# Refugees and the right to return



## P F Tinmore (Jun 21, 2017)

[Here is an article which is asking to become a thread. Who will start one? ]
All The News Anti-Israel Posters Will Not Read Or Discuss

That would be me.

Susan Akram
B.A., with honors, University of Michigan at Ann Arbor
J.D., Georgetown University Law Center
Diplome in International Human Rights, Institut International des Droits de l’Homme, Strasbourg (France)


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## Toddsterpatriot (Jun 21, 2017)

They should return.
To any other failed Muslim nation.
Of course no Muslim nation wants them.
An entire world of whiney Muslims, and the Pallies are too whiney for them to stand.


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## SassyIrishLass (Jun 21, 2017)

The Palis are a bunch of wandering nomads, nobody wants them...for good reason


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## Hollie (Jun 21, 2017)

P F Tinmore said:


> [Here is an article which is asking to become a thread. Who will start one? ]
> All The News Anti-Israel Posters Will Not Read Or Discuss
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That's the same silly YouTube video you have cut and pasted multiple times across multiple threads. 

That horse is not just dead, but has joined _Pliohippus as _a Montanan fossil_. _


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## P F Tinmore (Jun 21, 2017)

Hollie said:


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I know but it is still news if you haven't watched it yet.


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## Hollie (Jun 21, 2017)

P F Tinmore said:


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It's not news. It's spamming.


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## Shusha (Jun 21, 2017)

The solution to the problem of the refugees originating from the Israeli/Arab conflict is easy enough in concept.  It can be accomplished, in part, by including them in the other conventions and legal instruments which were created and still exist for refugees today. 

A solution:

1.  must be a durable solution and release all peoples from their refugee status.  
2.  must not be imposed upon individual refugees -- they must have options and choice.
3.  must not threaten the existence of either the Jewish State nor the potential Arab State.
4.  must be equally applied to both Arab and Jewish refugees (and their descendants).
5.  should focus on practical and not philosophical ideals.


I suggest:


All "refugees" who have been adequately re-settled should no longer be considered refugees, and as such have no special status.
All refugees of the original conflict who have not been resettled be given the option to a) be settled in the territory of their birth b) be settled in the territory of their current residence c) to be settled in the territory from which they were expelled d) to be settled in another host country (with host country's approval).
All descendants of refugees who have not been resettled be given the option to a) be settled in the territory of their birth b) be settled in the territory of their current residence c) be settled in the appropriate Jewish or Arab State in the territory of the conflict d) to be settled in another host country as above.
All refugees of the original conflict (or their immediate families) should receive compensation for losses.
All governments must be required to provide fair and equal citizenship to all refugees re-settled in this manner.

This is pretty much what is done in all other cases, and should have been done, long ago, in this one.


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## ProudVeteran76 (Jun 21, 2017)

Shusha said:


> The solution to the problem of the refugees originating from the Israeli/Arab conflict is easy enough in concept.  It can be accomplished, in part, by including them in the other conventions and legal instruments which were created and still exist for refugees today.
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A key phrase of the UN at the time was "Live in peace with your neighbors" something the Palestinians don't intend to do.


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## montelatici (Jun 22, 2017)

ProudVeteran76 said:


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Would you "live in peace" with people that came into your house without your permission took over most of the rooms of your house for themselves and threw half of your family completely out of your house?


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## MJB12741 (Jun 22, 2017)

P F Tinmore said:


> [Here is an article which is asking to become a thread. Who will start one? ]
> All The News Anti-Israel Posters Will Not Read Or Discuss
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OUTSTANDING POST!  International law grants the Palestinians a right of return.  And yet every Arab country refuses to allow the Palestinians this international right.  How can anyone forgive the Arab countries for the treatment of their own Palestinians?

From Egypt to Saudi Arabia, the Arab world has abandoned the Palestinians


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## Toddsterpatriot (Jun 22, 2017)

montelatici said:


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I agree, all Muslims need to move to Muslim nations.


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## Correll (Jun 22, 2017)

P F Tinmore said:


> [Here is an article which is asking to become a thread. Who will start one? ]
> All The News Anti-Israel Posters Will Not Read Or Discuss
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Anyone in favor of the right to return does not want peace.

They want to destroy Israel and have another Diaspora.


Or worse.


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## montelatici (Jun 22, 2017)

Correll said:


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Anyone who favors the right of return, favors justice and the rule of law.


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## Toddsterpatriot (Jun 22, 2017)

montelatici said:


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Muslims talking about justice. LOL!


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## P F Tinmore (Jun 22, 2017)

Correll said:


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Sure they want peace. They just don't want Israel's version of peace.


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## MJB12741 (Jun 22, 2017)

montelatici said:


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Right on Monte.  And who said Monte is an imbecile?  So what can we all do to help convince the Arab countries to grant a right of return for their Palestinians?


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## montelatici (Jun 22, 2017)

MJB12741 said:


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The Palestinians come from Palestine how could they possibly be from somewhere their ancestors have never been?  Perhaps you are confusing the Palestinians with the European Zionists that invaded Palestine, their ancestors do come from elswhere outside of Palestine, a place called Europe.


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## Correll (Jun 22, 2017)

montelatici said:


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You addressed none of my points, yet indicated disagreement. 

The act of someone who is afraid, or ashamed of admitting their real position.


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## Correll (Jun 22, 2017)

P F Tinmore said:


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Enacting the RIght of return would not bring peace, but further war, and, eventually for the Muslims, victory.


Perhaps a radioactive victory of ruins and ash, but they seem to be fine with that, judging by their actions.


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## montelatici (Jun 22, 2017)

Toddsterpatriot said:


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Actually its the Palestinian Christians who represent about a third of the Palestinians in the Diaspora.


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## MJB12741 (Jun 22, 2017)

montelatici said:


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Indigenous Jewish Palestinians were from Palestine.  Not the Muslim Palestinian hoards of squatters.


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## montelatici (Jun 22, 2017)

Correll said:


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30% of the Palestinian Diaspora is Christian.  They want to return too. It would be a victory for western values.


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## montelatici (Jun 22, 2017)

MJB12741 said:


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The indigenous people were not Jews as there were people there before the Jews and there were other people there contemporaneous to the Jews, Samaritans, Edomites (e.g. King Herod was an Edomite whose father converted to Judaism) etc.  In any case all those people, the vast majority,  converted to Christianity at the end of the 4th Century when it became a legal requirement to be Christian to live in Palestine, as everyone knows, including Zionists themselves.

*"Native Population almost wholly descended from Jews who had been forcibly converted to Christianity..."*

*Native Population almost wholly descended from Jews who had been forcibly converted*


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## Correll (Jun 22, 2017)

montelatici said:


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Drowning a nation in blood and fire is not a western value. That is what The Right To Return is all about.


That you have enough shame to want to hide from that, is to your credit.


There is hope for you yet.


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## Shusha (Jun 22, 2017)

The customary practice (and law) at the time was that population transfers were both permissible and practical.  There are numerous instances involving several million people.  The Palestinian people should have been resettled in the ME nations in which they found themselves, just as the Jewish expellees were resettled in Israel, and millions of others were resettled in their various nations during that time.  It was an egregious error not to do so, and it has resulted in generations of unnecessary suffering.

Its time for this to end.  Long past.  The solution is not going to be found in senselessly arguing about the past -- but on focusing on making a plan for the future.  

The idea that 6 million Arabs must be returned to Israel is ridiculous.  There is no precedent or customary law, nor written law, nor actual practice for this sort of "solution".  It would spell the destruction of Israel, which must not happen as it is morally abhorrent to willfully cause the destruction of a State and deny the Jewish people their inherent rights to self-determination, self-government and sovereignty on their cultural, ancestral and historic lands.  

The equivalent would be to demand that 6 million Jews be returned to Lebanon, where they had been residing for thousands of years, while insisting that the Lebanese could not have self-determination, self-government and sovereignty and that it should become a Jewish State.  

The solution to the "refugee" problem is first to determine who is still a refugee and give them agency over their own choice.


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## louie888 (Jun 22, 2017)

Shusha said:


> The customary practice (and law) at the time was that population transfers were both permissible and practical.  There are numerous instances involving several million people.  The Palestinian people should have been resettled in the ME nations in which they found themselves, just as the Jewish expellees were resettled in Israel, and millions of others were resettled in their various nations during that time.  It was an egregious error not to do so, and it has resulted in generations of unnecessary suffering.
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> Its time for this to end.  Long past.  The solution is not going to be found in senselessly arguing about the past -- but on focusing on making a plan for the future.
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Lots of bullshit there, but yeah, the Europeans who stole Palestine could and should be resettled and then we can finally have peace.


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## P F Tinmore (Jun 22, 2017)

Shusha said:


> The idea that 6 million Arabs must be returned to Israel is ridiculous. There is no precedent or customary law, nor written law, nor actual practice for this sort of "solution".


You obviously did not watch the video.


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## Shusha (Jun 22, 2017)

P F Tinmore said:


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I watched the first half.  Its slow.  Not much actual information.

If you want to argue any of her points, present them and make your case.  

If you want to claim a precedent, show me one example of a massive return of people displaced by war and all their descendants.

Put up or give up.


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## Hollie (Jun 22, 2017)

louie888 said:


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Europeans stole Pal'istan?

Interesting bit of islamo-nonsense. As usual, you're left to make nonsensical claims and then run for cover under your burqa when the in-coming starts.


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## Toddsterpatriot (Jun 22, 2017)

montelatici said:


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After the Muslims get sent to Syria, maybe the Christians should be sent to Lebanon?


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## Toddsterpatriot (Jun 22, 2017)

louie888 said:


> Shusha said:
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*
the Europeans who stole Palestine could and should be resettled*

Cool. When can we resettle the Arabs who stole Byzantium?


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## montelatici (Jun 22, 2017)

Toddsterpatriot said:


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When did the Arabs "steal" Byzantium?  You need to hit the books moron.


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## ForeverYoung436 (Jun 22, 2017)

montelatici said:


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He means Constantinople, which was turned into Istanbul.


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## montelatici (Jun 22, 2017)

ForeverYoung436 said:


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Two morons.  It's hilarious to think I am discussing history with people that haven't a clue.  Again, when did the Arabs "steal" Constantinople?


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## Toddsterpatriot (Jun 22, 2017)

montelatici said:


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Who owns it now? They need to give it back.


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## ForeverYoung436 (Jun 22, 2017)

montelatici said:


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 May 29, 1453.


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## montelatici (Jun 22, 2017)

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Not the Arabs. Who should they give it back to?


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## ForeverYoung436 (Jun 22, 2017)

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Christians.


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## Toddsterpatriot (Jun 22, 2017)

montelatici said:


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Byzantine Empire - Wikipedia

When can we expect the Arabs/Muslims to depart from their stolen territory?


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## Toddsterpatriot (Jun 22, 2017)

montelatici said:


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The Holy Roman Emperor.


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## MJB12741 (Jun 22, 2017)

And the Zoroastrians get their native homeland of Persia back.


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## montelatici (Jun 22, 2017)

ForeverYoung436 said:


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What does that date have to do with "Arabs"?  Just admit that you and your buddy are ignorant morons.


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## montelatici (Jun 22, 2017)

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Why would the Holy Roman Emperor have anything to do with Constantinople?  He was in Germany.  You people are such morons.


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## montelatici (Jun 22, 2017)

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Posting a link to Wiki which shows you are a moron is not helpful.  Just admit you haven't a clue and are confused.  The Arabs did not steal Constantinople from anyone, moron.  It's the same with every other propagandist lie you people spout.


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## P F Tinmore (Jun 22, 2017)

Shusha said:


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*Sure, the rule of nationality and state succession.*

What this means is that when a territory changes hands, all of the inhabitants of that territory will become citizens of that new state. We see this regularly in treaties and legal documents.

Drawing up the framework of nationality, Article 30 of the *Treaty of Lausanne* stated:

“Turkish subjects habitually resident in territory which in accordance with the provisions of the present Treaty is detached from Turkey will become _ipso facto_, in the conditions laid down by the local law, nationals of the State to which such territory is transferred.”​
The automatic, _ipso facto_, change from Ottoman to Palestinian nationality was dealt with in Article 1, paragraph 1, of the *Citizenship Order*, which declared:

“Turkish subjects habitually resident in the territory of Palestine upon the 1st day of August, 1925, shall become Palestinian citizens.”​
*Resolution 181*

1. Citizenship. Palestinian citizens residing in Palestine... shall, upon the recognition of independence, become citizens of the State in which they are resident and enjoy full civil and political rights.​

What this means is that all Palestinian refugees are citizens of Israel.


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## Hollie (Jun 22, 2017)

P F Tinmore said:


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Now that's funny.


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## ProudVeteran76 (Jun 22, 2017)

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The Israelis want Peace. They just don't want the Palestinian's version of peace; To have a Palestinian majority which would anneliate them and eventually annex them to Palestine. For that reason alone, the " two state solution" is forever dead


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## Shusha (Jun 22, 2017)

P F Tinmore said:


> What this means is that all Palestinian refugees are citizens of Israel.



I'll get to the argument in a bit, but WAIT, WHAT?!

Are you conceding, that the entire territory is ISRAEL?!  That there is, in fact NO OCCUPATION?  That the Arabs of Israel have no rights to secession or independence?


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## montelatici (Jun 22, 2017)

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There are certainly quite a few Zionist dummies.  They must be the Christian useful idiots.  Hey genius, the two-state solution was the only solution that might have allowed the Jews to maintain a majority in a limited space, even though with no more large Jew populations inclined to move to israel, that was not a sure thing.  

Now that only a single state is possible, the Jews might be able to rule over a majority of non-Jews for a generation or so, but the demographics are not favorable for the Jews.  A western style democratic secular state or an Apartheid state with Jew rule are the only two options now.


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## Toddsterpatriot (Jun 22, 2017)

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Get the Arabs out of Byzantium.....now!!


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## montelatici (Jun 22, 2017)

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There are no Arabs in Byzantium.


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## Indeependent (Jun 22, 2017)

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That wet dream was supposed to happen last decade and the decade before last decade etc...
Keep dreaming if it keeps you going.


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## Toddsterpatriot (Jun 22, 2017)

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When can we expect the Arabs/Muslims to depart from their stolen territory?


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## P F Tinmore (Jun 22, 2017)

Shusha said:


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I am not conceding anything. This is assuming that Israel is a legitimate state that nobody has proven to be true.

If Israel is not legitimate and is merely an occupation that would be a different scenario.


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## Hollie (Jun 23, 2017)

P F Tinmore said:


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More of your confused muttering.


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## louie888 (Jun 23, 2017)

Hollie said:


> More of your confused muttering.


... she muttered.


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## montelatici (Jun 23, 2017)

Indeependent said:


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It's happened, the Jews are ruling in an Apartheid state.  No dreams necessary.


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## MJB12741 (Jun 23, 2017)

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It would take another Crusades to free all the stolen Muslim lands.


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## montelatici (Jun 23, 2017)

MJB12741 said:


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We could start with Palestine and reestablish the Latin Kingdom of Jerusalem.


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## ForeverYoung436 (Jun 23, 2017)

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That was a colonial project, hypocrite.


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## ForeverYoung436 (Jun 23, 2017)

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Muslims in Constantinople.  What are you trying to prove by splitting hairs?


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## Toddsterpatriot (Jun 23, 2017)

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Let's start with all the crappy Muslim countries first.


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## montelatici (Jun 23, 2017)

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Naw, there are Christians to be freed in Palestine plus it is tradtional for Crusaders to conquer Palestine first.


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## Toddsterpatriot (Jun 23, 2017)

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We can settle the Christians in Lebanon.
Fight the weak Muslims. Israel can help.


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## montelatici (Jun 23, 2017)

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Why would Christian Crusaders have anything to do with Jews.  At least Muslims revere Jesus Christ.  Under Crusader law, Jews would be the first to be expelled from re-conquered Christian lands. You need to think this through better.


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## Toddsterpatriot (Jun 23, 2017)

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*Why would Christian Crusaders have anything to do with Jews.*

I agree. That's why they should clear out all the Muslims and leave Israel alone.

*At least Muslims revere Jesus Christ.*

Yeah, Muslims love them some Jews.

*Under Crusader law,*

We'd boot some Muzzie ass.


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## xyz (Jun 23, 2017)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> They should return.
> To any other failed Muslim nation.


For example, the United States?

People like you were screaming that Obama wants to turn the US into a Muslim state.


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## MJB12741 (Jun 23, 2017)

ForeverYoung436 said:


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Yep!  Once stolen by Muslims it would take another Crusades to get back what was rightfully your land.


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## Toddsterpatriot (Jun 23, 2017)

xyz said:


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Yes, the United States should also send our Muslims to a failed Muslim state.
I hear Syria is nice....plenty of free space.


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## montelatici (Jun 23, 2017)

MJB12741 said:


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Crusade are designed to return lands to Christendom.  Jews, like Muslims are considered pagans.

Deus Vult.

"On whom, therefore, is the labor of avenging these wrongs and of recovering this territory incumbent, if not upon you, you upon whom, above all other nations, God has conferred remarkable glory in arms, great courage, bodily activity, and strength to humble the heads of those who resist you ? Let the deeds of your ancestors encourage you and incite your minds to manly achievements:-the greatness of King Charlemagne, and of his son Louis, and of your other monarchs, who have destroyed the kingdoms of the Turks and have extended the sway of Church over lands previously possessed by the pagan. Let the holy sepulcher of our Lord and Saviour, which is possessed by unclean nations, especially arouse you, and the holy places which are now treated, with ignominy and irreverently polluted with the filth of the unclean. Oh, most valiant soldiers and descendants of invincible ancestors, do not degenerate; our progenitors., but recall the valor of your progenitors.


