# Biden's ATF raids Amish dairy farmer, seizes firearm stash in potential 'rogue gun retailer' bust



## 1srelluc (Jan 28, 2022)

Damn Amish! 

_Two weeks ago, agents from the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives stormed Reuben King's Leacock Township property, seizing an untold number of firearms as part of an ongoing investigation into the farmer's alleged gun retail business.

“ATF agents, as part of an ongoing investigation, executed an enforcement operation at the Cattail Foundry and seized evidence,” on Jan. 12, ATF spokesperson Robert Cucinotta announced Monday, according to Lancaster Online.

So far, no arrests have been made, and no charges have been filed in the case, as the ATF stays mum about the details._

Biden's ATF raids Amish dairy farmer, seizes firearm stash in potential 'rogue gun retailer' bust


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## jackflash (Jan 28, 2022)

The ATF is but one of four federal bureaucracies that need to be terminated in my opinion.


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## strollingbones (Jan 28, 2022)

so everyone can have illegal guns? that is one of the problems with 2nd adm defenders....illegal is illegal be it involving guns or not...


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## McRib (Jan 28, 2022)

jackflash said:


> The ATF is but one of four federal bureaucracies that need to be terminated in my opinion.


Your opinion means nothing.


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## DukeU (Jan 28, 2022)

What is illegal with what he's doing? Nothing......End of story.


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## JackOfNoTrades (Jan 28, 2022)

There's gotta be a joke in here somewhere, I know there is. Weapons proliferation among the Amish. What is this world coming to.


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## Golfing Gator (Jan 28, 2022)

1srelluc said:


> Damn Amish!
> 
> _Two weeks ago, agents from the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives stormed Reuben King's Leacock Township property, seizing an untold number of firearms as part of an ongoing investigation into the farmer's alleged gun retail business.
> 
> ...



This story is likely as true as the one you posted about the Wisconsin Assembly voting to Reclaim Wisconsin’s Electors due to fraud.


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## 1srelluc (Jan 28, 2022)

Golfing Gator said:


> This story is likely as true as the one you posted about the Wisconsin Assembly voting to Reclaim Wisconsin’s Electors due to fraud.


Meh, true or not it got another rise out of you so it's worth it.


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## Golfing Gator (Jan 28, 2022)

1srelluc said:


> Meh, true or not it got another rise out of you so it's worth it.



Oh yeah, this is a rise for sure.


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## Blues Man (Jan 28, 2022)

strollingbones said:


> so everyone can have illegal guns? that is one of the problems with 2nd adm defenders....illegal is illegal be it involving guns or not...


There was nothing mentioned that any of the guns confiscated were "illegal".

Currently there is no requirement for anyone to be licensed to sell guns.  In fact there is no legal definition of what constitutes being a gun retailer.

If the ATF cannot point to any statute that specifies how many guns a person can buy or sell without a FFL then this guy is going to be in the clear.


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## Blues Man (Jan 28, 2022)

Blues Man said:


> There was nothing mentioned that any of the guns confiscated were "illegal".
> 
> Currently there is no requirement for anyone to be licensed to sell guns.  In fact there is no legal definition of what constitutes being a gun retailer other than only an FFL holder can buy directly from manufacturers.
> 
> If the ATF cannot point to any statute that specifies how many guns a person can buy or sell without a FFL then this guy is going to be in the clear.


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## Otis Mayfield (Jan 28, 2022)

$250,000 fine.

Selling guns without a license.


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## marvin martian (Jan 28, 2022)

1srelluc said:


> seizing an untold number of firearms



How much would you bet the "untold number" is less than 20?


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## Mac-7 (Jan 28, 2022)

The ATF is engaging in harrassment


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## miketx (Jan 28, 2022)

Black amish?


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## progressive hunter (Jan 28, 2022)

strollingbones said:


> so everyone can have illegal guns? that is one of the problems with 2nd adm defenders....illegal is illegal be it involving guns or not...


no such thing as an illegal gun,,


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## M14 Shooter (Jan 28, 2022)

strollingbones said:


> so everyone can have illegal guns? that is one of the problems with 2nd adm defenders....illegal is illegal be it involving guns or not...


There are no illegal guns - just illegal possession.
What was illegal about the guns confiscated by the ATF?


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## 1srelluc (Jan 28, 2022)

marvin martian said:


> How much would you bet the "untold number" is less than 20?


