# Zionism and The Iranian Problem



## Annie

I posted this on another thread, but didn't seem to get any takers, so I stared anew:

I've been seeing a lot of call outs regarding anti-semitism and anti-Palestinians. Often the reply is that the poster doesn't hate Jews, but rather Zionists. Then there are the accusations that the Israelis are repeating Nazi behaviors. How? Lord knows the arguments of 'stolen lands' from the wars are enough to make any sane person lift up their arms in exasperation; however, if every inch was returned, no conditions, would that make it ok? Or is the real problem the existence of any Jewish land? Is the real argument that a two state solution is wrong, that their should ONLY be Palestinian land? 

What do you consider Zionism? Why is it so offensive? Do you believe a two state solution is viable? If yes, under what conditions? If no, why not? What about the right of return? If yes, why? If no, what is wrong with it?


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## onedomino

Kathianne said:
			
		

> Is the real argument that a two state solution is wrong, that their should ONLY be Palestinian land?


This is the Hamas, Hezbollah, etc., position. And while these Palestinian murderers indiscriminately kill innocent Israelis, Shogun and his supporters bemoan the treatment of those who backup the killing. Not once in any of Shogun's nauseatingly rabid spew on this board did I read anything about the way Palestinians rejected the Israelis when they were offered 99 percent of what they demanded at Camp David, including a Palestinian State and the return of almost all occupied land. Not once did I read condemnation of Palestinians resuming the murder campaign after Camp David. No the 99 percent the Palestinians received at Camp David was not good enough. Instead they, and their supporters, seek to erase Israel.


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## Diuretic

A two-state solution seems to me to be the only solution.  How to get there and how to make it work are the problems of course.


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## Annie

onedomino said:


> This is the Hamas, Hezbollah, etc., position. And while these Palestinian murderers indiscriminately kill innocent Israelis, Shogun and his supporters bemoan the treatment of those who backup the killing. Not once in any of Shogun's nauseatingly rabid spew on this board did I read anything about the way Palestinians rejected the Israelis when they were offered 99 percent of what they demanded at Camp David, including a Palestinian State and the return of almost all occupied land. Not once did I read condemnation of Palestinians resuming the murder campaign after Camp David. No the 99 percent the Palestinians received at Camp David was not good enough. Instead they, and their supporters, seek to erase Israel.



Well that seems to be what I've read too. But perhaps we're wrong in what was meant. I certainly want to know what they see as 'so evil' about Zionism, since that seems to be the crux of their argument.


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## Annie

Diuretic said:


> A two-state solution seems to me to be the only solution.  How to get there and how to make it work are the problems of course.



In order for a two state solution, one of the states would be Israel. Is that ok, or is that Zionism?


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## Dr Grump

It is not zionism. Zionism is Jewish nationalism taken to the extreme. It would be what communism is to the average left-leaning person, or fascism is to the average right-leaning person - the extreme. A two-party state is the only solution. But as has been proven (and will happen again), give them autonomy and they'll start eating themselves (a la Hamas and Fatah at the moment). Same thing will happen when or if the Kurds ever get a home state. Once they get it, there'll be infighting like you wouldn't believe..


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## midcan5

&#8220;The Origin of the Palestine-Israel Conflict&#8221;

Compiled, Edited, and Published by Jews for Justice in The Middle East

http://www.ifamericansknew.org/history/origin.html

Was Arab opposition to the arrival of Zionists based on inherent anti-Semitism or a real sense of danger to their community?

&#8220;The aim of the [Jewish National] Fund was &#8216;to redeem the land of Palestine as the inalienable possession of the Jewish people.&#8217;...As early as 1891, Zionist leader Ahad Ha&#8217;am wrote that the Arabs &#8220;understood very well what we were doing and what we were aiming at&#8217;...[Theodore Herzl, the founder of Zionism, stated]* &#8216;We shall try to spirit the penniless [Arab] population across the border by procuring employment for it in transit countries, while denying it employment in our own country... Both the process of expropriation and the removal of the poor must be carried out discreetly and circumspectly&#8217;...At various locations in northern Palestine Arab farmers refused to move from land the Fund purchased from absentee owners, and the Turkish authorities, at the Fund&#8217;s request, evicted them...The indigenous Jews of Palestine also reacted negatively to Zionism. They did not see the need for a Jewish state in Palestine and did not want to exacerbate relations with the Arabs.&#8221; John Quigley, &#8220;Palestine and Israel: A Challenge to Justice.&#8221;*


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## Annie

So a state for Israelis should NOT exist, isn't that what is being said by the 2 last posters?


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## Dr Grump

Kathianne said:


> So a state for Israelis should NOT exist, isn't that what is being said by the 2 last posters?



? I was one of those posters. Where in my post did I directly - hell, even indirectly - say that Israel should not exist?


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## Annie

Dr Grump said:


> ? I was one of those posters. Where in my post did I directly - hell, even indirectly - say that Israel should not exist?



You're correct, I jumped too quickly, but I suppose it was the definition of Zionism. 



> Zionism is Jewish nationalism taken to the extreme.


 I'm not sold on that. Besides I've had this argument with others before, nationalism and extremism is redundant. Nationalism is wrong, unless one changes the definition, doesn't matter the modifier thrown in front of it.


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## Annie

Dr Grump said:


> It is not zionism. Zionism is Jewish nationalism taken to the extreme. It would be what communism is to the average left-leaning person, or fascism is to the average right-leaning person - the extreme. A two-party state is the only solution. But as has been proven (and will happen again), give them autonomy and they'll start eating themselves (a la Hamas and Fatah at the moment). Same thing will happen when or if the Kurds ever get a home state. Once they get it, there'll be infighting like you wouldn't believe..



Why do you consider it Jewish nationalism taken to the extreme? From my readings it's the desire for the homeland and national sovereignty, not nationalism. Are you sure that it hasn't been spun into what you said? On the other hand, if it weren't for Hitler, would it have happened? IMHO, no. Neither the Jews nor 'The West' would have caused it's existence. Yet, the holocaust did happen, Israel was constructed, the people living there, "Not Palestine" were offered and refused their own state. They refused then, have since that time.


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## Diuretic

Kathianne said:


> In order for a two state solution, one of the states would be Israel. Is that ok, or is that Zionism?



I have said - I think here, but no matter I'm happy to restate it - that Israel has a right to exist.  Given that then I have to say that the other state must be Palestine.  Now, getting to that point is difficult enough of course but working out the details is horrendous.  But I can't see any other solution.  If someone brings up dismantling Israel as a state, no, it's unjust.


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## Annie

Diuretic said:


> I have said - I think here, but no matter I'm happy to restate it - that Israel has a right to exist.  Given that then I have to say that the other state must be Palestine.  Now, getting to that point is difficult enough of course but working out the details is horrendous.  But I can't see any other solution.  If someone brings up dismantling Israel as a state, no, it's unjust.



For some reason I'm unsurprised with your reply. Perhaps because I think you rational?


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## Diuretic

On Zionism - I was under the impression that it was a movement that held the establishment of Israel as its objective.  Looks like it worked.  If Zionism is now holding onto Israel then I suppose I have to say I support Zionism.  If it means trampling the rights of non-Jewish Israelis or of grabbing land outside the current bounds of Israel then I don't support Zionism.


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## Diuretic

Kathianne said:


> For some reason I'm unsurprised with your reply. Perhaps because I think you rational?



I must be having one of my better days then


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## Annie

Diuretic said:


> I must be having one of my better days then



Yeah, I'd say with the last 2 of your posts in this thread, we are on the same wavelength, so of course you are rational.


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## Annie

With few exceptions, these questions are being ignored by those most opposed to US Israeli policy and what is coming out of Israel.


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## Shogun

onedomino said:


> This is the Hamas, Hezbollah, etc., position. And while these Palestinian murderers indiscriminately kill innocent Israelis, Shogun and his supporters bemoan the treatment of those who backup the killing. Not once in any of Shogun's nauseatingly rabid spew on this board did I read anything about the way Palestinians rejected the Israelis when they were offered 99 percent of what they demanded at Camp David, including a Palestinian State and the return of almost all occupied land. Not once did I read condemnation of Palestinians resuming the murder campaign after Camp David. No the 99 percent the Palestinians received at Camp David was not good enough. Instead they, and their supporters, seek to erase Israel.



funny, were I to return the automatic sentiment implied in your post.. well, we all know what the process is.


In fact, chances are you just don't catch my posts or choose not to reply.  Say, when I posted a thread about Iranian students rising up where was your input regarding this positive swing?  When I've posted threads showing peaceful relations between pals and jews WHERE WAS YOUR INPUT?  When I posted threads showing how christians, muslims and jews lived together in peace in Lebenon WHERE WAS YOUR INPUT?  But hey, if it makes your case easier by assuming that I hate israel...


I've posted viable solutions to this issue before.  Dig em up.  If you want to point a finger at me you might want to make sure that your accusations come close to hitting the target.  Who the fuck else ever suggested giving Texas to the jews for a homeland?  Does this sound like such a fucking jew hating antisemite?  GIVING up an entire American state (land owned by the US instead of random other indigenous people) so that the jews can have a homeland SURE DOES validate the big "A" word that you are tapdancing around.  It's not that there IS a homeland for the jews that pisses me off.  It's what crimes against humanity some jews are capalbe of ignoring for the sake of zion that pisses me off.  The IRONY of your own fucking persecution being the icing on this double shit-filled cake.  Now, if Israel had ANY desire for peace they would have invested in the pals instead of trying to cram ONE MORE JEW within its border for the sake of some demographic population war  If Israel were ANYTHING CLOSE to a western democracy there would be NO ethnic criteria in citizenship participation.  I'll remind you, WE AMERICANS DON:T TELL YOU JEWS THAT THIS IS NOT YOUR HOMELAND.  If Israel cannot behave in kind then it is no better than Iran; it's favored excuse for war.

You feel special because the holocaust gave your ethnicity a blank check in the 20th century.  That blank check doesn't include grinding pals into the heal of your fucking quest for a nation.  ESPECIALLY considering the fact that pals have every much of a valid complaint against you as you have an ancient claim to the land.  Instead of proving the benevolence of the west, OF WHOME YOU ENJOPY THE TOTAL SUPPORT OF, you make weak assed excuses for the shitty treatment of other humans.  Well, you werent the first to do the same thing.  Germany BEAT you to it.  If sustaining israel means perpetuating crimes against humanity then zionism has become wrong.  If zionism were merely the hope for a homeland withouth having to step on the necks of non-jews to accomplish such then there would be NO problem with Israel.  If Israel were not hellbent on racist policies that the US would NEVER get away with there would be no problem with israel.


You lame bastards that insist that i simply dont' want the jews to have a homeland are exactly why zionist has become a dirty word.  YOUR OWN FUCKING TESTIMONY proves my point.  You would sooner call me a jew hating antisemite than come REMOTELY CLOSE to acknowledging the treatment of pals without some retarded fucking mention of the action of a SEVERE minority of pals. * HOW MANY ARTICLES FROM NEUTRAL SOURCES DID I POST IN THE LAST THREAD KATH?  HOW MANY ZIONISTS REACTED IN KIND?* HELL, the next jewish criminal should trigger a wide scale rounding up of all of Americas jews?  No?  Ya THINK?  But, when it comes to israel?  Well, of COURSE less than 100 kassam rockets justifies the marginalization of THE ENTIRE FUCKING POPULATION of pals!  Just like the Watts Riots justifies.. no wait, WE don't allow that kind of shit in the west.

You want to know why zionism is wrong?  Read the audacity of your own posts and put your words in a germans mouth circa 1941 and spare this goyim your side-stepping accusation of hatred.


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## onedomino

Could your response have anything less to do with my post? Your hateful and disgusting use of language is truly offensive and reflects the low quality of your thought. Your foaming-at-the-mouth hysteria over the past couple of days contained no balance whatsoever, and I suppose that it what your anti Jewish, anti Israel propaganda intended. You dig up your own posts. They're out near the cesspool.


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## Shogun

There you go, Gunny.  THERES my example.

onedomino, I don't give a FUCK if you don't like my vocabulary.  I'm not twisting your arm to read or reply to my posts.  Considering your lame ass posts in these particular threads it really is no skin off of my nutsack what you think about the quality of my thoughts. Indeed, you own position says much about the quality of your own cognitive ability so you might want to put that sword down. It's a SHOCKER that a zionist would LABEL something as propaganda (or antisemite, for that matter) WITHOUT EVEN THE SLIGHTEST EFFORT IN BACKING UP YOUR ASSERTION.  Indeed, your intellectual laziness and total lack of effort in backing up your ignorant accusations pretty much convey everything that needs to be said about your position and willingness to see beyond your yarmulke.

Israel, Texas motherfucker.  Search the forum or eat a nice big pile of dog shit.


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## Annie

Shogun said:


> funny, were I to return the automatic sentiment implied in your post.. well, we all know what the process is...
> 
> ... * HOW MANY ARTICLES FROM NEUTRAL SOURCES DID I POST IN THE LAST THREAD KATH?  HOW MANY ZIONISTS REACTED IN KIND?* HELL, the next jewish criminal should trigger a wide scale rounding up of all of Americas jews?  No?  Ya THINK?  But, when it comes to israel?  Well, of COURSE less than 100 kassam rockets justifies the marginalization of THE ENTIRE FUCKING POPULATION of pals!  Just like the Watts Riots justifies.. no wait, WE don't allow that kind of shit in the west.
> 
> You want to know why zionism is wrong?  Read the audacity of your own posts and put your words in a germans mouth circa 1941 and spare this goyim your side-stepping accusation of hatred.



I too have posted about the Iranian students protests regarding the mullahs, including the gate storming a week or so ago. I've also posted on Palestinians that are being persecuted by the civil war going on there, but hey, whatever.

Of course, that has zip to do with any of this, my questions were:



> if every inch was returned, no conditions, would that make it ok? Or is the real problem the existence of any Jewish land? Is the real argument that a two state solution is wrong, that their should ONLY be Palestinian land?
> 
> What do you consider Zionism? Why is it so offensive? Do you believe a two state solution is viable? If yes, under what conditions? If no, why not? What about the right of return? If yes, why? If no, what is wrong with it?


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## onedomino

Shogun said:


> There you go, Gunny.  THERES my example.
> 
> onedomino, I don't give a FUCK if you don't like my vocabulary.  I'm not twisting your arm to read or reply to my posts.  Considering your lame ass posts in these particular threads it really is no skin off of my nutsack what you think about the quality of my thoughts. Indeed, you own position says much about the quality of your own cognitive ability so you might want to put that sword down. It's a SHOCKER that a zionist would LABEL something as propaganda (or antisemite, for that matter) WITHOUT EVEN THE SLIGHTEST EFFORT IN BACKING UP YOUR ASSERTION.  Indeed, your intellectual laziness and total lack of effort in backing up your ignorant accusations pretty much convey everything that needs to be said about your position and willingness to see beyond your yarmulke.
> 
> Israel, Texas motherfucker.  Search the forum or eat a nice big pile of dog shit.


Just look at this low-life post. What a freak show. He cannot string five words together without displaying the foul language oozing through his tiny mind. Do you imagine he speaks like this in the real world, or does he save his despicable slime for the board? The hatred just piles up in his posts like guano in a dark cave.


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## Annie

onedomino said:


> Just look at this low-life post. What a freak show. He cannot string five words together without displaying the foul language oozing through his tiny mind. Do you imagine he speaks like this in the real world, or does he save his despicable slime for the board? The hatred just piles up in his posts like guano in a dark cave.



