# For Vietnam Vets, an apology and thanks



## JenT (Aug 15, 2009)

As our nation cheers and applauds the homecoming of our troops these days, I'd like to say out loud what I know is felt by many Americans...

We are so very sorry, Vietnam Vets.

Although today's troops deserve our grateful support, it's obvious that America is being especially careful not to repeat our shameful past of blaming our troops, to support them and welcome them home, regardless of what we feel about politics.

I believe that we often add an extra spoonful of gratitude today because of our guilt over our treatment of the Vietnam vets and their homecoming. And I have to wonder, as the Vietnam vets watch the parades over today's heroes, do they recognize that part of it is meant for them? Sadly, I don't think so.

I remember the days of the Vietnam war, and the pictures I saw of the spitting on our soldiers at their homecoming, blood throwing, the protests, anger and hostility. I was just a kid, I didn't know any vets, but I remember thinking the treatment was just as my thoughts went along with the crowd, and for that, with all my heart, dear Viet Nam vets, I apologize.

Your sacrifices are so very appreciated, the wounds you continue to carry physically and in your hearts and your minds, are not forgotten. Every time I realize I am talking with a Vietnam vet, I have such a desire to hug you with sincere gratitude, but I never do, because I am certain it would be misunderstood. 

Vietnam vets don't like to talk about the war, or dwell upon it. It's rare that the identity is even disclosed, and once it is, that haunted look of steel comes over a Vietnam vet's face as memories flood their thoughts, and I know they want to drop the subject immediately. 

So I stand there, searching for words to change the subject, wishing I could express my gratitude but not knowing how. 

I believe much of America feels the same way. And when our troops come home from Iraq or Afghanistan or the Gulf, we clap a little louder, we cheer a little longer, and we throw larger parties.

But Vietnam Vets, please know that at the same time, so many of us are cheering you too. We gasp as the media reports our troops are worried they will be treated as you were. We are stabbed with guilt at the thought...and like most spoiled children, many of us quickly dismiss it, we don't like to admit guilt. So we exuberantly express it where we can, today, with our troops coming home, and hope that makes up for it. And it doesn't.

But make no mistake, we cheer for you too. And we grieve our past mistakes.

So as you watch the troops of today flooded with praise and glorious homecomings, and you feel a pang of hurt and anger as you remember your fallen friends, the horrors of war you went through, the sacrifices you made for us, to come home and be torn apart by us...all I can say is, please forgive us. I, for one, was an idiot. We all were. And we wish so much that we could find a way to express our gratitude. We can't undo the past, we can only ask for your forgiveness, I pray that you can.

I have looked for an organization to donate to, in expression of gratitude.  The best I could find was Closer Walk Ministries, but how can they or any organization even attempt to undo the damage we have done, reach all Vietnam Vets and express our gratitude? America, I think we missed our chance. 

You are heroes in my eyes. And when you hear the cheering of our troops today, please please know that many of us have you on our hearts, minds and prayers as well. God bless you. ~jen



> From Patrick O'Hannigan: ~ This is a story about a Viet Nam vet and Ann Margaret as told by the vet's wife:
> 
> Richard, (my husband), never really talked a lot about his time in Viet Nam other than he had been shot by a sniper. However, he had a rather grainy, 8 x 10 black and white photo he had taken at a USO show of Ann Margaret with Bob Hope in the background that was one of his treasures.
> 
> ...


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## Ralph (Aug 16, 2009)

JenT said:


> As our nation cheers and applauds the homecoming of our troops these days, I'd like to say out loud what I know is felt by many Americans...
> 
> We are so very sorry, Vietnam Vets.
> 
> ...



Do you know what I personally remember that sticks in my craw..even today?   Being left in the field...under combat conditions, without the needed medical supplies...because the GREAT LIBERALS of our LAND de-funded our supply line, while we were very much still under arms, simply to make a political move.    The last few months spent in country were terrible, MARVIN had to be lobbied to gain the needed supplies to preform my basic duties as a 91B, as MARVIN THE ARVIN had access to more supplies than we did.   We were nothing but human fodder.....pawns of the POLITICAL GAME.


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## JW Frogen (Aug 16, 2009)

Thanking losers is not the American way.

Electing them is a different story.


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## Diuretic (Aug 16, 2009)

The military are always going to be pawns.  The military is a political tool.  Decisions about use should be based on objective considerations and not emotion.  The fact is that war is a risky business, people get killed.  People who volunteer for military service know that they're entering a risky business and accept it, conscripts are forced into it.  Pawns all, always.


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## strollingbones (Aug 16, 2009)

please provide links to all these stories about americans spitting on and throwing blood on vietnam vets...cause most of that is simply bullshit....i welcomed home a soldier from two tours....and he is not the only one.....my friends did tours etc...i never remember anyone spitting or saying anything to them....this is one of the vietnam myths....please provide proof of what you have posted...

do you feel this way about vets from the uss liberty?  they were called liars etc...do you speak up for them too?


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## strollingbones (Aug 16, 2009)

By early April, stories were circulating in several US cities about uniformed military personnel being spat on or otherwise mistreated. In Asheville, North Carolina, two Marines were rumored to have been spat upon, while in Spokane, Washington, a threat to "spit on the troops when they return from Iraq" was reportedly issued. In Burlington, Vermont, a leader of the state National Guard told local television, "We've had some spitting incidents," and then claimed one of his Guardswomen had been stoned by anti-war teenagers. 

Upon further investigation, none of the stories panned out &#8212; the Spokane "threat" stemmed from the misreading of a letter in the local paper promising that opponents of the war would not spit on returning soldiers &#8212; and yet, in each case the rumors were used to stoke pro-war rallies. 

Vietnam Veterans Against the War: THE VETERAN: Spitting on the Troops: Old Myth, New Rumors


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## strollingbones (Aug 16, 2009)

What I did find is that around 1980, scores of Vietnam-generation men were saying they were greeted by spitters when they came home from Vietnam. There is an element of urban legend in the stories in that their point of origin in time and place is obscure, and, yet, they have very similar details. The story told by the man who spat on Jane Fonda at a book signing in Kansas City recently is typical. Michael Smith said he came back through Los Angeles airport where ''people were lined up to spit on us."

Like many stories of the spat-upon veteran genre, Smith's lacks credulity. GIs landed at military airbases, not civilian airports, and protesters could not have gotten onto the bases and anywhere near deplaning troops. There may have been exceptions, of course, but in those cases how would protesters have known in advance that a plane was being diverted to a civilian site? And even then, returnees would have been immediately bused to nearby military installations and processed for reassignment or discharge.

Boston.com / News / Boston Globe / Opinion / Op-ed / Debunking a spitting image


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## Ravi (Aug 16, 2009)

Plagiarism is a no no, Jen. You should be ashamed of yourself.

Also, the post you pretended as yours is full of errors.

If you want to apologize to vets, go right ahead. Don't apologize on behalf of anyone else.


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## editec (Aug 16, 2009)

Most of the shit I got wasn't from anti-war protestors.

It was from peckerheaded WWII and Korean Vets.

But to be fair, most of the aforementioned who gave us shit were barstool heros, too.

Mostly we're weren't treated badly when we got home, we were just ignored to death.


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## Full-Auto (Aug 16, 2009)

strollingbones said:


> By early April, stories were circulating in several US cities about uniformed military personnel being spat on or otherwise mistreated. In Asheville, North Carolina, two Marines were rumored to have been spat upon, while in Spokane, Washington, a threat to "spit on the troops when they return from Iraq" was reportedly issued. In Burlington, Vermont, a leader of the state National Guard told local television, "We've had some spitting incidents," and then claimed one of his Guardswomen had been stoned by anti-war teenagers.
> 
> Upon further investigation, none of the stories panned out  the Spokane "threat" stemmed from the misreading of a letter in the local paper promising that opponents of the war would not spit on returning soldiers  and yet, in each case the rumors were used to stoke pro-war rallies.
> 
> Vietnam Veterans Against the War: THE VETERAN: Spitting on the Troops: Old Myth, New Rumors



Myth?  LOL  There was a female in 1975 at the seatac airport that would disagree.  I am not sure if it was her black eye or her hurt feelings from being punched in the face that causes me to point it out.


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## editec (Aug 16, 2009)

Full-Auto said:


> strollingbones said:
> 
> 
> > By early April, stories were circulating in several US cities about uniformed military personnel being spat on or otherwise mistreated. In Asheville, North Carolina, two Marines were rumored to have been spat upon, while in Spokane, Washington, a threat to "spit on the troops when they return from Iraq" was reportedly issued. In Burlington, Vermont, a leader of the state National Guard told local television, "We've had some spitting incidents," and then claimed one of his Guardswomen had been stoned by anti-war teenagers.
> ...


 
Reads like bullshit to me, lad.


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## Dis (Aug 16, 2009)

Ravi said:


> Plagiarism is a no no, Jen. You should be ashamed of yourself.
> 
> Also, the post you pretended as yours is full of errors.
> 
> If you want to apologize to vets, go right ahead. Don't apologize on behalf of anyone else.



Here I thought I was the only person that noticed that....


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## JenT (Aug 16, 2009)

Ralph said:


> JenT said:
> 
> 
> > As our nation cheers and applauds the homecoming of our troops these days, I'd like to say out loud what I know is felt by many Americans...
> ...



Bless you Ralph, and thank you so much for fighting for us. I've heard about how difficult it was when we pulled out (and before) and what happened after we left.

Our nation has been the reason so many other nations are able to stand in freedom. The strength of our military and capabilities has kept so many other nations in check and afforded freedom worldwide. And we get kicked around by other nations for it, just like our police do. We don't appreciate them, even resent their patroling us, until we need them. We don't think about the chaos that would ensue if we didn't have them.

But now other nations are starting to feel the heat as our nation is basically resigning from defending even ourselves. Suddenly those nations that could afford to be arrogant about their neutral stance are beginning to get nervous as Obama bows down to Muslim nations. Starting to realize the threat (a bit late) France is working to outlaw burkas completely. http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/france-split-over-plan-to-outlaw-burqa-1710747.html All these nations that could brag about not needing to get involved in the power struggle because America was willing to stand in the gap, are now realizing our efforts, our strength, our troops that volunteered to stand up against tyranny worldwide...well it's amazing how much people will miss you after you're gone. 

So THANK YOU Ralph, for being a part of that military force that kept other nations in check. Even though you were not supported on the field, even though our political unrest at home caused the fallout to be so lethal, I for one am extremely grateful. How many families in how many countries slept better at night because of our presence, we will never know. But as we are being led into a one-world system by our socialist president, I fear the appreciation will be too late.


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## JenT (Aug 16, 2009)

JW Frogen said:


> Thanking losers is not the American way.
> 
> Electing them is a different story.



Our heroes didn't lose. Our politicians did. I'm going to assume that's what you meant.


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## Toome (Aug 16, 2009)

Diuretic said:


> The military are always going to be pawns.  The military is a political tool.  Decisions about use should be based on objective considerations and not emotion.  The fact is that war is a risky business, people get killed.  People who volunteer for military service know that they're entering a risky business and accept it, conscripts are forced into it.  Pawns all, always.



I don't look for anyone to give me any thanks.  I'm happy as hell to be home and in one piece.  I get to grow old with my wife.  But whenever someone does thank me for my service, I'm grateful and humbled because I see it as nothing more than just doing my job.  But it feels good to be appreciated.

I don't disagree with you that the military is a political pawn of those in power.  I see that as a reality.  Clauswitz said it many years ago, "war is a continuation of politics by other means."

Our pawns really kick ass, though.


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## JenT (Aug 16, 2009)

Diuretic said:


> The military are always going to be pawns.  The military is a political tool.  Decisions about use should be based on objective considerations and not emotion.  The fact is that war is a risky business, people get killed.  People who volunteer for military service know that they're entering a risky business and accept it, conscripts are forced into it.  Pawns all, always.



And you wrote that from the comfort of your home, sitting at a desk behind your computer while our military is out there making their presence known so that you can have that comfort.

Did you serve in the military? I hope so. Because if you didn't, and wrote what you just wrote...


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## Toome (Aug 16, 2009)

JW Frogen said:


> Thanking losers is not the American way.
> 
> Electing them is a different story.



Don't know what you mean by losers.  If you bother to do some research, you'll find that the American military won every single decisive battle in that shithole.  Even the Tet Offensive, which liberals paint as a humiliating defeat for US forces was, in reality, a military disaster for the North Vietnamese.  The Viet Cong were eliminated in short order.  This one was lost by the politicians because they lacked the will to go for the kill.  Instead, they prolonged the war.

There are a lot of valuable lessons-learned from Vietnam.  Had we, as a nation, embraced those lessons rather than try to bury our experience there in shame, then perhaps we wouldn't have gotten into the mess we're currently in at Iraq and Afghanistan.

To those who've been there, done that:  welcome home, brothers

*RANGERS LEAD THE WAY!*


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## JenT (Aug 16, 2009)

strollingbones said:


> please provide links to all these stories about americans spitting on and throwing blood on vietnam vets...cause most of that is simply bullshit....i welcomed home a soldier from two tours....and he is not the only one.....my friends did tours etc...i never remember anyone spitting or saying anything to them....this is one of the vietnam myths....please provide proof of what you have posted...
> 
> do you feel this way about vets from the uss liberty?  they were called liars etc...do you speak up for them too?



I had no idea anyone would need to provide proof. Maybe it's because I live in California and during that time we were flooded with all the hippies and all the protests. I was just a kid but I remember looking up to my hippie neighbor and idolizing him as he went into his rants about the war. I believe it was a Life Magazine that my older sister kept for years that had graphic pictures of picketers protesting as our men came home. And I remember how I idolized my sister and my neighbor and their views, and that's why I personally am ashamed. 

It was no myth. And the reason I wrote that article a few years ago when our troops were just starting to take on Iraq was I remember hearing from SO MANY that our troops were worried when they got back they would be treated like the Vietnam Vets were.

At first we were all nervous when they first started coming home, the news seemed poised to report any problems, but everyone seemed careful not to go down that road again and it seemed they were fully supported and the fears dwindled. There were a lot of welcome homes and I couldn't stop thinking about how that felt to the Vietnam vets. The contrast. That had to be hard. And I still think, in spite of the posts I have yet to get to, that there was an extra helping of assurance for that very reason. Because those of us who can remember, do. And I have to think those who flame me for this thread must be a lot younger than I am. Or else buried in some state where they didn't see all this stuff going on. Because it was HUGE in California.


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## JenT (Aug 16, 2009)

strollingbones said:


> By early April, stories were circulating in several US cities about uniformed military personnel being spat on or otherwise mistreated. In Asheville, North Carolina, two Marines were rumored to have been spat upon, while in Spokane, Washington, a threat to "spit on the troops when they return from Iraq" was reportedly issued. In Burlington, Vermont, a leader of the state National Guard told local television, "We've had some spitting incidents," and then claimed one of his Guardswomen had been stoned by anti-war teenagers.
> 
> Upon further investigation, none of the stories panned out &#8212; the Spokane "threat" stemmed from the misreading of a letter in the local paper promising that opponents of the war would not spit on returning soldiers &#8212; and yet, in each case the rumors were used to stoke pro-war rallies.
> 
> Vietnam Veterans Against the War: THE VETERAN: Spitting on the Troops: Old Myth, New Rumors



What a disgusting liberal spin. Is the left so ashamed of what they did to our vets that you have to spin something like this? 

Or maybe it's because you want to blindly repeat what happened before? 

