# Interesting post fom another board...



## Philobeado

As an ELECTRICAL ENGINEER, I can tell you that electric cars are not viable

Either short term or long term, electric cars are a pipe dream. Conversion of electrical energy to mechanical energy in an automobile is highly inefficient. And most sources used to charge the batteries will remain fossil powered for a long time unless we allow new nuclear power plants to be built.

GM has shown they are truly government motors- providing an expensive complex solution for a problem that didn't exist.


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## Truthmatters

I can tell he will never solve the puzzle.


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## daveman

Electric vehicles don't eliminate pollution; they merely relocate it.  And given the toxic materials used to make the batteries, they're more hazardous to the environment than fuel-burning engines.


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## syrenn

But...at the moment they are politically correct.


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## daveman

syrenn said:


> But...at the moment they are politically correct.


Liberals feeling good about themselves is all that matters.


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## CrusaderFrank

President Palin and the Paul Congress will need to eliminate all CAFE Standards and tax breaks and subsidies for Moonbat Progressive automotive "ideas"


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## B. Kidd

Only 'greenie' fashionista's would want to fuck with them.
The Volt takes 10 hours to charge at 120 volts, four hours at 240. 
The Leaf takes 20 hours to charge at 120 volts, eight hours at 240.
Between defective charging sockets and the power drain of the air conditioning, good luck!
The Volt, just what recession stricken America needs, a $41,000.00 (before the gov't's $7500.00 tax credit) secondary vehicle, because GM is not touting them as a primary vehicle.


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## Truthmatters

There they go denying science


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## rightwinger

Electric cars can fill a niche market for small commutes and city traffic

Until they find a way to charge batteries in 5 min and handle emergency outages they will never take hold.

Drive in the rain, at night, use the AC or heater and you drain your battery. Hybrids are still a better option


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## RadiomanATL

I thought the electric motors were actually more efficient than internal combustion engines?


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## daveman

Truthmatters said:


> There they go denying science



Which science is that?  The science that says the electricity in your wall socket that you plug your electric car into doesn't magically appear there, that it has to be generated somewhere else, with a 50/50 chance that it's derived from burning coal?


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## 2Parties

Ford, Toyota, and Honda are smart in that they aren't pushing this nearly as hard as GM (and Nissan).  The short-term gain GM and Nissan may get out of this will be offset in the long-run by the complete flop this will be...


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## mudwhistle

Philobeado said:


> As an ELECTRICAL ENGINEER, I can tell you that electric cars are not viable
> 
> Either short term or long term, electric cars are a pipe dream. Conversion of electrical energy to mechanical energy in an automobile is highly inefficient. And most sources used to charge the batteries will remain fossil powered for a long time unless we allow new nuclear power plants to be built.
> 
> GM has shown they are truly government motors- providing an expensive complex solution for a problem that didn't exist.



It's pretty clear that the goal isn't just to get us off fossil fuels...the goal is to get us out of our cars. 

Only the rich will be able afford an automobile.


----------



## Yukon.

daveman said:


> Electric vehicles don't eliminate pollution; they merely relocate it.  And given the toxic materials used to make the batteries, they're more hazardous to the environment than fuel-burning engines.



You dont know what you're talking about. Your ignorance with respect to this subject is stunning to say the least.


----------



## daveman

Yukon. said:


> daveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> Electric vehicles don't eliminate pollution; they merely relocate it.  And given the toxic materials used to make the batteries, they're more hazardous to the environment than fuel-burning engines.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You dont know what you're talking about. Your ignorance with respect to this subject is stunning to say the least.
Click to expand...

  So where does the power in your wall sockets come from?  Unicorn hugs?


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## Truthmatters

daveman said:


> Truthmatters said:
> 
> 
> 
> There they go denying science
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Which science is that?  The science that says the electricity in your wall socket that you plug your electric car into doesn't magically appear there, that it has to be generated somewhere else, with a 50/50 chance that it's derived from burning coal?
Click to expand...


At the momment that may be true but alternatives exsist and will continue to be developed.

In the future you willl be able to plug your car into a meter in every parking place instead of a parking meter.

Charge while you park at work and at home.

If every house had solar and wind capability things would be VERY different.


----------



## RadiomanATL

daveman said:


> Yukon. said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> daveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> Electric vehicles don't eliminate pollution; they merely relocate it.  And given the toxic materials used to make the batteries, they're more hazardous to the environment than fuel-burning engines.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You dont know what you're talking about. Your ignorance with respect to this subject is stunning to say the least.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> So where does the power in your wall sockets come from?  Unicorn hugs?
Click to expand...


Farts.

Unicorn farts.

Hugs as an energy source come from rainbows. Unicorns only source of power generation are their farts.


----------



## rightwinger

RadiomanATL said:


> I thought the electric motors were actually more efficient than internal combustion engines?



They are.....but it ruins the story line


----------



## B. Kidd

Truthmatters said:


> daveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Truthmatters said:
> 
> 
> 
> There they go denying science
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Which science is that?  The science that says the electricity in your wall socket that you plug your electric car into doesn't magically appear there, that it has to be generated somewhere else, with a 50/50 chance that it's derived from burning coal?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> At the momment that may be true but alternatives exsist and will continue to be developed.
> 
> In the future you willl be able to plug your car into a meter in every parking place instead of a parking meter.
> 
> Charge while you park at work and at home.
> 
> If every house had solar and wind capability things would be VERY different.
Click to expand...


TM, let me introduce you to George Jetson .
Wait until most Volt/Leaf owners go to charge up at home and their electrical circuits trip like MoFo's. Just know where your house circuit box is.


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## DiveCon

Truthmatters said:


> There they go denying science


when are you gonna get back to us on those elected federal judges you spoke about?


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## Truthmatters

Link me up to what you are talking about


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## DiveCon

Truthmatters said:


> daveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Truthmatters said:
> 
> 
> 
> There they go denying science
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Which science is that?  The science that says the electricity in your wall socket that you plug your electric car into doesn't magically appear there, that it has to be generated somewhere else, with a 50/50 chance that it's derived from burning coal?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> At the momment that may be true but alternatives exsist and will continue to be developed.
> 
> In the future you willl be able to plug your car into a meter in every parking place instead of a parking meter.
> 
> Charge while you park at work and at home.
> 
> If every house had solar and wind capability things would be VERY different.
Click to expand...

so you will still have to PAY for the electricity, or do you think the city and the employer will be paying for it?


----------



## DiveCon

Truthmatters said:


> Link me up to what you are talking about


ah, figures you forgot about that already
you pathetic moron


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## Truthmatters

Where did I say the consumer would not pay?


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## DiveCon

Truthmatters said:


> Where did I say the consumer would not pay?


where did i say you did?


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## JBeukema

Philobeado said:


> As an ELECTRICAL ENGINEER, I can tell you that electric cars are not viable
> 
> Either short term or long term, electric cars are a pipe dream. Conversion of electrical energy to mechanical energy in an automobile is highly inefficient.



How does he explain this?







Model S | Tesla Motors


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## WillowTree

I don't give a rats ass what GM builds. I won't buy it.


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## JBeukema

Or this





The Electric Tesla Roadster | Tesla Motors

?


----------



## DiveCon

DiveCon said:


> Truthmatters said:
> 
> 
> 
> Link me up to what you are talking about
> 
> 
> 
> ah, figures you forgot about that already
> you pathetic moron
Click to expand...

http://www.usmessageboard.com/2538611-post3.html

run from that again


----------



## JBeukema

rightwinger said:


> Electric cars can fill a niche market for small commutes and city traffic
> 
> Until they find a way to charge batteries in 5 min and handle emergency outages they will never take hold.
> 
> Drive in the rain, at night, use the AC or heater and you drain your battery. Hybrids are still a better option


Rain?

Clarify.


----------



## B. Kidd

I wonder if the 'wunderkind' engineers at GM and Nissan thought of putting an in-line surge protector in their charging systems, or if that will be an expensive option. Electric circuit boards are not cheap.


----------



## daveman

Truthmatters said:


> daveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Truthmatters said:
> 
> 
> 
> There they go denying science
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Which science is that?  The science that says the electricity in your wall socket that you plug your electric car into doesn't magically appear there, that it has to be generated somewhere else, with a 50/50 chance that it's derived from burning coal?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> At the momment that may be true but alternatives exsist and will continue to be developed.
> 
> In the future you willl be able to plug your car into a meter in every parking place instead of a parking meter.
> 
> Charge while you park at work and at home.
> 
> If every house had solar and wind capability things would be VERY different.
Click to expand...

Someday.  Maybe.  Meanwhile, right now, here in the real world, if you plug in an electric car, there's a 71% chance it's being recharged by burning something, and another 20% chance it's being recharged by nuclear power.  






There simply is no renewable source as yet that will scale up sufficiently to replace fossil fuels or nuclear power.   I'm not saying we shouldn't explore alternatives, but let's not kid ourselves that electric vehicles do anything besides relocate the problem, mmmkay?


----------



## RadiomanATL

JBeukema said:


> Or this
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Electric Tesla Roadster | Tesla Motors
> 
> ?



Yeah, it seems to me that the electric motor is orders of magnitude MORE efficient than an internal combustion engine.

Not talkin' about energy efficiency up the food chain to the power plant, and such. Just the actual motor itself.


----------



## RadiomanATL

As I said in another thread.

3 words.

Nu-ku-lar.


----------



## daveman

JBeukema said:


> Philobeado said:
> 
> 
> 
> As an ELECTRICAL ENGINEER, I can tell you that electric cars are not viable
> 
> Either short term or long term, electric cars are a pipe dream. Conversion of electrical energy to mechanical energy in an automobile is highly inefficient.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How does he explain this?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Model S | Tesla Motors
Click to expand...



NOW TAKING RESERVATIONS
PRODUCTION BEGINS 2012
$5,000 REFUNDABLE RESERVATION
BASE PRICE: $49,000*

*Price includes $7,500 US Federal tax credit


----------



## Truthmatters

DiveCon said:


> DiveCon said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Truthmatters said:
> 
> 
> 
> Link me up to what you are talking about
> 
> 
> 
> ah, figures you forgot about that already
> you pathetic moron
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> http://www.usmessageboard.com/2538611-post3.html
> 
> run from that again
Click to expand...




Yeap I made a mistake there divecon, I missed the fact that it said federal judge.

I have made mistakes before this and will no doubt make mistakes after this.

I am sane enough to admitt a mistake.

Now link us up to any time you admitted to making a mistake.


----------



## JBeukema

Truthmatters said:


> In the future you willl be able to plug your car into a meter in every parking place instead of a parking meter.



How feasible do you think it is for businesses or cities to not only install the power lines, but the means to measure and charge for the electricity? A parking meter is rather passive, but what you propose not so much.


> If every house had solar and wind capability things would be VERY different.



Each of those technologies is limited as to when and where it can be used and how much power they can generate. Of course, the plastics and other materials are made with oil and alternatives being researched are not currently economically feasible.

We will need a strong backbone behind alternative fuels. No such backbone exists that does not pose great challenges, be it carbon emissions (eg: carbon monoxide) or nuclear waste. We must operate within the realm of feasibility.


----------



## daveman

JBeukema said:


> Or this
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Electric Tesla Roadster | Tesla Motors
> 
> ?



AVAILABLE NOW

FROM $101,500* OR $1658/MO LEASE**
WITH $9,900 DEPOSIT

*Includes $7,500 Tax Incentive


----------



## RadiomanATL

daveman said:


> JBeukema said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Philobeado said:
> 
> 
> 
> As an ELECTRICAL ENGINEER, I can tell you that electric cars are not viable
> 
> Either short term or long term, electric cars are a pipe dream. Conversion of electrical energy to mechanical energy in an automobile is highly inefficient.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How does he explain this?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Model S | Tesla Motors
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> NOW TAKING RESERVATIONS
> PRODUCTION BEGINS 2012
> $5,000 REFUNDABLE RESERVATION
> BASE PRICE: $49,000*
> 
> *Price includes $7,500 US Federal tax credit
Click to expand...


Even before the tax credit, $56,500 for a luxury sports car is well within current market norms.

Hell, look up the price of a 'vette, or a loaded camaro or loaded 'stang.

Now that chevy volt? Priced waaaay outside of market norms for a small sedan IMO.


----------



## HUGGY

daveman said:


> Yukon. said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> daveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> Electric vehicles don't eliminate pollution; they merely relocate it.  And given the toxic materials used to make the batteries, they're more hazardous to the environment than fuel-burning engines.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You dont know what you're talking about. Your ignorance with respect to this subject is stunning to say the least.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> So where does the power in your wall sockets come from?  Unicorn hugs?
Click to expand...


Hydro electric.


----------



## JBeukema

daveman said:


> JBeukema said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Philobeado said:
> 
> 
> 
> As an ELECTRICAL ENGINEER, I can tell you that electric cars are not viable
> 
> Either short term or long term, electric cars are a pipe dream. Conversion of electrical energy to mechanical energy in an automobile is highly inefficient.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How does he explain this?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Model S | Tesla Motors
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> NOW TAKING RESERVATIONS
> PRODUCTION BEGINS 2012
> $5,000 REFUNDABLE RESERVATION
> BASE PRICE: $49,000*
> 
> *Price includes $7,500 US Federal tax credit
Click to expand...



Yes, Nice cars are expensive and new technologies are expensive at first.

What's your point? You think there aren't comparable IC cars that cost as much? Tesla is not a company that makes affordable vehicles for everyone. They specialize in high-end, high-performance electric vehicles. 

Basically, they make electric Ferraris (see: Tesla Roadster)


----------



## JBeukema

daveman said:


> JBeukema said:
> 
> 
> 
> Or this
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Electric Tesla Roadster | Tesla Motors
> 
> ?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> AVAILABLE NOW
> 
> FROM $101,500* OR $1658/MO LEASE**
> WITH $9,900 DEPOSIT
> 
> *Includes $7,500 Tax Incentive
Click to expand...



Yes, high-end, high-performance vehicles like Ferrari and Tesla are expensive. What's your point?

Someone said the motors were inefficient and electric cars will n ever work. If that were true, Tesla couldn't make the vehicles they make.


----------



## B. Kidd

Current Flat screen TV's, computers, and Home entertainment systems do not have built in surge protectors. Neither do RV's that run off 'shore' power. If the engineers on the Volt/Leaf missed this protection from 'energy spikes', they missed a biggee.....


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## JBeukema

You want something cheap?

A $672 electric car, built by two DIYers | Hypermiling, Fuel Economy, and EcoModding News - EcoModder.com


----------



## DiveCon

Truthmatters said:


> DiveCon said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> DiveCon said:
> 
> 
> 
> ah, figures you forgot about that already
> you pathetic moron
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.usmessageboard.com/2538611-post3.html
> 
> run from that again
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yeap I made a mistake there divecon, I missed the fact that it said federal judge.
> 
> I have made mistakes before this and will no doubt make mistakes after this.
> 
> I am sane enough to admitt a mistake.
> 
> Now link us up to any time you admitted to making a mistake.
Click to expand...

wow, you actually admit it, finally
and i have many times admitted mistakes 
i make so few though


----------



## JBeukema

A 'vette coupe stars at $48,930

Grand sport is over 58 k


zr1? $106,000. Comparable to the Tesla Roadster

source:
2010 Chevy Corvette | Performance Cars | Corvette Cars


----------



## DiveCon

HUGGY said:


> daveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yukon. said:
> 
> 
> 
> You dont know what you're talking about. Your ignorance with respect to this subject is stunning to say the least.
> 
> 
> 
> So where does the power in your wall sockets come from?  Unicorn hugs?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Hydro electric.
Click to expand...

try and build a dam
see how many enviro nuts try and stop you


----------



## Truthmatters

DiveCon said:


> Truthmatters said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> DiveCon said:
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.usmessageboard.com/2538611-post3.html
> 
> run from that again
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yeap I made a mistake there divecon, I missed the fact that it said federal judge.
> 
> I have made mistakes before this and will no doubt make mistakes after this.
> 
> I am sane enough to admitt a mistake.
> 
> Now link us up to any time you admitted to making a mistake.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> wow, you actually admit it, finally
> and i have many times admitted mistakes
> i make so few though
Click to expand...



I have always admitted mistakes on here and have done it several times.

You people just pretend I dont.

I have yet to see a con on here own up to their mistakes.


----------



## JBeukema

RadiomanATL said:


> daveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JBeukema said:
> 
> 
> 
> How does he explain this?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Model S | Tesla Motors
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> NOW TAKING RESERVATIONS
> PRODUCTION BEGINS 2012
> $5,000 REFUNDABLE RESERVATION
> BASE PRICE: $49,000*
> 
> *Price includes $7,500 US Federal tax credit
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Even before the tax credit, $56,500 for a luxury sports car is well within current market norms.
> 
> Hell, look up the price of a 'vette, or a loaded camaro or loaded 'stang.
> 
> Now that chevy volt? Priced waaaay outside of market norms for a small sedan IMO.
Click to expand...



The volt is like designer jeans. You pay for the name, the image. 

If the history of everything else is any indication, prices on electric vehicles will come down with innovation and market competition,


----------



## RadiomanATL

JBeukema said:


> RadiomanATL said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> daveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> NOW TAKING RESERVATIONS
> PRODUCTION BEGINS 2012
> $5,000 REFUNDABLE RESERVATION
> BASE PRICE: $49,000*
> 
> *Price includes $7,500 US Federal tax credit
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Even before the tax credit, $56,500 for a luxury sports car is well within current market norms.
> 
> Hell, look up the price of a 'vette, or a loaded camaro or loaded 'stang.
> 
> Now that chevy volt? Priced waaaay outside of market norms for a small sedan IMO.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> The volt is like designer jeans. You pay for the name, the image.
> 
> If the history of everything else is any indication, prices on electric vehicles will come down with innovation and market competition,
Click to expand...


Yeah, but I don't know how many they're going to move at that price. While innovative, they're still behind the perception/status symbol curve when compared to the Prius.


----------



## DiveCon

Truthmatters said:


> DiveCon said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Truthmatters said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yeap I made a mistake there divecon, I missed the fact that it said federal judge.
> 
> I have made mistakes before this and will no doubt make mistakes after this.
> 
> I am sane enough to admitt a mistake.
> 
> Now link us up to any time you admitted to making a mistake.
> 
> 
> 
> wow, you actually admit it, finally
> and i have many times admitted mistakes
> i make so few though
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> I have always admitted mistakes on here and have done it several times.
> 
> You people just pretend I dont.
> 
> I have yet to see a con on here own up to their mistakes.
Click to expand...

more lies
you just cant tell the truth, can you?