There was a guy in my AO years ago that had a 1000+ gun collection confiscated, many historical CW pieces, he got them all back (never charged) but it looked like they tossed them in the back of a dump truck with a half load of gravel and drove them around on twenty miles of washboard road, thousands in damage. Fuck the ATF with a piece of rusty re-bar.


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## Blues Man (Jan 29, 2022)

Otis Mayfield said:


> $250,000 fine.
> 
> Selling guns without a license.


There is no requirement for any licensing to sell firearms.


			https://www.atf.gov/file/100871/download
		


*What activities require a dealer’s license? *_*Federal law does not establish a “bright-line” rule for when a federal firearms license is required. As a result, there is no specific threshold number or frequency of sales, quantity of firearms, or amount of profit or time invested that triggers the licensure requirement.*_


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## Otis Mayfield (Jan 29, 2022)

Blues Man said:


> There is no requirement for any licensing to sell firearms.
> 
> 
> https://www.atf.gov/file/100871/download
> ...



How do they determine a private seller from a dealer?

That's why they're arresting him. They believe he was dealing guns.


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## Blues Man (Jan 29, 2022)

Otis Mayfield said:


> How do they determine a private seller from a dealer?
> 
> That's why they're arresting him. They believe he was dealing guns.


They had no grounds since there is no hard rule that defines how many gun sales are needed to reach the threshold of being a dealer.

If there is no line to cross then there is no crime.


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## Blues Man (Jan 29, 2022)

Otis Mayfield said:


> How do they determine a private seller from a dealer?
> 
> That's why they're arresting him. They believe he was dealing guns.


There are hard fast rules on the limits for private alcohol production.





__





						Home Manufacture of Alcohol State Statutes
					





					www.ncsl.org
				




_n 1978, Congress enacted Public Law 95-458 (H.R. 1337), amending the Internal Revenue Code to allow any adult to produce beer, without the payment of tax, for personal or family use. The beer produced per household may not exceed: (1) 200 gallons per calendar year if there are two or more adults residing in the household, or (2) 100 gallons per calendar year if there is only one adult residing in the household. Under the 27 C.F.R. §25.206, homemade beer for personal or family use may be removed from the premises where made for organized affairs, exhibitions or competitions such as homemaker's contests, tastings or judging. Under 27 C.F.R. 24.75, adults may produce wine for personal or family use in the same amount as allowed for beer._

This is  an easily enforced rule because it is clearly stated.

It would be a simple matter to have the same clearly written rule for private gun sales.  But where there is ambiguity in the law the accused is the one who is given the benefit of the doubt because an ambiguous law cannot be enforced in a fear and just manner.


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## miketx (Jan 29, 2022)

strollingbones said:


> so everyone can have illegal guns? that is one of the problems with 2nd adm defenders....illegal is illegal be it involving guns or not...


Lol, just make up some shit, good little jack boot.


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## Otis Mayfield (Jan 29, 2022)

Blues Man said:


> They had no grounds since there is no hard rule that defines how many gun sales are needed to reach the threshold of being a dealer.
> 
> If there is no line to cross then there is no crime.



If you sell a hundred guns a month, you're obviously a dealer.

If you sell 20, maybe.


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## Blues Man (Jan 29, 2022)

Otis Mayfield said:


> If you sell a hundred guns a month, you're obviously a dealer.
> 
> If you sell 20, maybe.


And where in the law does it say that?  Nowhere.

So this guy didn;t break any laws


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## Otis Mayfield (Jan 29, 2022)

Blues Man said:


> And where in the law does it say that?  Nowhere.
> 
> So this guy didn;t break any laws











						How many guns can i sell before a FFL is needed?
					

Title says it all How many guns can I buy and sell before I would need to get a ffl?




					www.defensivecarry.com
				




These guys say it's "intent."

So, if you sell 100 guns a month, you intend to make a profit and it's a business which makes you a dealer.

I guess it comes down to what the judge says.


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## Blues Man (Jan 30, 2022)

Otis Mayfield said:


> How many guns can i sell before a FFL is needed?
> 
> 
> Title says it all How many guns can I buy and sell before I would need to get a ffl?
> ...


And yet the law does not have a definition or a hard limit of guns that needs to be sold.


