# Indians: Had Enough of the Mythology?



## PoliticalChic (Nov 3, 2014)

_ Mad_Cabbie 
Dedicated to my pal, Mad Cabbie, who posted the following:_

_"I'm sorry, this aspect I do not agree with. [that the Indian's was a destructive culture.]

"Indians" brought AIDS here? How?

I seem to recall setters bring smallpox and other devastating illnesses with them to this country.

How about slavery? rampant crime?

Before the settlers, the rivers were full of fishes and air was clean.


Sorry, in my life experiences, the simpler cultures always seemed to share the more "civilized" attitudes.

It was often common bushmen, that "did the right thing" whenever given the chance."_
*Thus spake the Crazy Cabister!*




And it was an excellent exposition of the insanity known as Liberalism!

*It infuses the primitives who happened to inhabit, in a nomadic sort of way, North America, with a sanctified nature that they did not have, and a reputation that they did not deserve.
And attacks the folks who conquered the continent, and made it what it is!*




Difficult though it may be...I accept the challenge;* I will correct those misapprehensions!*

1. _"Indians" brought AIDS here? How?"
There is no way to fathom this inanity.....as far as I know, *no one has claimed that 'Indians bought AIDS here.'*

But this seems to be related, in a most tortuous way, as some sort of counter-charge, to the often quoted libel that *the early settlers visited 'genocide' upon 'Native Americans.'*
_
*Never happened.*
_

a.  Genocide means deliberate and systematic. As described by the UN Convention, Article II, it involves “ a series of brutal acts committed with* intent *to destroy, …a national, ethnical, racial, or religious group as such.”

No such thing happened.

What did happen was the result of the Indian's lack of immunity to diseases that Europeans lived with for centuries. The spread was *entirely inadvertent,* but certainly tragic.


b. " However, the arrival of the white man precipitated what was probably the worst
demographic disaster in history. It was *not warfare but disease* which played the major part.The Indians had no resistance to tuberculosis, pneumonia, cholera, typhus, smallpox and other European ailments, with the result that their population declined by about 90 per cent between 1492 and 1650, disappearing altogether in some areas." 
"Wild in Woods: The Myth of the Noble Eco-Savage,' by Robert Whelan, p.29-30 





2. Let's review:
a. So....*there is no claim that the Indians 'brought AIDS here*,' 
b.....but there is, also, *no truth to any claim of genocide *by the Europeans.  

And, if you believe otherwise, you must believe that:
".... the Black Death ....[which]  killed 30–60% of Europe's total population.[7]In total, the plague reduced the world populationfrom an estimated 450 million down to 350–375 million in the 14th century..."http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Death.


..was genocide by planned and carried out by Africans, as the origin of the Bubonic Plague, visited upon innocent Europeans. .was in North Africa.


So much for the first charge: stay tuned- in the next chapter: How the Native Americans got even!_


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## Mad_Cabbie (Nov 3, 2014)

Thanks for the "mad" props, gal! 

As a Commie, Muslim, Marxist who is bent on destroying America, I must say that your posts give me the perfect opportunity to attack conservatism HEAD ON!

I and my constituents, will not rest until animals pull their human pets around on leashes and toilet paper is replaced with good old dry leaves (hey, I can dream....).

I do not necessarily hold to the notion that native Americans were guiltless saints who could do no wrong, but genocide? Absolutely; to the point where there no longer are full-blooded natives left.

Did the US re-nig on just about any treaty that they ever agreed to? Of course they did.

Does that mean we should give it back? Hell no. We did what we did, but don't expect me to buy into the "poor hapless settlers" or "those godless heathen Injun's."


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## Pogo (Nov 3, 2014)

PoliticalChic said:


> _  [
> a.  Genocide means deliberate and systematic. As described by the UN Convention, Article II, it involves “ a series of brutal acts committed with* intent *to destroy, …a national, ethnical, racial, or religious group as such.”
> 
> No such thing happened.
> ...



Apparently PC has never heard of Jeffrey Amherst.  

If only there were some kind of, I dunno "internet" or "history book" where one could research this shit and not look like an idiot...


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## Roadrunner (Nov 3, 2014)

Mad_Cabbie said:


> Thanks for the "mad" props, gal!
> 
> As a Commie, Muslim, Marxist who is bent on destroying America, I must say that your posts give me the perfect opportunity to attack conservatism HEAD ON!
> 
> ...


They routinely tortured and even ate their enemies.

Most on East Coast were dead from disease the ill-fated Desoto expedition left behind before the English even got here.

Shit happens.

It was called the "Columbian Exchange"; plants, animals and diseases went both ways.

We got corn, they got smallpox.

We gave them pigs, we got syphilis.

Just happened that way.

That said, had the Spanish not found them sacrificing enemies and piling up skulls by the tens of thousands, it might have gone down differently.

If the Earlier Arrivals had had any solidarity, they might have presented a united front against whites.

Being more concerned with getting help against their enemies, they prostituted themselves to the Spanish to get "that tribe over the ridge".

It's all over and done with anyway; I always wonder about "Lo, the poor Indian" threads.


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## PoliticalChic (Nov 3, 2014)

Mad_Cabbie said:


> Thanks for the "mad" props, gal!
> 
> As a Commie, Muslim, Marxist who is bent on destroying America, I must say that your posts give me the perfect opportunity to attack conservatism HEAD ON!
> 
> ...





1. "I do not necessarily hold to the notion that native Americans were guiltless saints who could do no wrong, but genocide? Absolutely; to the point where there no longer are full-blooded natives left."


As a Commie, Muslim, Marxist who is bent on destroying America, most of you lack the ability to use words with precision...as I do....or, as in this case, you use words to alter the reality.


There is a definition of genocide, and this is not it: "...genocide? Absolutely; to the point where there no longer are full-blooded natives left."

The only question is, is it a lie of omission, or one of commission.

'Fess up: do you know that you are lying?



2."I do not necessarily hold to the notion that native Americans were guiltless saints..."
a. They were not 'Native"....merely a little earlier than the European settlers.
Ever hear of the Bering Straits?

b. Now you have retreated from your earlier descriptions of said Indians....but I have no intention of altering my thesis....and, today and tomorrow, I will provide the education you are so sorely lacking.



Keep that meter running, Cabbie!

More to come!


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## Roadrunner (Nov 3, 2014)

PoliticalChic said:


> Mad_Cabbie said:
> 
> 
> > Thanks for the "mad" props, gal!
> ...


DNA tests on yet to be found bones will prove Europeans came to Florida and Africans came to South America before the genocidal Asiatic hordes crossed the Bering Strait.

Bones are hard to find, because the people got eaten.


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## PoliticalChic (Nov 3, 2014)

Pogo said:


> PoliticalChic said:
> 
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> > _  [
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Apparently you are not educated to the the Amherst myth.

As a conservative is never so tall as when she stoops to educate a Liberal...I will do just that....take notes:


There is the often repeated story of Lord Jeffrey Amherst ordering the distribution of smallpox-infected blankets to the Indians, as an example of ‘germ warfare’ used by Europeans.*The story is not documented, except as a ‘possibility.*’ 
See the study of Professor d’Errico:

Historian Francis Parkman, in his book "_The Conspiracy of Pontiac and the Indian War after the Conquest of Canada," _[Boston: Little, Brown, 1886] *refers to a post script *in an earlier letter from Amherst to Bouquet wondering whether smallpox could not be spread among the Indians:

“Could it not be contrived to send the_Small Pox _among those disaffected tribes of Indians? We must on this occasion use every stratagem in our power to reduce them”. [Vol. II, p. 39 (6th edition)]


*I have not found this letter,*but there is a letter from Bouquet to Amherst, dated 23 June 1763, three weeks before the discussion of blankets to the Indians, stating that Captain Ecuyer at Fort Pitt (to which Bouquet would be heading with reinforcements) has reported smallpox in the Fort. This indicates at least that the writers knew the plan could be carried out.

It is curious that the specific plans to spread smallpox were relegated to postscripts.

"Some people have doubted these stories; other people, believing the stories, nevertheless assert that the infected blankets were not intentionally distributed to the Indians, or that Lord Jeff himself is not to blame for the germ warfare tactic." 
Amherst and Smallpox



Did you get that?

"...*I have not found this letter,..."

It does not exist....it is a made-up tale found useful by Liberals to paint a dark picture of Americans.


Liberals do so all the time.
There was Emory University Professor *
Michael Bellesiles’ "Arming America: The Origins of a National Gun
*Culture (Knopf, 2000)"  in which he attacked the 2nd amendment, claiming that colonials had no guns.

 It was a fraud....he was fired....made it up.....just as the Amherst tale is made up.



Wait....did you write: "If only there were some kind of, I dunno "internet" or "history book" where one could research this shit and not look like an idiot..."

Priceless.*


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## Mad_Cabbie (Nov 3, 2014)

I'm no liar, hate to disappoint you. 

Yes, it was genocide, just not by your definition. 

They did it too? Oy, this will take a while....


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## Pogo (Nov 3, 2014)

A Jeffrey Amherst Denier  

I suppose it was only a matter of time.  Ministry of Truth and all that.
Want to try again with Columbus and the Arawaks?  That's documented too...


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## Mad_Cabbie (Nov 3, 2014)

PC, we were just swell to the Indians. 

We never did anything to them -- they killed themselves off.


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## Camp (Nov 3, 2014)

history.org/Foundation/journal/Spring04/warfare.cfm

Here is what these guys have to say about the topic of germ warfare during the period being discussed.


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## PoliticalChic (Nov 3, 2014)

Mad_Cabbie said:


> I'm no liar, hate to disappoint you.
> 
> I'm no liar, hate to disappoint you.
> 
> They did it too? Oy, this will take a while....




1. "I'm no liar, hate to disappoint you."
Of course I'm not disappointed: I hate liars.
Sadly the choice was 'liar' or 'stupid.'
Uh, oh!

2. "I'm no liar, hate to disappoint you."
Wrong.
I


Mad_Cabbie said:


> I'm no liar, hate to disappoint you.
> 
> Yes, it was genocide, just not by your definition.
> 
> They did it too? Oy, this will take a while....




1. "I'm no liar, hate to disappoint you."
Of course I'm not disappointed: I hate liars.
Sadly the choice was 'liar' or 'stupid.'
Uh, oh!


2." Yes, it was genocide, just not by your definition."
Wrong.
a. It wasn't 'genocide.'
b. As I stated...it is not MY definition....it is the internationally accepted definition.


3." They did it too? Oy, this will take a while."

So....you are ready to claim that the Black Plague was "genocide"?
"Deaths due to Bubonic Plague: 75 million to 200 million in the 14th century alone."
The Death Toll Comparison Breakdown Wait But Why

That would pretty much identify you as a dope, wouldn't it.


There is no doubt that exploration and habitation by Europeans resulted in huge number of Indian deaths, *caused by diseases to which they had no resistance.*


But *it is a lie*...a politically determined fabrication....to claim that it was planned or even anticipated in any way.



