the records, Sunni.

One has to choose to believe the lie in that case.


----------



## roomy

I don't believe for one moment that he believes it and I don't believe he is an idiot. so he must be...


----------



## reality bites

> What disturbs me, is that professional historians and academics are terrified to research the holocaust in an objective manner.





> No, they're not. You're wrong.



Then why are professional historians and any others who question the accepted historical consensus open to penal and/or moral retribution with which to shut them up?

As I already stated; What are people afraid of exactly?  Bully tactics will never stop people from asking genuine questions, regarding any subject matter, regardless.


----------



## roomy

reality bites said:


> What disturbs me, is that professional historians and academics are terrified to research the holocaust in an objective manner.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No, they're not. You're wrong.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Then why are professional historians and any others who question the accepted historical consensus open to penal and/or moral retribution with which to shut them up?
> 
> As I already stated; What are people afraid of exactly?  Bully tactics will never stop people from asking genuine questions, regarding any subject matter, regardless.
Click to expand...



Because 'THE WHOLE WIDE FUCKING WORLD' has accepted as'FACT' that the holocaust happened, therefore those that 'DENY' it are puposefully publishing/orating antisemitic/racist  bullshit which happens to be 'AGAINST THE FUCKING LAW'.


----------



## editec

reality bites said:


> What disturbs me, is that professional historians and academics are terrified to research the holocaust in an objective manner.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No, they're not. You're wrong.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Then why are professional historians and any others who question the accepted historical consensus open to penal and/or moral retribution with which to shut them up?
Click to expand...

 
I cannot speak for those nations which go after these people.

Perhaps in the case of GERMANY, they're fully aware how a LIE becomes THE BIG LIE because they went though the NAZI experience and don't want to relive it.



> As I already stated; What are people afraid of exactly? Bully tactics will never stop people from asking genuine questions, regarding any subject matter, regardless.


 
You assume that people are afraid?

How about historians just getting sick and tired of liars pretending to be historians?

I think that about sums up my contempt for these idiots.

I have exactly the same kind of contempt for Zionist revisiont historians, too.

The truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, shall set you free.


----------



## reality bites

roomy said:


> reality bites said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What disturbs me, is that professional historians and academics are terrified to research the holocaust in an objective manner.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No, they're not. You're wrong.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Then why are professional historians and any others who question the accepted historical consensus open to penal and/or moral retribution with which to shut them up?
> 
> As I already stated; What are people afraid of exactly?  Bully tactics will never stop people from asking genuine questions, regarding any subject matter, regardless.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Because 'THE WHOLE WIDE FUCKING WORLD' has accepted as'FACT' that the holocaust happened, therefore those that 'DENY' it are puposefully publishing/orating antisemitic/racist  bullshit which happens to be 'AGAINST THE FUCKING LAW'.
Click to expand...


That is not a logical, or valid answer.  You are also incorrect, the whole world has not accepted every aspect of the Holocaust as fact.  As I stated earlier, bully tactics will not shut those people with genuine questions up, regardless.

By the way Roomy, for your information, using a large font has absolutely no effect on logic and reason.

The fact _still _remains that all aspects of history, no matter how emotional people may feel about said aspects,are freely open and always have been, to debate and historical investigation.

There is absolutely no valid reason why the historical consensus regarding the Holocaust should not be the same, no matter how loud, much, or often people who want to stifle free speech, or exert control shout.


----------



## reality bites

> The truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, shall set you free.



Very profound words, but you don't believe them do you?

Not all historians are liars, nor have a specific agenda, yet you feel they should not be extended the same freedoms as given to every other specific subject orientated historian.

If all aspects of the Holocaust are true, then any investigations will only mean the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth as you see it, will be discovered.


----------



## Yukon

roomy said:


> Even raging anti semites 'Know' that it 'really' happened.Idiots can be forgiven and or ignored, antisemites need to be shut up.
> 
> William the who?



My child, you are so pathetic. Your name calling is to be expected. We free people believe and know that it is our God given right to challenge unproven theories. Did 6 million die ? I say it can't be proven. I say that there weren't 6 million Jewish people in Europe prior to 1939. This entire event is a myth. A myth that was created by Hollywood. You, my child, myths - Santa Clause, Easter Bunny, Tooth Fairy, Parting of the Red Sea, The Resurrection, etc. etc.


----------



## Xenophon

Yukon said:


> rediculous nonsense removed.



I didn't believe there was anyone more historicaly rediculous then Sunni or Shogun on this board.

That is, until now.

You are the new leader in ludicrous nonsense.


----------



## Xenophon

Yukon said:


> My child, you are so pathetic. Your name calling is to be expected. We free people believe and know that it is our God given right to challenge unproven theories. Did 6 million die ? I say it can't be proven. I say that there weren't 6 million Jewish people in Europe prior to 1939. This entire event is a myth. A myth that was created by Hollywood. You, my child, myths - Santa Clause, Easter Bunny, Tooth Fairy, Parting of the Red Sea, The Resurrection, etc. etc.


What you say is unbelievably childish, it has been proven time and time again, confirmed by the people who perpetuated the crime.

Sticking your fingers in your ears and whining 'no no no' won't change what happened one iota.


----------



## dilloduck

Xenophon said:


> Yukon said:
> 
> 
> 
> My child, you are so pathetic. Your name calling is to be expected. We free people believe and know that it is our God given right to challenge unproven theories. Did 6 million die ? I say it can't be proven. I say that there weren't 6 million Jewish people in Europe prior to 1939. This entire event is a myth. A myth that was created by Hollywood. You, my child, myths - Santa Clause, Easter Bunny, Tooth Fairy, Parting of the Red Sea, The Resurrection, etc. etc.
> 
> 
> 
> What you say is unbelievably childish, it has been proven time and time again, confirmed by the people who perpetuated the crime.
> 
> Sticking your fingers in your ears and whining 'no no no' won't change what happened one iota.
Click to expand...


Is 6 million an estimation or is there a list of 6 million names somewhere ?


----------



## Xenophon

reality bites said:


> Revisionism and tripe removed



I post this again, because you are a classic example of this:

*Despite the fact that the tens of thousands of prisoners who survived Auschwitz were witnesses to the crimes committed there; despite the fact that they left behind thousands of depositions, accounts, and memoirs; despite the fact that considerable quantities of documents, photographs, and material objects remain from the campdespite all of this, there are people and organizations who deny that hundreds of thousands of people were murdered in this camp, that gas chambers operated there, or that the crematoria could burn several thousand corpses per day. In other words, they deny that Auschwitz was the scene of genocide.*

Denial of the Holocaust and the genocide in Auschwitz 

And I will keep on posting it as more of you come out of the woodwork.

'Legitmate research' my ass, you tip off your true postion by claiming Israel defies 65 UN resolutions but fail to mention everyone one them was put togther by the Arab league and went through the general assembly to be rubber stamped by the usual suspects.

You goobers show up on message boards and pretend to be realsonable while you spew your garbage.

No sale, your type is worse then Sunni, he's just an idiot, you are a swindler.


----------



## Yukon

DilDo,

When WWII ended the figure was estimated at 3 - 4 Million. It has been inflated as a result of every movie made by Hollywood on the subject. The current figure is 6 million. Is it an estimate, a guess? Who knows?

What we do know is that the Germans were meticulous in their record keeping; even the Jews admit this fact. So perhaps there is a list of those who supposedly were exterminated but believe me the world will never see it.


----------



## editec

reality bites said:


> The truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, shall set you free.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Very profound words, but you don't believe them do you?
> 
> Not all historians are liars, nor have a specific agenda, yet you feel they should not be extended the same freedoms as given to every other specific subject orientated historian.
> 
> If all aspects of the Holocaust are true, then any investigations will only mean the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth as you see it, will be discovered.
Click to expand...

 

When a holocaust denier comes to us with some NEW evidence fine.

Mostly all they do is repeat the same discredited bullshit over and over again.

They have been spinning falsehoods for years and years and years.

Enough already.

Consider that Sunni actually had the termitity to offer us the *Protocals of Zion* as FACT.

So please do give me a fucking break.

This isn't about academic freedom this is about trying to pass of lies as facts.


----------



## Xenophon

dilloduck said:


> Is 6 million an estimation or is there a list of 6 million names somewhere ?









JEWISH POPULATION OF EUROPE IN 1933: POPULATION DATA BY COUNTRY

This isn't hard to find.

What is hard to find is the bodies.


----------



## dilloduck

Yukon said:


> DilDo,
> 
> When WWII ended the figure was estimated at 3 - 4 Million. It has been inflated as a result of every movie made by Hollywood on the subject. The current figure is 6 million. Is it an estimate, a guess? Who knows?
> 
> What we do know is that the Germans were meticulous in their record keeping; even the Jews admit this fact. So perhaps there is a list of those who supposedly were exterminated but believe me the world will never see it.



I wonder if you said that only 4 million people died at the hands of Nazi cruelty you would be thrown in jail.


----------



## Sunni Man

editec said:


> reality bites said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, shall set you free.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Very profound words, but you don't believe them do you?
> 
> Not all historians are liars, nor have a specific agenda, yet you feel they should not be extended the same freedoms as given to every other specific subject orientated historian.
> 
> If all aspects of the Holocaust are true, then any investigations will only mean the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth as you see it, will be discovered.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Consider that Sunni actually had the termitity to offer us the *Protocals of Zion* as FACT.
Click to expand...


That is not ture Editec. I never stated the Protocals of Zion was a legitimate or factual document.

I have stated several times here that have no idea if the book is fact or fiction.

What I said was; even if the Protocols are a fraud: 

They contain many truths and read like a list of current events unfolding before our eyes.


----------



## Yukon

Of course it "isn't hard to find", you can ask any Rabbi. Please, Xenophon, for the sake of credibility at least post some information from an unbiased, neutral organization.

I did a search on "no extermination of Jews" and about got 3,200,000 posts to support my question. Do you accept that as proof? I doubt it.




Xenophon said:


> dilloduck said:
> 
> 
> 
> Is 6 million an estimation or is there a list of 6 million names somewhere ?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JEWISH POPULATION OF EUROPE IN 1933: POPULATION DATA BY COUNTRY
> 
> This isn't hard to find.
> 
> What is hard to find is the bodies.
Click to expand...


----------



## dilloduck

Sunni Man said:


> editec said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> reality bites said:
> 
> 
> 
> Very profound words, but you don't believe them do you?
> 
> Not all historians are liars, nor have a specific agenda, yet you feel they should not be extended the same freedoms as given to every other specific subject orientated historian.
> 
> If all aspects of the Holocaust are true, then any investigations will only mean the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth as you see it, will be discovered.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Consider that Sunni actually had the termitity to offer us the *Protocals of Zion* as FACT.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> That is not ture Editec. I never stated the Protocals of Zion was a legitimate or factual document.
> 
> I have stated several times here that have no idea if the book is fact or fiction.
> 
> What I said was; even if the Protocols are a fraud:
> 
> They contain many truths and read like a list of current events unfolding before our eyes.
Click to expand...


Sunni--just exactly what is it that you claimed never happened ?


----------



## reality bites

> Perhaps in the case of GERMANY, they're fully aware how a LIE becomes THE BIG LIE because they went though the NAZI experience and don't want to relive it.



The same could be said for many Jewish people and the authenticity of the Holocaust could it not?

A small lie can become a big lie, we have ascertained this, yes?  

As almost all evidence supporting Gas Chambers and the numbers killed in such a manner relies almost entirely on witness testimony alone, then we also have to ascertain that all witness testimony is above reproach and can where possible, be proven.

This is where historians come in; they challenge the accepted consensus (on any historical subject matter) and ascertain whether or not a theory is likely to be historically accurate; this is normally an ongoing operation and has been the accepted means in which to try to prove theories and/or reach the truth as far as is possible for centuries.

Such efforts by historians are in action continually, regarding every aspect of our history, apart from one, which has been completely censored.

Now, this lack of freedom to challenge and/or investigate the historical validity of the Holocaust, means in effect, that we have no way of genuinely proving that the witness testimony is not a small lie, that grew into a big lie , or even possibly due to the powerful and long reaching effects of a Chinese whisper.

To any thinking person there is something intrinsically wrong, inappropriate and unjust, that such legislative measures have/are being put into place; along with the casting of invalid moral aspersions, which are also used as a preventative tool.

What it amounts to is, the removal of individual freedoms,  wholesale, only when said freedoms surround investigation and/or debate of this particular subject matter alone.


----------



## Xenophon

Yukon said:


> Of course it "isn't hard to find", you can ask any Rabbi. Please, Xenophon, for the sake of credibility at least post some information from an unbiased, neutral organization.


Yes, like the United States Government, where the link is from. 

God, you are dog stupid.

BTW, there were NINE million jews in Europe pre WWII, not 6, 6 million is the number the Nazis planted, BY THEIR OWN ADMISSION.


----------



## Xenophon

Sunni Man said:


> That is not ture Editec. I never stated the Protocals of Zion was a legitimate or factual document.


Liar, liar, pants on fire...

http://www.usmessageboard.com/consp...the-jewish-handbook-for-world-domination.html


----------



## reality bites

Xenophon said:


> reality bites said:
> 
> 
> 
> Revisionism and tripe removed
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I post this again, because you are a classic example of this:
> 
> *Despite the fact that the tens of thousands of prisoners who survived Auschwitz were witnesses to the crimes committed there; despite the fact that they left behind thousands of depositions, accounts, and memoirs; despite the fact that considerable quantities of documents, photographs, and material objects remain from the campdespite all of this, there are people and organizations who deny that hundreds of thousands of people were murdered in this camp, that gas chambers operated there, or that the crematoria could burn several thousand corpses per day. In other words, they deny that Auschwitz was the scene of genocide.*
> 
> (*Url removed to allow me to post*)
> 
> And I will keep on posting it as more of you come out of the woodwork.
> 
> 'Legitmate research' my ass, you tip off your true postion by claiming Israel defies 65 UN resolutions but fail to mention everyone one them was put togther by the Arab league and went through the general assembly to be rubber stamped by the usual suspects.
> 
> You goobers show up on message boards and pretend to be realsonable while you spew your garbage.
> 
> No sale, your type is worse then Sunni, he's just an idiot, you are a swindler.
Click to expand...


What are you afraid of here?  Removing data pertaining to genuine documented articles will not make such data go away you know.  This is another example of the behavoiur and mechanisms being used to silence people, which I mentioned in my first post. 

It was not tripe at all.  Everything I post is documented.  Would you like to see the papers pertaining to these tests which were carried out?  The source is impeccable and is not related in any way to 'swindlers'.  As for Israel defying 65 UN resolutions and your petty excuses, Shame on you.


----------



## Sunni Man

First of all, Dilloduck, I beleieve the number is closer to 2 or 3 hundred thousand jewish victims.

Secondly, there were no gas chambers for the extermination of people. The not air tight buildings were for lice and parisite removal.

Next, the ovens were way too small for cremating bodies. It would have been highly ineffecient, a tremendous waste of fuel, and a huge ash removal and logistical problem..

Question: why take the time to tattoo people with numbers if you are going to turn right around and kill them?

The Germans where known for being highly efficient. The holocaust story as told is a lesson in gross inefficiency


----------



## Xenophon

reality bites said:


> What are you afraid of here?


That people not smart enough to realize what a phoney you are might take you seriously.

That is always a danger.


----------



## random3434

Xenophon said:


> reality bites said:
> 
> 
> 
> What are you afraid of here?
> 
> 
> 
> That people not smart enough to realize what a phoney you are might take you seriously.
> 
> That is always a danger.
Click to expand...


reality bite seems like another one of those posters who thinks if he uses big words his message seems more valid. It's just another sock puppet tactic, like his other buddies here.


----------



## Sunni Man

Xenophon said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> 
> That is not ture Editec. I never stated the Protocals of Zion was a legitimate or factual document.
> 
> 
> 
> Liar, liar, pants on fire...
> 
> http://www.usmessageboard.com/consp...the-jewish-handbook-for-world-domination.html
Click to expand...

Where in an of these posts do I claim the Protocols of Zion is a 100% true or factual document?

Like I said: I have No idea if the book is fact or a fiction.

But even if it is a fraud.

So what???

It reads like it is true, and lays out the Zionist agenda in a way that anyone can recognize in the current events today.


----------



## midcan5

"We first kill people with our minds, before we kill them with weapons. Whatever the conflict, the enemy is always the destroyer. We're on God's side; they're barbaric. We're good, they're evil. War gives us a feeling of moral clarity that we lack at other times." Sam Keen

This is the second time today I will answer some of this very complex question with a piece of poetry. How many people know people well or know what they are capable of given fear and a persuasive reason for hatred. Consider our actions after 911 how many would have easily be called on to kill. How many did and yet the perpetrators were already dead. Add financial and economic ruin and mankind quickly cease to be human. Hitler rose to power during a time unique in its many failures after WWI. But the impulses that made what happened possible still exist and are strong in some people. I just pulled my "Becoming Evil" off the shelf to glance at: ethnocentrism, xenophobia and a desire for social dominance are all key. But add fear and worry and the stage is set. I am amazed today at attitudes among people who fear a loss of job and the actions they go to to secure themselves. In the end people are not saints - at least the majority of them.

[ame=http://www.amazon.com/Becoming-Evil-Ordinary-Genocide-Killing/dp/0195314565/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1235317402&sr=1-3]Amazon.com: Becoming Evil: How Ordinary People Commit Genocide and Mass Killing: James E. Waller: Books[/ame]

This poem was listed in Waller's book.

"Start with an empty canvas
Sketch in broad outline the forms of
men, women, and children.

Dip into the unconsciousness well of your own
disowned darkness
with a wide brush and
stain the strangers with the sinister hue
of the shadow.

Trace onto the face of the enemy the greed,
hatred, carelessness you dare not claim as
your own.

Obscure the sweet individuality of each face.

Erase all hints of the myriad loves, hopes,
fears that play through the kaleidoscope of
every infinite heart.

Twist the smile until it forms the downward
arc of cruelty.

Strip flesh from bone until only the
abstract skeleton of death remains.

Exaggerate each feature until man is
metamorphasized into beast, vermin, insect.

Fill in the background with malignant
figures from ancient nightmares  devils,
demons, myrmidons of evil.

When your icon of the enemy is complete
you will be able to kill without guilt,
slaughter without shame.

The thing you destroy will have become
merely an enemy of God, an impediment
to the sacred dialectic of history."

Sam Keen


----------



## reality bites

> Revisionism and tripe removed



Would you like to demonstrate to myself and the other posters here that the data I posted was tripe?

Your actions are a classic example of everything I have stated, regarding inappropriate and unjust mechanisms.  Show me and the others how experiments carried out by independent respected scientists can be construed as 'tripe', then you can remove the writings of others with just cause.

At the moment you are displaying the actions of one who weants to stifle free speech.  Just because you may not agree with my writings, does not mean they are lacking in validity.

You have also no idea what my motives are here.


----------



## reality bites

Xenophon said:


> reality bites said:
> 
> 
> 
> What are you afraid of here?
> 
> 
> 
> That people not smart enough to realize what a phoney you are might take you seriously.
> 
> That is always a danger.
Click to expand...


Demonstrate that I am a phony.  I challenge you to do so.


----------



## Sunni Man

I have posted this link about the holocaust several times on this board.

Auschwitz and the holocaust 

All I ever got for it was personal attacks and name calling.

Not one person was able to refute a single item on the video.


----------



## midcan5

And for those who deny it,  I personally knew a Polish Jew and Polish Christian who both showed me their tattooed numbers and told of the horror. My father in law was in the first American group to liberate Mauthausen, his descriptions are horrifying when he can even hazard discussion. And discussions of numbers are absurd to the dead. 

Mauthausen | historical film footage

Seeing is believing.


----------



## Xenophon

reality bites said:


> Demonstrate that I am a phony.  I challenge you to do so.


Ha ha ha, reread your posts, you did the work for me.

NO legitimate historian doubts the holocuast.

Not a single one.

Thanks for playing, have fun back on stormfront.


----------



## Xenophon

Echo Zulu said:


> reality bite seems like another one of those posters who thinks if he uses big words his message seems more valid. It's just another sock puppet tactic, like his other buddies here.


If you read the entire article for Aushwitz museum site i linked too, it goes into detail about his type, the puesdo scince people and 'investigators' who 'just want to set the record straight' by trying to debunk historical fact.

It's always fun to see these lil Nazis among us try to pretend as if truth and science mean something to them.


----------



## Sunni Man

midcan5 said:


> And for those who deny it,  I personally knew a Polish Jew and Polish Christian who both showed me their tattooed numbers


How come so many people seem to know someone with the tattoo?

This just proves my point that the Germans wern't out to kill everyone as the Holohoax claims.

These people survived because they were needed for work. 

Most camp prisoners lived and were freed at the end of the war.


----------



## reality bites

Xenophon said:


> reality bites said:
> 
> 
> 
> Demonstrate that I am a phony.  I challenge you to do so.
> 
> 
> 
> Ha ha ha, reread your posts, you did the work for me.
> 
> NO legitimate historian doubts the holocuast.
> 
> Not a single one.
> 
> Thanks for playing, have fun back on stormfront.
Click to expand...


You have just stated untruths once again regarding historians.  Demonstrate to me and the other posters that no historian disputes the validity of the historical consensus of the Holocaust.  I challenge you to do so.  

So far you have proven nothing at all regarding me, or my motives here.  What you have proven is, that you are very naive and extremely childish.  i ask you again. show me how my post regarding experiements carried out by independent respected scientists on the Gas chamber in Auschwitz re: Zyclon B residue is tripe.  I am still waiting.  



You are also displaying a distinct lack of rational judgment here.


----------



## ABikerSailor

Tell ya what Sunnidiot.......go to Washington DC.  Then.......go to the Holocaust Museum on the Mall.

THEN come back and tell us all what a hoax it was.

My girlfriend during my senior year?  Her father was the 3rd American GI into Dachau.  He brought back souveniers.......one was a set of pistol grips made of human bone.

By the way.......before you ask?  I went to the Holocaust Museum.  It was a very real experience, and they put it together well.  The bunkroom and the rail car are especially scary.  You can actually feel the presence of the people who perished.


----------



## Xenophon

reality bites said:


> Douchebaggery removed


I bet you bought yourself a lil Hitler Jugend suit, you wear all proudly when nobody is looking.


----------



## random3434

Here is where these idiots get their info, even though the Supreme Court says it is full of lies:


Did Six Million Really Die? - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Anybody can write anything, and the gullible will believe it, like Yukon,sunniboy and reality bite it seems. 


Maybe I'll write a book about the liars on the internet! I bet it would be a best seller!


----------



## editec

> As almost all evidence supporting Gas Chambers and the numbers killed in such a manner relies almost entirely on witness testimony alone, then we also have to ascertain that all witness testimony is above reproach and can where possible, be proven.


 
Nonsense,

Where did you hear this crap?

Do you NOT understand that the NAZIs kept meticulous records of who they killed?

The evidence that the holocaust happened is overwhelming and it comes to us as eyewitness testmony, records of the killers themselves, plus the missing millions who were carted off to camps and never seen again.

The NAZI SCUM kept records of the daily gassing and burnings. They kept records of their effieiencies.

The evidence that it is a fruad is nothing but a load of big lie specious nonsense.

Do some fucking read of legitimate historians for christ's sakes.


----------



## Yukon

editec,

Can't you express yourself like a nomal, civilized person?


----------



## Xenophon

_*Thank you, gullible douchebags, keep denying my crimes, tell them it's all lies, and my type can rise again. *_


----------



## Sunni Man

ABikerSailor said:


> Tell ya what Sunnidiot.......go to Washington DC.  Then.......go to the Holocaust Museum on the Mall.
> 
> THEN come back and tell us all what a hoax it was.
> 
> My girlfriend during my senior year?  Her father was the 3rd American GI into Dachau.  He brought back souveniers.......one was a set of pistol grips made of human bone.
> 
> By the way.......before you ask?  I went to the Holocaust Museum.  It was a very real experience, and they put it together well.  The bunkroom and the rail car are especially scary.  You can actually feel the presence of the people who perished.


That so called Holocaust Museum in Washington d.c. is the Zionist Jews  version of Barnum & Bailey's 3 Ring Circus.

I am sure I would find it highly entertaining, but I would rather go to a real circus.

Because there, you at least get to see the elephants.


----------



## editec

Yukon said:


> editec,
> 
> Can't you express yourself like a nomal, civilized person?


 
_Fuckin-A_ I can.


----------



## reality bites

editec said:


> As almost all evidence supporting Gas Chambers and the numbers killed in such a manner relies almost entirely on witness testimony alone, then we also have to ascertain that all witness testimony is above reproach and can where possible, be proven.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Nonsense,
> 
> Where did you hear this crap?
> 
> Do you NOT understand that the NAZIs kept meticulous records of who they killed?
> 
> The evidence that the holocaust happened is ovewhelming.
> 
> The evidence that it is a fruad is specious nonsense.
> 
> Do some fucking read of legitimate historians for christ's sakes.
Click to expand...


I assure you I have.  i have also read the documentation you speak of, some of which is now open to public view.  

You are being disingenuous here.  The data you are referring to, via meticulous records, pertains only to the deaths of prisoners, it does not state they were gassed;  this comes from witness testimony and to be fair a few Nazi diaries.

The logistics do not add up at all.  This needs to be validated and the only way to do so is to open the way for historians to receive the freedom to do so.

Stop using expletives to detract from the subject matter at hand.

Xenophon, the more you remove valid and reasonable data I post, the weaker your stance becomes.  I ask you again, show me how the data I posted regarding residue of Zyclon B at Auschwitz is 'tripe'..  You have not done so because you cannot, all you are good at is demonstrating childish behaviour and a lack of clear judgment.


----------



## Xenophon

reality bites said:


> Hitler's dirty work removed.



*Yes young douchebag, yes!

Keep trying to fool them, there are so many more Jews to kill!!*


----------



## Sunni Man

Xenophon said:


> reality bites said:
> 
> 
> 
> Douchebaggery removed
> 
> 
> 
> I bet you bought yourself a lil Hitler Jugend suit, you wear all proudly when nobody is looking.
Click to expand...


So Xenophon, your argument has gotten so weak, that now you have to resort to attacking the poster and not the evidence?


----------



## Xenophon

Sunni Man said:


> So Xenophon, your argument has gotten so weak, that now you have to resort to attacking the poster and not the evidence?




*Yes Sunni, yes, excuse my crimes!

Lie to them!

Fool them!*


----------



## Sunni Man

Xenophon said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> 
> So Xenophon, your argument has gotten so weak, that now you have to resort to attacking the poster and not the evidence?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Yes Sunni, yes, excuse my crimes!
> 
> Lie to them!
> 
> Fool them!*
Click to expand...

Are you a closet nazi Xenophon?

You sure like to post pictures of Hitler and the Nazis!!!


----------



## Xenophon

Sunni Man said:


> Are you a closet nazi Xenophon?
> 
> You sure like to post pictures of Hitler and the Nazis!!!


And then Sunni had found his calling, and began to spread new pictures over the internet...


----------



## Sunni Man

The topic of this thread Xenophon is "Why did the holocaust occur? "

Can we get back to the subject?

Thank You


----------



## reality bites

And this person is considered  a _responsible _person who is worthy of trust, or belief and has the _authority _to  'monitor' posters and remove other peoples posts only because he/she does not agree with the data written???

Hmmmm....and who monitors the one who monitors one wonders.  

When one has no argument, when one cannot debate the issues at hand, resort to casting personal aspersions (even though they do absolutely nothing bar disrupt, stifle freedom of speech, not to mention make them look a fool).  I am still waiting for Xeno to demonstrate to me how an experiment carried out by respected scientists regarding residue of Zyclon B at Auschwitz is 'tripe'.

Do you think you will ever get around to this Xeno?  You see, removing data without due and fair  cause is not conducive to a productive and/or interesting forum.


----------



## Gunny

Sunni Man said:


> The topic of this thread Xenophon is "Why did the holocaust occur? "
> 
> Can we get back to the subject?
> 
> Thank You



Why?  Is there still someone left that hasn't destroyed your bullshit lies and propaganda?


----------



## Gunny

reality bites said:


> And this person is considered  a _responsible _person who is worthy of trust, or belief and has the _authority _to  'monitor' posters and remove other peoples posts only because he/she does not agree with the data written???
> 
> *Hmmmm....and who monitors the one who monitors one wonders.  *
> 
> When one has no argument, when one cannot debate the issues at hand, resort to casting personal aspersions (even though they do absolutely nothing bar disrupt, stifle freedom of speech, not to mention make them look a fool).  I am still waiting for Xeno to demonstrate to me how an experiment carried out by respected scientists regarding residue of Zyclon B at Auschwitz is 'tripe'.
> 
> Do you think you will ever get around to this Xeno?  You see, removing data without due and fair  cause is not conducive to a productive and/or interesting forum.



As a matter of fact, *I* do.  

If you have a problem with an action taken by a monitor proper recourse is to address it via either reporting the post or private message.  It will not be addressed in a public forum on this board.

Your last little paragraph is just some nicely worded bullshit.  One isn't required to have an argument against a non-argument.  You have NONE.  The facts speak for themselves.  Your denial doesn't make them go away.


----------



## Sunni Man

Gunny said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> 
> The topic of this thread Xenophon is "Why did the holocaust occur? "
> 
> Can we get back to the subject?
> 
> Thank You
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Why?  Is there still someone left that hasn't destroyed your bullshit lies and propaganda?
Click to expand...

So far no one has been able to refute anything that I have posted or said.


----------



## dilloduck

Sunni Man said:


> First of all, Dilloduck, I beleieve the number is closer to 2 or 3 hundred thousand jewish victims.
> 
> Secondly, there were no gas chambers for the extermination of people. The not air tight buildings were for lice and parisite removal.
> 
> Next, the ovens were way too small for cremating bodies. It would have been highly ineffecient, a tremendous waste of fuel, and a huge ash removal and logistical problem..
> 
> Question: why take the time to tattoo people with numbers if you are going to turn right around and kill them?
> 
> The Germans where known for being highly efficient. The holocaust story as told is a lesson in gross inefficiency



Are you claiming that the Nazis did not order any Jews to be killed simply because they were Jews ?


----------



## reality bites

Gunny said:


> reality bites said:
> 
> 
> 
> And this person is considered  a _responsible _person who is worthy of trust, or belief and has the _authority _to  'monitor' posters and remove other peoples posts only because he/she does not agree with the data written???
> 
> *Hmmmm....and who monitors the one who monitors one wonders.  *
> 
> When one has no argument, when one cannot debate the issues at hand, resort to casting personal aspersions (even though they do absolutely nothing bar disrupt, stifle freedom of speech, not to mention make them look a fool).  I am still waiting for Xeno to demonstrate to me how an experiment carried out by respected scientists regarding residue of Zyclon B at Auschwitz is 'tripe'.
> 
> Do you think you will ever get around to this Xeno?  You see, removing data without due and fair  cause is not conducive to a productive and/or interesting forum.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As a matter of fact, *I* do.
> 
> If you have a problem with an action taken by a monitor proper recourse is to address it via either reporting the post or private message.  It will not be addressed in a public forum on this board.
> 
> Your last little paragraph is just some nicely worded bullshit.  One isn't required to have an argument against a non-argument.  You have NONE.  The facts speak for themselves.  Your denial doesn't make them go away.
Click to expand...


Would you like to demonstrate to me that my argument regarding the residue of Zyclon B is a non argument?

The only non-argument is the one demonstrated by Xeno and also now it seems by you yourself.

I have offered Xeno and now offer you a link to documented data that supports the findings I posted, via an impeccable source, the findings were also accepted as accurate by the curator of the Austwitz museum at the time.  The video I referred to in my first post, produced by a Jewish gentleman has also documented the curator's response to such findings.   

Xeno chose to ignore this and instead felt that casting childish aspersions was more productive, that is a classical example of a non- argument I think you will find.


----------



## Sunni Man

dilloduck said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> 
> First of all, Dilloduck, I beleieve the number is closer to 2 or 3 hundred thousand jewish victims.
> 
> Secondly, there were no gas chambers for the extermination of people. The not air tight buildings were for lice and parisite removal.
> 
> Next, the ovens were way too small for cremating bodies. It would have been highly ineffecient, a tremendous waste of fuel, and a huge ash removal and logistical problem..
> 
> Question: why take the time to tattoo people with numbers if you are going to turn right around and kill them?
> 
> The Germans where known for being highly efficient. The holocaust story as told is a lesson in gross inefficiency
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Are you claiming that the Nazis did not order any Jews to be killed simply because they were Jews ?
Click to expand...

The Nazis hated the Jews.

Many jews were murdered, especially on the Russian front. (Many Russian jews were Communists and the Nazis hated communism)

And of course jews were killed in the camps for minor infractions.

I believe that most jews died in the camps from over work and disease. 

But towards the end of the war, starvation led to the death of many prisoners.


----------



## random3434

Echo Zulu said:


> Here is where these idiots get their info, even though the Supreme Court says it is full of lies:
> 
> 
> Did Six Million Really Die? - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> 
> Anybody can write anything, and the gullible will believe it, like Yukon,sunniboy and reality bite it seems.
> 
> 
> Maybe I'll write a book about the liars on the internet! I bet it would be a best seller!





> In a 1992 court case in front of the Supreme Court of Canada, the book was examined, and the court concluded that it "misrepresented the work of historians, misquoted witnesses, fabricated evidence, and cited non-existent authorities." From the court decision:
> 
> The appellant's allegations of fact in the pamphlet were divided into 85 extracts and rebutted one by one. The trial judge summarized this material at length for the jury but it will suffice here to point only to some of the more egregious examples. The pamphlet alleged that a memorandum from Joseph Goebbels revealed that the Final Solution was never more than a plan to evacuate Jews to Madagascar. It was shown that there was no such memorandum but that the reference was to Goebbels' diary entry of March 7, 1942. This diary extract was adduced and shown to state nothing of the kind. The Crown went on to point out that the entry for March 27, 1942 made clear that the Final Solution was, in fact, genocide: "Not much will remain of the Jews. On the whole, it can be said that about 60 per cent of them will have to be liquidated, whereas only about 40 per cent can be used for forced labor...."
> ..The pamphlet alleged, purportedly relying on a Red Cross report, that all concentration camps were really humane work camps. Mr. Biedermann, a delegate of the International Committee of the Red Cross, testified that the Red Cross Report pertained exclusively to prisoner of war camps as the Red Cross personnel had not been inside any camps in which civilians were detained. The Crown adduced evidence from Professor Hilberg that while some camps had labour facilities annexed to them, Belzec, Treblinka, Sobibor and Chelmno were exclusively "killing factories" and that gas chambers were in operation at Auschwitz-Birkenau and Majdanek. The numbers of Jews slaughtered was verifiable from railway records showing the payments per person made by the Gestapo for transport to the camps. These numbers were compared with those having left the camps or who were found there after liberation.
> On and on, the Crown showed that the appellant misrepresented the work of historians, misquoted witnesses, fabricated evidence, and cited non-existent authorities.[2]






*Why haven't the idiots commented on these FACTS? *


----------



## Sunni Man

Here are the real facts Echo Zulu

Auschwitz and the holocaust


----------



## reality bites

dilloduck said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> 
> First of all, Dilloduck, I beleieve the number is closer to 2 or 3 hundred thousand jewish victims.
> 
> Secondly, there were no gas chambers for the extermination of people. The not air tight buildings were for lice and parisite removal.
> 
> Next, the ovens were way too small for cremating bodies. It would have been highly ineffecient, a tremendous waste of fuel, and a huge ash removal and logistical problem..
> 
> Question: why take the time to tattoo people with numbers if you are going to turn right around and kill them?
> 
> The Germans where known for being highly efficient. The holocaust story as told is a lesson in gross inefficiency
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Are you claiming that the Nazis did not order any Jews to be killed simply because they were Jews ?
Click to expand...


Absolutely not I would imagine.

This is a classical example of the adverse effects of total censorship.

Many historians and ordinary members of the public at large are not Holocaust deniers, they just question aspects of the accepted Holocaust history.  Myself, the main bone of contention is the gassing within camps.  I have issues with the historical consensus regarding the gassing of such numbers and even whether any gassings took place, because of the sheer logistics involved.  When laid open to critical analysis, such  claims are not logical and definitely do not add up.

There is no disputing that Nazi's killed people just because they were Jewish, but they also killed many people of many nationalities because of their origin and also because they were who they were, including gypsies, blacks, gays and the disabled.

This does not mean it is proven that 2,4 even 6 million Jews were murdered and it does not prove they were systematically gassed.  The sheer numbers are disputed for many reasons, but historians are not allowed to investigate potential discrepancies, or lapses, no matter how respected the sources are.

If you question, you are demonised, it matters not.


----------



## dilloduck

Sunni Man said:


> dilloduck said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> 
> First of all, Dilloduck, I beleieve the number is closer to 2 or 3 hundred thousand jewish victims.
> 
> Secondly, there were no gas chambers for the extermination of people. The not air tight buildings were for lice and parisite removal.
> 
> Next, the ovens were way too small for cremating bodies. It would have been highly ineffecient, a tremendous waste of fuel, and a huge ash removal and logistical problem..
> 
> Question: why take the time to tattoo people with numbers if you are going to turn right around and kill them?
> 
> The Germans where known for being highly efficient. The holocaust story as told is a lesson in gross inefficiency
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Are you claiming that the Nazis did not order any Jews to be killed simply because they were Jews ?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The Nazis hated the Jews.
> 
> Many jews were murdered, especially on the Russian front. (Many Russian jews were Communists and the Nazis hated communism)
> 
> And of course jews were killed in the camps for minor infractions.
> 
> I believe that most jews died in the camps from over work and disease.
> 
> But towards the end of the war, starvation led to the death of many prisoners.
Click to expand...


Isn't that enough reason to condemn the Nazis  ? Didn't the Nazis at least minimally create the very situation that caused millions of Jews to die ?


----------



## reality bites

> Isn't that enough reason to condemn the Nazis ? Didn't the Nazis at least minimally create the very situation that caused millions of Jews to die ?



What makes you believe that people who question the validity of Holocaust history don't condemn the Nazi's??

This is the power of aspersions cast at every opportunity, by those who want nothing less than complete censorship.


----------



## Sunni Man

No sane person could condone the actions of the Nazis.

They were psychopathic murderers and committed many henious crimes.

People wrongly think that by questioning certain details of the holocaust. 

That you are somehow supporting or defending the nazis. 

This couldn't be further from the truth.


----------



## Red Dawn

Echo Zulu said:


> Echo Zulu said:
> 
> 
> 
> Here is where these idiots get their info, even though the Supreme Court says it is full of lies:
> 
> 
> Did Six Million Really Die? - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> 
> Anybody can write anything, and the gullible will believe it, like Yukon,sunniboy and reality bite it seems.
> 
> 
> Maybe I'll write a book about the liars on the internet! I bet it would be a best seller!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In a 1992 court case in front of the Supreme Court of Canada, the book was examined, and the court concluded that it "misrepresented the work of historians, misquoted witnesses, fabricated evidence, and cited non-existent authorities." From the court decision:
> 
> The appellant's allegations of fact in the pamphlet were divided into 85 extracts and rebutted one by one. The trial judge summarized this material at length for the jury but it will suffice here to point only to some of the more egregious examples. The pamphlet alleged that a memorandum from Joseph Goebbels revealed that the Final Solution was never more than a plan to evacuate Jews to Madagascar. It was shown that there was no such memorandum but that the reference was to Goebbels' diary entry of March 7, 1942. This diary extract was adduced and shown to state nothing of the kind. The Crown went on to point out that the entry for March 27, 1942 made clear that the Final Solution was, in fact, genocide: "Not much will remain of the Jews. On the whole, it can be said that about 60 per cent of them will have to be liquidated, whereas only about 40 per cent can be used for forced labor...."
> ..The pamphlet alleged, purportedly relying on a Red Cross report, that all concentration camps were really humane work camps. Mr. Biedermann, a delegate of the International Committee of the Red Cross, testified that the Red Cross Report pertained exclusively to prisoner of war camps as the Red Cross personnel had not been inside any camps in which civilians were detained. The Crown adduced evidence from Professor Hilberg that while some camps had labour facilities annexed to them, Belzec, Treblinka, Sobibor and Chelmno were exclusively "killing factories" and that gas chambers were in operation at Auschwitz-Birkenau and Majdanek. The numbers of Jews slaughtered was verifiable from railway records showing the payments per person made by the Gestapo for transport to the camps. These numbers were compared with those having left the camps or who were found there after liberation.
> On and on, the Crown showed that the appellant misrepresented the work of historians, misquoted witnesses, fabricated evidence, and cited non-existent authorities.[2]
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Why haven't the idiots commented on these FACTS? *
Click to expand...


