# Peak Wind



## mdn2000

According to industry experts, in the United States, we have reached peak wind, every easy accessible site has been developed. 

All the best sites for wind development are already exploited. 

Sorry to let the air out of the bag.

There are stories on the web I can link to if people take interest in this thread.

It is a fact, all the good sites are taken, peak wind has arrived, so much for being renewable. 

No amount of technology can help develop wind.


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## Mr. H.

*Say WHAT?!*


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## Revere

Hah!  Great thread, as usual!


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## mdn2000

But I though wind energy lasts forever, its renewable, its magic, Wind Mills grow on trees, a renewable resource.

The Future of US Wind Power | Green Living Ideas



> The wind sector is suffering from its own success. In the last decade the industry has expanded from a handful of wind farm developers to a plethora. These companies have left hardly a stone unturned &#8211; or rather a breeze unmeasured &#8211; in their quest for prime, onshore wind power sites.
> As a result, it is no longer easy to find large pieces of land in advanced markets with all the right ingredients for a wind project: strong and steady winds, a welcoming community and easy access to transmission. Developers find themselves jostling for position, with four of five companies sometimes vying for the same sweet spot


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## mdn2000

Something else to be addressed, cap and trade has not been passed so why does this article state energy credits are needed?

Wind energy is only here because the government has forced wind energy on us by law. It is the government of Tyranny that forces the people to give our money to the elites in power.



Wind Farms: Are All the Best Spots Taken? | Renewable Energy World Magazine Article



> These heavily populated states need wind energy, or at least the renewable energy credits the projects generate.


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## loosecannon

mdn2000 said:


> According to industry experts, in the United States, we have reached peak wind, every easy accessible site has been developed.
> 
> All the best sites for wind development are already exploited.
> 
> Sorry to let the air out of the bag.
> 
> There are stories on the web I can link to if people take interest in this thread.
> 
> It is a fact, all the good sites are taken, peak wind has arrived, so much for being renewable.
> 
> No amount of technology can help develop wind.



All the best sites for *oil and coal *development are already exploited. 

Sorry to let the air out of the (wind)bag.


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## Old Rocks

Wind Powering America: 80-Meter Wind Maps and Wind Resource Potential


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## mdn2000

loosecannon said:


> mdn2000 said:
> 
> 
> 
> According to industry experts, in the United States, we have reached peak wind, every easy accessible site has been developed.
> 
> All the best sites for wind development are already exploited.
> 
> Sorry to let the air out of the bag.
> 
> There are stories on the web I can link to if people take interest in this thread.
> 
> It is a fact, all the good sites are taken, peak wind has arrived, so much for being renewable.
> 
> No amount of technology can help develop wind.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> All the best sites for *oil and coal *development are already exploited.
> 
> Sorry to let the air out of the (wind)bag.
Click to expand...


That is common sense, oil exploration has largely been achieved with very old technology, now the newer technology is finding oil that is harder to find. 

So are you thinking we will find a new technology to find windier areas?


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## Old Rocks

We are finding new small resevoirs. No new fields like those in Saudi Arabia. Not only that, the energy ratio to get the oil from alternative sources, such as bitumen sands, are 1 to 14, down to 1 to 4 for in situ recovery. For the oil that we have traditionally depended on, the ratio was 1 to 100.

Hubbert's Peak Oil is alive and well. The economys depending on oil will not be so lucky.


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## Old Rocks

There are huge areas of unexploited wind. All we need to is to put a grid out where the energy is.


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## mdn2000

Wind requires massive amounts of petroleum to manufacture all the components, why waste oil, why increase demand.

A new grid is not economically sound nor efficient. 

Worlds Largest Wind Turbine Generator - Wind



> Similar prototype turbines have been in operation since 2004 in Brunsbüttel, Germany requiring a 1,300 cubic metre concrete foundation constructed of 40 24 metre long concrete piles and 180 tons of steel. A further two 5M offshore wind turbines have recently (December 2006) been erected on the DEWI-OCC test field in Cuxhaven, Germany, and taken into operation. The Cuxhaven site is near to a North Sea dyke and so offers similar wind conditions to those found offshore. There are plans for at least five more of these 5M wind turbines to be installed during 2007



Worlds Largest Wind Turbine Generator - Wind



> Each turbine weighs over 900 tonnes including the 120 metre tall tower which has to be anchored in the deep water. Each turbine blade is 61.5 metres long and weighs under 18 tonnes. LM Glasfiber, the turbine blade manufacturer, has made quite some achievement to keep the weight down so low thereby reducing the financial and environmental costs of building wind turbine



One foundation requires 2,811 tons of concrete

We are going to build 10,000 individual Wind Turbines.

