# Draft: Would you go?



## History

So if the country had a draft* today* to fight in the Middle East, would you go?


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## Mr. H.

At my age?


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## BDBoop

Mr. H. said:


> At my age?



Roger that. But in the late 70's, early 80's when I was in the guards? Yeah. Absolutely.


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## theDoctorisIn

I'm too old to be drafted. 


.


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## Gracie

If I were younger...yes.


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## theDoctorisIn

Even if I was young enough, I'd qualify as a CO, if there was a draft.


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## Politico

Hell yes. Everyone should serve.


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## Sunni Man

I was drafted for a senseless war in 1970.

IMO, the draft should only be utilized if our country is attacked and we need to defend our borders.    

No to the draft for foreign intervention wars.    ..    

.


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## Bluedog

Yes. I believe in serving my country. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## 9thIDdoc

I went.


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## martybegan

At 38 I'm probably long in the tooth, but my education (Chemical Engineering) would probably flag me for the leaky suit brigade, and the age requirements for that don't matter as much.

I would go.


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## Defiant1

In '72 I had a very low lottery number so I enlisted before I was drafted.

I like making my own choices.  It worked out well.

I believe every young person should serve.


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## Jughead

Absolutely.


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## 9thIDdoc

theDoctorisIn said:


> Even if I was young enough, I'd qualify as a CO, if there was a draft.



Being CO may not get you out of being drafted. In Vietnam there were more than a few CO medics.


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## Defiant1

theDoctorisIn said:


> Even if I was young enough, I'd qualify as a CO, if there was a draft.




In the Navy sailors who claimed to be COs were sent down into the bilges to polish the Golden Rivet.


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## HereWeGoAgain

To old and beat up at this point.
The only reason I didnt serve in my youth? No wars....
   When 9/11 went down I was to old and was highly pissed about it.


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## Delta4Embassy

History said:


> So if the country had a draft* today* to fight in the Middle East, would you go?



No. All wars eventually end, and so far, former enemies always become friends. Instead of going to war and making the corporations who provide everything used in them richer, how about instead we try pretending we had the war, and now move on to the being friends part?

Only justifiable war today is one against an alien invasion force threatening everyone. Fighting amongst ourselves is fucking stupid.


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## BDBoop

Delta4Embassy said:


> History said:
> 
> 
> 
> So if the country had a draft* today* to fight in the Middle East, would you go?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No. All wars eventually end, and so far, former enemies always become friends. Instead of going to war and making the corporations who provide everything used in them richer, how about instead we try pretending we had the war, and now move on to the being friends part?
> 
> Only justifiable war today is one against an alien invasion force threatening everyone. Fighting amongst ourselves is fucking stupid.
Click to expand...


So you would head for Canada?


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## Delta4Embassy

BDBoop said:


> Delta4Embassy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> History said:
> 
> 
> 
> So if the country had a draft* today* to fight in the Middle East, would you go?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No. All wars eventually end, and so far, former enemies always become friends. Instead of going to war and making the corporations who provide everything used in them richer, how about instead we try pretending we had the war, and now move on to the being friends part?
> 
> Only justifiable war today is one against an alien invasion force threatening everyone. Fighting amongst ourselves is fucking stupid.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> So you would head for Canada?
Click to expand...


Nah, not a fan of the cold. I'm from California so would look for some equatorial sorta destination. Though I've been here in Missouri 14 years, I still have my California IDs. I'm kinda in denial.


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## theDoctorisIn

9thIDdoc said:


> theDoctorisIn said:
> 
> 
> 
> Even if I was young enough, I'd qualify as a CO, if there was a draft.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Being CO may not get you out of being drafted. In Vietnam there were more than a few CO medics.
Click to expand...


I'd have no problem being a medic, or any other sort of non-combat support.

I have no medical training, though.


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## Sunni Man

When I was in basic training there were several mexican guys drafted from San Antonio, Texas in my unit.

They all claimed CO status (conscientious objector) so that they would be assigned as medics and sent back to Ft. Sam Houston in San Antonio for training and to be around their families.

Little did they know at the time that having an MOS as a medic was a straight ticket to Vietnam.    ...    

.


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## martybegan

theDoctorisIn said:


> 9thIDdoc said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> theDoctorisIn said:
> 
> 
> 
> Even if I was young enough, I'd qualify as a CO, if there was a draft.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Being CO may not get you out of being drafted. In Vietnam there were more than a few CO medics.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I'd have no problem being a medic, or any other sort of non-combat support.
> 
> I have no medical training, though.
Click to expand...


They can teach you. Your job is basically sedate and patch up enough to get the wounded person back for medical help.


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## Bill Angel

Defiant1 said:


> In '72 I had a very low lottery number so I enlisted before I was drafted.
> 
> I like making my own choices.  It worked out well.
> 
> I believe every young person should serve.



I had a similar experience in 1970. My low lottery number motivated me to join up and serve in the Navy. I  served about 2 1/2 years on active duty, all spent at shore stations in the USA. Now that I'm 66 I'm getting a lot of benefit from the VA healthcare system, which fortunately  treats non service connected illnesses in veterans.


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## dblack

Nope


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## Moonglow

Hell yes I'd go!


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## aplcr0331

Delta4Embassy said:


> History said:
> 
> 
> 
> Only justifiable war today is one against an alien invasion force threatening everyone. Fighting amongst ourselves is fucking stupid.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wouldn't the alien invasion eventually become our friends, like everyone else?
> 
> There should never be a draft. Ever.
Click to expand...


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## regent

There are many other ways to serve one's country. If I remember correctly, Romney's boys helped their father in his campaign for president and Romney explained that was like doing military service. I think that's what I would like to do, I mean tour the country campaigning for a future presidnt, but I wouldn't want to leave the country or have to wear a uniform or go to far from home. Well maybe the uniform might be allright if it was like a general's uniform with lots medals.


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## Mr Natural

To fight in the Middle East?

No fuckin' way.


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## PredFan

Richard Nixon, a Republican, ended the Vietnam war, started by a democrat, when I was 17. I was prepared to go. I used to tell people back then that if I got drafted I would go.

I'd go still but I doubt they need a 58 year old.


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## Desperado

Sunni Man said:


> I was drafted for a senseless war in 1970.
> 
> IMO, the draft should only be utilized if our country is attacked and we need to defend our borders.
> 
> No to the draft for foreign intervention wars.    ..
> 
> .



I was drafted in 72 just missing Vietnam.  I served my time, got out and never looked back.
The draft is wrong for a supposedly free country.  The draft runs counter to the US Constitution's 13th amendment  which  prohibits involuntary servitude.  That said. if they were to bring back the draft for Obama's Mid East wars I would not serve (too old) but I would do everything I could to help any draft age men and women avoid the military.

Now if our borders were being attack I don't think you would need a draft because there would be an abundant amount of volunteers.


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## 9thIDdoc

theDoctorisIn said:


> 9thIDdoc said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> theDoctorisIn said:
> 
> 
> 
> Even if I was young enough, I'd qualify as a CO, if there was a draft.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Being CO may not get you out of being drafted. In Vietnam there were more than a few CO medics.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I'd have no problem being a medic, or any other sort of non-combat support.
> 
> I have no medical training, though.
Click to expand...


But the medics I'm speaking of were by no means all in the rear with the gear. Many were combat medics and went everywhere the infantry did and were killed and wounded just the same. The only difference is they were not issued weapons. Many awards for valor were made to COs including the Medal of Honor.


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## theDoctorisIn

9thIDdoc said:


> theDoctorisIn said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 9thIDdoc said:
> 
> 
> 
> Being CO may not get you out of being drafted. In Vietnam there were more than a few CO medics.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'd have no problem being a medic, or any other sort of non-combat support.
> 
> I have no medical training, though.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> But the medics I'm speaking of were by no means all in the rear with the gear. Many were combat medics and went everywhere the infantry did and were killed and wounded just the same. The only difference is they were not issued weapons. Many awards for valor were made to COs including the Medal of Honor.
Click to expand...


I'm fine with that. Getting shot at isn't the issue for me, it's the shooting people that I'm not OK with.


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## Connery

Politico said:


> Hell yes. Everyone should serve.




I did and used to feel that way until I had a son. As far as I am concerned I gave  enough of myself for him and his kids not to serve in the military.


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## RetiredGySgt

Unless we go to war with a major adversary like China or Russia there will be no draft. The ONLY reason liberals bring it up is in the hopes they can get protest going since none of their wimpy protests worked against Afghanistan and Iraq.


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## BDBoop

To all who answered no: If the draft was in place, how would you get out of it.


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## Luddly Neddite

No.

War is the most stupid thing humans waste their time, energy, money and lives on. 

Instead, we need to work on ending it. 

How would I get out of it?

Hell if I know. 

In my day (Vietnam), guys worked in hospitals taking care of the poor victims of the utter stupidity of war. Or, they left the country.

Canada got some of our best and brightest.


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## Luddly Neddite

regent said:


> There are many other ways to serve one's country. If I remember correctly, Romney's boys helped their father in his campaign for president and Romney explained that was like doing military service. I think that's what I would like to do, I mean tour the country campaigning for a future presidnt, but I wouldn't want to leave the country or have to wear a uniform or go to far from home. Well maybe the uniform might be allright if it was like a general's uniform with lots medals.



Romneu didn't serve either. 

He hid out in Paris, living in the lap of luxury. 

Fact is, its the poor who defend their country and then pay the price for the rest of their lives.


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## 9thIDdoc

Luddly Neddite said:


> No.
> 
> War is the most stupid thing humans waste their time, energy, money and lives on.
> 
> Instead, we need to work on ending it.
> 
> How would I get out of it?
> 
> Hell if I know.
> 
> In my day (Vietnam), guys worked in hospitals taking care of the poor victims of the utter stupidity of war. Or, they left the country.
> 
> Canada got some of our best and brightest.



And most irresponsible and self-centered. I don't mind that they left but they should never have been allowed to come back.


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## Luddly Neddite

9thIDdoc said:


> theDoctorisIn said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 9thIDdoc said:
> 
> 
> 
> Being CO may not get you out of being drafted. In Vietnam there were more than a few CO medics.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'd have no problem being a medic, or any other sort of non-combat support.
> 
> I have no medical training, though.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> But the medics I'm speaking of were by no means all in the rear with the gear. Many were combat medics and went everywhere the infantry did and were killed and wounded just the same. The only difference is they were not issued weapons. Many awards for valor were made to COs including the Medal of Honor.
Click to expand...


Thanks for posting this. 

People don't know the service that CO's did for their country.


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## Mr. H.

theDoctorisIn said:


> 9thIDdoc said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> theDoctorisIn said:
> 
> 
> 
> Even if I was young enough, I'd qualify as a CO, if there was a draft.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Being CO may not get you out of being drafted. In Vietnam there were more than a few CO medics.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I'd have no problem being a medic, or any other sort of non-combat support.
> 
> I have no medical training, though.
Click to expand...


So you're a PhD doctor and not a boo-boo doctor?

Or are you a Sears doctor?


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## Luddly Neddite

9thIDdoc said:


> Luddly Neddite said:
> 
> 
> 
> No.
> 
> War is the most stupid thing humans waste their time, energy, money and lives on.
> 
> Instead, we need to work on ending it.
> 
> How would I get out of it?
> 
> Hell if I know.
> 
> In my day (Vietnam), guys worked in hospitals taking care of the poor victims of the utter stupidity of war. Or, they left the country.
> 
> Canada got some of our best and brightest.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And most irresponsible and self-centered. I don't mind that they left but they should never have been allowed to come back.
Click to expand...


Its actually the opposite of irresponsible and self-centered. 

And, no way should  people be forced to kill. 

This IS America, you know.


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## Mr. H.

So far, this thread has progressed more cordially than many in the CDZ. 
Kudos to you all.


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## Desperado

Luddly Neddite said:


> And, no way should  people be forced to kill.



In a war that we had no business being involved in.  
Over 50,000 US lives lost for what reason?


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## Big Black Dog

I think every person should be required to do two years in the military immediately after high school and before college.


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## 9thIDdoc

Luddly Neddite said:


> 9thIDdoc said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Luddly Neddite said:
> 
> 
> 
> No.
> 
> War is the most stupid thing humans waste their time, energy, money and lives on.
> 
> Instead, we need to work on ending it.
> 
> How would I get out of it?
> 
> Hell if I know.
> 
> In my day (Vietnam), guys worked in hospitals taking care of the poor victims of the utter stupidity of war. Or, they left the country.
> 
> Canada got some of our best and brightest.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And most irresponsible and self-centered. I don't mind that they left but they should never have been allowed to come back.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Its actually the opposite of irresponsible and self-centered.
> 
> And, no way should  people be forced to kill.
> 
> This IS America, you know.
Click to expand...


As I already pointed out it's altogether possible to serve without being "forced to kill". How would anyone force someone to kill anyway? False excuse.
Those COs I knew were not cowards and were truly willing to die for their beliefs. I respected them deeply until I realized that they were also willing to let the helpless casualties in their care die for their beliefs or even me.


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## theDoctorisIn

Mr. H. said:


> theDoctorisIn said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 9thIDdoc said:
> 
> 
> 
> Being CO may not get you out of being drafted. In Vietnam there were more than a few CO medics.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'd have no problem being a medic, or any other sort of non-combat support.
> 
> I have no medical training, though.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> So you're a PhD doctor and not a boo-boo doctor?
> 
> Or are you a Sears doctor?
Click to expand...


Not a doctor at all, actually. It's a nickname, not a job description.

But I _will_ be a PhD in about 2 years.


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## namvet

my war's over


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## Drake_Roberts

History said:


> So if the country had a draft* today* to fight in the Middle East, would you go?



Hmmm. For a country I don't have any faith in and disagree with on just about every level? No. For a cause I believe in? Hell, yes!


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## Drake_Roberts

Luddly Neddite said:


> No.
> 
> War is the most stupid thing humans waste their time, energy, money and lives on.
> 
> Instead, we need to work on ending it.
> 
> How would I get out of it?
> 
> Hell if I know.
> 
> In my day (Vietnam), guys worked in hospitals taking care of the poor victims of the utter stupidity of war. Or, they left the country.
> 
> Canada got some of our best and brightest.



Wanna know how to end war? Not bomb the hell out of the Middle East. Unite the world under one government that is fair to everyone and gives everyone equal representation. Pool all of the world's scientists and their research together to solve humanity's problems. Keep young men from dying in war. Continue research into space travel so that if a group caused enough ruckus, they could be offered the choice of surrender, destruction, or colonizing worlds lightyears away from the rest of the world.


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## jasonnfree

Luddly Neddite said:


> regent said:
> 
> 
> 
> There are many other ways to serve one's country. If I remember correctly, Romney's boys helped their father in his campaign for president and Romney explained that was like doing military service. I think that's what I would like to do, I mean tour the country campaigning for a future presidnt, but I wouldn't want to leave the country or have to wear a uniform or go to far from home. Well maybe the uniform might be allright if it was like a general's uniform with lots medals.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Romneu didn't serve either.
> 
> He hid out in Paris, living in the lap of luxury.
> 
> Fact is, its the poor who defend their country and then pay the price for the rest of their lives.
Click to expand...


Agreed about the poor usually doing the fighting but  being involved in Vietnam was in no way defending this country.  Same with Iraq and Afghanistan.