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## Toddsterpatriot (Jun 24, 2017)

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The Muzzies are the dangerous pagans.
Clear them out first.


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## ProudVeteran76 (Jun 24, 2017)

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Hey, stupid; The Arabs should have accepted the TWO STATE SOLUTION in 48; or certainly before '67 !!!!


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## montelatici (Jun 24, 2017)

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The partition in 1948 left a third of the Muslims and Christians within the Jew partition and would have relegated them disenfranchised never to achieve self-determination.  This, notwithstanding being a majority (when combined with the Muslim Bedouin population) because the UN insisted that Jews had to rule over non-Jews.  No people could have accepted relegating a third of their population, who still owned 90% of the land, within the Jew partition to subservience to Jews forever.


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## Toddsterpatriot (Jun 24, 2017)

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They should start and lose another war. Because losing land seems to be an Arab thing.


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## fanger (Jun 24, 2017)

I think the jewish Illegal immigrants to palestine should be offered the right of return, to whence they came.
Stealing Land seems to be a jewish thing


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## Toddsterpatriot (Jun 24, 2017)

fanger said:


> I think the jewish Illegal immigrants to palestine should be offered the right of return, to whence they came.
> Stealing Land seems to be a jewish thing



*I think the jewish Illegal immigrants to palestine should be offered the right of return,*

I agree, illegal immigrants to that imaginary nation need to leave.
And then all the Muslims should leave Israel.


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## Shusha (Jun 24, 2017)

montelatici said:


> The partition in 1948 left a third of the Muslims and Christians within the Jew partition and would have relegated them disenfranchised never to achieve self-determination.  This, notwithstanding being a majority (when combined with the Muslim Bedouin population) because the UN insisted that Jews had to rule over non-Jews.  No people could have accepted relegating a third of their population, who still owned 90% of the land, within the Jew partition to subservience to Jews forever.



Your premise is in error.  Your premise is that a population of one culture can not live in a nation dominated by another culture, because to do so is "subservience".  By your premise, every nation must be completely ethnically homogeneous.  That is just a false premise.  

This is an Arab Muslim way of thinking, though, stemming from ideas of dhimmi status, which they falsely then project onto other peoples.


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## montelatici (Jun 24, 2017)

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> > The partition in 1948 left a third of the Muslims and Christians within the Jew partition and would have relegated them disenfranchised never to achieve self-determination.  This, notwithstanding being a majority (when combined with the Muslim Bedouin population) because the UN insisted that Jews had to rule over non-Jews.  No people could have accepted relegating a third of their population, who still owned 90% of the land, within the Jew partition to subservience to Jews forever.
> ...



No, it's the Zionist way of thinking that only people that practice Judaism must rule and that the state they rule can't be a secular state with equality for people of all confessions.


----------



## Shusha (Jun 24, 2017)

P F Tinmore said:


> I am not conceding anything. This is assuming that Israel is a legitimate state that nobody has proven to be true.



This is one of your more ridiculous arguments.  And a blatant double standard you hold against Israel alone.  Israel meets every legal criteria (the most obvious being recognition) and is just like every other state on the planet.  It doesn't have to "prove" its legitimacy.  Rather, you would have to conclusively demonstrate that it somehow doesn't meet the criteria of being a State.


----------



## fanger (Jun 24, 2017)

Shusha said:


> montelatici said:
> 
> 
> > The partition in 1948 left a third of the Muslims and Christians within the Jew partition and would have relegated them disenfranchised never to achieve self-determination.  This, notwithstanding being a majority (when combined with the Muslim Bedouin population) because the UN insisted that Jews had to rule over non-Jews.  No people could have accepted relegating a third of their population, who still owned 90% of the land, within the Jew partition to subservience to Jews forever.
> ...


A *dhimmi* ([ðimi]; Arabic: *ذمي*, meaning "protected person") refers to specific individuals living in Muslim lands, who were granted special status and safety in Islamic law in return for paying the capital tax. This status was originally only made available to non-Muslims who were People of the Book, namely, Jews and Christians), but was later extended to include Zoroastrians, Mandeans, and, in some areas, Hindus[1] and Buddhists.[2] The term connotes an obligation of the state to protect the individual, including the individual's life, property, and freedom of religion and worship, and required loyalty to the empire, and a poll tax known as the _jizya._Dhimmi had fewer legal and social rights than Muslims, but more rights than other non-Muslim religious subjects.[3] This status applied to millions of people living from the Atlantic Ocean to India from the seventh century until modern times.
Dhimmi - New World Encyclopedia
Americans pay a Tax to israel, does that make them Dhimmi's to israel or merely Dhummi's?


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## Shusha (Jun 24, 2017)

P F Tinmore said:


> *Sure, the rule of nationality and state succession.*
> 
> What this means is that when a territory changes hands, all of the inhabitants of that territory will become citizens of that new state. We see this regularly in treaties and legal documents.



Sure. So in 1925 all citizens formerly Turkish citizens became citizens of the geographical territory referred to as Palestine, under the control and tutelage of the British Government.  But where do you go from there?

What happened next was that the Arab Palestinians opted out of the State which was legally formed and engaged in hostilities with the legal government.  Further a number of other sovereign States became belligerents and occupied parts of the territory.
States are not obligated to maintain a hostile population during a conflict.  Neither are they obligated to return a hostile population during a conflict.  

Even if you concede (and you do not) that the entire territory transferred from British government control to Israeli sovereignty, there is no obligation on Israel to take in a hostile population.  

So, walk me through your thinking here.  It almost seems to me that you are claiming that the Palestinians can NOT secede from Israel.


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## Shusha (Jun 24, 2017)

montelatici said:


> No, it's the Zionist way of thinking that only people that practice Judaism must rule and that the state they rule can't be a secular state with equality for people of all confessions.



No.  Its accepted practice in the world that nations are formed around ethnic and cultural groups in order for those groups to fulfill their desire for self-determination.  It is what the Palestinians CLAIM to want (though not what they actually want).  

You are just applying a double standard to Israel and no other group.  For example, you frequently champion the rights of the Jordanian people as being a homeland for the Hashemites.  The Hashemites rule because, as you claim, they are a separate ethnic/cultural group who have (historical) rights to self-determination in the Kingdom of Jordan.  Why is it that you don't insist that Jordan become a secular nation?  Why is it you don't insist that the Hashemites not be permitted to "rule"?  Why is it that you insist that the Hashemites do not have equality for all people?




And Israel is a largely secular State with equality for all.


----------



## fanger (Jun 24, 2017)




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## MJB12741 (Jun 24, 2017)

fanger said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > montelatici said:
> ...



Disgusting isn't it?  Dhimmi's."  Peoples of all non Muslim faiths pay a tax to the Muslim rulers who stole their land.


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## Kondor3 (Jun 24, 2017)

Palestinian "_Right of Return_" ???

In what Alternative Universe do you expect this to unfold?

Put down the bong, fer Crissakes...


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Jun 24, 2017)

fanger said:


>



Cool British coin.


----------



## rylah (Jun 24, 2017)

fanger said:


>



Plaestina (Eretz Israel)1927 = פלשתינה (א"י) 1927


----------



## Kondor3 (Jun 24, 2017)

fanger said:


>


"_Hang onto your Confederate money, boys... the South is gonna rise again !!!_"


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## montelatici (Jun 24, 2017)

Shusha said:


> montelatici said:
> 
> 
> > No, it's the Zionist way of thinking that only people that practice Judaism must rule and that the state they rule can't be a secular state with equality for people of all confessions.
> ...



I do believe that all states should be secular.  Israel is a theocracy and non-Jews do not have equal rights.  Israel is simply a European colonial settler project that has become an Apartheid state.  

In any case, the Arabian Bedouins ruled by the Hashemites are not settler colonists from Europe, they are the native people of the area.

What fails to register in your pea brain is that there were native people living in Palestine and at least 95% of them were Christians and Muslims.  Europeans colonized the land under the protection of the British military.  It is no different than what happened in the creation of Rhodesia.


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## P F Tinmore (Jun 24, 2017)

Shusha said:


> What happened next was that the Arab Palestinians opted out of the State which was legally formed and engaged in hostilities with the legal government.


Link?


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## P F Tinmore (Jun 24, 2017)

Shusha said:


> Even if you concede (and you do not) that the entire territory transferred from British government control to Israeli sovereignty,


Link?


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## montelatici (Jun 24, 2017)

Shusha is such a tool.  Foreigners from Europe invade an inhabited land with the intention of colonizing it and he calls the natives hostiles.  Unbelievable logic.  The hostiles are the bastards that colonized the land.


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## Shusha (Jun 24, 2017)

montelatici said:


> Shusha is such a tool.  Foreigners from Europe invade an inhabited land with the intention of colonizing it and he calls the natives hostiles.  Unbelievable logic.  The hostiles are the bastards that colonized the land.



Oh!  The irony on a thread devoted to the right of return! 

Foreigners invaders usurp Jewish ancestral and historical land and ethnically cleanse the territory.  Then complain when those who were sent into a Diaspora return.  And then demand that the invaders and colonizers who replaced the indigenous people be permitted to return as a right over the return of the indigenous people.  The hypocrisy is unbelievable.  

Surely you are not going to deny that the Jewish were there and originated there.  Surely you are not going to deny that the Jewish people were there prior to any other existing cultural group.  Surely you are not going to deny that the Jewish people were not prevented from exercising their sovereignty, self-determination, self-government  by invaders and colonizers. It would be the height of foolishness to deny any of those things.  

Your denial rests on the idea that people forcibly removed from territory and their descendants lost all rights to the invaded and conquered territory. And yet you have the nerve to demand that the invaders are the ones with the true rights!  Unbelievable.  



And, Shusha is a she.  Shusha has noted repeatedly that she is a she.  Pay attention.


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## fanger (Jun 25, 2017)

Shusha said:


> montelatici said:
> 
> 
> > Shusha is such a tool.  Foreigners from Europe invade an inhabited land with the intention of colonizing it and he calls the natives hostiles.  Unbelievable logic.  The hostiles are the bastards that colonized the land.
> ...


Sand began his work by looking for research studies about forcible exile of Jews from the area now bordered by modern Israel, and its surrounding regions. He was astonished that he could find no such literature, he says, given that the expulsion of Jews from the region is viewed as a constitutive event in Jewish history. The conclusion he came to from his subsequent investigation is that *the expulsion simply did not happen, that no one exiled the Jewish people from the region, and that the Jewish diaspora is essentially a modern invention*. He accounts for the appearance of millions of Jews around the Mediterranean and elsewhere as something that came about primarily through the religious conversion of local people, saying that Judaism, contrary to popular opinion, was very much a "converting religion" in former times. He holds that mass conversions were first brought about by the Hasmoneans under the influence of Hellenism, and continued untilChristianity rose to dominance in the fourth century CE
The Invention of the Jewish People - Wikipedia


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## rylah (Jun 25, 2017)

fanger said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > montelatici said:
> ...



I get it now Zionists invented the Jews some 100 years ago. And the whole world bought it just like that out of thin air.
Actually there were no Jews or Israel prior to the internet.
_
"The Internet is a Zionist conspiracy to invent the Jews."_ Right?

We know who still identify as Arab Syrians and it's not the Jews...


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## P F Tinmore (Jun 25, 2017)

Shusha said:


> montelatici said:
> 
> 
> > Shusha is such a tool.  Foreigners from Europe invade an inhabited land with the intention of colonizing it and he calls the natives hostiles.  Unbelievable logic.  The hostiles are the bastards that colonized the land.
> ...


How many of the recent settlers (the last hundred years) went to reclaim a home or farm that they left some time in the past?


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## xyz (Jun 28, 2017)

montelatici said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > montelatici said:
> ...


Not really, some Zionists are actually atheists, although I rather agree they believe  the second part.


----------



## montelatici (Jun 28, 2017)

Shusha said:


> montelatici said:
> 
> 
> > Shusha is such a tool.  Foreigners from Europe invade an inhabited land with the intention of colonizing it and he calls the natives hostiles.  Unbelievable logic.  The hostiles are the bastards that colonized the land.
> ...



The European Jews were/are Europeans, they weren't returning to the Middle East, they were colonizing the place.  The native Muslims and Christians they found there are the descendants of the people that practiced Judaism, Samaritanism, Paganism that converted to Christianity and then to Islam.


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## ForeverYoung436 (Jun 28, 2017)

montelatici said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > montelatici said:
> ...



Just because you keep on repeating the same paragraph, doesn't make it true.


----------



## montelatici (Jun 28, 2017)

ForeverYoung436 said:


> montelatici said:
> 
> 
> > Shusha said:
> ...



It's just a fact.  The Zionists came from Europe.  The Muslims and Christians of Palestine lived in Palestine. But, you can believe the fantasy that you have been brainwashed with.


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## Shusha (Jun 28, 2017)

P F Tinmore said:


> How many of the recent settlers (the last hundred years) went to reclaim a home or farm that they left some time in the past?



All of them.


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## Shusha (Jun 28, 2017)

montelatici said:


> The European Jews were/are Europeans, they weren't returning to the Middle East, they were colonizing the place.  The native Muslims and Christians they found there are the descendants of the people that practiced Judaism, Samaritanism, Paganism that converted to Christianity and then to Islam.



You keep making the same argument.  The basis for your argument is that possession is the be all and end all.  And that invasion, colonization and conversion is irrelevant.  So now, the Jewish people possess it.  (Again).  What you arguing about?


----------



## montelatici (Jun 28, 2017)

Shusha said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > How many of the recent settlers (the last hundred years) went to reclaim a home or farm that they left some time in the past?
> ...



None of them.  Their ancestors were Europeans. It's a big fat hoax that they come from the Middle East. Your run of the mill Greek or Italian Christian has more Middle Eastern DNA than a European Jew. 

"Thus, the majority of Ashkenazi genetic heritage derives not from diasporic movement northward from the biblical homeland or from Near Eastern friends, but from within the indigenous peoples of Western and Central Europe."
Genes Of Most Ashkenazi Jews Trace Back To Europe, Not Middle East


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## P F Tinmore (Jun 28, 2017)

Over 100 posts and nobody refuted anything mentioned in the OP.

Interesting.


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## Shusha (Jun 28, 2017)

P F Tinmore said:


> Over 100 posts and nobody refuted anything mentioned in the OP.
> 
> Interesting.



Funny how you fail to respond to all the relevant posts and then claim victory.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Jun 28, 2017)

Shusha said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Over 100 posts and nobody refuted anything mentioned in the OP.
> ...


Link to a post that refutes any of the issues in the OP.


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## Shusha (Jun 28, 2017)

There are no issues in the OP.  Its a long video with very little information about what her point is.  When I asked you for clarification on what you wished to discuss and the content of the video, you failed to respond.  Make your case.  

Its disingenuous of you to fail to make a point and then claim victory.


----------



## Shusha (Jun 28, 2017)

Specifically, please respond to posts #7 and #25.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Jun 28, 2017)

Shusha said:


> There are no issues in the OP.  Its a long video with very little information about what her point is.  When I asked you for clarification on what you wished to discuss and the content of the video, you failed to respond.  Make your case.
> 
> Its disingenuous of you to fail to make a point and then claim victory.


I did give a specific issue with documented proof and you danced around my post.


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## Shusha (Jun 28, 2017)

Also #81.  You can try #82 and #93 as well, though I was talking to monte in those.


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## Shusha (Jun 28, 2017)

P F Tinmore said:


> I did give a specific issue with documented proof and you danced around my post.



The citizenship Order?

Actually, I asked you two very specific questions about that and you failed to respond.


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## P F Tinmore (Jun 28, 2017)

Shusha said:


> Specifically, please respond to posts #7 and #25.


#7 merely disagrees with the legal principles, it does not refute them.

#25, same.


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## P F Tinmore (Jun 28, 2017)

Shusha said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > I did give a specific issue with documented proof and you danced around my post.
> ...


Link?


----------



## rylah (Jun 28, 2017)

montelatici said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



All You have is sensationalist headline from a study that uses a questionable method of deduction.

Your study is actually saying:
_A substantial prehistoric European ancestry amongst Ashkenazi maternal lineages._

We're talking about a period of roughly between 3.3 million years ago until 5,300 years ago.

