# Should Israel repair the Temple.



## Boston1 (Aug 22, 2017)

The Temple Mount has been the source for endless headaches, the Arabs have used it as a flashpoint for both violence and incitement for far too long. 

Should the Israelis simply bull doze whatever Arab structures are not historic, ban Muslims from the Mount and rebuild the temple?

I say its a simple matter of tribal rights. The Muslim structures on the mount are NOT historical in nature or of any significant age that they deserve any special considerations. They represent revisionist history in that they are recent constructs designed to obscure the history of the mount and intended to erase the true cultural history of the TEMPLE MOUNT. Also by removing the flashpoint of so much violence the Judaic people would then have an opportunity to repair the temple structure. The base and foundations appear reasonably intact and construction could begin as soon as the scrape off is complete. 

GO


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## TNHarley (Aug 22, 2017)

1300 years or so isnt historic?


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## Eloy (Aug 22, 2017)

Boston1 said:


> The Temple Mount has been the source for endless headaches, the Arabs have used it as a flashpoint for both violence and incitement for far too long.
> 
> Should the Israelis simply bull doze whatever Arab structures are not historic, ban Muslims from the Mount and rebuild the temple?
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> ...


By international treaty, Jordan is responsible for the care of the Noble Sanctuary. The Israelis have no legal authority to be there.


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## Sixties Fan (Aug 22, 2017)

Eloy said:


> Boston1 said:
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> > The Temple Mount has been the source for endless headaches, the Arabs have used it as a flashpoint for both violence and incitement for far too long.
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Eloy, you know better than that.

If International Law prohibits Israel to have any legal authority on the Temple Mount, their holiest site, do show us the UN and other legal sources which say so.


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## Sixties Fan (Aug 22, 2017)

TNHarley said:


> 1300 years or so isnt historic?



1300 (it is actually 1400) years of what exactly?


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## TNHarley (Aug 22, 2017)

Sixties Fan said:


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If you know the number, why do question what it is? 
Dome of Rock


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## rylah (Aug 22, 2017)

Eloy said:


> Boston1 said:
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> > The Temple Mount has been the source for endless headaches, the Arabs have used it as a flashpoint for both violence and incitement for far too long.
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The international law does not include neither the Jewish nor Muslim laws.
Not one among those who actually control the people on the ground, interpret the international law as Europeans do. Both sides use it or neglect it to their advantage.

Israelis have every possible authority to be in ירושלים רבתי, in my opinion.
Arabs have partial authority on grounds of long presence, and on grounds of religious acceptance.


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## TNHarley (Aug 22, 2017)

If the Jews were to do something like that, dont you think that would start a war? Like a REAL war. A big one. Not a "conflict?"


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## Eloy (Aug 22, 2017)

Sixties Fan said:


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The site, including the Al-Aqsa Mosque and the Dome of the Rock, is in the hands of the Jerusalem Islamic Waqf which is an Islamic Trust set up in the twelfth century. Since the annexation of East Jerusalem by the Israel recently, the Israelis have allowed the waqf to retain authority over the Haram esh-Sharif.


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## Sixties Fan (Aug 22, 2017)

TNHarley said:


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Is the Dome of the Rocks a Mosque?  It is not.

The Dome of the Rock was built for the Jews, but Muslims today do not know about it.
And if it has been of great importance to Islam, why was it left to rot for hundreds and hundreds of years?

http://www.triumphpro.com/dome-of-rock-riddle.pdf

Was the Dome on the Rock originally built for the Jews?

http://www.jewishpress.com/news/bre...of-the-rocks-jewish-temple-origin/2016/10/28/

Feel free to look at all of the photos of the Dome of the Rocks for the past 200 years.

The Ottoman Empire was not poor.  If the Dome of the Rocks was that important to Islam, why did Muslims let it fall apart as they did?

And why do Muslims pray with their backs to the Dome of the Rocks , towards Mecca, if they say it is very important to them?
There are other places they could kneel and pray in order to face Mecca.


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## Sixties Fan (Aug 22, 2017)

TNHarley said:


> If the Jews were to do something like that, dont you think that would start a war? Like a REAL war. A big one. Not a "conflict?"



It has been a War, Muslims against Jews, since 1920.  With 3 big wars.
The Muslims simply changed tactics in the 1970s.


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## fncceo (Aug 22, 2017)

Eloy said:


> Boston1 said:
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> > The Temple Mount has been the source for endless headaches, the Arabs have used it as a flashpoint for both violence and incitement for far too long.
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Oh geesh!  I'll let them know.  They must have wondered in my mistake.  

I personally don't think the dome of the rock should be levelled.  It'll make a great gift shop for the rebuilt Temple.


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## TNHarley (Aug 22, 2017)

Sixties Fan said:


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who cares if it was a mosque or not? The OP said "structures"
"evidence suggests it was intended as a jewish building"
Even though it is fact that it was built by Al-Malik?
That hack of a link also stated "why would they build two buildings right beside each other?"
Umm one is a mosque and one is a shrine. They also offer NO evidence even though they state there is some. 
Also, the shrine was built on bedrock. When you add in earthquakes, damage in inevitable. It has been worked on alot during the years.


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## Boston1 (Aug 22, 2017)

TNHarley said:


> 1300 years or so isnt historic?



LOL Islam didn't exist prior to about 700 years ago so ? how are any Islamic structures on the Mount older than that ?


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## TNHarley (Aug 22, 2017)

Boston1 said:


> TNHarley said:
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LMAO oh boy.


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## Boston1 (Aug 22, 2017)

TNHarley said:


> If the Jews were to do something like that, dont you think that would start a war? Like a REAL war. A big one. Not a "conflict?"



Not at all. The site is nothing more than another way to insult Israel. They let it fall apart for decades, centuries before the leveled most of it themselves and rebuilt a new structure on the site a few years ago. They've learned their lesson about direct war with Israel. Besides it'd be over before you could blink. There's plenty of equipment in the area already and it could be scraped off in one night.


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## Boston1 (Aug 22, 2017)

TNHarley said:


> Boston1 said:
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Woops, you are right. I got the years mixed up.


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## Boston1 (Aug 22, 2017)

Boston1 said:


> TNHarley said:
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hey my bad, I had the years mixed up. BUT, the structures on the mount mostly rotted and collapsed and were all replaced in recent years. NOT restored, but scraped and replaced in recent times. There's nothing historical about the existing structures


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## Sixties Fan (Aug 22, 2017)

Boston1 said:


> TNHarley said:
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Islam was created in the early 7th century CE.  You may be confusing the number 7. (?)


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## TNHarley (Aug 22, 2017)

Sixties Fan said:


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It was the sixth century. Sometime in the late 500s AD. Around 560 or 570?


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## TNHarley (Aug 22, 2017)

Boston1 said:


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Shit happens. At least you admit to mistakes!


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## Indeependent (Aug 22, 2017)

Bulldoze the Rock and ban Muslims.
They want a war?
Nuke the fuckers.
If any combination of Arab nations actually believed they could take on Israel, they would have done it already.


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## TNHarley (Aug 22, 2017)

Indeependent said:


> Bulldoze the Rock and ban Muslims.
> They want a war?
> Nuke the fuckers.
> If any combination of Arab nations actually believed they could take on Israel, they would have done it already.


They probably know we americans are israels bitch.


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## montelatici (Aug 22, 2017)

Indeependent said:


> Bulldoze the Rock and ban Muslims.
> They want a war?
> Nuke the fuckers.
> If any combination of Arab nations actually believed they could take on Israel, they would have done it already.



You are a hoot.  Without the British and the Americans the colonization of Palestine would not have taken place.  By the way, who are you people planning to nuke?


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## Boston1 (Aug 22, 2017)

The idea is that it would accomplish two major positive actions at once. Two birds with one stone so to speak. 

Eliminate the flashpoint of violence against Israeli's and add to the character of the city and the ancestral lands. If the Muslims are going to throw one fit after another saying Israel is planing on taking the Mount, they might as well do it and be done with all the headaches


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## Hollie (Aug 22, 2017)

montelatici said:


> Indeependent said:
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The colonization of the geographic area of "Pal'istan" had taken place a number of times. Arabs-Moslems and European Christian Crusaders were just two of the invaders / colonists to have a history there.

You are a hoot.


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## Indeependent (Aug 22, 2017)

montelatici said:


> Indeependent said:
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It depends on which Arab bitches wanna eat nukes.
We can thank the French for that.


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## Boston1 (Aug 22, 2017)

Hollie said:


> montelatici said:
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I try ;-) Its a tribal rights issue. Lots of other tribes in the area were awarded homelands and Israel should just take the bull by the horns ;-) 

They can play nice guy and let this nonsense go on, or they can begin to get tough and solve the problem. Level the Mount and rebuild the temple. Segregate combatants/decedents of combatants from non combatants and throw the bums out. Exactly as per the Geneva Conventions. 

It'd save a lot of lives in the long run.


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## montelatici (Aug 22, 2017)

Sounds like a good plan, but throw in a few nukes.


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## Shusha (Aug 22, 2017)

Eloy said:


> By international treaty, Jordan is responsible for the care of the Noble Sanctuary. The Israelis have no legal authority to be there.




Lets be clear what the treaty says.  Article 9 of the Treaty of Peace Between the State of Israel and the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan states:

_Article 9.  Places of Historical and Religious Significance and Interfaith Relations 

1. Each Party will provide freedom of access to places of religious and historical significance. 

2. In this regard, in accordance with the Washington Declaration, Israel respects the present special role of the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan in Muslim Holy shrines in Jerusalem. When negotiations on the permanent status will take place, Israel will give high priority to the Jordanian historic role in these shrines. 

3. The Parties will act together to promote interfaith relations among the three monotheistic religions, with the aim of working towards religious understanding, moral commitment, freedom of religious worship, and tolerance and peace._


*Both Parties are responsible for places of religious and historical significance.  Both parties are responsible for freedom of religious worship, tolerance and peace.  
*
Israel acknowledges that the Kingdom of Jordan has a special role concerning the Muslim shrines.  Nothing else.  It does not give sovereignty over the shrines to Jordan.  It does not give responsibility to Jordan.  It simply acknowledges that Jordan has a special role.  


The destruction of those shrines, though, would certainly be a breech of this Peace Agreement.  

That said, Jordan is obligated, by treaty, to promote freedom of religious worship.  We don't need to scrape the mosque or the Dome to build the Temple.  Its a big site and there is plenty of room for both.  And we SHOULD rebuild the Temple.  I agree with the OP that it is a matter of asserting Jewish First Nations rights.  Especially since others are so determined to erase us.  

It will start a war though.  Its too soon.  When we decide to go to war over the Temple Mount, and we will, it would be a good idea to have Jordan, Egypt and Saudia Arabia on our side.  We are getting there.  We are not there yet.


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## Shusha (Aug 22, 2017)

I also think Israel should insist on properly conducted (meaning conducted by Israel) archaeological surveys of the Temple Mount/Noble Sanctuary.


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## Boston1 (Aug 22, 2017)

They need to show some initiative up there thats certain. They should NOT have removed the metal detectors and instead should have removed the protestors. 

IMHO they should seriously increase the number of repatriations for Arab troublemakers


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## montelatici (Aug 22, 2017)

Boston1 said:


> They need to show some initiative up there thats certain. They should NOT have removed the metal detectors and instead should have removed the protestors.
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> IMHO they should seriously increase the number of repatriations for Arab troublemakers



Where would one repatriate Palestinians, since they are the native people of Palestine?  I take it you know what repatriation means.  It's probably better to repatriate the Jews most of whom only arrived in Palestine from Europe less than a 100 years ago.


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## Shusha (Aug 22, 2017)

Boston1 said:


> They need to show some initiative up there thats certain. They should NOT have removed the metal detectors and instead should have removed the protestors.



I agree.  The metal detectors were a reasonable response to Arab violence in a holy place.  They should have been kept in place. It creates a win for the temper tantruming two-year-olds with their "days of rage" and violent acts and everyone knows you don't give in to temper tantruming two-year-olds.  

Personally, I think that if worshipers can't act with respect and dignity in a holy place, then they should be permanently banned -- including any of the women who yell at passersby, boys who play soccer, or anyone else not acting appropriately.

And, of course, everyone should be permitted to pray or worship anywhere on the holy site.


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## Shusha (Aug 22, 2017)

Of course, that is not what the Palestinians say.  Or what the Jordanians say.  Or what Muslims worldwide say.  Or even what the UN says.  In their world:

"This place is holy to Muslims alone, no one else,” insisted Ayad al-Ayoubi, a resident of the Muslim Quarter and one of the worshipers.

"There is nothing Jewish here, nationally or religiously,” (Kenan, another Muslim resident of Jerusalem) declared.

And therein lies the problem.  This is WHY the Jewish people need to reassert their rights to their history and religious and historical monuments.  We've been erased.  We are not BEING erased -- in the minds of Muslims and Arabs and Jordanians and much of the world -- we have ALREADY BEEN erased.


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## flacaltenn (Aug 22, 2017)

Eloy said:


> Boston1 said:
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Jordan renounced any claims or stewardship of the West Bank area long ago. Because they washed THEIR hands of any Palestinian problems. Doesn't WANT that job anymore. Which is part of the bigger issue here with the deposition of the "occupied" land.


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## flacaltenn (Aug 22, 2017)

Boston1 said:


> The Temple Mount has been the source for endless headaches, the Arabs have used it as a flashpoint for both violence and incitement for far too long.
> 
> Should the Israelis simply bull doze whatever Arab structures are not historic, ban Muslims from the Mount and rebuild the temple?
> 
> ...



The Temple Mount should be kept as open access to all visitors. In fact, there should be a Mosque, A Jewish Temple and a Christian Church atop the highest point in the City. THAT would be the kind of statement that befits the central city of the Holy Land. 

If Israel can't secure a deal like that -- get the UN to help with security. There's no need for a Messianic RE-BUILDING of central temple for Judaism.  None at all.. Israel is NOT a theocracy.  Thank Gawd..


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## BulletProof (Aug 22, 2017)

Boston1 said:


> The Muslim structures on the mount are NOT historical in nature or of any significant age that they deserve any special considerations. They represent revisionist history in that they are recent constructs designed to obscure the



Troll Boy, the Dome of the Rock is over 1300 years old.  The Dome of the Rock is one of the most sacred buildings of one of the world's largest religions.  And, you say it doesn't deserve any special considerations?  Mama told me there would be trolls like you.

There is no Temple there to be repaired, but think you for trolling again.  New buildings to replace old buildings don't carry the historical value of the old building, ignoramus. 

Israel has no legal right nor religious reason to rebuild the Temple.  Try not to be such an ignorant troll in the future.  But, it was exiting to see you dive so deep into the bullsh1t.

If you really think Israel pissing off the whole Arab would would calm things down, wrong again. Israel exists to be an offense to the world and to God.  Peace will only come when it is wiped off the map.


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## Boston1 (Aug 23, 2017)

LOL Bullethole you are funny. 

Israel has every right, oh they signed a treaty and thats fine but they have security concerns which means the treaty has already been broken. So yeah. Scrape it off and rebuild or just rebuild. Don't car which as long as there are equal rights for all on the Temple Mount

Get over your antisemitism and lets actually have religious equality.


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## BulletProof (Aug 23, 2017)

Boston1 said:


> Don't car which as long as there are equal rights for all on the Temple Mount



Should I have equal rights to your house?



> Get over your antisemitism and lets actually have religious equality.



Get over your Antichristism and your Islamaphobia.  Also, Jews aren't Semites.  Arabs are.  So, you need to get over your Antisemitism.  Thank you for playing.


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## Shusha (Aug 23, 2017)

BulletProof said:


> Boston1 said:
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> > The Muslim structures on the mount are NOT historical in nature or of any significant age that they deserve any special considerations. They represent revisionist history in that they are recent constructs designed to obscure the
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Ironic that you call Boston a troll and then suggest Israel should be wiped off the map.  Do what I say and not what I do, huh?

Of course, Israel is fully within her rights -- legally, historically and religiously to rebuild the Temple.


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## montelatici (Aug 23, 2017)

Shusha said:


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Of course, you are full of crap, as usual.

*Resolution 242 (1967)*
*of 22 November 1967*


_The Security Council,_

_Expressing_ its continuing concern with the grave situation in the Middle East,

_Emphasizing_ the inadmissibility of the acquisition of territory by war and the need to work for a just and lasting peace in which every State in the area can live in security,

_Emphasizing further_ that all Member States in their acceptance of the Charter of the United Nations have undertaken a commitment to act in accordance with Article 2 of the Charter,

1. _Affirms_ that the fulfilment of Charter principles requires the establishment of a just and lasting peace in the Middle East which should include the application of both the following principles:
*
(i) Withdrawal of Israel armed forces from territories occupied in the recent conflict;*

(ii) Termination of all claims or states of belligerency and respect for and acknowledgment of the sovereignty, territorial integrity and political independence of every State in the area and their right to live in peace within secure and recognized boundaries free from threats or acts of force;

2. _Affirms further_ the necessity

_(a)_ For guaranteeing freedom of navigation through international waterways in the area;

_(b)_ For achieving a just settlement of the refugee problem;

_(c)_ For guaranteeing the territorial inviolability and political independence of every State in the area, through measures including the establishment of demilitarized zones;

3. _Requests_ the Secretary-General to designate a Special Representative to proceed to the Middle East to establish and maintain contacts with the States concerned in order to promote agreement and assist efforts to achieve a peaceful and accepted settlement in accordance with the provisions and principles in this resolution;

4. _Requests_ the Secretary-General to report to the Security Council on the progress of the efforts of the Special Representative as soon as possible.
_Adopted unanimously at the 1382nd meeting._
_
S/RES/242 (1967) of 22 November 1967_


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## Shusha (Aug 23, 2017)

Lame.  

Termination of all claims or states of belligerency and respect for and *acknowledgment of the sovereignty, territorial integrity and political independence of every State in the area* and their right to live in peace within secure and recognized boundaries free from threats or acts of force;

States "in the area" = Israel and Jordan.  Jordan has since withdrawn all claims.  Guess who therefore has sovereignty, territorial integrity and political independence?


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## BulletProof (Aug 23, 2017)

Shusha said:


> Ironic that you call Boston a troll and then suggest Israel should be wiped off the map.  Do what I say and not what I do, huh?



No irony about it.  Israel is an apartheid and rogue state which causes endless suffering in the region.  The sooner it's gone, the better.  But, that's unrelated to Troll Boy's ignorant post.  Oh, and Troll Boy was wanting Israel to amp up the conflict, which is the reasoning behind his troll post.



> Of course, Israel is fully within her rights -- legally, historically and religiously to rebuild the Temple.



Under International law, Jordanian law, and Palestinian law, Israel has no legal right to remove the Dome of the Rock.  Israel hasn't even attempted to raise their satanic flag on the mount, let alone remove the Dome of the Rock.

I think 1300+ years of the Dome of the Rock gives historical rights to the Muslims.  The Temple didn't stand that long, let alone in the last 2000 years.

Religiously, the original (and second) Temple were built by instruction God, so only God has the authority to instruct the building of another Temple.  God hasn't done that.  Jews believe their Messiah will come and then the Temple will be rebuilt. Christians believe Jesus is the Temple, and no earthly Temple has any relevance.  Those who want the Temple built now are Evangelical Zionists cockholsters, and f1ck them all the way to Hell, religiously speaking.


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## montelatici (Aug 23, 2017)

Shusha said:


> Lame.
> 
> Termination of all claims or states of belligerency and respect for and *acknowledgment of the sovereignty, territorial integrity and political independence of every State in the area* and their right to live in peace within secure and recognized boundaries free from threats or acts of force;
> 
> States "in the area" = Israel and Jordan.  Jordan has since withdrawn all claims.  Guess who therefore has sovereignty, territorial integrity and political independence?



Article 1.

*"Withdrawal of Israel armed forces from territories occupied in the recent conflict;"*

Until Israel conforms to International Law, there will be no progress.


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## Boston1 (Aug 23, 2017)

LOL Oh lordy trotting out the apartheid argument again. You can't be serious.

Let me count the ways

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&ved=0ahUKEwivwPLS3-3VAhWkqlQKHcnVDaAQFgguMAE&url=https://www.nytimes.com/2017/03/31/opinion/why-israel-is-nothing-like-apartheid-south-africa.html?mcubz=3&usg=AFQjCNGGOGEevS8y8w7LJYoQizVl9baczQ

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=0ahUKEwivwPLS3-3VAhWkqlQKHcnVDaAQFggoMAA&url=http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/jake-beaumont/israel-not-apartheid-state_b_9128056.html&usg=AFQjCNEnO36SFQAoDQ6ZEAcRfz1ZJP3Hbg

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=4&ved=0ahUKEwivwPLS3-3VAhWkqlQKHcnVDaAQFgg4MAM&url=https://www.adl.org/education/resources/fact-sheets/response-to-common-inaccuracy-israel-is-an-apartheid-state&usg=AFQjCNHCxOP9iyH7daWRtLeMUfaLvpJ_CQ

Not that I expect you to actually think before you speak, obviously your reactionary rhetoric is the classic revisionist diatribe and thus born of ignorance and a failure of whatever education system you were a victim of.

Facts are that apartheid is a word with a definition and that definition does NOT apply to Israel. ;-)

Sad that some ignorant few will cling to whatever lies support their preferred beliefs

And then he blithers on about international law. LOL and conveniently makes no mention of the Byzantine church that stood on the mount for centuries or the subsequent islamization of the site both before and after the crusades or the massive demolition and reconstruction that went on in the 60s.

Go


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## montelatici (Aug 23, 2017)

Boston1 said:


> LOL Oh lordy trotting out the apartheid argument again. You can't be serious.
> 
> Let me count the ways
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Propaganda claiming Israel is not an Apartheid state is humorous, but it is propaganda attempting to deny the obvious. Some, moronic easily brainwashed pea brains, cut and paste the propaganda, or provide links to Hasbara sites, thinking they are making a point.

Apartheid is a word with a very specific legal meaning; as defined by The International Convention on the Suppression and Punishment of the crime of Apartheid, adopted by the United Nations General Assembly and ratified by the majority of UN member States. Zionist Israel and the USA are exceptions, supporters of Apartheid South Africa at the time of writing, to their shame.  The U.S. today a supporter of Apartheid Israel, and Israel the current Apartheid state, still refuse to sign the Convention because Israel is currently contravening the Apartheid Convention.