First you cut the legs under our military, then the left spits at them as they come home, and now after public sentiment changes about the whole thing and the left wants to carry on with the same infantile protests you just spin that the mistreatment of the Vietnam vets never happened?

I cannot fathom anyone could possibly claim what happened didn't happen, but I wouldn't put it past the libs to just make up anything they want and pretend it to be so. You live in a fantasy world and in your fantasy you can just make all war go away and everyone will hug each other and war will be over and no one will attack anyone. Even though the whole history of humankind has been nothing but tyranny and survival of the fittest, I suppose you think we live in a civilized world where there is no greed because you were brought up in an American home of abundance and can't comprehend why anyone would fight.

Your bubble is about to explode.


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## JenT (Aug 16, 2009)

strollingbones said:


> What I did find is that around 1980, scores of Vietnam-generation men were saying they were greeted by spitters when they came home from Vietnam. There is an element of urban legend in the stories in that their point of origin in time and place is obscure, and, yet, they have very similar details. The story told by the man who spat on Jane Fonda at a book signing in Kansas City recently is typical. Michael Smith said he came back through Los Angeles airport where ''people were lined up to spit on us."
> 
> Like many stories of the spat-upon veteran genre, Smith's lacks credulity. GIs landed at military airbases, not civilian airports, and protesters could not have gotten onto the bases and anywhere near deplaning troops. There may have been exceptions, of course, but in those cases how would protesters have known in advance that a plane was being diverted to a civilian site? And even then, returnees would have been immediately bused to nearby military installations and processed for reassignment or discharge.
> 
> Boston.com / News / Boston Globe / Opinion / Op-ed / Debunking a spitting image



Oh yeah, I can picture it now. After trudging through the jungles of Vietnam, seeing his buddies blown apart, feeling stranded and ill equipped, told to claw his way through Hamburger Hill, ACTUALLY SURVIVES to come home, what few men finally get here are greeted by a bunch of pansy hippie protesters spitting at them. A reporter rushes up, eager to get a picture but unfortunately spitting takes a split second with no warning and he didn't get the shot...so he asks the soldier, fresh from Vietnam,  WERE YOU SPIT ON??? HOW DID IT FEEL???

I wonder how many reporters got flattened before they learned to shut up.


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## JenT (Aug 16, 2009)

Ravi said:


> Plagiarism is a no no, Jen. You should be ashamed of yourself.
> 
> Also, the post you pretended as yours is full of errors.
> 
> If you want to apologize to vets, go right ahead. Don't apologize on behalf of anyone else.



How can my post be full of errors, it's all opinion. I quoted Patrick O'Hannigan, a journalist that wrote me after I posted what I wrote on my website. What is the matter with you Ravi? If anybody should be ashamed, it's not me, it's not the vets, it's anybody who tries to rewrite history. 

And if you're going to accuse me of plagerism, you should post where you found it anywhere else. I'm curious to see if someone plagerized me.


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## JenT (Aug 16, 2009)

Dis said:


> Ravi said:
> 
> 
> > Plagiarism is a no no, Jen. You should be ashamed of yourself.
> ...



Did you?

Or did you just neg rep and pile on without looking?

The only other place I could find what I wrote was at my own website. If you notice at the end it says   "-Jen"   That would be me. 

Maybe you should research a little more before you go attacking.


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## JenT (Aug 16, 2009)

editec said:


> Most of the shit I got wasn't from anti-war protestors.
> 
> It was from peckerheaded WWII and Korean Vets.
> 
> ...



and we shouldn't have been silent. Thank you so much, editec


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## JenT (Aug 16, 2009)

Toome said:


> Diuretic said:
> 
> 
> > The military are always going to be pawns.  The military is a political tool.  Decisions about use should be based on objective considerations and not emotion.  The fact is that war is a risky business, people get killed.  People who volunteer for military service know that they're entering a risky business and accept it, conscripts are forced into it.  Pawns all, always.
> ...



It was a lot more than just doing your job to me, Toome, and I know you didn't do it for thanks but thank you just the same. I appreciate that I grew up in a country that was free. The more I study other cultures the more I appreciate it, all the time. God bless you.


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## JenT (Aug 16, 2009)

Toome said:


> JW Frogen said:
> 
> 
> > Thanking losers is not the American way.
> ...



[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gr9Zb3sTfYg]YouTube - the gratitude campaign (short)[/ame]


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## JenT (Aug 16, 2009)

Ravi, should the following be MY new sig line? Because yours is looking hypocritical



> Xsited to Ravi -
> "I don't mind people with strong opinions unless they make a habit of mischaracterizing people and/or it's obvious they consistently lie."
> 
> Ravi - "Plagiarism is a no no, Jen. You should be ashamed of yourself."
> ...


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## Gunny (Aug 16, 2009)

strollingbones said:


> please provide links to all these stories about americans spitting on and throwing blood on vietnam vets...cause most of that is simply bullshit....i welcomed home a soldier from two tours....and he is not the only one.....my friends did tours etc...i never remember anyone spitting or saying anything to them....this is one of the vietnam myths....please provide proof of what you have posted...
> 
> do you feel this way about vets from the uss liberty?  they were called liars etc...do you speak up for them too?



No links required.  The footage has been shown on the tube enough that it is common knowledge; whether, you wish to live in denial or not.

North Carolina is a LONG way from the Left Coast, bones ...


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## Ralph (Aug 16, 2009)

strollingbones said:


> please provide links to all these stories about americans spitting on and throwing blood on vietnam vets...cause most of that is simply bullshit....i welcomed home a soldier from two tours....and he is not the only one.....my friends did tours etc...i never remember anyone spitting or saying anything to them....this is one of the vietnam myths....please provide proof of what you have posted...
> 
> do you feel this way about vets from the uss liberty?  they were called liars etc...do you speak up for them too?



What idiocy.  There are hundreds of documented examples of disrespect that some sections of our society have for our military, and there have been from the time this nation was founded.  And certainly there are examples of such in the history of this "police action" that was never formerly declared a war......but the majority of the Spitting that came from society was when one was attempting to morph back into society, not while wearing a uniform, as I was so ashamed of, my uniform, my hair, my personal habits or anything that reminded me directly of what I just survived that I practically hid from society........AND SLEEP, for the 1st decade that I was home, I allowed my hair to grow to my tail.   It was not the spiting on the face the majority of us vets resented.......its was the simple, Welcome Home son......and a friendly pat on the back..WELL DONE,  but this is not what happened.  We were blamed for the decisions that were made by politicians.  And now the same type of politicians are symbolically spitting on us again.   

  We were looked upon as worthless losers not being worthy of even addressing....might less  spitting  on.    Instead of days or months to adapt back into society......it took years.   We...the soldier had no problem with what we did.   We did nothing that our fathers or their fathers had not done before us......the problem was with society and the indoctrination that had taken place.........No one in America likes a loser...as the majority of our great liberal friends are BAND WAGON jumpers that enjoy the false accolade of their comrades more than they do the truth.   Which they never where polite enough to even ask us about.........no testimony from the people that actually had their ass in grass, so they the accolade seekers could enjoy their wagon ride.

No we did not fight for AMERICA.....our societal friends made sure we new that as we were reminded on a daily basis......we fought for EACH OTHER...one another, not for fame or glory...or even respect, but simple survival....WE SIMPLY wanted to make it home to our family...to our real lives, to simply wake up from this nightmare, which is exactly the way that I remember it.   A bad dream that MUST, for sanities sake, be pushed back into  a corner of ones mind, that on occasion jumps back into  the conscious like a bolt of lightening......it might take something so simple as smelling diesel fuel, or just looking into the face of a child.   You live in fear of that nightmare surfacing..never knowing when or where.   The longer removed the better it was for me.......but some have NEVER AWAKENED, or some simply could not stop the faces from showing up.......and took the easy way out.   They died, ashamed, and feeling just like what they were constantly told they were......WORTHLESS LOSERS.


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## JakeStarkey (Aug 16, 2009)

Whether drafted or enlisted, once you are in then you are subject to the UCMJ.

So, yes, all military are pawns.  That is just a fact.  Dad and I were talking the other night (now he was real war hero, I just did my duty), and he reminded me that old men send young men out to die.  It's always been that way, and it always will be.  Bush didn't really understand that; Cheney did, but did not care.

To all of you Americans who have served anywhere and everywhere, subject to the good and to the bad, congrats that you are home with your families.  And let's get those VA facilities fixed, although I will admit mine is outstanding along with the customer service there.


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## Luissa (Aug 16, 2009)

Gunny said:


> strollingbones said:
> 
> 
> > please provide links to all these stories about americans spitting on and throwing blood on vietnam vets...cause most of that is simply bullshit....i welcomed home a soldier from two tours....and he is not the only one.....my friends did tours etc...i never remember anyone spitting or saying anything to them....this is one of the vietnam myths....please provide proof of what you have posted...
> ...


the shit still happens today.
My ex boyfriend was coming home from Korea after the Irag war started and he was laid over in Salt Lake City and some women spit on him.


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## Luissa (Aug 16, 2009)

JenT said:


> As our nation cheers and applauds the homecoming of our troops these days, I'd like to say out loud what I know is felt by many Americans...
> 
> We are so very sorry, Vietnam Vets.
> 
> ...


good post!


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## Diuretic (Aug 16, 2009)

Toome said:


> Diuretic said:
> 
> 
> > The military are always going to be pawns.  The military is a political tool.  Decisions about use should be based on objective considerations and not emotion.  The fact is that war is a risky business, people get killed.  People who volunteer for military service know that they're entering a risky business and accept it, conscripts are forced into it.  Pawns all, always.
> ...



Pawns around the world kick arse indeed.  Yours included.


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## Diuretic (Aug 16, 2009)

JenT said:


> Diuretic said:
> 
> 
> > The military are always going to be pawns.  The military is a political tool.  Decisions about use should be based on objective considerations and not emotion.  The fact is that war is a risky business, people get killed.  People who volunteer for military service know that they're entering a risky business and accept it, conscripts are forced into it.  Pawns all, always.
> ...



No  I have never served in the military. 

Yes I wrote this at home.  

The military is out there doing the job for which it is employed.  

Volunteers all.

Which brings me to think - what's your point?


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## strollingbones (Aug 16, 2009)

look jen i have no clue how old you are...but i grew up with vietnam....i was at many times places where vietnam vets were returning...matter of fact the last large group of mia/pows came to bragg

another thing before you accuse me of liberal spin you best know what the fuck you are talking about...as for what i know...i know what i lived...you know what you barely can read but seem to be able to copy and paste....

gunny how many times do you think someone got spit on?  jen acts like it was ever damn vietnam vet who came home...it was not....it was the rare exception that people were treated like this...its sad that men who didnt serve claim to be vets etc...what is even sadder is the stupid ass spin being put on this by some dumbass rah rah chick (yes  jen i mean you)  and everyone is just buying  into it...i am sorry where i was...men and women were treated with respect and honor...i dont need anyone saying they are sorry for the way i treated anyone...


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## JenT (Aug 16, 2009)

strollingbones said:


> look jen i have no clue how old you are...but i grew up with vietnam....i was at many times places where vietnam vets were returning...matter of fact the last large group of mia/pows came to bragg
> 
> another thing before you accuse me of liberal spin you best know what the fuck you are talking about...as for what i know...i know what i lived...you know what you barely can read but seem to be able to copy and paste....
> 
> gunny how many times do you think someone got spit on?  jen acts like it was ever damn vietnam vet who came home...it was not....it was the rare exception that people were treated like this...its sad that men who didnt serve claim to be vets etc...what is even sadder is the stupid ass spin being put on this by some dumbass rah rah chick (yes  jen i mean you)  and everyone is just buying  into it...i am sorry where i was...men and women were treated with respect and honor...i dont need anyone saying they are sorry for the way i treated anyone...



strollingbones, I was one of MANY in California, and all those who aggressively dissed our troops coming home, THOSE are the ones I'm apologizing for. Something that has been LONG overdue. Something that a LOT of people agreed with when I put it on my website, and wrote about it.

If you're not one of those, fine, I think you made that point. Good for you. But I also know what I saw and heard and it was NOT welcoming. The "FEW" that got spit on were ALL ONE TOO MANY, and when one was spit on, they all were. And the picture I remember, I think it was Life Magazine, had a BUCKET OF MUD involved.

And do you think for one second that it was a welcome home parade and oh, ONE person decided to spit? The spitting was the percolation of the sentiment that was going on. And it was disgusting. Go ahead and defend it. I know what it was. I didn't spit on anybody but I thought they were right at the time because i was so young. So I felt a need to write an apology. TOO BAD if you don't like the font space I took up doing it.

It was SHAMEFUL how our men were treated coming home and in my opinion, it's SHAMEFUL that people are trying to rewrite those times, deny it, and refuse to apologize for it. 

And as for people buying into anything that I write, look again, I got PLENTY of garbage from many here just because I'm the one that wrote it. I think anyone that has the nerve to agree with anything that I write is doing so in spite of the backlash that they'd get because they agreed with me.

Funny you would call me a "rah-rah" chick, because that's exactly what I wish I had been, and what those men deserved.


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## strollingbones (Aug 16, 2009)

so you are ashamed of how you behaved...then you be sorry for yourself....i did nothing to be ashamed of  and i refuse to listen to your bullshit....the rah rah was very sarcastic....i bet you didnt even feel your hair move..


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## JenT (Aug 16, 2009)

strollingbones said:


> another thing before you accuse me of liberal spin you best know what the fuck you are talking about...as for what i know...i know what i lived...you know what you barely can read but seem to be able to copy and paste....



If you're still referring to Dis and Ravi accusing and neg repping me because of plagerizing, you must have missed the posts where I explained, I WROTE the original article. It's not my fault you guys are so fast to accuse you can't read who the freaking author was in the first place.


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## BasicGreatGuy (Aug 16, 2009)

Jen,
You can't offer an apology for the actions of other people, whom you had no control over in the first place. It is illogical to do so. 

Giving thanks for sacrifice in service is apropos.


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## JenT (Aug 16, 2009)

strollingbones said:


> so you are ashamed of how you behaved...then you be sorry for yourself....i did nothing to be ashamed of  and i refuse to listen to your bullshit....the rah rah was very sarcastic....i bet you didnt even feel your hair move..



Like I said, I got way more letters of thanks and agreement than I ever expected. Including the add on by Patrick, who wrote something along those lines himself soon after.

So you don't agree, again, fine. But society owes our men an apology and I was happy to give it.


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## strollingbones (Aug 16, 2009)

JenT said:


> strollingbones said:
> 
> 
> > another thing before you accuse me of liberal spin you best know what the fuck you are talking about...as for what i know...i know what i lived...you know what you barely can read but seem to be able to copy and paste....
> ...



unlike you..i do not speak for anyone else...nor does anyone else speak for me...i assure you i have no part in what dis and ravi did or said...nor have i negged you....you seem to like to try to smear your bullshit on as many as you can


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## strollingbones (Aug 16, 2009)

you are so full of shit....your eyes must be brown....you do not speak for anyone but yourself.....you cannot atone for anyone but yourself...i am sorry that your actions toward the men returning has haunted you this long..perhaps gunny is right....cause other than a watermelon seed i have never seen a woman spit at anything for any reason....but your shame is yours...dont try to smear everyone esle with it to make yourself feel better how many years later???


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## JenT (Aug 16, 2009)

BasicGreatGuy said:


> Jen,
> You can't offer an apology for the actions of other people, whom you had no control over in the first place. It is illogical to do so.
> 
> Giving thanks for sacrifice in service is apropos.