----------



## dilloduck

reality bites said:


> Isn't that enough reason to condemn the Nazis ? Didn't the Nazis at least minimally create the very situation that caused millions of Jews to die ?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What makes you believe that people who question the validity of Holocaust history don't condemn the Nazi's??
> 
> This is the power of aspersions cast at every opportunity, by those who want nothing less than complete censorship.
Click to expand...


Again--What specifically is it that you are claiming is invalid ? I'm in agreement with you on the fact that ANY question that challenges somehow magically common version of what happened to the Jews in WWII is met with zealous condemnation. Is that what you have a problem with ?


----------



## random3434

Red Dawn said:


> Echo Zulu said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Echo Zulu said:
> 
> 
> 
> Here is where these idiots get their info, even though the Supreme Court says it is full of lies:
> 
> 
> Did Six Million Really Die? - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> 
> Anybody can write anything, and the gullible will believe it, like Yukon,sunniboy and reality bite it seems.
> 
> 
> Maybe I'll write a book about the liars on the internet! I bet it would be a best seller!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In a 1992 court case in front of the Supreme Court of Canada, the book was examined, and the court concluded that it "misrepresented the work of historians, misquoted witnesses, fabricated evidence, and cited non-existent authorities." From the court decision:
> 
> The appellant's allegations of fact in the pamphlet were divided into 85 extracts and rebutted one by one. The trial judge summarized this material at length for the jury but it will suffice here to point only to some of the more egregious examples. The pamphlet alleged that a memorandum from Joseph Goebbels revealed that the Final Solution was never more than a plan to evacuate Jews to Madagascar. It was shown that there was no such memorandum but that the reference was to Goebbels' diary entry of March 7, 1942. This diary extract was adduced and shown to state nothing of the kind. The Crown went on to point out that the entry for March 27, 1942 made clear that the Final Solution was, in fact, genocide: "Not much will remain of the Jews. On the whole, it can be said that about 60 per cent of them will have to be liquidated, whereas only about 40 per cent can be used for forced labor...."
> ..The pamphlet alleged, purportedly relying on a Red Cross report, that all concentration camps were really humane work camps. Mr. Biedermann, a delegate of the International Committee of the Red Cross, testified that the Red Cross Report pertained exclusively to prisoner of war camps as the Red Cross personnel had not been inside any camps in which civilians were detained. The Crown adduced evidence from Professor Hilberg that while some camps had labour facilities annexed to them, Belzec, Treblinka, Sobibor and Chelmno were exclusively "killing factories" and that gas chambers were in operation at Auschwitz-Birkenau and Majdanek. The numbers of Jews slaughtered was verifiable from railway records showing the payments per person made by the Gestapo for transport to the camps. These numbers were compared with those having left the camps or who were found there after liberation.
> On and on, the Crown showed that the appellant misrepresented the work of historians, misquoted witnesses, fabricated evidence, and cited non-existent authorities.[2]
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Why haven't the idiots commented on these FACTS? *
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


Thanks for the applause! 

Still waiting for someone to comment about what the SUPREME COURT RULED! 

{or the lies people like to tell..................}


----------



## Red Dawn

Sunni Man said:


> If you are talking about the so called Holocaust of the Jews, then the answer is simple.
> 
> During WWI the Jewish bankers had *sold out Germany* causing the humiliation and defeat of Germany.
> 
> The average German citizen knew this and hated the Jews for it.
> 
> When Hitler came along and voiced what everyone knew but were afraid to say.
> 
> He became wildly popular and was able to round up the traitorous Jews and put them in camps.
> 
> The average German supported the cleansing of society from Jewish decadence and immorality.




I know you're trolling but this doesn't fucking make sense. 

if the grievance was against GERMAN jews who supposedly screwed over their nation WW1, then why was hitler hell bent on killing polish, russian and dutch jews?

*What the fuck did dutch and polish jews have to do with being "traitors" to  germany, a nation they didn't even live in?*


----------



## Sunni Man

Echo Zulu said:


> Red Dawn said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Echo Zulu said:
> 
> 
> 
> *Why haven't the idiots commented on these FACTS? *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Thanks for the applause!
> 
> Still waiting for someone to comment about what the SUPREME COURT RULED!
> 
> {or the lies people like to tell..................}
Click to expand...

A court in a country where holocaust denial is a criminal offence.

Doesn't sound like a place that an objective or fair verdict could be handed down.


----------



## Sunni Man

Red Dawn said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> 
> If you are talking about the so called Holocaust of the Jews, then the answer is simple.
> 
> During WWI the Jewish bankers had *sold out Germany* causing the humiliation and defeat of Germany.
> 
> The average German citizen knew this and hated the Jews for it.
> 
> When Hitler came along and voiced what everyone knew but were afraid to say.
> 
> He became wildly popular and was able to round up the traitorous Jews and put them in camps.
> 
> The average German supported the cleansing of society from Jewish decadence and immorality.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I know you're trolling but this doesn't fucking make sense.
> 
> if the grievance was against GERMAN jews who supposedly screwed over their nation WW1, then why was hitler hell bent on killing polish, russian and dutch jews?
> 
> *What the fuck did dutch and polish jews have to do with being "traitors" to  germany, a nation they didn't even live in?*
Click to expand...

Two reasons

1) The Nazis didn't trust any jews and didn't want any in their newly accuired territories.

2) The Nazis hated Communism. 

The Russian Revolution was led mainly by Communist Jews, and most Jews in Russia supported the communist government. That's one reason that so many Jews were killed on the spot on the Russian front.


----------



## random3434

Sunni Man said:


> Red Dawn said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> 
> If you are talking about the so called Holocaust of the Jews, then the answer is simple.
> 
> During WWI the Jewish bankers had *sold out Germany* causing the humiliation and defeat of Germany.
> 
> The average German citizen knew this and hated the Jews for it.
> 
> When Hitler came along and voiced what everyone knew but were afraid to say.
> 
> He became wildly popular and was able to round up the traitorous Jews and put them in camps.
> 
> The average German supported the cleansing of society from Jewish decadence and immorality.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I know you're trolling but this doesn't fucking make sense.
> 
> if the grievance was against GERMAN jews who supposedly screwed over their nation WW1, then why was hitler hell bent on killing polish, russian and dutch jews?
> 
> *What the fuck did dutch and polish jews have to do with being "traitors" to  germany, a nation they didn't even live in?*
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Two reasons
> 
> 1) The Nazis didn't trust any jews and didn't want any in their newly accuired territories.
> 
> 2) The Nazis hated Communism.
> 
> The Russian Revolution was led mainly by Communist Jews, and most Jews in Russia supported the communist government. That's one reason that so many Jews were killed on the spot on the Russian front.
Click to expand...


So sunni, why did they kill the gays and the gypsies? They had nothing to do with power and banking.


----------



## Sunni Man

Echo Zulu said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Red Dawn said:
> 
> 
> 
> I know you're trolling but this doesn't fucking make sense.
> 
> if the grievance was against GERMAN jews who supposedly screwed over their nation WW1, then why was hitler hell bent on killing polish, russian and dutch jews?
> 
> *What the fuck did dutch and polish jews have to do with being "traitors" to  germany, a nation they didn't even live in?*
> 
> 
> 
> Two reasons
> 
> 1) The Nazis didn't trust any jews and didn't want any in their newly accuired territories.
> 
> 2) The Nazis hated Communism.
> 
> The Russian Revolution was led mainly by Communist Jews, and most Jews in Russia supported the communist government. That's one reason that so many Jews were killed on the spot on the Russian front.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> So sunni, why did they kill the gays and the gypsies? They had nothing to do with power and banking.
Click to expand...

Echo Zulu I am not here to defend or support the actions of the Nazis.

I am just here to debate the veracity of certain details of the so called holocaust.


----------



## manu1959

Sunni Man said:


> Echo Zulu said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> 
> Two reasons
> 
> 1) The Nazis didn't trust any jews and didn't want any in their newly accuired territories.
> 
> 2) The Nazis hated Communism.
> 
> The Russian Revolution was led mainly by Communist Jews, and most Jews in Russia supported the communist government. That's one reason that so many Jews were killed on the spot on the Russian front.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So sunni, why did they kill the gays and the gypsies? They had nothing to do with power and banking.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Echo Zulu I am not here to defend or support the actions of the Nazis.
> 
> I am just here to debate the veracity of certain details of the so called holocaust.
Click to expand...


did anyone die in the "spas" the germans set up for the jews, gypsies, gays and the rest..


----------



## random3434

Sunni Man said:


> Echo Zulu said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> 
> Two reasons
> 
> 1) The Nazis didn't trust any jews and didn't want any in their newly accuired territories.
> 
> 2) The Nazis hated Communism.
> 
> The Russian Revolution was led mainly by Communist Jews, and most Jews in Russia supported the communist government. That's one reason that so many Jews were killed on the spot on the Russian front.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So sunni, why did they kill the gays and the gypsies? They had nothing to do with power and banking.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Echo Zulu I am not here to defend or support the actions of the Nazis.
> 
> I am just here to debate the veracity of certain details of the so called holocaust.
Click to expand...


But isn't this thread titled "Why did the Holocaust Occur?" Part of that was the murder of gays and gypsies too, yet you don't want to address that issue. You can't find any propaganda for it, so you ignore it.


----------



## manu1959

Sunni Man said:


> .
> 
> The Russian Revolution was led mainly by Communist Jews, and most Jews in Russia supported the communist government. That's one reason that so many Jews were killed on the spot on the Russian front.



too funny.....communist jews were in charge of the russian revolution......i have heard everything now....


----------



## manu1959

Echo Zulu said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Echo Zulu said:
> 
> 
> 
> So sunni, why did they kill the gays and the gypsies? They had nothing to do with power and banking.
> 
> 
> 
> Echo Zulu I am not here to defend or support the actions of the Nazis.
> 
> I am just here to debate the veracity of certain details of the so called holocaust.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> But isn't this thread titled "Why did the Holocaust Occur?" Part of that was the murder of gays and gypsies too, yet you don't want to address that issue. You can't find any propaganda for it, so you ignore it.
Click to expand...


what is better is he starts a thread......why did the holocaust occur....which is admiting it occured in itself....then spends the bulk of his time saying ... "so called holocaust....."


----------



## Sunni Man

manu1959 said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> 
> .
> 
> The Russian Revolution was led mainly by Communist Jews, and most Jews in Russia supported the communist government. That's one reason that so many Jews were killed on the spot on the Russian front.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> too funny.....communist jews were in charge of the russian revolution......i have heard everything now....
Click to expand...

Apparently, you know very little history.

Just google the founders of communism or the leaders of the russian revolution, and tell me the number of jews in leadership positions.


----------



## ABikerSailor

Hey Sunnidiot.......what are you doing, trying to channel intelligence from your avatar of Einstein?

It ain't working dude........


----------



## ABikerSailor

Hey Sunnidiot.......what are you doing, trying to channel intelligence from your avatar of Einstein?

It ain't working dude........


----------



## Red Dawn

Echo Zulu said:


> Xenophon said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> reality bites said:
> 
> 
> 
> What are you afraid of here?
> 
> 
> 
> That people not smart enough to realize what a phoney you are might take you seriously.
> 
> That is always a danger.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> reality bite seems like another one of those posters who thinks if he uses big words his message seems more valid. It's just another sock puppet tactic, like his other buddies here.
Click to expand...



bingo!


----------



## Sunni Man

manu1959 said:


> Echo Zulu said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> 
> Echo Zulu I am not here to defend or support the actions of the Nazis.
> 
> I am just here to debate the veracity of certain details of the so called holocaust.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But isn't this thread titled "Why did the Holocaust Occur?" Part of that was the murder of gays and gypsies too, yet you don't want to address that issue. You can't find any propaganda for it, so you ignore it.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> what is better is he starts a thread......why did the holocaust occur....which is admiting it occured in itself....then spends the bulk of his time saying ... "so called holocaust....."
Click to expand...

As usual, you are wrong Manu1959

A self proclaimed zionist jew named DavidS started this thread.


----------



## reality bites

Red Dawn said:


> Echo Zulu said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Echo Zulu said:
> 
> 
> 
> Here is where these idiots get their info, even though the Supreme Court says it is full of lies:
> 
> 
> Did Six Million Really Die? - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> 
> Anybody can write anything, and the gullible will believe it, like Yukon,sunniboy and reality bite it seems.
> 
> 
> Maybe I'll write a book about the liars on the internet! I bet it would be a best seller!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In a 1992 court case in front of the Supreme Court of Canada, the book was examined, and the court concluded that it "misrepresented the work of historians, misquoted witnesses, fabricated evidence, and cited non-existent authorities." From the court decision:
> 
> The appellant's allegations of fact in the pamphlet were divided into 85 extracts and rebutted one by one. The trial judge summarized this material at length for the jury but it will suffice here to point only to some of the more egregious examples. The pamphlet alleged that a memorandum from Joseph Goebbels revealed that the Final Solution was never more than a plan to evacuate Jews to Madagascar. It was shown that there was no such memorandum but that the reference was to Goebbels' diary entry of March 7, 1942. This diary extract was adduced and shown to state nothing of the kind. The Crown went on to point out that the entry for March 27, 1942 made clear that the Final Solution was, in fact, genocide: "Not much will remain of the Jews. On the whole, it can be said that about 60 per cent of them will have to be liquidated, whereas only about 40 per cent can be used for forced labor...."
> ..The pamphlet alleged, purportedly relying on a Red Cross report, that all concentration camps were really humane work camps. Mr. Biedermann, a delegate of the International Committee of the Red Cross, testified that the Red Cross Report pertained exclusively to prisoner of war camps as the Red Cross personnel had not been inside any camps in which civilians were detained. The Crown adduced evidence from Professor Hilberg that while some camps had labour facilities annexed to them, Belzec, Treblinka, Sobibor and Chelmno were exclusively "killing factories" and that gas chambers were in operation at Auschwitz-Birkenau and Majdanek. The numbers of Jews slaughtered was verifiable from railway records showing the payments per person made by the Gestapo for transport to the camps. These numbers were compared with those having left the camps or who were found there after liberation.
> On and on, the Crown showed that the appellant misrepresented the work of historians, misquoted witnesses, fabricated evidence, and cited non-existent authorities.[2]
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Why haven't the idiots commented on these FACTS? *
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Right lets deal with this now.
> 
> The supreme court case you refer to deals with one book by one revisionist.   The evidence used as a rebuttal was supplied by Raul Hilberg a Jewish Historian.
> 
> Although well informed and fairer than most other Jewish Historians, the evidence collated regarding the use of Gas Chambers in concentration camps is still based only on witness testimony and put into print by Hilberg.
> 
> This still does not prove that Gas Chambers were built and used to gas millions of Jews.
> 
> The section you highlighted, regarding train tickets paid for by Jews before deportation, now records may indeed have been documented, but why is this data not within the public domain?
> 
> Even if there are records of millions of Jews being deported, this still does not prove they were all gassed, far from it.
> 
> What you also failed to point out is, that the discrepancies within the revisionists book, which were dealt with by the supreme court did not base their verdict on overwhelming proof that 6 million were gassed, only on  the following testimony provided by Hilberg;
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _Who had stated that some camps were exclusively "killing factories" and that gas chambers were in operation at Auschwitz-Birkenau and Majdanek._
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> This evidence is still based on witness testimony, it by no means proves that the inmates were gassed, there is no documentation that states this.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _The numbers of Jews slaughtered was verifiable from railway records showing the payments per person made by the Gestapo for transport to the camps. These numbers were compared with those having left the camps or who were found there after liberation._
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Although shocking that so many people _may _have died, if the records do actually exist, again it by no means proves that these people were gassed.
> 
> A problematic aspect is, that we, the public and certainly not historians outside of the conventional loop have any access to these records.
> 
> Why are these records not put into the public domain?  What purpose does keeping them archived serve?
> 
> Another important point is, that although Hilberg is a respected and renowned  Historian, one should not forget that it is in the end still the opinion of one man and that much of his research was based on what is historically witness testimony.
> 
> Finally, you failed to mention that the Supreme Court of Canada acquitted Zundel, and upheld his right to freedom of speech, free speech is a precious commodity, a lesson some within this thread would do well to learn.
Click to expand...


----------



## Old Rocks

dilloduck said:


> DavidS said:
> 
> 
> 
> I don't believe there is any question that is so simple yet that requires such a complex answer.
> 
> On another message board more relating to photography, a photographer had unveiled a new, quite excellent body of work that exhibited portraits of holocaust survivors. One critic had this to say about the subject matter:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> To be perfectly frank I see no point in adding yet another body of work -even a work as masterful as this clearly is -to the subject of the Holocaust that is devoid of any serious analysis of the question of _why._ A million volumes have already been written and they all with few exceptions primarily function to shroud the episode in mystery, rendering the subject broadly incomprehensible and in so doing, serving to intellectually disarm any meaningful resistance to its future resuscitation.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The discussion of politics is not allowed on that forum, so I thought I would turn the discussion over to here, where there are quite a few intelligent people on this forum.
> 
> So, why do YOU think the holocaust happened? Give whatever realist or phillisophical belief you might have on why it occurred.
> 
> Also, I know there are deniers out there who believe the holocaust never happened and we've got your story down - thank you. I also know there are one or two neo-nazis/skinheads/racists on this forum, again thank you, we know you hate Jews. This discussion is not for you and I would thank you if you kept out of it.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I don't give a shit and am tired of constantly hearing about.
Click to expand...


Now that is one reason that it was allowed to happen.


----------



## Old Rocks

Sunni Man said:


> If you are talking about the so called Holocaust of the Jews, then the answer is simple.
> 
> During WWI the Jewish bankers had sold out Germany causing the humiliation and defeat of Germany.
> 
> The average German citizen knew this and hated the Jews for it.
> 
> When Hitler came along and voiced what everyone knew but were afraid to say.
> 
> He became wildly popular and was able to round up the traitorous Jews and put them in camps.
> 
> The average German supported the cleansing of society from Jewish decadence and immorality.



Another reason heard from.


----------



## Xenophon

reality bites said:


> Gunny said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> reality bites said:
> 
> 
> 
> And this person is considered  a _responsible _person who is worthy of trust, or belief and has the _authority _to  'monitor' posters and remove other peoples posts only because he/she does not agree with the data written???
> 
> *Hmmmm....and who monitors the one who monitors one wonders.  *
> 
> When one has no argument, when one cannot debate the issues at hand, resort to casting personal aspersions (even though they do absolutely nothing bar disrupt, stifle freedom of speech, not to mention make them look a fool).  I am still waiting for Xeno to demonstrate to me how an experiment carried out by respected scientists regarding residue of Zyclon B at Auschwitz is 'tripe'.
> 
> Do you think you will ever get around to this Xeno?  You see, removing data without due and fair  cause is not conducive to a productive and/or interesting forum.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As a matter of fact, *I* do.
> 
> If you have a problem with an action taken by a monitor proper recourse is to address it via either reporting the post or private message.  It will not be addressed in a public forum on this board.
> 
> Your last little paragraph is just some nicely worded bullshit.  One isn't required to have an argument against a non-argument.  You have NONE.  The facts speak for themselves.  Your denial doesn't make them go away.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Would you like to demonstrate to me that my argument regarding the residue of Zyclon B is a non argument?
> 
> The only non-argument is the one demonstrated by Xeno and also now it seems by you yourself.
> 
> I have offered Xeno and now offer you a link to documented data that supports the findings I posted, via an impeccable source, the findings were also accepted as accurate by the curator of the Austwitz museum at the time.  The video I referred to in my first post, produced by a Jewish gentleman has also documented the curator's response to such findings.
> 
> Xeno chose to ignore this and instead felt that casting childish aspersions was more productive, that is a classical example of a non- argument I think you will find.
Click to expand...

THREE TIMES I posted the same link with completely refutes the nonsense about Zyklon B not being used to kill Jews.

Either you are too stupid to read links or just terminaly obtuse remains to be seen.


----------



## Yukon

"THREE TIMES I posted the same link with completely refutes the nonsense about Zyklon B not being used to kill Jews."

The Jewish people died in work camps that were owned by Gemans, the camps were managed by Jews.


----------



## del

Yukon said:


> "THREE TIMES I posted the same link with completely refutes the nonsense about Zyklon B not being used to kill Jews."
> 
> The Jewish people died in work camps that were owned by Gemans, the camps were managed by Jews.



ZOG


----------



## roomy

reality bites said:


> roomy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> reality bites said:
> 
> 
> 
> Then why are professional historians and any others who question the accepted historical consensus open to penal and/or moral retribution with which to shut them up?
> 
> As I already stated; What are people afraid of exactly?  Bully tactics will never stop people from asking genuine questions, regarding any subject matter, regardless.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Because 'THE WHOLE WIDE FUCKING WORLD' has accepted as'FACT' that the holocaust happened, therefore those that 'DENY' it are puposefully publishing/orating antisemitic/racist  bullshit which happens to be 'AGAINST THE FUCKING LAW'.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> That is not a logical, or valid answer.  You are also incorrect, the whole world has not accepted every aspect of the Holocaust as fact.  As I stated earlier, bully tactics will not shut those people with genuine questions up, regardless.
> 
> By the way Roomy, for your information, using a large font has absolutely no effect on logic and reason.
> 
> The fact _still _remains that all aspects of history, no matter how emotional people may feel about said aspects,are freely open and always have been, to debate and historical investigation.
> 
> There is absolutely no valid reason why the historical consensus regarding the Holocaust should not be the same, no matter how loud, much, or often people who want to stifle free speech, or exert control shout.
Click to expand...


Do me a fucking favour you 'FUCKING' lunatic, It has been said and put to bed, now shut the fuck up, bigger brains than yours have pondered and agreed.


----------



## Sunni Man

It's an inconvenient fact to the holocaust story.

But most of the inmates at Dachau and Buchenwald, about eighty percent, were non-Jews

Spielberg and the Eleven Million


----------



## roomy

Yukon said:


> roomy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Even raging anti semites 'Know' that it 'really' happened.Idiots can be forgiven and or ignored, antisemites need to be shut up.
> 
> William the who?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> My child, you are so pathetic. Your name calling is to be expected. We free people believe and know that it is our God given right to challenge unproven theories. Did 6 million die ? I say it can't be proven. I say that there weren't 6 million Jewish people in Europe prior to 1939. This entire event is a myth. A myth that was created by Hollywood. You, my child, myths - Santa Clause, Easter Bunny, Tooth Fairy, Parting of the Red Sea, The Resurrection, etc. etc.
Click to expand...



I don't believe in any God you thick ****, I believe in ***** like you that murder people then say it never happened.Fuk you, you thick ****.


----------



## roomy

reality bites said:


> Revisionism and tripe removed
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Would you like to demonstrate to myself and the other posters here that the data I posted was tripe?
> 
> Your actions are a classic example of everything I have stated, regarding inappropriate and unjust mechanisms.  Show me and the others how experiments carried out by independent respected scientists can be construed as 'tripe', then you can remove the writings of others with just cause.
> 
> At the moment you are displaying the actions of one who weants to stifle free speech.  Just because you may not agree with my writings, does not mean they are lacking in validity.
> 
> You have also no idea what my motives are here.
Click to expand...


Look in the mirror, if you look like a **** and talk like a **** you are invariably a ****.Proof positive.


----------



## reality bites

roomy said:


> reality bites said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Revisionism and tripe removed
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Would you like to demonstrate to myself and the other posters here that the data I posted was tripe?
> 
> Your actions are a classic example of everything I have stated, regarding inappropriate and unjust mechanisms.  Show me and the others how experiments carried out by independent respected scientists can be construed as 'tripe', then you can remove the writings of others with just cause.
> 
> At the moment you are displaying the actions of one who weants to stifle free speech.  Just because you may not agree with my writings, does not mean they are lacking in validity.
> 
> You have also no idea what my motives are here.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Look in the mirror, if you look like a **** and talk like a **** you are invariably a ****.Proof positive.
Click to expand...


I agree with you, see above


----------



## roomy

reality bites said:


> roomy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> reality bites said:
> 
> 
> 
> Would you like to demonstrate to myself and the other posters here that the data I posted was tripe?
> 
> Your actions are a classic example of everything I have stated, regarding inappropriate and unjust mechanisms.  Show me and the others how experiments carried out by independent respected scientists can be construed as 'tripe', then you can remove the writings of others with just cause.
> 
> At the moment you are displaying the actions of one who weants to stifle free speech.  Just because you may not agree with my writings, does not mean they are lacking in validity.
> 
> You have also no idea what my motives are here.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Look in the mirror, if you look like a **** and talk like a **** you are invariably a ****.Proof positive.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I agree with you, see above
Click to expand...



Fuck you , you thick ****.


----------



## DiveCon

Sunni Man said:


> Gunny said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> 
> The topic of this thread Xenophon is "Why did the holocaust occur? "
> 
> Can we get back to the subject?
> 
> Thank You
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Why?  Is there still someone left that hasn't destroyed your bullshit lies and propaganda?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> So far no one has been able to refute anything that I have posted or said.
Click to expand...

****cough****

BULLSHIT
everything you have posted has been refuted


----------



## jillian

reality bites said:


> You have also no idea what my motives are here.



when people feel the need to try to falsify history, they are either stupid or hate-filled.

which are you?

btw, the Germans kept great records, unfortunately for you. And it was 11 million people who were murdered. six million happened to be europe's jews.


----------



## DiveCon

Sunni Man said:


> Echo Zulu said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Red Dawn said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks for the applause!
> 
> Still waiting for someone to comment about what the SUPREME COURT RULED!
> 
> {or the lies people like to tell..................}
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> A court in a country where holocaust denial is a criminal offence.
> 
> Doesn't sound like a place that an objective or fair verdict could be handed down.
Click to expand...

more lies 

holocaust denial isnt a crime in the USA


----------



## Yukon

6 million rights do not equal 5 million wrongs !


----------



## jillian

cool... another cowardly loser.


----------



## reality bites

jillian said:


> reality bites said:
> 
> 
> 
> You have also no idea what my motives are here.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> when people feel the need to revise history, they are either stupid or hate-filled.
> 
> which are you?
> 
> btw, the Germans kept great records, unfortunately for you. And it was 11 million people who were murdered. six million happened to be europe's jews.
Click to expand...


Yes they did, we have already ascertained this.  There is no dispute there.....I have been referring entirely to Gas Chambers.......or do you now say eleven million were gassed?

I see, so every single historian throughout our history must have been, or is hate filled, or stupid, according to your doctrine....or Jillian does this only apply to those historians who revise the Holocaust?  Hmmmmm....stupidity...is thrown about here willy nilly, by those in no valid position to do so.


----------



## del

reality bites said:


> jillian said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> reality bites said:
> 
> 
> 
> You have also no idea what my motives are here.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> when people feel the need to revise history, they are either stupid or hate-filled.
> 
> which are you?
> 
> btw, the Germans kept great records, unfortunately for you. And it was 11 million people who were murdered. six million happened to be europe's jews.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yes they did, we have already ascertained this.  There is no dispute there.....I have been referring entirely to Gas Chambers.......or do you now say eleven million were gassed?
> 
> I see, so every single historian throughout our history must have been, or is hate filled, or stupid, according to your doctrine....or Jillian does this only apply to those historians who revise the Holocaust?  Hmmmmm....stupidity...is thrown about here willy nilly, by those in no valid position to do so.
Click to expand...


why don't you stop, then?


----------



## reality bites

del said:


> reality bites said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> jillian said:
> 
> 
> 
> when people feel the need to revise history, they are either stupid or hate-filled.
> 
> which are you?
> 
> btw, the Germans kept great records, unfortunately for you. And it was 11 million people who were murdered. six million happened to be europe's jews.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes they did, we have already ascertained this.  There is no dispute there.....I have been referring entirely to Gas Chambers.......or do you now say eleven million were gassed?
> 
> I see, so every single historian throughout our history must have been, or is hate filled, or stupid, according to your doctrine....or Jillian does this only apply to those historians who revise the Holocaust?  Hmmmmm....stupidity...is thrown about here willy nilly, by those in no valid position to do so.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> why don't you stop, then?
Click to expand...


Ah... but you see...this works both ways....only stupid people cannot see this.  The difference being.....I post information in an informed and  rational manner, but some here have no interest in genuinely debating or refuting data...they just enjoy using expletives and/or insults.   Now which route is stupid?


----------



## del

reality bites said:


> del said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> reality bites said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yes they did, we have already ascertained this.  There is no dispute there.....I have been referring entirely to Gas Chambers.......or do you now say eleven million were gassed?
> 
> I see, so every single historian throughout our history must have been, or is hate filled, or stupid, according to your doctrine....or Jillian does this only apply to those historians who revise the Holocaust?  Hmmmmm....stupidity...is thrown about here willy nilly, by those in no valid position to do so.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> why don't you stop, then?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Ah... but you see...this works both ways....only stupid people cannot see this.  The difference being.....I post information in an informed and  rational manner, but some here have no interest in genuinely debating or refuting data...they just enjoy using expletives and/or insults.   Now which route is stupid?
Click to expand...


yes.


----------



## ABikerSailor

Reality......bite me.


----------



## DiveCon

reality bites said:


> del said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> reality bites said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yes they did, we have already ascertained this.  There is no dispute there.....I have been referring entirely to Gas Chambers.......or do you now say eleven million were gassed?
> 
> I see, so every single historian throughout our history must have been, or is hate filled, or stupid, according to your doctrine....or Jillian does this only apply to those historians who revise the Holocaust?  Hmmmmm....stupidity...is thrown about here willy nilly, by those in no valid position to do so.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> why don't you stop, then?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Ah... but you see...this works both ways....only stupid people cannot see this.  The difference being.....I post information in an informed and  rational manner, but some here have no interest in genuinely debating or refuting data...they just enjoy using expletives and/or insults.   Now which route is stupid?
Click to expand...

you must underestand that not ALL the people killed by the Nazis were killed in gas chambers
they didnt start using the chemicals till later in the war
in some cases they "gassed" people with exhaust fumes
carbon monoxide poisoning


----------



## DiveCon

ABikerSailor said:


> Reality......bite me.


i think he chose an appropriate name, reality sure does bite him


----------



## Xenophon

reality bites said:


> Idiot drivel delted.


As I knew from the start, there is no talking to nazi excuse makers like you.


----------



## Xenophon

Sunni Man said:


> It's an inconvenient fact to the holocaust story.
> 
> But most of the inmates at Dachau and Buchenwald, about eighty percent, were non-Jews
> 
> Spielberg and the Eleven Million


What is 'inconvenient is how badly you don't understand the topic.

Dachau and Buchenwald were concentration camps for political prisoners, gays and so on.

Aushwitz was one of 6 extermination camps for jews.

If you understood the topic at all you would understand that the two types of camps were not the same nor were they intended to be the same.


----------



## Xenophon

And once again, just to prove what an idiot reality bites is, we have this:

*The "final solution" of the Jewish question meant the complete extermination of all Jews in Europe. l was ordered to establish extermination facilities at Auschwitz in June 1941. At that time there were already in the general govemment three other extermination camps; BELZEK, TREBLINKA and WOLZEK. These camps were under the Einsatzkommando of the Security Police and SD. I visited Treblinka to find out how they carried out their exterminations. The Camp Commandant at Treblinka told me that he had liquidated 80,000 in the course of one*half year. He was principally concerned with liquidating all the Jews from the Warsaw Ghetto. He used monoxide gas and I did not think that his methods were very efficient. So when I set up the extermination building at Auschwitz, l used Cyclon B, which was a crystallized Prussic Acid which we dropped into the death chamber from a small opening. It took from 3 to 15 minutes to kill the people in the death chamber depending upon climatic conditions. We knew when the people were dead because their screaming stopped. We usually waited about one*half hour before we opened the doors and removed the bodies. After the bodies were removed our special commandos took off the rings and extracted the gold from the teeth of the corpses. *

Rudolf Hoess, Commandant of Auschwitz Testimony at Nuremburg, 1946


----------



## Xenophon

an Ass said:


> So only Jews count in the holocaust myth?



*Dance for me, my puppet, deny all!

Tell them it was lies, your furer loves you!*


----------



## Sunni Man

Xenophon said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> 
> It's an inconvenient fact to the holocaust story.
> 
> But most of the inmates at Dachau and Buchenwald, about eighty percent, were non-Jews
> 
> Spielberg and the Eleven Million
> 
> 
> 
> What is 'inconvenient is how badly you don't understand the topic.
> 
> Dachau and Buchenwald were concentration camps for political prisoners, gays and so on.
> 
> Aushwitz was one of 6 extermination camps for jews.
> 
> If you understood the topic at all you would understand that the two types of camps were not the same nor were they intended to be the same.
Click to expand...

So only Jews count in the holocaust myth?

That's a typical zionist attitude. Gentiles don't count.


----------



## Xenophon

Sunni Man said:


> So only Jews count in the holocaust myth?
> 
> That's a typical zionist attitude. Gentiles don't count.



*Yes, yes my puppet!

Your furer is pleased!

To better educate you, I have returned to this world to instruct you, nobody must know about it!*


----------



## DiveCon

Sunni Man said:


> Xenophon said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> 
> It's an inconvenient fact to the holocaust story.
> 
> But most of the inmates at Dachau and Buchenwald, about eighty percent, were non-Jews
> 
> Spielberg and the Eleven Million
> 
> 
> 
> What is 'inconvenient is how badly you don't understand the topic.
> 
> Dachau and Buchenwald were concentration camps for political prisoners, gays and so on.
> 
> Aushwitz was one of 6 extermination camps for jews.
> 
> If you understood the topic at all you would understand that the two types of camps were not the same nor were they intended to be the same.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> So only Jews count in the holocaust myth?
> 
> That's a typical zionist attitude. Gentiles don't count.
Click to expand...

keep showing everyone what a moronic antisemite you are


----------



## Diuretic

All that_ contemporary_ evidence drives the denialists mad.  They resort to the tactic of sliding along on semi-plausible arguments.  Sometimes I think they're worse than the nutters who deny it happened at all.


----------



## editec

Gunny said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> 
> The topic of this thread Xenophon is "Why did the holocaust occur? "
> 
> Can we get back to the subject?
> 
> Thank You
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Why? Is there still someone left that hasn't destroyed your bullshit lies and propaganda?
Click to expand...

 





*Holocaust Deniers -- Dead Ideas Walking*​ 
_Just when you thought it was safe to eat a bagel_​


----------



## Yukon

The hollocaust is indedd a myth. A myth perpetuated by the Zionsist of Hollywood . They never stop. In fact this year's Best Actress Award went to a woman who starred in a movie about the Jews being exterminated during WWII. The lie goes on, and on, and on, and on, and on.........


----------



## KittenKoder

Yukon said:


> The hollocaust is indedd a myth. A myth perpetuated by the Zionsist of Hollywood . They never stop. In fact this year's Best Actress Award went to a woman who starred in a movie about the Jews being exterminated during WWII. The lie goes on, and on, and on, and on, and on.........



I think you have the German holocaust confused with the passions movie.


----------



## Sunni Man

I just don't understand why the holocaust can't be rationally discussed and examined by the facts?

Some people get so emotional about this subject and try their best to derail or destroy any thread concerning the so called holocaust.

If your pro-holocaust evidence is so strong. You should easily be able to win holocaust deniers over to you side and not have to resort to slander and intimidation tactics.


----------



## KittenKoder

Sunni Man said:


> I just don't understand why the holocaust can't be rationally discussed and examined by the facts?
> 
> Some people get so emotional about this subject and try their best to derail or destroy any thread concerning the so called holocaust.
> 
> If your pro-holocaust evidence is so strong. You should easily be able to win holocaust deniers over to you side and not have to resort to slander and intimidation tactics.



Hmm ... that's rather lame. We don't have to prove anything you have ever posted wrong, it usually does a good job on its own. As for evidence to support it? My own family is all I needed, but there are hundreds more who survived it (many not even Jewish by blood) who say it happened. Why do you insist on slandering them?


----------



## Sunni Man

Sorry to hear about your family members KK
.
I am in No way trying to slander them or any other person who lost their lives during the Third Reich.

My interest in the so called holocaust has to deal with some of the details of the alledged event.

Yes, the Nazis killed hundereds of thousands of innocent people during this terrible time. This was wrong and can't be condoned by any sane person.


----------



## editec

Sunni Man said:


> So only Jews count in the holocaust myth?
> 
> That's a typical zionist attitude. Gentiles don't count.


 
Are you really so fucking dense as you want us to believe?

Yes, of course not only Jews were killed, Sunni. 

Tens of millions of Poles, and Russians were likewise worked to death by your comrades.

Why the hell do you think that so man non-Jews like me spit on the ground ever time one of you NAZI revisionists plays this game?

My father was blown off a ship and still limps because your NAZI brothers.

Two of relatives from Czechoslovokia flew for the RAF during Britians finest hour to prevent your NAZI brotheren from extinguishing the democracy lamps from Europe, too.

Meanwhile about half my family, right before the war, were members of the National socialist movement right here in AMERICA. How quickly they changed their minds about that movement when they saw what a that rug-biting little sociopath Hitler turned out to be.

Most of those idiots STILL HATE JEWS, but they hate losers like you even more.

So sporto, while you may think you have the lock on WHITENEESS and RACIAL PRUITY, let me explain something to you...NOBODY in my Aaryan _blonde haired blue eyed high cheekboned we could all be poster boys for the SS_-- family fucking likes the NAZIs.

I don't particularly love the Jews, but I sure as hell admire them_ as a people_ more than I admire the goose-stumbling losers you so obviously cherish.


----------



## Yukon

Sunni,

They get angry, in fact rabid, when the myth is challenged. If you dont believe then you are an anti-semite. That's what they do - call names. Now certain people even try to make us believe they suffered through family members. How quaint....................


----------



## KittenKoder

Sunni Man said:


> Sorry to hear about your family members KK
> .
> I am in No way trying to slander them or any other person who lost their lives during the Third Reich.
> 
> My interest in the so called holocaust has to deal with some of the details of the alledged event.
> 
> Yes, the Nazis killed hundereds of thousands of innocent people during this terrible time. This was wrong and can't be condoned by any sane person.



Then why are you denying it? Why do you really give a fuck who was really harmed anyway? It was horrible, Adolf was a monster and the Nazis were his minions. He turned on his own in the worst possible way. Are you angry because us Jews are the only ones willing to keep reminding people of what monstrosities humans are capable of if they blindly follow one belief, one leader, and one ideal without regard to others? Are you pissed because a real event gets more attention than some religious myth in some over-translated book? Really, what do you have against the Jews telling our stories? Anytime you deny it you are slandering them, you are calling all of them liars, even if your numbers were accurate (in reality they aren't since they still haven't finished digging up all the mass graves and many are now buried under buildings even) why would it be any less atrocious? Either you are jealous, a troll, or trying to justify repeating the event.


----------



## Yukon

editec,

Take a Prozac.............


----------



## Sunni Man

Editec, you will never find a post of mine where I praise or support the Nazis for murdering innocent jews or gentiles during WWII.

