# CAIR Launches Website Exposing America's 'Islamophobia Network'



## Figaro

The Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR) today launched Islamophobia.org, the latest element in the Muslim civil rights organization's work to monitor and challenge the growing anti-Muslim bigotry in American society.

CAIR's Islamophobia.org site presents detailed profiles of a number of individuals and institutions involved in the American Islamophobia network.

You may follow the link to get rid of your Islamophobia
Islamophobia is closed-minded prejudice against or hatred of Islam and Muslims. - Islamophobia


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## Dogmaphobe

It looks like an insidious hit list to me.

 Targeting human rights advocates like Ayaan Hirsi Ali just reinforces the threats on her life Islamists have already made.  Isn't the Fatwa calling for her death good enough for them?


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## Coyote

Figaro said:


> The Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR) today launched Islamophobia.org, the latest element in the Muslim civil rights organization's work to monitor and challenge the growing anti-Muslim bigotry in American society.
> 
> CAIR's Islamophobia.org site presents detailed profiles of a number of individuals and institutions involved in the American Islamophobia network.
> 
> You may follow the link to get rid of your Islamophobia
> Islamophobia is closed-minded prejudice against or hatred of Islam and Muslims. - Islamophobia




Good for CAIR.  Southern Policy Law Center has a list of anti-Muslim hate groups.  Quite a bit of overlap.  It's about time folks started challenging these charlatans in the open.  Jews and Blacks are well ahead of the curve in exposing anti-semites and racists masquerading as "legitimately concerned" citizens and patriots.

http://www.splcenter.org/node/3502/activegroups


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## jwoodie

Talk to most "moderate" Muslims and you will find that they have been brainwashed against Jews and are unwilling to condemn terrorist murder of innocent civilians.


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## Uncensored2008

Figaro said:


> The Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR) today launched Islamophobia.org, the latest element in the Muslim civil rights organization's work to monitor and challenge the growing anti-Muslim bigotry in American society.
> 
> CAIR's Islamophobia.org site presents detailed profiles of a number of individuals and institutions involved in the American Islamophobia network.
> 
> You may follow the link to get rid of your Islamophobia
> Islamophobia is closed-minded prejudice against or hatred of Islam and Muslims. - Islamophobia




CAIR celebrated the launch by beheading an American Journalist....


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## Uncensored2008

Coyote said:


> Good for CAIR.  Southern Policy Law Center has a list of anti-Muslim hate groups.  Quite a bit of overlap.  It's about time folks started challenging these charlatans in the open.  Jews and Blacks are well ahead of the curve in exposing anti-semites and racists masquerading as "legitimately concerned" citizens and patriots.
> 
> http://www.splcenter.org/node/3502/activegroups



Does the CAIR site have a link for suicide bomb volunteers?  It makes sense that the Muzzie Beasts would jump in bed with the SPLC Klan. A racist hate group like SPLC is perfect for a religion of violence and oppression like Islam.


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## Dogmaphobe

jwoodie said:


> Talk to most "moderate" Muslims and you will find that they have been brainwashed against Jews and are unwilling to condemn terrorist murder of innocent civilians.



The word "moderate" is always so completely relative when talking about Muslims.  What is moderate for a Muslim is not any sort of true moderate position by western standards, and so should be taken with a grain of salt.

Considering that you have C.A.I.R. providing a hit list of people, some of whom with Fatwas over their head calling for their death, to have any of these useful idiots actually applauding such publication is beyond the pale. This organization has direct ties to Hamas, and is in the business of establishing their totalitarian fascism as inviolate. It is not a "phobia" to resist totalitarianism, but merely the rational response by any intelligent person with even the slightest regard for Western values.


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## Coyote

Uncensored2008 said:


> Figaro said:
> 
> 
> 
> The Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR) today launched Islamophobia.org, the latest element in the Muslim civil rights organization's work to monitor and challenge the growing anti-Muslim bigotry in American society.
> 
> CAIR's Islamophobia.org site presents detailed profiles of a number of individuals and institutions involved in the American Islamophobia network.
> 
> You may follow the link to get rid of your Islamophobia
> Islamophobia is closed-minded prejudice against or hatred of Islam and Muslims. - Islamophobia
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CAIR celebrated the launch by beheading an American Journalist....
Click to expand...


Link?


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## Coyote

Hate groups and sites should be challenged exposed, regardless of their target population.

SPLC posts many of those same individuals on their site, along with what they've said and done to promote hatred.  They do the same with racists and anti-semites such as David Duke, Michael Savage, Kevin MacDonald etc. etc.  I don't think anyone regards those as "hit lists".  The ADL, for example,  maintains a watch on anti-semitism incidents and individuals promoting anti-semitism and related conspiracy theory crap.  CAIR is doing nothing different than what these other groups do - lifting stones and exposing what lies underneath.


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## Uncensored2008

Coyote said:


> Link?



Of pork sausage? Sounds good...







MMMMMmmm pork


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## Uncensored2008

Coyote said:


> Hate groups and sites should be challenged exposed, regardless of their target population.



Islam is a hate group of 1.2 billion members. Yet you seek to cover for it.



> SPLC posts many of those same individuals on their site, along with what they've said and done to promote hatred.  They do the same with racists and anti-semites such as David Duke, Michael Savage, Kevin MacDonald etc. etc.  I don't think anyone regards those as "hit lists".  The ADL, for example,  maintains a watch on anti-semitism incidents and individuals promoting anti-semitism and related conspiracy theory crap.  CAIR is doing nothing different than what these other groups do - lifting stones and exposing what lies underneath.



The SPLC is a hate group - no denying it. The SPLC may have a different target than the KKK, specifically Christians, Libertarians, Republicans, and anyone opposing the Obama agenda; but the methods used by the SPLC are virtually identical. The old KKK burned a cross on your lawn, the new KKK runs a hate campaign in the NY Times and lynches you on MSNBC.

So it makes perfect sense for those who brutally cut the heads off of people on YouTube to join forces with this anti-Christian hate group.


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## Coyote

The SPLC's methods are virtually identical to the KKK?


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## Dogmaphobe

Coyote said:


> Hate groups and sites should be challenged exposed,.



and when they are, those who wish to kill them for it are safe in the knowledge they will have your full support.

Just imagine of a white supremacist group was similarly brazen in calling for the murder of those who confronted them?. Muslim supremacism gets your full support, however.


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## Coyote

Trying to figure out where on that CAIR site someone is calling for murder


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## Dogmaphobe

Coyote said:


> Trying to figure out where on that CAIR site someone is calling for murder



You know full well that many on their hit list have had fatwas issued for their death.

Are you an Islamist?


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## Coyote

Again...trying to figure out where on that CAIR site someone is calling for murder.  It sounds like you are trying to justify keeping anti-Muslim hate groups cloaked in the respectability.


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## Dogmaphobe

Coyote said:


> Again...trying to figure out where on that CAIR site someone is calling for murder.  It sounds like you are trying to justify keeping anti-Muslim hate groups cloaked in the respectability.




Yeah, I figured you would be too dishonest to come right out and say who you are.


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## Mojo2

Coyote said:


> The SPLC's methods are virtually identical to the KKK?



They are scandalous.

Why are you guys always the last to know the shit everyone else has known _forever_?

Maybe you are also behind the curve when it comes to recognizing the threat of Islam to America.

The Snake.


If you loved America you would be more discerning about what you will allow to take place inside of her.

Do you WANT America to be conquered by the soldiers of Allah?


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## Mojo2

Coyote said:


> Again...trying to figure out where on that CAIR site someone is calling for murder.  It sounds like you are trying to justify keeping anti-Muslim hate groups cloaked in the respectability.



CAIR is an unindicted co-conspirator with the Muslim Brotherhood in the Holy Lands case.

What does that say to you?

Okay, you are speechless, I see.

So, read this and tell us what you think.
*
An Explanatory Memorandum On the General Strategic Goal for the Group In North America[edit]*

See also: Muslim Brotherhood Influence Operations

An Explanatory Memorandum On the General Strategic Goal for the Group In North America[32] is a document seized by the government that was used in the 2008 United States v. Holy Land Foundation for Relief and Development case.[33]

The verdict found the Holy Land Foundation for Relief and Development guilty of laundering money to Hamas. According to the Anti-Defamation League, some observers have suggested that this document *"identifies a conspiracy by the Muslim Brotherhood to convert the United States to an Islamic nation."*[34]

The memorandum was written in 1991 by Mohamed Akram, a senior Hamas leader in the U.S., a member of the Board of Directors for the Muslim Brotherhood in North America (also known as the Ikhwan) and one of many unindicted co-conspirators in the HLF trial. He asked them to read it for approval as an update and restatement of the plan they had adopted in 1987.[35]

The memorandum was cited by the September 2010 Center for Security Policy (CSP) report, "Shariah: The Threat to America" and endorsed by several members of Congress.[36]

Holy Land Foundation for Relief and Development - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia


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## Coyote

Dogmaphobe said:


> Just imagine of a white supremacist group was similarly brazen in calling for the murder of those who confronted them?. Muslim supremacism gets your full support, however.



Whatever dishonest distortions float your boat dude.

However, it's not unheard of - here's a case where a white supremacist was


Dogmaphobe said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> Again...trying to figure out where on that CAIR site someone is calling for murder.  It sounds like you are trying to justify keeping anti-Muslim hate groups cloaked in the respectability.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, I figured you would be too dishonest to come right out and say who you are.
Click to expand...



Well if I came right out and said it I wouldn't be a proper "stealth Islamist Jihadi" now would I?

Now....if you can show me where CAIR is calling for the murder of the bigots listed on its hate site? (the same bigots SPLC has) - otherwise I'll just assume you support double standards when it comes to hate groups


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## Coyote

Mojo2 said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> Again...trying to figure out where on that CAIR site someone is calling for murder.  It sounds like you are trying to justify keeping anti-Muslim hate groups cloaked in the respectability.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CAIR is an unindicted co-conspirator with the Muslim Brotherhood in the Holy Lands case.
> 
> What does that say?
Click to expand...


Uh...it says "unindicted" dude.

Which sounds like no evidence to support the claim and get an indictment.

Now can you show me where they are calling for the murder of the hate groups listed on their site?


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## Dogmaphobe

Mojo2 said:


> If you loved America you would be more discerning about what you will allow to take place inside of her.
> 
> Do you WANT America to be conquered by the soldiers of Allah?



Coyote might not even be an American, and your answer would be yes. .

Considering all the anti-Hindu, Anti Jewish and anti-Christian attitudes this one offers coupled with knee-jerk defense of anything Islamic, the subversive agenda seems pretty clear.


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## Coyote

Mojo2 said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> The SPLC's methods are virtually identical to the KKK?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> They are scandalous.
> 
> Why are you guys always the last to know the shit everyone else has known _forever_?
> 
> Maybe you are also behind the curve when it comes to recognizing the threat of Islam to America.
> 
> The Snake.
> 
> 
> If you loved America you would be more discerning about what you will allow to take place inside of her.
> 
> Do you WANT America to be conquered by the soldiers of Allah?
Click to expand...


So exposing hate groups are scandalous?  You think David Duke and the KKK are just another pop band or something?


----------



## Coyote

Dogmaphobe said:


> Mojo2 said:
> 
> 
> 
> If you loved America you would be more discerning about what you will allow to take place inside of her.
> 
> Do you WANT America to be conquered by the soldiers of Allah?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote might not even be an American, and your answer would be yes. .
> 
> Considering all the anti-Hindu, Anti Jewish and anti-Christian attitudes this one offers coupled with knee-jerk defense of anything Islamic, the subversive agenda seems pretty clear.
Click to expand...


Oh cool.  Well,, given that I have so many anti-attitudes, why don't you post a link to them?  xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Now let's talk about your desire to protect hate groups.  I think they should be exposed to the sunlight and groups like the SPLC do a great job of it.  Their critics tend to be...well...hate group supporters.  Imagine that!


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## Dogmaphobe

Coyote said:


> Dogmaphobe said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mojo2 said:
> 
> 
> 
> If you loved America you would be more discerning about what you will allow to take place inside of her.
> 
> Do you WANT America to be conquered by the soldiers of Allah?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote might not even be an American, and your answer would be yes. .
> 
> Considering all the anti-Hindu, Anti Jewish and anti-Christian attitudes this one offers coupled with knee-jerk defense of anything Islamic, the subversive agenda seems pretty clear.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Oh cool.  Well,, given that I have so many anti-attitudes, why don't you post a link to them?  (I know, don't hold my breath - we've been through this before and and you're like a fart in the wind - smelly,disapates rapidly and produces little content).
> 
> Now let's talk about your desire to protect hate groups.  I think they should be exposed to the sunlight and groups like the SPLC do a great job of it.  Their critics tend to be...well...hate group supporters.  Imagine that!
Click to expand...


So, tell me, Coyote --  Is lying to the infidel an actual requirement for you and your subversive  ilk, or are you allowed to tell the truth to us on occasion?


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## Coyote

Dogmaphobe said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dogmaphobe said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mojo2 said:
> 
> 
> 
> If you loved America you would be more discerning about what you will allow to take place inside of her.
> 
> Do you WANT America to be conquered by the soldiers of Allah?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote might not even be an American, and your answer would be yes. .
> 
> Considering all the anti-Hindu, Anti Jewish and anti-Christian attitudes this one offers coupled with knee-jerk defense of anything Islamic, the subversive agenda seems pretty clear.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Oh cool.  Well,, given that I have so many anti-attitudes, why don't you post a link to them?  (I know, don't hold my breath - we've been through this before and and you're like a fart in the wind - smelly,disapates rapidly and produces little content).
> 
> Now let's talk about your desire to protect hate groups.  I think they should be exposed to the sunlight and groups like the SPLC do a great job of it.  Their critics tend to be...well...hate group supporters.  Imagine that!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> So, tell me, Coyote --  Is lying to the infidel an actual requirement for you and your subversive  ilk, or are you allowed to tell the truth to us on occasion?
Click to expand...


xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

I presume that once again, you can't supply evidence to support your claims (or will you call it "jumping through hoops").

Where has the CAIR site list of bigots called for murder in any manner?

Why do you seem to feel some Hate Sites and Hate Mongers are worthy of protection from scrutiny while others should be condemned?


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## Rikurzhen

Coyote said:


> Figaro said:
> 
> 
> 
> The Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR) today launched Islamophobia.org, the latest element in the Muslim civil rights organization's work to monitor and challenge the growing anti-Muslim bigotry in American society.
> 
> CAIR's Islamophobia.org site presents detailed profiles of a number of individuals and institutions involved in the American Islamophobia network.
> 
> You may follow the link to get rid of your Islamophobia
> Islamophobia is closed-minded prejudice against or hatred of Islam and Muslims. - Islamophobia
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Good for CAIR.  Southern Policy Law Center has a list of anti-Muslim hate groups.  Quite a bit of overlap.  It's about time folks started challenging these charlatans in the open.  Jews and Blacks are well ahead of the curve in exposing anti-semites and racists masquerading as "legitimately concerned" citizens and patriots.
> 
> http://www.splcenter.org/node/3502/activegroups
Click to expand...


Why are you linking to a hate group?


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## Coyote

Prove it's a hate group.


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## Rikurzhen

Coyote said:


> Prove it's a hate group.



The Virginia man who pleaded guilty to an act of armed terrorism and assault with intent to kill in last year's shooting attack at the conservative Family Research Council said he got the idea from the liberal-leaning Southern Poverty Law Center's "hate map."​


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## Coyote

Rikurzhen said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> Prove it's a hate group.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Virginia man who pleaded guilty to an act of armed terrorism and assault with intent to kill in last year's shooting attack at the conservative Family Research Council said he got the idea from the liberal-leaning Southern Poverty Law Center's "hate map."​
Click to expand...


Umh...did you READ your source?  It's not saying SPLC is a "hate group" - quite the opposite.  It's saying that this nut used their list of hate groups to find a victim.


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## Uncensored2008

Coyote said:


> The SPLC's methods are virtually identical to the KKK?



Yes, they are. Fear and intimidation are tools of both of these hate groups. If you don't know this, you are ignorant, though more likely it's just dishonesty.

That you happen to support the goals of one of the hate groups does not alter reality.


----------



## Rikurzhen

Coyote said:


> Rikurzhen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> Prove it's a hate group.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Virginia man who pleaded guilty to an act of armed terrorism and assault with intent to kill in last year's shooting attack at the conservative Family Research Council said he got the idea from the liberal-leaning Southern Poverty Law Center's "hate map."​
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Umh...did you READ your source?  It's not saying SPLC is a "hate group" - quite the opposite.  It's saying that this nut used their list of hate groups to find a victim.
Click to expand...


I'm saying the SPLC is a hate group, you know, just like SPLC decides that it wants to label the Family Research Council as a hate group, or the Center for Immigration Reform as a hate group, or pick-up artists who like to have sex with women as sufficient to get on the SPLC's list of haters:

Take note, America: *Having consensual sex* (Roosh is not a rapist, but a seducer*) with someone you don't actually like and then *never calling her/him again will land you in a reputation-ruining** SPLC report.* ​In my experience, only idiots refer to the SPLC as some form of neutral organization:

Still, there may soon come a day when the SPLC’s donation-generating machine, powered by Dees’s mastery of the use of “hate” to coax dollars from the highly educated and the highly gullible, finally breaks down. That is why, according to Cohen, the SPLC has no intention of soon spending down much of that $256 million in stockpiled assets that has* earned the center an “F” rating from CharityWatch.* “We’ve tried to raise a substantial endowment, because our fundraising is on a downward trend,” Cohen told me. “Those 1960s liberals—they’re getting older, and the post office is dying. We’re likely to be out of the fundraising business within 10 years.” What the SPLC wants to do is to ensure that “hate” is forever.​


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## Uncensored2008

Dogmaphobe said:


> You know full well that many on their hit list have had fatwas issued for their death.
> 
> Are you an Islamist?



After 9-11, all leftists became Islamists.


----------



## westwall

Uncensored2008 said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hate groups and sites should be challenged exposed, regardless of their target population.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Islam is a hate group of 1.2 billion members. Yet you seek to cover for it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SPLC posts many of those same individuals on their site, along with what they've said and done to promote hatred.  They do the same with racists and anti-semites such as David Duke, Michael Savage, Kevin MacDonald etc. etc.  I don't think anyone regards those as "hit lists".  The ADL, for example,  maintains a watch on anti-semitism incidents and individuals promoting anti-semitism and related conspiracy theory crap.  CAIR is doing nothing different than what these other groups do - lifting stones and exposing what lies underneath.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The SPLC is a hate group - no denying it. The SPLC may have a different target than the KKK, specifically Christians, Libertarians, Republicans, and anyone opposing the Obama agenda; but the methods used by the SPLC are virtually identical. The old KKK burned a cross on your lawn, the new KKK runs a hate campaign in the NY Times and lynches you on MSNBC.
> 
> So it makes perfect sense for those who brutally cut the heads off of people on YouTube to join forces with this anti-Christian hate group.
Click to expand...







No, Islam is a religion of 1.2 billion people.  The vast majority don't hold to violent ideals.  However, those that do, STILL number over 250 MILLION.  That should give one pause.  And I think CAIR itself is digging itself a hole.  I would like to see their Islamophobe lists countered by lists of known Islamic terrorist organizations that one should not interact with.

They are too one sided for me.


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## Uncensored2008

westwall said:


> No, Islam is a religion of 1.2 billion people.  The vast majority don't hold to violent ideals.  However, those that do, STILL number over 250 MILLION.  That should give one pause.  And I think CAIR itself is digging itself a hole.  I would like to see their Islamophobe lists countered by lists of known Islamic terrorist organizations that one should not interact with.
> 
> They are too one sided for me.



I disagree. 

I don't see a Martin Luther among the Muslims calling for reform and renouncing the violence of the Koran and Hadiths. We have 1.2 billion who follow a creed that demands conversion by the sword and violent subjugation of all people.  250 million actively engage in enforcing these ideas. Those who stand in silent acquiescence are not blameless.


----------



## Coyote

westwall said:


> Uncensored2008 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hate groups and sites should be challenged exposed, regardless of their target population.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Islam is a hate group of 1.2 billion members. Yet you seek to cover for it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SPLC posts many of those same individuals on their site, along with what they've said and done to promote hatred.  They do the same with racists and anti-semites such as David Duke, Michael Savage, Kevin MacDonald etc. etc.  I don't think anyone regards those as "hit lists".  The ADL, for example,  maintains a watch on anti-semitism incidents and individuals promoting anti-semitism and related conspiracy theory crap.  CAIR is doing nothing different than what these other groups do - lifting stones and exposing what lies underneath.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The SPLC is a hate group - no denying it. The SPLC may have a different target than the KKK, specifically Christians, Libertarians, Republicans, and anyone opposing the Obama agenda; but the methods used by the SPLC are virtually identical. The old KKK burned a cross on your lawn, the new KKK runs a hate campaign in the NY Times and lynches you on MSNBC.
> 
> So it makes perfect sense for those who brutally cut the heads off of people on YouTube to join forces with this anti-Christian hate group.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No, Islam is a religion of 1.2 billion people.  The vast majority don't hold to violent ideals.  However, those that do, STILL number over 250 MILLION.  That should give one pause.  And I think CAIR itself is digging itself a hole.  I would like to see their Islamophobe lists countered by lists of known Islamic terrorist organizations that one should not interact with.
> 
> *They are too one sided for me.*
Click to expand...


They are no different than the ADL, for example, who provide lists of and information on anti-semitic groups or NAACP who provide information on racist groups.  Neither provides info on their extremists.

It wouldn't hurt to provide lists of dangerous groups - however, if their aim is to publically expose bigotry and I really think it's about time.  That's been done for a long time now for racists and anti-semites.  There is a lot of disinformation and conspiracy theory crap that should be countered.


----------



## westwall

Coyote said:


> westwall said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Uncensored2008 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hate groups and sites should be challenged exposed, regardless of their target population.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Islam is a hate group of 1.2 billion members. Yet you seek to cover for it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SPLC posts many of those same individuals on their site, along with what they've said and done to promote hatred.  They do the same with racists and anti-semites such as David Duke, Michael Savage, Kevin MacDonald etc. etc.  I don't think anyone regards those as "hit lists".  The ADL, for example,  maintains a watch on anti-semitism incidents and individuals promoting anti-semitism and related conspiracy theory crap.  CAIR is doing nothing different than what these other groups do - lifting stones and exposing what lies underneath.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The SPLC is a hate group - no denying it. The SPLC may have a different target than the KKK, specifically Christians, Libertarians, Republicans, and anyone opposing the Obama agenda; but the methods used by the SPLC are virtually identical. The old KKK burned a cross on your lawn, the new KKK runs a hate campaign in the NY Times and lynches you on MSNBC.
> 
> So it makes perfect sense for those who brutally cut the heads off of people on YouTube to join forces with this anti-Christian hate group.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No, Islam is a religion of 1.2 billion people.  The vast majority don't hold to violent ideals.  However, those that do, STILL number over 250 MILLION.  That should give one pause.  And I think CAIR itself is digging itself a hole.  I would like to see their Islamophobe lists countered by lists of known Islamic terrorist organizations that one should not interact with.
> 
> *They are too one sided for me.*
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> They are no different than the ADL, for example, who provide lists of and information on anti-semitic groups or NAACP who provide information on racist groups.  Neither provides info on their extremists.
> 
> It wouldn't hurt to provide lists of dangerous groups - however, if their aim is to publically expose bigotry and I really think it's about time.  That's been done for a long time now for racists and anti-semites.  There is a lot of disinformation and conspiracy theory crap that should be countered.
Click to expand...






I agree, and that is a failing with ANY group like this.  If you want to be taken seriously by people like me you need to expose those who are extremists on YOUR side and, denounce them.


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## Dogmaphobe

Coyote said:


> They are no different than the ADL, for example, .



Bullshit .  For starters, the ADL protects an ethnic minority from persecution.  C.A.I.R. is all about enforcing the dictates of a totalitarian political ideology.

Secondly, the ADL does not provide hit lists of people who have a death threat over their heads from their fellow Jews.
 I shouldn't even have to mention that fact that the adl does not funnel money to known genocidal terrorist organizations.


Are you in the Muslim Brotherhood?


----------



## westwall

Uncensored2008 said:


> westwall said:
> 
> 
> 
> No, Islam is a religion of 1.2 billion people.  The vast majority don't hold to violent ideals.  However, those that do, STILL number over 250 MILLION.  That should give one pause.  And I think CAIR itself is digging itself a hole.  I would like to see their Islamophobe lists countered by lists of known Islamic terrorist organizations that one should not interact with.
> 
> They are too one sided for me.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I disagree.
> 
> I don't see a Martin Luther among the Muslims calling for reform and renouncing the violence of the Koran and Hadiths. We have 1.2 billion who follow a creed that demands conversion by the sword and violent subjugation of all people.  250 million actively engage in enforcing these ideas. Those who stand in silent acquiescence are not blameless.
Click to expand...





I agree they are not blameless, but they are the equivalent of the Germans who remained passive while the Nazis took over.  They can see it happening, they just can't believe it's their next door neighbor.  That needs to change.


----------



## Dogmaphobe

westwall said:


> I agree they are not blameless, but they are the equivalent of the Germans who remained passive while the Nazis took over.  They can see it happening, they just can't believe it's their next door neighbor.  That needs to change.



It's a little trickier than that, because even as 250 million Muslims hold violent views, a much greater number agrees with the totalitarian agenda, if falling short of advocating violence to get there, so it is really  less a mater of simply remaining passive and being unaware, and more a matter of sharing the same sets of assumptions as to how the world should be.

.


----------



## Rikurzhen

westwall said:


> No, Islam is a religion of 1.2 billion people. * The vast majority don't hold to violent ideals*.



EVERY single school of Islamic Jurisprudence holds that a man who renounces Islam should be put to death. There are no factions within Islam which oppose this principle. Putting people to death because they leave Islam is a violent ideal.

The parallel to Nazism is apt. There were Nazis who did bad things and then there were ordinary everyday Nazis who believed deeply but weren't instrumental in the party or actions in furtherance of the party, the everyday moderate Nazis.


----------



## Mojo2

Coyote said:


> Rikurzhen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> Prove it's a hate group.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Virginia man who pleaded guilty to an act of armed terrorism and assault with intent to kill in last year's shooting attack at the conservative Family Research Council said he got the idea from the liberal-leaning Southern Poverty Law Center's "hate map."​
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Umh...did you READ your source?  It's not saying SPLC is a "hate group" - quite the opposite.  It's saying that this nut used their list of hate groups to find a victim.
Click to expand...




Uncensored2008 said:


> Dogmaphobe said:
> 
> 
> 
> You know full well that many on their hit list have had fatwas issued for their death.
> 
> Are you an Islamist?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> After 9-11, all leftists became Islamists.
Click to expand...


Or Dhimmis.

You should have seen the shock from one Muslim poster in the early 2000's when I introduced that word to our board.

It was electric.

Denials. Heated denials.

We all knew he was not supposed to discuss this with infidels and he prolly didn't think we'd actually read the internet.

Pfft.


----------



## westwall

Dogmaphobe said:


> westwall said:
> 
> 
> 
> I agree they are not blameless, but they are the equivalent of the Germans who remained passive while the Nazis took over.  They can see it happening, they just can't believe it's their next door neighbor.  That needs to change.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's a little trickier than that, because even as 250 million Muslims hold violent views, a much greater number agrees with the totalitarian agenda, if falling short of advocating violence to get there, so it is really  less a mater of simply remaining passive and being unaware, and more a matter of sharing the same sets of assumptions as to how the world should be.
> 
> .
Click to expand...






But how much of that is based on fear?  Face it, if you go off the reservation, there are plenty of Islamists who will happily cut your head off.  I feel that a great majority of the people who remain quiet do so for that very reason.


----------



## Coyote

Rikurzhen said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Rikurzhen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> Prove it's a hate group.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Virginia man who pleaded guilty to an act of armed terrorism and assault with intent to kill in last year's shooting attack at the conservative Family Research Council said he got the idea from the liberal-leaning Southern Poverty Law Center's "hate map."​
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Umh...did you READ your source?  It's not saying SPLC is a "hate group" - quite the opposite.  It's saying that this nut used their list of hate groups to find a victim.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I'm saying the SPLC is a hate group, you know, just like SPLC decides that it wants to label the Family Research Council as a hate group, or the Center for Immigration Reform as a hate group, or pick-up artists who like to have sex with women as sufficient to get on the SPLC's list of haters:
> 
> Take note, America: *Having consensual sex* (Roosh is not a rapist, but a seducer*) with someone you don't actually like and then *never calling her/him again will land you in a reputation-ruining** SPLC report.*​
Click to expand...

​The SPLC applies pretty good criteria as to what constitutes a hate group.  Do you consider the KKK a hate group?  I don't know about the Misogyny report - will need to look at that more closely.  But most of the list of hate groups - I agree with their placement on the list.

​


> In my experience, only idiots refer to the SPLC as some form of neutral organization:
> 
> Still, there may soon come a day when the SPLC’s donation-generating machine, powered by Dees’s mastery of the use of “hate” to coax dollars from the highly educated and the highly gullible, finally breaks down. That is why, according to Cohen, the SPLC has no intention of soon spending down much of that $256 million in stockpiled assets that has* earned the center an “F” rating from CharityWatch.* “We’ve tried to raise a substantial endowment, because our fundraising is on a downward trend,” Cohen told me. “Those 1960s liberals—they’re getting older, and the post office is dying. We’re likely to be out of the fundraising business within 10 years.” What the SPLC wants to do is to ensure that “hate” is forever.​



I never said they are "neutral" - I don't think any one is, including The Weekly Standard. I do notice a lot of the criticism seems to come from the Right.

CharityWatch requires a subscription to see it's ratings - so, I can't verify the claim made (and the article provides no link to sources).  It seems most of the ratings are pretty good but where they are criticized (ie rec'd a "failed screening" is fiscal - in their "reserve ratio" .

I also found these:

Charity Navigator Rating - Southern Poverty Law Center
Southern Poverty Law Center - SourceWatch

Southern Poverty Law Center SeriousGivers.org SGO 
According to this source's 2014 report:

CharityNavigator.org rates this charity “3-Stars” (Good).
CharityWatch.org rates this charity.  has not rated this charity.
The charity’s five SeriousGivers ratios show:
4 “green” (acceptable),
0 “yellow” (caution, discuss and obtain explanation) and
1 “red” (failed screening).

Southern Poverty Law Center

It's also pretty easy to look any of the groups listed, search out their statements and stances and decide for yourself whether or not they meet the criteria for hate groups.  I think this definition is a good one and many of those Anti-Muslim groups more than meet it.

Hate Groups
_A *hate group* is an organized *group* or movement that advocates and practices hatred, hostility, or violence towards members of a race, ethnicity, religion, gender, gender identity, sexual orientation or any other designated sector of society._


----------



## Rikurzhen

westwall said:


> But how much of that is based on fear?  Face it, if you go off the reservation, there are plenty of Islamists who will happily cut your head off.  I feel that a great majority of the people who remain quiet do so for that very reason.



Here's what I suspect you're doing. You;'re taking a model of intimidation which has played out in other situations and applying it to Islam. This is like Liberals seeing how different sects of Christianity act, where people profess a faith and it informs their private spiritual life and then they apply this model to Islam, as though Islam was strictly a private affair to guide one's spiritual life.

Those models are both faulty. Moderate Muslims believe in the VERY SAME things as extremist Muslims, it's only extremist who get off their duff and implement what they believe. Being a true blue Nazi believer but not actually taking to the street to round up Jews doesn't make a moderate Nazi an angel.


----------



## Coyote

Uncensored2008 said:


> westwall said:
> 
> 
> 
> No, Islam is a religion of 1.2 billion people.  The vast majority don't hold to violent ideals.  However, those that do, STILL number over 250 MILLION.  That should give one pause.  And I think CAIR itself is digging itself a hole.  I would like to see their Islamophobe lists countered by lists of known Islamic terrorist organizations that one should not interact with.
> 
> They are too one sided for me.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I disagree.
> 
> I don't see a Martin Luther among the Muslims calling for reform and renouncing the violence of the Koran and Hadiths. We have 1.2 billion who follow a creed that demands conversion by the sword and violent subjugation of all people.  250 million actively engage in enforcing these ideas. Those who stand in silent acquiescence are not blameless.
Click to expand...



mmmh....Martin Luther was responsible for a shit load of violence and blood thread wasn't he?  Including centuries of religious war?  He was also a horrible anti-semite.  I don't think we need a Martin Luther.


----------



## Coyote

Dogmaphobe said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> They are no different than the ADL, for example, .
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Bullshit .  For starters, the ADL protects an ethnic minority from persecution.  *C.A.I.R. is all about enforcing the dictates of a totalitarian political ideology.*
Click to expand...


Really now?



> Secondly, the ADL *does not provide hit lists of people who have a death threat over their heads* from their fellow Jews.
> I shouldn't even have to mention that fact that the adl does not funnel money to known genocidal terrorist organizations.



Neither does CAIR.  They simply provide a list of hate sites, groups, and individuals who have promoted bigotry.



> Are you in the Muslim Brotherhood?



No.  I'm stealth Islamist Jihadi.  If you are going to invent labels, please try to keep them straight.


----------



## Rikurzhen

Coyote said:


> The SPLC applies pretty good criteria as to what constitutes a hate group.


Senator Goldwater articulated a Civil Rights vision which prohibited government from compelling people into forced associations and restricted Civil Rights provisions only to government, in that governments govern us all and so should treat us all equally and fairly.

Liberals rejected this vision, they favor governments using the force of law and imposition of violence, in order to strip people of their human right to free association.

Does the SPLC list liberals who believe in human rights oppression as an organized hate movement? I view liberals as totalitarians intent on stripping me of my human rights. That qualifies as hate by anyone's standard and yet SPLC doesn't target liberal hate groups, like the Democrats, in its reports.


----------



## Coyote

Islam is a religion of billions who span countries and cultures around the world.  Within in that religion you have huge ethnic, religious, national and cultural divisions.  They are not like Germany and the Nazi's.  They are not monolithic.  Each country has to grapple with a different set of problems - extremists, seperatists, ethnic and tribal divisions fueling extremists.  It's easy to say "Islam needs to do something as a whole" until you realize there isn't "a whole".  No one makes that sort of demand on any other religious group.

Now given that - I do think Islamic majority nations need to grapple their assorted problems and tackle extremism, and they are waking up to the issues particularly in the Middle East - but there is no one "solution" because there is no one "religion" and the problems underlying the growth in extremism are many and varied.


----------



## Dogmaphobe

westwall said:


> But how much of that is based on fear? .




I would suppose that would make Muslims Islamophobes, then, wouldn't it? 

 Add the number of Islamophobes such as Coyote would describe it (anything short of a complete Islamophile) to the number of Muslims who are Islamophobes, and there must be billions.


----------



## Coyote

Rikurzhen said:


> westwall said:
> 
> 
> 
> But how much of that is based on fear?  Face it, if you go off the reservation, there are plenty of Islamists who will happily cut your head off.  I feel that a great majority of the people who remain quiet do so for that very reason.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here's what I suspect you're doing. You;'re taking a model of intimidation which has played out in other situations and applying it to Islam. This is like Liberals seeing how different sects of Christianity act, where people profess a faith and it informs their private spiritual life and then they apply this model to Islam, as though Islam was strictly a private affair to guide one's spiritual life.
> 
> Those models are both faulty. *Moderate Muslims believe in the VERY SAME things as extremist Muslims,* it's only extremist who get off their duff and implement what they believe. Being a true blue Nazi believer but not actually taking to the street to round up Jews doesn't make a moderate Nazi an angel.
Click to expand...


Can you support that claim?

It doesn't seem to be supported by this: Executive Summary Pew Research Center s Religion Public Life Project


----------



## Rikurzhen

Coyote said:


> Rikurzhen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> westwall said:
> 
> 
> 
> But how much of that is based on fear?  Face it, if you go off the reservation, there are plenty of Islamists who will happily cut your head off.  I feel that a great majority of the people who remain quiet do so for that very reason.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here's what I suspect you're doing. You;'re taking a model of intimidation which has played out in other situations and applying it to Islam. This is like Liberals seeing how different sects of Christianity act, where people profess a faith and it informs their private spiritual life and then they apply this model to Islam, as though Islam was strictly a private affair to guide one's spiritual life.
> 
> Those models are both faulty. *Moderate Muslims believe in the VERY SAME things as extremist Muslims,* it's only extremist who get off their duff and implement what they believe. Being a true blue Nazi believer but not actually taking to the street to round up Jews doesn't make a moderate Nazi an angel.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Can you support that claim?
Click to expand...


Apostasy in Islam:

This traditional view of Sunni and Shia Islamic fiqhs, or schools of jurisprudence _each with their own interpretation_ of Sharia, varies as follows:[15][59][16]

_*Hanafi*_ - recommends three days of imprisonment *before execution*, although the delay before killing the Muslim apostate is not mandatory.* Apostates who are men must be killed*, states the Hanafi Sunni fiqh, while women must be held in solitary confinement and beaten every three days till they recant and return to Islam.[3]
*Maliki* - allows up to ten days for recantation, *after which the apostate must be killed*. Both men and women apostates deserve death penalty according to the traditional view of Sunni Maliki fiqh.[59]
_*Shafi'i *_- waiting period of three days is required to allow the Muslim apostate to repent and return to Islam. After the wait, *execution is the traditional recommended punishment for both men and women apostates.*[59]
*Hanbali* - waiting period not necessary, but may be granted.* Execution is traditional recommended punishment for both genders of Muslim apostates.*[59]
*Ja'fari* - waiting period not necessary, but may be granted according to this Shia fiqh.* Male apostate must be executed*, states the Jafari fiqh, while a female apostate must be held in solitary confinement and beaten every day at the hours of the ṣalāh, till she repents and returns to Islam.[3]​We all see the various Christian sects which differ amongst themselves about what Christianity REALLY MEANS, well those same doctrinal differences also play out in Islam. As with Christianity and its core beliefs, Jesus is God, Islam also has it's core beliefs, death to apostates, dividing the world into two realms, the House of Peace and the House of War (lands under Islamic control and lands not under Islamic control, respectively), having a duty to convert the House of War into the House of Peace.


----------



## Coyote

Rikurzhen said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Rikurzhen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> westwall said:
> 
> 
> 
> But how much of that is based on fear?  Face it, if you go off the reservation, there are plenty of Islamists who will happily cut your head off.  I feel that a great majority of the people who remain quiet do so for that very reason.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here's what I suspect you're doing. You;'re taking a model of intimidation which has played out in other situations and applying it to Islam. This is like Liberals seeing how different sects of Christianity act, where people profess a faith and it informs their private spiritual life and then they apply this model to Islam, as though Islam was strictly a private affair to guide one's spiritual life.
> 
> Those models are both faulty. *Moderate Muslims believe in the VERY SAME things as extremist Muslims,* it's only extremist who get off their duff and implement what they believe. Being a true blue Nazi believer but not actually taking to the street to round up Jews doesn't make a moderate Nazi an angel.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Can you support that claim?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Apostasy in Islam:
> 
> This traditional view of Sunni and Shia Islamic fiqhs, or schools of jurisprudence _each with their own interpretation_ of Sharia, varies as follows:[15][59][16]
> 
> _*Hanafi*_ - recommends three days of imprisonment *before execution*, although the delay before killing the Muslim apostate is not mandatory.* Apostates who are men must be killed*, states the Hanafi Sunni fiqh, while women must be held in solitary confinement and beaten every three days till they recant and return to Islam.[3]
> *Maliki* - allows up to ten days for recantation, *after which the apostate must be killed*. Both men and women apostates deserve death penalty according to the traditional view of Sunni Maliki fiqh.[59]
> _*Shafi'i *_- waiting period of three days is required to allow the Muslim apostate to repent and return to Islam. After the wait, *execution is the traditional recommended punishment for both men and women apostates.*[59]
> *Hanbali* - waiting period not necessary, but may be granted.* Execution is traditional recommended punishment for both genders of Muslim apostates.*[59]
> *Ja'fari* - waiting period not necessary, but may be granted according to this Shia fiqh.* Male apostate must be executed*, states the Jafari fiqh, while a female apostate must be held in solitary confinement and beaten every day at the hours of the ṣalāh, till she repents and returns to Islam.[3]​We all see the various Christian sects which differ amongst themselves about what Christianity REALLY MEANS, well those same doctrinal differences also play out in Islam. As with Christianity and its core beliefs, Jesus is God, Islam also has it's core beliefs, death to apostates, dividing the world into two realms, the House of Peace and the House of War (lands under Islamic control and lands not under Islamic control, respectively), having a duty to convert the House of War into the House of Peace.
Click to expand...


That's defining something, but that's not exactly answering the claim "*moderate Muslims believe in the VERY SAME things as extremist Muslims*".

For example - I don't see support among moderate Muslims for killing unbelievers, or  the things ISIS is doing.


----------



## Mojo2

Coyote said:


> Dogmaphobe said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> They are no different than the ADL, for example, .
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Bullshit .  For starters, the ADL protects an ethnic minority from persecution.  *C.A.I.R. is all about enforcing the dictates of a totalitarian political ideology.*
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Really now?
Click to expand...


Yes. Really now.



> Secondly, the ADL *does not provide hit lists of people who have a death threat over their heads* from their fellow Jews.
> I shouldn't even have to mention that fact that the adl does not funnel money to known genocidal terrorist organizations.



Neither does CAIR.  They simply provide a list of hate sites, groups, and individuals who have promoted bigotry.



> Are you in the Muslim Brotherhood?





> No.  I'm stealth Islamist Jihadi.  If you are going to invent labels, please try to keep them straight.



Many a true word was spoken in jest.

I have no doubt you are a real life Jihadi.

This is your Jihad.

Of the pen.

Toward the ultimate goal of global conquest in Allah's name.


----------



## Mojo2

westwall said:


> Uncensored2008 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hate groups and sites should be challenged exposed, regardless of their target population.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Islam is a hate group of 1.2 billion members. Yet you seek to cover for it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SPLC posts many of those same individuals on their site, along with what they've said and done to promote hatred.  They do the same with racists and anti-semites such as David Duke, Michael Savage, Kevin MacDonald etc. etc.  I don't think anyone regards those as "hit lists".  The ADL, for example,  maintains a watch on anti-semitism incidents and individuals promoting anti-semitism and related conspiracy theory crap.  CAIR is doing nothing different than what these other groups do - lifting stones and exposing what lies underneath.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The SPLC is a hate group - no denying it. The SPLC may have a different target than the KKK, specifically Christians, Libertarians, Republicans, and anyone opposing the Obama agenda; but the methods used by the SPLC are virtually identical. The old KKK burned a cross on your lawn, the new KKK runs a hate campaign in the NY Times and lynches you on MSNBC.
> 
> So it makes perfect sense for those who brutally cut the heads off of people on YouTube to join forces with this anti-Christian hate group.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No, Islam is a religion of 1.2 billion people.  The vast majority don't hold to violent ideals.  However, those that do, STILL number over 250 MILLION.  That should give one pause.  And I think CAIR itself is digging itself a hole.  I would like to see their Islamophobe lists countered by lists of known Islamic terrorist organizations that one should not interact with.
> 
> They are too one sided for me.
Click to expand...


Brigitte Gabriel addresses this point beautifully and her comments (in the video below) answered all the remaining questions I had about the moderate Muslims and how to regard them.

Watch.


----------



## Mojo2




----------



## westwall

Mojo2 said:


> westwall said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Uncensored2008 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hate groups and sites should be challenged exposed, regardless of their target population.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Islam is a hate group of 1.2 billion members. Yet you seek to cover for it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SPLC posts many of those same individuals on their site, along with what they've said and done to promote hatred.  They do the same with racists and anti-semites such as David Duke, Michael Savage, Kevin MacDonald etc. etc.  I don't think anyone regards those as "hit lists".  The ADL, for example,  maintains a watch on anti-semitism incidents and individuals promoting anti-semitism and related conspiracy theory crap.  CAIR is doing nothing different than what these other groups do - lifting stones and exposing what lies underneath.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The SPLC is a hate group - no denying it. The SPLC may have a different target than the KKK, specifically Christians, Libertarians, Republicans, and anyone opposing the Obama agenda; but the methods used by the SPLC are virtually identical. The old KKK burned a cross on your lawn, the new KKK runs a hate campaign in the NY Times and lynches you on MSNBC.
> 
> So it makes perfect sense for those who brutally cut the heads off of people on YouTube to join forces with this anti-Christian hate group.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No, Islam is a religion of 1.2 billion people.  The vast majority don't hold to violent ideals.  However, those that do, STILL number over 250 MILLION.  That should give one pause.  And I think CAIR itself is digging itself a hole.  I would like to see their Islamophobe lists countered by lists of known Islamic terrorist organizations that one should not interact with.
> 
> They are too one sided for me.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Brigitte Gabriel addresses this point beautifully and her comments (in the video below) answered all the remaining questions I had about the moderate Muslims and how to regard them.
> 
> Watch.
Click to expand...





Good video.   Me thinks the SPLC will label her an extremist any day now.


----------



## Mojo2

westwall said:


> Mojo2 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> westwall said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Uncensored2008 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hate groups and sites should be challenged exposed, regardless of their target population.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Islam is a hate group of 1.2 billion members. Yet you seek to cover for it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SPLC posts many of those same individuals on their site, along with what they've said and done to promote hatred.  They do the same with racists and anti-semites such as David Duke, Michael Savage, Kevin MacDonald etc. etc.  I don't think anyone regards those as "hit lists".  The ADL, for example,  maintains a watch on anti-semitism incidents and individuals promoting anti-semitism and related conspiracy theory crap.  CAIR is doing nothing different than what these other groups do - lifting stones and exposing what lies underneath.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The SPLC is a hate group - no denying it. The SPLC may have a different target than the KKK, specifically Christians, Libertarians, Republicans, and anyone opposing the Obama agenda; but the methods used by the SPLC are virtually identical. The old KKK burned a cross on your lawn, the new KKK runs a hate campaign in the NY Times and lynches you on MSNBC.
> 
> So it makes perfect sense for those who brutally cut the heads off of people on YouTube to join forces with this anti-Christian hate group.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No, Islam is a religion of 1.2 billion people.  The vast majority don't hold to violent ideals.  However, those that do, STILL number over 250 MILLION.  That should give one pause.  And I think CAIR itself is digging itself a hole.  I would like to see their Islamophobe lists countered by lists of known Islamic terrorist organizations that one should not interact with.
> 
> They are too one sided for me.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Brigitte Gabriel addresses this point beautifully and her comments (in the video below) answered all the remaining questions I had about the moderate Muslims and how to regard them.
> 
> Watch.
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Good video.   Me thinks the SPLC will label her an extremist any day now.
Click to expand...


LOLOL

Good one!


----------



## westwall

Mojo2 said:


> westwall said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mojo2 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> westwall said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Uncensored2008 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hate groups and sites should be challenged exposed, regardless of their target population.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Islam is a hate group of 1.2 billion members. Yet you seek to cover for it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SPLC posts many of those same individuals on their site, along with what they've said and done to promote hatred.  They do the same with racists and anti-semites such as David Duke, Michael Savage, Kevin MacDonald etc. etc.  I don't think anyone regards those as "hit lists".  The ADL, for example,  maintains a watch on anti-semitism incidents and individuals promoting anti-semitism and related conspiracy theory crap.  CAIR is doing nothing different than what these other groups do - lifting stones and exposing what lies underneath.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The SPLC is a hate group - no denying it. The SPLC may have a different target than the KKK, specifically Christians, Libertarians, Republicans, and anyone opposing the Obama agenda; but the methods used by the SPLC are virtually identical. The old KKK burned a cross on your lawn, the new KKK runs a hate campaign in the NY Times and lynches you on MSNBC.
> 
> So it makes perfect sense for those who brutally cut the heads off of people on YouTube to join forces with this anti-Christian hate group.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No, Islam is a religion of 1.2 billion people.  The vast majority don't hold to violent ideals.  However, those that do, STILL number over 250 MILLION.  That should give one pause.  And I think CAIR itself is digging itself a hole.  I would like to see their Islamophobe lists countered by lists of known Islamic terrorist organizations that one should not interact with.
> 
> They are too one sided for me.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Brigitte Gabriel addresses this point beautifully and her comments (in the video below) answered all the remaining questions I had about the moderate Muslims and how to regard them.
> 
> Watch.
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Good video.   Me thinks the SPLC will label her an extremist any day now.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> LOLOL
> 
> Good one!
Click to expand...







Good for her.  I have a feeling that there are going to be some very violent outbursts in the UK and that the Muslims are going to be sent home.....those that survive.  I have quite a few friends in the UK and they are getting fed up with it.  The UK government is blissfully ignorant and the pressure is building.


----------



## georgephillip

westwall said:


> Mojo2 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> westwall said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mojo2 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> westwall said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Uncensored2008 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Islam is a hate group of 1.2 billion members. Yet you seek to cover for it.
> 
> The SPLC is a hate group - no denying it. The SPLC may have a different target than the KKK, specifically Christians, Libertarians, Republicans, and anyone opposing the Obama agenda; but the methods used by the SPLC are virtually identical. The old KKK burned a cross on your lawn, the new KKK runs a hate campaign in the NY Times and lynches you on MSNBC.
> 
> So it makes perfect sense for those who brutally cut the heads off of people on YouTube to join forces with this anti-Christian hate group.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No, Islam is a religion of 1.2 billion people.  The vast majority don't hold to violent ideals.  However, those that do, STILL number over 250 MILLION.  That should give one pause.  And I think CAIR itself is digging itself a hole.  I would like to see their Islamophobe lists countered by lists of known Islamic terrorist organizations that one should not interact with.
> 
> They are too one sided for me.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Brigitte Gabriel addresses this point beautifully and her comments (in the video below) answered all the remaining questions I had about the moderate Muslims and how to regard them.
> 
> Watch.
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Good video.   Me thinks the SPLC will label her an extremist any day now.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> LOLOL
> 
> Good one!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Good for her.  I have a feeling that there are going to be some very violent outbursts in the UK and that the Muslims are going to be sent home.....those that survive.  I have quite a few friends in the UK and they are getting fed up with it.  The UK government is blissfully ignorant and the pressure is building.
Click to expand...

By pressure do you mean blow-back from Sykes-Picot and the Balfour Declaration? Any Muslim violence in France or England stems directly from Empire and so does the resulting Islamophobia.
Islamophobia and the Politics of Empire - Deepa Kumar on Reality Asserts Itself 3 5


----------



## Dogmaphobe

westwall said:


> The UK government is blissfully ignorant and the pressure is building.



Blissfully ignorant?  The word I would use is "complicit". 

Add in the idiocy provided by their media where the witch hunt for "Islamophobes" takes precedence over protecting their children, and I would say there is plenty of blame to be spread around.


----------



## Vigilante




----------



## westwall

georgephillip said:


> westwall said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mojo2 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> westwall said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mojo2 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> westwall said:
> 
> 
> 
> No, Islam is a religion of 1.2 billion people.  The vast majority don't hold to violent ideals.  However, those that do, STILL number over 250 MILLION.  That should give one pause.  And I think CAIR itself is digging itself a hole.  I would like to see their Islamophobe lists countered by lists of known Islamic terrorist organizations that one should not interact with.
> 
> They are too one sided for me.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Brigitte Gabriel addresses this point beautifully and her comments (in the video below) answered all the remaining questions I had about the moderate Muslims and how to regard them.
> 
> Watch.
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Good video.   Me thinks the SPLC will label her an extremist any day now.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> LOLOL
> 
> Good one!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Good for her.  I have a feeling that there are going to be some very violent outbursts in the UK and that the Muslims are going to be sent home.....those that survive.  I have quite a few friends in the UK and they are getting fed up with it.  The UK government is blissfully ignorant and the pressure is building.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> By pressure do you mean blow-back from Sykes-Picot and the Balfour Declaration? Any Muslim violence in France or England stems directly from Empire and so does the resulting Islamophobia.
> Islamophobia and the Politics of Empire - Deepa Kumar on Reality Asserts Itself 3 5
Click to expand...





No, I mean that the British population is going to rise up and kick them the hell out of the UK.  And Islamic violence in France or the UK stems from the fact that they're there!   The moderates are going to be swept up (unfortunately) along with the violent Islamists and sent packing.  The Brits will take an awful, and for a long time.  But when they see their government abandoning them to this sort of ideology, they will act.


----------



## Carla_Danger

jwoodie said:


> Talk to most "moderate" Muslims and you will find that they have been brainwashed against Jews and are unwilling to condemn terrorist murder of innocent civilians.




You've talked to most of the moderate Muslims?


----------



## Carla_Danger

Mojo2 said:


> westwall said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Uncensored2008 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hate groups and sites should be challenged exposed, regardless of their target population.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Islam is a hate group of 1.2 billion members. Yet you seek to cover for it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SPLC posts many of those same individuals on their site, along with what they've said and done to promote hatred.  They do the same with racists and anti-semites such as David Duke, Michael Savage, Kevin MacDonald etc. etc.  I don't think anyone regards those as "hit lists".  The ADL, for example,  maintains a watch on anti-semitism incidents and individuals promoting anti-semitism and related conspiracy theory crap.  CAIR is doing nothing different than what these other groups do - lifting stones and exposing what lies underneath.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The SPLC is a hate group - no denying it. The SPLC may have a different target than the KKK, specifically Christians, Libertarians, Republicans, and anyone opposing the Obama agenda; but the methods used by the SPLC are virtually identical. The old KKK burned a cross on your lawn, the new KKK runs a hate campaign in the NY Times and lynches you on MSNBC.
> 
> So it makes perfect sense for those who brutally cut the heads off of people on YouTube to join forces with this anti-Christian hate group.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No, Islam is a religion of 1.2 billion people.  The vast majority don't hold to violent ideals.  However, those that do, STILL number over 250 MILLION.  That should give one pause.  And I think CAIR itself is digging itself a hole.  I would like to see their Islamophobe lists countered by lists of known Islamic terrorist organizations that one should not interact with.
> 
> They are too one sided for me.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Brigitte Gabriel addresses this point beautifully and her comments (in the video below) answered all the remaining questions I had about the moderate Muslims and how to regard them.
> 
> Watch.
Click to expand...



Brigitte is a lunatic. The Freeman Centre for Jewish Life at Duke University had to apologize for her gross generalizations of Arabs and Muslims.


----------



## Rikurzhen

westwall said:


> Mojo2 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> westwall said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mojo2 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> westwall said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Uncensored2008 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Islam is a hate group of 1.2 billion members. Yet you seek to cover for it.
> 
> The SPLC is a hate group - no denying it. The SPLC may have a different target than the KKK, specifically Christians, Libertarians, Republicans, and anyone opposing the Obama agenda; but the methods used by the SPLC are virtually identical. The old KKK burned a cross on your lawn, the new KKK runs a hate campaign in the NY Times and lynches you on MSNBC.
> 
> So it makes perfect sense for those who brutally cut the heads off of people on YouTube to join forces with this anti-Christian hate group.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No, Islam is a religion of 1.2 billion people.  The vast majority don't hold to violent ideals.  However, those that do, STILL number over 250 MILLION.  That should give one pause.  And I think CAIR itself is digging itself a hole.  I would like to see their Islamophobe lists countered by lists of known Islamic terrorist organizations that one should not interact with.
> 
> They are too one sided for me.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Brigitte Gabriel addresses this point beautifully and her comments (in the video below) answered all the remaining questions I had about the moderate Muslims and how to regard them.
> 
> Watch.
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Good video.   Me thinks the SPLC will label her an extremist any day now.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> LOLOL
> 
> Good one!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Good for her.  I have a feeling that there are going to be some very violent outbursts in the UK and that the Muslims are going to be sent home.....those that survive.  I have quite a few friends in the UK and they are getting fed up with it.  The UK government is blissfully ignorant and the pressure is building.
Click to expand...


From the BBC. Pay attention to the point raised at 3:24 in the documentary.


----------



## Rikurzhen

Coyote said:


> That's defining something, but that's not exactly answering the claim "*moderate Muslims believe in the VERY SAME things as extremist Muslims*"



Can a person call themselves a Christian if they don't believe in the divinity of Christ, if they don't believe in his resurrection, if they don't believe he even existed? To be a Christian, whether barely Christian or fully Christian, one must believe in a set of core tenets. 

The same applies to Islam. Death for apostates is a core belief, hence none of the sects, the schools of jurisprudence, deviates from that position.


----------



## westwall

Rikurzhen said:


> westwall said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mojo2 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> westwall said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mojo2 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> westwall said:
> 
> 
> 
> No, Islam is a religion of 1.2 billion people.  The vast majority don't hold to violent ideals.  However, those that do, STILL number over 250 MILLION.  That should give one pause.  And I think CAIR itself is digging itself a hole.  I would like to see their Islamophobe lists countered by lists of known Islamic terrorist organizations that one should not interact with.
> 
> They are too one sided for me.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Brigitte Gabriel addresses this point beautifully and her comments (in the video below) answered all the remaining questions I had about the moderate Muslims and how to regard them.
> 
> Watch.
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Good video.   Me thinks the SPLC will label her an extremist any day now.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> LOLOL
> 
> Good one!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Good for her.  I have a feeling that there are going to be some very violent outbursts in the UK and that the Muslims are going to be sent home.....those that survive.  I have quite a few friends in the UK and they are getting fed up with it.  The UK government is blissfully ignorant and the pressure is building.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> From the BBC. Pay attention to the point raised at 3:24 in the documentary.
Click to expand...






Yeah, there is too much "colored" vs white rhetoric here.  The problem with Islam is religious.  They are engaging in a religious war with the west and the people need to wake up and recognize that fact.