----------



## HUGGY

DiveCon said:


> HUGGY said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> daveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> So where does the power in your wall sockets come from?  Unicorn hugs?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hydro electric.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> try and build a dam
> see how many enviro nuts try and stop you
Click to expand...


Don't need to.  We had the sense to build dozens of em in Washington State before the wackos became PC.  That is why we have about the cheapest electricity in the nation and have had for over 60 years.  The only real problem was with salmon spawning and returning to the ocean.  Fish ladders and special flous have taken care of that to a large degree.


----------



## DiveCon

HUGGY said:


> DiveCon said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> HUGGY said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hydro electric.
> 
> 
> 
> try and build a dam
> see how many enviro nuts try and stop you
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Don't need to.  We had the sense to build dozens of em in Washington State before the wackos became PC.  That is why we have about the cheapest electricity in the nation and have had for over 60 years.  The only real problem was with salmon spawning and returning to the ocean.  Fish ladders and special flous have taken care of that to a large degree.
Click to expand...

wait till they start trying to tear em down


----------



## daveman

RadiomanATL said:


> Even before the tax credit, $56,500 for a luxury sports car is well within current market norms.
> 
> Hell, look up the price of a 'vette, or a loaded camaro or loaded 'stang.
> 
> Now that chevy volt? Priced waaaay outside of market norms for a small sedan IMO.


Indeed.  In this case, you _don't_ get what you pay for, because the Volt has such an anemic range.


----------



## B. Kidd

Looks like the Leaf will need an installed vehicle home charging station. In other words a surge protector!

Nissan Leaf Home-Charging Station Makes Debut


----------



## daveman

HUGGY said:


> daveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yukon. said:
> 
> 
> 
> You dont know what you're talking about. Your ignorance with respect to this subject is stunning to say the least.
> 
> 
> 
> So where does the power in your wall sockets come from?  Unicorn hugs?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Hydro electric.
Click to expand...


Congratulations!  Only 6% of the power generated in the US comes from hydroelectric.


----------



## RadiomanATL

daveman said:


> RadiomanATL said:
> 
> 
> 
> Even before the tax credit, $56,500 for a luxury sports car is well within current market norms.
> 
> Hell, look up the price of a 'vette, or a loaded camaro or loaded 'stang.
> 
> Now that chevy volt? Priced waaaay outside of market norms for a small sedan IMO.
> 
> 
> 
> Indeed.  In this case, you _don't_ get what you pay for, because the Volt has such an anemic range.
Click to expand...


Volt has a good range. 300 miles isn't bad. Plus it can recharge on the go essentially. Thats whats innovative about it.

Its the price tag thats the cock-blocker here.


----------



## daveman

JBeukema said:


> Yes, Nice cars are expensive and new technologies are expensive at first.
> 
> What's your point? You think there aren't comparable IC cars that cost as much? Tesla is not a company that makes affordable vehicles for everyone. They specialize in high-end, high-performance electric vehicles.
> 
> Basically, they make electric Ferraris (see: Tesla Roadster)


My point is this is an extremely niche market.  Nobody's going to make an impact by buying a Tesla.  It's a toy.  Nothing more.


----------



## daveman

JBeukema said:


> Yes, high-end, high-performance vehicles like Ferrari and Tesla are expensive. What's your point?
> 
> Someone said the motors were inefficient and electric cars will n ever work. If that were true, Tesla couldn't make the vehicles they make.


Again:  This is an even smaller market than the S model.


----------



## bigrebnc1775

mudwhistle said:


> Philobeado said:
> 
> 
> 
> As an ELECTRICAL ENGINEER, I can tell you that electric cars are not viable
> 
> Either short term or long term, electric cars are a pipe dream. Conversion of electrical energy to mechanical energy in an automobile is highly inefficient. And most sources used to charge the batteries will remain fossil powered for a long time unless we allow new nuclear power plants to be built.
> 
> GM has shown they are truly government motors- providing an expensive complex solution for a problem that didn't exist.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's pretty clear that the goal isn't just to get us off fossil fuels...the goal is to get us out of our cars.
> 
> Only the rich will be able afford an automobile.
Click to expand...


This may sound like a conspiracy but at this point an time in my life things that are happening have not changed my mind. They want the American people to stay put. They want to stop us from being able to congregate together. You cannot believe the news media, so to keep people in the dark as to what is going on they want to restrict our travel.


----------



## daveman

RadiomanATL said:


> daveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> RadiomanATL said:
> 
> 
> 
> Even before the tax credit, $56,500 for a luxury sports car is well within current market norms.
> 
> Hell, look up the price of a 'vette, or a loaded camaro or loaded 'stang.
> 
> Now that chevy volt? Priced waaaay outside of market norms for a small sedan IMO.
> 
> 
> 
> Indeed.  In this case, you _don't_ get what you pay for, because the Volt has such an anemic range.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Volt has a good range. 300 miles isn't bad. Plus it can recharge on the go essentially. Thats whats innovative about it.
> 
> Its the price tag thats the cock-blocker here.
Click to expand...

The battery-only range is only 40 miles.


----------



## boedicca

The Volt:  All the comfort and style of a $15,000 econo car for a politcially correct $41,000 price tag.


----------



## Truthmatters

bigrebnc1775 said:


> mudwhistle said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Philobeado said:
> 
> 
> 
> As an ELECTRICAL ENGINEER, I can tell you that electric cars are not viable
> 
> Either short term or long term, electric cars are a pipe dream. Conversion of electrical energy to mechanical energy in an automobile is highly inefficient. And most sources used to charge the batteries will remain fossil powered for a long time unless we allow new nuclear power plants to be built.
> 
> GM has shown they are truly government motors- providing an expensive complex solution for a problem that didn't exist.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's pretty clear that the goal isn't just to get us off fossil fuels...the goal is to get us out of our cars.
> 
> Only the rich will be able afford an automobile.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> This may sound like a conspiracy but at this point an time in my life things that are happening have not changed my mind. They want the American people to stay put. They want to stop us from being able to congregate together. You cannot believe the news media, so to keep people in the dark as to what is going on they want to restrict our travel.
Click to expand...


your insane


----------



## RadiomanATL

daveman said:


> RadiomanATL said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> daveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> Indeed.  In this case, you _don't_ get what you pay for, because the Volt has such an anemic range.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Volt has a good range. 300 miles isn't bad. Plus it can recharge on the go essentially. Thats whats innovative about it.
> 
> Its the price tag thats the cock-blocker here.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The battery-only range is only 40 miles.
Click to expand...


Yeah, but thats not how it is supposed to be driven.

The generator charges the batteries while you are on the move. No need to have a large battery with a long range if the design specifically calls for that type of recharging capability. Waste of room and resources. 

Thats sorta like complaining that your brake pads only last 1,000 miles because you ride your brakes.


----------



## RadiomanATL

boedicca said:


> The Volt:  All the comfort and style of a $15,000 econo car for a politcially correct $41,000 price tag.



Thats really the bottom line there.


----------



## B. Kidd

Nothing real revolutionary about this technology. To me, it just looks like they adapted existing RV electric technology, to a motor, with batteries that hold a higher capacity charge which charge somewhat quicker than conventional batteries.
Only the battery capacity, output, and reduced charge time, seems to be the only real techno innovation.


----------



## daveman

RadiomanATL said:


> daveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> RadiomanATL said:
> 
> 
> 
> Volt has a good range. 300 miles isn't bad. Plus it can recharge on the go essentially. Thats whats innovative about it.
> 
> Its the price tag thats the cock-blocker here.
> 
> 
> 
> The battery-only range is only 40 miles.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yeah, but thats not how it is supposed to be driven.
> 
> The generator charges the batteries while you are on the move. No need to have a large battery with a long range if the design specifically calls for that type of recharging capability. Waste of room and resources.
> 
> Thats sorta like complaining that your brake pads only last 1,000 miles because you ride your brakes.
Click to expand...

I'm not saying it's not a good concept.  I'm saying electric vehicles aren't going to make much difference...because they just relocate the source of pollution from the tailpipe to the smokestack or the nuke waste dump.


----------



## B. Kidd

boedicca said:


> The Volt:  All the comfort and style of a $15,000 econo car for a politcially correct $41,000 price tag.



You hit the nail on the proverbial head. Last year I bought a new 2009 Toyota Yaris off the lot for $12,500.00 w/ power windows, mirrors,etc.., 38-39 mpg, wasn't the stripped down version. The dealer told me that the Yaris 4-cyl. engine is the same engine used in the hybrid Toyota Prius, with only the batteries and electrical assist added on. At that time, the base price for a basic hybrid Prius, was $26,000.00., more than double the Yaris price for approx. 2 more miles per gallon.
The mark-up is ridiculous, for practically the same vehicle. Actually my Yaris is nicer than the base Prius. And I can tow my Yaris 4 wheels down behind my RV.


----------



## Mad Scientist

daveman said:


> AVAILABLE NOW FROM $101,500* OR $1658/MO LEASE** WITH $9,900 DEPOSIT *Includes $7,500 Tax Incentive


My 2004 Doge Ram, which is paid for, gets about 18 mpg and I fill it up about 5-6 times a month. It usually takes a bout 20-22 gallons each fill up, that's about 60 bucks. Multiply that by 6, $360 a month, $4,320 a year.

That Tesla is $101,500 (Cars.com says 109,000 to 128,500) so with that money I would be able to fill up my truck, at todays' gas prices, for at least *23.5 years*. Plus, I can haul and tow *almost anything* with my truck.  Try that with that little Tesla suicide machine. 

I think I'll wait for ten years or so for the technology to mature and prices to drop.

Crash-test Ratings, Recalls & Consumer Reviews for the 2010 Tesla Roadster

[youtube]R2b9aW1qE9E[/youtube]


----------



## American Horse

DiveCon said:


> HUGGY said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> daveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> So where does the power in your wall sockets come from?  Unicorn hugs?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hydro electric.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> try and build a dam
> see how many enviro nuts try and stop you
Click to expand...

The damage to the environment with the silt and heavy metals clean-up after make hydro more costly than coal by some accounts


----------



## Truthmatters

I dont know why so many on the right dont like to employ science while making decisions.

They love to just knee jerk decide


----------



## Charles_Main

Truthmatters said:


> I dont know why so many on the right dont like to employ science while making decisions.
> 
> They love to just knee jerk decide



LOL how very Ironic coming from you.


----------



## Kat

Truthmatters said:


> I dont know why so many on the right dont like to employ science while making decisions.
> 
> They love to just knee jerk decide



Why do you hate so much?


----------



## Charles_Main

American Horse said:


> DiveCon said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> HUGGY said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hydro electric.
> 
> 
> 
> try and build a dam
> see how many enviro nuts try and stop you
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The damage to the environment with the silt and heavy metals clean-up after make hydro more costly than coal by some accounts
Click to expand...




New technology means we can produce Hydro Power with out Dams. Smaller free standing Turbines in Rivers, and in Areas to catch tidal forces can do the trick. You no longer need to damn up a river to use Hydro Electric power. Small Free standing turbines are already being put in NYC's East river. They can even be in a cage so no fish get into them.


----------



## Truthmatters

Charles_Main said:


> Truthmatters said:
> 
> 
> 
> I dont know why so many on the right dont like to employ science while making decisions.
> 
> They love to just knee jerk decide
> 
> 
> 
> 
> LOL how very Ironic coming from you.
Click to expand...


It is the right who constantly denies science.

From global warming to evolution.

You rewrite history and spew hate on higher education all the time.


----------



## RadiomanATL

Truthmatters said:


> Charles_Main said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Truthmatters said:
> 
> 
> 
> I dont know why so many on the right dont like to employ science while making decisions.
> 
> They love to just knee jerk decide
> 
> 
> 
> 
> LOL how very Ironic coming from you.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> It is the right who constantly denies science.
> 
> From global warming to evolution.
> 
> You rewrite history and spew hate on higher education all the time.
Click to expand...


Meanwhile the righties on this thread are actually discussing the science and the impacts of different energy options while you prattle on about how they deny and don't like science.

Reality doesn't intrude into your worldview very often, does it?


----------



## DiveCon

RadiomanATL said:


> Truthmatters said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Charles_Main said:
> 
> 
> 
> LOL how very Ironic coming from you.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It is the right who constantly denies science.
> 
> From global warming to evolution.
> 
> You rewrite history and spew hate on higher education all the time.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Meanwhile the righties on this thread are actually discussing the science and the impacts of different energy options while you prattle on about how they deny and don't like science.
> 
> Reality doesn't intrude into your worldview very often, does it?
Click to expand...

she is totally oblivious to reality


----------



## American Horse

Charles_Main said:


> American Horse said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> DiveCon said:
> 
> 
> 
> try and build a dam
> see how many enviro nuts try and stop you
> 
> 
> 
> The damage to the environment with the silt and heavy metals clean-up after make hydro more costly than coal by some accounts
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> New technology means we can produce Hydro Power with out Dams. Smaller free standing Turbines in Rivers, and in Areas to catch tidal forces can do the trick. You no longer need to damn up a river to use Hydro Electric power. Small Free standing turbines are already being put in NYC's East river. They can even be in a cage so no fish get into them.
Click to expand...


These are interesting, that's for sure but their capacity for generation is small, and there is a tendency to want to enhance the systems by collecting and then diverting water through a pipe, to a waterwheel or turbine.  That's because the ordinary speed flow of a river is not sufficient to generate sufficient quantities of electricity to justify the distribution system, so there is a compulsion to concentrate the water flow. After it turns the turbine it (the water) is returned to the stream. They seem to have approximately the capacity for generating electrical power as a wind turbine.  However the flow of water is constant, which is a big advantage over wind.  These would seem to be a good source of energy for some mountain towns, to supplement their regular purchases from larger somewhat remote power plants.

These are interesting, and ought to be encouraged by government grants and loans (FHA).

Your East River example is a tidal stream project, but that is confined to locations where tides raise water levels in estuaries on the coast. A case in point in Great Britain:

"The barrage will be a dam, a concrete barrier perforated with sluices and locks to let the tide push upriver, combined with a system of up to 300 underwater turbines built to spin on every falling tide. It&#8217;s not a new idea. An engineer named Thomas Fulljames first proposed a mile-long masonry barrage across the Severn in 1849, and other plans surfaced in the 1920s and 1970s, only to be rejected because of the cost."


----------



## Gremlin-USA

Truthmatters said:


> daveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Truthmatters said:
> 
> 
> 
> There they go denying science
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Which science is that?  The science that says the electricity in your wall socket that you plug your electric car into doesn't magically appear there, that it has to be generated somewhere else, with a 50/50 chance that it's derived from burning coal?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> At the momment that may be true but alternatives exsist and will continue to be developed.
> 
> In the future you willl be able to plug your car into a meter in every parking place instead of a parking meter.
> 
> Charge while you park at work and at home.
> 
> If every house had solar and wind capability things would be VERY different.
Click to expand...


Here is Covered Parking and a Recharger







.


----------



## Charles_Main

Truthmatters said:


> There they go denying science



What science?

Idiot.

The science that Proves 80% of our Electric Power comes from Fossil Fuels? Or the Science that shows that Electric cares are still very lacking in viability and at best a nitch item? Or How about the science that shows how incredibly Dirty making and disposing of batteries is? 

Seems to me someone is denying science, and it is you.

We do not need solutions that sound good and make you feel good. we need Solutions that WORK!


----------



## daveman

Mad Scientist said:


> daveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> AVAILABLE NOW FROM $101,500* OR $1658/MO LEASE** WITH $9,900 DEPOSIT *Includes $7,500 Tax Incentive
> 
> 
> 
> My 2004 Doge Ram, which is paid for, gets about 18 mpg and I fill it up about 5-6 times a month. It usually takes a bout 20-22 gallons each fill up, that's about 60 bucks. Multiply that by 6, $360 a month, $4,320 a year.
> 
> That Tesla is $101,500 (Cars.com says 109,000 to 128,500) so with that money I would be able to fill up my truck, at todays' gas prices, for at least *23.5 years*. Plus, I can haul and tow *almost anything* with my truck.  Try that with that little Tesla suicide machine.
> 
> I think I'll wait for ten years or so for the technology to mature and prices to drop.
> 
> Crash-test Ratings, Recalls & Consumer Reviews for the 2010 Tesla Roadster
> 
> [youtube]R2b9aW1qE9E[/youtube]
Click to expand...

The roadster is an expensive toy.  It's a proof-of-concept platform.  It'll be years before solely-electric vehicles are practical and affordable.


----------



## daveman

Gremlin-USA said:


> Truthmatters said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> daveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> Which science is that?  The science that says the electricity in your wall socket that you plug your electric car into doesn't magically appear there, that it has to be generated somewhere else, with a 50/50 chance that it's derived from burning coal?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> At the momment that may be true but alternatives exsist and will continue to be developed.
> 
> In the future you willl be able to plug your car into a meter in every parking place instead of a parking meter.
> 
> Charge while you park at work and at home.
> 
> If every house had solar and wind capability things would be VERY different.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Here is Covered Parking and a Recharger
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .
Click to expand...


How much does that cost?  Plus, you will still have to pull power from the grid during bad weather.


----------



## Charles_Main

daveman said:


> Gremlin-USA said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Truthmatters said:
> 
> 
> 
> At the momment that may be true but alternatives exsist and will continue to be developed.
> 
> In the future you willl be able to plug your car into a meter in every parking place instead of a parking meter.
> 
> Charge while you park at work and at home.
> 
> If every house had solar and wind capability things would be VERY different.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here is Covered Parking and a Recharger
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> How much does that cost?  Plus, you will still have to pull power from the grid during bad weather.
Click to expand...



Not to mention you still have a car that is useless to most of the Population because of its limited range, and utility.

I recently got an estimate to put Solar panels on my roof. Going off that I would bet that Car port charger there cost about 10 to 12 GRAND. To put panels on just one side of my roof, and install everything else you need to make it work. 16,560 Bucks. 

Needless to say I am currently still with out Solar power.


----------



## RadiomanATL

Charles_Main said:


> daveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Gremlin-USA said:
> 
> 
> 
> Here is Covered Parking and a Recharger
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How much does that cost?  Plus, you will still have to pull power from the grid during bad weather.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Not to mention you still have a car that is *useless to most of the Population because of its limited range, and utility.
> *
Click to expand...


I think that describes most high end luxury sports cars. 

Really, the Tesla seems to be on par with other, gasoline powered, cars of the same genre.

An expensive toy.


