# But...I thought Australia solved their gun crime problem by banning guns...so...how do these criminals have guns?



## 2aguy

Another article on gun crime in Australia .......

*More than 14 hardened criminals are being found in possession of firearms each week as the state grapples with a rising gun culture that has led to twice as many Victorians shot dead in 2019.*
*
The Age can reveal 52 people were shot and 14 fatally gunned down across the state last year, twice as many as the previous 12 months, with handguns increasingly used by criminals to settle drug debts or underworld disputes.
*
*During the past 24 hours lives were threatened in two separate gun crimes in Melbourne's north after a shot was fired as a Hadfield supermarket owner wrestled a gun from the hand of a robber and armed bandits reportedly stormed a Westmeadows tavern eight kilometres away.
-----*

*Anti-gangs division Detective Superintendent Peter Brigham said illegal firearms were routinely unearthed at the homes of drug traffickers and in the possession of “gangster types” chasing image and status.*









						Gun violence grips Victoria as deadly shootings double
					

More than 14 hardened criminals are being found in possession of firearms each week as the state grapples with a rising gun culture that has led to a 50 per cent spike in the number of Victorian's gunned down in 2019.




					www.theage.com.au
				




Quick question......are "Assault rifles," banned in Australia now?   

How about grenades....you know...grenades?

*n September, a 35-year-old Docklands man was sentenced to at least eight years' jail for heroin trafficking. As part of his plea deal, the former Iraqi national led police to a cache of weapons wrapped in plastic and hidden in a Melbourne drain. They included an SKS assault rifle and grenades.*

*See...the problem?  Australia seems to have forgotten to ban high powered military rifles for criminals........perhaps they should pass more gun control laws.....*

*And while handguns were proving to be the gun of choice among young men, high powered military-grade firearms were in demand from the city’s outlaw motorcycle gangs.*


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## 2aguy

Wait...what?

But.....they banned guns...right? 

Don't criminals understand that guns are banned?

*The killings that shocked the city*
*In eight weeks from March to May 2019, a string of public shootings rocked Melbourne with eight men shot dead and two badly wounded.*

*They included the death of Ben Togiai outside a Melbourne Pavilion boxing match and killing of Mitat Rasimi in his car at Dandenong on March 3. The following day Ali Ali and Deniz Hasan died after being shot at Meadow Heights.
---------

In April, security guard Aaron Khalid Osmani and Richard Arow were gunned down outside Love Machine nightclub. Twelve days later Daniel O’Shea was shot dead in Fawkner Park. It remains the only unsolved gun homicide for 2019.*
*
In November, the murder of Croydon fruiterer and father Paul Virgona gripped the state when his van was peppered with bullets as he drove along the Eastlink.*
*Armed assailants also killed Duane Hutchings, Winis Apet , Scott Muston , Matthew Moroney and newly married Yarraville couple Veton and Lindita Musai in 2019.*


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## 2aguy

Now.....if the Australian government has banned and confiscated guns....which anti-gunners in the U.S. keep telling us is magic and stops gun crime.....then why are the police afraid of guns in the hands of criminals?

Gun Scourge?   But.....they banned guns.....

*Police Association secretary Wayne Gatt said the state’s gun scourge was in the back of frontline police's minds every time they responded to a call, pulled over a vehicle or intervened in a dispute.*


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## danielpalos

2aguy said:


> Another article on gun crime in Australia .......
> 
> *More than 14 hardened criminals are being found in possession of firearms each week as the state grapples with a rising gun culture that has led to twice as many Victorians shot dead in 2019.*
> 
> *The Age can reveal 52 people were shot and 14 fatally gunned down across the state last year, twice as many as the previous 12 months, with handguns increasingly used by criminals to settle drug debts or underworld disputes.*
> 
> *During the past 24 hours lives were threatened in two separate gun crimes in Melbourne's north after a shot was fired as a Hadfield supermarket owner wrestled a gun from the hand of a robber and armed bandits reportedly stormed a Westmeadows tavern eight kilometres away.
> -----*
> 
> *Anti-gangs division Detective Superintendent Peter Brigham said illegal firearms were routinely unearthed at the homes of drug traffickers and in the possession of “gangster types” chasing image and status.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Gun violence grips Victoria as deadly shootings double
> 
> 
> More than 14 hardened criminals are being found in possession of firearms each week as the state grapples with a rising gun culture that has led to a 50 per cent spike in the number of Victorian's gunned down in 2019.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.theage.com.au
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Quick question......are "Assault rifles," banned in Australia now?
> 
> How about grenades....you know...grenades?
> 
> *n September, a 35-year-old Docklands man was sentenced to at least eight years' jail for heroin trafficking. As part of his plea deal, the former Iraqi national led police to a cache of weapons wrapped in plastic and hidden in a Melbourne drain. They included an SKS assault rifle and grenades.*
> 
> *See...the problem?  Australia seems to have forgotten to ban high powered military rifles for criminals........perhaps they should pass more gun control laws.....*
> 
> *And while handguns were proving to be the gun of choice among young men, high powered military-grade firearms were in demand from the city’s outlaw motorcycle gangs.*


The defense and protection of the state and of the United States is an obligation of all persons within the state. The legislature shall provide for the discharge of this obligation and for the maintenance and regulation of an organized militia.

We should set an example.  We have a Second Amendment and should have no security problems in our free States.


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## 2aguy

2 men shot..in gun free Australia...

*A man has been discovered with a gunshot wound in a Sydney home just metres from where another man was found bleeding to death on a footpath hours earlier.*
*
A police operation was underway in Lewisham, in the city’s inner-west, on Friday evening as detectives tried to track down whoever was behind the attacks.


Neighbours found a man with a serious wound to his chest on the footpath about 1pm. Police initially said the man had been stabbed but a spokeswoman subsequently confirmed he had been shot.

“(I’d) just came back from coffee with a friend and found him on the side of the footpath,” witness Keith Mulhall told Seven News. The man, believed to be in his 30s, died on the way to hospital.
*
*Paramedics were later called to treat a second man, 55, found in a Victoria Street house with a gunshot wound to his head. Armed police surrounded the property and the man was rushed to hospital in a critical condition. NSW police later said he was in a serious condition.*









						One man is dead and another injured after shooting incident in Sydney
					

A police operation is under way in Lewisham to track down who is behind the attacks




					www.theguardian.com


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## 2aguy

A "spate," of shootings.....?  In gun free Australia?  But...I thought gun control solved that problem....

*The pair have become the latest victims in a spate of shootings that have put Sydney on edge over the last five weeks.*
*---

In that time, thirty shootings have been recorded which includes gang-linked violence and drive-by shootings, indicating criminal groups were having little difficulty bypassing Australia's strict gun laws. 
*
*Ten of the shootings were in regional NSW and 19 in Sydney's central metro region, which covers the CBD, eastern suburbs, Inner West and Sutherland Shire. *









						An ex-bikie has died days after a Lewisham double shooting
					

Albert Rick Difloriano, 55, was being treated at the Royal Prince Alfred Hospital after he was shot in the head at a Lewisham home, in Sydney's inner west, on Friday afternoon.




					www.dailymail.co.uk


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## 2aguy

Hmmmm...do the criminals in Australia know that they can't have guns anymore?  Especially military weapons?

I'm curious....which of the Australian gun control laws stopped anyone of the criminals involved from taking their rifles...fully automatic military rifles, into a school, a church, a theater, a mosque?

*"Since January 2019 across South Australia, there's been a total of 20 drive-by shootings where houses have actually been shot up … six of those related to the drug trade.*
*------

Detective Superintendent Stephen Taylor said police were concerned to have discovered such high-powered weapons, and that the investigation was ongoing.
*


> *"The Steyr is a fully-automatic military weapon, so the amount of damage that it can cause is massive," he said.*


------
*Police said they recovered a modified AR-15 semi-automatic rifle, two handguns, a revolver, ammunition, magazines, and a Steyr fully-automatic military rifle.*



> *"The recovery of the Steyr is the subject of a current Australian Defence Force investigation," police said.*


*Steyr's website states the weapon can function as a light machine gun, and is used by the military in several countries.*









						Machine gun linked to ADF among weapons seized in Adelaide raid, police say
					

A man faces court in Adelaide over a seizure of military-style weapons, including a rifle police said was the "subject of a current ADF investigation".




					www.abc.net.au


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## Jake Winker Frogen

Organised criminals in all countries can get guns.

They are not the problem, it is all the slobbering half wits with delusions of Clint Eastwood or Hip Hop grandeur with guns that sees so many people killed in the United States of Anger.


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## 2aguy

Jake Winker Frogen said:


> Organised criminals in all countries can get guns.
> 
> They are not the problem, it is all the slobbering half wits with delusions of Clint Eastwood or Hip Hop grandeur with guns that sees so many people killed in the United States of Anger.




Wrong, dipshit.........in the United States our gun problem and even around the world isn't normal people who own and carry guns for self defense...it is criminals shooting other criminals......

How do we know?  27 years of actual experience.....

Over the last 27 years, we went from 200 million guns in private hands in the 1990s and 4.7 million people carrying guns for self defense in 1997...to close to 400-600 million guns in private hands and* over 19.4 million people carrying guns for self defense in 2019...guess what happened...
*
New Concealed Carry Report For 2020: 19.48 Million Permit Holders, 820,000 More Than Last Year despite many states shutting down issuing permits because of the Coronavirus - Crime Prevention Research Center


--* gun murder down 49%

--gun crime down 75%

--violent crime down 72%*

Gun Homicide Rate Down 49% Since 1993 Peak; Public Unaware

*Compared with 1993, the peak of U.S. gun homicides, the firearm homicide rate was 49% lower in 2010, and there were fewer deaths, even though the nation’s population grew. The victimization rate for other violent crimes with a firearm—assaults, robberies and sex crimes—was 75% lower in 2011 than in 1993. Violent non-fatal crime victimization overall (with or without a firearm) also is down markedly (72%) over two decades.*

*You don't know what you are talking about, you obviously don't understand the issue....*



T


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## Jake Winker Frogen

Americans shoot each other like they are playing frisbee.

America has more accidental gun deaths than any democratic country on Earth, you kill your kids and friends and uncles and neighbours like serial killers in a bad B movie.


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## 2aguy

Jake Winker Frogen said:


> Americans shoot each other like they are playing frisbee.
> 
> America has more accidental gun deaths than any democratic country on Earth, you kill your kids and friends and uncles and neighbours like serial killers in a bad B movie.




No, Americans don't shoot each other, criminals shoot each other.

We have over 600 million guns in private hands, and over 19.4 million people have permits to carry guns for self defense....... over 320 million people in the country...



Accidental gun deaths?

In 2018, 458 accidental gun deaths....you moron.

Meanwhile, Americans use their legal guns 1.1 million times a year to save lives....from rape, robbery and murder according to the Centers for Disease Control.....


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## Jake Winker Frogen

2aguy said:


> Jake Winker Frogen said:
> 
> 
> 
> Americans shoot each other like they are playing frisbee.
> 
> America has more accidental gun deaths than any democratic country on Earth, you kill your kids and friends and uncles and neighbours like serial killers in a bad B movie.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No, Americans don't shoot each other, criminals shoot each other.
> 
> We have over 600 million guns in private hands, and over 19.4 million people have permits to carry guns for self defense....... over 320 million people in the country...
> 
> 
> 
> Accidental gun deaths?
> 
> In 2018, 458 accidental gun deaths....you moron.
> 
> Meanwhile, Americans use their legal guns 1.1 million times a year to save lives....from rape, robbery and murder according to the Centers for Disease Control.....
Click to expand...



Who is confining it to accidental gun deaths?

It is also the half wit uncle who shoots a neighbour in a rage or domestic gun violence or crimes that in other nations are not violent but in the USA involve guns.

For instance the UK has recently seen a wave of knife crime, had they the access to guns the US has the death toll would be horrendous, like the US.


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## Jake Winker Frogen

Even much your law enforcement often does not seem to know how to use a gun responsibly given how many people they kill.


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## Jake Winker Frogen

Mind you I will grant you this, Brazil slaughters more of their fellow citizens with guns than the USA, but you are number two.


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## 2aguy

Jake Winker Frogen said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jake Winker Frogen said:
> 
> 
> 
> Americans shoot each other like they are playing frisbee.
> 
> America has more accidental gun deaths than any democratic country on Earth, you kill your kids and friends and uncles and neighbours like serial killers in a bad B movie.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No, Americans don't shoot each other, criminals shoot each other.
> 
> We have over 600 million guns in private hands, and over 19.4 million people have permits to carry guns for self defense....... over 320 million people in the country...
> 
> 
> 
> Accidental gun deaths?
> 
> In 2018, 458 accidental gun deaths....you moron.
> 
> Meanwhile, Americans use their legal guns 1.1 million times a year to save lives....from rape, robbery and murder according to the Centers for Disease Control.....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Who is confining it to accidental gun deaths?
> 
> It is also the half wit uncle who shoots a neighbour in a rage or domestic gun violence or crimes that in other nations are not violent but in the USA involve guns.
> 
> For instance the UK has recently seen a wave of knife crime, had they the access to guns the US has the death toll would be horrendous, like the US.
Click to expand...



Yeah......doesn't happen.....the majority of all gun murder in the United States is criminals murdering other criminals, and of the rest, the majority is friends and family of the criminals caught in the crossfire......

As my post showed you.....More Americans now own and actually carry guns and our gun crime  and gu murder rates went down....which means you don't know what you are talking about.


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## 2aguy

Jake Winker Frogen said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jake Winker Frogen said:
> 
> 
> 
> Americans shoot each other like they are playing frisbee.
> 
> America has more accidental gun deaths than any democratic country on Earth, you kill your kids and friends and uncles and neighbours like serial killers in a bad B movie.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No, Americans don't shoot each other, criminals shoot each other.
> 
> We have over 600 million guns in private hands, and over 19.4 million people have permits to carry guns for self defense....... over 320 million people in the country...
> 
> 
> 
> Accidental gun deaths?
> 
> In 2018, 458 accidental gun deaths....you moron.
> 
> Meanwhile, Americans use their legal guns 1.1 million times a year to save lives....from rape, robbery and murder according to the Centers for Disease Control.....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Who is confining it to accidental gun deaths?
> 
> It is also the half wit uncle who shoots a neighbour in a rage or domestic gun violence or crimes that in other nations are not violent but in the USA involve guns.
> 
> For instance the UK has recently seen a wave of knife crime, had they the access to guns the US has the death toll would be horrendous, like the US.
Click to expand...



Over the last 27 years, we went from 200 million guns in private hands in the 1990s and 4.7 million people carrying guns for self defense in 1997...to close to 400-600 million guns in private hands and* over 19.4 million people carrying guns for self defense in 2019...guess what happened...*

New Concealed Carry Report For 2020: 19.48 Million Permit Holders, 820,000 More Than Last Year despite many states shutting down issuing permits because of the Coronavirus - Crime Prevention Research Center


--* gun murder down 49%

--gun crime down 75%

--violent crime down 72%*

Gun Homicide Rate Down 49% Since 1993 Peak; Public Unaware

Compared with 1993, the peak of U.S. gun homicides, the firearm homicide rate was 49% lower in 2010, and there were fewer deaths, even though the nation’s population grew. The victimization rate for other violent crimes with a firearm—assaults, robberies and sex crimes—was 75% lower in 2011 than in 1993. Violent non-fatal crime victimization overall (with or without a firearm) also is down markedly (72%) over two decades.


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## Jake Winker Frogen

2aguy said:


> Jake Winker Frogen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jake Winker Frogen said:
> 
> 
> 
> Americans shoot each other like they are playing frisbee.
> 
> America has more accidental gun deaths than any democratic country on Earth, you kill your kids and friends and uncles and neighbours like serial killers in a bad B movie.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No, Americans don't shoot each other, criminals shoot each other.
> 
> We have over 600 million guns in private hands, and over 19.4 million people have permits to carry guns for self defense....... over 320 million people in the country...
> 
> 
> 
> Accidental gun deaths?
> 
> In 2018, 458 accidental gun deaths....you moron.
> 
> Meanwhile, Americans use their legal guns 1.1 million times a year to save lives....from rape, robbery and murder according to the Centers for Disease Control.....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Who is confining it to accidental gun deaths?
> 
> It is also the half wit uncle who shoots a neighbour in a rage or domestic gun violence or crimes that in other nations are not violent but in the USA involve guns.
> 
> For instance the UK has recently seen a wave of knife crime, had they the access to guns the US has the death toll would be horrendous, like the US.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah......doesn't happen.....the majority of all gun murder in the United States is criminals murdering other criminals, and of the rest, the majority is friends and family of the criminals caught in the crossfire......
> 
> As my post showed you.....More Americans now own and actually carry guns and our gun crime  and gu murder rates went down....which means you don't know what you are talking about.
Click to expand...



The are countries with comparable crime rates per population but much lower gun deaths.

It is a simple matter of supply and demand.


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## Bulletbob

2aguy said:


> Another article on gun crime in Australia .......
> 
> *More than 14 hardened criminals are being found in possession of firearms each week as the state grapples with a rising gun culture that has led to twice as many Victorians shot dead in 2019.*
> 
> *The Age can reveal 52 people were shot and 14 fatally gunned down across the state last year, twice as many as the previous 12 months, with handguns increasingly used by criminals to settle drug debts or underworld disputes.*
> 
> *During the past 24 hours lives were threatened in two separate gun crimes in Melbourne's north after a shot was fired as a Hadfield supermarket owner wrestled a gun from the hand of a robber and armed bandits reportedly stormed a Westmeadows tavern eight kilometres away.
> -----*
> 
> *Anti-gangs division Detective Superintendent Peter Brigham said illegal firearms were routinely unearthed at the homes of drug traffickers and in the possession of “gangster types” chasing image and status.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Gun violence grips Victoria as deadly shootings double
> 
> 
> More than 14 hardened criminals are being found in possession of firearms each week as the state grapples with a rising gun culture that has led to a 50 per cent spike in the number of Victorian's gunned down in 2019.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.theage.com.au
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Quick question......are "Assault rifles," banned in Australia now?
> 
> How about grenades....you know...grenades?
> 
> *n September, a 35-year-old Docklands man was sentenced to at least eight years' jail for heroin trafficking. As part of his plea deal, the former Iraqi national led police to a cache of weapons wrapped in plastic and hidden in a Melbourne drain. They included an SKS assault rifle and grenades.*
> 
> *See...the problem?  Australia seems to have forgotten to ban high powered military rifles for criminals........perhaps they should pass more gun control laws.....*
> 
> *And while handguns were proving to be the gun of choice among young men, high powered military-grade firearms were in demand from the city’s outlaw motorcycle gangs.*


because Australia has no clue what its doing


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## Crepitus

2aguy said:


> Another article on gun crime in Australia .......
> 
> *More than 14 hardened criminals are being found in possession of firearms each week as the state grapples with a rising gun culture that has led to twice as many Victorians shot dead in 2019.*
> 
> *The Age can reveal 52 people were shot and 14 fatally gunned down across the state last year, twice as many as the previous 12 months, with handguns increasingly used by criminals to settle drug debts or underworld disputes.*
> 
> *During the past 24 hours lives were threatened in two separate gun crimes in Melbourne's north after a shot was fired as a Hadfield supermarket owner wrestled a gun from the hand of a robber and armed bandits reportedly stormed a Westmeadows tavern eight kilometres away.
> -----*
> 
> *Anti-gangs division Detective Superintendent Peter Brigham said illegal firearms were routinely unearthed at the homes of drug traffickers and in the possession of “gangster types” chasing image and status.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Gun violence grips Victoria as deadly shootings double
> 
> 
> More than 14 hardened criminals are being found in possession of firearms each week as the state grapples with a rising gun culture that has led to a 50 per cent spike in the number of Victorian's gunned down in 2019.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.theage.com.au
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Quick question......are "Assault rifles," banned in Australia now?
> 
> How about grenades....you know...grenades?
> 
> *n September, a 35-year-old Docklands man was sentenced to at least eight years' jail for heroin trafficking. As part of his plea deal, the former Iraqi national led police to a cache of weapons wrapped in plastic and hidden in a Melbourne drain. They included an SKS assault rifle and grenades.*
> 
> *See...the problem?  Australia seems to have forgotten to ban high powered military rifles for criminals........perhaps they should pass more gun control laws.....*
> 
> *And while handguns were proving to be the gun of choice among young men, high powered military-grade firearms were in demand from the city’s outlaw motorcycle gangs.*


52 people were shot last year?  That's what you call out of control gun crime?

What do you call 30,000 people shot last year?


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## Turtlesoup

Jake Winker Frogen said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jake Winker Frogen said:
> 
> 
> 
> Americans shoot each other like they are playing frisbee.
> 
> America has more accidental gun deaths than any democratic country on Earth, you kill your kids and friends and uncles and neighbours like serial killers in a bad B movie.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No, Americans don't shoot each other, criminals shoot each other.
> 
> We have over 600 million guns in private hands, and over 19.4 million people have permits to carry guns for self defense....... over 320 million people in the country...
> 
> 
> 
> Accidental gun deaths?
> 
> In 2018, 458 accidental gun deaths....you moron.
> 
> Meanwhile, Americans use their legal guns 1.1 million times a year to save lives....from rape, robbery and murder according to the Centers for Disease Control.....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Who is confining it to accidental gun deaths?
> 
> It is also the half wit uncle who shoots a neighbour in a rage or domestic gun violence or crimes that in other nations are not violent but in the USA involve guns.
> 
> For instance the UK has recently seen a wave of knife crime, had they the access to guns the US has the death toll would be horrendous, like the US.
Click to expand...



I'd shoot someone coming after me with a knife neighbor or no neighbor.     See how this works?