Yeah, I tried to respond to him at school, couldn't. I was trying to *** all the vulgarities, but not enough for the filters. I can handle that, just wish he didn't attack posts that are my opinion, like I'm going to get banned for doing so. In all fairness, he's not banned anyone that I know of, just pretty aggressive in responses. No harm, no foul.


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## Avatar4321

Diuretic said:


> A two-state solution seems to me to be the only solution.  How to get there and how to make it work are the problems of course.



im not sure that really works though. I dont think having two states would create peace between them. 

The only real solution is changing the hearts of every single person so they no longer want to fight with their fellow man. Needless to say thats not an easy task.


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## William Joyce

What galls me about the Jews is that they are insistent to the point of genocide about their OWN right to a religiously and ethnically exclusive nation, but BREAK THEIR NECKS screaming about white gentiles even thinking such thoughts.  I wouldn't be as hot as I am if they were one but not the other, but how in the hell can they mentally process being both?


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## Diuretic

Avatar4321 said:


> im not sure that really works though. I dont think having two states would create peace between them.
> 
> The only real solution is changing the hearts of every single person so they no longer want to fight with their fellow man. Needless to say thats not an easy task.



Yes, that would be a real solution.  The two-state solution might work if Hamas were out of the picture (and Fatah isn't much better, being riddled with corruption).  I obviously don't have the solution but it seems to me if there were a relationship between the two states where one needed the other, that might do it.


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## DiogenesDog

I believe that one among us here needs to understand the broad gradations of Judacia across the spectrum of Ashkenazim to Sephardi and from Falasha to Kaifeng Jews. 

Zionism is a political movement.  It is as Christian as it is Jewish.  

Word.

I AM


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## Shogun

Kathianne said:


> I too have posted about the Iranian students protests regarding the mullahs, including the gate storming a week or so ago. I've also posted on Palestinians that are being persecuted by the civil war going on there, but hey, whatever.
> 
> Of course, that has zip to do with any of this, my questions were:



Like I've said, IM the guy who has posted the idea of giving Texas to the jews for a homeland.  Not only does this prove that I'm not at all opposed to an israel but I invite you to ponder if the TEXANS would act any different than the pals. Search for it.

Hey, I'm glad you find those articles too.  My point was, however, that the people who are quickest to POUNCE on the slightest criticism of israel with a bckpack full of blame for muslims sure as hell aren't looking for any solution other than using the US in a proxy war and belittling the humanity in Palestine.  

However, I have to say that it's pretty valid to question why an ethnic population in israel, where ever it may be located, is allowed to maintain a racial requirement when no one else in the west can do the same.  This was the point of Olmerts statement about creating a pal state or losing the jewish identity in israel. without it, israel would have to desegregate like the United States has.  Scary, I know, but I guess we can either recognize the same patterns found in our own example or pull a zionist card and pretend that it's apples and oranges.


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## Shogun

onedomino said:


> Just look at this low-life post. What a freak show. He cannot string five words together without displaying the foul language oozing through his tiny mind. Do you imagine he speaks like this in the real world, or does he save his despicable slime for the board? The hatred just piles up in his posts like guano in a dark cave.




I enjoy my vocab, sucker.  If you can't take it I suggest you take your lillipop back to the kiddie pool.


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## Annie

Shogun said:


> Like I've said, IM the guy who has posted the idea of giving Texas to the jews for a homeland.  Not only does this prove that I'm not at all opposed to an israel but I invite you to ponder if the TEXANS would act any different than the pals. Search for it.
> 
> Hey, I'm glad you find those articles too.  My point was, however, that the people who are quickest to POUNCE on the slightest criticism of israel with a bckpack full of blame for muslims sure as hell aren't looking for any solution other than using the US in a proxy war and belittling the humanity in Palestine.
> 
> However, I have to say that it's pretty valid to question why an ethnic population in israel, where ever it may be located, is allowed to maintain a racial requirement when no one else in the west can do the same.  This was the point of Olmerts statement about creating a pal state or losing the jewish identity in israel. without it, israel would have to desegregate like the United States has.  Scary, I know, but I guess we can either recognize the same patterns found in our own example or pull a zionist card and pretend that it's apples and oranges.



Do you actually believe the bulk of the Palestinians would live 'in peace' with Israel? Their numbers alone would overwhelm. So I guess you are not for a two state solution?


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## Shogun

Kathianne said:


> Yeah, I tried to respond to him at school, couldn't. I was trying to *** all the vulgarities, but not enough for the filters. I can handle that, just wish he didn't attack posts that are my opinion, like I'm going to get banned for doing so. In all fairness, he's not banned anyone that I know of, just pretty aggressive in responses. No harm, no foul.



I would never ban someone for disagreeing with my opinion.  Hell, I didn't even return snowmans neg rep until his 4th or 5th offering.  I don't really need to regulate what my reply posts can pretty much make short work of.  Besides, I've always hated mods who take their authority way to seriously and and use it like a retributive sap. 

just sayin.


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## Annie

Shogun said:


> I would never ban someone for disagreeing with my opinion.  Hell, I didn't even return snowmans neg rep until his 4th or 5th offering.  I don't really need to regulate what my reply posts can pretty much make short work of.  Besides, I've always hated mods who take their authority way to seriously and and use it like a retributive sap.
> 
> just sayin.



That's why I added the last line. It's pretty intimidating though when you come back with 'fucking this and that', because of the topic. Anyways, not a problem. For the record, I don't think I've zinged you? I have to be pretty po'd to neg someone, you'd have to go the way of José.


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## actsnoblemartin

let me explain something about zionism. It basically means a homeland for the jews

the reason 6 million jews died was because they didnt have their own country.

You think if modern day israel existed in the 1940's 6 million jews would have been murdered.

Its absolute non sense to believe the jews dont deserve a home land

You cant be anti-zionist and pro jew in my opinion because, anti zionist means you want to scatter jews all over the world, where they wont be safe, and the anti semetic europeans and muslim countries would have them, and even if that happened, palestinians wouldnt stop whining and crying like little bitches.

This is not about the west bank, its about killing all jews, so the palestinians can have the newest country filled with abuses against women, and the 1-5 % non muslims living there.


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## doniston

actsnoblemartin said:


> let me explain something about zionism. It basically means a homeland for the jews
> 
> the reason 6 million jews died was because they didnt have their own country.
> 
> You think if modern day israel existed in the 1940's 6 million jews would have been murdered.
> 
> Its absolute non sense to believe the jews dont deserve a home land
> 
> You cant be anti-zionist and pro jew in my opinion because, anti zionist means you want to scatter jews all over the world, where they wont be safe, and the anti semetic europeans and muslim countries would have them, and even if that happened, palestinians wouldnt stop whining and crying like little bitches.
> 
> This is not about the west bank, its about killing all jews, so the palestinians can have the newest country filled with abuses against women, and the 1-5 % non muslims living there.


  By and large, your post is garbage.


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## Shogun

actsnoblemartin said:


> let me explain something about zionism. It basically means a homeland for the jews
> the reason 6 million jews died was because they didnt have their own country.
> You think if modern day israel existed in the 1940's 6 million jews would have been murdered.
> Its absolute non sense to believe the jews dont deserve a home land
> You cant be anti-zionist and pro jew in my opinion because, anti zionist means you want to scatter jews all over the world, where they wont be safe, and the anti semetic europeans and muslim countries would have them, and even if that happened, palestinians wouldnt stop whining and crying like little bitches.
> This is not about the west bank, its about killing all jews, so the palestinians can have the newest country filled with abuses against women, and the 1-5 % non muslims living there.




No, the reason 6 million jews died is because some asshole in germany rode the wave of racial disparity into power while selling the prospect of a PURE GERMAN RACE (sound familiar?) to germans who felt threatened economically and found it easy to scapegoat the jews.  Having a homeland in the Mid East wouldn't have kept jews in germany from the holocaust unless it is your opinion that the jews located around the world should uproot in a mass exodus to israel.  We all know that won't happen now and wouldnt have happened then.

Sure, the jews deserve a homeland...  but it's a masterful fistfucking of logic to insist that their homeland is more important than the homeland of the people being robbed of land to carve israel from.  Moreso, if YOU can support a racist standard which limits rights and opportunities according to ethnicity then you, sir, are no better than the Aryans who told your people to get the hell out of germany so they too could have an ethnic homeland.

If your opinion puts anti-zionism on par with jew hatred then good for you.  You are not the first to insist as much.

It's ironic that you talk about pals whining and bitching and crying like babies.  Signing every blank check opportunity for israel with The Holocaust is getting pretty fucking old too.  If you think that pals simply want to kill ALL jews then I guess you can understand why all those white germans were so quick to use the same tactic in dehumanizing their scapegoat.

Think, acts.  Try to be a human rather than strictly jewish.  You can't use the holocaust as an excuse to shit on another ethnicity.  It really diminishes the travesty that was the holocaust when you use it like a disposable diaper.


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## jillian

doniston said:


> By and large, your post is garbage.



says someone who hasn't a clue about the history of the issue.


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## Shogun

Can dirty goyim EVER have the same clue as the chosen, Jillian?


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## Foxfyre

William Joyce said:


> What galls me about the Jews is that they are insistent to the point of genocide about their OWN right to a religiously and ethnically exclusive nation, but BREAK THEIR NECKS screaming about white gentiles even thinking such thoughts.  I wouldn't be as hot as I am if they were one but not the other, but how in the hell can they mentally process being both?



The UK provided the land currently occupied by the Jews and the nation of Israel was established there because of the 3000+ year history and tradition of the Jewish people relative to that area and because the Jews had nowhere else to go.  Hitler had 6 million of them exterminated in Europe.  No numbers of Jews massacred in Russian pogroms are available but certainly the numbers are tens of thousands if not hundreds of thousands.  Here and there throughout the world the Jews were discriminated against and/or persecuted and/or threated as, at times, they have been throughout their history.

The Arabs protested immediately ignoring their own history of Jewish wars dating back for 4000 millenia.  Why should THEY be punished for the sins of Europe?  From day one of the re-establishment of Israel they wanted the Jews out and they, the Iranians, and the Egyptians plotted to run them out including amassing armies on Israeli borders.

In spite of all this, Israel has prospered as no other Middle Eastern nation has prospered, has produced the closest thing to a democracy that exists in that area, and far from being ethnically exclusive, have made full citizens with full rights and complete religious freedom of more than 100,000 Arabs living as Israeli citizens in that tiny country.

Israel realistically knows, however, that should hostile Arabs ever outnumber the Jews within Israel, Israel will no longer exist.

There is no indication that Israel is a bad neighbor to anybody, but they rightfully defend themselves against terrorists and those openly pledged to destroy Israel.

If the Palestinians would acknowledge Israel's right to exist, denounce (and control) the terrorists among them, and become good neighbors to Israel, there is no reason to believe that Israel would not be the best friend the Palestinians ever had.  It is pretty obvious that the Arab nations don't give a flying fig about the Palestinians or they would have already provided the Palestinians with a homeland.


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## jillian

Oh, he knows all that. But it's wasted on WJ because he's a KKK'er white supremacist type. If he didn't think Jews were the devil incarnate his head would probably explode.


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## Foxfyre

jillian said:


> Oh, he knows all that. But it's wasted on WJ because he's a KKK'er white supremacist type. If he didn't think Jews were the devil incarnate his head would probably explode.



Perhaps, but when somebody leaves a door THAT wide open, its pretty hard to pass up the chance to set the record straight.


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## jillian

Foxfyre said:


> Perhaps, but when somebody leaves a door THAT wide open, its pretty hard to pass up the chance to set the record straight.


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## Shogun

funny how the "record" seems to avoid every piece of posted evidence that I provide links to.

talking shit on william joyce probably proves the rhetoric!


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## jillian

Wow...defending the white supremacist KKK'er just to attempt to make an anti-Israel point, huh?

As for your *evidence*, until you answer what happens to Israel after you set up your little Palestinian Jew-free utopia, I'm really not interested in what you have to say.Though I will say your continued insistance on vilifying Israel and aggrandizing terrorists is pretty destructive to any perception of rationality in your posts. I have seen a lot of anti-Israel propaganda, though. And I will make fun of you cause you've become fairly useless.


----------



## Dr Grump

Shogun said:


> funny how the "record" seems to avoid every piece of posted evidence that I provide links to.
> 
> talking shit on william joyce probably proves the rhetoric!



Just like you avoid what should happen to the Jews in the ME other than "Send 'em to Texas". How nice of you. BTW, Jillian and I are very good friends , but if there is one contentious issue between us it is Israel. I certainly don't see them as pure than pure, but I don't think they should be pushed into the sea.
A couple of points I'd like you to answer directly. No mucking around or shifting the goal posts.
1) What do you think of the Palestians never missing an opportunity to miss an opportunity? They started the 1948 war and lost. Their decision, not Israels.
2) What do you think of the 100s of millions, if not billions, of aid dollars cyphered off by Arafat and his croniess IOW, do you think the Palesitinians have ANY responsibility for their predicament?


----------



## Shogun

1. The reaction of the pals in 48 is no different than the reaction of the American natives to manifest destiny.  Did THEY also give up the right to North America because they had the GALL to fight encroachment?  To not settle for trail of tears reservations granted by a usurping nation?  Would the US act the same or differently to a latino HISTORIC CLAIM to the American southwest?  Would TEXAS give up itself stoicly or would they react JUST LIKE the pals in 48?  If Texans lost a war for Texas do you think they would just wipe their hands on their pants and give up the fight?  Why do you expect Palestinians to do something that we both know damn well no one else will ever do?  why is Israels claim more relvant than the Latino claim to Atzlan?

As far as justifying the plight of pals due to their past refusal to gel with israel does this also justify the holocaust since germany made it pretty damn clear that jews should leave but refused to go?  I think that it's easier to blame pals for refusing to accept israel than it is acknowledging their VALID reasons for refusing to participate.  Did a single Palestinian cause nazi germany?  The holocaust?  Sure, we can blame europe for doling our israel but why should the Pals have even taken that bullet anyway?  Over some ANCIENT history?  I guess they should just be content with being subjugated as cockroaches because the terms set forth have been bogus?  Would the US be thankful just to have norther California back if it ACCEPTS the validity of Atzlan?  You can refuse to walk a mile in their shoes if it makes isreal easier to swallow...  But let's stop pretending that any offerings since '48 have been anything other than a soft handed, unapologetic insult for giving pals the Canaan treatment.


2. I think it's easier to assume Pal guilt than follow the money trail.  do you also feel that Iraqis or any African nation, as a whole people, is similarly deserving of their situation considering the BILLIONS of dollars spend which has since disappeared?  What support, besides token efforts, hae the Pals enjoyed exactly?  Do they get military support like israel?  Do they get TRADE support like israel?  Are they offered legitimate claim to National Resources like israel?  So we've thrown money at strongmen.  WHERE ELSE can you see that approach falling on its face?  Can you tell me how THOSE populations DESERVE their predicament because of the action of a stark minority of scandalous people?  So, are you suggesting that they DESERVE to be disenfranchised from the democratic process because they didn't vote how we wanted them to vote?  


Hey, I can handle being taken to task for my posts.. I'm just wondering if any single blind israel supporter wants to stoop down to my level and start providing evidence and sources.  It's one thing to SAY Israel has given pals every opportunity but it's some other beast entirely to actually back that shit up.  Give me some specific examples and I'll ask you questions that put you in a similar role and we'll see just how benevolent israel has been to those it kicked the fuck out for the sake of a jewish homeland.


----------



## AllieBaba

If we're going to compare Pals to Indians, then maybe one could suggest that they take the Indian lead....

