# Israel does not target civilians?



## fanger (Nov 29, 2015)

Looks like they do


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## fanger (Nov 29, 2015)




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## Penelope (Nov 29, 2015)

Israelis or Jews do not consider non jews as human so they are not even considered civilian.

So Bibi is not lying , although Jews lie al the time, but in his mind he is telling the truth.

The only life that matters is a jew life, religious jew not as much as an atheist jew.


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## Delta4Embassy (Nov 29, 2015)

fanger said:


> Looks like they do




All terrorists are civilians.


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## fanger (Nov 29, 2015)

Not all civilians are terrorists


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## Indeependent (Nov 29, 2015)

Penelope said:


> Indeependent said:
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> > Pallywood Productions Presents!!!
> ...


All I see are some armed guys from a distance (very convenient considering even the least expensive Smart Phone could have magnified the video by at least 5 times) followed by a montage of typical Hamas victims.


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## Daniyel (Nov 29, 2015)

fanger said:


> Looks like they do


I didn't see the bullets.


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## MJB12741 (Nov 29, 2015)

fanger said:


> Looks like they do



Watching your ridiculous video we do not see any Israeli targeting any civilian.  All we see is a terroist complex in Gaza leveled & some dead People who I guess are Palestinians but we know not who killed them.  Anyway thank you for this entertaining video from the truth media Al Jazeera.  Heh Heh


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## Humanity (Nov 29, 2015)

Daniyel said:


> fanger said:
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> > Looks like they do
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Neither did the poor bastards who were shot!


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## Billo_Really (Nov 29, 2015)

Israel is a sick and inhuman society that should be nuked and barbecued before God.


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## Kondor3 (Nov 29, 2015)

When we see a reliable account then folks might pay a bit more attention...

If a Palestinian told me that Day was bright and Night was dark, I'd ask for a second opinion...

As would most Americans with even an ounce of brains...


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## montelatici (Nov 29, 2015)

Kondor3 said:


> When we see a reliable account then folks might pay a bit more attention...
> 
> If a Palestinian told me that Day was bright and Night was dark, I'd ask for a second opinion...
> 
> As would most Americans with even an ounce of brains...



Most Americans are brainwashed.  Most Americans get their view of the world from what they see on Fox and CNN.


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## Daniyel (Nov 29, 2015)

montelatici said:


> Kondor3 said:
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> > When we see a reliable account then folks might pay a bit more attention...
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And you knows best.


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## Daniyel (Nov 29, 2015)

Humanity said:


> Daniyel said:
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Of course they didn't,  only thing they saw was the soldiers handing candies.


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## Phoenall (Nov 30, 2015)

Billo_Really said:


> Indeependent said:
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> > Pallywood Productions Presents!!!
> ...







 Everything as it does not show anything. Where is the evidence of the targeting as none can be seen. Just another pallywood production that relies of bad editing and lies


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## Phoenall (Nov 30, 2015)

Billo_Really said:


> Israel is a sick and inhuman society that should be nuked and barbecued before God.







 Now say that you don't hate the Jews after this post, how about all of islam and its supporters should be neck shot to increase the worlds I.Q. by at least 100 points. At the same time removing 99% of the violence, terrorism and mass murders from society


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## Billo_Really (Nov 30, 2015)

Phoenall said:


> Everything as it does not show anything. Where is the evidence of the targeting as none can be seen. Just another pallywood production that relies of bad editing and lies


Where's your evidence of that?

This is nothing more than  conjecture on your part.


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## Billo_Really (Nov 30, 2015)

Phoenall said:


> Now say that you don't hate the Jews after this post, how about all of islam and its supporters should be neck shot to increase the worlds I.Q. by at least 100 points. At the same time removing 99% of the violence, terrorism and mass murders from society


You don't thing that's a little harsh?

BTW, why would I hate Jews?


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## Phoenall (Dec 1, 2015)

Billo_Really said:


> Phoenall said:
> 
> 
> > Everything as it does not show anything. Where is the evidence of the targeting as none can be seen. Just another pallywood production that relies of bad editing and lies
> ...






 More to the point where is your evidence of any targeting, if none is to be seen than you are the one using conjecture. If the video is heavily edited and jumps from scene to scene that don't seem to be the same place then it is a faked video. Find a video that contains the evidence for once and you will have a case, keep producing edited videos that don't match the narrative and you fail.
 Example is the alleged bullet flying towards a man that was stated to have hit him in the back. Your picture showed the man running towards the bullet, so was obviously a fake. And still you argued that it showed the IDF were deliberately targeting innocents and shooting them down in cold blood


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## Phoenall (Dec 1, 2015)

Billo_Really said:


> Phoenall said:
> 
> 
> > Now say that you don't hate the Jews after this post, how about all of islam and its supporters should be neck shot to increase the worlds I.Q. by at least 100 points. At the same time removing 99% of the violence, terrorism and mass murders from society
> ...







 You tell me as only you can answer the why, and your words show that you do hate the Jews

 Israel is a sick and inhuman society that should be nuked and barbecued before God. 


 My money is you hate the Jews because you have been brainwashed by your religion and your fellow Nazi's into hating the Jews, while at the same time defending the Palestinians terrorism, violence and murders.


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## fanger (Dec 1, 2015)

Phoenall said:


> Israel is a sick and inhuman society that should be nuked and barbecued before God.


QFT


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## P F Tinmore (Dec 1, 2015)

If Israel does not target civilians it is the ooops capital of the world as the vast majority of its victims are civilians.


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## Hollie (Dec 1, 2015)

P F Tinmore said:


> If Israel does not target civilians it is the ooops capital of the world as the vast majority of its victims are civilians.


As this has been addressed so many times in various threads, there must be an issue with you that goes beyond mere ignorance and insensate Jooooooo hatreds.

Islamic terrorist Pal'istanians routinely launch attacks at Israel from residential / civilian areas that put civilians at risk.

What is it about Pal'istanian Islamic terrorism that you're still befuddled about?


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## Phoenall (Dec 1, 2015)

P F Tinmore said:


> If Israel does not target civilians it is the ooops capital of the world as the vast majority of its victims are civilians.








 Nope as the Palestinians lose civilian status once they act as human shields. Read the Geneva conventions that explains it all


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## RoccoR (Dec 1, 2015)

P F Tinmore,  et al,

Interesting concept, but entirely wrong.



P F Tinmore said:


> If Israel does not target civilians it is the ooops capital of the world as the vast majority of its victims are civilians.


*(COMMENT)*

It is actually kind of interesting.

The Hostile Arab Palestinians (HoAP) commit two War Crimes that set the conditions for civilian casualties.

•  First:  RULE #23:  The HoAP Locate of Targetable Military Objectives in the vicinity Densely Populated Areas; and, in close proximity of other Protected Activities.  The HoAP do this to utilize the presence of a civilian or other protected person to render certain Targetable Military Objectives, or HoAP forces immune from Israeli Strikes.  It is also related to the prohibition of human shields (RULE  #97), as everything feasible must be done to separate Targetable Military Objectives from the civilian population, but in no event may civilians be used to shield Targetable Military Objectives.  (Article 58(b) of Additional Protocol I)

•  Second:  RULE #24:  The HoAP must removal of civilians and civilian Objects from the vicinity of Targetable Military Objectives.  HoAP intentionally allow civilian persons and objects, under its control, to congregate in the vicinity of Targetable Military Objectives.   (Article 58(a) of Additional Protocol I)​
We are reminded that if the Israeli Defense Force  (IDF) has to cancelled or suspended an attack because it is expected to cause ‘excessive incidental civilian casualties’ in relation to the concrete and direct military advantage anticipated, THEN the HoAP have committed a violation of RULE #97 (Human Shields).  The intentional co-location of military objectives and civilians or persons _hors de combat_ with the specific intent of trying to prevent the targeting of those military objectives.

*(OBSERVATION)*


As of January 2015, more than 26,000 Afghan civilians are estimated to have died violent deaths as a result of the war.

There have been approximately 165,000 Iraqi civilians killed by direct violence since the US invasion.
The actual number of civilians killed by direct and indirect war violence is unknown but likely much higher – in the hundreds of thousands.

Almost 57,000 Pakistanis – combatants and non-combatants – have been killed since 2001. Of these, about 21,500 are civilians.​



In the overall comparison, the civilian casualty figures are not that different from the casualties found in other wars.  And the ratio of Israeli-to-Palestinian casualties is only about 1:3.  This is well within the range of casualties previously considered as acceptable.

Most Respectfully,
R


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## montelatici (Dec 1, 2015)

RoccoR said:


> P F Tinmore,  et al,
> 
> Interesting concept, but entirely wrong.
> 
> ...



The VOIJ (Vicious Occupying Israeli Jew) forces committed the serious war crimes that have been detailed in the UN,  They were also accused of the serious war crime of child abduction this summer.

UN Adds Abduction of Children to War Crimes List Israel Dodged

The difference with other conflicts is that the Israeli Jews are ignoring the laws of belligerant occupation and committing war crimes.  

The percentage of civilian deaths of 75% makes the VOIJ civilian death rate from 40-50% higher than in similar conflicts.

UN: 75 percent of Palestinian dead civilians


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## Tuatara (Dec 1, 2015)

Kondor3 said:


> When we see a reliable account then folks might pay a bit more attention...
> 
> If a Palestinian told me that Day was bright and Night was dark, I'd ask for a second opinion...
> 
> As would most Americans with even an ounce of brains...


So what you are saying is if a person told you what you already know to be true you would disdcredit them because of your own bias and bigotry. Anyone who in on the Israeli side has no idea what a reliable source is.


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## Hossfly (Dec 1, 2015)

fanger said:


> Looks like they do


They don't target anyone who is not attempting to kill them. True fact.
But everybody in Israel is a target for Palestinians. Another true fact.
Here's the straight poop.


_The wave of terror attacks against Jews in Israel receives broad support from the Palestinian street, and is fueled by daily incitement by the Palestinian leadership. Their goal: annihilate the Jewish State._

_By: Bassam Tawil, The Gatestone Institute_

As the current Palestinian campaign of terrorism against Israel is about to enter its third month, it is still not clear to many what the Palestinians are trying to achieve. The Palestinians cannot even agree on a name for their campaign. Some are referring to it as an “intifada,” while others are describing it as a “_Habba Jamahiriya”_ [“popular puff,” or “flurry”].

The Palestinians also have not been able to agree on the motives behind the stabbing, shooting, firebombing and car-ramming attacks. Palestinian Authority (PA) leader Mahmoud Abbas has repeatedly claimed during the past few weeks that the terrorists are setting out to kill Jews out of “despair and frustration” and the lack of a “political horizon.” But Abbas seems intentionally to be ignoring that it is he and his Palestinian Authority who are responsible — together with Hamas, Islamic Jihad and other Palestinian factions — for the violence, as a result of their daily incitement against Israel.



Poll Shows Majority of Palestinians Seek the Destruction of Israel


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## montelatici (Dec 1, 2015)

Hossfly said:


> fanger said:
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> > Looks like they do
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Hmmm.  The "United for Israel" website.  Very neutral site.  Way to go Hoss.  You don't ever disappoint.


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## P F Tinmore (Dec 1, 2015)

montelatici said:


> Hossfly said:
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Not to mention Gatestone.


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## Phoenall (Dec 2, 2015)

Tuatara said:


> Kondor3 said:
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> > When we see a reliable account then folks might pay a bit more attention...
> ...







 No I would question their words because I know them to be wrong, and most probably propaganda lies. Like the alleged deaths of civilians that were shown by Al Jazeera to be terrorists and militia on their way to fight against Israel


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## Phoenall (Dec 2, 2015)

P F Tinmore said:


> montelatici said:
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 Don't forget Mondoweis that now decrepit mouthpiece of conspiracy theorists that monte uses as  "source documentation"


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## Daniyel (Dec 2, 2015)

Tuatara said:


> Kondor3 said:
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> > When we see a reliable account then folks might pay a bit more attention...
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A Riddle: You are at a crossroad on your way to town, you meet two people - a pathological liar and a trustworthy person, you can't tell which one is the liar and you are allowed to ask one question, what would you ask them to get back to town?


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## fanger (Dec 2, 2015)

Is _he_ jewish?


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## Hollie (Dec 2, 2015)

P F Tinmore said:


> montelatici said:
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Why not mention Gatestone? The latest series of islamic terrorist attacks aimed at Israelis is identified in the Gatestone article.

The fawning praise for the Pal'istanian terrorists has continued from the Islamic terrorist syndicate headed by Abbas. The contrast in cultural / societal behavior that separates the cult of islamic fascism from Western based values could not be clearer.

In typical fashion, Abbas and various other islamic terrorists / Pal'istanian welfare cheats rattle on with overwrought cliche's and slogans about the "Zionist occupier" and how the Pal'istinians are the eternal victims (and they are - of their own incompetence and ineptitudes). But that's old news. The islamic terrorist end-game is to drive the Jews into the sea, and they say so in any number of pronouncements spoken and written. In essence, the only victimization "Pal'istinians" endure today, under the internal autonomy Israel has granted them within their zones, are fruits of "Pal'istinian" *violence:* specifically, violence directed at Israel, Israelis, and Jews generally. Nor is the world at large unaware of that.


Palestinian Messaging About Violence: Blame Israel, but Keep Control

As two weeks of stabbings and violent demonstrations in and around Jerusalem continue, along with sporadic mass breaches of the Gaza border, official Palestinian statements and media commentary are sending a dual message. Generally speaking, neither Palestinian Authority (PA) nor Hamas messages call for more violence in their own territory -- although Hamas does call for more murder of Jews in Jerusalem. But neither Palestinian government repudiates the violence; both praise its Palestinian perpetrators; and both blame Israel rather than their own people for it.


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## P F Tinmore (Dec 2, 2015)

Hollie said:


> P F Tinmore said:
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Occupiers always have problems with security.

It comes with the territory.


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## Hollie (Dec 2, 2015)

P F Tinmore said:


> Hollie said:
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I see the issue you have. As a good muhammedan, you're confused by the term "occupier" as it applies to disputed territory. And yes, Israel, as does the world, has issues with security as it relates to Islamic terrorism.

How many more dead Pal'istanians will there be during this intifada-lite?


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## montelatici (Dec 2, 2015)

Hollie said:


> P F Tinmore said:
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There doesn't seem to be any confusion legally. Perhaps you are somewhat confused or have a case of cognitive dissonance.

"INTERNATIONAL COURT OF JUSTICE REPORTS OF JUDGMENTS, ADVISORY OPINIONS AND ORDERS LEGAL CONSEQUENCES OF THE CONSTRUCTION OF A WALL IN THE* OCCCUPIED* PALESTINIAN TERRITORY"​Recalling in particular relevant United Nations resolutions affirming that Israeli settlements in the* Occupied *Palestinian Territory, including East Jerusalem, are illegal and an obstacle to peace and to economic and social development as well as those demanding the complete cessation of settlement activities..............................Gravely concerned at the commencement and continuation of construction by Israel, the* occupying Power*, of a wall in the* Occupied Palestinian Territory*, including in and around East Jerusalem, which is in departure from the Armistice Line of 1949 (Green Line) and which has involved the confiscation and destruction of Palestinian land and resources, the disruption of the lives of thousands of protected civilians and the de facto annexation of large areas of territory, and underlining the unanimous opposition by the international community to the construction of that wall........"

http://www.icj-cij.org/docket/files/131/1671.pdf


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## Phoenall (Dec 2, 2015)

fanger said:


> Is _he_ jewish?






 Does it matter, and if yes why does it matter ?


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## Phoenall (Dec 2, 2015)

P F Tinmore said:


> Hollie said:
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 Then it is time the arab muslim occupiers left and allowed the Jews to live in peace.    Getting 2000 of their prized terrorists killed in reprisals to their terrorism comes with the territory


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## Phoenall (Dec 2, 2015)

montelatici said:


> Hollie said:
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 But it seems that you have a problem with keeping on topic and not going of at a tangent when you are being shown up as a complete idiot on message boards. No one is disputing that the disputed land is occupied by Israel are they, and that the separation barrier is questionable. But this thread is about Israel targeting civilians, which has not been proven and never will.


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## jillian (Dec 2, 2015)

Penelope said:


> Israelis or Jews do not consider non jews as human so they are not even considered civilian.
> 
> So Bibi is not lying , although Jews lie al the time, but in his mind he is telling the truth.
> 
> The only life that matters is a jew life, religious jew not as much as an atheist jew.



that's false, anti-Semite loon.

but if you're going to put your munitions in civilian locations (which the hamas terrorists do) Israel isn't going to not respond to terrorism because terrorists violate the Geneva conventions by doing that.

now why don't you go blow yourself up


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## Hollie (Dec 2, 2015)

montelatici said:


> Hollie said:
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That's fine that the ICJ issues an opinion.

There are counter opinions regarding the disputed territories.That's why they're called _disputed territories._


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## montelatici (Dec 2, 2015)

What counter opinion would that be, do you have a source other than an Israeli/Jewish/Zionist opinion?


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## Hollie (Dec 2, 2015)

montelatici said:


> What counter opinion would that be, do you have a source other than an Israeli/Jewish/Zionist opinion?





montelatici said:


> What counter opinion would that be, do you have a source other than an Israeli/Jewish/Zionist opinion?


You can do a search and find there are quite a number of disputed territories. There are differing opinions offered for those.

Why do you presume that cutting and pasting an opinion from the ICJ holds any merit?


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## Hossfly (Dec 2, 2015)

Hollie said:


> montelatici said:
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> 
> > What counter opinion would that be, do you have a source other than an Israeli/Jewish/Zionist opinion?
> ...


I've been doing a search and I can't find Palestine on any maps. Palestine appears to be a country without any land mass. Therefore I conclude that Israel can't target civilians of a non-existant country.


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## montelatici (Dec 2, 2015)

Only the Israelis call the Palestinian territories "disputed territories" even the U.S. class them the occupied territories officially and formally. You cannot provide any source other than Israeli that calls them "disputed territories". 

The ICJ opinion confirms the UN's position and makes it settled International Law.  Of course, from your question, it appears you do not have much familiarity with law in general and international law in particular. There is always time to learn.  Your assertions might be better received if you provided source material.  Yes, that annoying cutting and pasting that many of us learned to do at university when we took course in Harvard referencing in order to make our papers acceptable for university level work.


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## Hollie (Dec 2, 2015)

montelatici said:


> Only the Israelis call the Palestinian territories "disputed territories" even the U.S. class them the occupied territories officially and formally. You cannot provide any source other than Israeli that calls them "disputed territories".
> 
> The ICJ opinion confirms the UN's position and makes it settled International Law.  Of course, from your question, it appears you do not have much familiarity with law in general and international law in particular. There is always time to learn.  Your assertions might be better received if you provided source material.  Yes, that annoying cutting and pasting that many of us learned to do at university when we took course in Harvard referencing in order to make our papers acceptable for university level work.


You should learn to actually read the source material you obviously don't understand.

As with General Assembly Resolutions (which the ICJ provides juidication on request), the IJC's decisions are also nonbinding. As merely the bully arm of the prejudices and injustices given false respectability by the UN General Assembly, particularly in regards to the shameful unmitigated bias against Israel and, often, the US, neither body deserves nor has earned the right to cast judgments upon Israel (or the US).

Neither the UN General Assembly nor the IJC have aurthority to take make decisions or implement actions detrimental to any nation's right to defend/protect itself. 


Their singular preoccupation with Israel while the majority of the accusing nations themselves are guilty of horrible injustices merely demonstrate their lack of credibility and the farcical and hypocritical nature of their behavior.
_
"The UN's discrimination against Israel is not a minor infraction, nor a parochial nuisance of interest solely to those concerned with equal rights of the Jewish people and the Jewish state. Instead, the world body's obsession with censuring Israel at every turn directly affects all *citizens* of the world, for it constitutes (1) a severe violation of the equality principles guaranteed by the UN Charter and underlying the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, and (2) a significant obstacle to the UN's ability to carry out its proper mandate.None of this means Israel should be above the law. Every country, including every democracy, commits human rights violations, and states should be held to account accordingly, both domestically and internationally. Yet Israel does have the right to be treated _*equally*_ under the law.2 It is legitimate for the UN to criticize Israel, but not when UN bodies do so unfairly, selectively, massively, sometimes exclusively, and always obsessively."_

See remainder of this review at: UN, Israel & Anti-Semitism - UN Watch


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## montelatici (Dec 2, 2015)

UN Watch is an Israeli propaganda NGO.  

Alfred Moses, a Zionist Jew, is the chairman of UN Watch.  I said any non-Zionist/Israeli/Jewish sources. Plus, the piece doesn't support your position that anyone outside of the Israelis (and Zionist supporters) considers the Palestinian territories anything but occupied territories.

ICJ decisions become settled international law.  Countries can disregard the law, but it is settled law.


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## Billo_Really (Dec 2, 2015)

jillian said:


> that's false, anti-Semite loon.
> 
> but if you're going to put your munitions in civilian locations (which the hamas terrorists do) Israel isn't going to not respond to terrorism because terrorists violate the Geneva conventions by doing that.
> 
> now why don't you go blow yourself up


Saying they can't have munitions, is like saying they don't have a right to defend themselves.  Is that what you're saying?  Are you saying they don't have a right to defend themselves?  Answer the question, you fucking psychotic bitch!

As for the munitions themselves, the target must be of military necessity.  If the civilian casualty is greater than the military gain, then it cannot be targeted.


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## Hollie (Dec 2, 2015)

montelatici said:


> UN Watch is an Israeli propaganda NGO.
> 
> Alfred Moses, a Zionist Jew, is the chairman of UN Watch.  I said any non-Zionist/Israeli/Jewish sources. Plus, the piece doesn't support your position that anyone outside of the Israelis (and Zionist supporters) considers the Palestinian territories anything but occupied territories.
> 
> ICJ decisions become settled international law.  Countries can disregard the law, but it is settled law.


You forgot to append "...... because I say so" to your settled law absurdity.

As you agree, the ICJ is nothing more than an advisory entity with no arm of enforcement. As pointed out, the UN and the ICJ long ago lost credibility. I mean how cool is it the KSA, Iran and other Islamist nations are rotated on the Human Rights Council?

I agree that your _settled law_ meme is a meaningless term.


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## Hollie (Dec 2, 2015)

montelatici said:


> UN Watch is an Israeli propaganda NGO.
> 
> Alfred Moses, a Zionist Jew, is the chairman of UN Watch.  I said any non-Zionist/Israeli/Jewish sources. Plus, the piece doesn't support your position that anyone outside of the Israelis (and Zionist supporters) considers the Palestinian territories anything but occupied territories.
> 
> ICJ decisions become settled international law.  Countries can disregard the law, but it is settled law.


Nothing in your comments refutes the biases that have become typical UN  prattle. Your whining about UN Watch does nothing but allow you the opportunity to promote your own biases. 

Nothing in your cutting and pasting offers anything more than your opinion of the ICJ' s opinion.


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## Billo_Really (Dec 2, 2015)

Hollie said:


> Nothing in your comments refutes the biases that have become typical UN  prattle. Your whining about UN Watch does nothing but allow you the opportunity to promote your own biases.
> 
> Nothing in your cutting and pasting offers anything more than your opinion of the ICJ' s opinion.


It cannot be disputed these territories were seized during the '67 war.  And since they were seized during a war, that makes them "occupied" and nothing can change the status of that until the "occupation" ends.

Now, WTF does that have to do with the OP and the deliberate targeting of civilians by the Israeli's?


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## Hollie (Dec 2, 2015)

Billo_Really said:


> Hollie said:
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> > Nothing in your comments refutes the biases that have become typical UN  prattle. Your whining about UN Watch does nothing but allow you the opportunity to promote your own biases.
> ...


What deliberate targeting of civilians by the Israelis would that be?


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## montelatici (Dec 2, 2015)

It is almost as if you intend to make yourself ignorant of the facts.  I mean stating:

 " the ICJ is nothing more than an advisory entity with no arm of enforcement." 

makes you look so ridiculous, when their is an Article of the Charter of the United Nations that addresses the very matter.  Do some research before blurting out nonsense. 

 ICJ decisions become settled law and the decision becomes precedent for future cases. Per Article 94 of the Charter of the United Nations. You can continue to stamp your feet and claim the United Nations has no authority, but only you and few other misguided partisans or countries, e.g. North Korea  believe that.

For your edification here is Article 94 of the Charter of the United Nations.

"*Article 94
1. Each Member of the United Nations undertakes to comply with the decision of the International Court of Justice in any case to which it is a party.*

2. If any party to a case fails to perform the obligations incumbent upon it under a judgment rendered by the Court, the other party may have recourse to the Security Council, which may, if it deems necessary, make recommendations or decide upon measures to be taken to give effect to the judgment."

Charter of the United Nations | International Court of Justice


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## Hollie (Dec 2, 2015)

montelatici said:


> It is almost as if you intend to make yourself ignorant of the facts.  I mean stating:
> 
> " the ICJ is nothing more than an advisory entity with no arm of enforcement."
> 
> ...


Security Council resolutions are non-binding. I pointed that out to you previously.

So, your cut and paste does nothing more than reiterate what I've already instructed you on,  that the ICJ does nothing more than offer advisory opinions.

I'm glad you agree.


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## montelatici (Dec 2, 2015)

"Security Council resolutions are non-binding. I pointed that out to you previously."

What?????? You are digging such a deep hole.  Your strongest supporters are cringing. 

Pursuant to Article 25 of the Charter Security Council Resolutions are binding on all members of the United Nations.


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## fanger (Dec 2, 2015)

Hollie doesn't see things as being right or wrong, but as pro Israel or not


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## Hollie (Dec 2, 2015)

fanger said:


> Hollie doesn't see things as being right or wrong, but as pro Israel or not


Why don't you address the fact that Israel takes measures to warn civilians prior to operations targeting Islamic terrorists.


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## montelatici (Dec 2, 2015)

Hollie said:


> fanger said:
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> > Hollie doesn't see things as being right or wrong, but as pro Israel or not
> ...




I think you should research matters before making statements.  It is all Israeli propaganda designed to motivate "useful idiots". This is what actually happens.


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## Hollie (Dec 2, 2015)

montelatici said:


> Hollie said:
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I think you should learn to research matters before cutting and pasting YouTube videos.

How much warning should be given to Islamic terrorists who use civilians as human shields?

I noticed you didn't refute the fact that Israel takes measures to warn civilians, you were more concerned with promoting your obvious agenda.


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## Hollie (Dec 2, 2015)

montelatici said:


> Hollie said:
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Israel warns Gaza residents to leave before strikes  - CNN.com


Israel warns Gazans to leave homes as air strikes continue - BBC News


*UN: Gaza Casualties Were Warned in Advance by Israel*

UN: Gaza Casualties Were Warned in Advance by Israel

The majority of Palestinians injured or killed by Israeli airstrikes were warned in advance by Israel that an attack was coming, providing further evidence that the terror group Hamas is intentionally urging citizens to ignore these warnings in a bid to inflate the body count, according to the United Nations.

Hamas in recent days has urged Gaza residents to ignore Israeli warnings and remain in their houses, an order that effectively turns civilians into human shields.

*Israel has a policy of not carrying out attacks until civilians are notified via leaflets, phone calls, and text messages, a tactic that has proved effective in reducing casualties, the U.N. reported.*

The bolding I added.


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## montelatici (Dec 2, 2015)

The Washington Free Beacon.  Now you are using neocons as serious sources?

You do realize it is just a propaganda outlet, don't you.  

"_*The Washington Free Beacon*_ is an American web site that publishes news and associated content from a neoconservative perspective."

The Washington Free Beacon - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## Hollie (Dec 2, 2015)

montelatici said:


> The Washington Free Beacon.  Now you are using neocons as serious sources?
> 
> You do realize it is just a propaganda outlet, don't you.
> 
> ...



Oh my. You're getting quite desperate.

I take it you don't like it when a neoconservative (note the bold color), publication references UN reps.



From my earlier cnn link:

Video on Hamas-run television showed a Hamas spokesman urging people to serve as human shields, CNN's Jake Tapper reported Thursday.

Palestinian sources have also described some deaths in the conflict as being people who formed a "human shield."

But former Palestinian adviser Diana Buttu told "The Lead with Jake Tapper" that she does not believe "people are going to listen to somebody who says stay inside while your house is being bombed."

Hamas, the Palestinian militant group that controls Gaza, regularly uses sites and facilities populated by civilians.



Lovely, lovely folks those human shield'ists'


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## Hollie (Dec 2, 2015)

More of the grand conspiracy to be exposed.


‘Roof knocking': The Israeli military’s tactic of phoning Palestinians it is about to bomb


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## montelatici (Dec 2, 2015)

Hollie said:


> More of the grand conspiracy to be exposed.
> 
> 
> ‘Roof knocking': The Israeli military’s tactic of phoning Palestinians it is about to bomb



From your Washington Post link. Heck, you are doing my work for me Hollie.  Thanks.

"There are reports of "warnings" that are given but no bombing following. There are also instances in which a bombing is not preceded by a warning, or, worse still, the attack may mistakenly destroy the wrong target or produce wider collateral damage...."


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## Hollie (Dec 2, 2015)

montelatici said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> > More of the grand conspiracy to be exposed.
> ...


Heck, you're getting quite frantic.

Warnings that are given (I'm delighted you're in agreement that Israel provides warnings to civilians), and not targeted may be nothing more than reassessments of Intel.

Yes, collateral damage is an unfortunate circumstance of war.

But heck, if there were no instances of Pal'istanian Islamic terrorism, there would be no need for retaliatory strikes by Israel.

Do your heroes, the Pal'istanian Islamic terrorists drop leaflets or issue advance warnings before indiscriminate rocket attacks aimed at Israel?


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## Hollie (Dec 2, 2015)

Quite clearly, warnings to civilians have the unintended consequence of alerting your Islamic terrorist heroes of the location of intended strikes.

Unfortunately, that leads to the intended consequence of your Islamic terrorist heroes providing human shields /dead civilians for propaganda purposes. 

But heck, why would cowards like you care one wit for dead civilians when they're cheap currency to placate your disease. 


Israel warns north Gaza civilians to evacuate ahead of strikes - BBC News

From a July 2014 article.


*Israel warns north Gaza civilians to evacuate ahead of strikes*

Israel has warned Palestinians in the north of Gaza to evacuate their homes ahead of further airstrikes.

Israeli air raids on Gaza continued overnight; one strike killed seventeen people in the home of the Palestinian police chief. 

Meanwhile, Hamas has fired further rockets at Israeli cities including Tel Aviv.


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## montelatici (Dec 2, 2015)

Hollie said:


> Quite clearly, warnings to civilians have the unintended consequence of alerting your Islamic terrorist heroes of the location of intended strikes.
> 
> Unfortunately, that leads to the intended consequence of your Islamic terrorist heroes providing human shields /dead civilians for propaganda purposes.
> 
> ...



Where were the Palestinians supposed to go?  In any case the Israelis killed more than a thousand women and children.


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## Hollie (Dec 2, 2015)

montelatici said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> > Quite clearly, warnings to civilians have the unintended consequence of alerting your Islamic terrorist heroes of the location of intended strikes.
> ...


When your heroes in Hamas explicitly put women and children in harms way, such are the results. 

Do you really expect that acts of Islamic terrorism will not be met with a response?


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## montelatici (Dec 2, 2015)

Hollie said:


> montelatici said:
> 
> 
> > Hollie said:
> ...



Again with the propaganda. 

"This is arguably one of Israel’s most insidious claims, because it blames Palestinians for their own death and deprives them of even their victimhood. Israel made the same argument in its war against Lebanon in 2006 and in its war against Palestinians in2008. Notwithstanding its military cartoon sketches, Israel has yet to prove that Hamas has used civilian infrastructure to store military weapons. The two cases where Hamas indeed stored weapons in UNRWA schools,* the schools were empty.* UNRWA discovered the rockets and publicly condemned the violation of its sanctity.

International human rights organizations that have investigated these claims have determined that they are not true. It attributed the high death toll in Israel’s 2006 war on Lebanon to Israel’s indiscriminate attacks. Human Rights Watch notes:

The evidence Human Rights Watch uncovered in its on-the-ground investigations refutes [Israel’s] argument…we found strong evidence that Hezbollah stored most of its rockets in bunkers and weapon storage facilities located in uninhabited fields and valleys, that in the vast majority of cases Hezbollah fighters left populated civilian areas as soon as the fighting started, and that Hezbollah fired the vast majority of its rockets from pre-prepared positions outside villages."

Five Israeli Talking Points on Gaza—Debunked


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## Indeependent (Dec 2, 2015)

montelatici said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> > montelatici said:
> ...



Taking into account that 90+% of Jews in the IDF are on again/off again Left Wing Doves, I'm absolutely shocked that they aren't SCREAMING at the top of their lungs, as they are wont to do, that the trajectory of the attacks from Gaza are coming from Mark Levin's Underground Bunker.
Any more bullshit you'd like to shovel our way?

In fact, being as you are an esteemed military man yourself, perhaps you can get permission to take a gander at radar activity and prove once and for all that Israel was being attacked by Mossad Agents from a submarine somewhere in the Mediterranean.


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## Hollie (Dec 2, 2015)

montelatici said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> > montelatici said:
> ...


Let's ponder upon this bit of intellectual sloth, shall we?

"Notwithstanding its military cartoon sketches, Israel has yet to prove that Hamas has used civilian infrastructure to store military weapons. The two cases where Hamas indeed stored weapons in UNRWA schools,* the schools were empty.* UNRWA discovered the rockets and publicly condemned the violation of its sanctity."


So, to summarize: Israel has yet to prove that Hamas has used civilian infrastructure to store military weapons


but.... but.... but..... but


The two cases where Hamas indeed stored weapons in UNRWA schools,* the schools were empty.

*
Let's review what we've learned.

1. Hamas does not use civilian infrastructure to store weapons (weapons purchased with infidel welfare dollars), except _when they do_ use civilian infrastructure to store weapons.

2. Fascinating.


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## Kondor3 (Dec 2, 2015)

montelatici said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> > Quite clearly, warnings to civilians have the unintended consequence of alerting your Islamic terrorist heroes of the location of intended strikes.
> ...


It's what happens when you embed your war assets in schools and hospitals and mosques and residential neighborhoods...

Hiding behind the skirts of your women and children.

Israel isn't targeting civilians.

Israel hammers legitimate military targets.

Don't want to incur civilian casualties?

1. Move your war assets.

2. Or stop fighting.

Or continue to suffer civilian casualties.

The choice is clear, simple and entirely up to the so-called Palestinians.

Israel is happy to oblige, any way you want it.

Next batter...


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## montelatici (Dec 2, 2015)

Indeependent said:


> montelatici said:
> 
> 
> > Hollie said:
> ...



What was all that about?  Who has ever claimed that the Israelis are launching rockets at themselves?


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## montelatici (Dec 2, 2015)

montelatici said:


> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> > montelatici said:
> ...



Empty unused structures, civilian or otherwise, can be seconded for military use during a conflict.  Were they not UN-owned facilities it would have been perfectly appropriate.  The illegality is that UN facilities were used. But it is not a war crime.


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## montelatici (Dec 2, 2015)

Kondor3 said:


> montelatici said:
> 
> 
> > Hollie said:
> ...



There was no hiding behind civilians. Rank Israeli propaganda.

Israel targets civilians, always has.

End the occupation and blockade if you want peace.

The longer it goes on the more terrible the payback will be.


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## Hollie (Dec 2, 2015)

montelatici said:


> montelatici said:
> 
> 
> > Indeependent said:
> ...


It's hilarious when your cut and pasted articles literally self-refute and you're forced to make bizarre, rambling excuses for Pal'istanian Islamic terrorism.


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## Hollie (Dec 2, 2015)

montelatici said:


> Kondor3 said:
> 
> 
> > montelatici said:
> ...



http://nypost.com/2015/05/02/un-report-outlines-how-hamas-used-kids-as-human-shields/

And in at least one school where weapons were stored, the report found, Hamas unlocked the gate “to allow children access to the schoolyard.”

In fact, Hamas has long used UN facilities as a staging grounds and observation posts for attacks on Israel. And the United Nations barely raised an objection — unless and until Hamas was caught and called out.

The Palestinian Authority has hinted at having Israel investigated by the International Criminal Court for war crimes. But the real crimes here were committed by Hamas — and its UN accomplices.


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## montelatici (Dec 2, 2015)

Hollie said:


> montelatici said:
> 
> 
> > Kondor3 said:
> ...



Still spouting the propaganda.


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## Kondor3 (Dec 2, 2015)

montelatici said:


> ...There was no hiding behind civilians. Rank Israeli propaganda...


Amnesty International, the United Nations, and others, say otherwise. But thank you for playing.



> ...Israel targets civilians, always has...


You declaring it thus does not render it thus.



> ...End the occupation and blockade if you want peace...


Leave, if you want to live.



> ...The longer it goes on the more terrible the payback will be.


Pffffffftttttttt....


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## Indeependent (Dec 2, 2015)

montelatici said:


> Kondor3 said:
> 
> 
> > montelatici said:
> ...



Sure...yawn.
Everyday we see Muslims slaughtering Muslims and yet the West Bank Jordanians, in your mind, are SUCH innocent little sheep.
Please continue to shovel the bullshit into the engine.


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## Hollie (Dec 2, 2015)

montelatici said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> > montelatici said:
> ...


I gave you sourced data which actually confirms what your cut and pasted article concurred with: that the Hamas terrorists were using civilian infrastructure to wage war and allowing children access to those structures.

Have you ever thought to question why there have been so few Israeli casualties during Israel's defensive wars with your Islamist terrorist heroes in comparison with the Pal'istinian death toll. It's because Israel's first priority is the defense of its citizens, which is why there are missile defense systems, shelters and warning systems in Israeli towns. If the Hamas tunnel rats can dig tunnels, why can't they build shelters. Instead, they prefers to use women and children as human shields, schools and residential neighborhoods to launch attacks while its leaders rush into hiding, the gutless cowards.


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## montelatici (Dec 2, 2015)

Hollie said:


> montelatici said:
> 
> 
> > Hollie said:
> ...



When an armed to the teeth opponent attacks an enemy with small arms, the opponent with tanks, artillery, aircraft and naval assets should have very few casualties. The gutless cowards are the Israelis.


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## Hollie (Dec 2, 2015)

montelatici said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> > montelatici said:
> ...


I know, right? 

Just imagine the mayhem that Israel could unleash if they chose not to act with restraint to continued acts of Pal'istanian Islamic terrorism.


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## montelatici (Dec 2, 2015)

Hollie said:


> montelatici said:
> 
> 
> > Hollie said:
> ...



Killing more than a thousand women and children in a few weeks is no mean feat.  Any other country that did that would have no-fly zones and sanctions applied to it.


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## Hollie (Dec 2, 2015)

montelatici said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> > montelatici said:
> ...


I understand that Hamas emailed the Islamic Air Force to enforce the no-fly zone but their planes were grounded due to lack of bailing wire and balsa wood.


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## Kondor3 (Dec 2, 2015)

montelatici said:


> ...Killing more than a thousand women and children in a few weeks is no mean feat.  Any other country that did that would have no-fly zones and sanctions applied to it.


Yep. Fun, ain't it? Look at all those military targets the Israelis hit. And only a thousand collateral casualties.

Considering the illegal proximity of Hamas war assets to civilian populations, that was pretty darned good shooting, with minimal collaterals.


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## montelatici (Dec 2, 2015)

Kondor3 said:


> montelatici said:
> 
> 
> > ...Killing more than a thousand women and children in a few weeks is no mean feat.  Any other country that did that would have no-fly zones and sanctions applied to it.
> ...



70% civilian casualties is not very good actually.  But if you say so.


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## Billo_Really (Dec 2, 2015)

When the Israeli's drop 2000 pound bombs that take out entire neighborhoods,  warning residents is a moot point.


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## Hollie (Dec 2, 2015)

montelatici said:


> Kondor3 said:
> 
> 
> > montelatici said:
> ...


Your heroes with Hamas initiate wars from civilian / residential areas. It's more than just a little disingenuous to whine about civilian casualties when those civilians are explicitly put in harms way by Hamas terrorists using those civilians as cover.

Have you thought to email the Ummah and ask if Hamas could borrow the military uniforms that Hizbollocks stumbled upon _after_ they were trounced by the IDF in that Lebanon skirmish?


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## Billo_Really (Dec 2, 2015)

Hollie said:


> What deliberate targeting of civilians by the Israelis would that be?


75% of the casualties were civilians.

That's not by mistake.


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## Billo_Really (Dec 2, 2015)

Hollie said:


> Why don't you address the fact that Israel takes measures to warn civilians prior to operations targeting Islamic terrorists.


It doesn't matter if they warn them or not, it is still illegal to target them.


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## P F Tinmore (Dec 3, 2015)

Billo_Really said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> > Why don't you address the fact that Israel takes measures to warn civilians prior to operations targeting Islamic terrorists.
> ...


Of course this is just more *Israeli bullshit.*

First, the meaning of the ludicrous term “buffer zone”:…which also explains why there was a massacre in Shejaiya this week. What a coincidence that that’s the very area Israel decided to annex!


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## Kondor3 (Dec 3, 2015)

Billo_Really said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> > What deliberate targeting of civilians by the Israelis would that be?
> ...


No.

That's collateral casualties, incurred during the course of legitimate military targeting operations against enemy war assets.

War assets that were illegally and unethically positioned alongside and amongst civilian population centers, mosques, schools, hospitals, etc.

Don't want your civilians hurt?

Stop hiding behind the skirts of your women and children.


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## Kondor3 (Dec 3, 2015)

P F Tinmore said:


> Billo_Really said:
> 
> 
> > Hollie said:
> ...


Buffer zones are indicative of a desire to minimize civilian casualties, not intentionally create them.

But, just look at that map, and tell us that the Gazans have any future whatsoever, where they are now.

They don't.

The so-called Palestinians need to pack up and leave.

In the long run, none of this 'buffer zone' bullshit makes any difference whatsoever.

The land belongs to Israel now, not the squatters, and the Israelis are coming to get it.

One step at a time... one hectare at a time... one city-block at a time... whatever.

Time for the Palestinians to wake-up, face Reality, and take their families out of there.

There is no - zero - future to be hand, by the Palestinians hanging-about the Gaza Strip.

Everything else... everything... is subordinate to that macro-level process... and is mere minutiae and sidebar fluff by comparison.

The small stuff is, ultimately, meaningless.

And, in the final analysis, nobody really cares all that much, beyond the domains of Islam, and even there, this 67-year-old endless agitation has grown old and tiresome.

Leave.

While you still can.

Before your nasty Hamas masters sucker you into dying for them.

Before your pathetic militias are slaughtered and more thousands of innocents are killed, unnecessarily.

Either way, the outcome is going to be the same.

Israel wins - you lose.

Snap out of it.

Leave.


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## Kondor3 (Dec 3, 2015)

Billo_Really said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> > Why don't you address the fact that Israel takes measures to warn civilians prior to operations targeting Islamic terrorists.
> ...


Good thing for the Israelis, then, that they do not intentionally target civilians, as a matter of policy.

Stop embedding war assets amongst civilians and the number of civilian casualties will be dramatically reduced.

The choice is squarely in the lap of the Neanderthals of Hamas.


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## Kondor3 (Dec 3, 2015)

P F Tinmore said:


> ...Of course this is just more Israeli bullshit...


"...But it's very *good* bullshit..."

It's working.

The Israelis go to extraordinary lengths to minimize civilian casualties, for both humanitarian and propaganda reasons.

They don't want those people dead.

They just want them gone.

The tightening of the noose continues.

Those with an ounce of brains will leave.

Heading for Jordan.

I also hear that Syria has a negative population flow.

Another possible place for relocation.

After all... better to live under a Muslim dictator (Assad) than under local dictators (Hamas) that routinely get thousands of you killed through stupidity.


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## Kondor3 (Dec 3, 2015)

P F Tinmore said:


> ...What a coincidence that that’s the very area Israel decided to annex!...


Truly an _*amazing*_ co-inky-dinky... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




But that's just land-grab stuff... and not prima facie evidence of intentional targeting... merely heightened operational activity, in the area in question.


----------



## Phoenall (Dec 3, 2015)

Billo_Really said:


> jillian said:
> 
> 
> > that's false, anti-Semite loon.
> ...







 Is this the law according to billy boy then, as it sure aint the law according to IHL and the Geneva conventions. They state that it is a war crime to use civilian structures for ANY military purpose. Once used this way the structures become a valid target for military action and any civilians killed are the fault of the side using the structures for military purposes.


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## Phoenall (Dec 3, 2015)

Billo_Really said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> > Nothing in your comments refutes the biases that have become typical UN  prattle. Your whining about UN Watch does nothing but allow you the opportunity to promote your own biases.
> ...






 Right up until the nation who had control of the land gives it up and makes it free for all. You forget that the land was occupied in 1948 by Jordan who then annexed the land before casting it adrift when the Palestinians tried to overthrow the rule of law.

 Now when will you provide the evidence of the Israeli's deliberately targeting civilians as I cant find any other that propaganda and blood libels.


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## Phoenall (Dec 3, 2015)

montelatici said:


> It is almost as if you intend to make yourself ignorant of the facts.  I mean stating:
> 
> " the ICJ is nothing more than an advisory entity with no arm of enforcement."
> 
> ...







 So this means the UN has no jurisdiction over the USA as they don't agree with the ICJ and opted out of its control.

 The same charter says that the land is Jewish and that the muslims have no rights to it, so why do you cherry pick the parts you want ?


----------



## Phoenall (Dec 3, 2015)

montelatici said:


> "Security Council resolutions are non-binding. I pointed that out to you previously."
> 
> What?????? You are digging such a deep hole.  Your strongest supporters are cringing.
> 
> Pursuant to Article 25 of the Charter Security Council Resolutions are binding on all members of the United Nations.







 NOPE try again, only this time get a 10 year old child to explain what it means.


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## Phoenall (Dec 3, 2015)

montelatici said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> > fanger said:
> ...







 According to the pallywood mouthpiece Al Jezeera, the same rag that told the world the majority of those killed in gaza were terrorists.


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## Phoenall (Dec 3, 2015)

montelatici said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> > Quite clearly, warnings to civilians have the unintended consequence of alerting your Islamic terrorist heroes of the location of intended strikes.
> ...








