# UN special session on anti-Semitism



## aris2chat (Jan 22, 2015)

overdue
*UN special session on anti-Semitism*
*sbs.com.au*/news/article/2015/01/23/un-special-session-anti-semitism
The UN General Assembly has been told that the world must confront a renewed advance of anti-Semitism in the wake of the Paris attacks.

AAP
23 Jan 2015

The UN General Assembly has opened a special session to denounce the global rise of anti-Semitism, two weeks after Islamist attacks in Paris that shocked the world.

French philosopher Bernard-Henri Levy told the 193-nation assembly that the world must confront "the renewed advance of this radical inhumanity, this total baseness that is anti-Semitism".

While the meeting was scheduled before the attacks on the satirical weekly Charlie Hebdo and a Paris kosher supermarket, it took on a fresh sense of urgency in the wake of the violence.

Four Jews were killed during the January 9 attack on a kosher deli that followed the slaying of 12 people in the assault on the Charlie Hebdo weekly in the worst violence in France in decades.

"In Paris, just a few days ago, we heard once again the infamous cry 'Death to the Jews' and cartoonists were killed because of cartooning, police for policing and Jews just for shopping and being Jews," Levy said.

"In other capitals in Europe and elsewhere, faulting the Jews is once again becoming the rallying cry of a new order of assassins, unless it is the same but cloaked in new habits."

Levy recalled that the United Nations was created in the wake of World War II and the murder of six million Jews in the Holocaust that led to calls to "Never Again" allow genocide.

"This assembly was given the sacred task of preventing those terrible spirits from re-awakening, but they have returned and that is why we are here," Levy said.

Thirty-seven countries including Israel, the United States, all 28 countries of the European Union, Canada and Australia requested the meeting in October.

UN Secretary General Ban Ki-moon recalled that UN efforts were being severely tested by rising extremism but said conflict in the Middle East should not serve as a pretext for violence.

"Grievances about Israeli actions must never be used as an excuse to attack Jews. In the same vein, criticisms of Israeli actions should not be summarily dismissed as anti-Semitism," Ban said.


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## Dogmaphobe (Jan 22, 2015)

The U.N.?

You might as well have a skulk of foxes conducting an investigation on bigotry towards  Gallus domesticus.


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## Tom Sweetnam (Jan 22, 2015)

A UN conference to address anti-Semitism...with what, about 165 member states abstaining?


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## Kondor3 (Jan 23, 2015)

The UN sponsoring a special session on anti-Semitism?

Rather like the 'Hunchback of Notre Dame' story...

With the Paris _Guild of Thieves and Beggars_ holding a workshop on the evils of pick-pocketing...


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## Challenger (Jan 23, 2015)

Good thing too, it's disgusting that innocent Jewish people are attacked just because some idiots can't differentiate between Zionist colonists and normal Jewish citizens in their own native countries.


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## Phoenall (Jan 23, 2015)

Challenger said:


> Good thing too, it's disgusting that innocent Jewish people are attacked just because some idiots can't differentiate between Zionist colonists and normal Jewish citizens in their own native countries.






 And here is a perfect example of ANTI SEMITISM as practised by ISLAMONAZI BRAINWASHED STOOGES


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## Challenger (Jan 23, 2015)

Phoenall said:


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You're calling me an Anti-semite because I think it's disgusting that innocent Jewish people are threatened and attacked in their native countries, because of the actions of Zionist colonists in Palestine?


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## Mindful (Jan 23, 2015)

Phoenall said:


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Classic case.


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## Phoenall (Jan 23, 2015)

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 No I am calling you an ANTI SEMITE because that is what you are. You hide behind the term Zionist as if it was something vile and evil because you are not brave enough to say what you really mean. You forget that the Jews were invited to settle in Palestine first by the Ottomans and then by the LoN, so they were not colonists. You also forget that the LoN under the Mandate for Palestine gave Palestine to the Jews for their National Home, it did not give it to the arab muslims.

 All these things point to you being a cowardly RACIST ISLAMINAZI ANTISEMITE


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## Challenger (Jan 23, 2015)

Mindful said:


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....says "Mindless"


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## Mindful (Jan 23, 2015)

Challenger said:


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What do you mean by Zionist?  A PC word for Jew?


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## Mindful (Jan 23, 2015)

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Ah ha.

You don't even realise the context of my moniker. Ignorant name calling fool.


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## Dogmaphobe (Jan 23, 2015)

Challenger said:


> You're calling me an Anti-semite because I think it's disgusting that innocent Jewish people are threatened and attacked in their native countries, because of the actions of Zionist colonists in Palestine?



 You are an antisemite based upon your undeniable track record on the subject.

   I realize much of your prattle is because you are benightedly unintelligent, but anybody who does not suffer from your affliction realizes that there has been a continuous Jewish presence in what is now Israel for over three thousand years -- long before a certain murderous warlord invented an aggressive political manifesto calling for his warriors to force all in their path to submit.


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## Challenger (Jan 23, 2015)

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Throughout, 1,300 years of history, Jewish people were never forbidden to settle anywhere they wanted to in the Muslim world; the so called "Jewish diaspora" could have all "returned" whenever they wanted to in that time frame. The point is, other than the odd pilgrim or two, they never wanted to; they preferred living where they were born. Even after the Nazi holocaust, most Jewish survivors wanted to go to America rather than Palestine but America wouldn't let them in.  Zionism *IS* vile and evil; it's often compared to Nazism and Fascism and I can understand why. The true racist, "nazi" anti-Semites are *Zionists*; both Christian and Jewish. 

As I've said on countless occasions, I'm a Humanist; I don't care what religion people follow, and unless they throw their religion in my face, I take each person as I find them.


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## Challenger (Jan 23, 2015)

Mindful said:


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...says the ignorant name calling fool.


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## Challenger (Jan 23, 2015)

Dogmaphobe said:


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Prove it.


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## Dogmaphobe (Jan 23, 2015)

Challenger said:


> Prove it.




 You provide more than enough proof that you are an idiot as it is. 

  ....But how is your colonization of Britain going, though, eh? What with the sharia courts and the no-go zones, it looks to be going swimmingly for you.


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## aris2chat (Jan 23, 2015)

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Your history is incomplete.  Jews were highly taxes for their faith and there have been waved of pogroms and massacres of jews across the islamic world.  Blood libels have been a fact of life for jews in MENA.  There have been periods of coexistence but it depended on the local rulers and clerics.  When a scape goat was needed the jews were the first to suffer.

Farhud - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia


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## Phoenall (Jan 23, 2015)

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Just ISLAMONAZI PSYCHOBABBLE taught in the mosques and madrassas the world over. The truth is that the muslims when they controlled Palestine designated certain area for the Jews, usually around dung heaps and rubbish tips. They were forbidden to even own a knife to cut up their food with, decent clothes, anything better than a donkey and could not repair their homes. It was only after the 1850's that the Ottomans allowed the Jews to settle in Palestine, before that they were not allowed anywhere near their sacred religious sites.

Now once again I ask you to define what you mean by Zionist and Zionism and to tell where you get your fanciful ideas from.


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## Phoenall (Jan 23, 2015)

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 The way you use the terms Zionist and Zionism for starters, reminds me of the last ploy when the use of Israeli was a cover for the racists when talking about Jews.      You are as transparent as good quality plate glass.


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## Challenger (Jan 23, 2015)

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"Just ISLAMONAZI PSYCHOBABBLE taught in the mosques and madrassas the world over." Link or cite your source for this, please.


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## Challenger (Jan 23, 2015)

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So I distiguish between Jewish people and Zionists, who are both Christian and Jewish, and I personally detest the irridentist, racist, ideology called Zionism. How does that make me an anti-Semite?


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## Kondor3 (Jan 23, 2015)

Dogmaphobe said:


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Agreed.

Part of a small but ubiquitous club of Muslim-Arab fifth-columnists around here, modern-day Tokyo Roses and Lord Haw-Haws.

This one is merely a bit more subtle and collegial about it than most others.

But the club-membership is still there, and evident to anyone with even a modicum of observational skills and deductive reasoning.


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## Phoenall (Jan 23, 2015)

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 I cite History and the Koran that show the Jews have been abused by the muslims since Mohamed wiped out the tribe at medina


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## Phoenall (Jan 23, 2015)

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How about you define in your own words what you believe to be meant by the term Zionism, a simple enough question that never elicits a response from you and the rest of team Palestine. Only now that your back is to the wall do you alter your terms of engagement and bring non Jews into the equation. In the past you have only ever meant Jews and Israel when using the term Zionist and Zionism in a racist manner. If you were ever arrested on racism charges the court would have no problems in convicting you on your RACIST way of spewing out Zionist at the Jews.


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## Challenger (Jan 24, 2015)

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Drivel. My back is nowhere near a wall and I have defined Zionism in my own words, you quoted it. Nor have I altered any "terms of engagement" and I've been consistant throughout, deliberately differentiation Zionism and Zionists from the normal Jewish natives of whatever country they live in.


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## Challenger (Jan 24, 2015)

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You've cited nothing, just bloviating your fantasies as normal. I'll take that answer as a, "No I cannot support my assertion that, ISLAMONAZI PSYCHOBABBLE is taught in the mosques and madrassas the world over." Thank you. Next.


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## Mindful (Jan 24, 2015)

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Yeah, you sound like you're from the UK.


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## Dogmaphobe (Jan 24, 2015)

Mindful said:


> Yeah, you sound like you're from the UK.



Those on the dole there do tend to sound alike, don't they?


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## Challenger (Jan 24, 2015)

Kondor3 said:


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The only thing that's "evident to anyone with even a modicum of observational skills and deductive reasoning" is that this forum is full of either Islamophobic racist posters or paid Hasbarats. 

Interesting analysis of aspects of the Hasbara Handbook which is relevant to this last series of posts:
"The Hasbara Handbook explains many standard techniques of propaganda and deceptive rhetoric. It rehearses specific arguments and counter-arguments and outlines a program of training for advocacy and rebuttal. *It also stresses the importance of labeling or “name-calling” – the linking of a person or idea to a negative symbol.* _Ambassador Chas W. Freeman, Jr. (USFS, Ret.) December 1, 2012 _

http://www.sott.net/signs/hasbara.pdf


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## Challenger (Jan 24, 2015)

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Thank you. It should be self evident, but thanks for acknowledging the fact.


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## Mindful (Jan 24, 2015)

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I think our paths may have crossed elsewhere, because he gave himself away once.


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## Challenger (Jan 24, 2015)

Dogmaphobe said:


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see post #30


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## Mindful (Jan 24, 2015)

Challenger said:


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What if he doesn't want to see it?


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## Dogmaphobe (Jan 24, 2015)

Challenger said:


> see post #30




Your conspiracy crap was stupid enough the first time, boy.

I really don't need to punish myself by reading it again.


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## Kondor3 (Jan 24, 2015)

Challenger said:


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Predictable (and ineffective) counterpointing here.



> ...Interesting analysis of aspects of the Hasbara Handbook which is relevant to this last series of posts: "The Hasbara Handbook explains many standard techniques of propaganda and deceptive rhetoric. It rehearses specific arguments and counter-arguments and outlines a program of training for advocacy and rebuttal. *It also stresses the importance of labeling or “name-calling” – the linking of a person or idea to a negative symbol.* _Ambassador Chas W. Freeman, Jr. (USFS, Ret.) December 1, 2012_
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> http://www.sott.net/signs/hasbara.pdf


If the foo shits, wear it.


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## Phoenall (Jan 24, 2015)

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 No you haven't you have refused to answer that question every time you are asked it..................


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## Phoenall (Jan 24, 2015)

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That is your opinion and with £2 will get you a pint of proper Beer, that is if you are allowed to drink Beer


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## Phoenall (Jan 24, 2015)

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 YEP ISLAMONAZI PSYCHOBABBLE as taught in British mosques on a Friday afternoon.   You can tell when they have been brainwashed as they all come out with the same trending thoughts


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## Mindful (Jan 25, 2015)

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Not too bright are you? Giving yourself away like that.


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## Mindful (Jan 25, 2015)

*Judge: ‘Let’s Burn the Jew’ not Racism, Even if you Burn a Jew*
Grabbing a Jewish girl, flicking a lighter next to her hair and saying "let's burn the Jew" is apparently not a racially motivated act in Winnipeg.






The Jewish Press Judge 8216 Let 8217 s Burn the Jew 8217 not Racism Even if you Burn a Jew


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## Phoenall (Jan 25, 2015)

Mindful said:


> *Judge: ‘Let’s Burn the Jew’ not Racism, Even if you Burn a Jew*
> Grabbing a Jewish girl, flicking a lighter next to her hair and saying "let's burn the Jew" is apparently not a racially motivated act in Winnipeg.
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 That judge should be struck off and told to find a job clearing up after dogs he is that out of touch with reality. Of course it is racist the term Jew was used in a derogatory context. This is what certain members of team Palestine don't understand when they use the term Zionist out of context and to mean something else other than its rightful definition


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## Mindful (Jan 25, 2015)

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Just watched an interesting studio discussion on Holocaust Remembrance: BBC The Big Question.


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## aris2chat (Jan 25, 2015)

Mindful said:


> *Judge: ‘Let’s Burn the Jew’ not Racism, Even if you Burn a Jew*
> Grabbing a Jewish girl, flicking a lighter next to her hair and saying "let's burn the Jew" is apparently not a racially motivated act in Winnipeg.
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Judge needs an education on racism


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## Humanity (Jan 25, 2015)

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Oh? Let's try again then Phoney...

Israel is a Zionist state?

Yes or No?

Maybe I can get an answer on this thread rather than ANOTHER deflection!


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## RoccoR (Jan 25, 2015)

Humanity.  et al,

Wow, --- that is interesting.

_(What is the definition of a "Zionist State?")_



Humanity said:


> Oh? Let's try again then Phoney...
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*(COMMENT)*

The State of Israel _(name of sovereignty)_ is a parliamentary democracy _(type of government)_, formed under the recommendation of the UN General Assembly [Resolution 181(II)], as a Jewish State _(culture of nation)_.   

The idea of a "Zionist State" is really an uneducated view of the application of "zionism;" which has evolved over time _(the gradual development of the culture, from a simple to a more complex form)_ to be the 21st Century equivalent of a movement to develop and protect the established Jewish Nation Home.



Humanity said:


> Israel is a Zionist state?
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*(ANSWER)*

NO!  There is no such thing as a "zionist state."

Most Respectfully,
R


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## aris2chat (Jan 25, 2015)

RoccoR said:


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Zion is Jerusalem.  The fact that the palestinians also want jerusalem as their capital makes them zionists as well.
Jerusalem is the whole place for all three religions, not muslim palestinians.  Palestinians use the mount as a battle against the jews.  Israel has allowed the waqf retain authority over the building on the mount.  It is supposed to be a holy place not blood stained, not a place where muslims should harm jews or incite hate.
In muslim hands the kotel would be denied to jews.  In muslim hands the jews would be exterminated and Israel would cease to exist.  The land would be filled with jewish blood and the borders marked with jewish bones.
Muslim hate has caused not just the migration of jews but of christians around the world to places where they can seek more safety.  Even in the west both are subject to the twisted interpretation of the quran and sharia by hateful muslim radicals.
Paris made muslim sit up and speak out against radicals but it is twenty or thirty years over due.  The dialogue might have begun but action against the radical elements within islam has been slow.  There is still a reluctance to examine Islam and criticizes it's interpretations, or to speak against other muslims.


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## Humanity (Jan 25, 2015)

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Why did I only click informative?

Simply because you make some assumptions based upon current extremist views...

The moderate Muslims have been slow to react to the extremists, but they are now starting to speak out...

For me, one of the main problems, other than fear from extreme Muslims, is the bigots who blindly tar ALL Muslims with the same brush without consideration or thought!

And there are plenty on this forum!


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## Phoenall (Jan 25, 2015)

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 Told you define Zionism as you use the word and I will give you a yes or no answer. While you refuse I will point out that you are RACIST and SNTI SEMITIC in the context you use the term.


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## Phoenall (Jan 25, 2015)

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 They are only moderate when they feel threatened by public opinion, public outrage or anti muslim extremists. The rest of the time they are typical arrogant aggressive muslims. Take the mosque in Luton that was the den of extremists like the Choudary group, and was known to the authorities as being extremist. When the British public threatened to protest outside the mosque the elders saw it as a threat and kicked choudray and his crew out. The mosque is still a hotbed of extremism but in your eyes the moderate muslims won the day.


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## Challenger (Jan 26, 2015)

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Typical Phoney BS.  The Central Luton mosque was "linked" to Al-Muhajiroon because many of it's members prayed there; it's like saying the Cathederal of the Holy Cross in Boston, Mass. is a hotbed of IRA extremists because some American IRA sympathisers and donors might have gone to mass there. The "British public" he refers to was in fact the English Defence League, a violent, far-Right white supremacist group, linked to the BNP and UKIP and various european fascist groups.


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## Challenger (Jan 26, 2015)

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Saw that programme, very interesting it was too. However I have a question linked to the above; in that programme a Jewish Rabbi (the lady dressed in blue, I forget her name), categorically stated "Jews are not a race, we are a religious group."  None of the other Jewish people there disagreed with her. The question is therefore, how can the Judge be racist if "Jews" are not a "race"? 

As for the judge, the article went on to state, "he should be praised for also stating that the school culture in which this kind of incident was commonplace was was “unhealthy and dark and there’s no place for it in society.”


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## Mindful (Jan 26, 2015)

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Why are you telling me this?


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## Phoenall (Jan 26, 2015)

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And the mosque was known as a hot bed of extremism before that, which is why the ultra extremist fat andy choudary went there.   The EDL have no links to the BNP or UKIP as they were a group set up by people in Luton because they were sick of the muslim attacks on the indigenous. The BNP members were told to stay away from the EDL, and the UKIP asked their members to disassociate themselves from them as well.

 Get your facts right and stop posting ISLAMONAZI PROPAGANDA


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## Humanity (Jan 26, 2015)

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You comment about EDL and BNP as if one is better than the other Phoney...

There IS a link between the two...

They are vile scumbag racists!


