# Science moves closer to biblical creation.



## Woodznutz (Sep 18, 2022)

God created the material universe "out of thin air", that is, out of _nothing (_although there is more to the story than this). Science has moved closer to demonstrating this.  



			Scientists create matter from nothing in groundbreaking experiment


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## JohnA (Sep 18, 2022)

even if  its proven you can make **something from nothing **does not prove the  existance of god ..


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## Blues Man (Sep 18, 2022)

All that proves is that a race with sufficient technology could have created the universe. No gods necessary.


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## Calypso Jones (Sep 18, 2022)

Did you catch that....graphene.

I call BULLSHIT.

There's an agenda here and it aint science and it aint creation.


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## Woodznutz (Sep 18, 2022)

JohnA said:


> even if  its proven you can make **something from nothing **does not prove the  existance of god ..


Those scientists didn't actually create something from nothing. They created something from _electricity _(which is still a mystery to science). They will likely soon admit that they now have more questions than answers.


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## Woodznutz (Sep 18, 2022)

Blues Man said:


> All that proves is that a race with sufficient technology could have created the universe. No gods necessary.


What it proves is that science has fallen yet deeper into its own rabbit hole.


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## Woodznutz (Sep 18, 2022)

JohnA said:


> even if  its proven you can make **something from nothing **does not prove the  existance of god ..


God exists, no proof needed.


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## Grumblenuts (Sep 18, 2022)

> As _Big Think_ reports, in early 2022, a group of researchers created strong enough electric fields in their laboratory to level the unique properties of a material known as graphene.
> 
> With these fields, the researchers were able to enable the spontaneous creation of particle-antiparticle pairs from nothing at all. This proved that creating matter from nothing is indeed possible, a theory first proposed by Julian Schwinger, one of the founders of quantum field theory. And with that knowledge, we can hopefully better understand how the universe makes something from nothing.


So with big magnets they managed to suck energy directly from counterspace which spontaneously transformed into matter just as it always does and has, the reverse being (spatial) matter reverting to its counterspatial energy equivalent. Curiously, they neglect to specify exactly what these so-called "particles" were other than calling them "particle-antiparticle pairs."


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## Hollie (Sep 18, 2022)

Woodznutz said:


> God created the material universe "out of thin air", that is, out of _nothing (_although there is more to the story than this). Science has moved closer to demonstrating this.
> 
> 
> 
> Scientists create matter from nothing in groundbreaking experiment



This would seem to prove the gods were never required as creationers from nothingness.


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## Woodznutz (Sep 18, 2022)

Hollie said:


> This would seem to prove the gods were never required as creationers from nothingness.


The experiment is bogus. They are more confused now than they were before. They did admit the difficulty in making something from nothing, however. What the experiment suggests is that powerful lightning strikes created the universe. However, they didn't mention where the lightning came from.


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## Blues Man (Sep 18, 2022)

Woodznutz said:


> What it proves is that science has fallen yet deeper into its own rabbit hole.


Just the opposite.

Science has demonstrated there is no need for a god for the universe to exist


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## alang1216 (Sep 18, 2022)

Woodznutz said:


> God created the material universe "out of thin air", that is, out of _nothing (_although there is more to the story than this). Science has moved closer to demonstrating this.


MSN may say it is from 'nothing' but I'd guess the scientists would say it is from the fields that make up the universe.


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## Hollie (Sep 18, 2022)

Woodznutz said:


> The experiment is bogus. They are more confused now than they were before. They did admit the difficulty in making something from nothing, however. What the experiment suggests is that powerful lightning strikes created the universe. However, they didn't mention where the lightning came from.


How is the experiment bogus? Could you offer some specific information about the experiment to make your case? Could you comment on what aspects of the experiment that were bogus?

There was a specific reference to ''electric fields', not lightning. You didn't mention where the gods came from who invented lightning.


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## abu afak (Sep 18, 2022)

Blues Man said:


> *All that proves is that a race with sufficient technology could have created the universe. No gods necessary.*


And that of course just "kicks the can down the road."
Who 'created' "a race with sufficient technology"? Or should I say how did IT come to be?
Transpermia solves nothing.
`


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## Woodznutz (Sep 18, 2022)

Blues Man said:


> Just the opposite.
> 
> Science has demonstrated there is no need for a god for the universe to exist


Science is the study of God's creation.


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## Woodznutz (Sep 18, 2022)

Hollie said:


> How is the experiment bogus? Could you offer some specific information about the experiment to make your case? Could you comment on what aspects of the experiment that were bogus?
> 
> There was a specific reference to ''electric fields', not lightning. You didn't mention where the gods came from who invented lightning.


You're begging the question.


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## Hollie (Sep 18, 2022)

Woodznutz said:


> You're begging the question.


I would propose you have that wrong. To assume three versions of one God as being responsible for all of the known and unknown universe, as opposed to all the other gods, leaves us with the obvious question, "suppose all of the gods invented by humans are no more real than the Munchkins living in Munchkin Country''?


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## Grumblenuts (Sep 18, 2022)

Blues Man said:


> Science has demonstrated there is no need for a god for the universe to exist


I'd say. Demonstrated for those who retain doubts (many) and for those who didn't already know that matter could be extracted from apparently "nothing" short of having a large bang! (most).  Also, "a race with sufficient technology" goes nowhere as a logical substitute. Sure, with sufficient technology no doubt we could do mighty impressive things. But creating an entire universe where we became "a race" to begin with, no. Not without being anal retentive gods.


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## Grumblenuts (Sep 18, 2022)

Woodznutz said:


> God created the material universe "out of thin air", that is, out of _nothing (_although there is more to the story than this). Science has moved closer to demonstrating this.
> 
> 
> 
> Scientists create matter from nothing in groundbreaking experiment


You're the one begging the question, literally quoting your source saying "*Scientists create* matter from nothing" then changing the subject to "*God created* the material universe"... And though "thin air" is cliché, many don't appreciate the profound distinction at all. Air is mostly nitrogen and oxygen, i.e. gaseous *matter* including bugs. It's already "material"!


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## alang1216 (Sep 18, 2022)

Woodznutz said:


> Science is the study of God's creation.


Exactly wrong.  If there were a creator God, he would be supernatural to have created the natural world, by definition.  Science is restricted to the study of the natural world, NOT the supernatural one.


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## hjmick (Sep 18, 2022)

Science is not moving closer to biblical creation. And nothing in your link article indicates otherwise.


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## Woodznutz (Sep 18, 2022)

alang1216 said:


> Exactly wrong.  If there were a creator God, he would be supernatural to have created the natural world, by definition.  Science is restricted to the study of the natural world, NOT the supernatural one.


The natural is the visible evidence of the supernatural.


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## Hollie (Sep 18, 2022)

Woodznutz said:


> The natural is the visible evidence of the supernatural.


Wha?


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## Woodznutz (Sep 18, 2022)

Hollie said:


> Wha?


Science is stumped by this as well.


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## Blues Man (Sep 18, 2022)

abu afak said:


> And that of course just "kicks the can down the road."
> Who 'created' "a race with sufficient technology"? Or should I say how did IT come to be?
> Transpermia solves nothing.
> `


Who cares?


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## Blues Man (Sep 18, 2022)

Grumblenuts said:


> I'd say. Demonstrated for those who retain doubts (many) and for those who didn't already know that matter could be extracted from apparently "nothing" short of having a large bang! (most).  Also, "a race with sufficient technology" goes nowhere as a logical substitute. Sure, with sufficient technology no doubt we could do mighty impressive things. But creating an entire universe where we became "a race" to begin with, no. Not without being anal retentive gods.


For all we know this universe is nothing but a computer program


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## alang1216 (Sep 18, 2022)

Woodznutz said:


> The natural is the visible evidence of the supernatural.


So what is the evidence of the supernatural?


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## Leo123 (Sep 18, 2022)

Woodznutz said:


> God created the material universe "out of thin air", that is, out of _nothing (_although there is more to the story than this). Science has moved closer to demonstrating this.
> 
> 
> 
> Scientists create matter from nothing in groundbreaking experiment


The article says they used electric fields and graphene.  These are not nothing.   Need more info.


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## Grumblenuts (Sep 18, 2022)

Blues Man said:


> For all we know this universe is nothing but a computer program


From all we know, that's highly unlikely. Just sounds defeatist.


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## Grumblenuts (Sep 18, 2022)

alang1216 said:


> MSN may say it is from 'nothing' but I'd guess the scientists would say it is from the fields that make up the universe.


I wish. I'd sure like to expound on that when I get a chance..


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## Grumblenuts (Sep 19, 2022)

Okay, stealing some expound time..


alang1216 said:


> MSN may say it is from 'nothing' but I'd guess the scientists would say it is from the fields that make up the universe.


Scientists? Physicists? Cosmologists? In any case, all have been talking about "fields" far more and "particles" slightly less lately, thankfully. Perhaps too little, too late, but hope springs eternal.

It sure would be refreshing if our kids or grandkids were being taught that fields "make up the universe" rather than all the crap we were fed. Basically, that everything's just _matter with with lots of "nothing" in between_, LOL. _Gravity acting upon big masses with a bit of, sometimes dangerous,  electromagnetic energy bouncing around from here to there. _Pathetic.

We learned somewhere that "Nature abhors a vacuum" and then there was no real follow up. Truth is, "nothing" never occurs. Virtually "nothing" is what apparently caused our Big Bang, resulting in our local, visible universe. This thing that "scientists" vastly, arrogantly, and ignorantly presume to be our entire universe. Every black hole, which we now presume to reside at the center of every large galaxy, is a virtual "nothing" that somehow manages to possess tremendous mass simultaneously and at the same time too!

These are just a few among many things that should lead people to question _"Just who the hell's been in charge here anyway and where'd they stuff all the smart people?!"_

Atoms supposedly consist of "subatomic particles." Protons, neutrons, and a whole bunch of crap no one will ever actually "observe." So we have protons, neutrons, and a whole bunch of spark theory. The math definitely works out so it all simply must be real as first described by our geniuses at CERN.. all of this "duel wave/particle" stuff.. The "Standard Model"..  Quantum Mechanics.. Well math sure comes in handy, but it can't explain everything. In fact, it has explained its own limitations. We learn about Heisenberg Uncertainty, nod, and conveniently forget about it, much preferring well-hardened, way overcomplicated, absolute, institutionally approved certainty.


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## Grumblenuts (Sep 19, 2022)

Problem is you either have a particle or you don't. QM has been getting away with mushing "waves" (energy) together with "particles" (mass/matter) from day one even though Einstein correctly revealed that mass(matter) and energy are essentially equivalent. All is really just energy, much possessing "apparent mass." Once one can wrap their head around that they are freed to forget so-called "particles" and begin discussing fields (energy, reality) with gusto.


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## Grumblenuts (Sep 19, 2022)

To really begin discussing fields with gusto one must also wrap their head around the Aether. The Aether is real, required, and not simply lumenifericent. It's the fundamental field, enabling and effecting all energy transfer, and it's clearly mathematically based. What they really explore at CERN is the Aether. They just don't know it yet. Einstein mistakenly deemed it "unnecessary" and electrical science has been largely knocked unconscious since.

I'll just discuss this perhaps most common and revealing example before I shut up and go to bed. Say we have light (energy) passing through air, then (a layer, lens, or prism of) glass, then air again. One easily observes how it abruptly changes direction at the interfaces and splits into a rainbow of colors in the case of the prism. We know that light (energy) travels more slowly through glass than air. So what makes it speed up again to nearly "the speed of light" once it exits the glass??? The only intelligent answer is: _Must be the Aether!_

The Aether itself effects the entire business. It remains nominally dense in air, but being attracted to matter, packs itself within the molecular lattice of all solid materials. So when it hits the glass.. _Wait, what hits the glass?_ The light energy being transferred through the Aether, silly. _Whatever!_ So, as I was saying, once it hits the glass it slows down due to the Aether being thicker (more dense) there. And naturally, it just speeds back up again once it escapes back into "thin air."


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## Grumblenuts (Sep 19, 2022)

Okay, one last thing. A photon is then just a linear unit quantity of light energy. A little field in a sea of fields. All just Aether manifestations. A photon's length and speed depend upon the density of matter its attempting to pass through. Not a wave. Not a particle. It will travel at c wherever there's relatively little matter around to interfere. Again, due to the Aether's attraction to dense matter, light (energy) is bent around massive bodies in space such as black holes, planets, and so forth. All that four dimensional "spacetime" BS logically rendered "unnecessary"! Fugget about it! Space cannot "warp" by definition.


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## Woodznutz (Sep 19, 2022)

alang1216 said:


> So what is the evidence of the supernatural?


The natural.


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## alang1216 (Sep 19, 2022)

Woodznutz said:


> The natural.


Sounds like a contradiction to me but what do I know.


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## Hollie (Sep 19, 2022)

Woodznutz said:


> Science is stumped by this as well.


Science tells us that such things as firmaments and a flat earth are not stumpers.


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## Woodznutz (Sep 19, 2022)

alang1216 said:


> Sounds like a contradiction to me but what do I know.


The earth is a very unnatural place in the universe (which is also pretty unnatural).


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## Woodznutz (Sep 19, 2022)

Hollie said:


> Science tells us that such things as firmaments and a flat earth are not stumpers.


Scientists will also tell you there are things that just shouldn't be. I read that somewhere...no link.


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## Woodznutz (Sep 19, 2022)

Hollie said:


> Science tells us that such things as firmaments and a flat earth are not stumpers.


Science makes good living trying to explain the unexplainable.


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## Woodznutz (Sep 19, 2022)

Grumblenuts said:


> It sure would be refreshing if our kids or grandkids were being taught that fields "make up the universe" rather than all the crap we were fed.


My grandson is studying welding.


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## Batcat (Sep 19, 2022)

Woodznutz said:


> God created the material universe "out of thin air", that is, out of _nothing (_although there is more to the story than this). Science has moved closer to demonstrating this.
> 
> 
> 
> Scientists create matter from nothing in groundbreaking experiment


One day some scientists challenged God by saying they could create a better human being. 

God agreed. “OK, you’re on.”

The scientists pulled out a shop vac and started to suck up some dust to create their version of a man.

God held up his hand and stopped them.

He said, ”First create your own dust from nothing like I did,”


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## Hollie (Sep 20, 2022)

Woodznutz said:


> The earth is a very unnatural place in the universe (which is also pretty unnatural).


How is the earth unnatural? What is supernatural about the earth?

What does “pretty unnatural”, mean? Kinda’, sorta’ natural but not not really?

Can you identify anything about either the earth or the universe that is unnatural?


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## alang1216 (Sep 20, 2022)

Woodznutz said:


> The earth is a very unnatural place in the universe (which is also pretty unnatural).


What is unnatural about the Earth?  It is likely there are billions of Earths just in our own galaxy.  What are you comparing it to?


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## frigidweirdo (Sep 20, 2022)

Woodznutz said:


> God created the material universe "out of thin air", that is, out of _nothing (_although there is more to the story than this). Science has moved closer to demonstrating this.
> 
> 
> 
> Scientists create matter from nothing in groundbreaking experiment



Or it could just be that we don't understand what's going on. 

When I was a kid, people didn't understand how bees could fly. But bees could fly. 

So many matter isn't being created out of nothing. Maybe it only looks like that because of our ignorance.


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## Grumblenuts (Sep 20, 2022)

Batcat said:


> One day some scientists challenged God by saying they could create a better human being.
> 
> God agreed. “OK, you’re on.”
> 
> ...


The scientists held up their hands and said, "Look, sparky, we created you. You'd at least have your own podcast, Tik Tok and YouTube channels by now if you actually existed.


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## Woodznutz (Sep 20, 2022)

Hollie said:


> How is the earth unnatural? What is supernatural about the earth?
> 
> What does “pretty unnatural”, mean? Kinda’, sorta’ natural but not not really?
> 
> Can you identify anything about either the earth or the universe that is unnatural?


So far the earth is the only place in the universe that we know of that has life. The 'natural' state of the universe is the absence of life.


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## Woodznutz (Sep 20, 2022)

Grumblenuts said:


> The scientists held up their hands and said, "Look, sparky, we created you. You'd at least have your own podcast, Tik Tok and YouTube channels by now if you actually existed.


God has those, the bible and the church.


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## Grumblenuts (Sep 20, 2022)

Woodznutz said:


> God has those, the bible and the church.


"*your own* podcast, Tik Tok and YouTube channels" {registered to "God."}


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## Grumblenuts (Sep 20, 2022)




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## Hollie (Sep 20, 2022)

Woodznutz said:


> So far the earth is the only place in the universe that we know of that has life. The 'natural' state of the universe is the absence of life.


Yes. "Naturally occurring" is the apparent state of the universe. We have no experience with anything unnatural, or supernatural. 

Let's remember that within a universe that is 13.7 billion +/_ years old, we have only had crude telescopes for a few hundred years. Broadcast radio waves go back for about one hundred years. Those signals get virtually nowhere in the cosmic timeframes. The Hubble is only a few decades old.


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## Grumblenuts (Sep 20, 2022)

Woodznutz said:


> So far the earth is the only place in the universe that we know of that has life. The 'natural' state of the universe is the absence of life.


Our ignorance of life existing beyond Earth is quite natural since we've only recently begun scientifically searching in earnest for life elsewhere. We do not know so cannot yet state things such as "The 'natural' state of the universe is the absence of life." Such presumption offers only deliberate pessimism to support a political or religious agenda.

Actually, there's this to consider as well:





						New species of bacteria found on the International Space Station | BBC Science Focus Magazine
					

Three new species of bacteria have been found growing on the International Space Station by scientists who say they could aid the growth of crops in space.



					www.sciencefocus.com


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## Woodznutz (Sep 20, 2022)

Grumblenuts said:


> "*your own* podcast, Tik Tok and YouTube channels" {registered to "God."}


The church and the bible will have to do. God won't make it easy.


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## Grumblenuts (Sep 20, 2022)

Woodznutz said:


> The church and the bible will have to do. God won't make it easy.


They'll never do, being so obviously man made productions.


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## Woodznutz (Sep 20, 2022)

Hollie said:


> Yes. "Naturally occurring" is the apparent state of the universe. We have no experience with anything unnatural, or supernatural.
> 
> Let's remember that within a universe that is 13.7 billion +/_ years old, we have only had crude telescopes for a few hundred years. Broadcast radio waves go back for about one hundred years. Those signals get virtually nowhere in the cosmic timeframes. The Hubble is only a few decades old.


Nevertheless, what we know_ now_ is that only the earth has life.


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## Woodznutz (Sep 20, 2022)

Grumblenuts said:


> They'll never do, being so obviously man made productions.


If you have read the Bible you'd know that man, on his own, would never write such a thing.

One wonders if the coming "famine of the word" suggests that the Bible will be banned.


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## Grumblenuts (Sep 20, 2022)

Woodznutz said:


> Nevertheless, what we know_ now_ is that only the earth has life.


What medal do we deserve for "know"ing we're still ignorant?


Woodznutz said:


> If you have read the Bible you'd know that man, on his own, would never write such a thing.


I've read most of it. My mileage has been different.


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## Woodznutz (Sep 20, 2022)

frigidweirdo said:


> Or it could just be that we don't understand what's going on.
> 
> When I was a kid, people didn't understand how bees could fly. But bees could fly.
> 
> So many matter isn't being created out of nothing. Maybe it only looks like that because of our ignorance.


I think that was only in regard to bumble bees.









						Explained: The Physics-Defying Flight of the Bumblebee
					

The bumblebee doesn't look like much of a flyer, but a closer inspection of its flight mechanism reveals interesting physics.




					www.livescience.com


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## Grumblenuts (Sep 20, 2022)

frigidweirdo said:


> Or it could just be that we don't understand what's going on.
> 
> When I was a kid, people didn't understand how bees could fly. But bees could fly.
> 
> So many matter isn't being created out of nothing. Maybe it only looks like that because of our ignorance.


Indeed. What research has found "nothing" to be an actual thing to begin with? Seems to me, both logic and research support dielectric and/or magnetic somethingness existing absolutely everywhere.




__





						Evidence of absence - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org
				





> The argument from ignorance for "absence of evidence" is not necessarily fallacious, for example, that a potentially life-saving new drug poses no long-term health risk unless proved otherwise. On the other hand, *were such an argument to rely imprudently on the lack of research to promote its conclusion, it would be considered an informal fallacy* whereas the former can be a persuasive way to shift the burden of proof in an argument or debate.


^^^Woodnutz^^^


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## Batcat (Sep 20, 2022)

Grumblenuts said:


> The scientists held up their hands and said, "Look, sparky, we created you. You'd at least have your own podcast, Tik Tok and YouTube channels by now if you actually existed.


God on YouTube would be interesting.


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## Hollie (Sep 21, 2022)

Woodznutz said:


> Nevertheless, what we know_ now_ is that only the earth has life.


Correct, you may want knowledge and learning to remain static but that is... how shall we say... Unnatural, to the human experience. 

The thought of discovery of life on another planet is really quite devastating to the Christian version of religion because all of existence and all life is an earthly matter of supernatural origin.