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## Wild Bill Kelsoe (Feb 1, 2022)

strollingbones said:


> so everyone can have illegal guns? that is one of the problems with 2nd adm defenders....illegal is illegal be it involving guns or not...


Constitutionally there's no such thing as an illegal gun.  Gun control laws are illegal.  Illegal laws are illegal, no matter how you justify them.


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## Colin norris (Feb 3, 2022)

jackflash said:


> The ATF is but one of four federal bureaucracies that need to be terminated in my opinion.


Why? Because they exposed a bunch of nut cases  hiding guns? I hope it's you next.


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## woodwork201 (Feb 9, 2022)

I've thought about selling my collection in another 10 years or so.  None of my kids are in a position in life to give them the proper respect, appreciation, and protection.  They're all good kids but aren't politically astute - my failure.

I don't have 600 guns but I have more than the 6 that one of the leftists here attributed to Rambo-types (I'm not one as clearly demonstrated by my more-than-6 guns).  

I wonder if I risk spending years in prison for selling my own collection.  Maybe, when the time comes, I'll just give them away to a local gun club for use in fundraisers.


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## woodwork201 (Feb 9, 2022)

M14 Shooter said:


> There are no illegal guns - just illegal possession.
> What was illegal about the guns confiscated by the ATF?



How is that possible - one of the two statements true and the other false?


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## westwall (Feb 9, 2022)

Blues Man said:


> There was nothing mentioned that any of the guns confiscated were "illegal".
> 
> Currently there is no requirement for anyone to be licensed to sell guns.  In fact there is no legal definition of what constitutes being a gun retailer.
> 
> If the ATF cannot point to any statute that specifies how many guns a person can buy or sell without a FFL then this guy is going to be in the clear.





That is not true.  If you are actively buying and selling guns you need to have a Federal Firearms License.  If you sell the occasional gun, 2 or 3 a year, you don't. 

Any more than that though and you must obtain a license.


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## Bob Blaylock (Feb 9, 2022)

jackflash said:


> The ATF is but one of four federal bureaucracies that need to be terminated in my opinion.



  ATF = Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms.

  The very name contains three reasons why this agencies very existence is illegal and unconstitutional.

  Per the Tenth Amendment, the federal government only has those powers which the Constitution specifically delegates thereto.

  Briefly, alcohol fell under federal powers, with the passage of the Eighteenth Amendment.  The Twenty-First Amendment ended this, so now, the federals government has no legitimate jurisdiction regarding alcohol.

  The federal government has never had any legitimate jurisdiction regrading tobacco.

  And the Second Amendment explicitly denies any such power regarding firearms.

  The BATF exists for no other purpose than to violate the Constitution.


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## Blues Man (Feb 9, 2022)

westwall said:


> That is not true.  If you are actively buying and selling guns you need to have a Federal Firearms License.  If you sell the occasional gun, 2 or 3 a year, you don't.
> 
> Any more than that though and you must obtain a license.


There is no legal definition of how many guns one must buy and sell to be considered a dealer. 

There is no definition of how much profit is needed to say if you are selling guns for profit.

Legal ambiguity always favors the accused.


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## Bootney Lee Farnsworth (Feb 9, 2022)

States need to take back the 2A and declare machine guns legal.


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## westwall (Feb 9, 2022)

Blues Man said:


> There is no legal definition of how many guns one must buy and sell to be considered a dealer.
> 
> There is no definition of how much profit is needed to say if you are selling guns for profit.
> 
> Legal ambiguity always favors the accused.





That is true, but go to a bunch of gun shows and buy and sell and you will see how quick they stop by to tell you to get a  license.


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## C_Clayton_Jones (Feb 9, 2022)

1srelluc said:


> Damn Amish!
> 
> _Two weeks ago, agents from the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives stormed Reuben King's Leacock Township property, seizing an untold number of firearms as part of an ongoing investigation into the farmer's alleged gun retail business.
> 
> ...


Unreliable rightwing source.


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## hadit (Feb 9, 2022)

Otis Mayfield said:


> If you sell a hundred guns a month, you're obviously a dealer.
> 
> If you sell 20, maybe.


And "maybe" is the problem. If the law isn't written clearly, it gets tossed, as we saw in the Rittenhouse case where they couldn't agree if him having the gun was illegal or not.


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## M14 Shooter (Feb 9, 2022)

C_Clayton_Jones said:


> Unreliable rightwing source.