Sure I can. Because in spite of what's happening on THIS message board (from which some of the people are losing respect real fast from where I sit) the majority of society agrees with me. 

The only reason I can't apologize for society effectively is I'm not a big name. But for my part, I just did.


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## JenT (Aug 16, 2009)

strollingbones said:


> you are so full of shit....your eyes must be brown....you do not speak for anyone but yourself.....you cannot atone for anyone but yourself...i am sorry that your actions toward the men returning has haunted you this long..perhaps gunny is right....cause other than a watermelon seed i have never seen a woman spit at anything for any reason....but your shame is yours...dont try to smear everyone esle with it to make yourself feel better how many years later???



no strollingbones, there is nothing about this thread that makes me feel any better. I'm pretty much shocked that people could object to an apology long overdue. It's really kind of sickening.


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## BasicGreatGuy (Aug 16, 2009)

JenT said:


> BasicGreatGuy said:
> 
> 
> > Jen,
> ...



You can't apologize for other people. That is often done by a lot of people today. It doesn't make it any less stupid. 

You are accountable for your actions then and now. If you showed disrespect to any of the troops then, then yes, give an apology in that light. If you aren't guilty of such, then you have no reason to apologize much less any business trying to apologize for others. 

To offer up an apology as you have done, even with good intentions, is to offer up a hollow and meaningless apology, in my opinion.


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## BasicGreatGuy (Aug 16, 2009)

Were some troops mistreated in some way? Yes, they were. That is for those that did the mistreating to apologize for, if they have any character at all. 

You are taking this personal when you shouldn't Jen. You are trying to shoulder the "sins" of society and make some kind of atonement for that. That is not your place. 

I had family in nam. I have never and would never make the kind of apology to them that you have made here. Why? Because I didn't do anything wrong to them, or any other troop at home or in country.  To me, that would be arrogant and insulting to them to do so.


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## JenT (Aug 16, 2009)

BasicGreatGuy said:


> JenT said:
> 
> 
> > BasicGreatGuy said:
> ...



I know that my neighbor and my sister have changed their views dramatically. So has the view of MOST of society. That's why movies like Rambo SKYROCKETED. But nobody wants to admit they were wrong, and the change of sentiment came way late for the returning war hero, many of who are still suffering from those days. Ever get involved with a vet? Watch them sleep with shouts and sweat and wake up shouting? Ever drive a bus and get to know the homeless, and find out how many are Vietnam Vets? Oh they won't tell you, they don't whine about anything. They just suffer silently. Just like every Vietnam vet I've ever met that got that cold steeled look in their eye every time it came out they served in Vietnam, and you have to tred carefully around it because you know it's NOT something they want to talk about. 

Ever work for mental health and get trained that if any Vietnam Vet calls in about feeling suicidal to drop everything immediately because they are the number one completed suicide group, bar none. Not one ever called though. They're too proud, and they have reason to be, and I'm sure no one could help them as much as someone else who's been through it. Someone that knows what it's like to...

now THATS what I CAN'T write about because I don't know. I wasn't there. It would be disrespectful to try.

But I can apologize and I have. And I can speak for society because I've seen the change in attitude. And if anyone doesn't like it, pffffft, I don't care.


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## JenT (Aug 16, 2009)

BasicGreatGuy said:


> Were some troops mistreated in some way? Yes, they were. That is for those that did the mistreating to apologize for, if they have any character at all.
> 
> You are taking this personal when you shouldn't Jen. You are trying to shoulder the "sins" of society and make some kind of atonement for that. That is not your place.
> 
> I had family in nam. I have never and would never make the kind of apology to them that you have made here. Why? *Because I didn't do anything wrong to them*, or any other troop at home or in country.  To me, that would be arrogant and insulting to them to do so.



And clearly I'm not apologizing for you. But because I internally and quietly agreed with those that did, I DO have the right to apologize for the faceless mobs that were there. How you can see arrogance in that is beyond me, it's hard to admit I agreed.


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## JakeStarkey (Aug 16, 2009)

JenT said:


> strollingbones said:
> 
> 
> > you are so full of shit....your eyes must be brown....you do not speak for anyone but yourself.....you cannot atone for anyone but yourself...i am sorry that your actions toward the men returning has haunted you this long..perhaps gunny is right....cause other than a watermelon seed i have never seen a woman spit at anything for any reason....but your shame is yours...dont try to smear everyone esle with it to make yourself feel better how many years later???
> ...



I accept your apology.

I also accept Jane Fonda's when she came out and did the right thing.

'bones has every right to feel as she does, too, but I will let her worry about she reacts to everyone else.

Once again, thanks.


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## BasicGreatGuy (Aug 16, 2009)

JenT said:


> BasicGreatGuy said:
> 
> 
> > Were some troops mistreated in some way? Yes, they were. That is for those that did the mistreating to apologize for, if they have any character at all.
> ...



You have the right to issue a hollow apology if that is what you wish to do. 

It is arrogant to not only assume you have the right to speak for your fellow Americans,  it is also arrogant to assume you have a duty to speak for your fellow Americans who were out of line then. 

Whether we agreed with the war or not, the brave men and women who went deserve a thank you, in my opinion. 

If you have something inside yourself you need to atone for and make right, I understand that aspect. Leave the apologies for those that actually need to make them. That is how it is supposed to work. 

I am not ragging on you. I understand what you are trying to do. I just think you are going about it the wrong way. 

I have never apologized for something I was not responsible for in some way. I don't understand the need some people have in apologizing in that manner. It makes no sense. It is akin to admitting to a crime you did not commit, and being locked up for it. Why do that do yourself?


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## JenT (Aug 16, 2009)

JakeStarkey said:


> JenT said:
> 
> 
> > strollingbones said:
> ...



Thank YOU Jake, really, I wish we had the sense to say so back then.


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## JenT (Aug 16, 2009)

BasicGreatGuy said:


> JenT said:
> 
> 
> > BasicGreatGuy said:
> ...



BGG, I've already said, I'm not apologizing for you. I'm glad you didn't see it the way many of us did back then. 

And I wrote:



> As our nation cheers and applauds the homecoming of our troops these days, I'd like to say out loud what I know is *felt by many Americans...*
> 
> We are so very sorry, Vietnam Vets.



And I'm saying it again, and MANY Americans agree with me.

I know for a fact they do. I don't know anyone that doesn't regret what happened to our troops when they came home. 

I can only imagine some take issue with it because they are actively trying to withdraw our troops today in the same way.

I couldn't believe it when a friend of mine told me he's part of a Harley Davidson Biker group, he said there are thousands of them all over the country and they go and surround the ports that our troops come home at and make sure nobody disses them. I said "No way, nobody would do that today" According to him, they do. He said I would be shocked at what goes on. I don't know if it's true, but that's what he told me. It's just so hard for me to believe.


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## Ravi (Aug 16, 2009)

Gunny said:


> strollingbones said:
> 
> 
> > please provide links to all these stories about americans spitting on and throwing blood on vietnam vets...cause most of that is simply bullshit....i welcomed home a soldier from two tours....and he is not the only one.....my friends did tours etc...i never remember anyone spitting or saying anything to them....this is one of the vietnam myths....please provide proof of what you have posted...
> ...


I've never seen it. Please be kind enough to show your evidence.


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## Ravi (Aug 16, 2009)

Jen...you wrote that yourself? How embarrassing. Please post these pics you've seen of Vietnam Vets being spit on. Thanks.


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## rightwinger (Aug 16, 2009)

_From: Drooling on VietNam Vets Jack Scaefer_

Lembcke uncovered a whole lot of spitting from the war years, but the published accounts always put the antiwar protester on the receiving side of a blast from a pro-Vietnam counterprotester. Surely, he contends, the news pages would have given equal treatment to a story about serviceman getting the treatment. Then why no stories in the newspaper morgues, he asks?

Lastly, there are the parts of the spitting story up that don't add up. Why does it always end with the protester spitting and the serviceman walking off in shame? Most servicemen would have given the spitters a mouthful of bloody Chiclets instead of turning the other cheek like Christ. At the very least, wouldn't the altercations have resulted in assault and battery charges and produced a paper trail retrievable across the decades?

The myth persists because: 1) Those who didn't go to Vietnam--that being most of us--don't dare contradict the "experience" of those who did; 2) the story helps maintain the perfect sense of shame many of us feel about the way we ignored our Vietvets; 3) the press keeps the story in play by uncritically repeating it, as the Times and U.S. News did; and 4) because any fool with 33 cents and the gumption to repeat the myth in his letter to the editor can keep it in circulation. Most recent mentions of the spitting protester in Nexis are of this variety.

As press crimes go, the myth of the spitting protester ain't even a misdemeanor. Reporters can't be expected to fact-check every quotation. But it does teach us a journalistic lesson: Never lend somebody a sympathetic ear just because he's sympathetic.


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## JenT (Aug 16, 2009)

rightwinger said:


> _From: Drooling on VietNam Vets Jack Scaefer_
> 
> *3) the press keeps the story in play by uncritically repeating it, as the Times and U.S. News did; *and



If there was no story, how did the Times and U.S. News keep repeating it?


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## rightwinger (Aug 17, 2009)

The truth of the matter is that for the most part, it was the hippies and protesters who were being spit on for voicing their views. This is what was reported in the 60s not that Viet Vets were spit on. The spitting on Vets story came out decades later as a way to describe poor threatment of Vets.
And yes, we did treat them poorly. But the reason there were no parades was not because of the Liberals or Hippies. It was the WWII vets that treated the Viet Nam vets the worst. The WWII vets were the men in power, the mayors, councilmen who could have arranged parades for returning vets. There were no hippie mayors at the time.
The reason they didn't was that WWII vets looked at Viet Nam vets as drug addicts and losers while their war was a noble victory


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## JenT (Aug 17, 2009)

an all new low

truly living in la la land


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## editec (Aug 17, 2009)

rightwinger said:


> _From: Drooling on VietNam Vets Jack Scaefer_
> 
> Lembcke uncovered a whole lot of spitting from the war years, but the published accounts always put the antiwar protester on the receiving side of a blast from a pro-Vietnam counterprotester. Surely, he contends, the news pages would have given equal treatment to a story about serviceman getting the treatment. Then why no stories in the newspaper morgues, he asks?


 
Because it is a fabrication, perhaps?



> Lastly, there are the parts of the spitting story up that don't add up. Why does it always end with the protester spitting and the serviceman walking off in shame?


 
Because that is the other half of the myth. The myth that Am servicemen were all losers.



> Most servicemen would have given the spitters a mouthful of bloody Chiclets instead of turning the other cheek like Christ.


 

Goddamned right they would have.




> At the very least, wouldn't the altercations have resulted in assault and battery charges and produced a paper trail retrievable across the decades?


 
Astute deduction, but not one that will put a stake though this cherished myth's heart, I fear.

People WANT to believe that _"dirty hippies spit on returning Vets"_

Pure bullshit, of course. 

By the end of the war the anti-war movement was largely being run by EX Viet Nam vets. 

I can assure you they were not spitting on their former comrades in arms.



> The myth persists because: 1) Those who didn't go to Vietnam--that being most of us--don't dare contradict the "experience" of those who did; 2) the story helps maintain the perfect sense of shame many of us feel about the way we ignored our Vietvets; 3) the press keeps the story in play by uncritically repeating it, as the Times and U.S. News did; and 4) because any fool with 33 cents and the gumption to repeat the myth in his letter to the editor can keep it in circulation. Most recent mentions of the spitting protester in Nexis are of this variety.


 
Yup.



> As press crimes go, the myth of the spitting protester ain't even a misdemeanor. Reporters can't be expected to fact-check every quotation. But it does teach us a journalistic lesson: Never lend somebody a sympathetic ear just because he's sympathetic.


 
the press no longer does it's job.

It never really did a very good job, anyway, but now its completely worthless.

Remember when the MYTH was that every year 50,000 children are abducted?

Now think about that for a second and you realize how absurd that number is, too.

the press is worthless.

And the spitting myth is basically just that...a myth.


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## JenT (Aug 17, 2009)

This man didn't fight in Vietnam, but I think he describes it well in this excerpt of his letter to Cindy Sheehan



> We knew each other better than most of our families did. Things were discussed among us that none of us would dare share with anyone else who had not endured what we endured. We comforted people who had been displaced by Abu Saif, and Communist Guerillas. We heard their stories of horror as they held a daughter captive by knife or gun and demanded a "voluntary" donation to their cause. We saw the devastation together that terror wrought upon the lives and souls of other human beings. Stories that chilled us to the core then, and still do today.
> 
> We felt the warmth of their hugs when we scared the boogie men away, and we felt their graciousness when we were bought into their homes and fed with a feast they had gathered from among the villagers as a whole because no one family could ever afford a gala like we witnessed many times. We slept in the only bed in the house because the heartfelt gratitude of those we liberated would allow nothing more than the best they had, even if it was the worst we ever had.
> 
> ...


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## JakeStarkey (Aug 17, 2009)

JenT said:


> JakeStarkey said:
> 
> 
> > JenT said:
> ...



I, saying this kindly but firmly,m am not part of "we".  I was getting spit at it.  'bones, it really, really happened, and it really, really happened a lot.

I am very glad that Jen T and Jane F and the others who have apologized have done so.


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## JakeStarkey (Aug 17, 2009)

BasicGreatGuy said:


> Were some troops mistreated in some way? Yes, they were. That is for those that did the mistreating to apologize for, if they have any character at all.
> 
> You are taking this personal when you shouldn't Jen. You are trying to shoulder the "sins" of society and make some kind of atonement for that. That is not your place.
> 
> I had family in nam. I have never and would never make the kind of apology to them that you have made here. Why? Because I didn't do anything wrong to them, or any other troop at home or in country.  To me, that would be arrogant and insulting to them to do so.



That is your opinion; it is in error but not immoral.


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## Ravi (Aug 17, 2009)

JakeStarkey said:


> JenT said:
> 
> 
> > JakeStarkey said:
> ...


Who spit on you and where did this happen?


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## JakeStarkey (Aug 17, 2009)

JenT said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> > _From: Drooling on VietNam Vets Jack Scaefer_
> ...



It happened to me and I saw it happen to others and I had dozens of fellow soldiers tell me that it happened to them.

Anybody who denies that this happened, happened quite a bit, is either ignorant of the history, mentally feeble, or morally malignant.  No other possible explanation exists for denials of historical events.


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## JenT (Aug 17, 2009)

In defense of those denying it, maybe it's because you weren't in California, maybe it's because you weren't born yet, maybe it's because you're so naive about how America's presence in the world keeps so many evil dictators pause to expand. Maybe you're too busy blaming America and looking to find fault with us because you lived a spoiled life compared to other countries and can't handle the guilt so you tear down the nation that has helped so many others worldwide.

I don't know. It's small consolation to know maybe America will be appreciated after we're gone.


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## Ravi (Aug 17, 2009)

You're the one that is blaming America, Jen. You're making something up. Where are those pictures?

I seriously doubt many Vets walked around in uniform and got spit on. No, scratch that, I simply do not believe it.

Now if you want to tell me that various National Guardsmen got spit on  I could believe that easily.


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## strollingbones (Aug 17, 2009)

if 1/3 rd of the people who claimed to serve in vietnam on the net were actually there ....it would have gutted the us of all the men during that period.....

the claims of being spit on....are way overstated...you must rememeber this is the 60's and 70's spitting on people was not common place anywhere.....and again....i dont see soldiers walking in shame and being spit on without action...