The Wind Farm's foundation will require 28,113,000 tons of concrete.

Answers.com - Weight of 1 cubic meter of concrete



> One cubic foot of concrete weighs about 144.05 lbs, so one cubic meter of concrete equals 2307.46 kg/m^3 or 5087.08 lb/m^3.
> 
> This can vary depending on strength, additives, and other factors. ASTM C138/C138M-01a is the standard test method for finding the density (unit weight) of concrete.



How much energy is used in concrete manufacture.

Environmental Building News - Cement and Concrete: Environmental Considerations



> Energy
> 
> Energy consumption is the biggest environmental concern with cement and concrete production. Cement production is one of the most energy intensive of all industrial manufacturing processes. Including direct fuel use for mining and transporting raw materials, cement production takes about six million Btus for every ton of cement (Table 2). The average fuel mix for cement production in the United States is shown in Table 3. The industry's heavy reliance on coal leads to especially high emission levels of CO2, nitrous oxide, and sulphur, among other pollutants. A sizeable portion of the electricity used is also generated from coal



Lots of energy used, as I say, the raw material manufacture of a wind farm increase our demand on petroleum, we will use less oil if we never build wind farms.

How much CO2 will be released into the environment? One ton of CO2 per ton of concrete.

28,113,000  tons of CO2 will be released into the atmosphere. We need tens of thousands of wind turbines.

http://www.epa.gov/ttnchie1/conference/ei13/ghg/hanle.pdf



> s. The national weighted average carbon intensity for cement production was estimated
> at 0.97 ton CO2/ton cement in 2001



How about one hundred cement manufacturing plants. Green Energy is a giant world wide scam, Gore is now worth over 100,000,000 dollars, Clinton is now worth over 100,000,000  dollars. How much will Obama make passing the law mandating green energy, we see what Obama is spending, a trillion dollars. 

I will not hold my breath as I wait for the self-proclaimed tree cutter Old Crock to respond to this post by the Electrical Power Research Institute Analyst, MDN2000

Google Image Result for http://c1.ecolocalizer.com/files/2009/01/air-pollution.jpg


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## Mr. H.

And now that Mr. Obamastan has declared millions of acres once again off-limits to oil and gas exploration, we may never know of its potential. It might only take 5 small reservoirs to equal a "Saudi Arabia" field but to dismiss the opportunity in such a cavalier fashion is pure idiocy.


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## uscitizen

MDN it is obvious you have not reached peak wind yet.


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## westwall

MDN I commend you!  That was a masterful exampl of leading someone down the primrose path!


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## mdn2000

westwall said:


> MDN I commend you!  That was a masterful exampl of leading someone down the primrose path!



My handicap of course is I have not had the opportunity to work on or around wind farms. I am not at that disadvantage when it comes to refineries, mining operations, geothermal plants and nuclear power.


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## uscitizen

My wind farm failed.  Either bad seeds or the wrong fertilizer I suppose.

Not sure how to harvest it anyway.  I could not find a wind combine anywhere.


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## mdn2000

uscitizen said:


> MDN it is obvious you have not reached peak wind yet.



I spent three hours at work last night researching my post. Not hard research but constant. And I say google is not a educational tool, its not that I learned but just putting together what I know with links that allow a reader not to have to take my word for it was time consuming. 

Yes, just touching on the foundation I have not reached my "peak wind", that is funny and if I could I would give you rep for making me laugh at myself, that is the best humor when one is made to laugh at oneself. 

I am not even done addressing the foundation, I have not addressed the steel in the foundation, 170 tons. These figures seemed so incredible, even to me, I had to look them up three and four times, it just seems unreal the amount of raw materials that goes into a wind farm.

And that is the key to everything happening in our government, besides the governments ability to tax us to make these projects possible the number one issue of importance is energy. 

Cement producers will make billions of dollars, does anyone doubt that people will exploit this fact politically. What is the temptation when riches beyond John D. Rockefeller's dreams are possible with a couple seemingly simple laws bought by special interest.

Those who own the mines for the raw materials to make cement will profit. At this point I must research who produces each raw material that goes into concrete, I must identify the union that truck drivers belong to, I must look into the union of the miners, I must identify the unions that the workers at the actual cement plant belong to. I than need to find if they contribute to political campaigns, where the pension funds are invested. 

This is why I find it so insulting when people just post a link and think they made the point and the discussion is over. 

