# Russian provocation, lets see what Obama does if Russia moves



## RetiredGySgt (Feb 27, 2014)

Armed men seize government building in Ukraine's Crimea-Interfax

Russia claims to be worried about Crimea. By supporting Russian separatists that seize the Buildings, if the Ukraine reacts as expected with force, the Russians can claim they must act to protect Russians.

We will see what Obama and Kerry do now. They both warned Russia not to violate the Ukraine's territory.


----------



## PaintMyHouse (Feb 27, 2014)

I say that we must act in the most resolute and profound manner possible.  We must, without question or fear of repercussions, boycott the Olympics in Sochi.


----------



## RetiredGySgt (Feb 27, 2014)

Ok new information, the men that seized the buildings are wearing uniforms with arm bands the color of the Soviet victory in WW2. They are heavily armed, well disciplined and seem well organized.

I am betting that the Russians sent them to provoke an attack so they can claim Russians in the Crimea are being abused. Factor in that Putin just put most of the Russian Military on alert for maneuvers and you have a glimpse of an attempt to invade the Ukraine.

We told Russia not to intervene. Think Obama will do anything if Russia does anyway? I am betting no. And I am betting that Putin thinks the same.


----------



## The2ndAmendment (Feb 27, 2014)

Here's my opinion.

We have larger problems at home, like the NSA and the NDAA and Obamacare and Gun Grabbing.


----------



## RetiredGySgt (Feb 27, 2014)

The2ndAmendment said:


> Here's my opinion.
> 
> We have larger problems at home, like the NSA and the NDAA and Obamacare and Gun Grabbing.



Burying our heads in the sand did not work in the 30's and it won't work now. a renewed aggressive Russia is a direct threat to our nation and our stability. If Russia seizes Ukraine and no one acts they will be free to seize other nations that broke away from the old Soviet Union. And THAT will lead to war.


----------



## Meathead (Feb 27, 2014)

The West is in a period of very weak leadership. We will do nothing.


----------



## Two Thumbs (Feb 27, 2014)

The only thing we should do is stop sending russia money.

if need be, attempt diplomacy and aid any refugees.

war, if and only if, the Ukrainians ask for help.


but really, it's not our fucking business


----------



## RetiredGySgt (Feb 27, 2014)

Two Thumbs said:


> The only thing we should do is stop sending russia money.
> 
> if need be, attempt diplomacy and aid any refugees.
> 
> ...



It wasn't our business when Germany seized Rhineland, it wasn't our business when Germany seized Austria, it wasn't our business when Germany seized the Czechs, it wasn't our Business when Germany attacked Poland, Great Britain and France, It wasn't our business when Germany attacked Norway, Denmark, Belgium, the Netherlands and Luxemburg, It wasn't our business when Germany attacked Yugoslavia and Greece,it wasn't our business when Germany attacked the Soviet Union.

Remind me what happened next?

If Russia seizes Ukraine and we do not acted they WILL seize other nations as well. Exactly when does it become our business?


----------



## ScienceRocks (Feb 27, 2014)

So you want us to bomb and invade Russia...wow, but you don't want us investing in our own country. weird.


----------



## RetiredGySgt (Feb 27, 2014)

Matthew said:


> So you want us to bomb and invade Russia...wow, but you don't want us investing in our own country. weird.



Go bury your head in the sand you are good at it. If the Russians are left to seize any Country they please where exactly do you think it will end?


----------



## LoneLaugher (Feb 27, 2014)

RetiredGySgt said:


> Two Thumbs said:
> 
> 
> > The only thing we should do is stop sending russia money.
> ...



Wow. This seems very serious. When you put it like that. Eeeeeeeeseeeek!


----------



## RetiredGySgt (Feb 27, 2014)

Matthew said:


> So you want us to bomb and invade Russia...wow, but you don't want us investing in our own country. weird.



By the way, Bill Clinton came up with the bright idea to divert up to 60 percent of the taxes for road maintenance. You are aware we pay a heavy tax on every gallon of gas we buy? And that it's purpose is to maintain the infrastructure of our highways bridges and overpasses?


----------



## Sallow (Feb 27, 2014)

RetiredGySgt said:


> Matthew said:
> 
> 
> > So you want us to bomb and invade Russia...wow, but you don't want us investing in our own country. weird.
> ...



Obviously it won't stop until they launch an attack over the Mexican border.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LbuQ6APGYnQ]Wolverines - YouTube[/ame]

Here's a thought. Why don't all you second amenders pickup your arms and go defend Freedom overseas.


----------



## Meathead (Feb 27, 2014)

RetiredGySgt said:


> Two Thumbs said:
> 
> 
> > The only thing we should do is stop sending russia money.
> ...


That's a ridiculous and hackneyed analogy. The Ukraine is squarely in Russia's sphere of influence with a very large ethnic Russian population. In Crimea in fact they are the majority. The Ukraine is far more Russia business than ours and they certainly have the power to assert it.


----------



## Geaux4it (Feb 27, 2014)

RetiredGySgt said:


> Armed men seize government building in Ukraine's Crimea-Interfax
> 
> Russia claims to be worried about Crimea. By supporting Russian separatists that seize the Buildings, if the Ukraine reacts as expected with force, the Russians can claim they must act to protect Russians.
> 
> We will see what Obama and Kerry do now. They both warned Russia not to violate the Ukraine's territory.



Red line.. You can keep your red line. Period

-Geaux


----------



## Geaux4it (Feb 27, 2014)

RetiredGySgt said:


> The2ndAmendment said:
> 
> 
> > Here's my opinion.
> ...



We can thank the inept, weak, worthless POS Obama for this. 

-Geaux


----------



## JimH52 (Feb 27, 2014)

Russia won't move.  But if they do, I doubt Obama will fabricate WMD information so that he can invade a country.


----------



## Geaux4it (Feb 27, 2014)

JimH52 said:


> Russia won't move.  But if they do, I doubt Obama will fabricate WMD information so that he can invade a country.



Your right... Obama will do nothing

-Geaux


----------



## Meathead (Feb 27, 2014)

JimH52 said:


> Russia won't move.  But if they do, I doubt Obama will fabricate WMD information so that he can invade a country.


He wouldn't need to fabricate and probably isn't stupid enough to try anyway.


----------



## JakeStarkey (Feb 27, 2014)

The Crimea has been Russian or Russian dominated for centuries.

The belligerents are probably the equivalent on the old Spetzniks.

RGS, our best national interest is to let the Ukrainians and Russians work out one way or another.


----------



## The Rabbi (Feb 27, 2014)

Meathead said:


> RetiredGySgt said:
> 
> 
> > Two Thumbs said:
> ...



Chamberlain said exactly the same about the Sudetenland.


----------



## The Rabbi (Feb 27, 2014)

Geaux4it said:


> JimH52 said:
> 
> 
> > Russia won't move.  But if they do, I doubt Obama will fabricate WMD information so that he can invade a country.
> ...



I disagree.
Obama will wag his finger scoldingly and declare he "means it" and he will draw a red line for Russian behavior.  When the RUssians cross that red line he will declare someone else must have done that.
The most incompetent president in history faces probably the most competent Russian leader since Peter the Great. The world will be laughing at us for years.


----------



## Mr Natural (Feb 27, 2014)

Yeah, let's get into it with Russia over the Ukraine.

There's nothing like a good ol' war to keep, these Neo Con assholes happy.


----------



## The Rabbi (Feb 27, 2014)

Mr Clean said:


> Yeah, let's get into it with Russia over the Ukraine.
> 
> There's nothing like a good ol' wart to keep, these Neo Con assholes happy.



Coward


----------



## Meathead (Feb 27, 2014)

The Rabbi said:


> Meathead said:
> 
> 
> > RetiredGySgt said:
> ...


Chamberlain may have been right. The Sudetenland border was a legacy of a vanished Austrian Empire.  He screwed up when he said, "Peace for our time.".


----------



## Sallow (Feb 27, 2014)

Geaux4it said:


> JimH52 said:
> 
> 
> > Russia won't move.  But if they do, I doubt Obama will fabricate WMD information so that he can invade a country.
> ...



Yes because lying about a reason to invade a country that did nothing to you and massacring hundreds of thousand innocent civilians is so much better.

That's what Jebus would do.


----------



## Mr Natural (Feb 27, 2014)

The Rabbi said:


> Mr Clean said:
> 
> 
> > Yeah, let's get into it with Russia over the Ukraine.
> ...



You or your kids go first, tough guy.


----------



## Mac1958 (Feb 27, 2014)

.

Putin will get his way, this isn't exactly a puzzle.

Obama won't be able to do much, because he knows there's not much he *can* do.  We either go to war with Russia over this or we don't, and that just can't happen.

.


----------



## MisterBeale (Feb 27, 2014)

Let me know when Russia invades Poland or Germany, then we'll talk Turkey.


----------



## editec (Feb 27, 2014)

RetiredGySgt said:


> Armed men seize government building in Ukraine's Crimea-Interfax
> 
> Russia claims to be worried about Crimea. By supporting Russian separatists that seize the Buildings, if the Ukraine reacts as expected with force, the Russians can claim they must act to protect Russians.
> 
> We will see what Obama and Kerry do now. They both warned Russia not to violate the Ukraine's territory.



What do you expect this BANKRUPTED nation to do?

We've already been told to mind our own business in Syria (by Russia and China)

The world is recognizing that we have become a paper tiger  (paper as in Bonds and debts, meaning we have no money to fight protracted wars)

Yup lets just give still more tax breaks to billionaires and while we're at it? Let's DISBAND our military since we no longer want to pay for it.


----------



## jknowgood (Feb 27, 2014)

Obama will do nothing, he has a gay parade to attend.


----------



## Book of Jeremiah (Feb 27, 2014)

RetiredGySgt said:


> Ok new information, the men that seized the buildings are wearing uniforms with arm bands the color of the Soviet victory in WW2. They are heavily armed, well disciplined and seem well organized.
> 
> I am betting that the Russians sent them to provoke an attack so they can claim Russians in the Crimea are being abused. Factor in that Putin just put most of the Russian Military on alert for maneuvers and you have a glimpse of an attempt to invade the Ukraine.
> 
> We told Russia not to intervene. Think Obama will do anything if Russia does anyway? I am betting no. And I am betting that Putin thinks the same.



Right.  The information on the Russians wearing Soviet colors doesn't suprise me.  The message he's sending is the Soviets are back and more aggressive than ever.  We haven't seen anything yet.  Sarge, they never went away - they were building up all along - it was a ploy.  Putin is a monster.  People need to get ahold of that truth now because he is. 