Recognize defeat, take what is offered and use peaceful means to obtain success and strength.


----------



## Shogun

You are not too familiar with the Indian wars that last well up to the turn of the 1900's are you?


1622 to 1890 sure does allow plenty of time for pals to "follow the native lead", doesn't it?


----------



## AllieBaba

They were defeated, though. Irrevocably and without question.


----------



## Shogun

oh well THAT justifies the travesty of manifest destiny!


Hey, the jews were DEFEATED by muslims or they would have been a jewish nation in israel pre-48...  Not so quick to rationalize might making right now, are you?


----------



## Dr Grump

Shogun said:


> 1. The reaction of the pals in 48 is no different than the reaction of the American natives to manifest destiny.  Did THEY also give up the right to North America because they had the GALL to fight encroachment?  To not settle for trail of tears reservations granted by a usurping nation?  Would the US act the same or differently to a latino HISTORIC CLAIM to the American southwest?  Would TEXAS give up itself stoicly or would they react JUST LIKE the pals in 48?  If Texans lost a war for Texas do you think they would just wipe their hands on their pants and give up the fight?  Why do you expect Palestinians to do something that we both know damn well no one else will ever do?  why is Israels claim more relvant than the Latino claim to Atzlan?
> 
> As far as justifying the plight of pals due to their past refusal to gel with israel does this also justify the holocaust since germany made it pretty damn clear that jews should leave but refused to go?  I think that it's easier to blame pals for refusing to accept israel than it is acknowledging their VALID reasons for refusing to participate.  Did a single Palestinian cause nazi germany?  The holocaust?  Sure, we can blame europe for doling our israel but why should the Pals have even taken that bullet anyway?  Over some ANCIENT history?  I guess they should just be content with being subjugated as cockroaches because the terms set forth have been bogus?  Would the US be thankful just to have norther California back if it ACCEPTS the validity of Atzlan?  You can refuse to walk a mile in their shoes if it makes isreal easier to swallow...  But let's stop pretending that any offerings since '48 have been anything other than a soft handed, unapologetic insult for giving pals the Canaan treatment.
> 
> 
> 2. I think it's easier to assume Pal guilt than follow the money trail.  do you also feel that Iraqis or any African nation, as a whole people, is similarly deserving of their situation considering the BILLIONS of dollars spend which has since disappeared?  What support, besides token efforts, hae the Pals enjoyed exactly?  Do they get military support like israel?  Do they get TRADE support like israel?  Are they offered legitimate claim to National Resources like israel?  So we've thrown money at strongmen.  WHERE ELSE can you see that approach falling on its face?  Can you tell me how THOSE populations DESERVE their predicament because of the action of a stark minority of scandalous people?  So, are you suggesting that they DESERVE to be disenfranchised from the democratic process because they didn't vote how we wanted them to vote?
> 
> 
> Hey, I can handle being taken to task for my posts.. I'm just wondering if any single blind israel supporter wants to stoop down to my level and start providing evidence and sources.  It's one thing to SAY Israel has given pals every opportunity but it's some other beast entirely to actually back that shit up.  Give me some specific examples and I'll ask you questions that put you in a similar role and we'll see just how benevolent israel has been to those it kicked the fuck out for the sake of a jewish homeland.



I am not a blind supporter of Israel by any means. The German analogy is a real bad one because Israelis are not indiscriminantly putting Pals to death like the Germans did to the Jews. A lot of the Israeli arrests and detaining of Pals is a REACTION to Pal's initial action. They do go OTT sometimes though. I am very highly critical of Sharon going to the Temple Mount. He holds direct responsibility for hte uprising that followed. Ditto the settlements on the West Bank.

As for the rest of your post, if you again, want to take it to its logical conclusion and compare it to the Indian, Judea was originally Jewish anyway until the dispora. So when does the Statute of Limitations run out for "we took you land, now you want it back" scenario? 20 years? 60 years? 100 years? 

They do not deserve their predicament, but they certainly need to put the blame where it is due, and it's not at Israel. Israle didn't take those billions of dollars of aid and ferret it away in Swiss bank accounts. And you know what, a people that is being oppressed by its own generally rise up agains their own a la US revolution, French Revolution, Russian Revolution. They don't blame a third party. You seem to give anything Arafat did a free pass. That's not fair or right in my book.

They can vote how they want to vote, but if voting for somebody leads to you having a shitty life, don't blame me. I don't see Dems harping on at Canada or Mexico for Bush, nor the Repubs doing the same during the Clinton years. The US is the grand master of "taking responsibility for ones own actions". Every problem the Pals have is down to Israel IYO. Maybe they should take responsibility themselves.

Was it good that people lost their land after 1948? No. But it wasn't good that all the European Jews lost their possessions and their lives. Nor was it good that they got kicked out of Judea in the first place and all their lands were confiscated and redistributed.

Let me give you a little history lesson. It's a minor one, but one that is a telling point IMO. Now, you know that the River Jordan runs from the Sea or Galilee to the Dead Sea, right? When Israel became Israel the banks on either side were arid. These days, large tracts of land on the Israeli side are no longer arid. On the Arab side, they still are. Sums up the situation. Jews get on with it, Arabs sit on their butts bleating (at a national level anyway).


----------



## Shogun

Tell a canaanite about the originality of judaism in the area.  Shall I quote the OT on this one?  Maybe there is a pattern to discern.


no, there are no xylon b chambers in israel.. but if you want to claim that israel is NOT a bastion of racism then you you obviously are not reading my posted evidence AND you are totally ignoring the dehumanized sentiment of those defending ANY action of israel.  After all, is subjigation of an ethnic population ONLY reprehensible if it reaches the nazi standard?Andrew Jackson didn't toss natives in fire pits either... Are you going to claim that theirs was not also a valid claim to marginalization?  In FACT, why can you rationalize the JEWISH reaction to aggression... but fall short of extending the same to pals?  Funny how one way this street is.


I'll return the same question...  if 60 years don't count then WHY DOES ANCIENT HISTORY THOUSANDS OF YEARS PAST all of a sudden become the standard by which we dole out nations?  How is THOUSANDS OF YEARS ago more relevant than 60 years?


and I'll reiterate my prior point:  If the Maliki government in iraq has played "let's make the money disapear" does that justify marginalizing iraqis?  Sure, blame arafat if you need an antagonist.  Arafat's actions don't validate treating the pals like shit.  We didn't marginalize the entire german population because they did NOT uprise against hitler.  The same with Japan.  Why is it ok to make a new standard against the pals?  Say, it's not because there is a blank check involved, is it?

Yes, they CAN vote for who they want to vote for.. but that sure as hell doesn't mean that their vote will count when the powers that be decide to invalidate election results, does it?  THEIR vote didn't lead to them having a shitty life.  The creation of a jewish nation caused that.  The apathy towards anyone conflicting with israels prerogative does that.  Enablers who don't really give a damn about non-jews in the mid east does that.  It is also viable to suggest that the jewish CHOICE to remain in germany despite being told to get out validates the holocaust?  I don't think so.  Maybe you have a different perspective.


and it wasn't the PALS who put the jews through the european holocaust.  It wasn't THOSE pals who originally kicked then out of that particular land.  You can't rob peter to pay paul and then label peter evil because he wants his money back.  yes, the historic treatment of jews is a shitty story.. But it is in no way shape or form a VALID reason to justify ignoring the pals for the sake of israel.  I invite you to answer my questions regarding Atzlan.  Where, exactly, do you thik that the US would accept a compromise?  Feel free to ignore this like the posted evidence if it's too tough to ponder or threatens to provoke an uncomfortable answer.

Oh hey!  it's the Emminant Domain of nations!  OBVIOUSLY then latinos DESERVE ATZLAN if they can make it better than those who live there now!  Right?  Hell, let's take that logic to Aftica and South America and go ahead and claim whatever we want, right?  I mean, if people aren't turning the land into Nasa Shuttle launch sites then they MUST NOT REALLY APPRICIATE LIVING THERE.


ps, way to generalize too, dude...  In case you ever wonder, blacks are shiftless and lazy and thats why they never made a dent in between the hundred years between the emancipation proclimation and the 1960s.  That should help facilitate why violence erupted and a black panther party formed.


----------



## José

> Originally posted by *AllieBaba*
> If we're going to compare Pals to Indians, then maybe one could suggest that they take the Indian lead....
> 
> Recognize defeat, take what is offered and use peaceful means to obtain success and strength.



Have you been sleeping for the last 7 years, Allie?

Palestine is only 2 or 3 american skyscrappers away from becoming a democratic region


----------



## Dr Grump

Shogun said:


> Tell a canaanite about the originality of judaism in the area.  Shall I quote the OT on this one?  Maybe there is a pattern to discern.
> 
> no, there are no xylon b chambers in israel.. but if you want to claim that israel is NOT a bastion of racism then you you obviously are not reading my posted evidence AND you are totally ignoring the dehumanized sentiment of those defending ANY action of israel.  After all, is subjigation of an ethnic population ONLY reprehensible if it reaches the nazi standard?Andrew Jackson didn't toss natives in fire pits either... Are you going to claim that theirs was not also a valid claim to marginalization?  In FACT, why can you rationalize the JEWISH reaction to aggression... but fall short of extending the same to pals?  Funny how one way this street is.
> 
> 
> I'll return the same question...  if 60 years don't count then WHY DOES ANCIENT HISTORY THOUSANDS OF YEARS PAST all of a sudden become the standard by which we dole out nations?  How is THOUSANDS OF YEARS ago more relevant than 60 years?
> 
> 
> and I'll reiterate my prior point:  If the Maliki government in iraq has played "let's make the money disapear" does that justify marginalizing iraqis?  Sure, blame arafat if you need an antagonist.  Arafat's actions don't validate treating the pals like shit.  We didn't marginalize the entire german population because they did NOT uprise against hitler.  The same with Japan.  Why is it ok to make a new standard against the pals?  Say, it's not because there is a blank check involved, is it?
> 
> Yes, they CAN vote for who they want to vote for.. but that sure as hell doesn't mean that their vote will count when the powers that be decide to invalidate election results, does it?  THEIR vote didn't lead to them having a shitty life.  The creation of a jewish nation caused that.  The apathy towards anyone conflicting with israels prerogative does that.  Enablers who don't really give a damn about non-jews in the mid east does that.  It is also viable to suggest that the jewish CHOICE to remain in germany despite being told to get out validates the holocaust?  I don't think so.  Maybe you have a different perspective.
> 
> 
> and it wasn't the PALS who put the jews through the european holocaust.  It wasn't THOSE pals who originally kicked then out of that particular land.  You can't rob peter to pay paul and then label peter evil because he wants his money back.  yes, the historic treatment of jews is a shitty story.. But it is in no way shape or form a VALID reason to justify ignoring the pals for the sake of israel.  I invite you to answer my questions regarding Atzlan.  Where, exactly, do you thik that the US would accept a compromise?  Feel free to ignore this like the posted evidence if it's too tough to ponder or threatens to provoke an uncomfortable answer.
> 
> Oh hey!  it's the Emminant Domain of nations!  OBVIOUSLY then latinos DESERVE ATZLAN if they can make it better than those who live there now!  Right?  Hell, let's take that logic to Aftica and South America and go ahead and claim whatever we want, right?  I mean, if people aren't turning the land into Nasa Shuttle launch sites then they MUST NOT REALLY APPRICIATE LIVING THERE.
> 
> 
> ps, way to generalize too, dude...  In case you ever wonder, blacks are shiftless and lazy and thats why they never made a dent in between the hundred years between the emancipation proclimation and the 1960s.  That should help facilitate why violence erupted and a black panther party formed.



Shogun, if you are going to accuse others of generalisation, then you better not do it yourself. And it is not a generalisation if it is true. What are the banks for the River Jordan like on the Arab side? Arable or arid? As I said, don't fob off a fact as a generalisation when a quick peek will suffice to know whether what i say is true or not.

I agree - how far do you go back?

And no, the Jews didn't cause hte Pals to be in the position they are in - a lot of it was caused by themselves. You still fail to blame them for ANYTHING that has led to their predicment. 

Do I think that the Jewish state is overtly racist due to its statutes regarding arabs. Yes. Is it justified? Yes. OMG justified racism!!! Well, how many races have Jews tried to wipe out in recent history? Any history for that matter? Who have tried to wipe of the Jews? Hitler tried as did the Tsars of Russia and many of the Dukes and Barons that ran Eastern Europe. The arabs and Persians are now trying to do it. You seem to take the moral high ground on a very complicated issue. I think of the four Jewish wars, Israel started one of them, and only then there was overwhelming evidence they were about to be attacked. Let me ask you this question: If Israel had lost any one of those wars, what do you think would have happened to Israel as a nation? We know that on every occasion those arab nations lost. Do they still exist today? Do you think, if they had won, the arabs would have given the same courtesy to the Jews?

Finally, you seem to show NO sign of giving ANY blame to the arabs. I do blame the Israelis for some of the mess that the situation is over there. Your blindness shows your bias and own racism. 

I know nothing of Altzan or its history. But you are right, where do you draw the line? I do know that the Palistinians have never missed an opportunity to miss an opportunity. 

Probably the biggest load of bull is the "creation of the Jewish state" caused them to have crappy lives. Really? Do you know anything of hte area pre 1948? Was it is a basition of love, first-world values, brilliant infrastructure and leading beacon in the ME?


----------



## Annie

Dr Grump said:


> Shogun, if you are going to accuse others of generalisation, then you better not do it yourself. And it is not a generalisation if it is true. What are the banks for the River Jordan like on the Arab side? Arable or arid? As I said, don't fob off a fact as a generalisation when a quick peek will suffice to know whether what i say is true or not.
> 
> I agree - how far do you go back?
> 
> And no, the Jews didn't cause hte Pals to be in the position they are in - a lot of it was caused by themselves. You still fail to blame them for ANYTHING that has led to their predicment.
> 
> Do I think that the Jewish state is overtly racist due to its statutes regarding arabs. Yes. Is it justified? Yes. OMG justified racism!!! Well, how many races have Jews tried to wipe out in recent history? Any history for that matter? Who have tried to wipe of the Jews? Hitler tried as did the Tsars of Russia and many of the Dukes and Barons that ran Eastern Europe. The arabs and Persians are now trying to do it. You seem to take the moral high ground on a very complicated issue. I think of the four Jewish wars, Israel started one of them, and only then there was overwhelming evidence they were about to be attacked. Let me ask you this question: If Israel had lost any one of those wars, what do you think would have happened to Israel as a nation? We know that on every occasion those arab nations lost. Do they still exist today? Do you think, if they had won, the arabs would have given the same courtesy to the Jews?
> 
> Finally, you seem to show NO sign of giving ANY blame to the arabs. I do blame the Israelis for some of the mess that the situation is over there. Your blindness shows your bias and own racism.
> 
> I know nothing of Altzan or its history. But you are right, where do you draw the line? I do know that the Palistinians have never missed an opportunity to miss an opportunity.
> 
> Probably the biggest load of bull is the "creation of the Jewish state" caused them to have crappy lives. Really? Do you know anything of hte area pre 1948? Was it is a basition of love, first-world values, brilliant infrastructure and leading beacon in the ME?



never mind, it won't work on those closed minded, which obviously is. The real problem is that most of the world is represented to a more or lesser degree.