 The 50% of gaza that is open land where the hamas cowards refuse to fire from in case they get hurt. Or they could have taken up the offer from Egypt and went there before hamas closed the door stopping them from leaving.


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## Phoenall (Dec 3, 2015)

Hollie said:


> montelatici said:
> 
> 
> > Hollie said:
> ...








 The UN has also stated that the schools were not empty, but where open and in use by children. Further that caretakers had been told to stay away as hamas had put their own people in charge.



Explosive: UN admits Palestinians fired rockets from UNRWA schools «  View from Geneva


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## P F Tinmore (Dec 3, 2015)

Kondor3 said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Billo_Really said:
> ...


If you did not understand my post you should have asked instead of just saying something stupid.


----------



## Phoenall (Dec 3, 2015)

montelatici said:


> montelatici said:
> 
> 
> > Indeependent said:
> ...







 Making them valid targets for any action then or at a later date. That is the law as laid down by the ICJ.

 But what makes it worse is they used schools that were in use and the UN freely admit this



Explosive: UN admits Palestinians fired rockets from UNRWA schools «  View from Geneva

*Hamas and/or Islamic Jihad stored rockets in schools that were in active use by children.* During the war, former PLO lawyer Diana Buttu famously said on Al Jazeera that “the rockets that were found in the schools in UNRWA were schools that are not being used by anybody—school is out, I’ll have you know.” However, in the UNRWA Gaza Beach Elementary Co-educational “B” School, on 16 July 2014, the UN Board of Inquiry notes that the school gate was unlocked during the period leading up to the incident “in order to allow children access to the schoolyard.” School was out, but UNRWA was inviting the children back in to play.


----------



## Phoenall (Dec 3, 2015)

montelatici said:


> Kondor3 said:
> 
> 
> > montelatici said:
> ...






*Hamas and/or Islamic Jihad stored rockets in schools that were in active use by children.* During the war, former PLO lawyer Diana Buttu famously said on Al Jazeera that “the rockets that were found in the schools in UNRWA were schools that are not being used by anybody—school is out, I’ll have you know.” However, in the UNRWA Gaza Beach Elementary Co-educational “B” School, on 16 July 2014, the UN Board of Inquiry notes that the school gate was unlocked during the period leading up to the incident “in order to allow children access to the schoolyard.” School was out, but UNRWA was inviting the children back in to play.




Explosive: UN admits Palestinians fired rockets from UNRWA schools «  View from Geneva


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## Phoenall (Dec 3, 2015)

montelatici said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> > montelatici said:
> ...








 Cant be propaganda if it is a UN source document can it ?




Explosive: UN admits Palestinians fired rockets from UNRWA schools «  View from Geneva

*Hamas and/or Islamic Jihad stored rockets in schools that were in active use by children.* During the war, former PLO lawyer Diana Buttu famously said on Al Jazeera that “the rockets that were found in the schools in UNRWA were schools that are not being used by anybody—school is out, I’ll have you know.” However, in the UNRWA Gaza Beach Elementary Co-educational “B” School, on 16 July 2014, the UN Board of Inquiry notes that the school gate was unlocked during the period leading up to the incident “in order to allow children access to the schoolyard.” School was out, but UNRWA was inviting the children back in to play.


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## P F Tinmore (Dec 3, 2015)

Phoenall said:


> Billo_Really said:
> 
> 
> > jillian said:
> ...


OK, but the rules of distinction and proportionality still apply.


----------



## Phoenall (Dec 3, 2015)

montelatici said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> > montelatici said:
> ...







 Jordan managed to mass murder tens of thousands in a few weeks as well, but then their Palestinians were locked up in a cage making in easy. They had no weapons with which to fight back with and you remain silent on this genocide and ethnic cleansing by deliberate targeting of civilians.


----------



## Phoenall (Dec 3, 2015)

P F Tinmore said:


> Phoenall said:
> 
> 
> > Billo_Really said:
> ...







 And where can these laws be found then as a google search brings up nothing but maybe's and gonnado's.  Who made these laws and what treaty are they from that entered into the law books ?


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## Phoenall (Dec 3, 2015)

montelatici said:


> Kondor3 said:
> 
> 
> > montelatici said:
> ...







 Not according to Al Jazeera who say in was 85% terrorist deaths, and had to take down the piece before it became an embarrassment to islam.


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## Phoenall (Dec 3, 2015)

Billo_Really said:


> When the Israeli's drop 2000 pound bombs that take out entire neighborhoods,  warning residents is a moot point.








 And still no evidenced to support your claim. When did this happen and who gave the orders to attack in this manner. Not even the US would veto any resolutions against Israel if this was the case. And no evidence from biased and partisan sites that leads back to a single Nazi source like you usually do.


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## Phoenall (Dec 3, 2015)

Billo_Really said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> > What deliberate targeting of civilians by the Israelis would that be?
> ...







 NOPE they were 85% terrorist, and this was posted on the Al Jazeera web site the week after the war ended.


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## P F Tinmore (Dec 3, 2015)

Phoenall said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Phoenall said:
> ...


 Why do you post on this board?


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## P F Tinmore (Dec 3, 2015)

Phoenall said:


> Billo_Really said:
> 
> 
> > Hollie said:
> ...


Link?


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## Phoenall (Dec 3, 2015)

Billo_Really said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> > Why don't you address the fact that Israel takes measures to warn civilians prior to operations targeting Islamic terrorists.
> ...







 Not if they have become militia making them valid military targets. But it is like saying that the US should not have attacked Japan when it sunk the fleet in Pearl Harbour


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## Phoenall (Dec 3, 2015)

P F Tinmore said:


> Billo_Really said:
> 
> 
> > Hollie said:
> ...








 LINK to this alleged annexation that no one else knows about but you ?


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## Phoenall (Dec 3, 2015)

P F Tinmore said:


> Phoenall said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...






 To put idiots right when they make false representations, so how about a link to these alleged laws that don't exist. Or will that make you look like a complete idiot and a LIAR ?  Now stop deflecting when you are backed into a corner and admit you were wrong.


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## Phoenall (Dec 3, 2015)

P F Tinmore said:


> Phoenall said:
> 
> 
> > Billo_Really said:
> ...






 Here you go




Latest Al Jazeera Data Shows Gaza Casualties Still Mostly Combat-Aged Males

Data released by Qatar-based Al Jazeera continues to show that most of the dead in Gaza have been young, combatant-aged men, rather than women, children or seniors, and in contrast to Hamas’s own reports from the front to media, accusing the Israel Defense Forces of indiscriminate killing.


 And here is a list of those killed from one of your sources



Names of Palestinians Killed in the War on Gaza since 8 July - International Middle East Media Center


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## P F Tinmore (Dec 3, 2015)

Phoenall said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Billo_Really said:
> ...


It is not my fault that you can't keep up.


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## Phoenall (Dec 3, 2015)

P F Tinmore said:


> Phoenall said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...






 Its not my fault that you need to LIE to defend hamas and its terrorism, so about this evidence when can we see it. Or will it prove that you are a brainwashed idiot and a LIAR


----------



## P F Tinmore (Dec 3, 2015)

Phoenall said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Phoenall said:
> ...


Irrelevant number.

Combat age has nothing to do with military service.


----------



## Phoenall (Dec 3, 2015)

P F Tinmore said:


> Phoenall said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...







 Changing your tune when profiling proves you wrong now, wasn't it you that said hamas does not have an army, so they cant have an age for enlistment.


----------



## Billo_Really (Dec 3, 2015)

Kondor3 said:


> No.
> 
> That's collateral casualties, incurred during the course of legitimate military targeting operations against enemy war assets.
> 
> ...


Unfortunately for you, no evidence of this has been found.


----------



## Billo_Really (Dec 3, 2015)

Kondor3 said:


> Good thing for the Israelis, then, that they do not intentionally target civilians, as a matter of policy.


If that was true, they wouldn't be dropping knives next to them and telling them to pick'em up.



Kondor3 said:


> Stop embedding war assets amongst civilians and the number of civilian casualties will be dramatically reduced.


They don't, but they're targeted anyway.



Kondor3 said:


> The choice is squarely in the lap of the Neanderthals of Hamas.


Wrong.  The choice is on the Israeli's.

End the occupation, or eventually be forced to.


----------



## Billo_Really (Dec 3, 2015)

Phoenall said:


> Is this the law according to billy boy then, as it sure aint the law according to IHL and the Geneva conventions. They state that it is a war crime to use civilian structures for ANY military purpose. Once used this way the structures become a valid target for military action and any civilians killed are the fault of the side using the structures for military purposes.


That's not what it say's.

_*Military necessity* is a legal concept used in international humanitarian law (IHL) as part of the legal justification for attacks on legitimate military targets that may have adverse, even terrible, consequences for civilians and civilian objects.  

There are three constraints upon the free exercise of military necessity. _
_First, any *attack must be intended and tend toward the military defeat of the enemy*; attacks not so intended cannot be justified by military necessity because they would have no military purpose. 
Second, even an attack aimed at the military weakening of the enemy *must not cause harm to civilians or civilian objects that is excessive in relation to the concrete and direct military advantage* anticipated. 
Third, military necessity *cannot justify violation of the other rules of IHL.*_​


----------



## Phoenall (Dec 3, 2015)

Billo_Really said:


> Kondor3 said:
> 
> 
> > No.
> ...







 Even though many pieces of evidence have been produced. From the Indian reporters video of the rocket launcher outside the hotel to the pictures of children swarming round terrorists firing at the Israeli's. Do you want them again, and the ICC investigation done by Goldsmith proved that they were using human shields


----------



## Phoenall (Dec 3, 2015)

Billo_Really said:


> Kondor3 said:
> 
> 
> > Good thing for the Israelis, then, that they do not intentionally target civilians, as a matter of policy.
> ...






 Out of the persons own bag if you look again,

 They do as 50% of gaza is open space were they could fire to their hearts content.

 Already tried and the violence and terrorism increased 500%, so who will force the Israelis to lift the occupation when it is against international law.


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## P F Tinmore (Dec 3, 2015)

Phoenall said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Phoenall said:
> ...


Using Israel's logic, all Israelis between 18 and...whatever are legitimate targets and all others are human shields.


----------



## Hollie (Dec 3, 2015)

P F Tinmore said:


> Phoenall said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...


Unfortunately, Tinny, each of these "Jooooos target civilians" threads sink when you and the identifiable Jooooooooo hating cabal cannot combat the irrefutable argument that Israel has demonstrated restraint in the face of Pal'istanian islamic terrorism.

You have no counter to the fact that Israel has spent billions of dollars to develop LESS cost effective weapons for the sole purpose of reducing civilian casualties. You say nothing of the recognized capability of Israeli strategic forces to reduce fundamentalist Islam in the areas occupied by Pal'istanian Islamic terrorists to a burning pile of ash within one week with almost no reduction of their nation power, and the restraint from using such power demonstrated by their leaders. 

You cannot reconcile the fact that you argue the Israeli's wish to kill Pal'istanian civilians with the truth that you cannot conjure up a reason for such action, much less an explanation for precision munitions development, reduced use of particularly effective cluster, mine and incendiary munitions, and extremely tight Rules of Engagement for Israeli forces in battle zones. 

And when someone brings up these irreconcilable faults in your arguments, you dump some goofy youtube video about something entirely unrelated, try to make a statement accusing Israeli's broadly of ignorance or being beholden to the media that is considerably less controlled than in almost any other nation in the world, or simply ignore it and let the thread sink. 

Reconcile these issues. Now. Or stop posting your nonsensical messages. 

Answer now, how you can say that the Israeli's WISH to have civilian casualties when they have spent many times the sum of Pal'istanian welfare checks on weapons that limit such casualties. 

Answer now, how can you say that the Israeli's wish for war when actions prove that Israel has repeatedly returned land to Islamic terrorists in hopes for peace. If Israel had wanted to retain lands captured in wars of aggression initiated by islamics, why did they make peace offerings by retirning those lands? 

Or, if you feel too threatened, just make some bogus statement about the Jews controlling the media or some other stereotypically stupid comment about "the Poor, Oppressed Pal'istanian islamic terrorists" (with a welfare program dedicated to their sole use to further their status as an invented people with an invented national identity), and go back to your cliff's notes to Mein Kampf.


----------



## Indeependent (Dec 3, 2015)

Why discuss anything with someone who gets their "artifacts" from Pro-Terrorist sites?


----------



## Kondor3 (Dec 3, 2015)

P F Tinmore said:


> Kondor3 said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...


Thank you for your feedback.


----------



## Kondor3 (Dec 3, 2015)

Billo_Really said:


> Kondor3 said:
> 
> 
> > No.
> ...


The No. of independent news service photographs of Hamas rocket-launchers and ops-centers embedded within residential neighborhoods is overwhelming.


----------



## Kondor3 (Dec 3, 2015)

Billo_Really said:


> Kondor3 said:
> 
> 
> > Good thing for the Israelis, then, that they do not intentionally target civilians, as a matter of policy.
> ...


Automatic gainsay is a weak debating tactic, utilized by those proceeding from a weak position.

Endless rounds of 'Did Too' - 'Did Not' - do not shed any additional light on the subject of Israel generating unintentional collateral casualties as they hammer legitimate Hamas military targets comprised of war-assets which Hamas has embedded within their own civilian population centers in a most cowardly fashion.


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## Billo_Really (Dec 3, 2015)

Hollie said:


> Answer now, how you can say that the Israeli's WISH to have civilian casualties when they have spent many times the sum of Pal'istanian welfare checks on weapons that limit such casualties.


Like 2000 pound bombs that take out entire neighborhoods?


----------



## Phoenall (Dec 4, 2015)

P F Tinmore said:


> Phoenall said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...







 LINK ?


----------



## Phoenall (Dec 4, 2015)

Billo_Really said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> > Answer now, how you can say that the Israeli's WISH to have civilian casualties when they have spent many times the sum of Pal'istanian welfare checks on weapons that limit such casualties.
> ...








 Evidence of this, and not unproven pictures of Syria or Iraq this time. Just saying that 2000lb bombs are dropped is not evidence of 2000lb bombs being dropped. You need to substantiate your claims with evidence that cant be questioned


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## P F Tinmore (Dec 4, 2015)

Kondor3 said:


> Billo_Really said:
> 
> 
> > Kondor3 said:
> ...


Examples?


----------



## Hollie (Dec 4, 2015)

P F Tinmore said:


> Kondor3 said:
> 
> 
> > Billo_Really said:
> ...


Yes. Examples such as were posted only two days ago in  an active thread.

Go find them and educate yourself instead of asking others to constantly reiterate what you already know but are in _de-Nile_ of.


----------



## Phoenall (Dec 4, 2015)

P F Tinmore said:


> Kondor3 said:
> 
> 
> > Billo_Really said:
> ...























 Do you want any more ?


----------



## P F Tinmore (Dec 4, 2015)

Phoenall said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Kondor3 said:
> ...


 People casually standing around don't look like people under any threat.


----------



## Phoenall (Dec 4, 2015)

P F Tinmore said:


> Phoenall said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...







 Nice duck, but you asked for examples and now you deny them

 Try these then


----------



## Hollie (Dec 4, 2015)

P F Tinmore said:


> Phoenall said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...


...... because the video, photographic, eye-witness, UN recorded and other documentation is all a part of a global conspiracy.

Seek treatment for your diagnosis of _Pal'istanian Mentality_


----------



## RoccoR (Dec 4, 2015)

Phoenall, Hollie, et al,

Everyone already knows this.  Even the UN Secretary General Ban Ki-Moon and the International Criminal Court (ICC) Chief Prosecutor Fatou Bensouda knows this.  It is not that the "Truth" is not "Out There;" it is politics.   Whether a Political Personality, like Secretary General Ban Ki-Moon, who possesses knowledge or evidence, not otherwise protected, concerning a member nation or observer nation like the State of Palestine, who intentionally used the cover of the UN, by locating legitimate military targets in Densely Populated Areas or adjacent to UN facilities and protected activities, for the purpose of to rendering Palestinian terrorist, insurgent, and asymmetric forces, and leadership immune from Israeli targeting ”IS NOT maintaining the highest standards of ethical conduct which lend any public confidence in the Organization of the United Nations.

Whether an International Prosecutor, like Fatou Bensouda, who fails to speak-out and or reveal such knowledge under the color of the UN, justice and honesty, or fails to reveal such evidence that UN Representatives and activities are providing aid and support to alliance between Hostile Arab Palestinians (HoAP) and are actively engaged in the selective prosecution Israel can be recognized, then it is a corrupt body.  And when the UN renders legal defense efforts to the Palestinians entities --- they are corrupt.   Failure to recognize that the HoAP have a history and long established pattern of criminal behaviors, and have effectively used UN ceasefires to prolong the conflict declared by the Arab Higher Committee in February 1948, they are corrupt.  Failure to look in the mirror and see there is a correlation between doing nothing to protect the the Jewish minority, the very same people the Allied Nations abandoned in WWII, from the open attack by the Arab League is corrupt.  And have done virtually nothing since.

Neither the ICC or the UN proper have earned any public confidence.  In particular, the ICC has allowed the HoAP to abuse of judicial process through the improper use of criminal process by permitting the long standing aggressors of seven decades, to conducts acts of war and commit terrorist provocations, and then claim foul by making War Crime charges is not instilling confidence.  It is as if the Arab Palestinians had nothing to do with starting the Civil War prior to 1948, did not participate in the 1948 War after the Arab League attacked in force, did not know anything about the 1972 Munich Olympics attack, and the thousand other bombing and acts of terrorism since then.
This all diminishes public confidence in the International legal system.

When impartiality is present, public confidence in the international judicial system is enhanced; but when the UN and ICC openly permit the HoAP to manipulate the system, THEN public confidence in the judicial system is eroded.



Phoenall said:


>


*(COMMENT)*

The international community know that the UN and ICRC intentionally allows Civilians and Civilian Objects from the Vicinity of their quasi-military operations.  The HoAP win either way.  If the Israelis do not respond, the HoAP wins the exchange.  If the Israelis respond and civilians are killed, the HoAP get to submit yet another frivolous war crimes complaint.  If the UN/ICRC allows the HoAP to use a Red Cross marked ambulances for tactical purposes, and the Israelis do not destroy it, then the HoAP win.  If the Israelis destroy the ambulance, then the HoAP use it as an example of how the IDF targets civilian medical activities.  If the HoAP kidnap and murder civilians in Israel, well that is just independent and unassociated crime; not terrorism.  The HoAP are always "freedom fighters" and not jihadist that have dedicated themselves to returning the entire territory from the Jordan River to the Mediterranean Sea to an Arab controlled entity.

Neither the UN nor the ICC take notice of these declarations and intentions.  It is probably not worth the effort to even familiarize yourself with the mechanisms behind the UN and the ICC.  They are not really worthy of any consideration.  In fact, as a whole, until such time as the EU resolved itself to clean-up its enclaves of Islamic Militant Residential Districts that have become ever more prominent, we should not even render EU member nations much respect until they take a stand against radicalization.

Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## montelatici (Dec 4, 2015)

The one and only independent investigation of the attack on Gaza  came up with far different conclusions.  But, Rocco the propagandist knows that he only parrots Viscious Israeli Jew Occupier (VIGO) propaganda.

Physicians for Human Rights-Israel (PHR-Israel) recruited 8 independent international medical experts, who were not affiliated with either Israeli or Palestinian parties involved in the conflict. Experts were recruited in the fields of forensic pathology, emergency medicine, public health, paediatrics and paediatric intensive care, and health and human rights.* Participants were chosen because of their professional expertise and their freedom from affiliation to any state or party in Israel and the occupied Palestinian territories (OPT), or to any relevant political body in any other country.
*
Just a gist of the report and how the VIJO managed to murder over a thousand women and children.  

"• The overwhelming majority of injuries causing death or requiring hospitalisation seen by the Fact Finding Mission (FFM) ed. were the result of explosion or crush injuries, often multiple complex injuries; • A majority of hospitalised patients interviewed reported people being injured or killed while in, or very close to, their homes or those of relatives and neighbours; • Numerous cases in which - significant numbers of casualties including members of the same family and rescuers were killed or injured in a single incident; - ‘double tap’ or multiple consecutive strikes on a single location led to multiple civilian casualties and to injuries and deaths among rescuers; - heavy explosives were used in residential neighbourhoods, resulting in multiple civilian casualties; - emergency medical evacuation was not enabled and/or in which medical teams were killed or injured in the course of evacuation of the injured (notably in Shuja’iya, Gaza City); • At least one case in which a mine-breaching explosive device (tsefa shirion) was used in a residential street in Khuza’a, Khan Younis, causing massive destruction. • At least one case, of Shuhada’ Al Aqsa Hospital in Deir Al Balah, where several people were killed and injured in what was apparently a deliberate attack on the hospital on 21 July 2014. An in-depth study of the town of Khuza’a suggests that: • A convoy of hundreds of civilians came under fire while attempting to flee the town on 23 July 2014; • A medical clinic in which civilians and injured people were sheltering after this attack was hit by missiles, causing deaths and injuries; • A seriously injured 6-year-old child was not assisted and his evacuation was obstructed despite eye contact with troops on the ground on 24 July. He later died; • Civilians in a house occupied by Israeli soldiers suffered abuse and ill-treatment including beatings, denial of food and water, and use as human shields. One was shot dead at close range. 10 In addition, the FFM examined: • The strains placed on hospitals in Gaza during the attacks; • Problems with referral and evacuation of patients from Gaza hospitals to hospitals outside; • Long-term internal displacement in Gaza as a result of the partial or total destruction of about 18,000 homes; • Long-term psychosocial and mental health damage caused by this and previous wars; • An increased need for rehabilitation services and insufficient current resources in Gaza to meet them. Conclusions • The attacks were characterised by heavy and unpredictable bombardments of civilian neighbourhoods in a manner that failed to discriminate between legitimate targets and protected populations and caused widespread destruction of homes and civilian property. Such indiscriminate attacks, by aircraft, drones, artillery, tanks and gunships, were unlikely to have been the result of decisions made by individual soldiers or commanders; they must have entailed approval from top-level decision-makers in the Israeli military and/or government. • The initiators of the attacks, despite giving some prior warnings of these attacks, failed to take the requisite precautions that would effectively enable the safe evacuation of the civilian population, including provision of safe spaces and routes. As a result, there was no guaranteed safe space in the Gaza Strip, nor were there any safe escape routes from it. • In numerous cases double or multiple consecutive strikes on a single location led to multiple civilian casualties and to injuries and deaths among rescuers. • Coordination of medical evacuation was often denied and many attacks on medical teams and facilities were reported. It is not clear whether such contravention of medical neutrality was the result of a policy established by senior decision-makers, a general permissive atmosphere leading to the flouting of norms, or the result of individual choices made on the ground during armed clashes. • In Khuza’a, the reported conduct of specific troops in the area is indicative of......................"

https://gazahealthattack.files.wordpress.com/2015/01/gazareport_eng.pdf


----------



## docmauser1 (Dec 4, 2015)

fanger said:


> Not all civilians are terrorists


When we see palistanian "Salam Now!!", marching on Ramallah, then we will talk, of course.


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## docmauser1 (Dec 4, 2015)

montelatici said:


> Physicians for Human Rights-Israel ...


... and George Soros. That's truly hilarious. Any more incredible source?


----------



## montelatici (Dec 4, 2015)

docmauser1 said:


> montelatici said:
> 
> 
> > Physicians for Human Rights-Israel ...
> ...



George Soros is Jewish. It is you who are hilarious.  Speaking before doing any research.


----------



## RoccoR (Dec 4, 2015)

montelatici,  et al,

I read the Independent Medical Fact-Finding Mission --- Gaza 2014 and was impressed by the professionalism of the publication; but NOT of the findings or recommendations.  For a Forensic Pathology report, it is a decent  executive summary.  As an Investigative Report, it is woefully absent of evidence.



montelatici said:


> The one and only independent investigation of the attack on Gaza  came up with far different conclusions.  But, Rocco the propagandist knows that he only parrots Viscious Israeli Jew Occupier (VIGO) propaganda.
> 
> Physicians for Human Rights-Israel (PHR-Israel) recruited 8 independent international medical experts, who were not affiliated with either Israeli or Palestinian parties involved in the conflict. Experts were recruited in the fields of forensic pathology, emergency medicine, public health, paediatrics and paediatric intensive care, and health and human rights.* Participants were chosen because of their professional expertise and their freedom from affiliation to any state or party in Israel and the occupied Palestinian territories (OPT), or to any relevant political body in any other country.
> *
> Just a gist of the report and how the VIJO managed to murder over a thousand women and children.


*(COMMENT)*

First, I have no quarrel with the composition of the Fact-Finding Mission (FFM) Team.  But you have to remember that while all seem to be exceptionally experienced in their specialty, not a single one of them is a professional intelligence, counterintelligence, law enforcement, or Prosecution Investigator of any kind. 

•  1@  Forensic Anthropology
•  3@  Forensic Pathologist (Coroner/Medical Examiner)
•  1@  Pediatrician
•  1@  Emergency Medicine Physician
•  1@  Clinical Specialist in Public Health and Family Medicine
•  1@  Registered Nurse and International Health Expert (Middle East Experienced)​And While I think that this composite team would be an excellent choice for establishing or determining the cause of death _(by examining a corpse)_ or the proximate cause of injuries and trauma; I'm not sure that they have the knowledge, skills, and abilities, to collect physical evidence from the scene of a crime _(there is some question as to whether the alleged scene of the 68 crimes -- were even visited and subject to a rigorous examination)_; or if any of the 68 alleged crimes scenes _(for which their were interviewed witnesses or survivor statements)_ were reconstruction to identify critical events necessary to establish the standard for the opening of a criminal case and to derive the logical conclusions relative to the facts _(a criminal report)_.  In fact, from this report, it cannot be established, with any degree of clarity, if the 68 surviving victims and 75 fatally injured were a result multiple events and exactly how many crime scenes and attacks are involved.  What was made clear was that approximately 2000 people killed of which 1500 remained unidentified as of 20 August 2014. 

The first FFM Team, entered the Gaza Strip on 19 August 2014; one week before the open-ended cease-fire was reached on 26 August 2014.  Site visits were not timely.  Limited evidence was collected. 

First, let us acknowledge that there was sufficient evidence to support the following:

1. The information provided by the photographs was somewhat limited by technique of examination.

2. The majority of the injuries were characteristic of explosion injuries.

3. The majority of the decedents suffered multiple injuries of various types of trauma (e.g.,
burns, blunt trauma and perforation injuries in a single decedent). This finding confirms the
similar situation described in patients treated in hospital.

4. Several photographs demonstrated the presence of a white-gray powder material over body
surfaces. It was not possible to determine whether this was detritus from collapsed buildings
or some other material connected with the explosion. Therefore, the tissue samples collected
and retained by the Forensics Department require further scientific evaluation.​
Some accusations relative to medical delays, evacuation delays, and (my personal favorite)
Warnings not followed by an attack, were just ridiculous.  There has never been a battle when once the engagement begins, there is a safe place anywhere on the battlefield.  And while the IDF did attempt to give warnings prior to an attack, there were times when, attacks and fire missions were aborted as a result of new tactical intelligence was consumed.

BUT, there is no evidence to support the accusations made that:

Several violations of human rights and international humanitarian law, stem from actions and decisions by multiple levels of the chain of military command.  There was no evidence presented that gave direct information of multiple levels in the IDF chain of command directing an intentional violation of customary and IHL.

The claim that the IDF Heavily bombarded of civilian neighborhoods was unfounded.  The IDF, to the extend feasible --- verified the legitimacy of military targets and objectives.  The IDF did (when practical and possible), as a precautions to minimize incidental civilian losses, issued advanced warning prior to an attack.

I don't think I need to remind anyone that everyone on the battlefield is at risk.   There is no real evidence that the IDF intentionally directed attacks on medical evacuation.

The IDF did not intentionally shooting unarmed civilians.  While there were civilians wounded, there was not evidence to suggest that the deaths were not collateral or unintentional.

and finally to abuse and ill-treatment

The IDF did not use civilians as human shields and practices that could amount to Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment (CIDT).  Anyone who has handled prisoners, knows that the prisoner is never allowed behind you.  That is especially true for prisoners that are suspected of Jihadist Training.

There is no evidence that the IDF initiated attacks on a mass civilian exodus.  The removal of Palestinians Civilians and Civilian Objects from the Vicinity of the battlefield is the responsibility of the Palestinians.  It was the duty of the Palestinians, to the extent feasible, to remove civilian persons and objects under its control from the vicinity of military objectives.

There will always be those that suffer trauma, psychosocial and mental health problems as an outcome of the armed conflict.  There is just no way around that.  Military conflict is no a paintball game.

Allegations regarding irregular weapons; yah I saw this.  I suspect that this evidence is a result of ancillary presence of secondary debris picked-up in the blast.  I saw this remark by forensics that talked about finding "computer chips’ with Sony markings embedded as shrapnel in people’s bodies;" along with the accusation of using "flechettes."  I studied the picture of the debris removed and find it much to large to be a "
flechette" and much the wrong shape.  In one case, it looks like a washer or a small gear; while in the other case, it look like a copper fitting remnant.  But in neither case were either result of some exotic projectile weapon.  If I did not know better, I would say it looked much like something I've after an Suicide Bombing or a Improvised Explosive Device.  But then that would be evidence of a bomb making factory; a legitimate military target.

I could probably write a book on this one report.  But needless to say, it really is not necessary. 

Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## Hollie (Dec 4, 2015)

montelatici said:


> The one and only independent investigation of the attack on Gaza  came up with far different conclusions.  But, Rocco the propagandist knows that he only parrots Viscious Israeli Jew Occupier (VIGO) propaganda.
> 
> Physicians for Human Rights-Israel (PHR-Israel) recruited 8 independent international medical experts, who were not affiliated with either Israeli or Palestinian parties involved in the conflict. Experts were recruited in the fields of forensic pathology, emergency medicine, public health, paediatrics and paediatric intensive care, and health and human rights.* Participants were chosen because of their professional expertise and their freedom from affiliation to any state or party in Israel and the occupied Palestinian territories (OPT), or to any relevant political body in any other country.
> *
> ...



The result of israel's response to acts of aggression from Islamic terrorists is that Islamic terrorists get killed.

Not surprisingly, the "findings" of your cut and paste appear on someone's personal blog.


----------



## RoccoR (Dec 4, 2015)

Hollie,  et al,

At first blush, your impression is correct --- BUT it is a false impression.  That is just the way the report is written.  And if you read the report, you will no doubt note that different sections were authored by different Team Members. 



Hollie said:


> The result of israel's response to acts of aggression from Islamic terrorists is that Islamic terrorists get killed.
> Not surprisingly, the "findings" of your cut and paste appear on someone's personal blog.


*(COMMENT)*

There are several report systems that use this writing style.  Oddly enough, there are several famous investigative agencies that use this style; but not for the same reason.  Most investigative agencies write in this style as a means of institutionalized results _(some intentionally attempting to induce perjury) _that can be later used to apply pressure on the interviewees.   But in this case it is done to make the most of the limited information, - expressed in such a way as if it contained more specific statements then what were actually acquired.  The report must be written in such a ways as to oppose the occupation and make it appear that no aspect of the Arab-Israeli Conflict or the prolonged occupation rests at the feet of the Palestinians.   You will note that at no time in the report were the Palestinians held accountable for any outcome.

I applaud the  PHR-Israel in there mission to easy the suffering of those innocences hurt in the struggle, but I must keep reminding myself that the Israeli-Palestinian Physicians for Human Rights, came into existence in 1988, during the early months of the Palestinian uprising in the occupied territory.

I don't believe in coincidence.  

Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## docmauser1 (Dec 4, 2015)

montelatici said:


> docmauser1 said:
> 
> 
> > montelatici said:
> ...


Mucho funny. But then, all those, fond of the "arab spring" disasters, bankrolled by his foundations, may happily kiss his jewish arse. hehe Bth, the rainbow brigade is upset too, claiming two gazabadian homos were killed by a shockwave or somethink in their apartment. Our honorable montelatici should dig a relevant document up to add "weight" to "Physicians", of course, it will be appropriate. It would be nice to learn what the BDSM For Human Rights has to say too.


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## Challenger (Dec 5, 2015)

RoccoR said:


> First, I have no quarrel with the composition of the Fact-Finding Mission (FFM) Team. But you have to remember that while all seem to be exceptionally experienced in their specialty, not a single one of them is a professional intelligence, counterintelligence, law enforcement, or Prosecution Investigator of any kind.



Can you point out where there is a legal requirement  for a "professional intelligence, counterintelligence, law enforcement, or Prosecution Investigator" to participate in the initial evidence gathering phase of an investigation into war crimes?

Although the ICII (Institute for International Criminal Investigations) does not require such individuals to be present at inital investigations, can you categorically state that *none* of the investigators who produced the report were *not* ICII trained, or at least trained to a level acceptable to the ICII? 
.


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## Challenger (Dec 5, 2015)

RoccoR said:


> The report must be written in such a ways as to oppose the occupation and make it appear that no aspect of the Arab-Israeli Conflict or the prolonged occupation rests at the feet of the Palestinians. You will note that at no time in the report were the Palestinians held accountable for any outcome.



Drivel. Read some of the reports into the Rwanda genocide, or for that matter, reports on the Holocaust and you will find that, "at no time were the victims held accountable for any outcome."  That is not the purpose of the report.


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## Challenger (Dec 5, 2015)

RoccoR said:


> Allegations regarding irregular weapons; yah I saw this. I suspect that this evidence is a result of ancillary presence of secondary debris picked-up in the blast. I saw this remark by forensics that talked about finding "computer chips’ with Sony markings embedded as shrapnel in people’s bodies;" along with the accusation of using "flechettes." I studied the picture of the debris removed and find it much to large to be a "
> flechette" and much the wrong shape. In one case, it looks like a washer or a small gear; while in the other case, it look like a copper fitting remnant.



More drivel. 

Look again at page 53, that's definitely a flechette, and the bomb fragment states the Motorola logo is clealy visible. Also the report goes on to state on page 55, "Although Sony was cited, the team was shown remains of explosives with the Motorola logo embossed in them. It is unclear what these remains are and which patients they were associated with, and the team could not ascertain their source."

Blimey, Motorola are supplying Hamas! Hold the front page!


----------



## docmauser1 (Dec 5, 2015)

Challenger said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > The report must be written in such a ways as to oppose the occupation and make it appear that no aspect of the Arab-Israeli Conflict or the prolonged occupation rests at the feet of the Palestinians. You will note that at no time in the report were the Palestinians held accountable for any outcome.
> ...


One the best confirmations that, the "report" had been a witch-hunting expedition, as is always expected from any Soros-backed outfit, of course. We're pleased, indeed.


----------



## RoccoR (Dec 5, 2015)

Challenger,  et al,

I looked up the bio on every member of the Team.  NONE of them are professional investigators beyond their individual medical skill set.  



Challenger said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > First, I have no quarrel with the composition of the Fact-Finding Mission (FFM) Team. But you have to remember that while all seem to be exceptionally experienced in their specialty, not a single one of them is a professional intelligence, counterintelligence, law enforcement, or Prosecution Investigator of any kind.
> ...


*(COMMENT)*

Yes, note the KSA for the position _(read further the bolded blue link)_.

The IICI is not a government investigative activity.  It is a civilian school, and does not set the qualification standards for any criminal or law enforcement investigation.  Like the Southern Police Institute (SPI) is a college under the University of Louisville, these programs attempt to teach students to a standard.  However, neither the ICII or the (SPI) are, in and by themselves course programs for qualification.  They are more like that necessary for follow-on continuing education.  The qualification program in the US would be something on the order of (one of the five) - Federal Law Enforcement Training Centers (FLETC) of the US Government.  However, FLETC is not an acceptable qualification to be a War Crimes Investigator.

Just as it is necessary to be a graduate or equivalent to a graduate of the Police Academy South, Netherlands _(the most common source)_ in order to qualify for an entry level position as a  *UN War Crimes Investigator*, --- so it is that in order to be a member of the American Genocide and War Crimes Unit (GWCU), you have to be a Special Agent and a graduate of the FBI Academy, or the Joint Counterintelligence Training Academy (JCITA), or one of the approved Office of Counterintelligence (OCI); the three most common sources.

Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## RoccoR (Dec 5, 2015)

Challenger,  et al,

Pretty good.  You got it.



Challenger said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > The report must be written in such a ways as to oppose the occupation and make it appear that no aspect of the Arab-Israeli Conflict or the prolonged occupation rests at the feet of the Palestinians. You will note that at no time in the report were the Palestinians held accountable for any outcome.
> ...


*(COMMENT)*

These types of NGO and these types of Reports already have and set agenda and outcome.  The product was predetermined before the ink dried on the travel request.  In the case of the Arab-Israeli Conflict, the true victim is the Jewish People.  The Jewish People were the one in which the Arab League ganged-up on and attempted to destroy.  The jewish People were the victims of "Powerful Arab interests, both inside and outside Palestine, are defying the resolution of the General Assembly and are engaged in a deliberate effort to alter by force the settlement envisaged therein." _(First Special Report to the Security Council:  The Problem of Security in Palestine --- A/AC.21/9 S/676  16 February 1948)_

Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## Hollie (Dec 5, 2015)

Challenger said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > Allegations regarding irregular weapons; yah I saw this. I suspect that this evidence is a result of ancillary presence of secondary debris picked-up in the blast. I saw this remark by forensics that talked about finding "computer chips’ with Sony markings embedded as shrapnel in people’s bodies;" along with the accusation of using "flechettes." I studied the picture of the debris removed and find it much to large to be a "
> ...


It's important to separate your specious opinions: "that's definitely a flechette", from facts. And, the facts are:

there is no solid evidence that your ".....because I say" opinion is accurate and secondly, if it is a flachette, we have no solid evidence that is was a part of an Israeli weapon. 

Additionally, we have have no solid evidence that any of the electronics came from either an Israeli weapon or someone's Walkman. 

You seem to be stuck in that Cul de sac wherein you level claims without a shred of evidence to support those specious claims. In connection with your certainty that the electronics are Joooooooooo electronics, the report makes the statement: "it is unclear what these remains are and which patients they were associated with, and the team could not ascertain their source." It's remarkable that you can speak with such authority about issues you know nothing about.


----------



## Challenger (Dec 5, 2015)

RoccoR said:


> I looked up the bio on every member of the Team. NONE of them are professional investigators beyond their individual medical skill set.



Ooh that's useful, care to provide links? The bios stated in the report are fairly superficial, it would be good to get confirmation that none of them have had any training or experience at all in gathering evidence of the commission of war crimes.



RoccoR said:


> The IICI is not a government investigative activity.



Never said it was. It does however have an, "Investigation Wing (that) organises qualified investigators around the concept of the Ready Response Team (RRT), a small, mobile multi-disciplinary group designed to respond to crime scenes in a timely manner to gather, preserve and protect physical evidence and the testimony of victims and witnesses."



RoccoR said:


> Just as it is necessary to be a graduate or equivalent to a graduate of the Police Academy South, Netherlands _(the most common source)_ in order to qualify for an entry level position as a *UN War Crimes Investigator*,



And you extrapolated all that from a single profile bio of one investigator? As it happens, I found an old Job spec for a Grade P3 Investigator position for the Rwandan genocide, when the U.N. were hiring at the time. It shows what is required of an investigator

Investigator, P-3

Responsibilities:
Under the general supervision of the OIC, Investigations Division, Kigali, the incumbent performs the following duties:-
1.Involvement in the collection of information, intelligence and data that would contribute to the successful location and arrest of fugitives.
2.Provide trial support to trial teams and appeals team. Assist trial teams by analyzing relevant witness statements and other documents and advise trial team members.
3.Travel to various parts of the country and abroad with investigators to undertake actual interviews, record statements from witnesses and open new lines of investigations or cause the arrest of wanted persons. 4.Undertake investigations at the direction of the Chief of Investigations, the Team Leader or under the general supervision of assigned Trial Team or Appeals Team.
5.Be responsible for the professional planning and conduct of investigations assigned to him or her.
6.Assign work to the team of investigators. Evaluate performance relative to position description where applicable. 7.Be responsible for operating within the scope of Standard Operating Procedures of the Office of the Prosecutor and the applicable law (s).
8.Coordinate, as necessary with local non-governmental organizations, government and other agencies for the conduct of investigations, to solicit information, including information on sexual assaults for the purposes of trial preparation, trial support and appeals support.
9.Record victim and witness statements on all facts, ensure the proper chain of custody of evidence, obtain complete statements and deposit the originals with the Evidence Unit.
10.Take responsibility for the physical deposit and safe-keeping of all evidence and statements.
11.Liaise with legal advisers, analysts and other team leaders.
12.Review, for accuracy, evidence briefs prepared by a trial team.
13.Ensure, in dealing with witness statements and Source debriefings that the actions taken do not compromise the safety of the witnesses, informants or sources.
14.Follow-up on additional inquiries from prosecution and trial teams related to sexual assault crimes. Prepare mission orders and reports for each field mission.
15.Portray good skills in the coordination of activities of an Investigations team during field missions and most particularly in the arrest of fugitives.

Competencies
Professional:
Knowledge and techniques of contacting, recruiting and managing sources.Knowledge of criminal investigation techniques and procedures and experience in preparing witnesses and evidence for judicial proceedings.
Ability to adapt to changing circumstances and conditions during the course of an investigation and an ability to modify procedures and methodologies accordingly.
Ability to think clearly and logically and analyze complex and obscure data from a myriad of sources.
Perfect knowledge and practice in the use of internal guidelines on the management, and protective measures of confidential sources.

Communication:
Good written and oral skills including the ability to edit a variety of written reports, studies and other communication and articulate ideas in a clear and concise manner.
Ability to express ideas and formulate questions in a clear and unambiguous manner.

Planning and organizing:
The ability to establish priorities, plan and develop clear goals that are consistent with agreed strategies relating to the functions of the post and to conduct work in an environment of conflicting priorities and within limited time frames.

Creativity:
The ability to identify problems affecting the execution of the duties of the Office and to provide innovative solutions.

Teamwork:
Maintain good harmony and team spirit within the Investigations Team that may be placed under his or her supervision or with which he or she may be called up to operate. Good interpersonal skills and the ability to work collaboratively with staff at all levels, in a multicultural environment.

Judgment/Decision-making:
Ability to utilize independent judgment in decision-making, taking into account the impact of these decisions on investigation team's ability to meet the objectives.

Leadership:
Sound professional investigative and administrative abilities to produce high quality work from staff and teams working under his/her supervision.

Building Trust: Ability to obtain the trust, confidence and ultimately, cooperation of others.

QUALIFICATIONS
Education
University Degree in Criminology and Criminal Justice *or *relevant academic qualifications or equivalent training and a diploma in criminal investigations from a recognized public police academy with work experience in criminal investigations. (Note: This was before the IICI was set up)

Work Experience
A minimum of 7 years of progressively responsible experience in criminal investigations at the national or international level. Demonstrated experience of working at a supervisory level and/or substantial participation in complex, long-term criminal investigations, especially of violent crimes is a requirement. Experience in preparing witnesses and evidence for judicial proceedings as well as experience in recruitment, management of sources and in tracking of wanted fugitives is also a requirement.

Languages
English and French are the working languages of the International Criminal Tribunal for Rwanda (ICTR). For the post advertised, fluency in oral and written English or French and a good working knowledge of the other language is required.

Other Skills
Good research, analytical and problem solving skills, computer literacy and proficiency in the use of software applications relevant to criminal investigations. Knowledge of criminal investigation techniques and procedure is highly desirable."


Point out to me please where the report team members do not have the requisite skill set reuired above.



RoccoR said:


> American Genocide and War Crimes Unit (GWCU), you have to be a Special Agent



So what? the GWCU is a government organ. That's how the U.S.A. choses to approach investigating war crimes, other countries and the UN have different ideas, like the IICI, for example. Interesting that the GWCU doesn't exist on the FBI current website, wonder what happened to it?


----------



## Challenger (Dec 5, 2015)

RoccoR said:


> These types of NGO and these types of Reports already have and set agenda and outcome. The product was predetermined before the ink dried on the travel request.



Yes they do, just like all the IDF "investigations" that go on. This, however was a fact finding mission and all it did was to recommend the following:

The FFM
•   Calls upon the UN, the EU, the US and other international actors to take steps to ensure that the governments of Israel and Egypt permit and facilitate the entry of investigative teams into Gaza, including experts in international human rightslaw and arms experts. This has not yet been done, months after the offensive;
•   Draws attention to the independence and credibility of the local Palestinian civil society groups (Al Mezan, PCHR and GCMHP), and encourages the international community to support and recognize their efforts to collate evidence in Gaza, in order to proceed with legal and/or other remedies as well as to seek justice and/or reparations;
•   Believes that the prima facie evidence collected and presented in this Report should be used for the purposes of legal determination of violations of international human rights and humanitarian law, whether through local or international justice mechanisms. It is willing to assist and provide evidence to any credible investigation established for this purpose, and;
•   Recommends further urgent and rigorous investigation into the impact of this war, as well as the previous armed conflicts, on public health, mental health and the broader social determinants of health in Gaza. In this assessment, the implacable effects of the on-going occupation itself must be taken into account.


----------



## Challenger (Dec 5, 2015)

Hollie said:


> t's important to separate your specious opinions: "that's definitely a flechette", from facts. And, the facts are:
> 
> there is no solid evidence that your ".....because I say" opinion is accurate and secondly, if it is a flachette, we have no solid evidence that is was a part of an Israeli weapon.



Another hollow response from Hollie. 

1. The *fact *is, that *was* a picture of a flechette. Google "flechette", it's not difficult.
2. True, there is no solid evidence that it was part of an Israeli weapon, it might have been an American weapon sold to Zionist Israel. That said, how many Israelis have been killed or injured by flechettes in the history of the whole conflict? Were that the case, the Zionist Hasbara machine would have trumpeted the fact as far and as wide as possible, "Look HAMAS are using purpose built anti-personnel armour piercing projectiles against Jooooos...it's another Holocaust in the making!!!!"..........the silence is defening..........


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## Hollie (Dec 5, 2015)

Challenger said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> > t's important to separate your specious opinions: "that's definitely a flechette", from facts. And, the facts are:
> ...


What does a picture of a flechette have to to with any evidence that, that particular weapon was used as a munition? None. Exactly, you have no facts.