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## 2aguy

Crepitus said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Another article on gun crime in Australia .......
> 
> *More than 14 hardened criminals are being found in possession of firearms each week as the state grapples with a rising gun culture that has led to twice as many Victorians shot dead in 2019.*
> 
> *The Age can reveal 52 people were shot and 14 fatally gunned down across the state last year, twice as many as the previous 12 months, with handguns increasingly used by criminals to settle drug debts or underworld disputes.*
> 
> *During the past 24 hours lives were threatened in two separate gun crimes in Melbourne's north after a shot was fired as a Hadfield supermarket owner wrestled a gun from the hand of a robber and armed bandits reportedly stormed a Westmeadows tavern eight kilometres away.
> -----*
> 
> *Anti-gangs division Detective Superintendent Peter Brigham said illegal firearms were routinely unearthed at the homes of drug traffickers and in the possession of “gangster types” chasing image and status.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Gun violence grips Victoria as deadly shootings double
> 
> 
> More than 14 hardened criminals are being found in possession of firearms each week as the state grapples with a rising gun culture that has led to a 50 per cent spike in the number of Victorian's gunned down in 2019.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.theage.com.au
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Quick question......are "Assault rifles," banned in Australia now?
> 
> How about grenades....you know...grenades?
> 
> *n September, a 35-year-old Docklands man was sentenced to at least eight years' jail for heroin trafficking. As part of his plea deal, the former Iraqi national led police to a cache of weapons wrapped in plastic and hidden in a Melbourne drain. They included an SKS assault rifle and grenades.*
> 
> *See...the problem?  Australia seems to have forgotten to ban high powered military rifles for criminals........perhaps they should pass more gun control laws.....*
> 
> *And while handguns were proving to be the gun of choice among young men, high powered military-grade firearms were in demand from the city’s outlaw motorcycle gangs.*
> 
> 
> 
> 52 people were shot last year?  That's what you call out of control gun crime?
> 
> What do you call 30,000 people shot last year?
Click to expand...



And you lie...of those 30,000, 23,000 were suicides.....in 2019 there were 10,258 gun murders in the U.S.....70-80% of the victims were criminals engaged in crime.....of the rest, the majority of them are friends and family of criminals caught in the crossfire....

Meanwhile....Americans use their legal guns 1.1 million times a year to stop rapes, robberies and murders....according to the Centers for Disease Control...

Australia has a gun murder rate because their criminals choose not to commit murder...they have guns, they just don't use them to murder each other in large numbers...but that is changing...their drug gangs are being taken over by 3rd world males, who don't care about Australian laws or culture....


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## Crepitus

2aguy said:


> Crepitus said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Another article on gun crime in Australia .......
> 
> *More than 14 hardened criminals are being found in possession of firearms each week as the state grapples with a rising gun culture that has led to twice as many Victorians shot dead in 2019.*
> 
> *The Age can reveal 52 people were shot and 14 fatally gunned down across the state last year, twice as many as the previous 12 months, with handguns increasingly used by criminals to settle drug debts or underworld disputes.*
> 
> *During the past 24 hours lives were threatened in two separate gun crimes in Melbourne's north after a shot was fired as a Hadfield supermarket owner wrestled a gun from the hand of a robber and armed bandits reportedly stormed a Westmeadows tavern eight kilometres away.
> -----*
> 
> *Anti-gangs division Detective Superintendent Peter Brigham said illegal firearms were routinely unearthed at the homes of drug traffickers and in the possession of “gangster types” chasing image and status.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Gun violence grips Victoria as deadly shootings double
> 
> 
> More than 14 hardened criminals are being found in possession of firearms each week as the state grapples with a rising gun culture that has led to a 50 per cent spike in the number of Victorian's gunned down in 2019.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.theage.com.au
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Quick question......are "Assault rifles," banned in Australia now?
> 
> How about grenades....you know...grenades?
> 
> *n September, a 35-year-old Docklands man was sentenced to at least eight years' jail for heroin trafficking. As part of his plea deal, the former Iraqi national led police to a cache of weapons wrapped in plastic and hidden in a Melbourne drain. They included an SKS assault rifle and grenades.*
> 
> *See...the problem?  Australia seems to have forgotten to ban high powered military rifles for criminals........perhaps they should pass more gun control laws.....*
> 
> *And while handguns were proving to be the gun of choice among young men, high powered military-grade firearms were in demand from the city’s outlaw motorcycle gangs.*
> 
> 
> 
> 52 people were shot last year?  That's what you call out of control gun crime?
> 
> What do you call 30,000 people shot last year?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> And you lie...of those 30,000, 23,000 were suicides.....in 2019 there were 10,258 gun murders in the U.S.....70-80% of the victims were criminals engaged in crime.....of the rest, the majority of them are friends and family of criminals caught in the crossfire....
> 
> Meanwhile....Americans use their legal guns 1.1 million times a year to stop rapes, robberies and murders....according to the Centers for Disease Control...
> 
> Australia has a gun murder rate because their criminals choose not to commit murder...they have guns, they just don't use them to murder each other in large numbers...but that is changing...their drug gangs are being taken over by 3rd world males, who don't care about Australian laws or culture....
Click to expand...

Link those stats.

Not from breightbart.


----------



## Jake Winker Frogen

Turtlesoup said:


> Jake Winker Frogen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jake Winker Frogen said:
> 
> 
> 
> Americans shoot each other like they are playing frisbee.
> 
> America has more accidental gun deaths than any democratic country on Earth, you kill your kids and friends and uncles and neighbours like serial killers in a bad B movie.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No, Americans don't shoot each other, criminals shoot each other.
> 
> We have over 600 million guns in private hands, and over 19.4 million people have permits to carry guns for self defense....... over 320 million people in the country...
> 
> 
> 
> Accidental gun deaths?
> 
> In 2018, 458 accidental gun deaths....you moron.
> 
> Meanwhile, Americans use their legal guns 1.1 million times a year to save lives....from rape, robbery and murder according to the Centers for Disease Control.....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Who is confining it to accidental gun deaths?
> 
> It is also the half wit uncle who shoots a neighbour in a rage or domestic gun violence or crimes that in other nations are not violent but in the USA involve guns.
> 
> For instance the UK has recently seen a wave of knife crime, had they the access to guns the US has the death toll would be horrendous, like the US.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> I'd shoot someone coming after me with a knife neighbor or no neighbor.     See how this works?
Click to expand...


Yeah you are probably the kind of Yank who shoots a kid for hitting his car with a frisbee too.


----------



## 2aguy

Crepitus said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Crepitus said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Another article on gun crime in Australia .......
> 
> *More than 14 hardened criminals are being found in possession of firearms each week as the state grapples with a rising gun culture that has led to twice as many Victorians shot dead in 2019.*
> 
> *The Age can reveal 52 people were shot and 14 fatally gunned down across the state last year, twice as many as the previous 12 months, with handguns increasingly used by criminals to settle drug debts or underworld disputes.*
> 
> *During the past 24 hours lives were threatened in two separate gun crimes in Melbourne's north after a shot was fired as a Hadfield supermarket owner wrestled a gun from the hand of a robber and armed bandits reportedly stormed a Westmeadows tavern eight kilometres away.
> -----*
> 
> *Anti-gangs division Detective Superintendent Peter Brigham said illegal firearms were routinely unearthed at the homes of drug traffickers and in the possession of “gangster types” chasing image and status.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Gun violence grips Victoria as deadly shootings double
> 
> 
> More than 14 hardened criminals are being found in possession of firearms each week as the state grapples with a rising gun culture that has led to a 50 per cent spike in the number of Victorian's gunned down in 2019.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.theage.com.au
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Quick question......are "Assault rifles," banned in Australia now?
> 
> How about grenades....you know...grenades?
> 
> *n September, a 35-year-old Docklands man was sentenced to at least eight years' jail for heroin trafficking. As part of his plea deal, the former Iraqi national led police to a cache of weapons wrapped in plastic and hidden in a Melbourne drain. They included an SKS assault rifle and grenades.*
> 
> *See...the problem?  Australia seems to have forgotten to ban high powered military rifles for criminals........perhaps they should pass more gun control laws.....*
> 
> *And while handguns were proving to be the gun of choice among young men, high powered military-grade firearms were in demand from the city’s outlaw motorcycle gangs.*
> 
> 
> 
> 52 people were shot last year?  That's what you call out of control gun crime?
> 
> What do you call 30,000 people shot last year?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> And you lie...of those 30,000, 23,000 were suicides.....in 2019 there were 10,258 gun murders in the U.S.....70-80% of the victims were criminals engaged in crime.....of the rest, the majority of them are friends and family of criminals caught in the crossfire....
> 
> Meanwhile....Americans use their legal guns 1.1 million times a year to stop rapes, robberies and murders....according to the Centers for Disease Control...
> 
> Australia has a gun murder rate because their criminals choose not to commit murder...they have guns, they just don't use them to murder each other in large numbers...but that is changing...their drug gangs are being taken over by 3rd world males, who don't care about Australian laws or culture....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Link those stats.
> 
> Not from breightbart.
Click to expand...


Gun suicides.... 24,432 (2018)



			Broker Version 9.4 (Build 1366)
		


Gun murder... 2018 ( 10,445)....2019 ( 10,258)









						Expanded Homicide Data Table 8
					





					ucr.fbi.gov
				





1.1 million defensive gun uses.....

What Do CDC's Surveys Say About the Frequency of Defensive Gun Uses? by Gary Kleck :: SSRN



70-80% of gun murder victims...

Most murder victims in big cities have criminal record

A review of murder statistics across America shows that in many large cities, up to 90 percent of the _victims_ have criminal records.
======================
The report concludes that “of the 2011 homicide victims, 77 percent (66) had a least one prior arrest and of the known 2011 homicide suspects 90 percent (74) had at least one prior arrest.”
----------
In early 2012, after pressure put on the police by murder victims’ families in New Orleans, the police department stopped revealing whether or not the murder victim had a prior record.
---------------
Though data is no longer published in Baltimore, USA Today reported in 2007 that 91 percent of the then-205 murder victims in the city between Jan. 1 and Aug. 31, 2007, had criminal records.
=====
http://www.law.harvard.edu/students/orgs/jlpp/Vol30_No2_KatesMauseronline.pdf

I. VIOLENCE: THE DECISIVENESS OF SOCIAL FACTORS 

One reason the extent of gun ownership in a society does not spur the murder rate is that murderers are not spread evenly throughout the population. Analysis of perpetrator studies shows that violent criminals—especially murderers—“almost  uniformly have a long history of involvement in criminal behav‐ ior.”37 So it would not appreciably raise violence if all law‐ abiding, responsible people had firearms because they are not the ones who rape, rob, or murder.38 By the same token, violent crime would not fall if guns were totally banned to civilians. As the respective examples of Luxembourg and Russia suggest,39 individuals who commit violent crimes will either find guns despite severe controls or will find other weapons to use. 40 

--------------------------




III. DO ORDINARY PEOPLE MURDER?

The “more guns equal more death” mantra seems plausible only when viewed through the rubric that murders mostly in‐ volve ordinary people who kill because they have access to a firearm when they get angry. If this were true, murder might well increase where people have ready access to firearms, but the available data provides no such correlation. Nations and


areas with more guns per capita do not have higher murder rates than those with fewer guns per capita.53

Nevertheless, critics of gun ownership often argue that a “gun in the closet to protect against burglars will most likely be used to shoot a spouse in a moment of rage . . . . The problem is you and me—law‐abiding folks;”54 that banning handgun posses‐ sion only for those with criminal records will “fail to protect us from the most likely source of handgun murder: ordinary citi‐ zens;”55 that “most gun‐related homicides . . . are the result of impulsive actions taken by individuals who have little or no criminal background or who are known to the victims;”56 that “the majority of firearm homicide[s occur] . . . not as the result of criminal activity, but because of arguments between people who know each other;”57 that each year there are thousands of gun murders “by law‐abiding citizens who might have stayed law‐abiding if they had not possessed firearms.”58

*These comments appear to rest on no evidence and actually con‐ tradict facts that have so uniformly been established by homicide studies dating back to the 1890s that they have become “crimino‐ logical axioms.”59 Insofar as studies focus on perpetrators, they show that neither a majority, nor many, nor virtually any murder‐ ers are ordinary “law‐abiding citizens.”*60 

*Rather, almost all mur‐ derers are extremely aberrant individuals with life histories of violence, psychopathology, substance abuse, and other dangerous behaviors. “The vast majority of persons involved in life‐ threatening violence have a long criminal record with many prior contacts with the justice system.”61 “Thus homicide—[whether] of a*

stranger or [of] someone known to the offender—‘is usually part of a pattern of violence, engaged in by people who are known . . . as violence prone.’”62 

*Though only 15% of Americans over the age of 15 have arrest records,63 approximately 90 percent of “adult mur‐ derers have adult records, with an average adult criminal career [involving crimes committed as an adult rather than a child] of six or more years, including four major adult felony arrests.”64 *

These national statistics dovetail with data from local nineteenth and twentieth century studies. For example: victims as well as offenders [in 1950s and 1960s Philadelphia murders] . . . tended to be people with prior police records, usually for violent crimes such as as‐ sault.”65 


“The great majority of both perpetrators and victims of [1970s Harlem] assaults and murders had previous [adult] arrests, probably over 80% or more.”66 Boston police and probation officers in the 1990s agreed that of those juvenile‐perpetrated murders where all the facts were known, virtually all were committed by gang members, though the killing was not necessarily gang‐ directed. 67 One example would be a gang member who stabs his girlfriend to death in a fit of anger.68 Regardless of their arrests for other crimes, 80% of 1997 Atlanta murder arrestees had at least one earlier drug offense with 70% having 3 or more prior drug of‐ fenses.69 

*A New York Times study of the 1,662 murders committed in that city in the years 2003–2005 found that “[m]ore than 90 percent of the killers had criminal records.”70 Baltimore police figures show that “92 percent of murder suspects had [prior] criminal records in 2006.”71 Several of the more recent homicide studies just reviewed *


***

Baltimore...

2017 homicide data provide insight into Baltimore's gun wars, police say

About 86 percent of the victims and 85 percent of the 118 suspects identified by police had prior criminal records. And about 46 percent of victims and 44 percent of suspects had previously been arrested for gun crimes, the data show.

----

The average homicide victim in Baltimore in 2017 had 11 previous arrests on his record. About 73 percent had drug arrests, and nearly 50 percent had been arrested for a violent crime. About 30 percent were on parole or probation at the time they were killed, and more than 6 percent were on parole or probation for a gun crime.

Chicago...

Gang Killers In Chicago Used Christmas Gatherings To Target Their Victims

Gang killers, knowing their targets would be home for Christmas, launched a bloody weekend of shootings in Chicago that left 11 dead and another 37 wounded.

"We now know that the majority of these shootings and homicides were targeted attacks by gangs against potential rivals who were at holiday gatherings. This was followed by several acts of retaliatory gun violence," police spokesman Anthony Guglielmi said in a statement Monday.

--------------
*The violence primarily occurred in areas with historical gang conflicts on the South and West Side of Chicago."*



*"Ninety percent of those fatally wounded had gang affiliations, criminal histories and were pre-identified by the department's strategic subject algorithm as being a potential suspect or victim of gun violence," Guglielmi said.*
======

Chicago police boss calls weekend gun violence 'completely unacceptable'

At an unrelated news conference Monday on the city's Southwest Side, Johnson brought up the Mother's Day weekend violence himself in his prepared remarks. He focused his remarks on how much of the bloodshed is being driven by about 1,300 individuals on the Police Department's "strategic subject list" — those believed to be most prone to violence as a victim or offender.

*About 78 percent of the homicide victims and about 84 percent of the nonfatal shooting victims this weekend were on the list, he said.*

"That means essentially we know who they are," he told reporters at 50th Street and South Karlov Avenue, where a Chicago police officer fatally shot a bank robbery suspect on Monday. "Oftentimes, they have gang affiliations, and many have had previous arrests and convictions."
----------
H*e then ticked off nearly 10 examples of how many arrests these victims had on their records, ranging from 20 each all the way up to 41.*


====

Milwaukee...
PolitiFact - 85 percent of shooting suspects and victims in Milwaukee have "extensive criminal record," police chief says
Non-fatal shootings:

In non-fatal shootings in 2011, 97 percent of the 177 suspects and 86 percent of the 473 victims had at least one prior arrest. The report doesn’t say how many.

However, O’Brien said a closer analysis of non-fatal shootings during a six-week period in July and August 2011, when non-fatal shootings increased, found that suspects had an average of 7.5 prior arrests and victims had an average of about six. O’Brien said that based on her past studies, she would expect that the rest of the suspects and victims in the non-fatal shootings in 2011 had a similar number of prior arrests.

So, more than 85 percent of the people involved in non-fatal shootings had at least one prior arrest. And there’s a strong indication, though not complete numbers, that most people involved in the non-fatal shootings had at least several prior arrests.


----------



## 2aguy

Crepitus said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Crepitus said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Another article on gun crime in Australia .......
> 
> *More than 14 hardened criminals are being found in possession of firearms each week as the state grapples with a rising gun culture that has led to twice as many Victorians shot dead in 2019.*
> 
> *The Age can reveal 52 people were shot and 14 fatally gunned down across the state last year, twice as many as the previous 12 months, with handguns increasingly used by criminals to settle drug debts or underworld disputes.*
> 
> *During the past 24 hours lives were threatened in two separate gun crimes in Melbourne's north after a shot was fired as a Hadfield supermarket owner wrestled a gun from the hand of a robber and armed bandits reportedly stormed a Westmeadows tavern eight kilometres away.
> -----*
> 
> *Anti-gangs division Detective Superintendent Peter Brigham said illegal firearms were routinely unearthed at the homes of drug traffickers and in the possession of “gangster types” chasing image and status.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Gun violence grips Victoria as deadly shootings double
> 
> 
> More than 14 hardened criminals are being found in possession of firearms each week as the state grapples with a rising gun culture that has led to a 50 per cent spike in the number of Victorian's gunned down in 2019.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.theage.com.au
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Quick question......are "Assault rifles," banned in Australia now?
> 
> How about grenades....you know...grenades?
> 
> *n September, a 35-year-old Docklands man was sentenced to at least eight years' jail for heroin trafficking. As part of his plea deal, the former Iraqi national led police to a cache of weapons wrapped in plastic and hidden in a Melbourne drain. They included an SKS assault rifle and grenades.*
> 
> *See...the problem?  Australia seems to have forgotten to ban high powered military rifles for criminals........perhaps they should pass more gun control laws.....*
> 
> *And while handguns were proving to be the gun of choice among young men, high powered military-grade firearms were in demand from the city’s outlaw motorcycle gangs.*
> 
> 
> 
> 52 people were shot last year?  That's what you call out of control gun crime?
> 
> What do you call 30,000 people shot last year?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> And you lie...of those 30,000, 23,000 were suicides.....in 2019 there were 10,258 gun murders in the U.S.....70-80% of the victims were criminals engaged in crime.....of the rest, the majority of them are friends and family of criminals caught in the crossfire....
> 
> Meanwhile....Americans use their legal guns 1.1 million times a year to stop rapes, robberies and murders....according to the Centers for Disease Control...
> 
> Australia has a gun murder rate because their criminals choose not to commit murder...they have guns, they just don't use them to murder each other in large numbers...but that is changing...their drug gangs are being taken over by 3rd world males, who don't care about Australian laws or culture....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Link those stats.
> 
> Not from breightbart.
Click to expand...



You doofus...........

CDC, FBI, and other research groups...you moron....


----------



## Dr Grump

Australia doesn't have a gun problem.


----------



## 2aguy

Dr Grump said:


> Australia doesn't have a gun problem.




Yes....they do....

https://www.theage.com.au/national/victoria/gun-violence-grips-melbourne-20200212-p5402v.html

More than 14 hardened criminals are being found in possession of firearms each week as the state grapples with a rising gun culture that has led to twice as many Victorians shot dead in 2019.
------
Anti-gangs division Detective Superintendent Peter Brigham said illegal firearms were routinely unearthed at the homes of drug traffickers and in the possession of “gangster types” chasing image and status.
----
In September, a 35-year-old Docklands man was sentenced to at least eight years' jail for heroin trafficking. As part of his plea deal, the former Iraqi national led police to a cache of weapons wrapped in plastic and hidden in a Melbourne drain. They included an SKS assault rifle and grenades.
---
And while handguns were proving to be the gun of choice among young men, high powered military-grade firearms were in demand from the city’s outlaw motorcycle gangs
======

Gun city: Young, dumb and armed

*The notion that a military-grade weapon could be in the hands of local criminals is shocking, but police have already seized at least five machine guns and assault rifles in the past 18 months. The AK-47 was not among them.*

Only a fortnight ago, law enforcement authorities announced they were hunting another seven assault rifles recently smuggled into the country. Weapons from the shipment have been used in armed robberies and drive-by shootings.

*These are just a handful of the thousands of illicit guns fuelling a wave of violent crime in the world’s most liveable city.

----*

Despite Australia’s strict gun control regime, criminals are now better armed than at any time since then-Prime Minister John Howard introduced a nationwide firearm buyback scheme in response to the 1996 Port Arthur massacre.

Shootings have become almost a weekly occurrence, with more than 125 people, mostly young men, wounded in the past five year

-----------

While the body count was higher during Melbourne’s ‘Underbelly War’ (1999-2005), more people have been seriously maimed in the recent spate of shootings and reprisals.

*Crimes associated with firearm possession have also more than doubled, driven by the easy availability of handguns, semi-automatic rifles, shotguns and, increasingly, machine guns, that are smuggled into the country or stolen from licensed owners.

-------------*

These weapons have been used in dozens of recent drive-by shootings of homes and businesses, as well as targeted and random attacks in parks, shopping centres and roads.

“They’re young, dumb and armed,” said one former underworld associate, who survived a shooting attempt in the western suburbs several years ago.

“It used to be that if you were involved in something bad you might have to worry about [being shot]. Now people get shot over nothing - unprovoked.”

------------

*Gun crime soars*
In this series, Fairfax Media looks at Melbourne’s gun problem and the new breed of criminals behind the escalating violence.

