# Dealing With A Disobedient Dog



## Noomi

Well, lately he has been. He's a three year old Border Collie, and in the past two days, he's pissed on the couch. Just cocked his leg and pissed on it.

Last night he did it, and he knew he had done wrong. This morning while my mum was in the bathroom, he did it again.

We know that BC's require lots of exercise, but there are always times when you don't have time to take the dog for a walk every night. He goes around four times a week, for a good, long run. The other days he gets to play ball we tire him out.
When he goes for a walk, no matter how far you take him, he comes home and wants to continue playing. He's very demanding.

Plus, he barks to get attention, and if you tell him to stop, he humps your leg. Literally flings himself at you and batters away at your leg, and will continue to do it until you have shaken him off enough times.

He's been trained, as have all our dogs, he just seems to be going through his stage where he is disobedient. 

For those who own dogs, is just a stage, like a toddler stage for dogs? He's a good dog most of the time, we love him to death, he wants for nothing, but it seems he is just ungrateful for the love we give him.

Its driving us nuts! Can any dog lovers here give us some tips on how to deal with this?


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## PixieStix

Is he neutered?


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## uscitizen

Has he been watching Glen Beck?


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## PixieStix

That dog sounds like most guys I know


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## earlycuyler

Noomi said:


> Well, lately he has been. He's a three year old Border Collie, and in the past two days, he's pissed on the couch. Just cocked his leg and pissed on it.
> 
> Last night he did it, and he knew he had done wrong. This morning while my mum was in the bathroom, he did it again.
> 
> We know that BC's require lots of exercise, but there are always times when you don't have time to take the dog for a walk every night. He goes around four times a week, for a good, long run. The other days he gets to play ball we tire him out.
> When he goes for a walk, no matter how far you take him, he comes home and wants to continue playing. He's very demanding.
> 
> Plus, he barks to get attention, and if you tell him to stop, he humps your leg. Literally flings himself at you and batters away at your leg, and will continue to do it until you have shaken him off enough times.
> 
> He's been trained, as have all our dogs, he just seems to be going through his stage where he is disobedient.
> 
> For those who own dogs, is just a stage, like a toddler stage for dogs? He's a good dog most of the time, we love him to death, he wants for nothing, but it seems he is just ungrateful for the love we give him.
> 
> Its driving us nuts! Can any dog lovers here give us some tips on how to deal with this?




I use this, and NO! allot. Works quick, and the look on their face after you blast them is golden.


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## Toro

Noomi said:


> Well, lately he has been. He's a three year old Border Collie, and in the past two days, he's pissed on the couch. Just cocked his leg and pissed on it.
> 
> Last night he did it, and he knew he had done wrong. This morning while my mum was in the bathroom, he did it again.
> 
> We know that BC's require lots of exercise, but there are always times when you don't have time to take the dog for a walk every night. He goes around four times a week, for a good, long run. The other days he gets to play ball we tire him out.
> When he goes for a walk, no matter how far you take him, he comes home and wants to continue playing. He's very demanding.
> 
> Plus, he barks to get attention, and if you tell him to stop, he humps your leg. Literally flings himself at you and batters away at your leg, and will continue to do it until you have shaken him off enough times.
> 
> He's been trained, as have all our dogs, he just seems to be going through his stage where he is disobedient.
> 
> For those who own dogs, is just a stage, like a toddler stage for dogs? He's a good dog most of the time, we love him to death, he wants for nothing, but it seems he is just ungrateful for the love we give him.
> 
> Its driving us nuts! Can any dog lovers here give us some tips on how to deal with this?



It's not about love.

It's about discipline.

We have an Aussie Shepherd.  They're like BCs but not as high strung. 

We were told, its "exercise, discipline, affection" in that order.

Follow that with your pup.


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## Noomi

PixieStix said:


> Is he neutered?



Yep. He got the chop before we picked him up. He belonged to a friend of a friend, who had to move and couldn't keep him, so we 'adopted' him.


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## PixieStix

Noomi said:


> PixieStix said:
> 
> 
> 
> Is he neutered?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yep. He got the chop before we picked him up. He belonged to a friend of a friend, who had to move and couldn't keep him, so we 'adopted' him.
Click to expand...


Did he mate before he was neutered, or do you know? That can be a factor


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## Katzndogz

Border Collies are hard to handle dogs.  For one thing they are the most intelligent of all dog breeds.  Because they are so intelligent, they are disobedient and destructive.   Border collies do not make the best pets.  A nice long walk doesn't satisfy them.  Border collies are workaholics who must have a job to do that will occupy their minds as well as exercise their bodies.   Long walks do not do it for a border collie.   You are lucky that he's telling you his bored by pissing on the couch rather than taking it apart to see what it's made of.

I'm afraid that an occasional long walk and rousing game of fetch isn't going to help your dog.  If you get interested in something like agility training where he has something to think about as well as something to do he will be a much better dog.    It sounds like your dog is highly intelligent, even for the breed (which is phenomenal), and he will take well to an intensive, thought provoking, outlet.


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## Noomi

He is very smart, Katz. He watches TV - he sat down and watched the whole 90 of 'Red Dog' the other weekend,. He watches cartoons as well. He goes for rides in our van and knows how to work the electric windows - so he winds it down and gets the breeze.

We are trying to do more with him, its not easy, though, given the fact that all four of us work. 

Thanks for the advice, though - I will check out this agility training you mention, see if we can't try that out.


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## rdean

Have you tried putting it in an "airtight" box on the roof of your car?


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## Noomi

rdean said:


> Have you tried putting it in an "airtight" box on the roof of your car?



Never!


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## rdean

Noomi said:


> rdean said:
> 
> 
> 
> Have you tried putting it in an "airtight" box on the roof of your car?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Never!
Click to expand...


Good, I would never do that either.  Some on this board though, I don't know.


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## Claudette

Katzndogz said:


> Border Collies are hard to handle dogs.  For one thing they are the most intelligent of all dog breeds.  Because they are so intelligent, they are disobedient and destructive.   Border collies do not make the best pets.  A nice long walk doesn't satisfy them.  Border collies are workaholics who must have a job to do that will occupy their minds as well as exercise their bodies.   Long walks do not do it for a border collie.   You are lucky that he's telling you his bored by pissing on the couch rather than taking it apart to see what it's made of.
> 
> I'm afraid that an occasional long walk and rousing game of fetch isn't going to help your dog.  If you get interested in something like agility training where he has something to think about as well as something to do he will be a much better dog.    It sounds like your dog is highly intelligent, even for the breed (which is phenomenal), and he will take well to an intensive, thought provoking, outlet.



I agree. I've had two in my life. 

They are so smart they scare you. They are not couch potatoes. 

Agility, Obedience, Herding, Fly Ball and if your a long distance jogger. These activities would go a long way toward making your BC livable. 

I agree that they don't make good pets. They are way to smart and need an outlet for that energy. 

I did herding and obedience with my two and they were great. One, Jake, lived to age 14. Red the other lived to be 16 yrs old. 

Great dogs but not for someone looking for a couch potatoe.


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## Katzndogz

There is a small sheep ranch in Malibu where the rich herding dogs from Beverly Hills go for fun.  It costs a fortune.

I went to an organization's picnic a couple of years ago.  Two people, who did not know each other, brought border collies who never saw each other before.  The dogs decided. between themselves, to guard the playground.   They rounded up kids who wandered out and herded them back to the playground.   They also KNEW when a kid had to go to the bathroom and went along as guard dog to the park rest room with the child.

I have a poodle, which is the second most intelligent dog.  She is scary smart.  She watches television, has her favorite shows,  and communicates primarily by vocalizing rather than barking.   I have learned how to recognize what some of her vocalizations means.   She has a dog sitter whom she has trained to also recognize what her vocalizations mean so he is able to give her a cookie, water and a walk when she asks.   

There are puzzle toys for highly intelligent dogs.  It might be worth it to look into something like that also.


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## flacaltenn

Gotta suggest that you try CONSISTENCY and ROUTINE. Even if it requires some sacrifices, it's better to be walking and playing on a regular schedule than cleaning a couch.. 

Walking him SOMETIMES in the evening is bad. Because the dog is looking for ritual and routine. Let him EXPECT that walk every night even if you have to farm it out. Same with potty breaks, meals and play times. 

If you reward him with a trip to the park -- don't do it for a couple days and then quit. My dogs KNOW it's the weekend. And if going for a ride is part of the weekend -- they will EXPECT it. 

That behaviour could be a sure sign of dissappointment or anxiety because the schedule is just too loose.


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## Noomi

Yep - every weekend he goes in the van with dad who takes him for his walk. He gets antsy because he hasn't worked out yet when the weekend is. That is his major treat and he loves it.


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## flacaltenn

Noomi said:


> Yep - every weekend he goes in the van with dad who takes him for his walk. He gets antsy because he hasn't worked out yet when the weekend is. That is his major treat and he loves it.



They THRIVE on regular routine and get pesky and act out when there is none or the routine is interrupted. Especially the younger ones. 

For males, the height of their existence is to pee multiple times on a walk to distribute their "message" as far as possible. So if the dog KNOWS that a walk is coming up -- they will save up their bladder for the experience. You dissapoint that dog and disaster is almost certain..


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## Noomi

flacaltenn said:


> Noomi said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yep - every weekend he goes in the van with dad who takes him for his walk. He gets antsy because he hasn't worked out yet when the weekend is. That is his major treat and he loves it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> They THRIVE on regular routine and get pesky and act out when there is none or the routine is interrupted. Especially the younger ones.
> 
> For males, the height of their existence is to pee multiple times on a walk to distribute their "message" as far as possible. So if the dog KNOWS that a walk is coming up -- they will save up their bladder for the experience. You dissapoint that dog and disaster is almost certain..
Click to expand...