According to article 2. of that convention, the term "Apartheid" applies to the act of; "Committed for the purpose of establishing and maintaining dominance of one racial group of persons over any other racial group of persons and systematically oppressing them",

The Zionist Israeli "Population Registry Law of 1965" is designed to ensure Zionist Israel establishes and maintains dominance over the intrinsic Palestinian population.

The refusal of Zionist Israel to permit 5 million U.N. registered Palestinian refugees the right of return to their homeland, simply because they are non-Jewish, is another obvious example.

The many other Apartheid elements of Israeli law are too numerous to include in a short reply to your nonsense, but the Apartheid wall, separating non-Jews from the Jews in settlements and in areas surrounding the Zionist equivalent of Bantustans are other obvious examples.


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## Hollie (Aug 23, 2017)

montelatici said:


> Boston1 said:
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So.... we're to believe that the Arabs-Moslems masquerading as Pal'istanians are now a "race"?

"You such funny man"


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## Roudy (Aug 24, 2017)

montelatici said:


> Boston1 said:
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Propaganda claiming Israel is an apartheid state is even more humorous. Currently there are two million Muslims living in Israel as Israeli citizens with the same exact rights as the Jews.


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## Shusha (Aug 24, 2017)

Roudy said:


> Propaganda claiming Israel is an apartheid state is even more humorous. Currently there are two million Muslims living in Israel as Israeli citizens with the same exact rights as the Jews.



No way?!  Two million Muslims living in Israel as citizens with the exact same rights as Jews?!

How many Jews are living in "Palestine" and Gaza as citizens with the exact same rights as Arabs?


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## Boston1 (Aug 24, 2017)

Yeah, its typical Arab hasbara=nonsense

One lie after another in a desperate attempt to justify the racism and bigotry 

I'll temper my original and say the proposal to repair the temple mount is based of EQUAL rights for all. Why the Israelis are still willing to be so discriminated against I'll never know.


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## montelatici (Aug 24, 2017)

Shusha said:


> Roudy said:
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> > Propaganda claiming Israel is an apartheid state is even more humorous. Currently there are two million Muslims living in Israel as Israeli citizens with the same exact rights as the Jews.
> ...



What is it now 400,000 Jews living in Palestine with more rights than non-Jews.


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## montelatici (Aug 24, 2017)

Shusha said:


> Roudy said:
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> > Propaganda claiming Israel is an apartheid state is even more humorous. Currently there are two million Muslims living in Israel as Israeli citizens with the same exact rights as the Jews.
> ...



The Christians and Muslims living in Israel do not have the same rights as Jews.  Quit making things up.

"Within Israel, about 20 percent of the total population is of Palestinian descent, of whom about 80 percent are Muslim, 11 percent are Christian, and 9 percent are Druze. Christians suffer from the same discrimination and marginalization facing the rest of the Palestinian community. They are subject to discrimination in employment, unequal municipal funding, physical threats of violence from police, under-funded educational systems, discrimination in housing rights, and political marginalization. Today, Christians are the fastest shrinking segment of Israel’s population, in part due to these discriminatory policies."

How Israel Targets Its Palestinian Christian Citizens | HuffPost


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## BulletProof (Aug 24, 2017)

Roudy said:


> Propaganda claiming Israel is an apartheid state is even more humorous. Currently there are two million Muslims living in Israel as Israeli citizens with the same exact rights as the Jews.



Wow, you are so f1cking ignorant. Non-Jews don't have the same rights as Jews in Israel.  We can start with immigration laws which only allow Jews to immigrate.  We can move to education where jew-only schools get twice the government funding of other schools.   We can move to religious speech, where Christian speech is all but illegal in public.  Your mom must be ashamed of you, everyone else is.


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## Sixties Fan (Aug 24, 2017)

montelatici said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > Roudy said:
> ...



Area C is not "Palestine".  And it is called Judea and Samaria, the heartland of the Jewish Nation.

And Areas A and B may never become "Palestine".  And there are Zero Jews living in areas A and B.

How many Palestinians live in area C?  

---------
Which brings up the question of how many Arabs live in Area C. The range of answers to this question is truly staggering. Here are the figures from the UN Humanitarian Factsheet on Area C of the West Bank dated July 2011, updated through December, 2011: “An estimated 150,000 Palestinians live in Area C, including 27,500 Bedouin and other herders.”

http://www.jewishpress.com/news/analysis-so-how-many-arabs-live-in-area-c/2016/01/10/

----------
By 2014:

UN report: 300,000 Palestinians live in Area C of West Bank


----------



## Sixties Fan (Aug 24, 2017)

BulletProof said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Propaganda claiming Israel is an apartheid state is even more humorous. Currently there are two million Muslims living in Israel as Israeli citizens with the same exact rights as the Jews.
> ...



Monte knows very well the non Jews have the same rights as Jews in Israel.  
He negates everything on purpose.
He cannot help himself.  He is on his own Jihad to destroy Israel.


----------



## Roudy (Aug 24, 2017)

montelatici said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > Roudy said:
> ...


West Bank and Gaza are conquered territory, West Bank is ruled by the PA and Gaza was ethnically cleansed of it's Jews by Islamist terrorist thugs which rule it with an iron fist.  Convenient way of avoiding the fact that about two million Muslim Arabs live as Israeli citizens with equal rights and are very happy.  As far as the Jews in Judea and Samaria of ancient Israel, the more the merrier, why should Jews be excluded from moving into their ancient ancestral, religious, spiritual and cultural land?  This is nothing but Muslim hatred and intolerance of others, plain and simple.


----------



## Roudy (Aug 24, 2017)

montelatici said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > Roudy said:
> ...


We don't need an editorial from Huff and Puff Post to tell us about equal rights in Israel.  It is a fully recognized fact that all non Muslims enjoy equal rights in Israel.  That is why even the Bahaiis have their most holy temple in Haifa.  The Jews, not the Muslims, are fully trusted by all to protect people's religious rights.


----------



## Roudy (Aug 24, 2017)

BulletProof said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Propaganda claiming Israel is an apartheid state is even more humorous. Currently there are two million Muslims living in Israel as Israeli citizens with the same exact rights as the Jews.
> ...


Link?  Otherwise your internet Jihadi gibberish will ignored.


----------



## Sixties Fan (Aug 24, 2017)

Roudy said:


> montelatici said:
> 
> 
> > Shusha said:
> ...




You may want to edit it to NON JEWS  (not non Muslims) enjoy equal rights in Israel


----------



## Shusha (Aug 24, 2017)

montelatici said:


> What is it now 400,000 Jews living in Palestine with more rights than non-Jews.



Area C is NOT in "Palestine".  It is in a disputed area currently administered, by treaty, by Israel.  Israeli citizens all have the rights of Israeli citizens, regardless of ethnicity.  Palestinian citizens have all the rights of other Palestinian citizens.  Each citizen holds all the rights of the country they are citizens of.  

Requiring that "Palestine" or any portion of it, or the disputed territory remain Jew-free is a discriminatory practice which, when entrenched in law, as it is in "Palestine" amounts to the crime of apartheid, wouldn't you say?


----------



## Shusha (Aug 24, 2017)

BulletProof said:


> Wow, you are so f1cking ignorant. Non-Jews don't have the same rights as Jews in Israel.  We can start with immigration laws which only allow Jews to immigrate.  We can move to education where jew-only schools get twice the government funding of other schools.   We can move to religious speech, where Christian speech is all but illegal in public.  Your mom must be ashamed of you, everyone else is.



More accusations without proof. 

And it is a lie that Israel's immigration laws only allow Jews to immigrate.  The Return Law does not prohibit immigration, it simply provides for streamlined immigration for anyone belonging to the Jewish people.  It is no different than dozens of nations around the world which provide streamlined and preferential immigration (return) for people of that ancestry or ethnicity.


----------



## Boston1 (Aug 24, 2017)

BulletProof said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Propaganda claiming Israel is an apartheid state is even more humorous. Currently there are two million Muslims living in Israel as Israeli citizens with the same exact rights as the Jews.
> ...



LOL when your argument boils down to invective laced ranting you can bet you've had your ass handed to you, once again. 

So you've offered not a shred of evidence to support your wild claims. Odd, thats a first. Although you did manage to embarrass yourself once again 

Good job ;-)


----------



## BulletProof (Aug 24, 2017)

Shusha said:


> More accusations without proof.
> 
> And it is a lie that Israel's immigration laws only allow Jews to immigrate.  The Return Law does not prohibit immigration, it simply provides for streamlined immigration for anyone belonging to the Jewish people.  It is no different than dozens of nations around the world which provide streamlined and preferential immigration (return) for people of that ancestry or ethnicity.



Zionists are real idiots... thank you for doing your part to prove that.

You already admitted that your Zionist partner is a liar when he said everyone is treated equally under the Israeli law.  A streamlined immigration process for only Jews is not equality under the law.  And, you're a f1cking idiot if you really think that it's typical for countries to admit people based on ethnicity.  No western country practices that.  And, the term "streamlined" is a monster of an euphemism.


----------



## Boston1 (Aug 24, 2017)

BulletProof said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > More accusations without proof.
> ...



You're blithering at this point. 

Not one shred of evidence and not one single reference. 

Par for the course, you must be out golfing with that other racist Trump


----------



## Shusha (Aug 24, 2017)

BulletProof said:


> And, you're a f1cking idiot if you really think that it's typical for countries to admit people based on ethnicity.  No western country practices that.  And, the term "streamlined" is a monster of an euphemism.



Armenia.  Bulgaria.  Croatia.  Finland.  Ireland.  Greece.  Hungary.  Italy.  Lithuania.  Rwanda.  Serbia.  Spain.  South Korea.  Turkey.  

They all practice "that".


----------



## Shusha (Aug 24, 2017)

BulletProof said:


> You already admitted that your Zionist partner is a liar when he said everyone is treated equally under the Israeli law.



All Israeli citizens are equal, by law.


----------



## BulletProof (Aug 24, 2017)

Shusha said:


> Armenia.  Bulgaria.  Croatia.  Finland.  Ireland.  Greece.  Hungary.  Italy.  Lithuania.  Rwanda.  Serbia.  Spain.  South Korea.  Turkey.
> 
> They all practice "that".



It's a given that someone's skull has to be full of sh1t if they support Israel.  So, naturally, I wouldn't expect any better from you.  From your list, I picked Ireland as it seems to be one of the most western on your list (BTW, retard, I said western countries, South Korea, etc. are not "western countries").

I checked Ireland's government website and there's no citizenship granted based on ethnicity.  You f1cking moron.   The closest it gets is, "You may be an Irish citizen (or entitled to citizenship) based on when and where you, your parents or your grandparents/great-grandparents were born - or for how long your parents lived in Ireland before your birth."  And, that is watered down for people born after 2004.


----------



## Shusha (Aug 24, 2017)

BulletProof said:


> I checked Ireland's government website and there's no citizenship granted based on ethnicity.  ...



You didn't look hard enough. Foreign-born children of Irish descent can pass on their Irish citizenship (automatically!) indefinitely to their descendants.  Its too late for me, as I did not register in time, but theoretically, had I done so, my children would be (automatically) Irish.  And their children and theirs and theirs, indefinitely.  Not a "streamlined" process -- automatic Irish citizenship.


----------



## Boston1 (Aug 24, 2017)

BulletProof said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > Armenia.  Bulgaria.  Croatia.  Finland.  Ireland.  Greece.  Hungary.  Italy.  Lithuania.  Rwanda.  Serbia.  Spain.  South Korea.  Turkey.
> ...



LOL once again your argument falls flat on its face. Not a shred of evidence, just a pile of rubbish


----------



## Sixties Fan (Aug 24, 2017)

BulletProof said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > Armenia.  Bulgaria.  Croatia.  Finland.  Ireland.  Greece.  Hungary.  Italy.  Lithuania.  Rwanda.  Serbia.  Spain.  South Korea.  Turkey.
> ...



Right of return - Wikipedia


----------



## BulletProof (Aug 24, 2017)

Shusha said:


> You didn't look hard enough. Foreign-born children of Irish descent can pass on their Irish citizenship (automatically!) indefinitely to their descendants.  Its too late for me, as I did not register in time, but theoretically, had I done so, my children would be (automatically) Irish.  And their children and theirs and theirs, indefinitely.  Not a "streamlined" process -- automatic Irish citizenship.



Citizenship is automatic to someone born to an Irish citizen.  Yes, that citizenship can be passed on.  That has nothing to do with citizenship through ethnicity.   There is no citizenship in Ireland based on ethnicity.   Why is this simple thing too complicated for you to understand?


----------



## Shusha (Aug 24, 2017)

BulletProof said:


> Citizenship is automatic to someone born to an Irish citizen.  Yes, that citizenship can be passed on.  That has nothing to do with citizenship through ethnicity.   There is no citizenship in Ireland based on ethnicity.   Why is this simple thing too complicated for you to understand?



The citizenship is based on descendancy.  It is exactly the same with Israel.  Its based on descendancy.  If you are a descendant of an Irish great-grandparent -- then you automatically get Irish citizenship.  If you are a descendant of a Jewish grandparent -- then you have a streamlined process for Israeli citizenship.


----------



## Kondor3 (Aug 24, 2017)

Disassemble Muslim structures on the Temple Mount, stone by stone, number them, and prepare re-assembly instructions.


Pack up the disassembled Muslim structures and reassembly instructions and ship them to the Saudis in Riyadh, along with a check to cover reassembly labor.


Spiritually cleanse the site through appropriate Jewish cleansing rituals.


Rebuild the Temple.


Ban Muslims from visiting the Temple Mount.


----------



## BulletProof (Aug 24, 2017)

Shusha said:


> The citizenship is based on descendancy.  It is exactly the same with Israel.  Its based on descendancy.  If you are a descendant of an Irish great-grandparent -- then you automatically get Irish citizenship.  If you are a descendant of a Jewish grandparent -- then you have a streamlined process for Israeli citizenship.



Jews get citizenship in Israel for being Jews, not for having recent ancestors who were Israeli citizens.   You really are f1cking retarded if you think the two are the same thing.


----------



## Kondor3 (Aug 24, 2017)

TNHarley said:


> If the Jews were to do something like that, dont you think that would start a war? Like a REAL war. A big one. Not a "conflict?"


Don't look now, but Islam is as weak as a kitten in our present age... couldn't happen to a nicer Warrior Cult... 

If the Jews are gonna "make a move" on the Temple Mount, now's the time to do it... actually, any time in the next generation or so...


----------



## BulletProof (Aug 24, 2017)

Sixties Fan said:


> Right of return - Wikipedia



Sh1t-for-brains Zionoists insist Israel treats everyone equally.  But, even native-born Arabs displaced in 1948 are denied the "Right to return", but Jews who never were citizens of Israel, nor have any ancestors who were ever citizens of Israel, are allowed "Right of Return"
 (citizenship).


----------



## Shusha (Aug 24, 2017)

BulletProof said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > The citizenship is based on descendancy.  It is exactly the same with Israel.  Its based on descendancy.  If you are a descendant of an Irish great-grandparent -- then you automatically get Irish citizenship.  If you are a descendant of a Jewish grandparent -- then you have a streamlined process for Israeli citizenship.
> ...



The Jewish people get citizenship in Israel because Israel is the nation which was formed for the Jewish people in the homeland for the Jewish people.  Its a really common concept in world history and common in practice.  The fact that Israel just re-constituted her nation after all this time is no reason NOT to follow the same common practice.  (And besides, be careful what corner you paint the Palestinians into.  They have no nation (officially, yet) and thus no citizens.  And a big diaspora.  And thus have no right to return, according to you.)


----------



## Boston1 (Aug 24, 2017)

Kondor3 said:


> Disassemble Muslim structures on the Temple Mount, stone by stone, number them, and prepare re-assembly instructions.
> 
> 
> Pack up the disassembled Muslim structures and reassembly instructions and ship them to the Saudis in Riyadh, along with a check to cover reassembly labor.
> ...



So tempting


----------



## Shusha (Aug 24, 2017)

Boston1 said:


> Kondor3 said:
> 
> 
> > Disassemble Muslim structures on the Temple Mount, stone by stone, number them, and prepare re-assembly instructions.
> ...



If there is going to be a war (and there is going to be a war), Israel should pick the time of her choosing.  There is absolutely no reason why the Jewish people should continue to be second class citizens in her own nation.  Almost time....the Muslim world has not quite torn itself apart yet, but its getting there.


----------



## BulletProof (Aug 24, 2017)

Shusha said:


> The Jewish people get citizenship in Israel because Israel is the nation which was formed for the Jewish people in the homeland for the Jewish people.



Which is it, the lie that Israel treats every ethnicity equally, or that Israel is the Jewish homeland?


----------



## Sixties Fan (Aug 24, 2017)

BulletProof said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > The Jewish people get citizenship in Israel because Israel is the nation which was formed for the Jewish people in the homeland for the Jewish people.
> ...



Not amazingly, you have posted about everything Israel but what the thread is about.

Do you derail often?


----------



## BulletProof (Aug 24, 2017)

Sixties Fan said:


> Not amazingly, you have posted about everything Israel but what the thread is about.
> 
> Do you derail often?



I did go off track.  But, I already demolished the OP in my first reply. There is no temple there to repair, contrary the thread title.  Israel has no legal right nor religious reason to rebuild the temple.   Nothing more needs to be said on the top.


----------



## Indeependent (Aug 24, 2017)

BulletProof said:


> Sixties Fan said:
> 
> 
> > Not amazingly, you have posted about everything Israel but what the thread is about.
> ...


The archaeologists have already established that there are 19 levels of streets and several have already been dug up.
Every conquering nation built a city above the last city.


----------



## Boston1 (Aug 24, 2017)

BulletProof said:


> Sixties Fan said:
> 
> 
> > Not amazingly, you have posted about everything Israel but what the thread is about.
> ...



LOL I like how you think you actually refuted anything. So tell us more about all the links and sources you quoted to prove that Israel has no religious connection to the Temple Mount LMAO


----------



## BulletProof (Aug 24, 2017)

Boston1 said:


> LOL I like how you think you actually refuted anything. So tell us more about all the links and sources you quoted to prove that Israel has no religious connection to the Temple Mount LMAO



I said Israel has no reason to rebuild the Temple.  I didn't say anything about a connection.  Maybe you need to get the sh1t cleaned out of your ears.  Anyway, I don't know a religious reason for Israel to rebuild the Temple.  If you know of one, please share.   The only thing you'll share is your ignorance of Talmudism.


----------



## Indeependent (Aug 24, 2017)

A prophet is required to build the Temple.
It doesn't mean the area can't be cleaned up.


----------



## Shusha (Aug 24, 2017)

Why would we need a religious reason?  Why not an historical one?


----------



## BulletProof (Aug 24, 2017)

Shusha said:


> Why would we need a religious reason?  Why not an historical one?



There's a religious reason not to rebuild the temple. For Jews, the Messiah will rebuild it when he comes.  For Christians, Christ has come and he is the new Temple.  For Zionist Evangelicals, f1ck them all the way to Hell.

A 1300+ year-old grand building beats a new building for historical points.


----------



## Boston1 (Aug 24, 2017)

Actually Genius you said both, but nice try  

"Israel has no legal right nor religious reason to rebuild the temple. Nothing more needs to be said on the top."

And THEN you went on to NOT provide one shred of backing for your nonsense. As if I'm surprised. 

Oh and I don't do Talmudism, whatever that is. I defend Israel's tribal rights to a homeland. An independent homeland for the judaic nation. I don't care what religion they practice. Thats not the problem. The issue is one of tribal rights as far as I'm concerned.


----------



## Shusha (Aug 24, 2017)

BulletProof said:


> A 1300+ year-old grand building beats a new building for historical points.



Myself, I don't agree with Boston that the Dome or the Mosque should be destroyed.  I don't see any reason why a Temple can't or shouldn't be built there in addition to the Mosque and Dome.  

Why shouldn't the Jewish people have their historical monument restored?


----------



## BulletProof (Aug 24, 2017)

Shusha said:


> Why shouldn't the Jewish people have their historical monument restored?



Because that's the Messiah's job to restore it... What don't you get?


----------



## Boston1 (Aug 24, 2017)

BulletProof said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > Why would we need a religious reason?  Why not an historical one?
> ...



Sounds like another pie in the sky idea to me. So you think some invisible man in the sky is going to come and make everything all better ? You are a loon. 

Also there is no 1300+ year old building up there. The structures are nearly 100% new as of about 1990 when massive demolition and remodeling occurred to replace the ALUMINUM dome that was installed in another massive remodel in the 1940s. 

http://vc.bridgew.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1422&context=br_rev

You might want to actually study up on what your spewing rather than simply go on embarrassing yourself this way Bully hole ;-)


----------



## Boston1 (Aug 24, 2017)

Shusha said:


> BulletProof said:
> 
> 
> > A 1300+ year-old grand building beats a new building for historical points.
> ...



I'd be all for it except that you're never going to get the radical Arabs in the area to play nice. There's room for all up there except that some are hesitant to allow metal detectors because they have every intention of packing and eventually, murdering innocent Israeli's both Arab and Judaic


----------



## BulletProof (Aug 24, 2017)

Boston1 said:


> And THEN you went on to NOT provide one shred of backing for your nonsense.



You said Israel has a religion reason (or connection) to rebuild a temple.  It's not my job to show that you don't have that reason.  It's your job to show and provide that reason.  Don't be so full of bullsh1t.



> Oh and I don't do Talmudism, whatever that is. I defend Israel's tribal rights to a homeland. An independent homeland for the judaic nation. I don't care what religion they practice. Thats not the problem. The issue is one of tribal rights as far as I'm concerned.



You are completely ignorant.  They're Talmudists.   They practice a religion based on the Talmud.  They're not a tribe.  Show that they're a tribe.


----------



## Boston1 (Aug 24, 2017)

BulletProof said:


> Boston1 said:
> 
> 
> > And THEN you went on to NOT provide one shred of backing for your nonsense.
> ...



LOL so you get busted and can't admit it, why am I not surprised. 