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## 9thIDdoc

jasonnfree said:


> Luddly Neddite said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> regent said:
> 
> 
> 
> There are many other ways to serve one's country. If I remember correctly, Romney's boys helped their father in his campaign for president and Romney explained that was like doing military service. I think that's what I would like to do, I mean tour the country campaigning for a future presidnt, but I wouldn't want to leave the country or have to wear a uniform or go to far from home. Well maybe the uniform might be allright if it was like a general's uniform with lots medals.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Romneu didn't serve either.
> 
> He hid out in Paris, living in the lap of luxury.
> 
> Fact is, its the poor who defend their country and then pay the price for the rest of their lives.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Agreed about the poor usually doing the fighting but  being involved in Vietnam was in no way defending this country.  Same with Iraq and Afghanistan.
Click to expand...


Untrue.


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## NoNukes

History said:


> So if the country had a draft* today* to fight in the Middle East, would you go?



Would it be man and women drafted, or just men?


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## NoNukes

PredFan said:


> Richard Nixon, a Republican, ended the Vietnam war, started by a democrat, when I was 17. I was prepared to go. I used to tell people back then that if I got drafted I would go.
> 
> I'd go still but I doubt they need a 58 year old.



One of the main reasons Nixon ended the war was because of pressure from the left. We made people realize what a senseless war it was, and that we had no business being there.


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## jasonnfree

9thIDdoc said:


> jasonnfree said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Luddly Neddite said:
> 
> 
> 
> Romneu didn't serve either.
> 
> He hid out in Paris, living in the lap of luxury.
> 
> Fact is, its the poor who defend their country and then pay the price for the rest of their lives.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Agreed about the poor usually doing the fighting but  being involved in Vietnam was in no way defending this country.  Same with Iraq and Afghanistan.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Untrue.
Click to expand...


So what threats were Vietnam, Iraq, or Afghanistan to america?  Our interfering in middle east policies on behalf of big oil for sure made enemies for us in the middle east, but it's not like afghanistan or iraq has the military capabilities to threaten America.  Vietnam.  What was USA doing there in the first place?  I was wondering about that when I was in the Navy on a westpac cruise just before the Tonkin Gulf incident. Even back then I thought the domino theory was a load of bull.  America was becoming a warmonger country but better the navy than the draft. Other more advanced countries invest in education, infrastructure, and health care, while we've used our great wealth to interfere  in other nations' business all over the world instead.


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## Jarlaxle

BDBoop said:


> To all who answered no: If the draft was in place, how would you get out of it.



I'm medically ineligible due to bad knees and back problems.


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## Jarlaxle

Big Black Dog said:


> I think every person should be required to do two years in the military immediately after high school and before college.



How evil.


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## whitehall

You really have to wonder about the low information whiny left. American men have been subject to the draft since Wilson decided to save the surrender monkey French from the Hun. I bet the Troops who were stationed in the Philippines before WW2 weren't happy when their commanding general escaped and they were forced to endure the horrors of the Bataan death march. Ironically the same general ordered Americans into the biggest ambush in history in Korea. The point is that draftees don't get to pick and choose their heroic missions. They go where the government tells them to go and hope to God their government is supporting the mission. The only decision you have is in the voting booth.


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## Desperado

whitehall said:


> You really have to wonder about the low information whiny left. American men have been subject to the draft since Wilson decided to save the surrender monkey French from the Hun. I bet the Troops who were stationed in the Philippines before WW2 weren't happy when their commanding general escaped and they were forced to endure the horrors of the Bataan death march. Ironically the same general ordered Americans into the biggest ambush in history in Korea. The point is that draftees don't get to pick and choose their heroic missions. They go where the government tells them to go and hope to God their government is supporting the mission. The only decision you have is in the voting booth.



US civilians were subjected to the draft much earlier than that,  In 1863 the draft was created and it lead to the largest civil insurrection in American history outside of the Civil War itself.  120 killed and 2,000 wounded.  Hopefully congress will keep this in mind if they reconsider reinstating the draft.


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## whitehall

Desperado said:


> whitehall said:
> 
> 
> 
> You really have to wonder about the low information whiny left. American men have been subject to the draft since Wilson decided to save the surrender monkey French from the Hun. I bet the Troops who were stationed in the Philippines before WW2 weren't happy when their commanding general escaped and they were forced to endure the horrors of the Bataan death march. Ironically the same general ordered Americans into the biggest ambush in history in Korea. The point is that draftees don't get to pick and choose their heroic missions. They go where the government tells them to go and hope to God their government is supporting the mission. The only decision you have is in the voting booth.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> US civilians were subjected to the draft much earlier than that,  In 1863 the draft was created and it lead to the largest civil insurrection in American history outside of the Civil War itself.  120 killed and 2,000 wounded.  Hopefully congress will keep this in mind if they reconsider reinstating the draft.
Click to expand...


"Sob...I swear I love the Troops but please don't make me go". Most lefties couldn't point to Afghanistan on the map but they have developed a self described expertise on the conflict in the Middle East. I doubt if the Greatest Generation had an option to become cannon fodder for Eisenhower but they did it because the media supported the effort. Now that the media is relatively silent about Obama's war the sissies have decided that they won't even consider the relatively safe Air Force or the hyped "global force for good" no matter what.


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## Desperado

whitehall said:


> "Sob...I swear I love the Troops but please don't make me go". Most lefties couldn't point to Afghanistan on the map but they have developed a self described expertise on the conflict in the Middle East. I doubt if the Greatest Generation had an option to become cannon fodder for Eisenhower but they did it because the media supported the effort. Now that the media is relatively silent about Obama's war the sissies have decided that they won't even consider the relatively safe Air Force or the hyped "global force for good" no matter what.



Oh my god, I haven't heard this type of bs since the "My Country Right or Wrong" bumper sticker days.  Why are they referred to as the "Greatest Generation", is it because they did not question their president?  
The United States is better off with people that ask "why" than the people that follow orders without questions.


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## whitehall

Years ago every able bodied male could look forward to at least two years working for Uncle. Elvis served honorably in peace time. Military service turned kids into men in two years. Today we have a bunch of blubber attached to the computer or cell phone without a rational thought in their heads until they get to be 40 years old. Maybe that's what democrats count on for votes.


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## bodecea

History said:


> So if the country had a draft* today* to fight in the Middle East, would you go?



Already did my time.


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## regent

What we learned from Vietnam is that a draft works better if the nation is understands and supports the war. If they don't the civilians raise a stink and bingo the draft has to be ended. With a volunteer army we pay more and offer benefits but we can always say, you volunteered for this.


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## Bill Angel

Big Black Dog said:


> I think every person should be required to do two years in the military immediately after high school and before college.



Your idea has merit. First reason is that I think all those young  fellows walking about with their boxer shorts on display (the sagging pants fashion phenomenon ) would benefit from spending several years in the military as such service hopefully would help to enlighten them to focus their thinking  on more serious issues, and to dress more appropriately. Second reason is that there are a good number of young and apparently healthy men hanging about attempting to get money by panhandling at bus stops, in front of stores, etc. The make nuisances of themselves with their loitering and panhandling, and their time would  better spend doing a stint in the military, which would also put some money in their pockets.


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## percysunshine

BDBoop said:


> To all who answered no: If the draft was in place, how would you get out of it.



To all who answered yes or no....is this really the question? By definition, if you are drafted, you either go, or maybe go to Canada or something.

So the real question is, would you be a conscientious objector if there were a draft, or would you volunteer, if there were not a draft?


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## Victory67

If this was 2005 would I go to die in Iraq?

No, I would flee to a country that would give me asylum as a consciouses objector.

I only believe in fighting just wars that we can win.


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## Drake_Roberts

Desperado said:


> whitehall said:
> 
> 
> 
> "Sob...I swear I love the Troops but please don't make me go". Most lefties couldn't point to Afghanistan on the map but they have developed a self described expertise on the conflict in the Middle East. I doubt if the Greatest Generation had an option to become cannon fodder for Eisenhower but they did it because the media supported the effort. Now that the media is relatively silent about Obama's war the sissies have decided that they won't even consider the relatively safe Air Force or the hyped "global force for good" no matter what.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oh my god, I haven't heard this type of bs since the "My Country Right or Wrong" bumper sticker days.  Why are they referred to as the "Greatest Generation", is it because they did not question their president?
> The United States is better off with people that ask "why" than the people that follow orders without questions.
Click to expand...


America is the "Land of the Free"- for those who follow orders without questioning why. Ask that word and forevermore be an outcast. Freedom without independence. Quite an interesting concept.


----------



## 9thIDdoc

I just know that nobody would ever decide that a war was "unjust" and/or unwinnable simply because they had other plans or were just not in the mood to risk getting their ass shot off doing their duty as a citizen. Ask what the country can do for you but how *dare* anyone ask you for any service to it.


----------



## Desperado

9thIDdoc said:


> I just know that nobody would ever decide that a war was "unjust" and/or unwinnable simply because they had other plans or were just not in the mood to risk getting their ass shot off doing their duty as a citizen. Ask what the country can do for you but how *dare* anyone ask you for any service to it.



It is not the duty of a US citizen to get their ass shot off for countries like Vietnam, Iraq or Afghanistan to name a few.  When it comes to wars like these, there is no civic duty to participate.


----------



## Politico

Victory67 said:


> If this was 2005 would I go to die in Iraq?
> 
> No, I would flee to a country that would give me asylum as a consciouses objector.
> 
> I only believe in fighting just wars that we can win.



I would say feel free to leave, Unfortunately your type never stays gone. You slink back to the good life as soon as you think it is safe.


----------



## 9thIDdoc

Desperado said:


> 9thIDdoc said:
> 
> 
> 
> I just know that nobody would ever decide that a war was "unjust" and/or unwinnable simply because they had other plans or were just not in the mood to risk getting their ass shot off doing their duty as a citizen. Ask what the country can do for you but how *dare* anyone ask you for any service to it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It is not the duty of a US citizen to get their ass shot off for countries like Vietnam, Iraq or Afghanistan to name a few.  When it comes to wars like these, there is no civic duty to participate.
Click to expand...


Bullshit. It is the citizen's duty to serve if called; not offer lame-ass excuses. 
Deciding what wars the Country should fight is far outside your job description. Please feel free to keep your whining to yourself


----------



## Wry Catcher

History said:


> So if the country had a draft* today* to fight in the Middle East, would you go?



Hell no!...I enlisted in 1967 and today I could walk along the Vietnam Memorial and tell the short life story of 'kids' I went to school with, played ball with and served with.  

A foreign policy predicated on a paranoid fear is dysfunctional and lead to the fiasco in Vietnam and Iraq.  Let the shiites and sunnis kill each other as they have done for a thousand years.  Not one drop of American blood should be spilled in that conflict.


----------



## Spiderman

I feel no obligation to die for the government.

The "war" in the Middle East is a nothing but the result of political games of brinksmanship.  No country in the Middle East that we are currently engaged in hostilities with is or ever was a threat to the United States.

So the answer is no I would not go.


----------



## Unkotare

Big Black Dog said:


> I think every person should be required to do two years in the military immediately after high school and before college.





Every person goes to college?


----------



## 9thIDdoc

Right. They were just kidding around on 9/11.


----------



## Unkotare

Spiderman said:


> I feel no obligation to die for the government.
> 
> The "war" in the Middle East is a nothing but the result of political games of brinksmanship.  No country in the Middle East that we are currently engaged in hostilities with is or ever was a threat to the United States.
> 
> So the answer is no I would not go.




It's clear what you really "feel." It's the yellow stripe down your back.


----------



## regent

Unkotare said:


> Spiderman said:
> 
> 
> 
> I feel no obligation to die for the government.
> 
> The "war" in the Middle East is a nothing but the result of political games of brinksmanship.  No country in the Middle East that we are currently engaged in hostilities with is or ever was a threat to the United States.
> 
> So the answer is no I would not go.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's clear what you really "feel." It's the yellow stripe down your back.
Click to expand...


How about FDR's war, WWII?


----------



## JakeStarkey

I served as a volunteer, so I don't know.

I would if were of age have had a very difficult time willing to be drafted for Iraq II invasion when it was quite clear SH was not involved with 9-11 and that he was not a threat to the US.

Still . . . I probably would have submitted to the draft.


----------



## GHook93

History said:


> So if the country had a draft* today* to fight in the Middle East, would you go?



Yes


----------



## Dont Taz Me Bro

If we were being attacked by another nation I wouldn't have to be drafted.  I would voluntarily fight for my own nation were we attacked here on our shores.  However, if this were a draft instituted to fight someone else'e wars or one like Iraq where we were the aggressors, then no, I would not.

Since this scenario is highly implausible it doesn't really matter anyway.


----------



## Dont Taz Me Bro

Unkotare said:


> Spiderman said:
> 
> 
> 
> I feel no obligation to die for the government.
> 
> The "war" in the Middle East is a nothing but the result of political games of brinksmanship.  No country in the Middle East that we are currently engaged in hostilities with is or ever was a threat to the United States.
> 
> So the answer is no I would not go.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's clear what you really "feel." It's the yellow stripe down your back.
Click to expand...


Not wanting to die for the personal ambitions of politicians hardly makes someone a coward.


----------



## Zander

I served and if called upon would do it again. 

But I doubt they would be taking folks my age.....


----------



## Mr Natural

No way would I risk my life for someone else's country. Especially the Middle East.

Fuck 'em, let them fight their own wars.


----------



## R.C. Christian

History said:


> So if the country had a draft* today* to fight in the Middle East, would you go?



If this was 1990 or even 2003, then yes, I'd have went. 

Knowing what I know now, I'd encourage everyone to burn a draft card. Fact is I'm too old by 5 years.


----------



## R.C. Christian

Unkotare said:


> Spiderman said:
> 
> 
> 
> I feel no obligation to die for the government.
> 
> The "war" in the Middle East is a nothing but the result of political games of brinksmanship.  No country in the Middle East that we are currently engaged in hostilities with is or ever was a threat to the United States.
> 
> So the answer is no I would not go.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's clear what you really "feel." It's the yellow stripe down your back.
Click to expand...


Go get em' bad ass. You've probably never been behind a gun in your life much less shot at.


----------



## SFC Ollie

How soon we forget or allow ourselves to be blinded.

I enlisted in 71, retired in 93.

In 2001 America was sucker punched and I called a recruiter to see if i could get back in. I couldn't because I'd already had a stent in my heart.

Yet so many sit here on their dead asses and talk shit about how Afghanistan wasn't necessary.  The cowards who attacked us were trained and funded in Afghanistan (Other than the flight training we gave them) We had every right in the world to go in there. And I would have gone in a minute.....


----------



## Unkotare

regent said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Spiderman said:
> 
> 
> 
> I feel no obligation to die for the government.
> 
> The "war" in the Middle East is a nothing but the result of political games of brinksmanship.  No country in the Middle East that we are currently engaged in hostilities with is or ever was a threat to the United States.
> 
> So the answer is no I would not go.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's clear what you really "feel." It's the yellow stripe down your back.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> How about FDR's war, WWII?
Click to expand...




You don't get to 'pick' your war, shitforbrains.


----------



## Unkotare

R.C. Christian said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Spiderman said:
> 
> 
> 
> I feel no obligation to die for the government.
> 
> The "war" in the Middle East is a nothing but the result of political games of brinksmanship.  No country in the Middle East that we are currently engaged in hostilities with is or ever was a threat to the United States.
> 
> So the answer is no I would not go.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's clear what you really "feel." It's the yellow stripe down your back.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Go get em' bad ass.
Click to expand...



Where did I claim "bad ass," R.eally C.an't be a Christian?


----------



## Desperado

9thIDdoc said:


> Right. They were just kidding around on 9/11.



Right, and we invaded Iraq because of it.....
Thanks for playing, better luck next time.


----------



## Unkotare

Dont Taz Me Bro said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Spiderman said:
> 
> 
> 
> I feel no obligation to die for the government.
> 
> The "war" in the Middle East is a nothing but the result of political games of brinksmanship.  No country in the Middle East that we are currently engaged in hostilities with is or ever was a threat to the United States.
> 
> So the answer is no I would not go.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's clear what you really "feel." It's the yellow stripe down your back.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Not wanting to die for the personal ambitions of politicians hardly makes someone a coward.
Click to expand...