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## rightwinger (Aug 17, 2009)

JakeStarkey said:


> JenT said:
> 
> 
> > JakeStarkey said:
> ...



Jake

Sorry to hear you were spit on. Can you provide details? Who spit on you? Where did it happen? Were you in uniform?  How did you respond?  Why didn't you beat the crap out of them?


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## JakeStarkey (Aug 17, 2009)

strollingbones said:


> if 1/3 rd of the people who claimed to serve in vietnam on the net were actually there ....it would have gutted the us of all the men during that period.....
> 
> the claims of being spit on....are way overstated...you must rememeber this is the 60's and 70's spitting on people was not common place anywhere.....and again....i dont see soldiers walking in shame and being spit on without action...



'bones, go to the first hand sources that you know from that era, the soliders and sailors and Marines and airmen and women who served way back then, tell them what you have stated here, and they will shake their collective head and say, "Well, well, you are a little hippy, aren't you?"

Jen and you others who were there and who survived an era that the little ones born after 1970s have literally no conception about, we all all know and the rest who don't want to believe simply don't count.


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## rightwinger (Aug 17, 2009)

JakeStarkey said:


> strollingbones said:
> 
> 
> > if 1/3 rd of the people who claimed to serve in vietnam on the net were actually there ....it would have gutted the us of all the men during that period.....
> ...



Jake
Could you enlighten us with your experience of having people spit on you?  What was your service in Viet Nam? When and where were you spat at? Why did you just take it?

Also, I am having a problem finding a link from the 60's and early 70s that report soldiers being spat at. I see alot of stuff from ten years after from soldiers who say it happened but nothing during that era. I would appreciate any info you could provide


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## JakeStarkey (Aug 17, 2009)

Those of you who have no personal memories of those years and that era cannot envison, in my opinion, how divided Americans were as a country.  As  the fury of the town hall meetings compare to those who were alive as teenagers and adults and their feelings pro and con about the war, so is a camp fire to a raging forest fire.  None of you who did not experience that era have any concept of what Americans did to each other.

rightwinger, the details of my personal expeerince will remain private to me, not wishing to cast the intimate events of that incident as pearls before swine.


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## rightwinger (Aug 17, 2009)

Jake
The Viet Nam vets I knew would have beat the shit out of anyone who dared spit on them. What was your reaction?


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## JakeStarkey (Aug 17, 2009)

rightwinger said:


> Jake
> The Viet Nam vets I knew would have beat the shit out of anyone who dared spit on them. What was your reaction?



My personal incident is closed to you other than what I have shared.


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## rightwinger (Aug 17, 2009)

JakeStarkey said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> > Jake
> ...



OK

So I'll take that as a "Didn't Happen"
My memories of that time was that Viet Vets were taken back into their community and were well received. We had parties welcoming them back and they went back to college or rejoined the workforce. I don't remember a single vet from that timeperiod claiming that hippies spat at them.
Viet Nam Vets were respected. Hippies were not. It was the Hippies who were ridiculed and spat at. A store owner or bar tender would welcome a vet while refusing service to a long haired, dirty hippie.  
Viet Nam vets never got a parade to honor their service. Mostly, they were just regular boys who slipped back into society, got married and raised kids.
That image has been revised to make the Viet Nam Vet a bitter, drug addicted, suicidal outcast who was defiled, spit at  and ostracised by society. 
Like I said........"Didn't Happen"


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## JakeStarkey (Aug 17, 2009)

I knew you were trolling, right winger, from your first post, and that's OK.  Believe as you wish.  And I am glad the vets were treated that way in your experience if they were.  But, podjo, that certainly wasn't the only experience or the majority experience.  And, yes, a lot of hippies were treated as you described, particularly in the old South.  That was the point of the film, "Easy Rider".  But if you believe your experience was the only one or the majority one, well, Jesus bless you, that's OK.

But, just a thought here, for you and SB and other doubters -- go to the soup kitchen this Saturday and talk to the homeless.  Find the vets.  Ask them.


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## OLJinhoist (Aug 17, 2009)

It happened and all your bullshitting will not change it. To those of us that it happened to we could give a shit less what doubters think .
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
When you encounter a service person in public and wish to thank them for their service, Place your right hand across heart palm towards heart,now extend elbow to bring forearm to the horizontal position palm up. 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jen I thank you, but those who did this owe the apology.


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## rightwinger (Aug 17, 2009)

JakeStarkey said:


> I knew you were trolling, right winger, from your first post, and that's OK.  Believe as you wish.  And I am glad the vets were treated that way in your experience if they were.  But, podjo, that certainly wasn't the only experience or the majority experience.  And, yes, a lot of hippies were treated as you described, particularly in the old South.  That was the point of the film, "Easy Rider".  But if you believe your experience was the only one or the majority one, well, Jesus bless you, that's OK.
> 
> But, just a thought here, for you and SB and other doubters -- *go to the soup kitchen this Saturday and talk to the homeless.  Find the vets.  Ask them.[/*QUOTE]
> 
> ...


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## JenT (Aug 17, 2009)

Ravi, rightwinger, strollingbones, I am so embarrassed for you. I can't believe you don't comprehend how disgusting your posts are.

Jake, as I read this thread, thank you SO MUCH for not playing into their garbage. You guys don't deserve an answer from one of our military, you don't deserve anything. Wait, I take that back, you should have been spanked a lot harder when you were young, your lack of appreciation for the sacrifices that were made for you has really lowered my opinion of libs below where it already was. I suspect your whole angle is you want to continue to demonize our military today so you can get your completely naive and idiotic anti-war chants to continue. You think the world would be all sweet if Obama and our nation would just compromise our freedom away? You have no clue about the reality of people and greed and the mindset that actually gets a hard on out of watching people be tortured and suffer. 

Our guys go over there, some of them have been captured, some of them have been beheaded, and for what? So you can sit around and claim you know something that you clearly don't.

You probably think you could reason with the likes of Arafat. Did you know that he used to twist the heads off of kittens in front of kindergarten classes just to toughen up the kids? That's the kind of people that are out there in the world, that's the kind of twisted perverted, too gross to be reported evils out there that our bravest are out battling while we sit in our comfortable lazychairs watching "American Idol" while you criticize those who fought for your freedom. You sicken me. 

I hope no one offers you any proof at all. You don't deserve it. You've thrown your own kind of mud just now, and I"m ashamed of you. I'm ashamed to call you an American.


----------



## del (Aug 17, 2009)

JenT said:


> Ravi, rightwinger, strollingbones, I am so embarrassed for you. I can't believe you don't comprehend how disgusting your posts are.
> 
> Jake, as I read this thread, thank you SO MUCH for not playing into their garbage. You guys don't deserve an answer from one of our military, you don't deserve anything. Wait, I take that back, you should have been spanked a lot harder when you were young, your lack of appreciation for the sacrifices that were made for you has really lowered my opinion of libs below where it already was. I suspect your whole angle is you want to continue to demonize our military today so you can get your completely naive and idiotic anti-war chants to continue. You think the world would be all sweet if Obama and our nation would just compromise our freedom away? You have no clue about the reality of people and greed and the mindset that actually gets a hard on out of watching people be tortured and suffer.
> 
> ...



i'm ashamed to call you human, so i guess it all evens out.


----------



## JakeStarkey (Aug 17, 2009)

JenT, if they are linking a false revision of history so they can smash on Bush and the neo-cons, they are immoral.  The neo-cons and Bush have done plentry wrong without falsifying history.  Rightwinger would have been born a little more than 50 years ago if I am right, and if so, then he is lying right through his teeth.

The others are younger brats who don't know their manners or American history, for that matter.  What they are doing is reminding me of how the Soviets rewrote history.  I know our whacko far right wingers are tying to do that and failing. thank  heavens.  Shame on anyone who cannot be fair and objective to the dead and living of the past.

Gays and gals from the Vietnam period who served, I salute you.  Those of the left who acted poorly toward the service members of that time, you are flatly not the caliber of JenT or JaneF.  So folks like 'sbones and the other stones simply don't count on this topic.


----------



## Diuretic (Aug 17, 2009)

So, apart from the spitting on one hand and the fawning adulation on the other, how were Vietnam vets treated by their government when they returned?  I would like to think they were treated well and not subjected to the sort of shite the Brits are giving their military personnel at the moment.


----------



## Sunni Man (Aug 17, 2009)

I was drafted for the Vietnam War on 04/01/70

Another kid, a high school friend, was also inducted into the Army that day from our town.

The last time I ever saw him was basic training.

I later found out that Clark S. had stepped on a mine.

His name is on the wall.

I have never had the guts to go visit the "Wall".

I struggled with survivers guilt for 20+ years.


After fullfilling my 2 years of service. 

I got out and started building a life and family. 

Went to collage on the G.I. Bill

I rarely told anyone I was involved it that conflict. 

I was embarrassed to have been a part of that senseless war.


Now 30 years later America has made the exact same mistakes in Iraq/Afghanistain as we did in Vietnam.

Really makes me sick


----------



## L.K.Eder (Aug 17, 2009)

JenT said:


> Ravi, rightwinger, strollingbones, I am so embarrassed for you. I can't believe you don't comprehend how disgusting your posts are.
> 
> Jake, as I read this thread, thank you SO MUCH for not playing into their garbage. You guys don't deserve an answer from one of our military, you don't deserve anything. Wait, I take that back, you should have been spanked a lot harder when you were young, your lack of appreciation for the sacrifices that were made for you has really lowered my opinion of libs below where it already was. I suspect your whole angle is you want to continue to demonize our military today so you can get your completely naive and idiotic anti-war chants to continue. You think the world would be all sweet if Obama and our nation would just compromise our freedom away? You have no clue about the reality of people and greed and the mindset that actually gets a hard on out of watching people be tortured and suffer.
> 
> ...



you sicken me. hiding behind the military throwing mud in all directions.


----------



## JenT (Aug 17, 2009)

L.K.Eder said:


> JenT said:
> 
> 
> > Ravi, rightwinger, strollingbones, I am so embarrassed for you. I can't believe you don't comprehend how disgusting your posts are.
> ...



"hiding" behind the military? I'm not hiding, never have.

(heh, 'cept for not posting my address and phone number...)


----------



## JakeStarkey (Aug 17, 2009)

JenT and I disagree often on politics but not on the memories of what seared the generations of our grandparents (the WWII generation), our parents, and ours.  And I honor her honesty, staring the truth straight in the face and telling it like it was.  If any can't handle it, get out of the way.

The GI Bill was wonderful in empowering and growing the middle class, just like it had with the unions from 1944 on for the WWII generation.  The purchasing power of the consuming middle class drives this economy; two out of every three dollars comes from us, not the corporatists (opposed to the capitalist who actually make something or provide a worthy service).  Any who think social engineering can't work, better look at the impact of the GI bill and Truman's beginning integration of the Armed Forces.  The price for Vietnam was emotionally awful for three generations, and now we get to listen to folks who don't know a darn thing about it or outright lying about it.

I tell you what, everybody.  Go to soup kitchen on Saturday or Sunday.  It will sadden you and it will make you feel awfully good about what you have in your life right now.  Talk to the homeless veterans before you go to your warm home, dry bed, and indoor plumbing.  It may change your lives.


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## Ravi (Aug 17, 2009)

How sad you people are using the military to advance some stupid urban myth.

Jen, you claimed you saw many pictures of Vets being spit on but you produce none.

Jake, you claim you were spit often but can't come up with one example.

I rarely agree with Del, but I have no choice here.



> i'm ashamed to call you human, so i guess it all evens out.


----------



## Dis (Aug 17, 2009)

Ravi said:


> How sad you people are using the military to advance some stupid urban myth.
> 
> Jen, you claimed you saw many pictures of Vets being spit on but you produce none.
> 
> ...



Pfft.  Agreeing with Del isn't nearly as earth-shattering, and ego-blowing as having to admit when you agree with me.


----------



## JakeStarkey (Aug 17, 2009)

Get it straight -- I said it happened once to me, and dozens of my peers told me it happened to them.

That anybody else here doesn't think it happened simply doesn't matter.  Such thinking is like the child whining and pouting at home over something.  No one gives any real emotion to what the child or the naysayers here think.  The child is wrong.  The naysayers are wrong.  The history of that the spitting on Vietnam veterans often happened is secure forever.


----------



## JenT (Aug 17, 2009)

Obviously my biker friends are right. Hard to believe. That's all. Guess that's what a message board is for, to see other people's opinions and express our own. 

I'd say that's happened in this thread.


----------



## Ravi (Aug 17, 2009)

Backtrack all you want.


> I was getting spit at it.  'bones, it really, really happened, and it really, really happened a lot.



Who spit at you and where did this happen?


----------



## Valerie (Aug 17, 2009)

Ravi said:


> Backtrack all you want.
> 
> 
> > I was getting spit at it.  'bones, it really, really happened, and it really, really happened a lot.
> ...



I agree with your take on this.  JenT is being a sanctimonious jent.  

Some people actually spitting, or even many people reportedly spitting, and more like many people using the word spitting figuratively, does not equal the collective spitting of Americans.


----------



## Ravi (Aug 17, 2009)

Valerie said:


> Ravi said:
> 
> 
> > Backtrack all you want.
> ...


The thing is, Val, is that there are no news reports during the Vietnam war that mentioned spitting on Vets. No arrest reports, either.

Not to mention that unless a Vet was in uniform, who the hell would know they were a Vet...and someone else made the point that Vets wouldn't slink away in shame at being spit on. To me, the entire legend strives to make Vets look like a bunch of cowards and that is just unfair and untrue.


----------



## Valerie (Aug 17, 2009)

Ravi said:


> Valerie said:
> 
> 
> > Ravi said:
> ...




Not only that but the jent IS hiding behind the military with her sanctimonious routine ironically spitting on "the left" and "liberals" (such as yourself, LOL) who BTW have never spit on a vet!


----------



## Ravi (Aug 17, 2009)

Valerie said:


> Ravi said:
> 
> 
> > Valerie said:
> ...


My dad is a Vet...nothing at all would compel me to spit on one. Ever.


----------



## OLJinhoist (Aug 17, 2009)

JenT said:


> Obviously my biker friends are right. Hard to believe. That's all. Guess that's what a message board is for, to see other people's opinions and express our own.
> 
> I'd say that's happened in this thread.


__________________________________________________________________________
Jen again I thank you but don't blow a gasket after a long ago strategie set in stone by pantywaiste controllers is trotted out anew. When you ignore them they get almost as violent as a Muslims. Again it was a very bad time in some of our lives. Please drop it now. Thanks___Dan


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## OLJinhoist (Aug 17, 2009)

rightwinger said:


> Jake
> The Viet Nam vets I knew would have beat the shit out of anyone who dared spit on them. What was your reaction?[/QUOTE
> _________________________________________________________________________
> From my fucking stetcher you moron? Attack the weak and defansless aS you attempt to do to a man who already told you back off . BACK OFF ASSHOLE. He doesnt feel it neccesary to open old wounds for your morbid interst.
> Piss off Puke


----------



## BasicGreatGuy (Aug 17, 2009)

Ravi said:


> Backtrack all you want.
> 
> 
> > I was getting spit at it.  'bones, it really, really happened, and it really, really happened a lot.
> ...



Just because you didn't see it happen, read about it in the newspaper, or hear about it from a veteran, that doesn't mean it didn't happen to a veteran.  You are using a logical fallacy to try and prove you are right. 