^^^^
Well-known left-wing liar.


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## RetiredGySgt (Feb 9, 2022)

Bootney Lee Farnsworth said:


> States need to take back the 2A and declare machine guns legal.


Machine guns are legal in all but 17 states.


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## Bootney Lee Farnsworth (Feb 9, 2022)

RetiredGySgt said:


> Machine guns are legal in all but 17 states.


So is pot.

It needs to be legal to sell in all 50 states, regardless of fake federal law.


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## RetiredGySgt (Feb 9, 2022)

Bootney Lee Farnsworth said:


> So is pot.
> 
> It needs to be legal to sell in all 50 states, regardless of fake federal law.


federal law doesnt make it illegal anywhere those states made it illegal


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## Shawnee_b (Feb 9, 2022)

Blues Man said:


> They had no grounds since there is no hard rule that defines how many gun sales are needed to reach the threshold of being a dealer.
> 
> If there is no line to cross then there is no crime.


I was a licensed dealer over two decades. How ATF distinguishes between private and a dealer is a simple thing they oft charge people with. "ENGAGED IN THE BUSINESS without a license" *There has never been a set number.* It can be 1, 12 whatever, just remember, it is at their total discretion. If they/ATF feel you are "engaged in the business" your had.


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## woodwork201 (Feb 10, 2022)

westwall said:


> That is not true.  If you are actively buying and selling guns you need to have a Federal Firearms License.  If you sell the occasional gun, 2 or 3 a year, you don't.
> 
> Any more than that though and you must obtain a license.



Please document where you get those numbers because the laws and the regulations don't provide them.   Any use of those numbers or other numbers by the BATFE is purely arbitrary and, very likely, politically based.  They key is are you in the business of buying and selling.  

Probably turnaround time has more to do with it than numbers though both might be considered.


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## westwall (Feb 10, 2022)

woodwork201 said:


> Please document where you get those numbers because the laws and the regulations don't provide them.   Any use of those numbers or other numbers by the BATFE is purely arbitrary and, very likely, politically based.  They key is are you in the business of buying and selling.
> 
> Probably turnaround time has more to do with it than numbers though both might be considered.




I never said they did.  They are ATF rules.  A friend of mine who does a lot of gun shows had a visit from them.

Now he doesn't sell any longer.


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## fncceo (Feb 10, 2022)

strollingbones said:


> illegal is illegal be it involving guns or not...



There was a time when it was illegal to drink alcohol.  There was a time when it was illegal to be gay.  There was a time when it was illegal to receive an abortion. 

Laws change with the times.  Many 'laws' concerning the regulation of firearms have no business in a free, Constitutional society. 

Those laws need to be repealled.


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## woodwork201 (Feb 10, 2022)

westwall said:


> I never said they did.  They are ATF rules.  A friend of mine who does a lot of gun shows had a visit from them.
> 
> Now he doesn't sell any longer.


ATF rules are all public.  Please post a link to the rule.


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## Blues Man (Feb 10, 2022)

westwall said:


> That is true, but go to a bunch of gun shows and buy and sell and you will see how quick they stop by to tell you to get a  license.


There is no legal definition that spells out what a gun dealer is.


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## Blues Man (Feb 10, 2022)

Shawnee_b said:


> I was a licensed dealer over two decades. How ATF distinguishes between private and a dealer is a simple thing they oft charge people with. "ENGAGED IN THE BUSINESS without a license" *There has never been a set number.* It can be 1, 12 whatever, just remember, it is at their total discretion. If they/ATF feel you are "engaged in the business" your had.


Ambiguous laws are always ruled in the accused favor.

If one guy sells 10 guns with no problems from the ATF but a guy who sell 9 gets arrested then the charges will not stick.


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## westwall (Feb 10, 2022)

Blues Man said:


> There is no legal definition that spells out what a gun dealer is.





I agree, however the ATF lives by a book of rules.  Not laws, but rules.  They will charge you with a crime, and then you will have to defend yourself.  You probably will win, but then you are out tens of thousands.

Most people don't have that kind of money just laying around.


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## RetiredGySgt (Feb 10, 2022)

westwall said:


> I agree, however the ATF lives by a book of rules.  Not laws, but rules.  They will charge you with a crime, and then you will have to defend yourself.  You probably will win, but then you are out tens of thousands.
> 
> Most people don't have that kind of money just laying around.