There are too many factors to consider. 

Thus far everything I have mentioned is pertaining only to the concrete foundations of a single wind turbine. 

What about land issues, is it BLM land, I need to find the source, I need to link. I need to find out who owns the land, I need to see if I can find if he contributes, lobbies, or is a friend of politicians. 

I also need to see who gets paid to do the research, who makes all the reports connected with a wind farm. 

All this should be done now before I go on to the structure of the wind mill. 

What about regulations, I should of addressed this before anything else, what about the lawyers and consultants that guides a corporation through this process.

I need to do this all to prove a lumber jack is nothing more than a lumber jack, that is old crock, he swings an ax and cuts down a tree, a perfect metaphor, old crock swings his ax and posts a link and I alone, without the assistance of heavy equipment must pick up the tree, (a young blond just walked by in the hotel that made me say, oh my god, very hot), I must strip off each branch until I can expose the bark, then I peel off the bark.

Yet before I can do that Old Crock throws Geothermal at me. 

Old Crock who dropped out of high school to chop down old growth forests in Oregon simply links, and links, Old Crock the lumber jack just swings, no thought, he just knows he needs to swing his ax over and over, until I get tired, Old Crock has been swinging that same ax his entire life.

Well, my time here is almost finished for the year, I will not work the next six weeks hence I will not post. Maybe a bit to keep a thread or two of mine free of Old Crock being able to call me a liar while my back is turned.

Old Crock knows when he is beat, Old Crock will ignore his posts, Old Crock will ignore his links, Old Crock will ignore everything, in a week or two Old Crock will find new tired articles and repost the same ax-swinging, mindless, links.

Peak Wind, and I have yet to finish addressing the foundation.


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## mdn2000

uscitizen said:


> My wind farm failed.  Either bad seeds or the wrong fertilizer I suppose.
> 
> Not sure how to harvest it anyway.  I could not find a wind combine anywhere.



Take the band-aids off your mouth, if you looked in the mirror you would see what we see.


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## Old Rocks

Poor old mdn. Just keeps posting one stupid comment after another.

Capital Press agriculture news

PGE signs preliminary deal for wind farm rights 



PORTLAND, Ore. (AP) -- Portland General Electric Co. has signed a preliminary agreement to buy development rights on a huge new wind farm planned near Condon in eastern Oregon. 


The Oregonian reports that the deal gives PGE exclusive rights through the end of the year to buy the project from Renewable Energy Systems Americas Inc. Terms of the agreement have not been disclosed. 


RES is still seeking state permits for the wind farm, while PGE needs a waiver from Oregon regulators to avoid the normal competitive bidding process. 


The Rock Creek wind farm could encompass more than 100 square miles and produce 400 to 550 megawatts of power.


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## Old Rocks

Drove down that way a couple of weeks ago, and those beuatiful babies are already being put into place.


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## mdn2000

Old Rocks said:


> Drove down that way a couple of weeks ago, and those beuatiful babies are already being put into place.



Old Crock, did you take your ax.


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## Ropey

Indeed. And we can not find any new sources because we are told none exist. There can only be one wind source. It must be the ultimate wind source since all others either are non existent or produce minimally in comparison to the one wind to rule them all.

Hmm.. One wind, one ring, both fantasy....

Great comparison mdn... 





mdn2000 said:


> According to industry experts, in the United States, we have reached peak wind, every easy accessible site has been developed.
> 
> All the best sites for wind development are already exploited.
> 
> Sorry to let the air out of the bag.
> 
> There are stories on the web I can link to if people take interest in this thread.
> 
> It is a fact, all the good sites are taken, peak wind has arrived, so much for being renewable.
> 
> No amount of technology can help develop wind.


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## Oddball

loosecannon said:


> mdn2000 said:
> 
> 
> 
> According to industry experts, in the United States, we have reached peak wind, every easy accessible site has been developed.
> 
> All the best sites for wind development are already exploited.
> 
> Sorry to let the air out of the bag.
> 
> There are stories on the web I can link to if people take interest in this thread.
> 
> It is a fact, all the good sites are taken, peak wind has arrived, so much for being renewable.
> 
> No amount of technology can help develop wind.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> All the best sites for *oil and coal *development are already exploited.
> 
> Sorry to let the air out of the (wind)bag.
Click to expand...

Bullshit.

America is the Saudi Arabia of coal....We have enough *known* reserves to burn for the next 500 years.

Great thread, BTW.


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## mdn2000

I am tired, my Hotel bed is killing me, I am working 12 hours a night, I slept three yesterday, four the day before, I am beat, this morning I will sleep on the floor and see if that helps.