The investigation has found:


There have been at least 99 shootings in the past 20 months - more than one incident a week since January 2015
Known criminals were caught with firearms 755 times last year, compared to 143 times in 2011
The epicentre of the problem is a triangle between Coolaroo, Campbellfield and Glenroy in the north-west, with Cranbourne, Narre Warren and Dandenong in the south-east close behind
Criminals are using gunshot wounds to the arms and legs as warnings to pay debts
*Assault rifles and handguns are being smuggled into Australia via shipments of electronics and metal parts*
In response to the violence, it can be revealed the state government is planning to introduce new criminal offences for drive-by shootings, manufacturing of firearms with new technologies such as 3D printers, and more police powers to keep weapons out of the hands of known criminals.

============

The second part of the series....

http://www.theage.com.au/interactive/2016/gun-city/day2.html


========================
'Thousands' of illegal guns tipped to be handed over in firearms amnesty

Asked roughly how many he expected to be handed in, Mr Keenan said: "Look I certainly think the number will be in the thousands."

The Australian Crime Commission estimated in 2012 there were at least 250,000 illegal guns in Australia. But a Senate report noted last year it was impossible to estimate how many illicit weapons are out there.

*And despite Australia's strict border controls, the smuggling of high-powered military-style firearms is also a growing problem.*


----------



## Turtlesoup

Jake Winker Frogen said:


> Turtlesoup said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jake Winker Frogen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jake Winker Frogen said:
> 
> 
> 
> Americans shoot each other like they are playing frisbee.
> 
> America has more accidental gun deaths than any democratic country on Earth, you kill your kids and friends and uncles and neighbours like serial killers in a bad B movie.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No, Americans don't shoot each other, criminals shoot each other.
> 
> We have over 600 million guns in private hands, and over 19.4 million people have permits to carry guns for self defense....... over 320 million people in the country...
> 
> 
> 
> Accidental gun deaths?
> 
> In 2018, 458 accidental gun deaths....you moron.
> 
> Meanwhile, Americans use their legal guns 1.1 million times a year to save lives....from rape, robbery and murder according to the Centers for Disease Control.....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Who is confining it to accidental gun deaths?
> 
> It is also the half wit uncle who shoots a neighbour in a rage or domestic gun violence or crimes that in other nations are not violent but in the USA involve guns.
> 
> For instance the UK has recently seen a wave of knife crime, had they the access to guns the US has the death toll would be horrendous, like the US.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> I'd shoot someone coming after me with a knife neighbor or no neighbor.     See how this works?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yeah you are probably the kind of Yank who shoots a kid for hitting his car with a frisbee too.
Click to expand...



Actually, I am a southerner--Texan more specifically originally.   "Yank" is kinda an insult given that southerners used to call northerners yanks/yankees. 

This said you really can't tell the moral difference between someone with a knife coming after you and some random kid with a frisbee?  Really?   No wonder they don't allow the brits whatever you are to play with guns.   We don't allow children or the mental ill here to have them either.

I am actually a woman---raised on a small farm but never thought of guns being that important till two guys (one may have been a woman)  with long hair in a white van tried to grab me off the streets of Vegas in broad daylight.   I'd seen them around for a few days as I quickly walked home from Binion's Casino where I worked, but I didn't see them that day till it was too late as they came up behind me with the van door open trying to grab me.   The two guys in a truck behind them saw them and  chased them off though.  Within 3 days, I had purchased a new hand gun.....even till this day, I wish I had it and shot them because I am pretty sure that they had other victims who weren't as lucky as I was.


----------



## 2aguy

Crepitus said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Crepitus said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Another article on gun crime in Australia .......
> 
> *More than 14 hardened criminals are being found in possession of firearms each week as the state grapples with a rising gun culture that has led to twice as many Victorians shot dead in 2019.*
> 
> *The Age can reveal 52 people were shot and 14 fatally gunned down across the state last year, twice as many as the previous 12 months, with handguns increasingly used by criminals to settle drug debts or underworld disputes.*
> 
> *During the past 24 hours lives were threatened in two separate gun crimes in Melbourne's north after a shot was fired as a Hadfield supermarket owner wrestled a gun from the hand of a robber and armed bandits reportedly stormed a Westmeadows tavern eight kilometres away.
> -----*
> 
> *Anti-gangs division Detective Superintendent Peter Brigham said illegal firearms were routinely unearthed at the homes of drug traffickers and in the possession of “gangster types” chasing image and status.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Gun violence grips Victoria as deadly shootings double
> 
> 
> More than 14 hardened criminals are being found in possession of firearms each week as the state grapples with a rising gun culture that has led to a 50 per cent spike in the number of Victorian's gunned down in 2019.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.theage.com.au
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Quick question......are "Assault rifles," banned in Australia now?
> 
> How about grenades....you know...grenades?
> 
> *n September, a 35-year-old Docklands man was sentenced to at least eight years' jail for heroin trafficking. As part of his plea deal, the former Iraqi national led police to a cache of weapons wrapped in plastic and hidden in a Melbourne drain. They included an SKS assault rifle and grenades.*
> 
> *See...the problem?  Australia seems to have forgotten to ban high powered military rifles for criminals........perhaps they should pass more gun control laws.....*
> 
> *And while handguns were proving to be the gun of choice among young men, high powered military-grade firearms were in demand from the city’s outlaw motorcycle gangs.*
> 
> 
> 
> 52 people were shot last year?  That's what you call out of control gun crime?
> 
> What do you call 30,000 people shot last year?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> And you lie...of those 30,000, 23,000 were suicides.....in 2019 there were 10,258 gun murders in the U.S.....70-80% of the victims were criminals engaged in crime.....of the rest, the majority of them are friends and family of criminals caught in the crossfire....
> 
> Meanwhile....Americans use their legal guns 1.1 million times a year to stop rapes, robberies and murders....according to the Centers for Disease Control...
> 
> Australia has a gun murder rate because their criminals choose not to commit murder...they have guns, they just don't use them to murder each other in large numbers...but that is changing...their drug gangs are being taken over by 3rd world males, who don't care about Australian laws or culture....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Link those stats.
> 
> Not from breightbart.
Click to expand...



More....

*According to a 1993 article in the Journal of Trauma, 80 percent of murders in Washington, D.C., are related to the drug trade, while "84% of [Philadelphia murder] victims in 1990 had antemortem drug use or criminal history."** A 1994 article in The New England Journal of Medicine reported that 71 percent of Los Angeles children and adolescents injured in drive-by shootings "were documented members of violent street gangs." And University of North Carolina-Charlotte criminal justice scholars Richard Lumb and Paul C. Friday report that 71 percent of adult gunshot wound victims in Charlotte have criminal records.*









						Public Health Pot Shots
					

How the CDC succumbed to the Gun "Epidemic"




					reason.com


----------



## Jake Winker Frogen

Turtlesoup said:


> Jake Winker Frogen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Turtlesoup said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jake Winker Frogen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jake Winker Frogen said:
> 
> 
> 
> Americans shoot each other like they are playing frisbee.
> 
> America has more accidental gun deaths than any democratic country on Earth, you kill your kids and friends and uncles and neighbours like serial killers in a bad B movie.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No, Americans don't shoot each other, criminals shoot each other.
> 
> We have over 600 million guns in private hands, and over 19.4 million people have permits to carry guns for self defense....... over 320 million people in the country...
> 
> 
> 
> Accidental gun deaths?
> 
> In 2018, 458 accidental gun deaths....you moron.
> 
> Meanwhile, Americans use their legal guns 1.1 million times a year to save lives....from rape, robbery and murder according to the Centers for Disease Control.....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Who is confining it to accidental gun deaths?
> 
> It is also the half wit uncle who shoots a neighbour in a rage or domestic gun violence or crimes that in other nations are not violent but in the USA involve guns.
> 
> For instance the UK has recently seen a wave of knife crime, had they the access to guns the US has the death toll would be horrendous, like the US.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> I'd shoot someone coming after me with a knife neighbor or no neighbor.     See how this works?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yeah you are probably the kind of Yank who shoots a kid for hitting his car with a frisbee too.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Actually, I am a southerner--Texan more specifically originally.   "Yank" is kinda an insult given that southerners used to call northerners yanks/yankees.
> 
> This said you really can't tell the moral difference between someone with a knife coming after you and some random kid with a frisbee?  Really?   No wonder they don't allow the brits whatever you are to play with guns.   We don't allow children or the mental ill here to have them either.
> 
> I am actually a woman---raised on a small farm but never thought of guns being that important till two guys (one may have been a woman)  with long hair in a white van tried to grab me off the streets of Vegas in broad daylight.   I'd seen them around for a few days as I quickly walked home from Binion's Casino where I worked, but I didn't see them that day till it was too late as they came up behind me with the van door open trying to grab me.   The two guys in a truck behind them saw them and  chased them off though.  Within 3 days, I had purchased a new hand gun.....even till this day, I wish I had it and shot them because I am pretty sure that they had other victims who weren't as lucky as I am.
Click to expand...



That is an interesting story, I mean that sincerely. 

Thanks for sharing that.

If I lived in America I would probably have a gun too.

There is just no need for one in Australia.


----------



## 2aguy

Jake Winker Frogen said:


> Turtlesoup said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jake Winker Frogen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Turtlesoup said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jake Winker Frogen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jake Winker Frogen said:
> 
> 
> 
> Americans shoot each other like they are playing frisbee.
> 
> America has more accidental gun deaths than any democratic country on Earth, you kill your kids and friends and uncles and neighbours like serial killers in a bad B movie.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No, Americans don't shoot each other, criminals shoot each other.
> 
> We have over 600 million guns in private hands, and over 19.4 million people have permits to carry guns for self defense....... over 320 million people in the country...
> 
> 
> 
> Accidental gun deaths?
> 
> In 2018, 458 accidental gun deaths....you moron.
> 
> Meanwhile, Americans use their legal guns 1.1 million times a year to save lives....from rape, robbery and murder according to the Centers for Disease Control.....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Who is confining it to accidental gun deaths?
> 
> It is also the half wit uncle who shoots a neighbour in a rage or domestic gun violence or crimes that in other nations are not violent but in the USA involve guns.
> 
> For instance the UK has recently seen a wave of knife crime, had they the access to guns the US has the death toll would be horrendous, like the US.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> I'd shoot someone coming after me with a knife neighbor or no neighbor.     See how this works?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yeah you are probably the kind of Yank who shoots a kid for hitting his car with a frisbee too.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Actually, I am a southerner--Texan more specifically originally.   "Yank" is kinda an insult given that southerners used to call northerners yanks/yankees.
> 
> This said you really can't tell the moral difference between someone with a knife coming after you and some random kid with a frisbee?  Really?   No wonder they don't allow the brits whatever you are to play with guns.   We don't allow children or the mental ill here to have them either.
> 
> I am actually a woman---raised on a small farm but never thought of guns being that important till two guys (one may have been a woman)  with long hair in a white van tried to grab me off the streets of Vegas in broad daylight.   I'd seen them around for a few days as I quickly walked home from Binion's Casino where I worked, but I didn't see them that day till it was too late as they came up behind me with the van door open trying to grab me.   The two guys in a truck behind them saw them and  chased them off though.  Within 3 days, I had purchased a new hand gun.....even till this day, I wish I had it and shot them because I am pretty sure that they had other victims who weren't as lucky as I am.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> That is an interesting story, I mean that sincerely.
> 
> Thanks for sharing that.
> 
> If I lived in America I would probably have a gun too.
> 
> There is just no need for one in Australia.
Click to expand...



Let me fix that for you...

There is just no need for one in Australia......... yet.

As your country is over run by immigrant drug gangs who will increase the violence around their drug turf, and social welfare programs in Australia break down the family, leaving more and more children raised in homes without fathers......you will see why good people need guns...


----------



## Jake Winker Frogen

And I say that is one who worked security for years in the roughest part of the city, with drug issues and physical violence, we even had a machete attack once.

Never once thought "I wish I had a gun."

Though if I were an Aussie bikie I would probably get one.

It just a different society.

I actually defend the Second Amendment to my Aussie friends, they just don't get it.

But America is a far more violent society so it is needed in the USA, I get that.


----------



## 2aguy

Jake Winker Frogen said:


> And I say that is one who worked security for years in the roughest part of the city, with drug issues and physical violence, we even had a machete attack once.
> 
> Never once thought "I wish I had a gun."
> 
> Though if I were an Aussie bikie I would probably get one.
> 
> It just a different society.
> 
> I actually defend the Second Amendment to my Aussie friends, they just don't get it.
> 
> But America is a far more violent society so it is needed in the USA, I get that.




Actually, only tiny areas are violent.....our gun crime is confined to tiny, multi-block areas in cities controlled by our democrat party........the rest of the country is just fine.


----------



## Jake Winker Frogen

2aguy said:


> Jake Winker Frogen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Turtlesoup said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jake Winker Frogen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Turtlesoup said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jake Winker Frogen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jake Winker Frogen said:
> 
> 
> 
> Americans shoot each other like they are playing frisbee.
> 
> America has more accidental gun deaths than any democratic country on Earth, you kill your kids and friends and uncles and neighbours like serial killers in a bad B movie.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No, Americans don't shoot each other, criminals shoot each other.
> 
> We have over 600 million guns in private hands, and over 19.4 million people have permits to carry guns for self defense....... over 320 million people in the country...
> 
> 
> 
> Accidental gun deaths?
> 
> In 2018, 458 accidental gun deaths....you moron.
> 
> Meanwhile, Americans use their legal guns 1.1 million times a year to save lives....from rape, robbery and murder according to the Centers for Disease Control.....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Who is confining it to accidental gun deaths?
> 
> It is also the half wit uncle who shoots a neighbour in a rage or domestic gun violence or crimes that in other nations are not violent but in the USA involve guns.
> 
> For instance the UK has recently seen a wave of knife crime, had they the access to guns the US has the death toll would be horrendous, like the US.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> I'd shoot someone coming after me with a knife neighbor or no neighbor.     See how this works?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yeah you are probably the kind of Yank who shoots a kid for hitting his car with a frisbee too.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Actually, I am a southerner--Texan more specifically originally.   "Yank" is kinda an insult given that southerners used to call northerners yanks/yankees.
> 
> This said you really can't tell the moral difference between someone with a knife coming after you and some random kid with a frisbee?  Really?   No wonder they don't allow the brits whatever you are to play with guns.   We don't allow children or the mental ill here to have them either.
> 
> I am actually a woman---raised on a small farm but never thought of guns being that important till two guys (one may have been a woman)  with long hair in a white van tried to grab me off the streets of Vegas in broad daylight.   I'd seen them around for a few days as I quickly walked home from Binion's Casino where I worked, but I didn't see them that day till it was too late as they came up behind me with the van door open trying to grab me.   The two guys in a truck behind them saw them and  chased them off though.  Within 3 days, I had purchased a new hand gun.....even till this day, I wish I had it and shot them because I am pretty sure that they had other victims who weren't as lucky as I am.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> That is an interesting story, I mean that sincerely.
> 
> Thanks for sharing that.
> 
> If I lived in America I would probably have a gun too.
> 
> There is just no need for one in Australia.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Let me fix that for you...
> 
> There is just no need for one in Australia......... yet.
> 
> As your country is over run by immigrant drug gangs who will increase the violence around their drug turf, and social welfare programs in Australia break down the family, leaving more and more children raised in homes without fathers......you will see why good people need guns...
Click to expand...



It is because our welfare system is more effective than the USA that we do not see the generational family break down the US does, indeed few Western countries do.

We have drugs, but our health system is so superior to the US our addiction rates are much lower, though we need to change our drug policy to one like Portugal, they decriminalised drug use and are the only Western country to see addiction and death rates fall.


----------



## Jake Winker Frogen

Gun deaths are quite high in some non Democratic states as well according to the CDC.






						Stats of the States - Firearm Mortality
					






					www.cdc.gov


----------



## 2aguy

Jake Winker Frogen said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jake Winker Frogen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Turtlesoup said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jake Winker Frogen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Turtlesoup said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jake Winker Frogen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jake Winker Frogen said:
> 
> 
> 
> Americans shoot each other like they are playing frisbee.
> 
> America has more accidental gun deaths than any democratic country on Earth, you kill your kids and friends and uncles and neighbours like serial killers in a bad B movie.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No, Americans don't shoot each other, criminals shoot each other.
> 
> We have over 600 million guns in private hands, and over 19.4 million people have permits to carry guns for self defense....... over 320 million people in the country...
> 
> 
> 
> Accidental gun deaths?
> 
> In 2018, 458 accidental gun deaths....you moron.
> 
> Meanwhile, Americans use their legal guns 1.1 million times a year to save lives....from rape, robbery and murder according to the Centers for Disease Control.....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Who is confining it to accidental gun deaths?
> 
> It is also the half wit uncle who shoots a neighbour in a rage or domestic gun violence or crimes that in other nations are not violent but in the USA involve guns.
> 
> For instance the UK has recently seen a wave of knife crime, had they the access to guns the US has the death toll would be horrendous, like the US.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> I'd shoot someone coming after me with a knife neighbor or no neighbor.     See how this works?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yeah you are probably the kind of Yank who shoots a kid for hitting his car with a frisbee too.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Actually, I am a southerner--Texan more specifically originally.   "Yank" is kinda an insult given that southerners used to call northerners yanks/yankees.
> 
> This said you really can't tell the moral difference between someone with a knife coming after you and some random kid with a frisbee?  Really?   No wonder they don't allow the brits whatever you are to play with guns.   We don't allow children or the mental ill here to have them either.
> 
> I am actually a woman---raised on a small farm but never thought of guns being that important till two guys (one may have been a woman)  with long hair in a white van tried to grab me off the streets of Vegas in broad daylight.   I'd seen them around for a few days as I quickly walked home from Binion's Casino where I worked, but I didn't see them that day till it was too late as they came up behind me with the van door open trying to grab me.   The two guys in a truck behind them saw them and  chased them off though.  Within 3 days, I had purchased a new hand gun.....even till this day, I wish I had it and shot them because I am pretty sure that they had other victims who weren't as lucky as I am.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> That is an interesting story, I mean that sincerely.
> 
> Thanks for sharing that.
> 
> If I lived in America I would probably have a gun too.
> 
> There is just no need for one in Australia.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Let me fix that for you...
> 
> There is just no need for one in Australia......... yet.
> 
> As your country is over run by immigrant drug gangs who will increase the violence around their drug turf, and social welfare programs in Australia break down the family, leaving more and more children raised in homes without fathers......you will see why good people need guns...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> It is because our welfare system is more effective than the USA that we do not see the generational family break down the US does, indeed few Western countries do.
> 
> We have drugs, but our health system is so superior to the US our addiction rates are much lower, though we need to change our drug policy to one like Portugal, they decriminalised drug use and are the only Western country to see addiction and death rates fall.
Click to expand...



I don't think so....you have a tiny population.....and now, with the influx of immigrants from 3rd world countries you will be facing the same problems the U.S. has...

*Since then the system has grown and evolved into a network of 1,700 providers across Australia, with companies competing for public money and the right to triage some 750,000 unemployed people on Newstart into a series of government schemes with questionable outcomes such as Work for the Dole, ParentsNext and the PaTh Program.*









						The nightmare of Australia's welfare system: 'At the push of a button, my working life was erased'
					

Six people recount their interactions with Centrelink and the government’s welfare programs, which range from absurd to frustrating to insulting




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## 2aguy

Jake Winker Frogen said:


> Gun deaths are quite high in some non Democratic states as well according to the CDC.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Stats of the States - Firearm Mortality
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cdc.gov



It isn't the states, it is the cities.....for example.....the Tennessee is a Republican state but the largest cities are under democrat party control.  Dittos Chicago, Baltimore, D.C., St. Louis, New Orleans......


----------



## Dr Grump

2aguy said:


> Yes....they do....


92 Australians died last year due to guns (not including suicides)
The US had 15,000+ deaths. 
Compared to the US, Australia doesn't have a gun problem.


----------



## Jake Winker Frogen

2aguy said:


> Jake Winker Frogen said:
> 
> 
> 
> Gun deaths are quite high in some non Democratic states as well according to the CDC.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Stats of the States - Firearm Mortality
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cdc.gov
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It isn't the states, it is the cities.....for example.....the Tennessee is a Republican state but the largest cities are under democrat party control.  Dittos Chicago, Baltimore, D.C., St. Louis, New Orleans......
Click to expand...



That may be, when I get time I will research who controls what cities and what are the gun death rates.


----------



## Turtlesoup

Jake Winker Frogen said:


> Turtlesoup said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jake Winker Frogen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Turtlesoup said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jake Winker Frogen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jake Winker Frogen said:
> 
> 
> 
> Americans shoot each other like they are playing frisbee.
> 
> America has more accidental gun deaths than any democratic country on Earth, you kill your kids and friends and uncles and neighbours like serial killers in a bad B movie.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No, Americans don't shoot each other, criminals shoot each other.
> 
> We have over 600 million guns in private hands, and over 19.4 million people have permits to carry guns for self defense....... over 320 million people in the country...
> 
> 
> 
> Accidental gun deaths?
> 
> In 2018, 458 accidental gun deaths....you moron.
> 
> Meanwhile, Americans use their legal guns 1.1 million times a year to save lives....from rape, robbery and murder according to the Centers for Disease Control.....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Who is confining it to accidental gun deaths?
> 
> It is also the half wit uncle who shoots a neighbour in a rage or domestic gun violence or crimes that in other nations are not violent but in the USA involve guns.
> 
> For instance the UK has recently seen a wave of knife crime, had they the access to guns the US has the death toll would be horrendous, like the US.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> I'd shoot someone coming after me with a knife neighbor or no neighbor.     See how this works?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yeah you are probably the kind of Yank who shoots a kid for hitting his car with a frisbee too.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Actually, I am a southerner--Texan more specifically originally.   "Yank" is kinda an insult given that southerners used to call northerners yanks/yankees.
> 
> This said you really can't tell the moral difference between someone with a knife coming after you and some random kid with a frisbee?  Really?   No wonder they don't allow the brits whatever you are to play with guns.   We don't allow children or the mental ill here to have them either.
> 
> I am actually a woman---raised on a small farm but never thought of guns being that important till two guys (one may have been a woman)  with long hair in a white van tried to grab me off the streets of Vegas in broad daylight.   I'd seen them around for a few days as I quickly walked home from Binion's Casino where I worked, but I didn't see them that day till it was too late as they came up behind me with the van door open trying to grab me.   The two guys in a truck behind them saw them and  chased them off though.  Within 3 days, I had purchased a new hand gun.....even till this day, I wish I had it and shot them because I am pretty sure that they had other victims who weren't as lucky as I am.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> That is an interesting story, I mean that sincerely.
> 
> Thanks for sharing that.
> 
> If I lived in America I would probably have a gun too.
> 
> There is just no need for one in Australia.
Click to expand...



