# No veils in France



## tigerbob

> At least two women have been detained in France while wearing Islamic veils across their faces, after a law banning the garment in public came into force.
> 
> Police said they were held not because of their veils but for joining an unauthorised protest against the ban.
> 
> France is the first country in Europe to publicly ban a form of dress some Muslims regard as a religious duty.
> 
> Anyone caught breaking the law will be liable to a fine of 150 euros (£133; $217) and a citizenship course.
> 
> People forcing women to wear the veil face a much larger fine and a prison sentence of up to two years.
> 
> It was not clear whether the women detained at the protest would also be fined for their veils.
> 
> BBC News - Women in face veils detained as France enforces ban



Being required to remove a veil in an area where security / identification is an issue (like airports) is reasonable enough, but being banned from wearing it in a public park seems a bit draconian.


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## Blagger

tigerbob said:


> At least two women have been detained in France while wearing Islamic veils across their faces, after a law banning the garment in public came into force.
> 
> Police said they were held not because of their veils but for joining an unauthorised protest against the ban.
> 
> France is the first country in Europe to publicly ban a form of dress some Muslims regard as a religious duty.
> 
> Anyone caught breaking the law will be liable to a fine of 150 euros (£133; $217) and a citizenship course.
> 
> People forcing women to wear the veil face a much larger fine and a prison sentence of up to two years.
> 
> It was not clear whether the women detained at the protest would also be fined for their veils.
> 
> BBC News - Women in face veils detained as France enforces ban
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Being required to remove a veil in an area where security / identification is an issue (like airports) is reasonable enough, but being banned from wearing it in a public park seems a bit draconian.
Click to expand...


No, I'm sorry, but I don't subscribe to the school of thought that argues that cultural integration means that incoming cultures can pick, choose and manipulate how they behave in a host country. What they do in their homes is their business, as long as it doesn't have a negative or intrusive impact on their neighbours. As far as I'm concerned, muslims in Europe can pray in whichever direction they wish, practice whatever their faith demands (within the law of their host nation) and eat food prepared in a way that is permitted/endorsed by their faith. But as soon as they step out in public, they are subject to the laws and overall culture of the country they're in. France has passed laws that stipulate that citizens are not allowed to go about in public with their face covered, and its citizens are legally bound to comply. Apart from its outlawing being a necessity in these more fractured times, in western society it's grossly impolite to go about in public with your face completely covered. If I were in a muslim country, which I have been, I would respect local customs, and have done. End Of.

Say what you like about France's supposedly deserved reputation for capitulation, but they're currently the only country in western Europe that is actively taking measures to curb islamic influence to the extent that it's checking the expanding influence of a religion that fundamentally clashes with the society it's attempting to impose itself on. I sincerely hope that Cameron and Merkel are watching today's events in France with interest.


P.s. I feel compelled to declare that I vehemently oppose the wearing of the full burka in public. It has no place in western society, and is in no way shape or form a religious requirement stated by the Qur'an.


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## Sunni Man

Swagger said:


> P.s. I feel compelled to declare that I vehemently oppose the wearing of the full burka in public. It has no place in western society, and is in no way shape or form a religious requirement stated by the Qur'an.



You are correct.

The burka is a cultural piece of clothing and is not Islamic or mandated by the Quran.

The veil has some basis in the Hadith for those who choose to wear it.

But in no way is the veil a required for Muslim women.


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## manifold

tigerbob said:


> being banned from wearing it in a public park seems a bit draconian.



draconian? 

hyperbole much?


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## ekrem

Swagger said:


> Apart from it's outlawing being a necessity in these more fractured times, in western society it's grossly impolite to go about in public with your face completly covered. If I were in a muslim country, which I have been, I would respect local customs, and have done. End Of.



There were regional elections (Département) in France in last week of March.
It was last election before presidential elections in next year. 

Socialists got 36.2 %
Sarkozy got 18.6 %
LePen got 11.1 %
Kantonalwahlen in Frankreich: Sarkozys Partei erleidet schwere Pleite - SPIEGEL ONLINE - Nachrichten - Politik

As it now stands, France will be ruled by a Socialist President next year and LePen is developing into a competition who achieves to steal votes from Sarkozy.

Ipsos-polling  says, that Sarkozy will loose against LePen in 1st presidential run-off election and that LePen will be the candidate to run against the Socialist Candidate.
Nicolas Sarkozys Gegner heißt Marine Le Pen
It is the 4th consecutive election poll  by different polling-companies who predict, that Sarkozy will loose.


*Burka issue*
Women in France who wear a burka are counted as 1.900 according to French Domestic Ministry. To another study they only count 376 women.
It's just a political maneuver to placate the rise of right in France. 
The Roma also had to experience this.


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## ekrem

> The UMP is suffering its lowest ever ratings, with predictions for the 2012 election placing Sarkozy behind both the socialist candidate (yet to be decided) and Marine Le Pen, leader of the far-right National Front (FN).
> 
> From Sarkozys point of view, he probably thinks things cant get any worse, social and political researcher on France, Matthew Moran from Kings College London told FRANCE 24. Its likely hes hoping that appealing to far-right voters will give him the boost he needs.


FRANCE 24 - PM, party officials boycott Sarkozy&#039;s Islam debate




> The president is hunting on the extreme right margins, says Pierre Haski, editor of Rue 89, an online daily and weekly magazine. The debate over Islam is not interesting. It is a gimmick to show to National Front voters they can vote UMP.


France's Sarkozy faces rifts on Islam debate - CSMonitor.com

Cheap politics. 
Sarkozy is an attention-whore (Bruni) and will do whatever it takes to stay President, even if that means to bomb countries like Libya.

Having almost 6 Million Muslims coming from Maghreb, Sarkozy bombs N.Africa.
What a far-sighted politician.


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## Jos




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## Sunni Man

ekrem said:


> *Burka issue*
> Women in France who wear a burka are counted as 1.900 according to French Domestic Ministry. To another study they only count 376 women.
> It's just a political maneuver to placate the rise of right in France.
> The Roma also had to experience this.



The French government claims that it is a security issue.

Yet, not one single felony related crime has ever been committed by a woman wearing a burka in France.


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## tigerbob

Swagger said:


> tigerbob said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> At least two women have been detained in France while wearing Islamic veils across their faces, after a law banning the garment in public came into force.
> 
> Police said they were held not because of their veils but for joining an unauthorised protest against the ban.
> 
> France is the first country in Europe to publicly ban a form of dress some Muslims regard as a religious duty.
> 
> Anyone caught breaking the law will be liable to a fine of 150 euros (£133; $217) and a citizenship course.
> 
> People forcing women to wear the veil face a much larger fine and a prison sentence of up to two years.
> 
> It was not clear whether the women detained at the protest would also be fined for their veils.
> 
> BBC News - Women in face veils detained as France enforces ban
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Being required to remove a veil in an area where security / identification is an issue (like airports) is reasonable enough, but being banned from wearing it in a public park seems a bit draconian.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No, I'm sorry, but I don't subscribe to the school of thought that argues that cultural integration means that incoming cultures can pick, choose and manipulate how they behave in a host country. What they do in their homes is their business, as long as it doesn't have a negative or intrusive impact on their neighbours. As far as I'm concerned, muslims in Europe can pray in whichever direction they wish, practice whatever their faith demands (within the law of their host nation) and eat food prepared in a way that is permitted/endorsed by their faith. But as soon as they step out in public, they are subject to the laws and overall culture of the country they're in. France has passed laws that stipulate that citizens are not allowed to go about in public with their face covered, and its citizens are legally bound to comply. Apart from its outlawing being a necessity in these more fractured times, in western society it's grossly impolite to go about in public with your face completely covered. If I were in a muslim country, which I have been, I would respect local customs, and have done. End Of.
> 
> Say what you like about France's supposedly deserved reputation for capitulation, but they're currently the only country in western Europe that is actively taking measures to curb islamic influence to the extent that it's checking the expanding influence of a religion that fundamentally clashes with the society it's attempting to impose itself on. I sincerely hope that Cameron and Merkel are watching today's events in France with interest.
> 
> 
> P.s. I feel compelled to declare that I vehemently oppose the wearing of the full burka in public. It has no place in western society, and is in no way shape or form a religious requirement stated by the Qur'an.
Click to expand...


Interesting observations, and if I tried responding to it I'd probably end up in a wide ranging discussion about something for which I have only a passing interest, so I'm going to leave it alone.  

Suffice to say that if we did discuss it, you would quite possibly find I'm not so far away from your position as you appear to think I am.


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## tigerbob

manifold said:


> tigerbob said:
> 
> 
> 
> being banned from wearing it in a public park seems a bit draconian.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> draconian?
> 
> hyperbole much?
Click to expand...


sentence much?


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## tigerbob

Sunni Man said:


> ekrem said:
> 
> 
> 
> *Burka issue*
> Women in France who wear a burka are counted as 1.900 according to French Domestic Ministry. To another study they only count 376 women.
> It's just a political maneuver to placate the rise of right in France.
> The Roma also had to experience this.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The French government claims that it is a security issue.
> 
> Yet, not one single felony related crime has ever been committed by a woman wearing a burka in France.
Click to expand...


Hence my earlier hyperbole.


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## Grace

tigerbob said:


> manifold said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> tigerbob said:
> 
> 
> 
> being banned from wearing it in a public park seems a bit draconian.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> draconian?
> 
> hyperbole much?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> sentence much?
Click to expand...


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## manifold

tigerbob said:


> manifold said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> tigerbob said:
> 
> 
> 
> being banned from wearing it in a public park seems a bit draconian.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> draconian?
> 
> hyperbole much?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> sentence much?
Click to expand...




Still not a rebuttal though.


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## Si modo

tigerbob said:


> At least two women have been detained in France while wearing Islamic veils across their faces, after a law banning the garment in public came into force.
> 
> Police said they were held not because of their veils but for joining an unauthorised protest against the ban.
> 
> France is the first country in Europe to publicly ban a form of dress some Muslims regard as a religious duty.
> 
> Anyone caught breaking the law will be liable to a fine of 150 euros (£133; $217) and a citizenship course.
> 
> People forcing women to wear the veil face a much larger fine and a prison sentence of up to two years.
> 
> It was not clear whether the women detained at the protest would also be fined for their veils.
> 
> BBC News - Women in face veils detained as France enforces ban
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Being required to remove a veil in an area where security / identification is an issue (like airports) is reasonable enough, but being banned from wearing it in a public park seems a bit draconian.
Click to expand...

Not only that, but banning a protest in a public about it?


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## RetiredGySgt

Sunni Man said:


> ekrem said:
> 
> 
> 
> *Burka issue*
> Women in France who wear a burka are counted as 1.900 according to French Domestic Ministry. To another study they only count 376 women.
> It's just a political maneuver to placate the rise of right in France.
> The Roma also had to experience this.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The French government claims that it is a security issue.
> 
> Yet, not one single felony related crime has ever been committed by a woman wearing a burka in France.
Click to expand...


