# Islam and WWII



## sealadaigh

what this is actually is pretty ridiculous, and i have no idea how it works, but if this is the approach, i don't like it already.

surely this will prove nothing except that a bright, knowledgeable jewish woman can wipe up the floor with a poor, ignorant, drunk, papist paddy.

here is what you will hit me with to your claim that islam supported hitler...amin al-husseini. perhaps you may be able to find a couple of more islamic leaders who formed minor liasons with the NAZIs.

what i will do is explain that al-husseini is a man who had fought for for arab/palestinian nationalism and against european colonialism since long before hitler rose to power and i will point out further that in al-husseini's "relationship" with hitler was based upon, as stated in his memoirs, the concept that "the enemy of your enemy is your friend" and that, as he conveyed to hitler when they met in 1941, that "'The Arabs were Germany's natural friends because they had the same enemies... namely the English, the Jews, and the Communists'.[ it should be noted that "the Jews" he to whom he was referring were the recent european immigrants who were migrating to the region since the balfour letter. i will then suggest you not confuse what you seem to think as some sort of enthsiastic support with a pragmatic indifference.

surely, surely, you don't expect al-husseini, to gasp in horror, say "hitler is killing the jews of europe. we must do everything we caan do to save these poor souls so they can come and steal our land, further displacing us.", do you.

then, i am going to hit you with the vastness of the muslim world, which stretched from west africa through the mideast into asia and parts of eastern europe. very conservatively, at the time of WWII. islam had 500,000,000 adherents, and again, very conservatively. (i am not going to go though all the population demographics at the time, but be assured, an errors in my guesstimates will substantially favour your position}. very generously, the palestinian people numbered 5,000,000 people at the time, or 1% of the islamic people.

after that, i will point out some muslim nations such as morocco, who deied hitler to protect their jewish population or albania, the only european nation to have a higher ewish population after WWII than before.

you of course will provide "proof", in all probability from propaganda sites, that muslims cooperated with hitler. i will ignore them completely because they are, guess what, propaganda sources. when asked, i will provide evidence from mainstream news and history sites.

i will conclude with an analogy saying your interpreting a muslim anti-colonialist leader's meeting with hitler as proof of islamic support of hitler would not be unlike me saying that the christian leader of a christian nation, FDR, meeting on friendly terms with joe stalin at pottsdam is evidence of christian support for stalinist communism.

and again, re our earlier exchanges, WWII was about far, far more than the holocaust of the jews and, in fact, that jews had very little to do with any of it in the grand scheme of things and you should not let your ethnocentricity skew your analysis of history.


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## cereal_killer

*Debate will end Sunday, March 10 at 7:30PM Central at which time thread will be closed *


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## sealadaigh

cereal_killer said:


> *Debate will end Sunday, March 10 at 7:30PM Central at which time thread will be closed *




islam has no central authority. it cannot support anything as a body.

the only major religion i know of that has a centrall authority is the catholic church.

i have already acknoledge that some muslim leaders supported hitler. haj amin al -husseini represented about 1,000,000 palestinians, to include christians and indigenous jews to some extent against european colonialism.

there were between 300,000,000 and 500,000,000 muslims during that period. the number varies because there were no acvcurate census data at those times.

the world population during WWII was 2.3 billion.

i rest my case.

proof is facts and opinions are not facts.


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## tinydancer

It is my intention in this debate to prove Islam's direct historical ties to the Nazis and Hitler.

 I will prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that the Nazi propaganda machine collaborated with Arab exiles to pervert portions of the Koran and how traditions of Islam were used by both the Nazis and the exiles in their incessant broadcasts to the Arab world. 

First we have to recognize the major Muslim player in this collaboration. The Grand Mufti of Jerusalem. 

For you Seal and for others who are watching here is a brief history of this man. Seal, this was not a "one night stand" between Hitler and the Grand Mufti.

This man was not only an integral part of the Nazi propaganda machine; he also recruited Muslims for the SS.

Haj Amin al-Husseini

This man who was anti British and anti Jew first fought in WWI with the Ottoman Army, repositioned himself in Syria at the end of WWI and then moved to Palestine.

Oddly enough he was appointed Grand Mufti of Jerusalem by the First High Commissioner to Palestine, Herbert Samuel a British Jew.

This raised his profile and power dramatically in the Arab world. In 1937 during the Arab revolt the Grand Mufti was stripped of his position and to avoid an arrest warrant he fled Palestine. He first landed in Lebanon and then moved on to the Kingdom of Iraq.

That's where he really kicks into forming alliances with the Axis powers in WWII.

While in Iraq, he issued a fatwa against Britain.

*"Al-Husseini used his influence and ties with the Germans to promote Arab nationalism in Iraq.

 He was among the key promoters of the pan-Arab Al-Muthanna Club, and supported the coup d'état by Rashid Ali in April 1941.

The situation of Iraq's Jews rapidly deteriorated, with extortions and sometimes murders taking place.

 When the Anglo-Iraqi War broke out, al-Husseini used his influence to issue a fatwa for a holy war against Britain.

 As the British advanced on the capital, the Farhud pogrom in Baghdad, led by members of the Al-Muthanna Club, which had served as a conduit for German propaganda funding, erupted in June 1941, following the Iraqi defeat and the collapse of Rashid Ali's government.

The pogrom was rooted in antisemitic incitement during the preceding decade against the backdrop of the conflict between Arabs and Jews in Palestine.

When the war failed for the Iraqis - given its paucity, German and Italian assistance played a negligible role in the war -al-Husseini escaped to Persia (together with Rashid Ali), where he was granted legation asylum first by Japan, and then by Italy.

On 8 October, after the occupation of Persia by the Allies and after the new Persian government of Shah Mohammad Reza Pahlavi severed diplomatic relations with the Axis powers, al-Husseini was taken under Italian protection and conveyed through Turkey to Axis Europe in an operation organized by Italian Military Intelligence (Servizio
Informazioni Militari, or SIM)*

Haj Amin al-Husseini - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

And in 1941 he moved to Berlin.

Of his connections to Mussolini and Hitler, there is no doubt.


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## tinydancer

reabhloideach said:


> cereal_killer said:
> 
> 
> 
> *Debate will end Sunday, March 10 at 7:30PM Central at which time thread will be closed *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> islam has no central authority. it cannot support anything as a body.
> 
> the only major religion i know of that has a centrall authority is the catholic church.
> 
> i have already acknoledge that some muslim leaders supported hitler. haj amin al -husseini represented about 1,000,000 palestinians, to include christians and indigenous jews to some extent against european colonialism.
> 
> there were between 300,000,000 and 500,000,000 muslims during that period. the number varies because there were no acvcurate census data at those times.
> 
> the world population during WWII was 2.3 billion.
> 
> i rest my case.
> 
> proof is facts and opinions are not facts.
Click to expand...


The problem is that you are debating a straw man here. I'm very specific with words.

The issue is Islam's direct historical ties to Hitler and the Nazis. Not that all Muslims world wide supported the Nazis.

That would be as foolish as trying to say all Catholics world wide supported the Nazis just because there was one homicidal pod of Franciscan Monks who ran a death camp.


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## sealadaigh

tinydancer said:


> reabhloideach said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> cereal_killer said:
> 
> 
> 
> *Debate will end Sunday, March 10 at 7:30PM Central at which time thread will be closed *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> islam has no central authority. it cannot support anything as a body.
> 
> the only major religion i know of that has a centrall authority is the catholic church.
> 
> i have already acknoledge that some muslim leaders supported hitler. haj amin al -husseini represented about 1,000,000 palestinians, to include christians and indigenous jews to some extent against european colonialism.
> 
> there were between 300,000,000 and 500,000,000 muslims during that period. the number varies because there were no acvcurate census data at those times.
> 
> the world population during WWII was 2.3 billion.
> 
> i rest my case.
> 
> proof is facts and opinions are not facts.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The problem is that you are debating a straw man here. I'm very specific with words.
> 
> The issue is Islam's direct historical ties to Hitler and the Nazis. Not that all Muslims world wide supported the Nazis.
> 
> That would be as foolish as trying to say all Catholics world wide supported the Nazis just because there was one homicidal pod of Franciscan Monks who ran a death camp.
Click to expand...


fine, i already conceded that some muslims had a connection with hitler, just as some jews (160,000 jewish soldiers in hitlers army (bryan rigg) and some catholics as well. i am not claiming judaism's direct historical ties to hitler or christianity's direct ties to hitler.

you oughta read your wiki source carefully, by the way. wiki is a good source, if you don't cherry pick.

you have successfully shown one muslim's connection with hitler. haj amin al-husseini does not represent islam any more than charles lindberg represents christianity.

try again.


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## tinydancer

Now in your OP in your own words you stated this:



> you of course will provide "proof", in all probability from propaganda
> sites, that muslims cooperated with hitler. i will ignore them
> completely because they are, guess what, propaganda sources. when
> asked, i will provide evidence from mainstream news and history sites



Muslim co-operation with Hitler is a fact. It is history. Neither of these links could be considered a "propaganda source".

From the BBC Radio 4 documentary we have this synopsis. The website is still saying that the program is not currently available, but there is no doubt that the documentary was made.

Please note the word Muslim in title. Sort of screams "muslim cooperation" don't you think?

* Hitler's Muslim Legions*







*It was after Germany's invasion of Yugoslavia and the Soviet Union in 1941 that Hitler's attention was first drawn to the potential for Muslim recruits to swell his ranks.

 For the many thousands of captured Soviet Muslims, the opportunity to serve in the Wehrmacht offered an escape from the brutality and starvation of the prison camps. Elsewhere, a major recruitment drive amongst Bosnian Muslims led to tens of thousands signing up for the Waffen-SS.

 Formed into exclusive Muslim units, these men fought in some of the most brutal campaigns of the entire war.

This programme investigates why Hitler and Himmler apparently cast aside their Nazi ideal of an Aryan master race, justifying the admission of Islam into their ranks. 

It asks what attracted these men to fight for the Third Reich, how they were treated by their German officers and how they conducted themselves in the bedlam of war.

 Were they hopeless soldiers who committed unspeakable atrocities; or did they fight bravely for the Fuhrer?

We examine the fate of these Muslims at the end of the war. With Hitler dead and the Third Reich defeated there was nothing to protect them, and most were killed as traitors.

Presented by Julian O'Halloran.

Producer: Jennifer Chryss
A Juniper production for BBC Radio 4*

BBC Radio 4 - Hitler's Muslim Legions


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## tinydancer

History Channel could not possibly be considered a "propaganda source". 

Note the title carefully.

*History Channels Nazi Collaborators Islam and The Grand Mufti part 1 of 2*

[ame=http://youtu.be/xU7g57zFo5c]History Channels Nazi Collaborators Islam and The Grand Mufti part 1 of 2 - YouTube[/ame]


*History Channels Nazi Collaborators Islam and The Grand Mufti part 2 of 2 *

[ame=http://youtu.be/KeZxfsmzaiY]History Channels Nazi Collaborators Islam and The Grand Mufti part 2 of 2 - YouTube[/ame]


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## tinydancer

reabhloideach said:


> tinydancer said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> reabhloideach said:
> 
> 
> 
> islam has no central authority. it cannot support anything as a body.
> 
> the only major religion i know of that has a centrall authority is the catholic church.
> 
> i have already acknoledge that some muslim leaders supported hitler. haj amin al -husseini represented about 1,000,000 palestinians, to include christians and indigenous jews to some extent against european colonialism.
> 
> there were between 300,000,000 and 500,000,000 muslims during that period. the number varies because there were no acvcurate census data at those times.
> 
> the world population during WWII was 2.3 billion.
> 
> i rest my case.
> 
> proof is facts and opinions are not facts.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The problem is that you are debating a straw man here. I'm very specific with words.
> 
> The issue is Islam's direct historical ties to Hitler and the Nazis. Not that all Muslims world wide supported the Nazis.
> 
> That would be as foolish as trying to say all Catholics world wide supported the Nazis just because there was one homicidal pod of Franciscan Monks who ran a death camp.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> fine, i already conceded that some muslims had a connection with hitler, just as some jews (160,000 jewish soldiers in hitlers army (bryan rigg) and some catholics as well. i am not claiming judaism's direct historical ties to hitler or christianity's direct ties to hitler.
> 
> you oughta read your wiki source carefully, by the way. wiki is a good source, if you don't cherry pick.
> 
> you have successfully shown one muslim's connection with hitler. haj amin al-husseini does not represent islam any more than charles lindberg represents christianity.
> 
> try again.
Click to expand...


There was far more than one Arab who was exiled who collaborated with the Nazis. I shall continue.

This is not just a matter of numbers of individuals involved.  It was the actions taken by these collaborators who attempted in collusion with the Nazi propaganda machine to poison the minds, hearts and souls of the Arab world with their hateful rhetoric.

I do not take this issue lightly. For their legacy lives on today, and we all still pay a price one way or another for the generational damaged caused by them.


----------



## sealadaigh

tinydancer said:


> Now in your OP in your own words you stated this:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> you of course will provide "proof", in all probability from propaganda
> sites, that muslims cooperated with hitler. i will ignore them
> completely because they are, guess what, propaganda sources. when
> asked, i will provide evidence from mainstream news and history sites
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Muslim co-operation with Hitler is a fact. It is history. Neither of these links could be considered a "propaganda source".
> 
> From the BBC Radio 4 documentary we have this synopsis. The website is still saying that the program is not currently available, but there is no doubt that the documentary was made.
> 
> Please note the word Muslim in title. Sort of screams "muslim cooperation" don't you think?
> 
> * Hitler's Muslim Legions*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *It was after Germany's invasion of Yugoslavia and the Soviet Union in 1941 that Hitler's attention was first drawn to the potential for Muslim recruits to swell his ranks.
> 
> For the many thousands of captured Soviet Muslims, the opportunity to serve in the Wehrmacht offered an escape from the brutality and starvation of the prison camps. Elsewhere, a major recruitment drive amongst Bosnian Muslims led to tens of thousands signing up for the Waffen-SS.
> 
> Formed into exclusive Muslim units, these men fought in some of the most brutal campaigns of the entire war.
> 
> This programme investigates why Hitler and Himmler apparently cast aside their Nazi ideal of an Aryan master race, justifying the admission of Islam into their ranks.
> 
> It asks what attracted these men to fight for the Third Reich, how they were treated by their German officers and how they conducted themselves in the bedlam of war.
> 
> Were they hopeless soldiers who committed unspeakable atrocities; or did they fight bravely for the Fuhrer?
> 
> We examine the fate of these Muslims at the end of the war. With Hitler dead and the Third Reich defeated there was nothing to protect them, and most were killed as traitors.
> 
> Presented by Julian O'Halloran.
> 
> Producer: Jennifer Chryss
> A Juniper production for BBC Radio 4*
> 
> BBC Radio 4 - Hitler's Muslim Legions
Click to expand...



i think i would be horribly unjust were i to try to claim judaism's historical link with the NAZIs based upon the jewish kapo guards. were i to do so, you could fairly call me a bigot.

neither islam nor judaism has any central authority. you are not proving islam's historical connection with the NAZIs. what you are proving that some muslims or some muslim groups  under different circumstances cooperated in some way with the NAZIs.


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## tinydancer

Now to your phrase "one Muslim". 

Not only was he appointed Grand Mufti of Jerusalem (this came with a life tenure) but he also was elected President of the Supreme Muslim Council. 

Look what he controlled. He wielded great power. 

*The Council controlled the Waqf funds, worth annually tens of thousands of pounds and the orphan funds, worth annually about £50,000, as compared to the £600,000 in the Jewish Agency's annual budget.

 In addition, he controlled the Islamic courts in Palestine. Among other functions, these courts were entrusted with the power to appoint teachers and preachers.*

Haj Amin al-Husseini - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Grand Mufti was considered so powerful that he declared a fatwa on Britain. And when he ran from Iraq he was so revered the Italians brought him to Italy.

Read this carefully. He's granted audiences with Mussolini. Hitler. Himmler was a fan. 
Not "just one Muslim".

*
January 1941
Al-Husayni asks Hitler for a statement recognizing: 1) the
independence of the Arab states from British and French colonial rule;
2) the right of the independent Arab states to form a union; and 3)
the right of the independent Arab authorities in Palestine to
eliminate the proposed Jewish homeland there.

April 1, 1941
Al-Husayni participates in a pro-Axis coup in Iraq. The new
government, under Rashid 'Ali al-Kailani, deploys al-Husayni as the
key contact to the Axis powers.

May 1941
Germany begins to supply al-Husayni, now in Baghdad, with payments to
foment an uprising in Palestine.