Cooper will leave his mark on just about every tree and bush he comes across on his walks. He really stores up that pee!


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## Bfgrn

Noomi said:


> Well, lately he has been. He's a three year old Border Collie, and in the past two days, he's pissed on the couch. Just cocked his leg and pissed on it.
> 
> Last night he did it, and he knew he had done wrong. This morning while my mum was in the bathroom, he did it again.
> 
> We know that BC's require lots of exercise, but there are always times when you don't have time to take the dog for a walk every night. He goes around four times a week, for a good, long run. The other days he gets to play ball we tire him out.
> When he goes for a walk, no matter how far you take him, he comes home and wants to continue playing. He's very demanding.
> 
> Plus, he barks to get attention, and if you tell him to stop, he humps your leg. Literally flings himself at you and batters away at your leg, and will continue to do it until you have shaken him off enough times.
> 
> He's been trained, as have all our dogs, he just seems to be going through his stage where he is disobedient.
> 
> For those who own dogs, is just a stage, like a toddler stage for dogs? He's a good dog most of the time, we love him to death, he wants for nothing, but it seems he is just ungrateful for the love we give him.
> 
> Its driving us nuts! Can any dog lovers here give us some tips on how to deal with this?



The first thing to understand is how a dog's senses are different than humans. And how they are prioritized in each. Both humans and dogs have the same three senses: sight, hearing and smelling, however while most humans communicate by hearing, seeing, and then smelling, dogs primarily communicate by smelling, seeing and lastly hearing. 

A dog interprets the world predominantly by smell, whereas a human interprets it by sight. A dog&#8217;s sense of smell is about 1,000 to 10,000,000 times more sensitive than a human&#8217;s (depending on the breed).

If there is a female in heat as far as 3 miles away, your dog might be reacting to that scent.

In Mexico; grown-ups control dogs and children...in America: dogs and children control grow-ups...
Cesar Millan


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## koshergrl

He needs exercise and a job. Four adults in the house and nobody can walk him? If you each did 10 minutes that would be 40 minutes.


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## Katzndogz

Walking a border collie isn't good enough.  Not for this kind of dog.  So he walks around, big deal.  He needs something to occupy his mind, not just his legs.


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## koshergrl

My son had a wonderful border collie when he was a teen... the dog went everywhere with him. He was a wonderful dog, but he put many miles on him every single day. He didn't shut him up in the house day after day and expect him not to develop behavior issues. 

They are not house dogs. If you're going to have one it either needs to be outside, on a "place" (not just a fenced yard) or it needs to be doing something constructive for a certain number of hours each day.


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## Toro

Katzndogz said:


> Walking a border collie isn't good enough.  Not for this kind of dog.  So he walks around, big deal.  He needs something to occupy his mind, not just his legs.



My dog does my taxes.


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## mememe

Noomi said:


> Well, lately he has been. He's a three year old Border Collie, and in the past two days, he's pissed on the couch. Just cocked his leg and pissed on it.
> 
> Last night he did it, and he knew he had done wrong. This morning while my mum was in the bathroom, he did it again.
> 
> We know that BC's require lots of exercise, but there are always times when you don't have time to take the dog for a walk every night. He goes around four times a week, for a good, long run. The other days he gets to play ball we tire him out.
> When he goes for a walk, no matter how far you take him, he comes home and wants to continue playing. He's very demanding.
> 
> Plus, he barks to get attention, and if you tell him to stop, he humps your leg. Literally flings himself at you and batters away at your leg, and will continue to do it until you have shaken him off enough times.
> 
> He's been trained, as have all our dogs, he just seems to be going through his stage where he is disobedient.
> 
> For those who own dogs, is just a stage, like a toddler stage for dogs? He's a good dog most of the time, we love him to death, he wants for nothing, but it seems he is just ungrateful for the love we give him.
> 
> Its driving us nuts! Can any dog lovers here give us some tips on how to deal with this?



Get another one, and let them entertain each other!


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## koshergrl

Two dogs like that entertaining each other would be a bad mistake.

In fact, mostly two dogs together in a house is a bad mistake. They're fine when you're there...the minute you step out of the house, all bets are off.

I have a terrier and a saint, when I'm not in the house, they're in separate rooms because together they decimate the house and annoy all the neighbors...the terrier keeps the big dog hyped up and barking and they play tug of war with my couch.


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## koshergrl

And it's better to have one unexercised, anxious, freaked out dog than two.


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## MikeK

Noomi said:


> Well, lately he has been. He's a three year old Border Collie, and in the past two days, *he's pissed on the couch. Just cocked his leg and pissed on it.*
> 
> Last night he did it, and he knew he had done wrong. *This morning while my mum was in the bathroom, he did it again.*
> 
> We know that BC's require lots of exercise, but there are always times when you don't have time to take the dog for a walk every night. He goes around four times a week, for a good, long run. The other days he gets to play ball we tire him out.
> When he goes for a walk, no matter how far you take him, he comes home and wants to continue playing. *He's very demanding.*
> 
> Plus, *he barks to get attention, and if you tell him to stop, he humps your leg.* Literally flings himself at you and *batters away at your leg, and will continue to do it until you have shaken him off enough times.*
> 
> He's been trained, as have all our dogs, he just seems to be going through his stage where he is disobedient.
> 
> For those who own dogs, is just a stage, like a toddler stage for dogs? He's a good dog most of the time, we love him to death, he wants for nothing, but it seems *he is just ungrateful for the love we give him.*
> 
> Its driving us nuts! Can any dog lovers here give us some tips on how to deal with this?


_". . . he is just ungrateful for the love we give him."_  And therein lies the tale!  

He certainly does seem ungrateful for the love you give him, which he's clearly come to take for granted.  So I suggest you give him something else and see how he likes that.  Border collies are smart dogs.  It won't take him long to figure out which response he dislikes and how not to provoke it.  

However, animal psychologists condemn my reasoning as that of a dog Nazi.  So if your Mum prefers to follow the advice of the animal behaviorists I suggest you shop around for some urine-resistant furniture and get accustomed to the odor of dog piss.

While nice is preferable, when nice doesn't work I firmly believe in the _spare the rod and spoil the child_ ideology.


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## koshergrl

You don't get abject servility from cattle dogs. They're work partners.


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## MikeK

koshergrl said:


> You don't get abject servility from cattle dogs. They're work partners.


But when your purpose is to adapt a _cattle dog_ to living in a human household it is necessary to employ expedient measures.  If you're not willing to do that -- get a chihuahua, a yorkie, or a dachshund instead.

And I prefer the term _reasonable cooperation_ to "abject servility."


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## Big Black Dog

Tie a string around his pecker.  Just kidding.  What has changed in his daily routine?


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## Noomi

Nothing. He doesn't like the fact that we all work and he is often alone by himself, but he should be used to that. 

He is so demanding when you get home though. I arrive home from a 9 hour shift at work and he grabs his ball and starts barking, demanding I go outside and play. I want to rest, I don't want to play just yet, but he expects it. 

He'll get his walk tomorrow, so that is something.


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## mememe

Noomi said:


> Nothing. He doesn't like the fact that we all work and he is often alone by himself, but he should be used to that.
> 
> He is so demanding when you get home though. I arrive home from a 9 hour shift at work and he grabs his ball and starts barking, demanding I go outside and play. I want to rest, I don't want to play just yet, but he expects it.
> 
> He'll get his walk tomorrow, so that is something.



All right, if getting another dog is not an option, get a child!


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## koshergrl

Noomi said:


> Nothing. He doesn't like the fact that we all work and he is often alone by himself, but he should be used to that.
> 
> He is so demanding when you get home though. I arrive home from a 9 hour shift at work and he grabs his ball and starts barking, demanding I go outside and play. I want to rest, I don't want to play just yet, but he expects it.
> 
> He'll get his walk tomorrow, so that is something.


 
You need to give him to someone who doesn't resent him. You're going to make him nutty and he obviously is already miserable. I don't blame him.

He has been cooped up all day with no interaction. You're his world. Yes, he's frantic to let off some steam and have some real interaction with you when you get home. That's what having a dog is. Interaction. You don't shut him up all day and then get home and expect him to ignore you, and then expect sympathy when you piss and moan that he isn't grateful enough for what little you do.

What an ass.

Here's what your daily schedule should look like:

Get up before work, feed him, change his water, take him out for a trot around the block.
Go to work.
Get off work, play with the dog for an hour or so outside. Put him through his paces.

Then you get to rest. Two hours a day isn't that big a committment when you consider he's shut up in your house the other 22 hours of the day. Death Row inmates follow that sort of schedule.

If you aren't up for it, you shouldn't have a dog. Particularly a high energy, smart dog. Get a fucking cat.


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## Noomi

Koshergrl, he's not my dog, He's my mums dog - so is the other Border. She has back problems with started only recently so she can't exercise the dogs as much as she would like.

I start work at 5am most mornings - there is no way I can take the dog for a walk then, and besides, she wouldn't let me. Cooper is very strong and she reckons he will be too strong for me. He expects her to take him for a walk but she can't and I am starting to wonder why we have him when we can't walk him that often.


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## koshergrl

It doesn't matter. I don't like it when I hear people complaining about what a pet isn't doing for them, how they aren't sufficiently grateful or understanding of all the reasons why their lives are miserable.

