# Jason Kidd Retire: Where does he rank All-Time?



## GHook93

I say there are 5 that are unarguably better than Kidd:
Magic - No explanation necessary ("NEN")
Big O - Yes he came from a less talented era (which the the same reason I drop Russel out of the top center discussion because he would get rapped by the bigger centers like Shaq, Wilt, Robinson, Hakeem), but the Big O was huge at 6-5 and would have dominated in any era.
Stockton - All-time assist leader, lifetime 170 club member (means high percentage shooter from 3pt line, all over the court and free throw) and all time steal leader.
Isiah Thomas - Great floor leader and transformed the PG position to scoring spot, although he was still a great distributor.
Gary Payton - Best defensive PG of all time, he could all set up his teammates and score when they needed him to.

Then you have the oldies, who many put ahead of him, but I think their success had more to do with a smaller, less athletic and slower league:
Walt Frazier, Bob Cousy, Lenny Wilkens

Then you have who I think Kidd definitely out shined:
Steve Nash and Tiny Archibald.

My Top 10:
Magic
Stockton
Big O
Thomas
Payton
Kidd
Nash
Frazier
Archibald
Wilkens


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## TruthSeeker56

GHook93 said:


> I say there are 5 that are unarguably better than Kidd:
> Magic - No explanation necessary ("NEN")
> Big O - Yes he came from a less talented era (which the the same reason I drop Russel out of the top center discussion because he would get rapped by the bigger centers like Shaq, Wilt, Robinson, Hakeem), but the Big O was huge at 6-5 and would have dominated in any era.
> Stockton - All-time assist leader, lifetime 170 club member (means high percentage shooter from 3pt line, all over the court and free throw) and all time steal leader.
> Isiah Thomas - Great floor leader and transformed the PG position to scoring spot, although he was still a great distributor.
> Gary Payton - Best defensive PG of all time, he could all set up his teammates and score when they needed him to.
> 
> Then you have the oldies, who many put ahead of him, but I think their success had more to do with a smaller, less athletic and slower league:
> Walt Frazier, Bob Cousy, Lenny Wilkens
> 
> Then you have who I think Kidd definitely out shined:
> Steve Nash and Tiny Archibald.
> 
> My Top 10:
> Magic
> Stockton
> Big O
> Thomas
> Payton
> Kidd
> Nash
> Frazier
> Archibald
> Wilkens



Kidd is one of the all-time prolific WIFE-BEATERS, for sure.

I always thought Kidd was overrated. I'd take Nash over Kidd, in a heartbeat. I'll give Kidd the nod over Archibald, and that's it.

He played a long time, based on his hype.


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## GHook93

TruthSeeker56 said:


> GHook93 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I say there are 5 that are unarguably better than Kidd:
> Magic - No explanation necessary ("NEN")
> Big O - Yes he came from a less talented era (which the the same reason I drop Russel out of the top center discussion because he would get rapped by the bigger centers like Shaq, Wilt, Robinson, Hakeem), but the Big O was huge at 6-5 and would have dominated in any era.
> Stockton - All-time assist leader, lifetime 170 club member (means high percentage shooter from 3pt line, all over the court and free throw) and all time steal leader.
> Isiah Thomas - Great floor leader and transformed the PG position to scoring spot, although he was still a great distributor.
> Gary Payton - Best defensive PG of all time, he could all set up his teammates and score when they needed him to.
> 
> Then you have the oldies, who many put ahead of him, but I think their success had more to do with a smaller, less athletic and slower league:
> Walt Frazier, Bob Cousy, Lenny Wilkens
> 
> Then you have who I think Kidd definitely out shined:
> Steve Nash and Tiny Archibald.
> 
> My Top 10:
> Magic
> Stockton
> Big O
> Thomas
> Payton
> Kidd
> Nash
> Frazier
> Archibald
> Wilkens
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Kidd is one of the all-time prolific WIFE-BEATERS, for sure.
> 
> I always thought Kidd was overrated. I'd take Nash over Kidd, in a heartbeat. I'll give Kidd the nod over Archibald, and that's it.
> 
> He played a long time, based on his hype.
Click to expand...


Nash was a 10 fold better shooter and they were about equal in distributing the ball and as a floor leader. Nash was a prolific poor defender! Defense has to be taken into account. Kidd was ALWAYS a top defender at the position. 