----------



## daveman

Charles_Main said:


> Not to mention you still have a car that is useless to most of the Population because of its limited range, and utility.
> 
> I recently got an estimate to put Solar panels on my roof. Going off that I would bet that Car port charger there cost about 10 to 12 GRAND. To put panels on just one side of my roof, and install everything else you need to make it work. 16,560 Bucks.
> 
> Needless to say I am currently still with out Solar power.


There are all kinds of websites out there showing you how to make hot water with solar.  Much easier and cheaper than making electricity.  Return on investment far sooner.


----------



## bigrebnc1775

Truthmatters said:


> bigrebnc1775 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> mudwhistle said:
> 
> 
> 
> It's pretty clear that the goal isn't just to get us off fossil fuels...the goal is to get us out of our cars.
> 
> Only the rich will be able afford an automobile.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This may sound like a conspiracy but at this point an time in my life things that are happening have not changed my mind. They want the American people to stay put. They want to stop us from being able to congregate together. You cannot believe the news media, so to keep people in the dark as to what is going on they want to restrict our travel.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> your insane
Click to expand...


Right of course you're insane. But anyway what is incorrect with what I said? When I say restrict I mean make it more costly or incovenat for people to travel


----------



## Jeremy

I swear to the fucking kangaroo gods that the funniest damn thing you can do is ask an enviro-lib how the fuck electric cars help cut down on co2. 

Huh...wha? electricity comes from a plug not ... uh ... you know what I mean .. uh ... oh fuck I dropped my one hitter...


----------



## Harry Dresden

Yukon. said:


> Your ignorance with respect to this subject is stunning to say the least.



yea....you know more about what goes on at a NAMBLA convention than Dave does  anyday....Davey you should know better....


----------



## Cuyo

daveman said:


> Electric vehicles don't eliminate pollution; they merely relocate it.  And given the toxic materials used to make the batteries, they're more hazardous to the environment than fuel-burning engines.



That's not entirely true.   It is true that even in an emission free strictly electric vehicle, you are most likely consuming electric made from fossil fuels. However, the grid does not work as simplistically as that.  More power used does not necessarily mean more fuel being burned - It's more of a plateau.  Moreover the power plant is far more efficient per U/M than an internal combustion engine that only powers one vehicle.

Ever had to rent a commercial generator to provide power to a home or building?  If you had you'd see what I mean...

While a zero-emission vehicle is not really so due to the source of power, you will save money and reduce your carbon footprint if you can stand the rather short running time between charges.


----------



## Harry Dresden

Truthmatters said:


> I am sane enough to admitt a mistake.
> 
> Now link us up to any time you admitted to making a mistake.



you only admitted it right here.....i was in that thread..... you disappeared......

and Dive has admitted before when he was wrong.....the difference between him and you.....he did it in the thread he made the mistake in....not a week later in another thread.....


----------



## DiveCon

Harry Dresden said:


> Truthmatters said:
> 
> 
> 
> I am sane enough to admitt a mistake.
> 
> Now link us up to any time you admitted to making a mistake.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> you only admitted it right here.....i was in that thread..... you disappeared......
> 
> and Dive has admitted before when he was wrong.....the difference between him and you.....he did it in the thread he made the mistake in....not a week later in another thread.....
Click to expand...

and in the POST i made the mistake


----------



## Cuyo

Jeremy said:


> I swear to the fucking kangaroo gods that the funniest damn thing you can do is ask an enviro-lib how the fuck electric cars help cut down on co2.
> 
> Huh...wha? electricity comes from a plug not ... uh ... you know what I mean .. uh ... oh fuck I dropped my one hitter...



^^ Post 89.

Do I need to get supporting documentation or will you just take my word for it? (take my word for it)


----------



## Harry Dresden

Truthmatters said:


> I have *always* admitted mistakes on here and have done it several times.
> 
> You people just pretend I dont.
> 
> I have yet to see a con on here own up to their mistakes.



no you havent.....and there have been many righties here who admit mistakes when it happens.....maybe your problem is YOU pretend they didnt...


----------



## westwall

Truthmatters said:


> There they go denying science






You defy reality.


----------



## westwall

Truthmatters said:


> daveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Truthmatters said:
> 
> 
> 
> There they go denying science
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Which science is that?  The science that says the electricity in your wall socket that you plug your electric car into doesn't magically appear there, that it has to be generated somewhere else, with a 50/50 chance that it's derived from burning coal?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> At the momment that may be true but alternatives exsist and will continue to be developed.
> 
> In the future you willl be able to plug your car into a meter in every parking place instead of a parking meter.
> 
> Charge while you park at work and at home.
> 
> If every house had solar and wind capability things would be VERY different.
Click to expand...






But, but, but the poor people (and in California the middle class) mainly live in apartments.
How prey tell do you get windmills and solar power to them?  Also most neighborhoods do not allow windmills unless you have at least an acre and the setback even then is usually around 50-60 feet.  Also who's going to spend the BILLIONS of dollars to wire all those parking lots?  Paying the bill will be interesting as well.

Hate to tell you truthiness but you are the uninformed here.


----------



## westwall

JBeukema said:


> Philobeado said:
> 
> 
> 
> As an ELECTRICAL ENGINEER, I can tell you that electric cars are not viable
> 
> Either short term or long term, electric cars are a pipe dream. Conversion of electrical energy to mechanical energy in an automobile is highly inefficient.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How does he explain this?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Model S | Tesla Motors
Click to expand...





It hasn't been built yet.  Not expected till 2012.   Even then the electricity still comes from fossil fuels so while the tailpipe might not emit it still pollutes more than a well maintained ICE automobile.  Oh yeah that 50K price tag puts it out of the reach of 90% of the population of the US.  And don't forget the 30K battery replacement charge if the vehicle actually lasts that long.

There are dozens of vehicles that use an ICE and pollute LESS than a Tesla and cost around 20K or less.


----------



## Harry Dresden

Truthmatters said:


> Charles_Main said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Truthmatters said:
> 
> 
> 
> I dont know why so many on the right dont like to employ science while making decisions.
> 
> They love to just knee jerk decide
> 
> 
> 
> 
> LOL how very Ironic coming from you.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> It is the right who constantly denies science.
> 
> From global warming to evolution.
> 
> You rewrite history and spew hate on higher education all the time.
Click to expand...


all your doing is being an Rdean clone......now we got stereo....


----------



## westwall

JBeukema said:


> Or this
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Electric Tesla Roadster | Tesla Motors
> 
> ?







101,000 dollars and as stated before a well maintined vehicle with an ICE pollutes less.  Oh yeah that price tag puts it out of reach of 99% of the population of the US.  Power to the PEOPLE!

Riiiiight!


----------



## RadiomanATL

westwall said:


> JBeukema said:
> 
> 
> 
> Or this
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Electric Tesla Roadster | Tesla Motors
> 
> ?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 101,000 dollars and as stated before a well maintined vehicle with an ICE pollutes less.  Oh yeah that price tag puts it out of reach of 99% of the population of the US.  Power to the PEOPLE!
> 
> Riiiiight!
Click to expand...


So's a Ferrari. 

As I stated earlier, the Tesla vehicles seem to be down the line comparable to high end luxury sports cars. Price, range, luxury....well, the Tesla's DO outperform when it comes to acceleration though.


----------



## Harry Dresden

DiveCon said:


> RadiomanATL said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Truthmatters said:
> 
> 
> 
> It is the right who constantly denies science.
> 
> From global warming to evolution.
> 
> You rewrite history and spew hate on higher education all the time.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Meanwhile the righties on this thread are actually discussing the science and the impacts of different energy options while you prattle on about how they deny and don't like science.
> 
> Reality doesn't intrude into your worldview very often, does it?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> she is totally oblivious to reality
Click to expand...


totally.....unless....she twists the hell out of it....and makes it a....."Truthwillbeonlyifigettodothetwistingmatters".....


----------



## daveman

Cuyo said:


> daveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> Electric vehicles don't eliminate pollution; they merely relocate it.  And given the toxic materials used to make the batteries, they're more hazardous to the environment than fuel-burning engines.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That's not entirely true.   It is true that even in an emission free strictly electric vehicle, you are most likely consuming electric made from fossil fuels. However, the grid does not work as simplistically as that.  More power used does not necessarily mean more fuel being burned - It's more of a plateau.  Moreover the power plant is far more efficient per U/M than an internal combustion engine that only powers one vehicle.
Click to expand...

Yes, to the efficiency; no to the "More power used does not necessarily mean more fuel being burned" thing.  


Cuyo said:


> Ever had to rent a commercial generator to provide power to a home or building?  If you had you'd see what I mean...


Generators is what I do for the Air Force.  So I know what I'm talking about when I disagree with you.  
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2vlDtP8T_5I]YouTube - Camp Sather, Iraq, Power Plant[/ame]



Cuyo said:


> While a zero-emission vehicle is not really so due to the source of power, you will save money and reduce your carbon footprint if you can stand the rather short running time between charges.


Agreed.  Although it's going to take a long time to recoup your investment in gas saved.


----------



## saveliberty

The purpose of the Volt is to meet CAFE standards.  Note that is based on building them and not necessarily letting the public own them or even drive them.  My guess is they have the high price so GM can scrap them and create a nice tax deduction for themselves.

Upside:  You can call into work and claim the neighbor kids unplugged your car.  You'll be late for work.


----------



## rdean

JBeukema said:


> daveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JBeukema said:
> 
> 
> 
> How does he explain this?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Model S | Tesla Motors
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> NOW TAKING RESERVATIONS
> PRODUCTION BEGINS 2012
> $5,000 REFUNDABLE RESERVATION
> BASE PRICE: $49,000*
> 
> *Price includes $7,500 US Federal tax credit
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, Nice cars are expensive and new technologies are expensive at first.
> 
> What's your point? You think there aren't comparable IC cars that cost as much? Tesla is not a company that makes affordable vehicles for everyone. They specialize in high-end, high-performance electric vehicles.
> 
> Basically, they make electric Ferraris (see: Tesla Roadster)
Click to expand...


I remember when the company I work at bought a CD Rom burner for $1,500 for a computer (just the burner, not the computer) and it sometimes failed to copy or stopped half way.

Now you can get one from Tiger Direct that does DVD read and write for 19 bucks.  I just stopped and looked it up.

Time Magazine called the 1908 Ford Model T number one in the 20 worst cars ever made.  Top speed around 40 mph, 10 gallon gas tank that took you a little over 100 miles.  
Yet, they sold in the US more than 15,000,000.  And for the time, they were expensive and gas stations were almost no where.  

If the right wing had is way, we would be Afghanistan.  They stand in the way of everything.  Except wars.  They like wars.


----------



## daveman

rdean said:


> If the right wing had is way, we would be Afghanistan.  They stand in the way of everything.  Except wars.  They like wars.



Note to rdean:  Government control of every single aspect of individual lives is _not_ progress.  It's Progressive, but it's not progress.

Meanwhile, you'd be hard pressed to find anyone in this thread who doesn't think electric vehicles should be developed.


----------



## Avorysuds

Truthmatters said:


> I dont know why so many on the right dont like to employ science while making decisions.
> 
> They love to just knee jerk decide



TM, everytime you post you make yourself look like the south end of a donkey facing North.

As one poster keeps asking over and over... Where does the power come from to charge this car??? You can claim conservatives hate science everytime you don't know wtf you're talking about and need to pull a BS card, but why does it seem like you HATE LOGIC!?!

I want a car that can travel though space and time, cause no pollution and runs of me thinking about where I want to go!!! See how fing green I can be!!!

Now if my time traveling space car ran off eating planets but pooped out rainbows you would be fighting CONSERVATIVES till you die!!! Right on TM!!!


----------



## JBeukema

RadiomanATL said:


> JBeukema said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> RadiomanATL said:
> 
> 
> 
> Even before the tax credit, $56,500 for a luxury sports car is well within current market norms.
> 
> Hell, look up the price of a 'vette, or a loaded camaro or loaded 'stang.
> 
> Now that chevy volt? Priced waaaay outside of market norms for a small sedan IMO.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The volt is like designer jeans. You pay for the name, the image.
> 
> If the history of everything else is any indication, prices on electric vehicles will come down with innovation and market competition,
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yeah, but I don't know how many they're going to move at that price. While innovative, they're still behind the perception/status symbol curve when compared to the Prius.
Click to expand...



They're idiots. What do you want me to say?

They wise up or they lose to a competitor with more smarts. That's how the market works.


----------



## JBeukema

HUGGY said:


> DiveCon said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> HUGGY said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hydro electric.
> 
> 
> 
> try and build a dam
> see how many enviro nuts try and stop you
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Don't need to.  We had the sense to build dozens of em in Washington State before the wackos became PC.  That is why we have about the cheapest electricity in the nation and have had for over 60 years.  The only real problem was with salmon spawning and returning to the ocean.  Fish ladders and special flous have taken care of that to a large degree.
Click to expand...

Can you source those matters in red please?


----------



## JBeukema

Mad Scientist said:


> daveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> AVAILABLE NOW FROM $101,500* OR $1658/MO LEASE** WITH $9,900 DEPOSIT *Includes $7,500 Tax Incentive
> 
> 
> 
> My 2004 Doge Ram, which is paid for, gets about 18 mpg and I fill it up about 5-6 times a month. It usually takes a bout 20-22 gallons each fill up, that's about 60 bucks. Multiply that by 6, $360 a month, $4,320 a year.
> 
> That Tesla is $101,500 (Cars.com says 109,000 to 128,500) so with that money I would be able to fill up my truck, at todays' gas prices, for at least *23.5 years*. Plus, I can haul and tow *almost anything* with my truck.  Try that with that little Tesla suicide machine.
> 
> I think I'll wait for ten years or so for the technology to mature and prices to drop.
> 
> Crash-test Ratings, Recalls & Consumer Reviews for the 2010 Tesla Roadster
> 
> [youtube]R2b9aW1qE9E[/youtube]
Click to expand...



You call it a suicide machine and post a video of it performing well- better than the actual requirements, in one test- in the crash tests


----------



## JBeukema

American Horse said:


> DiveCon said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> HUGGY said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hydro electric.
> 
> 
> 
> try and build a dam
> see how many enviro nuts try and stop you
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The damage to the environment with the silt and heavy metals clean-up after make hydro more costly than coal by some accounts
Click to expand...

Can you source that, please?


----------



## JBeukema

Charles_Main said:


> American Horse said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> DiveCon said:
> 
> 
> 
> try and build a dam
> see how many enviro nuts try and stop you
> 
> 
> 
> The damage to the environment with the silt and heavy metals clean-up after make hydro more costly than coal by some accounts
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> New technology means we can produce Hydro Power with out Dams. Smaller free standing Turbines in Rivers, and in Areas to catch tidal forces can do the trick. You no longer need to damn up a river to use Hydro Electric power. Small Free standing turbines are already being put in NYC's East river. They can even be in a cage so no fish get into them.
Click to expand...



Can you source those claims, please?


----------



## JBeukema

Gremlin-USA said:


> Truthmatters said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> daveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> Which science is that?  The science that says the electricity in your wall socket that you plug your electric car into doesn't magically appear there, that it has to be generated somewhere else, with a 50/50 chance that it's derived from burning coal?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> At the momment that may be true but alternatives exsist and will continue to be developed.
> 
> In the future you willl be able to plug your car into a meter in every parking place instead of a parking meter.
> 
> Charge while you park at work and at home.
> 
> If every house had solar and wind capability things would be VERY different.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Here is Covered Parking and a Recharger
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .
Click to expand...



And how feasible is large-scale use of such systems?


----------



## JBeukema

daveman said:


> Mad Scientist said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> daveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> AVAILABLE NOW FROM $101,500* OR $1658/MO LEASE** WITH $9,900 DEPOSIT *Includes $7,500 Tax Incentive
> 
> 
> 
> My 2004 Doge Ram, which is paid for, gets about 18 mpg and I fill it up about 5-6 times a month. It usually takes a bout 20-22 gallons each fill up, that's about 60 bucks. Multiply that by 6, $360 a month, $4,320 a year.
> 
> That Tesla is $101,500 (Cars.com says 109,000 to 128,500) so with that money I would be able to fill up my truck, at todays' gas prices, for at least *23.5 years*. Plus, I can haul and tow *almost anything* with my truck.  Try that with that little Tesla suicide machine.
> 
> I think I'll wait for ten years or so for the technology to mature and prices to drop.
> 
> Crash-test Ratings, Recalls & Consumer Reviews for the 2010 Tesla Roadster
> 
> [youtube]R2b9aW1qE9E[/youtube]
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The roadster is an expensive toy.  It's a proof-of-concept platform.  It'll be years before solely-electric vehicles are practical and affordable.
Click to expand...



The Roadster was brought up only to counter the claims that these cars are necessarily inefficient and lacking in range. The Roadtser proves that  that electric can be feasible for most applications* and meet IC in speed and general performance, while meeting most peoples' travel needs.



*I've not heard of any electric motor than can possibly be used to replace big Diesel engines in semis, dump trucks, and the like


----------



## JBeukema

Charles_Main said:


> daveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Gremlin-USA said:
> 
> 
> 
> Here is Covered Parking and a Recharger
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How much does that cost?  Plus, you will still have to pull power from the grid during bad weather.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Not to mention you still have a car that is useless to most of the Population because of its limited range, and utility.
> 
> I recently got an estimate to put Solar panels on my roof. Going off that I would bet that Car port charger there cost about 10 to 12 GRAND. To put panels on just one side of my roof, and install everything else you need to make it work. 16,560 Bucks.
> 
> Needless to say I am currently still with out Solar power.
Click to expand...



Limited range?

245 miles/charge...

Utility? It's a luxury sports car. It matches any other car in its class for utility. You're complaining about a Corvette not being able to haul a trailer? It's not designed for that. It's not meant for that.

It's a fucking luxury sports car


----------



## JBeukema

RadiomanATL said:


> westwall said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JBeukema said:
> 
> 
> 
> Or this
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Electric Tesla Roadster | Tesla Motors
> 
> ?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 101,000 dollars and as stated before a well maintined vehicle with an ICE pollutes less.  Oh yeah that price tag puts it out of reach of 99% of the population of the US.  Power to the PEOPLE!
> 
> Riiiiight!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> So's a Ferrari.
> 
> As I stated earlier, the Tesla vehicles seem to be down the line comparable to high end luxury sports cars. Price, range, luxury....well, the Tesla's DO outperform when it comes to acceleration though.
Click to expand...



Motors beat engines off the line.

It's that simple. 

People here are either retarded or dishonest. The Tesla vehicles were mentioned to prove they can match performance with ICE vehicles. Nobody ever claimed they were designed for widespread use by the middle class any more than a 'vette is.