Of course, if one is insistent upon excoriating the explorers and the settlers for infecting natives, remember *the gift that the Native Americans accorded the Europeans, and the world in general: Treponema pallidum.*




3. "The exact origin of syphilis is disputed.[4]Syphilis was indisputably present in the Americas before European contact. The dispute is over whether or not syphilis was also present elsewhere in the world at that time. One of the two primary hypotheses proposes that* syphilis was carried from the Americas to Europe by the returning crewmen from Christopher Columbus's voyage to the Americas. *The other hypothesis says that syphilis existed in Europe previously, but went unrecognized until shortly after Columbus' return. These are referred to as the _Columbian _and _pre-Columbian _hypotheses, respectively.[15]


*The Columbian hypothesis is best supported by the available evidence*.[35][36]


The first written records of an outbreak of syphilis in Europe occurred in 1494 or 1495 in Naples, Italy, during a French invasion (Italian War of 1494–98).[13][15]Due to its being spread by returning French troops, it was initially known as the "French disease."[_citation needed_]In 1530, the name "syphilis" was first used by the Italian physician and poetGirolamo Fracastoroas the title of hisLatinpoem in dactylic hexameter describing the ravages of the disease in Italy.[37]It was also known historically as the "Great Pox".[38][39]"
Syphilis - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia



a. "*Skeletal evidence that reputedly showed signs of syphilis in Europe and other parts of the Old World before Christopher Columbus made his voyage in 1492 does not hold up when subjected to standardized analyses* for diagnosis and dating, according to an appraisal in the current Yearbook of Physical Anthropology. This is the first time that all 54 previously published cases have been evaluated systematically, and bolsters the case that syphilis came from the New World."
History of syphilis - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia


b. " Syphilis reached* epidemic proportions *in 1495 amongst French soldiers waging war in Naples. Within two years the disease was known the world over.* The disease struck humankind as something completely new, and incredibly devastating." *4.1 Famous Diseases in History


c. "Untreated, it has* a mortality of 8% to 58%, with a greater death rate in males.*[4]The symptoms of syphilis have become less severe over the 19th and 20th centuries, in part due to widespread availability of effective treatment and partly due to decreasingvirulenceof the spirochaete.[9]With early treatment, few complications result.[8]Syphilis increases the risk of HIV transmission by two to five times, and coinfection is common (30–60% in a number of urban centers).[4][5]"
Syphilis - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia



So....by Liberal logic, those dastardly Indians planned and carried out this "genocide" of infecting the world with syphilis.


That's your belief?

Speak up!


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## PoliticalChic (Nov 3, 2014)

Pogo said:


> A Jeffrey Amherst Denier
> 
> I suppose it was only a matter of time.  Ministry of Truth and all that.
> Want to try again with Columbus and the Arawaks?  That's documented too...






Denier????

I just provided prof of two things: my statement, and....that you are a fool.

The only thing "documented" is that you've been proven to be a dope.

I loved smashing that custard pie in your kisser!


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## PoliticalChic (Nov 3, 2014)

Mad_Cabbie said:


> PC, we were just swell to the Indians.
> 
> We never did anything to them -- they killed themselves off.





Don't rush me!

Like the mills of the gods, I grind slowly, but exceedingly fine.

And I always give 100%....except when I'm donating blood.

I'm gonna take the Liberal wall of propaganda apart.....brick by brick.


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## PoliticalChic (Nov 3, 2014)

Camp said:


> history.org/Foundation/journal/Spring04/warfare.cfm
> 
> Here is what these guys have to say about the topic of germ warfare during the period being discussed.




By now you should have realized that I'm never wrong.

Gill's work is based on the lies of Francis Parkman.

" At that moment, the "new Indian history" that has revolutionized early American scholarship was just coming into its own, and its most vociferous advocate, Francis Jennings, dealt Parkman a death blow in a critical essay published in 1985. Two years earlier, the Library of America had unearthed Parkman's writings from the seventeen volumes of the nineteenth-century Frontenac edition and re-embalmed them in a new two-volume set, weighing in at over three thousand pages. Jennings countered the canonical authority of the Library of America imprimatur with an assault on *Parkman's much vaunted historical accuracy—"his 'facts' cannot be relied on and are sometimes fabricated"—and on the assumptions, biases, and outright prejudices that "poisoned" his approach to the past."
Common-place How and Why to Read Francis Parkman*


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## Camp (Nov 3, 2014)

PoliticalChic said:


> Camp said:
> 
> 
> > history.org/Foundation/journal/Spring04/warfare.cfm
> ...


Actually, your nutty theses are almost always exposed as nutty within the first few pages of the thread. Usually for the same reason this one is being shown to be nutty. You are taking both Gill's and Jennings's writings out of context and cherry picking quotes to fit your agenda, while ignoring the fuller content and conclusions of the authors. Gill is giving an overall view of germ warfare during the colonial period that allows the reader to make their own conclusions about Parkman's assessment of the Fort Pitt incident.  Jennings challenged Parkman's conclusions 30 years ago in an essay, but Parkman's conclusions are still generally used and accepted today by historians.


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## PoliticalChic (Nov 3, 2014)

Camp said:


> PoliticalChic said:
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> > Camp said:
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How simple is it to prove you to be a moron?

This simple: Parkman himself says he couldn't find the supposed letter that proves the slander.....but goes on to make the fabricated argument.

So...what sort of moron accepts and advances the lie????

Raise your paw.


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## PoliticalChic (Nov 3, 2014)

OK....enough chit-chat: back to job one- dismantling the nonsense that Cabbie believes about the imaginary 'Noble Savages.'


4. Now, the peripatetic one, who started this brawl, carried on about Europeans introducing slavery:* "How about slavery?"*


Another sign of both a lack of education, and* a child-like willingness to infer a nobility, i.e., "the Noble Savage," that did not exist.*


a. " Black slavery in America usually evokes images of the antebellum South, but few realize that members of the Five* Civilized Tribes-*-the Cherokees, Choctaws, Chickasaws, Creeks, and Seminoles--in Indian Territory, today's Oklahoma,* also had slaves.* Like their counterparts in the South, Indian slaveholders feared slave revolts. Those fears came true in 1842 when slaves in the Cherokee Nation made a daring dash for freedom.

By 1860, the *Cherokees had 4,600 slaves; the Choctaws, 2,344; the Creeks, 1,532; the Chickasaws, 975; and the Seminoles, 500. Some Indian slave owners were as harsh and cruel as any white slave master*. Indians were often hired to catch runaway slaves; in fact, slave-catching was a lucrative way of life for some Indians, especially the Chickasaws." SLAVE REVOLT OF 1842





5. But....but...the Indians were so 'noble'.... did they begin slavery because they learned it from those mean-spirited whites???

Hardly.

a. "Some Native American tribes* held war captives as slaves prior to and during European colonization, *some Native Americans were captured and sold by others into slavery to Europeans, .... *Many Native American tribes practiced some form of slavery before the European introduction of African slavery *into North America; but none exploited slave labor on a large scale.[2]

Native American groups often enslaved war captives whom they primarily used for small-scale labor.[2]*Some, however, were used in ritual sacrifice*.[2]While little is known, there is little evidence that the slaveholders considered the slaves as racially inferior; they came from other Native American tribes and were casualties of war.[2]" Slavery among Native Americans in the United States - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia



b.  August 30, 1813 The Fort Mims Massacre. ( Baldwin County, Alabama) Fort Mims was a simple stockade in which about 550  white civilians and mixed-blood Creeks and 120 militiamen and about 300 slaves took refuge from a thousand Red Stick Creeks commanded by Red Eagle (William Weatherford, who had chosen his mother’s family over his father’s) and another part-Indian named Paddy Welsh, systematically butchered the White inhabitants: White children had their brains splattered against the fort’s stockade, pregnant women were sliced open and their fetuses ripped from their wombs, and over 250 scalps taken. *The blacks were spared to become slaves to the attackers.*
Fort Mims-Brutal Massacre During the Creek War




" The blacks were spared to become...." *What????


So....slavery was not brought to the Indians by the whites.

One more charge eradicated.


Bearing up, Cabbie???*


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## PoliticalChic (Nov 3, 2014)

6. At the heart of the beliefs of our gullible colleagues is* the image of Indians* in the mold of Hiawatha, of Longfellow's epic poem...*.the noble, fearless hunter, who made bonds with all the animals of the forest, and maintained nature as he found it.....*

This version,  from the less than astute Cabette: "_Before the settlers, the rivers were full of fishes and air was clean."_

The myth of the Noble Savage, i.e., one who understood nature and *lived in harmony with Mother Earth.*


Puhhhleeeeezzzzzzze!


a. Let's start with the fastest way to destroy natural surroundings...* forest fires:* how many times have we heard that such a destructive attitude towards the environment is the product of Western man’s alienation from nature?

*American Indians were forest-burners par excellence*:it was not the forests which impressed the early settlers but the absence of them.

Thomas Morton, a Puritan, wrote in 1637:

"...*the Savages are accustomed to set fire* of the Country in all places where they come, and to burne it twize a year, vixe at the Spring, and the fall of the leafe. The reason that mooves them to doe so, is because it would other wise be a coppice wood, and the people would not be able in any wise to passe through the Country out of a beaten path." 
Morton, T., "New English Canaan: or, New Canaan, 1637," rpt. pp.52-4, quoted in Chase, " Playing God in Yellowstone: The Destruction of America's First National Park," p. 94.


b. * They hated the forests..*.they burned them down so they could see the animals they hunted. " Once the forests have been burnt, however, and the land transformed to grasslands and savannah, these desirable species become available. The species which the Indians most wanted to hunt, like bison, moose, elk and deer, are found most easily in areas of recently burnt forest, which is why they burnt the forests over and over again." 
Chase, Op. Cit.

OK....so....Hiawatha exists only in your fevered imagination.




I have given some thought to why we often see the* refusal by the Left to accept reality.*... and I think we need to consider the origins of left-wing theology to understand same. Georges Sorel, " His notion of *the power of myth* in people's lives inspired Marxists and Fascists, it is, together with his defense of violence, the contribution for which he is most often remembered."  
Georges Sorel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Considered a father of syndicalism, early socialism, fascism and progressivism, his contribution was the idea of* the believable, motivational lie, or myth.*
The "Noble Savage" concept is true if it validates the idea that the Founders, and early colonists were terrible people, and only ceases to be true when it no longer serves that limitless purpose.


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## Ravi (Nov 3, 2014)

Difference being that Native Americans didn't enslave people based on race.


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## PoliticalChic (Nov 3, 2014)

Ravi said:


> Difference being that Native Americans didn't enslave people based on race.




So....some kinds of slavery is acceptable to you?

You're not able to condemn slavery categorically???


What the heck is wrong with you????


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## Ravi (Nov 3, 2014)

PoliticalChic said:


> Ravi said:
> 
> 
> > Difference being that Native Americans didn't enslave people based on race.
> ...


No, some forms of slavery are worse than others because it dehumanizes an entire race.


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## PoliticalChic (Nov 3, 2014)

Ravi said:


> PoliticalChic said:
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> > Ravi said:
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That's absurd.
It's so stupid that I'm sure you'd like to retract it, in light of the following:
"1. About 25 miles West of Amstetten, on the Danube, was the town of Mauthausen. Prisoners from the* concentration camp at Dachau * had been sent to build a much larger facility where political prisoners could be held. The state owned Mauthausen expanded, and by 1944, it was grouped with nearby Gusen, as *a commercial enterprise.*

The German mining company DEST, used the *prisoners as slave labor, to work in the quarries, or to be hired out to local manufacturers and farmers. The Amstetten railway network came in handy to transport the slaves.*
The labor supply was inexhaustible…and when a prisoner’s productivity dropped, they would simply be transported to Mauthausen-Gusen and *killed."*
Stefanie Marsh and Bohan Pancevski, “I’m No Monster.”


So....this slavery is not high on your list of savagery.



2. What is important here is that I've shown that slavery was as much a part of Indian culture as any other culture.


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## Ravi (Nov 3, 2014)

PoliticalChic said:


> Ravi said:
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That was genocide. What WE did was wrong, what the German's did was worse, and what the NAs did didn't touch either.