Sorry, boy, I wish I was right because I feel a bit foolish. I did scratch my head and thought that did not sound right,


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## Big Fitz

mdn2000 said:


> loosecannon said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> mdn2000 said:
> 
> 
> 
> According to industry experts, in the United States, we have reached peak wind, every easy accessible site has been developed.
> 
> All the best sites for wind development are already exploited.
> 
> Sorry to let the air out of the bag.
> 
> There are stories on the web I can link to if people take interest in this thread.
> 
> It is a fact, all the good sites are taken, peak wind has arrived, so much for being renewable.
> 
> No amount of technology can help develop wind.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> All the best sites for *oil and coal *development are already exploited.
> 
> Sorry to let the air out of the (wind)bag.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> That is common sense, oil exploration has largely been achieved with very old technology, now the newer technology is finding oil that is harder to find.
> 
> So are you thinking we will find a new technology to find windier areas?
Click to expand...

http://www.usmessageboard.com/conspiracy-theories/95777-steam-can-no-longer-be-ignored.html

But but but...!  This COULD work!  

Hope for those struggling to accept Peak Wind.


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## Old Rocks

*Hmmm......   And we have not even started to develop the wind potential in South Eastern or South Central Oregon. Going to be a while doing that. It is quite extensive, and the area is also prime for geo-thermal and solar.*

Banks Rush to Finance GE 845 MW Wind Project

Exclusive: Banks Rush to Finance 845 MW GE Wind Project
General Electric, at a time when funding remains tight, is having no problem attracting funders to support the construction of a massive  wind farm it is developing in the Pacific Northwest.

GE and partner Caithness Energy are on track to close financing supporting the construction of its 845-megawatt, Shepherds Flat wind farm in Oregon in the next couple of weeks.

Last week West LB Securities and Citi launched the $1.385 billion debt financing supporting project construction. An industry source tells G.E.R. the deal has been well received and will likely be over-subscribed.


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## mdn2000

Old Rocks said:


> *Hmmm......   And we have not even started to develop the wind potential in South Eastern or South Central Oregon. Going to be a while doing that. It is quite extensive, and the area is also prime for geo-thermal and solar.*
> 
> Banks Rush to Finance GE 845 MW Wind Project
> 
> Exclusive: Banks Rush to Finance 845 MW GE Wind Project
> General Electric, at a time when funding remains tight, is having no problem attracting funders to support the construction of a massive  wind farm it is developing in the Pacific Northwest.
> 
> GE and partner Caithness Energy are on track to close financing supporting the construction of its 845-megawatt, Shepherds Flat wind farm in Oregon in the next couple of weeks.
> 
> Last week West LB Securities and Citi launched the $1.385 billion debt financing supporting project construction. An industry source tells G.E.R. the deal has been well received and will likely be over-subscribed.



Banks rush to provide financing with TARP and Federal bailout money. I wonder how many banks would be "rushing" to provide the financing had they not been bailed out by us taxpayers. What we do not see behind the scenes is what we need to know. So much for transparency.

General Electric is Obama, think MSNBC owned by General Electric, huge campaign donations and hundreds of hours of free campaigning by MSNBC, now we see the payoff.

Thanks to Oregon and California making it the law, you must have federal subsidized wind energy, you must pay the higher costs, there is nothing the public can do.

This is pure tyranny, people in Oregon get to sit on their lazy asses while we poor billions into worthless projects that benefit General Electric. Funny how all these wind turbines and generators are made in China where GE does not have to worry about pollution and the profits can be safely ticked away overseas.

GE and the Hudson river, how about that, when will GE clean the PCB's in the Hudson river.


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## Old Rocks

A great many of the turbines are from Vestus, which has it's US headquarters here in Portland.


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## Big Fitz

Do you realize that if we put up too many windmills we may stop the wind entirely?


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## Old Rocks

And what else would we expect of you


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## westwall

Yep, wind power is so great a billionaire oil man is bailing out because without subsidies they are a loser....

Major investor pulls out of wind power | Marketplace From American Public Media

And he wants to foist off his turbines in Canada where they have a law that says they have to use them...  yep that's "free market enterprise" at work for you!

T. Boone Pickens Plans Giant Wind Project In Canada - Eco-nomics - Stories from the Mother Nature Network - Forbes


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## Big Fitz

maybe wind can be renewable if we eat more beans and aim east.