I linked to a vehicle someone made for less than a grand to show that you can also achieve extremely inexpensive machines.

Just like ICE, you can make vehicles at both ends and in the middle.


----------



## JBeukema

daveman said:


> Cuyo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> daveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> Electric vehicles don't eliminate pollution; they merely relocate it.  And given the toxic materials used to make the batteries, they're more hazardous to the environment than fuel-burning engines.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That's not entirely true.   It is true that even in an emission free strictly electric vehicle, you are most likely consuming electric made from fossil fuels. However, the grid does not work as simplistically as that.  More power used does not necessarily mean more fuel being burned - It's more of a plateau.  Moreover the power plant is far more efficient per U/M than an internal combustion engine that only powers one vehicle.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Yes, to the efficiency; no to the "More power used does not necessarily mean more fuel being burned" thing.
> 
> 
> Cuyo said:
> 
> 
> 
> Ever had to rent a commercial generator to provide power to a home or building?  If you had you'd see what I mean...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Generators is what I do for the Air Force.  So I know what I'm talking about when I disagree with you.
Click to expand...




You just agreed with him


----------



## RadiomanATL

JBeukema said:


> RadiomanATL said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JBeukema said:
> 
> 
> 
> The volt is like designer jeans. You pay for the name, the image.
> 
> If the history of everything else is any indication, prices on electric vehicles will come down with innovation and market competition,
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, but I don't know how many they're going to move at that price. While innovative, they're still behind the perception/status symbol curve when compared to the Prius.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> They're idiots. What do you want me to say?
> 
> They wise up or they lose to a competitor with more smarts. That's how the market works.
Click to expand...


I don't disagree. Just making conversation.


----------



## Cuyo

daveman said:


> Cuyo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> daveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> Electric vehicles don't eliminate pollution; they merely relocate it.  And given the toxic materials used to make the batteries, they're more hazardous to the environment than fuel-burning engines.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That's not entirely true.   It is true that even in an emission free strictly electric vehicle, you are most likely consuming electric made from fossil fuels. However, the grid does not work as simplistically as that.  More power used does not necessarily mean more fuel being burned - It's more of a plateau.  Moreover the power plant is far more efficient per U/M than an internal combustion engine that only powers one vehicle.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Yes, to the efficiency; no to the "More power used does not necessarily mean more fuel being burned" thing.
> 
> 
> Cuyo said:
> 
> 
> 
> Ever had to rent a commercial generator to provide power to a home or building?  If you had you'd see what I mean...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Generators is what I do for the Air Force.  So I know what I'm talking about when I disagree with you.
> 
> 
> 
> Cuyo said:
> 
> 
> 
> While a zero-emission vehicle is not really so due to the source of power, you will save money and reduce your carbon footprint if you can stand the rather short running time between charges.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Agreed.  Although it's going to take a long time to recoup your investment in gas saved.
Click to expand...


It's too early to individually quote and respond to each aspect of this.

There's plenty of time when power plants are at idle and burning more fuel than is necessary to provide the power being used, particularly at night (When the most EV's are likely to be charging).  In other words, you can draw more power off the grid without the power plant having to burn more to compensate.  This speaks to the carbon reduction aspect, but not the money saved aspect, as you'll still get charged.  On a macro level, it's actually fair to say it may save everyone money by stabilizing the power needed throughout the day, hence making power plant operation more efficient for the utility provider.  It's also fair to say that the resulting drop in demand for gasoline will save everyone money, not just EV owners.

As far as taking a long time to recoup your investment, well there's just way to many variables to address that.  5 mile commute like myself, yes probably, even though my Dakota gets a whopping 14-17 MPG.  It depends too much on what you drive now, how often/far, what the price of gas does, what the price of electric does, how much you spend on the EV, etc.  In the right scenario it may not take as long as you think.

As far as this statement...


> Generators is what I do for the Air Force.  So I know what I'm talking about when I disagree with you.


What's to disagree with?  I rented one to power a 100-amp box some years ago when we had a fire at work... Damn thing waxed $60 worth of diesel a day... And in fact I kept overloading it and having to hit the breaker on the genny. And I damn sure never got no $1800 electric bill over there.

I know the big boys in your video are probably more efficient than the one I used, but the one I used is probably more akin to the ICE in a personal vehicle.


----------



## midcan5

Why do conservatives hate America?  There were no negative threads when Toyota or Nissan came out with electric?  The dislike conservatives show toward America's work force, technological accomplishments, and government is bewildering. They wave flags as but criticize the place they live in and off.  Reagan's firing of America workers is the model for today. How odd. 


Join me, please.

I was riding home today after a middle distance bicycle ride, tired and a bit out of shape when I started counting cars, America - foreign, American - foreign. It occurred to me if only a small percentage of these people, the people who can afford more than a used clunker, bought American there would be no problems in one of our largest industries today. And lots of people would have a job and lots of businesses would be OK. May even help those incompetent bankers.

So I started giving thumbs up for American and thumbs down for foreign. Hard to distinguish which foreign car is made here, but no need I am a bit of a hard core American when it comes to cars. My '55' Chevy was my first love.

I'm sure the people thought me spastic, as my left hand thumb pointed up, then down, then up as cars drove by. Did anyone figure it out I wondered. Who is this nut! So if the whiners who lost the election can out of the blue, protest taxes, can we not protest something that has been going on for years due to cheaper prices, support structures, and no pensions, but still is having an insidious affect on our industrial base?

So if you own foreign go to you nearest mirror and give yourself a thumbs down and if you own American and thus support all of us and America, a thumbs up is due and thank you. Take to the streets and express yourself. The bankers thank you too.

Oh, and my bicycle is made in America too.


----------



## RadiomanATL

midcan5 said:


> Why do conservatives hate America?  There were no negative threads when Toyota or Nissan came out with electric?  The dislike conservatives show toward America's work force, technological accomplishments, and government is bewildering. They wave flags as but criticize the place they live in and off.  Reagan's firing of America workers is the model for today. How odd.
> 
> 
> Join me, please.
> 
> I was riding home today after a middle distance bicycle ride, tired and a bit out of shape when I started counting cars, America - foreign, American - foreign. It occurred to me if only a small percentage of these people, the people who can afford more than a used clunker, bought American there would be no problems in one of our largest industries today. And lots of people would have a job and lots of businesses would be OK. May even help those incompetent bankers.
> 
> So I started giving thumbs up for American and thumbs down for foreign. Hard to distinguish which foreign car is made here, but no need I am a bit of a hard core American when it comes to cars. My '55' Chevy was my first love.
> 
> I'm sure the people thought me spastic, as my left hand thumb pointed up, then down, then up as cars drove by. Did anyone figure it out I wondered. Who is this nut! So if the whiners who lost the election can out of the blue, protest taxes, can we not protest something that has been going on for years due to cheaper prices, support structures, and no pensions, but still is having an insidious affect on our industrial base?
> 
> So if you own foreign go to you nearest mirror and give yourself a thumbs down and if you own American and thus support all of us and America, a thumbs up is due and thank you. Take to the streets and express yourself. The bankers thank you too.
> 
> Oh, and my bicycle is made in America too.



You're not really paying attention, are you?


----------



## bigrebnc1775

midcan5 said:


> Why do conservatives hate America?  There were no negative threads when Toyota or Nissan came out with electric?  The dislike conservatives show toward America's work force, technological accomplishments, and government is bewildering. They wave flags as but criticize the place they live in and off.  Reagan's firing of America workers is the model for today. How odd.
> 
> 
> Join me, please.
> 
> I was riding home today after a middle distance bicycle ride, tired and a bit out of shape when I started counting cars, America - foreign, American - foreign. It occurred to me if only a small percentage of these people, the people who can afford more than a used clunker, bought American there would be no problems in one of our largest industries today. And lots of people would have a job and lots of businesses would be OK. May even help those incompetent bankers.
> 
> So I started giving thumbs up for American and thumbs down for foreign. Hard to distinguish which foreign car is made here, but no need I am a bit of a hard core American when it comes to cars. My '55' Chevy was my first love.
> 
> I'm sure the people thought me spastic, as my left hand thumb pointed up, then down, then up as cars drove by. Did anyone figure it out I wondered. Who is this nut! So if the whiners who lost the election can out of the blue, protest taxes, can we not protest something that has been going on for years due to cheaper prices, support structures, and no pensions, but still is having an insidious affect on our industrial base?
> 
> So if you own foreign go to you nearest mirror and give yourself a thumbs down and if you own American and thus support all of us and America, a thumbs up is due and thank you. Take to the streets and express yourself. The bankers thank you too.
> 
> Oh, and my bicycle is made in America too.



Why do people change something that they like? Conservatives are not trying to change America liberals are.February 18, 2008
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=znun3cP3aoA]YouTube - MICHELLE OBAMA PROUD OF AMERICA FOR FIRST TIME - NEWS[/ame]


----------



## Harry Dresden

rdean said:


> If the right wing had is way, we would be Afghanistan.  They stand in the way of everything.  Except wars.  They like wars.



and if your people the FAR left had its way.....this whole Country would be going through what California is going through.....only worse......


----------



## Yukon.

Rdean,

Dont waste your time explaining the horrors of war to cowradly, bloated, right-wing cowards. Those of us who have served understand what horror is.


----------



## Harry Dresden

midcan5 said:


> Why do conservatives hate America?




why dont you find a Conservative who hates the Country and ask them?..... since i know of a FAR-leftist who hates the country ill ask him why.....hey Midcan...why do you hate this Country so much?......


----------



## Yukon.

Conservatives hate America because America is controlled by a Negro President.


----------



## Harry Dresden

Yukon. said:


> Rdean,
> 
> Dont waste your time explaining the horrors of war to cowradly, bloated, right-wing cowards. Those of us who have served understand what horror is.



oh here he is.....the phony military guy who would not give the vets in that other thread were you made the same claim,only in that one you said you were a vietnam vet....... the questions they were asking you,for some reason....you said i dont have to answer your questions.....and left the thread.....and those little boys Yukon....remember them?.....they know what horror is too....


----------



## Harry Dresden

Yukon. said:


> Conservatives hate America because America is controlled by a Negro President.



America has a black President?.....but his mom was a white woman?....and the President does not CONTROL the Country.....


----------



## bigrebnc1775

Yukon. said:


> Rdean,
> 
> Dont waste your time explaining the horrors of war to cowradly, bloated, right-wing cowards. Those of us who have served understand what horror is.



I'm one of those who have served and I call BULLSHIT on your reply and rdeans reply.
Care to tell me what your MOS or AFSC was? Oh and Jehovah's Witnesses don't join the military they are anti government which I do believe that you are a Jehovah's Witnesses. I remember your 144,000 comment.


----------



## Yukon.

bigrebnc1775 said:


> Yukon. said:
> 
> 
> 
> Rdean,
> 
> Dont waste your time explaining the horrors of war to cowradly, bloated, right-wing cowards. Those of us who have served understand what horror is.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm one of those who have served and I call BULLSHIT on your reply and rdeans reply.
> Care to tell me what your MOS or AFSC was? Oh and Jehovah's Witnesses don't join the military they are anti government which I do believe that you are a Jehovah's Witnesses. I remember your 144,000 comment.
Click to expand...


You rotting, cowardly, vile, disgusting, lying, waste of human flesh. How dare you challenge my service or my patriotism.


----------



## RadiomanATL

Yukon. said:


> bigrebnc1775 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yukon. said:
> 
> 
> 
> Rdean,
> 
> Dont waste your time explaining the horrors of war to cowradly, bloated, right-wing cowards. Those of us who have served understand what horror is.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm one of those who have served and I call BULLSHIT on your reply and rdeans reply.
> Care to tell me what your MOS or AFSC was? Oh and Jehovah's Witnesses don't join the military they are anti government which I do believe that you are a Jehovah's Witnesses. I remember your 144,000 comment.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You rotting, cowardly, vile, disgusting, lying, waste of human flesh. How dare you challenge my service or my patriotism.
Click to expand...


----------



## daveman

JBeukema said:


> The Roadster was brought up only to counter the claims that these cars are necessarily inefficient and lacking in range. The Roadtser proves that  that electric can be feasible for most applications* and meet IC in speed and general performance, while meeting most peoples' travel needs.
> 
> 
> 
> *I've not heard of any electric motor than can possibly be used to replace big Diesel engines in semis, dump trucks, and the like


Oh, you can get a thousand-HP electric motor -- look no further than the nearest railroad.  That's not the limitation.  The limitation is the battery.  A motor that big has to have an engine-driven alternator to power it.


----------



## daveman

JBeukema said:


> daveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cuyo said:
> 
> 
> 
> That's not entirely true.   It is true that even in an emission free strictly electric vehicle, you are most likely consuming electric made from fossil fuels. However, the grid does not work as simplistically as that.  More power used does not necessarily mean more fuel being burned - It's more of a plateau.  Moreover the power plant is far more efficient per U/M than an internal combustion engine that only powers one vehicle.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, to the efficiency; no to the "More power used does not necessarily mean more fuel being burned" thing.
> 
> 
> Cuyo said:
> 
> 
> 
> Ever had to rent a commercial generator to provide power to a home or building?  If you had you'd see what I mean...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Generators is what I do for the Air Force.  So I know what I'm talking about when I disagree with you.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You just agreed with him
Click to expand...


"... no to the 'More power used does not necessarily mean more fuel being burned' thing."  That statement is incorrect.


----------



## WillowTree

Harry Dresden said:


> Yukon. said:
> 
> 
> 
> Conservatives hate America because America is controlled by a Negro President.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> America has a black President?.....but his mom was a white woman?....and the President does not CONTROL the Country.....
Click to expand...


He sure as fuck tries Harry. He sure as fuck tries.


----------



## NYcarbineer

daveman said:


> Electric vehicles don't eliminate pollution; they merely relocate it.  And given the toxic materials used to make the batteries, they're more hazardous to the environment than fuel-burning engines.



What's the problem with the batteries?


----------



## daveman

Cuyo said:


> It's too early to individually quote and respond to each aspect of this.
> 
> There's plenty of time when power plants are at idle and burning more fuel than is necessary to provide the power being used, particularly at night (When the most EV's are likely to be charging).  In other words, you can draw more power off the grid without the power plant having to burn more to compensate.  This speaks to the carbon reduction aspect, but not the money saved aspect, as you'll still get charged.  On a macro level, it's actually fair to say it may save everyone money by stabilizing the power needed throughout the day, hence making power plant operation more efficient for the utility provider.  It's also fair to say that the resulting drop in demand for gasoline will save everyone money, not just EV owners.


Again, this is incorrect.  A power plant has to burn a fixed amount of fuel just to keep itself in operation...power for the plant itself, steam to keep the offline turbines hot, stuff like that.  Every single kilowatt of power drawn by the grid over that requires additional fuel to be burned.  No fuel is burned that isn't necessary.  Fuel is the single biggest cost of a power plant; they're not going to burn any more than they need to.  A pound of burning fuel represents a lot of energy...if it isn't redirected to the grid as electricity, it still has to go somewhere as heat.  

But you are correct that it would be better to recharge at night...demand is lower, so there would be less stress on the grid.


Cuyo said:


> As far as taking a long time to recoup your investment, well there's just way to many variables to address that.  5 mile commute like myself, yes probably, even though my Dakota gets a whopping 14-17 MPG.  It depends too much on what you drive now, how often/far, what the price of gas does, what the price of electric does, how much you spend on the EV, etc.  In the right scenario it may not take as long as you think.


Agreed.


Cuyo said:


> As far as this statement...
> 
> 
> 
> Generators is what I do for the Air Force.  So I know what I'm talking about when I disagree with you.
> 
> 
> 
> What's to disagree with?
Click to expand...

Your claim that "More power used does not necessarily mean more fuel being burned".


Cuyo said:


> I rented one to power a 100-amp box some years ago when we had a fire at work... Damn thing waxed $60 worth of diesel a day... And in fact I kept overloading it and having to hit the breaker on the genny. And I damn sure never got no $1800 electric bill over there.
> 
> I know the big boys in your video are probably more efficient than the one I used, but the one I used is probably more akin to the ICE in a personal vehicle.


There is an economy of scale, certainly.  The units in the video are rated at 750kW (although they'll hold an even megawatt if the current stays below 120 amps per phase -- the hot side of the turbos glow cherry red ) and burn 50 gallons of fuel an hour at full load.


----------



## daveman

Yukon. said:


> Rdean,
> 
> Dont waste your time explaining the horrors of war to cowradly, bloated, right-wing cowards. Those of us who have served understand what horror is.



Has Rdean served in combat?  For that matter, have you served in combat?


----------



## daveman

Yukon. said:


> Conservatives hate America because America is controlled by a Negro President.


Please don't be stupid, unless, as I suspect, you simply can't help it.


----------



## daveman

Yukon. said:


> bigrebnc1775 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yukon. said:
> 
> 
> 
> Rdean,
> 
> Dont waste your time explaining the horrors of war to cowradly, bloated, right-wing cowards. Those of us who have served understand what horror is.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm one of those who have served and I call BULLSHIT on your reply and rdeans reply.
> Care to tell me what your MOS or AFSC was? Oh and Jehovah's Witnesses don't join the military they are anti government which I do believe that you are a Jehovah's Witnesses. I remember your 144,000 comment.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You rotting, cowardly, vile, disgusting, lying, waste of human flesh. How dare you challenge my service or my patriotism.
Click to expand...

Oh, that's right...only leftists can challenge anyone's service or patriotism.


----------



## daveman

NYcarbineer said:


> daveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> Electric vehicles don't eliminate pollution; they merely relocate it.  And given the toxic materials used to make the batteries, they're more hazardous to the environment than fuel-burning engines.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What's the problem with the batteries?
Click to expand...

Depends on the battery technology.  Some, like the lead-acid batteries in the el cheapo electric vehicle linked to earlier, are highly toxic.  Others, not so much.  

The lithium-ion batteries used in the Volt, while not classified as toxic, are more expensive to recycle than the materials recovered are worth.  It's cheaper to toss 'em in a landfill.


----------



## rdean

daveman said:


> Yukon. said:
> 
> 
> 
> Rdean,
> 
> Dont waste your time explaining the horrors of war to cowradly, bloated, right-wing cowards. Those of us who have served understand what horror is.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Has Rdean served in combat?  For that matter, have you served in combat?
Click to expand...


I have not served in combat and I'm fortunate to say that.

I served in the 3rd Battalion, 16th Field Artillery, 8th Infantry Division from 1975 to 1979 in Baumholder, Germany.  I started off as an 82 Charlie, Forward Observer and was transferred into Military Intelligence where I worked for the last two years I served.