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## Phoenall (Jan 26, 2015)

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 Are they really then the majority of people in the UK must also be vile scumbag racists, because they think the same way the BNP, EDL and UKIP think. You forget that the P.C. brigade have been removed from power and they can no longer threaten people with arrest on racism charges when they tell the truth. As your god Brown found out when the courts found the BNP and Griffin not guilty of racism, so he threatened to change the law so they would be charged and found guilty. Just as well we kicked him out before he did so.   It is not racist to say that muslim terrorists are the biggest threat to the UK is it. Nor is it racist to say that islam poses a threat to the safety of all people, and it preaches intolerance, racism, violence and Jew hatred.


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## Humanity (Jan 26, 2015)

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You are doing well today Phoney...

Nope, it's not racist...

Just not correct.


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## Penelope (Jan 26, 2015)

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aris2chat said:


> overdue
> *UN special session on anti-Semitism*
> *sbs.com.au*/news/article/2015/01/23/un-special-session-anti-semitism
> The UN General Assembly has been told that the world must confront a renewed advance of anti-Semitism in the wake of the Paris attacks.
> ...



Man I get so sick of Jews making everything about them, and  it was Frenchmen who got killed in France and their holocaust is a fabrication although many jews died in WWII, as well as many innocent Germans, Frenchmen, Americans, Japanese, Russians, Homosexuals, Christians, and Muslims.


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## Humanity (Jan 26, 2015)

Penelope said:


> holocaust if a fabrication



if?


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## Penelope (Jan 26, 2015)

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IS, thank you. I'll change that.


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## Phoenall (Jan 26, 2015)

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 Sorry to say but officially it is correct as the details come from the UK government, and they have said  that muslim terrorists are the biggest threat to the UK. And a channel 4 documentary showed mosques preaching intolerance, racism, violence and Jew hatred. Even after the mosques elders vowed to stamp it out.


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## 50_RiaL (Jan 26, 2015)

The U.N. had 20 resolutions on Israel last year . . . just 3 for the rest of the world. . . .

"We don't need any more monuments commemorating Jews who were murdered in Europe, we need a [...] commitment to the living Jews." 
-- Israeli UN Ambassador Ron Prosor


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## Phoenall (Jan 27, 2015)

50_RiaL said:


> The U.N. had 20 resolutions on Israel last year . . . just 3 for the rest of the world. . . .
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> "We don't need any more monuments commemorating Jews who were murdered in Europe, we need a [...] commitment to the living Jews."
> -- Israeli UN Ambassador Ron Prosor





And when you consider the human rights breaches in the likes of Syria and Iran this shows the UN to be systematically ANTI SEMITIC.


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## Humanity (Jan 29, 2015)

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Oh well then, must be right if it came from the British government....


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## Coyote (Jan 29, 2015)

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It's amazing how something so well documented is a fabrication.  Kudus to the millions of people who all managed to coordinate their stories, observations and experiences to keep this conspiracy not to mention the cleverly faked photographs- what an amazing conspiracy.


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## Coyote (Jan 29, 2015)

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2/3 of Europe's Jewish population was wiped out.


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## Humanity (Jan 29, 2015)

Penelope said:


> holocaust is a fabrication



Sorry Penelope... You are nuts if you truly believe that!


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## Penelope (Jan 29, 2015)

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Right 6 mil, 6 million were dying since right after WWI according to all the times articles . WWII had they say 65 mil to 85mil deaths, so to the war all about the Jews, when most died due to starvation and disease, is the same way everything is about the Jews and some of us do not buy into the lies.


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## Penelope (Jan 29, 2015)

Humanity said:


> Penelope said:
> 
> 
> > holocaust is a fabrication
> ...



Lets say the story is very exaggerated.

I'd like to add the yearly Purim is coming up, the celebration due to Ester, another tale of woe and victory , just like the exodus. Purim has no historical accuracy as the exodus doesn't as well.


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## Challenger (Jan 29, 2015)

Penelope said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Penelope said:
> ...



Whoah. I've read about the magic "6 million Jews" figure being bandied about since the Russian pogroms of the 19th century and it's true that most of the pre-Holocaust population figures come from Jewish sources. Furthermore I agree that in absolute terms of all deaths in WW2 worldwide, Jewish deaths pale into insignificance.

However the Holocaust is not about numbers, it's about a cold-blooded, concerted and systematic attempt to eradicate an entire culture, just because they were "different". That's a historical fact.


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## Penelope (Jan 29, 2015)

That is why Jews fought for Hitler, ok.  Also Hitler did not create anti-Semitism , Great Britain bought up the Jewish question in 1750.


Challenger said:


> Phoenall said:
> 
> 
> > Challenger said:
> ...



It doesn't take much to be called an anti-Semite. Welcome to the club.


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## Lipush (Jan 29, 2015)

Coyote said:


> Penelope said:
> 
> 
> > Humanity said:
> ...



If it's Jewish or in bahalf of the Jews, it's 100% fake.

If it's Muslim, Arab, Palestinians, it's 100% authentic. 

Don't you know this girl by now?


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## Lipush (Jan 29, 2015)

Penelope said:


> Humanity said:
> 
> 
> > Penelope said:
> ...



Purim is a holiday for the children. What's your issue.


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## Challenger (Jan 29, 2015)

Penelope said:


> That is why Jews fought for Hitler, ok.  Also Hitler did not create anti-Semitism , Great Britain bought up the Jewish question in 1750.
> 
> 
> Challenger said:
> ...



Thanks, given who is doing all the name calling, I'll wear it as a badge of honour.


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## Penelope (Jan 29, 2015)

Challenger said:


> Penelope said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...



What is historical is how anti Semitism stated long before WWII, and even WWI, and its absurd to blame It on Germany and Hitler as many Jews fought in the German army. Maybe perhaps if Judea hadn't declared  War on Germany first,  but while many Polish Jews perished, WWII was not mainly about Jews.


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## Lipush (Jan 29, 2015)

Penelope said:


> Coyote said:
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Just like the attack on the HyporKosher. You come to kill the Jews, then you complain that "they make it about the Jews"??

What the actual fuck?!

You don't want Jews to "make it all about them," then leave us in peace. Duh.


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## Coyote (Jan 29, 2015)

Penelope said:


> Coyote said:
> 
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Because the Germans were obsessive record keepers, this is one of the most well documented human tragedies.  Even if you accept that most died due to starvation or disease, they were still deliberately killed.  You can't get around that.  Nor can you get around the well documented gas ovens and "mobile death chambers".


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## Penelope (Jan 29, 2015)

Lipush said:


> Penelope said:
> 
> 
> > Humanity said:
> ...





Lipush said:


> Penelope said:
> 
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> > Coyote said:
> ...



That market had lots of people who visited, Christians, Muslim as well as Jew, funny 4 Jews got killed there (that is a shame how people just out shopping get killed, really bad,  but did he pick out jews, how many jews did not get hurt in the market?, was it a coincidence), how many non Jews got killed that day, but heck they don't count.


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## Coyote (Jan 29, 2015)

Challenger said:


> Penelope said:
> 
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Exactly.  And one of the things people miss when they focus on just numbers, is that those numbers, for the Jews, represent the decimation of over 2/3 the entire Jewish population of Europe.  That's why quibbling over numbers alone is only part of the story.


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## Coyote (Jan 29, 2015)

Lipush said:


> Coyote said:
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Oh yes.


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## Penelope (Jan 29, 2015)

50_RiaL said:


> The U.N. had 20 resolutions on Israel last year . . . just 3 for the rest of the world. . . .
> 
> "We don't need any more monuments commemorating Jews who were murdered in Europe, we need a [...] commitment to the living Jews."
> -- Israeli UN Ambassador Ron Prosor


 What kind of commitment?


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## Coyote (Jan 29, 2015)

Penelope said:


> Challenger said:
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Anti-semitism has a long history.  What is not absurb is to blame the slaughter of innocent people, including a HUGE number of Jews, by Hitler, soley because of their ethnicity.

What war did Judea declare on Germany?  That's news to me.


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## Challenger (Jan 29, 2015)

Coyote said:


> Penelope said:
> 
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> > Challenger said:
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No it's true, here's a link to a basic wiki article, but there's plenty more out there on the subject.

Jewish boycott of German goods - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

Basically it was a jewish BDS attempt against the Nazi regime, ironic, don't you think?


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## Penelope (Jan 29, 2015)

Coyote said:


> Penelope said:
> 
> 
> > Challenger said:
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Lipush said:


> Coyote said:
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> > Penelope said:
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Well like I said no everyone believe the far fetched made up stories.  How many innocent Germans died, do you even care?


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## Humanity (Jan 29, 2015)

Penelope said:


> Humanity said:
> 
> 
> > Penelope said:
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"very exaggerated"

In what way?


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## Humanity (Jan 29, 2015)

Penelope said:


> far fetched made up stories



Want to tell everyone about these?

I would be interested to hear them even if no one else is!


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## Humanity (Jan 29, 2015)

Challenger said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Penelope said:
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Sorry, a boycott of goods is not a declaration of war...

That is stretching things a little too far!


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## Penelope (Jan 29, 2015)

Humanity said:


> Challenger said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...





Humanity said:


> Challenger said:
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> > Coyote said:
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It sure was.


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## Humanity (Jan 29, 2015)

Penelope said:


> Humanity said:
> 
> 
> > Challenger said:
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It was a declaration of war?

How so?


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## Penelope (Jan 29, 2015)

Humanity said:


> Penelope said:
> 
> 
> > Humanity said:
> ...


Judea declares war on Germany - Google Search

Whoever controls the money, is in control.


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## Humanity (Jan 29, 2015)

Penelope said:


> Humanity said:
> 
> 
> > Penelope said:
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So you believe that the Holocaust never happened and that the boycotting of goods is a declaration of war?


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## aris2chat (Jan 29, 2015)

Challenger said:


> Coyote said:
> 
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> > Penelope said:
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A small portion of the german/european population chooses not to buy local products.  Hardly going to bankrupt the german economy.
A bit like the US muslim population boycotting cow cheese made in the US.  For most muslims cheese does not make up much of their diet compared to the rest of the population.
This is ridiculous to compare to waging war on germany by the jews.  Not even close.

BDS movement might be annoying but it is not going to effect Israel or products made in Israel.  Less than one or two percent maybe?  Hardly bankruptcy.  It might be more of a sting to publicity than to the sheqel bottom line.


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## Coyote (Jan 29, 2015)

Humanity said:


> Penelope said:
> 
> 
> > Humanity said:
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She's Cuckoo for Cocoa Puffs.

That's the most pathetic justification for the extermination of 2/3 of Europe's Jews that I ever heard.

Were the Slavs, Gypsies, Gays and 7th Day Adventists in on the boycott too?


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## aris2chat (Jan 29, 2015)

Humanity said:


> Penelope said:
> 
> 
> > Humanity said:
> ...



Holocaust was a declaration of war on the jewish population of the world but a boycott just a splash of cold water.


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## RoccoR (Jan 29, 2015)

_et al,_

The issue of the "holocaust" is often framed, quite incorrectly, in a lesser included offense that is more palatable; like the "declaration of war on the jewish population."  It is a very polite way to describe what would otherwise shock the sensibilities of humanity.  After all, "war" is much better understood than the heinous crime of "genocide" which _(as acted out on the scale of the Holocaust)_ would shock the sensibilities of humanity and acceptable morality.  Genocide is a case in which the moral particularist believes that NO moral rule is always and everywhere "true" _(no moral boundary is unbreakable and there are no absolute limits to actions that are intentionally taken to achieve what they believe is the greater happiness for the greatest number --- the destruction of the Jews and any enclave of protection)_.

It is my personal opinion that the "holocaust" should never be equated _(downgraded)_ to a "War on Jews" because the objective was committed with the intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, or religious foundation that represented the culture and heritage of the Jewish People; without mercy and with no leniency in the pain or suffering in its execution and with no compassion for the age, gender or competency.



aris2chat said:


> Holocaust was a declaration of war on the jewish population of the world but a boycott just a splash of cold water.


*(COMMENT)*

War, on the other hand, in its various forms _(scales of combat, economic, political, etc)_ are not generally fought over true moral issues or conducted on the basis of a moral question.  The Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions Movement _(BDS Movement)_ is a nonviolent engagement of market forces with a specific target and a clear objective working towards a specific goal _(just the same as any war); _that being a global campaign attempting to increase economic and political pressure _(coercion)_ on Israel to comply with the stated goals of the movement: the end of Israeli occupation and colonization of Palestinian land _(from the river to the sea --- denying the legitimacy of Israel's presence on any part of Palestine no matter how long)_.   The BDS, in and by itself, is a very different thing from "genocide" _(which is not an Palestinian goal)_ --- or --- Jihad and the armed resistance _(which is a goal)_ as a real method for the destruction of Israel _(what the Palestinian considers the liberation of Palestine)_; and the restoration of all the rights the Arab Palestinian believes they have been denied _(but which they have exercised but found unsatisfying)_. 

Most Respectfully,
R


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## aris2chat (Jan 29, 2015)

RoccoR said:


> _et al,_
> 
> The issue of the "holocaust" is often framed, quite incorrectly, in a lesser included offense that is more palatable; like the "declaration of war on the jewish population."  It is a very polite way to describe what would otherwise shock the sensibilities of humanity.  After all, "war" is much better understood than the heinous crime of "genocide" which _(as acted out on the scale of the Holocaust)_ would shock the sensibilities of humanity and acceptable morality.  Genocide is a case in which the moral particularist believes that NO moral rule is always and everywhere "true" _(no moral boundary is unbreakable and there are no absolute limits to actions that are intentionally taken to achieve what they believe is the greater happiness for the greatest number --- the destruction of the Jews and any enclave of protection)_.
> 
> ...



was not trying to belittle the holocaust, just to show a boycott was not waging war on german


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## Lipush (Jan 30, 2015)

Challenger said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Penelope said:
> ...



That Jews boycotted Nazis?

That means some were more clever than others and recognized the danger before it even started.

What's "Ironic" about it? it's only makes you haters look really really stupid.


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## Lipush (Jan 30, 2015)

Penelope said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Penelope said:
> ...




Honestly? not so much.  Millions of my own people died, at the time, no place or interest to worry about Germans, who were strangers.

My family lost 17 of its members in WW2. 9 if them were teen girls who were murdered before reaching the camp. 3 died in Lithuania. 5 murdered in Auschwitz.

Why should the Germans of the war interest me in the slightest, when my family got wiped out?


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## Lipush (Jan 30, 2015)

Let's do a lame comparison, and I say "lame" because it is. But the point's going to be clear.

Many states now boycott Israeli goods, and I'm not getting to whatever reason they do that for, but they do. Britain, Denmark, Sweden, etc. Is that a declaration of war? that's a 'violent' use of freedom of expression. We mostly don't agree, but one has to be crazy to call it "declaration of war". I don't see Israel fighting with any of those states.

Saying Jews boycotting any state is declaration of war, is outwide insane. One should be crazy to even thing that.


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## Challenger (Jan 30, 2015)

Lipush said:


> ...What's "Ironic" about it? it's only makes you haters look really really stupid.



The Jewish community abroad called for a boycott on German goods because of how Jewish people were treated in Germany. The Palestinian community calls for a boycott on Israeli goods because of how the Israelis treat the Palestinians. "Plus ça change, plus c’est la même chose."

I don't hate Jewish people, that's a calumny.


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## Lipush (Jan 30, 2015)

I don't know why they boycotted Nazi goods, probably because the Nazis hated and wanted to kill them and you don't offer your hand to the wolf for it to chew on it, and all that.

Palestinians boycott Israeli goods that come from the settlements because they don't like settlers.

But the boycott isn't what we call "declaration of war". Hell, if they don't want Israeli food, let them starve, for all we care. It's their business and what they choose to do with their money is their problem. It's them stabbing and bombing that we call war. Not the boycott bullshit.

Boycott isn't war. Friggin' _war_ is war.


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## fanger (Jan 30, 2015)




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## Coyote (Jan 30, 2015)

Lipush said:


> I don't know why they boycotted Nazi goods, probably because the Nazis hated and wanted to kill them and you don't offer your hand to the wolf for it to chew on it, and all that.
> 
> Palestinians boycott Israeli goods that come from the settlements because they don't like settlers.
> 
> ...



Boycotts are civilized ways of making opinions heard.


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## aris2chat (Jan 30, 2015)

fanger said:


>


sensationalized headlines.  There was no war, no combat, no armed struggle, no bombing, no genocide of nazis by the jews.

World wide jews make up 2% perhaps.  A boycott of german good, or even a boston tea party of german goods is a protest and hardly going to dent the german economy or state.
Orthodox jews would not be buying germany food unless it was kosher anyhow.  Clothing also would be limited.  Appliances, tools, machines would fall more into luxury items and not main stays of the german economy back then.  Jewish craftsmen could likely make a good deal of the items themselves.  Many items would have to be scolded or scorched before they would enter a jewish home.
Boycott is not war, not by a population that was so small.  Even if jews made up 10% of the population it would not have really mattered.  It was a bruise to the promotion of german nationalism far more than an economic jab.

Did the mentally or physically impaired, gays, gypsies, catholics, etc., boycott german items?   Were there headlines of them declaring war on germany?  The headlines were just an excuse to turn german sentiment from protecting or being sympathetic to jews.  It made the pogroms, arrests and killings a national protection issue, at least via publicity.
The issue was written to seem if jews don't buy german then they are not real germans.  The US has had it's share of buy american campaigns.  Now it is more about rejecting sweat shop foreign labor rather than american jobs but we still, like most nations do, try to consider the idea of buy local as a good thing.  There is not reason to think that jews outside of germany had any reason to want german products in the first place and local jews prefered to buy items that were "jewish" because of the faith no out of anti-nationalism.

There might be a BDS publicity going on  but western Muslims are buying items that they think fit their religious life rather than buying locally made items.  They are not kept in ghettos like the jews were.  Some try to integrate into the local society, other do not.


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## Coyote (Jan 30, 2015)

Holocaust Hoaxers follow typical conspiracy-theory style patterns 

Blame the victims
a)Judea (not just Jews but all of Judaism) started it by declaring war on Germany
b)Germany was just trying to protect itself from Communist inflitration led by Jews, therefore Jews are untrustworthy and undermining Germany

Justify and minimize the actions
a) Nazi's never planned to kill Jews, they just wanted to first identify, and then detain them because they were enemies of the state
b) Most of them died of starvation and illness therefore Nazi's can't be held responsible

Promote poorly supported conclusions
a)Find some hole in the facts and use that hole to deny the entire body of evidence (anti-evolutionists are big on this) - by using a Important Researcher (who's words are most likely cherry picked for the pertinant facts and who's conclusions are usually left out) - or who's opinion is considered fringe.  For example - the claim that there were no gas chambers.
b)Use those fringe personalities to put together compelling video propaganda that includes all of the above and hopefully promotes fear and anger in the audience, directed towards  Jews.
.
Hoaxer "conclusions": 
a)The Nazi's were misunderstood.
b)Jews are still a threat undermining the state by promoting the hoax.