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## Woodznutz (Sep 21, 2022)

Hollie said:


> Correct, you may want knowledge and learning to remain static but that is... how shall we say... Unnatural, to the human experience.
> 
> The thought of discovery of life on another planet is really quite devastating to the Christian version of religion because all of existence and all life is an earthly matter of supernatural origin.


We believe in extraterrestrial life, but it's spirit life. If it manifests physically someday that will be ok.


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## Hollie (Sep 21, 2022)

Woodznutz said:


> We believe in extraterrestrial life, but it's spirit life. If it manifests physically someday that will be ok.


Discovery of life on another planet would be an irreconcilable problem for Christianity. Biblical creation is a supernatural, earthly event. How would you explain gods experimenting on other planets?


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## Woodznutz (Sep 21, 2022)

Hollie said:


> Discovery of life on another planet would be an irreconcilable problem for Christianity. Biblical creation is a supernatural, earthly event. How would you explain gods experimenting on other planets?


Genesis 1:1 God created the heavens as well as the earth. We don't know his plans for the universe. We've got enough on our plate with earth's problems.


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## Hollie (Sep 21, 2022)

Woodznutz said:


> Genesis 1:1 God created the heavens as well as the earth. We don't know his plans for the universe. We've got enough on our plate with earth's problems.


"We" have no reason to accept that the Christian god(s) actually exist. Why should anyone expect a book written by unknown authors points to any gods?

Otherwise, should we anticipate an earthly redux of A&E, (not the cable station), on some far away planet?


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## Grumblenuts (Sep 21, 2022)

Woodznutz said:


> Genesis 1:1 God created the heavens as well as the earth. We don't know his plans for the universe. We've got enough on our plate with earth's problems.


Major synchronicity issues just with that alone:








						Formation of Earth | National Geographic Society
					

Our planet began as part of a cloud of dust and gas. It has evolved into our home, which has an abundance of rocky landscapes, an atmosphere that supports life, and oceans filled with mysteries.




					education.nationalgeographic.org


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## Damaged Eagle (Sep 22, 2022)

Blues Man said:


> All that proves is that a race with sufficient technology could have created the universe. No gods necessary.








If there was nothing how could there be a race to create something?

*****CHUCKLE*****


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## Damaged Eagle (Sep 22, 2022)

hjmick said:


> Science is not moving closer to biblical creation. And nothing in your link article indicates otherwise.







Science did that decades ago by stealing biblical creation teachings and calling it the Big Bang.

*****CHUCKLE*****


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## Woodznutz (Sep 22, 2022)

Hollie said:


> "We" have no reason to accept that the Christian god(s) actually exist. Why should anyone expect a book written by unknown authors points to any gods?
> 
> Otherwise, should we anticipate an earthly redux of A&E, (not the cable station), on some far away planet?


Although most are familiar with the Bible story God hasn't revealed himself to everyone, only to the church in this the 'church age'. You would fall into this category. No worries, your time will come.


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## Woodznutz (Sep 22, 2022)

Grumblenuts said:


> Major synchronicity issues just with that alone:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Lots of "it is believed" in this link. Welcome to the 'religion' of science.


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## Woodznutz (Sep 22, 2022)

alang1216 said:


> If there were a creator God, he would be supernatural to have created the natural world, by definition.


True.


alang1216 said:


> Science is restricted to the study of the natural world, NOT the supernatural one.


Also true. We are in agreement.


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## Woodznutz (Sep 22, 2022)

Grumblenuts said:


> You're the one begging the question, literally quoting your source saying "*Scientists create* matter from nothing" then changing the subject to "*God created* the material universe"... And though "thin air" is cliché, many don't appreciate the profound distinction at all. Air is mostly nitrogen and oxygen, i.e. gaseous *matter* including bugs. It's already "material"!


 How about "out of the blue"?


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## Grumblenuts (Sep 22, 2022)

Woodznutz said:


> How about "out of the blue"?


Again, the sky appears blue due to the blue wavelengths being scattered by the particles (matter) within "thin air." 








						Rayleigh scattering - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org


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## Grumblenuts (Sep 22, 2022)

Woodznutz said:


> Lots of "it is believed" in this link. Welcome to the 'religion' of science.


One instance, actually:


> Other events were occurring on our young planet at this time as well. *It is believed* that during the early formation of Earth, asteroids were continuously bombarding the planet, and could have been carrying with them an important source of water.


Curiously, no "belief" going on at all here in the next paragraph:


> A few hundred million years after this process—around 2.2 billion to 2.7 billion years ago—photosynthesizing bacteria evolved. They released oxygen into the atmosphere via photosynthesis and, in a few hundred million years, were able to change the composition of the atmosphere into what we have today. Our modern atmosphere is comprised of 78 percent nitrogen and 21 percent oxygen, among other gases, which enables it to support the many lives residing within it.


There's that not so "thin air" again. At lunchtime go out and stare at a big tree. Ask yourself, "Self, how did that get here?" Think.. The answer is vastly CO2 + H2O coming from that very same "thin air."


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## Woodznutz (Sep 22, 2022)

Grumblenuts said:


> One instance, actually:
> 
> Curiously, no "belief" going on at all here in the next paragraph:
> 
> There's that not so "thin air" again. At lunchtime go out and stare at a big tree. Ask yourself, "Self, how did that get here?" Think.. The answer is vastly CO2 + H2O coming from that very same "thin air."


So, we strike all idioms from the language?


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## Woodznutz (Sep 22, 2022)

Grumblenuts said:


> One instance, actually:


I counted five.


----------



## Hollie (Sep 22, 2022)

Woodznutz said:


> Although most are familiar with the Bible story God hasn't revealed himself to everyone, only to the church in this the 'church age'. You would fall into this category. No worries, your time will come.


Why do you believe the Christian gods will reveal themselves to me?  

Shouldn't they be checking ID's at the pearly gates?


----------



## Woodznutz (Sep 22, 2022)

Hollie said:


> Why do you believe the Christian gods will reveal themselves to me?


It's God's will that everyone has a chance for salvation and eternal life. That includes you.


----------



## alang1216 (Sep 22, 2022)

Woodznutz said:


> True.
> 
> Also true. We are in agreement.


It is also true that since creation is a supernatural event, science can never get 'closer' to it?


----------



## Grumblenuts (Sep 22, 2022)

Woodznutz said:


> So, we strike all idioms from the language?


Shall I assume that you're bound and determined to always miss (if not completely ignore) any well supported point that you don't like with a vengeance?


Woodznutz said:


> I counted five.


I was being generous. It's actually zero. When you say "Lot's of" (quote _"blaa, blaa, blaa"_) you're _not paraphrasing_ so it best be exact or you're talking BS.


----------



## Woodznutz (Sep 22, 2022)

alang1216 said:


> It is also true that since creation is a supernatural event, science can never get 'closer' to it?


By closer I mean closer to realizing that it was a supernatural event.


----------



## Woodznutz (Sep 22, 2022)

Grumblenuts said:


> Shall I assume that you're bound and determined to always miss (if not completely ignore) any well supported point that you don't like with a vengeance?
> 
> I was being generous. It's actually zero. When you say "Lot's of" (quote _"blaa, blaa, blaa"_) you're _not paraphrasing_ so it best be exact or you're talking BS.


It is exactly five (that's a lot).  I've isolated the statements for you.

 One common* belief* among scientists is that a distant star collapsed, creating a supernova explosion, which disrupted the dust cloud and caused it to pull together.

Scientists* believe* that Earth, like the other inner planets, came to its current state in three different stages.

Scientists *believe* the next stage involved the collision of a protoplanet with a very young planet Earth.

It is* believed* that during the early formation of Earth, asteroids were continuously bombarding the planet, and could have been carrying with them an important source of water.

 Scientists* believe* the asteroids that slammed into Earth, the moon, and other inner planets contained a significant amount of water in their minerals, needed for the creation of life.

These unfounded and unproven beliefs are predicated on this introductory statement,

"Billions of years ago, Earth, along with the rest of our solar system, was entirely unrecognizable, existing only as an enormous cloud of dust and gas. _*Eventually, a mysterious occurrence—one that even the world’s foremost scientists have yet been unable to determine*_—created a disturbance in that dust cloud, setting forth a string of events that would lead to the formation of life as we know it."

This pattern is repeated in almost all such articles, which reveal the extent of scientific belief, sans proof. It's the_ faith _of the religion of science.


----------



## Grumblenuts (Sep 22, 2022)

Woodznutz said:


> By closer I mean closer to realizing that it was a supernatural event.


You expect a lot from a word simply meaning to study systematically.
Science:


> _noun_
> 
> 
> the intellectual and practical activity encompassing the systematic study of the structure and behaviour of the physical and natural world through observation and experiment.
> "the world of science and technology"





Woodznutz said:


> It is exactly five (that's a lot).  I've isolated the statements for you.
> 
> One common* belief* among scientists is that a distant star collapsed, creating a supernova explosion, which disrupted the dust cloud and caused it to pull together.
> 
> ...


Noted. You fail to understand the obvious difference between quoting and paraphrasing.


----------



## alang1216 (Sep 22, 2022)

Woodznutz said:


> By closer I mean closer to realizing that it was a supernatural event.


I've never heard any mention of the supernatural in the science world.  Ever, so I'm not sure there is a case to be made there.


----------



## Woodznutz (Sep 22, 2022)

Grumblenuts said:


> You expect a lot from a word simply meaning to study systematically.
> Science:
> 
> 
> Noted. You fail to understand the obvious difference between quoting and paraphrasing.


You can't run from this statement, a statement that also found in many such articles.

_*Eventually, a mysterious occurrence—one that even the world’s foremost scientists have yet been unable to determine*_—

This is the 'sand' that science has built its house on.


----------



## Woodznutz (Sep 22, 2022)

alang1216 said:


> I've never heard any mention of the supernatural in the science world.  Ever, so I'm not sure there is a case to be made there.


Science will eventually come to the realization everything they can detect comes from that which in undetectable.


----------



## alang1216 (Sep 22, 2022)

Woodznutz said:


> You can't run from this statement, a statement that also found in many such articles.
> 
> _*Eventually, a mysterious occurrence—one that even the world’s foremost scientists have yet been unable to determine*_—
> 
> This is the 'sand' that science has built its house on.


God of the gaps - _a theological perspective in which gaps in scientific knowledge are taken to be evidence or proof of God's existence_.


----------



## alang1216 (Sep 22, 2022)

Woodznutz said:


> Science will eventually come to the realization everything they can detect comes from that which in undetectable.


Prediction, prophesy, or wish?


----------



## Woodznutz (Sep 22, 2022)

alang1216 said:


> Prediction, prophesy, or wish?


Plain statements from the bible.


----------



## Woodznutz (Sep 22, 2022)

alang1216 said:


> God of the gaps - _a theological perspective in which gaps in scientific knowledge are taken to be evidence or proof of God's existence_.


A phrase invented by unbelievers clearly intended to direct attention away from the failings of science.


----------



## Grumblenuts (Sep 22, 2022)

Woodznutz said:


> You can't run from this statement, a statement that also found in many such articles.
> 
> _*Eventually, a mysterious occurrence—one that even the world’s foremost scientists have yet been unable to determine*_—
> 
> This is the 'sand' that science has built its house on.


Has it? Built a house? On sand? Really?
You do love to your idioms. Got a picture to share of this science house under construction? Any testable, tangible evidence of something supernatural being real at all?


----------



## Mushroom (Sep 22, 2022)

Woodznutz said:


> They created something from _electricity_



Which like light is also a particle.

So, let me get this right.  They created particles from nothing, but needed particles to do it.

Seems a bit circular to me.


----------



## Woodznutz (Sep 22, 2022)

Grumblenuts said:


> Has it? Built a house? On sand? Really?
> You do love to your idioms. Got a picture to share of this science house under construction? Any testable, tangible evidence of something supernatural being real at all?


 What is really supernatural is so common that we consider it to be natural.


----------



## Grumblenuts (Sep 22, 2022)

Woodznutz said:


> Science will eventually come to the realization everything they can detect comes from that which in undetectable.


Clever, but first off, that would be scientists, not "Science." Next, "everything" clearly doesn't. Hens noticeably produce chicken eggs. Lastly, not being able to detect something today doesn't preclude us from ever doing so.


----------



## Grumblenuts (Sep 22, 2022)

Woodznutz said:


> What is really supernatural is so common that we consider it to be natural.


Nice conspiracy theory. Sadly, it doesn't address the question.


----------



## alang1216 (Sep 22, 2022)

Woodznutz said:


> Plain statements from the bible.


Which statements from which Bible?


----------



## alang1216 (Sep 22, 2022)

Woodznutz said:


> A phrase invented by unbelievers clearly intended to direct attention away from the failings of science.


I think it is more of an observation on the successes of science.  How many still believe in the 6 days of creation vs the big bang?


----------



## The Sage of Main Street (Sep 22, 2022)

Woodznutz said:


> God created the material universe "out of thin air", that is, out of _nothing (_although there is more to the story than this). Science has moved closer to demonstrating this.
> 
> 
> 
> Scientists create matter from nothing in groundbreaking experiment


*"Creating" Lava From a Volcano*

That matter comes from the Mother Universe that all our matter, energy, light, and even space come from.  Somehow the physicists created a gateway to that dimension, which also occurs in fission.


----------



## The Sage of Main Street (Sep 22, 2022)

abu afak said:


> And that of course just "kicks the can down the road."
> Who 'created' "a race with sufficient technology"? Or should I say how did IT come to be?
> Transpermia solves nothing.
> `


*A Seed Doesn't Grow in Sand, Which Is All There Is in a Childish Sandbox Like the University*

Rewarding HIgh IQs immediately for studying creates super-natural technology.  We don't get that from unpaid education, which is an insult to intelligence.  So we're stuck in a downward spiral.  The Big Bang was an upward spiral, because it entered a world that would be transformed through intelligence.


----------



## The Sage of Main Street (Sep 22, 2022)

Grumblenuts said:


> Okay, one last thing. A photon is then just a linear unit quantity of light energy. A little field in a sea of fields. All just Aether manifestations. A photon's length and speed depend upon the density of matter its attempting to pass through. Not a wave. Not a particle. It will travel at c wherever there's relatively little matter around to interfere. Again, due to the Aether's attraction to dense matter, light (energy) is bent around massive bodies in space such as black holes, planets, and so forth. All that four dimensional "spacetime" BS logically rendered "unnecessary"! Fugget about it! Space cannot "warp" by definition.


*Fiat Looks*

The ether drags on light.  Postmodern scientists are so shallow that they never ask why light's maximum velocity is c.  In the other universe, it is c squared.


----------



## The Sage of Main Street (Sep 22, 2022)

Grumblenuts said:


> The scientists held up their hands and said, "Look, sparky, we created you. You'd at least have your own podcast, Tik Tok and YouTube channels by now if you actually existed.


*"God Wouldn't Let Us Believe in Him If He Didn't Exist"*


----------



## Grumblenuts (Sep 22, 2022)

The Sage of Main Street said:


> *Fiat Looks*
> 
> The ether drags on light.  Postmodern scientists are so shallow that they never ask why light's maximum velocity is c.  In the other universe, it is c squared.


Yes, let there be light, but I'm still not following your c squared/other universe stuff.


----------



## Grumblenuts (Sep 22, 2022)

The Sage of Main Street said:


> *"God Wouldn't Let Us Believe in Him If He Didn't Exist"*


Ridding that of the double negative seems to help:

*"God Would Let Us Believe in Him if He Existed"*


----------



## Woodznutz (Sep 23, 2022)

Grumblenuts said:


> Clever, but first off, that would be scientists, not "Science." Next, "everything" clearly doesn't. Hens noticeably produce chicken eggs. Lastly, not being able to detect something today doesn't preclude us from ever doing so.


_Science _and _scientists_ are used interchangeably.


----------



## Woodznutz (Sep 23, 2022)

alang1216 said:


> I think it is more of an observation on the successes of science.  How many still believe in the 6 days of creation vs the big bang?


Not sure about the big bang, but the six days of creation were really a restoration of the earth as a suitable habitat for modern man.


----------



## Woodznutz (Sep 23, 2022)

alang1216 said:


> Which statements from which Bible?


Hebrews 11:3
Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

​


----------



## Grumblenuts (Sep 23, 2022)

Woodznutz said:


> Hebrews 11:3
> Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.


So that's why we can never get anywhere here. The letters forming the words simply don't appear!


----------



## Grumblenuts (Sep 23, 2022)

The tablets containing the Ten Commandments (words) were supposedly provided to Moses before mysteriously (conveniently) disappearing, right? The Bible was written by men using words supposedly inspired by that same "word of God." All the originals then also magically disappeared, no? Here's a thought.. It's all BS!


----------



## citygator (Sep 23, 2022)

Interesting blurb of an article. Thanks for posting.  Isnt creating matter out of a strong electromagentic field something and not nothing?


----------



## alang1216 (Sep 23, 2022)

Woodznutz said:


> Hebrews 11:3
> Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.


The operative word being 'faith', the opposite of science.


----------



## Grumblenuts (Sep 23, 2022)

citygator said:


> Interesting blurb of an article. Thanks for posting.  Isnt creating matter out of a strong electromagentic field something and not nothing?


I'd say.


----------



## Woodznutz (Sep 23, 2022)

Grumblenuts said:


> The tablets containing the Ten Commandments (words) were supposedly provided to Moses before mysteriously (conveniently) disappearing, right? The Bible was written by men using words supposedly inspired by that same "word of God." All the originals then also magically disappeared, no? Here's a thought.. It's all BS!


Well, that is the majority thought.


----------



## Woodznutz (Sep 23, 2022)

alang1216 said:


> The operative word being 'faith', the opposite of science.


Or _understand._


----------



## Woodznutz (Sep 23, 2022)

alang1216 said:


> The operative word being 'faith', the opposite of science.


 Haven't we established that science also has its 'faith'?


----------



## alang1216 (Sep 23, 2022)

Woodznutz said:


> Haven't we established that science also has its 'faith'?


Not to my knowledge.  Science is based on evidence that anyone can replicate, faith is based on stories of supernatural events that can not be replicated.


----------



## Woodznutz (Sep 23, 2022)

alang1216 said:


> Not to my knowledge.  Science is based on evidence that anyone can replicate, faith is based on stories of supernatural events that can not be replicated.


So, science (or 'anyone') can replicate evolution?


----------



## Hollie (Sep 23, 2022)

Woodznutz said:


> It's God's will that everyone has a chance for salvation and eternal life. That includes you.


That may be a part of your belief system but I have no reason to accept that as true. I think religious people of all stripes and caliber weapons need to understand that while the allure of such promises as salvation and eternal life are attractive, those promises were made  by mortal men in an age when fear and superstition governed the ebb and flow of life. The authors of the Bible are largely unknown and whomever those authors were, none claimed to have had any direct communication by any God.


----------



## Hollie (Sep 23, 2022)

Woodznutz said:


> Haven't we established that science also has its 'faith'?


No. We haven't.


----------



## Woodznutz (Sep 23, 2022)

Hollie said:


> That may be a part of your belief system but I have no reason to accept that as true. I think religious people of all stripes and caliber weapons need to understand that while the allure of such promises as salvation and eternal life are attractive, those promises were made  by mortal men in an age when fear and superstition governed the ebb and flow of life. The authors of the Bible are largely unknown and whomever those authors were, none claimed to have had any direct communication by any God.


As noted earlier, you, and most of mankind past and present, haven't been called by God to understand his plan. That will all occur later. Until then you have been not only blinded by God, but by the Devil as well.


----------



## alang1216 (Sep 23, 2022)

Woodznutz said:


> So, science (or 'anyone') can replicate evolution?


Of course.  Why do you think we get a new set of flu shots every year?


----------



## Woodznutz (Sep 23, 2022)

Hollie said:


> No. We haven't.


You must read more science papers. Mark the suppositions with a highlighter. 

Note: Have extra highlighters on hand.


----------



## Woodznutz (Sep 23, 2022)

alang1216 said:


> Of course.  Why do you think we get a new set of flu shots every year?


Are you saying that those variants are made in a lab?


----------



## Grumblenuts (Sep 23, 2022)

Woodznutz said:


> As noted earlier, you, and most of mankind past and present, haven't been called by God to understand his plan. That will all occur later. Until then you have been not only blinded by God, but by the Devil as well.


Blinded by God? What a dick! And hwell, aren't you special!


----------



## Hollie (Sep 23, 2022)

Woodznutz said:


> You must read more science papers. Mark the suppositions with a highlighter.
> 
> Note: Have extra highlighters on hand.


There are such thing in the science world as theories and laws. 

Islam claims to have corrected the errors in Christianity. Why aren't you a convert? Muhammad claims to have heard from an angel. It must be true because it's in a book.


----------



## Hollie (Sep 23, 2022)

Woodznutz said:


> As noted earlier, you, and most of mankind past and present, haven't been called by God to understand his plan. That will all occur later. Until then you have been not only blinded by God, but by the Devil as well.