It's a tough call, but I think Kidd takes him by a little bit. 

The wife-beating comment was predictable, but he deserves attacked on that even today. Beating one's wife is a coward's act!


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## High_Gravity

Jason Kidd was one of my favorite players I remember watching him when I was like 12 and 13, he is one of the best passers the game has ever seen and his work ethic is amazing.


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## TheGreatGatsby

1. Stockton
2. Magic
3. Parker
4. Rondo
5. Kidd
6. Robertson
7. Cousy
8. Archibald
9. KJ
10. Price

Honorable Mention: Payton, Billups, Paul, DJ, Mark Jackson, Bibby, White Chocolate, Rose


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## Billo_Really

TheGreatGatsby said:


> 1. Stockton
> 2. Magic
> 3. Parker
> 4. Rondo
> 5. Kidd
> 6. Robertson
> 7. Cousy
> 8. Archibald
> 9. KJ
> 10. Price
> 
> Honorable Mention: Payton, Billups, Paul, DJ, Mark Jackson, Bibby, White Chocolate, Rose


I can name 50 players better than Jason Kidd.


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## Billo_Really

TheGreatGatsby said:


> 1. Stockton
> 2. Magic
> 3. Parker
> 4. Rondo
> 5. Kidd
> 6. Robertson
> 7. Cousy
> 8. Archibald
> 9. KJ
> 10. Price
> 
> Honorable Mention: Payton, Billups, Paul, DJ, Mark Jackson, Bibby, White Chocolate, Rose


I guess you never saw Gus Williams?


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## Billo_Really

TheGreatGatsby said:


> 1. Stockton
> 2. Magic
> 3. Parker
> 4. Rondo
> 5. Kidd
> 6. Robertson
> 7. Cousy
> 8. Archibald
> 9. KJ
> 10. Price
> 
> Honorable Mention: Payton, Billups, Paul, DJ, Mark Jackson, Bibby, White Chocolate, Rose


You're putting Kidd ahead of the Big O?

That shows you don't know shit about basketball!


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## TheGreatGatsby

Billo_Really said:


> TheGreatGatsby said:
> 
> 
> 
> 1. Stockton
> 2. Magic
> 3. Parker
> 4. Rondo
> 5. Kidd
> 6. Robertson
> 7. Cousy
> 8. Archibald
> 9. KJ
> 10. Price
> 
> Honorable Mention: Payton, Billups, Paul, DJ, Mark Jackson, Bibby, White Chocolate, Rose
> 
> 
> 
> I can name 50 players better than Jason Kidd.
Click to expand...


That's fine. But that's a PG list.


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## TheGreatGatsby

Billo_Really said:


> TheGreatGatsby said:
> 
> 
> 
> 1. Stockton
> 2. Magic
> 3. Parker
> 4. Rondo
> 5. Kidd
> 6. Robertson
> 7. Cousy
> 8. Archibald
> 9. KJ
> 10. Price
> 
> Honorable Mention: Payton, Billups, Paul, DJ, Mark Jackson, Bibby, White Chocolate, Rose
> 
> 
> 
> You're putting Kidd ahead of the Big O?
> 
> That shows you don't know shit about basketball!
Click to expand...


I know plenty about basketball. Big O would was really small o. He was a ball hog who got beat year after year. And he was really a SG playing PG.


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## Billo_Really

TheGreatGatsby said:


> I know plenty about basketball. Big O would was really small o. He was a ball hog who got beat year after year. And he was really a SG playing PG.


He was 6'-5" and the only player to average triple-doubles for an entire season.

YOU ARE TALKING BLASPHEMY!


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## Billo_Really

TheGreatGatsby said:


> That's fine. But that's a PG list.


Why no Gus Williams?  Or Pete Maravich?


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## TheGreatGatsby

Billo_Really said:


> TheGreatGatsby said:
> 
> 
> 
> I know plenty about basketball. Big O would was really small o. He was a ball hog who got beat year after year. And he was really a SG playing PG.
> 
> 
> 
> He was 6'-5" and the only player to average triple-doubles for an entire season.
> 
> YOU ARE TALKING BLASPHEMY!
Click to expand...


Big fucking deal. Wilt averaged like 50 and 30 one season back then. There's no way in hell he'd do that in today's league. Same shit applies to Robertson.