Similarly, your flailing around now causes you to suggest the flachette (the one you admit you have no evidence for), may have been supplied to Israel by the Great Satan. 

You have no evidence for that conspiracy theory as you have no evidence for your_ flachette weapon conspiracy theory™_

Admitting you have no evidence for the floating of multiple conspiracy theories is not helped with your "hasbara" nonsense.


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## Kondor3 (Dec 5, 2015)

montelatici said:


> ...Essentially, the UN is ultimately responsible for restitution to the people they facilitated the dispossession of.


Restitution?

Unlikely.

Compensation, and relocation support?

Possible.

Stop pretending that and lying about the Israelis supposed systematically and routinely target civilians and we'll talk.

Happy to build new housing and infrastructure for you on the east bank of the Jordan River and to pay you for your troubles.


----------



## Hollie (Dec 5, 2015)

Challenger said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > First, I have no quarrel with the composition of the Fact-Finding Mission (FFM) Team. But you have to remember that while all seem to be exceptionally experienced in their specialty, not a single one of them is a professional intelligence, counterintelligence, law enforcement, or Prosecution Investigator of any kind.
> ...


When did the supposed FFM morph into, as you describe, "the initial evidence gathering phase of an investigation into war crimes?"

It seems you have vastly expanded the scope of the FFM. Wouldn't the participants in an "initial evidence gathering phase of an investigation into war crimes" think to bring along forensic experts and equipment for the purpose of evidence gathering?


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## Hollie (Dec 5, 2015)

Challenger said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > The report must be written in such a ways as to oppose the occupation and make it appear that no aspect of the Arab-Israeli Conflict or the prolonged occupation rests at the feet of the Palestinians. You will note that at no time in the report were the Palestinians held accountable for any outcome.
> ...


Wait, what? Your attempt at analogy using Rwanda or the Holocaust is hopelessly inept.

Israel entered Gaza in 2014 in response to acts of war (rocket barrages) fired by Hamas and other Islamic terrorist syndicates. 

The perps of these acts of war are not the victims. That's why they're called perpetrators, they perpetrated acts, in this case, acts of war.


----------



## IlarMeilyr (Dec 5, 2015)

The shocking images reveal that death can be quite gruesome.  Some of us already realized this.

But as for the little children who are shown mangled and dead, almost NONE of the scenes in the freaking OP propaganda piece can be shown to have been shot or bombed by Israel much less as having been targeted.

Thread review:

zero.


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## montelatici (Dec 5, 2015)

IlarMeilyr said:


> The shocking images reveal that death can be quite gruesome.  Some of us already realized this.
> 
> But as for the little children who are shown mangled and dead, almost NONE of the scenes in the freaking OP propaganda piece can be shown to have been shot or bombed by Israel much less as having been targeted.
> 
> ...



*"Israeli soldiers claim Palestinian civilians were targeted during Gaza war"*

Israeli soldiers claim Palestinian civilians were targeted during Gaza war

*'Fire at every person': Israeli soldiers reveal they were ordered to shoot to kill in Gaza combat zones – even if targets may have been civilians
*
Israeli soldiers reveal they were ordered to shoot to kill in Gaza

*"Gaza: Israeli Soldiers Shoot and Kill Fleeing Civilians"*

Gaza: Israeli Soldiers Shoot and Kill Fleeing Civilians

“*U.N. Says Israel Killed Civilians in Schools*
people of Gaza have nowhere to run,” Mr. Ban said. “They are trapped, besieged on a speck of land. Every area is a civilian area. Every home, every school, every refuge has become a target. "

U.N. Says Israel Killed Civilians in Schools, Gazans Hid Arms


*"Israel Targets Civilians, the Casualties Speak Volumes"*

"Israel Targets Civilians, the Casualties Speak Volumes": Int'l Protection Urged for Besieged Gaza | Democracy Now!


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## Kondor3 (Dec 5, 2015)

montelatici said:


> ..."Israel Targets Civilians, the Casualties Speak Volumes"...


The casualties do, indeed, speak volumes, but not about Israel intentionally targeting civilians.

Rather, the casualties speak volumes about the Neanderthal Palestinians, who routinely embed war assets amongst their civilian populations.

Hiding behind the skirts of their women and children like the pussies they are.

Just ask Amnesty International, the United Nations, etc., about whether Hamas et al routinely do this... they'll tell you the same thing.

All protestations from our resident fifth-column Muslim bloggers notwithstanding...


----------



## montelatici (Dec 5, 2015)

Kondor3 said:


> montelatici said:
> 
> 
> > ..."Israel Targets Civilians, the Casualties Speak Volumes"...
> ...



So, what are you saying?  The Israeli soldiers that admitted to targeting civilians are liars?


----------



## RoccoR (Dec 5, 2015)

montelatici,  et al,

I think that it is time to put Article 22 in its proper perspective.



montelatici said:


> Rocco, you can huff and puff and make outrageous claims, but the fact of the matter is that the inhabitants of Palestine, had every right to be treated as all the other "peoples" that inhabited the colonies and territories that ceased to be under the sovereignty of the States that formerly governed them.  Pursuant to Article 22 of the Covenant of the League of Nations.
> 
> *"ARTICLE 22.*
> To those colonies and territories which as a consequence of the late war have ceased to be under the sovereignty of the States which formerly governed them and which are inhabited by peoples not yet able to stand by themselves under the strenuous conditions of the modern world, there should be applied the principle that the well-being and development of such peoples form a sacred trust of civilisation and that securities for the performance of this trust should be embodied in this Covenant.
> ...


*(COMMENT)*

There is very little question that the Arabs of Palestine believed that the Article 22 of the Covenant to be some sort of Rosetta Stone to sovereignty and faith in the controversial correspondence between the British High Commissioner Sir Henry McMahon and Emir Hussein ibn Ali al-Hashimi _(Leader of Hashemite Tribe)_, Sharif of Mecca ---  of 24 October 1915 _[Remember the territory was controlled by the Occupied Enemy Territory Administration (1918 - 1920)]_ , --- and what appeared to be a contradictory pledge made in the Balfour Declaration, adopted by the Allied Powers at San Remo --- put in force by the Mandate; within such boundaries as may be determined by the Principal Allied Powers.   Both the Arabs of Palestine and the Jewish immigrants believed that the territory was granted to them.  What the Arabs of Palestine did not know is that the settlement of the pledge between Sir Henry and Emir Hussein did not actually commit to an obligation for the Arabs of Palestine.  Like so many time that were to happen, the indigenous population (Arab Palestinians) were not really a party to the agreement.

Eventually, the McMahon promise was fulfilled in the establishment of the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan _(77% of Mandate)_ _(Prince Abdullah, Emir and first King of Transjordan)_, and the Kingdom of Iraq _(100% of Mandate)_ _(Prince Faisal, first King of Iraq )_.  Again, the Sir Henry was not even considering the indigenous Arabs of Palestine.

The Covenant of the League of Nations was a joint effort.  In Britain Lord James Bryce, 1st Viscount, and G. Lowes Dickinson were instrumental in the development of the basic frameworks incorporated into the Covenant adopted by the British League of Nations Society, founded in 1915.  In December 1916, Lord Robert Cecil suggested that an official committee be set up to DRAFT a covenant for the League; supported by US President Taft.

•  The same principle nation that contributed the most to the Covenant, also wrote the Balfour Declaration and the content of the Mandate framed in San Remo.  Essentially, the intent was of one mind, refined by each successive document.  This is why the Mandate, framed in San Remo by the Allied Powers, is directly mentions in the Mandate as that the Mandate gives meaning to Article 22.  REMEMBER:  The Mandate says that the "Allied Powers (the authors) have agreed, for the purpose of *giving effect to the provisions of Article 22* of the Covenant of the League of Nations."   *It does not say that Article 22 gives meaning to the Mandate.  *The Allied Powers were exactly that --- the power.  They did not actually need a Covenant because the Allied Powers dictated the Covenant --- the Covenant did NOT dictate to the Allied Powers.  

•  No where in Article 22, is a Colony, Protectorate or Territories under mandate, known as Palestine, within the boundaries yet to be determined, is mentioned.   Nothing specific is uniquely applicable to the Arab Palestinians.  The League of Nations Covenant and Article 22, Signed: 28 June 1919, was adopted while Arab Palestine was under occupation as enemy territory.  While the Mandate was technically submitted to the Council of the League for approval; undertaken on behalf of the League of Nations, and  the degree of authority, control, or administration to be exercised by the Mandatory was agreed upon by the Members of the League and explicitly defined in each case by the Council; of which the Mandatory and other Allied Powers were influential.  

•  However you may interpret the Covenant, in the first three decade of the 20th Century, no nation questions the intent of the Allied Powers or even suggest that the Allied Powers failed to follow the Covenant.  The Covenant was not written for use by non-member populations under occupation in enemy territory.     ​
Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## Indeependent (Dec 5, 2015)

montelatici said:


> docmauser1 said:
> 
> 
> > montelatici said:
> ...



George Soros is a Bacon, Lettuce and Tomato Jew.
An Atheist.


----------



## montelatici (Dec 5, 2015)

Indeependent said:


> montelatici said:
> 
> 
> > docmauser1 said:
> ...



So he his, to his credit.  A non-partisan who speaks the truth.


----------



## Indeependent (Dec 5, 2015)

montelatici said:


> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> > montelatici said:
> ...



I give Soros credit for playing the Free Market to make money.
He's got as much right as anybody to try and inflate his portfolio.


----------



## flacaltenn (Dec 5, 2015)

fanger said:


> Looks like they do



Damn.. I swear that's the same footage of snipers they used in that video of a dog-shooting on the rooftop.. 
It IS the same footage..


----------



## montelatici (Dec 6, 2015)

RoccoR said:


> montelatici,  et al,
> 
> I think that it is time to put Article 22 in its proper perspective.
> 
> ...



I don't understand the Rosetta Stone analogy, the Rosetta Stone was simply a translation of Egyptian hieroglyphs into ancient Greek, allowing us to be able to read ancient Egyptian texts. 

Even in a simple analogy you demonstrate your general ignorance (in the educational sense) and a mind warped by rabid partisanship. Defending the indefensible must be difficult so, lacking proper credentials combined with a rabid partisanship, bordering on visceral hate for Arabs, be they Christian or Muslims, reduces most of what you write to nonsense, not worth responding to.  But, I will set you straight this time.

The Covenant of the League of Nations is not a Rosetta Stone or translation tool, it is the Bible for post-war international order.  It represents how the world would proceed after the Great War, and was written to attempt to prevent another war but specifically for the people of the world that heretofore had been under foreign domination or colonization.  It represented the West's and the colonial powers intention to cease colonization and free those peoples that had been under colonization.  

So, yes the Covenant was written for much of the people of the world at the time, people under colonization or under foreign domination.

The vision of a democratic independent state in Palestine where human, political and religious freedoms were to prevail was part and parcel of the Covenant. This vision is captured in the “sacred trust” for Palestine accepted by Britain in 1920 in the [League of Nations] Mandate for Palestine.

As the International Court of Justice, in various subsequent decisions,  has stressed, that the concept of sacred trust must be interpreted as requiring effect to be given to the principle of self-determination leading to independence.

In its opinion 1950 opinion the ICJ made a number of pronouncements relating to the mandates system in general which are applicable to the Mandate for Palestine. Under the mandates system, the ICJ declared that “two principles were considered to be of paramount importance: the principle of non-annexation and the principle that the well-being and development of such peoples form ‘a sacred trust of civilization’. The Mandates were created according to the ICJ,  *“in the interest of the inhabitants of the territory, and of humanity in general, as an international institution with an international object, a sacred trust of civilization.”*The fulfilment of the sacred trust did not depend upon the existence of the League of Nations. In its dissolution resolution the Assembly of the League said that the League’s functions with respect to mandated territories would come to an end but it “did not say that the Mandates themselves came to an end”.

The ICJ concluded:

"These developments leave little doubt that the ultimate objective of the sacred trust was the self-determination and independence of the peoples concerned”.

As in 1950, in 1971 the Court made a number of pronouncements of a general nature on the sacred trust that applied to all mandated territories. It made it clear that the continuance of an institution such as a Mandate was not inseparably linked with the League of Nations and “cannot be presumed to lapse before the achievement of its purpose”.9 The Court declared that the concept of the sacred trust had evolved in accordance with developments in international law and that

“These developments leave little doubt that the ultimate objective of the sacred trust was the self-determination and independence of the peoples concerned”.

The ICJ decisions are readily available at:

Cour internationale de Justice | International Court of Justice

The 1950 decision, in particular, can be viewed using the link below:

http://www.icj-cij.org/docket/files/10/1893.pdf


----------



## montelatici (Dec 6, 2015)

flacaltenn said:


> fanger said:
> 
> 
> > Looks like they do
> ...



Well, making false claims about videos does not change the fact that outside of certain partisan Americans, and the Israelis themselves, the rest of the world is well aware that the Israeli security forces target civilians.


----------



## Indeependent (Dec 6, 2015)

montelatici said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > fanger said:
> ...



In your opinion, anyone who says ANYTHING non-negative about Israel is partisan.
I guess that's what happens when a RC hitches up with a Muslim.


----------



## montelatici (Dec 6, 2015)

Indeependent said:


> montelatici said:
> 
> 
> > flacaltenn said:
> ...



No, denying the obvious is partisanship or, in some cases cognitive dissonance or just plain dishonesty.  It has nothing to do with religion.


----------



## Challenger (Dec 6, 2015)

flacaltenn said:


> fanger said:
> 
> 
> > Looks like they do
> ...



"Dog shooting?" Revealing turn of phrase. No it was a bunch of IDF louts having fun, taking pot shots at kids on a rooftop who may, or may not (never definitively proven), have been throwing items off the roof about a year ago.


There was a thread about it here, somewhere.


----------



## Indeependent (Dec 6, 2015)

montelatici said:


> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> > montelatici said:
> ...



I have asked you, an esteemed military expert, to enumerate a number of times on the tactical on all the inhumane behavior you seem to observe going on in Israel from the 40s onward, and your reticence on this particular type of information, of which you have trained in, leads me to only one conclusion...
You're full of shit.


----------



## Likkmee (Dec 6, 2015)

It IsNtReal......but this is.
Some of their handywork..thanks to you assholes.


----------



## Hollie (Dec 6, 2015)

montelatici said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > fanger said:
> ...


It's a falsehood to suggest that you are tasked with speaking on behalf of the "rest of the world". Cutting and pasting YouTube videos, (those of unknown, context and authenticity), does nothing to suggest that an identifiable cabal of posters speaks for anyone but themselves.


----------



## Indeependent (Dec 6, 2015)

Likkmee said:


> It IsNtReal......but this is.
> Some of their handywork..thanks to you assholes.
> View attachment 56365



A foot print left by Sasquatch?


----------



## Billo_Really (Dec 6, 2015)

Hollie said:


> It's a falsehood to suggest that you are tasked with speaking on behalf of the "rest of the world". Cutting and pasting YouTube videos, (those of unknown, context and authenticity), does nothing to suggest that an identifiable cabal of posters speaks for anyone but themselves.


You're pretty good at "suggestions".  You keep inferring the videos are fake, when all you offer as proof, is conjecture and innuendo. In addition to repeating buzzwords and catch phrases like _"...cutting and pasting..."_

You never offer any evidence (nor do you state), _how_ the video was faked, _what_ was faked or_ who_ faked it.


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## Billo_Really (Dec 6, 2015)

Indeependent said:


> I have asked you, an esteemed military expert, to enumerate a number of times on the tactical on all the inhumane behavior you seem to observe going on in Israel from the 40s onward, and your reticence on this particular type of information, of which you have trained in, leads me to only one conclusion...
> You're full of shit.


Shooting at people fishing and farming is pretty inhuman.


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## montelatici (Dec 6, 2015)

Indeependent said:


> montelatici said:
> 
> 
> > Indeependent said:
> ...



You are going to have to improve your communications skills in English for me to able to discern whether or not your post is actually asking a question or is simply a personal attack that does not address the subject of this thread.


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## Indeependent (Dec 6, 2015)

montelatici said:


> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> > montelatici said:
> ...



Here's clarity...
On every thread on which I have asked you for how something got accomplished tactically, you NEVER respond.


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## montelatici (Dec 6, 2015)

Indeependent said:


> montelatici said:
> 
> 
> > Indeependent said:
> ...



If that is your question, it depends on the objective.  Different tactics for different objectives.


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## Indeependent (Dec 6, 2015)

montelatici said:


> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> > montelatici said:
> ...



And never ANY tactics for ANY thread.
Nice dodge.


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## montelatici (Dec 6, 2015)

Indeependent said:


> montelatici said:
> 
> 
> > Indeependent said:
> ...



Do you even know what a tactic is? It appears you do not.


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## Indeependent (Dec 6, 2015)

montelatici said:


> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> > montelatici said:
> ...


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## Indeependent (Dec 6, 2015)

montelatici said:


> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> > montelatici said:
> ...



A tactic is how strategy is played out in reality.
People, supplies, topography, etc...
All that without ever having been Jason Bourne!


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## montelatici (Dec 6, 2015)

Indeependent said:


> montelatici said:
> 
> 
> > Indeependent said:
> ...



How can tactic be a strategy?  Do some research before you respond.  You just made a fool of yourself.  I knew you hadn't a clue as to what a tactic was. LOL


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## Roudy (Dec 7, 2015)

montelatici said:


> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> > montelatici said:
> ...



Oh and you do?! Talk about clueless:

Tac·tic
ˈtaktik/
_noun_
noun: *tactic*; plural noun: *tactics*

an action or strategy carefully planned to achieve a specific end.
synonyms: strategy, scheme, stratagem, plan, maneuver; More
method, expedient, gambit, move, approach, tack;
device, trick, ploy, dodge, ruse, machination, contrivance;
_informal_wangle;
_archaic_shift
"a tax-saving tactic"
the art of disposing armed forces in order of battle and of organizing operations, especially during contact with an enemy.
synonyms: strategy, policy, campaign, battle plans, game plans, maneuvers, logistics; More
generalship, organization, planning, direction, orchestration


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## theliq (Dec 7, 2015)

Roudy said:


> montelatici said:
> 
> 
> > Indeependent said:
> ...


Nice to see you can read a Dictionary.....Roudy,you should explain this skill to others on your side of the Wall..steve


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## Roudy (Dec 7, 2015)

theliq said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > montelatici said:
> ...



Thanks, but it isn't my side that needs a dictionary, as you saw, it's yours.


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## theliq (Dec 7, 2015)

Roudy said:


> theliq said:
> 
> 
> > Roudy said:
> ...


Thanks Roudy,Seasons Greeting to your Family and You......Peace for a few weeks.....but keep milling that Armour thicker for next year,no doubt more combat..LOL...steve,Keep Well


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## Challenger (Dec 7, 2015)

theliq said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > montelatici said:
> ...



Now all Rude-ee needs to do is to get hold of a decent dictionary...


----------



## Indeependent (Dec 7, 2015)

montelatici said:


> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> > montelatici said:
> ...


I stated a tactic is the actual specifics for executing a strategy.
Are you that stupid?


----------



## Billo_Really (Dec 7, 2015)

While you dumbasses argue about stupid shit like "what is a tactic", there can be no question Israel deliberately targets civilians.  When you have 70% of the dead are civilians and over 100,000 people homeless, that is not a mistake, that is deliberate.

Here are the findings from a report by groups that had no affiliation with either side:

_*Israel did the following in its Operation Protective Edge:*_ 
_used civilians as human shields; 

shot civilians dead at close range; 

left mortally wounded children on the ground to die, even after soldiers made eye contact with them; 

conducted multiple consecutive strikes on a single location (“double taps”), killing injured survivors and those attempting to rescue them; 

bombed medical clinics that were acting as shelters for civilians and the wounded;

“deliberately” attacked hospitals; 

prevented emergency medical evacuation, even by international organizations such as Red Cross; 

killed and injured “many” medical teams that were evacuating the injured;
refused to allow civilians to exit areas being attacked;

targeted civilian escape routes; 

shelled ambulances; attacked civilians attempting to flee areas under fire;

physically beat civilians; 

denied civilians food and water;_​All you fuckers trying to defend this crap are really sick in the head.


----------



## Billo_Really (Dec 7, 2015)

Here's a graph of the location Gazan's were injured...


----------



## Roudy (Dec 7, 2015)

All lies and bullshit as it's been well established that Hamas shoots rockets from homes, hospitals, and schools, while using Palestinian women and children as human shields.  They are evil Islamic terrorist scum like ISIS, and the last thing on their minds is the lives of the civilians.


----------



## Humanity (Dec 7, 2015)

Roudy said:


> All lies and bullshit as it's been well established that Hamas shoots rockets from homes, hospitals, and schools, while using Palestinian women and children as human shields.  They are evil Islamic terrorist scum like ISIS, and the last thing on their minds is the lives of the civilians.



Yeah, because a 2000lb bomb is so targeted isn't it!

Doesn't cause ANY 'collateral damage' does it....

Israel NEVER uses "human shields" does it!

Hamas is a terrorist organisation, no doubt... But they are not ISIS!

You need to move away from comparing apples and oranges... When you can then you will start to see some reality in the situation rather than believing and spreading your zionut propaganda!!


----------



## RoccoR (Dec 7, 2015)

Billo_Really, et al,

I think you had better climb down off your high horse.  Until I see a professional War Crimes Team (as we discussed Posting #163), or finding from the ICC Prosecutors Office, your ravings are of very little value.  And if it was quite as simple, cut'n'dry, as you make it out to be, THEN the ICC Team, which has been in play for 11 months _(Prosecutor's Preliminary Examination opened 16 Jan 15)_, would have made your point already.  So, I suspect they think it is much more complicated then you make it out to be.



Billo_Really said:


> While you dumbasses argue about stupid shit like "what is a tactic", there can be no question Israel deliberately targets civilians.  When you have 70% of the dead are civilians and over 100,000 people homeless, that is not a mistake, that is deliberate.
> ​All you fuckers trying to defend this crap are really sick in the head.


*(COMMENT)*

Actually, these are unsubstantiated allegations.  There is actually no physical evidence associated with a vast majority of the allegations.  These are just apparent victims of making statements. 

And even if the statements were true, the report does not show in any way that there is a deliberate and established policy of abusing enemy civilians.  Many of these statement are a case of Gaza Civilians that where not removed from the battle space by HAMAS, as require in Customary IHL.    Or, it describes a cases in which HAMAS was deliberately conducting hostile operations from densely populated area; in violation of Customary IHL.

As to your comments in Posting #166, I draw your attention to these Job Announcement Minimum Criteria:

QUALIFICATIONS
Education
University *Degree in Criminology and Criminal Justice* *or *relevant academic qualifications or equivalent training and a *diploma in criminal investigations* from a *recognized* *public police academy* with work experience in criminal investigations. (Note: This was before the IICI was set up)

•••  MY ANSWER:  The IICI is not a recognized Police or Law Enforcement Academy.  It is a college as I explained before.

Work Experience
A *minimum of 7 years of progressively responsible experience in criminal investigations at the national or international level*. Demonstrated experience of working at a supervisory level and/or substantial participation in complex, long-term criminal investigations, especially of violent crimes is a requirement. Experience in preparing witnesses and evidence for judicial proceedings as well as experience in recruitment, management of sources and in tracking of wanted fugitives is also a requirement.

••• MY ANWSER:  7 Years as a NATION or INTERNATIONAL criminal investigator.

And Your comment that:  "So what? the GWCU is a government organ. "That's how the U.S.A. choses to approach investigating war crimes, other countries and the UN have different ideas, like the IICI, for example. Interesting that the GWCU doesn't exist on the FBI current website, wonder what happened to it?"

First please go to the FBI.gov Web Page for:
*Genocide War Crimes Unit*
​
OR

Go to the independent resource, FBIAgentEDU.org serves as an objective source of information for those interested in learning about everything from education and experience requirements, to job duties and salary expectations specific to careers with the Federal Bureau of Investigations.
*Careers with the FBI’s Genocide and War Crimes Unit*
​Of course the ICC, INTERPOL, IAEA, etc, are different from the US.  But the professionalism and career development and entry level criteria are about the same. 

The IICI is a private school, just like and of the Colleges and Universities around the world, that offer criminal justice, law enforcement, and law degrees.  But graduating from such course does not mean you have been vetted, and meet the agency specific criteria.  Even with such a degree, you have to go through the Academy before you enter your probationary period.

I was a Senior Counterintelligence Special Agent and a Team Chief for a Technical Surveillance Countermeasures Team.  Even though I have both a technical degree law enforcement (from CTI) and science degree (from OSU), I still have to go to the Federal Interagency Training Center (ITC) to become a TSCM Special Agent.

Places like IICI are great for meeting the continuing education requirements annually, but they are not a qualification course.

Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## montelatici (Dec 7, 2015)

RoccoR said:


> Billo_Really, et al,
> 
> I think you had better climb down off your high horse.  Until I see a professional War Crimes Team (as we discussed Posting #163), or finding from the ICC Prosecutors Office, your ravings are of very little value.  And if it was quite as simple, cut'n'dry, as you make it out to be, THEN the ICC Team, which has been in play for 11 months _(Prosecutor's Preliminary Examination opened 16 Jan 15)_, would have made your point already.  So, I suspect they think it is much more complicated then you make it out to be.
> 
> ...




Regardless of whether the perpetrator is indicted and condemned, the bombing of civilians, is today a war crime. The bombing of Guernica, for example,  would be a war crime today. The bombing of civilian infrastructure is a war crime today.  The problem is that the powerful are able to escape indictment by threatening the judicial body in question or other means.  That is why to date, only African and Balkan leaders have been indicted and/or convicted.  

If a residential apartment building, school, power plant or any other civilian infrastructure is bombed, it is a war crime today.  But, if the country is a powerful one or has powerful friends, nothing will come of it.


----------



## RoccoR (Dec 7, 2015)

Roudy,  et al,

Don't get excited.



Roudy said:


> All lies and bullshit as it's been well established that Hamas shoots rockets from homes, hospitals, and schools, while using Palestinian women and children as human shields.  They are evil Islamic terrorist scum like ISIS, and the last thing on their minds is the lives of the civilians.


*(COMMENT)*

This all comes from the same source; page #36 of the "Gaza, 2014 Findings of an independent medical fact-finding mission."

This is just platform for mud slinging; and a means of getting unsubstantiated, and uncorroborated allegations into the media.  If they can get these Humanitarian Efforts to repeat the Palestinian script often enough, it become fact.  Who would have believed 2015, that HAMAS would become labeled victim of Israeli Terror when it was HAMAS which in the last week of February and the first week in March 1996, unleashed a wave of 4 suicide bombers that left 60 dead and another 284 wounded.  If the Medical Community wants to spread this kind-of disinformation --- then let them.  In the end, it will change nothing; in fact, given the impact that other radicalize Islamic groups are having in across Europeand in the Middle East, the Islamic Resistance Movement for the Palestinians will have their own troubles.

Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## RoccoR (Dec 7, 2015)

montelatici,  et al,

Well that is not entirely correct. 


"In so far as objects are concerned, military objectives are limited to those objects which by their nature, location, purpose or use make an effective contribution to military action and whose total or partial destruction, capture or neutralization, in the circumstances ruling at the time, offers a definite military advantage."

SOURCE:  Article 52, Additional Protocol I, to the Geneva Convention.




montelatici said:


> If a residential apartment building, school, power plant or any other civilian infrastructure is bombed, it is a war crime today.  But, if the country is a powerful one or has powerful friends, nothing will come of it.


*(COMMENT)*

You simply do not understand what a "War Crime" is.  Each Case must be adjudicated individually.  All the basic interrogative must be answered even before it is remanded to the Prosecutor. 

•  Legitimate military targets include: armed forces and persons who take part in the fighting; positions or installations occupied by armed forces as well as objectives that are directly contested in battle; military installations such as barracks, war ministries, munitions or fuel dumps, storage yards for vehicles, airfields, rocket launch ramps, and naval bases.

•  Legitimate infrastructure targets include lines and means of communication, command, and control—railway lines, roads, bridges, tunnels, and canals—that are of fundamental military importance.

•  Legitimate communications targets include broadcasting and television stations, and telephone and telegraph exchanges of fundamental military importance.

•  Legitimate military-industrial targets include factories producing arms, transport, and communications equipment for the military; metallurgical, engineering, and chemicals industries whose nature or purpose is essentially military; and the storage and transport installations serving such industries.

•  Legitimate military research targets include experimental research centers for the development of weapons and war matériel.

•  Legitimate energy targets include installations providing energy mainly for national defense, such as coal and other fuels, and plants producing gas or electricity mainly for military consumption. Attacks on nuclear power stations and hydroelectric dams are generally, but not always, prohibited by the laws of war.

- See more at: Crimes of War   –  Legitimate Military Targets​
The IDF does not intentionally target civilians or civilian objects.  The quest is about whether of not there is any doubt that the target contributes to the efforts of the opposing force.  If there is not doubt that target contributes militarily to mission of the opposing force, then it becomes a legitimate target if it is otherwise a concrete target and all other Rules are in play; and military advantage or objective is anticipated with the targets destruction.”

I'm not saying that their are times when a "residential apartment building, school, power plant," would be off the target list.  What is being said, is that given the right circumstances, any of those can be a target.

Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## montelatici (Dec 7, 2015)

1977 additional protocol. Just because warmongering states haven't signed, does not mean it is not International Law.

 “reaffirm and develop the provisions protecting the victims of armed conflicts and to supplement measures intended to reinforce their application.” Article 48 codifies the principle of distinction, defining an obligation for the parties to a conflict to distinguish between civilians and combatants and between civilian and military objects. The article states that belligerents may only direct attacks against military objectives. Article 51, meanwhile, defines a general protection for the civilian population against the effects of warfare, including a prohibition on indiscriminate attacks and acts or threats of violence for which the primary purpose is to terrorize the civilian population. Finally, Article 52 defines the general protection of civilian objects. Civilian objects are all objects that are not military objects. The Protocol defines military objects in Article 52(2) as, “limited to those objects which by their nature, location, purpose, or use make an effective contribution to military action and whose total or partial destruction, capture, or neutralization, in the circumstances ruling at the time, offers a definite military advantage.” While there are 167 states parties to the protocol, notable exceptions include the United States, Iraq, Iran, and Israel. Customary law further supports the definition provided in Additional Protocol I Article 52(2), through numerous examples of state practice and opinio juris, making the prohibition applicable to all states.

Article 51 of Additional Protocol I explicitly prohibits targeting objects with the intention of increasing the duress of the civilian population. A broad interpretation of the Article 52(2) definition of a military object, however, can be used to justify coercive bombing so long as the duress experienced by civilians is a secondary consequence to the destruction or neutralization of a military object. As stated by legal scholar Matthew Waxman, “planners sometimes view the dual-use nature of infrastructure systems opportunistically, because military usage arguably legitimizes these systems as targets, even though it may in fact be the incidental effects on the civilian population that planners hope to manipulate.” This legal gray-area surrounding dual-use infrastructure is therefore the topic of the following discussion.


----------



## Roudy (Dec 7, 2015)

Humanity said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > All lies and bullshit as it's been well established that Hamas shoots rockets from homes, hospitals, and schools, while using Palestinian women and children as human shields.  They are evil Islamic terrorist scum like ISIS, and the last thing on their minds is the lives of the civilians.
> ...


Yeah because shooting a rocket from behind a school or hospital is showing concern for innocent civilian life, isn't it?  Bottom line, the Palestinians themselves are responsible for the loss of civilian life, since they engage in war crimes against their own people.  

Hamas is a terrorist organization that isn't ISIS but with the same exact goals that ISIS, which is, establishing an Islamic Caliphate.  You've seen one Islamic terrorist organization you've seen them all.


----------



## Roudy (Dec 7, 2015)

RoccoR said:


> montelatici,  et al,
> 
> Well that is not entirely correct.
> 
> ...


According to these demented psychopaths, it's okay for Palestinians to shoot rockets at Israeli cities randomly killing innocent women and children, but not okay for Israel to target where the rockets were shot from.


----------



## Roudy (Dec 7, 2015)

montelatici said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > Billo_Really, et al,
> ...



So shooting rockets from behind apartment buildings, hospitals, etc. isn't considered a war crime?  Ha ha ha. Duh okay.


----------



## RoccoR (Dec 7, 2015)

montelatici,  et al,

Yes, this makes the investigation more than difficult.



montelatici said:


> 1977 additional protocol. Just because warmongering states haven't signed, does not mean it is not International Law.
> 
> “reaffirm and develop the provisions protecting the victims of armed conflicts and to supplement measures intended to reinforce their application.” Article 48 codifies the principle of distinction, defining an obligation for the parties to a conflict to distinguish between civilians and combatants and between civilian and military objects. The article states that belligerents may only direct attacks against military objectives. Article 51, meanwhile, defines a general protection for the civilian population against the effects of warfare, including a prohibition on indiscriminate attacks and acts or threats of violence for which the primary purpose is to terrorize the civilian population. Finally, Article 52 defines the general protection of civilian objects. Civilian objects are all objects that are not military objects. The Protocol defines military objects in Article 52(2) as, “limited to those objects which by their nature, location, purpose, or use make an effective contribution to military action and whose total or partial destruction, capture, or neutralization, in the circumstances ruling at the time, offers a definite military advantage.” While there are 167 states parties to the protocol, notable exceptions include the United States, Iraq, Iran, and Israel. Customary law further supports the definition provided in Additional Protocol I Article 52(2), through numerous examples of state practice and opinio juris, making the prohibition applicable to all states.
> 
> Article 51 of Additional Protocol I explicitly prohibits targeting objects with the intention of increasing the duress of the civilian population. A broad interpretation of the Article 52(2) definition of a military object, however, can be used to justify coercive bombing so long as the duress experienced by civilians is a secondary consequence to the destruction or neutralization of a military object. As stated by legal scholar Matthew Waxman, “planners sometimes view the dual-use nature of infrastructure systems opportunistically, *because military usage arguably legitimizes these systems as targets, even though it may in fact be the incidental effects on the civilian population* that planners hope to manipulate.” This legal gray-area surrounding dual-use infrastructure is therefore the topic of the following discussion.


*(COMMENT)*

DUAL-USE has been, and continues to be, a complicating factor.   But, as you mention in your response:  "*because military usage arguably legitimizes these systems as targets, even though it may in fact be the incidental effects on the civilian population*."  But the IDF had no reason to "manipulate" the target list.  In this case, the target list was based on the strategy that the Islamic Resistance Movement would operate in such close proximity as to create a battlefield dilemma.  You will no doubt take note that one of the complaints by the Palestinians made to the Medical Team was that the IDF issued a warning, but in some cases the attack never came.  In some cases, the IDF terminated the battlefield commitment or air strike because the tactical intelligence changed or that the "doubt" in the use had changed.  The strategy for the Islamic Resistance was also crafty.  If the Islamic Resistance can document an Israeli battlefield engagement or air strike against a civilian laced target or a civilian object, then they can cry foul ---  War Crime.  If, on the other hand, the Israelis terminate the battlefield engagement or air strike, the Palestinian get to cry foul --- warning with no strike, and/or the military use was rendered immune from Israeli targeting.  In the report we've seen example of both complaints; the complaint that there were warnings with no attack and the complaint that civilian/objects were attacked. 

Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## Humanity (Dec 7, 2015)

Roudy said:


> Humanity said:
> 
> 
> > Roudy said:
> ...



Roodboy, your comments are naive at best.... 

Thank god Hamas don't have the same firepower that Israel has! It's always difficult to hide an F-16 or Cobra helicopters behind a hospital or school isn't it!

I think you might find that Hamas has slightly different goals to ISIS, if you could be bothered to engage brain and understand the differences!

Israel targets civilians, pure and simple... If Israel were in anyway concerned about civilian casualties they would surely use more targeted options than simple blow the shit out of everything indiscriminately. They have the technology, thanks to the US, so why resort to 2000lb bombs that obliterate city blocks of property AND civilians when they can target individuals!


----------



## Roudy (Dec 7, 2015)

Humanity said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Humanity said:
> ...



The fact that Hamas doesn't have the "firepower" that Israel has, doesn't absolve it from using locations such as school, hospitals, apartment buildings and mosques.  And, since Hamas is the ruling authority in Gaza-hole, and that this ruling authority chooses to shoot rockets at Israeli civilians from such locations, absolves Israel of the consequences of taking out those rocket launching sites.  Therefore the blame rests only and only on the shoulders of Hamas for using it's own population as human shields. 

You don't seem to be as concerned for the civilians that the Hamas animals target with their rockets and other terror activities, and only concerned that Hamas continue to be able to commit war crimes and violations without any reciprocity or proper response from the Israelis.  That, will never happen with the Israelis.  Rest assured, Israel understands the language that these animals speak.


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## RoccoR (Dec 7, 2015)

Humanity,  et al,

Yes, but the time is rapidly approaching when technology gaps will begin to close.  A Unmanned Aerial Vehicle (UAV) with rockets and missiles



Humanity said:


> Roodboy, your comments are naive at best....
> 
> Thank god Hamas don't have the same firepower that Israel has! It's always difficult to hide an F-16 or Cobra helicopters behind a hospital or school isn't it!
> 
> ...


*(COMMENT)*

I'm not quite sure were they acquired the technology [_(I'm betting Iran (Quds Force)_], but, there will be a time when the Israeli will have to place low level sensors to detect and neutralize this threat.
​
Most Respectfully,
R


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## Billo_Really (Dec 7, 2015)

Roudy said:


> All lies and bullshit as it's been well established that Hamas shoots rockets from homes, hospitals, and schools, while using Palestinian women and children as human shields.  They are evil Islamic terrorist scum like ISIS, and the last thing on their minds is the lives of the civilians.


First off, why would they lie?  And second, do you have any proof that they did?


----------



## Billo_Really (Dec 7, 2015)

RoccoR said:


> I think you had better climb down off your high horse.


I don't have a horse, Mr. Ed.




RoccoR said:


> Until I see a professional War Crimes Team


So what if you do, Israel won't let any independent organization into the area to investigate the facts.  And why won't Israel let anyone into the area, because they're as guilty as sin and they don't want people to see just how barbaric the IDF really is.




RoccoR said:


> or finding from the ICC Prosecutors Office, your ravings are of very little value.


And yours are even less.




RoccoR said:


> And if it was quite as simple, cut'n'dry, as you make it out to be, THEN the ICC Team, which has been in play for 11 months _(Prosecutor's Preliminary Examination opened 16 Jan 15)_, would have made your point already.  So, I suspect they think it is much more complicated then you make it out to be.


I didn't say it was simple, but it is obvious, when you destroy over 18,000 homes, it's not by accident.  When you target first responders, you intended to bomb civilian infrastructure.  And when only 15% of the casualties had weapons on them, it's more than obvious you're full of shit!




RoccoR said:


> Actually, these are unsubstantiated allegations.  There is actually no physical evidence associated with a vast majority of the allegations.  These are just apparent victims of making statements.


These are the findings by Physician's for Human Rights.  I think they are a little more credible than your partisan blather.




RoccoR said:


> And even if the statements were true, the report does not show in any way that there is a deliberate and established policy of abusing enemy civilians.


Oh fuck you!  Israel has priors.  When you add up this PHR report, testimonials from IDF soldiers who were there, Israel's refusal to cooperate with any investigation and all the inhuman posts from Israeli kiss-asses showing zero empathy for anything Palestinian, yeah, the policy of abusing civilians is established and deliberate.  You are sick!  You are sick in the head!




RoccoR said:


> Many of these statement are a case of Gaza Civilians that where not removed from the battle space by HAMAS, as require in Customary IHL.    Or, it describes a cases in which HAMAS was deliberately conducting hostile operations from densely populated area; in violation of Customary IHL.


Don't change the subject.  We're not talking about Hamas, we're talking about Israel and the atrocities it committed.




RoccoR said:


> As to your comments in Posting #166, I draw your attention to these Job Announcement Minimum Criteria:
> 
> QUALIFICATIONS
> Education
> ...


Spare me your incessant data dumps.


----------



## Humanity (Dec 7, 2015)

Roudy said:


> Humanity said:
> 
> 
> > Roudy said:
> ...



It's a shame that you cannot see that Israeli is WRONG and does attack civilians...

Yes, Hamas are a terrorist organisation...

Yes, Israel has broken customary international law...

Israel has committed war crimes and should be made to face those crimes...

I don't expect you to take off your Israel tinted glasses and agree... You will just have to learn from what happens in the future! When that time comes you can come back and have a proper debate... Until then you will simply spout your zionut propaganda and hope that everyone is a moron like your good self and believe every word of the 'Untouchable Israel'


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## Billo_Really (Dec 7, 2015)

Humanity said:


> It's a shame that you cannot see that Israeli is WRONG and does attack civilians...
> 
> Yes, Hamas are a terrorist organisation...
> 
> ...


Hamas was a terrorist organization, not so much anymore.  They're still on the terrorist list, but that's more political than factual at this point.


----------



## Indeependent (Dec 7, 2015)

Humanity said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Humanity said:
> ...



Just out of curiosity, how old are you?
Early 20s?  Late 20s?
It's just that you occasionally post stuff that makes me realize you probably weren't paying attention to what was going on in Israel circa 1998-2000.


----------



## Humanity (Dec 7, 2015)

RoccoR said:


> Humanity,  et al,
> 
> Yes, but the time is rapidly approaching when technology gaps will begin to close.  A Unmanned Aerial Vehicle (UAV) with rockets and missiles
> 
> ...



So Hamas have acquired a drone?

I bet those Israeli pilots in their F-15's and F-16's are really scared now!


----------



## Billo_Really (Dec 7, 2015)

Indeependent said:


> Just out of curiosity, how old are you?
> Early 20s?  Late 20s?
> It's just that you occasionally post stuff that makes me realize you probably weren't paying attention to what was going on in Israel circa 1998-2000.


Yeah, no rockets were fired until a year later.


----------



## Indeependent (Dec 7, 2015)

Billo_Really said:


> Humanity said:
> 
> 
> > It's a shame that you cannot see that Israeli is WRONG and does attack civilians...
> ...



You know, I really want to make you happy.
After all, it's Chanukah.
Israel targets civilians...all the time.
That's why everybody in Israel is dead...everybody...really.
There's NO ONE left.
So the IDF got bored and renamed themselves ISIS and are STILL targeting civilians.


----------



## Indeependent (Dec 7, 2015)

Billo_Really said:


> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> > Just out of curiosity, how old are you?
> ...



Just 360 Jews murdered on buses by Suicide/Homicide bombers.
What the heck...just Jews.


----------



## Billo_Really (Dec 7, 2015)

Humanity said:


> So Hamas have acquired a drone?
> 
> I bet those Israeli pilots in their F-15's and F-16's are really scared now!


You see all the whining they do over Qassam rockets, imagine if we sold them Tomahawks?


----------



## Billo_Really (Dec 7, 2015)

Indeependent said:


> You know, I really want to make you happy.
> After all, it's Chanukah.
> Israel targets civilians...all the time.
> That's why everybody in Israel is dead...everybody...really.
> ...


Civilians are the only ones they can target.  Due to the mandatory military service in Israel, they don't have any civilians.  They just have assholes on the right and cool Jews on the left.


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## Billo_Really (Dec 7, 2015)

Indeependent said:


> Just 360 Jews murdered on buses by Suicide/Homicide bombers.
> What the heck...just Jews.


Got anything more recent?


----------



## Indeependent (Dec 7, 2015)

Billo_Really said:


> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> > You know, I really want to make you happy.
> ...



You know who turned the cool Jews on the Left into assholes?
Hamas.
Who do you think told Netanyahu to bombard Gaza after Tel Aviv was threatened.
Netanyahu sure didn't give a shit about the Jews in S'Derot.


----------



## Indeependent (Dec 7, 2015)

Billo_Really said:


> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> > Just 360 Jews murdered on buses by Suicide/Homicide bombers.
> ...



I don't need to provide a detailed list of the current stabbings.


----------



## Roudy (Dec 7, 2015)

Billo_Really said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > All lies and bullshit as it's been well established that Hamas shoots rockets from homes, hospitals, and schools, while using Palestinian women and children as human shields.  They are evil Islamic terrorist scum like ISIS, and the last thing on their minds is the lives of the civilians.
> ...


I've posted proof of it a thousand times, there UN reports condemning the usage of UN schools for shooting and storing rockets, there's the Indian and Danish TV reporters that filmed Hamas shooting rockets from behind a hotel and a hospital.  Nothing new with these savages.


----------



## montelatici (Dec 7, 2015)

Roudy said:


> Billo_Really said:
> 
> 
> > Roudy said:
> ...



Closed, empty schools were for the storage of ordnance. 

Women and children were not used as human shields, by the resistance.  

"Jeremy Bowen, BBC Middle East editor: "I saw no evidence during my week in Gaza of Israel's accusation that Hamas uses Palestinians as human shields." The Guardian: "In the past week, the Guardian has seen large numbers of people fleeing different neighbourhoods.. and no evidence that Hamas had compelled them to stay." The Independent: "Some Gazans have admitted that they were afraid of criticizing Hamas, but none have said they had been forced by the organisation to stay in places of danger and become unwilling human-shields." Reuters, 2013: "A United Nations human rights body accused Israeli forces on Thursday of mistreating Palestinian children, including by torturing those in custody and using others as human shields."


Debunking Israel's 11 Main Myths About Gaza, Hamas and War Crimes


----------



## Roudy (Dec 7, 2015)

Humanity said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Humanity said:
> ...



Despite your lame false propaganda, Israel doesn't attack civilians intentionally with the intention to kill civilians but rather to go after Hamas terrorists.  Hamas on the other hand, goes after Israeli civilians exclusively.  Palestinian freedom fighting.


----------



## montelatici (Dec 7, 2015)

Roudy said:


> Humanity said:
> 
> 
> > Roudy said:
> ...



The Israelis intentionally attack civilians as part of the Dahiya doctrine.

The _Guardian_: "It was there that the second [Israeli] shell hit the beach, those firing apparently adjusting their fire to target the fleeing survivors. As it exploded, journalists standing by the terrace wall shouted: 'They are only children.'" UN high commissioner for human rights Navi Pillay: "A number of incidents, along with the high number of civilian deaths, belies the [Israeli] claim that all necessary precautions are being taken to protect civilian lives." United Nations Fact Finding Mission on the Gaza Conflict, 2009: "The tactics used by the Israeli armed forces in the Gaza offensive are consistent with previous practices, most recently during the Lebanon war in 2006. A concept known as the Dahiya doctrine emerged then, involving the application of disproportionate force and the causing of great damage and destruction to civilian property and infrastructure, and suffering to civilian populations. The Mission concludes from a review of the facts on the ground that it.. appears to have been precisely what was put into practice."