Except for Muslim women, in the US in most locals it is ILLEGAL to wear a mask covering your face with out a legal or medical requirement. Exception being Halloween.


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## Si modo

RetiredGySgt said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ekrem said:
> 
> 
> 
> *Burka issue*
> Women in France who wear a burka are counted as 1.900 according to French Domestic Ministry. To another study they only count 376 women.
> It's just a political maneuver to placate the rise of right in France.
> The Roma also had to experience this.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The French government claims that it is a security issue.
> 
> Yet, not one single felony related crime has ever been committed by a woman wearing a burka in France.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Except for Muslim women, in the US in most locals it is ILLEGAL to wear a mask covering your face with out a legal or medical requirement. Exception being Halloween.
Click to expand...

Not necessarily.  If the intent of covering one's face is to intimidate another and/or conceal one's identity in the commission of a crime or intimidation. that's true.  I doubt that was the reason the women covered their faces.  I'm pretty sure their reason was for cultural/religious reasons.  That's allowed in most states here, likely all.

http://www.anapsid.org/cnd/mcs/maskcodes.html


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## Sunni Man

RetiredGySgt said:


> Except for Muslim women, in the US in most locals it is ILLEGAL to wear a mask covering your face with out a legal or medical requirement. Exception being Halloween.



A veil is not a mask.


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## manifold

Sunni Man said:


> RetiredGySgt said:
> 
> 
> 
> Except for Muslim women, in the US in most locals it is ILLEGAL to wear a mask covering your face with out a legal or medical requirement. Exception being Halloween.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A veil is not a mask.
Click to expand...


Yes it is.


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## manifold

Few people seem to have any problem with 'draconian' laws that require certain body parts remain covered in public. So what is so offensive about a law that requires certain body parts remain uncovered in public?


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## Sunni Man

manifold said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> RetiredGySgt said:
> 
> 
> 
> Except for Muslim women, in the US in most locals it is ILLEGAL to wear a mask covering your face with out a legal or medical requirement. Exception being Halloween.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A veil is not a mask.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yes it is.
Click to expand...

No, it's a veil.

That's why the English language has two different words.

To describe to different items.


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## Si modo

Sunni Man said:


> manifold said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> 
> A veil is not a mask.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes it is.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> No, it's a veil.
> 
> That's why the English language has two different words.
> 
> To describe to different items.
Click to expand...

If it covers her face, it's a mask, when applying the law, Sunni.

Same in France, thus the phrase "across their faces" in the first sentence of the article.


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## manifold

Sunni Man said:


> manifold said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> 
> A veil is not a mask.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes it is.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> No, it's a veil.
> 
> That's why the English language has two different words.
> 
> To describe to different items.
Click to expand...


Saying a veil isn't a mask is like saying it's not TV, it's HBO.

All veils are masks
Not all masks are veils

That's the difference skippy. Now you know.


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## Si modo

manifold said:


> Few people seem to have any problem with 'draconian' laws that require certain body parts remain covered in public. So what is so offensive about a law that requires certain body parts remain uncovered in public?


That's an interesting point.  We all know that there are 'decency' laws.

If I look at this as a freedom of expression issue, who is to say that someone who wants to expose certain body parts in public is not just expressing themselves?  Then, I can argue that if someone with 'intestinal issues' likes to go bare-heinied in public, I really don't want to sit on the park bench they just sat on.  The public health issue of all who use that bench outweighs the freedom of their expression.  I don't think anyone has to prove that is a real public safety/health issue - 'intestinal issues' can happen to anyone and anyone can sit on a public seat.

Same argument here - if the there is a real public safety issue with covering one's face for cultural/religious reasons, then I can see that.  I'm not so sure the public safety issue is real, unless it's clear that the intent is to conceal identity to intimidate or commit a crime.


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## Sunni Man

manifold said:


> Saying a veil isn't a mask is like saying it's not TV, it's HBO.
> 
> All veils are masks
> Not all masks are veils
> 
> That's the difference skippy. Now you know.


Now I know that you don't have a clue as to what you are talking about.

TV is an physical object.

HBO is a video service company.

Now you know Skippy.


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## hipeter924

I think the government has no right to your body, what you wear on it is your business, and if you don't want to wear anything that's up to you, businesses and institutions still hold the right to refuse entry. Essentially the Burka means different things to different people, to some Arab women it is a mark of decency, to some western leaning Arabs its a mark of slavery and submission. 

PS: If we are to start banning veils, why not bad fashion statements, there are are worse signs of slavery and submission than the veil, how about company and school uniforms?


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## tigerbob

manifold said:


> tigerbob said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> manifold said:
> 
> 
> 
> draconian?
> 
> hyperbole much?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sentence much?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Still not a rebuttal though.
Click to expand...


Seriously Mani?  You were actually expecting a rebuttal over that one word?

OK, if your argument is with that one, specific word, try 'severe' instead.


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## xsited1

tigerbob said:


> No veils in France



Why don't they ban underarm body hair for French women while they're at it?


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## tigerbob

Sunni Man said:


> RetiredGySgt said:
> 
> 
> 
> Except for Muslim women, in the US in most locals it is ILLEGAL to wear a mask covering your face with out a legal or medical requirement. Exception being Halloween.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A veil is not a mask.
Click to expand...


I agree there is a distinction, but isn't that a bit pedantic?  The reasons for wearing them may be different, but both are intended to cover the face.


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## tigerbob

manifold said:


> Few people seem to have any problem with 'draconian' laws that require certain body parts remain covered in public. So what is so offensive about a law that requires certain body parts remain uncovered in public?



But you're basically talking about cultural distinctions.  Sunbathe topless in most of Europe and nobody will bat an eye.  Sunbathe topless in most of North America and you'll be at least asked to cover up.

If there is a security reason for asking a person to remove a veil (such as in an airport) then that clearly overrides cultural norms.  But legislating that nobody can have their face covered anywhere in public seems over-officious.


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## Jos

Will this new law apply to Brides veils too?


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## tigerbob

Jos said:


> Will this new law apply to Brides veils too?



Presumably so, but only if she insists on wearing it in public at all times indefinitely.


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## Colin

Sunni Man said:


> ekrem said:
> 
> 
> 
> *Burka issue*
> Women in France who wear a burka are counted as 1.900 according to French Domestic Ministry. To another study they only count 376 women.
> It's just a political maneuver to placate the rise of right in France.
> The Roma also had to experience this.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The French government claims that it is a security issue.
> 
> Yet, not one single felony related crime has ever been committed by a woman wearing a burka in France.
Click to expand...


Of course it's a security risk. In 2006 in Britain, a muslim terrorist evaded arrest by wearing a burka. Had it been against the law to cover one's face in this way, it would never have happened.



> A MALE suspect in a major anti-terrorist investigation in Britain escaped capture by allegedly disguising himself as a Muslim woman dressed in a burka, The Times can reveal.
> The man, who was wanted in connection with serious terrorist offences, evaded arrest for several days as police searched for him across the country.
> 
> The fact that a fugitive remained at large after disguising himself in an Islamic dress which covered his face will further fuel the debate sparked by Jack Straw, Leader of the House of Commons, about the wearing of the veil.
> 
> Details of the mans true identity were circulated to ports and airports to try to prevent him leaving the country.
> 
> Suspect in terror hunt used veil to evade arrest - Times Online



Good on the French. It's a pity our politicians have no balls!


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## del

RetiredGySgt said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ekrem said:
> 
> 
> 
> *Burka issue*
> Women in France who wear a burka are counted as 1.900 according to French Domestic Ministry. To another study they only count 376 women.
> It's just a political maneuver to placate the rise of right in France.
> The Roma also had to experience this.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The French government claims that it is a security issue.
> 
> Yet, not one single felony related crime has ever been committed by a woman wearing a burka in France.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Except for Muslim women, in the US in most locals it is ILLEGAL to wear a mask covering your face with out a legal or medical requirement. Exception being Halloween.
Click to expand...


bullshit


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## Anguille

tigerbob said:


> manifold said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> tigerbob said:
> 
> 
> 
> being banned from wearing it in a public park seems a bit draconian.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> draconian?
> 
> hyperbole much?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> sentence much?
Click to expand...


Oh yeah!  And then some!!!!!!!


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## Anguille

Colin said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ekrem said:
> 
> 
> 
> *Burka issue*
> Women in France who wear a burka are counted as 1.900 according to French Domestic Ministry. To another study they only count 376 women.
> It's just a political maneuver to placate the rise of right in France.
> The Roma also had to experience this.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The French government claims that it is a security issue.
> 
> Yet, not one single felony related crime has ever been committed by a woman wearing a burka in France.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Of course it's a security risk. In 2006 in Britain, a muslim terrorist evaded arrest by wearing a burka. Had it been against the law to cover one's face in this way, it would never have happened.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A MALE suspect in a major anti-terrorist investigation in Britain escaped capture by allegedly disguising himself as a Muslim woman dressed in a burka, The Times can reveal.
> The man, who was wanted in connection with serious terrorist offences, evaded arrest for several days as police searched for him across the country.
> 
> The fact that a fugitive remained at large after disguising himself in an Islamic dress which covered his face will further fuel the debate sparked by Jack Straw, Leader of the House of Commons, about the wearing of the veil.
> 
> Details of the mans true identity were circulated to ports and airports to try to prevent him leaving the country.
> 
> Suspect in terror hunt used veil to evade arrest - Times Online
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Good on the French. It's a pity our politicians have no balls!
Click to expand...


Please!   It's Sarko who has no balls. Nor anyone else who thinks fighting over what women can or cannot wear is in some way addressing any sort of problem.


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## Anguille

RetiredGySgt said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ekrem said:
> 
> 
> 
> *Burka issue*
> Women in France who wear a burka are counted as 1.900 according to French Domestic Ministry. To another study they only count 376 women.
> It's just a political maneuver to placate the rise of right in France.
> The Roma also had to experience this.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The French government claims that it is a security issue.
> 
> Yet, not one single felony related crime has ever been committed by a woman wearing a burka in France.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Except for Muslim women, in the US in most locals it is ILLEGAL to wear a mask covering your face with out a legal or medical requirement. Exception being Halloween.
Click to expand...


That's nice they make an exception for pagans too.


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## Anguille

As usual, women are put in the middle of a tug of war.

This isn't about national security. It's about imposing dress codes on the least powerful in French society - minority women.


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## tigerbob

Anguille said:


> As usual, women are put in the middle of a tug of war.
> 
> This isn't about national security. It's about imposing dress codes on the least powerful in French society - minority women.



You need to run for Mayor of South Park.