Textbook Conspiracy Theory.


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## danielpalos (Jan 30, 2015)

It may be why some on the left just ask, what happened to the tribe of Judah?


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## Lipush (Jan 30, 2015)

fanger said:


>




Yeah, because newspapers say nothing but facts


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## fanger (Jan 30, 2015)

Economic warfare


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## aris2chat (Jan 30, 2015)

fanger said:


> Economic warfare



BS
You just want an excuse to blame the jews.  Jews did not and do not make up enough of the market to have even dented the bottom line.  Jews buy from other jews not for economics but for conforming to their faith.  They pay higher prices for most kosher items.
If a quarter or more of the german population had boycotted all german products it might have mattered.  Jews in Germany made up around 1% and lived and bought items from within their own communities.  There were a large number of stores in germany that would not sell to jews or hire jews, so where is the economic warfare against germany?
It is all a smoke screen to justify the hate and horrors.
The muslim world for the most part boycotts Israeli good and has for the better part of the last century.  That is a third of the global population.  Gaza has flip flopped on boycott vs. permitting Israeli items.
UN and other donors have stopped shoveling good money after bad into gaza and even the PA is reluctant to invest in gaza. That is on Hamas no Israel.  If people buy Israeli it is better for Israel but they have not based their economy on global sales and certainly not on muslim sales of their items.
Palestinians have hardly developed an economic system, they rely on others to support them, and most of that is graft funneled into the pockets of terrorists and so called officials that don't even know where there desks are.
The idea of economic warfare by a small percentage is bogus.


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## fanger (Jan 30, 2015)

INTRODUCTION

by Dr. E. R Fields

(IMPORTANT NOTE : During the period studied
here, 1919 to 1932, Jews made up only 1% of the
population in Germany -yet they dominated business
and politics. Today in America, Jews make up only
3% of population yet they dominate both business
and politics!)

The failure of the 1905 Bolshevik Revolution in
Russia resulted in tens-of-thousands of Jews fleeing to
Germany as they were the chief architects of that
first attempt to overthrow the Czar. They filled the
cities as the charts herein attest. Working in collusion
with their co-racialists the Jews quickly dominated
the professions. With Germany in depression and the
value of the mark wiped out the Jews were able to
buy businesses often at less than 1% of their true
value. With a loaf of bread costing 100,000 marks the
Jews obtained loans from Jewish banks and bought
up industry, newspapers, vast blocks of apartment
buildings - all for pennies on the dollar.

The same Jewish financial takeover has occurred
in this country. The late Robert Maxwell got control
of the London Daily Mirror. Maxwell, a Czech Jew,
(real name, Jan Ludvik Hock), secretly milked the
papers' pension fund to buy controlling stock in
Macmillan Publishers and other properties. The
Chicago Tribune offered Maxwell the bankrupt New
York Daily News if he would assume their debt of
$150 million. Maxwell agreed if the Tribune would
first pay him $60 million. He used this in a Ponzi
type scheme to pay off growing debts. As his
"empire" began to collapse Maxwell flew to his yacht
in the Canary Islands. On the night of Nov. 5, 1991,
a nude, 350 pound Maxwell jumped into the sea and
drowned. Thousands of employees in his takeover
companies lost much of their pensions.






Drexel Bumham Lambert securities firm filed
for bankruptcy with $3.6 billion in debt in 1990 but
were able to pay huge "bonuses" to their Jewish
executives. They laid off 5,300 employees. Their
"junk bond" traders, Michael Milken, Dennis Levine
and Ivan Boesky, (all Jews), went to prison serving
from two to three years - a mere slap on the wrist.
The company paid $650 million in fines. Their
scheme was to sell "junk bonds" which were then
used by clients to buy-up Christian-owned companies.
They would sell off the companies assets to pay off the
junk bonds while paying themselves huge "salaries"
and then bankrupt the company. Safeway Foods was
such a victim and 17,000 hard working employees lost
their jobs and retirees their pension while the Jews
made off with multi-millions.

Drexel paid Michael Milken $550 million in 1987
which was more than McDonald's profits for that
year. Drexel engineered some 3,973 buyouts which, in
most cases, consisted of Jews taking over Gentile
companies, selling off their assets, firing employees
and pocketing the company cash.

Ian Boesky paid Dennis Levine a 5% commission
for "inside tips" on the sale or takeover of companies
whose stock would suddenly rise. Boesky made $4
million when given inside information that Nabisco
was to be bought by Jewish-owned RJ. Reynolds
Tobacco, $4.1 million from Houston Gas, as well
millions on stock purchases of General Foods and
Union Carbide. Boesky paid Levine $2.4 million and
Martin Sicgel $700,000 in cash stuffed suitcases for
the 'Inside information." It was Boesky who made
that infamous speech to a class at the University of
California in which he said: "Greedis good , greed is
healthy!" S

Full text of Jewish Domination Of Weimar Germany 1919-1932


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## aris2chat (Jan 30, 2015)

fanger said:


> INTRODUCTION
> 
> by Dr. E. R Fields
> 
> ...



You are falsely implying they got the bonuses because they were jews not because they were executives.  Many companies have set up executives with bonuses even after filing for government bailouts or bankruptcy.  Cars and banks had huge bonuses.  That was not faith based but the nature of the contracts offered by the companies.

Stop turning everything into racial hate.  If jews happen to work hard and are well educated and advance to high paying positions, why should that be racial?  It just means they try harder.  Jews do not make up the majority of executive jobs, but because education is stressed during their upbringing they might have a higher percentage that their 3%.  Women and and non-white were under represented for a long time, but are becoming more proportional.

Instead if blaming jews you should be stressing for higher education and higher test scores and work ethic for the rest of the population.  Jews are hired for the their skills not because of their religion.

Why are japanese and asians in general better educated than the average american?  Why are test scores and total knowledge base higher?  Even in the US they are more likely to attend private schools and spend more hours each day on homework.  They are involved in more music and less sports than the average student.  They have a stronger work ethic.  Are they doing something wrong?  Should they be penalized for?  Why should those less willing to work hard be advanced to high paying jobs?

Your venom is dripping with each post.


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## Hossfly (Jan 30, 2015)

aris2chat said:


> fanger said:
> 
> 
> > INTRODUCTION
> ...


It's a well known fact that throughout history, Jews in many countries aspired to lofty positions in industry, the arts, finance and government. After a period of time they were reviled, hated and persecuted in those countries until Hitler finally did what all the others always wanted to do. He just did it first.


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## Coyote (Jan 30, 2015)

fanger said:


> Economic warfare



Boycotts aren't warfare, it was just an excuse to find a convenient scapegoat minority and act on it.


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## Coyote (Jan 30, 2015)

Hossfly said:


> aris2chat said:
> 
> 
> > fanger said:
> ...




Actually, the irony here is not necessarily that they aspired to those positions but in many countries finance and industry were the only positions they could aspire to due to laws preventing them from owning land or being involved in certain occupations.


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## Hossfly (Jan 30, 2015)

fanger said:


> INTRODUCTION
> 
> by Dr. E. R Fields
> 
> ...


Do they read sites like Stormfront and JewWatch (notorious hate sites) in Iran, Jos?  Strange (not really) how you found an article written by some NeoNazi, Dr. Fields.  By the way, Jos, since you are talking about money, how much gold do you think the Ayatollah Khomeini has shipped out of your old country Iran.  I heard it was billions.


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## Coyote (Jan 30, 2015)

There are a lot of hate sites out there that subscribe to conspiracy-style "logic"in order to demonize groups of people.  It amazes me how easily people believe things.


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## RoccoR (Jan 30, 2015)

fanger, et al,

This is a scrambled set of facts.



fanger said:


> INTRODUCTION
> 
> by Dr. E. R Fields
> 
> (IMPORTANT NOTE : During the period studied here, 1919 to 1932, Jews made up only 1% of the population in Germany -yet they dominated business and politics. Today in America, Jews make up only 3% of population yet they dominate both business and politics!) ... ... ...


*(COMMENT)*

First,  Edward R. Fields is not a PhD _(which he likes to mislead people he is)_.  He never completed a doctorate program; although he did attend Palmer School of Chiropractic in Davenport, Iowa and is a Chiropractor.  He is a well known White Supremacy and anti-Semitism affiliated with such organizations as the The Anti-Jewish Party and the Knights of the Ku Klux Klan (KKK).  He is the owner of the website _Truth at Last_  that he calls the "premier White Patriot newspaper" (if that tells you anything).

This is story is about a class struggle.  He attempts to make some association between White Collar crime (mostly Wall Street), plus Political Shenanigans --- and --- Jewish Affiliation.

Take what you will from him, but I would not use him as a principle source.  He material is garbage.

Most Respectfully,
R


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## aris2chat (Jan 30, 2015)

Coyote said:


> Hossfly said:
> 
> 
> > aris2chat said:
> ...



Medicine and teaching were also jobs that have more flexibility, that could be carried from town to town or state to state.  Many spoke more than one language and had family or friends in other nationals so business/trade was a natural choice.  Their education make they valuable to heads of states as translators.  They had a reputation of being honest, even by those who hated them.

The most valuable thing for jews, historically and today, is their own mind, their own skills.  The only ones they could rely on were family and other jews.  Most of their wealth was portable or banked with other jewish communities in case they had to leave.


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## Challenger (Jan 31, 2015)

Lipush said:


> fanger said:
> 
> 
> >
> ...



I'll remind you of that next time you post something from Israel Hayom, etc.


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## Challenger (Jan 31, 2015)

RoccoR said:


> fanger, et al,
> 
> This is a scrambled set of facts.
> 
> ...



Edward R. Fields did not write the pamphlet, it was originally published in 1933 by the "General League of Anti-Communist Associations" and has been reprinted in 2003 by an organisation called "The Truth at Last", which is affiliated to various Right-wing White-Supremacist and Anti-Semitic organisations. 

I've not read it myself, so I can't comment on it. Given the above however, I'd agree the material should be treated with caution. For historians on the other hand, it's an important document that helps us to  understand attitudes held at the time amongst some sectors of the population.


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## aris2chat (Jan 31, 2015)

Challenger said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > fanger, et al,
> ...



You quoted Fields' introduction

http://ia601807.us.archive.org/12/i...nation of Weimar Germany - 1919-1932_text.pdf

Edward Fields


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## Phoenall (Jan 31, 2015)

Challenger said:


> Penelope said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...






  And this is the same thing that the Palestinians are hoping to achieve in the M.E. today the genocide of 6 million Jews because that is what their religion tells them they must do. They gave the idea to the Germans who saw how demonising the Jews and segregating them was a way to get the people behind them when they went on their quest for World Domination. The Palestinians self imposed leader sided with the German Riech and assisted in recruiting muslims to serve in the German army. In return he wanted the Germans to eradicate all the Jews in Palestine so he could become the new Caliph and rule as he wanted.


----------



## montelatici (Jan 31, 2015)

Now that is what you call "a pack of lies".


----------



## Phoenall (Feb 1, 2015)

Correct all ISLAMONAZI APOLOGISTS and WHITE SUPREMACISTS are branded JEW HATING ANTI SEMITES and not one has proven they are not. Still waiting for you to prove you are not anti semitic............


----------



## montelatici (Feb 1, 2015)

I'm waiting for you to prove you are not a psychopath.


----------



## Phoenall (Feb 2, 2015)

montelatici said:


> Now that is what you call "a pack of lies".







  Read their charters and see what they say about wiping out the Jews and destroying Israel.  Too many times have we heard some Palestinian official calling for the genocide of the Jews, and for all of islam to rise up and wipe them out. You yourself have espoused the genocide of the Jews once the Palestinians demographics are right and Iran has a nuclear arsenal.


----------



## Phoenall (Feb 2, 2015)

montelatici said:


> I'm waiting for you to prove you are not a psychopath.





 Very simple to prove

 I am not a muslism

 I do not support islam

 I do not play for team Palestine

 I do not have a criminal record for violence

 There you go Abdul proof that it is you that is the psychopath


----------



## Phoenall (Feb 2, 2015)

montelatici said:


> I'm waiting for you to prove you are not a psychopath.





 Very simple to prove

 I am not a muslism

 I do not support islam

 I do not play for team Palestine

 I do not have a criminal record for violence

 There you go Abdul proof that it is you that is the psychopath


----------



## Challenger (Feb 2, 2015)

Double posting, "methinks she doth protest too much" 

Go on Phoney, take the test, I dare ya. Levenson Self-Report Psychopathy Scale


----------



## Challenger (Feb 2, 2015)

aris2chat said:


> Challenger said:
> 
> 
> > RoccoR said:
> ...



Did I, where? Sure you're not confusing me with Fanger?


----------



## Phoenall (Feb 2, 2015)

Challenger said:


> Double posting, "methinks she doth protest too much"
> 
> Go on Phoney, take the test, I dare ya. Levenson Self-Report Psychopathy Scale





 Took it and scored 2.4 and 2.2 respectively


----------



## Coyote (Feb 2, 2015)

Phoenall said:


> Challenger said:
> 
> 
> > Penelope said:
> ...



No they didn't.


----------



## Phoenall (Feb 3, 2015)

Coyote said:


> Phoenall said:
> 
> 
> > Challenger said:
> ...






 Yes they did and the evidence is their in the records. They both used the same method of singling out various groups for special attention by the use of markings. They both introduced punitive taxation, what work they could do, what they could build etc.


----------



## Challenger (Feb 3, 2015)

Phoenall said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Phoenall said:
> ...



No they didn't. *Prove* the Nazis took the "same method of singling out various groups for special attention by the use of markings."  from Muslims.


----------



## Phoenall (Feb 3, 2015)

Challenger said:


> Phoenall said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...






History of the Yellow Star

The oldest reference to using mandatory articles of clothing to identify and distinguish Jews from the rest of society was in 807 CE. In this year, Abbassid caliph Haroun al-Raschid ordered all Jews to wear a yellow belt and a tall, cone-like hat.1


----------



## fanger (Feb 3, 2015)

Israel ends Arab worker 'marking'




Red cross marking were for security reasons, said Knesset officials
*Israeli security officials have been told to stop making Arab construction workers at the Knesset wear distinctive identifying marks on their hard hats.*
Israeli parliamentary speaker Reuven Rivlin, ordered an end to the controversial policy.

The Arab builders had been made to wear helmets with red crosses on top so they were identifiable to* marksmen* guarding parliament, reported the Maariv Daily.
BBC NEWS Middle East Israel ends Arab worker marking


----------



## Phoenall (Feb 3, 2015)

fanger said:


> Israel ends Arab worker 'marking'
> 
> 
> 
> ...






 So they become just anyone and when they are killed who will YOU blame ?


----------



## Coyote (Feb 3, 2015)

Phoenall said:


> Challenger said:
> 
> 
> > Phoenall said:
> ...



That doesn't prove anything.  You claimed or implied that the Palestinians give the idea of Jewish genocide to the Germans.  They did not.  Neither did Muslims.


----------



## aris2chat (Feb 3, 2015)

Coyote said:


> Phoenall said:
> 
> 
> > Challenger said:
> ...



The Mufti of Jerusalem Architect of the Holocaust - Breitbart


----------



## montelatici (Feb 3, 2015)

Now you link to a piece by Pamela Geller.  Do you know who she is?  Here's a hint.  From the Southern Poverty Law Center:

"Pamela Geller is the anti-Muslim movement's most visible and flamboyant figurehead. She's relentlessly shrill and coarse in her broad-brush denunciations of Islam and makes preposterous claims, such as that President Obama is the "love child" of Malcolm X. She makes no pretense of being learned in Islamic studies, leaving the argumentative heavy lifting to her Stop Islamization of America partner Robert Spencer. Geller has mingled comfortably with European racists and fascists, spoken favorably of South African racists, defended Serbian war criminal Radovan Karadzic and denied the existence of Serbian concentration camps."

Pamela Geller Southern Poverty Law Center


----------



## Phoenall (Feb 4, 2015)

montelatici said:


> Now you link to a piece by Pamela Geller.  Do you know who she is?  Here's a hint.  From the Southern Poverty Law Center:
> 
> "Pamela Geller is the anti-Muslim movement's most visible and flamboyant figurehead. She's relentlessly shrill and coarse in her broad-brush denunciations of Islam and makes preposterous claims, such as that President Obama is the "love child" of Malcolm X. She makes no pretense of being learned in Islamic studies, leaving the argumentative heavy lifting to her Stop Islamization of America partner Robert Spencer. Geller has mingled comfortably with European racists and fascists, spoken favorably of South African racists, defended Serbian war criminal Radovan Karadzic and denied the existence of Serbian concentration camps."
> 
> Pamela Geller Southern Poverty Law Center






 So because she is anti muslim her words are not valid. You do realise that since the war in Serbia the USA have looked at the evidence and realised that it was the muslims doing all the murders. Would you like some of the less graphic pictures of muslim atrocities shown on here, or can you explain the many videos of beheadings by muslim thugs of Christians.
 This is why you will never be seen as an unbiased person because you have a very strong bias in favour of islam and the muslims. You never look at the other side and just dismiss it as propaganda, then spout ISLAMONAZI blood libels and lies


----------



## montelatici (Feb 4, 2015)

_
"So because she is anti muslim her words are not valid."_

If someone were a known/published antisemite, would you believe his/her words were valid.

There are Muslim thugs killing women and children by the thousands and there are Jewish Israeli thugs killing women and children by the thousands.  Why can't you see both sides? 

I am an unbiased neutral, neither Muslim nor Jewish,I almost always post fact from source documentation and on the rare occasion a news story.


----------



## Challenger (Feb 4, 2015)

Phoenall said:


> montelatici said:
> 
> 
> > Now you link to a piece by Pamela Geller.  Do you know who she is?  Here's a hint.  From the Southern Poverty Law Center:
> ...



So by your logic David Irving's words are valid and unbiased, way to go Phoney!