----------



## Roudy (Dec 7, 2015)

montelatici said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Billo_Really said:
> ...



Oh! The schools were CLOSED! Gee, what else would you do with closed schools, but store and shoot rockets from?  Dual purpose schools.  Ha ha ha.  OK so what about the Indian and Danish reporter video taping Hamas shooting rockets from behind a hotel and hospital, myth too?  Sure sure.


----------



## montelatici (Dec 7, 2015)

Roudy said:


> montelatici said:
> 
> 
> > Roudy said:
> ...



You mean the Telawood videos.


----------



## Roudy (Dec 7, 2015)

montelatici said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Humanity said:
> ...



zzzzz what a load of gibberish.  The Gaza offensive was to stop the 5,000 rockets being shot at Israel and Hamas terror tunnels.  

Meanwhile there is no doubt that Hamas cowards ONLY target civilians.  Such brave fighters.

Hamas = ISIS of Gaza.


----------



## Kondor3 (Dec 7, 2015)

Roudy said:


> ...Hamas = ISIS of Gaza.


And, as such, a disease, to be eradicated.


----------



## Roudy (Dec 7, 2015)

montelatici said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > montelatici said:
> ...



LOL no it's videos taken by independent reporters from India and Denmark who documented Hamas animals shooting from hospitals and hotels.  

So tell us, is it a Hamas policy that when schools close, they should be used for rocket storage?  Are they running out of places to store rockets?  Ha ha ha.


----------



## RoccoR (Dec 7, 2015)

Humanity,  et al,

In seven decades of fighting, there is little doubt that mistakes were made by the Israelis.



Humanity said:


> It's a shame that you cannot see that Israeli is WRONG and does attack civilians...
> 
> Yes, Hamas are a terrorist organisation...
> 
> ...


*(COMMENT)*

INTENT:

•  There is a great difference between individual improper behavior committed on the battlefield by the IDF.
*---AND ---*​•  The continuous attacks by the Palestinians since 1948, but in particular the early 1970's, in which they established a clear policy to attack civilians.​
There is no policy or specific plan to intentionally target Palestinians Civilians by the IDF.  However, nearly all of the Palestinian terrorist groups have adopted plans and carried out mission directed specifically against Israeli civilian, as well as other (historically).  In fact, you have seen pro-Palestinians argue, right in this discussion group, that the Palestinians have the right to attack Israelis and that the Israelis have no right of defense.

In respect to "tinted glasses" --- you are playing at the very same game that the Palestinians do.  We could fill-up pages and pages of confirmed Palestinian attacks on civilian target since before the 1972 Munich Olympics (4 decades ago); "committed as part of a plan or policy or as part of a large-scale commission of such crimes."  And we could easily demonstrate that the Palestinians have a policy of jihad.

The Palestinians act as if, and are trying to convince the world, that they are lily white victims that have never committed a crime or attack that was not in self defense.  That they are totally blameless for the fate that has befallen them.

For seven decades the Palestinians have not once put an once of effort into a viable peace process.  The commit acts of war that any other Western of Arab country would crush them for, yet claim Israel has no room for complaint. 

*(FOOD FOR THOUGHT)*



 


Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## Roudy (Dec 7, 2015)

I find it hilarious when they complain about "civilian" Palestinian deaths (that Hamas itself is responsible for), but don't have a word of condemnation towards Hamas who targets Israeli kids and women like bloodthirsty savages.


----------



## RoccoR (Dec 7, 2015)

Humanity,  et al,

Yeah, At first blush, I thought the same thing.  But I'm chuckling with you.



Humanity said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > Humanity,  et al,
> ...


*(COMMENT)*

I'm not sure how many they have, or if HAMAS _(whichever military wing has these resources)_ actually have a real implementation plan.  Nor am I sure, which side that particular UAV represents a danger to.  If the Palestinian launch a UAV, it has to go back home.  All the Israelis have to do is double tap the bunker or HAZ that is home.  I'm wondering how it is guided.  Surely it wouldn't be by satellite down link.  So if it is running a set mission programmed-in, then it becomes really vulnerable.  Theoretically, the Israelis could take control of it.

I'm not sure what kind of missile/rocket it has.  But I'm betting the Israelis know now that they have one.

My point was, that they are (some how) making progress in the arena of more sophisticated devices.

Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## montelatici (Dec 7, 2015)

Roudy said:


> montelatici said:
> 
> 
> > Roudy said:
> ...



No, they were Israeli produced Telawood videos.  They were debunked long ago.

As long as the facilities are closed and empty of civilians, and are owned by the combatant they can be converted to military use.  The problem is they were UN schools, hence the resistance was wrong in using them.  I would steer clear from calling combatants that are simply fighting against Israeli aggression "animals".


----------



## P F Tinmore (Dec 7, 2015)

Billo_Really said:


> Here's a graph of the location Gazan's were injured...


----------



## montelatici (Dec 7, 2015)

RoccoR said:


> Humanity,  et al,
> 
> In seven decades of fighting, there is little doubt that mistakes were made by the Israelis.
> 
> ...



Food for thought.


*America Is the Only Country with a Favorable View of Israel*


----------



## RoccoR (Dec 7, 2015)

Billo_Really,  et al,

This is more accurate then most people think.



Billo_Really said:


> Hamas was a terrorist organization, not so much anymore.  They're still on the terrorist list, but that's more political than factual at this point.


*(COMMENT)*

There is a branch, in the evolutionary development of terrorist organizations, that demonstrates that terrorist organizations can become something different then what they initially started out to be.

Much like the Sinn Féin, which split from the Irish Republican Army (IRA), and began to concentrate on political and parliamentary tactics to advance their cause; the IRA’s use of violence to protect the Catholics in Northern Ireland and end British control was a militant agenda they abandon.  While the Sinn Féin was fully recognized and legally registered party in Ireland, it was banned in the UK until 1974; as many of its leaders were thought to be members of the IRA. 

Anyway, The Islamic Resistance Movement has some serious evolution to go through in order to really become legitimized as a true political party.  We see the beginnings of this as the military wings become more and more autonomous; operating more independently.   While anything is possible, I don't see it happening in our life-time.  In fact, there is just as equal a chance that there will be a civil war between Palestinian Factions that want to focus on economic and industrial opportunities --- and ---- those that want to continue a struggle that is just retarding their improvements in the standard of living and the quality of life.

Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## RoccoR (Dec 7, 2015)

montelatici,  et al,

Here we are again, comparing apples and oranges.



montelatici said:


> *America Is the Only Country with a Favorable View of Israel*


*(COMMENT)*

Your 2012 Data on Israel is about how well the countries of the world like Israel.

My 2014 is about how well the Americans like HAMAS.

Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## P F Tinmore (Dec 7, 2015)

RoccoR said:


> Billo_Really,  et al,
> 
> This is more accurate then most people think.
> 
> ...


Anyway, The Islamic Resistance Movement has some serious evolution to go through in order to really become legitimized as a true political party.​
Indeed, one of the first things they did was to offer a ceasefire.

Israel rejected the proposal.


----------



## montelatici (Dec 7, 2015)

RoccoR said:


> montelatici,  et al,
> 
> Here we are again, comparing apples and oranges.
> 
> ...



And?

How about 21023-2014?


----------



## Hollie (Dec 7, 2015)

P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > Billo_Really,  et al,
> ...


A video from 2007? 

Strange, tinny, but that was only 2 years, thereabouts, after Hamas occupied Gaza following Israel's unilateral withdraw and two years of Hamas committing acts of war by firing rockets at Israeli civilians.

I guess dishonesty and fraud is an assist to promoting Islamic terrorists as wanting peace.


----------



## Hollie (Dec 7, 2015)

montelatici said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > Humanity,  et al,
> ...


Food for thought. You're spamming the thread with off topic cutting and pasting.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Dec 7, 2015)

Hollie said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > RoccoR said:
> ...


Hamas never occupied Gaza.

You have been misinformed.


----------



## Billo_Really (Dec 7, 2015)

Indeependent said:


> Who do you think told Netanyahu to bombard Gaza after Tel Aviv was threatened.


It wasn't the Israeli left.


----------



## Indeependent (Dec 7, 2015)

Billo_Really said:


> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> > Who do you think told Netanyahu to bombard Gaza after Tel Aviv was threatened.
> ...



Yes it was.  Well, you may be right, because after Tel Aviv was lobbed at, there were more Leftists.
And keep repeating the word...Tunnels.


----------



## Billo_Really (Dec 7, 2015)

Indeependent said:


> I don't need to provide a detailed list of the current stabbings.


It's best you don't go there.  The stabbings were either Palestinian youth sick of the occupation, or Israeli hit squads murdering innocent civilians in cold blood, then placing butter knives next to so they could kick them away and claim self defense.


----------



## Indeependent (Dec 7, 2015)

Billo_Really said:


> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> > I don't need to provide a detailed list of the current stabbings.
> ...



Drinking a bit?


----------



## Billo_Really (Dec 7, 2015)

Roudy said:


> I've posted proof of it a thousand times, there UN reports condemning the usage of UN schools for shooting and storing rockets, there's the Indian and Danish TV reporters that filmed Hamas shooting rockets from behind a hotel and a hospital.  Nothing new with these savages.


You haven't posted jack shit regarding the PHR report.  And you didn't answer my question.

Why would they lie?


----------



## Indeependent (Dec 7, 2015)

Billo_Really said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > I've posted proof of it a thousand times, there UN reports condemning the usage of UN schools for shooting and storing rockets, there's the Indian and Danish TV reporters that filmed Hamas shooting rockets from behind a hotel and a hospital.  Nothing new with these savages.
> ...



Ever see what happens to honest reporters when Hamas gets a hold of them?


----------



## Billo_Really (Dec 7, 2015)

Roudy said:


> Oh! The schools were CLOSED! Gee, what else would you do with closed schools, but store and shoot rockets from?  Dual purpose schools.  Ha ha ha.  OK so what about the Indian and Danish reporter video taping Hamas shooting rockets from behind a hotel and hospital, myth too?  Sure sure.


Were those Pallywood videos?


----------



## Billo_Really (Dec 7, 2015)

Hollie said:


> A video from 2007?
> 
> Strange, tinny, but that was only 2 years, thereabouts, after Hamas occupied Gaza following Israel's unilateral withdraw and two years of Hamas committing acts of war by firing rockets at Israeli civilians.
> 
> I guess dishonesty and fraud is an assist to promoting Islamic terrorists as wanting peace.


Israel didn't withdraw, they maintained the blockade, which punished all 1.5 million people in Gaza.  And that is a war crime.  Collective punishment.  It's also another example of Israel targeting innocent civilians who've committed no crime.


----------



## Billo_Really (Dec 7, 2015)

Indeependent said:


> Ever see what happens to honest reporters when Hamas gets a hold of them?


Well, that can't happen, because Israel won't allow any independent journalists into the area.

They won't even allow you into the area because of your user name.


----------



## Indeependent (Dec 7, 2015)

Billo_Really said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> > A video from 2007?
> ...



When's the last time authorities in Gaza arrested someone for building a tunnel into Egypt?


----------



## Indeependent (Dec 7, 2015)

Billo_Really said:


> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> > Ever see what happens to honest reporters when Hamas gets a hold of them?
> ...



Muslim terrorists have done their share of "Warning" Beheadings on honest reporters.
Not that you ever notice any Muslim non-human behavior.


----------



## Billo_Really (Dec 7, 2015)

Indeependent said:


> Drinking a bit?


I'm having my first one now.

And no civilians will be targeted during this binge (except you fuckers).


----------



## Billo_Really (Dec 7, 2015)

Indeependent said:


> Muslim terrorists have done their share of "Warning" Beheadings on honest reporters.
> Not that you ever notice any Muslim non-human behavior.


Oh, we notice.  We just can't discuss it.  New rules in all.

This thread is about Israel's inhuman behavior.


----------



## Billo_Really (Dec 7, 2015)

Indeependent said:


> When's the last time authorities in Gaza arrested someone for building a tunnel into Egypt?


End the blockade and they won't need tunnels.


----------



## Roudy (Dec 8, 2015)

montelatici said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > montelatici said:
> ...



Truth, cannot be "debunked".   This subject has been discussed and proven many times before.  A journalist from India and another from Denmark filmed and documented Hamas shooting rockets from hospitals and hotels.  And you already admitted that Hamas stored their rockets in "closed" schools, many times, which caused the UN to issue warnings and objections.  So I don't even see what the discussion is here, the depraved animals used a school as an ammo storage warehouse.  

So excuse us when we laugh at this totally false outrage about "civilians", when those who are shooting rockets at Israeli civilians, are actually using their own civilians as human shields and rocket launching sites.

Palestinian terrorist animals are no different that ISIS terrorist animals.  Same Islamic shit wanting to establish a caliphate, different location.  You can call them whatever you want.


----------



## Roudy (Dec 8, 2015)

Billo_Really said:


> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> > When's the last time authorities in Gaza arrested someone for building a tunnel into Egypt?
> ...


Try answering the question next time.


----------



## Roudy (Dec 8, 2015)

Billo_Really said:


> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> > Muslim terrorists have done their share of "Warning" Beheadings on honest reporters.
> ...


Really?  Title poses a question which happens to be true about Palestinians.


----------



## Humanity (Dec 8, 2015)

Indeependent said:


> Humanity said:
> 
> 
> > Roudy said:
> ...



Really?

What piece of information did I miss that was going on in Israel 1998 - 2000?

I look forward to being educated by YOU! hahahahaha


----------



## Hollie (Dec 8, 2015)

Billo_Really said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> > A video from 2007?
> ...


The blockade was a requirement to prevent Pal'istanian islamic terrorist attacks. The Islamic retrogrades were committing acts of war. That caused Israel to respond. You seem to believe your Islamic retrograde heroes have an entitlement to acts of Islamic terrorism. Israel believes otherwise, hence the Islamic retrogrades are throttled.


----------



## Billo_Really (Dec 8, 2015)

Hollie said:


> The blockade was a requirement to prevent Pal'istanian islamic terrorist attacks. The Islamic retrogrades were committing acts of war. That caused Israel to respond. You seem to believe your Islamic retrograde heroes have an entitlement to acts of Islamic terrorism. Israel believes otherwise, hence the Islamic retrogrades are throttled.


The blockade was to punish Gazans for not voting for Israel's bitch (Fatah), in their elections.

BTW, defending your home from foreign aggression, is not terrorism.


----------



## Billo_Really (Dec 8, 2015)

Roudy said:


> Really?  Title poses a question which happens to be true about Palestinians.


This is a perfect example of the psychotic mind of an Israeli ass-kisser.

No where in the title of this thread, do you see the word.........._*Palestinian.*_

And the "question" that is posed, is about Israel deliberately targeting people who take no part in hostilities.


----------



## Billo_Really (Dec 8, 2015)

Roudy said:


> Try answering the question next time.


Would West Germany had arrested the pilots of the Berlin airlift?

Why would Hamas arrest someone bringing in goods and services to that community, that Israel won't allow?


----------



## Hollie (Dec 8, 2015)

Billo_Really said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> > The blockade was a requirement to prevent Pal'istanian islamic terrorist attacks. The Islamic retrogrades were committing acts of war. That caused Israel to respond. You seem to believe your Islamic retrograde heroes have an entitlement to acts of Islamic terrorism. Israel believes otherwise, hence the Islamic retrogrades are throttled.
> ...


Conspiracy theories aren't going to help your failed arguments.

BTW, in the relevant first world, we don't accept Islamic terrorist acts of war as defending anything.


----------



## Kondor3 (Dec 8, 2015)

Hollie said:


> Billo_Really said:
> 
> 
> > Hollie said:
> ...


There is no arguing with Palestinians and their propaganda stooges.

That's why God invented laser-guided bombs. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




Bombs that only kill civilians *un*-intentionally, when Palestinian cowards embed their war-assets amongst their civilian population, like the weasels they are.


----------



## Rehmani (Dec 8, 2015)

Delta4Embassy said:


> fanger said:
> 
> 
> > Looks like they do
> ...


Means all jews are terrorist.


----------



## Kondor3 (Dec 8, 2015)

Rehmani said:


> Delta4Embassy said:
> 
> 
> > fanger said:
> ...


No, it just means that the shoe is now (finally) on the other foot, and that those pesky Dhimmi Jews are now kicking your arse on a regular basis. Enjoy.

Stop embedding your war assets amongst your civilian population so as to trigger civilian casualties... stop hiding behind your women and children like cowards


----------



## Rehmani (Dec 8, 2015)

Hollie said:


> Billo_Really said:
> 
> 
> > Hollie said:
> ...


You can not call freedom fighter terrorist but invaders are terrorist.


----------



## Kondor3 (Dec 8, 2015)

Rehmani said:


> ...You can not call freedom fighter terrorist but invaders are terrorist.


True. So when are the so-called Palestinian squatter-invaders going to pack up and leave for the east bank of the Jordan, where they belong now?

The sooner they do, the sooner the casualties will stop - intentional or otherwise.

Leave.


----------



## Rehmani (Dec 8, 2015)

fanger said:


> Not all civilians are terrorists


But all Israelis are terrorist, who supporting the aggression and invasion.


----------



## Rehmani (Dec 8, 2015)

Kondor3 said:


> Rehmani said:
> 
> 
> > ...You can not call freedom fighter terrorist but invaders are terrorist.
> ...


Well soon your mind set would apply on jews in Israel, then don't change it.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Dec 8, 2015)

Kondor3 said:


> Rehmani said:
> 
> 
> > ...You can not call freedom fighter terrorist but invaders are terrorist.
> ...


Link?


----------



## Kondor3 (Dec 8, 2015)

P F Tinmore said:


> Kondor3 said:
> 
> 
> > Rehmani said:
> ...


Link to what?

Link to "i_f one side in a conflict abandons the conflict and re-locates beyond the territories claimed by their adversaries, that the shooting will stop_" ?

Link to "_if the shooting stops, then there are no more casualties from the conflict, intentional or otherwise_" ?

No link needed.

Logic will suffice, to facilitate such speculation.

Or you(r side) can continue to die in-place.

Either choice is acceptable.

But how much better for the so-called Muslim Palestinians to choose life, in peace and safety, someplace where they can actually build a future.

Like on the east bank of the Jordan.

Leave.


----------



## Rehmani (Dec 8, 2015)

Kondor3 said:


> Rehmani said:
> 
> 
> > Delta4Embassy said:
> ...


Did Israelis terrorist left any ground, invaders occupied every inch of their home land for last 70 years.


----------



## Kondor3 (Dec 8, 2015)

Rehmani said:


> ...Did Israelis terrorist left any ground, invaders occupied every inch of their home land for last 70 years.


Plenty of unpopulated or sparsely populated land nearby in which to place war assets.

Besides, after 67 years of losing, time and again and again and again and again, it's time for the Pals to snap out of it, face Reality, and get the hell outta Dodge.


----------



## Rehmani (Dec 8, 2015)

Kondor3 said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Kondor3 said:
> ...


Then why not, jews stuck around Telaviv in Israel. Why jews invade home land of Palestinian.


----------



## Rehmani (Dec 8, 2015)

Rehmani said:


> Kondor3 said:
> 
> 
> > Rehmani said:
> ...


I know you don't have answer. Sound like you are not friend of either side.


----------



## Rehmani (Dec 8, 2015)

Kondor3 said:


> Rehmani said:
> 
> 
> > ...Did Israelis terrorist left any ground, invaders occupied every inch of their home land for last 70 years.
> ...


Well then why don't you advise to jews about it. And USA already accommodating jew nicely. why they come to holy land and destroy the peace, last 900 years.


----------



## RoccoR (Dec 8, 2015)

Billo_Really, Hollie, et al,

Oh Billo_Really, --- our friend "Hollie" is on target with her two commentaries.



Hollie said:


> Billo_Really said:
> 
> 
> > Hollie said:
> ...


*(COMMENT)*

On the matter of terrorism as a means of defense, "Hollie" is correct!  As UN Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon’s said:  "Nothing can justify terrorism — ever.  No grievance, no goal, no cause can excuse terrorist acts."  When the Hostile Arab Palestinians (HoAPs) attempt, though deadly asymmetric means, to intimidate or coerce the Israeli civilian population as a strategy to bend Israeli National policy to the will of the Palestinian --- that is terrorism.   To attack the civilian population to affect or influence the conduct of the Israeli government --- that is terrorism.  Noting that terrorist attacks by means of bombs, explosives or other incendiary or lethal devices have become increasingly widespread, and stressing the need to supplement the existing legal instruments in order to address specifically the problem of terrorist attacks carried out by such means, is illegal (A/RES/51/210. Measures to eliminate international terrorism).

Remembering that:  UN Security Council Resolution S/RES/1624 (2005)

Calls upon all States to adopt such measures as may be necessary and appropriate and in accordance with their obligations under international law to: 

(a) Prohibit by law incitement to commit a terrorist act or acts; 
(b) Prevent such conduct; 
(c) Deny safe haven to any persons with respect to whom there is credible and relevant information giving serious reasons for considering that they have been guilty of such conduct;​Calls upon all States to cooperate, inter alia, to strengthen the security of their international borders, including by combating fraudulent travel documents and, to the extent attainable, by enhancing terrorist screening and passenger security procedures with a view to preventing those guilty of the conduct in paragraph 1 (a) from entering their territory;
Calls upon all States to continue international efforts to enhance dialogue and broaden understanding among civilizations, in an effort to prevent the indiscriminate targeting of different religions and cultures, and to take all measures as may be necessary and appropriate and in accordance with their obligations under international law to counter incitement of terrorist acts motivated by extremism and intolerance and to prevent the subversion of educational, cultural, and religious institutions by terrorists and their supporters;​
There is absolutely no legal basis for the use of terrorism to in the false justification you present.

On the matter of the blockade as a punishment "Gazans for not voting for Israel's bitch (Fatah), in their elections."  This is entirely false.  It was a propaganda effort by the HoAP to filter the truth and redirect the dialog in a different direction.  Between 2005 (the Unilateral Withdrawal from Gaza) and 2009 (establishment of the Blockade); the Islamic Resistance Movement launched some 7300 missiles and rockets into Israel.  After the Blockade is instituted, in concert with strengthened border controls (per UNSC Res 1624), the number of missile and rocket attacks dramatically dropped.





Our friend "Hollie's" observations were on track.  The institution of the Blockade had nothing what-so-ever to do with political punishment.  Yes, there was grave disappointment that the Palestinian People voted in a Terrorist organization into a leadership role.  After January 2006, there was a sharp increase in rocket and missile attacks; doubling from the 2005 level to the 2006.  The number of launches again doubled in 2007 by the 2006 levels.  And as you can see from the chart, there was a significant increase in launches in the year 2008 over the year 2007.  BUT, in January 2009, the Blockade is activated and the number of launches decrease by over 75%.

Of course the Blockade was not a perfect solution, but it was fairly effective as a single countermeasure to the infiltration of weapons; complementing well other security countermeasures that were instituted that year.

Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## RoccoR (Dec 8, 2015)

Rehmani,  et al,

Yes, like the idea of colonization, this idea of invasion is also bent to fit the profile of a victim; as if it were true.



Rehmani said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> > Billo_Really said:
> ...


*(COMMENT)*

After the Unconditional surrender of the Ottoman Empire (1916); the territory was placed under the Enemy Occupied Territory Administration; in which the Allied Powers assumed control.   After that point, there was no naval operation where landing craft lined-up and brought-in a military force to conquer an opposing force.  Similarly, there were no further ground invasion.  It was all allied controlled.

The entire concept that anyone that entered the country was an "invader" in the eyes of the Arab, was totally erroneous.  The Arabs had not been given control of any territory.  You can not be invaded if you have nothing to invade.  North of the Kingdom of Hejaz _(Hashemite royal family rule)_; and North of the central plateau known as the Najd _(later to be known as the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia --- House of Saud is the ruling royal family)_, there were no Arab sovereignties.  

So, anything the Allied Powers did, to include opening immigration, was well within there authority.

Freedom Fighters are separate and distinct from terrorist.  If you are a heroic Freedom Fighter, there were marks of chivalry associated with the campaign.  The HoAP which deliberately attempt, kidnap, murder and maim civilians as the Palestinians openly admit to, are terrorists.  _(Turkey hereby renounces all rights and title whatsoever over or respecting the territories situated outside the frontiers laid down in the present Treaty and the islands other than those over which her sovereignty is recognised by the said Treaty, the future of these territories and islands being settled or to be settled by the parties concerned.)_

Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## Billo_Really (Dec 8, 2015)

Hollie said:


> Conspiracy theories aren't going to help your failed arguments.


It's not a conspiracy theory, it's part of the historical record.  The reason Israel considers Hamas public enemy no.1, is because Hamas won't kiss their ass and can't be bought, like Fatah did.





Hollie said:


> BTW, in the relevant first world, we don't accept Islamic terrorist acts of war as defending anything.


It's not a terrorist act and it's not an act of war; the act of war, has been the occupation the Israeli's have maintained since the '67 war.  The Pals have every legal right in the world to resist.

BTW, they target more military assets than the Israeli's do.


----------



## Hollie (Dec 8, 2015)

Billo_Really said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> > Conspiracy theories aren't going to help your failed arguments.
> ...


Well sorry, but you're still consumed with conspiracy theories as a way to defend Islamic terrorism.


----------



## Billo_Really (Dec 8, 2015)

RoccoR said:


> Billo_Really, Hollie, et al,
> 
> Oh Billo_Really, --- our friend "Hollie" is on target with her two commentaries.
> 
> ...


How can you possibly claim they attack the civilian population, when only 28 people have died in 14 years of rocket attacks.

End the occupation and you won't get rockets.


----------



## Billo_Really (Dec 8, 2015)

Hollie said:


> Well sorry, but you're still consumed with conspiracy theories as a way to defend Islamic terrorism.


We'll have to agree to disagree on that one.

I'll tell you what is a conspiracy theory, the notion Israel doesn't target civilians.


----------



## Hollie (Dec 8, 2015)

Billo_Really said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > Billo_Really, Hollie, et al,
> ...


"14 years of rocket attacks". 

But.... but...... but......but I thought you and others were coming the Islamist terrorists of Hamas were _freedom fighters™_ or an islamic terrorist _resistance group_™.

End Islamic terrorism and Pal'istanian Islamic terrorist supporters won't die as a result of Hamas cowards hiding behind women and children when the Israel responds to those Islamic terrorist attacks.


----------



## montelatici (Dec 8, 2015)

Native people attacking colonizing settlers cannot, by definition, be considered terrorism. Unfortunately, it is only after decades and centuries that this fact becomes apparent.

While I firmly believe that peaceful means to achieve freedom are preferable, the Vicious Israeli Jew Occupier (ViJO) is responsible for the armed struggle of the native people of Palestine, after all, they traveled to Palestine with the intent to colonize the land and displace the native people by dispossessing the native people of the land they owned. (The Christians and Muslims owned 95% of the land in Palestine prior to partition)

Native people anywhere, therefore, have every right to resist colonization.

Today, no one would call the attacks on the Europeans (military or civilian settlers) by the Native Americans, terrorism.  Because, it was not terrorism it was resistance to colonization. Palestinian resistance is resistance to occupation. Geronimo was considered a savage terrorist and was hunted down by the U.S., today he is considered a hero of the native american resistance by most Americans, not just native Americans. Sitting Bull, Crazy Horse etc. are now considered resistance heroes their European contemporaries considered them dangerous terrorists because they resisted colonization and occupation of their land.

UN Resolutions enshrine the right of native people to resist colonization/occupation:

Resolution A/RES/33/24 of 29 November 1978:

“2. Reaffirms the legitimacy of the struggle of peoples for independence, territorial integrity, national unity and liberation from colonial and foreign domination and foreign occupation* by all available means, particularly armed struggle*;”

and Resolution A/RES/3246 (XXIX) of 29 November 1974, which specifically applies this right to the Palestinian people:

3. Reaffirms the legitimacy of the peoples’ struggle for liberation form colonial and foreign domination and alien subjugation *by all available means, including armed struggle; …*
7. Strongly condemns all Governments which do not recognize the right to self-determination and independence of peoples under colonial and foreign domination and alien subjugation, notably the peoples of Africa and* the Palestinian people;*


----------



## Hollie (Dec 8, 2015)

Billo_Really said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> > Well sorry, but you're still consumed with conspiracy theories as a way to defend Islamic terrorism.
> ...


Neither you nor any of the other Islamic terrorist Pom Pom flailers have ever made a defendable case that Israel targets civilians.

Pal'istanian die as a result of the Hamas cowards you so admire committing acts of war from civilian areas. 

This has been addressed so often and the facts of Islamic terrorists launching attacks from civilian areas well documented that your continued denial is just one more example of your need to believe in conspiracy theories as opposed to facts.

Poor you.


----------



## Hollie (Dec 8, 2015)

montelatici said:


> Native people attacking colonizing settlers cannot, by definition, be considered terrorism. Unfortunately, it is only after decades and centuries that this fact becomes apparent.
> 
> While I firmly believe that peaceful means to achieve freedom are preferable, the Vicious Israeli Jew Occupier (ViJO) is responsible for the armed struggle of the native people of Palestine, after all, they traveled to Palestine with the intent to colonize the land and displace the native people by dispossessing the native people of the land they owned. (The Christians and Muslims owned 95% of the land in Palestine prior to partition)
> 
> ...


False analogies cannot, by definition, be taken as a legitimate excuse for acts of Islamic terrorism.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Dec 8, 2015)

Billo_Really said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> > Well sorry, but you're still consumed with conspiracy theories as a way to defend Islamic terrorism.
> ...


----------



## Hollie (Dec 8, 2015)

P F Tinmore said:


> Billo_Really said:
> 
> 
> > Hollie said:
> ...


The _war on Gaza_™ was israeli resistance to Islamic terrorist aggression. 

"14 years of (islamic terrorist) rocket attacks". How fortunate that the Israeli defense forces act with restraint.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Dec 8, 2015)

RoccoR said:


> Billo_Really, Hollie, et al,
> 
> Oh Billo_Really, --- our friend "Hollie" is on target with her two commentaries.
> 
> ...


Yes, there was grave disappointment that the Palestinian People voted in a Terrorist organization into a leadership role.​
They aren't terrorists in Palestine where they were elected. They are only terrorists to the third grade name callers in the west.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Dec 8, 2015)

RoccoR said:


> Billo_Really, Hollie, et al,
> 
> Oh Billo_Really, --- our friend "Hollie" is on target with her two commentaries.
> 
> ...


After January 2006, there was a sharp increase in rocket and missile attacks; doubling from the 2005 level to the 2006.​
What about all of the attacks on the Palestinians?

Oh, that's right, your favorite Israeli propaganda sources never mention those.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Dec 8, 2015)

Hollie said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Billo_Really said:
> ...


Pffft.

Not!


----------



## Humanity (Dec 8, 2015)

Israel, as the occupying power, has a legal responsibility to protect the civilians of occupied land, that includes territory that Israel controls....

Strange as that may seem, it does NOT give Israel the right to bomb civilians, no matter what their fabled 'objectives'....


----------



## P F Tinmore (Dec 8, 2015)

montelatici said:


> Native people attacking colonizing settlers cannot, by definition, be considered terrorism. Unfortunately, it is only after decades and centuries that this fact becomes apparent.
> 
> While I firmly believe that peaceful means to achieve freedom are preferable, the Vicious Israeli Jew Occupier (ViJO) is responsible for the armed struggle of the native people of Palestine, after all, they traveled to Palestine with the intent to colonize the land and displace the native people by dispossessing the native people of the land they owned. (The Christians and Muslims owned 95% of the land in Palestine prior to partition)
> 
> ...


Don't confuse the Israeli propagandists with facts.

Israel is a fact free zone.


----------



## Hollie (Dec 8, 2015)

P F Tinmore said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...


I was convinced you would dodge and sidestep addressing the facts. Why is it that rocket attacks aimed at israel increased after the occupation of Gaza by Hamas? 

I understand that you're in denial of the connection between Islamic terrorist attacks by Hamas and the inevitable response by Israel to stop those attacks, but why would you think that others would share your denials?


----------



## P F Tinmore (Dec 8, 2015)

Hollie said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Hollie said:
> ...


False question. Hamas does not occupy Gaza.


----------



## Muhammed (Dec 8, 2015)

fanger said:


> Looks like they do


Looks can be deceiving.


----------



## Roudy (Dec 8, 2015)

Billo_Really said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Really?  Title poses a question which happens to be true about Palestinians.
> ...



As I said the title poses a question which is actually very true about Palestinians. 

Notice how not one of you denies or condemns that Palestinians are constantly targeting innocent Israeli civilians, while having hissy fits over Israel's right to defend themselves against these terrorist animals.


----------



## Roudy (Dec 8, 2015)

Billo_Really said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Try answering the question next time.
> ...



They're tunnels designed to commit terror. Get over it.


----------



## Roudy (Dec 8, 2015)

Rehmani said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> > Billo_Really said:
> ...



ISIS and Al Queda also call their terrorists freedom or resistance fighters. To the rest of the world, however, they're Islamic terrorist animals, as are the Hamas fighters.


----------



## Humanity (Dec 8, 2015)

Roudy said:


> Rehmani said:
> 
> 
> > Hollie said:
> ...



Link!


----------



## Hollie (Dec 8, 2015)

P F Tinmore said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...


That was a poor attempt at sidestepping and evasion. Rocket fire aimed at Israel from the Islamic terrorists occupying Gaza increased dramatically after the Islamist occupation. 

Your denials don't change the fact of Islamist terrorist attacks and the expected retaliation from Israel to defend its citizens.

Dead Pal'istanians make for happy-fun propaganda oozing from the islamic terrorist cabal but islamist terrorism is not an entitlement. It has consequences.


----------



## Roudy (Dec 8, 2015)

Billo_Really said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> > Conspiracy theories aren't going to help your failed arguments.
> ...



So you shouldn't be complaining about civilian casualties when Palestinians make it their business to target Israeli civilians, only.


----------



## Roudy (Dec 8, 2015)

Humanity said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Rehmani said:
> ...



LOL!  It wants a link that ISIS doesn't call it's fighters "terrorists".  Terrorist groups like ISIS and Hamas are all about glamorizing terrorism.  If you don't know this basic fact then you aren't living on the same planet.


----------



## Roudy (Dec 8, 2015)

Billo_Really said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> > Well sorry, but you're still consumed with conspiracy theories as a way to defend Islamic terrorism.
> ...


It doesn't, it targets terrorists, their infrastructure, their homes, and their places of business. Do civilians die, sure, as they do when civilians die in US actions, but are they the target? No.  Do Palestinians target Isrseli civilians?  Hell yes!  Everytime. Your argument is dead on arrival.


----------



## Humanity (Dec 8, 2015)

Roudy said:


> Humanity said:
> 
> 
> > Roudy said:
> ...



LOL... It can spout whatever it wants but it cannot provide a link to support its dross! 

That's a big fat fail roodboy!

But, in the act of fairness, I will try again and see if you can provide a link....

"ISIS and Al Queda also call their terrorists freedom or resistance fighters."

LINK!


----------



## Roudy (Dec 8, 2015)

Humanity said:


> Israel, as the occupying power, has a legal responsibility to protect the civilians of occupied land, that includes territory that Israel controls....
> 
> Strange as that may seem, it does NOT give Israel the right to bomb civilians, no matter what their fabled 'objectives'....



Really, so you think Palestinian animals have a right to slaughter Isrseli civilians but Isrselis have a legal responsibility not to defend themselves according to how they see fit?  Ha ha ha. Typical terrorist appeaser mindset.


----------



## Roudy (Dec 8, 2015)

Humanity said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Humanity said:
> ...



Even the leader of Hamas called Osama Bin Laden a holy warrior and freedom fighter. Case closed.


----------



## Humanity (Dec 8, 2015)

Roudy said:


> Humanity said:
> 
> 
> > Israel, as the occupying power, has a legal responsibility to protect the civilians of occupied land, that includes territory that Israel controls....
> ...



English comprehension not your strong point is it roodboy!

Read my post and have another try...


----------



## Humanity (Dec 8, 2015)

Roudy said:


> Humanity said:
> 
> 
> > Roudy said:
> ...



Link!


----------



## Roudy (Dec 8, 2015)

Humanity said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Humanity said:
> ...



Yes, you ignoramus, all of these Islamic terrorist groups, Hamas, Al Queda, ISIS, Hezbollah, etc. consider themselves "Islamic resistance movements" in fact that is the literal translation for Hamas, therefore their fighters are considered resistant fighters fighting for freedom for Muslims (although it's freedom to practice Shariah in a fully Islamic caliphate that is).  I feel like I'm talking to a teenager with zero knowledge.


----------



## Roudy (Dec 8, 2015)

Humanity said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Humanity said:
> ...



Link link link!  Ha ha ha.  Hamas leader wept for his hero Bin Laden, one terrorist leader mourns another:

The mourners of bin Laden


----------



## Roudy (Dec 8, 2015)

Humanity said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Humanity said:
> ...



I did.  You talk about civilian casualties but fail to focus on the Palestinians who constantly target civilians. Do you think they have a legal right to target Israeli civilians like the ISIS savages do in the West?  Oh but wait, Israel cannot respond. Ha ha ha.  Good one.


----------



## RoccoR (Dec 8, 2015)

Billo_Really,  et al,

Well, I have two things to say about this.



Billo_Really said:


> [How can you possibly claim they attack the civilian population, when only 28 people have died in 14 years of rocket attacks.
> 
> End the occupation and you won't get rockets.


*(COMMENT)*

At least 1,198 Israelis have been killed by Palestinian since September 29, 2000. (15 years).  Just because the effective defense of the Israelis, combined with the ineffective rocket and missile program of the Palestinians, results in a disproportionate casualty rate, does not mean that is was harmless and should be ignored.

The deadly threat to be taken seriously is when the Palestinian failed or aborted attempt to Israeli citizens. Just like other crimes, the attempt consists of both an action and an intention. In attempt to kill Israelis, a Palestinian must take a direct step towards the killing _(Launching)_ and must have the specific intent to kill Israeli _(Targeted Israel)_.  The depraved indifference of the Palestinians focuses on the risk to Israeli life created by the Palestinian’s conduct, NOT the casualties actually resulting _(numbers are not that important --- the numbers go to "magnitude")_.  It is the wanton character of the Palestinian, so deficient in a moral sense of concern, so lacking in regard for the life or lives of others, that it constitutes an act that is imminently dangerous and presented a very high risk of death AND an unreasonable threat to the safety and security of the citizens of Israel and the Sovereignty of the State.  If you want to know who the Palestinians are, well here it is in a demonstrated form.

One last POINT:  In 2005, the IDF began a withdrawal from the Gaza Strip in which the disengagement was completed in September of that year.  What did it prove.  It proves that the Palestinians cannot be trusted.  In 2005 the Palestinians launched over 400 rocket into Israel.  After the disengagement, the Palestinians more than doubled the launch effort.  (Over the last 15 years, over 15,000 launches were made into Israel.)

NOTE:  We have begun to take about the more conventional terrorist approach of Kidnap and Murder.  Nor have we talked about the intentional attempts by Palestinian Leaders to incite violence. ​
Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## P F Tinmore (Dec 8, 2015)

Roudy said:


> Humanity said:
> 
> 
> > Roudy said:
> ...


Even Israel glamorizes its terrorism by calling it self defense.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Dec 8, 2015)

RoccoR said:


> Billo_Really,  et al,
> 
> Well, I have two things to say about this.
> 
> ...


End the occupation and you won't get rockets.​
Where in all that did you address the point?


----------



## RoccoR (Dec 8, 2015)

P F Tinmore,  et al,

Well, I cut and trimmed it for you.



P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > *(COMMENT)*
> ...


*(COMMENT)*

The Palestinians have already demonstrated that they cannot be trusted to "end the threat" if the occupation ends.  That theory was battle tested with the Gaza Strip in 2005 and 2006.

Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## flacaltenn (Dec 8, 2015)

*Moderation Message:*

*Can't really see the OP topic in this anymore.. Time to close...*


----------



## flacaltenn (Dec 8, 2015)

*Moderation Message:

I closed the this thread because some members were close to getting warnings for going off topic. 
Since -- I've received requests to reopen. This will be a good test to see who stays on the OP topic. 
No whining about any warnings that might result.. 

Reopened.. *


----------



## Roudy (Dec 8, 2015)

P F Tinmore said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Humanity said:
> ...



You can't commit terrorism against Israelis and then complain when Israel drops the hammer on the terrorists. Like I said if you don't want civilian casualties to occur, stop attacking Israeli civilians and then complain about civilian casualties when the terrorists hide behind civilians.


----------



## Hollie (Dec 8, 2015)

34 pages and still nothing to indicate that Israel targets Pal'istanian civilians.


----------



## Humanity (Dec 8, 2015)

Roudy said:


> Humanity said:
> 
> 
> > Roudy said:
> ...



You read it??!! Wow...

Shame you weren't able to process it and give a sensible answer based upon my post, rather choosing to throw out your usual, brainwashed zionut BS!


----------



## Humanity (Dec 8, 2015)

Hollie said:


> 34 pages and still nothing to indicate that Israel targets Pal'istanian civilians.



The Palestine people do not have a military... Thus, every death is a civilian death!

"The Palestinian people do not have a military, so the usual classification of civilian is not being used. Instead B'Tselem provides data on the number of Palestinians who did not participate in hostilities, a significantly more stringent qualification than the one used to identify Israeli civilians. We do not know how many of the Israelis listed as civilians participated in the hostilities. Many settlers who illegally have taken over parts of the West Bank (and used to live in parts of the Gaza Strip) are heavily armed and there have been numerous reports of their brutal attacks on their Palestinian neighbors."

Israelis and Palestinians Killed since 9/29/2000


----------



## Hollie (Dec 8, 2015)

Humanity said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> > 34 pages and still nothing to indicate that Israel targets Pal'istanian civilians.
> ...


That's actually pretty silly as Hamas has a "military wing". 

Pass that on to the folks at the internet tabloid "if Americans knew"

So, now 35 pages and still no indication that Israel targets civilians.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Dec 8, 2015)

Hollie said:


> Humanity said:
> 
> 
> > Hollie said:
> ...


The vast majority of people Israel kills are civilians. They don't target civilians. This just happens because they are stupid.

IDF=Israeli Doofus Force.


----------



## Roudy (Dec 8, 2015)

Humanity said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Humanity said:
> ...



It's not BS it's the truth. You guys constantly complain about "Palestinian civilian deaths" while the Palestinians themselves are constantly committing terrorist acts against Israeli civilians.  And you think Israel has a "legal obligation" to go easy on the Palestinian terrorist animals who are no different than ISIS terrorist animals, in their ideology and the atrocities they commit.  

 The Palestinians themselves are to blame for their own civilian casualties. Not the Israelis who are simply defending themselves against the savages who attack Isrselis, and then use their own people as human shields. 

Get it? Got it? Good.


----------



## Roudy (Dec 8, 2015)

P F Tinmore said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> > Humanity said:
> ...



That's your claim, it's actually not true at all.  Israel goes out of its way not to take innocent life, but there's only so much it can do when the Hamas animals are so depraved they don't care about their own people.


----------



## Roudy (Dec 8, 2015)

Humanity said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> > 34 pages and still nothing to indicate that Israel targets Pal'istanian civilians.
> ...



So what you're saying is when Hamas attacks women and kids in a pizzeria they aren't actually civilians, the random stabbings in Jerusalem aren't civilians, suicide bombings on school buses aren't civilians,  or when they point their rockets at Israeli population centers, they aren't civilians either.

Right.

And Israel has a "legal occupation" to go easy on these animals?  DREAM ON.


----------



## Kondor3 (Dec 8, 2015)

Rehmani said:


> ...Then why not, jews stuck around Telaviv in Israel. Why jews invade home land of Palestinian.


Off topic.

But it does not make any difference... the Jews own the place now... time for your people to leave.


----------



## Humanity (Dec 8, 2015)

Roudy said:


> Humanity said:
> 
> 
> > Roudy said:
> ...



International law maybe BS in your zionut world roodboy, wouldn't expect anything else, and certainly not from you.... But in the civilised world, it makes sense!

Israel does have a "legal obligation", as the occupier, as the oppressor, to protect the civilians that they occupy and oppress...

Just the way it is...

Don't like it? Tough!


----------



## Humanity (Dec 8, 2015)

Roudy said:


> Humanity said:
> 
> 
> > Hollie said:
> ...



Come back and reply when you learn to read!

Until then you can drown in your own zionut BS and live in the 'wonderland' that Israel is 'untouchable'...

That's what the Romans, Ottomans and on and on thought.... Look what happened to them!


----------



## montelatici (Dec 8, 2015)

Roudy said:


> Humanity said:
> 
> 
> > Hollie said:
> ...



The law is the law.  A belligerant occupier has a legal duty to protect the people whose land it occupies.  The world, in general, has decided that invasion and occupation are not good things, so it has fashioned laws to make belligerent occupation a burden on the occupier.  In the hope the occupier will get the hell out of the territory it is occupying.  

Furthermore, per various UN Resolutions, occupied or people under colonial rule have the right to use any means, including armed resistance to secure their freedom.  

This pamphlet published by ICRC, is very useful.

ICRC service


----------



## Billo_Really (Dec 8, 2015)

RoccoR said:


> Billo_Really,  et al,
> 
> Well, I have two things to say about this.
> 
> ...


I was wrong about only 28 people dying due to rocket fire. 

 It was only 25.





In addition to that, official Israeli numbers cannot be trusted.

_*numbers distributed by Israeli agencies are wildly inaccurate and often contradictory.* This is propounded by sources such as __Wikipedia__, which at the time of this writing repeats the __discredited and unaccounted numbers__ provided by Israeli agencies.

__also reported__, injuries resulting from rocket and mortar strikes are exaggerated. Israel’s casualty counts always incorporate numbers of people who have been treated for __“shock and anxiety,”__ as well as “light injuries” resulting from the rush to safety, such as __“falling down the stairs.”_​Israel deliberately fluffs up the numbers, just like they deliberately target civilians.