Given your snake problems--- I couldn't imagine being without one there either.


----------



## Jake Winker Frogen

Dr Grump said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yes....they do....
> 
> 
> 
> 92 Australians died last year due to guns (not including suicides)
> The US had 15,000+ deaths.
> Compared to the US, Australia doesn't have a gun problem.
Click to expand...




Yes, we do not have a gun problem. 

In fact we have not had a mass shooting since Port Arthur.  It was a conservative Prime Minister who tightened gun control after that. Though one can own under licence and certain conditions. 

That is what I have been saying.


----------



## Jake Winker Frogen

Turtlesoup said:


> Jake Winker Frogen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Turtlesoup said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jake Winker Frogen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Turtlesoup said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jake Winker Frogen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jake Winker Frogen said:
> 
> 
> 
> Americans shoot each other like they are playing frisbee.
> 
> America has more accidental gun deaths than any democratic country on Earth, you kill your kids and friends and uncles and neighbours like serial killers in a bad B movie.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No, Americans don't shoot each other, criminals shoot each other.
> 
> We have over 600 million guns in private hands, and over 19.4 million people have permits to carry guns for self defense....... over 320 million people in the country...
> 
> 
> 
> Accidental gun deaths?
> 
> In 2018, 458 accidental gun deaths....you moron.
> 
> Meanwhile, Americans use their legal guns 1.1 million times a year to save lives....from rape, robbery and murder according to the Centers for Disease Control.....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Who is confining it to accidental gun deaths?
> 
> It is also the half wit uncle who shoots a neighbour in a rage or domestic gun violence or crimes that in other nations are not violent but in the USA involve guns.
> 
> For instance the UK has recently seen a wave of knife crime, had they the access to guns the US has the death toll would be horrendous, like the US.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> I'd shoot someone coming after me with a knife neighbor or no neighbor.     See how this works?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yeah you are probably the kind of Yank who shoots a kid for hitting his car with a frisbee too.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Actually, I am a southerner--Texan more specifically originally.   "Yank" is kinda an insult given that southerners used to call northerners yanks/yankees.
> 
> This said you really can't tell the moral difference between someone with a knife coming after you and some random kid with a frisbee?  Really?   No wonder they don't allow the brits whatever you are to play with guns.   We don't allow children or the mental ill here to have them either.
> 
> I am actually a woman---raised on a small farm but never thought of guns being that important till two guys (one may have been a woman)  with long hair in a white van tried to grab me off the streets of Vegas in broad daylight.   I'd seen them around for a few days as I quickly walked home from Binion's Casino where I worked, but I didn't see them that day till it was too late as they came up behind me with the van door open trying to grab me.   The two guys in a truck behind them saw them and  chased them off though.  Within 3 days, I had purchased a new hand gun.....even till this day, I wish I had it and shot them because I am pretty sure that they had other victims who weren't as lucky as I am.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> That is an interesting story, I mean that sincerely.
> 
> Thanks for sharing that.
> 
> If I lived in America I would probably have a gun too.
> 
> There is just no need for one in Australia.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Given your snake problems--- I couldn't imagine being without one there either.
Click to expand...


I have a friend who found a King Brown in his bath room.

Yikes.

But we know how to deal with them without killing them.


----------



## Jake Winker Frogen

2aguy said:


> Jake Winker Frogen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jake Winker Frogen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Turtlesoup said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jake Winker Frogen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Turtlesoup said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jake Winker Frogen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jake Winker Frogen said:
> 
> 
> 
> Americans shoot each other like they are playing frisbee.
> 
> America has more accidental gun deaths than any democratic country on Earth, you kill your kids and friends and uncles and neighbours like serial killers in a bad B movie.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No, Americans don't shoot each other, criminals shoot each other.
> 
> We have over 600 million guns in private hands, and over 19.4 million people have permits to carry guns for self defense....... over 320 million people in the country...
> 
> 
> 
> Accidental gun deaths?
> 
> In 2018, 458 accidental gun deaths....you moron.
> 
> Meanwhile, Americans use their legal guns 1.1 million times a year to save lives....from rape, robbery and murder according to the Centers for Disease Control.....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Who is confining it to accidental gun deaths?
> 
> It is also the half wit uncle who shoots a neighbour in a rage or domestic gun violence or crimes that in other nations are not violent but in the USA involve guns.
> 
> For instance the UK has recently seen a wave of knife crime, had they the access to guns the US has the death toll would be horrendous, like the US.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> I'd shoot someone coming after me with a knife neighbor or no neighbor.     See how this works?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yeah you are probably the kind of Yank who shoots a kid for hitting his car with a frisbee too.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Actually, I am a southerner--Texan more specifically originally.   "Yank" is kinda an insult given that southerners used to call northerners yanks/yankees.
> 
> This said you really can't tell the moral difference between someone with a knife coming after you and some random kid with a frisbee?  Really?   No wonder they don't allow the brits whatever you are to play with guns.   We don't allow children or the mental ill here to have them either.
> 
> I am actually a woman---raised on a small farm but never thought of guns being that important till two guys (one may have been a woman)  with long hair in a white van tried to grab me off the streets of Vegas in broad daylight.   I'd seen them around for a few days as I quickly walked home from Binion's Casino where I worked, but I didn't see them that day till it was too late as they came up behind me with the van door open trying to grab me.   The two guys in a truck behind them saw them and  chased them off though.  Within 3 days, I had purchased a new hand gun.....even till this day, I wish I had it and shot them because I am pretty sure that they had other victims who weren't as lucky as I am.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> That is an interesting story, I mean that sincerely.
> 
> Thanks for sharing that.
> 
> If I lived in America I would probably have a gun too.
> 
> There is just no need for one in Australia.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Let me fix that for you...
> 
> There is just no need for one in Australia......... yet.
> 
> As your country is over run by immigrant drug gangs who will increase the violence around their drug turf, and social welfare programs in Australia break down the family, leaving more and more children raised in homes without fathers......you will see why good people need guns...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> It is because our welfare system is more effective than the USA that we do not see the generational family break down the US does, indeed few Western countries do.
> 
> We have drugs, but our health system is so superior to the US our addiction rates are much lower, though we need to change our drug policy to one like Portugal, they decriminalised drug use and are the only Western country to see addiction and death rates fall.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> I don't think so....you have a tiny population.....and now, with the influx of immigrants from 3rd world countries you will be facing the same problems the U.S. has...
> 
> *Since then the system has grown and evolved into a network of 1,700 providers across Australia, with companies competing for public money and the right to triage some 750,000 unemployed people on Newstart into a series of government schemes with questionable outcomes such as Work for the Dole, ParentsNext and the PaTh Program.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The nightmare of Australia's welfare system: 'At the push of a button, my working life was erased'
> 
> 
> Six people recount their interactions with Centrelink and the government’s welfare programs, which range from absurd to frustrating to insulting
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.theguardian.com
Click to expand...



We have a much more rational immigration policy and complete control of our borders.

Now granted that is more easy as we are an island continent, but we will never have the immigration problems that affect the USA and much of Europe.


----------



## Jake Winker Frogen

Jake Winker Frogen said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jake Winker Frogen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jake Winker Frogen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Turtlesoup said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jake Winker Frogen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Turtlesoup said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jake Winker Frogen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jake Winker Frogen said:
> 
> 
> 
> Americans shoot each other like they are playing frisbee.
> 
> America has more accidental gun deaths than any democratic country on Earth, you kill your kids and friends and uncles and neighbours like serial killers in a bad B movie.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No, Americans don't shoot each other, criminals shoot each other.
> 
> We have over 600 million guns in private hands, and over 19.4 million people have permits to carry guns for self defense....... over 320 million people in the country...
> 
> 
> 
> Accidental gun deaths?
> 
> In 2018, 458 accidental gun deaths....you moron.
> 
> Meanwhile, Americans use their legal guns 1.1 million times a year to save lives....from rape, robbery and murder according to the Centers for Disease Control.....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Who is confining it to accidental gun deaths?
> 
> It is also the half wit uncle who shoots a neighbour in a rage or domestic gun violence or crimes that in other nations are not violent but in the USA involve guns.
> 
> For instance the UK has recently seen a wave of knife crime, had they the access to guns the US has the death toll would be horrendous, like the US.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> I'd shoot someone coming after me with a knife neighbor or no neighbor.     See how this works?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yeah you are probably the kind of Yank who shoots a kid for hitting his car with a frisbee too.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Actually, I am a southerner--Texan more specifically originally.   "Yank" is kinda an insult given that southerners used to call northerners yanks/yankees.
> 
> This said you really can't tell the moral difference between someone with a knife coming after you and some random kid with a frisbee?  Really?   No wonder they don't allow the brits whatever you are to play with guns.   We don't allow children or the mental ill here to have them either.
> 
> I am actually a woman---raised on a small farm but never thought of guns being that important till two guys (one may have been a woman)  with long hair in a white van tried to grab me off the streets of Vegas in broad daylight.   I'd seen them around for a few days as I quickly walked home from Binion's Casino where I worked, but I didn't see them that day till it was too late as they came up behind me with the van door open trying to grab me.   The two guys in a truck behind them saw them and  chased them off though.  Within 3 days, I had purchased a new hand gun.....even till this day, I wish I had it and shot them because I am pretty sure that they had other victims who weren't as lucky as I am.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> That is an interesting story, I mean that sincerely.
> 
> Thanks for sharing that.
> 
> If I lived in America I would probably have a gun too.
> 
> There is just no need for one in Australia.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Let me fix that for you...
> 
> There is just no need for one in Australia......... yet.
> 
> As your country is over run by immigrant drug gangs who will increase the violence around their drug turf, and social welfare programs in Australia break down the family, leaving more and more children raised in homes without fathers......you will see why good people need guns...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> It is because our welfare system is more effective than the USA that we do not see the generational family break down the US does, indeed few Western countries do.
> 
> We have drugs, but our health system is so superior to the US our addiction rates are much lower, though we need to change our drug policy to one like Portugal, they decriminalised drug use and are the only Western country to see addiction and death rates fall.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> I don't think so....you have a tiny population.....and now, with the influx of immigrants from 3rd world countries you will be facing the same problems the U.S. has...
> 
> *Since then the system has grown and evolved into a network of 1,700 providers across Australia, with companies competing for public money and the right to triage some 750,000 unemployed people on Newstart into a series of government schemes with questionable outcomes such as Work for the Dole, ParentsNext and the PaTh Program.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The nightmare of Australia's welfare system: 'At the push of a button, my working life was erased'
> 
> 
> Six people recount their interactions with Centrelink and the government’s welfare programs, which range from absurd to frustrating to insulting
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.theguardian.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> We have a much more rational immigration policy and complete control of our borders.
> 
> You come unwelcome or the wrong way your are locked up until you leave or are deported.
> 
> Now granted that is more easy as we are an island continent, but we will never have the immigration problems that affect the USA and much of Europe.
Click to expand...


----------



## Dr Grump

Jake Winker Frogen said:


> Yes, we do not have a gun problem.
> 
> In fact we have not had a mass shooting since Port Arthur.  It was a conservative Prime Minister who tightened gun control after that. Though one can own under licence and certain conditions.
> 
> That is what I have been saying.



Well, there was that shooting up in Darwin last year, but since Bryant, nada.


----------



## Dr Grump

2aguy said:


> Let me fix that for you...
> 
> There is just no need for one in Australia......... yet.
> 
> As your country is over run by immigrant drug gangs who will increase the violence around their drug turf, and social welfare programs in Australia break down the family, leaving more and more children raised in homes without fathers......you will see why good people need guns...



Bollocks. Different folks different strokes. Your second is half the problem. Plus a disjointed policing system.
Stop blaming immigrants and others for your gun culture. Own it. It's yours.


----------



## Jake Winker Frogen

Dr Grump said:


> Jake Winker Frogen said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, we do not have a gun problem.
> 
> In fact we have not had a mass shooting since Port Arthur.  It was a conservative Prime Minister who tightened gun control after that. Though one can own under licence and certain conditions.
> 
> That is what I have been saying.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well, there was that shooting up in Darwin last year, but since Bryant, nada.
Click to expand...



Yeah four dead, that is considered a tragedy in Australia, in Chicago that would be a calm day.


----------



## Dr Grump

Jake Winker Frogen said:


> Dr Grump said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jake Winker Frogen said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, we do not have a gun problem.
> 
> In fact we have not had a mass shooting since Port Arthur.  It was a conservative Prime Minister who tightened gun control after that. Though one can own under licence and certain conditions.
> 
> That is what I have been saying.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well, there was that shooting up in Darwin last year, but since Bryant, nada.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah four dead, that is considered a tragedy in Australia, in Chicago that would be a calm day.
Click to expand...

Yep.
What part of Aussie are you in?


----------



## Jake Winker Frogen

Dr Grump said:


> Jake Winker Frogen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dr Grump said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jake Winker Frogen said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, we do not have a gun problem.
> 
> In fact we have not had a mass shooting since Port Arthur.  It was a conservative Prime Minister who tightened gun control after that. Though one can own under licence and certain conditions.
> 
> That is what I have been saying.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well, there was that shooting up in Darwin last year, but since Bryant, nada.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah four dead, that is considered a tragedy in Australia, in Chicago that would be a calm day.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Yep.
> What part of Aussie are you in?
Click to expand...


I live in Perth. 

I actually went to the beach yesterday and was not taken by a Great White.

That was a good day.


----------



## ReinyDays

Jake Winker Frogen said:


> I live in Perth.
> I actually went to the beach yesterday and was not taken by a Great White.
> That was a good day.



Funny ... everything in Australia will kill you ...

Thank you for the corrections to the OP ... I though he had this whole "guns are banned in Australia" rhetoric wrong ... it's more restrictive there than here, but not outright banned ...

On average, 25 people per year are shot dead by toddlers in the US ... 2- or 3-year-olds with guns ... unheard of in the rest of the world ... put that in your "Only in the United States" basket ...


----------



## Jake Winker Frogen

ReinyDays said:


> Jake Winker Frogen said:
> 
> 
> 
> I live in Perth.
> I actually went to the beach yesterday and was not taken by a Great White.
> That was a good day.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Funny ... everything in Australia will kill you ...
> 
> Thank you for the corrections to the OP ... I though he had this whole "guns are banned in Australia" rhetoric wrong ... it's more restrictive there than here, but not outright banned ...
> 
> On average, 25 people per year are shot dead by toddlers in the US ... 2- or 3-year-olds with guns ... unheard of in the rest of the world ... put that in your "Only in the United States" basket ...
Click to expand...



Yes you can apply to own fire arms here but there usually has to be an occupational reason


Like farmer or commercial hunter.

There are conditions for personal ownership or collecting as well, but I do not know what they are. The restrictions would be tight.

We also have gun clubs for people who want to recreationally shoot.

I took my son to one last year, he was a natural and I could not hit the side of a barn!

And I was once got a marksman ribbon in the US Navy Sea Bees.

My son still reminds me of that pretty much every day.

Getting old is no fun.


----------



## Dr Grump

Jake Winker Frogen said:


> I live in Perth.
> 
> I actually went to the beach yesterday and was not taken by a Great White.
> 
> That was a good day.


My other half landed in Perth as a refugee from Vietnam in the 70s. Then moved to Sydney, then back to Perth for a couple of years for a business venture, then back to Sydney. 

Been to Perth once. Nice place. Bit remote, but liked it a lot.


----------



## Jake Winker Frogen

I always wanted to visit Vietnam, on my bucket list.

Have you been?

Yeah Perth is farther from the Eastern states than we are Singapore. 


Beautiful state but remote.


----------



## ReinyDays

Jake Winker Frogen said:


> ReinyDays said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jake Winker Frogen said:
> 
> 
> 
> I live in Perth.
> I actually went to the beach yesterday and was not taken by a Great White.
> That was a good day.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Funny ... everything in Australia will kill you ...
> 
> Thank you for the corrections to the OP ... I though he had this whole "guns are banned in Australia" rhetoric wrong ... it's more restrictive there than here, but not outright banned ...
> 
> On average, 25 people per year are shot dead by toddlers in the US ... 2- or 3-year-olds with guns ... unheard of in the rest of the world ... put that in your "Only in the United States" basket ...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Yes you can apply to own fire arms here but there usually has to be an occupational reason
> 
> 
> Like farmer or commercial hunter.
> 
> There are conditions for personal ownership or collecting as well, but I do not know what they are. The restrictions would be tight.
> 
> We also have gun clubs for people who want to recreationally shoot.
> 
> I took my son to one last year, he was a natural and I could not hit the side of a barn!
> 
> And I was once got a marksman ribbon in the US Navy Sea Bees.
> 
> My son still reminds me of that pretty much every day.
> 
> Getting old is no fun.
Click to expand...


Yeah, sounds like the same restrictions we have here on machine guns, AAA batteries, field guns and such ... very tightly regulated BUT these weapons are available to the common person, and the annual license fees are steep ... tales from the desert include empty 35mm and 50mm shells ...

Air Force ... my first NCOIC was incensed his two new airman only had marksmanship ribbons ... had us check out .38's every month and sent us to the range to practice ... my buddy got his Oak Leaf cluster, I didn't ...

Getting old can be fun ... treachery is the secret ... get them young puppies chasing their tails ... very enjoyable ...


----------



## Jake Winker Frogen

ReinyDays said:


> Jake Winker Frogen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ReinyDays said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jake Winker Frogen said:
> 
> 
> 
> I live in Perth.
> I actually went to the beach yesterday and was not taken by a Great White.
> That was a good day.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Funny ... everything in Australia will kill you ...
> 
> Thank you for the corrections to the OP ... I though he had this whole "guns are banned in Australia" rhetoric wrong ... it's more restrictive there than here, but not outright banned ...
> 
> On average, 25 people per year are shot dead by toddlers in the US ... 2- or 3-year-olds with guns ... unheard of in the rest of the world ... put that in your "Only in the United States" basket ...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Yes you can apply to own fire arms here but there usually has to be an occupational reason
> 
> 
> Like farmer or commercial hunter.
> 
> There are conditions for personal ownership or collecting as well, but I do not know what they are. The restrictions would be tight.
> 
> We also have gun clubs for people who want to recreationally shoot.
> 
> I took my son to one last year, he was a natural and I could not hit the side of a barn!
> 
> And I was once got a marksman ribbon in the US Navy Sea Bees.
> 
> My son still reminds me of that pretty much every day.
> 
> Getting old is no fun.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yeah, sounds like the same restrictions we have here on machine guns, AAA batteries, field guns and such ... very tightly regulated BUT these weapons are available to the common person, and the annual license fees are steep ... tales from the desert include empty 35mm and 50mm shells ...
> 
> Air Force ... my first NCOIC was incensed his two new airman only had marksmanship ribbons ... had us check out .38's every month and sent us to the range to practice ... my buddy got his Oak Leaf cluster, I didn't ...
> 
> Getting old can be fun ... treachery is the secret ... get them young puppies chasing their tails ... very enjoyable ...
Click to expand...



 I was not very good at shooting even then.

Was in danger of not even qualifying in the first week, the second week the Marine Gunny training us told me to wear an eye patch on my left eye and get laid the night before.

I got the eyepatch at least.

And the next week was much better.

However I think this is why they assigned me to mortar platoon.


----------



## Jake Winker Frogen

Jake Winker Frogen said:


> Turtlesoup said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jake Winker Frogen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Turtlesoup said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jake Winker Frogen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Turtlesoup said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jake Winker Frogen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jake Winker Frogen said:
> 
> 
> 
> Americans shoot each other like they are playing frisbee.
> 
> America has more accidental gun deaths than any democratic country on Earth, you kill your kids and friends and uncles and neighbours like serial killers in a bad B movie.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No, Americans don't shoot each other, criminals shoot each other.
> 
> We have over 600 million guns in private hands, and over 19.4 million people have permits to carry guns for self defense....... over 320 million people in the country...
> 
> 
> 
> Accidental gun deaths?
> 
> In 2018, 458 accidental gun deaths....you moron.
> 
> Meanwhile, Americans use their legal guns 1.1 million times a year to save lives....from rape, robbery and murder according to the Centers for Disease Control.....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Who is confining it to accidental gun deaths?
> 
> It is also the half wit uncle who shoots a neighbour in a rage or domestic gun violence or crimes that in other nations are not violent but in the USA involve guns.
> 
> For instance the UK has recently seen a wave of knife crime, had they the access to guns the US has the death toll would be horrendous, like the US.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> I'd shoot someone coming after me with a knife neighbor or no neighbor.     See how this works?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yeah you are probably the kind of Yank who shoots a kid for hitting his car with a frisbee too.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Actually, I am a southerner--Texan more specifically originally.   "Yank" is kinda an insult given that southerners used to call northerners yanks/yankees.
> 
> This said you really can't tell the moral difference between someone with a knife coming after you and some random kid with a frisbee?  Really?   No wonder they don't allow the brits whatever you are to play with guns.   We don't allow children or the mental ill here to have them either.
> 
> I am actually a woman---raised on a small farm but never thought of guns being that important till two guys (one may have been a woman)  with long hair in a white van tried to grab me off the streets of Vegas in broad daylight.   I'd seen them around for a few days as I quickly walked home from Binion's Casino where I worked, but I didn't see them that day till it was too late as they came up behind me with the van door open trying to grab me.   The two guys in a truck behind them saw them and  chased them off though.  Within 3 days, I had purchased a new hand gun.....even till this day, I wish I had it and shot them because I am pretty sure that they had other victims who weren't as lucky as I am.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> That is an interesting story, I mean that sincerely.
> 
> Thanks for sharing that.
> 
> If I lived in America I would probably have a gun too.
> 
> There is just no need for one in Australia.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Given your snake problems--- I couldn't imagine being without one there either.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I have a friend who found a King Brown in his bath room.
> 
> Yikes.
> 
> But we know how to deal with them without killing them.
Click to expand...