----------



## Rikurzhen

georgephillip said:


> westwall said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mojo2 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> westwall said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mojo2 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> westwall said:
> 
> 
> 
> No, Islam is a religion of 1.2 billion people.  The vast majority don't hold to violent ideals.  However, those that do, STILL number over 250 MILLION.  That should give one pause.  And I think CAIR itself is digging itself a hole.  I would like to see their Islamophobe lists countered by lists of known Islamic terrorist organizations that one should not interact with.
> 
> They are too one sided for me.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Brigitte Gabriel addresses this point beautifully and her comments (in the video below) answered all the remaining questions I had about the moderate Muslims and how to regard them.
> 
> Watch.
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Good video.   Me thinks the SPLC will label her an extremist any day now.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> LOLOL
> 
> Good one!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Good for her.  I have a feeling that there are going to be some very violent outbursts in the UK and that the Muslims are going to be sent home.....those that survive.  I have quite a few friends in the UK and they are getting fed up with it.  The UK government is blissfully ignorant and the pressure is building.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> By pressure do you mean blow-back from Sykes-Picot and the Balfour Declaration? Any Muslim violence in France or England stems directly from Empire and so does the resulting Islamophobia.
> Islamophobia and the Politics of Empire - Deepa Kumar on Reality Asserts Itself 3 5
Click to expand...


What did Spain have to do with that?

The *2004 Madrid train bombings* (also known in Spain as *11-M*) were nearly simultaneous, coordinated bombings against the _Cercanías_ commuter train system of Madrid, Spain, on the morning of 11 March 2004 – three days before Spain's general elections and two and a half years after the September 11 attacks in the United States. The explosions killed 191 people and wounded 1,800.​


----------



## Rikurzhen

westwall said:


> Yeah, there is too much "colored" vs white rhetoric here.  The problem with Islam is religious.  They are engaging in a religious war with the west and the people need to wake up and recognize that fact.



The point is that the British people were never asked, this was imposed upon them by the Labour Party. No political campaign took place where the proposition was put to people "We want to erase British Culture and replace it with multiculturalism. We want to import Muslims and blacks and then pass the Race Relations Acts which will strip you of freedoms in order to privilege Muslims and blacks.

Yeah, people were upset then and they're very upset now.


----------



## Carla_Danger

Vigilante said:


>





Around here, we only need to ask question # 1.


----------



## westwall

Rikurzhen said:


> westwall said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, there is too much "colored" vs white rhetoric here.  The problem with Islam is religious.  They are engaging in a religious war with the west and the people need to wake up and recognize that fact.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The point is that the British people were never asked, this was imposed upon them by the Labour Party. No political campaign took place where the proposition was put to people "We want to erase British Culture and replace it with multiculturalism. We want to import Muslims and blacks and then pass the Race Relations Acts which will strip you of freedoms in order to privilege Muslims and blacks.
> 
> Yeah, people were upset then and they're very upset now.
Click to expand...






Governments (especially socialistic ones) don't ask for the peoples input.  They don't care about the people except in how to use them most effectively to benefit the State.


----------



## georgephillip

westwall said:


> georgephillip said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> westwall said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mojo2 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> westwall said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mojo2 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Brigitte Gabriel addresses this point beautifully and her comments (in the video below) answered all the remaining questions I had about the moderate Muslims and how to regard them.
> 
> Watch.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Good video.   Me thinks the SPLC will label her an extremist any day now.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> LOLOL
> 
> Good one!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Good for her.  I have a feeling that there are going to be some very violent outbursts in the UK and that the Muslims are going to be sent home.....those that survive.  I have quite a few friends in the UK and they are getting fed up with it.  The UK government is blissfully ignorant and the pressure is building.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> By pressure do you mean blow-back from Sykes-Picot and the Balfour Declaration? Any Muslim violence in France or England stems directly from Empire and so does the resulting Islamophobia.
> Islamophobia and the Politics of Empire - Deepa Kumar on Reality Asserts Itself 3 5
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No, I mean that the British population is going to rise up and kick them the hell out of the UK.  And Islamic violence in France or the UK stems from the fact that they're there!   The moderates are going to be swept up (unfortunately) along with the violent Islamists and sent packing.  The Brits will take an awful, and for a long time.  But when they see their government abandoning them to this sort of ideology, they will act.
Click to expand...

*I know you are aware of Sykes-Picot and the spheres of influence it established in the Muslim world; the British and French populations are about to reap to blow-back from crimes their elites sowed in 1916.
*
"The *Sykes–Picot Agreement*, officially known as the *Asia Minor Agreement*, was a secret agreement between the governments of the United Kingdom and France,[1] with the assent of Russia, defining their proposedspheres of influence and control in theMiddle East should the Triple Ententesucceed in defeating the Ottoman Empireduring World War I. The negotiation of the treaty occurred between November 1915 and March 1916.[2] The agreement was concluded on 16 May 1916.[3]"

Sykes Picot Agreement - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia


----------



## westwall

georgephillip said:


> westwall said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> georgephillip said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> westwall said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mojo2 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> westwall said:
> 
> 
> 
> Good video.   Me thinks the SPLC will label her an extremist any day now.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> LOLOL
> 
> Good one!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Good for her.  I have a feeling that there are going to be some very violent outbursts in the UK and that the Muslims are going to be sent home.....those that survive.  I have quite a few friends in the UK and they are getting fed up with it.  The UK government is blissfully ignorant and the pressure is building.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> By pressure do you mean blow-back from Sykes-Picot and the Balfour Declaration? Any Muslim violence in France or England stems directly from Empire and so does the resulting Islamophobia.
> Islamophobia and the Politics of Empire - Deepa Kumar on Reality Asserts Itself 3 5
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No, I mean that the British population is going to rise up and kick them the hell out of the UK.  And Islamic violence in France or the UK stems from the fact that they're there!   The moderates are going to be swept up (unfortunately) along with the violent Islamists and sent packing.  The Brits will take an awful, and for a long time.  But when they see their government abandoning them to this sort of ideology, they will act.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> *I know you are aware of Sykes-Picot and the spheres of influence it established in the Muslim world; the British and French populations are about to reap to blow-back from crimes their elites sowed in 1916.
> *
> "The *Sykes–Picot Agreement*, officially known as the *Asia Minor Agreement*, was a secret agreement between the governments of the United Kingdom and France,[1] with the assent of Russia, defining their proposedspheres of influence and control in theMiddle East should the Triple Ententesucceed in defeating the Ottoman Empireduring World War I. The negotiation of the treaty occurred between November 1915 and March 1916.[2] The agreement was concluded on 16 May 1916.[3]"
> 
> Sykes Picot Agreement - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia
Click to expand...






Oh please.  This has nothing to do with the current state of affairs.  The Ottoman Empire was semi effective at keeping Islamic extremists under control (they simply killed them) and the end of WWI witnessed the end of that control.  Since then the Islamists have been growing and developing their base so that they can launch their assault on western civilization. 

Go back through history and you see these people have always existed.  Some governments were adept at controlling them.  Hulegu most famously destroyed the Assassins in Alamut, and then destroyed the very Caliphate that the ISIL asshats wish to reform.  From that point on it has been ebb and flow with the Islamists.


----------



## georgephillip

Rikurzhen said:


> georgephillip said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> westwall said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mojo2 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> westwall said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mojo2 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Brigitte Gabriel addresses this point beautifully and her comments (in the video below) answered all the remaining questions I had about the moderate Muslims and how to regard them.
> 
> Watch.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Good video.   Me thinks the SPLC will label her an extremist any day now.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> LOLOL
> 
> Good one!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Good for her.  I have a feeling that there are going to be some very violent outbursts in the UK and that the Muslims are going to be sent home.....those that survive.  I have quite a few friends in the UK and they are getting fed up with it.  The UK government is blissfully ignorant and the pressure is building.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> By pressure do you mean blow-back from Sykes-Picot and the Balfour Declaration? Any Muslim violence in France or England stems directly from Empire and so does the resulting Islamophobia.
> Islamophobia and the Politics of Empire - Deepa Kumar on Reality Asserts Itself 3 5
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> What did Spain have to do with that?
> 
> The *2004 Madrid train bombings* (also known in Spain as *11-M*) were nearly simultaneous, coordinated bombings against the _Cercanías_ commuter train system of Madrid, Spain, on the morning of 11 March 2004 – three days before Spain's general elections and two and a half years after the September 11 attacks in the United States. The explosions killed 191 people and wounded 1,800.​
Click to expand...

"The bombings occurred three days before general elections in which incumbent José María Aznar's PP was defeated.[10] Immediately after the bombing, leaders of the PP claimed evidence indicating the Basque separatist organization, ETA (Euskadi Ta Askatasuna) was responsible for the bombings,[_verification needed_][11][12] while Islamist responsibility would have had the opposite effect,[_verification needed_] as it would have been seen as a consequence of the PP government taking Spain into the Iraq War, a policy extremely unpopular with Spaniards.[13]

*Maybe it's the fault of rich Spaniards who supported the US war of aggression against Iraq?

2004 Madrid train bombings - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia*


----------



## georgephillip

westwall said:


> georgephillip said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> westwall said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> georgephillip said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> westwall said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mojo2 said:
> 
> 
> 
> LOLOL
> 
> Good one!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Good for her.  I have a feeling that there are going to be some very violent outbursts in the UK and that the Muslims are going to be sent home.....those that survive.  I have quite a few friends in the UK and they are getting fed up with it.  The UK government is blissfully ignorant and the pressure is building.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> By pressure do you mean blow-back from Sykes-Picot and the Balfour Declaration? Any Muslim violence in France or England stems directly from Empire and so does the resulting Islamophobia.
> Islamophobia and the Politics of Empire - Deepa Kumar on Reality Asserts Itself 3 5
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No, I mean that the British population is going to rise up and kick them the hell out of the UK.  And Islamic violence in France or the UK stems from the fact that they're there!   The moderates are going to be swept up (unfortunately) along with the violent Islamists and sent packing.  The Brits will take an awful, and for a long time.  But when they see their government abandoning them to this sort of ideology, they will act.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> *I know you are aware of Sykes-Picot and the spheres of influence it established in the Muslim world; the British and French populations are about to reap to blow-back from crimes their elites sowed in 1916.
> *
> "The *Sykes–Picot Agreement*, officially known as the *Asia Minor Agreement*, was a secret agreement between the governments of the United Kingdom and France,[1] with the assent of Russia, defining their proposedspheres of influence and control in theMiddle East should the Triple Ententesucceed in defeating the Ottoman Empireduring World War I. The negotiation of the treaty occurred between November 1915 and March 1916.[2] The agreement was concluded on 16 May 1916.[3]"
> 
> Sykes Picot Agreement - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oh please.  This has nothing to do with the current state of affairs.  The Ottoman Empire was semi effective at keeping Islamic extremists under control (they simply killed them) and the end of WWI witnessed the end of that control.  Since then the Islamists have been growing and developing their base so that they can launch their assault on western civilization.
> 
> Go back through history and you see these people have always existed.  Some governments were adept at controlling them.  Hulegu most famously destroyed the Assassins in Alamut, and then destroyed the very Caliphate that the ISIL asshats wish to reform.  From that point on it has been ebb and flow with the Islamists.
Click to expand...

*The history I see points to a clash of empires and not civilizations driving the anti-Muslim crusades like the one launched by the US in 2003.

Economics explains why the west has meddled in the Middle East for decades, and now that meddling is blowing back on innocent Muslims and non-Muslims alike.
*
"...It's completely about a clash of economic interests. 

"It's about the leaders, the political leaders in Europe versus the political leaders in the Middle East and so forth duking it out for power.

And the fact of the matter is that these leaders were not always against each other as well, because even in the context of the Crusades, you see alliances being made between the Crusader kings and the Muslim kings and people betraying each other for political gain, for economic gain. 

"So there's--the idea that somehow Muslims and Christians have always been at loggerheads with each other is simply not borne out."

Islamophobia and the Politics of Empire - Deepa Kumar on Reality Asserts Itself 3 5


----------



## westwall

georgephillip said:


> westwall said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> georgephillip said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> westwall said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> georgephillip said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> westwall said:
> 
> 
> 
> Good for her.  I have a feeling that there are going to be some very violent outbursts in the UK and that the Muslims are going to be sent home.....those that survive.  I have quite a few friends in the UK and they are getting fed up with it.  The UK government is blissfully ignorant and the pressure is building.
> 
> 
> 
> By pressure do you mean blow-back from Sykes-Picot and the Balfour Declaration? Any Muslim violence in France or England stems directly from Empire and so does the resulting Islamophobia.
> Islamophobia and the Politics of Empire - Deepa Kumar on Reality Asserts Itself 3 5
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No, I mean that the British population is going to rise up and kick them the hell out of the UK.  And Islamic violence in France or the UK stems from the fact that they're there!   The moderates are going to be swept up (unfortunately) along with the violent Islamists and sent packing.  The Brits will take an awful, and for a long time.  But when they see their government abandoning them to this sort of ideology, they will act.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> *I know you are aware of Sykes-Picot and the spheres of influence it established in the Muslim world; the British and French populations are about to reap to blow-back from crimes their elites sowed in 1916.
> *
> "The *Sykes–Picot Agreement*, officially known as the *Asia Minor Agreement*, was a secret agreement between the governments of the United Kingdom and France,[1] with the assent of Russia, defining their proposedspheres of influence and control in theMiddle East should the Triple Ententesucceed in defeating the Ottoman Empireduring World War I. The negotiation of the treaty occurred between November 1915 and March 1916.[2] The agreement was concluded on 16 May 1916.[3]"
> 
> Sykes Picot Agreement - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oh please.  This has nothing to do with the current state of affairs.  The Ottoman Empire was semi effective at keeping Islamic extremists under control (they simply killed them) and the end of WWI witnessed the end of that control.  Since then the Islamists have been growing and developing their base so that they can launch their assault on western civilization.
> 
> Go back through history and you see these people have always existed.  Some governments were adept at controlling them.  Hulegu most famously destroyed the Assassins in Alamut, and then destroyed the very Caliphate that the ISIL asshats wish to reform.  From that point on it has been ebb and flow with the Islamists.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> *The history I see points to a clash of empires and not civilizations driving the anti-Muslim crusades like the one launched by the US in 2003.
> 
> Economics explains why the west has meddled in the Middle East for decades, and now that meddling is blowing back on innocent Muslims and non-Muslims alike.
> *
> "...It's completely about a clash of economic interests.
> 
> "It's about the leaders, the political leaders in Europe versus the political leaders in the Middle East and so forth duking it out for power.
> 
> And the fact of the matter is that these leaders were not always against each other as well, because even in the context of the Crusades, you see alliances being made between the Crusader kings and the Muslim kings and people betraying each other for political gain, for economic gain.
> 
> "So there's--the idea that somehow Muslims and Christians have always been at loggerheads with each other is simply not borne out."
> 
> Islamophobia and the Politics of Empire - Deepa Kumar on Reality Asserts Itself 3 5
Click to expand...





You are myopic like all progressives.  What is beyond the end of your nose is invisible.  These people don't have the beliefs you do.  They don't care about you, or anyone else.  They care about their even more myopic view of the world that has not changed in the last 1000 years.


----------



## georgephillip

westwall said:


> georgephillip said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> westwall said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> georgephillip said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> westwall said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> georgephillip said:
> 
> 
> 
> By pressure do you mean blow-back from Sykes-Picot and the Balfour Declaration? Any Muslim violence in France or England stems directly from Empire and so does the resulting Islamophobia.
> Islamophobia and the Politics of Empire - Deepa Kumar on Reality Asserts Itself 3 5
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No, I mean that the British population is going to rise up and kick them the hell out of the UK.  And Islamic violence in France or the UK stems from the fact that they're there!   The moderates are going to be swept up (unfortunately) along with the violent Islamists and sent packing.  The Brits will take an awful, and for a long time.  But when they see their government abandoning them to this sort of ideology, they will act.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> *I know you are aware of Sykes-Picot and the spheres of influence it established in the Muslim world; the British and French populations are about to reap to blow-back from crimes their elites sowed in 1916.
> *
> "The *Sykes–Picot Agreement*, officially known as the *Asia Minor Agreement*, was a secret agreement between the governments of the United Kingdom and France,[1] with the assent of Russia, defining their proposedspheres of influence and control in theMiddle East should the Triple Ententesucceed in defeating the Ottoman Empireduring World War I. The negotiation of the treaty occurred between November 1915 and March 1916.[2] The agreement was concluded on 16 May 1916.[3]"
> 
> Sykes Picot Agreement - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oh please.  This has nothing to do with the current state of affairs.  The Ottoman Empire was semi effective at keeping Islamic extremists under control (they simply killed them) and the end of WWI witnessed the end of that control.  Since then the Islamists have been growing and developing their base so that they can launch their assault on western civilization.
> 
> Go back through history and you see these people have always existed.  Some governments were adept at controlling them.  Hulegu most famously destroyed the Assassins in Alamut, and then destroyed the very Caliphate that the ISIL asshats wish to reform.  From that point on it has been ebb and flow with the Islamists.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> *The history I see points to a clash of empires and not civilizations driving the anti-Muslim crusades like the one launched by the US in 2003.
> 
> Economics explains why the west has meddled in the Middle East for decades, and now that meddling is blowing back on innocent Muslims and non-Muslims alike.
> *
> "...It's completely about a clash of economic interests.
> 
> "It's about the leaders, the political leaders in Europe versus the political leaders in the Middle East and so forth duking it out for power.
> 
> And the fact of the matter is that these leaders were not always against each other as well, because even in the context of the Crusades, you see alliances being made between the Crusader kings and the Muslim kings and people betraying each other for political gain, for economic gain.
> 
> "So there's--the idea that somehow Muslims and Christians have always been at loggerheads with each other is simply not borne out."
> 
> Islamophobia and the Politics of Empire - Deepa Kumar on Reality Asserts Itself 3 5
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You are myopic like all progressives.  What is beyond the end of your nose is invisible.  These people don't have the beliefs you do.  They don't care about you, or anyone else.  They care about their even more myopic view of the world that has not changed in the last 1000 years.
Click to expand...

They care about empires who maim, murder, and displace millions of civilians for O-I-L; wouldn't you? If the west wants peace, more killing for money won't help.


----------



## Coyote

Mojo2 said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dogmaphobe said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> They are no different than the ADL, for example, .
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Bullshit .  For starters, the ADL protects an ethnic minority from persecution.  *C.A.I.R. is all about enforcing the dictates of a totalitarian political ideology.*
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Really now?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yes. Really now.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Secondly, the ADL *does not provide hit lists of people who have a death threat over their heads* from their fellow Jews.
> I shouldn't even have to mention that fact that the adl does not funnel money to known genocidal terrorist organizations.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Neither does CAIR.  They simply provide a list of hate sites, groups, and individuals who have promoted bigotry.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Are you in the Muslim Brotherhood?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No.  I'm stealth Islamist Jihadi.  If you are going to invent labels, please try to keep them straight.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Many a true word was spoken in jest.
> *
> I have no doubt you are a real life Jihadi.*
> 
> This is your Jihad.
> 
> Of the pen.
> 
> Toward the ultimate goal of global conquest in Allah's name.
Click to expand...

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

What matters in life is this:  truth, justice, equality, compassion and empathy.

Not you.  Not the thousands of hateful Pamela Gelars out there trying to foment something Hitler would approve of.


----------



## Coyote

westwall said:


> Mojo2 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> westwall said:
> 
> 
> 
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> 
> Mojo2 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> westwall said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Uncensored2008 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Islam is a hate group of 1.2 billion members. Yet you seek to cover for it.
> 
> The SPLC is a hate group - no denying it. The SPLC may have a different target than the KKK, specifically Christians, Libertarians, Republicans, and anyone opposing the Obama agenda; but the methods used by the SPLC are virtually identical. The old KKK burned a cross on your lawn, the new KKK runs a hate campaign in the NY Times and lynches you on MSNBC.
> 
> So it makes perfect sense for those who brutally cut the heads off of people on YouTube to join forces with this anti-Christian hate group.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No, Islam is a religion of 1.2 billion people.  The vast majority don't hold to violent ideals.  However, those that do, STILL number over 250 MILLION.  That should give one pause.  And I think CAIR itself is digging itself a hole.  I would like to see their Islamophobe lists countered by lists of known Islamic terrorist organizations that one should not interact with.
> 
> They are too one sided for me.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Brigitte Gabriel addresses this point beautifully and her comments (in the video below) answered all the remaining questions I had about the moderate Muslims and how to regard them.
> 
> Watch.
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Good video.   Me thinks the SPLC will label her an extremist any day now.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> LOLOL
> 
> Good one!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Good for her.  I have a feeling that there are going to be some very violent outbursts in the UK and that the Muslims are going to be sent home.....those that survive.  I have quite a few friends in the UK and they are getting fed up with it.  The UK government is blissfully ignorant and the pressure is building.
Click to expand...



Well damn.  Muslims are Brits too.

Brigitte Gabriel - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia


----------



## Coyote

Dogmaphobe said:


> westwall said:
> 
> 
> 
> The UK government is blissfully ignorant and the pressure is building.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Blissfully ignorant?  The word I would use is "complicit".
> 
> Add in the idiocy provided by their media where the witch hunt for "Islamophobes" takes precedence over protecting their children, and I would say there is plenty of blame to be spread around.
Click to expand...

Yes, I'm quite sure you are happily anticipating a genocide against Muslims.


----------



## Rikurzhen

Coyote said:


> Well damn.  Muslims are Brits to.  WTF?



Muslims are as much Brits as Fallon Fox is a woman.


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## Coyote

Rikurzhen said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well damn.  Muslims are Brits to.  WTF?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Muslims are as much Brits as Fallon Fox is a woman.
Click to expand...




Bullshit.

Muslims are well-integrated in Britain but no one seems to believe it Leon Moosavi Comment is free theguardian.com


----------



## Rikurzhen

Coyote said:


> Rikurzhen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well damn.  Muslims are Brits to.  WTF?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Muslims are as much Brits as Fallon Fox is a woman.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Bullshit.
> 
> Muslims are well-integrated in Britain but no one seems to believe it Leon Moosavi Comment is free theguardian.com
Click to expand...


Britain is a Christian nation with a Christian history. You can't be a Muslim and be a Brit, the best you can ever be is a faux-Brit.


----------



## Coyote

Rikurzhen said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Rikurzhen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well damn.  Muslims are Brits to.  WTF?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Muslims are as much Brits as Fallon Fox is a woman.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Bullshit.
> 
> Muslims are well-integrated in Britain but no one seems to believe it Leon Moosavi Comment is free theguardian.com
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Britain is a Christian nation with a Christian history. You can't be a Muslim and be a Brit, the best you can ever be is a faux-Brit.
Click to expand...


Bull.


----------



## Rikurzhen

Coyote said:


> Rikurzhen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Rikurzhen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well damn.  Muslims are Brits to.  WTF?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Muslims are as much Brits as Fallon Fox is a woman.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Bullshit.
> 
> Muslims are well-integrated in Britain but no one seems to believe it Leon Moosavi Comment is free theguardian.com
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Britain is a Christian nation with a Christian history. You can't be a Muslim and be a Brit, the best you can ever be is a faux-Brit.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Bull.
Click to expand...

You have a very American view of the world, one divorced from blood and soil. Can you become Japanese? Can a Muslim from Nigeria also become a Japanese person?


----------



## westwall

Coyote said:


> westwall said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mojo2 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> westwall said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mojo2 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> westwall said:
> 
> 
> 
> No, Islam is a religion of 1.2 billion people.  The vast majority don't hold to violent ideals.  However, those that do, STILL number over 250 MILLION.  That should give one pause.  And I think CAIR itself is digging itself a hole.  I would like to see their Islamophobe lists countered by lists of known Islamic terrorist organizations that one should not interact with.
> 
> They are too one sided for me.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Brigitte Gabriel addresses this point beautifully and her comments (in the video below) answered all the remaining questions I had about the moderate Muslims and how to regard them.
> 
> Watch.
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Good video.   Me thinks the SPLC will label her an extremist any day now.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> LOLOL
> 
> Good one!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Good for her.  I have a feeling that there are going to be some very violent outbursts in the UK and that the Muslims are going to be sent home.....those that survive.  I have quite a few friends in the UK and they are getting fed up with it.  The UK government is blissfully ignorant and the pressure is building.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Well damn.  Muslims are Brits too.
> 
> Brigitte Gabriel - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia
Click to expand...






She's a Maronite Christian based on the article.


----------



## westwall

Rikurzhen said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Rikurzhen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well damn.  Muslims are Brits to.  WTF?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Muslims are as much Brits as Fallon Fox is a woman.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Bullshit.
> 
> Muslims are well-integrated in Britain but no one seems to believe it Leon Moosavi Comment is free theguardian.com
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Britain is a Christian nation with a Christian history. You can't be a Muslim and be a Brit, the best you can ever be is a faux-Brit.
Click to expand...






Before it was a "Christian" nation it was Roman.  Before Roman it was the Brigantes and Belgae.  Before that it was Celtic and Picts with their Druidism.  Religion doesn't make you "British" nor does it preclude you from being a Brit.  However, intolerance of others and their views and religions....THAT is un British.


----------



## Rikurzhen

westwall said:


> Rikurzhen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Rikurzhen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well damn.  Muslims are Brits to.  WTF?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Muslims are as much Brits as Fallon Fox is a woman.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Bullshit.
> 
> Muslims are well-integrated in Britain but no one seems to believe it Leon Moosavi Comment is free theguardian.com
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Britain is a Christian nation with a Christian history. You can't be a Muslim and be a Brit, the best you can ever be is a faux-Brit.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Before it was a "Christian" nation it was Roman.  Before Roman it was the Brigantes and Belgae.  Before that it was Celtic and Picts with their Druidism.  Religion doesn't make you "British" nor does it preclude you from being a Brit.  However, intolerance of others and their views and religions....THAT is un British.
Click to expand...


You think that all of those transitions were peaceful? Identities are forged, they're not conjured up by dictates. Can a police officer or a judge force you to love your wife?


----------



## Rikurzhen

Coyote said:


> For example - I don't see support among moderate Muslims *for killing unbelievers*, or  the things ISIS is doing.



News from Friday, Oct. 17. 2014. ISIS is not the Lahore High Court of Pakistan where learned judges make their decisions:

A Pakistani high court has upheld the *death sentence given to Asia Bibi, a jailed Christian woman convicted of blasphemy in 2010*, whose case at the time played into an atmosphere of recrimination and spawned several murders of prominent human rights and political figures.

Ms. Bibi’s lawyers had asked the Lahore High Court to overturn the death sentence which was handed down after she had a row with Muslim women neighbors at a village well in Pakistan’s Punjab province. . . .

The Lahore death sentence came during a period of* extreme attacks on Christians* and minorities. In 2010 *the governor of Punjab, Salmaan Taseer, visited Bibi in jail and was shortly after shot dead in Islamabad by his guard, who assumed that Mr. Taseer opposed the blasphemy law and supported Bibi.*

In March 2011, the Federal Minister for Minorities, Shahbaz Bhatti – *who questioned the laws and was photographed with Bibi's husband – was also assassinated in Islamabad.*​


----------



## westwall

Rikurzhen said:


> westwall said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Rikurzhen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Rikurzhen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well damn.  Muslims are Brits to.  WTF?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Muslims are as much Brits as Fallon Fox is a woman.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Bullshit.
> 
> Muslims are well-integrated in Britain but no one seems to believe it Leon Moosavi Comment is free theguardian.com
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Britain is a Christian nation with a Christian history. You can't be a Muslim and be a Brit, the best you can ever be is a faux-Brit.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Before it was a "Christian" nation it was Roman.  Before Roman it was the Brigantes and Belgae.  Before that it was Celtic and Picts with their Druidism.  Religion doesn't make you "British" nor does it preclude you from being a Brit.  However, intolerance of others and their views and religions....THAT is un British.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You think that all of those transitions were peaceful? Identities are forged, they're not conjured up by dictates. Can a police officer or a judge force you to love your wife?
Click to expand...






Tell that to the Gurkhas who have fought and bled for the British Empire for nigh on to 200 years.  They love the UK almost as much (and in some cases more than) their homeland.  They are one of MANY ethnic and religious groups who have fought for Britain.  There are dozens of Indian and Nepalese men who received the Victoria Cross for heroism.  They didn't do that because they didn't like Britain.


----------



## Dogmaphobe

Coyote said:


> Yes, I'm quite sure you are happily anticipating a genocide against Muslims.




 What a repulsively stupid statement. How did you get to be a moderator, anyway?

Yes, if a person is disgusted by the sexual abuse of children, then they are obviously for genocide


----------



## Dogmaphobe

westwall said:


> However, intolerance of others and their views and religions....THAT is un British.




....which would describe a very large percentage of Muslims living in Britain.

They are the the least tolerant segment of the population by far.


----------



## beagle9

Rikurzhen said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> For example - I don't see support among moderate Muslims *for killing unbelievers*, or  the things ISIS is doing.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> News from Friday, Oct. 17. 2014. ISIS is not the Lahore High Court of Pakistan where learned judges make their decisions:
> 
> A Pakistani high court has upheld the *death sentence given to Asia Bibi, a jailed Christian woman convicted of blasphemy in 2010*, whose case at the time played into an atmosphere of recrimination and spawned several murders of prominent human rights and political figures.
> 
> Ms. Bibi’s lawyers had asked the Lahore High Court to overturn the death sentence which was handed down after she had a row with Muslim women neighbors at a village well in Pakistan’s Punjab province. . . .
> 
> The Lahore death sentence came during a period of* extreme attacks on Christians* and minorities. In 2010 *the governor of Punjab, Salmaan Taseer, visited Bibi in jail and was shortly after shot dead in Islamabad by his guard, who assumed that Mr. Taseer opposed the blasphemy law and supported Bibi.*
> 
> In March 2011, the Federal Minister for Minorities, Shahbaz Bhatti – *who questioned the laws and was photographed with Bibi's husband – was also assassinated in Islamabad.*​
Click to expand...

How we have had anything much to do with Pakistan is outright amazing to me (billions given to them over time?).. How we have had anything to do with any such tribal factions or such nations in which support tribalism along with separatisim within and among such nations is just amazing to me (what was in it for us again?). I mean what has this nation gained by it all over time ? One thing about people who have been or are out in the world being oppressed like we have seen in many cases, is that they become corrupted by such oppression over time. Then we entertain them here with their corruption still intact (hard to get t out of themselves), and then what do they do ? They bring that same corruption into our nation like a virus, except that they are supported by the US government over the American citizens who are already here (huge handouts or a big hand up is given them, while many Americans who work hard get nothing from the US government but misery instead). I've seen this now, and so how idiot is all of this again ? Fast as a rabbit running, the Americans are becoming the jackasses of the world, because the world is looking on us as fools, and it is thinking how stupid are those Americans again ? We have to make a stand on what we can all agree on in which is American principles and standards once again or we are done ourselves being a country that is supposedly United around those things. Sorry to say that I have dealt with specific peoples who have come from other countries, and you wouldn't believe how corrupt these people can be. Now not all of them are corrupt I would venture to say, but I have met those who are, and then meeting them more than I would have thought there would be in numbers wise who are like this, it has been an eye opener for me as the average American.

Have we been sold down the river for the purpose of big business or just business in general I wonder ? Why have all these things gone down over the years now in this nation ? Why has the feds seemed to have had an agenda to destroy certain elements in this nation over time, to then replace them with others over time ? Has the judgements been right or have they been unjust and wrong headed when dealing with the Americans as it has been dealt with over time ? Many questions to ponder now for the Americans, and especially by everything that is being witnessed and experienced now in America or in the world by those who call themselves Americans and/or Christians out in the world.


----------



## Coyote

Rikurzhen said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> For example - I don't see support among moderate Muslims *for killing unbelievers*, or  the things ISIS is doing.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> News from Friday, Oct. 17. 2014. ISIS is not the Lahore High Court of Pakistan where learned judges make their decisions:
> 
> A Pakistani high court has upheld the *death sentence given to Asia Bibi, a jailed Christian woman convicted of blasphemy in 2010*, whose case at the time played into an atmosphere of recrimination and spawned several murders of prominent human rights and political figures.
> 
> Ms. Bibi’s lawyers had asked the Lahore High Court to overturn the death sentence which was handed down after she had a row with Muslim women neighbors at a village well in Pakistan’s Punjab province. . . .
> 
> The Lahore death sentence came during a period of* extreme attacks on Christians* and minorities. In 2010 *the governor of Punjab, Salmaan Taseer, visited Bibi in jail and was shortly after shot dead in Islamabad by his guard, who assumed that Mr. Taseer opposed the blasphemy law and supported Bibi.*
> 
> In March 2011, the Federal Minister for Minorities, Shahbaz Bhatti – *who questioned the laws and was photographed with Bibi's husband – was also assassinated in Islamabad.*​
Click to expand...


Considering that Pakistan ranks #1 for religious hostility and intolerance on both a social and governmental level, why on earth are you using it as an example of "moderate Islam"?


----------



## Coyote

Dogmaphobe said:


> westwall said:
> 
> 
> 
> However, intolerance of others and their views and religions....THAT is un British.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ....which would describe a very large percentage of Muslims living in Britain.
> 
> They are the the least tolerant segment of the population by far.
Click to expand...


Least tolerant of what?

Tolerance towards homosexuals?  Muslim communities in general tend to be conservative on matters of sex and are among the least tolerant towards gay rights.  Opinion polls generally support that.  However, I think it's important to recognize that this level of tolerance is not a long standing British value - it's one that has gained ground slowly and painfully and much of the non-western world lags behind as do traditionally religious groups. That doesn't mean that greater tolerance isn't possible, won't happen or isn't happening now or that pressure shouldn't be applied to push for greater tolerance and recognition of homosexuals and their rights.

Muslims in Britain have zero tolerance of homosexuality says poll UK news theguardian.com



> The survey, the Gallup Coexist Index 2009, concluded that while European Muslims not only accepted but welcomed the freedoms, democratic institutions, justice, and human rights that characterised their societies, their perceived lack of integration was often explained by their rejection of liberal, sexual mores.
> 
> It said: "Some researchers point out that the greatest differences between Muslims and westerners lie more in eros than demos. In other words, the Muslim-west gap rests on differences in attitudes toward sexual liberalisation and gender issues rather than democracy and governance.



On the other hand, there are other types of intolerance.  For example religious intolerance.

Some interesting perspectives on tolerance in Britain:

From June 2014:  Who Is More Likely To Be Ashamed To Be British - Scots Or Muslims 


> Scottish people are more likely than Muslims to say they are not proud to be British, a new poll has found, but the research also showed some non-religious Brits still believe that Muslims should not celebrate their religion openly.
> 
> Sixty-three per cent of British Muslims declare themselves proud to be British, while the number who do not share that pride is just 13% – less than the 17% of Scots who say the same.
> 
> According to the YouGov opinion poll on behalf of the charity Islamic Relief to mark the beginning of Ramadan, a quarter of non-Muslims believe that the holy month should not be openly celebrated in this country.
> 
> “This poll paints a very different picture of the British Muslim community from the extremist caricature that is sometimes peddled by certain politicians and in some sections of the media,” Channel 4 broadcaster Jon Snow said at the charity's fundraising dinner Thursday night.
> 
> "Seventy per cent of British Muslims say they believe in 'freedom, tolerance of others, accepting personal and social responsibility, and respecting and upholding the rule of law' – the core values of Britishness as recently defined by David Cameron – while a tiny 6% do not.”
> 
> ....The survey results come just days after thousands of young British Muslim men from the Ahmadiyya Muslim Youth Association took part in a rally to defend British values and promising to reject recruitment into radical groups.









*Has Islam-bashing tarnished ‘tolerant Britain?’ *


> Yet all is not lost. The majority of the British population reject the UKIP line with around 62% seeing it as racist or attractive to racists. British Muslims are climbing the ladder to the top in most professions increasingly engaged in British public life. But UKIP’s popularity, fleeting or not, should not be ignored and its anti-Islamic, xenophobic rhetoric properly shown up for what it is. It is a warning shot both to the Muslim community that for its own sake needs leadership and strategy to move forward and to the political establishment that has still lamentably failed to engage maturely with British Muslims and ethnic minorities. The legitimate public concerns and fears that UKIP has profited from such as the future of the EU and mass immigration must be addressed but shorn of the racist hate-fest that too many of its core membership embrace.



Quarter of young British people do not trust Muslims - BBC Newsbeat


> Of the 1,000 young people questioned, 28% said Britain would be better off with fewer Muslims, while 44% said Muslims did not share the same values as the rest of the population.



Attitudes to Muslims British Religion in Numbers
Another article exploring views on the aftermath of the youtube film "Innocence of Muslims".  While a lot of attention has been paid to the Muslim outrage and calls for banning the film and prosecuting the maker of it as examples of Islamic intolerance in Britain, a substantial number of British express a similar view.

Britain as a whole is an extremely diverse and tolerant society and it appears that it's Muslim population reflects that tolerance with the notable exception of attitudes towards homosexuality.  They appear to be tolerant of other religions, largely British in culture, attitudes and views towards governance.  There are always going to be examples of intolerance (cue - honor killing article) but it doesn't seem to jive with the claim of "least tolerant by far" of others and their views and religions.  The other aspect to consider is that Britain's Muslims come from a vast array of  immigrant cultures covering Asia, N Africa, Middle East and Eastern Europe - each of whom bring with them their own cultural background and have been in Britain for differing lengths of time.  Is it accurate to paint them as one homogenous group?


----------



## Rikurzhen

westwall said:


> Tell that to the Gurkhas who have fought and bled for the British Empire for nigh on to 200 years.  They love the UK almost as much (and in some cases more than) their homeland.  They are one of MANY ethnic and religious groups who have fought for Britain.  There are dozens of Indian and Nepalese men who received the Victoria Cross for heroism.  They didn't do that because they didn't like Britain.



Don't be a silly billy. Gurkhas don't join because they magically love some distant foreign land, they join because a.) many of their fellows have joined, b.) it's a good way to make a living, and c.) it enhances their status in Nepal. They fight for their unit, not for love of tea and crumpets.


----------



## Dogmaphobe

Coyote said:


> Dogmaphobe said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> westwall said:
> 
> 
> 
> However, intolerance of others and their views and religions....THAT is un British.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ....which would describe a very large percentage of Muslims living in Britain.
> 
> They are the the least tolerant segment of the population by far.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Least tolerant of what?
> 
> Tolerance towards homosexuals?  Muslim communities in general tend to be conservative on matters of sex and are among the least tolerant towards gay rights.  Opinion polls generally support that.  However, I think it's important to recognize that this level of tolerance is not a long standing British value - it's one that has gained ground slowly and painfully and much of the non-western world lags behind as do traditionally religious groups. That doesn't mean that greater tolerance isn't possible, won't happen or isn't happening now or that pressure shouldn't be applied to push for greater tolerance and recognition of homosexuals and their rights.
> 
> Muslims in Britain have zero tolerance of homosexuality says poll UK news theguardian.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The survey, the Gallup Coexist Index 2009, concluded that while European Muslims not only accepted but welcomed the freedoms, democratic institutions, justice, and human rights that characterised their societies, their perceived lack of integration was often explained by their rejection of liberal, sexual mores.
> 
> It said: "Some researchers point out that the greatest differences between Muslims and westerners lie more in eros than demos. In other words, the Muslim-west gap rests on differences in attitudes toward sexual liberalisation and gender issues rather than democracy and governance.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> On the other hand, there are other types of intolerance.  For example religious intolerance.
> 
> Some interesting perspectives on tolerance in Britain:
> 
> From June 2014:  Who Is More Likely To Be Ashamed To Be British - Scots Or Muslims
> 
> 
> 
> Scottish people are more likely than Muslims to say they are not proud to be British, a new poll has found, but the research also showed some non-religious Brits still believe that Muslims should not celebrate their religion openly.
> 
> Sixty-three per cent of British Muslims declare themselves proud to be British, while the number who do not share that pride is just 13% – less than the 17% of Scots who say the same.
> 
> According to the YouGov opinion poll on behalf of the charity Islamic Relief to mark the beginning of Ramadan, a quarter of non-Muslims believe that the holy month should not be openly celebrated in this country.
> 
> “This poll paints a very different picture of the British Muslim community from the extremist caricature that is sometimes peddled by certain politicians and in some sections of the media,” Channel 4 broadcaster Jon Snow said at the charity's fundraising dinner Thursday night.
> 
> "Seventy per cent of British Muslims say they believe in 'freedom, tolerance of others, accepting personal and social responsibility, and respecting and upholding the rule of law' – the core values of Britishness as recently defined by David Cameron – while a tiny 6% do not.”
> 
> ....The survey results come just days after thousands of young British Muslim men from the Ahmadiyya Muslim Youth Association took part in a rally to defend British values and promising to reject recruitment into radical groups.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Has Islam-bashing tarnished ‘tolerant Britain?’ *
> 
> 
> 
> Yet all is not lost. The majority of the British population reject the UKIP line with around 62% seeing it as racist or attractive to racists. British Muslims are climbing the ladder to the top in most professions increasingly engaged in British public life. But UKIP’s popularity, fleeting or not, should not be ignored and its anti-Islamic, xenophobic rhetoric properly shown up for what it is. It is a warning shot both to the Muslim community that for its own sake needs leadership and strategy to move forward and to the political establishment that has still lamentably failed to engage maturely with British Muslims and ethnic minorities. The legitimate public concerns and fears that UKIP has profited from such as the future of the EU and mass immigration must be addressed but shorn of the racist hate-fest that too many of its core membership embrace.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Quarter of young British people do not trust Muslims - BBC Newsbeat
> 
> 
> 
> Of the 1,000 young people questioned, 28% said Britain would be better off with fewer Muslims, while 44% said Muslims did not share the same values as the rest of the population.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Attitudes to Muslims British Religion in Numbers
> Another article exploring views on the aftermath of the youtube film "Innocence of Muslims".  While a lot of attention has been paid to the Muslim outrage and calls for banning the film and prosecuting the maker of it as examples of Islamic intolerance in Britain, a substantial number of British express a similar view.
> 
> Britain as a whole is an extremely diverse and tolerant society and it appears that it's Muslim population reflects that tolerance with the notable exception of attitudes towards homosexuality.  They appear to be tolerant of other religions, largely British in culture, attitudes and views towards governance.  There are always going to be examples of intolerance (cue - honor killing article) but it doesn't seem to jive with the claim of "least tolerant by far" of others and their views and religions.  The other aspect to consider is that Britain's Muslims come from a vast array of  immigrant cultures covering Asia, N Africa, Middle East and Eastern Europe - each of whom bring with them their own cultural background and have been in Britain for differing lengths of time.  Is it accurate to paint them as one homogenous group?
Click to expand...


Are you a member of Nation of Islam?

You were calling people "crackers" in another thread.



 Speaking of intolerance, however, 2/3 of British Muslims want criticism of Islam to be an offense punishable by law.


----------



## Coyote

Dogmaphobe said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dogmaphobe said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> westwall said:
> 
> 
> 
> However, intolerance of others and their views and religions....THAT is un British.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ....which would describe a very large percentage of Muslims living in Britain.
> 
> They are the the least tolerant segment of the population by far.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Least tolerant of what?
> 
> Tolerance towards homosexuals?  Muslim communities in general tend to be conservative on matters of sex and are among the least tolerant towards gay rights.  Opinion polls generally support that.  However, I think it's important to recognize that this level of tolerance is not a long standing British value - it's one that has gained ground slowly and painfully and much of the non-western world lags behind as do traditionally religious groups. That doesn't mean that greater tolerance isn't possible, won't happen or isn't happening now or that pressure shouldn't be applied to push for greater tolerance and recognition of homosexuals and their rights.
> 
> Muslims in Britain have zero tolerance of homosexuality says poll UK news theguardian.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The survey, the Gallup Coexist Index 2009, concluded that while European Muslims not only accepted but welcomed the freedoms, democratic institutions, justice, and human rights that characterised their societies, their perceived lack of integration was often explained by their rejection of liberal, sexual mores.
> 
> It said: "Some researchers point out that the greatest differences between Muslims and westerners lie more in eros than demos. In other words, the Muslim-west gap rests on differences in attitudes toward sexual liberalisation and gender issues rather than democracy and governance.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> On the other hand, there are other types of intolerance.  For example religious intolerance.
> 
> Some interesting perspectives on tolerance in Britain:
> 
> From June 2014:  Who Is More Likely To Be Ashamed To Be British - Scots Or Muslims
> 
> 
> 
> Scottish people are more likely than Muslims to say they are not proud to be British, a new poll has found, but the research also showed some non-religious Brits still believe that Muslims should not celebrate their religion openly.
> 
> Sixty-three per cent of British Muslims declare themselves proud to be British, while the number who do not share that pride is just 13% – less than the 17% of Scots who say the same.
> 
> According to the YouGov opinion poll on behalf of the charity Islamic Relief to mark the beginning of Ramadan, a quarter of non-Muslims believe that the holy month should not be openly celebrated in this country.
> 
> “This poll paints a very different picture of the British Muslim community from the extremist caricature that is sometimes peddled by certain politicians and in some sections of the media,” Channel 4 broadcaster Jon Snow said at the charity's fundraising dinner Thursday night.
> 
> "Seventy per cent of British Muslims say they believe in 'freedom, tolerance of others, accepting personal and social responsibility, and respecting and upholding the rule of law' – the core values of Britishness as recently defined by David Cameron – while a tiny 6% do not.”
> 
> ....The survey results come just days after thousands of young British Muslim men from the Ahmadiyya Muslim Youth Association took part in a rally to defend British values and promising to reject recruitment into radical groups.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Has Islam-bashing tarnished ‘tolerant Britain?’ *
> 
> 
> 
> Yet all is not lost. The majority of the British population reject the UKIP line with around 62% seeing it as racist or attractive to racists. British Muslims are climbing the ladder to the top in most professions increasingly engaged in British public life. But UKIP’s popularity, fleeting or not, should not be ignored and its anti-Islamic, xenophobic rhetoric properly shown up for what it is. It is a warning shot both to the Muslim community that for its own sake needs leadership and strategy to move forward and to the political establishment that has still lamentably failed to engage maturely with British Muslims and ethnic minorities. The legitimate public concerns and fears that UKIP has profited from such as the future of the EU and mass immigration must be addressed but shorn of the racist hate-fest that too many of its core membership embrace.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Quarter of young British people do not trust Muslims - BBC Newsbeat
> 
> 
> 
> Of the 1,000 young people questioned, 28% said Britain would be better off with fewer Muslims, while 44% said Muslims did not share the same values as the rest of the population.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Attitudes to Muslims British Religion in Numbers
> Another article exploring views on the aftermath of the youtube film "Innocence of Muslims".  While a lot of attention has been paid to the Muslim outrage and calls for banning the film and prosecuting the maker of it as examples of Islamic intolerance in Britain, a substantial number of British express a similar view.
> 
> Britain as a whole is an extremely diverse and tolerant society and it appears that it's Muslim population reflects that tolerance with the notable exception of attitudes towards homosexuality.  They appear to be tolerant of other religions, largely British in culture, attitudes and views towards governance.  There are always going to be examples of intolerance (cue - honor killing article) but it doesn't seem to jive with the claim of "least tolerant by far" of others and their views and religions.  The other aspect to consider is that Britain's Muslims come from a vast array of  immigrant cultures covering Asia, N Africa, Middle East and Eastern Europe - each of whom bring with them their own cultural background and have been in Britain for differing lengths of time.  Is it accurate to paint them as one homogenous group?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Are you a member of Nation of Islam?
> 
> You were calling people "crackers" in another thread.
> 
> 
> 
> Speaking of intolerance, however, 2/3 of British Muslims want criticism of Islam to be an offense punishable by law.
Click to expand...

*
What?  I called people crackers?  I don't think I've ever done that - link please.*

Do you have a link to that claim 2/3 want criticism of Islam to be punishable?

How is that less tolerant than those calling for a ban on the veil in Britain? (beyond the common sense in certain occupations)?


----------



## Unkotare

Rikurzhen said:


> You have a very American view of the world, one divorced from blood and soil.



What's wrong with that? It's worked out pretty well for us.


----------



## Unkotare

Rikurzhen said:


> Can you become Japanese? Can a Muslim from Nigeria also become a Japanese person?




Are you really incapable of distinguishing citizenship from ethnicity?


----------



## Rikurzhen

Coyote said:


> Dogmaphobe said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dogmaphobe said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> westwall said:
> 
> 
> 
> However, intolerance of others and their views and religions....THAT is un British.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ....which would describe a very large percentage of Muslims living in Britain.
> 
> They are the the least tolerant segment of the population by far.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Least tolerant of what?
> 
> Tolerance towards homosexuals?  Muslim communities in general tend to be conservative on matters of sex and are among the least tolerant towards gay rights.  Opinion polls generally support that.  However, I think it's important to recognize that this level of tolerance is not a long standing British value - it's one that has gained ground slowly and painfully and much of the non-western world lags behind as do traditionally religious groups. That doesn't mean that greater tolerance isn't possible, won't happen or isn't happening now or that pressure shouldn't be applied to push for greater tolerance and recognition of homosexuals and their rights.
> 
> Muslims in Britain have zero tolerance of homosexuality says poll UK news theguardian.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The survey, the Gallup Coexist Index 2009, concluded that while European Muslims not only accepted but welcomed the freedoms, democratic institutions, justice, and human rights that characterised their societies, their perceived lack of integration was often explained by their rejection of liberal, sexual mores.
> 
> It said: "Some researchers point out that the greatest differences between Muslims and westerners lie more in eros than demos. In other words, the Muslim-west gap rests on differences in attitudes toward sexual liberalisation and gender issues rather than democracy and governance.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> On the other hand, there are other types of intolerance.  For example religious intolerance.
> 
> Some interesting perspectives on tolerance in Britain:
> 
> From June 2014:  Who Is More Likely To Be Ashamed To Be British - Scots Or Muslims
> 
> 
> 
> Scottish people are more likely than Muslims to say they are not proud to be British, a new poll has found, but the research also showed some non-religious Brits still believe that Muslims should not celebrate their religion openly.
> 
> Sixty-three per cent of British Muslims declare themselves proud to be British, while the number who do not share that pride is just 13% – less than the 17% of Scots who say the same.
> 
> According to the YouGov opinion poll on behalf of the charity Islamic Relief to mark the beginning of Ramadan, a quarter of non-Muslims believe that the holy month should not be openly celebrated in this country.
> 
> “This poll paints a very different picture of the British Muslim community from the extremist caricature that is sometimes peddled by certain politicians and in some sections of the media,” Channel 4 broadcaster Jon Snow said at the charity's fundraising dinner Thursday night.
> 
> "Seventy per cent of British Muslims say they believe in 'freedom, tolerance of others, accepting personal and social responsibility, and respecting and upholding the rule of law' – the core values of Britishness as recently defined by David Cameron – while a tiny 6% do not.”
> 
> ....The survey results come just days after thousands of young British Muslim men from the Ahmadiyya Muslim Youth Association took part in a rally to defend British values and promising to reject recruitment into radical groups.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Has Islam-bashing tarnished ‘tolerant Britain?’ *
> 
> 
> 
> Yet all is not lost. The majority of the British population reject the UKIP line with around 62% seeing it as racist or attractive to racists. British Muslims are climbing the ladder to the top in most professions increasingly engaged in British public life. But UKIP’s popularity, fleeting or not, should not be ignored and its anti-Islamic, xenophobic rhetoric properly shown up for what it is. It is a warning shot both to the Muslim community that for its own sake needs leadership and strategy to move forward and to the political establishment that has still lamentably failed to engage maturely with British Muslims and ethnic minorities. The legitimate public concerns and fears that UKIP has profited from such as the future of the EU and mass immigration must be addressed but shorn of the racist hate-fest that too many of its core membership embrace.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Quarter of young British people do not trust Muslims - BBC Newsbeat
> 
> 
> 
> Of the 1,000 young people questioned, 28% said Britain would be better off with fewer Muslims, while 44% said Muslims did not share the same values as the rest of the population.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Attitudes to Muslims British Religion in Numbers
> Another article exploring views on the aftermath of the youtube film "Innocence of Muslims".  While a lot of attention has been paid to the Muslim outrage and calls for banning the film and prosecuting the maker of it as examples of Islamic intolerance in Britain, a substantial number of British express a similar view.
> 
> Britain as a whole is an extremely diverse and tolerant society and it appears that it's Muslim population reflects that tolerance with the notable exception of attitudes towards homosexuality.  They appear to be tolerant of other religions, largely British in culture, attitudes and views towards governance.  There are always going to be examples of intolerance (cue - honor killing article) but it doesn't seem to jive with the claim of "least tolerant by far" of others and their views and religions.  The other aspect to consider is that Britain's Muslims come from a vast array of  immigrant cultures covering Asia, N Africa, Middle East and Eastern Europe - each of whom bring with them their own cultural background and have been in Britain for differing lengths of time.  Is it accurate to paint them as one homogenous group?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Are you a member of Nation of Islam?
> 
> You were calling people "crackers" in another thread.
> 
> 
> 
> Speaking of intolerance, however, 2/3 of British Muslims want criticism of Islam to be an offense punishable by law.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> How is that less tolerant than those calling for a ban on the veil in Britain? (beyond the common sense in certain occupations)?
Click to expand...


Because calling for a ban is in defense of British culture and calling for a ban on criticism of Islam is in defense of a foreign religion that has no roots in British culture.


----------



## Dogmaphobe

Coyote said:


> ]
> *
> What?  I called people crackers?  I don't think I've ever done that - link please.*
> 
> Do you have a link to that claim 2/3 want criticism of Islam to be punishable?
> 
> How is that less tolerant than those calling for a ban on the veil in Britain? (beyond the common sense in certain occupations)?




My mistake on the cracker comment. It was Guno.   My apologies for the mistake.

The 2/3 figure comes from Pew research.  It is part of the polling figures that reveal that 40% of British Muslims want Sharia to rule the land.

Are you Muslim? You still have not answered.


----------



## Coyote

Rikurzhen said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dogmaphobe said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dogmaphobe said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> westwall said:
> 
> 
> 
> However, intolerance of others and their views and religions....THAT is un British.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ....which would describe a very large percentage of Muslims living in Britain.
> 
> They are the the least tolerant segment of the population by far.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Least tolerant of what?
> 
> Tolerance towards homosexuals?  Muslim communities in general tend to be conservative on matters of sex and are among the least tolerant towards gay rights.  Opinion polls generally support that.  However, I think it's important to recognize that this level of tolerance is not a long standing British value - it's one that has gained ground slowly and painfully and much of the non-western world lags behind as do traditionally religious groups. That doesn't mean that greater tolerance isn't possible, won't happen or isn't happening now or that pressure shouldn't be applied to push for greater tolerance and recognition of homosexuals and their rights.
> 
> Muslims in Britain have zero tolerance of homosexuality says poll UK news theguardian.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The survey, the Gallup Coexist Index 2009, concluded that while European Muslims not only accepted but welcomed the freedoms, democratic institutions, justice, and human rights that characterised their societies, their perceived lack of integration was often explained by their rejection of liberal, sexual mores.
> 
> It said: "Some researchers point out that the greatest differences between Muslims and westerners lie more in eros than demos. In other words, the Muslim-west gap rests on differences in attitudes toward sexual liberalisation and gender issues rather than democracy and governance.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> On the other hand, there are other types of intolerance.  For example religious intolerance.
> 
> Some interesting perspectives on tolerance in Britain:
> 
> From June 2014:  Who Is More Likely To Be Ashamed To Be British - Scots Or Muslims
> 
> 
> 
> Scottish people are more likely than Muslims to say they are not proud to be British, a new poll has found, but the research also showed some non-religious Brits still believe that Muslims should not celebrate their religion openly.
> 
> Sixty-three per cent of British Muslims declare themselves proud to be British, while the number who do not share that pride is just 13% – less than the 17% of Scots who say the same.
> 
> According to the YouGov opinion poll on behalf of the charity Islamic Relief to mark the beginning of Ramadan, a quarter of non-Muslims believe that the holy month should not be openly celebrated in this country.
> 
> “This poll paints a very different picture of the British Muslim community from the extremist caricature that is sometimes peddled by certain politicians and in some sections of the media,” Channel 4 broadcaster Jon Snow said at the charity's fundraising dinner Thursday night.
> 
> "Seventy per cent of British Muslims say they believe in 'freedom, tolerance of others, accepting personal and social responsibility, and respecting and upholding the rule of law' – the core values of Britishness as recently defined by David Cameron – while a tiny 6% do not.”
> 
> ....The survey results come just days after thousands of young British Muslim men from the Ahmadiyya Muslim Youth Association took part in a rally to defend British values and promising to reject recruitment into radical groups.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Has Islam-bashing tarnished ‘tolerant Britain?’ *
> 
> 
> 
> Yet all is not lost. The majority of the British population reject the UKIP line with around 62% seeing it as racist or attractive to racists. British Muslims are climbing the ladder to the top in most professions increasingly engaged in British public life. But UKIP’s popularity, fleeting or not, should not be ignored and its anti-Islamic, xenophobic rhetoric properly shown up for what it is. It is a warning shot both to the Muslim community that for its own sake needs leadership and strategy to move forward and to the political establishment that has still lamentably failed to engage maturely with British Muslims and ethnic minorities. The legitimate public concerns and fears that UKIP has profited from such as the future of the EU and mass immigration must be addressed but shorn of the racist hate-fest that too many of its core membership embrace.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Quarter of young British people do not trust Muslims - BBC Newsbeat
> 
> 
> 
> Of the 1,000 young people questioned, 28% said Britain would be better off with fewer Muslims, while 44% said Muslims did not share the same values as the rest of the population.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Attitudes to Muslims British Religion in Numbers
> Another article exploring views on the aftermath of the youtube film "Innocence of Muslims".  While a lot of attention has been paid to the Muslim outrage and calls for banning the film and prosecuting the maker of it as examples of Islamic intolerance in Britain, a substantial number of British express a similar view.
> 
> Britain as a whole is an extremely diverse and tolerant society and it appears that it's Muslim population reflects that tolerance with the notable exception of attitudes towards homosexuality.  They appear to be tolerant of other religions, largely British in culture, attitudes and views towards governance.  There are always going to be examples of intolerance (cue - honor killing article) but it doesn't seem to jive with the claim of "least tolerant by far" of others and their views and religions.  The other aspect to consider is that Britain's Muslims come from a vast array of  immigrant cultures covering Asia, N Africa, Middle East and Eastern Europe - each of whom bring with them their own cultural background and have been in Britain for differing lengths of time.  Is it accurate to paint them as one homogenous group?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Are you a member of Nation of Islam?
> 
> You were calling people "crackers" in another thread.
> 
> 
> 
> Speaking of intolerance, however, 2/3 of British Muslims want criticism of Islam to be an offense punishable by law.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> How is that less tolerant than those calling for a ban on the veil in Britain? (beyond the common sense in certain occupations)?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Because calling for a ban is in defense of British culture and calling for a ban on criticism of Islam is in defense of a foreign religion that has no roots in British culture.
Click to expand...