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## hortysir

loosecannon said:


> mdn2000 said:
> 
> 
> 
> According to industry experts, in the United States, we have reached peak wind, every easy accessible site has been developed.
> 
> All the best sites for wind development are already exploited.
> 
> Sorry to let the air out of the bag.
> 
> There are stories on the web I can link to if people take interest in this thread.
> 
> It is a fact, all the good sites are taken, peak wind has arrived, so much for being renewable.
> 
> No amount of technology can help develop wind.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> All the best sites for *oil and coal *development are already exploited.
> 
> Sorry to let the air out of the (wind)bag.
Click to expand...

*correction*
All the best sites for oil and coal have been *leased* - not necessarily exploited.
 

Nevermind the fact that it's completely off topic


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## Old Rocks

westwall said:


> Yep, wind power is so great a billionaire oil man is bailing out because without subsidies they are a loser....
> 
> Major investor pulls out of wind power | Marketplace From American Public Media
> 
> And he wants to foist off his turbines in Canada where they have a law that says they have to use them...  yep that's "free market enterprise" at work for you!
> 
> T. Boone Pickens Plans Giant Wind Project In Canada - Eco-nomics - Stories from the Mother Nature Network - Forbes



At present, because of the amount of wind power already cited in Texas, there is often an oversupply of power from them. Even as the East Coast is in need of power. You see, Texas is on a seperate grid from from the rest of the US, and there is inadaquete interconnects to ship the excess power in Texas to where it is needed on the East Coast. There is a very good article on this in the November 2010, Scientific American.


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## westwall

Old Rocks said:


> westwall said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yep, wind power is so great a billionaire oil man is bailing out because without subsidies they are a loser....
> 
> Major investor pulls out of wind power | Marketplace From American Public Media
> 
> And he wants to foist off his turbines in Canada where they have a law that says they have to use them...  yep that's "free market enterprise" at work for you!
> 
> T. Boone Pickens Plans Giant Wind Project In Canada - Eco-nomics - Stories from the Mother Nature Network - Forbes
> 
> 
> 
> 
> At present, because of the amount of wind power already cited in Texas, there is often an oversupply of power from them. Even as the East Coast is in need of power. You see, Texas is on a seperate grid from from the rest of the US, and there is inadaquete interconnects to ship the excess power in Texas to where it is needed on the East Coast. There is a very good article on this in the November 2010, Scientific American.
Click to expand...






Yes I am sure there is a very good article in SA.  However Pickens calculated that wind becomes viable when the price of gas rises to 9 bucks per million btu produced.  Wind costs around 7 bucks per million btu.  Gas on the other hand can produce 1 million btu for right around 4 bucks.  And, here is the kicker, the gas reserves are more than ample to keep things churnin along for the next couple of decades.  One highly regarded analyst figures the price of gas won't even begin to rise till after 2016 and that only if the commodities traders get their hands in it. 

Pickens is no fool.  He invested a few million and figured he could use the wind power to further his gas programs.  He found out after spending a few more million bucks that it is a loser so he's bailing.

Cause and effect.


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## hortysir

Anyone that thinks the wind has "peaked" needs only to step out on to my front porch! 

We have a constant 30+mph wind going on right now....


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## uscitizen

As long as Fox and talk radio is around we will never reach peak wind.


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## Big Fitz

uscitizen said:


> As long as Fox and talk radio is around we will never reach peak wind.


Oh aren't YOU the moderate one!  As long as we have democrats there won't be peak wind?  Is that moderate enough for you?    Hyperpartisan namby pamby.


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## Old Rocks

The amount of wind being installed every year in the US is compounding by the double digits every year. And we have the potential to keep that up for quite a few years.

Wind Powering America: U.S. Installed Wind Capacity and Wind Project Locations

That site shows the installed capacity by the state each year from 1999 to present


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## Old Rocks

*Many interesting figures in this article. The instant that carbon capture is considered, the cost of coal and gas far exceed most alternatives.*

Cost of electricity by source - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The following figures arise for the costs of electricity production in newly constructed power plants in 2010:[citation needed]

Energy source Costs of electricity production &#8364;/MWh Costs of electricity production &#8364;ct/kWh 
Nuclear Energy 107.0 &#8211; 124.0 10.70 &#8211; 12.40 
Brown Coal 88.0 &#8211;   97.0 8.80 &#8211;   9.70 
Black Coal 104.0 &#8211; 107.0 10.40 &#8211; 10.70 
Domestic Gas 106.0 &#8211; 118.0 10.60 &#8211; 11.80 
Wind Energy Onshore 49.7 &#8211;   96.1 4.97 &#8211;   9.61 
Wind Energy Offshore 35.0 &#8211; 150.0 3.50 &#8211; 15.00 
Hydropower 34.7 &#8211; 126.7 3.47 &#8211; 12.67 
Biomass 77.1 &#8211; 115.5 7.71 &#8211; 11.55 
Solar Electricity 284.3 &#8211; 391.4 28.43 &#8211; 39.14