Lumping me in with the Nazis just because I question some of the details of the so called holocaust is very unfair.  

btw my Father also fought in Europe in WWII with the 10th Mountain Div.


----------



## Yukon

EDITEC,

Take another PROZAC and apologize to the SUNNI MAN.


----------



## ABikerSailor

You know......I'm wondering if Sunni and Yukon are both the same person.....

They both sound the same about this.


----------



## KittenKoder

ABikerSailor said:


> You know......I'm wondering if Sunni and Yukon are both the same person.....
> 
> They both sound the same about this.



I am wondering if they are as well, both fake personas of the same person.


----------



## Sunni Man

KittenKoder said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry to hear about your family members KK
> .
> I am in No way trying to slander them or any other person who lost their lives during the Third Reich.
> 
> My interest in the so called holocaust has to deal with some of the details of the alledged event.
> 
> Yes, the Nazis killed hundereds of thousands of innocent people during this terrible time. This was wrong and can't be condoned by any sane person.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Then why are you denying it? Why do you really give a fuck who was really harmed anyway? It was horrible, Adolf was a monster and the Nazis were his minions. He turned on his own in the worst possible way. Are you angry because us Jews are the only ones willing to keep reminding people of what monstrosities humans are capable of if they blindly follow one belief, one leader, and one ideal without regard to others? Are you pissed because a real event gets more attention than some religious myth in some over-translated book? Really, what do you have against the Jews telling our stories? Anytime you deny it you are slandering them, you are calling all of them liars, even if your numbers were accurate (in reality they aren't since they still haven't finished digging up all the mass graves and many are now buried under buildings even) why would it be any less atrocious? Either you are jealous, a troll, or trying to justify repeating the event.
Click to expand...


I am Not angry about anything concerning the alleged holocaust KK

I love to read and study anything about history. Especially WWII because my Father was a soldier there in Europe fighting the Nazis.

But when countries make laws saying that this subject can only be looked at ONE way and everyone must parrot the official story or go to jail. That tells me something is wrong. Very wrong.

What is being hidden from the public?


----------



## KittenKoder

Sunni Man said:


> KittenKoder said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry to hear about your family members KK
> .
> I am in No way trying to slander them or any other person who lost their lives during the Third Reich.
> 
> My interest in the so called holocaust has to deal with some of the details of the alledged event.
> 
> Yes, the Nazis killed hundereds of thousands of innocent people during this terrible time. This was wrong and can't be condoned by any sane person.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Then why are you denying it? Why do you really give a fuck who was really harmed anyway? It was horrible, Adolf was a monster and the Nazis were his minions. He turned on his own in the worst possible way. Are you angry because us Jews are the only ones willing to keep reminding people of what monstrosities humans are capable of if they blindly follow one belief, one leader, and one ideal without regard to others? Are you pissed because a real event gets more attention than some religious myth in some over-translated book? Really, what do you have against the Jews telling our stories? Anytime you deny it you are slandering them, you are calling all of them liars, even if your numbers were accurate (in reality they aren't since they still haven't finished digging up all the mass graves and many are now buried under buildings even) why would it be any less atrocious? Either you are jealous, a troll, or trying to justify repeating the event.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I am Not angry about anything concerning the alleged holocaust KK
> 
> I love to read and study anything about history. Especially WWII because my Father was a soldier there in Europe fighting the Nazis.
> 
> But when countries make laws saying that this subject can only be looked at ONE way and everyone must parrot the official story or go to jail. That tells me something is wrong. Very wrong.
> 
> What is being hidden from the public?
Click to expand...


You really are a moron. No one is being put in jail for voicing against it, they are being called fools because that's what you are, but if they were being thrown in jail then why aren't you there now? Not to mention Mel Brooks would be in prison for life for his movie. I have read Adolfs diary, and you know he actually tells the same story as the survivors he just makes them look like the criminals through the same words you use. The few countries that are actually making laws against denying it have one REALLY damned good reason, they don't want it to happen again. Do you want it repeated? Do you want another Adolf to step up? If you don't then you will stop denying it. We aren't being paid to tell the stories, a few do get some book or movie deals, but then Jews have had a history of having good entertainers so it's not that much of a stretch. Start being a human some day, you may find it more enjoyable than seeking out things to destroy just because you don't want to face the ugly truth.


----------



## Sunni Man

KittenKoder said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> KittenKoder said:
> 
> 
> 
> Then why are you denying it? Why do you really give a fuck who was really harmed anyway? It was horrible, Adolf was a monster and the Nazis were his minions. He turned on his own in the worst possible way. Are you angry because us Jews are the only ones willing to keep reminding people of what monstrosities humans are capable of if they blindly follow one belief, one leader, and one ideal without regard to others? Are you pissed because a real event gets more attention than some religious myth in some over-translated book? Really, what do you have against the Jews telling our stories? Anytime you deny it you are slandering them, you are calling all of them liars, even if your numbers were accurate (in reality they aren't since they still haven't finished digging up all the mass graves and many are now buried under buildings even) why would it be any less atrocious? Either you are jealous, a troll, or trying to justify repeating the event.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I am Not angry about anything concerning the alleged holocaust KK
> 
> I love to read and study anything about history. Especially WWII because my Father was a soldier there in Europe fighting the Nazis.
> 
> But when countries make laws saying that this subject can only be looked at ONE way and everyone must parrot the official story or go to jail. That tells me something is wrong. Very wrong.
> 
> What is being hidden from the public?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Start being a human some day, you may find it more enjoyable than seeking out things to destroy just because you don't want to face the ugly truth.
Click to expand...

So to question anything about the holocaust makes a person less than human?

And how is examaning some details of this alleged event somehow destroying it?


----------



## KittenKoder

Sunni Man said:


> KittenKoder said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> 
> I am Not angry about anything concerning the alleged holocaust KK
> 
> I love to read and study anything about history. Especially WWII because my Father was a soldier there in Europe fighting the Nazis.
> 
> But when countries make laws saying that this subject can only be looked at ONE way and everyone must parrot the official story or go to jail. That tells me something is wrong. Very wrong.
> 
> What is being hidden from the public?
> 
> 
> 
> Start being a human some day, you may find it more enjoyable than seeking out things to destroy just because you don't want to face the ugly truth.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> So to question anything about the holocaust makes a person less than human?
> 
> And how is examaning some details of this alleged event somehow destroying it?
Click to expand...


Examing details is just that, examine them. But to trash other details just because you don't agree with them is completely wrong, nor does it make you right. That is what makes you less than human, you attack the truth just because you think you find some discrepancies, which are not really there if you look at all the evidence. So yes, you are less than human right now.


----------



## Sunni Man

I always find it sad when people call others not human just because of disagreements over politics or ideology. 

We shouldn't degrade others over issues and events that are debateable.

Heck, I will even admitt that homosexuals are humans, even though they engage in animalistic and sub human behavior.


----------



## editec

Sunni Man said:


> I always find it sad when people call others not human just because of disagreements over politics or ideology.
> 
> We shouldn't degrade others over issues and events that are debateable.
> 
> Heck, I will even admitt that homosexuals are humans, even though they engage in animalistic and sub human behavior.


 
That's damned White of you...for a NAZI, I mean.


----------



## Sunni Man

editec said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> 
> I always find it sad when people call others not human just because of disagreements over politics or ideology.
> 
> We shouldn't degrade others over issues and events that are debateable.
> 
> Heck, I will even admitt that homosexuals are humans, even though they engage in animalistic and sub human behavior.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That's damned White of you...for a NAZI, I mean.
Click to expand...

Why do you keep being up race Editec?

As for me, I am 100% against racism of any kind.


----------



## editec

Sunni Man said:


> Editec, you will never find a post of mine where I praise or support the Nazis for murdering innocent jews or gentiles during WWII.
> 
> Lumping me in with the Nazis just because I question some of the details of the so called holocaust is very unfair.
> 
> btw my Father also fought in Europe in WWII with the 10th Mountain Div.


 
Your every post denying the holocaust is a praise to national socialism, sport.

You are an apologist and a liar when you spew that revisionist crap.

It offends me as an historian AND as a White man.


----------



## Sunni Man

editec said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> 
> Editec, you will never find a post of mine where I praise or support the Nazis for murdering innocent jews or gentiles during WWII.
> 
> Lumping me in with the Nazis just because I question some of the details of the so called holocaust is very unfair.
> 
> btw my Father also fought in Europe in WWII with the 10th Mountain Div.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Your every post denying the holocaust is a praise to national socialism, sport.
> 
> You are an apologist and a liar when you spew that revisionist crap.
> 
> It offends me as an historian AND as a White man.
Click to expand...

Your blind defence of the Holohoax offends me as an historian AND as a White man.


----------



## Yukon

Sunni,

*BRAVO !* .....I agree with you and forgive me for thinking you weren't white. ....*BRAVO!*


----------



## ABikerSailor

Sunni Man said:


> KittenKoder said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> 
> I am Not angry about anything concerning the alleged holocaust KK
> 
> I love to read and study anything about history. Especially WWII because my Father was a soldier there in Europe fighting the Nazis.
> 
> But when countries make laws saying that this subject can only be looked at ONE way and everyone must parrot the official story or go to jail. That tells me something is wrong. Very wrong.
> 
> What is being hidden from the public?
> 
> 
> 
> Start being a human some day, you may find it more enjoyable than seeking out things to destroy just because you don't want to face the ugly truth.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> So to question anything about the holocaust makes a person less than human?
> 
> And how is examaning some details of this alleged event somehow destroying it?
Click to expand...


Listen Sunnidiot, TheRapist, if you were a REAL doctor rather than the hack quack that you have shown yourself to be (sorry, TheRapists don't qualify as real doctors in my book), you would know that examination means looking at things objectively, WITHOUT denying or destroying any part of it.

What you are doing is ignoring the information that is presented, as well as trying to revise history to fit your own little, twisted, narrow view.

I see that Yakking One is on your side.  Great.......2 failed Christians, one a defrocked pedophile priest, the other a failed muslim.  

Yep........Christianity and islam keep looking like good theologies.......(not).


----------



## Xenophon

Yukon said:


> Sunni,
> 
> They get angry, in fact rabid, when the myth is challenged. If you dont believe then you are an anti-semite. That's what they do - call names. Now certain people even try to make us believe they suffered through family members. How quaint....................



*You have grown useful my slave, keep telling them it's lies!

Your lovink furer has saved your picture with me, do my bidding!*


----------



## Yukon

If the Gerry's killed 6 Million jews in work camps how many didn't get killed? Any idea.......


----------



## ABikerSailor

Yakking One......since you purport to be such a fucking expert, why don't ya tell us?


----------



## nolesrock

i think everyone has already touched on the primary factors that all came together in some sort of perfectly evil storm--antisemitism (latent and expressed), hatred, scapegoatism, xenophobia, financial stress, political upheaval, paranoia, national pride, etc.--where the jews became public enemy number one

what's most amazing about those who believed in an international jewish conspiracy (and those who still do) is that modern judaism is a peaceful religion and at the time of wwii there was no real "national pride" amongst the homeless jews (and by "homeless" i mean the lack of a national homeland)...even the zionist movement wasn't as cohesive as some might suggest

i'm reading a book now, titled _*shetyl*_, about the jewish communities of poland and how they evolved during the interwar period...it details the struggle between the orthodox and progressive jews of the time that in some aspects still goes on today...but it is like any religious organization, there is a wide range of views, interpretations of scripture, feelings about social and political activism...all that to say there was no "eternal jew"

as with all stereotypes, anti-semites like to paint with HUGE brush strokes to paint an entire race of people a certain way...and humans are just too diverse, no matter what their heritage, race or creed to hem into easily defined categories...we're diverse and complex creatures...and for that reason, it seems all the more ludicrous that there could have been a worldwide jewish conspiracy...i mean, what clout did those jews in remote villages of poland really have? they weren't international bankers, advisors to churchill or roosevelt or bloodthirsty cult leaders...they were just ordinary poles trying to make a living in tough, post-wwi economic times

without the reprobate mind of a hitler or himmler, without their callousness towards human beings or brutal, cold-heartedness (i'm talking antarctica cold here!), i don't think we can ever really understand the "why" of the holocaust


----------



## Gunny

Sunni Man said:


> If you are talking about the so called Holocaust of the Jews, then the answer is simple.
> 
> During WWI the Jewish bankers had sold out Germany causing the humiliation and defeat of Germany.
> 
> The average German citizen knew this and hated the Jews for it.
> 
> When Hitler came along and voiced what everyone knew but were afraid to say.
> 
> He became wildly popular and was able to round up the traitorous Jews and put them in camps.
> 
> The average German supported the cleansing of society from Jewish decadence and immorality.



Idiot.


----------



## Gunny

Modbert said:


> Skeptik said:
> 
> 
> 
> Isn't there a genocide going on right now, in Africa?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, but David doesn't care about them since they're black and not Jewish.
> 
> I don't like how David refers to it as the holocaust as if there was only one.
> 
> How many times do Americans want to talk about how the U.S. Govt and many of her citizens committed genocide against the Indians?
> 
> Their population went from 12 million in 1500 to barely 237,000 in 1900.
Click to expand...


You aren't addressing the topic.  You are addressing your personal dislike for another member.


----------



## Gunny

roomy said:


> dilloduck said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sky Dancer said:
> 
> 
> 
> True enough.  History is full of stories of genocide.  Some are recent.  We are still haunted by the Nazi holocaust over sixty years later.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not haunted by it----I'm bored to tears of hearing about it. Let's study a few other genocides and get a little broader view of history.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> If it bores you please do us all a favour and fuck off out of the thread.
Click to expand...




How hard is THAT?


----------



## Gunny

Modbert said:


> roomy said:
> 
> 
> 
> If it bores you please do us all a favour and fuck off out of the thread.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Honestly Roomy, the holocaust against the Jews has been beaten to death more then any event in history.
> 
> The reasons of why it happened are quite obvious. There is no good reason for David to bring up such a thread short of a combination of trolling and trying to draw sympathy.
Click to expand...


You assume much.  There are many new members here since your last appearance.  If you're tired of the subject, I think Roomy had a good idea for what you can do ....


----------



## Liability

DavidS said:


> why do YOU think the holocaust happened?



Duh.

Somebody had to kill the jooooz.  For, if you look at the historical record, those joooz rarely agreed to kill themselves.


----------



## Gunny

Modbert said:


> roomy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Very good, you don't need to post on the topic, others are and you are trying your best to fuck the thread up.Kindly desist.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not trying to fuck up any thread. I'm merely questioning why it's always the Hitler Holocaust that is referred to as the only one or why it's the only one discussed?
> 
> Why no discussions once again about how the Native Americans not only got wiped out by the U.S. Govt and many of her citizens but their legacy has been a complete lie when fabricated by many lying sources.
> 
> Or how about the current Genocide going on in Darfur?
> 
> Nobody ever talks about how the Trail of Tears if done today would be considered Genocide. Or how the number of Natives killed vastly outnumber the number in the Holocaust committed by Hitler.
> 
> Or hey about the Armenian genocide? Or the genocide committed against the Russian people by their own government during the time of the Soviet Union?
> 
> Or Mengistu in Ethiopia with the red scare?
> 
> Or Saddam's genocide against the Kurds?
> 
> Or Rwanda?
> 
> My point is, why not discussion of other genocides and not just the only one that David gives a damn about?
> 
> The reason for why the Hitler Genocide occurred has already been answered by several posters, and I simply didn't feel like beating the dead horse.
Click to expand...


Yeah, you're fucking up the thread.  If you want to post on any of the topics you listed, start another thread.  If you don't want to post on the topic of this thread, go away.


----------



## Maple

DavidS said:


> I don't believe there is any question that is so simple yet that requires such a complex answer.
> 
> On another message board more relating to photography, a photographer had unveiled a new, quite excellent body of work that exhibited portraits of holocaust survivors. One critic had this to say about the subject matter:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> To be perfectly frank I see no point in adding yet another body of work -even a work as masterful as this clearly is -to the subject of the Holocaust that is devoid of any serious analysis of the question of _why._ A million volumes have already been written and they all with few exceptions primarily function to shroud the episode in mystery, rendering the subject broadly incomprehensible and in so doing, serving to intellectually disarm any meaningful resistance to its future resuscitation.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The discussion of politics is not allowed on that forum, so I thought I would turn the discussion over to here, where there are quite a few intelligent people on this forum.
> 
> So, why do YOU think the holocaust happened? Give whatever realist or phillisophical belief you might have on why it occurred.
> 
> Also, I know there are deniers out there who believe the holocaust never happened and we've got your story down - thank you. I also know there are one or two neo-nazis/skinheads/racists on this forum, again thank you, we know you hate Jews. This discussion is not for you and I would thank you if you kept out of it.
Click to expand...


Hitler a charasmatic leader who hated jews, convinced many in Germany that they were the cause of all their troubles. He had to pick an enemy to get the people in line and control them. He was succesful at it. When the German people woke up to what was happening to them, it was too late, Hitler and the Nazi's had full power and control. If you were caught helping jews you and your family would be shipped to a death camp. 
History has a way of repeating itself and genocide continues. Man's inhumanity to man can be and often is diabolical.

Who was it? the Tutsi's and the Titsi's that were killing each other in Africa because one african was blacker than the next. Ridiculous. 

When I was in high school, we had to sit through hours of actual footage of those death camps, we did an entire symester on it in history class. It was all in black and white, but beleive me it was horrific. Bulldozers piling bodies of men, women and children into mass graves. Something I will never forget. Something that probably will not happen in our High Schools today because you can bet that today's parents don't want their children to see something like that.


----------



## ABikerSailor

Yeah........kinda like what Bush Jr. and Cheney did with scaring the American people against Muslims last admin.

Shit..........no wonder the GOP is acting like a whole bunch of idiots.


----------



## Sunni Man

Maple said:


> DavidS said:
> 
> 
> 
> I don't believe there is any question that is so simple yet that requires such a complex answer.
> 
> On another message board more relating to photography, a photographer had unveiled a new, quite excellent body of work that exhibited portraits of holocaust survivors. One critic had this to say about the subject matter:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> To be perfectly frank I see no point in adding yet another body of work -even a work as masterful as this clearly is -to the subject of the Holocaust that is devoid of any serious analysis of the question of _why._ A million volumes have already been written and they all with few exceptions primarily function to shroud the episode in mystery, rendering the subject broadly incomprehensible and in so doing, serving to intellectually disarm any meaningful resistance to its future resuscitation.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The discussion of politics is not allowed on that forum, so I thought I would turn the discussion over to here, where there are quite a few intelligent people on this forum.
> 
> So, why do YOU think the holocaust happened? Give whatever realist or phillisophical belief you might have on why it occurred.
> 
> Also, I know there are deniers out there who believe the holocaust never happened and we've got your story down - thank you. I also know there are one or two neo-nazis/skinheads/racists on this forum, again thank you, we know you hate Jews. This discussion is not for you and I would thank you if you kept out of it.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Hitler a charasmatic leader who hated jews,* convinced *many in Germany that they were the cause of all their troubles.
Click to expand...

Hitler didn't have to convince the German people of anything.

They already knew that the back stabbing Jews were a big problem in Germany.

They were just waiting for a patriotic leader like Hitler who would do something to rid them of this plague.


----------



## Polk

Sunni Man said:


> If you are talking about the so called Holocaust of the Jews, then the answer is simple.
> 
> During WWI the Jewish bankers had sold out Germany causing the humiliation and defeat of Germany.
> 
> The average German citizen knew this and hated the Jews for it.
> 
> When Hitler came along and voiced what everyone knew but were afraid to say.
> 
> He became wildly popular and was able to round up the traitorous Jews and put them in camps.
> 
> The average German supported the cleansing of society from Jewish decadence and immorality.


----------



## Polk

Sunni Man said:


> Hitler didn't have to convince the German people of anything.
> 
> They already knew that the back stabbing Jews were a big problem in Germany.
> 
> They were just waiting for a patriotic leader like Hitler who would do something to rid them of this plague.



Why do I get the feeling that if this was reworded to say:

"Bush didn't have to convince the American people of anything.

They already knew that the back stabbing Muslims were a big problem in America.

They were just waiting for a patriotic leader like Bush who would do something to rid them of this plague."

You'd be flipping a shit.


----------



## Sunni Man

Actually, that's what Bush and Cheney did.


----------



## Polk

And the point sails right over your head.


----------



## Kalam

Sunni Man said:


> Hitler didn't have to convince the German people of anything.
> 
> They already knew that the back stabbing Jews were a big problem in Germany.
> 
> They were just waiting for a patriotic leader like Hitler who would do something to rid them of this plague.



Most of those killed were female, young, or elderly. Surely their deaths weren't justifiable?


----------



## Kalam

ABikerSailor said:


> Yeah........kinda like what Bush Jr. and Cheney did with scaring the American people against Muslims last admin.



Seems to have worked on you.


----------



## Sunni Man

Kalam said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hitler didn't have to convince the German people of anything.
> 
> They already knew that the back stabbing Jews were a big problem in Germany.
> 
> They were just waiting for a patriotic leader like Hitler who would do something to rid them of this plague.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Most of those killed were female, young, or elderly. Surely their deaths weren't justifiable?
Click to expand...

The murder of even one Jew was a tragedy.


----------



## mdn2000

Sunni Man said:


> Sorry to hear about your family members KK
> .
> I am in No way trying to slander them or any other person who lost their lives during the Third Reich.
> 
> My interest in the so called holocaust has to deal with some of the details of the alledged event.
> 
> Yes, the Nazis killed hundereds of thousands of innocent people during this terrible time. This was wrong and can't be condoned by any sane person.



Just because you dont mean to slander does not mean that you did not slander or if you meant to or not. Your interest is in the details yet you purposely state thousands, not millions. 

Why did the Jews die, is it because they dressed real crazy, all in black, is it because the spread blood on the doors of thier houses, is it because the Rothschilds got rich from selling antique coins to the Royalty that controled Germany. Is it because the Catholic church taught the congregation that the Jewish religion was contrary to Christianity, is it because the German people were the last to come out of the Dark Ages. 

There are many, many, many, facts and events one need look at to know what happened across Europe, not just Germany, I should say across Europe and Asia, this event was not solely an event of Hitlers doing. Hitler was influenced heavy by Wagnoneer, I have yet to study wagoneer. 

There is a reason there are hundreds of books on the subject.

This is not so complicated, its just a matter that you cannot base your knowledge on one book or even a dozen books, there is much to read on the subject to get a grasp of all the events.


----------



## JakeStarkey

The Holocaust with its epic proportions of tragedy, suffering, and killings existed. The Nazis did indeed create an industrial mass-murder machine that ran its victims through like machine parts in a factory.

Any who deny are either (1) mentally feeble; (2) woefully ignorant; (3) motivated by malignancy; or (4) any combination of the above.


----------



## mdn2000

JakeStarkey said:


> The Holocaust with its epic proportions of tragedy, suffering, and killings existed. The Nazis did indeed create an industrial mass-murder machine that ran its victims through like machine parts in a factory.
> 
> Any who deny are either (1) mentally feeble; (2) woefully ignorant; (3) motivated by malignancy; or (4) any combination of the above.



I think you should say Germans, Nazi's were ordinary German people. It was not only the Nazi party, the communist party of Germany supported the Nazi party to form the government of the people.

There were many people involved that did not belong to the Nazi party, the conditions and event that led to the Holocaust evolved long before the Nazi party came into exsistence. 

I do not presume you do know this I just thought I would add this so others would know. Hell, even Jews willingly helped kill millions of jews, only to be killed themselves, ironic.


----------



## JakeStarkey

mdn2000 said:


> JakeStarkey said:
> 
> 
> 
> The Holocaust with its epic proportions of tragedy, suffering, and killings existed. The Nazis did indeed create an industrial mass-murder machine that ran its victims through like machine parts in a factory.
> 
> Any who deny are either (1) mentally feeble; (2) woefully ignorant; (3) motivated by malignancy; or (4) any combination of the above.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think you should say Germans, Nazi's were ordinary German people. It was not only the Nazi party, the communist party of Germany supported the Nazi party to form the government of the people.
> 
> There were many people involved that did not belong to the Nazi party, the conditions and event that led to the Holocaust evolved long before the Nazi party came into exsistence.
> 
> I do not presume you do know this I just thought I would add this so others would know. Hell, even Jews willingly helped kill millions of jews, only to be killed themselves, ironic.
Click to expand...


Your comments oversimplify what happened.  I do agree that all should study the  culture of anti-semitism in Europe that underwrote the holocaust.  But, yes, verily, yes, it was the Nazi Party with Adolph Hitler at its head that created an industrialized mass murder machine, not the German people.  I will fairly point out that some Jews served as kapos and trustees in the labor, concentration, and mass murder camps, hoping to live and perhaps escape the ultimate penalty.  Most did not.


----------



## Sunni Man

For those who are interested in the real truth about the so called holocaust:    www.judicial-inc.biz/Auschwitz.htm


----------



## Yukon

The Jew cheated the Germans for many years. When Herr Hitler came to power he forced the Jew to work at minimum wage in Labour Camps. The Jew being weak could not tolerate work and many died as a result. There was NO mass extermination of the Jew.


----------



## Douger

dilloduck said:


> Sky Dancer said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Anguille said:
> 
> 
> 
> Which holocaust?  Our history is full of them.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> True enough.  History is full of stories of genocide.  Some are recent.  We are still haunted by the Nazi holocaust over sixty years later.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I'm not haunted by it----I'm bored to tears of hearing about it. Let's study a few other genocides and get a little broader view of history.
Click to expand...


OK. American Indians.
One more ticket to hell for the " blue bloods"


----------



## ABikerSailor

Yukon said:


> The Jew cheated the Germans for many years. When Herr Hitler came to power he forced the Jew to work at minimum wage in Labour Camps. The Jew being weak could not tolerate work and many died as a result. There was NO mass extermination of the Jew.



Nice.......you're just as big an idiot as Sunni Man. 

So........how's that white power thing working out for you?


----------



## Sunni Man

Yukon said:


> The Jew cheated the Germans for many years. When Herr Hitler came to power he forced the Jew to work at minimum wage in Labour Camps. The Jew being weak could not tolerate work and many died as a result. There was NO mass extermination of the Jew.


Although, I don't agree with Yukon's racist veiws.

There is alot of truth to his post.


----------



## Annie

DavidS said:


> I don't believe there is any question that is so simple yet that requires such a complex answer.
> 
> On another message board more relating to photography, a photographer had unveiled a new, quite excellent body of work that exhibited portraits of holocaust survivors. One critic had this to say about the subject matter:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> To be perfectly frank I see no point in adding yet another body of work -even a work as masterful as this clearly is -to the subject of the Holocaust that is devoid of any serious analysis of the question of _why._ A million volumes have already been written and they all with few exceptions primarily function to shroud the episode in mystery, rendering the subject broadly incomprehensible and in so doing, serving to intellectually disarm any meaningful resistance to its future resuscitation.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The discussion of politics is not allowed on that forum, so I thought I would turn the discussion over to here, where there are quite a few intelligent people on this forum.
> 
> So, why do YOU think the holocaust happened? Give whatever realist or phillisophical belief you might have on why it occurred.
> 
> Also, I know there are deniers out there who believe the holocaust never happened and we've got your story down - thank you. I also know there are one or two neo-nazis/skinheads/racists on this forum, again thank you, we know you hate Jews. This discussion is not for you and I would thank you if you kept out of it.
Click to expand...


I'd say bottom line, jealousy of education and accomplishments. That a subgroup had the audacity of hope, to educate themselves and progeny beyond the norm, then succeed, targeted them for destruction.


----------



## Skeptik

Yukon said:


> The Jew cheated the Germans for many years. When Herr Hitler came to power he forced the Jew to work at minimum wage in Labour Camps. The Jew being weak could not tolerate work and many died as a result. There was NO mass extermination of the Jew.



And you say that conservatives are wackjobs. 

 Since you are parroting the opinions of a leader who has said the same, one can only think that said leader is your hero, or at least in the same political camp as you are.

What else has Ahmadinajad said that you agree with?


----------



## Yukon

Septic,

The Jew has fooled a majority of Christian Americans as has the Negro. The Jew and the Negro are pathetic people always crying and blaming others for their failure. Pathetic people all of them.......


----------



## ABikerSailor

Yukon said:


> Septic,
> 
> The Jew has fooled a majority of Christian Americans as has the Negro. The Jew and the Negro are pathetic people always crying and blaming others for their failure. Pathetic people all of them.......



So..........is your KKK uniform just for dress, or is it something you wear daily?


----------



## Skeptik

Yukon said:


> Septic,
> 
> The Jew has fooled a majority of Christian Americans as has the Negro. The Jew and the Negro are pathetic people always crying and blaming others for their failure. Pathetic people all of them.......



Well, we know where you stand at least.  Most people who have antisemitic or racist ideas tend to keep them to themselves.  Yours are right out there for everyone to see.  I applaud you for that, but you're dead wrong.


----------



## midcan5

Read the intro online.

[ame=http://www.amazon.com/Nature-Prejudice-25th-Anniversary/dp/0201001799/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1239197251&sr=1-1]Amazon.com: The Nature of Prejudice: 25th Anniversary Edition (9780201001792): Gordon W. Allport, Kenneth Clark, Thomas Pettigrew: Books[/ame]


No longer easily available but worth a look. check a good library.


[ame=http://www.amazon.com/Authoritarian-Personality-Studies-Prejudice/dp/0393311120/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1239196467&sr=1-1]Amazon.com: The Authoritarian Personality (Studies in Prejudice) (9780393311129): Theodor W. Adorno, Else Frenkel-Brunswik, Daniel J. Levinson: Books[/ame]


This book and the two above influenced my thinking.


[ame=http://www.amazon.com/Sanctions-Evil-Sources-Social-Destructiveness/dp/B001NHAIFG/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1239197123&sr=1-3]Amazon.com: Sanctions for Evil Sources of Social Destructiveness: Nevitt & Comstock, Craig Sanford: Books[/ame]


[ame=http://www.amazon.com/Becoming-Evil-Ordinary-Genocide-Killing/dp/0195189493/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1239197320&sr=1-2]Amazon.com: Becoming Evil: How Ordinary People Commit Genocide and Mass Killing (9780195189490): Books[/ame]


This is interesting too; I am hoping this is turning around though. 


[ame=http://www.amazon.com/Authoritarian-Specter-Robert-Altemeyer/dp/0674053052/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1239196467&sr=1-2]Amazon.com: The Authoritarian Specter (9780674053052): Robert Altemeyer: Books[/ame]


----------



## Yukon

The sources you have quoted really do lack objectivity. If you want the truth I suggest you read some of the work published by Ernst Zündel. It is objective and historically accurate.



midcan5 said:


> Read the intro online.
> 
> Amazon.com: The Nature of Prejudice: 25th Anniversary Edition (9780201001792): Gordon W. Allport, Kenneth Clark, Thomas Pettigrew: Books
> 
> *(This was written by a supporter of Israel)*
> 
> 
> Amazon.com: The Authoritarian Personality (Studies in Prejudice) (9780393311129): Theodor W. Adorno, Else Frenkel-Brunswik, Daniel J. Levinson: Books
> 
> 
> *(this author is Jewish therefore biased)*
> 
> Amazon.com: Sanctions for Evil Sources of Social Destructiveness: Nevitt & Comstock, Craig Sanford: Books
> 
> *(this author is married to a Jewish women therefore biased)*
> 
> 
> 
> Amazon.com: Becoming Evil: How Ordinary People Commit Genocide and Mass Killing (9780195189490): Books
> 
> *(this author is Jewish therefore biased)*
> 
> 
> Amazon.com: The Authoritarian Specter (9780674053052): Robert Altemeyer: Books
> 
> *(this author is Jewish therefore biased)*


----------



## Sunni Man

Yukon said:


> The sources you have quoted really do lack objectivity. If you want the truth I suggest you read some of the *work published by Ernst Zündel*. It is objective and historically accurate.


*Who Is Ernst Zundel, And Why Is He In Jail?*

By Mark Weber

For more than six months now, Ernst Zundel has been held without charge in solitary confinement in Canada on the pretext that he is a threat to national security. In fact, this 64-year-old German-born writer, publisher and civil rights activist is a political prisoner and a victim of great injustice.

Zundel was arrested at his home in Tennessee on Feb. 5, where he had been living peacefully with his wife, Ingrid Rimland, on the pretext that he missed an interview date with immigration authorities. Two weeks later he was deported to Canada, even though his wife is an American citizen.

Jewish groups are demanding that Zundel be deported to Germany, where he faces years of imprisonment for the *thought crime* of denying the Holocaust. (Holocaust denial is against the law in Germany, France, Switzerland and some other European countries.)

Zundel is in prison not because his views are unpopular, or because hes a security risk. Hes in prison because Jewish groups want him there. Hes a prisoner because he promotes views that the Jewish-Zionist lobby considers harmful to its interests.

This lobby is the decisive, critical factor in the decades-old campaign to silence him. The only sustained and institutionalized effort to imprison him has come from this lobby, which includes the Simon Wiesenthal Center, the Canadian Jewish Congress, the Canadian Holocaust Remembrance Association, and the League for Human Rights of Bnai Brith (with the Anti-Defamation League, its counterpart in the US).

A few prominent Canadians have been speaking out against the unjust treatment of Ernst Zundel.

One such person is Bill Dunphy, a veteran investigative journalist and editor for the daily Hamilton Spectator. He spent six years probing Canadas white supremacist movement, and got to know Zundel personally. Although he has no sympathy for Zundels views, in a hard-hitting column (Hamilton Spectator, May 14) he told readers:

Our government has seized and branded Ernst Zundel, stripped him of his human rights, tried him in secret and found him wanting, and will now hand him over to a foreign government anxious to throw him in jail...


Who Is Ernst Zundel, And Why Is He In Jail?


----------



## Yukon

Herr Zundel was acquitted of spreading hate by the Supreme Court of Canada but ultimately was extridited back to Germany to face bogus charges levied against him by members of the ZOG.


----------



## Sunni Man

The ZOG "thought police" who operate out of their zionist base camp called Israel. Is a world wide terrorist organization.


----------



## Yukon

I agree with you my child but I also believe that Arabs are far worse than Jews. The Arab is a sneaky, treacherous, cowardly, little, brown skinned dog and they worship a pedophile a man who married a 7 year old girl.



Sunni Man said:


> The ZOG "thought police" who operate out of their zionist base camp called Israel. Is a world wide terrorist organization.


----------



## Sunni Man

btw I am not an arab nor your child.

But I do realize you priests like children. 

I mean really, really, like children. 

Especially, male children!!


----------



## Yukon

Sunni-dog,

Your attempt at insulting me has failed my child. It is you and your people who worship a pedophile.


----------



## mdn2000

JakeStarkey said:


> mdn2000 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JakeStarkey said:
> 
> 
> 
> The Holocaust with its epic proportions of tragedy, suffering, and killings existed. The Nazis did indeed create an industrial mass-murder machine that ran its victims through like machine parts in a factory.
> 
> Any who deny are either (1) mentally feeble; (2) woefully ignorant; (3) motivated by malignancy; or (4) any combination of the above.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think you should say Germans, Nazi's were ordinary German people. It was not only the Nazi party, the communist party of Germany supported the Nazi party to form the government of the people.
> 
> There were many people involved that did not belong to the Nazi party, the conditions and event that led to the Holocaust evolved long before the Nazi party came into exsistence.
> 
> I do not presume you do know this I just thought I would add this so others would know. Hell, even Jews willingly helped kill millions of jews, only to be killed themselves, ironic.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Your comments oversimplify what happened.  I do agree that all should study the  culture of anti-semitism in Europe that underwrote the holocaust.  But, yes, verily, yes, it was the Nazi Party with Adolph Hitler at its head that created an industrialized mass murder machine, not the German people.  I will fairly point out that some Jews served as kapos and trustees in the labor, concentration, and mass murder camps, hoping to live and perhaps escape the ultimate penalty.  Most did not.
Click to expand...


Who was in the Nazi party if it was not the German people.


----------



## Yukon

The Nazis were guilty of illegally rigging elections, invading countries, and bombing innocent children and women. If you weren't "with them" than you were "against them". Sound familiar ???????


----------



## mdn2000

Yukon said:


> The Nazis were guilty of illegally rigging elections, invading countries, and bombing innocent children and women. If you weren't "with them" than you were "against them". Sound familiar ???????



Yep, the damned clintons and the democrat party.

Not to mention the Canadians fiasco with Rwanda, canada's turn to step up to the plate and their General does nothing, the Canadians dont send troops or nothing to support him. That sounds like crimes the NAZIs would commit as well.


----------



## Godboy

Dogbert said:


> Skeptik said:
> 
> 
> 
> Isn't there a genocide going on right now, in Africa?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, but David doesn't care about them since they're black and not Jewish.
> 
> I don't like how David refers to it as the holocaust as if there was only one.
> 
> How many times do Americans want to talk about how the U.S. Govt and many of her citizens committed genocide against the Indians?
> 
> Their population went from 12 million in 1500 to barely 237,000 in 1900.
Click to expand...


Um, seeing how the meaning of the word holocaust means to completey destroy fire, has there been another situation where millions of people were destroyed by fire? If not, then your dislike for Davids use of the word is misplaced and ignorant. 

There is no holocaust in Africa, but there is genocide going on. The genocide of the Jews during WW2 was nicknamed "the holocaust" because they used ovens to burn their bodies. There are no ovens burning bodies in Africa, therefore the word genocide is used. They are different words... get it? Ok, you are free to squirm in your embarrassment now, as the adults discuss this topic.


----------



## Ringel05

DavidS said:


> I don't believe there is any question that is so simple yet that requires such a complex answer.
> 
> On another message board more relating to photography, a photographer had unveiled a new, quite excellent body of work that exhibited portraits of holocaust survivors. One critic had this to say about the subject matter:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> To be perfectly frank I see no point in adding yet another body of work -even a work as masterful as this clearly is -to the subject of the Holocaust that is devoid of any serious analysis of the question of _why._ A million volumes have already been written and they all with few exceptions primarily function to shroud the episode in mystery, rendering the subject broadly incomprehensible and in so doing, serving to intellectually disarm any meaningful resistance to its future resuscitation.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The discussion of politics is not allowed on that forum, so I thought I would turn the discussion over to here, where there are quite a few intelligent people on this forum.
> 
> So, why do YOU think the holocaust happened? Give whatever realist or phillisophical belief you might have on why it occurred.
> 
> Also, I know there are deniers out there who believe the holocaust never happened and we've got your story down - thank you. I also know there are one or two neo-nazis/skinheads/racists on this forum, again thank you, we know you hate Jews. This discussion is not for you and I would thank you if you kept out of it.
Click to expand...


I don't have time to look through all these posts and someone may have already presented this but it comes down to one (totally debunked) area of "science", Eugenics in combination with generations of racial hatred and collective racial stereotyping.  The Nazis took Eugenics to the extreme.  The true complexity derives from each individual's personal rationalizations for their participation, passive or active and the historical development of Eugenics in Germany up to the introduction and application of the final solution.


----------



## mdn2000

Ringel05 said:


> DavidS said:
> 
> 
> 
> I don't believe there is any question that is so simple yet that requires such a complex answer.
> 
> On another message board more relating to photography, a photographer had unveiled a new, quite excellent body of work that exhibited portraits of holocaust survivors. One critic had this to say about the subject matter:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> To be perfectly frank I see no point in adding yet another body of work -even a work as masterful as this clearly is -to the subject of the Holocaust that is devoid of any serious analysis of the question of _why._ A million volumes have already been written and they all with few exceptions primarily function to shroud the episode in mystery, rendering the subject broadly incomprehensible and in so doing, serving to intellectually disarm any meaningful resistance to its future resuscitation.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The discussion of politics is not allowed on that forum, so I thought I would turn the discussion over to here, where there are quite a few intelligent people on this forum.
> 
> So, why do YOU think the holocaust happened? Give whatever realist or phillisophical belief you might have on why it occurred.
> 
> Also, I know there are deniers out there who believe the holocaust never happened and we've got your story down - thank you. I also know there are one or two neo-nazis/skinheads/racists on this forum, again thank you, we know you hate Jews. This discussion is not for you and I would thank you if you kept out of it.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I don't have time to look through all these posts and someone may have already presented this but it comes down to one (totally debunked) area of "science", Eugenics in combination with generations of racial hatred and collective racial stereotyping.  The Nazis took Eugenics to the extreme.  The true complexity derives from each individual's personal rationalizations for their participation, passive or active and the historical development of Eugenics in Germany up to the introduction and application of the final solution.
Click to expand...