Vladimir Zhirinovsky wanted the president of the Ukraine out too.  Keep in mind mad Vlad and Putin have the same vision for the middle east.  Use the Muslims to march to the South ( Vladmir Zhirinovsky's book - Final March to the South - is about taking Israel ) to take Israel and then wipe out all the Muslims on the mountains of Jerusalem and take it for themselves.  The timing on this Ukraine story is not by chance.  

The Chinese are moving closer to an invasion on Taiwan.  When they make their final move the USA will be forced to respond ( I believe Obama will respond to China on that one) which will be the signal for the Russians to invade the USA.     We've got sightings of Chinese troops down in Mexico - a very large presence and the cartel bosses are reporting they are training with North Korean soldiers and Cuban soldiers.  The Canadians are reporting a huge presence of Russian troops up in their region and it is reported there are more Russian soldiers in Alaska than American.  Add to this the Russian troops that are inside the USA under the guise of international troops training together on American soil.  

The Iranian cells such as Hizbollah that are here inside USA to assist Russians will be double crossed in the end.  They won't get the land here because the Russians have already promised that to the Chinese to compensate them for the money they won't be getting back from us.    They won't be getting the land of Israel because as Vladimir Zhirinovsky said in his book - they have no plans no sharing the middle east with the Muslims.  He said their dream is to become martyrs and the Russians will arrange that for them when they reach the mountains of Jerusalem.  Many have claimed Zhirinovsky was a mad man who shouldn't be listened to.  I am hearing he enjoys  the support of over 90% of his own party.  ( imagine that - and we say we know the russian mindset - oy vey ) 

The Russians are not going to lead the Islamic nations to war against Israel until America is out of the picture.   Where do the Chinese plan on putting over 200 million Americans?  It depends on who you listen to.  One of China's military commanders made a speech to the chinese people where he justifies the slaughter of 200 million Americans if it means giving the Chinese land they must have.  So if we listen to him they plan on killing most of us.  If we listen to others the Chinese have plans of using approx 200 million Americans in their slave labor camps.   The ghost cities they built in the Mongolian desert ( and other places )  were built as work camps that are virtually inescapable.  They are huge cities that hold 50 - 75 million people each -vacant and empty and waiting.    Google it.   People need to wake up and look at all the signs here.  Because when you put it all together?  It's a dire warning to Americans. 

It saddens me to think that our own presidents, political leaders ( both parties ) have failed the American people to such a degree.


----------



## Book of Jeremiah (Feb 27, 2014)

RetiredGySgt said:


> Two Thumbs said:
> 
> 
> > The only thing we should do is stop sending russia money.
> ...



Czechoslovakia was the tipping point.  Had we not allowed it, WWII could have been diverted.  We won't do anything about the Ukraine.  When the Russians invade America it won't be up to our military to defend our homeland but the citizens of America.   I received this email the other day and saved it.  Interesting facts on hunters in America......

AMERICA 'S HUNTERS ---
A blogger added up the deer license sales in just a handful of states and arrived at a striking conclusion: 

There were over 600,000 hunters this season in the state of Wisconsin .. 
Allow me to restate that number: 600,000!
Over the last several months, Wisconsin 's hunters became the eighth largest army in the world.
(Thats more men under arms than in Iran . More than France and Germany combined.)
These men, deployed to the woods of a single American state, Wisconsin , to hunt with firearms, and NO ONE WAS KILLED.

That number pales in comparison to the 750,000 who hunted the woods of Pennsylvania and Michigan 's 700,000 hunters,
ALL OF WHOM HAVE RETURNED HOME SAFELY.

Toss in a quarter million hunters in West Virginia and it literally establishes the fact that the hunters of those four states alone would comprise the largest army in the world. 
And then add in the total number of hunters in the other 46 states.
It's millions more. 


________ The point? ______________

The US will forever be safe from foreign invasion with that kind of home-grown firepower! Hunting... it's not just a way to fill the freezer.
It's a matter of national security.


***************************************
That's why all enemies, foreign and domestic, want to see us disarmed.


Food for thought, when next we consider gun control.

*  This blogger only counted the hunters in the USA and came up with a number of 50 million armed citizens that know how to use a weapon.  Add to that number people who own guns and do not hunt and the number of armed US citizens jumps to close to 100 million.  Add to that number people who bought guns since Obama became president and we are probably looking at 150 million armed American citizens.   The Chinese govt has been pressuring the Obama admin to disarm the citizens of the United States.    The communist backed United Nations has been pressuring the US govt to disarm their own citizens.    Now you know why.


----------



## pvsi (Feb 27, 2014)

RetiredGySgt said:


> Armed men seize government building in Ukraine's Crimea-Interfax
> 
> Russia claims to be worried about Crimea. By supporting Russian separatists that seize the Buildings, if the Ukraine reacts as expected with force, the Russians can claim they must act to protect Russians.
> 
> We will see what Obama and Kerry do now. They both warned Russia not to violate the Ukraine's territory.


America can attack small nations but will never attack a nation such as Russia or China, or anything close to their own size, it has nothing to do with Obama - Obama has absolutely no power, he promised to the voters to meet with leaders of Iran and Syria, but every time he flies to the middle east, his plane gets derailed to Israel.


----------



## Book of Jeremiah (Feb 27, 2014)

If China invades Taiwan we will respond and the Russians and Chinese already know this.  We're being drawn in to a war with China so that the Russians can retaliate.   Wait and see.


----------



## rightwinger (Feb 27, 2014)

The choice is clear

Obama should either invade Russia or work on his healthcare system

No question which is more important


----------



## The Rabbi (Feb 27, 2014)

Meathead said:


> The Rabbi said:
> 
> 
> > Meathead said:
> ...



Chamberlain was right??  That's nuts.


----------



## The Rabbi (Feb 27, 2014)

rightwinger said:


> The choice is clear
> 
> Obama should either invade Russia or work on his healthcare system
> 
> No question which is more important



Either one will be disaster.


----------



## BlindBoo (Feb 27, 2014)

RetiredGySgt said:


> Two Thumbs said:
> 
> 
> > The only thing we should do is stop sending russia money.
> ...



FDR made it our business(along with Germany's ally Japan), and not withstanding the isolationist doing everything they could to keep us out of the War.

I predict TP and GOP opposition to whatever decision the President makes if something happens.


----------



## The Rabbi (Feb 27, 2014)

BlindBoo said:


> RetiredGySgt said:
> 
> 
> > Two Thumbs said:
> ...



And I predict that whatever Obama does will be wrong, stupid, laughable, unwise, and fail to achieve any legitimate American objective.


----------



## Katzndogz (Feb 27, 2014)

The difference  is the Poles, Danes or any  other country invaded by Germany didn't consider themselves German.   Half the Ukraine feels they are Russian.  Half wants to be aligned with Russia,  the other half with the EU.  We really have no interest in that fight.  obama has no business telling another country what to do.


----------



## Book of Jeremiah (Feb 27, 2014)

They will get their wish, Katz.  After the Russians invade the US their plans are to take Europe.  Owning the monopoly on natural gas in Europe will certainly give the Russians an advantage.  Especially if it is winter.


----------



## Moonglow (Feb 27, 2014)

RetiredGySgt said:


> Armed men seize government building in Ukraine's Crimea-Interfax
> 
> Russia claims to be worried about Crimea. By supporting Russian separatists that seize the Buildings, if the Ukraine reacts as expected with force, the Russians can claim they must act to protect Russians.
> 
> We will see what Obama and Kerry do now. They both warned Russia not to violate the Ukraine's territory.



Probably the same when Tsarist Russia lost power, a war. With the West's  troops in one section, pro-Russian troops in another and a third front by the revolutionaries..


----------



## Moonglow (Feb 27, 2014)

Katzndogz said:


> The difference  is the Poles, Danes or any  other country invaded by Germany didn't consider themselves German.   Half the Ukraine feels they are Russian.  Half wants to be aligned with Russia,  the other half with the EU.  We really have no interest in that fight.  obama has no business telling another country what to do.



Poles didn't feel German? Even though the Prussian city of Danzig was German  when Hitler invaded...


----------



## BlindBoo (Feb 27, 2014)

The Rabbi said:


> BlindBoo said:
> 
> 
> > RetiredGySgt said:
> ...



I understand that's how you feel.


----------



## Book of Jeremiah (Feb 27, 2014)

The Rabbi said:


> Geaux4it said:
> 
> 
> > JimH52 said:
> ...



I find no similarities between Putin and Peter the Great unless Peter became a wife beating philanderer who stole billions from legitimate businessmen because he didn't come from money - didn't know how to earn it himself.


----------



## The Rabbi (Feb 27, 2014)

BlindBoo said:


> The Rabbi said:
> 
> 
> > BlindBoo said:
> ...



But do you understand it is not a feeling?  It is based on his past decisions, every one wrong, without exception.  This will be no different.


----------



## BlindBoo (Feb 27, 2014)

The Rabbi said:


> BlindBoo said:
> 
> 
> > The Rabbi said:
> ...



That too is subjective, and is unequivocally your feeling.


----------



## MisterBeale (Feb 27, 2014)

rightwinger said:


> The choice is clear
> 
> Obama should either invade Russia or work on his healthcare system
> 
> No question which is more important



Or he could bring Russia down by working on Russia's healthcare system. . .


----------



## Two Thumbs (Feb 27, 2014)

RetiredGySgt said:


> Two Thumbs said:
> 
> 
> > The only thing we should do is stop sending russia money.
> ...



if we had stayed out of WW1 there would not have been a WW2.

so lets stay out and avoid WW3, mmkay?


----------



## Two Thumbs (Feb 27, 2014)

BlindBoo said:


> RetiredGySgt said:
> 
> 
> > Two Thumbs said:
> ...



How many Americans died in fdr war of choice?


----------



## MisterBeale (Feb 27, 2014)

What the western media doesn't want you to know, is that the folks that have taken over in the Ukraine are. . . basically. . . . well. . . . Nazi's.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Inu_-0dcSU]Right Sector. The Great Ukrainian Reconquista - YouTube[/ame]

http://www.salon.com/2014/02/25/is_the_us_backing_neo_nazis_in_ukraine_partner/




> Right Sector is a shadowy syndicate of self-described autonomous nationalists identified by their skinhead style of dress, ascetic lifestyle, and fascination with street violence. Armed with riot shields and clubs, the groups cadres have manned the front lines of the Euromaidan battles this month, filling the air with their signature chant: Ukraine above all! In a recent Right Sector propaganda video [embedded at the bottom of this article], the group promised to fight against degeneration and totalitarian liberalism, for traditional national morality and family values. With Svoboda linked to a constellation of international neo-fascist parties through the Alliance of European National Movements, Right Sector is promising to lead its army of aimless, disillusioned young men on a great European Reconquest.



http://www.timothyeastman.com/uncategorized/an-interview-with-mira-andrei-and-sascha-of-antifascist-action-ukraine/


> S: Nazi groups are also trying to mimic leftists, to try to ingratiate themselves. They use anarchist vocabulary, words like autonomous. One group of the ugliest Nazis is now doing this by calling themselves Autonomous Resistance. Theyve had lots of success with this tactic.
> They attract some Anarchists who think theyre changing the Nazis, but really the Nazis are changing them. Theyre becoming more nationalistic, they have more more anti-feminist views, etc. Now is when Anarchists need to speak out and be louder.
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## bianco (Feb 27, 2014)

Obama should stay right out of Russia v Ukraine.