If he's difficult to walk, then you need to train him to walk on a leash. If I could train my saint I'm sure you could train your mom's pets...that could be the time you spend together each day...You don't have to go far (I've done this) just put the leash on him and take him out in the yard and walk around the yard, dealing with whatever it is he does right there.

I do sympathize despite it though, I know it's difficult. But it's one of those things, you have to do it, it's the responsibility of having a dog. But you have to change your mindset...so if the dog can't be taken for walks, start by tackling the first challenge...maybe it's going through the door. Maybe he charges the door, pushes past you, hits the end of the leash before you're through...well then take 20 minutes to practice proper enter/exit protocol...put the leash on and go through the door, and then back, making him wait for you. Or if it's when you hit the sidewalk he starts to drag on the leash, ok, then practice going out to the sidewalk and back to the house until he stops...it takes some dogs more repetition than others. But Border Collies are smart. If you just take a tiny bit of trouble, he'll learn fast.


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## Katzndogz

A border collie needs more than a daily walk.  These are working dogs.   They need a job to do or find him another home.  He's BORED and a daily walk won't change that.  Go down to the pet store and see if they have any puzzle toys for dogs.  Start some kind of training program that gives him something to think about.   


I do hope you aren't a weirdo who thinks that putting animals to work is abuse.


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## koshergrl

The best way to deal with a dog who pulls on the leash...walk walk walk walk then suddenly spin and walk the opposite way, and just let the leash do what it does, then walk walk walk and turn suddenly in another direction. They pick up quickly that they need to focus on you, and keep the leash loose. 

It's how I broke my dog of dragging me around. There were some walks that consisted of me just changing direction every 15 feet or so. 

Also I taught him to walk behind me whenever we're on a narrow trail or walkway. He doesn't get to go first. He would LIKE to, but he's not the boss. So I go first and he walks behind me.


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## Noomi

Yeah, Cooper has learned that if he pulls, he gets turned around until he behaves, then we walk back the other way again. He catches on quickly -Suki still hasn't caught on, no matter how many times you stop and start, stop and start, she just refuses to walk beside mum!

Cooper was a right mongrel this morning, he decided to piss on the couch again. I come home from work, hung out the washing and played a game of ball with him. I had to take a nap because I've been sick the past few days, and when I woke up, I found the couch wet. Cooper was under my bed, I called his name, pointed down the hall toward the couch, and he bolted outside. He knew he did wrong, but he didn't seem at all bothered by it.

I'm not happy and neither is mum.


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## koshergrl

It doesn't do any good to get mad at him after the fact, and they do that sort of urination as a form of acting out.

Where do you play ball with him, and for how long?


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## Noomi

koshergrl said:


> It doesn't do any good to get mad at him after the fact, and they do that sort of urination as a form of acting out.
> 
> Where do you play ball with him, and for how long?



In the backyard. We are on a full acre, so he has plenty of space to run. He'll run from one end of the yard and back and forth for a good half hour (he gets a little bored if you go any longer than that) until he sits down - he's basically saying he's exhausted. Then he'll come inside, drink, then sleep until he is ready to go again. He shouldn't have pissed anywhere because I gave him a good workout. I just don't understand what he was so angry about?


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## koshergrl

I don't know, it sounds like you're always angry with him. That makes them neurotic.They aren't neurotic on their own.


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## Noomi

koshergrl said:


> I don't know, it sounds like you're always angry with him. That makes them neurotic.They aren't neurotic on their own.



I'm not usually mad at him. I really do like him, especially when he comes over for a cuddle and sleeps on my feet at night. He's a great dog and gets a ton of praise. I just get mad when he pisses everywhere because it stinks and we have to clean it up. 

Now the younger dog has gotten the idea that if Cooper can piss inside, so can he. So the Jack Russell had a piss inside as well, in the bedroom this time. 

Its exasperating at times, I swear! I wish we had cats, I am more of a cat person, anyway - and they don't piss inside!


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## koshergrl

Omg, you've got a border collie and a jack russell?

I do pity you...and cats absolutely piss inside, hahaha and it smells even worse.

I had a couple of Rottie mixes who would occasionally piss and shit on my flipping BED. It had nothing to do with them having to go to the bathroom...one memorable event took place just a few minutes after I'd let them in from outside...I let them into the house, then ran out to the car to get the groceries and guess what was waiting for me?


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## Noomi

koshergrl said:


> Omg, you've got a border collie and a jack russell?
> 
> I do pity you...and cats absolutely piss inside, hahaha and it smells even worse.
> 
> I had a couple of Rottie mixes who would occasionally piss and shit on my flipping BED. It had nothing to do with them having to go to the bathroom...one memorable event took place just a few minutes after I'd let them in from outside...I let them into the house, then ran out to the car to get the groceries and guess what was waiting for me?



Ooh...nasty - how'd you deal with that, though? How would you punish a dog for doing wrong, and for how long afterward?

Yes, we have two Borders - Cooper and Suki, whose a female, and the Jack Russell is Trever. Cooper was the last to join the family, Suki was first.


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## koshergrl

I didn't leave them alone in the house, and I especially didn't shut them in the house even for a few minutes right after getting home and letting them into the house.

They were in a kennel, and we brought them in when we got home...they'd run around for a minute and then go into the house, and I had just shut the door behind me on my way out to the car to get the groceries. 

I'm not big on "punishment". It doesn't work, it makes things worse. You just have to modify modify modify until you figure out the best approach...I have made a lot of mistakes down through the years, but they've all been my mistakes, not the dogs', and I don't hold the dogs responsible when I haven't figured stuff out. They're just being dogs. If they act weird, it's because they're in a weird situation.


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## Noomi

They should probably spend more time outside, but they have always been inside dogs. We don't like leaving them alone, but we all work and its not possible to be there all the time. A few hours away I could understand their frustration, but a few minutes?


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## koshergrl

Lol..they're dogs. They're reacting to something, that's what they do. You have to figure out what it is and change the situation.


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## koshergrl

But I know those three dogs are a serious committment, and if nobody is spending considerable time with them outside, engaging their minds and tiring their bodies, they're going to be miserable..and so are you.


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## editec

Noomi said:


> Well, lately he has been. He's a three year old Border Collie, and in the past two days, he's pissed on the couch. Just cocked his leg and pissed on it.
> 
> Last night he did it, and he knew he had done wrong. This morning while my mum was in the bathroom, he did it again.
> 
> We know that BC's require lots of exercise, but there are always times when you don't have time to take the dog for a walk every night. He goes around four times a week, for a good, long run. The other days he gets to play ball we tire him out.
> When he goes for a walk, no matter how far you take him, he comes home and wants to continue playing. He's very demanding.
> 
> Plus, he barks to get attention, and if you tell him to stop, he humps your leg. Literally flings himself at you and batters away at your leg, and will continue to do it until you have shaken him off enough times.
> 
> He's been trained, as have all our dogs, he just seems to be going through his stage where he is disobedient.
> 
> For those who own dogs, is just a stage, like a toddler stage for dogs? He's a good dog most of the time, we love him to death, he wants for nothing, but it seems he is just ungrateful for the love we give him.
> 
> Its driving us nuts! Can any dog lovers here give us some tips on how to deal with this?


 
It's a freaking corder collie. They're arguably the smartest breed of dogs extant.

The poor creature is probably bored to death.

However, dogs that are pissing in appropriately may be trying to tell you something else, too.

Like for example, they have some kind of internal infection.

You might want to consider taking him to the vet just to check that out.

If you could give your dog some job, he'd probably stop driving you nuts.

Border collies LIKE to have something REAL to do.

Border Collies seem to have some kind of protestant work ethic.

Give that dog a creature to guard and boss around and he would probably be as happy as a border collies can be.

Great dogs, ya know?


----------



## koshergrl

Plus I imagine the JR is driving everybody nuts, just on principle.


----------



## tinydancer

Boy I chewed thru this thread. First thing I'd wrap your brain around Noomi and this is not a criticism but to change your thought process as a human.

He's not being disobedient. He's misbehaving. I'm not giving him a pass on his bad actions here, just trying to put it in perspective.

Think about it. Disobedient is when a command is given and not obeyed. This is misbehaving, but I bet dollars to donuts he doesn't see it that way. 

You and your mother sound like awesome dog owners but you're just having an "issue" with this beastie. And from what I've read in this thread you've had him checked out so this is not an issue for the vet. 

First thing I would do is deny the dog access to the couch. Stop the bad behavior. And if the JRT is now doing it, this boils down to marking.

In one of your posts you stated that this dog is like "supreme marker" beyond when you go on walks. My Bad Ass was that way. I swear to the good Lord above I've never had a dog who could squeeze out one last drop to mark where my neighbour's dog had whizzed. 

I think that's where you have to start from. It's not about urinating on the couch, it's about marking the couch. 

So temporarily deny him that access. Next up, nice and simple here, make the couch so unappealing that he never wants to mark it again.

You have to descent the couch. And make it not desirable to be marked. 

Now you could put up a photo of Amy Winehouse.... keeeeeeeeeding but the easiest dog repellent ever is chili powder. 

All natural and I've even been able to drive skunks and cats out of a garden with it.

Because this is a piece of furniture in your home, here's how to do it. Take masking tape and make a giant loop and tape it to the corner he prefers.

Then spread the chili powder on the masking tape. Now he's going to get the sneezies, but it won't hurt him. And you won't stain the couch. 

Oh and a quick note before you start the chili powder, descent with hunters descenting products. There are so many on the market that are excellent I won't recommend one over the other.