After I looked up the definition of Eugenics I pretty much agree with your post, simple but actually kind of consice. I guess I need to look up a bit more on Eugenics to really know what your talking about but I believe I get the general idea.  What I dont understand and maybe I just aint reading the sentence correctly is how you state "(totally debunked)".  Does that not mean this area of science is irrelevant or false?


----------



## JW Frogen

Why did the holocaust occur?

Because it could.

That it could says more about those who wouldn't stop it than those who could make it happen.


----------



## Ringel05

mdn2000 said:


> Ringel05 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> DavidS said:
> 
> 
> 
> I don't believe there is any question that is so simple yet that requires such a complex answer.
> 
> On another message board more relating to photography, a photographer had unveiled a new, quite excellent body of work that exhibited portraits of holocaust survivors. One critic had this to say about the subject matter:
> 
> 
> 
> The discussion of politics is not allowed on that forum, so I thought I would turn the discussion over to here, where there are quite a few intelligent people on this forum.
> 
> So, why do YOU think the holocaust happened? Give whatever realist or phillisophical belief you might have on why it occurred.
> 
> Also, I know there are deniers out there who believe the holocaust never happened and we've got your story down - thank you. I also know there are one or two neo-nazis/skinheads/racists on this forum, again thank you, we know you hate Jews. This discussion is not for you and I would thank you if you kept out of it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I don't have time to look through all these posts and someone may have already presented this but it comes down to one (totally debunked) area of "science", Eugenics in combination with generations of racial hatred and collective racial stereotyping.  The Nazis took Eugenics to the extreme.  The true complexity derives from each individual's personal rationalizations for their participation, passive or active and the historical development of Eugenics in Germany up to the introduction and application of the final solution.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> After I looked up the definition of Eugenics I pretty much agree with your post, simple but actually kind of consice. I guess I need to look up a bit more on Eugenics to really know what your talking about but I believe I get the general idea.  What I dont understand and maybe I just aint reading the sentence correctly is how you state "(totally debunked)".  _*Does that not mean this area of science is irrelevant or false*_?
Click to expand...


Yes.  If you need an example of someone who still believes in it just read any of Yukon's posts.
The Nazis believed they (Aryans) were the most evolved race, hence the master race.  The ones who by evolutionary standards had the right (survival of the fittest) to do what ever they deemed necessary in dealing with everyone else.  Almost all of Nazi "science" was directed along this vein.


----------



## midcan5

Yukon said:


> The sources you have quoted really do lack objectivity. If you want the truth I suggest you read some of the work published by Ernst Zündel. It is objective and historically accurate.
> 
> Amazon.com: Sanctions for Evil Sources of Social Destructiveness: Nevitt & Comstock, Craig Sanford: Books
> 
> *(this author is married to a Jewish women therefore biased)*
> 
> Amazon.com: Becoming Evil: How Ordinary People Commit Genocide and Mass Killing (9780195189490): Books
> 
> *(this author is Jewish therefore biased)*



I'm not sure that any debate would change people like you, but you are obviously not very honest as James Waller wrote, "As a Christian scholar, I believe the concept of social evil -- whether it is racial prejudice, collective violence, or more general issues of social injustice -- to be one of the most pivotal spiritual challenges we face. As such, it is a central issue around which serious scholarship and public conversation should be centered. I plan to use opportunities afforded by the Lindaman Chair position to encourage such work in a number of ways."

And "Sanctions for Evil," contains many authors who are not Jewish or not married to Jewish women, which is really an odd complaint and not an argument against fact.

Holocaust deniers amaze me, well actually not - My father in law was among the first soldiers in Mulhausen, you guys should talk to him. Would it help? Nah, because your beliefs are not based in reason. 

I think humans find it hard to face the fact humans can be evil and often refuse to see the past as it was. Germany could not face the loss of WW1 and required an excuse for what went wrong. People do that, it is as perennial as the grass. So someone needs to be blamed, some foe needs to be named, and some foe needs to hated for why else are things as they are. 


*"We first kill people with our minds, before we kill them with weapons. Whatever the conflict, the enemy is always the destroyer. We're on God's side; they're barbaric. We're good, they're evil. War gives us a feeling of moral clarity that we lack at other times." Sam Keen

Waller's book is excellent for those interested in a study of evil as he lists many with horrendous detail. *


----------



## Sunni Man

The so called holocaust is a huge fraud used by the zionists to gain sympathy for Israel.

It has become a huge money making cash cow, that rakes in billions of dollars from around the world.

People are taught the holohoax myth as children and must believe it 100%

In many countries it is against the law to question the holohoax. And you will go to prison if you do.

Even in democratic countries, freedom of speech is denied when it come to discussion of the so called holocaust.

Why is this? 

What are they afraid of?


----------



## Yukon

*BRAVO* to my stinking, rotting, disgusting, allah worshipping Arab friend...*BRAVO ! *

You finally got soemthing right:



Sunni Man said:


> The so called holocaust is a huge fraud used by the zionists to gain sympathy for Israel.
> 
> It has become a huge money making cash cow, that rakes in billions of dollars from around the world.
> 
> People are taught the holohoax myth as children and must believe it 100%
> 
> In many countries it is against the law to question the holohoax. And you will go to prison if you do.
> 
> Even in democratic countries, freedom of speech is denied when it come to discussion of the so called holocaust.
> 
> Why is this?
> 
> What are they afraid of?


----------



## ABikerSailor

Nice.........Sunnidiot and Yakking One are going to form their own little racist club.

Shit........invite Chucked Ass and you'll have your own little Rainbow Coalition of hate!


----------



## Liability

Sunni Man said:


> If you are talking about the so called Holocaust of the Jews, then the answer is simple.
> 
> During WWI the Jewish bankers had sold out Germany causing the humiliation and defeat of Germany.
> 
> The average German citizen knew this and hated the Jews for it.
> 
> When Hitler came along and voiced what everyone knew but were afraid to say.
> 
> He became wildly popular and was able to round up the traitorous Jews and put them in camps.
> 
> The average German supported the cleansing of society from Jewish decadence and immorality.



Vile shit.  Not unexpected from a guy calling himself "Sunni Man," of course.

But vile all the same.


----------



## HUGGY

*Why did the holocaust occur? *

You know why it happened David.  We have covered this ground already.  The reason is that no Jew nor any supporter of Jews stepped up to the plate with a tenth of the balls of your typical palistinian suicide bomber and was willing to make the ultimate sacrifice.


----------



## GHook93

Without a doubt the Muslims would have been the victims of the Holocaust. In all of Europe there are less than 1 mil Jews, back in the 30s and 40s there were 9 mil Jews. Back in the 30-40s the only identifiable minority in Europe really were the Jews! Therefore they are the clear and easy target! 

That is not case now there are 53 mil Muslim in Europe and 16 mil alone in EU countries!
islam.de / Newsinternational / In Europa leben gegenÂ­wÃ¤rtig knapp 53 Millionen Muslime

There are 4.3 million Muslims in Germany, far higher than the Jews in the 30-40s!
Studie: Deutlich mehr Muslime in Deutschland | Deutschland | Deutsche Welle | 23.06.2009

So who would have been Hitler's scapegoat? The Muslims would have been slaughtered like sheep! Its not out of the question happening in the near future. Muslims are flooding into Europe. Their numbers are growing and agitation between native Europeans and Muslim immigrates is not that great! 

So Sunni Man don't toss stones from a glass house!


----------



## Sunni Man

ABikerSailor said:


> Nice.........Sunnidiot and Yakking One are going to form their own little racist club.
> 
> Shit........invite Chucked Ass and you'll have your own little Rainbow Coalition of hate!


As I have stated before ABikerSailor.

I am 100% against racism, in any way, shape or form.

Racism is based on stupidity and pure ignorance.


----------



## Yukon

To disagree is not racist, to express a differing opinion is not racist. It is freedom.


----------



## ABikerSailor

Sunni Man said:


> ABikerSailor said:
> 
> 
> 
> Nice.........Sunnidiot and Yakking One are going to form their own little racist club.
> 
> Shit........invite Chucked Ass and you'll have your own little Rainbow Coalition of hate!
> 
> 
> 
> As I have stated before ABikerSailor.
> 
> I am 100% against racism, in any way, shape or form.
> 
> Racism is based on stupidity and pure ignorance.
Click to expand...


Well......based on the posts that you and Yakking One have put on here, you are both stupid as well as ignorant of how the world really works.

Yep.......I guess you dumb ignorant fuckers qualify as racists as well!


----------



## ABikerSailor

HUGGY said:


> *Why did the holocaust occur? *
> 
> You know why it happened David.  We have covered this ground already.  The reason is that no Jew nor any supporter of Jews stepped up to the plate with a tenth of the balls of your typical palistinian suicide bomber and was willing to make the ultimate sacrifice.



Might beg to differ with you on that one Huggy.........ever hear of the Jewish Resistance that was in the ghettos fighting against the Nazis?  How's about Anne Frank (whose family was part of the resistance), as well as Oscar Schindler.

I'd kinda say that those people had just as many balls (if not more) than your basic terrorist IsLAME asshole.


----------



## Sunni Man

GHook93 said:


> God help you if we ever meet in a dark alley!



I am sure all of the children in your neighborhood also fear meeting your pedophile ass in a dark alley!!!


----------



## Sunni Man

ABikerSailor said:


> HUGGY said:
> 
> 
> 
> *Why did the holocaust occur? *
> 
> You know why it happened David.  We have covered this ground already.  The reason is that no Jew nor any supporter of Jews stepped up to the plate with a tenth of the balls of your typical palistinian suicide bomber and was willing to make the ultimate sacrifice.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Might beg to differ with you on that one Huggy.........ever hear of the Jewish Resistance that was in the ghettos fighting against the Nazis?  How's about Anne Frank (whose family was part of the resistance), as well as Oscar Schindler.
Click to expand...


Even the radical zionists don't mention the fraudlent Anne Frank story. 

It has been basically proven a money making hoax.


----------



## GHook93

Sunni Man said:


> GHook93 said:
> 
> 
> 
> God help you if we ever meet in a dark alley!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I am sure all of the children in your neighborhood also fear meeting your pedophile ass in a dark alley!!!
Click to expand...


Original! How long did it take you to come up with that!


----------



## Sunni Man

GHook93 said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> GHook93 said:
> 
> 
> 
> God help you if we ever meet in a dark alley!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I am sure all of the children in your neighborhood also fear meeting your pedophile ass in a dark alley!!!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Original! How long did it take you to come up with that!
Click to expand...

Thanks!!! 

(only took about 5 seconds)


----------



## mdn2000

Why did the holocaust occur. Its a simple answer that is hard for sane intelligent people to get their head around. Hatred for another man simply because they have different ideas. We can see examples of this irrational behavior.

Here is an example of the hatred right from Sunniman 



> I am sure all of the children in your neighborhood also fear meeting your pedophile ass in a dark alley



Imagine what this man may do given different times and different circumstances. I can see the hatred, can I understand, nope, how do you understand irrationality and hatred.


----------



## HUGGY

ABikerSailor said:


> HUGGY said:
> 
> 
> 
> *Why did the holocaust occur? *
> 
> You know why it happened David.  We have covered this ground already.  The reason is that no Jew nor any supporter of Jews stepped up to the plate with a tenth of the balls of your typical palistinian suicide bomber and was willing to make the ultimate sacrifice.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Might beg to differ with you on that one Huggy.........ever hear of the Jewish Resistance that was in the ghettos fighting against the Nazis?  How's about Anne Frank (whose family was part of the resistance), as well as Oscar Schindler.
> 
> I'd kinda say that those people had just as many balls (if not more) than your basic terrorist IsLAME asshole.
Click to expand...


I'm not a super jew hater..  I don't care for thier rudeness..don't give a crap about Israel one way or the other as long as they stay the fuck out of our way and our business.  Same rules apply to any other nation.  

I learned to fly ..stole a twin from boeing field in Seattle and flew it all over the western hemiphere for quite a while before getting caught.  I know a little about clandestine operations.  If a goofball like me could do it just for fun and profit I shudder to think what is possible when all of the lives of everyone you know and care about is on the line.
I'd have say at the very least they dropped the fuckin ball.

Better re read Gibran.  You choose to lead..you choose to follow..you choose to be a victim..as well as choose to victimise.


----------



## mdn2000

Sunni Man said:


> mdn2000 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Here is an example of the hatred right from Sunniman
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I am sure all of the children in your neighborhood also fear meeting your pedophile ass in a dark alley
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You do realize my response was to a physical threat GHook made to me in a rep he sent me?
Click to expand...


A physical threat requires someone to be in your presence, its characterizations like that  you make in your posts,\ based on how you feel not facts that make you such an easy target when someone posts facts.

I dont take references to children and pedophiles lightly, to use such references because of something someone said in "neg rep" is pretty low by any standard, no matter the reason.

If you think the same after reading this I will delete all my bullshit across a dozen posts if you do the same. Fair enough.


----------



## ABikerSailor

Sunni Man said:


> GHook93 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> 
> I am sure all of the children in your neighborhood also fear meeting your pedophile ass in a dark alley!!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Original! How long did it take you to come up with that!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Thanks!!!
> 
> (only took about 5 seconds)
Click to expand...


OF COURSE it only took you 5 seconds Sunnidiot..............

You do fastest what you know best, and apparently gay pedophilia is right up your alley!


----------



## ABikerSailor

Yeah.......it's Jewish bodies in a mass grave of those that were killed in a concentration camp.

Still think it's a hoax?


----------



## Yukon

The picture posted depicts dead people and it is FALSE. The Jews have been fabricating similar photographic evidence for years. It's all lies. There was NO, repeat NO mass extermination of people before or during WW II by the German people or representatives of the German people.


----------



## Shogun

GHook93 said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> 
> The so called holocaust is a huge fraud used by the zionists to gain sympathy for Israel.
> 
> It has become a huge money making cash cow, that rakes in billions of dollars from around the world.
> 
> People are taught the holohoax myth as children and must believe it 100%
> 
> In many countries it is against the law to question the holohoax. And you will go to prison if you do.
> 
> Even in democratic countries, freedom of speech is denied when it come to discussion of the so called holocaust.
> 
> Why is this?
> 
> What are they afraid of?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You are a cowardly fuck! You will write garbage on my visitor board, but yours is closed! Worthless coward!* God help you if we ever meet in a dark alley!*
Click to expand...





Anyone else hear Mort Goldman when reading this?  Come on, nose job, tell us about how you hate the word CREAMS.


----------



## Yukon

What extermination are you people talking about? 

*Per World Almanac figures the Jew population INCREASED by 584,549 between 1941 and 1948. So, this being the case, where did the 6,000,000 dead go?*


----------



## REVxERIK

Yukon said:


> What extermination are you people talking about?
> 
> *Per World Almanac figures the Jew population INCREASED by 584,549 between 1941 and 1948. So, this being the case, where did the 6,000,000 dead go?*



source?


----------



## DiveCon

REVxERIK said:


> Yukon said:
> 
> 
> 
> What extermination are you people talking about?
> 
> *Per World Almanac figures the Jew population INCREASED by 584,549 between 1941 and 1948. So, this being the case, where did the 6,000,000 dead go?*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> source?
Click to expand...

his ass
he cant post a link to it


----------



## REVxERIK

DiveCon said:


> REVxERIK said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yukon said:
> 
> 
> 
> What extermination are you people talking about?
> 
> *Per World Almanac figures the Jew population INCREASED by 584,549 between 1941 and 1948. So, this being the case, where did the 6,000,000 dead go?*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> source?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> his ass
> he cant post a link to it
Click to expand...


lol!


----------



## Yukon

jews1941


----------



## DiveCon

Yukon said:


> jews1941


is that your OWN website?
sure seems to fit


----------



## Shogun

Yukon said:


> jews1941



wrong answer, dude.  If that is your evidence then you just earned yourself the BIG USMB FAIL award.


oh.. another site on that page

Standard Test Scores


notice the nomenclature.   This kind of shit is worthless.


----------



## REVxERIK

Sunni Man said:


> ABikerSailor said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> HUGGY said:
> 
> 
> 
> *Why did the holocaust occur? *
> 
> You know why it happened David.  We have covered this ground already.  The reason is that no Jew nor any supporter of Jews stepped up to the plate with a tenth of the balls of your typical palistinian suicide bomber and was willing to make the ultimate sacrifice.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Might beg to differ with you on that one Huggy.........ever hear of the Jewish Resistance that was in the ghettos fighting against the Nazis?  How's about Anne Frank (whose family was part of the resistance), as well as Oscar Schindler.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Even the radical zionists don't mention the fraudlent Anne Frank story.
> 
> It has been basically proven a money making hoax.
Click to expand...


proven by who?


----------



## REVxERIK

here's what i'm seeing, yukon is sayin ignorant hatefull bullshit to get a rise because he's bored, and you're all biting. just ignore his dumbass comments and you'll feel better


----------



## stonewall

I took an interest in this a long time ago. And, it really got my attention. Although I am not a Jew.

The Holocaust was an extreme event. But, every generation of Jews has had their "holocaust". Not as great as Nazi Germany, but each generation of Jews, for over 2000 years suffered at the hands of non-Jews. 

It was a regular thing. 

The Holocaust that Germans conducted was a culmination of history, in a way. It should not be seen as a surprise. 

The thing is, it should never happen again. And, the Jews will not lay down anymore.


----------



## GHook93

stonewall said:


> I took an interest in this a long time ago. And, it really got my attention. Although I am not a Jew.
> 
> The Holocaust was an extreme event. But, every generation of Jews has had their "holocaust". Not as great as Nazi Germany, but each generation of Jews, for over 2000 years suffered at the hands of non-Jews.
> 
> It was a regular thing.
> 
> The Holocaust that Germans conducted was a culmination of history, in a way. It should not be seen as a surprise.
> 
> The thing is, it should never happen again. And, the Jews will not lay down anymore.



Very True!!!

In reality I do wish my ancestors choose Christ or honestly forced to convert! I wish I could convince my wife to at least let our children choose Christ! Religion to me is baseless and illogical, so in reality why would anyone let it be a handicap!


----------



## DiveCon

GHook93 said:


> stonewall said:
> 
> 
> 
> I took an interest in this a long time ago. And, it really got my attention. Although I am not a Jew.
> 
> The Holocaust was an extreme event. But, every generation of Jews has had their "holocaust". Not as great as Nazi Germany, but each generation of Jews, for over 2000 years suffered at the hands of non-Jews.
> 
> It was a regular thing.
> 
> The Holocaust that Germans conducted was a culmination of history, in a way. It should not be seen as a surprise.
> 
> The thing is, it should never happen again. And, the Jews will not lay down anymore.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Very True!!!
> 
> In reality I do wish my ancestors choose Christ or honestly forced to convert! I wish I could convince my wife to at least let our children choose Christ! Religion to me is baseless and illogical, so in reality why would anyone let it be a handicap!
Click to expand...

um, who is stopping you from being an atheist?
if you dont believe, you dont have to be anything


----------



## Kalam

GHook93 said:


> stonewall said:
> 
> 
> 
> I took an interest in this a long time ago. And, it really got my attention. Although I am not a Jew.
> 
> The Holocaust was an extreme event. But, every generation of Jews has had their "holocaust". Not as great as Nazi Germany, but each generation of Jews, for over 2000 years suffered at the hands of non-Jews.
> 
> It was a regular thing.
> 
> The Holocaust that Germans conducted was a culmination of history, in a way. It should not be seen as a surprise.
> 
> The thing is, it should never happen again. And, the Jews will not lay down anymore.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Very True!!!
> 
> In reality I do wish my ancestors choose Christ or honestly forced to convert! I wish I could convince my wife to at least let our children choose Christ! Religion to me is baseless and illogical, so in reality why would anyone let it be a handicap!
Click to expand...


Why would you want to abandon your heritage and identity?


----------



## stonewall

GHook93 said:


> stonewall said:
> 
> 
> 
> I took an interest in this a long time ago. And, it really got my attention. Although I am not a Jew.
> 
> The Holocaust was an extreme event. But, every generation of Jews has had their "holocaust". Not as great as Nazi Germany, but each generation of Jews, for over 2000 years suffered at the hands of non-Jews.
> 
> It was a regular thing.
> 
> The Holocaust that Germans conducted was a culmination of history, in a way. It should not be seen as a surprise.
> 
> The thing is, it should never happen again. And, the Jews will not lay down anymore.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Very True!!!
> 
> In reality I do wish my ancestors choose Christ or honestly forced to convert! I wish I could convince my wife to at least let our children choose Christ! Religion to me is baseless and illogical, so in reality why would anyone let it be a handicap!
Click to expand...



I have nothing but admiration for Jews. Of all the ancient peoples they stand alone in having their country restored to them. Because they fought for it, never-ending. They never gave up. One thing I remember, they always celebrated the new year by saying "Next year in  Jerusalem". I think it was the New Year they repeated that, but it may be another holiday... whatever the case may be, they never gave up. They never gave in.

If I was Jewish I would be very proud that my ancestors never abandoned their God. Under any circumstances.

The Christians who were fed to the Lions, they never gave up. 

Life is not worth living if you have to give up what you believe and who you are.


----------



## AllieBaba

The holocaust happened because people allowed tyranny to establish a foothold, after being fooled by lies and rhetoric.

People turned a blind eye to anti-semitism, as they are doing today, in their ridiculous justification of the barbarism going on in Europe and the middle east.

The only difference today is that the barbarism is also directed against Christians as well, and it's world wide.

And you still turn a blind eye.


----------



## AllieBaba

http://www.adl.org/Public ADL Anti-Semitism Presentation February 2009 _3_.pdf


----------



## Sunni Man

stonewall said:


> GHook93 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> stonewall said:
> 
> 
> 
> I took an interest in this a long time ago. And, it really got my attention. Although I am not a Jew.
> 
> The Holocaust was an extreme event. But, every generation of Jews has had their "holocaust". Not as great as Nazi Germany, but each generation of Jews, for over 2000 years suffered at the hands of non-Jews.
> 
> It was a regular thing.
> 
> The Holocaust that Germans conducted was a culmination of history, in a way. It should not be seen as a surprise.
> 
> The thing is, it should never happen again. And, the Jews will not lay down anymore.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Very True!!!
> 
> In reality I do wish my ancestors choose Christ or honestly forced to convert! I wish I could convince my wife to at least let our children choose Christ! Religion to me is baseless and illogical, so in reality why would anyone let it be a handicap!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> I have nothing but admiration for Jews. Of all the ancient peoples they stand alone in having their country restored to them. Because they fought for it, never-ending. They never gave up. One thing I remember, they always celebrated the new year by saying "Next year in  Jerusalem". I think it was the New Year they repeated that, but it may be another holiday... whatever the case may be, they never gave up. They never gave in.
> 
> If I was Jewish I would be very proud that my ancestors never abandoned their God. Under any circumstances.
> 
> The Christians who were fed to the Lions, they never gave up.
> 
> Life is not worth living if you have to give up what you believe and who you are.
Click to expand...


Then you must also admire the Palestinans who for 60 years have never given up in try to recover their stolen land.

Or the muslims all over the world who who fight against oppression and injustice for their people and religion.


----------



## AllieBaba

Pfft.


----------



## Yukon

The Palistinians are a brave people. They have had their homeland taken from them by the Zionist hordes, supported by the ZOG of the USA. The Palistinians will fight on and are now supported by the brave Iranian people. Israel shall be defeated; there can be no doubt of this fact. Long live the PLO, long may the memory of Arafat live.


----------



## Liability

Yukon said:


> The Palistinians are a brave people. They have had their homeland taken from them by the Zionist hordes, supported by the ZOG of the USA. The Palistinians will fight on and are now supported by the brave Iranian people. Israel shall be defeated; there can be no doubt of this fact. Long live the PLO, long may the memory of Arafat live.



The "memory" of the rancid ratlicking scumbag pigfucker Arafat does live on.  It lives on whenever any of us take a big ol' smelly shit.


----------



## ABikerSailor

Yukon said:


> The Palistinians are a brave people. They have had their homeland taken from them by the Zionist hordes, supported by the ZOG of the USA. The Palistinians will fight on and are now supported by the brave Iranian people. Israel shall be defeated; there can be no doubt of this fact. Long live the PLO, long may the memory of Arafat live.



Yeah.....tell me how brave they are.........firing rockets into Israel from Gaza, and using schools and children as human shields.

Takes a real brave fucker to hide behind children.


----------



## mdn2000

Yukon said:


> The picture posted depicts dead people and it is FALSE. The Jews have been fabricating similar photographic evidence for years. It's all lies. There was NO, repeat NO mass extermination of people before or during WW II by the German people or representatives of the German people.



Canada, its unfortunate Canada has idiots. Like the Canadian leaders that gave us the Rwanda genocide.

Plus their health care system is not as good as ours, they got good doctors sure, but if you have an emergency in Toronto be prepared to recover in a hallway, thats what happened to my co-worker when she had a stroke while in Ontario, she never got a room.


----------



## GHook93

DiveCon said:


> GHook93 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> stonewall said:
> 
> 
> 
> I took an interest in this a long time ago. And, it really got my attention. Although I am not a Jew.
> 
> The Holocaust was an extreme event. But, every generation of Jews has had their "holocaust". Not as great as Nazi Germany, but each generation of Jews, for over 2000 years suffered at the hands of non-Jews.
> 
> It was a regular thing.
> 
> The Holocaust that Germans conducted was a culmination of history, in a way. It should not be seen as a surprise.
> 
> The thing is, it should never happen again. And, the Jews will not lay down anymore.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Very True!!!
> 
> In reality I do wish my ancestors choose Christ or honestly forced to convert! I wish I could convince my wife to at least let our children choose Christ! Religion to me is baseless and illogical, so in reality why would anyone let it be a handicap!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> um, who is stopping you from being an atheist?
> if you dont believe, you dont have to be anything
Click to expand...

I do profess to atheism, but would that have prevented Hitler from killing me and my family or Stalin form enacting a pogram against me, the KKK from persecuting and accepting me (granted I converted to Christianity in that case)? Nope!

I remain the stigma of a Jew as long as my children do! If or when they abandon it (all of them) then I do also!


----------



## GHook93

Kalam said:


> GHook93 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> stonewall said:
> 
> 
> 
> I took an interest in this a long time ago. And, it really got my attention. Although I am not a Jew.
> 
> The Holocaust was an extreme event. But, every generation of Jews has had their "holocaust". Not as great as Nazi Germany, but each generation of Jews, for over 2000 years suffered at the hands of non-Jews.
> 
> It was a regular thing.
> 
> The Holocaust that Germans conducted was a culmination of history, in a way. It should not be seen as a surprise.
> 
> The thing is, it should never happen again. And, the Jews will not lay down anymore.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Very True!!!
> 
> In reality I do wish my ancestors choose Christ or honestly forced to convert! I wish I could convince my wife to at least let our children choose Christ! Religion to me is baseless and illogical, so in reality why would anyone let it be a handicap!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Why would you want to abandon your heritage and identity?
Click to expand...


The stigma of Jews outside of America and in certain parts of America is really not worth it, especially since I don't see the logic in a believing in a higher power!

I do however like the ethic of modern Evangelical Christianity (all accept their non-acceptance of homosexuality which is troubling to me)! Yes I think many of their beliefs are illogical and stupid, but most Evangelicals Christians I have met are some of the most charitable, ethical and kind-hearted people out there!


----------



## Emma

I don't have time to read through the whole thread, so if this was posted already, I apologize. 

Milton Mayer: They Thought They Were Free

Excellent book. Chilling...

(excerpt, as posted online by the publisher):

But Then It Was Too Late

"What no one seemed to notice," said a colleague of mine, a philologist, "was the ever widening gap, after 1933, between the government and the people. Just think how very wide this gap was to begin with, here in Germany. And it became always wider. You know, it doesn&#8217;t make people close to their government to be told that this is a people&#8217;s government, a true democracy, or to be enrolled in civilian defense, or even to vote. All this has little, really nothing, to do with knowing one is governing.

"What happened here was the gradual habituation of the people, little by little, to being governed by surprise; to receiving decisions deliberated in secret; to believing that the situation was so complicated that the government had to act on information which the people could not understand, or so dangerous that, even if the people could not understand it, it could not be released because of national security. And their sense of identification with Hitler, their trust in him, made it easier to widen this gap and reassured those who would otherwise have worried about it.

"This separation of government from people, this widening of the gap, took place so gradually and so insensibly, each step disguised (perhaps not even intentionally) as a temporary emergency measure or associated with true patriotic allegiance or with real social purposes. And all the crises and reforms (real reforms, too) so occupied the people that they did not see the slow motion underneath, of the whole process of government growing remoter and remoter.

"You will understand me when I say that my Middle High German was my life. It was all I cared about. I was a scholar, a specialist. Then, suddenly, I was plunged into all the new activity, as the university was drawn into the new situation; meetings, conferences, interviews, ceremonies, and, above all, papers to be filled out, reports, bibliographies, lists, questionnaires. And on top of that were the demands in the community, the things in which one had to, was &#8216;expected to&#8217; participate that had not been there or had not been important before. It was all rigmarole, of course, but it consumed all one&#8217;s energies, coming on top of the work one really wanted to do. You can see how easy it was, then, not to think about fundamental things. One had no time."

"Those," I said, "are the words of my friend the baker. &#8216;One had no time to think. There was so much going on.&#8217;"

"Your friend the baker was right," said my colleague. "The dictatorship, and the whole process of its coming into being, was above all diverting. It provided an excuse not to think for people who did not want to think anyway. I do not speak of your &#8216;little men,&#8217; your baker and so on; I speak of my colleagues and myself, learned men, mind you. Most of us did not want to think about fundamental things and never had. There was no need to. Nazism gave us some dreadful, fundamental things to think about&#8212;we were decent people&#8212;and kept us so busy with continuous changes and &#8216;crises&#8217; and so fascinated, yes, fascinated, by the machinations of the &#8216;national enemies,&#8217; without and within, that we had no time to think about these dreadful things that were growing, little by little, all around us. Unconsciously, I suppose, we were grateful. Who wants to think?

"To live in this process is absolutely not to be able to notice it&#8212;please try to believe me&#8212;unless one has a much greater degree of political awareness, acuity, than most of us had ever had occasion to develop. Each step was so small, so inconsequential, so well explained or, on occasion, &#8216;regretted,&#8217; that, unless one were detached from the whole process from the beginning, unless one understood what the whole thing was in principle, what all these &#8216;little measures&#8217; that no &#8216;patriotic German&#8217; could resent must some day lead to, one no more saw it developing from day to day than a farmer in his field sees the corn growing. One day it is over his head.

"How is this to be avoided, among ordinary men, even highly educated ordinary men? Frankly, I do not know. I do not see, even now. Many, many times since it all happened I have pondered that pair of great maxims, Principiis obsta and Finem respice&#8212;&#8216;Resist the beginnings&#8217; and &#8216;Consider the end.&#8217; But one must foresee the end in order to resist, or even see, the beginnings. One must foresee the end clearly and certainly and how is this to be done, by ordinary men or even by extraordinary men? Things might have. And everyone counts on that might.

"Your &#8216;little men,&#8217; your Nazi friends, were not against National Socialism in principle. Men like me, who were, are the greater offenders, not because we knew better (that would be too much to say) but because we sensed better. Pastor Niemöller spoke for the thousands and thousands of men like me when he spoke (too modestly of himself) and said that, when the Nazis attacked the Communists, he was a little uneasy, but, after all, he was not a Communist, and so he did nothing; and then they attacked the Socialists, and he was a little uneasier, but, still, he was not a Socialist, and he did nothing; and then the schools, the press, the Jews, and so on, and he was always uneasier, but still he did nothing. And then they attacked the Church, and he was a Churchman, and he did something&#8212;but then it was too late."

"Yes," I said.

"You see," my colleague went on, "one doesn&#8217;t see exactly where or how to move. Believe me, this is true. Each act, each occasion, is worse than the last, but only a little worse. You wait for the next and the next. You wait for one great shocking occasion, thinking that others, when such a shock comes, will join with you in resisting somehow. You don&#8217;t want to act, or even talk, alone; you don&#8217;t want to &#8216;go out of your way to make trouble.&#8217; Why not?&#8212;Well, you are not in the habit of doing it. And it is not just fear, fear of standing alone, that restrains you; it is also genuine uncertainty.

"Uncertainty is a very important factor, and, instead of decreasing as time goes on, it grows. Outside, in the streets, in the general community, &#8216;everyone&#8217; is happy. One hears no protest, and certainly sees none. You know, in France or Italy there would be slogans against the government painted on walls and fences; in Germany, outside the great cities, perhaps, there is not even this. In the university community, in your own community, you speak privately to your colleagues, some of whom certainly feel as you do; but what do they say? They say, &#8216;It&#8217;s not so bad&#8217; or &#8216;You&#8217;re seeing things&#8217; or &#8216;You&#8217;re an alarmist.&#8217;

"And you are an alarmist. You are saying that this must lead to this, and you can&#8217;t prove it. These are the beginnings, yes; but how do you know for sure when you don&#8217;t know the end, and how do you know, or even surmise, the end? On the one hand, your enemies, the law, the regime, the Party, intimidate you. On the other, your colleagues pooh-pooh you as pessimistic or even neurotic. You are left with your close friends, who are, naturally, people who have always thought as you have.

"But your friends are fewer now. Some have drifted off somewhere or submerged themselves in their work. You no longer see as many as you did at meetings or gatherings. Informal groups become smaller; attendance drops off in little organizations, and the organizations themselves wither. Now, in small gatherings of your oldest friends, you feel that you are talking to yourselves, that you are isolated from the reality of things. This weakens your confidence still further and serves as a further deterrent to&#8212;to what? It is clearer all the time that, if you are going to do anything, you must make an occasion to do it, and then you are obviously a troublemaker. So you wait, and you wait.

"But the one great shocking occasion, when tens or hundreds or thousands will join with you, never comes. That&#8217;s the difficulty. If the last and worst act of the whole regime had come immediately after the first and smallest, thousands, yes, millions would have been sufficiently shocked&#8212;if, let us say, the gassing of the Jews in &#8217;43 had come immediately after the &#8216;German Firm&#8217; stickers on the windows of non-Jewish shops in &#8217;33. But of course this isn&#8217;t the way it happens. In between come all the hundreds of little steps, some of them imperceptible, each of them preparing you not to be shocked by the next. Step C is not so much worse than Step B, and, if you did not make a stand at Step B, why should you at Step C? And so on to Step D.

"And one day, too late, your principles, if you were ever sensible of them, all rush in upon you. The burden of self-deception has grown too heavy, and some minor incident, in my case my little boy, hardly more than a baby, saying &#8216;Jewish swine,&#8217; collapses it all at once, and you see that everything, everything, has changed and changed completely under your nose. The world you live in&#8212;your nation, your people&#8212;is not the world you were born in at all. The forms are all there, all untouched, all reassuring, the houses, the shops, the jobs, the mealtimes, the visits, the concerts, the cinema, the holidays. But the spirit, which you never noticed because you made the lifelong mistake of identifying it with the forms, is changed. Now you live in a world of hate and fear, and the people who hate and fear do not even know it themselves; when everyone is transformed, no one is transformed. Now you live in a system which rules without responsibility even to God. The system itself could not have intended this in the beginning, but in order to sustain itself it was compelled to go all the way.

"You have gone almost all the way yourself. Life is a continuing process, a flow, not a succession of acts and events at all. It has flowed to a new level, carrying you with it, without any effort on your part. On this new level you live, you have been living more comfortably every day, with new morals, new principles. You have accepted things you would not have accepted five years ago, a year ago, things that your father, even in Germany, could not have imagined.

"Suddenly it all comes down, all at once. You see what you are, what you have done, or, more accurately, what you haven&#8217;t done (for that was all that was required of most of us: that we do nothing). You remember those early meetings of your department in the university when, if one had stood, others would have stood, perhaps, but no one stood. A small matter, a matter of hiring this man or that, and you hired this one rather than that. You remember everything now, and your heart breaks. Too late. You are compromised beyond repair.

"What then? You must then shoot yourself. A few did. Or &#8216;adjust&#8217; your principles. Many tried, and some, I suppose, succeeded; not I, however. Or learn to live the rest of your life with your shame. This last is the nearest there is, under the circumstances, to heroism: shame. Many Germans became this poor kind of hero, many more, I think, than the world knows or cares to know."

I said nothing. I thought of nothing to say.

"I can tell you," my colleague went on, "of a man in Leipzig, a judge. He was not a Nazi, except nominally, but he certainly wasn&#8217;t an anti-Nazi. He was just&#8212;a judge. In &#8217;42 or &#8217;43, early &#8217;43, I think it was, a Jew was tried before him in a case involving, but only incidentally, relations with an &#8216;Aryan&#8217; woman. This was &#8216;race injury,&#8217; something the Party was especially anxious to punish. In the case at bar, however, the judge had the power to convict the man of a &#8216;nonracial&#8217; offense and send him to an ordinary prison for a very long term, thus saving him from Party &#8216;processing&#8217; which would have meant concentration camp or, more probably, deportation and death. But the man was innocent of the &#8216;nonracial&#8217; charge, in the judge&#8217;s opinion, and so, as an honorable judge, he acquitted him. Of course, the Party seized the Jew as soon as he left the courtroom."

"And the judge?"

"Yes, the judge. He could not get the case off his conscience&#8212;a case, mind you, in which he had acquitted an innocent man. He thought that he should have convicted him and saved him from the Party, but how could he have convicted an innocent man? The thing preyed on him more and more, and he had to talk about it, first to his family, then to his friends, and then to acquaintances. (That&#8217;s how I heard about it.) After the &#8217;44 Putsch they arrested him. After that, I don&#8217;t know."

I said nothing.

"Once the war began," my colleague continued, "resistance, protest, criticism, complaint, all carried with them a multiplied likelihood of the greatest punishment. Mere lack of enthusiasm, or failure to show it in public, was &#8216;defeatism.&#8217; You assumed that there were lists of those who would be &#8216;dealt with&#8217; later, after the victory. Goebbels was very clever here, too. He continually promised a &#8216;victory orgy&#8217; to &#8216;take care of&#8217; those who thought that their &#8216;treasonable attitude&#8217; had escaped notice. And he meant it; that was not just propaganda. And that was enough to put an end to all uncertainty.

"Once the war began, the government could do anything &#8216;necessary&#8217; to win it; so it was with the &#8216;final solution of the Jewish problem,&#8217; which the Nazis always talked about but never dared undertake, not even the Nazis, until war and its &#8216;necessities&#8217; gave them the knowledge that they could get away with it. The people abroad who thought that war against Hitler would help the Jews were wrong. And the people in Germany who, once the war had begun, still thought of complaining, protesting, resisting, were betting on Germany&#8217;s losing the war. It was a long bet. Not many made it."