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## PoliticalChic (Nov 3, 2014)

"It was a hugely profitable death camp and the only camp designated Grade III  (“incorrigible enemies of the Reich ). The motto was ‘Vernichtung durch Arbeit (“Extermination through Work”)
*Far beyond Jews, the camp included communists, socialists, Polish boy scouts, homosexuals, Romanies, Jehovah’s Witnesses, anarchists, Spanish Republicans who had fled Franco.*
In 1943, life expectancy in the camps was 6 months; by war’s end it was 3 months.

Slave labor was responsible for construction of Austria’s largest steelworks and Steyr munitons, Puch automobiles, and most businesses in Amstetten."                         Ibid.

I can't imagine anyone excusing any kind of slavery.


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## Ravi (Nov 3, 2014)

PoliticalChic said:


> "It was a hugely profitable death camp and the only camp designated Grade III  (“incorrigible enemies of the Reich ). The motto was ‘Vernichtung durch Arbeit (“Extermination through Work”)
> *Far beyond Jews, the camp included communists, socialists, Polish boy scouts, homosexuals, Romanies, Jehovah’s Witnesses, anarchists, Spanish Republicans who had fled Franco.*
> In 1943, life expectancy in the camps was 6 months; by war’s end it was 3 months.
> 
> ...


I can't either, and yet here you are excusing the German genocide of Jews.


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## PoliticalChic (Nov 3, 2014)

This is a teachable moment.

Here we find sister *Ravi making allowances for one group that had slaves,* but not others....

Let's stipulate that Ravi considers slavery by Indians as not close to the slavery of plantation owners, or Nazi industrialitsts.

She said "What WE did was wrong, what the German's did was worse, and what the NAs did didn't touch either."


1. I don't know who the "we" is....whites? Americans? Europeans? Other blacks? All of whom owned slaves.
But not Indians who were slave owners......?
No logic there;



2. See...here is the corner Liberals paint themselves into: *Liberals cannot have principles.
*
They find themselves making allowances and excuses for 'authenitic' groups, or recognized groups....or groups whose support they seek, but cannot condemn misbehavior of said groups.
*Under Liberalism there can never be justice.*


3  "*If “fairness” is associated with group-identity,*with all of the associated accommodations, law will be reduced to constant petition of government for special and specific exemptions from justice.*Law, to be just, but be written and carried out in ignorance of the identity of its claimants."
David Mamet*


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## PoliticalChic (Nov 3, 2014)

Ravi said:


> PoliticalChic said:
> 
> 
> > "It was a hugely profitable death camp and the only camp designated Grade III  (“incorrigible enemies of the Reich ). The motto was ‘Vernichtung durch Arbeit (“Extermination through Work”)
> ...





I did no such thing.

You must be so ashamed of what you wrote, that you're reduced to lying about me.


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## Ravi (Nov 3, 2014)

Nope, when you post "far beyond Jews" you are aiming to belittle the genocide committed against them.


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## Ravi (Nov 3, 2014)

Let it be noted that PC thinks enslaving black people is a-okay.


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## Camp (Nov 3, 2014)

PoliticalChic said:


> Camp said:
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You are distorting the critics of Parkman's assessment and ignoring the supporting documents and evidence used by him and others to reach his conclusions. Here is another link that explains how those conclusions and a detailed list, with links to the evidence that makes your conclusion on this portion of your thesis look so ridiculous. Included in this link are links to micro film image's to the actual supporting letters that became the basis of Parkman's conclusions. The original letters are still in existence.
You are attempting to stereotype 400 years of history, hundreds of distinct tribes and cultures, a dozen European conquerors and a thousand historians into a silly thesis that ignores factual data that has been available to historians for hundreds of years. The topic of Amherst, Fort Pitt and small pox is just one tiny slice of that history, but one you haven't gotten right. Instead of accepting documents that are hundreds of years old you have chosen to base your thesis on an essay written in 1985 that doesn't even support your thesis the way you present it when it is taken in whole and reviewed in an objective way.

umass.edu/legal/derrico/amherst/lord_jeff.html


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## PoliticalChic (Nov 3, 2014)

Ravi said:


> Nope, when you post "far beyond Jews" you are aiming to belittle the genocide committed against them.




You're really embarrassed, aren't you.
And, you should be.

BTW...those are quotes from the book, as noted.


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## PoliticalChic (Nov 3, 2014)

Ravi said:


> Let it be noted that PC thinks enslaving black people is a-okay.




Another thing about Liberals like you....they lie.
As above.


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## PoliticalChic (Nov 3, 2014)

Camp said:


> PoliticalChic said:
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> > Camp said:
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"You are distorting the critics of Parkman's assessment...."

Liar.

Your English lesson for today...."distort: To give a false or misleading account of; misrepresent."


Parkman quotes a letter saying :“Could it not be contrived to send the _Small Pox _among those disaffected tribes of Indians? We must on this occasion use every stratagem in our power to reduce them”. [Vol. II, p. 39 (6th edition)]

*But then he says: "I have not found this letter..."*
*
That ends his credibility.

You never had any to lose.


Distort???
You moron, how is "I have not found this letter..." distorted??

What could it mean other than the clear and obvious meaning??

*
So typical of Liberals, lying or agreeing to lies.
As long as it slanders anyone they disagree with...
Bet you also believe that J.Edgar Hoover wore a dress.
*
*


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## koshergrl (Nov 3, 2014)

People who have limited understanding of native cultures tend to romanticize them and think they were a lot more *civilized* than they actually were/are.


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## koshergrl (Nov 3, 2014)

I think it's an innate racism..they associate the natives with innocent animals, instead of recognizing their humanity...with all it's flaws.

They were just human. And they did some pretty atrocious things. Ultimately, they were conquered. It doesn't mean they were *nicer* than the people who conquered them. It just means they were weaker.


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## Camp (Nov 3, 2014)

PoliticalChic said:


> Camp said:
> 
> 
> > PoliticalChic said:
> ...


He admits that he did not find the letter. So he isn't lying, he is being honest. He explains how he reached his conclusion that the rumored letter was real by referring to supporting documents. Other officers in Amherst's command wrote about the topic in question. You distort by not including the documents and evidence with your analysis. You have cherry picked the Parkman quote and use it by itself without including pertinent other quotes. You are distorting by omission of factual data that changes the whole nature of your claim. You accuse the author of lying when he in fact pointed out that his claim was a speculation and conclusion reached dependent of corroborating evidence and documents. You ignore those facts and instead call him a liar. You use that claim to declare victory and the rightness of your thesis. You claim you caught a historian lying, therefore, you claim you are right. Problem is you didn't catch the historian lying and someone caught you lying instead. Worse, someone posted indisputable academic factual data from a recognized University to prove your thesis is based on BullCr-p.


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## PoliticalChic (Nov 3, 2014)

Hopefully, even our dense pal Cabbie can begin to understand how fictional his image of the Indian is.

Hopefully.

Now...one more note on how erroneous view of the *Indians as caretaker of the natural environment is....*



7. Of course, if one gets their view of history from Kevin Costner’s 'Dances with Wolves,' and of the Disney cartoon 'Pocahontas,' with its* nature-loving Indians* and destructive British settlers, or Liberal universities (redundant?) they probably believe that Indians sent *smoke signals* to each other by waving a blanket over a campfire. The reality was more dramatic: while the Indians regularly used fire to communicate with each other,* they wouldn't bother to burn anything less than an entire hillside. * Budiansnky, S., "Nature’s Keepers: The New Science of Nature Management," p.107.


a. Lewis and Clark, in the first serious study of Native American lifestyles at the beginning of the nineteenth century, wrote that *Indians in the Rocky Mountains would set trees alight ‘as after-dinner entertainment; *the huge trees would explode like Roman candles in the night.'  
Ibid.


b. Now...get this study:
B.L. Turner and Karl Butzer wrote an article for Environment in which they looked at the extent to which evidence supports the view that the American Indians, prior to Columbus, lived in a state of minimal interference with nature. The found the very opposite!!!
These are their conclusions with regard to the forests of America:

· *Deforestation* in the Americas was probably greater before the Columbian encounter than it was for several centuries thereafter

· Many of the primeval forests that we supposedly encountered by the Europeans in 1492 and that remain today, including forests with the highest biodiversity, were not ‘pristine’ or ‘virgin’ but were the product of extensive use and* modification by Amerindians*

·* The scale of deforestation, or forest modification,* in the American tropics has only recently begun to rival that undertaken prior to the Columbian encounter.   Turner, B.L. and Butzer, K.W., 'The Columbian Encounter and Land-Use Change', in Environment, Vol 34 No 8, October 1992, p.42.




These savages are the* caretakers of nature?*????

*Does burning it to the ground constitute living in harmony with nature????


So....
a. there was no genocide.
b. they owned slaves
c. they destroyed the environment



More tomorrow.*


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## PoliticalChic (Nov 3, 2014)

Camp said:


> PoliticalChic said:
> 
> 
> > Camp said:
> ...





OK...you're a liar, too.

Feel better?


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## initforme (Nov 3, 2014)

As far as I am concerned I would say most all slave owners were mean and mistreated their slaves miserably. That goes for any of our founding fathers and presidents who owned them. Too lazy to do their own work.  This pc u cannot debate.


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## Ravi (Nov 4, 2014)

PoliticalChic said:


> Ravi said:
> 
> 
> > Let it be noted that PC thinks enslaving black people is a-okay.
> ...


You aren't fooling anyone. You are implying that because NAs enslaved people the US is excused for enslaving black people.


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## PoliticalChic (Nov 4, 2014)

Ravi said:


> PoliticalChic said:
> 
> 
> > Ravi said:
> ...






You aren't fooling anyone: you're a moron.


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## JoeB131 (Nov 4, 2014)

Mad_Cabbie said:


> PC, we were just swell to the Indians.
> 
> We never did anything to them -- they killed themselves off.



It was mass suicide, when they realized they weren't as cool as white people.  

PC wishes she was as cool as white people.


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## JoeB131 (Nov 4, 2014)

koshergrl said:


> I think it's an innate racism..they associate the natives with innocent animals, instead of recognizing their humanity...with all it's flaws.
> 
> They were just human. And they did some pretty atrocious things. Ultimately, they were conquered. It doesn't mean they were *nicer* than the people who conquered them. It just means they were weaker.



so by the logic of the strong can kill the weak, we can expect you to stop whining about abortion, then? 

Be still my beating heart!


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## PoliticalChic (Nov 4, 2014)

JoeB131 said:


> Mad_Cabbie said:
> 
> 
> > PC, we were just swell to the Indians.
> ...




Bro....I am cooler than the other side of the pillow.


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## PoliticalChic (Nov 4, 2014)

JoeB131 said:


> koshergrl said:
> 
> 
> > I think it's an innate racism..they associate the natives with innocent animals, instead of recognizing their humanity...with all it's flaws.
> ...




So....the Africans committed genocide on the poor, innocent, unsuspecting Europeans by sending Bubonic Plague....??


You're a history-challenged moron.