In other words - you approve of intolerance towards other cultures, religions and views.  Which...is...exactly what you are accusing British Muslims of.


----------



## Coyote

Dogmaphobe said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> ]
> *
> What?  I called people crackers?  I don't think I've ever done that - link please.*
> 
> Do you have a link to that claim 2/3 want criticism of Islam to be punishable?
> 
> How is that less tolerant than those calling for a ban on the veil in Britain? (beyond the common sense in certain occupations)?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> My mistake on the cracker comment. It was Guno.   My apologies for the mistake.
> 
> The 2/3 figure comes from Pew research.  It is part of the polling figures that reveal that 40% of British Muslims want Sharia to rule the land.
> 
> Are you Muslim? You still have not answered.
Click to expand...


Can you provide a link to that poll? Pew is a good, reputable source - I'd like to see it in entirety.

As to whether I am a Muslim - what does that have to do with any discussion?


----------



## Rikurzhen

Unkotare said:


> Rikurzhen said:
> 
> 
> 
> Can you become Japanese? Can a Muslim from Nigeria also become a Japanese person?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Are you really incapable of distinguishing citizenship from ethnicity?
Click to expand...



Ethnicity:

British






Not British


----------



## Rikurzhen

Coyote said:


> Rikurzhen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dogmaphobe said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dogmaphobe said:
> 
> 
> 
> ....which would describe a very large percentage of Muslims living in Britain.
> 
> They are the the least tolerant segment of the population by far.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Least tolerant of what?
> 
> Tolerance towards homosexuals?  Muslim communities in general tend to be conservative on matters of sex and are among the least tolerant towards gay rights.  Opinion polls generally support that.  However, I think it's important to recognize that this level of tolerance is not a long standing British value - it's one that has gained ground slowly and painfully and much of the non-western world lags behind as do traditionally religious groups. That doesn't mean that greater tolerance isn't possible, won't happen or isn't happening now or that pressure shouldn't be applied to push for greater tolerance and recognition of homosexuals and their rights.
> 
> Muslims in Britain have zero tolerance of homosexuality says poll UK news theguardian.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The survey, the Gallup Coexist Index 2009, concluded that while European Muslims not only accepted but welcomed the freedoms, democratic institutions, justice, and human rights that characterised their societies, their perceived lack of integration was often explained by their rejection of liberal, sexual mores.
> 
> It said: "Some researchers point out that the greatest differences between Muslims and westerners lie more in eros than demos. In other words, the Muslim-west gap rests on differences in attitudes toward sexual liberalisation and gender issues rather than democracy and governance.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> On the other hand, there are other types of intolerance.  For example religious intolerance.
> 
> Some interesting perspectives on tolerance in Britain:
> 
> From June 2014:  Who Is More Likely To Be Ashamed To Be British - Scots Or Muslims
> 
> 
> 
> Scottish people are more likely than Muslims to say they are not proud to be British, a new poll has found, but the research also showed some non-religious Brits still believe that Muslims should not celebrate their religion openly.
> 
> Sixty-three per cent of British Muslims declare themselves proud to be British, while the number who do not share that pride is just 13% – less than the 17% of Scots who say the same.
> 
> According to the YouGov opinion poll on behalf of the charity Islamic Relief to mark the beginning of Ramadan, a quarter of non-Muslims believe that the holy month should not be openly celebrated in this country.
> 
> “This poll paints a very different picture of the British Muslim community from the extremist caricature that is sometimes peddled by certain politicians and in some sections of the media,” Channel 4 broadcaster Jon Snow said at the charity's fundraising dinner Thursday night.
> 
> "Seventy per cent of British Muslims say they believe in 'freedom, tolerance of others, accepting personal and social responsibility, and respecting and upholding the rule of law' – the core values of Britishness as recently defined by David Cameron – while a tiny 6% do not.”
> 
> ....The survey results come just days after thousands of young British Muslim men from the Ahmadiyya Muslim Youth Association took part in a rally to defend British values and promising to reject recruitment into radical groups.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Has Islam-bashing tarnished ‘tolerant Britain?’ *
> 
> 
> 
> Yet all is not lost. The majority of the British population reject the UKIP line with around 62% seeing it as racist or attractive to racists. British Muslims are climbing the ladder to the top in most professions increasingly engaged in British public life. But UKIP’s popularity, fleeting or not, should not be ignored and its anti-Islamic, xenophobic rhetoric properly shown up for what it is. It is a warning shot both to the Muslim community that for its own sake needs leadership and strategy to move forward and to the political establishment that has still lamentably failed to engage maturely with British Muslims and ethnic minorities. The legitimate public concerns and fears that UKIP has profited from such as the future of the EU and mass immigration must be addressed but shorn of the racist hate-fest that too many of its core membership embrace.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Quarter of young British people do not trust Muslims - BBC Newsbeat
> 
> 
> 
> Of the 1,000 young people questioned, 28% said Britain would be better off with fewer Muslims, while 44% said Muslims did not share the same values as the rest of the population.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Attitudes to Muslims British Religion in Numbers
> Another article exploring views on the aftermath of the youtube film "Innocence of Muslims".  While a lot of attention has been paid to the Muslim outrage and calls for banning the film and prosecuting the maker of it as examples of Islamic intolerance in Britain, a substantial number of British express a similar view.
> 
> Britain as a whole is an extremely diverse and tolerant society and it appears that it's Muslim population reflects that tolerance with the notable exception of attitudes towards homosexuality.  They appear to be tolerant of other religions, largely British in culture, attitudes and views towards governance.  There are always going to be examples of intolerance (cue - honor killing article) but it doesn't seem to jive with the claim of "least tolerant by far" of others and their views and religions.  The other aspect to consider is that Britain's Muslims come from a vast array of  immigrant cultures covering Asia, N Africa, Middle East and Eastern Europe - each of whom bring with them their own cultural background and have been in Britain for differing lengths of time.  Is it accurate to paint them as one homogenous group?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Are you a member of Nation of Islam?
> 
> You were calling people "crackers" in another thread.
> 
> 
> 
> Speaking of intolerance, however, 2/3 of British Muslims want criticism of Islam to be an offense punishable by law.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> How is that less tolerant than those calling for a ban on the veil in Britain? (beyond the common sense in certain occupations)?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Because calling for a ban is in defense of British culture and calling for a ban on criticism of Islam is in defense of a foreign religion that has no roots in British culture.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> In other words - you approve of intolerance towards other cultures, religions and views.  Which...is...exactly what you are accusing British Muslims of.
Click to expand...


Exactly.


----------



## Unkotare

OK, "Fun with Pictures!" time is over. Now, anything regarding the discussion at hand?


----------



## Coyote

Rikurzhen said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Rikurzhen said:
> 
> 
> 
> Can you become Japanese? Can a Muslim from Nigeria also become a Japanese person?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Are you really incapable of distinguishing citizenship from ethnicity?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Ethnicity:
> 
> British
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Not British
Click to expand...


This is a duplicate of what you posted elsewhere.

Of course you show the extremes which are hardly accurate are they?

The average Brit is hardly walking around in bowler hats and suits.  The average Brit who is a Muslim is hardly going around screaming abuse.  Nice bit of exageration that.


----------



## Rikurzhen

Coyote said:


> Rikurzhen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Rikurzhen said:
> 
> 
> 
> Can you become Japanese? Can a Muslim from Nigeria also become a Japanese person?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Are you really incapable of distinguishing citizenship from ethnicity?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Ethnicity:
> 
> British
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Not British
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> This is a duplicate of what you posted elsewhere.
> 
> Of course you show the extremes which are hardly accurate are they?
> 
> The average Brit is hardly walking around in bowler hats and suits.  The average Brit who is a Muslim is hardly going around screaming abuse.  Nice bit of exageration that.
Click to expand...



The first group was NEVER ASKED to share community with the second group. A silent coup IMPOSED the second group onto the first group.

Immigrants don't say "You know, those bowler hats and the bubbles and squeak, are sure attractive and I want to abandon my culture and faith and become British and Christian. I'm going to immigrate to Britain in order to become British because I so admire British culture."  This formulation isn't so troublesome. This formulation though is almost never seen anymore.

What we see instead is the above - the keeping of native culture and religion and co-locating that religion and culture alongside British culture in the UK. This is a recipe for war. Different peoples, different faith, different cultures, different attitudes are far more abrasive than the same people, of the same faith, the same culture and same attitudes living alongside each other.


----------



## Dogmaphobe

Coyote said:


> As to whether I am a Muslim - what does that have to do with any discussion?



 You are a representative of this board and this board asks for donations.  The honorable approach, therefore,  would be for this site to be above board rather than so sneaky in regards to the agendas of those representing it.


----------



## westwall

Dogmaphobe said:


> westwall said:
> 
> 
> 
> However, intolerance of others and their views and religions....THAT is un British.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ....which would describe a very large percentage of Muslims living in Britain.
> 
> They are the the least tolerant segment of the population by far.
Click to expand...






And I have no problem sending those asshats packing.  The problem I see coming is the moderate Muslims, who don't speak out enough, are going to be swept up in any action geared to get rid of the bad ones.


----------



## westwall

Dogmaphobe said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> As to whether I am a Muslim - what does that have to do with any discussion?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You are a representative of this board and this board asks for donations.  The honorable approach, therefore,  would be for this site to be above board rather than so sneaky in regards to the agendas of those representing it.
Click to expand...





This Board is far from "sneaky'.  Take a look at our mission statement.  The primary goal is the free exchange of ideas, no matter how warped you might think they are.  In other words, you can not get a greater expression of "Freedom of Speech" ANYWHERE, than here on this Board.


----------



## Rikurzhen

westwall said:


> Dogmaphobe said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> westwall said:
> 
> 
> 
> However, intolerance of others and their views and religions....THAT is un British.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ....which would describe a very large percentage of Muslims living in Britain.
> 
> They are the the least tolerant segment of the population by far.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And I have no problem sending those asshats packing.  The problem I see coming is the moderate Muslims, who don't speak out enough, are going to be swept up in any action geared to get rid of the bad ones.
Click to expand...


Even the moderates are a problem because a society needs to sacrifice fundamental freedoms in order to make multiculturalism work.

Imagine a world where all racial and religious minorities are removed from the UK. Now you no longer have to subject British citizens to draconian policing on speech and freedom of association. They can once again be FREE PEOPLE. The Race Relations act can be flushed down the shitter. They are free to criticize Islam without being sent to prison for doing so.


----------



## westwall

Rikurzhen said:


> westwall said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dogmaphobe said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> westwall said:
> 
> 
> 
> However, intolerance of others and their views and religions....THAT is un British.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ....which would describe a very large percentage of Muslims living in Britain.
> 
> They are the the least tolerant segment of the population by far.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And I have no problem sending those asshats packing.  The problem I see coming is the moderate Muslims, who don't speak out enough, are going to be swept up in any action geared to get rid of the bad ones.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Even the moderates are a problem because a society needs to sacrifice fundamental freedoms in order to make multiculturalism work.
> 
> Imagine a world where all racial and religious minorities are removed from the UK. Now you no longer have to subject British citizens to draconian policing on speech and freedom of association. They can once again be FREE PEOPLE. The Race Relations act can be flushed down the shitter. They are free to criticize Islam without being sent to prison for doing so.
Click to expand...




A lot of what you say is true, however the problems in the UK run much deeper than that.  The Progressive movement in the UK is deeply entrenched and I do believe it is their goal to destroy the country.  The Progressives wish for the entire world to live under a government very much in the image of Soviet Russia.

The UK has been under attack by them for decades, as is our country.  Our governmental system makes it much harder for the Progressives to enact their agenda however.


----------



## Rikurzhen

westwall said:


> Rikurzhen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> westwall said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dogmaphobe said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> westwall said:
> 
> 
> 
> However, intolerance of others and their views and religions....THAT is un British.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ....which would describe a very large percentage of Muslims living in Britain.
> 
> They are the the least tolerant segment of the population by far.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And I have no problem sending those asshats packing.  The problem I see coming is the moderate Muslims, who don't speak out enough, are going to be swept up in any action geared to get rid of the bad ones.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Even the moderates are a problem because a society needs to sacrifice fundamental freedoms in order to make multiculturalism work.
> 
> Imagine a world where all racial and religious minorities are removed from the UK. Now you no longer have to subject British citizens to draconian policing on speech and freedom of association. They can once again be FREE PEOPLE. The Race Relations act can be flushed down the shitter. They are free to criticize Islam without being sent to prison for doing so.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A lot of what you say is true, however the problems in the UK run much deeper than that.  The Progressive movement in the UK is deeply entrenched and I do believe it is their goal to destroy the country.  The Progressives wish for the entire world to live under a government very much in the image of Soviet Russia.
> 
> The UK has been under attack by them for decades, as is our country.  Our governmental system makes it much harder for the Progressives to enact their agenda however.
Click to expand...


I was over in the "Canada has a surplus" thread and followed the link to the CBC report and there was another report on the sidebar "ISIS threat could mute objections to expanded anti-terror laws, critics fear."

Public Safety Minister Steven Blaney gave Canadians a preview last week of his bid to boost the powers of Canada's spy agency, the Canadian Security Intelligence Service. . . .

But Blaney, who was joined on Thursday by senior officials from both CSIS and the RCMP, shared the highlights, including new provisions to allow the agency to track "homegrown" extremists abroad and extend witness protection to confidential sources.

"Now, more than ever, a radical individual or group of motivated extremists with access to technology can do significant harm to Canada from thousands of miles away," he told reporters.​
This is the misery that multiculturalism brings. 

This Canadian isn't going over to fight for ISIS:






It's the Canadian version of this guy that Canadians have to worry about:






All of the NSA intrusions on Americans came about BECAUSE OF MULTICULTURALISM.

Every freedom has to be jettisoned in order to make multiculturalism work. Governments need to surveil their own people because the people are now so fractured that they're no longer all held together by common beliefs, attitudes, histories, values, etc.


----------



## westwall

Rikurzhen said:


> westwall said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Rikurzhen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> westwall said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dogmaphobe said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> westwall said:
> 
> 
> 
> However, intolerance of others and their views and religions....THAT is un British.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ....which would describe a very large percentage of Muslims living in Britain.
> 
> They are the the least tolerant segment of the population by far.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And I have no problem sending those asshats packing.  The problem I see coming is the moderate Muslims, who don't speak out enough, are going to be swept up in any action geared to get rid of the bad ones.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Even the moderates are a problem because a society needs to sacrifice fundamental freedoms in order to make multiculturalism work.
> 
> Imagine a world where all racial and religious minorities are removed from the UK. Now you no longer have to subject British citizens to draconian policing on speech and freedom of association. They can once again be FREE PEOPLE. The Race Relations act can be flushed down the shitter. They are free to criticize Islam without being sent to prison for doing so.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A lot of what you say is true, however the problems in the UK run much deeper than that.  The Progressive movement in the UK is deeply entrenched and I do believe it is their goal to destroy the country.  The Progressives wish for the entire world to live under a government very much in the image of Soviet Russia.
> 
> The UK has been under attack by them for decades, as is our country.  Our governmental system makes it much harder for the Progressives to enact their agenda however.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I was over in the "Canada has a surplus" thread and followed the link to the CBC report and there was another report on the sidebar "ISIS threat could mute objections to expanded anti-terror laws, critics fear."
> 
> Public Safety Minister Steven Blaney gave Canadians a preview last week of his bid to boost the powers of Canada's spy agency, the Canadian Security Intelligence Service. . . .
> 
> But Blaney, who was joined on Thursday by senior officials from both CSIS and the RCMP, shared the highlights, including new provisions to allow the agency to track "homegrown" extremists abroad and extend witness protection to confidential sources.
> 
> "Now, more than ever, a radical individual or group of motivated extremists with access to technology can do significant harm to Canada from thousands of miles away," he told reporters.​
> This is the misery that multiculturalism brings.
> 
> This Canadian isn't going over to fight for ISIS:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's the Canadian version of this guy that Canadians have to worry about:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> All of the NSA intrusions on Americans came about BECAUSE OF MULTICULTURALISM.
> 
> Every freedom has to be jettisoned in order to make multiculturalism work. Governments need to surveil their own people because the people are now so fractured that they're no longer all held together by common beliefs, attitudes, histories, values, etc.
Click to expand...







Multiculteralism is not to blame.  The governments efforts to control discussion about it, and the control of the radical elements is!  Had the government been doing its job, the number of these radicals would be very small.  However the government has used these people to further their own Progressive ideals.  That is the underlying problem.  It isn't multiculturalism, it is Progressivism.


----------



## Rikurzhen

westwall said:


> Rikurzhen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> westwall said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Rikurzhen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> westwall said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dogmaphobe said:
> 
> 
> 
> ....which would describe a very large percentage of Muslims living in Britain.
> 
> They are the the least tolerant segment of the population by far.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And I have no problem sending those asshats packing.  The problem I see coming is the moderate Muslims, who don't speak out enough, are going to be swept up in any action geared to get rid of the bad ones.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Even the moderates are a problem because a society needs to sacrifice fundamental freedoms in order to make multiculturalism work.
> 
> Imagine a world where all racial and religious minorities are removed from the UK. Now you no longer have to subject British citizens to draconian policing on speech and freedom of association. They can once again be FREE PEOPLE. The Race Relations act can be flushed down the shitter. They are free to criticize Islam without being sent to prison for doing so.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A lot of what you say is true, however the problems in the UK run much deeper than that.  The Progressive movement in the UK is deeply entrenched and I do believe it is their goal to destroy the country.  The Progressives wish for the entire world to live under a government very much in the image of Soviet Russia.
> 
> The UK has been under attack by them for decades, as is our country.  Our governmental system makes it much harder for the Progressives to enact their agenda however.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I was over in the "Canada has a surplus" thread and followed the link to the CBC report and there was another report on the sidebar "ISIS threat could mute objections to expanded anti-terror laws, critics fear."
> 
> Public Safety Minister Steven Blaney gave Canadians a preview last week of his bid to boost the powers of Canada's spy agency, the Canadian Security Intelligence Service. . . .
> 
> But Blaney, who was joined on Thursday by senior officials from both CSIS and the RCMP, shared the highlights, including new provisions to allow the agency to track "homegrown" extremists abroad and extend witness protection to confidential sources.
> 
> "Now, more than ever, a radical individual or group of motivated extremists with access to technology can do significant harm to Canada from thousands of miles away," he told reporters.​
> This is the misery that multiculturalism brings.
> 
> This Canadian isn't going over to fight for ISIS:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's the Canadian version of this guy that Canadians have to worry about:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> All of the NSA intrusions on Americans came about BECAUSE OF MULTICULTURALISM.
> 
> Every freedom has to be jettisoned in order to make multiculturalism work. Governments need to surveil their own people because the people are now so fractured that they're no longer all held together by common beliefs, attitudes, histories, values, etc.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Multiculteralism is not to blame.  The governments efforts to control discussion about it, and the control of the radical elements is!  Had the government been doing its job, the number of these radicals would be very small.  However the government has used these people to further their own Progressive ideals.  That is the underlying problem.  It isn't multiculturalism, it is Progressivism.
Click to expand...


Multiculturalism is like a cancer. The government's efforts in response to the cancer are the chemotherapy, the radiation treatments and the aggressive surgery needed to try to keep the body politic healthy and functioning.

At no time in the history of humanity has any multicultural society been more stable than a monocultural society. Divide and Conquer has been a strategy known for millennia.


----------



## Unkotare

Rikurzhen said:


> What we see instead is the above - the keeping of native culture and religion and co-locating that religion and culture alongside British culture in the UK. This is a recipe for war. Different peoples, different faith, different cultures, different attitudes are far more abrasive than the same people, of the same faith, the same culture and same attitudes living alongside each other.




What is your nationality?


----------



## westwall

Rikurzhen said:


> westwall said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Rikurzhen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> westwall said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Rikurzhen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> westwall said:
> 
> 
> 
> And I have no problem sending those asshats packing.  The problem I see coming is the moderate Muslims, who don't speak out enough, are going to be swept up in any action geared to get rid of the bad ones.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Even the moderates are a problem because a society needs to sacrifice fundamental freedoms in order to make multiculturalism work.
> 
> Imagine a world where all racial and religious minorities are removed from the UK. Now you no longer have to subject British citizens to draconian policing on speech and freedom of association. They can once again be FREE PEOPLE. The Race Relations act can be flushed down the shitter. They are free to criticize Islam without being sent to prison for doing so.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A lot of what you say is true, however the problems in the UK run much deeper than that.  The Progressive movement in the UK is deeply entrenched and I do believe it is their goal to destroy the country.  The Progressives wish for the entire world to live under a government very much in the image of Soviet Russia.
> 
> The UK has been under attack by them for decades, as is our country.  Our governmental system makes it much harder for the Progressives to enact their agenda however.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I was over in the "Canada has a surplus" thread and followed the link to the CBC report and there was another report on the sidebar "ISIS threat could mute objections to expanded anti-terror laws, critics fear."
> 
> Public Safety Minister Steven Blaney gave Canadians a preview last week of his bid to boost the powers of Canada's spy agency, the Canadian Security Intelligence Service. . . .
> 
> But Blaney, who was joined on Thursday by senior officials from both CSIS and the RCMP, shared the highlights, including new provisions to allow the agency to track "homegrown" extremists abroad and extend witness protection to confidential sources.
> 
> "Now, more than ever, a radical individual or group of motivated extremists with access to technology can do significant harm to Canada from thousands of miles away," he told reporters.​
> This is the misery that multiculturalism brings.
> 
> This Canadian isn't going over to fight for ISIS:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's the Canadian version of this guy that Canadians have to worry about:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> All of the NSA intrusions on Americans came about BECAUSE OF MULTICULTURALISM.
> 
> Every freedom has to be jettisoned in order to make multiculturalism work. Governments need to surveil their own people because the people are now so fractured that they're no longer all held together by common beliefs, attitudes, histories, values, etc.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Multiculteralism is not to blame.  The governments efforts to control discussion about it, and the control of the radical elements is!  Had the government been doing its job, the number of these radicals would be very small.  However the government has used these people to further their own Progressive ideals.  That is the underlying problem.  It isn't multiculturalism, it is Progressivism.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Multiculturalism is like a cancer. The government's efforts in response to the cancer are the chemotherapy, the radiation treatments and the aggressive surgery needed to try to keep the body politic healthy and functioning.
> 
> At no time in the history of humanity has any multicultural society been more stable than a monocultural society. Divide and Conquer has been a strategy known for millennia.
Click to expand...






Once again, I disagree with you.  Progressivism is the cancer.  Multiculteralism *corrupted* is the tool.


----------



## Unkotare

Rikurzhen said:


> At no time in the history of humanity has any multicultural society been more stable than a monocultural [sic] society. Divide and Conquer has been a strategy known for millennia [sic].




Any serious discussion requires participants to understand the terms they are using.


----------



## westwall

Unkotare said:


> Rikurzhen said:
> 
> 
> 
> What we see instead is the above - the keeping of native culture and religion and co-locating that religion and culture alongside British culture in the UK. This is a recipe for war. Different peoples, different faith, different cultures, different attitudes are far more abrasive than the same people, of the same faith, the same culture and same attitudes living alongside each other.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What is your nationality?
Click to expand...




It makes no difference..  We are discussing ideas, and philosophies, that transcend national boundaries.


----------



## Rikurzhen

westwall said:


> Rikurzhen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> westwall said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Rikurzhen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> westwall said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Rikurzhen said:
> 
> 
> 
> Even the moderates are a problem because a society needs to sacrifice fundamental freedoms in order to make multiculturalism work.
> 
> Imagine a world where all racial and religious minorities are removed from the UK. Now you no longer have to subject British citizens to draconian policing on speech and freedom of association. They can once again be FREE PEOPLE. The Race Relations act can be flushed down the shitter. They are free to criticize Islam without being sent to prison for doing so.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A lot of what you say is true, however the problems in the UK run much deeper than that.  The Progressive movement in the UK is deeply entrenched and I do believe it is their goal to destroy the country.  The Progressives wish for the entire world to live under a government very much in the image of Soviet Russia.
> 
> The UK has been under attack by them for decades, as is our country.  Our governmental system makes it much harder for the Progressives to enact their agenda however.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I was over in the "Canada has a surplus" thread and followed the link to the CBC report and there was another report on the sidebar "ISIS threat could mute objections to expanded anti-terror laws, critics fear."
> 
> Public Safety Minister Steven Blaney gave Canadians a preview last week of his bid to boost the powers of Canada's spy agency, the Canadian Security Intelligence Service. . . .
> 
> But Blaney, who was joined on Thursday by senior officials from both CSIS and the RCMP, shared the highlights, including new provisions to allow the agency to track "homegrown" extremists abroad and extend witness protection to confidential sources.
> 
> "Now, more than ever, a radical individual or group of motivated extremists with access to technology can do significant harm to Canada from thousands of miles away," he told reporters.​
> This is the misery that multiculturalism brings.
> 
> This Canadian isn't going over to fight for ISIS:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's the Canadian version of this guy that Canadians have to worry about:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> All of the NSA intrusions on Americans came about BECAUSE OF MULTICULTURALISM.
> 
> Every freedom has to be jettisoned in order to make multiculturalism work. Governments need to surveil their own people because the people are now so fractured that they're no longer all held together by common beliefs, attitudes, histories, values, etc.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Multiculteralism is not to blame.  The governments efforts to control discussion about it, and the control of the radical elements is!  Had the government been doing its job, the number of these radicals would be very small.  However the government has used these people to further their own Progressive ideals.  That is the underlying problem.  It isn't multiculturalism, it is Progressivism.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Multiculturalism is like a cancer. The government's efforts in response to the cancer are the chemotherapy, the radiation treatments and the aggressive surgery needed to try to keep the body politic healthy and functioning.
> 
> At no time in the history of humanity has any multicultural society been more stable than a monocultural society. Divide and Conquer has been a strategy known for millennia.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Once again, I disagree with you.  Progressivism is the cancer.  Multiculteralism *corrupted* is the tool.
Click to expand...


From the Canadian article:

Green Party Leader Elizabeth May said she's *"very concerned with the steady erosion of civil liberties"* in Canada — beginning with anti-terrorism measures introduced by Prime Minister Jean Chrétien's Liberal government in the wake of the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks. . . .

Independent MP Brent Rathgeber agrees that the current international crisis and* threat of homegrown terror* "will provide cover for the government to expand the roles of CSEC and CSIS, and what they share with the Five Eyes."​That legislation is coming from Canada's *Conservative *(NOT Progressive) Government and it's not focused on guys like this:






No Muslims in Canada and no need for erosion of civil liberties or to be concerned about homegrown terror cells.


----------



## Unkotare

westwall said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Rikurzhen said:
> 
> 
> 
> What we see instead is the above - the keeping of native culture and religion and co-locating that religion and culture alongside British culture in the UK. This is a recipe for war. Different peoples, different faith, different cultures, different attitudes are far more abrasive than the same people, of the same faith, the same culture and same attitudes living alongside each other.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What is your nationality?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It makes no difference..  We are discussing ideas, and philosophies, that transcend national boundaries.
Click to expand...



It does make a difference in terms of what one may be expected to understand or not, and in what context certain comments are to be taken.


----------



## westwall

Rikurzhen said:


> westwall said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Rikurzhen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> westwall said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Rikurzhen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> westwall said:
> 
> 
> 
> A lot of what you say is true, however the problems in the UK run much deeper than that.  The Progressive movement in the UK is deeply entrenched and I do believe it is their goal to destroy the country.  The Progressives wish for the entire world to live under a government very much in the image of Soviet Russia.
> 
> The UK has been under attack by them for decades, as is our country.  Our governmental system makes it much harder for the Progressives to enact their agenda however.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I was over in the "Canada has a surplus" thread and followed the link to the CBC report and there was another report on the sidebar "ISIS threat could mute objections to expanded anti-terror laws, critics fear."
> 
> Public Safety Minister Steven Blaney gave Canadians a preview last week of his bid to boost the powers of Canada's spy agency, the Canadian Security Intelligence Service. . . .
> 
> But Blaney, who was joined on Thursday by senior officials from both CSIS and the RCMP, shared the highlights, including new provisions to allow the agency to track "homegrown" extremists abroad and extend witness protection to confidential sources.
> 
> "Now, more than ever, a radical individual or group of motivated extremists with access to technology can do significant harm to Canada from thousands of miles away," he told reporters.​
> This is the misery that multiculturalism brings.
> 
> This Canadian isn't going over to fight for ISIS:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's the Canadian version of this guy that Canadians have to worry about:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> All of the NSA intrusions on Americans came about BECAUSE OF MULTICULTURALISM.
> 
> Every freedom has to be jettisoned in order to make multiculturalism work. Governments need to surveil their own people because the people are now so fractured that they're no longer all held together by common beliefs, attitudes, histories, values, etc.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Multiculteralism is not to blame.  The governments efforts to control discussion about it, and the control of the radical elements is!  Had the government been doing its job, the number of these radicals would be very small.  However the government has used these people to further their own Progressive ideals.  That is the underlying problem.  It isn't multiculturalism, it is Progressivism.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Multiculturalism is like a cancer. The government's efforts in response to the cancer are the chemotherapy, the radiation treatments and the aggressive surgery needed to try to keep the body politic healthy and functioning.
> 
> At no time in the history of humanity has any multicultural society been more stable than a monocultural society. Divide and Conquer has been a strategy known for millennia.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Once again, I disagree with you.  Progressivism is the cancer.  Multiculteralism *corrupted* is the tool.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> From the Canadian article:
> 
> Green Party Leader Elizabeth May said she's *"very concerned with the steady erosion of civil liberties"* in Canada — beginning with anti-terrorism measures introduced by Prime Minister Jean Chrétien's Liberal government in the wake of the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks. . . .
> 
> Independent MP Brent Rathgeber agrees that the current international crisis and* threat of homegrown terror* "will provide cover for the government to expand the roles of CSEC and CSIS, and what they share with the Five Eyes."​That legislation is coming from Canada's *Conservative *(NOT Progressive) Government and it's not focused on guys like this:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No Muslims in Canada and no need for erosion of civil liberties or to be concerned about homegrown terror cells.
Click to expand...






Divide and conquer.  The best way to destroy a country is to get ALL sides at war with each other.  Multiculteralism doesn't DO that.  Multiculteralism allows people to interact with each other so they can see that those other guys over there are people..."just like me".  It is hard to get one group to attack another group when the first group understands that they are the same.

Thus Progressives drive wedges between the groups.  They are also adept at hiding their goals and at confusing people by changing the meanings of phrases and names.  Your heart is in the right place.  You just don't have the experience to understand what is going on. 

Radical Muslims are a tool being used by the Progressives to make you hate anything that is not "white and British", or whatever your country of origin is.  They are being used to make you fear anything that is not you.  Thus, they can manipulate you into fighting the other groups.   When they can get all the groups fighting they can swoop in and take over. 

Their tool for regaining control is TOTALITARIANISM.  And totalitarianism _asked for, ("please, come save us from the meanies") _is the most difficult to escape from.


----------



## westwall

Unkotare said:


> westwall said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Rikurzhen said:
> 
> 
> 
> What we see instead is the above - the keeping of native culture and religion and co-locating that religion and culture alongside British culture in the UK. This is a recipe for war. Different peoples, different faith, different cultures, different attitudes are far more abrasive than the same people, of the same faith, the same culture and same attitudes living alongside each other.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What is your nationality?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It makes no difference..  We are discussing ideas, and philosophies, that transcend national boundaries.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> It does make a difference in terms of what one may be expected to understand or not, and in what context certain comments are to be taken.
Click to expand...





I disagree.  Please see my post above.  Nationality is the enemy of the Progressives.


----------



## Rikurzhen

westwall said:


> Divide and conquer.  The best way to destroy a country is to get ALL sides at war with each other.  Multiculteralism doesn't DO that.  Multiculteralism allows people to interact with each other so they can see that those other guys over there are people...*"just like me"*.  It is hard to get one group to attack another group when the first group understands that t*hey are the same.*



Do you kill people who leave your faith? Do you have your daughter's clitoris circumcised? Do you kill your daughter if she brings dishonor onto your family?


----------



## Where_r_my_Keys

Figaro said:


> The Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR) today launched Islamophobia.org, the latest element in the Muslim civil rights organization's work to monitor and challenge the growing anti-Muslim bigotry in American society.
> 
> CAIR's Islamophobia.org site presents detailed profiles of a number of individuals and institutions involved in the American Islamophobia network.
> 
> You may follow the link to get rid of your Islamophobia
> Islamophobia is closed-minded prejudice against or hatred of Islam and Muslims. - Islamophobia




Phobia: an extreme or irrational fear of or aversion to something.

Islam: Murderous political machine developed by a sociopathic mass-murdering pedophile in the 7th Century; scourge on the buttocks of humanity; presently engaged in and wholly responsible for 100% of the wars currently being waged on this planet.  

Huh...   Since Islam is a dangerous, tyrannical political cult, designed as such from foundation... and since the purpose of the human being is to live free toward the pursuit of the fulfillment of its life, it therefore follows that the soundly reasoned understanding that Islam is a clear and present threat to one's life, that the rejection of such is perfectly reasonable, therefore not a potential 'phobia'.

It further follows that the projection that the rejection of Islam is irrational, is, in and of itself, irrational and bears out the reasonable conclusion that Islam is a threat and should be rejected by all culture's which desire to remain viable... . 

Simple stuff.


----------



## Where_r_my_Keys

Rikurzhen said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Figaro said:
> 
> 
> 
> The Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR) today launched Islamophobia.org, the latest element in the Muslim civil rights organization's work to monitor and challenge the growing anti-Muslim bigotry in American society.
> 
> CAIR's Islamophobia.org site presents detailed profiles of a number of individuals and institutions involved in the American Islamophobia network.
> 
> You may follow the link to get rid of your Islamophobia
> Islamophobia is closed-minded prejudice against or hatred of Islam and Muslims. - Islamophobia
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Good for CAIR.  Southern Policy Law Center has a list of anti-Muslim hate groups.  Quite a bit of overlap.  It's about time folks started challenging these charlatans in the open.  Jews and Blacks are well ahead of the curve in exposing anti-semites and racists masquerading as "legitimately concerned" citizens and patriots.
> 
> http://www.splcenter.org/node/3502/activegroups
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Why are you linking to a hate group?
Click to expand...



Islam is a hate group... Cair is Islamic... therefore Cair is a hate group.


----------



## Unkotare

Where_r_my_Keys said:


> Phobia: an extreme or irrational fear of or aversion to something.
> 
> Islam: Murderous political machine developed by a sociopathic mass-murdering pedophile in the 7th Century; scourge on the buttocks of humanity; presently engaged in and wholly responsible for 100% of the wars currently being waged on this planet.
> 
> Huh...   Since Islam is a dangerous, tyrannical political cult, designed as such from foundation... and since the purpose of the human being is to live free toward the pursuit of the fulfillment of its life, it therefore follows that the soundly reasoned understanding that Islam is a clear and present threat to one's life, that the rejection of such is perfectly reasonable, therefore not a potential 'phobia'.
> 
> It further follows that the projection that the rejection of Islam is irrational, is, in and of itself, irrational and bears out the reasonable conclusion that Islam is a threat and should be rejected by all culture's which desire to remain viable... .
> 
> Simple stuff.




Simpler stuff:  Do you or have you ever had any friends, friendly acquaintances, co-workers, or neighbors who were Muslim? Have you ever in your life spent so much as two hours at one stretch talking to a Muslim person?


----------



## Unkotare

westwall said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> westwall said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Rikurzhen said:
> 
> 
> 
> What we see instead is the above - the keeping of native culture and religion and co-locating that religion and culture alongside British culture in the UK. This is a recipe for war. Different peoples, different faith, different cultures, different attitudes are far more abrasive than the same people, of the same faith, the same culture and same attitudes living alongside each other.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What is your nationality?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It makes no difference..  We are discussing ideas, and philosophies, that transcend national boundaries.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> It does make a difference in terms of what one may be expected to understand or not, and in what context certain comments are to be taken.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I disagree.  Please see my post above.  Nationality is the enemy of the Progressives.
Click to expand...



You're wrong, and I believe I mentioned nationality.


----------



## Where_r_my_Keys

Unkotare said:


> Where_r_my_Keys said:
> 
> 
> 
> Phobia: an extreme or irrational fear of or aversion to something.
> 
> Islam: Murderous political machine developed by a sociopathic mass-murdering pedophile in the 7th Century; scourge on the buttocks of humanity; presently engaged in and wholly responsible for 100% of the wars currently being waged on this planet.
> 
> Huh...   Since Islam is a dangerous, tyrannical political cult, designed as such from foundation... and since the purpose of the human being is to live free toward the pursuit of the fulfillment of its life, it therefore follows that the soundly reasoned understanding that Islam is a clear and present threat to one's life, that the rejection of such is perfectly reasonable, therefore not a potential 'phobia'.
> 
> It further follows that the projection that the rejection of Islam is irrational, is, in and of itself, irrational and bears out the reasonable conclusion that Islam is a threat and should be rejected by all culture's which desire to remain viable... .
> 
> Simple stuff.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Simpler stuff:  Do you or have you ever had any friends, friendly acquaintances, co-workers, or neighbors who were Muslim? Have you ever in your life spent so much as two hours at one stretch talking to a Muslim person?
Click to expand...



Oh... so you're needing to conflate the least common denominator of a cult, which was founded as a mass-murdering political machine and is presently engaged and wholly responsible for EVERY WAR PRESENTLY IN PROCESS ON THE PLANET, as a means to project the less threatening traits of the individual Muslim, so as to distract from the incontestable threat from the Islamic whole?


LOL!  Adorable... .

But to answer your question: yes, I've personally known many Muslims and they ran the gamut from total douche to douche-lites... with none of them being what I would consider 'decent human beings'.


----------



## Unkotare

If everyone you've every met is an 'asshole,' guess what that really means?


----------



## Where_r_my_Keys

westwall said:


> Divide and conquer.  The best way to destroy a country is to get ALL sides at war with each other.  Multiculteralism doesn't DO that.




Nonsense... that is PRECISELY what multiculturalism (Cultural Relativism) does... .


----------



## Unkotare

Where_r_my_Keys said:


> wholly responsible for EVERY WAR PRESENTLY IN PROCESS ON THE PLANET, .




You want to think about that one again...


----------



## Where_r_my_Keys

Unkotare said:


> If everyone you've every met is an 'asshole,' guess what that really means?



So for your argument to stand, 'everyone' must equal Islam?

LOL!  Now how precious is THAT?


----------



## Unkotare

Where_r_my_Keys said:


> But to answer your question: yes, I've personally known many Muslims ...




It is a favor to you that I in no way believe that claim.


----------



## Where_r_my_Keys

Unkotare said:


> Where_r_my_Keys said:
> 
> 
> 
> wholly responsible for EVERY WAR PRESENTLY IN PROCESS ON THE PLANET, .
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You want to think about that one again...
Click to expand...


Oh, so that's wrong?

I see... then you'll have no problem pointing wars presently in play on the planet which do not involve Islam and where Islam?

Can't wait...


----------



## Unkotare

Where_r_my_Keys said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> If everyone you've every met is an 'asshole,' guess what that really means?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So for your argument to stand, 'everyone' must equal Islam?
Click to expand...



You seem to have missed the point. Oh well, each to their capacity...


----------



## Where_r_my_Keys

Unkotare said:


> Where_r_my_Keys said:
> 
> 
> 
> But to answer your question: yes, I've personally known many Muslims ...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It is a favor to you that I in no way believe that claim.
Click to expand...


What is irrelevant is what you believe...  I'm only concerned with your means to sustain what you CLAIM!  So far, you're down 0 for 3 ... Oops there's another fail.  Make that 0 for 4.


----------



## Unkotare

Where_r_my_Keys said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Where_r_my_Keys said:
> 
> 
> 
> wholly responsible for EVERY WAR PRESENTLY IN PROCESS ON THE PLANET, .
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You want to think about that one again...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Oh, so that's wrong?
> 
> I see... then you'll have no problem pointing wars presently in play on the planet which do not involve Islam and where Islam?
> 
> Can't wait...
Click to expand...


To be as gentle as possible and save you the trouble of excessive spin, I'll just point to one that you might not understand: The Korean War.


----------



## Unkotare

Where_r_my_Keys said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Where_r_my_Keys said:
> 
> 
> 
> But to answer your question: yes, I've personally known many Muslims ...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It is a favor to you that I in no way believe that claim.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> What is irrelevant is what you believe... .
Click to expand...



Thank you for conceding the point.


----------



## Where_r_my_Keys

Unkotare said:


> Where_r_my_Keys said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Where_r_my_Keys said:
> 
> 
> 
> wholly responsible for EVERY WAR PRESENTLY IN PROCESS ON THE PLANET, .
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You want to think about that one again...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Oh, so that's wrong?
> 
> I see... then you'll have no problem pointing wars presently in play on the planet which do not involve Islam and where Islam?
> 
> Can't wait...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> To be as gentle as possible and save you the trouble of excessive spin, I'll just point to one that you might not understand: The Korean War.
Click to expand...


There's no such thing as the Korean War.  You're speaking of the on-going dispute between the communist North Koreans and the soundly reasoned, sustainable culture of South Korea... who are presently at a 60 year old stand off. 

But if it helps, Islam is a religious extension of secularism (Left-think), which is why you, as a secularist... are in here wetting your pant, over a cult which would erase you for nothing more than your public professions regarding the normalization of sexual abnormality... and this despite the disproportional instances of sexual abnormality common to Islam.


----------



## Where_r_my_Keys

Unkotare said:


> Where_r_my_Keys said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Where_r_my_Keys said:
> 
> 
> 
> But to answer your question: yes, I've personally known many Muslims ...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It is a favor to you that I in no way believe that claim.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> What is irrelevant is what you believe... .
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Thank you for conceding the point.
Click to expand...



XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX CDZ violation


----------



## westwall

Rikurzhen said:


> westwall said:
> 
> 
> 
> Divide and conquer.  The best way to destroy a country is to get ALL sides at war with each other.  Multiculteralism doesn't DO that.  Multiculteralism allows people to interact with each other so they can see that those other guys over there are people...*"just like me"*.  It is hard to get one group to attack another group when the first group understands that t*hey are the same.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Do you kill people who leave your faith? Do you have your daughter's clitoris circumcised? Do you kill your daughter if she brings dishonor onto your family?
Click to expand...






Of course not.  But you're missing the forest for the trees.


----------



## Unkotare

Where_r_my_Keys said:


> There's no such thing as the Korean War.  ...




Of course there is.


----------



## Unkotare

Where_r_my_Keys said:


> which is why you, as a secularist... ...




Hang on. When did I ever claim to be that?


----------



## Unkotare

Where_r_my_Keys said:


> your public professions regarding the normalization of sexual abnormality... ...




What on earth are you talking about?


----------



## Unkotare

Where_r_my_Keys said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Where_r_my_Keys said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Where_r_my_Keys said:
> 
> 
> 
> But to answer your question: yes, I've personally known many Muslims ...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It is a favor to you that I in no way believe that claim.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> What is irrelevant is what you believe... .
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Thank you for conceding the point.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> So you truly are delusional?   LOL How positively predictable.
Click to expand...



If you are going to lie, at least do so with greater skill.


----------



## westwall

Unkotare said:


> westwall said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> westwall said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Rikurzhen said:
> 
> 
> 
> What we see instead is the above - the keeping of native culture and religion and co-locating that religion and culture alongside British culture in the UK. This is a recipe for war. Different peoples, different faith, different cultures, different attitudes are far more abrasive than the same people, of the same faith, the same culture and same attitudes living alongside each other.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What is your nationality?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It makes no difference..  We are discussing ideas, and philosophies, that transcend national boundaries.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> It does make a difference in terms of what one may be expected to understand or not, and in what context certain comments are to be taken.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I disagree.  Please see my post above.  Nationality is the enemy of the Progressives.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> You're wrong, and I believe I mentioned nationality.
Click to expand...






You did mention nationality.  Progressives don't want "nations".  They want one world government that they control and they wish to kill a whole lot of people in the bargain.  They are working towards this goal by dividing everyone so that they can make them war against each other.  It's simple and is occurring before your eyes because they have so baffled everyone that no one looks at the underlying root cause of the ongoing attacks. 

They can only see that which directly involves them.


----------



## Where_r_my_Keys

Unkotare said:


> Where_r_my_Keys said:
> 
> 
> 
> There's no such thing as the Korean War.  ...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Of course there is.
Click to expand...


No.. there's not.  

 But even if there were... the Left would axiomatically be engaged there, therefore, by extension, Islam would be engaged, as well.


----------



## beagle9

Unkotare said:


> Rikurzhen said:
> 
> 
> 
> Can you become Japanese? Can a Muslim from Nigeria also become a Japanese person?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Are you really incapable of distinguishing citizenship from ethnicity?
Click to expand...

I guess what he meant was how it is here in the way that some blacks like to be referred to as African Americans, and so he was wondering if an American could become a Japanese citizen in that way, and then the American wanting to be called an "American Japanese" while living in that country as a new citizen who is considered a Japanese ? Do Japanese take on new citizens who are from all parts of the world like we do, and then do they refer to them as hyphenated Japanese citizens ?  How about the Chinese or others in the world the same ?


----------



## Rikurzhen

westwall said:


> Rikurzhen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> westwall said:
> 
> 
> 
> Divide and conquer.  The best way to destroy a country is to get ALL sides at war with each other.  Multiculteralism doesn't DO that.  Multiculteralism allows people to interact with each other so they can see that those other guys over there are people...*"just like me"*.  It is hard to get one group to attack another group when the first group understands that t*hey are the same.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Do you kill people who leave your faith? Do you have your daughter's clitoris circumcised? Do you kill your daughter if she brings dishonor onto your family?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Of course not.  But you're missing the forest for the trees.
Click to expand...


Multiculturalism is a nonsensical notion. It can't exist without government coercion. That's where your progressive Totalitarian measures come into play.

Cultures come into conflict because of differing behavior and beliefs of the members. THEY can't be just like YOU because THEY are from a different culture than YOU. Yellow can't be Purple because they're different.

There's tons of research on how corrosive diversity is to community values.


----------



## Where_r_my_Keys

westwall said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> westwall said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> westwall said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> What is your nationality?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It makes no difference..  We are discussing ideas, and philosophies, that transcend national boundaries.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> It does make a difference in terms of what one may be expected to understand or not, and in what context certain comments are to be taken.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I disagree.  Please see my post above.  Nationality is the enemy of the Progressives.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> You're wrong, and I believe I mentioned nationality.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You did mention nationality.  Progressives don't want "nations".  They want one world government that they control and they wish to kill a whole lot of people in the bargain.  They are working towards this goal by dividing everyone so that they can make them war against each other.  It's simple and is occurring before your eyes because they have so baffled everyone that no one looks at the underlying root cause of the ongoing attacks.
> 
> They can only see that which directly involves them.
Click to expand...


At the end of the day, Left-think, in ALL of its innumerable facets, is merely the intellectual expression of Old Testament Evil.


----------



## westwall

Where_r_my_Keys said:


> westwall said:
> 
> 
> 
> Divide and conquer.  The best way to destroy a country is to get ALL sides at war with each other.  Multiculteralism doesn't DO that.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Nonsense... that is PRECISELY what multiculturalism (Cultural Relativism) does... .
Click to expand...






Multiculteralism is NOT cultural relativism.  Multiculteralism is the acknowledgement that other cultures exist, here they are, here is what they do, and we can all live together so long as we all follow the laws of this land that we all live in.

Cultural relativism is "here are these other cultures, don't pay attention to the fact that they violate the laws of this country they are just doing what they normally do in theirs."

See the difference?


----------



## Where_r_my_Keys

Rikurzhen said:


> Multiculturalism is a nonsensical notion. It can't exist without government coercion. That's where your progressive Totalitarian measures come into play.
> 
> Cultures come into conflict because of differing behavior and beliefs of the members. THEY can't be just like YOU because THEY are from a different culture than YOU. Yellow can't be Purple because they're different.
> 
> There's tons of research on how corrosive diversity is to community values.



Well said...  The principle that diversity is a strength, is the misnomer upon which the Cultural Relativist rests.  

The problem they have is that in the analogy of steel, where dissimilar elements exist to form a stronger metal, the elements bond to one another.  

Multiculturalism undermines cohesion... . Which is how we can know that Multiculturalism is a lie, just as are every other notions which come from the irrational species of reasoning OKA: Left-think.


----------



## Unkotare

westwall said:


> You did mention nationality.  Progressives don't want "nations".  ....




I said nothing about what progressives "want" regarding nationality. I pointed out that a participant in this discussion did not seem to grasp the distinction between nationality and ethnicity.


----------



## Unkotare

Where_r_my_Keys said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Where_r_my_Keys said:
> 
> 
> 
> There's no such thing as the Korean War.  ...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Of course there is.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No.. there's not. ...
Click to expand...



Yes, there really is. Take time to educate yourself on the matter. It's not a secret.


----------



## Rikurzhen

westwall said:


> Where_r_my_Keys said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> westwall said:
> 
> 
> 
> Divide and conquer.  The best way to destroy a country is to get ALL sides at war with each other.  Multiculteralism doesn't DO that.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Nonsense... that is PRECISELY what multiculturalism (Cultural Relativism) does... .
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Multiculteralism is NOT cultural relativism.  Multiculteralism is the acknowledgement that other cultures exist, here they are, here is what they do, and we can all live together so long as we all follow the laws of this land that we all live in.
Click to expand...


Laws are culturally determined. One group has clitoral circumcision as a deeply ingrained cultural tradition and it is legal in their homeland, another group finds the practice abhorrent and makes it illegal. The latter group must now be tolerant to the former group, to respect their ways and traditions.

The law is not culturally neutral.


----------



## Where_r_my_Keys

westwall said:


> Where_r_my_Keys said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> westwall said:
> 
> 
> 
> Divide and conquer.  The best way to destroy a country is to get ALL sides at war with each other.  Multiculteralism doesn't DO that.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Nonsense... that is PRECISELY what multiculturalism (Cultural Relativism) does... .
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Multiculteralism is NOT cultural relativism.  Multiculteralism is the acknowledgement that other cultures exist, here they are, here is what they do, and we can all live together so long as we all follow the laws of this land that we all live in.
> 
> Cultural relativism is "here are these other cultures, don't pay attention to the fact that they violate the laws of this country they are just doing what they normally do in theirs."
> 
> See the difference?
Click to expand...


I see that your argument is a vacuous train-wreck.  Multiculturalism equates all cultures, demanding that unsound cultures be accepted as sustainable.  It's a deceitful rationalization, fraudulently advanced as a means to influence the ignorant.


----------



## Unkotare

Where_r_my_Keys said:


> But even if there were... the Left would axiomatically be engaged there, therefore, by extension, Islam would be engaged, as well.




I hope you realize that is not a logical position.


----------



## Where_r_my_Keys

Unkotare said:


> Where_r_my_Keys said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Where_r_my_Keys said:
> 
> 
> 
> There's no such thing as the Korean War.  ...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Of course there is.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No.. there's not. ...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, there really is. Take time to educate yourself on the matter. It's not a secret.
Click to expand...


Your concession is duly noted and summarily accepted.


----------



## Where_r_my_Keys

Unkotare said:


> Where_r_my_Keys said:
> 
> 
> 
> But even if there were... the Left would axiomatically be engaged there, therefore, by extension, Islam would be engaged, as well.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I hope you realize that is not a logical position.
Click to expand...


If you had the slightest understanding of logic and the elements of such, you wouldn't humiliate yourself through that sort of ignorant profession, as much.  

Hope that helps.


----------



## Where_r_my_Keys

Rikurzhen said:


> westwall said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Where_r_my_Keys said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> westwall said:
> 
> 
> 
> Divide and conquer.  The best way to destroy a country is to get ALL sides at war with each other.  Multiculteralism doesn't DO that.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Nonsense... that is PRECISELY what multiculturalism (Cultural Relativism) does... .
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Multiculteralism is NOT cultural relativism.  Multiculteralism is the acknowledgement that other cultures exist, here they are, here is what they do, and we can all live together so long as we all follow the laws of this land that we all live in.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Laws are culturally determined. One group has clitoral circumcision as a deeply ingrained cultural tradition and it is legal in their homeland, another group finds the practice abhorrent and makes it illegal. The latter group must now be tolerant to the former group, to respect their ways and traditions.
> 
> The law is not culturally neutral.
Click to expand...


The only legitimate purpose of law is to serve justice.  Islam has no such understanding of law... .


----------



## westwall

Where_r_my_Keys said:


> Rikurzhen said:
> 
> 
> 
> Multiculturalism is a nonsensical notion. It can't exist without government coercion. That's where your progressive Totalitarian measures come into play.
> 
> Cultures come into conflict because of differing behavior and beliefs of the members. THEY can't be just like YOU because THEY are from a different culture than YOU. Yellow can't be Purple because they're different.
> 
> There's tons of research on how corrosive diversity is to community values.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well said...  The principle that diversity is a strength, is the misnomer upon which the Cultural Relativist rests.
> 
> The problem they have is that in the analogy of steel, where dissimilar elements exist to form a stronger metal, the elements bond to one another.
> 
> Multiculturalism undermines cohesion... . Which is how we can know that Multiculturalism is a lie, just as are every other notions which come from the irrational species of reasoning OKA: Left-think.
Click to expand...






The analogy of steel actually supports the ideas of multiculturalism.  The two most extensive empires the world has ever known (the Mongol and Victorian UK) allowed the cultures within them to exist so long as they did it peacefully.  The capital of the Mongolian Empire was famous for its religious tolerance where Catholic, Islam, Animist, Confucianism, Buddhism, Hinduism et al co-existed peaceably for over 100 years.  That period witnessed the greatest spread of technology and commerce the world had ever seen until the recent era.


----------



## Unkotare

Where_r_my_Keys said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Where_r_my_Keys said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Where_r_my_Keys said:
> 
> 
> 
> There's no such thing as the Korean War.  ...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Of course there is.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No.. there's not. ...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, there really is. Take time to educate yourself on the matter. It's not a secret.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Your concession is duly noted and summarily accepted.
Click to expand...


A direct refutation is not a "concession" in the English language. Go ahead and look into the matter for yourself.


----------



## Unkotare

Where_r_my_Keys said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Where_r_my_Keys said:
> 
> 
> 
> But even if there were... the Left would axiomatically be engaged there, therefore, by extension, Islam would be engaged, as well.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I hope you realize that is not a logical position.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> If you had the slightest understanding of logic and the elements of such, you wouldn't humiliate yourself through that sort of ignorant profession, as much.
> 
> Hope that helps.
Click to expand...



I don't mean this as an insult, but it is very highly likely that I am more familiar with, and versed in, logic than yourself. Just so you understand before making your next comment.


----------



## Rikurzhen

The joys of multiculturalism in Australia. Remember, all freedoms have to be jettisoned in order to make multiculturalism work.

Columnist found guilty of inciting racial hatred:

HERALD Sun columnist Andrew Bolt has lost an action brought in the Federal Court in which the columnist was accused of breaching the Racial Discrimination Act.

Bolt was found to have contravened Section 18C of the Racial Discrimination Act.

Nine aboriginal applicants brought a class-action against Bolt and the Herald and Weekly Times claiming Bolt wrote they sought professional advantage from the colour of their skin.​What was his crime?






AS you see, the two men above are from a tribe of people who face terrible racism just because of the colour of their skin.

So you’ll be thrilled that both have won a rare opportunity - one offered to their race alone to end such injustice.

The man to the right, Sydney arts academic Danie Mellor, this week won our richest prize for Aboriginal artists - the $40,000 Telstra Award.

And the man to the left, Sydney law academic Mark McMillan, has won one of our richest prizes for Aboriginal students - the Fulbright Indigenous Scholarship.

If, studying the faces of these two “Aboriginal” men you think this is surely the most amazing stretch of definition, you’re wrong.​


----------



## Where_r_my_Keys

westwall said:


> Where_r_my_Keys said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Rikurzhen said:
> 
> 
> 
> Multiculturalism is a nonsensical notion. It can't exist without government coercion. That's where your progressive Totalitarian measures come into play.
> 
> Cultures come into conflict because of differing behavior and beliefs of the members. THEY can't be just like YOU because THEY are from a different culture than YOU. Yellow can't be Purple because they're different.
> 
> There's tons of research on how corrosive diversity is to community values.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well said...  The principle that diversity is a strength, is the misnomer upon which the Cultural Relativist rests.
> 
> The problem they have is that in the analogy of steel, where dissimilar elements exist to form a stronger metal, the elements bond to one another.
> 
> Multiculturalism undermines cohesion... . Which is how we can know that Multiculturalism is a lie, just as are every other notions which come from the irrational species of reasoning OKA: Left-think.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The analogy of steel actually supports the ideas of multiculturalism.  The two most extensive empires the world has ever known (the Mongol and Victorian UK) allowed the cultures within them to exist so long as they did it peacefully.  The capital of the Mongolian Empire was famous for its religious tolerance where Catholic, Islam, Animist, Confucianism, Buddhism, Hinduism et al co-existed peaceably for over 100 years.  That period witnessed the greatest spread of technology and commerce the world had ever seen until the recent era.
Click to expand...


LOL!  The United States is or at least was known as "The Great melting Pot".  The strength of which was the means of people to come from many cultures and make ONE CULTURE. 

Did you see that?  

The strength of Steel is that numerous otherwise dissimilar elements JOIN TOGETHER, to make a stronger metal.  

Meaning that in Steel is NOT a pile of differing elements, it is a NEW and distinct metal... .

The steel analogy only serves to prove, in indisputable terms, that Multi-culturalism, which REJECTS the joining of differing cultures into ONE CULTURE.  

To believe otherwise is to delude yourself... and no individual can be sustained through self-delusion.