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## Billo_Really

What about Dave Bing?


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## Billo_Really

TheGreatGatsby said:


> Big fucking deal. Wilt averaged like 50 and 30 one season back then. There's no way in hell he'd do that in today's league. Same shit applies to Robertson.


Bullshit!  They'd do the same thing today as they did back then.


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## Billo_Really

What about Black Jesus?


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## TheGreatGatsby

Billo_Really said:


> TheGreatGatsby said:
> 
> 
> 
> Big fucking deal. Wilt averaged like 50 and 30 one season back then. There's no way in hell he'd do that in today's league. Same shit applies to Robertson.
> 
> 
> 
> Bullshit!  They'd do the same thing today as they did back then.
Click to expand...


Not a chance in hell. Shaq and Jordan came nowhere close to those numbers and they are certainly about the same if not more gifted.


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## Billo_Really

TheGreatGatsby said:


> Not a chance in hell. Shaq and Jordan came nowhere close to those numbers and they are certainly about the same if not more gifted.


Wilt would throw Shaq around like a rag doll and there is no way Jordan could stop O.


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## TheGreatGatsby

Billo_Really said:


> TheGreatGatsby said:
> 
> 
> 
> Not a chance in hell. Shaq and Jordan came nowhere close to those numbers and they are certainly about the same if not more gifted.
> 
> 
> 
> Wilt would throw Shaq around like a rag doll and there is no way Jordan could stop O.
Click to expand...


Shaq has 70 pounds on Wilt. I'll say that Wilt was athletically gifted ahead of his time; but D Robinson would match-up fine with him too.

And Jordan would jump over Robertson. I mean, if you want to argue that Robertson's still better than Jordan than that's fine. And there are plenty of old timers that would have been all stars in today's NBA. But clearly, the overall athleticism has improved.


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## Billo_Really

TheGreatGatsby said:


> Shaq has 70 pounds on Wilt. I'll say that Wilt was athletically gifted ahead of his time; but D Robinson would match-up fine with him too.
> 
> And Jordan would jump over Robertson. I mean, if you want to argue that Robertson's still better than Jordan than that's fine. And there are plenty of old timers that would have been all stars in today's NBA. But clearly, the overall athleticism has improved.


Wilt was the strongest player the NBA has ever seen.  There has never been anyone that strong before or since.

And if Oscar is not that hot, how come no one's been able to even come close to what he did (average triple-doubles for an entire season)?

How come you won't answer the question about *Black Jesus*?


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## TheGreatGatsby

Billo_Really said:


> TheGreatGatsby said:
> 
> 
> 
> Shaq has 70 pounds on Wilt. I'll say that Wilt was athletically gifted ahead of his time; but D Robinson would match-up fine with him too.
> 
> And Jordan would jump over Robertson. I mean, if you want to argue that Robertson's still better than Jordan than that's fine. And there are plenty of old timers that would have been all stars in today's NBA. But clearly, the overall athleticism has improved.
> 
> 
> 
> Wilt was the strongest player the NBA has ever seen.  There has never been anyone that strong before or since.
> 
> And if Oscar is not that hot, how come no one's been able to even come close to what he did (average triple-doubles for an entire season)?
> 
> How come you won't answer the question about *Black Jesus*?
Click to expand...


A better question is; if they were that great then how come Russell constantly handed them their asses? 

BTW, Archibald had a 34 pt, 11 plus assist season in the 70's. I'm not making the case that he was better than Magic though. Clearly, the stat baselines changed through the NBA eras.


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## High_Gravity

Billo_Really said:


> What about Black Jesus?



Ray Allen?


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## High_Gravity

Billo_Really said:


> TheGreatGatsby said:
> 
> 
> 
> Not a chance in hell. Shaq and Jordan came nowhere close to those numbers and they are certainly about the same if not more gifted.
> 
> 
> 
> Wilt would throw Shaq around like a rag doll and there is no way Jordan could stop O.
Click to expand...


Throw Shaq around like a rag doll? I can't believe that.


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## Mad Scientist

Jason Kidd sure did a good job putting a rubber ball into a hoop didn't he?


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## High_Gravity

American Communist said:


> Jason Kidd sure did a good job putting a rubber ball into a hoop didn't he?



Not really, he was better at passing it.