[ame]http://www.amazon.com/They-Thought-Were-Free-Germans/dp/0226511928/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1254476990&sr=8-1[/ame]


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## mdn2000

Sunni Man said:


> stonewall said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> GHook93 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Very True!!!
> 
> In reality I do wish my ancestors choose Christ or honestly forced to convert! I wish I could convince my wife to at least let our children choose Christ! Religion to me is baseless and illogical, so in reality why would anyone let it be a handicap!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I have nothing but admiration for Jews. Of all the ancient peoples they stand alone in having their country restored to them. Because they fought for it, never-ending. They never gave up. One thing I remember, they always celebrated the new year by saying "Next year in  Jerusalem". I think it was the New Year they repeated that, but it may be another holiday... whatever the case may be, they never gave up. They never gave in.
> 
> If I was Jewish I would be very proud that my ancestors never abandoned their God. Under any circumstances.
> 
> The Christians who were fed to the Lions, they never gave up.
> 
> Life is not worth living if you have to give up what you believe and who you are.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Then you must also admire the Palestinans who for 60 years have never given up in try to recover their stolen land.
> 
> Or the muslims all over the world who who fight against oppression and injustice for their people and religion.
Click to expand...



The Palestinians you consistently reference are Moslem Arabs. The land you claim is stolen was sold by the Arabs/Palestinians to the Jews, at least prior to 1947. There is nothing to be admired by the political leaders of the Arabs in Palestine. They use children as cannon fodder, very cowardly and just plain sickening. Further what is relevant to the holocaust is the Palestinian Leaders sided with Germany during WW II..

The holocaust was as Stonewall stated, a culimination of history. One must look at the history of the 1800's, it is very possible that the holocaust would of happened without Hitler but to speculate about what may of happened is dumb.

What is known is the people of Germany where no brainwashed and of those who participated in the holocaust the majority of ordinary german citizens did so willingly, many with much enthusiasm.

I think we can see similiarities in people today. Take so many on these boards, blind ignorance in regards to history, hatred of the right, stereotyping all on the right, vicious demonizing, and lots of bigotry. A parrel to the people of Germany who killed the jews and so many others.


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## Sunni Man

*109 Locations where Jews have been Expelled since  250 A.D.*

                      YEAR . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . PLACE

                          250 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -  Carthage
                          415 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -  Alexandria
                          554 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -  Diocese of Clement (France)
                          561 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -  Diocese of Uzzes (France)
                          612 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -  Visigoth Spain
                          642 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -  Visigoth Empire
                          855 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -  Italy
                          876 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -  Sens
                        1012 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Mainz
                        1182 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - France
                        1182 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Germany
                        1276 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Upper Bavaria
                        1290 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - England
                        1306 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - France
                        1322 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - France (again)
                        1348 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Switzerland
                        1349 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Hielbronn (Germany)
                        1349 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Saxony
                        1349 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Hungary
                        1360 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Hungary
                        1370 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Belgium
                        1380 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Slovakia
                        1388 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Strasbourg
                        1394 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Germany
                        1394 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - France
                        1420 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Lyons
                        1421 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Austria
                        1424 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Fribourg
                        1424 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Zurich
                        1424 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Cologne
                        1432 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Savoy
                        1438 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Mainz
                        1439 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Augsburg
                        1442 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Netherlands
                        1444 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Netherlands
                        1446 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Bavaria
                        1453 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - France
                        1453 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Breslau
                        1454 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Wurzburg
                        1462 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Mainz
                        1483 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Mainz
                        1484 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Warsaw
                        1485 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Vincenza (Italy)
                        1492 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Spain
                        1492 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Italy
                        1495 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Lithuania
                        1496 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Naples
                        1496 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Portugal
                        1498 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Nuremberg
                        1498 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Navarre
                        1510 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Brandenberg
                        1510 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Prussia
                        1514 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Strasbourg
                        1515 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Genoa
                        1519 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Regensburg
                        1533 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Naples
                        1541 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Naples
                        1542 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Prague & Bohemia
                        1550 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Genoa
                        1551 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Bavaria
                        1555 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Pesaro
                        1557 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Prague
                        1559 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Austria
                        1561 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Prague
                        1567 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Wurzburg
                        1569 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Papal States
                        1571 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Brandenburg
                        1582 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Netherlands
                        1582 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Hungary
                        1593 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Brandenburg, Austria
                        1597 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Cremona, Pavia & Lodi
                        1614 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Frankfort
                        1615 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Worms
                        1619 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Kiev
                        1648 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Ukraine
                        1648 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Poland
                        1649 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Hamburg
                        1654 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Little Russia (Beylorus)
                        1656 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Lithuania
                        1669 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Oran (North Africa)
                        1669 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Vienna
                        1670 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Vienna
                        1712 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Sandomir
                        1727 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Russia
                        1738 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Wurtemburg
                        1740 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Little Russia (Beylorus)
                        1744 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Prague, Bohemia
                        1744 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Slovakia
                        1744 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Livonia
                        1745 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Moravia
                        1753 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Kovad (Lithuania)
                        1761 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Bordeaux
                        1772 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Deported to the Pale of Settlement (Poland/Russia)
                        1775 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Warsaw
                        1789 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Alsace
                        1804 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Villages in Russia
                        1808 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Villages & Countrysides (Russia)
                        1815 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Lbeck & Bremen
                        1815 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Franconia, Swabia & Bavaria
                        1820 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Bremen
                        1843 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Russian Border Austria & Prussia
                        1862 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Areas in the U.S. under General Grant's Jurisdiction
                        1866 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Galatz, Romania
                        1880s - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Russia
                        1891 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Moscow
                        1919 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Bavaria (foreign born Jews)
                        1938-45 - - - - - - - - - - - - - -  Nazi Controlled Areas
                        1948 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Arab Countries


----------



## Yukon

The Jew has been a problen since the time of Christ (they were responsible for His murder too). Eventually the world will be free of them and peace will reign.


----------



## Sunni Man

As anyone can see by my list of 109 locations where jews have been kick out.

They have be driven out of various nations and societies by people of all different cultures throughout history.

Why is this?

Every where they live, people eventually rise up and drive them out.

What behavior do they exibit that causes such animosity?


----------



## Yukon

Sunni,

The Jew is, by nature, dishonest. They can't help it because the dishonesty is genetic. Remember that it was the Jew who traded Jesus for 30 pieces of silver, the Jew who used the Church as a money lending place, the Jew who turned Jesus over to the omans to be killed. What else can they expect.....


----------



## JakeStarkey

If what you Jew haters say is true, then are you not thrilled that they are 'segregated' in their own country?


----------



## Sunni Man

I don't believe that anti-semitism can answer the question of why jews have been continually expelled fron dozens and dozens of countries.

There has to be a particular behavior or something else, that causes people to resort drastic measures against the Jews.


----------



## REVxERIK

you notice how this yukon dickwad bronght most everyone who hates each other together against him?


----------



## Sunni Man

Even General Grant during the Civil War ordered the banning of Jews from his area of operations:


#1) On December 17, 1862, General Ulysses Grant wrote to the Assistant Adjutant General of the US Army:

"I have long since believed that in spite of all the vigilance that can be infused into post commanders, the specie regulations of the Treasury Department have been violated, and that mostly by the Jews and other unprincipled traders. So well satisfied have I been of this that I instructed the commanding officer at Columbus to refuse all permits to Jews to come South, and I have frequently had them expelled from the department. But they come in with their carpet-sacks in spite of all that can be done to prevent it. The Jews seem to be a privileged class that can travel anywhere. They will land at any woodyard on the river and make their way through the country. If not permitted to buy cotton themselves, they will act as agents for someone else, who will be at a military post with a Treasury permit to receive cotton and pay for it in Treasury notes which the Jew will buy at an agreed rate, paying gold."

Also, on December 17, 1862, General Ulysses S. Grant issued General Orders No. 11. This order banished all Jews from Tennessee's western military.

General Orders No. 11 declared: "1. The Jews, as a class, violating every regulation of trade established by the Treasury Department, are hereby expelled from the Department. 

#2) Within 24 hours from the receipt of this order by Post Commanders, they will see that all of this class of people are furnished with passes required to leave, and anyone returning after such notification, will be arrested and held in confinement until an opportunity occurs of sending them out as prisoners, unless furnished with permits from these headquarters. 

#3) No permits will be given these people (jews)  to visit headquarters for the purpose of making personal application for trade permits. 

"By order of Major Gen. Grant.


"Jno. A. Rawlings, 
Assistant Adjutant General"


----------



## ABikerSailor

Yukon said:


> Sunni,
> 
> The Jew is, by nature, dishonest. They can't help it because the dishonesty is genetic. Remember that it was the Jew who traded Jesus for 30 pieces of silver, the Jew who used the Church as a money lending place, the Jew who turned Jesus over to the omans to be killed. What else can they expect.....



Question ya fucking 'tard, you DO realize that Jesus was Jewish as well, right?  So, if Jesus was Jewish, does that mean that Jesus was dishonest as well?  You stated that dishonesty is genetic for Jews, and well..........like I said........Jesus was Jewish.

For a supposed priest, you sure as fuck don't know very much ya perverted pedophile priest.


----------



## Yukon

GAYBIKER,

Allow me to enlightened your simplistic mind with some historical facts pertaining to our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ:

During His lifetime, no persons were described as "Jews" anywhere. That fact is supported by theology, history and science. When Jesus was in Judea, it was not the "homeland" of the ancestors of those who today style themselves "Jews". Their ancestors never set a foot in Judea. They existed at that time in Asia, their "homeland", and were known as Khazars. In none of the manuscripts of the original Old or New Testament was Jesus described or referred to as a "Jew". The term originated in the late eighteenth century as an abbreviation of the term Judean and refers to a resident of Judea without regard to race or religion, just as the term "Texan" signifies a person living in Texas.

In spite of the powerful propaganda effort of the so-called "Jews", they have been unable to prove in recorded history that there is one record, prior to that period, of a race religion or nationality, referred to as "Jew". The religious sect in Judea, in the time of Jesus, to which self-styled "Jews" today refer to as "Jews", were known as "Pharisees". "Judaism" today and "Pharisaism" in the time of Jesus are the same.

*Jesus abhorred and denounced Pharisaism (Jews); hence the words, "Woe unto you Scribes and Pharisees, Hypocrites, Ye Serpents, Ye Generation of Vipers".*


GayBiker, in future please at least attempt to get your facts staright before launching into one of your pro-jewish inpired rants about things you are completely ignorant of. 

As a former Priest of the Roman Catholic Church I am without a doubt the most qualified person here at USMB to comment on issues of a theological nature. You, on the other hand, are not qualified to comment effectively on anything other than the latest B-Ball and Football scores (and you probably would get them wrong too).

Fr. Yukon


----------



## ABikerSailor

Yukon said:


> GAYBIKER,
> 
> Allow me to enlightened your simplistic mind with some historical facts pertaining to our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ:
> 
> During His lifetime, no persons were described as "Jews" anywhere. That fact is supported by theology, history and science. When Jesus was in Judea, it was not the "homeland" of the ancestors of those who today style themselves "Jews". Their ancestors never set a foot in Judea. They existed at that time in Asia, their "homeland", and were known as Khazars. In none of the manuscripts of the original Old or New Testament was Jesus described or referred to as a "Jew". The term originated in the late eighteenth century as an abbreviation of the term Judean and refers to a resident of Judea without regard to race or religion, just as the term "Texan" signifies a person living in Texas.
> 
> In spite of the powerful propaganda effort of the so-called "Jews", they have been unable to prove in recorded history that there is one record, prior to that period, of a race religion or nationality, referred to as "Jew". The religious sect in Judea, in the time of Jesus, to which self-styled "Jews" today refer to as "Jews", were known as "Pharisees". "Judaism" today and "Pharisaism" in the time of Jesus are the same.
> 
> *Jesus abhorred and denounced Pharisaism (Jews); hence the words, "Woe unto you Scribes and Pharisees, Hypocrites, Ye Serpents, Ye Generation of Vipers".*
> 
> 
> GayBiker, in future please at least attempt to get your facts staright before launching into one of your pro-jewish inpired rants about things you are completely ignorant of.
> 
> As a former Priest of the Roman Catholic Church I am without a doubt the most qualified person here at USMB to comment on issues of a theological nature. You, on the other hand, are not qualified to comment effectively on anything other than the latest B-Ball and Football scores (and you probably would get them wrong too).
> 
> Fr. Yukon



During history, no persons were known as "Jews"?  Well, then, can you please explain WHY (in the NT incidentally), Yeshua was actually called "King of the Jews"?  Rome was the very people that put it on His cross!

Incidentally, Abraham is known as the Father of the Jews.  It was because of Abraham's actions in discovering who God really was that the Hebrew people were given the Torah on  Mt. Sinai.  

So......fail on that point.

As far as speaking out against the Pharisees?  Well......that is also another interesting point as far as that, they weren't so much the whole Jewish people, as they were a SECT of Judaism.  Here.......



> The word Pharisees (lat. pharisæ|us, -i) comes from the Hebrew &#1508;&#1512;&#1493;&#1513;&#1497;&#1501; perushim from &#1508;&#1512;&#1493;&#1513; parush, meaning "set apart" [1]. The Pharisees were, depending on the time, a political party, a social movement, and a school of thought among Jews that flourished during the Second Temple Era (536 BCE70 CE). After the destruction of the Second Temple, the Pharisaic sect was re-established as Rabbinic Judaism  which ultimately produced normative, traditional Judaism, the basis for all contemporary forms of Judaism, with the exception of the Karaites.



Pharisees - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

So......what actually happened was Yeshua was speaking out against one splinter sect of Judaism, not all of it.

Epic fail.......yet again........

As far as you being the most qualified to speak out about religion on USMB?  Not really.....you see.......your particular religion is a mish mash of pagan beliefs and Judaic theology.  How else do you explain Easter taking place on the Spring Solstice (which incidentally is the reason for the sunrise services), instead of after Passover (a Jewish holiday that Yeshua showed up in Jerusalem to celebrate, as He is a good Jewish boy), or the fact that Yeshua was actually born in October rather than December 25th (which incidentally, happens to coincide with the Winter Solstice)?

I hardly think that being a defrocked pedophile priest qualifies you for anything other than douchebag status.

Maybe sperm mopper in a porno theater.


----------



## Yukon

GayBiker,

You are indeed a fool of the greatest proportion, uneducated, and ignorant of the facts. I will make no further attempt to enlighten you for you are intellecually incapable of grasping historical fact. Go, play with your PlayStation. Have fun................


----------



## ABikerSailor

Yukon said:


> GayBiker,
> 
> You are indeed a fool of the greatest proportion, uneducated, and ignorant of the facts. I will make no further attempt to enlighten you for you are intellecually incapable of grasping historical fact. Go, play with your PlayStation. Have fun................



So.......in other words.......you cannot refute anything that I posted in my last post, even though you (claim) to be a Catholic priest (although, I think you were in America, but got shipped up to Canada, because the church has you in their priestly witness protection program.  You know......the one where they move pedophile asses like yourself from church to church to keep them from getting sued?

Refute the statement that Yeshua wasn't Jewish.  Refute the fact that Yeshua was CALLED "King of the Jews" by both Israel AND Rome (although, it was done mockingly).

Try again fuckstick.......you've just been pwned.


----------



## Yukon

I refuse to respond to social retards who can not phrase a sentence without resorting to foul, abusive, and profane language. I'm fed up with this and will be forced to file a complaint with the Moderaotors if it continues.


----------



## DiveCon

Yukon said:


> I refuse to respond to social retards who can not phrase a sentence without resorting to foul, abusive, and profane language. I'm fed up with this and will be forced to file a complaint with the Moderaotors if it continues.


file your complaint, fucktard


----------



## ABikerSailor

Yukon said:


> I refuse to respond to social retards who can not phrase a sentence without resorting to foul, abusive, and profane language. I'm fed up with this and will be forced to file a complaint with the Moderaotors if it continues.



Go ahead you lowborn Canadian gutter slut.  Better yet......go back to the Catholic church and start atoning for all the little altar boys that you've defiled over your lifetime.

Fuck off ya goddamn pedant, go please purists ya pillow biting douchebag, you're just as guilty as the rest of us about cussing.

Clean the sand outta your pussy and then come back.

Asshole.


----------



## REVxERIK

Yukon said:


> I refuse to respond to social retards who can not phrase a sentence without resorting to foul, abusive, and profane language. I'm fed up with this and will be forced to file a complaint with the Moderaotors if it continues.



file it. i garuntee your anti-sematic rhetoric will be reported along with it.
cry baby


----------



## DiveCon

REVxERIK said:


> Yukon said:
> 
> 
> 
> I refuse to respond to social retards who can not phrase a sentence without resorting to foul, abusive, and profane language. I'm fed up with this and will be forced to file a complaint with the Moderaotors if it continues.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> file it. i garuntee your anti-sematic rhetoric will be reported along with it.
> cry baby
Click to expand...

i told him to "file it" because i know Gunny and the mods would love to have a good laugh

nothing anyone is doing to him violate the rules, so it would just be a good laugh


----------



## REVxERIK

DiveCon said:


> REVxERIK said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yukon said:
> 
> 
> 
> I refuse to respond to social retards who can not phrase a sentence without resorting to foul, abusive, and profane language. I'm fed up with this and will be forced to file a complaint with the Moderaotors if it continues.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> file it. i garuntee your anti-sematic rhetoric will be reported along with it.
> cry baby
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> i told him to "file it" because i know Gunny and the mods would love to have a good laugh
> 
> nothing anyone is doing to him violate the rules, so it would just be a good laugh
Click to expand...


you may be laughing but i'm appalled and angry


----------



## DiveCon

REVxERIK said:


> DiveCon said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> REVxERIK said:
> 
> 
> 
> file it. i garuntee your anti-sematic rhetoric will be reported along with it.
> cry baby
> 
> 
> 
> i told him to "file it" because i know Gunny and the mods would love to have a good laugh
> 
> nothing anyone is doing to him violate the rules, so it would just be a good laugh
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> you may be laughing but i'm appalled and angry
Click to expand...

laughing at the thought of him reporting someone for cussing
and, you need to lighten up, because being a flaming antisemite is not a violation of the rules here either
but, you are as free as the rest of us to call them the fucktards they are


----------



## Ringel05

REVxERIK said:


> DiveCon said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> REVxERIK said:
> 
> 
> 
> file it. i garuntee your anti-sematic rhetoric will be reported along with it.
> cry baby
> 
> 
> 
> i told him to "file it" because i know Gunny and the mods would love to have a good laugh
> 
> nothing anyone is doing to him violate the rules, so it would just be a good laugh
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> you may be laughing but i'm appalled and angry
Click to expand...


Why?


----------



## REVxERIK

Ringel05 said:


> REVxERIK said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> DiveCon said:
> 
> 
> 
> i told him to "file it" because i know Gunny and the mods would love to have a good laugh
> 
> nothing anyone is doing to him violate the rules, so it would just be a good laugh
> 
> 
> 
> 
> you may be laughing but i'm appalled and angry
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Why?
Click to expand...


the blatant hatred and accusations


----------



## REVxERIK

DiveCon said:


> REVxERIK said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> DiveCon said:
> 
> 
> 
> i told him to "file it" because i know Gunny and the mods would love to have a good laugh
> 
> nothing anyone is doing to him violate the rules, so it would just be a good laugh
> 
> 
> 
> 
> you may be laughing but i'm appalled and angry
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> laughing at the thought of him reporting someone for cussing
> and, you need to lighten up, because being a flaming antisemite is not a violation of the rules here either
> but, you are as free as the rest of us to call them the fucktards they are
Click to expand...


i'm not saying anything about the rules of the board, but as far as the rules of being a decent human, that's why i'm appalled and angry.


----------



## Liability

Yukon said:


> I refuse to respond to social retards who can not phrase a sentence without resorting to foul, abusive, and profane language. I'm fed up with this and will be forced to file a complaint with the Moderaotors if it continues.



Yukon, you fucking jack-off scumbag motherfucking cocksucking asslicking pedophiliac, go suck off a syphlitic  goat's cock  and choke on its jism.


----------



## REVxERIK

Liability said:


> Yukon said:
> 
> 
> 
> I refuse to respond to social retards who can not phrase a sentence without resorting to foul, abusive, and profane language. I'm fed up with this and will be forced to file a complaint with the Moderaotors if it continues.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yukon, you fucking jack-off scumbag motherfucking cocksucking asslicking pedophiliac, go suck off a syphlitic  goat's cock  and choke on its jism.
Click to expand...


----------



## DiveCon

REVxERIK said:


> Liability said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yukon said:
> 
> 
> 
> I refuse to respond to social retards who can not phrase a sentence without resorting to foul, abusive, and profane language. I'm fed up with this and will be forced to file a complaint with the Moderaotors if it continues.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yukon, you fucking jack-off scumbag motherfucking cocksucking asslicking pedophiliac, go suck off a syphlitic  goat's cock  and choke on its jism.
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...

see???


----------



## Ringel05

REVxERIK said:


> Ringel05 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> REVxERIK said:
> 
> 
> 
> you may be laughing but i'm appalled and angry
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Why?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> the blatant hatred and accusations
Click to expand...


So.  Why let it bother you?  If you get upset he wins.  That said I ask again, why?


----------



## nolesrock

quit flaming each other and come get an education about what the Holocaust was really like...follow the link in my sig line


----------



## The Rabbi

GHook93 said:


> Kalam said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> GHook93 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Very True!!!
> 
> In reality I do wish my ancestors choose Christ or honestly forced to convert! I wish I could convince my wife to at least let our children choose Christ! Religion to me is baseless and illogical, so in reality why would anyone let it be a handicap!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Why would you want to abandon your heritage and identity?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The stigma of Jews outside of America and in certain parts of America is really not worth it, especially since I don't see the logic in a believing in a higher power!
> 
> I do however like the ethic of modern Evangelical Christianity (all accept their non-acceptance of homosexuality which is troubling to me)! Yes I think many of their beliefs are illogical and stupid, but most Evangelicals Christians I have met are some of the most charitable, ethical and kind-hearted people out there!
Click to expand...


What stigma?  Many prominent politicians, academics etc etc in the US are Jewish.  Even in Europe it isn't a bad thing.  Sarkozy's father or something was Jewish.  A fair number of British cabinet ministers are or were Jewish.
I can't believe someone would cave in to public perception and give up a 3,000 year heritage.  Especially after his ancestors probably died rather than do so.


----------



## GHook93

The Rabbi said:


> GHook93 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Kalam said:
> 
> 
> 
> Why would you want to abandon your heritage and identity?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The stigma of Jews outside of America and in certain parts of America is really not worth it, especially since I don't see the logic in a believing in a higher power!
> 
> I do however like the ethic of modern Evangelical Christianity (all accept their non-acceptance of homosexuality which is troubling to me)! Yes I think many of their beliefs are illogical and stupid, but most Evangelicals Christians I have met are some of the most charitable, ethical and kind-hearted people out there!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> What stigma?  Many prominent politicians, academics etc etc in the US are Jewish.  Even in Europe it isn't a bad thing.  Sarkozy's father or something was Jewish.  A fair number of British cabinet ministers are or were Jewish.
> I can't believe someone would cave in to public perception and give up a 3,000 year heritage.  Especially after his ancestors probably died rather than do so.
Click to expand...


I personally don't believe the Jewish religions rules, customs or beliefs! Sorry if things like the red sea parted then why do such "miracles" not happen today? Logic has to overcome folklore in my opinion. Protecting such beliefs to one's detriment is illogical to me! But I will remain whatever my kids are, if that is Judaism, then so be it!


----------



## The Rabbi

GHook93 said:


> The Rabbi said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> GHook93 said:
> 
> 
> 
> The stigma of Jews outside of America and in certain parts of America is really not worth it, especially since I don't see the logic in a believing in a higher power!
> 
> I do however like the ethic of modern Evangelical Christianity (all accept their non-acceptance of homosexuality which is troubling to me)! Yes I think many of their beliefs are illogical and stupid, but most Evangelicals Christians I have met are some of the most charitable, ethical and kind-hearted people out there!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What stigma?  Many prominent politicians, academics etc etc in the US are Jewish.  Even in Europe it isn't a bad thing.  Sarkozy's father or something was Jewish.  A fair number of British cabinet ministers are or were Jewish.
> I can't believe someone would cave in to public perception and give up a 3,000 year heritage.  Especially after his ancestors probably died rather than do so.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I personally don't believe the Jewish religions rules, customs or beliefs! Sorry if things like the red sea parted then why do such "miracles" not happen today? Logic has to overcome folklore in my opinion. Protecting such beliefs to one's detriment is illogical to me! But I will remain whatever my kids are, if that is Judaism, then so be it!
Click to expand...


Why would you?  And why do you think it's necessary to have belief before you can have action?


----------



## Skeptik

GHook93 said:


> The Rabbi said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> GHook93 said:
> 
> 
> 
> The stigma of Jews outside of America and in certain parts of America is really not worth it, especially since I don't see the logic in a believing in a higher power!
> 
> I do however like the ethic of modern Evangelical Christianity (all accept their non-acceptance of homosexuality which is troubling to me)! Yes I think many of their beliefs are illogical and stupid, but most Evangelicals Christians I have met are some of the most charitable, ethical and kind-hearted people out there!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What stigma?  Many prominent politicians, academics etc etc in the US are Jewish.  Even in Europe it isn't a bad thing.  Sarkozy's father or something was Jewish.  A fair number of British cabinet ministers are or were Jewish.
> I can't believe someone would cave in to public perception and give up a 3,000 year heritage.  Especially after his ancestors probably died rather than do so.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I personally don't believe the Jewish religions rules, customs or beliefs! Sorry if things like the red sea parted then why do such "miracles" not happen today? Logic has to overcome folklore in my opinion. Protecting such beliefs to one's detriment is illogical to me! But I will remain whatever my kids are, if that is Judaism, then so be it!
Click to expand...


Are those beliefs less credible than raising Lazerus from the dead, or feeding a whole crowd from one little kid's lunch?


----------



## GHook93

Skeptik said:


> GHook93 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Rabbi said:
> 
> 
> 
> What stigma?  Many prominent politicians, academics etc etc in the US are Jewish.  Even in Europe it isn't a bad thing.  Sarkozy's father or something was Jewish.  A fair number of British cabinet ministers are or were Jewish.
> I can't believe someone would cave in to public perception and give up a 3,000 year heritage.  Especially after his ancestors probably died rather than do so.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I personally don't believe the Jewish religions rules, customs or beliefs! Sorry if things like the red sea parted then why do such "miracles" not happen today? Logic has to overcome folklore in my opinion. Protecting such beliefs to one's detriment is illogical to me! But I will remain whatever my kids are, if that is Judaism, then so be it!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Are those beliefs less credible than raising Lazerus from the dead, or
Click to expand...


No, but that is not the point! Point is I rather not have my kids subject to stigmas and possible hatred simply because of a belief I don't share!



Skeptik said:


> feeding a whole crowd from one little kid's lunch?


Not sure I understand this comment!  Are you trying to say all atheist have to be Democrats?


----------



## DiveCon

GHook93 said:


> Skeptik said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> GHook93 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I personally don't believe the Jewish religions rules, customs or beliefs! Sorry if things like the red sea parted then why do such "miracles" not happen today? Logic has to overcome folklore in my opinion. Protecting such beliefs to one's detriment is illogical to me! But I will remain whatever my kids are, if that is Judaism, then so be it!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Are those beliefs less credible than raising Lazerus from the dead, or
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No, but that is not the point! Point is I rather not have my kids subject to stigmas and possible hatred simply because of a belief I don't share!
> 
> 
> 
> Skeptik said:
> 
> 
> 
> feeding a whole crowd from one little kid's lunch?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Not sure I understand this comment!  Are you trying to say all atheist have to be Democrats?
Click to expand...

i think he was trying to make the comparison to beliefs in Christianity


----------



## Skeptik

GHook93 said:


> Skeptik said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> GHook93 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I personally don't believe the Jewish religions rules, customs or beliefs! Sorry if things like the red sea parted then why do such "miracles" not happen today? Logic has to overcome folklore in my opinion. Protecting such beliefs to one's detriment is illogical to me! But I will remain whatever my kids are, if that is Judaism, then so be it!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Are those beliefs less credible than raising Lazerus from the dead, or
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No, but that is not the point! Point is I rather not have my kids subject to stigmas and possible hatred simply because of a belief I don't share!
> 
> 
> 
> Skeptik said:
> 
> 
> 
> feeding a whole crowd from one little kid's lunch?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Not sure I understand this comment!  Are you trying to say all atheist have to be Democrats?
Click to expand...


 No, that was a reference to another of Jesus miracles, the feeding loaves and fishes to the multitudes from food meant for one child.  

The point being that Christian miracles are no more credible in today's world than are Jewish ones.


----------



## Liability

The stupid OP question is:  *"Why did the holocaust occur?"* 

The correct answer, obviously, is: *"Because those Jews just refuse to commit mass suicide."*

The fucking Nazis and filthy Islamoscum wouldn't have to try so hard to wipe them out if only the Jews would oblige them by killing themselves off.

Gee.  I wonder why the Jews just never seem willing to oblige the scumbags who want them all dead?


----------



## The Rabbi

Skeptik said:


> GHook93 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Rabbi said:
> 
> 
> 
> What stigma?  Many prominent politicians, academics etc etc in the US are Jewish.  Even in Europe it isn't a bad thing.  Sarkozy's father or something was Jewish.  A fair number of British cabinet ministers are or were Jewish.
> I can't believe someone would cave in to public perception and give up a 3,000 year heritage.  Especially after his ancestors probably died rather than do so.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I personally don't believe the Jewish religions rules, customs or beliefs! Sorry if things like the red sea parted then why do such "miracles" not happen today? Logic has to overcome folklore in my opinion. Protecting such beliefs to one's detriment is illogical to me! But I will remain whatever my kids are, if that is Judaism, then so be it!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Are those beliefs less credible than raising Lazerus from the dead, or feeding a whole crowd from one little kid's lunch?
Click to expand...


Unfortunately for your point Judaism doesn't rely on miracles for validation of what we believe.


----------



## GHook93

Skeptik said:


> GHook93 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Skeptik said:
> 
> 
> 
> Are those beliefs less credible than raising Lazerus from the dead, or
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No, but that is not the point! Point is I rather not have my kids subject to stigmas and possible hatred simply because of a belief I don't share!
> 
> 
> 
> Skeptik said:
> 
> 
> 
> feeding a whole crowd from one little kid's lunch?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Not sure I understand this comment!  Are you trying to say all atheist have to be Democrats?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No, that was a reference to another of Jesus miracles, the feeding loaves and fishes to the multitudes from food meant for one child.
> 
> The point being that Christian miracles are no more credible in today's world than are Jewish ones.
Click to expand...


The same can be said of all religious miracles! Including Islamic!


----------



## Godboy

Sunni Man said:


> ABikerSailor said:
> 
> 
> 
> Nice.........Sunnidiot and Yakking One are going to form their own little racist club.
> 
> Shit........invite Chucked Ass and you'll have your own little Rainbow Coalition of hate!
> 
> 
> 
> As I have stated before ABikerSailor.
> 
> I am 100% against racism, in any way, shape or form.
> 
> Racism is based on stupidity and pure ignorance.
Click to expand...


You are also a flat out liar, which means nothing you say should be taken seriously. You ARE a racist, and one of the worst on the USMB's.


----------



## Kalam

Godboy said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ABikerSailor said:
> 
> 
> 
> Nice.........Sunnidiot and Yakking One are going to form their own little racist club.
> 
> Shit........invite Chucked Ass and you'll have your own little Rainbow Coalition of hate!
> 
> 
> 
> As I have stated before ABikerSailor.
> 
> I am 100% against racism, in any way, shape or form.
> 
> Racism is based on stupidity and pure ignorance.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You are also a flat out liar, which means nothing you say should be taken seriously. You ARE a racist, and one of the worst on the USMB's.
Click to expand...


That means a lot coming from you, Torquemada.


----------



## DiveCon

Godboy said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ABikerSailor said:
> 
> 
> 
> Nice.........Sunnidiot and Yakking One are going to form their own little racist club.
> 
> Shit........invite Chucked Ass and you'll have your own little Rainbow Coalition of hate!
> 
> 
> 
> As I have stated before ABikerSailor.
> 
> I am 100% against racism, in any way, shape or form.
> 
> Racism is based on stupidity and pure ignorance.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You are also a flat out liar, which means nothing you say should be taken seriously. You ARE a racist, and one of the worst on the USMB's.
Click to expand...

i wouldn't call him a racist, more of a massive bigot


----------



## mdn2000

Maybe Sunni can answer why Arabs had to flee Moslem countries. Why did Moslems flee Baghdad, Mecca, Cario, why did all those Arabs flee to live with Jews. Why did so many Moslems flee all of the Moslem controlled countries to live in the USA. 

Why did moslems take their children to Jews to be cured of a disease that caused blindness.

Why do arabs still flee, why do arabs still seek life with Americans and Jews.

Sunni continues to prove the world will never be free of morons. Moron as in one of lower intelligence.


----------



## ABikerSailor

They left the IsLAME countries because the radicals of their religion had taken over and the inmates had the asylum under their control.

Same thing could conceivably happen in this country with the Christian conservatives............


----------



## actsnoblemartin

way to add nothing to a thread, you insensitive prick





dilloduck said:


> DavidS said:
> 
> 
> 
> I don't believe there is any question that is so simple yet that requires such a complex answer.
> 
> On another message board more relating to photography, a photographer had unveiled a new, quite excellent body of work that exhibited portraits of holocaust survivors. One critic had this to say about the subject matter:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> To be perfectly frank I see no point in adding yet another body of work -even a work as masterful as this clearly is -to the subject of the Holocaust that is devoid of any serious analysis of the question of _why._ A million volumes have already been written and they all with few exceptions primarily function to shroud the episode in mystery, rendering the subject broadly incomprehensible and in so doing, serving to intellectually disarm any meaningful resistance to its future resuscitation.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The discussion of politics is not allowed on that forum, so I thought I would turn the discussion over to here, where there are quite a few intelligent people on this forum.
> 
> So, why do YOU think the holocaust happened? Give whatever realist or phillisophical belief you might have on why it occurred.
> 
> Also, I know there are deniers out there who believe the holocaust never happened and we've got your story down - thank you. I also know there are one or two neo-nazis/skinheads/racists on this forum, again thank you, we know you hate Jews. This discussion is not for you and I would thank you if you kept out of it.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I don't give a shit and am tired of constantly hearing about.
Click to expand...


----------



## actsnoblemartin

not 6 milion or 11 million or 50 million have died recently outside wwII because of hitler

so shut the fuck up you ignoramous. Youre a disgrace to texans everywhere



dilloduck said:


> Echo Zulu said:
> 
> 
> 
> It happened because Mans Inhumanity to Man has no boundaries.
> 
> _The safest course is to do nothing against one's conscience. With this secret, we can enjoy life and have no fear from death. _-Voltaire
> 
> 
> 
> 
> and continues to happen to every race, nationality, and creed.
Click to expand...


----------



## actsnoblemartin

fuck you. I hope your parents are taken away, and your family is gassed or shot in the head you fucking faggot

Fuck YOu



dilloduck said:


> DavidS said:
> 
> 
> 
> I don't believe there is any question that is so simple yet that requires such a complex answer.
> 
> On another message board more relating to photography, a photographer had unveiled a new, quite excellent body of work that exhibited portraits of holocaust survivors. One critic had this to say about the subject matter:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> To be perfectly frank I see no point in adding yet another body of work -even a work as masterful as this clearly is -to the subject of the Holocaust that is devoid of any serious analysis of the question of _why._ A million volumes have already been written and they all with few exceptions primarily function to shroud the episode in mystery, rendering the subject broadly incomprehensible and in so doing, serving to intellectually disarm any meaningful resistance to its future resuscitation.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The discussion of politics is not allowed on that forum, so I thought I would turn the discussion over to here, where there are quite a few intelligent people on this forum.
> 
> So, why do YOU think the holocaust happened? Give whatever realist or phillisophical belief you might have on why it occurred.
> 
> Also, I know there are deniers out there who believe the holocaust never happened and we've got your story down - thank you. I also know there are one or two neo-nazis/skinheads/racists on this forum, again thank you, we know you hate Jews. This discussion is not for you and I would thank you if you kept out of it.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I don't give a shit and am tired of constantly hearing about.
Click to expand...


----------



## actsnoblemartin

thats not true, the holocaust is when 6 million jews were murdered/ almost the entire jewish population of europe/ the world was wiped out

if your referring the to armenian genocide fine, but their is only one holocaust



Anguille said:


> DavidS said:
> 
> 
> 
> I don't believe there is any question that is so simple yet that requires such a complex answer.
> 
> On another message board more relating to photography, a photographer had unveiled a new, quite excellent body of work that exhibited portraits of holocaust survivors. One critic had this to say about the subject matter:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> To be perfectly frank I see no point in adding yet another body of work -even a work as masterful as this clearly is -to the subject of the Holocaust that is devoid of any serious analysis of the question of _why._ A million volumes have already been written and they all with few exceptions primarily function to shroud the episode in mystery, rendering the subject broadly incomprehensible and in so doing, serving to intellectually disarm any meaningful resistance to its future resuscitation.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The discussion of politics is not allowed on that forum, so I thought I would turn the discussion over to here, where there are quite a few intelligent people on this forum.
> 
> So, why do YOU think the holocaust happened? Give whatever realist or phillisophical belief you might have on why it occurred.
> 
> Also, I know there are deniers out there who believe the holocaust never happened and we've got your story down - thank you. I also know there are one or two neo-nazis/skinheads/racists on this forum, again thank you, we know you hate Jews. This discussion is not for you and I would thank you if you kept out of it.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Which holocaust?  Our history is full of them.
Click to expand...


----------



## mdn2000

Hitler's Willing Executioners (1996) is a history book by American writer Daniel Goldhagen 

This is a great book as to why the holocaust happened. I know of no better book on the subject. The book discusses the history of Germany way before the holocaust, I am not sure how far back the book goes but it talks of what was happenening in the 1800's, a great book with great insights and facts overlooked all to often in other books.


----------



## My Lady Rachel

DavidS said:


> I don't believe there is any question that is so simple yet that requires such a complex answer.
> 
> On another message board more relating to photography, a photographer had unveiled a new, quite excellent body of work that exhibited portraits of holocaust survivors. One critic had this to say about the subject matter:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> To be perfectly frank I see no point in adding yet another body of work -even a work as masterful as this clearly is -to the subject of the Holocaust that is devoid of any serious analysis of the question of _why._ A million volumes have already been written and they all with few exceptions primarily function to shroud the episode in mystery, rendering the subject broadly incomprehensible and in so doing, serving to intellectually disarm any meaningful resistance to its future resuscitation.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The discussion of politics is not allowed on that forum, so I thought I would turn the discussion over to here, where there are quite a few intelligent people on this forum.
> 
> So, why do YOU think the holocaust happened? Give whatever realist or phillisophical belief you might have on why it occurred.
> 
> Also, I know there are deniers out there who believe the holocaust never happened and we've got your story down - thank you. I also know there are one or two neo-nazis/skinheads/racists on this forum, again thank you, we know you hate Jews. This discussion is not for you and I would thank you if you kept out of it.
Click to expand...


After WWI, Germany was a mess  at certain points, their money was literally not worth the paper it was printed on. Thats a very scary thing to have happen, because youre never sure if youll get food or clothing or medicine if you get sick. And when things are going that badly and people are scared, they often look for someone to blame or something to do, because then they are less scared. They also look for a leader, because they need someone to protect them. 

Hitler was a very charismatic speaker, who filled the role of leader really well. And he picked the Jews as the people to blame, along with Communists, intellectuals, homosexuals, etc. He also gave the German people a vision of themselves as perfect and ideal, with a higher calling that could only be fulfilled if they got rid of undesireables. All those things are very, very inviting ideas if you are starving and frightened and it worked. 

Its also true that orthodox Jewish religious doctrine encourages Jews to think of themselves as Gods Chosen People and a cut above the rest of us. Put that together with certain behaviors that set them apart (distinctive clothing and hair styles among the Chasidim, for example) and its not hard for unscrupulous people in power to take the heat off themselves by pointing at the foreigners, the ones who arent real Germans, whatever. The same scapegoating is currently underway in the US, with Muslim Americans and Arab-Americans as the victims. During WWII it was Japanese-Americans and in WWI the German-Americans. Were not currently rounding up the Muslims or Arabs and putting them in concentration camps, the way we did the Japanese-Americans in WWII, but who knows what will happen next year?