This is an Aussie neighbour. 





__





						Facebook
					






					www.facebook.com


----------



## Dr Grump

Jake Winker Frogen said:


> I always wanted to visit Vietnam, on my bucket list.
> Have you been?
> 
> Yeah Perth is farther from the Eastern states than we are Singapore.
> Beautiful state but remote.



No. My sister has been, my parents have been, but not I. She wants to take me there. I might go. 
When I was in Perth I was a on a press junket. I was speaking to one of the WA journos and he said that if WA wasn't connected to the rest of the country by land it would be a separate country altogether....lol...


----------



## Jake Winker Frogen

Dr Grump said:


> Jake Winker Frogen said:
> 
> 
> 
> I always wanted to visit Vietnam, on my bucket list.
> Have you been?
> 
> Yeah Perth is farther from the Eastern states than we are Singapore.
> Beautiful state but remote.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No. My sister has been, my parents have been, but not I. She wants to take me there. I might go.
> When I was in Perth I was a on a press junket. I was speaking to one of the WA journos and he said that if WA wasn't connected to the rest of the country by land it would be a separate country altogether....lol...
Click to expand...



There are people here who want it to be.

They are a minority but not small.

Some times I think our Premier thinks we are.


----------



## Dr Grump

Jake Winker Frogen said:


> There are people here who want it to be.
> They are a minority but not small.
> 
> Some times I think our Premier thinks we are.



So do I.
Our premier is lucky to still be in her job.


----------



## Turtlesoup

Jake Winker Frogen said:


> Dr Grump said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jake Winker Frogen said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, we do not have a gun problem.
> 
> In fact we have not had a mass shooting since Port Arthur.  It was a conservative Prime Minister who tightened gun control after that. Though one can own under licence and certain conditions.
> 
> That is what I have been saying.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well, there was that shooting up in Darwin last year, but since Bryant, nada.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah four dead, that is considered a tragedy in Australia, in Chicago that would be a calm day.
Click to expand...

Chicago isn't like the rest of the u


Jake Winker Frogen said:


> Jake Winker Frogen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Turtlesoup said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jake Winker Frogen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Turtlesoup said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jake Winker Frogen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Turtlesoup said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jake Winker Frogen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jake Winker Frogen said:
> 
> 
> 
> Americans shoot each other like they are playing frisbee.
> 
> America has more accidental gun deaths than any democratic country on Earth, you kill your kids and friends and uncles and neighbours like serial killers in a bad B movie.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No, Americans don't shoot each other, criminals shoot each other.
> 
> We have over 600 million guns in private hands, and over 19.4 million people have permits to carry guns for self defense....... over 320 million people in the country...
> 
> 
> 
> Accidental gun deaths?
> 
> In 2018, 458 accidental gun deaths....you moron.
> 
> Meanwhile, Americans use their legal guns 1.1 million times a year to save lives....from rape, robbery and murder according to the Centers for Disease Control.....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Who is confining it to accidental gun deaths?
> 
> It is also the half wit uncle who shoots a neighbour in a rage or domestic gun violence or crimes that in other nations are not violent but in the USA involve guns.
> 
> For instance the UK has recently seen a wave of knife crime, had they the access to guns the US has the death toll would be horrendous, like the US.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> I'd shoot someone coming after me with a knife neighbor or no neighbor.     See how this works?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yeah you are probably the kind of Yank who shoots a kid for hitting his car with a frisbee too.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Actually, I am a southerner--Texan more specifically originally.   "Yank" is kinda an insult given that southerners used to call northerners yanks/yankees.
> 
> This said you really can't tell the moral difference between someone with a knife coming after you and some random kid with a frisbee?  Really?   No wonder they don't allow the brits whatever you are to play with guns.   We don't allow children or the mental ill here to have them either.
> 
> I am actually a woman---raised on a small farm but never thought of guns being that important till two guys (one may have been a woman)  with long hair in a white van tried to grab me off the streets of Vegas in broad daylight.   I'd seen them around for a few days as I quickly walked home from Binion's Casino where I worked, but I didn't see them that day till it was too late as they came up behind me with the van door open trying to grab me.   The two guys in a truck behind them saw them and  chased them off though.  Within 3 days, I had purchased a new hand gun.....even till this day, I wish I had it and shot them because I am pretty sure that they had other victims who weren't as lucky as I am.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> That is an interesting story, I mean that sincerely.
> 
> Thanks for sharing that.
> 
> If I lived in America I would probably have a gun too.
> 
> There is just no need for one in Australia.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Given your snake problems--- I couldn't imagine being without one there either.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I have a friend who found a King Brown in his bath room.
> 
> Yikes.
> 
> But we know how to deal with them without killing them.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> This is an Aussie neighbour.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Facebook
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.facebook.com
Click to expand...

Good Grief, you are going to give me nightmares....


----------



## 2aguy

Jake Winker Frogen said:


> Dr Grump said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yes....they do....
> 
> 
> 
> 92 Australians died last year due to guns (not including suicides)
> The US had 15,000+ deaths.
> Compared to the US, Australia doesn't have a gun problem.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, we do not have a gun problem.
> 
> In fact we have not had a mass shooting since Port Arthur.  It was a conservative Prime Minister who tightened gun control after that. Though one can own under licence and certain conditions.
> 
> That is what I have been saying.
Click to expand...



Actually, that isn't true...you have had shootings in public, the shooter simply failed to kill enough people to qualify for mass public shooting status....

If individuals want to shoot people in Australia, your gun control laws won't stop them...the only thing that stopped these public shootings from becoming mass public shootings?  The shooter who had a gun in a public place failed to kill 3 people....

Timeline of major crimes in Australia - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


16 January 1998 to 15 June 2009 – Melbourne gangland killings – A series of 35 murders of crime figures and their associates that began with the slaying of Alphonse Gangitano in his home, most likely by Jason Moran, the latest victim being Des Moran who was murdered in Ascot Vale on 15 June 2009.




16 August 1998 – Victorian police officers Gary Silk and Rodney Miller were shot dead in an ambush by Bendali Debs and Jason Joseph Roberts in the Moorabbin Police murders.
*3 August 1999 – La Trobe University shooting – Jonathan Brett Horrocks walked into the cafeteria in La Trobe university in Melbourne Victoria armed with a 38 caliber revolver handgun and opened fire killing Leon Capraro the boss and manager off the cafeteria and wounding a woman who was a student at the university.*
13 March 2000 – Millewa State Forest Murders – Barbara and Stephen Brooks and Stacie Willoughby were found dead, all three having been shot execution style and left in the forest.[60][61]
26 May 2002 – A Vietnamese man walked into a Vietnamese wedding reception in Cabramatta Sydney, New South Wales armed with a handgun and opened fire wounding seven people.

14 October 2002 – Dr. Margret Tobin, the South Australian head of Mental Health Services, was shot dead by Jean Eric Gassy as she walked out of a lift in her office building.
*21 October 2002 – Monash University shooting – Huan Xiang opened fire in a tutorial room, killing two and injuring five.*
25 October 2003 – Greenacre double murder – A man and a woman are shot dead in a house in the suburb of Greenacre, Sydney which was the result of a feud between two Middle Eastern crime families, 24-year-old Ziad Abdulrazak was shot 10 times in the chest and head and 22-year-old Mervat Hamka was shot twice in the neck while she slept in her bedroom, up to 100 shots were fired into the house from four men who were later arrested and convicted of the murders.
26 July 2004 – Security guard Karen Brown shot dead armed robber William Aquilina in a Sydney carpark after he violently bashed her and stole the hotel's takings. Brown was charged with murder but acquitted on the grounds of self-defence.[66][67]

*18 June 2007 – Melbourne CBD shooting – Christopher Wayne Hudson opened fire on three people, killing one and seriously wounding two others who intervened when Hudson was assaulting his girlfriend at a busy Melbourne intersection during the morning peak. He gave himself up to police in Wallan, Victoria on 20 June.[71]*
10 April 2010 – Rajesh Osborne shot and killed his three children, 12 year-old Asia, 10-year-old Jarius and 7-year-old Grace before killing himself in Roxburgh, Victoria.[_citation needed_]
28 April 2011 – 2011 Hectorville siege – Donato Anthony Corbo shot dead Kobus and Annetjie Snyman and their son-in-law Luc Mombers and seriously wounded Mr Mombers' 14-year-old son Marcel and a police officer at Hectorville, South Australia before being arrested after an eight-hour stand off.
1
29 January 2012 – Giovanni Focarelli, son of Comancheros gang member Vincenzo Focarelli, was shot dead whilst Vincenzo survived the fourth attempt on his life.[79]
*28 April 2012 – A man opened fire in a busy shopping mall in Robina on the Gold Coast shooting Bandidos bikie Jacques Teamo. A woman who was an innocent bystander was also injured from a shotgun blast to the leg. Neither of the victims died, but the incident highlighted the recent increase in gun crime across major Australian cities including Sydney, Brisbane and Adelaide.[citation needed]*
23 May 2012 – Christopher 'Badness' Binse, a career criminal well known to police, was arrested after a 44-hour siege at an East Keilor home in Melbourne's north west. During the siege, Binse fired several shots at police and refused to co-operate with negotiators; eventually tear gas had to be used to force him out of the house, at which point he refused to put down his weapon and was then sprayed with a volley of non-lethal bullets.[_citation needed_]
15 December 2012 – Aaron Carlino murdered drug dealer Stephen Cookson in his East Perth home by shooting him twice in the head and then he cut up and dismembered his body. He buried his arms legs and torso in the backyard of his house and he wrapped his head in a plastic bag and dumped it on Rottnest Island. The head of Cookson was later found washed up on Rottnest Island by an 11-year-old girl. Carlino was convicted of the murder and was sentenced to life in prison.[_citation needed_]
*8 March 2013 – Queen Street mall siege – Lee Matthew Hiller entered the shopping mall on Queen Street Brisbane Queensland armed with a revolver and threatened shoppers and staff with the revolver, causing a 90-minute siege which ended when Hiller was shot and wounded in the arm by a police officer from the elite Specialist Emergency Response Team. Hiller was then later taken to hospital and was treated for his injury; he pleaded gulity to 20 charges and was sentenced to four-and-a-half years in jail with a non-parole period of two years and three months.[*_*c*itation needed_]
29 July 2013 – Two bikie gang associates, Vasko Boskovski and Bassil Hijazi were shot dead in two separate shooting incidents minutes apart in South West Sydney. The previous week Bassil Hijazi had survived a previous attempt against his life after he was shot inside his car.[_citation needed_]
*9 September 2014 – Lockhart massacre* – Geoff Hunt shot and killed his wife, Kim, his 10-year-old son Fletcher, and his daughters Mia, eight and Phoebe, six before killing himself on a farm in Lockhart in the Riverina district near Wagga Wagga New South Wales. The body of Geoff Hunt and a firearm are later found in a dam on the farm by police divers and a suicide note written by Geoff Hunt is also found inside the house on the farm.[_citation needed_]
*22 October 2014 – Wedderburn shootings* – Ian Jamieson shot dead Peter Lockhart, Peter's wife Mary and Mary's son Greg Holmes on two farm properties in Wedderburn, Victoria over a property dispute. Jamieson surrendered to police after a three-and-a-half hour siege.[_citation needed_]
7 November 2014 – Jordy Brook carjacked a Channel 7 news cameraman at gun point during a crime spree on the Sunshine Coast, Queensland. He was later captured and arrested by police after luring police on a high speed chase and crashing the car.[_citation needed_]
12 November 2014 – Jamie Edwards and Joelene Joyce a married couple who were drug dealers are found shot dead in a car on a highway in the town of Moama, New South Wales.[86]


*15 December 2014 – 2014 Sydney hostage crisis – Seventeen people were taken hostage in a cafe in Martin Place, Sydney by Man Haron Monis. The hostage crisis was resolved in the early hours of 16 December, sixteen hours after it commenced, when armed police stormed the premises. Monis and two hostages were killed in the course of the crisis.[87]*
*27 June 2015 – Hermidale triple murder –* the bodies of three people, two men and a woman are found shot dead on a property in a rural farming community in the town of Hermidale west of Nyngan, the bodies of 28-year-old Jacob Cumberland his father 59-year-old Stephen Cumberland and a 36-year-old woman were found with gun shot wounds, the body of Jacob Cumberland was found on the drive way of the property, the body of the 36-year-old woman was found in the backyard of the property and the body of Stephen Cumberland was found in a burnt out caravan on the property. 61-year-old Allan O'Connor is later arrested and charged with the murders.


*10 September 2015 – A 49-year-old woman is shot dead in a Mc Donald's restaurant in Gold Coast by her 57-year-old ex partner, who then turned the gun on himself afterwards and shot himself dead.*


*2 October 2015 - 2015 Parramatta shooting* On 2 October 2015, Farhad Khalil Mohammad Jabar, a 15-year-old boy, shot and killed Curtis Cheng, an unarmed police civilian finance worker, outside the New South Wales Police Force headquarters in Parramatta, Australia. Jabar was subsequently shot and killed by special constables who were protecting the police station.


----------



## Jake Winker Frogen

2aguy said:


> Jake Winker Frogen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dr Grump said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yes....they do....
> 
> 
> 
> 92 Australians died last year due to guns (not including suicides)
> The US had 15,000+ deaths.
> Compared to the US, Australia doesn't have a gun problem.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, we do not have a gun problem.
> 
> In fact we have not had a mass shooting since Port Arthur.  It was a conservative Prime Minister who tightened gun control after that. Though one can own under licence and certain conditions.
> 
> That is what I have been saying.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Actually, that isn't true...you have had shootings in public, the shooter simply failed to kill enough people to qualify for mass public shooting status....
> 
> If individuals want to shoot people in Australia, your gun control laws won't stop them...the only thing that stopped these public shootings from becoming mass public shootings?  The shooter who had a gun in a public place failed to kill 3 people....
> 
> Timeline of major crimes in Australia - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> 
> 16 January 1998 to 15 June 2009 – Melbourne gangland killings – A series of 35 murders of crime figures and their associates that began with the slaying of Alphonse Gangitano in his home, most likely by Jason Moran, the latest victim being Des Moran who was murdered in Ascot Vale on 15 June 2009.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 16 August 1998 – Victorian police officers Gary Silk and Rodney Miller were shot dead in an ambush by Bendali Debs and Jason Joseph Roberts in the Moorabbin Police murders.
> *3 August 1999 – La Trobe University shooting – Jonathan Brett Horrocks walked into the cafeteria in La Trobe university in Melbourne Victoria armed with a 38 caliber revolver handgun and opened fire killing Leon Capraro the boss and manager off the cafeteria and wounding a woman who was a student at the university.*
> 13 March 2000 – Millewa State Forest Murders – Barbara and Stephen Brooks and Stacie Willoughby were found dead, all three having been shot execution style and left in the forest.[60][61]
> 26 May 2002 – A Vietnamese man walked into a Vietnamese wedding reception in Cabramatta Sydney, New South Wales armed with a handgun and opened fire wounding seven people.
> 
> 14 October 2002 – Dr. Margret Tobin, the South Australian head of Mental Health Services, was shot dead by Jean Eric Gassy as she walked out of a lift in her office building.
> *21 October 2002 – Monash University shooting – Huan Xiang opened fire in a tutorial room, killing two and injuring five.*
> 25 October 2003 – Greenacre double murder – A man and a woman are shot dead in a house in the suburb of Greenacre, Sydney which was the result of a feud between two Middle Eastern crime families, 24-year-old Ziad Abdulrazak was shot 10 times in the chest and head and 22-year-old Mervat Hamka was shot twice in the neck while she slept in her bedroom, up to 100 shots were fired into the house from four men who were later arrested and convicted of the murders.
> 26 July 2004 – Security guard Karen Brown shot dead armed robber William Aquilina in a Sydney carpark after he violently bashed her and stole the hotel's takings. Brown was charged with murder but acquitted on the grounds of self-defence.[66][67]
> 
> *18 June 2007 – Melbourne CBD shooting – Christopher Wayne Hudson opened fire on three people, killing one and seriously wounding two others who intervened when Hudson was assaulting his girlfriend at a busy Melbourne intersection during the morning peak. He gave himself up to police in Wallan, Victoria on 20 June.[71]*
> 10 April 2010 – Rajesh Osborne shot and killed his three children, 12 year-old Asia, 10-year-old Jarius and 7-year-old Grace before killing himself in Roxburgh, Victoria.[_citation needed_]
> 28 April 2011 – 2011 Hectorville siege – Donato Anthony Corbo shot dead Kobus and Annetjie Snyman and their son-in-law Luc Mombers and seriously wounded Mr Mombers' 14-year-old son Marcel and a police officer at Hectorville, South Australia before being arrested after an eight-hour stand off.
> 1
> 29 January 2012 – Giovanni Focarelli, son of Comancheros gang member Vincenzo Focarelli, was shot dead whilst Vincenzo survived the fourth attempt on his life.[79]
> *28 April 2012 – A man opened fire in a busy shopping mall in Robina on the Gold Coast shooting Bandidos bikie Jacques Teamo. A woman who was an innocent bystander was also injured from a shotgun blast to the leg. Neither of the victims died, but the incident highlighted the recent increase in gun crime across major Australian cities including Sydney, Brisbane and Adelaide.[citation needed]*
> 23 May 2012 – Christopher 'Badness' Binse, a career criminal well known to police, was arrested after a 44-hour siege at an East Keilor home in Melbourne's north west. During the siege, Binse fired several shots at police and refused to co-operate with negotiators; eventually tear gas had to be used to force him out of the house, at which point he refused to put down his weapon and was then sprayed with a volley of non-lethal bullets.[_citation needed_]
> 15 December 2012 – Aaron Carlino murdered drug dealer Stephen Cookson in his East Perth home by shooting him twice in the head and then he cut up and dismembered his body. He buried his arms legs and torso in the backyard of his house and he wrapped his head in a plastic bag and dumped it on Rottnest Island. The head of Cookson was later found washed up on Rottnest Island by an 11-year-old girl. Carlino was convicted of the murder and was sentenced to life in prison.[_citation needed_]
> *8 March 2013 – Queen Street mall siege – Lee Matthew Hiller entered the shopping mall on Queen Street Brisbane Queensland armed with a revolver and threatened shoppers and staff with the revolver, causing a 90-minute siege which ended when Hiller was shot and wounded in the arm by a police officer from the elite Specialist Emergency Response Team. Hiller was then later taken to hospital and was treated for his injury; he pleaded gulity to 20 charges and was sentenced to four-and-a-half years in jail with a non-parole period of two years and three months.[*_*c*itation needed_]
> 29 July 2013 – Two bikie gang associates, Vasko Boskovski and Bassil Hijazi were shot dead in two separate shooting incidents minutes apart in South West Sydney. The previous week Bassil Hijazi had survived a previous attempt against his life after he was shot inside his car.[_citation needed_]
> *9 September 2014 – Lockhart massacre* – Geoff Hunt shot and killed his wife, Kim, his 10-year-old son Fletcher, and his daughters Mia, eight and Phoebe, six before killing himself on a farm in Lockhart in the Riverina district near Wagga Wagga New South Wales. The body of Geoff Hunt and a firearm are later found in a dam on the farm by police divers and a suicide note written by Geoff Hunt is also found inside the house on the farm.[_citation needed_]
> *22 October 2014 – Wedderburn shootings* – Ian Jamieson shot dead Peter Lockhart, Peter's wife Mary and Mary's son Greg Holmes on two farm properties in Wedderburn, Victoria over a property dispute. Jamieson surrendered to police after a three-and-a-half hour siege.[_citation needed_]
> 7 November 2014 – Jordy Brook carjacked a Channel 7 news cameraman at gun point during a crime spree on the Sunshine Coast, Queensland. He was later captured and arrested by police after luring police on a high speed chase and crashing the car.[_citation needed_]
> 12 November 2014 – Jamie Edwards and Joelene Joyce a married couple who were drug dealers are found shot dead in a car on a highway in the town of Moama, New South Wales.[86]
> 
> 
> *15 December 2014 – 2014 Sydney hostage crisis – Seventeen people were taken hostage in a cafe in Martin Place, Sydney by Man Haron Monis. The hostage crisis was resolved in the early hours of 16 December, sixteen hours after it commenced, when armed police stormed the premises. Monis and two hostages were killed in the course of the crisis.[87]*
> *27 June 2015 – Hermidale triple murder –* the bodies of three people, two men and a woman are found shot dead on a property in a rural farming community in the town of Hermidale west of Nyngan, the bodies of 28-year-old Jacob Cumberland his father 59-year-old Stephen Cumberland and a 36-year-old woman were found with gun shot wounds, the body of Jacob Cumberland was found on the drive way of the property, the body of the 36-year-old woman was found in the backyard of the property and the body of Stephen Cumberland was found in a burnt out caravan on the property. 61-year-old Allan O'Connor is later arrested and charged with the murders.
> 
> 
> *10 September 2015 – A 49-year-old woman is shot dead in a Mc Donald's restaurant in Gold Coast by her 57-year-old ex partner, who then turned the gun on himself afterwards and shot himself dead.*
> 
> 
> *2 October 2015 - 2015 Parramatta shooting* On 2 October 2015, Farhad Khalil Mohammad Jabar, a 15-year-old boy, shot and killed Curtis Cheng, an unarmed police civilian finance worker, outside the New South Wales Police Force headquarters in Parramatta, Australia. Jabar was subsequently shot and killed by special constables who were protecting the police station.
Click to expand...



Killing one or two people is not Columbine.

Think about it.

The numbers are what they are.

America is full of killers!