Trying to hide behind that excuse when called upon by your country certainly does.


----------



## Desperado

Unkotare said:


> regent said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> It's clear what you really "feel." It's the yellow stripe down your back.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How about FDR's war, WWII?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You don't get to 'pick' your war, shitforbrains.
Click to expand...


I understand there is no draft but with the US involved in multiple wars, with your gung ho attitude Iam sure you volunteer for military service and I was just curious as to what branch of the military you serve in?


----------



## Unkotare

Desperado said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> regent said:
> 
> 
> 
> How about FDR's war, WWII?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You don't get to 'pick' your war, shitforbrains.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I understand there is no draft...
Click to expand...



That's a start. Congratulations on the improvement.


----------



## Desperado

Unkotare said:


> Desperado said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> You don't get to 'pick' your war, shitforbrains.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I understand there is no draft...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> That's a start. Congratulations on the improvement.
Click to expand...


Nice try at avoiding the question.  Did you serve or not. Simple question.
For a gung ho type like you Im sure you felt it was your patriotic duty to enlist.


----------



## regent

Unkotare said:


> regent said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> It's clear what you really "feel." It's the yellow stripe down your back.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How about FDR's war, WWII?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You don't get to 'pick' your war, shitforbrains.
Click to expand...


So you wouldn't have enlisted just waited to be drafted, right?


----------



## JWBooth

History said:


> So if the country had a draft* today* to fight in the Middle East, would you go?


----------



## JWBooth

Unkotare said:


> Spiderman said:
> 
> 
> 
> I feel no obligation to die for the government.
> 
> The "war" in the Middle East is a nothing but the result of political games of brinksmanship.  No country in the Middle East that we are currently engaged in hostilities with is or ever was a threat to the United States.
> 
> So the answer is no I would not go.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's clear what you really "feel." It's the yellow stripe down your back.
Click to expand...


----------



## Unkotare

Desperado said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Desperado said:
> 
> 
> 
> I understand there is no draft...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That's a start. Congratulations on the improvement.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Nice try at avoiding the question.
Click to expand...



I wasn't avoiding anything. I was paying you the considerable compliment of recognizing that you actually posted something true.


As for the rest, I have never served in our nation's armed forces nor have I ever claimed to have done so. I registered for selective service as required but was not called upon during the years I would have likely been eligible for the draft. If called upon I would have of course served, as I would now if some national crisis demanded an expansion of the draft age.


----------



## Unkotare

regent said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> regent said:
> 
> 
> 
> How about FDR's war, WWII?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You don't get to 'pick' your war, shitforbrains.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> So you wouldn't have enlisted just waited to be drafted, right?
Click to expand...




There was a general call to serve at the time, so I would have. 




And don't try to employ tag questions to answer for me, you dishonest fuck.


----------



## regent

Unkotare said:


> regent said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> You don't get to 'pick' your war, shitforbrains.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So you wouldn't have enlisted just waited to be drafted, right?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There was a general call to serve at the time, so I would have.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And don't try to employ tag questions to answer for me, you dishonest fuck.
Click to expand...


Perhaps you shouldn't call people yellow for not wanting to serve, especially since you did not serve. Many people did not want to serve, but they served including a medal winner Sargeant York.


----------



## Unkotare

regent said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> regent said:
> 
> 
> 
> So you wouldn't have enlisted just waited to be drafted, right?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There was a general call to serve at the time, so I would have.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And don't try to employ tag questions to answer for me, you dishonest fuck.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Perhaps you shouldn't call people yellow for not wanting to serve...
Click to expand...



For declaring their refusal to serve even if drafted? I'll call them whatever the fuck I want, thanks.


----------



## Politico

Unkotare said:


> Big Black Dog said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think every person should be required to do two years in the military immediately after high school and before college.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Every person goes to college?
Click to expand...


Of course not. That has nothing to do with it though.


----------



## Spiderman

Unkotare said:


> Spiderman said:
> 
> 
> 
> I feel no obligation to die for the government.
> 
> The "war" in the Middle East is a nothing but the result of political games of brinksmanship.  No country in the Middle East that we are currently engaged in hostilities with is or ever was a threat to the United States.
> 
> So the answer is no I would not go.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's clear what you really "feel." It's the yellow stripe down your back.
Click to expand...


Why don't you prove your bravery and get your ass to Afghanistan?

I'm sure the government would love to see an idiot like you step on an IED.


----------



## Unkotare

Spiderman said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Spiderman said:
> 
> 
> 
> I feel no obligation to die for the government.
> 
> The "war" in the Middle East is a nothing but the result of political games of brinksmanship.  No country in the Middle East that we are currently engaged in hostilities with is or ever was a threat to the United States.
> 
> So the answer is no I would not go.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's clear what you really "feel." It's the yellow stripe down your back.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Why don't you prove your bravery and get your ass to Afghanistan?
> 
> I'm sure the government would love to see an idiot like you step on an IED.
Click to expand...



Did Farmer Brown throw some feed into your coop this morning?


----------



## Spiderman

Unkotare said:


> Spiderman said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> It's clear what you really "feel." It's the yellow stripe down your back.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Why don't you prove your bravery and get your ass to Afghanistan?
> 
> I'm sure the government would love to see an idiot like you step on an IED.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Did Farmer Brown throw some feed into your coop this morning?
Click to expand...


Ironic statement coming from a fucking sheep like you


----------



## Unkotare

Spiderman said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Spiderman said:
> 
> 
> 
> Why don't you prove your bravery and get your ass to Afghanistan?
> 
> I'm sure the government would love to see an idiot like you step on an IED.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Did Farmer Brown throw some feed into your coop this morning?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Ironic statement coming from a fucking sheep like you
Click to expand...




Since we've established that you're not really an American, where will you be moving to?


----------



## Spiderman

Unkotare said:


> Spiderman said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> Did Farmer Brown throw some feed into your coop this morning?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ironic statement coming from a fucking sheep like you
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Since we've established that you're not really an American, where will you be moving to?
Click to expand...


Buzz along little drone.

Mindless do as your told people like you are necessary but inconsequential.


----------



## Unkotare

Spiderman said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Spiderman said:
> 
> 
> 
> Ironic statement coming from a fucking sheep like you
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Since we've established that you're not really an American, where will you be moving to?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Buzz along little drone.
> 
> Mindless do as your told people like you are necessary but inconsequential.
Click to expand...



You didn't answer my question. Where will you be moving to? Will you run away to Canada? Mexico maybe?


----------



## Spiderman

Unkotare said:


> Spiderman said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> Since we've established that you're not really an American, where will you be moving to?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Buzz along little drone.
> 
> Mindless do as your told people like you are necessary but inconsequential.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> You didn't answer my question. Where will you be moving to? Will you run away to Canada? Mexico maybe?
Click to expand...


Not going anywhere little drone.

Run along and get your orders for the day lord knows you can't figure out what to do unless you're told.


----------



## Unkotare

Spiderman said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Spiderman said:
> 
> 
> 
> Buzz along little drone.
> 
> Mindless do as your told people like you are necessary but inconsequential.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You didn't answer my question. Where will you be moving to? Will you run away to Canada? Mexico maybe?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Not going anywhere little drone...
Click to expand...




Just hide in mommy's basement until the war's over? Sorry precious, but if there's a draft some people might come and force you to be a man if you don't flee the country. Better prepare your escape route now just in case.


----------



## Spiderman

Unkotare said:


> Spiderman said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> You didn't answer my question. Where will you be moving to? Will you run away to Canada? Mexico maybe?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Not going anywhere little drone...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Just hide in mommy's basement until the war's over? Sorry precious, but if there's a draft some people might come and force you to be a man if you don't flee the country. Better prepare your escape route now just in case.
Click to expand...


What war?

We haven't fought a legitimate war  since WWII.

All the rest have been undeclared presidential actions to imagined threats.

You might be stupid enough to allow yourself to be a pawn in a game of political brinksmanship and you're deluded enough to think that allowing yourself to be used as such is bravery.

Yeah you obediently swallowed the patriotism line of bullshit to be a good little sheep.

And I thought you weren't supposed to mention family if I remember correctly you got your panties in a twist when I told you to get a cookie from your mama.

http://www.usmessageboard.com/current-events/324178-the-death-of-thanksgiving-38.html#post8162879

You're not being a a good little sheep and following the rules.


----------



## Unkotare

Spiderman said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Spiderman said:
> 
> 
> 
> Not going anywhere little drone...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Just hide in mommy's basement until the war's over? Sorry precious, but if there's a draft some people might come and force you to be a man if you don't flee the country. Better prepare your escape route now just in case.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> What war?
Click to expand...



It doesn't matter "what war." If there is a draft and you are called up, you serve or flee the country like a yellow-bellied traitor who never deserved to live here anyway.


----------



## Spiderman

Unkotare said:


> Spiderman said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> Just hide in mommy's basement until the war's over? Sorry precious, but if there's a draft some people might come and force you to be a man if you don't flee the country. Better prepare your escape route now just in case.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What war?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> It doesn't matter "what war." If there is a draft and you are called up, you serve or flee the country like a yellow-bellied traitor who never deserved to live here anyway.
Click to expand...


Since the thread is about the "war" in the middle east I would say that it matters what war.

Buzz along now little drone.  You are too drunk with patriotism to even follow the topic


----------



## Unkotare

Spiderman said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Spiderman said:
> 
> 
> 
> What war?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It doesn't matter "what war." If there is a draft and you are called up, you serve or flee the country like a yellow-bellied traitor who never deserved to live here anyway.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Since the thread is about the "war" in the middle east I would say that it matters what war.
Click to expand...




If the question is "do you want to go?" it might, but if there is a draft (which I don't see happening any time soon) it does NOT. 

YOU are trying to cloak your un-American cowardice as righteousness, and it's disgusting.


----------



## Spiderman

Unkotare said:


> Spiderman said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> It doesn't matter "what war." If there is a draft and you are called up, you serve or flee the country like a yellow-bellied traitor who never deserved to live here anyway.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Since the thread is about the "war" in the middle east I would say that it matters what war.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If the question is "do you want to go?" it might, but if there is a draft (which I don't see happening any time soon) it does NOT.
> 
> YOU are trying to cloak your un-American cowardice as righteousness, and it's disgusting.
Click to expand...


If it's American to be an unquestioning blindly obedient servant to the government then feel free to call me unAmerican.

Where would we be if the people who founded this country thought like you and were good obedient little servants of the crown?

But governments need little bees like you who fall for the lie of patriotism....for cannon fodder.


----------



## Unkotare

Spiderman said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Spiderman said:
> 
> 
> 
> Since the thread is about the "war" in the middle east I would say that it matters what war.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If the question is "do you want to go?" it might, but if there is a draft (which I don't see happening any time soon) it does NOT.
> 
> YOU are trying to cloak your un-American cowardice as righteousness, and it's disgusting.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> If it's American to be an unquestioning blindly obedient servant to the government then feel free to call me unAmerican.
Click to expand...


Your feeble justifications and posturing about 'righteous resistance' do NOT at all hid the yellow streak down your back or the gaping whole in your character.


----------



## Spiderman

Unkotare said:


> Spiderman said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> If the question is "do you want to go?" it might, but if there is a draft (which I don't see happening any time soon) it does NOT.
> 
> YOU are trying to cloak your un-American cowardice as righteousness, and it's disgusting.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If it's American to be an unquestioning blindly obedient servant to the government then feel free to call me unAmerican.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Your feeble justifications and posturing about 'righteous resistance' do NOT at all hid the yellow streak down your back or the gaping whole in your character.
Click to expand...


And the fact that "because I said so" is reason enough for you to follow orders is proof of your lack of character.

I have no fear of a fight I won't fight or kill just because some moron in a suit tells me to.  The fact that you will and then call it bravery is quite pathetic.

Blind little drones like you don't need a reason to follow it's in your nature not to think.


----------



## NLT

History said:


> So if the country had a draft* today* to fight in the Middle East, would you go?



I would volunteer


----------



## NLT

theDoctorisIn said:


> Even if I was young enough, I'd qualify as a CO, if there was a draft.



How would you qualify as a Commanding Officer?

Never mind, you are against violence? I hope you never get robbed.


----------



## Unkotare

Spiderman said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Spiderman said:
> 
> 
> 
> If it's American to be an unquestioning blindly obedient servant to the government then feel free to call me unAmerican.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Your feeble justifications and posturing about 'righteous resistance' do NOT at all hid the yellow streak down your back or the gaping whole in your character.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> And the fact that "because I said so" is reason enough for you to follow orders is proof of your lack of character.
> 
> I have no fear of a fight ...
Click to expand...




Bullshit. Bull Shit. You stink of it.


----------



## Spiderman

Unkotare said:


> Spiderman said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> Your feeble justifications and posturing about 'righteous resistance' do NOT at all hid the yellow streak down your back or the gaping whole in your character.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And the fact that "because I said so" is reason enough for you to follow orders is proof of your lack of character.
> 
> I have no fear of a fight ...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Bullshit. Bull Shit. You stink of it.
Click to expand...


Says the internet tough guy.


----------



## Unkotare

Spiderman said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Spiderman said:
> 
> 
> 
> And the fact that "because I said so" is reason enough for you to follow orders is proof of your lack of character.
> 
> I have no fear of a fight ...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Bullshit. Bull Shit. You stink of it.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Says the internet tough guy.
Click to expand...




How does _your_ being a gutless squatter who doesn't deserve to live in the US make _me_ a "tough guy"? I never made any such claim. Looking for an out, coward? Seems to be your thing.


----------



## Desperado

You know even though we do not have an active draft, You still must register for it.  All male U.S. citizens regardless of where they live, and male immigrant aliens residing in the U.S., are required to be registered with Selective Service if they are at least 18 years old but are not yet 26 years old.  Hope you all obeyed the law.

https://www.sss.gov/must.htm


----------



## Drake_Roberts

Desperado said:


> You know even though we do not have an active draft, You still must register for it.  All male U.S. citizens regardless of where they live, and male immigrant aliens residing in the U.S., are required to be registered with Selective Service if they are at least 18 years old but are not yet 26 years old.  Hope you all obeyed the law.
> 
> https://www.sss.gov/must.htm



Yeah, but if we did need a draft, I might be on the side against the US. Like if there is a revolt.


----------



## Spiderman

Unkotare said:


> Spiderman said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> Bullshit. Bull Shit. You stink of it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Says the internet tough guy.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How does _your_ being a gutless squatter who doesn't deserve to live in the US make _me_ a "tough guy"? I never made any such claim. Looking for an out, coward? Seems to be your thing.
Click to expand...


You really are a pathetic little sheep. Brainwashed by patriotism you couldn't tell a just fight from and unjust fight. So ready to follow orders for the simple reason of because I said so and you call others names. So gung ho to go to war but too gutless to volunteer.

Government says kill and you kill because government is always right. Government says step on land mine and you will because government is always right and you're too fucking stupid to think for yourself.

Run along now and get your marching orders for the day like a good little drone.


----------



## Unkotare

Spiderman said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Spiderman said:
> 
> 
> 
> Says the internet tough guy.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How does _your_ being a gutless squatter who doesn't deserve to live in the US make _me_ a "tough guy"? I never made any such claim. Looking for an out, coward? Seems to be your thing.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You really are a pathetic little sheep. Brainwashed by patriotism you couldn't tell a just fight from and unjust fight.
Click to expand...


Got your passport? Got your bags packed? Ready to flee at a moment's notice, squatter?