----------



## Roudy (Dec 8, 2015)

Humanity said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Humanity said:
> ...



So you think Israel has a legal obligation to go easy on Palestinian terrorist jihadi animals?

Link?


----------



## montelatici (Dec 8, 2015)

Roudy said:


> Humanity said:
> 
> 
> > Roudy said:
> ...



"The civilian population is in a tense and vulnerable position. The law states that it must be humanely treated in all circumstances and protected from any acts of violence, including by third parties. The occupying power may only put in place such measures of control and security as may be necessary as a result of the conflict. Collective penalties, measures of intimidation, terrorism and hostage-taking are prohibited. The legal rights of the inhabitants of occupied territory cannot be curtailed by any agreement or other arrangement between the occupying power and the authorities of the occupied territory. This is intended to prevent national authorities from being put under pressure to make concessions which might not be in the population’s best interests or weaken its legal rights. Similarly, the inhabitants of the occupied territory cannot renounce their rights under the Fourth Geneva Convention. This again is a safeguard. It prevents the occupying power from exploiting the vulnerability of the occupied territory by exerting undue pressure to undermine and weaken the protection which the law affords. 

Individual or mass forcible transfers and deportations of the civilian population from occupied territory are prohibited.

After effective occupation of territory, members of the territory’s armed forces who have not surrendered, organized resistance movements and genuine national liberation movements may resist the occupation. 

ICRC service


----------



## Billo_Really (Dec 8, 2015)

It is standard IDF policy to treat everyone the same in Gaza.  Everyone is a threat.  There are no innocents in Gaza. 

_*Israeli forces displayed ‘callous indifference’ in deadly attacks on family homes in Gaza*

Israeli forces have brazenly flouted the laws of war by carrying out a series of attacks on civilian homes,* displaying callous indifference to the carnage caused*,” said Philip Luther, Director of the Middle East and North Africa Programme at Amnesty International.

“The report exposes a pattern of attacks on civilian homes by *Israeli forces which have shown a shocking disregard for the lives of Palestinian civilians*, who were given no warning and had no chance to flee.”
_​It is important to note not only do you see Israel's callous indifference towards the victims in Gaza, but you also see that callous indifference in _*EVERY SINGLE POST*_ from the posters in this very forum who defend Israeli actions.

And this complete disregard for Palestinian lives is systemic, for the pro-Israeli crowd.


----------



## Billo_Really (Dec 8, 2015)

Roudy said:


> So you think Israel has a legal obligation to go easy on Palestinian terrorist jihadi animals?
> 
> Link?


Occupiers have a legal obligation to protect the occupied.


----------



## Roudy (Dec 8, 2015)

montelatici said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Humanity said:
> ...


Does not apply to Israel, plus nowhere does it give a resistance fighter that gets to slaughter civilians protected status. Hamas isn't even attacking Israeli military for the most part, which is what that irrelevant unenforceable Red Cross document is all about.  It's always terrorism and murder of unarmed and unsuspecting innocent civilians.  Palestinian terrorist animals are no different than ISIS terrorist animals, and deserve the same punishment.


----------



## Roudy (Dec 8, 2015)

Billo_Really said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > So you think Israel has a legal obligation to go easy on Palestinian terrorist jihadi animals?
> ...


Yeah?  And how is Israel occupying Gaza, lightbulb?


----------



## Billo_Really (Dec 8, 2015)

Roudy said:


> Yeah?  And how is Israel occupying Gaza, lightbulb?


Say something nice!


----------



## Roudy (Dec 8, 2015)

Billo_Really said:


> It is standard IDF policy to treat everyone the same in Gaza.  Everyone is a threat.  There are no innocents in Gaza.
> 
> _*Israeli forces displayed ‘callous indifference’ in deadly attacks on family homes in Gaza*
> 
> ...



The fact that Israel gave advance warning to residents of apartment buildings that Hamas was shooting rockets from, is a testament to Israel's compassion and decency. If Israel really wanted to target civilians you'd see death toll results like in Syria with Assad. 

Again, Palestinians do not have any respect for the life of Israeli civilians, nor do they care for their own by using them as human shields. I don't see what all the whining and moaning is about.


----------



## Roudy (Dec 8, 2015)

montelatici said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Humanity said:
> ...



And Israel is occupying Gaza how?   Ha ha ha.


----------



## montelatici (Dec 8, 2015)

Roudy said:


> Billo_Really said:
> 
> 
> > Roudy said:
> ...



The International Court of Justice determined that Gaza is occupied by Israel for a number of legal reasons:

Israel maintains full authority over the right to enter and exit from Gaza’s territorial waters and over the extent of these waters ; 

Israel exercises total control over Gaza airspace ; 

Israel controls the supply of essential products and services such as electricity, fuel, telecommunication frequencies, water…; 

Israel controls the population registry of Gaza inhabitants (thus allowing it to decide who qualifies for residency status) ; 

Israel collects the taxes owed to the Gaza authorities ; 

Israel imposes a terrestrial no-go (or “buffer”) zone over an area representing approximately 17 % of the Strip’s territory. 

Israel can and has re-occupied Gaza militarily on several occasions since removing settlements.


----------



## Hollie (Dec 8, 2015)

montelatici said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Billo_Really said:
> ...


Not at all relevant to the topic.


----------



## Roudy (Dec 8, 2015)

montelatici said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Billo_Really said:
> ...



what are you talking about?  Gaza is ruled by a terrorist organization, there is no Israeli occupation. The blockade  has been deemed legal by the UN.  Hamas terrorists are attacking Israeli civilians in unprovoked acts of savagery not unlike ISIS.  They have no respect for their own civilian life.  These animals don't deserve anything but the hammer of brave IDF.  Case closed.


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## Roudy (Dec 8, 2015)

Hollie said:


> montelatici said:
> 
> 
> > Roudy said:
> ...


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## montelatici (Dec 8, 2015)

Roudy said:


> montelatici said:
> 
> 
> > Roudy said:
> ...



The law is the law.


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## P F Tinmore (Dec 8, 2015)

montelatici said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Humanity said:
> ...


Great link, thanks.


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## Roudy (Dec 8, 2015)

montelatici said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > montelatici said:
> ...


That wasn't the "law", it was an irrelevant Red Cross guide which actually, condemned the Palestinians for not clearly signifying themselves as civilians while attacking Israeli civilians, under circumstances where Israel isn't even occupying Gaza.


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## Humanity (Dec 9, 2015)

Roudy said:


> Does not apply to Israel



So, Israel is the only country that is exempt from international law....

There's a surprise...

Well, they have been allowed to get away with it for decades, so, I guess you must be right roodboy! That's the zionut mentality and the fault of the international community for treating Israel with kid gloves. After all Israel is there for those poor, long suffering Jews isn't it!

Oh and whilst we are at it... Looking at Gaza in isolation to the rest of the Palestinians is just dumb!


----------



## Rehmani (Dec 9, 2015)

Kondor3 said:


> Rehmani said:
> 
> 
> > ...Then why not, jews stuck around Telaviv in Israel. Why jews invade home land of Palestinian.
> ...


Off topic.

Israel is killing civilian. Are you blind.


----------



## Rehmani (Dec 9, 2015)

Roudy said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Roudy said:
> ...


Then very simple, Israel should leave holy land which is belong to Palestinian. No complain.


----------



## Rehmani (Dec 9, 2015)

P F Tinmore said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Humanity said:
> ...


Terrorist Israelis calling themselves civilized, how cruel.


----------



## Rehmani (Dec 9, 2015)

Roudy said:


> Humanity said:
> 
> 
> > Roudy said:
> ...


How stupid. Can't you see most of these groups you mentioned, because of israeli terrorism.


----------



## Rehmani (Dec 9, 2015)

Humanity said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Humanity said:
> ...





Roudy said:


> Humanity said:
> 
> 
> > Roudy said:
> ...


Well, then all these groups formed because of Israelis aggression against innocent palestinian. Why don't you accept this fact.


----------



## Kondor3 (Dec 9, 2015)

Rehmani said:


> Kondor3 said:
> 
> 
> > Rehmani said:
> ...


The question at-hand is whether Israel *INTENTIONALLY TARGETS* civilians, not whether they're killing them.

When Hamas embeds its war-assets amongst its civilian population, hiding behind the skirts of its women and children like cowards, casualties are inevitable.


----------



## Rehmani (Dec 9, 2015)

Roudy said:


> Humanity said:
> 
> 
> > Roudy said:
> ...


But mostly groups formed, israel is responsible.


----------



## Rehmani (Dec 9, 2015)

Humanity said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Rehmani said:
> ...


They don't have truth. they are making falls story to change the historical facts.


----------



## Rehmani (Dec 9, 2015)

Roudy said:


> Rehmani said:
> 
> 
> > Hollie said:
> ...


Or may be they are jew too, using Islamic ID. As world know that jew population a lot higher then 13 million.


----------



## Rehmani (Dec 9, 2015)

RoccoR said:


> Rehmani,  et al,
> 
> Yes, like the idea of colonization, this idea of invasion is also bent to fit the profile of a victim; as if it were true.
> 
> ...


Roccor, you can not change the facts and figure and history of indigenous people of Palestine, just because of one century invasion by the invader and then change the face of invader give birth of Israel. Just a forced and illegal invasion.


----------



## Rehmani (Dec 9, 2015)

RoccoR said:


> Billo_Really, Hollie, et al,
> 
> Oh Billo_Really, --- our friend "Hollie" is on target with her two commentaries.
> 
> ...


Your many pages commentary, can't change the facts and figure of indigenous palestinian people rigths they have over holy land.


----------



## montelatici (Dec 9, 2015)

Kondor3 said:


> Rehmani said:
> 
> 
> > Kondor3 said:
> ...



Hamas does not hide "behind the skirts of it woamen and children".  It is Zionist propaganda.  The cowards are the Israelis, that intentional bomb residential apartment buildings housing women and children or schools, killing women and children by the thousands. Israel intentionally bombs civilians no amount of projection and propaganda mongering can change the facts as presented by the UN or various NGOs and human rights organizations.

"Well, you know, despite the Israeli ambassador’s claim that Israel deserves the Nobel Peace Prize for its extraordinary restraint and its extraordinary care to spare civilian lives, Human Rights Watch has seen from the ground, based on our investigations in Gaza, that that’s anything but the case. And no matter how many times the Israeli military spokesmen scream, "Human shields! Human shields!" most of the people being killed in Gaza are being killed because Israel is paying insufficient care to saving civilian lives. There’s been case after case in which Israel has used the wrong weaponry or has shot at people with many civilians around. And these, in our view, *are war crimes."

Kenneth Roth
*
Former federal prosecutor for the U.S. Attorney's Office for the Southern District of New York and Executive Director of HRW. Kenneth Roth is Jewish, by the way.


----------



## Roudy (Dec 9, 2015)

Humanity said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Does not apply to Israel
> ...



It's a friggin Red Cross manual. It isn't international law. And it doesn't apply because there is no "belligerent occupation" in Gaza, in fact there is no occupation at all.  There is a blockade which has been deemed legal by the UN.  If anything Hamas are the biggest violators of international law.  

The terror and loss of civilian life on both sides is less in the West Bank because it isn't ruled by an Islamic terrorist organization committed to the destruction of Israel as Gaza is.


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## Roudy (Dec 9, 2015)

montelatici said:


> Kondor3 said:
> 
> 
> > Rehmani said:
> ...



Hamas usage of human shields is a well established and proven fact.  Their cowardice knows no bounds.


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## Humanity (Dec 9, 2015)

Roudy said:


> Humanity said:
> 
> 
> > Roudy said:
> ...



The United Nations Security Council, the United Nations General Assembly, some countries and human rights organisations disagree with you roodboy...

Israel retains control of Gaza's airspace and coastline that, according to UNSC and UNGC, is "occupation"...


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## RoccoR (Dec 9, 2015)

montelatici,  et al,

Well, as for Ken Roth, he really hasn't worked as a real attorney since the early '90s _(two decades ago)_.  But more importantly, the found of Human Rights Watch (HRW) had a comment.

"In reaction to Richard Goldstone's recantation of the United Nations Fact Finding Mission on the Gaza Conflict report, _*HRW Founder Robert Bernstein*_ said to the Jerusalem Post in April 2011, referring to Roth, that it "is time for him to follow Judge Goldstone’s example and issue his own mea culpa."  _(By JORDANA HORN, JPOST CORRESPONDENT \04/08/2011)_ ​


montelatici said:


> Former federal prosecutor for the U.S. Attorney's Office for the Southern District of New York and Executive Director of HRW. Kenneth Roth is Jewish, by the way.


*(COMMENT)*

As for Human Rights Watch (HRW), I generally read what they public, although not always in a timely matter.  But I would like to bring you attention to a couple of articles to you.

JUNE 29, 2015
*Human Rights Watch Statement to the UN Human Rights Council*
Gaza Commission of Inquiry Report

The report rightly condemns Israel, Hamas and other Palestinian armed groups for serious violations of the laws of war, some of which may amount to war crimes. We note the devastating impact of the fighting in Gaza, where 1,462 Palestinian civilians lost their lives, one-third of them children. In Israel, six civilians were killed. The report found that the attacks causing many of these civilian deaths were unlawful.​
The general theme of HRW has not changed much six year.  And the HRW still does not believe that the Islamic Resistance Movement is responsible in any way for the deaths.  HRW ignore the Rules 23 and 24 of the Customary and International Humanitarian Law that requires that whenever possible, the Islamic Resistance should not conduct hostile operations from densely populated areas (Human Shielding) and move/evacuate civilians from areas used by the Islamic Resistance to fire on Israel.


AUGUST 6, 2009
*Gaza/Israel: Hamas Rocket Attacks on Civilians Unlawful*
Launches from Populated Areas Endanger Israelis and Palestinians

(Jerusalem) - Hamas should repudiate unlawful rocket attacks against Israeli population centers and hold those responsible for them to account, Human Rights Watch said in a new report released today. Hamas and other Palestinian armed groups have over several years launched thousands of rockets at Israeli cities and towns, including hundreds during Israel's three-week military offensive in Gaza in December 2008 and January 2009.






AUGUST 6, 2009
*Rockets from Gaza*
Harm to Civilians from Palestinian Armed Groups’ Rocket Attacks

Since 2001, Hamas and other Palestinian armed groups in Gaza have fired thousands of rockets deliberately or indiscriminately at civilian areas in Israel.  Such attacks virtually stopped during a ceasefire that began in June 2008 but escalated in November 2008 after an Israeli military incursion into Gaza.
​Most Respectfully,
R


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## montelatici (Dec 9, 2015)

Roudy said:


> Humanity said:
> 
> 
> > Roudy said:
> ...



The ICRC Manual reiterates International Law.  No one denies that it represents the law as written.  

But if you wish to read the Geneva Conventions directly, you can : 

ICRC service

By the way, have you ever wondered why they are called the Geneva Conventions and why the ICRC is headquartered in Geneva. LOL


Gaza is a belligerent occupation as per International Law.  The decision was based upon the following facts regarding Gaza:

"The manifestations of Israel’s continuing effective control include: 

(a) substantial control of Gaza’s six land crossings; 

(b) control through military incursions, rocket attacks and sonic booms, and the declaration of areas inside the Strip as “no-go” zones where anyone who enters can be shot; 

(c) complete control of Gaza’s airspace and territorial waters; 

(d) control of the Palestinian Population Registry, which has the power and authority to define who is a “Palestinian” and who is a resident of Gaza.

Added to these the court added that, Israel’s continuing capacity to invade Gaza, arrest residents, and transport them into Israel for the prosecution of Gazans in Israeli civil courts, and their imprisonment inside Israel, makes it a de facto belligerent occupation.  

Israel also collects Gaza Customs and VAT taxes. By the way.

Under the Geneva Convention on Terrorism, National Liberation Movements are specifically excluded from the definition of terrorism, and armed resistance activities in Palestine are called out, among others as  National Liberation activities.

*THE GENEVA DECLARATION ON TERRORISM*​*UN General Assembly Doc. A/42/307, 29 May 1987, Annex*​Geneva, 21 March 1987​

"*II. NATIONAL LIBERATION MOVEMENTS*

As repeatedly recognized by the United Nations General Assembly, peoples who are fighting against colonial domination and alien occupation and against racist regimes in the exercise of their right of self-determination have the right to use force to accomplish their objectives within the framework of international humanitarian law. Such lawful uses of force must not be confused with acts of international terrorism. *Thus, it would be legally impermissible to treat members of national liberation movements i*n the Caribbean Basin, Central America, Namibia, Northern Ireland, the Pacific Islands, *Palestine*, and South Africa, among others, *as if they were common criminals*. Rather, national liberation fighters should be treated as combatants subject to the laws and customs of warfare and to the international laws of humanitarian armed conflict as evidenced, for example, by the 1907 Hague Regulations, the Four Geneva Conventions of 1949, and their Additional Protocol I of 1977. Hence, national liberation fighters would be held to the same standards of belligerent conduct that are applicable to soldiers
fighting in an international armed conflict. Thus, when a liberation fighter is captured by a belligerent state, he should not be tried as a criminal, but would be treated as a prisoner of war. He could be interned for the duration of the conflict, or released upon condition of a pledge to refrain from further participation in hostilities, or traded in a prisoner of war exchange. In the event such a national liberation fighter is found in a neutral state, he should not be subjected to extradition to the belligerent state."

THE GENEVA DECLARATION ON TERRORISM


----------



## montelatici (Dec 9, 2015)

RoccoR said:


> montelatici,  et al,
> 
> Well, as for Ken Roth, he really hasn't worked as a real attorney since the early '90s _(two decades ago)_.  But more importantly, the found of Human Rights Watch (HRW) had a comment.
> 
> ...



Jews that do the right thing are often forced to recant after speaking the truth.  Ariel Toaff, another noted Jewish professor was forced to recant a complete historical work.  It is somewhat like the Inquisition for Jews that dare speak the truth.

Spouting additional propaganda just further cheapens your contributions, if that is possible.  You are just trying (and failing) to defend the indefensible.


----------



## Roudy (Dec 9, 2015)

montelatici said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Humanity said:
> ...



And where does it say Palestinians coward mass murderers in Gaza, who are not under any military occupation, can wear civilian attire, target Israeli civilians, then hide among their own civilians, and be "protected"?  It doesn't.


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## Roudy (Dec 9, 2015)

montelatici said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > montelatici,  et al,
> ...



On the other hand, One would say that supporting a "Palestinian movement" that is dedicated to the genocide and mass murder of the Jewish people and total destruction of their state from its inception, and labeling palestinian terrorist animals who routinely target civilians as "protected", would be defending the indefensible (and failing).


----------



## Billo_Really (Dec 9, 2015)

Roudy said:


> It's a friggin Red Cross manual. It isn't international law. And it doesn't apply because there is no "belligerent occupation" in Gaza, in fact there is no occupation at all.  There is a blockade which has been deemed legal by the UN.  If anything Hamas are the biggest violators of international law.
> 
> The terror and loss of civilian life on both sides is less in the West Bank because it isn't ruled by an Islamic terrorist organization committed to the destruction of Israel as Gaza is.


Hey dumbass, the Red Cross is the caretaker of the IHL database.





And it ain't no fuckin' manual!





Here's one of the rules (laws) applicable to this very thread, which Israel violates as a matter of policy...

*Rule 2. Violence Aimed at Spreading Terror among the Civilian Population
Acts or threats of violence the primary purpose of which is to spread terror among the civilian population are prohibited.*

_Examples of acts of violence cited in practice as being prohibited under this rule include *offensive support or strike operations aimed at spreading terror among the civilian population*,  indiscriminate and widespread shelling, and the regular bombardment of cities, but also assault, rape, abuse and torture of women and children, and mass killing.

...*concerned deliberate and indiscriminate firing on civilian targets,  unlawful firing on civilian gatherings*,  and a protracted campaign of shelling and sniping upon civilian areas.  These examples show that many acts violating the prohibition of acts or threats of violence aimed at terrorizing the civilian population are also covered by specific prohibitions.
_​So it doesn't matter how many leaflets (or taps on the roof) you savage animals drop, IT IS FUCKING ILLEGAL!


----------



## Humanity (Dec 9, 2015)

Roudy said:


> not under any military occupation



At best, "belligerent occupation"... Though military occupation can be considered... Israel constantly running gun boats in Gazan waters....



Roudy said:


> wear civilian attire



Palestine doesn't have a military... There is no uniform to wear!

So, asking the question, "Israel does not target civilians?".... The answer is YES Israel DOES target civilians!


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## montelatici (Dec 9, 2015)

Roudy said:


> montelatici said:
> 
> 
> > Roudy said:
> ...



Of course Gaza is under belligerent occupation (which means military).  It is settled international law accepted by all nations, including the United States.

Please advise which "mass murder" was committed by the Palestinian resistance in Gaza. 

As the ICJ judge said, the term military attire as indicated in the Geneva Conventions is not conditioned by a style magazine.

The resistance in Gaza targets the Israeli military.  In fact, 92.5% of the Israeli casualties during the last Gaza war were military and 7.5% were Israeli civilians.  75% of Palestinian casualties were civilian and 25% were military.

The resistance in Gaza does not hide among their own civilians.


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## Humanity (Dec 9, 2015)

Roudy said:


> montelatici said:
> 
> 
> > RoccoR said:
> ...



The vile hatred and racism is strong in this one OB1


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## Roudy (Dec 9, 2015)

montelatici said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > montelatici said:
> ...


Nope not a single Isrseli soldier in Gaza now.  There is a blockade which has been deemed legal. No occupation and certainly not belligerent. The belligerent are the ones led by a terrorist group, not under occupation, with genocidal intentions and are constantly targeting Israeli civilians while hiding behind their own. 

Hamas = ISIS of Gaza.


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## Roudy (Dec 9, 2015)

Humanity said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > montelatici said:
> ...



Just the facts, Abdul.


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## Roudy (Dec 9, 2015)

Humanity said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > not under any military occupation
> ...



Oh, they can't wear clothing to distinguish themselves as military?  Bullshit!  They're coward mass murderers who hide behind their own women and children.  Always were, always will be.


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## Humanity (Dec 9, 2015)

Roudy said:


> Humanity said:
> 
> 
> > Roudy said:
> ...



You wouldn't know a fact Hymie if it came along and kicked you in the butt!

Though, it is clearly fact that you are a hateful racist! That is an undeniable fact!


----------



## Challenger (Dec 9, 2015)

RoccoR said:


> Billo_Really,  et al,
> 
> Well, I have two things to say about this.
> 
> ...










			
				RoccoR said:
			
		

> At least 1,198 Israelis have been killed by Palestinian since September 29, 2000. (15 years). Just because the effective defense of the Israelis, combined with the ineffective rocket and missile program of the Palestinians, results in a disproportionate casualty rate, does not mean that is was harmless and should be ignored.




That works out at an average of 80 Israelis killed by Palestinian acts of resistance per year, since September 29, 2000. Over the same period, just for comparative, illustrative purposes, an average of 266 Israelis have been killed by other Israelis on Israel’s roads and an average of 164.96 Israelis have been murdered by other Israelis not in any way related to the conflict.

Looked at objectively, the greatest threat and danger to Israelis are other Israelis; an Israeli is 5 times more likely to be killed by an Israeli than by a Palestinian. This is an indication of the general level of threat posed by Palestinian acts of resistance.

By all means don’t ignore explosive projectiles thrown in your general direction, but let’s keep a sense of proportion here; do those deaths really merit the wholesale slaughter of 9,151 Palestinians by any society that considers itself “civilised”?



			
				RoccoR said:
			
		

> The deadly threat to be taken seriously is when the Palestinian failed or aborted attempt to Israeli citizens. Just like other crimes, the attempt consists of both an action and an intention. In attempt to kill Israelis, a Palestinian must take a direct step towards the killing _(Launching)_ and must have the specific intent to kill Israeli _(Targeted Israel)_.



Your hyperbole doesn’t quite cut it. Palestinian resistance fighters launch rockets and mortars in any significant numbers usually only when they’ve been provoked by Zionist actions; usually by aircraft bombings or artillery fire from Israel and especially by “targeted killings”; 238 such murders having occurred in our time period. Sadly, these targeted killings simultaneously managed to kill 408 innocent bystanders, but hey, let’s not worry about the morality, they’re only Palestinians/ ”collateral damage” and Zionist Israel is a Western-style “civilised society”, after all.

It seems, according to your source, RoccoR, when the Palestinian Resistance attempted a targeted killing, they succeeded with no “collateral damage”, seems they’re better at it than the IDF.



			
				RoccoR said:
			
		

> The depraved indifference of the Palestinians focuses on the risk to Israeli life created by the Palestinian’s conduct... It is the wanton character of the Palestinian, so deficient in a moral sense of concern, so lacking in regard for the life or lives of others, that it constitutes an act that is imminently dangerous and presented a very high risk of death AND an unreasonable threat to the safety and security of the citizens of Israel and the Sovereignty of the State. If you want to know who the Palestinians are, well here it is in a demonstrated form.



More hyperbole to disguise the fact there’s nothing of substance written here, just an unsubstantiated, opinionated, rant. Disappointing, you used to be better than this.


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## Roudy (Dec 9, 2015)

Humanity said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Humanity said:
> ...


Said the antisemite who thinks Palestinian terrorist animals who target Israeli civilians have a "protected" status.


----------



## Challenger (Dec 9, 2015)

Roudy said:


> Hamas usage of human shields is a well established and proven fact.



No it isn't. the only well established and proven fact is that the IDF are the ones that routinely and systematically use human shields. Israeli High Court: Israeli Soldiers Used Palestinians as Human Shields 1,200 Times Washington's Blog


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## Roudy (Dec 9, 2015)

Challenger said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Hamas usage of human shields is a well established and proven fact.
> ...


Well if "Washington's Bullshit Blog" said it, then by golly it must be true!

and now, time for some truth:

http://nypost.com/2015/05/02/un-report-outlines-how-hamas-used-kids-as-human-shields/

Hamas DID use schools and hospitals in Gaza Strip as 'human shields'

http://nypost.com/2014/08/05/hamas-manual-details-civilian-death-plan-israel/


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## montelatici (Dec 9, 2015)

You are hilarious.

The UN reports are about the empty schools (closed for the summer) used to store arms.  The usual propaganda by the Zionist owned American press. There were no kids to be used as human shields. The rest is Zionist propaganda.

Give it up.


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## Hollie (Dec 9, 2015)

montelatici said:


> You are hilarious.
> 
> The UN reports are about the empty schools (closed for the summer) used to store arms.  The usual propaganda by the Zionist owned American press. There were no kids to be used as human shields. The rest is Zionist propaganda.
> 
> Give it up.


You're a hoot.


Explosive: UN admits Palestinians fired rockets from UNRWA schools «  View from Geneva

_*Hamas and/or Islamic Jihad stored rockets in schools that were in active use by children.*_ During the war, former PLO lawyer Diana Buttu famously said on Al Jazeera that “the rockets that were found in the schools in UNRWA were schools that are not being used by anybody—school is out, I’ll have you know.” However, in the UNRWA Gaza Beach Elementary Co-educational “B” School, on 16 July 2014, the UN Board of Inquiry notes that the school gate was unlocked during the period leading up to the incident “in order to allow children access to the schoolyard.” School was out, but UNRWA was inviting the children back in to play.


Yet more confirmation that your cowardly Islamic terrorist heroes hide behind civilians.


----------



## RoccoR (Dec 9, 2015)

montelatici, et al,

Sya and think what you will.



montelatici said:


> Jews that do the right thing are often forced to recant after speaking the truth.  Ariel Toaff, another noted Jewish professor was forced to recant a complete historical work.  It is somewhat like the Inquisition for Jews that dare speak the truth.
> 
> Spouting additional propaganda just further cheapens your contributions, if that is possible.  You are just trying (and failing) to defend the indefensible.


(COMMENT)

It is not proaganda when the founder of the HRW says something different.

Both are perspectives.  People get to choose.

Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## montelatici (Dec 9, 2015)

RoccoR said:


> montelatici, et al,
> 
> Sya and think what you will.
> 
> ...



No, one is a neutral, despite being a member of the Jewish religion and stated the truth, while the other was also a Jew who was put under tremendous pressure to recant what he knows was the truth.  Sort of like Galileo.  He recanted, but the laws of physics did not change.


----------



## RoccoR (Dec 9, 2015)

montelatici,  et al,

Don't mistake this for international law; it is not.  Don't mistake this for being related to the Geneva Convention, it is not.  I'm not even sure it is a real UN Document.

It is not listed under the UN Index for Declarations and Conventions Contained in GA Resolutions.
It is not listed under the UN Index for UN Actions to Counter Terrorism. (Declarations)
It is not listed under the UN Index for UN Actions to Counter Terrorism.  (Resolutions)
It is not mentioned under the Security Council Actions to Counter Terrorism.  (Security Council Actions)
It is not mentioned under the UN Index for UN Actions to Counter Terrorism.  (International Legal Instruments)

When I run a general search for "Geneva Declaration on Terrorism" I get:

Declarations - United Nations Action to Counter Terrorism
2003 *Declaration* *on* the issue of combating *terrorism* (2003) S/RES/1377 (2001) 12 January 2001 (...) *Declaration* *on* the issue of combating *terrorism*(2001) A/RES/51/210 (1997) 16 January 1997 *Declaration* to (...) Supplement the 1994 *Declaration* *on* Measures to Eliminate International *Terrorism*A/RES/49/60 (1995) 17
Language: ENG
Score: 7.18 - Declarations - United Nations Action to Counter Terrorism​


montelatici said:


> *THE GENEVA DECLARATION ON TERRORISM*
> *UN General Assembly Doc. A/42/307, 29 May 1987, Annex*
> Geneva, 21 March 1987​
> 
> ...


*(COMMENT)*

If, you apply the Hague Regulation, the Fourth Geneva Convention and the Additional Protocols to this ---- then nothing I've said is affected by anything in the "questionable document"  in any way, shape or form.  In fact, it would suggest that the Palestinian is even more in violation.

A liberation fighter must meet all the criteria that a normal conventional soldier must meet.  And, they are still subject to Article 68 of the Fourth Geneva Convention.  But I don't believe this Declaration on Terrorism ever went into force.

In any event, this does not change the condition or present a _prima facie_ case that Israel has a policy to target civilians.

Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## Roudy (Dec 9, 2015)

montelatici said:


> You are hilarious.
> 
> The UN reports are about the empty schools (closed for the summer) used to store arms.  The usual propaganda by the Zionist owned American press. There were no kids to be used as human shields. The rest is Zionist propaganda.
> 
> Give it up.


I didn't know the Daily Mail newspaper in the United Kingdom was "Zionist propaganda"? 

Which part of this article is Zionist propaganda?

dailymail.co.uk
*Hamas DID use schools and hospitals in Gaza Strip as 'human shields'*
By Matthew Blake for MailOnline and Associated Press


Hamas appeared to admit using human shields to fire rockets into Israel for the first time today, but refused to accept responsibility for the slaughter of hundreds of innocent Palestinians killed in retaliatory airstrikes.

In a veiled confession that comes two weeks after the end of the Gaza war, a senior Hamas official said the group's fighters had no choice but to use residential areas from which to launch missiles into their neighbour's territory.

But while Ghazi Hamad claimed they took safeguards to keep people away from the violence, he admitted 'mistakes were made', blaming Israel's heavy-handed response for the deaths of civilians.

Evidence: This photo, shows the Gaza City neighborhood of Sheikh Radwan where it says Hamas used four rocket launch sites sitting next to a cluster of schools and nearby residences.

Increasingly, the discussion is not about whether the Hamas rockets were fired from civilian areas, but exactly how close they were to the actual buildings.

'The Israelis kept saying rockets were fired from schools or hospitals when in fact they were fired 200 or 300 meters (yards) away. Still, there were some mistakes made and they were quickly dealt with,' Hamad told The Associated Press, offering the first acknowledgment by a Hamas official that, in some cases, militants fired rockets from or near residential areas or civilian facilities.

The questions lie at the heart of a brewing international legal confrontation: Did Hamas deliberately and systematically fire rockets at Israel from homes, hospitals and schools in the hope that Israel would be deterred from retaliating, as Israel claims? 

Ahead of a U.N. investigation, the Israeli military has released reams of evidence, including satellite photos and aerial footage, to support its claims that it acted responsibly and attempted to minimize Palestinian casualties. It asserts that Hamas made no effort to disguise its attempt to maximize Israeli civilian casualties.

Throughout the war, the Israeli air force compiled dozens of video clips showing alleged wrongdoing by Hamas, an Islamic militant group sworn to Israel's destruction.

These videos, many of them posted on YouTube, appear to show rockets flying out of residential neighborhoods, cemeteries, schoolyards and mosque courtyards. There are also images of weapons caches purportedly uncovered inside mosques, and tunnels allegedly used by militants to scurry between homes, mosques and buildings.

'Hamas' excuses are outrageous, misleading and contrary to the evidence supplied by the IDF (Israeli Defense Forces) and the reality documented by international journalists on the ground in Gaza,' said Lt. Col. Peter Lerner, an Israeli military spokesman.

Confession: In a veiled confession that comes two weeks after the end of the Gaza war, a senior Hamas official today said the group's fighters had no choice but to use residential areas from which to launch missiles into their neighbour's territory 

But a black-and-white satellite image released by the Israeli military illustrates the difficulties in proving the point. The army says the image, taken of the Gaza City neighborhood of Sheikh Radwan, shows four rocket launch sites sitting next to a cluster of schools and a nearby residential neighborhood.

Such images, it says, are evidence that Hamas used built-up areas for cover - and carelessly exposed civilians to danger in Israeli retaliatory strikes. However, the image itself is grainy and shows no clear signs of rocket activity, though rocket launchers are often hidden underground. The army refused to say how it had made its conclusions.

A visit to the area this week found three separate military sites - possibly training grounds - slightly larger than football fields located close to the state schools. 

The sites are mostly concealed from street view by barriers made of corrugated iron, but one bore the sign of Hamas' military wing, al-Qassam Brigades, while another bore the sign of the Islamic Jihad, a militant group allied with Hamas. The bases were deserted. Visible from the outside were human cutout figures and what appeared to be exercise hurdles.

There were no overt signs of rocket launchers or craters in the ground outside, though dirt appeared to have been disturbed either by some sort of blast or the work of heavy military-type trucks. There were pieces of mangled concrete scattered on the ground. The school buildings appeared untouched.

Hamas tightly restricts access to such facilities, and it was impossible for photographers to enter the sites. Israel confirmed the area was targeted in airstrikes.

Another location that identified as a rocket-launching site is in northern Gaza around the newly built Indonesian hospital. Immediately to the north of the two-story hospital and across the road to the west are two Hamas military facilities. Both stand in close proximity to residential homes. The hospital stands intact, while nothing is visible from inside the bases.

During 50 days of fighting, many observers witnessed rocket launches from what appeared to be urban areas. One piece of video footage distributed by the AP, for instance, captured a launch in downtown Gaza City that took place in a lot next to a mosque and an office of the Hamas prime minister. Both buildings were badly damaged in subsequent Israeli airstrikes.

*There was other evidence of Hamas having used civilian facilities: Early in the conflict, the U.N. agency that cares for Palestinian refugees announced that it discovered weapons stored in its schools as they stood empty during the summer.*

*'I don't think there's any doubt urban areas were used to launch rockets from in the Gaza Strip,' said Bill Van Esveld, a senior researcher at Human Rights Watch.* 

*'Yes, Hamas and others may have used civilians as human shields, but was that consistent and widespread?' said Sami Abdel-Shafi, a Palestinian-American who represents the Carter Center in Gaza.* 'The question is whether Israel's response was proportionate.'

The war erupted on July 8 when Israel launched a massive aerial bombardment of Gaza in response to weeks of heavy rocket fire by Hamas and other Gaza-based militant groups - part of an escalation that began with the killing by a Hamas cell of three Israeli teens in the West Bank.

The Israeli army says Hamas fired almost 4,000 rockets at Israel, including 600 from close to schools, mosques and other civilian facilities, and scores of mortar shells. Israel carried out some 5,000 airstrikes, in addition to using powerful artillery and gunship fire.

Israel disputes the makeup of the Palestinian casualty figures, saying that nearly half the dead were militants.

Hamas also has been sharply criticized for launching rockets aimed at Israeli cities and towns. Israel says its own civilian death toll would have been much higher had it not been for its rocket defenses.


----------



## Roudy (Dec 9, 2015)

RoccoR said:


> montelatici,  et al,
> 
> Don't mistake this for international law; it is not.  Don't mistake this for being related to the Geneva Convention, it is not.  I'm not even sure it is a real UN Document.
> 
> ...


OMG OMG OMG.  Are we witnessing yet another attempt at propagating a total lie and falsehood in favor of Palestinian terrorists?!  What a friggin surprise!


----------



## Roudy (Dec 9, 2015)

montelatici said:


> You are hilarious....
> Give it up.



Yeah, hilarious!

Indian TV Reporter Films Hamas Assembling, Launching Missiles From Residential Area Outside Hotel Minutes Before Cease-Fire (VIDEO)


----------



## Roudy (Dec 9, 2015)

Hilarious how the depraved Palestinian animals complain about civilian casualties when they shoot rockets at Israel from behind HOSPITALS! Hilarious!

Finnish TV Reporter at Gaza’s Al Shifa Hospital: ‘It’s True That Rockets Are Launched Here From the Gazan Side Into Israel’ (VIDEO)


----------



## montelatici (Dec 9, 2015)

The Geneva Convention documents are available on the UN website and says the same thing.

Article 1(4) of the First Additional Protocol to the Geneva Conventions of 1949 POW status now extends to members of an organized group fighting “against colonial domination and alien occupation and against racist regimes in the exercise of their right of self-determination”

There is a policy of targeting civilians.
*
Dahiyah Doctrine*


----------



## Challenger (Dec 9, 2015)

Roudy said:


> Well if "Washington's Bullshit Blog" said it, then by golly it must be true!
> 
> and now, time for some truth:



The word "truth" is not apposite when used in conjunction with Rupert Murdoch owned newspapers, more accurately right-wing propaganda. 

Blog it may be, but it quotes material from "Yedioth Ahronoth", Israel’s most-read newspaper, amongst other sources.


----------



## montelatici (Dec 9, 2015)

Roudy said:


> montelatici said:
> 
> 
> > You are hilarious.
> ...



Instead of the propaganda let's read what the UN actually said.

"In his letter Ban also hit out at Palestinian militant groups for putting some UN schools in Gaza at risk *by hiding weapons in three locations that were not being used as shelters."
*
Israel responsible for Gaza strikes on UN schools and shelters, inquiry finds

No where does the UN say that the resistance used human shields.  It's just your propaganda as usual.


----------



## Roudy (Dec 9, 2015)

Challenger said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Well if "Washington's Bullshit Blog" said it, then by golly it must be true!
> ...



Blogs don't count.  Next?!


----------



## Challenger (Dec 9, 2015)

Roudy said:


> I didn't know the Daily Mail newspaper in the United Kingdom was "Zionist propaganda"?



It's a right-wing tabloid that supports Zionist Israel and the Tory party, see...you learn something new every day. Happy to help.


----------



## Roudy (Dec 9, 2015)

montelatici said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > montelatici said:
> ...



So a school is an acceptable place to store rockets?  Good to know.
But here the animals are shooting from behind hospitals and hotels:

Finnish TV Reporter at Gaza’s Al Shifa Hospital: ‘It’s True That Rockets Are Launched Here From the Gazan Side Into Israel’ (VIDEO)

Indian TV Reporter Films Hamas Assembling, Launching Missiles From Residential Area Outside Hotel Minutes Before Cease-Fire (VIDEO)


----------



## Roudy (Dec 9, 2015)

Challenger said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > I didn't know the Daily Mail newspaper in the United Kingdom was "Zionist propaganda"?
> ...


Right wing tabloid?  Hamas' violations and crimes were well documented left, right, and center!


----------



## montelatici (Dec 9, 2015)

Telawood Productions.

Some tidbits from the complete report linked below that demonstrate the amount and level of propaganda believed by the Zionist bunch here:

".....the (UN) commission observes that during the period under examination, the tunnels were only used to conduct attacks directed at IDF positions in Israel in the vicinity of the Green Line, which are legitimate military targets. A resident of a kibbutz located 1.7 km from Gaza told the commission, “We hear that tunnels are mostly to harm soldiers but that doesn’t stop families from being afraid”."

111.  The IDF carried out more than 6 000 airstrikes in Gaza during the 2014 Operation[1], from the first day throughout the Operation. These included targeted attacks on residential and other buildings. As a result, according to the Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs (OCHA), during the 2014 hostilities, 142 Palestinian families had three or more members killed in the same incident owing to the *destruction of residential buildings*, "

In many of the cases examined by the commission, as well as in incidents reported by local and international organizations, *there is little or no information as to how residential buildings, which are prima facie civilian objects immune from attack, came to be regarded as legitimate military objectives. *

The commission notes that this obligation is not absolute and that even if there are areas that are not residential, *Gaza’s small size and its population density makes it particularly difficult for armed groups always to comply with these requirements.* The ICRC Commentary on Additional Protocol I notes that several delegations of the Diplomatic Conference commented that for densely populated countries, *the requirement to avoid locating military objectives within densely populated areas would be difficult to apply.*





  [1]  Israel, Ministry of Foreign Affairs,  _IDF Conduct of Operations during the 2014 Gaza Conflict_, p. 38 available at: http://mfa.gov.il/ProtectiveEdge/Documents/IDFConduct.pdf, accessed on 30 May 2015.

  [2]  OCHA, Fragmented Lives, Humanitarian Overview 2014, March 2015, p. 6.






 Here is the UN report, no indication that your propaganda videos are consistent with the facts. The first part confirms that Gaza is legally occupied by Israel under international law.  

Report of the Independent Commission of Inquiry on the 2014 Gaza Conflict

"26. The Occupied Palestinian Territory is comprised of the West Bank, including East-Jerusalem and the Gaza strip. The Government of Israel adopts the position that since it withdrew its troops and settlers from Gaza in 2005 during the “disengagement”, it no longer has effective control over what happens in Gaza and thus can no longer be considered as an occupying power under international law.[1] The commission agrees that the exercise of ‘effective control’ test is the correct standard to use in determining whether a State is the occupying power over a given territory, but notes that the continuous presence of soldiers on the ground is only one criterion to be used in determining effective control.

27. International law does not require the continuous presence of troops of the occupying forces in all areas of a territory, in order for it to be considered as being occupied. In the _Naletelic _case, the ICTY held that the law of occupation also applies in areas where a state possesses the “capacity to send troops within a reasonable time to make its power felt.”[2] The size of Gaza and the fact that it is almost completely surrounded by Israel facilitates the ability for Israel to make its presence felt.[3] This principle was confirmed by the United States Military Tribunal at Nuremberg which stated:

_It is clear that the German Armed Forces were able to maintain control of Greece and Yugoslavia until they evacuated them in the fall of 1944. While it is true that the partisans were able to control sections of these countries at various times, it is established that the Germans could at any time they desired assume physical control of any part of the country. The control of the resistance forces was temporary only and not such as would deprive the German Armed Forces of its status of an occupant._[4]

28. This analysis also applies to the Occupied Palestinian Territory which is considered a single territorial unit by the international community,[5] and by Israel in the Interim Agreement on the West Bank and Gaza, which recognized the West Bank and Gaza as a single territorial unit.[6]

29. In addition to its capacity to send troops to make its presence felt, Israel continues to exercise effective control of the Gaza Strip through other means. According to the Interim agreement on the West Bank and the Gaza Strip, Israel maintains the control of Gaza’s airspace and maritime areas, and any activity in these areas is subject to the approval of Israel. The facts since the 2005 disengagement, among them the continuous patrolling of the territorial sea adjacent to Gaza by the Israeli Navy and constant surveillance flights of IDF aircraft, in particular remotely piloted aircraft, demonstrate the continued exclusive control by Israel of Gaza’s airspace and maritime areas which -- with the exception of limited fishing activities -- Palestinians are not allowed to use. Since 2000, the IDF has also continuously enforced a no-go zone of varying width inside Gaza along the Green Line fence. Even in periods during which no active hostilities are occurring, the IDF regularly conducts operations in that zone,[7] such as land levelling. Israel regulates the local monetary market, which is based on the Israeli currency and has controls on the custom duties.[8] Under the Gaza Reconstruction Mechanism, Israel continues to exert a high degree of control over the construction industry in Gaza. Drawings of large scale public and private sector projects, as well as the planned quantities of construction material required, must be approved by the Government of Israel.[9] Israel also controls the Palestinian population registry, which is common to both the West Bank and Gaza, and Palestinian ID-cards can only be issued or modified with Israeli approval.[10] Israel also regulates all crossings allowing access to and from Gaza. While it is true that the Rafah crossing is governed by Egypt, Israel still exercises a large degree of control, as only Palestinians holding passports are allowed to cross, and passports can only be issued to people featuring on the Israeli generated population registry.

30. The commission concludes that Israel has maintained effective control of the Gaza Strip within the meaning of Article 42 of the 1907 Hague Regulations. The assessment that Gaza continues to be occupied by Israel is shared by the international community as articulated by the General Assembly and has been reaffirmed by the International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC) and the Prosecutor of the International Criminal Court (ICC).[11]

31. In view of the 2005 disengagement, Israel’s obligations under occupation law are consistent with the level of control it exercises,[12]and the rules of treaty and customary law of occupation by which it is bound remain those that are relevant to the functions that Israel continues to exercise as an occupying power.[13]

32. The commission takes note that the State of Palestine, on 2 April 2014, acceded to the four Geneva Conventions of 12 August 1949 and the Additional Protocols I and II on the protection of victims of international armed conflicts and non-international armed conflicts and the Fourth Hague Convention on the War on Land and its annexed Regulations of 1907. In early January 2015 the State of Palestine acceded to Additional Protocol III to the 1949 Geneva Conventions; to the Convention prohibiting Certain Conventional Weapons of 1980 and its Protocols I and III, and to the Convention on Cluster Munitions of 2008.