----------



## actsnoblemartin

time to respond to another to my good friend,  shogun



Shogun said:


> No, the reason 6 million jews died is because some asshole in germany rode the wave of racial disparity into power while selling the prospect of a PURE GERMAN RACE (sound familiar?) to germans who felt threatened economically and found it easy to scapegoat the jews.
> 
> True
> 
> Having a homeland in the Mid East wouldn't have kept jews in germany from the holocaust unless it is your opinion that the jews located around the world should uproot in a mass exodus to israel.  We all know that won't happen now and wouldnt have happened then.
> 
> Me: Disagree, the jewish state would have allowed jews being persecuted in the europe in the 1930's to mass immigrate to israel, and un like the u.s. military would not sit by and allow a genocide of 6 million of their fellow people, and also unlike the u.s. would bomb the fucking train tracks. The u.s.a didnt give a fuck about the jews being murdered and they knew.
> 
> Sure, the jews deserve a homeland...  but it's a masterful fistfucking of logic to insist that their homeland is more important than the homeland of the people being robbed of land to carve israel from.
> 
> Me: i agree the land is not exclusively jewish, their were muslims, and christians here too, but the palestinians were offered a homeland, which they didnt have before 1948, and rejected it. lets atleast keep that in mind, and how do we have peace with hamas, islamic jihad, al aqsa martys brigade?
> 
> Moreso, if YOU can support a racist standard which limits rights and opportunities according to ethnicity
> 
> Me: thats simply not true, I do realize there is some racism against palestinians, but for the most part the problem is, their are many palestinians who are taught from birth to kill all jews, and who wont share the land, but will kill all jews, if possible.
> 
> then you, sir, are no better than the Aryans who told your people to get the hell out of germany so they too could have an ethnic homeland.
> 
> If your opinion puts anti-zionism on par with jew hatred then good for you.  You are not the first to insist as much.
> 
> Me: im not saying anti-zionists are racist or anti-semetic, im saying.. they are fooling themselves if they think jews dont deserve a homeland.
> 
> It's ironic that you talk about pals whining and bitching and crying like babies.  Signing every blank check opportunity for israel with The Holocaust is getting pretty fucking old too.
> 
> Me: if youre talking about jews acting like victims and obsessing about the holocaust, i agree.
> 
> If you think that pals simply want to kill ALL jews then I guess you can understand why all those white germans were so quick to use the same tactic in dehumanizing their scapegoat.
> 
> I never said every palestinian or all palestinian, i dont honestly believe that.
> 
> Think, acts.  Try to be a human rather than strictly jewish.  You can't use the holocaust as an excuse to shit on another ethnicity.  It really diminishes the travesty that was the holocaust when you use it like a disposable diaper.



me: im confused you think the jews, after wwII said, how can we shit on arabs, who have 57 countries. by the way you realize palestinians are nothing more then arabs.

me: i always appreciate your input mate.


----------



## Foxfyre

When it comes to accusing the Jews of being racist, one must sort of turn a blind eye to the more than 100,000 Arabs who live in Israel and enjoy full Israeli citizenship with all the benefits afforded citizens including having representation on the Knesset.  The one exception is that because of the likelihood of hostilities with neighbors, Arabs are not required to accept conscription into the Israeli Army and thus fight against other Arabs.

Islamic Arabs are allowed to fullly practice their religion in peace as are Christians and people of other faiths.  The Jews themselves represent many different nationalities and ethnic groups as well as different sects within Judaism.  Both racial and religious tolerance is alive and well in Israel.

The one area in which any accusation of racism can be levied against the Jews is in their immigration policy which strongly favors Jews, as does their intentional policy of keeping Jews in the majority in the government.  Israel after all was designated and dedicated as a place where specifically persecuted and displaced Jews could live and be in charge of their own destiny.  There is no place else on Earth like that for them.  There is the additional issue of Israeli treatment of Palestinians in occupied territories (Gaza, West Bank) but some would think the Palestinians should have full rights as Israeli citizens without declaring allegiance to Israel.  The Palestinians have refused to even afford Israel a right to exist, much less declare allegiance to Israel.

There is also accusations that Israel refused to allow former Arab residents who left in the 1940s to now return.  But because of the true racist hatred of the Arabs against the Jews, should the Jews become a minority either in their government or in their tiny nation, Israel will cease to exist.

It's as simple as that.


----------



## José

> Originally posted by *Foxfyre*
> One must sort of turn a blind eye to the more than 100,000 Arabs who live in Israel and enjoy full Israeli citizenship with all the benefits afforded citizens including having representation on the Knesset.



And what's the difference between israeli arabs and palestinians living in refugee camps?

Why is the first group made up by peaceful israeli citizens while the second is openly hostile to Israel?

Repeat after me, kitten:

E-X-I-L-E

Ironically, the same exile the founders of Israel complained about for 2000 years.


----------



## Foxfyre

José;632800 said:
			
		

> And what's the difference between israeli arabs and palestinians living in refugee camps?
> 
> Why is the first group made up by peaceful israeli citizens while the second is openly hostile to Israel?
> 
> Repeat after me, kitten:
> 
> E-X-I-L-E
> 
> Ironically, the same exile the founders of Israel complained about for 2000 years.



The Jews were forcibly evicted from their lands in Israel and then, over the centuries, from other places as well.  Most of the Palestinians left of their own free will to avoid being in the line of fire initiated by other Arabs.  Others were evicted when terrorists blowing up busloads of school children and suicide bombers blowing up crowded night clubs and markets were tolerated in their midst.  Then, after Israel secured the area and made it prosperous, the Palestinians wanted to return with full rights and privileges of citizenship even as they declare their allegiance to Hamas or Hezbollah both sworn to obliterate Israel from the face of the Earth.

And, while exiled Jews were eventually more or less accepted or at least tolerated in other places around the world and were able to live and prosper in other lands,  why is it that no Arab nations seem to want the Palestinians who live in refugee camps? 

Yes there are innocent Palestinians who have definitely been abused and mistreated on both sides in this absolutely assinine situation, but the Palestinians are committed to having a Palestine devoid of Jews, while the Jews are in a perilous situation that, rightly or wrongly, they believe requires severe policies necessary for their survival.

Tell me again how the Jewish exile and the Palestinian situation are comparable.


----------



## Shogun

maybe in another 2000 years it will be fashionable to defend the pals with blank checks instead.


----------



## José

> Originally posted by *Foxfyre*
> Tell me again how the Jewish exile and the Palestinian situation are comparable.



Totally comparable.

In my book, there is no difference between jews fleeing a warzone involving the Roman army and jewish zealots and palestinians leaving a warzone involving zionists and the surrounding arab countries.

And your ignorance about the palestinian national identity is abysmal.

The palestinian people DO NOT want to become egyptians, syrians and jordanians.

They want the world to recognise their right to live in their ancestral land.

They will fight to the last man against any arab country that tries to assimilate them and destroy their national identity.


----------



## José

Jesus Christ!!!!

Scooter has to pay me to do this job.

I feel like Kathianne teaching the basics of the Israeli/Palestinian issue to a bunch of little children who can't even find Palestine on a map of the Middle East : )


----------



## Foxfyre

Jos&#233;;632809 said:
			
		

> Totally comparable.
> 
> In my book, there is no difference between jews fleeing a warzone involving the Roman army and jewish zealots and palestinians leaving a warzone involving zionists and the surrounding arab countries.
> 
> And your ignorance about the palestinian national identity is abysmal.
> 
> The palestinian people DO NOT want to become egyptians, syrians and jordanians.
> 
> They want the world to recognise their right to live in their ancient land.
> 
> They will fight to the last man against any arab country that tries to assimilate them and destroy their national identity.



The Jews didn't 'flee the war zone'.  The Jews initiated the war to wrest Jersusalem away from the occupying Romans.  The Christians are the ones who fled the Jewish uprising around 70 A.D. resulting in the Romans defeating and ejecting the Jews from Jerusalem, and that was the beginning of the real rift between the Christians and Jews as the Jews thought the Christians to be cowards and traitors.  (Actually you can appreciate their take on that.)

Prior to the Roman occupation in the first century B.C., the Jews had been evicted and sent into exile by the Babylonians.  When the Persians defeated the Babylonians, the Jews were allowed to return to Jerusalem, but only the dedicated Zionists went back.  The others had already made their homes where they had been exiled elsewhere and were prospering and did not want to return to the harsh life in store for them in the war torn city.  Jerusalem was nevertheless the center of the Jewish world nevertheless.

The Jews also want the right to live on their ancient land that they believe was given to them by God and which was more recently given to them legally by the U.K. and the U.N. who "owned it" at the time.  The Palestinians would be living peacefully with the Jews right now had they not declared Holy War against Israel and pledged themselves to obliterate Israel from the face of the Earth.

They could live peacefully with Israel now if they would acknowledge Israel's right to exist, would cease hostilities against Israel and denounce terrorist tactics, and would choose to be good neighbors and friends.

There is plenty of room to criticize Israel's policies and tactics at various times over the past 60 years.  But Israel has not declared Holy War against anybody, and it has been forced into a defensive posture that would be unnecessary if the Arabs would allow the Jews a place in their world.


----------



## José

> Originally posted by *Foxfyre*
> They could live peacefully with Israel now if they would acknowledge Israel's right to exist, would cease hostilities against Israel and denounce terrorist tactics, and would choose to be good neighbors and friends.



Listen dude...

Don't take this the wrong way, but you, together with AllieBaba belong to a group of people I call the "what the hell is a palestinian refugee" crowd.

People who are completely clueless on this issue.

I'm preparing a megathread on this issue that will explain all the details of this century old conflict.

I still haven't made up my mind on the title of the thread but it will be either "*The Clash of the Titans*" or "*Palestine for dummies*".

Check out the Israel/Palestine section of the board every now and then and you won't be disapointed.


----------



## Shogun

prepare to wear the label, jose.  


I love this:

*And it is not a generalisation if it is true.*

 

I just wonder.. whyis it OK to generalize muslims... but jews?  How many times do you think David Duke ever made that same statement?

I would reply to you Dr. Gump but it seems that some users won't accept a mod debating aggressively.  I guess we've finally figured out how to put a cap on this topic once and for all.If it becomes necessary to shed my status I'll offer to finish this discussion with you.


----------



## Foxfyre

José;632814 said:
			
		

> Listen dude...
> 
> Don't take this the wrong way, but you, together with AllieBaba belong to a group of people I call the "what the hell is a palestinian refugee" crowd.
> 
> People who are completely clueless on this issue.
> 
> I'm preparing a megathread on this issue that will explain all the details of this century old conflict.
> 
> I still haven't made up my mind on the title of the thread but it will be either "*The Clash of the Titans*" or "*Palestine for dummies*".
> 
> Check out the Israel/Palestine section of the board every now and then and you won't be disapointed.



I hope you won't fill your 'mega thread' with all the prejudicial nonsense and hate speech you will find on most of the pro-Palestinian websites.  And I hope it will include thoughtful and objective assessment of the realities of the situation and won't focus on benign or viscious anti-Semitism directed at the Israelis which some attempt to sanitize by calling it opposition to Zionism.

And I hope it won't be filled with red herrings and straw men designed to deflect any issues inconvenient to your advocacy and those who share it.

And be aware that some here have done some intense reading and study on this issue and have arrived at different conclusions than those you express.


----------



## Shogun

Lord knows that if it is filled with EVIDENCE which is posted WITH LINKS to unbiased sources it will fall short of what you hope to see.


Funny, I don't recall a single post by foxfyre that addressed, debated or mentioned any one of the numerous posted links I've provided within the last week...  but, everyone seems to be the rhetorical expert.


Yes, jose, make sure you aren't as heavy handed as we are with Europeans who want an ETHNICALLY PURE state.  You'll definitively trigger the standard reaction if you don't make the zionists feel like the complete victim.


RED HERRINGS AND STRAWMEN..  Now THATS rich.


----------



## jillian

Or you could call the thread *Virulent Anti-Israel Propaganda and Lies*,

You do know your essential premise that the Jews made the palestinians leave is a lie, right?

Still curious about what should happen to the Jews in your Hamas Utopia? Do they get subjugated? deported? killed?

We're all waiting for your words of wisdom. Again, I'm not overly interested in the genesis of these issues from the year gimmel. I'm more curious as to how you resolve it, other than handing over Israel to the Palestinians.

Would be nice to get an answer instead of your usual strawman-filled propagandic rant.

I'm also kind of curious as to why you're so vested in this issue. It sure isn't your essential fairness and desire to do good.


----------



## José

> Originally posted by *Shogun*
> I would reply to you Dr. Gump but it seems that some users won't accept a mod debating aggressively. I guess we've finally figured out how to put a cap on this topic once and for all.If it becomes necessary to shed my status I'll offer to finish this discussion with you.
> 
> Lord knows that if it is filled with EVIDENCE which is posted WITH LINKS to unbiased sources it will fall short of what you hope to see.
> 
> 
> Funny, I don't recall a single post by foxfyre that addressed, debated or mentioned any one of the numerous posted links I've provided within the last week... but, everyone seems to be the rhetorical expert


.

I read your comparisons between South Africa and Israel Shogun and this helps us understand the Israeli/Palestinian conflict.

I&#8217;m really disapointed with Grump&#8217;s support for Israel but I can understand the reasons behind it.

I assume Grump supports the right of the Maori people to move freely and settle residence anywhere they want in New Zealand but denies the same right to millions of palestinian refugees living in Gaza and the West Bank.

Grump supports equal rights between Anglos and Maoris in New Zealand and jewish supremacism in Palestine.

But how can a believer in democracy like Grump justify jewish racism in Palestine?

Simple. He reproduces the caricature of the palestinian people presented to him by the western press that portrays a dehumanising picture of palestinians as irrational monsters thirsty for jewish blood.

*Well, how many races have Jews tried to wipe out in recent history? 

The arabs and Persians are now trying to do it.*

If only he knew that the same excuse was used by another but equally imoral racist state.

Just ask anyone who lived in South Africa during the last decade of apartheid, Shogun.

They will all tell you that the same propaganda was spewed by their government.

*&#8220;The day the blacks take over is the day the genocide will begin&#8221;

&#8220;Whites will be expelled from South Africa, at best, and slaughtered, at worst.&#8221;

&#8220;BLAH, BLAH, BLAH, BLAH, BLAH...&#8221;*

Even if you are old enough, you won't remember hearing these things in the international press at the time because the western press refused to reproduce the racist propaganda that came from the white government.

But do what I&#8217;m saying. Just ask a south african citizen in his 30&#8217;s, 40&#8217;s etc... and he/she will confirm my words.

Just replace palestinians for blacks and the slogans become the same:

*&#8220;Drive us into the sea&#8221;, &#8220;kill us all&#8221;, blah, blah, blah...*

Almost 20 years after the desegregation of South Africa, it seems like the black people of South Africa are the worst perpetrators of genocide in human history.

The difference between South Africa and Israel is the following:

During the last decades of apartheid the western press shielded the super patriotic american clown from the racist propaganda that came out of South Africa.

As for Israel, the same western press *BOMBARD* not only super patriotic american clowns but also Australians, New Zealanders etc, etc ...with the same racist propaganda that portrays the palestinian people as hordes of irrational arabs hellbent on killing every single jew.

I strongly urge Skrammer, Diuretic and Grump to dump the racist propaganda they were fed by the western press and revise their political ideas because it is totally absurd to support democracy in America, Australia and New Zealand and jewish racism in Palestine.


----------



## jillian

Jos&#233;;632810 said:
			
		

> Jesus Christ!!!!
> 
> Scooter has to pay me to do this job.
> 
> I feel like Kathianne teaching the basics of the Israeli/Palestinian issue to a bunch of little children who can't even find Palestine on a map of the Middle East : )



Given you know nothing about the conflict that isn't propaganda or show the slightest understanding of the complexities of the reality, well... I doubt anyone's going to pay you.... well maybe in Gaza they might like you.