 But get that indoor fire hydrant aka your couch to not be a sniff/marker haven.

I understand other people posts and agree with the recommendations of more "working moments" but I think the marking is a completely different issue. And in my humble opinion I think that's the problem.

I bred some of the hardest working dogs on the planet. Catahoulas can do a swamp for hogs and can do a cattle roundup all on the same day. I love working dogs. 

Here's a pic of the male I was talking about who had marking issues when he was a puppy. This is him as a young pup. This is my American Bad Ass. He was one fine beastie. I miss him so.


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## koshergrl

^^^^AWESOME^^^^

I've never heard better advice.

Keep in mind, any time you spend with the dogs teaching them something is "working" time. Your dogs will gobble up the attention, and you will be AMAZED at how different their behavior is if you just spend any time at all teaching them something. Don't wait until they do something destructive, recognize behavior and then work on changing it.

You'll also be amazed at how amenable they usually are. 

That doesn't mean you won't meet with resistance and the occasional flash back, but it's the interaction. They will love the stuff that TD suggests, they'll be all interested in it and fascinated. They might not GET it at first, but just keep at it, eventually you can make your desires understood and they will abide by them.

It is a work in progress of course. In my house things are going along just swimmingly, when suddenly my saint's sort of cute vocalizations become straight up barking, loudly, repeatedly, at me, when I'm in bed. At about 9 pm and hey at 3:30 in the morning! Woo hoo!

You gotta just roll with it, lol. I roll with the fact that my  house smells slightly (ok, very) doggy and there is dog hair and drool on every surface, including walls and ceilings. Do I like it? No, not really. Did I plan for it? Uh, nope. But I love the dog and he's part of our family.


----------



## koshergrl

OOOh.....dog pics...


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## koshergrl

Klaus is on the ground..the other (shaved) saint belongs to a friend of mine who came to visit for a few days. I was skeptical about the whole shaving thing but he said that the dog just couldn't handle the heat of New Mexico and has an incredibly bushy coat. He's older than my boy. The groomer left his tail long because they rely on that brush to protect/swish their butt (and I won't go into details but that's important, lol. It has to do with poop and glands and such). 

Yes, that's my living room. It's like a comfy kennel that we are allowed to share.


----------



## koshergrl

Recent of Klaus and my son's rednose, Snoop. Snoop had a lot of fun this day, but the next day he was stiff...


----------



## koshergrl




----------



## koshergrl

A friend's heeler pup...






That pup with his mom 





This is the pup, I can't remember what his name is...Bill, I think. ^






They're out there working, but I only see one by the horse in this pic...


----------



## koshergrl




----------



## koshergrl

My son was the victim of a vicious attack:


----------



## koshergrl

My footprint next to klaus'...I wear a size 9-10 women's shoe.


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## koshergrl




----------



## koshergrl

Klaus likes to get big sticks and keep them away from Snoop, who gets ticked because he can't get it from Klaus unless he gets rough. And Klaus tries to lure him into the water, because Klaus is comfortable jumping around in water that knocks the smaller dogs off their feet, lol.


----------



## koshergrl

I took klaus out for a quick walk at noon. Sometimes I think people wonder if it's worth it if you only have 15 minutes to spend outside with a dog...I have learned it absolutely is. Even 15 minutes is better than no minutes, and if you can manage 15 minutes a couple or three times a day, your dog feels like he's roaming and it satisfies something in their doggy brains. 

It certainly isn't enough to tire them out physically, but engaging their minds can have the same effect as straight up long distance running....

I only had 10-15 minutes but he needed to get out of the house so I put the leash on him and walked him the length of the block, which is kind of shrubby and nice...wide sidewalk, a meridian of river rock between the walk and the street on one side and a grassy/brushy swath on the other that gives you some breathing room. Then there's a house at the end, with a low little fence..we got there and there were a couple of pooches that started barking. Of course Klaus could just step over the fence, and he wasn't expecting them so he jumped at the end of the leash but didn't get loose. So I worked with that for a minute, just letting the doggies bark while I had him heel, and sit, then the lady came out and after a minute we moved closer to the fence so he was able to sort of meet the two through the fence...but he had to sit. Then we said goodbye and left, and he was such a good boy, didn't fuss about it...we hurried home...

All that happened in 10 minutes, but it was a big thing for him. He got to check out the surrounding area and meet a couple of dogs he hears barking and sees walking by pretty regularly.

I'm not always able to take the dogs out for 40 minutes at a stretch, to let them run all the kinks out. In fact, I seldom am able to do that. Sometimes I do, but what I've found is that the thing is to just keep them with you all the time you can. You might not be running down the beach or chasing cows, or have acres where the dogs can just roam on the place...but if you keep your dog with you all the time that you can, then they can adapt to that. So when I go outside to dink around, to pick up poop or get the mail, I take Klaus. If I only have 20 minutes and I know he needs to get out, I take him out for 20 minutes. 

And it puts him in a good spot for this evening, when we have a football game, which means he's going to be in the house alone in the evening, which isn't our normal routine. Then I'll be able to take him out later this evening, probably after dark...and it will be just in front of the house again, because I can't walk past the corners of the block because of the kids. So I walk back and forth in front of the house. 

I'm sure people think I'm nuts just walking back and forth in front of my house, but we do what we have to do.


----------



## Noomi

Last night I was watching Trever having his daily roll around on the carpet - he gets frisky and this is what he does, as well as making these weird noises and getting a tad excited - he gets up, shakes himself, then, as brazen as can be, trots over to the couch and cocks his blasted leg! He pissed on the damned couch. I sent him outside straight away but he didn't seem to care that he had done wrong. Cooper knows when he has done the wrong thing, but Trev, no remorse at all!

He does it either because he can smell the scent of Cooper's urine, or because he is lazy. I would say its because he's lazy. He goes outside for a wee, instead of peeing on the grass, he will just piss beside the picnic table on the patio. He's a little overweight, refuses to eat dry food because Cooper gets a mix or dry and wet (Cooper had his teeth filed down before we got him so its harder for him to chew) and doesn't even show any interest in playing ball. He barks like mad when the balls come out, but he refuses to run and catch one.

Lazy little shit he is!


----------



## waltky

A rolled up newspaper across the nose does wonders...

... gets their attention...

... and doesn't do any real harm.


----------



## Sarah G

Noomi said:


> Last night I was watching Trever having his daily roll around on the carpet - he gets frisky and this is what he does, as well as making these weird noises and getting a tad excited - he gets up, shakes himself, then, as brazen as can be, trots over to the couch and cocks his blasted leg! He pissed on the damned couch. I sent him outside straight away but he didn't seem to care that he had done wrong. Cooper knows when he has done the wrong thing, but Trev, no remorse at all!
> 
> He does it either because he can smell the scent of Cooper's urine, or because he is lazy. I would say its because he's lazy. He goes outside for a wee, instead of peeing on the grass, he will just piss beside the picnic table on the patio. He's a little overweight, refuses to eat dry food because Cooper gets a mix or dry and wet (Cooper had his teeth filed down before we got him so its harder for him to chew) and doesn't even show any interest in playing ball. He barks like mad when the balls come out, but he refuses to run and catch one.
> 
> Lazy little shit he is!



How do you stand the smell of all that urine?  You should get them dog houses and throw them out of the house.


----------



## gallantwarrior

Noomi said:


> Nothing. He doesn't like the fact that we all work and he is often alone by himself, but he should be used to that.
> 
> He is so demanding when you get home though. I arrive home from a 9 hour shift at work and he grabs his ball and starts barking, demanding I go outside and play. I want to rest, I don't want to play just yet, but he expects it.
> 
> He'll get his walk tomorrow, so that is something.



If schedules and failing health prevent proper care of an animal with high activity demands, especially a dog that has been bred to do a job, it would be kindest to find him a job.  Have you considered giving him over to someone who has Harding animals?


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## gallantwarrior

Noomi said:


> Koshergrl, he's not my dog, He's my mums dog - so is the other Border. She has back problems with started only recently so she can't exercise the dogs as much as she would like.
> 
> I start work at 5am most mornings - there is no way I can take the dog for a walk then, and besides, she wouldn't let me. Cooper is very strong and she reckons he will be too strong for me. He expects her to take him for a walk but she can't and I am starting to wonder why we have him when we can't walk him that often.



Your Mum really should consider giving him up.  His behavioral issues will only increase given the situation you have described.


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## gallantwarrior

Noomi said:


> koshergrl said:
> 
> 
> 
> I don't know, it sounds like you're always angry with him. That makes them neurotic.They aren't neurotic on their own.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not usually mad at him. I really do like him, especially when he comes over for a cuddle and sleeps on my feet at night. He's a great dog and gets a ton of praise. I just get mad when he pisses everywhere because it stinks and we have to clean it up.
> 
> Now the younger dog has gotten the idea that if Cooper can piss inside, so can he. So the Jack Russell had a piss inside as well, in the bedroom this time.
> 
> Its exasperating at times, I swear! I wish we had cats, I am more of a cat person, anyway - and they don't piss inside!
Click to expand...


You can't claim to be a cat person and not know that they are far more likely than dogs to employ inappropriate urination to express thei displeasure.


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## gallantwarrior

koshergrl said:


> Omg, you've got a border collie and a jack russell?
> 
> I do pity you...and cats absolutely piss inside, hahaha and it smells even worse.
> 
> I had a couple of Rottie mixes who would occasionally piss and shit on my flipping BED. It had nothing to do with them having to go to the bathroom...one memorable event took place just a few minutes after I'd let them in from outside...I let them into the house, then ran out to the car to get the groceries and guess what was waiting for me?