May 9, 1941
Al-Husayni issues a fatwa in a radio speech from Baghdad, calling
Muslims to engage in a holy war against Great Britain.

May 29, 1941
As British troops approach Baghdad, al-Husayni flees across the border to Iran.

June 1-2, 1941
As pro-British Iraqi troops enter Baghdad, Iraqi civilians perpetrate
a pogrom, known as the Farhud, on the Jewish citizens of Baghdad.
After 128 Jews are killed and 210 injured, British troops restore
order.

July 1941
The German Abwehr establishes a German-Arab Training Department at a
base near Athens, Greece, to train Arab volunteers for service as
auxiliaries in the German Wehrmacht.

August 1941
Great Britain and the Soviet Union occupy Iran.

October 1941
Italian diplomats smuggle al-Husayni out of Iran to Italy.

October 27, 1941
Al-Husayni meets with Benito Mussolini, the Duce (Leader) of Fascist
Italy. Mussolini agrees to a joint Axis statement along the lines of
al-Husayni's proposal to Hitler.

November 28, 1941
Adolf Hitler receives al-Husayni in Berlin, a meeting covered by the
German press. The Führer declines to issue any public declaration or
conclude an agreement with al-Husayni regarding his January 1941
requests.

Early 1942
In collaboration with the Axis powers, al-Husayni begins developing
themes for radio and print propaganda directed primarily at the Arab
and Muslim world.

July 1942
Al-Husayni proposes a pan-Arab center in newly occupied Egypt to
produce and disseminate propaganda, to carry out sabotage operations
and incite rebellions behind British lines, and to train Arab regulars
as the core of a liberating Arab army under al-Husayni's control. The
Germans and the Italians reject this concept.

Late September 1942
Al-Husayni again proposes a pan-Arab center, this time in Tunis, to
direct propaganda in Tunisia, Algeria, and Morocco. The Axis powers
reject the plan.

November 8, 1942
In Operation Torch, Anglo-American troops land at Casablanca in
Morocco and at Oran and Algiers in Algeria. Vichy French forces
surrender.

December 18, 1942
At the opening of the Central Islamic Institute in Berlin, Al-Husayni
denounces the Jews as the bitterest enemies of Islam. He accuses the
Jews of provoking nations against each other and unleashing World War
II. He calls on Muslims to liberate themselves from enemy persecution.
Nazi propagandists provide major coverage of the opening and of
al-Husayni's remarks. His speech is broadcast from Germany to the
Middle East on December 23, 1942.

February 13, 1943
Hitler agrees to create the 13th Waffen-SS Mountain Division, later
also known as "Handschar." Reichsführer-SS (SS chief) Heinrich Himmler
authorizes recruitment of Bosnian Muslims for the division.

 In March
and April, the SS Main Office sends al-Husayni to assist in
recruitment efforts.

May 13, 1943
German and Italian forces surrender near Tunis, ending the war in North Africa.

May-June 1943
Al-Husayni writes to the Bulgarian, German, Italian, Hungarian, and
Romanian governments, demanding they not participate in British
efforts to transfer Jewish children from Hungary, Romania, and
Bulgaria to Palestine. He suggests the children be sent to Poland. The
Germans had already taken steps to halt the transports in March and
April of 1943.

July 1943
The SS establish an Imam training school to prepare chaplains for the
13th Waffen-SS Mountain Division. Al-Husayni tells the trainees that
Muslims would "never have a better or more loyal ally than the Greater
German Reich."

February 1944
The Germans deploy the 13th Waffen-SS Mountain Division, now also
known as the "Handschar" Division, in western Croatia and northeastern
Bosnia.

June 6, 1944
Allied forces land on the Normandy coast of France (D-Day).

September-October 1944
Nearly 3,000 soldiers of the 13th Waffen-SS Mountain Division desert.
Most of the rest mutiny in mid-October, refusing to transfer to
Hungary to fight Soviet troops. Himmler dissolves the division.

November 2, 1944
At al-Husayni's suggestion, the German Foreign Office announces the
formation of an Arab-Muslim army (to be composed of Arab and Muslim
volunteers and Muslim and Arab soldiers serving in Axis forces) to
counter the Jewish Brigade Group in the British army.

May 7, 1945
Al-Husayni flees by plane to Bern, Switzerland. Swiss authorities deny
him asylum and turn him over to French authorities.

May 8, 1945
V-E Day, end of World War II in Europe.

May 29, 1946
Al-Husayni escapes house arrest near Paris and flies to Cairo, Egypt.*

Hajj Amin al-Husayni: Timeline


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## sealadaigh

tinydancer said:


> reabhloideach said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> tinydancer said:
> 
> 
> 
> The problem is that you are debating a straw man here. I'm very specific with words.
> 
> The issue is Islam's direct historical ties to Hitler and the Nazis. Not that all Muslims world wide supported the Nazis.
> 
> That would be as foolish as trying to say all Catholics world wide supported the Nazis just because there was one homicidal pod of Franciscan Monks who ran a death camp.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> fine, i already conceded that some muslims had a connection with hitler, just as some jews (160,000 jewish soldiers in hitlers army (bryan rigg) and some catholics as well. i am not claiming judaism's direct historical ties to hitler or christianity's direct ties to hitler.
> 
> you oughta read your wiki source carefully, by the way. wiki is a good source, if you don't cherry pick.
> 
> you have successfully shown one muslim's connection with hitler. haj amin al-husseini does not represent islam any more than charles lindberg represents christianity.
> 
> try again.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> There was far more than one Arab who was exiled who collaborated with the Nazis. I shall continue.
> 
> This is not just a matter of numbers of individuals involved.  It was the actions taken by these collaborators who attempted in collusion with the Nazi propaganda machine to poison the minds, hearts and souls of the Arab world with their hateful rhetoric.
> 
> I* do not take this issue lightly. For their legacy lives on today, and we all still pay a price one way or another for the generational damaged caused by them*.
Click to expand...


opinions are not facts. exactly what legacy lives on today? you gave me a timeline of al-husseini's activities from about 1940 on. he was fighting for arab nationalism and against european colonialism. i think that is a legacy that lives on...and it is not a legacy of islam. it is a legacy of a people who have fought for their independence, primarily against the british, long beore hitler came along.

you mentioned haj amin al-husseini and that is one muslim. that was to whom i was responding in YOUR post.

shall we discuss france's historical ties to hitler or shall we think of degaulle and the free french forces helping to liberate paris.

there is no historical connection between islam and the NAZIs and you cannot seem to understand that. islam is a non centralised religion not unlie judaism organisationally. neither religion has a central authority.


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## sealadaigh

tinydancer said:


> Now to your phrase "one Muslim".
> 
> Not only was he appointed Grand Mufti of Jerusalem (this came with a life tenure) but he also was elected President of the Supreme Muslim Council.
> 
> Look what he controlled. He wielded great power.
> 
> *The Council controlled the Waqf funds, worth annually tens of thousands of pounds and the orphan funds, worth annually about £50,000, as compared to the £600,000 in the Jewish Agency's annual budget.
> 
> In addition, he controlled the Islamic courts in Palestine. Among other functions, these courts were entrusted with the power to appoint teachers and preachers.*
> 
> Haj Amin al-Husseini - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> The Grand Mufti was considered so powerful that he declared a fatwa on Britain. And when he ran from Iraq he was so revered the Italians brought him to Italy.
> 
> Read this carefully. He's granted audiences with Mussolini. Hitler. Himmler was a fan.
> Not "just one Muslim".
> 
> *
> January 1941
> Al-Husayni asks Hitler for a statement recognizing: 1) the
> independence of the Arab states from British and French colonial rule;
> 2) the right of the independent Arab states to form a union; and 3)
> the right of the independent Arab authorities in Palestine to
> eliminate the proposed Jewish homeland there.
> 
> April 1, 1941
> Al-Husayni participates in a pro-Axis coup in Iraq. The new
> government, under Rashid 'Ali al-Kailani, deploys al-Husayni as the
> key contact to the Axis powers.
> 
> May 1941
> Germany begins to supply al-Husayni, now in Baghdad, with payments to
> foment an uprising in Palestine.
> 
> May 9, 1941
> Al-Husayni issues a fatwa in a radio speech from Baghdad, calling
> Muslims to engage in a holy war against Great Britain.
> 
> May 29, 1941
> As British troops approach Baghdad, al-Husayni flees across the border to Iran.
> 
> June 1-2, 1941
> As pro-British Iraqi troops enter Baghdad, Iraqi civilians perpetrate
> a pogrom, known as the Farhud, on the Jewish citizens of Baghdad.
> After 128 Jews are killed and 210 injured, British troops restore
> order.
> 
> July 1941
> The German Abwehr establishes a German-Arab Training Department at a
> base near Athens, Greece, to train Arab volunteers for service as
> auxiliaries in the German Wehrmacht.
> 
> August 1941
> Great Britain and the Soviet Union occupy Iran.
> 
> October 1941
> Italian diplomats smuggle al-Husayni out of Iran to Italy.
> 
> October 27, 1941
> Al-Husayni meets with Benito Mussolini, the Duce (Leader) of Fascist
> Italy. Mussolini agrees to a joint Axis statement along the lines of
> al-Husayni's proposal to Hitler.
> 
> November 28, 1941
> Adolf Hitler receives al-Husayni in Berlin, a meeting covered by the
> German press. The Führer declines to issue any public declaration or
> conclude an agreement with al-Husayni regarding his January 1941
> requests.
> 
> Early 1942
> In collaboration with the Axis powers, al-Husayni begins developing
> themes for radio and print propaganda directed primarily at the Arab
> and Muslim world.
> 
> July 1942
> Al-Husayni proposes a pan-Arab center in newly occupied Egypt to
> produce and disseminate propaganda, to carry out sabotage operations
> and incite rebellions behind British lines, and to train Arab regulars
> as the core of a liberating Arab army under al-Husayni's control. The
> Germans and the Italians reject this concept.
> 
> Late September 1942
> Al-Husayni again proposes a pan-Arab center, this time in Tunis, to
> direct propaganda in Tunisia, Algeria, and Morocco. The Axis powers
> reject the plan.
> 
> November 8, 1942
> In Operation Torch, Anglo-American troops land at Casablanca in
> Morocco and at Oran and Algiers in Algeria. Vichy French forces
> surrender.
> 
> December 18, 1942
> At the opening of the Central Islamic Institute in Berlin, Al-Husayni
> denounces the Jews as the bitterest enemies of Islam. He accuses the
> Jews of provoking nations against each other and unleashing World War
> II. He calls on Muslims to liberate themselves from enemy persecution.
> Nazi propagandists provide major coverage of the opening and of
> al-Husayni's remarks. His speech is broadcast from Germany to the
> Middle East on December 23, 1942.
> 
> February 13, 1943
> Hitler agrees to create the 13th Waffen-SS Mountain Division, later
> also known as "Handschar." Reichsführer-SS (SS chief) Heinrich Himmler
> authorizes recruitment of Bosnian Muslims for the division.
> 
> In March
> and April, the SS Main Office sends al-Husayni to assist in
> recruitment efforts.
> 
> May 13, 1943
> German and Italian forces surrender near Tunis, ending the war in North Africa.
> 
> May-June 1943
> Al-Husayni writes to the Bulgarian, German, Italian, Hungarian, and
> Romanian governments, demanding they not participate in British
> efforts to transfer Jewish children from Hungary, Romania, and
> Bulgaria to Palestine. He suggests the children be sent to Poland. The
> Germans had already taken steps to halt the transports in March and
> April of 1943.
> 
> July 1943
> The SS establish an Imam training school to prepare chaplains for the
> 13th Waffen-SS Mountain Division. Al-Husayni tells the trainees that
> Muslims would "never have a better or more loyal ally than the Greater
> German Reich."
> 
> February 1944
> The Germans deploy the 13th Waffen-SS Mountain Division, now also
> known as the "Handschar" Division, in western Croatia and northeastern
> Bosnia.
> 
> June 6, 1944
> Allied forces land on the Normandy coast of France (D-Day).
> 
> September-October 1944
> Nearly 3,000 soldiers of the 13th Waffen-SS Mountain Division desert.
> Most of the rest mutiny in mid-October, refusing to transfer to
> Hungary to fight Soviet troops. Himmler dissolves the division.
> 
> November 2, 1944
> At al-Husayni's suggestion, the German Foreign Office announces the
> formation of an Arab-Muslim army (to be composed of Arab and Muslim
> volunteers and Muslim and Arab soldiers serving in Axis forces) to
> counter the Jewish Brigade Group in the British army.
> 
> May 7, 1945
> Al-Husayni flees by plane to Bern, Switzerland. Swiss authorities deny
> him asylum and turn him over to French authorities.
> 
> May 8, 1945
> V-E Day, end of World War II in Europe.
> 
> May 29, 1946
> Al-Husayni escapes house arrest near Paris and flies to Cairo, Egypt.*
> 
> Hajj Amin al-Husayni: Timeline



SO WHAT? 

he does not represeent islam. why is that so hard for you to understand.

i concede all these points except the one...islaam has no single representative who speaks for them.


----------



## tinydancer

Now don't just take my word on how respected he was by the Germans. 

Film footage at this link.

Historical Film Footage

* Transcript:

The Führer meets the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, one of the most
influential men of Arab nationalism.

 The Grand Mufti is the religious leader of the Arabs in Palestine and simultaneously their highest judge and financial manager.

 Because of his nationalism, the British have persecuted him bitterly and put a price of 25,000 pounds on his head. His adventurous voyage brought him over Italy to Germany.*


----------



## sealadaigh

do CHRISTIANS belive in papal infallibility...yes or no?


----------



## tinydancer

reabhloideach said:


> tinydancer said:
> 
> 
> 
> Now to your phrase "one Muslim".
> 
> Not only was he appointed Grand Mufti of Jerusalem (this came with a life tenure) but he also was elected President of the Supreme Muslim Council.
> 
> Look what he controlled. He wielded great power.
> 
> *The Council controlled the Waqf funds, worth annually tens of thousands of pounds and the orphan funds, worth annually about £50,000, as compared to the £600,000 in the Jewish Agency's annual budget.
> 
> In addition, he controlled the Islamic courts in Palestine. Among other functions, these courts were entrusted with the power to appoint teachers and preachers.*
> 
> Haj Amin al-Husseini - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> The Grand Mufti was considered so powerful that he declared a fatwa on Britain. And when he ran from Iraq he was so revered the Italians brought him to Italy.
> 
> Read this carefully. He's granted audiences with Mussolini. Hitler. Himmler was a fan.
> Not "just one Muslim".
> 
> *
> January 1941
> Al-Husayni asks Hitler for a statement recognizing: 1) the
> independence of the Arab states from British and French colonial rule;
> 2) the right of the independent Arab states to form a union; and 3)
> the right of the independent Arab authorities in Palestine to
> eliminate the proposed Jewish homeland there.
> 
> April 1, 1941
> Al-Husayni participates in a pro-Axis coup in Iraq. The new
> government, under Rashid 'Ali al-Kailani, deploys al-Husayni as the
> key contact to the Axis powers.
> 
> May 1941
> Germany begins to supply al-Husayni, now in Baghdad, with payments to
> foment an uprising in Palestine.
> 
> May 9, 1941
> Al-Husayni issues a fatwa in a radio speech from Baghdad, calling
> Muslims to engage in a holy war against Great Britain.
> 
> May 29, 1941
> As British troops approach Baghdad, al-Husayni flees across the border to Iran.
> 
> June 1-2, 1941
> As pro-British Iraqi troops enter Baghdad, Iraqi civilians perpetrate
> a pogrom, known as the Farhud, on the Jewish citizens of Baghdad.
> After 128 Jews are killed and 210 injured, British troops restore
> order.
> 
> July 1941
> The German Abwehr establishes a German-Arab Training Department at a
> base near Athens, Greece, to train Arab volunteers for service as
> auxiliaries in the German Wehrmacht.
> 
> August 1941
> Great Britain and the Soviet Union occupy Iran.
> 
> October 1941
> Italian diplomats smuggle al-Husayni out of Iran to Italy.
> 
> October 27, 1941
> Al-Husayni meets with Benito Mussolini, the Duce (Leader) of Fascist
> Italy. Mussolini agrees to a joint Axis statement along the lines of
> al-Husayni's proposal to Hitler.
> 
> November 28, 1941
> Adolf Hitler receives al-Husayni in Berlin, a meeting covered by the
> German press. The Führer declines to issue any public declaration or
> conclude an agreement with al-Husayni regarding his January 1941
> requests.
> 
> Early 1942
> In collaboration with the Axis powers, al-Husayni begins developing
> themes for radio and print propaganda directed primarily at the Arab
> and Muslim world.
> 
> July 1942
> Al-Husayni proposes a pan-Arab center in newly occupied Egypt to
> produce and disseminate propaganda, to carry out sabotage operations
> and incite rebellions behind British lines, and to train Arab regulars
> as the core of a liberating Arab army under al-Husayni's control. The
> Germans and the Italians reject this concept.
> 
> Late September 1942
> Al-Husayni again proposes a pan-Arab center, this time in Tunis, to
> direct propaganda in Tunisia, Algeria, and Morocco. The Axis powers
> reject the plan.
> 
> November 8, 1942
> In Operation Torch, Anglo-American troops land at Casablanca in
> Morocco and at Oran and Algiers in Algeria. Vichy French forces
> surrender.
> 
> December 18, 1942
> At the opening of the Central Islamic Institute in Berlin, Al-Husayni
> denounces the Jews as the bitterest enemies of Islam. He accuses the
> Jews of provoking nations against each other and unleashing World War
> II. He calls on Muslims to liberate themselves from enemy persecution.
> Nazi propagandists provide major coverage of the opening and of
> al-Husayni's remarks. His speech is broadcast from Germany to the
> Middle East on December 23, 1942.
> 
> February 13, 1943
> Hitler agrees to create the 13th Waffen-SS Mountain Division, later
> also known as "Handschar." Reichsführer-SS (SS chief) Heinrich Himmler
> authorizes recruitment of Bosnian Muslims for the division.
> 
> In March
> and April, the SS Main Office sends al-Husayni to assist in
> recruitment efforts.
> 
> May 13, 1943
> German and Italian forces surrender near Tunis, ending the war in North Africa.
> 
> May-June 1943
> Al-Husayni writes to the Bulgarian, German, Italian, Hungarian, and
> Romanian governments, demanding they not participate in British
> efforts to transfer Jewish children from Hungary, Romania, and
> Bulgaria to Palestine. He suggests the children be sent to Poland. The
> Germans had already taken steps to halt the transports in March and
> April of 1943.
> 
> July 1943
> The SS establish an Imam training school to prepare chaplains for the
> 13th Waffen-SS Mountain Division. Al-Husayni tells the trainees that
> Muslims would "never have a better or more loyal ally than the Greater
> German Reich."
> 
> February 1944
> The Germans deploy the 13th Waffen-SS Mountain Division, now also
> known as the "Handschar" Division, in western Croatia and northeastern
> Bosnia.
> 
> June 6, 1944
> Allied forces land on the Normandy coast of France (D-Day).
> 
> September-October 1944
> Nearly 3,000 soldiers of the 13th Waffen-SS Mountain Division desert.
> Most of the rest mutiny in mid-October, refusing to transfer to
> Hungary to fight Soviet troops. Himmler dissolves the division.
> 
> November 2, 1944
> At al-Husayni's suggestion, the German Foreign Office announces the
> formation of an Arab-Muslim army (to be composed of Arab and Muslim
> volunteers and Muslim and Arab soldiers serving in Axis forces) to
> counter the Jewish Brigade Group in the British army.
> 
> May 7, 1945
> Al-Husayni flees by plane to Bern, Switzerland. Swiss authorities deny
> him asylum and turn him over to French authorities.
> 
> May 8, 1945
> V-E Day, end of World War II in Europe.
> 
> May 29, 1946
> Al-Husayni escapes house arrest near Paris and flies to Cairo, Egypt.*
> 
> Hajj Amin al-Husayni: Timeline
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SO WHAT?
> 
> he does not represeent islam. why is that so hard for you to understand.
> 
> i concede all these points except the one...islaam has no single representative who speaks for them.
Click to expand...


I've never said that there was a single representative.

But I'm laying the groundwork to show how Islam was used by the Nazis and by the Grand Mufti and other Arab exiles in their massive propaganda machine. 

And to make certain that you are fully aware of the power Husseini wielded. 

One doesn't get to "hang" with the likes of Mussolini, Hitler and Himmler and not be a major player.


----------



## sealadaigh

tinydancer said:


> Now don't just take my word on how respected he was by the Germans.
> 
> Film footage at this link.
> 
> Historical Film Footage
> 
> * Transcript:
> 
> The Führer meets the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, one of the most
> influential men of Arab nationalism.
> 
> The Grand Mufti is the religious leader of the Arabs in Palestine and simultaneously their highest judge and financial manager.
> 
> Because of his nationalism, the British have persecuted him bitterly and put a price of 25,000 pounds on his head. His adventurous voyage brought him over Italy to Germany.*



the muslim world at the time was between 300,000,000 and 500,000,000 people. the palestinian arabs at the time numbered 1,000,000.

i am on a slow modem. i cannot download vids very well.

speaking of the british, i won't insult you by discussing britains historic connection to the NAZIs based upon lord haw haw's pro-nazi broadcasts.

Lord Haw-Haw - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


----------



## tinydancer

reabhloideach said:


> tinydancer said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> reabhloideach said:
> 
> 
> 
> fine, i already conceded that some muslims had a connection with hitler, just as some jews (160,000 jewish soldiers in hitlers army (bryan rigg) and some catholics as well. i am not claiming judaism's direct historical ties to hitler or christianity's direct ties to hitler.
> 
> you oughta read your wiki source carefully, by the way. wiki is a good source, if you don't cherry pick.
> 
> you have successfully shown one muslim's connection with hitler. haj amin al-husseini does not represent islam any more than charles lindberg represents christianity.
> 
> try again.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There was far more than one Arab who was exiled who collaborated with the Nazis. I shall continue.
> 
> This is not just a matter of numbers of individuals involved.  It was the actions taken by these collaborators who attempted in collusion with the Nazi propaganda machine to poison the minds, hearts and souls of the Arab world with their hateful rhetoric.
> 
> I* do not take this issue lightly. For their legacy lives on today, and we all still pay a price one way or another for the generational damaged caused by them*.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> opinions are not facts. exactly what legacy lives on today? you gave me a timeline of al-husseini's activities from about 1940 on. he was fighting for arab nationalism and against european colonialism. i think that is a legacy that lives on...and it is not a legacy of islam. it is a legacy of a people who have fought for their independence, primarily against the british, long beore hitler came along.
> 
> you mentioned haj amin al-husseini and that is one muslim. that was to whom i was responding in YOUR post.
> 
> shall we discuss france's historical ties to hitler or shall we think of degaulle and the free french forces helping to liberate paris.
> 
> there is no historical connection between islam and the NAZIs and you cannot seem to understand that. islam is a non centralised religion not unlie judaism organisationally. neither religion has a central authority.
Click to expand...


With all due respect, you are missing the point I am making.

 The Grand Mufti and other exiles and the Nazi propaganda machine collaborated on a major propaganda effort using selective portions of the Koran and Islamic traditions to poison the Arab world against Jews and against the west.

I have to address this. I gave you early on in the thread his activities before 1940. He was appointed Grand Mufti by the First High Commissioner to Palestine strangely enough by a British Jew.

His greatest talent was not as a freedom fighter, but whipping others into a frenzy. A demagogue if you will. He ran in the middle of the Arab Revolt. 1937. He always let others do the fighting.


----------



## sealadaigh

tinydancer said:


> reabhloideach said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> tinydancer said:
> 
> 
> 
> There was far more than one Arab who was exiled who collaborated with the Nazis. I shall continue.
> 
> This is not just a matter of numbers of individuals involved.  It was the actions taken by these collaborators who attempted in collusion with the Nazi propaganda machine to poison the minds, hearts and souls of the Arab world with their hateful rhetoric.
> 
> I* do not take this issue lightly. For their legacy lives on today, and we all still pay a price one way or another for the generational damaged caused by them*.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> opinions are not facts. exactly what legacy lives on today? you gave me a timeline of al-husseini's activities from about 1940 on. he was fighting for arab nationalism and against european colonialism. i think that is a legacy that lives on...and it is not a legacy of islam. it is a legacy of a people who have fought for their independence, primarily against the british, long beore hitler came along.
> 
> you mentioned haj amin al-husseini and that is one muslim. that was to whom i was responding in YOUR post.
> 
> shall we discuss france's historical ties to hitler or shall we think of degaulle and the free french forces helping to liberate paris.
> 
> there is no historical connection between islam and the NAZIs and you cannot seem to understand that. islam is a non centralised religion not unlie judaism organisationally. neither religion has a central authority.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> With all due respect, you are missing the point I am making.
> 
> * The Grand Mufti and other exiles and the Nazi propaganda machine collaborated on a major propaganda effort using selective portions of the Koran and Islamic traditions to poison the Arab world against Jews and against the west.*
> I have to address this. I gave you early on in the thread his activities before 1940. He was appointed Grand Mufti by the First High Commissioner to Palestine strangely enough by a British Jew.
> 
> His greatest talent was not as a freedom fighter, but whipping others into a frenzy. A demagogue if you will. He ran in the middle of the Arab Revolt. 1937. He always let others do the fighting.
Click to expand...


so what. it didn't work. he raised an army of what, 10,000 troops in bosnia, maybe. tell, me, how many troops did he raise in senegal?  mali,  turkey. he did not represent islam.

right now, we have a rabbi on the west bank, a very well respected talmudic(interpretation.of jewish law) scholar, preaching that it is alright to kill arab children...it is a mitzvah.

so ok...if islam has a historic connection with the NAZIs, then judaism has a historic connection with the infanticide of gentile babies?

all we are doing now is going in circles by the way. is their any reason to prpolong this? you have not proved that islam has a historic connection with the NAZIs. you have proved that small, isolated factions of islam, or muslim individuals used the NAZIs to further their own ends of nationalism.

or pwrhaps you actually think that hitler, in his desire for a genetically pure german race, actually thought muslim peoples, some as black as the ace of spades, would fit in nicely with the genetic purity he was trying to achieve.


----------



## tinydancer

Now you have to understand that the Mufti himself was using the "best interests of Islam" as part of his collaboration with the Nazis.

One of the best examples of this was when he began his recruitment of Muslim soldiers for the SS.   Lets take the 13th Waffen Mountain division of the SS.

Check this out. 

* Mufti of Jerusalem

In April 1943, the Mufti of Jerusalem, Mohammad Amin al-Husayni, was invited by Berger to assist in organising and recruiting Muslims into the Waffen-SS and other units.

 He was escorted by von Krempler, who also spoke fluent Turkish. The Mufti successfully convinced the Muslims to ignore the declarations of the Sarajevo, Mostar and Banja Luka Ulama (Islamic clerics), who in 1941 forbade them from collaborating with the Ustae.

The Germans emphasised that al-Husayni had flown from Berlin to Sarajevo in order to bless and inspect the division.

 During his visit to Bosnia al-Husayni also convinced some important Muslim leaders that the formation of the division was in the interests of Islam.*

You see that was the Mufti's tactic. He was using Islam.

And hopefully at this point you can see now, the Mufti's involvement with Hitler and Himmler was not just a one time visit with Hitler. This was not a one night stand. 

13th Waffen Mountain Division of the SS Handschar (1st Croatian) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

These images were provided by the German government to wiki. 






Depicted people 	

    Husseini, Amin al Hadj: Großmufti von Jerusalem, Vorsitzender des Obersten Islamischen Rates, (PND 11883679X)
    Sauberzweig, Karl-Gustav: 1899-1946; SS-Brigadeführer, Deutschland

Troops in prayer.











The Grand Mufti treated to a sniper demonstration






Guess who?  In a group picture.






Just look at that extended right arm....






 From Hitler's Legacy / Modern Islamo-fascism and its Nazi Origins


----------



## tinydancer

reabhloideach said:


> tinydancer said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> reabhloideach said:
> 
> 
> 
> opinions are not facts. exactly what legacy lives on today? you gave me a timeline of al-husseini's activities from about 1940 on. he was fighting for arab nationalism and against european colonialism. i think that is a legacy that lives on...and it is not a legacy of islam. it is a legacy of a people who have fought for their independence, primarily against the british, long beore hitler came along.
> 
> you mentioned haj amin al-husseini and that is one muslim. that was to whom i was responding in YOUR post.
> 
> shall we discuss france's historical ties to hitler or shall we think of degaulle and the free french forces helping to liberate paris.
> 
> there is no historical connection between islam and the NAZIs and you cannot seem to understand that. islam is a non centralised religion not unlie judaism organisationally. neither religion has a central authority.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> With all due respect, you are missing the point I am making.
> 
> * The Grand Mufti and other exiles and the Nazi propaganda machine collaborated on a major propaganda effort using selective portions of the Koran and Islamic traditions to poison the Arab world against Jews and against the west.*
> I have to address this. I gave you early on in the thread his activities before 1940. He was appointed Grand Mufti by the First High Commissioner to Palestine strangely enough by a British Jew.
> 
> His greatest talent was not as a freedom fighter, but whipping others into a frenzy. A demagogue if you will. He ran in the middle of the Arab Revolt. 1937. He always let others do the fighting.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> so what. it didn't work. he raised an army of what, 10,000 troops in bosnia, maybe. tell, me, how many troops did he raise in senegal?  mali,  turkey. he did not represent islam.
> 
> right now, we have a rabbi on the west bank, a very well respected talmudic(interpretation.of jewish law) scholar, preaching that it is alright to kill arab children...it is a mitzvah.
> 
> so ok...if islam has a historic connection with the NAZIs, then judaism has a historic connection with the infanticide of gentile babies?
> 
> all we are doing now is going in circles by the way. is their any reason to prpolong this? you have not proved that islam has a historic connection with the NAZIs. you have proved that small, isolated factions of islam, or muslim individuals used the NAZIs to further their own ends of nationalism.
> 
> or pwrhaps you actually think that hitler, in his desire for a genetically pure german race, actually thought muslim peoples, some as black as the ace of spades, would fit in nicely with the genetic purity he was trying to achieve.
Click to expand...


He was using Islam. I'm proving that with quotes. By his actions. I've not even gotten into the radio broadcasts yet. 

The Grand Mufti and others were using Islam working in collaboration with the Nazis. It is history.


----------



## tinydancer

> so what. it didn't work. he raised an army of what, 10,000 troops in bosnia, maybe. tell, me, how many troops did he raise in senegal? mali, turkey. he did not represent islam.



It doesn't matter to this debate if it didn't work out as fabulously as they had hoped. The issue is the use of Islam in recruitment and propaganda.

You say you don't believe he represented Islam. But it doesn't matter what you think or I think. I'm not saying that in a mean way, but it's the truth. We don't count. 

 The Nazis believed he represented Islam. Mussolini believed he represented Islam. 

And just as importantly, al Banna believed he represented Islam.


----------



## tinydancer

Now if you'd like to take a break for the evening let me know. 

I have so much more evidence to put out there on how Islam was used and abused by the Nazis and the exiles in their massive propaganda campaign aimed at the Arab world. 

 I can start putting up that data early tomorrow afternoon.


----------



## sealadaigh

tinydancer said:


> reabhloideach said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> tinydancer said:
> 
> 
> 
> With all due respect, you are missing the point I am making.
> 
> * The Grand Mufti and other exiles and the Nazi propaganda machine collaborated on a major propaganda effort using selective portions of the Koran and Islamic traditions to poison the Arab world against Jews and against the west.*
> I have to address this. I gave you early on in the thread his activities before 1940. He was appointed Grand Mufti by the First High Commissioner to Palestine strangely enough by a British Jew.
> 
> His greatest talent was not as a freedom fighter, but whipping others into a frenzy. A demagogue if you will. He ran in the middle of the Arab Revolt. 1937. He always let others do the fighting.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> so what. it didn't work. he raised an army of what, 10,000 troops in bosnia, maybe. tell, me, how many troops did he raise in senegal?  mali,  turkey. he did not represent islam.
> 
> right now, we have a rabbi on the west bank, a very well respected talmudic(interpretation.of jewish law) scholar, preaching that it is alright to kill arab children...it is a mitzvah.
> 
> so ok...if islam has a historic connection with the NAZIs, then judaism has a historic connection with the infanticide of gentile babies?
> 
> all we are doing now is going in circles by the way. is their any reason to prpolong this? you have not proved that islam has a historic connection with the NAZIs. you have proved that small, isolated factions of islam, or muslim individuals used the NAZIs to further their own ends of nationalism.
> 
> or pwrhaps you actually think that hitler, in his desire for a genetically pure german race, actually thought muslim peoples, some as black as the ace of spades, would fit in nicely with the genetic purity he was trying to achieve.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> He was using Islam. I'm proving that with quotes. By his actions. I've not even gotten into the radio broadcasts yet.
> 
> The Grand Mufti and others were using Islam working in collaboration with the Nazis. It is history.
Click to expand...


and the KKK uses christianity.

look, give me numbers. how many muslims served in hitler's armies. when you get to 150,000, the number of jews serving in hitler's armies. then i will start talking to you about proportions and percentages.

also, you have not responded to anything i put out...the west bank rabbi, the vichy french, the british lord haw-haw. i only use them as analogous examples to your "grand mufti" example. he was one man. he represented 1,000,000 palestinians, a pittance of the muslim world.

so, give me some numbers here. get me 5,000,000 muslims in hitlers armies and we can talk. hey. i feel generous; get me 2,000,000. that is out of a worldwide population of about 500,000,000 muslims worlwide. that would make me consider your assertion that islam had a historic connection with the NAZIs.

but until then...no central authority, so numbers will be your only proof.