Also I made it clear I don't care what religion they practice, they are Judaic people from a lineage of people who developed from the Hyksos who have existed in the area since the early to mid Bronze Age. 

They have a tribal heritage and homeland EXACTLY where they are, in Israel.


----------



## BulletProof (Aug 24, 2017)

Boston1 said:


> Sounds like another pie in the sky idea to me. So you think some invisible man in the sky is going to come and make everything all better ? You are a loon.



I'm not waiting for a man on the sky.  The Jews are.  You're calling those jewish bastards loons.  How anti-Jewish of you.  



> Also there is no 1300+ year old building up there. The structures are nearly 100% new as of about 1990 when massive demolition and remodeling occurred to replace the ALUMINUM dome that was installed in another massive remodel in the 1940s.



The dome might be fairly new.  But, much of the building is original.  And, that new dome matches the old dome.  If a new temple is built, it wouldn't look anything like the old temple, nor would have any components of the old temple.

BTW, let me congratulate you  for your courage to call Jews "loons".


----------



## BulletProof (Aug 24, 2017)

Boston1 said:


> Also I made it clear I don't care what religion they practice, they are Judaic people from a lineage of people who developed from the Hyksos who have existed in the area since the early to mid Bronze Age.
> 
> They have a tribal heritage and homeland EXACTLY where they are, in Israel.



The vast majority of the Israeli Jew population immigrated there recently.  The only thing that connects them is Talmudism.


----------



## Boston1 (Aug 25, 2017)

BulletProof said:


> Boston1 said:
> 
> 
> > Sounds like another pie in the sky idea to me. So you think some invisible man in the sky is going to come and make everything all better ? You are a loon.
> ...



LMAO you are daft aren't you. first "the dome might be fairly new" you are an idiot, the gold is electroplated, the frame is aluminum and the underlying structure has fallen down and been completely rebuild so many times it defies our finest restoration experts to count them all. You are a fool if you believe your own lies. LOOK AT THE INFORMATION PROVIDED. 

Before you embarrass yourself any further

Oh and once again, religion has nothing to do with it. These are tribal rights we are talking about.


----------



## Boston1 (Aug 25, 2017)

BulletProof said:


> Boston1 said:
> 
> 
> > Also I made it clear I don't care what religion they practice, they are Judaic people from a lineage of people who developed from the Hyksos who have existed in the area since the early to mid Bronze Age.
> ...



The vast majority of the Judaic people ? are still judaic people LOL 
NEXT


----------



## Roudy (Aug 25, 2017)

BulletProof said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > The citizenship is based on descendancy.  It is exactly the same with Israel.  Its based on descendancy.  If you are a descendant of an Irish great-grandparent -- then you automatically get Irish citizenship.  If you are a descendant of a Jewish grandparent -- then you have a streamlined process for Israeli citizenship.
> ...


Yeah, and?


----------



## Roudy (Aug 25, 2017)

BulletProof said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > The Jewish people get citizenship in Israel because Israel is the nation which was formed for the Jewish people in the homeland for the Jewish people.
> ...


But Israel does treat all its citizens...Jews, Muslims, Christians, and Bahaiis equally.  Do you have a source that says otherwise?


----------



## fncceo (Aug 25, 2017)

BulletProof said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > The citizenship is based on descendancy.  It is exactly the same with Israel.  Its based on descendancy.  If you are a descendant of an Irish great-grandparent -- then you automatically get Irish citizenship.  If you are a descendant of a Jewish grandparent -- then you have a streamlined process for Israeli citizenship.
> ...



I can smell your jealousy.  Sorry you don't get to live in Israel.  You wouldn't like it anyway, too many J-O-O-S.


----------



## keepitreal (Aug 25, 2017)

The Temple will be rebuilt, make no mistake about it


----------



## BulletProof (Aug 25, 2017)

keepitreal said:


> The Temple will be rebuilt, make no mistake about it



Israel hasn't even bothered to raise their hex flag in the area, let alone demolish the Dome of the Rock.  Israel has no plans to build a Temple, whatf1ckingever you think to the contrary. It's not going to be rebuilt any time soon.

 Sorry, reality differs from your insane delusions, make no mistake about it.


----------



## Challenger (Aug 25, 2017)

fncceo said:


> BulletProof said:
> 
> 
> > Shusha said:
> ...


Seems Jewish people prefer America...Can Israel bring home its million US expats?


----------



## Challenger (Aug 25, 2017)

Roudy said:


> BulletProof said:
> 
> 
> > Shusha said:
> ...


Probably true, so long as they are Zionists, then again non-Zionists are treated equally brutally...Real Jews does not believe in Israel: Rabbi Mintzberg


----------



## fncceo (Aug 25, 2017)

Challenger said:


> Seems Jewish people prefer America



Why not?  Jews were instrumental in building America.  Why should we leave it?  If you're not happy with Jews in America, you're always welcome to leave.


----------



## BulletProof (Aug 25, 2017)

Challenger said:


> Seems Jewish people prefer America...Can Israel bring home its million US expats?



Many Jews know that Israel isn't Israel.

The Old Testament teaches that the Messiah will restore Israel.  So, Jews are not religiously Zionists.  Christians believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Messiah, and he restored Israel by establishing the church.  So, Christians aren't Zionists.  As for Zionist Evangelicals, f1ck them all the way to Hell.


----------



## Challenger (Aug 25, 2017)

fncceo said:


> Challenger said:
> 
> 
> > Seems Jewish people prefer America
> ...



Being British and living in the UK, I really don't care about Jewish people in America; they're welcome to go and live wherever they like as far as I'm concerned, including next door to me if the urge takes them. Seems a lot of them really don't want to live in the "promised land" Zionist paradise though, tends to debunk the myth about "yearning to return" doesn't it?


----------



## Challenger (Aug 25, 2017)

Shusha said:


> BulletProof said:
> 
> 
> > A 1300+ year-old grand building beats a new building for historical points.
> ...



I agree, find a genuine descendant of a 1st century CE Temple cultist that wants their temple back and we'll talk.


----------



## Challenger (Aug 25, 2017)

BulletProof said:


> Challenger said:
> 
> 
> > Seems Jewish people prefer America...Can Israel bring home its million US expats?
> ...


Although Christan Zionists (and Muslim Zionists) do exist and have facilitated the Zionist project in the past and continue to support it today.
Christian Zionism - Wikipedia 
Muslim Zionism Organization


----------



## Challenger (Aug 25, 2017)

Indeependent said:


> BulletProof said:
> 
> 
> > Sixties Fan said:
> ...


...but not on the so called "Temple Mount" which is the point.


----------



## Challenger (Aug 25, 2017)

Boston1 said:


> BulletProof said:
> 
> 
> > Sixties Fan said:
> ...


Modern Isreal didn't exist when there was a monotheistic Temple cult in Jerusalem, and even then the city was situated in the "Kingdom of Judah" or "Judea" never in "Israel" in any event. Happy to help.


----------



## Boston1 (Aug 25, 2017)

Challenged, how I missed you ;-) 

And the thread has degraded into Jew bashing and not Jew bashing, just like old times isn't it.


----------



## Roudy (Aug 25, 2017)

BulletProof said:


> Challenger said:
> 
> 
> > Seems Jewish people prefer America...Can Israel bring home its million US expats?
> ...


So you guys have no proof Israel treats its non Muslims differently  other than this irrelvant bullshit about a cult member from an Islamist site then.


----------



## Roudy (Aug 25, 2017)

Challenger said:


> fncceo said:
> 
> 
> > Challenger said:
> ...


People migrate to places where there are more opportunities for them.  Why should Jews be any different?  It isn't like millions of you Muslims didn't migrate to countries like the UK and rest of Europe, and they aren't now stuck with you guys.


----------



## fanger (Aug 25, 2017)

Roudy said:


> Challenger said:
> 
> 
> > fncceo said:
> ...


Were there not enough opportunities for you to go to israel when you left the country of your birth, or were you worried you might be received as  an Arab immigrant?


----------



## Shusha (Aug 25, 2017)

So, back to the topic...

Given that Jordan and Israel are both, by treaty (meaning international law), obligated to ensure religious freedom for people of all faiths, it seems to me that to prevent the Jewish people from that is a terrible violation of their rights.


----------



## Sixties Fan (Aug 25, 2017)

Shusha said:


> So, back to the topic...
> 
> Given that Jordan and Israel are both, by treaty (meaning international law), obligated to ensure religious freedom for people of all faiths, it seems to me that to prevent the Jewish people from that is a terrible violation of their rights.



It is my understanding that the compromise between Jordan and Israel was to allow Jews to ascend the Temple Mount, freely.  But not to pray.

In the past two decades the Arabs have been making the effort of not allowing Jews to ascend the Mount at all.

The understanding needs to go back to what it was.
Unfortunately the Jordanian King is not like his father and is looking more towards his needs and not about honoring treaties of any kind with Israel.


----------



## Shusha (Aug 25, 2017)

Sixties Fan said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > So, back to the topic...
> ...



That has been a courtesy extended by Israel.  It contravenes the actual treaty, which contains no such language.


----------



## Sixties Fan (Aug 25, 2017)

Shusha said:


> Sixties Fan said:
> 
> 
> > Shusha said:
> ...



How is it different from what Moshe Dayan and others agreed with Jordan as far as management of the Temple goes from 1967 on?

Are you talking about the Peace treaty with Jordan which was much later?

Could you post what the treaty said so that everyone can read it?  Thanks.


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## Shusha (Aug 25, 2017)

Lets be clear what the treaty says. Article 9 of the Treaty of Peace Between the State of Israel and the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan states:

_Article 9. Places of Historical and Religious Significance and Interfaith Relations 

1. Each Party will provide freedom of access to places of religious and historical significance. 

2. In this regard, in accordance with the Washington Declaration, Israel respects the present special role of the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan in Muslim Holy shrines in Jerusalem. When negotiations on the permanent status will take place, Israel will give high priority to the Jordanian historic role in these shrines. 

3. The Parties will act together to promote interfaith relations among the three monotheistic religions, with the aim of working towards religious understanding, moral commitment, freedom of religious worship, and tolerance and peace._


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## fanger (Aug 25, 2017)

the Israeli government imposes entry limits to Temple Mount for political and security reasons. In addition, Jewish law imposes restrictions on entering Temple Mount.
Temple Mount entry restrictions - Wikipedia

Would you encourage people to break the law?


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## Shusha (Aug 25, 2017)

I'm not encouraging people to break the law.  I'm encouraging human rights law which demands freedom of worship for all people be followed.  I understand the current Israeli law is one where security trumps humanitarian law because Muslims are pissy-face about having to share a holy site they think they have rightfully stolen and now belongs only to them.  

I'm asking for the international Muslim community to uphold human rights but they don't seem to be able to do that.


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## Sixties Fan (Aug 25, 2017)

I found this article :

The Temple Mount and the Peace Treaty


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## Boston1 (Aug 25, 2017)

You must have missed my note

Finger, I missed you. 

Stinky though you be 

;-)


----------



## Roudy (Aug 25, 2017)

fanger said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Challenger said:
> ...


Ha ha ha, you are very ignorant, there is no such thing there.  Israel is home to Jews from all over the world.  It is the one place where a Jew truly feels at home.  I had been to Israel 8 times and the last time I lived there a year before I finally moved to the US, mostly because I had family and many friends already here.  Every time I went to Israel I always made sure I visited the Wailing Wall.  There is no reason for Jews not to rebuild their temple, on basically what is the holiest spot in their faith, now that they control it.   Why don't you go back to "Palestine" and put your money where your big mouth is?


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## Shusha (Aug 25, 2017)

Sixties Fan said:


> I found this article :
> 
> The Temple Mount and the Peace Treaty



Yes. Exactly this. 

How can we make "peace" with Arabs if they refuse to uphold treaties and basic human rights?


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## Indeependent (Aug 25, 2017)

Challenger said:


> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> > BulletProof said:
> ...


No my friend...*On* the Temple Mount.
They already dug up one level open to tourists.


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## BulletProof (Aug 25, 2017)

Boston1 said:


> And the thread has degraded into Jew bashing and not Jew bashing, just like old times isn't it.



No, the thread didn't degrade.  The OP is Jew-bashing bait.


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## teddyearp (Aug 25, 2017)

Challenger said:


> Probably true, so long as they are Zionists, then again non-Zionists are treated equally brutally...Real Jews does not believe in Israel: Rabbi Mintzberg


Haha, another "Real Jew". And if this guy is so against Israel, why does he live there and enjoy all the rights the state of Israel provides, including his disdain for the state? I've been through his neighborhood in Jerusalem.


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## teddyearp (Aug 25, 2017)

Sixties Fan said:


> It is my understanding that the compromise between Jordan and Israel was to allow Jews to ascend the Temple Mount, freely.  <snip>



And there lies another rub. Non-Muslims can only acces the Temple Mount Monday-Thursday.  Three hours in the morning and one hour just after noon.  Only through one entrance. That is not at all freely.  Not. At. All.


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## teddyearp (Aug 25, 2017)

I do not think that the existing buildings on the Temple Mount should be razed. This is about the third thread about religious rights on the Mount. I think it is high time that the treaty is upheld and that the Temple Mount should be freely accessible to all.


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## K9Buck (Aug 25, 2017)

Eloy said:


> Boston1 said:
> 
> 
> > The Temple Mount has been the source for endless headaches, the Arabs have used it as a flashpoint for both violence and incitement for far too long.
> ...



LOL.  Jordan waged war on Israel, repeatedly, and LOST.  Losing territory often happens in border wars.  Next you'll be calling for Poland, Denmark, France, etc. to return land to Germany.


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## BulletProof (Aug 25, 2017)

LOL.  Jordan waged war on Israel, repeatedly, and LOST.  Losing territory often happens in border wars.  Next you'll be calling for Poland, Denmark, France, etc. to return land to Germany.[/QUOTE]

Zionists are so stupid.  Jordan has never started a war with Israel. And, when Israel captured Jordanian land, it was war Israel started with a full-scale surprise attack.

You worshipers of Antichrist really need to get a clue.


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## K9Buck (Aug 25, 2017)

BulletProof said:


> teddyearp said:
> 
> 
> > LOL.  Jordan waged war on Israel, repeatedly, and LOST.  Losing territory often happens in border wars.  Next you'll be calling for Poland, Denmark, France, etc. to return land to Germany.
> ...



You're a liar and now on my "ignore" list.  Bye liar.


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## BulletProof (Aug 26, 2017)

K9Buck said:


> BulletProof said:
> 
> 
> > teddyearp said:
> ...



Go crawl back under your slimy rock, racist Zionist.

"Jordan waged war on Israel, repeatedly, and LOST" -- lying faggot Zionist claim.

In 1967, Israel launched a "preemptive" attack against Egypt, catching Egypt by surprise and wiping out most of the Egyptian air-force on the ground... ", soon Israel turned to Jordan: "The Jordanian defenders, who were heavily dug-in, fiercely resisted the attack. All of the Israeli officers except for two company commanders were killed, and the fighting was mostly led by individual soldiers. The fighting was conducted at close quarters in trenches and bunkers, and was often hand-to-hand. The Israelis captured the position after four hours of heavy fighting..."


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## Roudy (Aug 26, 2017)

When Muslim Jordanians were in control of Jerusalem, they forbade Jews and Christians access to the holy sites.  Excuse us, but we aren't  weeping any tears for Muslims who point their asses to this so called "holy mosque" five times a day while they face Mecca for prayers. 

Now that Israel is in control of Jerusalem, I have yet to hear a single reason why Israel should not rebuild the holiest temple in the Jewish faith, on the most sacred land in the faith. Just a lot of braying, name calling, and whining by the terrorist apologists. 

One has to always remember, if the shoe were on the Arab Muslim Palestinian foot, would they let a single Jew even live, let alone keep their holy sites intact and allow them to pray there.


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## Shusha (Aug 26, 2017)

We have to be honest here.  From Moshe Dayan to Netanyahu the ENTIRE reason the Jewish people are voluntarily turning away from their absolute right to religious freedom is because the international community of Muslims will have a freaking "Holy War" if they have to respect another religion.  (Sorry, did I say "holy war"?  I meant "peaceful protest"). 

We (as in the entire planet) are literally SO afraid of Islam and so intimidated by Islam and their fanaticism that we are willing to deny people the basic human rights that we (as in the entire planet) have been working so hard to entrench in law and in human experience. 

And we let them get away with it instead of standing against it.  Which we should.

The real question is why the entire world is not standing up for human rights behind the Jewish people.


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## BulletProof (Aug 26, 2017)

Shusha said:


> We have to be honest here.  From Moshe Dayan to Netanyahu the ENTIRE reason the Jewish people are voluntarily turning away from their absolute right to religious freedom is because the international community of Muslims will have a freaking "Holy War" if they have to respect another religion.  (Sorry, did I say "holy war"?  I meant "peaceful protest").



Talmudists, so-called Jews, have no religious reason to build a Temple.  What's the deal, to be Zionist do you need to blow our your brains (yet, mysteriously, I don't see bullet holes in their skulls)?  It's like you Zionists spend your time seeing who can out Stupid the other, in service of Antichrist (those who deny Jesus is the Christ.  I have to say that because Zionists are too stupid to know the definition of Antichrist.)

Jews have no interest in building a Temple.  Idiots.

No, we are not afraid of Muslims.  You feel free to bash Muslims because no one is afraid of them.  



> The real question is why the entire world is not standing up for human rights behind the Jewish people.



Jews human?  Why should I consider them to be human when they don't consider gentiles to be human?


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## Shusha (Aug 26, 2017)

BulletProof said:


> ...Jews, have no religious reason to build a Temple.



Jews have a human rights reason to build a Temple.


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## keepitreal (Aug 26, 2017)

BulletProof said:


> keepitreal said:
> 
> 
> > The Temple will be rebuilt, make no mistake about it
> ...





BulletProof said:


> Sorry, reality differs from your insane delusions, make no mistake about it


ROFLMMFAO

Sorry, God's Word differs from your insane proclamation!
The reality is, Gods Word is infallible, make no mistake about it!


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## Roudy (Aug 26, 2017)

BulletProof said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > We have to be honest here.  From Moshe Dayan to Netanyahu the ENTIRE reason the Jewish people are voluntarily turning away from their absolute right to religious freedom is because the international community of Muslims will have a freaking "Holy War" if they have to respect another religion.  (Sorry, did I say "holy war"?  I meant "peaceful protest").
> ...


So many lies, hatred, and insanity  in this sock's response, one doesn't even know where to start.  If Jews had no interest in rebuilding their temple, they wouldn't be making the trip to pray at its remains on a regular basis, "idiot".


----------



## teddyearp (Aug 26, 2017)

BulletProof said:


> teddyearp said:
> 
> 
> > LOL.  Jordan waged war on Israel, repeatedly, and LOST.  Losing territory often happens in border wars.  Next you'll be calling for Poland, Denmark, France, etc. to return land to Germany.
> ...


Don't know why you changed the quote to attribute it to me. Those are not my words. Liar.


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## Shusha (Aug 26, 2017)

Roudy said:


> So many lies, hatred, and insanity  in this sock's response, one doesn't even know where to start.  If Jews had no interest in rebuilding their temple, they wouldn't be making the trip to pray at its remains on a regular basis, "idiot".



Nor would there be the Temple Institute.

_The Temple Institute is dedicated to every aspect of the Holy Temple of Jerusalem, and the central role it fulfilled, and will once again fulfill, in the spiritual wellbeing of both Israel and all the nations of the world. The Institute's work touches upon the history of the Holy Temple's past, an understanding of the present day, and the Divine promise of Israel's future. The Institute's activities include education, research, and development. The Temple Institute's ultimate goal is to see Israel rebuild the Holy Temple on Mount Moriah in Jerusalem, in accord with the Biblical commandments. _


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## BulletProof (Aug 26, 2017)

Roudy said:


> So many lies, hatred, and insanity  in this sock's response, one doesn't even know where to start.  If Jews had no interest in rebuilding their temple, they wouldn't be making the trip to pray at its remains on a regular basis, "idiot".



Truly, two things are infinite, the universe and the ignorance of Zionists. And, truly, it get tiring calling Zionist idiots ignorant over and over and over.   Nothing of the Temple remains.  No Jews pray at its remains because there are no remains.  And, even if they did, it would be because it's the remains of the old temple, which doesn't equate in a desire to build a new temple.  After your dad was raped and killed and you cry at his grave, does that crying mean you want a new dad?


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## BulletProof (Aug 26, 2017)

keepitreal said:


> Sorry, God's Word differs from your insane proclamation!
> The reality is, Gods Word is infallible, make no mistake about it!



Zionist Evangelicals are exceedingly ignorant.  You believe lies about what the Bible teaches.  You believe lies about what Jews are.   The reality is, God's Word is infallible, make no mistake about it:  God's word says to the _Jews, _"you are of your father the devil".  And, to _Isreal, _"you are not my people, and I am not your God."  And, those people you call Jews are nothing but Antichrist Talmudists.


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## Shusha (Aug 26, 2017)

BulletProof said:


> And, even if they did, it would be because it's the remains of the old temple, which doesn't equate in a desire to build a new temple.  After your dad was raped and killed and you cry at his grave, does that crying mean you want a new dad?



So, if the Dome and the Mosque were destroyed, no Muslim would want to rebuild them, right?


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## Roudy (Aug 26, 2017)

BulletProof said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > So many lies, hatred, and insanity  in this sock's response, one doesn't even know where to start.  If Jews had no interest in rebuilding their temple, they wouldn't be making the trip to pray at its remains on a regular basis, "idiot".
> ...


Actually it's you, sock of a sock, who's ignorant. 

Western Wall | pilgrimage site, Jerusalem

Western Wall, Hebrew Ha-Kotel Ha-Maʿaravi, also called Wailing Wall, in the Old City of Jerusalem, a place of prayer and pilgrimage sacred to the Jewish people. *It is the only remains of the Second Temple of Jerusalem, held to be uniquely holy by the ancient Jews *and destroyed by the Romans in 70 ce. The authenticity of the Western Wall of has been confirmed by tradition, history, and archaeological research; the wall dates from about the 2nd century bce, though its upper sections were added at a later date.