Using your burden of proof, the members here should disregard anything you say on this board, until and unless it can be factually verified by the media. And if not, you will have to undergo a polygraph test from an approved FBI agent. If you could scan the results of the test into the computer, as well as providing the name and phone number of the agent so that we could verify your story, that would be appreciated. 

Do you see how ridiculous you and some others in this thread are being? Seriously.


----------



## Ravi (Aug 18, 2009)

OLJinhoist said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> > Jake
> ...


----------



## strollingbones (Aug 18, 2009)

o now we got people claiming they spit on the wounded....o hell no....you do realize wounded are not left alone...this is just sillie...i was spit on while wounded...they let the left run around and spit on wounded vets....do you even realize how stupid you sound?


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## Ravi (Aug 18, 2009)

strollingbones said:


> o now we got people claiming they spit on the wounded....o hell no....you do realize wounded are not left alone...this is just sillie...i was spit on while wounded...they let the left run around and spit on wounded vets....do you even realize how stupid you sound?


At the military hospital no less!


----------



## strollingbones (Aug 18, 2009)

jent seems to admit she spit on someone...i doubt that too....but you know ....everyone loves a reformed sinner and it does seems she will do and say anything for attention.....

so why is jent dragging the whole of society into this?  cause she is a fucking little whiney bitch who spit on vets and is too ashamed to say she is sorry for just herself...too ashamed to admit that she was the weirdo who did this shit while others were welcoming vets home...i doubt seriously she did anything at anytime....she would piss on herself before she could get the nerve up to spit on anyone.


----------



## strollingbones (Aug 18, 2009)

o hell no..at a military hospital....

that is just a fucking joke....womack had what we called MP's ....MP's who didnt mind beating the hell out of anyone who they were told to beat the hell out of....and i assure you...they did....e9's would have had a field day with anyone spitting on a patient...then turned them over to the MP's.


----------



## OLJinhoist (Aug 18, 2009)

Ravi said:


> strollingbones said:
> 
> 
> > o now we got people claiming they spit on the wounded....o hell no....you do realize wounded are not left alone...this is just sillie...i was spit on while wounded...they let the left run around and spit on wounded vets....do you even realize how stupid you sound?
> ...


------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
3 presidents shot in 50yrs. they were protected too.
AND IF ANY HERE THINK IM A LIAR I SAY BILL CLINTON AND MONICA TO YOU<OH AND BY THE WAY FUCK YOU PUKE.
PS enough of you morons.


----------



## Ravi (Aug 18, 2009)

OLJinhoist said:


> Ravi said:
> 
> 
> > strollingbones said:
> ...


You're a liar.


----------



## JakeStarkey (Aug 18, 2009)

The incidents happened.  I noted some of the comments to my friends at the barbershop this morning, and they stared at with me Homer Simpson stares (you know, the big round empty eyes), then they started laughing.  Their general conclusion was that 'sbones and the others are little whiny far lefty loonies who hate America or little whiny far right radicals who can't believe anything wrong ever happens in America.

Remember that the deniers have no ethical or factual position in this discussion. and that there numbers are very, very small.  Their false beliefs will die with them.

ps: They liked the _strolling bones _moniker but thought her nose was too big.


----------



## editec (Aug 18, 2009)

JakeStarkey said:


> Get it straight -- I said it happened once to me, and dozens of my peers told me it happened to them.
> 
> That anybody else here doesn't think it happened simply doesn't matter. Such thinking is like the child whining and pouting at home over something. No one gives any real emotion to what the child or the naysayers here think. The child is wrong. The naysayers are wrong. The history of that the spitting on Vietnam veterans often happened is secure forever.


 
This Viet Nam era veteran thinks you full of shit, lad.


----------



## editec (Aug 18, 2009)

strollingbones said:


> o now we got people claiming they spit on the wounded....o hell no....you do realize wounded are not left alone...this is just sillie...i was spit on while wounded...they let the left run around and spit on wounded vets....do you even realize how stupid you sound?


 
No, they don't.

People cling to these myths because they take comfort in them.

The more bold liars and propagandist internet nitwits even go so far as to say that this myth happened to them.

Internet veterans.


----------



## JakeStarkey (Aug 18, 2009)

editec said:


> JakeStarkey said:
> 
> 
> > Get it straight -- I said it happened once to me, and dozens of my peers told me it happened to them.
> ...



You are entitled to think what you want, but the evidence is not with you.  So you can stand there with big eyes with sbones holding hands and both whine, but they does not change the world.


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## JenT (Aug 18, 2009)

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tq62ggQKYJY]YouTube - Matt Redman - The Heart of Worship[/ame]


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## Ravi (Aug 18, 2009)

JakeStarkey said:


> editec said:
> 
> 
> > JakeStarkey said:
> ...


The evidence? What evidence? What we have on this thread is some loon that claims he was spit on while on a stretcher, another loon that claims she's seen pictures of Vets being spit on yet for some reason can't produce any of them...and you, who is afraid to even describe your experience.


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## JenT (Aug 18, 2009)

baiting

God be with you Ravi


----------



## JakeStarkey (Aug 18, 2009)

JenT said:


> baiting
> 
> God be with you Ravi



That's the good way, JenT.  Either these deniers are mentally deranged, ignorant of the facts and won't look them up, or simply malignant.  Not a thing to do with them except let them pout and whine.


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## rightwinger (Aug 18, 2009)

JakeStarkey said:


> The incidents happened.  I noted some of the comments to my friends at the barbershop this morning, and they stared at with me Homer Simpson stares (you know, the big round empty eyes), then they started laughing.  Their general conclusion was that 'sbones and the others are little whiny far lefty loonies who hate America or little whiny far right radicals who can't believe anything wrong ever happens in America.
> 
> Remember that the deniers have no ethical or factual position in this discussion. and that there numbers are very, very small.  Their false beliefs will die with them.
> 
> ps: They liked the _strolling bones _moniker but thought her nose was too big.



Jake,
Frankly, I don't believe you. Your story gets more bizarre the more you post. You hit on all the myths. The spitting on vets as they came home, the homeless shelters still jammed with Viet Nam vets 35 years after the war ended, now spitting on soldiers in a stretcher. I don't know who is more outlandish, you or Jen T.
I lived during that time. I had friends and neighbors who went to Viet Nam. The boys came home, they were not all bitter emotional wrecks. These boys who came home were for the most part treated well. They went back to school, got jobs, raised families just like anyone else.
Vets were treated better than hippies and war protesters in the late 60s and 70s. The communities accepted the vets back, while hippies were despised. I personally saw hippies asked to leave establishments because people did not want to be around them. 
The ones who treated Viet Nam vets the worst were the WWII vets. WWII vets did not think the kids measured up, they didn't "win" their war, they grew their hair long, had facial hair and were considered to be druggies. 
If Viet Nam vets never got a parade, blame the WWII vets. These are the guys who were now mayors and community leaders. It was their job to arrange recognition for the returning boys....they never did it.


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## strollingbones (Aug 18, 2009)

JenT said:


> baiting
> 
> God be with you Ravi



you are hardly one to accuse anyone else of "baiting" since that is all most of your threads are....


----------



## JakeStarkey (Aug 18, 2009)

rightwinger, you are goofy.  My story has never changed, but your agenda keeps growing and expanding as does a dog's puddle on the ground, always smelling poorly and drawing the looks of others toward an ill-mannered dog.

Quit wagging your tail, cover your mess, and go take care of some homeless vets at the shelter this weekend.  Some of the guys at the 'shop were wondering if some of you were just wannabees.  That may be you.  

Anyway, if you continue to stand there, stare and whine and puddle all you want, none of that changes the history.


----------



## Ravi (Aug 18, 2009)

God doesn't like lying, Jen.


----------



## rightwinger (Aug 18, 2009)

JakeStarkey said:


> rightwinger, you are goofy.  My story has never changed, but your agenda keeps growing and expanding as does a dog's puddle on the ground, always smelling poorly and drawing the looks of others toward an ill-mannered dog.
> 
> Quit wagging your tail, cover your mess, and go take care of some homeless vets at the shelter this weekend.  Some of the guys at the 'shop were wondering if some of you were just wannabees.  That may be you.
> 
> Anyway, if you continue to stand there, stare and whine and puddle all you want, none of that changes the history.



A typical baseless response from a moron. Provide me proof that Vets were spat at as they returned. Refute anything I said. You could not even provide details of your own alleged "incident"


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## JenT (Aug 18, 2009)

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HFgD0OqewM8]YouTube - Angels - Ashton, Becker, Dente[/ame]


----------



## JenT (Aug 18, 2009)

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dNgLwNWHIdA&feature=related]YouTube - A Heart-felt Tribute to American Soldiers: Tim McGraw's "If You're Reading This"[/ame]


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## rightwinger (Aug 18, 2009)

http://www.vvaw.org/veteran/article/?id=215

Debunking A Myth
By John Zutz (Reviewer)
[Printer-Friendly Version]

The Spitting Image: Myth, Memory, and the Legacy of Vietnam, by Jerry Lembcke (New York University Press, 1998)

Many Vietnam veterans repeat a common litany: anti-war protesters spit upon them. This book attempts to debunk what Lembcke concludes has become a modern urban myth.

How does one attempt to prove a negative - that something didn't happen? This author does it by examining the positive side and failing to find any conclusive proof that it occurred. Along the way he finds many indications that it is indeed a myth.

His research examined newspapers from New York and San Francisco, as well as police reports detailing the interaction between protesters and veterans. No spitting incidents were reported, and the observers noticed that over time the veterans assumed leadership positions among the protesters. *Lembcke did find newspaper reports of spitting during demonstrations in the late 1960s, but they referred to hawks spitting on anti-war protesters.*

Reinforcing his myth hypothesis, Lembcke cites a *Harris poll reported to Congress in 1972 that indicates 93% of returning veterans found their homecoming friendly, while only 3% found it unfriendly*. The poll also reported that over 75% of returning vets were opposed to the war.

*The first documented reports of being spit upon don't begin to appear until the early 1980s*. According to the author, who is currently an associate professor of sociology,* the time delay is a strong indication that the story is a myth*. So where did the myth come from?

First, remember that we lost the war. There are historical examples of mistreatment myths in which the abusers are said to be traitors to the national cause. In post-WWI Germany, the Fascists exploited similar rumors to arouse popular anger toward Jews, homosexuals, and women. After France's defeat in Indochina, the contrast and conflict of the male warrior image with the more feminine factors of society were blamed for the defeat

*please post a link for this in compliance w/ board rules. thanks
del.*


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## strollingbones (Aug 18, 2009)

i love the replying with you tube videos....seems jent has ran out of bullshit and hot air...


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## JakeStarkey (Aug 18, 2009)

rightwinger said:


> JakeStarkey said:
> 
> 
> > rightwinger, you are goofy.  My story has never changed, but your agenda keeps growing and expanding as does a dog's puddle on the ground, always smelling poorly and drawing the looks of others toward an ill-mannered dog.
> ...



You have been told by several here the truth of the matter, and of their own involvment in the matter.  Plenty of solid evidence exists in the history.  Obviously you have done no study.


----------



## JakeStarkey (Aug 18, 2009)

strollingbones said:


> i love the replying with you tube videos....seems jent has ran out of bullshit and hot air...



But she has a much cuter nose.


----------



## strollingbones (Aug 18, 2009)

lol true that.....


----------



## Ralph (Aug 18, 2009)

There are many myths generated about this conflict....the most egregious rumor was that involving the US Military and how it LOST THE CONFLICT.  Do you actually know how many engagements the US Military lost while engaged in this action?   Zip, none, zero.....The US won every battle engaged, what was lacking was the management to take advantage of these sacrifices that cost us so dearly, over 50 thousand US life's lost and following the abandonment of our so called Allies.......over 1 million lives where lost to the communist of that region because of the inability of the politicians of this nation to properly manage the responsibilities they had self engaged.   

Is it no wonder the world lost respect for the United States?   Our word means nothing, our promises are empty air.  The native Americans had these peoples judged correctly from the start........they will promise you anything to gain what they want.   And now we have the greatest WINDBAG in history attempting to sell us another bill of goods, he will do anything, say anything to have his name go down in history as the "ONE" that brought socialized medicine to the United States, he is simply a 'glory hound'.


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## rightwinger (Aug 18, 2009)

Reinforcing his myth hypothesis, Lembcke cites a Harris poll reported to Congress in 1972 that indicates 93% of returning veterans found their homecoming friendly, while only 3% found it unfriendly. The poll also reported that over 75% of returning vets were opposed to the war.


----------



## rightwinger (Aug 18, 2009)

http://www.vvaw.org/veteran/article/?id=215

In 1998 sociologist and Vietnam veteran Jerry Lembcke published "The Spitting Image: Myth, Media and the Legacy of Viet Nam." *He recounts a study of 495 news stories on returning veterans published from 1965 to 1971. That study shows only a handful (32) of instances were presented as in any way antagonistic to the soldiers.* There were no instances of spitting on soldiers; *what spitting was reported was done by citizens expressing displeasure with protesters.*

*Opinion polls of the time show no animosity between soldiers and opponents of the war. Only 3 percent of returning soldiers recounted any unfriendly experiences upon their return.*

There is also a common-sense method for debunking this urban legend. One frequent test is the story's plausibility: how likely is it that the incident could have happened as described?* Do we really believe that a "dirty hippie" would spit upon a fit and trained soldier?* If such a confrontation had occurred, would that combat-hardened soldier have just ignored the insult? Would there not be pictures, arrest reports, a trial record or a coroner's report after such an event? Years of research have produced no such records


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## editec (Aug 18, 2009)

rightwinger said:


> Vietnam Veterans Against the War: THE VETERAN: Debunking A Myth
> 
> In 1998 sociologist and Vietnam veteran Jerry Lembcke published "The Spitting Image: Myth, Media and the Legacy of Viet Nam." *He recounts a study of 495 news stories on returning veterans published from 1965 to 1971. That study shows only a handful (32) of instances were presented as in any way antagonistic to the soldiers.* There were no instances of spitting on soldiers; *what spitting was reported was done by citizens expressing displeasure with protesters.*
> 
> ...


 
There you go, RWer.

Stomping on two of this nations most cherished myths.

the first being the "dirty hippie" myth.

the second being all those spitting incidents where men in uniform endured being spit on by dirty hippies.

Anybody who understands anything about the human nature of mature males  in uniform can see though such specious nonsense. 

But as most of the armchair veterans on this board are completely and utterly fuill of shit, they insult Viet Nam veterans, first by pretending that they are those vets, and then by insinuating that we were passive pussies who would have tolerated such an insult.

It's the kind of lie that only a truly clueless right wing fucking punk could believe.


----------



## JakeStarkey (Aug 18, 2009)

OK, here is some background on Dr. Lemcke.  Dr. Robert Turner wrote on the of the first fine books on Vietnamese communism and is a co-founder at the University of Virginia School of Law of the Center for National Security law.  He and his brothers were vets and went through a scene similar to those that JenT and I described.