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## PoliticalChic (Nov 4, 2014)

Now...back to the theme.....the stupidity of the Left, exemplified by their *romanticized version of the American Indian.*







8. "According to* the myth of the noble eco-savage, indigenous peoples live in such a sympathetic relationship with the ecosystem *that they only kill for their immediate needs, and never on a scale likely to drive species to extinction.... In fact, these ‘cultural mechanisms’ exist primarily in t*he minds of Western environmentalists.*

It is difficult to find any evidence of them amongst the tribal peoples, either now or in the past.... The aim was to* kill as much as possible *as quickly as possible, with the minimum risk to the hunter. There was *no concern for conserving* future stocks, nor for taking only as much as was necessary to meet present needs." 
 Whelan, "Wild in the Woods: The Myth of the Noble Eco-Savage"



A favorite Indian device was the ‘jump’, which meant *stampeding herds of animals* over a cliff, so that the fall would kill them, described in "Playing God in Yellowstone," by Alston Chase.

"The Vore buffalo jump site in Wyoming...was used five times between 1550 and 1690, and holds the remains of 20,000 buffalo. That means 4,000 or more buffalo were killed each time the jump was used. Other buffalo jumps in the West display* the remains of as many as 300,000 buffalo. These sites were so numerous,* in fact, and held such large deposits of bone, that for many years they were mined as a source of phosphorus for fertilizer!"   
Frison, G.C., "Prehistoric Hunters of the High Plains," pp.239-44

Large amounts of *meat were left to rot and herds of animals were decimated, and sometimes driven to local extinction*. Buffalo and antelope traps killed so many that it took the herds decades to recover.





And so...as the sun sets over this mysterious land, we say good-bye to the 'Noble Savage,' who is too busy to say good-bye.....

...he's busy *burning down forests, and destroying every animal he can find.*


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## Ravi (Nov 4, 2014)

The entire idea of the "noble savage" as applied to Native Americans was pretty much the Europeans claimed that the Native Americans were actually ignoble savages to justify their systematic destruction of the tribes in America when they landed and in fact after the US was born.

No one believes that somehow NAs were perfect people and in fact they are just like everyone else. Some good, some bad. The entire argument is nothing but a strawman.


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## PoliticalChic (Nov 4, 2014)

Ravi said:


> The entire idea of the "noble savage" as applied to Native Americans was pretty much the Europeans claimed that the Native Americans were actually ignoble savages to justify their systematic destruction of the tribes in America when they landed and in fact after the US was born.
> 
> No one believes that somehow NAs were perfect people and in fact they are just like everyone else. Some good, some bad. The entire argument is nothing but a strawman.




Cabbie believed it.


Good to see I was able to drag you, kicking and screaming, to the correct view.


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## Ravi (Nov 4, 2014)

PoliticalChic said:


> Ravi said:
> 
> 
> > The entire idea of the "noble savage" as applied to Native Americans was pretty much the Europeans claimed that the Native Americans were actually ignoble savages to justify their systematic destruction of the tribes in America when they landed and in fact after the US was born.
> ...


No, he said they weren't a destructive culture. And in fact, compared to modern day civilization, they weren't. That doesn't mean they weren't guilty of mismanaging nature in some instances.


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## PoliticalChic (Nov 4, 2014)

Ravi said:


> PoliticalChic said:
> 
> 
> > Ravi said:
> ...




Good start.

Perhaps today you'd like to go further, and recognize that the slavery that they practiced was as bad as any other cultures that practiced slavery.


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## Ravi (Nov 4, 2014)

PoliticalChic said:


> Ravi said:
> 
> 
> > PoliticalChic said:
> ...


Nope. If they only enslaved whitey, you'd have a point.


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## Mad_Cabbie (Nov 4, 2014)

PoliticalChic said:


> Ravi said:
> 
> 
> > PoliticalChic said:
> ...



They certainly did. 

It does not justify displacing them so that we could turn north America into Wally-World, though. 

Like I said before, people are people; none are inherently "better" than anyone else by virtue of their color.


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## PoliticalChic (Nov 4, 2014)

Mad_Cabbie said:


> PoliticalChic said:
> 
> 
> > Ravi said:
> ...





The fact that you're attempting to drag a red herring through the idea of 'color' must mean that you're actually learning.


This may be one of the more amusing attempts at deflection:
"...displacing them so that we could turn north America into Wally-World,..."

Folks do that when they know they've been caught.

Luckily for you, I throw 'em back after I catch 'em.


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## PoliticalChic (Nov 4, 2014)

PoliticalChic said:


> Mad_Cabbie said:
> 
> 
> > PoliticalChic said:
> ...





Now....not to let you change the direction, this thread is and will continue to eviscerate your absurd notions about the Indians.

It will set the truth out...and you can learn from it or not.

Notice....I quote you extensively.

Try to do so with me....you won't find any quotes about 'color' or 'displacing.'


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## Valerie (Nov 4, 2014)

Ravi said:


> The entire idea of the "noble savage" as applied to Native Americans was pretty much the Europeans claimed that the Native Americans were actually ignoble savages to justify their systematic destruction of the tribes in America when they landed and in fact after the US was born.
> 
> No one believes that somehow NAs were perfect people and in fact they are just like everyone else. Some good, some bad.*
> 
> The entire argument is nothing but a strawman.*




  speaking of mythology...


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## Valerie (Nov 4, 2014)

( "Cabbie believed it." )


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## PoliticalChic (Nov 4, 2014)

Valerie said:


> Ravi said:
> 
> 
> > The entire idea of the "noble savage" as applied to Native Americans was pretty much the Europeans claimed that the Native Americans were actually ignoble savages to justify their systematic destruction of the tribes in America when they landed and in fact after the US was born.
> ...







You must be simply exhausted....what with the sort of effort in your non-post.

Nothing's changed, huh?


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## Ravi (Nov 4, 2014)

Valerie said:


> Ravi said:
> 
> 
> > The entire idea of the "noble savage" as applied to Native Americans was pretty much the Europeans claimed that the Native Americans were actually ignoble savages to justify their systematic destruction of the tribes in America when they landed and in fact after the US was born.
> ...


PC tries to defeat strawmen just like the Europeans tried to defeat Native Americans. The Europeans had more success.


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## Valerie (Nov 4, 2014)

Valerie said:


> Ravi said:
> 
> 
> > The entire idea of the "noble savage" as applied to Native Americans was pretty much the Europeans claimed that the Native Americans were actually ignoble savages to justify their systematic destruction of the tribes in America when they landed and in fact after the US was born.
> ...





Ravi said:


> PC tries to defeat strawmen just like the Europeans tried to defeat Native Americans. The Europeans had more success.




  he must be projecting about all that "exhaustion"...


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## PoliticalChic (Nov 4, 2014)

Who was the dolt who said "_ Before the settlers, the rivers were full of fishes and air was clean."  _??????
Cabbie????
Again?







9. These 'Noble *Savages' were responsible for the extinction of a number of animals.*

‘One successful kill of a number of adult animals,’ wrote Wright, describing the effects on the ecosystem of a jump near Jackson Hole, ‘would have* reduced the breeding potential of the local [bison] herd to a level where it was no longer a significant part of the valley ecosystem.'* 
Chase, Op.Cit., p. 99-100

"*Until ten thousand years ago an incredible bestiary of mammals roamed North America.*
These were the so-called mega-fauna, an exotic menagerie that included the woollymammoth, saber-toothed tiger, giant sloth, giant beaver, camel, horse, two-toed horse, and dire wolf. These were the dominant fauna on this continent for tens of millions of years. Then suddenly and mysteriously they disappeared." 
 Ibid.
Now...who could have destroyed all those animals??
There is no evidence of changing climate or habitat....



10. What happens to* stone-age mentalities when they destroy the natural resources*?

" When Lewis and Clark first met the Shoshone in 1805, they were starving. Their chieftold the explorers they had ‘nothing but berries to eat’...Another explorer, visiting the Lemhi...in 1811, described them as *‘the poorest and most miserable nation I everbeheld; having scarcely anything to subsist on except berries and a few fish’.*
Ibid.

a. There is no evidence that tribal peoples ever worried about extinction, or indeed had *any concept of it.* As Wallace Kaufman points out in "No Turning Back," given the opportunity,* they would pursue any prey species in whatever numbers were available, and often for reasons which were quite as frivolous* as any associated with modern consumerist societies.


Want an example of said mentality?
Women of the Crow tribe wore dresses decorated with 700 elk teeth. As there were only two of these teeth per elk, each dress each such dress represented 350 slaughtered animals.
*"The Crow Indians," *by Robert H. Lowie and Phenocia Bauerle



So much for "Noble Savages" living in harmony with nature.


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## koshergrl (Nov 4, 2014)

Ravi said:


> PoliticalChic said:
> 
> 
> > Ravi said:
> ...



Omg you ignorant plebe....they DID enslave whitey. They routinely slaughtered families and took the children as slaves. They also enslaved members of other tribes:

Cynthia Ann Parker - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

Mary Jemison - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

Sacagawea - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

Gads when I think you can't get any more stupid, you always surprise me. You should have learned this crap before you hit 2nd grade.


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## PoliticalChic (Nov 4, 2014)

koshergrl said:


> Ravi said:
> 
> 
> > PoliticalChic said:
> ...





I will be adding specifics on that before the day is done.

Although your post, and this thread, corrects the Liberal memes, they won't admit it, nor learn from it.

Something about Liberalism: it tends to make ignorance indelible.


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## whitehall (Nov 4, 2014)

The American Indians were busy committing genocide against each other before the crazy Whites showed up to furnish them with weapons that would make genocide more efficient. In modern times the Native Americans have adapted and established themselves in the gambling industry. What goes around comes around and only ignorant white liberals make a political issue about it.


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## PoliticalChic (Nov 4, 2014)

whitehall said:


> The American Indians were busy committing genocide against each other before the crazy Whites showed up to furnish them with weapons that would make genocide more efficient. In modern times the Native Americans have adapted and established themselves in the gambling industry. What goes around comes around and only ignorant white liberals make a political issue about it.




The term 'genocide' is not correct other than as an uninformed or as a colloquial term.

It only serves as a cudgel to use against early Americans.


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## Ravi (Nov 4, 2014)

PoliticalChic said:


> Who was the dolt who said "_ Before the settlers, the rivers were full of fishes and air was clean."  _??????
> Cabbie????
> Again?
> 
> ...


Dude. The saber toot tigers and the rest of those you've listed became extinct before Native Americans were Native Americans.

But wait! You are claiming mankind affects the environment! Progress!


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## Ravi (Nov 4, 2014)

koshergrl said:


> Ravi said:
> 
> 
> > PoliticalChic said:
> ...


Thanks for admitting that they didn't enslave only one race of people like the Europeans and Americans did.


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## koshergrl (Nov 4, 2014)

Nope, they were equal opportunity violent oppressors. Much like the Muslims of today. Anybody who wasn't like them was subject to torture, death, and enslavement.

Awesome! Obviously MUCH more advanced than the people who conquered them, using things like guns, and wheel-borne machinery.


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## Ravi (Nov 4, 2014)

Not all tribes were violent and not all people in different tribes were violent.

kgrill, a racist through the ages.


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## PoliticalChic (Nov 4, 2014)

11. And not just American Indians....

..*...destruction of the environment was the culture of primitives in general!*

a."...Central Mexico, where by 1519 food production pressures may have brought the Aztec civilization to the verge of collapse even without Spanish intervention. There is good evidence that severe soil erosion was already widespread, rather than just the result of subsequent European plowing, livestock, and deforestation."   
Cook, S.F., and Borah, W., "Essays in Population History," Berkeley: University of California Press, Vol 3, 1971-79, pp.129-176,


b. "Analysis of sediment in Lake Patzcuaro, west of Mexico City, by Sara O’Hara and colleagues found that, in the centuries preceding the Mayan collapse, soil erosion was occurring at extraordinarily high levels. *They concluded that this finding ‘explodes the myth that the indigenous peoples of central Mexico lived in harmony with the environment and didn’t practice environmentally damaging agriculture.'’*
Robert Whelan, Op.Cit., p. 39


c.Charles Kay argues that* Native Americans had no conservation ethic,* but rather ‘acted in ways that maximized their individual fitness *regardless of the impact on the environment’.* 
Kay, C.E., 'Aboriginal Overkill: The Role of Native Americans in Structuring Western Ecosystems', Human Nature, Vol. 5 No. 4, 1994, p.379


So....our "Noble Savage" was a destroyer of the environment in addition to all the other character flaws.