I'm glad I didn't see any combat.  Most of the officers and many of the enlisted I worked with daily had served in Vietnam.  For the few that did talk about the experience, I consider myself lucky that I didn't have to go through that.

And this is why I'm a strong supporter of the military and the need to compensate our military.  

No one can tell me the Republicans support our military.  Congressional votes are available for anyone who has the inclination to go look.  Find out how Republicans have voted the last 10 years in support of our troops and they say, with a straight face, they support our troops.  You can't, not with a straight face, it's not possible.

Spitting on Veterans

Unbelievably, the Bush administration opposesand has even threatened to vetoan updated GI Bill for Iraq war veterans to give those who risk their lives in Bushs war the same full college benefits the original GI Bill provided for veterans of World War II and Vietnam. 

Even harder to believe, Sen. John McCain, the presumed Republican presidential nominee, also opposes the new GI Bill. McCain was a prisoner of war during Vietnam. Unlike Bush and Cheney, McCain actually knows the overwhelming sacrifices made by American soldiers sent into war by politicians. 

We cant really explain McCains opposition. We can only report the way he tries to explain it. McCain says he opposes full college benefits for soldiers who serve only one enlistment because too many of them might leave the military to attend college. In the course of that one enlistment, a soldier could be sent into active combat in Iraq or Afghanistan as often as three times


----------



## CrusaderFrank

Jesus Christ in Heaven Who the fuck put Rdean in Military Intelligence!?

Do you see how understated McCarthy was that we were overrun with Marxists in our government?

Military Intelligence.  Good Fucking Grief!  What next TruthMatters was Miss Congeniality?


----------



## rdean

CrusaderFrank said:


> Jesus Christ in Heaven Who the fuck put Rdean in Military Intelligence!?
> 
> Do you see how understated McCarthy was that we were overrun with Marxists in our government?
> 
> Military Intelligence.  Good Fucking Grief!  What next TruthMatters was Miss Congeniality?



Are you calling me a Marxist? 

The only think worse than a Marxist is a Republican.  At least Marxists love their country enough to help their middle class, not shit on them like Republicans do in this country.....apologize to any foreign companies lately?


----------



## bigrebnc1775

Yukon. said:


> bigrebnc1775 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yukon. said:
> 
> 
> 
> Rdean,
> 
> Dont waste your time explaining the horrors of war to cowradly, bloated, right-wing cowards. Those of us who have served understand what horror is.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm one of those who have served and I call BULLSHIT on your reply and rdeans reply.
> Care to tell me what your MOS or AFSC was? Oh and Jehovah's Witnesses don't join the military they are anti government which I do believe that you are a Jehovah's Witnesses. I remember your 144,000 comment.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You rotting, cowardly, vile, disgusting, lying, waste of human flesh. How dare you challenge my service or my patriotism.
Click to expand...




So my question was a challenge? I guess it would be a challenge to you if you do not know what a MOS or AFSC was. And yes I'm still waiting. Jehovah's Witnesses are anti military and anti government. your 144,000 reply gave you away.


----------



## bigrebnc1775

rdean said:


> CrusaderFrank said:
> 
> 
> 
> Jesus Christ in Heaven Who the fuck put Rdean in Military Intelligence!?
> 
> Do you see how understated McCarthy was that we were overrun with Marxists in our government?
> 
> Military Intelligence.  Good Fucking Grief!  What next TruthMatters was Miss Congeniality?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Are you calling me a Marxist?
> 
> The only think worse than a Marxist is a Republican.  At least Marxists love their country enough to help their middle class, not shit on them like Republicans do in this country.....apologize to any foreign companies lately?
Click to expand...



Saul Alinsky Alert


----------



## bigrebnc1775

rdean said:


> daveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yukon. said:
> 
> 
> 
> Rdean,
> 
> Dont waste your time explaining the horrors of war to cowradly, bloated, right-wing cowards. Those of us who have served understand what horror is.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Has Rdean served in combat?  For that matter, have you served in combat?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I have not served in combat and I'm fortunate to say that.
> 
> I served in the 3rd Battalion, 16th Field Artillery, 8th Infantry Division from 1975 to 1979 in Baumholder, Germany.  I started off as an 82 Charlie, Forward Observer and was transferred into Military Intelligence where I worked for the last two years I served.
> 
> I'm glad I didn't see any combat.  Most of the officers and many of the enlisted I worked with daily had served in Vietnam.  For the few that did talk about the experience, I consider myself lucky that I didn't have to go through that.
> 
> And this is why I'm a strong supporter of the military and the need to compensate our military.
> 
> No one can tell me the Republicans support our military.  Congressional votes are available for anyone who has the inclination to go look.  Find out how Republicans have voted the last 10 years in support of our troops and they say, with a straight face, they support our troops.  You can't, not with a straight face, it's not possible.
> 
> Spitting on Veterans
> 
> Unbelievably, the Bush administration opposesand has even threatened to vetoan updated GI Bill for Iraq war veterans to give those who risk their lives in Bushs war the same full college benefits the original GI Bill provided for veterans of World War II and Vietnam.
> 
> Even harder to believe, Sen. John McCain, the presumed Republican presidential nominee, also opposes the new GI Bill. McCain was a prisoner of war during Vietnam. Unlike Bush and Cheney, McCain actually knows the overwhelming sacrifices made by American soldiers sent into war by politicians.
> 
> We cant really explain McCains opposition. We can only report the way he tries to explain it. McCain says he opposes full college benefits for soldiers who serve only one enlistment because too many of them might leave the military to attend college. In the course of that one enlistment, a soldier could be sent into active combat in Iraq or Afghanistan as often as three times
Click to expand...


----------



## daveman

rdean said:


> daveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yukon. said:
> 
> 
> 
> Rdean,
> 
> Dont waste your time explaining the horrors of war to cowradly, bloated, right-wing cowards. Those of us who have served understand what horror is.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Has Rdean served in combat?  For that matter, have you served in combat?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I have not served in combat and I'm fortunate to say that.
> 
> I served in the 3rd Battalion, 16th Field Artillery, 8th Infantry Division from 1975 to 1979 in Baumholder, Germany.  I started off as an 82 Charlie, Forward Observer and was transferred into Military Intelligence where I worked for the last two years I served.
> 
> I'm glad I didn't see any combat.  Most of the officers and many of the enlisted I worked with daily had served in Vietnam.  For the few that did talk about the experience, I consider myself lucky that I didn't have to go through that.
> 
> And this is why I'm a strong supporter of the military and the need to compensate our military.
Click to expand...

Thank you for your service!  *tips hat*


----------



## rdean

bigrebnc1775 said:


> rdean said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> daveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> Has Rdean served in combat?  For that matter, have you served in combat?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I have not served in combat and I'm fortunate to say that.
> 
> I served in the 3rd Battalion, 16th Field Artillery, 8th Infantry Division from 1975 to 1979 in Baumholder, Germany.  I started off as an 82 Charlie, Forward Observer and was transferred into Military Intelligence where I worked for the last two years I served.
> 
> I'm glad I didn't see any combat.  Most of the officers and many of the enlisted I worked with daily had served in Vietnam.  For the few that did talk about the experience, I consider myself lucky that I didn't have to go through that.
> 
> And this is why I'm a strong supporter of the military and the need to compensate our military.
> 
> No one can tell me the Republicans support our military.  Congressional votes are available for anyone who has the inclination to go look.  Find out how Republicans have voted the last 10 years in support of our troops and they say, with a straight face, they support our troops.  You can't, not with a straight face, it's not possible.
> 
> Spitting on Veterans
> 
> Unbelievably, the Bush administration opposesand has even threatened to vetoan updated GI Bill for Iraq war veterans to give those who risk their lives in Bushs war the same full college benefits the original GI Bill provided for veterans of World War II and Vietnam.
> 
> Even harder to believe, Sen. John McCain, the presumed Republican presidential nominee, also opposes the new GI Bill. McCain was a prisoner of war during Vietnam. Unlike Bush and Cheney, McCain actually knows the overwhelming sacrifices made by American soldiers sent into war by politicians.
> 
> We cant really explain McCains opposition. We can only report the way he tries to explain it. McCain says he opposes full college benefits for soldiers who serve only one enlistment because too many of them might leave the military to attend college. In the course of that one enlistment, a soldier could be sent into active combat in Iraq or Afghanistan as often as three times
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


Are you suggesting that wasn't McCain's position?  There are many search engines to choose from.  It's easy to find out the truth.


----------



## logical4u

midcan5 said:


> Why do conservatives hate America?  There were no negative threads when Toyota or Nissan came out with electric?  The dislike conservatives show toward America's work force, technological accomplishments, and government is bewildering. They wave flags as but criticize the place they live in and off.  Reagan's firing of America workers is the model for today. How odd.
> 
> 
> Join me, please.
> 
> I was riding home today after a middle distance bicycle ride, tired and a bit out of shape when I started counting cars, America - foreign, American - foreign. It occurred to me if only a small percentage of these people, the people who can afford more than a used clunker, bought American there would be no problems in one of our largest industries today. And lots of people would have a job and lots of businesses would be OK. May even help those incompetent bankers.
> 
> So I started giving thumbs up for American and thumbs down for foreign. Hard to distinguish which foreign car is made here, but no need I am a bit of a hard core American when it comes to cars. My '55' Chevy was my first love.
> 
> I'm sure the people thought me spastic, as my left hand thumb pointed up, then down, then up as cars drove by. Did anyone figure it out I wondered. Who is this nut! So if the whiners who lost the election can out of the blue, protest taxes, can we not protest something that has been going on for years due to cheaper prices, support structures, and no pensions, but still is having an insidious affect on our industrial base?
> 
> So if you own foreign go to you nearest mirror and give yourself a thumbs down and if you own American and thus support all of us and America, a thumbs up is due and thank you. Take to the streets and express yourself. The bankers thank you too.
> 
> Oh, and my bicycle is made in America too.



Conservatives do not hate America.  They do not want a "nanny" state: the government telling/ordering (with the threat of fines or jail time) how to live their lives.  In short, conservatives believe in: life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness (notice, there is nothing there about making anyone else happy, or miserable, for that matter).  Why do libs want a "nanny" state?

I tried buying "American"; I opened the hood and found a foreign made engine.  The windshield was made in Mexico, etc.  

Try good old competition, not protected status; it works to provide the best product at the best price.  If there isn't a market, the resources are quickly moved to a more appropriate product.  If there is not enough supply, the price will reflect the considered value.

Why do libs think other people need their opinion to decide how something fits into 'their personal' lives?


----------



## rdean

daveman said:


> rdean said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> daveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> Has Rdean served in combat?  For that matter, have you served in combat?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I have not served in combat and I'm fortunate to say that.
> 
> I served in the 3rd Battalion, 16th Field Artillery, 8th Infantry Division from 1975 to 1979 in Baumholder, Germany.  I started off as an 82 Charlie, Forward Observer and was transferred into Military Intelligence where I worked for the last two years I served.
> 
> I'm glad I didn't see any combat.  Most of the officers and many of the enlisted I worked with daily had served in Vietnam.  For the few that did talk about the experience, I consider myself lucky that I didn't have to go through that.
> 
> And this is why I'm a strong supporter of the military and the need to compensate our military.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Thank you for your service!  *tips hat*
Click to expand...


What I have to thank is what the service gave me.  

I've never had a problem with a "draft".  It wouldn't bother me if there were a "mandatory" two year draft for every citizen, no exceptions.  That doesn't necessarily mean "military duty", but "national service".  

I think that under such a system, you might see a huge change in this country.  It would be difficult for the wealthy to maintain their disdain for middle class working people if they had to spend time down in the trenches actually doing something productive.


----------



## logical4u

Yukon. said:


> bigrebnc1775 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yukon. said:
> 
> 
> 
> Rdean,
> 
> Dont waste your time explaining the horrors of war to cowradly, bloated, right-wing cowards. Those of us who have served understand what horror is.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm one of those who have served and I call BULLSHIT on your reply and rdeans reply.
> Care to tell me what your MOS or AFSC was? Oh and Jehovah's Witnesses don't join the military they are anti government which I do believe that you are a Jehovah's Witnesses. I remember your 144,000 comment.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You rotting, cowardly, vile, disgusting, lying, waste of human flesh. How dare you challenge my service or my patriotism.
Click to expand...


NO CLASS (just like Obama)


----------



## rdean

logical4u said:


> midcan5 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Why do conservatives hate America?  There were no negative threads when Toyota or Nissan came out with electric?  The dislike conservatives show toward America's work force, technological accomplishments, and government is bewildering. They wave flags as but criticize the place they live in and off.  Reagan's firing of America workers is the model for today. How odd.
> 
> 
> Join me, please.
> 
> I was riding home today after a middle distance bicycle ride, tired and a bit out of shape when I started counting cars, America - foreign, American - foreign. It occurred to me if only a small percentage of these people, the people who can afford more than a used clunker, bought American there would be no problems in one of our largest industries today. And lots of people would have a job and lots of businesses would be OK. May even help those incompetent bankers.
> 
> So I started giving thumbs up for American and thumbs down for foreign. Hard to distinguish which foreign car is made here, but no need I am a bit of a hard core American when it comes to cars. My '55' Chevy was my first love.
> 
> I'm sure the people thought me spastic, as my left hand thumb pointed up, then down, then up as cars drove by. Did anyone figure it out I wondered. Who is this nut! So if the whiners who lost the election can out of the blue, protest taxes, can we not protest something that has been going on for years due to cheaper prices, support structures, and no pensions, but still is having an insidious affect on our industrial base?
> 
> So if you own foreign go to you nearest mirror and give yourself a thumbs down and if you own American and thus support all of us and America, a thumbs up is due and thank you. Take to the streets and express yourself. The bankers thank you too.
> 
> Oh, and my bicycle is made in America too.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Conservatives do not hate America.  They do not want a "nanny" state: the government telling/ordering (with the threat of fines or jail time) how to live their lives.  In short, conservatives believe in: life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness (notice, there is nothing there about making anyone else happy, or miserable, for that matter).  Why do libs want a "nanny" state?
> 
> I tried buying "American"; I opened the hood and found a foreign made engine.  The windshield was made in Mexico, etc.
> 
> Try good old competition, not protected status; it works to provide the best product at the best price.  If there isn't a market, the resources are quickly moved to a more appropriate product.  If there is not enough supply, the price will reflect the considered value.
> 
> Why do libs think other people need their opinion to decide how something fits into 'their personal' lives?
Click to expand...


You're so full of shit you can't see straight.

First, go tell it to the gays.  I'm sure they will clue you in on how conservatives have supported leaving them alone.

Second, how have you been threatened with jail time?

Here is a typical right wing response on the government.  Could it possibly be any more pathetic?

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yTwpBLzxe4U]YouTube - Craig T. Nelson on Government Aid[/ame]

You have to get past the Republican talking points and learn to think for yourself.  Our government is NOT a foreign government.  It's made up of our neighbors who we elect into office.


----------



## DiveCon

rdean said:


> You have to get past the Republican talking points and learn to think for yourself.  Our government is NOT a foreign government.  It's made up of our neighbors who we elect into office.


WOW, the irony
change republican to democrat and it YOU


----------



## daveman

rdean said:


> daveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rdean said:
> 
> 
> 
> I have not served in combat and I'm fortunate to say that.
> 
> I served in the 3rd Battalion, 16th Field Artillery, 8th Infantry Division from 1975 to 1979 in Baumholder, Germany.  I started off as an 82 Charlie, Forward Observer and was transferred into Military Intelligence where I worked for the last two years I served.
> 
> I'm glad I didn't see any combat.  Most of the officers and many of the enlisted I worked with daily had served in Vietnam.  For the few that did talk about the experience, I consider myself lucky that I didn't have to go through that.
> 
> And this is why I'm a strong supporter of the military and the need to compensate our military.
> 
> 
> 
> Thank you for your service!  *tips hat*
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> What I have to thank is what the service gave me.
> 
> I've never had a problem with a "draft".  It wouldn't bother me if there were a "mandatory" two year draft for every citizen, no exceptions.  That doesn't necessarily mean "military duty", but "national service".
> 
> I think that under such a system, you might see a huge change in this country.  It would be difficult for the wealthy to maintain their disdain for middle class working people if they had to spend time down in the trenches actually doing something productive.
Click to expand...

Well, you had me up until the class warfare nonsense at the end.


----------



## rdean

logical4u said:


> midcan5 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Why do conservatives hate America?  There were no negative threads when Toyota or Nissan came out with electric?  The dislike conservatives show toward America's work force, technological accomplishments, and government is bewildering. They wave flags as but criticize the place they live in and off.  Reagan's firing of America workers is the model for today. How odd.
> 
> 
> Join me, please.
> 
> I was riding home today after a middle distance bicycle ride, tired and a bit out of shape when I started counting cars, America - foreign, American - foreign. It occurred to me if only a small percentage of these people, the people who can afford more than a used clunker, bought American there would be no problems in one of our largest industries today. And lots of people would have a job and lots of businesses would be OK. May even help those incompetent bankers.
> 
> So I started giving thumbs up for American and thumbs down for foreign. Hard to distinguish which foreign car is made here, but no need I am a bit of a hard core American when it comes to cars. My '55' Chevy was my first love.
> 
> I'm sure the people thought me spastic, as my left hand thumb pointed up, then down, then up as cars drove by. Did anyone figure it out I wondered. Who is this nut! So if the whiners who lost the election can out of the blue, protest taxes, can we not protest something that has been going on for years due to cheaper prices, support structures, and no pensions, but still is having an insidious affect on our industrial base?
> 
> So if you own foreign go to you nearest mirror and give yourself a thumbs down and if you own American and thus support all of us and America, a thumbs up is due and thank you. Take to the streets and express yourself. The bankers thank you too.
> 
> Oh, and my bicycle is made in America too.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Conservatives do not hate America.  They do not want a "nanny" state: the government telling/ordering (with the threat of fines or jail time) how to live their lives.  In short, conservatives believe in: life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness (notice, there is nothing there about making anyone else happy, or miserable, for that matter).  Why do libs want a "nanny" state?
> 
> I tried buying "American"; I opened the hood and found a foreign made engine.  The windshield was made in Mexico, etc.
> 
> Try good old competition, not protected status; it works to provide the best product at the best price.  If there isn't a market, the resources are quickly moved to a more appropriate product.  If there is not enough supply, the price will reflect the considered value.
> 
> Why do libs think other people need their opinion to decide how something fits into 'their personal' lives?
Click to expand...