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## Billo_Really

High_Gravity said:


> Billo_Really said:
> 
> 
> 
> What about Black Jesus?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ray Allen?
Click to expand...

He was so good on the streets of New York, they called him "Black Jesus".

Earl (the Pearl) Monroe.


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## Billo_Really

High_Gravity said:


> Throw Shaq around like a rag doll? I can't believe that.


You better believe it!

Why?

In the words of my father, _*"Because I said so!"*_


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## Billo_Really

TheGreatGatsby said:


> A better question is; if they were that great then how come Russell constantly handed them their asses?
> 
> BTW, Archibald had a 34 pt, 11 plus assist season in the 70's. I'm not making the case that he was better than Magic though. Clearly, the stat baselines changed through the NBA eras.


In '67, Wilt spanked Russell in 5 games.


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## High_Gravity

Billo_Really said:


> High_Gravity said:
> 
> 
> 
> Throw Shaq around like a rag doll? I can't believe that.
> 
> 
> 
> You better believe it!
> 
> Why?
> 
> In the words of my father, _*"Because I said so!"*_
Click to expand...


Dude Shaq was a behemoth, maybe Wilt could have out played him but I don't see Shaq getting shoved around by any one.


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## GHook93

TheGreatGatsby said:


> 1. Stockton
> 2. Magic
> 3. Parker
> 4. Rondo
> 5. Kidd
> 6. Robertson
> 7. Cousy
> 8. Archibald
> 9. KJ
> 10. Price
> 
> Honorable Mention: Payton, Billups, Paul, DJ, Mark Jackson, Bibby, White Chocolate, Rose



You can't be serious! Magic is the indisputable #1. The man was awesome and could play every position. He is #2-4 overall ever. Rondo and Parker are not even 3rd and 4th best now-a-days. The Big O was 6'5 and the only person in history to average a triple double. White Chocolate was flash but no fare! Where is Isiah Thomas?


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## GHook93

TheGreatGatsby said:


> Billo_Really said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> TheGreatGatsby said:
> 
> 
> 
> 1. Stockton
> 2. Magic
> 3. Parker
> 4. Rondo
> 5. Kidd
> 6. Robertson
> 7. Cousy
> 8. Archibald
> 9. KJ
> 10. Price
> 
> Honorable Mention: Payton, Billups, Paul, DJ, Mark Jackson, Bibby, White Chocolate, Rose
> 
> 
> 
> You're putting Kidd ahead of the Big O?
> 
> That shows you don't know shit about basketball!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I know plenty about basketball. Big O would was really small o. He was a ball hog who got beat year after year. And he was really a SG playing PG.
Click to expand...


Um, he was a 7x assist leader and average just under 10 assist per game for his CAREER! Sorry Charlie, but a guy who averages that many assists CANNOT be a ball hog!


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## GHook93

TheGreatGatsby said:


> Billo_Really said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> TheGreatGatsby said:
> 
> 
> 
> Big fucking deal. Wilt averaged like 50 and 30 one season back then. There's no way in hell he'd do that in today's league. Same shit applies to Robertson.
> 
> 
> 
> Bullshit!  They'd do the same thing today as they did back then.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Not a chance in hell. Shaq and Jordan came nowhere close to those numbers and they are certainly about the same if not more gifted.
Click to expand...


MJ average more PPG than Wilt. Wilt is an exception to the rule. He was a giant amongst men. He was a strong 7 footer getting covered by 6'8-6'9 guys. However, the Big O was 6'5 and that is still big for PG! Some oldtimers would dominate today and I think Wilt and the Big O fit that category. I think Russel and Cousy don't!


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## GHook93

Billo_Really said:


> TheGreatGatsby said:
> 
> 
> 
> Not a chance in hell. Shaq and Jordan came nowhere close to those numbers and they are certainly about the same if not more gifted.
> 
> 
> 
> Wilt would throw Shaq around like a rag doll and there is no way Jordan could stop O.
Click to expand...


Come on, Wilt was good, but he won't be tossing Shaq around. They would be good competition. Wilt, Hakeem, Shaq and Kareem are the four best centers regardless of the era!  

MJ would smoke the Big O!


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## GHook93

High_Gravity said:


> American Communist said:
> 
> 
> 
> Jason Kidd sure did a good job putting a rubber ball into a hoop didn't he?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Not really, he was better at passing it.
Click to expand...