Who, specifically, has been called by any God? Other than a kool-aid salesman and a guy who claimed he would hitch a ride on a comet, what evidence is there that anyone has been called by a god?

I should pass on to you that various Gods have called on me. They have told me that you are required to post your Mastercard information for a generous donation to the Holy Hollie Cash Fund. 

Thanks. The gods thank you, too.


----------



## Grumblenuts (Sep 23, 2022)

Hollie said:


> Who, specifically, has been called by any God? Other than a kool-aid salesman and a guy who claimed he would hitch a ride on a comet, what evidence is there that anyone has been called by a god?
> 
> I should pass on to you that various Gods have called on me. They have told me that you are required to post your Mastercard information for a generous donation to the Holy Hollie Cash Fund.
> 
> Thanks. The gods thank you, too.


Conversely, when you miss a call from Mother Nature it suddenly gets all too real.


----------



## alang1216 (Sep 23, 2022)

Woodznutz said:


> Are you saying that those variants are made in a lab?


No.  The genetic make up of the flu virus is subject to the same evolutionary pressures as every other living thing, but as their generations are measured in hours they easily demonstrate evolution in action.  As our vaccines reduce the population of one variant of the virus the remaining population evolves to adapt to it.


----------



## Baron Von Murderpaws (Sep 23, 2022)

Woodznutz said:


> God created the material universe "out of thin air", that is, out of _nothing (_although there is more to the story than this). Science has moved closer to demonstrating this.
> 
> 
> 
> Scientists create matter from nothing in groundbreaking experiment



1. There is no such thing as god.  Any god.

2. Scientifically speaking, there is no such thing as "nothing".  Starting with the largest particle there is in the known universe, and cascading downwards into that particle, we find it's made up of smaller particles..........and so on and so on.
There's an infinate cascading of smaller and smaller particles that make up larger ones.  

3. Stating you can "make something from nothing" is the same as stating "no two fingerprints are alike" and "no two snowflakes are alike".  ALL LIES!
Have ALL human fingerprints been taken and analyzed, since the first human appeared on this planet?  NO!
Have ALL snowflakes been singled out and analyzed over the entire existence of this planet?  NO!

Therefore, it is an outright LIE to claim that no two fingerprints are the same or that no two snowflakes are the same.
Which also can be said for "making something out of nothing", because there is ALWAYS SOMETHING THERE!


----------



## Woodznutz (Sep 23, 2022)

Hollie said:


> There are such thing in the science world as theories and laws.
> 
> Islam claims to have corrected the errors in Christianity. Why aren't you a convert? Muhammad claims to have heard from an angel. It must be true because it's in a book.


I've read the Koran. It seems like a mockery of the Bible, which may have begun with Ishmael (who is very important to Muslims).

8 And the child grew, and was weaned: and Abraham made a great feast the same day that Isaac was weaned.
9 And Sarah saw the son of Hagar the Egyptian, which she had born unto Abraham, mocking.
10 Wherefore she said unto Abraham, Cast out this bondwoman and her son: for the son of this bondwoman shall not be heir with my son, even with Isaac. Genesis 21:8-10
​​​​
​​​​​​​​​​ ac.​


----------



## Woodznutz (Sep 23, 2022)

alang1216 said:


> No.  The genetic make up of the flu virus is subject to the same evolutionary pressures as every other living thing, but as their generations are measured in hours they easily demonstrate evolution in action.  As our vaccines reduce the population of one variant of the virus the remaining population evolves to adapt to it.


Aren't those viruses really _de_volving?


----------



## Woodznutz (Sep 23, 2022)

Toffeenut Baconsmuggler said:


> 1. There is no such thing as god.  Any god.
> 
> 2. Scientifically speaking, there is no such thing as "nothing".  Starting with the largest particle there is in the known universe, and cascading downwards into that particle, we find it's made up of smaller particles..........and so on and so on.
> There's an infinate cascading of smaller and smaller particles that make up larger ones.
> ...


Stuff is made up of a 'substance' that is undetectable by science. Science is near the end of its rope in this regard.


----------



## alang1216 (Sep 23, 2022)

Woodznutz said:


> Aren't those viruses really _de_volving?


There is no such thing in biology.  Cave fish may lose their eyes but that is still evolution.


----------



## The Sage of Main Street (Sep 23, 2022)

Grumblenuts said:


> Yes, let there be light, but I'm still not following your c squared/other universe stuff.


*You Can Protect Your Illusions by Refusing to Even Think About Suggested Alternatives*

How can you follow it if you don't even believe it's possible?  It explains e=mc² and it explains Entanglement, which is the same particle going back and forth, into the fourth dimension and out at a different location in 3D at the speed of a light-year every 3 minutes.


----------



## The Sage of Main Street (Sep 23, 2022)

Grumblenuts said:


> Ridding that of the double negative seems to help:
> 
> *"God Would Let Us Believe in Him if He Existed"*


*On the Netrix, Originality Is an Act of Terrorism*

That's not the same thing, because it doesn't Beg the Question.  By the way, don't listen to the dumbed-down college graduates about what Begging the Question means.  It does not mean "which leads to another question," which is their own ignorant definition. 

It means assuming something that is then sneaked m into the conclusion.  God has no control over faith if He doesn't exist.  The fallacy dishonestly tries to prove that faith is proof that what is believed in exists.  There's a lot of money and absolute power in that contradiction.

Here's another example, which Logic professors, who are agents of the self-appointed ruling class, wouldn't dare use:  in _Marbury v. Madison,_ SCROTUS begged the question by interpreting the Constitution as giving them the right to interpret the Constitution.

Puritanical Christofascists with a fetus fetish beg the question when they make an exception to save the life of the "mother."  Only in their view is the pregnant woman a "mother" before childbirth.


----------



## The Sage of Main Street (Sep 23, 2022)

Grumblenuts said:


> The tablets containing the Ten Commandments (words) were supposedly provided to Moses before mysteriously (conveniently) disappearing, right? The Bible was written by men using words supposedly inspired by that same "word of God." All the originals then also magically disappeared, no? Here's a thought.. It's all BS!


*Mannaipulated*

Even more ridiculous is that the Hebrews, after seeing all those miracles and what Yahweh did to the Egyptians, would ever dare worship the Golden Calf.  That reaction proves that there were no plagues or opening of the Red Sea. 

 The same with all the people who are said to have witnessed Jesus's miracles.  They would have stopped the Romans from executing a miracle-worker and risked their lives to do so because if killed, they'd go straight to Heaven.


----------



## Woodznutz (Sep 23, 2022)

Grumblenuts said:


> Blinded by God? What a dick! And well, aren't you special!


Actually, I am.


----------



## The Sage of Main Street (Sep 23, 2022)

Hollie said:


> Who, specifically, has been called by any God? Other than a kool-aid salesman and a guy who claimed he would hitch a ride on a comet, what evidence is there that anyone has been called by a god?
> 
> I should pass on to you that various Gods have called on me. They have told me that you are required to post your Mastercard information for a generous donation to the Holy Hollie Cash Fund.
> 
> Thanks. The gods thank you, too.


*Sermon of a Je$u$ Salesman*

Pray
Then pay
That's the way
To make my day


----------



## The Sage of Main Street (Sep 23, 2022)

Grumblenuts said:


> Conversely, when you miss a call from Mother Nature it suddenly


*Any Good That Nature Does, Man Can Do Better*


----------



## Woodznutz (Sep 23, 2022)

Hollie said:


> Who, specifically, has been called by any God? Other than a kool-aid salesman and a guy who claimed he would hitch a ride on a comet, what evidence is there that anyone has been called by a god?


The historic evidence is the usually sudden proclamation of belief followed by unprecedented positive changes in thought and behavior, often resulting in estrangement from family and friends.

I met a fellow once who was embittered because his long-time drinking pal had suddenly 'got religion' and gave up the habit.


----------



## Hollie (Sep 23, 2022)

Woodznutz said:


> I've read the Koran. It seems like a mockery of the Bible, which may have begun with Ishmael (who is very important to Muslims).
> 
> 8 And the child grew, and was weaned: and Abraham made a great feast the same day that Isaac was weaned.
> 9 And Sarah saw the son of Hagar the Egyptian, which she had born unto Abraham, mocking.
> ...


The fact remains you will anger the gods by not converting. Your salvation depends on it.


----------



## Hollie (Sep 23, 2022)

Woodznutz said:


> The historic evidence is the usually sudden proclamation of belief followed by unprecedented positive changes in thought and behavior, often resulting in estrangement from family and friends.
> 
> I met a fellow once who was embittered because his long-time drinking pal had suddenly 'got religion' and gave up the habit.


That may be hysteric evidence but not historic evidence. 

Why would the gods call Jim Jones?


----------



## Grumblenuts (Sep 23, 2022)

The Sage of Main Street said:


> *You Can Protect Your Illusions by Refusing to Even Think About Suggested Alternatives*
> 
> How can you follow it if you don't even believe it's possible?  It explains e=mc² and it explains Entanglement, which is the same particle going back and forth, into the fourth dimension and out at a different location in 3D at the speed of a light-year every 3 minutes.


I wouldn't have replied at all if I were truly unwilling to think about it. I just think you're wrong.
Even Einstein couldn't find c²=m/e accurate so had to introduce a huge fudge factor. The c² term being a constant is all that's significant. m/e is rendered directly proportional, i.e., energy equals mass times some constant. It doesn't explain your notion of quantum entanglement because there's no space in counterspace for energy to travel through period, let alone over time. It's longitudinal, i.e. instantaneous. But please do supply a link to anything supporting the notion of entanglements depending upon a "3 minutes" constant. I'm all ears.


----------



## Fort Fun Indiana (Sep 23, 2022)

Calypso Jones said:


> Did you catch that....graphene.
> 
> I call BULLSHIT.
> 
> There's an agenda here and it aint science and it aint creation.


Do you know what graphene is?


----------



## Woodznutz (Sep 23, 2022)

Hollie said:


> The fact remains you will anger the gods by not converting. Your salvation depends on it.


It's a done deal between God and me.


----------



## Woodznutz (Sep 23, 2022)

Hollie said:


> That may be hysteric evidence but not historic evidence.
> 
> Why would the gods call Jim Jones?


They didn't. 

Matthew 24:11
And many *false* prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.


----------



## Grumblenuts (Sep 23, 2022)

Woodznutz said:


> They didn't.
> 
> Matthew 24:11
> And many *false* prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.


So who called Jim then? And what happened to all his dead followers? Not one "saved"? Link?


----------



## Woodznutz (Sep 23, 2022)

Grumblenuts said:


> So who called Jim then? And what happened to all his dead followers? Not one "saved"? Link?


Jones' victims aren't saved or lost at this time.


----------



## Grumblenuts (Sep 23, 2022)

So says the flock.


----------



## Hollie (Sep 23, 2022)

Woodznutz said:


> They didn't.
> 
> Matthew 24:11
> And many *false* prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.


How do you know Jim Jones was a false prophet? The actions of the Christian gods show a real disregard for human life. Maybe the gods decided a smaller scale extermination was warranted.


----------



## Hollie (Sep 23, 2022)

Woodznutz said:


> Jones' victims aren't saved or lost at this time.



How do you know?


----------



## Grumblenuts (Sep 24, 2022)

Fort Fun Indiana said:


> Do you know what graphene is?


Studying graphene inevitably leads one straight down a bridal path to "ballisticity."


> 1 : *extremely and usually suddenly excited, upset, or angry* : wild He went ballistic when he saw the dent in his car. and the crowd goes ballistic. 2 : of or relating to the science of the motion of projectiles in flight. 3 exercise : being or characterized by repeated bouncing ballistic stretching.


Listening to you attempt to mouth this at that point, the horse then bucks you off directly into a massive mud puddle.


----------



## SweetSue92 (Sep 24, 2022)

Woodznutz said:


> God created the material universe "out of thin air", that is, out of _nothing (_although there is more to the story than this). Science has moved closer to demonstrating this.
> 
> 
> 
> Scientists create matter from nothing in groundbreaking experiment



I have read about five posts here and I already see that there are many posters here who really, REALLY need and want God not to exist.

So it is.

And so it has always been.

But "as for me and my house, we will praise the Lord"--Joshua 24:15


----------



## Woodznutz (Sep 24, 2022)

Hollie said:


> How do you know Jim Jones was a false prophet? The actions of the Christian gods show a real disregard for human life. Maybe the gods decided a smaller scale extermination was warranted.


 God isn't the deceiver, Satan is. And JJ was one of his disciples.


----------



## Woodznutz (Sep 24, 2022)

Hollie said:


> How do you know?


Judgment day is yet to come.


----------



## Woodznutz (Sep 24, 2022)

SweetSue92 said:


> I have read about five posts here and I already see that there are many posters here who really, REALLY need and want God not to exist.
> 
> So it is.
> 
> ...


God's way seems difficult. Most take the easy road.


----------



## Hollie (Sep 24, 2022)

Woodznutz said:


> God isn't the deceiver, Satan is. And JJ was one of his disciples.


Too bad the gods aren't interested in countering the Satan character. 

How do you JJ wasn't a true believer and acting on commands from the gods?


----------



## Hollie (Sep 24, 2022)

Woodznutz said:


> Judgment day is yet to come.


How do you know?

Do you spend your life in trembling fear that the gods are going to show their love and mercy by destroying humanity.... again?

Why not find some gods who instill hope and brightness?


----------



## Woodznutz (Sep 24, 2022)

Hollie said:


> How do you know?


It's in the book.


Hollie said:


> Do you spend your life in trembling fear that the gods are going to show their love and mercy by destroying humanity.... again?


God will save mankind from destroying itself, for the sake of the church.


Hollie said:


> Why not find some gods who instill hope and brightness?


That God and I found each other.


----------



## Woodznutz (Sep 24, 2022)

Hollie said:


> How do you JJ wasn't a true believer and acting on commands from the gods?


Maybe God allows such deception, for now. Such events should be a warning to everyone. True Christians would never have fallen for JJ's lies.


----------



## Hollie (Sep 24, 2022)

Woodznutz said:


> It's in the book.
> 
> God will save mankind from destroying itself, for the sake of the church.
> 
> That God and I found each other.


The gods will save mankind by destroying mankind?


----------



## Hollie (Sep 24, 2022)

Woodznutz said:


> Maybe God allows such deception, for now. Such events should be a warning to everyone. True Christians would never have fallen for JJ's lies.


Ah, the “True Christian Scotsman” analogy.


----------



## Woodznutz (Sep 24, 2022)

Hollie said:


> The gods will save mankind by destroying mankind?


The end time 'tribulation' is manmade. We are going to bring it upon ourselves. God is involved as it is the violation of his laws that will bring it to pass. He need not be directly involved. 

Walk too close to the edge and you are at risk of God's law of gravity,


----------



## Woodznutz (Sep 24, 2022)

Hollie said:


> Ah, the “True Christian Scotsman” analogy.


"No true Christian" poisons nearly a thousand people to death.


----------



## Hollie (Sep 24, 2022)

Woodznutz said:


> The end time 'tribulation' is manmade. We are going to bring it upon ourselves. God is involved as it is the violation of his laws that will bring it to pass. He need not be directly involved.
> 
> Walk too close to the edge and you are at risk of God's law of gravity,


You just made the gods irrelevant.


----------



## Hollie (Sep 24, 2022)

Woodznutz said:


> "No true Christian" poisons nearly a thousand people to death.


Small potatoes vs. the numbers killed by the gods.


----------



## The Sage of Main Street (Sep 24, 2022)

Grumblenuts said:


> I wouldn't have replied at all if I were truly unwilling to think about it. I just think you're wrong.
> Even Einstein couldn't find c²=m/e accurate so had to introduce a huge fudge factor. The c² term being a constant is all that's significant. m/e is rendered directly proportional, i.e., energy equals mass times some constant. It doesn't explain your notion of quantum entanglement because there's no space in counterspace for energy to travel through period, let alone over time. It's longitudinal, i.e. instantaneous. But please do supply a link to anything supporting the notion of entanglements depending upon a "3 minutes" constant.


*Links Are Part of a Chain.  Break Out of Them.*

Einstein stumbled upon this velocity, even though the dogma is that it can't exist in this limited universe.  So he denied that it was the formula of a collision, as in a two-ton vehicle traveling at 100 mph hits a wall with a force expressed by the multiplication of those two factors.  But it's too much of a coincidence to be anything other than that.  If physicists, who are narrow-minded conformists, would dare to try to come up with a way to investigate the first collision after fission, they would discover what is theoretically impossible: that the particle was going at the square of the speed that is supposed to be the maximum velocity.  So the theory is wrong.  All collisions after the first are slowed down by it. 

 Anyway, the break-up of the Strong Force is the real energy here.  True to their sniveling character, Educated Eunuchs shy away from focusing on that.  Like c² being too fast, the Strong Force is also too strong to exist in this universe, so it must transmit its strength at the interface between universes.

You're begging the question by assuming that the outside universe is linear, supposing that it is merely an array of projections from points in 3D.  That assumption is probably where nonsense like String Theory comes from.


----------



## The Sage of Main Street (Sep 24, 2022)

Grumblenuts said:


> So who called Jim then? And what happened to all his dead followers? Not one "saved"? Link?


*Kool-Aid Junkies Never Change*

Those victims all got reincarnated as Democrats.  They believe they were built back better.


----------



## The Sage of Main Street (Sep 24, 2022)

Hollie said:


> Too bad the gods aren't interested in countering the Satan character.
> 
> How do you JJ wasn't a true believer and acting on commands from the gods?


*In Gaia We Trust*

Jones's followers killed a Democratic Congressman, so they couldn't have been acting on orders from Satan.


----------



## Woodznutz (Sep 24, 2022)

Hollie said:


> Small potatoes vs. the numbers killed by the gods.


God does have to orchestrate mercy killings from time to time. There have been many since the flood. He also allows war to kill millions on either side, but he decides the winner, especially if it involves the descendants of Israel.


----------



## Hollie (Sep 24, 2022)

Woodznutz said:


> God does have to orchestrate mercy killings from time to time. There have been many since the flood. He also allows war to kill millions on either side, but he decides the winner, especially if it involves the descendants of Israel.


The gods do mercy killings? He allows wars? 

I think you’re in a really dark place.


----------



## Grumblenuts (Sep 24, 2022)

The Sage of Main Street said:


> If physicists, who are narrow-minded conformists, would dare to try to come up with a way to investigate the first collision after fission, they would discover what is theoretically impossible: that the particle was going at the square of the speed that is supposed to be the maximum velocity.


Presume I'm such a physicist from Missouri. Show me.. something!..


----------



## Grumblenuts (Sep 24, 2022)

The Sage of Main Street said:


> You're begging the question by assuming that the outside universe is linear, supposing that it is merely an array of projections from points in 3D.


I am a devout subscriber to K.I.S.S. theory, which btw would clearly never support string theory. I'm also neither presuming nor promoting a linear universe. However, I do still allow for the possibility. Believe what you will.


----------



## Grumblenuts (Sep 25, 2022)

The Sage of Main Street said:


> Einstein stumbled upon this velocity, even though the dogma is that it can't exist in this limited universe. So he denied that it was the formula of a collision, as in a two-ton vehicle traveling at 100 mph hits a wall with a force expressed by the multiplication of those two factors. But it's too much of a coincidence to be anything other than that.


This is simply all wrong. The units worked out so Einstein ran with it is all. {Actually Maxwell derived the equation first, IIRC, but Einstein correctly embellished upon its significance before going nuts and denying the Aether.} Anyway, c has the units of velocity while c squared has units of velocity squared. Show me where Einstein ever denied that force x distance yielded work or energy "as in a two-ton vehicle traveling at 100 mph hits a wall with a force expressed by the multiplication of those two factors"? The "force" is actually one of your "two factors" -- "two-ton."  Collisions require vector considerations. Say two cars of the same mass, travelling in directly opposite directions, collide elastically. They now both have zero velocity and momentum, the energy being dissipated as heat. If they collided inelastically they would simply bounce off, now travelling in the opposite direction at their original speed. Under no circumstances does a squaring of the speed or "velocity" result, even in QM.


----------



## Grumblenuts (Sep 25, 2022)

And finally,


The Sage of Main Street said:


> You're begging the question by assuming that the outside universe is linear, supposing that it is merely an array of projections from points in 3D.


No, I do not assume that whatsoever. Quite the opposite. I presume our universe to be nonlinear and any "outside universe" to be as well. In no way can counterspace be envisioned simply as "an array of projections from points in 3D." That's just ridiculous.


----------



## Grumblenuts (Sep 25, 2022)

Eric Dollard:


> The velocity at which light propagates, the luminal velocity, c, is a property of the dielectric itself, be it aether, or 10-C oil. This velocity has no relation to the motion of the transmitter itself, nor are its transmitted waves material projections. Nothing is “shot” out of the moving laser. The electric field can only “soak into the medium” at the rate defined by that medium. Light can only travel at luminal velocity as defined by the dielectric medium and its dimensional relation of one over c square, a numeric constant. Light is not a material projection, it is an inductive process, a process of the aether.