----------



## Challenger (Feb 4, 2015)

aris2chat said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Phoenall said:
> ...





aris2chat said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Phoenall said:
> ...



Geller's assertions, or rather Maurice Pearlman's (interesting he wrote his bok under a pseudonym) make much of Dieter Wisliceny's afidavit. Can anyone provide a link to the part of this afidavit where he accuses the Mufti?


----------



## aris2chat (Feb 4, 2015)

Challenger said:


> aris2chat said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...


----------



## Coyote (Feb 4, 2015)

aris2chat said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Phoenall said:
> ...



Dumping blame for the Holocaust on the Grand Mufti is an insult to its six million victims - Comment - Voices - The Independent


----------



## aris2chat (Feb 4, 2015)

Coyote said:


> aris2chat said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...



Fisk....of course.


----------



## Coyote (Feb 4, 2015)

aris2chat said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > aris2chat said:
> ...




and Brietbart.

and Pamela Geller.

Claim made - the Mufti/Muslims/Palestinians gave Hitler the idea for genocide.

Even the Jewish Virtual Library article on the Mufti doesn't claim that: The Mufti and the F hrer Jewish Virtual Library

Nasty vicious racist man - yes.  But a drop in the Nazi bucket.


----------



## aris2chat (Feb 4, 2015)

Coyote said:


> aris2chat said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...



Brietbart is just a news service, like the Independent.  Geller is not unbias on her blog, but is a well regarded journalist beyond that.
Do you really need a list of other sources that show the Mufti's connection to the holocaust?  there are several good books over the decades.


----------



## Coyote (Feb 4, 2015)

aris2chat said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > aris2chat said:
> ...





Pam Gellar is not.


----------



## Challenger (Feb 4, 2015)

aris2chat said:


> Do you really need a list of other sources that show the Mufti's connection to the holocaust?  there are several good books over the decades.



Yes please. Objective, historical works preferably, thanks


----------



## Coyote (Feb 4, 2015)

Challenger said:


> aris2chat said:
> 
> 
> > Do you really need a list of other sources that show the Mufti's connection to the holocaust?  there are several good books over the decades.
> ...



Thing is, the argument* isn't that there is a connection between the Mufti and the Nazi's, that's not in dispute*.  The claim made by Phoenall was that *the Mufti gave the idea of genocide to the Nazi's* and that is false as is the idea that the Mufti played any sort of *major role *with the Nazi's.  He was indicted for war crimes, for recruiting 20,000 Muslims to the SS and killing Jews in Croatia and Hungary.


----------



## Coyote (Feb 4, 2015)

aris2chat said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > aris2chat said:
> ...



Gellar is not a "well regarded" journalist.  In fact, she's not a journalist at all.  She's the equivalent of David Duke. The only reason people "like her" is she hates Muslims and feeds their conspiracy theory fears.

The argument is not that there is no connection, read what Phoenall claims before rushing to defend him.  His claim is that the Mufti gave the Nazi's the idea of genocide.  That is not true.


----------



## fanger (Feb 4, 2015)

Phoenall is (almost) a She


----------



## abu afak (Feb 4, 2015)

Coyote said:


> ...
> 
> Thing is, the argument* isn't that there is a connection between the Mufti and the Nazi's, that's not in dispute*.  The claim made by Phoenall was that *the Mufti gave the idea of genocide to the Nazi's* and that is false as is the idea that the Mufti played any sort of *major role *with the Nazi's.  He was indicted for war crimes, for recruiting 20,000 Muslims to the SS and killing Jews in Croatia and Hungary.


Muftism and Nazism World War II Collaboration Documents
(JPGs of documents included)

*Muftism and Nazism: World War II 
Collaboration Documents [/quote]*
(examples of Original correspondence)

*1) U.S. Confirms Role of Mufti as Nazi Middle East Leader*

OFFICE OF U.S. CHIEF OF COUNSEL
FOR PROSECUTION OF AXIS CRIMINALITY
No. 792-PS
17 September 1945
Source of Original OKW Files, Flensburg

[Excerpt]
LEADS: CANARIS, IBN SAUD, GRAND MUFTI.

SUMMARY OF RELEVANT POINTS (with page references):

1. Only through the funds made available by Germany to the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem was it possible to carry out the revolt in Palestine. (Page 1).

2. Germany will keep up the connection with the Grand Mufti. *Weapons will be stored for the Mufti with Ibn Saud in Arabia.* (Page 2).

3.* Ibn Saud* himself has close connections with the Grand Mufti and the revolting circles in TransJordan. (Page 2).

4. To be able to carry out our work one of Germany's agents will be placed in *Cairo* (Page 3).

5. The document is undated but obviously written before the outbreak of the war in 1939. It is not signed.

Analyst Landmann Doc. No. 792-PS

Source:The Arab Higher Committee, Its Origins, Personnel and Purposes, The Documentary Record Submitted to The United Nations, May 1947, by Nations Associates

Further Excerpts Include:

2) Summons to a Intifada Against Britain
A "Fatwa " Issued by Haj Amin al-Husseini10, May, 1941*
....
*3) The Mufti's Diary on His Meeting with Hitler*
[PHOTO]
....
*4) Ribbentrop Promises Mufti to Destroy Jewish National Home*

....
5) The Mufti Asks Arab Americans Not to Support FDR
....

*6) Himmler to The Mufti*
....
*
7) The Mufti Communicates Anger to Ribbentrop
for the Germans' Release of Jews in 1944

- - - -*​


----------



## Coyote (Feb 4, 2015)

abu afak said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > ...
> ...


(examples of Original correspondence)

*1) U.S. Confirms Role of Mufti as Nazi Middle East Leader*

OFFICE OF U.S. CHIEF OF COUNSEL
FOR PROSECUTION OF AXIS CRIMINALITY
No. 792-PS
17 September 1945
Source of Original OKW Files, Flensburg

[Excerpt]

LEADS: CANARIS, IBN SAUD, GRAND MUFTI.

SUMMARY OF RELEVANT POINTS (with page references):

1. Only through the funds made available by Germany to the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem was it possible to carry out the revolt in Palestine. (Page 1).

2. Germany will keep up the connection with the Grand Mufti. *Weapons will be stored for the Mufti with Ibn Saud in Arabia.* (Page 2).

3.* Ibn Saud* himself has close connections with the Grand Mufti and the revolting circles in TransJordan. (Page 2).

4. To be able to carry out our work one of Germany's agents will be placed in *Cairo* (Page 3).

5. The document is undated but obviously written before the outbreak of the war in 1939. It is not signed.

Analyst Landmann Doc. No. 792-PS

Source:The Arab Higher Committee, Its Origins, Personnel and Purposes, The Documentary Record Submitted to The United Nations, May 1947, by Nations Associates

Furher Excerpts Include:

2) Summons to a Intifada Against Britain
A "Fatwa " Issued by Haj Amin al-Husseini10, May, 1941*
....
*3) The Mufti's Diary on His Meeting with Hitler*
[PHOTO]
....
*4) Ribbentrop Promises Mufti to Destroy Jewish National Home*

....
5) The Mufti Asks Arab Americans Not to Support FDR
....

*6) Himmler to The Mufti*
....
*
7) The Mufti Communicates Anger to Ribbentrop
for the Germans' Release of Jews in 1944

- - - -*​[/QUOTE]

What is your point here?  No one is disputing that there was a connection between the Mufti and the Nazi's.


----------



## abu afak (Feb 4, 2015)

Coyote said:


> abu afak said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...


What is your point here?  No one is disputing that there was a connection between the Mufti and the Nazi's.[/QUOTE]
My point was to show the DEGREE of cooperation, which you Downplayed/minimlaized.
My point nicely documented the issue up your wazoo.
Of course, the Mufti wasn't Hitler himself!
What's YOUR point?

You always take the _anti-cough-Israel_ position, and everyone knows it.
I despise your BS.
That's my point.
Just so we're clear.
`


----------



## Coyote (Feb 4, 2015)

abu afak said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > abu afak said:
> ...





> My point was to show the DEGREE of cooperation, which you Downplayed/minimlaized.
> My point nicely documented the issue up your wazoo.
> Of course, the Mufti wasn't Hitler himself!
> What's YOUR point?
> ...



The claim made was that the Mufti gave the Nazi's the idea for genocide.  True or false?


----------



## aris2chat (Feb 4, 2015)

Haj Amin Al-Husseini The Nazi Mufti and His Participatory Role in the Jewish Holocaust of World War II Matthew Morris - Academia.edu

Hitler rsquo s Mufti by David G. Dalin Articles First Things

Hitler s Mufti The Dark Legacy of Haj Amin al-Husseini - Crisis Magazine

Amazon.com Icon of Evil Hitler s Mufti and the Rise of Radical Islam 9781400156719 David G. Dalin John F. Rothmann Michael Prichard Books

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B003GWX8O4/?tag=ff0d01-20

The Grand Mufti Haj Amin al-Hussaini Founder of the Palestinian National ... - Z Elpeleg Shmuel Himelstein - Google Books

Reference Guide to the Nazis and Arabs During the Holocaust A Concise Guide ... - Google Books

The Mufti and the Fuehrer the rise and fall of Haj Amin el-Husseini - Joseph B. Schechtman - Google Books

The Holocaust Conspiracy An International Policy of Genocide - William R. Perl - Google Books

Crimes of the Holocaust The Law Confronts Hard Cases - Stephan Landsman - Google Books

Nazi Propaganda for the Arab World - Jeffrey Herf - Google Books


----------



## Phoenall (Feb 5, 2015)

montelatici said:


> _"So because she is anti muslim her words are not valid."_
> 
> If someone were a known/published antisemite, would you believe his/her words were valid.
> 
> ...





 Not if they were anti-Semitic in content no, just like yours which are constantly anti Jew, Anti Israel and anti Zionist ( still waiting for your definition after 1 month of asking )
 If you were unbiased you would see that the Palestinians have ethnically cleansed the Christians from Palestine and stop blaming Israel for it. Just as you would see the incitement to violence coming from hamas and fatah and the terrorist attacks on Israeli children. But all you do is claim they are propaganda against Palestine and that the evidence is all fabricated.

 I do see both sides, and I see the Jews fighting for their survival every day. I see the Palestinians skulking about looking for Israeli children to murder enabled by crass supporters like yourself. At the same time I see the damage done by extremist Israeli Jewish groups that should be outlawed and their leaders arrested and thrown in jail. I see the mistakes made by the Israeli government in not responding quickly and decisively enough to Palestinian terrorist attacks and propaganda attacks in the UN. I see the Israeli's trying to smooth things out with the UN instead of turning round and telling them to sort out the Palestinian terrorists or forget Israel is a member. See the UN deal with such a public outburst in its usual manner of mimicking an Ostrich  until the next Palestinian started war and Israel tells the UN to deal with its member states and not with the states that will no longer be racially abused by the UN.


----------



## Phoenall (Feb 5, 2015)

Challenger said:


> Phoenall said:
> 
> 
> > montelatici said:
> ...






 Now where did I post that, nice try wont fly. Stop trying to put words into my posts as it does not work, and it is the same as LYING


----------



## Phoenall (Feb 5, 2015)

Coyote said:


> aris2chat said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...







 WHY ?   because he is a muslim and the muslims have a history of being anti-Semitic Jew haters that have tried to wipe them out since the tribe at medina refused to worship Mohamed as god.


----------



## Phoenall (Feb 5, 2015)

Coyote said:


> abu afak said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...







 No the claim made is that the Mufti had a hand in drawing up the plans, it was a concerted effort between many parties.


----------



## Challenger (Feb 5, 2015)

aris2chat said:


> Haj Amin Al-Husseini The Nazi Mufti and His Participatory Role in the Jewish Holocaust of World War II Matthew Morris - Academia.edu
> 
> Hitler rsquo s Mufti by David G. Dalin Articles First Things
> 
> ...



Thanks for that, but I did specify OBJECTIVE; the one's I've looked at so far tend to follow Zionist historiography. Nevertheless I'll rummage through them in case there's the odd nugget of credible information  there.


----------



## Challenger (Feb 5, 2015)

Phoenall said:


> Challenger said:
> 
> 
> > Phoenall said:
> ...



"So because she is anti muslim her words are not valid." Your words. It follows then that just because David Irving is anti-Semitic his words must also be valid. Not putting words into your mouth, just following your thought processes to their logical conclusions.


----------



## Challenger (Feb 5, 2015)

Phoenall said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > aris2chat said:
> ...



No they don't, at least no more than anyone else and for most of the time they've been philo-Semites; why else have so many Jewish people emigrated into Muslim lands throughout history. Oh, the Banu Qurayza had betrayed the Muslims of Mohammed in the first place so you can understand why he treated them harshly (but not by the standards of the time) and broke the traty then in force which stated amongst other things;

“In the name of Allah (The One True God) the Compassionate, the Merciful. This is a document from Muhammad, the Prophet, governing the relation between the Believers from among the Qurayshites (i.e., Emigrants from Mecca) and Yathribites (i.e., the residents of Medina) and those who followed them and joined them and strived with them. They form one and the same community as against the rest of men."

“No Believer shall oppose the client of another Believer. Whosoever is rebellious, or seeks to spread injustice, enmity or sedition among the Believers, the hand of every man shall be against him, even if he be a son of one of them. A Believer shall not kill a Believer in retaliation of an unbeliever, nor shall he help an unbeliever against a Believer."

“*Whosoever among the Jews follows us shall have help and equality; they shall not be injured nor shall any enemy be aided against them*.... No separate peace will be made when the Believers are fighting in the way of Allah.... The Believers shall avenge the blood of one another shed in the way of Allah ....Whosoever kills a Believer wrongfully shall be liable to retaliation; all the Believers shall be against him as one man and they are bound to take action against him."

“*The Jews shall contribute (to the cost of war) with the Believers so long as they are at war with a common enemy. The Jews of Banu Najjar, Banu al-Harith, Banu Sa'idah, Banu Jusham, Banu al-Aws, Banu Tha'labah, Jafnah, and Banu al-Shutaybah enjoy the same rights and priviledges as the Jews of Banu Aws.*

*“The Jews shall maintain their own religion and the Muslims theirs.* Loyalty is a protection against treachery. The close friends of Jews are as themselves. None of them shall go out on a military expedition except with the permission of Muhammad, but he shall not be prevented from taking revenge for a wound.

“*The Jews shall be responsible for their expenses and the Believers for theirs. Each, if attacked, shall come to the assistance of the other.*

“The valley of Yathrib (Medina) shall be sacred and inviolable for all that join this Treaty. Strangers, under protection, shall be treated on the same ground as their protectors; but no stranger shall be taken under protection except with consent of his tribe....No woman shall be taken under protection without the consent of her family.

Whatever difference or dispute between the parties to this covenant remains unsolved shall be referred to Allah and to Muhammad, the Messenger of Allah. Allah is the Guarantor of the piety and goodness that is embodied in this covenant. Neither the Quraysh nor their allies shall be given any protection.

“The contracting parties are bound to help one another against any attack on Yathrib. If they are called to cease hostilities and to enter into peace, they shall be bound to do so in the interest of peace; and if they make a similar demand on Muslims it must be carried out except when the war is agianst their religion.

“Allah approves the truth and goodwill of this covenant. This treaty shall not protect the unjust or the criminal. Whoever goes out to fight as well as whoever stays at home shall be safe and secure in this city unless he has perpetrated an injustice or commited a crime.... Allah is the protector of the good and God-fearing people.”


----------



## Coyote (Feb 5, 2015)

Phoenall said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > abu afak said:
> ...



*
Post 122 - your words*



> And this is the same thing that the Palestinians are hoping to achieve in the M.E. today the genocide of 6 million Jews because that is what their religion tells them they must do. *They gave the idea to the Germans *who saw how demonising the Jews and segregating them was a way to get the people behind them when they went on their quest for World Domination. The Palestinians self imposed leader sided with the German Riech and assisted in recruiting muslims to serve in the German army. In return he wanted the Germans to eradicate all the Jews in Palestine so he could become the new Caliph and rule as he wanted.



Hitler's concentration camp and genocidal plans were already in action by the time the Mufti collaborated with Hitler.  The Mufti wanted Hitler to extend his anti-Jewish campaign to the Arab world and sought support for Arab unification and recognition..  Reading through this, it's clear the Mufti was a racist who hoped for Jewish genocide in Arab lands, but also that he was small potatoes in Hitlers genocidal ambitions and the Mufti's role is greatly inflated (most likely in an attempt to conflate the Palestinian cause with the Nazi's).  The Mufti and the F hrer Jewish Virtual Library


----------



## Phoenall (Feb 5, 2015)

Challenger said:


> Phoenall said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...






Yep bow down and worship me as god or be killed sayeth Mohamed. The tribe of Jews did not do anything but refuse to worship Mohamed and so they were massacred


----------



## Phoenall (Feb 5, 2015)

Coyote said:


> Phoenall said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...





 And Hitler had already read up on islam and seen how it worked, including the pact of Omar. This is almost word for word the Nuremburg laws.


----------



## Coyote (Feb 5, 2015)

Phoenall said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Phoenall said:
> ...



Islam, as a religion, does not include plans for a Jewish genocide.  Your claim was that the Mufti (and the Muslims) gave Hitler his idea for the Final Solution and that isn't true.  You have offered no evidence to support that.  In fact the only evidence you offered was that the got the idea for yellow stars from the way Muslim countries identified Jews, however even that is vague because Medievil Catholic Europe also required Jews to wear visable identifiable markers.


----------



## fanger (Feb 5, 2015)

Phoenall said:


> Yep bow down and worship me as god or be killed sayeth Mohamed. The tribe of Jews did not do anything but refuse to worship Mohamed and so they were massacred



Where did you read that, or did you just make it up?


----------



## Phoenall (Feb 5, 2015)

Coyote said:


> Phoenall said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...






 Here you go then

Hamas s genocide ideology

 
 Quran 3:181

 Sahih Muslim, Book 041, Number 6985]


----------



## Phoenall (Feb 5, 2015)

fanger said:


> Phoenall said:
> 
> 
> > Yep bow down and worship me as god or be killed sayeth Mohamed. The tribe of Jews did not do anything but refuse to worship Mohamed and so they were massacred
> ...






 In the hadiths that you muslims treat as throw aways when it does not suit, and as the word of god when it suits your purpose


----------



## Coyote (Feb 5, 2015)

Phoenall said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Phoenall said:
> ...