----------



## Where_r_my_Keys

Unkotare said:


> I don't mean this as an insult, but it is very highly likely that I am more familiar with, and versed in, logic than yourself. Just so you understand before making your next comment.



"It" may be a lot of things, but "likely" is not one of them... In your last 5 posts you've advance four logical fallacies... yet you're wholly ignorant of such.  Proving indisputably that you've ignorant of logic, across the board and on the whole.


----------



## beagle9

Rikurzhen said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Rikurzhen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Rikurzhen said:
> 
> 
> 
> Can you become Japanese? Can a Muslim from Nigeria also become a Japanese person?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Are you really incapable of distinguishing citizenship from ethnicity?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Ethnicity:
> 
> British
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Not British
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> This is a duplicate of what you posted elsewhere.
> 
> Of course you show the extremes which are hardly accurate are they?
> 
> The average Brit is hardly walking around in bowler hats and suits.  The average Brit who is a Muslim is hardly going around screaming abuse.  Nice bit of exageration that.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> The first group was NEVER ASKED to share community with the second group. A silent coup IMPOSED the second group onto the first group.
> 
> Immigrants don't say "You know, those bowler hats and the bubbles and squeak, are sure attractive and I want to abandon my culture and faith and become British and Christian. I'm going to immigrate to Britain in order to become British because I so admire British culture."  This formulation isn't so troublesome. This formulation though is almost never seen anymore.
> 
> What we see instead is the above - the keeping of native culture and religion and co-locating that religion and culture alongside British culture in the UK. This is a recipe for war. Different peoples, different faith, different cultures, different attitudes are far more abrasive than the same people, of the same faith, the same culture and same attitudes living alongside each other.
Click to expand...

It can happen just as long as there is a constitution that is in place that all would agree with and do agree upon to up-hold, and then there is an agreeing on standing by laws that are against immoral-ism or immoral acts and radical ways that tend to exist in all cultures, and then to define what being a Brit or American is within it all.,  Then there should be a standing by that no matter who you are as a citizen or person of another ethnicity or culture that is found within a nation. When you get people trying to destroy what the citizenry in a nation had built as a culture together, and is one that is over 200 years old, then to try and replace it with pockets of anti-cultures who hate the culture that had built a nation first, then Houston we have a HUGE PROBLEM.


----------



## westwall

Where_r_my_Keys said:


> Rikurzhen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> westwall said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Where_r_my_Keys said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> westwall said:
> 
> 
> 
> Divide and conquer.  The best way to destroy a country is to get ALL sides at war with each other.  Multiculteralism doesn't DO that.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Nonsense... that is PRECISELY what multiculturalism (Cultural Relativism) does... .
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Multiculteralism is NOT cultural relativism.  Multiculteralism is the acknowledgement that other cultures exist, here they are, here is what they do, and we can all live together so long as we all follow the laws of this land that we all live in.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Laws are culturally determined. One group has clitoral circumcision as a deeply ingrained cultural tradition and it is legal in their homeland, another group finds the practice abhorrent and makes it illegal. The latter group must now be tolerant to the former group, to respect their ways and traditions.
> 
> The law is not culturally neutral.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The only legitimate purpose of law is to serve justice.  Islam has no such understanding of law... .
Click to expand...





The purpose of laws is to maintain order.  Simple "justice" can be meted out by well regulated vigilante groups.


----------



## westwall

Rikurzhen said:


> The joys of multiculturalism in Australia. Remember, all freedoms have to be jettisoned in order to make multiculturalism work.
> 
> Columnist found guilty of inciting racial hatred:
> 
> HERALD Sun columnist Andrew Bolt has lost an action brought in the Federal Court in which the columnist was accused of breaching the Racial Discrimination Act.
> 
> Bolt was found to have contravened Section 18C of the Racial Discrimination Act.
> 
> Nine aboriginal applicants brought a class-action against Bolt and the Herald and Weekly Times claiming Bolt wrote they sought professional advantage from the colour of their skin.​What was his crime?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> AS you see, the two men above are from a tribe of people who face terrible racism just because of the colour of their skin.
> 
> So you’ll be thrilled that both have won a rare opportunity - one offered to their race alone to end such injustice.
> 
> The man to the right, Sydney arts academic Danie Mellor, this week won our richest prize for Aboriginal artists - the $40,000 Telstra Award.
> 
> And the man to the left, Sydney law academic Mark McMillan, has won one of our richest prizes for Aboriginal students - the Fulbright Indigenous Scholarship.
> 
> If, studying the faces of these two “Aboriginal” men you think this is surely the most amazing stretch of definition, you’re wrong.​




No, that is Political correctness run amok.  The two are very, very different.


----------



## Where_r_my_Keys

Unkotare said:


> Where_r_my_Keys said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Where_r_my_Keys said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Where_r_my_Keys said:
> 
> 
> 
> There's no such thing as the Korean War.  ...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Of course there is.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No.. there's not. ...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, there really is. Take time to educate yourself on the matter. It's not a secret.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Your concession is duly noted and summarily accepted.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> A direct refutation is not a "concession" in the English language. Go ahead and look into the matter for yourself.
Click to expand...



You should look words up, so as to familiarize yourself with their meanings, before you use them in these humiliating professions of abject ignorance.

Allow me to show you how it works:

Denial: the action of declaring something to be untrue  < that's what you did.

Refute: prove (a statement or theory) to be wrong or false; disprove.

See the difference?


----------



## Where_r_my_Keys

westwall said:


> Where_r_my_Keys said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Rikurzhen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> westwall said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Where_r_my_Keys said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> westwall said:
> 
> 
> 
> Divide and conquer.  The best way to destroy a country is to get ALL sides at war with each other.  Multiculteralism doesn't DO that.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Nonsense... that is PRECISELY what multiculturalism (Cultural Relativism) does... .
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Multiculteralism is NOT cultural relativism.  Multiculteralism is the acknowledgement that other cultures exist, here they are, here is what they do, and we can all live together so long as we all follow the laws of this land that we all live in.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Laws are culturally determined. One group has clitoral circumcision as a deeply ingrained cultural tradition and it is legal in their homeland, another group finds the practice abhorrent and makes it illegal. The latter group must now be tolerant to the former group, to respect their ways and traditions.
> 
> The law is not culturally neutral.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The only legitimate purpose of law is to serve justice.  Islam has no such understanding of law... .
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The purpose of laws is to maintain order.  Simple "justice" can be meted out by well regulated vigilante groups.
Click to expand...


And THAT folks is yet another example of why cultures fail when ignorance is tolerated.

Law is only legitimate when it serves justice... period.


----------



## westwall

Where_r_my_Keys said:


> westwall said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Where_r_my_Keys said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Rikurzhen said:
> 
> 
> 
> Multiculturalism is a nonsensical notion. It can't exist without government coercion. That's where your progressive Totalitarian measures come into play.
> 
> Cultures come into conflict because of differing behavior and beliefs of the members. THEY can't be just like YOU because THEY are from a different culture than YOU. Yellow can't be Purple because they're different.
> 
> There's tons of research on how corrosive diversity is to community values.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well said...  The principle that diversity is a strength, is the misnomer upon which the Cultural Relativist rests.
> 
> The problem they have is that in the analogy of steel, where dissimilar elements exist to form a stronger metal, the elements bond to one another.
> 
> Multiculturalism undermines cohesion... . Which is how we can know that Multiculturalism is a lie, just as are every other notions which come from the irrational species of reasoning OKA: Left-think.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The analogy of steel actually supports the ideas of multiculturalism.  The two most extensive empires the world has ever known (the Mongol and Victorian UK) allowed the cultures within them to exist so long as they did it peacefully.  The capital of the Mongolian Empire was famous for its religious tolerance where Catholic, Islam, Animist, Confucianism, Buddhism, Hinduism et al co-existed peaceably for over 100 years.  That period witnessed the greatest spread of technology and commerce the world had ever seen until the recent era.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> LOL!  The United States is or at least was known as "The Great melting Pot".  The strength of which was the means of people to come from many cultures and make ONE CULTURE.
> 
> Did you see that?
> 
> The strength of Steel is that numerous otherwise dissimilar elements JOIN TOGETHER, to make a stronger metal.
> 
> Meaning that in Steel is NOT a pile of differing elements, it is a NEW and distinct metal... .
> 
> The steel analogy only serves to prove, in indisputable terms, that Multi-culturalism, which REJECTS the joining of differing cultures into ONE CULTURE.
> 
> To believe otherwise is to delude yourself... and no individual can be sustained through self-delusion.
Click to expand...





Steel takes iron (white people), chromium (black people), carbon (Asian people) and any of a whole host of other alloying materials (whatever other ethnic group there is) and by heating and tempering them you get a much stronger alloy.  You can vary the amounts and the types to get a varity of steel types such as tool steel, stainless steel, chrome vanadium steel, rolled homogenous steel plate etc.

In other words the more additives you employ the differing types of steel you get.  Multiculteralism at work on a microcosmic scale.


----------



## Rikurzhen

westwall said:


> Rikurzhen said:
> 
> 
> 
> The joys of multiculturalism in Australia. Remember, all freedoms have to be jettisoned in order to make multiculturalism work.
> 
> Columnist found guilty of inciting racial hatred:
> 
> HERALD Sun columnist Andrew Bolt has lost an action brought in the Federal Court in which the columnist was accused of breaching the Racial Discrimination Act.
> 
> Bolt was found to have contravened Section 18C of the Racial Discrimination Act.
> 
> Nine aboriginal applicants brought a class-action against Bolt and the Herald and Weekly Times claiming Bolt wrote they sought professional advantage from the colour of their skin.​What was his crime?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> AS you see, the two men above are from a tribe of people who face terrible racism just because of the colour of their skin.
> 
> So you’ll be thrilled that both have won a rare opportunity - one offered to their race alone to end such injustice.
> 
> The man to the right, Sydney arts academic Danie Mellor, this week won our richest prize for Aboriginal artists - the $40,000 Telstra Award.
> 
> And the man to the left, Sydney law academic Mark McMillan, has won one of our richest prizes for Aboriginal students - the Fulbright Indigenous Scholarship.
> 
> If, studying the faces of these two “Aboriginal” men you think this is surely the most amazing stretch of definition, you’re wrong.​
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No, that is Political correctness run amok.  The two are very, very different.
Click to expand...


And we have Civil Rights laws here. This is what happens when multiculturalism exists within a Democracy. Groups use government to their advantage. Look at what's happening with our two parties. Republicans are becoming the party of whites and Democrats are becoming the party of color. Democrats aim to extract wealth from whites and dispense it to their supporters. This dynamic doesn't exist in non-multicultural societies. There, parties are divided by ideas, not by race or religion or ethnicity.

Australia has its Racial Discrimination Act, we have Civil Rights laws, all because we have to deal with the problems that multiculturalism imposes on society.


----------



## Dogmaphobe

westwall said:


> I see that your argument is a vacuous train-wreck.  Multiculturalism equates all cultures, demanding that unsound cultures be accepted as sustainable.  It's a deceitful rationalization, fraudulently advanced as a means to influence the ignorant.



It is certainly all that.

and since Multiculturalism is in the business of preserving archaic cultural mores, it is actually a very conservative ideology masquerading as a liberal. It's very purpose is to PREVENT backwards immigrants from accepting the liberal ways of the host communities since it operates on the assumption that rights are not afforded to the individual based upon any recognizable goal, but merely assigned by the subgroup as a product of custom.

It assumes that morality is entirely normative and that here is no such thing as moral reason.


----------



## Where_r_my_Keys

westwall said:


> Rikurzhen said:
> 
> 
> 
> The joys of multiculturalism in Australia. Remember, all freedoms have to be jettisoned in order to make multiculturalism work.
> 
> Columnist found guilty of inciting racial hatred:
> 
> HERALD Sun columnist Andrew Bolt has lost an action brought in the Federal Court in which the columnist was accused of breaching the Racial Discrimination Act.
> 
> Bolt was found to have contravened Section 18C of the Racial Discrimination Act.
> 
> Nine aboriginal applicants brought a class-action against Bolt and the Herald and Weekly Times claiming Bolt wrote they sought professional advantage from the colour of their skin.​What was his crime?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> AS you see, the two men above are from a tribe of people who face terrible racism just because of the colour of their skin.
> 
> So you’ll be thrilled that both have won a rare opportunity - one offered to their race alone to end such injustice.
> 
> The man to the right, Sydney arts academic Danie Mellor, this week won our richest prize for Aboriginal artists - the $40,000 Telstra Award.
> 
> And the man to the left, Sydney law academic Mark McMillan, has won one of our richest prizes for Aboriginal students - the Fulbright Indigenous Scholarship.
> 
> If, studying the faces of these two “Aboriginal” men you think this is surely the most amazing stretch of definition, you’re wrong.​
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No, that is Political correctness run amok.  The two are very, very different.
Click to expand...


Political Correctness run amok is the intrinsic product of the irrational species of reasoning OKA: Left-think.


----------



## Rikurzhen

westwall said:


> Where_r_my_Keys said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> westwall said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Where_r_my_Keys said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Rikurzhen said:
> 
> 
> 
> Multiculturalism is a nonsensical notion. It can't exist without government coercion. That's where your progressive Totalitarian measures come into play.
> 
> Cultures come into conflict because of differing behavior and beliefs of the members. THEY can't be just like YOU because THEY are from a different culture than YOU. Yellow can't be Purple because they're different.
> 
> There's tons of research on how corrosive diversity is to community values.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well said...  The principle that diversity is a strength, is the misnomer upon which the Cultural Relativist rests.
> 
> The problem they have is that in the analogy of steel, where dissimilar elements exist to form a stronger metal, the elements bond to one another.
> 
> Multiculturalism undermines cohesion... . Which is how we can know that Multiculturalism is a lie, just as are every other notions which come from the irrational species of reasoning OKA: Left-think.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The analogy of steel actually supports the ideas of multiculturalism.  The two most extensive empires the world has ever known (the Mongol and Victorian UK) allowed the cultures within them to exist so long as they did it peacefully.  The capital of the Mongolian Empire was famous for its religious tolerance where Catholic, Islam, Animist, Confucianism, Buddhism, Hinduism et al co-existed peaceably for over 100 years.  That period witnessed the greatest spread of technology and commerce the world had ever seen until the recent era.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> LOL!  The United States is or at least was known as "The Great melting Pot".  The strength of which was the means of people to come from many cultures and make ONE CULTURE.
> 
> Did you see that?
> 
> The strength of Steel is that numerous otherwise dissimilar elements JOIN TOGETHER, to make a stronger metal.
> 
> Meaning that in Steel is NOT a pile of differing elements, it is a NEW and distinct metal... .
> 
> The steel analogy only serves to prove, in indisputable terms, that Multi-culturalism, which REJECTS the joining of differing cultures into ONE CULTURE.
> 
> To believe otherwise is to delude yourself... and no individual can be sustained through self-delusion.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Steel takes iron (white people), chromium (black people), carbon (Asian people) and any of a whole host of other alloying materials (whatever other ethnic group there is) and by heating and tempering them you get a much stronger alloy.  You can vary the amounts and the types to get a varity of steel types such as tool steel, stainless steel, chrome vanadium steel, rolled homogenous steel plate etc.
> 
> In other words the more additives you employ the differing types of steel you get.  Multiculteralism at work on a microcosmic scale.
Click to expand...


I'm seeing that you are fundamentally confused about this topic. You're arguing a fondue pot of different melted cheeses when everyone else understands that the issue is a salad bowl of various vegetables.


----------



## westwall

Where_r_my_Keys said:


> westwall said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Where_r_my_Keys said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Rikurzhen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> westwall said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Where_r_my_Keys said:
> 
> 
> 
> Nonsense... that is PRECISELY what multiculturalism (Cultural Relativism) does... .
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Multiculteralism is NOT cultural relativism.  Multiculteralism is the acknowledgement that other cultures exist, here they are, here is what they do, and we can all live together so long as we all follow the laws of this land that we all live in.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Laws are culturally determined. One group has clitoral circumcision as a deeply ingrained cultural tradition and it is legal in their homeland, another group finds the practice abhorrent and makes it illegal. The latter group must now be tolerant to the former group, to respect their ways and traditions.
> 
> The law is not culturally neutral.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The only legitimate purpose of law is to serve justice.  Islam has no such understanding of law... .
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The purpose of laws is to maintain order.  Simple "justice" can be meted out by well regulated vigilante groups.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> And THAT folks is yet another example of why cultures fail when ignorance is tolerated.
> 
> Law is only legitimate when it serves justice... period.
Click to expand...






That is your interpretation, one that history, jurisprudence, and simple common sense denies.  No LEGAL SYSTEM has ever had as it's primary remit, "justice".  Justice is merely a secondary effect.  In other words, justice can only happen if a law has been broken.  Laws are passed to MAINTAIN ORDER.

Do you get that?


----------



## Where_r_my_Keys

Dogmaphobe said:


> westwall said:
> 
> 
> 
> I see that your argument is a vacuous train-wreck.  Multiculturalism equates all cultures, demanding that unsound cultures be accepted as sustainable.  It's a deceitful rationalization, fraudulently advanced as a means to influence the ignorant.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It is certainly all that.
> 
> and since Multiculturalism is in the business of preserving archaic cultural mores, it is actually a very conservative ideology masquerading as a liberal. It's very purpose is to PREVENT backwards immigrants from accepting the liberal ways of the host communities since it operates on the assumption that rights are not afforded to the individual based upon any recognizable goal, but merely assigned by the subgroup as a product of custom.
> 
> It assumes that morality is entirely normative and that here is no such thing as moral reason.
Click to expand...


Multi-culturalism does NOT seek to conserve anything.  It seeks solely to deceive, through the use of wedging one unsustainable culture, into the target culture.  It is a deceptive tool, fraudulently advanced ... as a means to influence the ignorant, toward the goal of undermining the adherence to AMERICAN PRINCIPLE.


----------



## westwall

Rikurzhen said:


> westwall said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Where_r_my_Keys said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> westwall said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Where_r_my_Keys said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Rikurzhen said:
> 
> 
> 
> Multiculturalism is a nonsensical notion. It can't exist without government coercion. That's where your progressive Totalitarian measures come into play.
> 
> Cultures come into conflict because of differing behavior and beliefs of the members. THEY can't be just like YOU because THEY are from a different culture than YOU. Yellow can't be Purple because they're different.
> 
> There's tons of research on how corrosive diversity is to community values.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well said...  The principle that diversity is a strength, is the misnomer upon which the Cultural Relativist rests.
> 
> The problem they have is that in the analogy of steel, where dissimilar elements exist to form a stronger metal, the elements bond to one another.
> 
> Multiculturalism undermines cohesion... . Which is how we can know that Multiculturalism is a lie, just as are every other notions which come from the irrational species of reasoning OKA: Left-think.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The analogy of steel actually supports the ideas of multiculturalism.  The two most extensive empires the world has ever known (the Mongol and Victorian UK) allowed the cultures within them to exist so long as they did it peacefully.  The capital of the Mongolian Empire was famous for its religious tolerance where Catholic, Islam, Animist, Confucianism, Buddhism, Hinduism et al co-existed peaceably for over 100 years.  That period witnessed the greatest spread of technology and commerce the world had ever seen until the recent era.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> LOL!  The United States is or at least was known as "The Great melting Pot".  The strength of which was the means of people to come from many cultures and make ONE CULTURE.
> 
> Did you see that?
> 
> The strength of Steel is that numerous otherwise dissimilar elements JOIN TOGETHER, to make a stronger metal.
> 
> Meaning that in Steel is NOT a pile of differing elements, it is a NEW and distinct metal... .
> 
> The steel analogy only serves to prove, in indisputable terms, that Multi-culturalism, which REJECTS the joining of differing cultures into ONE CULTURE.
> 
> To believe otherwise is to delude yourself... and no individual can be sustained through self-delusion.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Steel takes iron (white people), chromium (black people), carbon (Asian people) and any of a whole host of other alloying materials (whatever other ethnic group there is) and by heating and tempering them you get a much stronger alloy.  You can vary the amounts and the types to get a varity of steel types such as tool steel, stainless steel, chrome vanadium steel, rolled homogenous steel plate etc.
> 
> In other words the more additives you employ the differing types of steel you get.  Multiculteralism at work on a microcosmic scale.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I'm seeing that you are fundamentally confused about this topic. You're arguing a fondue pot of different melted cheeses when everyone else understands that the issue is a salad bowl of various vegetables.
Click to expand...





No, you are arguing that for civilization to exist all races must be kept separate so that there is no intermingling.  For peace and harmony to prevail all religions must be kept separate within confined areas.  History tells us that this is untrue.


----------



## Dogmaphobe

westwall said:


> Steel takes iron (white people), chromium (black people), carbon (Asian people) and any of a whole host of other alloying materials (whatever other ethnic group there is) and by heating and tempering them you get a much stronger alloy.  You can vary the amounts and the types to get a varity of steel types such as tool steel, stainless steel, chrome vanadium steel, rolled homogenous steel plate etc.
> 
> In other words the more additives you employ the differing types of steel you get.  Multiculteralism at work on a microcosmic scale.




You have not described multiculturalism. You have described a melting pot

Multiculturalism acts more like putting oil and water together, where each remains distinct in the glass..


----------



## westwall

Where_r_my_Keys said:


> Dogmaphobe said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> westwall said:
> 
> 
> 
> I see that your argument is a vacuous train-wreck.  Multiculturalism equates all cultures, demanding that unsound cultures be accepted as sustainable.  It's a deceitful rationalization, fraudulently advanced as a means to influence the ignorant.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It is certainly all that.
> 
> and since Multiculturalism is in the business of preserving archaic cultural mores, it is actually a very conservative ideology masquerading as a liberal. It's very purpose is to PREVENT backwards immigrants from accepting the liberal ways of the host communities since it operates on the assumption that rights are not afforded to the individual based upon any recognizable goal, but merely assigned by the subgroup as a product of custom.
> 
> It assumes that morality is entirely normative and that here is no such thing as moral reason.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Multi-culturalism does NOT seek to conserve anything.  It seeks solely to deceive, through the use of wedging one unsustainable culture, into the target culture.  It is a deceptive tool, fraudulently advanced ... as a means to influence the ignorant, toward the goal of undermining the adherence to AMERICAN PRINCIPLE.
Click to expand...





Using the CONUS and Declaration of Independence define American Principles.


----------



## Dogmaphobe

Where_r_my_Keys said:


> Multi-culturalism does NOT seek to conserve anything.  It seeks solely to deceive, through the use of wedging one unsustainable culture, into the target culture.  It is a deceptive tool, fraudulently advanced ... as a means to influence the ignorant, toward the goal of undermining the adherence to AMERICAN PRINCIPLE.


 

Of course it seeks to conserve. It seeks to conserve the cultural values of the immigrant communities.

That doesn't mean it isn't deceptive, which it is. It just describes what it does according to the classical definitions as to what the terms mean.


----------



## Where_r_my_Keys

westwall said:


> ... No LEGAL SYSTEM has ever had as it's primary remit, "justice".  Justice is merely a secondary effect.  In other words, justice can only happen if a law has been broken.  Laws are passed to MAINTAIN ORDER.
> 
> Do you get that?




No?

LOL!

Again friends... THIS is why the tolerance of Left-think was a catastrophic error on the part of our grand parents... and why only NATURAL BORN CITIZENS of the United States can LEGALLY be candidates for and be seated as President of the United States.

Let's review the 'primary remit' [sic] of the US Legal SYSTEM:

"We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America."

The Americans will recognize it, the Leftists will need to google it... take your time kids.  We'll wait on ya.


----------



## westwall

Dogmaphobe said:


> westwall said:
> 
> 
> 
> Steel takes iron (white people), chromium (black people), carbon (Asian people) and any of a whole host of other alloying materials (whatever other ethnic group there is) and by heating and tempering them you get a much stronger alloy.  You can vary the amounts and the types to get a varity of steel types such as tool steel, stainless steel, chrome vanadium steel, rolled homogenous steel plate etc.
> 
> In other words the more additives you employ the differing types of steel you get.  Multiculteralism at work on a microcosmic scale.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You have not described multiculturalism. You have described a melting pot
> 
> Multiculturalism acts more like putting oil and water together, where each remains distinct in the glass..
Click to expand...





Multiculteralism is "melting pot" defined.  That's all.  Please note the post where I emphasized that all cultures living together and UNDER THE LAWS OF THE LAND THEY ALL INHABIT!  No cultural relativism, which IS what you described, but mutual cohabitation where all groups live together and follow the LAWS OF THE LAND.


----------



## Where_r_my_Keys

westwall said:


> Where_r_my_Keys said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dogmaphobe said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> westwall said:
> 
> 
> 
> I see that your argument is a vacuous train-wreck.  Multiculturalism equates all cultures, demanding that unsound cultures be accepted as sustainable.  It's a deceitful rationalization, fraudulently advanced as a means to influence the ignorant.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It is certainly all that.
> 
> and since Multiculturalism is in the business of preserving archaic cultural mores, it is actually a very conservative ideology masquerading as a liberal. It's very purpose is to PREVENT backwards immigrants from accepting the liberal ways of the host communities since it operates on the assumption that rights are not afforded to the individual based upon any recognizable goal, but merely assigned by the subgroup as a product of custom.
> 
> It assumes that morality is entirely normative and that here is no such thing as moral reason.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Multi-culturalism does NOT seek to conserve anything.  It seeks solely to deceive, through the use of wedging one unsustainable culture, into the target culture.  It is a deceptive tool, fraudulently advanced ... as a means to influence the ignorant, toward the goal of undermining the adherence to AMERICAN PRINCIPLE.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Using the CONUS and Declaration of Independence define American Principles.
Click to expand...


The Constitution represents the foundation upon which US Law rests.  The Charter of American Principle was declared as the basis for the right of our founding Father's to govern themselves... the principles are set forth in that instrument... they were stated as follows: 

"When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature’s God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation. 

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal; that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights; that among these are Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness; that, to secure these rights, governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed; that whenever any form of government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new government, laying its foundation on such principles, and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shown that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same object, evinces a design to reduce them under absolute despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such government, and to provide new guards for their future security. ..."


----------



## Dogmaphobe

westwall said:


> Multiculteralism is "melting pot" defined.  That's all.  Please note the post where I emphasized that all cultures living together and UNDER THE LAWS OF THE LAND THEY ALL INHABIT!  No cultural relativism, which IS what you described, but mutual cohabitation where all groups live together and follow the LAWS OF THE LAND.



You obviously do not even know what Multiculturalism IS. 

 Melting pot and Multiculturalism are near antitheses, since one encourages the adoption of a common culture and one doesn't.

 We are Americans. We aren't a bunch of Brits, Germans, Italians and French all keeping to our separate ways. .


----------



## Where_r_my_Keys

westwall said:


> Multiculteralism is "melting pot" defined.



Nonsense...


----------



## westwall

Where_r_my_Keys said:


> westwall said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Where_r_my_Keys said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dogmaphobe said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> westwall said:
> 
> 
> 
> I see that your argument is a vacuous train-wreck.  Multiculturalism equates all cultures, demanding that unsound cultures be accepted as sustainable.  It's a deceitful rationalization, fraudulently advanced as a means to influence the ignorant.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It is certainly all that.
> 
> and since Multiculturalism is in the business of preserving archaic cultural mores, it is actually a very conservative ideology masquerading as a liberal. It's very purpose is to PREVENT backwards immigrants from accepting the liberal ways of the host communities since it operates on the assumption that rights are not afforded to the individual based upon any recognizable goal, but merely assigned by the subgroup as a product of custom.
> 
> It assumes that morality is entirely normative and that here is no such thing as moral reason.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Multi-culturalism does NOT seek to conserve anything.  It seeks solely to deceive, through the use of wedging one unsustainable culture, into the target culture.  It is a deceptive tool, fraudulently advanced ... as a means to influence the ignorant, toward the goal of undermining the adherence to AMERICAN PRINCIPLE.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Using the CONUS and Declaration of Independence define American Principles.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The Constitution represents the foundation upon which US Law rests.  The Charter of American Principle was declared as the basis for the right of our founding Father's to govern themselves... the principles are set forth in that instrument... they were stated as follows:
> 
> "When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature’s God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.
> 
> We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal; that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights; that among these are Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness; that, to secure these rights, governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed; that whenever any form of government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new government, laying its foundation on such principles, and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shown that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same object, evinces a design to reduce them under absolute despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such government, and to provide new guards for their future security. ..."
Click to expand...








Yes, the relevant clause......

*Creator with certain unalienable rights; that among these are Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness;*


----------



## westwall

Dogmaphobe said:


> westwall said:
> 
> 
> 
> Multiculteralism is "melting pot" defined.  That's all.  Please note the post where I emphasized that all cultures living together and UNDER THE LAWS OF THE LAND THEY ALL INHABIT!  No cultural relativism, which IS what you described, but mutual cohabitation where all groups live together and follow the LAWS OF THE LAND.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You obviously do not even know what Multiculturalism IS.
> 
> Melting pot and Multiculturalism are near antitheses, since one encourages the adoption of a common culture and one doesn't.
> 
> We are Americans. We aren't a bunch of Brits, Germans, Italians and French all keeping to our separate ways. .
Click to expand...







I am a Scottish American.  I have relatives in Scotland.  My wife is French American.  She has relatives all over France.  We still practice those traditions that were begun centuries ago that are relevant to our homeland.  We even travel back to our collective homelands on a regular basis.  We honor where we came from.  We also honor where we are and follow the laws of our new home.

That is multiculturalism personified.


----------



## Where_r_my_Keys

westwall said:


> Where_r_my_Keys said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> westwall said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Where_r_my_Keys said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dogmaphobe said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> westwall said:
> 
> 
> 
> I see that your argument is a vacuous train-wreck.  Multiculturalism equates all cultures, demanding that unsound cultures be accepted as sustainable.  It's a deceitful rationalization, fraudulently advanced as a means to influence the ignorant.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It is certainly all that.
> 
> and since Multiculturalism is in the business of preserving archaic cultural mores, it is actually a very conservative ideology masquerading as a liberal. It's very purpose is to PREVENT backwards immigrants from accepting the liberal ways of the host communities since it operates on the assumption that rights are not afforded to the individual based upon any recognizable goal, but merely assigned by the subgroup as a product of custom.
> 
> It assumes that morality is entirely normative and that here is no such thing as moral reason.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Multi-culturalism does NOT seek to conserve anything.  It seeks solely to deceive, through the use of wedging one unsustainable culture, into the target culture.  It is a deceptive tool, fraudulently advanced ... as a means to influence the ignorant, toward the goal of undermining the adherence to AMERICAN PRINCIPLE.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Using the CONUS and Declaration of Independence define American Principles.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The Constitution represents the foundation upon which US Law rests.  The Charter of American Principle was declared as the basis for the right of our founding Father's to govern themselves... the principles are set forth in that instrument... they were stated as follows:
> 
> "When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature’s God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.
> 
> We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal; that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights; that among these are Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness; that, to secure these rights, governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed; that whenever any form of government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new government, laying its foundation on such principles, and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shown that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same object, evinces a design to reduce them under absolute despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such government, and to provide new guards for their future security. ..."
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, the relevant clause......
> 
> *Creator with certain unalienable rights; that among these are Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness;*
Click to expand...


Every 'clause' is relevant... as each represents an immutable principle in nature... and each is wholly rejected by the relativists of the Ideological Left.  Preferring instead to advocate for Foreign Ideas, each hostile to American principle.  Such as Multiculturalism, which holds up the unsustainable cultures of Islam and other manifestly evil populations, as equal to those which recognize, respect, defend and adhere to: Nature's Law.


----------



## Where_r_my_Keys

westwall said:


> I am a Scottish American.  I have relatives in Scotland.  My wife is French American.  She has relatives all over France.  We still practice those traditions that were begun centuries ago that are relevant to our homeland.  We even travel back to our collective homelands on a regular basis.  We honor where we came from.  We also honor where we are and follow the laws of our new home.
> 
> That is multiculturalism personified.



That is denial personified.


----------



## westwall

Where_r_my_Keys said:


> westwall said:
> 
> 
> 
> I am a Scottish American.  I have relatives in Scotland.  My wife is French American.  She has relatives all over France.  We still practice those traditions that were begun centuries ago that are relevant to our homeland.  We even travel back to our collective homelands on a regular basis.  We honor where we came from.  We also honor where we are and follow the laws of our new home.
> 
> That is multiculturalism personified.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That is denial personified.
Click to expand...






And you are free to think that way.  Isn't America grand!


----------



## Where_r_my_Keys

Where_r_my_Keys said:


> westwall said:
> 
> 
> 
> ... No LEGAL SYSTEM has ever had as it's primary remit, "justice".  Justice is merely a secondary effect.  In other words, justice can only happen if a law has been broken.  Laws are passed to MAINTAIN ORDER.
> 
> Do you get that?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No?
> 
> LOL!
> 
> Again friends... THIS is why the tolerance of Left-think was a catastrophic error on the part of our grand parents...
> 
> Let's review the 'primary remit' [sic] of the US Legal SYSTEM:
> 
> "We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America."
> 
> The Americans will recognize it, the Leftists will need to google it... take your time kids.  We'll wait on ya.
Click to expand...




westwall said:


> Where_r_my_Keys said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> westwall said:
> 
> 
> 
> I am a Scottish American.  I have relatives in Scotland.  My wife is French American.  She has relatives all over France.  We still practice those traditions that were begun centuries ago that are relevant to our homeland.  We even travel back to our collective homelands on a regular basis.  We honor where we came from.  We also honor where we are and follow the laws of our new home.
> 
> That is multiculturalism personified.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That is denial personified.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And you are free to think that way.  Isn't America grand!
Click to expand...


Yes I am free to think.  As are you.  

What you clearly do not understand is that your refusal to do so is a failure on your part to bear the responsibilities that sustain your means to exercise your rights. 

But you seem like a decent enough human being... and you at least possess the means to hold a civil discussion, which is a rarity among 'moderates'.


----------



## skye

Figaro said:


> The Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR) today launched Islamophobia.org, the latest element in the Muslim civil rights organization's work to monitor and challenge the growing anti-Muslim bigotry in American society.
> 
> CAIR's Islamophobia.org site presents detailed profiles of a number of individuals and institutions involved in the American Islamophobia network.
> 
> You may follow the link to get rid of your Islamophobia
> Islamophobia is closed-minded prejudice against or hatred of Islam and Muslims. - Islamophobia




It doesn't surprise  me at all that CAIR is launching that site, it's just the same old false propaganda to lure the naive fans of Islam.

It's taqiyya pure and simple.

CAIR is a radical organization and to quote its chairman Omar M. Ahmad, - "*Islam isn't in America to be equal to any other faith,but to become dominant. The Koran...........should be the highest authority in America, and Islam the only accepted religion on earth." * (this was reported by the San Ramon Valley Herald in July 1998)

What more can be said about CAIR.


----------



## Dogmaphobe

skye said:


> It doesn't surprise  me at all that CAIR is launching that site, it's just the same old false propaganda to lure the naive fans of Islam.




and an attempt at intimidation.

Just look how far down the rabbit hole they have taken the U.K.?  the Brits are so terrified of being called an "Islamophobe" that they offer up their children to be sexually abused by their Islamist masters. .

 Islamists view their religion as inviolate. For the life of me, I do not understand all the useful idiots living in the west who agree.


----------



## Alex.

skye said:


> Figaro said:
> 
> 
> 
> The Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR) today launched Islamophobia.org, the latest element in the Muslim civil rights organization's work to monitor and challenge the growing anti-Muslim bigotry in American society.
> 
> CAIR's Islamophobia.org site presents detailed profiles of a number of individuals and institutions involved in the American Islamophobia network.
> 
> You may follow the link to get rid of your Islamophobia
> Islamophobia is closed-minded prejudice against or hatred of Islam and Muslims. - Islamophobia
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It doesn't surprise  me at all that CAIR is launching that site, it's just the same old false propaganda to lure the naive fans of Islam.
> 
> It's taqiyya pure and simple.
> 
> CAIR is a radical organization and to quote its chairman Omar M. Ahmad, - "*Islam isn't in America to be equal to any other faith,but to become dominant. The Koran...........should be the highest authority in America, and Islam the only accepted religion on earth." * (this was reported by the San Ramon Valley Herald in July 1998)
> 
> What more can be said about CAIR.
Click to expand...

What Ahmad hopes for is pie in the sky nonsense. This has been tried during the First Barbary War and Islam lost it's bid to be supreme back then thanks to Jefferson's understanding of what the Koran meant as it relates to non Muslims.


----------



## Where_r_my_Keys

Dogmaphobe said:


> skye said:
> 
> 
> 
> It doesn't surprise  me at all that CAIR is launching that site, it's just the same old false propaganda to lure the naive fans of Islam.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> and an attempt at intimidation.
> 
> Just look how far down the rabbit hole they have taken the U.K.?  the Brits are so terrified of being called an "Islamophobe" that they offer up their children to be sexually abused by their Islamist masters. .
> 
> Islamists view their religion as inviolate. For the life of me, I do not understand all the useful idiots living in the west who agree.
Click to expand...


The UK, France, Germany, Holland, Norway... all suffering the violent ramifications of the Religion of Peace... OKA: the Cult of Islam.   It's just evil, that's all.


----------



## Rikurzhen

Dogmaphobe said:


> skye said:
> 
> 
> 
> It doesn't surprise  me at all that CAIR is launching that site, it's just the same old false propaganda to lure the naive fans of Islam.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> and an attempt at intimidation.
> 
> Just look how far down the rabbit hole they have taken the U.K.?  the Brits are so terrified of being called an "Islamophobe" that they offer up their children to be sexually abused by their Islamist masters. .
> 
> Islamists view their religion as inviolate. For the life of me, I do not understand all the useful idiots living in the west who agree.
Click to expand...


If you understand two points about the useful idiots you pretty much capture an understanding of the majority of their motivation.

1.) Status whoring. By posturing as tolerant people they boost their own ego and they peacock in front of other useful idiots and so enhance their reputation. Liberal useful idiots have a pathological need to feel superior, feel more intelligent and feel more enlightened than the masses and defense of multiculturalism has been positioned as a means of demonstrating moral superiority.

2.) A white civil war. It's more important to destroy what the "wrong kind of whites" value than it is to prevent the spread of toxic cultures within their own society. A burn the village to save the village kind of thinking.

A subset of #2 is politics - it's more important to grow the State than it is to save the nation. This is why we see Democrats so fixated upon Amnesty and the promise of 20 million + more voters and clients for the welfare state even when this results in devastation of the black community, the low income class and the organized labor class.

One exhibit:

The huge increases in migrants over the last decade were partly due to *a politically motivated attempt by ministers to radically change the country and "rub the Right's nose in diversity"*, according to Andrew Neather, a former adviser to Tony Blair, Jack Straw and David Blunkett.

He said Labour's relaxation of controls was a deliberate plan to "open up the UK to mass migration" but that ministers were nervous and reluctant to discuss such a move publicly for fear* it would alienate its "core working class vote". *​


----------



## Dogmaphobe

Rikurzhen said:


> 1.) Status whoring. By posturing as tolerant people they boost their own ego and they peacock in front of other useful idiots and so enhance their reputation. Liberal useful idiots have a pathological need to feel superior, feel more intelligent and feel more enlightened than the masses and defense of multiculturalism has been positioned as a means of demonstrating moral superiority.




Oh, it is definitely posturing and it works as a conditioned response. They receive props from their peeps for saying the fashionable things and lose their license in the club if they don't. It isn't about intellectual honesty, but about conformity and feeling virtuous.

I think beyond that, however, there is a very real tendency among much of the left towards a brand of self-loathing that is manifested through projection onto their entire culture. They are like the opposite of a Jingoist, for to them, America is always wrong. Since America is always wrong, then those most opposed to us are elevated in status.  When I was  kid, a certain portion of the left was sympathetic with Soviet communism. Today it is Islamism, and the reason is the same despite the fact the two have nothing in common ideologically. They are just the symbol of that opposing us,and so if you want to act out against the man, that's how you do it.


----------



## Dogmaphobe

westwall said:


> That is multiculturalism personified.



Now, were this Multiculturalism personified, you would have had little likelihood of even meeting each other.   Your cultures would have been distinct rather than the same, but with these minor vestigial differences.


----------



## Where_r_my_Keys

Rikurzhen said:


> Dogmaphobe said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> skye said:
> 
> 
> 
> It doesn't surprise  me at all that CAIR is launching that site, it's just the same old false propaganda to lure the naive fans of Islam.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> and an attempt at intimidation.
> 
> Just look how far down the rabbit hole they have taken the U.K.?  the Brits are so terrified of being called an "Islamophobe" that they offer up their children to be sexually abused by their Islamist masters. .
> 
> Islamists view their religion as inviolate. For the life of me, I do not understand all the useful idiots living in the west who agree.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> If you understand two points about the useful idiots you pretty much capture an understanding of the majority of their motivation.
> 
> 1.) Status whoring. By posturing as tolerant people they boost their own ego and they peacock in front of other useful idiots and so enhance their reputation. Liberal useful idiots have a pathological need to feel superior, feel more intelligent and feel more enlightened than the masses and defense of multiculturalism has been positioned as a means of demonstrating moral superiority.
> 
> 2.) A white civil war. It's more important to destroy what the "wrong kind of whites" value than it is to prevent the spread of toxic cultures within their own society. A burn the village to save the village kind of thinking.
> 
> A subset of #2 is politics - it's more important to grow the State than it is to save the nation. This is why we see Democrats so fixated upon Amnesty and the promise of 20 million + more voters and clients for the welfare state even when this results in devastation of the black community, the low income class and the organized labor class.
> 
> One exhibit:
> 
> The huge increases in migrants over the last decade were partly due to *a politically motivated attempt by ministers to radically change the country and "rub the Right's nose in diversity"*, according to Andrew Neather, a former adviser to Tony Blair, Jack Straw and David Blunkett.
> 
> He said Labour's relaxation of controls was a deliberate plan to "open up the UK to mass migration" but that ministers were nervous and reluctant to discuss such a move publicly for fear* it would alienate its "core working class vote". *​
Click to expand...



*Ya NAILED IT!*​


----------



## Where_r_my_Keys

Dogmaphobe said:


> Rikurzhen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 1.) Status whoring. By posturing as tolerant people they boost their own ego and they peacock in front of other useful idiots and so enhance their reputation. Liberal useful idiots have a pathological need to feel superior, feel more intelligent and feel more enlightened than the masses and defense of multiculturalism has been positioned as a means of demonstrating moral superiority.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oh, it is definitely posturing and it works as a conditioned response. They receive props from their peeps for saying the fashionable things and lose their license in the club if they don't. It isn't about intellectual honesty, but about conformity and feeling virtuous.
> 
> I think beyond that, however, there is a very real tendency among much of the left towards a brand of self-loathing that is manifested through projection onto their entire culture. They are like the opposite of a Jingoist, for to them, America is always wrong. Since America is always wrong, then those most opposed to us are elevated in status.  When I was  kid, a certain portion of the left was sympathetic with Soviet communism. Today it is Islamism, and the reason is the same despite the fact the two have nothing in common ideologically. They are just the symbol of that opposing us,and so if you want to act out against the man, that's how you do it.
Click to expand...


Yup...  It's what the Old Testament simply called 'Evil'.  In modern terms it's known as 'Relativism'.  

The axiomatic rejections of objectivity... and the inherent rinsing of truth, trust, morality and justice from the cultural equation.  Real time Sodom and Gomorra, cultural madness on a grand scale.


----------



## beagle9

Rikurzhen said:


> westwall said:
> 
> 
> 
> Divide and conquer.  The best way to destroy a country is to get ALL sides at war with each other.  Multiculteralism doesn't DO that.  Multiculteralism allows people to interact with each other so they can see that those other guys over there are people...*"just like me"*.  It is hard to get one group to attack another group when the first group understands that t*hey are the same.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Do you kill people who leave your faith? Do you have your daughter's clitoris circumcised? Do you kill your daughter if she brings dishonor onto your family?
Click to expand...

I remember the honor killings that were going on in this nation a while back...Sickening stuff there, but also how about these Indians from India, as they think or believe also that their daughters or sons can't marry outside their kind. I remember that it is forbidden that they marry Americans (may have changed now), but what are they doing here if we dishonor them & their families so ? They have a network that supports them, and they are buying up as much as they can, but you will find that they try and work their own as opposed to working Americans if they can, so what's up with that as well ?

If all these people don't like us or they are just using us, then why don't we as Americans object to them being here, and them doing such things as this ? I think over time the Indians are losing their grip as their kids go to school with us, so maybe the generations will change out of their old traditions while here, and they will intermingle more and more as we all go along in life together (assimilate). But Who knows really!


----------



## Papageorgio

I don't think that all Muslims are bad and are by far in the minority.

I still believe that CAIR is a hate organization. They have tried to change their group image from a few years ago, however I put them in the same class as the KKK.


----------



## Where_r_my_Keys

Papageorgio said:


> I don't think that all Muslims are bad and are by far in the minority.
> 
> I still believe that CAIR is a hate organization. They have tried to change their group image from a few years ago, however I put them in the same class as the KKK.



Muslims are individuals... they're as good or bad as they're means to observe and adherence to, the principles of nature that govern human behavior.  Islam, is a political cult which was founded upon mass-murder by a psychopathic pedophile... which, to this day, breeds only chaos, calamity and catastrophe, in every culture it infects.


----------



## Coyote

westwall said:


> georgephillip said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> westwall said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mojo2 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> westwall said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mojo2 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Brigitte Gabriel addresses this point beautifully and her comments (in the video below) answered all the remaining questions I had about the moderate Muslims and how to regard them.
> 
> Watch.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Good video.   Me thinks the SPLC will label her an extremist any day now.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> LOLOL
> 
> Good one!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Good for her.  I have a feeling that there are going to be some very violent outbursts in the UK and that the Muslims are going to be sent home.....those that survive.  I have quite a few friends in the UK and they are getting fed up with it.  The UK government is blissfully ignorant and the pressure is building.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> By pressure do you mean blow-back from Sykes-Picot and the Balfour Declaration? Any Muslim violence in France or England stems directly from Empire and so does the resulting Islamophobia.
> Islamophobia and the Politics of Empire - Deepa Kumar on Reality Asserts Itself 3 5
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No, I mean that the British population is going to rise up and kick them the hell out of the UK.  And Islamic violence in France or the UK stems from the fact that they're there!   The moderates are going to be swept up (unfortunately) along with the violent Islamists and sent packing.  The Brits will take an awful, and for a long time.  But when they see their government abandoning them to this sort of ideology, they will act.
Click to expand...

The government has a duty to protect all it's citizens, including it's minorities.  The majority of Britain's Muslim population is perfectly law abiding.  We live under the rule of law - not mob rule and mob violence.  British Muslims have lived in Britain for generations.  They are no less British than British Christians and British Jews and British Buddhists and British Hindus.


----------



## Coyote

Papageorgio said:


> I don't think that all Muslims are bad and are by far in the minority.
> 
> *I still believe that CAIR is a hate organization. *They have tried to change their group image from a few years ago, however I put them in the *same class as the KKK*.



Based on what exactly and how exactly are they comparable to the KKK?


----------



## Coyote

Dogmaphobe said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, I'm quite sure you are happily anticipating a genocide against Muslims.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What a repulsively stupid statement. How did you get to be a moderator, anyway?
> 
> Yes, if a person is disgusted by the sexual abuse of children, then they are obviously for genocide
Click to expand...


If a person were honestly disgusted by the sexual abuse of children they would deal with that issue across the board - not use it as a vehicle to demonize an entire religion.  Child abuse is a serious issue in many parts of the world - from child marriages, the buying and selling of children for sex or cheap labor, preventing children from getting an education. The two recent Nobel Peace Prize winners are good examples of how truly caring people can make a difference in the lives of children in their countries.


----------



## Where_r_my_Keys

Coyote said:


> westwall said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> georgephillip said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> westwall said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mojo2 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> westwall said:
> 
> 
> 
> Good video.   Me thinks the SPLC will label her an extremist any day now.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> LOLOL
> 
> Good one!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Good for her.  I have a feeling that there are going to be some very violent outbursts in the UK and that the Muslims are going to be sent home.....those that survive.  I have quite a few friends in the UK and they are getting fed up with it.  The UK government is blissfully ignorant and the pressure is building.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> By pressure do you mean blow-back from Sykes-Picot and the Balfour Declaration? Any Muslim violence in France or England stems directly from Empire and so does the resulting Islamophobia.
> Islamophobia and the Politics of Empire - Deepa Kumar on Reality Asserts Itself 3 5
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No, I mean that the British population is going to rise up and kick them the hell out of the UK.  And Islamic violence in France or the UK stems from the fact that they're there!   The moderates are going to be swept up (unfortunately) along with the violent Islamists and sent packing.  The Brits will take an awful, and for a long time.  But when they see their government abandoning them to this sort of ideology, they will act.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The government has a duty to protect all it's citizens, including it's minorities.  The majority of Britain's Muslim population is perfectly law abiding.  We live under the rule of law - not mob rule and mob violence.  British Muslims have lived in Britain for generations.  They are no less British than British Christians and British Jews and British Buddhists and British Hindus.
Click to expand...


Again... we turn toward the fabled individual Muslim as a means to escape accountability for the sum of individual Muslims.

The fact is that there are ZERO instances of gangs of Hindus, or Christians or Jews of Buddhists causing ANY trouble, any where, let alone in the name of their religion, professing a responsibility to do so and proclaiming their determination to force their religion on everyone... . But no END of the examples of gangs of Muslims doing precisely THAT.


So one wonders how it is that according to the Left, individual Christians and Jews are filled with hate and malicious intent and individual Muslims are care free, innocent of malice and desirous of nothing but peace on earth. 

Weird... huh?


----------



## Coyote

Rikurzhen said:


> The first group was NEVER ASKED to share community with the second group. A silent coup IMPOSED the second group onto the first group.



What exactly do you mean by that?  They weren't asked to come to Britain?  Well...imo...too bad.  Britain colonized their nations, stripped them of their resources, discouraged value-added industries and made them subjects of the crown.  Then they left but they left in place the common wealth.  I'm sure they, in India, Kenya, Pakistan, Wassutistan what ever WEREN'T asked to share community with the Brits were they?



> Immigrants don't say "You know, those bowler hats and the bubbles and squeak, are sure attractive and I want to abandon my culture and faith and become British and Christian. I'm going to immigrate to Britain in order to become British because I so admire British culture."  This formulation isn't so troublesome. This formulation though is almost never seen anymore.



Well fortunately for Britain - many of her immigrants do enjoy the British culture - civil rights, democratic values etc.  As far as religious conversion - that's the first I've heard of it.  Do you demand that of British Jews as well?  Hindus?  Buddhists?  Immigrants bring their own culture and blend it with that of their new country.  I'm an American and that has ceratinly been the case in my country. It may not be the first generation, but it often is by the second.  IMO - the only thing required of immigrants is that they follow our laws when they adopt our country.  Typically both sides are enriched by the immigrant experience.



> What we see instead is the above - the keeping of native culture and religion and co-locating that religion and culture alongside British culture in the UK. This is a recipe for war. Different peoples, different faith, different cultures, different attitudes are far more abrasive than the same people, of the same faith, the same culture and same attitudes living alongside each other.



You can not demand that people reject their faith.  If so - you should be required to reject Christianity as that is not a native British faith.


----------



## Rikurzhen

Coyote said:


> westwall said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> georgephillip said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> westwall said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mojo2 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> westwall said:
> 
> 
> 
> Good video.   Me thinks the SPLC will label her an extremist any day now.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> LOLOL
> 
> Good one!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Good for her.  I have a feeling that there are going to be some very violent outbursts in the UK and that the Muslims are going to be sent home.....those that survive.  I have quite a few friends in the UK and they are getting fed up with it.  The UK government is blissfully ignorant and the pressure is building.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> By pressure do you mean blow-back from Sykes-Picot and the Balfour Declaration? Any Muslim violence in France or England stems directly from Empire and so does the resulting Islamophobia.
> Islamophobia and the Politics of Empire - Deepa Kumar on Reality Asserts Itself 3 5
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No, I mean that the British population is going to rise up and kick them the hell out of the UK.  And Islamic violence in France or the UK stems from the fact that they're there!   The moderates are going to be swept up (unfortunately) along with the violent Islamists and sent packing.  The Brits will take an awful, and for a long time.  But when they see their government abandoning them to this sort of ideology, they will act.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The government has a duty to protect all it's citizens, including it's minorities.  The majority of Britain's Muslim population is perfectly law abiding.  We live under the rule of law - not mob rule and mob violence.  British Muslims have lived in Britain for generations.  They are no less British than British Christians and British Jews and British Buddhists and British Hindus.
Click to expand...


You seem to argue that a government is separate from the people, it's not. The government only has authority so long as the majority back it. This is how civil wars come about.

Look at what happened in Egypt. Morsi was elected then the military deposed him, then the military started rounding up Muslim Brotherhood supporters.

Remember this, the British people were never asked whether they wanted to dissolve themselves as a people and become just one of many groups to co-inhabit the same land, the Labour Party never ran on their plan to do this to the UK. This was a silent coup. If the people get fed up enough, then they take over the government and start mass deportations in order to return society back to what it had been for millennia before the coup.

Multiculturalism in the UK has taken on the form of a combined ethnic cleansing and invasion.


----------



## Where_r_my_Keys

Coyote said:


> Dogmaphobe said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, I'm quite sure you are happily anticipating a genocide against Muslims.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What a repulsively stupid statement. How did you get to be a moderator, anyway?
> 
> Yes, if a person is disgusted by the sexual abuse of children, then they are obviously for genocide
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> If a person were honestly disgusted by the sexual abuse of children they would deal with that issue across the board - not use it as a vehicle to demonize an entire religion.  Child abuse is a serious issue in many parts of the world - from child marriages, the buying and selling of children for sex or cheap labor, preventing children from getting an education. The two recent Nobel Peace Prize winners are good examples of how truly caring people can make a difference in the lives of children in their countries.
Click to expand...


Ahh the Noble Committee... Those who gave their highest honor to a street agitator, who had written two books before he did ANYTHING... and who can't find the steam to release his birth records or his college transcripts and who is personally responsible for failing to render aid to people HE placed in harms way, setting policy to fraudulently entrap innocent people, as a means to establish policy to preclude their means to effectively defend themselves from violent criminals, and who formally abused the public trust by using official government power to prevent people from effectively organizing toward the pursuit of governing themselves... and finally... a man who delivered the most deadly virus on earth to his own nation.


----------



## Coyote

Rikurzhen said:


> westwall said:
> 
> 
> 
> Divide and conquer.  The best way to destroy a country is to get ALL sides at war with each other.  Multiculteralism doesn't DO that.  Multiculteralism allows people to interact with each other so they can see that those other guys over there are people...*"just like me"*.  It is hard to get one group to attack another group when the first group understands that t*hey are the same.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Do you kill people who leave your faith? Do you have your daughter's clitoris circumcised? Do you kill your daughter if she brings dishonor onto your family?
Click to expand...


Female circumcision has nothing to do with Islam.  It's a barbaric practice endemic to Africa and the Middle East.  

Honor killing is similar - it's a cultural practice that predates Islam and is practiced in non-Islamic cultures as well as Islamic cultures.

Killing people who leave your faith - depends on what country you are in.

Attack the practices.


----------



## Coyote

Where_r_my_Keys said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Where_r_my_Keys said:
> 
> 
> 
> Phobia: an extreme or irrational fear of or aversion to something.
> 
> Islam: Murderous political machine developed by a sociopathic mass-murdering pedophile in the 7th Century; scourge on the buttocks of humanity; presently engaged in and wholly responsible for 100% of the wars currently being waged on this planet.
> 
> Huh...   Since Islam is a dangerous, tyrannical political cult, designed as such from foundation... and since the purpose of the human being is to live free toward the pursuit of the fulfillment of its life, it therefore follows that the soundly reasoned understanding that Islam is a clear and present threat to one's life, that the rejection of such is perfectly reasonable, therefore not a potential 'phobia'.
> 
> It further follows that the projection that the rejection of Islam is irrational, is, in and of itself, irrational and bears out the reasonable conclusion that Islam is a threat and should be rejected by all culture's which desire to remain viable... .
> 
> Simple stuff.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Simpler stuff:  Do you or have you ever had any friends, friendly acquaintances, co-workers, or neighbors who were Muslim? Have you ever in your life spent so much as two hours at one stretch talking to a Muslim person?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Oh... so you're needing to conflate the least common denominator of a cult, which *was founded as a mass-murdering political machine and is presently engaged and wholly responsible for EVERY WAR PRESENTLY IN PROCESS ON THE PLANET,* as a means to project the less threatening traits of the individual Muslim, so as to distract from the incontestable threat from the Islamic whole?
> 
> 
> LOL!  Adorable... .
> 
> But to answer your question: yes, I've personally known many Muslims and they ran the gamut from total douche to douche-lites... with none of them being what I would consider 'decent human beings'.
Click to expand...


I suggest you do some research.


----------



## Coyote

Where_r_my_Keys said:


> There's no such thing as the Korean War.  You're speaking of the on-going dispute between the communist North Koreans and the soundly reasoned, sustainable culture of South Korea... who are presently at a 60 year old stand off.
> 
> *But if it helps, Islam is a religious extension of secularism (Left-think), *which is why you, as a secularist... are in here wetting your pant, over a cult which would erase you for nothing more than your public professions regarding the normalization of sexual abnormality... and this despite the disproportional instances of sexual abnormality common to Islam.



This makes no sense.  Islam is an old and established religion that is quite the opposite of "secularism" and can hardly be called "Left" - it's typically pretty conservative.