So....where, how are they comparable to the 'noble colonists' who built, cultivated, and created?


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## koshergrl (Nov 4, 2014)

Who said they were, ravtard?

You forget my children and grandchildren are Indian and Mexican.

Oh wait, never mind. It's ravtard. Liar extraordinaire. I am eternally curious about how your habitual and compulsive lying affects your personal life. It can't be in a positive way.


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## PoliticalChic (Nov 4, 2014)

Ravi said:


> Not all tribes were violent and not all people in different tribes were violent.
> 
> kgrill, a racist through the ages.






"Not all tribes were violent and not all people in different tribes were violent."

What a brilliant post!

It demonstrates......

...lots of time with the 24-hour All Cartoon Network.


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## Ravi (Nov 4, 2014)

PoliticalChic said:


> 11. And not just American Indians....
> 
> ..*...destruction of the environment was the culture of primitives in general!*
> 
> ...


Primitives? Destruction of the environment is native to all humans from the looks of things.

Way to show your ass, PC.


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## Ravi (Nov 4, 2014)

PoliticalChic said:


> Ravi said:
> 
> 
> > Not all tribes were violent and not all people in different tribes were violent.
> ...


Sorry, hon. I had to put it in simple terms so even a simpleton like yourself could understand.

Now, let's watch you fight the strawman some more


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## Valerie (Nov 4, 2014)

nothing funnier than dopes and dupes acting like they could ever 'school' ravi on anything...


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## Ravi (Nov 4, 2014)

Valerie said:


> nothing funnier than dopes and dupes acting like they could ever 'school' ravi on anything...


Someone could teach me how to change a tire. But then again, there's always AAA.


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## PoliticalChic (Nov 4, 2014)

Ravi said:


> PoliticalChic said:
> 
> 
> > Who was the dolt who said "_ Before the settlers, the rivers were full of fishes and air was clean."  _??????
> ...





"
Aww, it's so cute when you try to talk about things you don't understand.

Aww, it's so cute when you try to talk about things you don't understand.


Ravi said:


> PoliticalChic said:
> 
> 
> > Who was the dolt who said "_ Before the settlers, the rivers were full of fishes and air was clean."  _??????
> ...





"Dude. The saber toot (sic) tigers and the rest of those you've listed became extinct before Native Americans were Native Americans."

Wrong again.

The extinction of the megafauna coincides with the time the first tribes inhabited the continente.

1. "Saber-toothed cats, American lions, woolly mammoths and other giant creatures once roamed across the American landscape. However, at the end of the late Pleistocene about 12,000 years ago, these "megafauna" went extinct, a die-off called the Quaternary extinction."
Starvation Didn t Wipe Out Sabertooth Cats


2. "Prevailing ideas point to all Native Americans descending from ancient Siberians who moved across the Beringia land bridge between Asia and North America between 26,000 and 18,000 years ago. As time wore on, the thinking goes, these people spread southward and gave rise to the Native American populations encountered by European settlers centuries ago.
: History Travel Arts Science People Places Smithsonian



Perhaps you have a better memory than I......when was the last time you got anything right?


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## Valerie (Nov 4, 2014)

Ravi said:


> Valerie said:
> 
> 
> > nothing funnier than dopes and dupes acting like they could ever 'school' ravi on anything...
> ...




  good point...


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## PoliticalChic (Nov 4, 2014)

koshergrl said:


> Nope, they were equal opportunity violent oppressors. Much like the Muslims of today. Anybody who wasn't like them was subject to torture, death, and enslavement.
> 
> Awesome! Obviously MUCH more advanced than the people who conquered them, using things like guns, and wheel-borne machinery.




Just primitives being primitive.


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## PoliticalChic (Nov 4, 2014)

Valerie said:


> nothing funnier than dopes and dupes acting like they could ever 'school' ravi on anything...




You imbecile, get off your knees.

She hasn't been right once!

See if you can scrape her shoe-polish off your tongue.


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## PoliticalChic (Nov 4, 2014)

Valerie said:


> Ravi said:
> 
> 
> > Valerie said:
> ...




Yechhhhh....this is nauseating.

Have you no self respect???


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## JakeStarkey (Nov 4, 2014)

The genocide against the First Peoples annihilated 90% of more in less than 100 years, far more than the Jews in Europe during WWII, far more than Africans in the Negro Chattel Slavery in the Americas.

They were all awful and not to be understated.


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## PoliticalChic (Nov 4, 2014)

JakeStarkey said:


> The genocide against the First Peoples annihilated 90% of more in less than 100 years, far more than the Jews in Europe during WWII, far more than Africans in the Negro Chattel Slavery in the Americas.
> 
> They were all awful and not to be understated.




Perhaps you should find the actual meaning of genocide.


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## JakeStarkey (Nov 4, 2014)

Not your fascistic far right wack meaning, PC: never.


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## HereWeGoAgain (Nov 4, 2014)

PoliticalChic said:


> Ravi said:
> 
> 
> > PoliticalChic said:
> ...



  I thought this stuff was pretty much common knowledge?
Where the hell did they think the indians came from.....Cleveland?


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## Ravi (Nov 4, 2014)

Okay, my bad, the NAs were around then. But they didn't eat saber toothed tigers. Current wisdom shows that the tigers had enough to eat when they went extinct and that would mean the "theory" that the Native Americans wiped out all the big game is incorrect.


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## PoliticalChic (Nov 4, 2014)

Ravi said:


> Okay, my bad, the NAs were around then. But they didn't eat saber toothed tigers. Current wisdom shows that the tigers had enough to eat when they went extinct and that would mean the "theory" that the Native Americans wiped out all the big game is incorrect.




Nothing like the testimony of an eye witness! 

Thanks so much!


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## PoliticalChic (Nov 4, 2014)

JakeStarkey said:


> Not your fascistic far right wack meaning, PC: never.





JakeStarkey said:


> Not your fascistic far right wack meaning, PC: never.




Truly astounding how much effort ignorant individuals like you will put into remaining so.


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## PoliticalChic (Nov 4, 2014)

12. And back to the words of my muse, the Cab-jockey: 
[Wasn't it those awwwwww-ful whites who brought] *"rampant crime?"
*
_
No.  It wasn't. Any such belief is due to the Liberal insanity of not understanding human nature. Most especially*, that primitives' culture is the law of the jungle.*



a. "[Even though they had signed a treaty,] the Cheyennes, viewed the railroads as a threat to the buffalo herds, continued, along with Arapahos and Sioux, _*attacking every station *_for 100 miles on either side of Fort Wallace. A force of two to three hundred attacked Pond Creek Station. "... this little stage stop saw so many Indian attacks that Camp Pond Creek, a military encampment, was situated right next to it." Life at Fort Wallace


b. "...The Apache is *hostile to all white settlers....."*
Annual Report of hte Secretary of War for the year 1867
Annual report of the Secretary of War. 1866 67. - Full View HathiTrust Digital Library HathiTrust Digital Library





13. Nor were the whites the only targets.

"...the Five Civilized Tribes of Indian Territory- the Cherokees, Choctaws, Chickasaws, Creeks, and Seminoles- *suffered heavily from Kiowa and Comanche raiders...." *



This telegram from the Texas Governor to Washington asked for troops to protect the civilized tribes from the rapacious ones....


a. " J. W. Throckmorton, Governor of Texas. ( Telegram.) to the War Department, Washington City, )
*This carnival of crime,* of infamous villianies, of brutal murders and revolting outrages.... a long array of facts  showing the character and dreadful results of similar *raids upon the settlers of Texas by Indians* living in Mexico, ....details are fearful, and yet they fall far short of the reality, for the reason that only *the ruthless deeds *of Indians living in Mexico were specially inquired into or included in this report, while the *fiendish atrocities committed upon Texas people by the Comanches, the Kioways, the Apaches, and other savages* of the Staked Plains and the mountains beyond, were not examined into nor reported upon. "
Full text of Special report of the adjutant-general of the state of Texas. September 1884 


The request by Throckmorton was for 1000 soldiers *to protect the Five Tribes.

*
Protect them from those 'peaceful' Indians???

"Crime"...taking what they wanted from those weaker than themselves was the way of primitive cultures from time immemorial.

*So....no, it wasn't the whites who taught said individuals to be criminals.*_


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## Ravi (Nov 4, 2014)

PoliticalChic said:


> Ravi said:
> 
> 
> > Okay, my bad, the NAs were around then. But they didn't eat saber toothed tigers. Current wisdom shows that the tigers had enough to eat when they went extinct and that would mean the "theory" that the Native Americans wiped out all the big game is incorrect.
> ...


Oh, shoot, I forgot you were anti-science.


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## PoliticalChic (Nov 4, 2014)

Ravi said:


> PoliticalChic said:
> 
> 
> > Ravi said:
> ...





I've tried to keep track as to how often you are wrong, but once it got past Avagodro's Number....I gave up.


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## Mad_Cabbie (Nov 4, 2014)

Roadrunner said:


> PoliticalChic said:
> 
> 
> > Mad_Cabbie said:
> ...



Then how do you know they were eaten?


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## Mad_Cabbie (Nov 4, 2014)

Adaptations that made saber-toothed cats a successful hunter also made the cats vulnerable to extinction. They most likely went belly up due to a lack of suitable prey.

It took around 8 million years for a new type of saber-tooth to fill the niche of an extinct predecessor; this happened at least four times with different families of animals developing these adaptation(s). 

Furthermore, Sabers existed in Asia, Europe and elsewhere -- did native Americans hunt them into extinction overseas, as well?


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## Ravi (Nov 4, 2014)

Mad_Cabbie said:


> Adaptations that made saber-toothed cats a successful hunter also made the cats vulnerable to extinction. They most likely went belly up due to a lack of suitable prey.
> 
> It took around 8 million years for a new type of saber-tooth to fill the niche of an extinct predecessor; this happened at least four times with different families of animals developing these adaptation(s).
> 
> Furthermore, Sabers existed in Asia, Europe and elsewhere -- did native Americans hunt them into extinction overseas, as well?


No, apparently it was not for lack of suitable prey. See article below....and they could have eaten the NAs if they had run out of other prey.

Starvation Didn t Wipe Out Sabertooth Cats


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## PoliticalChic (Nov 4, 2014)

_I couldn't wait to get to a discussion of this aspect of the "Noble Savage" hagiography....


12. _And, like any good little *Non compos mentis Liberal, our pal Cabbie doesn't want his imaginary Noble Savages smeared' with the truth!*
_
He whines:

"That was my way of saying that the natives were who they were -- not without flaws, but *there is certainly no need to vilify them as "savages."*


Yeah...there is!
The very best of reasons. They were just that.

"Savage" is the most appropriate term for the Indians as a whole. Latinsilvaticus‘of the woods,’ from silva‘a wood.’
So....in the etymological sense....they were.

Very different from the meaning of 'civilized.'


But in the colloquial sense.....they were also savages!
See if the following informs the term 'savage' as it has been applied.