----------



## Woodznutz (Sep 25, 2022)

Hollie said:


> The gods do mercy killings? He allows wars?
> 
> I think you’re in a really dark place.


 Most of the world is in a dark place (I'm ok though).


----------



## Hollie (Sep 25, 2022)

Woodznutz said:


> Most of the world is in a dark place (I'm ok though).


I guess we can’t rely on any gods to help us.


----------



## Likkmee (Sep 25, 2022)

Hollie said:


> I guess we can’t rely on any gods to help us.


Unless you worship one who is an electrician


----------



## Grumblenuts (Sep 25, 2022)

Likkmee said:


> Unless you worship one who is an electrician


Even then only one that's accumulated no excess wealth.


----------



## james bond (Sep 25, 2022)

Grumblenuts said:


> The "force" is actually one of your "two factors" -- "two-ton." Collisions require vector considerations. Say two cars of the same mass, travelling in directly opposite directions, collide elastically. They now both have zero velocity and momentum, the energy being dissipated as heat. If they collided inelastically they would simply bounce off, now travelling in the opposite direction at their original speed. Under no circumstances does a squaring of the speed or "velocity" result, even in QM


I'm not sure what the physics of QM may lead to.  What did e=mc2 lead to?  It led to the first engine that could be used in bicycles and autos and other machines, but it also led to the h-bomb.  Will it lead to something that could blow up the world?  It's just in our nature unless God can stop/help us.


----------



## Hollie (Sep 25, 2022)

Woodznutz said:


> "No true Christian" poisons nearly a thousand people to death.


The Christian gods, per the fable, wiped the planet clean of all but a handful of people.


----------



## Grumblenuts (Sep 25, 2022)

I don't recall the fable saying any of those volunteered to die.


> approximately 900 Peoples Temple members were told by Jones that it was time to commit "revolutionary suicide," according to the Rolling Stone account. Some willingly drank a flavored drink mix laced with deadly cyanide and other chemicals, and even gave it to their children.


----------



## Woodznutz (Sep 25, 2022)

Hollie said:


> The Christian gods, per the fable, wiped the planet clean of all but a handful of people.


It saved the future of humanity.


----------



## The Sage of Main Street (Sep 26, 2022)

Grumblenuts said:


> Presume I'm such a physicist from Missouri. Show me.. something!..


*Science Has Become a Superstition, With Claims Like "Beyond Human Understanding"*

You intentionally ask too much, as if I had to have all the equipment and new mathematical formulas or I can be dismissed.  I challenge anybody with all the tools to investigate beyond the assumptions of the present authoritarian irrationalism.


----------



## The Sage of Main Street (Sep 26, 2022)

Grumblenuts said:


> This is simply all wrong. The units worked out so Einstein ran with it is all. {Actually Maxwell derived the equation first, IIRC, but Einstein correctly embellished upon its significance before going nuts and denying the Aether.} Anyway, c has the units of velocity while c squared has units of velocity squared. Show me where Einstein ever denied that force x distance yielded work or energy "as in a two-ton vehicle traveling at 100 mph hits a wall with a force expressed by the multiplication of those two factors"? The "force" is actually one of your "two factors" -- "two-ton."  Collisions require vector considerations. Say two cars of the same mass, travelling in directly opposite directions, collide elastically. They now both have zero velocity and momentum, the energy being dissipated as heat. If they collided inelastically they would simply bounce off, now travelling in the opposite direction at their original speed. Under no circumstances does a squaring of the speed or "velocity" result, even in QM.


*Postclassical Witch Doctorates Have Cast a Spell on Your Mental Flexibility*

Again, you are intentionally misunderstanding this rational explanation.  I didn't say that the collision results in c², I said that the fissioned particle is released at the velocity of c², which it has to acquire from another universe, in which it is partially embedded.  That is a booster rocket.


----------



## The Sage of Main Street (Sep 26, 2022)

Likkmee said:


> Unless you worship one who is an electrician


*TO BE IS TO OBEY*

Lucifer means "bringer of light."  Prometheus also brought light by teaching man how to make and control fire.  There is something suspicious about religion making Lucifer the ultimate source of all evil. The Greek chief God chained Prometheus to a rock way over in the Caucasus as punishment for helping mankind overcome Nature.

And _devil_ comes from a word meaning "slander" or "criticize, dissent from."  All totalitarians want their subjects to shut up, not talk back, not question absolute authority.


----------



## The Sage of Main Street (Sep 26, 2022)

Woodznutz said:


> It saved the future of humanity.


*Pol Wants a Cracker*

It was imitated by Pol Pot, the hero of all who imagine themselves as Supreme Beings or imagine a Supreme Being exists so that they can feel that they themselves are part of a Higher Power.


----------



## Woodznutz (Sep 26, 2022)

The Sage of Main Street said:


> *TO BE IS TO OBEY*
> 
> Lucifer means "bringer of light."  Prometheus also brought light by teaching man how to make and control fire.  There is something suspicious about religion making Lucifer the ultimate source of all evil. The Greek chief God chained Prometheus to a rock way over in the Caucasus as punishment for helping mankind overcome Nature.
> 
> And _devil_ comes from a word meaning "slander" or "criticize, dissent from."  All totalitarians want their subjects to shut up, not talk back, not question absolute authority.


The _en_*light*_enment_ that Lucifer brought was that_ revelation_ wasn't needed by man. Man bought it hook, line, and sinker. It is taught from kindergarten through grad school, with predictable results.


----------



## Grumblenuts (Sep 26, 2022)

The Sage of Main Street said:


> *Postclassical Witch Doctorates Have Cast a Spell on Your Mental Flexibility*
> 
> Again, you are intentionally misunderstanding this rational explanation.  I didn't say that the collision results in c², I said that the fissioned particle is released at the velocity of c², which it has to acquire from another universe, in which it is partially embedded.  That is a booster rocket.


No, I heard you fine the first time. I simply disagreed  and had the audacity to explain why .
Still do. I also don't give out thumbs downs like candy, especially without responding. Seems too pointlessly, uh,.. what was that word again? Oh, yeah.. dismissive!


----------



## Grumblenuts (Sep 26, 2022)

I said "It's longitudinal, i.e. instantaneous." To which you responded:


The Sage of Main Street said:


> I said that the fissioned particle is released at the velocity of c², which it has to acquire from another universe, in which it is partially embedded. That is a booster rocket.


Is this supposed "coincidence" really all you're still basing this upon? Is instantaneous still not fast enough for you? I shared an unusually cogent and comprehensive paragraph from Eric Dollard, who can hardly be accused of being a "narrow-minded conformist." And,.. _crickets_. Have you grokked yet that c² does not even yield units of "velocity"? Meters squared per second squared? Sounds more like an acceleration or something, no? Not "from another universe." From counterspace. An absolutely necessary part of this universe. The hidden half. Regardless of what "others" may or may not be "out" there. "K.I.S.S." meaning why go looking out there for answers when all that's needed is clearly already here?


----------



## Fort Fun Indiana (Oct 3, 2022)

SweetSue92 said:


> I have read about five posts here and I already see that there are many posters here who really, REALLY need and want God not to exist.
> 
> So it is.
> 
> ...


Nah, you don't even think that. Just trolling for attention, as always.


----------



## SweetSue92 (Oct 4, 2022)

Fort Fun Indiana said:


> Nah, you don't even think that. Just trolling for attention, as always.



You can't imagine what I think and know. Sadly.


----------



## surada (Oct 4, 2022)

Woodznutz said:


> It saved the future of humanity.



Are you kidding? It's a myth from Sumer.


----------



## Woodznutz (Oct 4, 2022)

surada said:


> Are you kidding? It's a myth from Sumer.


It's happening again; the corruption of mankind and of the earth.

"As in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man."

We are now living with total disregard for anything that resembles sanity, never mind morality.


----------



## james bond (Oct 15, 2022)

Hollie said:


> The gods do mercy killings? He allows wars?
> 
> I think you’re in a really dark place.


It's all due to original sin.  God has already killed the world with a global flood.  He's ready to do it again, but this time there's a Savior.

It IS a dark place, but some see the Light.


----------



## Hollie (Oct 16, 2022)

james bond said:


> It's all due to original sin.  God has already killed the world with a global flood.  He's ready to do it again, but this time there's a Savior.
> 
> It IS a dark place, but some see the Light.


I’m afraid your dark place of hoping for some godly apocalypse is retrograde.


----------



## Hollie (Oct 16, 2022)

Woodznutz said:


> It saved the future of humanity.


I think basic biology will tell you that incestuous and familial relations would never save humanity.


----------



## Hollie (Oct 16, 2022)

The Sage of Main Street said:


> *Science Has Become a Superstition, With Claims Like "Beyond Human Understanding"*
> 
> You intentionally ask too much, as if I had to have all the equipment and new mathematical formulas or I can be dismissed.  I challenge anybody with all the tools to investigate beyond the assumptions of the present authoritarian irrationalism.


It’s not the science community that uses slogans such as “*Beyond Human Understanding".* That slogan seems to be unique among the religious to describe their gods…. the same gods assigned myriad human attributes.


----------



## Woodznutz (Oct 16, 2022)

Hollie said:


> I think basic biology will tell you that incestuous and familial relations would never save humanity.


Genetically weakened and diseased people, through incest and inbreeding, were cleansed from the earth by the flood. Noah was "perfect  in his generations" (genealogy) thus he brought genetic strength to his offspring, which repopulated the earth.


----------



## Woodznutz (Oct 16, 2022)

Hollie said:


> It’s not the science community that uses slogans such as “*Beyond Human Understanding".* That slogan seems to be unique among the religious to describe their gods…. the same gods assigned myriad human attributes.


Spirit-led people understand many things that are 'beyond human understanding'. This includes some very practical, down-to-earth things.

You have no doubt heard someone say to another, "I don't understand why you did that". And there would be no logical reason why that person did what they did. But the spirit-led person knows exactly why they did what they did, but of course, would not be able to explain it to either of the other persons.


----------



## Hollie (Oct 16, 2022)

Woodznutz said:


> Genetically weakened and diseased people, through incest and inbreeding, were cleansed from the earth by the flood. Noah was "perfect  in his generations" (genealogy) thus he brought genetic strength to his offspring, which repopulated the earth.


All those little Johnnie’s and Janey’s killed in the flood myth were
genetically weakened and diseased? Wowza. 

The gods then made allowances for Noah and his immediate family to repopulate the planet by way of incestuous and familial relations?

Thank god I’m not religious.


----------



## Hollie (Oct 16, 2022)

Woodznutz said:


> Spirit-led people understand many things that are 'beyond human understanding'. This includes some very practical, down-to-earth things.
> 
> You have no doubt heard someone say to another, "I don't understand why you did that". And there would be no logical reason why that person did what they did. But the spirit-led person knows exactly why they did what they did, but of course, would not be able to explain it to either of the other persons.


Tell us about some of those things 'beyond human understanding' that spirit-led people understand. 

I missed the part how things 'beyond human understanding' could be understood by humans. Seems like a bit of an obvious contradiction but where gods are involved, things such as non-contradictory statements seem to go flying out the window.


----------



## Woodznutz (Oct 16, 2022)

Hollie said:


> All those little Johnnie’s and Janey’s killed in the flood myth were
> genetically weakened and diseased? Wowza.


Everything was corrupted, including the people.


----------



## Woodznutz (Oct 16, 2022)

Hollie said:


> Tell us about some of those things 'beyond human understanding' that spirit-led people understand.
> 
> I missed the part how things 'beyond human understanding' could be understood by humans. Seems like a bit of an obvious contradiction but where gods are involved, things such as non-contradictory statements seem to go flying out the window.


We know why the world is screwed up. Your best and brightest are at a loss. 

God's Holy Spirit gives the believer insight regarding the mind of God. On a practical level it's a great problem solver. It also provides the resources, mainly in the form of willpower, needed to solve problems. Something we need more of, wouldn't you agree?


----------



## Hollie (Oct 16, 2022)

Woodznutz said:


> Everything was corrupted, including the people.


You may have convinced yourself that’s true but the implication is that the gods simply retaliated against the humans they are alleged to have created. 

Why did humanity have to suffer as a result of poor design by the gods?


----------



## Hollie (Oct 16, 2022)

Woodznutz said:


> God's Holy Spirit gives the believer insight regarding the mind of God. On a practical level it's a great problem solver. It also provides the resources, mainly in the form of willpower, needed to solve problems. Something we need more of, wouldn't you agree?


You know the mind of god? That makes you pretty special. Have you considered a ministry? That seems to be the path taken by so many people who make the claim similar to yours and they fleece the flock for fabulous wealth.


----------



## Woodznutz (Oct 16, 2022)

Hollie said:


> You may have convinced yourself that’s true but the implication is that the gods simply retaliated against the humans they are alleged to have created.
> 
> Why did humanity have to suffer as a result of poor design by the gods?


 God allowed demons too much access to humanity before the flood (demons want humanity destroyed). They were more restricted after. However, demon activity is rampant today.


----------



## Woodznutz (Oct 16, 2022)

Hollie said:


> You know the mind of god? That makes you pretty special. Have you considered a ministry? That seems to be the path taken by so many people who make the claim similar to yours and they fleece the flock for fabulous wealth.


Of course, I know the mind of God. Yep, that makes me, and all true believers special, but only as we live according to Godly knowledge. 

 I have a ministry, have had for decades. I serve my family, my job, my friends, my community, my country, mankind in general, and myself of course (I pay special attention to myself, like one should a prized work animal).


----------



## CrusaderFrank (Oct 16, 2022)

Hollie said:


> This would seem to prove the gods were never required as creationers from nothingness.


Right. Same way if you leave a block of marble exposed to the elements, you’ll eventually get an exact duplicate of Michelangelo’s David


----------



## Woodznutz (Oct 16, 2022)

Blues Man said:


> Just the opposite.
> 
> Science has demonstrated there is no need for a god for the universe to exist


God is always present, in the laws of physics, which he authored and upholds.


----------



## Hollie (Oct 16, 2022)

CrusaderFrank said:


> Right. Same way if you leave a block of marble exposed to the elements, you’ll eventually get an exact duplicate of Michelangelo’s David


Weird how we see 747’s assembling after a tornado plows through a junkyard and weathering turns stone into art. 

Weird how inanimate objects evolve.


----------



## Hollie (Oct 16, 2022)

Woodznutz said:


> Of course, I know the mind of God. Yep, that makes me, and all true believers special, but only as we live according to Godly knowledge.
> 
> I have a ministry, have had for decades. I serve my family, my job, my friends, my community, my country, mankind in general, and myself of course (I pay special attention to myself, like one should a prized work animal).


Odd how others know the mind of the gods and have totally different understandings of that godly knowledge.


----------



## Blues Man (Oct 16, 2022)

Woodznutz said:


> God is always present, in the laws of physics, which he authored and upholds.


Your opinion.


----------



## CrusaderFrank (Oct 16, 2022)

Woodznutz said:


> God allowed demons too much access to humanity before the flood (demons want humanity destroyed). They were more restricted after. However, demon activity is rampant today.


I thought Zuckerberg was a lizard, not a demon


----------



## Grumblenuts (Oct 16, 2022)

Woodznutz said:


> God is always present, in the laws of physics, which he authored and upholds.


Are these "laws of physics" listed anywhere? You know, somewhere handy, like the Bible or something?


----------



## Woodznutz (Oct 16, 2022)

Hollie said:


> Odd how others know the mind of the gods and have totally different understandings of that godly knowledge.


They are responsible for their knowledge, I'm responsible for mine. It's all good.


----------



## Woodznutz (Oct 16, 2022)

Blues Man said:


> Your opinion.


My belief.


----------



## Woodznutz (Oct 16, 2022)

Grumblenuts said:


> Are these "laws of physics" listed anywhere? You know, somewhere handy, like the Bible or something?


I think you can find them online somewhere.


----------



## Grumblenuts (Oct 16, 2022)

Woodznutz said:


> I think you can find them online somewhere.


Wow, your gods must be real dicks.


----------



## Woodznutz (Oct 16, 2022)

Grumblenuts said:


> Wow, your gods must be real dicks.


Or just take a few science courses. They are filled with God's laws. Science is the study of the creation.


----------



## Grumblenuts (Oct 16, 2022)

*"Thou shalt create and destroy energy willy nilly and at the same time too!"*


----------



## Blues Man (Oct 17, 2022)

Woodznutz said:


> My belief.


Same difference.


----------



## Grumblenuts (Oct 17, 2022)

Woodznutz said:


> Science is the study of the creation.


Oddly enough, none of the online dictionaries seem to provide that definition?


----------



## Woodznutz (Oct 17, 2022)

Grumblenuts said:


> Oddly enough, none of the online dictionaries seem to provide that definition?


The first one I searched did.

sci·ence
[ˈsīəns]

NOUN

the intellectual and practical activity encompassing the systematic study of the structure and behaviour of_ the physical and natural world* _through observation and experiment.
* The Creation (asterisk and italics mine).


----------



## Grumblenuts (Oct 17, 2022)

Not much "the creation", innit..

You're entitled to your opinions and beliefs. Not to force your made up facts and definitions upon everyone else.


----------



## Woodznutz (Oct 17, 2022)

Grumblenuts said:


> You're entitled to your opinions and beliefs. Not to force your made up facts and definitions upon everyone else.


 Your made-up beliefs regarding the origin of the universe are the only ones forced on people.


----------



## james bond (Oct 17, 2022)

Hollie said:


> I’m afraid your dark place of hoping for some godly apocalypse is retrograde.


I doubt there's many who are _hoping_ for the apocalypse including me.  Yet, it's given that it will happen.  Likely, after some of us are dead in 2060 as predicted by Sir Isaac Newton after studying the Bible.


----------



## Hollie (Oct 17, 2022)

james bond said:


> I doubt there's many who are _hoping_ for the apocalypse including me.  Yet, it's given that it will happen.  Likely, after some of us are dead in 2060 as predicted by Sir Isaac Newton after studying the Bible.


Living your life in trembling fear of fables about angry gods coming to destroy the world, redux, is a sad existence.


----------



## Grumblenuts (Oct 17, 2022)

Woodznutz said:


> Your made-up beliefs regarding the origin of the universe are the only ones forced on people.


For example? Are guns involved?


----------



## Woodznutz (Oct 17, 2022)

Grumblenuts said:


> For example? Are guns involved?


Compulsory public education/truancy laws.


----------



## Grumblenuts (Oct 17, 2022)

Woodznutz said:


> Compulsory public education/truancy laws.


Ah, they've outlawed religious and charter schools? Home schooling? At the point of a gun? Who knew? It really wasn't me, I swear!


----------



## Here and there (Oct 17, 2022)

Woodznutz said:


> God created the material universe "out of thin air", that is, out of _nothing (_although there is more to the story than this). Science has moved closer to demonstrating this.
> 
> 
> 
> Scientists create matter from nothing in groundbreaking experiment


Science and physics never waste a minute on religion. 
Their discoveries have nothing in common with the existence of a god. Never did. 
It's a long stretch to link the two.


----------



## Woodznutz (Oct 18, 2022)

Here and there said:


> Science and physics never waste a minute on religion.
> Their discoveries have nothing in common with the existence of a god. Never did.
> It's a long stretch to link the two.


Christians don't rely on science to make that link.


----------



## Woodznutz (Oct 18, 2022)

Grumblenuts said:


> Ah, they've outlawed religious and charter schools? Home schooling? At the point of a gun? Who knew? It really wasn't me, I swear!


Those in public schools have to drink the Kool-Aid.


----------



## surada (Oct 18, 2022)

Woodznutz said:


> Genetically weakened and diseased people, through incest and inbreeding, were cleansed from the earth by the flood. Noah was "perfect  in his generations" (genealogy) thus he brought genetic strength to his offspring, which repopulated the earth.



There was no world wide flood. It's a morality tale based on an ancient Sumerian myth.


----------



## Woodznutz (Oct 18, 2022)

surada said:


> There was no world wide flood. It's a morality tale based on an ancient Sumerian myth.


The flood story is written as an actual event, not as a morality tale, as are others found in the bible.


----------



## Woodznutz (Oct 18, 2022)

Woodznutz said:


> Your made-up beliefs regarding the origin of the universe are the only ones forced on people.


Afterthought.

With the discoveries of the James Webb telescope science is rethinking the origin of the universe...again.


----------



## surada (Oct 18, 2022)

Woodznutz said:


> The flood story is written as an actual event, not as a morality tale, as are others found in the bible.



Nope. The Euphrates river basin flooded from time to time with spring snowmelt from the Zagros mountains and spring rains.. that's what formed the delta south of Basra. In late summer the river is very low. 

Even the Old Testament Jews knew it was a morality tale. There's zero geological evidence for a world wide footprint, but there's flood sediment 150 miles wide and 350 miles South. It's been thoroughly explored by geologists. Core samples don't lie.