----------



## Where_r_my_Keys

Coyote said:


> Rikurzhen said:
> 
> 
> 
> The first group was NEVER ASKED to share community with the second group. A silent coup IMPOSED the second group onto the first group.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What exactly do you mean by that?  They weren't asked to come to Britain?  Well...imo...too bad.  Britain colonized their nations, stripped them of their resources, discouraged value-added industries and made them subjects of the crown.  Then they left but they left in place the common wealth.  I'm sure they, in India, Kenya, Pakistan, Wassutistan what ever WEREN'T asked to share community with the Brits were they?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Immigrants don't say "You know, those bowler hats and the bubbles and squeak, are sure attractive and I want to abandon my culture and faith and become British and Christian. I'm going to immigrate to Britain in order to become British because I so admire British culture."  This formulation isn't so troublesome. This formulation though is almost never seen anymore.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Well fortunately for Britain - many of her immigrants do enjoy the British culture - civil rights, democratic values etc.  As far as religious conversion - that's the first I've heard of it.  Do you demand that of British Jews as well?  Hindus?  Buddhists?  Immigrants bring their own culture and blend it with that of their new country.  I'm an American and that has ceratinly been the case in my country. It may not be the first generation, but it often is by the second.  IMO - the only thing required of immigrants is that they follow our laws when they adopt our country.  Typically both sides are enriched by the immigrant experience.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What we see instead is the above - the keeping of native culture and religion and co-locating that religion and culture alongside British culture in the UK. This is a recipe for war. Different peoples, different faith, different cultures, different attitudes are far more abrasive than the same people, of the same faith, the same culture and same attitudes living alongside each other.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You can not demand that people reject their faith.  If so - you should be required to reject Christianity as that is not a native British faith.
Click to expand...



ROFLMNAO!  So... in short you're saying: "Britain asked for it!".


I can't wait for you people to get it done in Britain.   We will then be able to just turn the Island into a glass menagerie if Islamic shadows...  Same with France, Germany and the rest of the ever troubled Euro-peon continent.  Clearly you people are simply not well suited for humanity.  

No problem, we'll fix that for ya.


----------



## Coyote

skye said:


> Figaro said:
> 
> 
> 
> The Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR) today launched Islamophobia.org, the latest element in the Muslim civil rights organization's work to monitor and challenge the growing anti-Muslim bigotry in American society.
> 
> CAIR's Islamophobia.org site presents detailed profiles of a number of individuals and institutions involved in the American Islamophobia network.
> 
> You may follow the link to get rid of your Islamophobia
> Islamophobia is closed-minded prejudice against or hatred of Islam and Muslims. - Islamophobia
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It doesn't surprise  me at all that CAIR is launching that site, it's just the same old false propaganda to lure the naive fans of Islam.
> 
> It's taqiyya pure and simple.
> 
> CAIR is a radical organization and to quote its chairman Omar M. Ahmad, - "*Islam isn't in America to be equal to any other faith,but to become dominant. The Koran...........should be the highest authority in America, and Islam the only accepted religion on earth." * (this was reported by the San Ramon Valley Herald in July 1998)
> 
> What more can be said about CAIR.
Click to expand...


What's the entire quote and context?  What makes CAIR "radical"?


----------



## Coyote

Dogmaphobe said:


> skye said:
> 
> 
> 
> It doesn't surprise  me at all that CAIR is launching that site, it's just the same old false propaganda to lure the naive fans of Islam.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> and an attempt at intimidation.
> 
> Just look how far down the rabbit hole they have taken the U.K.?  the Brits are so terrified of being called an "Islamophobe" that they offer up their children to be sexually abused by their Islamist masters. .
> 
> Islamists view their religion as inviolate. For the life of me, I do not understand all the useful idiots living in the west who agree.
Click to expand...


How horrible that those damn Muslims seek to have advocacy.  They should just bow their heads and accept whatever is said about them.


----------



## Coyote

Where_r_my_Keys said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> westwall said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> georgephillip said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> westwall said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mojo2 said:
> 
> 
> 
> LOLOL
> 
> Good one!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Good for her.  I have a feeling that there are going to be some very violent outbursts in the UK and that the Muslims are going to be sent home.....those that survive.  I have quite a few friends in the UK and they are getting fed up with it.  The UK government is blissfully ignorant and the pressure is building.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> By pressure do you mean blow-back from Sykes-Picot and the Balfour Declaration? Any Muslim violence in France or England stems directly from Empire and so does the resulting Islamophobia.
> Islamophobia and the Politics of Empire - Deepa Kumar on Reality Asserts Itself 3 5
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No, I mean that the British population is going to rise up and kick them the hell out of the UK.  And Islamic violence in France or the UK stems from the fact that they're there!   The moderates are going to be swept up (unfortunately) along with the violent Islamists and sent packing.  The Brits will take an awful, and for a long time.  But when they see their government abandoning them to this sort of ideology, they will act.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The government has a duty to protect all it's citizens, including it's minorities.  The majority of Britain's Muslim population is perfectly law abiding.  We live under the rule of law - not mob rule and mob violence.  British Muslims have lived in Britain for generations.  They are no less British than British Christians and British Jews and British Buddhists and British Hindus.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Again... we turn toward the fabled individual Muslim as a means to escape accountability for the sum of individual Muslims.
> 
> *The fact is that there are ZERO instances of gangs of Hindus, or Christians or Jews of Buddhists causing ANY trouble, any where, let alone in the name of their religion,* professing a responsibility to do so and proclaiming their determination to force their religion on everyone... . But no END of the examples of gangs of Muslims doing precisely THAT.
Click to expand...


That's flat out wrong.  You need to research religious violence and intolerance around the world.



> So one wonders how it is that according to the Left, individual Christians and Jews are filled with hate and malicious intent and individual Muslims are care free, innocent of malice and desirous of nothing but peace on earth.
> 
> Weird... huh?



Yes.  Weird.  Work on your research before making really weird broad brush statements like that.

Everyone - Christian, Jew, Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist etc is an individual first and formost.  I thought that was self-evident.


----------



## Where_r_my_Keys

Coyote said:


> Where_r_my_Keys said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Where_r_my_Keys said:
> 
> 
> 
> Phobia: an extreme or irrational fear of or aversion to something.
> 
> Islam: Murderous political machine developed by a sociopathic mass-murdering pedophile in the 7th Century; scourge on the buttocks of humanity; presently engaged in and wholly responsible for 100% of the wars currently being waged on this planet.
> 
> Huh...   Since Islam is a dangerous, tyrannical political cult, designed as such from foundation... and since the purpose of the human being is to live free toward the pursuit of the fulfillment of its life, it therefore follows that the soundly reasoned understanding that Islam is a clear and present threat to one's life, that the rejection of such is perfectly reasonable, therefore not a potential 'phobia'.
> 
> It further follows that the projection that the rejection of Islam is irrational, is, in and of itself, irrational and bears out the reasonable conclusion that Islam is a threat and should be rejected by all culture's which desire to remain viable... .
> 
> Simple stuff.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Simpler stuff:  Do you or have you ever had any friends, friendly acquaintances, co-workers, or neighbors who were Muslim? Have you ever in your life spent so much as two hours at one stretch talking to a Muslim person?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Oh... so you're needing to conflate the least common denominator of a cult, which *was founded as a mass-murdering political machine and is presently engaged and wholly responsible for EVERY WAR PRESENTLY IN PROCESS ON THE PLANET,* as a means to project the less threatening traits of the individual Muslim, so as to distract from the incontestable threat from the Islamic whole?
> 
> 
> LOL!  Adorable... .
> 
> But to answer your question: yes, I've personally known many Muslims and they ran the gamut from total douche to douche-lites... with none of them being what I would consider 'decent human beings'.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I suggest you do some research.
Click to expand...


ROFLMNAO!  Adorable...  Notice how the projection is that "Research" will bear out the oppositions point of view.  Clearly another student of logic has come on the scene.

10 pts to anyone who can explain the fatal flaw in the member's construct.


----------



## Coyote

Where_r_my_Keys said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dogmaphobe said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, I'm quite sure you are happily anticipating a genocide against Muslims.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What a repulsively stupid statement. How did you get to be a moderator, anyway?
> 
> Yes, if a person is disgusted by the sexual abuse of children, then they are obviously for genocide
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> If a person were honestly disgusted by the sexual abuse of children they would deal with that issue across the board - not use it as a vehicle to demonize an entire religion.  Child abuse is a serious issue in many parts of the world - from child marriages, the buying and selling of children for sex or cheap labor, preventing children from getting an education. The two recent Nobel Peace Prize winners are good examples of how truly caring people can make a difference in the lives of children in their countries.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Ahh the Noble Committee... Those who gave their highest honor to a street agitator, who had written two books before he did ANYTHING... and who can't find the steam to release his birth records or his college transcripts and who is personally responsible for failing to render aid to people HE placed in harms way, setting policy to fraudulently entrap innocent people, as a means to establish policy to preclude their means to effectively defend themselves from violent criminals, and who formally abused the public trust by using official government power to prevent people from effectively organizing toward the pursuit of governing themselves... and finally... a man who delivered the most deadly virus on earth to his own nation.
Click to expand...


So are you effectively saying that the two current winners aren't deserving?


----------



## Papageorgio

CAIR is purposely going after groups that do not tolerate their views and then brands them as bigots. I think they have no room to talk.


----------



## Coyote

Where_r_my_Keys said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Where_r_my_Keys said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Where_r_my_Keys said:
> 
> 
> 
> Phobia: an extreme or irrational fear of or aversion to something.
> 
> Islam: Murderous political machine developed by a sociopathic mass-murdering pedophile in the 7th Century; scourge on the buttocks of humanity; presently engaged in and wholly responsible for 100% of the wars currently being waged on this planet.
> 
> Huh...   Since Islam is a dangerous, tyrannical political cult, designed as such from foundation... and since the purpose of the human being is to live free toward the pursuit of the fulfillment of its life, it therefore follows that the soundly reasoned understanding that Islam is a clear and present threat to one's life, that the rejection of such is perfectly reasonable, therefore not a potential 'phobia'.
> 
> It further follows that the projection that the rejection of Islam is irrational, is, in and of itself, irrational and bears out the reasonable conclusion that Islam is a threat and should be rejected by all culture's which desire to remain viable... .
> 
> Simple stuff.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Simpler stuff:  Do you or have you ever had any friends, friendly acquaintances, co-workers, or neighbors who were Muslim? Have you ever in your life spent so much as two hours at one stretch talking to a Muslim person?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Oh... so you're needing to conflate the least common denominator of a cult, which *was founded as a mass-murdering political machine and is presently engaged and wholly responsible for EVERY WAR PRESENTLY IN PROCESS ON THE PLANET,* as a means to project the less threatening traits of the individual Muslim, so as to distract from the incontestable threat from the Islamic whole?
> 
> 
> LOL!  Adorable... .
> 
> But to answer your question: yes, I've personally known many Muslims and they ran the gamut from total douche to douche-lites... with none of them being what I would consider 'decent human beings'.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I suggest you do some research.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> ROFLMNAO!  Adorable...  Notice how the projection is that "Research" will bear out the oppositions point of view.  Clearly another student of logic has come on the scene.
> 
> 10 pts to anyone who can explain the fatal flaw in the member's construct.
Click to expand...


Umn...no.  A little research will show you that not all the current conflicts around the world involve Islam.

Also - a reminder.  This thread is occurring in the Clean Debate Zone.


----------



## Coyote

Papageorgio said:


> CAIR is purposely going after groups that do not tolerate their views and then brands them as bigots. I think they have no room to talk.



CAIR is going after anti-Muslim bigots.  How is that any different than groups like the ADL going after anti-semites or the NAACP goig after racists?


----------



## Papageorgio

Coyote said:


> Papageorgio said:
> 
> 
> 
> CAIR is purposely going after groups that do not tolerate their views and then brands them as bigots. I think they have no room to talk.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CAIR is going after anti-Muslim bigots.  How is that any different than groups like the ADL going after anti-semites or the NAACP goig after racists?
Click to expand...


No different when did I post that any of it was right?  CAIR is a bigoted group, can we post their members and people on a website as those dangerous to freedoms?


----------



## Rikurzhen

Coyote said:


> Where_r_my_Keys said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> westwall said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> georgephillip said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> westwall said:
> 
> 
> 
> Good for her.  I have a feeling that there are going to be some very violent outbursts in the UK and that the Muslims are going to be sent home.....those that survive.  I have quite a few friends in the UK and they are getting fed up with it.  The UK government is blissfully ignorant and the pressure is building.
> 
> 
> 
> By pressure do you mean blow-back from Sykes-Picot and the Balfour Declaration? Any Muslim violence in France or England stems directly from Empire and so does the resulting Islamophobia.
> Islamophobia and the Politics of Empire - Deepa Kumar on Reality Asserts Itself 3 5
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No, I mean that the British population is going to rise up and kick them the hell out of the UK.  And Islamic violence in France or the UK stems from the fact that they're there!   The moderates are going to be swept up (unfortunately) along with the violent Islamists and sent packing.  The Brits will take an awful, and for a long time.  But when they see their government abandoning them to this sort of ideology, they will act.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The government has a duty to protect all it's citizens, including it's minorities.  The majority of Britain's Muslim population is perfectly law abiding.  We live under the rule of law - not mob rule and mob violence.  British Muslims have lived in Britain for generations.  They are no less British than British Christians and British Jews and British Buddhists and British Hindus.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Again... we turn toward the fabled individual Muslim as a means to escape accountability for the sum of individual Muslims.
> 
> *The fact is that there are ZERO instances of gangs of Hindus, or Christians or Jews of Buddhists causing ANY trouble, any where, let alone in the name of their religion,* professing a responsibility to do so and proclaiming their determination to force their religion on everyone... . But no END of the examples of gangs of Muslims doing precisely THAT.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> That's flat out wrong.  You need to research religious violence and intolerance around the world.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So one wonders how it is that according to the Left, individual Christians and Jews are filled with hate and malicious intent and individual Muslims are care free, innocent of malice and desirous of nothing but peace on earth.
> 
> Weird... huh?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yes.  Weird.  Work on your research before making really weird broad brush statements like that.
> 
> Everyone - Christian, Jew, Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist etc is an individual first and formost.  I thought that was self-evident.
Click to expand...


Because Europe and America have Christian roots, Christianity doesn't really bother people, but all those other individuals of non-Christian faith now require accommodation and that's an infringement on people.  People are happier when Liberal Totalitarians aren't stomping their jackboots on their freedoms. You have police in the UK arresting, and courts convicting, people for speech deemed "hateful."

In Canada, the Supreme Court has ruled that truth is no longer a defense in court.

All of this totalitarianism chips away at tolerance and the totalitarianism in necessary in order to make multiculturalism work.

If a Muslim wants to stay a Muslim who should live in an Islamic nation. If a Christian, or post-Christian, Western lifestyle doesn't appeal to him, then he shouldn't have chosen to immigrate to the Christian West.


----------



## Dogmaphobe

Coyote said:


> Also - a reminder.  This thread is occurring in the Clean Debate Zone.



Did it start off there?


----------



## westwall

Where_r_my_Keys said:


> Where_r_my_Keys said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> westwall said:
> 
> 
> 
> ... No LEGAL SYSTEM has ever had as it's primary remit, "justice".  Justice is merely a secondary effect.  In other words, justice can only happen if a law has been broken.  Laws are passed to MAINTAIN ORDER.
> 
> Do you get that?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No?
> 
> LOL!
> 
> Again friends... THIS is why the tolerance of Left-think was a catastrophic error on the part of our grand parents...
> 
> Let's review the 'primary remit' [sic] of the US Legal SYSTEM:
> 
> "We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America."
> 
> The Americans will recognize it, the Leftists will need to google it... take your time kids.  We'll wait on ya.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> westwall said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Where_r_my_Keys said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> westwall said:
> 
> 
> 
> I am a Scottish American.  I have relatives in Scotland.  My wife is French American.  She has relatives all over France.  We still practice those traditions that were begun centuries ago that are relevant to our homeland.  We even travel back to our collective homelands on a regular basis.  We honor where we came from.  We also honor where we are and follow the laws of our new home.
> 
> That is multiculturalism personified.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> That is denial personified.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And you are free to think that way.  Isn't America grand!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yes I am free to think.  As are you.
> 
> What you clearly do not understand is that your refusal to do so is a failure on your part to bear the responsibilities that sustain your means to exercise your rights.
> 
> But you seem like a decent enough human being... and you at least possess the means to hold a civil discussion, which is a rarity among 'moderates'.
Click to expand...






The difference is most "moderates" aren't.  They are progressives.  Progressives ARE the enemy.  I am a liberal Democrat, but I also have a brain and I despise extremism of any nature.  I must confess though,  I don't have any idea what you mean by "failure on your part to bear the responsibilities that sustain your means to exercise your rights."


----------



## westwall

Rikurzhen said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Where_r_my_Keys said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> westwall said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> georgephillip said:
> 
> 
> 
> By pressure do you mean blow-back from Sykes-Picot and the Balfour Declaration? Any Muslim violence in France or England stems directly from Empire and so does the resulting Islamophobia.
> Islamophobia and the Politics of Empire - Deepa Kumar on Reality Asserts Itself 3 5
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No, I mean that the British population is going to rise up and kick them the hell out of the UK.  And Islamic violence in France or the UK stems from the fact that they're there!   The moderates are going to be swept up (unfortunately) along with the violent Islamists and sent packing.  The Brits will take an awful, and for a long time.  But when they see their government abandoning them to this sort of ideology, they will act.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The government has a duty to protect all it's citizens, including it's minorities.  The majority of Britain's Muslim population is perfectly law abiding.  We live under the rule of law - not mob rule and mob violence.  British Muslims have lived in Britain for generations.  They are no less British than British Christians and British Jews and British Buddhists and British Hindus.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Again... we turn toward the fabled individual Muslim as a means to escape accountability for the sum of individual Muslims.
> 
> *The fact is that there are ZERO instances of gangs of Hindus, or Christians or Jews of Buddhists causing ANY trouble, any where, let alone in the name of their religion,* professing a responsibility to do so and proclaiming their determination to force their religion on everyone... . But no END of the examples of gangs of Muslims doing precisely THAT.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> That's flat out wrong.  You need to research religious violence and intolerance around the world.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So one wonders how it is that according to the Left, individual Christians and Jews are filled with hate and malicious intent and individual Muslims are care free, innocent of malice and desirous of nothing but peace on earth.
> 
> Weird... huh?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yes.  Weird.  Work on your research before making really weird broad brush statements like that.
> 
> Everyone - Christian, Jew, Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist etc is an individual first and formost.  I thought that was self-evident.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Because Europe and America have Christian roots, Christianity doesn't really bother people, but all those other individuals of non-Christian faith now require accommodation and that's an infringement on people.  People are happier when Liberal Totalitarians aren't stomping their jackboots on their freedoms. You have police in the UK arresting, and courts convicting, people for speech deemed "hateful."
> 
> In Canada, the Supreme Court has ruled that truth is no longer a defense in court.
> 
> All of this totalitarianism chips away at tolerance and the totalitarianism in necessary in order to make multiculturalism work.
> 
> If a Muslim wants to stay a Muslim who should live in an Islamic nation. If a Christian, or post-Christian, Western lifestyle doesn't appeal to him, then he shouldn't have chosen to immigrate to the Christian West.
Click to expand...






Before Christianity supplanted Druidism _*it *_was the foundational religion of Europe.  Thus religion doesn't have a place in this discussion.  This discussion is about multiculturalism (which exists absent religion in many cultures) and what it truly means.  Totalitarianism DOESN'T make multiculturalism work.  It destroys it and replaces it with ONE culture.  You need to read a ton more history.


----------



## westwall

Dogmaphobe said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> Also - a reminder.  This thread is occurring in the Clean Debate Zone.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Did it start off there?
Click to expand...





Yup.


----------



## Rikurzhen

westwall said:


> Rikurzhen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Where_r_my_Keys said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> westwall said:
> 
> 
> 
> No, I mean that the British population is going to rise up and kick them the hell out of the UK.  And Islamic violence in France or the UK stems from the fact that they're there!   The moderates are going to be swept up (unfortunately) along with the violent Islamists and sent packing.  The Brits will take an awful, and for a long time.  But when they see their government abandoning them to this sort of ideology, they will act.
> 
> 
> 
> The government has a duty to protect all it's citizens, including it's minorities.  The majority of Britain's Muslim population is perfectly law abiding.  We live under the rule of law - not mob rule and mob violence.  British Muslims have lived in Britain for generations.  They are no less British than British Christians and British Jews and British Buddhists and British Hindus.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Again... we turn toward the fabled individual Muslim as a means to escape accountability for the sum of individual Muslims.
> 
> *The fact is that there are ZERO instances of gangs of Hindus, or Christians or Jews of Buddhists causing ANY trouble, any where, let alone in the name of their religion,* professing a responsibility to do so and proclaiming their determination to force their religion on everyone... . But no END of the examples of gangs of Muslims doing precisely THAT.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> That's flat out wrong.  You need to research religious violence and intolerance around the world.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So one wonders how it is that according to the Left, individual Christians and Jews are filled with hate and malicious intent and individual Muslims are care free, innocent of malice and desirous of nothing but peace on earth.
> 
> Weird... huh?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yes.  Weird.  Work on your research before making really weird broad brush statements like that.
> 
> Everyone - Christian, Jew, Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist etc is an individual first and formost.  I thought that was self-evident.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Because Europe and America have Christian roots, Christianity doesn't really bother people, but all those other individuals of non-Christian faith now require accommodation and that's an infringement on people.  People are happier when Liberal Totalitarians aren't stomping their jackboots on their freedoms. You have police in the UK arresting, and courts convicting, people for speech deemed "hateful."
> 
> In Canada, the Supreme Court has ruled that truth is no longer a defense in court.
> 
> All of this totalitarianism chips away at tolerance and the totalitarianism in necessary in order to make multiculturalism work.
> 
> If a Muslim wants to stay a Muslim who should live in an Islamic nation. If a Christian, or post-Christian, Western lifestyle doesn't appeal to him, then he shouldn't have chosen to immigrate to the Christian West.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Before Christianity supplanted Druidism _*it *_was the foundational religion of Europe.  Thus religion doesn't have a place in this discussion.
Click to expand...


European culture is built on a foundation of Christianity, whether or not people practice the religion. Christmas is a holiday, so is Easter. Sunday is a day of rest.

Religion which binds people together is a form of culture, the spiritual aspect is irrelevant.



> This discussion is about multiculturalism (which exists absent religion in many cultures) and what it truly means.  Totalitarianism DOESN'T make multiculturalism work.  It destroys it and replaces it with ONE culture.  You need to read a ton more history.



I'm pretty confident that I know more about cultures and history than you. A number of people have told you that you don't even understand the terms of this debate, that's how glaring your errors have been.

Look at how you completely misunderstand totalitarian tactics in support of multiculturalism. You don't even understand what multiculturalism MEANS so you're very poorly positioned to be critiquing downstream processes which intersect with multiculturalism.


----------



## Mojo2

Coyote said:


> Where_r_my_Keys said:
> 
> 
> 
> There's no such thing as the Korean War.  You're speaking of the on-going dispute between the communist North Koreans and the soundly reasoned, sustainable culture of South Korea... who are presently at a 60 year old stand off.
> 
> *But if it helps, Islam is a religious extension of secularism (Left-think), *which is why you, as a secularist... are in here wetting your pant, over a cult which would erase you for nothing more than your public professions regarding the normalization of sexual abnormality... and this despite the disproportional instances of sexual abnormality common to Islam.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This makes no sense.  Islam is an old and established religion that is quite the opposite of "secularism" and can hardly be called "Left" - it's typically pretty conservative.
Click to expand...


XXXXXXXXXXX - this is the CDZ debate area.  Review the rules please.


----------



## Mojo2

westwall said:


> Rikurzhen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Where_r_my_Keys said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> westwall said:
> 
> 
> 
> No, I mean that the British population is going to rise up and kick them the hell out of the UK.  And Islamic violence in France or the UK stems from the fact that they're there!   The moderates are going to be swept up (unfortunately) along with the violent Islamists and sent packing.  The Brits will take an awful, and for a long time.  But when they see their government abandoning them to this sort of ideology, they will act.
> 
> 
> 
> The government has a duty to protect all it's citizens, including it's minorities.  The majority of Britain's Muslim population is perfectly law abiding.  We live under the rule of law - not mob rule and mob violence.  British Muslims have lived in Britain for generations.  They are no less British than British Christians and British Jews and British Buddhists and British Hindus.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Again... we turn toward the fabled individual Muslim as a means to escape accountability for the sum of individual Muslims.
> 
> *The fact is that there are ZERO instances of gangs of Hindus, or Christians or Jews of Buddhists causing ANY trouble, any where, let alone in the name of their religion,* professing a responsibility to do so and proclaiming their determination to force their religion on everyone... . But no END of the examples of gangs of Muslims doing precisely THAT.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> That's flat out wrong.  You need to research religious violence and intolerance around the world.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So one wonders how it is that according to the Left, individual Christians and Jews are filled with hate and malicious intent and individual Muslims are care free, innocent of malice and desirous of nothing but peace on earth.
> 
> Weird... huh?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yes.  Weird.  Work on your research before making really weird broad brush statements like that.
> 
> Everyone - Christian, Jew, Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist etc is an individual first and formost.  I thought that was self-evident.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Because Europe and America have Christian roots, Christianity doesn't really bother people, but all those other individuals of non-Christian faith now require accommodation and that's an infringement on people.  People are happier when Liberal Totalitarians aren't stomping their jackboots on their freedoms. You have police in the UK arresting, and courts convicting, people for speech deemed "hateful."
> 
> In Canada, the Supreme Court has ruled that truth is no longer a defense in court.
> 
> All of this totalitarianism chips away at tolerance and the totalitarianism in necessary in order to make multiculturalism work.
> 
> If a Muslim wants to stay a Muslim who should live in an Islamic nation. If a Christian, or post-Christian, Western lifestyle doesn't appeal to him, then he shouldn't have chosen to immigrate to the Christian West.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Before Christianity supplanted Druidism _*it *_was the foundational religion of Europe.  Thus religion doesn't have a place in this discussion.  This discussion is about multiculturalism (which exists absent religion in many cultures) and what it truly means.  Totalitarianism DOESN'T make multiculturalism work.  It destroys it and replaces it with ONE culture.  You need to read a ton more history.
Click to expand...


Uh oh.

Look at your "Agree List" and see who agrees with you.

Gulp!

A sign you may not be on the right side of this debate.

Just sayin.


----------



## westwall

Rikurzhen said:


> westwall said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Rikurzhen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Where_r_my_Keys said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> The government has a duty to protect all it's citizens, including it's minorities.  The majority of Britain's Muslim population is perfectly law abiding.  We live under the rule of law - not mob rule and mob violence.  British Muslims have lived in Britain for generations.  They are no less British than British Christians and British Jews and British Buddhists and British Hindus.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Again... we turn toward the fabled individual Muslim as a means to escape accountability for the sum of individual Muslims.
> 
> *The fact is that there are ZERO instances of gangs of Hindus, or Christians or Jews of Buddhists causing ANY trouble, any where, let alone in the name of their religion,* professing a responsibility to do so and proclaiming their determination to force their religion on everyone... . But no END of the examples of gangs of Muslims doing precisely THAT.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> That's flat out wrong.  You need to research religious violence and intolerance around the world.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So one wonders how it is that according to the Left, individual Christians and Jews are filled with hate and malicious intent and individual Muslims are care free, innocent of malice and desirous of nothing but peace on earth.
> 
> Weird... huh?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yes.  Weird.  Work on your research before making really weird broad brush statements like that.
> 
> Everyone - Christian, Jew, Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist etc is an individual first and formost.  I thought that was self-evident.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Because Europe and America have Christian roots, Christianity doesn't really bother people, but all those other individuals of non-Christian faith now require accommodation and that's an infringement on people.  People are happier when Liberal Totalitarians aren't stomping their jackboots on their freedoms. You have police in the UK arresting, and courts convicting, people for speech deemed "hateful."
> 
> In Canada, the Supreme Court has ruled that truth is no longer a defense in court.
> 
> All of this totalitarianism chips away at tolerance and the totalitarianism in necessary in order to make multiculturalism work.
> 
> If a Muslim wants to stay a Muslim who should live in an Islamic nation. If a Christian, or post-Christian, Western lifestyle doesn't appeal to him, then he shouldn't have chosen to immigrate to the Christian West.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Before Christianity supplanted Druidism _*it *_was the foundational religion of Europe.  Thus religion doesn't have a place in this discussion.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> European culture is built on a foundation of Christianity, whether or not people practice the religion. Christmas is a holiday, so is Easter. Sunday is a day of rest.
> 
> Religion which binds people together is a form of culture, the spiritual aspect is irrelevant.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This discussion is about multiculturalism (which exists absent religion in many cultures) and what it truly means.  Totalitarianism DOESN'T make multiculturalism work.  It destroys it and replaces it with ONE culture.  You need to read a ton more history.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I'm pretty confident that I know more about cultures and history than you. A number of people have told you that you don't even understand the terms of this debate, that's how glaring your errors have been.
> 
> Look at how you completely misunderstand totalitarian tactics in support of multiculturalism. You don't even understand what multiculturalism MEANS so you're very poorly positioned to be critiquing downstream processes which intersect with multiculturalism.
Click to expand...






I doubt your assertion quite highly.  I fully understand that I don't agree with YOUR and one other persons definitions (not "a number" as you claim), however I also understand that I am better educated in the history of Europe than you probably ever will be.  My wife's flat on the Isle st. Louis has been in her family for 600 years or so, and my ancestral home in Aberdeen has been in my family for over 1,000 years.  We know the history of our respective areas extremely well.  History has also been a secondary interest of mine for over 50 years.  All this means is I'm older than you, have a different level of education than you, and have probably lived on more continents and in more countries than you.  It's possible I'm wrong, but I doubt it.

I'm certainly not trying to denigrate you in any way, far from it.  I think you and I are quite alike in outlook.  However, it is my belief that you are simply not as well educated on the subject as you think you are.  Feel free to educate me and show to me that I am wrong.  However your fundamental lack of knowledge of totalitarianism, and how it functions, is a serious deficiency.


----------



## westwall

Mojo2 said:


> westwall said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Rikurzhen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Where_r_my_Keys said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> The government has a duty to protect all it's citizens, including it's minorities.  The majority of Britain's Muslim population is perfectly law abiding.  We live under the rule of law - not mob rule and mob violence.  British Muslims have lived in Britain for generations.  They are no less British than British Christians and British Jews and British Buddhists and British Hindus.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Again... we turn toward the fabled individual Muslim as a means to escape accountability for the sum of individual Muslims.
> 
> *The fact is that there are ZERO instances of gangs of Hindus, or Christians or Jews of Buddhists causing ANY trouble, any where, let alone in the name of their religion,* professing a responsibility to do so and proclaiming their determination to force their religion on everyone... . But no END of the examples of gangs of Muslims doing precisely THAT.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> That's flat out wrong.  You need to research religious violence and intolerance around the world.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So one wonders how it is that according to the Left, individual Christians and Jews are filled with hate and malicious intent and individual Muslims are care free, innocent of malice and desirous of nothing but peace on earth.
> 
> Weird... huh?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yes.  Weird.  Work on your research before making really weird broad brush statements like that.
> 
> Everyone - Christian, Jew, Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist etc is an individual first and formost.  I thought that was self-evident.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Because Europe and America have Christian roots, Christianity doesn't really bother people, but all those other individuals of non-Christian faith now require accommodation and that's an infringement on people.  People are happier when Liberal Totalitarians aren't stomping their jackboots on their freedoms. You have police in the UK arresting, and courts convicting, people for speech deemed "hateful."
> 
> In Canada, the Supreme Court has ruled that truth is no longer a defense in court.
> 
> All of this totalitarianism chips away at tolerance and the totalitarianism in necessary in order to make multiculturalism work.
> 
> If a Muslim wants to stay a Muslim who should live in an Islamic nation. If a Christian, or post-Christian, Western lifestyle doesn't appeal to him, then he shouldn't have chosen to immigrate to the Christian West.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Before Christianity supplanted Druidism _*it *_was the foundational religion of Europe.  Thus religion doesn't have a place in this discussion.  This discussion is about multiculturalism (which exists absent religion in many cultures) and what it truly means.  Totalitarianism DOESN'T make multiculturalism work.  It destroys it and replaces it with ONE culture.  You need to read a ton more history.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Uh oh.
> 
> Look at your "Agree List" and see who agrees with you.
> 
> Gulp!
> 
> A sign you may not be on the right side of this debate.
> 
> Just sayin.
Click to expand...




If I cared about who agrees with me I might look at it.  As I don't I won't bother.  My point is that progressivism is the enemy.  A corrupted form of multiculturalism (called cultural relativism) is the tool, and history is my best argument.


----------



## Coyote

Multiculturalism
"*Multiculturalism*" is the co-existence of diverse cultures, where culture includes racial, religious, or cultural groups and is manifested in customary behaviours, cultural assumptions and values, patterns of thinking, and communicative styles.



*Multiculturalism* is the cultural diversity of communities within a given society and the policies that promote this diversity. As a descriptive term, multiculturalism is the simple fact of cultural diversity and the demographic make-up of a specific place, sometimes at the organizational level, e.g., schools, businesses, neighborhoods, cities, or nations. As a prescriptive term, multiculturalism encourages ideologies and policies that promote this diversity or its institutionalization. In this sense, multiculturalism is a society “at ease with the rich tapestry of human life and the desire amongst people to express their own identity in the manner they see fit.”[1]

MULTICULTURALISM is a philosophy that appreciates ethnic diversity within a society and that encourages people to learn from the contributions of those of diverse ethnic backgrounds.


----------



## Rikurzhen

Coyote said:


> Multiculturalism
> "*Multiculturalism*" is the co-existence of diverse cultures, where culture includes racial, religious, or cultural groups and is manifested in customary behaviours, cultural assumptions and values, patterns of thinking, and communicative styles.
> 
> 
> 
> *Multiculturalism* is the cultural diversity of communities within a given society and the policies that promote this diversity. As a descriptive term, multiculturalism is the simple fact of cultural diversity and the demographic make-up of a specific place, sometimes at the organizational level, e.g., schools, businesses, neighborhoods, cities, or nations. As a prescriptive term, multiculturalism encourages ideologies and policies that promote this diversity or its institutionalization. In this sense, multiculturalism is a society “at ease with the rich tapestry of human life and the desire amongst people to express their own identity in the manner they see fit.”[1]
> 
> MULTICULTURALISM is a philosophy that appreciates ethnic diversity within a society and that encourages people to learn from the contributions of those of diverse ethnic backgrounds.


Thanks for helping Westwall with the definition.


----------



## Coyote

When you immigrate to a new land, all that is required is that you follow the laws of that land.  Whether or not you take on the culture, or how much you choose of it - doesn't really matter because eventually you will take on some of the culture or your children will and you will share in return some of the culture of your homeland.  That's the way it usually works if it's left alone to work.


----------



## Unkotare

Where_r_my_Keys said:


> ... In your last 5 posts you've advance four logical fallacies... yet you're wholly ignorant of such.  Proving indisputably that you've ignorant of logic, across the board and on the whole.




You are mistaken. I'm trying to be nice about this.


----------



## westwall

Rikurzhen said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> Multiculturalism
> "*Multiculturalism*" is the co-existence of diverse cultures, where culture includes racial, religious, or cultural groups and is manifested in customary behaviours, cultural assumptions and values, patterns of thinking, and communicative styles.
> 
> 
> 
> *Multiculturalism* is the cultural diversity of communities within a given society and the policies that promote this diversity. As a descriptive term, multiculturalism is the simple fact of cultural diversity and the demographic make-up of a specific place, sometimes at the organizational level, e.g., schools, businesses, neighborhoods, cities, or nations. As a prescriptive term, multiculturalism encourages ideologies and policies that promote this diversity or its institutionalization. In this sense, multiculturalism is a society “at ease with the rich tapestry of human life and the desire amongst people to express their own identity in the manner they see fit.”[1]
> 
> MULTICULTURALISM is a philosophy that appreciates ethnic diversity within a society and that encourages people to learn from the contributions of those of diverse ethnic backgrounds.
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks for helping Westwall with the definition.
Click to expand...







Looks remarkably like what I stated.  Thank you for recognizing that fact.


----------



## Vigilante




----------



## Unkotare

beagle9 said:


> When you get people trying to destroy what the citizenry in a nation had built as a culture together, and is one that is over 200 years old...




"Culture" is not some static construct that remains forever fixed and immutable. Quite the contrary. A lot of y'all don't seem to understand what has always made American _culture_ so exceptional and, in the most important sense, enduring. Getting the point would start with an understanding of history and political science.


----------



## Unkotare

Where_r_my_Keys said:


> You should look words up, so as to familiarize yourself with their meanings, before you use them...




I'm pretty well versed, thanks. Did you bother to educate yourself on the topic as I so kindly suggested?


----------



## Unkotare

Rikurzhen said:


> You're arguing a fondue pot of different melted cheeses when everyone else understands that the issue is a salad bowl of various vegetables.




*biting my tongue*


----------



## Rikurzhen

westwall said:


> Rikurzhen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> Multiculturalism
> "*Multiculturalism*" is the co-existence of diverse cultures, where culture includes racial, religious, or cultural groups and is manifested in customary behaviours, cultural assumptions and values, patterns of thinking, and communicative styles.
> 
> 
> 
> *Multiculturalism* is the cultural diversity of communities within a given society and the policies that promote this diversity. As a descriptive term, multiculturalism is the simple fact of cultural diversity and the demographic make-up of a specific place, sometimes at the organizational level, e.g., schools, businesses, neighborhoods, cities, or nations. As a prescriptive term, multiculturalism encourages ideologies and policies that promote this diversity or its institutionalization. In this sense, multiculturalism is a society “at ease with the rich tapestry of human life and the desire amongst people to express their own identity in the manner they see fit.”[1]
> 
> MULTICULTURALISM is a philosophy that appreciates ethnic diversity within a society and that encourages people to learn from the contributions of those of diverse ethnic backgrounds.
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks for helping Westwall with the definition.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Looks remarkably like what I stated.  Thank you for recognizing that fact.
Click to expand...


Post the definition of Melting Pot and then let's compare your arguments to those two definitions.


----------



## Dogmaphobe

Coyote said:


> CAIR is going after anti-Muslim bigots.  How is that any different than groups like the ADL going after anti-semites or the NAACP goig after racists?



As I pointed out earlier, the ADL resists hatred based upon ethnicity, while the NAACP resists hatred based upon race.  Islamism is neither, as the terrorist support group known as CAIR is seeking out any who tell the truth about their political/religious ideology intent upon world domination and whose official  policy is to kill any who leave the fold. In that aspect, it acts like a dangerous cult.

The application of the word "phobia" to the resistance of a dangerous totalitarian political ideology creates an intentionally false neologism, the purpose of which is to further the agenda involved by making resistance to it more difficult.


----------



## Dogmaphobe

Papageorgio said:


> CAIR is purposely going after groups that do not tolerate their views and then brands them as bigots. I think they have no room to talk.



No, they certainly don't.

 What seems beyond the grasp of many people is how thorough the Islamist intent on domination. Sure, we see Isis doing their thing or Al Qaeda and the other terrorist organizations, but that's just the tip of the iceberg in the war they are waging.  That is just the physical war.   The bigger war is rhetorical, and that is the one they wage with words -- words used to divide us from within, to soften us and to pave the way for Islam.  If they succeed in influencing a good portion of the useful idiot left in siding with them and succeed in making any criticism of what they are doing the stuff of "bigotry", then they are one step closer to their goal. Just look what they have achieved in Britain already.

Islamists play a game that should be familiar to anybody who has ever watched a cop show. Isis now plays the role of bad cop -- a role that has been become increasingly horrific over the years. Meanwhile, the Muslim Brotherhood, CAIR, and other supporters take the role of good cop, a role made easier with ever incremental step the bad cops take as the goalposts keep moving. They want the same thing, and wage the same war, but the approaches are different.  

 People need to wise up as to how Islamists use the internet, especially. They not only have their own websites from which they recruit, but they also have a presence anywhere there is a free exchange of ideas. They are pretty damned serious in fighting their war, and it is high time people took their heads out of the sand and started to realize it doesn't matter if we see ourselves as left or right, liberal or conservative. We need to see ourselves as safeguarding a way of life.  That way of life is under attack.


----------



## georgephillip

*Where did radical Islam find the most support over the past fifty years?

From westerners concerned with controlling the most valuable material prize in history: Middle Eastern oil:
*
"The groundwork for this awful mess of political and religious horrors sweeping through the Middle East was laid – laid deeply – by the United States during 35 years (1979-2014) of overthrowing the secular governments of Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya, and Syria. (Adding to the mess in the same period we should not forget the US endlessly bombing Pakistan, Somalia and Yemen.) 

"You cannot destroy modern, relatively developed and educated societies, ripping apart the social, political, economic and legal fabric, torturing thousands, killing millions, and expect civilization and human decency to survive."

Why You Can Hardly Believe a Word of What You Read About ISIS CounterPunch Tells the Facts Names the Names


----------



## Dogmaphobe

georgephillip said:


> *Where did radical Islam find the most support over the past fifty years?
> 
> From westerners concerned with controlling the most valuable material prize in history: Middle Eastern oil:
> *
> "The groundwork for this awful mess of political and religious horrors sweeping through the Middle East was laid – laid deeply – by the United States during 35 years (1979-2014) of overthrowing the secular governments of Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya, and Syria. (Adding to the mess in the same period we should not forget the US endlessly bombing Pakistan, Somalia and Yemen.)
> 
> "You cannot destroy modern, relatively developed and educated societies, ripping apart the social, political, economic and legal fabric, torturing thousands, killing millions, and expect civilization and human decency to survive."
> 
> Why You Can Hardly Believe a Word of What You Read About ISIS CounterPunch Tells the Facts Names the Names




Spamming the same cut and paste across multiple threads, now, are you?


----------



## georgephillip

Dogmaphobe said:


> georgephillip said:
> 
> 
> 
> *Where did radical Islam find the most support over the past fifty years?
> 
> From westerners concerned with controlling the most valuable material prize in history: Middle Eastern oil:
> *
> "The groundwork for this awful mess of political and religious horrors sweeping through the Middle East was laid – laid deeply – by the United States during 35 years (1979-2014) of overthrowing the secular governments of Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya, and Syria. (Adding to the mess in the same period we should not forget the US endlessly bombing Pakistan, Somalia and Yemen.)
> 
> "You cannot destroy modern, relatively developed and educated societies, ripping apart the social, political, economic and legal fabric, torturing thousands, killing millions, and expect civilization and human decency to survive."
> 
> Why You Can Hardly Believe a Word of What You Read About ISIS CounterPunch Tells the Facts Names the Names
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Spamming the same cut and paste across multiple threads, now, are you?
Click to expand...

What's your problem,
Don't have an answer?


----------



## Dogmaphobe

georgephillip said:


> What's your problem,
> Don't have an answer?




The subject of this thread is the stupid neologism "Islamophobia" and the role CAIR is playing in fostering it.

I see no need to respond to a cut and paste from such a dodgy website as the infantile counterpunch.    If you are so completely incapable of offering an original thought, why would you expect others to offer theirs?


----------



## georgephillip

Dogmaphobe said:


> georgephillip said:
> 
> 
> 
> What's your problem,
> Don't have an answer?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The subject of this thread is the stupid neologism "Islamophobia" and the role CAIR is playing in fostering it.
> 
> I see no need to respond to a cut and paste from such a dodgy website as the infantile counterpunch.    If you are so completely incapable of offering an original thought, why would you expect others to offer theirs?
Click to expand...

*I haven't noticed any evidence of thought, original or otherwise, in anything you've posted, so far, and you're apparently incapable of distinguishing content from context. The author of my link holds the same view I do regarding US support for radical Islam from the Muslim Brotherhood to IS; are you disputing that or wasting bandwidth?
*
"_*William Blum* is the author of Killing Hope: U.S. Military and CIA Interventions Since World War II, Rogue State: a guide to the World’s Only Super Power . His latest book is: America’s Deadliest Export: Democracy. He can be reached at: BBlum6@aol.com."

Why You Can Hardly Believe a Word of What You Read About ISIS CounterPunch Tells the Facts Names the Names_


----------



## Kondor3

Coyote said:


> ...Good for CAIR. Southern Policy Law Center has a list of anti-Muslim hate groups.  Quite a bit of overlap.  It's about time folks started challenging these charlatans in the open.  Jews and Blacks are well ahead of the curve in exposing anti-semites and racists masquerading as "legitimately concerned" citizens and patriots...


The difference between the American perspective on Muslims, and the American perspectives on Jews and Blacks?

































I'd say that CAIR has a slightly larger P(ublic) R(elations) problem than similar Jewish or Black -focused organizations.

Then again, if I was an organization with known close ties - past and/or present - to Radical-Militant Islamist organizations - I'd be tempted to hide behind advocacy on behalf of religious egalitarianism and equivalency, myself.


----------



## beagle9

Coyote said:


> Rikurzhen said:
> 
> 
> 
> The first group was NEVER ASKED to share community with the second group. A silent coup IMPOSED the second group onto the first group.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What exactly do you mean by that?  They weren't asked to come to Britain?  Well...imo...too bad.  Britain colonized their nations, stripped them of their resources, discouraged value-added industries and made them subjects of the crown.  Then they left but they left in place the common wealth.  I'm sure they, in India, Kenya, Pakistan, Wassutistan what ever WEREN'T asked to share community with the Brits were they?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Immigrants don't say "You know, those bowler hats and the bubbles and squeak, are sure attractive and I want to abandon my culture and faith and become British and Christian. I'm going to immigrate to Britain in order to become British because I so admire British culture."  This formulation isn't so troublesome. This formulation though is almost never seen anymore.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Well fortunately for Britain - many of her immigrants do enjoy the British culture - civil rights, democratic values etc.  As far as religious conversion - that's the first I've heard of it.  Do you demand that of British Jews as well?  Hindus?  Buddhists?  Immigrants bring their own culture and blend it with that of their new country.  I'm an American and that has ceratinly been the case in my country. It may not be the first generation, but it often is by the second.  IMO - the only thing required of immigrants is that they follow our laws when they adopt our country.  Typically both sides are enriched by the immigrant experience.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What we see instead is the above - the keeping of native culture and religion and co-locating that religion and culture alongside British culture in the UK. This is a recipe for war. Different peoples, different faith, different cultures, different attitudes are far more abrasive than the same people, of the same faith, the same culture and same attitudes living alongside each other.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> *You can not demand that people reject their faith.*  If so - you should be required to reject Christianity as that is not a native British faith.
Click to expand...


You certainly can demand that any group not use their faith as a tool to justify violence against others in the name of that faith.


----------



## Unkotare

Where_r_my_Keys said:


> The fact is that there are ZERO instances of gangs of Hindus, or Christians or Jews of Buddhists causing ANY trouble, any where...





That statement is absurdly inaccurate. 



Indians push to tame Hindu-Muslim rioting with new bill - The Washington Post


BBC News - Why are Buddhist monks attacking Muslims


----------



## skye

Coyote said:


> skye said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Figaro said:
> 
> 
> 
> The Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR) today launched Islamophobia.org, the latest element in the Muslim civil rights organization's work to monitor and challenge the growing anti-Muslim bigotry in American society.
> 
> CAIR's Islamophobia.org site presents detailed profiles of a number of individuals and institutions involved in the American Islamophobia network.
> 
> You may follow the link to get rid of your Islamophobia
> Islamophobia is closed-minded prejudice against or hatred of Islam and Muslims. - Islamophobia
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It doesn't surprise  me at all that CAIR is launching that site, it's just the same old false propaganda to lure the naive fans of Islam.
> 
> It's taqiyya pure and simple.
> 
> CAIR is a radical organization and to quote its chairman Omar M. Ahmad, - "*Islam isn't in America to be equal to any other faith,but to become dominant. The Koran...........should be the highest authority in America, and Islam the only accepted religion on earth." * (this was reported by the San Ramon Valley Herald in July 1998)
> 
> What more can be said about CAIR.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> What's the entire quote and context?  What makes CAIR "radical"?
Click to expand...



If you are unaware of CAIR's true agenda and its past history, it is suggested that you do  some very necessary research so that you are not blinded by CAIR's propaganda.

I have already given you the reference for the quote.


----------



## Coyote

Kondor3 said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...Good for CAIR. Southern Policy Law Center has a list of anti-Muslim hate groups.  Quite a bit of overlap.  It's about time folks started challenging these charlatans in the open.  Jews and Blacks are well ahead of the curve in exposing anti-semites and racists masquerading as "legitimately concerned" citizens and patriots...
> 
> 
> 
> The difference between the American perspective on Muslims, and the American perspectives on Jews and Blacks?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'd say that CAIR has a slightly larger P(ublic) R(elations) problem than similar Jewish or Black -focused organizations.
> 
> Then again, if I was an organization with known close ties - past and/or present - to Radical-Militant Islamist organizations - I'd be tempted to hide behind advocacy on behalf of religious egalitarianism and equivalency, myself.
Click to expand...


A handful of Muslim terrorists - TERRORISTS - conducted this act. *Frankly, I get sick and tired of people using this imagery in an attempt to stoke intolerance and justify hate- the same kind of hatred that drove those terrorists to do what they did*.  It's a slap in the face to the people who suffered and died in that event - and who included amongsyt their number Muslims.

CAIR is doing what needs to be done.  Some one needs to turn over these stones publically and expose the hate groups for what they are.


----------



## Coyote

Dogmaphobe said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> CAIR is going after anti-Muslim bigots.  How is that any different than groups like the ADL going after anti-semites or the NAACP goig after racists?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As I pointed out earlier, the ADL resists hatred based upon ethnicity, while the NAACP resists hatred based upon race.  Islamism is neither, as the terrorist support group known as CAIR is seeking out any who tell the truth about their political/religious ideology intent upon world domination and whose official  policy is to kill any who leave the fold. In that aspect, it acts like a dangerous cult.
> 
> The application of the word "phobia" to the resistance of a dangerous totalitarian political ideology creates an intentionally false neologism, the purpose of which is to further the agenda involved by making resistance to it more difficult.
Click to expand...


Actually - the ADL is as much about religion as race - it is debatable as to whether Jews constitute a unique racial group but they are a distinct religion and it is that religion that identifies them - whether they are  black, semitic, European, or converts.  Like Judaism, Islam is a religion.

How is CAIR a "terrorist support group"?

You mention "Islamism" - is that to indicate a difference from Islam in general?

I don't particularly care for the term "Islamophobia" - a term like anti-semitism would be more accurate.  Maybe anti-muslim bigotry is more appropirate.


----------



## Kondor3

Coyote said:


> Kondor3 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...Good for CAIR. Southern Policy Law Center has a list of anti-Muslim hate groups.  Quite a bit of overlap.  It's about time folks started challenging these charlatans in the open.  Jews and Blacks are well ahead of the curve in exposing anti-semites and racists masquerading as "legitimately concerned" citizens and patriots...
> 
> 
> 
> The difference between the American perspective on Muslims, and the American perspectives on Jews and Blacks?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'd say that CAIR has a slightly larger P(ublic) R(elations) problem than similar Jewish or Black -focused organizations.
> 
> Then again, if I was an organization with known close ties - past and/or present - to Radical-Militant Islamist organizations - I'd be tempted to hide behind advocacy on behalf of religious egalitarianism and equivalency, myself.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> A handful of Muslim terrorists - TERRORISTS - conducted this act. *Frankly, I get sick and tired of people using this imagery in an attempt to stoke intolerance and justify hate- the same kind of hatred that drove those terrorists to do what they did*.  It's a slap in the face to the people who suffered and died in that event - and who included amongsyt their number Muslims.
> 
> CAIR is doing what needs to be done.  Some one needs to turn over these stones publically and expose the hate groups for what they are.
Click to expand...

Frankly, I get sick and tired of Muslim apologists slamming people who use such imagery, to remind Americans of what they're up against - what an intolerant, hostile, alien, misogynistic political and cultural system disguised as a half-plagiarist / half-hallucinatory religious vision - is capable of doing.

It's a slap in the face to the people who suffered and died in that event - the vast majority of whom were Christians, and Jews - and other faiths, and nonbelievers as well.

CAIR will be largely ignored by the American People, who know better than to be taken in by these hucksters.

Lest we forget.


----------



## Dogmaphobe

Coyote said:


> CAIR is doing what needs to be done........  .



To pave the way for the jackboot of Islamism to rein supreme.

 You may be sick and tired of those who resist the totalitarian cult for which you ply your craft, but those Americans who do not wish to live in the Hell hole you wish it to be have every right to object.


----------



## Coyote

There is an actual Right Wing Playbook designed to promote anti-Islamic bigotry and intolerance through deliberate fear mongering and disinformation.  So many of the standard arguments seem to include these tactics.

PFAW Report The Right Wing Playbook on Anti-Muslim Extremism People For the American Way



> Right-Wing extremists are leading a sustained attack against American Muslims, *attempting to prevent them from freely practicing their religion, curtail their political rights, and in some cases, compel their deportation,* according to a new report by People For the American Way. The report lays out how the Right Wing is *using a set of specific strategies to stir up destructive fears, and as a result are putting our fundamental tradition of equality and justice at risk*. The report, *The Right Wing Playbook on Anti-Muslim Extremism*, identifies the scare tactics used by the Right Wing to conjure up anti-Muslim sentiment in the United States and outlines some ways that concerned Americans can push back against anti-Muslim extremism.
> 
> “Right-wing activists, elected officials and even some presidential candidates have launched an overt assault on American Muslims, *using a religious minority as a scapegoat for any number of national fears and frustrations*,” said Michael Keegan, President of People For the American Way. “In doing so, they compromise some of our dearest national values. Anti-Muslim extremists and the political leaders who repeat their talking points are spreading baseless and destructive fears and explicitly disregarding the Constitution’s guarantee of freedom of religion and equal treatment under the law.”
> 
> The report discusses eight strategies employed by anti-Muslim activists to cast doubt on the validity of Islam as a religion and the integrity of American Muslims in order to justify prejudice and illegal discrimination:
> 
> 
> *Framing American Muslims as dangerous to America*
> *Twisting statistics and using fake research to “prove” the Muslim threat*
> *Inventing the danger of “creeping Sharia”*
> *Justifying taking away freedoms and liberties from Muslims in order to “defend liberty”*
> *Denying the validity of Islam as a religion*
> *Arguing that Muslims have no First Amendment rights under the Constitution*
> *Linking anti-Muslim prejudice to anti-Obama rhetoric*
> *Slandering progressives and non-Christians as unholy and anti-American*


----------



## Coyote

Dogmaphobe said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> CAIR is doing what needs to be done........  .
> 
> 
> 
> 
> To pave the way for the jackboot of Islamism to rein supreme.
> 
> You may be sick and tired of those who resist the totalitarian cult for which you ply your craft, but those Americans who do not wish to live in the Hell hole you wish it to be have every right to object.
Click to expand...


So what do you propose?  Genocide?  Mass deportation of all Muslims from western countries?  Outlawing an entire religion because you don't like it?

Unlike you - I support our Constitution.  I support the liberties, values, and civil rights that are part and parcel of our system of government and society.  The same liberties, values and civil rights embraced by American Muslims.  This is what you are calling a "Hell hole".  I consider myself blessed to be in it and to be a part of it.


----------



## Kondor3

Coyote said:


> There is an actual Right Wing Playbook designed to promote anti-Islamic bigotry and intolerance through deliberate fear mongering and disinformation.  So many of the standard arguments seem to include these tactics....


And then there are *vast* numbers of sensible Americans who feel highly suspicious and unfriendly towards Muslims, without the slightest prompting whatsoever.

Probably has something to do with a 1300-year -long history of Muslim conquest and bloodletting and forcing other religious practitioners underground or into Dhimmitude and being the prime movers in the African Slave Trade and being collectively manifestly hostile to Christianity and Judaism and giving their practitioners permission to make war and to commit violence against others who do not believe in their version of the godhead and who grotesquely subordinate and disenfranchise women, etc. - primitives, alien to The West, members of a potentially violent religious sect which despises and seeks to overcome and transform The West.

We in The West are not fooled.

We merely need to have the courage to stand-up to phony-baloney charges of bigotry, when the so-called 'religion' which you promote and/or protect is the worst bigotry of all.


----------



## Kondor3

Vigilante said:


>






 "_It's easy, if you try_..."


----------



## ScienceRocks

Of course they will never condemn the radicals teaching violence against America...but we have to shut up and take it.

Liberals are foolish people.


----------



## Dogmaphobe

Coyote said:


> Right-Wing extremists are leading a sustained attack against American Muslims, *attempting to prevent them from freely practicing their religion, curtail their political rights, and in some cases, compel their deportation,* ]




Nobody here has prevented you from practicing your religion, nor have they curtailed any of your political rights or compelled your deportation.

Your political-religious ideology is a free choice -- at least in this country -- and since it is a free choice, it is subject to the same scrutiny afforded any other ideology. You wish to prevent the right to scrutinize this choice by all your name calling about a "phobia" and "bigotry" in an attempt to silence people into submission -- and I do use that word intentionally -- but Many Americans are tired of all the bull shit you people offer as you try to gain control and subvert our way of life.

What patent temerity it takes  to talk about the American way while attempting to destroy it.


----------



## Unkotare

Coyote said:


> *Frankly, I get sick and tired of people using this imagery in an attempt to stoke intolerance and justify hate- the same kind of hatred that drove those terrorists to do what they did*.  It's a slap in the face to the people who suffered and died in that event - and who included amongsyt their number Muslims.
> 
> CAIR is doing what needs to be done.  Some one needs to turn over these stones publically and expose the hate groups for what they are.





I understand the point you are trying to make, but in this instance you are hitching your wagon to the wrong donkey. That particular group really does have a pretty obvious and less-than-pure agenda.


----------



## Dogmaphobe

Coyote said:


> So what do you propose?  Genocide?  Mass deportation of all Muslims from western countries?  Outlawing an entire religion because you don't like it?
> 
> Unlike you - I support our Constitution.  I support the liberties, values, and civil rights that are part and parcel of our system of government and society.  The same liberties, values and civil rights embraced by American Muslims.  This is what you are calling a "Hell hole".  I consider myself blessed to be in it and to be a part of it.



Yes -- opposing your political ideology is definitely the same thing as suggesting your genocide


----------



## Coyote

Dogmaphobe said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> Right-Wing extremists are leading a sustained attack against American Muslims, *attempting to prevent them from freely practicing their religion, curtail their political rights, and in some cases, compel their deportation,* ]
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Nobody here has prevented you from practicing your religion, nor have they curtailed any of your political rights or compelled your deportation.
Click to expand...