Why the deduction is questionable? Because we're using science and the results should be checked in a context of other studies. One such study on _'Ancient DNA Analysis of 8000 B.C. Near Eastern Farmers'_
refers specifically to the study You've linked, it say the following:

 This is in agreement with previous observations from other *Early Neolithic populations [27], [46], and underlines the importance of genetic drift processes at the beginning of the Neolithic* [16]. Nevertheless, the multi-population comparative analyses performed here also suggest that certain population isolates of Middle Eastern origin,* like the Druze*, could have retained an ancient Neolithic genetic legacy through cultural isolation and endogamous practices [47]. *Another interesting case are the Ashkenazi Jews, who display a frequency of haplogroup K similar to the PPNB sample together with low non-significant pairwise Fst values, which taken together suggests an ancient Near Eastern origin. This observation clearly contradicts the results of a recent study, where a detailed phylogeographical analysis of mtDNA lineages has suggested a predominantly European origin for the Ashkenazi communities [48]*. According to that work the majority of the Ashkenazi mtDNA lineages can be assigned to three major founders within haplogroup K (31% of their total lineages): K1a1b1a, K1a9 and K2a2. The absence of characteristic mutations within the control region in the PPNB K-haplotypes allow discarding them as members of either sub-clades K1a1b1a or K2a2, both representing a 79% of total Ashkenazi K lineages. However, without a high-resolution typing of the mtDNA coding region it cannot be excluded that the PPNB K lineages belong to the third sub-cluster K1a9 (20% of Askhenazi K lineages). Moreover, in the light of the evidence presented here of a loss of lineages in the Near East since Neolithic times, the absence of Ashkenazi mtDNA founder clades in the Near East should not be taken as a definitive argument for its absence in the past. The genotyping of the complete mtDNA in ancient Near Eastern populations would be required to fully answer this question and it will undoubtedly add resolution to the patterns detected in modern populations in this and other studies.

*Ancient DNA Analysis of 8000 B.C. Near Eastern Farmers Supports an Early Neolithic Pioneer Maritime Colonization of Mainland Europe through Cyprus and the Aegean Islands*
-------------------------------------------------------------

Now if we go further, we find out that actually most other Levant people who are not Arabians had European ancestry.
*Genome-Wide Diversity in the Levant Reveals Recent Structuring by Culture*


*Abstract*
The Levant is a region in the Near East with an impressive record of continuous human existence and major cultural developments since the Paleolithic period. Genetic and archeological studies present solid evidence placing the Middle East and the Arabian Peninsula as the first stepping-stone outside Africa. There is, however, little understanding of demographic changes in the Middle East, particularly the Levant, after the first Out-of-Africa expansion and how the Levantine peoples relate genetically to each other and to their neighbors. In this study we analyze more than 500,000 genome-wide SNPs in 1,341 new samples from the Levant and compare them to samples from 48 populations worldwide. Our results show recent genetic stratifications in the Levant are driven by the religious affiliations of the populations within the region. Cultural changes within the last two millennia appear to have facilitated/maintained admixture between culturally similar populations from the Levant, Arabian Peninsula, and Africa. The same cultural changes seem to have resulted in genetic isolation of other groups by limiting admixture with culturally different neighboring populations. *Consequently, Levant populations today fall into two main groups: one sharing more genetic characteristics with modern-day Europeans and Central Asians, and the other with closer genetic affinities to other Middle Easterners and Africans. Finally, we identify a putative Levantine ancestral component that diverged from other Middle Easterners ∼23,700–15,500 years ago during the last glacial period, and diverged from Europeans ∼15,900–9,100 years ago between the last glacial warming and the start of the Neolithic*.

The plots reveal a Levantine structure not reported previously: Lebanese Christians and all Druze cluster together, and Lebanese Muslims are extended towards Syrians, Palestinians, and Jordanians, which are close to Saudis and Bedouins. Ashkenazi Jews are drawn towards the Caucasus and Eastern Europe, reflecting historical admixture events with Europeans, while Sephardi Jews cluster tightly with the Levantine groups. These results are consistent with previous studies reporting higher European genome-wide admixture in Ashkenazi Jews compared with other Jews [11] and higher Y-chromosomal gene flow to Lebanese Muslims from the Arabian Peninsula compared with other Lebanese [5].

We see here Palestinians are closer to Saudis, Syrians, Jordanians and the Bedouin, while Ashkenazi Jews, although some very close to Europeans, mostly cluster with the Lebanese Druze and Christians: 







-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
*Blood purity of Jews - the last resort of team Palestine, when nothing else works to deny Jews their rights.*


----------



## Shusha (Jun 28, 2017)

P F Tinmore said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > Specifically, please respond to posts #7 and #25.
> ...



What legal principles?  You have not outlined the legal principles you wish to discuss.  Point form is fine.  I'm pretty familiar with the legal principles.  Just outline them.  For example:

1.  Citizenship Order of 1925 makes all residents of the territory citizens of the territory.
2.  Israel declared independence over the territory, making all residents citizens of Israel.
3.  Arab Palestinians are prevented by law from seceding, therefore they can not stop being citizens of Israel.

Just walk me through your thinking here.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Jun 28, 2017)

Shusha said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Shusha said:
> ...


OK, except the I do not understand what you mean in #3.


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## montelatici (Jun 28, 2017)

rylah said:


> montelatici said:
> 
> 
> > Shusha said:
> ...



I see you are of the 'If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bullshit.' school.  Let's cut to the chase, the conclusion is clear.  The European Jews are European, descended from pre-historic Europeans. The Zionists were descendants of the indigenous people of Western and Central Europe that stole Palestine from the native and indigenous people that were living there.

"Thus, the majority of Ashkenazi genetic heritage derives not from diasporic movement northward from the biblical homeland or from Near Eastern friends, but from within the indigenous peoples of Western and Central Europe."

Genes Of Most Ashkenazi Jews Trace Back To Europe, Not Middle East


----------



## rylah (Jun 28, 2017)

montelatici said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> > montelatici said:
> ...





You have nothing but selective vision, deal with it You just hate Jews and look for anything to deny them their rights. 


Palestinians are closer to Saudis and Bedouins, Jews mostly cluster with the Lebanese:




Levant populations today fall into two main groups: one sharing more genetic characteristics with modern-day Europeans and Central Asians, and the other with closer genetic affinities to other Middle Easterners and Africans. Finally, we identify a putative Levantine ancestral component that diverged from other Middle Easterners ∼23,700–15,500 years ago during the last glacial period, and diverged from Europeans ∼15,900–9,100 years ago between the last glacial warming and the start of the Neolithic.

Genome-Wide Diversity in the Levant Reveals Recent Structuring by Culture

* This observation clearly contradicts the results of a recent study, where a detailed phylogeographical analysis of mtDNA lineages has suggested a predominantly European origin for the Ashkenazi communities [48]*.

Ancient DNA Analysis of 8000 B.C. Near Eastern Farmers Supports an Early Neolithic Pioneer Maritime Colonization of Mainland Europe through Cyprus and the Aegean Islands


----------



## rylah (Jun 28, 2017)

I think discussing blood purity is disgusting, especially in light of recent history, but it seems team Palestine brings it up against Jews, several times in every thread.

This is a pattern. Many anti-Zionists are racists.


----------



## montelatici (Jun 28, 2017)

rylah said:


> montelatici said:
> 
> 
> > rylah said:
> ...



How is understanding that European Jews are Europeans that happen to practice Judaism "hating Jews".  It's just a fact.


----------



## rylah (Jun 28, 2017)

montelatici said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> > montelatici said:
> ...



First of all it's not true, the way You use those isolated studies in order to deny Jews their rights is a good example of _'hating Jews'. _You ignore all evidence in those same studies, that connect Jews directly to the land, while using a totally racist narrative.


Jews are connected to the land genetically, culturally and by longstanding presence. 

Be honest, own Yourself and deal with it.


----------



## Eloy (Jun 28, 2017)

rylah said:


> montelatici said:
> 
> 
> > rylah said:
> ...


Jewish immigrants from Moldova have no right to be living on occupied Palestinian land while those who are born there have been denied their right to live in the land of their birth.


----------



## Shusha (Jun 28, 2017)

P F Tinmore said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...




I'm asking you to outline YOUR argument. Using the legal principles you want to introduce into the conversation. Go.


----------



## rylah (Jun 28, 2017)

Eloy said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> > montelatici said:
> ...



Palestinian immigrants from Yemen, Egypt, Syria, Geece, Bosnia etc. HAVE A RIGHT to be living in the region of Palestine, which their ancestors colonized. 
However they have no right to deny Jews their rights, their claim to self determination cannot be conditioned on the elimination of the National Home for Jews.


----------



## montelatici (Jun 28, 2017)

rylah said:


> montelatici said:
> 
> 
> > rylah said:
> ...



You are using propaganda, I am using definitive genetics work published in scientific or medical journals. In this case "Medical Daily".  The European Jews that invaded Palestine were connected to Europe genetically and culturally.  You are trying to transform Zionist myth into fact.  It just won't work.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Jun 28, 2017)

P F Tinmore said:


> Over 100 posts and nobody refuted anything mentioned in the OP.
> 
> Interesting.



The Muzzies have no right to return to a nation they were never a part of.
They should move to Syria. Or any other failed Muslim state in the area.


----------



## rylah (Jun 28, 2017)

montelatici said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> > montelatici said:
> ...




You're joking right? I referred only to scientific studies directly, not some news sites that don't even quote the original headline of the study, like Your link.

Deal with it, Your _'propaganda card' _is a joke, You're just run out of excuses for the Joooo hatred. And it clearly shows in the fixation on blood purity.


----------



## montelatici (Jun 28, 2017)

rylah said:


> Eloy said:
> 
> 
> > rylah said:
> ...



The ancestors of the Palestinian Muslims and Christians are predominately the descendants of the indigenous people of Palestine.  The Europeans that colonized Palestine and evicted many of the descendants the indigenous are now there, the crime has been committed.  There needs to be a peaceful solution that removes Israeli oppression of and discrimination against the native people. The colonial project couched as a national home for Europeans of the Jewish faith was a ridiculous plan that was bound to fail.  There was no way the civil rights of the native people would be protected as the Balfour Declaration required.  It was a British colonial scheme and all British colonial schemes harmed the native people.


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## rylah (Jun 28, 2017)

montelatici said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> > Eloy said:
> ...



No, and has been debunked from Your own sources.

Nice deflection from a 'discussion' on scientific studies. I thought You claimed to be a professor... just another bigot.

Actually the classic caricature of an anti-Semite.


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## montelatici (Jun 28, 2017)

rylah said:


> montelatici said:
> 
> 
> > rylah said:
> ...



There is nothing anti-semitic about stating fact.  Nothing has been debunked, European Jews are genetically European.  Only crazy Zionist/Hasbara sites promote anything different. 

My own sources reach the same conclusion.  Ashkenazi Jews are Europeans with no more Middle Eastern ancestry than Greeks, Italians, Spanish etc.


----------



## rylah (Jun 28, 2017)

montelatici said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> > montelatici said:
> ...



Well and another scientific study contradicted it, along with many others that connect Ashkenazi Jews directly to Levant and to other Jews in the diaspora.This is obvious on all levels

This is not so obvious for the term 'Indigenous Palestinian'. I haven't seen anything that doesn't come either form Greco-Roman or Arabian origin that is defined as 'Palestinian'.


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## jillian (Jun 28, 2017)

P F Tinmore said:


> [Here is an article which is asking to become a thread. Who will start one? ]
> All The News Anti-Israel Posters Will Not Read Or Discuss
> 
> That would be me.
> ...



they weren't from there in the first place, jew-hater. they were from Transjordan. but Jordan doesn't want them either.


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## montelatici (Jun 28, 2017)

jillian said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > [Here is an article which is asking to become a thread. Who will start one? ]
> ...



Of course the Palestinians are from Palestine you racist piece of crap.  Transjordan is home to the Hashemite Bedouins not the Muslims and Christians of Palestine who are the descendants of the indigenous people of Palestine.


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## rylah (Jun 28, 2017)

montelatici said:


> jillian said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



The indigenous people of Palestine are the Jews, the indigenous Christians were messianic Jews. Arabians, Bedouins, Greeks and Romans are not indigenous to Palestine.


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## montelatici (Jun 28, 2017)

No, the indigenous people of Palestine were the Canaanites.  The Muslims and Christians of Palestine are the descendants of the Canaanites and the later settler colonist invaders.  The Arabians were invader/rulers, as were the Greeks and Romans.  The Bedouins were and are descendants of the indigenous Edomite tribes. The Zionists are European settler colonists.


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## Hollie (Jun 28, 2017)

montelatici said:


> jillian said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



Well actually, your so-called "Pal'istanians" are Arab-Moslem squatters / invaders largely from Egypt, Syria and Lebanon. Before that, Turk invaders. 

Your silly "indigenous people" slogan has long ago been debunked. Notwithstanding the land grabbers above, and to include Arab Bedouins and European xtian Crusaders, your "indigenous people" nonsense makes you look like quite the fool.


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## Shusha (Jun 28, 2017)

montelatici said:


> No, the indigenous people of Palestine were the Canaanites.  The Muslims and Christians of Palestine are the descendants of the Canaanites and the later settler colonist invaders.  The Arabians were invader/rulers, as were the Greeks and Romans.  The Bedouins were and are descendants of the indigenous Edomite tribes. The Zionists are European settler colonists.



Your error of omission is glaring.  The indigenous peoples of the territory were a variety of tribal peoples (including the Canaanites) who eventually coalesced into *the Jewish people.

The Jewish people *were victims of invaders (Greeks, Romans and Arabians).


Given that the Jewish people still exist.  You can't pretend that they don't in order to prevent them from having rights.


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## Toddsterpatriot (Jun 28, 2017)

montelatici said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> > Eloy said:
> ...


*
There needs to be a peaceful solution that removes Israeli oppression of and discrimination against the native people.*

I agree, move them all to Syria. No pesky Jews there to oppress all those groovy peace loving Muslims.


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## Eloy (Jun 28, 2017)

Shusha said:


> montelatici said:
> 
> 
> > No, the indigenous people of Palestine were the Canaanites.  The Muslims and Christians of Palestine are the descendants of the Canaanites and the later settler colonist invaders.  The Arabians were invader/rulers, as were the Greeks and Romans.  The Bedouins were and are descendants of the indigenous Edomite tribes. The Zionists are European settler colonists.
> ...


The first Christians were Jews. I think they might have coalesced into the Protestants of the American Bible belt. Maybe they should all head back to Jerusalem, Jimmy Swaggart and Pat Robertson. That would be a good idea.


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## montelatici (Jun 28, 2017)

Shusha said:


> montelatici said:
> 
> 
> > No, the indigenous people of Palestine were the Canaanites.  The Muslims and Christians of Palestine are the descendants of the Canaanites and the later settler colonist invaders.  The Arabians were invader/rulers, as were the Greeks and Romans.  The Bedouins were and are descendants of the indigenous Edomite tribes. The Zionists are European settler colonists.
> ...



Don't be silly even your fairy tale bible denies that.


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## montelatici (Jun 28, 2017)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> montelatici said:
> 
> 
> > rylah said:
> ...



Why should they leave their ancestral homeland?


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## P F Tinmore (Jun 29, 2017)

ForeverYoung436 said:


> montelatici said:
> 
> 
> > No, the indigenous people of Palestine were the Canaanites.  The Muslims and Christians of Palestine are the descendants of the Canaanites and the later settler colonist invaders.  The Arabians were invader/rulers, as were the Greeks and Romans.  The Bedouins were and are descendants of the indigenous Edomite tribes. The Zionists are European settler colonists.
> ...


The Palestinians are the legal citizens of Palestine without distinction. Slicing and dicing people into different categories can only be for discrimination.


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## Roudy (Jun 29, 2017)

P F Tinmore said:


> ForeverYoung436 said:
> 
> 
> > montelatici said:
> ...


They are legal citizens of a country that never existed and never will?  Ha ha ha!


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## Coyote (Jun 30, 2017)

*Thread has been partially cleaned, and infractions/thread bans handed out.  Time to get ON TOPIC - which is "right of return".  *




P F Tinmore said:


> [Here is an article which is asking to become a thread. Who will start one? ]
> All The News Anti-Israel Posters Will Not Read Or Discuss
> 
> That would be me.
> ...




Followed by the FIRST post to actually address the OP:



Shusha said:


> The solution to the problem of the refugees originating from the Israeli/Arab conflict is easy enough in concept.  It can be accomplished, in part, by including them in the other conventions and legal instruments which were created and still exist for refugees today.
> 
> A solution:
> 
> ...



*Lets see IF we can get this thread on track without further derailing into predictable directions.*


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## Coyote (Jun 30, 2017)

For those who are confused - What is Right of Return
_The *right of return* is a principle which is drawn from the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights, intended to enable people to *return* to, and re-enter, their country of origin._​


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## Eloy (Jun 30, 2017)

Coyote said:


> *Thread has been partially cleaned, and infractions/thread bans handed out.  Time to get ON TOPIC - which is "right of return".  *
> 
> 
> 
> ...





Coyote said:


> For those who are confused - What is Right of Return
> _The *right of return* is a principle which is drawn from the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights, intended to enable people to *return* to, and re-enter, their country of origin._​


This is a good definition and one which demolishes #1 of the previous suggestions by Shusha, namely, "All 'refugees' who have been adequately re-settled should no longer be considered refugees, and as such have no special status."


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## Coyote (Jun 30, 2017)

Eloy said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > *Thread has been partially cleaned, and infractions/thread bans handed out.  Time to get ON TOPIC - which is "right of return".  *
> ...




It's a definition of what "right of return" means - not necessarily how it should be carried out.  In fact, the points Shusha brings up address the issues within that definition and the overly broad nature of it.


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## Eloy (Jun 30, 2017)

Coyote said:


> Eloy said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...


I disagree because the definition says refugees should be enabled to re-enter their country of origin whereas Shusha refers to refugees with quotation marks which is a code for them not being refugees and if they have been settled outside of the land of their birth they are not refugees. This is simply a wish to have the descendants of Palestinians who are living in the Occupied Territories and countries outside of the former British Mandate declared as not refugees. It is a violation of the concept of a refugee as you posted.