Shows how much a commie knows about basketball huh HG!


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## GHook93

Billo_Really said:


> TheGreatGatsby said:
> 
> 
> 
> Shaq has 70 pounds on Wilt. I'll say that Wilt was athletically gifted ahead of his time; but D Robinson would match-up fine with him too.
> 
> And Jordan would jump over Robertson. I mean, if you want to argue that Robertson's still better than Jordan than that's fine. And there are plenty of old timers that would have been all stars in today's NBA. But clearly, the overall athleticism has improved.
> 
> 
> 
> Wilt was the strongest player the NBA has ever seen.  There has never been anyone that strong before or since.
> 
> And if Oscar is not that hot, how come no one's been able to even come close to what he did (average triple-doubles for an entire season)?
> 
> How come you won't answer the question about *Black Jesus*?
Click to expand...


Earl the Pearl, he wasn't a PG, correct? What about him?


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## High_Gravity

GHook93 said:


> High_Gravity said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> American Communist said:
> 
> 
> 
> Jason Kidd sure did a good job putting a rubber ball into a hoop didn't he?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Not really, he was better at passing it.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Shows how much a commie knows about basketball huh HG!
Click to expand...


Hehe yeah.


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## TheGreatGatsby

GHook93 said:


> TheGreatGatsby said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Billo_Really said:
> 
> 
> 
> You're putting Kidd ahead of the Big O?
> 
> That shows you don't know shit about basketball!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I know plenty about basketball. Big O would was really small o. He was a ball hog who got beat year after year. And he was really a SG playing PG.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Um, he was a 7x assist leader and average just under 10 assist per game for his CAREER! Sorry Charlie, but a guy who averages that many assists CANNOT be a ball hog!
Click to expand...


Robertson most certainly was a ball hog. He averaged more than 22 shots four times in his career. That's an insane amount of shots for a PG. Russell Westbrook is probably the most criticized PG today for overshooting and his FGAs for the last three years are 17.0, 19.2 and 18.7.

And the reason Robertson got those 10 assists per game is because even he often had to pass out of the double and triple teams and teams schemed defenses after 19 seconds of dribbling all over the court. That's not to say he wasn't a good passer. But Kobe's a good passer. That doesn't make him an unselfish player.


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## TheGreatGatsby

GHook93 said:


> TheGreatGatsby said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Billo_Really said:
> 
> 
> 
> Bullshit!  They'd do the same thing today as they did back then.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Not a chance in hell. Shaq and Jordan came nowhere close to those numbers and they are certainly about the same if not more gifted.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> MJ average more PPG than Wilt. Wilt is an exception to the rule. He was a giant amongst men. He was a strong 7 footer getting covered by 6'8-6'9 guys. However, the Big O was 6'5 and that is still big for PG! Some oldtimers would dominate today and I think Wilt and the Big O fit that category. I think Russel and Cousy don't!
Click to expand...


Have you seen Russell's career averages head to head against Wilt? You should probably rethink that analysis. 

Cousy was great in his era and the C's would not have been the dynasty they were without him. That's why the fans gave him a standing O for like 20 minutes when he retired. He had great quickness and passing skills and would definitely be an all-star PG in the league today. He'd also be a better shooter with the improved ball/rims.


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## TheGreatGatsby

GHook93 said:


> Billo_Really said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> TheGreatGatsby said:
> 
> 
> 
> Not a chance in hell. Shaq and Jordan came nowhere close to those numbers and they are certainly about the same if not more gifted.
> 
> 
> 
> Wilt would throw Shaq around like a rag doll and there is no way Jordan could stop O.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Come on, Wilt was good, but he won't be tossing Shaq around. They would be good competition. Wilt, Hakeem, Shaq and Kareem are the four best centers regardless of the era!
> 
> MJ would smoke the Big O!
Click to expand...


Nobody would toss around prime Shaq or old Shaq. He's easily the most massive player to ever play the game. But, I figured he was just talking for effect.

I don't think MJ would smoke Oscar. I don't think Oscar was not a great talent. I was arguing his value as a point guard. Oscar would have made a great shooting guard in today's game b/c he mastered the mid range game (and much earlier in his career than Jordan did). He'd have been able to come off screens and pop shots. Oscar is basically an immensely better version of Dwyane Wade.