I think this is called "flinging shit" to see if anything sticks.

Your claim was: *Your claim was that the Mufti (and the Muslims) gave Hitler his idea for the Final Solution *

Instead, you toss in a video on Hamas (which, in the scheme of billions of Muslims world wide) - amounts to a drop in the bucket.
Where is the evidence to support the claim that Hitler got his genocidal ideas for the Final Solution from the Mufti or from Muslims?


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## abu afak (Feb 5, 2015)

fanger said:


> Phoenall said:
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> > Yep bow down and worship me as god or be killed sayeth Mohamed. The tribe of Jews did not do anything but refuse to worship Mohamed and so they were massacred
> ...


I'm a little baffled by your take/Lack of take.

Mohammed Killed, Cleansed, or Converted. the considerable amount of Jews in Mecca and Medina, (Perhaps Half the population in the latter) later Aqaba, and ALL of the Arabian Peninsula.
And all the Christians/Pagans too.
Mohammed was a Cleanser.

The Central Theme OF the Koran is PRETEXT to wipe out others.
"They insulted us", "They broke a treaty", etc

_"Two religions may not dwell together on the Arabian Peninsula"._
- Mohammed.

In fact, Hitler quipped Wished he was a Muslim, and said Christianity was too wimpy for him to do his dirty work.
He may well have been familiar with Islamic history and Mohammed's Cleansing of the Jews.
(someone tell Coyote too)
`


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## fanger (Feb 5, 2015)

I'm not a Muslim, but I know enough about Islam to know No Muslim would dare to tell someone to "*bow down and worship me as god*" as phoney claims


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## Challenger (Feb 5, 2015)

abu afak said:


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Were there any Jewish people in Aqaba? as for Christians, "As a result of their help to Prophet Muhammad in his conquest of Arabia the Banu Taghlib were allowed to keep their Christian faith and their status as Arabs if they paid the Jizya and promised not to interfere in their preaching or propagation of Islam." Christianity in Saudi Arabia - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia By the time Mohammed appeared Paganism was all but extinct anyway, Arabia was a mish mash of Christianity, Judaism, Zorastrianism, Animism, etc. I suspect you read far too much Islamophobic and Zionist drivel based on modern Islamism as opposed to real historical works.


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## Challenger (Feb 5, 2015)

fanger said:


> I'm not a Muslim, but I know enough about Islam to know No Muslim would dare to tell someone to "*bow down and worship me as god*" as phoney claims


 Yeah, contradicts the basic idea "there is no god but Allah" another piece of Phoney's baloney


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## Phoenall (Feb 5, 2015)

Coyote said:


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 No my claim was the Nazis got the idea from islam and the muslims, the Mufti was just the icing on the cake. The evidence is there in the Koran, hadiths and the Islamic histories that islam had it as a command from Mohamed to kill the Jews


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## Coyote (Feb 5, 2015)

Phoenall said:


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So you are claiming that the Nazi's got the idea for the Final Solution from Islam and the Muslims? Really now?  What evidence do you have that that is where his idea of genocide came from?


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## Phoenall (Feb 5, 2015)

fanger said:


> I'm not a Muslim, but I know enough about Islam to know No Muslim would dare to tell someone to "*bow down and worship me as god*" as phoney claims





 So you were around in the 7C and followed Mohamed around. He was a mentally incapacitated psychopath suffering from frontal lobe epilepsy, look it up to see what the symptoms are


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## Phoenall (Feb 5, 2015)

Challenger said:


> fanger said:
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> > I'm not a Muslim, but I know enough about Islam to know No Muslim would dare to tell someone to "*bow down and worship me as god*" as phoney claims
> ...




 What about the rest of the prayer ?


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## Phoenall (Feb 5, 2015)

Coyote said:


> Phoenall said:
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 The Koran and hadiths that he is known to have read while in prison. The Nuremburg laws are based on the pact of Omar and set out the rights of non muslims under Islamic rule.


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## Coyote (Feb 5, 2015)

The Final Solution 

Final Solution - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

Nothing about Muslim theology influencing the Final Solution.


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## abu afak (Feb 5, 2015)

Challenger said:


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*So your Dishonest response only deals with the minor Aqaba?
You concede ALL the other Major points?
Mecca, Medina, Cleansing the Jews throughout the Peninsula?
Mohammed;s statement.
The Koran?*

That's not 'debate' that's just a cheeky CONCESSION masquerading as mini-rebuttal.

NEXT!


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## Coyote (Feb 5, 2015)

Phoenall said:


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Hitler might have read the Bible too while he was in prison.  What exactly does that prove?  Where is the evidence that he got the idea from the Muslims?


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## Coyote (Feb 5, 2015)

*Hitler’s Inspiration and Guide: The Native American Holocaust* Hitler 8217 s Inspiration and Guide The Native American Holocaust Sacred Intentions Jewish Journal

Interesting.


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## fanger (Feb 5, 2015)

Phoenall said:


> fanger said:
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> > I'm not a Muslim, but I know enough about Islam to know No Muslim would dare to tell someone to "*bow down and worship me as god*" as phoney claims
> ...


You are the one who made the claim that Mohammed said  "*bow down and worship me as god*"


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## Challenger (Feb 5, 2015)

abu afak said:


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What major points? All you provided were unsubstantiated assertions, I merely questioned their accuracy. You have not proved Jewish Arabs were "cleansed" from anywhere, nor the sources you  used. Provide something of substance and it might be worth discussing, otherwise this is just bloviated hot air.


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## Coyote (Feb 5, 2015)

Phoenall said:


> fanger said:
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> ...


 
You're the one making claims.  When did Mohammed ever command others to worship him as God?


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## abu afak (Feb 5, 2015)

Challenger said:


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*Your posts are all CLOWNISH.
What happened to the Jews of Arabia is NOT in Dispute. It's Very Common Knowledge and IN the Koran.

Those major points.

You're posts are Fraud showing you know NOTHING and cite no history, just Contrarily Bluffing/Buffooning your way along.

You Obviously didn't even know there Were Jews in Arabia at the time of Mohammed! (if so, tell us what happened to them and when)

How ridiculous this debate with someone who obviously knows nothing.
*
`


Challenger said:


> abu afak said:
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*The Fact that Jews were cleansed from Arabia is Common knowledge and basic to even posting in this section.
(and of course In the Koran)

You shown ZERO knowledge of the topic, juts make empty challenges as some sort of 'debate, but its empty Contrariness/mere "No", because you have no knowledge whatsoever and just trying to Bluff/Buffoonb you way through with gratuitous empty objection.


EDIT to below post.
Challenger puts up yet another EMPTY post.
no counter argument at all.
NOTHING. 
Just another anti-cough-Israel Troll showing he didn't even know there were Jews in Arabia, much less that they were cleansed!
*


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## Challenger (Feb 5, 2015)

abu afak said:


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Figures. Just another Hasbarist troll.


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## Coyote (Feb 5, 2015)

abu afak said:


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"Challenger puts up yet another empty post"

I'm not seeing anything in this post beyond a lot of pompous bloviating from a guy who's in love with his thesaurus..


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## abu afak (Feb 5, 2015)

Coyote said:


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What a DISHONEST take Coyote.
There was tons in my preceding posts, unlike challengers' unbelievably Ignorant ones that were all mere protestations, not rebuttals.

He Protested common knowledge that the Jews were cleansed/killed/converted by Mohammed & Co., among Much other history

In fact, where were you wunderkind? Any rebuttal?
Any disagreement or just a Partisan Mod TROLLING.
Unlike me he put up NO factual content, no rebuttal, only calling simple history "hasbara"

This is indeed troubling, even RESIGNATION worthy.
I call on you to Resign as mod considering how biased your post in ignoring my content and cheerleading the string for the empty poster.
Absolute Disgrace.
*RESIGN

This post and all it quoted saved by me.*


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## Coyote (Feb 5, 2015)

abu afak said:


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Geez.  Even more bloviating.


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## Challenger (Feb 6, 2015)

abu afak said:


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Please point out any factual content you submitted.


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## Phoenall (Feb 6, 2015)

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 The Nuremberg laws and the pact of Omar are identical, showing that the Nazis were involved in islam when putting together the Final solution. The evidence is there, you just don't want to deal with it. You don't want there to be a connection between Islamic violence and genocide of the Jews and the Nazi violence and genocide of the Jews.


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## Phoenall (Feb 6, 2015)

Coyote said:


> *Hitler’s Inspiration and Guide: The Native American Holocaust* Hitler 8217 s Inspiration and Guide The Native American Holocaust Sacred Intentions Jewish Journal
> 
> Interesting.






 Was it the fact that your country was held up as being no better than the Nazi's and was in some small part responsible for the holocaust of the Jews. Did it give you a warm feeling to know that your fellow Americans were instrumental in the mass murder of Jews, Roma, Gays, Disabled and mental defectives. I know when I found out about my countries part in the holocaust I was ashamed of that heritage, and then when the hypocrites apologised to the blacks for the slave trade I was livid. I wonder when the US and UK will accept their parts in the atrocities of WW2 and give their apologies ?


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## Phoenall (Feb 6, 2015)

fanger said:


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 Which he did 3 times if you read the story, and when they refused he ordered his men to murder every man and take the women and children as slaves.


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## Phoenall (Feb 6, 2015)

Coyote said:


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 When he needed an excuse to attack the tribe of Jews in medina that was neutral, that is a shock to everyone until they read the facts from the Koran and hadiths. The hadiths tell of Mohamed sending a messenger to the tribe demanding they accept islam and bow down before him as they would god, they refused 3 times so he ordered his men to kill all the males who had pubic hair and to take the women and children as slaves.

Myth Muhammad and the Banu Qurayza


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## Challenger (Feb 6, 2015)

Phoenall said:


> ...The Nuremberg laws and the pact of Omar are identical...



Prove it, show us identical passages in the two.


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## Challenger (Feb 6, 2015)

Phoenall said:


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Straight from The Religion Of Peace website, there's a surprise. No bias there then, is there?


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## Phoenall (Feb 6, 2015)

Challenger said:


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 Straight from the Koran and hadiths which are not biased are they ?


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## Phoenall (Feb 6, 2015)

Challenger said:


> Phoenall said:
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> > ...The Nuremberg laws and the pact of Omar are identical...
> ...






 Why don't you  ?


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## fanger (Feb 6, 2015)

The Protocols of the Elders of Mecca The Final Word on the Pact of Umar loonwatch.com


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## Dogmaphobe (Feb 6, 2015)

Coyote said:


> Geez.  Even more bloviating.




 You are always right there to defend the most vicious antisemites the gene pool can vomit forth, aren't you?


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## Challenger (Feb 6, 2015)

Phoenall said:


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Except they're not. They're spun "interpretations" by Muslim-haters, of the works of Arab/Persian historians like al-Tabari who wrote centuries after the perported events are supposed to have occured. Histories based on surviving folklore. The originals don't have anywhere near the level of "detail" in that article, most of which is pure speculation.


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## Challenger (Feb 6, 2015)

Phoenall said:


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You made the assertion, it's up to you to prove your point. By turning it back on me, you conceed that your assertion is false. Thanks.


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## Phoenall (Feb 6, 2015)

Challenger said:


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 So the links to the Koran are false and those words are not in the Koran, is that what you are saying. The verses like strike of their heads are not in the Koran, nor are there shall only be one religion and that is islam.  When the Koran is used as an example of how evil islam is one of two things happen. Either we get as we do above a blanket denial that such verses are in the Koran, or that the verses have been taken out of context.


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## Phoenall (Feb 6, 2015)

Challenger said:


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    Here you go

Pact of Umar - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia
Nuremberg Laws - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia


 The first law *The Law for the Protection of German Blood and German Honour*,[29] prohibited marriages and extramarital intercourse between "Jews" and "Germans" and also the employment of "German" females under forty-five in Jewish households

The second law, *The Reich Citizenship Law*,[30] declared those not of German blood to be _Staatsangehörige_ (state subjects) while those classified as Aryans ("German or related blood") were _Reichsbürger_ (citizens of the _Reich_). Wilhelm Frick wrote "No Jew can become a Reich Citizen, because German blood is a prerequisite in the Reich citizenship code."

 Prohibition for non-Muslims males to marry a muslim wife.



Prohibition to ride animals as the Muslim custom, and prohibition to ride with a saddle.

Prohibition to adoption a Muslim title of honor.


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## Coyote (Feb 6, 2015)

Phoenall said:


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Specifically where do the Nuremberg laws say anything about Islam being the reason or even influencing their decision to go the genocide route?


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## Coyote (Feb 6, 2015)

Phoenall said:


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What is this supposed to prove?


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## Coyote (Feb 6, 2015)

Phoenall said:


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To quote you - can you find some unbiased and legitimate source?  Where does he order them to bow down before him as a God?


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## aris2chat (Feb 6, 2015)

fanger said:


> The Protocols of the Elders of Mecca The Final Word on the Pact of Umar loonwatch.com



Internet History Sourcebooks Project


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## Phoenall (Feb 6, 2015)

Coyote said:


> Phoenall said:
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 It doesn't but as Hitler said he wished he was born a muslim as Christians are so wimpy


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## Phoenall (Feb 6, 2015)

Coyote said:


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 The correlation between the pact of Omar and the Nuremberg laws that you asked for, now you have just two of the many similar laws/rules out of a few dozen that read the same.
 So now say that the muslims did not give the Nazi's the idea for the start of the final solution.


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## montelatici (Feb 6, 2015)

I have never witnessed the level of lies that Phoney puts out, on any other political forum. A pathological liar if I've ever seen one.


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## montelatici (Feb 6, 2015)

The pact of Umar that the Phoney always refers to was not even directed at the Jews, they are not even mentioned,  and it is not know if it applied to other religions besides Christianity. It applied many of the laws that Christians had for non-Christians when the Christians were in power, to the now defeated Christians.  So, please shut up Phoney, Jews do not have anything to do with the Pact of Umar.


"In the name of God, the Merciful, the Compassionate!

This is a writing to Umar from the Christians of such and such a city. When You [Muslims] marched against us [Christians],: we asked of you protection for ourselves, our posterity, our possessions, and our co-religionists; and we made this stipulation with you, that we will not erect in our city or the suburbs any new monastery, church, cell or hermitage; that we will not repair any of such buildings that may fall into ruins, or renew those that may be situated in the Muslim quarters of the town; that we will not refuse the Muslims entry into our churches either by night or by day; that we will open the gates wide to passengers and travellers; that we will receive any Muslim traveller into our houses and give him food and lodging for three nights; that we will not harbor any spy in our churches or houses, or conceal any enemy of the Muslims. [At least six of these laws were taken over from earlier Christian laws against infidels.]

That we will not teach our children the Qu'ran [some nationalist Arabs feared the infidels would ridicule the Qu'ran; others did not want infidels even to learn the language]; that we will not make a show of the Christian religion nor invite any one to embrace it; that we will not prevent any of our kinsmen from embracing Islam, if they so desire. That we will honor the Muslims and rise up in our assemblies when they wish to take their seats; that we will not imitate them in our dress, either in the cap, turban, sandals, or parting of the hair; that we will not make use of their expressions of speech, nor adopt their surnames [infidels must not use greetings and special phrases employed only by Muslims]; that we will not ride on saddles, or gird on swords, or take to ourselves arms or wear them, or engrave Arabic inscriptions on our rings; that we will not sell wine [forbidden to Muslims]; that we will shave the front of our heads; that we will keep to our own style of dress, wherever we may be; that we will wear girdles round our waists [infidels wore leather or cord girdles; Muslims, cloth and silk]."

That we will not display the cross upon our churches or display our crosses or our sacred books in the streets of the Muslims, or in their market-places; that we will strike the clappers in our churches lightly [wooden rattles or bells summoned the people to church or synagogue]; that we will not recite our services in a loud voice when a Muslim is present; that we will not carry Palm branches [on Palm Sunday] or our images in procession in the streets; that at the burial of our dead we will not chant loudly or carry lighted candles in the streets of the Muslims or their market places; that we will not take any slaves that have already been in the possession of Muslims, nor spy into their houses; and that we will not strike any Muslim.

All this we promise to observe, on behalf of ourselves and our co-religionists, and receive protection from you in exchange; and if we violate any of the conditions of this agreement, then we forfeit your protection and you are at liberty to treat us as enemies and rebels."


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## Phoenall (Feb 6, 2015)

Coyote said:


> Phoenall said:
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 Look at the links in the link I gave that point to the Koran and hadiths and what they say.   Or try this

The Genocide of Banu Qurayza - WikiIslam


*Analysis of Qur'anic Account[edit]*
The people of the scripture being referred to in the above verse, are the Jews of the Banu Qurayza tribe. The reason given for slaying them is their alleged support of the Meccans who came to fight the Muslims of Medina. A close look at the Qur'anic verses above confirms the Qur'an is mentioning this incident after its occurrence. And it is Allah accusing people of the scripture of supporting Meccans. Muslims usually justify the Banu Qurayza massacre based on these verses as they imply the tribe broke their treaty and joined the Meccans against Muslims. They argue that since breaking a treaty and fighting along with the Meccans was a treacherous act, the Jews of Banu Qurayza deserved total annihilation.

This allegation is totally baseless, and there were no treacherous acts on Banu Qurayza's part that could possibly justify the total annihilation of their tribe. They were being victimized for the incentives of Muhammad. This much will be made clear as we move along with the holy texts of Islam. And for this purpose it is necessary to start from where the Qur'an first mentions the battle of Khandaq (trench). The genocide in question occurred after this battle.