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## Roudy (Aug 26, 2017)

Again, why shouldn't Isrsel rebuild something that has been so holy too it's people and the Jewish faith? 

Western Wall - Wikipedia

The *Western Wall*, *Wailing Wall* or *Kotel* (Hebrew: 

 הַכֹּתֶל הַמַּעֲרָבִי‎ , translit.: _HaKotel HaMa'aravi_; Ashkenazic pronunciation: _HaKosel HaMa'arovi_; Arabic: حائط البراق‎‎, translit.: _Ḥā'iṭ al-Burāq_, translat.: the Buraq Wall, or Arabic: المبكى‎‎ _al-Mabkā_: the Place of Weeping) is an ancient limestone wall in the Old City of Jerusalem. It is a relatively small segment of a far longer ancient retaining wall, known also in its entirety as the "Western Wall". The wall was originally erected as part of the expansion of the Second Jewish Temple begun by Herod the Great, which resulted in the encasement of the natural, steep hill known to Jews and Christians as the Temple Mount, in a large rectangular structure topped by a huge flat platform, thus creating more space for the Temple itself and its auxiliary buildings.


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## Shusha (Aug 26, 2017)

And the space itself is sacred and holy, whether a building is standing or not.  Or am I wrong on that?


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## Roudy (Aug 26, 2017)

Shusha said:


> And the space itself is sacred and holy, whether a building is standing or not.  Or am I wrong on that?


Yes of course!


----------



## Shusha (Aug 26, 2017)

Roudy said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > And the space itself is sacred and holy, whether a building is standing or not.  Or am I wrong on that?
> ...



That is my understanding.  The building serves the sacred space, not the other way around.  Just wanting to bow to those with a greater religious knowledge of Judaism that me!


----------



## Roudy (Aug 26, 2017)

Shusha said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Shusha said:
> ...


Who me?  Well, my knowledge, maybe.  I am more or less quite secular.  Live and let live.

Thanks for the complement though.


----------



## BulletProof (Aug 26, 2017)

Roudy said:


> Actually it's you, sock of a sock, who's ignorant.
> 
> Western Wall | pilgrimage site, Jerusalem



What the f1ck is wrong with you?  You get pwnd for saying ignorant things and then you double down on ignorance instead of crawling back under a slimy rock where Zionists live.  Your source says that the wall was started in the second century BC.  What it doesn't tell you is:  While the wall was started in the second century BC, most (if not all) of that wall you see the Jews worshiping was built after the temple was destroyed.  While the wall was started in the second century BC, the temple was built in sixth century BC.  Most of all, oh yeah, it's not pat of the temple.  It's a retaining wall, ignoramus, that was built to expand the ground around the temple.

You might try Wikipedia. Apparently the quality of Britannica has gone into the toilet.

"Early Jewish texts referred to a "western wall of the Temple",[7] but there is doubt whether the texts were referring to the outer, retaining wall called today "the Western Wall", or to the western wall of the actual Temple."  - Wikipedia acknowledges the wall isn't part of the actual temple.

You should start chanting to yourself that you're ignorant, so maybe you'll do more thinking next time you speak.


----------



## BulletProof (Aug 26, 2017)

Shusha said:


> Nor would there be the Temple Institute.
> 
> _The Temple Institute is dedicated to every aspect of the Holy Temple of Jerusalem, and the central role it fulfilled, and will once again fulfill, in the spiritual wellbeing of both Israel and all the nations of the world. The Institute's work touches upon the history of the Holy Temple's past, an understanding of the present day, and the Divine promise of Israel's future. The Institute's activities include education, research, and development. The Temple Institute's ultimate goal is to see Israel rebuild the Holy Temple on Mount Moriah in Jerusalem, in accord with the Biblical commandments. _



Don't be retarded.  The Temple Institute is nothing but a tourist trap. You know, to take money from f1cking stupid Zionist Evangelical visitors.


----------



## Indeependent (Aug 26, 2017)

BulletProof said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Actually it's you, sock of a sock, who's ignorant.
> ...


The wall of the 1st Temple was about 10 times taller than the current Western Wall.
The Wall was built to ensure that those who were spiritually impure would not enter an area that would render them liable to their souls being cut off from God.


----------



## Roudy (Aug 26, 2017)

BulletProof said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Actually it's you, sock of a sock, who's ignorant.
> ...


Maybe you should ask yourself what is wrong with you, Achmed? I provided clear evidence that the wall is the remains of the second temple and that is what the Jews have believed for thousands of years.  So why shouldn't they rebuild something so central to their faith?

You Muslims believe that Mohamad's spirit got on a flying donkey three days after his corpse was rotting, and flew to the "far mosque over there", which is literally what Al Aqsa means. There is no proof of course for this, and the world has to accept that the mosque in Jerusalem is indeed the "mosque over there".  Or should we level the damn mosque and get this thing over with once and for all.  Exactly how many of these fictional "holy sites" are invading Muslims allotted have in other people's holy lands?


----------



## Roudy (Aug 26, 2017)

BulletProof said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > Nor would there be the Temple Institute.
> ...


You mean like what the Vatican is to Christians and and your Mecca is to Muslims, eh?


----------



## BulletProof (Aug 27, 2017)

Roudy said:


> Maybe you should ask yourself what is wrong with you, Achmed? I provided clear evidence that the wall is the remains of the second temple and that is what the Jews have believed for thousands of years.



Hahaha, it's explained to you that the Western Wall is a retaining wall built after and separately from the Temple, and you still think it's part of the actual temple.


----------



## Roudy (Aug 27, 2017)

BulletProof said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Maybe you should ask yourself what is wrong with you, Achmed? I provided clear evidence that the wall is the remains of the second temple and that is what the Jews have believed for thousands of years.
> ...


Archeologists contradict your claim. But it doesn't really matter.  What does matter is what the followers think.  When you Muslims can prove that Mohammad's spirit actually traveled on that flying donkey and the "far away mosque" meant the mosque in Jerusalem, then you guys can start criticising what other faiths believe.


----------



## montelatici (Aug 27, 2017)

Roudy said:


> BulletProof said:
> 
> 
> > Roudy said:
> ...



Yup, what really matters is the propaganda that the ZioNazis believe.  You said it.


----------



## Marion Morrison (Aug 27, 2017)

Raze the Arab structures.

Level Mecca and demolish the dome of the rock (real site of the temple).


----------



## Indeependent (Aug 27, 2017)

montelatici said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > BulletProof said:
> ...


Surely you must have thousands of your fellow ex-military friends who agree with you.
Why not invite them to join in?


----------



## montelatici (Aug 28, 2017)

Join what?


----------



## keepitreal (Aug 28, 2017)

BulletProof said:


> keepitreal said:
> 
> 
> > Sorry, God's Word differs from your insane proclamation!
> ...


Eat a bowl of alphabet soup before you post, huh...
this way you'll shit out something that makes sense!

In the Precious name of Jesus, I command you
and according to the Word of God, which compels you,
away with you demon!

The temple will be rebuilt on the Temple Mount,
let God be true and every man a liar!  Amen


----------



## BulletProof (Aug 28, 2017)

Roudy said:


> Archeologists contradict your claim. But it doesn't really matter.  What does matter is what the followers think.  When you Muslims can prove that Mohammad's spirit actually traveled on that flying donkey and the "far away mosque" meant the mosque in Jerusalem, then you guys can start criticising what other faiths believe.



You're full of sh1t.  There's no dispute about what the Western wall is, a retaining wall started by Herod.  No archaeologist claims it was part of the temple building.  Do you just enjoy saying being stupid?  What's in it for you to make such a fool of yourself?


----------



## BulletProof (Aug 28, 2017)

keepitreal said:


> BulletProof said:
> 
> 
> > keepitreal said:
> ...



Jesus told the Jews that they're the children of the devil. The Jews responded by accusing Jesus of having a demon.  I quote the Bible and you accuse me of having a demon.  You appear to be every bit as damned as those Jews.


----------



## Sixties Fan (Aug 28, 2017)

BulletProof said:


> keepitreal said:
> 
> 
> > BulletProof said:
> ...



You are quoting, if indeed you are, the "New Testament" which has nothing to do with Judaism as it was written by non-Jews.

Your writing gets more and more curious........

Now, how to make some Muslims (and some Christians) stop behaving as they do, and allow the Jews to ascend their holiest site without without being attacked every time?


----------



## saltydancin (Aug 28, 2017)

Sixties Fan said:


> BulletProof said:
> 
> 
> > keepitreal said:
> ...


----------



## BulletProof (Aug 28, 2017)

Sixties Fan said:


> You are quoting, if indeed you are, the "New Testament" which has nothing to do with Judaism as it was written by non-Jews.



Wasn't Jesus a Jew?  And, wasn't the author of the Gospel of John a Jew?

You are indeed ignorant and antichrist.  God said to Israel, "You are not my people, and I am not your God."   That's a quote from the Old Testament.  



> Now, how to make some Muslims (and some Christians) stop behaving as they do, and allow the Jews to ascend their holiest site without without being attacked every time?



Jews should be outlawed, and then there won't be a problem with Jews being attacked as by trying to descrate the holy site with their demonic presence.


----------



## saltydancin (Aug 28, 2017)

BulletProof said:


> Sixties Fan said:
> 
> 
> > You are quoting, if indeed you are, the "New Testament" which has nothing to do with Judaism as it was written by non-Jews.
> ...



This cross conditioned way beyond therapy of Islam Christiananality pedophile mentalities is so arrogantly condescending lame.


----------



## Eloy (Aug 29, 2017)

flacaltenn said:


> Eloy said:
> 
> 
> > Boston1 said:
> ...


You, and the person who agreed with you, are misinformed.
Since 1967, Jordan and Israel agreed that the *Jordanian Waqf*, which I explained in my post previous to this, would have control over matters inside the compound, while Israel would control external security. "The Waqf is entirely controlled and funded by the *Jordanian government*. It administers daily life on the Temple Mount, which includes the Al-Aqsa Mosque, Dome of the Rock, archaeological sites, museums and schools."
Amid Temple Mount tumult, the who, what and why of its Waqf rulers
Please give a citation to support your claim that Jordan has renounced the authority of its Waqf to control the Noble Sanctuary.


----------



## rylah (Aug 29, 2017)

Eloy said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > Eloy said:
> ...



Really? Does the agreement justify discrimination against Jews?
My guess is You didn't even read the document.


----------



## flacaltenn (Aug 29, 2017)

Eloy said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > Eloy said:
> ...



It's in your article. Jordan may contribute funds, but has no TITLE to the land. It's held by the Waqf. It was "donated"..  Jordan provides no legal jurisdiction or security or ability to enforce the Waqf.. 

All other Jordanian claims to "occupied" land have been renounced. They will NOT lift a finger for the Palestinians. It's all bad blood now...


----------



## Shusha (Aug 29, 2017)

Eloy said:


> You, and the person who agreed with you, are misinformed.
> Since 1967, Jordan and Israel agreed that the *Jordanian Waqf*, which I explained in my post previous to this, would have control over matters inside the compound, while Israel would control external security. "The Waqf is entirely controlled and funded by the *Jordanian government*. It administers daily life on the Temple Mount, which includes the Al-Aqsa Mosque, Dome of the Rock, archaeological sites, museums and schools."
> Amid Temple Mount tumult, the who, what and why of its Waqf rulers
> Please give a citation to support your claim that Jordan has renounced the authority of its Waqf to control the Noble Sanctuary.



Sovereignty over the Temple Mount, the Old City, and indeed Jerusalem is absolutely clear, especially with consideration to Jordan.  Jordan has entered into a peace treaty with Israel defining Jordan's territory and Israel's territory.  Temple Mount, the Old City and Jerusalem lie, without doubt, in Israel according to treaty, and therefore international law.  Jordan has absolutely NO claim to any sort of legal or political sovereignty over Temple Mount.  

Israel has graciously, as a courtesy, extended special consideration to Jordan on behalf of the Muslim community.  Article 9 of the Treaty of Peace between the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan and Israel (posted for the 3rd time on this thread) reads:

_Article 9* - Places of Historical and Religious Significance and Interfaith Relations* 
1. Each Party will provide freedom of access to places of religious and historical significance. 
2. In this regard, in accordance with the Washington Declaration, Israel respects the present special role of the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan in Muslim Holy shrines in Jerusalem. When negotiations on the permanent status will take place, Israel will give high priority to the Jordanian historic role in these shrines. 
3. The Parties will act together to promote interfaith relations among the three monotheistic religions, with the aim of working towards religious understanding, moral commitment, freedom of religious worship, and tolerance and peace._

This is the FULL EXTENT of the legal agreements between Jordan and Israel concerning the places of historical and religious signficance.  Israel, the clear sovereign, respects the special role of the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan in the Muslim Holy shrines and promises to give that special role a priority in permanent negotiations.  Everything else is a courtesy extended to Jordan.  The Waqf itself is simply a representative of Jordan and holds absolutely zero authority or legal standing of its own.  

Note also that the agreement (treaty, international law) states that Jordan must ensure freedom of access to the Temple Mount and must ensure freedom of religious worship.


----------



## Shusha (Aug 29, 2017)

I am going to further add that Israeli law (law of the sovereign) states that all people have the right to freedom of worship, including on the Temple Mount, and the ONLY reason this right is curtailed for Jews is because of security concerns -- essentially that the right to life and security trump the right to worship.


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## Shusha (Aug 29, 2017)

AND, let's get down to the meat of the matter and shove aside all this nonsense about who does or should "legally" control the Holy place.  

ALL people have the right of freedom of worship at places of historical and religious significance?  YES or NO?


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## flacaltenn (Aug 29, 2017)

Shusha said:


> AND, let's get down to the meat of the matter and shove aside all this nonsense about who does or should "legally" control the Holy place.
> 
> ALL people have the right of freedom of worship at places of historical and religious significance?  YES or NO?



Of course. And if Israel wanted to REALLY make that point, The Temple Mount/Dome of the Rock SHOULD be turned into an INTERNATIONAL heritage site with EVERYONE praying up there in their own accommodations.

Demilitarize it -- Install the necessary access and security, invite EVERY faith that shares the Holy Land to come. Don't split the baby into pieces..


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## Shusha (Aug 29, 2017)

flacaltenn said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > AND, let's get down to the meat of the matter and shove aside all this nonsense about who does or should "legally" control the Holy place.
> ...



Well, I'm not fond of framing it as an "international" heritage site.  But I'm sure okay with inviting EVERY faith to come and visit and pray and worship and celebrate.  Israel supports that, generally.  Don't you think?


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## Shusha (Aug 29, 2017)

The concern is that if Israel did enforce freedom of worship, the Muslims would have a Holy War over it.  With Israel taking the beating.  Do you think the international community would engage in that Holy War on Israel's side?


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## flacaltenn (Aug 29, 2017)

Shusha said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > Shusha said:
> ...



Israel will always be denigrated and smeared for limiting access to that site. For instance -- No ISIS picnics on the Mount. No wave of pilgrims from Yemen, etc.. But making it a safe place for tourists/pilgrims/residents that ALREADY have access to Israel would be the limit. Control all access in/out. So that Palis from W.Bank can access it as well. 

Tell the Waqf to "deal with it".  They have all the access they want. Get Israeli/Pali Christians to buy into the deal.


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## rylah (Aug 29, 2017)

Shusha said:


> The concern is that if Israel did enforce freedom of worship, the Muslims would have a Holy War over it.  With Israel taking the beating.  Do you think the international community would engage in that Holy War on Israel's side?



No, as I understand Christianity sees the destruction of the Temple as the symbol for its' supremacy as much as Islam. Any support for Jewish success or equality on the Mount is seen as support for the Antichrist.

Correct me if I'm wrong.


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## Roudy (Sep 1, 2017)

montelatici said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > BulletProof said:
> ...


What you call propaganda is the truth.  There are hundreds of thousands of archeological sites and artifacts that prove without a doubt the existence and ongoing presence of the Jewish people, and their temple in the land of ancient Israel.


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## montelatici (Sep 1, 2017)

Roudy said:


> montelatici said:
> 
> 
> > Roudy said:
> ...



Oh shut up.

*
"What evidence is there that the Temple of Solomon existed?
*
The only evidence is the Bible. There are no other records describing it, and to date there has been no archaeological evidence of the Temple at all. What's more, other archaeological sites associated with King Solomon - palaces, fortresses and walled cities that seemed to match places and cities from the Bible - are also now in doubt.

There is a growing sense among scholars that most of these archaeological sites are actually later than previously believed. Some now believe there may be little or no archaeological evidence of King Solomon's time at all, and doubt that he ruled the vast empire which is described in the Bible."

BBC - Science & Nature - Horizon


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## Roudy (Sep 1, 2017)

rylah said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > The concern is that if Israel did enforce freedom of worship, the Muslims would have a Holy War over it.  With Israel taking the beating.  Do you think the international community would engage in that Holy War on Israel's side?
> ...


Depends on the type of Christian you are referring to.  Whether it be the first or second coming of the Messiah, both prophecies predict the return of the Jews, the reestablishment of Israel, and the rebuilding of the temple. The Christians however believe that the Messiah will be Jesus, who will save the Jews, Israel, and the world.  Majority of Christians believe this, that Jews will eventually become Christians when Jesus returns.


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## Roudy (Sep 1, 2017)

montelatici said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > montelatici said:
> ...


"The only evidence is in the Bible"?  Ha ha ha ya gotta love it!

There ya go exhibiting your Jew hate and utter ignorance, once again.

The *Arch of Titus* (Italian: _Arco di Tito_; Latin: _Arcus Titi_) is a 1st-century AD. honorific arch,[1] located on the Via Sacra, Rome, just to the south-east of the Roman Forum. It was constructed in c. AD. 82 by the Emperor Domitian shortly after the death of his older brother Titus to commemorate Titus's victories, including the Siege of Jerusalem (AD 70).[2] The arch has provided the general model for many triumphal arches erected since the 16th century—perhaps most famously it is the inspiration for the Arc de Triomphe in Paris, France.[3]

The Arch provides one of the few contemporary depictions of Temple period artifacts.[13][14]

The seven-branched menorah and trumpets are clearly depicted. It became a symbol of the Jewish diaspora. In a later era, Pope Paul IV made it the place of a yearly oath of submission. According to Morton Satin, until the modern State of Israel was founded in 1948, Jews refused to walk under it due to an ancient ban placed on the monument by Rome’s Jewish authorities. The ban was formally lifted in 1997.[15] The arch was never mentioned in rabbinical sources.[16]

The menorah depicted on the Arch served as the model for the menorah used on the emblem of the state of Israel.[17]


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## Roudy (Sep 1, 2017)

Relief panel showing The Spoils of Jerusalem being brought into Rome, Arch of Titus, Rome, after 81 C.E., marble, 7 feet,10 inches high

Two panel reliefs flank the single passageway of the arch, and a third adorns the vault (the vault relief is above). The subject matter of the flanking reliefs draws upon the 71 C.E. triumph of Vespasian and Titus, depicting key triumphal episodes following the fall of Jerusalem. In one scene (below)  Romans carry spoils from the Temple in Jerusalem, including a Menorah, sacred trumpets and the showbread table. Recent studies have shown these items were painted with yellow ochre.

Khan Academy


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## Roudy (Sep 1, 2017)

There are outlandish claims by antisemites like Monte, and then there is the reality.

King Solomon's Wall Found—Proof of Bible Tale?

<span data-wpex-title-id='75233' style='min-height: 1em; display: inline-block;' data-original='Rm9yIEZpcnN0IFRpbWUgRVZFUiwgVW5kZW5pYWJsZSBFdmlkZW5jZSBvZiBKZXdpc2ggVGVtcGxlIERpc2NvdmVyZWQgW1BIT1RPU10=' ></span>

*For First Time Ever, Archaeological Evidence Proves Jewish Temple Stood on Temple Mount [PHOTOS]*
“And He said unto me: ‘Son of man this is the place of My throne and the place of the soles of My feet where I will dwell in the midst of the children of Yisrael for ever.’” Ezekiel 43:7 (The Israel Bible™)





Collection of Herodian floor tiles believed to be part of the Second Temple complex. (Temple Mount Sifting Project/Zachi Dvira)

An incredible new discovery at the Temple Mount has produced the first-ever physical and archaeological evidence that the Jewish Second Temple stood on the Mount 2,000 years ago, upsetting Arab claims, increasingly endorsed by the international community, that the Temples never existed.

Archaeologists from the Temple Mount Sifting Project, salvaging artifacts from Muslim destruction at the Temple complex, have completed the restoration of ornate floor tiles which experts believe likely decorated the courtyard of the Second Jewish Temple. The project provides visible and incontrovertible proof, backed up by ancient texts and historical context, of a Jewish Temple on the Mount.

In total, archaeological teams have uncovered approximately 600 colored stone floor tile segments, with more than 100 of them positively dated to the Herodian Second Temple period (37-4 BCE).





An eight-pointed star floor tile from the Second Temple. (Temple Mount Sifting Project/Zachi Dvira)
The importance of the discovery is undeniable.

“This represents the first time that archeologists have been able to successfully restore an element from the Herodian Second Temple complex,” said Zachi Dvira, co-founder and director of the Temple Mount Sifting Project.

The Sifting Project began in the Tzurim Valley National Park in 2004 in an attempt to salvage whatever archaeological artifacts it could from destruction caused by illegal construction projects on the Temple Mount led by the Jordanian Waqf that controls the Mount.

This destruction of irreplaceable archaeological artifacts is considered to be part of a larger trend of Temple denial. Denying Jewish connection to the Temple Mount began at the 2000 Camp David Summit, when the Palestinian Authority Chairman Yasser Arafat insisted that “the Temple” existed near Shechem (Nablus), and not on the Temple Mount in Jerusalem.

This claim has been taken up in the international narrative as UNESCO passed an initiative claiming the Temple Mount as an exclusively Muslim holy site. This claim went mainstream last October when the _New York Times_ published an article questioning whether the two Jewish Temples ever existed at all.





An eight-pointed star floor tile from the Second Temple. (Temple Mount Sifting Project/Zachi Dvira)
_Breaking Israel News_ asked Dr. Gabriel Barkay, co-founder and director of the Temple Mount Sifting Project, if this first-of-its-kind restoration was absolute proof refuting Temple denial.