----------



## Shogun

way to lather on the bullshit jew hating accusation, Jill.  Of COURSE it isn't FAIRNESS or a desire to do GOOD when someone keeps bringing up how israel wants an ethnic based status for jews just like the Aryan germans.  Of COURSE!

*And yet you wonder why I beat you to the antisemite punchline.*


Have you even read a single fucking piece of evidence I've already posted?  I get the impression that you really don't give a damn if jews in israel don't want equal rights for muslims.  I also get the STRONG impression that you would be totally against the same type of thing applied AGAINST JEWS in any other nation.  Funny how that works...

You can insinuate that it's simple jew hatred all day long and it won't make it true.  You can insist that posted evidence from the likes of the BBC, Haartz, reuters, NYtimes and jpost are ALL propaganda but that idea only sells to others who are purposfully willing to dazzle themselves under the same "israel is infallable, nay, JEWS are infallable"  crock of shit that makes you believe that hebrew shit smells like roses (anything suggesting otherwise is clearly propaganda).  At the end of the day YOU are still acting just as loyal to your race as the germans were to theirs.  

Pretending that the creation of israel, and zionist jews themselves, are not the DRIVING FORCE behind israel and the standard of living for pals is funny but pretty sad at the same time.  I'll QUOTE israels founders, Jill.  just Say the word.


What happens to the jews?  they understand what it means to be western by remembering that we in America dont PURGE our fucking nation of jews using the same arguement that israel uses to validate such.  They get to remember that jews are not gods gift to the fucking planet and that humanity does, in fact, include the scummy fucking goyim outside the aparthied wall.  They get to understand that hiding behind britain doesn't excuse them from the FACT that they canaanized yet another fucking burning bush claim despite the indigenous population.


hey, don't bother posting a source when, clearly, insinuating antisemtism works well enough for you.  I've said it before, you are no better than a nazi sympathizer.


----------



## jillian

Again, what happens to the Jews in your little Hamas paradise?


----------



## Shogun

jillian said:


> Given you know nothing about the conflict that isn't propaganda or show the slightest understanding of the complexities of the reality, well... I doubt anyone's going to pay you.... well maybe in Gaza they might like you.



Hey jill.. why dont you try addressing the issue rather than jumping under the "it's prooooopaganddaaaaaa" rug?  If you can prove it then do so.  Otherwise, you are not really proving anything IS propaganda by accusation alone.


But, hey.. feel free to keep the passive-aggresive inuendos up.  It probably doesn't belay just how far you will go to whitewash israels bullshit when you can take off the team jersey.


----------



## Shogun

jillian said:


> Again, what happens to the Jews in your little Hamas paradise?



The jews keep half of the total land in dispute in Palisrael.  They split Jerusalem and don't get to canaanize temple mount.  If the jews can't put as much effort into healing palestine due to the sever fucking gash that has been the last 50 years as the WEST has invested in israel then they are no better than the same iran they bitch about left and right.  

It's fucking wierd how black panther political attcks pretty much stopped after blacks stopped being disenfranchised from the United States, eh?  What a fucking mind blower to imagine how investing in palestine would remove the kassam rockets.  But, I guess to some removing the rockets will also remove the blank check policies, eh?  And who wants that when pal life is so cheap, right?  What was it you said?

Fuck em?  

Indeed, your concern over non-jewish humanity is astounding, jill.  Purely fucking brilliant.


Why don't you tell me what kind of an evil terrorist was Nelson Mandellah, Jill.  Or, why don't you ignore that challenge today like you did the last two times I brought up the south african example.


----------



## José

> Originally posted by *jillian*
> Or you could call the thread Virulent Anti-Israel Propaganda and Lies,
> 
> You do know your essential premise that the Jews made the palestinians leave is a lie, right?
> 
> Still curious about what should happen to the Jews in your Hamas Utopia? Do they get subjugated? deported? killed?
> 
> We're all waiting for your words of wisdom. Again, I'm not overly interested in the genesis of these issues from the year gimmel. I'm more curious as to how you resolve it, other than handing over Israel to the Palestinians.
> 
> Would be nice to get an answer instead of your usual strawman-filled propagandic rant.
> 
> I'm also kind of curious as to why you're so vested in this issue. It sure isn't your essential fairness and desire to do good.



Jillian

Did you know my mother language has a verb that makes reference to the historic persecution and suffering of the jewish people?

It&#8217;s called &#8220;*JUDIAR*&#8221;.

Judiar means to &#8220;jew&#8221; someone, to mistreat someone, to treat someone bad.

Example:

*Pare de judiar de minha irm&#227;.*

Translation:

*Stop &#8220;jewing&#8221; my sister.*

*Stop treating my sister bad.*

*Stop treating my sister like a jew.*

This verb was created in Portugal during the Inquisition when the jews were being persecuted and forced to abandon their faith or leave the country and sometimes even face death.

The mistreatment your people suffered during the ages was so real that it even entered the Portuguese language!!!!

And it is not a literary verb it is used in everyday conversation.

This verb do not exist in Spanish, which is amazing since the two languages are so similar to each other as well as the history of persecution in both countries.

Don&#8217;t tell me I am insentive to the suffering of the jewish people.

The language I learned from my mother brings in it a reminder of all the things your people went through.

And everytime I speak, hear, write or read the verb &#8220;*JUDIAR*&#8221; I am reminded of a people who was persecuted by the simple fact they worship God in a different way.

So don&#8217;t tell me I don&#8217;t care for the jewish people.

The reasons behind the creation of the state of Israel were noble and continue to be valid today as they were in 48:

A safe haven for a persecuted people.

But the establishment of a jewish supremacist state in Palestine that keeps the palestinian people herded in Gaza and the West Bank against their will is not the correct, moral way to achieve this goal.

Let&#8217;s try another type of political configuration, for example, an international protectorate where the security of both peoples will be guaranteed by the international community.

This is clearly a morally superior solution for the Israeli/Palestinian issue than the jewish racial dictatorship will ever be.


----------



## Foxfyre

José;632875 said:
			
		

> Jillian
> 
> Did you know my mother language has a verb that makes reference to the historic persecution and suffering of the jewish people?
> 
> Its called *JUDIAR*.
> 
> Judiar means to jew someone, to mistreat someone, to treat someone bad.
> 
> Example:
> 
> *Pare de judiar de minha irmã.*
> 
> Translation:
> 
> *Stop jewing my sister.*
> 
> *Stop treating my sister bad.*
> 
> *Stop treating my sister like a jew.*
> 
> This verb was created in Portugal during the Inquisition when the jews were being persecuted and forced to abandon their faith or leave the country and sometimes even face death.
> 
> The mistreatment your people suffered during the ages was so real that it even entered the Portuguese language!!!!
> 
> And it is not a literary verb it is used in everyday conversation.
> 
> This verb do not exist in Spanish, which is amazing since the two languages are so similar to each other as well as the history of persecution in both countries.
> 
> Dont tell me I am insentive to the suffering of the jewish people.
> 
> The language I learned from my mother brings in it a reminder of all the things your people went through.
> 
> And everytime I speak, hear, write or read the verb *JUDIAR* I am reminded of a people who was persecuted by the simple fact they worship God in a different way.
> 
> So dont tell me I dont care for the jewish people.
> 
> The reasons behind the creation of the state of Israel were noble and continue to be valid today as they were in 48:
> 
> A safe haven for a persecuted people.
> 
> But the establishment of a jewish supremacist state in Palestine that keeps the palestinian people herded in Gaza and the West Bank against their will is not the correct, moral way to achieve this goal.
> 
> Lets try another type of political configuration, for example, an international protectorate where the security of both peoples will be guaranteed by the international community.
> 
> This is clearly a morally superior solution for the Israeli/Palestinian issue than the jewish racial dictatorship will ever be.



A very good post in my estimation, but you left out the one critical component that makes it all irrelevent in the short term.

Israel has not pledged destruction of the Palestinians nor any other people.  The Palestinians both through their Hamas and Hezbollah leadership have pledged the destruction of Israel.

Israel has a past that includes terrorism, but that practice was abandoned many decades ago.  Israel does not send sucide bombers into Palestinian neighborhoods or places of commerce for the intentional purpose of killing or maiming as many innocent men, women, and children as possible.  The Palestians do that in Israeli neighborhoods and places of commerce.

Israel doesn't indiscriminately lob rockets into Palestinian neighborhoods trying to kill or hurt somebody.  The Palestinians do that to the Israelis, however, primarily from lands the Israelis have vacated and turned over to the Palestinians.

Until the Palestinian leadership and people denounce terrorism, are willing to acknowledge Israel's right to exist, and pledge to be a good neighbor and friend to Israel, Israel will continue to defend and protect itself however it deems it necessary to do that which generally means the Palestinians will get the worst of it. 

It is unreasonable to demand that ANY nation play nice with people committed to destroy it.


----------



## jillian

Shogun said:


> The jews keep half of the total land in dispute in Palisrael.  They split Jerusalem and don't get to canaanize temple mount.  If the jews can't put as much effort into healing palestine due to the sever fucking gash that has been the last 50 years as the WEST has invested in israel then they are no better than the same iran they bitch about left and right.
> 
> It's fucking wierd how black panther political attcks pretty much stopped after blacks stopped being disenfranchised from the United States, eh?  What a fucking mind blower to imagine how investing in palestine would remove the kassam rockets.  But, I guess to some removing the rockets will also remove the blank check policies, eh?  And who wants that when pal life is so cheap, right?  What was it you said?
> 
> Fuck em?
> 
> Indeed, your concern over non-jewish humanity is astounding, jill.  Purely fucking brilliant.
> 
> 
> Why don't you tell me what kind of an evil terrorist was Nelson Mandellah, Jill.  Or, why don't you ignore that challenge today like you did the last two times I brought up the south african example.



There is no palisrael.

There is a State of Israel. There could be a Palestine, all the pals have to do is disavow the destruction of Israel. They refuse to do that and instead lob kadushas into Israel.

Mostly, I'm curious as to why you think that the pals should get what they could have had 62 years ago before the Arabs launched their attacks against Israel?

Why should Israel give up its sovereignty and become some international protectorate. Screw that... how do you think Americans would feel if anyone suggested such a thing about us.

Should Israel trust the international community, which didn't think it appropriate to respond to Hezbollah missiles, to protect it. Again, screw that... Israel has a right to defend itself.

You talk about Palestinians as if they are Israeli citizens. They aren't. Arab citizens of Israel are treated very well. Pals are no more citizens of Israel than I am of Belarus. And I don't get to make demands for my ancestral properties simply because my great grandparents left because of the pogroms. That's life.. tough.

It's not that I'm unsympathetic to the Palestinians. It's that they have to step up to the plate, abandon the destruction of Israel as a goal and actually start accepting responsibilty... and reality.


----------



## Dr Grump

Shogun said:


> prepare to wear the label, jose.
> I love this:
> 
> *And it is not a generalisation if it is true.*
> 
> 
> 
> I just wonder.. whyis it OK to generalize muslims... but jews?  How many times do you think David Duke ever made that same statement?
> 
> I would reply to you Dr. Gump but it seems that some users won't accept a mod debating aggressively.  I guess we've finally figured out how to put a cap on this topic once and for all.If it becomes necessary to shed my status I'll offer to finish this discussion with you.



It is not a generalisation if it is true. You fail to address the point re the banks of the River Jordan.

You can debate as aggressively as you like. I do not have a problem with it.


----------



## Dr Grump

Shogun said:


> The jews keep half of the total land in dispute in Palisrael.  They split Jerusalem and don't get to canaanize temple mount.  If the jews can't put as much effort into healing palestine due to the sever fucking gash that has been the last 50 years as the WEST has invested in israel then they are no better than the same iran they bitch about left and right.
> 
> It's fucking wierd how black panther political attcks pretty much stopped after blacks stopped being disenfranchised from the United States, eh?  What a fucking mind blower to imagine how investing in palestine would remove the kassam rockets.  But, I guess to some removing the rockets will also remove the blank check policies, eh?  And who wants that when pal life is so cheap, right?  What was it you said?
> 
> Fuck em?
> 
> Indeed, your concern over non-jewish humanity is astounding, jill.  Purely fucking brilliant.
> 
> 
> Why don't you tell me what kind of an evil terrorist was Nelson Mandellah, Jill.  Or, why don't you ignore that challenge today like you did the last two times I brought up the south african example.




With the exception of the Jerusalem question, the Pals have been offered that in the past and turned it down. In fact, in the original partition they got half of Jerusalem but then tried to take over the whole place and got their butts kicked. Where is your outrage at the Palistinians actions? And if you are so outraged about the West Bank, why aren't you demanding it be returned to the "original", rightful owners Jordan? Or because they are arabs, that's "different"? BTW, when did the Palestinians come into being as a people? Do you know the make up of the Jordanian peoples (how many are Palestinian).

You STILL have not ONCE given any criticism to the Palestinians. All you have done is given them excuses blaming the Israelis. I have criticised the Israelis - when are you going to take your blinders off and do the same re the Pals?


----------



## Shogun

WHY should israel play ball?


Because israel is RELIANT upon the west, excuse me AMERICA, in order to maintain itself during the entirety of its existence.  1955 America may not have had any wualms with a racist jewish state if it took jews out of America.  2007 America won't rationalize systematic racism in israel for the sake of some lame ass jewish ancient history excuse.  let's see big bad israel huff and puff after the attack dogs leaves the pen.

America feels the retribution for it's support for israel.  Israel does not exist in a vacuum.  As much as you may think otherwise there ARE reactions to the actions of israel.  There is a LOT of anti-american sentiment in the mid east that would be solved simply on making israel play a fair game.  NUKES?  APARTHEID WALLS? Racist laws of return for jews and a 'dozer solution for pals?  I don't care if you think the reaction of the pals invalidates their similar historic claim the land.  Considering how you constantly dodge anything that the label will stick to it is clear that NO amount of human equality will trump your desire for an israeli double standard.

Why should they give up their racist policies?  Because israel isn't so bad to the bone that it can start whipping out nuclear solutions without the west coming in to correct it's own.  You saw it when israel attacked civilians in lebenon.  Youll see it again when israel decides to canaanize temple mount.  Israel cannot justify the same racism that the germans tried to play.  

SHOCKER! a german could rationalize an ethnic aryian nation!  SHOCKER!

SHOCKER! a white south african DENIES that there is an aparthied in sourth africa.  SHOCKER!


Why don't you address the nelson mandella point I keep bringing up, Jill?  What on earth might you be avoiding?


"defending itself" doesnt mean PHOSPHORUS WEAPONS IN CIVILIAN POPULATIONS.

nor does it mean subjugating an entire ethnic minority population.

nor does it mean preserving the hebrew nature of the israeli government with imbedded racist policies.

Israel gets it's support from the same international community that you shut disregarded.  FUCK THAT?  yea, I bet you don't say that when israel plays by the same nuclear standards as everyone else.  I bet you don't say that when America take the jewish hand out of the tax aid cookie jar.  Spare me the boohoo shit.  You haven't seen the antisemitism that your grandparents knew in your entire fucking life.  I'll give you the same line I give christians:  Being told "NO" is not persicution no matter how many fake ass croc tears you shed.  


of COURSE they are not israeli citizens!  That's the fucking point behind israeli racism.  How quick do you think they would be welcomed with open arms IF THEY WERE JEWISH INSTEAD OF SCUMMY FUCKING GOYIM?


yea, Jill, your concern of pals was pretty much summed up in the "fuck em" line.  Your concern extends only as far as the maximum jewish benefit.  If you gave a damn about non-jews in palisrael you'd look beyond your ethic team jersey for the humanity and travesty of violence UNIVERSALLY applicable in this giant clusterfuck.  But, your quickness to throw the antisemite switch conveys more than your bare minimum note of concern.