And then the interviewer of Turner below asks about Lemcke, who turns out is a leftist radical, which in turn outs rightwinger as a leftwing plant.  Here we go:

_TURNER: And a lot of people had that experience coming back. You know, people talk about - I saw one story in the press that nobody ever got spit on and so forth, but I can remember chasing one person down the hall in the airport in Los Angeles when I went down - I was out of the service, but my Marine Corps brother who had also done two tours in Vietnam came to meet me in his uniform, and a hippy type, whatever you want to call him, started, you know, calling him names, knowing that if he had responded he would get court-martialed, and - but I wasn't in the service and so I told the guy, I said, "You know, he can't do anything, but nothing keeps me from kicking your butt." I didn't want to hurt him. I just wanted to chase him down the hall, and I guess I had about 100 pounds on him, so he decided he'd better beat feet. But, you know, there was a lot of abuse like that, and - _
_SWETT: Dr. Turner, I actually looked into that a little bit. It seems that the source of the claim that the spitting incidents were urban legend is a guy named Jerry Lemke, who wrote an essay later expanded into a book called, "Spitting Image." He's a sociologist and, fascinatingly enough, a former member of the VVAW.   

TURNER: Yeah.

SWETT: He also appeared at a conference that was intended to celebrate, I think, one of the anniversaries of the Communist Manifesto and so forth. 

So my conclusion was perhaps he wasn't looking too hard for spitting _incidents[/I].

So, rightwinger, you are a commie?  You support the folks that were shootin' at our soldiers and airmen and marines and sailors?  That is so wrong.  And that makes 'sbones your Red Rosa.

Loozers.  All can read further for themselves at To Set the Record Straight - Interview with Dr. Robert Turner, February 14, 2005 and do some research on JL.  Rightwing, you are a loozer.


----------



## editec (Aug 18, 2009)

JakeStarkey said:


> OK, here is some background on Dr. Lemcke. Dr. Robert Turner wrote on the of the first fine books on Vietnamese communism and is a co-founder at the University of Virginia School of Law of the Center for National Security law. He and his brothers were vets and went through a scene similar to those that JenT and I described.
> 
> And then the interviewer of Turner below asks about Lemcke, who turns out is a leftist radical, which in turn outs rightwinger as a leftwing plant. Here we go:
> 
> ...


 
Reads like bullshit to me.

Specifically it reads like the sort of bullshit that somebody who never served might imagine is real, too

This for example, is utter and complete bullshit



> _knowing that if he had responded he would get court-martialed,_




He would have , eh?

Not fucking likely.

See?

More speciaous nonsense from people PRETENDING  to know what it is to be in uniform.

I get truly sick of you internet veteran heros, I truly do.

You honestly think that you can fake being veterans based on things you think you know about being in uniform you learned in the movies, don't you?

Fucking chickenhawking cowards.


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## Ravi (Aug 18, 2009)

Even that unbelievable story had no example of spitting.


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## del (Aug 18, 2009)

Ravi said:


> Even that unbelievable story had no example of spitting.



actually, the worst treatment i ever saw of a returning vet was when one that was standing next to me, in uniform, was beaten by the cambridge police in harvard sq. 

and i do mean beaten. never saw anyone spit at one, although i did hear the babykiller epithet thrown more than once. 

just goes to show, no matter where you go on the planet, you're likely never more than a couple of yards from a complete asshole.

The Harvard Crimson :: News :: Rioting Devastates Harvard Square; Windows Smashed, Scores Injured


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## Ravi (Aug 18, 2009)

del said:


> Ravi said:
> 
> 
> > Even that unbelievable story had no example of spitting.
> ...


Why did they beat him?

I can easily believe that the police and the National Guard were often spat at...spit at?


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## noose4 (Aug 18, 2009)

JenT said:


> As our nation cheers and applauds the homecoming of our troops these days, I'd like to say out loud what I know is felt by many Americans...
> 
> We are so very sorry, Vietnam Vets.
> 
> ...



the vietnam vets got a raw deal but i was wondering do you have any copies of those pictures you saw of vietnam vets getting spit upon? 
if you are looking for a place to make a donation there are plenty of great veterans charities.


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## del (Aug 18, 2009)

Ravi said:


> del said:
> 
> 
> > Ravi said:
> ...



i think he was basically in the wrong place at the wrong time and just got caught up in it. the cambridge TPF was trying to disperse an antiwar demonstration. i never talked to the guy, i just saw him go down amongst a bunch of cops with batons and helmets. he was in full uniform with medals, like he'd just come from some kind of official affair. 

those TPF guys didn't care who or what they were beating, as long as they were beating someone. scary shit.


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## noose4 (Aug 18, 2009)

strollingbones said:


> By early April, stories were circulating in several US cities about uniformed military personnel being spat on or otherwise mistreated. In Asheville, North Carolina, two Marines were rumored to have been spat upon, while in Spokane, Washington, a threat to "spit on the troops when they return from Iraq" was reportedly issued. In Burlington, Vermont, a leader of the state National Guard told local television, "We've had some spitting incidents," and then claimed one of his Guardswomen had been stoned by anti-war teenagers.
> 
> Upon further investigation, none of the stories panned out  the Spokane "threat" stemmed from the misreading of a letter in the local paper promising that opponents of the war would not spit on returning soldiers  and yet, in each case the rumors were used to stoke pro-war rallies.
> 
> Vietnam Veterans Against the War: THE VETERAN: Spitting on the Troops: Old Myth, New Rumors



i wasnt in vietnam i turned 18 in 1983 and joined up then and i can only say if somebody had spit upon me the next thing they would be doing would be spitting out their teeth, i really cant see some strung out filthy hippy spitting on some in shape vietnam combat vet, it doesnt seem like a healthy choice.


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## Ravi (Aug 18, 2009)

del said:


> Ravi said:
> 
> 
> > del said:
> ...


I bet. Pretty strange that they'd beat someone in uniform though. But cops tend to overreact.


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## JakeStarkey (Aug 18, 2009)

editec said:


> JakeStarkey said:
> 
> 
> > OK, here is some background on Dr. Lemcke. Dr. Robert Turner wrote on the of the first fine books on Vietnamese communism and is a co-founder at the University of Virginia School of Law of the Center for National Security law. He and his brothers were vets and went through a scene similar to those that JenT and I described.
> ...


*
[Jake quietly nodding his head, watching the lefties and the radicals struggle in their own nets.  He sips his coffee, nods again, and goes back to making his next million.]*


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## JenT (Aug 18, 2009)

Just two days ago...how odd a whole town remembers and apologizes

[edited] 

Fort Campbell welcomes home Vietnam vets
By KRISTIN M. HALL, AP
Sun Aug 16, 8:08 PM EDT 

FORT CAMPBELL, Ky. &#8212; Tears filled the eyes of some Vietnam veterans who were warmly greeted with cheers from their family and friends Sunday in an re-enactment of their original return from the war, when they were often met with angry demonstrators and harsh headlines.

The ceremony was a first for the 101st Airborne Division and the Army, said Maj. Patrick Seiber, an Army spokesman based at Fort Campbell in Kentucky.

"Our hope is that other units and other posts will follow our lead in having this type of ceremony," he said.

Mickey Leighton, a 72-year-old Army veteran from Naples, Fla., said listening to the applause and praise from the community was very emotional.

Leighton, who started his military career at Fort Campbell in 1956, served two tours in Vietnam including the Tet Offensive. He returned in 1972 in the midst of angry anti-war protests that often placed blame on the individual soldiers.

"We were treated very shabbily," he said. "In some cases they would throw eggs at us, they would throw empty beer bottles at us and they would call us baby-killers."

He said many soldiers would immediately change clothes because they didn't want to wear their uniforms in public in the late 1960s and early '70s while traveling home after returning from war.

"Never in the history of the military have I known of any division or any military installation providing a specific welcome home for Vietnam veterans," Leighton said. "This is very touching."

In contrast, Fort Campbell soldiers returning from Iraq and Afghanistan are welcomed back with a ceremony after every deployment, with many completing three or four tours since the wars began.

Army leaders and the community around Fort Campbell collaborated for the Vietnam ceremony, Seiber said. The 101st Airborne Division Association, a group for former soldiers from the division, helped to organize and get the word out.

"I can't think of a better community to do this in than the Fort Campbell community," Seiber said.

Fort Campbell welcomes home Vietnam vets | Comcast.net


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## Ravi (Aug 18, 2009)

When are you going to show us the pictures, Jen?


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## JenT (Aug 18, 2009)

Ravi, even if I had one today I would tear it up, sure wouldn't post it, something that disgraceful should be burned


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## del (Aug 18, 2009)

JenT said:


> Ravi, even if I had one today I would tear it up, sure wouldn't post it, something that disgraceful should be burned



pathetically weak


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## JakeStarkey (Aug 18, 2009)

del said:


> JenT said:
> 
> 
> > Ravi, even if I had one today I would tear it up, sure wouldn't post it, something that disgraceful should be burned
> ...



I agree, Del.  Ravi's losing his mind.


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## JenT (Aug 18, 2009)

JakeStarkey said:


> del said:
> 
> 
> > JenT said:
> ...



Really? I thought Del meant his own knees were knocking again

Try some vitamins Del, and a good steak once in a while should help


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## del (Aug 18, 2009)

JenT said:


> JakeStarkey said:
> 
> 
> > del said:
> ...



pathetically weak and stupid.

you guys make a great team.


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## JenT (Aug 18, 2009)

del said:


> JenT said:
> 
> 
> > JakeStarkey said:
> ...



now now Del, nobody on my team said you were stupid


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## JakeStarkey (Aug 18, 2009)

Del, be nice.  Not hard to do.


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## JenT (Aug 18, 2009)

you might learn from this man though






fresh air and hard work does wonders


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## del (Aug 18, 2009)

JenT said:


> del said:
> 
> 
> > JenT said:
> ...



and your alleged point would be what, fruitcake?


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## Ravi (Aug 18, 2009)

JakeStarkey said:


> Del, be nice.  Not hard to do.


You're a liar and a fraud. JenT, I believe, is merely an idiot.


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## JenT (Aug 18, 2009)

del said:


> JenT said:
> 
> 
> > del said:
> ...



well I would say but I might hurt your feelings again, wouldn't want to do that

(but you really shouldn't be so hard on yourself)


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## Diuretic (Aug 18, 2009)

Ravi said:


> del said:
> 
> 
> > Ravi said:
> ...



Especially when working in large groups.


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## JakeStarkey (Aug 18, 2009)

Law enforcement are folks, too, right?  They get scared, and, yes, they over react.  I remember when the NG troops shot students their own age, and the student rebellion of late spring 1970 began.  In some cities in California, I gather, particularly near Santa Barbara and the other university towns, police officers weren't safe by themselves through out that summer.  The police were going to clear out the students who had overtaken the administration and fine art buildings at one public university, and several hundred students turned out in football helmets, fashioned shields, arm and knee pads, and baseball bats.  Up to a thousand students gathered at the upper windows of the library to watch the mayhem.  Wiser heads prevailed, the cops did not come, and the professors that night managed to talk the students out of their buildings, and gave them a token building over near the athletic field.  That more did not die that May through the summer of 1970 is amazing.


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## del (Aug 18, 2009)

JenT said:


> del said:
> 
> 
> > JenT said:
> ...



among your many delusions is the one that you could hurt my feelings.

trust me, you've got a better chance of having a coherent thought than hurting my feelings, which is to say, no chance at all.


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## Diuretic (Aug 18, 2009)

I'm not sitting on the fence here, I promise! 

Any urban myth (assuming this "spitting on returning military personnel") I think (cos I can't prove it) has a germ of truth to it.  It is entirely possible that in the United States in the aftermath of the Vietnam War someone spat on a returned military person, probably hurling the epithet "babykiller!".  I don't see how anyone can prove that happened and I don't see how it can be proven not to have happened.  If you ever work out how to prove a negative, contact me, I'll manage your publicity for a small fee.

I didn't see it here in Australia.  But there's a lot of stuff I miss on a daily basis, I have to admit, so it could have happened.  I can tell you what I saw at various anti-war demonstrations though and at least in my experience there was no spitting.  There was a heap of chanting, flag-waving, swearing, laughing, joking (at one demo I saw an old school chum of mine and we had a good talk in no-man's land between the demonstrators and the cops, when I got back in line my Sergeant reamed me out for "fraternising" - for fux sake.  

Anyway, I did see during some of the demos some (obviously) military personnel (those of you who were actually around back then remember that young men had long hair and if you had short back and sides you were in the military or a copper or very, very square) hopping in and trying to go the biff with some of the demonstrators.  The coppers on the occasion I'm remembering stopped the soldiers before any damage was done and told them to piss off, which they did.  No-one was hurt although there was much invective tossed around on all sides.  But no spitting - from anyone.  But in that crowd of thousands of people it's entirely possible that someone, somewhere, spat on someone else.

The point is, if it happened, what do you think about it?

I wouldn't have spit* on a returning military person even though I was opposed to the war in Vietnam.  The way I see it, the poor bastards had no choice but to go, either that or do several years in the stockade (interestingly those who refused to be conscripted when they were notified were locked up in military prisons after being court-martialled.  Why would I blame them?  I would have preferred to piss down the leg of the bastard Prime Minister who involved us in that war but that wouldn't happen either of course, I might be cranky but I'm not nuts.

Anyway, if it happened to anyone it shouldn't have happened and if someone got biffed for doing it then they got what they deserved.  If it didn't happen then that's good because no-one is actually carrying the memory of being spat on on their return from a war.  



*The spit/spat thing is a real pain to work out.


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## JenT (Aug 18, 2009)

del said:


> JenT said:
> 
> 
> > del said:
> ...



well if I "insult" you without one profane word, to the point I get a three day vacation, I assume I hurt your feelings. But you're right. you're a tough man, I could never hurt your feelings, what was I thinking.

Just keep following me around and calling me stupid, big tough powerful people can do that.


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## noose4 (Aug 18, 2009)

JenT said:


> you might learn from this man though
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## JenT (Aug 18, 2009)

JenT said:


> Just two days ago...how odd a whole town remembers and apologizes
> 
> [edited]
> 
> ...



Diuretic, did you miss this post?

Apparently America remembers


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## Diuretic (Aug 18, 2009)

No Jen I didn't miss it.  Nor did I ignore it.


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## del (Aug 18, 2009)

JenT said:


> del said:
> 
> 
> > JenT said:
> ...





you're fucked. enjoy it.


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## JenT (Aug 18, 2009)

del said:


> JenT said:
> 
> 
> > del said:
> ...



 if you can give it and won't take it...

 like sands through the hourglass...


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## Ravi (Aug 18, 2009)

Diuretic said:


> I'm not sitting on the fence here, I promise!
> 
> Any urban myth (assuming this "spitting on returning military personnel") I think (cos I can't prove it) has a germ of truth to it.  It is entirely possible that in the United States in the aftermath of the Vietnam War someone spat on a returned military person, probably hurling the epithet "babykiller!".  I don't see how anyone can prove that happened and I don't see how it can be proven not to have happened.  If you ever work out how to prove a negative, contact me, I'll manage your publicity for a small fee.
> 
> ...


What's funny though is that the more you repeat a lie, the more people tend to believe it. There was no reported widespread spitting on Vietnam Vets and those that keep pretending there was are really only trying to divide the country while using Vets as a tool.

That's fucked, imo.


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## JenT (Aug 18, 2009)

Ravi said:


> Diuretic said:
> 
> 
> > I'm not sitting on the fence here, I promise!
> ...



It's sadly the truth, I was there. 

And now a whole town is going for a do-over because they know the same thing.

But what i think is pretty sad is a person cant even take the space to thank the Vets without all you libs and even non-libs having melt downs and derailing the thread trying to claim it never happened. I got no clue why.


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## noose4 (Aug 18, 2009)

JenT said:


> Ravi said:
> 
> 
> > Diuretic said:
> ...



because reality is an amazing concept.