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## Woodznutz (Oct 18, 2022)

surada said:


> Nope. The Euphrates river basin flooded from time to time with spring snowmelt from the Zagros mountains and spring rains.. that's what formed the delta south of Basra. In late summer the river is very low.
> 
> Even the Old Testament Jews knew it was a morality tale. There's zero geological evidence for a world wide footprint, but there's flood sediment 150 miles wide and 350 miles South. It's been thoroughly explored by geologists. Core samples don't lie.


Science insists on uniform global evidence of the flood. However, based on the nature of the flood, and the geology of the earth, this evidence cannot exist. Sadly, many Christians reject the flood story because of this.


----------



## james bond (Oct 18, 2022)

Hollie said:


> Living your life in trembling fear of fables about angry gods coming to destroy the world, redux, is a sad existence.


We have AGW.  The climate is getting warmer.  Just follow the daily weather forecasts and add it up.

However, I think that's only a little part of the signs.  We will have _eschaton_.

“The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything in it will be laid bare.” This is the culmination of a series of events called “the day of the Lord,” the time when God will intervene in human history for the purpose of judgment. At that time, all that God has created, “the heavens and the earth” 2 Peter 3:10

The timing of this event, according to most Bible scholars, is at the end of the 1000-year period called the millennium. During these 1000 years, Christ will reign on earth as King in Jerusalem, sitting on the throne of David.  

Heh.  Is it any wonder the atheists/ags started measuring the universe and Earth times as billions of years instead of thousands?  They, including you, knew they were doomed from the Bible.


----------



## surada (Oct 18, 2022)

Woodznutz said:


> Science insists on uniform global evidence of the flood. However, based on the nature of the flood, and the geology of the earth, this evidence cannot exist. Sadly, many Christians reject the flood story because of this.



Flood sediment is easy to identify with core samples. Engineers have 10s of thousands of them from oil exploration in Iraq, Saudi Arabia, etc. What's your field?


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## Woodznutz (Oct 18, 2022)

surada said:


> Flood sediment is easy to identify with core samples. Engineers have 10s of thousands of them from oil exploration in Iraq, Saudi Arabia, etc. What's your field?


What conclusion have they reached regarding the flood?


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## surada (Oct 18, 2022)

Woodznutz said:


> What conclusion have they reached regarding the flood?



It's a fantastic story of redemption borrowed from Sumer, the Akkadians and the Canaanites. It's didactic literature.


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## Woodznutz (Oct 18, 2022)

surada said:


> It's a fantastic story of redemption borrowed from Sumer, the Akkadians and the Canaanites. It's didactic literature.


 They got all that from their core samples?


----------



## Grumblenuts (Oct 18, 2022)

Woodznutz said:


> Afterthought.
> 
> With the discoveries of the James Webb telescope science is rethinking the origin of the universe...again.


"Science" can't think.(*) People think about nature. Science is just a noun for describing _that activity__*_ done systematically.


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## Woodznutz (Oct 18, 2022)

Grumblenuts said:


> "Science" can't think.(*) People think about nature. Science is just a noun for describing _that activity__*_ done systematically.


Tell that to those who write science articles. They always use the term the same way that I have used it. And, most definitions of the term allow for it.


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## surada (Oct 18, 2022)

Woodznutz said:


> They got all that from their core samples?



Yes. There's thousands of clay tablets that tell the story of Gilgamesh myth in Sumer, Ras Shamra and Dilmun that predate the Jewish people by a thousand years.


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## Woodznutz (Oct 18, 2022)

surada said:


> Yes. There's thousands of clay tablets that tell the story of Gilgamesh myth in Sumer, Ras Shamra and Dilmun that predate the Jewish people by a thousand years.


Was the flood story written as myth by those peoples? The bible presents it as an actual event.


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## surada (Oct 18, 2022)

Woodznutz said:


> The flood story was written as history, not news.



Yes.  Disasters are always remembered. ... and embellished as myth in Bronze Age societies. The Euphrates river basin did flood from time to time. The barges hauling beer, grain and livestock downriver river broke loose and ended up in the Bahrain archipelago... 2900 BC.


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## james bond (Oct 18, 2022)

Hollie said:


> Living your life in trembling fear of fables about angry gods coming to destroy the world, redux, is a sad existence.


The end of the world will work out for the believers in Christ, but for the others not so much.  It means we look forward to joy.


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## Hollie (Oct 18, 2022)

james bond said:


> We have AGW.  The climate is getting warmer.  Just follow the daily weather forecasts and add it up.
> 
> However, I think that's only a little part of the signs.  We will have _eschaton_.
> 
> ...


What does AGW have to do with cut and paste Bible verses?

Otherwise, because your life is consumed by fear of gods who are coming to destroy you, maybe see if medication can help your anxiety and angst.


----------



## Hollie (Oct 18, 2022)

james bond said:


> The end of the world will work out for the believers in Christ, but for the others not so much.  It means we look forward to joy.



A lovely fable - angry gods coming back to wipe the planet clean of humans. How nice you’re waiting. 

Have you considered that such a warped and retrograde worldview might account for the personality flaw that afflicts the hyper-religious.


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## Fort Fun Indiana (Oct 18, 2022)

SweetSue92 said:


> You can't imagine what I think and know. Sadly.


Sometimes, I definitely can, especially when you are putting in a bad act. That's what bad acting is.


----------



## Fort Fun Indiana (Oct 18, 2022)

Woodznutz said:


> God allowed demons too much access to humanity before the flood (demons want humanity destroyed). They were more restricted after. However, demon activity is rampant today.


None of that happened. What freakish delusions...


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## Fort Fun Indiana (Oct 18, 2022)

Woodznutz said:


> Was the flood story written as myth by those peoples? The bible presents it as an actual event.


Which we know is a lie.


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## Grumblenuts (Oct 18, 2022)

_Soon the very garments covering their waists and legs were seen bursting into flame with each running and screaming hither and yon in their turn like erupting popcorns._


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## Woodznutz (Oct 19, 2022)

Fort Fun Indiana said:


> Which we know is a lie.


You should tell the authorities.


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## Woodznutz (Oct 19, 2022)

Fort Fun Indiana said:


> None of that happened. What freakish delusions...


You should send us to your reeducation camp.


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## james bond (Oct 19, 2022)

Hollie said:


> What does AGW have to do with cut and paste Bible verses?
> 
> Otherwise, because your life is consumed by fear of gods who are coming to destroy you, maybe see if medication can help your anxiety and angst.


AGW is the _today's science_ of the end of the world.

I still want to live a full life since I have kids and nephews and nieces.  Also, I'm retired and God has told me not to work.  Thus, I have two dogs and prolly will be getting married again next year.

It's Sir Isaac Newton who studied the Bible and came up with 2060 as the end of the world.  I just saw this doc last night.


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## Hollie (Oct 19, 2022)

james bond said:


> AGW is the _today's science_ of the end of the world.
> 
> I still want to live a full life since I have kids and nephews and nieces.  Also, I'm retired and God has told me not to work.  Thus, I have two dogs and prolly will be getting married again next year.
> 
> It's Sir Isaac Newton who studied the Bible and came up with 2060 as the end of the world.  I just saw this doc last night.


I'd like to suggest you not get your science education from silly youtube videos.


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## Woodznutz (Oct 19, 2022)

james bond said:


> AGW is the _today's science_ of the end of the world.
> 
> I still want to live a full life since I have kids and nephews and nieces.  Also, I'm retired and God has told me not to work.  Thus, I have two dogs and prolly will be getting married again next year.
> 
> It's Sir Isaac Newton who studied the Bible and came up with 2060 as the end of the world.  I just saw this doc last night.


Check out minute 21:10 where it is wrongly stated "to the serpent". It should read "from the face of the serpent." This is incredibly important, and is likely why it was deliberately changed.

How did I catch that you ask? I guess I know my Bible.


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## Woodznutz (Oct 19, 2022)

Hollie said:


> I'd like to suggest you not get your science education from silly youtube videos.


Nothing silly about end time prophecy. It's unfolding even more than most realize.


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## Hollie (Oct 19, 2022)

Woodznutz said:


> Nothing silly about end time prophecy. It's unfolding even more than most realize.


End time prophecy is silly. For you, the bible may be the standard for  fact and reality by which everything else is to be judged. That is your right. However, you cannot insist that should be imposed on anyone else. The bible contains no scientific theory whatsoever. True science clearly does contradict the bible, in many ways which cannot be reconciled. The origins of life are not out of supernatural intervention. Humans did not originate from the dust, and a rib. The world was never covered with a global flood -there is overwhelming evidence against such an event. Languages did not originate from the Tower of Babel. The earth is not immoble: it rotates and moves through space. The stars are not for signs and seasons. The earth is not flat.

These are material facts.


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## james bond (Oct 19, 2022)

Hollie said:


> I'd like to suggest you not get your science education from silly youtube videos.


You're not going to make it to 2060, so it doesn't matter if you believe it or not.  You'll just end up in a bad place after death and eventually end up you know where.


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## Hollie (Oct 19, 2022)

james bond said:


> You're not going to make it to 2060, so it doesn't matter if you believe it or not.  You'll just end up in a bad place after death and eventually end up you know where.



Is that what your gods are whispering in your ear?


----------



## james bond (Oct 19, 2022)

Woodznutz said:


> Check out minute 21:10 where it is wrongly stated "to the serpent". It should read "from the face of the serpent." This is incredibly important, and is likely why it was deliberately changed.
> 
> How did I catch that you ask? I guess I know my Bible.


Yes, but what should we do when we see/hear "from the face of the serpent?"


----------



## james bond (Oct 19, 2022)

Hollie said:


> Is that what your gods are whispering in your ear?


It's in the Bible, but you are already in a bad place so you believe another who whispers in your ear.  You already discarded Sir Isaac Newton.


----------



## Hollie (Oct 19, 2022)

james bond said:


> It's in the Bible, but you are already in a bad place so you believe another who whispers in your ear.  You already discarded Sir Isaac Newton.



Your lurid fantasies are your own nightmare.


----------



## james bond (Oct 20, 2022)

Hollie said:


> Your lurid fantasies are your own nightmare.


I believe Sir Isaac Newton and he believed the Bible.  It's more evidence for science backing Biblical creation.  Facts are facts.


----------



## Woodznutz (Oct 20, 2022)

Hollie said:


> End time prophecy is silly. For you, the bible may be the standard for  fact and reality by which everything else is to be judged. That is your right. However, you cannot insist that should be imposed on anyone else. The bible contains no scientific theory whatsoever. True science clearly does contradict the bible, in many ways which cannot be reconciled. The origins of life are not out of supernatural intervention. Humans did not originate from the dust, and a rib. The world was never covered with a global flood -there is overwhelming evidence against such an event. Languages did not originate from the Tower of Babel. The earth is not immoble: it rotates and moves through space. The stars are not for signs and seasons. The earth is not flat.
> 
> These are material facts.


It is secular beliefs that are being imposed on society, not religious beliefs.


----------



## Woodznutz (Oct 20, 2022)

james bond said:


> Yes, but what should we do when we see/hear "from the face of the serpent?"


Be thankful that God took us to a safer place.


----------



## Hollie (Oct 20, 2022)

Woodznutz said:


> It is secular beliefs that are being imposed on society, not religious beliefs.


What secular beliefs?


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## Hollie (Oct 20, 2022)

james bond said:


> I believe Sir Isaac Newton and he believed the Bible.  It's more evidence for science backing Biblical creation.  Facts are facts.


The planet is not flat. 

"Phacts are phacts" doesn't change that.


----------



## Woodznutz (Oct 20, 2022)

Hollie said:


> What secular beliefs?


ToE is a big one.


----------



## Hollie (Oct 20, 2022)

Woodznutz said:


> ToE is a big one.


Testing, evidence and facts fully support the ToE. It's not a belief.


----------



## Woodznutz (Oct 20, 2022)

Hollie said:


> Testing, evidence and facts fully support the ToE. It's not a belief.


Millions believe it with no scientific understanding whatsoever.


----------



## Hollie (Oct 20, 2022)

Woodznutz said:


> Millions believe it with no scientific understanding whatsoever.


There is no requirement for belief when facts support the theory. You are free to embrace a 17th century worldview but the notion of various gods guiding the natural world is just not relevant.


----------



## Woodznutz (Oct 20, 2022)

Hollie said:


> There is no requirement for belief when facts support the theory. You are free to embrace a 17th century worldview but the notion of various gods guiding the natural world is just not relevant.


Why the 'various gods' thing?  We believe in one God, not 'various'.


----------



## Woodznutz (Oct 20, 2022)

Hollie said:


> There is no requirement for belief when facts support the theory. You are free to embrace a 17th century worldview but the notion of various gods guiding the natural world is just not relevant.


My worldview is constantly updated to the present. God's laws and way of life still reign, while your is in the toilet.


----------



## Hollie (Oct 20, 2022)

Woodznutz said:


> Why the 'various gods' thing?  We believe in one God, not 'various'.


Why do you think your triune God is any more "real" than any of the other, competing versions of gods?


----------



## Hollie (Oct 20, 2022)

Woodznutz said:


> My worldview is constantly updated to the present. God's laws and way of life still reign, while your is in the toilet.


How Christian of you.


----------



## Woodznutz (Oct 20, 2022)

Hollie said:


> Why do you think your triune God is any more "real" than any of the other, competing versions of gods?


My God makes sense, others don't.


----------



## Woodznutz (Oct 20, 2022)

Hollie said:


> How Christian of you.


I see what I see. As religion fails, especially the Christian faith, the world falls into the toilet. Sometimes correlation _is_ causation. The world needs a moral awakening, not more scientific discoveries. Science can't save us, not even from global warming.


----------



## Hollie (Oct 20, 2022)

Woodznutz said:


> My God makes sense, others don't.


Others say the same thing. They're right so you must be wrong.


----------



## Hollie (Oct 20, 2022)

Woodznutz said:


> I see what I see. As religion fails, especially the Christian faith, the world falls into the toilet. Sometimes correlation _is_ causation.


Might as well sit at home and wait for all the gods to compromise on how they will resolve things.


----------



## surada (Oct 20, 2022)

james bond said:


> The end of the world will work out for the believers in Christ, but for the others not so much.  It means we look forward to joy.



It was the end of an era when the temple was destroyed.


----------



## Woodznutz (Oct 20, 2022)

Hollie said:


> Others say the same thing. They're right so you must be wrong.


Funny.


----------



## Woodznutz (Oct 20, 2022)

Hollie said:


> Might as well sit at home and wait for all the gods to compromise on how they will resolve things.


God helps those who help themselves. Jesus said, "Busy yourselves (occupy) until I return." Christians aren't sitting on their hands waiting for others to do the work.

Hollie, you need to understand just how far apart our thinking is. What you see as a normal way of life Christians see as a looming tragedy.


----------



## Woodznutz (Oct 20, 2022)

surada said:


> It was the end of an era when the temple was destroyed.


It was the formal and final end of the Old Covenant.


----------



## Woodznutz (Oct 20, 2022)

Hollie said:


> Might as well sit at home and wait for all the gods to compromise on how they will resolve things.


God will save us from our suicidal destruction at the eleventh hour.


----------



## Hollie (Oct 20, 2022)

Woodznutz said:


> Funny.


Not at all.


Woodznutz said:


> Funny.


Not necessarily funny. Just expected. Like the overwhelming majority of people, you simply inherited the gods commonly associated with your geographic, societal and familial surroundings. That's why there are identifiable gods ruling over identifiable geographic and societal regions of the planet. 

As time goes on we do grow more godless. And as time goes by, and gods don’t return to this earth, as gods don’t prove salvation, we grow yet further away from fantasy and fiction. And that terrifies the believers. You know there is only faith and "belief" to support the “belief”. As mankind grows in scientific knowledge, those things once ascribed to the gods are taken away, leaving the gods as vindictive  punishers and to sit and judge the dead.


----------



## Hollie (Oct 20, 2022)

Woodznutz said:


> God helps those who help themselves. Jesus said, "Busy yourselves (occupy) until I return." Christians aren't sitting on their hands waiting for others to do the work.
> 
> Hollie, you need to understand just how far apart our thinking is. What you see as a normal way of life Christians see as a looming tragedy.


That's fine. I'll help myself, my friends, family and loved ones absent any expectation the gods have any interest in helping. 

What is it you think I see as normal? That religions are divisive?


----------



## Grumblenuts (Oct 20, 2022)

Woodznutz said:


> God will save us from our suicidal destruction at the eleventh hour.


Convenient how Christians can and do use that as an excuse all the time to destroy things and shoot people while blaming Atheists who cannot.


----------



## Woodznutz (Oct 20, 2022)

Grumblenuts said:


> Convenient how Christians can and do use that as an excuse all the time to destroy things and shoot people while blaming Atheists who cannot.


You should look deeper into those events.


----------



## Woodznutz (Oct 20, 2022)

Hollie said:


> That's fine. I'll help myself, my friends, family and loved ones absent any expectation the gods have any interest in helping.


Easily explained.

Romans 2:14-15​​​​​14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another.


----------



## Hollie (Oct 20, 2022)

Woodznutz said:


> Easily explained.
> 
> Romans 2:14-15​​​​​14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
> 15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another.


Super. 

So I'm conflicted on how to handle a domestic issue, and the absolutely universal / moral laws of the gods are not making it clear how I should proceed. Here's my conflict, from Leviticus 25:45-46

"_Both thy bondmen, and thy bondmaids, which thou shalt have, shall be of the heathen that are round about you; of them shall ye buy bondmen and bondmaids. Moreover of the children of the strangers that do sojourn among you, of them shall ye buy, and of their families that are with you, which they begat in your land: and they shall be your possession_."

Here's my problem. One of the 4 year old children of the heathens around me actually has converted to Judaism. Now, technically he is still heathen, at least by blood. Can I buy this child anyway, or does the conversion override the bloodline issue? I suspect that a 4 year old isn't old enough to make such a decision regarding their status, so I can buy and enslave him anyway, right?

Can you enlighten me on how the gods resolves such a conflict?

Thanks.


----------



## Woodznutz (Oct 20, 2022)

Hollie said:


> Not at all.
> 
> Not necessarily funny. Just expected. Like the overwhelming majority of people, you simply inherited the gods commonly associated with your geographic, societal and familial surroundings. That's why there are identifiable gods ruling over identifiable geographic and societal regions of the planet.
> 
> As time goes on we do grow more godless. And as time goes by, and gods don’t return to this earth, as gods don’t prove salvation, we grow yet further away from fantasy and fiction. And that terrifies the believers. You know there is only faith and "belief" to support the “belief”. As mankind grows in scientific knowledge, those things once ascribed to the gods are taken away, leaving the gods as vindictive punishers and to sit and judge the dead.



Your opinions concerning the biblical God have been formed outside of the faith, and are predictably negative.

The truly godly grow yet more godly, even as the world grows more godless. To the point where we are able to "come out of her" almost entirely and shed the curses they bring on themselves. We are necessarily _in_ the world but not _of_ the world.


----------



## Woodznutz (Oct 20, 2022)

Hollie said:


> Super.
> 
> So I'm conflicted on how to handle a domestic issue, and the absolutely universal / moral laws of the gods are not making it clear how I should proceed. Here's my conflict, from Leviticus 25:45-46
> 
> ...


God resolved that conflict by sending Titus to destroy the temple in 70 A.D. This event marked the final end of the Old Covenant, along with the law that you referenced. 
It was replaced by "You shall love your neighbor as yourself". The love here is _agape_, which entails four major elements:

Assent of will (happily yielding your own will on the subject).
Judgment (decisions based on knowledge, fairness and justice).
Duty (self-sacrificial effort on behalf of the greater good).
Propriety (doing things properly, orderly, courteously).

Using one or a more of these attributes should help you solve the problem.


----------



## Hollie (Oct 20, 2022)

Woodznutz said:


> Your opinions concerning the biblical God have been formed outside of the faith, and are predictably negative.
> 
> The truly godly grow yet more godly, even as the world grows more godless. To the point where we are able to "come out of her" almost entirely and shed the curses they bring on themselves. We are necessarily _in_ the world but not _of_ the world.


Actually, my opinions about religion have been founded on the principles of reason and rationality. While I suspect you include yourself among those special few who are the " truly godly", I see nothing that separates you special few from a large majority of the non-religious. 

An irrational belief system is what has compelled you religious folks toward pushing swords into one another for over ten thousand years; burning at the stake those who don't agree with you, flying airplanes into buildings. All of this to prove that you, and only you, represent the true god(s). 

How very godly of you fine folks.


----------



## Woodznutz (Oct 20, 2022)

Hollie said:


> Actually, my opinions about religion have been founded on the principles of reason and rationality. While I suspect you include yourself among those special few who are the " truly godly", I see nothing that separates you special few from a large majority of the non-religious.
> 
> An irrational belief system is what has compelled you religious folks toward pushing swords into one another for over ten thousand years; burning at the stake those who don't agree with you, flying airplanes into buildings. All of this to prove that you, and only you, represent the true god(s).
> 
> How very godly of you fine folks.


Godliness evolves along with godlessness. To freeze religion in the dark ages while elevating secular knowledge is a bit dishonest.