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## montelatici (Jun 30, 2017)

As stated previously, Palestinian refugees are administered by UNWRA pursuant to UN Resolution 302, which reaffirmed para. 11 of UN Resolution 194. UNWRA has specific refugee status rules established for Palestinian refugees alone. The definition of "right of return" for Palestinian refugees is stipulated by UN Resolutions that address the Palestinian refugee issue as administered by UNWRA.


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## Coyote (Jun 30, 2017)

Eloy said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Eloy said:
> ...



At what point do "refugees" stop being refugees and become settled *citizens *of another land?  The other thing is - SHOULD it include descendents?

and...How far back do you go...?  Human history has seen many wars and displacements.  Do they all have a right to return because their ancestors were displaced "refugees"?


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## ForeverYoung436 (Jun 30, 2017)

Coyote said:


> Eloy said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...



Very good point.  My parents were refugees from Poland after WW2.  My dad lived in a Displaced Persons' Camp in Germany after the war, and my half-brother was even born there.  My mom and her family lived in tents in Israel.  But that was 70 years ago!!  My parents settled into new lives about 65 years ago, and my sisters and I (all born here in America) don't even consider ourselves to be descendants of refugees.  When will the Palestinians become settled already?  How long must this go on?


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## montelatici (Jun 30, 2017)

ForeverYoung436 said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Eloy said:
> ...



When they are repatriated to what is now Israel, as per the UN Resolution 194:

"11. _Resolves_ that the refugees wishing to return to their homes and live at peace with their neighbours should be permitted to do so at the earliest practicable date....."


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## Coyote (Jun 30, 2017)

montelatici said:


> ForeverYoung436 said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...



This part has always been a wee bit problematic...


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## Eloy (Jun 30, 2017)

Coyote said:


> montelatici said:
> 
> 
> > ForeverYoung436 said:
> ...


Repatriating refugees and their children is only a "problem" because the Israelis refuse to honor UN Resolution 194.


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## Coyote (Jun 30, 2017)

Eloy said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > montelatici said:
> ...




...and some of the refugees don't wish to "*live at peace with their neighbours"...
*
Should decendents be allowed a "right of return"?

And again - How far back do you go...?


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## Shusha (Jun 30, 2017)

Eloy said:


> Repatriating refugees and their children is only a "problem" because the Israelis refuse to honor UN Resolution 194.



Repatriating refugees and their children and grandchildren and great-grandchildren is a problem for a number of reasons.  The most important of which is that the conflict is still on-going -- thus it is impossible to enact the "live at peace" part of the agreement.


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## Eloy (Jun 30, 2017)

Coyote said:


> Eloy said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...


People have a right to defend themselves against massacres, assassination, and assault by occupation troops and "border" police.

As long as the descendants refugees want to return then they have that right. For example, only two years ago Spain passed a law which grants the right of return to the descendants of Jews expelled half a millennium ago:
Spain passes law of return for Sephardic Jews




King Felipe and Sephardi Chief Rabbi of Israel Shlomo Moshe Amar in 2015


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## ForeverYoung436 (Jun 30, 2017)

Eloy said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Eloy said:
> ...



That was probably only a symbolic gesture.  Similarly, Israel should take in about 100 Arabs as a symbolic gesture.  Actually she did already--100 Syrian orphans.  So case closed.


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## Eloy (Jun 30, 2017)

ForeverYoung436 said:


> Eloy said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...


No. Read the accounts. It is the law. Any and _all_ descendants of those expelled from Spain have a right to return, dating back 500+ years.


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## Coyote (Jun 30, 2017)

Eloy said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Eloy said:
> ...



I suspect it was a symbolic gesture made by Spain.  Did they make the same offer to the Spanish Muslims who were expelled?

How far back should we go in allowing descendents of an expelled people a "right of return"?

If you take a right of return as an indefinate right (and I don't) - then every Jew has a right to return to Palestine as well as every Palestinian refugee.


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## Shusha (Jun 30, 2017)

The right of return is NOT to unbreak eggs, but to ensure people uprooted by war and conflict are not left in misery, but restored to a healthy, productive life.

This whole "right of return" as special treatment for the Palestinians has been a DISASTER for them.  It should be corrected immediately, in exactly the same way we treat other refugees.  But a child of Palestinian ancestry who was born to a wealthy family in the US, educated there and is now a lawyer with three children who will be attending Harvard is NOT a refugee.


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## Eloy (Jun 30, 2017)

Coyote said:


> Eloy said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...


Suspect all you like, they went back 500 years and offered a right of return. You don't like that, do you?


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## Coyote (Jun 30, 2017)

Eloy said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Eloy said:
> ...




I have no problem with it...although, if the offer was denied the Moors who were expelled then it's hypocritical.

The thing is ... *how far back do you go and who is included and who is excluded?*


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## P F Tinmore (Jun 30, 2017)

Coyote said:


> Eloy said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...


It definitely applies to the Palestinians because they have records of citizenship. It would be more problematic for those who don't.


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## Shusha (Jun 30, 2017)

P F Tinmore said:


> It definitely applies to the Palestinians because they have records of citizenship. It would be more problematic for those who don't.



But how far forward you go is also a legitimate question.  The purpose of this kind of human rights law is to prevent human rights atrocities, specifically, in this case, to prevent people living in stateless poverty in refugee camps surrounded by walls and barbed wire.  The global community is not supporting a human rights atrocity rather than remedying it.  And some Palestinians are truly suffering for it.  This needs to end.  Sooner rather than later.


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## Shusha (Jun 30, 2017)

This is another one of Palestinians ridiculous insistence to hold on to the ideas of past wrongs -- rather than applying solutions to real problems.


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## Eloy (Jun 30, 2017)

Coyote said:


> Eloy said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...


As the Spanish have shown, you go back as far as necessary to do the right thing.
All the descendants of the original refugees are included as the Spanish made clear.


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## montelatici (Jun 30, 2017)

Shusha said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > It definitely applies to the Palestinians because they have records of citizenship. It would be more problematic for those who don't.
> ...



The UN resolution 194 one of a few that apply to the Palestinian refugees  states:  "11. _Resolves_ that the refugees wishing to return to their homes and live at peace with their neighbours should be permitted to do so at the earliest practicable date..."

If the Israelis refuse to adhere to UN demands, there is not much "the world" can do.


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## Shusha (Jun 30, 2017)

montelatici said:


> The UN resolution 194 one of a few that apply to the Palestinian refugees  states:  "11. _Resolves_ that the refugees wishing to return to their homes and live at peace with their neighbours should be permitted to do so at the earliest practicable date..."
> 
> If the Israelis refuse to adhere to UN demands, there is not much "the world" can do.



The peace part has to be demonstrated first.  We are still waiting.


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## montelatici (Jun 30, 2017)

No, the process is that Israel repatriats the people (and their descendants) that they expelled and returns their lands and homes.  It is an Israeli administrative process that the UN observes.


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## Eloy (Jun 30, 2017)

Shusha said:


> montelatici said:
> 
> 
> > The UN resolution 194 one of a few that apply to the Palestinian refugees  states:  "11. _Resolves_ that the refugees wishing to return to their homes and live at peace with their neighbours should be permitted to do so at the earliest practicable date..."
> ...


In the sentence, it reads "return to their homes and live in peace". The return to their homes is mentioned first, then comes the peace. You are getting it backwards.


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## Shusha (Jun 30, 2017)

Returning to their homes is conditional upon their willingness to live in peace.  Once the condition is met, we can talk about it.  Not going to happen while the conflict continues.  Meantime Palestinians are suffering.  Something should be done.


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## P F Tinmore (Jun 30, 2017)

Shusha said:


> Returning to their homes is conditional upon their willingness to live in peace.  Once the condition is met, we can talk about it.  Not going to happen while the conflict continues.  Meantime Palestinians are suffering.  Something should be done.


So, how many returned to their homes and did not live in peace?


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## Shusha (Jun 30, 2017)

P F Tinmore said:


> So, how many returned to their homes and did not live in peace?



There is no peace. The conflict continues. The promise of conflict in both word and deed continues. 

It's not about individuals. I'm quite certain that individual Arabs can refrain from stabbing their neighbors. 

It's about the two communities. In order for the two communities to co-exist in peace there can be no more "freedom fighting" and no more "resistance". The Arab people have not accepted this in either concept nor in practical application.


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## P F Tinmore (Jun 30, 2017)

Shusha said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > So, how many returned to their homes and did not live in peace?
> ...





Shusha said:


> no more "freedom fighting" and no more "resistance"


Indeed, if there was freedom all of that would go away.


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## Coyote (Jun 30, 2017)

P F Tinmore said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Eloy said:
> ...


Is it dependent on records of citizenship?


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## Coyote (Jun 30, 2017)

Eloy said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Eloy said:
> ...


That is very broad then.  Given that the Jews were expelled thousands of years ago...do you then believe all Jews have a right of return to right an ancient wrong?


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## P F Tinmore (Jun 30, 2017)

Coyote said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...


That is a tough call. How can you claim the right to return if there is no evidence that you have any ancestors from that place.


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## Shusha (Jul 1, 2017)

No evidence that the Jewish people's ancestral, historical, cultural and religious homeland is Israel and Judah?  You've GOT to be kidding me.


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## Shusha (Jul 1, 2017)

What kind of evidence are you looking for?  Tell you what, let's send all the Palestinians to South America for a few hundred years.  Then tell me what kind of evidence you would be looking for to see if they still had the right to return?


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## Eloy (Jul 1, 2017)

Coyote said:


> Eloy said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...


Whichever Jews were expelled millennia ago did not need an invitation to return from the Romans in the meantime. Europeans converted to Judaism over the centuries and these were not the descendants of those expelled. Sephardic Jews made their home in El Andaluz and they contributed much to the culture of Spain. These were at home in Spain and did not identify themselves as refugees until they became refugees from their homeland when Spain expelled them. They can now return.


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## Eloy (Jul 1, 2017)

Shusha said:


> No evidence that the Jewish people's ancestral, historical, cultural and religious homeland is Israel and Judah?  You've GOT to be kidding me.


The homelands of the Jews have been all over Europe. The idea that there is one homeland for all Jews is a fabrication. The religion was established in Judea which became Roman and then Christianity was established in the very same place, Jerusalem. It would be astonishing for a claim to be made today as it was in the 11th century that Jerusalem is therefore the homeland of all Christians. Subsequently, Islam became established in the same place which is why we call it the Holy Land where three of the world's great religions had claim. 

Now it is time to quit the fiction that Palestine belongs exclusively to the Jews. It does not. No more than it belongs to Christianity or Islam. Palestine belongs to the people who live there and Palestinians who lived in what became the modern state of Israel which is flooding the place with Jews from the former Soviet Union and Poland, who have no claim on the land any more than Scottish Presbyterians, Bavarian Catholics, or Indonesian Muslims.


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## THAI EXPAT (Jul 1, 2017)

The Palestinian Arabs listened to the Grand Mufti and fled the Palestine territory to wait for the slaughter of the Jewish Palestinians, by the Arab World.. But the Jewish Palestinians won, and wouldn't let them come back. Gamel Abdel Nasser who had dreams of a United Arab Caliphate with him as it's Leader, demanded they be kept as a separate people and condemned any country who wanted to resettle them. That is why their children still live in CAMPS today.
After 70 years, all the Palestinians are DEAD, except the one's living in Israel!. There is no one alive to return that isn't in Gaza or the West Bank. What is this right of return you are talking about?


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## Shusha (Jul 1, 2017)

Eloy said:


> Europeans converted to Judaism over the centuries and these were not the descendants of those expelled.



Well, at least you recognize your own hypocrisy about the right of return applying only to some groups and some places.  (Interesting that you should support the return of Jews to Spain, but not to Israel and Judah where they clearly originated.)  

All this nonsense about "Europeans converting to Judaism" and being synthetic Jews and not "real" Jews is just so much concocted BS to avoid the inevitable realization that you apply the rules differently to Jews.


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## Eloy (Jul 1, 2017)

THAI EXPAT said:


> The Palestinian Arabs listened to the Grand Mufti and fled the Palestine territory to wait for the slaughter of the Jewish Palestinians, by the Arab World.. But the Jewish Palestinians won, and wouldn't let them come back. Gamel Abdel Nasser who had dreams of a United Arab Caliphate with him as it's Leader, demanded they be kept as a separate people and condemned any country who wanted to resettle them. That is why their children still live in CAMPS today.
> After 70 years, all the Palestinians are DEAD, except the one's living in Israel!. There is no one alive to return that isn't in Gaza or the West Bank. What is this right of return you are talking about?


Forgive me but you are coming late to the debate with repetition of an irrelevant argument which is not taking into account previous posts. Sorry.


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## Shusha (Jul 1, 2017)

Eloy said:


> The idea that there is one homeland for all Jews is a fabrication.



Silly.  Its like saying there isn't one homeland for the Irish and the idea that the Irish came from Ireland is just a fabrication.


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## Eloy (Jul 1, 2017)

Shusha said:


> Eloy said:
> 
> 
> > Europeans converted to Judaism over the centuries and these were not the descendants of those expelled.
> ...


Stop calling me names.
You are in error to claim that all Jews originated in Israel unless you are referring to the Jewish religion, in which case the same can be said for Christians and Muslims.
The Sephardic Jews who were expelled from Spain belonged to the faith community which began in Judea but Spain was their homeland, not Palestine. It is for this reason that the descendants of those who were expelled can claim a return to Spain today.


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## Shusha (Jul 1, 2017)

Eloy said:


> THAI EXPAT said:
> 
> 
> > The Palestinian Arabs listened to the Grand Mufti and fled the Palestine territory to wait for the slaughter of the Jewish Palestinians, by the Arab World.. But the Jewish Palestinians won, and wouldn't let them come back. Gamel Abdel Nasser who had dreams of a United Arab Caliphate with him as it's Leader, demanded they be kept as a separate people and condemned any country who wanted to resettle them. That is why their children still live in CAMPS today.
> ...



Actually, it is an EXTREMELY valid point, indeed the foundation of what we've been discussing all day.  Who are refugees?  Who has a right to return?  Is it a condition which can and should be passed on from generation to generation?  For how many generations?  What gives validity to passing on right to return?  How can we recognize, after the long passage of time, whether someone has the qualities which give them the right of return?

IF we define refugees as individuals, rather than generationally, then Thai Expat is exactly right.  There are very few still living to return.


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## Shusha (Jul 1, 2017)

Eloy said:


> Stop calling me names.



LOL


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## Shusha (Jul 1, 2017)

Eloy said:


> The Sephardic Jews who were expelled from Spain belonged to the faith community *which began in Judea but Spain was their homeland,* not Palestine. It is for this reason that the descendants of those who were expelled can claim a return to Spain today.



Okay, so let me see if I have this right, following your logic:

The Jewish people began (originated) in Judea.  But Spain is their homeland.  Right. 

I guess that means the Palestinians began in Israel and Judea but Chile is their homeland.


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## Eloy (Jul 1, 2017)

Shusha said:


> Eloy said:
> 
> 
> > The idea that there is one homeland for all Jews is a fabrication.
> ...


I regret to have to say that you have lost all sense of the argument for the right of return of Palestinian refugees.


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## Eloy (Jul 1, 2017)

Shusha said:


> Eloy said:
> 
> 
> > The Sephardic Jews who were expelled from Spain belonged to the faith community *which began in Judea but Spain was their homeland,* not Palestine. It is for this reason that the descendants of those who were expelled can claim a return to Spain today.
> ...


No; you've got it wrong again. The Jewish religion originated in Judea, not the Jewish people. It would be a fallacy to use the word "people" because that would imply that Jewish people today originated in Judea. This is not the case for Jews from Moldova.


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## Shusha (Jul 1, 2017)

Eloy said:


> No; you've got it wrong again. The Jewish religion originated in Judea, not the Jewish people. It would be a fallacy to use the word "people" because that would imply that Jewish people today originated in Judea. This is not the case for Jews from Moldova.




Sure.  And we always end up here.  There is no such thing as the "Jewish people".  And the Jewish not-people couldn't have actually originated in Israel and Judea, because admitting THAT would require you to give recognition to Jewish rights of return and self-determination and sovereignty.

The conflict will never end if either side rejects the idea of self-determination and sovereignty for the other.  

The right of return has to be considered moving forward.  Only moving forward. We have to find solutions.


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## montelatici (Jul 1, 2017)

Shusha said:


> Eloy said:
> 
> 
> > No; you've got it wrong again. The Jewish religion originated in Judea, not the Jewish people. It would be a fallacy to use the word "people" because that would imply that Jewish people today originated in Judea. This is not the case for Jews from Moldova.
> ...



With your logic, since the Christian people originated in Palestine Christians should have the right of return to Palestine.  You just can't get it through your thick skull is that what makes a person a Jew or a Christian is adherence to Judaism or Christianity respectively.  A Jew that converts to Christianity ceases to be a Jew and a Christian that converts to Judaism ceases to be a Christian.


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## Shusha (Jul 1, 2017)

montelatici said:


> With your logic, since the Christian people originated in Palestine Christians should have the right of return to Palestine.  You just can't get it through your thick skull is that what makes a person a Jew or a Christian is adherence to Judaism or Christianity respectively.  A Jew that converts to Christianity ceases to be a Jew and a Christian that converts to Judaism ceases to be a Christian.



My thick skull just realizes that by denying the identity of the Jewish people AS a Jewish people, you get to pretend that your blatant antisemitism is somehow logical.