"My religion"?  You do not know my religion.  My religious views have no more bearing on this issue than do yours.

Here are some examples supporting the point I made.

Even in this thread there are people arguing that Islam is "not a religion" - it's a "cult", it's a "political system" which essentially means it has not First Amendment protections.

Opponents of a proposed community center and mosque in Murfeesboro, TN attempted to use that argument in a legal challenge to stop the mosque from being built arguing that because Islam is not a religion, Muslim-Americans are not protected under the First Amendment.

Tennessee's governor weighed in:

_Ron Ramsey, the lieutenant governor of Tennessee, has been criticized by an Islamic leader for questioning whether Islam is a cult and if the world's second-largest religion is eligible for protection under the U.S. Constitution. 

During a campaign stop in Chattanooga earlier this month, Ramsey, a Republican candidate for governor, said, "You could even argue whether that being a Muslim is actually a religion, or is it a nationality, way of life, cult or whatever you want to call it."

"Now certainly, we do protect our religions, but at the same time this is something we are going to have to face," Ramsey said._​
Lt. Gen. Jerry Boykin (former Deputy Under Secretary of Defense for Intelligence):
_
We need to realize that Islam itself is not just a religion - it is a totalitarian way of life. It's a legal system, sharia law; it's a financial system; it's a moral code; it's a political system; it's a military system. It should not be protected under the First Amendment, particularly given that those following the dictates of the Quran are under an obligation to destroy our Constitution and replace it with sharia law._​


> Your political-religious ideology is a free choice -- at least in this country -- and since it is a free choice, it is subject to the same scrutiny afforded any other ideology.



Any religion is subject to scrutiny.  What is your point?  Are you calling religions "ideologies"?  Calling it a "political-religious ideology" is a nice example of people attempting to claim Islam is not a religion and thus strip it of it's First Amendment protections.  Disgusting.



> You wish to prevent the right to scrutinize this choice by all your name calling about a "phobia" and "bigotry" in an attempt to silence people into submission -- and I do use that word intentionally -- but Many Americans are tired of all the bull shit you people offer as you try to gain control and subvert our way of life.



Name calling?  I'm going to make a suggestion here dogma.  Examine your own tactics and rhetoric before attacking others.  In other words, remove the log from your eye.

Who are "you people"?



> What patent temerity it takes  to talk about the American way while attempting to destroy it.



It is not I who is "attempting to destroy it".


----------



## Coyote

Unkotare said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> *Frankly, I get sick and tired of people using this imagery in an attempt to stoke intolerance and justify hate- the same kind of hatred that drove those terrorists to do what they did*.  It's a slap in the face to the people who suffered and died in that event - and who included amongsyt their number Muslims.
> 
> CAIR is doing what needs to be done.  Some one needs to turn over these stones publically and expose the hate groups for what they are.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I understand the point you are trying to make, but in this instance you are hitching your wagon to the wrong donkey. That particular group really does have a pretty obvious and less-than-pure agenda.
Click to expand...


Perhaps you are right Unk...

But someone needs to make a concerted effort to expose these hate groups and counter their rhetoric.  It's dangerous - it mimics the rhetoric used to scapegoat the Jews in the 1930's and any other convenient and poorly understood minority.


----------



## Coyote

Dogmaphobe said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> So what do you propose?  Genocide?  Mass deportation of all Muslims from western countries?  Outlawing an entire religion because you don't like it?
> 
> Unlike you - I support our Constitution.  I support the liberties, values, and civil rights that are part and parcel of our system of government and society.  The same liberties, values and civil rights embraced by American Muslims.  This is what you are calling a "Hell hole".  I consider myself blessed to be in it and to be a part of it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes -- opposing your political ideology is definitely the same thing as suggesting your genocide
Click to expand...


Islam is a religion dude.  Put down the talking points.

_Islam - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia
*Islam* (/ˈɪslɑːm/;[note 1] Arabic: *الإسلام*‎, al-ʾIslām  IPA: [ælʔɪsˈlæːm] (

 listen)[note 2]) is a monotheistic and Abrahamic religion articulated by the Qur'an, a book considered by its adherents to be the verbatim word of God[1] (Arabic: الله‎ Allāh, IPA: [ʔalˤˈlˤɑːh] (

 listen)) and by the teachings and normative example (called the Sunnah and composed of hadith) of Muhammad (c. 570 CE – c. 8 June 632 CE), considered by them to be the last prophet of God. An adherent of Islam is called a Muslim.


Muslims believe that God is one and incomparable[2] and the purpose of existence is to worship God.[3] Muslims also believe that Islam is the complete and universal version of a primordial faith that was revealed before many times throughout the world, including notably through Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, and Jesus, whom they consider prophets.[4] They maintain that the previous messages and revelations have been partially misinterpreted or altered over time,[5] but consider the Arabic Qur'an to be both the unaltered and the final revelation of God.[6] Religious concepts and practices include the five pillars of Islam, which are basic concepts and obligatory acts of worship, and following Islamic law, which touches on virtually every aspect of life and society, providing guidance on multifarious topics from banking and welfare, to family life and the environment.[7][8]_


Of course, attempting to define it as something else is the first step towards removing First Amendment Protections for American Muslims and curtailing their rights to worship freely in this country and I'm sure would open the door for persecution.​


----------



## Dogmaphobe

Coyote said:


> Name calling?  .




Yes, name calling.

You call people an "Islamophobe" or a "bigot"  for resisting your totalitarian politico-religious views even though you have chosen such views of your own volition.


----------



## Dogmaphobe

Coyote said:


> Islam is a religion dude.  Put down the talking points.
> _Islam -  following Islamic law, which touches on virtually every aspect of life and society, providing guidance on multifarious topics from banking and welfare, to family life and the environment.[7][8]_​




Which any honest person realizes is POLITICAL  --  ISLAMIC LAW.  

DUH!


----------



## Papageorgio

Coyote said:


> Kondor3 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...Good for CAIR. Southern Policy Law Center has a list of anti-Muslim hate groups.  Quite a bit of overlap.  It's about time folks started challenging these charlatans in the open.  Jews and Blacks are well ahead of the curve in exposing anti-semites and racists masquerading as "legitimately concerned" citizens and patriots...
> 
> 
> 
> The difference between the American perspective on Muslims, and the American perspectives on Jews and Blacks?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'd say that CAIR has a slightly larger P(ublic) R(elations) problem than similar Jewish or Black -focused organizations.
> 
> Then again, if I was an organization with known close ties - past and/or present - to Radical-Militant Islamist organizations - I'd be tempted to hide behind advocacy on behalf of religious egalitarianism and equivalency, myself.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> A handful of Muslim terrorists - TERRORISTS - conducted this act. *Frankly, I get sick and tired of people using this imagery in an attempt to stoke intolerance and justify hate- the same kind of hatred that drove those terrorists to do what they did*.  It's a slap in the face to the people who suffered and died in that event - and who included amongsyt their number Muslims.
> 
> CAIR is doing what needs to be done.  Some one needs to turn over these stones publically and expose the hate groups for what they are.
Click to expand...


Let's start with the hate group CAIR.


----------



## Coyote

Kondor3 said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> There is an actual Right Wing Playbook designed to promote anti-Islamic bigotry and intolerance through deliberate fear mongering and disinformation.  So many of the standard arguments seem to include these tactics....
> 
> 
> 
> And then there are *vast* numbers of sensible Americans who feel highly suspicious and unfriendly towards Muslims, without the slightest prompting whatsoever.
> 
> Probably has something to do with a 1300-year -long history of Muslim conquest and bloodletting and forcing other religious practitioners underground or into Dhimmitude and being the prime movers in the African Slave Trade and being collectively manifestly hostile to Christianity and Judaism and giving their practitioners permission to make war and to commit violence against others who do not believe in their version of the godhead and who grotesquely subordinate and disenfranchise women, etc. - primitives, alien to The West, members of a potentially violent religious sect which despises and seeks to overcome and transform The West.
> 
> We in The West are not fooled.
Click to expand...


Really?  And how many American Muslims are thus?

Of course you conveniently ignore the parallel blood thirstly conquest of  Christianity and it's subjegation of women.

People hate Muslims because most of the time, they've never met one and they assume everything they read in the media is all there is to the religion.



> We merely need to have the courage to stand-up to phony-baloney charges of bigotry, when the so-called 'religion' which you promote and/or protect is the worst bigotry of all.



Oh really?  So it's ok to call me names like "apologist" but not ok to call bigots bigots?  Should we not call anti-semites anti-semites?  Or racists racists?  After all - they're just standing up to phony-baloney charges right?


----------



## Coyote

Dogmaphobe said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> Islam is a religion dude.  Put down the talking points.
> _Islam -  following Islamic law, which touches on virtually every aspect of life and society, providing guidance on multifarious topics from banking and welfare, to family life and the environment.[7][8]_​
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Which any honest person realizes is POLITICAL  --  ISLAMIC LAW.
> 
> DUH!
Click to expand...


Halakha.  DUH!

It's still a religion.


----------



## ScienceRocks

So should we welcome the radicals that want to slit our throats to plan their attacks? Should we just do away with the fbi, cia and any means to stop these people.

Remember, we're at war.


----------



## Coyote

Dogmaphobe said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> Name calling?  .
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, name calling.
> 
> You call people an "Islamophobe" or a "bigot"  for resisting your totalitarian politico-religious views even though you have chosen such views of your own volition.
Click to expand...


My "totalitarian politico-religious views"?  What the heck are you talking about?

I've called no one here an Islamophobe or bigot. 

I do call those who spread hate and disinformation about a particular religious group - Islamophobes and bigots. Only you know if the shoe fits.  It's what the Pamela Gellars of the world are.  It's what the Daniel Pipes are.  It's what the Geert Wilders are. They are as bigoted as any racist or anti-semite and they should be exposed for what they are.

All religions are chosen of a person's own violation - and they are all protected under the First Amendment.


----------



## Coyote

Matthew said:


> So should we welcome the radicals that want to slit our throats to plan their attacks? Should we just do away with the fbi, cia and any means to stop these people.
> 
> Remember, we're at war.



Who called for that?


----------



## Dogmaphobe

Coyote said:


> [
> 
> All religions are chosen of a person's own violation - and they are all protected under the First Amendment.



Perhaps it is in the first amendment of the country you are from, but in this one there is absolutely nothing that says your totalitarian views cannot be assailed.

Your Muslim hysterics are all for naught, here.


----------



## Coyote

Dogmaphobe said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> [
> 
> All religions are chosen of a person's own violation - and they are all protected under the First Amendment.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Perhaps it is in the first amendment of the country you are from, but in this one there is absolutely nothing that says your totalitarian views cannot be assailed.
> 
> Your Muslim hysterics are all for naught, here.
Click to expand...


I have no idea what you are talking about or what you think my "totalitarian views are".  I'm an American.  I don't know what you are since you have not said.  If you think I have "totalitarian views" - *please feel free to link to some examples of those views.*

I believe in a democratic form of government where minorities are constitutionally protected as are our civil rights including religion, free speech, freedom of assembly, the right to bear arms, the right to not be discrimminated against for reasons of gender, race, ethnicity, religion or sexual orientation.  I believe marriage is a right that is not determined by popular opinion.  I may not like your religion, I may make fun of it but I'll fight to the death for your right to practice in my country within our system of laws.

I don't know what you believe in and I don't care.  You know nothing about me but you do make a lot of laughable assumptions you are unable to support.

We have rights in my country.  And they are protected.  You may not like that.  But that is our way of life and it is what my country was founded upon.


----------



## Kondor3

Coyote said:


> ...Really?  And how many American Muslims are thus?...


Who knows? Who cares?



> ...Of course you conveniently ignore the parallel blood thirstly conquest of  Christianity and it's subjegation of women...


Oh, I don't ignore the parallels.

Hell, I'm perfectly willing to concede that - all told - Christendom has probably killed more people than Islam has, over the centuries.

But it's also far more ancient than Islam, it experienced a number of Reformations that Islam will never experience, and then it empowered itself to place Secularism over Theocratic Dogma - reaching the common-sense conclusion that a Separation of Church and State was needed - long, long ago.

Islam, on the other hand, was intentionally constructed to lock-out changes, preventing a desperately-needed Reformation, and it continues 7th Century mindset business-as-usual; barbaric, bloodthirsty, and far more susceptible to dogmatic exploitation by any street-corner mullah looking to issue a Fatwa or declare Jihad, in keeping with the precepts laid down by its blood-soaked pedophile Founder.



> ...People hate Muslims because most of the time, they've never met one and they assume everything they read in the media is all there is to the religion...


People dislike Muslims because Muslims dislike everybody who doesn't think like them and who doesn't worship God in the same way - their sacred texts are absolutely saturated with permissions to wage war and to commit great violence upon nonbelievers, and, because it views itself as the ultimate and final Word of God, changes have been locked out, and it will never experience a profound Reformation nor find and sustain a permanent Separation of Mosque and State.



> ...We merely need to have the courage to stand-up to phony-baloney charges of bigotry, when the so-called 'religion' which you promote and/or protect is the worst bigotry of all.
> 
> 
> 
> Oh really?  So it's ok to call me names like "apologist" but not ok to call bigots bigots?  Should we not call anti-semites anti-semites?  Or racists racists?  After all - they're just standing up to phony-baloney charges right?
Click to expand...

Yes, we merely need to have the courage to stand-up to phony-baloney charges of bigotry.

Especially from a so-called 'religion' which is the most intolerant and bigoted of the lot.

Namely, Islam.

Pot, meet kettle.


----------



## Rikurzhen

Coyote said:


> I believe in a democratic form of government where minorities are constitutionally protected as are our civil rights including religion, free speech, freedom of assembly, the right to bear arms, the right to not be discrimminated against for reasons of gender, race, ethnicity, religion or sexual orientation.  I believe marriage is a right that is not determined by popular opinion.  I may not like your religion, I may make fun of it but I'll fight to the death for your right to practice in my country within our system of laws.



I see what you did there, slipping the cuckoo's egg in there:

1.) religion;

What you believe in terms of religion doesn't put any obligation unto me.

2.) free speech;

What you choose to speak or write doesn't put any obligation unto me.

3.) freedom of assembly;

Whom you choose to assemble with doesn't put any obligation unto me.

4.) the right to bear arms:

Your choice to bear arms doesn't put any obligation unto me.

5.) the right to not be discriminated against for reasons of gender, race, ethnicity, religion or sexual orientation.

For you to exercise this "right" puts obligations onto me if I wish to exercise right #3, freedom of assembly, in that now your "right" to be free of discrimination forces me to associate with you if I choose not to for reasons of sex, race, ethnicity, religion or sexual orientation.  This is not a right. Now you're in totalitarian territory.


----------



## Truthseeker420

God Bless CAIR they do good work.


----------



## Dogmaphobe

Kondor3 said:


> Islam, on the other hand, was intentionally constructed to lock-out changes, preventing a desperately-needed Reformation, and it continues 7th Century mindset business-as-usual; barbaric, bloodthirsty, and far more susceptible to dogmatic exploitation by any street-corner mullah looking to issue a Fatwa or declare Jihad, in keeping with the precepts laid down by its blood-soaked pedophile Founder.
> 
> 
> People dislike Muslims because Muslims dislike everybody who doesn't think like them and who doesn't worship God in the same way - their sacred texts are absolutely saturated with permissions to wage war and to commit great violence upon nonbelievers, and, because it views itself as the ultimate and final Word of God, changes have been locked out, and it will never experience a profound Reformation nor find and sustain a permanent Separation of Mosque and State.
> 
> .




Great post.  

 There are really only two possibilities to explain Coyote's non-stop sophistry. Either she has never read so much as a single word of the Q'ran and is defending that which she does not know out of ignorance, or she is defending her turf.  

 Anybody capable of thinking outside the box should be able to realize that a "religion" that sprung from a warlord who murdered people and engaged in campaigns to subjugate all in his path served a definite purpose. That purpose was to invest in himself a power beyond mortal and thus create a sort of social cement guaranteeing the loyalty of those who followed him.  He did a damn good job of it, too, as here we are 1400 years later and his followers are still warring on the rest of humanity. 

 I always get a kick out of the typically stupid tu Quoque arguments that Coyote and other dishonest Muslims or their apologists inevitably bring up regarding Christianity. If one were to only engage in the slightest degree of intellectual honesty and study the message of the two prophets, they would realize that when Christians transgress upon others, they do so by not following Jesus' words, and when Islamists do so, it is because they ARE following Mohammad.   Jesus said to turn the other check and said that politics was not of his world. Mohammad gave instructions to decapitate and was very much in the world of politics, setting up legal systems and forcing them on all in his bloody path.


----------



## Dogmaphobe

Coyote said:


> I have no idea what you are talking about or what you think my "totalitarian views are".  I'm an American.  I don't know what you are since you have not said.  If you think I have "totalitarian views" - *please feel free to link to some examples of those views.*
> 
> I believe in a democratic form of government where minorities are constitutionally protected as are our civil rights including religion, free speech, freedom of assembly, the right to bear arms, the right to not be discrimminated against for reasons of gender, race, ethnicity, religion or sexual orientation.  I believe marriage is a right that is not determined by popular opinion.  I may not like your religion, I may make fun of it but I'll fight to the death for your right to practice in my country within our system of laws.
> 
> I don't know what you believe in and I don't care.  You know nothing about me but you do make a lot of laughable assumptions you are unable to support.
> 
> We have rights in my country.  And they are protected.  You may not like that.  But that is our way of life and it is what my country was founded upon.




You can indulge in all the insincere self-aggrandizing posturing you want, Coyote, but the truth of the matter is that by supporting the agenda of CAIR,  you provide the proof that none of these words are true.

CAIR's  purpose is to destroy our constitution and turn America into a totalitarian Islamic state.  I realize you people try to use the very values we hold dear to try to undermine us, but there are people here who are intelligent enough to see through your game. You use free speech to try to destroy it. You exploit the constitution in order to replace it. You cry "discrimination" awaiting your opportunity to impose it. It's all one gigantic shell game.


----------



## Delta4Embassy

Don't suppose the Muslim bashers have stopped a second and considered how their bashing Islam and Muslims is eerily similar to how another government and people bashed another religion ~80 years ago?


----------



## Dogmaphobe

Delta4Embassy said:


> Don't suppose the Muslim bashers have stopped a second and considered how their bashing Islam and Muslims is eerily similar to how another government and people bashed another religion ~80 years ago?




 and here I was completely unaware that a concept like Jihad even existed in Judaism.  

My bad, I guess.


----------



## Delta4Embassy

Dogmaphobe said:


> Delta4Embassy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Don't suppose the Muslim bashers have stopped a second and considered how their bashing Islam and Muslims is eerily similar to how another government and people bashed another religion ~80 years ago?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> and here I was completely unaware that a concept like Jihad even existed in Judaism.
> 
> My bad, I guess.
Click to expand...


Right, Islam popped into existence from a vacuum. Not like it based itself on Judaism or anything. Try reading a Bible instead of just beating people over the head with it.

 598. That those engaged in warfare shall not fear their enemies nor be panic-stricken by them during battle (Deut. 3:22, 7:21, 20:3) (negative).
 599. To anoint a special kohein (to speak to the soldiers) in a war (Deut. 20:2) (affirmative). See Kohein.
 600. In a permissive war (as distinguished from obligatory ones), to observe the procedure prescribed in the Torah (Deut. 20:10) (affirmative).
 601. Not to keep alive any individual of the seven Canaanite nations (Deut. 20:16) (negative).
 602. To exterminate the seven Canaanite nations from the land of Israel (Deut. 20:17) (affirmative).
 603. Not to destroy fruit trees (wantonly or in warfare) (Deut. 20:19-20) (CCN191).
 604. To deal with a beautiful woman taken captive in war in the manner prescribed in the Torah (Deut. 21:10-14) (affirmative).
 605. Not to sell a beautiful woman, (taken captive in war) (Deut. 21:14) (negative).
 606. Not to degrade a beautiful woman (taken captive in war) to the condition of a bondwoman (Deut. 21:14) (negative).
 607. Not to offer peace to the Ammonites and the Moabites before waging war on them, as should be done to other nations (Deut. 23:7) (negative).
 608. That anyone who is unclean shall not enter the Camp of the Levites (Deut. 23:11) (according to the Talmud, in the present day this means the Temple mount) (CCN193).
 609. To have a place outside the camp for sanitary purposes (Deut. 23:13) (affirmative).
 610. To keep that place sanitary (Deut. 23:14-15) (affirmative).
 611. Always to remember what Amalek did (Deut. 25:17) (CCA76).
 612. That the evil done to us by Amalek shall not be forgotten (Deut. 25:19) (CCN194).
 613. To destroy the seed of Amalek (Deut. 25:19) (CCA77).


----------



## Uncensored2008

Coyote said:


> So exposing hate groups are scandalous?  You think David Duke and the KKK are just another pop band or something?



I sure am frightened of the KKK. I lay awake at night in fear of what they might do next.

In fact, I compiled a list of all the terrorist act by the KKK in the decade.

Here it is... Ready?


Quite the list, isn't it?

Now, shall we do a list on the terrorist act of you Muslims? 

BTW, one Dingo can defeat two coyotes, I've seen this recently.


----------



## Uncensored2008

Coyote said:


> Umh...did you READ your source?  It's not saying SPLC is a "hate group" - quite the opposite.  It's saying that this nut used their list of hate groups to find a victim.



What proof do you or the SPLC Klan have the FRC is a "hate group?"

In fact, isn't the demagoguery or the Klan meant to intimidate FRC into bowing to the pro-homosexual and pro-abortion agenda? In fact, isn't it purely the political opposition to these cultural questions that the SPLC Klan bases their absurd slander and libel on?

Oh and Coyote, what does your Imam have to say on the subjects of homosexuality and abortion? Isn't it true that the Klan holds a far different standard for Muslims than they do Christians?  Isn't it true that the SPLC Klan is nothing more than a political terrorist group?

So the Klan prompted a follower to pick of a gun and start shooting? Is the SPLC evolving from political terrorism to physical terrorism?


----------



## Unkotare

Uncensored2008 said:


> Now, shall we do a list on the terrorist act of you Muslims? ..




I do not recall Coyote declaring himself a Muslim, or a terrorist. Where did you get that?


----------



## Uncensored2008

Unkotare said:


> I do not recall Coyote declaring himself a Muslim, or a terrorist. Where did you get that?



There are motives to all things. No one spends the time and effort to defend Islam the way Coyote does without a motive.

What is that motive? Occam's Razor.

I believe Coyote is a "she," not a "he," but could be wrong.


----------



## Unkotare

Uncensored2008 said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> I do not recall Coyote declaring himself a Muslim, or a terrorist. Where did you get that?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There are motives to all things. No one spends the time and effort to defend Islam the way Coyote does without a motive.
> 
> What is that motive? Occam's Razor.
> 
> I believe Coyote is a "she," not a "he," but could be wrong.
Click to expand...



Wouldn't it be easier to just ask him (or her if that is the case) than to jump at illogical conclusions like this?


----------



## Uncensored2008

Unkotare said:


> Wouldn't it be easier to just ask him (or her if that is the case) than to jump at illogical conclusions like this?



On gender? I believe I have - which is the basis of my statement.

On Islam? It is of no use - the first rule of an internet Jihad is to lie about your motive.


----------



## Unkotare

Uncensored2008 said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> Wouldn't it be easier to just ask him (or her if that is the case) than to jump at illogical conclusions like this?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On gender? I believe I have - which is the basis of my statement.
> 
> On Islam? It is of no use - the first rule of an internet Jihad is to lie about your motive.
Click to expand...



That is paranoid, irrational, and illogical. Why not go ahead and give asking a shot? As it is, you are starting to sound like the brain dead idiots who insist "you must be one-a them neeeegras!" of anyone who takes issue with racist nonsense. You see the same stupidity from the anti-Semites, anti-Christian bigots like Batshit Boy, and the rest of the bottom of the barrel here. You don't have to lower yourself to that level. Go ahead and ask.


----------



## Dogmaphobe

Unkotare said:


> Wouldn't it be easier to just ask him (or her if that is the case) than to jump at illogical conclusions like this?




Coyote has been asked several times, and dodges the question with extreme militancy.


....which makes such a conclusion far more logical than it does illogical. The singleness of purpose that has led this poster to commit literally thousands of postings across different boards to furthering this one specific agenda certainly makes it more likely that agenda being pushed with such zealousness is the one in with the poster believes rather than one in which he or she doesn't. .


----------



## Mojo2

Coyote said:


> Mojo2 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> The SPLC's methods are virtually identical to the KKK?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> They are scandalous.
> 
> Why are you guys always the last to know the shit everyone else has known _forever_?
> 
> Maybe you are also behind the curve when it comes to recognizing the threat of Islam to America.
> 
> The Snake.
> 
> 
> If you loved America you would be more discerning about what you will allow to take place inside of her.
> 
> Do you WANT America to be conquered by the soldiers of Allah?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> So exposing hate groups are scandalous?  You think David Duke and the KKK are just another pop band or something?
Click to expand...


They are scandalous in their excesses.


----------



## Coyote

Kondor3 said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...Really?  And how many American Muslims are thus?...
> 
> 
> 
> Who knows? Who cares?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...Of course you conveniently ignore the parallel blood thirstly conquest of  Christianity and it's subjegation of women...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Oh, I don't ignore the parallels.
> 
> Hell, I'm perfectly willing to concede that - all told - Christendom has probably killed more people than Islam has, over the centuries.
> 
> But it's also far more ancient than Islam, it experienced a number of Reformations* that Islam will never experience*, and then it empowered itself to place Secularism over Theocratic Dogma - reaching the common-sense conclusion that a Separation of Church and State was needed - long, long ago.
> 
> Islam, on the other hand, was intentionally constructed to lock-out changes, preventing a desperately-needed Reformation, and it continues 7th Century mindset business-as-usual; barbaric, bloodthirsty, and far more susceptible to dogmatic exploitation by any street-corner mullah looking to issue a Fatwa or declare Jihad, in keeping with the precepts laid down by its blood-soaked pedophile Founder.
Click to expand...


I disagree.  Islam DID experience a "reformation", it just chose the wrong direction when it chose Salifism over a more liber. What you are claiming is that not only is Islam evil, *it can never change*.  That's not shown to be true historically or in the variations *in the ways it is practiced around the world*.




> Oh really?  So it's ok to call me names like "apologist" but not ok to call bigots bigots?  Should we not call anti-semites anti-semites?  Or racists racists?  After all - they're just standing up to phony-baloney charges right?



Yes, we merely need to have the courage to stand-up to phony-baloney charges of bigotry.

Especially from a so-called 'religion' which is the most intolerant and bigoted of the lot.

Namely, Islam.

Pot, meet kettle.[/QUOTE]

So you are effectively claiming that the KKK is not racist, it just needs to stand up to the "phoney-baloney" charges of bigotry


----------



## Coyote

Dogmaphobe said:


> Kondor3 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Islam, on the other hand, was intentionally constructed to lock-out changes, preventing a desperately-needed Reformation, and it continues 7th Century mindset business-as-usual; barbaric, bloodthirsty, and far more susceptible to dogmatic exploitation by any street-corner mullah looking to issue a Fatwa or declare Jihad, in keeping with the precepts laid down by its blood-soaked pedophile Founder.
> 
> 
> People dislike Muslims because Muslims dislike everybody who doesn't think like them and who doesn't worship God in the same way - their sacred texts are absolutely saturated with permissions to wage war and to commit great violence upon nonbelievers, and, because it views itself as the ultimate and final Word of God, changes have been locked out, and it will never experience a profound Reformation nor find and sustain a permanent Separation of Mosque and State.
> 
> .
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Great post.
> 
> There are really only two possibilities to explain Coyote's non-stop sophistry. Either she has never read so much as a single word of the Q'ran and is defending that which she does not know out of ignorance, or she is defending her turf.
Click to expand...


Those are the only two things you can think of?

Maybe I have read the Quran in entirety - not cherry picked and out of context.

That's a third option.



> Anybody capable of thinking outside the box should be able to realize that a "religion" that sprung from a warlord who murdered people and engaged in campaigns to subjugate all in his path served a definite purpose. That purpose was to invest in himself a power beyond mortal and thus create a sort of social cement guaranteeing the loyalty of those who followed him.  He did a damn good job of it, too, as here we are 1400 years later and his followers are still warring on the rest of humanity.



Perhaps you should read a biography of Mohammed and the history of that era.  It would fill in much needed gaps in your knowledge.  As to investing himself in a power beyond mortal...well...isn't that always the case with prophets?



> I always get a kick out of the typically stupid tu Quoque arguments that Coyote and other dishonest Muslims or their apologists inevitably bring up regarding Christianity. If one were to only engage in the slightest degree of intellectual honesty and study the message of the two prophets, *they would realize that when Christians transgress upon others, they do so by not following Jesus' words, and when Islamists do so, it is because they ARE following Mohammad*.   Jesus said to turn the other check and said that politics was not of his world. Mohammad gave instructions to decapitate and was very much in the world of politics, setting up legal systems and forcing them on all in his bloody path.



And there you go.  The typical apologist's excuse.  In other words - violent Christians aren't following their true religion but violent Muslims are.  Well, they are, I suppose - if you don't know much about the religion itself.


----------



## Dogmaphobe

Coyote said:


> .  As to investing himself in a power beyond mortal...well...isn't that always the case with prophets?



That is as close as you have come to being honest about your beliefs. 

 Do you consider this warlord as having powers beyond mortal?


----------



## Coyote

Dogmaphobe said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> I have no idea what you are talking about or what you think my "totalitarian views are".  I'm an American.  I don't know what you are since you have not said.  If you think I have "totalitarian views" - *please feel free to link to some examples of those views.*
> 
> I believe in a democratic form of government where minorities are constitutionally protected as are our civil rights including religion, free speech, freedom of assembly, the right to bear arms, the right to not be discrimminated against for reasons of gender, race, ethnicity, religion or sexual orientation.  I believe marriage is a right that is not determined by popular opinion.  I may not like your religion, I may make fun of it but I'll fight to the death for your right to practice in my country within our system of laws.
> 
> I don't know what you believe in and I don't care.  You know nothing about me but you do make a lot of laughable assumptions you are unable to support.
> 
> We have rights in my country.  And they are protected.  You may not like that.  But that is our way of life and it is what my country was founded upon.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You can indulge in all the insincere self-aggrandizing posturing you want, Coyote, but the truth of the matter is that by supporting the agenda of CAIR,  you provide the proof that none of these words are true.
> 
> CAIR's  purpose is to destroy our constitution and turn America into a totalitarian Islamic state.  I realize you people try to use the very values we hold dear to try to undermine us, but there are people here who are intelligent enough to see through your game. You use free speech to try to destroy it. You exploit the constitution in order to replace it. You cry "discrimination" awaiting your opportunity to impose it. It's all one gigantic shell game.
Click to expand...


Again - who are "you people"?

Please find me a reputable source that indicates this is CAIR's purpose.  

I am still waiting for some sort of link to what you claim are my "totalitarian views".

You make a lot of claims about me rather than discussing the topic - which is not me I might add.  Yet you never seem to support them other than by providing yet more conjecture about me, my supposed views, my religious views and my totalitarian desires.


----------



## Unkotare

Dogmaphobe said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> Wouldn't it be easier to just ask him (or her if that is the case) than to jump at illogical conclusions like this?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote has been asked several times, and dodges the question with extreme militancy.
> 
> 
> ....which makes such a conclusion far more logical than it does illogical. .. .
Click to expand...



No, it does not. Ask directly, without accusation or insinuation.


----------



## Coyote

Dogmaphobe said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> .  As to investing himself in a power beyond mortal...well...isn't that always the case with prophets?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That is as close as you have come to being honest about your beliefs.
> 
> Do you consider this warlord as having powers beyond mortal?
Click to expand...


I am always honest about my religious beliefs.  I just don't provide them on demand to someone who's primary purpose is malignant. My religion or views have  no bearing on the topic.

I consider NO so-called prophets to have powers beyond the mortal.  I think they were great men of their time, did great things but were mortal - whether we called them Moses, Appolonius, Jesus or Mohammed.


----------



## Dogmaphobe

Coyote said:


> Again - who are "you people"?
> 
> .




CAIR's mission is to establish a jackbooted Islamist Caliphate here in the United States.  You are their biggest cheerleader here, therefore "you people"  would indicate you, CAIR and all who share this same nasty agenda.


----------



## Mojo2

Coyote said:


> Rikurzhen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> Prove it's a hate group.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Virginia man who pleaded guilty to an act of armed terrorism and assault with intent to kill in last year's shooting attack at the conservative Family Research Council said he got the idea from the liberal-leaning Southern Poverty Law Center's "hate map."​
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Umh...did you READ your source?  It's not saying SPLC is a "hate group" - quite the opposite.  It's saying that this nut used their list of hate groups to find a victim.
Click to expand...



_SPLC has come under severe criticism from the left and the right in recent years.

Writing in the left-wing website Counterpunch, Alexander Coburn called SPLC founder Morris Dees "king of the hate business." Coburn wrote, "Ever since 1971, U.S. Postal Service mailbags have bulged with Dees' fundraising letters, scaring dollars out of the pockets of trembling liberals aghast at his lurid depictions of hate-sodden America, in dire need of legal confrontation by the SPLC." In fact, so prolific is Dees at direct mail that he is in the Direct Marketing Association Hall of Fame.

Writing at the Harper's Magazine blog in 2007, Ken Silverstein said, "What [the SPLC] does best... is to raise obscene amounts of money by hyping fears about the power of [right-wing fringe] groups; hence the SPLC has become the nation's richest 'civil rights' organization."
A critical analysis published recently by Professor George Yancey of North Texas University concluded that SPLC targets only those groups its leaders disagree with politically while leaving liberal groups who use extreme language alone.

A 2013 article in Foreign Policy concluded that SPLC exaggerates the hate crimes threat, saying SPLC is not an "objective purveyor of data," instead calling them "anti-hate activists" and suggesting that their reports need to be "weighed more carefully by news outlets that cover their pronouncements."

Though SPLC sits on a bank account of $250 million and raises some $40 million a year in direct mail, some have suggested that the decline of racist groups and therefore the need to tap new sources of funds might have led Dees and his colleagues to target Christian groups as new sources of revenue. Weekly Standard writer Charlotte Hays says, "...several critics with whom I spoke speculated that the last might represent another of Dees's efforts to tap via mailing lists into a well-off and easily frightened donor base: gays."

What has concerned Christian groups in recent years is that their inclusion on the hate list and the use of the hate list by the FBI is unfair and even dangerous to their civil liberties. After all, holding the view that gayness is not inborn and opposing same-sex marriage are hardly against the law.

FRC president Tony Perkins said, "We commend the FBI for removing website links to the Southern Poverty Law Center, an organization that not only dispenses erroneous data but has been linked to domestic terrorism in federal court. We hope this means the FBI leadership will avoid any kind of partnership with the SPLC."

Read Boykin's letter to the FBI below:

FBI Dumps Southern Poverty Law Center as Hate Crimes Resource_


----------



## Coyote

Delta4Embassy said:


> Don't suppose the Muslim bashers have stopped a second and considered how their bashing Islam and Muslims is eerily similar to how another government and people bashed another religion ~80 years ago?



That is what is so frightening about the level of hate and the complete rationalization of it. Once you start scapegoating minorities, what is the next step?  What can you justify?


----------



## Mojo2

Dogmaphobe said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> Again - who are "you people"?
> 
> .
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CAIR's mission is to establish a jackbooted Islamist Caliphate here in the United States.  You are their biggest cheerleader here, therefore "you people"  would indicate you, CAIR and all who share this same nasty agenda.
Click to expand...


*"CAIR's mission is to establish a jackbooted Islamist Caliphate here in the United States. You are their biggest cheerleader here, therefore "you people" would indicate you, CAIR and all who share this same nasty agenda."*


*AMEN!!!*


----------



## Mojo2

Coyote said:


> Delta4Embassy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Don't suppose the Muslim bashers have stopped a second and considered how their bashing Islam and Muslims is eerily similar to how another government and people bashed another religion ~80 years ago?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That is what is so frightening about the level of hate and the complete rationalization of it. Once you start scapegoating minorities, what is the next step?  What can you justify?
Click to expand...


We can prevent the scapegoating of Muslims by keeping their numbers in America as small as possible and not enacting special laws just for them.


----------



## Coyote

Uncensored2008 said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> So exposing hate groups are scandalous?  You think David Duke and the KKK are just another pop band or something?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I sure am frightened of the KKK. I lay awake at night in fear of what they might do next.
> 
> In fact, I compiled a list of all the terrorist act by the KKK in the decade.
> 
> Here it is... Ready?
> 
> 
> Quite the list, isn't it?
> 
> Now, shall we do a list on the terrorist act of you Muslims?
> 
> BTW, one Dingo can defeat two coyotes, I've seen this recently.
Click to expand...


"You Muslims"?  By the way, do you realize most of "you Muslims" don't engage in terrorist attacks?

KKK is more of an archetype I used as an example.  Look up hate crimes.  Also, the majority of terrorist attacks in the US are not conducted by Muslims, though that is a distraction.

Dingos are tough.  So are 'yotes.  I respect them both


----------



## Coyote

Uncensored2008 said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> Umh...did you READ your source?  It's not saying SPLC is a "hate group" - quite the opposite.  It's saying that this nut used their list of hate groups to find a victim.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What proof do you or the SPLC Klan have the FRC is a "hate group?"
> 
> In fact, isn't the demagoguery or the Klan meant to intimidate FRC into bowing to the pro-homosexual and pro-abortion agenda? In fact, isn't it purely the political opposition to these cultural questions that the SPLC Klan bases their absurd slander and libel on?
> 
> Oh and Coyote, what does your Imam have to say on the subjects of homosexuality and abortion? Isn't it true that the Klan holds a far different standard for Muslims than they do Christians?  Isn't it true that the SPLC Klan is nothing more than a political terrorist group?
> 
> So the Klan prompted a follower to pick of a gun and start shooting? Is the SPLC evolving from political terrorism to physical terrorism?
Click to expand...


I don't have an Imam.  I already mentioned that Islam is behind the curve in regards to homosexuals and their rights.

Who did the SPLC "prompt" to pick up a gun and start shooting?  Isn't that a bit the same as the sillyness that was going on about Palin and her "targets"?  So is Palin a "political terrorist" then?

No, you may disagree with the SPLC's definition of "hate groups" but you're stretching the definition of "terrorist" to the point of ridiculous.


----------



## Coyote

Uncensored2008 said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> I do not recall Coyote declaring himself a Muslim, or a terrorist. Where did you get that?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There are motives to all things. No one spends the time and effort to defend Islam the way Coyote does without a motive.
> 
> What is that motive? Occam's Razor.
> 
> I believe Coyote is a "she," not a "he," but could be wrong.
Click to expand...


Motive?

How about simply doing what is just right and fair to a group that is under such attack as a group through a well orchestrated campaign of hate, disinformation and even conspirace-theory style logic in an effort to demonize - not terrorists, not extremists - but an entire religion worldwide - even to the point of trying to remove constitutional protections in my country.  I don't care what religion it is - the tactic is contemptable and the results are often tragic.


----------



## Dogmaphobe

Coyote said:


> That is what is so frightening about the level of hate and the complete rationalization of it. Once you start scapegoating minorities, what is the next step?  What can you justify?




Or you could display even the tiniest degree of intellectual honesty, instead .  It's your choice.

By your definition the kkk and neo nazis would be minorities since we are talking ideology here. Your following Islam is a choice, just as it would be a choice to be a member of the KKK or a white supremacist.

This has been pointed out to you several times, but you are here to pursue an agenda that does not include honesty.


----------



## Mojo2

Coyote said:


> Dogmaphobe said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> I have no idea what you are talking about or what you think my "totalitarian views are".  I'm an American.  I don't know what you are since you have not said.  If you think I have "totalitarian views" - *please feel free to link to some examples of those views.*
> 
> I believe in a democratic form of government where minorities are constitutionally protected as are our civil rights including religion, free speech, freedom of assembly, the right to bear arms, the right to not be discrimminated against for reasons of gender, race, ethnicity, religion or sexual orientation.  I believe marriage is a right that is not determined by popular opinion.  I may not like your religion, I may make fun of it but I'll fight to the death for your right to practice in my country within our system of laws.
> 
> I don't know what you believe in and I don't care.  You know nothing about me but you do make a lot of laughable assumptions you are unable to support.
> 
> We have rights in my country.  And they are protected.  You may not like that.  But that is our way of life and it is what my country was founded upon.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You can indulge in all the insincere self-aggrandizing posturing you want, Coyote, but the truth of the matter is that by supporting the agenda of CAIR,  you provide the proof that none of these words are true.
> 
> CAIR's  purpose is to destroy our constitution and turn America into a totalitarian Islamic state.  I realize you people try to use the very values we hold dear to try to undermine us, but there are people here who are intelligent enough to see through your game. You use free speech to try to destroy it. You exploit the constitution in order to replace it. You cry "discrimination" awaiting your opportunity to impose it. It's all one gigantic shell game.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Again - who are "you people"?
> 
> Please find me a reputable source that indicates this is CAIR's purpose.
> 
> I am still waiting for some sort of link to what you claim are my "totalitarian views".
> 
> You make a lot of claims about me rather than discussing the topic - which is not me I might add.  Yet you never seem to support them other than by providing yet more conjecture about me, my supposed views, my religious views and my totalitarian desires.
Click to expand...


*CAIR's purpose is to destroy our constitution and turn America into a totalitarian Islamic state. I realize you people try to use the very values we hold dear to try to undermine us, but there are people here who are intelligent enough to see through your game. You use free speech to try to destroy it. You exploit the constitution in order to replace it. You cry "discrimination" awaiting your opportunity to impose it. It's all one gigantic shell game.*

*Please find me a reputable source that indicates this is CAIR's purpose.  *

*Is there a government cover-up at play?

A 2001 raid in Switzerland unearthed a chilling manifesto now dubbed “The Project,” a detailed Islamic blueprint for infiltrating, subverting and ultimately defeating the U.S. and the West. Today, 80 file boxes worth of evidence submitted during the 2008 Holy Land Foundation trial — the largest terror financing trial in U.S. history to date — including “The Project” documents, are being withheld from the American public by the Department of Justice.

On Wednesday, September 26, TheBlaze documentary unit released the first installment of this chilling two-part series outlining how the current administration has stonewalled repeated requests by Congress to release the disturbing documents and for allowing the Muslim Brotherhood greater entree into American government. Further, the documentary reveals just how close American-Islamic operatives from groups such as the Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR) and the Islamic Society of North America (ISNA) have been to subverting the U.S. and Israel.


 8216 The Project 8217 Part I 8212 All Totalitarian Ideologies Are Threat to U.S. Video TheBlaze.com*​


----------



## Coyote

Dogmaphobe said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> Again - who are "you people"?
> 
> .
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *CAIR's mission is to establish a jackbooted Islamist Caliphate here in the United States*.  You are their biggest cheerleader here, therefore "you people"  would indicate you, CAIR and all who share this same nasty agenda.
Click to expand...



Again, you are making a claim that you have yet to support and trying to make this about me.  Please - some link or some reputable source showing that this is indeed CAIR's mission.


----------



## Coyote

Mojo2 said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Delta4Embassy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Don't suppose the Muslim bashers have stopped a second and considered how their bashing Islam and Muslims is eerily similar to how another government and people bashed another religion ~80 years ago?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That is what is so frightening about the level of hate and the complete rationalization of it. Once you start scapegoating minorities, what is the next step?  What can you justify?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> We can prevent the scapegoating of Muslims by keeping their numbers in America as small as possible and not enacting special laws just for them.
Click to expand...


What special laws are inacted "just for them"?


----------



## Coyote

Mojo2 said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dogmaphobe said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> I have no idea what you are talking about or what you think my "totalitarian views are".  I'm an American.  I don't know what you are since you have not said.  If you think I have "totalitarian views" - *please feel free to link to some examples of those views.*
> 
> I believe in a democratic form of government where minorities are constitutionally protected as are our civil rights including religion, free speech, freedom of assembly, the right to bear arms, the right to not be discrimminated against for reasons of gender, race, ethnicity, religion or sexual orientation.  I believe marriage is a right that is not determined by popular opinion.  I may not like your religion, I may make fun of it but I'll fight to the death for your right to practice in my country within our system of laws.
> 
> I don't know what you believe in and I don't care.  You know nothing about me but you do make a lot of laughable assumptions you are unable to support.
> 
> We have rights in my country.  And they are protected.  You may not like that.  But that is our way of life and it is what my country was founded upon.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You can indulge in all the insincere self-aggrandizing posturing you want, Coyote, but the truth of the matter is that by supporting the agenda of CAIR,  you provide the proof that none of these words are true.
> 
> CAIR's  purpose is to destroy our constitution and turn America into a totalitarian Islamic state.  I realize you people try to use the very values we hold dear to try to undermine us, but there are people here who are intelligent enough to see through your game. You use free speech to try to destroy it. You exploit the constitution in order to replace it. You cry "discrimination" awaiting your opportunity to impose it. It's all one gigantic shell game.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Again - who are "you people"?
> 
> Please find me a reputable source that indicates this is CAIR's purpose.
> 
> I am still waiting for some sort of link to what you claim are my "totalitarian views".
> 
> You make a lot of claims about me rather than discussing the topic - which is not me I might add.  Yet you never seem to support them other than by providing yet more conjecture about me, my supposed views, my religious views and my totalitarian desires.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> *CAIR's purpose is to destroy our constitution and turn America into a totalitarian Islamic state. I realize you people try to use the very values we hold dear to try to undermine us, but there are people here who are intelligent enough to see through your game. You use free speech to try to destroy it. You exploit the constitution in order to replace it. You cry "discrimination" awaiting your opportunity to impose it. It's all one gigantic shell game.*
> 
> *Please find me a reputable source that indicates this is CAIR's purpose.  *
> 
> *Is there a government cover-up at play?
> 
> A 2001 raid in Switzerland unearthed a chilling manifesto now dubbed “The Project,” a detailed Islamic blueprint for infiltrating, subverting and ultimately defeating the U.S. and the West. Today, 80 file boxes worth of evidence submitted during the 2008 Holy Land Foundation trial — the largest terror financing trial in U.S. history to date — including “The Project” documents, are being withheld from the American public by the Department of Justice.
> 
> On Wednesday, September 26, TheBlaze documentary unit released the first installment of this chilling two-part series outlining how the current administration has stonewalled repeated requests by Congress to release the disturbing documents and for allowing the Muslim Brotherhood greater entree into American government. Further, the documentary reveals just how close American-Islamic operatives from groups such as the Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR) and the Islamic Society of North America (ISNA) have been to subverting the U.S. and Israel.
> 
> 
> 8216 The Project 8217 Part I 8212 All Totalitarian Ideologies Are Threat to U.S. Video TheBlaze.com*​
Click to expand...


Glenn Beck? How about a reputable source - not Conspiracy Theory?  I can't find any sort of independent confirmation of this from a reputable source.


----------



## Rikurzhen

Delta4Embassy said:


> Don't suppose the Muslim bashers have stopped a second and considered how their bashing Islam and Muslims is eerily similar to how another government and people bashed another religion ~80 years ago?



Do you suppose that liberals stop and think about how their calls for higher taxes on the rich is eerily similar to the class warfare slaughter committed by communists who also wanted a society of equal classes?


----------



## Coyote

Rikurzhen said:


> Delta4Embassy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Don't suppose the Muslim bashers have stopped a second and considered how their bashing Islam and Muslims is eerily similar to how another government and people bashed another religion ~80 years ago?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Do you suppose that liberals stop and think about how their calls for higher taxes on the rich is eerily similar to the class warfare slaughter committed by communists who also wanted a society of equal classes?
Click to expand...


Hyperbole much?


----------



## Rikurzhen

Coyote said:


> Rikurzhen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Delta4Embassy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Don't suppose the Muslim bashers have stopped a second and considered how their bashing Islam and Muslims is eerily similar to how another government and people bashed another religion ~80 years ago?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Do you suppose that liberals stop and think about how their calls for higher taxes on the rich is eerily similar to the class warfare slaughter committed by communists who also wanted a society of equal classes?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Hyperbole much?
Click to expand...


Fight fire with fire. Every time "race" or religion enters the discussion we see critics claiming that we're one short step away from concentration camps, ovens and genocide, so turnabout is fair play. Communists far outdid Nazis in terms of butchering their enemies, the kulaks, so any call for progressive taxation is similarly a call for gulags and the Holodomor and Killing Fields.


----------



## Dogmaphobe

CAIR Islamists Fooling the Establishment Middle East Quarterly


Just in case anybody wants to know the nature of what Coyote is promoting so fiercely.





CAIR Islamists Fooling the Establishment Middle East Quarterly


----------



## Uncensored2008

Coyote said:


> "You Muslims"?  By the way, do you realize most of "you Muslims" don't engage in terrorist attacks?



For your fabricated bogyman of the KKK, what percent of even the pre-1968 Klan, back when they actually existed, engaged in terrorist acts? IF only 5% were directly involved, does that make the Klan good people?

Because this is essentially what you demand for Islam, that since most Muslims stand with silent approval, that somehow this means the atrocities by Islam are somehow excused.

Less than 1% of Nazi party members were involved in the "Final Solution" according to Shirer - yet rational people don't use this to declare Nazis the "fascism of peace."

This sort of idiotic chicanery is reserved for Islam.



> KKK is more of an archetype I used as an example.  Look up hate crimes.  Also, the majority of terrorist attacks in the US are not conducted by Muslims, though that is a distraction.



The KKK is a bigoted attempt to smear conservatives with the crimes perpetrated by terrorist wing of the democratic party,

The KKK ended in 1968 when they lost the sponsorship of the democratic party. Morons in robes stomping around after that are just petty criminals with no political power.



> Dingos are tough.  So are 'yotes.  I respect them both



I can't keep her in a fence. Like a Coyote, she has a hinged back hip and can leap about 8 feet in the air. She was out last Thursday (trashday) about 4 AM and two coyotes were knocking over trash cans.They tried to flank her, but she would just jump over them as they closed in. I don't think she even bit them. just body slammed them and tackled them. They ran off pretty quick.


----------



## Delta4Embassy

Rikurzhen said:


> Delta4Embassy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Don't suppose the Muslim bashers have stopped a second and considered how their bashing Islam and Muslims is eerily similar to how another government and people bashed another religion ~80 years ago?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Do you suppose that liberals stop and think about how their calls for higher taxes on the rich is eerily similar to the class warfare slaughter committed by communists who also wanted a society of equal classes?
Click to expand...


Class warfare is synonymous with Nazis and the Holocaust? Huh. For the record which I'm also on, I'm for a flat 15% tax.


----------



## Coyote

Uncensored2008 said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> "You Muslims"?  By the way, do you realize most of "you Muslims" don't engage in terrorist attacks?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> For your fabricated bogyman of the KKK, what percent of even the pre-1968 Klan, back when they actually existed, engaged in terrorist acts? IF only 5% were directly involved, does that make the Klan good people?
> 
> Because this is essentially what you demand for Islam, that since most Muslims stand with silent approval, that somehow this means the atrocities by Islam are somehow excused.
> 
> Less than 1% of Nazi party members were involved in the "Final Solution" according to Shirer - yet rational people don't use this to declare Nazis the "fascism of peace."
> 
> This sort of idiotic chicanery is reserved for Islam.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> KKK is more of an archetype I used as an example.  Look up hate crimes.  Also, the majority of terrorist attacks in the US are not conducted by Muslims, though that is a distraction.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The KKK is a bigoted attempt to smear conservatives with the crimes perpetrated by terrorist wing of the democratic party,
> 
> The KKK ended in 1968 when they lost the sponsorship of the democratic party. Morons in robes stomping around after that are just petty criminals with no political power.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dingos are tough.  So are 'yotes.  I respect them both
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I can't keep her in a fence. Like a Coyote, she has a hinged back hip and can leap about 8 feet in the air. She was out last Thursday (trashday) about 4 AM and two coyotes were knocking over trash cans.They tried to flank her, but she would just jump over them as they closed in. I don't think she even bit them. just body slammed them and tackled them. They ran off pretty quick.
Click to expand...


Admittedly this is off topic - but damn, that's my kinda dog


----------



## Coyote

Dogmaphobe said:


> CAIR Islamists Fooling the Establishment Middle East Quarterly
> 
> 
> Just in case anybody wants to know the nature of what Coyote is promoting so fiercely.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CAIR Islamists Fooling the Establishment Middle East Quarterly



I could be wrong about CAIR, but I'm not wrong about the hate mongering that CAIR is exposing or that someone needs to counter the rhetoric of people like Pamela Gellar and Daniel Pipes.  If not CAIR - then someone.

I do question your source though - which makes me take what it claims with a grain of salt.  I suspect there is some truth mixed with partial truths and guilt by association: Middle East Forum - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia
The *Middle East Forum* (MEF) is a American conservative[1] think tank founded in 1990 by Daniel Pipes, who serves as its president.[2] MEF became an independent non-profit organization in 1994. It publishes a journal, the _Middle East Quarterly_.


----------



## Uncensored2008

Coyote said:


> Admittedly this is off topic - but damn, that's my kinda dog



She's my pride and joy!


----------



## Dogmaphobe

Coyote said:


> I do question your source though -.




It was only annotated with 140 references for accuracy. 

Did you need 150?


----------



## Rikurzhen

Coyote said:


> Dogmaphobe said:
> 
> 
> 
> CAIR Islamists Fooling the Establishment Middle East Quarterly
> 
> 
> Just in case anybody wants to know the nature of what Coyote is promoting so fiercely.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CAIR Islamists Fooling the Establishment Middle East Quarterly
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I could be wrong about CAIR, but I'm not wrong about the hate mongering that CAIR is exposing or that someone needs to counter the rhetoric of people like Pamela Gellar and Daniel Pipes.  If not CAIR - then someone.
Click to expand...


Truth telling is not hate. Some ideologies are just nasty at the core and when they seek protection under the label of religion that shouldn't exempt them from being exposed and judged.


----------



## Mojo2

Coyote said:


> Delta4Embassy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Don't suppose the Muslim bashers have stopped a second and considered how their bashing Islam and Muslims is eerily similar to how another government and people bashed another religion ~80 years ago?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That is what is so frightening about the level of hate and the complete rationalization of it. Once you start scapegoating minorities, what is the next step?  What can you justify?
Click to expand...


Please explain to me why loyal Americans or those who are legally residing in the USA should welcome a competing political system to flourish which, without a doubt, result in chaos and types of race riots across this land.

The ONLY, ONLY, ONLY people who support bringing more of a cancerous regime/religion into this country are those who are of that political system/religion or religion/way of life.

And the other groups are those who haven't thought it through, those who haven't been able to imagine more than the immediate drama.

They can't resist it!

By adopting the cause of Muslims and Muslim rights in America these folks are inviting into their hearts and hearths a snake that will eventually bite us.

Look at Europe.

That will happen here.

If we allow it.

And Coyote, if you really love America why would you intentionally want to introduce more seeds which will grow to become a challenge to our society?

Why?

I think the reason why is because you are being a faithful Jihadi. All Muslims are commanded to perform Jihad to help the cause of Islam, which ultimately means conquering America.

The plans to accomplish this have been discovered and it is not a question. It is a fact and everyone needs to know that as nice as you are, you are one seed that must not be allowed to hide the truth about Islam.

They say Islam is a religion of peace?

Well, it is ONLY true in the sense that when their goal of global conquest is accomplished, and all the world is under Allah's laws rather than man's laws, there will finally be peace.

Brutal religious oppression where killing Gays is expected and stoning adulterers. And honor killings. And female mutilation. And the repression of Women.

And that's just a thumbnail.

Yeah, please explain to me why we should welcome a malignant, unstoppable cancer into our society?

Even just a little bit of cancer is still cancer and can kill the host eventually.

So why do surgeons try to get every cancerous cell out of the body at the site of the surgery?

Because even a little bit can grow. And spread.

We have a reason to be antagonistic toward Muslims.

Tell me why we shouldn't do what we can to legally and non-violently resist this cancer?


----------



## Mojo2

Coyote said:


> Mojo2 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Delta4Embassy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Don't suppose the Muslim bashers have stopped a second and considered how their bashing Islam and Muslims is eerily similar to how another government and people bashed another religion ~80 years ago?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That is what is so frightening about the level of hate and the complete rationalization of it. Once you start scapegoating minorities, what is the next step?  What can you justify?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> We can prevent the scapegoating of Muslims by keeping their numbers in America as small as possible and not enacting special laws just for them.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> What special laws are inacted "just for them"?
Click to expand...


*What special laws are inacted "just for them"?*

*Jihad Watch's Spencer: US Muslims Seek, Get Special Status*
Thursday, 04 Sep 2014 04:36 PM

By Sean Piccoli

Muslims in the United States who want to impose Islamic law on non-Muslims have succeeded in getting the federal government to back their demands for special rights and accomodations not available to people of other faiths, Jihad Watch director Robert Spencer told *Newsmax TV *on Thursday.

But saying so gets any critic of attempts to establish Muslim exceptionalism labeled a hater, bigot or racist, Spencer told "MidPoint" host Ed Berliner.

*Story continues below video.