33. Israel and the Palestinian armed groups that are parties to the conflict are bound alike by the relevant rules of customary international law. These rules are relevant both to the treatment of civilians and persons _hors de combat _as well as to the conduct of hostilities. The commission recognizes the complexity of determining customary rules of international law and therefore referred to analyses of custom by international tribunals as well as to the Study on Customary International Humanitarian Law,[14] the contents of which it considers as indicative of the existence of customary norms.[15]......."

Report of the Independent Commission of Inquiry on the 2014 Gaza Conflict


----------



## Billo_Really (Dec 9, 2015)

Challenger said:


> Palestinian resistance fighters launch rockets and mortars in any significant numbers usually only when they’ve been provoked by Zionist actions...


Bing............_a fucking_...............Go!


----------



## Roudy (Dec 9, 2015)

Avoiding the obvious truth again?  Pali animals do not have a "right" to shoot rockets and commit terror attacks against Israeli civilians, while hiding behind their own.  And that's been well established that they do indeed do that.  All these long copy and paste Pallywood propaganda blowjobs are meaningless.


----------



## RoccoR (Dec 9, 2015)

montelatici,  et al,

There is a falsehood here, a truth here, a misrepresentation of a fact, and an extremely complex argument of a moral and ethical nature here.



montelatici said:


> The Geneva Convention documents are available on the UN website and says the same thing.
> 
> Article 1(4) of the First Additional Protocol to the Geneva Conventions of 1949 POW status now extends to members of an organized group fighting “against colonial domination and alien occupation and against racist regimes in the exercise of their right of self-determination”
> 
> ...


*(OBSERVATION)*

Ask yourself these simple questions.

Has anyone of you actually read the text of the Official Form _(so-called)_ "Dahiya Doctrine?"  
Do you personally know anyone who has read this _(so-called)_ doctrine?

The description of the "Dahiya Doctrine" is based largely on a US Embassy Cable (OCT 2008) that essential is very short on explanation:

Maj. Gen. Gadi Eisenkot described a GOI policy to respond with indiscriminate force against Lebanon should hostilities resume.​This Dahiya Doctrine is a variation of 1991 US Doctrine:

An established principle has been that the use of force, once its necessity was determined, should be implemented through a concentration of overwhelming force. While serving as Chairman of the US Joint Chiefs of Staff, General Colin Powell, adopted the Powell Doctrine, establishing the principle of overwhelming force as a necessary condition for waging war. ​War and Military Conflicts are “the continuation of policy by other means, and the very thing which creates policy.” _(General Carl von Clausewitz Prussian General Staff)_  GEN Clausewitz understood that the definition of war was “an act of violence intended to compel our opponent to fulfil our will.” 

*NOTE:*  What most people don't grasp is the War/Conflict differ from terrorism in that terrorism is precisely the use of random violence—especially killing force—against civilians, with the intent of spreading fear throughout a population, hoping this fear will advance a political objective _(breaking the will of the opposition to continue the struggle)_.  It is not terrorism if the overwhelming force is directed against a specific military objective, even if it generates civilian casualties.​Wars/Conflicts are fought on the basis of:

A state must intend to fight the war only for the sake of its just cause. 
A state may go to war only if the decision has been made by the appropriate authorities, according to the proper process, and made public. 
A state may resort to war only if it has exhausted all plausible, peaceful alternatives to resolving the conflict in question, in particular diplomatic negotiation.
A state may not resort to war if it can foresee that doing so will have no measurable impact on the situation.
A state must, prior to initiating a war, weigh the _universal_ goods expected to result from it, such as securing the just cause, against the _universal_ evils expected to result, notably casualties.
*(COMMENT)*

The (so-called) Dahiya Doctrine has nothing to do with the targeting of "civilians."  It has everything to do with:

A state may not resort to war if it can foresee that doing so will have no measurable impact on the situation.
A state must, prior to initiating a war, weigh the _consequence_ expected to result from the engagement (strategic or tactical, such as securing the just cause, against the _recognized_ evils result; notably casualties.
The military force may not use weapons or methods which are “evil in themselves.”  These include: mass rape campaigns; genocide or ethnic cleansing; using poison or treachery _(like disguising soldiers to look like the Red Cross)_.

In most of the discussion here, especial in this discussion thread _(Israel does not target civilians)_, is centrically bound to the issues of (1) genocide or ethnic cleansing --- and ---- (2) the incriminate fires which are in each such case, are of a nature to strike military objectives and civilians or civilian objects without distinction. 

The destruction of the civilian infrastructure of hostile regimes or opposing force, as a means of establishing deterrence against militant use of that infrastructure, or as a means of breaking the will of the opposing force by depriving the support of the general population, is not a war crime.  One of the key element in the adopted Powell Doctrine asks the question:  "Is the action supported by the American people?"  

Neither the US Powell Doctrine or the IS Dahiya Doctrine are evil in themselves.   

Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## Billo_Really (Dec 9, 2015)

Roudy said:


> Nope not a single Isrseli soldier in Gaza now.  There is a blockade which has been deemed legal. No occupation and certainly not belligerent. The belligerent are the ones led by a terrorist group, not under occupation, with genocidal intentions and are constantly targeting Israeli civilians while hiding behind their own.
> 
> Hamas = ISIS of Gaza.


If Gaza isn't occupied, then why can't they leave?


----------



## Kondor3 (Dec 9, 2015)

montelatici said:


> ...Hamas does not hide "behind the skirts of it woamen and children"...


The United Nations and Amnesty International say otherwise - as recently as their analysis of the Summer 2014 Gaza War...


----------



## Kondor3 (Dec 9, 2015)

Billo_Really said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Nope not a single Isrseli soldier in Gaza now.  There is a blockade which has been deemed legal. No occupation and certainly not belligerent. The belligerent are the ones led by a terrorist group, not under occupation, with genocidal intentions and are constantly targeting Israeli civilians while hiding behind their own.
> ...


Containment is different than occupation.

The Israelis merely keep your barbarian Neanderthals outside the gates...


----------



## Kondor3 (Dec 9, 2015)

Humanity said:


> ...Israel retains control of Gaza's airspace and coastline that, according to UNSC and UNGC, is "occupation"...


Israel is engaged in 'containment'... a.k.a. pest control... and they try to minimize civilian casualties while doing it.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Dec 9, 2015)

*Israel does not target civilians?
*
Of course not. It just kills them by the thousands with precision munitions.* *


----------



## RoccoR (Dec 9, 2015)

Kondor3, Humanity, et al,

The observation by "Humanity" is correct, but the evaluation, by the UN and Permanent Court of Justice and others, of the observation is entirely wrong.  Our Friend "Kondor" is more correct.  "Containment" is the right word.

Various decision making entities in Israel had come to the conclusion, in 2005 _(influenced by the response from Palestinians in the shadow of disengagement making the security situation worse)_, that Israel should focus on concentration of countermeasures in two directions: 

•  Motivations of the terrorist groups 
•  Operational capacity of the terrorist groups ​Israel's counterterrorism strategy tries to reduce the motivation and operational capacity of terrorist groups, such as HAMAS, Palestine Islamic Jihad, Al-Aqsa Martyr Brigades, Fattah Tanzim, and Hezbollah to adopt terrorism as a tactic. The problem the Israelis face is that their tactics often give the terrorist groups even more motivation to attack.  As the disengagement demonstrated, that the positive withdrawal cause just as much hostilities as would the expansion of settlements.  There was no net positive gain.  Thus, by 2009, Israeli had to institute the greater security in depth because it no longer had the ability to restore, and ensure, as far as possible, public order and safety, IAW Regulations 42 and 43 of the Hague.  The criminal activity had to be interdicted outside the area of control by the Palestinian terrorist.



Kondor3 said:


> Humanity said:
> 
> 
> > ...Israel retains control of Gaza's airspace and coastline that, according to UNSC and UNGC, is "occupation"...
> ...


*(COMMENT)*

False logic is as immersed issues around the Naval Blockades.  The Naval Blockade is to assist the curbing of illicit traffic in small arms and and preventing them from the hands of designated terrorists (A/RES/53/77 B) and (A/RES/55/33 F) and (A/RES/61/66). 

The is no reasonableness, on the part of Israel, in dropping its effective defense against Palestinian groups that have declare Jihad against Israel and wish to assume sovereignty over Israel.

Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## RoccoR (Dec 9, 2015)

P F Tinmore, et al,

Is this a whiled accusation, or do you actually know what weapons were used against what targets, with associated collateral civilian casualties?



P F Tinmore said:


> *Israel does not target civilians?*
> 
> Of course not. It just kills them by the thousands with precision munitions.* *


*(COMMENT)*

And how many of those casualties were caused by a failure of HAMAS from evacuation the battlefield and launch sites?

How many of the casualties were caused by HAMAS from operating from densely populated areas?

Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## Roudy (Dec 9, 2015)

Billo_Really said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Nope not a single Isrseli soldier in Gaza now.  There is a blockade which has been deemed legal. No occupation and certainly not belligerent. The belligerent are the ones led by a terrorist group, not under occupation, with genocidal intentions and are constantly targeting Israeli civilians while hiding behind their own.
> ...


Ask the Egyptians?


----------



## Billo_Really (Dec 10, 2015)

Roudy said:


> Ask the Egyptians?


Why can't they leave by sea or air?


----------



## Billo_Really (Dec 10, 2015)

Kondor3 said:


> Containment is different than occupation.
> 
> The Israelis merely keep your barbarian Neanderthals outside the gates...


You didn't answer the question.


----------



## Roudy (Dec 10, 2015)

Billo_Really said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Ask the Egyptians?
> ...


Ask the Egyptians.


----------



## Kondor3 (Dec 10, 2015)

P F Tinmore said:


> *Israel does not target civilians?*
> 
> Of course not. It just kills them by the thousands with precision munitions.* *


Indeed.

Precision munitions strike legitimate military targets - war assets embedded too close to civilians.

Stop embedding war-assets in such close proximity and this (large-scale collateral casualties) all goes away.

Easy.


----------



## Kondor3 (Dec 10, 2015)

Billo_Really said:


> Kondor3 said:
> 
> 
> > Containment is different than occupation.
> ...


Incorrect.

I noted that 'containment' is different than 'occupation'.

The Palestinians are being 'contained'.

'Containment', by definition, means you're forced to stay put.

Being forced to stay put means that you cannot leave.

Being unable to leave means that you're being contained, not occupied.


----------



## Humanity (Dec 10, 2015)

Kondor3 said:


> Humanity said:
> 
> 
> > ...Israel retains control of Gaza's airspace and coastline that, according to UNSC and UNGC, is "occupation"...
> ...



As already stated, UNSC, UNGC, several countries and humanitarian organisations consider the blockade "occupation"...

You dress it up any way you like to appease your zionut mentality, it's still "occupation"...


----------



## P F Tinmore (Dec 10, 2015)

RoccoR said:


> Kondor3, Humanity, et al,
> 
> The observation by "Humanity" is correct, but the evaluation, by the UN and Permanent Court of Justice and others, of the observation is entirely wrong.  Our Friend "Kondor" is more correct.  "Containment" is the right word.
> 
> ...


As the disengagement demonstrated, that the positive withdrawal cause just as much hostilities as would the expansion of settlements.​
Your so called positive withdrawal included setting up a system of closure.

Trashing Gaza's economy was not considered positive by the Palestinians.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Dec 10, 2015)

RoccoR said:


> P F Tinmore, et al,
> 
> Is this a whiled accusation, or do you actually know what weapons were used against what targets, with associated collateral civilian casualties?
> 
> ...


Load of crap, Rocco.

15,000 homes destroyed, 22 UNRWA schools destroyed, Gaza's power plant, sewage treatment plant, 419 businesses destroyed, 36 fishing boats, 42,000 acres of farmland.

All because the lying sacks of shit in Israel say they were hiding militants. Yet only a few hundred militants were killed.

How can you pimp such obvious lies?


----------



## Hollie (Dec 10, 2015)

P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore, et al,
> ...


Why is it that you believe you have an entitlement to acts of Islamic terrorism with no consequences?


----------



## theliq (Dec 10, 2015)

Kondor3 said:


> Billo_Really said:
> 
> 
> > Kondor3 said:
> ...


The Palestinians are under Occupation Kondie,just because you support this unlawful act,you are just defending the indefensible(Zionist Terrorism)by playing summantics sic with shabby words...................................................................your opinion is rank,like much of the Zionist ramblings.      You think you are being clever in front of the Pro-Zionist Lobby on here,but I see it as someone who finds these piquant situations difficult to comprehend,in a word your Brain is under severe CONTAINMENT,fcuking shame really because you are not a bad Guy....................steve.......Kondie Seasons Greeting to your Family and yourself.

ps If you lived for yourself,you will live in vain,I am glad to say you don't
   Live for us all Kondie and you will live again.


----------



## theliq (Dec 10, 2015)

Hollie said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > RoccoR said:
> ...


DUH


----------



## theliq (Dec 10, 2015)

Kondor3 said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > *Israel does not target civilians?*
> ...


Well so much for PRECISION MUNITION STRIKES because both Israel and the USA are fcuking hopeless at it.....thus the many deaths you both have created..............PRECISION  MY ASS.


----------



## theliq (Dec 10, 2015)

RoccoR said:


> P F Tinmore, et al,
> 
> Is this a whiled accusation, or do you actually know what weapons were used against what targets, with associated collateral civilian casualties?
> 
> ...


Yet another GORMLESS retort,Gee Rocco you just get worse,as time prevails


----------



## theliq (Dec 10, 2015)

RoccoR said:


> Kondor3, Humanity, et al,
> 
> The observation by "Humanity" is correct, but the evaluation, by the UN and Permanent Court of Justice and others, of the observation is entirely wrong.  Our Friend "Kondor" is more correct.  "Containment" is the right word.
> 
> ...


YAWN


----------



## Rehmani (Dec 10, 2015)

Roudy said:


> montelatici said:
> 
> 
> > Kondor3 said:
> ...


And you know the facts but don't have enough courage to accept the facts as it all jews nature.


----------



## Phoenall (Dec 10, 2015)

montelatici said:


> The one and only independent investigation of the attack on Gaza  came up with far different conclusions.  But, Rocco the propagandist knows that he only parrots Viscious Israeli Jew Occupier (VIGO) propaganda.
> 
> Physicians for Human Rights-Israel (PHR-Israel) recruited 8 independent international medical experts, who were not affiliated with either Israeli or Palestinian parties involved in the conflict. Experts were recruited in the fields of forensic pathology, emergency medicine, public health, paediatrics and paediatric intensive care, and health and human rights.* Participants were chosen because of their professional expertise and their freedom from affiliation to any state or party in Israel and the occupied Palestinian territories (OPT), or to any relevant political body in any other country.
> *
> ...







 NOPE the source is biased as it is funded from Islamic sources, try the Goldstone report that says the Palestinians committed more war crimes than Israel. Or even the UN that decreed that every rocket fired is a war crime.


----------



## Phoenall (Dec 10, 2015)

Rehmani said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > montelatici said:
> ...







 By facts you mean Islamic facts don't you, and not proven unbiased non partisan facts that show the Palestinians are in fact behind the murders of the civilians.


----------



## Rehmani (Dec 10, 2015)

Kondor3 said:


> Rehmani said:
> 
> 
> > Kondor3 said:
> ...


But the facts are that Israelis are killing civilian brutally and cowardly.


----------



## RoccoR (Dec 10, 2015)

"Billo_Really,  et al,

This is so very simple.



Billo_Really said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Nope not a single Isrseli soldier in Gaza now.  There is a blockade which has been deemed legal. No occupation and certainly not belligerent. The belligerent are the ones led by a terrorist group, not under occupation, with genocidal intentions and are constantly targeting Israeli civilians while hiding behind their own.
> ...


*(OBSERVATION)*

*Arab Leaders, Viewing Hamas as Worse Than Israel, Stay Silent*
By DAVID D. KIRKPATRICKJULY 30, 2014

After the military ouster of the Islamist government in Cairo last year, *Egypt has led a new coalition of Arab states — including Jordan, Saudi Arabia and the United Arab Emirates — that has effectively lined up with Israel in its fight against Hamas*, the Islamist movement that controls the Gaza Strip. That, in turn, may have contributed to the failure of the antagonists to reach a negotiated cease-fire even after more than three weeks of bloodshed.

“The Arab states’ loathing and fear of political Islam is so strong that it outweighs their allergy to Benjamin Netanyahu,” the prime minister of Israel, said Aaron David Miller, a scholar at the Wilson Center in Washington and a former Middle East negotiator under several presidents.

*Egypt sides with Israel in conflict with Hamas*
Sarah Lynch, Special for USA TODAY  24 July 2014

Normally, Egyptians would be decrying Israel for the Palestinian death toll in Gaza, which is at more than 750 and rising. But Abou Ahmed Shehab, 60, who sells scarves at a sidewalk stand in central Cairo, was quick to attack Hamas.

"The reason for what's happening to our Palestinian brothers is because of Hamas," he says. "Hamas is an extremist group."

*Arab journalist: Arab leaders pray Israel will get rid of Hamas once and for all*
Written by Allen West on July 21, 2014

ut what I’m quite certain you haven’t heard or seen is the point of view from Gaza-born Arab journalist, Abd Al-Bari Atwan. According to Atwan, even Arab leaders are tired of Hamas and “pray Israel will get rid of Hamas once and for all.”​*(COMMENT)*

This is not a new phenomenon.  Several Regional Arab governments have either kept quiet or publicly condemned Hamas for the crisis — while privately often expressing their support for Israel's bid to weaken the radical Palestinian group.

This dates back to a time before Operation Cast Lead.  The Arab Regional governments understand that the Palestinian Islamic Resistance is intentionally igniting periodic conflicts to make it outwardly appear that the Palestinians are the victims.  

This is a matter of quarantining a dangerous threat, that if given unrestrained freedoms, could set the region on fire.

Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## Rehmani (Dec 10, 2015)

Kondor3 said:


> Rehmani said:
> 
> 
> > ...Then why not, jews stuck around Telaviv in Israel. Why jews invade home land of Palestinian.
> ...


Invaders are invader and they have no right to own some one else country and invaders have to leave.


----------



## RoccoR (Dec 10, 2015)

Rehmani,  et al,

OK --- I'll play:  Arab Palestine for 200$...



Rehmani said:


> Invaders are invader and they have no right to own some one else country and invaders have to leave.


*(COMMENT)*

What Arab State did the Jewish Immigrants take?

What Arab State existed, west of the Jordan River, on 15 MAY 1948?

Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## Challenger (Dec 10, 2015)

Kondor3 said:


> Billo_Really said:
> 
> 
> > Roudy said:
> ...



That's the price they've been paying for letting the Zionist barbarian Neandethals through the gates in the first place.


----------



## Rehmani (Dec 10, 2015)

Phoenall said:


> Rehmani said:
> 
> 
> > Roudy said:
> ...


Look phoney you are jew and you don't want to accept the facts that jews are invaders and Palestinian are under occupation and known to world freedom fighter.


----------



## Challenger (Dec 10, 2015)

RoccoR said:


> Rehmani,  et al,
> 
> OK --- I'll play:  Arab Palestine for 200$...
> 
> ...



Palestine, to both questions.


----------



## Challenger (Dec 10, 2015)

RoccoR said:


> And how many of those casualties were caused by a failure of HAMAS from evacuation the battlefield and launch sites?
> 
> How many of the casualties were caused by HAMAS from operating from densely populated areas?





Kondor3 said:


> Precision munitions strike legitimate military targets - war assets embedded too close to civilians.
> 
> Stop embedding war-assets in such close proximity and this (large-scale collateral casualties) all goes away.



Strawman arguments; if the Zionist IDF has the capability to do this:


and


there can be no justification for this




Unless the intent is to kill indiscriminately.


----------



## Kondor3 (Dec 10, 2015)

theliq said:


> ...The Palestinians are under Occupation Kondie,just because you support this unlawful act...


It really doesn't matter. The Jews of Israel are engaged in Reconquista, and, given the few slivers of land remaining to be secured, their multi-generational goal is now in sight.



> ...you are just defending the indefensible (Zionist Terrorism)...


I'm not trying to defend it. There is never any defense for Reconquista. Just as there is never any defense for original Conquest. I merely support the soon-to-be Winner.



> ...by playing summantics sic with shabby words...


I thought they were entirely functional words, and that they did a good yeoman's job as a partisan exercise in applied logic.



> ...your opinion is rank,like much of the Zionist ramblings...


If that's meant to be a literary review... don't quit your day-job.



> ...You think you are being clever in front of the Pro-Zionist Lobby on here...


No... I think I'm one voice amongst many friends of Israel, who stand against a Muslim-Palestinian online propaganda machine; and their fifth-column tag-alongs.



> ...but I see it as someone who finds these piquant situations difficult to comprehend...


Oh, I comprehend the full range of options well enough on the macro level; it's just that there is only one solution (Israeli completion of their Reconquista) left on the table.

The time for creating a Palestinian State would have been anytime in the period 1948-1967, and, failing that, at various points between 1967 and 2000 - the beginning of the 2nd Intifada - which closed that window forevermore. Since then, and by now, there isn't enough contiguous land remaining in which to create a Palestinian State, anyway. It's over.

A one-state solution will not work; that window closed back in the 1950s or 1960s.

A two-state solution will not work; that window closed in 2000 with the 2nd Intifada.

That means that, ultimately, either the Israelis or the Palestinians have to go.

The Israelis have all the playing cards and all the muscle, so it won't be them.

Which means the Palestinians have to go.

As a matter of policy and practice, Israel does not intentionally target civilians in order to inflict civilian casualties, but the insistence of Hamas, et al, in continuing to embed war assets (rocket launchers, operations centers, staging areas, sally ports and tunnels, logistics centers, munitions caches, communications centers, etc.) in civilian residential neighborhoods, mosques, schools, hospitals and clinics, etc., have resulted in large numbers of unintentional but necessary civilian casualties, as the Israelis have prosecuted this ongoing asymmetrical warfare with their sworn mortal enemies.

As to how the Palestinians will leave...

They can go, carried out by their feet, or...

They can go, walking out, with their families and belongings, and with the prospect of a happy, safe, secure life and a prosperous future, elsewhere, to look forward to.

Life is almost always a better choice than Death.

The rag-tag so-called Palestinians need to choose Life.



> ...,in a word your Brain is under severe CONTAINMENT ,fcuking shame really because you are not a bad Guy...


Thank you for your opinion.



> ...Seasons Greeting to your Family and yourself...


Thank you. And to you, as well.


----------



## Kondor3 (Dec 10, 2015)

Challenger said:


> ...there can be no justification for this...


Of course there is a justification...

It's called annihilating enemy military targets...

Given the power of the weapons required to do such a thing...

It is incumbent upon Hamas et al to ensure that they do not endanger their civilians by embedding war assets close enough to their civilians so as to trigger such collateral damage to civilian infrastructure or to trigger large numbers of civilian casualties.

The longer that Hamas et al continue to embed war assets amongst their civilians, the longer we will continue to see such unfortunate but necessary civilian casualties...

The answer is simple...

Move the war assets.


----------



## RoccoR (Dec 10, 2015)

Challenger,  et al,

Wrong.



Challenger said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > Rehmani,  et al,
> ...


*(REFERENCE)*

02/27/1948 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


PAL/138 Future government of Palestine - UN Palestine Commission as successor Government of Palestine/UK memorandum (excerpts) - Press release

*(COMMENT)*

The name Palestine was a designated short title for the territory to which the Mandate applied.  Paragraph 1, Palestine Order in Council, League of Nations.

Palestine was not an Arab State.  It was a "legal entity" under the Administration of the designated Mandatory, appointed by the Allied Powers.

Palestine will continue to be a legal entity but it will still not be a sovereign state because it will not be immediately self-governing.  The Arab Higher Committee rejected the offer presented by Resolution 181 (II), and the opportunity to participate in the Steps Preparatory to Independence.

On mid-night 14/15 May 1948, Jewish State [Part II, Section B - Boundaries, General Assembly Resolution 181 (II)] became a self-governing sovereignty.  No establishment of an Arab State was coordinated.

Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## Kondor3 (Dec 10, 2015)

Challenger said:


> Kondor3 said:
> 
> 
> > Billo_Really said:
> ...


Awwwwww... isn't that cute... Automatic Gainsay... how quaint... although I have no idea how that advances this sidebar about Occupation vs. Containment...


----------



## Hollie (Dec 10, 2015)

Challenger said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > And how many of those casualties were caused by a failure of HAMAS from evacuation the battlefield and launch sites?
> ...


Such silly melodrama. Why not provide some background on the last photo you cut and pasted (unattributed, unsourced and unidentified)?

Why do you excuse cowardice on the part of your Islamist terrorist heroes who wage wars of aggression from behind women and children?


----------



## Phoenall (Dec 10, 2015)

Rehmani said:


> Kondor3 said:
> 
> 
> > Rehmani said:
> ...







 Then provide the evidence and you will see Israel attacked by the rest of the world. Refuse and you will be seen as just another LYING propagandist.
 FACT     hamas breaches the Geneva conventions by placing rocket launchers in civilian areas
 FACT     hamas does this so that civilians will be killed
 FACT     Israel gives warning of where they will attack and hamas stops the citizens from leaving their homes
 FACT     Under international law hamas are the ones murdering the civilians and they should be dealt with by the ICC/ICJ


----------



## Phoenall (Dec 10, 2015)

Rehmani said:


> Kondor3 said:
> 
> 
> > Rehmani said:
> ...








 I agree so tell the arab muslims to pack their bags and go as they have invaded Palestine. Then tell then to go from all the western nations they have invaded.


----------



## Phoenall (Dec 10, 2015)

Challenger said:


> Kondor3 said:
> 
> 
> > Billo_Really said:
> ...








 They had no choice as they did not control the land and after the defeat of the ottomans in 1917 they lost any chance of ever getting the land.


----------



## Phoenall (Dec 10, 2015)

Challenger said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > Rehmani,  et al,
> ...







 So where are the international treaties giving the land to the arab muslims to create a Palestinian state.

 When did this state come into existence as the Ottomans refused it as did the LoN.


----------



## Phoenall (Dec 10, 2015)

Challenger said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > And how many of those casualties were caused by a failure of HAMAS from evacuation the battlefield and launch sites?
> ...








 Not a bad picture of Syria you have used there


----------



## Phoenall (Dec 10, 2015)

Hollie said:


> Challenger said:
> 
> 
> > RoccoR said:
> ...








 A stock photo that Al Jazeera used and claimed was gaza, was in fact Syria. Shows how gullible and easily fooled rat boy is.


----------



## fanger (Dec 10, 2015)

Once a Palestinian Haven, Affluent Gaza Town Reduced to Rubble





read more: http://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/1.609275


----------



## Phoenall (Dec 10, 2015)

fanger said:


> Once a Palestinian Haven, Affluent Gaza Town Reduced to Rubble
> 
> 
> 
> ...









 Source is Reuters and we all know how they like to be biased against the Jews


----------



## P F Tinmore (Dec 10, 2015)

RoccoR said:


> Rehmani,  et al,
> 
> OK --- I'll play:  Arab Palestine for 200$...
> 
> ...


Why do you keep pimping Israeli propaganda.

You know that the rights of the people do not require a state.


----------



## Hollie (Dec 10, 2015)

fanger said:


> Once a Palestinian Haven, Affluent Gaza Town Reduced to Rubble
> 
> 
> 
> ...


At the link:

"In Khuzaa, people say at least 70 were killed and more bodies may lie beneath the rubble. It was a site of fierce fighting between Israeli forces, Hamas and other Palestinian militants, who said they detonated explosives and fired anti-tank rockets at Israeli troops."


So it would appear that once again your Islamist terrorist heroes were using civilians and civilian infrastructure to wage war. 

Once again, you were given a beatdown by the better military.

Petition UNRWA for more welfare dollars.


----------



## Phoenall (Dec 10, 2015)

P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > Rehmani,  et al,
> ...








 Did those rights exist in 1917, 1923, 1948 or 1967, Or are they a more recent thing that are not yet international law ?


----------



## Humanity (Dec 10, 2015)

Phoenall said:


> fanger said:
> 
> 
> > Once a Palestinian Haven, Affluent Gaza Town Reduced to Rubble
> ...



Hang on... You just said it was Al Jazeera and proven to be Syria?

So, it IS Gaza then...

To be fair, I really don't give a flying fuck whether you think that Reuters are biased or not (I believe them to be pretty balanced)...

But Reuters did NOT raise this Gazan town to the ground!


----------



## RoccoR (Dec 10, 2015)

P F Tinmore,  et al,

And just where does it say that the Arab has the right of insurrection or to steal the sovereignty of the territory of another.



P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > Rehmani,  et al,
> ...


*(COMMENT)*

The treaty did not surrender the land to the Arab, it surrendered the land to the Allied Powers.

The argument that the right of the Jewish Immigrants is just as valid; even more so since they successfully defended their independence.

Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## Phoenall (Dec 10, 2015)

Humanity said:


> Phoenall said:
> 
> 
> > fanger said:
> ...







 The source was Rueters and it was reproduced by Al Jazeera. The fact that doing a google search on the pictures shows it to be Syria is what counts.

 And there are far too many groups proving reuters to be biased against Israel for them not to be.


----------



## Billo_Really (Dec 10, 2015)

Phoenall said:


> NOPE the source is biased as it is funded from Islamic sources, try the Goldstone report that says the Palestinians committed more war crimes than Israel. Or even the UN that decreed that every rocket fired is a war crime.


The *Goldstone Report* didn't say anything of the kind, you lying piece of shit.

Here's what it did say...

*Palestinian's using human shields*:

_The *Mission found no evidence*, however, to suggest that Palestinian armed groups either directed civilians to areas where attacks were being launched or that they forced civilians to remain within the vicinity of the attacks._​
*Israeli's using human shields:*

_The Mission investigated four incidents in which* the Israeli armed forces coerced Palestinian civilian men at gunpoint* to take part in house searches during the military operations (chap. XIV). *The men were blindfolded and handcuffed as they were forced to enter houses ahead of the Israeli soldiers.*

*The Mission concludes that this practice amounts to the use of Palestinian civilians as human shields and is therefore prohibited by international humanitarian law.* It puts the right to life of the civilians at risk in an arbitrary and unlawful manner and constitutes cruel and inhuman treatment. The use of human shields also is a war crime. 

The Palestinian men used as human shields* were questioned under threat of death or injury to extract information about Hamas*, Palestinian combatants and tunnels. This constitutes a further violation of international humanitarian law.
_​*Human shield summary:*
_Israeli's: Yes
Palestinian's: No_​
*Deliberate attacks against civilians:
*
_The Mission investigated 11 incidents in which the Israeli armed forces launched direct attacks against civilians with lethal outcome (chap. XI). The facts in all bar one of the attacks indicate* no justifiable military objective*.

...*the Mission finds that the conduct of the Israeli armed forces constitutes grave breaches of the Fourth Geneva Convention* in respect of wilful killings and wilfully causing great suffering to protected persons and, as such, give rise to individual criminal responsibility. It also finds that the direct targeting and arbitrary killing of Palestinian civilians is a violation of the right to life.
_​*Palestinian's deliberately targeting civilians:*

_According to the Government of Israel, during the military operations there were *four Israeli fatalities* in southern Israel, of whom* three were civilians and one a soldier*. They were killed by rocket and mortar attacks by Palestinian armed groups. In addition, *nine Israeli soldiers were killed* during the fighting inside the Gaza strip, *four of whom as a result of friendly fire.*_​*Targeting of civilians summary:*

_Israel: Committed grave breaches of the Geneva Convention by deliberately targeting civilians and infrastructure; and killed 4 of their own soldiers.

Palestinian's: 3 civilians killed; 10 Israeli soldiers killed (4 killed by friendly fire).
_​You must really enjoy lying, you fucked up little troll?


----------



## Billo_Really (Dec 10, 2015)

RoccoR said:


> And just where does it say that the Arab has the right of insurrection or to steal the sovereignty of the territory of another.


Right here.

*United Nations General Assembly Resolution A/RES/33/24 of 29 November 1978:*
_“2. *Reaffirms the legitimacy of the struggle of peoples for independence*, territorial integrity, national unity and liberation from colonial and foreign domination and foreign occupation *by all available means, particularly armed struggle*;”_​
Note that Israel has no sovereignty in the West Bank, Gaza, Golan Heights and East Jerusalem.




RoccoR said:


> The treaty did not surrender the land to the Arab, it surrendered the land to the Allied Powers.


Don't change the subject, that's not the issue.  The "land" in question, was seized during the '67 war.




RoccoR said:


> The argument that the right of the Jewish Immigrants is just as valid; even more so since they successfully defended their independence.


Not when you're an overwhelming minority.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Dec 10, 2015)

RoccoR said:


> P F Tinmore,  et al,
> 
> And just where does it say that the Arab has the right of insurrection or to steal the sovereignty of the territory of another.
> 
> ...


Are you suggesting that the Palestinians stole someone else's territory.

Link?


----------



## Humanity (Dec 10, 2015)

Phoenall said:


> Humanity said:
> 
> 
> > Phoenall said:
> ...



Well, two things....

1) Provide a link that proves this is Syria...
2) I do find it quick sick that you prefer to argue over where a photograph is taken than deplore the actions...

We can all search Google for images of destruction in Gaza... None very different to the 'questionable' image

images of gaza destroyed - Pesquisa Google


----------



## Roudy (Dec 10, 2015)

Rehmani said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > montelatici said:
> ...



The facts are that Hamas uses its own civilians as human shields.  Their fighters do not wear uniforms for this very purpose. They're savages and cowards. But then again, that's what all Islamists are.


----------



## Roudy (Dec 10, 2015)

Rehmani said:


> Kondor3 said:
> 
> 
> > Rehmani said:
> ...



Can you provide a link that Israelis target civilians intentionally. But we do know that's what Islamist animals do in the name of Allah.


----------



## Roudy (Dec 10, 2015)

fanger said:


> Once a Palestinian Haven, Affluent Gaza Town Reduced to Rubble
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Ya think the Hamas terrorist animals would think twice about shooting rockets at Israel next time?


----------



## Phoenall (Dec 10, 2015)

Billo_Really said:


> Phoenall said:
> 
> 
> > NOPE the source is biased as it is funded from Islamic sources, try the Goldstone report that says the Palestinians committed more war crimes than Israel. Or even the UN that decreed that every rocket fired is a war crime.
> ...







 Did you miss this then


 Palestinian armed groups, where they launched attacks close to civilian or protected buildings, unnecessarily exposed the civilian population of Gaza to danger.


----------



## Phoenall (Dec 10, 2015)

Billo_Really said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > And just where does it say that the Arab has the right of insurrection or to steal the sovereignty of the territory of another.
> ...








 Neither does Palestine as they are split by politics and religion.

 No as we are talking about pre 1948 and the land was never surrendered to the arab muslims

 Do explain how when the Jews outnumber the Palestinians inside Israel. They only occupy and police the west bank for defensive purposes. The Jews have demonstrated free determination, when will the Palestinian arab muslims ?


----------



## Phoenall (Dec 10, 2015)

P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore,  et al,
> ...






 YES look at the terms and conditions of the LoN charter and the LoN mandate for Palestine. The arab muslims received 78% of Palestine and the Jews 22%. So why do the arab muslims want what was never theirs to begin with.


----------



## Phoenall (Dec 10, 2015)

Humanity said:


> Phoenall said:
> 
> 
> > Humanity said:
> ...







 Why don't you the means and methods of doing so have been posted on this board many times

 What I find sick is islamonuts believing that every picture supposedly of gaza is actually gaza  so they can justify their hatred of the Jews, Zionists and Israel


----------



## P F Tinmore (Dec 10, 2015)

RoccoR said:


> montelatici,  et al,
> 
> There is a falsehood here, a truth here, a misrepresentation of a fact, and an extremely complex argument of a moral and ethical nature here.
> 
> ...


The destruction of the civilian infrastructure of hostile regimes or opposing force, as a means of establishing deterrence against militant use of that infrastructure, or as a means of breaking the will of the opposing force by depriving the support of the general population, is not a war crime.​
Would firing rockets on illegal settlements be a crime?


----------



## RoccoR (Dec 10, 2015)

P F Tinmore,  et al,

That is not what I am saying --- 



P F Tinmore said:


> Are you suggesting that the Palestinians stole someone else's territory.
> 
> Link?


*(COMMENT)*

I'm say that what is today called sovereign Israel was never taken from a sovereign Arab State.   

Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## P F Tinmore (Dec 10, 2015)

Phoenall said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > RoccoR said:
> ...


The LoN didn't have any land.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Dec 10, 2015)

RoccoR said:


> P F Tinmore,  et al,
> 
> That is not what I am saying ---
> 
> ...


5. Immediate steps shall be taken, in *Trust and Non-Self-Governing Territories or all other territories which have not yet attained independence,* to transfer all powers to the peoples of those territories, without any conditions or reservations, in accordance with their freely expressed will and desire, without any distinction as to race, creed or colour, in order to enable them to enjoy complete independence and freedom.

The United Nations and Decolonization - Declaration


----------



## montelatici (Dec 10, 2015)

RoccoR said:


> P F Tinmore,  et al,
> 
> And just where does it say that the Arab has the right of insurrection or to steal the sovereignty of the territory of another.
> 
> ...



You are confused.  Palestine (and Syria) were under a joint Occupied Enemy Territory Administration or OETA  was a joint British and French military administration until the mandates were established.  The mandates, to be valid once the Covenant of the League of Nations was signed, had to be consistent with the Covenant. To be consistent with eh Covenant, the Mandatory's obligation was to bring the native people to a condition in which they would be self-governing. The native people were not the Jewish Europeans that had been migrating.

The Covenant article 22, states in part:

"To those colonies and territories which as a consequence of the late war have ceased to be under the sovereignty of the States which formerly governed them and *which are inhabited by peoples not yet able to stand by themselves under the strenuous conditions of the modern world, there should be applied the principle that the well-being and development of such peoples form a sacred trust of civilisation and that securities for the performance of this trust should be embodied in this Covenant.*

The best method of giving practical effect to this principle is that the tutelage of such peoples should be entrusted to advanced nations who by reason of their resources, their experience or their geographical position can best undertake this responsibility, and who are willing to accept it, and that this tutelage should be exercised by them as Mandatories on behalf of the League.

The character of the mandate must differ according to the stage of the development of the people, the geographical situation of the territory, its economic conditions and other similar circumstances.

Certain communities formerly belonging to the Turkish Empire have reached a stage of development where their existence as independent nations can be provisionally recognized subject to the rendering of administrative advice and assistance by a Mandatory until such time as they are able to stand alone. The wishes of these communities must be a principal consideration in the selection of the Mandatory.

Other peoples, especially those of Central Africa, are at such a stage that the Mandatory must be responsible for the administration of the territory under conditions which will guarantee freedom of conscience and religion, subject only to the maintenance of public order and morals, the prohibition of abuses such as the slave trade, the arms traffic and the liquor traffic, and the prevention of the establishment of fortifications or military and naval bases and of military training of the natives for other than police purposes and the defence of territory, and will also secure equal opportunities for the trade and commerce of other Members of the League.

There are territories, such as South-West Africa and certain of the South Pacific Islands, which, owing to the sparseness of their population, or their small size, or their remoteness from the centres of civilisation, or their geographical contiguity to the territory of the Mandatory, and other circumstances, can be best administered under the laws of the Mandatory as integral portions of its territory, subject to the safeguards above mentioned in the interests of the indigenous population..."

While most non-partisans agree that Palestine was, in fact, considered to be one of the former Turkish territories that were given provisional statehood, even were Palestine to be considered one of the latter cases, the Mandatory was still required to manage the country to the benefit of the native inhabitants. Furthermore, if there were any previous agreements that prevented a signatory to the Covenant from fulfilling its duties to the native people, such as the Balfour Declaration, Article 20 required that such agreements be abrogated. 

So Rocco, you don't have a leg to stand on.

Furthermore, it is the Zionist Europeans with the complicity of the British, that led an insurrection to steal the provisional or promised (under treaty) sovereignty from the native people of Palestine.

*ARTICLE 20.*
The Members of the League severally agree that this Covenant is accepted as abrogating all obligations or understandings inter se which are inconsistent with the terms thereof, and solemnly undertake that they will not hereafter enter into any engagements inconsistent with the terms thereof.

In case any Member of the League shall, before becoming a Member of the League, have undertaken any obligations inconsistent with the terms of this Covenant,* it shall be the duty of such Member to take immediate steps to procure its release from such obligations.*


----------



## P F Tinmore (Dec 10, 2015)

montelatici said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore,  et al,
> ...


In case any Member of the League shall, before becoming a Member of the League, have undertaken any obligations inconsistent with the terms of this Covenant,* it shall be the duty of such Member to take immediate steps to procure its release from such obligations.*​

It says that Britain had to ditch the Balfour Declaration before it could be a member of the LoN.

*Interesting.*


----------



## Humanity (Dec 10, 2015)

Phoenall said:


> Humanity said:
> 
> 
> > Phoenall said:
> ...



Why don't you understand that, when you make a statement and you are challenged that it's YOUR responsibility to back it up...

But hey, you never do.... Too much to expect...

I provided a link to photos of Gaza in pieces!


----------



## Challenger (Dec 10, 2015)

Roudy said:


> Rehmani said:
> 
> 
> > Roudy said:
> ...








Not quite the spit and polish of the Brigade of Guards, or the USMC perhaps, but they look uniformed to me...


----------



## Hollie (Dec 10, 2015)

Challenger said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Rehmani said:
> ...


Thats a wonderful Islamic terrorist fashion show (for Islamic terrorist cowards), but such silly cutting and pasting serves only to reinforce a lot of negative stereotypes about you Islamic terrorist Pom Pom flailers.


----------



## Challenger (Dec 10, 2015)

RoccoR said:


> The destruction of the civilian infrastructure of hostile regimes or opposing force, as a means of establishing deterrence against militant use of that infrastructure, or as a means of breaking the will of the opposing force by depriving the support of the general population, is not a war crime.



The Nuremburg Charter might disagree with you. Zionist Israel will have to prove military necessity to avoid article 6b defining War Crimes "...wanton destruction of cities, towns or villages, or devastation not justified by military necessity..."


----------



## Hollie (Dec 10, 2015)

Challenger said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > The destruction of the civilian infrastructure of hostile regimes or opposing force, as a means of establishing deterrence against militant use of that infrastructure, or as a means of breaking the will of the opposing force by depriving the support of the general population, is not a war crime.
> ...



Just curious what the Nuremburg Charter addresses in regard to acts of war by Islamic terrorists.


----------



## Challenger (Dec 10, 2015)

Hollie said:


> "In Khuzaa, people say at least 70 were killed and more bodies may lie beneath the rubble. It was a site of fierce fighting between Israeli forces, Hamas and other Palestinian militants, who said they detonated explosives and fired anti-tank rockets at Israeli troops."



You missed a bit, 

"Citing residents, Human Rights Watch said on Monday Israeli forces fired on and killed civilians in the town between July 23 to 25, actions which it said if proven would be war crimes."

So unless IDF soldiers were just shooting at random, for fun....

Lets read what IDF soldiers themselves say, from Breaking the Silence:

"testimony catalog number: 88919
rank: Captain
area: Gaza strip
period: 2014

I’ll tell you about something that I consider very, very, very problematic. It took place within our forces, and it happened in lots of cases. During quiet moments, when not a lot of intelligence was coming in, when we weren’t really firing at any targets, at times when there was a lull – for whatever reason, and Hamas was quiet and not firing as much as usual – then there was always a question mark: is [Hamas] not shooting now because we managed to hit a strategic target? And then we start digging into our intelligence to see if something specific happened, or maybe they’re just collecting themselves? Or maybe they really are taking a break because we called a ceasefire and they are honoring it. And during such a lull an officer will come up to you – sometimes a more senior one, sometimes less – and say, *“OK, we have this moment of quiet, let’s see which targets we haven’t bombed yet, what else we can incriminate, what else we can declare as definite targets, let’s start working on it.”* And then you find yourself – and I’m being very careful about how I say this – coercing yourself to find more targets that are quality targets, good targets. Now, in some cases that’s totally legit. You’ve suddenly got a moment of quiet so you can clear out all the noise and look at the data that’s coming in and see if it’s really quality and if you can wrest some targets out of it, or figure out some puzzle that eluded you until now by cross-checking data or something else. And sometimes the forces are so eager to keep firing or creating more targets for themselves, that often you cut a few corners to be able to say, “OK, there might be something here, and in the past when we saw such things we turned out to be right, and, well, if the house is empty and you happen to have the munitions then OK, go ahead, take it down.” That was how it was for everyone. Everyone wanted to take part."


----------



## Challenger (Dec 10, 2015)

Hollie said:


> Challenger said:
> 
> 
> > RoccoR said:
> ...



Look it up for yourself: Refworld | Charter of the International Military Tribunal - Annex to the Agreement for the prosecution and punishment of the major war criminals of the European Axis ("London Agreement")


----------



## Hollie (Dec 10, 2015)

Challenger said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> > "In Khuzaa, people say at least 70 were killed and more bodies may lie beneath the rubble. It was a site of fierce fighting between Israeli forces, Hamas and other Palestinian militants, who said they detonated explosives and fired anti-tank rockets at Israeli troops."
> ...


You missed a bit,

"citing residents"...

In your cut and paste travels, you might want to cut and paste some independent testimony.


----------



## Hollie (Dec 10, 2015)

Challenger said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> > Challenger said:
> ...


I did. The language is less amenable to acts of war (irrespective of affiliation to an Islamic terrorist organization or in furtherance of the Hamas Charter) than you are.


----------



## RoccoR (Dec 10, 2015)

P F Tinmore, et al,

I don't like to address hypotheticals.



P F Tinmore said:


> The destruction of the civilian infrastructure of hostile regimes or opposing force, as a means of establishing deterrence against militant use of that infrastructure, or as a means of breaking the will of the opposing force by depriving the support of the general population, is not a war crime.​
> Would firing rockets on illegal settlements be a crime?


*(COMMENT)*

There are two general principles that take precedence as the correct protocols:

•  Every State has the duty to refrain from the threat or use of force to violate the existing international boundaries of another State or as a means of solving international disputes, including territorial disputes and problems concerning frontiers of States.