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## JakeStarkey (Aug 18, 2009)

Ravi's mad about and denies that many veterans were spit on during the Vietnam era, despite the testimony and posts that support it and show that Lemcke was a liar.

Ravi, get over it, dude!


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## JenT (Aug 18, 2009)

noose4 said:


> JenT said:
> 
> 
> > Ravi said:
> ...



noose, just cause it didn't happen in your little corner of the world, doesn't mean it didn't happen. I don't think you're omnipresent.

The claim that it was a myth was completely destroyed by Turner, a whole town remembers and is doing something about it, and a critically acclaimed book called "The Killing Zone" by a war hero destroys any denial...



> In the fall of 1968, as I stopped at a traffic light on my walk to class across the campus of the University of Denver a man walked up to me and said, Hi.
> 
> Without waiting for my reply to his greeting, he pointed to the hook sticking out of my left sleeve. Got that in Vietnam?
> 
> ...



Then we have this autobiography: 



> We pulled up in the Army school bus to the front of the Seattle Airport. It was now a little after ten PM. My ticket was sweaty in my hand, I had two hours to wait, and Id be on my way home. Then as the door opened, the bus driver calmly announced, be prepared, hostile-fire.
> 
> What?
> 
> ...



You can deny it all you want to but eventually


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## rightwinger (Aug 19, 2009)

JenT said:


> JenT said:
> 
> 
> > Just two days ago...how odd a whole town remembers and apologizes
> ...



JenT actually makes a good point with her post. The soldiers came home to nothing. They were just issued their release and sent on their way. By allowing soldiers to return one at a time, the Army robbed them of a chance to be formally recognized for their service. Local communities also had that opportunity and passed.
My grandfather was a WWII Vet and VFW member. I remember how he and his friends spoke about the Viet Nam vets. They didn't stop them from joining the VFW, but did not encourage it. Viet Vets were looked at as a lower class of veteran than the guys in WWII and Korea. They were long haired, had facial hair, wore torn fatigues with patches on them. VFW made very little effort to honor returning vets


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## Ravi (Aug 19, 2009)

rightwinger said:


> JenT said:
> 
> 
> > JenT said:
> ...


True enough, though the Korean Vets also didn't get much recognition...because Korea wasn't a "real" war like WW2. Notice that they got their monument in DC years after the Vietnam Vets got theirs.


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## Emma (Aug 19, 2009)

strollingbones said:


> please provide links to all these stories about americans spitting on and throwing blood on vietnam vets...cause most of that is simply bullshit....i welcomed home a soldier from two tours....and he is not the only one.....my friends did tours etc...i never remember anyone spitting or saying anything to them....this is one of the vietnam myths....please provide proof of what you have posted...
> 
> do you feel this way about vets from the uss liberty?  they were called liars etc...do you speak up for them too?



I was gonna say...

I had numerous relatives (uncles and cousins and my father in law) who fought in Vietnam. Not a single one of them was treated badly when they arrived home. No spitting, blood tossing or anything else she described. I also watched the news as a kid back then; I don't recall seeing any of that on TV either. That's not to say it didn't happen to someone somewhere. Anything is possible. But I really doubt that it was anywhere close to what she's making it out to be.


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## Emma (Aug 19, 2009)

strollingbones said:


> By early April, stories were circulating in several US cities about uniformed military personnel being spat on or otherwise mistreated. In Asheville, North Carolina, two Marines were rumored to have been spat upon, while in Spokane, Washington, a threat to "spit on the troops when they return from Iraq" was reportedly issued. In Burlington, Vermont, a leader of the state National Guard told local television, "We've had some spitting incidents," and then claimed one of his Guardswomen had been stoned by anti-war teenagers.
> 
> Upon further investigation, none of the stories panned out  the Spokane "threat" stemmed from the misreading of a letter in the local paper promising that opponents of the war would not spit on returning soldiers  and yet, in each case the rumors were used to stoke pro-war rallies.
> 
> Vietnam Veterans Against the War: THE VETERAN: Spitting on the Troops: Old Myth, New Rumors



_In fact, the Veterans Administration commissioned a Harris Poll in 1971 that found 94% of Vietnam veterans reporting friendly homecomings from their age-group peers who had not served in the military._

Interesting.


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## JakeStarkey (Aug 19, 2009)

Using the above figures, if 4mm served during the Vietnam Era and 6% of them were treated poorly over a 8-year period, then that is averaged out at 2,500 incidents per month, about eighty per day.  

Say ten percent of those were for spitting, etc., then averages to eight per day, fifty-six per week, 224 per month, and about 2,500 each year for eight years.

So, yes, 'something' happened, and it happened to many service people.

I remember the VFW WWII and KW vets looking down on the VWer vets as somehow not as quality.


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## Emma (Aug 19, 2009)

JakeStarkey said:


> Using the above figures, if 4mm served during the Vietnam Era and 6% of them were treated poorly over a 8-year period, then that is averaged out at 2,500 incidents per month, about eighty per day.
> 
> Say ten percent of those were for spitting, etc., then averages to eight per day, fifty-six per week, 224 per month, and about 2,500 each year for eight years.
> 
> ...


I can only speak to the people I knew (relatives and their friends) who didn't experience anything of the sort. 

... I'd have to count them up. I have a big family and all the men on my dad's side served in the military; only a few on my mom's side didn't (and I'm not just talking about Vietnam but served in general). Many of those who did were career.

 But as far as those who were in Vietnam... My father in law; both of my father's brothers; a number of his younger cousins; 5 of my mom's 7 brothers (the older two had served prior to Vietnam); cousins (children of the 2 oldest); a number of my Mom's cousins. And then their friends who served with them (they frequently brought them home on leave and such). Not a one experienced a negative homecoming. I know that a number of them didn't experience a big welcome home either (like what I saw with my brother in both Iraq wars), just neutral, I'd say.


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## Ravi (Aug 19, 2009)

And yet...no newspaper accounts or arrest records, no pictures from Jen, and Jake too chicken to explain his experience.


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## Emma (Aug 19, 2009)

Ravi said:


> And yet...no newspaper accounts or arrest records, no pictures from Jen, and Jake too chicken to explain his experience.



Like I said, it very well could have happened. But I don't believe it was as widespread as what people seem to think.


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## editec (Aug 19, 2009)

rightwinger said:


> JenT said:
> 
> 
> > JenT said:
> ...




*Spot on!* 




> My grandfather was a WWII Vet and VFW member. I remember how he and his friends spoke about the Viet Nam vets.


 
Yup.  Let me tell you that wasn't in the past either.  Most VFWs aren't even run by real Vets anymore.  





> They didn't stop them from joining the VFW, but did not encourage it.


 
Hell, they actively discouraged us from joining.



> Viet Vets were looked at as a lower class of veteran than the guys in WWII and Korea. They were long haired, had facial hair, wore torn fatigues with patches on them. VFW made very little effort to honor returning vets


 
Worthless fucking durnken jerkoffs ran those organizations when we were coming home.

Even their more honorable WWII vets and Korean Vets couldn't stand most of them.

Barstool heros mostly ran those places.


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## JenT (Aug 19, 2009)

This is unfreaking believable.

First they go over there to fight for the freedom of the world, are thrown into hideous conditions, are shot at, go through all kinds of hell, the ones who survive finally get to come home, many wounded for the rest of their lives. Whether they are actually the ones that got physically spit on or not is not the issue, they were disparaged after going through hell for us in many different ways, which is shameful in and of itself, something many of us came to believe was wrong and regretted. 

Then there are celebrations for our men of Iraq coming home and everyone (I believe) is ultra careful not to make that mistake again and the parties are a little brighter in memory of the Vietnam Vets, but how would they know that. So they watch, remembering the shameful sentiment of the past, the welcome homes of todays men, and I don't care how tough you are that has to hurt.

And I know that many in Iraq were worried they would come home and be treated as the Vietnam vets were, another spur on America's response in the 70s.

So I apologize specifically and say thank you. Nobody had to enter the thread, nobody had to make a big deal about it. It was just some font in one of a thousand threads. But you couldn't let it happen. We had to have almost 200 posts fighting about if anything happened, probably digging up ugly memories that never should have been dug up. 

And now Emma, you pile on and want to see the actual spitting too. Does it matter if it was spitting or eggs or chicken blood or a scowl, Emma, after the hell they went through to come home to even a scowl instead of appreciation can be just as unbelievably offensive. Questions are asked about how they should have reacted. I would imagine they were so shocked, and after DODGING BULLETS for how many years, you think they really fell apart over spit? To think of what happened to them and then have America insult them when they arrived home, that was insult to injury, and not worthy of response. 

You guys are sick, and I apologize to every vet who came by this thread. If even one man or woman who went through that hell has relived some of the anger and hurt that happened years ago, I am so sorry. And ashamed of that fraction of America that has the audacity to accuse people they have no clue what they've been through of not being honest on top of everything else.

Every vet I have ever met has not wanted to talk about nam. They don't complain, they don't ask for sympathy, they just shoulder the burdens and carry on. Now I understand a little better why. And I am sorry I ever brought it up on THIS venue. Because the majority of America seriously does not agree with these ...people.

God bless you Vietnam Vets.


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## Ravi (Aug 19, 2009)

When you post lies you get called on it. Pretty simple.


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## JenT (Aug 19, 2009)

To all Vets and acting military, "there goes my hero, watch him as he goes"

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-OFF68ezIcM&feature=related]YouTube - Tribute to the USMC SEMPER-Fi[/ame]


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## JakeStarkey (Aug 19, 2009)

Emma said:


> JakeStarkey said:
> 
> 
> > Using the above figures, if 4mm served during the Vietnam Era and 6% of them were treated poorly over a 8-year period, then that is averaged out at 2,500 incidents per month, about eighty per day.
> ...



I am happy that your family's service members did not suffer bad homecomings.  That is a great blessing.


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## JakeStarkey (Aug 19, 2009)

To all vets everywhere, thanks.  And to those who despise you with their lives, ignore them.


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## editec (Aug 19, 2009)

JenT said:


> This is unfreaking believable.
> 
> First they go over there to fight for the freedom of the world, are thrown into hideous conditions, are shot at, go through all kinds of hell, the ones who survive finally get to come home, many wounded for the rest of their lives. Whether they are actually the ones that got physically spit on or not is not the issue, they were disparaged after going through hell for us in many different ways, which is shameful in and of itself, something many of us came to believe was wrong and regretted.
> 
> ...


 
Thank you but really...no apology necessary, Jen.

You really want to apologise to Viet Nam vets?

Make god damned sure we never do anything so fucking stupid again.

Of course, given that we are currently doing something nearly equally as stupid ,right now, I'd say that that's not within your ability to do.

That's not you fault, either Jen.

The people who reallly need to apologise for how we were ignored and abandoned are mostly dead and gone, anyway.

That was my father's generation who sent us on a mission that made no sense and then blamed us for their failures.

_We, the unwilling, who were sent to the do the impossible, for the ungrateful_ are mostly over our anger at what happened to us.

What many of us are furious about _now,_ is that our leaders appear to have learned_ NOTHING_ from Viet Nam.

Save you apologies for the VETS coming home from Afghanistan.


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## rightwinger (Aug 19, 2009)

JakeStarkey said:


> To all vets everywhere, thanks.  And to those who despise you with their lives, ignore them.


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## JakeStarkey (Aug 19, 2009)

Old men always send young men to die in wars.  JenT was apologizing for herself and those who acted like her.  That takes guts.  "Only" about 5,000 have died this time.  You are right.  We can be so stupid as people to put up with this.


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## noose4 (Aug 19, 2009)

> JenT
> 
> 
> 
> noose, just cause it didn't happen in your little corner of the world, doesn't mean it didn't happen. I don't think you're omnipresent.



i live in very big very liberal new york city, troops have pretty much always been treated well here but for some reason the people in the "heartland" of the nation have all these spitting on soldier stories



> The claim that it was a myth was completely destroyed by Turner, a whole town remembers and is doing something about it, and a critically acclaimed book called "The Killing Zone" by a war hero destroys any denial...



yet you mentioned seeing pictures of this going on but can not produce said pictures



> In the fall of 1968, as I stopped at a traffic light on my walk to class across the campus of the University of Denver a man walked up to me and said, Hi.
> 
> Without waiting for my reply to his greeting, he pointed to the hook sticking out of my left sleeve. Got that in Vietnam?
> 
> ...



even if that happend it is an isolatd incident.



> _The Killing Zone_ by Fredrick Downs Jr, who received four purple hearts, a Bronze Star with valor and a Silver Star.
> 
> Amazon.com: The Killing Zone: My Life in the Vietnam War (9780393310894): Frederick Downs Jr.: Books


[/QUOTE]



> Then we have this autobiography:
> We pulled up in the Army school bus to the front of the Seattle Airport. It was now a little after ten PM. My ticket was sweaty in my hand, I had two hours to wait, and Id be on my way home. Then as the door opened, the bus driver calmly announced, be prepared, hostile-fire.
> 
> What?
> ...



You can deny it all you want to but eventually[/QUOTE]


could be dramatic license? where were the police? were charges filed?


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## noose4 (Aug 19, 2009)

JenT said:


> This is unfreaking believable.
> 
> First they go over there to fight for the freedom of the world, are thrown into hideous conditions, are shot at, go through all kinds of hell, the ones who survive finally get to come home, many wounded for the rest of their lives. Whether they are actually the ones that got physically spit on or not is not the issue, they were disparaged after going through hell for us in many different ways, which is shameful in and of itself, something many of us came to believe was wrong and regretted.
> 
> ...




your faux outrage is noted too bad you heartland types decided to do this 24 years after us nyc evil liberals did ours.
NY Vietnam Veterans Memorial



> In the City of New York, Mayor Edward I. Koch, a veteran of combat in the European theatre during the Second World War, appointed a 27-member Mayor's Task Force on a Vietnam Veterans Memorial in 1981. Mayor Koch was a pioneering public official in his efforts to help right the wrongs - and alter the perceptions - of Vietnam veterans.





> The Memorial was dedicated on the night of May 6, 1985. The next day, *the "Welcome Home" parade, the largest ticker-tape parade in New York City history to that point, was held.* The call for letters and poems for inclusion on the Memorial inspired the compilation and publication of the best-selling book, Dear America: Letters Home from Vietnam; the book, in turn, became the basis for a Peabody- and Emmy Award-winning film of the same name.


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## Emma (Aug 19, 2009)

JenT said:


> And now Emma, you pile on and want to see the actual spitting too. Does it matter if it was spitting or eggs or chicken blood or a scowl, Emma, after the hell they went through to come home to even a scowl instead of appreciation can be just as unbelievably offensive.


And I'm telling you, the people I know in my family and their friends did NOT experience that. Period. 

Are you calling the vets in my family LIARS?


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## Emma (Aug 19, 2009)

JakeStarkey said:


> Old men always send young men to die in wars.  JenT was apologizing for herself and those who acted like her.



I missed that. SHE spat on troops?


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## Emma (Aug 19, 2009)

JakeStarkey said:


> Emma said:
> 
> 
> > JakeStarkey said:
> ...


Yes it is. 

I agree that they were not sent home as they were from Iraq, as units where big welcoming ceremonies were held in their honor. But they did not experience any negative reaction. 

I remember when my brother came home from the first Gulf war, he was inundated with all kinds of freebies (Sheraton offered returning service men and women free stays in their hotels, stuff like that). He was actually _embarrassed_ by all the hoopla. He said simply, "It's my job." The Sheraton thing was the only one he accepted and just for one night. And that's because he knew my girls wanted to see the Aquarium in Baltimore and well... uncle can't say no to his nieces (he's spoiled them rotten lol).