----------



## Spiderman

Unkotare said:


> Spiderman said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> How does _your_ being a gutless squatter who doesn't deserve to live in the US make _me_ a "tough guy"? I never made any such claim. Looking for an out, coward? Seems to be your thing.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You really are a pathetic little sheep. Brainwashed by patriotism you couldn't tell a just fight from and unjust fight.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Got your passport? Got your bags packed? Ready to flee at a moment's notice, squatter?
Click to expand...


Like I said, Cannon Fodder, I'm not going anywhere.


----------



## Unkotare

Spiderman said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Spiderman said:
> 
> 
> 
> You really are a pathetic little sheep. Brainwashed by patriotism you couldn't tell a just fight from and unjust fight.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Got your passport? Got your bags packed? Ready to flee at a moment's notice, squatter?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Like I said, Cannon Fodder, I'm not going anywhere.
Click to expand...



Then if drafted you would serve, like it or not, coward.


----------



## Spiderman

Unkotare said:


> Spiderman said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> Got your passport? Got your bags packed? Ready to flee at a moment's notice, squatter?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Like I said, Cannon Fodder, I'm not going anywhere.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Then if drafted you would serve, like it or not, coward.
Click to expand...


No I would not serve.  You see a politician saying "Because I said so" doesn't work on me because I am not a brainwashed drone.


----------



## Spiderman

I wonder, Cannon Fodder, if you really know how the draft works.

When one is drafted they must report for a physical then are assigned a rating like a side of beef.  1A to 4F.

If said side of beef is deemed fit for service they are then brought to an induction center where you are tricked into volunteering and swearing an oath.

The government cannot force you to volunteer or swear an oath. And according to the 13th amendment the government cannot force a citizen into involuntary servitude except as punishment for a crime.

Sure if you refuse to swear an oath or to volunteer you may be charged with a crime but if that crime is merely refusing to accept involuntary servitude then it is a baseless charge.

So if the government cannot force me to volunteer to swear an oath and cannot force me to follow the orders of the military then they cannot force me to serve.


----------



## Unkotare

Spiderman said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Spiderman said:
> 
> 
> 
> Like I said, Cannon Fodder, I'm not going anywhere.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Then if drafted you would serve, like it or not, coward.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No I would not serve.
Click to expand...



You would serve in the military or serve the duration of the war + in prison. I'm sure they'd be real gentle with a coward like you.


----------



## Spiderman

Unkotare said:


> Spiderman said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> Then if drafted you would serve, like it or not, coward.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No I would not serve.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> You would serve in the military or serve the duration of the war + in prison. I'm sure they'd be real gentle with a coward like you.
Click to expand...


As a civilian I am under no obligation to follow orders given by the military. I cannot be forced to swear an oath.  I cannot be forced to kill for a politician.

 I have no problem with a just fight but in my lifetime the government has not engaged in a just war. In fact had I been alive during WWII I most likely would have volunteered. But every other war since then has been an immoral abuse of power by the government.

As I said you don't seem to understand how the draft works because you can't think for yourself and must be told what to do... the perfect little piece of Cannon Fodder.

And why haven't you volunteered to serve in the Middle East? After all you're so brave and just itchin' to fight and die for your government whether that fight be just or not.

Why is that, internet tough guy?


----------



## 9thIDdoc

Spiderman said:


> I wonder, Cannon Fodder, if you really know how the draft works.
> 
> When one is drafted they must report for a physical then are assigned a rating like a side of beef.  1A to 4F.
> 
> If said side of beef is deemed fit for service they are then brought to an induction center where you are tricked into volunteering and swearing an oath.
> 
> The government cannot force you to volunteer or swear an oath. And according to the 13th amendment the government cannot force a citizen into involuntary servitude except as punishment for a crime.
> 
> Sure if you refuse to swear an oath or to volunteer you may be charged with a crime but if that crime is merely refusing to accept involuntary servitude then it is a baseless charge.
> 
> So if the government cannot force me to volunteer to swear an oath and cannot force me to follow the orders of the military then they cannot force me to serve.


_
"Brainwashed by patriotism you couldn't tell a just fight from and unjust fight"_

What an arrogant lil shit with delusions of competence! You yourself are clueless; not that your opinion   has any impact on the real world other than how it affects your vote and-since you don't vote-none at all. 

"Greetings
You are hereby ordered for induction into the armed forces of the United States. You will report..."

Neither trickery nor oath are required. As of the listed time and date you are the property of the military. If you refuse orders you go to the brig. Ask Casious Clay.


----------



## LibertyLemming

Fuck no. Why would I risk my life and try to kill other people for corporate interests. If someone was on my soil and attacking me and my family I would defend us but wars of aggression and profit are immoral as fuck.


----------



## Unkotare

Spiderman said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Spiderman said:
> 
> 
> 
> No I would not serve.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You would serve in the military or serve the duration of the war + in prison. I'm sure they'd be real gentle with a coward like you.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> As a civilian I am under no obligation to follow orders given by the military.
Click to expand...



If you were drafted, you'd find out quickly enough what your obligations are under the law, coward.


----------



## Spiderman

9thIDdoc said:


> Spiderman said:
> 
> 
> 
> I wonder, Cannon Fodder, if you really know how the draft works.
> 
> When one is drafted they must report for a physical then are assigned a rating like a side of beef.  1A to 4F.
> 
> If said side of beef is deemed fit for service they are then brought to an induction center where you are tricked into volunteering and swearing an oath.
> 
> The government cannot force you to volunteer or swear an oath. And according to the 13th amendment the government cannot force a citizen into involuntary servitude except as punishment for a crime.
> 
> Sure if you refuse to swear an oath or to volunteer you may be charged with a crime but if that crime is merely refusing to accept involuntary servitude then it is a baseless charge.
> 
> So if the government cannot force me to volunteer to swear an oath and cannot force me to follow the orders of the military then they cannot force me to serve.
> 
> 
> 
> _
> "Brainwashed by patriotism you couldn't tell a just fight from and unjust fight"_
> 
> What an arrogant lil shit with delusions of competence! You yourself are clueless; not that your opinion   has any impact on the real world other than how it affects your vote and-since you don't vote-none at all.
> 
> "Greetings
> You are hereby ordered for induction into the armed forces of the United States. You will report..."
> 
> Neither trickery nor oath are required. As of the listed time and date you are the property of the military. If you refuse orders you go to the brig. Ask Casious Clay.
Click to expand...


So I go to the brig.

I'd report to the induction center but I would not comply with any order.

The entire procedure is designed to get you to volunteer to join.  The old "Take on step forward" trick is a legal induction ceremony but one must voluntarily take that step because the government has to be able to prove you weren't coerced.

What would the charge be if I refused to take one step forward or if I refused to swear the oath?

I will not be brainwashed into giving up my principles for a politician.  I will not swear an oath and I will not kill because some corrupt politician tells me to.

Patriotism is a lie.  A flag is a scrap of cloth used to shrink wrap peoples' brains.


----------



## Spiderman

Unkotare said:


> Spiderman said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> You would serve in the military or serve the duration of the war + in prison. I'm sure they'd be real gentle with a coward like you.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As a civilian I am under no obligation to follow orders given by the military.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> If you were drafted, you'd find out quickly enough what your obligations are under the law, coward.
Click to expand...


I won't give up my principles as easily as you.

I have no obligation to fight for a politician.

But tell me tough guy if you're so brave why aren't you out there fighting for the government?


----------



## Unkotare

Spiderman said:


> 9thIDdoc said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Spiderman said:
> 
> 
> 
> I wonder, Cannon Fodder, if you really know how the draft works.
> 
> When one is drafted they must report for a physical then are assigned a rating like a side of beef.  1A to 4F.
> 
> If said side of beef is deemed fit for service they are then brought to an induction center where you are tricked into volunteering and swearing an oath.
> 
> The government cannot force you to volunteer or swear an oath. And according to the 13th amendment the government cannot force a citizen into involuntary servitude except as punishment for a crime.
> 
> Sure if you refuse to swear an oath or to volunteer you may be charged with a crime but if that crime is merely refusing to accept involuntary servitude then it is a baseless charge.
> 
> So if the government cannot force me to volunteer to swear an oath and cannot force me to follow the orders of the military then they cannot force me to serve.
> 
> 
> 
> _
> "Brainwashed by patriotism you couldn't tell a just fight from and unjust fight"_
> 
> What an arrogant lil shit with delusions of competence! You yourself are clueless; not that your opinion   has any impact on the real world other than how it affects your vote and-since you don't vote-none at all.
> 
> "Greetings
> You are hereby ordered for induction into the armed forces of the United States. You will report..."
> 
> Neither trickery nor oath are required. As of the listed time and date you are the property of the military. If you refuse orders you go to the brig. Ask Casious Clay.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> So I go to the brig.
> 
> I'd report to the induction center but I would not comply with any order.
Click to expand...



And you'd spend the duration of the war and hopefully at least ten years more being passed around as the cowardly bitch. Maybe that's what you really want anyway.


----------



## LibertyLemming

Unkotare said:


> Spiderman said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 9thIDdoc said:
> 
> 
> 
> _
> "Brainwashed by patriotism you couldn't tell a just fight from and unjust fight"_
> 
> What an arrogant lil shit with delusions of competence! You yourself are clueless; not that your opinion   has any impact on the real world other than how it affects your vote and-since you don't vote-none at all.
> 
> "Greetings
> You are hereby ordered for induction into the armed forces of the United States. You will report..."
> 
> Neither trickery nor oath are required. As of the listed time and date you are the property of the military. If you refuse orders you go to the brig. Ask Casious Clay.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So I go to the brig.
> 
> I'd report to the induction center but I would not comply with any order.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> And you'd spend the duration of the war and hopefully at least ten years more being passed around as the cowardly bitch. Maybe that's what you really want anyway.
Click to expand...


Unk has a real hard dick for being ruled


----------



## Unkotare

Spiderman said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Spiderman said:
> 
> 
> 
> As a civilian I am under no obligation to follow orders given by the military.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If you were drafted, you'd find out quickly enough what your obligations are under the law, coward.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I won't give up my principles as easily as you.
Click to expand...



Cowardice is not a "principle," bitch.


----------



## Spiderman

Unkotare said:


> Spiderman said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 9thIDdoc said:
> 
> 
> 
> _
> "Brainwashed by patriotism you couldn't tell a just fight from and unjust fight"_
> 
> What an arrogant lil shit with delusions of competence! You yourself are clueless; not that your opinion   has any impact on the real world other than how it affects your vote and-since you don't vote-none at all.
> 
> "Greetings
> You are hereby ordered for induction into the armed forces of the United States. You will report..."
> 
> Neither trickery nor oath are required. As of the listed time and date you are the property of the military. If you refuse orders you go to the brig. Ask Casious Clay.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So I go to the brig.
> 
> I'd report to the induction center but I would not comply with any order.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> And you'd spend the duration of the war and hopefully at least ten years more being passed around as the cowardly bitch. Maybe that's what you really want anyway.
Click to expand...


Better to fight a just battle than volunteer to be the pawn of a corrupt politician.

So tough man why aren't you fighting in the Middle East?


----------



## LibertyLemming

Unkotare said:


> Spiderman said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> If you were drafted, you'd find out quickly enough what your obligations are under the law, coward.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I won't give up my principles as easily as you.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Cowardice is not a "principle," bitch.
Click to expand...


But killing people is a principle lulz


----------



## Spiderman

Unkotare said:


> Spiderman said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> If you were drafted, you'd find out quickly enough what your obligations are under the law, coward.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I won't give up my principles as easily as you.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Cowardice is not a "principle," bitch.
Click to expand...


Answer the question:

Why aren't you fighting in Afghanistan right now?  It must be a just war because your masters say it is and yet you haven't signed up.


----------



## Unkotare

Spiderman said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Spiderman said:
> 
> 
> 
> So I go to the brig.
> 
> I'd report to the induction center but I would not comply with any order.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And you'd spend the duration of the war and hopefully at least ten years more being passed around as the cowardly bitch. Maybe that's what you really want anyway.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Better to fight a just battle than volunteer to be the pawn of a corrupt politician.
Click to expand...




Keep trying to convince yourself that your rank cowardice is something 'noble,' bitch.


----------



## Spiderman

LibertyLemming said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Spiderman said:
> 
> 
> 
> I won't give up my principles as easily as you.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cowardice is not a "principle," bitch.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> But killing people is a principle lulz
Click to expand...


Internet tough guy likes to call people cowards but he's not volunteering to fight now is he?


----------



## Spiderman

Unkotare said:


> Spiderman said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> And you'd spend the duration of the war and hopefully at least ten years more being passed around as the cowardly bitch. Maybe that's what you really want anyway.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Better to fight a just battle than volunteer to be the pawn of a corrupt politician.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Keep trying to convince yourself that your rank cowardice is something 'noble,' bitch.
Click to expand...


Why do you keep dodging my simple question?

Why is it that you haven't volunteered to fight that all important moral war in the Middle East?


----------



## 9thIDdoc

_"What would the charge be if I refused to take one step forward or if I refused to swear the oath?"_

Failure to follow orders among others.


----------



## LibertyLemming

I bet he wants more taxes but doesn't send extra money voluntarily to the government as well


----------



## Spiderman

9thIDdoc said:


> _"What would the charge be if I refused to take one step forward or if I refused to swear the oath?"_
> 
> Failure to follow orders among others.



BFD.

One cannot be ordered to take an oath.


----------



## O.R.I.O.N

Absolutely not.


----------



## 9thIDdoc

Spiderman said:


> 9thIDdoc said:
> 
> 
> 
> _"What would the charge be if I refused to take one step forward or if I refused to swear the oath?"_
> 
> Failure to follow orders among others.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> BFD.
> 
> One cannot be ordered to take an oath.
Click to expand...


What part of "oath not required' do you not understand?


----------



## Unkotare

Spiderman said:


> Why aren't you fighting in Afghanistan right now?





We have long since established that there is no draft on right now. Remember, idiot?

Given my age, I don't think I'd be the military's first choice to be trained and deployed, but if drafted I would of course go. I'm an American, and I understand that all the rights and privileges I have enjoyed all my life are not free. I have been able to make choices in my life thanks entirely to the sacrifices of American men and women better than I, and I have have a moral and principled (real principle, coward) obligation to at least be aware of this and appropriately grateful. Unlike *you*, a coward squatting in a country he doesn't deserve.


----------



## LibertyLemming

Unkotare said:


> Spiderman said:
> 
> 
> 
> Why aren't you fighting in Afghanistan right now?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We have long since established that there is no draft on right now. Remember, idiot?
> 
> Given my age, I don't think I'd be the military's first choice to be trained and deployed, but if drafted I would of course go. I'm an American, and I understand that all the rights and privileges I have enjoyed all my life are not free. I have been able to make choices in my life thanks entirely to the sacrifices of American men and women better than I, and I have have a moral and principled (real principle, coward) obligation to at least be aware of this and appropriately grateful. Unlike *you*, a coward squatting in a country he doesn't deserve.
Click to expand...


Nobody deserves the injustices of being ruled because they were born


----------



## Unkotare

LibertyLemming said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Spiderman said:
> 
> 
> 
> Why aren't you fighting in Afghanistan right now?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We have long since established that there is no draft on right now. Remember, idiot?
> 
> Given my age, I don't think I'd be the military's first choice to be trained and deployed, but if drafted I would of course go. I'm an American, and I understand that all the rights and privileges I have enjoyed all my life are not free. I have been able to make choices in my life thanks entirely to the sacrifices of American men and women better than I, and I have have a moral and principled (real principle, coward) obligation to at least be aware of this and appropriately grateful. Unlike *you*, a coward squatting in a country he doesn't deserve.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Nobody deserves the injustices of being ruled because they were born
Click to expand...