----------



## sealadaigh

tinydancer said:


> Now if you'd like to take a break for the evening let me know.
> 
> I have so much more evidence to put out there on how Islam was used and abused by the Nazis and the exiles in their massive propaganda campaign aimed at the Arab world.
> 
> I can start putting up that data early tomorrow afternoon.



don't waste your time. the fact that the NAZIs used islam has nothing to do with anything. seriously, stop wasting our time. i want numbers.


----------



## sealadaigh

tinydancer said:


> Now if you'd like to take a break for the evening let me know.
> 
> I have so much more evidence to put out there on how Islam was used and abused by the Nazis and the exiles in their massive propaganda campaign aimed at the Arab world.
> 
> I can start putting up that data early tomorrow afternoon.



also, the fact that the NAZIs used the islamic faith for whateer purposes does not in anyway prove islams historic connection to the NAZIs. it shows that the NAZIs tried to use the islamic faith to their own ends.


----------



## tinydancer

reabhloideach said:


> tinydancer said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> reabhloideach said:
> 
> 
> 
> so what. it didn't work. he raised an army of what, 10,000 troops in bosnia, maybe. tell, me, how many troops did he raise in senegal?  mali,  turkey. he did not represent islam.
> 
> right now, we have a rabbi on the west bank, a very well respected talmudic(interpretation.of jewish law) scholar, preaching that it is alright to kill arab children...it is a mitzvah.
> 
> so ok...if islam has a historic connection with the NAZIs, then judaism has a historic connection with the infanticide of gentile babies?
> 
> all we are doing now is going in circles by the way. is their any reason to prpolong this? you have not proved that islam has a historic connection with the NAZIs. you have proved that small, isolated factions of islam, or muslim individuals used the NAZIs to further their own ends of nationalism.
> 
> or pwrhaps you actually think that hitler, in his desire for a genetically pure german race, actually thought muslim peoples, some as black as the ace of spades, would fit in nicely with the genetic purity he was trying to achieve.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> He was using Islam. I'm proving that with quotes. By his actions. I've not even gotten into the radio broadcasts yet.
> 
> The Grand Mufti and others were using Islam working in collaboration with the Nazis. It is history.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> and the KKK uses christianity.
> 
> look, give me numbers. how many muslims served in hitler's armies. when you get to 150,000, the number of jews serving in hitler's armies. then i will start talking to you about proportions and percentages.
> 
> also, you have not responded to anything i put out...the west bank rabbi, the vichy french, the british lord haw-haw. i only use them as analogous examples to your "grand mufti" example. he was one man. he represented 1,000,000 palestinians, a pittance of the muslim world.
> 
> so, give me some numbers here. get me 5,000,000 muslims in hitlers armies and we can talk. hey. i feel generous; get me 2,000,000. that is out of a worldwide population of about 500,000,000 muslims worlwide. that would make me consider your assertion that islam had a historic connection with the NAZIs.
> 
> but until then...no central authority, so numbers will be your only proof.
Click to expand...


You've given me the stories. You've given me no links.


----------



## tinydancer

reabhloideach said:


> tinydancer said:
> 
> 
> 
> Now if you'd like to take a break for the evening let me know.
> 
> I have so much more evidence to put out there on how Islam was used and abused by the Nazis and the exiles in their massive propaganda campaign aimed at the Arab world.
> 
> I can start putting up that data early tomorrow afternoon.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> also, the fact that the NAZIs used the islamic faith for whateer purposes does not in anyway prove islams historic connection to the NAZIs. it shows that the NAZIs tried to use the islamic faith to their own ends.
Click to expand...


Aye carumba!

Islam was used. Therefore there is a historic connection. And I will be putting out data with links to the propaganda.

What next, Mussolini didn't win so it's not part of history?

 Japan lost so it's not part of history? 

The Nazis lost so it's not part of history?

Just because the use of Islam was not as successful as everybody hoped does not mean that it's not part of the historic account of the Nazi - Arab propaganda machine. 

Good grief.


----------



## tinydancer

reabhloideach said:


> tinydancer said:
> 
> 
> 
> Now if you'd like to take a break for the evening let me know.
> 
> I have so much more evidence to put out there on how Islam was used and abused by the Nazis and the exiles in their massive propaganda campaign aimed at the Arab world.
> 
> I can start putting up that data early tomorrow afternoon.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> don't waste your time. the fact that the NAZIs used islam has nothing to do with anything. seriously, stop wasting our time. i want numbers.
Click to expand...


All you have done is offered bizarre analogies, opinions, and comments on issues that have nothing to do the debate. 

On the other hand I am offering evidence that everyone involved in the upper echelons of the Axis believed that the Islamic connection would assist in the war effort.

Just because the effort was not successful does not mean that it didn't happen. That's not how one judges history.


----------



## tinydancer

Looking forward to meeting you in here again tomorrow. I'm going to go have some fun in music now. 

yours,
td


----------



## sealadaigh

tinydancer said:


> reabhloideach said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> tinydancer said:
> 
> 
> 
> He was using Islam. I'm proving that with quotes. By his actions. I've not even gotten into the radio broadcasts yet.
> 
> The Grand Mufti and others were using Islam working in collaboration with the Nazis. It is history.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> and the KKK uses christianity.
> 
> look, give me numbers. how many muslims served in hitler's armies. when you get to 150,000, the number of jews serving in hitler's armies. then i will start talking to you about proportions and percentages.
> 
> also, you have not responded to anything i put out...the west bank rabbi, the vichy french, the british lord haw-haw. i only use them as analogous examples to your "grand mufti" example. he was one man. he represented 1,000,000 palestinians, a pittance of the muslim world.
> 
> so, give me some numbers here. get me 5,000,000 muslims in hitlers armies and we can talk. hey. i feel generous; get me 2,000,000. that is out of a worldwide population of about 500,000,000 muslims worlwide. that would make me consider your assertion that islam had a historic connection with the NAZIs.
> 
> but until then...no central authority, so numbers will be your only proof.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You've given me the stories. You've given me no links.
Click to expand...


Palestine's Population During The Ottoman And The British Mandate Periods, 559

MidEast Web - Population of Palestine

Hitler's Jewish Soldiers

Muslim Population Statistics

http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.180.3753&rep=rep1&type=pdf

i hope you have an adding machine and graph paper for the world muslim population because ithey nwere not keen on demographics at the time. i got a low of 300,000,000 and a high of about 550,000,000 ...

or you can just do it the easy way, with a world population of 7 billion today and 2.3 billion in 1940 and do the rough but much easier math of 1.5 billion muslims today which, reduced correspondingly, would equal about 500,000,000 in 1940.

or, if you have better data, i will take it but reaally, 300,000,000 and 500,000,000 are pretty acceptable figures for between 1940 and 1972.

oh p,s, just so ya don't think i am a total weirdo, i needed that info once and wrote it down and extrapolated stuff. i used to be a fire direction computer in a division level artillery unit (9th divarty) and it ain't that easy to put a round on target five miles away, what with the world turning and the air getting thicker and 5 slide rules that ya had to mark adjustments on and stuff like time on targets and airbursts and do it all in 2 minutes or less.

i will try to find you some more easily understandable sites for the world muslim population then. the others should be pretty self evident as to numbers. those were old ones i had.


----------



## sealadaigh

reabhloideach said:


> tinydancer said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> reabhloideach said:
> 
> 
> 
> and the KKK uses christianity.
> 
> look, give me numbers. how many muslims served in hitler's armies. when you get to 150,000, the number of jews serving in hitler's armies. then i will start talking to you about proportions and percentages.
> 
> also, you have not responded to anything i put out...the west bank rabbi, the vichy french, the british lord haw-haw. i only use them as analogous examples to your "grand mufti" example. he was one man. he represented 1,000,000 palestinians, a pittance of the muslim world.
> 
> so, give me some numbers here. get me 5,000,000 muslims in hitlers armies and we can talk. hey. i feel generous; get me 2,000,000. that is out of a worldwide population of about 500,000,000 muslims worlwide. that would make me consider your assertion that islam had a historic connection with the NAZIs.
> 
> but until then...no central authority, so numbers will be your only proof.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You've given me the stories. You've given me no links.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Palestine's Population During The Ottoman And The British Mandate Periods, 559
> 
> MidEast Web - Population of Palestine
> 
> Hitler's Jewish Soldiers
> 
> Muslim Population Statistics
> 
> http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.180.3753&rep=rep1&type=pdf
> 
> i hope you have an adding machine and graph paper for the world muslim population because ithey nwere not keen on demographics at the time. i got a low of 300,000,000 and a high of about 550,000,000 ...
> 
> or you can just do it the easy way, with a world population of 7 billion today and 2.3 billion in 1940 and do the rough but much easier math of 1.5 billion muslims today which, reduced correspondingly, would equal about 500,000,000 in 1940.
> 
> or, if you have better data, i will take it but reaally, 300,000,000 and 500,000,000 are pretty acceptable figures for between 1940 and 1972.
> 
> oh p,s, just so ya don't think i am a total weirdo, i needed that info once and wrote it down and extrapolated stuff. i used to be a fire direction computer in a division level artillery unit (9th divarty) and it ain't that easy to put a round on target five miles away, what with the world turning and the air getting thicker and 5 slide rules that ya had to mark adjustments on and stuff like time on targets and airbursts and do it all in 2 minutes or less.
> 
> i will try to find you some more easily understandable sites for the world muslim population then. the others should be pretty self evident as to numbers. those were old ones i had.
Click to expand...



actually, i don't need to provide links or anything. feel free to disregard any numbers for now. my links are valid and at the time i was arguing more on the basis of interest and not position. it is you, however, who made the allegation. i tried to be fair and use the figure that would most benefit your argument if there was a variance.

all you have given me is haj amin al-husseini to establish some sort of historical connection between hitler and islam or nazis and islam. i am not sure what  you mean. when i brought up islam's "support" you backed off from that word. i suppose that we could also demonstrate islam's historical connection with the nazis by discussing the king of morocco's defiance of nai and the hitlers as proof also.

i, of course, assumed that your "connection with the nazis" meant there was support from islam of the nazis, particularly since you have only provided examples of muslims cooperating and collaborating with the nazis.

now, you have not answered one single question i have asked and, in fact, you have dismissed them rudely. if thaat is how you debate/discuss, than there is no reason at all for me to even be here. you may as well talk to yourself. i did ask a number of questions.

here is the most simple, reequiring only a yes or no answer. "while i am not speaking of catholics specifically, do you agree that most CHRISTIANS believe in the infallibility of the pope?" all i want is a "yes, i agree that most christians believe in papal infallibility" ot "no, most christians do not believe in papal infallibility."

stupid question, perhaps, but i ask questions like that actuaally in an attempt to understand exactly what you mean by proving that "islam's historical connection with the nazis." you also may want to explain that, as you really have not answered any direct or indirect queries on that matter.

so where are we this morning. well, i am a night owl but i went out of my way to accomodate you yesterday. no bigs. you said you would prove islam's historical commection with the nazis. you have merely served up the head of haj amin al-husseini a dozen or times and a point i had already conceded. so we really aren't arguing anything and you really haven't proven anything. all we have done is waste out time.

if you want to continue, you will need to answer some of the questions i ask or point out the errors in some of my analogy because i really do not have the time to waste.

help me out. here is another question. do you interpret islam's historical connection with the nazis the same, at least for the purpose of this argument, as islams's historical support of the nazis.


----------



## tinydancer

Well good morning. I too am a night hawk; if you would prefer to move our actual debating time today from 7pm to midnight, I'd be more than happy to engage you in that time period.


----------



## tinydancer

Now lets clear some things up. We are engaging in a debate. Factual accuracy is a key part of debating.
For me to accept your assertions, you have to back them up with links.

I have given links. And of course will continue to do so. 

Debate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

*Debate is a method of interactive and representational argument. Debate is a broader form of argument than deductive reasoning, which only examines whether a conclusion is a consequence of premisses, and factual argument, which only examines what is or isn't the case, or rhetoric, which is a technique of persuasion. 

Though logical consistency, factual accuracy and some degree of emotional appeal to the audience are important elements of the art of persuasion, in debating, one side often prevails over the other side by presenting a superior "context" and/or framework of the issue, which is far more subtle and strategic.*


----------



## sealadaigh

tinydancer said:


> Well good morning. I too am a night hawk; if you would prefer to move our actual debating time today from 7pm to midnight, I'd be more than happy to engage you in that time period.



night owl to me generally means midnight to about 6:00 AM. doesn't matter. just post when you can and i will respond when i can. my schedule is all up in the air anyway.

what i also need to know is what your definition of islam is? if you mean it is a religion not unlike judaism or christianity (other than theological beliefs, of course)?

and i need to know what you mean by "historical connection" because i thought you meant support...i.e. that islam supported the nazis? i mean, i can make a historical connection between newgrange, the incan pyramids, and solomon's temple.

it is time for you to be specific and define your terms.

also, you may want to realise, again, that opinion is not proof. facts are proof.

and again, if you do not start answering my questions, this is nothing but a lecture, and a rather monotonous one at this point, i might add. answer my few questions when i ask them or i am done. i am not asking superfluous questions like "was ted williams the greatesy hitter in baseball?"

keep blowing me off and i am out of here. i have told you to answer them at least three times. you ust blew by another one, and all it needed was a "yes" or "no" answer.


----------



## tinydancer

> i, of course, assumed that your "connection with the nazis" meant there was support from islam of the nazis, particularly since you have only provided examples of muslims cooperating and collaborating with the nazis.



You assumed incorrectly. I do not believe that Islam embraced Nazism. I have stated this repeatedly. My contention and my premise for this debate is to prove the historical connection between the Nazis and the use of Islam during WWII.

Now why on earth would I provide examples of "mohammed six pack" not collaborating with the Nazis?



Instead I am proving and shall continue to prove how Islam was used in WWII as a tool for the Nazis; and how an extraordinarily powerful figure in Islam, the Grand Mufti joyfully collaborated with the Nazis in recruitment missions and in propagandizing.

AND it matters not what scale of success their plan had. Not at all. 

The point was that this was part of the Nazi - Pan Arab idealogues' tactics in WWII.


----------



## tinydancer

reabhloideach said:


> tinydancer said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well good morning. I too am a night hawk; if you would prefer to move our actual debating time today from 7pm to midnight, I'd be more than happy to engage you in that time period.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> night owl to me generally means midnight to about 6:00 AM. doesn't matter. just post when you can and i will respond when i can. my schedule is all up in the air anyway.
> 
> what i also need to know is what your definition of islam is? if you mean it is a religion not unlike judaism or christianity (other than theological beliefs, of course)?
> 
> and i need to know what you mean by "historical connection" because i thought you meant support...i.e. that islam supported the nazis? i mean, i can make a historical connection between newgrange, the incan pyramids, and solomon's temple.
> 
> it is time for you to be specific and define your terms.
> 
> also, you may want to realise, again, that opinion is not proof. facts are proof.
> 
> and again, if you do not start answering my questions, this is nothing but a lecture, and a rather monotonous one at this point, i might add. answer my few questions when i ask them or i am done. i am not asking superfluous questions like "was ted williams the greatesy hitter in baseball?"
> 
> keep blowing me off and i am out of here. i have told you to answer them at least three times. you ust blew by another one, and all it needed was a "yes" or "no" answer.
Click to expand...


By no means am I blowing you off. I am trying to dissect your posts and respond to each of your concerns. 

Hang in there.


----------



## tinydancer

Going to have brunch. And never fear; I shall address your questions.