“You are asking me if I have proof that water is wet,” he responded emphatically. “I don’t need to prove anything. I found facts.”

Dr. Barkay compared denial of the Jewish Temples to denying the Holocaust. “I myself am a Holocaust survivor, and I couldn’t care less about people who deny what I know to be true. For the Holocaust, we have the camps, we have the films and photographs, and we have the survivors,” he told _Breaking Israel News_.

“For the Temple, we have the Mishnah (Oral Law), the New Testament, we have the writings of Flavius Josephus (a 1st Century Romano-Jewish historian). We have mountains of archaeological evidence. I don’t want to relate to what is nothing less than a political misuse of history.

[ubm_premium banners=144 count=1]

“There are people who approach me, especially Europeans, and ask what proof I have there was a Jewish Temple. I say that I don’t have proof and I am not interested in proof,” Dr. Barkay stated. “The fact is there was a Temple. Our discovery simply shows the glory that was the Temple.”

Speaking of proof, the tiles fit perfectly into a description of the Temple complex given by historian Josephus, who saw Temple with his own eyes. He wrote in his work “The Jewish Wars” that “the uncovered [Temple Mount courtyard] was completely paved with stones of various types and colors”.

The find also agrees with Talmudic literature about the construction of the Temple Mount which describes rows of green, blue and white marble. The tile segments, mostly imported from Rome, Asia Minor, Tunisia and Egypt, were made from polished multicolored stones cut in a variety of geometric shapes.





Floor tiles from the Second Temple. (Temple Mount Sifting Project/Zachi Dvira)
Another point of historical proof is that this style of flooring is consistent with floors found in contemporary works built by Herod, the builder of the Second Temple. Similar flooring has been found at Herod’s palaces in Masada, Herodian, and Jericho, among others. A key characteristic of the Herodian tiles is their size, which corresponds to the Roman foot, approximately 29.6 cm.

The restoration is proof of a theory that large expanses of the Temple Mount during the Second Temple were covered with a special type of ornate flooring called opus sectile, Latin for “cut work.” The idea was first put forward in 2007 by archaeologist Assaf Avraham, director of the Jerusalem Walls National Park. The new discovery confirms it.

“So far, we have succeeded in restoring seven potential designs of the majestic flooring that decorated the buildings of the Temple Mount,” said Frankie Snyder, a member of the Temple Mount Sifting Project’s team of researchers and an expert in the study of ancient Herodian style flooring, explaining that there were no opus sectile floors in Israel prior to the time of King Herod. “The tile segments were perfectly inlaid such that one could not even insert a sharp blade between them.”

......


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## Roudy (Sep 1, 2017)

*Ancient First Temple Artifacts Uncovered in Jerusalem*

*Ancient First Temple Artifacts Uncovered in Jerusalem*
Archaeologists from Israel’s Antiquities Authority (IAA) have revealed two important artifacts recently discovered in Jerusalem, both dating from the First Temple Period (8-7 BCE).

The first, a bone seal engraved with the name “Shaul” was found in an excavation being conducted under the auspices of the IAA, in cooperation with the Nature and Parks Authority in the Walls Around Jerusalem National Park, located in the City of David.






_Israel News Photo: (Vladimir Naykhin)_

The dig, which is underwritten by the “Ir David Foundation” (City of David) is being carried out under the direction of Professor Ronny Reich of the University of Haifa and Eli Shukron of the IAA.

The seal, which is made of bone, was found broken and is missing a piece from its upper right side. Two parallel lines divide the surface of the seal into two registers in which Hebrew letters are engraved. A period followed by a floral image or a tiny fruit appear at the end of the bottom name.

The name of the seal’s owner was completely preserved and it is written in the shortened form of the name, Shaul, which is known from both the Bible (Genesis 36:37; 1 Samuel 9:2; 1 Chronicles 4:24 and 6:9) and from other Hebrew seals.

Another Hebrew seal and three Hebrew bullae (pieces of clay stamped with seal impressions) were previously discovered nearby.

The second artifact, an ancient jar handle bearing the Hebrew name “Menachem” was uncovered in the neighborhood of Ras el ‘Amud during an excavation prior to construction of a girls’ school by the Jerusalem municipality.






_Israel News Photo: (Mariana Salzberger/IAA)_

The jar handle, inscribed with the name "Menachem" carved in Hebrew, was found among settlement remains dating to different phases of the Middle Canaanite period (2200 – 1900 BCE), and the last years of the First Temple period (8-7 BCE) that were recently uncovered during the excavation.

The name Menachem Ben Gadi is noted in the Bible as that of a king of Israel who reigned for 10 years in Samaria, as one of the last kings of the Kingdom of Israel. According to Kings II, Menachem Ben Gadi ascended the throne in the 39th year of Uzziah, King of Judah (Judea). 

The names Menachem and Yinachem both are expressions of condolence, noted excavation director Dr. Ron Be’eri, who speculated they might be related to the death of family members. The archaeologist added that such names already appeared earlier in the Canaanite period, on Egyptian pottery sherds and a document about an Egyptian governor on the Lebanese coast.

This is the first time that a handle with the name “Menachem” has been found in Jerusalem.


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## montelatici (Sep 1, 2017)

Oh shut up.

*
"What evidence is there that the Temple of Solomon existed?*

The only evidence is the Bible. There are no other records describing it, and to date there has been no archaeological evidence of the Temple at all. What's more, other archaeological sites associated with King Solomon - palaces, fortresses and walled cities that seemed to match places and cities from the Bible - are also now in doubt.

There is a growing sense among scholars that most of these archaeological sites are actually later than previously believed. Some now believe there may be little or no archaeological evidence of King Solomon's time at all, and doubt that he ruled the vast empire which is described in the Bible."

BBC - Science & Nature - Horizon


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## Roudy (Sep 1, 2017)

Bullshit propaganda. Wash, rinse, repeat.


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## montelatici (Sep 1, 2017)

Roudy said:


> Bullshit propaganda. Wash, rinse, repeat.



Facts are inconvenient aren't they.  Keep clown dancing.


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## Roudy (Sep 1, 2017)

montelatici said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Bullshit propaganda. Wash, rinse, repeat.
> ...


Fact is even the Italians agree that the Arch is evidence of the sacking of Jerusalem and Italian European looting of the remains of the Temple.   It  was used to build the Collosuem, and later the Collosuem was stripped to build the Vatican.  So one can argue that the Vatican, is built with stolen Jewish property.   

Now Remember...wash, rinse, repeat.


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## montelatici (Sep 2, 2017)

Roudy said:


> montelatici said:
> 
> 
> > Roudy said:
> ...



You don't even know which temple you are talking about.  Herod was appointed by the Roman Senate and the temple you are talking about (built buy Herod) built with taxes collected by the Roman administration while the area was under Roman protection. Everything in Palestine belonged to the Senātus Populusque Rōmānus (SPQR), it was a province of the Roman Empire.  The assets were confiscated to cover the cost of defeating the Jew terrorist troublemakers.  The cost of deploying the legions was more than the assets recovered, so the Jews still owe Rome.


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## saltydancin (Sep 2, 2017)

montelatici said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > montelatici said:
> ...



So that's why these KKK churchstate cops in the US dictate "serve the Pope or die" along with an absurd edict that Jews have to pay the US which is collecting for the Holocaust just as for the Catholic Church assassinating JFK. Like I told Rehnquist, go stick a swastika up Uranus & .......rotate......temple assets !


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## Shusha (Sep 2, 2017)

montelatici said:


> Everything in Palestine belonged to the Senātus Populusque Rōmānus (SPQR), it was a province of the Roman Empire.  The assets were confiscated to cover the cost of defeating the Jew terrorist troublemakers.  The cost of deploying the legions was more than the assets recovered, so the Jews still owe Rome.



Oh.  So you are arguing that conquerors can charge the indigenous peoples for the costs of the conquest.  Israel should get right on that.  Perhaps by confiscating the Mosque and the Dome.  

Also, too bad that there are no Jews left to "owe Rome", you know, since they are all just Europeans.


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## Roudy (Sep 2, 2017)

montelatici said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > montelatici said:
> ...


You are fulla Shiite.  Even the Italians agree that this is what happened. The occupying and invading Romans destroyed and looted the the Jewish temple.  Plus, the Roman colosseum was build with imported Judean slaves, about 50,000 of them.


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## montelatici (Sep 2, 2017)

What Italians agree about what?  Herod's temple was built during Roman rule and he was apponted by the Roman Senate, he was a civil servant of the government of Rome.  It belonged to the Romans, they could do whatever they wanted with it. LOL


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## rylah (Sep 2, 2017)

montelatici said:


> What Italians agree about what?  Herod's temple was built during Roman rule and he was apponted by the Roman Senate, he was a civil servant of the government of Rome.  It belonged to the Romans, they could do whatever they wanted with it. LOL



LOL and You don't see how You just shot Yourself in the leg?


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## rylah (Sep 2, 2017)

montelatici said:


> Facts are inconvenient aren't they.  Keep clown dancing.





montelatici said:


> You mean Montelatici's facts.



 good one, good one. I told You should write comics.


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## montelatici (Sep 2, 2017)

rylah said:


> montelatici said:
> 
> 
> > Facts are inconvenient aren't they.  Keep clown dancing.
> ...



The facts are the facts. Not your Hasbara alternative facts.


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## rylah (Sep 2, 2017)

Shusha said:


> Oh.  So you are arguing that conquerors can charge the indigenous peoples for the costs of the conquest.  Israel should get right on that.  Perhaps by confiscating the Mosque and the Dome.
> 
> Also, too bad that there are no Jews left to "owe Rome", you know, since they are all just Europeans.



It think this should be emphasized.  Sums up the hypocrisy.


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## rylah (Sep 2, 2017)

montelatici said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> > montelatici said:
> ...



You mean like the Palestinian sources that contradict what You say?
Advise- in order to find facts, try reading beyond the headlines.


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## montelatici (Sep 2, 2017)

rylah said:


> montelatici said:
> 
> 
> > rylah said:
> ...



I never "say". I provide the facts from authoritative sources.  You propagate Hasbara propaganda.  T


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## rylah (Sep 2, 2017)

When PLO advisors and Palestinian institutes automatically turn into "Israeli propaganda",
 looks kinda:


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## rylah (Sep 2, 2017)

Now back to the facts:

Treaty of Peace between the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan and Israel 

_Article 9* - Places of Historical and Religious Significance and Interfaith Relations* 
1. Each Party will provide freedom of access to places of religious and historical significance. 
2. In this regard, in accordance with the Washington Declaration, Israel respects the present special role of the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan in Muslim Holy shrines in Jerusalem. When negotiations on the permanent status will take place, Israel will give high priority to the Jordanian historic role in these shrines. 
3. The Parties will act together to promote interfaith relations among the three monotheistic religions, with the aim of working towards religious understanding, moral commitment, freedom of religious worship, and tolerance and peace._

Should we look for another agreement? Or maybe another family (other than Husseni) to be in charge of the Muslim affairs on the mount?
There're shekihs and clans that are certainly more tolerating...Jordan is still weak in face their Palestinian majority.


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## Roudy (Sep 2, 2017)

montelatici said:


> What Italians agree about what?  Herod's temple was built during Roman rule and he was apponted by the Roman Senate, he was a civil servant of the government of Rome.  It belonged to the Romans, they could do whatever they wanted with it. LOL


More garbage propaganda.  Wash, rinse, repeat.  Not to mention he totally out his hoof in his mouth! Ha ha ha!

First he falsely claims "no evidence of a temple" followed by another falsehood totally putting his foot in his mouth. "Herod's temple was totally built during Roman rule".

These liars have a problem keeping track of their lies and bigotry. Ya gotta love it!
****
Construction of the Second Temple was completed under the leadership of the last three Jewish Prophets Haggai, Zechariah and Malachi with Persian approval and financing.




The Trumpeting Place inscription, a stone (2.43x1 m) with Hebrew inscription "To the Trumpeting Place" excavated by Benjamin Mazar at the southern foot of the Temple Mount is believed to be a part of the Second Temple.


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## Roudy (Sep 2, 2017)

rylah said:


> montelatici said:
> 
> 
> > What Italians agree about what?  Herod's temple was built during Roman rule and he was apponted by the Roman Senate, he was a civil servant of the government of Rome.  It belonged to the Romans, they could do whatever they wanted with it. LOL
> ...


Yeah, totally. He went from "no evidence of temple" to "the temple was built by Herod".  They lie so much they can't keep track of their own bullshit. Ha ha ha!

Actually under Herod there was an expansion / restoration that was never completed, which led to the revolt., which led to destruction and looting of Jerusalem and the Temple by the invading Romans.  The Romans then used 50,000 Jewish slaves and the loot from the Temple to build the Collosseum, which was then looted and stripped by the Church in order to build the Vatcan.   Figures eh?


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## Roudy (Sep 2, 2017)

Roudy said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> > montelatici said:
> ...



Colosseum 'built with loot from sack of Jerusalem temple'

30 Interesting facts about the Roman Colosseum | Around Rome Tours

*10.)* The Colosseum only took 10 years to build starting in 70 AD and was completed in 80 AD using over 60,000 Jewish slaves.

10 interesting facts about the Colosseum - Top Tours in Italy - Private Guided Excursions From & To Rome by Nick Solipaca

*





6- The fall.* Many natural disasters devastated the structure of the Colosseum, but it was the *earthquakes*of 847 AD and 1349 AD that caused most of the damage you see today. During the great earthquake in 1349, the outer South side, that lied on a less stable terrain, collapsed. Much of the tumbled *stone* was *reused* to build palaces, churches, hospitals and other buildings elsewhere in Rome. The marble façade and other parts of the Colosseum were also used for the construction of *St Peter’s Basilica*. During Middle Ages the interior of the amphitheater was *extensively stripped* of stone, reused elsewhere, or (in the case of the marble façade) burned to make quicklime. The bronze clamps which held the stonework together were pried or hacked out of the walls, leaving numerous pockmarks which still scar the building today.


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## saltydancin (Sep 4, 2017)

Roudy said:


> Roudy said:
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> 
> > rylah said:
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## Eloy (Sep 6, 2017)

flacaltenn said:


> Eloy said:
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The trust is the *Jordanian Waqf* _not_ the Israeli Waqf or whatever Modern Hebrew the Israelis might invent for waqf in order to pretend that Jordan has no business expressing an opinion on the Noble Sanctuary.


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## jillian (Sep 6, 2017)

TNHarley said:


> 1300 years or so isnt historic?



the temple mount is a lot older.


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## Eloy (Sep 6, 2017)

Shusha said:


> Eloy said:
> 
> 
> > You, and the person who agreed with you, are misinformed.
> ...


Not a single country in the world, including the Pacific Island of Nauru, accepts that Israel has any claim on East Jerusalem and the Noble Sanctuary.


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## flacaltenn (Sep 6, 2017)

Eloy said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > Eloy said:
> ...



It's not that Jordan has "no business" expressing an opinion on the Mount. It's that Jordan has no INTENTION of enforcing any of it or any interest in working with Palestinians not already incorporated into Jordan.  

Best solution is for Israel to recognize (or be PRESSURED to recognize) the International nature of that Holy site to the world's top 3 religions. And to make a statement about coexistence by making it a safe place for ALL 3 religions to worship...


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## Sixties Fan (Sep 6, 2017)

flacaltenn said:


> Eloy said:
> 
> 
> > flacaltenn said:
> ...



You may have missed it where Israel, from 1967 on, has had freedom of religion for everyone on the Mount.
Jordan was given management as an extension for peace.  They did not need to do so, as it was the Hashemites who did not allow Jews or Christians to go visit their holy sites between 1948 and 1967.

It was agreed that all religions were allowed to visit, but Jews would not 
be allowed to pray there.

Now, as we have seen for about a decade now, the Muslims are insisting that no Jew be allowed to visit the Temple Mount.
It is only for Muslims and Christians.  Mostly for Muslims.

Facts do matter.


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## flacaltenn (Sep 6, 2017)

Sixties Fan said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > Eloy said:
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Well fine. Not disputing the facts. I'm proposing that BEST statement for Israel to make is freedom of worship for EVERYONE of the religions with a connection to the Holy Land. In accordance to the rules of visiting Israel and eligibility for entry. 

It was DESIGNED as an easy place to secure. SECURE IT and open up the place for everyone.. If Christians and Jews have no problem with that and only Muslims want to be exclusive -- that's a problem for them. .


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## Sixties Fan (Sep 6, 2017)

flacaltenn said:


> Sixties Fan said:
> 
> 
> > flacaltenn said:
> ...



Israel not only has made that statement, it practices it every day, at the cost of Jews not being allowed to visit the Mount if Muslims start to riot.

The agreement with the Hashemites makes it a bit difficult to close the Temple to the Muslims.
Look at what happened with the metal detectors after the Muslim attack.
A Jordanian attacked a guard in Jordan and the Hashemites wanted to basically to use him as a hostage to make Israel take the detectors down.  And they are still insisting that the guard be put on trial by Israel.

Israel has a treaty with Jordan and Egypt.  There are too many Muslims in those countries who want to tear those treaties up.
The Jordanian king, preoccupied with all the other groups within Jordan who want to see him gone is sweetening them by showing them how "tough" he can be with Israel.

In actuality, if Israel let Jordan be by itself, instead of helping it with security, business, water, etc....it would just fall apart.

This is the Arab tribe which got kicked out of Arabia around WWI, the British ended up giving it 77 % of the mandate for Palestine to become the recreation of the Jewish homeland, and the same tribe which had no problem attacking Israel in 1948 and taking Judea, Samaria and the Jewish quarter of Jerusalem wanting to annex them, Jewish free.

If we understand this tribe's past, we will understand what they are doing in the present.

The same goes to all Arab tribes.

Now we have the UN, the EU, etc, etc, etc.
Israel is not counting on them, but more and more Arab countries are depending on Israel for things like security, or against Iran.

The Temple Mount and Jerusalem are being used as a stepping stone to taking all of Israel.

Israel will not allow it.  But can only do so much considering the treaties it has signed with the Jordanians and the PA.
Israel keeps its word.  The Arabs do not, as they have always done.

So, it remains to be seen what will happen in the future.
Abbas will not live forever.  The next leader remains to be seen and what he will want to do, unless Hamas takes over Abbas' leader role in the Areas A and B of Judea and Samaria.


It should have been simple in 1967 but Dayan and others allowed the Hashemites to become an issue with the Temple Mount.  And things got worse from there.

I would like to see the Hashemite influence gone, myself.  But it is up to the Israeli government to know which is best in the long run as long as 
the Muslims do not attempt to take over and keep the Jews out as they keep demanding.


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## Shusha (Sep 6, 2017)

Eloy said:


> Not a single country in the world, including the Pacific Island of Nauru, accepts that Israel has any claim on East Jerusalem and the Noble Sanctuary.



1.  International law is not a popularity contest.  It matters not what bit what the "world" thinks. 

2.  We are discussing Jordanian claims to sovereignty over the Temple Mount.  Jordan has NO sovereignty there.  None.  Zero.  Zilch.  In fact, Jordan NEVER had any sovereignty over territory beyond her borders.   But even if she had -- she ceded that territory, by treaty, to ISRAEL. That's what peace treaties DO.  They put an end to disputes of territory by agreeing who is sovereign over what territory.


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## Shusha (Sep 6, 2017)

flacaltenn said:


> Best solution is for Israel to recognize (or be PRESSURED to recognize) the International nature of that Holy site to the world's top 3 religions. And to make a statement about coexistence by making it a safe place for ALL 3 religions to worship...



Israel is certainly capable and willing to do this (though she will not, nor should she, give up sovereignty).  What the world needs to do is SUPPORT her in that -- including backing up all the necessary security arrangements for the place.


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## Shusha (Sep 6, 2017)

Sixties Fan said:


> The Temple Mount and Jerusalem are being used as a stepping stone to taking all of Israel.



The Temple Mount and Jerusalem are deliberately being used to incite hate and violence, and eventually, a "holy" war.


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## saltydancin (Sep 6, 2017)

Shusha said:


> Sixties Fan said:
> 
> 
> > The Temple Mount and Jerusalem are being used as a stepping stone to taking all of Israel.
> ...



Must be so "holy" to fabricate a misnomer of immaculate conception where if some 2000+ years ago some Arab got CPR or mouth to mouth resuscitation to be brought back to life only to be killed & before that some chariot rider got caught in a volcanic plume or geological gas fissure bursting into flames to incite wars. Quite a trail of flatulence......


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## TNHarley (Sep 8, 2017)

jillian said:


> TNHarley said:
> 
> 
> > 1300 years or so isnt historic?
> ...


I know. But saying their is no history there for the muslims isnt correct


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## Sixties Fan (Sep 8, 2017)

TNHarley said:


> jillian said:
> 
> 
> > TNHarley said:
> ...



Israel and the Jews have never said that there is no Muslim history on the Temple Mount.  There is one since the 7th century when they invaded the land and later built a mosque there as a symbol of conquest.

Islam on the other hand is the one saying, since after 1948, and especially for the past 5 to 10 years, that not only the Jews have no connection to the Temple Mount, but no connection to the Cave of the Patriarchs, to Rachel and Joseph's Tomb, and all other Jewish holy sites as proven by the endless UNESCO decisions lately giving the Muslims, and not the Jews the right to those places.

UNESCO has a become a political entity which does what it wants, especially if the majority of those voting can do so in favor of Islam.


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## TNHarley (Sep 8, 2017)

Sixties Fan said:


> TNHarley said:
> 
> 
> > jillian said:
> ...


From the OP
_Should the Israelis simply bull doze whatever Arab structures are not historic, ban Muslims from the Mount and rebuild the temple?_


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## Sixties Fan (Sep 8, 2017)

TNHarley said:


> Sixties Fan said:
> 
> 
> > TNHarley said:
> ...




That is a question I answer in an earlier post.  I will not do it again.  I was answering what you wrote in your last post.

Do you know what the history of Islam is on the Temple Mount?
What was the importance of the Mount before Israel became sovereign in 1948?
Is it truly historically, or religiously important to Islam?
Why do they pray with their backs to their mosques, if it is so important to them?