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## westwall

Old Rocks said:


> The amount of wind being installed every year in the US is compounding by the double digits every year. And we have the potential to keep that up for quite a few years.
> 
> Wind Powering America: U.S. Installed Wind Capacity and Wind Project Locations
> 
> That site shows the installed capacity by the state each year from 1999 to present






Yes, so long as the government is willing to subsidize their endeavors on the backs of the American taxpayer there are plenty of shysters who are willing to take the money.  Doesn't mean it's a smart, ethical, or proper thing to do though.


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## mdn2000

Vesta from Denmark is being touted as a success, yet Vesta went bankrupt and was saved by the United States of America, through subsidies given to Green Energy, through tax breaks, and the most hideous way of all, by California and Oregon passing laws mandating the use of Vesta's turbines. 

So all Citizens of the USA are increasing the debt the US government must repay, that is all Citizens are now taking money from our own pockets and making people of Denmark rich. 

All Citizens of the USA are seeing electric rates rise while Denmark enjoys profits only achievable through the tyranny of government, the USA government mandating the Citizens will pay higher prices for electricity and will pay higher taxes to make foreign companies rich beyond their means. 

A failed technology being propped up with billions of taxpayer money, USA's taxpayer money.

Vesta is an old company, over a hundred years making wind mills, no other industry in the world has received so much help in the way of free research, grants, subsidies, tax breaks, bankruptcy protection and Law mandating its use, and its still failing, still bankrupting companies, and now countries such as Spain.


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## Old Rocks

Vestas - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

History
Vestas was founded in 1945 by Peder Hansen as "Vestjysk Stålteknik A/S" (West-Jutlandish steel technology). The company initially manufactured household appliances, moving its focus to agricultural equipment in 1950, intercoolers in 1956, and hydraulic cranes in 1968. It entered the wind turbine industry in 1979.[9]

In 2003, the company merged with the Danish wind turbine manufacturer NEG Micon to create the largest wind turbine manufacturer in the world, under the banner of Vestas Wind Systems. After an operational loss in 2005, Vestas recovered in 2006, and continues to have 28% market share.[2]

In February 2009, the company announced the production of two new turbine types, the 3-megawatt V112 and 1.8-megawatt V100. The new models will be available in 2010.[10]


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## westwall

Old Rocks said:


> Vestas - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> History
> Vestas was founded in 1945 by Peder Hansen as "Vestjysk Stålteknik A/S" (West-Jutlandish steel technology). The company initially manufactured household appliances, moving its focus to agricultural equipment in 1950, intercoolers in 1956, and hydraulic cranes in 1968. It entered the wind turbine industry in 1979.[9]
> 
> In 2003, the company merged with the Danish wind turbine manufacturer NEG Micon to create the largest wind turbine manufacturer in the world, under the banner of Vestas Wind Systems. After an operational loss in 2005, Vestas recovered in 2006, and continues to have 28% market share.[2]
> 
> In February 2009, the company announced the production of two new turbine types, the 3-megawatt V112 and 1.8-megawatt V100. The new models will be available in 2010.[10]





The company was founded in 1898 as a family run blacksmithy.  We've warned you repeatedly about reliance on wiki!


Vestas | Wind. It means the world to us. | History


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## Old Rocks

A blacksmith shop in a small farming town is not a company. The modern manufacturing company was founded after 1945.


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## TheTraveller

Old Rocks said:


> Energy source Costs of electricity production /MWh Costs of electricity production ct/kWh
> Nuclear Energy 107.0  124.0 10.70  12.40
> Brown Coal 88.0    97.0 8.80    9.70
> Black Coal 104.0  107.0 10.40  10.70
> Domestic Gas 106.0  118.0 10.60  11.80
> Wind Energy Onshore 49.7    96.1 4.97    9.61
> Wind Energy Offshore 35.0  150.0 3.50  15.00
> Hydropower 34.7  126.7 3.47  12.67
> Biomass 77.1  115.5 7.71  11.55
> Solar Electricity 284.3  391.4 28.43  39.14


Is this for real? I was utterly dismissive of wind until I saw this. But why don't businesses consider throwing windmills on top of tall buildings, instead of solar panels, if solar panels are only around a sixth as efficient?