"O ye who believe Remember Allah's favor unto you when there came against you hosts, and we sent against them a great wind and hosts ye could not see. And Allah is ever Seer of what ye do" 
Qur'an 33:9
Allah is reminding the believers of the favors he bestowed upon them. "When there came a lot to attack them, he sent a wind to turn the foes away, thus saving the believers from destruction". The above verse implies that the enemies of Muhammad are being turned away by Allah. Doubt still remains whether the enemies were turned away before or after fighting a war. If we move with the Qur'an:

"When they came upon you from above you and from below you, and when eyes grew wild and hearts reached to the throats, and ye were imagining vain thoughts concerning Allah”
Qur'an 33:10
Here, Allah reveals the state of Muslims, when they had to face a huge Meccan army. They (Muslims) started to have doubts, believing a clash with such a vast army would certainly be devastating to them. Ibn Kathir clarifies in his Tafsir:

Ibn Jarir said: "Some of those who were with the Messenger of Allah , had doubts and thought that the outcome would be against the believers, and that Allah would allow that to happen."
Tafsir Ibn Kathir (Quran 33:10) - The Campaign of the Confederates (Al-Ahzab)
The Qur'anic verses in conjunction with the above interpretation reveal the fact that Muhammad and his army were not at all in any position to fight a war at Khandaq (Trench). Muhammad had heard of the strength of the Meccan army much earlier, so acting upon the advice of one of his companions, Salman the Persian, there were trenches dug all around them to prevent hostile Meccans from entering Muslim territory. The battle gained the name "the war of trench" due to this tactic employed by Muhammad. The Meccans were a huge army consisting of two tribes, namely the Quraish and Ghatafans. The very fact that Muhammad adopted such an extremely defensive stance in this fight proves the weakness of the Muslim army at the time, and the strength of their foes.

It is clear, the "war of Khandaq" was in fact a war that was never fought. Though they were huge in numbers and could have annihilated the entire population of Muslims at that time, the Meccan army had to halt at the trenches, being unable to find an entry route to the Muslim territory. Their only chance of reaching the Muslims was through the route of Banu Qurayza where Muhammad did not dig trenches, but ultimately, those who came to fight and win a war had to regress and return without success. Allah testifies in the Qur'an, he inflicted terror on the opposition by sending winds and shaking their settlements, so that they had to withdraw. Thus the Qur'an confirms the battle did not occur at all.

*Analysis of the Accounts in Hadiths[edit]*
After establishing through Qur'anic text that the war of Khandaq was never fought, it is necessary to investigate other authentic sources of Islam to discover what prompted Muhammad and his army (who had just salvaged their lives and pride without fighting a war) to turn their attentions towards the Banu Qurayza. We saw Allah himself attest to the fact he was the one who drove away the Meccans and helped Muslims escape an otherwise inevitable extermination. Let's now turn to Ibn Kathir to find out what happened next:

...the Messenger of Allah returned to Al-Madinah in triumph and the people put down their weapons. While the Messenger of Allah was washing off the dust of battle in the house of Umm Salamah, may Allah be pleased with her, Jibril, upon him be peace, came to him wearing a turban of brocade, riding on a mule on which was a cloth of silk brocade. He said, "Have you put down your weapons, O Messenger of Allah" He said, "Yes" He said, "But the angels have not put down their weapons. I have just now come back from pursuing the people." Then he said: "Allah, may He be blessed and exalted, commands you to get up and go to Banu Quraiza. According to another report, "What a fighter you are! Have you put down your weapons" He said, "Yes". He said, "But we have not put down our weapons yet, get up and go to these people." He said: "Where?" He said, "Banu Quraiza, for Allah has commanded me to shake them." So the Messenger of Allah got up immediately, and commanded the people to march towards Banu Quraiza, who were a few miles from Al-Madinah. This was after Salat Az-Zuhr. He said, No one among you should pray `Asr except at Banu Quraiza.
Tafsir Ibn Kathir - The Campaign against Banu Qurayzah
This account of Ibn Kathir is supported by sahih (authentic) hadiths:

Narrated 'Aisha: When Allah's Apostle returned on the day (of the battle) of Al-Khandaq (i.e. Trench), he put down his arms and took a bath. Then Gabriel whose head was covered with dust, came to him saying, "You have put down your arms! By Allah, I have not put down my arms yet." Allah's Apostle said, "Where (to go now)?" Gabriel said, "This way," pointing towards the tribe of Banu Qurayza. So Allah's Apostle went out towards them.
Sahih Bukhari 4:52:68
It is evident from this account, that Muhammad and his followers were relaxed and reclining after the withdrawal of Meccan troops. The campaign against the Banu Qurayza was not on their agenda until the angel Jibreel (Gabriel) appeared with Allah's orders. It also reveal the fact that the tribe of Banu Qurayza did not do anything atrocious to Muslims during the siege at Khandaq while the Meccan army were stranded at the trenches. Sources say the siege lasted for almost a month, but ultimately the Meccans departed without a fight. It was not possible for them to engage in battle, as the trenches were a new tactic that they had never expected from Muhammad's side. Still they waited for a green light from the Banu Qurayza stronghold, as that was the only route to enter in which they could reach the Muslims, a green light which never appeared. Eventually losing all hope of crossing and engaging in a full-scale war which would have resulted in wiping all Muslims from the face of the earth, the Meccans retreated.

Once the enemy had left, it was time for the Muslims to lay down their arms and relax, but not so for Muhammad. He felt it inadequate to regress without any gains. Whenever he fought a war prior to it, he and his followers emerged victorious and victory brought them booties in means of materials and human beings. Uhud was the only exception. This time, though they had survived, there was something still lacking; booty. The Meccan's resignation left them without any.

It was time for Jibreel to show up. Muhammad needed war booty to satisfy himself and his followers. A small fraction stationed in a castle nearby would make an easy target to acquire these means of satisfaction. So Jibreel appears with orders from Allah. "No Muhammad, you laid arms without meeting the objective." And the prime objective here is slaughter, then the acquisition of booty through this means.

If Banu Quraiza were in fact treacherous, Muhammad and the religion of Islam would have been buried in those trenches they had dug. That did not happen and Muhammad's fellow warriors did not feel any need to carry on. They were not aware of any alleged treachery, for this reason they reclined once the Meccans had left. All that changed, once Muhammad intervened with the aid of Jibreel and Allah. This proves the alleged treason is nothing but a made up excuse or a pretext Muslims use in our period to justify genocide.

Later, the warriors of Islam besieged a weak tribe for almost a month until they surrendered; _Not_ fighting, but enduring. The siege ended with the unconditional surrender of Jews. Now the fate of the surrendered tribe lay in the hands of Muhammad.

To recount what happened to the then subjugated tribe who were on their knees to Muhammad and his fellow warriors, let us see the details as provided in Muhammad Husayn Haykal's _The life of Muhammad_:

Banu Qurayzah sent word to Muhammad proposing to evacuate their territory and remove themselves to Adhri'at, but Muhammad rejected their proposal and insisted on their abiding by his judgment. They sent to al-Aws pleading that they should help them as al-Khazraj had helped their client Jews before them. A group of al-Aws tribesmen sought Muhammad and pleaded with him to accept from their allies a similar arrangement to that which he accepted from the allies of al-Khazraj. Muhammad asked, "O men of al-Aws, would you be happy if we allowed one of your men to arbitrate the case?" When they agreed, he asked them to nominate whomsoever they wished. This was communicated to the Jews, and the latter, unmindful of the fate that was lying in store for them, nominated Sa'd ibn Mu'adh. Sa'd was a reputable man of al-Aws tribe, respected for his sound judgment. Previously, Sa'd was the first one to approach the Jews, to warn them adequately, even to predict to them that they might have to face Muhammad one day. He had witnessed the Jews cursing Muhammad and the Muslims. After his nomination and acceptance as arbitrator, Sa'd sought guarantees from the two parties that they would abide by his judgment. After these guarantees were secured, he commanded that Banu Qurayzah come out of their fortress and surrender their armour. Sa'd then pronounced his verdict that the fighting men be put to the sword, that their wealth be confiscated as war booty, and that the women and the children be taken as captives. When Muhammad heard the verdict, he said: "By Him Who dominates my soul, God is pleased with your judgment, 0 Sa'd; and so are the believers. You have surely done your duty." He then proceeded to Madinah where he commanded a large grave to be dug for the Jewish fighters brought in to be killed and buried.[1]
Muhammad Husayn Haykal - The Life of Muhammad. (p. 337)
Ibn Ishaq describes the killing of the Banu Qurayza men as follows:

Then they surrendered, and the apostle confined them in Medina in the quarter of d. al-Harith, a woman of B. al-Najjar. Then the apostle went out to the market of Medina (which is still its market today) and dug trenches in it. Then he sent for them and struck off their heads in those trenches as they were brought out to him in batches. Among them was the enemy of Allah Huyayy b. Akhtab and Ka`b b. Asad their chief. There were 600 or 700 in all, though some put the figure as high as 800 or 900. As they were being taken out in batches to the apostle they asked Ka`b what he thought would be done with them. He replied, 'Will you never understand? Don't you see that the summoner never stops and those who are taken away do not return? By Allah it is death!' This went on until the apostle made an end of them. Huyayy was brought out wearing a flowered robe in which he had made holes about the size of the finger-tips in every part so that it should not be taken from him as spoil, with his hands bound to his neck by a rope. When he saw the apostle he said, 'By God, I do not blame myself for opposing you, but he who forsakes God will be forsaken.' Then he went to the men and said, 'God's command is right. A book and a decree, and massacre have been written against the Sons of Israel.' Then he sat down and his head was struck off.[2][3][4]
Ibn Ishaq
According to Ibn Kathir:

Then the Messenger of Allah commanded that ditches should be dug, so they were dug in the earth, and they were brought tied by their shoulders, and were beheaded. There were between seven hundred and eight hundred of them. The children who had not yet reached adolescence and the women were taken prisoner, and their wealth was seized.
Tafsir Ibn Kathir - The Campaign against Banu Qurayzah
It is worth mentioning here, not all were lucky enough to be beheaded among Banu Quraiza. Those whose lives were spared had a worse fate awaiting them. Again from Haykal:

The Prophet divided the properties, women, and children of Banu Quraiza among the Muslims after he had separated one-fifth for public purposes. Each man of the cavalry received two shares, one for himself and one for his horse. On that day, the Muslim force included thirty-six cavalrymen. Sa'd ibn Zayd al Ansari sent a number of Banu Qurayza captives to Najd where he exchanged them for horses and armour in order to increase Muslim military power.[5]
Muhammad Husayn Haykal - The Life of Muhammad. (p. 338)
These captives who were sold for horses were the women of the Banu Qurayza tribe. Ibn Ishaq confirms this:

Then the apostle sent for Sa'd bin Zayd al-Ansari brother of bin Abdul-Ashhal with some of the captive women of Banu Qurayza to Najd and he sold them for horses and weapons.
Ibn Ishaq: 693
*Muslim Apologetics[edit]*
The most common Muslim argument is that Muhammad was dealing with treachery and he had taken the maximum punitive actions against it. But this alleged treachery on Banu Qurayza’s part is very hard to accept for a rational mind. To be treacherous, Banu Qurayza must have joined the confederate army who had come to attack the Muslims. If that were the case (had Banu Qurayza joined the Meccan army) it would have ended in the total eradication of Muslims. But Abu Sufyan's (the Meccan chief’s) words before retreating, testifies Banu Qurayza did not ally with the Meccans in a war against the Muslims. To quote Ibn Ishaq:

Then Abu Sufyan said: “O Quraish, we are not in a permanent camp; the horses and camels are dying; the Banu Qurayza have broken their word to us and we have heard disquieting reports of them. You can see the violence of the wind which leaves us neither cooking-pots, or fire, nor tents to count on. Be off, for I am going” 
Ibn Ishaq: 683
Besides, Muhammad nor his followers accused the Banu Qurayza of being treasonous. After Meccans left, the prophet had to bring Jibreel down to 'testify' that any such thing had taken place, before they even considered besieging the tribe. This attests to the fact there was no treason from the tribe that warranted their total annihilation. The account given in the Qur'an of the Banu Qurayza siding with the Muslims’ enemy at Khandaq is _after_ the incidents occurred, not during it. Muhammad would have felt it necessary to give a reason to justify the annihilation of an entire Jewish tribe, so he came up with holy verses later.

Another argument often brought up by Muslims is “Banu Qurayza were given the choice of deciding their judge”. They argue Banu Qurayza were massacred because of Sad bin Muadh, the arbitrator they agreed to. So Muhammad is innocent of shedding their blood.

This argument is not without its problems:

First of all, it is not clear from Islamic sources whether it were Banu Qurayza or their allies, the tribe of “Aws”, who agreed to Sad bin Muadh being the judge. The sahih hadith in Bukhari below points to this fact:

Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri: Some people (i.e. the Jews of Bani bin quraiza) agreed to accept the verdict of Sad bin Muadh so the Prophet sent for him (i.e. Sad bin Muadh). He came riding a donkey, and when he approached the Mosque, the Prophet said, "Get up for the best amongst you." or said, "Get up for your chief." Then the Prophet said, "O Sad! These people have agreed to accept your verdict." Sad said, "I judge that their warriors should be killed and their children and women should be taken as captives." The Prophet said, "You have given a judgment similar to Allah's Judgment (or the King's judgment)."
Sahih Bukhari 5:58:148
In the USC translation, "Jews of Banu Qurayza" has been given in brackets when mentioning the people agreed to accept Sad bin Muadh’s verdict. But the original Sahih Bukhari hadith in Arabic does not have this. So, it is most probably the tribe of Aus were who agreed to accept the verdict of Sa’d, not the Banu Qurayza. It does not make any sense for a subjugated people like the Banu Qurayza who were on their knees at the time to be given a choice in selecting their judge. So, the evidence we have available is against the Muslims claim that the surrendered Banu Qurayza tribe were given a choice in the case of adjudicator.

Moreover, even if one accepts the Muslim arguments that the Banu Qurayza were given a choice in selecting their judge, it does not let Muhammad off the hook. A careful analysis of the sahih hadiths on this account reveals Saad bin Muadh was just echoing Muhammad’s intention as his verdict. Soon after Saad bin Muad gave his verdict, Muhammad rushed to applaud him stating Saad's judged was in accordance with the judgement of Allah. Again from Sahih Bukhari:

Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri: The people of (Banu) quraiza agreed to accept the verdict of Sad bin Muadh. So the Prophet sent for Saad, and the latter came (riding) a donkey and when he approached the Mosque, the Prophet said to the Ansar, "Get up for your chief or for the best among you." Then the Prophet said (to Sad)." These have agreed to accept your verdict." Sad said, "Kill their (men) warriors and take their offspring as captives, "On that the Prophet said, "You have judged according to Allah's Judgment," or said, "according to the King's judgment."
Sahih Bukhari 5:59:447
Muhammad always intended to massacre the tribe, ever before Saad bin Muadh had come into the picture. He had this plan in mind when besieging the tribe. He sent an envoy (Abu Lubaba) to the Banu Quraiza fort during the siege. Below is the account of this incident as mentioned in Sirah Ibn Ishaq:

Apostle sent him (Abu Lubaba) to them (Banu Quraiza), and when they saw him they got up to meet him. The women and children went up to him weeping in his face, and he felt sorry for them. They said, ‘Oh Abu Lubaba, do you think that we should submit to Muhammad's judgement? He said ‘yes' and pointed with his hand to his throat signifying slaughter.
Ibn Ishaq: 686
Remember, this incident occurred during the siege and Saad bin Muadh became involved in this affair after the siege. Here we see Muhammad's envoy revealing Muhammad's intentions to the Banu Quraiza. Again, we see a remorseful Abu Lubaba who later felt contrite for revealing Muhammad's plan to the besieged tribe. This man soon left the place and tied himself to one of the pillars in the mosque. Again, it is recorded in Ibn Ishaq:

Then he (Abu Lubaba) left them and did not go to the apostle but bound himself to one of the pillars in the mosque saying ‘I will not leave this place until god forgives me for what I have done' and he promised god that he would never go to Banu Quraiza and would never be seen in a town in which he had betrayed god and his apostle 
Ibn Ishaq: 686
If all that befell the Banu Qurayza were solely the fault of Saad bin Muaad, how does one deal with the account given by Ibn Ishaq? It reveals Muhammad besieged the Banu Qurayza with the intention of ethnically cleansing them.

Another favorite argument is the Jews of Banu Qurayza were put to death according to "their own laws" within the Torah. Saad bin Muadh's verdict matches that which is found in Deuteronomy 20:10-18 thus, Islam nor the Muslims can be blamed for it.

In reality, Deuteronomy 20:10-18 is not the "law of the Torah." It is a specific direction from the Judeo-Christian God for a specific program of conquest. No longer relevant, as the Promised land mentioned in the Torah had been settled. It has nothing to do with "treason," or the treatment of treasonous allies. So if Muhammad or Saad bin Muaad had indeed applied these laws to the tribe, it was the wrong application of the wrong law to the wrong situation. Being the prophet of Allah, Muhammad could have easily annulled such a faulty application of the wrong laws.

Besides, this argument of Muslims begs the questions:


Why are the Muslims now accepting the judgment of Deuteronomy [scripture which they allege is corrupt] as righteous and just when on other occasions they attack this as being a cruel and harsh command, and a clear example of genocide?
The Islamic sources say that Muhammad did not only have the fighting men killed, such as the leaders of Banu Quraiza, but also their young men who had nothing whatsoever to do with the decisions of their leaders/elders, were massacred. Why the unnecessary slaughter of innocents?
Some Muslims claim only those who were able to fight among the tribe of Banu Quraiza were killed. According to their own sources, this is not true. How did Muhammad determine who from among the Jews were capable of fighting? See it in their sources:

The Messenger of God had commanded that all of them who had reached puberty should be killed.[6]
Al-Tabari: Vol 8. (p. 38)
Another source tells us exactly how it was determined, whether a person had reached puberty or not:

Narrated Atiyyah al-Qurazi: I was among the captives of Banu Qurayzah. They (the Companions) examined us, and those who had begun to grow hair (pubes) were killed, and those who had not were not killed. I was among those who had not grown hair.
Abu Dawud 38:4390
As has been shown, Muhammad testified that Saad's verdict was in proportion to the laws of Allah. Therefore Muslims should stop attacking the Torah and instead focus on Muhammad who attested the verdict of Saad with applause.

As a final point, it would be interesting to learn how Muhammad dealt with the Jews of Banu Qurayza prior to besieging them. Let the sources speak for themselves:

"When the apostle approached their forts he (Muhammad) said: "You brothers of monkeys.., has god disgraced you and brought his vengeance upon you?" Banu Qurayza replied: "O Abul Qasim (Muhammad), you are not a barbarous person" 
Ibn Ishaq: 684
Again from the sahih collections:

Narrated Al-Bara: "On the day of Qurayza’s (besiege), Allah's Apostle said to Hassan bin Thabit, 'Abuse them (with your poems), and Gabriel is with you" 
Sahih Bukhari 5:59:449
How appropriate is it for a religious leader to abuse helpless people with words like "brothers of monkeys" and to incite his followers to do as he did? Not to mention, he traded these insults prior to besieging them.