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## TheGreatGatsby

Oscar Robertson's days at Cincinatti:

60-61 Cincy - 33-46
61-62 Cincy - 43-37
62-63 Cincy - 42-38
63-64 Cincy - 55-25
64-65 Cincy - 48-34
65-66 Cincy - 45-35
66-67 Cincy - 39-42
67-68 Cincy - 39-43
68-69 Cincy - 41-41
69-70 Cincy - 36-46

Why are the records mediocre? Because playing one versus five doesn't work. Countless players have proven that. Robertson spent an entire decade proving that.


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## Billo_Really

GHook93 said:


> TheGreatGatsby said:
> 
> 
> 
> 1. Stockton
> 2. Magic
> 3. Parker
> 4. Rondo
> 5. Kidd
> 6. Robertson
> 7. Cousy
> 8. Archibald
> 9. KJ
> 10. Price
> 
> Honorable Mention: Payton, Billups, Paul, DJ, Mark Jackson, Bibby, White Chocolate, Rose
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You can't be serious! Magic is the indisputable #1. The man was awesome and could play every position. He is #2-4 overall ever. Rondo and Parker are not even 3rd and 4th best now-a-days. The Big O was 6'5 and the only person in history to average a triple double. White Chocolate was flash but no fare! Where is Isiah Thomas?
Click to expand...

Where's Isiah?  Where's Pistol Pete?  Where's Gus Williams?


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## TheGreatGatsby

Billo_Really said:


> GHook93 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> TheGreatGatsby said:
> 
> 
> 
> 1. Stockton
> 2. Magic
> 3. Parker
> 4. Rondo
> 5. Kidd
> 6. Robertson
> 7. Cousy
> 8. Archibald
> 9. KJ
> 10. Price
> 
> Honorable Mention: Payton, Billups, Paul, DJ, Mark Jackson, Bibby, White Chocolate, Rose
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You can't be serious! Magic is the indisputable #1. The man was awesome and could play every position. He is #2-4 overall ever. Rondo and Parker are not even 3rd and 4th best now-a-days. The Big O was 6'5 and the only person in history to average a triple double. White Chocolate was flash but no fare! Where is Isiah Thomas?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Where's Isiah?  Where's Pistol Pete?  Where's Gus Williams?
Click to expand...


I considered Pistol more SG. But if he played more PG in his day then he would probably be right up there with Stockton and Magic.

Thomas was an oversight. He would be worthy to be on the list.

Your infatuation with Gus Williams is funny.


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## Billo_Really

TheGreatGatsby said:


> Your infatuation with Gus Williams is funny.



You ever seen him play?


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## TheGreatGatsby

Billo_Really said:


> TheGreatGatsby said:
> 
> 
> 
> Your infatuation with Gus Williams is funny.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You ever seen him play?
Click to expand...


Nope.


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## Billo_Really

TheGreatGatsby said:


> Billo_Really said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> TheGreatGatsby said:
> 
> 
> 
> Your infatuation with Gus Williams is funny.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You ever seen him play?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Nope.
Click to expand...

Then shut-up!


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## TheGreatGatsby

Billo_Really said:


> TheGreatGatsby said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Billo_Really said:
> 
> 
> 
> You ever seen him play?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Nope.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Then shut-up!
Click to expand...


Nah. You're the only one I ever heard drone on about him (and he didn't play much before my time). I checked his stats, nothing special either. Plenty of PGs have done what he's done.


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## Billo_Really

TheGreatGatsby said:


> Nah. You're the only one I ever heard drone on about him (and he didn't play much before my time). I checked his stats, nothing special either. Plenty of PGs have done what he's done.


He played on one of the best backcourts in history and was completely unstoppable in crunch time.


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## TheGreatGatsby

Billo_Really said:


> TheGreatGatsby said:
> 
> 
> 
> Nah. You're the only one I ever heard drone on about him (and he didn't play much before my time). I checked his stats, nothing special either. Plenty of PGs have done what he's done.
> 
> 
> 
> He played on one of the best backcourts in history and was completely unstoppable in crunch time.
Click to expand...


I'm sure he was good in his time. But he is not a top ten PG of all-time.


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## JoeBlam

We watched Jason Kidd here in Phoenix long enough....Colangelo watched the last game of his last season here and decided the Suns were BORING with Kidd at the PG.  He was a terrible shooter but a terrific ball-handler and rebounder for a 6'4" guard.  Is he HOF worthy?  I have no idea but he isn't anywhere near my top........40 point guards.