----------



## dilloduck

My Lady Rachel said:


> DavidS said:
> 
> 
> 
> I don't believe there is any question that is so simple yet that requires such a complex answer.
> 
> On another message board more relating to photography, a photographer had unveiled a new, quite excellent body of work that exhibited portraits of holocaust survivors. One critic had this to say about the subject matter:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> To be perfectly frank I see no point in adding yet another body of work -even a work as masterful as this clearly is -to the subject of the Holocaust that is devoid of any serious analysis of the question of _why._ A million volumes have already been written and they all with few exceptions primarily function to shroud the episode in mystery, rendering the subject broadly incomprehensible and in so doing, serving to intellectually disarm any meaningful resistance to its future resuscitation.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The discussion of politics is not allowed on that forum, so I thought I would turn the discussion over to here, where there are quite a few intelligent people on this forum.
> 
> So, why do YOU think the holocaust happened? Give whatever realist or phillisophical belief you might have on why it occurred.
> 
> Also, I know there are deniers out there who believe the holocaust never happened and we've got your story down - thank you. I also know there are one or two neo-nazis/skinheads/racists on this forum, again thank you, we know you hate Jews. This discussion is not for you and I would thank you if you kept out of it.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> After WWI, Germany was a mess  at certain points, their money was literally not worth the paper it was printed on. Thats a very scary thing to have happen, because youre never sure if youll get food or clothing or medicine if you get sick. And when things are going that badly and people are scared, they often look for someone to blame or something to do, because then they are less scared. They also look for a leader, because they need someone to protect them.
> 
> Hitler was a very charismatic speaker, who filled the role of leader really well. And he picked the Jews as the people to blame, along with Communists, intellectuals, homosexuals, etc. He also gave the German people a vision of themselves as perfect and ideal, with a higher calling that could only be fulfilled if they got rid of undesireables. All those things are very, very inviting ideas if you are starving and frightened and it worked.
> 
> Its also true that orthodox Jewish religious doctrine encourages Jews to think of themselves as Gods Chosen People and a cut above the rest of us. Put that together with certain behaviors that set them apart (distinctive clothing and hair styles among the Chasidim, for example) and its not hard for unscrupulous people in power to take the heat off themselves by pointing at the foreigners, the ones who arent real Germans, whatever. The same scapegoating is currently underway in the US, with Muslim Americans and Arab-Americans as the victims. During WWII it was Japanese-Americans and in WWI the German-Americans. Were not currently rounding up the Muslims or Arabs and putting them in concentration camps, the way we did the Japanese-Americans in WWII, but who knows what will happen next year?
Click to expand...


Are you kidding? America is going to commit PC suicide.


----------



## My Lady Rachel

manu1959 said:


> i have another question.....if this never happened why did the nazis create records that show that it did.....







Yes, all those germans were lying, their records are fabricated, soldiers who liberated the camps were lying and all the peole liberated from those camps are also lying.

Only the retards, dimbulbs and uneducated slobs of the world are able to figure it out.


----------



## My Lady Rachel

dilloduck said:


> My Lady Rachel said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> DavidS said:
> 
> 
> 
> I don't believe there is any question that is so simple yet that requires such a complex answer.
> 
> On another message board more relating to photography, a photographer had unveiled a new, quite excellent body of work that exhibited portraits of holocaust survivors. One critic had this to say about the subject matter:
> 
> 
> 
> The discussion of politics is not allowed on that forum, so I thought I would turn the discussion over to here, where there are quite a few intelligent people on this forum.
> 
> So, why do YOU think the holocaust happened? Give whatever realist or phillisophical belief you might have on why it occurred.
> 
> Also, I know there are deniers out there who believe the holocaust never happened and we've got your story down - thank you. I also know there are one or two neo-nazis/skinheads/racists on this forum, again thank you, we know you hate Jews. This discussion is not for you and I would thank you if you kept out of it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> After WWI, Germany was a mess  at certain points, their money was literally not worth the paper it was printed on. Thats a very scary thing to have happen, because youre never sure if youll get food or clothing or medicine if you get sick. And when things are going that badly and people are scared, they often look for someone to blame or something to do, because then they are less scared. They also look for a leader, because they need someone to protect them.
> 
> Hitler was a very charismatic speaker, who filled the role of leader really well. And he picked the Jews as the people to blame, along with Communists, intellectuals, homosexuals, etc. He also gave the German people a vision of themselves as perfect and ideal, with a higher calling that could only be fulfilled if they got rid of undesireables. All those things are very, very inviting ideas if you are starving and frightened and it worked.
> 
> Its also true that orthodox Jewish religious doctrine encourages Jews to think of themselves as Gods Chosen People and a cut above the rest of us. Put that together with certain behaviors that set them apart (distinctive clothing and hair styles among the Chasidim, for example) and its not hard for unscrupulous people in power to take the heat off themselves by pointing at the foreigners, the ones who arent real Germans, whatever. The same scapegoating is currently underway in the US, with Muslim Americans and Arab-Americans as the victims. During WWII it was Japanese-Americans and in WWI the German-Americans. Were not currently rounding up the Muslims or Arabs and putting them in concentration camps, the way we did the Japanese-Americans in WWII, but who knows what will happen next year?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Are you kidding? America is going to commit PC suicide.
Click to expand...




But if you commit suicide you're a friggin pussy that will never get laid.


----------



## dilloduck

My Lady Rachel said:


> dilloduck said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> My Lady Rachel said:
> 
> 
> 
> After WWI, Germany was a mess  at certain points, their money was literally not worth the paper it was printed on. Thats a very scary thing to have happen, because youre never sure if youll get food or clothing or medicine if you get sick. And when things are going that badly and people are scared, they often look for someone to blame or something to do, because then they are less scared. They also look for a leader, because they need someone to protect them.
> 
> Hitler was a very charismatic speaker, who filled the role of leader really well. And he picked the Jews as the people to blame, along with Communists, intellectuals, homosexuals, etc. He also gave the German people a vision of themselves as perfect and ideal, with a higher calling that could only be fulfilled if they got rid of undesireables. All those things are very, very inviting ideas if you are starving and frightened and it worked.
> 
> Its also true that orthodox Jewish religious doctrine encourages Jews to think of themselves as Gods Chosen People and a cut above the rest of us. Put that together with certain behaviors that set them apart (distinctive clothing and hair styles among the Chasidim, for example) and its not hard for unscrupulous people in power to take the heat off themselves by pointing at the foreigners, the ones who arent real Germans, whatever. The same scapegoating is currently underway in the US, with Muslim Americans and Arab-Americans as the victims. During WWII it was Japanese-Americans and in WWI the German-Americans. Were not currently rounding up the Muslims or Arabs and putting them in concentration camps, the way we did the Japanese-Americans in WWII, but who knows what will happen next year?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Are you kidding? America is going to commit PC suicide.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But if you commit suicide you're a friggin pussy that will never get laid.
Click to expand...


please convince the PC crowd of that--thanks in advance


----------



## My Lady Rachel

roomy said:


> Hitler and his henchmen found themselves in a position of Godlike power, Germany was in crisis and the Jews were an easy blame for all the woes of the German people.As horrible as it is, this hatred of the Jewry united the German people to such an effect that his pograms snowballed.





That depends on when you mean, while he was consolidating his power or after... 

Don't forget Hitler was in power for years before the war actually began. Hitler did many things for Germany in the beginning. He brought the people pride, which they had lost after the humimilating aftermath of WW1. He brought jobs, a better economy, organization, infrastructure, industry. 

He organized the youth into the Hitler Youth programs, for both boys and girls. He took over the children's minds with indoctrination in these groups, through songs, chants, mottos and rallies. School curriculums were rewritten with the Nazi agenda, anti-Jew, with Germans as the master race. A generation of youth was brought up to believe these things. 

After his policies got started, and the real terror began, people were afraid. Children were encouraged to turn in their parents who spoke out against the regime. People who befriended or defended Jews disappeared. It was better to be quiet than resist. 

Of course many people followed him because they agreed with his policies. Or because they wanted to be seen as loyal to the regime, and gain promotions, the usual reasons of greed and ambition. 

I'm sure the people who helped his evilness spread were not cruel people, really. I think maybe the fear for your family, your life, takes over. And you just grow accustomed, learn to bury your head and not ask too many questions.


----------



## My Lady Rachel

Sunni Man said:


> KittenKoder said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry to hear about your family members KK
> .
> I am in No way trying to slander them or any other person who lost their lives during the Third Reich.
> 
> My interest in the so called holocaust has to deal with some of the details of the alledged event.
> 
> Yes, the Nazis killed hundereds of thousands of innocent people during this terrible time. This was wrong and can't be condoned by any sane person.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Then why are you denying it? Why do you really give a fuck who was really harmed anyway? It was horrible, Adolf was a monster and the Nazis were his minions. He turned on his own in the worst possible way. Are you angry because us Jews are the only ones willing to keep reminding people of what monstrosities humans are capable of if they blindly follow one belief, one leader, and one ideal without regard to others? Are you pissed because a real event gets more attention than some religious myth in some over-translated book? Really, what do you have against the Jews telling our stories? Anytime you deny it you are slandering them, you are calling all of them liars, even if your numbers were accurate (in reality they aren't since they still haven't finished digging up all the mass graves and many are now buried under buildings even) why would it be any less atrocious? Either you are jealous, a troll, or trying to justify repeating the event.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I am Not angry about anything concerning the alleged holocaust KK
> 
> I love to read and study anything about history. Especially WWII because my Father was a soldier there in Europe fighting the Nazis.
> 
> But when countries make laws saying that this subject can only be looked at ONE way and everyone must parrot the official story or go to jail. That tells me something is wrong. Very wrong.
> 
> What is being hidden from the public?
Click to expand...



In America, political speech has always been among the most protected forms, but even in politics, you aren't allowed to lie about your opponent. Why should you be allowed to lie about the Holocaust? Perhaps it's only because the people you might lie about&#65279; are already dead. 

Hate speech is not Freedom of Speech!

Perhaps the quick and easy solution is for you is to accept that we in the west have freedom of speech? 

Freedom of speech? How do they figure? The westerner does not have freedom of speech. He is led to believe he does but, try standng on a street corner in San Francisco and shouting "Queers suck!" (yeah...funny huh?) or try standing on a corner in downtown Detroit and shout something about Ni@@ers. You will be hauled off to the town square and whipped if you survive that long. See that's now called "Hate Speech". Now stand on a corner in those cities and talk bad about Jews or Christians. Folks will stop, listen, some will cheer and the cops will walk on by chewing their donuts. That's not "Hate Speech". So, we know we do not have free speech at all. 

You can say what you want where you want, but you also have to deal with the repercussions that come from what you said. Well until the cops come and pull your limp body out of the pile and rush you to the hospital.


----------



## My Lady Rachel

Sunni Man said:


> I always find it sad when people call others not human just because of disagreements over politics or ideology.
> 
> We shouldn't degrade others over issues and events that are debateable.
> 
> Heck, I will even admitt that homosexuals are humans, even though they engage in animalistic and sub human behavior.




I try to judge people by the content of their character not by what they do in bed. 

The fact is that adult male homosexuality has been there from the start (whenever that was.) I believe it started back in the era with the Roman soldiers. Roman men and women liked big masculine men for sex. There is a myth that Romans looked down on a man for such behavior, but this was just an attitude, not a reality. Roman men would try anything in bed. Even the Emperor, would go into the barracks, where soldiers lived naked, and partake of the hairy muscularity as he saw fit. Military officers using their men for sex was common also in Arabia, if you read the true Lawrence of Arabia story and not the movie version.


Long before the Romans, homosexuality existed in ancient Persia... King Darius had a loveboy, who became Alexander the Great's lover when he defeated the Persian army.


Among many Middle Eastern Muslim cultures, homosexual practices were widespread and public. Persian poets, such as Sadi (d. 1291), Hafez (d. 1389), and Jami (d. 1492), wrote poems replete with homoerotic allusions. The two most commonly documented forms were commercial sex with transgender males or males enacting transgender roles exemplified by the köçeks and the bacchás, and Sufi spiritual practices in which the practitioner crossed over from the idealized chaste form of the practice to one in which the desire is consummated. 

In Persia homosexuality and homoerotic expressions were tolerated in numerous public places, from monasteries and seminaries to taverns, military camps, bathhouses, and coffee houses. In the early Safavid era (15011723), male houses of prostitution (amrad khane) were legally recognized and paid taxes.


----------



## mdn2000

My Lady Rachel, you posts seem good, I dont have time to respond in detail nor do I feel a need to. However a fact of history right to the end is ordinary germans willingly participated in the holocaust. Sure some through fear, but the majority that participated did so because they wanted to. Not because they were tricked by Nazi propaganda but simply because this is what the german people beleived. This is documented. The hatred did not come from Hitler, it came from German culture, a culture that developed well before the 1900's. 

Hitler's Willing Executioners (1996) is a history book by American writer Daniel Goldhagen 

Read this book, its the most important book on the subject, well maybe the second most important next to the "The Black Book".


----------



## Yukon

We will be victorious we will recalim our land from the Jew. Long live the memory of Arafat!


----------



## Ringel05

My new theory is that Yukon sent a letter to Hitler in 1932 discussing the Holy Cross and a personal recipe for a Wine Dilution.  Since he cant spell worth a shit the Nazis thought he meant Holocaust and Final Solution.


----------



## germanguy

mdn2000 said:


> My Lady Rachel, you posts seem good, I dont have time to respond in detail nor do I feel a need to. However a fact of history right to the end is ordinary germans willingly participated in the holocaust. Sure some through fear, but the majority that participated did so because they wanted to. Not because they were tricked by Nazi propaganda but simply because this is what the german people beleived. This is documented. The hatred did not come from Hitler, it came from German culture, a culture that developed well before the 1900's.
> 
> Hitler's Willing Executioners (1996) is a history book by American writer Daniel Goldhagen
> 
> Read this book, its the most important book on the subject, well maybe the second most important next to the "The Black Book".



Well , as a german I am somewhat biased in this question, but nonetheless an answer must be given to this.

First of all, I totally disagree with Goldhagen. I have read the book, but I do not follow it´s conclusions.
The theory, that the Germans had a culture with an antisemitism incorporated, that was directed to exterminate, is at least doubtful.
Also, the explanation why antisemitism was not virulent after 1945 is also plain stupid.
It is because we were culturally educated by the US and the British to not continue this.
I do not buy this. 
Then any danger would end with the germans. 

In 1900, if you would have asked any european, who might try to kill every Jew in Europe, most people would have guessed Russia or France. Germany would have been perhaps on a fourth or fifth place. 

On the contrary, the jewish community in Germany was very upper-middle-class and therefore well connected with the elite.
In then Germany the jewish population was nearly totally assimilated within the rest of the society. Perhaps a jewish member of the high nobility was still seen as very far away and a jewish Field Marshal would have been still unthinklable. Nonetheless, before WWI, nobody would have thought about killing every german jew.

That 30 years later it would have been thinkable to get rid of the german jews, was very far off the public mind.

The Holocaust simply did not happen because every German decided to kill the jewish neighbours. Or already wanted to.
It sunk gradually in the peoples mind and in wartime most germans hid behind their own problems.

The separation of the Jews started early after 1933 and became very gradually worse.
It was difficult to judge, where all the new laws were directed.
I.e.: After 1933 german jewish pupils were excluded from certain sport festivities in school.
This might have caused some irritation, but is at least not so bad. Then it was forbidden for german jews as doctors to pratice on the so-called "Aryan Germans". Might irritate, but also at least not so dangerous. So gradually the jewish part of the germans was step by step separated from the rest and the people got used to the idea that these jews were distinctively different. And they were not so visible anymore.
There has been some form of protest, but this was easily quelled. Any form of discontent might have been reported to the almighty Gestapo and therefore people kept their mouth shut.
Also, a certain antisemitism was there as well. A lot of large businesses were owned by jews, so some agreed, that they had too much influence and so on. Also, as most jews were rather middle-class, a certain grudge against the alledgedly richer and cleverer jews was there as well. (Dr. Goldstein is rich, my savings are gone due to inflaltion - it has to do with him beeing Jew).

And everything of these things was done by proper bureaucratic procedure. 
Behind this a lot of people have easily hidden (An order is an order !).

The real bloody work was done by a rather small minority of either very brutal or very cool and coldhearted killers apart from Germany. It is no surprise, that all extermination camps were in Poland. What was in Germany was still gruesome enough, but these were also apart from the cities.

And we should never forget, that although Germany had the biggest and decisive part in this, a lot of people from other nationalities wholeheartly helped with the killing. Some had no other choice (beeing occupied) some plainly refused (Denmark) some were ideologically on the same level (Croatia back then).

Therefore, my answer would be:

A certain number of factors were already there, a lot of factors were personalized in Hitler himself and a lot of things were coincidence.

I would bet, that nearly every society can single out a certain group (Peasants, Intellectuals, Muslims, Jews - whatever) and slowly degrade them.
From there to the will of total extinction it is only a small step.

There is only one small and nearly invisible line after which barbarism begins.
Therefore I always feel uneasy, when a certain group is singled out as scapegoat for whatever. I think it already starts at this point.

What now exactly lied behind the antisemistism of Hitler I still can not grasp. If you read his works it all runs down "It were the Jews". If you then firmly believe this, the next logical step is to get rid of them.
By the Way, Hitler was also not very fond of Christianity (made the germans too soft), Liberals, Conservatives, the Disabled, the Blacks, Homosexuals, Sinti and Roma - they also died in the camps, but formed a too small number individually to be remembered. It were not only six million jews, but also nearly 3,4 million soviet soldiers and the above groups which were considered as unworthy to live. The number of people killed in concentration camps are about 11 million. 
And for these, there was no preexisting hatred or cultural anti-whatever within the german culture.

Never forget: The first who died in German Concetration Camps were .... Germans.

Regards

the germanguy


----------



## The Rabbi

On the contrary I found Goldhagen's book very persuasive.  He makes the case that non-Jewish Germans regarded Jews as alien, that their existence in Germany constituted a problem that needed a solution.  Their extermination was simply an extreme conclusion carried out by a small number but acquiesced to by virtually everyone.
But just as WWI and its trauma paved teh way for Hitler, so too WW2 paved the way for a serious re-examination of German attitudes towards almost everything.
The good consequence is that Germans are probably teh least anti semitic in Europe.  The bad consequence is that legitimate issues cannot be discussed without referring to Nazi policy.


----------



## germanguy

Sunni Man said:


> I always find it sad when people call others not human just because of disagreements over politics or ideology.
> 
> We shouldn't degrade others over issues and events that are debateable.
> 
> Heck, I will even admitt that homosexuals are humans, even though they engage in animalistic and sub human behavior.



Just as a footnote:
What is homosexual and therefore - according i.e. to the followers of Mohammed or Christ - sinful,  depends upon your cultural point of view.

A Spartan warrior might have looked very puzzled, when you tried to insult him as homosexual. It was not only perfectly accepted in Sparta, it was part of the education of younger men.
Older men educated younger men (which included the sexuality) and their position within the rigid society back then was also determined by the abilities and the status of the young men, they were together with. If then the young men proved himself not only a brave warrior it raised the status of the elder man. That this included sex was not to mention.
It was normal.

So, perhaps in 1500 years mine and your heterosexuality will be seen as something very dirty and filthy. 

regards
the germanguy


----------



## germanguy

The Rabbi said:


> On the contrary I found Goldhagen's book very persuasive.  He makes the case that non-Jewish Germans regarded Jews as alien, that their existence in Germany constituted a problem that needed a solution.  Their extermination was simply an extreme conclusion carried out by a small number but acquiesced to by virtually everyone.
> But just as WWI and its trauma paved teh way for Hitler, so too WW2 paved the way for a serious re-examination of German attitudes towards almost everything.
> The good consequence is that Germans are probably teh least anti semitic in Europe.  The bad consequence is that legitimate issues cannot be discussed without referring to Nazi policy.



Dear Rabbi,

persuasive yes, but he is rather very selective with his sources.

So it was common in nearly every european state in the 17th, 18th or 19th century, that jews formed a distinct and somewhat "alien" group. In France they became citizens after the revolution. 
In most german states this may differ, but in general between 1815 and 1840 in most german states Jews either had de facto the same rights as other subjects of the respective prince or had them by edict.
When Germany was unified in 1871 all german Jews got the same rights as every other german citizen.
As said, within the army (and in the juridical system) jews were still either not allowed or not accepted. But in every other field they assimilated very well.

But you must see regional differences. There were still rural parts, were jews still kept for their own and did not assimilate. If you had asked what people thought in these parts, you will find antisemitism. 
Also, there always was antisemitism on the rise during times of economic crisis. But as France had proven with it´s Deyfuss Affaire, antisemitism was not limited to Germany.
I would sum up these under "christian prejudice". So were there constant fears of small businessmen of the bigger jewish warehouses etc. 
But nothing of these was found only and exclusively in Germany, so I do not follow Goldhagen in this.

Regards
the germanguy


----------



## The Rabbi

That isn't a fair comparison.
In Dover's book on Greek Homosexuality he points out that our idea of the homosexual was very odd to the Greeks.  And they often made fun of it.
Greek homosexuality was more of a stage of life. There were few people exclusively either homosexual or heterosexual.

But the Greeks also didnt have a problem with exposing infants on a hillside, something the monotheistic traditions have definitely termed sinful.


----------



## germanguy

The Rabbi said:


> That isn't a fair comparison.
> In Dover's book on Greek Homosexuality he points out that our idea of the homosexual was very odd to the Greeks.  And they often made fun of it.
> Greek homosexuality was more of a stage of life. There were few people exclusively either homosexual or heterosexual.
> 
> But the Greeks also didnt have a problem with exposing infants on a hillside, something the monotheistic traditions have definitely termed sinful.



This is exactly what I meant.
A Greek might even have been totally puzzled by our concept of Homosexuality.
To sleep for years with a young man and then marry and have children was normal and nobody has seen this as unnormal or unhealthy or immoral. 
What is sinful is a rather monotheistic concept, at least it seems so to me.
Especially in regard of sexuality the Greeks had a totally different angle of view to this.

Where especially the Roman Catholics have - err - a problem with sex and who is allowed to do what, this was a problem the Greeks simply did not understood. 
Heck, there were rites of worship, which included sexual intercourse in certain positions considered holy. This perhaps the early christians found revolting and the Greeks simply did not get this.

So, as I said before, it heaviliy depends upon your point of view and the time you live in.

regards
the germanguy


----------



## germanguy

Made my avatar...always wanted to have a flag. 

Hee...and please nobody tells the federal president, as the use of this flag is limited by law to services and buildings of the german government. 

But now to something completely different: the subject of this thread.

Before I do get applause from the wrong ones:
That I do not agree with Goldhagen does not mean I do support in any way hate speech or the denial of the Holocaust.

I personally believe that Goldhagen´s book had it´s merits:
His central thesis is uncomfortable enough, that the Germans started a vivid debate about it. 

This at last is a very good thing, as certain details described by Goldhagen are correct and well written. 

But I still do not see, that Germans are the predestined killers of the Jews. 

We all have to face the fact, that we evolved monkeys are a cruel and bloodthirsty species. And we all have to fight this demon by using the most important organ we have: our brain. 

Regards 
the germanguy


----------



## jillian

germanguy said:


> The Rabbi said:
> 
> 
> 
> On the contrary I found Goldhagen's book very persuasive.  He makes the case that non-Jewish Germans regarded Jews as alien, that their existence in Germany constituted a problem that needed a solution.  Their extermination was simply an extreme conclusion carried out by a small number but acquiesced to by virtually everyone.
> But just as WWI and its trauma paved teh way for Hitler, so too WW2 paved the way for a serious re-examination of German attitudes towards almost everything.
> The good consequence is that Germans are probably teh least anti semitic in Europe.  The bad consequence is that legitimate issues cannot be discussed without referring to Nazi policy.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dear Rabbi,
> 
> persuasive yes, but he is rather very selective with his sources.
> 
> So it was common in nearly every european state in the 17th, 18th or 19th century, that jews formed a distinct and somewhat "alien" group. In France they became citizens after the revolution.
> In most german states this may differ, but in general between 1815 and 1840 in most german states Jews either had de facto the same rights as other subjects of the respective prince or had them by edict.
> When Germany was unified in 1871 all german Jews got the same rights as every other german citizen.
> As said, within the army (and in the juridical system) jews were still either not allowed or not accepted. But in every other field they assimilated very well.
> 
> But you must see regional differences. There were still rural parts, were jews still kept for their own and did not assimilate. If you had asked what people thought in these parts, you will find antisemitism.
> Also, there always was antisemitism on the rise during times of economic crisis. But as France had proven with it´s Deyfuss Affaire, antisemitism was not limited to Germany.
> I would sum up these under "christian prejudice". So were there constant fears of small businessmen of the bigger jewish warehouses etc.
> But nothing of these was found only and exclusively in Germany, so I do not follow Goldhagen in this.
> 
> Regards
> the germanguy
Click to expand...


There was nothing new about anti-semitism. the Nazis only perfected the means of addressing the problem. And like everything else Germans do, they were meticulous in their efforts. (That's not a negative stereotype, btw... it's just I happen to respect that aspect of German culture.. notwithstanding the ultimate end to which it was put during WWII).

As for assimilation, there is no question that Jewish refusal to assimilate and adopt Christianity contributed to the prejudice. But had they assimilated, they would no longer have been Jews anymore, IMO.  Ultimately, I'm  sure you understand that, like any other political effort, Jews were used to rally Germans around a particular political party and there really was no "Jewish problem" which required any "solution".

Do you think they should have assimilated?


----------



## GHook93

germanguy said:


> Made my avatar...always wanted to have a flag.
> 
> Hee...and please nobody tells the federal president, as the use of this flag is limited by law to services and buildings of the german government.
> 
> But now to something completely different: the subject of this thread.
> 
> Before I do get applause from the wrong ones:
> That I do not agree with Goldhagen does not mean I do support in any way hate speech or the denial of the Holocaust.
> 
> I personally believe that Goldhagen´s book had it´s merits:
> His central thesis is uncomfortable enough, that the Germans started a vivid debate about it.
> 
> This at last is a very good thing, as certain details described by Goldhagen are correct and well written.
> 
> But I still do not see, that Germans are the predestined killers of the Jews.
> 
> We all have to face the fact, that we evolved monkeys are a cruel and bloodthirsty species. And we all have to fight this demon by using the most important organ we have: our brain.
> 
> Regards
> the germanguy



So quickly you forget the first crusade! This is what many Jewish scholars call the First German Jewish Holocaust!

Persecution of Jews in the First Crusade - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


----------



## The Rabbi

germanguy said:


> The Rabbi said:
> 
> 
> 
> On the contrary I found Goldhagen's book very persuasive.  He makes the case that non-Jewish Germans regarded Jews as alien, that their existence in Germany constituted a problem that needed a solution.  Their extermination was simply an extreme conclusion carried out by a small number but acquiesced to by virtually everyone.
> But just as WWI and its trauma paved teh way for Hitler, so too WW2 paved the way for a serious re-examination of German attitudes towards almost everything.
> The good consequence is that Germans are probably teh least anti semitic in Europe.  The bad consequence is that legitimate issues cannot be discussed without referring to Nazi policy.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dear Rabbi,
> 
> persuasive yes, but he is rather very selective with his sources.
> 
> So it was common in nearly every european state in the 17th, 18th or 19th century, that jews formed a distinct and somewhat "alien" group. In France they became citizens after the revolution.
> In most german states this may differ, but in general between 1815 and 1840 in most german states Jews either had de facto the same rights as other subjects of the respective prince or had them by edict.
> When Germany was unified in 1871 all german Jews got the same rights as every other german citizen.
> As said, within the army (and in the juridical system) jews were still either not allowed or not accepted. But in every other field they assimilated very well.
> 
> But you must see regional differences. There were still rural parts, were jews still kept for their own and did not assimilate. If you had asked what people thought in these parts, you will find antisemitism.
> Also, there always was antisemitism on the rise during times of economic crisis. But as France had proven with it´s Deyfuss Affaire, antisemitism was not limited to Germany.
> I would sum up these under "christian prejudice". So were there constant fears of small businessmen of the bigger jewish warehouses etc.
> But nothing of these was found only and exclusively in Germany, so I do not follow Goldhagen in this.
> 
> Regards
> the germanguy
Click to expand...


Except that rabid anti-semitism was prominent in the universities as well.
Look, my father in law was born in Hamburg.  His father was born in Heinebach, which is a noplace south of Kassel.  The family moved there in the 1600s.  He had uncles who fought and died in WWI for the Kaiser.  Although they were observant, they were very well assimilated into German culture.
Yes, there was worse anti semitism in the rural areas.  But that does not explain the speed with which anti semitic laws were adopted in the universities and professions.  The legal profession had no trouble ejecting Jewish lawyers and judges, even though there were many of them.  Universities had no trouble dismissing their Jewish faculty, even though they were among the best there.
I do not think Germany was unique in its anti semitism.  Simply that they lost the war and had hard conditions placed on them by the allies, which paved the way for Hitler (this was the explanation my wife's grandfather favored).


----------



## germanguy

jillian said:


> germanguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Rabbi said:
> 
> 
> 
> On the contrary I found Goldhagen's book very persuasive.  He makes the case that non-Jewish Germans regarded Jews as alien, that their existence in Germany constituted a problem that needed a solution.  Their extermination was simply an extreme conclusion carried out by a small number but acquiesced to by virtually everyone.
> But just as WWI and its trauma paved teh way for Hitler, so too WW2 paved the way for a serious re-examination of German attitudes towards almost everything.
> The good consequence is that Germans are probably teh least anti semitic in Europe.  The bad consequence is that legitimate issues cannot be discussed without referring to Nazi policy.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dear Rabbi,
> 
> persuasive yes, but he is rather very selective with his sources.
> 
> So it was common in nearly every european state in the 17th, 18th or 19th century, that jews formed a distinct and somewhat "alien" group. In France they became citizens after the revolution.
> In most german states this may differ, but in general between 1815 and 1840 in most german states Jews either had de facto the same rights as other subjects of the respective prince or had them by edict.
> When Germany was unified in 1871 all german Jews got the same rights as every other german citizen.
> As said, within the army (and in the juridical system) jews were still either not allowed or not accepted. But in every other field they assimilated very well.
> 
> But you must see regional differences. There were still rural parts, were jews still kept for their own and did not assimilate. If you had asked what people thought in these parts, you will find antisemitism.
> Also, there always was antisemitism on the rise during times of economic crisis. But as France had proven with it´s Deyfuss Affaire, antisemitism was not limited to Germany.
> I would sum up these under "christian prejudice". So were there constant fears of small businessmen of the bigger jewish warehouses etc.
> But nothing of these was found only and exclusively in Germany, so I do not follow Goldhagen in this.
> 
> Regards
> the germanguy
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> There was nothing new about anti-semitism. the Nazis only perfected the means of addressing the problem. And like everything else Germans do, they were meticulous in their efforts. (That's not a negative stereotype, btw... it's just I happen to respect that aspect of German culture.. notwithstanding the ultimate end to which it was put during WWII).
> 
> As for assimilation, there is no question that Jewish refusal to assimilate and adopt Christianity contributed to the prejudice. But had they assimilated, they would no longer have been Jews anymore, IMO.  Ultimately, I'm  sure you understand that, like any other political effort, Jews were used to rally Germans around a particular political party and there really was no "Jewish problem" which required any "solution".
> 
> Do you think they should have assimilated?
Click to expand...


Depends how you define assimilation.
In regards of the Jews it was a two - way thing.
They needed to be accepted as equal citizens and they needed to accept german citizenship.
But actually there was no proper distinction between a german jew and a non-jewish german. The german jews formed an important part of the german culture (just see how they added to the success of Hollywood - Billy Wilder and Lubitsch I only name).
So they were mostly not someone apart, but in the heart of it. We have thrown that away and this is the even sadder part of the story.

Before the 19th century this was different. In the best cases they were "Schutzjuden", special subjects under protection of the Emperor or local king / prince and therefore with a somewhat shaky status. Also they had limited rights and certain duties to fulfil.
In the middle ages this was even worse, when they were in ghettos and subject to constant danger in many parts.

So, in the period when the nation states were formed, the vast majority of jews in germany became german jews. Somewhat restrained still, but undoubted an important part of what germany was then.
So actually antisemitism formed a problem where there mostly was no problem any more.

IMO the Holocaust changed that deceisively, as now Zionism gave a way out of this process. But with that I touch thin ice, as my knowledge about this subject is limited.

regards
the germanguy


----------



## germanguy

GHook93 said:


> germanguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Made my avatar...always wanted to have a flag.
> 
> Hee...and please nobody tells the federal president, as the use of this flag is limited by law to services and buildings of the german government.
> 
> But now to something completely different: the subject of this thread.
> 
> Before I do get applause from the wrong ones:
> That I do not agree with Goldhagen does not mean I do support in any way hate speech or the denial of the Holocaust.
> 
> I personally believe that Goldhagen´s book had it´s merits:
> His central thesis is uncomfortable enough, that the Germans started a vivid debate about it.
> 
> This at last is a very good thing, as certain details described by Goldhagen are correct and well written.
> 
> But I still do not see, that Germans are the predestined killers of the Jews.
> 
> We all have to face the fact, that we evolved monkeys are a cruel and bloodthirsty species. And we all have to fight this demon by using the most important organ we have: our brain.
> 
> Regards
> the germanguy
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So quickly you forget the first crusades! This is what many Jewish scholars call the First German Jewish Holocaust!
> 
> Persecution of Jews in the First Crusade - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Click to expand...


I have not forgotten this, but I really doubt, that germany as a nation or a nation state was already existing then.


----------



## germanguy

The Rabbi said:


> germanguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Rabbi said:
> 
> 
> 
> On the contrary I found Goldhagen's book very persuasive.  He makes the case that non-Jewish Germans regarded Jews as alien, that their existence in Germany constituted a problem that needed a solution.  Their extermination was simply an extreme conclusion carried out by a small number but acquiesced to by virtually everyone.
> But just as WWI and its trauma paved teh way for Hitler, so too WW2 paved the way for a serious re-examination of German attitudes towards almost everything.
> The good consequence is that Germans are probably teh least anti semitic in Europe.  The bad consequence is that legitimate issues cannot be discussed without referring to Nazi policy.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dear Rabbi,
> 
> persuasive yes, but he is rather very selective with his sources.
> 
> So it was common in nearly every european state in the 17th, 18th or 19th century, that jews formed a distinct and somewhat "alien" group. In France they became citizens after the revolution.
> In most german states this may differ, but in general between 1815 and 1840 in most german states Jews either had de facto the same rights as other subjects of the respective prince or had them by edict.
> When Germany was unified in 1871 all german Jews got the same rights as every other german citizen.
> As said, within the army (and in the juridical system) jews were still either not allowed or not accepted. But in every other field they assimilated very well.
> 
> But you must see regional differences. There were still rural parts, were jews still kept for their own and did not assimilate. If you had asked what people thought in these parts, you will find antisemitism.
> Also, there always was antisemitism on the rise during times of economic crisis. But as France had proven with it´s Deyfuss Affaire, antisemitism was not limited to Germany.
> I would sum up these under "christian prejudice". So were there constant fears of small businessmen of the bigger jewish warehouses etc.
> But nothing of these was found only and exclusively in Germany, so I do not follow Goldhagen in this.
> 
> Regards
> the germanguy
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Except that rabid anti-semitism was prominent in the universities as well.
> Look, my father in law was born in Hamburg.  His father was born in Heinebach, which is a noplace south of Kassel.  The family moved there in the 1600s.  He had uncles who fought and died in WWI for the Kaiser.  Although they were observant, they were very well assimilated into German culture.
> Yes, there was worse anti semitism in the rural areas.  But that does not explain the speed with which anti semitic laws were adopted in the universities and professions.  The legal profession had no trouble ejecting Jewish lawyers and judges, even though there were many of them.  Universities had no trouble dismissing their Jewish faculty, even though they were among the best there.
> I do not think Germany was unique in its anti semitism.  Simply that they lost the war and had hard conditions placed on them by the allies, which paved the way for Hitler (this was the explanation my wife's grandfather favored).
Click to expand...


I agree with that. And I only have theories about this.
Universities then were limited to a small elite. 
A small elite of people who knew only exclusivity would save their positions. 
The military was eqally antisemitic, but both did not include killing all jews in their antisemitism. I once met an very old guy who was a member of a so - called "Verbindung" a kind of students club with distinctive nationalistic and patriotic views. He seriously complained that Hitler had made any antisemitism impossible for the coming time.
After a short shock iasked how this was meant and he explained me, that of course a jewish lawyer, officer or judge had been inacceptable, but to kill them was also not the proper idea. 
IMO at universities etc. the antisemitism was meant to keep jews out, as it was before the emancipation. They were still seen by some as apart and special. 

Still, when you radicalize this, some people found it easy to join the SS (the higher ranks were normally superbly educated) and work on a neat and proper Final Solution.
And this still gives me shivers.

Regards
the germanguy


----------



## The Rabbi

You realize you pretty much validated Goldhagen's hypothesis, right?


----------



## mdn2000

germanguy said:


> mdn2000 said:
> 
> 
> 
> My Lady Rachel, you posts seem good, I dont have time to respond in detail nor do I feel a need to. However a fact of history right to the end is ordinary germans willingly participated in the holocaust. Sure some through fear, but the majority that participated did so because they wanted to. Not because they were tricked by Nazi propaganda but simply because this is what the german people beleived. This is documented. The hatred did not come from Hitler, it came from German culture, a culture that developed well before the 1900's.
> 
> Hitler's Willing Executioners (1996) is a history book by American writer Daniel Goldhagen
> 
> Read this book, its the most important book on the subject, well maybe the second most important next to the "The Black Book".
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well , as a german I am somewhat biased in this question, but nonetheless an answer must be given to this.
> 
> First of all, I totally disagree with Goldhagen. I have read the book, but I do not follow it´s conclusions.
> The theory, that the Germans had a culture with an antisemitism incorporated, that was directed to exterminate, is at least doubtful.
> Also, the explanation why antisemitism was not virulent after 1945 is also plain stupid.
> It is because we were culturally educated by the US and the British to not continue this.
> I do not buy this.
> Then any danger would end with the germans.
> 
> In 1900, if you would have asked any european, who might try to kill every Jew in Europe, most people would have guessed Russia or France. Germany would have been perhaps on a fourth or fifth place.
> 
> On the contrary, the jewish community in Germany was very upper-middle-class and therefore well connected with the elite.
> In then Germany the jewish population was nearly totally assimilated within the rest of the society. Perhaps a jewish member of the high nobility was still seen as very far away and a jewish Field Marshal would have been still unthinklable. Nonetheless, before WWI, nobody would have thought about killing every german jew.
> 
> That 30 years later it would have been thinkable to get rid of the german jews, was very far off the public mind.
> 
> The Holocaust simply did not happen because every German decided to kill the jewish neighbours. Or already wanted to.
> It sunk gradually in the peoples mind and in wartime most germans hid behind their own problems.
> 
> The separation of the Jews started early after 1933 and became very gradually worse.
> It was difficult to judge, where all the new laws were directed.
> I.e.: After 1933 german jewish pupils were excluded from certain sport festivities in school.
> This might have caused some irritation, but is at least not so bad. Then it was forbidden for german jews as doctors to pratice on the so-called "Aryan Germans". Might irritate, but also at least not so dangerous. So gradually the jewish part of the germans was step by step separated from the rest and the people got used to the idea that these jews were distinctively different. And they were not so visible anymore.
> There has been some form of protest, but this was easily quelled. Any form of discontent might have been reported to the almighty Gestapo and therefore people kept their mouth shut.
> Also, a certain antisemitism was there as well. A lot of large businesses were owned by jews, so some agreed, that they had too much influence and so on. Also, as most jews were rather middle-class, a certain grudge against the alledgedly richer and cleverer jews was there as well. (Dr. Goldstein is rich, my savings are gone due to inflaltion - it has to do with him beeing Jew).
> 
> And everything of these things was done by proper bureaucratic procedure.
> Behind this a lot of people have easily hidden (An order is an order !).
> 
> The real bloody work was done by a rather small minority of either very brutal or very cool and coldhearted killers apart from Germany. It is no surprise, that all extermination camps were in Poland. What was in Germany was still gruesome enough, but these were also apart from the cities.
> 
> And we should never forget, that although Germany had the biggest and decisive part in this, a lot of people from other nationalities wholeheartly helped with the killing. Some had no other choice (beeing occupied) some plainly refused (Denmark) some were ideologically on the same level (Croatia back then).
> 
> Therefore, my answer would be:
> 
> A certain number of factors were already there, a lot of factors were personalized in Hitler himself and a lot of things were coincidence.
> 
> I would bet, that nearly every society can single out a certain group (Peasants, Intellectuals, Muslims, Jews - whatever) and slowly degrade them.
> From there to the will of total extinction it is only a small step.
> 
> There is only one small and nearly invisible line after which barbarism begins.
> Therefore I always feel uneasy, when a certain group is singled out as scapegoat for whatever. I think it already starts at this point.
> 
> What now exactly lied behind the antisemistism of Hitler I still can not grasp. If you read his works it all runs down "It were the Jews". If you then firmly believe this, the next logical step is to get rid of them.
> By the Way, Hitler was also not very fond of Christianity (made the germans too soft), Liberals, Conservatives, the Disabled, the Blacks, Homosexuals, Sinti and Roma - they also died in the camps, but formed a too small number individually to be remembered. It were not only six million jews, but also nearly 3,4 million soviet soldiers and the above groups which were considered as unworthy to live. The number of people killed in concentration camps are about 11 million.
> And for these, there was no preexisting hatred or cultural anti-whatever within the german culture.
> 
> Never forget: The first who died in German Concetration Camps were .... Germans.
> 
> Regards
> 
> the germanguy
Click to expand...