Let China, Indonesia, NK, India, Germany, Japan, Switzerland, Malaysia, Jordan etc go fight Russia.


----------



## RetiredGySgt (Feb 28, 2014)

Two Thumbs said:


> BlindBoo said:
> 
> 
> > RetiredGySgt said:
> ...



War of choice? WW2 was a war of choice? What fantasy world do you live in? Japan attacked us and Germany declared war. You are beyond stupid.


----------



## RetiredGySgt (Feb 28, 2014)

And it begins just as I said it would.

Ukraine's interior minister condemns seizure of Crimea airports

Who wants to bet Obama does not do anything?

Ohh and Mods why is a thread about Obama and his actions, in Europe?


----------



## MisterBeale (Feb 28, 2014)

RetiredGySgt said:


> And it begins just as I said it would.
> 
> Ukraine's interior minister condemns seizure of Crimea airports
> 
> ...



You know why they put it in the European forum. . . .

1) obviously because it belongs here, and people only view stuff in the politics sub-forum, clean debate sub-forum, and current events, 

and . . . 

2) It is put here in order to mothball it so people around here won't think about it or talk about it.  Naw. . . We're supposed to be talking about the gays, aren't we?


As far as Obama doing nothing?  I don't think it will be that simple.  If you had bothered to read that article I posted, you would find that the State department is behind supporting the Nazis that have forced their way into generally subverting a Democratically elected government.

Why would the US government do this?  So that the Russians would feel they need to exert their influence in their own back yard.  This makes them use up their own political capital, possibly giving the US cover for its own intended future plans for Syria?  It's amazing how quickly aid operations can turn into security operations.

Did you pay attention to the vote on Syria in the UN over the Weekend?  I found how China and Russia voted very interesting, didn't you?


----------



## The Rabbi (Feb 28, 2014)

BlindBoo said:


> The Rabbi said:
> 
> 
> > BlindBoo said:
> ...



Neither of those is true.  The truth is that Obama has fucked up virtually every area of foreign policy, wasting any credibility America has.
He will do the same here.  Wait for him to refer the matter to the U.N.


----------



## Trajan (Feb 28, 2014)

RetiredGySgt said:


> Two Thumbs said:
> 
> 
> > The only thing we should do is stop sending russia money.
> ...



all that is true but I am not sure that analogy holds up here....this is not an Anschluss, not yet 

 The Ukraine has always been seen and practically a satellite ( 'governate' since Peter the Great) of 'Russia' proper.    It was built out as a naval base by Catherine the Great and Kruschev 'gave' the areas in dispute now to Ukraine in the mid 50's as a 'gift'.

The eastern and southern areas now the focus of interest were heavily industrialized in the eastern movement of Russian ( Stalinist) arms factories etc.  era during the nazi invasion and due to the subsequent energy revolution in Russia,  pipeline nexus's etc., this area is more Russo centric  than the western portions of Ukraine. 

 Russia, and  Putin since his accession has been paying a rental fee ( and has continued to invest heavily in the Crimea-Sevastapol) to Ukraine for its continued use since the break up of the USSR, they have a vested historical interest in the Crimea. And i the end, IF thje people living there want to be 'Russian', their claim is as equitable(?) as those in Kiev who want to be 'Ukrainian'.... Looking at this dispassionately, they want to secure Sevastopol and I don't blame them.


----------



## Kondor3 (Feb 28, 2014)

Anybody up fer downsizing the US Army back to pre-WWII conditions?


----------



## Kondor3 (Feb 28, 2014)

NATO has been stiff-arming the Ukraine re: membership for some years now.

I'm guessing that the NATO folks had such a scenario in mind when they held their arms stiff like that.

That, and not wanting to over-excite the Russians, and trigger an Anschluss before the Ukrainians could be integrated into the European defense shield.


----------



## Kondor3 (Feb 28, 2014)

If Putin does seize the Crimea, does that spell the pending doom of Ukrainian independence, as well, once Uncle Vlad has it confirmed for him, what he's figured all along - namely, that there's nobody West of Kiev with the balls to draw a real line in the sand?

The President's (Obama's) remarks at a press conference carried by CNN a few minutes ago were not exactly inspiring.


----------



## Kondor3 (Feb 28, 2014)

Then again, given all the Genocidal Policies and Ethnic Cleansing that the Soviet Russians carried out against the Ukrainians in the decades after the 1917-1918 Revolutions, and that the Russians moved so many ethnic Russians into the eastern part of the Ukraine to fill the vacuum and create population pressure against the surviving Ukrainians... hell... the place is half ethnic Russian already... maybe they should split into East and West Ukraine, with both having a respectable Black Sea access.


----------



## The Rabbi (Feb 28, 2014)

The Rabbi said:


> Geaux4it said:
> 
> 
> > JimH52 said:
> ...



Aaannd, did I call it or what?  The most predictably incompetent president in history.  The Kremlin is laughing its drunken ass off at that clown.
Obama warns Russia of 'costs' for any Ukraine intervention


----------



## Kondor3 (Feb 28, 2014)

Are the Russians still being viewed as a second-string military power (outside the realm of nukes, anyway)?

Have they managed to chip the rust off their naval and air fleets and brought themselves back to First Stringer status?


----------



## JakeStarkey (Feb 28, 2014)

The Rabbi said:


> Meathead said:
> 
> 
> > RetiredGySgt said:
> ...



Derative false analogy.  (1) Putin is not Hitler.  (2) Ukraine is not Sudentenland.  (3) Russia and Ukraine do not affect our national security.


----------



## percysunshine (Feb 28, 2014)

The Rabbi said:


> Aaannd, did I call it or what?  The most predictably incompetent president in history.  The Kremlin is laughing its drunken ass off at that clown.
> Obama warns Russia of 'costs' for any Ukraine intervention




You called it.

Of course...80% of the population of the planet made the same call....chuckle


----------



## LoneLaugher (Feb 28, 2014)

The Rabbi said:


> The Rabbi said:
> 
> 
> > Geaux4it said:
> ...



What did you call?


----------



## MDiver (Feb 28, 2014)

Since 1990, the Ukraine and Poland have had a pact which could in a remote possibility, put Poland into the mix against Russia.  If that were to happen and Russia in any way attacked Poland, as Poland might defend pro-western Ukrainians, then that would generate a mandatory military response from NATO, which Poland is a member of (NATO Treaty calls for military defense of any of its members, if attacked).  That would throw western Europe and the U.S. into the fight.  
However, this scenario is remote as the Polish government would more likely just take in refugees.


----------



## Kondor3 (Feb 28, 2014)

Neither Barack Obama nor John Kerry have any Street Cred when it comes to sabre-rattling.

I have a sinking feeling that the Russians are laughing their asses off at us.


----------



## HenryBHough (Feb 28, 2014)

Threats will be made!

Lines will be drawn!

Sabres will be rattled!

Golf will be played!

And the boys will still sing:

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pJhcGepfG04]The Beatles - Obladi Oblada - YouTube[/ame]

ObLaDi, ObLaDah....life goes on........


----------



## percysunshine (Feb 28, 2014)

Are the airplanes with Russian troops landing yet?

They did the same thing in Afghanistan in 1979.


----------



## HenryBHough (Feb 28, 2014)

Airplanes?

Why when they can just walk.


----------



## Trajan (Feb 28, 2014)

Kondor3 said:


> NATO has been stiff-arming the Ukraine re: membership for some years now.
> 
> I'm guessing that the NATO folks had such a scenario in mind when they held their arms stiff like that.
> 
> That, and not wanting to over-excite the Russians, and trigger an Anschluss before the Ukrainians could be integrated into the European defense shield.



there is no reason to invite Ukraine into nato, Russias ( Putins)  military is a shadow of its self comparatively, with say the 70's 80's. 

Putin may be a kgb/fsb thug but Geo-politics is still a game that must be played, and as obama said, he doesn't play chess, well,  putin and iran do. 

Ukraine most certainly is in Russias sphere of influence and instead of stomping all over Putin a smart Geo-political player, like say a Kissinger or Nixon would have turned Putin into a sometime ally, but we don't have a FP, we have a fire brigade FP, devoid of a chessplayer in a chess game.


----------



## JWBooth (Feb 28, 2014)

Yes Obummer is weak and indecisive on foreign policy.
Realistically, what are the options? 
Move the 6th fleet into the Black Sea? Wouldn't happen even if Krauthammer was potus and Kristol the scty of defense.
Blockade Russia? Riiiiiiiiight.
I know it is frustrating for keyboard warriors and armchair generals, but just as in 2008 when Georgia poked the bear in the eye with a sharp stick and got bitch slapped for it, nothing is gonna happen. 
We certainly have no interests there compelling enough to send troops over to lose their lives over it.

There are no moves on the board other than strongly worded letters of red ass, deal with it.


----------



## JWBooth (Feb 28, 2014)

JakeStarkey said:


> The Rabbi said:
> 
> 
> > Meathead said:
> ...


I'm gonna pretend that I did not see this, otherwise I would have to admit agreeing with fakey.


----------



## Trajan (Feb 28, 2014)

JWBooth said:


> Yes Obummer is weak and indecisive on foreign policy.
> Realistically, what are the options?
> Move the 6th fleet into the Black Sea? Wouldn't happen even if Krauthammer was potus and Kristol the scty of defense.
> Blockade Russia? Riiiiiiiiight.
> ...



yes and when you compare obamas reactions over the last 5 years, and today to what he said ala Georgia back then, wherein Putin really was making a land grab, well, there ya go. 

Oh and don't forget his completely incomprehensible reaction to Zelaya's actions in Honduras and there ya go, his FP is chaotic gobbledygook.


----------



## rhodescholar (Feb 28, 2014)

RetiredGySgt said:


> Burying our heads in the sand did not work in the 30's and it won't work now. a renewed aggressive Russia is a direct threat to our nation and our stability. If Russia seizes Ukraine and no one acts they will be free to seize other nations that broke away from the old Soviet Union. And THAT will lead to war.



What the clueless don't know is that the Budapest Memorandum treaty the US and UK signed with Ukraine requires that we militarily defend them in a conflict, so the US is REQUIRED to act.