"The truth Johnny Depp wants to hide about_ the real-life _Tontos: How *Comanche Indians butchered babies, roasted enemies alive and would ride 1,000 miles to wipe out one family*_

_ The 16-year-old girl’s once-beautiful face was grotesque.


She had been* disfigured beyond all recognition* in the 18 months she had been held captive by the Comanche Indians. Her head, arms and face were full of bruises and sores,’ wrote one witness, Mary Maverick. ‘And* her nose was actually burnt off *to the bone. Both nostrils were wide open and denuded of flesh.’


Once handed over, Matilda Lockhart broke down as she described the horrors she had endured —* the rape, the relentless sexual humiliation and the way Comanche women had tortured her with fire.* It wasn’t just her nose, her thin body was hideously scarred all over with burns.


He refers to the ‘demonic immorality’ of Comanche attacks on white settlers, the way in which *torture, killings and gang-rapes were routine. *‘The logic of Comanche raids was straightforward,’ he explains. ‘All the men were killed, and any men who were captured alive were tortured; the captive women were gang raped. *Babies were invariably killed.’*


.... native Americans are presented in the film as saintly victims of a Old West where it is the *white settlers — the men who built America *— who represent nothing but exploitation, brutality, environmental destruction and genocide.


 ‘One by one, *the children and young women were pegged out naked beside the camp fire,’ according to a contemporary account. ‘They were skinned, sliced, and horribly mutilated, and finally burned alive *by vengeful women determined to wring the last shriek and convulsion from their agonised bodies. Matilda Lockhart’s* six-year-old sister was among these unfortunates who died screaming* under the high plains moon.’_

_By casting the cruelest, most aggressive tribe of Indians as mere saps and victims of oppression, Johnny Depp’s Lone Ranger perpetuates the patronising and ignorant cartoon of the ‘noble savage’."
How Comanche Indians butchered babies and roasted enemies alive Daily Mail Online



_


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## Ravi (Nov 4, 2014)

Why do you keep throwing around the noble savage strawman, PC?


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## Mad_Cabbie (Nov 4, 2014)

Ravi said:


> Mad_Cabbie said:
> 
> 
> > Adaptations that made saber-toothed cats a successful hunter also made the cats vulnerable to extinction. They most likely went belly up due to a lack of suitable prey.
> ...



Kind of a wild guess by me, thanks for pointing that out.

The article still did not offer a reason, certainly not because of over harvesting.

I do not imagine that the natives would have targeted such a dangerous animal with so much more prey available.


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## Ravi (Nov 4, 2014)

Mad_Cabbie said:


> Ravi said:
> 
> 
> > Mad_Cabbie said:
> ...


There is some evidence that Noah didn't let them on the ark.


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## HereWeGoAgain (Nov 4, 2014)

Mad_Cabbie said:


> Ravi said:
> 
> 
> > Mad_Cabbie said:
> ...



 They'd be a target for the simple fact the indians didnt like being eaten by them.


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## Mad_Cabbie (Nov 4, 2014)

HereWeGoAgain said:


> Mad_Cabbie said:
> 
> 
> > Ravi said:
> ...



Not necessarily, If I'm hunting to feed my family, I'm not going to waste time hunting something that "might" kill me.


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## Ravi (Nov 4, 2014)

HereWeGoAgain said:


> Mad_Cabbie said:
> 
> 
> > Ravi said:
> ...


The tigers ate herbivores. NAs weren't herbivores.


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## Mad_Cabbie (Nov 4, 2014)

Ravi said:


> The tigers ate herbivores. NAs weren't herbivores.



Very good point, I don't really know if their diet was so limited, I'll check on that.


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## PoliticalChic (Nov 4, 2014)

Ravi said:


> Why do you keep throwing around the noble savage strawman, PC?




I suggest, that based on what appears to by a severe form of short term memory loss, you should be back and re-read the OP.

You'll find that I prepared this thread based on what Cabbie wrote about the savages, the American Indians.
One by one, I have destroyed the Cabster's statements about the Indians.

His error is one that sits at the heart of Liberal hate-America doctrine, as raising the savage up is the proxy for slander of the colonists.

As my thesis is clearly undeniable, as shown in your attempts...all of which failed.....it seems that your retreat is now based on 'You're making this up....everyone knows all this about the Indians."

False.

As are your posts.


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## Roadrunner (Nov 4, 2014)

Ravi said:


> Mad_Cabbie said:
> 
> 
> > Adaptations that made saber-toothed cats a successful hunter also made the cats vulnerable to extinction. They most likely went belly up due to a lack of suitable prey.
> ...


Most likely the same land bridge that let horses out of North America, and the Asiatic hordes in, let diseases go both ways too.

I figure disease and a new predator, along with climate change, all played a part.


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## HereWeGoAgain (Nov 4, 2014)

Mad_Cabbie said:


> HereWeGoAgain said:
> 
> 
> > Mad_Cabbie said:
> ...



   So while you and the guys are out hunting bambi you'll just leave the old lady at camp to become a large version of Friskies?
    Or maybe when you send your kid down to the ole water hole so you can have the old lady boil up some tubers...
    And the most obvious... they viewed them as competition for available food.


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## Ravi (Nov 4, 2014)

PoliticalChic said:


> Ravi said:
> 
> 
> > Why do you keep throwing around the noble savage strawman, PC?
> ...


You haven't destroyed anything. You've mischaracterized what he said and keep bringing up the strawman of noble savage.

It'd be really cool if you could be intellectually honest once in a while.


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## Mad_Cabbie (Nov 4, 2014)

PoliticalChic said:


> Ravi said:
> 
> 
> > Why do you keep throwing around the noble savage strawman, PC?
> ...



You never "destroyed" any of my arguments; unless, of course, your C&Ps somehow count as a vicarious form of _plageristic evisceration._ 

Someone else's opinions appearing in quotes does not, in itself, constitute "Fact."


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## Mad_Cabbie (Nov 4, 2014)

Ravi said:


> You haven't destroyed anything. You've mischaracterized what he said and keep bringing up the strawman of noble savage.
> 
> It'd be really cool if you could be intellectually honest once in a while.





> I do not necessarily hold to the notion that native Americans were guiltless saints who could do no wrong, but genocide? Absolutely; to the point where there no longer are full-blooded natives left.
> 
> Did the US re-nig on just about any treaty that they ever agreed to? Of course they did.
> 
> Does that mean we should give it back? Hell no. We did what we did, but don't expect me to buy into the "poor hapless settlers" or "those godless heathen Injun's."



Somehow, my opening post is now some kind of liberal endorsement for Native Americans being innocent of all atrocities they might have committed! 

Too funny!


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## Roadrunner (Nov 4, 2014)

Mad_Cabbie said:


> Ravi said:
> 
> 
> > You haven't destroyed anything. You've mischaracterized what he said and keep bringing up the strawman of noble savage.
> ...


Lo, the Poor Indian!!!

LMAO at that!


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## Mad_Cabbie (Nov 4, 2014)

Roadrunner said:


> Mad_Cabbie said:
> 
> 
> > Ravi said:
> ...




... And?


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## PoliticalChic (Nov 4, 2014)

Ravi said:


> PoliticalChic said:
> 
> 
> > Ravi said:
> ...







It'd be even cooler if you could be intellectual once in a while.

Bet you've heard that a lot, huh?


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## PoliticalChic (Nov 4, 2014)

Mad_Cabbie said:


> PoliticalChic said:
> 
> 
> > Ravi said:
> ...






Did you find any of the quotes I've provided that did not include links or sources?
No?
Well...then you're a liar, aren't you.

Folks tend to lie to get the egg off their faces when their statements are shredded....as I've done to your most closely held beliefs.


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## PoliticalChic (Nov 4, 2014)

Mad_Cabbie said:


> Ravi said:
> 
> 
> > You haven't destroyed anything. You've mischaracterized what he said and keep bringing up the strawman of noble savage.
> ...




So....you're running from your original statements?

 Confederate General Wise, running from Union General Cox, refused to call it 'retreat,' called it, 'a retrograde movement.' 

 Nice retrograde movement you've made.


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## Mad_Cabbie (Nov 4, 2014)

PoliticalChic said:


> So....you're running from your original statements?
> 
> Confederate General Wise, running from Union General Cox, refused to call it 'retreat,' called it, 'a retrograde movement.'
> 
> Nice retrograde movement you've made.



read my opening post, not exactly a hard stand against what you were presenting in the OP. 

I neither agreed nor disagreed, my position was somewhere in the middle.


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## Mad_Cabbie (Nov 4, 2014)

I'm a liar, now? 

OK.


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## Mad_Cabbie (Nov 4, 2014)

PC, you're thread is kind of boring. It's boring because YOU, yourself are boring. 

You wouldn't be so boring if you weren't so predictable. 

You're predictably boring. 


ABRACADABRA.


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## PoliticalChic (Nov 4, 2014)

Mad_Cabbie said:


> I'm a liar, now?
> 
> OK.




Did you say my work was plagiarized?

That makes you a liar.


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## PoliticalChic (Nov 4, 2014)

Mad_Cabbie said:


> PC, you're thread is kind of boring. It's boring because YOU, yourself are boring.
> 
> You wouldn't be so boring if you weren't so predictable.
> 
> ...




White flag, huh?

And not in the most honorable form, either.


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## PoliticalChic (Nov 4, 2014)

13. The description I provided of the savage behavior of the Indians must have been pretty powerful.....
...the silence was deafening.


Well....let's add some more fuel to that fire:

_"...*there is certainly no need to vilify them as "savages."*_

*Sure about that????*
_
The answer is both clear and indisputable: nothing could be more savage than the cultures we are discussing.


a. Craig Childs wrote in the NYTimes “A Past That Makes Us Squirm,” (http://www.nytimes.com/2007/01/02/opinion/02childs.html?_r=0)                               “children killed the same way, human sacrifices to an ancient water deity, their bodies buried under pre-Columbian ball courts or at the foot of pillars in important rooms,”... “archaeological record of the Americas read like a war-crimes indictment, with charred skeletons stacked like cordwood and innumerable human remains missing heads, legs and arms. In the American Southwest, which is my area of research, human tissue has been found cooked to the insides of kitchen jars and stained into a ceramic serving ladle. A grinding stone was found full of crushed human finger bones. A sample of human feces came up containing the remains of a cannibal’s meal.”   Childs also refers to the accuracy of “ Mel Gibson’s movie ‘Apocalypto.’  “ How do we rectify the age-old perception of noble and peaceful native America with the reality that at times violence was coordinated on a scale never before witnessed by humanity? The answer is simple. We don’t.”




b. The Field Museum of Natural History in Chicago had a new permanent exhibit of pre-Columbian North America,  "The Ancient Americas,’ which embodies the current _*themes of political correctness.*_ P.J. O’Rourke, in the Weekly Standard, utterly destroys the simpletons who attempt to venerate the savages....                                                                                                                                                                          This brings us to the Maya and their abominable customs, nicely glossed.

.”. sacrifice has played a role in the religious beliefs of many people throughout history and in all parts of the world. …. 

Some *societies in the ancient Americas, like the Maya, practiced bloodletting or human sacrifice* as part of their ceremonies or spiritual beliefs. Why? Anthropologists don't fully know.

*The loathsome Aztec *devoted most of their energy to human sacrifices, horrifying in extent and gruesome in technique. The Ancient Americas treats this in a moving-right-along manner.

From mild bloodletting to violent death, sacrifice offered thanks to the gods while maintaining the natural order of the world. The Spanish often emphasized accounts of bloodthirsty sacrifice to justify conquering the Aztec people.