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## westwall

TheTraveller said:


> Old Rocks said:
> 
> 
> 
> Energy source Costs of electricity production /MWh Costs of electricity production ct/kWh
> Nuclear Energy 107.0  124.0 10.70  12.40
> Brown Coal 88.0    97.0 8.80    9.70
> Black Coal 104.0  107.0 10.40  10.70
> Domestic Gas 106.0  118.0 10.60  11.80
> Wind Energy Onshore 49.7    96.1 4.97    9.61
> Wind Energy Offshore 35.0  150.0 3.50  15.00
> Hydropower 34.7  126.7 3.47  12.67
> Biomass 77.1  115.5 7.71  11.55
> Solar Electricity 284.3  391.4 28.43  39.14
> 
> 
> 
> Is this for real? I was utterly dismissive of wind until I saw this. But why don't businesses consider throwing windmills on top of tall buildings, instead of solar panels, if solar panels are only around a sixth as efficient?
Click to expand...





No, the wind numbers are the absolute optimal amount.  They actually are only operating at full effect for less than 1/3 of the time.


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## TheTraveller

That's still better than solar - especially considering that the sun doesn't always shine on a solar panel, either. Although photovoltaics have been steadily improving for decades, they clearly have a long way to go before they reach competetive efficiencies!


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## westwall

TheTraveller said:


> That's still better than solar - especially considering that the sun doesn't always shine on a solar panel, either. Although photovoltaics have been steadily improving for decades, they clearly have a long way to go before they reach competetive efficiencies!






The big advantage solar has is in maintenance costs.  A big wind turbine will cost you around 30,000 dollars a year in maintenance.  Personal solar systems on the other hand are a few bucks to keep the panels clean.  The big industrial solar plants are however even worse maintenance wise.


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## TheTraveller

Really? But isn't it also true that windmills last longer than solar panels?


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## mdn2000

Windmills last about 20 years, half as long as a nuclear power plant, imagine all the garbage, the worlds largest electric power plant in size, with the lowest output by a factor of 1:1000, and its all garbage. Then we rebuild another wind farm, again the worlds largest amount of raw materials, that is how we save ourselves from oil, using more oil to create less by the way of wind turbines.


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## Old Rocks

A life span of twenty years for a wind turbine means that after twenty years, you use a crane to pick the turbine off of the tower, put a new one on, and send the old one in for a rebuild. Much simpler than handling the radioactive contamination in the rebuild of a nuclear plant.


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## Old Rocks

TheTraveller said:


> Old Rocks said:
> 
> 
> 
> Energy source Costs of electricity production /MWh Costs of electricity production ct/kWh
> Nuclear Energy 107.0  124.0 10.70  12.40
> Brown Coal 88.0    97.0 8.80    9.70
> Black Coal 104.0  107.0 10.40  10.70
> Domestic Gas 106.0  118.0 10.60  11.80
> Wind Energy Onshore 49.7    96.1 4.97    9.61
> Wind Energy Offshore 35.0  150.0 3.50  15.00
> Hydropower 34.7  126.7 3.47  12.67
> Biomass 77.1  115.5 7.71  11.55
> Solar Electricity 284.3  391.4 28.43  39.14
> 
> 
> 
> Is this for real? I was utterly dismissive of wind until I saw this. But why don't businesses consider throwing windmills on top of tall buildings, instead of solar panels, if solar panels are only around a sixth as efficient?
Click to expand...


*This is being actively worked on by many commercial firms. Here is one of them.*

Vertical Axis Wind Turbines - Manufacturers


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## Old Rocks

TheTraveller said:


> That's still better than solar - especially considering that the sun doesn't always shine on a solar panel, either. Although photovoltaics have been steadily improving for decades, they clearly have a long way to go before they reach competetive efficiencies!



Yes, no, and in between. Thin film panels have reached the point that they can be manufactured for less than a dollar a watt. Mounted on existing building, such as warehouses, and big box stores, these could handle a significant portion of the daytime electrical load. At present, with present efficiencies, siting them where the grid has to built to the site, not good enough yet. But there are a number of companies achieving efficiencies above 40% in the lab. When they can do that at one dollar or less a watt, solar will have come of age.


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## mdn2000

Wind is a poor source of energy, further, the design of Wind Turbines is bad, its a giant experiment rushed to market to fill demand created by Government funding, government research, government subsidies. 

Bearing failure caused by poor design, I should of guessed. How many of these monsters need to be repaired, all of them. 100% retrofit to protect human life, imagine that 30 ton turbine crashing to the ground during bearing failure. 