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## TheGreatGatsby

JoeBlam said:


> We watched Jason Kidd here in Phoenix long enough....Colangelo watched the last game of his last season here and decided the Suns were BORING with Kidd at the PG.  He was a terrible shooter but a terrific ball-handler and rebounder for a 6'4" guard.  Is he HOF worthy?  I have no idea but he isn't anywhere near my top........40 point guards.



Suns were rebuilding and they rightfully didn't want to pay him b/c he was a pass first PG and a run and gun player and that did not suit their personnel.

Kidd was never a scorer (though he did learn to knock down 3's). However, he is one of the best passers and in his prime, one of the best players ever at pushing the tempo of a game. My C's would have been in the 02 Finals were it not for that. He was good enough to be the starting PG for a championship team when he was past his prime too.

I think your points are valid. He's a sub-par shooter. So is Rondo and yet he is arguably the best PG in the league. PG is a position in which a player doesn't have to be a good shooter to make a great impact. In fact, Magic wasn't a good shooter beyond 17 feet til later in his career.


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## Billo_Really

TheGreatGatsby said:


> I'm sure he was good in his time. But he is not a top ten PG of all-time.


If you ever saw him play, you wouldn't be saying that.

He was the Tony Parker of his day.


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## TheGreatGatsby

Billo_Really said:


> TheGreatGatsby said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm sure he was good in his time. But he is not a top ten PG of all-time.
> 
> 
> 
> If you ever saw him play, you wouldn't be saying that.
> 
> He was the Tony Parker of his day.
Click to expand...


No he's not. I did go watch some clips on YT. Sorry brah. You have a man crush. That's all.


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## Billo_Really

TheGreatGatsby said:


> No he's not. I did go watch some clips on YT. Sorry brah. You have a man crush. That's all.


This ain't Tony Parker?


[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mxUx01TrtfM]Gus Williams 28 points vs. Lakers 1980 WCF Game 1 - YouTube[/ame]


You're fuckin' nuts!



As far as a man crush, don't forget, I'm a Laker fan!  I hated Gus Williams!


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## EPark

He is top 10 PG of all-time, but not overall.


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## TheGreatGatsby

Billo_Really said:


> TheGreatGatsby said:
> 
> 
> 
> No he's not. I did go watch some clips on YT. Sorry brah. You have a man crush. That's all.
> 
> 
> 
> This ain't Tony Parker?
> 
> 
> [ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mxUx01TrtfM]Gus Williams 28 points vs. Lakers 1980 WCF Game 1 - YouTube[/ame]
> 
> 
> You're fuckin' nuts!
> 
> 
> 
> As far as a man crush, don't forget, I'm a Laker fan!  I hated Gus Williams!
Click to expand...


Clearly, the heart grows fonder in his absence. And remind me what Gus Williams team beat an 80's Lakers team in a playoff series? Stop pretending there ever was any real animosity.

If you want me to throw you a bone; Gus Williams seems worthy of being int the top 50. But putting him in the top 10? Place your top ten. Let's see who you're saying he is better than.


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## Billo_Really

TheGreatGatsby said:


> Clearly, the heart grows fonder in his absence. And remind me what Gus Williams team beat an 80's Lakers team in a playoff series? Stop pretending there ever was any real animosity.


They were the defending NBA champions, Magic's rookie year.

They appeared in the finals two years in a row.

The only reason I remember him, is because we never could seem to stop him.




TheGreatGatsby said:


> If you want me to throw you a bone; Gus Williams seems worthy of being int the top 50. But putting him in the top 10? Place your top ten. Let's see who you're saying he is better than.


Top ten guards?


Magic
Oscar Robertson
Walt Frazier
Earl Monroe
Pete Maravich
Lenny Wilkins
Calvin Murphy
John Stockton
Hal Greer
Gail Goodrich
And me.

I was very good at park ball.


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## Billo_Really

EPark said:


> He is top 10 PG of all-time, but not overall.


Not top 10.

But he might be the Nets new coach.