Here, we reflect on the magnitude of loss inflicted on America's Indigenous peoples by European invasion. The exhibit points out that *disease was the chief cause of suffering after European contact. *Therefore, the horrors that beset The Ancient Americas following 1492 would have happened if the Niña, the Pinta, and the Santa María had been manned by Jimmy Carter, the Dalai Lama, and Bono."   When Worlds Collide The Weekly Standard


c. .... the total number of lucky people who had *their hearts cut out and sacrificed by the Aztecs *is unknown.  But historians are pretty sure that the number is somewhere *between 300,000 and 1,500,000. "  * The Death Toll Comparison Breakdown Wait But Why




I hope this ends the absurdity of placing the American Indians on a pedestal, of attempting to ennoble them with attributes and titles which they don't deserve.

Of course it won't...as long as the myth serves the Liberal purpose.
_


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## JoeB131 (Nov 4, 2014)

PoliticalChic said:


> So....the Africans committed genocide on the poor, innocent, unsuspecting Europeans by sending Bubonic Plague....??
> 
> 
> You're a history-challenged moron.



Bubonic plague originated in Asia.


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## Roadrunner (Nov 4, 2014)

JoeB131 said:


> PoliticalChic said:
> 
> 
> > So....the Africans committed genocide on the poor, innocent, unsuspecting Europeans by sending Bubonic Plague....??
> ...


Brought to Venice by Christian victims of Muslim biological warfare!


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## JoeB131 (Nov 4, 2014)

Roadrunner said:


> JoeB131 said:
> 
> 
> > PoliticalChic said:
> ...



Yup, we knew we could count on you to up the crazy another notch.


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## Mad_Cabbie (Nov 4, 2014)

PoliticalChic said:


> Mad_Cabbie said:
> 
> 
> > PC, you're thread is kind of boring. It's boring because YOU, yourself are boring.
> ...



Correct, not up to explaining the same thing thirty times.


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## PoliticalChic (Nov 5, 2014)

JoeB131 said:


> PoliticalChic said:
> 
> 
> > So....the Africans committed genocide on the poor, innocent, unsuspecting Europeans by sending Bubonic Plague....??
> ...





Gee....another incorrect post by ErroneousJoe.....

Shocker.


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## PoliticalChic (Nov 5, 2014)

JoeB131 said:


> Roadrunner said:
> 
> 
> > JoeB131 said:
> ...




He's right...as usual, you're wrong.
Except...they weren't Muslim, as Islam was yet to be created.




Egypt was the granary, and when the disease appeared in Pelusium, about 541, it was at the terminus of the ancient world’s greatest riverine complex: the Nile delta, with access to all of the Mediterranean civilization.

Imagine a grain ship departing Alexandria for Constantinople, a journey of about 10 days to 2 weeks. It is the spring of 542, and Y. pestis has traveled from the east side of the delta to the west. Now it heads north, with the grain…and the rats. And the fleas. A day out, one sailor has a headache, fever, pain in the legs and back. Next day, two more. The first sailor has a painful swelling in the groin; next he is confused, with slurred speech. Eyes grow bloodshot, and blood starts to pool under the skin, causing black fingers and toes. Hallucinations follow. Tongues swell and speech cannot be understood. By the fourth day, almost all are dead. The last is coughing up blood as he stumbles into a village. As written by Procopius, “the disease always took its start from the coast…” Then the plague spread everywhere the Persian trade routes carried rats.
From "Justinian's Flea," by Rosen


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## Mad_Cabbie (Nov 5, 2014)

PoliticalChic said:


> JoeB131 said:
> 
> 
> > PoliticalChic said:
> ...



How so? DNA has clearly indicated that Bubonic plague or _Yersinia pestis_, is commonly present in populations of fleas carried by ground rodents, including marmots, in various areas including Central Asia, Kurdistan, Western Asia, Northern India and Uganda. If there is evidence of the plague pre-1300's.
EDIT: There was evidence of flee infestations of _Yersinia pestis_ in Ancient Egypt, but to say that this caused Bubonic plague in Europe is flat-out wrong. 

To mock Joe for telling you an empirical fact that you are not willing to accept, is rather disingenuous.


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## PoliticalChic (Nov 5, 2014)

Mad_Cabbie said:


> Ravi said:
> 
> 
> > Mad_Cabbie said:
> ...






Here I am laughing at you two, *TweedleDumb and TweedleDumber, trying so hard to avoid the truth:

The savages destroyed so many of the animals that many disappeared from the planet.

And that is the theme of this thread.....primitives, savages, stone-age cultures destroy, kill, and ravage, and that refers to the environment as well as any fauna they come across.

*
Your attitude toward said cultures is exactly why I posted this thread. I hope I have disabused you of early attitude and beliefs.....
...although you have yet to withdraw you complaint about them being called "savages."




In any case....here is more in the way of *documentation of the way the savages acted:*

14. The guesswork and presumption on the part of you, and the brilliant Ravi are laughable....but only in the way that Lord Byron meant laugh...

"And if I laugh at any mortal thing,  ’Tis that I may not weep;"
[TBODY]
[/TBODY]



The historical record provides *proof that you two would rather ignore: the extinctions were due to the savage behavior of the primitives.....everywhere!*


No matter the animal....*primitives found ways to kill them.*


a. " When the Aborigines arrived in Australia the fauna ‘included a large variety of monotremes and marsupials, including ‘giant’ forms of macropodids (kangaroos and related species). *Within 15,000 years all were extinct." *
Alvard, M.S., ‘Conservation by Native Peoples: Prey Choice in a Depleted Habitat’, Human Nature, Vol. 5, No. 2, 1994, pp.127-154, citing Horton, J., 'Red Kangaroos: Last of the Australian Megafauna' in Martin, P., and Klein, R., (eds.) Quartenary Extinctions, Tuscon: University and Murray, P., 'Extinctions Down Under: A Bestiary of Extinct Australian Late Pleistocene Monotremes and Marsupials, in Martin, P. and Klein, R.


b. "The ‘prime peoples’ of Madagascar hunted several* species of giant lemurs to extinction." *
Dewar, R., 'Extinctions in Madagascar: The Loss of the Subfossil Fauna’


c. "The arrival of the Maoris in New Zealand was quickly followed by *the extinction of 34 species of birds." *
Alvard, M.S., Op.Cit


c. As Matt Ridley puts it, ‘the first Maoris sat down and *ate their way through all twelve species of the giant moa birds’*, leaving about a third of the meat to rot, and entire ovens stuffed with roast haunches unopened, so plentiful was the initial supply.  
Ridley, M., "The Origins of Virtue," p.219




15. Peter Martin developed what has become known as *the ‘Overkill Hypothesis’* to explain *the disappearance of large number of species - particularly mammal species - over the relatively short time-span of a few thousand years following the arrival of humans on the different continents.* He argued that, where animals had plenty of time to get used to humans, as in Europe and Africa where homo sapiens first appeared, they learned to be cautious.

 It was the arrival of man in Australia and *America which was particularly devastating as the animals did not know what to expect and provided easy targets.* North America lost 73 per cent of its large mammalian species, South America 79 per cent, Australia 86 per cent, but Africa only 14 per cent.  
Peter Ward, "The End of Evolution: Dinosaurs, Mass Extinction and Biodiversity," p. 202.


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## Mad_Cabbie (Nov 5, 2014)

PC, you laugh at people you debate with, as a weapon to discredit us and our arguments out of hand.

I never once stated that Native Americans did not _kill off anything_. Please provide a link to indicate otherwise, you insufferable twit.


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## Ravi (Nov 5, 2014)

PC is happy the "savages" were killed and contained by the Europeans.


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## PoliticalChic (Nov 5, 2014)

Mad_Cabbie said:


> PC, you laugh at people you debate with, as a weapon to discredit us and our arguments out of hand.
> 
> I never once stated that Native Americans did not _kill off anything_. Please provide a link to indicate otherwise, you insufferable twit.





I laugh at ignorance.

And, have no trouble both pointing and laughing....*.and documenting what I post.*

"I never once stated that Native Americans did not _kill off anything_."
The post to which you are referring was created in response to you two begging to find a way to explain the extinctions sans blaming the savages.

You opened the door....I walked through it.


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## Mad_Cabbie (Nov 5, 2014)

PoliticalChic said:


> Mad_Cabbie said:
> 
> 
> > Ravi said:
> ...



^^^ Typical PC, blames "savages" (read, pre historic people from every continent) for mass extinctions.

Staggers the imagination - we are talking about native Americans, and PC moves the goal posts to include primitive humans the world over.


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## PoliticalChic (Nov 5, 2014)

Ravi said:


> PC is happy the "savages" were killed and contained by the Europeans.




You are dumber than a soup sandwich.


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## Roadrunner (Nov 5, 2014)

Mad_Cabbie said:


> PoliticalChic said:
> 
> 
> > Mad_Cabbie said:
> ...


AGW caused by cave men lighting farts killed off the Ice Age mammals and raised the ocean levels hundreds of feet.

Thank God for that, I fuckin' HATE being cold.

And getting run over by mega-fauna!


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## Mad_Cabbie (Nov 5, 2014)

PoliticalChic said:


> Ravi said:
> 
> 
> > PC is happy the "savages" were killed and contained by the Europeans.
> ...



Not you you though, we have treasures like this to verify that you graduated at the top of your class.

Good job.


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## Mad_Cabbie (Nov 5, 2014)

Roadrunner said:


> Mad_Cabbie said:
> 
> 
> > PoliticalChic said:
> ...



^^^^ No one actually expects you to ever contribute to thread -- please, carry on.


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## Mad_Cabbie (Nov 5, 2014)

PoliticalChic said:


> Mad_Cabbie said:
> 
> 
> > PC, you laugh at people you debate with, as a weapon to discredit us and our arguments out of hand.
> ...



Please cut and paste (your specialty) the post where I indicated that my position was that native Americans did not cause extinctions. 

I'll wait.


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## PoliticalChic (Nov 5, 2014)

Mad_Cabbie said:


> PoliticalChic said:
> 
> 
> > Mad_Cabbie said:
> ...






1. "...we are talking about native Americans, and PC moves the goal posts to include primitive humans the world over."

a. Those 'native American' savages is a subset of the primitives world wide.
b. I documented said behavior in the entire group.



2. I showed the savagery of the 'native Americans' earlier, as follows:

These 'Noble*Savages' were responsible for the extinction of a number of animals.*

‘One successful kill of a number of adult animals,’ wrote Wright, describing the effects on the ecosystem of a jump near Jackson Hole, ‘would have*reduced the breeding potential of the local [bison] herd to a level where it was no longer a significant part of the valley ecosystem.'*
Chase, Op.Cit., p. 99-100

"*Until ten thousand years ago an incredible bestiary of mammals roamed North America.*
These were the so-called mega-fauna, an exotic menagerie that included the woollymammoth, saber-toothed tiger, giant sloth, giant beaver, camel, horse, two-toed horse, and dire wolf. These were the dominant fauna on this continent for tens of millions of years. Then suddenly and mysteriously they disappeared."
Ibid.
Now...who could have destroyed all those animals??
There is no evidence of changing climate or habitat....