			Gun Deaths by Country 2023


----------



## 2aguy

Dr Grump said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Let me fix that for you...
> 
> There is just no need for one in Australia......... yet.
> 
> As your country is over run by immigrant drug gangs who will increase the violence around their drug turf, and social welfare programs in Australia break down the family, leaving more and more children raised in homes without fathers......you will see why good people need guns...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Bollocks. Different folks different strokes. Your second is half the problem. Plus a disjointed policing system.
> Stop blaming immigrants and others for your gun culture. Own it. It's yours.
Click to expand...



Our gun culture is fine, our problem is the democrat party that keeps releasing violent, repeat gun offenders.  The violent, repeat gun offenders are the ones doing all the shooting, not our normal, law abiding gun owners....

Guns are not the problem......democrat prosecutors and judges are the problem...

Over the last 27 years, we went from 200 million guns in private hands in the 1990s and 4.7 million people carrying guns for self defense in 1997...to close to 400-600 million guns in private hands and over 19.4 million people carrying guns for self defense in 2019...guess what happened...

New Concealed Carry Report For 2020: 19.48 Million Permit Holders, 820,000 More Than Last Year despite many states shutting down issuing permits because of the Coronavirus - Crime Prevention Research Center


-- gun murder down 49%

--gun crime down 75%

--violent crime down 72%

Gun Homicide Rate Down 49% Since 1993 Peak; Public Unaware

Compared with 1993, the peak of U.S. gun homicides, the firearm homicide rate was 49% lower in 2010, and there were fewer deaths, even though the nation’s population grew. The victimization rate for other violent crimes with a firearm—assaults, robberies and sex crimes—was 75% lower in 2011 than in 1993. Violent non-fatal crime victimization overall (with or without a firearm) also is down markedly (72%) over two decades.

Charts.......two charts, one for murder, one for violent crime....both going down as more people were carrying guns for self defense.






Courtesy Crime Prevention Research Center


John Lott has published his Concealed Carry Permit Holders Across the United States: 2020 and there’s lots of good news in it.


The number of concealed handgun permits has soared to over 19.48 million – a 34% increase over 2016.
Seventeen states no longer provide data on all the people who are legally carrying a concealed handgun because people in those states no longer need a permit to carry.
Permits for women and minorities continue to increase at a much faster rate than for either men or whites.
Five states now have over 1 million permit holders: Alabama, Florida, Georgia, Pennsylvania, and Texas. Florida is the first state to have over 2 million permits.
And more. On personal note, I’m proud that my own state is one of those with a million-plus. That’s particularly impressive, because the last time I checked, we were only around 700,000; about 1 in 8 adults.

Other goods news is that chart above. It shows the murder rate has declined as the CCW rate increases. That’s not news to TTAG regulars, but it’s nice to see it confirmed for yet another year. In case some gun-grabbing type wants to argue that the murder rate trend is really almost flat, so it doesn’t mean anything, take a look at the CCW vs. violent crime trend. Concealed carry is up while violent crime down.

But the trend is even more noticeable, to the point where one cannot _honestly_ deny it.







Courtesy Crime Prevention Research Center


I

Data Reveals Murders and Violent Crime Decrease as More People Carry Guns - The Truth About Guns


----------



## 2aguy

Jake Winker Frogen said:


> Dr Grump said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jake Winker Frogen said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, we do not have a gun problem.
> 
> In fact we have not had a mass shooting since Port Arthur.  It was a conservative Prime Minister who tightened gun control after that. Though one can own under licence and certain conditions.
> 
> That is what I have been saying.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well, there was that shooting up in Darwin last year, but since Bryant, nada.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah four dead, that is considered a tragedy in Australia, in Chicago that would be a calm day.
Click to expand...



And your gun control laws don't stop that from happening....you fail to understand that.   Your criminals have guns, they just choose not to murder each other with them.  What part of that equation do you not understand?


----------



## 2aguy

Jake Winker Frogen said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jake Winker Frogen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dr Grump said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yes....they do....
> 
> 
> 
> 92 Australians died last year due to guns (not including suicides)
> The US had 15,000+ deaths.
> Compared to the US, Australia doesn't have a gun problem.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, we do not have a gun problem.
> 
> In fact we have not had a mass shooting since Port Arthur.  It was a conservative Prime Minister who tightened gun control after that. Though one can own under licence and certain conditions.
> 
> That is what I have been saying.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Actually, that isn't true...you have had shootings in public, the shooter simply failed to kill enough people to qualify for mass public shooting status....
> 
> If individuals want to shoot people in Australia, your gun control laws won't stop them...the only thing that stopped these public shootings from becoming mass public shootings?  The shooter who had a gun in a public place failed to kill 3 people....
> 
> Timeline of major crimes in Australia - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> 
> 16 January 1998 to 15 June 2009 – Melbourne gangland killings – A series of 35 murders of crime figures and their associates that began with the slaying of Alphonse Gangitano in his home, most likely by Jason Moran, the latest victim being Des Moran who was murdered in Ascot Vale on 15 June 2009.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 16 August 1998 – Victorian police officers Gary Silk and Rodney Miller were shot dead in an ambush by Bendali Debs and Jason Joseph Roberts in the Moorabbin Police murders.
> *3 August 1999 – La Trobe University shooting – Jonathan Brett Horrocks walked into the cafeteria in La Trobe university in Melbourne Victoria armed with a 38 caliber revolver handgun and opened fire killing Leon Capraro the boss and manager off the cafeteria and wounding a woman who was a student at the university.*
> 13 March 2000 – Millewa State Forest Murders – Barbara and Stephen Brooks and Stacie Willoughby were found dead, all three having been shot execution style and left in the forest.[60][61]
> 26 May 2002 – A Vietnamese man walked into a Vietnamese wedding reception in Cabramatta Sydney, New South Wales armed with a handgun and opened fire wounding seven people.
> 
> 14 October 2002 – Dr. Margret Tobin, the South Australian head of Mental Health Services, was shot dead by Jean Eric Gassy as she walked out of a lift in her office building.
> *21 October 2002 – Monash University shooting – Huan Xiang opened fire in a tutorial room, killing two and injuring five.*
> 25 October 2003 – Greenacre double murder – A man and a woman are shot dead in a house in the suburb of Greenacre, Sydney which was the result of a feud between two Middle Eastern crime families, 24-year-old Ziad Abdulrazak was shot 10 times in the chest and head and 22-year-old Mervat Hamka was shot twice in the neck while she slept in her bedroom, up to 100 shots were fired into the house from four men who were later arrested and convicted of the murders.
> 26 July 2004 – Security guard Karen Brown shot dead armed robber William Aquilina in a Sydney carpark after he violently bashed her and stole the hotel's takings. Brown was charged with murder but acquitted on the grounds of self-defence.[66][67]
> 
> *18 June 2007 – Melbourne CBD shooting – Christopher Wayne Hudson opened fire on three people, killing one and seriously wounding two others who intervened when Hudson was assaulting his girlfriend at a busy Melbourne intersection during the morning peak. He gave himself up to police in Wallan, Victoria on 20 June.[71]*
> 10 April 2010 – Rajesh Osborne shot and killed his three children, 12 year-old Asia, 10-year-old Jarius and 7-year-old Grace before killing himself in Roxburgh, Victoria.[_citation needed_]
> 28 April 2011 – 2011 Hectorville siege – Donato Anthony Corbo shot dead Kobus and Annetjie Snyman and their son-in-law Luc Mombers and seriously wounded Mr Mombers' 14-year-old son Marcel and a police officer at Hectorville, South Australia before being arrested after an eight-hour stand off.
> 1
> 29 January 2012 – Giovanni Focarelli, son of Comancheros gang member Vincenzo Focarelli, was shot dead whilst Vincenzo survived the fourth attempt on his life.[79]
> *28 April 2012 – A man opened fire in a busy shopping mall in Robina on the Gold Coast shooting Bandidos bikie Jacques Teamo. A woman who was an innocent bystander was also injured from a shotgun blast to the leg. Neither of the victims died, but the incident highlighted the recent increase in gun crime across major Australian cities including Sydney, Brisbane and Adelaide.[citation needed]*
> 23 May 2012 – Christopher 'Badness' Binse, a career criminal well known to police, was arrested after a 44-hour siege at an East Keilor home in Melbourne's north west. During the siege, Binse fired several shots at police and refused to co-operate with negotiators; eventually tear gas had to be used to force him out of the house, at which point he refused to put down his weapon and was then sprayed with a volley of non-lethal bullets.[_citation needed_]
> 15 December 2012 – Aaron Carlino murdered drug dealer Stephen Cookson in his East Perth home by shooting him twice in the head and then he cut up and dismembered his body. He buried his arms legs and torso in the backyard of his house and he wrapped his head in a plastic bag and dumped it on Rottnest Island. The head of Cookson was later found washed up on Rottnest Island by an 11-year-old girl. Carlino was convicted of the murder and was sentenced to life in prison.[_citation needed_]
> *8 March 2013 – Queen Street mall siege – Lee Matthew Hiller entered the shopping mall on Queen Street Brisbane Queensland armed with a revolver and threatened shoppers and staff with the revolver, causing a 90-minute siege which ended when Hiller was shot and wounded in the arm by a police officer from the elite Specialist Emergency Response Team. Hiller was then later taken to hospital and was treated for his injury; he pleaded gulity to 20 charges and was sentenced to four-and-a-half years in jail with a non-parole period of two years and three months.[*_*c*itation needed_]
> 29 July 2013 – Two bikie gang associates, Vasko Boskovski and Bassil Hijazi were shot dead in two separate shooting incidents minutes apart in South West Sydney. The previous week Bassil Hijazi had survived a previous attempt against his life after he was shot inside his car.[_citation needed_]
> *9 September 2014 – Lockhart massacre* – Geoff Hunt shot and killed his wife, Kim, his 10-year-old son Fletcher, and his daughters Mia, eight and Phoebe, six before killing himself on a farm in Lockhart in the Riverina district near Wagga Wagga New South Wales. The body of Geoff Hunt and a firearm are later found in a dam on the farm by police divers and a suicide note written by Geoff Hunt is also found inside the house on the farm.[_citation needed_]
> *22 October 2014 – Wedderburn shootings* – Ian Jamieson shot dead Peter Lockhart, Peter's wife Mary and Mary's son Greg Holmes on two farm properties in Wedderburn, Victoria over a property dispute. Jamieson surrendered to police after a three-and-a-half hour siege.[_citation needed_]
> 7 November 2014 – Jordy Brook carjacked a Channel 7 news cameraman at gun point during a crime spree on the Sunshine Coast, Queensland. He was later captured and arrested by police after luring police on a high speed chase and crashing the car.[_citation needed_]
> 12 November 2014 – Jamie Edwards and Joelene Joyce a married couple who were drug dealers are found shot dead in a car on a highway in the town of Moama, New South Wales.[86]
> 
> 
> *15 December 2014 – 2014 Sydney hostage crisis – Seventeen people were taken hostage in a cafe in Martin Place, Sydney by Man Haron Monis. The hostage crisis was resolved in the early hours of 16 December, sixteen hours after it commenced, when armed police stormed the premises. Monis and two hostages were killed in the course of the crisis.[87]*
> *27 June 2015 – Hermidale triple murder –* the bodies of three people, two men and a woman are found shot dead on a property in a rural farming community in the town of Hermidale west of Nyngan, the bodies of 28-year-old Jacob Cumberland his father 59-year-old Stephen Cumberland and a 36-year-old woman were found with gun shot wounds, the body of Jacob Cumberland was found on the drive way of the property, the body of the 36-year-old woman was found in the backyard of the property and the body of Stephen Cumberland was found in a burnt out caravan on the property. 61-year-old Allan O'Connor is later arrested and charged with the murders.
> 
> 
> *10 September 2015 – A 49-year-old woman is shot dead in a Mc Donald's restaurant in Gold Coast by her 57-year-old ex partner, who then turned the gun on himself afterwards and shot himself dead.*
> 
> 
> *2 October 2015 - 2015 Parramatta shooting* On 2 October 2015, Farhad Khalil Mohammad Jabar, a 15-year-old boy, shot and killed Curtis Cheng, an unarmed police civilian finance worker, outside the New South Wales Police Force headquarters in Parramatta, Australia. Jabar was subsequently shot and killed by special constables who were protecting the police station.
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Killing one or two people is not Columbine.
> 
> Think about it.
> 
> The numbers are what they are.
> 
> America is full of killers!
> 
> 
> 
> Gun Deaths by Country 2023
Click to expand...



Again......the only reason you haven't had another mass public shooting is no one has planned and attacked.......your gun control laws do not stop it.... as that list of public shootings shows........

And in Britain, a guy with a .22 bolt action rifle killed and a double barrelled shotgun killed 13 people.......so again, your gun control laws do not stop mass public shootings......


----------



## 2aguy

Jake Winker Frogen said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jake Winker Frogen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dr Grump said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yes....they do....
> 
> 
> 
> 92 Australians died last year due to guns (not including suicides)
> The US had 15,000+ deaths.
> Compared to the US, Australia doesn't have a gun problem.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, we do not have a gun problem.
> 
> In fact we have not had a mass shooting since Port Arthur.  It was a conservative Prime Minister who tightened gun control after that. Though one can own under licence and certain conditions.
> 
> That is what I have been saying.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Actually, that isn't true...you have had shootings in public, the shooter simply failed to kill enough people to qualify for mass public shooting status....
> 
> If individuals want to shoot people in Australia, your gun control laws won't stop them...the only thing that stopped these public shootings from becoming mass public shootings?  The shooter who had a gun in a public place failed to kill 3 people....
> 
> Timeline of major crimes in Australia - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> 
> 16 January 1998 to 15 June 2009 – Melbourne gangland killings – A series of 35 murders of crime figures and their associates that began with the slaying of Alphonse Gangitano in his home, most likely by Jason Moran, the latest victim being Des Moran who was murdered in Ascot Vale on 15 June 2009.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 16 August 1998 – Victorian police officers Gary Silk and Rodney Miller were shot dead in an ambush by Bendali Debs and Jason Joseph Roberts in the Moorabbin Police murders.
> *3 August 1999 – La Trobe University shooting – Jonathan Brett Horrocks walked into the cafeteria in La Trobe university in Melbourne Victoria armed with a 38 caliber revolver handgun and opened fire killing Leon Capraro the boss and manager off the cafeteria and wounding a woman who was a student at the university.*
> 13 March 2000 – Millewa State Forest Murders – Barbara and Stephen Brooks and Stacie Willoughby were found dead, all three having been shot execution style and left in the forest.[60][61]
> 26 May 2002 – A Vietnamese man walked into a Vietnamese wedding reception in Cabramatta Sydney, New South Wales armed with a handgun and opened fire wounding seven people.
> 
> 14 October 2002 – Dr. Margret Tobin, the South Australian head of Mental Health Services, was shot dead by Jean Eric Gassy as she walked out of a lift in her office building.
> *21 October 2002 – Monash University shooting – Huan Xiang opened fire in a tutorial room, killing two and injuring five.*
> 25 October 2003 – Greenacre double murder – A man and a woman are shot dead in a house in the suburb of Greenacre, Sydney which was the result of a feud between two Middle Eastern crime families, 24-year-old Ziad Abdulrazak was shot 10 times in the chest and head and 22-year-old Mervat Hamka was shot twice in the neck while she slept in her bedroom, up to 100 shots were fired into the house from four men who were later arrested and convicted of the murders.
> 26 July 2004 – Security guard Karen Brown shot dead armed robber William Aquilina in a Sydney carpark after he violently bashed her and stole the hotel's takings. Brown was charged with murder but acquitted on the grounds of self-defence.[66][67]
> 
> *18 June 2007 – Melbourne CBD shooting – Christopher Wayne Hudson opened fire on three people, killing one and seriously wounding two others who intervened when Hudson was assaulting his girlfriend at a busy Melbourne intersection during the morning peak. He gave himself up to police in Wallan, Victoria on 20 June.[71]*
> 10 April 2010 – Rajesh Osborne shot and killed his three children, 12 year-old Asia, 10-year-old Jarius and 7-year-old Grace before killing himself in Roxburgh, Victoria.[_citation needed_]
> 28 April 2011 – 2011 Hectorville siege – Donato Anthony Corbo shot dead Kobus and Annetjie Snyman and their son-in-law Luc Mombers and seriously wounded Mr Mombers' 14-year-old son Marcel and a police officer at Hectorville, South Australia before being arrested after an eight-hour stand off.
> 1
> 29 January 2012 – Giovanni Focarelli, son of Comancheros gang member Vincenzo Focarelli, was shot dead whilst Vincenzo survived the fourth attempt on his life.[79]
> *28 April 2012 – A man opened fire in a busy shopping mall in Robina on the Gold Coast shooting Bandidos bikie Jacques Teamo. A woman who was an innocent bystander was also injured from a shotgun blast to the leg. Neither of the victims died, but the incident highlighted the recent increase in gun crime across major Australian cities including Sydney, Brisbane and Adelaide.[citation needed]*
> 23 May 2012 – Christopher 'Badness' Binse, a career criminal well known to police, was arrested after a 44-hour siege at an East Keilor home in Melbourne's north west. During the siege, Binse fired several shots at police and refused to co-operate with negotiators; eventually tear gas had to be used to force him out of the house, at which point he refused to put down his weapon and was then sprayed with a volley of non-lethal bullets.[_citation needed_]
> 15 December 2012 – Aaron Carlino murdered drug dealer Stephen Cookson in his East Perth home by shooting him twice in the head and then he cut up and dismembered his body. He buried his arms legs and torso in the backyard of his house and he wrapped his head in a plastic bag and dumped it on Rottnest Island. The head of Cookson was later found washed up on Rottnest Island by an 11-year-old girl. Carlino was convicted of the murder and was sentenced to life in prison.[_citation needed_]
> *8 March 2013 – Queen Street mall siege – Lee Matthew Hiller entered the shopping mall on Queen Street Brisbane Queensland armed with a revolver and threatened shoppers and staff with the revolver, causing a 90-minute siege which ended when Hiller was shot and wounded in the arm by a police officer from the elite Specialist Emergency Response Team. Hiller was then later taken to hospital and was treated for his injury; he pleaded gulity to 20 charges and was sentenced to four-and-a-half years in jail with a non-parole period of two years and three months.[*_*c*itation needed_]
> 29 July 2013 – Two bikie gang associates, Vasko Boskovski and Bassil Hijazi were shot dead in two separate shooting incidents minutes apart in South West Sydney. The previous week Bassil Hijazi had survived a previous attempt against his life after he was shot inside his car.[_citation needed_]
> *9 September 2014 – Lockhart massacre* – Geoff Hunt shot and killed his wife, Kim, his 10-year-old son Fletcher, and his daughters Mia, eight and Phoebe, six before killing himself on a farm in Lockhart in the Riverina district near Wagga Wagga New South Wales. The body of Geoff Hunt and a firearm are later found in a dam on the farm by police divers and a suicide note written by Geoff Hunt is also found inside the house on the farm.[_citation needed_]
> *22 October 2014 – Wedderburn shootings* – Ian Jamieson shot dead Peter Lockhart, Peter's wife Mary and Mary's son Greg Holmes on two farm properties in Wedderburn, Victoria over a property dispute. Jamieson surrendered to police after a three-and-a-half hour siege.[_citation needed_]
> 7 November 2014 – Jordy Brook carjacked a Channel 7 news cameraman at gun point during a crime spree on the Sunshine Coast, Queensland. He was later captured and arrested by police after luring police on a high speed chase and crashing the car.[_citation needed_]
> 12 November 2014 – Jamie Edwards and Joelene Joyce a married couple who were drug dealers are found shot dead in a car on a highway in the town of Moama, New South Wales.[86]
> 
> 
> *15 December 2014 – 2014 Sydney hostage crisis – Seventeen people were taken hostage in a cafe in Martin Place, Sydney by Man Haron Monis. The hostage crisis was resolved in the early hours of 16 December, sixteen hours after it commenced, when armed police stormed the premises. Monis and two hostages were killed in the course of the crisis.[87]*
> *27 June 2015 – Hermidale triple murder –* the bodies of three people, two men and a woman are found shot dead on a property in a rural farming community in the town of Hermidale west of Nyngan, the bodies of 28-year-old Jacob Cumberland his father 59-year-old Stephen Cumberland and a 36-year-old woman were found with gun shot wounds, the body of Jacob Cumberland was found on the drive way of the property, the body of the 36-year-old woman was found in the backyard of the property and the body of Stephen Cumberland was found in a burnt out caravan on the property. 61-year-old Allan O'Connor is later arrested and charged with the murders.
> 
> 
> *10 September 2015 – A 49-year-old woman is shot dead in a Mc Donald's restaurant in Gold Coast by her 57-year-old ex partner, who then turned the gun on himself afterwards and shot himself dead.*
> 
> 
> *2 October 2015 - 2015 Parramatta shooting* On 2 October 2015, Farhad Khalil Mohammad Jabar, a 15-year-old boy, shot and killed Curtis Cheng, an unarmed police civilian finance worker, outside the New South Wales Police Force headquarters in Parramatta, Australia. Jabar was subsequently shot and killed by special constables who were protecting the police station.
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Killing one or two people is not Columbine.
> 
> Think about it.
> 
> The numbers are what they are.
> 
> America is full of killers!
> 
> 
> 
> Gun Deaths by Country 2023
Click to expand...



And you fail to understand that Armed Americans use their legal guns to save lives....according to our Centers for Disease Control.....1.1 million times a year.  Our Department of Justice research showed 1.5 million times a year.....

Guns are not the problem......locking up repeat gun offenders is the problem here since our democrat party judges and prosecutors in democrat party controlled cities keep letting the same guys, using illegal guns, out of jail and prison over and over again.......


----------



## Jake Winker Frogen

2aguy said:


> Jake Winker Frogen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dr Grump said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jake Winker Frogen said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, we do not have a gun problem.
> 
> In fact we have not had a mass shooting since Port Arthur.  It was a conservative Prime Minister who tightened gun control after that. Though one can own under licence and certain conditions.
> 
> That is what I have been saying.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well, there was that shooting up in Darwin last year, but since Bryant, nada.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah four dead, that is considered a tragedy in Australia, in Chicago that would be a calm day.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> And your gun control laws don't stop that from happening....you fail to understand that.   Your criminals have guns, they just choose not to murder each other with them.  What part of that equation do you not understand?
Click to expand...