Just a few of the questions which need to be answered before one decides if one should simply bulldoze the non historical Muslim building  on the Mount and build the Third Temple, which by the way will not happen until the Arabs put their weapons down and start respecting the Jews and allowing them to go to their holiest site without harassing them.

But then, if the Muslims never come to respect the Jews and their holiest of sites, and all other sites, will Israel have the right to do what they want and do away with the Jordanian management they allowed to exist since 1967 which has turned into a weapon against Jews being allowed to go up their holiest of sites and be free to visit it as agreed with the Hashemites who held the area from 1948 to 1967.

Do you have a suggestion on how Israel can make it go back to the way it was 30 years ago, when Jews were allowed to ascend without the harassment and prohibition the Muslims are trying to force on the Jews?

Do you even know what has brought that about?


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## TNHarley (Sep 8, 2017)

Sixties Fan said:


> TNHarley said:
> 
> 
> > Sixties Fan said:
> ...


blah blah blah i dont give a shit about the two sides and their pretentious bickering. 
That site is old as shit. You guys bias doesnt mean anything.


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## Sixties Fan (Sep 8, 2017)

TNHarley said:


> Sixties Fan said:
> 
> 
> > TNHarley said:
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Another question for you based on the OP:

Destroying Historical Jewish Archeology, attempting to ban Jews from the Mount, is this not what the Muslims been trying to do for the past ten or so years and call the Temple Mount a Muslim site only?


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## Sixties Fan (Sep 8, 2017)

TNHarley said:


> Sixties Fan said:
> 
> 
> > TNHarley said:
> ...




You don't give a crap, who cares.  It has nothing to do with you.
You just like to butt in where it is none of your business and sound as if you have some answer to it.  Which you do not.

You are part of the problem, not the solution.


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## TNHarley (Sep 8, 2017)

Sixties Fan said:


> TNHarley said:
> 
> 
> > Sixties Fan said:
> ...


All i did was correct the OP, and your (apparently) mistake, that it isnt historical.
I wasnt "butting in" this is a forum FFS. An internet forum.
I didnt pretend nothing. My comment was to the incorrect statement of it not being historical. You are a fucking lunatic.
People like YOU are the problem with Israel and Palestine.


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## Sixties Fan (Sep 8, 2017)

Sixties Fan said:


> TNHarley said:
> 
> 
> > Sixties Fan said:
> ...



Yeah, it is always funny when a Nazi White supremacist finds any answer "funny", considering how hilarious it is that it is coming from  a Nazi White supremacist piece of shit, the same crap which in WWII wanted to conquer the world and had no issues murdering over 12 Million people, just because.

Indeed, you not only are a part of the problem, you help force the problem as so many Muslims learned how to be Nazi supremacists just like the Germans.


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## TNHarley (Sep 8, 2017)

Sixties Fan said:


> Sixties Fan said:
> 
> 
> > TNHarley said:
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I lost an avatar and signature bet on the mayweather and mcgregor fight with another poster here. But grasp on to whatever you can


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## Sixties Fan (Sep 8, 2017)

TNHarley said:


> Sixties Fan said:
> 
> 
> > TNHarley said:
> ...



I will ask again.  According to Islam, what is historical about the Temple Mount now when it never, ever was such a thing for them for 1300 years.

Show me something that says how important Islam considered the Temple Mount important and historical for Islam for the 1300 years before Israel took it back?

I am not mistaken that it is not historical.  Islam's own history on the site proves it.


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## Sixties Fan (Sep 8, 2017)

TNHarley said:


> Sixties Fan said:
> 
> 
> > Sixties Fan said:
> ...



  Empty talk from a Nazi.   
You will not discuss the Historical importance of the Temple Mount in Islam, one wonders why.

What is the historical importance of Kashmir and all other places Muslims are fighting for anywhere in the world?

Why do Muslims like to destroy other religion's sites as ISIS was doing for the past five years?

The Temple Mount is historically important to Islam but you cannot tell why.

You are full of


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## TNHarley (Sep 8, 2017)

yes, us NAZIs love us some muslims


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## TNHarley (Sep 8, 2017)

Sixties Fan said:


> TNHarley said:
> 
> 
> > Sixties Fan said:
> ...


Are you really asking why the most holiest sites for islam are important?


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## Sixties Fan (Sep 8, 2017)

TNHarley said:


> Sixties Fan said:
> 
> 
> > TNHarley said:
> ...



I did not ask about Mecca and Medina.

I asked about the Temple Mount.

Show us the history of importance the Temple Mount has had in Islam before WWI.

What are you waiting for?


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## Shusha (Sep 8, 2017)

TNHarley said:


> blah blah blah i dont give a shit about the two sides and their pretentious bickering.
> That site is old as shit. You guys bias doesnt mean anything.



It is incorrect to say that this is two sides bickering. With respect to the Temple Mount one side is actively preventing, with the assistance of the international community, the other from exercising their freedom to religious worship and their rights to access a place of historical importance. THAT is a grave human rights violation and should be addressed as such.


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## Roudy (Sep 8, 2017)

TNHarley said:


> jillian said:
> 
> 
> > TNHarley said:
> ...


The Israelis aren't doing that, that's why Muslims AND Christians are free to worship at their sites.  Do you prefer Muslims be in charge of some of the holiest sites in the Christian faith?  I guaran-fuckin'-T you there won't be a single church or Christian holy site left standing.


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## TNHarley (Sep 8, 2017)

Roudy said:


> TNHarley said:
> 
> 
> > jillian said:
> ...


The OP claimed that. 
My gosh, am I the only one that read it?


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## Roudy (Sep 8, 2017)

TNHarley said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > TNHarley said:
> ...


The OP is claiming that it's the Arabs, not the Jews, that are using the Temple site as a flashpoint.  The bottom line is Muslims are upset that one of their "holy sites" is under Jewish control and in a Jewish governed state.  That in essence is the core of the conflict from day one.  Arab / Muslim intolerance and violence towards the non Muslims.  A quick glance at what Muslims have done all over the region throughout history will confirm this.


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## TNHarley (Sep 8, 2017)

Roudy said:


> TNHarley said:
> 
> 
> > Roudy said:
> ...


There goes that bickering LOL
Dude, they have been at it since the Jews rejected the pervert. 
All I was commenting on was how Muslims have history at the temple mount. 
You religious folk read more into my comments than my intent. 
Frankly, I'm done defending my simple and correct post.
Good day.


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## Eloy (Sep 8, 2017)

Shusha said:


> Eloy said:
> 
> 
> > Not a single country in the world, including the Pacific Island of Nauru, accepts that Israel has any claim on East Jerusalem and the Noble Sanctuary.
> ...


International law is founded on principles accepted by other countries, including the Pacific island of Nauru.


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## Eloy (Sep 8, 2017)

flacaltenn said:


> Eloy said:
> 
> 
> > flacaltenn said:
> ...


It was the intention of the United Nations that Jerusalem be an Open City under international sovereignty and neither part of an Arab nor Jewish state. That was and still is the best idea.


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## TNHarley (Sep 8, 2017)

Eloy said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > Eloy said:
> ...


How close of a relationship does religion and diplomacy have?


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## Shusha (Sep 8, 2017)

Eloy said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > Eloy said:
> ...



Yes.  Yes, it is.  And those principles should be followed.  NONE of those principles allow for a popular vote on where borders between nations are.  Only the nations involved have a right to determine borders.


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## Eloy (Sep 8, 2017)

Shusha said:


> Eloy said:
> 
> 
> > Shusha said:
> ...


You are incorrect; borders are not decided by belligerent states but by international treaty. The border of Israel was decided by the United Nations in 1948. It did not nor does it include Judea and Sumeria, including East Jerusalem nor Gaza.


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## Shusha (Sep 8, 2017)

Eloy said:


> It was the intention of the United Nations that Jerusalem be an Open City under international sovereignty and neither part of an Arab nor Jewish state. That was and still is the best idea.



THAT, alone, is a drastic departure from customary international law.


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## Shusha (Sep 8, 2017)

Eloy said:


> You are incorrect; borders are not decided by belligerent states but by international treaty. The border of Israel was decided by the United Nations in 1948. It did not nor does it include Judea and Sumeria, including East Jerusalem nor Gaza.



You are woefully ignorant about international law.  Borders are formed BY TREATY between States.  It is the TREATY between States which creates the borders.  Others, including the UN, do not have the right to determine borders between two States.  Therefore, the border of Israel COULD NOT have been created by the UN.

There is NO TREATY which defines a border between Israel and "Palestine".


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## Eloy (Sep 8, 2017)

Shusha said:


> Eloy said:
> 
> 
> > It was the intention of the United Nations that Jerusalem be an Open City under international sovereignty and neither part of an Arab nor Jewish state. That was and still is the best idea.
> ...


Nevertheless, it was the plan which neither Arabs nor Jews have honored.


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## Shusha (Sep 8, 2017)

Eloy said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > Eloy said:
> ...



It was a plan which neither the Arabs nor the Jewish people agreed to -- which is the customary requirement of international law.

There has never BEEN a territory under some sort of international sovereignty.  Both the Arabs and the Jews have good reason to question that concept.


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## Eloy (Sep 8, 2017)

Shusha said:


> Eloy said:
> 
> 
> > You are incorrect; borders are not decided by belligerent states but by international treaty. The border of Israel was decided by the United Nations in 1948. It did not nor does it include Judea and Sumeria, including East Jerusalem nor Gaza.
> ...


Open a book or read a newspaper sometime. When Israel was recognized by the United Nations and admitted as a member, its border was determined. It cannot be changed by an act of war. Israel's occupation for the past half century of the rest of Palestine is illegal.


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## Eloy (Sep 8, 2017)

Shusha said:


> Eloy said:
> 
> 
> > Shusha said:
> ...


I wrote the Jews, not the "Jewish people".


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## Shusha (Sep 8, 2017)

Eloy said:


> Open a book or read a newspaper sometime. When Israel was recognized by the United Nations and admitted as a member, its border was determined. It cannot be changed by an act of war. Israel's occupation for the past half century of the rest of Palestine is illegal.



International law is not formed by people writing books or newspaper articles.  International law, as you pointed out, is formed by TREATY.  What treaty, between which people, determines Israel's border with the as yet non-state of "Palestine"?


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## Shusha (Sep 8, 2017)

Eloy said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > Eloy said:
> ...



Your point being?!


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## Eloy (Sep 8, 2017)

Shusha said:


> Eloy said:
> 
> 
> > Open a book or read a newspaper sometime. When Israel was recognized by the United Nations and admitted as a member, its border was determined. It cannot be changed by an act of war. Israel's occupation for the past half century of the rest of Palestine is illegal.
> ...


Everyone knows what Israel's border was in 1948. That border has never been changed by international treaty.


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## Shusha (Sep 8, 2017)

Eloy said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > Eloy said:
> ...



So?  International law is based on the premise of consent between Parties.


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## Shusha (Sep 8, 2017)

Eloy said:


> Everyone knows what Israel's border was in 1948. That border has never been changed by international treaty.



Really?  What treaty delineates a border between Israel and the not-yet-state of Palestine.  Come on.  If "everyone" knows it -- it should be really easy to name it.


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## Shusha (Sep 8, 2017)

Eloy said:


> That border has never been changed by international treaty.



We agree.  The border of Israel has NEVER been changed by international treaty.


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## Eloy (Sep 8, 2017)

Shusha said:


> Eloy said:
> 
> 
> > Shusha said:
> ...


The Jewish people live all over the world and have no connection to Israel unless they choose to do so. When I wrote "the Jews" in the context of the border of Israel, it was clear I mean 75% of Israelis who are Jewish and want to have a Jewish state, a state for Jews, not Israeli minorities such as Muslims or Christians. Reference to the Jews in this context deliberately avoids inclusion of the Jewish people who are not citizens of Israel but of other countries such as Iran, Ireland, and Italy.


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## flacaltenn (Sep 8, 2017)

Eloy said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > Eloy said:
> ...



Sure.  Before the war when Israel could have marched into Amman or Cairo.. Conflict has consequences. You fight wars to PREVENT future conflict.


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## Eloy (Sep 8, 2017)

Shusha said:


> Eloy said:
> 
> 
> > Shusha said:
> ...


Fundamentally, Israel is considered a country, not because the Jews declared it to be so but because it succeeded in getting recognition from other countries (principally the USA for some reason) and eventually by the United Nations. It joined the UN and in so doing, the international community, with its border agreed. The Israel which is a member state of the UN is not the Israel that includes East Jerusalem, Judea and Samaria, and Gaza.


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## Shusha (Sep 8, 2017)

Eloy said:


> Fundamentally, Israel is considered a country, not because the Jews declared it to be so but because it succeeded in getting recognition from other countries (principally the USA for some reason) and eventually by the United Nations. It joined the UN and in so doing, the international community, with its border agreed. The Israel which is a member state of the UN is not the Israel that includes East Jerusalem, Judea and Samaria, and Gaza.



blah, blah, blah, blah.  

TREATIES make borders.  What treaty makes a border between Israel and the non-existent "Palestine"?


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## Eloy (Sep 8, 2017)

Shusha said:


> Eloy said:
> 
> 
> > That border has never been changed by international treaty.
> ...


Therefore, the border of Israel is that of 1948 with a subsequent change by treaty in 1967 between Jordan and Egypt. This did not give sovereignty to Israel over East Jerusalem, Judea, Samaria, the Golan Heights, and Gaza.


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## Shusha (Sep 8, 2017)

Eloy said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > Eloy said:
> ...



Oh boy.  Where to start.  

The border between Jordan and Israel, by treaty, includes Judea and Samaria and East Jerusalem as part of Israel.  

The border between Egypt and Israel, by treaty, includes Gaza as part of Israel.


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## Eloy (Sep 8, 2017)

Shusha said:


> Eloy said:
> 
> 
> > Fundamentally, Israel is considered a country, not because the Jews declared it to be so but because it succeeded in getting recognition from other countries (principally the USA for some reason) and eventually by the United Nations. It joined the UN and in so doing, the international community, with its border agreed. The Israel which is a member state of the UN is not the Israel that includes East Jerusalem, Judea and Samaria, and Gaza.
> ...


What happens beyond a country's border does not change the sovereignty rights of a country. Israel's border cannot change because another country, Jordan, ceded Palestinian territory to the indigenous Arabs in the Occupied Territories.


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## Shusha (Sep 8, 2017)

Eloy said:


> Therefore, the border of Israel is that of 1948 with a subsequent change by treaty in 1967 between Jordan and Egypt. This did not give sovereignty to Israel over East Jerusalem, Judea, Samaria, the Golan Heights, and Gaza.



No borders changed in 1948 or in 1967. Borders were established in 1923 (Treaty of Lausanne) and in 1979 and 1994 (Treaties with Egypt and Jordan, respectively).


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## Eloy (Sep 8, 2017)

flacaltenn said:


> Eloy said:
> 
> 
> > Shusha said:
> ...


Hitler said as much when he invaded the Soviet Union.


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## Shusha (Sep 8, 2017)

Eloy said:


> What happens beyond a country's border does not change the sovereignty rights of a country. Israel's border cannot change because another country, Jordan, ceded Palestinian territory to the indigenous Arabs in the Occupied Territories.



1.  Jordan never had sovereignty over the territory, therefore could not cede it to anyone. 

2.  You can't cede territory to an entity which has no legal status.

You are woefully ignorant about how international law works.


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## flacaltenn (Sep 8, 2017)

montelatici said:


> Oh shut up.
> 
> *
> "What evidence is there that the Temple of Solomon existed?*
> ...



And the site of the 1st Temple matters -- why???  Isn't 565 BC early enough for you??


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## Eloy (Sep 8, 2017)

Shusha said:


> Eloy said:
> 
> 
> > Shusha said:
> ...


You've got the wrong end of the stick there.


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## flacaltenn (Sep 8, 2017)

Eloy said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > Eloy said:
> ...



Hitler wasn't simultaneously attacked by 5 hostile neighbors -- was he? Try harder..


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## Eloy (Sep 8, 2017)

Shusha said:


> Eloy said:
> 
> 
> > What happens beyond a country's border does not change the sovereignty rights of a country. Israel's border cannot change because another country, Jordan, ceded Palestinian territory to the indigenous Arabs in the Occupied Territories.
> ...


Jordan occupied East Palestine (the West Bank, including East Jerusalem) and, as all occupiers must do, ceded control to the Palestinian people who alone have sovereignty over the Occupied Territories.


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## Shusha (Sep 8, 2017)

Eloy said:


> You've got the wrong end of the stick there.



Wow.  What a stunningly convincing argument.  /sarcasm


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## Eloy (Sep 8, 2017)

Shusha said:


> Eloy said:
> 
> 
> > Therefore, the border of Israel is that of 1948 with a subsequent change by treaty in 1967 between Jordan and Egypt. This did not give sovereignty to Israel over East Jerusalem, Judea, Samaria, the Golan Heights, and Gaza.
> ...


I'm sorry, you lost me there.


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## Shusha (Sep 8, 2017)

Eloy said:


> Jordan occupied East Palestine (the West Bank, including East Jerusalem) and, as all occupiers must do, ceded control to the Palestinian people who alone have sovereignty over the Occupied Territories.



"East Palestine"?!  What treaty created East Palestine and West Palestine?  Who signed it?  What were the agreements made?  Who were the Parties to the agreement?

You are literally making stuff up from thin air.  You brought up the concept of treaties making international law.  What treaties are you using to make up this so-called international law?


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## Shusha (Sep 8, 2017)

And Jordan did NOT cede control to the "Palestinian people".  Have you even read the treaty?  The treaty between Israel and Jordan confirms a border between their two nations.  It says NOTHING about the "Palestinian people".


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## Shusha (Sep 8, 2017)

Eloy said:


> I'm sorry, you lost me there.



Of course, I've lost you.  You don't appear to have any knowledge about the treaties which form the basis of law with respect to this conflict.  So you talk about 1948 as though a treaty was signed in that year.  None was.  And you talk about 1967 as though a treaty was signed in that year.  None was.  So why would you bring up 1948 or 1967?!  There is no relevancy there because there are no treaties that apply signed in those years.


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## Eloy (Sep 8, 2017)

flacaltenn said:


> Eloy said:
> 
> 
> > flacaltenn said:
> ...


Yes, he was. Before Hitler attacked the Soviet Union, Germany had been attacked by France, England with declarations of war by South Africa, Canada. Australia, New Zealand, Norwegian resistance partisans, Jugoslavia, Greece, and so forth.


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## Sixties Fan (Sep 8, 2017)

Eloy said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > Eloy said:
> ...



But, Eloy.....Who started WWII ?


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## Eloy (Sep 8, 2017)

Shusha said:


> Eloy said:
> 
> 
> > I'm sorry, you lost me there.
> ...





Shusha said:


> Eloy said:
> 
> 
> > Jordan occupied East Palestine (the West Bank, including East Jerusalem) and, as all occupiers must do, ceded control to the Palestinian people who alone have sovereignty over the Occupied Territories.
> ...





Shusha said:


> And Jordan did NOT cede control to the "Palestinian people".  Have you even read the treaty?  The treaty between Israel and Jordan confirms a border between their two nations.  It says NOTHING about the "Palestinian people".





Shusha said:


> Eloy said:
> 
> 
> > I'm sorry, you lost me there.
> ...


International treaties are agreements between countries. It is not as clear cut as you imagine. For example, people might declare the independence or creation of a state such as the Jews did in Palestine. This happened in 1948. You are saying that Israel did not exist after 1948 because international treaty did not recognize it. You can hold onto that view and in some respects I agree with you but it is Friday night and I have yet to pick my horses for the races tomorrow so I cannot write a book of the history of Israel for you. We are talking past each other because you are making multiple posts about Lausanne and stuff getting away from the point. It is a game you play. I have tried discussing Israel with you before and got nowhere. It is a waste of time. Let's put it this way. I give up.


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## Eloy (Sep 8, 2017)

Sixties Fan said:


> Eloy said:
> 
> 
> > flacaltenn said:
> ...


That all depends on whom you ask. Since you asked me, I would say WWII started itself.


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## Roudy (Sep 8, 2017)

Eloy said:


> Sixties Fan said:
> 
> 
> > Eloy said:
> ...


Ha Ha!  WWII started itself?


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## Sixties Fan (Sep 8, 2017)

Eloy said:


> Sixties Fan said:
> 
> 
> > Eloy said:
> ...



It does not depend on whom one asks.
History is there.  It is very clear.
Your answer is depending on what you have read, who you have listened to and what you have chosen to believe in.

Second, you seem to be mistaking International Law with Treaties.
You do not seem to know what they are and who uses each one.

The UN recognized that Israel was ready to be an Independent country in 1947 and announced so.

Israel declared Independence in May 1948, and as such became a country.

There is no such thing as International treaties.  There are Treaties between countries, like the treaties Israel signed with Egypt and Jordan.

They are not International Treaties.  They are simply Treaties.


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## Roudy (Sep 8, 2017)

TNHarley said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > TNHarley said:
> ...


Yes, Muslims do have a history on the Temple Mount! They invaded and then they built a mosque smack on top of the holiest site of the people they invaded.  They did that in every country they invaded and Islamicized, including Turkey.


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## Roudy (Sep 8, 2017)

Eloy said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > Eloy said:
> ...


"The Jewish people live all over the world and have no connection to Israel unless they choose to do so."

Hee hee hee ho ho ho!  You don't know a lot of Jews, do you?!


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## Roudy (Sep 8, 2017)

Eloy said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > Eloy said:
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Wow! Jordan deeded cintrol to the Palestinian people?!  Link?  

Amazing the amount of ignorance that is out there!


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## Eloy (Sep 8, 2017)

Sixties Fan said:


> Eloy said:
> 
> 
> > Sixties Fan said:
> ...


Stop contradicting me. Quit asking me questions if all you want to do is contradict.



Sixties Fan said:


> Second, you seem to be mistaking International Law with Treaties.
> You do not seem to know what they are and who uses each one.


Treaties are international law.
"A treaty is an agreement under international law entered into by actors in international law, namely sovereign states and international organizations."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty[/QUOTE]



Sixties Fan said:


> The UN recognized that Israel was ready to be an Independent country in 1947 and announced so.
> 
> Israel declared Independence in May 1948, and as such became a country.