_You_ are suffering with the "injustice" of being born a fucking idiot.


----------



## Spiderman

Unkotare said:


> Spiderman said:
> 
> 
> 
> Why aren't you fighting in Afghanistan right now?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We have long since established that there is no draft on right now. Remember, idiot?
> 
> Given my age, I don't think I'd be the military's first choice to be trained and deployed, but if drafted I would of course go. I'm an American, and I understand that all the rights and privileges I have enjoyed all my life are not free. I have been able to make choices in my life thanks entirely to the sacrifices of American men and women better than I, and I have have a moral and principled (real principle, coward) obligation to at least be aware of this and appropriately grateful. Unlike *you*, a coward squatting in a country he doesn't deserve.
Click to expand...


Doesn't matter if there's a draft.

You should be out there fighting for your government.

You believe we all have an obligation to fight any and all wars the government deems just yet you refuse to volunteer.

The last true threat to this country was WWII.  None of the wars since then were fought for the protection of the country or its people.

The fact that you can't see that is proof that the flag has strangled your brain.

And I have not once denigrated anyone who has volunteered to serve.  But you haven't volunteered have you tough guy?

And no I feel no obligation to fight for a government or country simply because the accident of my birth happened within its borders. I pay my taxes to the government and its corrupt puppeteers that is all the rent I need pay to reside here.


----------



## Unkotare

Spiderman said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Spiderman said:
> 
> 
> 
> Why aren't you fighting in Afghanistan right now?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We have long since established that there is no draft on right now. Remember, idiot?
> 
> Given my age, I don't think I'd be the military's first choice to be trained and deployed, but if drafted I would of course go. I'm an American, and I understand that all the rights and privileges I have enjoyed all my life are not free. I have been able to make choices in my life thanks entirely to the sacrifices of American men and women better than I, and I have have a moral and principled (real principle, coward) obligation to at least be aware of this and appropriately grateful. Unlike *you*, a coward squatting in a country he doesn't deserve.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Doesn't matter if there's a draft.
Click to expand...



That's the topic of this thread, you fucking moron.


----------



## LibertyLemming

Unkotare said:


> LibertyLemming said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> We have long since established that there is no draft on right now. Remember, idiot?
> 
> Given my age, I don't think I'd be the military's first choice to be trained and deployed, but if drafted I would of course go. I'm an American, and I understand that all the rights and privileges I have enjoyed all my life are not free. I have been able to make choices in my life thanks entirely to the sacrifices of American men and women better than I, and I have have a moral and principled (real principle, coward) obligation to at least be aware of this and appropriately grateful. Unlike *you*, a coward squatting in a country he doesn't deserve.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Nobody deserves the injustices of being ruled because they were born
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> _You_ are suffering with the "injustice" of being born a fucking idiot.
Click to expand...


Shouldn't you be under a bridge somewhere?


----------



## Unkotare

I told you to go work on your act, kid. This one is a bore.


----------



## Spiderman

Unkotare said:


> Spiderman said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> We have long since established that there is no draft on right now. Remember, idiot?
> 
> Given my age, I don't think I'd be the military's first choice to be trained and deployed, but if drafted I would of course go. I'm an American, and I understand that all the rights and privileges I have enjoyed all my life are not free. I have been able to make choices in my life thanks entirely to the sacrifices of American men and women better than I, and I have have a moral and principled (real principle, coward) obligation to at least be aware of this and appropriately grateful. Unlike *you*, a coward squatting in a country he doesn't deserve.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Doesn't matter if there's a draft.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> That's the topic of this thread, you fucking moron.
Click to expand...


Thick asshole.

If it's brave to fight if forced to fight  and you think you are brave because you would submit to being forced to fight as a government pawn then why haven't you volunteered to fight?

Oh  yeah I remember you have to be told what to do before you actually do it.


----------



## Unkotare

Spiderman said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Spiderman said:
> 
> 
> 
> Doesn't matter if there's a draft.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That's the topic of this thread, you fucking moron.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Thick asshole.
Click to expand...



"Thick" is forgetting the topic of the thread, asshole.


----------



## Unkotare

Spiderman said:


> If it's brave to fight if forced to fight





It's not a matter being "brave," you idiot. It is a citizen's responsibility and obligation. Seems you want to drift through your pointless life assuming all the freedom you enjoy is free, but it isn't. If called upon I wouldn't have to be "forced," asshole, I'd just go do my duty when called. You, on the other hand, would rather be a little bitch in prison than a man who does what he has to do even when he might prefer not to. Your cowardice and arrested development are disgusting. You do not deserve the citizenship you seem to value so little. Hopefully you'll never be tested on your 'would rather go to prison' claim, but my guess is you'd make a run for the border if it ever came to that.


----------



## Spiderman

Unkotare said:


> Spiderman said:
> 
> 
> 
> If it's brave to fight if forced to fight
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's not a matter being "brave," you idiot. It is a citizen's responsibility and obligation. Seems you want to drift through your pointless life assuming all the freedom you enjoy is free, but it isn't. If called upon I wouldn't have to be "forced," asshole, I'd just go do my duty when called. You, on the other hand, would rather be a little bitch in prison than a man who does what he has to do even when he might prefer not to. Your cowardice and arrested development are disgusting. You do not deserve the citizenship you seem to value so little. Hopefully you'll never be tested on your 'would rather go to prison' claim, but my guess is you'd make a run for the border if it ever came to that.
Click to expand...


You're the one throwing the word coward around little drone.

If I'm a coward because I won't fight because some politician tells me to then you must think you are not a coward because you will submit to being a pawn in a game pf political brinksmanship.

I do not have a duty to fight for this country.  I certainly do not have a duty to die in place of some politician's kid.

You speak of duty yet you're afraid to volunteer to fight.  Just another hypocrite tough on the internet ass wipe.


----------



## Unkotare

Spiderman said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Spiderman said:
> 
> 
> 
> If it's brave to fight if forced to fight
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's not a matter being "brave," you idiot. It is a citizen's responsibility and obligation. Seems you want to drift through your pointless life assuming all the freedom you enjoy is free, but it isn't. If called upon I wouldn't have to be "forced," asshole, I'd just go do my duty when called. You, on the other hand, would rather be a little bitch in prison than a man who does what he has to do even when he might prefer not to. Your cowardice and arrested development are disgusting. You do not deserve the citizenship you seem to value so little. Hopefully you'll never be tested on your 'would rather go to prison' claim, but my guess is you'd make a run for the border if it ever came to that.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You're the one throwing the word coward around ...
Click to expand...



I'm not "throwing it around," I'm directing it specifically at YOU, coward.


----------



## LibertyLemming

this guy really thinks people are free lololol


----------



## Unkotare

Spiderman said:


> I do not have a duty to fight for this country.





Yes, you do. If called upon during a time of war, you do. If you were any kind of man - or any kind of AMERICAN - you'd know that.


----------



## LibertyLemming

Unkotare said:


> Spiderman said:
> 
> 
> 
> I do not have a duty to fight for this country.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, you do. If called upon during a time of war, you do. If you were any kind of man - or any kind of AMERICAN - you'd know that.
Click to expand...


yeah man where is your loyalty to the place you were randomly born in that levied thousands in debt on your head while you were still a fetus and will take from your earnings your entire life! shame on you for not being loyal


----------



## JWBooth

The greater obligation is to call bullshit when the emperor has no clothes.
To stand up on one's hind legs and have the courage to say no.


----------



## SFC Ollie

Spiderman said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Spiderman said:
> 
> 
> 
> If it's brave to fight if forced to fight
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's not a matter being "brave," you idiot. It is a citizen's responsibility and obligation. Seems you want to drift through your pointless life assuming all the freedom you enjoy is free, but it isn't. If called upon I wouldn't have to be "forced," asshole, I'd just go do my duty when called. You, on the other hand, would rather be a little bitch in prison than a man who does what he has to do even when he might prefer not to. Your cowardice and arrested development are disgusting. You do not deserve the citizenship you seem to value so little. Hopefully you'll never be tested on your 'would rather go to prison' claim, but my guess is you'd make a run for the border if it ever came to that.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You're the one throwing the word coward around little drone.
> 
> If I'm a coward because I won't fight because some politician tells me to then you must think you are not a coward because you will submit to being a pawn in a game pf political brinksmanship.
> 
> I do not have a duty to fight for this country.  I certainly do not have a duty to die in place of some politician's kid.
> 
> You speak of duty yet you're afraid to volunteer to fight.  Just another hypocrite tough on the internet ass wipe.
Click to expand...


Actually there was a study done a few years back that showed there were a higher percentage of Congressmens kids in Iraq than the average for the common citizens kids.
Wished i could find it.


----------



## SFC Ollie

You know, I don't really give a rats ass if people are not patriotic, which it seems we have several in here.

But do not belittle those who are patriotic, and who truly do support and even love their country. I served 22 years and would do it again. And again and again. Draft or no draft.


----------



## LibertyLemming

Patriotism is a disease. Blind loyalty to the authority that be just because you were randomly born somewhere. Pathetic


----------



## SFC Ollie

You are free to leave.....If you want a choice...You have that choice.... Some people don't.

And if Patriotism is a disease then i wished it were contagious.


----------



## Unkotare

LibertyLemming said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Spiderman said:
> 
> 
> 
> I do not have a duty to fight for this country.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, you do. If called upon during a time of war, you do. If you were any kind of man - or any kind of AMERICAN - you'd know that.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> yeah man where is your loyalty to the place you were randomly born in that levied thousands in debt on your head while you were still a fetus and will take from your earnings your entire life! shame on you for not being loyal
Click to expand...




Then GTFO. It shouldn't matter to the likes of you where you live. Out!


----------



## Unkotare

JWBooth said:


> The greater obligation is to call bullshit when the emperor has no clothes.
> To stand up on one's hind legs and have the courage to say no.





You say that at the ballot box, not out of a sudden 'realization' when your country calls upon you.


----------



## Unkotare

LibertyLemming said:


> Patriotism is a disease.





No, your naive ignorance and lack of character is a disease. I hope for your sake that you never have to take what is almost certainly an uncomfortable cure.


----------



## JWBooth

Unkotare said:


> JWBooth said:
> 
> 
> 
> The greater obligation is to call bullshit when the emperor has no clothes.
> To stand up on one's hind legs and have the courage to say no.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You say that at the ballot box, not out of a sudden 'realization' when your country calls upon you.
Click to expand...

Fuck that, it is fallacious nonsense to claim that the country calls.
Politicians and special interests seek cannon fodder for their drummed up nonsense of the moment.
Lemmings follow them over the cliff.


----------



## LibertyLemming

Unkotare said:


> LibertyLemming said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, you do. If called upon during a time of war, you do. If you were any kind of man - or any kind of AMERICAN - you'd know that.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> yeah man where is your loyalty to the place you were randomly born in that levied thousands in debt on your head while you were still a fetus and will take from your earnings your entire life! shame on you for not being loyal
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Then GTFO. It shouldn't matter to the likes of you where you live. Out!
Click to expand...


lol fuck you why would i leave its u guys that suck


----------



## Unkotare

JWBooth said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JWBooth said:
> 
> 
> 
> The greater obligation is to call bullshit when the emperor has no clothes.
> To stand up on one's hind legs and have the courage to say no.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You say that at the ballot box, not out of a sudden 'realization' when your country calls upon you.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Fuck that, it is fallacious nonsense to claim that the country calls.
Click to expand...



Fuck you, no it's not. It was not "fallacious nonsense" for prior generations and it won't be for future ones if we ever have to reinstate the draft. Just because some individuals lacking spinal integrity suddenly become 'philosophical' when the prospect of putting their ass on the line comes up doesn't mean citizens don't have an obligation to serve when the nation calls.


----------



## JWBooth

Unkotare said:


> JWBooth said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> You say that at the ballot box, not out of a sudden 'realization' when your country calls upon you.
> 
> 
> 
> Fuck that, it is fallacious nonsense to claim that the country calls.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Fuck you, no it's not. It was not "fallacious nonsense" for prior generations and it won't be for future ones if we ever have to reinstate the draft. Just because some individuals lacking spinal integrity suddenly become 'philosophical' when the prospect of putting their ass on the line comes up doesn't mean citizens don't have an obligation to serve when the nation calls.
Click to expand...


No, fuck you.
I've got my honorable discharge hanging on the wall chickenhawk, lack of integrity is insisting others do what you were not willing to do yourself.


----------



## Unkotare

LibertyLemming said:


> why would i leave




Why wouldn't you, punk? You clearly have nothing but disdain for this country, so unless you lack the courage of your convictions the reasonable move would be to go somewhere you find more appealing to your particular brand of self-centered ignorance. 

GTFO


----------



## Unkotare

JWBooth said:


> lack of integrity is insisting others do what you were not willing to do yourself.





It sure would be.


----------



## LibertyLemming

Unkotare said:


> LibertyLemming said:
> 
> 
> 
> why would i leave
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Why wouldn't you, punk? You clearly have nothing but disdain for this country, so unless you lack the courage of your convictions the reasonable move would be to go somewhere you find more appealing to your particular brand of self-centered ignorance.
> 
> GTFO
Click to expand...


I should be proud of a country that imprisons more people than anyone on Earth and does more killing than anyone on Earth?


----------



## Spiderman

Unkotare said:


> Spiderman said:
> 
> 
> 
> I do not have a duty to fight for this country.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, you do. If called upon during a time of war, you do. If you were any kind of man - or any kind of AMERICAN - you'd know that.
Click to expand...


Sorry I didn't drink the patriotism Kool Aid like you drones.


----------



## Spiderman

SFC Ollie said:


> You know, I don't really give a rats ass if people are not patriotic, which it seems we have several in here.
> 
> But do not belittle those who are patriotic, and who truly do support and even love their country. I served 22 years and would do it again. And again and again. Draft or no draft.



I have never belittled or denigrated anyone who volunteered to serve in the military.

Your choice I respect that.

I just don't have the same faith in our government, our politicians or their puppet masters to trust them to tell me if a war is just or not.

And even if you served in the military you have to know that no war action since WWII was because of a legitimate threat to the US.


----------



## Unkotare

LibertyLemming said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> LibertyLemming said:
> 
> 
> 
> why would i leave
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Why wouldn't you, punk? You clearly have nothing but disdain for this country, so unless you lack the courage of your convictions the reasonable move would be to go somewhere you find more appealing to your particular brand of self-centered ignorance.
> 
> GTFO
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I should be proud of a country that imprisons more people than anyone on Earth and does more killing than anyone on Earth?
Click to expand...




So *leave*. You are not needed here. Go be a boil on some other nation's ass, you worthless little loser.


----------



## Unkotare

Spiderman said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Spiderman said:
> 
> 
> 
> I do not have a duty to fight for this country.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, you do. If called upon during a time of war, you do. If you were any kind of man - or any kind of AMERICAN - you'd know that.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Sorry I didn't drink the patriotism Kool Aid like you drones.
Click to expand...



No, you drank a whole swimming pool full of Spineless Coward.


----------



## Spiderman

Unkotare said:


> LibertyLemming said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> Why wouldn't you, punk? You clearly have nothing but disdain for this country, so unless you lack the courage of your convictions the reasonable move would be to go somewhere you find more appealing to your particular brand of self-centered ignorance.
> 
> GTFO
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I should be proud of a country that imprisons more people than anyone on Earth and does more killing than anyone on Earth?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So *leave*. You are not needed here. Go be a boil on some other nation's ass, you worthless little loser.
Click to expand...


Piss off drone.

I pay my rent in the form of taxes for my residence here.

That's the only obligation I have.  So why don't you get off your internet tough guy acre wide ass and volunteer and prove to us how brave you really are.