I did not read the book to take the authors perspective nor did I pay attention to any theory, I should of qualified this but I had forgotten about this aspect. I just think if you want a book that discusses the history of germany leading to the holocaust this book fills in some big gaps. I dont need a scholar to tell me why human nature is what it is. 

The holocaust although a unique event in history was just an example of human nature that exsists in all people, given the right set of circumstances we may see this type of human nature repeated.

I dont disagree with what you posted and as far as a theory goes I would have to go back to the book and see, what was usefull in the book is history not stated elsewhere. The history of the 1800's which is forgotten, ignored, or never known by so many when they speak of the holocaust.

I would like to defend the book with some clever lines and some nice quotes but I am traveling and my copy is at home, what I will say is this book is definately the best book on understanding. 

Hitler's Willing Executioners (1996) is a history book by American writer Daniel Goldhagen

I ignored the theory, for me it was a useful source of some history I did not know.


----------



## germanguy

The Rabbi said:


> You realize you pretty much validated Goldhagen's hypothesis, right?



Did I ? 
On the contrary.
Goldhagen stated, that the antisemitism in Germany was different from anywhere else. It already incorporated the idea of the extinction of the jews. 
My point was that antisemitism existed, but was rather aimed to limit the emancpation of jews or to prevent them of "intruding" elite circles like the military or the judicary in germany. 
I really doubt that this was much different in other countries in Europe around 1900. 
I have no numbers, but the fact that there simply were not much high-ranking officers of jewish origin in France, Russia or Britain tells us something. 

I do not think, that a majority of germans around 1910 would have agreed that there was a "jewish question" awaiting a solution. Many disliked jews, many saw them as strange or apart from other germans and many simply did not bother.

Only after World War I, when the Nazis became a political force, politics and antisemitism were successfully connected. And still, a lot of Nazis were "only" interested in getting the Jews out of Germany. 

I remember what my grandmother told me about this time. 
She had jewish neighbours she neither liked or disliked. That these neighbours were orderly and behaving themselves according to the standards of the time was far more important to her than their religion. She more disliked catholics, beeing a protestant.

On the other hand she always told me, that she disliked the jewish influence on the economy. To cut that back seemed to her a good idea. (As well as cutting back any foreign influence).

When her neighbours emigrated to the Netherlands she helped them to smuggle out cash-money (so she told). She told me, that she did not understand why the government said that her nice and orderly neighbours had to leave the country. But furious opposition also was not her thing. 

She simply did not connect her general antisemitism to her neighbours. 
At no time she had the idea of killing all Jews or even that there was an existing problem crossed her mind. After 1945 she met anything about the Holocaust with disbelief. Only when she was confronted with the facts, she believed it. 

And that is my point I hold against Goldhagens thesis:

There was antisemitism in Germany and it was widespread. Nontheless, it was not automatically leading to the Holocaust. This needed more ingredients.

Also, Goldhagen states, that Germany after the war became a liberal democracy and learned it´s lesson. 
And there I see the problem of his thesis.

For centuries the germans had uphold antisemitism, nurtured it and lived it out in the Holocaust, when having the chance.
Then, after total defeat, they were able to make a total turn, embrace western ideas and build up a remarkably liberal democracy. 

Or to put it simpler: Before 1945 we were culturally a bunch of people eager to kill, when given the chance and then after 1945, we had learned our lesson and shook off this attitude. (Or so we hope)

I think this is too simple.

The german democracy of 1949 had roots and traditions going back to it´s own history and was therefore not necessarily something to be totally invented anew. Also, there were political forces using antisemitism, but only the Nazis made a political program out of it.
This was disgusting enough, but still not aiming for the Holocaust. 

I think that Goldhagens answer to the question why the Holocaust happened is therefore too simple. He only cites the sources suppporting his thesis and ignores other sources contrdicting it. 

Notwithstanding, his thesis has it´s merits, as you have to look closely in to Germanys past to understand what happened. 

My personal thesis is, that any society can single out a certain group and kill it.
This happened in Ruanda, in Yugoslavia and a lot of other places. We are alltogether quite bloodthirsty apes. 
But in Germany this was done by one of the biggest industrial powers and by one of the most skilled and sophisticated people. This made a difference.

regards
ze germanguy


----------



## The Rabbi

I dont recall Goldhagen saying that German anti semitism was different.  My memory may be poor.  But he does say that non-Jewish Germans believed the existence of Jewish Germans constituted a problem.  You've pretty much said this yourself.
The other countries werent a lot better, look at Drefuss in France.  But an unfortunate combination of factors led to the Endloessung.
My favorite Holocaust memorial btw is in Altona.  You should see it sometime.


----------



## germanguy

mdn2000 said:


> germanguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> mdn2000 said:
> 
> 
> 
> My Lady Rachel, you posts seem good, I dont have time to respond in detail nor do I feel a need to. However a fact of history right to the end is ordinary germans willingly participated in the holocaust. Sure some through fear, but the majority that participated did so because they wanted to. Not because they were tricked by Nazi propaganda but simply because this is what the german people beleived. This is documented. The hatred did not come from Hitler, it came from German culture, a culture that developed well before the 1900's.
> 
> Hitler's Willing Executioners (1996) is a history book by American writer Daniel Goldhagen
> 
> Read this book, its the most important book on the subject, well maybe the second most important next to the "The Black Book".
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well , as a german I am somewhat biased in this question, but nonetheless an answer must be given to this.
> 
> First of all, I totally disagree with Goldhagen. I have read the book, but I do not follow it´s conclusions.
> The theory, that the Germans had a culture with an antisemitism incorporated, that was directed to exterminate, is at least doubtful.
> Also, the explanation why antisemitism was not virulent after 1945 is also plain stupid.
> It is because we were culturally educated by the US and the British to not continue this.
> I do not buy this.
> Then any danger would end with the germans.
> 
> In 1900, if you would have asked any european, who might try to kill every Jew in Europe, most people would have guessed Russia or France. Germany would have been perhaps on a fourth or fifth place.
> 
> On the contrary, the jewish community in Germany was very upper-middle-class and therefore well connected with the elite.
> In then Germany the jewish population was nearly totally assimilated within the rest of the society. Perhaps a jewish member of the high nobility was still seen as very far away and a jewish Field Marshal would have been still unthinklable. Nonetheless, before WWI, nobody would have thought about killing every german jew.
> 
> That 30 years later it would have been thinkable to get rid of the german jews, was very far off the public mind.
> 
> The Holocaust simply did not happen because every German decided to kill the jewish neighbours. Or already wanted to.
> It sunk gradually in the peoples mind and in wartime most germans hid behind their own problems.
> 
> The separation of the Jews started early after 1933 and became very gradually worse.
> It was difficult to judge, where all the new laws were directed.
> I.e.: After 1933 german jewish pupils were excluded from certain sport festivities in school.
> This might have caused some irritation, but is at least not so bad. Then it was forbidden for german jews as doctors to pratice on the so-called "Aryan Germans". Might irritate, but also at least not so dangerous. So gradually the jewish part of the germans was step by step separated from the rest and the people got used to the idea that these jews were distinctively different. And they were not so visible anymore.
> There has been some form of protest, but this was easily quelled. Any form of discontent might have been reported to the almighty Gestapo and therefore people kept their mouth shut.
> Also, a certain antisemitism was there as well. A lot of large businesses were owned by jews, so some agreed, that they had too much influence and so on. Also, as most jews were rather middle-class, a certain grudge against the alledgedly richer and cleverer jews was there as well. (Dr. Goldstein is rich, my savings are gone due to inflaltion - it has to do with him beeing Jew).
> 
> And everything of these things was done by proper bureaucratic procedure.
> Behind this a lot of people have easily hidden (An order is an order !).
> 
> The real bloody work was done by a rather small minority of either very brutal or very cool and coldhearted killers apart from Germany. It is no surprise, that all extermination camps were in Poland. What was in Germany was still gruesome enough, but these were also apart from the cities.
> 
> And we should never forget, that although Germany had the biggest and decisive part in this, a lot of people from other nationalities wholeheartly helped with the killing. Some had no other choice (beeing occupied) some plainly refused (Denmark) some were ideologically on the same level (Croatia back then).
> 
> Therefore, my answer would be:
> 
> A certain number of factors were already there, a lot of factors were personalized in Hitler himself and a lot of things were coincidence.
> 
> I would bet, that nearly every society can single out a certain group (Peasants, Intellectuals, Muslims, Jews - whatever) and slowly degrade them.
> From there to the will of total extinction it is only a small step.
> 
> There is only one small and nearly invisible line after which barbarism begins.
> Therefore I always feel uneasy, when a certain group is singled out as scapegoat for whatever. I think it already starts at this point.
> 
> What now exactly lied behind the antisemistism of Hitler I still can not grasp. If you read his works it all runs down "It were the Jews". If you then firmly believe this, the next logical step is to get rid of them.
> By the Way, Hitler was also not very fond of Christianity (made the germans too soft), Liberals, Conservatives, the Disabled, the Blacks, Homosexuals, Sinti and Roma - they also died in the camps, but formed a too small number individually to be remembered. It were not only six million jews, but also nearly 3,4 million soviet soldiers and the above groups which were considered as unworthy to live. The number of people killed in concentration camps are about 11 million.
> And for these, there was no preexisting hatred or cultural anti-whatever within the german culture.
> 
> Never forget: The first who died in German Concetration Camps were .... Germans.
> 
> Regards
> 
> the germanguy
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I did not read the book to take the authors perspective nor did I pay attention to any theory, I should of qualified this but I had forgotten about this aspect. I just think if you want a book that discusses the history of germany leading to the holocaust this book fills in some big gaps. I dont need a scholar to tell me why human nature is what it is.
> 
> The holocaust although a unique event in history was just an example of human nature that exsists in all people, given the right set of circumstances we may see this type of human nature repeated.
> 
> I dont disagree with what you posted and as far as a theory goes I would have to go back to the book and see, what was usefull in the book is history not stated elsewhere. The history of the 1800's which is forgotten, ignored, or never known by so many when they speak of the holocaust.
> 
> I would like to defend the book with some clever lines and some nice quotes but I am traveling and my copy is at home, what I will say is this book is definately the best book on understanding.
> 
> Hitler's Willing Executioners (1996) is a history book by American writer Daniel Goldhagen
> 
> I ignored the theory, for me it was a useful source of some history I did not know.
Click to expand...


Hm,
I also agree about the fact, that the book has it´s merits, but from a purely professional point of view (I am an historian as well), I see a lot of technical flaws.
I do not mean, that Goldhagen bend facts or something like that. 
But, especially where he describes the actions of Polizeibataillon 101, sometimes historical facts and narrative parts get intermingled. Also I can not follow some of his conclusions. 

Goldhagen writes with a very good style and therefore his book is better readable than other, but it is by far not the best book about the Holocaust. IMHO.

In the 1990s this book shook loose a large debate. It made front-page stories and got into national news as top story. But if you start to debate this book and it´s technical flaws, you easily are in uncomfortable neighborhood to far-right idiots. Also, the techno-babble of historians caneasily bore you to death.

Notwithstanding, I can not follow his central thesis of an "exterminational anti-semitism" deeply-rooted in german culture.
It is a little bit like telling a story from the end on. The end then looks inevitable and you only see what lead to this end. That there were twists and turns and other possibilities is then overseen.

In that regard Goldhagen thinks like a lawyer, who rolls up the case from the deed backwards. 

Regards
ze germanguy


----------



## Sunni Man

I think it is wrong to blame the German people or any other nationality for having anti-semitism.

In reality, they are the victims and anti-semitism is just a symptom.

I have posted before a list of 109 countries that the Jews have been expelled from since 300 A.D.

This begs several questions:

What do the jews do that makes people turn against them? 

The jews have been expelled from just about every country and culture thay come into contact with throughout history. Why?

Is there something in their character or demeanor that causes anti-semitism to rise up out of ordinary people?

It seems that non jewish people are the victims of anti-semitism.

That iit s forced upon them by the jews.

These books are written trying to explain anti-semitism and it's rise among various people and nations.

This is wrong, because it is focusing on the victims.

When the real focus should be on the jews themselves. Who are the true source of all anti-semitism.


----------



## germanguy

Sunni Man said:


> I think it is wrong to blame the German people or any other nationality for having anti-semitism.
> 
> In reality, they are the victims and anti-semitism is just a symptom.
> 
> I have posted before a list of 109 countries that the Jews have been expelled from since 300 A.D.
> 
> This begs several questions:
> 
> What do the jews do that makes people turn against them?
> 
> The jews have been expelled from just about every country and culture thay come into contact with throughout history. Why?
> 
> Is there something in their character or demeanor that causes anti-semitism to rise up out of ordinary people?
> 
> It seems that non jewish people are the victims of anti-semitism.
> 
> That iit s forced upon them by the jews.
> 
> These books are written trying to explain anti-semitism and it's rise among various people and nations.
> 
> This is wrong, because it is focusing on the victims.
> 
> When the real focus should be on the jews themselves. Who are the true source of all anti-semitism.



Freedom of speech is such a sweet thing to have. Sometimes not.

Your argument reads the same as when woman have been raped. 
They surely have asked for it, otherwise nobody would have raped them.

You make me sick 

no regards
ze germanguy


----------



## Sunni Man

Anti-semitism just didn't appear out of thin air.

The jews brought it with them from the last country they were kicked out of.

Everywhere they go. The jews spread anti-semitism on unsuspecting people and nations.

They never take the blame for what they have unleashed and blame the victims.


----------



## jillian

germanguy said:


> Depends how you define assimilation.
> In regards of the Jews it was a two - way thing.
> They needed to be accepted as equal citizens and they needed to accept german citizenship.
> But actually there was no proper distinction between a german jew and a non-jewish german. The german jews formed an important part of the german culture (just see how they added to the success of Hollywood - Billy Wilder and Lubitsch I only name).
> So they were mostly not someone apart, but in the heart of it. We have thrown that away and this is the even sadder part of the story.
> 
> Before the 19th century this was different. In the best cases they were "Schutzjuden", special subjects under protection of the Emperor or local king / prince and therefore with a somewhat shaky status. Also they had limited rights and certain duties to fulfil.
> In the middle ages this was even worse, when they were in ghettos and subject to constant danger in many parts.
> 
> So, in the period when the nation states were formed, the vast majority of jews in germany became german jews. Somewhat restrained still, but undoubted an important part of what germany was then.
> So actually antisemitism formed a problem where there mostly was no problem any more.
> 
> IMO the Holocaust changed that deceisively, as now Zionism gave a way out of this process. But with that I touch thin ice, as my knowledge about this subject is limited.
> 
> regards
> the germanguy



You have hit on a number of very interesting points. I think you are absolutely correct that there was no proper distinction between Jewish and non-Jewish Germans pre-WWII (unlike in the Soviet Union where there were separate passports for Soviets and Jews). That Jews were an integral part of German society and made huge contributions to, and derived great benefit from, German society is incontrovertible. I think that is part of the horror of what later happened post WWI ... at least from a Jewish perspective. It served as a reminder that if things go bad economically or a scapegoat is needed, Jews are not safe. It is one of the reasons that when certain people say they don't understand the need for a Jewish state or think Jews would ever be safe living in a muslim dominated society (e.g, after natural birth rate differences would leave an arab israel if there were ever a "right of return" or a single state solution in the mid east) that it is perceived as anti-semitism.

I have enjoyed watching your conversation on this topic.


----------



## mdn2000

Germanguy, I have not read your posts in depth, I scanned through them and can see that I agree. 

As far as books go I am always open for suggestions. I kind of concentrate on old books. I like to see how people thought back when the events happened.

Many events in history lead up to the Holocaust, in order to understand I must read not one book, not two, but many.

Most people dont have the proper perspective to understand racism and prejudice, its not simply hating for no reason at all, at least when a whole culture is prejudiced. 

Goldhagen I beleive stated in his book one must be able to have the perspective of the people of the time in question.

I look at what was their education, their beliefs, superstitions, did they beleive in ghosts, were they afraid of demons in the Teutonic forest (I hope I got that right). What did the religions teach, after all that was the only place anyone got an education at least speaking of the masses. What laws exsisted, where did the Jews live.

The facts are the holocaust happened for many, many, events in history, the money grabbers may of originated from the Rothschilds owning banks, making a fortune from nothing, this created envy, or how about the way the jews dressed, Hitler even stated in his book that the jews dressed bizarre. Imagine the uneducated man of the late 1800's seeing a crazy jew dressed all in black, huge beard, braids, crosses, dressed real crazy, saying his crazy prayer, bowing repeatedly, and than on passover this nut paints the blood of a sheep or goat around the door to his house, I imagine that would send the uneducated man just stepping out of the dark ages for a loop, and it did. 

Just look at how people today beleive anything they are told and how hateful they are of those they disagree with, the global warming nuts are good example of this, imagine the same people just stepping out of the dark ages watching a tradional jew paint his door with blood and than going to church to listen to the preist bad mouth the jews and than on his way home he hears that the jews are the problem for his lack of work or food.

The 1800's led to the holocaust
The dark ages led to the holocaust
Hard times and politics played their part
through in a cup of propaganda
incite the masses a bit by being very different
a little human nature for good measure
throw in a war or two
advance all of europe into the industrial age in an exrtremely short time

The holocaust can be repeated, it was human nature. I see little signs of hate everywhere but more so when some are confronted with facts they are unable to argue with, talk about bringing out the worst of some people.


----------



## Sunni Man

Even though anti-semitism seems illogical.

It seems to be the norm.

Whether the jews are in europe, asia, or the middle east. They create anti-semitism.

Anti-semitism pre dates Islam. So you can't blame it on that religion.

Different cultures, languages, religions, governments, and races, have all been the victims of jewish induced anti-semitism.

Again, what is it about the jews, that seems to always give birth to anti-semitism, no matter where they go?


----------



## Charles Stucker

Sunni Man said:


> Again, what is it about the jews, that seems to always give birth to anti-semitism, no matter where they go?


They maintain their own language, culture and customs, so they stand out. 
Prior to the modern era most people were terribly set against anything different.
Different = Bad
Thus since the Jews were different, by virtue of not fitting in, they had to be bad.
Simple bigotry, that's all.


----------



## The Rabbi

That doesnt really wash.  The Amish do all those things but I've never heard anti-Amish sentiment.  The oversees Chinese maintain their own language, customs and appearance but I haven't seen anti-Chinese sentiment in this country since the 1920s or so.
So why the difference?


----------



## Charles Stucker

The Rabbi said:


> That doesnt really wash.  The Amish do all those things but I've never heard anti-Amish sentiment.  The oversees Chinese maintain their own language, customs and appearance but I haven't seen anti-Chinese sentiment in this country since the 1920s or so.
> So why the difference?


Sorry for not being clear. I was answering why the Jews were hates throughout history. 
The US is a modern state in an era which has a history of generally greater tolerance. 
Amish are rural farmers; the groups I'm familiar with are predominately in Pennsylvania. They have simple lifestyles which few envy. They live apart so people are not confronted by them daily, and when one does travel through their lands they appear like something form a history lesson.
Chinese still have some people who are jealous of their success and hence distrust/dislike them. Watch tech fields until you see someone complaining about the "Chinese guy" who got the job because they were Chinese and would work for peanuts. It's just a short step from there to intolerance. It is not so noticeable because it gets lost in the general tension between blacks and whites, a tension often exacerbated by black leaders looking to gain political support from their rabble rousing.


----------



## Sunni Man

I would like to see all forms of anti-semitism stamped out.

But untill the jews figure out what they are doing to cause it.

I am afraid it will continue to keep comming back and victimizing both jews and non jews alike.


----------



## germanguy

jillian said:


> germanguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Depends how you define assimilation.
> In regards of the Jews it was a two - way thing.
> They needed to be accepted as equal citizens and they needed to accept german citizenship.
> But actually there was no proper distinction between a german jew and a non-jewish german. The german jews formed an important part of the german culture (just see how they added to the success of Hollywood - Billy Wilder and Lubitsch I only name).
> So they were mostly not someone apart, but in the heart of it. We have thrown that away and this is the even sadder part of the story.
> 
> Before the 19th century this was different. In the best cases they were "Schutzjuden", special subjects under protection of the Emperor or local king / prince and therefore with a somewhat shaky status. Also they had limited rights and certain duties to fulfil.
> In the middle ages this was even worse, when they were in ghettos and subject to constant danger in many parts.
> 
> So, in the period when the nation states were formed, the vast majority of jews in germany became german jews. Somewhat restrained still, but undoubted an important part of what germany was then.
> So actually antisemitism formed a problem where there mostly was no problem any more.
> 
> IMO the Holocaust changed that deceisively, as now Zionism gave a way out of this process. But with that I touch thin ice, as my knowledge about this subject is limited.
> 
> regards
> the germanguy
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You have hit on a number of very interesting points. I think you are absolutely correct that there was no proper distinction between Jewish and non-Jewish Germans pre-WWII (unlike in the Soviet Union where there were separate passports for Soviets and Jews). That Jews were an integral part of German society and made huge contributions to, and derived great benefit from, German society is incontrovertible. I think that is part of the horror of what later happened post WWI ... at least from a Jewish perspective. It served as a reminder that if things go bad economically or a scapegoat is needed, Jews are not safe. It is one of the reasons that when certain people say they don't understand the need for a Jewish state or think Jews would ever be safe living in a muslim dominated society (e.g, after natural birth rate differences would leave an arab israel if there were ever a "right of return" or a single state solution in the mid east) that it is perceived as anti-semitism.
> 
> I have enjoyed watching your conversation on this topic.
Click to expand...


Now we come to a very important point:

The Holocaust and Israel.
Before 1933 nearly every german jew has seen himself undoubtly first and foremost as a german. Most of them were very patriotic and proud of being part of a cultured and respected society. This was not necessarily seen likewise by some germans, so partly this love still was one-sided.
One century before, the great german poet Heinrich Heine (learn german and read his poems. nuff said) was a good example of this mixed status. (*)
Then the Nazis told everybody that jews were no germans and this quite finally ended this lovestory.
After the holocaust, Zionism and the very existence of Israel seemed suddenly a very good idea. In 1929 you needed to be very enthusiastic to settle in Palestine, after 1945 it was rather a matter of life or death.
Therefore - I do believe - what Israel is today it mostly is because of the Holocaust.
Before 1933 the german jews considered themselves to be safe and well within germany.
After 1945 this ended.

Today I know, that a lot Israelis still have a german passport and see this as a safeguard in case of a new war in the Middle East.
(Germany took away the status as german citizen in 1936 and after 1949 the Fed. Republic cancelled this law. Whoever has german ancestors can easily apply for german citizenship)

Regards
ze germanguy


__________________________________
(*)
I can not help but express my total love and devotion to this poet.
Not only are his poems by far the most beautiful I know, but he also represented everything what is good in germany. Spirit, wit, deep thinking and beautiful romantic poetry.

Read him, read about him - it will enrich your life. Or leave it. He can stand it.

Just to give you an idea, three citations:

Heine exiled to France and was critized, because his republican views were opposed by some germans as unpatriotic and anti-german.

His answer:

*"Plant the black, red, gold banner at the summit of the German idea, make it the standard of free mankind, and I will shed my dear heart&#8217;s blood for it. Rest assured, I love the Fatherland just as much as you do."*

Also he wrote 1834 these prophetic words - they give me a shiver everytime i read them.
Imagine: 99 years before Hitler:
*
"Christianity - and that is its greatest merit - has somewhat mitigated that brutal germanic love of war, but it could not destroy it. Should that subduing talisman, the cross, be shattered, the frenzied madness of the ancient warriors, that insane Berserk rage of which Nordic bards have spoken and sung so often, will once more burst into flame. This talisman is fragile, and the day will come when it will collapse miserably. Then the ancient stony gods will rise from the forgotten debris and rub the dust of a thousand years from their eyes, and finally Thor with his giant hammer will jump up and smash the Gothic cathedrals. (...)
Do not smile at my advice -- the advice of a dreamer who warns you against Kantians, Fichteans, and philosophers of nature. Do not smile at the visionary who anticipates the same revolution in the realm of the visible as has taken place in the spiritual. Thought precedes action as lightning precedes thunder. German thunder is of true Germanic character; it is not very nimble, but rumbles along ponderously. Yet, it will come and when you hear a crashing such as never before has been heard in the world's history, then you know that the German thunderbolt has fallen at last. At that uproar the eagles of the air will drop dead, and lions in the remotest deserts of Africa will hide in their royal dens. A play will be performed in Germany which will make the French Revolution look like an innocent idyll."
*

Also he had a sharp wit - which did not make him popular with everybody:
_*"I do not know if she was virtuous, but she was ugly, and with a woman that is half the battle."*_


----------



## mdn2000

Sunni Man said:


> I would like to see all forms of anti-semitism stamped out.
> 
> But untill the jews figure out what they are doing to cause it.
> 
> I am afraid it will continue to keep comming back and victimizing both jews and non jews alike.




Than once we get rid of the Jews, who is next.

The real problem is all the terrorism is committed by Sunni moslems. What are we to do about the Sunni problem.

I cant think of one terrorist who is not a Sunni, when I read of Moslem kills daughter its always a Sunni moslem. 

Without a doubt Sunni Molsems are the worst, Sunni are the radical terrorist.


----------



## mdn2000

germanguy said:


> jillian said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> germanguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Depends how you define assimilation.
> In regards of the Jews it was a two - way thing.
> They needed to be accepted as equal citizens and they needed to accept german citizenship.
> But actually there was no proper distinction between a german jew and a non-jewish german. The german jews formed an important part of the german culture (just see how they added to the success of Hollywood - Billy Wilder and Lubitsch I only name).
> So they were mostly not someone apart, but in the heart of it. We have thrown that away and this is the even sadder part of the story.
> 
> Before the 19th century this was different. In the best cases they were "Schutzjuden", special subjects under protection of the Emperor or local king / prince and therefore with a somewhat shaky status. Also they had limited rights and certain duties to fulfil.
> In the middle ages this was even worse, when they were in ghettos and subject to constant danger in many parts.
> 
> So, in the period when the nation states were formed, the vast majority of jews in germany became german jews. Somewhat restrained still, but undoubted an important part of what germany was then.
> So actually antisemitism formed a problem where there mostly was no problem any more.
> 
> IMO the Holocaust changed that deceisively, as now Zionism gave a way out of this process. But with that I touch thin ice, as my knowledge about this subject is limited.
> 
> regards
> the germanguy
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You have hit on a number of very interesting points. I think you are absolutely correct that there was no proper distinction between Jewish and non-Jewish Germans pre-WWII (unlike in the Soviet Union where there were separate passports for Soviets and Jews). That Jews were an integral part of German society and made huge contributions to, and derived great benefit from, German society is incontrovertible. I think that is part of the horror of what later happened post WWI ... at least from a Jewish perspective. It served as a reminder that if things go bad economically or a scapegoat is needed, Jews are not safe. It is one of the reasons that when certain people say they don't understand the need for a Jewish state or think Jews would ever be safe living in a muslim dominated society (e.g, after natural birth rate differences would leave an arab israel if there were ever a "right of return" or a single state solution in the mid east) that it is perceived as anti-semitism.
> 
> I have enjoyed watching your conversation on this topic.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Now we come to a very important point:
> 
> The Holocaust and Israel.
> Before 1933 nearly every german jew has seen himself undoubtly first and foremost as a german. Most of them were very patriotic and proud of being part of a cultured and respected society. This was not necessarily seen likewise by some germans, so partly this love still was one-sided.
> One century before, the great german poet Heinrich Heine (learn german and read his poems. nuff said) was a good example of this mixed status. (*)
> Then the Nazis told everybody that jews were no germans and this quite finally ended this lovestory.
> After the holocaust, Zionism and the very existence of Israel seemed suddenly a very good idea. In 1929 you needed to be very enthusiastic to settle in Palestine, after 1945 it was rather a matter of life or death.
> Therefore - I do believe - what Israel is today it mostly is because of the Holocaust.
> Before 1933 the german jews considered themselves to be safe and well within germany.
> After 1945 this ended.
> 
> Today I know, that a lot Israelis still have a german passport and see this as a safeguard in case of a new war in the Middle East.
> (Germany took away the status as german citizen in 1936 and after 1949 the Fed. Republic cancelled this law. Whoever has german ancestors can easily apply for german citizenship)
> 
> Regards
> ze germanguy
> 
> 
> __________________________________
> (*)
> I can not help but express my total love and devotion to this poet.
> Not only are his poems by far the most beautiful I know, but he also represented everything what is good in germany. Spirit, wit, deep thinking and beautiful romantic poetry.
> 
> Read him, read about him - it will enrich your life. Or leave it. He can stand it.
> 
> Just to give you an idea, three citations:
> 
> Heine exiled to France and was critized, because his republican views were opposed by some germans as unpatriotic and anti-german.
> 
> His answer:
> 
> *"Plant the black, red, gold banner at the summit of the German idea, make it the standard of free mankind, and I will shed my dear hearts blood for it. Rest assured, I love the Fatherland just as much as you do."*
> 
> Also he wrote 1834 these prophetic words - they give me a shiver everytime i read them.
> Imagine: 99 years before Hitler:
> *
> "Christianity - and that is its greatest merit - has somewhat mitigated that brutal germanic love of war, but it could not destroy it. Should that subduing talisman, the cross, be shattered, the frenzied madness of the ancient warriors, that insane Berserk rage of which Nordic bards have spoken and sung so often, will once more burst into flame. This talisman is fragile, and the day will come when it will collapse miserably. Then the ancient stony gods will rise from the forgotten debris and rub the dust of a thousand years from their eyes, and finally Thor with his giant hammer will jump up and smash the Gothic cathedrals. (...)
> Do not smile at my advice -- the advice of a dreamer who warns you against Kantians, Fichteans, and philosophers of nature. Do not smile at the visionary who anticipates the same revolution in the realm of the visible as has taken place in the spiritual. Thought precedes action as lightning precedes thunder. German thunder is of true Germanic character; it is not very nimble, but rumbles along ponderously. Yet, it will come and when you hear a crashing such as never before has been heard in the world's history, then you know that the German thunderbolt has fallen at last. At that uproar the eagles of the air will drop dead, and lions in the remotest deserts of Africa will hide in their royal dens. A play will be performed in Germany which will make the French Revolution look like an innocent idyll."
> *
> 
> Also he had a sharp wit - which did not make him popular with everybody:
> _*"I do not know if she was virtuous, but she was ugly, and with a woman that is half the battle."*_
Click to expand...


Are you familiar with wagner, I have only heard of him briefly in a book or two about hitler


----------



## Sunni Man

mdn2000 said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> 
> I would like to see all forms of anti-semitism stamped out.
> 
> But untill the jews figure out what they are doing to cause it.
> 
> I am afraid it will continue to keep comming back and victimizing both jews and non jews alike.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Than once we get rid of the Jews, who is next.
Click to expand...

As for me, I never said anything about getting rid of the jews.

I was just asking a question: "Do the jews cause anti-semitism by their behavior?


----------



## germanguy

mdn2000 said:


> germanguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> jillian said:
> 
> 
> 
> You have hit on a number of very interesting points. I think you are absolutely correct that there was no proper distinction between Jewish and non-Jewish Germans pre-WWII (unlike in the Soviet Union where there were separate passports for Soviets and Jews). That Jews were an integral part of German society and made huge contributions to, and derived great benefit from, German society is incontrovertible. I think that is part of the horror of what later happened post WWI ... at least from a Jewish perspective. It served as a reminder that if things go bad economically or a scapegoat is needed, Jews are not safe. It is one of the reasons that when certain people say they don't understand the need for a Jewish state or think Jews would ever be safe living in a muslim dominated society (e.g, after natural birth rate differences would leave an arab israel if there were ever a "right of return" or a single state solution in the mid east) that it is perceived as anti-semitism.
> 
> I have enjoyed watching your conversation on this topic.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Now we come to a very important point:
> 
> The Holocaust and Israel.
> Before 1933 nearly every german jew has seen himself undoubtly first and foremost as a german. Most of them were very patriotic and proud of being part of a cultured and respected society. This was not necessarily seen likewise by some germans, so partly this love still was one-sided.
> One century before, the great german poet Heinrich Heine (learn german and read his poems. nuff said) was a good example of this mixed status. (*)
> Then the Nazis told everybody that jews were no germans and this quite finally ended this lovestory.
> After the holocaust, Zionism and the very existence of Israel seemed suddenly a very good idea. In 1929 you needed to be very enthusiastic to settle in Palestine, after 1945 it was rather a matter of life or death.
> Therefore - I do believe - what Israel is today it mostly is because of the Holocaust.
> Before 1933 the german jews considered themselves to be safe and well within germany.
> After 1945 this ended.
> 
> Today I know, that a lot Israelis still have a german passport and see this as a safeguard in case of a new war in the Middle East.
> (Germany took away the status as german citizen in 1936 and after 1949 the Fed. Republic cancelled this law. Whoever has german ancestors can easily apply for german citizenship)
> 
> Regards
> ze germanguy
> 
> 
> __________________________________
> (*)
> I can not help but express my total love and devotion to this poet.
> Not only are his poems by far the most beautiful I know, but he also represented everything what is good in germany. Spirit, wit, deep thinking and beautiful romantic poetry.
> 
> Read him, read about him - it will enrich your life. Or leave it. He can stand it.
> 
> Just to give you an idea, three citations:
> 
> Heine exiled to France and was critized, because his republican views were opposed by some germans as unpatriotic and anti-german.
> 
> His answer:
> 
> *"Plant the black, red, gold banner at the summit of the German idea, make it the standard of free mankind, and I will shed my dear heart&#8217;s blood for it. Rest assured, I love the Fatherland just as much as you do."*
> 
> Also he wrote 1834 these prophetic words - they give me a shiver everytime i read them.
> Imagine: 99 years before Hitler:
> *
> "Christianity - and that is its greatest merit - has somewhat mitigated that brutal germanic love of war, but it could not destroy it. Should that subduing talisman, the cross, be shattered, the frenzied madness of the ancient warriors, that insane Berserk rage of which Nordic bards have spoken and sung so often, will once more burst into flame. This talisman is fragile, and the day will come when it will collapse miserably. Then the ancient stony gods will rise from the forgotten debris and rub the dust of a thousand years from their eyes, and finally Thor with his giant hammer will jump up and smash the Gothic cathedrals. (...)
> Do not smile at my advice -- the advice of a dreamer who warns you against Kantians, Fichteans, and philosophers of nature. Do not smile at the visionary who anticipates the same revolution in the realm of the visible as has taken place in the spiritual. Thought precedes action as lightning precedes thunder. German thunder is of true Germanic character; it is not very nimble, but rumbles along ponderously. Yet, it will come and when you hear a crashing such as never before has been heard in the world's history, then you know that the German thunderbolt has fallen at last. At that uproar the eagles of the air will drop dead, and lions in the remotest deserts of Africa will hide in their royal dens. A play will be performed in Germany which will make the French Revolution look like an innocent idyll."
> *
> 
> Also he had a sharp wit - which did not make him popular with everybody:
> _*"I do not know if she was virtuous, but she was ugly, and with a woman that is half the battle."*_
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Are you familiar with wagner, I have only heard of him briefly in a book or two about hitler
Click to expand...

Well I have attended some of his operas, mostly from the cycle The Ring. 
I rather prefer Beethoven, Rachmaninoff and Schumann in the classical field. Operas are a bit too long for my taste.
But Wagner´s operas are still great stuff
Hitler loved his music and took his music as kind of a personal religion. So therefore Wagner is now kind of suspicious to some. 
Wagner´s operas are very "germanic", as he uses the old myths and nordic sagas, but still he was long dead, when Hitler started to love his music. So you might find in it what you want. 
Also Wagner himself was a not a nice men (so to say a proof, that a genius artist in general must not always be a nice person). 

King Ludwig II of Bavaria loved Wagner as well and adored his music. Ever visited his castle Neuschwanstein in Bavaria ? This castle was King Ludwigs hideout, inspired by Wagners music. He lived there in a wagnerian dream world of caves with gold, knights and stuff like that. 
And Disney copied it ....

So Wagner was a different thing to different people, but to Hitler he was godlike.
Also, Wagner was an antisemite as well, so again we are in the field where we are looking for proofs of later deeds.

regards
ze germanguy


----------



## germanguy

Sunni Man said:


> mdn2000 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> 
> I would like to see all forms of anti-semitism stamped out.
> 
> But untill the jews figure out what they are doing to cause it.
> 
> I am afraid it will continue to keep comming back and victimizing both jews and non jews alike.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Than once we get rid of the Jews, who is next.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> As for me, I never said anything about getting rid of the jews.
> 
> I was just asking a question: "Do the jews cause anti-semitism by their behavior?
Click to expand...


Do blondes with huge racks cause rape ? Man - this is stupid.


ze germanguy


----------



## Sunni Man

The Jews have been driven out or expelled from 109 countries since 300 A.D.

Clearly they are doing something to cause this behavior in other people. 

As they are the only commom denominater in all cases of anti-semitism.

Per your example of the blond being raped.

If she had been the victim of rape 109 times. 

Then clearly she is doing something wrong and her behavior would need to be scrutinized to try and figure out how to stop this from happening.

Same with the Jews. 

Their behavior needs to be studied and analyized in order to find out why they cause anti-semitism in so many people.