----------



## sealadaigh

tinydancer said:


> Now lets clear some things up. We are engaging in a debate. Factual accuracy is a key part of debating.
> For me to accept your assertions, you have to back them up with links.
> 
> I have given links. And of course will continue to do so.
> 
> Debate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> *Debate is a method of interactive and representational argument. Debate is a broader form of argument than deductive reasoning, which only examines whether a conclusion is a consequence of premisses, and factual argument, which only examines what is or isn't the case, or rhetoric, which is a technique of persuasion.
> 
> Though logical consistency, factual accuracy and some degree of emotional appeal to the audience are important elements of the art of persuasion, in debating, one side often prevails over the other side by presenting a superior "context" and/or framework of the issue, which is far more subtle and strategic.*



i have absolutely nothing to prove and yesterday was a courtesy on my part to you...to establish some facts. i provided you links so at least we have a base line. i didn't need to do that. that would be your responsibility. you provide whichever numbers you will. numbers are part of proving.

you made the assertion that you could prove that islam had a historical connection with the NAZIs and hitler.

all i said was that you could not prove that.

the burden of any proof lies entirely on you.

i had, even before you began, laid out your game plan for you, to which you have, for the most part, adhered.

now, i am asking you what you mean and i am telling you to answer my questions, which for some very odd reason, you seem very reluctant to do in the pursuit of your particular agenda.


----------



## sealadaigh

tinydancer said:


> Going to have brunch. And never fear; I shall address your questions.



the particular question i asked earlier today/this morning merely required a "yes" or "no" answer. that is all i waanted. what? are you waiting for some coach, getting more chairs, calling an EMT for me, reading a comic with a DVD of WWE in the background?. what?

simce then i have asked a few more, sure, but start with the one about papal infallibility and christian beliefs.


----------



## sealadaigh

tinydancer said:


> i, of course, assumed that your "connection with the nazis" meant there was support from islam of the nazis, particularly since you have only provided examples of muslims cooperating and collaborating with the nazis.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You assumed incorrectly. I do not believe that Islam embraced Nazism. I have stated this repeatedly. My contention and my premise for this debate is to prove the historical connection between the Nazis and the use of Islam during WWII.
> 
> Now why on earth would I provide examples of "mohammed six pack" not collaborating with the Nazis?
> 
> 
> 
> Instead I am proving and shall continue to prove how Islam was used in WWII as a tool for the Nazis; and how an extraordinarily powerful figure in Islam, the Grand Mufti joyfully collaborated with the Nazis in recruitment missions and in propagandizing.
> 
> AND it matters not what scale of success their plan had. Not at all.
> 
> The point was that this was part of the Nazi - Pan Arab idealogues' tactics in WWII.
Click to expand...


well, you really leave me no choice but to concede this LECTURE. your "islam's historical connection with the NAZIs", which has morphed into a NAZI pan-arab ideologue, consists exactly of a relatively minor muslim figure's highly unsuccessful  attempt to lend support to hitler, (a point i had conceded even before the "debate" began) against a country he had been fighting long berore hitler even showed on the scene?

what a waste of time.


----------



## tinydancer

reabhloideach said:


> tinydancer said:
> 
> 
> 
> Going to have brunch. And never fear; I shall address your questions.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> the particular question i asked earlier today/this morning merely required a "yes" or "no" answer. that is all i waanted. what? are you waiting for some coach, getting more chairs, calling an EMT for me, reading a comic with a DVD of WWE in the background?. what?
> 
> simce then i have asked a few more, sure, but start with the one about papal infallibility and christian beliefs.
Click to expand...


I can't speak for all Christians but I personally don't believe in Papal infallibility. And I will meet you back here at 7pm central.


----------



## tinydancer

reabhloideach said:


> tinydancer said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> i, of course, assumed that your "connection with the nazis" meant there was support from islam of the nazis, particularly since you have only provided examples of muslims cooperating and collaborating with the nazis.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You assumed incorrectly. I do not believe that Islam embraced Nazism. I have stated this repeatedly. My contention and my premise for this debate is to prove the historical connection between the Nazis and the use of Islam during WWII.
> 
> Now why on earth would I provide examples of "mohammed six pack" not collaborating with the Nazis?
> 
> 
> 
> Instead I am proving and shall continue to prove how Islam was used in WWII as a tool for the Nazis; and how an extraordinarily powerful figure in Islam, the Grand Mufti joyfully collaborated with the Nazis in recruitment missions and in propagandizing.
> 
> AND it matters not what scale of success their plan had. Not at all.
> 
> The point was that this was part of the Nazi - Pan Arab idealogues' tactics in WWII.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> well, you really leave me no choice but to concede this LECTURE. your "islam's historical connection with the NAZIs", which has morphed into a NAZI pan-arab ideologue, consists exactly of a relatively minor muslim figure's highly unsuccessful  attempt to lend support to hitler, (a point i had conceded even before the "debate" began) against a country he had been fighting long berore hitler even showed on the scene?
> 
> what a waste of time.
Click to expand...


Why are you getting your knickers in a twist? We are engaged in formal debate. 

You have your style I have mine. See you at 7pm.


----------



## sealadaigh

tinydancer said:


> reabhloideach said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> tinydancer said:
> 
> 
> 
> Going to have brunch. And never fear; I shall address your questions.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> the particular question i asked earlier today/this morning merely required a "yes" or "no" answer. that is all i waanted. what? are you waiting for some coach, getting more chairs, calling an EMT for me, reading a comic with a DVD of WWE in the background?. what?
> 
> simce then i have asked a few more, sure, but start with the one about papal infallibility and christian beliefs.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I can't speak for all Christians but I personally don't believe in Papal infallibility. And I will meet you back here at 7pm central.
Click to expand...


so, you can speak for islam but you cannot speak for christianity.

i will ask again, and all it requires is a yes or no answer. do you think that CHRISTIANS believe in papal infallibility?


----------



## sealadaigh

tinydancer said:


> reabhloideach said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> tinydancer said:
> 
> 
> 
> You assumed incorrectly. I do not believe that Islam embraced Nazism. I have stated this repeatedly. My contention and my premise for this debate is to prove the historical connection between the Nazis and the use of Islam during WWII.
> 
> Now why on earth would I provide examples of "mohammed six pack" not collaborating with the Nazis?
> 
> 
> 
> Instead I am proving and shall continue to prove how Islam was used in WWII as a tool for the Nazis; and how an extraordinarily powerful figure in Islam, the Grand Mufti joyfully collaborated with the Nazis in recruitment missions and in propagandizing.
> 
> AND it matters not what scale of success their plan had. Not at all.
> 
> The point was that this was part of the Nazi - Pan Arab idealogues' tactics in WWII.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> well, you really leave me no choice but to concede this LECTURE. your "islam's historical connection with the NAZIs", which has morphed into a NAZI pan-arab ideologue, consists exactly of a relatively minor muslim figure's highly unsuccessful  attempt to lend support to hitler, (a point i had conceded even before the "debate" began) against a country he had been fighting long berore hitler even showed on the scene?
> 
> what a waste of time.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Why are you getting your knickers in a twist? We are engaged in formal debate.
> 
> You have your style I have mine. See you at 7pm.
Click to expand...


my knickers are fine, thank you.

this is not a formaal debate of any sort. formal debates do not occur in bull rings.

you have failed miserably in answering one single question i have asked.

you have refused to answer any question i have asked.

this is a lecture you are delivering.

what is even beyond all credulity is you have actually managed to go backwards from the haj amin al-husseini concession i had made originally by saying it did not matter that his propaganda was unsuccessful amongst muslims.

7:00 PM...i will be here when i get here. i am not about to live my life on your schedule. 

i have given you plenty to do. here is another. what percentage of the islamic world did this "extraordinarily powerful figure in the muslim world", al-husseini, represent?


----------



## tinydancer

reabhloideach said:


> tinydancer said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> reabhloideach said:
> 
> 
> 
> the particular question i asked earlier today/this morning merely required a "yes" or "no" answer. that is all i waanted. what? are you waiting for some coach, getting more chairs, calling an EMT for me, reading a comic with a DVD of WWE in the background?. what?
> 
> simce then i have asked a few more, sure, but start with the one about papal infallibility and christian beliefs.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I can't speak for all Christians but I personally don't believe in Papal infallibility. And I will meet you back here at 7pm central.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> so, you can speak for islam but you cannot speak for christianity.
> 
> i will ask again, and all it requires is a yes or no answer. do you think that CHRISTIANS believe in papal infallibility?
Click to expand...


I never claimed to speak for Islam. Ever. You are the one claiming I am. That would be a lie. 

I am debating using historical documentation.

I don't claim to speak for Christianity. I have no idea how this pertains to the debate.

But I'll indulge you. I don't think that the Christian world in general would believe in Papal infallibility because there are so many different sects that make up Christianity. 

See you at 7pm.


----------



## sealadaigh

tinydancer said:


> reabhloideach said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> tinydancer said:
> 
> 
> 
> I can't speak for all Christians but I personally don't believe in Papal infallibility. And I will meet you back here at 7pm central.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> so, you can speak for islam but you cannot speak for christianity.
> 
> i will ask again, and all it requires is a yes or no answer. do you think that CHRISTIANS believe in papal infallibility?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I never claimed to speak for Islam. Ever. You are the one claiming I am. That would be a lie.
> 
> I am debating using historical documentation.
> 
> I don't claim to speak for Christianity. I have no idea how this pertains to the debate.
> 
> But I'll indulge you. I don't think that the Christian world in general would believe in Papal infallibility because there are so many different sects that make up Christianity.
> 
> See you at 7pm.
Click to expand...


well, you seem to be speaking for mislam in your claim of some sort of historical connection.

the christianity question had a purpose. i can exploain later.

you are not debating. you are lecturing and you are being very vague about what you are debating about.

i will ask another very simple question. are you trying to prove the historical connection between islam and the nazis?


----------



## tinydancer

This is called a rebuttal:

You stated this:



> you gave me a timeline of al-husseini's activities from about 1940 on


I gave you an earlier outline but I'll give it again in more detail.



> well, you really leave me no choice but to concede this LECTURE. your "islam's historical connection with the NAZIs", which has morphed into a NAZI pan-arab ideologue, consists exactly of a relatively minor muslim figure's highly unsuccessful attempt to lend support to hitler, (a point i had conceded even before the "debate" began) against a country he had been fighting long berore hitler even showed on the scene?




Very quickly here let's address this fallacy of yours that the Grand Mufti was a relatively minor Muslim figure.

Husseini came from an old family of nobles. His father in fact was a Grand Mufti of Jerusalem in the days of the Ottoman Empire. Tahir al Husseini.

He went to University in Cairo. We're speaking of the early 1900's here. This shows he came from nobility to receive this level of education.

At Al Azhar University he studied Islamic Jurisprudence. At Dar al-Dawa wal-Ershad a school founded by a Syrian member of the Salafi sect. This is supposedly where he got his Practical Revolutionary 101 degree.

Then he goes onto the College of Literature of Cairo University and then he goes even further with his education in Istanbul where he attends the Ottoman School for Administrators. This level of education combined with his stature from a noble family already sets him apart in this part of the world.

After a brief stint in the Ottoman Army, he gets a pass from the British and they give him the position of Grand Mufti of Jerusalem.

It's a big deal. He's not a nobody. He's not minor player. Husseini is basically becoming a ruler. Then on top of all of this he's elected the President of the Supreme Muslim Council and he's really made it to the top. He's in charge of financial disbursements, appointing judges and teachers.

On top of all that, Husseini's in charge of the Holy sites including the Al-Aqsa Mosque oh and just for extra good measure to up his stature even more, the Sunnis consider the Grand Mufti to be the chief religious authority in Jerusalem.

Not your average rinky dink player for crying out loud. It looks like there's no glass ceiling for him till he blows it during the Arab Revolt of 1936 to 1939.

Nonetheless, he's basically ruling the area from 1922 to 1937 till he had to bail.

But he doesn't fade into obscurity. Hell no. The Grand Mufti moves onto the Kingdom of Iraq, helps start a revolution, granted they end up losing and eventually then gets bailed out to Italy.

And the rest is history.

The key to all of this you see, is not what you think of him, or I think of him.

Historically he was a very high ranking individual within the Arab world and the Axis firmly believed he could assist in delivering the middle east to them in WWII.

It doesn't matter that all their plans failed. Mussolini and Hitler both believed in his power and they collaborated.

It's not the Grand Mufti's fault that the Axis lost.


----------



## sealadaigh

maybe you should define what you mean by "islam", what you meaan by "historical connection."

also, maybe you could explain, if you are not trying to prove islam's support for the NAZIs, why you admit to trying to prove islam's support for the NAZIs?


----------



## sealadaigh

tinydancer said:


> This is called a rebuttal:
> 
> You stated this:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> you gave me a timeline of al-husseini's activities from about 1940 on
> 
> 
> 
> I gave you an earlier outline but I'll give it again in more detail.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> well, you really leave me no choice but to concede this LECTURE. your "islam's historical connection with the NAZIs", which has morphed into a NAZI pan-arab ideologue, consists exactly of a relatively minor muslim figure's highly unsuccessful attempt to lend support to hitler, (a point i had conceded even before the "debate" began) against a country he had been fighting long berore hitler even showed on the scene?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Very quickly here let's address this fallacy of yours that the Grand Mufti was a relatively minor Muslim figure.
> 
> Husseini came from an old family of nobles. His father in fact was a Grand Mufti of Jerusalem in the days of the Ottoman Empire. Tahir al Husseini.
> 
> He went to University in Cairo. We're speaking of the early 1900's here. This shows he came from nobility to receive this level of education.
> 
> At Al Azhar University he studied Islamic Jurisprudence. At Dar al-Dawa wal-Ershad a school founded by a Syrian member of the Salafi sect. This is supposedly where he got his Practical Revolutionary 101 degree.
> 
> Then he goes onto the College of Literature of Cairo University and then he goes even further with his education in Istanbul where he attends the Ottoman School for Administrators. This level of education combined with his stature from a noble family already sets him apart in this part of the world.
> 
> After a brief stint in the Ottoman Army, he gets a pass from the British and they give him the position of Grand Mufti of Jerusalem.
> 
> It's a big deal. He's not a nobody. He's not minor player. Husseini is basically becoming a ruler. Then on top of all of this he's elected the President of the Supreme Muslim Council and he's really made it to the top. He's in charge of financial disbursements, appointing judges and teachers.
> 
> On top of all that, Husseini's in charge of the Holy sites including the Al-Aqsa Mosque oh and just for extra good measure to up his stature even more, the Sunnis consider the Grand Mufti to be the chief religious authority in Jerusalem.
> 
> Not your average rinky dink player for crying out loud. It looks like there's no glass ceiling for him till he blows it during the Arab Revolt of 1936 to 1939.
> 
> Nonetheless, he's basically ruling the area from 1922 to 1937 till he had to bail.
> 
> But he doesn't fade into obscurity. Hell no. The Grand Mufti moves onto the Kingdom of Iraq, helps start a revolution, granted they end up losing and eventually then gets bailed out to Italy.
> 
> And the rest is history.
> 
> The key to all of this you see, is not what you think of him, or I think of him.
> 
> Historically he was a very high ranking individual within the Arab world and the Axis firmly believed he could assist in delivering the middle east to them in WWII.
> 
> It doesn't matter that all their plans failed. Mussolini and Hitler both believed in his power and they collaborated.
> 
> It's not the Grand Mufti's fault that the Axis lost.
Click to expand...


i asked for numbers.

how many muslims did he represent?

if he was so influential, why did he fail?

woulodn't his failure be more indicative of islam's historical connection with the nazis?

so where aare we...yes...islam's historical connection with the NAZIs consists of one relatively unimportant cleric's failed attempts to solicit muslim aid for the NAZIs.

look, why don't you just be honest with me. you have had no iintention to show islam's historic relation with the NAZIs. wht you are trying to prove is that islam supported the NAZIs. most of us see that, despite your claims to the contrary.


----------



## tinydancer

reabhloideach said:


> maybe you should define what you mean by "islam", what you meaan by "historical connection."
> 
> also, maybe you could explain, if you are not trying to prove islam's support for the NAZIs, why you admit to trying to prove islam's support for the NAZIs?



Islam as faith and traditions based on the Koran and hadiths of course. And of course Muslim society. 

Historical connection would be the undeniable use of propaganda via radio and leaflets to influence the Arab world using a hybrid version of Nazi ideals and cherry picked Islamist visions basically zeroing in on anti Jewish sentiments and anti Allied sentiments. 

And I've never said  that Islam supported the Nazis. That's a fabrication. 

My intent is very clear. See post #4.

*
It is my intention in this debate to prove Islam's direct historical ties to the Nazis and Hitler.