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## montelatici (Jul 1, 2017)

Shusha said:


> montelatici said:
> 
> 
> > With your logic, since the Christian people originated in Palestine Christians should have the right of return to Palestine.  You just can't get it through your thick skull is that what makes a person a Jew or a Christian is adherence to Judaism or Christianity respectively.  A Jew that converts to Christianity ceases to be a Jew and a Christian that converts to Judaism ceases to be a Christian.
> ...



There is nothing antisemitic about facts.  An Inuit that practices Judaism is still an Inuit that practices Judaism.  An Italian that practices Judaism is an Italian.


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## Shusha (Jul 1, 2017)

montelatici said:


> There is nothing antisemitic about facts.  An Inuit that practices Judaism is still an Inuit that practices Judaism.  An Italian that practices Judaism is an Italian.



A Jew who lives in Italy is still Jewish.  And a Jew who doesn't practice Judaism is still culturally a Jew.


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## montelatici (Jul 1, 2017)

Shusha said:


> montelatici said:
> 
> 
> > There is nothing antisemitic about facts.  An Inuit that practices Judaism is still an Inuit that practices Judaism.  An Italian that practices Judaism is an Italian.
> ...



No, he/she is an Italian that practices Judaism.  There is nothing remotely similar culturally between an Italian that practices Judaism and an Inuit that practices Judaism.  Once an Italian ceases to practice Judaism he remains culturally Italian that practices another faith or no faith.


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## Eloy (Jul 1, 2017)

Shusha said:


> Eloy said:
> 
> 
> > THAI EXPAT said:
> ...


If the Spanish can do it for the descendants of Sephardic Jews expelled over 500 years ago, the Israelis can do it for Palestinian refugees and their descendants after a mere 69 years.


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## Shusha (Jul 1, 2017)

Eloy said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > Eloy said:
> ...



Except for the small problem that there is a conflict going on between the Arab Palestinians and Israel. Peace and recognition before we even consider such a thing.


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## Coyote (Jul 1, 2017)

P F Tinmore said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



What do you consider "evidence"?


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## Coyote (Jul 1, 2017)

Eloy said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > No evidence that the Jewish people's ancestral, historical, cultural and religious homeland is Israel and Judah?  You've GOT to be kidding me.
> ...



It doesn't belong "exclusively" to the Jews but you can't discount their ORIGINS there.  Unlike Christianity and other religions - Judaism is also an ethnic group.  Their history is recorded in their religious texts and parts of it are born out in archealogical evidence not to mention genetic evidence.  

Palestine has seen many movements of people and waves of conquest.  Given that - what are your feelings about Palestine being flooded by migrants from Egypt, Syria, and other Arab countries who "have no claim on the land" either?    The region saw immigration not only from European Jews but from Arab peoples who settled there.


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## Coyote (Jul 1, 2017)

Eloy said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > Eloy said:
> ...



I think I see what you are trying to say....but it doesn't work.  If Spain's Jews originated in Judea, were driven out of there and ended up in Spain, were expelled and dispersed once again and ended up in England.  By your logic - their "homeland" is anywhere BUT Judea.  Why Spain and not England?  Why Spain and not Judea


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## Eloy (Jul 1, 2017)

Coyote said:


> Eloy said:
> 
> 
> > Shusha said:
> ...


It must have escaped you that the Israelis consider their country to be a _Jewish state_.


Coyote said:


> but you can't discount their ORIGINS there.


I would contradict that the Jewish people have their origin in modern Israel.


Coyote said:


> Unlike Christianity and other religions - Judaism is also an ethnic group.  Their history is recorded in their religious texts and parts of it are born out in archealogical evidence not to mention genetic evidence.


Jews are not an ethnic group in any sense. Moldovan Jews are European and both racially and culturally indistinguishable from their fellow countrymen. As for using the Bible as history, such an exercise is not respected academically or scientifically.



Coyote said:


> Palestine has seen many movements of people and waves of conquest.  Given that - what are your feelings about Palestine being flooded by migrants from Egypt, Syria, and other Arab countries who "have no claim on the land" either?    The region saw immigration not only from European Jews but from Arab peoples who settled there.


All I know is that native-born indigenous Palestinians have been dispossessed of their land and displaced to the Occupied Territories and other Arab states to make room for an influx of Jews from the former Soviet Union and Poland.


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## Coyote (Jul 1, 2017)

montelatici said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > Eloy said:
> ...



Christianity is a religion spread by proselytizing - unlike Judaism.  Christians around the world have only religion in common.  Judaism can have converts, and there was marriage among other peoples during the diaspora (there would have to be in order to survive) but they've consistently traced their heritage to Judea regardless of where they've ended up.  Christianity has never done that.


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## Eloy (Jul 1, 2017)

Coyote said:


> Eloy said:
> 
> 
> > Shusha said:
> ...


Spain's Sephardic Jews did not originate in Judea but in El Andalus which was their native home for centuries before the Reconquest by the Catholic Monarchs who expelled them. The word _Sephardic_ simply means _Jews from Spain_.


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## Coyote (Jul 1, 2017)

Eloy said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Eloy said:
> ...



That is not the same as saying it belongs "exclusively to the Jews" and given the fact that many different religious groups do in fact live there as citizens that rather smushes the exclusivity idea.



> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > but you can't discount their ORIGINS there.
> ...




Moldovan Jews are European culturally and Jewish culturally - they always maintained their Jewish identity which is distinct.  Even secular Jews are still Jews.  It's not simply a religious identification.



> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Palestine has seen many movements of people and waves of conquest.  Given that - what are your feelings about Palestine being flooded by migrants from Egypt, Syria, and other Arab countries who "have no claim on the land" either?    The region saw immigration not only from European Jews but from Arab peoples who settled there.
> ...




The issue of people and place is a complex one and it's not as simple as one group displacing another.  While it is a lie that the land was "empty" when large scale Jewish immigration began - neither was it crowded.  There was a lot of empty land.  There were also Jews already there and a lot of historically Jewish places that were inhabited by non-Jewish Palestinians.    One side works hard to claim the Palestinians were all Arab invaders while the other side works hard to claim that the Jews were all European invaders.  So I what is the motive behind that?  To *deny the legitimacy of a people*?  Because that is what it certainly is attempting.

According to MidEast Web - Population of Palestine:


_*3. Zionist settlement between 1880 and 1948 did not displace or dispossess Palestinians.* Every indication is that there was net Arab immigration into Palestine in this period, and that the economic situation of Palestinian Arabs improved tremendously under the British Mandate relative to surrounding countries. By 1948, there were approximately 1.35 million Arabs and 650,000  Jews living between the Jordan and the Mediterranean, more Arabs than had ever lived in Palestine before, and more Jews than had lived there since Roman times. Analysis of population by sub-districts shows that Arab population tended to increase the most between 1931 and 1948 in the same areas where there were large proportions of Jews. Therefore, Zionist immigration did not displace Arabs. For a detailed discussion that focuses on this myth, please refer to Zionism and its Impact._​


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## Eloy (Jul 1, 2017)

Coyote said:


> Eloy said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...



Moldovan Jews are European culturally and Jewish culturally - they always maintained their Jewish identity which is distinct.  Even secular Jews are still Jews.  It's not simply a religious identification.



Coyote said:


> Palestine has seen many movements of people and waves of conquest.  Given that - what are your feelings about Palestine being flooded by migrants from Egypt, Syria, and other Arab countries who "have no claim on the land" either?    The region saw immigration not only from European Jews but from Arab peoples who settled there.


All I know is that native-born indigenous Palestinians have been dispossessed of their land and displaced to the Occupied Territories and other Arab states to make room for an influx of Jews from the former Soviet Union and Poland.[/QUOTE]


The issue of people and place is a complex one and it's not as simple as one group displacing another.  While it is a lie that the land was "empty" when large scale Jewish immigration began - neither was it crowded.  There was a lot of empty land.  There were also Jews already there and a lot of historically Jewish places that were inhabited by non-Jewish Palestinians.    One side works hard to claim the Palestinians were all Arab invaders while the other side works hard to claim that the Jews were all European invaders.  So I what is the motive behind that?  To *deny the legitimacy of a people*?  Because that is what it certainly is attempting.

According to MidEast Web - Population of Palestine:


_*3. Zionist settlement between 1880 and 1948 did not displace or dispossess Palestinians.* Every indication is that there was net Arab immigration into Palestine in this period, and that the economic situation of Palestinian Arabs improved tremendously under the British Mandate relative to surrounding countries. By 1948, there were approximately 1.35 million Arabs and 650,000  Jews living between the Jordan and the Mediterranean, more Arabs than had ever lived in Palestine before, and more Jews than had lived there since Roman times. Analysis of population by sub-districts shows that Arab population tended to increase the most between 1931 and 1948 in the same areas where there were large proportions of Jews. Therefore, Zionist immigration did not displace Arabs. For a detailed discussion that focuses on this myth, please refer to Zionism and its Impact._​[/QUOTE]
No one is in any doubt that when the Israelis refer to their country as a Jewish state they mean Jews have exclusivity for self-determination there. They say so themselves. Palestinians there are second class.

Moldovan Jews are culturally east European. Their religious faith does not imply a Middle Eastern Semitic culture whatsoever.

Non-observant Jews are not Jews no more than baptized Belgians who do not observe the Catholic faith can be said to be Catholics. Such people are secular but no less Moldovan or Belgian.

We are witnessing a major influx of European Jews into formerly Palestinian land which began in the last century and such people are given more legitimacy than the people they are displacing. There was always a sense in which Israel was established on stolen land and the Israelis might have got away with this had they not embarked on an occupation of the rest of Palestine since 1967 and, as we speak, building even more settlements there. The occupation will destroy Israel from within.


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## flacaltenn (Jul 2, 2017)

Might sound silly and trollish at first -- but after reading several pages, I tossed up my hands and shouted (in a manner not becoming a former Jewish Sunday School teacher) ---- 

Christ !! What would Jesus do?   

Just fill him in on the 19th/20th Century persecution and plight of Jewish refugees from the Nazis and the Russian Czars. (Although he would probably already have the details ). And he would probably already know the central importance of the Holy Land to the religion and culture.

He MIGHT say that His Father never LIKED the idea of THE Temple in Jerusalem and that "his people" should transcend that attachment to the concept of a "Jewish Homeland". OR -- that because of all the carnage and the pain that God would deliver them to a "Jewish Homeland" as was promised in the past.

Makes as much sense as any of the OTHER religious arguments. *Which is barely NO sense at all*.. *Because it's not a RELIGIOUS argument*. The Orthodox in Israel HATE the concept of a Jewish State. We have Louie88 to remind us of that. It's not religious ENOUGH for them for starters.

But something most ALL Jews agree on is that they had the organization, leadership, and focus to found a nation as a sanctuary for their people after a century of heinous abuse abroad. They became MORE than indigenous. They WORKED for a nation-state. And were prepared to make it out of dunes and desert.

That's how nation states get formed. You want ONE to "return to"??  Get organized. Elect leadership. Get your "religious brethren" to FUND a state. Lord knows -- that entire NEIGHBORHOOD is up for "urban renewal" right now...  LOTS of opportunities to stake out some boundaries.

It's FIFTY YEARS of unsettled "occupation" and still to this DAY -- there's no responsible leadership to negotiate on the behalf of the people who "want to return"..  Can't take much longer.  Life goes on...  The refugee camps OTH --- SHOULD NEVER -- just go on...


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## P F Tinmore (Jul 2, 2017)

Coyote said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...


Well, there are Ottoman records, British records, UN records, etc. for the Palestinians. The only thing the Jews have is a shared religion with some people who lived there thousands of years ago.

Do Jews have the right to live in Palestine? Sure.

Do they have the right to invade en mass, kick out the existing population, and pig the place for themselves? No.


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## Shusha (Jul 2, 2017)

Do the Jewish people have the right to establish their national sovereign homeland there?  Of course they do.  As do the Arab Palestinians.  

Can we just get ON with it?


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## Shusha (Jul 2, 2017)

Eloy said:


> e]
> No one is in any doubt that when the Israelis refer to their country as a Jewish state they mean Jews have exclusivity for self-determination there.



Yes.  Exactly.  The Jewish State will be the state for Jewish self-determination.  The Arab State will be the state for Arab self-determination.  That is what self-determination means.  The self determines the state.  In this case the "self" is the cultural community.  You can't have self-determination when other controls you.  Self-determination, by definition, is exclusionary.  

The choices are no self-determination for either party.  Or self-determination for both parties.  But you can't at once demand self-determination for the Arabs while denying it to the Jews. So which is it?  Self-determination for both or none?


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## Shusha (Jul 2, 2017)

Eloy said:


> I would contradict that the Jewish people have their origin in modern Israel.



Don't be silly.  Where did the Jewish people originate, then?


----------



## Shusha (Jul 2, 2017)

Coyote said:


> Christianity is a religion spread by proselytizing - unlike Judaism.  Christians around the world have only religion in common.  Judaism can have converts, and there was marriage among other peoples during the diaspora (there would have to be in order to survive) but they've consistently traced their heritage to Judea regardless of where they've ended up.  Christianity has never done that.



Exactly.  With Christianity the religion (ideas) spread.  With the Jewish people, the people spread.


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## rylah (Jul 2, 2017)

I think this is relevant, Jews were never really understood in Europe, it's a different thought, view and way of life. The role of Jews and their expression through the ever-changing political language in Europe,was mistakenly understood as full assimilation. Jews are still misunderstood.


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## rylah (Jul 2, 2017)




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## Coyote (Jul 2, 2017)

P F Tinmore said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...


Do the Egyptians, Syrians etc have the right to "invade en mass"?  Because if you are going to accuse the Jews of that you can't ignore the other side.


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## Eloy (Jul 2, 2017)

flacaltenn said:


> ... Just fill him in on the 19th/20th Century persecution and plight of Jewish refugees from the Nazis and the Russian Czars. (Although he would probably already have the details ). And he would probably already know the central importance of the Holy Land to the religion and culture. ...


It is understandable that those who were left after the destruction of the European Jews in Nazi occupied land during the Second World War would feel insecure. This insecurity motivated some Jews, the Zionists, to quit Europe and establish a _new_ homeland where they could feel they belonged simply because they were Jews. This is not the same thing as the establishment of a nation state and the British who believed they owned Palestine in the last century because they had a defunct League of Nations Mandate, did not mean a homeland would be created at the expense of the indigenous Arab Palestinians.



flacaltenn said:


> But something most ALL Jews agree on is that they had the organization, leadership, and focus to found a nation as a sanctuary for their people after a century of heinous abuse abroad. They became MORE than indigenous. They WORKED for a nation-state. And were prepared to make it out of dunes and desert.
> That's how nation states get formed. ...


The flaw in your argument is that the founding of the nation state of Israel was done by dispossessing and displacing the indigenous Arabs. Palestine was not empty sand dunes and desert.


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## Eloy (Jul 2, 2017)

Shusha said:


> Eloy said:
> 
> 
> > I would contradict that the Jewish people have their origin in modern Israel.
> ...


I know a Jewish family who live in California where the children and grandchildren were born. This new generation originated in California. Before that their ancestors were Austrian not Middle Eastern.


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## P F Tinmore (Jul 2, 2017)

Coyote said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...


Did they kick out the existing population?


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## Hollie (Jul 2, 2017)

Eloy said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > ... Just fill him in on the 19th/20th Century persecution and plight of Jewish refugees from the Nazis and the Russian Czars. (Although he would probably already have the details ). And he would probably already know the central importance of the Holy Land to the religion and culture. ...
> ...



It's a bit of a stretch to suggest that migrants / land grabbers from Syria, Egypt and Lebanon, Turkish invaders and European Christian Crusaders were "indigenous Arabs". 

What's comical is how such slogans are passed around the really angry, Joooo hating cabal.


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## Shusha (Jul 2, 2017)

Eloy said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > Eloy said:
> ...



Sure.  But why do you stop there?  Before THAT they were from Israel, Judea and Samaria.  

I have no problem with the consistency of your argument if you want to claim nationality, or even origin, based on residency.  That is an internally consistent argument -- _as long as you apply it equally_ to all peoples.  

But if you go with this argument then you have effectively ended the argument about the Arab Palestinian "right of return".  Because those Palestinians who now live in places other than Palestine/Israel are no longer Palestinian.  They are nationals and originals to the territory in which they find themselves and are living.  They have no right to return to a place that they don't belong to.


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## Shusha (Jul 2, 2017)

P F Tinmore said:


> Did they kick out the existing population?



The existing population was uprooted due to the conflict.  The war in 1948, which created refugees on both sides, was a joint Arab effort to prevent Israeli (Jewish) sovereignty on any part of the territory.  

Had that conflict not occurred, there would be no Arab Palestinian diaspora.  So, it is disingenuous to lay responsibility for it entirely on Israel.  The Arab Palestinians, as well as Jordan, Syria, Egypt, Lebanon and Iraq all played a part in it.


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## Eloy (Jul 2, 2017)

Shusha said:


> Eloy said:
> 
> 
> > Shusha said:
> ...


Sephardim who had been living in South America until lately with citizenship of countries there are able have their right of return respected by the Spanish government since their forebears were expelled from their homeland in Andalucía.


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## Shusha (Jul 2, 2017)

Eloy said:


> Sephardim who had been living in South America until lately with citizenship of countries there are able have their right of return respected by the Spanish government since their forebears were expelled from their homeland in Andalucía.