*
Jihad Watch s Spencer US Muslims Seek Get Special Status


----------



## Mojo2

Coyote said:


> Mojo2 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dogmaphobe said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> I have no idea what you are talking about or what you think my "totalitarian views are".  I'm an American.  I don't know what you are since you have not said.  If you think I have "totalitarian views" - *please feel free to link to some examples of those views.*
> 
> I believe in a democratic form of government where minorities are constitutionally protected as are our civil rights including religion, free speech, freedom of assembly, the right to bear arms, the right to not be discrimminated against for reasons of gender, race, ethnicity, religion or sexual orientation.  I believe marriage is a right that is not determined by popular opinion.  I may not like your religion, I may make fun of it but I'll fight to the death for your right to practice in my country within our system of laws.
> 
> I don't know what you believe in and I don't care.  You know nothing about me but you do make a lot of laughable assumptions you are unable to support.
> 
> We have rights in my country.  And they are protected.  You may not like that.  But that is our way of life and it is what my country was founded upon.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You can indulge in all the insincere self-aggrandizing posturing you want, Coyote, but the truth of the matter is that by supporting the agenda of CAIR,  you provide the proof that none of these words are true.
> 
> CAIR's  purpose is to destroy our constitution and turn America into a totalitarian Islamic state.  I realize you people try to use the very values we hold dear to try to undermine us, but there are people here who are intelligent enough to see through your game. You use free speech to try to destroy it. You exploit the constitution in order to replace it. You cry "discrimination" awaiting your opportunity to impose it. It's all one gigantic shell game.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Again - who are "you people"?
> 
> Please find me a reputable source that indicates this is CAIR's purpose.
> 
> I am still waiting for some sort of link to what you claim are my "totalitarian views".
> 
> You make a lot of claims about me rather than discussing the topic - which is not me I might add.  Yet you never seem to support them other than by providing yet more conjecture about me, my supposed views, my religious views and my totalitarian desires.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> *CAIR's purpose is to destroy our constitution and turn America into a totalitarian Islamic state. I realize you people try to use the very values we hold dear to try to undermine us, but there are people here who are intelligent enough to see through your game. You use free speech to try to destroy it. You exploit the constitution in order to replace it. You cry "discrimination" awaiting your opportunity to impose it. It's all one gigantic shell game.*
> 
> *Please find me a reputable source that indicates this is CAIR's purpose.  *
> 
> *Is there a government cover-up at play?
> 
> A 2001 raid in Switzerland unearthed a chilling manifesto now dubbed “The Project,” a detailed Islamic blueprint for infiltrating, subverting and ultimately defeating the U.S. and the West. Today, 80 file boxes worth of evidence submitted during the 2008 Holy Land Foundation trial — the largest terror financing trial in U.S. history to date — including “The Project” documents, are being withheld from the American public by the Department of Justice.
> 
> On Wednesday, September 26, TheBlaze documentary unit released the first installment of this chilling two-part series outlining how the current administration has stonewalled repeated requests by Congress to release the disturbing documents and for allowing the Muslim Brotherhood greater entree into American government. Further, the documentary reveals just how close American-Islamic operatives from groups such as the Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR) and the Islamic Society of North America (ISNA) have been to subverting the U.S. and Israel.
> 
> 
> 8216 The Project 8217 Part I 8212 All Totalitarian Ideologies Are Threat to U.S. Video TheBlaze.com*​
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Glenn Beck? How about a reputable source - not Conspiracy Theory?  I can't find any sort of independent confirmation of this from a reputable source.
Click to expand...


Where do you get off trying to discredit Glenn Beck?

Pfft.

That's like the only one who we can trust these days.

Certainly more credible and forthcoming with truthful info we need to know about the threat of Islam and Muslims than YOU.


----------



## Coyote

Dogmaphobe said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> I do question your source though -.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It was only annotated with 140 references for accuracy.
> 
> Did you need 150?
Click to expand...


A number of the annotations were to similar anti-Muslim propaganda sites - for example FrontPage (Horowitz) or "ReligionofPeace.com, DanielPipes.org - citing himself as a source?  Many of the links did not work did not work at all.  It would be nice to see something from a less biased source critically examining CAIR.


----------



## Coyote

Mojo2 said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mojo2 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dogmaphobe said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> I have no idea what you are talking about or what you think my "totalitarian views are".  I'm an American.  I don't know what you are since you have not said.  If you think I have "totalitarian views" - *please feel free to link to some examples of those views.*
> 
> I believe in a democratic form of government where minorities are constitutionally protected as are our civil rights including religion, free speech, freedom of assembly, the right to bear arms, the right to not be discrimminated against for reasons of gender, race, ethnicity, religion or sexual orientation.  I believe marriage is a right that is not determined by popular opinion.  I may not like your religion, I may make fun of it but I'll fight to the death for your right to practice in my country within our system of laws.
> 
> I don't know what you believe in and I don't care.  You know nothing about me but you do make a lot of laughable assumptions you are unable to support.
> 
> We have rights in my country.  And they are protected.  You may not like that.  But that is our way of life and it is what my country was founded upon.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You can indulge in all the insincere self-aggrandizing posturing you want, Coyote, but the truth of the matter is that by supporting the agenda of CAIR,  you provide the proof that none of these words are true.
> 
> CAIR's  purpose is to destroy our constitution and turn America into a totalitarian Islamic state.  I realize you people try to use the very values we hold dear to try to undermine us, but there are people here who are intelligent enough to see through your game. You use free speech to try to destroy it. You exploit the constitution in order to replace it. You cry "discrimination" awaiting your opportunity to impose it. It's all one gigantic shell game.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Again - who are "you people"?
> 
> Please find me a reputable source that indicates this is CAIR's purpose.
> 
> I am still waiting for some sort of link to what you claim are my "totalitarian views".
> 
> You make a lot of claims about me rather than discussing the topic - which is not me I might add.  Yet you never seem to support them other than by providing yet more conjecture about me, my supposed views, my religious views and my totalitarian desires.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> *CAIR's purpose is to destroy our constitution and turn America into a totalitarian Islamic state. I realize you people try to use the very values we hold dear to try to undermine us, but there are people here who are intelligent enough to see through your game. You use free speech to try to destroy it. You exploit the constitution in order to replace it. You cry "discrimination" awaiting your opportunity to impose it. It's all one gigantic shell game.*
> 
> *Please find me a reputable source that indicates this is CAIR's purpose.  *
> 
> *Is there a government cover-up at play?
> 
> A 2001 raid in Switzerland unearthed a chilling manifesto now dubbed “The Project,” a detailed Islamic blueprint for infiltrating, subverting and ultimately defeating the U.S. and the West. Today, 80 file boxes worth of evidence submitted during the 2008 Holy Land Foundation trial — the largest terror financing trial in U.S. history to date — including “The Project” documents, are being withheld from the American public by the Department of Justice.
> 
> On Wednesday, September 26, TheBlaze documentary unit released the first installment of this chilling two-part series outlining how the current administration has stonewalled repeated requests by Congress to release the disturbing documents and for allowing the Muslim Brotherhood greater entree into American government. Further, the documentary reveals just how close American-Islamic operatives from groups such as the Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR) and the Islamic Society of North America (ISNA) have been to subverting the U.S. and Israel.
> 
> 
> 8216 The Project 8217 Part I 8212 All Totalitarian Ideologies Are Threat to U.S. Video TheBlaze.com*​
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Glenn Beck? How about a reputable source - not Conspiracy Theory?  I can't find any sort of independent confirmation of this from a reputable source.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Where do you get off trying to discredit Glenn Beck?
> 
> Pfft.
> 
> That's like the only one who we can trust these days.
> 
> Certainly more credible and forthcoming with truthful info we need to know about the threat of Islam and Muslims than YOU.
Click to expand...


Whatever floats your boat   I prefer truth and accuracy over hysteria.


----------



## Coyote

Mojo2 said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mojo2 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Delta4Embassy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Don't suppose the Muslim bashers have stopped a second and considered how their bashing Islam and Muslims is eerily similar to how another government and people bashed another religion ~80 years ago?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That is what is so frightening about the level of hate and the complete rationalization of it. Once you start scapegoating minorities, what is the next step?  What can you justify?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> We can prevent the scapegoating of Muslims by keeping their numbers in America as small as possible and not enacting special laws just for them.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> What special laws are inacted "just for them"?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> *What special laws are inacted "just for them"?*
> 
> *Jihad Watch's Spencer: US Muslims Seek, Get Special Status*
> Thursday, 04 Sep 2014 04:36 PM
> 
> By Sean Piccoli
> 
> Muslims in the United States who want to impose Islamic law on non-Muslims have succeeded in getting the federal government to back their demands for special rights and accomodations not available to people of other faiths, Jihad Watch director Robert Spencer told *Newsmax TV *on Thursday.
> 
> But saying so gets any critic of attempts to establish Muslim exceptionalism labeled a hater, bigot or racist, Spencer told "MidPoint" host Ed Berliner.
> 
> *Story continues below video.
> 
> *
> Jihad Watch s Spencer US Muslims Seek Get Special Status
Click to expand...


And yet more questionable sources.  Jihadwatch? Spencer?  Hell - why not use Stormfront?

Ok..let's look at this article against a backdrop of "Muslims get special priveledges".


_Spencer pointed to cases across the country in which federal agencies sided with *Muslims seeking special privileges at the expense of other Americans' customs, beliefs and employment practices, and he connected those efforts to a larger scheme for Islamist dominance of America.*_​
Ok...so we're claiming these cases a part of a Islamist domination of America...quite a conspiracy theory stretch no?  But this IS Spencer after all.

_"The Department of Justice forced the Berkeley school district, right outside Chicago, to pay $75,000 to a Muslim teacher, Safoorah Khan, because she had demanded — as a first-year public school teacher — three weeks off to go on the pilgrimage to Mecca," said Spencer._​
No source was given so I found this article:  Suburban School District To Pay Back Safoorah Khan Muslim Teacher Denied Hajj Leave

The following points are made:
_IKhan applied for an *unpaid* leave of absence of 15 days from the McArthur Middle School, where she taught, in order to go on a Hajj to the holy city of Mecca in Saudi Arabia._​
_The district made the argument that she could have gone in the summer - however, the article notes the following:
Islamic scholars said, in response, that delaying her Hajj for a summer trip would have meant a wait of at least a decade, as the date of the annual pilgrimage is guided by the lunar year and changes annually. Further, Sayyid Syeed, who directs interfaith and community affairs for the Islamic Society of North America, explained to Religion News Service that *asking a Muslim person to take their pilgrimage in the summer is akin to asking a Christian to celebrate Christmas in July.*_​
US sues school over denial of Muslim pilgrimage
_The government claimed that the school district violated the Civil Rights Act of 1964 *by failing to reasonably accommodate her religious practices.*_​
Lawsuits on behalf of reasonable accommodations for religion are not uncommon, for example:
Justice Department Settles Lawsuit Alleging Religious Discrimination by the City of Birmingham Ala. Police Department OPA Department of Justice
Kentucky Fried Chicken Franchise Pays 40 000 to Settle EEOC Religious Discrimination Lawsuit

Given the above - *what special priveledges are being granted?*  None.  Just reasonable religious accommodation - the same as would be granted to any other religion. *What Islamic law  is being imposed on non-Muslims* as is being claimed?


_Spencer also cited other cases, some involving the U.S. government:_

_The *Equal Employment Opportunity Commission* sued on behalf of Somali Muslims who walked off the job at a meatpacking plant in Nebraska — and were later fired — because they weren't allowed to take prayer breaks on company time._
_A Muslim woman *sued Disney* in 2012, saying the company wouldn't permit her to wear a hijab, or head scarf, in keeping with her religion, while she worked as a hostess at an Americana-themed Disney restaurant in California._

Again - cases involving "reasonable religious accommodation"
How is that different from:
Biometric Hand Scanner Causes Mark of the Beast Lawsuit Constangy Brooks Smith LLP
http://www.citizen-times.com/story/...akery-sued-religious-discrimination/15456331/
Workers May Be Entitled to Time Off for Holidays - Lawyers.com
What special privledges are being granted? *What Islamic law  is being imposed on non-Muslims?*


----------



## Coyote

Rikurzhen said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dogmaphobe said:
> 
> 
> 
> CAIR Islamists Fooling the Establishment Middle East Quarterly
> 
> 
> Just in case anybody wants to know the nature of what Coyote is promoting so fiercely.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CAIR Islamists Fooling the Establishment Middle East Quarterly
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I could be wrong about CAIR, but I'm not wrong about the hate mongering that CAIR is exposing or that someone needs to counter the rhetoric of people like Pamela Gellar and Daniel Pipes.  If not CAIR - then someone.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Truth telling is not hate. Some ideologies are just nasty at the core and when they seek protection under the label of religion *that shouldn't exempt them from being exposed and judged.*
Click to expand...


Right.  Like exposing Pamela Gellar, Robert Spencer, Daniel Pipes, Horowitz...nasty at the core and seeking protection under the label of free speech.


----------



## Rikurzhen

Coyote said:


> Rikurzhen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dogmaphobe said:
> 
> 
> 
> CAIR Islamists Fooling the Establishment Middle East Quarterly
> 
> 
> Just in case anybody wants to know the nature of what Coyote is promoting so fiercely.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CAIR Islamists Fooling the Establishment Middle East Quarterly
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I could be wrong about CAIR, but I'm not wrong about the hate mongering that CAIR is exposing or that someone needs to counter the rhetoric of people like Pamela Gellar and Daniel Pipes.  If not CAIR - then someone.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Truth telling is not hate. Some ideologies are just nasty at the core and when they seek protection under the label of religion *that shouldn't exempt them from being exposed and judged.*
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Right.  Like exposing Pamela Gellar, Robert Spencer, Daniel Pipes, Horowitz...nasty at the core and seeking protection under the label of free speech.
Click to expand...


Since when did "nasty" become a synonym for "correct?"


----------



## Unkotare

Rikurzhen said:


> Truth telling is not hate. .




You got that backwards.


----------



## Picaro

Apparently there are still people out there who think neo-Nazis, and the ultra-rightists who post at Stormfront, are 'anti-Muslim'; they aren't, many of them  admire Islamists for the same reasons Hitler did, and they are big fans of Islamist terrorism against Jews. They very much resemble the faux 'Peace Left' and their rabid antisemitism, and cheer on vermin like Hamas, whose money and followers started up CAIR.

More on it here:

Federal Judge Agrees CAIR Tied to Hamas The Investigative Project on Terrorism



> The Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR) has been connected to the terrorist organization Hamas, a federal judge said in a July 2009 ruling unsealed last week.
> "The government has produced ample evidence to establish the associations of CAIR, ISNA, NAIT, with NAIT, the Islamic Association for Palestine, and with Hamas," U.S. District Court Judge Jorge Solis said in the July 1, 2009, ruling.
> 
> CAIR, the Islamic Society of North America (ISNA) and the North American Islamic Trust (NAIT) had protested to Solis that they were incorrectly named as unindicted co-conspirators in the 2008 trial of the Holy Land Foundation for Relief and Development. Among the allegations, HLF was accused of having provided more than $12 million to Hamas. After a 2007 mistrial, five former HLF officials convicted on 108 counts, ranging from money laundering to conspiring to provide material support to terrorists.
> 
> Following the trial, CAIR, ISNA, and NAIT have argued that their inclusion on the list injured their standing in the community, and their image. They wanted their ties to Hamas removed from the trial records and the list sealed.
> 
> Solis agreed the list should not have been made public, saying that doing so violated the Fifth Amendment rights of the listed individuals and organizations. Criticizing the decision to publish the list, the judge explained that CAIR has been subjected to "annoyance, ridicule, scorn, and a loss of reputation in the community." (see the IPTs earlier coverage of the decision to publish the list here).
> 
> However, Solis refused to remove references to CAIR and the other groups from the trial record. That's because the government introduced extensive evidence tying CAIR to Hamas. "The public," he wrote, "may make its own judgment from evidence presented at trial."


----------



## Mojo2

Coyote said:


> Mojo2 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mojo2 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Delta4Embassy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Don't suppose the Muslim bashers have stopped a second and considered how their bashing Islam and Muslims is eerily similar to how another government and people bashed another religion ~80 years ago?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That is what is so frightening about the level of hate and the complete rationalization of it. Once you start scapegoating minorities, what is the next step?  What can you justify?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> We can prevent the scapegoating of Muslims by keeping their numbers in America as small as possible and not enacting special laws just for them.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> What special laws are inacted "just for them"?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> *What special laws are inacted "just for them"?*
> 
> *Jihad Watch's Spencer: US Muslims Seek, Get Special Status*
> Thursday, 04 Sep 2014 04:36 PM
> 
> By Sean Piccoli
> 
> Muslims in the United States who want to impose Islamic law on non-Muslims have succeeded in getting the federal government to back their demands for special rights and accomodations not available to people of other faiths, Jihad Watch director Robert Spencer told *Newsmax TV *on Thursday.
> 
> But saying so gets any critic of attempts to establish Muslim exceptionalism labeled a hater, bigot or racist, Spencer told "MidPoint" host Ed Berliner.
> 
> *Story continues below video.
> 
> *
> Jihad Watch s Spencer US Muslims Seek Get Special Status
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> And yet more questionable sources.  Jihadwatch? Spencer?  Hell - why not use Stormfront?
> 
> Ok..let's look at this article against a backdrop of "Muslims get special priveledges".
> 
> 
> _Spencer pointed to cases across the country in which federal agencies sided with *Muslims seeking special privileges at the expense of other Americans' customs, beliefs and employment practices, and he connected those efforts to a larger scheme for Islamist dominance of America.*_​
> Ok...so we're claiming these cases a part of a Islamist domination of America...quite a conspiracy theory stretch no?  But this IS Spencer after all.
> 
> _"The Department of Justice forced the Berkeley school district, right outside Chicago, to pay $75,000 to a Muslim teacher, Safoorah Khan, because she had demanded — as a first-year public school teacher — three weeks off to go on the pilgrimage to Mecca," said Spencer._​
> No source was given so I found this article:  Suburban School District To Pay Back Safoorah Khan Muslim Teacher Denied Hajj Leave
> 
> The following points are made:
> _IKhan applied for an *unpaid* leave of absence of 15 days from the McArthur Middle School, where she taught, in order to go on a Hajj to the holy city of Mecca in Saudi Arabia._​
> _The district made the argument that she could have gone in the summer - however, the article notes the following:
> Islamic scholars said, in response, that delaying her Hajj for a summer trip would have meant a wait of at least a decade, as the date of the annual pilgrimage is guided by the lunar year and changes annually. Further, Sayyid Syeed, who directs interfaith and community affairs for the Islamic Society of North America, explained to Religion News Service that *asking a Muslim person to take their pilgrimage in the summer is akin to asking a Christian to celebrate Christmas in July.*_​
> US sues school over denial of Muslim pilgrimage
> _The government claimed that the school district violated the Civil Rights Act of 1964 *by failing to reasonably accommodate her religious practices.*_​
> Lawsuits on behalf of reasonable accommodations for religion are not uncommon, for example:
> Justice Department Settles Lawsuit Alleging Religious Discrimination by the City of Birmingham Ala. Police Department OPA Department of Justice
> Kentucky Fried Chicken Franchise Pays 40 000 to Settle EEOC Religious Discrimination Lawsuit
> 
> Given the above - *what special priveledges are being granted?*  None.  Just reasonable religious accommodation - the same as would be granted to any other religion. *What Islamic law  is being imposed on non-Muslims* as is being claimed?
> 
> 
> _Spencer also cited other cases, some involving the U.S. government:_
> 
> _The *Equal Employment Opportunity Commission* sued on behalf of Somali Muslims who walked off the job at a meatpacking plant in Nebraska — and were later fired — because they weren't allowed to take prayer breaks on company time._
> _A Muslim woman *sued Disney* in 2012, saying the company wouldn't permit her to wear a hijab, or head scarf, in keeping with her religion, while she worked as a hostess at an Americana-themed Disney restaurant in California._
> 
> Again - cases involving "reasonable religious accommodation"
> How is that different from:
> Biometric Hand Scanner Causes Mark of the Beast Lawsuit Constangy Brooks Smith LLP
> Dunkin Donuts bakery sued for religious discrimination
> Workers May Be Entitled to Time Off for Holidays - Lawyers.com
> What special privledges are being granted? *What Islamic law  is being imposed on non-Muslims?*
Click to expand...


Look I don't think you've got enough citations to make this go away. Loyal Americans know that anyone who loves America would not behave as you do. This is the kind of bullshit that tied up Mark Steyn in Canada. They have a name for it, someone please help me here...it's using our laws against us in pursuit of their goal of conquering America right before our very eyes.

*History of the Muslim Brotherhood Penetration of the U.S. Government*

by Clare M. Lopez
April 15, 2013 at 5:00 am
History of the Muslim Brotherhood Penetration of the U.S. Government

Given the long history of Muslim Brotherhood activity in this country, its declared objective to "destroy the Western civilization from within," and the extensive evidence of successful influence operations at the highest levels of the U.S. government, it is urgent that we recognize this clear and present danger that threatens not only our Republic but the values of Western civilization.

_"Allah is our objective. The Prophet is our leader. The Qur'an is our law. Jihad is our way. Dying in the way of Allah is our highest aspiration."_

-- Motto of the Muslim Brotherhood

The upheavals of 2011-2012 across the Middle East and North Africa swept aside secular rulers and the established political order with startling speed, and continue to focus world attention on the revolutionary forces driving these far-reaching events. Poverty, oppression, inequality, and lack of individual freedom are all hallmarks of the societal stagnation that has gripped the Islamic world for the better part of fourteen centuries, but the driving force of the so-called "Arab Spring" is a resurgent Islam, dominated by the forces of al-Qa'eda and the Muslim Brotherhood. Energized as Islam may be at this time, however, without the active involvement of the United States to help arm[1], fund[2], support[3], and train[4] the region's Islamic rebels, it is questionable whether they could have gotten this far, this fast.

This report describes how the Muslim Brotherhood infiltrated and suborned the U.S. government to actively assist, whether knowingly or not, the mission of its grand jihad. Its hard-won position at the forefront of the 21st century Islamic Awakening is possible only because of decades of patient infiltration and political indoctrination (Da'wa) in the West, and especially the United States of America, even as the grassroots work of building an organizational structure advanced steadily in the land of its origin as well. It is important to recognize the sophistication of the Brotherhood's international strategy and how the takedown of U.S. national security defenses from within was critical to the current Middle East-North Africa (MENA) campaign to re-establish the Caliphate and enforce Islamic Law (shariah).​


----------



## Mojo2

Coyote said:


> Mojo2 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mojo2 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dogmaphobe said:
> 
> 
> 
> You can indulge in all the insincere self-aggrandizing posturing you want, Coyote, but the truth of the matter is that by supporting the agenda of CAIR,  you provide the proof that none of these words are true.
> 
> CAIR's  purpose is to destroy our constitution and turn America into a totalitarian Islamic state.  I realize you people try to use the very values we hold dear to try to undermine us, but there are people here who are intelligent enough to see through your game. You use free speech to try to destroy it. You exploit the constitution in order to replace it. You cry "discrimination" awaiting your opportunity to impose it. It's all one gigantic shell game.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Again - who are "you people"?
> 
> Please find me a reputable source that indicates this is CAIR's purpose.
> 
> I am still waiting for some sort of link to what you claim are my "totalitarian views".
> 
> You make a lot of claims about me rather than discussing the topic - which is not me I might add.  Yet you never seem to support them other than by providing yet more conjecture about me, my supposed views, my religious views and my totalitarian desires.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> *CAIR's purpose is to destroy our constitution and turn America into a totalitarian Islamic state. I realize you people try to use the very values we hold dear to try to undermine us, but there are people here who are intelligent enough to see through your game. You use free speech to try to destroy it. You exploit the constitution in order to replace it. You cry "discrimination" awaiting your opportunity to impose it. It's all one gigantic shell game.*
> 
> *Please find me a reputable source that indicates this is CAIR's purpose.  *
> 
> *Is there a government cover-up at play?
> 
> A 2001 raid in Switzerland unearthed a chilling manifesto now dubbed “The Project,” a detailed Islamic blueprint for infiltrating, subverting and ultimately defeating the U.S. and the West. Today, 80 file boxes worth of evidence submitted during the 2008 Holy Land Foundation trial — the largest terror financing trial in U.S. history to date — including “The Project” documents, are being withheld from the American public by the Department of Justice.
> 
> On Wednesday, September 26, TheBlaze documentary unit released the first installment of this chilling two-part series outlining how the current administration has stonewalled repeated requests by Congress to release the disturbing documents and for allowing the Muslim Brotherhood greater entree into American government. Further, the documentary reveals just how close American-Islamic operatives from groups such as the Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR) and the Islamic Society of North America (ISNA) have been to subverting the U.S. and Israel.
> 
> 
> 8216 The Project 8217 Part I 8212 All Totalitarian Ideologies Are Threat to U.S. Video TheBlaze.com*​
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Glenn Beck? How about a reputable source - not Conspiracy Theory?  I can't find any sort of independent confirmation of this from a reputable source.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Where do you get off trying to discredit Glenn Beck?
> 
> Pfft.
> 
> That's like the only one who we can trust these days.
> 
> Certainly more credible and forthcoming with truthful info we need to know about the threat of Islam and Muslims than YOU.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Whatever floats your boat   I prefer truth and accuracy over hysteria.
Click to expand...


Well you can prefer whatever you wish because loyal Americans will not stand for this.

No, and I think we have been pretty calm until now. Too calm in the face of Muslim Brotherhood's efforts at infiltrating our highest levels of government.


----------



## Dogmaphobe

Mojo2 said:


> They say Islam is a religion of peace?
> 
> Well, it is ONLY true in the sense that when their goal of global conquest is accomplished, and all the world is under Allah's laws rather than man's laws, there will finally be peace.
> 
> Brutal religious oppression where killing Gays is expected and stoning adulterers. And honor killings. And female mutilation. And the repression of Women.
> 
> And that's just a thumbnail.




 What I have always found amazing is how it is so often people who describe themselves as "liberal" or "progressive" who act as chief apologists for this knuckle dragging backwardness. Yes, these attitudes represent such "progress" in civilization, now, don't they? These useful idiots fall for the sort of crap Coyote spews so intentionally only because she and her fellow Islamist propagandists frame any resistance to their agenda as "right wing" If resisting Islamism and all it stands for is "right wing":, then by golly, as right proper left wingers, they will support them.  The thinking (if you can call it that) goes no farther than that. Nobody seems to ever get  around to asking the question "is what I am supporting really liberal here?" as their knees are jerking so damned automatically, and their political correctness so complete that they allow themselves to become little more than programmable automatons. 

 Sometimes I think we need some new words to describe political positions. The United States, Canada, Anzac, western Europe and other societies are already liberal. Women are not just brood mares, we have separation of church and state, we have achieved levels of personal freedoms beyond those of ancient societies, and we have embraced actual liberal values.  Maybe it is a paradox here, but in order to sustain our way of life we need to CONSERVE these values. These values are under attack from Medieval thugs who seek to undermine all these values and replace them with an anti-humanist creed that seeks to wrench all of humanity back to the dark ages.  Why we have lost the ability to say "our way is better than that" is beyond me.


.


----------



## Picaro

Some either can't, or are just too intellectually lazy to make a distinction between having an open mind and a giant gaping hole in their heads. They rely on fashion and confirmation bias to tell them what they should believe. Identity politics and simplistic PCness requires little effort, and lets people pretend they're so very very outre, without really trying.


----------



## Coyote

Dogmaphobe said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> seeking protection under the label of free speech.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> and, of course, we all know what you people think of free speech, what with your blasphemy laws and whatnot.
Click to expand...


Here you go with "you people" agaiin.

I don't support blasphemy laws.  In fact - I don't support the intrusion of religion into government at all.  Religion is an individual matter not a governmental matter.  It's called separation of church and state.

Free speech.  I support your right to spew hate.  It's free speech.  See how that works?


----------



## Coyote

Mojo2 said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mojo2 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mojo2 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> That is what is so frightening about the level of hate and the complete rationalization of it. Once you start scapegoating minorities, what is the next step?  What can you justify?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We can prevent the scapegoating of Muslims by keeping their numbers in America as small as possible and not enacting special laws just for them.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> What special laws are inacted "just for them"?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> *What special laws are inacted "just for them"?*
> 
> *Jihad Watch's Spencer: US Muslims Seek, Get Special Status*
> Thursday, 04 Sep 2014 04:36 PM
> 
> By Sean Piccoli
> 
> Muslims in the United States who want to impose Islamic law on non-Muslims have succeeded in getting the federal government to back their demands for special rights and accomodations not available to people of other faiths, Jihad Watch director Robert Spencer told *Newsmax TV *on Thursday.
> 
> But saying so gets any critic of attempts to establish Muslim exceptionalism labeled a hater, bigot or racist, Spencer told "MidPoint" host Ed Berliner.
> 
> *Story continues below video.
> 
> *
> Jihad Watch s Spencer US Muslims Seek Get Special Status
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> And yet more questionable sources.  Jihadwatch? Spencer?  Hell - why not use Stormfront?
> 
> Ok..let's look at this article against a backdrop of "Muslims get special priveledges".
> 
> 
> _Spencer pointed to cases across the country in which federal agencies sided with *Muslims seeking special privileges at the expense of other Americans' customs, beliefs and employment practices, and he connected those efforts to a larger scheme for Islamist dominance of America.*_​
> Ok...so we're claiming these cases a part of a Islamist domination of America...quite a conspiracy theory stretch no?  But this IS Spencer after all.
> 
> _"The Department of Justice forced the Berkeley school district, right outside Chicago, to pay $75,000 to a Muslim teacher, Safoorah Khan, because she had demanded — as a first-year public school teacher — three weeks off to go on the pilgrimage to Mecca," said Spencer._​
> No source was given so I found this article:  Suburban School District To Pay Back Safoorah Khan Muslim Teacher Denied Hajj Leave
> 
> The following points are made:
> _IKhan applied for an *unpaid* leave of absence of 15 days from the McArthur Middle School, where she taught, in order to go on a Hajj to the holy city of Mecca in Saudi Arabia._​
> _The district made the argument that she could have gone in the summer - however, the article notes the following:
> Islamic scholars said, in response, that delaying her Hajj for a summer trip would have meant a wait of at least a decade, as the date of the annual pilgrimage is guided by the lunar year and changes annually. Further, Sayyid Syeed, who directs interfaith and community affairs for the Islamic Society of North America, explained to Religion News Service that *asking a Muslim person to take their pilgrimage in the summer is akin to asking a Christian to celebrate Christmas in July.*_​
> US sues school over denial of Muslim pilgrimage
> _The government claimed that the school district violated the Civil Rights Act of 1964 *by failing to reasonably accommodate her religious practices.*_​
> Lawsuits on behalf of reasonable accommodations for religion are not uncommon, for example:
> Justice Department Settles Lawsuit Alleging Religious Discrimination by the City of Birmingham Ala. Police Department OPA Department of Justice
> Kentucky Fried Chicken Franchise Pays 40 000 to Settle EEOC Religious Discrimination Lawsuit
> 
> Given the above - *what special priveledges are being granted?*  None.  Just reasonable religious accommodation - the same as would be granted to any other religion. *What Islamic law  is being imposed on non-Muslims* as is being claimed?
> 
> 
> _Spencer also cited other cases, some involving the U.S. government:_
> 
> _The *Equal Employment Opportunity Commission* sued on behalf of Somali Muslims who walked off the job at a meatpacking plant in Nebraska — and were later fired — because they weren't allowed to take prayer breaks on company time._
> _A Muslim woman *sued Disney* in 2012, saying the company wouldn't permit her to wear a hijab, or head scarf, in keeping with her religion, while she worked as a hostess at an Americana-themed Disney restaurant in California._
> 
> Again - cases involving "reasonable religious accommodation"
> How is that different from:
> Biometric Hand Scanner Causes Mark of the Beast Lawsuit Constangy Brooks Smith LLP
> Dunkin Donuts bakery sued for religious discrimination
> Workers May Be Entitled to Time Off for Holidays - Lawyers.com
> What special privledges are being granted? *What Islamic law  is being imposed on non-Muslims?*
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Look I don't think you've got enough citations to make this go away. Loyal Americans know that anyone who loves America would not behave as you do. This is the kind of bullshit that tied up Mark Steyn in Canada. They have a name for it, someone please help me here...it's using our laws against us in pursuit of their goal of conquering America right before our very eyes.
> 
> *History of the Muslim Brotherhood Penetration of the U.S. Government*
> 
> by Clare M. Lopez
> April 15, 2013 at 5:00 am
> History of the Muslim Brotherhood Penetration of the U.S. Government
> 
> Given the long history of Muslim Brotherhood activity in this country, its declared objective to "destroy the Western civilization from within," and the extensive evidence of successful influence operations at the highest levels of the U.S. government, it is urgent that we recognize this clear and present danger that threatens not only our Republic but the values of Western civilization.
> 
> _"Allah is our objective. The Prophet is our leader. The Qur'an is our law. Jihad is our way. Dying in the way of Allah is our highest aspiration."_
> 
> -- Motto of the Muslim Brotherhood
> 
> The upheavals of 2011-2012 across the Middle East and North Africa swept aside secular rulers and the established political order with startling speed, and continue to focus world attention on the revolutionary forces driving these far-reaching events. Poverty, oppression, inequality, and lack of individual freedom are all hallmarks of the societal stagnation that has gripped the Islamic world for the better part of fourteen centuries, but the driving force of the so-called "Arab Spring" is a resurgent Islam, dominated by the forces of al-Qa'eda and the Muslim Brotherhood. Energized as Islam may be at this time, however, without the active involvement of the United States to help arm[1], fund[2], support[3], and train[4] the region's Islamic rebels, it is questionable whether they could have gotten this far, this fast.
> 
> This report describes how the Muslim Brotherhood infiltrated and suborned the U.S. government to actively assist, whether knowingly or not, the mission of its grand jihad. Its hard-won position at the forefront of the 21st century Islamic Awakening is possible only because of decades of patient infiltration and political indoctrination (Da'wa) in the West, and especially the United States of America, even as the grassroots work of building an organizational structure advanced steadily in the land of its origin as well. It is important to recognize the sophistication of the Brotherhood's international strategy and how the takedown of U.S. national security defenses from within was critical to the current Middle East-North Africa (MENA) campaign to re-establish the Caliphate and enforce Islamic Law (shariah).​
Click to expand...


First off - I don't buy into Conspiracy Theories, let's not waste time on that. Let's talk about what can be verified - namely changes in the legal system or laws passed.  That's something that we should be able to discuss factually.


*WHAT special laws have been inacted just for Muslims*?  
* What Islamic law is being imposed on non-Muslims*?


----------



## Dogmaphobe

Coyote said:


> Free speech.  I support your right to spew hate.  It's free speech.  See how that works?



If resisting  totalitarianism, barbarity and primitivism  is considered hate, then sign me up, please. .


----------



## Coyote

*Just a reminder guys - this thread is in the Clean Debate Zone.*

*The rules are:*
*"Zone 1": Clean Debate Zone (CDZ) / Introduce Yourself (Welcome Threads): Civil discourse is the focus here, regardless of topic matter. Constructive criticism and debate is the tone. No negative repping. No insulting, name calling, or putting down other posters. Consider it a lesson in Civics.*

*We crossed the line a bit at the beginning of the thread because we did not realize it was located in the CDZ.  We are all aware of it now, so please keep the rules in mind.*

*As always, the Flame Zone is available for less than civil debate.*


----------



## Mojo2

Coyote said:


> Mojo2 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mojo2 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mojo2 said:
> 
> 
> 
> We can prevent the scapegoating of Muslims by keeping their numbers in America as small as possible and not enacting special laws just for them.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What special laws are inacted "just for them"?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> *What special laws are inacted "just for them"?*
> 
> *Jihad Watch's Spencer: US Muslims Seek, Get Special Status*
> Thursday, 04 Sep 2014 04:36 PM
> 
> By Sean Piccoli
> 
> Muslims in the United States who want to impose Islamic law on non-Muslims have succeeded in getting the federal government to back their demands for special rights and accomodations not available to people of other faiths, Jihad Watch director Robert Spencer told *Newsmax TV *on Thursday.
> 
> But saying so gets any critic of attempts to establish Muslim exceptionalism labeled a hater, bigot or racist, Spencer told "MidPoint" host Ed Berliner.
> 
> *Story continues below video.
> 
> *
> Jihad Watch s Spencer US Muslims Seek Get Special Status
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> And yet more questionable sources.  Jihadwatch? Spencer?  Hell - why not use Stormfront?
> 
> Ok..let's look at this article against a backdrop of "Muslims get special priveledges".
> 
> 
> _Spencer pointed to cases across the country in which federal agencies sided with *Muslims seeking special privileges at the expense of other Americans' customs, beliefs and employment practices, and he connected those efforts to a larger scheme for Islamist dominance of America.*_​
> Ok...so we're claiming these cases a part of a Islamist domination of America...quite a conspiracy theory stretch no?  But this IS Spencer after all.
> 
> _"The Department of Justice forced the Berkeley school district, right outside Chicago, to pay $75,000 to a Muslim teacher, Safoorah Khan, because she had demanded — as a first-year public school teacher — three weeks off to go on the pilgrimage to Mecca," said Spencer._​
> No source was given so I found this article:  Suburban School District To Pay Back Safoorah Khan Muslim Teacher Denied Hajj Leave
> 
> The following points are made:
> _IKhan applied for an *unpaid* leave of absence of 15 days from the McArthur Middle School, where she taught, in order to go on a Hajj to the holy city of Mecca in Saudi Arabia._​
> _The district made the argument that she could have gone in the summer - however, the article notes the following:
> Islamic scholars said, in response, that delaying her Hajj for a summer trip would have meant a wait of at least a decade, as the date of the annual pilgrimage is guided by the lunar year and changes annually. Further, Sayyid Syeed, who directs interfaith and community affairs for the Islamic Society of North America, explained to Religion News Service that *asking a Muslim person to take their pilgrimage in the summer is akin to asking a Christian to celebrate Christmas in July.*_​
> US sues school over denial of Muslim pilgrimage
> _The government claimed that the school district violated the Civil Rights Act of 1964 *by failing to reasonably accommodate her religious practices.*_​
> Lawsuits on behalf of reasonable accommodations for religion are not uncommon, for example:
> Justice Department Settles Lawsuit Alleging Religious Discrimination by the City of Birmingham Ala. Police Department OPA Department of Justice
> Kentucky Fried Chicken Franchise Pays 40 000 to Settle EEOC Religious Discrimination Lawsuit
> 
> Given the above - *what special priveledges are being granted?*  None.  Just reasonable religious accommodation - the same as would be granted to any other religion. *What Islamic law  is being imposed on non-Muslims* as is being claimed?
> 
> 
> _Spencer also cited other cases, some involving the U.S. government:_
> 
> _The *Equal Employment Opportunity Commission* sued on behalf of Somali Muslims who walked off the job at a meatpacking plant in Nebraska — and were later fired — because they weren't allowed to take prayer breaks on company time._
> _A Muslim woman *sued Disney* in 2012, saying the company wouldn't permit her to wear a hijab, or head scarf, in keeping with her religion, while she worked as a hostess at an Americana-themed Disney restaurant in California._
> 
> Again - cases involving "reasonable religious accommodation"
> How is that different from:
> Biometric Hand Scanner Causes Mark of the Beast Lawsuit Constangy Brooks Smith LLP
> Dunkin Donuts bakery sued for religious discrimination
> Workers May Be Entitled to Time Off for Holidays - Lawyers.com
> What special privledges are being granted? *What Islamic law  is being imposed on non-Muslims?*
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Look I don't think you've got enough citations to make this go away. Loyal Americans know that anyone who loves America would not behave as you do. This is the kind of bullshit that tied up Mark Steyn in Canada. They have a name for it, someone please help me here...it's using our laws against us in pursuit of their goal of conquering America right before our very eyes.
> 
> *History of the Muslim Brotherhood Penetration of the U.S. Government*
> 
> by Clare M. Lopez
> April 15, 2013 at 5:00 am
> History of the Muslim Brotherhood Penetration of the U.S. Government
> 
> Given the long history of Muslim Brotherhood activity in this country, its declared objective to "destroy the Western civilization from within," and the extensive evidence of successful influence operations at the highest levels of the U.S. government, it is urgent that we recognize this clear and present danger that threatens not only our Republic but the values of Western civilization.
> 
> _"Allah is our objective. The Prophet is our leader. The Qur'an is our law. Jihad is our way. Dying in the way of Allah is our highest aspiration."_
> 
> -- Motto of the Muslim Brotherhood
> 
> The upheavals of 2011-2012 across the Middle East and North Africa swept aside secular rulers and the established political order with startling speed, and continue to focus world attention on the revolutionary forces driving these far-reaching events. Poverty, oppression, inequality, and lack of individual freedom are all hallmarks of the societal stagnation that has gripped the Islamic world for the better part of fourteen centuries, but the driving force of the so-called "Arab Spring" is a resurgent Islam, dominated by the forces of al-Qa'eda and the Muslim Brotherhood. Energized as Islam may be at this time, however, without the active involvement of the United States to help arm[1], fund[2], support[3], and train[4] the region's Islamic rebels, it is questionable whether they could have gotten this far, this fast.
> 
> This report describes how the Muslim Brotherhood infiltrated and suborned the U.S. government to actively assist, whether knowingly or not, the mission of its grand jihad. Its hard-won position at the forefront of the 21st century Islamic Awakening is possible only because of decades of patient infiltration and political indoctrination (Da'wa) in the West, and especially the United States of America, even as the grassroots work of building an organizational structure advanced steadily in the land of its origin as well. It is important to recognize the sophistication of the Brotherhood's international strategy and how the takedown of U.S. national security defenses from within was critical to the current Middle East-North Africa (MENA) campaign to re-establish the Caliphate and enforce Islamic Law (shariah).​
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> First off - I don't buy into Conspiracy Theories, let's not waste time on that. Let's talk about what can be verified - namely changes in the legal system or laws passed.  That's something that we should be able to discuss factually.
> 
> 
> *WHAT special laws have been inacted just for Muslims*?
> * What Islamic law is being imposed on non-Muslims*?
Click to expand...


The point is not to get bogged down or caught up in ANYTHING which might act to encourage or make it easier for Muslims to feel comfortable in this country where they would make AMERICA their base of operations for global conquest instead of Afghanistan.

Now parse, dissect or dispute that.


----------



## Dogmaphobe

Picaro said:


> Apparently there are still people out there who think neo-Nazis, and the ultra-rightists who post at Stormfront, are 'anti-Muslim'; they aren't, many of them  admire Islamists for the same reasons Hitler did, and they are big fans of Islamist terrorism against Jews. They very much resemble the faux 'Peace Left' and their rabid antisemitism, and cheer on vermin like Hamas, whose money and followers started up CAIR.




I have been on boards where it is almost comical how neo-nazis can arrive and start discussing Middle Eastern issues and the leftists are falling all over each other in agreement until they find out they are agreeing with a Nazi. Only when the Nazi is actually labeled as such do they offer any of their insincere protestations to the contrary.  They believe the same things, but only the way they label themselves differ.

Since this thread was designed to promote the interests of Hamas, The Muslim Brotherhood and their ilk, though, the one agenda they have above all else is to make criticism of Islam impossible. These charges of "Islamophobia" are but the first step, where they seek to create a conditioned response where valid criticism of their ideology is met with immediate charge of racism. Just looking at how I have been accused of "hatred", have been accused here of being a white supremacist, and other accusations that have the stamp of the Muslim Brotherhood all over it.

Once they can establish that any resistance to their agenda is the stuff of racism, they are then allowed to operate more extensively, and create conditions where any criticism of not just their ideology, but their actions are racist. They have progressed this far in Britain, where the British have been so cowed into submission that they will offer up their children to sexual exploitation rather than face charges that they are "hateful" and a "white supremacist". Once they engineer the host society to that point, they start creating no-go zones for natives, force submission to sharia, and continue the process.

It'a all about going from point A -- liberal, western democracy and ending up at point Z -- Islamist theocracy. Right now, we might only be at point b or c, but if these Muslim Brotherhood's spokespeople can convince us that rejecting Islamism is a "phobia", is "hateful" and makes a person a "white supremacist", then they have succeeded in getting us to point d or e.


----------



## Mojo2

Dogmaphobe said:


> Picaro said:
> 
> 
> 
> Apparently there are still people out there who think neo-Nazis, and the ultra-rightists who post at Stormfront, are 'anti-Muslim'; they aren't, many of them  admire Islamists for the same reasons Hitler did, and they are big fans of Islamist terrorism against Jews. They very much resemble the faux 'Peace Left' and their rabid antisemitism, and cheer on vermin like Hamas, whose money and followers started up CAIR.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I have been on boards where it is almost comical how neo-nazis can arrive and start discussing Middle Eastern issues and the leftists are falling all over each other in agreement until they find out they are agreeing with a Nazi. Only when the Nazi is actually labeled as such do they offer any of their insincere protestations to the contrary.  They believe the same things, but only the way they label themselves differ.
> 
> Since this thread was designed to promote the interests of Hamas, The Muslim Brotherhood and their ilk, though, the one agenda they have above all else is to make criticism of Islam impossible. These charges of "Islamophobia" are but the first step, where they seek to create a conditioned response where valid criticism of their ideology is met with immediate charge of racism. Just looking at how I have been accused of "hatred", have been accused here of being a white supremacist, and other accusations that have the stamp of the Muslim Brotherhood all over it.
> 
> Once they can establish that any resistance to their agenda is the stuff of racism, they are then allowed to operate more extensively, and create conditions where any criticism of not just their ideology, but their actions are racist. They have progressed this far in Britain, where the British have been so cowed into submission that they will offer up their children to sexual exploitation rather than face charges that they are "hateful" and a "white supremacist". Once they engineer the host society to that point, they start creating no-go zones for natives, force submission to sharia, and continue the process.
> 
> It'a all about going from point A -- liberal, western democracy and ending up at point Z -- Islamist theocracy. Right now, we might only be at point b or c, but if these Muslim Brotherhood's spokespeople can convince us that rejecting Islamism is a "phobia", is "hateful" and makes a person a "white supremacist", then they have succeeded in getting us to point d or e.
Click to expand...


Great post!


----------



## Coyote

Dogmaphobe said:


> Mojo2 said:
> 
> 
> 
> They say Islam is a religion of peace?
> 
> Well, it is ONLY true in the sense that when their goal of global conquest is accomplished, and all the world is under Allah's laws rather than man's laws, there will finally be peace.
> 
> Brutal religious oppression where killing Gays is expected and stoning adulterers. And honor killings. And female mutilation. And the repression of Women.
> 
> And that's just a thumbnail.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What I have always found amazing is how it is so often people who describe themselves as "liberal" or "progressive" who act as chief apologists for this knuckle dragging backwardness. Yes, these attitudes represent such "progress" in civilization, now, don't they? These useful idiots fall for the sort of crap Coyote spews so intentionally only because she and her fellow Islamist propagandists frame any resistance to their agenda as "right wing" If resisting Islamism and all it stands for is "right wing":, then by golly, as right proper left wingers, they will support them.  The thinking (if you can call it that) goes no farther than that. Nobody seems to ever get  around to asking the question "is what I am supporting really liberal here?" as their knees are jerking so damned automatically, and their political correctness so complete that they allow themselves to become little more than programmable automatons.
> 
> Sometimes I think we need some new words to describe political positions. The United States, Canada, Anzac, western Europe and other societies are already liberal. Women are not just brood mares, we have separation of church and state, we have achieved levels of personal freedoms beyond those of ancient societies, and we have embraced actual liberal values.  Maybe it is a paradox here, but in order to sustain our way of life we need to CONSERVE these values. These values are under attack from Medieval thugs who seek to undermine all these values and replace them with an anti-humanist creed that seeks to wrench all of humanity back to the dark ages.  Why we have lost the ability to say "our way is better than that" is beyond me.
> 
> 
> .
Click to expand...


What is really liberal.

One of the best analysis I've read to date is this: UU World The Fundamentalist Agenda by Davidson Loehr - it's a long read.  The difference between fundamentalists (who are a species of conservatives) and liberals.
_
Fundamentalism's conservative impulse wants stability in societies. Liberal impulses serve to give us not stability but civility: humanity. They do this by expanding the definitions of our inherited territorial categories. The essential job of liberals in human societies is to enlarge our understanding of who belongs in our in-group. This is the plot of virtually all liberal advances._​
Most people make no distinction between "Islamism" and Islam.  The pretend to, but it comes out in their arguments that they see little distinction.  *They paint most if not all Muslims as extremists and, if not that, than the inference is that they tacitly approve extremism and just better at hiding their inner beast.*  This argument really comes into play when discussion comes around to Muslims in western countries and the US where people simply can  not conceive that they might indeed VALUE our cultural values because* they are of that culture*.  It's easier (and lazier) to draw the lines of exclusion and suspician around them than given them even a nod of acceptance.

Those who argue from this perspective will also turn on anyone who attempts to argue for inclusion over exclusion by attacking the persons motives or attributing positions that that person has not taken.  For example: they support terrorists, they support abusive treatment of women, they support abusive treatment of children, they support the abusive treatment of homosexuals, in other words if you defend against the broad brushing of an entire faith or point out the problems with some of the arguments, *you thus condone or support all the negative aspects of some of those cultures.*

A person can see a religion and recognize that there are things in that culture that need to change and work to change those things without demonizing the entire religion and it's followers around the world.  There are many people within Islam trying to reconcile their religion with a modern view of women, human rights and increased tolerance - yet they haven't renounced their faith.  They are still Muslims who see the need to reform their religion and are doing it, regardless of the danger to themselves.  That is how reform occurs.  That is how it occurred in Christianity.  Our own heritage in the treatment of women is nothing to be proud of.  We got to where we are through the bravery of women fighting and going to jail or being committed to mental institutions to finally get beyond the status of "property".  Yet, are we damning Christianity for this *or pushing for progress*?

In my opinion, liberals do not broadbrush religions - excluding them from our definition of humanity based on the actions of that groups extremists.  Liberals see *people as individuals and judge them on their individual actions.*  They see where change needs to happen and the fight for that change - even at the cost of reputation, livelyhood or lives.  Whether it's women's rights, the rights of children to get an education and not be forceably married as young teens, the rights of homosexuals to live openly, hold a job, marry, adopt children; it's those rights and those actions that a fought for - not the putting down of an entire faith because a person is too ignorant to learn.

Islam is a complicated religion, like Christianity or Judaism (I'm sticking to the Abrahamic faiths here).  There are things which tie all Muslims together and differences which divide them.   It's easy to condemn Muslims for female circumcision or honor killings as whole than it is to realize that there is nothing in the Quran or Hadith's that endorse either of those activities.  It's easy to simply lump them into the religion even though honor killings occur among non-Muslim people in certain cultures, and do not occur  among Muslims in other cultures.  Same with female circumcision which is endemic amongst certain African cultures and pre-dates the incursion of Islam into Africa.

So what do liberals do?  They condemn the barbaric practices.  They work to change the culture, *to educate*, to change people's views of this practice -* to end it.*

Is Islam built upon conquest and violence?  No more than any other religion.  The Bible, particularly the OT, is full of genocide, murder, killing unbelievers etc.  There is no mitigation in the wrath and no rules of war.  Like the Bible, the Quran is also full of admonitions to treat people justly, forge peace, and religious tolerance.  Both Christianity and Islam share a heritage of conversion through conquest and religious intolerance.   If you read it - without just going to anti-Muslim website and cut and pasting selective quotes out of context - you can see that.  Followers of a faith take from that faith what they feel is right and intertwine it with their culture.  Not everyone is a fundamentalist.  Not every Christian is a fundamentalist.  Not every Muslim is a fundamentalist.  Transformation and reformation *are always possible* and they are begun with individuals within that faith who love that faith and see the need to bring new meaning to it.  It is not brought about by Conspiracy Theories, demonizing, or excluding a group from our definition of humanity because that path leads to scapegoating and if a group is sufficiently small it becomes easy to justify removing their civil rights or constitutional protections *by redefining them*.

So who is the real liberal?  Someone who hates the person or someone who hates the act?  Someone who seeks to destroy the faith or someone who seeks to change the faith?


----------



## Dogmaphobe

Coyote said:


> What is really liberal.
> 
> ?



I will guarantee you, it isn't a long cut and paste offered to try to fool people into thinking a long established pattern of supporting Islamist behavior is anything but what it is, or that the agenda being promoted in this specific thread is anything but an attempt to create the illusion that resisting an anti-humanist political agenda is the stuff of racism.

http://www.discoverthenetworks.org/printgroupProfile.asp?grpid=6176

 Promoting this organization does not a liberal make, even if the Muslim Brotherhood spokespeople operating on the internet want us to think so.


----------



## Mojo2

Coyote said:


> Dogmaphobe said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mojo2 said:
> 
> 
> 
> They say Islam is a religion of peace?
> 
> Well, it is ONLY true in the sense that when their goal of global conquest is accomplished, and all the world is under Allah's laws rather than man's laws, there will finally be peace.
> 
> Brutal religious oppression where killing Gays is expected and stoning adulterers. And honor killings. And female mutilation. And the repression of Women.
> 
> And that's just a thumbnail.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What I have always found amazing is how it is so often people who describe themselves as "liberal" or "progressive" who act as chief apologists for this knuckle dragging backwardness. Yes, these attitudes represent such "progress" in civilization, now, don't they? These useful idiots fall for the sort of crap Coyote spews so intentionally only because she and her fellow Islamist propagandists frame any resistance to their agenda as "right wing" If resisting Islamism and all it stands for is "right wing":, then by golly, as right proper left wingers, they will support them.  The thinking (if you can call it that) goes no farther than that. Nobody seems to ever get  around to asking the question "is what I am supporting really liberal here?" as their knees are jerking so damned automatically, and their political correctness so complete that they allow themselves to become little more than programmable automatons.
> 
> Sometimes I think we need some new words to describe political positions. The United States, Canada, Anzac, western Europe and other societies are already liberal. Women are not just brood mares, we have separation of church and state, we have achieved levels of personal freedoms beyond those of ancient societies, and we have embraced actual liberal values.  Maybe it is a paradox here, but in order to sustain our way of life we need to CONSERVE these values. These values are under attack from Medieval thugs who seek to undermine all these values and replace them with an anti-humanist creed that seeks to wrench all of humanity back to the dark ages.  Why we have lost the ability to say "our way is better than that" is beyond me.
> 
> 
> .
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> What is really liberal.
> 
> One of the best analysis I've read to date is this: UU World The Fundamentalist Agenda by Davidson Loehr - it's a long read.  The difference between fundamentalists (who are a species of conservatives) and liberals.
> _
> Fundamentalism's conservative impulse wants stability in societies. Liberal impulses serve to give us not stability but civility: humanity. They do this by expanding the definitions of our inherited territorial categories. The essential job of liberals in human societies is to enlarge our understanding of who belongs in our in-group. This is the plot of virtually all liberal advances._​
> Most people make no distinction between "Islamism" and Islam.  The pretend to, but it comes out in their arguments that they see little distinction.  *They paint most if not all Muslims as extremists and, if not that, than the inference is that they tacitly approve extremism and just better at hiding their inner beast.*  This argument really comes into play when discussion comes around to Muslims in western countries and the US where people simply can  not conceive that they might indeed VALUE our cultural values because* they are of that culture*.  It's easier (and lazier) to draw the lines of exclusion and suspician around them than given them even a nod of acceptance.
> 
> Those who argue from this perspective will also turn on anyone who attempts to argue for inclusion over exclusion by attacking the persons motives or attributing positions that that person has not taken.  For example: they support terrorists, they support abusive treatment of women, they support abusive treatment of children, they support the abusive treatment of homosexuals, in other words if you defend against the broad brushing of an entire faith or point out the problems with some of the arguments, *you thus condone or support all the negative aspects of some of those cultures.*
> 
> A person can see a religion and recognize that there are things in that culture that need to change and work to change those things without demonizing the entire religion and it's followers around the world.  There are many people within Islam trying to reconcile their religion with a modern view of women, human rights and increased tolerance - yet they haven't renounced their faith.  They are still Muslims who see the need to reform their religion and are doing it, regardless of the danger to themselves.  That is how reform occurs.  That is how it occurred in Christianity.  Our own heritage in the treatment of women is nothing to be proud of.  We got to where we are through the bravery of women fighting and going to jail or being committed to mental institutions to finally get beyond the status of "property".  Yet, are we damning Christianity for this *or pushing for progress*?
> 
> In my opinion, liberals do not broadbrush religions - excluding them from our definition of humanity based on the actions of that groups extremists.  Liberals see *people as individuals and judge them on their individual actions.*  They see where change needs to happen and the fight for that change - even at the cost of reputation, livelyhood or lives.  Whether it's women's rights, the rights of children to get an education and not be forceably married as young teens, the rights of homosexuals to live openly, hold a job, marry, adopt children; it's those rights and those actions that a fought for - not the putting down of an entire faith because a person is too ignorant to learn.
> 
> Islam is a complicated religion, like Christianity or Judaism (I'm sticking to the Abrahamic faiths here).  There are things which tie all Muslims together and differences which divide them.   It's easy to condemn Muslims for female circumcision or honor killings as whole than it is to realize that there is nothing in the Quran or Hadith's that endorse either of those activities.  It's easy to simply lump them into the religion even though honor killings occur among non-Muslim people in certain cultures, and do not occur  among Muslims in other cultures.  Same with female circumcision which is endemic amongst certain African cultures and pre-dates the incursion of Islam into Africa.
> 
> So what do liberals do?  They condemn the barbaric practices.  They work to change the culture, *to educate*, to change people's views of this practice -* to end it.*
> 
> Is Islam built upon conquest and violence?  No more than any other religion.  The Bible, particularly the OT, is full of genocide, murder, killing unbelievers etc.  There is no mitigation in the wrath and no rules of war.  Like the Bible, the Quran is also full of admonitions to treat people justly, forge peace, and religious tolerance.  Both Christianity and Islam share a heritage of conversion through conquest and religious intolerance.   If you read it - without just going to anti-Muslim website and cut and pasting selective quotes out of context - you can see that.  Followers of a faith take from that faith what they feel is right and intertwine it with their culture.  Not everyone is a fundamentalist.  Not every Christian is a fundamentalist.  Not every Muslim is a fundamentalist.  Transformation and reformation *are always possible* and they are begun with individuals within that faith who love that faith and see the need to bring new meaning to it.  It is not brought about by Conspiracy Theories, demonizing, or excluding a group from our definition of humanity because that path leads to scapegoating and if a group is sufficiently small it becomes easy to justify removing their civil rights or constitutional protections *by redefining them*.
> 
> So who is the real liberal?  Someone who hates the person or someone who hates the act?  Someone who seeks to destroy the faith or someone who seeks to change the faith?
Click to expand...


You need to be telling this to YOUR people.

If you love America you would not want it to be subjected to what you know is not a happy future.

You are pushing us to war in the streets of America.

Lots of innocent Muslims will be killed in such a war.