I will prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that the Nazi propaganda machine collaborated with Arab exiles to pervert portions of the Koran and how traditions of Islam were used by both the Nazis and the exiles in their incessant broadcasts to the Arab world.*


----------



## tinydancer

reabhloideach said:


> tinydancer said:
> 
> 
> 
> This is called a rebuttal:
> 
> You stated this:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> you gave me a timeline of al-husseini's activities from about 1940 on
> 
> 
> 
> I gave you an earlier outline but I'll give it again in more detail.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> well, you really leave me no choice but to concede this LECTURE. your "islam's historical connection with the NAZIs", which has morphed into a NAZI pan-arab ideologue, consists exactly of a relatively minor muslim figure's highly unsuccessful attempt to lend support to hitler, (a point i had conceded even before the "debate" began) against a country he had been fighting long berore hitler even showed on the scene?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Very quickly here let's address this fallacy of yours that the Grand Mufti was a relatively minor Muslim figure.
> 
> Husseini came from an old family of nobles. His father in fact was a Grand Mufti of Jerusalem in the days of the Ottoman Empire. Tahir al Husseini.
> 
> He went to University in Cairo. We're speaking of the early 1900's here. This shows he came from nobility to receive this level of education.
> 
> At Al Azhar University he studied Islamic Jurisprudence. At Dar al-Dawa wal-Ershad a school founded by a Syrian member of the Salafi sect. This is supposedly where he got his Practical Revolutionary 101 degree.
> 
> Then he goes onto the College of Literature of Cairo University and then he goes even further with his education in Istanbul where he attends the Ottoman School for Administrators. This level of education combined with his stature from a noble family already sets him apart in this part of the world.
> 
> After a brief stint in the Ottoman Army, he gets a pass from the British and they give him the position of Grand Mufti of Jerusalem.
> 
> It's a big deal. He's not a nobody. He's not minor player. Husseini is basically becoming a ruler. Then on top of all of this he's elected the President of the Supreme Muslim Council and he's really made it to the top. He's in charge of financial disbursements, appointing judges and teachers.
> 
> On top of all that, Husseini's in charge of the Holy sites including the Al-Aqsa Mosque oh and just for extra good measure to up his stature even more, the Sunnis consider the Grand Mufti to be the chief religious authority in Jerusalem.
> 
> Not your average rinky dink player for crying out loud. It looks like there's no glass ceiling for him till he blows it during the Arab Revolt of 1936 to 1939.
> 
> Nonetheless, he's basically ruling the area from 1922 to 1937 till he had to bail.
> 
> But he doesn't fade into obscurity. Hell no. The Grand Mufti moves onto the Kingdom of Iraq, helps start a revolution, granted they end up losing and eventually then gets bailed out to Italy.
> 
> And the rest is history.
> 
> The key to all of this you see, is not what you think of him, or I think of him.
> 
> Historically he was a very high ranking individual within the Arab world and the Axis firmly believed he could assist in delivering the middle east to them in WWII.
> 
> It doesn't matter that all their plans failed. Mussolini and Hitler both believed in his power and they collaborated.
> 
> It's not the Grand Mufti's fault that the Axis lost.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> i asked for numbers.
> 
> how many muslims did he represent?
> 
> if he was so influential, why did he fail?
> 
> woulodn't his failure be more indicative of islam's historical connection with the nazis?
> 
> so where aare we...yes...islam's historical connection with the NAZIs consists of one relatively unimportant cleric's failed attempts to solicit muslim aid for the NAZIs.
> 
> look, why don't you just be honest with me. you have had no iintention to show islam's historic relation with the NAZIs. wht you are trying to prove is that islam supported the NAZIs. most of us see that, despite your claims to the contrary.
Click to expand...


It appears you have no intent of truly debating.

Your argument is fool hardy.

For example Hitler had a massive army. An extremely awesome killer force. Fabulous strategists.  And yet they lost. He was influential to the detriment of many. And yet Hitler failed. 

And to call the Grand Mufti an unimportant cleric reveals your ignorance of this highly regarded man. 

Now I may not be a fan of his fan club, but his admirers ranged from the al - Banna and the Muslim Brotherhood to Arafat and to leaders of this century. 

He was lionized when he escaped French custody after the war and returned to the middle east.


----------



## sealadaigh

tinydancer said:


> reabhloideach said:
> 
> 
> 
> maybe you should define what you mean by "islam", what you meaan by "historical connection."
> 
> also, maybe you could explain, if you are not trying to prove islam's support for the NAZIs, why you admit to trying to prove islam's support for the NAZIs?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Islam as faith and traditions based on the Koran and hadiths of course. And of course Muslim society.
> 
> Historical connection would be the undeniable use of propaganda via radio and leaflets to influence the Arab world using a hybrid version of Nazi ideals and cherry picked Islamist visions basically zeroing in on anti Jewish sentiments and anti Allied sentiments.
> 
> And I've never said  that Islam supported the Nazis. That's a fabrication.
> 
> My intent is very clear. See post #4.
> 
> *
> It is my intention in this debate to prove Islam's direct historical ties to the Nazis and Hitler.
> 
> I will prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that the Nazi propaganda machine collaborated with Arab exiles to pervert portions of the Koran and how traditions of Islam were used by both the Nazis and the exiles in their incessant broadcasts to the Arab world.*
Click to expand...


no...you are not going to pull that switch on me.

you have equated "islam" (as in "islam's historic connection with the nazis") with arab exiles and you have further said that this minescule number of arab exiles have pervertedd islam (as in "islam's histoyic connection to the nazis") to their own ends.

furthermore, you have stated that this minescule amount of arab exciles were not successful in their attempts.


you have, rather successfully, proved exactly the opposite of what you set out to prove.


----------



## tinydancer

reabhloideach said:


> tinydancer said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> reabhloideach said:
> 
> 
> 
> maybe you should define what you mean by "islam", what you meaan by "historical connection."
> 
> also, maybe you could explain, if you are not trying to prove islam's support for the NAZIs, why you admit to trying to prove islam's support for the NAZIs?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Islam as faith and traditions based on the Koran and hadiths of course. And of course Muslim society.
> 
> Historical connection would be the undeniable use of propaganda via radio and leaflets to influence the Arab world using a hybrid version of Nazi ideals and cherry picked Islamist visions basically zeroing in on anti Jewish sentiments and anti Allied sentiments.
> 
> And I've never said  that Islam supported the Nazis. That's a fabrication.
> 
> My intent is very clear. See post #4.
> 
> *
> It is my intention in this debate to prove Islam's direct historical ties to the Nazis and Hitler.
> 
> I will prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that the Nazi propaganda machine collaborated with Arab exiles to pervert portions of the Koran and how traditions of Islam were used by both the Nazis and the exiles in their incessant broadcasts to the Arab world.*
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> no...you are not going to pull that switch on me.
> 
> you have equated "islam" (as in "islam's historic connection with the nazis") with arab exiles and you have further said that this minescule number of arab exiles have pervertedd islam (as in "islam's histoyic connection to the nazis") to their own ends.
> 
> furthermore, you have stated that this minescule amount of arab exciles were not successful in their attempts.
> 
> 
> you have, rather successfully, proved exactly the opposite of what you set out to prove.
Click to expand...


You are insane.

Because to think that just because this collaboration between Nazis and these high ranking Arab exiles didn't bear fruit, does not mean that the collaboration and the effort didn't exist. 

There is no logic whatsoever in that. The collaboration existed. Thousands of broadcasts and thousands and thousands of pamphlets and leaflets. 

*  Radio broadcasts wiki source
From wiki:

Matthias Küntzel has suggested that the decisive transfer of Jewish conspiracy theory took place between 1937 and 1945 under the impact of Nazi propaganda targeted at the Arab world.

 According to Kuntzel, the Nazi Arabic radio service had a staff of 80 and broadcast every day in Arabic, stressing the similarities between Islam and Nazism and supported by the activities of the Mufti of Jerusalem, Haj Amin al-Husayni (who broadcast pro-Nazi propaganda from Berlin).

 The Nazi regime also provided funding to the Egyptian Moslem Brotherhood, which began calling for boycotts of Jewish businesses in 1936.

Bernard Lewis also describes Nazi influence in the Arab world, including its impact on Michel Aflaq (a Christian), the principal founder of ba'athist thought (which later dominated Syria and Iraq).

After the promulgation of the Nuremberg Laws, Hitler received telegrams of congratulation from all over the Arab and Muslim world, especially from Morocco and Palestine, where the Nazi propaganda had been most active... ...

 Before long political parties of the Nazi and Fascist type began to appear, complete with paramilitary youth organizations, colored shirts, strict discipline and more or less charismatic leaders
* 

Antisemitism in the Arab world - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


----------



## tinydancer

I may not like what the Grand Mufti stood for. But he was to his people a great and powerful man from Palestine who spent his whole life trying to win their statehood. 

I can recognize this. 

I find it appalling that you seek to demean the Grand Mufti.

I had to come back and add this. 

The Grand Mufti was revered by his fellow Muslims. And he still is to this day. Husseini was admired by Mussolini, Hitler and Himmler.

He was so feared by the Allies that they set up their own propaganda campaigns to counter the Grand Mufti.

But some poster on the USMB Message board is trying to make the argument that the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem was just some two bit rinky dink loser cleric. 

Wow. Just wow.


----------



## tinydancer

I would like to take a short break now Connery; when I return at 9pm I will begin to document the Nazi - Arab propaganda machinery.


----------



## sealadaigh

tinydancer said:


> I may not like what the Grand Mufti stood for. But he was to his people a great and powerful man from Palestine who spent his whole life trying to win their statehood.
> 
> I can recognize this.
> 
> I find it appalling that you seek to demean the Grand Mufti.



i am not dismissing him at all. i think he is a worthy andd great hero to his people who, because he is palestinian and because zionists/jews have a need to demonise him because of his ethnicity, they exaggerate his connection with hitler for that purpose, and ignore his long struggle against british (and subsequently jewish europeans) colonialism.

but, give me numbers. numbers are proof. what pecentage of muslims did al-husseini represent in his unsuccessful attempt to influence the islamic world to nazis. how many muslims were in the wehrmacht, whicvch had a peaak strength od 20,000,000, i believe.

.


----------



## sealadaigh

tinydancer said:


> I would like to take a short break now Connery; when I return at 9pm I will begin to document the Nazi - Arab propaganda machinery.



too funny, connery lingering around in the background feeding you, and volunteering to be a judge.

i don't have a problem. bring him in on your team.


----------



## sealadaigh

tinydancer said:


> reabhloideach said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> tinydancer said:
> 
> 
> 
> Islam as faith and traditions based on the Koran and hadiths of course. And of course Muslim society.
> 
> Historical connection would be the undeniable use of propaganda via radio and leaflets to influence the Arab world using a hybrid version of Nazi ideals and cherry picked Islamist visions basically zeroing in on anti Jewish sentiments and anti Allied sentiments.
> 
> And I've never said  that Islam supported the Nazis. That's a fabrication.
> 
> My intent is very clear. See post #4.
> 
> *
> It is my intention in this debate to prove Islam's direct historical ties to the Nazis and Hitler.
> 
> I will prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that the Nazi propaganda machine collaborated with Arab exiles to pervert portions of the Koran and how traditions of Islam were used by both the Nazis and the exiles in their incessant broadcasts to the Arab world.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> no...you are not going to pull that switch on me.
> 
> you have equated "islam" (as in "islam's historic connection with the nazis") with arab exiles and you have further said that this minescule number of arab exiles have pervertedd islam (as in "islam's histoyic connection to the nazis") to their own ends.
> 
> furthermore, you have stated that this minescule amount of arab exciles were not successful in their attempts.
> 
> 
> you have, rather successfully, proved exactly the opposite of what you set out to prove.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You are insane.
> 
> Because to think that just because this collaboration between Nazis and these high ranking Arab exiles didn't bear fruit, does not mean that the collaboration and the effort didn't exist.
> 
> There is no logic whatsoever in that. The collaboration existed. Thousands of broadcasts and thousands and thousands of pamphlets and leaflets.
> 
> *  Radio broadcasts wiki source
> From wiki:
> 
> Matthias Küntzel has suggested that the decisive transfer of Jewish conspiracy theory took place between 1937 and 1945 under the impact of Nazi propaganda targeted at the Arab world.
> 
> According to Kuntzel, the Nazi Arabic radio service had a staff of 80 and broadcast every day in Arabic, stressing the similarities between Islam and Nazism and supported by the activities of the Mufti of Jerusalem, Haj Amin al-Husayni (who broadcast pro-Nazi propaganda from Berlin).
> 
> The Nazi regime also provided funding to the Egyptian Moslem Brotherhood, which began calling for boycotts of Jewish businesses in 1936.
> 
> Bernard Lewis also describes Nazi influence in the Arab world, including its impact on Michel Aflaq (a Christian), the principal founder of ba'athist thought (which later dominated Syria and Iraq).
> 
> After the promulgation of the Nuremberg Laws, Hitler received telegrams of congratulation from all over the Arab and Muslim world, especially from Morocco and Palestine, where the Nazi propaganda had been most active... ...
> 
> Before long political parties of the Nazi and Fascist type began to appear, complete with paramilitary youth organizations, colored shirts, strict discipline and more or less charismatic leaders
> *
> 
> Antisemitism in the Arab world - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Click to expand...


from the same source...

For most of the past fourteen hundred years, according to Bernard Lewis, Arabs have not been antisemitic as the word is used in the West. In his view this is because, for the most part, Arabs are not Christians brought up on stories of Jewish deicide. In Islam, such stories are rejected by the Qur'an as a blasphemous absurdity. Since Muslims do not consider themselves as the "true Israel", they do not feel threatened by the survival of Jews. Because Islam did not retain the Old Testament, no clash of interpretations between the two faiths can therefore arise. There is, says Lewis, no Muslim theological dispute between their religious institutions and the Jews.[3]

While there were antisemitic incidents in the early twentieth century, antisemitism has increased dramatically as a result of the Arab-Israeli conflict. After the 1948 Arab-Israeli War, the Palestinian exodus, the creation of the state of Israel, and Israeli victories during the wars of 1956 and 1967 were a severe humiliation to the Arabs.[4] The situation of the Jews in the Middle East worsened and almost all fled or were expelled from most Arab and Muslim countries. By the 1980s, according to Bernard Lewis, the volume of antisemitic literature published in the Arab world, and the authority of its sponsors, seemed to suggest that classical antisemitism had become an essential part of Arab intellectual life, considerably more than in late nineteenth- and early twentieth-century France, and to a degree that has been compared to Nazi Germany.[5]

the sword also means clean-ness+death. (el aurens. beidh ar la linn.)

you seem to be encountering some difficulty differentiating between the islamic faith and the arab thbicity


----------



## sealadaigh

tinydancer said:


> I would like to take a short break now Connery; when I return at 9pm I will begin to document the Nazi - Arab propaganda machinery.



you continue to cut the islamic world in half.

sixty seven percent, give or take, of christians believe in, or support, papal infallibility. the reason i asked that question is to get some sort of threshold as to what you consider support when the time comes, or has long past, for you to begin to quantify things.

Christianity - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

while we are here and as to your claim that you are only trying to show "islam's historical connection with hitler and the nazis" and your denials that you are not trying to show islam's support of the nazis...

"If I'm trying to prove a point why on earth should I go down paths to prove there were Muslim leaders that didn't support the Nazis.

That's stupid. So of course my presentation is going to be one sided. Good grief."

http://www.usmessageboard.com/6919602-post54.html

we are in agreement at least with the "Good grief" portion of this discussion.

are you some sort of octopus? i mean, how many feet do you have left to shoot?

you are not proving a point. you are pursuing an agenda.