----------



## Woodznutz (Oct 20, 2022)

Hollie said:


> . While I suspect you include yourself among those special few who are the " truly godly", I see nothing that separates you special few from a large majority of the non-religious.


You should look closer. 

Also, not all religions are beneficent, Islam for example. Another child was just killed for not singing a patriotic Iranian song. When is the last time a teenager was killed here for not singing "The Battle Hymn of the Republic"?


----------



## Grumblenuts (Oct 20, 2022)

Woodznutz said:


> You should look deeper into those events.


I speak from experience. You knee-jerk judge and dismiss from ignorance and denial.

Indeed, "How Christian of you."


----------



## Woodznutz (Oct 20, 2022)

Grumblenuts said:


> I speak from experience. You knee-jerk judge and dismiss from ignorance and denial.
> 
> Indeed, "How Christian of you."


Looking deeper is the opposite of knee-jerk.


----------



## Hollie (Oct 20, 2022)

Woodznutz said:


> Godliness evolves along with godlessness. To freeze religion in the dark ages while elevating secular knowledge is a bit dishonest.


It's perfectly appropriate to freeze religion in the dark. They don't advance or discover. There's nothing more we can learn about the Genesis fable. There it sits. A collection of absurdities that even religious people are odds over. 

On the other hand, reason and rationality a the underpinnings of science have proven to be among the most influential and impactful human endeavors. It inspires thinking and innovation rather than the intellectual rigor mortis of religious dogma.

And in this way it accomplishes what most religious beliefs do not; progress. This is why scientific and intellectual investigation deserves so much deference in comparison to the dogna delivered by religious faith.


----------



## Woodznutz (Oct 20, 2022)

Hollie said:


> It's perfectly appropriate to freeze religion in the dark. They don't advance or discover. There's nothing more we can learn about the Genesis fable. There it sits. A collection of absurdities that even religious people are odds over.
> 
> On the other hand, reason and rationality a the underpinnings of science have proven to be among the most influential and impactful human endeavors. It inspires thinking and innovation rather than the intellectual rigor mortis of religious dogma.
> 
> And in this way it accomplishes what most religious beliefs do not; progress. This is why scientific and intellectual investigation deserves so much deference in comparison to the dogna delivered by religious faith.


Are you aware of the role of the Bible in the expansion of literacy in the West, and the advances that that literacy wrought?


----------



## Woodznutz (Oct 20, 2022)

Hollie said:


> It's perfectly appropriate to freeze religion in the dark. They don't advance or discover. There's nothing more we can learn about the Genesis fable. There it sits. A collection of absurdities that even religious people are odds over.


That you attack Genesis is quite telling. The book of "beginnings" sets the table for all that follows. Discredit the premise and you can discredit anything built upon it. Very cunning of you.


----------



## Hollie (Oct 20, 2022)

Woodznutz said:


> You should look closer.
> 
> Also, not all religions are beneficent, Islam for example. Another child was just killed for not singing a patriotic Iranian song. When is the last time a teenager was killed here for not singing "The Battle Hymn of the Republic"?



I wouldn't be so quick to attach "beneficent'' to Christianity. From the conquests and horrors of the Conquistadors to the modern catholic church operating a child sex abuse syndicate, the human suffering inflicted on humanity by Christianity is horrendous. 

The library of congress (link below), has an enormous catalog of early American history. It’s also important to remember that the framers of the Constitution were aware the early colonies of settlers were conclaves of religious intolerance, wherein a Baptist in one colony was safe, but a Roman Catholic was a criminal, yet in a different colony the reverse was true. This is completely unworkable and the Founding Fathers knew it.

The various sects of Christianity were completely at odds with one another as colonial states. Catholics couldn't live in one state, Quakers were executed if they went to another, Protestants were reviled in still others, and so on. These documents still exist. Anyone can research the laws of the original 13 colonies. 






						America as a Religious Refuge: The Seventeenth Century, Part 2 - Religion and the Founding of the American Republic | Exhibitions (Library of Congress)
					

Puritans expelled dissenters from their colonies, including Roger Williams and Anne Hutchinson. Although they were victims of religious persecution in Europe, the Puritans supported the theory that sanctioned it, the need for uniformity of religion in the state.



					www.loc.gov


----------



## Hollie (Oct 20, 2022)

Woodznutz said:


> Are you aware of the role of the Bible in the expansion of literacy in the West, and the advances that that literacy wrought?


Are you aware of the role played by the Anglican church during the Dark Ages? The church literally held back the advancement of humanity for 800 years using torture, confinement and death for anyone who dared question church authority.


----------



## Hollie (Oct 20, 2022)

Woodznutz said:


> That you attack Genesis is quite telling. The book of "beginnings" sets the table for all that follows. Discredit the premise and you can discredit anything built upon it. Very cunning of you.


I don't attack Genesis. I simply acknowledge that absurd fables with  contrivances about talking snakes, humans from dirt, a 6 000 year old planet, etc., are absurdities.


----------



## Grumblenuts (Oct 20, 2022)

Woodznutz said:


> Looking deeper is the opposite of knee-jerk.


Wow, our student learned something today. A+

Baby steps, but progress!


----------



## Woodznutz (Oct 20, 2022)

Hollie said:


> I wouldn't be so quick to attach "beneficent'' to Christianity. From the conquests and horrors of the Conquistadors to the modern catholic church operating a child sex abuse syndicate, the human suffering inflicted on humanity by Christianity is horrendous.
> 
> The library of congress (link below), has an enormous catalog of early American history. It’s also important to remember that the framers of the Constitution were aware the early colonies of settlers were conclaves of religious intolerance, wherein a Baptist in one colony was safe, but a Roman Catholic was a criminal, yet in a different colony the reverse was true. This is completely unworkable and the Founding Fathers knew it.
> 
> ...


We've pretty much worked those things out. You need to update your arguments.


----------



## Woodznutz (Oct 20, 2022)

Hollie said:


> I don't attack Genesis. I simply acknowledge that absurd fables with  contrivances about talking snakes, humans from dirt, a 6 000 year old planet, etc., are absurdities.


There's nothing in Genesis about a talking snake, or a 6000 year old planet. Man was made from, and is sustained by, the earthy elements however, as any scientist will attest.


----------



## Woodznutz (Oct 20, 2022)

Hollie said:


> Are you aware of the role played by the Anglican church during the Dark Ages? The church literally held back the advancement of humanity for 800 years using torture, confinement and death for anyone who dared question church authority.


The Catholic Church and the Anglican Church were responsible for driving _the true church_ out of Europe and later out of England. Don't confuse the great false churches of history with the true church.

Read Revelation 12.


----------



## Woodznutz (Oct 20, 2022)

Grumblenuts said:


> Wow, our student learned something today. A+
> 
> Baby steps, but progress!


Ya'll should take a lesson. I always try to angle for the nub of things. Sadly, a shitstorm usually happens before I get that far.


----------



## Hollie (Oct 21, 2022)

Woodznutz said:


> We've pretty much worked those things out. You need to update your arguments.


You've pretty much worked out the abuses of Christianity? When did ''forgive and forget'' become part of the hymnals?


----------



## Hollie (Oct 21, 2022)

Woodznutz said:


> The Catholic Church and the Anglican Church were responsible for driving _the true church_ out of Europe and later out of England. Don't confuse the great false churches of history with the true church.
> 
> Read Revelation 12.


Ah. You have employed the "the true church'' argument. That's along the lines of ''the true Scotsman'' argument, right?


----------



## Hollie (Oct 21, 2022)

Woodznutz said:


> There's nothing in Genesis about a talking snake, or a 6000 year old planet. Man was made from, and is sustained by, the earthy elements however, as any scientist will attest.


Correct. There's also nothing in genesis about all of humanity being condemned for an act of fruit theft, right?


----------



## surada (Oct 21, 2022)

Woodznutz said:


> You should look closer.
> 
> Also, not all religions are beneficent, Islam for example. Another child was just killed for not singing a patriotic Iranian song. When is the last time a teenager was killed here for not singing "The Battle Hymn of the Republic"?



You don't know anything about Islam. What is wrong with you?


----------



## cnm (Oct 21, 2022)

Hollie said:


> Are you aware of the role played by the Anglican church during the Dark Ages? The church literally held back the advancement of humanity for 800 years using torture, confinement and death for anyone who dared question church authority.


The Anglican Church didn't exist in the Dark Ages.


----------



## cnm (Oct 21, 2022)

Woodznutz said:


> You should look closer.
> 
> Also, not all religions are beneficent, Islam for example. Another child was just killed for not singing a patriotic Iranian song. When is the last time a teenager was killed here for not singing "The Battle Hymn of the Republic"?


What on earth has Islam to do with Iranian patriotism?  Anyway, I wouldn't be surprised if a few teenagers in Dixie had been killed for singing "The Battle Hymn of the Republic". Especially if they were uppity.


----------



## surada (Oct 21, 2022)

Woodznutz said:


> The Catholic Church and the Anglican Church were responsible for driving _the true church_ out of Europe and later out of England. Don't confuse the great false churches of history with the true church.
> 
> Read Revelation 12.



The woman in Revelation 12 probably symbolizes the Christian refugees.


----------



## Grumblenuts (Oct 21, 2022)

Long live King Arwald!


----------



## Woodznutz (Oct 21, 2022)

Hollie said:


> Ah. You have employed the "the true church'' argument. That's along the lines of ''the true Scotsman'' argument, right?



Actually it is. No true Christian would torture and kill anyone.


----------



## surada (Oct 21, 2022)

Woodznutz said:


> Actually it is. Where in the Bible is the Christian church instructed to torture and kill 'infidels'?



Infidels? You mean pagans? Christians, Jews and Muslims are not infidels.


----------



## Woodznutz (Oct 21, 2022)

surada said:


> You don't know anything about Islam. What is wrong with you?


 Why would you say that?


----------



## surada (Oct 21, 2022)

Woodznutz said:


> Why would you say that?



You don't even know what an infidel is..


----------



## surada (Oct 21, 2022)

Grumblenuts said:


> Long live King Arwald!



The last pagan king of the Isle of Wite or Wight?


----------



## Woodznutz (Oct 21, 2022)

surada said:


> Infidels? You mean pagans? Christians, Jews and Muslims are not infidels.


I put semi-quotes around the term to cover those meanings.



cnm said:


> What on earth has Islam to do with Iranian patriotism?  Anyway, I wouldn't be surprised if a few teenagers in Dixie had been killed for singing "The Battle Hymn of the Republic". Especially if they were uppity.


The kids were protesting Islamic dress codes. They were dragged into the street and made to sing a patriotic song. A 15-year-old refused and was beaten to death.


----------



## surada (Oct 21, 2022)

Woodznutz said:


> I put semi-quotes around the term to cover those meanings.
> 
> The true church that was hounded
> 
> The kids were protesting Islamic dress codes.



What is happening in Iran is not Islamic.


----------



## Woodznutz (Oct 21, 2022)

Hollie said:


> Correct. There's also nothing in genesis about all of humanity being condemned for an act of fruit theft, right?


God pronounced a judgment on us that remains to this day.


----------



## surada (Oct 21, 2022)

Woodznutz said:


> God pronounced a judgment on us that remains to this day.



Original sin wasn't doctrine until the 3rd century. Neither Muslims nor Jews believe in original sin.


----------



## Woodznutz (Oct 21, 2022)

surada said:


> You don't even know what an infidel is..


Please.
 Infidel (literally:_ unfaithful_) is just the Islamic term for unbeliever, heathen.

What does it mean to be an infidel?
The definition of an infidel is a person who you consider a heathen because he does not adhere to the religion you believe is the true religion. When someone does not conform to your religious beliefs, this is an example of someone you might consider an infidel. One who does not believe in a certain principle.


----------



## Woodznutz (Oct 21, 2022)

surada said:


> Original sin wasn't doctrine until the 3rd century. Neither Muslims nor Jews believe in original sin.


Regardless. We still have to toil for our existence, women (mostly) subject themselves to their husbands, and we are a mixture of good and evil.


----------



## Woodznutz (Oct 21, 2022)

surada said:


> What is happening in Iran is not Islamic.


I don't know what you mean by that, but it sure as hell isn't Christian.


----------



## Woodznutz (Oct 21, 2022)

Hollie said:


> You've pretty much worked out the abuses of Christianity? When did ''forgive and forget'' become part of the hymnals?


Not sure what you mean here.


----------



## Woodznutz (Oct 21, 2022)

surada said:


> The woman in Revelation 12 probably symbolizes the Christian refugees.


Those refugees were part of the true church, persecuted by the false church.


----------



## Grumblenuts (Oct 21, 2022)

Woodznutz said:


> Those refugees were part of the true church, persecuted by the false church.


Which group swore "God" was on their side and quoted Bible verses to prove that they were the only true Scotsmen?


----------



## Grumblenuts (Oct 21, 2022)

surada said:


> The last pagan king of the Isle of Wite or Wight?


You got that Wight!


----------



## Hollie (Oct 21, 2022)

Woodznutz said:


> God pronounced a judgment on us that remains to this day.


Actually, no. Any claimed pronouncement by your god distills to nothing more than pronouncements by men who wrote the Bible.


----------



## Grumblenuts (Oct 21, 2022)

Woodznutz said:


> God pronounced a judgment on us that remains to this day.


Two can play that game. Any day.


----------



## Woodznutz (Oct 21, 2022)

Hollie said:


> Actually, no. Any claimed pronouncement by your god distills to nothing more than pronouncements by men who wrote the Bible.


Pretty accurate though, wouldn't you agree?


----------



## Hollie (Oct 21, 2022)

Woodznutz said:


> Pretty accurate though, wouldn't you agree?


No. I wouldn't agree. There is no accuracy.


----------



## Woodznutz (Oct 21, 2022)

Hollie said:


> No. I wouldn't agree. There is no accuracy.


In what universe is:

There is no free lunch,
Women desire marriage,
People are both good and evil,

 inaccurate?


----------



## Hollie (Oct 21, 2022)

Woodznutz said:


> In what universe is:
> 
> There is no free lunch,
> Women desire marriage,
> ...


Four corners of a Flat Earth.

What is a "firmament"

Accurate?


----------



## Woodznutz (Oct 21, 2022)

.


----------



## Woodznutz (Oct 21, 2022)

Hollie said:


> Four corners of a Flat Earth.


An expression still in use.


Hollie said:


> What is a "firmament"


Look it up.


----------



## Hollie (Oct 21, 2022)

Woodznutz said:


> An expression still in use.
> 
> Look it up.


Flat Earth. Long before the Bible was written, Eratosthenes delineated a spherical anet and measured the circumference quite accurately.

I looked it up. It is a description of some type of heavens above the earth. 

You know that science has progressed a bit from when people thought that the gods made thunder and lighting, right?


----------



## Woodznutz (Oct 21, 2022)

Hollie said:


> Flat Earth. Long before the Bible was written, Eratosthenes delineated a spherical anet and measured the circumference quite accurately


The Bible nowhere describes a flat earth. The Bible does suggest that the earth revolves around the sun. That's kinda scientific.


Hollie said:


> I looked it up. It is a description of some type of heavens above the earth.


Biblically it's where the birds fly, as well as where the stars reside.


Hollie said:


> You know that science has progressed a bit from when people thought that the gods made thunder and lighting, right?


Weather is part of God's creation, as destructive as it is sometimes.


----------



## Indeependent (Oct 21, 2022)

Hollie said:


> Flat Earth. Long before the Bible was written, Eratosthenes delineated a spherical anet and measured the circumference quite accurately.
> 
> I looked it up. It is a description of some type of heavens above the earth.
> 
> You know that science has progressed a bit from when people thought that the gods made thunder and lighting, right?


Science also says no Big Bang Theory…until the next discovery


----------



## Woodznutz (Oct 21, 2022)

Indeependent said:


> Science also says no Big Bang Theory…until the next discovery


Especially since the new telescope is finding order in deep space, where things should be in disorder, according to the scientists.


----------



## Hollie (Oct 21, 2022)

Woodznutz said:


> The Bible nowhere describes a flat earth. The Bible does suggest that the earth revolves around the sun. That's kinda scientific.
> 
> Biblically it's where the birds fly, as well as where the stars reside.
> 
> Weather is part of God's creation, as destructive as it is sometimes.


The Bible describes a Flat Earth; four corners.

"Firmament" is a description completely lacking in objective reality. Job 38:4-6 refers to earth having a foundation and footings. Job 26:11 says heaven is supported by pillars. Other verses throughout the Bible refer to a solid firmament. Birds don't fly in solid matter.

Thank the gods for tornadoes and hurricanes, eh?


----------



## Indeependent (Oct 21, 2022)

Hollie said:


> The Bible describes a Flat Earth; four corners.
> 
> "Firmament" is a description completely lacking in objective reality. Job 38:4-6 refers to earth having a foundation and footings. Job 26:11 says heaven is supported by pillars. Other verses throughout the Bible refer to a solid firmament. Birds don't fly in solid matter.
> 
> Thank the gods for tornadoes and hurricanes, eh?


You have a verse?


----------



## james bond (Oct 22, 2022)

Hollie said:


> Testing, evidence and facts fully support the ToE. It's not a belief.


Not really.  It's not common ancestry, but a common designer in God.  Thus, science once again backs creation.

What else do you have?  Can you explain descent with modification lol?


----------



## Hollie (Oct 22, 2022)

james bond said:


> Not really.  It's not common ancestry, but a common designer in God.  Thus, science once again backs creation.
> 
> What else do you have?  Can you explain descent with modification lol?


Yes, for the religious extremists, facts and evidence are inconsequential to their belief in a Flat Earth.


----------



## Woodznutz (Oct 22, 2022)

Hollie said:


> The Bible describes a Flat Earth; four corners.
> 
> "Firmament" is a description completely lacking in objective reality. Job 38:4-6 refers to earth having a foundation and footings. Job 26:11 says heaven is supported by pillars. Other verses throughout the Bible refer to a solid firmament. Birds don't fly in solid matter.
> 
> Thank the gods for tornadoes and hurricanes, eh?


The four corners are just the four primary directions, still used today (by very educated people).

The 'pillars' are the physical principles upon which the earth rests.

Genesis 1:20
And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, *and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.*

Thank the upheaval of the original earth (rebellion of angels) for such weather. See Genesis 1:2. Such rebellion is still with us, even on these forums.


----------



## Woodznutz (Oct 22, 2022)

Hollie said:


> Four corners of a Flat Earth.
> 
> What is a "firmament"
> 
> Accurate?


Answer the question.


----------



## Woodznutz (Oct 22, 2022)

Hollie said:


> Yes, for the religious extremists, facts and evidence are inconsequential to their belief in a Flat Earth.


What evidence do you have that 'flat earthers' is a Christian organization, or any part of the Christian church, or that 'flat earth' idea is any part of Christian belief or dogma?


----------



## Hollie (Oct 22, 2022)

Woodznutz said:


> The four corners are just the four primary directions, still used today (by very educated people).
> 
> The 'pillars' are the physical principles upon which the earth rests.
> 
> ...


Most educated people understand the planet is spherical. There are number of verses in the Bible describing a flat earth.

There are no pillars supporting the planet. There are no physical principles that require pillars to support the planet. Other than for promoting conspiracy theories, why are there no pillars in photos of the planet taken from space?

The ''firmament'' is a solid covering. You are aware that there is a gaseous envelope around the planet, right?

Angels are not real. Bigfoot, Nessie, leprechauns at the end of the rainbow are real, as you know.


----------



## Woodznutz (Oct 22, 2022)

Hollie said:


> Most educated people understand the planet is spherical. There are number of verses in the Bible describing a flat earth.


Can you point them out?


----------



## Woodznutz (Oct 22, 2022)

Hollie said:


> The ''firmament'' is a solid covering. You are aware that there is a gaseous envelope around the planet, right?


רָקִיעַ râqîyaʻ, raw-kee'-ah; from H7554; properly, an expanse, i.e. the firmament or (apparently)* visible arch of the sky:*—firmament.


----------



## james bond (Oct 22, 2022)

surada said:


> It was the end of an era when the temple was destroyed.


Sure, that was then.  This is now.  In the future will be another temple in Jerusalem (no under Muslim control).  The Bible tells of five events yet to come -- What role does Israel play in the end times? Do the events in Israel indicate the end times are close?.

What do you have?


----------



## Hollie (Oct 22, 2022)

Woodznutz said:


> רָקִיעַ râqîyaʻ, raw-kee'-ah; from H7554; properly, an expanse, i.e. the firmament or (apparently)* visible arch of the sky:*—firmament.



visible arch of the sky*:*—*not the firmament*.

You can change definitions all you like, as you did in post 355 and now something different, but thats a pretty desperate tactic.


----------



## Hollie (Oct 22, 2022)

Woodznutz said:


> Can you point them out?


You can find them. The gods help those who help themselves. 

Job 28:24 speaks to the ends of the earth.