Right.  So why wouldn't they also have the right to return to their original homeland in Israel, Judea and Samaria?


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## flacaltenn (Jul 2, 2017)

Eloy said:


> It is understandable that those who were left after the destruction of the European Jews in Nazi occupied land during the Second World War would feel insecure. This insecurity motivated some Jews, the Zionists, to quit Europe and establish a _new_ homeland where they could feel they belonged simply because they were Jews. This is not the same thing as the establishment of a nation state and the British who believed they owned Palestine in the last century because they had a defunct League of Nations Mandate, did not mean a homeland would be created at the expense of the indigenous Arab Palestinians.



And yet - it ended up recognizing a portion of Mandate to be under control of a predominantly Jewish state. The Palis HAD the entire West Bank under Jordanian Mandate for a couple decades.



Spoiler: And what did they DO with that opportunity? 



They attacked the Capitol of Jordan , got their asses kicked out, and later on the King RENOUNCED all claim to the West Bank --- because he REFUSED to deal with them ever again


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## flacaltenn (Jul 2, 2017)

Eloy said:


> The flaw in your argument is that the founding of the nation state of Israel was done by dispossessing and displacing the indigenous Arabs. Palestine was not empty sand dunes and desert.



The major urban areas of Israel were acquired by VALID land deeds. From absentee Arab landlords who gave up title to that land in exchange for cash..  Stanford University has MANY of those original deeds in their archives.  I posted them here numerous times. But the collection got moved back to the basement and the links are gone. 

Is BUYING real estate -- dispossessing and displacing? Plenty of remaining historical transactions about the land deals..


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## louie888 (Jul 2, 2017)

flacaltenn said:


> The major urban areas of Israel were acquired by VALID land deeds....


Cough, cough... bullshit.



flacaltenn said:


> ...I posted them here numerous times. But the collection got moved back to the basement and the links are gone.


LMAO, sure, because you say so.

BOTTOM LINE: YOUR ZIONIST DEATH CULT REFUSING THE INDIGENOUS PEOPLE THE RIGHT TO RETURN TO THE LAND AND THE HOMES THAT WERE STOLEN FROM THEM IS PATHETIC.


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## montelatici (Jul 2, 2017)

flacaltenn said:


> Eloy said:
> 
> 
> > The flaw in your argument is that the founding of the nation state of Israel was done by dispossessing and displacing the indigenous Arabs. Palestine was not empty sand dunes and desert.
> ...



Not even close.  The Muslims and Christians owned about 90% of the land before partition (1945). As depicted by the UN map below.


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## THAI EXPAT (Jul 2, 2017)

The new secret alliance between Israel, Egypt, UAE, Jordan and the future Kurdistan, means the Palestine question is MOOT! The PLO and Hezbollah can either work peacefully as Minority parties, and end violent resistance, or live under Police rule. The time for a two state solution has passed!
The only champions Palestinian Arabs have are western progressives, and they are going down quickly. The world knows it, but loony left dreams on.


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## Hollie (Jul 2, 2017)

montelatici said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > Eloy said:
> ...



I'm afraid you're reality challenged, sweetie. That's not what the map depicts.


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## P F Tinmore (Jul 2, 2017)

flacaltenn said:


> Eloy said:
> 
> 
> > The flaw in your argument is that the founding of the nation state of Israel was done by dispossessing and displacing the indigenous Arabs. Palestine was not empty sand dunes and desert.
> ...


Two things here.

The Jews were only able to buy about 6-7% of Palestinian land.
Purchasing land does not remove that land from the country. Private ownership does not change the country it is in. It was still Palestinian land.


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## Shusha (Jul 2, 2017)

When you say "Palestinian land" you mean the Jewish National Home.


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## Shusha (Jul 2, 2017)

Land ownership is entirely irrelevant to sovereignty.  The only reason it was brought up was because Eloy mentioned the "dispossession" of the Arab people.  The Arab people were not dispossessed by purchase of land by Jews.  They were dispossessed as a result of the conflict.


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## Hollie (Jul 2, 2017)

P F Tinmore said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > Eloy said:
> ...



Two things here:

1. The Jews bought large tracts of land from absentee owners in Egypt, Syria and Lebanon. You falsely label the land as "Pal'istanian land". It was the Ottomans who controlled the land.

2. What "country" was the land in? Land in your invented "country of Pally'land"? No, it was not.

3. You are a hoot. 

Well, that's like three things. I guess we can ignore your two things. That leaves us with:

1. You are a hoot.


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## Shusha (Jul 2, 2017)

We really need to be discussing solutions.

And if your only "solution" is likely to cause the destruction of Jewish self-determination and sovereignty -- you need another solution.


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## P F Tinmore (Jul 2, 2017)

Shusha said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Did they kick out the existing population?
> ...





Shusha said:


> Had that conflict not occurred, there would be no Arab Palestinian diaspora.


The Zionists preplanned that conflict. About 300,00 Palestinians became refugees before the start of the 1948 war.


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## P F Tinmore (Jul 2, 2017)

Hollie said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > flacaltenn said:
> ...


The Treaty of Lausanne ceded all of that land to Palestine.


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## Shusha (Jul 2, 2017)

P F Tinmore said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



Link?


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## P F Tinmore (Jul 2, 2017)

Shusha said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Shusha said:
> ...


Approximately 250,000-300,000 Palestinians had fled or been expelled prior to the Israeli Declaration of Independence in May 1948; a fact which was named as a _causus belli_ for the entry of the Arab League into the country, sparking the 1948 Arab-Israeli War.

1948 Palestinian exodus - Wikipedia


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## Shusha (Jul 2, 2017)

P F Tinmore said:


> The Treaty of Lausanne ceded all of that land to Palestine.



To the Jewish National Home


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## Shusha (Jul 2, 2017)

P F Tinmore said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



Right.  So it was the conflict and not the purchase of land by Jews.


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## P F Tinmore (Jul 2, 2017)

Shusha said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Shusha said:
> ...


Indeed, it was the Zionist military attack on Palestinian civilians.


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## Coyote (Jul 2, 2017)

And ve


Eloy said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > Eloy said:
> ...


And before they were Austrian?


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## Coyote (Jul 2, 2017)

P F Tinmore said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



Did anyone get kicked out as a result of immigration?


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## Coyote (Jul 2, 2017)

flacaltenn said:


> Eloy said:
> 
> 
> > The flaw in your argument is that the founding of the nation state of Israel was done by dispossessing and displacing the indigenous Arabs. Palestine was not empty sand dunes and desert.
> ...


There is a bit of controversy there in that Israel's absentee land owner laws made it much more difficult for Arab landowners to reclaim their property and allowed the state to confiscate it or buy it dirt cheap.


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## Coyote (Jul 2, 2017)

flacaltenn said:


> Eloy said:
> 
> 
> > The flaw in your argument is that the founding of the nation state of Israel was done by dispossessing and displacing the indigenous Arabs. Palestine was not empty sand dunes and desert.
> ...


There is a bit of controversy there in that Israel's absentee land owner laws made it much more difficult for Arab landowners to reclaim their property and allowed the state to confiscate it or buy it dirt cheap.


louie888 said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > The major urban areas of Israel were acquired by VALID land deeds....
> ...


Ok then...do the


louie888 said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > The major urban areas of Israel were acquired by VALID land deeds....
> ...


Do the Jewish people have the same right of return or does it only apply to non Jews?


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## P F Tinmore (Jul 3, 2017)

Coyote said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...


Not much initially...but...The Zionists and Britain colluded to colonize Palestine. Britain's military ran cover for the Zionists while they created "a state within a state" in Palestine. (Britain's words not mine.) When Britain planned to leave Palestine the Zionists rolled their military across Palestine attacking the civilians and driving them out of their homes. This plan was hindered by the Arab armies who entered Palestine in May of 1948. By this time about 300,000 Palestinian had already become refugees.

BTW, define immigrant.


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## P F Tinmore (Jul 3, 2017)

*Right of Return Conference Day 2: Joseph Massad Keynote Address *

**


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## ProudVeteran76 (Jul 3, 2017)

P F Tinmore said:


> *Right of Return Conference Day 2: Joseph Massad Keynote Address *
> 
> **




Yawn.... Not going to happen


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## Shusha (Jul 3, 2017)

P F Tinmore said:


> Not much initially...but...The Zionists and Britain colluded to colonize Palestine. Britain's military ran cover for the Zionists while they created "a state within a state" in Palestine. (Britain's words not mine.) When Britain planned to leave Palestine the Zionists rolled their military across Palestine attacking the civilians and driving them out of their homes. This plan was hindered by the Arab armies who entered Palestine in May of 1948. By this time about 300,000 Palestinian had already become refugees.
> .



Really?  You are trying to convince us that there was no conflict until May of 1948 and the Arabs were just sitting around peacefully drinking tea until the mean old evil Jooooos started randomly attacking them?  

Immigration of Jews (return) did not cause an Arab diaspora. Conflict caused it. The same conflict which is still on-going. Arabs refuse to consider Jewish sovereignty. The Jewish people refuse to consider the destruction of their nation.  (Again). 

At this point Arabs refuse to even consider having Jews live next to them. Hence the whole silly "settlements" argument. 

The intent of the Arab return is only another method to try to destroy Israel cloaked in fake humanitarianism. We can tell it's fake because no one wants to talk about actual humanitarian actions like getting the Arab Palestinians out of refugee camps and concrete and barbed wire prisons.


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## P F Tinmore (Jul 3, 2017)

Shusha said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Not much initially...but...The Zionists and Britain colluded to colonize Palestine. Britain's military ran cover for the Zionists while they created "a state within a state" in Palestine. (Britain's words not mine.) When Britain planned to leave Palestine the Zionists rolled their military across Palestine attacking the civilians and driving them out of their homes. This plan was hindered by the Arab armies who entered Palestine in May of 1948. By this time about 300,000 Palestinian had already become refugees.
> ...





Shusha said:


> Arabs refuse to consider Jewish sovereignty.


Arabs refuse to consider Jewish sovereignty inside Palestine.

You have to complete the sentence to understand the problem.


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## Eloy (Jul 3, 2017)

Shusha said:


> Eloy said:
> 
> 
> > Sephardim who had been living in South America until lately with citizenship of countries there are able have their right of return respected by the Spanish government since their forebears were expelled from their homeland in Andalucía.
> ...


The original homeland of the Sephardi is Spain. Spain is where they get their name from and their culture as well as identity and self determination is part of Jewish Spain.


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## Eloy (Jul 3, 2017)

flacaltenn said:


> Eloy said:
> 
> 
> > It is understandable that those who were left after the destruction of the European Jews in Nazi occupied land during the Second World War would feel insecure. This insecurity motivated some Jews, the Zionists, to quit Europe and establish a _new_ homeland where they could feel they belonged simply because they were Jews. This is not the same thing as the establishment of a nation state and the British who believed they owned Palestine in the last century because they had a defunct League of Nations Mandate, did not mean a homeland would be created at the expense of the indigenous Arab Palestinians.
> ...


The British have done a lot of harm in our world. They left behind a divided Ireland on sectarian grounds in 1922 which causes trouble to this day. They left behind a partitioned India on religious grounds in 1947 and Pakistan is now India's worst enemy. They divided tribes in Africa so that, e.g. the Babakusu are partly in N/W Kenya and E Uganda, also leaving behind in 1961 a system of apartheid in racist South Africa which has only recently been ended due to world opprobrium. Leaving behind a problem of mass immigration of European Jews into Palestine which became so unmanageable that they left there with their tail between their legs and opening the way for a Jewish state in 1948. They are currently holding on to islands of Argentina and even part of the Spanish mainland. They have a lot to answer for.


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## Eloy (Jul 3, 2017)

flacaltenn said:


> Eloy said:
> 
> 
> > The flaw in your argument is that the founding of the nation state of Israel was done by dispossessing and displacing the indigenous Arabs. Palestine was not empty sand dunes and desert.
> ...


It is bizarre bordering on the ridiculous to believe that absentee landlords have a right to sell the sovereignty of land to a foreign state. Absentee landlords or current land speculators cannot sell sovereignty which belongs to the inhabitants of a land.


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## Eloy (Jul 3, 2017)

THAI EXPAT said:


> The new secret alliance between Israel, Egypt, UAE, Jordan and the future Kurdistan, means the Palestine question is MOOT! The PLO and Hezbollah can either work peacefully as Minority parties, and end violent resistance, or live under Police rule. The time for a two state solution has passed!
> The only champions Palestinian Arabs have are western progressives, and they are going down quickly. The world knows it, but loony left dreams on.


Even the Israelis avoid attempting to offer a solution by calling names of those whom they seek to influence.


----------



## Eloy (Jul 3, 2017)

Coyote said:


> And ve
> 
> 
> Eloy said:
> ...


The Garden of Eden I suppose. Who knows?


----------



## Eloy (Jul 3, 2017)

Coyote said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > Eloy said:
> ...


Asking for land documents before Palestinian refugees can return to their land would be like Swiss banks requiring death certificates from Auschwitz-Birkenau before valuables can be withdrawn by Jewish next-of-kin. It is obscene.


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## Shusha (Jul 3, 2017)

P F Tinmore said:


> Arabs refuse to consider Jewish sovereignty inside Palestine.



But you do realize this makes it an unsolvable problem, yes? And it is the Arab ideology which makes it an unsolvable problem. And that the people who are suffering while the problem remains unsolved are the Arab Palestinians.


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## Shusha (Jul 3, 2017)

Eloy said:


> The original homeland of the Sephardi is Spain. Spain is where they get their name from and their culture as well as identity and self determination is part of Jewish Spain.



Are you seriously trying to tell me that you don't believe the Jewish people came originally from Israel and Judah?  (You do realize that last is where they got their name and their culture from, right?).  You are seriously trying to tell me you believe that the Jewish people originated in Spain?  

Unbelievable.


----------



## Eloy (Jul 3, 2017)

Shusha said:


> Eloy said:
> 
> 
> > The original homeland of the Sephardi is Spain. Spain is where they get their name from and their culture as well as identity and self determination is part of Jewish Spain.
> ...


Yes, the Sephardi originated in Spain, in Arab Al Andalus.


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## flacaltenn (Jul 3, 2017)

Eloy said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > Eloy said:
> ...



Yeah.. So??  They had an Empire. Who Didn't? Except for the US.. Empires also bring STABILITY to regions. For LONG periods of time. As the Brits accidentally ended up doing in the Mid East. Was NOT any stroke of genius tho....


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## Eloy (Jul 3, 2017)

Shusha said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Arabs refuse to consider Jewish sovereignty inside Palestine.
> ...


The Israelis cannot wash their hands of the responsibility the bear for the misery they daily visit upon the Palestinian people.


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## flacaltenn (Jul 3, 2017)

Eloy said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > flacaltenn said:
> ...



There's the same issue of an "indigenous" people never actually VALUING govt or formal infrastructure. You can't build a State without acknowledging property rights. And the Palis never were a "state"...


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## Eloy (Jul 3, 2017)

flacaltenn said:


> Eloy said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...


Your attitude is condescending. 
If, what the Zionists are doing to the Palestinian people in the Occupied Territories is an example of what good government means, then we must conclude that they learned well from their Nazi masters.


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## Shusha (Jul 3, 2017)

Eloy said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



Israel is confronted with an unsolvable problem and yet you demand that Israel be responsible for solving it?  That makes as much sense as the "Jews are from Spain" nonsense.


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## Shusha (Jul 3, 2017)

Honestly, its attitudes like the ones posted by Eloy and Tinmore which make me understand those here on the pro-Israel side who call for the expulsion of the remaining Arabs in the entire territory.  Now, don't go jumping all over me about that -- I'm not suggesting we should do it; I'm only suggesting I understand the underlying futility in trying to make peace with people who insist on destroying an existing nation with rights to sovereignty and self-determination as the only solution.


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## flacaltenn (Jul 3, 2017)

Eloy said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > Eloy said:
> ...



No I wasn't condescending. But your "rebuttal" is out in left denial field and IS condescending. 

What is the excuse for not having recorded property rights if Arab Palestine was "a thing"??? Is it because they transcended a tribal survivalist existence? Or because they relied heavily on violence and force to ensure those rights? Or because the "elders" held all that in their heads? 

Most all the deeds I've EVER SEEN that were part of Jewish settlements came from Arab landowners that were GRANTED under Ottoman empire power. NOT under any Palestine Authority...


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## Shusha (Jul 3, 2017)

flacaltenn said:


> Most all the deeds I've EVER SEEN that were part of Jewish settlements came from Arab landowners that were GRANTED under Ottoman empire power. NOT under any Palestine Authority...



Or granted by Jordan while under Jordanian occupation.


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## louie888 (Jul 3, 2017)

Shusha said:


> Honestly, its attitudes like the ones posted by Eloy and Tinmore which make me understand those here on the pro-Israel side who call for the expulsion of the remaining Arabs in the entire territory.  Now, don't go jumping all over me about that -- I'm not suggesting we should do it; I'm only suggesting I understand the underlying futility in trying to make peace with people who insist on destroying an existing nation with rights to sovereignty and self-determination as the only solution.


You do realize that only psychopaths refer to theft and murder as "rights to sovereignty and self-determination," right?


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## Shusha (Jul 3, 2017)

You do realize that denying sovereignty and self-determination to only the Jewish people is antisemitism, right?

I mean, you DO agree that rights to sovereignty and self-determination belong to ALL peoples and not just non-Jews, right?