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## Emma (Aug 19, 2009)

And btw Jen, I just looked over my posts again, because I sure as hell didn't remember saying such a thing. 



> And now Emma, you pile on and want to see the actual spitting too.



I haven't asked to see the spitting. I specifically stated I was speaking for _my own family_ and their friends.


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## logical4u (Aug 19, 2009)

I know one person that was called baby-killer on a bus, spit on and had things thrown at him in plastic bags while walking thru an airport.
It was shortly after this time (and for quite a while longer) the military was told not to travel in uniform.
Watch the clips with Jane Fonda and John Kerry 'demonstrating' from that time...it was rude, it was terrible.
The military, also, are excluded from 'hate crimes', even though, they are targeted for being part of the military in the civilian population in this country.


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## strollingbones (Aug 19, 2009)

logical4u said:


> I know one person that was called baby-killer on a bus, spit on and had things thrown at him in plastic bags while walking thru an airport.
> It was shortly after this time (and for quite a while longer) the military was told not to travel in uniform.
> Watch the clips with Jane Fonda and John Kerry 'demonstrating' from that time...it was rude, it was terrible.
> The military, also, are excluded from 'hate crimes', even though, they are targeted for being part of the military in the civilian population in this country.[/QUOTE
> ...


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## rightwinger (Aug 19, 2009)

logical4u said:


> I know one person that was called baby-killer on a bus, spit on and had things thrown at him in plastic bags while walking thru an airport.
> *It was shortly after this time (and for quite a while longer) the military was told not to travel in uniform*.
> Watch the clips with Jane Fonda and John Kerry 'demonstrating' from that time...it was rude, it was terrible.
> The military, also, are excluded from 'hate crimes', even though, they are targeted for being part of the military in the civilian population in this country.




That is not why the military was told not to travel in uniform. In the late 80s there was a hijacking on a plane where a military member in uniform was picked out and killed, with his body thrown on the tarmac.
After that incident, the military changed the rules to allow soldiers to travel inconspicuously. More soldiers travel now in uniform, but are advised to wear civilian attire when entering some countries


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## logical4u (Aug 19, 2009)

I was in the military (late 70s early 80s), we did not travel in uniform.  We were told not to travel in uniform.  My spouse was in the military.  When traveling on duty, told to travel in 'civies'.  
Maybe your service was different.  I stand by: shortly after the our disgraceful withdrawal from Vietnam, military members were told to travel 'out of uniform'.


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## rightwinger (Aug 19, 2009)

It was after this incident that the military stopped requiring service members to travel in uniform



> TWA Flight 847 was hijacked en route from Athens to Rome and forced to land in Beirut, Lebanon, where the hijackers held the plane for 17 days. They demanded the release of the Kuwait 17 as well as the release of 700 fellow Shiite Muslim prisoners held in Israeli prisons and in prisons in southern Lebanon run by the Israeli-backed South Lebanon Army. When these demands weren't met, hostage Robert Dean Stethem, a U.S. Navy diver, was shot and his body dumped on the airport tarmac. U.S. sources implicated Hezbollah.


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## JakeStarkey (Aug 19, 2009)

strollingbones said:


> logical4u said:
> 
> 
> > I know one person that was called baby-killer on a bus, spit on and had things thrown at him in plastic bags while walking thru an airport.
> ...


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## Ralph (Aug 19, 2009)

noose4 said:


> JenT said:
> 
> 
> > This is unfreaking believable.
> ...



Would that not be considered A LIE...to suggest that NEW YORK by majority is a LIBERAL STATE?   Considering the FACTUAL INFORMATION that was just released that clearly points out the FACT that Conservatives outnumber LIBERALS in 47 of the 50 states with the other 3 being virtually tied....and NY, indeed was not even tied.     And another lie being propagatged is the fact that  NY somehow  preformed more than their share of duty in the Viet Nam conflict......when the FACTs point out that is was WHITE...PROTESTANT SOUTHERNERS that by majority accounted for the greatest number of DEATHs in that conflict.   The ONLY thing NY might lead the nation in would be RUDENESS. 

Political Ideology: "Conservative" Label Prevails in the South


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## noose4 (Aug 19, 2009)

Ralph said:


> noose4 said:
> 
> 
> > JenT said:
> ...



new york is one state the south is many states, this is from over 25 years ago so it is not a lie in labeling new york as liberal then(or now) and considering your post aboveyour part of the country is doing a good job in catching up to new york regarding the rude thing, and i bet you have never even been to nyc to make such an ignorant statement, the only rude people here are those who came here from other parts of thecountry.


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## JenT (Aug 19, 2009)

So I get to work and part of my job is to look for articles that relate to our department. What do ya know, from the associated press, following are excerpts



> RE-ENACTING VIETNAM
> By GENARO C. ARMAS
> Associated Press Writer
> 
> ...



The article also says these events are popping up all over.

Naysayers on this board are a fraction minority. 

America loves the Vietnam vet.


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## noose4 (Aug 19, 2009)

JenT said:


> So I get to work and part of my job is to look for articles that relate to our department. What do ya know, from the associated press, following are excerpts
> 
> 
> 
> ...



then why did you feel the need to apologize?


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## JakeStarkey (Aug 19, 2009)

JenT, you are dealing with kooks.  I have no idea what their kooky endgame may be, but this I do know -- they are kooky and the hate the Vietnam Vets.


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## Ravi (Aug 19, 2009)

Next time you want to honor Vets, Jen, leave out the lies and don't use the Vets as tools.

It's really not that hard to do.


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## strollingbones (Aug 19, 2009)

JakeStarkey said:


> JenT, you are dealing with kooks.  I have no idea what their kooky endgame may be, but this I do know -- they are kooky and the hate the Vietnam Vets.



and you sir are an idiot....my family are vets...do i hate them...no ...i hate lies and myths....seems the one who has the problem is the one who claims to have spit on vets...your good buddy jent....


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## JakeStarkey (Aug 19, 2009)

strollingbones said:


> JakeStarkey said:
> 
> 
> > JenT, you are dealing with kooks.  I have no idea what their kooky endgame may be, but this I do know -- they are kooky and the hate the Vietnam Vets.
> ...



You hate "lies" and "myths".  Then you hate yourself, because the spitting happened.  The uncontrovertible evidence has been posted, and what you _think _matters not a drop.


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## JakeStarkey (Aug 19, 2009)

'sbones, why do you hate JenT so?

I think that is your real reason for all the nonsense on your part.


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## Ravi (Aug 19, 2009)

What a delusional douche bag.


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## JakeStarkey (Aug 19, 2009)

Ravi, you have no evidence for your belief about the spitting on vets, so you are dismissed.

Carryon!


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## rightwinger (Aug 19, 2009)

> Would that not be considered A LIE...to suggest that NEW YORK by majority is a LIBERAL STATE? Considering the FACTUAL INFORMATION that was just released that clearly points out the FACT that Conservatives outnumber LIBERALS in 47 of the 50 states with the other 3 being virtually tied....and NY, indeed was not even tied. And another lie being propagatged is the fact that NY somehow preformed more than their share of duty in the Viet Nam conflict......when the FACTs point out that is was WHITE...PROTESTANT SOUTHERNERS that by majority accounted for the greatest number of DEATHs in that conflict. The ONLY thing NY might lead the nation in would be RUDENESS.



I believe Ed Koch was Mayor of New York City never known as a conservative bastion.

I'd have to see your numbers on White Protestant Southerners being the largest number of deaths. Given that the draft covered the entire US and included Blacks and other religions, I'd have to see where the southern whites suffered more deaths than the rest of the country combined.


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## JakeStarkey (Aug 19, 2009)

I don't have a dog in this thought but do have some comments.

Southern White Protestants have traditionally enlisted in signficantly greater numbers in relation to the overall population.  However, the draft was on, which was weighted against minorities, the poor, and the uneducated.  African Americans, additionally, were enlisting in greater numbers because of the benefits and retirement at twenty years.  Their numbers in the Army may have been as high as three times their percentage of the population by the early 1980s.


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## rightwinger (Aug 19, 2009)

JakeStarkey said:


> I don't have a dog in this thought but do have some comments.
> 
> Southern White Protestants have traditionally enlisted in signficantly greater numbers in relation to the overall population.  However, the draft was on, which was weighted against minorities, the poor, and the uneducated.  African Americans, additionally, were enlisting in greater numbers because of the benefits and retirement at twenty years.  Their numbers in the Army may have been as high as three times their percentage of the population by the early 1980s.



Exactly as I remember it. It was the lower class and minorities that did not get the draft deferments. To state that "Southern White Protestants" bore the bulk of the deaths is disrecpectful to the large numbers of southern blacks who also fought and died.


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## Sunni Man (Aug 19, 2009)

rightwinger said:


> JakeStarkey said:
> 
> 
> > I don't have a dog in this thought but do have some comments.
> ...


For most of the Vietnam War a person enrolled in college got a draft deferment.

As most blacks couldn't get into college because of low grades or didn't have the money.

It was mainly white kids who got the deferments and poor uneducated blacks were prime fodder for the draff.


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## JakeStarkey (Aug 19, 2009)

All I know there was so many dead of what-ever-color of Americans.


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## Diuretic (Aug 19, 2009)

I know this is about the American Vietnam War experience but perhaps some reflection on what happened in my country might add to the discussion.  

When Australia sent her military to Vietnam most people here didn't have  clue where it was (twist on the old "God invented war to teach Americans geography" joke).  We couldn't even pronounce it properly, I remember a kid at high school with me telling me it was pronounced, "Vietnum".  And you know it was pretty low key while the regular (career) military were being sent there.  There were some early anti-war demonstrations, mainly led by those lovely Quaker people (never met one I didn't like).  On their street marches they used to use the footpath and when they got to the pedestrian "don't cross" red light they'd obey it even though the front of the line had crossed on the green.  

Anyway, as things hotted up we sent our National Service personnel as well.  The shit hit the fan then.  We had National Service as a standing requirement - I think it was called selective service in the US, not sure.  But we started sending Nashos as we called them to Vietnam.  Errol Noack was killed in 1966.

Pte Errol W Noack

It wasn't long after Pte Noack's death that the anti-war movement really got into gear.  I have to make this point first up, it was 'anti-war' not 'anti-soldier'.  A lot of those folks who went out on the streets believed in the old WWI pacifist slogan that a bayonet was a weapon with a worker at both ends.  But then many of them were highly radicalised as well.  I remember confronting (with my colleagues) a beakaway group at a very big demo where they were waving Viet Cong flags, had the headbands on and all the rest of it, and were chanting in support of Ho Chi Minh (nowadays their contemporaries would be chanting "ho" as part of the words to a rap song, but I digress).  

Public opinion, at first complacent, then later supportive of the government's policy in sending our military to someone else's war (Australia has a fine track record for that) due to the influence of the domino theory and our long held fear of the "yellow hordes" from the north, began to change when the casualties mounted up.  People smelled the rat of propaganda, worked out the war was for a bullshit cause and began to resist.  But again the finger was pointed at the government, no the individuals who were sent to Vietnam.

I have to say that when our involvement ended there was no big welcoming back parade, one of the reasons was that our government and the military brass had completely stuffed up the return process.  Soldiers came back in dribs and drabs instead of as complete units.



> Parades for soldiers returning from Vietnam were easier to organise when large units travelled home on ships. Many soldiers, for one reason or another, flew home to an airport and disappeared into the crowds. It was not the opponents of the war who made such bad decisions about repatriation.



Protesters not to blame for Viet vets neglect - Eureka Street

Some of the WWII and Korea and Malaya vets were a bit disparaging of the Vietnam vets but that didn't continue for long.  I don't remember our Vietnam vets being ashamed of their service either.  I worked with many colleagues who had done their National Service in Vietnam and proudly wore their ribbons on their uniforms. I worked with several who wore the Infantry Combat Badge (http://www.defence.gov.au/army/RAINF/docs/AP97_05.pdf).  

One of the best representations I saw about the war from our perspective was a film called "The Odd Angry Shot".  The production values now look a bit cheap but I remember at the time some of my mates who served were absolutely full of praise for the film, saying it took them back.  For mine, having seen it several times, the final scenes of the blokes back in Australia having a beer in a bar and being served by a vaguely interested barman and basically ignored by everyone else is key to the film.  Anyway I suppose you have to see it to understand what I'm on about.

&#8216;One of the most realistic war film ever made&#8217;

So what's my point?  My point is that there is much mythology about the Vietnam War, no surprise there, it happens for all wars.  But it seems to me that that war and its aftermath will be dragged up time and time again by those who want a partisan shitfight about contemporary issues and will use the various versions of the war and its accompanying mythologies to try and bolster their position on whatever it is being discussed.  The individuals who fought in that war were used then, they shouldn't be used a second, third, fourth, fifth and so on, time.  

Better to push governments for better treatment of returning personnel

PostTraumatic Stress Disorder (PTSD): An Australian Vietnam Veteran's Experience

And for the partisan hacks of the right who insist on demonising the left because "they didn't/don't support the troops!"  take this and shove it.  This is the voice of the left:

[youtube]<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/n7TXBuVUQJw&hl=en&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/n7TXBuVUQJw&hl=en&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>[/youtube]



> Mum and Dad and Denny saw the passing out parade at Puckapunyal,
> (1t was long march from cadets).
> The Sixth Battalion was the next to tour and it was me who drew the card&#8230;
> We did Canungra and Shoalwater before we left.
> ...


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## JenT (Aug 19, 2009)

JakeStarkey said:


> 'sbones, why do you hate JenT so?
> 
> I think that is your real reason for all the nonsense on your part.



Jake that's exactly what I was about to post but then they'd go into a diatribe about how I think it's all about me 



Ravi said:


> Next time you want to honor Vets, Jen, leave out the lies and don't use the Vets as tools.
> 
> It's really not that hard to do.





strollingbones said:


> JakeStarkey said:
> 
> 
> > JenT, you are dealing with kooks.  I have no idea what their kooky endgame may be, but this I do know -- they are kooky and the hate the Vietnam Vets.
> ...



baiting (shrug) 

and I think it's really rude you would care so little about people that fought for you and your country, just to try to play games with me

I can't see any other reason for your stubborness



JenT said:


> To all Vets and acting military, "there goes my hero, watch him as he goes"
> 
> YouTube - Tribute to the USMC SEMPER-Fi


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## Emma (Aug 19, 2009)

Diuretic said:


> I know this is about the American Vietnam War experience but perhaps some reflection on what happened in my country might add to the discussion.
> 
> When Australia sent her military to Vietnam most people here didn't have  clue where it was (twist on the old "God invented war to teach Americans geography" joke).  We couldn't even pronounce it properly, I remember a kid at high school with me telling me it was pronounced, "Vietnum".  And you know it was pretty low key while the regular (career) military were being sent there.  There were some early anti-war demonstrations, mainly led by those lovely Quaker people (never met one I didn't like).  On their street marches they used to use the footpath and when they got to the pedestrian "don't cross" red light they'd obey it even though the front of the line had crossed on the green.
> 
> ...


Oh God. I'm in tears. Thank you for this.


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## noose4 (Aug 19, 2009)

that is a very powerful, strong song thanks for posting it i had never heard it before.


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## Diuretic (Aug 19, 2009)

Thank you both for viewing it.


----------