But it would be terrible for the US.

And that's just ONE possible scenario.

Tell us what kind of future you imagine for the USA?


----------



## Mojo2

Dogmaphobe said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> What is really liberal.
> 
> ?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I will guarantee you, it isn't a long cut and paste offered to try to fool people into thinking a long established pattern of supporting Islamist behavior is anything but what it is, or that the agenda being promoted in this specific thread is anything but an attempt to create the illusion that resisting an anti-humanist political agenda is the stuff of racism.
> 
> http://www.discoverthenetworks.org/printgroupProfile.asp?grpid=6176
> 
> Promoting this organization does not a liberal make, even if the Muslim Brotherhood spokespeople operating on the internet want us to think so.
Click to expand...


Go man, GO!


----------



## Coyote

Dogmaphobe said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> What is really liberal.
> 
> ?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I will guarantee you, it isn't a long cut and paste offered to try to fool people into thinking a long established pattern of supporting Islamist behavior is anything but what it is, or that the agenda being promoted in this specific thread is anything but an attempt to create the illusion that resisting an anti-humanist political agenda is the stuff of racism.
> 
> http://www.discoverthenetworks.org/printgroupProfile.asp?grpid=6176
> 
> Promoting this organization does not a liberal make, even if the Muslim Brotherhood spokespeople operating on the internet want us to think so.
Click to expand...


What long cut and paste?  *Those were my words and beliefs.*


Thank you for posting that article.

You are no humanist or you would support the exposing of hate groups over supporting hate groups.


----------



## Coyote

Mojo2 said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dogmaphobe said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mojo2 said:
> 
> 
> 
> They say Islam is a religion of peace?
> 
> Well, it is ONLY true in the sense that when their goal of global conquest is accomplished, and all the world is under Allah's laws rather than man's laws, there will finally be peace.
> 
> Brutal religious oppression where killing Gays is expected and stoning adulterers. And honor killings. And female mutilation. And the repression of Women.
> 
> And that's just a thumbnail.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What I have always found amazing is how it is so often people who describe themselves as "liberal" or "progressive" who act as chief apologists for this knuckle dragging backwardness. Yes, these attitudes represent such "progress" in civilization, now, don't they? These useful idiots fall for the sort of crap Coyote spews so intentionally only because she and her fellow Islamist propagandists frame any resistance to their agenda as "right wing" If resisting Islamism and all it stands for is "right wing":, then by golly, as right proper left wingers, they will support them.  The thinking (if you can call it that) goes no farther than that. Nobody seems to ever get  around to asking the question "is what I am supporting really liberal here?" as their knees are jerking so damned automatically, and their political correctness so complete that they allow themselves to become little more than programmable automatons.
> 
> Sometimes I think we need some new words to describe political positions. The United States, Canada, Anzac, western Europe and other societies are already liberal. Women are not just brood mares, we have separation of church and state, we have achieved levels of personal freedoms beyond those of ancient societies, and we have embraced actual liberal values.  Maybe it is a paradox here, but in order to sustain our way of life we need to CONSERVE these values. These values are under attack from Medieval thugs who seek to undermine all these values and replace them with an anti-humanist creed that seeks to wrench all of humanity back to the dark ages.  Why we have lost the ability to say "our way is better than that" is beyond me.
> 
> 
> .
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> What is really liberal.
> 
> One of the best analysis I've read to date is this: UU World The Fundamentalist Agenda by Davidson Loehr - it's a long read.  The difference between fundamentalists (who are a species of conservatives) and liberals.
> _
> Fundamentalism's conservative impulse wants stability in societies. Liberal impulses serve to give us not stability but civility: humanity. They do this by expanding the definitions of our inherited territorial categories. The essential job of liberals in human societies is to enlarge our understanding of who belongs in our in-group. This is the plot of virtually all liberal advances._​
> Most people make no distinction between "Islamism" and Islam.  The pretend to, but it comes out in their arguments that they see little distinction.  *They paint most if not all Muslims as extremists and, if not that, than the inference is that they tacitly approve extremism and just better at hiding their inner beast.*  This argument really comes into play when discussion comes around to Muslims in western countries and the US where people simply can  not conceive that they might indeed VALUE our cultural values because* they are of that culture*.  It's easier (and lazier) to draw the lines of exclusion and suspician around them than given them even a nod of acceptance.
> 
> Those who argue from this perspective will also turn on anyone who attempts to argue for inclusion over exclusion by attacking the persons motives or attributing positions that that person has not taken.  For example: they support terrorists, they support abusive treatment of women, they support abusive treatment of children, they support the abusive treatment of homosexuals, in other words if you defend against the broad brushing of an entire faith or point out the problems with some of the arguments, *you thus condone or support all the negative aspects of some of those cultures.*
> 
> A person can see a religion and recognize that there are things in that culture that need to change and work to change those things without demonizing the entire religion and it's followers around the world.  There are many people within Islam trying to reconcile their religion with a modern view of women, human rights and increased tolerance - yet they haven't renounced their faith.  They are still Muslims who see the need to reform their religion and are doing it, regardless of the danger to themselves.  That is how reform occurs.  That is how it occurred in Christianity.  Our own heritage in the treatment of women is nothing to be proud of.  We got to where we are through the bravery of women fighting and going to jail or being committed to mental institutions to finally get beyond the status of "property".  Yet, are we damning Christianity for this *or pushing for progress*?
> 
> In my opinion, liberals do not broadbrush religions - excluding them from our definition of humanity based on the actions of that groups extremists.  Liberals see *people as individuals and judge them on their individual actions.*  They see where change needs to happen and the fight for that change - even at the cost of reputation, livelyhood or lives.  Whether it's women's rights, the rights of children to get an education and not be forceably married as young teens, the rights of homosexuals to live openly, hold a job, marry, adopt children; it's those rights and those actions that a fought for - not the putting down of an entire faith because a person is too ignorant to learn.
> 
> Islam is a complicated religion, like Christianity or Judaism (I'm sticking to the Abrahamic faiths here).  There are things which tie all Muslims together and differences which divide them.   It's easy to condemn Muslims for female circumcision or honor killings as whole than it is to realize that there is nothing in the Quran or Hadith's that endorse either of those activities.  It's easy to simply lump them into the religion even though honor killings occur among non-Muslim people in certain cultures, and do not occur  among Muslims in other cultures.  Same with female circumcision which is endemic amongst certain African cultures and pre-dates the incursion of Islam into Africa.
> 
> So what do liberals do?  They condemn the barbaric practices.  They work to change the culture, *to educate*, to change people's views of this practice -* to end it.*
> 
> Is Islam built upon conquest and violence?  No more than any other religion.  The Bible, particularly the OT, is full of genocide, murder, killing unbelievers etc.  There is no mitigation in the wrath and no rules of war.  Like the Bible, the Quran is also full of admonitions to treat people justly, forge peace, and religious tolerance.  Both Christianity and Islam share a heritage of conversion through conquest and religious intolerance.   If you read it - without just going to anti-Muslim website and cut and pasting selective quotes out of context - you can see that.  Followers of a faith take from that faith what they feel is right and intertwine it with their culture.  Not everyone is a fundamentalist.  Not every Christian is a fundamentalist.  Not every Muslim is a fundamentalist.  Transformation and reformation *are always possible* and they are begun with individuals within that faith who love that faith and see the need to bring new meaning to it.  It is not brought about by Conspiracy Theories, demonizing, or excluding a group from our definition of humanity because that path leads to scapegoating and if a group is sufficiently small it becomes easy to justify removing their civil rights or constitutional protections *by redefining them*.
> 
> So who is the real liberal?  Someone who hates the person or someone who hates the act?  Someone who seeks to destroy the faith or someone who seeks to change the faith?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You need to be telling this to YOUR people.
Click to expand...


Who are MY people.



> If you love America you would not want it to be subjected to what you know is not a happy future.



Exactly.  That's why I argue the positions I do.  I love my country and my Constitution.  It works, despite the best efforts of some.



> You are pushing us to war in the streets of America.



Hyperbole much?



> Lots of innocent Muslims will be killed in such a war.



Hence, the need to fight the senseless fearmongering and demonizing that is reminiscent of the anti-semitism of the 1930's.



> But it would be terrible for the US.



Indeed.



> And that's just ONE possible scenario.



There is never just ONE possible scenario 



> Tell us what kind of future you imagine for the USA?



A future much like the present with less fear mongering.

Now...back to the questions on your claims, which you keep dodging:

*WHAT special laws have been inacted just for Muslims*? 
* What Islamic law is being imposed on non-Muslims*?


----------



## Mojo2

Coyote said:


> What ever you say dude.  One thing is quite clear.  You have *no genuine interest in a real exchange of ideas* and that is apparent from your postings across the board.  You *continuously accuse me of positions and beliefs* I do not have and* then fail to find anything I've said* to *support *those accusations.  Y*ou don't address the points made* nor do you adhere to the spirit of civil discourse. Instead you engage in cheap shots.  I can not change your beliefs, but I can choose to recognize when it is a waste of time and a person is not interested in a free exchange of ideas.  Good day.



How do you have a truly free exchange of ideas when one person represents an almost literally unstoppable force determined to disrupt your government, your lifestyle and your life and deprive you the freedoms you were born with?

That precludes any other discussion in my world.

The movers and shakers of Islam, The Muslim Brotherhood, are intent upon bringing harm and chaos to America.

We can't tell who is a loyal Muslim to Islam or who is loyal to America.

We either pretend you are all not a threat and become victims of our folly.

Or we assume we can't tell which ones are dangerous and which ones aren't and so we keep all of you to a minimum number possible in America and save ourselves the riots and deaths we see in the streets of Europe, Great Britain and just yesterday, Canada.

And no more Mosque building.

What else is there to discuss?


----------



## Dogmaphobe

Coyote said:


> And yet more questionable sources.  Jihadwatch? Spencer?




and here is some of the wording on the Fatwa issued against him.

_"May Allah rip out his spine from his back and split his brains in two, and then put them both back, and then do it over and over"_
_
That is just so sweet!  No hate, there, of course, since all we are interested in is supporting those who issue such things .  

Thank Allah that your friends at CAIR are covering their bases. 

_


----------



## Coyote

Where_r_my_Keys said:


> Dogmaphobe said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> What ever you say dude.  One thing is quite clear.  You have *no genuine interest in a real exchange of ideas* and that is apparent from your postings across the board.  You *continuously accuse me of positions and beliefs* I do not have and* then fail to find anything I've said* to *support *those accusations.  Y*ou don't address the points made* nor do you adhere to the spirit of civil discourse. Instead you engage in cheap shots.  I can not change your beliefs, but I can choose to recognize when it is a waste of time and a person is not interested in a free exchange of ideas.  Good day.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No, I just see through your ruse is all.
> 
> In threads about Arab terrorism, you try to blur the distinction between freedom fighting and terrorism.  In a thread where  Indian Islamists were calling for the wholesale slaughter of non Muslims, you attacked the Hindus that would be their first targets, and what outraged you wasn't that they were calling for the slaughter of innocent people, but that I called them subhuman for doing so.  Here, in this thread about an organization tied to Hamas and where posters have quoted their exact words as to their agenda for replacing our liberal democracy with a totalitarian Islamist theocracy, all you seem to be able to do is call people haters, even going so far in your hysteria as to suggest they support genocide.
> 
> The pattern is patently clear about your agenda here. That is what you most definitely DON'T want exposed to the light of day.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Did he do that?
> 
> With respect, I can't believe that... do ya have a link?
Click to expand...


No.  He doesn't because the thread in question didn't play out that way.

This is the link: Indian jihadist group calls for attacks on non Muslims US Message Board - Political Discussion Forum

This is from the OP:  ..."So much for tolerance in this religion among many of its followers...."

The actual article in question starts out: *"*A group of Indian Islamic militants, operating out ofPakistan, has called for attacks on non Muslims in the region in retaliation for U.S.-led air strikes on fighters of the Islamic State in Iraq and Syria."

I merely pointed out that the Hindus in India aren't exactly innocents in the religious tolerance department and there has been an upswing in some pretty ugly violence against non-Hindu minorities including riots and massacres.  Something others would apparently not like to acknowledge.

You can see for yourself how the thread plays out and make your own conclusions.

As far as the distinction between "freedom fighters" and "terrorism" - it is indeed blurred.  Most so-called "freedom fighters" inevitably end up using terrorism as a tactic to gain their goal.  If they win - they get to call themselves "freedom fighters", if they lose they get called "terrorists".  This seems to happen over and over.  They get whitewashed over time.  What dogma implies is that means I support terrorism.  I do not.  I oppose terrorism as a tactic and whomever uses it loses any legitimacy in moral arena in my opinion and subsequently calling them "freedom fighters" is bogus when their tactics have included the deliberate targeting of civilians.

Nowhere was I "outraged" for terrorists being called "subhuman".


----------



## Coyote

Dogmaphobe said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Where_r_my_Keys said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dogmaphobe said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> What ever you say dude.  One thing is quite clear.  You have *no genuine interest in a real exchange of ideas* and that is apparent from your postings across the board.  You *continuously accuse me of positions and beliefs* I do not have and* then fail to find anything I've said* to *support *those accusations.  Y*ou don't address the points made* nor do you adhere to the spirit of civil discourse. Instead you engage in cheap shots.  I can not change your beliefs, but I can choose to recognize when it is a waste of time and a person is not interested in a free exchange of ideas.  Good day.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No, I just see through your ruse is all.
> 
> In threads about Arab terrorism, you try to blur the distinction between freedom fighting and terrorism.  In a thread where  Indian Islamists were calling for the wholesale slaughter of non Muslims, you attacked the Hindus that would be their first targets, and what outraged you wasn't that they were calling for the slaughter of innocent people, but that I called them subhuman for doing so.  Here, in this thread about an organization tied to Hamas and where posters have quoted their exact words as to their agenda for replacing our liberal democracy with a totalitarian Islamist theocracy, all you seem to be able to do is call people haters, even going so far in your hysteria as to suggest they support genocide.
> 
> The pattern is patently clear about your agenda here. That is what you most definitely DON'T want exposed to the light of day.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Did he do that?
> 
> With respect, I can't believe that... do ya have a link?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No.  He doesn't because the thread in question didn't play out that way.
> 
> This is the link: Indian jihadist group calls for attacks on non Muslims US Message Board - Political Discussion Forum
> 
> This is from the OP:  ..."So much for tolerance in this religion among many of its followers...."
> 
> The actual article in question starts out: *"*A group of Indian Islamic militants, operating out ofPakistan, has called for attacks on non Muslims in the region in retaliation for U.S.-led air strikes on fighters of the Islamic State in Iraq and Syria."
> 
> I merely pointed out that the Hindus in India aren't exactly innocents in the religious tolerance department and there has been an upswing in some pretty ugly violence against non-Hindu minorities including riots and massacres.  Something others would apparently not like to acknowledge.
> 
> You can see for yourself how the thread plays out and make your own conclusions.
> 
> As far as the distinction between "freedom fighters" and "terrorism" - it is indeed blurred.  Most so-called "freedom fighters" inevitably end up using terrorism as a tactic to gain their goal.  If they win - they get to call themselves "freedom fighters", if they lose they get called "terrorists".  This seems to happen over and over.  They get whitewashed over time.  What dogma implies is that means I support terrorism.  I do not.  I oppose terrorism as a tactic and whomever uses it loses any legitimacy in moral arena in my opinion and subsequently calling them "freedom fighters" is bogus when their tactics have included the deliberate targeting of civilians.
> 
> Nowhere was I "outraged" for terrorists being called "subhuman".
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, you didn't say a single damned thing about the Islamists calling for the death of non Muslims. *All you did was support then in targeting Hindus.*
> 
> That is not "merely" doing anything as anybody can see quite very plainly.
Click to expand...


Sure dude.


----------



## Coyote

Uncensored2008 said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> A number of the annotations were to similar anti-Muslim propaganda sites - for example FrontPage (Horowitz) or "ReligionofPeace.com, DanielPipes.org - citing himself as a source?  Many of the links did not work did not work at all.  It would be nice to see something from a less biased source critically examining CAIR.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So those are "propaganda," but CAIR is pure fact?
> 
> ROFL
> 
> And you wonder why you have zero credibility....
Click to expand...


I am not saying CAIR is pure fact, in fact I said earlier in this thread that I might be wrong about CAIR and I recognize that, like any pro or anti site - it will have it's bias'.  That's why it would be nice to see a critique on CAIR from a site that doesn't have a clearly biased agenda (in either direction).


----------



## Uncensored2008

Picaro said:


> Apparently there are still people out there who think neo-Nazis, and the ultra-rightists who post at Stormfront, are 'anti-Muslim'; they aren't, many of them  admire Islamists for the same reasons Hitler did, and they are big fans of Islamist terrorism against Jews. They very much resemble the faux 'Peace Left' and their rabid antisemitism, and cheer on vermin like Hamas, whose money and followers started up CAIR.
> 
> More on it here:
> 
> Federal Judge Agrees CAIR Tied to Hamas The Investigative Project on Terrorism
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR) has been connected to the terrorist organization Hamas, a federal judge said in a July 2009 ruling unsealed last week.
> "The government has produced ample evidence to establish the associations of CAIR, ISNA, NAIT, with NAIT, the Islamic Association for Palestine, and with Hamas," U.S. District Court Judge Jorge Solis said in the July 1, 2009, ruling.
> 
> CAIR, the Islamic Society of North America (ISNA) and the North American Islamic Trust (NAIT) had protested to Solis that they were incorrectly named as unindicted co-conspirators in the 2008 trial of the Holy Land Foundation for Relief and Development. Among the allegations, HLF was accused of having provided more than $12 million to Hamas. After a 2007 mistrial, five former HLF officials convicted on 108 counts, ranging from money laundering to conspiring to provide material support to terrorists.
> 
> Following the trial, CAIR, ISNA, and NAIT have argued that their inclusion on the list injured their standing in the community, and their image. They wanted their ties to Hamas removed from the trial records and the list sealed.
> 
> Solis agreed the list should not have been made public, saying that doing so violated the Fifth Amendment rights of the listed individuals and organizations. Criticizing the decision to publish the list, the judge explained that CAIR has been subjected to "annoyance, ridicule, scorn, and a loss of reputation in the community." (see the IPTs earlier coverage of the decision to publish the list here).
> 
> However, Solis refused to remove references to CAIR and the other groups from the trial record. That's because the government introduced extensive evidence tying CAIR to Hamas. "The public," he wrote, "may make its own judgment from evidence presented at trial."
Click to expand...



Yep, Stormfront and DailyKOS carry much of the same material.


----------



## Uncensored2008

Coyote said:


> I am not saying CAIR is pure fact, in fact I said earlier in this thread that I might be wrong about CAIR and I recognize that, like any pro or anti site - it will have it's bias'.  That's why it would be nice to see a critique on CAIR from a site that doesn't have a clearly biased agenda (in either direction).



While Muslim apologists love to attack FrontPage and the rest, I notice that you never can quite point to anything the put out that is false?

I'm anti-Nazi. I make no apologies for opposing a creed of evil.

For the same reason, I make no apology for being anti-Islam.


----------



## Coyote

Uncensored2008 said:


> Picaro said:
> 
> 
> 
> Apparently there are still people out there who think neo-Nazis, and the ultra-rightists who post at Stormfront, are 'anti-Muslim'; they aren't, many of them  admire Islamists for the same reasons Hitler did, and they are big fans of Islamist terrorism against Jews. They very much resemble the faux 'Peace Left' and their rabid antisemitism, and cheer on vermin like Hamas, whose money and followers started up CAIR.
> 
> More on it here:
> 
> Federal Judge Agrees CAIR Tied to Hamas The Investigative Project on Terrorism
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR) has been connected to the terrorist organization Hamas, a federal judge said in a July 2009 ruling unsealed last week.
> "The government has produced ample evidence to establish the associations of CAIR, ISNA, NAIT, with NAIT, the Islamic Association for Palestine, and with Hamas," U.S. District Court Judge Jorge Solis said in the July 1, 2009, ruling.
> 
> CAIR, the Islamic Society of North America (ISNA) and the North American Islamic Trust (NAIT) had protested to Solis that they were incorrectly named as unindicted co-conspirators in the 2008 trial of the Holy Land Foundation for Relief and Development. Among the allegations, HLF was accused of having provided more than $12 million to Hamas. After a 2007 mistrial, five former HLF officials convicted on 108 counts, ranging from money laundering to conspiring to provide material support to terrorists.
> 
> Following the trial, CAIR, ISNA, and NAIT have argued that their inclusion on the list injured their standing in the community, and their image. They wanted their ties to Hamas removed from the trial records and the list sealed.
> 
> Solis agreed the list should not have been made public, saying that doing so violated the Fifth Amendment rights of the listed individuals and organizations. Criticizing the decision to publish the list, the judge explained that CAIR has been subjected to "annoyance, ridicule, scorn, and a loss of reputation in the community." (see the IPTs earlier coverage of the decision to publish the list here).
> 
> However, Solis refused to remove references to CAIR and the other groups from the trial record. That's because the government introduced extensive evidence tying CAIR to Hamas. "The public," he wrote, "may make its own judgment from evidence presented at trial."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Yep, Stormfront and DailyKOS carry much of the same material.
Click to expand...


Stormfront, Neo-Nazi's and White Supremacy movments are  as Islamophobic as they are anti-semitic and racist....where do you get the idea that they like Muslims?  Or am I misunderstanding you?


----------



## Coyote

Uncensored2008 said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> I am not saying CAIR is pure fact, in fact I said earlier in this thread that I might be wrong about CAIR and I recognize that, like any pro or anti site - it will have it's bias'.  That's why it would be nice to see a critique on CAIR from a site that doesn't have a clearly biased agenda (in either direction).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> While Muslim apologists love to attack FrontPage and the rest,* I notice that you never can quite point to anything the put out that is false*?
> 
> I'm anti-Nazi. I make no apologies for opposing a creed of evil.
> 
> For the same reason, I make no apology for being anti-Islam.
Click to expand...


Fantasy Fatwah's and the supposed Egyptian Necrophilia law.
The American Muslim TAM 
The American Muslim TAM


----------



## hipeter924

Like the list, most of their comments, especially on the likes of Bill Maher are pretty amusing : Islamophobic Individuals - Islamophobia


----------



## Where_r_my_Keys

Not sure where everyone falls on this...

But just so everyone knows where I am... CAIR, on the whole, from the crusty old Islamists on the Board to the crusty young Islamists that sweep the floors and empty the trash, should be charged with subversion of the American Culture, tried on the sustaining evidence of the charges and upon conviction packed up and sent directly to GITMO.

There is no legitimate means to defend Islam at this point in Islamic/Human history.  The story has been told, they are a boil on the anus of humanity and they (ALL OF ISLAM, to the last man, woman and child) need to be ERASED.


----------



## hipeter924

Where_r_my_Keys said:


> [...]There is no legitimate means to defend Islam at this point in Islamic/Human history.  The story has been told, they are a boil on the anus of humanity and they (ALL OF ISLAM, to the last man, woman and child) need to be ERASED.


 A bit of an extreme stance, considering CAIR doesn't represent all Muslims and is just one Islamic organization, not all of them.


----------



## Where_r_my_Keys

hipeter924 said:


> Where_r_my_Keys said:
> 
> 
> 
> [...]There is no legitimate means to defend Islam at this point in Islamic/Human history.  The story has been told, they are a boil on the anus of humanity and they (ALL OF ISLAM, to the last man, woman and child) need to be ERASED.
> 
> 
> 
> A bit of an extreme stance, considering CAIR doesn't represent all Muslims and is just one Islamic organization, not all of them.
Click to expand...


There's nothing extreme about it.  Cair is defending the whole of Islam.  The Whole of Islam is a force of nothing else except HUMAN MISERY. 

The whole of Islam is comprised of individual muslims... so there's no way to 'respect the Individual' and stop the collective.  Can't be done.  (That silly nonsense is how the US has managed to lose every war since Korea.)


----------



## Uncensored2008

Coyote said:


> [
> 
> Fantasy Fatwah's and the supposed Egyptian Necrophilia law.
> The American Muslim TAM
> The American Muslim TAM



So they cited what the author calls a "fringe" Islamic?

Big deal. The point is often to expose just how loony the fringe is, You certainly have no objections to leftists pointing to the 7 member Westboro Baptists as the model of all 2.6 billion Christians in the world.


----------



## Uncensored2008

hipeter924 said:


> Where_r_my_Keys said:
> 
> 
> 
> [...]There is no legitimate means to defend Islam at this point in Islamic/Human history.  The story has been told, they are a boil on the anus of humanity and they (ALL OF ISLAM, to the last man, woman and child) need to be ERASED.
> 
> 
> 
> A bit of an extreme stance, considering CAIR doesn't represent all Muslims and is just one Islamic organization, not all of them.
Click to expand...


Islam is evil at it's core. The only way for Muslims to live at peace with non-Muslims is through apostasy. 

Muhammad was a megalomaniacal warlord who created a cult of violence and conquest. Ataturk was the best of the Muslims.


----------



## theDoctorisIn

*I'm thinking that some of you are lost, and have forgotten which forum you are in. This is the CDZ, not IP. 

If you can't discuss the topic without discussing other posters, then you need to do it somewhere else.

The next person to post about another poster, and not the topic, will have a few days off to think about what they've done.*


----------



## Uncensored2008

Coyote said:


> Stormfront, Neo-Nazi's and White Supremacy movments are  as Islamophobic as they are anti-semitic and racist....where do you get the idea that they like Muslims?  Or am I misunderstanding you?



I suspect you know this is entirely false. The Neo-Nazi and Muslim movement are joined at the hip. Oklahoma City bomber Terry Nickles attended Al Qaeda training in the Philippines, where he learned to construct the truck bomb used in that terrorist act.

Islam and Nazism have common goals and common attitudes, hatred of Jews and Israel top among them.


----------



## Coyote

Uncensored2008 said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> Stormfront, Neo-Nazi's and White Supremacy movments are  as Islamophobic as they are anti-semitic and racist....where do you get the idea that they like Muslims?  Or am I misunderstanding you?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I suspect you know this is* entirely false*. The Neo-Nazi and Muslim movement are joined at the hip. Oklahoma City bomber Terry Nickles attended Al Qaeda training in the Philippines, where he learned to construct the truck bomb used in that terrorist act.
> 
> Islam and Nazism have common goals and common attitudes, hatred of Jews and Israel top among them.
Click to expand...



Entirely false?  No.  Terrorists will share tactics and training across the board but as far as being joined at the hip?  That's a gross exageration.  Simply looking at Neo-Nazi websites will show you they hate Muslims as much as they do everyone else except white Christians.


----------



## Coyote

Uncensored2008 said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> [
> 
> Fantasy Fatwah's and the supposed Egyptian Necrophilia law.
> The American Muslim TAM
> The American Muslim TAM
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So they cited what the author calls a "fringe" Islamic?
> 
> Big deal. The point is often to expose just how loony the fringe is, *You certainly have no objections to leftists pointing to the 7 member Westboro Baptists* as the model of all 2.6 billion Christians in the world.
Click to expand...


Actually no.  I frequently use the Westboro Baptists as an example of the Christian lunatic fringe not representative of the religion in entirety.  Every religion has it's lunatic fringe and if someone doesn't like that faith - they'll use those groups in an attempt to discredit the whole.


----------



## Where_r_my_Keys

Coyote said:


> Uncensored2008 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Picaro said:
> 
> 
> 
> Apparently there are still people out there who think neo-Nazis, and the ultra-rightists who post at Stormfront, are 'anti-Muslim'; they aren't, many of them  admire Islamists for the same reasons Hitler did, and they are big fans of Islamist terrorism against Jews. They very much resemble the faux 'Peace Left' and their rabid antisemitism, and cheer on vermin like Hamas, whose money and followers started up CAIR.
> 
> More on it here:
> 
> Federal Judge Agrees CAIR Tied to Hamas The Investigative Project on Terrorism
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR) has been connected to the terrorist organization Hamas, a federal judge said in a July 2009 ruling unsealed last week.
> "The government has produced ample evidence to establish the associations of CAIR, ISNA, NAIT, with NAIT, the Islamic Association for Palestine, and with Hamas," U.S. District Court Judge Jorge Solis said in the July 1, 2009, ruling.
> 
> CAIR, the Islamic Society of North America (ISNA) and the North American Islamic Trust (NAIT) had protested to Solis that they were incorrectly named as unindicted co-conspirators in the 2008 trial of the Holy Land Foundation for Relief and Development. Among the allegations, HLF was accused of having provided more than $12 million to Hamas. After a 2007 mistrial, five former HLF officials convicted on 108 counts, ranging from money laundering to conspiring to provide material support to terrorists.
> 
> Following the trial, CAIR, ISNA, and NAIT have argued that their inclusion on the list injured their standing in the community, and their image. They wanted their ties to Hamas removed from the trial records and the list sealed.
> 
> Solis agreed the list should not have been made public, saying that doing so violated the Fifth Amendment rights of the listed individuals and organizations. Criticizing the decision to publish the list, the judge explained that CAIR has been subjected to "annoyance, ridicule, scorn, and a loss of reputation in the community." (see the IPTs earlier coverage of the decision to publish the list here).
> 
> However, Solis refused to remove references to CAIR and the other groups from the trial record. That's because the government introduced extensive evidence tying CAIR to Hamas. "The public," he wrote, "may make its own judgment from evidence presented at trial."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Yep, Stormfront and DailyKOS carry much of the same material.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Stormfront, Neo-Nazi's and White Supremacy movments are  as Islamophobic as they are anti-semitic and racist....where do you get the idea that they like Muslims?  Or am I misunderstanding you?
Click to expand...


Honestly... 

Neo-Nazis?  There's 10 of 'em man... and NO POPULAR ADVOCACY for their would-be cause.  

NONE!  

What's more... as BAD as those clowns are, there's no place on earth wherein they're slaughtering innocent people, driving them from their homes and forcing them to become skin heads OR ELSE!

Again.. (Not to put too fine a point on it...) IF there were such a place.  "WE", the Christian right (Americans) would be there kicking the hell out of 'em... .   And where we found people gathering to celebrate Skin-headism, we'd kick the hell out of them for doing that.   

See the difference?


----------



## Where_r_my_Keys

Coyote said:


> Uncensored2008 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> [
> 
> Fantasy Fatwah's and the supposed Egyptian Necrophilia law.
> The American Muslim TAM
> The American Muslim TAM
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So they cited what the author calls a "fringe" Islamic?
> 
> Big deal. The point is often to expose just how loony the fringe is, *You certainly have no objections to leftists pointing to the 7 member Westboro Baptists* as the model of all 2.6 billion Christians in the world.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Actually no.  I frequently use the Westboro Baptists as an example of the Christian lunatic fringe not representative of the religion in entirety.  Every religion has it's lunatic fringe and if someone doesn't like that faith - they'll use those groups in an attempt to discredit the whole.
Click to expand...




Westboro Baptist Church is an anomaly... such that it is wholly foreign to Christianity.  And while that cult is a lot of things, an example of Extreme Christianity, is NOT ONE OF THEM!


----------



## Dogmaphobe

Where_r_my_Keys said:


> Westboro Baptist Church is an anomaly...




If you took Westboro's actual beliefs and had them spouted from the mouth of a Muslim, you could bet your bottom dollar that huge numbers of people here would be defending them for it, instead. 

Such is the incredible hypocrisy of identity politics where it doesn't matter what is said, but only who is saying it.


----------



## Uncensored2008

Coyote said:


> Entirely false?  No.  Terrorists will share tactics and training across the board but as far as being joined at the hip?  That's a gross exageration.  Simply looking at Neo-Nazi websites will show you they hate Muslims as much as they do everyone else except white Christians.



Standard Nazis and Islamo-Nazis are very similar. While I don't frequent Neo-Nazi sites (ThinkProgress?)  what you claim flies in the face of everything I've seen, The Nazis and the Muslims appear very tight to me.

The unholy triple axis of American Leftists, Neo-Nazis, and Islamic Extremism is a dangerous cancer festering. Linked by a common hatred of Jews, the hatred of banks and corporations also strengthens the bonds of these three. Actually, we can simply point out that hate is the motive engine for all the players.


----------



## Uncensored2008

Coyote said:


> Actually no.  I frequently use the Westboro Baptists as an example of the Christian lunatic fringe not representative of the religion in entirety.  Every religion has it's lunatic fringe and if someone doesn't like that faith - they'll use those groups in an attempt to discredit the whole.



That's my point, you frequently use a 7 member group that was headed by a leftist and existed to mock and defame Christians as an example of Christians - while stating that the 10% of Muslims supporting violence are not representative.

World wide, over 10% of Muslims openly support ISIS and Al Qaeda. That would be about 130 million. Not 7 frauds pulling a scam to smear and defame an enemy - 130 million people.


----------



## Uncensored2008

Where_r_my_Keys said:


> Honestly...
> 
> Neo-Nazis?  There's 10 of 'em man... and NO POPULAR ADVOCACY for their would-be cause.
> 
> NONE!
> 
> What's more... as BAD as those clowns are, there's no place on earth wherein they're slaughtering innocent people, driving them from their homes and forcing them to become skin heads OR ELSE!
> 
> Again.. (Not to put too fine a point on it...) IF there were such a place.  "WE", the Christian right (Americans) would be there kicking the hell out of 'em... .   And where we found people gathering to celebrate Skin-headism, we'd kick the hell out of them for doing that.
> 
> See the difference?



Go into the Israel and Middle East forums here and take note of the rabid anti-Semites;

Leftists or Muslims to the last person.


----------



## beagle9

Mojo2 said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mojo2 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mojo2 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> That is what is so frightening about the level of hate and the complete rationalization of it. Once you start scapegoating minorities, what is the next step?  What can you justify?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We can prevent the scapegoating of Muslims by keeping their numbers in America as small as possible and not enacting special laws just for them.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> What special laws are inacted "just for them"?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> *What special laws are inacted "just for them"?*
> 
> *Jihad Watch's Spencer: US Muslims Seek, Get Special Status*
> Thursday, 04 Sep 2014 04:36 PM
> 
> By Sean Piccoli
> 
> Muslims in the United States who want to impose Islamic law on non-Muslims have succeeded in getting the federal government to back their demands for special rights and accomodations not available to people of other faiths, Jihad Watch director Robert Spencer told *Newsmax TV *on Thursday.
> 
> But saying so gets any critic of attempts to establish Muslim exceptionalism labeled a hater, bigot or racist, Spencer told "MidPoint" host Ed Berliner.
> 
> *Story continues below video.
> 
> *
> Jihad Watch s Spencer US Muslims Seek Get Special Status
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> And yet more questionable sources.  Jihadwatch? Spencer?  Hell - why not use Stormfront?
> 
> Ok..let's look at this article against a backdrop of "Muslims get special priveledges".
> 
> 
> _Spencer pointed to cases across the country in which federal agencies sided with *Muslims seeking special privileges at the expense of other Americans' customs, beliefs and employment practices, and he connected those efforts to a larger scheme for Islamist dominance of America.*_​
> Ok...so we're claiming these cases a part of a Islamist domination of America...quite a conspiracy theory stretch no?  But this IS Spencer after all.
> 
> _"The Department of Justice forced the Berkeley school district, right outside Chicago, to pay $75,000 to a Muslim teacher, Safoorah Khan, because she had demanded — as a first-year public school teacher — three weeks off to go on the pilgrimage to Mecca," said Spencer._​
> No source was given so I found this article:  Suburban School District To Pay Back Safoorah Khan Muslim Teacher Denied Hajj Leave
> 
> The following points are made:
> _IKhan applied for an *unpaid* leave of absence of 15 days from the McArthur Middle School, where she taught, in order to go on a Hajj to the holy city of Mecca in Saudi Arabia._​
> _The district made the argument that she could have gone in the summer - however, the article notes the following:
> Islamic scholars said, in response, that delaying her Hajj for a summer trip would have meant a wait of at least a decade, as the date of the annual pilgrimage is guided by the lunar year and changes annually. Further, Sayyid Syeed, who directs interfaith and community affairs for the Islamic Society of North America, explained to Religion News Service that *asking a Muslim person to take their pilgrimage in the summer is akin to asking a Christian to celebrate Christmas in July.*_​
> US sues school over denial of Muslim pilgrimage
> _The government claimed that the school district violated the Civil Rights Act of 1964 *by failing to reasonably accommodate her religious practices.*_​
> Lawsuits on behalf of reasonable accommodations for religion are not uncommon, for example:
> Justice Department Settles Lawsuit Alleging Religious Discrimination by the City of Birmingham Ala. Police Department OPA Department of Justice
> Kentucky Fried Chicken Franchise Pays 40 000 to Settle EEOC Religious Discrimination Lawsuit
> 
> Given the above - *what special priveledges are being granted?*  None.  Just reasonable religious accommodation - the same as would be granted to any other religion. *What Islamic law  is being imposed on non-Muslims* as is being claimed?
> 
> 
> _Spencer also cited other cases, some involving the U.S. government:_
> 
> _The *Equal Employment Opportunity Commission* sued on behalf of Somali Muslims who walked off the job at a meatpacking plant in Nebraska — and were later fired — because they weren't allowed to take prayer breaks on company time._
> _A Muslim woman *sued Disney* in 2012, saying the company wouldn't permit her to wear a hijab, or head scarf, in keeping with her religion, while she worked as a hostess at an Americana-themed Disney restaurant in California._
> 
> Again - cases involving "reasonable religious accommodation"
> How is that different from:
> Biometric Hand Scanner Causes Mark of the Beast Lawsuit Constangy Brooks Smith LLP
> Dunkin Donuts bakery sued for religious discrimination
> Workers May Be Entitled to Time Off for Holidays - Lawyers.com
> What special privledges are being granted? *What Islamic law  is being imposed on non-Muslims?*
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Look I don't think you've got enough citations to make this go away. Loyal Americans know that anyone who loves America would not behave as you do. This is the kind of bullshit that tied up Mark Steyn in Canada. They have a name for it, someone please help me here...it's using our laws against us in pursuit of their goal of conquering America right before our very eyes.
> 
> *History of the Muslim Brotherhood Penetration of the U.S. Government*
> 
> by Clare M. Lopez
> April 15, 2013 at 5:00 am
> History of the Muslim Brotherhood Penetration of the U.S. Government
> 
> Given the long history of Muslim Brotherhood activity in this country, its declared objective to "destroy the Western civilization from within," and the extensive evidence of successful influence operations at the highest levels of the U.S. government, it is urgent that we recognize this clear and present danger that threatens not only our Republic but the values of Western civilization.
> 
> _"Allah is our objective. The Prophet is our leader. The Qur'an is our law. Jihad is our way. Dying in the way of Allah is our highest aspiration."_
> 
> -- Motto of the Muslim Brotherhood
> 
> The upheavals of 2011-2012 across the Middle East and North Africa swept aside secular rulers and the established political order with startling speed, and continue to focus world attention on the revolutionary forces driving these far-reaching events. Poverty, oppression, inequality, and lack of individual freedom are all hallmarks of the societal stagnation that has gripped the Islamic world for the better part of fourteen centuries, but the driving force of the so-called "Arab Spring" is a resurgent Islam, dominated by the forces of al-Qa'eda and the Muslim Brotherhood. Energized as Islam may be at this time, however, without the active involvement of the United States to help arm[1], fund[2], support[3], and train[4] the region's Islamic rebels, it is questionable whether they could have gotten this far, this fast.
> 
> This report describes how the Muslim Brotherhood infiltrated and suborned the U.S. government to actively assist, whether knowingly or not, the mission of its grand jihad. Its hard-won position at the forefront of the 21st century Islamic Awakening is possible only because of decades of patient infiltration and political indoctrination (Da'wa) in the West, and especially the United States of America, even as the grassroots work of building an organizational structure advanced steadily in the land of its origin as well. It is important to recognize the sophistication of the Brotherhood's international strategy and how the takedown of U.S. national security defenses from within was critical to the current Middle East-North Africa (MENA) campaign to re-establish the Caliphate and enforce Islamic Law (shariah).​
Click to expand...

In order for them to do these things within the United States of America, there has to be allies who are allied with them working within, now being truthful about just who those allies are, will be key to stopping any attacks and/or their goals in the future here.


----------



## Mojo2

beagle9 said:


> Mojo2 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mojo2 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mojo2 said:
> 
> 
> 
> We can prevent the scapegoating of Muslims by keeping their numbers in America as small as possible and not enacting special laws just for them.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What special laws are inacted "just for them"?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> *What special laws are inacted "just for them"?*
> 
> *Jihad Watch's Spencer: US Muslims Seek, Get Special Status*
> Thursday, 04 Sep 2014 04:36 PM
> 
> By Sean Piccoli
> 
> Muslims in the United States who want to impose Islamic law on non-Muslims have succeeded in getting the federal government to back their demands for special rights and accomodations not available to people of other faiths, Jihad Watch director Robert Spencer told *Newsmax TV *on Thursday.
> 
> But saying so gets any critic of attempts to establish Muslim exceptionalism labeled a hater, bigot or racist, Spencer told "MidPoint" host Ed Berliner.
> 
> *Story continues below video.
> 
> *
> Jihad Watch s Spencer US Muslims Seek Get Special Status
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> And yet more questionable sources.  Jihadwatch? Spencer?  Hell - why not use Stormfront?
> 
> Ok..let's look at this article against a backdrop of "Muslims get special priveledges".
> 
> 
> _Spencer pointed to cases across the country in which federal agencies sided with *Muslims seeking special privileges at the expense of other Americans' customs, beliefs and employment practices, and he connected those efforts to a larger scheme for Islamist dominance of America.*_​
> Ok...so we're claiming these cases a part of a Islamist domination of America...quite a conspiracy theory stretch no?  But this IS Spencer after all.
> 
> _"The Department of Justice forced the Berkeley school district, right outside Chicago, to pay $75,000 to a Muslim teacher, Safoorah Khan, because she had demanded — as a first-year public school teacher — three weeks off to go on the pilgrimage to Mecca," said Spencer._​
> No source was given so I found this article:  Suburban School District To Pay Back Safoorah Khan Muslim Teacher Denied Hajj Leave
> 
> The following points are made:
> _IKhan applied for an *unpaid* leave of absence of 15 days from the McArthur Middle School, where she taught, in order to go on a Hajj to the holy city of Mecca in Saudi Arabia._​
> _The district made the argument that she could have gone in the summer - however, the article notes the following:
> Islamic scholars said, in response, that delaying her Hajj for a summer trip would have meant a wait of at least a decade, as the date of the annual pilgrimage is guided by the lunar year and changes annually. Further, Sayyid Syeed, who directs interfaith and community affairs for the Islamic Society of North America, explained to Religion News Service that *asking a Muslim person to take their pilgrimage in the summer is akin to asking a Christian to celebrate Christmas in July.*_​
> US sues school over denial of Muslim pilgrimage
> _The government claimed that the school district violated the Civil Rights Act of 1964 *by failing to reasonably accommodate her religious practices.*_​
> Lawsuits on behalf of reasonable accommodations for religion are not uncommon, for example:
> Justice Department Settles Lawsuit Alleging Religious Discrimination by the City of Birmingham Ala. Police Department OPA Department of Justice
> Kentucky Fried Chicken Franchise Pays 40 000 to Settle EEOC Religious Discrimination Lawsuit
> 
> Given the above - *what special priveledges are being granted?*  None.  Just reasonable religious accommodation - the same as would be granted to any other religion. *What Islamic law  is being imposed on non-Muslims* as is being claimed?
> 
> 
> _Spencer also cited other cases, some involving the U.S. government:_
> 
> _The *Equal Employment Opportunity Commission* sued on behalf of Somali Muslims who walked off the job at a meatpacking plant in Nebraska — and were later fired — because they weren't allowed to take prayer breaks on company time._
> _A Muslim woman *sued Disney* in 2012, saying the company wouldn't permit her to wear a hijab, or head scarf, in keeping with her religion, while she worked as a hostess at an Americana-themed Disney restaurant in California._
> 
> Again - cases involving "reasonable religious accommodation"
> How is that different from:
> Biometric Hand Scanner Causes Mark of the Beast Lawsuit Constangy Brooks Smith LLP
> Dunkin Donuts bakery sued for religious discrimination
> Workers May Be Entitled to Time Off for Holidays - Lawyers.com
> What special privledges are being granted? *What Islamic law  is being imposed on non-Muslims?*
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Look I don't think you've got enough citations to make this go away. Loyal Americans know that anyone who loves America would not behave as you do. This is the kind of bullshit that tied up Mark Steyn in Canada. They have a name for it, someone please help me here...it's using our laws against us in pursuit of their goal of conquering America right before our very eyes.
> 
> *History of the Muslim Brotherhood Penetration of the U.S. Government*
> 
> by Clare M. Lopez
> April 15, 2013 at 5:00 am
> History of the Muslim Brotherhood Penetration of the U.S. Government
> 
> Given the long history of Muslim Brotherhood activity in this country, its declared objective to "destroy the Western civilization from within," and the extensive evidence of successful influence operations at the highest levels of the U.S. government, it is urgent that we recognize this clear and present danger that threatens not only our Republic but the values of Western civilization.
> 
> _"Allah is our objective. The Prophet is our leader. The Qur'an is our law. Jihad is our way. Dying in the way of Allah is our highest aspiration."_
> 
> -- Motto of the Muslim Brotherhood
> 
> The upheavals of 2011-2012 across the Middle East and North Africa swept aside secular rulers and the established political order with startling speed, and continue to focus world attention on the revolutionary forces driving these far-reaching events. Poverty, oppression, inequality, and lack of individual freedom are all hallmarks of the societal stagnation that has gripped the Islamic world for the better part of fourteen centuries, but the driving force of the so-called "Arab Spring" is a resurgent Islam, dominated by the forces of al-Qa'eda and the Muslim Brotherhood. Energized as Islam may be at this time, however, without the active involvement of the United States to help arm[1], fund[2], support[3], and train[4] the region's Islamic rebels, it is questionable whether they could have gotten this far, this fast.
> 
> This report describes how the Muslim Brotherhood infiltrated and suborned the U.S. government to actively assist, whether knowingly or not, the mission of its grand jihad. Its hard-won position at the forefront of the 21st century Islamic Awakening is possible only because of decades of patient infiltration and political indoctrination (Da'wa) in the West, and especially the United States of America, even as the grassroots work of building an organizational structure advanced steadily in the land of its origin as well. It is important to recognize the sophistication of the Brotherhood's international strategy and how the takedown of U.S. national security defenses from within was critical to the current Middle East-North Africa (MENA) campaign to re-establish the Caliphate and enforce Islamic Law (shariah).​
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> In order for them to do these things within the United States of America, there has to be allies who are allied with them working within, now being truthful about just who those allies are, will be key to stopping any attacks and/or their goals in the future here.
Click to expand...


"I*n order for them to do these things within the United States of America, there has to be allies who are allied with them working within, now being truthful about just who those allies are, will be key to stopping any attacks and/or their goals in the future here."
*

*3-Star General: Muslims Have Infiltrated Our Government ...*
3-Star General Muslim Brotherhood Has Infiltrated All Levels of US Govt To Install Sharia Law Truth And Action*muslims*-*infiltrated*-*government*/

... the Muslim Brotherhood has infiltrated us on a very deeplevel! They now occupy the highest levels of command throughout every department our government.
*Barack Obama's Muslim Appointees in High Security Positions*
Sharia Advisors Barack Obama s Muslim Appointees in High Security Positions -*muslim*-appoi...

May 1, 2014 - This is the same Muslim Brotherhood that Barack Obama's brother, Malik, ... in Texas by coordinating the state-level government and interfaith community .... Ouradministration [i.e., the Bush administration] has the burden of ...
*History of the Muslim Brotherhood Penetration of the U.S. ...*
www.gatestoneinstitute.org/.../*muslim*-*brotherhood*-us-...
Gatestone Institute

Apr 15, 2013 - Dying in the way of Allah is our highestaspiration. ... influence operations at the highest levels of the U.S. government, it is ... This report describes how theMuslim Brotherhood infiltrated and suborned the U.S.government to ...
*Muslim Brotherhood Infiltrates Obama Administration*
www.investigativeproject.org/.../egypti...
Investigative Project on Terrorism

Jan 3, 2013 - Elibiary, who has endorsed the ideas of radicalMuslim Brotherhood luminary ... of the Muslim Brotherhoodto high level White House positions. .... Obama has Allowed The Islamists To Infiltrate Our Government [56 words].
*Want to Know Just How Close the Muslim Brotherhood Is to ...*
Want to Know Just How Close the Muslim Brotherhood Is to the Obama Admin Video TheBlaze.com*muslim*...
TheBlaze

Apr 26, 2012 - ... are infiltrating American government at itshighest levels. ... An internal Brotherhood document dubbed the Social Scientists as one of “our ...
*Former SNL Actress Victoria Jackson: 'Muslim Brotherhood ...*
Former SNL Actress Victoria Jackson 8216 Muslim Brotherhood Has Infiltrated Our Highest Positions in Gov 8217 t 8217 Video TheBlaze.com*musli*...
TheBlaze

Dec 28, 2011 - ... Jackson: 'Muslim Brotherhood HasInfiltrated Our Highest Positions in Gov't' ... has infiltratedthe American government at its highest levels.
*[Watch] Congressman Louie Gohmert - DHS Infiltrated By ...*
gopthedailydose.com/.../congressman-louie-gohmert-dhs-*infiltrated*-by-...

Sep 11, 2014 - There are many Muslim Brotherhood agents within the Obama ... agents positioned within the highest levels of the United States government. ... for our terrorist enemies, that even Obama's top advisors are speaking to the ...
*“Jerry” Boykin — Muslim Brotherhood has deeply infiltrated ...*
cdrkerchner.wordpress.com/.../lt-gen-ret-william-jerry-boykin-*muslim*-*b*...

Feb 28, 2014 - Lt Gen (Ret.) William "Jerry" Boykin -- TheMuslim Brotherhood has deeply infiltrated our governmentto the highest levels since Obama has ...
*Michele Bachmann Points To Huma Abedin As Muslim ...*
www.huffingtonpost.com/.../michele-bachmann-hu...
The Huffington Post

Jul 17, 2012 - At any rate, if the Muslim Brotherhood wanted to infiltrate Congress, why wouldn't they do .... Beware Of 'Gangster Government' ..... Most Recent.


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## Mojo2

Where_r_my_Keys said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Uncensored2008 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Picaro said:
> 
> 
> 
> Apparently there are still people out there who think neo-Nazis, and the ultra-rightists who post at Stormfront, are 'anti-Muslim'; they aren't, many of them  admire Islamists for the same reasons Hitler did, and they are big fans of Islamist terrorism against Jews. They very much resemble the faux 'Peace Left' and their rabid antisemitism, and cheer on vermin like Hamas, whose money and followers started up CAIR.
> 
> More on it here:
> 
> Federal Judge Agrees CAIR Tied to Hamas The Investigative Project on Terrorism
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR) has been connected to the terrorist organization Hamas, a federal judge said in a July 2009 ruling unsealed last week.
> "The government has produced ample evidence to establish the associations of CAIR, ISNA, NAIT, with NAIT, the Islamic Association for Palestine, and with Hamas," U.S. District Court Judge Jorge Solis said in the July 1, 2009, ruling.
> 
> CAIR, the Islamic Society of North America (ISNA) and the North American Islamic Trust (NAIT) had protested to Solis that they were incorrectly named as unindicted co-conspirators in the 2008 trial of the Holy Land Foundation for Relief and Development. Among the allegations, HLF was accused of having provided more than $12 million to Hamas. After a 2007 mistrial, five former HLF officials convicted on 108 counts, ranging from money laundering to conspiring to provide material support to terrorists.
> 
> Following the trial, CAIR, ISNA, and NAIT have argued that their inclusion on the list injured their standing in the community, and their image. They wanted their ties to Hamas removed from the trial records and the list sealed.
> 
> Solis agreed the list should not have been made public, saying that doing so violated the Fifth Amendment rights of the listed individuals and organizations. Criticizing the decision to publish the list, the judge explained that CAIR has been subjected to "annoyance, ridicule, scorn, and a loss of reputation in the community." (see the IPTs earlier coverage of the decision to publish the list here).
> 
> However, Solis refused to remove references to CAIR and the other groups from the trial record. That's because the government introduced extensive evidence tying CAIR to Hamas. "The public," he wrote, "may make its own judgment from evidence presented at trial."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Yep, Stormfront and DailyKOS carry much of the same material.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Stormfront, Neo-Nazi's and White Supremacy movments are  as Islamophobic as they are anti-semitic and racist....where do you get the idea that they like Muslims?  Or am I misunderstanding you?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Honestly...
> 
> Neo-Nazis?  There's 10 of 'em man... and NO POPULAR ADVOCACY for their would-be cause.
> 
> NONE!
> 
> What's more... as BAD as those clowns are, there's no place on earth wherein they're slaughtering innocent people, driving them from their homes and forcing them to become skin heads OR ELSE!
> 
> Again.. (Not to put too fine a point on it...) IF there were such a place.  "WE", the Christian right (Americans) would be there kicking the hell out of 'em... .   And where we found people gathering to celebrate Skin-headism, we'd kick the hell out of them for doing that.
> 
> See the difference?
Click to expand...



Great post!


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## Dogmaphobe

beagle9 said:


> In order for them to do these things within the United States of America, there has to be allies who are allied with them working within
> 
> 
> 
> .




Looking around...........

Yep, sure looks like they have  some very commited allies.

Now what?


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## Mojo2

Uncensored2008 said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> I am not saying CAIR is pure fact, in fact I said earlier in this thread that I might be wrong about CAIR and I recognize that, like any pro or anti site - it will have it's bias'.  That's why it would be nice to see a critique on CAIR from a site that doesn't have a clearly biased agenda (in either direction).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> While Muslim apologists love to attack FrontPage and the rest, I notice that you never can quite point to anything the put out that is false?
> 
> I'm anti-Nazi. I make no apologies for opposing a creed of evil.
> 
> For the same reason, I make no apology for being anti-Islam.
Click to expand...



*"While Muslim apologists love to attack FrontPage and the rest, I notice that you never can quite point to anything the put out that is false?

I'm anti-Nazi. I make no apologies for opposing a creed of evil.

For the same reason, I make no apology for being anti-Islam."
*





Great post!



M2


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## georgephillip

*Bullying is for Losers:*
"(SAN DIEGO, CA, 10/30/14) – Last week, the San Diego chapter of the Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR-San Diego), in collaboration with the Al-Manar Weekend School, held two anti-bullying seminars, called "Bullying is for Losers."

"The Saturday event attracted about 70 students and parents while the Sunday program was attended by more than 120 students, parent and administrators.

"'This is a very important topic for parents, youth and young kids, we should be active and up to date with the issues facing our children and adolescents,' said the principal of the Al-Manar Weekend School, Roula Aoneh. 'CAIR's anti-bullying seminars are really informative and interactive, I encourage all schools, parents and students to benefit from it.'

"'It is absolutely important for us to empower our young community members by providing them information about bullying and how to deal with it,' said the CAIR-San Diego Executive Director Hanif Mohebi. 'Many of the bullying incidents in our community go unreported, it's important for our community to understand the value of reporting such incidents to the proper authorities and our organization.'"
CAIR-San Diego Hosts Two Anti-Bullying Seminars Bullying is for Losers - CAIR


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## Unkotare

Unkotare said:


> Rikurzhen said:
> 
> 
> 
> Can you become Japanese? Can a Muslim from Nigeria also become a Japanese person?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Are you really incapable of distinguishing citizenship from ethnicity?
Click to expand...

.


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## Coyote

Uncensored2008 said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> Entirely false?  No.  Terrorists will share tactics and training across the board but as far as being joined at the hip?  That's a gross exageration.  Simply looking at Neo-Nazi websites will show you they hate Muslims as much as they do everyone else except white Christians.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Standard Nazis and Islamo-Nazis are very similar. While I don't frequent Neo-Nazi sites (ThinkProgress?)  what you claim flies in the face of everything I've seen, The Nazis and the Muslims appear very tight to me.
> 
> The unholy triple axis of American Leftists, Neo-Nazis, and Islamic Extremism is a dangerous cancer festering. Linked by a common hatred of Jews, the hatred of banks and corporations also strengthens the bonds of these three. Actually, we can simply point out that hate is the motive engine for all the players.
Click to expand...



Neo-Nazi's (American Rightists I suppose, using your terminology) are very anti-immigrant, anti-Islam, nationalistic.  They've buried their anti-semitism but it's still there if you scratch beneath surface.  It's been turned into anti-Muslim to become more acceptable but a leopard doesn't change it's spots.  Hate is their fuel - hatred of the other, hatred of gays, hatred of blacks, hatred of Jews, hatred of Muslims, hatred of Mexicans.  We saw that in full display in Charlottesville didn't we?


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## Uncensored2008

Coyote said:


> Uncensored2008 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> Entirely false?  No.  Terrorists will share tactics and training across the board but as far as being joined at the hip?  That's a gross exageration.  Simply looking at Neo-Nazi websites will show you they hate Muslims as much as they do everyone else except white Christians.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Standard Nazis and Islamo-Nazis are very similar. While I don't frequent Neo-Nazi sites (ThinkProgress?)  what you claim flies in the face of everything I've seen, The Nazis and the Muslims appear very tight to me.
> 
> The unholy triple axis of American Leftists, Neo-Nazis, and Islamic Extremism is a dangerous cancer festering. Linked by a common hatred of Jews, the hatred of banks and corporations also strengthens the bonds of these three. Actually, we can simply point out that hate is the motive engine for all the players.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Neo-Nazi's (American Rightists I suppose, using your terminology) are very anti-immigrant, anti-Islam, nationalistic.  They've buried their anti-semitism but it's still there if you scratch beneath surface.  It's been turned into anti-Muslim to become more acceptable but a leopard doesn't change it's spots.  Hate is their fuel - hatred of the other, hatred of gays, hatred of blacks, hatred of Jews, hatred of Muslims, hatred of Mexicans.  We saw that in full display in Charlottesville didn't we?
Click to expand...



It took you 4 1/2 years to come up with a lie that retarded?


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## Shrimpbox

Seems like you are living in the past coyote.

Opinion | The Southern Poverty Law Center has lost all credibility


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