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## louie888 (Jul 3, 2017)

Shusha said:


> You do realize that denying sovereignty and self-determination to only the Jewish people is antisemitism, right?
> 
> I mean, you DO agree that rights to sovereignty and self-determination belong to ALL peoples and not just non-Jews, right?


You did not answer my question, you deflected form it.


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## Shusha (Jul 3, 2017)

louie888 said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > You do realize that denying sovereignty and self-determination to only the Jewish people is antisemitism, right?
> ...



LOL.  Pot.  Kettle.  

I responded to your question by rejecting your premise that the Jewish people stole anything from anyone.  On the contrary, the Jewish people reasserted their right to return to the land which was usurped and stolen from them.  

Your turn.  Its not a difficult question.  Do rights belong to all peoples, or just some?


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## louie888 (Jul 3, 2017)

Shusha said:


> louie888 said:
> 
> 
> > Shusha said:
> ...


There is NO EVIDENCE THAT the Jewish people  WERE EVER EVICTED. WE HAVE A WHOLE THREAD DEDICATED TO THAT EXACT LIE.


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## Shusha (Jul 3, 2017)

louie888 said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > louie888 said:
> ...



Dodging the question.  In theory, though, say if there were evidence of the Jewish peoples existence on that land, you would agree that they have the same rights as all other peoples, wouldn't you?

Just a theoretical question, of course.


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## Coyote (Jul 3, 2017)

P F Tinmore said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...


Someone who moves from one country to another to settle permanently.


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## Coyote (Jul 3, 2017)

Eloy said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > flacaltenn said:
> ...


How can you verify claims then?


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## Coyote (Jul 3, 2017)

Eloy said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...


Yes they DO have some responsibility but attacking the very identity and heritage of the Jewish people themselves hardly seems to be the way to address that, in fact it sends a completely different message.


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## Coyote (Jul 3, 2017)

Eloy said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > Eloy said:
> ...



Another faux Nazi comparison.


----------



## flacaltenn (Jul 3, 2017)

Coyote said:


> Eloy said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...



Oh I think that could be done to some lesser extent. Much the way we all know in America where the Apache, Seminole, Sioux TRIBAL homelands are. You have cemeteries, religious sites, cross tribal boundaries that were fought over, etc. Maybe even Mosque records of births, deaths, etc. ALTHOUGH -- I'm not sure that Islam kept the kind of records that Jews and Christians meticulously kept.

AND -- I'm sure to some extent this has been established. Both in the Holy Land and on this board. But with over 2 dozen LARGE refugee camps holding people who have been "expatriated" for generations in some OTHER Arab country and now CLAIM their ancestry in Israel --- that's a hard case to make as Israel becomes increasingly developed.

The type of RE-patriation that needs to occur is to get land swaps with Lebanon, Jordan, Syria, Egypt and Israel in RETURN for closing those camps... And put together a region IN TRUST for an actual Pali govt that MIGHT SOME DAY exist.. And to throw in some "sweeteners" that make the "reservation" economically viable and attractive.


----------



## louie888 (Jul 3, 2017)

flacaltenn said:


> ...people who have been "expatriated" for generations in some OTHER Arab country and now CLAIM their ancestry in Israel...


ANY OTHER COUNTRY, actually.

Please explain this simple concept to shusha.


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## P F Tinmore (Jul 3, 2017)

flacaltenn said:


> Eloy said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...


All Israeli bullshit aside, Palestine has been a state since 1924. Palestine was born under occupation and has never been allowed to exercise their rights.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Jul 3, 2017)

Shusha said:


> Honestly, its attitudes like the ones posted by Eloy and Tinmore which make me understand those here on the pro-Israel side who call for the expulsion of the remaining Arabs in the entire territory.  Now, don't go jumping all over me about that -- I'm not suggesting we should do it; I'm only suggesting I understand the underlying futility in trying to make peace with people who insist on destroying an existing nation with rights to sovereignty and self-determination as the only solution.





Shusha said:


> I'm only suggesting I understand the underlying futility in trying to make peace with people who insist on destroying an existing nation


Like Israel literally wiping Palestine off the map.

It is understandable that he Palestinians resist that.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Jul 3, 2017)

Shusha said:


> louie888 said:
> 
> 
> > Shusha said:
> ...


Sure, every Jew who has evidence that he has ancestors from that land has rights.


----------



## Shusha (Jul 3, 2017)

P F Tinmore said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > louie888 said:
> ...



Which would be all of them.


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## P F Tinmore (Jul 3, 2017)

Shusha said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Shusha said:
> ...


Load of crap.

Do you have any proof of that?

Of course not.


----------



## Shusha (Jul 3, 2017)

P F Tinmore said:


> Like Israel literally wiping Palestine off the map.
> 
> It is understandable that he Palestinians resist that.



Oh, please.  You can't have it both ways.  

You can't be all aggrieved that Palestine is "wiped off the map" while demanding that Israel be wiped off the map.  

If its "understandable" that Palestinians resist that, its also understandable why the Jewish people resist having their nation destroyed.


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## louie888 (Jul 3, 2017)

Shusha said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Shusha said:
> ...


They obviously don't teach history at your temple.


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## Shusha (Jul 3, 2017)

P F Tinmore said:


> Do you have any proof of that?
> 
> Of course not.



You are not going to join Eloy's ridiculous claim that the Jewish people originated in Spain, are you?  

The theoretical question on the table is whether or not people have a right to return to lands they have been evicted from.


----------



## louie888 (Jul 3, 2017)

P F Tinmore said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...


She never has proof, just lies repeated ad nauseum.


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## Shusha (Jul 3, 2017)

louie888 said:


> They obviously don't teach history at your temple.



Yeah.  Apparently I missed the day they taught the Jewish people originated in Spain.


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## Indeependent (Jul 3, 2017)

P F Tinmore said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > louie888 said:
> ...


My wife and I;  Ancestry.com - the best way to deflate Islamic Revisionist Bullshit History.


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## louie888 (Jul 3, 2017)

Shusha said:


> louie888 said:
> 
> 
> > They obviously don't teach history at your temple.
> ...


Where did I ever claim that, toolbox?

They never taught that there is ZERO EVIDENCE OF THE FIRST TEMPLE, NOR THAT THE DIASPORA STORY IS JUST THAT, A STORY!


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## Indeependent (Jul 3, 2017)

louie888 said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > louie888 said:
> ...


Israel claims First Temple relic find


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## Shusha (Jul 3, 2017)

louie888 said:


> She never has proof, just lies repeated ad nauseum.



Proof that the Jewish people originated in Israel, Judea and Samaria?  Really?  Do you work for UNESCO?


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## Eloy (Jul 3, 2017)

Shusha said:


> Eloy said:
> 
> 
> > Shusha said:
> ...


The problem of the Zionist theft of Palestinian land and the half century of inhumane and illegal treatment of the Palestinian refugees by the Israeli occupation is not unsolvable.






When Sephardic Jews were dispossessed and displaced from Spain by the Catholic Monarchs more than 500 years ago, many kept their house keys as a reminder of their lost homeland. Now their descendants are getting Spanish citizenship.


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## Eloy (Jul 3, 2017)

flacaltenn said:


> Eloy said:
> 
> 
> > flacaltenn said:
> ...


Your demand of property deeds and papers from dispossessed Palestinians is risible.
I wonder, to prove that Jews actually were murdered by the Nazis whether you have seen any death certificates for Jews who were riddled by Einsatzgruppe in Ukraine.


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## Eloy (Jul 3, 2017)

Coyote said:


> Eloy said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...


As the Swiss bankers asked the next of kin of Jews gassed at Auschwitz-Birkenau.


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## Eloy (Jul 3, 2017)

Coyote said:


> Eloy said:
> 
> 
> > Shusha said:
> ...


Viennese Jews do not belong to a different people to their fellow Austrians.


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## Shusha (Jul 3, 2017)

Eloy said:


> The problem of the Zionist theft of Palestinian land and the half century of inhumane and illegal treatment of the Palestinian refugees by the Israeli occupation is not unsolvable.



As long as Israel is destroyed.  Not.  Going.  To.  Happen.


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## Eloy (Jul 3, 2017)

Coyote said:


> Eloy said:
> 
> 
> > flacaltenn said:
> ...


I mean every word I type and can demonstrate any historical comparisons I use.


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## Eloy (Jul 3, 2017)

Shusha said:


> Eloy said:
> 
> 
> > The problem of the Zionist theft of Palestinian land and the half century of inhumane and illegal treatment of the Palestinian refugees by the Israeli occupation is not unsolvable.
> ...


So you say.


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## Indeependent (Jul 3, 2017)

Eloy said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Eloy said:
> ...


So when are you booking your next vacation to Northern Syria?


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## Eloy (Jul 3, 2017)

louie888 said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...


From what we read, it is clear what is taught for what passes as history and that gets repeated by those who follow the Zionist line.


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## P F Tinmore (Jul 3, 2017)

Shusha said:


> louie888 said:
> 
> 
> > She never has proof, just lies repeated ad nauseum.
> ...


See,  there is your proof right there.


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## rylah (Jul 4, 2017)

P F Tinmore said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > louie888 said:
> ...




I guess  صحراء يهودا  has some clues


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## Hollie (Jul 4, 2017)

Eloy said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > Eloy said:
> ...


Burqa'd threats from the Internet gee-hadi.


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## Coyote (Jul 4, 2017)

Eloy said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Eloy said:
> ...


If you are attempting to claim zionists and nazis are similar, no they aren't.  A better comparison might be to manifest destiny.  There is no valid comparison to nazism.


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## Coyote (Jul 4, 2017)

Eloy said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > Eloy said:
> ...


Israel has been in existence for over three generations.  Why do you wish the destruction of those people?  They have proven their ability to grow a state maintain a peaceful coexistence with their fellow states and have far more rights, freedoms and equality then their neighbors.  The Palestinians have yet to do that.  That doesn't mean they can't or that their rights should be ignored but destroying a state and the lives of millions of people is not the way to do it.  Israel is not evil, it's a state and it is comprised of people.  It's not going to magically disappear for the convenience of its haters just like the Palestinians are not going to disappear for the convenience of their haters.

As has been said already, you can not undreamed eggs. What is YOUR path forward for a sustainable equitable peace?


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## Coyote (Jul 4, 2017)

P F Tinmore said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > louie888 said:
> ...



Do you disagree that their origins were in Palestine?


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## Coyote (Jul 4, 2017)

Eloy said:


> louie888 said:
> 
> 
> > Shusha said:
> ...


There is archaeological evidence tying them to that region.


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## Coyote (Jul 4, 2017)

Eloy said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > Eloy said:
> ...



The issue of the refugees and their current situation is a complicated issue but you ignore part of the equation, that of the acts by the Arab states who have likewise abused and used the refugees.


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## Coyote (Jul 4, 2017)

Eloy said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Eloy said:
> ...


I am asking you...


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## Coyote (Jul 4, 2017)

flacaltenn said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Eloy said:
> ...



My view is right of return only applie to those who had once actually lived in an area, not their descendants and the refugees need to be taken in by all involved states and given citizenship.  They've been held hostage for too long.


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## flacaltenn (Jul 4, 2017)

Coyote said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...



*Including in Israel..* The trick is to get all parties to provide a workable contiguous or semi-contiguous land areas. Roughly connected thru the Sinai Penin. and Jordan River Valley. 

I've suggested connecting all that land with a Super Highway for commerce. From Gaza to West Bank to Lebanon. ALL the neighbors would benefit. And the Palis would have all the prime areas and cities on that route. That's a concept as old this conflict. Being ON a trade route ups your economic potential and status.


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## Eloy (Jul 4, 2017)

Coyote said:


> If you are attempting to claim zionists and nazis are similar, no they aren't.  A better comparison might be to manifest destiny.  There is no valid comparison to nazism.


I beg to differ.



Coyote said:


> ... As has been said already, you can not undreamed eggs. What is YOUR path forward for a sustainable equitable peace?


I would like to undreamed eggs.


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## Eloy (Jul 4, 2017)

Coyote said:


> My view is right of return only applie to those who had once actually lived in an area, not their descendants and the refugees need to be taken in by all involved states and given citizenship.  They've been held hostage for too long.


The Sephardic Jews were taken in by Muslims and Latin Americans for centuries and that did not abrogate the right of return of their descendants to become Spanish citizens since 2015.


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## Eloy (Jul 4, 2017)

Coyote said:


> Eloy said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...


I am neither a Swiss banker nor an Israeli.
Everyone knows who are the Palestinian refugees and their descendants. They have a right of return.


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## Shusha (Jul 4, 2017)

Coyote said:


> My view is right of return only applie to those who had once actually lived in an area, not their descendants and the refugees need to be taken in by all involved states and given citizenship.  They've been held hostage for too long.



And the refugees themselves should have some agency over where they choose to make their homes.  Everyone has responsibility here -- Israel, "Palestine", Jordan, Lebanon, Egypt, Syria and Iraq.

All refugees who are no longer refugees -- in practical fact -- should be removed from consideration in terms of re-settlement.  As in, removed from the lists and no longer considered refugees.  This includes all of the Jewish refugees and their descendants, the Arab refugees and their descendants who have residency and citizenship in another nation, and all of those residing in Gaza and the "West Bank". 

The actual refugees who are still living and not re-settled should be given the choice to return to the place from which they fled or were removed and be granted Israeli citizenship; to be re-settled in Palestine and granted Palestinian citizenship, or to be re-settled and granted citizenship in any of the remaining five States which bear responsibility for the problem.  Their descendants should be re-settled in Palestine and granted Palestinian citizenship or re-settled and granted citizenship in the nation of their birth.  (Palestine above means the Palestinian territory which would come under Arab sovereignty in a two (or three) more states solution).

Then all those displaced, on both sides, should receive compensation for their losses.  The Arabs from Israel and the Jewish people from Palestine, Jordan, Lebanon, Egypt, Syria and Iraq.


Why should it be this way?  Because it solves the problem.  All the problems.  And it ends the suffering of Arabs stuck in true refugee camps. 

No, its not "fair".  Its not "right".  It is not fair to the million Jewish refugees who lost their homes and businesses and worldly goods.  It is not fair to the 3/4 million Arabs who lost the same.  But there is NO way to make it right or fair.  There is no way for generations of peoples to be made whole and restored to an imaginary world that they might have lived in if events had not happened the way they did.  The eggs are broken. 

What can be done is to give all of those still being negatively affected by this conflict a better life and a future.  And two (or three) nations a way to move forward past this conflict.


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## flacaltenn (Jul 4, 2017)

Eloy said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Eloy said:
> ...



You really think that the time you're wasting with snarky answers actually HELPS the people who have 10 or 30 years in the refugee camps? 

Figure out how to make BOTH sides happy. Figure out how to get people OUT of those camps. Or most of them. Sending them all to Israel is not gonna happen..


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## Shusha (Jul 4, 2017)

Eloy said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > My view is right of return only applie to those who had once actually lived in an area, not their descendants and the refugees need to be taken in by all involved states and given citizenship.  They've been held hostage for too long.
> ...



Exactly.  Neither has the right of the Jewish people to return to their ancestral and historical homeland been abrogated.  (Yes, I realize you think the Jewish people originated in Spain, but that's just silly.)


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## Eloy (Jul 4, 2017)

flacaltenn said:


> Eloy said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...


It is not for me to figure out how the Israelis can fix the problem they have created. They should have quit their land grabbing after the United Nations accepted Israel as a member state. The Occupation will destroy Israel.


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## Eloy (Jul 4, 2017)

Shusha said:


> ...
> All refugees who are no longer refugees -- in practical fact -- should be removed from consideration in terms of re-settlement.  As in, removed from the lists and no longer considered refugees. ...


To their credit, the Spanish refuse to deny the right of return of Sephardic refugees even after 500 years.


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## flacaltenn (Jul 4, 2017)

Eloy said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > Eloy said:
> ...



Can we talk? I mean REALLY TALK?  I agree Israel has dragged it's feet a bunch about the lands they ended up with after the 68 war..  I agree that camps full of refugees in OTHER countries is a bad thing. Although I DON'T know all their stories like you seem to do.  But I also know that the PALIS have made a series of SERIOUS mistakes over the last 60 years or so.. Some that indicate they are NOT LIKELY to be CAPABLE of forming a nation-state... 

Can you NAME ANY of these mistakes that THEY (the PALIS) have made??


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## Eloy (Jul 4, 2017)

Shusha said:


> Eloy said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...


Indeed, the historical homeland of the Sephardim is Spain.


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## Eloy (Jul 4, 2017)

flacaltenn said:


> Eloy said:
> 
> 
> > flacaltenn said:
> ...


Why do you refer to Palestinians as "PALIS"?


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## Coyote (Jul 4, 2017)

Eloy said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > My view is right of return only applie to those who had once actually lived in an area, not their descendants and the refugees need to be taken in by all involved states and given citizenship.  They've been held hostage for too long.
> ...



You keep pressing that argument as if it means something in the current situation.  It is not a right of return issue. They are not refugees. It was Spains apology for expelling them, not an acknowledgement of indigenous rights.


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## Eloy (Jul 4, 2017)

Coyote said:


> Eloy said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...


It is clear that the Spanish understand the status of refugees and the right of return of their descendants cannot be changed by the passage of time. The Israelis and some posters here have no such understanding.


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## P F Tinmore (Jul 4, 2017)

flacaltenn said:


> I agree Israel has dragged it's feet a bunch about the lands they ended up with after the 68 war..