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## Phoenall (Feb 6, 2015)

montelatici said:


> The pact of Umar that the Phoney always refers to was not even directed at the Jews, they are not even mentioned,  and it is not know if it applied to other religions besides Christianity. It applied many of the laws that Christians had for non-Christians when the Christians were in power, to the now defeated Christians.  So, please shut up Phoney, Jews do not have anything to do with the Pact of Umar.
> 
> 
> "In the name of God, the Merciful, the Compassionate!
> ...







 WRONG AGAIN Abdul as this shows

Pact of Umar - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

*Pact of Umar* (also known as: *Covenant of Umar*, *Treaty of Umar* or *The laws of Umar*; Arabic: "شروط عمر"‎ or "عهد عمر" or "عقد عمر"; Persian:"قوانین عمر"), is an apocryphal treaty between the Muslims and Christians of Syria that later gained a canonical status in Islamic jurisprudence,* for all of the non-Muslim (**dhimmis**) residents under the **Muslim empire**.


 Prohibition of Christians and Jews, to raise their voices at prayers time.

 Obligation to identify non-Muslims as such by clipping the heads forelocks and by always dress in the same manner, wherever they go, with binding the zunar (a kind of belt) around the waists. Christians to wear blue belts or turbans, Jews to wear yellow belts or turbans, Zoroastrians to wear black belts or turbans, and Samaritans to wear red belts or turbans.

*


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## montelatici (Feb 6, 2015)

I just posted the Pact of Umar in its totality translated from Arabic. You post from one of the most anti-Muslim site on the internet. It's like if I posted material from Stormfront to make a point.  What in the devil is the matter with you?


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## montelatici (Feb 6, 2015)

Phoenall said:


> montelatici said:
> 
> 
> > The pact of Umar that the Phoney always refers to was not even directed at the Jews, they are not even mentioned,  and it is not know if it applied to other religions besides Christianity. It applied many of the laws that Christians had for non-Christians when the Christians were in power, to the now defeated Christians.  So, please shut up Phoney, Jews do not have anything to do with the Pact of Umar.
> ...



I posted fact a translation of a source document, a direct translation of the Pact, from Fordham University.  You post NONSENSE from Wikipedia that tomorrow could be re-written.  Do you think you have made some kind of point? Grow up you little wanker.


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## fanger (Feb 6, 2015)

Where does Mohammed order them to bow down before him as a God?


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## Coyote (Feb 6, 2015)

Phoenall said:


> Coyote said:
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To reiterate:  one, can you not find some unbiased source? (this is a frequent demand you yourself make) and two, I'm not going to read through the whole damn thing - I skimmed it and I can not find where Mohammed demands they worship him as a God.


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## fanger (Feb 7, 2015)

abu afak said:


> fanger said:
> 
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> > Where does Mohammed order them to bow down before him as a God?
> ...


yet Phoney insists he did


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## Challenger (Feb 7, 2015)

Phoenall said:


> Coyote said:
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OK. In the Codex Theodosianus, which pre-dates Islam by about 250 years, Jewish people were excluded from certain governmental posts in 404CE.  Jewish people were barred from the civil service and the Military in 418CE. In 425CE they were excluded from all remaining public offices. Sound familliar? A case could equally be made that the Nazis got their ideas from Roman Civil and Ecclesiastical law, which formed the basis of Western civilisation, rather than some obscure (in the West) pact that may or may not be a complete fabrication anyway.

Which is more likely, Europeans basing their ideas on European laws and  religious traditions, or Europeans dispensing with those cultural traditions in favour of an Eastern religion which Eurpoeans traditionaly feared and were taught to hate?


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## Phoenall (Feb 7, 2015)

montelatici said:


> Phoenall said:
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 I see you have lost as you are resorting to personal insults and profanities.    Typical ISLAMONAZI behaviour when they are being shown up


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## Phoenall (Feb 7, 2015)

fanger said:


> Where does Mohammed order them to bow down before him as a God?





 See the reply to Coyote


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## SAYIT (Feb 7, 2015)

montelatici said:


> SAYIT said:
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Neither of which he discussed but rather _his_ perception of Coyote's biased posts ... a perfectly legit subject when she engages in a thread as a poster. Frankly you are beating a dead camel but that seems about the limit of your capabilities.


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## fanger (Feb 7, 2015)

Phoenall said:


> fanger said:
> 
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> > Where does Mohammed order them to bow down before him as a God?
> ...


I read it, and the link, there is no mention of  "*The hadiths tell of Mohamed sending a messenger to the tribe demanding they accept islam and bow down before him as they would god" you made that bit up and are still digging a deeper hole*


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## Phoenall (Feb 7, 2015)

fanger said:


> Phoenall said:
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 Try again as the link I posted had the section highlighted so that everyone could see it.


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## fanger (Feb 7, 2015)

Phoenall said:


> fanger said:
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Then it should be easy for you to copy/paste the part, as you insist on claiming "*Mohammed ordered them to bow down before him as a God"?

I claim you made it up, prove me wrong*


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## fanger (Feb 8, 2015)

Phoney Lied, And was called out on it


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## Challenger (Feb 8, 2015)

fanger said:


> Phoney Lied, And was called out on it



Just more baloney from Phoney, nothing new.


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## Phoenall (Feb 8, 2015)

fanger said:


> Phoney Lied, And was called out on it






 NOPE I gave the link, not my fault you don't want to read it.


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## Phoenall (Feb 8, 2015)

Challenger said:


> fanger said:
> 
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> > Phoney Lied, And was called out on it
> ...






 Still waiting for over 20 links from you to prove your claims, will I get them any time soon do you think ?


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## fanger (Feb 8, 2015)

Phoenall said:


> fanger said:
> 
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> > Phoney Lied, And was called out on it
> ...


No you didn't give a valid link to your claim that "*Mohammed ordered them to bow down before him as a God" *


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## aris2chat (Feb 8, 2015)

fanger said:


> Phoenall said:
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I think Phoen was thinking about Mohammed Ali and the people from El-Kahera.

There is also a story of Joseph in the quran about the brothers bowing down before him.

There is also the stories of the jews not taking Mohammed as their prophet.


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## montelatici (Feb 8, 2015)

I think Phoney was, in fact, thinking about Mohammed Ali, formerly known as Cassius Clay.


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## Phoenall (Feb 9, 2015)

fanger said:


> Phoenall said:
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 Told you not my fault you missed it, I posted it and it could still be there. If I have time in my busy life I might take a look in my archives and repost the offending link again.


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## Phoenall (Feb 9, 2015)

montelatici said:


> I think Phoney was, in fact, thinking about Mohammed Ali, formerly known as Cassius Clay.





Who took his Islamic name when he converted from mohammed the false prophet.    I see you were named after him as well Abdullah    or should that be slave of allah ?


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## fanger (Feb 9, 2015)

Phoenall said:


> fanger said:
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I doubt you will.


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## fanger (Feb 12, 2015)

fanger said:


> Phoenall said:
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Still no link?


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## Phoenall (Feb 13, 2015)

fanger said:


> fanger said:
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 I gave more links in one day than you have given in 1 year so don't come that sunshine. The link was given


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## fanger (Feb 13, 2015)

shouldn't be too hard to find and post one then should it,tubby


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## Mindful (Mar 4, 2015)

Challenger said:


> Mindful said:
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Getting under your skin am I?


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## Mindful (Mar 4, 2015)

fanger said:


> shouldn't be too hard to find and post one then should it,tubby



 Do stop letting off wind. You're stinking up the place.


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## Challenger (Mar 4, 2015)

Mindful said:


> Challenger said:
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Not at all, just stating fact.


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## Mindful (Mar 4, 2015)

Challenger said:


> Mindful said:
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Facts? You even know what they are?


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## Challenger (Mar 4, 2015)

Mindful said:


> Challenger said:
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Oh yes, any data that can be assessed objectively and supported by at least two reliable sources and of course, anything not published by the Israeli government or any of their Zionist fellow travellers and useful idiots.


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## Mindful (Mar 4, 2015)

Challenger said:


> Mindful said:
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Heard it all before. Word for word.


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## Phoenall (Mar 4, 2015)

Challenger said:


> Mindful said:
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 In other words anything from an Islamic source, white supremacist source or ultra left wing source then. Figures you would go for them 3 as they bolster your islamonazi POV


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## Phoenall (Mar 4, 2015)

Mindful said:


> Challenger said:
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 Yep it went the rounds in the 1930's and before that at the turn of the century. Each time it resulted in the mass murder of Jews by socialists because they were religious and could not be forced into toeing the line. I wonder if they have another crystalnacht planned in the near future, and what they will call the next massacre. We have had the Holodomor, the Holocaust and next the extinction of the Jews possibly.......................


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## Mindful (Mar 4, 2015)

Phoenall said:


> Mindful said:
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They all say exactly the same rhetoric. Like it's a script.


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## fanger (Mar 4, 2015)

Phoenall said:


> Mindful said:
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*Strange you mention the Holodomor, Mass Murder committed by Jews

The Jewish Bolshevik regime had begun murdering their way through ethnic Europeans as early as the 1920’s. Initially these crimes were concealed behind the Jewish Bolshevik construct of the ‘Soviet Union’ but with a Jewish victory in 1945 a new paradigm was concocted with the German Nation as the scapegoat. The source of the Big Lie can be traced back to the Jewish architect of ethnic European Genocide Vladimir Lenin who pronounced that “a lie told often enough becomes the truth”. While the Jewish Bolshevik genocide of ethnic Europeans is concealed, for the 70 years since WWII ethnic Europe has been saturated with propaganda regarding a Jewish ‘Holocaust’.HolodomorInfo.com The Jewish Ethnic Cleansing Of Europeans



Jewish group objects to ‘Great Famine’ case
 A Jewish group in Ukraine is objecting to a criminal case brought over the "Great Famine" committed in the 1930s.

The nation’s security service is pressing the case against a list of former Soviet officials accused of committing the Holodomor, which caused the deaths of millions in Ukraine in 1932-33. Most of the names on the list were Jewish.

Ukrainian lawmaker Aleksandr Feldman, leader of the Ukrainian Jewish Committee, said last week that it was "a farce" to press the case.

“All organizers of the Great Famine are dead," he said.

Last July, the Ukrainian Security Service released a list of high-ranking Soviet state and Communist Party officials — as well as officials from NKVD, the police force of Soviet Russia — that essentially blamed Jews and Latvians responsible for perpetrating and executing the famine because most of the names on the list were Jewish.
Jewish group objects to Great Famine case Jewish Telegraphic Agency


*


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## Phoenall (Mar 4, 2015)

fanger said:


> Phoenall said:
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get it right ex Jews who sold their souls to the devil. They turned into European forms of the muslims, just not as violent or as evil


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## aris2chat (Mar 4, 2015)

fanger said:


> Phoenall said:
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Just bolshevism, without any need to imply jews were some how a separate objective.
All western/europeans were targeted.
You are implying that judaism was somehow a motivation rather than russian nationalism.  What of christian bolshevism?  islamic bolshevism?  Bolshevism was anti every religion.  To single out that who were born or used to practise judaism as different in some way is racist bigotry.
Jews were less than 5% of the population, most were russian orthodox.  Why do you treat the former jews as more responsible than any other former religion?

More anti-semitic hatred


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## fanger (Mar 4, 2015)

How many people did these  "not as violent or as evil, Ex Jews" Kill, 40 million?


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## fanger (Mar 4, 2015)

aris2chat said:


> fanger said:
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Were they semites, or just thugs who thought they were superior to other humans?


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## aris2chat (Mar 4, 2015)

fanger said:


> How many people did these  "not as violent or as evil, Ex Jews" Kill, 40 million?



Bolsheviks/atheists, of all former religions killed millions.  Stop trying to single out those of jewish decent as any different because the came from a jewish heritage.  They were atheists, without religion, the state became their religion.  Judaism, Islam or ROC had nothing to do with the motivating the action that the state took except to eliminate all religion, all fealty or authority other than the state.


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## fanger (Mar 4, 2015)

They started out as Jews, and I suggest thats where they got the mentality that they were superior to the common folk


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## aris2chat (Mar 4, 2015)

fanger said:


> aris2chat said:
> 
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> > fanger said:
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Did their blood have something to do with their belief in a single united state of russia?  How did their skin, hair, or features make them participate in a political party?

How was their heritage any more or less responsible for what the bolsheviks as a whole did or thought?  Why are you not using the same criteria of blame for ROC or muslims that also were bolsheviks?  You are trying to blame 5% of the population, most of which suffered death and persecution by the bolsheviks, as responsible for the actions of everyone in the party?
If 5% had been hindu, would you be blaming them?  Buddhists and other eastern religions at the time?
Why are you so filled with anger and hate against modern days jews?  Why are you trying to single out bolsheviks as somehow a jewish idea or their behavior having anything to do with today?


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## teddyearp (Mar 4, 2015)

Coyote said:


> That doesn't prove anything.  You claimed or implied that the Palestinians give the idea of Jewish genocide to the Germans.  They did not.  Neither did Muslims.



You are correct.  The 'Palestinians' couldn't have given the Nazi's any ideas about anything because they didn't exist until 1960, well after the Nazi's were done.  Now the Muslim Mufti of Jerusalem just liked Hitler's ideas, on the other hand . . .


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## aris2chat (Mar 4, 2015)

fanger said:


> They started out as Jews, and I suggest thats where they got the mentality that they were superior to the common folk



 Communism was about all men being equal not superior.


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## fanger (Mar 4, 2015)

Its a jewish thing


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## aris2chat (Mar 4, 2015)

fanger said:


> Its a jewish thing



The bolsheviks rejected religion.  It is false accusation to attach judaism as to blame.  If the vast majority were ROC heritiage, why are you not blaming them instead????
You are just propagating anti-semitism for something that had no basis in religion, let alone judiasm. 
The state, communism, replaced religion.
You want to discuss the pros and cons of communism, do so without religious blame and on the appropriate forum.


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## fanger (Mar 4, 2015)

They learned their hatred and inhumanity as young jews still do today


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## teddyearp (Mar 4, 2015)

fanger said:


> They learned their hatred and inhumanity as young jews still do today


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## aris2chat (Mar 4, 2015)

teddyearp said:


> fanger said:
> 
> 
> > They learned their hatred and inhumanity as young jews still do today



Finger is the only one that seems to have learned hate and inhumanity


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## Challenger (Mar 5, 2015)

Mindful said:


> Challenger said:
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Must be accurate then.


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## Challenger (Mar 5, 2015)

Phoenall said:


> Challenger said:
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No, from any reputable academic source will do. the Two books I mentioned earlier were both written by Israeli academics, (in fact most of the books I've read on this are written by Israeli historians) for example. I tend to avoid "supremacist" sources; White, Black, Jewish, Zionist, etc. They're as bad as each other and generally spout garbage, although occasionally one finds a few gems of information that can be followed up and researched elsewhere for corroboration.


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## Challenger (Mar 5, 2015)

aris2chat said:


> fanger said:
> 
> 
> > How many people did these  "not as violent or as evil, Ex Jews" Kill, 40 million?
> ...



Bolsheviks espoused atheism, certainly that's true, but centuries of indoctrination and prejudice could not be wiped away immediatly you became a Bolshevik, as is evidenced by the huge resurgence of religion in Russia immediately after the collapse of the Soviet Union. Jewish and Christian Russians all used the Revolution to settle old scores and grudges against each other.


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## Challenger (Mar 5, 2015)

teddyearp said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > That doesn't prove anything.  You claimed or implied that the Palestinians give the idea of Jewish genocide to the Germans.  They did not.  Neither did Muslims.
> ...



Interesting. You disagree with Rude-eee who claims it was all the Mufti's idea. Palestinians existed for centuries as a people; they were the inhabitants of Palestine; whatever religion and culture they espoused. The Palestinian National Identity was "declared" in 1964, but that doesn't mean Palestinians didn't exist before then.


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## Mindful (Mar 5, 2015)

Palestinians existed for centuries? 

Surely you jest?

Yasser Arafat invented them. And he was an Egyptian.


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## Phoenall (Mar 5, 2015)

fanger said:


> How many people did these  "not as violent or as evil, Ex Jews" Kill, 40 million?






So no other group was involved is that what you are saying. That a tiny handful of ex Jews took on the Russian army and defeated them so soundly that less than 0.1% of the Russian population held the other 99.9% in the palms of their hands. Now how many people did the whole of the Russian revolutionary kill, this includes muslims, Christians, Atheists, agnostics, humanists and any other religious group you want to count.

So how about being less NAZI ANTI SEMITIC and more honest, or is that against your religion ?


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## Phoenall (Mar 5, 2015)

fanger said:


> aris2chat said:
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 Do you mean like muslims who have mass murdered more people in the last century than any other group ?


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## Phoenall (Mar 5, 2015)

Challenger said:


> teddyearp said:
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Considering that Palestine did not exist before the Roman invasion, and the only Palestinians were the Jews until the arab muslims stole the name to give their terrorism an identity. So you see history tells us that the only Palestinians were the Jews right up until the arab muslims stole the name on the commands of their Russian enablers.


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## Humanity (Mar 5, 2015)

Phoenall said:


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That has to be THE most incredible change in history I have EVER seen!!!

Can you please provide a link that shows that "the only Palestinians were the Jews right up until the arab muslims"


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## Challenger (Mar 5, 2015)

Mindful said:


> Palestinians existed for centuries?
> 
> Surely you jest?
> 
> Yasser Arafat invented them. And he was an Egyptian.



Following your logic, the British didn't exist before 1707 and Americans didn't exist before 1776.


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## Challenger (Mar 5, 2015)

Phoenall said:


> Challenger said:
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Herodotus would disagree with you, for one.


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## Mindful (Mar 5, 2015)

Challenger said:


> Mindful said:
> 
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> > Palestinians existed for centuries?
> ...



Up the Celts!


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## Phoenall (Mar 5, 2015)

Humanity said:


> Phoenall said:
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Who was in Israel first the Jews or Palestinians


 Arab refugees began identifying themselves as part of a Palestinian people in 1967, two decades after the establishment of the modern State of Israel.