Putin that fucking piece of shit cu-t knows that obama is a weak turd, so he sends in out-of-uniform proxy fighters (taking a page from iran and syria) under the fig leaf that they are not Russian "soldiers", so he can pretend there is no invasion, and obozo does not get pulled into following through on the treaty.  This will certainly infuriate Ukraine, who has already disclosed that they will rebuild the nukes they gave up in that treaty since the US/UK are not following their treaty obligations.

If this country has ever had a weaker, less respected leader around the world - I'd have yet to see them.  Putin continues to test the US all over the globe and what do we get?  More horseshit from obummer and kerry claiming how badly we'll condemn russia if they invade Ukraine...


----------



## rhodescholar (Feb 28, 2014)

Sallow said:


> Here's a thought. Why don't all you second amenders pickup your arms and go defend Freedom overseas.



Here's a better thought, how about you just shut the fuck up already and stop posting infantile, moronic garbage?

Another idiot tool with no facts nor brains.  Is there any way to eradicate the cancer of the ron paul psychotic cheerleader?

For the sane, look up Budapest Memorandum.  It IS our fucking business, if we are ever to have ANY credibility again.


----------



## rhodescholar (Feb 28, 2014)

The Rabbi said:


> Mr Clean said:
> 
> 
> > Yeah, let's get into it with Russia over the Ukraine. There's nothing like a good ol' wart to keep, these Neo Con assholes happy.
> ...



No, just a clueless moron who hasn't read a newspaper in 30 years.


----------



## HenryBHough (Feb 28, 2014)

Obama's being backed into a corner!

He can't just sit back and let The Ukraine happen.

He'll do the only thing he can under the circumstances.....

_Fly to Hawaii and play a round of golf._


----------



## Avatar4321 (Feb 28, 2014)

PaintMyHouse said:


> I say that we must act in the most resolute and profound manner possible.  We must, without question or fear of repercussions, boycott the Olympics in Sochi.



not that bright eh?


----------



## Kondor3 (Feb 28, 2014)

Meathead said:


> The West is in a period of very weak leadership. We will do nothing.









Agreed.

For my money, we _SHOULD_ do something, but we will _NOT_.

If *YOU* were Uncle Vlad, would you sweat Obumble or Mister Swift-Boat?


----------



## Avatar4321 (Feb 28, 2014)

Meathead said:


> RetiredGySgt said:
> 
> 
> > Two Thumbs said:
> ...



Austria, Czechloslavakia, and Poland were in German's sphere of influence with a very large ethnic German population, how the heck is the analogy ridiculous?

We'll give Russia half the world and then start war with them.


----------



## Avatar4321 (Feb 28, 2014)

HenryBHough said:


> Obama's being backed into a corner!
> 
> He can't just sit back and let The Ukraine happen.
> 
> ...



The problem is the man has no freakin clue what he is doing.

And that could cost millions of lives.


----------



## Avatar4321 (Feb 28, 2014)

JakeStarkey said:


> The Rabbi said:
> 
> 
> > Meathead said:
> ...



1. No one said he was.
2. No one claimed it was
3. Austria and Poland didn't effect our national security either, until Hitler declared war on us.

The analogy is spot on. The same situation is happening in the exact same way.

Putin will go into the Ukraine. He will go into Georgia. He will keep going until suddenly we are in another war to end all wars.


----------



## Kondor3 (Feb 28, 2014)

Agreed.

The analogy is spot-on.

Clemenza was right ( 1:35 on the clock )...


----------



## GISMYS (Feb 28, 2014)

Must we see this "movie" again????  The following is the wording of the statement that Neville Chamberlain waved when he stepped off the plane after the conference in Berlin had ended on 30 September, 1938.


"We, the German Führer and Chancellor, and the British Prime Minister, have had a further meeting today and are agreed in recognizing that the question of Anglo-German relations is of the first importance for two countries and for Europe. 

"We regard the agreement signed last night and the Anglo-German Naval Agreement as symbolic of the desire of our two peoples never to go to war with one another again. 

"We are resolved that the method of consultation shall be the method adopted to deal with any other questions that may concern our two countries, and we are determined to continue our efforts to remove possible sources of difference, and thus to contribute to assure the peace of Europe."


Chamberlain read this statement to a cheering crowd in front of 10 Downing St. and said; 

"My good friends this is the second time in our history that there has come back from Germany to Downing Street peace with honor. I believe it is peace in our time."


Excerpted from "The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich."


----------



## BDBoop (Mar 1, 2014)

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r6GAgM00MWU]Obama Responds to Russia Heckler: "What the Heck Are You Talking About!?" - YouTube[/ame]


----------



## MDiver (Mar 1, 2014)

Well, the western leaning Ukrainians have announced that the problem with Russia is theirs and they will deal with it.  Problem solved.  It's their worry, not ours or europes.


----------



## Meathead (Mar 1, 2014)

Avatar4321 said:


> Meathead said:
> 
> 
> > RetiredGySgt said:
> ...


Poland and Czechoslovakia were not in Germany's sphere of influence by any standard, although an argument could have been made about the Sudetenland bordering Germany based on irredentism. Germans living in those areas were about 90% of the local population. 

Remember, Russia lost the Cold War, but have never conceded influence over the territories of the former Soviet Union, except the Baltic states. Challenging their control now under decidedly weak western leadership and an increasingly apathetic populace in the face of a resurgent Russia would be a grave and costly mistake.


----------



## percysunshine (Mar 1, 2014)

Well, the fat is in the fire now;

KIEV (AFP) - Russian aircraft carrying nearly 2,000 suspected troops have landed at a military air base near the regional capital of the restive Crimean peninsula, a top Ukrainian official said Friday, accusing Moscow of an "armed invasion".

"Thirteen Russian aircraft landed at the airport of Gvardeyskoye (near Simferopol) with 150 people in each one," Sergiy Kunitsyn, the Ukrainian president's special representive in Crimea, told the local ATR television channel, adding the air space had been closed."

2,000 Russian soldiers land in 'armed invasion' of Crimea: Kiev official


Looks like Hillary's 'reset' button worked. We just reset back to 1956.


----------



## Kondor3 (Mar 1, 2014)

Don't worry...

Fearless Leader will sort it out...






He'll bring back '_Peace in our time_".


----------



## percysunshine (Mar 1, 2014)

Euphemisms abound; War is a 'Kenetic Military Action', and invasion is an 'Uncontested Arrival'.

Orwell was right.

U.S. assessment of Crimea: This isn?t an invasion, it?s an ? ?uncontested arrival? « Hot Air


----------



## percysunshine (Mar 1, 2014)

"Russian President Vladimir Putin has asked parliament for approval to use the country&#8217;s military in Ukraine, the Kremlin said in a statement Saturday.

Putin said the move is needed to protect ethnic Russians and the personnel of a Russian military base in Ukraine&#8217;s strategic region of Crimea. &#8230;"

Russia's Putin Submits Plans For Armed Intervention In Ukraine - NBC News



I guess now we know what Obama ment when he told Putin that he would have more flexibility if he was elected for a second term.

.


----------



## Geaux4it (Mar 1, 2014)

According to CNN just now, parliament approved use of military force. A direct thumb in the eye of Obama not less than 24 hours after declaring, 'consequences' and all

-Geaux


----------



## Kondor3 (Mar 1, 2014)

percysunshine said:


> Euphemisms abound; War is a 'Kenetic Military Action', and invasion is an 'Uncontested Arrival'.
> 
> Orwell was right.
> 
> U.S. assessment of Crimea: This isn?t an invasion, it?s an ? ?uncontested arrival? « Hot Air



War is Peace.

Our Peace Forces continue to pacify the Eastern Regions.

Work. Produce. Obey.

Long live Big Brother.


----------



## percysunshine (Mar 1, 2014)

The US has a secret weapon.

Let's send Joe Biden to Kiev.


----------



## JWBooth (Mar 1, 2014)

Much ado about nothing that actually matters, unless one considers it to be in our interest to control the outcome of everything everywhere.


----------



## Kondor3 (Mar 1, 2014)

A Russian apartment, in suburban Moscow...






"So, what did you guys think about Obama, talking about 'consequences' if we go into the Crimea?"


----------



## Sunshine (Mar 1, 2014)

The2ndAmendment said:


> Here's my opinion.
> 
> We have larger problems at home, like the NSA and the NDAA and Obamacare and Gun Grabbing.



We have a treaty signed in 1994 which may leave us no other option.  BUT Obama has thrown everyone else under the bus, no reason for him not to throw the Ukraine under the bus too.

?Budapest Memorandum? Treaty Signed In 1994 May Commit U.S., Britain To Defend Ukraine | Weasel Zippers


----------



## percysunshine (Mar 1, 2014)

JWBooth said:


> Much ado about nothing that actually matters, unless one considers it to be in our interest to control the outcome of everything everywhere.



As the body count goes up, just keep telling yourself that.


----------



## Sunshine (Mar 1, 2014)

RetiredGySgt said:


> The2ndAmendment said:
> 
> 
> > Here's my opinion.
> ...



Particularly now that they have a stronger, economically  and militarily viable China to whom we currently owe our very asses on their side.


----------



## Kondor3 (Mar 1, 2014)

JWBooth said:


> Much ado about nothing that actually matters, unless one considers it to be in our interest to control the outcome of everything everywhere.


Yeah, you're probably right. I mean, it would have been nice to have the Ukraine as a big-ass buffer-state, friendly to the West, and eventually integrated into the European Union, NATO, etc., to ensure for generations to come that Russia could not threaten and absorb and pseudo-enslave eastern (or all?) of Europe, and it would have been nice to have had the foresight to help the Ukraine avoid its usurpation and subversion by more directly engaging with it on the political and economic fronts, and it would have been nice to manifest some better sort of backbone as a response to this invasion of a potentially friendly and highly valuable partner on the world stage, but... what the hell... nothing that actually matters, I guess.

To be very honest, at this juncture, I don't know what we CAN do, of a positive nature, given that we're already beset with this advance state of affairs and developments, but I don't think what we're doing now is either adequate nor wise, and, armchair-quarterbacking, we've probably made a great many stupid mistakes and omissions in our dealings with that (now ) beleaguered and sad people.


----------



## percysunshine (Mar 1, 2014)

And, of course, our vaunted intelligence services saw this one coming a mile away....


"American intelligence has concluded that Russia won't openly invade Ukraine, despite a massive military exercise on the border and the armed takeover of local airports.

U.S. intelligence estimates conclude that Russia has no intention of invading Ukraine. This, despite the launch of a massive, new Russian military exercise near Ukraine&#8217;s border and moves from armed men to seize two key airports in the country's Crimea region....The assessment is based in part on the fact that not enough medical units have been ordered to accompany the Russian troops to the Ukrainian border to suggest preparation for war, according to one Congressional staffer who has seen intelligence on Russia. This source also said no signal intercepts have detected plans for an invasion.