----------



## Hollie (Oct 22, 2022)

Woodznutz said:


> What evidence do you have that 'flat earthers' is a Christian organization, or any part of the Christian church, or that 'flat earth' idea is any part of Christian belief or dogma?


Something about the bibles describing a flat earth suggests it's a Christian kind of thing.


----------



## james bond (Oct 22, 2022)

Hollie said:


> Correct. There's also nothing in genesis about all of humanity being condemned for an act of fruit theft, right?


We don't know whether the forbidden fruit was an _apple_, but it is what led to original sin and sinful nature in us all.  The proof is -- who here is without sin?  See Ten Commandments.

It led to the history of humankind and everything and our Savior.


----------



## Hollie (Oct 22, 2022)

james bond said:


> We don't know whether the forbidden fruit was an _apple_, but it is what led to original sin and sinful nature in us all.  The proof is -- who here is without sin?  See Ten Commandments.


Just change the Bible fables to whatever floats your boat.


----------



## Woodznutz (Oct 22, 2022)

Hollie said:


> visible arch of the sky*:*—*not the firmament*.
> 
> You can change definitions all you like, as you did in post 355 and now something different, but thats a pretty desperate tactic.


Firmament in bible usage can be a solid, or an open, expanse. But you may hold any definition you choose.  

Genesis 1:20
And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, *and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.*


----------



## Woodznutz (Oct 22, 2022)

Hollie said:


> Something about the bibles describing a flat earth suggests it's a Christian kind of thing.


Chapter and verse please.


----------



## Hollie (Oct 22, 2022)

Woodznutz said:


> Firmament in bible usage can be a solid, or an open, expanse. But you may hold any definition you choose.
> 
> Genesis 1:20
> And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, *and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.*


Did you realize you posted: ''bible usage can be a solid, or an open, expanse....''

So yes, you can use all the contradictory terms you want. You can use 'yes', 'no', 'maybe', 'open', 'solid'... whatever. Just make it up as you go along.


----------



## Woodznutz (Oct 22, 2022)

Hollie said:


> Did you realize you posted: ''bible usage can be a solid, or an open, expanse....''
> 
> So yes, you can use all the contradictory terms you want. You can use 'yes', 'no', 'maybe', 'open', 'solid'... whatever. Just make it up as you go along.


The Hebrew allows great latitude in translating words. The context usually, but not always, determines the word choice. The "four corners" of the earth can be translated _four extreme places that are beyond sight._

My favorite is the word "gave" (Eve_ gave _the fruit to Adam). It should have been translated, Eve_ nagged _Adam into eating the fruit, much more accurate.

You've been shown the legitimate uses of the word.   You've also been shown the metaphorical uses of other terms. What is your problem?


----------



## Hollie (Oct 22, 2022)

Woodznutz said:


> The Hebrew allows great latitude in translating words. The context usually, but not always, determines the word choice. The "four corners" of the earth can be translated _four extreme places that are beyond sight._
> 
> My favorite is the word "gave" (Eve_ gave _the fruit to Adam). It should have been translated, Eve_ nagged _Adam into eating the fruit, much more accurate.
> 
> You've been shown the legitimate uses of the word.   You've also been shown the metaphorical uses of other terms. What is your problem?



My problem is the nonsensical redefining of terms because it's really a requirement to make any verse fit a predefined conclusion. I've been shown the manipulation and editing of bible verses to fit a narrative.

The "four corners" of the earth can be translated, ''_the unknown authors of the bible lived during a time of fear and superstition where knowledge of the natural world was limited and it was thought that angry gods controlled the ebb and flow of life'_


----------



## Woodznutz (Oct 22, 2022)

Hollie said:


> My problem is the nonsensical redefining of terms because it's really a requirement to make any verse fit a predefined conclusion. I've been shown the manipulation and editing of bible verses to fit a narrative.
> 
> The "four corners" of the earth can be translated, ''_the unknown authors of the bible lived during a time of fear and superstition where knowledge of the natural world was limited and it was thought that angry gods controlled the ebb and flow of life'_


And you are welcome to your interpretation. 

Not to get too personal, but did you have a bad experience involving religion sometime in your past? I knew a guy once who cursed a certain church because his long-time drinking buddy had 'got religion', quit drinking, and joined that church


----------



## Hollie (Oct 22, 2022)

Woodznutz said:


> And you are welcome to your interpretation.


Thanks. I will interpret that to mean you agree with my interpretation.


----------



## Woodznutz (Oct 22, 2022)

Hollie said:


> Thanks. I will interpret that to mean you agree with my interpretation.



I will agree that yours is pretty common among unbelievers.

Please revisit that post. I added something to it.


----------



## james bond (Oct 22, 2022)

Hollie said:


> My problem is the nonsensical redefining of terms because it's really a requirement to make any verse fit a predefined conclusion. I've been shown the manipulation and editing of bible verses to fit a narrative.
> 
> The "four corners" of the earth can be translated, ''_the unknown authors of the bible lived during a time of fear and superstition where knowledge of the natural world was limited and it was thought that angry gods controlled the ebb and flow of life'_


The author was God Himself, so we can trust it.  The global flood killed the dinosaurs.

It goes to show that you are WRONG and do not know.


----------



## surada (Oct 22, 2022)

Woodznutz said:


> Please.
> Infidel (literally:_ unfaithful_) is just the Islamic term for unbeliever, heathen.
> 
> What does it mean to be an infidel?
> The definition of an infidel is a person who you consider a heathen because he does not adhere to the religion you believe is the true religion. When someone does not conform to your religious beliefs, this is an example of someone you might consider an infidel. One who does not believe in a certain principle.



People of the book are not infidels. People who worship the God of Abraham are not infidels.


----------



## surada (Oct 22, 2022)

james bond said:


> The author was God Himself, so we can trust it.  The global flood killed the dinosaurs.
> 
> It goes to show that you are WRONG and do not know.



Holy cow! These are creation myths for bronze age people.


----------



## Woodznutz (Oct 22, 2022)

surada said:


> People of the book are not infidels. People who worship the God of Abraham are not infidels.


Are you saying that there is conformity between Islam and Christianity, and that neither believes the other to be infidels?


----------



## surada (Oct 22, 2022)

Woodznutz said:


> Are you saying that there is conformity between Islam and Christianity, and that neither believes the other to be infidels?



Yep... But uneducated Christians probably don't know that. Muslims revere Jesus and the patriarchs.


----------



## Hollie (Oct 22, 2022)

Woodznutz said:


> I will agree that yours is pretty common among unbelievers.
> 
> Please revisit that post. I added something to it.


When you describe unbelievers I'm assuming that would apply to all non-believing Christians. That group would make up most of the planet. 

Other believers would be moslems. As we know, Islam corrected the errors in Christianity. The obvious interpretation therefore is that you are a believer in a corrupted religion.


----------



## Hollie (Oct 22, 2022)

james bond said:


> The author was God Himself, so we can trust it.  The global flood killed the dinosaurs.
> 
> It goes to show that you are WRONG and do not know.


Your gods authored nothing.


----------



## Woodznutz (Oct 22, 2022)

surada said:


> Yep... But uneducated Christians probably don't know that. Muslims revere Jesus and the patriarchs.


They are the ones who call Christians "People of the Book". They revere Christ as a prophet only, who has been replaced by Mohammed. They believe in the God of Abraham, *Ishmael,* and..., not the God of "Abraham, *Isaac,* and Jacob".


----------



## surada (Oct 22, 2022)

Hollie said:


> When you describe unbelievers I'm assuming that would apply to all non-believing Christians. That group would make up most of the planet.
> 
> Other believers would be moslems. As we know, Islam corrected the errors in Christianity. The obvious interpretation therefore is that you are a believer in a corrupted religion.



Muslims think they received the third revelation. Muhammad preached, save yourselves. I cannot save you. Return to the God of Abraham.


----------



## surada (Oct 22, 2022)

Woodznutz said:


> They are the ones who call Christians "People of the Book". They revere Christ as a prophet only, who has been replaced by Mohammed. They believe in the God of Abraham, *Ishmael,* and..., not the God of "Abraham, *Isaac,* and Jacob".



They believe in Isaac and Jacob.  Remember, Abraham had six sons by his Arab wife Keturah. They think Jesus is the purest of the prophets born of a virgin from the mind of God. Muhammad was the messenger to the people of the Arabian peninsula.


----------



## Woodznutz (Oct 22, 2022)

Hollie said:


> When you describe unbelievers I'm assuming that would apply to all non-believing Christians. That group would make up most of the planet.


The church has always had its 'tares'.


Hollie said:


> Other believers would be moslems. As we know, Islam corrected the errors in Christianity. The obvious interpretation therefore is that you are a believer in a corrupted religion.


People are corrupt, not the religion. Islam is similar to the old covenant, which is long gone. One only needs to look at the misogyny of Islam.


----------



## Woodznutz (Oct 22, 2022)

surada said:


> They believe in Isaac and Jacob.  Remember, Abraham had six sons by his Arab wife Keturah. They think Jesus is the purest of the prophets born of a virgin from the mind of God. Muhammad was the messenger to the people of the Arabian peninsula.


They believe that Ishmael is the true 'son of promise', and was the one offered by Abraham. That's the point of departure.


----------



## surada (Oct 22, 2022)

Woodznutz said:


> The church has always had its 'tares'.
> 
> People are corrupt, not the religion. Islam is similar to the old covenant, which is long gone. One only needs to look at the misogyny of Islam.



Well that's stupid. Muslim women had more rights than their European and/or Christian counterparts until 1950.


----------



## surada (Oct 22, 2022)

Woodznutz said:


> They believe that Ishmael is the true 'son of promise', and was the one offered by Abraham. That's the point of departure.



So...


----------



## Woodznutz (Oct 22, 2022)

surada said:


> Well that's stupid. Muslim women had more rights than their European and/or Christian counterparts until 1950.


I'll have to look into that.


----------



## Woodznutz (Oct 22, 2022)

surada said:


> So...


That puts Islam at odds with Christianity.


----------



## surada (Oct 22, 2022)

Woodznutz said:


> That puts Islam at odds with Christianity.



Actually it doesn't unless you are looking for excuses to hate. Mutual respect is pretty normal in the Arab world. You get as good as you give. Muslim use to manage the livestock for our lifesize manger and Christmas pageant..  The king use to give Christmas gifts to all the Christian children. That's how I met ibn Saud.


----------



## james bond (Oct 22, 2022)

surada said:


> Holy cow! These are creation myths for bronze age people.


It's you who are bronze age.  What evidence do you have for what killed the dinosaurs?


----------



## james bond (Oct 22, 2022)

Hollie said:


> Your gods authored nothing.


The evidence is the Bible and what's in it.  Also, science backs it up while nothing backs up evolution.


----------



## Hollie (Oct 23, 2022)

james bond said:


> The evidence is the Bible and what's in it.  Also, science backs it up while nothing backs up evolution.


Ah. So evidence the Bible is true is the Bible because the Bible is true... and the Bible is evidence the Bible is true.

Is it any wonder you believe in a Flat Earth?


----------



## Hollie (Oct 23, 2022)

james bond said:


> It's you who are bronze age.  What evidence do you have for what killed the dinosaurs?


Other than Ken Ham's amusement park, what evidence do you have that humans frolicked with dinosaurs 6,000 years ago?


----------



## surada (Oct 23, 2022)

james bond said:


> It's you who are bronze age.  What evidence do you have for what killed the dinosaurs?



I didn't say anything about dinosaurs. They went extinct about 60 million years ago. Moses wasn't writing about them.


----------



## Grumblenuts (Oct 23, 2022)

Is there any compelling reason to believe that the Bible's authors were actually aware that dinosaurs had existed before them? If goddidit as someone declared above, why wouldn't she clearly mention the dinosaurs anywhere?


----------



## surada (Oct 23, 2022)

Grumblenuts said:


> Is there any compelling reason to believe that the Bible's authors were actually aware that dinosaurs had existed before them? If goddidit as someone declared above, why wouldn't she clearly mention the dinosaurs anywhere?



Why not? They probably saw fossils. Dinosaurs died out 60 million years ago. This is just ridiculously ignorant.


----------



## Grumblenuts (Oct 23, 2022)

surada said:


> Why not? They probably saw fossils. Dinosaurs died out 60 million years ago. This is just ridiculously ignorant.


Try again. You failed to address the question. How did my simply asking a question of no one in particular get you so triggered?


----------



## surada (Oct 23, 2022)

Grumblenuts said:


> Try again. You failed to address the question. How did my simply asking a question of no one in particular get you so triggered?



Why didn't God write about the dinosaurs?? Is that the question? I'm gobsmacked.


----------



## Grumblenuts (Oct 23, 2022)

surada said:


> Why didn't God write about the dinosaurs?? Is that the question? I'm gobsmacked.


I'll dumb it down for ya then, even though I was asking no one in particular. Are dinosaurs _clearly_ mentioned in the Bible? If so, where? If not, why not?

Could it beeeeee..  SATAN!


----------



## surada (Oct 23, 2022)

Grumblenuts said:


> I'll dumb it down for ya then, even though I was asking no one in particular. Are dinosaurs _clearly_ mentioned in the Bible? If so, where? If not, why not?
> 
> Could it beeeeee..  SATAN!



 Dinosaurs aren't mentioned in the Bible. Just leviathan and behemoth.


----------



## Grumblenuts (Oct 23, 2022)

surada said:


> Dinosaurs aren't mentioned in the Bible. Just leviathan and behemoth.


That's been my assessment as well.

Leviathan:







Both:


----------



## surada (Oct 23, 2022)

Grumblenuts said:


> That's been my assessment as well.
> 
> Leviathan:
> 
> ...



One is the Nile crocodile and the other is a rhinoceros.


----------



## Grumblenuts (Oct 23, 2022)

surada said:


> One is the Nile crocodile and the other is a rhinoceros.


Many apparently disagree. The popular images sure don't help, but clearly not dinosaurs in any case.


----------



## surada (Oct 23, 2022)

Grumblenuts said:


> Many apparently disagree. The popular images sure don't help, but clearly not dinosaurs in any case.



If the earth is only 6000 years old, they would have to claim man lived with dinosaurs.


----------



## Grumblenuts (Oct 23, 2022)

surada said:


> If the earth is only 6000 years old, they would have to claim man lived with dinosaurs.


Both creationists and Christians, at the very least, yes. But more to my point, the gods would have to know about them very clearly. If the Bible were literally "God's word" then "God" was mighty ignorant of her past. And if it were just people responsible, "the inspired word of God" was also mighty ignorant given what we all can now easily see came before, i.e. the various dinosaurs, none of which resemble any of the textual suggestions nor images drawn therefrom. Even provided the people saw fossil remains and had developed some understanding of their origins. Birds with bent beaks, hooves, and a tail? the Loch-Ness monster,.. WTF?


----------



## Woodznutz (Oct 23, 2022)

Grumblenuts said:


> Is there any compelling reason to believe that the Bible's authors were actually aware that dinosaurs had existed before them? If goddidit as someone declared above, why wouldn't she clearly mention the dinosaurs anywhere?


The Bible brings brevity to new levels. We can fill in many blanks however, using reasonable assumptions.


----------



## Woodznutz (Oct 23, 2022)

Grumblenuts said:


> Both creationists and Christians, at the very least, yes. But more to my point, the gods would have to know about them very clearly. If the Bible were literally "God's word" then "God" was mighty ignorant of her past. And if it were just people responsible, "the inspired word of God" was also mighty ignorant given what we all can now easily see came before, i.e. the various dinosaurs, none of which resemble any of the textual suggestions nor images drawn therefrom. Even provided the people saw fossil remains and had developed some understanding of their origins. Birds with bent beaks, hooves, and a tail? the Loch-Ness monster,.. WTF?


The Bible isn't concerned with rehearsing billions of years of earth's past history. We can construct a reasonable history using geologic discoveries combined with some scriptural accounts.


----------



## surada (Oct 23, 2022)

Woodznutz said:


> The Bible isn't concerned with rehearsing billions of years of earth's past history. We can construct a reasonable history using geologic discoveries combined with some scriptural accounts.



You mean that the dinosaurs died out 60 million years ago?


----------



## Woodznutz (Oct 23, 2022)

surada said:


> You mean that the dinosaurs died out 60 million years ago?


Sure.


----------



## surada (Oct 23, 2022)

Woodznutz said:


> Sure.



When did Christians figure that out? Most fundamentalists and evangelicals think man coexisted with dinosaurs.


----------



## Grumblenuts (Oct 23, 2022)

Woodznutz said:


> The Bible brings brevity to new levels. We can fill in many blanks however, using reasonable assumptions.


Brevity? You've got to be kidding. And, yeah, the reasonable assumption obviously being the authors knew nothing of the dinosaurs and neither did your supposed gods. Yet birds are living dinosaurs. You and your Bible can go fish.


----------



## Grumblenuts (Oct 23, 2022)

Woodznutz said:


> The Bible isn't concerned with rehearsing billions of years of earth's past history.


You've never even read it?


----------



## Woodznutz (Oct 24, 2022)

surada said:


> When did Christians figure that out? Most fundamentalists and evangelicals think man coexisted with dinosaurs.


Gap Theory.


----------



## Woodznutz (Oct 24, 2022)

Grumblenuts said:


> Brevity? You've got to be kidding. And, yeah, the reasonable assumption obviously being the authors knew nothing of the dinosaurs and neither did your supposed gods. Yet birds are living dinosaurs. You and your Bible can go fish.


Why would the authors know anything about dinosaurs?


----------



## Woodznutz (Oct 24, 2022)

Grumblenuts said:


> You've never even read it?


Read what?


----------



## Grumblenuts (Oct 24, 2022)

Woodznutz said:


> Read what?


I rest my case.


----------



## Woodznutz (Oct 24, 2022)

Grumblenuts said:


> Brevity? You've got to be kidding.


The Bible is basically the history of Israel and of the early church, not a comprehensive history of the world.


----------



## Woodznutz (Oct 24, 2022)

Grumblenuts said:


> I rest my case.


You know I've read the bible, so what are you referring to?


----------



## james bond (Oct 24, 2022)

surada said:


> Dinosaurs aren't mentioned in the Bible. Just leviathan and behemoth.


Leviathan could have been a crocodile or plesiosaurus.







Behemoth could have been an elephant/hippo or sauropod.






Likely, God was describing dinosaurs, e.g. tail like a cedar tree.

Now, the dragon was a mythical creature, but was referring to Satan.


----------



## surada (Oct 24, 2022)

james bond said:


> Leviathan could have been a crocodile or plesiosaurus.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Dinosaurs went extinct 60 million years ago.


----------



## james bond (Oct 24, 2022)

surada said:


> Dinosaurs went extinct 60 million years ago.


That's what the evos say who made it up (in order to fit their lies... oops theory.

Evidence of dinosaurs and humans living together == Humans with Dinosaurs Evidence.


----------



## surada (Oct 24, 2022)

james bond said:


> That's what the evos say who made it up (in order to fit their lies... oops theory.
> 
> Evidence of dinosaurs and humans living together == Humans with Dinosaurs Evidence.



The ancients also saw fossils.


----------



## Grumblenuts (Oct 24, 2022)

Woodznutz said:


> The Bible is basically the history of Israel and of the early church, not a comprehensive history of the world.





> Which book of the Bible contains the early history of the world and Israel?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Grumblenuts (Oct 24, 2022)

surada said:


> The ancients also saw fossils.





> Did ancient people find fossils?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Woodznutz (Oct 24, 2022)

Grumblenuts,

That is a common belief. However, it doesn't account for the apparent age of the earth. Gap Theory proposes that Genesis 1:1 is a standalone statement describing the original creation of the earth and the universe. Verse 2 describe the condition of the earth that does not comport with the divine creation. The narrative continues with the renewal of the face of the earth in preparation for the creation of man, and the 'restoration of all things', things destroyed in the cataclysm described in verse 2.


----------



## surada (Oct 24, 2022)

Woodznutz said:


> bb



Great article . You should read it. Grumblenuts provided some answers.









						10 Prehistoric Fossils That Were Discovered In Ancient Times - Listverse
					

The first dinosaur bones weren’t found by scientists. They were uncovered thousands of years ago by early men with no way of understanding what they were




					listverse.com


----------



## Woodznutz (Oct 24, 2022)

surada said:


> Great article . You should read it. Grumblenuts provided some answers.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Great article. I've read many such.


----------



## surada (Oct 24, 2022)

Woodznutz said:


> Great article. I've read many such.



Have you ever been to a natural history museum?


----------



## Grumblenuts (Oct 24, 2022)

Woodznutz said:


> Verse 2 describe the condition of the earth that does not comport with the divine creation. The narrative continues with the renewal of the face of the earth in preparation for the creation of man, and the 'restoration of all things', things destroyed in the cataclism described in verse 2.


Yet somehow still neglects to mention the dinosaurs.


----------



## Woodznutz (Oct 24, 2022)

surada said:


> Have you ever been to a natural history museum?


Many times. My favorite is the one in Anchorage, AK. I visited it in the early 1990's.



			Alaska Museum of Science and Nature


----------



## surada (Oct 24, 2022)

Grumblenuts said:


> Yet somehow still neglects to mention the dinosaurs.