Nice slogan, we have fewer gun deaths, even between our gangs.


Americans are just violent savages, that is just who you are.

Embrace it.


----------



## Likkmee

2aguy said:


> Wait...what?
> 
> But.....they banned guns...right?
> 
> Don't criminals understand that guns are banned?
> 
> *The killings that shocked the city*
> *In eight weeks from March to May 2019, a string of public shootings rocked Melbourne with eight men shot dead and two badly wounded.*
> 
> *They included the death of Ben Togiai outside a Melbourne Pavilion boxing match and killing of Mitat Rasimi in his car at Dandenong on March 3. The following day Ali Ali and Deniz Hasan died after being shot at Meadow Heights.
> ---------
> 
> In April, security guard Aaron Khalid Osmani and Richard Arow were gunned down outside Love Machine nightclub. Twelve days later Daniel O’Shea was shot dead in Fawkner Park. It remains the only unsolved gun homicide for 2019.*
> 
> *In November, the murder of Croydon fruiterer and father Paul Virgona gripped the state when his van was peppered with bullets as he drove along the Eastlink.*
> *Armed assailants also killed Duane Hutchings, Winis Apet , Scott Muston , Matthew Moroney and newly married Yarraville couple Veton and Lindita Musai in 2019.*


----------



## 2aguy

Jake Winker Frogen said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jake Winker Frogen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dr Grump said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jake Winker Frogen said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, we do not have a gun problem.
> 
> In fact we have not had a mass shooting since Port Arthur.  It was a conservative Prime Minister who tightened gun control after that. Though one can own under licence and certain conditions.
> 
> That is what I have been saying.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well, there was that shooting up in Darwin last year, but since Bryant, nada.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah four dead, that is considered a tragedy in Australia, in Chicago that would be a calm day.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> And your gun control laws don't stop that from happening....you fail to understand that.   Your criminals have guns, they just choose not to murder each other with them.  What part of that equation do you not understand?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Nice slogan, we have fewer gun deaths, even between our gangs.
> 
> 
> Americans are just violent savages, that is just who you are.
> 
> Embrace it.
Click to expand...



No....that is who the democrat party releases over and over again......and your gangs are becoming more violent......


----------



## Jake Winker Frogen

2aguy said:


> Jake Winker Frogen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jake Winker Frogen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dr Grump said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jake Winker Frogen said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, we do not have a gun problem.
> 
> In fact we have not had a mass shooting since Port Arthur.  It was a conservative Prime Minister who tightened gun control after that. Though one can own under licence and certain conditions.
> 
> That is what I have been saying.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well, there was that shooting up in Darwin last year, but since Bryant, nada.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah four dead, that is considered a tragedy in Australia, in Chicago that would be a calm day.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> And your gun control laws don't stop that from happening....you fail to understand that.   Your criminals have guns, they just choose not to murder each other with them.  What part of that equation do you not understand?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Nice slogan, we have fewer gun deaths, even between our gangs.
> 
> 
> Americans are just violent savages, that is just who you are.
> 
> Embrace it.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> No....that is who the democrat party releases over and over again......and your gangs are becoming more violent......
Click to expand...



Australian gangs are pussies.


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## Dr Grump

2aguy said:


> ...and your gangs are becoming more violent......



Only towards each other which is a good thing. I like the idea of each member taking another out. Less shit on the streets.


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## 2aguy

Dr Grump said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...and your gangs are becoming more violent......
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Only towards each other which is a good thing. I like the idea of each member taking another out. Less shit on the streets.
Click to expand...



And yet that is the same with gun violence in the United States...criminals murdering other criminals.......


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## 2aguy

Teenager shot in Australia.....how does this happen when they have extreme gun control...









						Gunman on the run after teenager shot in Sydney's west
					






					www.9news.com.au


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## danielpalos

We have a Second Amendment and should have no security problems in our free States.


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## PredFan

Jake Winker Frogen said:


> Organised criminals in all countries can get guns.
> 
> They are not the problem, it is all the slobbering half wits with delusions of Clint Eastwood or Hip Hop grandeur with guns that sees so many people killed in the United States of Anger.


Did you actually say that guns in the hands of criminals are not the problem?
Are you really THAT stupid?


----------



## danielpalos

PredFan said:


> Jake Winker Frogen said:
> 
> 
> 
> Organised criminals in all countries can get guns.
> 
> They are not the problem, it is all the slobbering half wits with delusions of Clint Eastwood or Hip Hop grandeur with guns that sees so many people killed in the United States of Anger.
> 
> 
> 
> Did you actually say that guns in the hands of criminals are not the problem?
> Are you really THAT stupid?
Click to expand...

Right wing gun lovers seem to be worse.


----------



## Jake Winker Frogen

PredFan said:


> Jake Winker Frogen said:
> 
> 
> 
> Organised criminals in all countries can get guns.
> 
> They are not the problem, it is all the slobbering half wits with delusions of Clint Eastwood or Hip Hop grandeur with guns that sees so many people killed in the United States of Anger.
> 
> 
> 
> Did you actually say that guns in the hands of criminals are not the problem?
> Are you really THAT stupid?
Click to expand...



Poorly written and cheerfully withdrawn.

Allow me to clarify.

Criminals get guns in any society. That is the for the police to deal with.

But only in America can any half wit, slack jawed, moronic hick with a small penis and mental issues as a consequence get one and go off half cocked on society, shooting up schools and their neighbours and so it  goes in the blood stained United States of Anger.


----------



## Oz and the Orchestra

2aguy said:


> Another article on gun crime in Australia .......
> 
> *More than 14 hardened criminals are being found in possession of firearms each week as the state grapples with a rising gun culture that has led to twice as many Victorians shot dead in 2019.*
> 
> *The Age can reveal 52 people were shot and 14 fatally gunned down across the state last year, twice as many as the previous 12 months, with handguns increasingly used by criminals to settle drug debts or underworld disputes.*
> 
> *During the past 24 hours lives were threatened in two separate gun crimes in Melbourne's north after a shot was fired as a Hadfield supermarket owner wrestled a gun from the hand of a robber and armed bandits reportedly stormed a Westmeadows tavern eight kilometres away.
> -----*
> 
> *Anti-gangs division Detective Superintendent Peter Brigham said illegal firearms were routinely unearthed at the homes of drug traffickers and in the possession of “gangster types” chasing image and status.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Gun violence grips Victoria as deadly shootings double
> 
> 
> More than 14 hardened criminals are being found in possession of firearms each week as the state grapples with a rising gun culture that has led to a 50 per cent spike in the number of Victorian's gunned down in 2019.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.theage.com.au
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Quick question......are "Assault rifles," banned in Australia now?
> 
> How about grenades....you know...grenades?
> 
> *n September, a 35-year-old Docklands man was sentenced to at least eight years' jail for heroin trafficking. As part of his plea deal, the former Iraqi national led police to a cache of weapons wrapped in plastic and hidden in a Melbourne drain. They included an SKS assault rifle and grenades.*
> 
> *See...the problem?  Australia seems to have forgotten to ban high powered military rifles for criminals........perhaps they should pass more gun control laws.....*
> 
> *And while handguns were proving to be the gun of choice among young men, high powered military-grade firearms were in demand from the city’s outlaw motorcycle gangs.*


The US like the UK banned drugs. It doesn't stop criminals illegally importing them you dummy!


----------



## 2aguy

Oz and the Orchestra said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Another article on gun crime in Australia .......
> 
> *More than 14 hardened criminals are being found in possession of firearms each week as the state grapples with a rising gun culture that has led to twice as many Victorians shot dead in 2019.*
> 
> *The Age can reveal 52 people were shot and 14 fatally gunned down across the state last year, twice as many as the previous 12 months, with handguns increasingly used by criminals to settle drug debts or underworld disputes.*
> 
> *During the past 24 hours lives were threatened in two separate gun crimes in Melbourne's north after a shot was fired as a Hadfield supermarket owner wrestled a gun from the hand of a robber and armed bandits reportedly stormed a Westmeadows tavern eight kilometres away.
> -----*
> 
> *Anti-gangs division Detective Superintendent Peter Brigham said illegal firearms were routinely unearthed at the homes of drug traffickers and in the possession of “gangster types” chasing image and status.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Gun violence grips Victoria as deadly shootings double
> 
> 
> More than 14 hardened criminals are being found in possession of firearms each week as the state grapples with a rising gun culture that has led to a 50 per cent spike in the number of Victorian's gunned down in 2019.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.theage.com.au
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Quick question......are "Assault rifles," banned in Australia now?
> 
> How about grenades....you know...grenades?
> 
> *n September, a 35-year-old Docklands man was sentenced to at least eight years' jail for heroin trafficking. As part of his plea deal, the former Iraqi national led police to a cache of weapons wrapped in plastic and hidden in a Melbourne drain. They included an SKS assault rifle and grenades.*
> 
> *See...the problem?  Australia seems to have forgotten to ban high powered military rifles for criminals........perhaps they should pass more gun control laws.....*
> 
> *And while handguns were proving to be the gun of choice among young men, high powered military-grade firearms were in demand from the city’s outlaw motorcycle gangs.*
> 
> 
> 
> The US like the UK banned drugs. It doesn't stop criminals illegally importing them you dummy!
Click to expand...



I'm not the one who is telling people that laws that criminals ignore effect the crime rate....you are one of the idiots that does that....


----------



## 2aguy

Jake Winker Frogen said:


> PredFan said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jake Winker Frogen said:
> 
> 
> 
> Organised criminals in all countries can get guns.
> 
> They are not the problem, it is all the slobbering half wits with delusions of Clint Eastwood or Hip Hop grandeur with guns that sees so many people killed in the United States of Anger.
> 
> 
> 
> Did you actually say that guns in the hands of criminals are not the problem?
> Are you really THAT stupid?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Poorly written and cheerfully withdrawn.
> 
> Allow me to clarify.
> 
> Criminals get guns in any society. That is the for the police to deal with.
> 
> But only in America can any half wit, slack jawed, moronic hick with a small penis and mental issues as a consequence get one and go off half cocked on society, shooting up schools and their neighbours and so it  goes in the blood stained United States of Anger.
Click to expand...



Hey....shit stain...........you can't explain how it is that as more Americans own and carry guns, those half wits you hate, our gun murder rate went down 49%, our gun crime rate went down 75%, and our violent crime rate went down 72%, you dumb ass.

The problem in the United States is not gun ownership.    Our problem is the democrat party, you slack jawed dumb ass........the democrat party and it's policies drive our gun crime rate, it is not normal Americans who own and carry guns for self defense.....you moronic half wit.

the democrat party creates laws that allow violent, repeat gun offenders to be released from jail and prison over and over again.  It is democrat party prosecutors who drop gun charges against violent criminals over and over again, allowing them to be released on bail, and released from prison on short sentences.....and it is these criminals who are known and who have been arrested over and over again who are driving our gun crime rate in democrat party controlled cities......

It is democrat party judges who allow violent, repeat, known gun offenders to be released from jail over and over again on bail, now often on "No Cash," bail, and out of prison with light sentences even though they are known, violent, repeat offenders....

You are the slack jawed idiot who doesn't understand the issues involved in gun crime............you are the problem.


----------



## 2aguy

Jake Winker Frogen said:


> PredFan said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jake Winker Frogen said:
> 
> 
> 
> Organised criminals in all countries can get guns.
> 
> They are not the problem, it is all the slobbering half wits with delusions of Clint Eastwood or Hip Hop grandeur with guns that sees so many people killed in the United States of Anger.
> 
> 
> 
> Did you actually say that guns in the hands of criminals are not the problem?
> Are you really THAT stupid?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Poorly written and cheerfully withdrawn.
> 
> Allow me to clarify.
> 
> Criminals get guns in any society. That is the for the police to deal with.
> 
> But only in America can any half wit, slack jawed, moronic hick with a small penis and mental issues as a consequence get one and go off half cocked on society, shooting up schools and their neighbours and so it  goes in the blood stained United States of Anger.
Click to expand...



Dumb ass...this is why we have gun crime in the U.S. at the levels we do in democrat party controlled cities........

Chicago is completely under democrat party control.........and this is what they do with known, violent criminal offenders.....

*A suspected double-murderer who sparked an Amber Alert across Chicagoland on Friday evening is on bail for allegedly killing a woman while fleeing police and for two separate Class X felony armed habitual criminal gun crimes.*
*
Clarence Hebron, 32, had been held without bail on those cases for over a year until a Cook County judge agreed to release him on just $15,000 bond in July.

Hebron has not been charged with Friday’s murder of 26-year-old Jessica Beal and her brother in Riverdale, but police identified him as the suspect in an Amber Alert after Beal’s 1-year-old boy went missing following the homicides. The boy has since been located.

Incredibly, Hebron was also on bail for the two armed habitual criminal cases when he allegedly killed a woman while fleeing police in April last year.

Two gun cases, two bail bonds, then homicide

Hebron is awaiting trial for two separate major gun cases in which he is charged with a total of two counts of Class X armed habitual criminal, five counts of being a felon in possession of a firearm, and four counts of aggravated unlawful use of a weapon by a felon, according to the Cook County sheriff’s office.

In early 2019, Chicago police and federal agents raided Hebron’s home and recovered a firearm, a source said. Hebron wasn’t home at the time, but his girlfriend and newborn baby were. Police eventually found him, and prosecutors charged him in the case.

The second gun case also started in early 2019. In that incident, cops allegedly found a gun in Hebron’s car after he crashed the vehicle while police followed him on the South Side. He got away, but officers later arrested him at work, according to CPD records.

Hebron was released on bail for both cases.

Just a couple of months later, Hebron again sped away from officers when they tried to stop him for a traffic violation in Englewood on the afternoon of April 18, 2019.

Prosecutors say he crashed his car into a vehicle driven by 32-year-old Dana Hubbard. She died a few days later. He’s charged with reckless homicide by motor vehicle, aggravated fleeing causing bodily injury, and driving on a revoked license resulting in injury or death. A judge ordered him held without bail.
*
*Hebron remained in jail without bail for over a year until his lawyer filed a motion to reduce bail in late June. Three days later, Cook County Judge Dennis Porter slashed Hebron’s bail to $50,000 on each of the three cases.*









						Suspected double-murderer who sparked Amber Alert is on bail for reckless homicide and 2 gun cases
					

Clarence Hebron posted just $15,000 bail to get out of jail on reckless homicide and two Class X felony gun charges in July.




					cwbchicago.com


----------



## PredFan

Jake Winker Frogen said:


> PredFan said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jake Winker Frogen said:
> 
> 
> 
> Organised criminals in all countries can get guns.
> 
> They are not the problem, it is all the slobbering half wits with delusions of Clint Eastwood or Hip Hop grandeur with guns that sees so many people killed in the United States of Anger.
> 
> 
> 
> Did you actually say that guns in the hands of criminals are not the problem?
> Are you really THAT stupid?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Poorly written and cheerfully withdrawn.
> 
> Allow me to clarify.
> 
> Criminals get guns in any society. That is the for the police to deal with.
> 
> But only in America can any half wit, slack jawed, moronic hick with a small penis and mental issues as a consequence get one and go off half cocked on society, shooting up schools and their neighbours and so it  goes in the blood stained United States of Anger.
Click to expand...

The problem is not the gun.


----------



## Jake Winker Frogen

2aguy said:


> Jake Winker Frogen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PredFan said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jake Winker Frogen said:
> 
> 
> 
> Organised criminals in all countries can get guns.
> 
> They are not the problem, it is all the slobbering half wits with delusions of Clint Eastwood or Hip Hop grandeur with guns that sees so many people killed in the United States of Anger.
> 
> 
> 
> Did you actually say that guns in the hands of criminals are not the problem?
> Are you really THAT stupid?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Poorly written and cheerfully withdrawn.
> 
> Allow me to clarify.
> 
> Criminals get guns in any society. That is the for the police to deal with.
> 
> But only in America can any half wit, slack jawed, moronic hick with a small penis and mental issues as a consequence get one and go off half cocked on society, shooting up schools and their neighbours and so it  goes in the blood stained United States of Anger.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Hey....shit stain...........you can't explain how it is that as more Americans own and carry guns, those half wits you hate, our gun murder rate went down 49%, our gun crime rate went down 75%, and our violent crime rate went down 72%, you dumb ass.
> 
> The problem in the United States is not gun ownership.    Our problem is the democrat party, you slack jawed dumb ass........the democrat party and it's policies drive our gun crime rate, it is not normal Americans who own and carry guns for self defense.....you moronic half wit.
> 
> the democrat party creates laws that allow violent, repeat gun offenders to be released from jail and prison over and over again.  It is democrat party prosecutors who drop gun charges against violent criminals over and over again, allowing them to be released on bail, and released from prison on short sentences.....and it is these criminals who are known and who have been arrested over and over again who are driving our gun crime rate in democrat party controlled cities......
> 
> It is democrat party judges who allow violent, repeat, known gun offenders to be released from jail over and over again on bail, now often on "No Cash," bail, and out of prison with light sentences even though they are known, violent, repeat offenders....
> 
> You are the slack jawed idiot who doesn't understand the issues involved in gun crime............you are the problem.
Click to expand...



The evidence is clear, America has the most mass shootings because any half wit can get a gun than any other developed country.

America has more half wits in general too.









						Mass shootings in the U.S. by state 1982-2022 | Statista
					

As of November 2022, California had the most mass shootings in the United States, with 23 total shootings since 1982.




					www.statista.com


----------



## 2aguy

Jake Winker Frogen said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jake Winker Frogen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PredFan said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jake Winker Frogen said:
> 
> 
> 
> Organised criminals in all countries can get guns.
> 
> They are not the problem, it is all the slobbering half wits with delusions of Clint Eastwood or Hip Hop grandeur with guns that sees so many people killed in the United States of Anger.
> 
> 
> 
> Did you actually say that guns in the hands of criminals are not the problem?
> Are you really THAT stupid?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Poorly written and cheerfully withdrawn.
> 
> Allow me to clarify.
> 
> Criminals get guns in any society. That is the for the police to deal with.
> 
> But only in America can any half wit, slack jawed, moronic hick with a small penis and mental issues as a consequence get one and go off half cocked on society, shooting up schools and their neighbours and so it  goes in the blood stained United States of Anger.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Hey....shit stain...........you can't explain how it is that as more Americans own and carry guns, those half wits you hate, our gun murder rate went down 49%, our gun crime rate went down 75%, and our violent crime rate went down 72%, you dumb ass.
> 
> The problem in the United States is not gun ownership.    Our problem is the democrat party, you slack jawed dumb ass........the democrat party and it's policies drive our gun crime rate, it is not normal Americans who own and carry guns for self defense.....you moronic half wit.
> 
> the democrat party creates laws that allow violent, repeat gun offenders to be released from jail and prison over and over again.  It is democrat party prosecutors who drop gun charges against violent criminals over and over again, allowing them to be released on bail, and released from prison on short sentences.....and it is these criminals who are known and who have been arrested over and over again who are driving our gun crime rate in democrat party controlled cities......
> 
> It is democrat party judges who allow violent, repeat, known gun offenders to be released from jail over and over again on bail, now often on "No Cash," bail, and out of prison with light sentences even though they are known, violent, repeat offenders....
> 
> You are the slack jawed idiot who doesn't understand the issues involved in gun crime............you are the problem.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> The evidence is clear, America has the most mass shootings because any half wit can get a gun than any other developed country.
> 
> America has more half wits in general too.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mass shootings in the U.S. by state 1982-2022 | Statista
> 
> 
> As of November 2022, California had the most mass shootings in the United States, with 23 total shootings since 1982.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.statista.com
Click to expand...



You, and they, don't know what they are talking about......

Mother Jones collects mass public shooting data for every mass public shooting that happens in this country....in 2019 there were 10 mass public shootings in the country.....a country of over 330 million people

What you, and they don't understand, is that there is a difference between criminals shooting at each other, and actual mass public shootings...they are not the same thing.....

US mass shootings, 1982-2020: Data from Mother Jones’ investigation

Dating back to at least 2005, the FBI and leading criminologists essentially defined a mass shooting as a single attack in a public place in which four or more victims were killed. We adopted that baseline for fatalities when we gathered data in 2012 on three decades worth of cases. 
-------


Here is a description of the criteria we use:

The perpetrator took the lives of at least four people. A 2008 FBI report identifies an individual as a mass murderer—versus a spree killer or a serial killer—if he kills four or more people in a single incident (not including himself), typically in a single location. (*In 2013, the US government’s fatality baseline was revised down to three; our database reflects this change beginning from Jan. 2013, as detailed above.)
The killings were carried out by a lone shooter. (Except in the case of the Columbine massacre and the Westside Middle School killings, which involved two shooters.)
The shootings occurred in a public place. (Except in the case of a party on private property in Crandon, Wisconsin, and another in Seattle, where crowds of strangers had gathered, essentially constituting a public crowd.)* Crimes primarily related to gang activity or armed robbery are not included, nor are mass killings that took place in private homes (often stemming from domestic violence).*
Perpetrators who died or were wounded during the attack are not included in the victim tallies.
We included a handful of cases also known as “spree killings“—cases in which the killings occurred in more than one location, but still over a short period of time, that otherwise fit the above criteria.

----------------------
Our research focused on indiscriminate rampages in public places resulting in four or more victims killed by the attacker. We exclude shootings stemming from more conventionally motivated crimes such as armed robbery or gang violence. (Or in which the perpetrators have not been identified.) Other news outlets and researchers have since published larger tallies that include a wide range of gun crimes in which four or more people have been either wounded or killed. While those larger datasets of multiple-victim shootings are useful for studying the broader problem of gun violence, our investigation provides an in-depth look at a distinct phenomenon—from the firearms used and mental health factors to the growing copycat problem. Tracking mass shootings is complex; we believe ours is the most useful approach for studying this specific phenomenon.


*Total murders by mass public shooters...1982-2017


795*


knife murders.....2009-2013.....