----------



## tinydancer

reabhloideach said:


> tinydancer said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> reabhloideach said:
> 
> 
> 
> no...you are not going to pull that switch on me.
> 
> you have equated "islam" (as in "islam's historic connection with the nazis") with arab exiles and you have further said that this minescule number of arab exiles have pervertedd islam (as in "islam's histoyic connection to the nazis") to their own ends.
> 
> furthermore, you have stated that this minescule amount of arab exciles were not successful in their attempts.
> 
> 
> you have, rather successfully, proved exactly the opposite of what you set out to prove.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You are insane.
> 
> Because to think that just because this collaboration between Nazis and these high ranking Arab exiles didn't bear fruit, does not mean that the collaboration and the effort didn't exist.
> 
> There is no logic whatsoever in that. The collaboration existed. Thousands of broadcasts and thousands and thousands of pamphlets and leaflets.
> 
> *  Radio broadcasts wiki source
> From wiki:
> 
> Matthias Küntzel has suggested that the decisive transfer of Jewish conspiracy theory took place between 1937 and 1945 under the impact of Nazi propaganda targeted at the Arab world.
> 
> According to Kuntzel, the Nazi Arabic radio service had a staff of 80 and broadcast every day in Arabic, stressing the similarities between Islam and Nazism and supported by the activities of the Mufti of Jerusalem, Haj Amin al-Husayni (who broadcast pro-Nazi propaganda from Berlin).
> 
> The Nazi regime also provided funding to the Egyptian Moslem Brotherhood, which began calling for boycotts of Jewish businesses in 1936.
> 
> Bernard Lewis also describes Nazi influence in the Arab world, including its impact on Michel Aflaq (a Christian), the principal founder of ba'athist thought (which later dominated Syria and Iraq).
> 
> After the promulgation of the Nuremberg Laws, Hitler received telegrams of congratulation from all over the Arab and Muslim world, especially from Morocco and Palestine, where the Nazi propaganda had been most active... ...
> 
> Before long political parties of the Nazi and Fascist type began to appear, complete with paramilitary youth organizations, colored shirts, strict discipline and more or less charismatic leaders
> *
> 
> Antisemitism in the Arab world - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> from the same source...
> 
> For most of the past fourteen hundred years, according to Bernard Lewis, Arabs have not been antisemitic as the word is used in the West. In his view this is because, for the most part, Arabs are not Christians brought up on stories of Jewish deicide. In Islam, such stories are rejected by the Qur'an as a blasphemous absurdity. Since Muslims do not consider themselves as the "true Israel", they do not feel threatened by the survival of Jews. Because Islam did not retain the Old Testament, no clash of interpretations between the two faiths can therefore arise. There is, says Lewis, no Muslim theological dispute between their religious institutions and the Jews.[3]
> 
> While there were antisemitic incidents in the early twentieth century, antisemitism has increased dramatically as a result of the Arab-Israeli conflict. After the 1948 Arab-Israeli War, the Palestinian exodus, the creation of the state of Israel, and Israeli victories during the wars of 1956 and 1967 were a severe humiliation to the Arabs.[4] The situation of the Jews in the Middle East worsened and almost all fled or were expelled from most Arab and Muslim countries. By the 1980s, according to Bernard Lewis, the volume of antisemitic literature published in the Arab world, and the authority of its sponsors, seemed to suggest that classical antisemitism had become an essential part of Arab intellectual life, considerably more than in late nineteenth- and early twentieth-century France, and to a degree that has been compared to Nazi Germany.[5]
> 
> the sword also means clean-ness+death. (el aurens. beidh ar la linn.)
> 
> you seem to be encountering some difficulty differentiating between the islamic faith and the arab thbicity
Click to expand...


Not at all. I prefaced that link with Radio broadcasts. Remember? I'm laying the groundwork for the massive propaganda campaign?

The debate is not about antisemitism or where it comes from  We know that it exists. And that both the Nazis and the Grand Mufti had anti jew sentiments. 

That's just a fact.


----------



## tinydancer

reabhloideach said:


> tinydancer said:
> 
> 
> 
> I would like to take a short break now Connery; when I return at 9pm I will begin to document the Nazi - Arab propaganda machinery.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> you continue to cut the islamic world in half.
> 
> sixty seven percent, give or take, of christians believe in, or support, papal infallibility. the reason i asked that question is to get some sort of threshold as to what you consider support when the time comes, or has long past, for you to begin to quantify things.
> 
> Christianity - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> while we are here and as to your claim that you are only trying to show "islam's historical connection with hitler and the nazis" and your denials that you are not trying to show islam's support of the nazis...
> 
> "If I'm trying to prove a point why on earth should I go down paths to prove there were Muslim leaders that didn't support the Nazis.
> 
> That's stupid. So of course my presentation is going to be one sided. Good grief."
> 
> http://www.usmessageboard.com/6919602-post54.html
> 
> we are in agreement at least with the "Good grief" portion of this discussion.
> 
> are you some sort of octopus? i mean, how many feet do you have left to shoot?
> 
> you are not proving a point. you are pursuing an agenda.
Click to expand...


Accusing me of pursuing an agenda and now you have me working with Connery as my team member...

May I suggest you ask your therapist to up the voltage on your next visit.



You're nuts.

But I'll continue laying out the propaganda machine in my next post.


----------



## sealadaigh

tinydancer said:


> reabhloideach said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> tinydancer said:
> 
> 
> 
> You are insane.
> 
> Because to think that just because this collaboration between Nazis and these high ranking Arab exiles didn't bear fruit, does not mean that the collaboration and the effort didn't exist.
> 
> There is no logic whatsoever in that. The collaboration existed. Thousands of broadcasts and thousands and thousands of pamphlets and leaflets.
> 
> *  Radio broadcasts wiki source
> From wiki:
> 
> Matthias Küntzel has suggested that the decisive transfer of Jewish conspiracy theory took place between 1937 and 1945 under the impact of Nazi propaganda targeted at the Arab world.
> 
> According to Kuntzel, the Nazi Arabic radio service had a staff of 80 and broadcast every day in Arabic, stressing the similarities between Islam and Nazism and supported by the activities of the Mufti of Jerusalem, Haj Amin al-Husayni (who broadcast pro-Nazi propaganda from Berlin).
> 
> The Nazi regime also provided funding to the Egyptian Moslem Brotherhood, which began calling for boycotts of Jewish businesses in 1936.
> 
> Bernard Lewis also describes Nazi influence in the Arab world, including its impact on Michel Aflaq (a Christian), the principal founder of ba'athist thought (which later dominated Syria and Iraq).
> 
> After the promulgation of the Nuremberg Laws, Hitler received telegrams of congratulation from all over the Arab and Muslim world, especially from Morocco and Palestine, where the Nazi propaganda had been most active... ...
> 
> Before long political parties of the Nazi and Fascist type began to appear, complete with paramilitary youth organizations, colored shirts, strict discipline and more or less charismatic leaders
> *
> 
> Antisemitism in the Arab world - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> 
> 
> 
> from the same source...
> 
> For most of the past fourteen hundred years, according to Bernard Lewis, Arabs have not been antisemitic as the word is used in the West. In his view this is because, for the most part, Arabs are not Christians brought up on stories of Jewish deicide. In Islam, such stories are rejected by the Qur'an as a blasphemous absurdity. Since Muslims do not consider themselves as the "true Israel", they do not feel threatened by the survival of Jews. Because Islam did not retain the Old Testament, no clash of interpretations between the two faiths can therefore arise. There is, says Lewis, no Muslim theological dispute between their religious institutions and the Jews.[3]
> 
> While there were antisemitic incidents in the early twentieth century, antisemitism has increased dramatically as a result of the Arab-Israeli conflict. After the 1948 Arab-Israeli War, the Palestinian exodus, the creation of the state of Israel, and Israeli victories during the wars of 1956 and 1967 were a severe humiliation to the Arabs.[4] The situation of the Jews in the Middle East worsened and almost all fled or were expelled from most Arab and Muslim countries. By the 1980s, according to Bernard Lewis, the volume of antisemitic literature published in the Arab world, and the authority of its sponsors, seemed to suggest that classical antisemitism had become an essential part of Arab intellectual life, considerably more than in late nineteenth- and early twentieth-century France, and to a degree that has been compared to Nazi Germany.[5]
> 
> the sword also means clean-ness+death. (el aurens. beidh ar la linn.)
> 
> you seem to be encountering some difficulty differentiating between the islamic faith and the arab thbicity
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Not at all. I prefaced that link with Radio broadcasts. Remember? I'm laying the groundwork for the massive propaganda campaign?
> 
> *The debate is not about antisemitism or where it comes from * We know that it exists. And that both the Nazis and the Grand Mufti had anti jew sentiments.
> 
> That's just a fact.
Click to expand...


what you need to show me is that islam (50% + 1) supported the nazis. you are not even close.

what you have shown me is that a muslim cleric in cooperation with the nazis, failed to generate support in the muslim world for the nazis.

we are quantifying things now. do it.

and...it is your friggin' link on anti-semitism.


----------



## tinydancer

One of the key things about this alliance between the Nazis and the exiled high ranking Arabs was of course the mutual hatred of the Allies and of Jews. 

The common ground was there. Just needed to come together. 

At the beginning of the war despite the imperial intent on the part of Italy in the middle east, the Nazis were sort of making a feeble effort to use propaganda to win the hearts and minds of the Arab community.

But nothing really took off in the propaganda division regarding the ME until the successes started mounting with the North African campaigns.

 At the same time, you've got all these high ranking anti colonial exiled politicians showing up in Berlin after al Kilani's coup failure in Iraq.

The perfect propaganda storm was about to break loose. And on the Arab side of the propaganda machinery was Husseini. He was a gift to Hitler. 

One of the best sources that I've come across is this fabulous book by Jeffrey Herf. Nazi Propaganda for the Arab World.

It's so well researched. 

From a review:

*In chapters 4 and 5 Herf charts the takeoff in Nazi-Arab cooperation that occurred with the expansion of Nazi military efforts to North Africa and the emigration to Nazi-dominated Europe of anti-colonial Arab politicians in the aftermath of Rashid Ali al-Kilani's failed coup in Iraq in the spring of 1941. 

Of these émigrés, Haj Amin el-Husseini, the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, was to play a key role in facilitating a Nazi-Arab meeting of hearts and minds that resulted in an enormous German investment in constructing an Arab-exile/Nazi propaganda machine.

 For the next four years, this propaganda machine conducted daily broadcasts and printed millions of leaflets to popularize a hybrid Nazi/Islamist vision of the course and meaning of the war as part of an elaborate conspiracy of "international Jewry" and expound upon the anti-Jewish, anti-Allied political tasks facing the Arab world (p. 170).

In the following chapters, Herf notes how propaganda and Muslim outreach was a weapon that a dying German imperialism continued to grasp and deploy with increasing ferocity (and even less effect) from 1943 until the end of the war.

 Furthermore, el-Husseini and other Arab exiles stepped up their collaboration with the Nazis by aiding in the creation of SS (Schutzstaffel) units among Balkan Muslims and (less successfully) Allied Muslim POWs (prisoners of war). 

Although Nazi/Arab collaborationist propaganda, unsupported by the aura of Nazi military invincibility, had even less of a direct impact from 1943 onwards, it still alarmed official Anglo-American commentators in the Middle East, who reported on and attempted to track its effects while seeking to develop effective counter-propaganda.

 These Anglo-American efforts both to fathom and influence "the Arab" and his (apparently undifferentiated) responses to Nazi/Arab collaborationist propaganda, particularly its antisemitic virulence, are quite revealing (p. 76).*

H-Net Reviews


----------



## tinydancer

reabhloideach said:


> tinydancer said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> reabhloideach said:
> 
> 
> 
> from the same source...
> 
> For most of the past fourteen hundred years, according to Bernard Lewis, Arabs have not been antisemitic as the word is used in the West. In his view this is because, for the most part, Arabs are not Christians brought up on stories of Jewish deicide. In Islam, such stories are rejected by the Qur'an as a blasphemous absurdity. Since Muslims do not consider themselves as the "true Israel", they do not feel threatened by the survival of Jews. Because Islam did not retain the Old Testament, no clash of interpretations between the two faiths can therefore arise. There is, says Lewis, no Muslim theological dispute between their religious institutions and the Jews.[3]
> 
> While there were antisemitic incidents in the early twentieth century, antisemitism has increased dramatically as a result of the Arab-Israeli conflict. After the 1948 Arab-Israeli War, the Palestinian exodus, the creation of the state of Israel, and Israeli victories during the wars of 1956 and 1967 were a severe humiliation to the Arabs.[4] The situation of the Jews in the Middle East worsened and almost all fled or were expelled from most Arab and Muslim countries. By the 1980s, according to Bernard Lewis, the volume of antisemitic literature published in the Arab world, and the authority of its sponsors, seemed to suggest that classical antisemitism had become an essential part of Arab intellectual life, considerably more than in late nineteenth- and early twentieth-century France, and to a degree that has been compared to Nazi Germany.[5]
> 
> the sword also means clean-ness+death. (el aurens. beidh ar la linn.)
> 
> you seem to be encountering some difficulty differentiating between the islamic faith and the arab thbicity
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Not at all. I prefaced that link with Radio broadcasts. Remember? I'm laying the groundwork for the massive propaganda campaign?
> 
> *The debate is not about antisemitism or where it comes from * We know that it exists. And that both the Nazis and the Grand Mufti had anti jew sentiments.
> 
> That's just a fact.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> what you need to show me is that islam (50% + 1) supported the nazis. you are not even close.
> 
> what you have shown me is that a muslim cleric in cooperation with the nazis, failed to generate support in the muslim world for the nazis.
> 
> we are quantifying things now. do it.
> 
> and...it is your friggin' link on anti-semitism.
Click to expand...


I don't believe that Islam supported the Nazis. I've stated this time and time again. 

I won't even attempt to prove something I don't believe.


----------



## sealadaigh

tinydancer said:


> reabhloideach said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> tinydancer said:
> 
> 
> 
> I would like to take a short break now Connery; when I return at 9pm I will begin to document the Nazi - Arab propaganda machinery.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> you continue to cut the islamic world in half.
> 
> sixty seven percent, give or take, of christians believe in, or support, papal infallibility. the reason i asked that question is to get some sort of threshold as to what you consider support when the time comes, or has long past, for you to begin to quantify things.
> 
> Christianity - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> while we are here and as to your claim that you are only trying to show "islam's historical connection with hitler and the nazis" and your denials that you are not trying to show islam's support of the nazis...
> 
> "If I'm trying to prove a point why on earth should I go down paths to prove there were Muslim leaders that didn't support the Nazis.
> 
> That's stupid. So of course my presentation is going to be one sided. Good grief."
> 
> http://www.usmessageboard.com/6919602-post54.html
> 
> we are in agreement at least with the "Good grief" portion of this discussion.
> 
> are you some sort of octopus? i mean, how many feet do you have left to shoot?
> 
> you are not proving a point. you are pursuing an agenda.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Accusing me of pursuing an agenda and now you have me working with Connery as my team member...
> 
> May I suggest you ask your therapist to up the voltage on your next visit.
> 
> 
> 
> You're nuts.
> 
> But I'll continue laying out the propaganda machine in my next post.
Click to expand...


aw yes. i would think an indication of nuttiness is when you tell connery on this thread that you are going to take a break.

you can lay out what you want. i want evidence that the muslim world supported the nazis, and not evidence that some muslims attempted unsucessfully to indocrinate othe muslims.

i need munbers now, not anacdotal and obscure tidbits.

50% + 1...and i am being extraordinarily generous given the fact that you do not think that 67% of christians does not constitute a a christian belief (support) of papal infallibillity.


----------



## tinydancer

reabhloideach said:


> tinydancer said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> reabhloideach said:
> 
> 
> 
> you continue to cut the islamic world in half.
> 
> sixty seven percent, give or take, of christians believe in, or support, papal infallibility. the reason i asked that question is to get some sort of threshold as to what you consider support when the time comes, or has long past, for you to begin to quantify things.
> 
> Christianity - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> while we are here and as to your claim that you are only trying to show "islam's historical connection with hitler and the nazis" and your denials that you are not trying to show islam's support of the nazis...
> 
> "If I'm trying to prove a point why on earth should I go down paths to prove there were Muslim leaders that didn't support the Nazis.
> 
> That's stupid. So of course my presentation is going to be one sided. Good grief."
> 
> http://www.usmessageboard.com/6919602-post54.html
> 
> we are in agreement at least with the "Good grief" portion of this discussion.
> 
> are you some sort of octopus? i mean, how many feet do you have left to shoot?
> 
> you are not proving a point. you are pursuing an agenda.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Accusing me of pursuing an agenda and now you have me working with Connery as my team member...
> 
> May I suggest you ask your therapist to up the voltage on your next visit.
> 
> 
> 
> You're nuts.
> 
> But I'll continue laying out the propaganda machine in my next post.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> aw yes. i would think an indication of nuttiness is when you tell connery on this thread that you are going to take a break.
> 
> you can lay out what you want. i want evidence that the muslim world supported the nazis, and not evidence that some muslims attempted unsucessfully to indocrinate othe muslims.
> 
> i need munbers now, not anacdotal and obscure tidbits.
> 
> 50% + 1...and i am being extraordinarily generous given the fact that you do not think that 67% of christians does not constitute a a christian belief (support) of papal infallibillity.
Click to expand...


One last time. I don't believe that the Muslim world supported the Nazis. You get nothing from me.

No matter how many times you repeat yourself you can't make it true.