And, no.. there is no Palisrael today..  But I suggest you take Olmerts fearful message to heart.  Without a Pal state there will be no jewish state of israel.  Israel WILL integrate if it doesn't start investing in more than strictly jews. The west won't justify a racist state even if a philharmonic chorus of choreographed jews screaming antisemite makes the jpost.


Like I said, the apathy makes me sick.  At least try to be as benevolent to pals as WE have been to israel.  There really are more victims here than those who sport the yarmulkes.


----------



## Shogun

Dr Grump said:


> It is not a generalisation if it is true. You fail to address the point re the banks of the River Jordan.
> 
> You can debate as aggressively as you like. I do not have a problem with it.



So... do we apply that same Generalization rule to jews too?  blacks?  Asians?  For real, is this some kind of flip side fucking twilight zone episode or something?  

So, then it's OK to insist that any given jew is PROBABLY a money grubbing banker type with a large nose and more loyalty to israel than America?  Fuck that.  Maybe you can give me some examples of TRUE GENERALIZATIONS. Feel free to spread your list of applicable gernalizations around by race, nationality.. you know.. ALL the good stereotypes.  I'll be waiting for your list.


No, I addressed your bank of the river jordan with pointing out how absolutely rediculous it is to Emminant Domain nations.  How does the status of the land invalidate the people who live there again?  kentucky is pretty fucking poor.... so, what is stopping the UAE from taking that state as a North American muslim state?  I mean, Have you seen what they've done with Dubai?@!?  GOLDEN TRAILER PARKS galore!  And totally justified!  right?  I mean, it's not like the poor ass white trash in that state can ever hope to achieve such wonders on that same land, eh?

Further, so manifest destiny was justified because in 10k years the natives never build a fucking railroad to the west?


----------



## Shogun

Dr Grump said:


> With the exception of the Jerusalem question, the Pals have been offered that in the past and turned it down. In fact, in the original partition they got half of Jerusalem but then tried to take over the whole place and got their butts kicked. Where is your outrage at the Palistinians actions? And if you are so outraged about the West Bank, why aren't you demanding it be returned to the "original", rightful owners Jordan? Or because they are arabs, that's "different"? BTW, when did the Palestinians come into being as a people? Do you know the make up of the Jordanian peoples (how many are Palestinian).
> 
> You STILL have not ONCE given any criticism to the Palestinians. All you have done is given them excuses blaming the Israelis. I have criticised the Israelis - when are you going to take your blinders off and do the same re the Pals?



What do youwant to see?  That kassam rockets fired into israeli civilian populations are wrong?  THEY ARE WRONG.  No shit.  Was SCALPING WRONG?  yes, to a family *moving west* YES it was very wrong.  But, dare I mention the history of the US supporting similar guerilla efforts in OTHER nations?  Iran-contra ring a bell?  The Taliban?  Would TEXANS be wrong fot doing the same thing in Israel, Texas?  Would YOU be wrong has the commies ever invaded America like the numerous 80s flicks?  Tell me, Which side did YOU identify with in Red Dawn?  Which side would YOU side with if mexicans tried to take back the southwest?  Maybe you can find a native and share a laugh about how a violent reaction to encroachment is evil.  

No, I don't blame the WHOLE of pal just like I have never blamed the WHOLE of israel.  Have you missed the word ZIONIST in my posts?  I know damn well that there are jews who don't agree with zionism just like I can comprehend pals that don't agree with kassam rockets.  Good fucking luck finding any among my opposition who can say the same thing.


By the way, when did Africans ever decide to come to America during the first 100 years of our nation?  Why can you split hairs about the collective peoples in palestine while not bitching about sending our blacks back to africa?  Why is it that oyu are willing to BEND THE RULES when it comes to justifying israeli bullshit?


Maybe YOU would like to take a stab at telling me why the world calibrated a fucking terrorist like Nelson Mandella.


Why don't you post the evidence of the specific deal that was offered instead of falling back on bullshit rhetoric?  I've posted tons of evidence in the last week to support my position.  Your side?  0.


----------



## Dr Grump

Shogun said:


> So... do we apply that same Generalization rule to jews too?  blacks?  Asians?  For real, is this some kind of flip side fucking twilight zone episode or something?
> 
> So, then it's OK to insist that any given jew is PROBABLY a money grubbing banker type with a large nose and more loyalty to israel than America?  Fuck that.  Maybe you can give me some examples of TRUE GENERALIZATIONS. Feel free to spread your list of applicable gernalizations around by race, nationality.. you know.. ALL the good stereotypes.  I'll be waiting for your list.
> 
> 
> No, I addressed your bank of the river jordan with pointing out how absolutely rediculous it is to Emminant Domain nations.  How does the status of the land invalidate the people who live there again?  kentucky is pretty fucking poor.... so, what is stopping the UAE from taking that state as a North American muslim state?  I mean, Have you seen what they've done with Dubai?@!?  GOLDEN TRAILER PARKS galore!  And totally justified!  right?  I mean, it's not like the poor ass white trash in that state can ever hope to achieve such wonders on that same land, eh?
> 
> Further, so manifest destiny was justified because in 10k years the natives never build a fucking railroad to the west?




Ok, take away the generalisations. Why is the Israeli side of the River Jordan arable and the Jordanian side not so?


----------



## Dr Grump

Shogun said:


> What do youwant to see?  That kassam rockets fired into israeli civilian populations are wrong?  THEY ARE WRONG.  No shit.  Was SCALPING WRONG?  yes, to a family *moving west* YES it was very wrong.  But, dare I mention the history of the US supporting similar guerilla efforts in OTHER nations?  Iran-contra ring a bell?  The Taliban?  Would TEXANS be wrong fot doing the same thing in Israel, Texas?  Would YOU be wrong has the commies ever invaded America like the numerous 80s flicks?  Tell me, Which side did YOU identify with in Red Dawn?  Which side would YOU side with if mexicans tried to take back the southwest?  Maybe you can find a native and share a laugh about how a violent reaction to encroachment is evil.



You'll get no disagreement from me. There are huge differences though and you are either ignorant or deliberately ignoring them. When was the American Indian EVER given the chance to divide the US up amongst themselves and the Europeans? When were the Central American countries ever offered the chance to split their countries up along idealogical grounds? The Palestinians were offerred this in 1948 and tried to take the whole lot. You are comparing apples and oranges.



Shogun said:


> No, I don't blame the WHOLE of pal just like I have never blamed the WHOLE of israel.  Have you missed the word ZIONIST in my posts?  I know damn well that there are jews who don't agree with zionism just like I can comprehend pals that don't agree with kassam rockets.  Good fucking luck finding any among my opposition who can say the same thing.



But YOU are treating the whole Israeli nations as Zionists.

I want you to answer this question and I want you to answer it honestly. 

If Israel allows the right of return within 100 years there will be more arabs than Jews. This means if the country is still a democracy and people vote along ethnic lines, the arabs will run the place and there will be a civil war or Israel will cease to exist via the ballot box. So, what happens then? Do the likes of you - shouting on the sidelines with no dog in the fight - then get all morally outraged at the plight of the Jews? 



Shogun said:


> By Why is it that oyu are willing to BEND THE RULES when it comes to justifying israeli bullshit?
> the way, when did Africans ever decide to come to America during the first 100 years of our nation?  Why can you split hairs about the collective peoples in palestine while not bitching about sending our blacks back to africa?



They didn't, but they were allowed to be repatriated to Liberia. Guess what, millions didn't go. Looking at the state of Liberia, do you tihnkn that was a good or a bad thing?



Shogun said:


> Maybe YOU would like to take a stab at telling me why the world calibrated a fucking terrorist like Nelson Mandella?



Because aparteid was systematic, it is not the case in Israel. All the arabs have the same rights as Israelis (with the exception of joining the army). Also, the whites were interested in keeping SA's mineral wealth. You can be rest assured that if SA was just a shithole, they wouldn't have given a toss. That aside, you are comparing apples with oranges. Mandela and the ANC were NEVER given an opportunity to split the country. Bad and faulty analogy.



Shogun said:


> Why don't you post the evidence of the specific deal that was offered instead of falling back on bullshit rhetoric?  I've posted tons of evidence in the last week to support my position.  Your side?  0.



You have not. All you have offered is rhetoric and badly thought out analogies that are easily dismissed (see MY answer to YOUR Mandela one).


----------



## Shogun

aww come on.. don't backpeddle.  If it's OK to generalize pals then PLEASE tell me what other ethnic population clearly desreves it's stereotype.  Are poles generally stupid?  Are germans probably closet nazis?  Are russians more often than not commies?  LETS flush out why you automatically reached for that tactic.  WHY do you think you tried to justify it?  WHY do you think it's ok to generalize pals but no one else?


Why are there black ghettos, dude?  is east LA the sole product of the stereotypical latinos and negro?  Should they go ahead and forget their claim to citizenship and property because a bunch of white dudes with money can step in and clean it up?  Dude, why don't you take a half a second and consider why the US doen't send an equal amount to pal as it does israel.  SHOCKER! the kid with the most cake gets fat! SHOCKER!  WHo EVER made an exual attempt to invest in pal as they have the jews?  Give me a single name.  A single effort beyond shoveling off token money to some strongman.  Which, brings me back to the Iraq example.  Millions gone *POOF* vanished without anything to really show for it in infrastructure... so, I guess that validates kicking the iraqis the fuck out?  

If not, why is there a difference between the treatment of pals and the treatment of iraqis?


----------



## Shogun

*You'll get no disagreement from me. There are huge differences though and you are either ignorant or deliberately ignoring them. When was the American Indian EVER given the chance to divide the US up amongst themselves and the Europeans? When were the Central American countries ever offered the chance to split their countries up along idealogical grounds? The Palestinians were offerred this in 1948 and tried to take the whole lot. You are comparing apples and oranges.*

*sigh*  yes, IM the one ignorant or purposefully dense..

The Cherokee Trail of Tears resulted from the enforcement of the Treaty of New Echota, *an agreement signed under the provisions of the Indian Removal Act of 1830, which exchanged Native American land in the East for lands west of the Mississippi River, but which was never accepted by the elected tribal leadership or a majority of the Cherokee people. Nevertheless, the treaty was enforced by President Martin Van Buren, who sent federal troops to round up about 17,000 Cherokees in concentration camps before being sent to the West.* Most of the deaths occurred from disease in these camps. After the initial roundup, the U.S. military played a limited role in the journey itself, with the Cherokee Nation taking over supervision of most of the emigration.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trail_of_Tears

Evidence, dude.  I'm the only one who seems interested in using it.



*But YOU are treating the whole Israeli nations as Zionists.
I want you to answer this question and I want you to answer it honestly.*


I just answered your question.  Again, with FACTS instead of boohoo rhetoric.  I'll invite you to quote me where I've even remotely suggested that the whole of israel are zionists.  Like I just said, IM the one who isnt relying on broad generalizations and can fathom a range of opinoins among jews AND pals.  who on your side has even tried to do the same?  Antisemite labels don't come in that size.


----------



## Dr Grump

Shogun said:


> aww come on.. don't backpeddle.  If it's OK to generalize pals then PLEASE tell me what other ethnic population clearly desreves it's stereotype.  Are poles generally stupid?  Are germans probably closet nazis?  Are russians more often than not commies?  LETS flush out why you automatically reached for that tactic.  WHY do you think you tried to justify it?  WHY do you think it's ok to generalize pals but no one else?
> 
> 
> Why are there black ghettos, dude?  is east LA the sole product of the stereotypical latinos and negro?  Should they go ahead and forget their claim to citizenship and property because a bunch of white dudes with money can step in and clean it up?  Dude, why don't you take a half a second and consider why the US doen't send an equal amount to pal as it does israel.  SHOCKER! the kid with the most cake gets fat! SHOCKER!  WHo EVER made an exual attempt to invest in pal as they have the jews?  Give me a single name.  A single effort beyond shoveling off token money to some strongman.  Which, brings me back to the Iraq example.  Millions gone *POOF* vanished without anything to really show for it in infrastructure... so, I guess that validates kicking the iraqis the fuck out?
> 
> If not, why is there a difference between the treatment of pals and the treatment of iraqis?





Please give me your insights as to why the Israeli side of the River Jordan is arable (when previoiusly it was not), and the Jordanian side is not. 

Yours in Anticipation
Grump


----------



## Dr Grump

Shogun said:


> *You'll get no disagreement from me. There are huge differences though and you are either ignorant or deliberately ignoring them. When was the American Indian EVER given the chance to divide the US up amongst themselves and the Europeans? When were the Central American countries ever offered the chance to split their countries up along idealogical grounds? The Palestinians were offerred this in 1948 and tried to take the whole lot. You are comparing apples and oranges.*
> 
> *sigh*  yes, IM the one ignorant or purposefully dense..
> 
> The Cherokee Trail of Tears resulted from the enforcement of the Treaty of New Echota, *an agreement signed under the provisions of the Indian Removal Act of 1830, which exchanged Native American land in the East for lands west of the Mississippi River, but which was never accepted by the elected tribal leadership or a majority of the Cherokee people. Nevertheless, the treaty was enforced by President Martin Van Buren, who sent federal troops to round up about 17,000 Cherokees in concentration camps before being sent to the West.* Most of the deaths occurred from disease in these camps. After the initial roundup, the U.S. military played a limited role in the journey itself, with the Cherokee Nation taking over supervision of most of the emigration.
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trail_of_Tears
> 
> Evidence, dude.  I'm the only one who seems interested in using it.
> 
> 
> 
> *But YOU are treating the whole Israeli nations as Zionists.
> I want you to answer this question and I want you to answer it honestly.*
> 
> 
> I just answered your question.  Again, with FACTS instead of boohoo rhetoric.  I'll invite you to quote me where I've even remotely suggested that the whole of israel are zionists.  Like I just said, IM the one who isnt relying on broad generalizations and can fathom a range of opinoins among jews AND pals.  who on your side has even tried to do the same?  Antisemite labels don't come in that size.




If you want to play semantics, I'll play. I'll rephrase the question. Were the Indians ever given an HONEST chance of splitting the country. A chance that would have been backed up by the international community. Let's not forget, the offer on the table to the Palestians would have been enforced, not literally, but by the threat of the US withdrawing its support for Israel if they didn't uphold their end of hte bargin. I ahve no reason to believe the Israelis wouldn't have upheld their end. We will never know re the Pals, because they never took the offer up in the first place.

BTW, I accidentally hit post two posts ago. I have completed that post now...


----------



## Shogun

*
If Israel allows the right of return within 100 years there will be more arabs than Jews. This means if the country is still a democracy and people vote along ethnic lines, the arabs will run the place and there will be a civil war or Israel will cease to exist via the ballot box. So, what happens then? Do the likes of you - shouting on the sidelines with no dog in the fight - then get all morally outraged at the plight of the Jews? *

Are you kidding me?  Is that how the WHITES act today?  Are there NO NATIONAL MEASURES to keep that from happening?  are you familair with OUR constitution at ALL?  You do realize that OURS was weighted in white mans favor, right?  That it has since become protection for ALL americans despite race, right?  What kind of bullshit paranoid crap are you trying to use as an excuse, due?  Your statement sounds EXACTLY like the reason blacks weren't allowed to own guns.  for real.. this is your second voyage into racist paranoia that we see every time a dominant population doesn't want to stop subjugating the minority.  I didn't realize Bunker was a jewish surname.