•  Examples of rules found to be customary and which have corresponding provisions in Additional Protocol I include: the principle of distinction between civilians and combatants and between civilian objects and military objectives; the prohibition of indiscriminate attacks; and the unwarranted direct targeting of civilians and civilian object. ​If you deliberately target "settlements" of dubious military consequence, then there must be more than merely the 'just cause" argument.  Civilians must not be deliberate targets of the conflict; great care must be taken to avoid inadvertent civilian casualties.    Precautions should be taken to minimize civilian casualties,

Within the overarching concept of "HARM's WAY" there are two doctrines within "Just War Theory" – the Doctrine of Double Effect (DDE) and the Doctrine of Supreme Emergency (DSE) – suspend these provisions: 

•  The DDE offers justification for killing civilians in war, so long as those deaths constitute (foreseeable) accidents rather than intentional acts; 

•  The DSE vacates non-combatant immunity in situations where the military acts as the agent of a nation-state facing total annihilation. ​Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## fanger (Dec 10, 2015)

Roudy said:


> Rehmani said:
> 
> 
> > Kondor3 said:
> ...


Here ya go


----------



## RoccoR (Dec 10, 2015)

montelatici,  et al,

Nonsense.



montelatici said:


> So Rocco, you don't have a leg to stand on.
> 
> Furthermore, it is the Zionist Europeans with the complicity of the British, that led an insurrection to steal the provisional or promised (under treaty) sovereignty from the native people of Palestine.
> 
> ...


*(COMMENT)*

Nothing in the League of Nation Covenant addresses politico-military agreements made after the Covenant.  Nothing in the covenant promises anything specific to the Arab Palestinians _(although the Mandate for Palestine partitioned 77% of the territory to be an Arab State)_, or obligates the Allied Power to surrender anything _(to the inhabitants of the enemy occupied territory)_ that was surrendered to the Allied Powers after the Covenant.

Remember the Allied Powers wrote the Covenant, and the Allied Powers wrote the Convention, treaties and mandates which followed.  The Allied Powers determine the proper disposition just as the 1924 Treaty of Lausanne states:  

*ARTICLE 16*.  Treaty of Lausanne

Turkey hereby renounces all rights and title whatsoever over or respecting the territories situated outside the frontiers laid down in the present Treaty and the islands other than those over which her sovereignty is recognized by the said Treaty, *the future of these territories and islands being settled or to be settled by the parties concerned*.​
The parties concerned being the Allied Powers who accepted the "renounced rights and titles."  The Allied Powers determine the future of the territories.

Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## RoccoR (Dec 10, 2015)

P F Tinmore,  et al,

General Assembly Resolution 1514 (XV) of 14 December 1960

It is not within the "Functions and Powers" of the General Assembly  (Chapter IV Articles 9 thru 22, of the Charter), to create international law.

Article 10:   The General Assembly may discuss any questions or any matters within the scope of the present Charter or relating to the powers and functions of any organs provided for in the present Charter, and, except as provided in Article 12, may make recommendations to the Members of the United Nations or to the Security Council or to both on any such questions or matters.  If a Resolutions is intended to be law, the it is recommended to the Sixth Committee, one of the six Main Committees of the General Assembly, is allocated agenda items related to legal matters.  That is how a resolution gets on the path to become International law :

The Sixth Committee submits a separate report to the plenary on every agenda item allocated to it. Each report:


indicates the meetings at which the item was considered
summarizes the committee's consideration of the item
identifies the sponsors of draft resolutions
reports the vote, if any, of Member States on draft texts
transmits the final version of draft resolutions and/or decisions recommended to the plenary for adoption
symbol pattern
A/session/-
example: A/69/502

The plenary considers each report and votes on the draft resolutions or decisions it contains. ​Nothing in the  The United Nations and Decolonization - Declaration supersedes the Charter; including Article 73.



P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore,  et al,
> ...


*(COMMENT)*

This is not a demand or International Law.

It comes after the establishment of the State of Israel.
It does not apply to the West Bank or Gaza Strip because those partitioned territories are covered under treaties (Jordan and Egypt).

Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## montelatici (Dec 10, 2015)

1. There is no international dispute, the conflict is between an occupied population and the occupier.

2. Settlements in occupied Palestine are not civilian, they are military citadels which are utilized to facilitate further military conquest


RoccoR said:


> montelatici,  et al,
> 
> Nonsense.
> 
> ...



You are very confused.

1. The Covenant promises the native people, in the case of Palestine the Arabs, the Mandatory's tutelage to enable the native people to assume full sovereignty from provisional sovereignty.

2. By signing the Covenant the party signing agreed that:

"The Members of the League severally agree that this Covenant is accepted as abrogating all obligations or understandings inter se which are inconsistent with the terms thereof, and solemnly undertake that they will not hereafter enter into any engagements inconsistent with the terms thereof.

In case any Member of the League shall, before becoming a Member of the League, have undertaken any obligations inconsistent with the terms of this Covenant, *it shall be the duty of such Member to take immediate steps to procure its release from such obligations."*

The Balfour Declaration was inconsistent with the Covenant.  The Zionists were not natives of Palestine.  They were Europeans.

What is so difficult for you to understand?


----------



## RoccoR (Dec 10, 2015)

Challenger,  et al,

The today is pretty much the same as the law, set down by the Judgment.  The Rome Statutes use the same language although expanded in some sense.



Challenger said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > The destruction of the civilian infrastructure of hostile regimes or opposing force, as a means of establishing deterrence against militant use of that infrastructure, or as a means of breaking the will of the opposing force by depriving the support of the general population, is not a war crime.
> ...


*(COMMENT)*

Well, no matter who is being charged, the rule of "military necessity" applies.  If it is essential that the will of the Palestinian people be broken in order for them to sue for peace, then that is the justification.  

The justification comes directly from the Arab Higher Committee that stated in part:

"The Arabs of Palestine will never recognise the validity of the extorted partition recommendations or the authority of the United Nations to make them."
"The Arabs of Palestine consider that any attempt by the Jews or any power group of powers to establish a Jewish state in Arab territory is an act of aggression which will be resisted in self-defense."
"The Arabs of Palestine made a solemn declaration before the United Nations, before God and history, that they will never submit or yield to any power going to Palestine to enforce partition. The only way to establish partition is first to wipe them out — man, woman and child." ​This is, in effect, where the Arabs of Palestine, openly defy the Resolution of the General Assembly and are engaged in a deliberate effort to alter by force the settlement envisaged therein.  It is in effect, a Declaration of War.

Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## RoccoR (Dec 10, 2015)

montelatici,  et al,

Not that it makes any difference today, since the Covenant is no longer in force, there is a time line that expresses the INTENT of the ALLIED POWERs.



montelatici said:


> 1. There is no international dispute, the conflict is between an occupied population and the occupier.
> 
> 2. Settlements in occupied Palestine are not civilian, they are military citadels which are utilized to facilitate further military conquest
> 
> ...


*(COMMENT)*

The Allied Powers who wrote the covenant, never declared the holder of any obligation as "inconsistent with the covenant."

The Allied Powers, who wrote the Covenant in 1919, held the San Remo Convention in 1920.  The Order in Council (of the League of Nations) was 1922, as was the Mandate for Palestine.  THERE is absolutely no question on the matter.  The Council of the League of Nations stated the Principal Allied Powers have agreed the contents and intend of the Mandate.  It was their INTENT to favor the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, facilitate Jewish immigration in the furtherance of a Jewish National Home; for all Jews who are willing to make such a Jewish National Home.

Don't confuse what the pro-Palestinians would like law to say on the matter, and what these fundamental documents say, and the order in which the Powers established their intent.  

Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## montelatici (Dec 10, 2015)

The natives of Palestine had every right to resist the illegal partition and assignment of 55% of Palestine to a non native colonizing European population. In complete contravention of the Covenant of the League of Nations.

To break the will of the Israeli Jews so that they will sue for peace, the Palestinians must engage in resistance, armed resistance by a people under belligerent is sanctioned under International law.  And, the Israelis, are contravening Article 1. of 1514 (XV), hence the Palestinians are in the right.


*"General Assembly resolution 1514 (XV) of 14 December 1960*

"1. The subjection of peoples to alien subjugation, domination and exploitation constitutes a denial of fundamental human rights, is contrary to the Charter of the United Nations and is an impediment to the promotion of world peace and co-operation.

2. All peoples have the right to self-determination; by virtue of that right they freely determine their political status and freely pursue their economic, social and cultural development.

3. Inadequacy of political, economic, social or educational preparedness should never serve as a pretext for delaying independence.

4. All armed action or repressive measures of all kinds directed against dependent peoples shall cease in order to enable them to exercise peacefully and freely their right to complete independence, and the integrity of their national territory shall be respected."

As with other newer colonial projects, the land will be restored to the native people, eventually.


----------



## Phoenall (Dec 10, 2015)

P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > montelatici,  et al,
> ...








 Yes as it is the act of firing the rockets that is the crime, because they cant be steered and have a tendency to go of course they are seen as illegal weapons.


----------



## Phoenall (Dec 10, 2015)

P F Tinmore said:


> Phoenall said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...







 According to the surrender treaty with the Ottomans it took over most of the Ottoman lands, or do0 you read different history books to everyone else ?

 But lets say you are correct then this means that none of the Islamic nations exist in law as the LoN could not hand the land to them. The ottomans did not negotiate with the arab muslims and grant them the land did they, they negotiated with the British and her allies


----------



## RoccoR (Dec 10, 2015)

montelatici,  et al,

We are straying too far off-topic.



montelatici said:


> 1. There is no international dispute, the conflict is between an occupied population and the occupier.
> 
> 2. Settlements in occupied Palestine are not civilian, they are military citadels which are utilized to facilitate further military conquest.


*(COMMENT)*

That depends on which set of threats and challenges you listen to from the Hostile Arab Palestinian side.  But that is for another discussion.
The settlements are not military in nature.  They are established under the Oslo Accords.  Areas "A" --- "B" --- "C"....



montelatici said:


> You are very confused.
> 
> 1. The Covenant promises the native people, in the case of Palestine the Arabs, the Mandatory's tutelage to enable the native people to assume full sovereignty from provisional sovereignty.
> 
> ...



*The Political History of Palestine under British Administration*
"Later in 1923, a third attempt was made to establish an institution through which the Arab population of Palestine could be brought into cooperation with the government."

You cannot force feed the Arabs of Palestine.  In late 1947 - early 1948, the Arab of Palestine again declined to participate in the establishment of a process leading to self-government.

Now the Hashemites did cooperate with the Allied Powers and the Mandatory.  The were allocated 77% of the territory.  

The solemn oath was carried-out.



montelatici said:


> The Balfour Declaration was inconsistent with the Covenant.  The Zionists were not natives of Palestine.  They were Europeans.
> 
> What is so difficult for you to understand?


*(COMMENT)*

The Arab of Palestine had no right to deny the Jewish immigration rights, or even the establishment of a state.  The territory to which the Mandate applied (Palestine) was in the hands of the Allied Powers... not the Arab of Palestine.

There is absolutely nothing in the Covenant that precludes the Allied Powers from determining the future as stipulated in the 1924 Treaty.

Most Respectfully,
R​


----------



## Phoenall (Dec 10, 2015)

P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore,  et al,
> ...







 When did it become international law then ?

 And who has stopped the arab muslims in Palestine from becoming self governing. They took step one of 3 so why are they holding back on the last two steps ?


----------



## Phoenall (Dec 10, 2015)

P F Tinmore said:


> montelatici said:
> 
> 
> > RoccoR said:
> ...







 WHERE DOES IT SAY THAT


----------



## RoccoR (Dec 10, 2015)

montelatici,  et al,

Just show me where GA/RES/1514(XV) went into force as law?



montelatici said:


> *"General Assembly resolution 1514 (XV) of 14 December 1960*


*(COMMENT)*

You cannot, because it never did.

Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## montelatici (Dec 10, 2015)

RoccoR said:


> montelatici,  et al,
> 
> We are straying too far off-topic.
> 
> ...



The Arabs established several institutions to represent them, the British did not accept any of them, beginning with the Christian-Muslim Arab Association of Palestine in 1921 or 22.

"2. I am to point out in the first place that, while your Delegation is recognised by Mr. Churchill as representing a large section of the Moslem and Christian inhabitants of Palestine, and while the Secretary of State is anxious to discuss his present proposals informally with recognised representatives, such as yourselves, of any important section of the community, *he is not in a position to negotiate officially with you or with any other body which claims to represent the whole or, part of the people of Palestine"
*
The British would not accept any Arab institution nor the many constitutions put forward by the various institutions because all of them requested equal treatment as all other Mandates.

The native people of Palestine had every right to deny the migration of hordes of Jews into the land they were the natives of.  Pursuant to the Covenant of the League of Nations, the arrival of Jewish European hordes contravened the very essence of the Covenant, to wit:

"To those colonies and territories which as a consequence of the late war have ceased to be under the sovereignty of the States which formerly governed them and which are *inhabited by peoples* not yet able to stand by themselves under the strenuous conditions of the modern world, there should be applied the principle that the well-being and development of such peoples* form a sacred trust of civilisation and that securities for the performance of this trust should be embodied in this Covenant."
*
The sacred trust of civilization was intended for the native people, not European colonists!

The Mandatory was required to adhere to the Covenant as stated in the Covenant.  

What is it that you are unable to comprehend?

The settlements are military enclaves with residents armed to the teeth.  They are the Crusader castles of today.

*
*


----------



## P F Tinmore (Dec 10, 2015)

RoccoR said:


> montelatici,  et al,
> 
> Just show me where GA/RES/1514(XV) went into force as law?
> 
> ...


Every article in Resolution 1514 is based on already existing international law.

It merely defines the application of existing law.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Dec 10, 2015)

RoccoR said:


> Challenger,  et al,
> 
> The today is pretty much the same as the law, set down by the Judgment.  The Rome Statutes use the same language although expanded in some sense.
> 
> ...


The Palestinians asserted their rights under law.

Why do you have a problem with that?


----------



## Billo_Really (Dec 10, 2015)

Phoenall said:


> Did you miss this then
> 
> 
> Palestinian armed groups, where they launched attacks close to civilian or protected buildings, unnecessarily exposed the civilian population of Gaza to danger.


Yeah, I noticed that.  But it's a far cry from your claim they committed more war crimes than Israel.


----------



## Billo_Really (Dec 10, 2015)

Phoenall said:


> Neither does Palestine as they are split by politics and religion.


They're split by Zionist, warmongering assholes, who have no problem shooting innocent civilians on one side and a decent, proud population of Arabs, who just want to live free of Israeli tyranny.




Phoenall said:


> No as we are talking about pre 1948 and the land was never surrendered to the arab muslims


The land before 1948, 85% was owned by Arabs, 7% was owned by Jews.

_...land *ownership statistics* from 1945 showed that *Arabs owned more land than Jews in every single district of Palestine*, including Jaffa, where Arabs owned 47 percent of the land while Jews owned 39 percent – and Jaffa boasted the highest percentage of Jewish-owned land of any district. In other districts, Arabs owned an even larger portion of the land. At the extreme other end, for instance, in Ramallah, Arabs owned 99 percent of the land. In the whole of Palestine, *Arabs owned 85 percent of the land, while Jews owned less than 7 percent*, which remained the case up until the time of Israel’s creation._​
The UN Mandate wanted to give over half the land, to a third of the population.

_...the U.N. partition recommendation had called for more than* half of the land of Palestine to be given to the Zionists for their “Jewish State*”._​



Phoenall said:


> Do explain how when the Jews outnumber the Palestinians inside Israel. They only occupy and police the west bank for defensive purposes. The Jews have demonstrated free determination, when will the Palestinian arab muslims ?


When you end the occupation.


----------



## RoccoR (Dec 10, 2015)

P F Tinmore,  et al,





P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > montelatici,  et al,
> ...


*(COMMENT)*

Paragraph 1:
The UN Charter does not mention subjugation or domination.  The Charter does not mention "denial of human rights."

Paragraph 2:
The Charter does mention the "principle of equal rights and self-determination of peoples" in reference to the conditions of economic, social progress and development.  But that has no relationship to sovereignty or decolonization.

Paragraph 3:
The "pretext" or "delay" was not mentioned in the Charter at all; even remotely to the concept of independence.

Paragraph 4:
This is a tricky "prohibition."   This is a domestic issue.  For instance, in the United States, there is no right to secede. (Pledge of Allegiance clearly illustrates through the line “one nation, indivisible.”)  It is what we call a “perpetual union."

Paragraph 5
This is a case where the UN is implying that it has the authority to intervene and demands a sovereignty to transfer powers.

Article 2(7)  Nothing contained in the present Charter shall authorize the United Nations to intervene in matters which are essentially within the domestic jurisdiction of any state or shall require the Members to submit such matters to settlement under the present Charter; but this principle shall not prejudice the application of enforcement measures under Chapter VII.​
Paragraph 6:
This has no requirement.

Paragraph 7:
This paragraph is a demand to observe; however, the Universal Declaration of Human Rights (UDHR) is formally, as a declaration of the UNGA, is not binding on Member States.  While it does have broad international acceptance of the UDHR, over the last 60 years has given its principles some legal status.

"The International Court of Justice (ICJ) has only occasionally referred to the UDHR, usually in dissenting or separate opinions. For example Judge Tanaka’s dissenting opinion in the _South West Africa Cases (Ethiopia v South Africa; Liberia v South Africa) (Second Phase)_ referred to the UDHR as ‘not binding in itself’, but nevertheless ‘evidence of the interpretation and application’ of the human rights clauses in the UN Charter (at 293; see also United Nations Charter, Interpretation of).​Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## RoccoR (Dec 10, 2015)

P F Tinmore,  et al,

I don't have a problem with the Arab Palestinians applying their rights; just as long as they do not deny the very same rights to the authorize immigrants.



P F Tinmore said:


> The Palestinians asserted their rights under law.
> 
> Why do you have a problem with that?


*(COMMENT)*

I don't think that the Palestinians, that constantly advocate for Jihad, death, and terrorist action under the color of freedom fighting and acting as a perpetual victim, have any room to deny the Israelis anything.  Much of the adverse consequences, experienced by the Hostile Arab Palestinians, from the time that the Allied Powers place the territory under the Enemy Occupied Territory Administration until the Mandate terminated, was their fault.  This sums it up:

"The Arabs of Palestine made a solemn declaration before the United Nations, before God and history, that they will never submit or yield to any power going to Palestine to enforce partition. The only way to establish partition is first to wipe them out — man, woman and child."​
Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## montelatici (Dec 10, 2015)

What does the United Nations Charter have to do with international law promulgated after the Charter was signed?


----------



## RoccoR (Dec 10, 2015)

Billo_Really,  et al,

There is no reasonable expectation that the Palestinians will observe that pledge; even if the Israelis were inclined to give it a second chance.



Billo_Really said:


> When you end the occupation.


*(COMMENT)*

It id not work in 2005 when the Israelis unilaterally withdrew, and it will not work with the Palestinians of the West Bank.

Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## montelatici (Dec 10, 2015)

RoccoR said:


> P F Tinmore,  et al,
> 
> I don't have a problem with the Arab Palestinians applying their rights; just as long as they do not deny the very same rights to the authorize immigrants.
> 
> ...



Partition and the assignment of 55% of the land to European colonists contravened the rights accruing to the inhabitants (natives) of the former Turkish territories as under Article 22 of  the Covenant of the League of Nations.  

*"ARTICLE 22.*
To those colonies and territories which as a consequence of the late war have ceased to be under the sovereignty of the States which formerly governed them and which are inhabited by peoples not yet able to stand by themselves under the strenuous conditions of the modern world, there should be applied the principle that the well-being and development of such peoples form a sacred trust of civilisation and that securities for the performance of this trust should be embodied in this Covenant.

The best method of giving practical effect to this principle is that the tutelage of such peoples should be entrusted to advanced nations who by reason of their resources, their experience or their geographical position can best undertake this responsibility, and who are willing to accept it, and that this tutelage should be exercised by them as Mandatories on behalf of the League."


----------



## montelatici (Dec 10, 2015)

RoccoR said:


> Billo_Really,  et al,
> 
> There is no reasonable expectation that the Palestinians will observe that pledge; even if the Israelis were inclined to give it a second chance.
> 
> ...



Israelis never withdrew from anywhere.  Gaza is under the complete control and occupation of Israel.


----------



## Kondor3 (Dec 10, 2015)

Challenger said:


> ...they look uniformed to me...


Correct...

Your Palestinians are, indeed, '_uniform_'...







Always a good day to kill a few dozen or a few score of these slime-balls...

Of course, civilians are going to be hurt and killed, when the IDF flattens an area that these scumbags are haunting...

Purely collateral and unintentional...

Nothing deliberate about attacking war-assets and combatants, and thereby generating unintended civilian casualties...

Don't want the civilian casualties?

Move the war-assets...

Oh... and... move the Neanderthal Nazi wannabes like these panty-waists...


----------



## RoccoR (Dec 10, 2015)

montelatici,  et al,

The League of Nations Covenant does not specifically promise the Arab Palestinians anything.



montelatici said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore,  et al,
> ...


*(COMMENT)*

The Arab Palestinian rejected tutelage three times in the first two years of the Mandate; and several times after that.  But don't try to imply that the Arab Palestinian was promised something it was not.

Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## Kondor3 (Dec 10, 2015)

montelatici said:


> ...What is so difficult for you to understand?


What does this have to do with the topic?

The question at-hand is whether Israel targets civilians, not a one-sided history lesson on matters that are no longer of any consequence whatsoever.


----------



## montelatici (Dec 10, 2015)

RoccoR said:


> montelatici,  et al,
> 
> The League of Nations Covenant does not specifically promise the Arab Palestinians anything.
> 
> ...



You are confused.  

The Palestinians never rejected British protection (the first meaning of tutelage is "protection" as in Latin). They rejected the British plan to cease protecting them by allowing a European colonization of their land.

Article 22 of the Covenant of the League of Nations specifically promises the inhabitants of the former Turkish colonies that they would be granted sovereignty after a period of tutelage.  The inhabitants were the Muslims and Christians.  The Jews were still in Europe. What do you not understand?


"*and which are inhabited* by peoples not yet able to stand by themselves under the strenuous conditions of the modern world, there should be applied the principle that the well-being and development of such peoples form a sacred trust of civilisation and that securities for the performance of this trust should be embodied in this Covenant.....communities formerly belonging to the Turkish Empire have reached a stage of development where their existence as independent nations can be provisionally recognized subject to the rendering of administrative advice and assistance by a Mandatory until such time as they are able to stand alone. "


----------



## theliq (Dec 10, 2015)

Kondor3 said:


> theliq said:
> 
> 
> > ...The Palestinians are under Occupation Kondie,just because you support this unlawful act...
> ...


Kondie,there is one large point that you regrettably omitted friend,the Palestinians are going nowhere,under your summation Israel would have to force the Palestinians out of Gaza and the West Bank........as Zionist Terrorists attempted prior to 1948,you are assuming that all Jews desire your "Final Solution".

People who go on assumptions are usually wrong

Educated Jews worldwide and within Israel do not agree in the current right wing situation perpetuated by that Terrorist Organization The Zionists,which is so admired by some sections of the Jews at present,they see it as totally unfair,stupid and insane.....they feel as I do,that these attempts of ERADICATION will in the end bring destruction of Israel and Jews worldwide in general......do you really think the rest of the world would sit back and allow this to happen,they would not.

The Palestinian are not a "Rag-Tag" People...far from it,as they have one of the highest matriculation rates of University entrance worldwide,extremely innovative and a hard working ethic.This can be clearly seen in countries like Kuwait,Saudi,Emirates and Israel itself,something you should educate yourself of and be mindful of, in the future.

Your time line of peace is in itself ignorant,remembering your ex Prime Minister,Defense Chief Mr Rabin was ASSINATED by  Jews when Peace was close,no I won't have you slanting the truth or implying Guys like Begin and Netandyarho wanted or want peace,these Rabid Zionists Never wanted or want peace.

Yes you maybe powerful now(all enabled with "Aid" money from other people") this manifests itself in your and others like you in arrogance....the Palestinians are entitled to their land(I am Pragmatic enough to know they will never get all their land,and moreover I believe in a two State Solution) It is a shame that of all the people during the centuries it was only the Palestinians that lived in harmony with their Semitic cousins the Jews)

It was Christians in the main that despised the Jews from Spain to Germany,from the Russian Pogroms to "The Beast" in Germany and his henchmen.......but never once have I heard the motely crew on here complaining about these people...Only the Palestinians,Only the Palestinians,why I ask myself,I can only conclude that as a people you carry collective Guilt and have become more Hateful towards Palestinians.

Nothing Closes in life,as you assume,both Palestinians and Jews/Israelis deserve better,the problem is the minority who wield power on both sides,peace is achievable but at present the leadership of both peoples is weak.

Stop perpetuating such negativity Kondie.......the world and life itself is great but you have to want it enough,both Jews and Palestinians deserve a better life....You only have one solution,I have two,Prime Minister Rabin (and Mr Peres) had two as did Arafat.

As I said,don't even imagine Zionists will get away with trying to displace Palestinians from their Rightful Home. steve


----------



## theliq (Dec 10, 2015)

RoccoR said:


> montelatici,  et al,
> 
> The League of Nations Covenant does not specifically promise the Arab Palestinians anything.
> 
> ...


It was Actually Rocco


----------



## P F Tinmore (Dec 10, 2015)

RoccoR said:


> Challenger,  et al,
> 
> The today is pretty much the same as the law, set down by the Judgment.  The Rome Statutes use the same language although expanded in some sense.
> 
> ...


Well, no matter who is being charged, the rule of "military necessity" applies. If it is essential that the will of the Palestinian people be broken in order for them to sue for peace, then that is the justification.​
Whoa, dude. I think you are talking about an illegal activity.

Could you justify that position?


----------



## P F Tinmore (Dec 10, 2015)

RoccoR said:


> montelatici,  et al,
> 
> We are straying too far off-topic.
> 
> ...


The settlements are not military in nature.  They are established under the Oslo Accords.  Areas "A" --- "B" --- "C"....​
The legal rights of the inhabitants of occupied territory cannot be curtailed
by any agreement or other arrangement between the occupying power
and the authorities of the occupied territory. This is intended to prevent
national authorities from being put under pressure to make conces-
sions which might not be in the population’s best interests or weaken
its legal rights.

Similarly, the inhabitants of the occupied territory cannot renounce their
rights under the Fourth Geneva Convention. This again is a safeguard.
It prevents the occupying power from exploiting the vulnerability of the
occupied territory by exerting undue pressure to undermine and weaken
the protection which the law affords.

ICRC service


----------



## P F Tinmore (Dec 10, 2015)

RoccoR said:


> P F Tinmore,  et al,
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The General Assembly,

Mindful of the determination proclaimed by the peoples of the world in the Charter of the United Nations to reaffirm faith in fundamental human rights, in the dignity and worth of the human person, in the equal rights of men and women and of nations large and small and to promote social progress and better standards of life in larger freedom,

Conscious of the need for the creation of conditions of stability and well-being and peaceful and friendly relations based on respect for the principles of equal rights and self-determination of all peoples, and of universal respect for, and observance of, human rights and fundamental freedoms for all without distinction as to race, sex, language or religion,

Recognizing the passionate yearning for freedom in all dependent peoples and the decisive role of such peoples in the attainment of their independence,

A ware of the increasing conflicts resulting from the denial of or impediments in the way of the freedom of such peoples, which constitute a serious threat to world peace,

Considering the important role of the United Nations in assisting the movement for independence in Trust and Non-Self-Governing Territories,

Recognizing that the peoples of the world ardently desire the end of colonialism in all its manifestations,

Convinced that the continued existence of colonialism prevents the development of international economic co-operation, impedes the social, cultural and economic development of dependent peoples and militates against the United Nations ideal of universal peace,

Affirming that peoples may, for their own ends, freely dispose of their natural wealth and resources without prejudice to any obligations arising out of international economic co-operation, based upon the principle of mutual benefit, and international law,

Believing that the process of liberation is irresistible and irreversible and that, in order to avoid serious crises, an end must be put to colonialism and all practices of segregation and discrimination associated therewith,

Welcoming the emergence in recent years of a large number of dependent territories into freedom and independence, and recognizing the increasingly powerful trends towards freedom in such territories which have not yet attained independence,

Convinced that all peoples have an inalienable right to complete freedom, the exercise of their sovereignty and the integrity of their national territory,

Solemnly proclaims the necessity of bringing to a speedy and unconditional end colonialism in all its forms and manifestations;

And to this end Declares that:

The United Nations and Decolonization - Declaration​
Maybe this will help.


----------



## Billo_Really (Dec 11, 2015)

RoccoR said:


> Billo_Really,  et al,
> 
> There is no reasonable expectation that the Palestinians will observe that pledge; even if the Israelis were inclined to give it a second chance.
> 
> ...


I'm sorry, my friend, maintaining sovereignty over the airspace and sea, is not a withdrawal.  How can you possibly say it is a withdrawal, when Palestinian's can't even go fishing in their own territorial waters, without getting shot at? Because of the security buffers, they can't even farm on their own land.  And none of them can leave, without Israeli permission.

Even though troops have been removed, the occupation continues.


----------



## Challenger (Dec 11, 2015)

Kondor3 said:


> Challenger said:
> 
> 
> > ...they look uniformed to me...
> ...



Well that would make the militants easy to spot so there's no reason or justification to destroy whole 
areas populated by civillians then...unless of course, you are a barbarous, neandethal Zionist Israeli that enjoys killing women and children. Precision weapons? Why bother, let's just carpet bomb them, "kill them all, Allah will know his own"


----------



## Challenger (Dec 11, 2015)

RoccoR said:


> If it is essential that the will of the Palestinian people be broken in order for them to sue for peace, then that is the justification.



Point out to me please, when in history that policy has ever worked? 

All bombardment does is kill people and strengthen the will of the survivors to resist further. If Zionist Isreal truely ever wanted peace, it would have torn the razor wire down and opened up the border crossings and used it's influence with the West to pump in investment funds from various sources to build up the Gazan economy. Well fed, comfortable people don't normally want to fire rockets anywhere and having much to lose, are just as likely to turn on their more militant groups themselves. Give them hope, not just keep on piling on more reasons for them to hate. Then Zionist Israel might get the peace they profess to want so badly...I won't hold my breath waiting.


----------



## Phoenall (Dec 11, 2015)

P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > montelatici,  et al,
> ...







 Then you will be able to itemise them and the dates they were entered into international law.    You will find that most are only recommendations and the few that did become international law did so after December 1960.

 ONCE AGAIN YOU TRY AND ENFORCE INTERNATIONAL RETROSPECTIVELY WHEN IT SUITS YOUR POV


----------



## Phoenall (Dec 11, 2015)

P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > Challenger,  et al,
> ...








 What law was that then, and when did it become law. You cant apply laws retrospectively because they agree with your POV, unless you agree to the same laws being used in Israel's favour.


----------



## Kondor3 (Dec 11, 2015)

Challenger said:


> ...Well that would make the militants easy to spot so there's no reason or justification to destroy whole
> areas populated by civillians then...


Incorrect. Enemy combatants who embed themselves amongst civilian populations are legitimate military targets. Just ask the RAF or the US Army Air Force.



> ...just carpet bomb them, "kill them all, Allah will know his own"


Tempting, but inhumane. Far better to nudge them out, unintentionally losing a (relative) few, so that the vast majority may live, elsewhere.


----------



## Phoenall (Dec 11, 2015)

Billo_Really said:


> Phoenall said:
> 
> 
> > Did you miss this then
> ...







 Then explain why Ban Ki Moon stated that every rocket fired from gaza is a war crime and the hamas terrorists fired over 2000 rockets at Israel before and during operation Cast Lead ? Now find 2000 war crimes by Israel for the same period, and they must be claimed by the UN as war crimes to count.


----------



## Phoenall (Dec 11, 2015)

Billo_Really said:


> Phoenall said:
> 
> 
> > Neither does Palestine as they are split by politics and religion.
> ...







 Then let them negotiate in good faith mutual borders and peaceful existence. But they fight amongst themselves so much that they anyone capable of entering into negotiations. Nothing at all to do with Israel or the Jews as these are internal matters of power grabs and fraud.

 That will not wash as it is from a novel printed on behalf of a committee of anti Jew paid for arab muslim stooges. Shown to monte everytime he posted it which is why he put me on ignore.

 After the LoN had given 78% of the land to the same arab muslims as their national home. The UN did not have the authority to change existing international law in this respect and should have told the arab muslims to either leave and go to Jordan with the relocation package offered or stay as full citizens of the Jewish National Home living peacefully side by side with the Jews. The arab muslims chose violence, war and terrorism instead, so the UN should have put a multinational force in to evict the arab muslims.



 I cant end the occupation any more than I can say why you hate the Jews. But I can say stop the violence, terrorism and belligerence as demanded by the UN charter and the occupation will be lifted in stages. But after the debacle of gaza in 2005 is it any wonder that the decent civilised people of the world do not trust the Palestinians to keep their word.


----------



## Phoenall (Dec 11, 2015)

montelatici said:


> What does the United Nations Charter have to do with international law promulgated after the Charter was signed?








 Because it came first and was entered into international law. As you are quick to point out a law cant change the already existing laws


----------



## Phoenall (Dec 11, 2015)

montelatici said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore,  et al,
> ...







 So what state governed the arab muslims in Palestine then ?  Don't forget they fought on the side of the Ottomans and so lost when they did. This resulted in them losing any rights they had under Ottoman rule. The same arab muslims have repeatedly proven that they are incapable of self determination and capable of standing on their own feet


----------



## Phoenall (Dec 11, 2015)

montelatici said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > Billo_Really,  et al,
> ...






 Not according to the Geneva conventions and International law. For that they have to have a military presence in gaza that exerts complete control of all the citizens and land. This shown to not be the case by the firing of illegal rockets that amount to war crimes, and the digging of terror tunnels into Israel.


----------



## Phoenall (Dec 11, 2015)

Challenger said:


> Kondor3 said:
> 
> 
> > Challenger said:
> ...







 Or you are not able to see the people to determine what they are wearing because you are too far away. The simple answer is to use the 50% of gaza that is uninhabited open land to engage in acts of war and war crimes


----------



## Phoenall (Dec 11, 2015)

Challenger said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > If it is essential that the will of the Palestinian people be broken in order for them to sue for peace, then that is the justification.
> ...








 Japan 1945 when the first nuclear weapons were used, or Germany between 1943 and 1945 when they where pulverised into submission and driven back by the allies.


----------



## Phoenall (Dec 11, 2015)

montelatici said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > montelatici,  et al,
> ...








 When did it become Palestinian land then under International law. What treaty granted the arab muslims sovereignty over the land owned and worked by the Jews. As far as treaties go they lost all rights to the land once the Ottomans were defeated and signed away the laqnd to the British and her allies.

The same international law that granted 22% of the land as the Jewish national home also granted 78% as the Palestinian national home


----------



## Phoenall (Dec 11, 2015)

P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > Challenger,  et al,
> ...






 Very easy as this is exactly what the muslims are doing today all over the world. So while you turn a blind eye to this you are just showing your Jew hatred and Nazism when you attack Israel as you are.


----------



## Phoenall (Dec 11, 2015)

P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > montelatici,  et al,
> ...








 And what does it say about reclaiming land stolen by force in 1949 by the Palestinian forces, because that is where the settlements are built on Jewish owned land


----------



## Phoenall (Dec 11, 2015)

P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore,  et al,
> ...








 A recommendation dated 1960 has no relevance to the ongoing war in Palestine. If it did then it would apply to the colonialism of the arab muslims and the UN would act to evict them back to Syria and Egypt. But expect the more recent international laws to be used retrospectively and you could find them being used against yourself


----------



## Phoenall (Dec 11, 2015)

Billo_Really said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > Billo_Really,  et al,
> ...







 They could up until 2007 when the blockade was placed because of ongoing illegal rockets and terrorism. It must have worked because the hamas terrorists have been beaten every time by a lack of munitions.


----------



## Rehmani (Dec 11, 2015)

Kondor3 said:


> Challenger said:
> 
> 
> > ...they look uniformed to me...
> ...


Wrong.... When Jews pushed Palestinian into camps to grab their country, then jews can enter in these camps as well to avoid civilian deaths. But mostly jew soldiers hired from overseas, and they don't want dual fight because they scare and they prefer to kill innocent civilian.


----------



## Rehmani (Dec 11, 2015)

Hollie said:


> Challenger said:
> 
> 
> > Roudy said:
> ...


Then why not Israel army enter into these camps and catch freedom fighter instead kill innocent civilian because jew army don't want dual fight because they scare.


----------



## Rehmani (Dec 11, 2015)

Challenger said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Rehmani said:
> ...


But they can be in Lebanon or in Jordon not in Gaza. Still sound like empty hand as compare to modern jews army. To me if Israelis are not terrorist then they should enter in Gaza and the freedom fighter instead kill civilian cowardly. But hired army from overseas scared to fight face to face. And preferred to kill innocent civilian.


----------



## Rehmani (Dec 11, 2015)

Challenger said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Rehmani said:
> ...


But they can be in Lebanon or in Jordon not in Gaza. Still sound like empty hand as compare to modern jews army. To me if Israelis are not terrorist then they should enter in Gaza and the freedom fighter instead kill civilian cowardly. But hired army from overseas scared to fight face to face. And preferred to kill innocent civilian.


----------



## Kondor3 (Dec 11, 2015)

Rehmani said:


> Kondor3 said:
> 
> 
> > Challenger said:
> ...


1. ask for a refund (unless, of course, it was free at your local madrassa), for your English-as-a-Second-Language class - it did not succeed.

2. even through the formidable language barrier, you manifest as clinically paranoid.

I do not believe you to be sane.

Your simple-minded Automatic Gainsay on the subject does nothing to advance the conversation.

When your mind becomes more calm, perhaps you can do some research, and serve up prima facie evidence that the State of Israel routinely, and as matter of policy and regular practice, and on a substantive scale, target civilians, instead of legitimate military targets.

Consult your Arabic-English translation dictionary to help you with the Big Words.


----------



## Rehmani (Dec 11, 2015)

Phoenall said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > RoccoR said:
> ...


First then why jew want to grab 78% instead stuck in Telaviv. Second Palestinian are indigenous and they ruled holy land for 900 years without break and during this 900 years rule they accommodate jews too others wise jews were not allowed in holy land.


----------



## Rehmani (Dec 11, 2015)

Roudy said:


> Rehmani said:
> 
> 
> > Kondor3 said:
> ...


Very simple. As we all know that jews animal invade Palestine by force with help of modern war machine and pushed palestinian into camps. And now they don't want enter in camps because jew know that in camp they have to fight face to face they might get killed, this is one reason and second reason jew animal want to kill as many as civilian so no one left behind to claim over holy land means genocide. Dumb why don't you understand you people means jews are mass murderer terrorist.


----------



## Rehmani (Dec 11, 2015)

Roudy said:


> Rehmani said:
> 
> 
> > Roudy said:
> ...


Israel don't want to give them sovereign rights because are paranoid and  jew know that then they will be in uniform with modern machine. Paranoid jew don't want to take any risk but risk becoming greater for jew as time is passing.


----------



## Rehmani (Dec 11, 2015)

P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore,  et al,
> ...


Means Israelis thieves are making noise after stealing land of palestine.


----------



## Rehmani (Dec 11, 2015)

RoccoR said:


> P F Tinmore,  et al,
> 
> And just where does it say that the Arab has the right of insurrection or to steal the sovereignty of the territory of another.
> 
> ...


Defend their illegal sovereignty with the help of super powers and their modern war machine. Means Jew thieves are making noise that the indigenous palestinian stealing their own land from the jew thieves.


----------



## Rehmani (Dec 11, 2015)

Phoenall said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > RoccoR said:
> ...


Look jew, you can not change many millennium old indigenous palestinian rights because of falls propaganda.


----------



## Rehmani (Dec 11, 2015)

Phoenall said:


> Challenger said:
> 
> 
> > RoccoR said:
> ...


Jew, First it is fact that jew create israel by killing pushing palestinian in to camps by using war powers and their modern war machine and still jew are killing innocent palestinian. And whole world know the tricky and bloody creation of Israel over the sovereign land of Palestine.


----------



## Rehmani (Dec 11, 2015)

Phoenall said:


> Rehmani said:
> 
> 
> > Kondor3 said:
> ...


Look jew you are lying again.


----------



## Rehmani (Dec 11, 2015)

RoccoR said:


> Challenger,  et al,
> 
> Wrong.
> 
> ...


Jew you are wrong, Israel is created illegally by force and now by falls propaganda jew are trying to change theses historical facts, as you one of many jews.


----------



## RoccoR (Dec 11, 2015)

montelatici,  et al,

And therein rests the backbone of the problem.



montelatici said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > Billo_Really,  et al,
> ...


*(COMMENT)*

In 2005, there was no Naval Blockade.  Border crossings were still operational and comparatively open, given that Palestinians were still  running attacks.  The Airspace was under Israeli control simply because it was beyond the capability of the Palestinians given the dynamics of a 21st Century Air Traffic Control Zone and Air Defense Zone requires.

In a rough, truncated thumbnail view, this is how the externals saw the Palestinians as we approached the 21st Century:

The Palestinians were developing a network of terrorist organizations.  The oldest of the groups is the PLO, stared in 1964.  The PLO set the primer for violence in the movements to follow.  Immediately after the Six Day War in 1967, the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine (PFLP) was founded; and the 1968 splinter group known as the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine – General Command (PFLP-GC).  In 1969, the Popular Democratic Front for the Liberation of Palestine (PDFLP) was founded when it split from the PFLP.  In 1979, Islamic fundamentals form a the Palestinian Islamic Jihad; and in 1988 the Islamic Resistance Movement emerged.   In the year 2000, the PLO formed a series of Fatah related terrorist cells operating against Israeli military and civilian settlers in the West Bank, Gaza Strip, and Jerusalem; known as the Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades; in the same year the Popular Resistance Committee (PRC) emerged and became active in the Gaza Strip.

The most significant of the groups where, of course, the PLO and the PFLP.

The PLO set the general content that the long-term organization needed.

Fatah:  The political face as a Palestinian political party on matters of national liberation.
Tanzim:  A specialized Militia for Fatah; to offset the Palestinian Islamism.
Force 17:  Was a failed attempt to establish an Intelligence Service for Fatah.
Abu Nidal:  A strong-armed terrorist set of cells that splintered off of Fatah.
The PFLP was/is a bit more cerebral.  It was violence with an agenda.

It promoted a "People's War."  (From 1968 to 1984, under the leadership of George Habash, it was the most violent and active of the Palestinian terrorist groups.) 

The purpose of the war was to FORCE a "Peaceful Solution."
The "Revolutionary Theory"  --- Palestinian National Movement; destroying Israel outright. (No two-state solution.)
The Revolution should include the reformation of Jordan.  (The PFLP has a Jordanian Branch.)
All this goes to establish a pattern of criminal behavior, that the Hostile Arab Palestinian rejects as terrorism because they promote themselves as "freedom Fights."  The general HoAP rejects the notion that: "Nothing can justify terrorism — ever.  No grievance, no goal, no cause can excuse terrorist acts.  The HoAP see there cause as an exception.  They have openly rejected the concept that:  All disputes, including their dispute, should be addressed by peaceful means in such a manner that international peace and security are not endangered.

THUS, this establishes the reasoning for the continuation of the HoAP containment (not occupation) in the territories.  Let loose, the International Community would be libel for the death and destruction that the HoAP would visit upon the region; endangering the peace and security.

Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## Rehmani (Dec 11, 2015)

Kondor3 said:


> theliq said:
> 
> 
> > ...The Palestinians are under Occupation Kondie,just because you support this unlawful act...
> ...


As you said you are not jew means you are a jew because that is how jew practice, they never identified themselves and use others ID. which is wrong they should use their own ID. And as you said that jews are very close to their generational goal, they won't give up now. If jew take my advise and follow my signature comments would be better off otherwise jews have to start again as jews history full of difficult surprises. Jew are chasing a target which base on falls story and because of that jew are behaving like evil means keep losing and keep coming and this is not smart human way so my advise to jew behave like human not evil. Read my signature comments Please and make world peace full place.


----------



## Roudy (Dec 11, 2015)

Rehmani said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> > Challenger said:
> ...



What camps?  Muslims are cowards that don't fight armies or wear uniforms.  They are too busy hiding behind women and children. Actually anytime Israeli soldiers came marching in, the pussies fled.  Arabs / Muslims have gotten their asses kicked so much, they don't fight in armies any longer.  The only way they fight is as terrorists targeting innocent civilians.  That's basically the Islamic holy fighter in a nutshell, cowards and savages.


----------



## Roudy (Dec 11, 2015)

Rehmani said:


> Kondor3 said:
> 
> 
> > theliq said:
> ...



You think the Palestinians are winning?  Ha ha ha.


----------



## Roudy (Dec 11, 2015)

Rehmani said:


> Phoenall said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...


Palestinians ruled the land for 900 years?!  OMG.  Can you show us?

Facts are they didn't even rule for even one month.  True story.


----------



## Roudy (Dec 11, 2015)

Rehmani said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > Challenger,  et al,
> ...



I love it, everybody who doesn't agree or proves otherwise is immediately attacked as "you Jew".  Now you understand what it's like living as a minority among these Neanderthal savages.


----------



## Roudy (Dec 11, 2015)

Rehmani said:


> Kondor3 said:
> 
> 
> > theliq said:
> ...



"Jew Jew Jew Jew.... Jews should wear ID.  Jews are evil.  Jews will suffer. Jew should behave like humans."

Another psychotic Muslim looser obsessed with Jews.  Anybody who thinks the Israel / Palestine conflict has nothing to do with Islamic hatred and intolerance of non Muslims is sadly mistaken.


----------



## RoccoR (Dec 11, 2015)

Rehmani,  et al,

Not correct.  I cannot envision how you even come to that conclusion.



Rehmani said:


> Jew you are wrong, Israel is created illegally by force and now by falls propaganda jew are trying to change theses historical facts, as you one of many jews.