I had one cat who would punish me by pissing on the stove top...talk about a stink!  Only thing that smells worse than cat piss is burning cat piss!


----------



## gallantwarrior

Noomi said:


> koshergrl said:
> 
> 
> 
> I don't know, it sounds like you're always angry with him. That makes them neurotic.They aren't neurotic on their own.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not usually mad at him. I really do like him, especially when he comes over for a cuddle and sleeps on my feet at night. He's a great dog and gets a ton of praise. I just get mad when he pisses everywhere because it stinks and we have to clean it up.
> 
> Now the younger dog has gotten the idea that if Cooper can piss inside, so can he. So the Jack Russell had a piss inside as well, in the bedroom this time.
> 
> Its exasperating at times, I swear! I wish we had cats, I am more of a cat person, anyway - and they don't piss inside!
Click to expand...


Here's another hint, if you have a Jack, DO NOT get a cat.  Jack's are ratters and are notorious for killing cats and other small animals.


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## koshergrl

That's certainly true. We are a no-cat household. And our yard is a no (live, anyway) cat yard. Mylo kills them if they run from her, or don't see her. If they turn to face her, she'll eventually leave them alone..but once they show they're nervous, or if they don't see her, or if they actually run, she kills them.

I don't understand why you're playing with the dog in the house. I think a lot of your problem is you just don't understand dogs.

They need to be outside a LOT for peeing purposes. It should be the first thing you do when you get up, the last thing before you go to bed, and every hour or so if you can swing it except when sleeping. If not, then the first thing you should do when you come into the house is let them out....and if you play with them, as soon as the activity slows, if you aren't already outside, you need to get them out, because that is when they pee/mark. As soon as that dog turns away from you or walks away, you should be calling him to the door...you have to PREVENT this stuff from happening by understanding WHEN it's going to happen and stopping it. If you can do that, eventually the dog will get out of the *habit* of doing it, but you have to be pro-active, and you have to be aware. 

I'm sorry, I don't think the dog is the one who's lazy.


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## koshergrl

Why you would watch him saunter over to a spot you KNOW the dogs mark without jumping up and calling him outside is beyond me.


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## koshergrl

My son's dog always pisses on my Christmas tree, though..every freaking year. And we are certainly not lazy. But he's definitely marking...we're still trying to get my son to fix him. He doesn't pee in anyone else's house but he'll piss here and there in my house.

So he doesn't get to stay inside when he visits anymore....at least not just to wander around. 

He did find the big box (plastic!) with all the Christmas decorations in it in the garage though (including the fake tree) and he ALWAYS pees on it, lolol...

The tree is going to have to go. I think it has reached saturation.


----------



## Katzndogz

gallantwarrior said:


> Noomi said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> koshergrl said:
> 
> 
> 
> I don't know, it sounds like you're always angry with him. That makes them neurotic.They aren't neurotic on their own.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not usually mad at him. I really do like him, especially when he comes over for a cuddle and sleeps on my feet at night. He's a great dog and gets a ton of praise. I just get mad when he pisses everywhere because it stinks and we have to clean it up.
> 
> Now the younger dog has gotten the idea that if Cooper can piss inside, so can he. So the Jack Russell had a piss inside as well, in the bedroom this time.
> 
> Its exasperating at times, I swear! I wish we had cats, I am more of a cat person, anyway - and they don't piss inside!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You can't claim to be a cat person and not know that they are far more likely than dogs to employ inappropriate urination to express thei displeasure.
Click to expand...


When I was young, single and had a cat, he gave me a 10pm curfew.   If I came home after ten, he peed in my shoes.  If he couldn't get a shoe, he'd pee in the bed.


----------



## Sarah G

Katzndogz said:


> gallantwarrior said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Noomi said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not usually mad at him. I really do like him, especially when he comes over for a cuddle and sleeps on my feet at night. He's a great dog and gets a ton of praise. I just get mad when he pisses everywhere because it stinks and we have to clean it up.
> 
> Now the younger dog has gotten the idea that if Cooper can piss inside, so can he. So the Jack Russell had a piss inside as well, in the bedroom this time.
> 
> Its exasperating at times, I swear! I wish we had cats, I am more of a cat person, anyway - and they don't piss inside!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You can't claim to be a cat person and not know that they are far more likely than dogs to employ inappropriate urination to express thei displeasure.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> When I was young, single and had a cat, he gave me a 10pm curfew.   If I came home after ten, he peed in my shoes.  If he couldn't get a shoe, he'd pee in the bed.
Click to expand...


What did you do when he peed in your bed?  Buy a new mattress or sleep on that one.


----------



## Katzndogz

Sarah G said:


> Katzndogz said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> gallantwarrior said:
> 
> 
> 
> You can't claim to be a cat person and not know that they are far more likely than dogs to employ inappropriate urination to express thei displeasure.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> When I was young, single and had a cat, he gave me a 10pm curfew.   If I came home after ten, he peed in my shoes.  If he couldn't get a shoe, he'd pee in the bed.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> What did you do when he peed in your bed?  Buy a new mattress or sleep on that one.
Click to expand...


I soaked it in Nature's Miracle and slept on the other side until it dried.  You can use Hydrogen Peroxide too.  My friend had a cat that objected to her doing homework when she was in law school.  He would drag her clothes out of the hamper and pee on them.  If the cat was REALLY mad, he'd claw her underwear to shreds.

Animals have ways of dealing with disobedient owners.  My dog gives "lectures".   She will get in your face and read you the riot act until you follow instructions.   She has a sitter while I'm at school, it took my dog only a few weeks to teach the sitter simple commands like "walk, water, cookie".   The sitter is now as obedient as a human can be.  My dog is the second most intelligent of all dog breeds, she's a poodle.  I have no patience in dog training, nor do I want a dog with the decision making ability of a ten year old child.  

In this situation.  I really don't see a disobedient dog.  I see a poorly equipped owner with a lot of excuses on why she's poorly equipped.    Not all dogs are suitable for all owners.  A border collie is extremely intelligent and extremely active.   A dog less intelligent (but not as stupid as say, an Afghan) will be easier to train and not as apt as to think for themselves.

Here is a list of dog breeds ranked by intelligence.


1.	Border Collie
2.	Poodle
3.	German Shepherd
4.	Golden Retriever
5.	Doberman Pinscher
6.	Shetland Sheepdog
7.	Labrador Retriever
8.	Papillon
9.	Rottweiler
10.	Australian cattle dog
11.	Pembroke Welsh corgi
12.	Miniature schnauzer
13.	English springer spaniel
14.	Belgian Tervuren
15.	Schipperke Belgian sheepdog
16.	Collie Keeshond
17.	German short-haired pointer
18.	Flat-coated retriever; English cocker spaniel; Standard schnauzer
19.	Brittany spaniel
20.	Cocker spaniel; Nova Scotia duck tolling retriever*
21.	Weimaraner
22.	Belgian Malinois; Bernese Mountain dog
23.	Pomeranian
24.	Irish water spaniel
25.	Vizsla
26.	Cardigan Welsh corgi
27.	Chesapeake Bay retriever; Puli; Yorkshire terrier
28.	Giant schnauzer; Portuguese water dog
29.	Airedale; Bouvier des Flandres
30.	Border terrier; Briard
31.	Welsh springer spaniel
32.	Manchester terrier
33.	Samoyed
34.	Field spaniel; Newfoundland; Australian terrier; American Staffordshire terrier; Gordon setter; Bearded collie
35.	American Eskimo dog*; Cairn terrier; Kerry blue terrier; Irish setter
36.	Norwegian elkhound
37.	Affenpinscher; Silky terrier Miniature pinscher; English setter; Pharaoh hound; Clumber spaniel
38.	Norwich terrier
39.	Dalmatian
40.	Soft-coated wheaten terrier; Bedlington terrier; Smooth-haired fox terrier
41.	Curly-coated retriever; Irish wolfhound
42.	Kuvasz; Australian shepard
43.	Saluki; Finnish spitz; Pointer
44.	Cavalier King Charles spaniel; German wirehaired pointer; Black-and-tan coonhound; American water spaniel
45.	Siberian husky; Bichon fries; English toy spaniel
46.	Tibetan spaniel; English foxhound; Otterhound; American foxhound; Greyhound; Harrier*; Parson Russell terrier*; Wirehaired pointing griffon
47.	West Highland white terrier; Havanese*; Scottish deerhound
48.	Boxer; Great Dane
49.	Dachshund; Staffordshire bull terrier; Shiba Inu*
50.	Malamute
51.	Whippet; Chinese shar-pei; Wirehaired fox terrier
52.	Rhodesian ridgeback
53.	Ibizan hound; Welsh terrier; Irish terrier
54.	Boston terrier; Akita
55.	Skye terrier
56.	Norfolk terrier; Sealyham terrier
57.	Pug
58.	French bulldog
59.	Brussels griffon; Maltese terrier
60.	Italian greyhound
61.	Chinese crested
62.	Dandie Dinmont terrier; Vendeen; Tibetan terrier; Japanese chin; Lakeland terrier
63.	Old English sheepdog
64.	Great Pyrenees
65.	Scottish terrier; Saint Bernard
66.	Bull terrier; Petite Basset Griffon; Vendeen*
67.	Chihuahua
68.	Lhasa apso
69.	Bullmastiff
70.	Shih Tzu
71.	Basset hound
72.	Mastiff; Beagle
73.	Pekingese
74.	Bloodhound
75.	Borzoi
76.	Chow chow
77.	Bulldog
78.	Basenji
79.	Afghan hound

For this family a border terrier would be a much better pet than a border collie.