----------



## sealadaigh

tinydancer said:


> reabhloideach said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> tinydancer said:
> 
> 
> 
> Accusing me of pursuing an agenda and now you have me working with Connery as my team member...
> 
> May I suggest you ask your therapist to up the voltage on your next visit.
> 
> 
> 
> You're nuts.
> 
> But I'll continue laying out the propaganda machine in my next post.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> aw yes. i would think an indication of nuttiness is when you tell connery on this thread that you are going to take a break.
> 
> you can lay out what you want. i want evidence that the muslim world supported the nazis, and not evidence that some muslims attempted unsucessfully to indocrinate othe muslims.
> 
> i need munbers now, not anacdotal and obscure tidbits.
> 
> 50% + 1...and i am being extraordinarily generous given the fact that you do not think that 67% of christians does not constitute a a christian belief (support) of papal infallibillity.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> One last time. I don't believe that the Muslim world supported the Nazis. You get nothing from me.
> 
> No matter how many times you repeat yourself you can't make it true.
Click to expand...


you havee managed to not respond to hardly anything i have said, and that incudes the one about  your "support" quote.

i cannot believe, at this point, that anyone is actually stupid enough to believe this "islam's historic connection to hitler and the nazis" is anything but a euphemism for "is;am's support of hitler and the nazis."

the only question you have answered is a question about papal infallibillity, a question i asked to establish some sort of threshold point becaause you have refused to quantify anything.

you have gone so far as to dismiss any analogy or refutation of anything i put forth as poppycock and meaningless, when many of those arguments are exact parrallels of yours.

i am beginning to think you do not even read my posts. you discuss/debate nothing at all. you lecture and are delivering an agenda.


----------



## tinydancer

Seal, please  correct me if I have misinterpreted this comment from your OP. 



> what i will do is explain that al-husseini is a man who had fought for for arab/palestinian nationalism and against european colonialism since long before hitler rose to power and i will point out further that in al-husseini's "relationship" with hitler was based upon, as stated in his memoirs, the concept that "the enemy of your enemy is your friend" and that, as he conveyed to hitler when they met in 1941, that "'The Arabs were Germany's natural friends because they had the same enemies... namely the English, the Jews, and the Communists'.[ it should be noted that "the Jews" he to whom he was referring were the recent european immigrants who were migrating to the region since the balfour letter. i will then suggest you not confuse what you seem to think as some sort of enthsiastic support with a pragmatic indifference.



I took this comment to mean you felt that there was little involvement between the Grand Mufti and Hitler and the Nazis but more of a "we support you Adolph because we both hate Jews". And that you truly hadn't realized how much they were in bed together. 

To back up my assertion that the Grand Mufti, others in exile and the Nazis collaborated to persuade the Muslim world to support them by their massive propaganda campaign are in newly released documents. 

The grand goals of this alliance are laid out quite well. And substantiated. What shocked me when I discovered this data was that they were making out like bandits while in collaboration with the Nazis. They got paid more than a German Field Marshall.

One more time proving how valuable the Nazis believed these men to be. And that has been my contention all along. With all due respect Seal, it doesn't matter if you think the Grand Mufti was a rinky dink cleric.

What counts is what others from that time period thought of the man.  

*Nazis and the Middle East 

New Documentation: Haj Amin al-Husseinis Contract

Recent books have added greatly to our knowledge of Haj Amin al-Husseinis activities as leader of anti-Jewish revolts in the British Mandate in Palestine in 1929 and 1936, as the impetus behind the pro-German coup in Iraq in April 1941, and as a pro-Nazi propagandist in Berlin, broadcasting over German short-wave radio to large audiences in the Middle East starting in late 1941.

CIA and U.S. Army files on Husseini offer small pieces of new evidence about his relationship with the Nazi government and his escape from postwar justice.

The Nazi government financed Husseini and Rashid Ali el-Gailani, the former premier of Iraq who had joined Husseini in Berlin after his failed coup in Iraq. 

After the war Carl Berthold Franz Rekowski, an official of the German Foreign Office who had dealt with Husseini, testified that the Foreign Office financially supported the two Arab leaders, their families, and other Arabs intheir entourage who had fled to Germany after the coup.

 Husseini and Gailani determined how these funds were distributed among the others. The CIA file on Husseini includes a document indicating that he had a staff of 2030 men in
Berlin.

 A separate source indicates that he lived in a villa in the Krumme Lanke neighborhood of Berlin. From spring 1943 to spring 1944, Husseini personally received 50,000 marks monthly and Gailani 65,000 for operational expenses.

 In addition, they each received living expenses averaging 80,000 marks per month,
an absolute fortune. A German field marshal received a base salary of 26,500
marks per year.

Finally, Husseini and Gailani received substantial foreign currency to support adherents living in countries outside German*

http://www.archives.gov/iwg/reports/hitlers-shadow.pdf


----------



## tinydancer

reabhloideach said:


> tinydancer said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> reabhloideach said:
> 
> 
> 
> aw yes. i would think an indication of nuttiness is when you tell connery on this thread that you are going to take a break.
> 
> you can lay out what you want. i want evidence that the muslim world supported the nazis, and not evidence that some muslims attempted unsucessfully to indocrinate othe muslims.
> 
> i need munbers now, not anacdotal and obscure tidbits.
> 
> 50% + 1...and i am being extraordinarily generous given the fact that you do not think that 67% of christians does not constitute a a christian belief (support) of papal infallibillity.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> One last time. I don't believe that the Muslim world supported the Nazis. You get nothing from me.
> 
> No matter how many times you repeat yourself you can't make it true.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> you havee managed to not respond to hardly anything i have said, and that incudes the one about  your "support" quote.
> 
> i cannot believe, at this point, that anyone is actually stupid enough to believe this "islam's historic connection to hitler and the nazis" is anything but a euphemism for "is;am's support of hitler and the nazis."
> 
> the only question you have answered is a question about papal infallibillity, a question i asked to establish some sort of threshold point becaause you have refused to quantify anything.
> 
> you have gone so far as to dismiss any analogy or refutation of anything i put forth as poppycock and meaningless, when many of those arguments are exact parrallels of yours.
> 
> i am beginning to think you do not even read my posts. you discuss/debate nothing at all. you lecture and are delivering an agenda.
Click to expand...


I'll say good night now Seal.

What I find so sad is the automatic assumption by individuals like yourself that to investigate history, to try to find truth in our past about our relationship with the world of Islam means that anyone on that journey must be an enemy of Muslims. 

Pity and how very wrong. See you tomorrow.


----------



## sealadaigh

tinydancer said:


> One of the key things about this alliance between the Nazis and the exiled high ranking Arabs was of course the mutual hatred of the Allies and of Jews.
> 
> The common ground was there. Just needed to come together.
> 
> At the beginning of the war despite the imperial intent on the part of Italy in the middle east, the Nazis were sort of making a feeble effort to use propaganda to win the hearts and minds of the Arab community.
> 
> But nothing really took off in the propaganda division regarding the ME until the successes started mounting with the North African campaigns.
> 
> At the same time, you've got all these high ranking anti colonial exiled politicians showing up in Berlin after al Kilani's coup failure in Iraq.
> 
> The perfect propaganda storm was about to break loose. And on the Arab side of the propaganda machinery was Husseini. He was a gift to Hitler.
> 
> One of the best sources that I've come across is this fabulous book by Jeffrey Herf. Nazi Propaganda for the Arab World.
> 
> It's so well researched.
> 
> From a review:
> 
> *In chapters 4 and 5 Herf charts the takeoff in Nazi-Arab cooperation that occurred with the expansion of Nazi military efforts to North Africa and the emigration to Nazi-dominated Europe of anti-colonial Arab politicians in the aftermath of Rashid Ali al-Kilani's failed coup in Iraq in the spring of 1941.
> 
> Of these émigrés, Haj Amin el-Husseini, the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, was to play a key role in facilitating a Nazi-Arab meeting of hearts and minds that resulted in an enormous German investment in constructing an Arab-exile/Nazi propaganda machine.
> 
> For the next four years, this propaganda machine conducted daily broadcasts and printed millions of leaflets to popularize a hybrid Nazi/Islamist vision of the course and meaning of the war as part of an elaborate conspiracy of "international Jewry" and expound upon the anti-Jewish, anti-Allied political tasks facing the Arab world (p. 170).
> 
> In the following chapters, Herf notes how propaganda and Muslim outreach was a weapon that a dying German imperialism continued to grasp and deploy with increasing ferocity (and even less effect) from 1943 until the end of the war.
> 
> Furthermore, el-Husseini and other Arab exiles stepped up their collaboration with the Nazis by aiding in the creation of SS (Schutzstaffel) units among Balkan Muslims and (less successfully) Allied Muslim POWs (prisoners of war).
> 
> Although Nazi/Arab collaborationist propaganda, unsupported by the aura of Nazi military invincibility, had even less of a direct impact from 1943 onwards, it still alarmed official Anglo-American commentators in the Middle East, who reported on and attempted to track its effects while seeking to develop effective counter-propaganda.
> 
> These Anglo-American efforts both to fathom and influence "the Arab" and his (apparently undifferentiated) responses to Nazi/Arab collaborationist propaganda, particularly its antisemitic virulence, are quite revealing (p. 76).*
> 
> H-Net Reviews



islam is more than arabs.

i want to know, with numbers, what percentage of the islamic world supported the nazis.

to claim that your "historical connection" does not equate to support is a blatant, bald faced lie as you have not mentioned any positive things muslims had done to protect the jews from the nazis...not to mention you have admitted it...

AGAIN!!!

"If I'm trying to prove a point why on earth should I go down paths to prove there were Muslim leaders that didn't support the Nazis.

That's stupid. So of course my presentation is going to be one sided. Good grief."

http://www.usmessageboard.com/6919602-post54.html


fine though. i concede your argument that some small group of muslims under the direction of the nazi propaganda machine, waged a minimal, unsuccessul, and insignificant campaign in an attempt to sway muslims to hitler's side.

and by the same token,lets use lord haw-haw as evidence of britains historical connection (aka support) with the nazis.


----------



## sealadaigh

tinydancer said:


> Jeffrey Herf.




i read a lot of irish history. the most objective irish history book i have ever read, in observation and opinion, was written by an italian.

when people write about their own histories, there is usually an inherent bias.


----------



## tinydancer

reabhloideach said:


> tinydancer said:
> 
> 
> 
> Jeffrey Herf.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> i read a lot of irish history. the most objective irish history book i have ever read, in observation and opinion, was written by an italian.
> 
> when people write about their own histories, there is usually an inherent bias.
Click to expand...


Before we begin tonight, I should let you know I'm half Irish, half Ukrainian. 

I'm a Boone. Top me in another thread. I am the daughter of Daniel Jonathan and the grand daughter of Charles who fought in the American first navy. I still hold his medals. 

My line goes straight up on the Boone's. 

And we are crazy. 



My name is Dana Katherine Boone. In another thread, show me your history, because I'll show you mine girl. 

My Aunt Rena has been at this for decades. Bless her soul.
Prove to me of what you speak. 

Don't pull that shit on me. 

yours, 
td

Meet you at 7 pm. 

And back to the topic.


----------



## tinydancer

I'm here.


----------



## tinydancer

Still waiting. Pardon for the pauses. In the midst of this we are trying to pursue the birth of wonderous pups. Majestics and black and tans.

So despite my passion for this board, I'm trying to work hunt clubs.


----------



## tinydancer

Am here.....


----------



## tinydancer

reabhloideach said:


> tinydancer said:
> 
> 
> 
> One of the key things about this alliance between the Nazis and the exiled high ranking Arabs was of course the mutual hatred of the Allies and of Jews.
> 
> The common ground was there. Just needed to come together.
> 
> At the beginning of the war despite the imperial intent on the part of Italy in the middle east, the Nazis were sort of making a feeble effort to use propaganda to win the hearts and minds of the Arab community.
> 
> But nothing really took off in the propaganda division regarding the ME until the successes started mounting with the North African campaigns.
> 
> At the same time, you've got all these high ranking anti colonial exiled politicians showing up in Berlin after al Kilani's coup failure in Iraq.
> 
> The perfect propaganda storm was about to break loose. And on the Arab side of the propaganda machinery was Husseini. He was a gift to Hitler.
> 
> One of the best sources that I've come across is this fabulous book by Jeffrey Herf. Nazi Propaganda for the Arab World.
> 
> It's so well researched.
> 
> From a review:
> 
> *In chapters 4 and 5 Herf charts the takeoff in Nazi-Arab cooperation that occurred with the expansion of Nazi military efforts to North Africa and the emigration to Nazi-dominated Europe of anti-colonial Arab politicians in the aftermath of Rashid Ali al-Kilani's failed coup in Iraq in the spring of 1941.
> 
> Of these émigrés, Haj Amin el-Husseini, the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, was to play a key role in facilitating a Nazi-Arab meeting of hearts and minds that resulted in an enormous German investment in constructing an Arab-exile/Nazi propaganda machine.
> 
> For the next four years, this propaganda machine conducted daily broadcasts and printed millions of leaflets to popularize a hybrid Nazi/Islamist vision of the course and meaning of the war as part of an elaborate conspiracy of "international Jewry" and expound upon the anti-Jewish, anti-Allied political tasks facing the Arab world (p. 170).
> 
> In the following chapters, Herf notes how propaganda and Muslim outreach was a weapon that a dying German imperialism continued to grasp and deploy with increasing ferocity (and even less effect) from 1943 until the end of the war.
> 
> Furthermore, el-Husseini and other Arab exiles stepped up their collaboration with the Nazis by aiding in the creation of SS (Schutzstaffel) units among Balkan Muslims and (less successfully) Allied Muslim POWs (prisoners of war).
> 
> Although Nazi/Arab collaborationist propaganda, unsupported by the aura of Nazi military invincibility, had even less of a direct impact from 1943 onwards, it still alarmed official Anglo-American commentators in the Middle East, who reported on and attempted to track its effects while seeking to develop effective counter-propaganda.
> 
> These Anglo-American efforts both to fathom and influence "the Arab" and his (apparently undifferentiated) responses to Nazi/Arab collaborationist propaganda, particularly its antisemitic virulence, are quite revealing (p. 76).*
> 
> H-Net Reviews
> 
> 
> 
> 
> islam is more than arabs.
> 
> i want to know, with numbers, what percentage of the islamic world supported the nazis.
> 
> to claim that your "historical connection" does not equate to support is a blatant, bald faced lie as you have not mentioned any positive things muslims had done to protect the jews from the nazis...not to mention you have admitted it...
> 
> AGAIN!!!
> 
> "If I'm trying to prove a point why on earth should I go down paths to prove there were Muslim leaders that didn't support the Nazis.
> 
> That's stupid. So of course my presentation is going to be one sided. Good grief."
> 
> http://www.usmessageboard.com/6919602-post54.html
> 
> 
> fine though. i concede your argument that some small group of muslims under the direction of the nazi propaganda machine, waged a minimal, unsuccessul, and insignificant campaign in an attempt to sway muslims to hitler's side.
> 
> and by the same token,lets use lord haw-haw as evidence of britains historical connection (aka support) with the nazis.
Click to expand...



I'd be thrilled to death if you could show me but one.

By all means.

And if we are talking Morocco, *XXXXXXX*


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## tinydancer

Wrap up your yesterday.

Day three.

I shall begin again.

I will make you wished you died as a child.....

It's just a funny line. don't get upset.....
I couldnt help it guys. Its a line from good morning vietnam.


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## tinydancer

Oh crap. Now she's really going to hate me.


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## tinydancer

So let me get this right Seal.

You don't know how to debate. You only know how to post. Smarmy inaccurate comments with no links and pathetic commentary at best. 

That's fine. 

I've tried to stay lighthearted thru this making idiotic jokes putting up the yap yap, but when it comes down to debate I am fierce.

You are pathetic. 

I'm going to be kind to you. Two days left. I shall continue to dedicate this thread to history. 

Not an interpretation of history. I am so very tired of that. But a true history. I had hoped you would have been a better opponent.

Sadly you are not.


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## tinydancer

You really are too full of yourself to even begin to debate.

I will come back in later to continue to lay my case out that Arab exiles were held as a jewel in Hitlers hands, how he used them, how they loved to be used.

How they deemed to rule the  world together.

Hey they were nutso kookoo bye bye. 

Don't blame me for putting this out there. You have forced my hand.  Pray, pray real hard.

I found a new coach.


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## tinydancer

Style...

I'm worth a 10.


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## tinydancer

A reminder from our administrator

*
Debate will end Sunday, March 10 at 7:30PM Central at which time thread will be closed *

And I'm not done putting forth my side of the debate.


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