----------



## Spiderman

Unkotare said:


> Spiderman said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, you do. If called upon during a time of war, you do. If you were any kind of man - or any kind of AMERICAN - you'd know that.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry I didn't drink the patriotism Kool Aid like you drones.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> No, you drank a whole swimming pool full of Spineless Coward.
Click to expand...


Says the pussy who won't volunteer to fight.


----------



## Unkotare

Spiderman said:


> I just don't have the same faith in our government, our politicians or their puppet masters to trust them to tell me if a war is just or not....





Choose people you can trust when you vote then. You don't get to individually make that call if you are drafted.


----------



## Spiderman

Unkotare said:


> Spiderman said:
> 
> 
> 
> I just don't have the same faith in our government, our politicians or their puppet masters to trust them to tell me if a war is just or not....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Choose people you can trust when you vote then. You don't get to individually make that call if you are drafted.
Click to expand...


Yeah I do by refusing to fight for a government that is wrong.

I can't subscribe to the War is peace. Freedom is slavery. Ignorance is strength. bullshit that you swallow.


----------



## LibertyLemming

Spiderman said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> LibertyLemming said:
> 
> 
> 
> I should be proud of a country that imprisons more people than anyone on Earth and does more killing than anyone on Earth?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So *leave*. You are not needed here. Go be a boil on some other nation's ass, you worthless little loser.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Piss off drone.
> 
> I pay my rent in the form of taxes for my residence here.
> 
> That's the only obligation I have.  So why don't you get off your internet tough guy acre wide ass and volunteer and prove to us how brave you really are.
Click to expand...


this dude is a troll ill be bowing out


----------



## Unkotare

Spiderman said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Spiderman said:
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry I didn't drink the patriotism Kool Aid like you drones.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No, you drank a whole swimming pool full of Spineless Coward.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Says the pussy who won't volunteer to fight.
Click to expand...




Your attempts at diversion and avoidance of the topic are not working, coward. Don't kid yourself.

You don't have "principles," you have fear. You also don't have balls, a spine, character, loyalty, integrity, or - if you're really honest with yourself - self-respect. You're a hollow waste of a human being, and absolutely useless and unworthy as a citizen. Somewhere deep down inside that yellow belly you know this to be true.


----------



## Unkotare

LibertyLemming said:


> Spiderman said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> So *leave*. You are not needed here. Go be a boil on some other nation's ass, you worthless little loser.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Piss off drone.
> 
> I pay my rent in the form of taxes for my residence here.
> 
> That's the only obligation I have.  So why don't you get off your internet tough guy acre wide ass and volunteer and prove to us how brave you really are.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> this dude is a troll ill be bowing out
Click to expand...




Yeah, I imagine that's about all you're good for, punk.


----------



## Unkotare

Spiderman said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Spiderman said:
> 
> 
> 
> I just don't have the same faith in our government, our politicians or their puppet masters to trust them to tell me if a war is just or not....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Choose people you can trust when you vote then. You don't get to individually make that call if you are drafted.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yeah I do by refusing to fight for a government that is wrong....
Click to expand...



NO, you do that when you vote. When your country calls upon you, you serve. You do, whether you like it or not. I hope you never have to test your pride of cowardice, I really do. You and the kid can drift along in blissful self-indulgence until and unless circumstances dictate otherwise.


As with the kid, I don't know why you bother to stay in a country you clearly don't respect or value.


----------



## Spiderman

Unkotare said:


> Spiderman said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> No, you drank a whole swimming pool full of Spineless Coward.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Says the pussy who won't volunteer to fight.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Your attempts at diversion and avoidance of the topic are not working, coward. Don't kid yourself.
> 
> You don't have "principles," you have fear. You also don't have balls, a spine, character, loyalty, integrity, or - if you're really honest with yourself - self-respect. You're a hollow waste of a human being, and absolutely useless and unworthy as a citizen. Somewhere deep down inside that yellow belly you know this to be true.
Click to expand...


Loyalty to whom?

Some fat cat bought off politician?

Loyalty to a piece or dirt?  To a brightly colored rag?

I refuse to kill another human being merely because some idiot in DC says I should.  The fact that you are willing to do that is what's telling about your character that is if a mindless follow all orders because I'm told drone has any character.


----------



## Spiderman

Unkotare said:


> Spiderman said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> Choose people you can trust when you vote then. You don't get to individually make that call if you are drafted.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah I do by refusing to fight for a government that is wrong....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> NO, you do that when you vote. When your country calls upon you, you serve. You do, whether you like it or not. I hope you never have to test your pride of cowardice, I really do. You and the kid can drift along in blissful self-indulgence until and unless circumstances dictate otherwise.
> 
> 
> As with the kid, I don't know why you bother to stay in a country you clearly don't respect or value.
Click to expand...


I stay because I have paid to stay.

And that's all I am obliged to do.  I certainly am not obliged to pay in blood.


----------



## Unkotare

Spiderman said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Spiderman said:
> 
> 
> 
> Says the pussy who won't volunteer to fight.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Your attempts at diversion and avoidance of the topic are not working, coward. Don't kid yourself.
> 
> You don't have "principles," you have fear. You also don't have balls, a spine, character, loyalty, integrity, or - if you're really honest with yourself - self-respect. You're a hollow waste of a human being, and absolutely useless and unworthy as a citizen. Somewhere deep down inside that yellow belly you know this to be true.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Loyalty to whom?
Click to expand...



To the country that provides you the freedom to be such a low-life fucking scumbag.


----------



## Unkotare

Spiderman said:


> I refuse to kill another human being merely because some idiot in DC says I should.  ...




Then if there ever is a draft and you are of age, you'll get to be the prison bitch you always dreamed of being.


----------



## Unkotare

Spiderman said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Spiderman said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah I do by refusing to fight for a government that is wrong....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> NO, you do that when you vote. When your country calls upon you, you serve. You do, whether you like it or not. I hope you never have to test your pride of cowardice, I really do. You and the kid can drift along in blissful self-indulgence until and unless circumstances dictate otherwise.
> 
> 
> As with the kid, I don't know why you bother to stay in a country you clearly don't respect or value.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I stay because I have paid to stay.
> 
> And that's all I am obliged to do.  I certainly am not obliged to pay in blood.
Click to expand...



You are not an American, and you are of no use to anyone, anywhere. Congratulations, you're nothing.


----------



## JWBooth

Unkotare said:


> LibertyLemming said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Spiderman said:
> 
> 
> 
> Piss off drone.
> 
> I pay my rent in the form of taxes for my residence here.
> 
> That's the only obligation I have.  So why don't you get off your internet tough guy acre wide ass and volunteer and prove to us how brave you really are.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> this dude is a troll ill be bowing out
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, I imagine that's about all you're good for, punk.
Click to expand...


----------



## Borillar

I'm much too old to be drafted now, but I volunteered for service in my youth and would do so again if my country needed me.


----------



## Pogo

LibertyLemming said:


> Fuck no. Why would I risk my life and try to kill other people for corporate interests. If someone was on my soil and attacking me and my family I would defend us but wars of aggression and profit are immoral as fuck.





History said:


> So if the country had a draft* today* to fight in the Middle East, would you go?



Fuck no.  I'm old enough to know better.  Which is exactly why they draft 18-year-olds.

I don't know where that first quote came from but I agree with it wholeheartedly.
Now if there were a draft (or a voluntary program) for *constructive *purposes, yes, absolutely, in a heartbeat.


----------



## SFC Ollie

Spiderman said:


> SFC Ollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> You know, I don't really give a rats ass if people are not patriotic, which it seems we have several in here.
> 
> But do not belittle those who are patriotic, and who truly do support and even love their country. I served 22 years and would do it again. And again and again. Draft or no draft.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I have never belittled or denigrated anyone who volunteered to serve in the military.
> 
> Your choice I respect that.
> 
> I just don't have the same faith in our government, our politicians or their puppet masters to trust them to tell me if a war is just or not.
> 
> And even if you served in the military you have to know that no war action since WWII was because of a legitimate threat to the US.
Click to expand...


War has to start with a threat to the USA?

Tell that to the students we pulled out of Granada.

And we already know that you are ignorant of the reasons we went into Afghanistan. and Iraq.  And yes we should have gone into both of them for the reasons stated. Though i will give you that we should not have been in either one longer than 6 months.


----------



## SFC Ollie

Spiderman said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Spiderman said:
> 
> 
> 
> I just don't have the same faith in our government, our politicians or their puppet masters to trust them to tell me if a war is just or not....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Choose people you can trust when you vote then. You don't get to individually make that call if you are drafted.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yeah I do by refusing to fight for a government that is wrong.
> 
> I can't subscribe to the War is peace. Freedom is slavery. Ignorance is strength. bullshit that you swallow.
Click to expand...


Who are you to say the government is wrong? I know damned sure i can't make that call. I can say I disagree, but not that they are wrong.


----------



## Desperado

SFC Ollie said:


> Spiderman said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> Choose people you can trust when you vote then. You don't get to individually make that call if you are drafted.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah I do by refusing to fight for a government that is wrong.
> 
> I can't subscribe to the War is peace. Freedom is slavery. Ignorance is strength. bullshit that you swallow.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Who are you to say the government is wrong? I know damned sure i can't make that call. I can say I disagree, but not that they are wrong.
Click to expand...


Maybe that is the problem, Americans used to be able to tell right from wrong.
Why can't you make the call?


----------



## Desperado

SFC Ollie said:


> Spiderman said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SFC Ollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> You know, I don't really give a rats ass if people are not patriotic, which it seems we have several in here.
> 
> But do not belittle those who are patriotic, and who truly do support and even love their country. I served 22 years and would do it again. And again and again. Draft or no draft.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I have never belittled or denigrated anyone who volunteered to serve in the military.
> 
> Your choice I respect that.
> 
> I just don't have the same faith in our government, our politicians or their puppet masters to trust them to tell me if a war is just or not.
> 
> And even if you served in the military you have to know that no war action since WWII was because of a legitimate threat to the US.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> War has to start with a threat to the USA?
> 
> Tell that to the students we pulled out of Granada.
> 
> And we already know that you are ignorant of the reasons we went into Afghanistan. and Iraq.  And yes we should have gone into both of them for the reasons stated. Though i will give you that we should not have been in either one longer than 6 months.
Click to expand...


We may have had a legitimate reason for invading Afghanistan going after OBL.
but there was absolutely no legitimate reason for invading Iraq.  You have to agree that no war  since WWII was because of a legitimate threat to the US, not one!


----------



## SFC Ollie

I've already showed you that a threat to the USA is not always needed to go to war.

And You nor i can tell the government they are wrong because you just did and really, You are probably wrong. At least i and many others would disagree with you.


----------



## Toro

If I was drafted by both the military and the Oakland Raiders, I'd chose the military.


----------



## Pogo

Toro said:


> If I was drafter by both the military and the Oakland Raiders, I'd chose the military.



Better chance of winning?


----------



## Unkotare

Desperado said:


> SFC Ollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Spiderman said:
> 
> 
> 
> I have never belittled or denigrated anyone who volunteered to serve in the military.
> 
> Your choice I respect that.
> 
> I just don't have the same faith in our government, our politicians or their puppet masters to trust them to tell me if a war is just or not.
> 
> And even if you served in the military you have to know that no war action since WWII was because of a legitimate threat to the US.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> War has to start with a threat to the USA?
> 
> Tell that to the students we pulled out of Granada.
> 
> And we already know that you are ignorant of the reasons we went into Afghanistan. and Iraq.  And yes we should have gone into both of them for the reasons stated. Though i will give you that we should not have been in either one longer than 6 months.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> We may have had a legitimate reason for invading Afghanistan going after OBL.
> but there was absolutely no legitimate reason for invading Iraq.  You have to agree that no war  since WWII was because of a legitimate threat to the US, not one!
Click to expand...


See your eye doctor immediately. You are severely myopic.


----------



## Spiderman

Unkotare said:


> Spiderman said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> Your attempts at diversion and avoidance of the topic are not working, coward. Don't kid yourself.
> 
> You don't have "principles," you have fear. You also don't have balls, a spine, character, loyalty, integrity, or - if you're really honest with yourself - self-respect. You're a hollow waste of a human being, and absolutely useless and unworthy as a citizen. Somewhere deep down inside that yellow belly you know this to be true.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Loyalty to whom?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> To the country that provides you the freedom to be such a low-life fucking scumbag.
Click to expand...


Country?

Loyalty to a lifeless hunk of dirt?

Loyalty to a colored bit of cloth?

Sorry I don't think so.

And I have paid for my right to live here.  If the government wants to return all the money I have paid in taxes plus interest I'll be happy to move.


----------



## Spiderman

Unkotare said:


> Spiderman said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> NO, you do that when you vote. When your country calls upon you, you serve. You do, whether you like it or not. I hope you never have to test your pride of cowardice, I really do. You and the kid can drift along in blissful self-indulgence until and unless circumstances dictate otherwise.
> 
> 
> As with the kid, I don't know why you bother to stay in a country you clearly don't respect or value.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I stay because I have paid to stay.
> 
> And that's all I am obliged to do.  I certainly am not obliged to pay in blood.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> You are not an American, and you are of no use to anyone, anywhere. Congratulations, you're nothing.
Click to expand...


American, English, French are are meaningless to me.

I define myself apart from the hunk of dirt I was born on.  That's why you're perfect cannon fodder you can't define yourself apart from a hunk of dirt or a pretty rag.


----------



## Spiderman

SFC Ollie said:


> Spiderman said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SFC Ollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> You know, I don't really give a rats ass if people are not patriotic, which it seems we have several in here.
> 
> But do not belittle those who are patriotic, and who truly do support and even love their country. I served 22 years and would do it again. And again and again. Draft or no draft.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I have never belittled or denigrated anyone who volunteered to serve in the military.
> 
> Your choice I respect that.
> 
> I just don't have the same faith in our government, our politicians or their puppet masters to trust them to tell me if a war is just or not.
> 
> And even if you served in the military you have to know that no war action since WWII was because of a legitimate threat to the US.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> War has to start with a threat to the USA?
Click to expand...


It is the only valid reason to declare war.  But we don't declare war anymore we simply decree and invade.



> Tell that to the students we pulled out of Granada.



If Americans travel abroad they take their safety into their own hands.  I certainly do not expect the US military to invade a country to get me out and neither should any of you.



> And we already know that you are ignorant of the reasons we went into Afghanistan. and Iraq.  And yes we should have gone into both of them for the reasons stated. Though i will give you that we should not have been in either one longer than 6 months.



I read the resolutions and all the bull shit. We were supposed to enforce the UN resolutions put in place in 91.

But since we have been there for 10 years I have to think that either we are inept and haven't been able to do that or we have ulterior motives.


----------



## Desperado

SFC Ollie said:


> I've already showed you that a threat to the USA is not always needed to go to war.
> 
> And You nor i can tell the government they are wrong because you just did and really, You are probably wrong. At least i and many others would disagree with you.



Spoken like a true SFC, just following orders, not allowed to question the orders.
So I guess you believe the US should have been involved in Korea and Vietnam too.


----------



## JWBooth

Desperado said:


> SFC Ollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> I've already showed you that a threat to the USA is not always needed to go to war.
> 
> And You nor i can tell the government they are wrong because you just did and really, You are probably wrong. At least i and many others would disagree with you.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Spoken like a true SFC, just following orders, not allowed to question the orders.
> So I guess you believe the US should have been involved in Korea and Vietnam too.
Click to expand...

Dominican Republic, Bosnia, Serbia, Croatia, Panama, Herzegovina, Philippines...