----------



## Sarah G

Katzndogz said:


> Sarah G said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Katzndogz said:
> 
> 
> 
> When I was young, single and had a cat, he gave me a 10pm curfew.   If I came home after ten, he peed in my shoes.  If he couldn't get a shoe, he'd pee in the bed.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What did you do when he peed in your bed?  Buy a new mattress or sleep on that one.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I soaked it in Nature's Miracle and slept on the other side until it dried.  You can use Hydrogen Peroxide too.  My friend had a cat that objected to her doing homework when she was in law school.  He would drag her clothes out of the hamper and pee on them.  If the cat was REALLY mad, he'd claw her underwear to shreds.
> 
> Animals have ways of dealing with disobedient owners.  My dog gives "lectures".   She will get in your face and read you the riot act until you follow instructions.   She has a sitter while I'm at school, it took my dog only a few weeks to teach the sitter simple commands like "walk, water, cookie".   The sitter is now as obedient as a human can be.  My dog is the second most intelligent of all dog breeds, she's a poodle.  I have no patience in dog training, nor do I want a dog with the decision making ability of a ten year old child.
> 
> In this situation.  I really don't see a disobedient dog.  I see a poorly equipped owner with a lot of excuses on why she's poorly equipped.    Not all dogs are suitable for all owners.  A border collie is extremely intelligent and extremely active.   A dog less intelligent (but not as stupid as say, an Afghan) will be easier to train and not as apt as to think for themselves.
> 
> Here is a list of dog breeds ranked by intelligence.
> 
> 
> 1.	Border Collie
> 2.	Poodle
> 3.	German Shepherd
> 4.	Golden Retriever
> 5.	Doberman Pinscher
> 6.	Shetland Sheepdog
> 7.	Labrador Retriever
> 8.	Papillon
> 9.	Rottweiler
> 10.	Australian cattle dog
> 11.	Pembroke Welsh corgi
> 12.	Miniature schnauzer
> 13.	English springer spaniel
> 14.	Belgian Tervuren
> 15.	Schipperke Belgian sheepdog
> 16.	Collie Keeshond
> 17.	German short-haired pointer
> 18.	Flat-coated retriever; English cocker spaniel; Standard schnauzer
> 19.	Brittany spaniel
> 20.	Cocker spaniel; Nova Scotia duck tolling retriever*
> 21.	Weimaraner
> 22.	Belgian Malinois; Bernese Mountain dog
> 23.	Pomeranian
> 24.	Irish water spaniel
> 25.	Vizsla
> 26.	Cardigan Welsh corgi
> 27.	Chesapeake Bay retriever; Puli; Yorkshire terrier
> 28.	Giant schnauzer; Portuguese water dog
> 29.	Airedale; Bouvier des Flandres
> 30.	Border terrier; Briard
> 31.	Welsh springer spaniel
> 32.	Manchester terrier
> 33.	Samoyed
> 34.	Field spaniel; Newfoundland; Australian terrier; American Staffordshire terrier; Gordon setter; Bearded collie
> 35.	American Eskimo dog*; Cairn terrier; Kerry blue terrier; Irish setter
> 36.	Norwegian elkhound
> 37.	Affenpinscher; Silky terrier Miniature pinscher; English setter; Pharaoh hound; Clumber spaniel
> 38.	Norwich terrier
> 39.	Dalmatian
> 40.	Soft-coated wheaten terrier; Bedlington terrier; Smooth-haired fox terrier
> 41.	Curly-coated retriever; Irish wolfhound
> 42.	Kuvasz; Australian shepard
> 43.	Saluki; Finnish spitz; Pointer
> 44.	Cavalier King Charles spaniel; German wirehaired pointer; Black-and-tan coonhound; American water spaniel
> 45.	Siberian husky; Bichon fries; English toy spaniel
> 46.	Tibetan spaniel; English foxhound; Otterhound; American foxhound; Greyhound; Harrier*; Parson Russell terrier*; Wirehaired pointing griffon
> 47.	West Highland white terrier; Havanese*; Scottish deerhound
> 48.	Boxer; Great Dane
> 49.	Dachshund; Staffordshire bull terrier; Shiba Inu*
> 50.	Malamute
> 51.	Whippet; Chinese shar-pei; Wirehaired fox terrier
> 52.	Rhodesian ridgeback
> 53.	Ibizan hound; Welsh terrier; Irish terrier
> 54.	Boston terrier; Akita
> 55.	Skye terrier
> 56.	Norfolk terrier; Sealyham terrier
> 57.	Pug
> 58.	French bulldog
> 59.	Brussels griffon; Maltese terrier
> 60.	Italian greyhound
> 61.	Chinese crested
> 62.	Dandie Dinmont terrier; Vendeen; Tibetan terrier; Japanese chin; Lakeland terrier
> 63.	Old English sheepdog
> 64.	Great Pyrenees
> 65.	Scottish terrier; Saint Bernard
> 66.	Bull terrier; Petite Basset Griffon; Vendeen*
> 67.	Chihuahua
> 68.	Lhasa apso
> 69.	Bullmastiff
> 70.	Shih Tzu
> 71.	Basset hound
> 72.	Mastiff; Beagle
> 73.	Pekingese
> 74.	Bloodhound
> 75.	Borzoi
> 76.	Chow chow
> 77.	Bulldog
> 78.	Basenji
> 79.	Afghan hound
> 
> For this family a border terrier would be a much better pet than a border collie.
Click to expand...


Are dumber dogs nicer?

You might want to watch out posting stuff like this, I told someone once that Pomeranians weren't very bright and that person got pretty insane about it.


----------



## The Infidel

Noomi said:


> Its driving us nuts! Can any dog lovers here give us some tips on how to deal with this?


----------



## WillowTree

Listen people. Anyone who lets a cat pee all over the place is nutz. Put him in a crate when you leave. or put him in a room, with his litter box, and leave him there til he learns the rules. Sheesh.


----------



## WillowTree

Crate the dog too.


----------



## gallantwarrior

Katzndogz said:


> gallantwarrior said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Noomi said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not usually mad at him. I really do like him, especially when he comes over for a cuddle and sleeps on my feet at night. He's a great dog and gets a ton of praise. I just get mad when he pisses everywhere because it stinks and we have to clean it up.
> 
> Now the younger dog has gotten the idea that if Cooper can piss inside, so can he. So the Jack Russell had a piss inside as well, in the bedroom this time.
> 
> Its exasperating at times, I swear! I wish we had cats, I am more of a cat person, anyway - and they don't piss inside!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You can't claim to be a cat person and not know that they are far more likely than dogs to employ inappropriate urination to express thei displeasure.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> When I was young, single and had a cat, he gave me a 10pm curfew.   If I came home after ten, he peed in my shoes.  If he couldn't get a shoe, he'd pee in the bed.
Click to expand...


I've had cats who didn't approve of my overnight "guests".  Imagine how they felt when donning their clothes after breakfast, only to find out that the damned cat decided they were unsuitable?


----------



## gallantwarrior

Katzndogz said:


> Sarah G said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Katzndogz said:
> 
> 
> 
> When I was young, single and had a cat, he gave me a 10pm curfew.   If I came home after ten, he peed in my shoes.  If he couldn't get a shoe, he'd pee in the bed.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What did you do when he peed in your bed?  Buy a new mattress or sleep on that one.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I soaked it in Nature's Miracle and slept on the other side until it dried.  You can use Hydrogen Peroxide too.  My friend had a cat that objected to her doing homework when she was in law school.  He would drag her clothes out of the hamper and pee on them.  If the cat was REALLY mad, he'd claw her underwear to shreds.
> 
> Animals have ways of dealing with disobedient owners.  My dog gives "lectures".   She will get in your face and read you the riot act until you follow instructions.   She has a sitter while I'm at school, it took my dog only a few weeks to teach the sitter simple commands like "walk, water, cookie".   The sitter is now as obedient as a human can be.  My dog is the second most intelligent of all dog breeds, she's a poodle.  I have no patience in dog training, nor do I want a dog with the decision making ability of a ten year old child.
> 
> In this situation.  I really don't see a disobedient dog.  I see a poorly equipped owner with a lot of excuses on why she's poorly equipped.    Not all dogs are suitable for all owners.  A border collie is extremely intelligent and extremely active.   A dog less intelligent (but not as stupid as say, an Afghan) will be easier to train and not as apt as to think for themselves.
> 
> Here is a list of dog breeds ranked by intelligence.
> 
> 
> 1.	Border Collie
> 2.	Poodle
> 3.	German Shepherd
> 4.	Golden Retriever
> 5.	Doberman Pinscher
> 6.	Shetland Sheepdog
> 7.	Labrador Retriever
> 8.	Papillon
> 9.	Rottweiler
> 10.	Australian cattle dog
> 11.	Pembroke Welsh corgi
> 12.	Miniature schnauzer
> 13.	English springer spaniel
> 14.	Belgian Tervuren
> 15.	Schipperke Belgian sheepdog
> 16.	Collie Keeshond
> 17.	German short-haired pointer
> 18.	Flat-coated retriever; English cocker spaniel; Standard schnauzer
> 19.	Brittany spaniel
> 20.	Cocker spaniel; Nova Scotia duck tolling retriever*
> 21.	Weimaraner
> 22.	Belgian Malinois; Bernese Mountain dog
> 23.	Pomeranian
> 24.	Irish water spaniel
> 25.	Vizsla
> 26.	Cardigan Welsh corgi
> 27.	Chesapeake Bay retriever; Puli; Yorkshire terrier
> 28.	Giant schnauzer; Portuguese water dog
> 29.	Airedale; Bouvier des Flandres
> 30.	Border terrier; Briard
> 31.	Welsh springer spaniel
> 32.	Manchester terrier
> 33.	Samoyed
> 34.	Field spaniel; Newfoundland; Australian terrier; American Staffordshire terrier; Gordon setter; Bearded collie
> 35.	American Eskimo dog*; Cairn terrier; Kerry blue terrier; Irish setter
> 36.	Norwegian elkhound
> 37.	Affenpinscher; Silky terrier Miniature pinscher; English setter; Pharaoh hound; Clumber spaniel
> 38.	Norwich terrier
> 39.	Dalmatian
> 40.	Soft-coated wheaten terrier; Bedlington terrier; Smooth-haired fox terrier
> 41.	Curly-coated retriever; Irish wolfhound
> 42.	Kuvasz; Australian shepard
> 43.	Saluki; Finnish spitz; Pointer
> 44.	Cavalier King Charles spaniel; German wirehaired pointer; Black-and-tan coonhound; American water spaniel
> 45.	Siberian husky; Bichon fries; English toy spaniel
> 46.	Tibetan spaniel; English foxhound; Otterhound; American foxhound; Greyhound; Harrier*; Parson Russell terrier*; Wirehaired pointing griffon
> 47.	West Highland white terrier; Havanese*; Scottish deerhound
> 48.	Boxer; Great Dane
> 49.	Dachshund; Staffordshire bull terrier; Shiba Inu*
> 50.	Malamute
> 51.	Whippet; Chinese shar-pei; Wirehaired fox terrier
> 52.	Rhodesian ridgeback
> 53.	Ibizan hound; Welsh terrier; Irish terrier
> 54.	Boston terrier; Akita
> 55.	Skye terrier
> 56.	Norfolk terrier; Sealyham terrier
> 57.	Pug
> 58.	French bulldog
> 59.	Brussels griffon; Maltese terrier
> 60.	Italian greyhound
> 61.	Chinese crested
> 62.	Dandie Dinmont terrier; Vendeen; Tibetan terrier; Japanese chin; Lakeland terrier
> 63.	Old English sheepdog
> 64.	Great Pyrenees
> 65.	Scottish terrier; Saint Bernard
> 66.	Bull terrier; Petite Basset Griffon; Vendeen*
> 67.	Chihuahua
> 68.	Lhasa apso
> 69.	Bullmastiff
> 70.	Shih Tzu
> 71.	Basset hound
> 72.	Mastiff; Beagle
> 73.	Pekingese
> 74.	Bloodhound
> 75.	Borzoi
> 76.	Chow chow
> 77.	Bulldog
> 78.	Basenji
> 79.	Afghan hound
> 
> For this family a border terrier would be a much better pet than a border collie.
Click to expand...


My favorite house dog is #69, my favorite working dog, #64.  
My Pyr is fantastic at her job and loves being with her goats.  
People contemplating a dog should clearly determine why they want a dog and then research breed characteristics.


----------



## gallantwarrior

Sarah G said:


> Katzndogz said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sarah G said:
> 
> 
> 
> What did you do when he peed in your bed?  Buy a new mattress or sleep on that one.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I soaked it in Nature's Miracle and slept on the other side until it dried.  You can use Hydrogen Peroxide too.  My friend had a cat that objected to her doing homework when she was in law school.  He would drag her clothes out of the hamper and pee on them.  If the cat was REALLY mad, he'd claw her underwear to shreds.
> 
> Animals have ways of dealing with disobedient owners.  My dog gives "lectures".   She will get in your face and read you the riot act until you follow instructions.   She has a sitter while I'm at school, it took my dog only a few weeks to teach the sitter simple commands like "walk, water, cookie".   The sitter is now as obedient as a human can be.  My dog is the second most intelligent of all dog breeds, she's a poodle.  I have no patience in dog training, nor do I want a dog with the decision making ability of a ten year old child.
> 
> In this situation.  I really don't see a disobedient dog.  I see a poorly equipped owner with a lot of excuses on why she's poorly equipped.    Not all dogs are suitable for all owners.  A border collie is extremely intelligent and extremely active.   A dog less intelligent (but not as stupid as say, an Afghan) will be easier to train and not as apt as to think for themselves.
> 
> Here is a list of dog breeds ranked by intelligence.
> 
> 
> 1.	Border Collie
> 2.	Poodle
> 3.	German Shepherd
> 4.	Golden Retriever
> 5.	Doberman Pinscher
> 6.	Shetland Sheepdog
> 7.	Labrador Retriever
> 8.	Papillon
> 9.	Rottweiler
> 10.	Australian cattle dog
> 11.	Pembroke Welsh corgi
> 12.	Miniature schnauzer
> 13.	English springer spaniel
> 14.	Belgian Tervuren
> 15.	Schipperke Belgian sheepdog
> 16.	Collie Keeshond
> 17.	German short-haired pointer
> 18.	Flat-coated retriever; English cocker spaniel; Standard schnauzer
> 19.	Brittany spaniel
> 20.	Cocker spaniel; Nova Scotia duck tolling retriever*
> 21.	Weimaraner
> 22.	Belgian Malinois; Bernese Mountain dog
> 23.	Pomeranian
> 24.	Irish water spaniel
> 25.	Vizsla
> 26.	Cardigan Welsh corgi
> 27.	Chesapeake Bay retriever; Puli; Yorkshire terrier
> 28.	Giant schnauzer; Portuguese water dog
> 29.	Airedale; Bouvier des Flandres
> 30.	Border terrier; Briard
> 31.	Welsh springer spaniel
> 32.	Manchester terrier
> 33.	Samoyed
> 34.	Field spaniel; Newfoundland; Australian terrier; American Staffordshire terrier; Gordon setter; Bearded collie
> 35.	American Eskimo dog*; Cairn terrier; Kerry blue terrier; Irish setter
> 36.	Norwegian elkhound
> 37.	Affenpinscher; Silky terrier Miniature pinscher; English setter; Pharaoh hound; Clumber spaniel
> 38.	Norwich terrier
> 39.	Dalmatian
> 40.	Soft-coated wheaten terrier; Bedlington terrier; Smooth-haired fox terrier
> 41.	Curly-coated retriever; Irish wolfhound
> 42.	Kuvasz; Australian shepard
> 43.	Saluki; Finnish spitz; Pointer
> 44.	Cavalier King Charles spaniel; German wirehaired pointer; Black-and-tan coonhound; American water spaniel
> 45.	Siberian husky; Bichon fries; English toy spaniel
> 46.	Tibetan spaniel; English foxhound; Otterhound; American foxhound; Greyhound; Harrier*; Parson Russell terrier*; Wirehaired pointing griffon
> 47.	West Highland white terrier; Havanese*; Scottish deerhound
> 48.	Boxer; Great Dane
> 49.	Dachshund; Staffordshire bull terrier; Shiba Inu*
> 50.	Malamute
> 51.	Whippet; Chinese shar-pei; Wirehaired fox terrier
> 52.	Rhodesian ridgeback
> 53.	Ibizan hound; Welsh terrier; Irish terrier
> 54.	Boston terrier; Akita
> 55.	Skye terrier
> 56.	Norfolk terrier; Sealyham terrier
> 57.	Pug
> 58.	French bulldog
> 59.	Brussels griffon; Maltese terrier
> 60.	Italian greyhound
> 61.	Chinese crested
> 62.	Dandie Dinmont terrier; Vendeen; Tibetan terrier; Japanese chin; Lakeland terrier
> 63.	Old English sheepdog
> 64.	Great Pyrenees
> 65.	Scottish terrier; Saint Bernard
> 66.	Bull terrier; Petite Basset Griffon; Vendeen*
> 67.	Chihuahua
> 68.	Lhasa apso
> 69.	Bullmastiff
> 70.	Shih Tzu
> 71.	Basset hound
> 72.	Mastiff; Beagle
> 73.	Pekingese
> 74.	Bloodhound
> 75.	Borzoi
> 76.	Chow chow
> 77.	Bulldog
> 78.	Basenji
> 79.	Afghan hound
> 
> For this family a border terrier would be a much better pet than a border collie.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Are dumber dogs nicer?
> 
> You might want to watch out posting stuff like this, I told someone once that Pomeranians weren't very bright and that person got pretty insane about it.
Click to expand...


Dumber dogs are harder to train, but they retain their training better and don't get very creative.  Dumber dogs tend to have reputations for biting but they tend to be less active and more mellow.


----------



## koshergrl

"Dumb" is relative anyway.....I like border collies a lot but I am not drawn to them the way I am to some of the "dumber" dogs. I like dogs with specialized intelligence, as well as over the top smarts. 
But the older I get the less impressed I am with so-called "intelligence" anyway...in people or in dogs.