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## TheGreatGatsby

Billo_Really said:


> TheGreatGatsby said:
> 
> 
> 
> Clearly, the heart grows fonder in his absence. And remind me what Gus Williams team beat an 80's Lakers team in a playoff series? Stop pretending there ever was any real animosity.
> 
> 
> 
> They were the defending NBA champions, Magic's rookie year.
> 
> They appeared in the finals two years in a row.
> 
> The only reason I remember him, is because we never could seem to stop him.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> TheGreatGatsby said:
> 
> 
> 
> If you want me to throw you a bone; Gus Williams seems worthy of being int the top 50. But putting him in the top 10? Place your top ten. Let's see who you're saying he is better than.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Top ten guards?
> 
> 
> Magic
> Oscar Robertson
> Walt Frazier
> Earl Monroe
> Pete Maravich
> Lenny Wilkins
> Calvin Murphy
> John Stockton
> Hal Greer
> Gail Goodrich
> And me.
> 
> I was very good at park ball.
Click to expand...


You seem to think that the old-timers are overwhelmingly better than the guards from the last 20 years. 

Lenny Wilkens? Possibly the most over-rated player in the history of the NBA. Ironically, he's possibly the most over-rated coach too. He doesn't belong in the top 100 guards of all-time; let alone at the six spot. And it was a joke that they made him among the top 50 NBA greatest players. That was politics.

Guys like Monroe, Frazier, Murphy, Goodrich, Greer. Yea they belong on the list of top 100 guards. But top ten? I just don't see it that way. They're the Dwyane Wades of their day. Very painted up, but not that great, really. Putting those guys on a top ten list would be like putting Dennis Johnson or Danny Ainge on the top ten list. 

And you're just saying guards (not pgs). So - I'm curious. You put those guys ahead of Jordan and Bryant, etc.


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## Billo_Really

TheGreatGatsby said:


> You seem to think that the old-timers are overwhelmingly better than the guards from the last 20 years.
> 
> Lenny Wilkens? Possibly the most over-rated player in the history of the NBA. Ironically, he's possibly the most over-rated coach too. He doesn't belong in the top 100 guards of all-time; let alone at the six spot. And it was a joke that they made him among the top 50 NBA greatest players. That was politics.
> 
> Guys like Monroe, Frazier, Murphy, Goodrich, Greer. Yea they belong on the list of top 100 guards. But top ten? I just don't see it that way. They're the Dwyane Wades of their day. Very painted up, but not that great, really. Putting those guys on a top ten list would be like putting Dennis Johnson or Danny Ainge on the top ten list.
> 
> And you're just saying guards (not pgs). So - I'm curious. You put those guys ahead of Jordan and Bryant, etc.


You seem to think athleticism automatically makes you a better guard.  Or better player?  The best player on the planet was a complete joke in the game last night.  He wasn't worth Bill Laimbeer's jock strap last night.

I remember those guys, because I watched them play a lot.  I watch the players of today a lot to.  I've been a gym rat all my life. The league is far more deluted now, than it was back then.  There are a lot of guys playing in the NBA today, that would never make the first cut back then.

You mock Frazier?  He would shut Jordan down, much like Cooper did.  Frazier was the all NBA first team on offense and defense every year he was in the league.  He's in the top 5 defensive guards of all time.  Along with West, Michael Cooper, Jerry Sloan, Dennis Johnson and Bryant.  All Jordan did defensively, was cheat on the passing lanes.  He couldn't shut down a top shooting guard like Coop or DJ could.  He never guarded Magic. Well, not for long.  If he did, Magic would eat his lunch.

There is no one in the NBA today that could stop Earl the Pearl.  Lew Alcindor couldn't stop Earl the Pearl in his 2nd year in the league.  He stopped everyone else on the Bullets team, but not him!  Monroe had too much of that "now you see it, now you don't" stuff, that made Dr. J great.  "The ball's right here, oh no, now it's over hear!"  Guys would look like they're having a seizure trying to block their shots.  Swinging their arms at nothing but air.

I included Wilkins out of respect for setting the record Stockton and Magic broke.  Anyone getting that many assists on consistantly suck-ass teams he had, is not over-rated.

Dwayne Wade is a has-been.  The Spurs are not even guarding him.


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## Billo_Really

Top guards of all time:

Magic
Oscar
West
Frazier
Monroe
Bryant
Durant
Hal Greer
Pete Maravich
Dave Bing
Yeah, I know who's missing.

He doesn't even make my top ten players of all time.


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