On Thursday, Secretary of State John Kerry acknowledged that he had been assured in conversations with Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov that Russia respected the territorial integrity of Ukraine.'

Putin?s Bluff? U.S. Spies Say Russia Won't Invade Ukraine - The Daily Beast


----------



## Geaux4it (Mar 1, 2014)

Right now CNN TV just reported Russia parliament has requested the return of their US embassador

-Geaux


----------



## percysunshine (Mar 1, 2014)

Geaux4it said:


> Right now CNN TV just reported Russia parliament has requested the return of their US embassador
> 
> -Geaux



Yep ... much ado about nothing.


----------



## HenryBHough (Mar 1, 2014)

Which will be more tempting?

Start World War III and resolve the unemployment problem/get the economy in gear?

A golf course in Hawaii?


----------



## Trajan (Mar 1, 2014)

percysunshine said:


> Euphemisms abound; War is a 'Kenetic Military Action', and invasion is an 'Uncontested Arrival'.
> 
> Orwell was right.
> 
> U.S. assessment of Crimea: This isn?t an invasion, it?s an ? ?uncontested arrival? « Hot Air





Admin officials tell CNN's Barbara Starr this is an "uncontested arrival" not necessarily "an invasion" and that this distinction is "key."
2:13 PM - 28 Feb 2014


not as catchy as  "overseas contingency operations", but they'll work on it I am sure. 


heres the thing, the  Ukrainian president Viktor Yanukovych was elected with 53% of the vote in a closely watched/internationally monitored  election, pronounced by one and all as the cleanest election in any former soviet republic. 

So, no matter what side you come down on, the protestors or Yanukovychs, his being chased from office was a coup, which begs the question- why is Obama spptting this?



Ponder this; Putin is taking actions to secure Russian citizens in an area of a country (58% Russian)  which is in upheaval, obama is sppting an overthrow, those are the facts. As far as Putin trying to bribe Ukraine to not take a EU deal etc. so what,? We have done it, we do it , we use money and trade deals as leverage all the time.


----------



## novasteve (Mar 1, 2014)

Obama is praying for another professional athlete to come out of the closet so the news can cover that instead.


----------



## percysunshine (Mar 1, 2014)

Trajan said:


> percysunshine said:
> 
> 
> > Euphemisms abound; War is a 'Kenetic Military Action', and invasion is an 'Uncontested Arrival'.
> ...




Obama is not supporting anything. Not really.

Putins claim of ethnicity trumping sovereignty is convenient for the Ukraine, but not so much for  the Caucasus.


----------



## JWBooth (Mar 1, 2014)

HenryBHough said:


> Which will be more tempting?
> 
> Start World War III and resolve the unemployment problem/get the economy in gear?
> 
> A golf course in Hawaii?



I'd vote for the war if only keyboard warriors were hunted down and made to go first.


----------



## JWBooth (Mar 1, 2014)

percysunshine said:


> JWBooth said:
> 
> 
> > Much ado about nothing that actually matters, unless one considers it to be in our interest to control the outcome of everything everywhere.
> ...



No problem, so long as there are no US troops in that body count.


----------



## HenryBHough (Mar 1, 2014)

novasteve said:


> Obama is praying for another professional athlete to come out of the closet so the news can cover that instead.



Without consulting Reverend Wright?

But wait....there's MORE!

Today it's being discussed that Your New Messiah may cancel His planned trip to Russia in retaliation for the moves in Ukraine.

Wow!

He couldn't find His way to Russia to show support for U.S. Olympics athletes; left that to Russian President Putin.  How could He possibly find it in Himself to do it now?  No, best He just leave all that to someone competent.  

Now if Ukraine had a really nice golf course might it all turn out differently?

Probably.


----------



## Kondor3 (Mar 1, 2014)

JWBooth said:


> HenryBHough said:
> 
> 
> > Which will be more tempting?
> ...


Fair enough.

Old Drill Sergeant wisdom says: _Never ask your people to do anything you can't or won't do yourself - and better, preferably_.


----------



## Trajan (Mar 1, 2014)

percysunshine said:


> Trajan said:
> 
> 
> > percysunshine said:
> ...



We supported EU sweetening the deal and the IMF's stepping up inducements to lure Ukraine into the EU orbit, he warned  Yanukovych not to use force and go along with the opposition who were rioting in obection to a deal  Yanukovych would sign with Russia. 

I have not heard obama denounce the forced change of gov. anywhere.


----------



## VladVlad (Mar 1, 2014)

The2ndAmendment said:


> Here's my opinion.
> 
> We have larger problems at home, like the NSA and the NDAA and Obamacare and Gun Grabbing.



You are right! Maidan is neofashists who are common to destabilise the situation near Russian border and make a war. It is very simply. They are not lrgislative. New Ucraine authorities not legislative. The agreement that was signed by German Poland France and Ucraine on 21st of February was not formed by neo fashists government. Thats why they are not legislative. And it is very funny to see BBC news and comments that make US people fool. BBC News - Russian parliament approves troop deployment in Ukraine[/url]  - there is a photo with neonacists that was beaten by Hurkov sitizens, and below is BBC comment "But the protests turned bloody in Kharkiv after these pro-Kiev activists clashed with Russian supporters who were trying to enter an administrative office". Actually Hurkov sitizens "Russian supporters" expelled Nazis from state institutes, because they don't want chaos in their Motherland.


----------



## rightwinger (Mar 1, 2014)

What Obama should do is let the EU handle it


----------



## VladVlad (Mar 1, 2014)

Trajan said:


> percysunshine said:
> 
> 
> > Trajan said:
> ...


It is easy. Obama not only supporting this coup, he organise it, to make another Syria with terrorists (neo Naciz) on tje Russian border to involve Russia to bloody war. Why? To make Russia weaker. But in the nearest future such approach of your government to the global politics can give to normal americans big problrems all over the world.


----------



## Trajan (Mar 1, 2014)

rightwinger said:


> What Obama should do is let the EU handle it



 I bet you said that right up until operation Operation Deliberate Force  

frankly, obama has no play, he has exhausted his ability  to influence events via Putin unless its to bend over again.


----------



## boedicca (Mar 1, 2014)

rightwinger said:


> What Obama should do is let the EU handle it




Yeah.  Cuz leading from behind lets him have more time for happy hours.


----------



## JakeStarkey (Mar 1, 2014)

Avatar4321 said:


> JakeStarkey said:
> 
> 
> > The Rabbi said:
> ...



Nonsense, Avatar, that is exactly what TR was implying.

There is no accurate analogy.

We are in a different world completely.  Ukraine has been in Russia's sphere of influence for centuries.

Geo-hubris to suggest that we can do anything more than economic sanctions, if that.


----------



## The Rabbi (Mar 1, 2014)

LoneLaugher said:


> The Rabbi said:
> 
> 
> > The Rabbi said:
> ...


That Obama would wag his tongue and Putin would laugh in his face.
I see from the news tonight I continue to be correct.  Obama warned of consequences.  Let's see what he does now that RUssian has sent troops.  Again, I think he will wag his finger some more and then call for a UN meeting to denounce the move.
Most.  Incompetent. President. Ever.


----------



## percysunshine (Mar 1, 2014)

JakeStarkey said:


> Avatar4321 said:
> 
> 
> > JakeStarkey said:
> ...



Oops.....third party geopolitics;

"The reference to this claim is the Küçük Kaynarca (Karlowitz I) signed 230 years ago. As per this agreement, signed by the Russian Tsarina Catherine II on April 19, 1783, the Crimean Peninsula was taken away from the dominion of the Ottomans and handed over to Russia. However, one of the most important provisions of this treaty was the debarment of independence for the Peninsula and outlawing its submission to a third party: Should any such attempt be made, then Crimea would automatically have to be returned to the sovereignty of Turkey."

http://english.alarabiya.net/en/vie...ey-caught-in-the-Russia-Crimea-snowstorm.html


----------



## usmcstinger (Mar 1, 2014)

Cutting back our military to Pre WWII levels only will encourage  Putin will do whatever he wants.  Our Commander and Chief makes only vail threats. 

The Russian Economy is not in great shape.  President Reagan made the the Soviets increase there military spending. Freezing their assets and getting NATO to reduce trade with them could very well put them in a "hurt locker" this time.


----------



## Indofred (Mar 1, 2014)

RetiredGySgt said:


> Armed men seize government building in Ukraine's Crimea-Interfax
> 
> Russia claims to be worried about Crimea. By supporting Russian separatists that seize the Buildings, if the Ukraine reacts as expected with force, the Russians can claim they must act to protect Russians.
> 
> We will see what Obama and Kerry do now. They both warned Russia not to violate the Ukraine's territory.



You realise there was a coup, don't you.
It could be claimed, the "separatists" are really loyalists, protecting their rights from coup leaders who removed the democratically elected government.

I thought the U.S. was pro democracy - you should be supporting Russia in this matter.


----------



## Kondor3 (Mar 1, 2014)

If our esteemed Muslim colleague from Indonesia wants us to back Russia, then I'm sure we're on the right track, in opposing Russian intervention in the Ukraine...


----------



## Avatar4321 (Mar 1, 2014)

JakeStarkey said:


> Avatar4321 said:
> 
> 
> > JakeStarkey said:
> ...



For being a completely different world, things seem to be happening exactly the same way.


----------



## Geaux4it (Mar 2, 2014)

You know its getting bad when CNN spends the day talking about Obama being a paper tiger

Good times

-Geaux


----------



## Indeependent (Mar 2, 2014)

Geaux4it said:


> You know its getting bad when CNN spends the day talking about Obama being a paper tiger
> 
> Good times
> 
> -Geaux



I guess CNN is as hungry for a war as any other news outlet.


----------



## Geaux4it (Mar 2, 2014)

Indeependent said:


> Geaux4it said:
> 
> 
> > You know its getting bad when CNN spends the day talking about Obama being a paper tiger
> ...



I see it differently.. They have been pointing out Obama's ineptness as it pertains to foreign policy. 

-Geaux


----------



## Animus (Mar 2, 2014)

I'll be the first person to say that Europe needs to settle it's own mess and that we don't have the $$$$ to fight another war, let alone a potential mass war. But man is Obama pissing me off here. He needs to stop issuing "stern warnings" that he has no intentions and/or means of enforcing. What's next, North Korea threatens to invade SK and he issues another "Red Line". Come on Obama, I'm all for diplomacy and even sanctions, but you're playing checkers while the rest of the world is playing chess.