----------



## Katzndogz

Sarah G said:


> Katzndogz said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sarah G said:
> 
> 
> 
> What did you do when he peed in your bed?  Buy a new mattress or sleep on that one.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I soaked it in Nature's Miracle and slept on the other side until it dried.  You can use Hydrogen Peroxide too.  My friend had a cat that objected to her doing homework when she was in law school.  He would drag her clothes out of the hamper and pee on them.  If the cat was REALLY mad, he'd claw her underwear to shreds.
> 
> Animals have ways of dealing with disobedient owners.  My dog gives "lectures".   She will get in your face and read you the riot act until you follow instructions.   She has a sitter while I'm at school, it took my dog only a few weeks to teach the sitter simple commands like "walk, water, cookie".   The sitter is now as obedient as a human can be.  My dog is the second most intelligent of all dog breeds, she's a poodle.  I have no patience in dog training, nor do I want a dog with the decision making ability of a ten year old child.
> 
> In this situation.  I really don't see a disobedient dog.  I see a poorly equipped owner with a lot of excuses on why she's poorly equipped.    Not all dogs are suitable for all owners.  A border collie is extremely intelligent and extremely active.   A dog less intelligent (but not as stupid as say, an Afghan) will be easier to train and not as apt as to think for themselves.
> 
> Here is a list of dog breeds ranked by intelligence.
> 
> 
> 1.	Border Collie
> 2.	Poodle
> 3.	German Shepherd
> 4.	Golden Retriever
> 5.	Doberman Pinscher
> 6.	Shetland Sheepdog
> 7.	Labrador Retriever
> 8.	Papillon
> 9.	Rottweiler
> 10.	Australian cattle dog
> 11.	Pembroke Welsh corgi
> 12.	Miniature schnauzer
> 13.	English springer spaniel
> 14.	Belgian Tervuren
> 15.	Schipperke Belgian sheepdog
> 16.	Collie Keeshond
> 17.	German short-haired pointer
> 18.	Flat-coated retriever; English cocker spaniel; Standard schnauzer
> 19.	Brittany spaniel
> 20.	Cocker spaniel; Nova Scotia duck tolling retriever*
> 21.	Weimaraner
> 22.	Belgian Malinois; Bernese Mountain dog
> 23.	Pomeranian
> 24.	Irish water spaniel
> 25.	Vizsla
> 26.	Cardigan Welsh corgi
> 27.	Chesapeake Bay retriever; Puli; Yorkshire terrier
> 28.	Giant schnauzer; Portuguese water dog
> 29.	Airedale; Bouvier des Flandres
> 30.	Border terrier; Briard
> 31.	Welsh springer spaniel
> 32.	Manchester terrier
> 33.	Samoyed
> 34.	Field spaniel; Newfoundland; Australian terrier; American Staffordshire terrier; Gordon setter; Bearded collie
> 35.	American Eskimo dog*; Cairn terrier; Kerry blue terrier; Irish setter
> 36.	Norwegian elkhound
> 37.	Affenpinscher; Silky terrier Miniature pinscher; English setter; Pharaoh hound; Clumber spaniel
> 38.	Norwich terrier
> 39.	Dalmatian
> 40.	Soft-coated wheaten terrier; Bedlington terrier; Smooth-haired fox terrier
> 41.	Curly-coated retriever; Irish wolfhound
> 42.	Kuvasz; Australian shepard
> 43.	Saluki; Finnish spitz; Pointer
> 44.	Cavalier King Charles spaniel; German wirehaired pointer; Black-and-tan coonhound; American water spaniel
> 45.	Siberian husky; Bichon fries; English toy spaniel
> 46.	Tibetan spaniel; English foxhound; Otterhound; American foxhound; Greyhound; Harrier*; Parson Russell terrier*; Wirehaired pointing griffon
> 47.	West Highland white terrier; Havanese*; Scottish deerhound
> 48.	Boxer; Great Dane
> 49.	Dachshund; Staffordshire bull terrier; Shiba Inu*
> 50.	Malamute
> 51.	Whippet; Chinese shar-pei; Wirehaired fox terrier
> 52.	Rhodesian ridgeback
> 53.	Ibizan hound; Welsh terrier; Irish terrier
> 54.	Boston terrier; Akita
> 55.	Skye terrier
> 56.	Norfolk terrier; Sealyham terrier
> 57.	Pug
> 58.	French bulldog
> 59.	Brussels griffon; Maltese terrier
> 60.	Italian greyhound
> 61.	Chinese crested
> 62.	Dandie Dinmont terrier; Vendeen; Tibetan terrier; Japanese chin; Lakeland terrier
> 63.	Old English sheepdog
> 64.	Great Pyrenees
> 65.	Scottish terrier; Saint Bernard
> 66.	Bull terrier; Petite Basset Griffon; Vendeen*
> 67.	Chihuahua
> 68.	Lhasa apso
> 69.	Bullmastiff
> 70.	Shih Tzu
> 71.	Basset hound
> 72.	Mastiff; Beagle
> 73.	Pekingese
> 74.	Bloodhound
> 75.	Borzoi
> 76.	Chow chow
> 77.	Bulldog
> 78.	Basenji
> 79.	Afghan hound
> 
> For this family a border terrier would be a much better pet than a border collie.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Are dumber dogs nicer?
> 
> You might want to watch out posting stuff like this, I told someone once that Pomeranians weren't very bright and that person got pretty insane about it.
Click to expand...

I have a friend with a Pomeranian.  They think he's brilliant.  I would not dare to tell them differently.  If they want to find out that Poms are only a 23, it's up to them.


----------



## Katzndogz

gallantwarrior said:


> Katzndogz said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> gallantwarrior said:
> 
> 
> 
> You can't claim to be a cat person and not know that they are far more likely than dogs to employ inappropriate urination to express thei displeasure.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> When I was young, single and had a cat, he gave me a 10pm curfew.   If I came home after ten, he peed in my shoes.  If he couldn't get a shoe, he'd pee in the bed.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I've had cats who didn't approve of my overnight "guests".  Imagine how they felt when donning their clothes after breakfast, only to find out that the damned cat decided they were unsuitable?
Click to expand...


The cat was right wasn't it?


----------



## mememe

koshergrl said:


> "Dumb" is relative anyway......



Very true.

How do WE determine the intelligence of a dog, by what criteria?

Kaukaz (Caucasian shepherd's dog) as well as Anatolians were bred to assess situations and act upon their assessment without a human telling them what to do. Is it smart or is it dumb?

I had Anatolian. It was like no other breed. She knew what you wanted her to do, but once she decided something or someone is a danger to her family, you can hang yourself trying to call her back -- she would go and deal with the "danger" first and then obey your order.

Once we called in a dog behaviourist (stupid bitch!). The woman was telling us that breeds don't matter, that all dogs suppose to be essentially the same, etc. and started by coming up to my dog with treats in her hand. My pup did not touch the treat, but became very suspicious. The woman decided the dog just did not like an offering and asked me to go fetch some biscuits. As soon as I walked out of the room, our guest got up to follow me. That was the last straw as far as my dog was concerned: my puppy stood between myself and a stranger and showed all her teeth. The woman became hysterical, but no matter how I tried to get in front of the dog, the dog would push me to the side and stand between me and the "danger". It took my husband to finally wrestle the dog out so the behaviourist can escape...

Was it smart or was it dumb on a part of a dog, I don't know. But since then we all felt PROTECTED.


----------



## koshergrl

I don't allow my dogs to push me out of the way when it comes to that sort of thing. I am the boss, I go first, they don't call the shots. If I say a person is okay, then they better respect that.

I took Klaus in hand by making him walk behind me when we're walking. He doesn't like it, he has always wanted to blaze the trail and meet everyone first...but after getting yanked on my butt (and dragged) by him hitting the end of the leash harder than I could control, I decided I  needed to assert myself as the leader.

I didn't do it in any overt way..I just always make him walk behind me, and when he is excited about someone I make him sit or lay down...and it works. He takes his cues from me, not the other way around.

Cuz he's a dog. I love him and I trust him but I don't let him disregard me.


----------



## mememe

koshergrl said:


> I don't allow my dogs to push me out of the way when it comes to that sort of thing. I am the boss, .



That's exactly what that behaviourist said before getting acquainted with the breed that was designed for INDEPENDENT thinking and INDEPENDENT decision making.

Get yourself Anatolian or Caucasian and then come back with your experience. Right now all your posturing is based on your ignorance.


----------



## koshergrl

Fuck off, bitch. You have a dangerous dog and you're proud that you couldn't control it as a pup. You make all dog owners look bad.


----------



## mememe

koshergrl said:


> Fuck off, bitch. .



Bitch is looking at you in your mirror. 

It's not a dog that is dangerous, it's ***** like you who walk up to an animal expecting to be taken for a "boss" just because you walk on two legs.


----------



## koshergrl

You're an idiot. I expect to be the boss because I am the boss.

I have no respect or time for nitwits who tee hee about the fact that they can't control their dog when it's threatening someone, and think it's cute that they had to get a man to physically restrain a dog they can't control.

I have a saint now. I've had Great Pyrenees, G. Shepherds, poodles, JRT, pits, hounds, cattle dogs of different types. And I can tell you without reservation or any doubt..you're a fucking idiot who shouldn't have a 150 lb dog.


----------



## mememe

koshergrl said:


> You're an idiot. I expect to be the boss because I am the boss.



It's you who are an idiot. Caucasians are not poodles or border collies who were bred to follow commands and if they do not work they get board. Which what is happening to the dog at the centre of the discussion.

Caucasians and Anatolians were bred to use their own discretion. And when you come up to such a dog with your puffed up by ignorance ego EXPECTING an animal to be what it is not -- you will have your ass handed to you on a plate; and rightly so. You have to "speak" to these dogs "their language" which is giving them freedom to fulfil their breed characteristics.

And since you do not comprehend this simple thing, the only suggestion I can give you is to walk up to a lion and tell him you are hiss boss.


----------