----------



## jillian

germanguy said:


> Now we come to a very important point:
> 
> The Holocaust and Israel.
> Before 1933 nearly every german jew has seen himself undoubtly first and foremost as a german. Most of them were very patriotic and proud of being part of a cultured and respected society. This was not necessarily seen likewise by some germans, so partly this love still was one-sided.
> One century before, the great german poet Heinrich Heine (learn german and read his poems. nuff said) was a good example of this mixed status. (*)
> Then the Nazis told everybody that jews were no germans and this quite finally ended this lovestory.
> After the holocaust, Zionism and the very existence of Israel seemed suddenly a very good idea. In 1929 you needed to be very enthusiastic to settle in Palestine, after 1945 it was rather a matter of life or death.
> Therefore - I do believe - what Israel is today it mostly is because of the Holocaust.
> Before 1933 the german jews considered themselves to be safe and well within germany.
> After 1945 this ended.
> 
> Today I know, that a lot Israelis still have a german passport and see this as a safeguard in case of a new war in the Middle East.
> (Germany took away the status as german citizen in 1936 and after 1949 the Fed. Republic cancelled this law. Whoever has german ancestors can easily apply for german citizenship)
> 
> Regards
> ze germanguy



I would respond, but I can't improve on something so well stated. I agree with everything you say there.

You also may be the first person I've ever seen use a footnote in a post.

Do you think you could teach English to some of the American posters?


----------



## The Rabbi

germanguy said:


> Now we come to a very important point:
> 
> The Holocaust and Israel.
> Before 1933 nearly every german jew has seen himself undoubtly first and foremost as a german. Most of them were very patriotic and proud of being part of a cultured and respected society. This was not necessarily seen likewise by some germans, so partly this love still was one-sided.
> One century before, the great german poet Heinrich Heine (learn german and read his poems. nuff said) was a good example of this mixed status. (*)
> Then the Nazis told everybody that jews were no germans and this quite finally ended this lovestory.
> After the holocaust, Zionism and the very existence of Israel seemed suddenly a very good idea. In 1929 you needed to be very enthusiastic to settle in Palestine, after 1945 it was rather a matter of life or death.
> Therefore - I do believe - what Israel is today it mostly is because of the Holocaust.
> Before 1933 the german jews considered themselves to be safe and well within germany.
> After 1945 this ended.
> 
> Today I know, that a lot Israelis still have a german passport and see this as a safeguard in case of a new war in the Middle East.
> (Germany took away the status as german citizen in 1936 and after 1949 the Fed. Republic cancelled this law. Whoever has german ancestors can easily apply for german citizenship)
> 
> Regards
> ze germanguy
> 
> 
> ]


If Israel were settled by German Jews you might have a point.
You are right that Jewish Germans saw themselves as Germans, and there was a lot of hostility to Zionism, both within Reform and Orthodox camps.
But there were a lot of Russian and Polish Jews who found religion in Zionism and there was a big exodus prior to WW2.
It is  a commonplace that Israel grew out of the Holocaust.  But it is not so.  The state was prefigured by the Balfour Declaration in, what?, 1914?  There was a modern settlement there as far back as the 19th century, with settlements going back throughout history.


----------



## jillian

The Rabbi said:


> germanguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Now we come to a very important point:
> 
> The Holocaust and Israel.
> Before 1933 nearly every german jew has seen himself undoubtly first and foremost as a german. Most of them were very patriotic and proud of being part of a cultured and respected society. This was not necessarily seen likewise by some germans, so partly this love still was one-sided.
> One century before, the great german poet Heinrich Heine (learn german and read his poems. nuff said) was a good example of this mixed status. (*)
> Then the Nazis told everybody that jews were no germans and this quite finally ended this lovestory.
> After the holocaust, Zionism and the very existence of Israel seemed suddenly a very good idea. In 1929 you needed to be very enthusiastic to settle in Palestine, after 1945 it was rather a matter of life or death.
> Therefore - I do believe - what Israel is today it mostly is because of the Holocaust.
> Before 1933 the german jews considered themselves to be safe and well within germany.
> After 1945 this ended.
> 
> Today I know, that a lot Israelis still have a german passport and see this as a safeguard in case of a new war in the Middle East.
> (Germany took away the status as german citizen in 1936 and after 1949 the Fed. Republic cancelled this law. Whoever has german ancestors can easily apply for german citizenship)
> 
> Regards
> ze germanguy
> 
> 
> ]
> 
> 
> 
> If Israel were settled by German Jews you might have a point.
> You are right that Jewish Germans saw themselves as Germans, and there was a lot of hostility to Zionism, both within Reform and Orthodox camps.
> But there were a lot of Russian and Polish Jews who found religion in Zionism and there was a big exodus prior to WW2.
> It is  a commonplace that Israel grew out of the Holocaust.  But it is not so.  The state was prefigured by the Balfour Declaration in, what?, 1914?  There was a modern settlement there as far back as the 19th century, with settlements going back throughout history.
Click to expand...


Also very good points. But I think in terms of the safety level in being Jewish, Germany proved that there really wasn't any security blanket in having rights of citizenship. German Jews were more certain of their status than any other population of Jews that I know of, except for those in the U.S... .and maybe moreso.

Russian Jews always knew they needed to reestablish their homeland. Pogroms told them that all the time...back to when my grandmother left in 1912 and before. And I don't think it can really be argued, though, that the holocaust necessarily accelerated the timeline and made the cause more imperative.


----------



## Charles Stucker

Sunni Man said:


> The Jews have been driven out or expelled from 109 countries since 300 A.D.
> 
> Clearly they are doing something to cause this behavior in other people.
> 
> If she had been the victim of rape 109 times.


If it was over the course of 1700 years then that would be once every 16 years or so. Meaning that the Jews get raped about the time they turn into inviting targets.
Funny thing about that - all the antisemites have dozens of reasons why the Jews are somehow to blame, and all the reasons boil down to the same thing- the antisemite is a bigot.


----------



## Anguille

Maybe we should all go back to Africa.


----------



## Sunni Man

Charles Stucker said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> 
> The Jews have been driven out or expelled from 109 countries since 300 A.D.
> 
> Clearly they are doing something to cause this behavior in other people.
> 
> If she had been the victim of rape 109 times.
> 
> 
> 
> If it was over the course of 1700 years then that would be once every 16 years or so. Meaning that the Jews get raped about the time they turn into inviting targets.
> Funny thing about that - all the antisemites have dozens of reasons why the Jews are somehow to blame, and all the reasons boil down to the same thing- the antisemite is a bigot.
Click to expand...

I agree, anti-semitism is like a contagious disease.

It needs to be isolated, and then eradicated.

As a friend of the jews. I would like to do my part to stop anti-semitism.

By asking the jews to modify any behavior that causes anti-semitism


----------



## germanguy

Sunni Man said:


> The Jews have been driven out or expelled from 109 countries since 300 A.D.
> 
> Clearly they are doing something to cause this behavior in other people.
> 
> As they are the only commom denominater in all cases of anti-semitism.
> 
> Per your example of the blond being raped.
> 
> If she had been the victim of rape 109 times.
> 
> Then clearly she is doing something wrong and her behavior would need to be scrutinized to try and figure out how to stop this from happening.
> 
> Same with the Jews.
> 
> Their behavior needs to be studied and analyized in order to find out why they cause anti-semitism in so many people.



A blond raped 109 times I would rather call a victim of 109 men.
But yes, she 109 times asked for it.
Or do you think, that the 109 rapists are a rather sick bunch.

Let´s ban huge racks !

ze germanguy


----------



## Sunni Man

I am in NO way defending rapists. 

But obviously, she MUST be doing something wrong to attract men who would engage in this criminal behavior.

Same with the Jews. 

Their being driven out of country afer country. Can only lead to one conclusion.

They are doing something to bring anti-semitism out of people who initially didn't exibit this trait.


----------



## germanguy

The Rabbi said:


> germanguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Now we come to a very important point:
> 
> The Holocaust and Israel.
> Before 1933 nearly every german jew has seen himself undoubtly first and foremost as a german. Most of them were very patriotic and proud of being part of a cultured and respected society. This was not necessarily seen likewise by some germans, so partly this love still was one-sided.
> One century before, the great german poet Heinrich Heine (learn german and read his poems. nuff said) was a good example of this mixed status. (*)
> Then the Nazis told everybody that jews were no germans and this quite finally ended this lovestory.
> After the holocaust, Zionism and the very existence of Israel seemed suddenly a very good idea. In 1929 you needed to be very enthusiastic to settle in Palestine, after 1945 it was rather a matter of life or death.
> Therefore - I do believe - what Israel is today it mostly is because of the Holocaust.
> Before 1933 the german jews considered themselves to be safe and well within germany.
> After 1945 this ended.
> 
> Today I know, that a lot Israelis still have a german passport and see this as a safeguard in case of a new war in the Middle East.
> (Germany took away the status as german citizen in 1936 and after 1949 the Fed. Republic cancelled this law. Whoever has german ancestors can easily apply for german citizenship)
> 
> Regards
> ze germanguy
> 
> 
> ]
> 
> 
> 
> If Israel were settled by German Jews you might have a point.
> You are right that Jewish Germans saw themselves as Germans, and there was a lot of hostility to Zionism, both within Reform and Orthodox camps.
> But there were a lot of Russian and Polish Jews who found religion in Zionism and there was a big exodus prior to WW2.
> It is  a commonplace that Israel grew out of the Holocaust.  But it is not so.  The state was prefigured by the Balfour Declaration in, what?, 1914?  There was a modern settlement there as far back as the 19th century, with settlements going back throughout history.
Click to expand...


Israel was definitely not settled by german jews only, but I dare to say that without the Holocaust the urge to establish Israel would have been, well, not the same.
It is one of the founding principles of Israel: We will never be victims again. 
Not the only, but one.

In regard of the Balfour Declaration - it was written 2.11.1917 (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/8/8e/Balfour_declaration_unmarked.jpg).

From this point on we might quarrel endlessly, if this already was meant as a way to establish a jewish state. 

That german jews were not the most eager zionists, might support my foregoing arguments: Most felt no real need to be a zionist. The outlook to settle in Palestine was not very inviting. 
After 1945, when in every german occupied european country (except Denmark !), the jewsih communities were either killed or scattered over the continent. Children without parents, traumatized survivors of KZs etc. For most of them a return to their homeland seemed unthinkable. 

It is no wonder that Israel was founded 1948 - it was possible then. Not many states would have denied recognition in the UN. Imagine the same 25 years later or earlier !

Anyhow - it is still one of the tragedies, that we germans have cut off such a rich and enriching part of ourselves as the german jews have been. 

regards
ze germanguy


----------



## Anguille

Sunni Man said:


> They are doing something to bring anti-semitism out of people who initially didn't exibit this trait.


What came first? The Jew or the anti-semite?


----------



## germanguy

jillian said:


> germanguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Now we come to a very important point:
> 
> The Holocaust and Israel.
> Before 1933 nearly every german jew has seen himself undoubtly first and foremost as a german. Most of them were very patriotic and proud of being part of a cultured and respected society. This was not necessarily seen likewise by some germans, so partly this love still was one-sided.
> One century before, the great german poet Heinrich Heine (learn german and read his poems. nuff said) was a good example of this mixed status. (*)
> Then the Nazis told everybody that jews were no germans and this quite finally ended this lovestory.
> After the holocaust, Zionism and the very existence of Israel seemed suddenly a very good idea. In 1929 you needed to be very enthusiastic to settle in Palestine, after 1945 it was rather a matter of life or death.
> Therefore - I do believe - what Israel is today it mostly is because of the Holocaust.
> Before 1933 the german jews considered themselves to be safe and well within germany.
> After 1945 this ended.
> 
> Today I know, that a lot Israelis still have a german passport and see this as a safeguard in case of a new war in the Middle East.
> (Germany took away the status as german citizen in 1936 and after 1949 the Fed. Republic cancelled this law. Whoever has german ancestors can easily apply for german citizenship)
> 
> Regards
> ze germanguy
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I would respond, but I can't improve on something so well stated. I agree with everything you say there.
> 
> You also may be the first person I've ever seen use a footnote in a post.
> 
> Do you think you could teach English to some of the American posters?
Click to expand...



Hooray - 
first one seen in using a footnote.
Must be a german thing, because we love the use of footnotes.
In some germanacademic books you might find nearly a parallel book in itself.
And it looks damn cool.

And no, I will not try to teach anything to anybody. Just stating my opinions and thoughts.
Thanks anyway for suggesting - I will rub this one day on to my english teacher. 


regards 
ze germanguy


----------



## The Rabbi

germanguy said:


> Anyhow - it is still one of the tragedies, that we germans have cut off such a rich and enriching part of ourselves as the german jews have been.
> 
> regards
> ze germanguy



Thank you.  This is the message of the Altona Holocaust memorial, that Germany itself was impoverished by its actions.
And it is true: Germany has not produced a mathematician of note since the war.  Similarly all their scholarly and scientific people have not been the same caliber as pre-war.


----------



## Charles Stucker

Sunni Man said:


> I am in NO way defending rapists.
> 
> But obviously, she MUST be doing something wrong to attract men who would engage in this criminal behavior.


You mean like being female?
Damn I forgot that was a crime, must not have spent enough time studying Sharia law.

Same with Jews - their "wrong" behavior is being Jewish.


----------



## Colin

Sunni Man said:


> I am in NO way defending rapists.
> 
> But obviously, she MUST be doing something wrong to attract men who would engage in this criminal behavior.
> 
> Same with the Jews.
> 
> Their being driven out of country afer country. Can only lead to one conclusion.
> 
> They are doing something to bring anti-semitism out of people who initially didn't exibit this trait.



Not a joke, but a true story, Sunny. I think there's a moral in it somewhere.

On a Northwest Airways flight from Atlanta , GA , a well attired 
 middle-aged woman found herself sitting next to a man wearing a kippa 
 ("yarmulke" in Yiddish). 
 She called the attendant over to complain about her seating. 


 "What seems to be the problem, Madam?" asked the attendant. 
 "You've sat me next to a Jew!! I can't possibly sit next to this strange 
 man. Please find me another seat!" 

 "Madam, I will see what I can do to accommodate," the attendant replied, 
 "but the flight is virtually full today and I don't know if there is  another seat available." 
 The woman shoots a snooty look at the snubbed Jewish man beside her (not 
 to mention the surrounding passengers).

 A few minutes later the  attendant returned and said, "Madam, the economy and club sections are  full, however, we do have one seat in First class." 
 Before the lady had a chance to respond, the attendant continued, "It is 
 only on exceptions that we make this kind of upgrade, and I had to ask 
 permission from the captain. But, given the circumstances, the captain 
 felt that no one should be forced to sit next to an unpleasant 
 person..." 

 The flight attendant turned to the Jewish man sitting next to her, and 
 said:  "So if you'd like to get your things, Sir, I have a comfortable seat for 
 you in First class..." 
 At this point, the surrounding passengers stood up and gave a standing 
 ovation while the Jewish man walked up to the front of the plane. 

 The lady then said indignantly, 
 "The Captain must have made a mistake.." 
 To which the attendant replied, 
 "No Ma'am. Captain Cohen never makes a mistake.​


----------



## germanguy

I just know a bitter one:

A Jew tells one of his liberators about how he feels about Germany and the germans after being freed from Auschwitz.
"I still like the germans, but they will never forgive us the holocaust !"

regrds
ze germanguy


----------



## Anguille

Sunni Man said:


> I am in NO way defending rapists.
> 
> But obviously, she MUST be doing something wrong to attract men who would engage in this criminal behavior.
> 
> Same with the Jews.
> 
> Their being driven out of country afer country. Can only lead to one conclusion.
> 
> They are doing something to bring anti-semitism out of people who initially didn't exibit this trait.



Depends on how you see the situation. IMO people who are anti Jew are the minority. More people favor Jews or have no bias either for or against them so therefore Jews must be doing something right.


----------



## Anguille

germanguy said:


> Anyhow - it is still one of the tragedies, that we germans have cut off such a rich and enriching part of ourselves as the german jews have been.



Most Germans today were not even born yet at the time of the Holocaust. I don't know your age but it makes me sad that you say, "we germans have cut off" rather than "Germans cut off ..."


----------



## Sunni Man

Colin said:


> Not a joke, but a true story, Sunny. I think there's a moral in it somewhere.


That was a good story Collin.

As a person who is a friend of the jews. I find the behavior of people like the woman in the story to be quite repulsive and crude. 

Many people are anti-semitic without knowing why they are anti-semitic.

They are the worst kind.


----------



## germanguy

Anguille said:


> germanguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Anyhow - it is still one of the tragedies, that we germans have cut off such a rich and enriching part of ourselves as the german jews have been.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Most Germans today were not even born yet at the time of the Holocaust. I don't know your age but it makes me sad that you say, "we germans have cut off" rather than "Germans cut off ..."
Click to expand...


I am 41, so I have definitely no personal responsability whatsoever.

But I am a German, so this is also part of my history.

It would be renunciation to blend out this subject.

Someone said: You bear no guilt, but you can feel ashamed. 
Also, as the Nazis claimed to be the true patriotic germans (and neo-nazis still do so here), I refuse that by accepting what was and that is was a grotesque monstrosity and in no way good. That "those" define what is german can not be accepted, but for doing so, I have to accept what was.

So as I embrace everything what is good in our past, I accept what was not. Everything else would be renunciation.

regards
ze germanguy


----------



## Sunni Man

I don't believe any German born after the defeat of the nazis should feel guilty about anything.

People try an put a guilt trip on them for something they have no responsibility for.

It reminds me of whites who think they are supposed to feel guilt about slavery in America.


----------



## germanguy

Sunni Man said:


> I don't believe any German born after the defeat of the nazis should feel guilty about anything.
> 
> People try an put a guilt trip on them for something they have no responsibility for.
> 
> It reminds me of whites who think they are supposed to feel guilt about slavery in America.



Guilt ? No, never felt that.
Shame ? Sometimes.
Anger ? Only when meeting Neo-Nazis, Anti-Semites etc.


----------



## The Rabbi

Germans involved in the Holocaust today are men in their 80s and 90s.  Anyone born after that bears no guilt, but they do bear responsibility to make sure it wont happen again.
That said, Germans are almost unique in renouncing their former values and making amends for them.  I wish the Poles and French were half as responsible.


----------



## Anguille

germanguy said:


> Anguille said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> germanguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Anyhow - it is still one of the tragedies, that we germans have cut off such a rich and enriching part of ourselves as the german jews have been.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Most Germans today were not even born yet at the time of the Holocaust. I don't know your age but it makes me sad that you say, "we germans have cut off" rather than "Germans cut off ..."
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I am 41, so I have definitely no personal responsability whatsoever.
> 
> But I am a German, so this is also part of my history.
> 
> It would be renunciation to blend out this subject.
> 
> Someone said: You bear no guilt, but you can feel ashamed.
> Also, as the Nazis claimed to be the true patriotic germans (and neo-nazis still do so here), I refuse that by accepting what was and that is was a grotesque monstrosity and in no way good. That "those" define what is german can not be accepted, but for doing so, I have to accept what was.
> 
> So as I embrace everything what is good in our past, I accept what was not. Everything else would be renunciation.
> 
> regards
> ze germanguy
Click to expand...

 Thanks. That explains it well for me. Shame but not guilt. I understand that not only were you born a German but you choose to be a German and in doing so you freely accept some of the burden of Germany's past mistakes. I guess that is what true citizenship involves.


----------



## Anguille

The Rabbi said:


> Germans involved in the Holocaust today are men in their 80s and 90s.  Anyone born after that bears no guilt, but they do bear responsibility to make sure it wont happen again.
> That said, Germans are almost unique in renouncing their former values and making amends for them.  I wish the Poles and French were half as responsible.


No country is perfect. Israel isn't. Even Sweden isn't.


----------



## germanguy

Anguille said:


> The Rabbi said:
> 
> 
> 
> Germans involved in the Holocaust today are men in their 80s and 90s.  Anyone born after that bears no guilt, but they do bear responsibility to make sure it wont happen again.
> That said, Germans are almost unique in renouncing their former values and making amends for them.  I wish the Poles and French were half as responsible.
> 
> 
> 
> No country is perfect. Israel isn't. Even Sweden isn't.
Click to expand...


Do not idealize it, as I would not be sure if the germans are such a good example.
The majority in this country sees the holocaust as something from a very distant past.
Or simply know only vaguely of it. Or do not care at all.

But after two crushing defeats people might have started to review a lot of things.


----------



## germanguy

Anguille said:


> germanguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Anguille said:
> 
> 
> 
> Most Germans today were not even born yet at the time of the Holocaust. I don't know your age but it makes me sad that you say, "we germans have cut off" rather than "Germans cut off ..."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I am 41, so I have definitely no personal responsability whatsoever.
> 
> But I am a German, so this is also part of my history.
> 
> It would be renunciation to blend out this subject.
> 
> Someone said: You bear no guilt, but you can feel ashamed.
> Also, as the Nazis claimed to be the true patriotic germans (and neo-nazis still do so here), I refuse that by accepting what was and that is was a grotesque monstrosity and in no way good. That "those" define what is german can not be accepted, but for doing so, I have to accept what was.
> 
> So as I embrace everything what is good in our past, I accept what was not. Everything else would be renunciation.
> 
> regards
> ze germanguy
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Thanks. That explains it well for me. Shame but not guilt. I understand that not only were you born a German but you choose to be a German and in doing so you freely accept some of the burden of Germany's past mistakes. I guess that is what true citizenship involves.
Click to expand...


Just to underline this:
The US are pretty much a nation defined by the will of the people. 
As it was formed by a revolution, the US represent an idea. 

Being german is still mostly a simple matter of being born here. You do not become a german when immigrating, because the idea of Germany is attractive. 

So I would rather say, that I can not opt out of my nations past, it simply is what it is.
On the other hand, it might be more easy to reasses what is german and what not, as it does not represent a certain idea.

regards
ze germanguy


----------



## Sunni Man

A hundred years from now. 

The so called holocaust will just be a distant memory to the German people.

Hitler will be viewed in a favorable light and seen as a patriot by the nation.

Much like Napoleon. Once reviled in France. He is now seen as a national hero.


----------



## Charles Stucker

Sunni Man said:


> A hundred years from now.
> 
> The so called holocaust will just be a distant memory to the German people.
> 
> Hitler will be viewed in a favorable light and seen as a patriot by the nation..



One can only hope you are wrong in your prediction.


----------



## Yukon

The Jew being forced to work in German work camps was inevitable. The Jew would not hire Germans, Jews caused inflation in Germany, Jew doctors refused to treat Germans, etc. etc. When Herr Hitler was elected as Chancellor he forced the Jew to treat everyone equally, he forced the Jew to work rather than take money from the government. The Jew died in mass because they were forced to work in labour camps. Now they lie about what really happened and get away with it becasue they control the banks and the media of the USA. 

I know the truth and it has set me free.


----------



## DiveCon

Yukon said:


> The Jew being forced to work in German work camps was inevitable. The Jew would not hire Germans, Jews caused inflation in Germany, Jew doctors refused to treat Germans, etc. etc. When Herr Hitler was elected as Chancellor he forced the Jew to treat everyone equally, he forced the Jew to work rather than take money from the government. The Jew died in mass because they were forced to work in labour camps. Now they lie about what really happened and get away with it becasue they control the banks and the media of the USA.
> 
> I know the truth and it has set me free.


you and the truth are not even on speaking terms


----------



## mdn2000

Yukon said:


> The Jew being forced to work in German work camps was inevitable. The Jew would not hire Germans, Jews caused inflation in Germany, Jew doctors refused to treat Germans, etc. etc. When Herr Hitler was elected as Chancellor he forced the Jew to treat everyone equally, he forced the Jew to work rather than take money from the government. The Jew died in mass because they were forced to work in labour camps. Now they lie about what really happened and get away with it becasue they control the banks and the media of the USA.
> 
> I know the truth and it has set me free.



unwittingly you touch on a bit of truth, banks and the rothschild, the rothschild got rich in germany, I forget my history and aint at home to grab the book off the shelf and being anti google I wont bore folks with a googled link, was it  William IX of germany that traded coins with the elder Rothschild, than had the Rothschild's hide his riches while he went into exile. 

Pretty ironic, the Germans made the jews rich bankers.


----------



## Yukon

The Jew died in Wiork Camps, the Jew was NOT exterminated by the Germans. You believe the ZOG lies, I do not.


----------



## Yukon

I have no pity for the Jew.


----------



## Naz1Mick

The holocau$t was a Lie, a $ham,A Fable.Invented to extort money from Germany after the war!


----------



## Skeptik

Naz1Mick said:


> The holocau$t was a Lie, a $ham,A Fable.Invented to extort money from Germany after the war!



I see you subscribe to the mutability of the past.

Do you love Big Brother as well?


----------



## Liability

Yukon said:


> I have no pity for the Jew.



You fucking crusty clit brain dead cock-sucker troll should really just go ahead and ***.


----------



## Charles_Main

I have only one problem with the way the Holocaust is portrayed. What seems to be left out in most peoples descriptions of it. Whether they be a Jew, or a Jew hater or someone in between. Seems to represent it as Something that happened to only the Jews. The haters use that as evidence that the Jews somehow deserved it. 

The facts are much differnt. The fact is that the Germans killed way more than just Jews in the gas chambers, and in mass killings in other ways. The Slavs, and Gypsies for example. It was about the Nazi belief in a superior race. Superior to all other, not just Jews.

The Jews did get treated differently Because they were the "Boogy" man Hitler road to power, but to try and portray it as something that was done, or happened to only Jews is completely misrepresenting what happening, and I think in some ways feeds the crowd that says the Jews were just getting what the deserved.(which it goes with out saying I am not one of)


----------



## Skeptik

Charles_Main said:


> I have only one problem with the way the Holocaust is portrayed. What seems to be left out in most peoples descriptions of it. Whether they be a Jew, or a Jew hater or someone in between. Seems to represent it as Something that happened to only the Jews. The haters use that as evidence that the Jews somehow deserved it.
> 
> The facts are much differnt. The fact is that the Germans killed way more than just Jews in the gas chambers, and in mass killings in other ways. The Slavs, and Gypsies for example. It was about the Nazi belief in a superior race. Superior to all other, not just Jews.
> 
> The Jews did get treated differently Because they were the "Boogy" man Hitler road to power, but to try and portray it as something that was done, or happened to only Jews is completely misrepresenting what happening, and I think in some ways feeds the crowd that says the Jews were just getting what the deserved.(which it goes with out saying I am not one of)



Plus there have been many other incidents of genocide throughout  the history of man, including the genocide in Camobdia under the Khymer Rouge.  

Anyone denying genocide, and specifically denying the Jewish holocaust is simply either trolling the board or has his head firmly implanted where the sun doesn't shine.  You are correct, however, that the holocaust involved more than just the Jews.


----------



## MikeK

Modbert said:


> roomy said:
> 
> 
> 
> If it bores you please do us all a favour and fuck off out of the thread.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Honestly Roomy, the holocaust against the Jews has been beaten to death more then any event in history.
> 
> *The reasons of why it happened are quite obvious.* There is no good reason for David to bring up such a thread short of a combination of trolling and trying to draw sympathy.
Click to expand...

Obvious to whom?  

The Nazi pogrom of the 30s/40s is an event in modern history which understandably arouses the interest of all who are curious about human behavior.  The reason why it happened is not obvious to me or, I will assume, everyone else who contributes his or her thoughts and questions to the topic.  It therefore is worthy of discussion.


----------



## MikeK

Modbert said:


> roomy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Very good, you don't need to post on the topic, others are and you are trying your best to fuck the thread up.Kindly desist.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not trying to fuck up any thread. I'm merely questioning why it's always the Hitler Holocaust that is referred to as the only one or why it's the only one discussed?
> 
> Why no discussions once again about how the Native Americans not only got wiped out by the U.S. Govt and many of her citizens but their legacy has been a complete lie when fabricated by many lying sources.
> 
> Or how about the current Genocide going on in Darfur?
> 
> Nobody ever talks about how the Trail of Tears if done today would be considered Genocide. Or how the number of Natives killed vastly outnumber the number in the Holocaust committed by Hitler.
> 
> Or hey about the Armenian genocide? Or the genocide committed against the Russian people by their own government during the time of the Soviet Union?
> 
> Or Mengistu in Ethiopia with the red scare?
> 
> Or Saddam's genocide against the Kurds?
> 
> Or Rwanda?
> 
> My point is, why not discussion of other genocides and not just the only one that David gives a damn about?
> 
> The reason for why the Hitler Genocide occurred has already been answered by several posters, and I simply didn't feel like beating the dead horse.
Click to expand...

While you believe the reason for the Nazi pogrom is obvious the fact is many conflicting opinions continue to be offered and so many questions about that single event remain unanswered.  But, ironically, there are no lingering questions about the respective reasons for the genocides you've listed above.  The reason in every instance is quite obvious: geographic and/or political (tribal) dominance.  

In the case of the Jews of Hitler Germany the answer is not quite as simple, mainly because the history of the Jews is replete with examples of persecution, ostracism and expulsion.  Thus the lingering question as to _why?_


----------



## MikeK

Zoom-boing said:


> The Holocaust happened on the whim of a madman.  He was in the right place at the right time and he went after it.  That was _his _master plan.


while it is true that Adolf Hitler was an affirmed, self-described anti-Semite who aspired to rid Germany of all Jews, the problem was the Jews had throughout their history been expelled from just about every nation on the Western Hemisphere that ever hosted them, and some in the East, so finding a place to deport them to was an insoluble problem.  As time went on and the Third Reich became more powerful, coming under the control of such fanatical Jew-haters as Reinhard Heydrich, et al, the proposal for the infamous "final solution" was advanced by Adolf Eichmann, a pragmatical bureaucrat, and it was quietly put into motion.  

While Hitler neither conceived the genocide nor did he actively promote it he essentially ignored it.


----------



## jillian

MikeK said:


> Zoom-boing said:
> 
> 
> 
> The Holocaust happened on the whim of a madman.  He was in the right place at the right time and he went after it.  That was _his _master plan.
> 
> 
> 
> while it is true that Adolf Hitler was an affirmed, self-described anti-Semite who aspired to rid Germany of all Jews, the problem was the Jews had throughout their history been expelled from just about every nation on the Western Hemisphere that ever hosted them, and some in the East, so finding a place to deport them to was an insoluble problem.  As time went on and the Third Reich became more powerful, coming under the control of such fanatical Jew-haters as Reinhard Heydrich, et al, the proposal for the infamous "final solution" was advanced by Adolf Eichmann, a pragmatical bureaucrat, and it was quietly put into motion.
> 
> While Hitler neither conceived the genocide nor did he actively promote it he essentially ignored it.
Click to expand...



didn't conceive it?

maybe, but he sure as hell actively promoted it. he called it "the final solution of the Jewish question" (German: "die Endlösung der Judenfrage").

i realize its very chic on my side of the political aisle to express this oh so... 'fair' (not really) attitude toward jews that the revisionist history flows like water.

and yes, many nations had found it politically expedient to victimize their jews as a means of accumulating their own poltical power, you might want to look at what happened to those places when they did.

anti-semitism is the problem of the anti-semite. you don't blame the victimized for the victim being abusive trash.


----------



## jillian

MikeK said:


> Modbert said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> roomy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Very good, you don't need to post on the topic, others are and you are trying your best to fuck the thread up.Kindly desist.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not trying to fuck up any thread. I'm merely questioning why it's always the Hitler Holocaust that is referred to as the only one or why it's the only one discussed?
> 
> Why no discussions once again about how the Native Americans not only got wiped out by the U.S. Govt and many of her citizens but their legacy has been a complete lie when fabricated by many lying sources.
> 
> Or how about the current Genocide going on in Darfur?
> 
> Nobody ever talks about how the Trail of Tears if done today would be considered Genocide. Or how the number of Natives killed vastly outnumber the number in the Holocaust committed by Hitler.
> 
> Or hey about the Armenian genocide? Or the genocide committed against the Russian people by their own government during the time of the Soviet Union?
> 
> Or Mengistu in Ethiopia with the red scare?
> 
> Or Saddam's genocide against the Kurds?
> 
> Or Rwanda?
> 
> My point is, why not discussion of other genocides and not just the only one that David gives a damn about?
> 
> The reason for why the Hitler Genocide occurred has already been answered by several posters, and I simply didn't feel like beating the dead horse.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> While you believe the reason for the Nazi pogrom is obvious the fact is many conflicting opinions continue to be offered and so many questions about that single event remain unanswered.  But, ironically, there are no lingering questions about the respective reasons for the genocides you've listed above.  The reason in every instance is quite obvious: geographic and/or political (tribal) dominance.
> 
> In the case of the Jews of Hitler Germany the answer is not quite as simple, mainly because the history of the Jews is replete with examples of persecution, ostracism and expulsion.  Thus the lingering question as to _why?_
Click to expand...


nazi pogrom? you liken what happened in nazi germany with what happened in russia and poland pre-communism? really? funny... my grandparents were allowed to leave russia. people in german, not so much.

there ARE no questions about the holocaust. there are liars and revisionists who find it palatable to spread anti-semitism and hatred by trying to pretend that it didn't happen.

liars and revisions do not equal questions. the nazis documented every last bit of what they did.

the answers are really quite simple. why did the holocaust occur? because it was politically expedient for it to occur, same as the massacre of the armenians by the turks on a smaller scale.


----------



## Annie

jillian said:


> MikeK said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Modbert said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not trying to fuck up any thread. I'm merely questioning why it's always the Hitler Holocaust that is referred to as the only one or why it's the only one discussed?
> 
> Why no discussions once again about how the Native Americans not only got wiped out by the U.S. Govt and many of her citizens but their legacy has been a complete lie when fabricated by many lying sources.
> 
> Or how about the current Genocide going on in Darfur?
> 
> Nobody ever talks about how the Trail of Tears if done today would be considered Genocide. Or how the number of Natives killed vastly outnumber the number in the Holocaust committed by Hitler.
> 
> Or hey about the Armenian genocide? Or the genocide committed against the Russian people by their own government during the time of the Soviet Union?
> 
> Or Mengistu in Ethiopia with the red scare?
> 
> Or Saddam's genocide against the Kurds?
> 
> Or Rwanda?
> 
> My point is, why not discussion of other genocides and not just the only one that David gives a damn about?
> 
> The reason for why the Hitler Genocide occurred has already been answered by several posters, and I simply didn't feel like beating the dead horse.
> 
> 
> 
> While you believe the reason for the Nazi pogrom is obvious the fact is many conflicting opinions continue to be offered and so many questions about that single event remain unanswered.  But, ironically, there are no lingering questions about the respective reasons for the genocides you've listed above.  The reason in every instance is quite obvious: geographic and/or political (tribal) dominance.
> 
> In the case of the Jews of Hitler Germany the answer is not quite as simple, mainly because the history of the Jews is replete with examples of persecution, ostracism and expulsion.  Thus the lingering question as to _why?_
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> nazi pogrom? you liken what happened in nazi germany with what happened in russia and poland pre-communism? really? funny... my grandparents were allowed to leave russia. people in german, not so much.
> 
> there ARE no questions about the holocaust. there are liars and revisionists who find it palatable to spread anti-semitism and hatred by trying to pretend that it didn't happen.
> 
> liars and revisions do not equal questions. the nazis documented every last bit of what they did.
> 
> the answers are really quite simple. why did the holocaust occur? because it was politically expedient for it to occur, same as the massacre of the armenians by the turks on a smaller scale.
Click to expand...


If memory serves about 11m people were murdered under the Nazi program of camps and other means of getting rid of undesirables. 6m of them were Jews. What percent of total number of Jews in Nazi controlled areas was that? About 66% is the answer.

Hitler and the NAZI were anti-Semitic, no doubt on that score. Now why? Is that the question the op was asking? If the answer is 'concentration of wealth' in Jews hands? Why was that? If they controlled banks, major industries, media? Why was that? 

People, weird people, still make those charges today, including in US, though still far less than in Europe. The answer is not all that difficult. Find education levels by religion/ethnicity. In the US you'll find correlation too with Pacific-Asians, must be so careful now with term 'Asian.'


----------



## MikeK

Xenophon said:


> Echo Zulu said:
> 
> 
> 
> That is true. But, there are others out there like him, some  right here in this thread, who believe the sunni boy lies.
> 
> 
> 
> Hardly surprising, a good portion of modern Europe thinks the same way, they simply substitue 'Israel' for 'jew' these days.
Click to expand...

If this is so, _why_ do you suppose it is?  If it is so I would suspect the reason is the vast majority of Jews throughout Europe and North America are irrepressibly loyal to Israel above any other national or ethnic considerations.  

I attribute that impression to my own observations in which any criticism of Israel is met with vigorously defensive, sometimes impassioned and insulting accusations of anti-Semitism in spite of the conspicuous absence of any derogatory mention of Jews.  So if the words _Israel_ and _Jew_ have become reflexively synonymous the reason for it is obvious.


----------



## dilloduck

Annie said:


> jillian said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MikeK said:
> 
> 
> 
> While you believe the reason for the Nazi pogrom is obvious the fact is many conflicting opinions continue to be offered and so many questions about that single event remain unanswered.  But, ironically, there are no lingering questions about the respective reasons for the genocides you've listed above.  The reason in every instance is quite obvious: geographic and/or political (tribal) dominance.
> 
> In the case of the Jews of Hitler Germany the answer is not quite as simple, mainly because the history of the Jews is replete with examples of persecution, ostracism and expulsion.  Thus the lingering question as to _why?_
> 
> 
> 
> 
> nazi pogrom? you liken what happened in nazi germany with what happened in russia and poland pre-communism? really? funny... my grandparents were allowed to leave russia. people in german, not so much.
> 
> there ARE no questions about the holocaust. there are liars and revisionists who find it palatable to spread anti-semitism and hatred by trying to pretend that it didn't happen.
> 
> liars and revisions do not equal questions. the nazis documented every last bit of what they did.
> 
> the answers are really quite simple. why did the holocaust occur? because it was politically expedient for it to occur, same as the massacre of the armenians by the turks on a smaller scale.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> If memory serves about 11m people were murdered under the Nazi program of camps and other means of getting rid of undesirables. 6m of them were Jews. What percent of total number of Jews in Nazi controlled areas was that? About 66% is the answer.
> 
> Hitler and the NAZI were anti-Semitic, no doubt on that score. Now why? Is that the question the op was asking? If the answer is 'concentration of wealth' in Jews hands? Why was that? If they controlled banks, major industries, media? Why was that?
> 
> People, weird people, still make those charges today, including in US, though still far less than in Europe. The answer is not all that difficult. Find education levels by religion/ethnicity. In the US you'll find correlation too with Pacific-Asians, must be so careful now with term 'Asian.'
Click to expand...


and people with enough smarts to become rich and powerful are STILL hated to this day.
Weird how that works.


----------



## MikeK

Sky Dancer said:


> Too bad.  It's a worthy topic.  I stick around the forum because once and awhile, when the trolls are asleep a few of us can actually discuss a serious subject in some depth.  It doesn't last long, unfortunately.


I agree.  Whenever this topic attempts to rise as a productive discussion it tends to devolve into a schoolyard spitball fight.  What is needed is a monitor to dismiss the irrelevant nonsense and adolescent bickering.


----------



## Charles_Main

often forgotten are the Slavs. The Slavs of Russia and Eastern Europe In many cases almost welcomed the Germans as Liberators at first, However the Nazis and their Master race considered them inferior and killed millions and sent millions more of to slave camps. 

Had they capitalized on the fact the so many Slavs actually wanted rid of Stalin so much they welcomed the Germans, instead of slaughtering them, European Russia at least, might be speaking German today.

It is evidence of why it all happened. It was all about the Germans feelings of superiority to others.


----------



## MikeK

roomy said:


> How many were beaten to death?
> 
> How many were hung?
> 
> How many were shot?
> 
> How many were starved to death?
> 
> How many died of disease?
> 
> How many died due to experiments?
> 
> How many were burned to death?
> 
> How many were gassed to death?
> 
> How many deaths make a holocaust?
> 
> You can repeat your half hearted denials until you are blue in the face but in effect you say nothing.Even you seem tired of your own blatherings and earlier in the thread admitted the holocaust so toddle along and try to peddle your crap elswhere, I have grown as tired of it as I think you have.


Unless you can provide substantive answers to these questions they remain rhetorical and contribute to the doubts that foster and support _Holocaust denial._


----------