*
They didn't, but they were allowed to be repatriated to Liberia. Guess what, millions didn't go. Looking at the state of Liberia, do you tihnkn that was a good or a bad thing?*

uh, all of our africans came from Liberia?  Why are you sidestepping the example of BLACK AMERICANS?  You know, the very same people that whites were scared to fucking death would TAKE OVER? Did we kick their fucking asses out of the US when Liberia did it's thing?  NO?  WHY NOT?  I mean, if israel can have a preserved jewish majority then certainly you don't mind America rounding up some refugees, right?  Bottom Line: Race based criteria for national citizenship is wrong no matter who tries it.  Whites in S Africa, Whites in America and, yes, even jews in israel.


*Because aparteid was systematic, it is not the case in Israel. All the arabs have the same rights as Israelis (with the exception of joining the army). Also, the whites were interested in keeping SA's mineral wealth. You can be rest assured that if SA was just a shithole, they wouldn't have given a toss. That aside, you are comparing apples with oranges. Mandela and the ANC were NEVER given an opportunity to split the country. Bad and faulty analogy.*

HA!
yea, but the treatment of pals is NOT systematic??  HAHAHAHAHAHA!  OOOK.  of COURSE it's apples and ornages!  NEVERMIND THE VIOLENT HISTORY BEHIND NELSONS FIGHT AGAINST APARTHIED.. nooooo.. that's just different killing!  What a load of shit, dude.  I suggest you read his own fucking words about the human rights violations he participated in FOR THE SAKE OF HIS MARGINALIZED PEOPLE and stop trying to separate jews from the rest of us humans.  You perpetuate a double standard and wonder why pals pick up on the one sided bullshit hidden in your words.

The MK carried out numerous bombings of military, industrial, civilian and infrastructural sites. The tactics were initially geared solely towards sabotage, but eventually expanded to include urban guerrilla warfare, which included human targets. Notable among these were the 8 January 1982 attack on the Koeberg nuclear power plant near Cape Town, coinciding with the 70th anniversary of the formation of the ANC, the Church Street bombing on 20 May 1983, killing 19, and the 14 June 1986 car-bombing of Magoo's Bar in Durban, in which 3 people were killed and 73 injured. The total number of people killed or injured in the 30 years of MK's campaigns is not known exactly. MK alone was not a military threat to the apartheid state, but the ANC leadership saw MK as the armed component of a strategy of "people's war" that was primarily geared towards mobilizing mass political support.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Umkhonto_we_Sizwe



*
You have not. All you have offered is rhetoric and badly thought out analogies that are easily dismissed (see MY answer to YOUR Mandela one).*


Yea, well I'll tell you what.. YOU post your sources and I'll post mine.  So far, I have proven the violent actions of Nelson Mandella just as I have proved which of us is ignorant about Native American's "choice" befor the trail of tears.  It doesn't bother me that you don't want to see the clear correlations.. after all, you are the guy who just stated that generalizations are ok if they are true.  However, you might want to take some introspective sould searching and figure out exactly why israel seems to qualify for the double standard.  You, sir, might also avoid pointing the rhetoric finger while not having a single posted piece of evidence in the entire fucking thread.


----------



## Shogun

Dr Grump said:


> Please give me your insights as to why the Israeli side of the River Jordan is arable (when previoiusly it was not), and the Jordanian side is not.
> 
> Yours in Anticipation
> Grump




because more effort has been made to coddle jews than pals.  It really is as simple as that.  remove the double standard and the silver spoon from israel before trying to assume that it's mere ethnicity that makes one better than the other.


Now, perhaps you can post that list of acceptable generalizations?  I mean, if it works to help me understand your profound apples and oranges criteria then perhaps I need to KNOW when it's ok to assume that any given black dude I run into will like chicken and watermelon and play basketball.


----------



## jillian

How do you figure? Of the hundreds of resolutions passed by the security council, the vast majority are anti-israel and pro-palestinian.

Israel is the only western democracy in the middle east. The Palestinians pursue a terroristic agenda. Israel goes to the peace table and offers them most of what they want.... no deal.

Why should the pals be handed everything they want? And why shouldn't they have to disavow the destruction of Israel before they get anything?


----------



## Shogun

Dr Grump said:


> If you want to play semantics, I'll play. I'll rephrase the question. Were the Indians ever given an HONEST chance of splitting the country. A chance that would have been backed up by the international community. Let's not forget, the offer on the table to the Palestians would have been enforced, not literally, but by the threat of the US withdrawing its support for Israel if they didn't uphold their end of hte bargin. I ahve no reason to believe the Israelis wouldn't have upheld their end. We will never know re the Pals, because they never took the offer up in the first place.
> 
> BTW, I accidentally hit post two posts ago. I have completed that post now...



Ahhh.. NOW it's SEMANTICS!  the five finger handprint is still on your face even if you want to change your position now.  HONEST?  Are you fucking kidding me?  WHEN HAVE THE PALS EVER HAD AN HONEST OFFER?  Maybe that will prompt you to post a link to the specifics rather than blathering on the same ole rhetorical shit.  Come on, I'm throwing the gauntlet down.  If you want to ask me questions at least be prepared to discuss the specifics.

yea... CLEARLY israel has a reputation for sticking to deals that don't benefit israel.  But, I digress.. if THIS is the route you want to take then dig up each specific offering rather than ASSUMING that they were fair to both parties.  but, don't fear, you can still dole out the automatic benefit of the doubt to israel.. After all, we know how true the generalizations are, right buddy?


----------



## jillian

He asked you a question. Where is the palestinian responsibility for their predicament?


----------



## Shogun

jillian said:


> How do you figure? Of the hundreds of resolutions passed by the security council, the vast majority are anti-israel and pro-palestinian.
> 
> Israel is the only western democracy in the middle east. The Palestinians pursue a terroristic agenda. Israel goes to the peace table and offers them most of what they want.... no deal.
> 
> Why should the pals be handed everything they want? And why shouldn't they have to disavow the destruction of Israel before they get anything?



Do you want to post specific examples or shall we just trust your unbiased (HA!) word?  WESTERN DEMOCRACY?  Sure, if you are jewish.  I've asked you before.. When will Israel have a muslim president?  Indeed, polish that turd.  blah blah blah blah, jill.  back up your bullshit instead of trying to rationalize your clear hatred of pals.  I'll remind you, humanity, in fact, extends beyond the temple.


----------



## jillian

Your question is imbecilic. When will Iran have a Jewish president? Answer. It won't. When will Saudi Arabia be led by a Jew? Answer it won't. When will Jordan be led by a Jew? Answer ... it won't.

Shall I go on? Or do you need further proof of how stupid your question sounds.

Again, where's the Palestinian responsibility for their predicament?

And, yes, Israel is a western democracy... unless of course, you hate Israel. *shrug*


----------



## Shogun

jillian said:


> He asked you a question. Where is the palestinian responsibility for their predicament?



You are not even reading my posts, are you?  I've answered this.  But hey, if it makes you feel better avoiding the resounding ass whooping i'm handing out today then so be it.

Indeed, nothing says justification for persecution like blaming the victim!  You know, like those jews that just didn't want to take a hint in germany?  After all, THEY bare responsibility for the holocaust by their own refusal to leave, right?


good fucking grief, jillian.  Is this the apex of your ability to back up your positions?


----------



## Shogun

jillian said:


> Your question is imbecilic. When will Iran have a Jewish president? Answer. It won't. When will Saudi Arabia be led by a Jew? Answer it won't. When will Jordan be led by a Jew? Answer ... it won't.
> 
> Shall I go on? Or do you need further proof of how stupid your question sounds.
> 
> Again, where's the Palestinian responsibility for their predicament?
> 
> And, yes, Israel is a western democracy... unless of course, you hate Israel. *shrug*



AHHHH.. so NOW im just a stupid little goyim...  Gotcha!  Iran is not the western example you just tried to insist that israel is.  But hey, feel free to rationalize using muslims again.. Hell, it probably isn't loud and clear how you feel about THOSE people.
*
SAUDI ARABIA DOESNT CLAIM TO BE A WESTERN NATION IN THE MID EAST DO THEY JILL?*

indeed, talk about imbecilic.

Yes, PLEASE go on, Jill.  Let's see you whip out your best stuff cause, I gotta tellya, you aren't impressing me today.


So, disagreeing that israel is a "western" democracy because of it's ETHNIC criteria and jewish double standard makes someone HATE israel?

indeed, ask me again why the first thing I do is beat you to the punchline.  Maybe an inuendo works better than evidence in YOUR law office but I'd hate to see your win/loss record.


----------



## jillian

Shogun said:


> You are not even reading my posts, are you?  I've answered this.  But hey, if it makes you feel better avoiding the resounding ass whooping i'm handing out today then so be it.
> 
> Indeed, nothing says justification for persecution like blaming the victim!  You know, like those jews that just didn't want to take a hint in germany?  After all, THEY bare responsibility for the holocaust by their own refusal to leave, right?
> 
> 
> good fucking grief, jillian.  Is this the apex of your ability to back up your positions?



I have seen nothing but excuses from you. If I missed something responsible, it must have been mixed in with the vitriole, which I tend to skim.

And your continued referencees to Germany are really stupid and make your IQ look like it's dropped about 40 points.

Jews in Germany didn't believe that they'd ever  be destroyed in their home.... they viewed themselves as German. No different than me viewing myself as American. Hence we'll never allow subtext like yours to go ignored again. Now, you might think that's paranoia. I figure it's just a healthy skeptical response to garbage like you post. 

Now, where's the palestinian responsibility for not taking the deal 62 years ago. And let's not raise the spector of Germany again, because it's bullshit. The poor palestinians weren't tossed from their homes. They left because the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem told them to and that the Jews would be in the sea in three days. They attacked the jews and miscalculated.

The funny thing is they had all the high ground, the fortresses, the defensible land (a la Golan Heights) and the soviet weapons. They figured it would be a slam dunk to kill jews. Again, they miscalculated. Why should they be rewarded for that? You're talking about people who lob missiles into Israeli civilians, who blow up babies in carriages, who have a "mickey mouse" that teaches children to be terrorists. But Israel should piss off and give them everything without them giving anything?

lol... yah... like that's gonna happen.

Let them disavow the destruction of Israel and terrorism and peace can be theirs. THEY DON'T WANT THAT. You have this absurdly romantic notion of their agenda.


----------



## Shogun

hehehehe.. how fucking retarded...



America's Presidential requirment is based on AGE and CITIZENSHIP

Israels Presidential requirment is based on... WHAT, jill?  a common JEWISH geneology?


It's pretty nice when ACTUAL western nations like the US let's jews into their system of government, isn't it?  Hey, maybe I can try to use Cubas Communism to rationalize kicking the jews out of our politics, right?  I mean, CUBA never claimed to be a western democratic nation just like your example of Saudi Arabia, right?


----------



## jillian

Shogun said:


> AHHHH.. so NOW im just a stupid little goyim...  Gotcha!  Iran is not the western example you just tried to insist that israel is.  But hey, feel free to rationalize using muslims again.. Hell, it probably isn't loud and clear how you feel about THOSE people.
> *
> SAUDI ARABIA DOESNT CLAIM TO BE A WESTERN NATION IN THE MID EAST DO THEY JILL?*
> 
> indeed, talk about imbecilic.
> 
> Yes, PLEASE go on, Jill.  Let's see you whip out your best stuff cause, I gotta tellya, you aren't impressing me today.
> 
> 
> So, disagreeing that israel is a "western" democracy because of it's ETHNIC criteria and jewish double standard makes someone HATE israel?
> 
> indeed, ask me again why the first thing I do is beat you to the punchline.  Maybe an inuendo works better than evidence in YOUR law office but I'd hate to see your win/loss record.



Ahhhhhhhhhhh... so Muslim countries ok... Jewish country racism.

lol...


----------



## Shogun

jillian said:


> I have seen nothing but excuses from you. If I missed something responsible, it must have been mixed in with the vitriole, which I tend to skim.
> 
> And your continued referencees to Germany are really stupid and make your IQ look like it's dropped about 40 points.
> 
> Jews in Germany didn't believe that they'd ever  be destroyed in their home.... they viewed themselves as German. No different than me viewing myself as American. Hence we'll never allow subtext like yours to go ignored again. Now, you might think that's paranoia. I figure it's just a healthy skeptical response to garbage like you post.
> 
> Now, where's the palestinian responsibility for not taking the deal 62 years ago. And let's not raise the spector of Germany again, because it's bullshit. The poor palestinians weren't tossed from their homes. They left because the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem told them to and that the Jews would be in the sea in three days. They attacked the jews and miscalculated.
> 
> The funny thing is they had all the high ground, the fortresses, the defensible land (a la Golan Heights) and the soviet weapons. They figured it would be a slam dunk to kill jews. Again, they miscalculated. Why should they be rewarded for that? You're talking about people who lob missiles into Israeli civilians, who blow up babies in carriages, who have a "mickey mouse" that teaches children to be terrorists. But Israel should piss off and give them everything without them giving anything?
> 
> lol... yah... like that's gonna happen.




YEA...  excuses and EVIDENCE, right Jill?  Say, HOW MANY sources have you cited that proves my posts wrong again?  What?  NONE?  you dont say!  It's almost as if you already know that calling me a jew hating antisemite will WORK to defelct criticism of israel!  holy SHIT!  I never PREDICTED this!

How about, instead of talking shit, you prove exactly how using the german example drops my IQ..  You know.. using more than your goofy team jersey rhetoric?

*
Jews in Germany didn't believe that they'd ever  be destroyed in their home.... they viewed themselves as German.* 

Oh but the PALS should have EXPECTED it.. ahh.. gotcha.  I mean, what were those fucking goyim thinking all believing that their generational homeland wasn't on the verge of becoming a jewish wet dream?!?

Sorry, this is as stupid as using saudi arabia as validation for israel racism.


*No different than me viewing myself as American.*

Not if you were told, like the nazis told their jews, to get the fuck out oof dodge.  Sorry.. history just isn't treating you well today.


*Hence we'll never allow subtext like yours to go ignored again. Now, you might think that's paranoia. I figure it's just a healthy skeptical response to garbage like you post. *


Of COURSE you would, zionist.  of course you would.  Indeed, you sure do talk tough for a people who rely on actual western nations for support.  NEVER?  play your cards wrong and see whta happens.  If you can believe that pals DESERVE what they get for the sake of some projected hubris well.. I hate to break it to a but jews are just as human and qualify for the same treatment..  Oh wait.. duh.. of COURSE you don't think thats true either!


silly me.


----------



## Shogun

jillian said:


> Ahhhhhhhhhhh... so Muslim countries ok... Jewish country racism.
> 
> lol...



Muslim nations don't claim to be WESTERN, do they, jill?  You sure are having a logic problem today, aren't you?  Have I ever suggested that Saudi Arabia should remain the way it is?  Maybe you can quote me suggesting as much.. OR, if you don't feel like making as much effort to prove your silly inuendo I bet calling me a jew hating antisemite will suffice..


----------



## Shogun

I notice you didn't touch the Nelson Mandela example with a ten foot pole, jill..


Gosh, I'm just SHOCKED that you would totally avoid historic evidence that isn't busy benefiting jews!  

WOW.

I'm totally SHOCKED!


----------



## jillian

Ohhhhhhhhhhhh... so Israel shouldn't exist for the purpose it was created. It should be some pathetic protectorate and not be soverign... it should give the palestinians a do-over.