3. Since the Jewish conquest in 1272 B.C.E, the Jews had dominion over the land for one thousand years with a continuous presence in the land for the past 3,300 years.
4.The only Arab domination since the conquest in 635 C.E. lasted no more than 22 years.
5. For over 3,300 years, Jerusalem has been the Jewish capital. Jerusalem has never been the capital of any Arab or Muslim entity. Even when the Jordanians occupied Jerusalem, they never sought to make it their capital, and Arab leaders did not come to visit.
6. Jerusalem is mentioned over 700 hundred times in Bible. Jerusalem is not mentioned once in the Koran.


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## Phoenall (Mar 5, 2015)

Challenger said:


> Mindful said:
> 
> 
> > Palestinians existed for centuries?
> ...






 The Britain's or Bretons existed since medieval times. The Americans have no written history so it is not Known how long they have lived there. But modern American colonists arrives in the 18C


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## Humanity (Mar 5, 2015)

Phoenall said:


> Humanity said:
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Can you see what the problem here is Phoney....

You are saying that history started when the Jews invaded...

That is not the case is it...


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## Challenger (Mar 5, 2015)

Mindful said:


> Challenger said:
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I agree.


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## Challenger (Mar 5, 2015)

Phoenall said:


> Challenger said:
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Seems you are clearly not from these Islands as your knowledge of our history is next to non-existant. Perhaps that's to be expected from a Zionist Useful Idiot.


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## Mindful (Mar 5, 2015)

Challenger said:


> Phoenall said:
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Does it matter where I'm from?  Seems you're only interested in being personal.


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## Phoenall (Mar 5, 2015)

Humanity said:


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 Taking my post out of context again because it destroys your POV.

It shows that prior to 1960 only the Jews were called Palestinians, and that the arab muslims have no legal claim to Palestine and no religious claim to any of the holy sites in Israel, West bank or gaza.

It also shows that you are clutching at straws and failing


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## Phoenall (Mar 5, 2015)

Challenger said:


> Phoenall said:
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 I can trace my ancestry back hundreds of Years in the UK, can you.

 STILL WAITING FOR YOUR PERSONAL DEFINITION OF WHAT YOU MEAN BY ZIONIST ?


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## Challenger (Mar 5, 2015)

Phoenall said:


> Humanity said:
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3. Except for the fact that there's no concrete evidence for a "Jewish Conquest". Shame really, I used to so enjoy pointing out that the Israelites/Hebrews/Whateverites committed the first recorded genocide in history. Judaism was only one of many competing religions in that era, the ruling dynasties may have followed Judaism, like the Khazars later on, but everyone else made up their own minds which God/Godess to worship. As for a continuous presence, well Judeans have always been there, that's true, but not all of them followed Judaism, pre-or post Babylonian exile. 
4. 464 years by my count.
5. Jerusalem was home and principle centre of the Temple cult of Judean monotheists. It's status as a "Jewish" capital city is debatable, especially after the Babylonians trashed the place, and again when the Romans did likewise. Caesarea was the capital of Roman Judea, for example.
6. Isn't that because Arabs call it "al-Quds" and not "Jerusalem" (just couldn't resist )


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## Challenger (Mar 5, 2015)

Phoenall said:


> Challenger said:
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				Phoenall said:
			
		

> I can trace my ancestry back hundreds of Years in the UK, can you.



Changing your story again? Last time you could trace it back to before the Norman invasion...



			
				Phoenall said:
			
		

> STILL WAITING FOR YOUR PERSONAL DEFINITION OF WHAT YOU MEAN BY ZIONIST?



Oh, Phoney, Phoney, you still haven't found it after all this time, wow are you inept. Ask your "mini-me" pal "Abu Af*ckwit" he found it in no time.


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## Humanity (Mar 5, 2015)

Phoenall said:


> Humanity said:
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OOPPSSS PHONEY BACKPEDALING AGAIN!

You ridiculous, sweeping statements make you look like the fool you are Phoney!

Or is it those.... Voices in your head telling you stuff again!


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## Mindful (Mar 5, 2015)

Humanity said:


> Phoenall said:
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It's getting intellectual now.


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## Humanity (Mar 5, 2015)

Mindful said:


> Humanity said:
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Not whilst Phoney is around it's not!


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## Mindful (Mar 5, 2015)

Humanity said:


> Mindful said:
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That's your opinion. You can keep it.


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## Humanity (Mar 5, 2015)

Mindful said:


> Humanity said:
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Yes it is...

How can you get intellectual with someone who fails to backup a single word he says and manages to contradict himself every other post?

Just sayin'...


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## Mindful (Mar 5, 2015)

Humanity said:


> Mindful said:
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Are you looking to get the thread pulled, with your clownish antics?


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## Humanity (Mar 5, 2015)

Mindful said:


> Humanity said:
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Looking at trying to get proper information, have a proper conversation with some people is impossible...

Put up or shut up...

As the Zone 2 rules say... Make your point, *back it up*...

It's not rocket science is it...


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## Mindful (Mar 5, 2015)

Humanity said:


> Mindful said:
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You don't dictate what people say.

 Name calling is not making a point.


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## Humanity (Mar 5, 2015)

Mindful said:


> Humanity said:
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Did I say that I did?

Forum rules dude... As the Zone 2 rules say... Make your point, *back it up*...


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## Phoenall (Mar 5, 2015)

Challenger said:


> Phoenall said:
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 How about non partisan links to 3, 4, 5, and a link showing that al quds is mentioned in the Koran as one of islams holy places. The evidence from Islamic sources points to it being a lie as the mosque that Mohamed allegedly travelled to did not exist until 30 years after his death.


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## Phoenall (Mar 5, 2015)

Humanity said:


> Mindful said:
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I made my point and then backed it up.  Now you are trying to alter the rules to suit your personal agenda and getting all upset because we wont play your little game. read zone 2 rules on flaming and mend your ways.


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## Humanity (Mar 5, 2015)

Phoenall said:


> Humanity said:
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Backed it up with what exactly Phoney?

More BS?

Where's your supporting link?


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## Phoenall (Mar 5, 2015)

Humanity said:


> Phoenall said:
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 Instead of flaming why don't you take a look


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## Challenger (Mar 5, 2015)

Phoenall said:


> Humanity said:
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What a good idea, Phoney, why don't *you* take a look to find my definition of Zionism..


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## Challenger (Mar 5, 2015)

Phoenall said:


> Challenger said:
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Oh, for goodness sake, go read a book....this one is a good starter; written by internationally well respected Israeli Archaeologists.  The Bible Unearthed Archaeology s New Vision of Ancient Israel Amazon.co.uk Israel Finkelstein Neil Asher Silberman 9780684869131 Books that covers 3 & 5. as for 4. that's basic history, here's another book for you The Great Arab Conquests How The Spread Of Islam Changed The World We Live In Amazon.co.uk Hugh Kennedy 9780753823897 Books
or this one
In The Shadow Of The Sword The Battle for Global Empire and the End of the Ancient World Amazon.co.uk Tom Holland 9780349122359 Books

As for 6. That was a joke, but clearly your meds have dulled your sense of humour along with most of your higher faculties. Ultimately it doesn't matter  how many times a city is mentioned in books. What matters is that native Palestinians have as much, if not more, right to Jerusalem/al-Quds as a bunch of  recent colonists whose "claim" is based on a book of fairy stories.


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## aris2chat (Mar 5, 2015)

Challenger said:


> aris2chat said:
> 
> 
> > fanger said:
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As a persecuted minority, communism gave them the ability to blend into the whole as equals.  Under communism they list their religious identity that separated them from everyone else.  It was not about grudges or old scores.  It was about being part of a nation they had grown up in, of being one among many working together for all.

You are implying your own bias and judgements on people that just wanted to fit in and be allowed to live as members of the state.
There was a logic that removing religion from the equation that all people would be treated the same.  It was about rationalism not some idea of superiority.  Other cultures and scholars like plato also tried to come up with a design that would benefit the state and all people.  Every period and culture has done the same.
You are blaming a small group for wanting to fit in and laying a nation blood bath at their feet.  Why don't you blame all those who came from ROC as they were the vast majority??


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## fanger (Mar 5, 2015)

I blame the Leaders


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## Phoenall (Mar 5, 2015)

Challenger said:


> Phoenall said:
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 I did and it was a post by someone else, so I pointed this out to you and you went on and on about someone else finding your post. So I keep asking for your definition of Zionism,  any chance of a proper answer ?


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## Phoenall (Mar 5, 2015)

Challenger said:


> Phoenall said:
> 
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 Don't you understand that all your posts on Israel and the Jews point to you being a NAZI ANTI SEMITIC JEW HATER


 Now these native Palestinians you mention who were they prior to 1960 when the arab muslim illegal immigrants stole their name ? And why do you deny the Jews their rights to the land given to them by the legal owners back in 1923.


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## Humanity (Mar 5, 2015)

Phoenall said:


> Humanity said:
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I did Phoney...

Instead of being a silly little boy, playing games why don't you EVER post supportive links to your BS!


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## Challenger (Mar 5, 2015)

aris2chat said:


> Challenger said:
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> > aris2chat said:
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On the contrary, I'm not blaming anyone;  I'm merely citing the fact that human nature trumps ideological or religious indoctrination. I suggest your own prejudices are imputing blame where there is none.


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## Challenger (Mar 5, 2015)

Phoenall said:


> Challenger said:
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Oh, look. Someone's moved the goalposts because they have no viable response to historical fact and therefore resort to incoherent rambling.


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## montelatici (Mar 5, 2015)

Phoenall said:


> Challenger said:
> 
> 
> > Phoenall said:
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There was no Arab immigration to speak of as all the records show.  95% of the immigration was of European Jews.  Jews owned less 5% of the land prior to partition, the Arabs owned over 85% of the land as the records show.  Do I have to start posting images of the sources documentation again?


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## Phoenall (Mar 6, 2015)

Humanity said:


> Phoenall said:
> 
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 Only your view sunny boy, and for what it is worth you may as well not bother. No matter what evidence is produced you ignore it as it goes against what you are told by your imam.


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## Phoenall (Mar 6, 2015)

Challenger said:


> Phoenall said:
> 
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 Where have the goal posts been moved then, as all I did was ask a simple question that if answered honestly shows that the arab muslims were just arab muslims prior to 1960 and had no ties to the land. Just as the Koran shows that the muslims have no ties to Jerusalem.


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## Phoenall (Mar 6, 2015)

montelatici said:


> Phoenall said:
> 
> 
> > Challenger said:
> ...







 WRONG ANSWER TO THE WRONG QUESTIONS.

 Again

 Now these native Palestinians you mention who were they prior to 1960 when the arab muslim illegal immigrants stole their name ? And why do you deny the Jews their rights to the land given to them by the legal owners back in 1923.[/


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## Challenger (Mar 6, 2015)

Phoenall said:


> Humanity said:
> 
> 
> > Phoenall said:
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OMG! Run! he's using the "imam gambit"!


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## Mindful (Mar 6, 2015)

Phoenall said:


> Humanity said:
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I don't know why you even bother with those two trolls.


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## Phoenall (Mar 6, 2015)

Mindful said:


> Phoenall said:
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 keeps them of everyone elses backs


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## Phoenall (Mar 6, 2015)

Challenger said:


> Phoenall said:
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 Is that like your hasbara gambit, that falls flat everytime you use it now. Must be because it was your only answer at one time


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## Challenger (Mar 6, 2015)

Phoenall said:


> Challenger said:
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## fanger (Mar 7, 2015)

Well-informed observers, both inside and outside of Russia, took note at the time of the crucial Jewish role in Bolshevism. Winston Churchill, for one, warned in an article published in the February 8, 1920, issue of the London _Illustrated Sunday Herald_ that Bolshevism is a "worldwide conspiracy for the overthrow of civilization and for the reconstitution of society on the basis of arrested development, of envious malevolence, and impossible equality." The eminent British political leader and historian went on to write:

"There is no need to exaggerate the part played in the creation of Bolshevism and in the actual bringing about of the Russian Revolution by these international and for the most part atheistical Jews.

The Bolsheviks - 12160


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## RoccoR (Mar 7, 2015)

fanger, et al,

At first glance, my initial impression is that there is something wrong with this quote --- attributed to Alexandr Solzhenetsyn --- ...  I thought that The Bolsheviks were a Marxist-Leninist faction of the 1903 Russian Social Democratic Labour Party (RSDLP); and later known as the Communist Party by 1918.   I thought that _Jewish Bolshevism _was a myth.  

v/r
R


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## Phoenall (Mar 7, 2015)

fanger said:


> Well-informed observers, both inside and outside of Russia, took note at the time of the crucial Jewish role in Bolshevism. Winston Churchill, for one, warned in an article published in the February 8, 1920, issue of the London _Illustrated Sunday Herald_ that Bolshevism is a "worldwide conspiracy for the overthrow of civilization and for the reconstitution of society on the basis of arrested development, of envious malevolence, and impossible equality." The eminent British political leader and historian went on to write:
> 
> "There is no need to exaggerate the part played in the creation of Bolshevism and in the actual bringing about of the Russian Revolution by these international and for the most part atheistical Jews.
> 
> The Bolsheviks - 12160






 Still does not change the facts or the reality that the Jews were too few in numbers to be of any danger, they were exceeded by the ex Christians and atheist that held sway in the communist ranks. Just as today in the UK the ex Christians hold sway and dictate what is to be done in the country, while the paper leaders speaks for them.
 Just as today the Jews are too small in numbers to be any threat to the world as a whole, having only 12 million existing members they would be too thin on the ground to do anything of two groups rose up against them. You are just spouting crazy NAZI WHITE SUPREMACIST ANTI SEMITIC FANTASTICAL LIES. Next you will be quoting the Protocols of the Elders of Zion as the basis for reality.


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## aris2chat (Mar 7, 2015)

fanger said:


> Well-informed observers, both inside and outside of Russia, took note at the time of the crucial Jewish role in Bolshevism. Winston Churchill, for one, warned in an article published in the February 8, 1920, issue of the London _Illustrated Sunday Herald_ that Bolshevism is a "worldwide conspiracy for the overthrow of civilization and for the reconstitution of society on the basis of arrested development, of envious malevolence, and impossible equality." The eminent British political leader and historian went on to write:
> 
> "There is no need to exaggerate the part played in the creation of Bolshevism and in the actual bringing about of the Russian Revolution by these international and for the most part atheistical Jews.
> 
> The Bolsheviks - 12160



They were mostly ROC, only a small percentage were atheistic jews.  The fact that they might have been born of jewish blood had nothing to do with Bolshevism, they did not practice the faith.  They were just russian/bolshevics.  Any other label is just imposing your prejudice and hate.


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## fanger (Mar 7, 2015)

Although officially Jews have never made up more than five percent of the country's total population, they played a highly disproportionate and probably decisive role in the infant Bolshevik regime, effectively dominating the Soviet government during its early years. Soviet historians, along with most of their colleagues in the West, for decades preferred to ignore this subject. The facts, though, cannot be denied.

With the notable exception of Lenin (Vladimir Ulyanov), most of the leading Communists who took control of Russia in 1917-20 were Jews. Leon Trotsky (Lev Bronstein) headed the Red Army and, for a time, was chief of Soviet foreign affairs. Yakov Sverdlov (Solomon) was both the Bolshevik party's executive secretary and -- as chairman of the Central Executive Committee -- head of the Soviet government. Grigori Zinoviev (Radomyslsky) headed the Communist International (Comintern), the central agency for spreading revolution in foreign countries. Other prominent Jews included press commissar Karl Radek (Sobelsohn), foreign affairs commissar Maxim Litvinov (Wallach), Lev Kamenev (Rosenfeld) and Moisei Uritsky.

Lenin himself was of mostly Russian and Kalmuck ancestry, but he was also one-quarter Jewish. His maternal grandfather, Israel (Alexander) Blank, was a Ukrainian Jew who was later baptized into the Russian Orthodox Church.

A thorough-going internationalist, Lenin viewed ethnic or cultural loyalties with contempt. He had little regard for his own countrymen. "An intelligent Russian," he once remarked, "is almost always a Jew or someone with Jewish blood in his veins."

David R. Francis, United States ambassador in Russia, warned in a January 1918 dispatch to Washington: "The Bolshevik leaders here, most of whom are Jews and 90 percent of whom are returned exiles, care little for Russia or any other country but are internationalists and they are trying to start a worldwide social revolution."

The Netherlands' ambassador in Russia, Oudendyke, made much the same point a few months later: "Unless Bolshevism is nipped in the bud immediately, it is bound to spread in one form or another over Europe and the whole world as it is organized and worked by Jews who have no nationality, and whose one object is to destroy for their own ends the existing order of things."

"The Bolshevik Revolution," declared a leading American Jewish community paper in 1920, "was largely the product of Jewish thinking, Jewish discontent, Jewish effort to reconstruct."
The Jewish Role in the Bolshevik Revolution and Russia s Early Soviet Regime


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## aris2chat (Mar 7, 2015)

fanger said:


> Although officially Jews have never made up more than five percent of the country's total population, they played a highly disproportionate and probably decisive role in the infant Bolshevik regime, effectively dominating the Soviet government during its early years. Soviet historians, along with most of their colleagues in the West, for decades preferred to ignore this subject. The facts, though, cannot be denied.
> 
> With the notable exception of Lenin (Vladimir Ulyanov), most of the leading Communists who took control of Russia in 1917-20 were Jews. Leon Trotsky (Lev Bronstein) headed the Red Army and, for a time, was chief of Soviet foreign affairs. Yakov Sverdlov (Solomon) was both the Bolshevik party's executive secretary and -- as chairman of the Central Executive Committee -- head of the Soviet government. Grigori Zinoviev (Radomyslsky) headed the Communist International (Comintern), the central agency for spreading revolution in foreign countries. Other prominent Jews included press commissar Karl Radek (Sobelsohn), foreign affairs commissar Maxim Litvinov (Wallach), Lev Kamenev (Rosenfeld) and Moisei Uritsky.
> 
> ...



an accident of birth is not a jewish motivation behind bolsheviks.  Being of jewish blood or practicing the jewish faith growing up is irrelevant.  The movement was atheistic and promoted the idea of everyone being equal.  It was not based on "jewish" teachings.
Stop trying to impose their prejudices into the discussion.  Jews, ROC and every other group played the same role.

As for you list of jews...... converted to ROC or Lutheran, 1/4 jewish, married a jewish first wife, secularist or not remotely jewish.  So where is the rational for a jewish motivation behind their thinking and actions?
You need to do better research and stay away from bias and hate sites.


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