----------



## SFC Ollie

Desperado said:


> SFC Ollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> I've already showed you that a threat to the USA is not always needed to go to war.
> 
> And You nor i can tell the government they are wrong because you just did and really, You are probably wrong. At least i and many others would disagree with you.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Spoken like a true SFC, just following orders, not allowed to question the orders.
> So I guess you believe the US should have been involved in Korea and Vietnam too.
Click to expand...


I took an oath to follow the orders of those appointed over me. The only outlier on that is that they had to be lawful orders. 

It's a real shame when one cannot allow patriotism in their life. Do me a favor and please don't bother to vote.

And yes I believe we belonged in Korea and Nam. However I do wished the politicians would have kept their noses and the journalists out of Nam. It would have been over by 69.


----------



## GHook93

GHook93 said:


> History said:
> 
> 
> 
> So if the country had a draft* today* to fight in the Middle East, would you go?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes
Click to expand...


I think I should rephrase myself. If it was after we were attacked and we declared war on the entire nation, like we did in WW I and WW II, then I would go willingly. If it's to fight in another countries civil war, like Vietnam and Korea, then no way. It has to be a threat to us. If it's to protect ungrateful muslims then not a chance. See what any of our wars to protect Muslims have gotten us:

(1) Helping the Afghans against the Soviets: This lead to one of the most brutal regimes in the world in the Taliban. Extreme woman, minority, children and gay's human right violation. One of the most anti-American countries in the world. Funny we are the ONLY reason they were able to fight back against the Russians and they still split in our faces when we gave them these million dollar weaponry!
(2) Kosovo: We protected the Muslim invaders and antagonist against the native Serbs. The Russians were on the right side and we were on the wrong side. We did this get us. An anti-American MUSLIM regime, that is a hot bed for Islamic terrorism and led by a mafia style government.
(3) Kuwait: We prevented Sadam from killing genocide against the Kuwaitis. What did we get? Another anti-American Muslim shithole.
(4) Libya: We got rid of Gaddaffi and we an an anti-American Islamist shithole instead.
The list goes on and on. Whenever we fight wars to protect Muslims we leave with an anti-american, Islamist government and population in place. I will never fight to protect muslims.

I would also never fight in a nation-building war. Building a nation is extremely difficult, during it during when there is an active battlefield is near impossible!


----------



## Unkotare

Spiderman said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Spiderman said:
> 
> 
> 
> Loyalty to whom?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> To the country that provides you the freedom to be such a low-life fucking scumbag.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Country?
> 
> Loyalty to a lifeless hunk of dirt?
> 
> Loyalty to a colored bit of cloth?
> 
> Sorry I don't think so.
> 
> And I have paid for my right to live here.  If the government wants to return all the money I have paid in taxes plus interest I'll be happy to move.
Click to expand...



As I said, you are NOT an American. You are nothing.


----------



## Spiderman

Unkotare said:


> Spiderman said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> To the country that provides you the freedom to be such a low-life fucking scumbag.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Country?
> 
> Loyalty to a lifeless hunk of dirt?
> 
> Loyalty to a colored bit of cloth?
> 
> Sorry I don't think so.
> 
> And I have paid for my right to live here.  If the government wants to return all the money I have paid in taxes plus interest I'll be happy to move.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> As I said, you are NOT an American. You are nothing.
Click to expand...


You say that as if it's an insult.  it's not.  I don't have the pathological need to belong like you sheep.


----------



## Unkotare

Spiderman said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Spiderman said:
> 
> 
> 
> Country?
> 
> Loyalty to a lifeless hunk of dirt?
> 
> Loyalty to a colored bit of cloth?
> 
> Sorry I don't think so.
> 
> And I have paid for my right to live here.  If the government wants to return all the money I have paid in taxes plus interest I'll be happy to move.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As I said, you are NOT an American. You are nothing.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You say that as if it's an insult.  it's not.
Click to expand...





When I say you're nothing, I'm not just referring to the fact that you're not a real American ...


----------



## Spiderman

Unkotare said:


> Spiderman said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> As I said, you are NOT an American. You are nothing.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You say that as if it's an insult.  it's not.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> When I say you're nothing, I'm not just referring to the fact that you're not a real American ...
Click to expand...


Like I give a fuck what you think or rather what you are told to think by your master.


----------



## bornright

I joined to go to war in Vietnam so I assume I would go if drafted.  I have never been one to violate a law and I still love my country even though it is led by someone that does not.


----------



## Unkotare

Spiderman said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Spiderman said:
> 
> 
> 
> You say that as if it's an insult.  it's not.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> When I say you're nothing, I'm not just referring to the fact that you're not a real American ...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Like I give a fuck what you think ...
Click to expand...




Yeah, you don't give a fuck about anything. Keep trying to be 'proud' of that, you nihilistic waste of a human life. You're just an empty shell taking up space in my country.


----------



## SFC Ollie

It's obvious that there are certain people on this thread that if the USA were ever to come under attack they would simply  be happy to take the winners side. Of course they would hide under their beds until it was over.........


----------



## Desperado

SFC Ollie said:


> *if the USA were ever to come under attack *..



Again that statement changes everything.  Which is why  (at first) it was acceptable to the US to attack Afghanistan.... However, 12 years in country and trying to get Afghanistan to sign a treaty to allow US troops there till 2024 is totally unacceptable.


----------



## SFC Ollie

Desperado said:


> SFC Ollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> *if the USA were ever to come under attack *..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Again that statement changes everything.  Which is why  (at first) it was acceptable to the US to attack Afghanistan.... However, 12 years in country and trying to get Afghanistan to sign a treaty to allow US troops there till 2024 is totally unacceptable.
Click to expand...




As i earlier stated we had good reasons for going into both Afghanistan and Iraq. But we should have been out of both within about 6 months...


----------



## SFC Ollie

Now think about it, "That changes everything". Does it?

So fair weather Americans are OK with you? When the going gets tough the wannabes hide until the shit is over. 

I don't need any Fair weather Americans. I would be ashamed to even mention half the BS on this thread at my American legion Post. Those veterans would offer several of you a hanky and a one way boat ticket...


----------



## Desperado

SFC Ollie said:


> As i earlier stated we had good reasons for going into both Afghanistan and Iraq. But we should have been out of both within about 6 months...



As I stated earlier, I agree, we had good reasons for going into Afghanistan.....However we had no business starting a pre-emptive war in Iraq, where the "Mission Statement" kept changing.




SFC Ollie said:


> Now think about it, "That changes everything". Does it?
> So fair weather Americans are OK with you? When the going gets tough the wannabes hide until the shit is over.
> I don't need any Fair weather Americans. I would be ashamed to even mention half the BS on this thread at my American legion Post. Those veterans would offer several of you a hanky and a one way boat ticket...



Im just glad to see that there are more people that question the government and just not accept its' word anymore. Our government lost that credibility years ago.
 I would not call them "Fair weather Americans" but rather right thinking Americans and I would rather have them than the "Ours not to reason why, ours but to do and die" wingnuts.


----------



## SFC Ollie

The USA *was* the greatest Country to ever be on this earth.

What a sad sad sentence.


----------



## High_Gravity

History said:


> So if the country had a draft* today* to fight in the Middle East, would you go?



Yes.


----------



## Pogo

Desperado said:


> SFC Ollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> As i earlier stated we had good reasons for going into both Afghanistan and Iraq. But we should have been out of both within about 6 months...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As I stated earlier, I agree, we had good reasons for going into Afghanistan.....However we had no business starting a pre-emptive war in Iraq, where the "Mission Statement" kept changing.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SFC Ollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> Now think about it, "That changes everything". Does it?
> So fair weather Americans are OK with you? When the going gets tough the wannabes hide until the shit is over.
> I don't need any Fair weather Americans. I would be ashamed to even mention half the BS on this thread at my American legion Post. Those veterans would offer several of you a hanky and a one way boat ticket...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Im just glad to see that there are more people that question the government and just not accept its' word anymore. Our government lost that credibility years ago.
> I would not call them "Fair weather Americans" but rather right thinking Americans and I would rather have them than the "Ours not to reason why, ours but to do and die" wingnuts.
Click to expand...


I'm not sure the phrase "if the US were ever to come under attack" is even realistic.  Outside of Pearl Harbor (which was annexed territory anyway), some skirmishes leading up to the War of 1812, and the Revolution itself (which is our starting point), is there even a single instance where that's ever happened on American soil, in American skies or on American waters?

9/11 counts, though that's not traditional war, hence the support for action in Afghanistan to get to the source.  That's legitimate.

On the other hand there are myriad examples of us invading somebody else (Canada, Mexico, Cuba, Iraq, Panama, Libya, Grenada...) or jumping into an existing foreign conflict on foreign soil (Vietnam, Korea, the World Wars, some of which may be justified).  But what's ever happened _here_?  

Now if Canada suddenly gets taken over by Nazis, if Mexico overnight gets a nuke, then we may then begin to approach what is to this point an abstract theory.  But that's not exactly on the horizon.


----------



## Spiderman

Unkotare said:


> Spiderman said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> When I say you're nothing, I'm not just referring to the fact that you're not a real American ...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Like I give a fuck what you think ...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, you don't give a fuck about anything. Keep trying to be 'proud' of that, you nihilistic waste of a human life. You're just an empty shell taking up space in my country.
Click to expand...


Your country?

That's funny. 

I daresay I own more of this country than you.

I don't concern myself with things like pride and patriotism.  What's the sense in being proud of something you had absolutely nothing to do with like where you were born.

I don't care what you think because you can't think for yourself you just do as your told.  I actually care about people I don't give a shit where they are from and I have no illusions of superiority simply because I happened to have been born in a particular place.


----------



## Pogo

SFC Ollie said:


> The USA *was* the greatest Country to ever be on this earth.
> 
> What a sad sad sentence.



I don't find anything to particularly recommend that top-dog assessment.

The US is a cool country.
Canada is a cool country.
Denmark is a cool country.

I don't need to rank them or pick out "X" is better than "Y".  Everybody's got their own character.  And that's a good thing.

This international competitive thing has always mystified me.  Why do we need maxims of superiority?  What's the point of crowing "we're the greatest"?  Seems to me the goal of a country is to nurture and protect its citizens that they may thrive.  If we're doing that, why fixate on what everybody else is doing?


----------



## Pogo

Unkotare said:


> Spiderman said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> When I say you're nothing, I'm not just referring to the fact that you're not a real American ...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Like I give a fuck what you think ...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, you don't give a fuck about anything. Keep trying to be 'proud' of that, you nihilistic waste of a human life. You're just an empty shell taking up space in my country.
Click to expand...


----------



## 9thIDdoc

If you aren't willing to do what needs to be done to pass the rights and freedoms gifted you by our forefathers to our children and grandchildren you're part of the problem and (IMO) have no right to consider this your country. 
It is no more your place to decide what wars should be fought as it is your place to pick the president


----------



## Pogo

9thIDdoc said:


> If you aren't willing to do what needs to be done to pass the rights and freedoms gifted you by our forefathers to our children and grandchildren you're part of the problem and (IMO) have no right to consider this your country.
> It is no more your place to decide what wars should be fought as it is your place to pick the president



I don't know what country you're in but in this country we *DO* pick the President.

In theory anyway.

Curious how some wags who would like to claim "patriotism" simultaneously profess a contempt for the First Amendment it's built on.

(Edit: as in the following post.  Perfect example  )


----------



## Unkotare

Spiderman said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Spiderman said:
> 
> 
> 
> Like I give a fuck what you think ...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, you don't give a fuck about anything. Keep trying to be 'proud' of that, you nihilistic waste of a human life. You're just an empty shell taking up space in my country.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Your country?
Click to expand...



My country. Not yours.


----------



## Unkotare

Spiderman said:


> I don't concern myself with things like pride and patriotism. ..




That's because you're nothing, you're nobody; a worthless, empty shell where there should be a human being.


----------



## Spiderman

9thIDdoc said:


> If you aren't willing to do what needs to be done to pass the rights and freedoms gifted you by our forefathers to our children and grandchildren you're part of the problem and (IMO) have no right to consider this your country.
> It is no more your place to decide what wars should be fought as it is your place to pick the president



The undeclared war in the middle east is doing nothing to protect our freedoms because neither iraq nor afghanistan posed a real threat to us.

And I think the people have the responsibility to disobey the government if the government is engaged in unjust wars. I will not murder innocent people merely because my government tells me to.

Tell me all of all the people we have killed in Iraq and Afghanistan how many of them were actually a threat to American citizens?

They have no Navy to speak of, no air force to speak of no way to mount any meaningful attack on this country.

I'll pose the same questions for any other undeclared war we have waged.

We are talking about war so encompassing as to require a draft no war since WWII has been worthy of a draft because no war since then has been in response to a legitimate threat to America.


----------



## Spiderman

Unkotare said:


> Spiderman said:
> 
> 
> 
> I don't concern myself with things like pride and patriotism. ..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That's because you're nothing, you're nobody; a worthless, empty shell where there should be a human being.
Click to expand...


And yet you feel the need to keep responding to my posts. Do me a favor little drone and put me on ignore.

See you can do that because you were told to.  No thought required just the way you like it.


----------



## Unkotare

Spiderman said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Spiderman said:
> 
> 
> 
> I don't concern myself with things like pride and patriotism. ..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That's because you're nothing, you're nobody; a worthless, empty shell where there should be a human being.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> And yet you feel the need to keep responding to my posts. ...
Click to expand...




YOU need to be reminded of what you aren't. Maybe someday, by some magic, you'll turn in to a real human being.


----------



## saltydog

yes


----------



## Desperado

9thIDdoc said:


> If you aren't willing to do what needs to be done to pass the rights and freedoms gifted you by our forefathers to our children and grandchildren



And what pray tell needs to be done in Iraq and Afghanistan, so that we can pass the rights and freedoms gifted by our forefathers to our children and grandchildren?


----------



## Desperado

saltydog said:


> yes



Good answer.....
Now what was the question?


----------



## LibertyLemming

You guys realize that all the government does is restrict freedom right, not grant it, so technically you are defending our restrictions on freedom gg


----------



## whitehall

If the draft was enacted during a democrat administration you can bet your ass that the mainstream media would do their best to convince young draftees that the Mid East conflict was the greatest use of the Military since Teddy's charge up San Juan Hill. If the draft was enacted during a republican administration the mainstream media would try to convince kids that Canada is a nice place to relocate.


----------



## 9thIDdoc

Pogo said:


> 9thIDdoc said:
> 
> 
> 
> If you aren't willing to do what needs to be done to pass the rights and freedoms gifted you by our forefathers to our children and grandchildren you're part of the problem and (IMO) have no right to consider this your country.
> It is no more your place to decide what wars should be fought as it is your place to pick the president
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I don't know what country you're in but in this country we *DO* pick the President.
> 
> In theory anyway.
> 
> Curious how some wags who would like to claim "patriotism" simultaneously profess a contempt for the First Amendment it's built on.
> 
> (Edit: as in the following post.  Perfect example  )
Click to expand...


My post had nothing to do with the first amendment unless you're talking about my first amendment right to express an opinion. You have contempt for that?


----------



## Dr Grump

Not a chance in hell...


----------



## Dr Grump

9thIDdoc said:


> If you aren't willing to do what needs to be done to pass the rights and freedoms gifted you by our forefathers to our children and grandchildren you're part of the problem and (IMO) have no right to consider this your country.
> It is no more your place to decide what wars should be fought as it is your place to pick the president



what a crock. So which American freedoms are your children and grandchildren getting back by being in Iraq and Afghanistan...Germany and Japan for that matter...