*(OBSERVATION)*

QUOTE:  UN Palestine Commission:  During today's brief meeting, Dr. Eduardo Morgan (Panama) said that this resolution of the Assembly merely "relieves responsibility. The Commission has not been dissolved. In fact the resolution of last November 29 has been implemented."  _*SOURCE:*_ UN PR PAL/169  17 May 1948​The Resolution is, of course:  
11/29/1947 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


A/RES/181(II) Palestine plan of partition with economic union - General Assembly resolution 181

*(COMMENT)*

The State of Israel was created peacefully, pursuant to the "Steps Preparatory to Independence" recommended by the General Assembly.  The issue of force is addressed so:

"Powerful Arab interests, both inside and outside Palestine, are defying the resolution of the General Assembly and are engaged in a deliberate effort to alter by force the settlement envisaged therein."  SOURCE:  A/AC.21/9  S/676  16 February 1948​
QUOTE:  US DoS, Office of the Historian:  Home › Milestones › 1945–1952 › The Arab-Israeli War of 1948
The United Nations resolution sparked conflict between Jewish and Arab groups within Palestine. Fighting began with attacks by irregular bands of Palestinian Arabs attached to local units of the Arab Liberation Army composed of volunteers from Palestine and neighboring Arab countries. These groups launched their attacks against Jewish cities, settlements, and armed forces. The Jewish forces were composed of the Haganah, the underground militia of the Jewish community in Palestine, and two small irregular groups, the Irgun, and LEHI. The goal of the Arabs was initially to block the Partition Resolution and to prevent the establishment of the Jewish state. The Jews, on the other hand, hoped to gain control over the territory allotted to them under the Partition Plan.

After Israel declared its independence on May 14, 1948, the fighting intensified with other Arab forces joining the Palestinian Arabs in attacking territory in the former Palestinian mandate. On the eve of May 14, the Arabs launched an air attack on Tel Aviv, which the Israelis resisted.  END QUOTE

The Arab Palestinians opened hostilities on the adoption of the 29 November 1947 Resolution. 

Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## Rehmani (Dec 11, 2015)

Kondor3 said:


> Rehmani said:
> 
> 
> > Kondor3 said:
> ...


Look Jew that is how you are. When you don't have answer, you become personal instead face the truth that israel use hired soldiers.


----------



## Rehmani (Dec 11, 2015)

Kondor3 said:


> Rehmani said:
> 
> 
> > Kondor3 said:
> ...


Look Jew that is how you are. When you don't have answer, you become personal instead face the truth that israel use hired soldiers.


----------



## Rehmani (Dec 11, 2015)

Kondor3 said:


> Challenger said:
> 
> 
> > ...they look uniformed to me...
> ...


Well then enter into camps and fight against freedom fighter don'e kill innocent people. But they can not they are scared. Because hired soldiers not paid good enough to sacrifice thier lives for illegal invasion.


----------



## RoccoR (Dec 11, 2015)

Rehmani,  et al,

I agree with you.  You cannot change history.



Rehmani said:


> Look jew, you can not change many millennium old indigenous palestinian rights because of falls propaganda.


*(OBSERVATION)*

For nearly 800 years, the Sultan of the Ottoman Empire was the sovereign power over the territory in question.  The sovereign authority actually ended in 1918 with the Armistice of Mudros (Article 16).  Article 132 of the Treaty of Sevres, also was just a clear; But then again, the Treaty of Lausanne addressed the final say: 

The Armistice of Mudros, which was concluded on October 30, 1918
16. Surrender of all garrisons in Hejaz, Assir, Yemen, Syria, and Mesopotamia to the nearest Allied commander; and the withdrawal of troops from Cilicia, except those necessary to maintain order, as will be determined under Clause 5.

ARTICLE 132, Treaty of Sevres
Outside her frontiers as fixed by the present Treaty Turkey hereby renounces in favour of the Principal Allied Powers all rights and title which she could claim on any ground over or concerning any territories outside Europe which are not otherwise disposed of by the present Treaty.

Turkey undertakes to recognise and conform to the measures which may be taken now or in the future by the Principal Allied Powers, in agreement where necessary with third Powers, in order to carry the above stipulation into effect.

Article 16, Treaty of Lausanne:
Turkey hereby renounces all rights and title whatsoever over or respecting the territories situated outside the frontiers laid down in the present Treaty and the islands other than those over which her sovereignty is recognised by the said Treaty, the future of these territories and islands being settled or to be settled by the parties concerned.

The provisions of the present Article do not prejudice any special arrangements arising from neighborly relations which have been or may be concluded between Turkey and any limitrophe countries.

*(COMMENT)*

Now please notice that the Lausanne say two very important things:

Turkey renounces all rights and title ---
Turkey recognized by Treaty, that the future of these territories are being settled by the Allied Powers _(parties to the treaty)_.
There can be no objection that the Allied Powers, on the effective date of the Treaty _(which comes after the LoN Covenant)_, has the necessary authority to handle the territories any way it wanted.   

You cannot change this history either.  The territory was surrendered to the Allied Powers; and not to the Arabs of the Palestine; no matter what the Covenant said.  The Covenant was written in 1919 and has no reach into _(legal effect upon)_ a treaty written in 1924, by the same authors.

Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## montelatici (Dec 11, 2015)

RoccoR said:


> montelatici,  et al,
> 
> And therein rests the backbone of the problem.
> 
> ...



You are confused.  Israel never released control of any border, air space or territorial sea of Gaza. Furthermore, Israel maintained "no-go" areas throughout Gaza after the settlers were removed.

There has never been a time when Gaza was not under a de-facto blockade by Israel.

The  Vicious Israeli Jew Occupier has demonstrated itself that peaceful approaches only result in the occupation of more and more land within Palestine and that armed struggle, making the presence of the ViJO within Palestine  as uncomfortable and as expensive  as possible is the only way that the Palestinians will ever achieve independence or enfranchisement.

The Palestinians have, to their credit, limited the violence in their armed struggle against the colonial power when compared to earlier national liberation movements such as the Algerian FLN, the South African ANC etc. 

The ViJO have been directly responsible for a great part of the war and mayhem in the region since their arrival from Europe. Indirectly, Israel as a western colony in the Middle East, supported financially and politically by the West,  constantly in conflict with the native people of the region, is one of the causes of Arab and Muslim resentment vis-a-vis the West and one of the recruitment tools for Islamist causes.


----------



## montelatici (Dec 11, 2015)

RoccoR said:


> Rehmani,  et al,
> 
> I agree with you.  You cannot change history.
> 
> ...



The Treaty of Lausanne does not supersede The Covenant of the League of Nations, nor is it in conflict.  The Covenant regulates how the Allied Powers, members of the League of Nations, agreed to administer the former Turkish territories.

Stop being silly.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Dec 11, 2015)

RoccoR said:


> montelatici,  et al,
> 
> And therein rests the backbone of the problem.
> 
> ...


They have openly rejected the concept that: All disputes, including their dispute, should be addressed by peaceful means in such a manner that international peace and security are not endangered.​
What would you suggest that would work?


----------



## RoccoR (Dec 11, 2015)

Rehmani,  et al,

Again, Israeli's do not target civilians (ever).  It can sometimes be the case that civilians are casualties do to proximity of military targets; but Israel does not target civilians.



Rehmani said:


> Well then enter into camps and fight against freedom fighter don'e kill innocent people. But they can not they are scared. Because hired soldiers not paid good enough to sacrifice thier lives for illegal invasion.


*(COMMENT)*

I'm not sure I totally understand this.  BUT, ---- remember that no Israeli entangled, relegated or incarcerated any Arab Palestinians into a UNRWA Refugee Camps.  Ever single Refugee Camp in the West Bank and Gaza Strip emerged under total Arab Administration:  All of them under either Egyptian Rule or Jordanian Rule between 1949 and 1953; except for two:  The first Camp in 1948 and the last camp in 1965.  Essentially the same can be said for the Refugee Camps in Lebanon, Syria and Jordan. 

Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## montelatici (Dec 11, 2015)

RoccoR said:


> Rehmani,  et al,
> 
> Again, Israeli's do not target civilians (ever).  It can sometimes be the case that civilians are casualties do to proximity of military targets; but Israel does not target civilians.
> 
> ...



Of course Israel targets civilians, it has been known for quite some time.

"GENEVA, March 23 United Nations investigators said on Monday Israel violated a range of human rights during its invasion of Gaza, *including targeting civilians* and using a child as a human shield."

U.N. reports say Israel targeted civilians in Gaza

Of course the Israelis drove the Palestinians to refugee camps, they expelled them from their lands in the illegally established Jewish partition of Palestine.


----------



## Roudy (Dec 11, 2015)

Of course Israel doesn't intentionally target civilians.  To do that they would have to be Palestinian or at least Muslim.  

Palestinians Israeli civilians while hiding behind their own, and when Israelis strike back, the savages complain about civilian casualties. Israel cannot be responsible when the terrorist animals don't even care about their own civilians.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Dec 11, 2015)

RoccoR said:


> montelatici,  et al,
> 
> And therein rests the backbone of the problem.
> 
> ...


In 2005, there was no Naval Blockade. Border crossings were still operational and comparatively open,...​
Load of crap, Rocco.

Relevant info @ 9:10


----------



## Phoenall (Dec 11, 2015)

Rehmani said:


> Kondor3 said:
> 
> 
> > Challenger said:
> ...







 The camps were made by Egypt, Jordan, Syria, Iraq, Iran and Lebanon in 1948. In 1967 the Jews liberated the camps in parts of Egypt and Jordan. In 1970 the forces of Jordan fired on unarmed Palestinian civilians killing as many as 50,000 who were behind barbed wire fences. Not a Jew in sight just two different factions of Palestinians. So as you see historical evidence shows that it is Palestinians that target civilians not Israel


----------



## Phoenall (Dec 11, 2015)

Rehmani said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> > Challenger said:
> ...






 Because that would be against international law as they have peace treaties with Egypt and Jordan. That is where the camps are not in palestine


----------



## Phoenall (Dec 11, 2015)

Rehmani said:


> Challenger said:
> 
> 
> > Roudy said:
> ...






 LIAR


----------



## Phoenall (Dec 11, 2015)

P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > montelatici,  et al,
> ...






 Once again Islamic propaganda that has never been substantiated from another source.


----------



## RoccoR (Dec 11, 2015)

montelatici,  et al,

Oh, your just trying to draw sympathy with incomplete or disinformation.



montelatici said:


> Israel never released control of any border, air space or territorial sea of Gaza. Furthermore, Israel maintained "no-go" areas throughout Gaza after the settlers were removed.
> 
> There has never been a time when Gaza was not under a de-facto blockade by Israel.


*(COMMENT)*

Let's discuss the easy one first.  The Naval Blockade:



As you can see, the naval blockade  did not start until 5pm on 3 JAN 09.  That is 3 years after the disengagement from Gaza --- OR --- 7316 Since Israel withdrew from the Gaza Strip, which ever way you prefer to look at it.  The blockade was a response to the security problem demonstrated by the Palestinians.

The airspace is another issue.  The Palestinians have no approved international airport, control tower, or control zone capable RADAR or the HF/VHF communications to effect control.  The Yasser Arafat International Airport and the Air Strip at Gush Katif, are currently not operating.   Since the Gaza Strip has no law enforcement authority that is internationally accredited,   There is no reason to believe that  In 2000, a number of decisions were made, fearing that such airports would become ports of entry for arms and Palestinian militants living abroad, and hostile movements of threat No-Fly personalities.  After 9/11, terrorist weaponization of commercial airlines became and issue.  Given the sheer number of terrorist organizations and personalities in the Territories, the likelihood that any airport certification or airline accreditation would be considered.  Similarly, the Atarot Airport has been closed to civilian traffic since the breakout of the Second Intifada in 2001.  There is no Palestinian air control.

The borders are what they are.  This border arrangement is the very same for any other country.  While the Palestinian side of the border will permit travel through, the Israeli and Egyptians control entry.  This not against any law.  And it certainly does not violate the UN Charter, since it does not interfere in domestic matters.

The tightening of containment is simply a reasonable and prudent measure to protect the safety of innocent civilians outside Palestinian Sovereignty.

Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## Hollie (Dec 11, 2015)

P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > montelatici,  et al,
> ...


Mullah TV?

Don't embarrass yourself with such tripe. You know with certainty that anything coming out of the Iranian Mullocracy is going to have a predetermined agenda.


----------



## montelatici (Dec 11, 2015)

Israel never ceased to control access to Gaza territorial waters.
Israel never ceased to control access to Palestinian air space.
This combined with control of Gaza land borders with third countries (through agreements and/or threats of aid elimination) makes it a fact that a de facto blockade has always been in place.

The Palestinians have every right to use any means to cause a lifting of the blockade.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Dec 11, 2015)

Phoenall said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > RoccoR said:
> ...


Laila El Haddad does not do Islamic propaganda.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Dec 11, 2015)

Hollie said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > RoccoR said:
> ...


Like Iran is going to tell Laila El Haddad what to say.

*Not!*


----------



## RoccoR (Dec 11, 2015)

"montelatici,  et al,

I just finished reading this 2009 Report: Children and armed conflict A/63/785-S/2009/158 26 March 2009



montelatici said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > Rehmani,  et al,
> ...


*(COMMENT)*

There were 19 other countries mentioned in this report.  This media report chose to focus on Israel.  What the report actually said was:



			
				Report Children and Armed Conflict A/63/85-S/2009/158 said:
			
		

> 85. Four Israeli children were killed by a Palestinian gunman in an attack on a Jewish seminary in West Jerusalem. In addition, 15 Israeli children were injured, mainly as a result of rockets fired from the Gaza Strip towards Israel and stone throwing.
> 
> 86. While there have been reported incidents of children being trained and/or used by Palestinian militant groups in Gaza, community members are reluctant to provide
> information on cases of children used by armed forces or armed groups for fear of reprisals. Significant progress has been made towards the implementation of an informal monitoring system on child rights violations.
> ...



I'm not sure who wrote this report, but Paragraph 88 gave me a chuckle.  Here is what a Prisoner Escort Instructor says:



			
				Klugie's Correctional Corner Best practice for prisoner escort said:
			
		

> (Police One) Stay close to the prisoner. Remember to walk behind the prisoner and adopt a “hands on” approach to escorting a prisoner in order to avoid attempts by the prisoner to assault you, flee from you, or fall down (which can lead to injuries to the prisoner and a “beef” for you).
> 
> 
> > As I grew in the rank and rose to the rank of superior police officer (SPO), grew into management rank, even when when I served the Force as an instructor in the Police College, I always tell my students and my colleagues that on no account should they be *in front* of a prisoner. In fact, I tell every police officer that they should NEVER also be beside a prisoner because a strong and stubborn prisoner can push away a police officer who is escorting him side by side, and escape.



I think that anyone who has ever made an arrest knows that the prisoner always walks in front, until you decide to release.

Most Respectfully,
R​


----------



## RoccoR (Dec 11, 2015)

montelatici,  et al,

What can I say?



montelatici said:


> Israel never ceased to control access to Gaza territorial waters.
> Israel never ceased to control access to Palestinian air space.
> This combined with control of Gaza land borders with third countries (through agreements and/or threats of aid elimination) makes it a fact that a de facto blockade has always been in place.
> 
> The Palestinians have every right to use any means to cause a lifting of the blockade.


*(COMMENT)*

The blockade did not start until 2009.

The Control Tower, RADAR and runway was not destroyed until 2000.

Borders for every nation are a point of optional control.

You simply cannot change the history or the sovereignty.

Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## RoccoR (Dec 11, 2015)

montelatici, et al,

Oh but it did.  In legal parlance the "last word" is the governing word.



montelatici said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > Rehmani,  et al,
> ...


*(COMMENT)*

How the Allied Powers decided is written in the Order in Council of the League, and the Mandate.  There is nothing in the Covenant that "SPECIFICALLY" addresses either an Allied Power, future treaties, or Palestine in particular.  The Covenant says "Certain communities formerly belonging to the Turkish Empire," ---  the phrase "certain communities" does not mean (necessarily) all communities.  It merely implies more than one.  And the Independence of Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, and Iraq would fully that requirement. 

 In fact, the Covenant sets no deadlines, and the Covenant only uses the words "independence" (Art 10) and "Sovereignty" (Art 22(1)) once.  And both causes it applies to a party or parties other than those of Palestine.  And the Covenant absolutely does not promise any country "sovereignty" or "independence."  The phrase says "stand alone;" --- "as they are able to stand alone."

The problem with the Hostile Arab Palestinian is that they always wanted to decide in a Trial by Combat.  And when defeated, they whine about how poorly they were treated.  When it was more accurate to speak of it in terms of how arrogant they were.

Rewrite history all you want.  But it is not likely that you will achieve the desired results.

Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## montelatici (Dec 11, 2015)

1. Israel has always controlled air space, territorial sea and land borders of Gaza.  Gaza has always been blockaded either de jure or de facto.
2. Israel controlled flight plans into and out of the airport.  
3. Israel/U.S. insistence that Egypt participate in the blockade or lose U.S. military aid completes the de facto blockade.
4. Sovereignty which was to accrue to the inhabitants of Palestine when the Covenant of the League of Nations was signed was transferred to European colonists in 1948 instead. Of course you can change sovereignty, even if illegally.


----------



## montelatici (Dec 11, 2015)

RoccoR said:


> montelatici, et al,
> 
> Oh but it did.  In legal parlance the "last word" is the governing word.
> 
> ...



It doesn't matter if you erroneously consider Palestine not one of the former Turkish territories (which it was) that received provisional statehood.  Even if you place Palestine among the other territories, the inhabitants of all the other territories were to receive independence eventually, like Namibia (then called German West Africa I believe). 

It is you that are trying to rewrite history.  The Covenant of the League of Nations did not contemplate, as you imply,  the transfer of Europeans to the former Turkish Territories, the removal of the native inhabitants and the establishment of a colony and then a state for said Europeans.  Which is what happened.


----------



## Phoenall (Dec 12, 2015)

montelatici said:


> Israel never ceased to control access to Gaza territorial waters.
> Israel never ceased to control access to Palestinian air space.
> This combined with control of Gaza land borders with third countries (through agreements and/or threats of aid elimination) makes it a fact that a de facto blockade has always been in place.
> 
> The Palestinians have every right to use any means to cause a lifting of the blockade.








No they don't they have to abide by IHL and the Geneva conventions, failure to do so means they are terrorists and war criminals. This means that under IHL they are all collectively valid military targets, don't like the law then pester your politicians to change them


----------



## Phoenall (Dec 12, 2015)

P F Tinmore said:


> Phoenall said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...







 Says who ?


----------



## Phoenall (Dec 12, 2015)

P F Tinmore said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...






 Says who ?


----------



## Phoenall (Dec 12, 2015)

montelatici said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > montelatici, et al,
> ...







 And which international laws of the time were breached ?


----------



## P F Tinmore (Dec 12, 2015)

Phoenall said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Phoenall said:
> ...


You are making the claim. Post something she said that is Islamic propaganda.


----------



## Rehmani (Dec 12, 2015)

Phoenall said:


> montelatici said:
> 
> 
> > RoccoR said:
> ...


please jew accept the facts, as Monteletici is right and make the world peace full.


----------



## Rehmani (Dec 12, 2015)

RoccoR said:


> montelatici, et al,
> 
> Oh but it did.  In legal parlance the "last word" is the governing word.
> 
> ...


As mostly jew on the Board trying to rewrite history means changing facts as suit to jew, I agreed with Montelatici.


----------



## Rehmani (Dec 12, 2015)

RoccoR said:


> "montelatici,  et al,
> 
> I just finished reading this 2009 Report: Children and armed conflict A/63/785-S/2009/158 26 March 2009
> 
> ...


As jew are trying hard to change facts and figure and grab the land of Palestine. They won't success full.


----------



## Rehmani (Dec 12, 2015)

Phoenall said:


> Rehmani said:
> 
> 
> > Challenger said:
> ...


Jew can not accept the facts and called lair to others instead accept the facts and leave Israel.


----------



## Rehmani (Dec 12, 2015)

Phoenall said:


> Rehmani said:
> 
> 
> > Challenger said:
> ...


Jew can not accept the facts and called lair to others instead accept the facts and leave Israel.


----------



## Rehmani (Dec 12, 2015)

Phoenall said:


> Rehmani said:
> 
> 
> > Hollie said:
> ...


It Means Palestine is under illegal and forced occupation.


----------



## Rehmani (Dec 12, 2015)

Phoenall said:


> Rehmani said:
> 
> 
> > Kondor3 said:
> ...


Look jew all this mess you are describing is created by jew by invaded palestinian home land why don't you accept this fact that you jew are responsible trouble in holy land.


----------



## Rehmani (Dec 12, 2015)

RoccoR said:


> Rehmani,  et al,
> 
> Again, Israeli's do not target civilians (ever).  It can sometimes be the case that civilians are casualties do to proximity of military targets; but Israel does not target civilians.
> 
> ...


But jew please try to understand that Israeli army invade Palestinian home land and push them into neighboring countries and these Palestinian refugee living in these camps at the border of their own home land called Palestine or Holy land and waiting when jewish depart so Palestinian enter in their home land.


----------



## Rehmani (Dec 12, 2015)

RoccoR said:


> Rehmani,  et al,
> 
> I agree with you.  You cannot change history.
> 
> ...


Look, when you don't accept the indigenous palestinian rights, which is spread over many thousands of years. How come you are expecting that world will accept your arguments which is base over forced and illegal invasion.


----------



## Rehmani (Dec 12, 2015)

RoccoR said:


> Rehmani,  et al,
> 
> Not correct.  I cannot envision how you even come to that conclusion.
> 
> ...


Look again, you are repeating same forced and illegal invasion story over the rights of indigenous palestinian.


----------



## Rehmani (Dec 12, 2015)

Roudy said:


> Rehmani said:
> 
> 
> > Kondor3 said:
> ...


The way you people are arguing, sound like this dispute won't settle on table means what you people are defending  is an illegal invasion and only solution is possible by an other force invasion.


----------



## Rehmani (Dec 12, 2015)

Roudy said:


> Rehmani said:
> 
> 
> > RoccoR said:
> ...


Well, I am wondering if you people are not jew, then why jews are not defending Israel. And who you are? Are you made OR have nothing to do by posting 6000 posts in a year for nothing, if I not called you a jew then what should I call you a paid agent or hired soldier OR please explain if you have some other name for you self in your mind. BECAUSE I AM A REAL PERSON AND I WANT TO DISCUS ISSUE WITH REAL JEW TO REACH A REAL LOGICAL SOLUTION FOR PEACE IN HOLY LAND. not....................................................................


----------



## Rehmani (Dec 12, 2015)

Roudy said:


> Rehmani said:
> 
> 
> > Phoenall said:
> ...


LIAR.


----------



## Rehmani (Dec 12, 2015)

Roudy said:


> Rehmani said:
> 
> 
> > Kondor3 said:
> ...


palestinian are winning and you are making fool to jew by defending their illegal invasion.


----------



## Rehmani (Dec 12, 2015)

Roudy said:


> Rehmani said:
> 
> 
> > Hollie said:
> ...


People like you running a falls propaganda and keep the war going on and on but soon you people would defeated.


----------



## montelatici (Dec 12, 2015)

RoccoR said:


> Rehmani,  et al,
> 
> Not correct.  I cannot envision how you even come to that conclusion.
> 
> ...




There was nothing peaceful about the partition and the British were well aware of the situation at the time. Recently declassified British intelligence reports confirm that you don't know what you are talking about and are simply spouting propaganda.  It also confirms that the Arab armies intervened to attempt to stop the Jewish massacre of Muslims and Christians and the British state, at the time, the Arab armies were the only hope to save the non-Jews from Jew violent aggression.  

"*Declassified UK reports document build-up of conflict, Jewish public's endorsement of their leaders' pro-terrorist stance and declare armies of Arab states were Palestinians' 'only hope'*

The British government knew from the moment it planned to withdraw its forces from Palestine more than 60 years ago that partition of the territory and the founding of the state of Israel would lead to war and defeat for the Arabs, secret documents released make clear.

The documents, which have a remarkable contemporary resonance, reveal how British officials looked on as Jewish settlers took over more and more Arab land.

In the weeks leading up to the partition of Palestine in 1948, when Britain gave up its UN mandate,* Jewish terrorist groups were mounting increasing attacks* on UK forces and Arab fighters, the Colonial Office papers show.

As early as October 1946, two years before partition, UK officials warned London that *Jewish opinion would oppose partition "unless the Jewish share were so enlarged as to make the scheme wholly unacceptable to Arabs".*

British officials warned the colonial secretary, George Hall: *"The Jewish public … endorsed the attitude of its leaders that terrorism is a natural consequence *of the general policy of His Majesty's Government", including turning away ships carrying "illegal" Jewish immigrants.

After an increase in violent attacks by the militant Zionists of the Stern group and Irgun, British officials reported later in 1946: *"Arab leaders appear to be still disposed to defer active opposition so long as a chance of a political decision acceptable to Arab interests exists." *But they warned: "There is a real danger lest any *further Jewish provocation *may result in isolated acts of retaliation spreading inevitably to wider Arab-Jewish clashes".

A report dated October 1947 refers to Menachem Begin, commander of Irgun, stating in a press interview that "the fight against the British invader would continue until the last one left Palestine".

British officials predicted war – and Arab defeat – in Palestine in 1948


----------



## Phoenall (Dec 12, 2015)

P F Tinmore said:


> Phoenall said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...






 Don't need to, the fact that you use it as evidence is enough to show it is propaganda from an Islamic source. The fact that it is Iranian press tv alone makes it Islamic propaganda


----------



## Phoenall (Dec 12, 2015)

Rehmani said:


> Phoenall said:
> 
> 
> > Rehmani said:
> ...






 Israel is legally the Jewish national home, time to defend it fully from Islamic violence and terrorism.


----------



## Phoenall (Dec 12, 2015)

Rehmani said:


> Phoenall said:
> 
> 
> > Rehmani said:
> ...








 Says who as no laws are broken by the occupation, it follows the Geneva conventions rules on occupation


----------



## Rehmani (Dec 12, 2015)

RoccoR said:


> montelatici,  et al,
> 
> And therein rests the backbone of the problem.
> 
> ...


Roccor the way you are repeating your story is called propaganda but again you can not change facts and figure which is base on thousands of years the rights of Indigenous people of Palestine.   .


----------



## Phoenall (Dec 12, 2015)

Rehmani said:


> Phoenall said:
> 
> 
> > Rehmani said:
> ...







 When did it become the Palestinian home land then, as the Ottomans did not declare it anything but Ottoman land. The LoN gave them trans Jordan which is the Palestinian homeland, not Jewish Palestine which is the Jews homeland. If you cant deal in facts then don't keep telling LIES.


----------



## Phoenall (Dec 12, 2015)

Rehmani said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > Rehmani,  et al,
> ...










 They were kicked out of their homeland by heir fellow Palestinians when they tried to take over by force. The Palestinians killed as many as 50,000 in one month of the PLO Palestinians and evicted them from Jordan.   If you cant accept the truth then you have no business spreading LIES on here.


----------



## Phoenall (Dec 12, 2015)

Rehmani said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > Rehmani,  et al,
> ...








 What rights are those then, as the Ottomans did not allow them any rights under Islamic sharia law.


----------



## Phoenall (Dec 12, 2015)

Rehmani said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > Rehmani,  et al,
> ...







 They had no rights, they lost them when they joined the Ottoman forces and were beat by the British.


----------



## Phoenall (Dec 12, 2015)

Rehmani said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Rehmani said:
> ...






 The only invasion was by arab muslims, who were beaten by a lesser enemy because they had Yahweh on their side.


----------



## Phoenall (Dec 12, 2015)

Rehmani said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > montelatici,  et al,
> ...







 Define those rights and when they came into force. the Palestinians lost all rights when the British defeated them in 1917 and their leaders gave up the land from under their feet.


----------



## IlarMeilyr (Dec 12, 2015)

montelatici said:


> IlarMeilyr said:
> 
> 
> > The shocking images reveal that death can be quite gruesome.  Some of us already realized this.
> ...


Lots of claims.  No proof.

Showing a dead mangled baby's body doesn't actually tell us who did it or whether the result was even intended by whoever did it.

And you quote the likes of UN scumbags as if that had any hint of persuasiveness.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Dec 12, 2015)

Phoenall said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Phoenall said:
> ...


OK, if you say so.


----------



## IlarMeilyr (Dec 12, 2015)

P F Tinmore said:


> Phoenall said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...


Actually, it's obvious to all rational people.  Obviously, that excludes you, PF Tinhead.


----------



## montelatici (Dec 12, 2015)

Roudy said:


> montelatici said:
> 
> 
> > Indeependent said:
> ...



Why don't you use a real dictionary.

A *strategy* is a larger, overall plan that can comprise several *tactics*, which are smaller, focused, less impactful plans that are part of the overall plan. While the original usage of the terms strategy and tactic was in a military context, they are now used in a wide variety of everyday settings, including business.


----------



## Kondor3 (Dec 12, 2015)

Rehmani said:


> ...the rights of indigenous palestinian.


Phukk 'em...

Especially in light of the fact that they routinely and falsely accuse Israel of intentionally targeting civilians, as a matter of policy and routine practice...

These Arab-Muslim descendants of the _Jackrabbits_ of the *Great Arab Skedaddle of 1948* can fault their father and grandfathers for their plight...

*"He who pees his pants, then runs away, lives to regret it, for many a day"* - Kondor3

Your (side's) own propaganda maps of a 'shrinking Palestine' tell us all we need to know...






*You(r side) has lost..*.

You no longer have enough land to create and sustain a viable state; in fact, you never have; even the Old Palestine of 1947 was not enough, for a backwards people like yours, and that would certainly be true today, even if you magically re-acquired all the land lost since the Six Day War of 1967... even that amount of land would not be enough to create and sustain a state.

*Your side has lost this multi-generational war.*

*It is over...*

In truth, it was over 67 years ago, but...

If that was not clear to the Arab Cowards of 1948, or the Arab Losers or 1967, or the Arab Losers of 1973, it should have been clear to the Arab Losers of 2014...






From this point forward, every time that Hamas et al undertake a rocket barrage campaign or large-scale commando sortie, *from staging points or using assets embedded within civilian population centers*, this (above) is what you can look forward to...

The gloves are coming off, finally, and inevitably...

And, every time that you lose another mini-war, you lose a vast amount of _additional_ territory; in truth, if you undertake a Third Intifada or another Gaza War like 2014, there won't be enough land remaining under your control to stand in; you will be standing on each other's shoulders, on a few scraps of scattered land, each the size of a postage stamp.

*That's no way to live, and there is no future in you staying there.

Time to pack up and leave.*

Get your families the hell out of there, and go build new lives somewhere else, where you can be happy, and prosperous, and where your children and grandchildren can live in peace, and enjoy Life, rather than stupidly celebrating and asking for Death.

_*Life*_, fools, not Death.
*
Live.

Leave.*


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## Roudy (Dec 12, 2015)

Rehmani said:


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Yeah?  And how's that "other solution" working out, Mr Jew Jew Jew Jew Jew Jew?


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## Roudy (Dec 12, 2015)

montelatici said:


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More bull and desperation.  Strategy and tactic can be interchangeable words. You can carry out ONE tactic that fulfills a desired strategy, or vice versa.  It can be be a large or small tactic OR strategy.  In other words, they are synonyms. 

 The two words are widely used in a variety of settings? Wow!  That's a shocking revelation!


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## Roudy (Dec 12, 2015)

Rehmani said:


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Israel is not Muslim holy land, and will never be ruled by Islam again, mr Jew Jew Jew Jew Jew.

Islamic Muslim savages are attacking and murdering innocent people all over the world, Israel is just another location that these animals are doing that. 

Islam is the cancer of modern humanity, and should be treated as such. Israel and Western nations that can stand up to these barbarians and protect their civilians and uphold their ideals,  are the cure.  Thats the logical solution.


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## Roudy (Dec 12, 2015)

IlarMeilyr said:


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Did you check out the bullshit websites the info was derived from?


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## montelatici (Dec 12, 2015)

Roudy said:


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They are not interchangeable at all.  Try giving a presentation to general staff and use the words interchangeably and you will be booted out of the room. You haven't a clue sport.


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## Roudy (Dec 12, 2015)

montelatici said:


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Dictionary says so.  Logic says so. Tactic and strategy are interchangeable. 

"He used this tactic to..." Or "he used this strategy to..." <----Same thing. 

 Some people just can't handle being wrong.


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## Phoenall (Dec 12, 2015)

P F Tinmore said:


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 So you are saying that Iranian state mass media is not biased against Israel


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## montelatici (Dec 12, 2015)

Roudy said:


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Roudy said:


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Well Ruddy, let's all be grateful that you aren't an arms negotiator, you would give away strategic nuclear weapons for tactical nuclear weapons since the terms are interchangeable.  LOL  Ruddy, get an education and use real dictionaries.


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## aris2chat (Dec 12, 2015)

Israel News Flash on Twitter


Palestinian stabbing IDF and civilian


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## theliq (Dec 12, 2015)

Kondor3 said:


> Rehmani said:
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Such an Arrogant post as to consign Kondie to the Dustbin of Rank Posts...............You are inciting DEATH TO ALL JEWS essentially .......such is your ISIS style inflammatory declaration ........... same as the Zionists cira 1910........you think you can dictate history......Watch what you dream for..it will slap you in the face.........or chop your head off...........you do realize that the void would be filled by ISIS types......your comment is churlish,shameful(read what that word means)ignorant, devisive and ignorant................Kondie "NO MAN IS AN ISLAND"/Israel is no island either.steve


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## member (Dec 12, 2015)

fanger said:


>





​






 _*"Looks like they do."

*_




 .....*"Looks like they do."...*



good night, _silent_ night ! 









 






 = 






​


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## theliq (Dec 12, 2015)

aris2chat said:


> Israel News Flash on Twitter
> 
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> Palestinian stabbing IDF and civilian


Big deal.....Your side Immolate 14 year old boys,Women and Children........Murder and Slaughter in the name of STEALING Palestinian Land.......The World Detest YOU.apart from those Americans who think you are the chosen few.......those who are 99 cents short of a $1


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## Roudy (Dec 12, 2015)

montelatici said:


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You like to argue over nothing don't you?  Tactic and strategy are synonyms. And the definition discussed wasn't the military definition.   Words can have very different meanings when it comes to technical, legal, or medical fields. Wherever you got your education go get your money back.


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## P F Tinmore (Dec 12, 2015)

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That was not my claim.


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## montelatici (Dec 13, 2015)

Roudy said:


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Tactic and strategy are not synonyms in any field. Both words have precise meanings.  Quit digging.


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## Kondor3 (Dec 13, 2015)

theliq said:


> ...Such an Arrogant post as to consign Kondie to the Dustbin of Rank Posts...


If you don't like it, then I know I'm on the right track.



> ...You are inciting DEATH TO ALL JEWS essentially ..


Uh-oh... now you've gone and done it... now you've scared the Quislings, fer shure.



> ...such is your ISIS style inflammatory declaration ..


Nothing inflammatory about speaking The Truth.



> ...same as the Zionists cira 1910...


One hundred and five years later, their multi-generational goal is nearly completed.



> ...you think you can dictate history...


No need to dictate history - merely to recite it and to interpret it correctly - even when The Adversary moans and groans that it isn't so.



> ...Watch what you dream for..it will slap you in the face... or chop your head off...


"If they mean to have a war, then let it begin here."



> ...you do realize that the void would be filled by ISIS types...


At least they'll be beyond the borders of Eretz Yisrael, once the last of the internal riff-raff have departed, the Reconquista completed.



> ...your comment is churlish,shameful(read what that word means)ignorant, devisive and ignorant...


Why thank you. Anyone siding with the Palestinians is bound to think of it in those terms. That tells me I've hit a nerve. Excellent.



> ...Kondie "NO MAN IS AN ISLAND"/Israel is no island either.steve


Correct. Israel is the worst nightmare of the Muslim-Arabs of the region. Chickens coming home to roost. Dhimmis looking for payback. And getting it.


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## montelatici (Dec 13, 2015)

As to your claim that in different fields the words mean something different, here are several business websites that address this issue.  Here is one.  It would do you good to put in a little study before you contradict, in writing, posters who know far more than you do.  It just makes you look silly when you do that.

*How to Completely Confuse Strategy with Tactics*

* Let’s take a quick look at how to completely confuse “strategy” with “tactics”:




Think the terms are synonymous and are thus interchangeable.
Assume that both terms answer the same types of questions.
Pick one word over the other because it sounds better in conversation or planning.
How to Completely Confuse Strategy with Tactics -
*


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## montelatici (Dec 13, 2015)

Kondor3 said:


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The Ottoman Empire ended dhimmitude in the mid 19th century.  Non-Muslims could still pay the tax and not serve in the military, but if they served in the military they paid no dhimmi tax. 

The Jews in Palestine were never were dhimmis, they arrived after the end of dhimmitude.

Israel will last maybe another two generations as a Jewish state.  It will either transform itself into a secular democratic state for all religions/ethnicities (like South Africa) or if the Jews continue on the road they are on, it will empower the Islamists and it will end up like Rhodesia.


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## Roudy (Dec 13, 2015)

montelatici said:


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Yes they're synonyms. Which means in many cases they are interchangeable. Now run along, troll.


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## Roudy (Dec 13, 2015)

montelatici said:


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Yada yada yada.  Back to the same old irrelevant topic, sprinkled with fantasies of Isrsel's destruction.


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## montelatici (Dec 13, 2015)

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Why do you insist on making a fool of yourself.

The words are only interchangeable when spoken by people that are not sufficiently educated. You could bone a bit and appear to be so inadequate on this forum.  One of the "For Dummies" publications addresses the issue.  Perhaps you should read it in its entirety, to educate yourself.

"*Strategic Planning: Strategy vs. Tactics"

Quite often, people confuse strategy and tactics and think the two terms are interchangeable in strategic planning, but they’re not. 

Strategic Planning: Strategy vs. Tactics - For Dummies*


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## Hollie (Dec 13, 2015)

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Yet more _taqiyya. _Dhimmitude never ended in the Ottoman State of Islamo-Fascism. Some of the laws negatively affecting non-Islamics were relaxed but you need to learn your islamo-history and understand that dhimmitude has always been a part of Islamic fascist politico-religious ideology. 

While the Ottoman Colonial Empire was declared dead in 1924, it had actually ended long before, collapsing under its own dead weight of apartheid rules that had lost relevance and their ability to be enforced.

Islamic fascist / apartheid fear societies will not last. They are maintained through the implementation of fear and ignorance.


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## Rehmani (Dec 13, 2015)

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Mostly these people who are spreading hate against muslim and supporting israel illegal invasion are hired by jews. And they live some where in poor countries like Pakistan and India unfortunately, please forgive them for their English.


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## Rehmani (Dec 13, 2015)

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Jew like you or you like jew. Jew are traitor, they are troubling every where in the world and world is watching. Soon they will see any way. And you should not forget that Jew only invited in holy land by muslim, jew should thanks full to these muslim who accommodate them instead jew are killing, how shame full act by jew, that is how some one do to those who help them out. Jew should do the right thing but they can not because they thing that they special race. I will say Christian were right and Muslim were wrong to allowed jew in to holy land.


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## Rehmani (Dec 13, 2015)

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Are you accepting it that you are Jew or just .............................................................!


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## Rehmani (Dec 13, 2015)

Kondor3 said:


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These maps of Israel showing clearly that how jew cleverly plan to invade Palestine but soon time will reverse and Jew will leave again as already more jew abandoning the israeli citizenship than receiving and moving USA but mostly migrating to Germany from Israel, why Germany ? I will say German should be careful.


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## Rehmani (Dec 13, 2015)

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What you are suggesting war is the only solution to force jew out of Holy land, is this correct.


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## Kondor3 (Dec 13, 2015)

montelatici said:


> ...The Ottoman Empire ended dhimmitude in the mid 19th century.  Non-Muslims could still pay the tax and not serve in the military, but if they served in the military they paid no dhimmi tax...


There is the formal practice of Dhimmitude, and there is the mindset (relagation to 2nd-class diziesnship) of Dhimmitude; if not the one, than the other, or both; over the centuries.



> ...The Jews in Palestine were never were dhimmis, they arrived after the end of dhimmitude...


Given that the Jewish presence in Palestine long predates Islam, this is incorrect.



> ...Israel will last maybe another two generations as a Jewish state.  It will either transform itself into a secular democratic state for all religions/ethnicities (like South Africa) or if the Jews continue on the road they are on, it will empower the Islamists and it will end up like Rhodesia.


Yes. We have heard this noise coming from you time and  again. Trouble is, the analogy is grotesquely flawed, and can be negated entirely through simple Expulsion.

As to ISIS, or whatever next-gen Muslim Insanity follows it, it will come, regardless of what the Jews of Israel do; might as well be killed for bulls, than for sheep.

But, at least, and unlike the Neanderthals of Hamas, the Israelis do not go out of their way to kill civilians, nor do they rejoice when such casualties are incurred.


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## Rehmani (Dec 13, 2015)

Phoenall said:


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Means, you are saying that defeat Jew and get you country back from illegal invader, Is it correct?


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## Rehmani (Dec 13, 2015)

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Good, at least you accept it that jew are occupied on land of palestine, the indigenous owner of holy land.


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## Rehmani (Dec 13, 2015)

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LIER jew.


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## Rehmani (Dec 13, 2015)

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Look Not a single Prophet born in holy land from Ibrahim PBUH to Moses PBUH, IF any prophet born in holy land is Jesus PBUH and he will return Inshallah. To mark the authority that who belongs to holy land, definitely not Jew.


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## Rehmani (Dec 13, 2015)

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Not a single prophet born in Holy land from Ibrahim PBUH to Moses PBUH, but but Jesus PBUH born in holy land and he will return Inshaallah. But jew only live there for few years when roman kicked them out and now I will say they were right. Before I used to think that they innocent but I was wrong, they are cruel.


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## Rehmani (Dec 13, 2015)

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Please phoney please don't create mess just accept the facts and let holy land turn in to peace again as it was before WWI.


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## montelatici (Dec 13, 2015)

Kondor3 said:


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There will not any further expulsion of the native people of Palestine.  The original expulsion, facilitated by a foolhardy UN decision to carve out a European enclave in the Middle East was a lesson learned.   Even the U.S. would intervene to stop any such nonsense. 

All colonial projects have similar dynamics.  Israel is not different, it has just garnered more financial and military support than others.  That support eventually ends.


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## Phoenall (Dec 13, 2015)

Once again you confuse pinko liberals with the rest of humanity. The rest of humanity see's the Palestinians for what they are and want them eradicating from the west. If the arab's did not have oil this situation would have been sorted 100 years ago, and mecca would be a parking lot for the rich and famous


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## Phoenall (Dec 13, 2015)

theliq said:


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#






Still waiting for the evidence of all these alleged murders. You know that making false claims like these is am offence in Australia and is also racism and Nazism. Now when did the Palestinians come into ownership of this land as in 1917 they owned nothing and by 2015 they still owned nothing according to every International law that exists.


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## Phoenall (Dec 13, 2015)

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 Context


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## Phoenall (Dec 13, 2015)

P F Tinmore said:


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 Your words

 OK, if you say so. 

 These imply explicitly in the context of the post that it is your claim.


 The source is propaganda and you cant say it isnt


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## Phoenall (Dec 13, 2015)

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 So you cant find any and need a way out. Not me creating any mess but you and your fellow muslims that refuse to see that you don't own the world, and never will.  The araqb muslims were given 78% of Palestine for their homeland, but being greedy they wanted the whole world. Now they are paying the price and don't like how much it is costing them


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## Phoenall (Dec 13, 2015)

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 COWFLOP


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## Phoenall (Dec 13, 2015)

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Islamocatholic lies and Nazi propaganda, is that all you have left to play with ?


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## Phoenall (Dec 13, 2015)

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 What illegal invasion was that then, when did it take place and who organised it. Failure to comply means that you are LYING and spreading racist incitement to violence and terrorism


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## Phoenall (Dec 13, 2015)

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 Why do you have a problem with the Jews, are you a racist Nazi that wants to bring back the final solution and wipe out the Jews completely ?


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## Phoenall (Dec 13, 2015)

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 I would say the muslims need to be careful in Europe as the nationalists are winning elections all the time. This means that the muslims will face a version of the dhimmi laws and pact of Umar if they want to stay in Europe. The Europeans might even bring in a version of the Nuremburg laws to combat the rise of muslim terrorism and extremism.


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## Phoenall (Dec 13, 2015)

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 YES and the muslims know it, but they don't have the will to take on the Jews even though they outnumber them 100,000,000 to 1. Who will lead them in battle who will be acceptable to all sides, and will they follow him unquestioningly when he tells them to throw their lives away to gain one grain of Jewish sand.

 They lost the war in 1917 when they sided with the Ottomans so the LoN left them out of the card list


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## Phoenall (Dec 13, 2015)

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 Have you heard of black September in your mosque, when the Jordanian forces fired on the Palestinians they had in concentration camps. You do know that Jordan was part of Palestine don't you, which is why the flags are the same.


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## Phoenall (Dec 13, 2015)

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 What were his prophesies then, when you cant find any then it proves he was like you a LIAR.

 Jesus was a Jew and read your koran to see what mo'mad the false prophet has to say about the Jews and Jerusalem.  No mention of arab muslims ruling Israel is there, but he does say that they Jews are the real owners/rulers.


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## Kondor3 (Dec 13, 2015)

Rehmani said:


> ...These maps of Israel showing clearly that how jew cleverly plan to invade Palestine...


Yes, they were _much_ more clever than you, but that is not difficult.

Oh, and they were also much _braver_ than you, but that, also, is not difficult.



> ...but soon time will reverse and Jew will leave again...


Put down the hookah, boy... too much of that Afghan hashish will rot your brain.



> ...as already more jew abandoning the israeli citizenship than receiving and moving USA...


Immigration and emigration fluctuates constantly, for all countries.

The Jewish Homeland - Israel - is doing well - thank you very much.



> ...but mostly migrating to Germany from Israel, why Germany ? I will say German should be careful.


Yes.

The Germans should, indeed, be careful.

Taking in too many Muslims is _*always*_ dangerous, and is simply asking for trouble.

Letting a few in? No problem.

Letting waves of Muslims come in - such as the refugees from Syria? Definitely not. You cannot be trusted to behave yourselves.

And isn't it interesting, that Jews now feel comfortable in visiting or immigrating to Germany, and that the Germans feel comfortable with receiving Jews?

But nobody wants to take in Muslims, in many cases, not even in other Muslim countries.


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## flacaltenn (Dec 13, 2015)

*Moderation Message:
Thread has long abandoned the specific topic.. 
Time to close.. *


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