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## Anguille

tigerbob said:


> Anguille said:
> 
> 
> 
> As usual, women are put in the middle of a tug of war.
> 
> This isn't about national security. It's about imposing dress codes on the least powerful in French society - minority women.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You need to run for Mayor of South Park.
Click to expand...


Je m'en fous de South Park.


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## tigerbob

Anguille said:


> tigerbob said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Anguille said:
> 
> 
> 
> As usual, women are put in the middle of a tug of war.
> 
> This isn't about national security. It's about imposing dress codes on the least powerful in French society - minority women.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You need to run for Mayor of South Park.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Je m'en fous de South Park.
Click to expand...


Je m'en bats les couilles.


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## Anguille

tigerbob said:


> Anguille said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> tigerbob said:
> 
> 
> 
> You need to run for Mayor of South Park.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Je m'en fous de South Park.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Je m'en bats les couilles.
Click to expand...


Alors, tu souffres de l'impatience dans les jambes la nuit?


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## tigerbob

Anguille said:


> tigerbob said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Anguille said:
> 
> 
> 
> Je m'en fous de South Park.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Je m'en bats les couilles.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Alors, tu souffres de l'impatience dans les jambes la nuit?
Click to expand...




C'est possible que vous avez raison.


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## Valerie

http://www.usmessageboard.com/general-global-topics/133086-france-outlaws-burkas-19.html#post2738289


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## Anguille

Bob, J'ai toujours raison. Toujours. Tu ne le sais pas encore?


----------



## Big Fitz

tigerbob said:


> At least two women have been detained in France while wearing Islamic veils across their faces, after a law banning the garment in public came into force.
> 
> Police said they were held not because of their veils but for joining an unauthorised protest against the ban.
> 
> France is the first country in Europe to publicly ban a form of dress some Muslims regard as a religious duty.
> 
> Anyone caught breaking the law will be liable to a fine of 150 euros (£133; $217) and a citizenship course.
> 
> People forcing women to wear the veil face a much larger fine and a prison sentence of up to two years.
> 
> It was not clear whether the women detained at the protest would also be fined for their veils.
> 
> BBC News - Women in face veils detained as France enforces ban
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Being required to remove a veil in an area where security / identification is an issue (like airports) is reasonable enough, but being banned from wearing it in a public park seems a bit draconian.
Click to expand...

Damn you rational demand!!!!

I seem to recall in the middle ages / early renaissance, masks were so popular the church had to ban them from the property or refuse them confession OR communion till they took it off.

I've absolutely no problems with this.


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## syrenn

Sunni Man said:


> Swagger said:
> 
> 
> 
> P.s. I feel compelled to declare that I vehemently oppose the wearing of the full burka in public. It has no place in western society, and is in no way shape or form a religious requirement stated by the Qur'an.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You are correct.
> 
> The burka is a cultural piece of clothing and is not Islamic or mandated by the Quran.
> 
> The veil has some basis in the Hadith for those who choose to wear it.
> 
> But in no way is the veil a required for Muslim women.
Click to expand...


Unless the man of he house or demands that they wear one right?


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## syrenn

Sunni Man said:


> ekrem said:
> 
> 
> 
> *Burka issue*
> Women in France who wear a burka are counted as 1.900 according to French Domestic Ministry. To another study they only count 376 women.
> It's just a political maneuver to placate the rise of right in France.
> The Roma also had to experience this.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The French government claims that it is a security issue.
> 
> Yet, not one single felony related crime has ever been committed by a woman wearing a burka in France.
Click to expand...




How do you know its a woman under that burka?


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## ekrem




----------



## syrenn

Sunni Man said:


> RetiredGySgt said:
> 
> 
> 
> Except for Muslim women, in the US in most locals it is ILLEGAL to wear a mask covering your face with out a legal or medical requirement. Exception being Halloween.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A veil is not a mask.
Click to expand...



semantics Sunni Man...semantics.


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## ekrem

ekrem said:


>



FRANCE 24 - 1,900 women affected by France

Now 1.900 women have to be the victim so Sarkozy increases his chances to survive 1st round. 
He is trying to fish in LePen's aquarium.


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## syrenn

Jos said:


> Will this new law apply to Brides veils too?



You can still see the face of a bride behind "bridal" veils.


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## Big Fitz

syrenn said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ekrem said:
> 
> 
> 
> *Burka issue*
> Women in France who wear a burka are counted as 1.900 according to French Domestic Ministry. To another study they only count 376 women.
> It's just a political maneuver to placate the rise of right in France.
> The Roma also had to experience this.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The French government claims that it is a security issue.
> 
> Yet, not one single felony related crime has ever been committed by a woman wearing a burka in France.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How do you know its a woman under that burka?
Click to expand...

The dynamite belt wrecks a figure, let me tell you.


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## ekrem

Libyan War Not a Sure Thing to Save Sarkozy
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/12/world/europe/12iht-politicus12.html?partner=rssnyt&emc=rss

*Deportation* of EU-citizens (Roma) from France didn't help him either in his ratings.


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## syrenn

Big Fitz said:


> syrenn said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> 
> The French government claims that it is a security issue.
> 
> Yet, not one single felony related crime has ever been committed by a woman wearing a burka in France.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How do you know its a woman under that burka?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The dynamite belt wrecks a figure, let me tell you.
Click to expand...


You can see a figure under a burka?


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## tigerbob

Anguille said:


> Bob, J'ai toujours raison. Toujours. Tu ne le sais pas encore?





Qui peut raconter toutes les belles histoires. Les recits, les contes, les moments de gloire....


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## Anguille

ekrem said:


> ekrem said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> FRANCE 24 - 1,900 women affected by France
> 
> Now 1.900 women have to be the victim so Sarkozy increases his chances to survive 1st round.
> He is trying to fish in LePen's aquarium.
Click to expand...


That is exactly what he is doing. But he is only a reflection of France's long history of zenophobia.


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## Sunni Man

syrenn said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> RetiredGySgt said:
> 
> 
> 
> Except for Muslim women, in the US in most locals it is ILLEGAL to wear a mask covering your face with out a legal or medical requirement. Exception being Halloween.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A veil is not a mask.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> semantics Sunni Man...semantics.
Click to expand...

According to the FBI in 2010 there were 5,600 bank robberies in the U.S.

The vast majority wore some kind of mask or disguise.

But there was no recorded instance of a bank robber using  a veil.

Or disguised as a Muslim woman.


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## ekrem

Swagger said:


> I sincerely hope that Cameron and Merkel are watching today's events in France with interest.



Burka is non-existent in Germany for the law-giver to intervene according to Head of Interior Committee of German Parliament.
A ban in public would also violate German constitution.
Deutsche Welle - BurkaVerbot in Deutschland?


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## syrenn

Sunni Man said:


> syrenn said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> 
> A veil is not a mask.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> semantics Sunni Man...semantics.
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> According to the FBI in 2010 there were 5,600 bank robberies in the U.S.
> 
> The vast majority wore some kind of mask or disguise.
> 
> But there was no recorded instance of a bank robber using  a veil.
> 
> Or disguised as a Muslim woman.
Click to expand...




So? Anything covering the face to hide or conceal the idinity is a mask. Semantics Sunni man... semantics. 






mask
- 10 of 63 thesaurus results
Main Entry: 	mask
Part of Speech: 	noun
Definition: 	false face, cover
Synonyms: 	affectation, air*, appearance, aspect, beard, blind, camouflage, cloak*, concealment, cover-up, disguise, disguisement, dissembling, dissimulation, domino, facade, fig leaf, front, guise, hood, masquerade, pose, posture, pretense, pretext, put-on, screen, semblance, show*, simulation, veil*, veneer, visage, visor, window dressing 

Mask Synonyms, Mask Antonyms | Thesaurus.com







mask
- 7 dictionary results
mask
&#8194; &#8194;[mask, mahsk] Show IPA
&#8211;noun
1.
a covering for all or part of the face, worn to conceal one's identity.
2.
a grotesque or humorous false face worn at a carnival, masquerade, etc.: Halloween masks.
3.
Also called swim mask. a device consisting typically of a transparent glass or plastic panel fitted into a flexible rubber gasket that fits snugly around the eyes, over the cheeks, and usually over the nose: used by skin divers.
4.
anything that disguises or conceals; disguise; pretense: His politeness is a mask for his fundamentally malicious personality.
5.
a likeness of a face, as one molded on the face in plaster. Compare death mask, life mask.
6.
a covering of wire, gauze, etc., to protect the face, as from splinters, dust, or a pitched ball.
7.
gas mask.
8.
any protective covering for the face or head.
9.
any protective covering, as paper, cardboard, plastic, or the like, used for masking an area of something, as of a photograph or window.
10.
the dark shading on the muzzle of certain dogs.
11.
a representation of a face or head, generally grotesque, used as an architectural ornament or as a decorative device in weaponry, furniture, etc.
12.
a person wearing a mask; masker.
13.
masque ( defs. 1&#8211;3 ) .
14.
Also, masque. a cosmetic cream, gel, paste, or the like, that is applied to the face and allowed to remain for a short time before being removed and is used for tightening, cleansing, refreshing, or lubricating the skin.
15.
a piece of cloth, silk, or plastic material covering the face of an actor to symbolize the character being represented: used in Greek and Roman drama and in some modern plays.
16.
the face or head, as of a fox.
17.
Electronics . a type of stencil applied to the surface of a semiconductor to permit selective etching or deposition: used in the manufacture of integrated circuits by photolithography.
18.
Fortification . a screen, as of earth or brush, for concealing or protecting a battery or any military operation.
19.
Also called braker. Shipbuilding . a sliding timber construction braced against the stern of a hull being launched to keep it from entering the water too rapidly.
&#8211;verb (used with object)
20.
to disguise or conceal; hide; dissemble: to mask one's intentions.
21.
to cover or conceal with a mask.
22.
to cover or shield a part of (a design, picture, etc.) in order to prevent reproduction or to protect the surface from the colors used, as in working with an air brush or in painting.
23.
Fortification . to conceal (a battery or any military operation) from the enemy.
24.
to hinder, as an army, from conducting an operation.


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## Sunni Man

Wow, you are really ate up with this mask thing Syrenn.  

Btw is a woman's makeup considered a mask??


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## manifold

tigerbob said:


> manifold said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> tigerbob said:
> 
> 
> 
> sentence much?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Still not a rebuttal though.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Seriously Mani?  You were actually expecting a rebuttal over that one word?
> 
> OK, if your argument is with that one, specific word, try 'severe' instead.
Click to expand...


Less learned, but equally hyperbolic IMO.


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## syrenn

Sunni Man said:


> Wow, you are really ate up with this mask thing Syrenn.
> 
> Btw is a woman's makeup considered a mask??



LOL, no,you just seem not to understand the idea of semantics...or what a mask is. So ya get the dictionary! 

You can still see (hopefully ) what the face looks like under makeup, so no i would not consider that a mask.