GOP Senate nominee Carly Fiorina, while a CEO, sent 18,000 jobs to China.  They recently had their salaries doubled to 73 dollars a week.  Is this what you call "fair and competitive"?  Just asking.  Do you think Americans should be making 72 dollars a week to compete?


----------



## DiveCon

rdean said:


> logical4u said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> midcan5 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Why do conservatives hate America?  There were no negative threads when Toyota or Nissan came out with electric?  The dislike conservatives show toward America's work force, technological accomplishments, and government is bewildering. They wave flags as but criticize the place they live in and off.  Reagan's firing of America workers is the model for today. How odd.
> 
> 
> Join me, please.
> 
> I was riding home today after a middle distance bicycle ride, tired and a bit out of shape when I started counting cars, America - foreign, American - foreign. It occurred to me if only a small percentage of these people, the people who can afford more than a used clunker, bought American there would be no problems in one of our largest industries today. And lots of people would have a job and lots of businesses would be OK. May even help those incompetent bankers.
> 
> So I started giving thumbs up for American and thumbs down for foreign. Hard to distinguish which foreign car is made here, but no need I am a bit of a hard core American when it comes to cars. My '55' Chevy was my first love.
> 
> I'm sure the people thought me spastic, as my left hand thumb pointed up, then down, then up as cars drove by. Did anyone figure it out I wondered. Who is this nut! So if the whiners who lost the election can out of the blue, protest taxes, can we not protest something that has been going on for years due to cheaper prices, support structures, and no pensions, but still is having an insidious affect on our industrial base?
> 
> So if you own foreign go to you nearest mirror and give yourself a thumbs down and if you own American and thus support all of us and America, a thumbs up is due and thank you. Take to the streets and express yourself. The bankers thank you too.
> 
> Oh, and my bicycle is made in America too.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Conservatives do not hate America.  They do not want a "nanny" state: the government telling/ordering (with the threat of fines or jail time) how to live their lives.  In short, conservatives believe in: life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness (notice, there is nothing there about making anyone else happy, or miserable, for that matter).  Why do libs want a "nanny" state?
> 
> I tried buying "American"; I opened the hood and found a foreign made engine.  The windshield was made in Mexico, etc.
> 
> Try good old competition, not protected status; it works to provide the best product at the best price.  If there isn't a market, the resources are quickly moved to a more appropriate product.  If there is not enough supply, the price will reflect the considered value.
> 
> Why do libs think other people need their opinion to decide how something fits into 'their personal' lives?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> GOP Senate nominee Carly Fiorina, while a CEO, sent 18,000 jobs to China.  They recently had their salaries doubled to 73 dollars a week.  Is this what you call "fair and competitive"?  Just asking.  Do you think Americans should be making 72 dollars a week to compete?
Click to expand...

and you can choose not to buy the products she sells


----------



## clevergirl

daveman said:


> Truthmatters said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> daveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> Which science is that?  The science that says the electricity in your wall socket that you plug your electric car into doesn't magically appear there, that it has to be generated somewhere else, with a 50/50 chance that it's derived from burning coal?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> At the momment that may be true but alternatives exsist and will continue to be developed.
> 
> In the future you willl be able to plug your car into a meter in every parking place instead of a parking meter.
> 
> Charge while you park at work and at home.
> 
> If every house had solar and wind capability things would be VERY different.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Someday.  Maybe.  Meanwhile, right now, here in the real world, if you plug in an electric car, there's a 71% chance it's being recharged by burning something, and another 20% chance it's being recharged by nuclear power.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There simply is no renewable source as yet that will scale up sufficiently to replace fossil fuels or nuclear power.   I'm not saying we shouldn't explore alternatives, but let's not kid ourselves that electric vehicles do anything besides relocate the problem, mmmkay?
Click to expand...


I drive a Prius. I bought it used at a great price. I get about 450 miles to a tank (maybe 500, but I never let it go there) at a price of about 22 bucks to fill up. I can't help but LOVE my savings.

That said, I also know that the impact to the environment to both make the batteries and dispose of them when they die, is huge. I agree with your first assumption about nuclear powered grid systems that could someday efficiently power everything, including transportation. This  is where our investment in technologies should be going.


----------



## bigrebnc1775

rdean said:


> logical4u said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> midcan5 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Why do conservatives hate America?  There were no negative threads when Toyota or Nissan came out with electric?  The dislike conservatives show toward America's work force, technological accomplishments, and government is bewildering. They wave flags as but criticize the place they live in and off.  Reagan's firing of America workers is the model for today. How odd.
> 
> 
> Join me, please.
> 
> I was riding home today after a middle distance bicycle ride, tired and a bit out of shape when I started counting cars, America - foreign, American - foreign. It occurred to me if only a small percentage of these people, the people who can afford more than a used clunker, bought American there would be no problems in one of our largest industries today. And lots of people would have a job and lots of businesses would be OK. May even help those incompetent bankers.
> 
> So I started giving thumbs up for American and thumbs down for foreign. Hard to distinguish which foreign car is made here, but no need I am a bit of a hard core American when it comes to cars. My '55' Chevy was my first love.
> 
> I'm sure the people thought me spastic, as my left hand thumb pointed up, then down, then up as cars drove by. Did anyone figure it out I wondered. Who is this nut! So if the whiners who lost the election can out of the blue, protest taxes, can we not protest something that has been going on for years due to cheaper prices, support structures, and no pensions, but still is having an insidious affect on our industrial base?
> 
> So if you own foreign go to you nearest mirror and give yourself a thumbs down and if you own American and thus support all of us and America, a thumbs up is due and thank you. Take to the streets and express yourself. The bankers thank you too.
> 
> Oh, and my bicycle is made in America too.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Conservatives do not hate America.  They do not want a "nanny" state: the government telling/ordering (with the threat of fines or jail time) how to live their lives.  In short, conservatives believe in: life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness (notice, there is nothing there about making anyone else happy, or miserable, for that matter).  Why do libs want a "nanny" state?
> 
> I tried buying "American"; I opened the hood and found a foreign made engine.  The windshield was made in Mexico, etc.
> 
> Try good old competition, not protected status; it works to provide the best product at the best price.  If there isn't a market, the resources are quickly moved to a more appropriate product.  If there is not enough supply, the price will reflect the considered value.
> 
> Why do libs think other people need their opinion to decide how something fits into 'their personal' lives?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You're so full of shit you can't see straight.
> 
> First, go tell it to the gays.  I'm sure they will clue you in on how conservatives have supported leaving them alone.
> 
> Second, how have you been threatened with jail time?
> 
> Here is a typical right wing response on the government.  Could it possibly be any more pathetic?
> 
> [ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yTwpBLzxe4U]YouTube - Craig T. Nelson on Government Aid[/ame]
> 
> You have to get past the Republican talking points and learn to think for yourself.  Our government is NOT a foreign government.  It's made up of our neighbors who we elect into office.
Click to expand...

If you feel the need to bash someone aim for the correct group. That is if you love this country. But since you support anything democrats you must truely hate America,


----------



## NYcarbineer

daveman said:


> NYcarbineer said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> daveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> Electric vehicles don't eliminate pollution; they merely relocate it.  And given the toxic materials used to make the batteries, they're more hazardous to the environment than fuel-burning engines.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What's the problem with the batteries?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Depends on the battery technology.  Some, like the lead-acid batteries in the el cheapo electric vehicle linked to earlier, are highly toxic.  Others, not so much.
> 
> The lithium-ion batteries used in the Volt, while not classified as toxic, are more expensive to recycle than the materials recovered are worth.  It's cheaper to toss 'em in a landfill.
Click to expand...


And how does that compare to the waste problem of nuclear?


----------



## clevergirl

NYcarbineer said:


> daveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> NYcarbineer said:
> 
> 
> 
> What's the problem with the batteries?
> 
> 
> 
> Depends on the battery technology.  Some, like the lead-acid batteries in the el cheapo electric vehicle linked to earlier, are highly toxic.  Others, not so much.
> 
> The lithium-ion batteries used in the Volt, while not classified as toxic, are more expensive to recycle than the materials recovered are worth.  It's cheaper to toss 'em in a landfill.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> And how does that compare to the waste problem of nuclear?
Click to expand...


<snip> "As it happens, theres an ideal test case with which to evaluate that enticing proposition: France, which never backed away from nuclear energy and which has long relied on reprocessing as the linchpin of its power reactor fuel system.

The French experience clearly does show that reprocessing need not be the dangerous mess that other countries, including the United States, have made of it [see photo, Blue Glow of Success, above]. The U.S. military used reprocessing for several decades to separate plutonium from spent fuels, providing fissionable material for bombs. The result was widespread contamination--which has been in some cases irremediable--in the central Washington desert and the South Carolina coastal plain.

France, in contrast, now reprocesses well over 1000 metric tons of spent fuel every year without incident at the La Hague chemical complex, at the head of Normandys wind-blasted Cotentin peninsula. La Hague receives all the spent fuel rods from Frances 59 reactors. The sprawling facility, operated by the state-controlled nuclear giant Areva, has racked up a good, if not unblemished, environmental record." <snip>


----------



## Charles_Main

JBeukema said:


> Charles_Main said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> American Horse said:
> 
> 
> 
> The damage to the environment with the silt and heavy metals clean-up after make hydro more costly than coal by some accounts
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> New technology means we can produce Hydro Power with out Dams. Smaller free standing Turbines in Rivers, and in Areas to catch tidal forces can do the trick. You no longer need to damn up a river to use Hydro Electric power. Small Free standing turbines are already being put in NYC's East river. They can even be in a cage so no fish get into them.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Can you source those claims, please?
Click to expand...


OMG you people are lazy. Source = discovery channel. You look it up.

Was build it bigger or one of those types of shows. They were there filming work being done on the underwater sites in the East river where they will be putting the Turbines.

The same show talked about a building they are building in the UAE I believe it was. That has horizontally fixed Air driven Turbines in a space between each floor. The Building is expected to be Nearly self sustaining electrically.


----------



## Gunny

Truthmatters said:


> I can tell he will never solve the puzzle.



Dumbass.  As an electrician I can tell you electric cars are not viable.  Guess how much fossil fuel it takes to create electricity?

Or do you have your own private lightning bolt hitting you in the ass daily?


----------



## daveman

clevergirl said:


> I drive a Prius. I bought it used at a great price. I get about 450 miles to a tank (maybe 500, but I never let it go there) at a price of about 22 bucks to fill up. I can't help but LOVE my savings.


Don't blame you a bit.  Sounds great.  


clevergirl said:


> That said, I also know that the impact to the environment to both make the batteries and dispose of them when they die, is huge. I agree with your first assumption about nuclear powered grid systems that could someday efficiently power everything, including transportation. This  is where our investment in technologies should be going.


I agree.  So do these guys.


----------



## DiveCon

daveman said:


> clevergirl said:
> 
> 
> 
> I drive a Prius. I bought it used at a great price. I get about 450 miles to a tank (maybe 500, but I never let it go there) at a price of about 22 bucks to fill up. I can't help but LOVE my savings.
> 
> 
> 
> Don't blame you a bit.  Sounds great.
> 
> 
> clevergirl said:
> 
> 
> 
> That said, I also know that the impact to the environment to both make the batteries and dispose of them when they die, is huge. I agree with your first assumption about nuclear powered grid systems that could someday efficiently power everything, including transportation. This  is where our investment in technologies should be going.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I agree.  So do these guys.
Click to expand...

there you go, supporting science


----------



## daveman

NYcarbineer said:


> daveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> NYcarbineer said:
> 
> 
> 
> What's the problem with the batteries?
> 
> 
> 
> Depends on the battery technology.  Some, like the lead-acid batteries in the el cheapo electric vehicle linked to earlier, are highly toxic.  Others, not so much.
> 
> The lithium-ion batteries used in the Volt, while not classified as toxic, are more expensive to recycle than the materials recovered are worth.  It's cheaper to toss 'em in a landfill.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> And how does that compare to the waste problem of nuclear?
Click to expand...

Nuclear poses vastly greater disposal problems, of course.

So, where do you think power for electric cars comes from?


----------



## Kat

Gunny said:


> Truthmatters said:
> 
> 
> 
> I can tell he will never solve the puzzle.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dumbass.  As an electrician I can tell you electric cars are not viable.  Guess how much fossil fuel it takes to create electricity?
> 
> Or do you have your own private lightning bolt hitting you in the ass daily?
Click to expand...










I needed a good laugh!


----------



## daveman

DiveCon said:


> daveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> clevergirl said:
> 
> 
> 
> I drive a Prius. I bought it used at a great price. I get about 450 miles to a tank (maybe 500, but I never let it go there) at a price of about 22 bucks to fill up. I can't help but LOVE my savings.
> 
> 
> 
> Don't blame you a bit.  Sounds great.
> 
> 
> clevergirl said:
> 
> 
> 
> That said, I also know that the impact to the environment to both make the batteries and dispose of them when they die, is huge. I agree with your first assumption about nuclear powered grid systems that could someday efficiently power everything, including transportation. This  is where our investment in technologies should be going.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I agree.  So do these guys.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> there you go, supporting science
Click to expand...

  I like to go against stereotype.


----------



## DiveCon

daveman said:


> DiveCon said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> daveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> Don't blame you a bit.  Sounds great.
> 
> I agree.  So do these guys.
> 
> 
> 
> there you go, supporting science
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I like to go against stereotype.
Click to expand...

rdean and TM will be here shortly to say that you dont

LOL


----------



## clevergirl

daveman said:


> clevergirl said:
> 
> 
> 
> I drive a Prius. I bought it used at a great price. I get about 450 miles to a tank (maybe 500, but I never let it go there) at a price of about 22 bucks to fill up. I can't help but LOVE my savings.
> 
> 
> 
> Don't blame you a bit.  Sounds great.
> 
> 
> clevergirl said:
> 
> 
> 
> That said, I also know that the impact to the environment to both make the batteries and dispose of them when they die, is huge. I agree with your first assumption about nuclear powered grid systems that could someday efficiently power everything, including transportation. This  is where our investment in technologies should be going.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I agree.  So do these guys.
Click to expand...


Just for shits and giggles I have stuck two bumper stickers in the rear window...Support NRA and Vote GOP  

I am a Prius driving Republican


----------



## daveman

DiveCon said:


> daveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> DiveCon said:
> 
> 
> 
> there you go, supporting science
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I like to go against stereotype.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> rdean and TM will be here shortly to say that you dont
> 
> LOL
Click to expand...

In case of a disagreement between a leftist's preconceived notions and reality, reality is wrong.


----------



## DiveCon

clevergirl said:


> daveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> clevergirl said:
> 
> 
> 
> I drive a Prius. I bought it used at a great price. I get about 450 miles to a tank (maybe 500, but I never let it go there) at a price of about 22 bucks to fill up. I can't help but LOVE my savings.
> 
> 
> 
> Don't blame you a bit.  Sounds great.
> 
> 
> clevergirl said:
> 
> 
> 
> That said, I also know that the impact to the environment to both make the batteries and dispose of them when they die, is huge. I agree with your first assumption about nuclear powered grid systems that could someday efficiently power everything, including transportation. This  is where our investment in technologies should be going.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I agree.  So do these guys.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Just for shits and giggles I have stuck two bumper stickers in the rear window...Support NRA and Vote GOP
> 
> I am a Prius driving Republican
Click to expand...

 that should make some liberal heads explode


----------



## JBeukema

daveman said:


> JBeukema said:
> 
> 
> 
> The Roadster was brought up only to counter the claims that these cars are necessarily inefficient and lacking in range. The Roadtser proves that  that electric can be feasible for most applications* and meet IC in speed and general performance, while meeting most peoples' travel needs.
> 
> 
> 
> *I've not heard of any electric motor than can possibly be used to replace big Diesel engines in semis, dump trucks, and the like
> 
> 
> 
> Oh, you can get a thousand-HP electric motor -- look no further than the nearest railroad.  That's not the limitation.  The limitation is the battery.  A motor that big has to have an engine-driven alternator to power it.
Click to expand...


Wait. They have electric freight trains now? Or am I misunderstanding you?

Wouldn't using an engine to generate power for the motor defeat the entire purpose? Sure the conversion form potential to mechanical to electric to mechanical energy would be less efficient than simply hooking the engine up to the drive train?


Okay, so it might be _possible _[so is crossing the Atlantic by tying enough balloons to a laundry basket and catching the trade winds], but it strikes me as far outside the realm of feasibility.


----------



## daveman

clevergirl said:


> daveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> clevergirl said:
> 
> 
> 
> I drive a Prius. I bought it used at a great price. I get about 450 miles to a tank (maybe 500, but I never let it go there) at a price of about 22 bucks to fill up. I can't help but LOVE my savings.
> 
> 
> 
> Don't blame you a bit.  Sounds great.
> 
> 
> clevergirl said:
> 
> 
> 
> That said, I also know that the impact to the environment to both make the batteries and dispose of them when they die, is huge. I agree with your first assumption about nuclear powered grid systems that could someday efficiently power everything, including transportation. This  is where our investment in technologies should be going.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I agree.  So do these guys.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Just for shits and giggles I have stuck two bumper stickers in the rear window...Support NRA and Vote GOP
> 
> I am a Prius driving Republican
Click to expand...


----------



## JBeukema

daveman said:


> JBeukema said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> daveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, to the efficiency; no to the "More power used does not necessarily mean more fuel being burned" thing.
> 
> Generators is what I do for the Air Force.  So I know what I'm talking about when I disagree with you.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You just agreed with him
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> "... no to the 'More power used does not necessarily mean more fuel being burned' thing."  That statement is incorrect.
Click to expand...



It depends. If not all the power generated is being  used, it holds true so long as the total power used does not surpass that generated and successfully transferred to the point o use


----------



## JBeukema

daveman said:


> Yukon. said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> bigrebnc1775 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm one of those who have served and I call BULLSHIT on your reply and rdeans reply.
> Care to tell me what your MOS or AFSC was? Oh and Jehovah's Witnesses don't join the military they are anti government which I do believe that you are a Jehovah's Witnesses. I remember your 144,000 comment.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You rotting, cowardly, vile, disgusting, lying, waste of human flesh. How dare you challenge my service or my patriotism.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Oh, that's right...only leftists can challenge anyone's service or patriotism.
Click to expand...


Please do not confuse Yukon with a leftist.

We have nothing to do with that sack of shit.