----------



## Decus (Mar 2, 2014)

Friggin Yanukovych bled the Ukraine dry as one of the most corrupt politicians in history. This was a problem for Ukrainians who couldn't see a future for their country and the only option was to kick Yanukovych out. The US and EU were minor players. The real problem was the *massive corruption* and Yanukovych having bankrupted the Ukraine.

.


----------



## Decus (Mar 2, 2014)

I do believe that this is the EU's problem to fix and not the US. Part of this problem goes back to the creation of Kosovo and the creation of an independent territory without agreement from the sovereign nation it was drawn from. Russia in fact used Kosovo to justify its actions in Georgia and is now using the same excuse for the Crimea.
.


----------



## Eugene (Mar 2, 2014)

In fact this problem can be easyly and fairly solved by Russia if US and EU do not interfere.
Russian army in blue helmets with UN mandat can finish that political collapse with minimum victims. It will eliminate terroristic facist organisation Right Sector and organise (under EU&US monitoring) fair clear election and referendum.

But EU&US will never allow Russia to do that as they wish to tear Ukraine away from Russia and they know that the majority of people in Ukraine do not want to go to EU. So EU&US will never agree for such kind of risk, they will act for sure - war in Ukraine and blaming Russia.


----------



## Decus (Mar 2, 2014)

Eugene said:


> In fact this problem can be easyly and fairly solved by Russia if US and EU do not interfere.
> Russian army in blue helmets with UN mandat can finish that political collapse with minimum victims. It will eliminate terroristic facist organisation Right Sector and organise (under EU&US monitoring) fair clear election and referendum.
> 
> But EU&US will never allow Russia to do that as they wish to tear Ukraine away from Russia and they know that the majority of people in Ukraine do not want to go to EU. So EU&US will never agree for such kind of risk, they will act for sure - war in Ukraine and blaming Russia.



Too funny. Elections in the Ukraine on May 25th were announced a few days ago. Who is afraid of new elections? Certainly not Ukrainians.


----------



## JWBooth (Mar 2, 2014)

Decus said:


> Eugene said:
> 
> 
> > In fact this problem can be easyly and fairly solved by Russia if US and EU do not interfere.
> ...


Elections are meaningless when the results can be overturned by mob action.


----------



## Decus (Mar 2, 2014)

JWBooth said:


> Decus said:
> 
> 
> > Eugene said:
> ...



Mob rule was not the impetus behind the protests. Massive corruption was. The Ukraine has been drained of its wealth by Yankovych and faced the prospect of being indebted to the Russians. They had enough of the theft and didn't want to owe a loan shark. Seems normal.

.


----------



## Eugene (Mar 2, 2014)

Elections in May is nonsense!
Reasons are:
1. Ukraine today is separated and it is impossible to elect 1 candidate who would satisfy both sides.
2. Ukranian people do not feel themselves free to express their opinion.
3. Pro-western politics control almost everything and do not allow other opinion to be said on TV, written in newspapers...
4. South-Eastern regions of the country do not obbey to interim government.

First country should become calm and stabile evrywhere.
Than it should be federalised in 3 states so that each could regulate its own policy in both political and economical affairs (taxes, police, customs, budget).
Only after that it would be possible to talk about elections of real president and well-balanced government.


----------



## Decus (Mar 2, 2014)

Here is a Swedish economist's view of corruption under Yankovych's presidency:
_
"For the past four years Mr Yanukovich&#8217;s sole ambition has been to enrich his family and cronies. A reasonable estimate of *the family&#8217;s wealth is $12bn*." _

_"*Since 2010, government procurement has been infested with corruption*. Mr Yanukovich handed contracts to his family and cronies on ludicrously favourable terms, paying approximately twice the market price. Competitive public procurement must be introduced."_

Ukraine can now fix its economy ? if it moves fast - FT.com

What would we do in the US if our president emptied Fort Knox of its gold for his personal use? Would we protest???

.


----------



## Decus (Mar 2, 2014)

Eugene said:


> Elections in May is nonsense!
> Reasons are:
> 1. Ukraine today is separated and it is impossible to elect 1 candidate who would satisfy both sides.
> 2. Ukranian people do not feel themselves free to express their opinion.
> ...



I can understand that being pro-Russian leaves you with the difficult task of trying to defend Yanukovych's horribly corrupt regime. All you can do is try to spin the truth. I am sorry for you. 

.


----------



## Eugene (Mar 2, 2014)

Yanukovich has never been pro-russian. He just wasn't pro-western as ex-president Yuschenko.
Yanukovich always turned to one side for getting money there and to other to get money from another place.

I as ukranian am very happy that he is not president anymore but those who are sitting in Rada now are much worse.

What I want is wellness and stability for my country. But it is impossible if we move according to scenario suggested by US&EU.


----------



## Decus (Mar 2, 2014)

Eugene said:


> Yanukovich has never been pro-russian. He just wasn't pro-western as ex-president Yuschenko.
> Yanukovich always turned to one side for getting money there and to other to get money from another place.
> 
> I as ukranian am very happy that he is not president anymore but those who are sitting in Rada now are much worse.
> ...



I noticed Yanukovych flew to Cuba when fleeing the Ukraine. Yanukovych is definitely not an ally of the Kremlin. 

.


----------



## The Rabbi (Mar 2, 2014)

Eugene said:


> In fact this problem can be easyly and fairly solved by Russia if US and EU do not interfere.
> Russian army in blue helmets with UN mandat can finish that political collapse with minimum victims. It will eliminate terroristic facist organisation Right Sector and organise (under EU&US monitoring) fair clear election and referendum.
> 
> But EU&US will never allow Russia to do that as they wish to tear Ukraine away from Russia and they know that the majority of people in Ukraine do not want to go to EU. So EU&US will never agree for such kind of risk, they will act for sure - war in Ukraine and blaming Russia.



I see we have another brain dead poster on board.
Putin is in to shore up his ally and crush dissent.  That's what he does.  That's what his training as a KGB thug taught him.  Obama and Europe are gutless to stop him.


----------



## JakeStarkey (Mar 2, 2014)

percysunshine said:


> JakeStarkey said:
> 
> 
> > Avatar4321 said:
> ...



The independence since then has been prevented by Czar and Party Secretary until the break up of the USSR.

And I don't think anyone is going to give Crimea back to the Turks.

The fact is this: Russia will not give up the naval base.


----------



## Trajan (Mar 2, 2014)

obama has little to no options, sanctions? the EU will pretend to go along then balk, they need russias energy and Putin has used it as a stick before, so they know he will,  the world has  watched as obama has submarined sanctions in place against Iran for nothing in return. 

There is no military option for us or Nato,  even if we have said so, a blast from the past; 



V. Cooperation for a More Secure Europe

    NATO Allies will continue to support Ukrainian sovereignty and independence, territorial integrity, democratic development, economic prosperity and its status as a non-nuclear weapon state, and the principle of inviolability of frontiers, as key factors of stability and security in Central and Eastern Europe and in the continent as a whole.

    NATO and Ukraine will develop a crisis consultative mechanism to consult together whenever Ukraine perceives a direct threat to its territorial integrity, political independence, or security.


http://www.nato.int/cps/en/natolive/official_texts_25457.htm


----------



## Kondor3 (Mar 2, 2014)

Animus said:


> I'll be the first person to say that Europe needs to settle it's own mess and that we don't have the $$$$ to fight another war, let alone a potential mass war. But man is Obama pissing me off here. He needs to stop issuing "stern warnings" that he has no intentions and/or means of enforcing. What's next, North Korea threatens to invade SK and he issues another "Red Line". Come on Obama, I'm all for diplomacy and even sanctions, but you're playing checkers while the rest of the world is playing chess.


Ouch.


----------



## Kondor3 (Mar 2, 2014)

Eugene said:


> _Yanukovich has never been pro-russian. He just wasn't pro-western as ex-president Yuschenko. Yanukovich always turned to one side for getting money there and to other to get money from another place_...


Well, he's pro-Russian now, isn't he?... running to Russia for help, in an attempt to restore himself to political power, after The People kicked his nasty, corrupt ass out of office.



> "..._I as ukranian am very happy that he is not president anymore but those who are sitting in Rada now are much worse_..."


A country that cannot properly govern itself, and which cannot purge itself of corruption and destructive factions, is doomed to fail at some point. The Ukrainians seem to be in danger of allowing this to happen to their newly-reborn country.



> "..._What I want is wellness and stability for my country. But it is impossible if we move according to scenario suggested by US&EU._"


If you desire 'wellness and stability' for your country, and you are willing to do it under the heel of the Russian Federation, then, the words of our own Benjamin Franklin seem appropriate here...

_*"They who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
*_
Outside of those regions where Ethnic Russians are the majority percentage of the population, I am guessing that most of your countrymen are not willing to sell their souls to the Russian Federation and to give up their Liberty in trade for Wellness and Stability, on somebody else's terms.

But that's just a guess on my part.


----------



## percysunshine (Mar 2, 2014)

JakeStarkey said:


> percysunshine said:
> 
> 
> > JakeStarkey said:
> ...




The naval base is there by treaty. Kind of like US bases in Japan.

Think about that for a moment.


----------



## percysunshine (Mar 2, 2014)

The Rabbi said:


> Eugene said:
> 
> 
> > ...blah blah blah blah....
> ...



Is this a bad thing? I do not know the answer, but if I picture Obama growing a pair of balls on foreign policy, I see Healthcare.gov with nuclear weapons.

.


----------



## natstew (Mar 2, 2014)

I remember someone warning about it giving Russia control over Western Europe when the pipeline to ship natural gas across the Ukraine to Western Europe was proposed. I also remember the Libtards screaming him down and calling him a "Sir Galahad", and chasing boogymen. Looks like he was right and the Democrats, as usual, were wrong again.


----------



## Eugene (Mar 2, 2014)

Kondor3 said:


> Eugene said:
> 
> 
> > _Yanukovich has never been pro-russian. He just wasn't pro-western as ex-president Yuschenko. Yanukovich always turned to one side for getting money there and to other to get money from another place_...
> ...


He ran to Russia because that is the only country which will not let someone to kill him (getting him back to Ukraine now = to kill him). 
The same was done by Snowden as he knew that all other countries would give him to US. 
I'm in Russia now and I never met someone or never heard in mass media words that Yanukovich is good guy. He is heavily blamed and he deserves that. 
The only things Russia does - protects his life until he would be legally judged.

Tell me please how would american authorities act if hundred civilians armed with stones, fire bottles and sticks went to White House shouting "Obama go away!"
All of them would be arrested or shot (which is more likely!).
Why? Because they violate the law. 
Wasn't the same in Kiev?

But all western mass media pushed on Yanukovich not to do the same and it led to revolution. 

Now illegal government is ruling Ukraine and west is satisfied...

Imagine the situation vice versa - Russia organised revolution and set its politicians to Rada...