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## Sunni Man

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Inm6J1lzqBI&feature=youtube_gdata_player]YouTube - Makeup lesson with Tammy Faye Bakker[/ame]


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## syrenn

Sunni Man said:


> YouTube - Makeup lesson with Tammy Faye Bakker









Nasty as her makeup was, you could still see her lying face.


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## Anguille

No one has explained yet how a man telling women they cannot wear burkas is being any less oppressive than a man who tells them they must wear burkas.


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## syrenn

Anguille said:


> No one has explained yet how a man telling women they cannot wear burkas is being any less oppressive than a man who tells them they must wear burkas.





The way i see it is if they want to wear them please feel free to move (or stay) to a country that wants women to wear them.


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## Anguille

syrenn said:


> Anguille said:
> 
> 
> 
> No one has explained yet how a man telling women they cannot wear burkas is being any less oppressive than a man who tells them they must wear burkas.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The way i see it is if they want to wear them please feel free to move (or stay) to a country that wants women to wear them.
Click to expand...

 


Fashion police to the extreme!!!


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## syrenn

Anguille said:


> syrenn said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Anguille said:
> 
> 
> 
> No one has explained yet how a man telling women they cannot wear burkas is being any less oppressive than a man who tells them they must wear burkas.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The way i see it is if they want to wear them please feel free to move (or stay) to a country that wants women to wear them.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Fashion police to the extreme!!!
Click to expand...


I was not under the impression that they were wearing then for fashion reasons.  Fashion has nothing to do with it.


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## Anguille

syrenn said:


> Anguille said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> syrenn said:
> 
> 
> 
> The way i see it is if they want to wear them please feel free to move (or stay) to a country that wants women to wear them.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Fashion police to the extreme!!!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I was not under the impression that they were wearing then for fashion reasons. Fashion has nothing to do with it.
Click to expand...

 
Why should they even have to give a reason for wanting to wear them?


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## Blagger

Anguille said:


> syrenn said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Anguille said:
> 
> 
> 
> Fashion police to the extreme!!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I was not under the impression that they were wearing then for fashion reasons. Fashion has nothing to do with it.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Why should they even have to give a reason for wanting to wear them?
Click to expand...


Apart from protecting us against the elements, clothing protects our modesty; not our identity. Western society has laws and conventions in place that protect us from tyranny, protects our freedom of speach etc... But nowhere does it state that it's socially acceptable to shield your identity in public. Only muslim women are exempt,on religious grounds, even though the Qur'an doesn't mandate the burka. It's not just inequality, it's misinformed inequality. 

If it's traditionally and socially acceptable to scurry about like an unaccounted for ghost in the middle east and muslim countries, fine, do it there. In western society, you're expected to show your face in public.


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## Anguille

Swagger said:


> Anguille said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> syrenn said:
> 
> 
> 
> I was not under the impression that they were wearing then for fashion reasons. Fashion has nothing to do with it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Why should they even have to give a reason for wanting to wear them?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Apart from protecting us against the elements, clothing protects our modesty; not our identity. Western society has laws and conventions in place that protect us from tyranny, protects our freedom of speach etc... But nowhere does it state that it's socially acceptable to shield your identity in public. Only muslim women are exempt,on religious grounds, even though the Qur'an doesn't mandate the burka. It's not just inequality, it's misinformed inequality.
> 
> If it's traditionally and socially acceptable to scurry about like an unaccounted for ghost in the middle east and muslim countries, fine, do it there. In western society, you're expected to show your face in public.
Click to expand...

 I believe in person's right to privacy. I also believe in live and let live. And I don't believe social conventions and pressures to conform are a good enough reason to force people to expose parts of their bodies they do not wish to expose.


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## Valerie

They are free to wear the entire cover up in private and during religious ceremonies but ALL citizens are required to show their face in public places.  Boo hoo.


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## Anguille

Should men be required to shave off their beards?


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## Valerie

Anguille said:


> Should men be required to shave off their beards?





Why would they be?


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## syrenn

Anguille said:


> Should men be required to shave off their beards?





COOL.... now that would be a law i would vigorously enforce! From this day forth all men must be clean shaven!


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## Anguille

Valerie said:


> Anguille said:
> 
> 
> 
> Should men be required to shave off their beards?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Why would they be?
Click to expand...

 
No reason at all. Just as there is no reason why anyone should be prevented from covering thier face.


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## syrenn

Anguille said:


> Valerie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Anguille said:
> 
> 
> 
> Should men be required to shave off their beards?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Why would they be?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No reason at all. Just as there is no reason why anyone should be prevented from covering thier face.
Click to expand...



Works for me.. let the women grow beards.


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## manifold

Anguille said:


> No one has explained yet how a man telling women they cannot wear burkas is being any less oppressive than a man who tells them they must wear burkas.



First you'll have to explain how "a man telling women they cannot wear burkas" is an accurate characterization of this law.


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## Anguille

syrenn said:


> Anguille said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Valerie said:
> 
> 
> 
> Why would they be?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No reason at all. Just as there is no reason why anyone should be prevented from covering thier face.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Works for me.. let the women grow beards.
Click to expand...


----------



## syrenn

Anguille said:


> syrenn said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Anguille said:
> 
> 
> 
> No reason at all. Just as there is no reason why anyone should be prevented from covering thier face.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Works for me.. let the women grow beards.
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...



Oh come on...its france. I thought they liked hairy woman.


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## Blagger

Spot the difference, USMB. Where's Walid?


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## tigerbob

Anguille said:


> ekrem said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ekrem said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> FRANCE 24 - 1,900 women affected by France
> 
> Now 1.900 women have to be the victim so Sarkozy increases his chances to survive 1st round.
> He is trying to fish in LePen's aquarium.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> That is exactly what he is doing. But he is only a reflection of France's long history of zenophobia.
Click to expand...


Fear of Bhuddism?


----------



## Anguille

manifold said:


> Anguille said:
> 
> 
> 
> No one has explained yet how a man telling women they cannot wear burkas is being any less oppressive than a man who tells them they must wear burkas.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> First you'll have to explain how "a man telling women they cannot wear burkas" is an accurate characterization of this law.
Click to expand...

So, not only are you a Cafeteria Catholic, you are also a Cafeteria Libertarian.


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## tigerbob

Anguille said:


> manifold said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Anguille said:
> 
> 
> 
> No one has explained yet how a man telling women they cannot wear burkas is being any less oppressive than a man who tells them they must wear burkas.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> First you'll have to explain how "a man telling women they cannot wear burkas" is an accurate characterization of this law.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> So, not only are you a Cafeteria Catholic, you are also a Cafeteria Libertarian.
Click to expand...


Don't you normally use  when you want to sidestep something Ang?


----------



## manifold

Anguille said:


> manifold said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Anguille said:
> 
> 
> 
> No one has explained yet how a man telling women they cannot wear burkas is being any less oppressive than a man who tells them they must wear burkas.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> First you'll have to explain how "a man telling women they cannot wear burkas" is an accurate characterization of this law.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> So, not only are you a Cafeteria Catholic, you are also a Cafeteria Libertarian.
Click to expand...


It was a simple request. 

No need for personal attacks, that is, if you have an answer.


----------



## Big Fitz

syrenn said:


> Anguille said:
> 
> 
> 
> Should men be required to shave off their beards?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> COOL.... now that would be a law i would vigorously enforce! From this day forth all men must be clean shaven!
Click to expand...

GRRRRRRRRRR.....!  No touchie touchie my goatee!


----------



## RetiredGySgt

del said:


> RetiredGySgt said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> 
> The French government claims that it is a security issue.
> 
> Yet, not one single felony related crime has ever been committed by a woman wearing a burka in France.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Except for Muslim women, in the US in most locals it is ILLEGAL to wear a mask covering your face with out a legal or medical requirement. Exception being Halloween.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> bullshit
Click to expand...


Go ahead wear a mask for no reason every where you go one day and see what happens.


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## Sunni Man

In the north during the winter months.

You see people wearing ski masks everywhere you go.


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## RetiredGySgt

Sunni Man said:


> In the north during the winter months.
> 
> You see people wearing ski masks everywhere you go.



Again without reason dumb ass. Go ahead put a ski mask on on a nice warm day and wear it over your face all day as you drive around town and go shopping. See what happens.


----------



## Sunni Man

RetiredGySgt said:


> Go ahead put a ski mask on on a nice warm day and wear it over your face all day as you drive around town and go shopping. See what happens.


You will get hot and start to sweat.


----------



## hipeter924

tigerbob said:


> Anguille said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ekrem said:
> 
> 
> 
> FRANCE 24 - 1,900 women affected by France
> 
> Now 1.900 women have to be the victim so Sarkozy increases his chances to survive 1st round.
> He is trying to fish in LePen's aquarium.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That is exactly what he is doing. But he is only a reflection of France's long history of xenophobia.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Fear of Buddhism?
Click to expand...

No, fear of Gypsies, Muslims and different ethnic and religious groups. Le Pen was a tin pot Fascist even before Islamic immigration hit the headlines, he only exists by preaching hate and violence and is far worse than the Islamic radicals he preaches against. 

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1lI7RP7GqMU"]YouTube - The Unwanted : the most peaceful, the Gypsy in the libertyless France[/ame]


----------



## tigerbob

hipeter924 said:


> tigerbob said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Anguille said:
> 
> 
> 
> That is exactly what he is doing. But he is only a reflection of France's long history of xenophobia.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Fear of Buddhism?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> No, fear of Gypsies, Muslims and different ethnic and religious groups. Le Pen was a tin pot Fascist even before Islamic immigration hit the headlines, he only exists by preaching hate and violence and is far worse than the Islamic radicals he preaches against.
> 
> [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1lI7RP7GqMU"]YouTube - The Unwanted : the most peaceful, the Gypsy in the libertyless France[/ame]
> 
> [ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QgTP2aKBO_0&feature=related]YouTube - Discrimination Against Roma Muslims of Europe[/ame]
Click to expand...


Yeah, I know Le Pen.  An ex girlfriend of mine used to be a huuuuge Le Pen supporter, and that was 20 years ago.


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## Anguille

tigerbob said:


> Anguille said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> manifold said:
> 
> 
> 
> First you'll have to explain how "a man telling women they cannot wear burkas" is an accurate characterization of this law.
> 
> 
> 
> So, not only are you a Cafeteria Catholic, you are also a Cafeteria Libertarian.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Don't you normally use  when you want to sidestep something Ang?
Click to expand...


Tiger, I'm still trying to figure out how you get "fear of Buddhism" out of all this.


----------



## Anguille

manifold said:


> Anguille said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> manifold said:
> 
> 
> 
> First you'll have to explain how "a man telling women they cannot wear burkas" is an accurate characterization of this law.
> 
> 
> 
> So, not only are you a Cafeteria Catholic, you are also a Cafeteria Libertarian.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> It was a simple request.
> 
> No need for personal attacks, that is, if you have an answer.
Click to expand...