What is the cost, its not counted, it does not matter, we can ignore the cost. Nice way to make electricity, hidden costs not discussed.

Preventing Bearing Failure: Third Time Lucky at Oregon Wind Farm | Renewable Energy World Magazine Article



> London, UK [Renewable Energy World Magazine] Despite headline-making growth figures, the wind industry is still a relatively young one and as such, optimization of the technology continues. Indeed, it has been argued that some wind turbines have been pressed into production prematurely and have suffered from design-related failures within their first few years of operation as a result. The full cost of these failures, though often hidden by manufacturers&#8217; warranties, can be extremely high as, in addition to expensive repair costs, owners of such facilities lose revenue every second of downtim


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## mdn2000

What about human life, what do you say when an industry that only exists because of environmentalist and government kills a man.

Parents of technician killed in Oregon wind-turbine collapse file suit  Save Our SeaShore



> 20
> FEB/10
> 0
> February 06, 2010, 3:10PM
> 
> The parents of a 34-year-old technician who died when the 230-foot wind-turbine tower he was in collapsed to the ground in a Sherman County wheat field is suing for $7 million.
> 
> In their lawsuit, Gail Eikanas  and Jerry Mitchell fault the Danish turbine maker Siemens Wind Power A/S, the Klondike Wind Farms III and ownersPPM Energy, among others. Their son, Chadd  Mitchell, died in August 2007. He was the father of two.
> 
> The suit was filed Thursday in Multnomah County Circuit Court. According to the suit, the wind turbine's rotor went into "overspeed," causing the structure to crash to the ground and crush Mitchell.
> 
> In early 2008, the Oregon Occupational Safety and Health Division fined Siemens Power Generation $10,500 for safety violations, after a six-month investigation.
> 
> The agency found that Siemens didn't properly train or supervise the employees on the job, and that Mitchell and another worker had less than two months of experience and were working without a supervisor. Siemens disagreed with the findings of safety violations, and appealed the findings. It's not clear what the outcome of that appeal was.


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## mdn2000

And if that is not to convince you how about a new fraud we will all pay the price for.

How come we never hear any of this, only that Wind Farms last forever, they are renewable and clean, how clean do you think manufacture of a transformer is. 

Funny, I never here of Nuclear power plants with this problem and Nuclear power plants produce 10,000x's the power.

There is no such thing as a "Green Energy" industry, the only thing green is the name, Wind Turbine manufacture waste natural resources, you use more to create less power. Bad formula.

Why do wind turbine transformers fail so often? : Wind power design, wind turbine construction, renewable energy news | Windpower Engineering



> Why do wind turbine transformers fail so often?
> June 9, 2010 by KRemington
> Filed under Wind Power News
> _
> 2 Comments
> Tom Steeber, Vice President, Pacific Crest Transformers, Medford, Oregon, pacificcresttrans.com
> Using conventional off-the-shelf distribution transformers to cut costs is downright foolish. The unusual duty cycle of wind energy calls for an updated design.
> A rush to install wind turbines has outstripped the usual developmental learning curve, one in which new technologies mature by trial and error, and define equipment that is well suited for the job at hand. In this 21st century land rush to cash-in on wind energy, developers are often trading low initial costs for higher total costs of ownership which is eventually shouldered by wind farm owners and operators. Nowhere is this more evident than with wind-turbine generator (WTG) step-up transformers.
> 
> The WTSU model step-up transformer from Pacific Crest Transformers, intended for duty on wind farms, features round coils, a cruciform, mitered core with heavy-duty clamping and a proprietary pressure-plate design, as well as a premium no-load tap changer. Coil-end blocking with heavy duty 3 gauge steel bracing and proprietary pressure plates contains axial forces exerted during a fault condition. These forces can cause telescoping of the coils, shortening transformer life. A cooling system shortens the path that heat generated within core and coils must take to reach the cooling fluid.
> These devices take the approximately 460 V from the generator and step it up to about 34.5 kV. Then a collector on the wind farm further steps the synchronized power from a group of turbines to that of the grid, often 138 kV or more.
> Historically the WTG transformer function has been handled by conventional, off-the-shelf distribution transformers. But a relatively large number of recent failures has convinced many that WTG transformer designs must be substantially more durable.
> In fact, using conventional off-the-shelf distribution transformers as a low cost solution is folly. Some site operators keep spare transformers at their wind farms to fix the frequent outages caused by standard distribution transformers used where they do not belong. That is a waste of capit


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