Kondor3 said:


> > "..._I as ukranian am very happy that he is not president anymore but those who are sitting in Rada now are much worse_..."
> 
> 
> A country that cannot properly govern itself, and which cannot purge itself of corruption and destructive factions, is doomed to fail at some point. The Ukrainians seem to be in danger of allowing this to happen to their newly-reborn country.


A country that cannot govern itself must be helped by us, right?
Corruption does exist in EU as well. There was a report regarding to this problem in Europarlament about a month ago. And what? 



Kondor3 said:


> > "..._What I want is wellness and stability for my country. But it is impossible if we move according to scenario suggested by US&EU._"
> 
> 
> If you desire 'wellness and stability' for your country, and you are willing to do it under the heel of the Russian Federation, then, the words of our own Benjamin Franklin seem appropriate here...
> ...


What do u know about Russia?
Why do u think it is always the wrong side?
Russia today is not a communist USSR, people there live quite in the same way as people in US or EU. 
Why living under the heel of US or EU is better?
Look what USA have done to people of Yugoslavia, Iraq, Lybia.... Look how "happy" people of Bulgaria, Romania, Greece became after 10 years of being a member of EU. 

Why joining EU is called integration and supposed to be free movement to wellness while joining to Eurasian union is called going under heel of Russia and is supposed to be a rebuilding of new terrible Russian Empire?

For me it looks like the USA and EU are afraid of economical growth of Russia and former soviet countries. And they do everything they can to show Russia as non-democratic country, deeply tyrannic where people are suffering every second. 
I just don't understand why Putin is so popular in Russia?



Kondor3 said:


> Outside of those regions where Ethnic Russians are the majority percentage of the population, I am guessing that most of your countrymen are not willing to sell their souls to the Russian Federation and to give up their Liberty in trade for Wellness and Stability, on somebody else's terms.
> 
> But that's just a guess on my part.


Ukraine and Russia is the same country divided about 150 years ago. Only 2 western regions were not a part of Russia in 19th century and earlier. 
But it doesn't matter. 
1/3 of population wants to go to Europe, 2/3 to Russia. But 1/3 is actively supported by US and EU. What should be done?
"Selling souls"...sounds very pathetic but let's talk about wellness of civilians. 
What kind of Liberty would people get if go to EU and lose if go to Eurasian union?


----------



## RetiredGySgt (Mar 2, 2014)

Eugene said:


> Kondor3 said:
> 
> 
> > Eugene said:
> ...



Only 24 percent speak Russian and less then that support Russia. Quit lying.


----------



## Kondor3 (Mar 2, 2014)

Eugene said:


> Kondor3 said:
> 
> 
> > Eugene said:
> ...


Oh, his life might very well have been in-danger had he remained in the Ukraine; I doubt that anybody is contesting that idea.

Then again, we need to ask ourselves WHY his life was in danger?

He has a long-standing criminal record and is reported to have wasted and stolen great sums of Ukrainian taxpayer money.

If true, I have no doubt that the Ukrainians (at least those who are not ethnic Russians) would have thrown him in jail, if not worse.



> "..._The same was done by Snowden as he knew that all other countries would give him to US_..."


You need to ask yourself why most other countries would have turned Snowden over to the US, but Russia would not.

Because Russia is such a champion of freedom?

Don't make me laugh.



> "..._I'm in Russia now and I never met someone or never heard in mass media words that Yanukovich is good guy. He is heavily blamed and he deserves that_..."


I, for one, have never said that the Russians think that Yanuk is a good guy.



> "..._The only things Russia does - protects his life until he would be legally judged_..."


More likely, the Russians will use Yanku as a puppet, for that part of the Ukraine which they seize for themselves, or, they will use him as the excuse for a broader invasion.



> "..._Tell me please how would american authorities act if hundred civilians armed with stones, fire bottles and sticks went to White House shouting "Obama go away!_..."


Last I looked, Obama has not stolen billions of dollars from the National Treasury for his own personal use, nor angered people sufficiently so that they took to the streets in protest, with thousands of Army and Police troops defecting to the side of the protestors. But we can certainly talk about that when such circumstances materialize.



> "..._All of them would be arrested or shot (which is more likely!). Why? Because they violate the law. Wasn't the same in Kiev?_..."


Unfortunately, that does not explain Army and Police troops in Kiev, going over to the side of the protesters, in their thousands.



> "..._But all western mass media pushed on Yanukovich not to do the same and it led to revolution_..."


Governments - and leaders - who have allowed corruption to become so widespread that the nation erupts in protests and riots - deserve to fall.



> "..._Now illegal government is ruling Ukraine and west is satisfied_..."


No.

Now, a replacement government is in-place in Ukraine, setting aside the corrupt former President.

A corrupt politician who ran to the Russians, calling on them to act against his own people.

The Norwegians were once ruled by someone like that, back in the 1940s.

His name was Vidkun Quisling.

We had someone who wanted to be like that himself.

We called ours Benedict Arnold.

Jesus called his Judas.



> "..._Imagine the situation vice versa - Russia organised revolution and set its politicians to Rada_...>


What's Rada - the *R*oyal *A*cademy of *D*ramatic *A*rts?



> "..._Corruption does exist in EU as well. There was a report regarding to this problem in Europarlament about a month ago. And what?_..."


Apparently, not bad enough to make people riot and protest and overthrow their government. Wake me up when that happens in the EU, OK? Until then...



> "..._What do u know about Russia?_..."


Enough to participate in this conversation.



> "..._Why do u think it is always the wrong side_?..."


I don't. It usually IS on the wrong side. Not always. But usually. As it is now.



> "..._Russia today is not a communist USSR, people there live quite in the same way as people in US or EU. Why living under the heel of US or EU is better_?..."


Because people who live in the US or the EU do not live under _anyone's_ heel.

But we can hardly expect understanding of such fact from those whose country spent 75 years forcing its political idealogy down the throats of its own people before the idiots in the Kremlin figured out that it wasn't going to work after all - and putting the rest of the world through 75 years of trouble before that happened.



> "..._Look what USA have done to people of Yugoslavia_..."


No... that was the citizens of Yogoslavia themselves... reacting badly after being under the Soviet Russian heel for 40 or 50 years.



> "..._Iraq_..."


We didn't go into Iraq to make things better for them.

We went into Iraq to kill their leaders and to cut off their military balls for a generation or two so that they couldn't cause trouble for a while. And then we left.



> "..._Lybia_..."


Another Soviet puppet who hung on for longer than anyone expected and who had gone psychotic in the meantime, and whose people finally decided it was time for him to go.



> "..._Look how 'happy' people of Bulgaria, Romania, Greece became after 10 years of being a member of EU_..."


Bulgaria and Romania have the disadvantage of having turned into shit-holes during 40-50 years of Soviet-Russian tyranny and they're still having difficulty in climbing out of the deep hole Russian dug for them.

Greece has nobody but itself to blame for its troubles, and is now paying the price, but, like most Western countries that are worth a damn, they will find their own answers soon enough, without needing Russian to invade them, to set things right.



> "..._Why joining EU is called integration and supposed to be free movement to wellness while joining to Eurasian union is called going under heel of Russia and is supposed to be a rebuilding of new terrible Russian Empire?_..."


Maybe because nobody trusts you any more, and haven't now, for many decades?



> "..._For me it looks like the USA and EU are afraid of economical growth of Russia and former soviet countries_..."


Except for the stranglehold you have on Natural Gas being piped to Europe, the European Union will kick your ass on the economic front any day of the week and twice on Sunday. They (and we) are far better at economics than you are. Afraid? Hardly. Although that's a rather comical thought.



> "..._And they do everything they can to show Russia as non-democratic country, deeply tyrannic where people are suffering every second_..."


They don't, actually. Most of the time, we tend to forget that you even exist, beyond a certain soft-and-fuzzy background awareness. You aren't well-integrated with The West and you have a long way to go before you can aspire to be a Global Economy player on a scale capable of competing with The West.



> "..._I just don't understand why Putin is so popular in Russia?_..."


The Russian peasant soul needs a strong hand... a Czar... a Commissar... a Politburo Chief... or similar authority figure?

Most of The West outgrew its need for Kings (as functioning rulers) long ago... real kings or king-like strong-men... even though a Western country now and then will 'relapse', quite noticeably... but that's largely behind us now.

You have yet to reach that level of political and social maturity.



> "..._Ukraine and Russia is the same country divided about 150 years ago. Only 2 western regions were not a part of Russia in 19th century and earlier_..."


No. Russia has been oppressing the Tartars and other native Ukrainians for a long time - many centuries - and only annexed the region in the 1780s. That annexation and assimilation has always been a very imperfect and hostile arrangement and required constant force to keep it from unraveling; witness the deportation of 250,000 Crimean Tartars in the 1940s.



> "..._1/3 of population wants to go to Europe, 2/3 to Russia_..."


I suggest you take a closer look at the demographics of the Ukraine.

Demographics of Ukraine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Somehow, I seriously doubt that 2/3 want to fall back under the Russian heel again.



> "..._What should be done_?..."


Leave the Ukraine alone. They have Ukrainian problems. Those problems should be solved by Ukrainians.



> "..._'Selling souls'...sounds very pathetic but let's talk about wellness of civilians. What kind of Liberty would people get if go to EU and lose if go to Eurasian union?_"


That is not the question.

The question is what are you doing in the Crimea, and why are you forcing your will upon the Ukrainians?

Between your large-scale thefts of farmlands and starving a million or more ethnic Ukrainians to death and your persecutions of Tartars and other ethnic Ukrainian native groups - and having spent 75 years under the Soviet heel - it comes as no surprise that most Ukrainians want nothing more to do with Russia than is absolutely necessary.

They don't like you, they're afraid of you, and they have good reason to be.

You say you're a Ukrainian.

If you are, than it is pretty damned obvious that you are an ethnic Russian, or living in a region heavily dominated by ethnic Russians, and are either a Russo-phile, or something closely akin to one.

It is entirely acceptable to demonstrate some measure of bias or prejudice or favor, towards one side or another.

But you, on the other hand, go much further than just demonstrating some measure of bias... you approach being a propaganda shill, which is a different kind of animal.

It is my hope that I am wrong in my initial assessment, but I have a sinking feeling that there is more accuracy than inaccuracy in that analysis.


----------



## jodylee (Mar 3, 2014)

RetiredGySgt said:


> Armed men seize government building in Ukraine's Crimea-Interfax
> 
> Russia claims to be worried about Crimea. By supporting Russian separatists that seize the Buildings, if the Ukraine reacts as expected with force, the Russians can claim they must act to protect Russians.
> 
> We will see what Obama and Kerry do now. They both warned Russia not to violate the Ukraine's territory.