In 2009 Sarkozy made a statement announcing that the burka was not welcome in France. He did not initiate the legislation that has led to the banning the wearing of veils in public places but he soon took up the cause. As ekrem says, he is fishing in Le Pen's aquarium. He sees this as way to cash in on France's deep seated anti immigrant sentiment.

As a libertarian, how can you justify such a law?


----------



## manifold

Anguille said:


> In 2009 Sarkozy made a statement announcing that the burka was not welcome in France. He did not initiate the legislation that has led to the banning the wearing of veils in public places but he soon took up the cause. As ekrem says, he is fishing in Le Pen's aquarium. He sees this as way to cash in on France's deep seated anti immigrant sentiment.
> 
> As a libertarian, how can you justify such a law?



I'm not convinced that it is justified. And likewise, I'm not convinced that it isn't.

But it still doesn't fit your characterization that it's sexist oppression of women, anymore than forcing women to cover their vag in public is sexist oppression.

And regardless, the law is no more 'draconian' than laws that ban smoking in bars and restaurants.

PS: I find it interesting that you see me as a libertarian. Not particularly bothersome mind you, but I feel obligated to inform you that I do not self-identify as a libertarian and have never registered libertarian.


----------



## Big Fitz

Sunni Man said:


> In the north during the winter months.
> 
> You see people wearing ski masks everywhere you go.


Yes, but you don't refuse to take it off, or try to get away with it at the DMV.  No.  It is like a hat.  Removable upon request and there are no religious implications or social implications beyond trying to keep from getting frostbite.

The equivalency fails so bad.

Next you'll try to claim surgeons shouldn't wear masks while trying to save your life.  Or painters should not be protected from the fumes of the product they work with.

By making such arguments to excuse an obsolete custom obeyed only by religious radicals and (in the case of ski masks out of season) criminals... you've effectively eviscerated your entire argument's credibility.


----------



## Sunni Man

Big Fitz said:


> By making such arguments to excuse an obsolete custom obeyed only by religious radicals and (in the case of ski masks out of season) criminals... you've effectively eviscerated your entire argument's credibility.



Incorrect

Wearing the veil is not an obsolete custom.

Hundreds of millions of Muslim women wear it everyday in various countries around the world.

In the city that I live in here in America.

I see dozens of Muslim women wearing the veil everyday.


----------



## syrenn

Sunni Man said:


> In the north during the winter months.
> 
> You see people wearing ski masks everywhere you go.




And if you ask them to remove said covering ...they don't go all offended ballistic blow them selves up nut case jihad crazy either.


----------



## High_Gravity

Sunni Man said:


> In the north during the winter months.
> 
> You see people wearing ski masks everywhere you go.



Are burqas worn to keep the women warm than Sunni? I think thats a bad comparison.


----------



## Big Fitz

Sunni Man said:


> Big Fitz said:
> 
> 
> 
> By making such arguments to excuse an obsolete custom obeyed only by religious radicals and (in the case of ski masks out of season) criminals... you've effectively eviscerated your entire argument's credibility.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Incorrect
> 
> Wearing the veil is not an obsolete custom.
> 
> Hundreds of millions of Muslim women wear it everyday in various countries around the world.
> 
> In the city that I live in here in America.
> 
> I see dozens of Muslim women wearing the veil everyday.
Click to expand...

I live in a major metropolitan area and work in the downtown as well as slums and suburbs.  we have a very large muslim population.  I have not ONCE seen a Burkah or veil.  I've seen hundreds of headscarves and Hijabs that do not cover the face.  I go through an area nicknamed "Little Mogadishu" from it's high somali muslim population.  Never saw one once.

Sorry, you still has a fail.


----------



## syrenn

Big Fitz said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Big Fitz said:
> 
> 
> 
> By making such arguments to excuse an obsolete custom obeyed only by religious radicals and (in the case of ski masks out of season) criminals... you've effectively eviscerated your entire argument's credibility.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Incorrect
> 
> Wearing the veil is not an obsolete custom.
> 
> Hundreds of millions of Muslim women wear it everyday in various countries around the world.
> 
> In the city that I live in here in America.
> 
> I see dozens of Muslim women wearing the veil everyday.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I live in a major metropolitan area and work in the downtown as well as slums and suburbs.  we have a very large muslim population.  I have not ONCE seen a Burkah or veil.  I've seen hundreds of headscarves and Hijabs that do not cover the face.  I go through an area nicknamed "Little Mogadishu" from it's high somali muslim population.  Never saw one once.
> 
> Sorry, you still has a fail.
Click to expand...




Sandstorms?


----------



## Blagger

The simple fact of the matter is that since towards the end of the Roman empire, the former Roman provinces of continental Europe have, by and large, been Christian influenced lands. And, for the most part, are better for it than territories that fall under the dictates of Islam. The problem now being is that Europe is mainly secular, though its society is still built on largely Christian foundations, and has flourished after seperating the church from the overall machinations of the state. Now, after the EU foolishly opened its prosperous borders to one of the armpits of the world - otherwise known as the middle east, which, to all intents and purposes is still stuck in the 12th century - its (largely) liberal societal ethos is being taken advantage of by a culture that still wants it both ways. In that they still want to live under the yoke of what westerners deem an oppressive religion, but don't want to integrate into a wealthy and safe environment by sacrificing some of the trappings of Islam. Which, in this case, aren't even mandated by the Qur'an. 

Basically, the underlying message that's being circulated, endorsed but more importantly influencing future European voters - and understandably westerners who feel threatened by what they're seeing happen in Europe (whether or not it's being sensationalised by the press is beside the point) - is either for muslims to put up or pack up.


----------



## manifold

swagger said:


> the simple fact of the matter is that since towards the end of the roman empire, the former roman provinces of continental europe have, by and large, been christian influenced lands. And, for the most part, are better for it than territories that fall under the dictates of islam. The problem now being is that europe is mainly secular, though its society is still built on largely christian foundations, and has flourished after seperating the church from the overall machinations of the state. Now, after the eu foolishly opened its prosperous borders to one of the armpits of the world - otherwise known as the middle east, which, to all intents and purposes is still stuck in the 12th century - its (largely) liberal societal ethos is being taken advantage of by a culture that still wants it both ways. In that they still want to live under the yoke of what westerners deem an oppressive religion, but don't want to integrate into a wealthy and safe environment by sacrificing some of the trappings of islam. Which, in this case, aren't even mandated by the qur'an.
> 
> Basically, the underlying message that's being circulated, endorsed but more importantly influencing future european voters - and understandably westerners who feel threatened by what they're seeing happen in europe (whether or not it's being sensationalised by the press is beside the point) - is either for muslims to put up or pack up.



+1


----------



## Sunni Man

Big Fitz said:


> I live in a major metropolitan area and work in the downtown as well as slums and suburbs.  we have a very large muslim population.  I have not ONCE seen a Burkah or veil.  I've seen hundreds of headscarves and Hijabs that do not cover the face.  I go through an area nicknamed "Little Mogadishu" from it's high somali muslim population.  Never saw one .



The answer is quite simple.

Somali women do not wear the veil; as it is not part of their tradition or culture.

The mosque I attend Is about 60% Somali 

And I have never seen a Somali Muslim woman wearing a veil.

But if I go for prayers to another mosque in the next town.

It is made up mainly of Middle East and Gulf Arabs.

Most of the women wear the veil.

So in essence, it depends on the what country the local Muslims originated from as to whether you will see veiled women or not.


----------



## High_Gravity

Sunni Man said:


> Big Fitz said:
> 
> 
> 
> I live in a major metropolitan area and work in the downtown as well as slums and suburbs.  we have a very large muslim population.  I have not ONCE seen a Burkah or veil.  I've seen hundreds of headscarves and Hijabs that do not cover the face.  I go through an area nicknamed "Little Mogadishu" from it's high somali muslim population.  Never saw one .
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The answer is quite simple.
> 
> Somali women do not wear the veil; as it is not part of their tradition or culture.
> 
> The mosque I attend Is about 60% Somali
> 
> And I have never seen a Somali Muslim woman wearing a veil.
> 
> But if I go for prayers to another mosque in the next town.
> 
> It is made up mainly of Middle East and Gulf Arabs.
> 
> Most of the women wear the veil.
> 
> So in essence, it depends on the what country the local Muslims originated from as to whether you will see veiled women or not.
Click to expand...


Basically the veil is an Arab traditional thing, not necessarily Muslim.


----------



## Two Thumbs

tigerbob said:


> At least two women have been detained in France while wearing Islamic veils across their faces, after a law banning the garment in public came into force.
> 
> Police said they were held not because of their veils but for joining an unauthorised protest against the ban.
> 
> France is the first country in Europe to publicly ban a form of dress some Muslims regard as a religious duty.
> 
> Anyone caught breaking the law will be liable to a fine of 150 euros (£133; $217) and a citizenship course.
> 
> People forcing women to wear the veil face a much larger fine and a prison sentence of up to two years.
> 
> It was not clear whether the women detained at the protest would also be fined for their veils.
> 
> BBC News - Women in face veils detained as France enforces ban
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Being required to remove a veil in an area where security / identification is an issue (like airports) is reasonable enough, but being banned from wearing it in a public park seems a bit draconian.
Click to expand...


Now aren't you glad you live in America where you have the Right to Free Speech?


----------



## ekrem

Swagger said:


> Now, after the EU foolishly opened its prosperous borders to one of the armpits of the world - otherwise known as the middle east,



So, UK's Muslim immigrants come from Middle-East?
I thought it were Indian, Bangladeshi and Pakistani Muslims?
France, Netherlands and UK are prime examples of immigration from colonies.
Algeria has a special status as it was no colony but legally a part of France. 

Blame yourself. Wouldn't there be a colony-relationship the immigrants would have only been asylums or 'Gastarbeiter' like in Germany.


----------



## High_Gravity

ekrem said:


> Swagger said:
> 
> 
> 
> Now, after the EU foolishly opened its prosperous borders to one of the armpits of the world - otherwise known as the middle east,
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *So, UK's Muslim immigrants come from Middle-East?
> I thought it were Indian, Bangladeshi and Pakistani Muslims?*France, Netherlands and UK are prime examples of immigration from colonies.
> Algeria has a special status as it was no colony but legally a part of France.
> 
> Blame yourself. Wouldn't there be a colony-relationship the immigrants would have only been asylums or 'Gastarbeiter' like in Germany.
Click to expand...


That is true but England also has alot of Muslims from Egypt, Somalia and Iraq.


----------



## ekrem

Big Fitz said:


> I have not ONCE seen a Burkah or veil.  I've seen hundreds of headscarves and Hijabs that do not cover the face.



Face covering is not a religious obligation coming from scripture. 
But there are women who interpret it as a religious obligation and at that point it becomes an interference in freedom of religion of those persons once the law-giver bans it. 
It is for the individuals to decide what their religious obligations are.