Yup same with confiscated firearms they wont return them forcing you to go to court.


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## woodwork201 (Feb 10, 2022)

Blues Man said:


> Ambiguous laws are always ruled in the accused favor.
> 
> If one guy sells 10 guns with no problems from the ATF but a guy who sell 9 gets arrested then the charges will not stick.



It won't stick, assuming that the guy has the resources to potentially go to the Supreme Court.  Many who cannot afford the very best legal representation would go to prison.


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## woodwork201 (Feb 10, 2022)

westwall said:


> I agree, however the ATF lives by a book of rules.  Not laws, but rules.  They will charge you with a crime, and then you will have to defend yourself.  You probably will win, but then you are out tens of thousands.
> 
> Most people don't have that kind of money just laying around.



Once again, you're wrong.  The problem in this story is that the BATFE does NOT live by a book of rules.  Rules are made up on the fly, created retroactively, and applied arbitrarily.  If they lived by a book of rules we could all get that book and you could produce it to back up your statements about numbers.

This is what, I think, Blues Man is trying to explain: because the law is so vague, sellers cannot know exactly what and when the BATFE will be triggered and they are triggered inconsistently.  In many Supreme Court cases for vague laws, the laws are thrown out because it can't be reliably complied with.


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## HenryBHough (Feb 10, 2022)

Amish are to Xiden as Jews were to Hitler.  First they came for........


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## westwall (Feb 10, 2022)

woodwork201 said:


> Once again, you're wrong.  The problem in this story is that the BATFE does NOT live by a book of rules.  Rules are made up on the fly, created retroactively, and applied arbitrarily.  If they lived by a book of rules we could all get that book and you could produce it to back up your statements about numbers.
> 
> This is what, I think, Blues Man is trying to explain: because the law is so vague, sellers cannot know exactly what and when the BATFE will be triggered and they are triggered inconsistently.  In many Supreme Court cases for vague laws, the laws are thrown out because it can't be reliably complied with.






I agree with everything you have said, but the reality is the ATF targets people all of the time.  They charge you with a crime, and you have to defend yourself to the tune of thousands of dollars.  They have been doing this for DECADES.


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## woodwork201 (Feb 10, 2022)

westwall said:


> I agree with everything you have said, but the reality is the ATF targets people all of the time.  They charge you with a crime, and you have to defend yourself to the tune of thousands of dollars.  They have been doing this for DECADES.


Now we're in agreement!   That's good.

Can we also agree that there's no 3 gun rule or any other published number that triggers a requirement to get an FFL to sell guns?


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## westwall (Feb 10, 2022)

woodwork201 said:


> Now we're in agreement!   That's good.
> 
> Can we also agree that there's no 3 gun rule or any other published number that triggers a requirement to get an FFL to sell guns?





There is no limit, but the ATF agents that visited my friend said that unless he was holding the guns for a year, they were considered inventory.

They told him 2 to 3 guns a year is fine.  You feel free to buy and sell up a storm!  Just have a good amount of cash set aside for your lawyer.


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## Blues Man (Feb 11, 2022)

woodwork201 said:


> It won't stick, assuming that the guy has the resources to potentially go to the Supreme Court.  Many who cannot afford the very best legal representation would go to prison.


irrelevant.


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## woodwork201 (Feb 11, 2022)

westwall said:


> There is no limit, but the ATF agents that visited my friend said that unless he was holding the guns for a year, they were considered inventory.
> 
> They told him 2 to 3 guns a year is fine.  You feel free to buy and sell up a storm!  Just have a good amount of cash set aside for your lawyer.



So there's no book.  And it's not 3 guns.  We could have saved a lot of post count had you just told it that way from the beginning; you'd probably just got a lot of thanks count.


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## woodwork201 (Feb 11, 2022)

Blues Man said:


> irrelevant.


Tell that to Bubba.   You're absolutely right about the law and about the precedence but it is relevant that vague laws get people locked up. 

People should always consider the risk and make the decisions and fight the battles they choose to fight.  Just know the risks when you enter the battle.


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## westwall (Feb 11, 2022)

woodwork201 said:


> So there's no book.  And it's not 3 guns.  We could have saved a lot of post count had you just told it that way from the beginning; you'd probably just got a lot of thanks count.





Two or three.  Read what I said.  Most of what ATF does is based on their internal rulebook.  Not law.


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