I do not know what it means to say that the UN recognized that Israel was ready to be an independent country. It strikes me as odd that the United Nations would be referencing a country which did not exist in 1947. In any event, the mere declaration of independence does not a country make. The Palestine people have declared statehood but the USA does not recognize the state of Palestine while other countries do so.



Sixties Fan said:


> There is no such thing as International treaties.  There are Treaties between countries, like the treaties Israel signed with Egypt and Jordan.
> 
> They are not International Treaties.  They are simply Treaties.


You are playing with words adopting a condescending tone as if you know better than me. Treaties are international in nature.


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## Sixties Fan (Sep 9, 2017)

Let us not forget that the Mandate for Palestine was about creating a country/state in the region of Palestine, just as the other three Mandates, post WWI.
Syria, Lebanon and Iraq were created once they fulfilled all the requirements needed to become a country.

Out of the Mandate for Palestine came Jordan in 77% of the area designated for that Mandate.
The UN Partition resolved to create two States instead of one due to the riots created by the Arabs.  One Jewish and one Arab.

For those who are ignorant of how Israel became a State, and the Arabs ended up with no State, here is the Partition resolution which allowed Israel to be created.

_"United Nations General Assembly Resolution 181 called for the partition of the British-ruled Palestine Mandate into a Jewish state and an Arab state. It was approved on November 29, 1947 with 33 votes in favor, 13 against, 10 abstentions and one absent (see list at end of document)._

_The resolution was accepted by the Jews in Palestine, yet rejected by the Arabs in Palestine and the Arab states."_

http://www.mfa.gov.il/mfa/foreignpolicy/peace/guide/pages/un general assembly resolution 181.aspx

The British put an end to their Mandate. Israel became a State in May of 1948.  The Arabs declared war the next day.

Israel signed a Peace Treaty with two sovereign States in later decades.  Egypt and Jordan.
Palestine is not a sovereign State. It cannot become one until it renounces wanting to destroy Israel and enters into negotiations with Israel, as did Egypt and Jordan, and a Peace Treaty is signed.

Here is a background history

Milestones: 1945–1952 - Office of the Historian


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## jillian (Sep 9, 2017)

Roudy said:


> TNHarley said:
> 
> 
> > Roudy said:
> ...



cute how an anti-semite thought those facts were funny. 

but he'll cry and say he's not an anti-semite. he just likes arab revisionist history.


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## jillian (Sep 9, 2017)

Eloy said:


> You are playing with words adopting a condescending tone as if you know better than me. Treaties are international in nature.



I'm not interested in arguing your anti-israel garbage.... but I'll point out that there are a lot of arab countries that didn't exist prior to UN decree or British mandate. one of the reasons we can smell an anti-semite from a mile away is the ease with which they say Israel should not exist but the UAE and Iraq are hunky dory.

and stop whining about being contradicted... who do you think you are that you shouldn't;t be contradicted?


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## Roudy (Sep 9, 2017)

jillian said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > TNHarley said:
> ...


He will also tell you that he isn't an antisemite, just anti Zionist, which is the same, or worse.  Ha ha ha!


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## Shusha (Sep 9, 2017)

Eloy said:


> You are saying that Israel did not exist after 1948 because international treaty did not recognize it.


Where on earth did you get THAT idea?  Israel existed from the time of the Treaty of Lausanne (1923).  Neither admission to the UN, nor recognition at the UN, nor Israel's declaration of independence caused Israel to exist, but they did confirm that Israel met all the criteria necessary.  



> We are talking past each other because you are making multiple posts about Lausanne and stuff getting away from the point. It is a game you play. I have tried discussing Israel with you before and got nowhere. It is a waste of time. Let's put it this way. I give up.


You brought up treaties.  Discussing the Treaty of Lausanne and the treaties of peace between Israel and Egypt and Jordan ARE the treaties which create the international law which describes the conflict.  Its not a game.  Its the very documentation upon which the Parties to the conflict agreed.  If we are going to discuss the legal aspects of the conflict -- these are the documents which create the legality.  We have to discuss them.  Or at least acknowledge them.  

The reason we get no where is because you have an idea in your head -- that East Jerusalem and the Old City and the Temple Mount and Judea and Samaria and Gaza legally belong to some made-up entity called "Palestine".  You believe there is a border between "Palestine" and Israel.  There isn't.  There has the potential to be.  But right now, there isn't.  There won't be until negotiations are complete and a peace treaty is written and signed by the Parties to the conflict.  

So, let's negotiate.


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## Eloy (Sep 11, 2017)

Sixties Fan said:


> Let us not forget that the Mandate for Palestine was about creating a country/state in the region of Palestine, just as the other three Mandates, post WWI.
> Syria, Lebanon and Iraq were created once they fulfilled all the requirements needed to become a country.
> 
> Out of the Mandate for Palestine came Jordan in 77% of the area designated for that Mandate.
> ...


Israel should not have been allowed to be a sectarian Jewish state regardless of how many countries agreed.


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## Eloy (Sep 11, 2017)

jillian said:


> Eloy said:
> 
> 
> > You are playing with words adopting a condescending tone as if you know better than me. Treaties are international in nature.
> ...


Stop being rude.


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## Eloy (Sep 11, 2017)

Shusha said:


> Eloy said:
> 
> 
> > You are saying that Israel did not exist after 1948 because international treaty did not recognize it.
> ...


Whatever I think, no-one except the Israeli Jews believes that East Jerusalem is part of Israel.


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## Shusha (Sep 11, 2017)

Eloy said:


> Israel should not have been allowed to be a sectarian Jewish state regardless of how many countries agreed.



Why?  This happened all over the world -- nations and empires dividing along ethnic and religious lines.  India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Slovakia and the Czech Republic, Serbia, Montenegro, Kosovo, Slovenia, Macedonia, Croatia, Bosnia and Herzegovina, the former USSR nations, too many nations in Africa to count. 

Why do you have a different standard for the Jewish people and Israel?


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## Shusha (Sep 11, 2017)

Eloy said:


> Whatever I think, no-one except the Israeli Jews believes that East Jerusalem is part of Israel.



Fortunately, international law does not depend on what people believe.  

Why shouldn't the Old City and the Temple Mount belong to Israel?  What reasons would you give?


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## Eloy (Sep 11, 2017)

Shusha said:


> Eloy said:
> 
> 
> > Whatever I think, no-one except the Israeli Jews believes that East Jerusalem is part of Israel.
> ...


"Why shouldn't the Old City and the Temple Mount belong to Israel?"
Because East Jerusalem in occupied territory, occupied by the Israelis who should go home, as directed to do so by the United Nations Security Council.


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## Shusha (Sep 11, 2017)

Eloy said:


> "Why shouldn't the Old City and the Temple Mount belong to Israel?"
> Because East Jerusalem in occupied territory, occupied by the Israelis who should go home, as directed to do so by the United Nations Security Council.



So, the only reason you think the Old City and the Temple Mount should not be under Israel's sovereignty is because you believe, incorrectly, that part of the territory belongs to Israel and part to "Palestine".  See?  You keep falling back to that one (demonstrably false) "claim".  You are locked into such a narrow view of the conflict that you can't see the bigger picture.


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## Eloy (Sep 11, 2017)

Shusha said:


> Eloy said:
> 
> 
> > "Why shouldn't the Old City and the Temple Mount belong to Israel?"
> ...


No; I repeat what the United Nations declares in accordance with international law.
Forgive me but I am wasting my time responding to you.


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## Shusha (Sep 11, 2017)

Eloy said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > Eloy said:
> ...



International law has created no boundary between Israel and Palestine.  The 1949 Armistice Agreements specifically prohibit the Green Line from being a border.  UNSC 242 does not create a new State.  All claims by other States (ie Jordan) have been addressed in other treaties.  

Just consider for a moment, that the territory is still in dispute and the final boundaries between Israel and "Palestine" have yet to be determined (a good idea since this is legally correct) -- why should the Old City and the Temple Mount NOT be under Israeli sovereignty?


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## Eloy (Sep 11, 2017)

Shusha said:


> Eloy said:
> 
> 
> > Shusha said:
> ...


But there is no dispute about the status and fact of the Occupied Territories. Naturally, the Israeli Zionists would like everyone to think this. If I'm not mistaken, what you are writing what is the Israeli position.


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## Shusha (Sep 11, 2017)

Eloy said:


> But there is no dispute about the status and fact of the Occupied Territories. Naturally, the Israeli Zionists would like everyone to think this. If I'm not mistaken, what you are writing what is the Israeli position.



Even the Oslo Accords only say that the territories are disputed and the subject of final status negotiations.  Your "belief" is unsupportable in law.


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## montelatici (Sep 11, 2017)

Shusha said:


> Eloy said:
> 
> 
> > But there is no dispute about the status and fact of the Occupied Territories. Naturally, the Israeli Zionists would like everyone to think this. If I'm not mistaken, what you are writing what is the Israeli position.
> ...



Not only supportable, it is the law, since UNSC resolutions are international law.

*"Resolution 478*
The Security Council,

Recalling its resolution 476 (1980),

Reaffirming again that the acquisition of territory by force is inadmissible,

Deeply concerned over the enactment of a "basic law" in the Israeli Knesset proclaiming a change in the character and status of the Holy City of Jerusalem, with its implications for peace and security,

Noting that Israel has not complied with resolution 476 (1980),

Reaffirming its determination to examine practical ways and means, in accordance with the relevant provisions of the Charter of the United Nations, to secure the full implementation of its resolution 476 (1980), in the event of non-compliance by Israel,

1. Censures in the strongest terms the enactment by Israel of the "basic law" on Jerusalem and the refusal to comply with relevant Security Council resolutions;

2. Affirms that the enactment of the "basic law" by Israel constitutes a violation of international law and does not affect the continued application of the Geneva Convention relative to the Protection of Civilian Persons in Time of War, of 12 August 1949, in the Palestinian and other Arab territories occupied since June 1967, including Jerusalem;

*3. Determines that all legislative and administrative measures and actions taken by Israel, the occupying Power, which have altered or purport to alter the character and status of the Holy City of Jerusalem, and in particular the recent "basic law" on Jerusalem, are null and void and must be rescinded forthwith;"

*
S/RES/478 (1980) of 20 August 1980


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## Sixties Fan (Sep 11, 2017)

montelatici said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > Eloy said:
> ...



UN Resolutions have become nothing more than the Muslim and Christian majority in the organization, Way to bash Israel and try to destroy it.

NONE of these resolutions are LEGALLY biding.


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## BulletProof (Sep 12, 2017)

Sixties Fan said:


> UN Resolutions have become nothing more than the Muslim and Christian majority in the organization, Way to bash Israel and try to destroy it.
> 
> NONE of these resolutions are LEGALLY biding.



Hey Jew, the non-biding and vetoed resolutions against Israel are all substantially valid, in spite of your whining that the apartheid, supremacist Antichrist state that illegally occupies land of several neighbors, and continually commits war crimes against those occupied people being is being picked on.


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## Roudy (Sep 12, 2017)

"Hey Jew, blah blah blah racism, IslamoNazism, verbal vomit blah blah blah, antichrist blah blah blah garbaggio, stupidity, bigotry..."

And yet, despite all that nonsensical irrelvant antisemitic braying, Israel remains in control of land it's ancient Temple sat on, Jews are free to pray and worship at that site, and Israel will do as it pleases, including rebuilding and restoring the Temple.


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## Shusha (Sep 12, 2017)

montelatici said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > Eloy said:
> ...




UNSC resolutions do not create States nor do they or can they assign territory to States.  The only States in existence in the territory with respect to Jerusalem were (are) Israel and Jordan.  Israel and Jordan made a peace treaty which clearly delineates whose land is whose.  Jerusalem is within the territory of Israel.  

Further, Article 31.5 of the Israeli-Palestinian Interim Agreement states:

_Permanent status negotiations will commence as soon as possible ... between the Parties.  It is understood that these negotiations shall cover remaining issues including *Jerusalem*, refugees, settlements, security arrangements, *borders*, relations and cooperation with other neighbors, and other issues of common interest._  (emphasis mine)


These issues are all subject to permanent status negotiation and a peace treaty.  Always have been.


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## Eloy (Sep 15, 2017)

Shusha said:


> montelatici said:
> 
> 
> > Shusha said:
> ...


I tend to agree that the acceptance of Israel as a state by the United Nations has been a disaster.


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## Shusha (Sep 15, 2017)

Eloy said:


> I tend to agree that the acceptance of Israel as a state by the United Nations has been a disaster.



I agree.  If only the UN had strongly stood up for the rights of Israel, things would have turned out much better.


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## BulletProof (Sep 15, 2017)

Shusha said:


> I agree.  If only the UN had strongly stood up for the rights of Israel, things would have turned out much better.



If the UN had strongly stood up for the rights of the Palestinians, things would have turned out much better.  Who oppresses whom?


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## Shusha (Sep 15, 2017)

BulletProof said:


> Who oppresses whom?



THAT is a fascinating question.  But you are not going to like my answer.  

The Jewish people are being oppressed.  Still.  Again.  (This is especially true with respect to the topic of this particular thread).  Yes, the Jewish people are being oppressed by the Palestinians, by the Arabs, by the Muslims, by the UN and in a large part by the international community.


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## fanger (Sep 15, 2017)

change jewish for israeli, you are not being oppressed


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## Shusha (Sep 15, 2017)

The Israeli Jews are being oppressed.


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## fanger (Sep 15, 2017)

Canadian jews are not being oppressed, even if they post personal political opinion's during work hours


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## teddyearp (Sep 15, 2017)

BulletProof said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > I agree.  If only the UN had strongly stood up for the rights of Israel, things would have turned out much better.
> ...


The UN did that in 1947, the Arabs (now known as Palestinians) rejected it in favor of attempting to wipe the Jews out of the land completely.


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## teddyearp (Sep 15, 2017)

Eloy said:


> <snip>occupied by the Israelis who should go home, as directed to do so by the United Nations Security Council.


I am curious as to where 'home' is in your opinion that the Israeli's should go to? This should be interesting.


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## Roudy (Sep 15, 2017)

I am glad that we all agree that the Jews can and should build or repair their holy temple in their holy land.


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## Roudy (Sep 16, 2017)

fanger said:


> teddyearp said:
> 
> 
> > Eloy said:
> ...


Jerusalem is mentioned 900 times in the Jewish Old Testament and not once in your Koran.  Even in your Koran Muhammad says the land was promised eternally to the Jews.  That's why the Jews are once again home in their religious, spiritual, and ancestral holy land, and not only deserve to rebuild their temple, but SHOULD.  It was there thousands of years before the first Arab Muslim barbarian invader defiled the land.


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## Eloy (Sep 16, 2017)

teddyearp said:


> Eloy said:
> 
> 
> > <snip>occupied by the Israelis who should go home, as directed to do so by the United Nations Security Council.
> ...





teddyearp said:


> Eloy said:
> 
> 
> > <snip>occupied by the Israelis who should go home, as directed to do so by the United Nations Security Council.
> ...


Israel


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## Sixties Fan (Sep 16, 2017)

Eloy said:


> teddyearp said:
> 
> 
> > Eloy said:
> ...



Where Israel is, is home for the Jews.
Where Judea and Samaria are, is also home for the Jews.  It is their most ancient land with Jews living on that land, non stop for 3000 years.

So, you agree, the Jews are home.


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## Eloy (Sep 16, 2017)

Sixties Fan said:


> Eloy said:
> 
> 
> > teddyearp said:
> ...


The world, including the Pacific Island state of Nauru, differs from your belief.


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## Sixties Fan (Sep 16, 2017)

Eloy said:


> Sixties Fan said:
> 
> 
> > Eloy said:
> ...



Too Bad !!!!


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## Shusha (Sep 16, 2017)

Eloy said:


> The world, including the Pacific Island state of Nauru, differs from your belief.



The "world" does not get to dictate the borders of sovereign States.  Its not a popularity contest.


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## IsaacNewton (Sep 16, 2017)

If you go back far enough on Earth there was only dirt and bugs crawling around. This whole laying claim to a patch of dirt forever is nonsense. That two of the three major religions murder each other over a piece of dirt pretty much paints a picture of who they really are. All the people there worship the map to their savior, not their savior. They worship the story, the narrative. And they'll kill anyone that tells them the story has an alternate ending.


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## Shusha (Sep 16, 2017)

IsaacNewton said:


> If you go back far enough on Earth there was only dirt and bugs crawling around. This whole laying claim to a patch of dirt forever is nonsense. That two of the three major religions murder each other over a piece of dirt pretty much paints a picture of who they really are. All the people there worship the map to their savior, not their savior. They worship the story, the narrative. And they'll kill anyone that tells them the story has an alternate ending.



The point is NOT the patch of dirt.  The point is the inviolable human right to practice one's religious faith.


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## Roudy (Sep 16, 2017)

IsaacNewton said:


> If you go back far enough on Earth there was only dirt and bugs crawling around. This whole laying claim to a patch of dirt forever is nonsense. That two of the three major religions murder each other over a piece of dirt pretty much paints a picture of who they really are. All the people there worship the map to their savior, not their savior. They worship the story, the narrative. And they'll kill anyone that tells them the story has an alternate ending.


So...now that Arab Muslims have historically invaded and Islamicized the entire region using murder, rape, theft and terror to shove their religion and culture down the throats of the people they invaded, wouldn't you say that Muslims should back off and let the ONE Jewish state established on Jewish holy lands comprising of less than 1% of land in the Middle East, that is surrounded by an ocean of Arab / Muslim barbaric states, remain?


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## Roudy (Sep 16, 2017)

Shusha said:


> Eloy said:
> 
> 
> > The world, including the Pacific Island state of Nauru, differs from your belief.
> ...


Just as the world stands by and let's genocide after genocide occur, the latest being the genocide in Syria that has created ISIS terrorism throughout the world, and the worldwide refugee problem.  

Thank you, Obama.


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## Shusha (Sep 16, 2017)

Also, let's consider that "all three major religions" wouldn't BE fighting about a "patch of dirt" if two of those religions hadn't stolen and usurped that "patch of dirt" from its proper owner.


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## IsaacNewton (Sep 17, 2017)

Roudy said:


> IsaacNewton said:
> 
> 
> > If you go back far enough on Earth there was only dirt and bugs crawling around. This whole laying claim to a patch of dirt forever is nonsense. That two of the three major religions murder each other over a piece of dirt pretty much paints a picture of who they really are. All the people there worship the map to their savior, not their savior. They worship the story, the narrative. And they'll kill anyone that tells them the story has an alternate ending.
> ...



The three 'god's of peace' would want their followers to fight to the death and slaughter millions. Over dirt. 

Sounds like the Dark Ages. But of course if you belong to one of these religions you feel absolutely sure it's ok for YOU to commit genocide. 

THERE IS NOTHING NEW UNDER THE SUN.


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## Roudy (Sep 17, 2017)

IsaacNewton said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > IsaacNewton said:
> ...


Your historical knowledge is severely difficient, when you lump in Judaism with what Islam and Christianity ha done, especially in the Jewish holy land.  Of course you belong to a group who claims to be against any faith or religion but forgets that so called atheists have actually killed and committed more genocide than than the world's religions, "over dirt".


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## IsaacNewton (Sep 17, 2017)

Roudy said:


> IsaacNewton said:
> 
> 
> > Roudy said:
> ...



The weird thing is I'm sure you believe all that crap. Carry on Klinger.


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## Sixties Fan (Sep 17, 2017)

IsaacNewton said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > IsaacNewton said:
> ...



The problem could be that you believe what you say.  What "gods of peace" are you talking about?

One of them is most certainly NOT a god of peace.
The other two, one is a G-D, and the other one is not, except in the eyes who have gone around turning dirt all over the world "in his name".

Amazing how people who know nothing of the first religion, lump it with the other two.


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## IsaacNewton (Sep 17, 2017)

Sixties Fan said:


> IsaacNewton said:
> 
> 
> > Roudy said:
> ...



Riiiight, "my religion is the TRUE religion, everyone knows that". Every person in each of the 4,000 religions practiced on Earth right now believes their religion is the 'true' religion. And by extension anyone denying that has to 'know nothing of the 'first' religion'. 

Yes tell us, when was the first religion started? Not YOUR religion, the first one.


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## Sixties Fan (Sep 17, 2017)

IsaacNewton said:


> Sixties Fan said:
> 
> 
> > IsaacNewton said:
> ...



Judaism has none of that.  You are confusing Judaism with the two other ones which borrowed, stole and then tried to impose their replacement on Judaism especially.

All other pagan beliefs are really called cults, now they are known as religions.
Judaism was also known as a cult.  
There is no knowledge when the first group of people came to  believe in a god and follow it.  
And Judaism has never tried to impose its vision of what religion and a god, or gods should be, to anyone.

Why is it, Mr. Newton, with your genius, that you are not aware of that?

Jews are defending their homeland, the way the Kurds are defending their homeland, the way the 500 Nations tried to defend their homelands from the invading, conquering groups.

No?  You do not believe it?  You want to see it end?  Especially by Israel putting an end to this conflict so that you can sleep better?

Is it going to end all the other conflicts which exist today and will continue to exist tomorrow, and which have nothing to do with Judaism or Israel?


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## Shusha (Sep 17, 2017)

IsaacNewton said:


> Riiiight, "my religion is the TRUE religion, everyone knows that". Every person in each of the 4,000 religions practiced on Earth right now believes their religion is the 'true' religion. And by extension anyone denying that has to 'know nothing of the 'first' religion'.
> 
> Yes tell us, when was the first religion started? Not YOUR religion, the first one.



I think Sixties was trying to say that MOST people have a poor understanding of the Jewish faith.


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## IsaacNewton (Sep 17, 2017)

Sixties Fan said:


> IsaacNewton said:
> 
> 
> > Sixties Fan said:
> ...



My comment is on the ubiquitous idiocy of all religions to kill others 'for their faith'. Whatever it is. You conjured up all these other subjects or arguments.

And don't worry, these conflicts won't end, because 95% of the human population is not educated enough to understand you should be worshiping and mimicking your deity rather than worshiping the map on how to get to your deity. People can't get past the animalistic level of this equation and will continue to murder each other ad infinitum.

I'm sure with each claiming their god approves of the murders they commit.