That would be a theoretical discussion. 
In reality, there are about 2.5 Mio Muslim women in France and it is about 1.900 women on whose behalf the law-giver is exploiting public moods and trying to gain something out of it.


----------



## ekrem

It's approximatively about 0.076% of Muslim women in France.
And about 0.0029% of every person in France.

Media will show up with Burka pictures, but in reality you must be lucky to see a Burka in France (0.0029% of every person in France).
Still enough for the current law-giver (Sarkozy) to make a public PR out of it.


----------



## High_Gravity

ekrem said:


> It's approximatively about 0.076% of Muslim women in France.
> And about 0.0029% of every person in France.
> 
> *Media will show up with Burka pictures, but in reality you must be lucky to see a Burka in France (0.0029% of every person in France).*Still enough for the current law-giver (Sarkozy) to make a public PR out of it.



If thats true than this law should be no big deal, right?


----------



## ekrem

Proportionality isn't there for the law-giver having a need to intervene. 
It's a populist move and the process has been accompanied by medial interest. 
Cheap PR, targeting a specific kind of voters who are on the rise and whose rise decrease Sarkozy's chance to get re-elected if they don't vote for him (National Front).
All on the back of 1.900 women.


----------



## Colin

ekrem said:


> Proportionality isn't there for the law-giver having a need to intervene.
> It's a populist move and the process has been accompanied by medial interest.
> Cheap PR, targeting a specific kind of voters who are on the rise and whose rise decrease Sarkozy's chance to get re-elected if they don't vote for him (National Front).
> All on the back of 1.900 women.



If you feel so strongly about this, wouldn't you be better advised to concentrate your criticism against your own country that has had a ban on the veil in schools, universities and government buildings for decades...instead of poking your nose into other countries laws and cultures!


----------



## ekrem

Colin said:


> If you feel so strongly about this, wouldn't you be better advised to concentrate your criticism against your own country that has had a ban on the veil in schools, universities and government buildings for decades...instead of poking your nose into other countries laws and cultures!



There is a considerable difference between banning something within buildings and banning something on the streets.
And citizens with head-scarfs still could enter those buildings except for Universities. 

And it's not for you to decide where I put my nose into.


----------



## Colin

ekrem said:


> Colin said:
> 
> 
> 
> If you feel so strongly about this, wouldn't you be better advised to concentrate your criticism against your own country that has had a ban on the veil in schools, universities and government buildings for decades...instead of poking your nose into other countries laws and cultures!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There is a considerable difference between banning something within buildings and banning something on the streets.
> And citizens with head-scarfs still could enter those buildings except for Universities.
> 
> And it's not for you to decide where I put my nose into.
Click to expand...


A ban is a ban! Hypocrite, much?


----------



## ekrem

Colin said:


> A ban is a ban! Hypocrite, much?



That Hypocrisy is ending:
BBC VIDEO - Turkey's universities drop Islamic headscarf ban

And there still is a big difference between banning something on the streets and banning something within State Buildings.


----------



## Colin

ekrem said:


> Colin said:
> 
> 
> 
> A ban is a ban! Hypocrite, much?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That Hypocrisy is ending:
> BBC VIDEO - Turkey's universities drop Islamic headscarf ban
> 
> And there still is a big difference between banning something on the streets and banning something within State Buildings.
Click to expand...


This is hilarious! Listening to followers of the most intolerant religion in the world whining about a foreign country's laws against face coverings!


----------



## Grace

You (general you) have a very expensive boutique or store. Say maybe a pawn shop. Would you allow someone to come in and shop with a burqa on? Or full body burqa? Is it racist to know what may be put under those robes without being paid for? If so, isnt it also racist where stores make customers check their bags before going shopping?


----------



## ekrem

Colin said:


> This is hilarious! Listening to followers of the most intolerant religion in the world whining about a foreign country's laws against face coverings!



Who forces you to listen to me?
Once I am willing to consider your private feelings about Islam in my posting-activity, I will let you know!

You either debate objective or I must consider you as a Anti-Muslim bigot.


----------



## Big Fitz

ekrem said:


> Big Fitz said:
> 
> 
> 
> I have not ONCE seen a Burkah or veil.  I've seen hundreds of headscarves and Hijabs that do not cover the face.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Face covering is not a religious obligation coming from scripture.
> But there are women who interpret it as a religious obligation and at that point it becomes an interference in freedom of religion of those persons once the law-giver bans it.
> It is for the individuals to decide what their religious obligations are.
> 
> That would be a theoretical discussion.
> In reality, there are about 2.5 Mio Muslim women in France and it is about 1.900 women on whose behalf the law-giver is exploiting public moods and trying to gain something out of it.
Click to expand...

You assume that Somalis are the only Muslims I see.  Again, I've still NEVER seen a Burkah or veil in the twin cities.

Sounds like those 1900 muslim women in France you mention need to adapt to modern western society.


----------



## Colin

ekrem said:


> Colin said:
> 
> 
> 
> This is hilarious! Listening to followers of the most intolerant religion in the world whining about a foreign country's laws against face coverings!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Who forces you to listen to me?
> Once I am willing to consider your private feelings about Islam in my posting-activity, I will let you know!
> 
> You either debate objective or I must consider you as a Anti-Muslim bigot.
Click to expand...


Call me what you will, but do make sure you understand what the term bigot means:

_A bigot is a person obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices, especially one exhibiting intolerance, and animosity toward those of differing beliefs. _

Now answer me this. Which belief system forbids the pubic expression or propagation of faiths other than its own? Considers itself supremacist and subjugates non-believers? Wants to throw homosexuals from atop mountains? Has a death penalty for converting to another religion? To name but a few.

You know something? People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones!


----------



## Sunni Man

Big Fitz said:


> Sounds like those 1900 muslim women in France you mention need to adapt to modern western society.



Why should they be forced to adapt?


----------



## editec

Sunni Man said:


> Big Fitz said:
> 
> 
> 
> Sounds like those 1900 muslim women in France you mention need to adapt to modern western society.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Why should they be forced to adapt?
Click to expand...

 
Do you believe that societies have the right to define how one coexists in that society?

For example, I know that you are sympthetic to the plight of Palestinians.

You believe, I think, that they have the RIGHT to forge a society of their own design, true?

If they elect to enforce Sharia laws in the land called Palestine, you would agree that they have THAT right, would you not?

And so, for example, no woman could wear a minishirt to the Mosque, right?

Well...do the FRENCH not have that _same right_ to define proper behavior within their national borders?


----------



## Sunni Man

editec said:


> And so, for example, no woman could wear a minishirt to the Mosque, right?
> 
> Well...do the FRENCH not have that _same right_ to define proper behavior within their national borders?



Not a great example.

I doubt a woman would be allowed to worship in a Church wearing a mini skirt either.

The French law forbids a woman from wearing a burka just walking down the street minding her own business.

How can that be defined as improper behavior?


----------



## RetiredGySgt

Sunni Man said:


> editec said:
> 
> 
> 
> And so, for example, no woman could wear a minishirt to the Mosque, right?
> 
> Well...do the FRENCH not have that _same right_ to define proper behavior within their national borders?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Not a great example.
> 
> I doubt a woman would be allowed to worship in a Church wearing a mini skirt either.
> 
> The French law forbids a woman from wearing a burka just walking down the street minding her own business.
> 
> How can that be defined as improper behavior?
Click to expand...


You have to be kidding right? Women in this Country can and do go to church in what ever dress they want, INCLUDING short shorts and mini skirts.

As to Muslims, I suggest you check out some of those Muslim Countries and remind us how women are free to wear miniskirts and revealing clothing in those Countries.

You want to live somewhere? Follow the laws of that Country. France has every right to ban burkas and face veils. And I wish this Country would do the same. It already is illegal in a hell of a lot of places to cover your face if your not a Muslim. Go ahead test it out, wear a ski mask pulled down over your face on a non wintery day as you shop and do business.


----------



## Sunni Man

RetiredGySgt said:


> You have to be kidding right? Women in this Country can and do go to church in what ever dress they want, INCLUDING short shorts and mini skirts.


No wonder Christianity has become so weak and Church attendance is falling.

When they allow women to dress like sluts and enter the Church's to worship.


----------



## Colin

Sunni Man said:


> editec said:
> 
> 
> 
> And so, for example, no woman could wear a minishirt to the Mosque, right?
> 
> Well...do the FRENCH not have that _same right_ to define proper behavior within their national borders?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Not a great example.
> 
> I doubt a woman would be allowed to worship in a Church wearing a mini skirt either.
> 
> The French law forbids a woman from wearing a burka just walking down the street minding her own business.
> 
> How can that be defined as improper behavior?
Click to expand...


So what! Compared to many of the archaic laws applied in islamic countries, preventing people covering their face is mild. In Saudi Arabia a Christian can't even enter the country carrying a bible! In many islamic countries and Iran in particular, a homosexual is subject to imprisonment and possible execution! Apostacy is still punishable by death. Kiss your wife or girlfriend in public and you could be arrested...and you're whining about a fucking face veil! We even have Muslims come to live in Western nations and want to apply THEIR laws here too! It's a one way fucking street with you lot!


----------



## Big Fitz

Sunni Man said:


> Big Fitz said:
> 
> 
> 
> Sounds like those 1900 muslim women in France you mention need to adapt to modern western society.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Why should they be forced to adapt?
Click to expand...

Why should millions of people be forced to adapt to them?  Don't be daft.


----------



## Big Fitz

Sunni Man said:


> RetiredGySgt said:
> 
> 
> 
> You have to be kidding right? Women in this Country can and do go to church in what ever dress they want, INCLUDING short shorts and mini skirts.
> 
> 
> 
> No wonder Christianity has become so weak and Church attendance is falling.
> 
> When they allow women to dress like sluts and enter the Church's to worship.
Click to expand...

Aaaaand we get to the hostile heart of the matter.

I find it ironic that you have a problem with how women are dressed as compared to the fact that islamic society tolerates treating them as property.


----------



## R.D.

Sunni Man said:


> RetiredGySgt said:
> 
> 
> 
> You have to be kidding right? Women in this Country can and do go to church in what ever dress they want, INCLUDING short shorts and mini skirts.
> 
> 
> 
> No wonder Christianity has become so weak and Church attendance is falling.
> 
> When they allow women to dress like sluts and enter the Church's to worship.
Click to expand...


We're even better than that....we let the sluts in too


----------



## Sunni Man

Big Fitz said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Big Fitz said:
> 
> 
> 
> Sounds like those 1900 muslim women in France you mention need to adapt to modern western society.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Why should they be forced to adapt?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Why should millions of people be forced to adapt to them?  Don't be daft.
Click to expand...

What do you need to adapt to if a woman is just walking down the street wearing a veil?

You could always turn your head and not look at her.