Again. The Palestinians weren't ousted. They didn't control or *own* that land. It was nebulous... it was the only place in the mid-east with no oil. Why do you think that Europe decided to plant the Jewish refugees there. Like any other victor in war, Europe had the right to do what it wanted. Same as when it created Iraq... the UAE... etc. You complaining about those countries?

BTW, I don't find the term zionist an insult.

Nice dodge, btw, trying to hold Israel to some different standard so it no longer exists... cool. Duplicitous, but cool.

BTW, did you ever respond as to why you're so vested in this issue?


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## Shogun

just like the native DIDNT OWN THE LAND, jillian.  For real, your circular arguments are getting tired.

DIFFERENT standard?  what is so different about DESERGRATION in WESTERN NATIONS?  Funny, you claim israel is western when it suits you but...   when it DOESNT...

Hey, I invite you to QUOTE ME where I've ever stated that israel should not exist.. Hell, I could remind you that when asked point blank I included the state of israel but hey.. Why give a fuck about facts when there are inuendos to suggest?


I'm vested for the sake of humanity.  If only more dirty ass goyim like me were around in 1945, eh?


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## AllieBaba

The natives didn't own land.

They own land now, though.


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## Shogun

indeed, not having a deed written in engrish probably disqualifies 10k years of life there too.


and dont EVEN get me started on how not wearing shoes validated the trail of tears!


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## AllieBaba

Yup, so sad. 

Unfortunately, all of us have sad chapters in our genetic history. It does not mean the genetic descendants are responsible. If it did, you'd have a lot of really pissed off viking, brit, Turk, Asian, etc. descendants.

Cuz they'd all have to bow to our forefathers from...Africa? And they'd be forever paying off all the redheaded descendants of coastal people the world over.


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## Shogun

so.. we can IGNORE ancient history of every one else besides the 2000 year old claim by the jews.


gotcha.


double standard?  noooooooooo..


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## AllieBaba

No, it's not the same. America is not and never has been the middle east.

Thank goodness.


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## jillian

Shogun said:


> just like the native DIDNT OWN THE LAND, jillian.  For real, your circular arguments are getting tired.
> 
> DIFFERENT standard?  what is so different about DESERGRATION in WESTERN NATIONS?  Funny, you claim israel is western when it suits you but...   when it DOESNT...
> 
> Hey, I invite you to QUOTE ME where I've ever stated that israel should not exist.. Hell, I could remind you that when asked point blank I included the state of israel but hey.. Why give a fuck about facts when there are inuendos to suggest?
> 
> 
> I'm vested for the sake of humanity.  If only more dirty ass goyim like me were around in 1945, eh?



When did I ever call you names like "dirty ass goyim". I don't even think garbage like that, so attributing it to me as a means of deflecting the legitimate points I raised isn't very productive.

In 1945, after 10 million people were killed (6 million jews and 5 million catholics, gays and assorted other German citizenry who also were too stupid to get out) you'd have been clamoring for a State of Israel because it was the right thing to do and no one else took the boats, did they?

Now, where is your criticism for Israel over the fact that it's been the only country to take in refugees from Darfur? The only country to take in the Falasha from Ethiopia. the only country to take in Soviet Jews. Jordan should have done as much for its palestinian refugees, don't you think?

Yeah, Israel really sucks.


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## Dr Grump

Shogun said:


> Muslim nations don't claim to be WESTERN, do they, jill?  You sure are having a logic problem today, aren't you?  Have I ever suggested that Saudi Arabia should remain the way it is?  Maybe you can quote me suggesting as much.. OR, if you don't feel like making as much effort to prove your silly inuendo I bet calling me a jew hating antisemite will suffice..



So because Muslim countries aren't westernised you give them a free pass to be racist hellholes, but Israelis must commit hari kari? How benevolent of you..


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## Dr Grump

Shogun said:


> *
> If Israel allows the right of return within 100 years there will be more arabs than Jews. This means if the country is still a democracy and people vote along ethnic lines, the arabs will run the place and there will be a civil war or Israel will cease to exist via the ballot box. So, what happens then? Do the likes of you - shouting on the sidelines with no dog in the fight - then get all morally outraged at the plight of the Jews? *
> 
> Are you kidding me?  Is that how the WHITES act today?  Are there NO NATIONAL MEASURES to keep that from happening?  are you familair with OUR constitution at ALL?  You do realize that OURS was weighted in white mans favor, right?  That it has since become protection for ALL americans despite race, right?  What kind of bullshit paranoid crap are you trying to use as an excuse, due?  Your statement sounds EXACTLY like the reason blacks weren't allowed to own guns.  for real.. this is your second voyage into racist paranoia that we see every time a dominant population doesn't want to stop subjugating the minority.  I didn't realize Bunker was a jewish surname..




Are you on something? Seriously? You are somehow trying to equate ME politics with US politics?? That's it. I'm done and dusted. You're too stupid and/or ignorant and/or trolling to have a half decent conversation with. You have no idea what you are talking about. None whatsover...

Your whole argument is: Israel should cease to exist because they should not be there...


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## Shogun

*When did I ever call you names like "dirty ass goyim". I don't even think garbage like that, so attributing it to me as a means of deflecting the legitimate points I raised isn't very productive.*

When have I ever REMOTELY suggested that it's jews, and not israeli racism, that I have a problem with?  That certainly doesn't keep your lame assed inuendos from popping up to suggest as much.  Hey, why don't YOU quote where I've come even slightly close to hating on jews and I'll quote your inuendos and we can see which of us is actually making a valid point?  I mean, you can always AVOID the uncomfortable questions while slipping in some silly fucking assertion about my motivations and I can always beat you to the big bad A word.  Indeed, considering your total lack of consideration to my POSTED EVIDENCE probably makes you an expert on what isn't very productive.
*
In 1945, after 10 million people were killed (6 million jews and 5 million catholics, gays and assorted other German citizenry who also were too stupid to get out) you'd have been clamoring for a State of Israel because it was the right thing to do and no one else took the boats, did they?*

No, I would not have been clamoring for a racist state of an ethnically pure chosen race.  You see, I'm not the kind of person who makes excuses for segregation and I don't require the infamous jew hating excuse to kick jews out of my country.  I would have insisted that GERMANY take back their GERMAN jews instead of pretending that muslims in the mid east were going to willingly pay the price for your zionist hardon.  See, that's the difference between you and I:  You rely on racism to VALIDATE israel while I find racism repulsive even if it delivers your burning bush myth on a silver platter.  So, again, if YOU can say that the pals DESERVE their plight (fuck em, right?) because they dont CHOOSE to play according to the rules of their persicutors then, similarly, you shoudl also be able to say that the victims of the holocaust are partly responsible for landing in a concentration camp.  After all, (donning my best Jillian impression)  "jews CHOSE not to leave when told to do so and could have skipped the holocaust entirely by the virtue of their own stubbornness and unwillingness to see that germans wanted an ethnically PURE nation", right?  After all, if you can fathom an ethnically pure israel for JEWS then surely, SURELY you extend the same consideration to we dirty fucking goyim, right?

*Now, where is your criticism for Israel over the fact that it's been the only country to take in refugees from Darfur? The only country to take in the Falasha from Ethiopia. the only country to take in Soviet Jews. Jordan should have done as much for its palestinian refugees, don't you think?
Yeah, Israel really sucks.*


HA!

talk about strawmaning the arguement!  HAHAHAHAHA!  Yes, DARFEUR refugees TOTALLY make up for the pal refugees standing right outside the fucking doorway!  SURE, Jill.  sure.  Indeed, why is it that the keyword in who they took back was ([insert national]* JEWS*)?  

and yes, I bet the non-jews perspective who gets to live every day paying the price for european racism and jewish zionism israel DOES suck.  But, hey, no one expected a white dude in 1955 to think America was a hotbed of racial iniquity either so your refusal to even acknowledge the shit in israel isn't really all that surprising.


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## Shogun

Dr Grump said:


> So because Muslim countries aren't westernised you give them a free pass to be racist hellholes, but Israelis must commit hari kari? How benevolent of you..



I don't give anyone a free pass.  Maybe YOU want to dig up my posts that illustrate a younger generation standing up to Iranian status quo?  No?  Is it easier to insist bullshit instead of using my own words to decipher my motivation?  I take israel to task because ISRAEL, not saudi arabia, CLAIMS TO BE A WESTERN DEMOCRACY.  If you accept ethnic criteria in a western democracy then so be it.. but Pulling the Wookie arguement won't make you any less of a dipshit zionist enabler.  Here, let me illustrate since you seem to need a teaching aid:


*WESTERN NATIONS* 
Do NOT have an ethnic requirement for citizenship.  

Do NOT favor a single ethnic group 

WILL ALLOW MORE THAN THE MAJORITY RACE TO PARTICIPATE IN GOVERNMENT

DOES NOT MAKE EXCUSES regarding racist discrimination

DOES NOT INVALIDATE an election when the results don't mathc your hopeful projection

*NON-western nations*
DO have an ethnic requirement for citizenship

DOES favor a single ethnic group

WILL NOT allow anyone other than the majority ethnic race to participate in Govenrment

MAKES EVERY EXCUSE available for the exclusive RIGHTS of a particular ethnicity

WILL invalidate election results if they are not acceptable.



Maybe if you print that out and laminate it you can use it like Flash Cards!  I won't even ask you to guess which category sounds more like israel since, CLEARLY, nothing short of the sun blowing up will make you apply the same human standard to zionists that you will to muslims in half a heartbeat.


Say, if you'd like we can sit and generalize about muslims all day today.. you know, since they are not wrong if they are true and all.  Hell, maybe we can even go over some NAtive American history together and you can learn a few things about history repeating itself!


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## Shogun

Dr Grump said:


> Are you on something? Seriously? You are somehow trying to equate ME politics with US politics?? That's it. I'm done and dusted. You're too stupid and/or ignorant and/or trolling to have a half decent conversation with. You have no idea what you are talking about. None whatsover...
> 
> Your whole argument is: Israel should cease to exist because they should not be there...



No, IM not trying to equate US politics with ME politics.  I'm trying to apply the same WESTERN standard that the rest of us WESTERN NATIONS accept to a nation in the mid east that CLAIMS TO BE WESTERN BUT IS CLEARLY NOT.  But hey, I bet if you cry like a bitch and avoid the logic some more this Scarlet A on my sleeve will seem easier rationalized than facing my posted evidence.  I'm sure you are done.  go read a book instead of handing out black checks that perpetuate a human standard that you would not fucking tolerate if the very same were being used AGAINST the jews.


Like I said.. Don't be bitter because I handed you your ass yesterday on two occasions.  Learn from your mistake and move on.  Hell, if you lame bastards would have addressed the EVIDENCE that i've been posting instead of running to the easy Antisemite gun then you probably could have circumvented looking like s total fucking fool for trying to ratinalize stereotypes and being completely fucking ignorant about this same process happening to the Natives in America.


As it is, not a single one of you zionist enablers have come close to proving me wrong outside of demonizing my motivations.  Congrats, you've just become what you claim to hate in your political antithesis.


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## jillian

You know, you didn't come close to handing him anything. I think it's insane when the right-wingers start that crap. Coming from you on this issue where you've been shown to do nothing but rant, it's pretty laughable.


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## Shogun

jillian said:


> You know, you didn't come close to handing him anything. I think it's insane when the right-wingers start that crap. Coming from you on this issue where you've been shown to do nothing but rant, it's pretty laughable.



Laughable like your total avoidance to anything beyond typical zionist rhetoric?  Say, WHICH OF US is the one using evidence instead of the Scarlet A again?

oh.. yea.. silly me.



And, I realize that you'll throw your support behind anyone willing to polish the israeli turd but I busted his ass wide open yesterday on two points: rationalizing generalizations and his ignorance regarding the DEAL that the natives didn't accept which still led to the trail of tears.. I would have expected you to catch that if it were a topic critical of bush but.. given the difference and your willingness to be inconsistent when the chosen homeland is concerned....

Indeed, claim that the only guy posting EVIDENCE is ranting while you add 0 to your sum total of 0 non-rhetorical label inuendos..


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## Paulie

Kathianne said:


> So a state for Israelis should NOT exist, isn't that what is being said by the 2 last posters?



Of course not.  Or, I should say, of course it should.  It just shouldn't be pursued and supported by Zionism, that's all.  I can only speak for myself here, but when I talk about Zionism, and why I don't support it, I mean in terms of HOW they go about their agenda.  Basically, to sum it up, it's done through the barrel of a gun.  Much like the current US foreign policy.

Ever since Zionism, there's never been a viable attempt to solve the issue PEACEFULLY.  Maybe it has been reported as such, but it really hasn't been.  As long as the Palestinians are perceived as violent, Zionists will always be able to claim extra concession.

There is so much information that can be read to put away the ridiculous claim that being anti-zionist is automatically to be perceived as being anti-semitic.


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## eots

jillian said:


> Ohhhhhhhhhhhh... so Israel shouldn't exist for the purpose it was created. It should be some pathetic protectorate and not be soverign... it should give the palestinians a do-over.
> 
> Again. The Palestinians weren't ousted. They didn't control or *own* that land. It was nebulous... it was the only place in the mid-east with no oil. Why do you think that Europe decided to plant the Jewish refugees there. Like any other victor in war, Europe had the right to do what it wanted. Same as when it created Iraq... the UAE... etc. You complaining about those countries?
> 
> BTW, I don't find the term zionist an insult.
> 
> Nice dodge, btw, trying to hold Israel to some different standard so it no longer exists... cool. Duplicitous, but cool.
> 
> BTW, did you ever respond as to why you're so vested in this issue?



Israel has a right to exist but not in palistine..perhapes we could give them a fresh start and they can have Utah


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## Annie

Paulitics said:


> Of course not.  Or, I should say, of course it should.  It just shouldn't be pursued and supported by Zionism, that's all.  I can only speak for myself here, but when I talk about Zionism, and why I don't support it, I mean in terms of HOW they go about their agenda.  Basically, to sum it up, it's done through the barrel of a gun.  Much like the current US foreign policy.
> 
> Ever since Zionism, there's never been a viable attempt to solve the issue PEACEFULLY.  Maybe it has been reported as such, but it really hasn't been.  As long as the Palestinians are perceived as violent, Zionists will always be able to claim extra concession.
> 
> There is so much information that can be read to put away the ridiculous claim that being anti-zionist is automatically to be perceived as being anti-semitic.


Have you seen any way other than with force, which has been used only in reaction to aggression against it, that Israel would be able to exist? I'd like to know what 'land' would be kept by any country if it didn't have the 'force' to keep others from overrunning it?


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## eots

Kathianne said:


> Have you seen any way other than with force, which has been used only in reaction to aggression against it, that Israel would be able to exist? I'd like to know what 'land' would be kept by any country if it didn't have the 'force' to keep others from overrunning it?



yeah simple move to Utah!...if they can create all that in 60 years in a desert imagine what they could do with utah!...its a win/ win for everone


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## jillian

That's pretty bizarre. Why would we do that?


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## eots

because they need a  safe homeland and that one in the desert is not working out they are pissing off the neighbors.. ..and if we are so all fired up to see them have one we can give them some of country instead of someone Else's and if we are going to do that we might as well get rid of Utah as a bonus


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## Shogun

Rug Roh, Shaggy.. That's how I got to the point of suggesting Israel Texas...



Sounds good but we all know that those damn evil mormons would rise up and refuse to give up their land for the sake of a jewish nation.


There really is a valuable lesson in knowing that.


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