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## Sixties Fan (Sep 17, 2017)

Shusha said:


> IsaacNewton said:
> 
> 
> > Riiiight, "my religion is the TRUE religion, everyone knows that". Every person in each of the 4,000 religions practiced on Earth right now believes their religion is the 'true' religion. And by extension anyone denying that has to 'know nothing of the 'first' religion'.
> ...



Basically, all they know is what Christians and Muslims have told them.
It has been from the very first day of Christianity, when so many knew nothing about Judaism and did not care to learn. And even before that, cults could not understand why Judaism could believe in only one G-D.
"Unacceptable"


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## Sixties Fan (Sep 17, 2017)

IsaacNewton said:


> Sixties Fan said:
> 
> 
> > IsaacNewton said:
> ...



"All religions" ?
Speak for yourself. 
People were murdering others for territory and women and babies and other things long before they ever created gods and religions to believe in.

You can't explain that, can you?
You have to put some humans need to conquer territory and be the master over others as something which only exists if any god exists.  It is being done for those gods.

No, genius, you should know better than that, but you do not.


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## IsaacNewton (Sep 17, 2017)

Sixties Fan said:


> IsaacNewton said:
> 
> 
> > Sixties Fan said:
> ...



You have a great need to project your beliefs on others. Bye now.


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## Sixties Fan (Sep 17, 2017)

IsaacNewton said:


> Sixties Fan said:
> 
> 
> > IsaacNewton said:
> ...



I just love people who know how to discuss issues. And then ruuuuuunnnnnn


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## Roudy (Sep 17, 2017)

IsaacNewton said:


> Sixties Fan said:
> 
> 
> > IsaacNewton said:
> ...


And the followers of which faith/s have historically done most of the killing in the name of their faith, for land resources and power?

Answer: not the Jews!

Funny, the mental midget with an obvious deficient knowledge of history, calls himself "Issac Newton".  Ha ha ha.


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## Eloy (Sep 18, 2017)

Shusha said:


> IsaacNewton said:
> 
> 
> > If you go back far enough on Earth there was only dirt and bugs crawling around. This whole laying claim to a patch of dirt forever is nonsense. That two of the three major religions murder each other over a piece of dirt pretty much paints a picture of who they really are. All the people there worship the map to their savior, not their savior. They worship the story, the narrative. And they'll kill anyone that tells them the story has an alternate ending.
> ...


Jews from Moldova and other parts of eastern Europe did not, nor do not, have an inviolable right to steal land from indigenous Palestinians in order to make their sectarian state.


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## Hollie (Sep 18, 2017)

Eloy said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > IsaacNewton said:
> ...


When you use the slogan 'indigenous Pal'istanians" you're referring to the Islamist invaders / conquerors, right?


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## Sixties Fan (Sep 18, 2017)

[Fascinating.  Since 1948, how Muslim history has changed.  Just look as to what Muslims believe, now, that King Solomon built.  More proof that Jews must not listen to Muslims and go ahead with rebuilding the third Temple?  Or will it take seeing who wins the next wars promised by Hamas and Hezbollah ? Adam, Noah, Moses, King David, King Solomon, King Saul.........all Muslims, because there is truly on other people but Muslims in the world, there have always been, according to Modern (or not so modern) Islamic thinking]

Thus, Suleiman tells his audience (from 18:00 of the speech) that “Solomon is the most important king in the history of Jerusalem. Why? You always hear of the Temple of Solomon.” While that sounds like an acknowledgement of Jewish history, Suleiman immediately adds that Solomon “built about 40 masjids [mosques],” including “Masjid Al-Aqsa.” He then proceeds to spell out this vile effort to Islamicize Jewish history in some more detail:

“And as he [Solomon] builds Masjid Al-Aqsa — and I want you guys to realize, so I’m just going to clear that from now, Masjid Al-Aqsa is that entire rectangle, that entire sanctuary, it is humongous, that is actually all Masjid Al-Aqsa; the Dome of the Rock is at the center of it, so that entire compound is Masjid Al-Aqsa. So Solomon builds that all out, the original Temple of Solomon, what’s known as the Temple of Solomon, right, the first time that Masjid Al-Aqsa would be built in that caliber, right, he built it throughout. The Old Testament has a lot of detail about how lavish and how elaborate the masjid was when Suleiman [sic] built it, but we don’t know if it’s actually true or not.”

So according to Suleiman, we may not know “how lavish and how elaborate” Solomon’s buildings really were, but we do know that he didn’t really build a Jewish Temple because he built “Masjid Al-Aqsa.” This is a particularly pernicious form of Temple denial: following the bizarre “logic” of Suleiman’s narrative — which apparently reflects mainstream Muslim myths — there couldn’t be a legitimate Jewish Temple at the site that Muslim imagine to have been “Masjid Al-Aqsa” since the time of Adam.

(full article online)

When Solomon built Al Aqsa: Omar Suleiman’s vile efforts to Islamicize the Temple Mount  (Petra Marquardt-Bigman) ~ Elder Of Ziyon - Israel News


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## teddyearp (Sep 21, 2017)

teddyearp said:


> Eloy said:
> 
> 
> > <snip>occupied by the Israelis who should go home, as directed to do so by the United Nations Security Council.
> ...


Israel[/QUOTE]
Well, that's where they are then. Glad we agree . . .


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## Eloy (Sep 22, 2017)

teddyearp said:


> teddyearp said:
> 
> 
> > Eloy said:
> ...


No, the Israelis are not at home in Israel alone but occupying the Palestinian Territories.
You should open a newspaper sometime.


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## RoccoR (Sep 22, 2017)

RE: Should Israel repair the Temple. 
※→  Eloy, Shusha, IsaacNewton, _et al,_

I guess it is a question of "motive."  

•  Is _(was)_ the removal a matter of the acquisition of wealth and financial gain?  
-- OR -- 
•  Is _(was)_ it a matter of protection and preservation?​


Eloy said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > IsaacNewton said:
> ...


*(COMMENT)*

There is little question as to the essential need to maintain, and when necessary, engaged in restoration and advocacy on behalf of the world's cultural, architectural and archeological heritage.  It doesn't matter which cultural or the complex natural of the item.  All that matters is that item/location represents a significant historical aspect.

Now we know that some of the Radicalized followers of cults and religions have, in recent times, destroyed not only culturally significant antiquities, but entire sites as well.

There is no question, that humanity needs to protect and preserve artifacts and antiquities of historical significants as a matter of course set by the 21st Century morality.

Most Respectfully,
R


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## teddyearp (Sep 22, 2017)

Eloy said:


> You should open a newspaper sometime.


I have been watching the Arab/Palestinian leadership paint the Palestinians into a very bad corner all my life. I have been on this planet a very long time.


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## Eloy (Sep 22, 2017)

teddyearp said:


> Eloy said:
> 
> 
> > You should open a newspaper sometime.
> ...


Then you should have known better than to pretend that you did not know it is the occupation of the Palestinian Territories and the brutal fashion in how this occupation is maintained that turns the stomachs of so many in the liberal democracies of Europe whose political class generally side with the Israelis for some reason.


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## teddyearp (Sep 22, 2017)

I do know better than to believe the lie(s) that I've been lied to all my life whenever I remember watching the Arabs/Palestinians lead and/or influence their people to 'peaceful activism'. Like the 'peaceful activism' that started the '67 war. The 'peaceful activism' during the 1972 Olympics I watched very closely. Etc., etc. Maybe those are the same things the political class in Europe is remembering as well.  It seems as though modern liberalism is losing touch with reality. Like Antifa.


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## Eloy (Sep 22, 2017)

teddyearp said:


> I do know better than to believe the lie(s) that I've been lied to all my life whenever I remember watching the Arabs/Palestinians lead and/or influence their people to 'peaceful activism'. Like the 'peaceful activism' that started the '67 war. The 'peaceful activism' during the 1972 Olympics I watched very closely. Etc., etc. Maybe those are the same things the political class in Europe is remembering as well.  It seems as though modern liberalism is losing touch with reality. Like Antifa.


Forgive me but we do not share the same language. I mean I don't understand you.


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## Sixties Fan (Sep 22, 2017)

Eloy said:


> teddyearp said:
> 
> 
> > Eloy said:
> ...



There are NO "Palestinian Territories". And the rest of your rant is nothing but garbage which comes from Pallywood.  This studio should really earn endless awards in pulling the wool over so many people's eyes.

The only ones being brutal are Hamas against all of those in Gaza who have no power to oust them.  And Abbas against all of those who have no power to oust him and the other leaders in the PA.
A PA which continues to teach in schools and everywhere else the OPPOSITE of what the Oslo Accords, signed by Arafat, demanded of the Arabs in order to achieve a Peace Treaty with Israel.

We know that it is NOT occupied territories by the Jews and Israel.
It was occupied territories by Egypt on Gaza, and the Hashemites over Judea, Samaria and the Jewish Quarter of Jerusalem.

The Jews had the decency to not expel all the Arabs from Judea and Samaria and the Jewish Quarter of Jerusalem in 1967 after Jordan dared to attack Israel again, for more land for itself.

Too bad.  Israel should have done what the Arabs did to the Jews considering that it IS Jewish land, which was going to be part of Israel in 1948, had so many Arab new countries not been so full of themselves and thought that they could destroy Israel first in 1948, and then in 1967.
And THEN, they tried it again in 1973.

So, do get your history together.
Do get the right place where any Arab belongs.  Arabia.
All other places the Arabs are now a majority from outside Arabia to North Africa is INVADED  and CONQUERED and OCCUPIED territory by the Arab Muslims.

Let us see you talk about that for a change.
How to return all of that land to its rightful Peoples and put an end to the Arab Muslim occupation which has been going on for 1400 years?

Muslims who do not only want to occupy the ME, North Africa, but also the rest of the world.

Just ask any Imam at any Mosque, and any of the leaders of ISIS, Al Queida, Taliban, etc, etc.

Muslim and European occupation of all of the lands they conquered for the past 1400 years must end, do you not agree?

Free the People !!!! 

Free the indigenous People's of every occupied, conquered land by the Christian and Muslim invaders.


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## Sixties Fan (Sep 22, 2017)

Eloy said:


> teddyearp said:
> 
> 
> > I do know better than to believe the lie(s) that I've been lied to all my life whenever I remember watching the Arabs/Palestinians lead and/or influence their people to 'peaceful activism'. Like the 'peaceful activism' that started the '67 war. The 'peaceful activism' during the 1972 Olympics I watched very closely. Etc., etc. Maybe those are the same things the political class in Europe is remembering as well.  It seems as though modern liberalism is losing touch with reality. Like Antifa.
> ...



What did you not understand.  Muslims going into a Sports event and killing athletes because they were Jews, Israelis?

Or how so many in Europe and elsewhere are selling themselves and reverting to the allowing Jews become the endless target of brain dead people, with brain dead ideas which should have ended with WWII and what was done to the Jews, by then.

It is very simple.  Like ABC

Christianity is an ideology of hatred and subjugation of all Jews.

Islam is an ideology of hatred and subjugation of all Jews.

Both ideologies have for a long time done horrible things to the Jews, separately.

Since last century, the sick ones in each religion have banded together
TO DO HORRIBLE THINGS TO THE JEWS.

Why?  Because neither sick ones in each religion can stand that Jews have sovereignty and freedom of any kind.

Their favorite time in the world.  The Holocaust, where 6 Million Jews were murdered and the Christians and Muslims got away with doing so.

I am totally off topic, but the Temple is the business of the Jews, which the Muslims and Christians do not want them to have any sovereignty over, much less build the third Temple, or anything else on land the sick Muslims see as theirs.

Muslims conquered it, it belongs to them.  
So goes the sick thinking of sick Muslims.

When Christians and Muslims stop teaching the next generations nothing but hatred and superiority and the right to "replace" the Jews and Judaism and Israel, THEN  there will be peace in that region.


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## RoccoR (Sep 22, 2017)

RE: Should Israel repair the Temple. 
※→ Eloy, teddyearp, _et al,_

The use of a military administration in the West Bank, as the legitimate power having actually passed from the Jordanians into the hands of the occupant (Israel), the security in-depth did not instantly start-out with hundreds of security checkpoints, a security barrier, controlled roads, the Administrative Areas A, B, C, and a heavy police presence.  It was a case of a gradual escalation _(to re-establish and insure, as far as possible, public order and safety)_ in response to the threat posed to non-combatants and Civilians on the Israeli side of the Armistice Line _(IAW Article 43 HR)_.  



Eloy said:


> teddyearp said:
> 
> 
> > Eloy said:
> ...


*(COMMENT)*Tahoma

The value of the Security Fence/Barrier has both a measurable metric (lives) dramatic on the overall number of incidents.





​
No one single security countermeasure is the answer to the threat posed then _(in a time before the barrier) _and now _(after a portion of the barrier is complete)_.  Israel not only has a near border security consideration to contend with, but also a nation-wide level threat.   That is why Israel needs to consider the triad: defense in-depth, protection in-depth and security in-depth.  

Believe me when I say that Israel did not want to spend the billions of dollars it has already spent --- or --- the billions of dollars more it will spend to to keep the Hostile Arab Palestinians at bay.  But so long as Israel needs to maintain a defensive perimeter in-depth to preserve and defend the sovereign integrity of the Jewish State; and so long as the Arab Palestinians_ (in cooperation with other Arab League resources and Iran)_ wish to collapse the Jewish State, Israel will work in its best interest to protect the most developed country in the region.  That is no different than any other would do; including any of the 22 Arab League States which have openly attacked Israel in the past.

Most Respectfully,
R


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## Shusha (Sep 22, 2017)

Eloy said:


> In this instance, it is important to understand the Israeli agenda in the Palestinian Occupied Territories.



The Israeli agenda at the Temple Mount?  What?!  To be able to freely visit and worship at their own Most Holy Site?!  The NERVE!  The HORROR!  Can these horrid Jews GET any more evil?

/sarcasm

*The Muslim, the Arab and the Palestinian people have demonstrated, time and time and time again, that they do not have the capacity to ensure that human rights are protected.  *

This was clearly obvious in the latest round of violence, by Arab Muslims, on the Temple Mount, assisted by the waqf, followed by more violence, by Arab Muslim Palestinians, in response to security measures directly introduced due to their own violence.  It is crazy-making.  

THIS is the reason why the Jewish people absolutely must retain sovereignty and control over our Temple Mount.  Precious, irreplaceable, cultural monuments simply must not be in the possession of people who will protect neither the monument itself nor the lives and rights of visitors and worshipers.


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## Shusha (Sep 22, 2017)

Eloy said:


> Then you should have known better than to pretend that you did not know it is the occupation of the Palestinian Territories and the brutal fashion in how this occupation is maintained that turns the stomachs of so many in the liberal democracies of Europe whose political class generally side with the Israelis for some reason.






RoccoR said:


> The use of a military administration in the West Bank, as the legitimate power having actually passed from the Jordanians into the hands of the occupant (Israel), the security in-depth did not instantly start-out with hundreds of security checkpoints, a security barrier, controlled roads, the Administrative Areas A, B, C, and a heavy police presence.  *It was a case of a gradual escalation (to re-establish and insure, as far as possible, public order and safety) in response to the threat posed to non-combatants and Civilians on the Israeli side of the Armistice Line (IAW Article 43 HR).  *



The irony is that with all the complaints of "brutal occupation", the Palestinians refuse to take responsibility for their actions which cause the security measures.  They confuse the order of events. 

In the minds of the Palestinians, the order of events is:

Israel puts up security checkpoints at the Temple Mount, thus creating a "brutal occupation" of the Temple Mount.
Arabs justifiably "resist" in order to end the "brutal occupation".
But in reality, the order of events is:

Arabs murder Israelis on the Temple Mount.
Israelis introduce security measures to protect its citizens. 

The security measures can't be rescinded as long as Arabs are still trying to murder Israelis.  (Which is why the removal of the metal detectors at the Temple Mount was such a horrible mistake when viewed from this lens.  Yes, I know there were other reasons.)


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## RoccoR (Sep 23, 2017)

RE: Should Israel repair the Temple.
SubRef: Posting #363
※→ Eloy, _et al, (and those who are sick)..._

I think you might want to revisit your comment here. But, you may pke all you want, you still have it wrong, and I'll explain only one reason you blundered.



Eloy said:


> If your posts were a little less respectful to the members of *USMessageBoard* and more respectful of the truth about the Israeli occupation of the Palestinian Territories, they would be easier to read without puking. The Israelis are not a legitimate power in the Occupied Territories because it is prohibited by international law to acquire territory through war. They should go home.


*(PRINCIPLE REFERENCES)*

•  Article 10, Covenant League of Nations (1919)
"The Members of the League undertake to respect and preserve as against external aggression the territorial integrity and existing political independence of all Members of the League. In case of any such aggression or in case of any threat or danger of such aggression the Council shall advise upon the means by which this obligation shall be fulfilled."​•  Chapter I, Article 2(4), Charter - United Nations (1945)
"All Members shall refrain in their international relations from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of any state, or in any other manner inconsistent with the Purposes of the United Nations."​•  Chapter VII, Article 51, Charter - United Nations (1945)
"Nothing in the present Charter shall impair the inherent right of individual or collective self-defence if an armed attack occurs against a Member of the United Nations"​•  Emphasis, UN Security Council Resolution 242 (S/RES/242) (1967)
"_Emphasizing_ the inadmissibility of the acquisition of territory by war and the need to work for a just and lasting peace in which every State in the area can live in security,"​•  Principle #1:  Principles of International Law concerning Friendly Relations and Co-operation among States, UN Resolution 2625 (XXV) (A/RES/25/2625) (1970)
"The principle that States shall refrain in their international relations from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of any State, or in any other manner inconsistent with the purposes of the United Nations,"​•  Article 5(3), UN Resolution 3314 (XXIX) (A/RES/29/3314) (1974)
"3. No territorial acquisition or special advantage resulting from aggression is or shall be recognized as lawful."​•  Article 3(d), UN Resolution 3314 (XXIX) (A/RES/29/3314) (1974)
"(An)act of aggression:  An attack by the armed forces of a State on the land, sea or air forces, or marine and air fleets of another State;"​
*(COMMENT)*

There is a very key phrase that dates back to the Great War (WWI), and the Covenant:  "any threat or danger of such aggression."  Today, that is more often states under the Rule of Law as:  "threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence."

What constitutes a threat of set of threats.  Surely, in May 1948, when the several member nations of the Arab League notified the Secretary General that they intended to mount military operations against Israel if they declared independence, and did so on 15 May, that constituted a "threat."  In May 1967, when Egypt ordered the UN Emergency Force (Peace Keepers) to leave the Sinai and then rushed nearly a 100,000 troops, 900 tanks and a like number of field artillery pieces to the Israeli front, that constituted a threat.  When, in June 1967, the Jordanian opened an artillery bombardment on Israel, that constituted a threat.

In the case of the territory that came under the control of the Israelis in 1967, that control was made through the lawful use of force under Chapter VII of the UN Charter _(self-defense)_ to protect and defend the State of Israel under Article 2(4) and Principle #1 of International Law.

In addition:   The acquisition of sovereign territory is not (remotely) the same as the occupation of territory secured during the pursuit of retreating aggressor Arab Forces.

Additionally:  In 1988, when Jordan cut all ties with the West Bank and Jerusalem, Jordan abandon that territory in the hands of Israel which held effective control."  What make this significant is that this very same action created the condition known as:



​This is the case where Jordan was the "prior sovereign" that "expressly and implicitly relinquished sovereignty."  That placed the territory in the hands of Israel, having effective control.

You made the accusation that:  "The Israelis are not a legitimate power in the Occupied Territories because it is prohibited by international law to acquire territory through war."  While many people believe that the Hostile Arab Palestinians are owed some special privileged relative to the territory, the fact of the matter is that the conditions seen today are a direct result of Arab League Members, in collusion with the HoAP, demonstrated an aggressor threat and lost territory while in retreat.  THEN, they relinquished sovereignty over the territory.

I can see why you might be sick, given that you did not get a single point you made --- correct.

Most Respectfully,
R


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## K9Buck (Sep 23, 2017)

RoccoR said:


> I can see why you might be sick, given that you did not get a single point you made --- correct.
> R



That idiot never gets anything correct.  In another thread he said Israel started the "six-day" war.  I laughed so hard I was rolling on the floor and my wife asked me if I was ok.  When I recovered, I asked him to explain how Israel started that war.  Of course, he didn't respond.


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## Eloy (Sep 23, 2017)

RoccoR said:


> RE: Should Israel repair the Temple.
> SubRef: Posting #363
> ※→ Eloy, _et al, (and those who are sick)..._
> 
> ...


Palestinian children massacred in Gaza and terrorized in the West Bank, including East Jerusalem, are not a threat to Israel.


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## Sixties Fan (Sep 25, 2017)

This is a strong case that Jews continued to ascend to the Temple Mount to pray up through the 13th century, and when that was not possible only then would they pray at whatever site afforded them proximity or a view of the holy spot on the Temple Mount.

The Kotel is just as holy as any other part of the retaining wall of the Second Temple, although the western part is closer to the Holy of Holies and therefore more desirable. This is why so many (usually women) are found reading Psalms all day at the site of the Western Wall tunnels nearest the Holy of Holies.

It is also why the "Kotel HaKatan," the "Little Western Wall" to the north of the Kotel, is actually a holier spot than the Kotel itself. But that wasn't available for prayer, apparently, until much more recently, while the Kotel was been a gathering spot for prayer since the 16th century.

This article, rather than taking away from the holiness of the Kotel, actually proves the holiness to Jews of the entire surrounding areas of the Temple Mount in all directions, and how the scores of existing Muslim structures on those holy walls are actually a desecration of the Jewish holy site.  The article shows the veneration that Jews have always shown towards the Temple Mount.

(full article online)

"Pro-Palestinian" Jews inadvertently make case for Jewish prayer on Temple Mount ~ Elder Of Ziyon - Israel News


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## Roudy (Sep 25, 2017)

Eloy said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > RE: Should Israel repair the Temple.
> ...


E-slow forgets all the crimes against humanity and terrorism such as shooting missiles from schools, suicide bombings, stab attacks, running over people with vehicles that Palestinians regularly engage in.


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