----------



## FYI

I find it rather curious that when western women go into an islamic country, they are "highly advised" or sometimes required to cover their heads and/or faces.
Yet when islamic women go to western countries they DEMAND the host country provide for their belief system instead of conforming to the host countries rules.
Double standard???
Ban islam, not just the veil.


----------



## Sunni Man

FYI said:


> Ban islam, not just the veil.


Yea that will work.


----------



## Big Fitz

Sunni Man said:


> Big Fitz said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> 
> Why should they be forced to adapt?
> 
> 
> 
> Why should millions of people be forced to adapt to them?  Don't be daft.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> What do you need to adapt to if a woman is just walking down the street wearing a veil?
> 
> You could always turn your head and not look at her.
Click to expand...

Oh good.  Cool people walk away from explosions.  

You've got bigger problems in your religion than women wearing veils.  

Why is it women have to wear burkhas?  Why can't muslim men control their violent lusts?  How about a little personal responsibility for your character?


----------



## syrenn

Sunni Man said:


> Big Fitz said:
> 
> 
> 
> Sounds like those 1900 muslim women in France you mention need to adapt to modern western society.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Why should they be forced to adapt?
Click to expand...


They are free to go live where they do not have to adapt to anything.


----------



## syrenn

R.D. said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> RetiredGySgt said:
> 
> 
> 
> You have to be kidding right? Women in this Country can and do go to church in what ever dress they want, INCLUDING short shorts and mini skirts.
> 
> 
> 
> No wonder Christianity has become so weak and Church attendance is falling.
> 
> When they allow women to dress like sluts and enter the Church's to worship.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> We're even better than that....we let the sluts in too
Click to expand...



Imaging that, we don't gather into a mob and stone them to death.


----------



## syrenn

Sunni Man said:


> Big Fitz said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> 
> Why should they be forced to adapt?
> 
> 
> 
> Why should millions of people be forced to adapt to them?  Don't be daft.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> What do you need to adapt to if a woman is just walking down the street wearing a veil?
> 
> You could always turn your head and not look at her.
Click to expand...



How do you KNOW its a woman under the mask?


----------



## Sunni Man

syrenn said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Big Fitz said:
> 
> 
> 
> Why should millions of people be forced to adapt to them?  Don't be daft.
> 
> 
> 
> What do you need to adapt to if a woman is just walking down the street wearing a veil?
> 
> You could always turn your head and not look at her.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> How do you KNOW its a woman under the mask?
Click to expand...


What mask?


----------



## Colin

Sunni Man said:


> Big Fitz said:
> 
> 
> 
> Sounds like those 1900 muslim women in France you mention need to adapt to modern western society.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Why should they be forced to adapt?
Click to expand...


Are you telling us that non-muslims going to live or work in Islamic countries are not forced to adapt?


----------



## Colin

Sunni Man said:


> syrenn said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> 
> What do you need to adapt to if a woman is just walking down the street wearing a veil?
> 
> You could always turn your head and not look at her.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How do you KNOW its a woman under the mask?
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> What mask?
Click to expand...


Dictionary definition of mask: _a covering for all or part of the face, worn to conceal one's identity._

Got it now Sunni!


----------



## Sunni Man

Muslim women wear a veil.

I have never Ever heard it refered to as a mask except here at USMB.


----------



## Valerie

Sunni Man said:


> Muslim women wear a veil.
> 
> I have never Ever heard it refered to as a mask except here at USMB.





For the purpose of this discussion the issue is citizens masking their face in public places.


It's never been a big issue before because most people don't usually go around masking their faces everywhere they go the way Muslims do.  Why do Muslims feel so put upon for having to show their face in public places?  Why do they have to pretend as if it's an affront to their religion?


----------



## Colin

Sunni Man said:


> Muslim women wear a veil.
> 
> I have never Ever heard it refered to as a mask except here at USMB.



Then you should be grateful. Today you've learned something new!


----------



## Sunni Man

Valerie said:


> It's never been a big issue before because most people don't usually go around masking their faces everywhere they go the way Muslims do.  Why do Muslims feel so put upon for having to show their face in public places?  Why do they have to pretend as if it's an affront to their religion?



Muslims are being besieged by non Muslims all over the world.

Muslim countries are being invaded and occupied on a regular basis.

Women being told they must conform to certain dress codes.

Even here in the US towns changing zoning codes to prevent Mosques from being built.

And Quran's being burned For no reason other than spite.

Even your use of the word "pretend" in your last sentence displays contempt towards Muslims.


But on the up side; all this is doing is making the Islamic community pull together and grow stronger everyday.

Have no doubt that we will prevail in the end.

And those who unjustly persecute us are going to have a bitter reward indeed.


----------



## Big Fitz

Sunni Man said:


> Valerie said:
> 
> 
> 
> It's never been a big issue before because most people don't usually go around masking their faces everywhere they go the way Muslims do.  Why do Muslims feel so put upon for having to show their face in public places?  Why do they have to pretend as if it's an affront to their religion?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Muslims are being besieged by non Muslims all over the world.
> 
> Muslim countries are being invaded and occupied on a regular basis.
> 
> Women being told they must conform to certain dress codes.
> 
> Even here in the US towns changing zoning codes to prevent Mosques from being built.
> 
> And Quran's being burned For no reason other than spite.
> 
> Even your use of the word "pretend" in your last sentence displays contempt towards Muslims.
> 
> 
> But on the up side; all this is doing is making the Islamic community pull together and grow stronger everyday.
> 
> Have no doubt that we will prevail in the end.
> 
> And those who unjustly persecute us are going to have a bitter reward indeed.
Click to expand...

Should we start a list of islam's sins against the rest of the world?


----------



## Sunni Man

Start any list that you want.

I could care less.


----------



## PlagueCat

France is doin a helluva job keeping islamic sphere in check within the national boundaries.
How about erecting a church in Saoudi Arabia for a friggn change?


----------



## Sunni Man

PlagueCat said:


> France is making a helluva job keeping islamic sphere at check within the national boundaries.
> How about erecting a church in Saoudi Arabia for a friggn change?



France is just pissing in the wind.

The Muslim population will continue to increase.

And Islam will continue to grow.


Question: if they built a Church in Saudi Arabia would you attend services there?


----------



## Valerie

Sunni Man said:


> Valerie said:
> 
> 
> 
> It's never been a big issue before because most people don't usually go around masking their faces everywhere they go the way Muslims do.  Why do Muslims feel so put upon for having to show their face in public places?  Why do they have to pretend as if it's an affront to their religion?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Muslims are being besieged by non Muslims all over the world.
> 
> Muslim countries are being invaded and occupied on a regular basis.
> 
> Women being told they must conform to certain dress codes.
> 
> Even here in the US towns changing zoning codes to prevent Mosques from being built.
> 
> And Quran's being burned For no reason other than spite.
> *
> Even your use of the word "pretend" in your last sentence displays contempt towards Muslims.*
> 
> 
> But on the up side; all this is doing is making the Islamic community pull together and grow stronger everyday.
> 
> *Have no doubt that we will prevail in the end.*
> 
> And those who unjustly persecute us are going to have a bitter reward indeed.
Click to expand...




My contempt is toward the dishonesty...and you.  


Muslim women are not "being told they must conform to certain dress codes".  Rather, all citizens are being required to show their face in public places.  Muslims are still free to "dress" however they wish, but they must simply unveil their identity in public.  That is, no one, not even a Muslim woman, is exempt form that reasonable citizenship requirement.  The burka is not "outlawed" yet people keep _pretending_ it is.  Muslims are free to practice their religion and veil themselves privately and even veil their faces in public during a religious ceremony.  



I've posted the entire law verbatim and the link is in this thread so you can go right ahead and feel free to prove me wrong.


----------



## Sunni Man

It's blatant discrimination directed toward Muslims for no other reason but hate and spite.


----------



## Valerie

Sunni Man said:


> It's blatant discrimination directed toward Muslims for no other reason but hate and spite.


----------



## Big Fitz

Sunni Man said:


> It's blatant discrimination directed toward Muslims for no other reason but hate and spite.



hmmmmm yeahhhhh...


----------



## PlagueCat

Sunni Man said:


> It's blatant discrimination directed toward Muslims for no other reason but hate and spite.



Yeen the brightest coin in the purse, are you?
It's obvious ou're uttlerly ignorant about the history of France. This country has made an  oath to defend its secularism at all costs. Since the milestones of 1789 and 1901 (loi sur la laïcité), secularism has to reign suprem over the nation.
I'm sorry for you this includes Islam (religion of peace ), but it is like it is: if you don't cope with that as a french muslim and won't comply to the law, then you'll better get the fuck out of the country.

France, you love it or you leave it...


----------



## editec

Sunni Man said:


> editec said:
> 
> 
> 
> And so, for example, no woman could wear a minishirt to the Mosque, right?
> 
> Well...do the FRENCH not have that _same right_ to define proper behavior within their national borders?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Not a great example.
> 
> I doubt a woman would be allowed to worship in a Church wearing a mini skirt either.
> 
> The French law forbids a woman from wearing a burka just walking down the street minding her own business.
> 
> How can that be defined as improper behavior?
Click to expand...

 
Improper behavior is entirely an arbitrary decision, that's how.

How can walking down the street wearing a miniskirt is Saudi Arabia be defined as improper behavior?

It is because the majority of people in that nation DEFINE what they consider "proper".

Again, I PRESUME you grant S.A. the right to define "proper behavior" in their land and if you do, then you really ought to ask yourself why you think the FRENCH do not have that SAME right.


----------



## editec

Sunni Man said:


> RetiredGySgt said:
> 
> 
> 
> You have to be kidding right? Women in this Country can and do go to church in what ever dress they want, INCLUDING short shorts and mini skirts.
> 
> 
> 
> No wonder Christianity has become so weak and Church attendance is falling.
> 
> When they allow women to dress like sluts and enter the Church's to worship.
Click to expand...

 

Chistendom also has plenty nuclear weapons and a history of using them when threatened.  So I wouldn't count on the weakness of Chistendom too much if I were you, lad.

What Christendom is capable of when it decides that its back is to the wall isn't something any of us wants to see.

Truly an all out effort to crush Islam would make that _shock and awe_ event that Saddam's people felt look like a day in the park.

Islam does not want to wake up the sleeping giant of Christendom.


----------



## Sunni Man

editec said:


> Improper behavior is entirely an arbitrary decision, that's how.
> 
> How can walking down the street wearing a miniskirt is Saudi Arabia be defined as improper behavior?
> 
> It is because the majority of people in that nation DEFINE what they consider "proper".
> 
> Again, I PRESUME you grant S.A. the right to define "proper behavior" in their land and if you do, then you really ought to ask yourself why you think the FRENCH do not have that SAME right.


Simple answer.

France claims to be a Democracy and advocates individual freedom.