Bronze Age myths trump science and education. The message isn't important.


----------



## Woodznutz (Oct 24, 2022)

Grumblenuts said:


> Yet somehow still neglects to mention the dinosaurs.


Lots of information about dinosaurs. No need to include it in the Bible.


----------



## Woodznutz (Oct 24, 2022)

surada said:


> Bronze Age myths trump science and education. The message isn't important.


Actually,_ revelation_ trumps science and education.

S/E: We should care for our teeth.
Revelation: We _must _care for our teeth.

James 1:22
But be ye* doers* of the word, and not *hearers* only, deceiving your own selves.

Biiiiiiiig difference.


----------



## Grumblenuts (Oct 24, 2022)

surada said:


> Have you ever been to a natural history museum?


The Mutter is even butter. What's the Mutter?


----------



## Grumblenuts (Oct 24, 2022)

Woodznutz said:


> Lots of information about dinosaurs. No need to include it in the Bible.


Seemingly any excuse will do.

Biblical creation moves further from science.


----------



## Woodznutz (Oct 24, 2022)

Grumblenuts said:


> Any excuse will do.


And we need to answer to you, why?


----------



## Grumblenuts (Oct 24, 2022)

Woodznutz said:


> And we need to answer to you, why?


"We"? Have you forgotten that you started this topic in the Science and Technology section? Check your mirror!


----------



## Grumblenuts (Oct 24, 2022)

Woodznutz said:


> Revelation: We _must _care for our teeth.


Else burn in Hell!


----------



## Woodznutz (Oct 24, 2022)

Grumblenuts said:


> Seemingly any excuse will do.
> 
> Biblical creation moves further from science.


"Science is the study of creation."


----------



## james bond (Oct 24, 2022)

surada said:


> The ancients also saw fossils.


Are you saying the ancients knew what fossils were lol?  

Those fossils were with other fossils of land animals living today.  They drew and created art from the actual animals.


----------



## Grumblenuts (Oct 24, 2022)

Woodznutz said:


> "Science is the study of creation."


Quoting an infamous Nazi rocket scientist to promote creationism is like quoting Dubya calling a woman working three jobs "uniquely American." Out of touch.


----------



## Woodznutz (Oct 24, 2022)

Grumblenuts said:


> Quoting an infamous Nazi rocket scientist to promote creationism is like quoting Dubya calling a woman working three jobs "uniquely American." Out of touch.


I made up that quote. 

Regarding the problems with piecework at Amazon, there are help wanted signs all over the place.


----------



## Grumblenuts (Oct 24, 2022)

Woodznutz said:


> Regarding the problems with piecework at Amazon, there are help wanted signs all over the place.


Therefore?


----------



## Hollie (Oct 24, 2022)

james bond said:


> That's what the evos say who made it up (in order to fit their lies... oops theory.
> 
> Evidence of dinosaurs and humans living together == Humans with Dinosaurs Evidence.


You copied and pasted a link to a religious extremist site as a joke, right?


----------



## Woodznutz (Oct 25, 2022)

Grumblenuts said:


> Therefore?


Therefore, if they don't like working for Amazon there are other jobs available.

Also, it appears from the article that those employees that are complaining don't actually understand production line work.


----------



## Grumblenuts (Oct 25, 2022)

Woodznutz said:


> Therefore, if they don't like working for Amazon there are other jobs available.
> 
> Also, it appears from the article that those employees that are complaining don't actually understand production line work.


You obviously didn't listen to the podcast. But thanks for playing nonetheless.

"production line work" -- LOL


----------



## Woodznutz (Oct 25, 2022)

Grumblenuts said:


> You obviously didn't listen to the podcast. But thanks for playing nonetheless.
> 
> "production line work" -- LOL


  It's the _production line workers _that are complaining the most, that they aren't given time to 'help' (socialize with) their fellow workers. It's all part of the 'feminization' of the work force, where employees need time to 'nurture relationships' with other employees or they feel they are being abused.


----------



## Grumblenuts (Oct 25, 2022)

Woodznutz said:


> It's the _production line workers _that are complaining the most, that they aren't given time to 'help' (socialize with) their fellow workers. It's all part of the 'feminization' of the work force, where employees need time to 'nurture relationships' with other employees or they feel they are being abused.


_Production lines_ produce products. Amazon workers _pick and ship_ product_ orders_ from their warehouses of products.

Sure, there are parallels that can be drawn between the two. But one needs to recognize the profound differences first. For example, what the hell do you mean by, "It's the _production line workers _that are complaining the most"? You mean the pickers as opposed to the, at most, handful of managers? Well, no worries, they get treated like dirt too. In fact, _the guy_ who first succeeded in unionizing an Amazon warehouse was a manager.

But go ahead. Take any one of those jobs. Do it for a week and report back.. I'd just love to hear how you showed 'em all with your unique style and ease..

Why do you hate women?


----------



## Woodznutz (Oct 25, 2022)

Grumblenuts said:


> _Production lines_ produce products. Amazon workers _pick and ship_ product_ orders_ from their warehouses of products.
> 
> Sure, there are parallels that can be drawn between the two. But one needs to recognize the profound differences first. For example, what the hell do you mean by, "It's the _production line workers _that are complaining the most"? You mean the pickers as opposed to the, at most, handful of managers? Well, no worries, they get treated like dirt too. In fact, _the guy_ who first succeeded in unionizing an Amazon warehouse was a manager.
> 
> ...


Those 'pickers' are_ production line_ workers. Look it up.

I would do well there. I'm very fast with my hands.

I love women, always have.


----------



## Grumblenuts (Oct 25, 2022)

Woodznutz said:


> Those 'pickers' are_ production line_ workers. Look it up.


You look it up. Better yet, like I said, try it yourself! You're in for a rude awakening..


----------



## surada (Oct 25, 2022)

Woodznutz said:


> Actually,_ revelation_ trumps science and education.
> 
> S/E: We should care for our teeth.
> Revelation: We _must _care for our teeth.
> ...



Revelation was written to the first century Christians associated with the 7 churches. The letter was read aloud to the congregants.


----------



## surada (Oct 25, 2022)

james bond said:


> Are you saying the ancients knew what fossils were lol?
> 
> Those fossils were with other fossils of land animals living today.  They drew and created art from the actual animals.



Why not? They could see them.


----------



## Woodznutz (Oct 25, 2022)

Grumblenuts said:


> ...like I said, try it yourself! You're in for a rude awakening..


And you know that how?


----------



## Woodznutz (Oct 25, 2022)

surada said:


> Revelation was written to the first century Christians associated with the 7 churches. The letter was read aloud to the congregants.


I mean general 'revealed' knowledge.


----------



## Woodznutz (Oct 25, 2022)

Grumblenuts said:


> You look it up.


Ok, 'pickers' aren't_ line_ workers, however Amazon employs_ production line_ workers. Your original argument was that Amazon doesn't employ production line workers.


----------



## surada (Oct 25, 2022)

Woodznutz said:


> I mean general 'revealed' knowledge.



Well yeah. In Revelation Jesus says who the letter is for and that it will happen within a generation.


----------



## Grumblenuts (Oct 25, 2022)

Woodznutz said:


> Ok, pickers aren't_ line_ workers, however Amazon employs_ production line_ workers.


Oh, Amazon told you so, did they? Ever consider trying sources having less obvious conflict of interest? No? Not surprised.


> Production Worker job description​A Production Worker is responsible for meeting quality standards and deadlines for products. They check for defects, assemble products, monitor manufacturing equipment, and closely follow safety procedures to prevent accidents in environments where materials may be hazardous.


----------



## Woodznutz (Oct 25, 2022)

Grumblenuts said:


> Oh, Amazon told you so, did they? Ever consider trying sources having less obvious conflict of interest? No? Not surprised.


You'll have to read this on Facebook or Google.









						Amazon Production Line Worker Hourly Pay
					

Average hourly pay for Amazon Production Line Worker: $17. This salary trends is based on salaries posted anonymously by Amazon employees.




					www.glassdoor.com


----------



## Woodznutz (Oct 25, 2022)

surada said:


> Well yeah. In Revelation Jesus says who the letter is for and that it will happen within a generation.


Lots of things have yet to happen.


----------



## Grumblenuts (Oct 25, 2022)

Woodznutz said:


> You'll have to read this on Facebook or Google.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Why would I "have to" read yet another shameless advertisement written, of, by, and for Amazon and Amazon alone? You really are nuts, aren't you?


----------



## surada (Oct 25, 2022)

Woodznutz said:


> Lots of things have yet to happen.



It's all in the past. Christians fled Jerusalem for Pella in the mountains and avoided the tribulation.


----------



## Grumblenuts (Oct 25, 2022)

And no, one need not "go to  Facebook or Google" to read glassdoor.com's actual description of a production worker:









						Production Worker Job Description
					

Production Worker requirements and skills. Qualifications to get hired as a Production Worker. See examples of Production Worker job descriptions from real companies.




					www.glassdoor.com
				




Or simply look up the word "production":


> _noun_
> 
> 
> 1.
> ...


----------



## Woodznutz (Oct 25, 2022)

Grumblenuts said:


> Why would I "have to" read yet another shameless advertisement written, of, by, and for Amazon and Amazon alone? You really are nuts, aren't you?


You really have a problem with Amazon. Whyzat?


----------



## Grumblenuts (Oct 25, 2022)

Woodznutz said:


> You really have a problem with Amazon. Whyzat?


Uh, they're a huge, disgusting monopoly? Besides Jeff Bezos, which other billionaires do you regularly fellate?


----------



## Woodznutz (Oct 25, 2022)

Grumblenuts said:


> Uh, they're a huge, disgusting monopoly? Besides Jeff Bezos, which other billionaires do you regularly fellate?


I buy lots of stuff from Amazon. Best thing that ever happened to shopping. 😍

What is it that they 'monopolize'?


----------



## Woodznutz (Oct 25, 2022)

surada said:


> It's all in the past. Christians fled Jerusalem for Pella in the mountains and avoided the tribulation.


John was to write about things that were happening_ now, soon, and "hereafter". _Chapter 4 begins the _hereafter_ prophecies, which takes us to the end time, Christs' return, and beyond.


----------



## james bond (Oct 27, 2022)

Hollie said:


> You copied and pasted a link to a religious extremist site as a joke, right?


What I posted is a scientific site.  It's the evos who deny God and creation that had to make up some explanation, so they had to make up their own guesses which are wrong or are lies.


----------



## james bond (Oct 27, 2022)

surada said:


> Why not? They could see them.


They could see them when they were living with them and their art work was passed down.  I doubt they drew the animals from their fossils or why don't you tell us what they did with them?  History records their massive findings.


----------



## scruffy (Oct 28, 2022)

Woodznutz said:


> God created the material universe "out of thin air", that is, out of _nothing (_although there is more to the story than this). Science has moved closer to demonstrating this.
> 
> 
> 
> Scientists create matter from nothing in groundbreaking experiment



Already been done.

Google Nambu Goldstone modes.

The more recent more interesting thing is this - not matter, but spacetime itself:









						One Lab’s Quest to Build Space-Time Out of Quantum Particles | Quanta Magazine
					

For over two decades, physicists have pondered how the fabric of space-time may emerge from some kind of quantum entanglement. In Monika Schleier-Smith’s lab at Stanford University…




					www.quantamagazine.org


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## Woodznutz (Oct 28, 2022)

scruffy said:


> Already been done.
> 
> Google Nambu Goldstone modes.
> 
> ...


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## scruffy (Oct 29, 2022)

Woodznutz said:


> View attachment 717340



Science says: there's no such thing as "nothing". Even empty space isn't empty. And the ground state of the vacuum is not unique.

The interesting thing about the Nambu modes is they don't depend on the substrate. The order parameters are the same whether we're looking at ferromagnetism or elementary particles or biological membranes.

And, Nambu modes have a fractal "signature", which is again independent of the underlying physics. You get this any time you have non-unique ground states, which is "all the time" with elementary particles and biological membranes 

There is some very interesting math around this. One learns the difference between zero and zero frequency. Among other things


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## Grumblenuts (Oct 29, 2022)

Woodznutz said:


> I buy lots of stuff from Amazon. Best thing that ever happened to shopping. 😍
> 
> What is it that they 'monopolize'?


Try starting your research with books.


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## Hollie (Oct 29, 2022)

james bond said:


> What I posted is a scientific site.  It's the evos who deny God and creation that had to make up some explanation, so they had to make up their own guesses which are wrong or are lies.


AIG is not a ''scientific site''.  It's a religious Cult.


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## Grumblenuts (Oct 29, 2022)

scruffy said:


> Science says: there's no such thing as "nothing". Even empty space isn't empty. And the ground state of the vacuum is not unique.
> 
> The interesting thing about the Nambu modes is they don't depend on the substrate. The order parameters are the same whether we're looking at ferromagnetism or elementary particles or biological membranes.
> 
> ...


LOL. Just call it the Aether already. Your head will suddenly clear and you'll breathe easily once again.. like you did before ever hearing any QM _(pronounced: any excuse one can cook up to cast doubt upon or deny the Aether will do)_ propaganda.


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## Woodznutz (Oct 29, 2022)

Grumblenuts said:


> Try starting your research with books.


Some argue that Amazon is a monopoly, but it fails the 'monopoly' test.


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## badger2 (Oct 31, 2022)

surada said:


> Revelation was written to the first century Christians associated with the 7 churches. The letter was read aloud to the congregants.


John, alone and tweaking out on Patmos while writing the revelation, is not exactly the avatar for today's world. Knowledge (including secular faith) is replacing religious faith. Biden's catholic church is scrambling to re-organize so as to appear modern.


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## surada (Oct 31, 2022)

james bond said:


> They could see them when they were living with them and their art work was passed down.  I doubt they drew the animals from their fossils or why don't you tell us what they did with them?  History records their massive findings.



You underestimate the human imagination. The dinosaurs died out 60 million years ago. Genesis says nothing about them. You have a brain, use it. Do you think humans were around 60 million years ago? Rock paintings all over the world depict animals.


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## Fort Fun Indiana (Nov 3, 2022)

Woodznutz said:


> You should send us to your reeducation camp.


I know you are bummed you have no actual victim card to play. No need to get desperate.


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## Woodznutz (Nov 3, 2022)

Fort Fun Indiana said:


> I know you are bummed you have no actual victim card to play. No need to get desperate.


?


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## james bond (Nov 4, 2022)

surada said:


> You underestimate the human imagination. The dinosaurs died out 60 million years ago. Genesis says nothing about them. You have a brain, use it. Do you think humans were around 60 million years ago? Rock paintings all over the world depict animals.


Behemoth is a sauropod while Leviathan is a very large marine reptile in Job.

Secular scientists used their imagination and came up with evolution.  It isn't based on anything.  Where is your human history?  Where is the evidence of ape-humans and other transitions?

That is a lot of time to account for.  Moreover, we do not see any hybrid animals or any evidence of it happening today.  Where is your evidence for that?

Creationists have fossils with soft tissue still inside and radiocarbon dating shows the fossils are young.  There is no common ancestry. 

The Bible tells us that winged animals or birds (day 5) came before land animals including dinosaurs (day 6).  Evos have it backwards.

OTOH, God gave us a birth certificate.  We can add up the human history dates and come up with around 6K years.


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## surada (Nov 4, 2022)

james bond said:


> Behemoth is a sauropod while Leviathan is a very large marine reptile in Job.
> 
> Secular scientists used their imagination and came up with evolution.  It isn't based on anything.  Where is your human history?  Where is the evidence of ape-humans and other transitions?
> 
> ...



Behemoth is a Nile hippo..Leviathan is the Nile crocodile. Dinosaurs died out 60 million years ago.


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## surada (Nov 4, 2022)

james bond said:


> Behemoth is a sauropod while Leviathan is a very large marine reptile in Job.
> 
> Secular scientists used their imagination and came up with evolution.  It isn't based on anything.  Where is your human history?  Where is the evidence of ape-humans and other transitions?
> 
> ...



Could be I guess. Birds evolved from dinosaurs.


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## Grumblenuts (Nov 4, 2022)

surada said:


> Dinosaurs died out 60 million years ago.





surada said:


> Birds evolved from dinosaurs.


Birds are surviving dinosaurs.


> When nearly every dinosaur went extinct 66 million years ago, the only ones that survived were those that had shrunk—that is, the birds. Today, there are 10,000 species of these feathered fliers, making them the most diverse of all the four-limbed animals. A new study reveals why this lineage has been so successful: Birds started downsizing well before the rest of the dinosaurs disappeared.


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## surada (Nov 4, 2022)

Grumblenuts said:


> Birds are surviving dinosaurs.



Actually that makes sense.


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## james bond (Nov 4, 2022)

surada said:


> Behemoth is a Nile hippo..Leviathan is the Nile crocodile. Dinosaurs died out 60 million years ago.


That's not what the Bible says.  Land animals on sixth day.  Winged animals on the fifth.  Even popular media talks about a great behemoth and leviathan as dinosaurs.


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## surada (Nov 4, 2022)

james bond said:


> That's not what the Bible says.  Land animals on sixth day.  Winged animals on the fifth.  Even popular media talks about a great behemoth and leviathan as dinosaurs.



Popular is often ignorant. Have you ever worked as a chemical engineer? I know several from GA tech, Auburn and MIT.. All are Christians but not creationists.


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## james bond (Nov 4, 2022)

surada said:


> Popular is often ignorant. Have you ever worked as a chemical engineer? I know several from GA tech, Auburn and MIT.. All are Christians but not creationists.


The popular MYTHOLOGY is with evos.  They believe we all evolved from a single cell.  Nothing of the kind happens today with a single cell.  They remain single cells until they die.  Look, I'm still waiting for a fossil of an ape-human.  Evos have no transitional fossils.


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## surada (Nov 4, 2022)

james bond said:


> The popular MYTHOLOGY is with evos.  They believe we all evolved from a single cell.  Nothing of the kind happens today with a single cell.  They remain single cells until they die.  Look, I'm still waiting for a fossil of an ape-human.  Evos have no transitional fossils.



You don't understand the theory of evolution.


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## Grumblenuts (Nov 4, 2022)

james bond said:


> Look, I'm still waiting for a fossil of an ape-human. Evos have no transitional fossils.


Look!








						Ardipithecus - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org


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## surada (Nov 4, 2022)

Grumblenuts said:


> Look!
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Wow.. but even they came along 50 million years after the dinosaurs were extinct.


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## Grumblenuts (Nov 4, 2022)

surada said:


> You don't understand the theory of evolution.


Nor does James grok








						Mitosis - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org


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## Hollie (Nov 4, 2022)

james bond said:


> The popular MYTHOLOGY is with evos.  They believe we all evolved from a single cell.  Nothing of the kind happens today with a single cell.  They remain single cells until they die.  Look, I'm still waiting for a fossil of an ape-human.  Evos have no transitional fossils.


There are many examples of transitional fossils. Religious extremists are just ignorant of the facts.


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## surada (Nov 4, 2022)

Hollie said:


> There are many examples of transitional fossils. Religious extremists are just ignorant of the facts.



Reactionary religionists are like the Taliban and Boko Haram. The reject science, education and modernity. It's fear driven.


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## Grumblenuts (Nov 4, 2022)

Biblical reaction to attempted imposition of stupid upon GA


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## james bond (Nov 5, 2022)

surada said:


> You don't understand the theory of evolution.


Sure, I do.  It's a LIE.


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## james bond (Nov 5, 2022)

Hollie said:


> There are many examples of transitional fossils. Religious extremists are just ignorant of the facts.


Like the coelacanth?  Tell us about that.


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## Hollie (Nov 5, 2022)

james bond said:


> Like the coelacanth?  Tell us about that.



Like the coelacanth. There. I just told you about that.


Like the Flat Earth? Tell us about that.


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## james bond (Nov 7, 2022)

Hollie said:


> Like the coelacanth. There. I just told you about that.
> 
> 
> Like the Flat Earth? Tell us about that.


You show us your ignorance about S&T with every post.


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## surada (Nov 7, 2022)

james bond said:


> Sure, I do.  It's a LIE.



You should read Our Inner Ape. God truly is greater than you know.


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## Hollie (Nov 10, 2022)

james bond said:


> You show us your ignorance about S&T with every post.


Jeebus loves me. Yes he does.


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## james bond (Nov 14, 2022)

surada said:


> You should read Our Inner Ape. God truly is greater than you know.


There is no God involved in that book.  It doesn't give us the right to commit violence and group violence like with the chimps and apes.


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## james bond (Nov 14, 2022)

Hollie said:


> Jeebus loves me. Yes he does.


He prolly loves me more.

God loves everyone and understands that our sin nature affects atheists into thinking there is no God.  The start is to just believe there is Jesus, God and the Holy Spirit as one.


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## surada (Nov 14, 2022)

james bond said:


> There is no God involved in that book.  It doesn't give us the right to commit violence and group violence like with the chimps and apes.



It's about chimps and apes, but also about bonobos..


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