3. Your partner in stupidity claimed,earlier...and corrected it, that the Indians could not have caused extinctions because they were not present....and I corrected that misapprehension....here:
The extinction of the megafauna coincides with the time the first tribes inhabited the continente.

a. "Saber-toothed cats, American lions, woolly mammoths andother giant creaturesonce roamed across the American landscape. However, at the end of the late Pleistocene about 12,000 years ago, these "megafauna" went extinct, a die-off called the Quaternary extinction."Starvation Didn t Wipe Out Sabertooth Cats


b. "Prevailing ideas point to all Native Americans descending from ancient Siberians who moved across theBeringia land bridgebetween Asia and North America between 26,000 and 18,000 years ago. As time wore on, the thinking goes, these people spread southward and gave rise to the Native American populations encountered by European settlers centuries ago.
:History Travel Arts Science People Places Smithsonian



So....your post is simply another attempt to find anything wrong with mine....and you've failed again.


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## Mad_Cabbie (Nov 5, 2014)

PoliticalChic said:


> Mad_Cabbie said:
> 
> 
> > PC, you laugh at people you debate with, as a weapon to discredit us and our arguments out of hand.
> ...



Translation:

Ignorance = anyone who is not lock-step with your right-wing lunacy.


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## Roadrunner (Nov 5, 2014)

Mad_Cabbie said:


> Roadrunner said:
> 
> 
> > Mad_Cabbie said:
> ...


Kiss my ass.

I have a right to be facetious.

You want serious discussion, ok.

The arrival of man, and his animals, and their diseases, coupled with climate change and an inability to adapt, killed the Ice Age Megafauna.

It cannot be blamed on any one factor, in my opinion and from what I have read.

We survived global warming that raised the seas hundreds of feet; we will survive another few feet.


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## Ravi (Nov 5, 2014)

PC, why do you hate Native Americans so much?


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## Mad_Cabbie (Nov 5, 2014)

PoliticalChic said:


> Mad_Cabbie said:
> 
> 
> > PoliticalChic said:
> ...



In your inane, scatter-shot way of posting, Australia somehow equates to native Americans.


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## PoliticalChic (Nov 5, 2014)

Mad_Cabbie said:


> PoliticalChic said:
> 
> 
> > Mad_Cabbie said:
> ...





The insane Ravi pretended that she had some knowledge of the diets of the organisms that became extinct, and discussed them eating Indians....
...and you went with it...

Post #102...
"The tigers ate herbivores. NAs weren't herbivores.
Very good point, I don't really know if their diet was so limited, I'll check on that."

That was your opportunity to choose the correct side....and you punted.


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## Ravi (Nov 5, 2014)

Roadrunner said:


> Mad_Cabbie said:
> 
> 
> > Roadrunner said:
> ...


I'm curious, what animals did man arrive with that killed the megafauna?


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## Mad_Cabbie (Nov 5, 2014)

Roadrunner said:


> Mad_Cabbie said:
> 
> 
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^^^^ Very good, more posts like that and you will cease to be known as the village idiot! 

Good post.


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## PoliticalChic (Nov 5, 2014)

Mad_Cabbie said:


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Ooops!

Sorry....I didn't mean to leave you out: Yours is an intellect rivaled only by garden tools.


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## Roadrunner (Nov 5, 2014)

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I have heard it postulated in National Geographic years ago that domestic dogs brought a variety of diseases, rabies being one.


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## Ravi (Nov 5, 2014)

PoliticalChic said:


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Oh dear Lord! Do you ever read up on a subject before you opine on it? The tigers did eat herbivores. NAs were not herbivores. The most casual study of science will tell you this is so.


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## Mad_Cabbie (Nov 5, 2014)

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Both animals and man crossed the Barring Straight.


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## Roadrunner (Nov 5, 2014)

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Wait a minute.

Are you suggesting a hungry tiger would not eat a man that was not vegan?


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## Ravi (Nov 5, 2014)

Roadrunner said:


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Okay, I didn't think of that one. But surely the dogs were already here in the form of wolves and that is what the NAs domesticated? Is there evidence that dogs were brought with the NAs from wherever they came from?


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## PoliticalChic (Nov 5, 2014)

Mad_Cabbie said:


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It appears that the word 'lunacy' is not one you can define....but it serves as another attempt to criticize my posts.

Of course, the right way would be to show any errors in said posts.

Not possible.


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## Roadrunner (Nov 5, 2014)

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It wasn't barring anyone.

It had frozen up, and was no  longer a strait.

It was a land bridge name Beringia.

Today, the Bering Strait covers it.


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## Mad_Cabbie (Nov 5, 2014)

PoliticalChic said:


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Thank you, certain admonishments are actually complements with regards to who authored them ~


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## Ravi (Nov 5, 2014)

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Nope. I'm saying they wouldn't eat them as a matter of course. And as the article I linked before shows that the tigers had plenty of prey, there would be no need for the tigers to eat humans.


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## Roadrunner (Nov 5, 2014)

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I think there is.

We'd have to do some googling, but yes, I think they brought dogs and disease.


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## Mad_Cabbie (Nov 5, 2014)

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Sorry, typing on my phone. 

All throughout history, that area was used to facilitate migration of invasive species. 

You are correct in everything you have presented.


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## Roadrunner (Nov 5, 2014)

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No mention of dogs in first thing that came up.

I'm still looking.

Native Americans and the Bering Straits


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## PoliticalChic (Nov 5, 2014)

Ravi said:


> PC, why do you hate Native Americans so much?




Another one of your attempts to deflect from your glowing ignorance...but you are so stupid that you think anyone.....other than Victoria...or Valerie....whatever her name is, would lend credence to what you say.


You remain our renewable energy source for hot air balloons.


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## Mad_Cabbie (Nov 5, 2014)

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Please take a lesson from Roadrunner, he is actually making this thread readable.


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## Roadrunner (Nov 5, 2014)

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Humans are weak.

Great reason to hunt them.


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## Roadrunner (Nov 5, 2014)

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Fuck yourself, asshole.


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## Roadrunner (Nov 5, 2014)

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More on the dogs:

Origin of the domestic dog - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia
Long and I haven't read it all.

But, seems dogs were domesticated long before the Early Arrivers got here, so, probably safe to assume they had dogs.

I have a mental picture of an illustration in National Geographic, August or September of 1979 I think, that showed  Early Arrivals trekking with dogs.

I remember it , because I used it in the first lesson I ever taught as an American History teacher.


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## Roadrunner (Nov 5, 2014)

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You insulted me because you are too stupid to understand facetiousness.

Don't patronize me now.


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## Roadrunner (Nov 5, 2014)

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Here is an article that says domestic dogs arrived with the Early Arrivers.

A History of Dogs in the Early Americas


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## Ravi (Nov 5, 2014)

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I don't think so. Animals wouldn't expend energy in that manner.

I just had an epiphany though. It's possible that,  just like some wacky Asian cultures believe in the power of ground up bones, tusks, etc., the NAs hunted the tigers for similar strange reasons. Therefore we can blame any extinction on PC's savage relatives .

That wouldn't account for the fact that all the megafauna went extinct at the same time though.


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## Mad_Cabbie (Nov 5, 2014)

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Not going there, I apologies, let's keep this thread on track.


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## Roadrunner (Nov 5, 2014)

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All available evidence is that climate change was the main cause.

Take the northern pachyderms for example, they died out worldwide, with a remnant dwarf population existing somewhere on some Arctic Sea island off Siberia until fairly modern times.

I think I read they lasted until 100AD or so.


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## Ravi (Nov 5, 2014)

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Okay, thanks. I still doubt your theory though since NAs were here 28,000 years ago and the megafauna died out 12,000 years ago. Why would it have taken that long if it was due to disease spread by dogs?


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## Ravi (Nov 5, 2014)

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I tend to agree with this. Maybe PC can make a case that NAs were responsible for climate change.


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## Roadrunner (Nov 5, 2014)

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I said it has been postulated that disease CONTRIBUTED to the extinction.

It is not my theory, and nowhere did I say disease brought by man and his animals was the sole reason.

Considering the devastating effect of the Columbian Exchange on "Native Americans", and on animals such as wild sheep, when domestic sheep arrived, it think it is plausible that disease CONTRIBUTED.


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## Mad_Cabbie (Nov 5, 2014)

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In one of the links, I red something about the earth warming had something to do with the larger animals disappearing.

It would make sense for Mammoths and other cold-weather creatures to become more rare under those conditions.

It would then have made them more vulnerable to over-hunting.


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## Roadrunner (Nov 5, 2014)

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I think there were many distinct Early Arrivers, from Europe, Africa and Asia.

DNA will sort it out in time.


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## Ravi (Nov 5, 2014)

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Didn't mean to generalize. I just doubt that it would have taken a disease 12,000+ years to wipe out a "native" population.


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## Ravi (Nov 5, 2014)

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Possibly and the dna results will be very interesting. Not sure how people could get here in any numbers after the land bridge disappeared.


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## Ravi (Nov 5, 2014)

Damn. I actually learned a few things and had an enjoyable discussion on a PC thread!


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## Roadrunner (Nov 5, 2014)

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Hmm, ever heard of boats and rafts.

There was no land bridge to the Easter Islands.


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## Roadrunner (Nov 5, 2014)

Ravi said:


> Damn. I actually learned a few things and had an enjoyable discussion on a PC thread!


You can learn a lot if you pay attention.


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## Ravi (Nov 5, 2014)

Roadrunner said:


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Too bad we can't say the same of PC.


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## Ravi (Nov 5, 2014)

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Right, and if people did come from there it wasn't in great numbers and I can't really see them bringing many dogs.


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## Roadrunner (Nov 5, 2014)

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I've never seen much on how many people might have crossed Beringia.

Time for you to do the research though!

; - )


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## Ravi (Nov 5, 2014)

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I can't find it but I thought this article was interesting. Not sure if by native Americans they are talking about both continents or just North America. The article also discusses what might have happened to the megafauna.

First Americans Lived on Bering Land Bridge for Thousands of Years - Scientific American


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## Mad_Cabbie (Nov 5, 2014)

Ravi, you uncovered something pretty interesting here.



> The last ice age ended and the land bridge began to disappear beneath the sea, some 13,000 years ago. Global sea levels rose as the vast continental ice sheets melted, liberating billions of gallons of fresh water. As the land bridge flooded, the entire Beringian region grew more warm and moist, and the shrub tundra vegetation spread rapidly, out-competing the steppe-tundra plants that had dominated the interior lowlands of Beringia.
> 
> *While this spelled the end of the woolly mammoths and other large grazing animals,* it probably also provided the impetus for human migration. As retreating glaciers opened new routes into the continent, humans travelled first into the Alaskan interior and the Yukon, and ultimately south out of the Arctic region and toward the temperate regions of the Americas. The first definitive archaeological evidence we have for the presence of people beyond Beringia and interior Alaska comes from this time, about 13,000 years ago.


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## Abishai100 (Oct 26, 2015)

*Folk Flaws*


Indians offer the world a rich storytelling tradition from which we Americans derive many interesting names/mascots for place names (i.e., Cherokee High School) and sports team mascots (i.e., Florida State Seminoles).

What if we simply explore the creativity behind avatars and mythologies surrounding culture storytelling (i.e. _The Illiad, The Mahabharata, _etc.)?

Folk dialogue may be the best way to approach revisionist history.  Americans appreciate avatar storytelling.  Native-Americans celebrate various avatar spirits such as the double-woman and use avatar-themed names such as Running Eagle.  Americans celebrated Hindu mythology avatars such as Shiva (Hindu god of destruction) during the counter-culture movement and still celebrate populism-rich festival-related avatars such as Michael Myers (the fictional masked ghoul from the popular _Halloween_ American horror film franchise).

If we want to claim that Running Eagle or Seminoles are silly, we should evaluate why Shiva and Michael Myers are artistically inspiring for many Americans.







Shiva (Hinduism)

Michael Myers (Halloween)

Revisionist History (Wikipedia)


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