Indeed, and it is illegal to acquire territory by war.


----------



## Coyote (Jul 4, 2017)

Eloy said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Eloy said:
> ...


Look up the definition of refugee, and explain how they are refugees because that doesn't seem to fit.

I assume then that you would agree that at least the rest of the Jews deserve to return to their homeland by your logic?


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## ProudVeteran76 (Jul 4, 2017)

Eloy said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > Eloy said:
> ...






P F Tinmore said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > I agree Israel has dragged it's feet a bunch about the lands they ended up with after the 68 war..
> ...




It's" illegal" for Israel to keep the land but not " illegal" for the Arab Nations to initiate War, destroy and occupy" Israel?  Not surprised at the mentality of the Palestinian


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## P F Tinmore (Jul 4, 2017)

ProudVeteran76 said:


> Eloy said:
> 
> 
> > flacaltenn said:
> ...


The Palestinians did not initiate the war.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Jul 4, 2017)

P F Tinmore said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > I agree Israel has dragged it's feet a bunch about the lands they ended up with after the 68 war..
> ...



How else are the losers gonna learn their lesson?
When is Germany going to get back the lands they lost in WWI and WW2?


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## Eloy (Jul 4, 2017)

Coyote said:


> Eloy said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...


Yes, Moldovan Jews can return to the former Soviet republic.


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## THAI EXPAT (Jul 4, 2017)

P F Tinmore said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > I agree Israel has dragged it's feet a bunch about the lands they ended up with after the 68 war..
> ...



Indeed, and it is illegal to acquire territory by war.
How silly. Just about every country, including the USA  acquired territory by war.
That's how the Arabs took over Jewish land in Palestine, after Roman diaspora.


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## Coyote (Jul 4, 2017)

Eloy said:


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Do Palestinian refugees who originated from Egypt have a right of return to Palestine?


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## Eloy (Jul 4, 2017)

Coyote said:


> Eloy said:
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All refugees have a right of return.


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## Coyote (Jul 4, 2017)

Eloy said:


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You didn't actually answer the question.


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## Eloy (Jul 4, 2017)

Coyote said:


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Forgive me but I am not an expert.


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## P F Tinmore (Jul 4, 2017)

THAI EXPAT said:


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That is true. However, back then it was not illegal. In the 20th century it was.


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## Toddsterpatriot (Jul 4, 2017)

P F Tinmore said:


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BS


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## flacaltenn (Jul 4, 2017)

Eloy said:


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That's not what I asked to talk about.  But it's typing time only. Likely the way a lot of people type Jews because it's shorter Israelis.. 

Can you identify a couple mistakes and shortcomings on the part of the Palestinians that have contributed GREATLY to their current plight?  Simple question..


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## flacaltenn (Jul 4, 2017)

P F Tinmore said:


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Sure -- like Putin did in Crimea -- you just DECLARE it...      Fact is --- Israel Settled with the Egyptians and the King of Jordan didn't WANT the Palestinians back to be HIS problem.. So most of that acquired land has been properly and legally disposed..


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## P F Tinmore (Jul 4, 2017)

flacaltenn said:


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Israel has peace with Jordan and Egypt because it holds none of their land. Not true for Palestine. That is why there is no peace.


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## flacaltenn (Jul 4, 2017)

And in the 20th century a TREATY establishing "cessation of hostilities" is a PRE-Requisite to returning or disposing of conquered land. You see a TREATY with Jordan or the Palestinians for the West Bank territorities??


P F Tinmore said:


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It holds no Egyptian land because they settled. It holds JORDAN'S West Bank, because the King was sick and tired of the Palestinians.. That WAS the Palestinian part of the Brit Mandate settlement and Jordan served as Administrator because the Palestinians never got there act together. 

How BIG was that Pali army that attacked Israel in 1968??  Got pictures of their troops??


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## Hollie (Jul 4, 2017)

P F Tinmore said:


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Actually, Egypt shares a common interest with Israel in terms of controlling  Pal'istanian terrorism.


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## Toddsterpatriot (Jul 4, 2017)

P F Tinmore said:


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*
Israel has peace with Jordan and Egypt because it holds none of their land. Not true for Palestine.*

Palestine never held any land.


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## flacaltenn (Jul 4, 2017)

Toddsterpatriot said:


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Dunno about that. PF Tinmore is searching for pics of the Palestinian Army that attacked Israel in 1968 across their West Bank/Jordan Valley.  We'd look pretty stupid if they had tanks and armored artillery.. Or an Air Force....


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## Eloy (Jul 4, 2017)

flacaltenn said:


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Not all Jews are Israelis and I never use the names interchangeably.
Don't you think listing mistakes and shortcomings of Palestinians would belong in another Topic?


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## THAI EXPAT (Jul 5, 2017)

Toddsterpatriot said:


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How eloquent your reply. Does it refer to your Psychotic Analysis? *B*lindly *S*tupid?


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## Toddsterpatriot (Jul 5, 2017)

THAI EXPAT said:


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PF is blindly stupid.
I see you also noticed his silly claim about territory and war.


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## montelatici (Jul 5, 2017)

flacaltenn said:


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It's like asking if the Native Americans made a couple of mistakes vis-a-vis the European colonists.  After all, after the Pope concluded the Treaty of Tordesillas, should not have the Native Americans have accepted that the Europeans had the right to colonize the Americas?


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## Eloy (Jul 5, 2017)

montelatici said:


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The Treaty of Tordesillas divided any newly discovered territory by Europeans between Spain and Portugal in the same way as the United Nations divided Palestine between Jews from anywhere and the indigenous Arabs. By the middle of the twentieth century an American president spoke with the authority of a 15th century Pope.


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## ForeverYoung436 (Jul 5, 2017)

Eloy said:


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Stop calling the Palestinian Arabs "indigenous".  They are Muslim invaders, not Canaanites.


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## P F Tinmore (Jul 5, 2017)

montelatici said:


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Indeed, the pope gave the Americas to Columbus. Like that fucker had the right to give it away.


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## Eloy (Jul 5, 2017)

ForeverYoung436 said:


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Canaanites???
I do not believe such people even existed since the late second millennium BC.


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## flacaltenn (Jul 5, 2017)

Eloy said:


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Nope.. Same topic.  Not if you think the Palestinian problem is 100% Israels fault. Seems you won't answer the simple question that I asked about Pali culpability in their own destiny. And their history in the WIDER region than just Israel proper.

That's COMPLETELY pertinent to establishing WHO are the important parties to "right of return"..

OR -- maybe you don't KNOW all of the opportunities that got squandered and mistakes that have been made concerning this matter in the ENTIRE neighborhood.  It's NOT just Israel's problem..


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## P F Tinmore (Jul 5, 2017)

flacaltenn said:


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flacaltenn said:


> Seems you won't answer the simple question that I asked about Pali culpability in their own destiny.


It seems they were much better off before the criminals came down from Europe to steal and destroy their stuff.


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## ForeverYoung436 (Jul 5, 2017)

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Immigrants, not criminals.


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## flacaltenn (Jul 5, 2017)

ForeverYoung436 said:


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P F Tinmore said:


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Were they "better off" when they had the MAJORITY OF LAND from the British Mandate? Or when Jordan was pouring support and money and REPRESENTATION into their TOTAL CONTROL of the West Bank???


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## flacaltenn (Jul 5, 2017)

In fact -- are they "better off" in the camps that are rapidly becoming prisons in neighboring Arab states? Or in the "occupied territories of Israel"???

Need some answers.. Three questions...


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## ForeverYoung436 (Jul 5, 2017)

ForeverYoung436 said:


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Jews have a religious, ancestral and historical connection to Israel, probably more than any other ppl and country on the face of the earth.  Furthermore, they need one place in the world as a refuge and a haven.  Therefore, the Jews who moved there were patriots and pioneers, not criminals.


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## montelatici (Jul 5, 2017)

flacaltenn said:


> In fact -- are they "better off" in the camps that are rapidly becoming prisons in neighboring Arab states? Or in the "occupied territories of Israel"???
> 
> Need some answers.. Three questions...




What do you think?


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## montelatici (Jul 5, 2017)

ForeverYoung436 said:


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They were land robbing colonists and criminals that evicted the native population.


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## ForeverYoung436 (Jul 5, 2017)

montelatici said:


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Except that the population wasn't native.  As for that poster, one man's freedom fighter is another man's terrorist.  And as a Christian, I don't know how you cannot support Israel.  You are a traitor to your faith.  Like I heard one preacher say once on TBN,  "The promise of Gd to give the Land of Israel to the Jewish People is mentioned more times in the Scriptures than His promise of salvation from sin.  That's how important that Promise is."


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## P F Tinmore (Jul 5, 2017)

ForeverYoung436 said:


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You cannot even define immigrant.


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## P F Tinmore (Jul 5, 2017)

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The British mandate had no land.


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## montelatici (Jul 5, 2017)

Of course the existing population was native to the land.  As a Christian I would be a traitor to my faith if I supported Jews over my fellow Christians.

Listening to cultist evangelicals, whose Christianity is at best questionable, is absurd.

I listen to listen to real Christians, especially the Palestinian Christians:

"We declare that the military occupation of Palestinian land constitutes a sin against God and humanity. Any theology that legitimizes the occupation and justifies crimes perpetrated against the Palestinian people lies far from Christian teachings."

Kairos Palestine


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## flacaltenn (Jul 5, 2017)

montelatici said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > In fact -- are they "better off" in the camps that are rapidly becoming prisons in neighboring Arab states? Or in the "occupied territories of Israel"???
> ...



So what it that I'm looking at? Are we playing "paste a pic" here?

OK -- sounds like fun... 






Your turn....   From THAT pic -- it looks like the Palestinians HAVE RETURNED...


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## P F Tinmore (Jul 5, 2017)

flacaltenn said:


> In fact -- are they "better off" in the camps that are rapidly becoming prisons in neighboring Arab states? Or in the "occupied territories of Israel"???
> 
> Need some answers.. Three questions...


Nice deflection.


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## P F Tinmore (Jul 5, 2017)

flacaltenn said:


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So you post a picture of a bantustan.


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## flacaltenn (Jul 5, 2017)

P F Tinmore said:


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Are you even following along here? Or are you automated. Pardon me -- that Picture shows that Palestinians HAVE RETURNED..

And WTF is bantustan? Is that a Jihadi code word for the Pali Times Square of Israel?


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## P F Tinmore (Jul 5, 2017)

flacaltenn said:


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Israeli policies are moving Palestinians into walled off bantustans.


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## flacaltenn (Jul 5, 2017)

I like this game. Thanks Monte.. Here's a couple more. 

Palestinians NOT RETURNED -- living in refugee camp in Lebanon. Where they are now building a wall around it..  (I provide captions)






Now Nablus in "occupied Israel"....


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## P F Tinmore (Jul 5, 2017)

flacaltenn said:


> I like this game. Thanks Monte.. Here's a couple more.
> 
> Palestinians NOT RETURNED -- living in refugee camp in Lebanon. Where they are now building a wall around it..  (I provide captions)
> 
> ...


Occupied Israel?

You are a hoot.


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## ForeverYoung436 (Jul 5, 2017)

P F Tinmore said:


> flacaltenn said:
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> > I like this game. Thanks Monte.. Here's a couple more.
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Nablus is the Arabic corruption of the Roman Neapolis, the name the Romans gave the famous Biblical city of Shechem after they drove the Jews out.  Now Nablus is occupied by the Arabs who have set fire to the Tomb of the Jewish patriarch Joseph multiple times, because they have no respect for the faiths of other ppl.  So yes, Nablus is occupied Israel.


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## montelatici (Jul 5, 2017)

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## Toddsterpatriot (Jul 5, 2017)

montelatici said:


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Gotta keep themselves safe from the Muzzie terrorists.


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## montelatici (Jul 5, 2017)

That's what the Boers used to say about the non-whites.


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## flacaltenn (Jul 5, 2017)

montelatici said:


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Always get the "bigger picture" Monte. You're deep in tunnel vision...

Bigger picture of Bethelehem... West Bank...


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## flacaltenn (Jul 5, 2017)

Now the question is -- (since nobody is answering the other ones) ---  WHY would the Palestinians want to jeopardize those completely functional living spaces? WHY do they not negotiate and organize to get an even BETTER deal? Because certainly, by FAR, the Palis are living in better conditions in Israel than in the neighboring Arab States.  At least the Palis since the 68 war..


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## ForeverYoung436 (Jul 5, 2017)

flacaltenn said:


> Now the question is -- (since nobody is answering the other ones) ---  WHY would the Palestinians want to jeopardize those completely functional living spaces? WHY do they not negotiate and organize to get an even BETTER deal? Because certainly, by FAR, the Palis are living in better conditions in Israel than in the neighboring Arab States.  At least the Palis since the 68 war..



Are you talking about Israeli Arabs?  I saw a Youtube where one Israeli Arab says they are living in Heaven there, because they can become whatever they want to be.  All of his Israeli Arab friends are in medical school.


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## flacaltenn (Jul 5, 2017)

ForeverYoung436 said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > Now the question is -- (since nobody is answering the other ones) ---  WHY would the Palestinians want to jeopardize those completely functional living spaces? WHY do they not negotiate and organize to get an even BETTER deal? Because certainly, by FAR, the Palis are living in better conditions in Israel than in the neighboring Arab States.  At least the Palis since the 68 war..
> ...



Well, if they are recognized residents by the Israeli govt -- they are more privileged than the general Palestinian population. And there lies the problem. Those well-off 2nd to 4th gen Arabs have chosen to be at peace with their govt. Even participate in it. Not the case for majority of Palestinians.


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## MJB12741 (Jul 5, 2017)

flacaltenn said:


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True. The Palestinians are most often their own worst enemy.  Just consider their chosen leadership since Yassar to leave them living in ignorance & poverty.


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## flacaltenn (Jul 5, 2017)

MJB12741 said:


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The high point of Palestinian govt was about the time Jews were purged from Gaza and there was framework for autonomy there. Very brief. Very sad....


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## P F Tinmore (Jul 5, 2017)

flacaltenn said:


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What the liars do not tell you is that part of the so called disengagement was a system of closure.


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## Hollie (Jul 5, 2017)

P F Tinmore said:


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What the apologists for Islamic terrorism won't acknowledge is that soon after the Israeli unilateral withdrawal from Gaza'istan, the expected Islamic  terrorist attacks began. 

For a brief moment, the Islamic terrorists had a choice to make: attempt to build a functioning society, or, follow the writ of their Death Cult Charter. 

We know how that went.


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## P F Tinmore (Jul 5, 2017)

Hollie said:


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Indeed, Israel's preplanned closure cut off imports, exports, and tourism causing their economy to collapse.


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## Toddsterpatriot (Jul 5, 2017)

P F Tinmore said:


> Hollie said:
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They still manage to buy supplies to build rockets.


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## ForeverYoung436 (Jul 5, 2017)

Toddsterpatriot said:


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I read that the tunnels cost millions of dollars.  What could have been done with those millions!


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## Hollie (Jul 5, 2017)

P F Tinmore said:


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Indeed, a reaction to Islamic terrorist attacks is to cut off the means by which Islamic terrorists acquire materials to wage terrorist attacks. 

Why is it that you feel Islamic terrorists have an entitlement to acts of war without consequence?

Anyway, cheer up, Bunkie. The suffering of the Pal'istanians is worth every dead body they can present so as to sustain your flaming Joooo hatreds.


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## P F Tinmore (Jul 5, 2017)

Hollie said:


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Are you on your terrorist propaganda kick again?


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## Shusha (Jul 5, 2017)

ForeverYoung436 said:


> I read that the tunnels cost millions of dollars.  What could have been done with those millions!



80,000 houses. Two luxury hotels. Six hospitals. Ten schools and both the sewage treatment plant and the water desalination plant.

But Joooooooooos. Shrug. Priorities.


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## P F Tinmore (Jul 5, 2017)

Shusha said:


> ForeverYoung436 said:
> 
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> > I read that the tunnels cost millions of dollars.  What could have been done with those millions!
> ...


More stuff for Israel to bomb.

Those tunnels were a very effective defense.


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## Hollie (Jul 5, 2017)

P F Tinmore said:


> Hollie said:
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It's predictable that lacking any reasoned response, you cut and paste your usual slogans. 

I just find it comically tragic that for all your Pom Pom flailing in support of your Islamic terrorist heroes, you and your heroes live a subsistence existence, begging at the good graces of the western world for your next welfare fraud check. Meanwhile, Israelis live together with effective legal and societal tools which have built a first world economy.

The result of islamic terrorism is that the Arabs-Moslems masquerading as "Pal'istanians" have less and achieve less now as opposed to a decade or two ago and that pattern will continue. Losers are, as losers do.


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## P F Tinmore (Jul 5, 2017)

Hollie said:


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Oh jeese, more bullshit Israeli talking points.

like everyone else in a cage, they depend on outside help.


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## Hollie (Jul 5, 2017)

P F Tinmore said:


> Shusha said:
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Millions of dollars of western welfare fraud money spent on your tunnel rat heroes burrowing into Egypt and Israel.

There was nothing defensive about Islamic terrorists building smuggling tunnels for the purpose of staging Islamic terrorist attacks.

Egypt dealt with your heroes by flooding the tunnels and drowning your Islamic terrorist heroes.

How does it feel to be an abject embarrassment to humankind which has long since learned to walk upright without dragging its knuckles?


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