Nazi's backed by the west and Ukrainian elite overthrew a democratically elected government, I think Russia's response is justified in light of this,
also considering the U.S's flouting of international law and national sovereignty in recent years, we all should know by now its all about who has the biggest guns not international agreements that matter


----------



## The Rabbi (Mar 3, 2014)

jodylee said:


> RetiredGySgt said:
> 
> 
> > Armed men seize government building in Ukraine's Crimea-Interfax
> ...


Another ignorant brain dead dunce yammering about things he doesnt understand.


----------



## montelatici (Mar 3, 2014)

_"You need to ask yourself why most other countries would have turned Snowden over to the US, but Russia would not.

Because Russia is such a champion of freedom?

Don't make me laugh."_

I don't approve of Russia using force (just as I didn't approve of the US using force in Iraq and Afghanistan) but, as far as Snowden, the countries that would extradite him to the U.S. are those under the heel of the U.S.  Disgraceful really, Snowden did the world a favor exposing Nazi like surveillance of the U.S.


----------



## MisterBeale (Mar 3, 2014)

The Rabbi said:


> jodylee said:
> 
> 
> > RetiredGySgt said:
> ...



Actually, that's a factual analysis of the situation.  How else would you characterize it?

You shouldn't trust MSM CFR propaganda.  It makes our oligarchical two party dictatorship look like the we're the good guys.  We have as much blood on our hands as the Russians.  

Always remember, political elites will be political elites.  It is common folk that are important.  They are the same where ever you go.  We are being manipulated the same as Russians, just like the Ukrainians.  All of the little people are manipulated into being violent for the corporate overlords.  All people should just refuse to take up arms or be violent against anyone else.  Because, in the end, it is the elites in control that will profit.

When the Ukrainian central government wanted to move closer to Russia?  That is what the majority of the people and the parliament wanted.  The AstroTurf funding by the US state department for this revolt was unconstitutional and lawless.  This would not have been tolerated and would have been crushed in any western democracy.   How some people can blindly trust MSM as they promote these Nazis is beyond me. . . . 

*Washington Orchestrated Protests Are Destabilizing Ukraine*
http://www.paulcraigroberts.org/2014/02/12/washington-orchestrated-protests-destabilizing-ukraine/


> The protests in the western Ukraine are organized by the CIA, the US State Department, and by Washington- and EU-financed Non-Governmental Organizations (NGOs) that work in conjunction with the CIA and State Department. The purpose of the protests is to overturn the decision by the independent government of Ukraine not to join the EU.
> 
> The US and EU were initially cooperating in the effort to destroy the independence of Ukraine and make it a subservient entity to the EU government in Brussels. For the EU
> government, the goal is to expand the EU. For Washington the purposes are to make
> ...



Regime Change in Kiev

Victoria Nuland Admits: US Has Invested $5 Billion In The Development of Ukrainian, "Democratic Institutions"
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article37599.htm



> US Assistant Secretary of State for Europe, Nuland said: Since the declaration of Ukrainian independence in 1991, the United States supported the Ukrainians in the development of democratic institutions and skills in promoting civil society and a good form of government - all that is necessary to achieve the objectives of Ukraines European. We have invested more than 5 billion dollars to help Ukraine to achieve these and other goals.  Nuland said the United States will continue to promote Ukraine to the future it deserves.



I wonder where all that money went?  CIA?  FBI?  Social Services?  lol  

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2y0y-JUsPTU]Victoria Nuland: Ukrainians Deserve For Respect From Their Government - YouTube[/ame]

US and EU Are Paying Ukrainian Rioters & Protesters

https://www.boilingfrogspost.com/2014/02/18/us-and-eu-are-paying-ukrainian-rioters-protesters/







> A number of confirmations have come in from readers that Washington is fueling the violent protests in Ukraine with our taxpayer dollars. Washington has no money for food stamps or to prevent home foreclosures, but it has plenty of money with which to subvert Ukraine.
> 
> One reader wrote: My wife, who is of Ukrainian nationality, has weekly contact to her parents and friends in Zhytomyr [NW Ukraine]. According to them, most protesters get an average payment of 200-300 grivna, corresponding to about 15-25 euro. As I additionally heard, one of the most active agencies and payment outlets on EU side is the German Konrad Adenauer Stiftung, being closely connected to the CDU, i.e. Mrs. Merkels party.
> 
> ...


----------



## MisterBeale (Mar 3, 2014)

I love that video, you can see the "Chevron" corporate logo IS RIGHT THERE!  They don't even try to hide what it is all about.  The government is a whore, the people are their slaves.  It is impossibly pathetic to those that have a brain.


----------



## Kondor3 (Mar 3, 2014)

MisterBeale said:


> "..._US and EU Are Paying Ukrainian Rioters & Protesters_..."


Horseshit...


----------



## Kondor3 (Mar 3, 2014)

Per BBC World News article dated March 3, 2014

BBC News - Ukraine: The military balance of power


----------



## nitroz (Mar 3, 2014)

Once they attack a NATO state, they will have all of NATO in their throats.

And they have the equipment/manpower already in Afghanistan.




You see, our military alone is BIGGER than Russia.

United States of America Military Strength





Imagine a dick going up putin's ass and poking out his mouth. Oh the head of it will be "NATO".


----------



## nitroz (Mar 3, 2014)

Kondor3 said:


> Per BBC World News article dated March 3, 2014
> 
> BBC News - Ukraine: The military balance of power



World Military Strength Comparison


----------



## Lucy9 (Mar 4, 2014)

The US will never risk a war with Russia... All of this is only politics. It's sad but nobody can stop Putin.


----------



## Kondor3 (Mar 4, 2014)

Lucy9 said:


> _The US will never risk a war with Russia... All of this is only politics. It's sad but *nobody can stop Putin*._


The same has been said of many dictators and strong-men who seemed to hold all the cards in a bully-boy confrontation, but the truth is, such folk can, indeed, be stopped.

Back in the day when Britain and France still had the backbone and muscle to enforce their will, they kicked the Russians' asses in the Crimea, in the Russians' own back yard.

But after having bled themselves white in two world wars and bankrupted themselves and being obliged to let go of their empires, they are mere shadows of their former selves and unable and unwilling to protect their own backyards like this again.

Ditto for the Germans, even in collaboration with Britain and France; they just haven't got the nerve for that kind of opposition any longer.

Which means we aren't going to rachet-up the military pressure on our own, unless an existing or solid-prospective member of NATO or the EU is attacked, beyond the Ukraine.

Poland is nervous, and getting pissed. Ditto for Turkey, who scrambled a bunch of F-16s earlier today to nudge-back a Russian air recon sortie close to their shores; with the Russians probably looking to gather real-time intelligence on Turkish Black Sea shore activity and the Bosporus and the Dardanelles.

And, even though they're formidable enough even in a weakened condition, let's not forget that they're just now beginning new Naval and Air build-outs and still scraping the rust and barnacles off of many of their assets and that they're still dealing largely with a Conscript Army rather than a Volunteer one. They're tough. They're bad-asses. But they're human, and vulnerable, and not as strong as everyone is worried about.

But, beyond needing a solid casus belli and the right timing and resorting to counter-force only as last resort...

It takes balls to stand up to a strong man.

It's not the military assets that are lacking in this instance.

In this case... in all probability, what's missing here is 'balls'.

There may come a day, in the not-too-distant future, when the Europeans wish they had made a better showing in such matters, in looking back at this particular incident.

But they won't... I really don't think they have it in 'em any longer... they bled themselves white in two world wars within the past century and they've degenerated into a collection of largely ignore-able second- and third-rate powers.


----------



## Trajan (Mar 4, 2014)

there will be no military invasion by nato,  us or anyone. please folks. 

the only answer is soft power, the use of financial tools and perhaps energy, but because we have a admin. that is overtly hostile, nonsensical stance vis a vis fossil fuels, the mothers milk of the Russian economy, we are not and will not be in position to exploit that weakness.


----------



## gipper (Feb 24, 2015)

Yeah the USA needs another war where it has no interest and has not been attacked....makes sense to the senseless and the power elite who love war, because it enriches and empowers them.

The USA like Rome, has become a welfare/warfare state...and like Rome, if it continues down this road, will fail catastrophically.  

Who will stop the elites from destroying the nation?


----------



## Geaux4it (Feb 24, 2015)

Peace through strength. No appeasement here

-Geaux


----------



## Camp (Feb 24, 2015)

Putin is using the threat of nuclear war as a threat and means of blackmail and extortion. He has brainwashed the masses in Russia to support his notion that Russia is under attack and they need a strong and tough leader. The power elite knows better. The educated and the wealthy can see where his ego trip is taking them. They are loosing billions and their lives and the lives of their children are being put in danger.


----------



## HenryBHough (Feb 24, 2015)

Churlish to even post the question:

*"Russian provocation, lets see what Obama does if Russia move"*

We all know the answer and it's quite simple.

Obama would pick up his club(s) and rush off to the golf course!


----------



## JWBooth (Feb 24, 2015)

Camp said:


> Putin is using the threat of nuclear war as a threat and means of blackmail and extortion. He has brainwashed the masses in Russia to support his notion that Russia is under attack and they need a strong and tough leader. The power elite knows better. The educated and the wealthy can see where his ego trip is taking them. They are loosing billions and their lives and the lives of their children are being put in danger.


hysteric, hyperbolic nonsense


----------



## guno (Feb 24, 2015)

RetiredGySgt said:


> The2ndAmendment said:
> 
> 
> > Here's my opinion.
> ...




you sound paranoid


----------



## hipeter924 (Feb 25, 2015)

RetiredGySgt said:


> Matthew said:
> 
> 
> > So you want us to bomb and invade Russia...wow, but you don't want us investing in our own country. weird.
> ...


For the moment, if the rebels get all they want and more, then here are the new borders of Ukraine:


----------



## Camp (Feb 25, 2015)

JWBooth said:


> Camp said:
> 
> 
> > Putin is using the threat of nuclear war as a threat and means of blackmail and extortion. He has brainwashed the masses in Russia to support his notion that Russia is under attack and they need a strong and tough leader. The power elite knows better. The educated and the wealthy can see where his ego trip is taking them. They are loosing billions and their lives and the lives of their children are being put in danger.
> ...


Maybe, and maybe not.

kyivpost.com/opinion/op-ed/alexei-bayer-putins-nuclear-blackmail.html

independent.ie/life/no-more-illusions-putins-nuclear-option-30999741.html


----------



## C_Clayton_Jones (Feb 25, 2015)

"Russian provocation, lets see what Obama does if Russia moves"

And what exactly should the president 'do.'

Start World War III with Russia.

This illustrates the comprehensive stupidity of the OP and most others on the partisan right.


----------