Unless your are a Muslim.   


Saudi Arabia is not a democracy.

And it's law's are determined by Sharia Law and the King.


----------



## Sunni Man

editec said:


> Islam does not want to wake up the sleeping giant of Christendom.



By the time Christendom wake up from it's false sense of security.

It will be to late in the game to make a difference.


----------



## Big Fitz

Sunni Man said:


> editec said:
> 
> 
> 
> Islam does not want to wake up the sleeping giant of Christendom.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> By the time Christendom wake up from it's false sense of security.
> 
> It will be to late in the game to make a difference.
Click to expand...

Oh it's so nice when you come clean about your true intentions for all non muslims.


----------



## Sunni Man

Big Fitz said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> editec said:
> 
> 
> 
> Islam does not want to wake up the sleeping giant of Christendom.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> By the time Christendom wake up from it's false sense of security.
> 
> It will be to late in the game to make a difference.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Oh it's so nice when you come clean about your true intentions for all non muslims.
Click to expand...

He was talking about Christendom getting together and attacking Muslims world wide.

All I was saying that in the near future the Islamic world will be too strong for the West to dominate Muslims like it has in the past.

I said nothing about Islam attacking Christendom or non Muslims.


----------



## Big Fitz

Sunni Man said:


> Big Fitz said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> 
> By the time Christendom wake up from it's false sense of security.
> 
> It will be to late in the game to make a difference.
> 
> 
> 
> Oh it's so nice when you come clean about your true intentions for all non muslims.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> He was talking about Christendom getting together and attacking Muslims world wide.
> 
> All I was saying that in the near future the Islamic world will be too strong for the West to dominate Muslims like it has in the past.
> 
> I said nothing about Islam attacking Christendom or non Muslims.
Click to expand...

Riiiiiiiight.  Protest a bit more dear lady.


----------



## syrenn

PlagueCat said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> 
> It's blatant discrimination directed toward Muslims for no other reason but hate and spite.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yeen the brightest coin in the purse, are you?
> It's obvious ou're uttlerly ignorant about the history of France. This country has made an  oath to defend its secularism at all costs. Since the milestones of 1789 and 1901 (loi sur la laïcité), secularism has to reign suprem over the nation.
> I'm sorry for you this includes Islam (religion of peace ), but it is like it is: if you don't cope with that as a french muslim and won't comply to the law, then you'll better get the fuck out of the country.
> 
> France, you love it or you leave it...
Click to expand...



I agree. If they dont like it they can move go back to where ever it is that they came from.


----------



## Sunni Man

syrenn said:


> I agree. If they dont like it they can move go back to where ever it is that they came from.



Why do you want me to move back to Texas??


----------



## syrenn

Sunni Man said:


> editec said:
> 
> 
> 
> Improper behavior is entirely an arbitrary decision, that's how.
> 
> How can walking down the street wearing a miniskirt is Saudi Arabia be defined as improper behavior?
> 
> It is because the majority of people in that nation DEFINE what they consider "proper".
> 
> Again, I PRESUME you grant S.A. the right to define "proper behavior" in their land and if you do, then you really ought to ask yourself why you think the FRENCH do not have that SAME right.
> 
> 
> 
> Simple answer.
> 
> *France claims to be a Democracy and advocates individual freedom.*
> 
> Unless your are a Muslim.
> 
> 
> Saudi Arabia is not a democracy.
> 
> And it's law's are determined by Sharia Law and the King.
Click to expand...




All within the laws and customs of the land. 

Can we walk around naked here in the US?  You can at a nudist colony and in your own home. You cannot walk naked down a public street.


----------



## syrenn

Sunni Man said:


> syrenn said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I agree. If they dont like it they can move go back to where ever it is that they came from.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Why do you want me to move back to Texas??
Click to expand...



Do you wear a mask or just your wife?


----------



## Sunni Man

syrenn said:


> Do you wear a mask or just your wife?



Neither one has ever worn the veil.

It wasn't part of their countries custom or tradition.


----------



## Big Fitz

You realize that he's advocating the Muslim Brotherhood fabian style philosophy to make small changes using the law against itself in non-muslim countries till they collapse into islamic revolution.


----------



## syrenn

Sunni Man said:


> syrenn said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Do you wear a mask or just your wife?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Neither one has ever worn the veil.
> 
> It wasn't part of their countries custom or tradition.
Click to expand...



woohoo! So they would do just fine in france.


----------



## syrenn

Big Fitz said:


> You realize that he's advocating the Muslim Brotherhood fabian style philosophy to make small changes using the law against itself in non-muslim countries till they collapse into islamic revolution.




Yes, i do.


----------



## Big Fitz

Figured you would.  Now the question does Sunny realize he's doing that. Willing conspirator or useful idiot is the question.


----------



## syrenn

Big Fitz said:


> Figured you would.  Now the question does Sunny realize he's doing that. Willing conspirator or useful idiot is the question.




Yes, i do believe he does know.   And a bit of both i should think.


----------



## Sunni Man

Big Fitz said:


> You realize that he's advocating the Muslim Brotherhood *Fabian* style philosophy to make small changes using the law against itself in non-muslim countries till they collapse into islamic revolution.


I remember Fabian.  


[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qacdlN7UqWs&feature=youtube_gdata_player]YouTube - fabian turn me loose[/ame]


----------



## Big Fitz

Sunni Man said:


> Big Fitz said:
> 
> 
> 
> You realize that he's advocating the Muslim Brotherhood *Fabian* style philosophy to make small changes using the law against itself in non-muslim countries till they collapse into islamic revolution.
> 
> 
> 
> I remember Fabian.
> 
> 
> [ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qacdlN7UqWs&feature=youtube_gdata_player]YouTube - fabian turn me loose[/ame]
Click to expand...

Oh look.  he's halfwitty too.


----------



## hipeter924

Big Fitz said:


> You realize that he's advocating the Muslim Brotherhood fabian style philosophy to make small changes using the law against itself in non-muslim countries till they collapse into islamic revolution.


I would like to see the Muslim Brotherhood try, then again theocracy fell the first time round, if we need another enlightenment period to topple a new line of Muslim theocrats then so be it. 

PS: In the meantime western philosophy, science, literature, art, language and ideals will never fail, they are quite popular in Asia, even among the Chinese. America would find itself a third world nation void of intellectuals and totally stagnant (scientifically, culturally and technologically) if it ever became a theocracy, so we wouldn't really have long to wait for the collapse of Muslim Brotherhood styled theocracy in America.


----------



## Sunni Man

I believe that the Muslim Brotherhood is a grass roots organization that is mainly active in Egypt.


----------



## Big Fitz

Sunni Man said:


> I believe that the Muslim Brotherhood is a grass roots organization that is mainly active in Egypt.


If you think I'm going to be molified by that pap, you've another think coming.  I've seen about their history back from when they were in league with the Ottoman Turks playing mock crusades against the Jews and westerners in the Transjordan period.


----------



## PlagueCat

Sunni Man said:


> By the time Christendom wake up from it's false sense of security.
> 
> It will be to late in the game to make a difference.



Your religion will be met with fierce resistance.
Don't think Westerners have lost their spine. France is leading the way against what proselytism Islam is breeding within the cities of the West. French folks are having enough of halal stuff, mosques, veils, you name it. 
I'm half american half french, and I can tell you France is spearheading the counterstrike, right here right now, whilst America still dozes. 
But time will pry all eyes open, eventually.


----------



## Sunni Man

PlagueCat said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> 
> By the time Christendom wake up from it's false sense of security.
> 
> It will be to late in the game to make a difference.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Your religion will be met with fierce resistance.
> Don't think Westerners have lost their spine. France is leading the way against what proselytism Islam is breeding within the cities of the West. French folks are having enough of halal stuff, mosques, veils, you name it.
> I'm half american half french, and I can tell you France spearheading the counterstrike, right here right now, while America still dozes.
Click to expand...


 It won't be long till France surrenders.

 It's what their best known for.


----------



## PlagueCat

Sunni Man said:


> PlagueCat said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> 
> By the time Christendom wake up from it's false sense of security.
> 
> It will be to late in the game to make a difference.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Your religion will be met with fierce resistance.
> Don't think Westerners have lost their spine. France is leading the way against what proselytism Islam is breeding within the cities of the West. French folks are having enough of halal stuff, mosques, veils, you name it.
> I'm half american half french, and I can tell you France spearheading the counterstrike, right here right now, while America still dozes.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> It won't be long till France surrenders.
> 
> It's what their best known for.
Click to expand...


Yet again a blatant lack of knowledge regarding the history of France.
Why am I not surprised to find void and nothingness within the skull of an islamist zealot.
Go figure...


----------



## Sunni Man

France's biggest hero was Napoleon.

 And he got beat and exiled.

 France's performance  in WWI & WWII  

Ain't much to brag about either.


----------



## PlagueCat

Sunni Man said:


> France's biggest hero was Napoleon.
> 
> And he got beat and exiled.



Nothing lasts forever. Every one gets beat in the last chapter. Ask Cesar and Attila bout it.



> France's performance  in WWI & WWII


Ever heard of Verdun? Ever heard of the Marne cabs? Douaumont ringin a bell? Second Battle of Aisne?

France has actually won more battles and wars over the last six hundred years than any other country in Europe. But it takes a tad of education to grab knowledge of this, and I reckon you didn't study many topics out of the sharia related ones...


----------



## Jos

Sunni Man said:


> It won't be long till France surrenders.
> 
> It's what their best known for.



*French burka ban descends into farce*


> France's burka ban descended into farce when the first women to be summoned before a European court for illegally wearing the garments were refused entry, because they would not remove their face coverings.








French burka ban descends into farce - Telegraph


----------



## alexa

Jos said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> 
> It won't be long till France surrenders.
> 
> It's what their best known for.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *French burka ban descends into farce*
> 
> 
> 
> France's burka ban descended into farce when the first women to be summoned before a European court for illegally wearing the garments were refused entry, because they would not remove their face coverings.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> French burka ban descends into farce - Telegraph
Click to expand...


 I haven't read all this thread so sorry if I am repeating things but I think the concern over France's position is partly because so few women were wearing them, 367 according to Haaretz Report: Only 367 Muslim women in France wear full veil - Haaretz Daily Newspaper | Israel News


Because of this it suggests that this is rather an attack on Muslims, as despite it not being traditional Muslim dress, they are the ones wearing them.

A rich Muslim has already agreed to pay all the fines and I bet a whole lot more Muslim women are wearing them now, just to let France know.

Someone said in the first page, France was the only country doing this.  Sadly no, Belgium is also pursuing doing it.

I don't like the things.  I don't know anyone who does.  They are against the dress code for certain job descriptions here so that limits their use but if someone is wearing one through choice and going about their business, I cannot see how it is for me or the government to say what they should wear.

367 women wearing burkas or nijabs are going to have no effect on France.


----------