----------



## DiveCon

JBeukema said:


> daveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JBeukema said:
> 
> 
> 
> The Roadster was brought up only to counter the claims that these cars are necessarily inefficient and lacking in range. The Roadtser proves that  that electric can be feasible for most applications* and meet IC in speed and general performance, while meeting most peoples' travel needs.
> 
> 
> 
> *I've not heard of any electric motor than can possibly be used to replace big Diesel engines in semis, dump trucks, and the like
> 
> 
> 
> Oh, you can get a thousand-HP electric motor -- look no further than the nearest railroad.  That's not the limitation.  The limitation is the battery.  A motor that big has to have an engine-driven alternator to power it.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Wait. They have electric freight trains now? Or am I misunderstanding you?
> 
> Wouldn't using an engine to generate power for the motor defeat the entire purpose? Sure the conversion form potential to mechanical to electric to mechanical energy would be less efficient than simply hooking the engine up to the drive train?
> 
> 
> Okay, so it might be _possible _[so is crossing the Atlantic by tying enough balloons to a laundry basket and catching the trade winds], but it strikes me as far outside the realm of feasibility.
Click to expand...

yes, diesel-electric
been around for YEARS
diesel engine powers a turbine for electric motors

what they really should do is get some of the shuttle APU's and power them that way
would be far cleaner


----------



## JBeukema

rdean said:


> CrusaderFrank said:
> 
> 
> 
> Jesus Christ in Heaven Who the fuck put Rdean in Military Intelligence!?
> 
> Do you see how understated McCarthy was that we were overrun with Marxists in our government?
> 
> Military Intelligence.  Good Fucking Grief!  What next TruthMatters was Miss Congeniality?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Are you calling me a Marxist?
> 
> The only think worse than a Marxist is a Republican.  At least Marxists love their country enough to help their middle class, not shit on them like Republicans do in this country.....apologize to any foreign companies lately?
Click to expand...


Seeing as a fundamental aspect of Marxism is the eventual dissolution of the State and the end of age of the the nation-state, saying that Marxists love their nation is ludicrous.

Marxism is founded on class unity and basically views the existence of the nation as a means of bourgeois control by keeping the proletariat separated and antagonistic against itself.

But you're not the first to babble about Marxism while knowing nothing about it.

And the only thing worse than a Marxist is one who calls himself a Marxist yet advocates something wholly unlike what Marx truly proposed. This is what Marx was rejecting when he said 'if that is Marxism, I am no Marxist.'


----------



## JiggsCasey

daveman said:


> Liberals feeling good about themselves is all that matters.



Acually, cool guy, it's far more usually cons who are are convinced of "silver bullets" that require ever more fossil fuels to produce...   Every time I see a thread about "who killed the electric car," it's written by a con who wants to try and blame liberals for stifling progress.

I've been saying for 10 years that electric cars were never going to work. Never. So much for your theory.


----------



## daveman

JBeukema said:


> Wait. They have electric freight trains now? Or am I misunderstanding you?
> 
> Wouldn't using an engine to generate power for the motor defeat the entire purpose? Sure the conversion form potential to mechanical to electric to mechanical energy would be less efficient than simply hooking the engine up to the drive train?
> 
> 
> Okay, so it might be _possible _[so is crossing the Atlantic by tying enough balloons to a laundry basket and catching the trade winds], but it strikes me as far outside the realm of feasibility.


The problem with driving the locomotive's wheels from the engine mechanically is it's difficult to make a transmission that will handle that kind of torque.  

Instead, the system (called diesel-electric) is a diesel engine drives a generator, which in turn drives electric motors attached to each wheel pair's axle.  By varying both the engine speed and the voltage output of the generator, fantastic amounts of torque can be created.  Modern locomotives have enough pull that they can rip couplings off the cars behind them.  Also, the motors can act like brakes by disconnecting them electrically from the generator and shunting the power they generate when driven by the wheels to a resistive load bank, converting forward motion into heat and saving wear on the brakes.  

So, you get more power to the drive wheels electrically than you can mechanically.  Modern shipbuilders are doing the same thing.  It makes ship design and layout easier when you don't have to factor in long drive shafts from the engines to the screws...you can run cables anywhere.

This explains it better than I have:  HowStuffWorks "How Diesel Locomotives Work"


----------



## daveman

JBeukema said:


> daveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JBeukema said:
> 
> 
> 
> You just agreed with him
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "... no to the 'More power used does not necessarily mean more fuel being burned' thing."  That statement is incorrect.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> It depends. If not all the power generated is being  used, it holds true so long as the total power used does not surpass that generated and successfully transferred to the point o use
Click to expand...

If more power is generated than is used, where does it go?


----------



## daveman

JBeukema said:


> daveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yukon. said:
> 
> 
> 
> You rotting, cowardly, vile, disgusting, lying, waste of human flesh. How dare you challenge my service or my patriotism.
> 
> 
> 
> Oh, that's right...only leftists can challenge anyone's service or patriotism.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Please do not confuse Yukon with a leftist.
> 
> We have nothing to do with that sack of shit.
Click to expand...

I don't blame you for that.


----------



## JBeukema

Charles_Main said:


> JBeukema said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Charles_Main said:
> 
> 
> 
> New technology means we can produce Hydro Power with out Dams. Smaller free standing Turbines in Rivers, and in Areas to catch tidal forces can do the trick. You no longer need to damn up a river to use Hydro Electric power. Small Free standing turbines are already being put in NYC's East river. They can even be in a cage so no fish get into them.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Can you source those claims, please?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> OMG you people are lazy. Source = discovery channel. You look it up.
> 
> Was build it bigger or one of those types of shows. They were there filming work being done on the underwater sites in the East river where they will be putting the Turbines.
> 
> The same show talked about a building they are building in the UAE I believe it was. That has horizontally fixed Air driven Turbines in a space between each floor. The Building is expected to be Nearly self sustaining electrically.
Click to expand...



they're your claims


----------



## daveman

JiggsCasey said:


> daveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> Liberals feeling good about themselves is all that matters.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Acually, cool guy, it's far more usually cons who are are convinced of "silver bullets" that require ever more fossil fuels to produce...   Every time I see a thread about "who killed the electric car," it's written by a con who wants to try and blame liberals for stifling progress.
> 
> I've been saying for 10 years that electric cars were never going to work. Never. So much for your theory.
Click to expand...


Yeah, not really.  It's the left that's hoping for the Magic Energy that's non-polluting, renewable, and cheap, and wants to hamstring current energy sources before the Magic Energy is found.


----------



## JBeukema

DiveCon said:


> yes, diesel-electric
> been around for YEARS
> diesel engine powers a turbine for electric motors




wait.... turinging potential energy (diesel) to heat and what not into mechanical energy (driving the turbine) into electric energy into mechanical energy (powering the train)?

Wouldn't it be more efficient to hook the turbine up to the drive train or whatever it's called in a train? Aren't you losing energy by having the motor there?


----------



## clevergirl

DiveCon said:


> clevergirl said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> daveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> Don't blame you a bit.  Sounds great.
> 
> I agree.  So do these guys.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Just for shits and giggles I have stuck two bumper stickers in the rear window...Support NRA and Vote GOP
> 
> I am a Prius driving Republican
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> that should make some liberal heads explode
Click to expand...


I have not seen any exploding heads (I'll BOLO for that though) I have gotten numerous squinched faced double takes....


----------



## JBeukema

daveman said:


> JBeukema said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> daveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> "... no to the 'More power used does not necessarily mean more fuel being burned' thing."  That statement is incorrect.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It depends. If not all the power generated is being  used, it holds true so long as the total power used does not surpass that generated and successfully transferred to the point o use
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> If more power is generated than is used, where does it go?
Click to expand...


A lot of it is heat. Excess electricity might be stored temporarily, else it would have to be discharged somewhere along the way. Conservation of energy.


----------



## DiveCon

JBeukema said:


> DiveCon said:
> 
> 
> 
> yes, diesel-electric
> been around for YEARS
> diesel engine powers a turbine for electric motors
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> wait.... turinging potential energy (diesel) to heat and what not into mechanical energy (driving the turbine) into electric energy into mechanical energy (powering the train)?
> 
> Wouldn't it be more efficient to hook the turbine up to the drive train or whatever it's called in a train? Aren't you losing energy by having the motor there?
Click to expand...

maybe i used the wrong term, but the turbine i mean is direct drive from the diesel to generate electricity


----------



## saveliberty

Most train engines are diesel electric now right?


----------



## logical4u

rdean said:


> logical4u said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> midcan5 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Why do conservatives hate America?  There were no negative threads when Toyota or Nissan came out with electric?  The dislike conservatives show toward America's work force, technological accomplishments, and government is bewildering. They wave flags as but criticize the place they live in and off.  Reagan's firing of America workers is the model for today. How odd.
> 
> 
> Join me, please.
> 
> I was riding home today after a middle distance bicycle ride, tired and a bit out of shape when I started counting cars, America - foreign, American - foreign. It occurred to me if only a small percentage of these people, the people who can afford more than a used clunker, bought American there would be no problems in one of our largest industries today. And lots of people would have a job and lots of businesses would be OK. May even help those incompetent bankers.
> 
> So I started giving thumbs up for American and thumbs down for foreign. Hard to distinguish which foreign car is made here, but no need I am a bit of a hard core American when it comes to cars. My '55' Chevy was my first love.
> 
> I'm sure the people thought me spastic, as my left hand thumb pointed up, then down, then up as cars drove by. Did anyone figure it out I wondered. Who is this nut! So if the whiners who lost the election can out of the blue, protest taxes, can we not protest something that has been going on for years due to cheaper prices, support structures, and no pensions, but still is having an insidious affect on our industrial base?
> 
> So if you own foreign go to you nearest mirror and give yourself a thumbs down and if you own American and thus support all of us and America, a thumbs up is due and thank you. Take to the streets and express yourself. The bankers thank you too.
> 
> Oh, and my bicycle is made in America too.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Conservatives do not hate America.  They do not want a "nanny" state: the government telling/ordering (with the threat of fines or jail time) how to live their lives.  In short, conservatives believe in: life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness (notice, there is nothing there about making anyone else happy, or miserable, for that matter).  Why do libs want a "nanny" state?
> 
> I tried buying "American"; I opened the hood and found a foreign made engine.  The windshield was made in Mexico, etc.
> 
> Try good old competition, not protected status; it works to provide the best product at the best price.  If there isn't a market, the resources are quickly moved to a more appropriate product.  If there is not enough supply, the price will reflect the considered value.
> 
> Why do libs think other people need their opinion to decide how something fits into 'their personal' lives?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You're so full of shit you can't see straight.
> 
> First, go tell it to the gays.  I'm sure they will clue you in on how conservatives have supported leaving them alone.
> 
> Second, how have you been threatened with jail time?
> 
> Here is a typical right wing response on the government.  Could it possibly be any more pathetic?
> 
> [ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yTwpBLzxe4U]YouTube - Craig T. Nelson on Government Aid[/ame]
> 
> You have to get past the Republican talking points and learn to think for yourself.  Our government is NOT a foreign government.  It's made up of our neighbors who we elect into office.
Click to expand...


"Good fences make good neighbors"   unknown

Neighbors do best when they are polite to each other and give each other privacy.  Libs do neither.  Politicians would do better if they remembered that as well (including our southern border).

"The gays" are the ones that wanted to "indoctrinate" children into their lifestyle against the parents wishes.  Look at Montana... teaching (in public schools) 'sex-ed' that would be considered child pornography if we taught our own children those perverse things in our own homes.   "The gays" are the ones that wanted to get in people's faces, and then went crying to the 'government' to "force" their lifestyle on the rest of the citizens (neighbors, if you prefer).  

Don't start your tears... 'cause you are not right on this and you are not right on electric cars (they are not the ultimate answer), they can help a limited portion of car owners, but they are not the 'beat-all' solution.  Many of us do not live within walking distance of anything (we prefer few neighbors that are polite with fences), and need vehicles to pay our taxes (from our labor).


----------



## logical4u

rdean said:


> logical4u said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> midcan5 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Why do conservatives hate America?  There were no negative threads when Toyota or Nissan came out with electric?  The dislike conservatives show toward America's work force, technological accomplishments, and government is bewildering. They wave flags as but criticize the place they live in and off.  Reagan's firing of America workers is the model for today. How odd.
> 
> 
> Join me, please.
> 
> I was riding home today after a middle distance bicycle ride, tired and a bit out of shape when I started counting cars, America - foreign, American - foreign. It occurred to me if only a small percentage of these people, the people who can afford more than a used clunker, bought American there would be no problems in one of our largest industries today. And lots of people would have a job and lots of businesses would be OK. May even help those incompetent bankers.
> 
> So I started giving thumbs up for American and thumbs down for foreign. Hard to distinguish which foreign car is made here, but no need I am a bit of a hard core American when it comes to cars. My '55' Chevy was my first love.
> 
> I'm sure the people thought me spastic, as my left hand thumb pointed up, then down, then up as cars drove by. Did anyone figure it out I wondered. Who is this nut! So if the whiners who lost the election can out of the blue, protest taxes, can we not protest something that has been going on for years due to cheaper prices, support structures, and no pensions, but still is having an insidious affect on our industrial base?
> 
> So if you own foreign go to you nearest mirror and give yourself a thumbs down and if you own American and thus support all of us and America, a thumbs up is due and thank you. Take to the streets and express yourself. The bankers thank you too.
> 
> Oh, and my bicycle is made in America too.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Conservatives do not hate America.  They do not want a "nanny" state: the government telling/ordering (with the threat of fines or jail time) how to live their lives.  In short, conservatives believe in: life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness (notice, there is nothing there about making anyone else happy, or miserable, for that matter).  Why do libs want a "nanny" state?
> 
> I tried buying "American"; I opened the hood and found a foreign made engine.  The windshield was made in Mexico, etc.
> 
> Try good old competition, not protected status; it works to provide the best product at the best price.  If there isn't a market, the resources are quickly moved to a more appropriate product.  If there is not enough supply, the price will reflect the considered value.
> 
> Why do libs think other people need their opinion to decide how something fits into 'their personal' lives?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> GOP Senate nominee Carly Fiorina, while a CEO, sent 18,000 jobs to China.  They recently had their salaries doubled to 73 dollars a week.  Is this what you call "fair and competitive"?  Just asking.  Do you think Americans should be making 72 dollars a week to compete?
Click to expand...


The libs are supporting 'undocumented workers', many that work for less than above, and are easily forced into slave labor (in some of the wealthy politician homes).  Our 'lib' politicians 'force' a minimum wage for 'citizens'.  It has caused a recession, disagreement with neighbors and violent people that would hurt 'citizens' to be allowed in this country.  Is this what you want for this country?


----------



## JiggsCasey

daveman said:


> Yeah, not really.  It's the left that's hoping for the Magic Energy that's non-polluting, renewable, and cheap, and wants to hamstring current energy sources before the Magic Energy is found.



Yeah, quite "really."

The only "magic energy" hopefulness emanates from cons like yourself who are convinced there is ever more oil, despite the fact that Big Oil, the IEA, the Pentagon, the EIA and our own Dept. of Energy all have no idea where the oil is going to come from, despite decades of seismology exploration.

"Hamstring current energy sources." ... that's some ironic goodness.

 You don't have a clue.


----------



## DiveCon

JiggsCasey said:


> daveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, not really.  It's the left that's hoping for the Magic Energy that's non-polluting, renewable, and cheap, and wants to hamstring current energy sources before the Magic Energy is found.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, quite "really."
> 
> The only "magic energy" hopefulness emanates from cons like yourself who are convinced there is ever more oil, despite the fact that Big Oil, the IEA, the Pentagon, the EIA and our own Dept. of Energy all have no idea where the oil is going to come from, despite decades of seismology exploration.
> 
> "Hamstring current energy sources." ... that's some ironic goodness.
> 
> You don't have a clue.
Click to expand...

no, it's no him that doesnt have a clue
go look in the mirror
you might actually find a clue


----------



## daveman

JBeukema said:


> daveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JBeukema said:
> 
> 
> 
> It depends. If not all the power generated is being  used, it holds true so long as the total power used does not surpass that generated and successfully transferred to the point o use
> 
> 
> 
> If more power is generated than is used, where does it go?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> A lot of it is heat. Excess electricity might be stored temporarily, else it would have to be discharged somewhere along the way. Conservation of energy.
Click to expand...

What is "excess" electricity? And how and where might it be stored?


----------



## daveman

saveliberty said:


> Most train engines are diesel electric now right?



Yes.


----------



## daveman

JiggsCasey said:


> daveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, not really.  It's the left that's hoping for the Magic Energy that's non-polluting, renewable, and cheap, and wants to hamstring current energy sources before the Magic Energy is found.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, quite "really."
> 
> The only "magic energy" hopefulness emanates from cons like yourself who are convinced there is ever more oil, despite the fact that Big Oil, the IEA, the Pentagon, the EIA and our own Dept. of Energy all have no idea where the oil is going to come from, despite decades of seismology exploration.
> 
> "Hamstring current energy sources." ... that's some ironic goodness.
> 
> You don't have a clue.
Click to expand...

Let's see:  The left doesn't want to drill for oil, ties up new nuke plant permits in court for decades, wants to slap punishing and prohibitive fines on the coal industry, all the while without an alternative source that will scale up to replace even a tiny fraction of the energy production they want to shut down.

Yeah, looks like I'm right.


----------



## JBeukema

daveman said:


> JBeukema said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> daveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> If more power is generated than is used, where does it go?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A lot of it is heat. Excess electricity might be stored temporarily, else it would have to be discharged somewhere along the way. Conservation of energy.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> What is "excess" electricity? And how and where might it be stored?
Click to expand...



Excess electricity would be any electricity generated that's not used.

Where can electrical energy be stored? Really?


----------



## daveman

JBeukema said:


> daveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JBeukema said:
> 
> 
> 
> A lot of it is heat. Excess electricity might be stored temporarily, else it would have to be discharged somewhere along the way. Conservation of energy.
> 
> 
> 
> What is "excess" electricity? And how and where might it be stored?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Excess electricity would be any electricity generated that's not used.
Click to expand...

I think you have only a rudimentary and inaccurate understanding of electrical power production.

_Not one single ampere comes out of a power plant that isn't demanded by the plant itself, the grid, or losses in the grid_.  If there is no demand, there is no power generated to meet that demand.  

It's possible you're thinking of excess capacity.  If a 10MW plant is loaded at 50%, there is 5MW of excess capacity.  That does not mean there is 5MW of electricity being stored somewhere, or converted to heat at the plant.  It's simply not being created.  Half as much fuel is being burned as when the plant is operating at 100%.



JBeukema said:


> Where can electrical energy be stored? Really?


Yes, really.  Where and how would a power plant store electricity?