2009----1,836
2010----1,933
2011----1,611
2012---1,769
2013---1.956
2015....1,589
2016....1,632
2017....1,591

---------
The actual number of mass shootings from Mother Jones......

Here you go...the number of mass public shootings according to Mother Jones...rabid, anti gun, left wing news source....
The list below comes from the old definition of 4 killed to make a shooting a mass shooting...if you now go to the link there are more than listed below...but that is because Mother Jones changed the list from the time I first posted it...and changed to obama's new standard of only 3 dead to make a mass shooting...



US Mass Shootings, 1982-2015: Data From Mother Jones' Investigation

2019....10

2018... 12

2017:  11 ( 5 according to the old standard)

2016....6

2015....4 ( obama's new standard....7)

2014....2 (4)

2013....5

2012....7

2011....3

2010....1

2009....4

2008....3

2007....4

2006....3

2005...2

2004....1

2003...1

2002 not listed so more than likely 0

2001....1

2000....1

1999....5

1998...3

1997....2

1996....1

1995...1

1994...1

1993...4

1992...2

1991...3

1990...1

1989...2

1988....1

1987...1

1986...1

1985... not listed so probably 0

1984...2

1983...not listed so probably 0

1982...1
US Mass Shootings, 1982-2015: Data From Mother Jones' Investigation

*US Mass Shootings, 1982-2015: Data From Mother Jones' Investigation


Rental Truck in Nice, France, 86 murdered in 5 minutes...*

Total number murdered in mass public shootings by year...

*Lawn mower deaths every year.... more than 75

(*https://munews.missouri.edu/news-releases/2007/0419-lawn-mowers.php)
2019....73
2018.....93
2017........117
*2016......71*
2015......37
2014..... 9
2013..... 36
2012..... 72
2011..... 19
2010....9
2009...39
2008...18
2007...54
2006...21
2005...17
2004...5
2003...7
2002...not listed by mother jones
2001...5
2000...7
1999...42
1998...14
1997...9
1996...6
1995...6
1994....5
1993...23
1992...9
1991...35
1990...10
1989...15
1988...7
1987...6
1986...15
1985...(none listed)
1984...28
1983 (none listed)
1982...8


----------



## Jake Winker Frogen

2aguy said:


> Jake Winker Frogen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jake Winker Frogen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PredFan said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jake Winker Frogen said:
> 
> 
> 
> Organised criminals in all countries can get guns.
> 
> They are not the problem, it is all the slobbering half wits with delusions of Clint Eastwood or Hip Hop grandeur with guns that sees so many people killed in the United States of Anger.
> 
> 
> 
> Did you actually say that guns in the hands of criminals are not the problem?
> Are you really THAT stupid?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Poorly written and cheerfully withdrawn.
> 
> Allow me to clarify.
> 
> Criminals get guns in any society. That is the for the police to deal with.
> 
> But only in America can any half wit, slack jawed, moronic hick with a small penis and mental issues as a consequence get one and go off half cocked on society, shooting up schools and their neighbours and so it  goes in the blood stained United States of Anger.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Hey....shit stain...........you can't explain how it is that as more Americans own and carry guns, those half wits you hate, our gun murder rate went down 49%, our gun crime rate went down 75%, and our violent crime rate went down 72%, you dumb ass.
> 
> The problem in the United States is not gun ownership.    Our problem is the democrat party, you slack jawed dumb ass........the democrat party and it's policies drive our gun crime rate, it is not normal Americans who own and carry guns for self defense.....you moronic half wit.
> 
> the democrat party creates laws that allow violent, repeat gun offenders to be released from jail and prison over and over again.  It is democrat party prosecutors who drop gun charges against violent criminals over and over again, allowing them to be released on bail, and released from prison on short sentences.....and it is these criminals who are known and who have been arrested over and over again who are driving our gun crime rate in democrat party controlled cities......
> 
> It is democrat party judges who allow violent, repeat, known gun offenders to be released from jail over and over again on bail, now often on "No Cash," bail, and out of prison with light sentences even though they are known, violent, repeat offenders....
> 
> You are the slack jawed idiot who doesn't understand the issues involved in gun crime............you are the problem.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> The evidence is clear, America has the most mass shootings because any half wit can get a gun than any other developed country.
> 
> America has more half wits in general too.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mass shootings in the U.S. by state 1982-2022 | Statista
> 
> 
> As of November 2022, California had the most mass shootings in the United States, with 23 total shootings since 1982.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.statista.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> You, and they, don't know what they are talking about......
> 
> Mother Jones collects mass public shooting data for every mass public shooting that happens in this country....in 2019 there were 10 mass public shootings in the country.....a country of over 330 million people
> 
> What you, and they don't understand, is that there is a difference between criminals shooting at each other, and actual mass public shootings...they are not the same thing.....
> 
> US mass shootings, 1982-2020: Data from Mother Jones’ investigation
> 
> Dating back to at least 2005, the FBI and leading criminologists essentially defined a mass shooting as a single attack in a public place in which four or more victims were killed. We adopted that baseline for fatalities when we gathered data in 2012 on three decades worth of cases.
> -------
> 
> 
> Here is a description of the criteria we use:
> The perpetrator took the lives of at least four people. A 2008 FBI report identifies an individual as a mass murderer—versus a spree killer or a serial killer—if he kills four or more people in a single incident (not including himself), typically in a single location. (*In 2013, the US government’s fatality baseline was revised down to three; our database reflects this change beginning from Jan. 2013, as detailed above.)
> The killings were carried out by a lone shooter. (Except in the case of the Columbine massacre and the Westside Middle School killings, which involved two shooters.)
> The shootings occurred in a public place. (Except in the case of a party on private property in Crandon, Wisconsin, and another in Seattle, where crowds of strangers had gathered, essentially constituting a public crowd.)* Crimes primarily related to gang activity or armed robbery are not included, nor are mass killings that took place in private homes (often stemming from domestic violence).*
> Perpetrators who died or were wounded during the attack are not included in the victim tallies.
> We included a handful of cases also known as “spree killings“—cases in which the killings occurred in more than one location, but still over a short period of time, that otherwise fit the above criteria.
> 
> ----------------------
> Our research focused on indiscriminate rampages in public places resulting in four or more victims killed by the attacker. We exclude shootings stemming from more conventionally motivated crimes such as armed robbery or gang violence. (Or in which the perpetrators have not been identified.) Other news outlets and researchers have since published larger tallies that include a wide range of gun crimes in which four or more people have been either wounded or killed. While those larger datasets of multiple-victim shootings are useful for studying the broader problem of gun violence, our investigation provides an in-depth look at a distinct phenomenon—from the firearms used and mental health factors to the growing copycat problem. Tracking mass shootings is complex; we believe ours is the most useful approach for studying this specific phenomenon.
> 
> 
> *Total murders by mass public shooters...1982-2017
> 
> 
> 795*
> 
> 
> knife murders.....2009-2013.....
> 
> 2009----1,836
> 2010----1,933
> 2011----1,611
> 2012---1,769
> 2013---1.956
> 2015....1,589
> 2016....1,632
> 2017....1,591
> 
> ---------
> The actual number of mass shootings from Mother Jones......
> 
> Here you go...the number of mass public shootings according to Mother Jones...rabid, anti gun, left wing news source....
> The list below comes from the old definition of 4 killed to make a shooting a mass shooting...if you now go to the link there are more than listed below...but that is because Mother Jones changed the list from the time I first posted it...and changed to obama's new standard of only 3 dead to make a mass shooting...
> 
> 
> 
> US Mass Shootings, 1982-2015: Data From Mother Jones' Investigation
> 
> 2019....10
> 
> 2018... 12
> 
> 2017:  11 ( 5 according to the old standard)
> 
> 2016....6
> 
> 2015....4 ( obama's new standard....7)
> 
> 2014....2 (4)
> 
> 2013....5
> 
> 2012....7
> 
> 2011....3
> 
> 2010....1
> 
> 2009....4
> 
> 2008....3
> 
> 2007....4
> 
> 2006....3
> 
> 2005...2
> 
> 2004....1
> 
> 2003...1
> 
> 2002 not listed so more than likely 0
> 
> 2001....1
> 
> 2000....1
> 
> 1999....5
> 
> 1998...3
> 
> 1997....2
> 
> 1996....1
> 
> 1995...1
> 
> 1994...1
> 
> 1993...4
> 
> 1992...2
> 
> 1991...3
> 
> 1990...1
> 
> 1989...2
> 
> 1988....1
> 
> 1987...1
> 
> 1986...1
> 
> 1985... not listed so probably 0
> 
> 1984...2
> 
> 1983...not listed so probably 0
> 
> 1982...1
> US Mass Shootings, 1982-2015: Data From Mother Jones' Investigation
> 
> *US Mass Shootings, 1982-2015: Data From Mother Jones' Investigation
> 
> 
> Rental Truck in Nice, France, 86 murdered in 5 minutes...*
> 
> Total number murdered in mass public shootings by year...
> 
> *Lawn mower deaths every year.... more than 75
> 
> (*https://munews.missouri.edu/news-releases/2007/0419-lawn-mowers.php)
> 2019....73
> 2018.....93
> 2017........117
> *2016......71*
> 2015......37
> 2014..... 9
> 2013..... 36
> 2012..... 72
> 2011..... 19
> 2010....9
> 2009...39
> 2008...18
> 2007...54
> 2006...21
> 2005...17
> 2004...5
> 2003...7
> 2002...not listed by mother jones
> 2001...5
> 2000...7
> 1999...42
> 1998...14
> 1997...9
> 1996...6
> 1995...6
> 1994....5
> 1993...23
> 1992...9
> 1991...35
> 1990...10
> 1989...15
> 1988...7
> 1987...6
> 1986...15
> 1985...(none listed)
> 1984...28
> 1983 (none listed)
> 1982...8
Click to expand...



The data is clear, Americans are crazed, violent savages with the worst mass shooting record in the democratic, developed world.

And why are you all so fat?









						Mass shootings in the United States - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org


----------



## PredFan

Jake Winker Frogen said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jake Winker Frogen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PredFan said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jake Winker Frogen said:
> 
> 
> 
> Organised criminals in all countries can get guns.
> 
> They are not the problem, it is all the slobbering half wits with delusions of Clint Eastwood or Hip Hop grandeur with guns that sees so many people killed in the United States of Anger.
> 
> 
> 
> Did you actually say that guns in the hands of criminals are not the problem?
> Are you really THAT stupid?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Poorly written and cheerfully withdrawn.
> 
> Allow me to clarify.
> 
> Criminals get guns in any society. That is the for the police to deal with.
> 
> But only in America can any half wit, slack jawed, moronic hick with a small penis and mental issues as a consequence get one and go off half cocked on society, shooting up schools and their neighbours and so it  goes in the blood stained United States of Anger.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Hey....shit stain...........you can't explain how it is that as more Americans own and carry guns, those half wits you hate, our gun murder rate went down 49%, our gun crime rate went down 75%, and our violent crime rate went down 72%, you dumb ass.
> 
> The problem in the United States is not gun ownership.    Our problem is the democrat party, you slack jawed dumb ass........the democrat party and it's policies drive our gun crime rate, it is not normal Americans who own and carry guns for self defense.....you moronic half wit.
> 
> the democrat party creates laws that allow violent, repeat gun offenders to be released from jail and prison over and over again.  It is democrat party prosecutors who drop gun charges against violent criminals over and over again, allowing them to be released on bail, and released from prison on short sentences.....and it is these criminals who are known and who have been arrested over and over again who are driving our gun crime rate in democrat party controlled cities......
> 
> It is democrat party judges who allow violent, repeat, known gun offenders to be released from jail over and over again on bail, now often on "No Cash," bail, and out of prison with light sentences even though they are known, violent, repeat offenders....
> 
> You are the slack jawed idiot who doesn't understand the issues involved in gun crime............you are the problem.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> The evidence is clear, America has the most mass shootings because any half wit can get a gun than any other developed country.
> 
> America has more half wits in general too.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mass shootings in the U.S. by state 1982-2022 | Statista
> 
> 
> As of November 2022, California had the most mass shootings in the United States, with 23 total shootings since 1982.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.statista.com
Click to expand...

You are blaming an inanimate object. The problem is not the gun,the problem is a society that places little value on human lives, and other factors that produce monsters who shoot into crowds of people. I’m not a psychologist so I can’t provide all of the reasons people do this but a gun never turned a sane person into a murderer.

people who are going to kill will do it with or without guns. As long as you focus on the tool, the problem of murder and violence will never be solved.


----------



## Jake Winker Frogen

PredFan said:


> Jake Winker Frogen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jake Winker Frogen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PredFan said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jake Winker Frogen said:
> 
> 
> 
> Organised criminals in all countries can get guns.
> 
> They are not the problem, it is all the slobbering half wits with delusions of Clint Eastwood or Hip Hop grandeur with guns that sees so many people killed in the United States of Anger.
> 
> 
> 
> Did you actually say that guns in the hands of criminals are not the problem?
> Are you really THAT stupid?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Poorly written and cheerfully withdrawn.
> 
> Allow me to clarify.
> 
> Criminals get guns in any society. That is the for the police to deal with.
> 
> But only in America can any half wit, slack jawed, moronic hick with a small penis and mental issues as a consequence get one and go off half cocked on society, shooting up schools and their neighbours and so it  goes in the blood stained United States of Anger.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Hey....shit stain...........you can't explain how it is that as more Americans own and carry guns, those half wits you hate, our gun murder rate went down 49%, our gun crime rate went down 75%, and our violent crime rate went down 72%, you dumb ass.
> 
> The problem in the United States is not gun ownership.    Our problem is the democrat party, you slack jawed dumb ass........the democrat party and it's policies drive our gun crime rate, it is not normal Americans who own and carry guns for self defense.....you moronic half wit.
> 
> the democrat party creates laws that allow violent, repeat gun offenders to be released from jail and prison over and over again.  It is democrat party prosecutors who drop gun charges against violent criminals over and over again, allowing them to be released on bail, and released from prison on short sentences.....and it is these criminals who are known and who have been arrested over and over again who are driving our gun crime rate in democrat party controlled cities......
> 
> It is democrat party judges who allow violent, repeat, known gun offenders to be released from jail over and over again on bail, now often on "No Cash," bail, and out of prison with light sentences even though they are known, violent, repeat offenders....
> 
> You are the slack jawed idiot who doesn't understand the issues involved in gun crime............you are the problem.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> The evidence is clear, America has the most mass shootings because any half wit can get a gun than any other developed country.
> 
> America has more half wits in general too.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mass shootings in the U.S. by state 1982-2022 | Statista
> 
> 
> As of November 2022, California had the most mass shootings in the United States, with 23 total shootings since 1982.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.statista.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You are blaming an inanimate object. The problem is not the gun,the problem is a society that places little value on human lives, and other factors that produce monsters who shoot into crowds of people. I’m not a psychologist so I can’t provide all of the reasons people do this but a gun never turned a sane person into a murderer.
> 
> people who are going to kill will do it with or without guns. As long as you focus on the tool, the problem of murder and violence will never be solved.
Click to expand...



Yes, I agree.

Americans are barbarians and savages.


----------



## bambu.

Jake Winker Frogen said:


> Yes, I agree.
> 
> Americans are barbarians and savages.


No they're not.
They have a different Constitution, different systems...with 50 states all doing their own thing.
Each state basically like "a self-governing country".
Death chambers are barbaric though...but most states have seen the light and have abolished them.


----------



## 2aguy

Jake Winker Frogen said:


> The data is clear, Americans are crazed, violent savages with the worst mass shooting record in the democratic, developed world.
> 
> And why are you all so fat?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mass shootings in the United States - Wikipedia
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> en.wikipedia.org




We had 12 mass public shootings in 2019......12.  In a country of over 330 million people.....

People killed in mass public shootings in 2019...73

People killed by cars, 39,000

People killed by deer.......200

Ladders kill 300 people....

bathtubs over 300 people..

You used wikipedia, which uses anti-gun extremist propaganda for it's page....

The actual number of mass public shootings in the U.S. by year....

Keep in mind.....a terrorist in Nice, France killed 86 people and wounded 453 with a rental truck....more people killed than in any mass public shooting in the U.S......with a rental truck....

US Mass Shootings, 1982-2015: Data From Mother Jones' Investigation

2020....2

2019....10

2018... 12

2017:  11 ( 5 according to the old standard)

2016....6

2015....4 ( obama's new standard....7)

2014....2 (4)

2013....5

2012....7

2011....3

2010....1

2009....4

2008....3

2007....4

2006....3

2005...2

2004....1

2003...1

2002 not listed so more than likely 0

2001....1

2000....1

1999....5

1998...3

1997....2

1996....1

1995...1

1994...1

1993...4

1992...2

1991...3

1990...1

1989...2

1988....1

1987...1

1986...1

1985... not listed so probably 0

1984...2

1983...not listed so probably 0

1982...1
US Mass Shootings, 1982-2015: Data From Mother Jones' Investigation

*US Mass Shootings, 1982-2015: Data From Mother Jones' Investigation*




Deaths in actual mass public shootings... ( someone do the math and tell us what percent of 10,235 the number 73 equals.....)



2020....5
2019....73
2018.....93
2017........117
*2016......71*
2015......37
2014..... 9
2013..... 36
2012..... 72
2011..... 19
2010....9
2009...39
2008...18
2007...54
2006...21
2005...17
2004...5
2003...7
2002...not listed by mother jones
2001...5
2000...7
1999...42
1998...14
1997...9
1996...6
1995...6
1994....5
1993...23
1992...9
1991...35
1990...10
1989...15
1988...7
1987...6
1986...15
1985...(none listed)
1984...28
1983 (none listed)
1982...8


----------



## 2aguy

Jake Winker Frogen said:


> The evidence is clear, America has the most mass shootings because any half wit can get a gun than any other developed country.
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> America has more half wits in general too.
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> Mass shootings in the U.S. by state 1982-2022 | Statista
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> As of November 2022, California had the most mass shootings in the United States, with 23 total shootings since 1982.
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> www.statista.com




Americans use their legal guns 1.2 million times a year to stop rapes, robberies, murders, beatings, and stabbings....

Meanwhile....the countries of Europe handed over their citizens to the German socialists...and the German socialists went through Europe murdering unarmed people to the tune of 15 million people...people who had their guns taken away from them by their governments on the promise it would make them safer....

German socialists

*By genocide, the murder of hostages, reprisal raids, forced labor, "euthanasia," starvation, exposure, medical experiments, and terror bombing, and in the concentration and death camps, the Nazis murdered from 15,003,000 to 31,595,000 people, most likely 20,946,000 men, women, handicapped, aged, sick, prisoners of war, forced laborers, camp inmates, critics, homosexuals, Jews, Slavs, Serbs, Germans, Czechs, Italians, Poles, French, Ukrainians, and many others. Among them 1,000,000 were children under eighteen years of age.1 *

*And none of these monstrous figures even include civilian and military combat or war-deaths*

http://[URL='http://hawaii.edu/powe...]http://hawaii.edu/powerkills/NAZIS.CHAP1.HTM[/URL]

So....in gun murder in the U.S. over 87 years.......about 870,000 people ......most of the victims are criminals murdered by other criminals...

In Europe, over a 6 year period.....at least 15 million murdered by their governments....

Can you tell which number is bigger?

They gave up their guns on the same promises of safety that you guys are making now.........then their governments handed them over to the German socialists to be murdered......

Thanks, but we will keep our guns....


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## Colin norris

2aguy said:


> 2 men shot..in gun free Australia...
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> *A man has been discovered with a gunshot wound in a Sydney home just metres from where another man was found bleeding to death on a footpath hours earlier.*
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> A police operation was underway in Lewisham, in the city’s inner-west, on Friday evening as detectives tried to track down whoever was behind the attacks.
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> Neighbours found a man with a serious wound to his chest on the footpath about 1pm. Police initially said the man had been stabbed but a spokeswoman subsequently confirmed he had been shot.
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> “(I’d) just came back from coffee with a friend and found him on the side of the footpath,” witness Keith Mulhall told Seven News. The man, believed to be in his 30s, died on the way to hospital.
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> *Paramedics were later called to treat a second man, 55, found in a Victoria Street house with a gunshot wound to his head. Armed police surrounded the property and the man was rushed to hospital in a critical condition. NSW police later said he was in a serious condition.*
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> One man is dead and another injured after shooting incident in Sydney
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> A police operation is under way in Lewisham to track down who is behind the attacks
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> www.theguardian.com



There are more guns in oz now then  there was prior to them handing them in. 
The gun nuts will do anything to sarusy their egos. 

I hope they give the criminals guns under the assumption they will use them on themselves. The same in America. 
A school slaughter once a week isn't enough yet.  Give them more.


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## bambu.

Most likely, the bad people didn't hand in their auto/semi auto guns as demanded by the Australian govt in the buyback long ago..
The bad people have a habit of not doing as they're told.
Also, criminal gangs have been ordering Glocks in the mail from Europe. Some get seized, some obviously make it thru. Many ways guns can be smuggled into the country.
Bullets flying around suburban residential Sydney streets, men being murdered at 10am, bullets flying into daycare centres and hospitals just missing toddlers and nurses ...We the People had had enough, cops formed Strike Force Raptor.

Pair face life in prison for three murders of Sydney gangland rivals

_High-ranking bikie gang members Abuzar Sultani and Siar Munshizada committed string of killings in 2016

Two men face life in prison for three execution murders of gang rivals, including mafioso Pasquale Barbaro and another that occurred a metre from the target’s fiancee.
Business student Abuzar Sultani and housemate Siar Munshizada’s three murder convictions can be revealed after the New South Wales court of criminal appeal on Thursday lifted suppression orders covering the case.
The men, aged 32 and 33, were active and high-ranking members of a Rebels bikie gang chapter when they committed a string of murders across Sydney in 2016.

Rebels enforcer Michael “Ruthless” Davey, described by his father, William, last week as the victim of a “cowardly aggressive and sickening” murder, was shot dead in the driveway of his home in Kingswood on 30 March 2016._


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