----------



## DiveCon

daveman said:


> JBeukema said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> daveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> What is "excess" electricity? And how and where might it be stored?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Excess electricity would be any electricity generated that's not used.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I think you have only a rudimentary and inaccurate understanding of electrical power production.
> 
> _Not one single ampere comes out of a power plant that isn't demanded by the plant itself, the grid, or losses in the grid_.  If there is no demand, there is no power generated to meet that demand.
> 
> It's possible you're thinking of excess capacity.  If a 10MW plant is loaded at 50%, there is 5MW of excess capacity.  That does not mean there is 5MW of electricity being stored somewhere, or converted to heat at the plant.  It's simply not being created.  Half as much fuel is being burned as when the plant is operating at 100%.
> 
> 
> 
> JBeukema said:
> 
> 
> 
> Where can electrical energy be stored? Really?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Yes, really.  Where and how would a power plant store electricity?
Click to expand...

batteries?


----------



## daveman

DiveCon said:


> daveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JBeukema said:
> 
> 
> 
> Excess electricity would be any electricity generated that's not used.
> 
> 
> 
> I think you have only a rudimentary and inaccurate understanding of electrical power production.
> 
> _Not one single ampere comes out of a power plant that isn't demanded by the plant itself, the grid, or losses in the grid_.  If there is no demand, there is no power generated to meet that demand.
> 
> It's possible you're thinking of excess capacity.  If a 10MW plant is loaded at 50%, there is 5MW of excess capacity.  That does not mean there is 5MW of electricity being stored somewhere, or converted to heat at the plant.  It's simply not being created.  Half as much fuel is being burned as when the plant is operating at 100%.
> 
> 
> 
> JBeukema said:
> 
> 
> 
> Where can electrical energy be stored? Really?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Yes, really.  Where and how would a power plant store electricity?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> batteries?
Click to expand...

It's been done.


----------



## JBeukema

> _Not one single ampere comes out of a power plant that isn't demanded by the plant itself, the grid, or losses in the grid_.  If there is no demand, there is no power generated to meet that demand.



Lights are turned on and off constantly; true demand is always varying. To prevent brownouts, they must produce towards the high-end of expected demand. When that demand diminishes enough to justify lowering production, there will necessarily be a delay.

If an increase in demand is small enough to fall within this window of excess production designed to ensure grid security (eg: when I turn on my light), it will not necessitate increased production at the plant because it was already anticipated and/or is compensated for my the inherit inefficiencies that necessitate producing more energy than is actually needed most of the time in order to prevent the brownouts that would result from trying to produce only what is absolutely needed.

It's a relatively small window, but it's there.


> Yes, really.  Where and how would a power plant store electricity?



Grid energy storage - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


----------



## daveman

JBeukema said:


> Lights are turned on and off constantly; true demand is always varying. To prevent brownouts, they must produce towards the high-end of expected demand. When that demand diminishes enough to justify lowering production, there will necessarily be a delay.
> 
> If an increase in demand is small enough to fall within this window of excess production designed to ensure grid security (eg: when I turn on my light), it will not necessitate increased production at the plant because it was already anticipated and/or is compensated for my the inherit inefficiencies that necessitate producing more energy than is actually needed most of the time in order to prevent the brownouts that would result from trying to produce only what is absolutely needed.
> 
> It's a relatively small window, but it's there.


There can be no excess in production without the power going somewhere.  And if it's not going to the grid, it's not going anywhere.  You know, that conservation of energy thing you were talking about earlier.


JBeukema said:


> Yes, really.  Where and how would a power plant store electricity?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Grid energy storage - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Click to expand...

All expensive, and none in widespread use.


----------



## westwall

Yukon. said:


> bigrebnc1775 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yukon. said:
> 
> 
> 
> Rdean,
> 
> Dont waste your time explaining the horrors of war to cowradly, bloated, right-wing cowards. Those of us who have served understand what horror is.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm one of those who have served and I call BULLSHIT on your reply and rdeans reply.
> Care to tell me what your MOS or AFSC was? Oh and Jehovah's Witnesses don't join the military they are anti government which I do believe that you are a Jehovah's Witnesses. I remember your 144,000 comment.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You rotting, cowardly, vile, disgusting, lying, waste of human flesh. How dare you challenge my service or my patriotism.
Click to expand...






You reap what you sow bucko.


----------



## konradv

clevergirl said:


> daveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Truthmatters said:
> 
> 
> 
> At the momment that may be true but alternatives exsist and will continue to be developed.
> 
> In the future you willl be able to plug your car into a meter in every parking place instead of a parking meter.
> 
> Charge while you park at work and at home.
> 
> If every house had solar and wind capability things would be VERY different.
> 
> 
> 
> Someday.  Maybe.  Meanwhile, right now, here in the real world, if you plug in an electric car, there's a 71% chance it's being recharged by burning something, and another 20% chance it's being recharged by nuclear power.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There simply is no renewable source as yet that will scale up sufficiently to replace fossil fuels or nuclear power.   I'm not saying we shouldn't explore alternatives, but let's not kid ourselves that electric vehicles do anything besides relocate the problem, mmmkay?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I drive a Prius. I bought it used at a great price. I get about 450 miles to a tank (maybe 500, but I never let it go there) at a price of about 22 bucks to fill up. I can't help but LOVE my savings.
> 
> That said, I also know that the impact to the environment to both make the batteries and dispose of them when they die, is huge. I agree with your first assumption about nuclear powered grid systems that could someday efficiently power everything, including transportation. This  is where our investment in technologies should be going.
Click to expand...


Even though much electrical generation is done by burning fossil fuels, it's still much more efficient than burning gasoline or diesel in your car.  As for nuclear, I'd like to see some data that proves the waste from batteries is actually worse that than that from nuclear plants.  Battery waste can be neutralized or re-cycled on a chemical basis, nuclear waste cannot.  That brings me to my final point which is that the investment in technology should be directed toward fusion power, NOT fission.

ITER - the way to new energy   or     

Department of Energy - Fusion


----------



## daveman

konradv said:


> Even though much electrical generation is done by burning fossil fuels, it's still much more efficient than burning gasoline or diesel in your car.  As for nuclear, I'd like to see some data that proves the waste from batteries is actually worse that than that from nuclear plants.


Who said it was?  


konradv said:


> Battery waste can be neutralized or re-cycled on a chemical basis, nuclear waste cannot.  That brings me to my final point which is that the investment in technology should be directed toward fusion power, NOT fission.
> 
> ITER - the way to new energy   or
> 
> Department of Energy - Fusion


And how far away is that?  

There is no one Magic Energy.  ALL avenues should be pursued, including existing technologies.


----------



## Harry Dresden

Yukon. said:


> bigrebnc1775 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yukon. said:
> 
> 
> 
> Rdean,
> 
> Dont waste your time explaining the horrors of war to cowradly, bloated, right-wing cowards. Those of us who have served understand what horror is.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm one of those who have served and I call BULLSHIT on your reply and rdeans reply.
> Care to tell me what your MOS or AFSC was? Oh and Jehovah's Witnesses don't join the military they are anti government which I do believe that you are a Jehovah's Witnesses. I remember your 144,000 comment.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You rotting, cowardly, vile, disgusting, lying, waste of human flesh. How dare you challenge my service or my patriotism.
Click to expand...


notice how he dodges answering the military part......not only is he a lowlife molester he is one of them thar "i served phonies"......


----------



## jillian

daveman said:


> syrenn said:
> 
> 
> 
> But...at the moment they are politically correct.
> 
> 
> 
> Liberals feeling good about themselves is all that matters.
Click to expand...


or maybe they are currently the best alternative to continuing to put money into the hands of people who give it to people who hate us?


----------



## Harry Dresden

WillowTree said:


> Harry Dresden said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yukon. said:
> 
> 
> 
> Conservatives hate America because America is controlled by a Negro President.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> America has a black President?.....but his mom was a white woman?....and the President does not CONTROL the Country.....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> He sure as fuck tries Harry. He sure as fuck tries.
Click to expand...


as long as Pelosi is there....he cant do shit....she wont hear of it....i dont know if this is a good thing or a bad thing....


----------



## Harry Dresden

daveman said:


> Yukon. said:
> 
> 
> 
> Rdean,
> 
> Dont waste your time explaining the horrors of war to cowradly, bloated, right-wing cowards. Those of us who have served understand what horror is.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Has Rdean served in combat?  For that matter, have you served in combat?
Click to expand...


he said he fought in Vietnam in the other thread a few days ago.....ABS asked a few pertinent questions.....and all we saw of Yukon was..........never seen a poster move so quick.......


----------



## daveman

jillian said:


> daveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> syrenn said:
> 
> 
> 
> But...at the moment they are politically correct.
> 
> 
> 
> Liberals feeling good about themselves is all that matters.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> or maybe they are currently the best alternative to continuing to put money into the hands of people who give it to people who hate us?
Click to expand...


If you'd let us drill for our own oil, we wouldn't have to give the people who hate us so much money, would we?


----------



## daveman

Harry Dresden said:


> daveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yukon. said:
> 
> 
> 
> Rdean,
> 
> Dont waste your time explaining the horrors of war to cowradly, bloated, right-wing cowards. Those of us who have served understand what horror is.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Has Rdean served in combat?  For that matter, have you served in combat?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> he said he fought in Vietnam in the other thread a few days ago.....ABS asked a few pertinent questions.....and all we saw of Yukon was..........never seen a poster move so quick.......
Click to expand...

But don't you DARE question his service!


----------



## Harry Dresden

rdean said:


> I have not served in combat and I'm fortunate to say that.
> 
> I served in the 3rd Battalion, 16th Field Artillery, 8th Infantry Division from 1975 to 1979 in Baumholder, Germany.  I started off as an 82 Charlie, Forward Observer and was transferred into Military Intelligence where I worked for the last two years I served.
> 
> I'm glad I didn't see any combat.  Most of the officers and many of the enlisted I worked with daily had served in Vietnam.  For the few that did talk about the experience, I consider myself lucky that I didn't have to go through that.
> 
> And this is why I'm a strong supporter of the military and the need to compensate our military.
> 
> No one can tell me the Republicans support our military.  Congressional votes are available for anyone who has the inclination to go look.  Find out how Republicans have voted the last 10 years in support of our troops and they say, with a straight face, they support our troops.  You can't, not with a straight face, it's not possible.
> 
> Spitting on Veterans
> 
> Unbelievably, the Bush administration opposesand has even threatened to vetoan updated GI Bill for Iraq war veterans to give those who risk their lives in Bushs war the same full college benefits the original GI Bill provided for veterans of World War II and Vietnam.
> 
> Even harder to believe, Sen. John McCain, the presumed Republican presidential nominee, also opposes the new GI Bill. McCain was a prisoner of war during Vietnam. Unlike Bush and Cheney, McCain actually knows the overwhelming sacrifices made by American soldiers sent into war by politicians.
> 
> We cant really explain McCains opposition. We can only report the way he tries to explain it. McCain says he opposes full college benefits for soldiers who serve only one enlistment because too many of them might leave the military to attend college. In the course of that one enlistment, a soldier could be sent into active combat in Iraq or Afghanistan as often as three times



Dean.....i believe a BILL FOR THE MILITARY.....should be JUST that.........FOR THE  MILITARY....every penny......now why dont you show us all the fucking other bullshit that was in these so-called "MILITARY" bills......and we can see the REAL reason they voted against it......and why did you not mention all the Democrats who vote no on these things?......many of them also believe it shoud be JUST for the Military.....


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## Harry Dresden

CrusaderFrank said:


> Jesus Christ in Heaven Who the fuck put Rdean in Military Intelligence!?
> 
> Do you see how understated McCarthy was that we were overrun with Marxists in our government?
> 
> Military Intelligence.  Good Fucking Grief!  What next TruthMatters was Miss Congeniality?



we had a letter carrier in our office who served 20 in the Navy and this guy was Naval Intelligence.....after you meet the guy and then find out he was in N.I. ......you pause and then go....."this guy was Navel Intel?"......him?......your shitting me ..right?.....HOLY SHIT.....then you start going WOW........so yea Dean could be.....


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## Harry Dresden

rdean said:


> CrusaderFrank said:
> 
> 
> 
> Jesus Christ in Heaven Who the fuck put Rdean in Military Intelligence!?
> 
> Do you see how understated McCarthy was that we were overrun with Marxists in our government?
> 
> Military Intelligence.  Good Fucking Grief!  What next TruthMatters was Miss Congeniality?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Are you calling me a Marxist?
> 
> The only think worse than a Marxist is a Republican.  At least Marxists love their country enough to help their middle class, not shit on them like Republicans do in this country.....apologize to any foreign companies lately?
Click to expand...


Dean aint a Marxist Frank.....dont insult the Marx Brothers like that........


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## Harry Dresden

rdean said:


> First, go tell it to the gays.  I'm sure they will clue you in on how conservatives have supported leaving them alone.
> It's made up of our neighbors who we elect into office.



i know lots of Democrats out here Dean.....union card carrying follow the Democratic party no matter where it leads....just follow......and many of them are against "gay marriage".....

and they are our neighboors are they?.......maybe at the local level.....Federal?.....yea right....


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## Harry Dresden

DiveCon said:


> daveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> DiveCon said:
> 
> 
> 
> there you go, supporting science
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I like to go against stereotype.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> rdean and TM will be here shortly to say that you dont
> 
> LOL
Click to expand...


Dean will just say he is one of the 6%......

TM.....will try and twist it, to try to make Dave sound like her, when she answers posts.....so she can try and laugh at him like we do to her.....


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## Harry Dresden

westwall said:


> Yukon. said:
> 
> 
> 
> You rotting, cowardly, vile, disgusting, lying, waste of human flesh. How dare you challenge my service or my patriotism.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You reap what you sow bucko.
Click to expand...


and this pile of Yeti droppings did a hell of a lot of SOWING during the last 18 months.....he is reaping it....


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## konradv

daveman said:


> konradv said:
> 
> 
> 
> Even though much electrical generation is done by burning fossil fuels, it's still much more efficient than burning gasoline or diesel in your car.  As for nuclear, I'd like to see some data that proves the waste from batteries is actually worse that than that from nuclear plants.
> 
> 
> 
> Who said it was?
> 
> 
> konradv said:
> 
> 
> 
> Battery waste can be neutralized or re-cycled on a chemical basis, nuclear waste cannot.  That brings me to my final point which is that the investment in technology should be directed toward fusion power, NOT fission.
> 
> ITER - the way to new energy   or
> 
> Department of Energy - Fusion
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> And how far away is that?
> 
> There is no one Magic Energy.  ALL avenues should be pursued, including existing technologies.
Click to expand...


Actually when it comes to fruition, most of the others will fall to the wayside.  That's why asking how long isn't the right question.  We should be doing everything to shorten that time.


----------



## DiveCon

konradv said:


> daveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> konradv said:
> 
> 
> 
> Even though much electrical generation is done by burning fossil fuels, it's still much more efficient than burning gasoline or diesel in your car.  As for nuclear, I'd like to see some data that proves the waste from batteries is actually worse that than that from nuclear plants.
> 
> 
> 
> Who said it was?
> 
> 
> konradv said:
> 
> 
> 
> Battery waste can be neutralized or re-cycled on a chemical basis, nuclear waste cannot.  That brings me to my final point which is that the investment in technology should be directed toward fusion power, NOT fission.
> 
> ITER - the way to new energy   or
> 
> Department of Energy - Fusion
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> And how far away is that?
> 
> There is no one Magic Energy.  ALL avenues should be pursued, including existing technologies.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Actually when it comes to fruition, most of the others will fall to the wayside.  That's why asking how long isn't the right question.  We should be doing everything to shorten that time.
Click to expand...

but you shouldn't cut off current supplies when the "magic" energy isn't here yet


----------



## saveliberty

A lot of people ended up in the service because jail or no job was the alternative.  Not sure if that happens anymore.  Just saying, military service does not equate to patriotism or a quality human being necessarily.  I think you get a better idea when you combine that service with how a person acts here in the site.  Several of our members are outstanding individuals and others fall into Yukon's category.


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## daveman

konradv said:


> daveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> konradv said:
> 
> 
> 
> Even though much electrical generation is done by burning fossil fuels, it's still much more efficient than burning gasoline or diesel in your car.  As for nuclear, I'd like to see some data that proves the waste from batteries is actually worse that than that from nuclear plants.
> 
> 
> 
> Who said it was?
> 
> 
> konradv said:
> 
> 
> 
> Battery waste can be neutralized or re-cycled on a chemical basis, nuclear waste cannot.  That brings me to my final point which is that the investment in technology should be directed toward fusion power, NOT fission.
> 
> ITER - the way to new energy   or
> 
> Department of Energy - Fusion
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> And how far away is that?
> 
> There is no one Magic Energy.  ALL avenues should be pursued, including existing technologies.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Actually when it comes to fruition, most of the others will fall to the wayside.  That's why asking how long isn't the right question.  We should be doing everything to shorten that time.
Click to expand...

We should be pursuing ALL avenues at the same time, because there will be no single source of energy that will replace current sources.

Unless you can think of a way to get a container ship across the Pacific without burning something.


----------



## JBeukema

daveman said:


> jillian said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> daveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> Liberals feeling good about themselves is all that matters.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> or maybe they are currently the best alternative to continuing to put money into the hands of people who give it to people who hate us?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> If you'd let us drill for our own oil, we wouldn't have to give the people who hate us so much money, would we?
Click to expand...



Unless you're going to nationalize the oil industry, there's no such thing as 'drilling for our own oil'. All the oil drilled goes into the market and we still have to bid on it.


----------



## Jeremy

JBeukema said:


> daveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> jillian said:
> 
> 
> 
> or maybe they are currently the best alternative to continuing to put money into the hands of people who give it to people who hate us?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If you'd let us drill for our own oil, we wouldn't have to give the people who hate us so much money, would we?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Unless you're going to nationalize the oil industry, there's no such thing as 'drilling for our own oil'. All the oil drilled goes into the market and we still have to bid on it.
Click to expand...


Sadly, _That_ is the inconvenient truth.


----------



## konradv

daveman said:


> konradv said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> daveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> Who said it was?
> 
> And how far away is that?
> 
> There is no one Magic Energy.  ALL avenues should be pursued, including existing technologies.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Actually when it comes to fruition, most of the others will fall to the wayside.  That's why asking how long isn't the right question.  We should be doing everything to shorten that time.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> We should be pursuing ALL avenues at the same time, because there will be no single source of energy that will replace current sources.
> 
> Unless you can think of a way to get a container ship across the Pacific without burning something.
Click to expand...


The two concepts aren't mutually exclusive, people.  A call to do more about fusion doesn't mean abandonoing everything else!!!


----------