----------



## Pogo

9thIDdoc said:


> Pogo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 9thIDdoc said:
> 
> 
> 
> If you aren't willing to do what needs to be done to pass the rights and freedoms gifted you by our forefathers to our children and grandchildren you're part of the problem and (IMO) have no right to consider this your country.
> It is no more your place to decide what wars should be fought as it is your place to pick the president
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I don't know what country you're in but in this country we *DO* pick the President.
> 
> In theory anyway.
> 
> Curious how some wags who would like to claim "patriotism" simultaneously profess a contempt for the First Amendment it's built on.
> 
> (Edit: as in the following post.  Perfect example  )
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> My post had nothing to do with the first amendment unless you're talking about my first amendment right to express an opinion. You have contempt for that?
Click to expand...




No you mindless dolt, it ain't always all about *you*.  Jesus Christ on a cracker...

Your post has everything to do with dissing the First Amendment.  *You* just deported people who have an opinion different from yours.  And I quote, "you're part of the problem and (IMO) have no right to consider this your country".  And who the fuck are you to deport people?  *My* country protects and includes those variant opinions.  If you want a one-party state where dissent is verboten, go visit Pyonyang.  They have just what you want.


----------



## 9thIDdoc

Pogo said:


> 9thIDdoc said:
> 
> 
> 
> If you aren't willing to do what needs to be done to pass the rights and freedoms gifted you by our forefathers to our children and grandchildren you're part of the problem and (IMO) have no right to consider this your country.
> It is no more your place to decide what wars should be fought as it is your place to pick the president
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I don't know what country you're in but in this country we *DO* pick the President.
> 
> In theory anyway.
> 
> Curious how some wags who would like to claim "patriotism" simultaneously profess a contempt for the First Amendment it's built on.
> 
> (Edit: as in the following post.  Perfect example  )
Click to expand...


_"I don't know what country you're in but in this country we *DO* pick the President."_

That is exactly my point.* We *pick the president; not *you*.
You are either part of "we" or you aren't. 
Example: I thought Obama was a totally unqualified candidate for president. I didn't vote for him either time and tried to talk others out of doing so. That doesn't change the fact that I am part of "we the people" and "we the people" elected his sorry ass and I do not claim otherwise. 
By the same token you have neither the job nor the right to decide this countries foreign policy (thank God) or internal laws.  
I have never agreed conscription was something this nation should do. Nor was I especially enthusiastic about our involvement in Vietnam. But when I received my draft notice I sucked it up and enlisted because it was the right thing to do. And it was.
A person who willingly accepts the good things this country has to offer should be willing serve his country if called to do so. If not he is simply a leech with no redeeming value.


----------



## Dr Grump

9thIDdoc said:


> I have never agreed conscription was something this nation should do. Nor was I especially enthusiastic about our involvement in Vietnam. But when I received my draft notice I sucked it up and enlisted because it was the right thing to do. And it was.
> A person who willingly accepts the good things this country has to offer should be willing serve his country if called to do so. If not he is simply a leech with no redeeming value.



I'm trying to think the last time I read such tosh in a serious thread. So if your president tells you March off and invade Canada because he says so, you'll just join up and off you go? Talk about a lemming...

Nobody - Nobody has the right to tell you to go and (maybe) sacrifice your life for something you don't believe in.

The fact you think Vietnam was 'the right thing to do' says it all really. The last war the US was involved in that was righteous was WWII. Maybe, just maybe Korea. But the rest? Those who burned their draft cards for Vietnam and went to Canada are also heroes in my book...as are those who served.


----------



## 9thIDdoc

Spiderman said:


> 9thIDdoc said:
> 
> 
> 
> If you aren't willing to do what needs to be done to pass the rights and freedoms gifted you by our forefathers to our children and grandchildren you're part of the problem and (IMO) have no right to consider this your country.
> It is no more your place to decide what wars should be fought as it is your place to pick the president
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The undeclared war in the middle east is doing nothing to protect our freedoms because neither iraq nor afghanistan posed a real threat to us.
> 
> And I think the people have the responsibility to disobey the government if the government is engaged in unjust wars. I will not murder innocent people merely because my government tells me to.
> 
> Tell me all of all the people we have killed in Iraq and Afghanistan how many of them were actually a threat to American citizens?
> 
> They have no Navy to speak of, no air force to speak of no way to mount any meaningful attack on this country.
> 
> I'll pose the same questions for any other undeclared war we have waged.
> 
> We are talking about war so encompassing as to require a draft no war since WWII has been worthy of a draft because no war since then has been in response to a legitimate threat to America.
Click to expand...


What in the world gave you the idiotic idea that *you* have to be aware of a threat for there to be one? War is and always has been part of global politics which also includes such things as allies and power blocks and any number of treaties and other things of which you remain blissfully unaware. Recent wars no less so any that came before.
Korea and Vietnam-aside from involving alliances and treaties-were also very much a part of the Cold War which could well have been the most important war ever fought. 

Did you miss 9/11?  It was in all the news. Islamic jihadists have been and remain a very serious threat that only the terminally ignorant would ignore. We have no choice to be at war with them. We can either fight it in the ME or here at home.


----------



## SFC Ollie

Spiderman said:


> 9thIDdoc said:
> 
> 
> 
> If you aren't willing to do what needs to be done to pass the rights and freedoms gifted you by our forefathers to our children and grandchildren you're part of the problem and (IMO) have no right to consider this your country.
> It is no more your place to decide what wars should be fought as it is your place to pick the president
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The undeclared war in the middle east is doing nothing to protect our freedoms because neither iraq nor afghanistan posed a real threat to us.
> 
> And I think the people have the responsibility to disobey the government if the government is engaged in unjust wars. I will not murder innocent people merely because my government tells me to.
> 
> Tell me all of all the people we have killed in Iraq and Afghanistan how many of them were actually a threat to American citizens?
> 
> They have no Navy to speak of, no air force to speak of no way to mount any meaningful attack on this country.
> 
> I'll pose the same questions for any other undeclared war we have waged.
> 
> We are talking about war so encompassing as to require a draft no war since WWII has been worthy of a draft because no war since then has been in response to a legitimate threat to America.
Click to expand...


This from the same person who claims that they care about people. But you don't care enough to help keep the South Koreans free, and you don't care enough to help attempt to keep the South Vietnamese people free. You're all talk.....And not really worthy of my time. You are the weakest link, Goodby.


----------



## Unkotare

9thIDdoc said:


> A person who willingly accepts the good things this country has to offer should be willing serve his country if called to do so. If not he is simply a leech with no redeeming value.[/COLOR]





Exactly.


----------



## Dr Grump

9thIDdoc said:


> What in the world gave you the idiotic idea that you have to be aware of a threat for there to be one? War is and always has been part of global politics which also includes such things as allies and power blocks and any number of treaties and other things of which you remain blissfully unaware. Recent wars no less so any that came before.
> Korea and Vietnam-aside from involving alliances and treaties-were also very much a part of the Cold War which could well have been the most important war ever fought.
> 
> Did you miss 9/11?  It was in all the news. Islamic jihadists have been and remain a very serious threat that only the terminally ignorant would ignore. We have no choice to be at war with them. We can either fight it in the ME or here at home



First of all, if they're gonna send you off to war, they better have a fucking good reason, and yes, I want to know what I'm being asked to sacrifice. And it ain't dodgy WMD's that don't even exist.

The Cold War my arse. What a pathetic excuse.  The US had enough nukes to blow up the world 10 times over. Vietnam was none of its business. See the movie the Fog of War - it's basically a 90 minute interview with McNamara. He almost admits it was a dumb war.

What do Islamic Jihadists have to do with Iraq and Afghanistan? The 9-11 scum were from SA and Egypt...


----------



## Dr Grump

SFC Ollie said:


> This from the same person who claims that they care about people. But you don't care enough to help keep the South Koreans free, and you don't care enough to help attempt to keep the South Vietnamese people free. You're all talk.....And not really worthy of my time. You are the weakest link, Goodby.



Are you telling me that South Vietnam and Korea - at the time - weren't totalitarian regimes? is that what you are telling me? really?


----------



## Unkotare

Dr Grump said:


> What do Islamic Jihadists have to do with Iraq and Afghanistan? The 9-11 scum were from SA and Egypt...





[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BNsrK6P9QvI]Picard's Epic Double Facepalm - YouTube[/ame]


----------



## Desperado

SFC Ollie said:


> But you don't care enough to help keep the South Koreans free, and you don't care enough to help attempt to keep the South Vietnamese people free. You're all talk.....And not really worthy of my time. You are the weakest link, Goodby.



It is not the responsibility of the United States to jump into the middle of another country's civil war be it Vietnam or Korea.  The biggest problem with the United States  is that we cannot keep our noses out of other people's business.


----------



## SFC Ollie

Yep we should never have an Allie or go to their aid......Got it.........

You people are sickening.


----------



## 9thIDdoc

Dr Grump said:


> 9thIDdoc said:
> 
> 
> 
> I have never agreed conscription was something this nation should do. Nor was I especially enthusiastic about our involvement in Vietnam. But when I received my draft notice I sucked it up and enlisted because it was the right thing to do. And it was.
> A person who willingly accepts the good things this country has to offer should be willing serve his country if called to do so. If not he is simply a leech with no redeeming value.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm trying to think the last time I read such tosh in a serious thread. So if your president tells you March off and invade Canada because he says so, you'll just join up and off you go? Talk about a lemming...
> 
> Nobody - Nobody has the right to tell you to go and (maybe) sacrifice your life for something you don't believe in.
> 
> The fact you think Vietnam was 'the right thing to do' says it all really. The last war the US was involved in that was righteous was WWII. Maybe, just maybe Korea. But the rest? Those who burned their draft cards for Vietnam and went to Canada are also heroes in my book...as are those who served.
Click to expand...


Tosh?! Oh no! Say it ain't so.

_The fact you think Vietnam was 'the right thing to do' says it all really._

Yes it does. With a draft notice in hand there was no legal or honorable way to avoid going. I enlisted-at the cost of an additional 1.5 yr. commitment-for training to become a medic and I went to Vietnam to fight to keep as many of our guys as alive and healthy as possible. I like to think I did a pretty good job even though there was a price to pay. I still think that was a goal worth fighting for. 

Soldiers fight for their country and their fellow soldiers; not for politics. And that is just as true now as it ever has been.


----------



## Dr Grump

SFC Ollie said:


> Yep we should never have an Allie or go to their aid......Got it.........
> 
> You people are sickening.



Not saying that at all. US was honorable in WWII. Actually they were in most of the wars they have been in since. It's the reason(s) for going that are the issue..


----------



## Dr Grump

9thIDdoc said:


> Tosh?! Oh no! Say it ain't so.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes it does. With a draft notice in hand there was no legal or honorable way to avoid going. I enlisted-at the cost of an additional 1.5 yr. commitment-for training to become a medic and I went to Vietnam to fight to keep as many of our guys as alive and healthy as possible. I like to think I did a pretty good job even though there was a price to pay. I still think that was a goal worth fighting for.
> 
> Soldiers fight for their country and their fellow soldiers; not for politics. And that is just as true now as it ever has been.



And I think you deserve any kudos that comes your way. You made your decision and that is what you feel comfortable with, and I'm pretty sure you did a more than admirable job. However, just because you made a decision about your future doesn't mean you have to degenerate others for their decisions. There is no right or wrong here in that regard. Do I think Vietnam was a mistake? Absolutely. Does that mean you made the wrong decision? Yeah, I do, but that doesn't mean I'm right. You have to live with what you live with. You are no better or no worse than those who didn't go to Vietnam.


----------



## Drake_Roberts

SFC Ollie said:


> It's obvious that there are certain people on this thread that if the USA were ever to come under attack they would simply  be happy to take the winners side. Of course they would hide under their beds until it was over.........



I don't give a damn about my opinions about the US regime, if America was invaded by a outside hostile nation, I would gladly enlist and pray any decent American would as well.


----------



## 9thIDdoc

Drake_Roberts said:


> SFC Ollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> It's obvious that there are certain people on this thread that if the USA were ever to come under attack they would simply  be happy to take the winners side. Of course they would hide under their beds until it was over.........
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I don't give a damn about my opinions about the US regime, if America was invaded by a outside hostile nation, I would gladly enlist and pray any decent American would as well.
Click to expand...


And you would still be in boot camp when the issue was decided. That's one of the reasons not to wait until they are kicking your door in.


----------



## Spiderman

9thIDdoc said:


> Spiderman said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 9thIDdoc said:
> 
> 
> 
> If you aren't willing to do what needs to be done to pass the rights and freedoms gifted you by our forefathers to our children and grandchildren you're part of the problem and (IMO) have no right to consider this your country.
> It is no more your place to decide what wars should be fought as it is your place to pick the president
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The undeclared war in the middle east is doing nothing to protect our freedoms because neither iraq nor afghanistan posed a real threat to us.
> 
> And I think the people have the responsibility to disobey the government if the government is engaged in unjust wars. I will not murder innocent people merely because my government tells me to.
> 
> Tell me all of all the people we have killed in Iraq and Afghanistan how many of them were actually a threat to American citizens?
> 
> They have no Navy to speak of, no air force to speak of no way to mount any meaningful attack on this country.
> 
> I'll pose the same questions for any other undeclared war we have waged.
> 
> We are talking about war so encompassing as to require a draft no war since WWII has been worthy of a draft because no war since then has been in response to a legitimate threat to America.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> What in the world gave you the idiotic idea that *you* have to be aware of a threat for there to be one? War is and always has been part of global politics which also includes such things as allies and power blocks and any number of treaties and other things of which you remain blissfully unaware. Recent wars no less so any that came before.
> Korea and Vietnam-aside from involving alliances and treaties-were also very much a part of the Cold War which could well have been the most important war ever fought.
> 
> Did you miss 9/11?  It was in all the news. Islamic jihadists have been and remain a very serious threat that only the terminally ignorant would ignore. We have no choice to be at war with them. We can either fight it in the ME or here at home.
Click to expand...


We invaded Iraq to enforce UN sanctions not because there was a threat to our country. 

And really the terrorist threat is obviously not as big as we think.  If it were there would be car bombs going off on a regular basis.  There would be suicide bombings in our hotels.


----------



## Spiderman

SFC Ollie said:


> Spiderman said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 9thIDdoc said:
> 
> 
> 
> If you aren't willing to do what needs to be done to pass the rights and freedoms gifted you by our forefathers to our children and grandchildren you're part of the problem and (IMO) have no right to consider this your country.
> It is no more your place to decide what wars should be fought as it is your place to pick the president
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The undeclared war in the middle east is doing nothing to protect our freedoms because neither iraq nor afghanistan posed a real threat to us.
> 
> And I think the people have the responsibility to disobey the government if the government is engaged in unjust wars. I will not murder innocent people merely because my government tells me to.
> 
> Tell me all of all the people we have killed in Iraq and Afghanistan how many of them were actually a threat to American citizens?
> 
> They have no Navy to speak of, no air force to speak of no way to mount any meaningful attack on this country.
> 
> I'll pose the same questions for any other undeclared war we have waged.
> 
> We are talking about war so encompassing as to require a draft no war since WWII has been worthy of a draft because no war since then has been in response to a legitimate threat to America.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> This from the same person who claims that they care about people. But you don't care enough to help keep the South Koreans free, and you don't care enough to help attempt to keep the South Vietnamese people free. You're all talk.....And not really worthy of my time. You are the weakest link, Goodby.
Click to expand...


SO now I not only have to die for my government but for every other government as well?


----------



## Spiderman

Unkotare said:


> Spiderman said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> That's because you're nothing, you're nobody; a worthless, empty shell where there should be a human being.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And yet you feel the need to keep responding to my posts. ...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> YOU need to be reminded of what you aren't. Maybe someday, by some magic, you'll turn in to a real human being.
Click to expand...


YOU seem to think I give a shit about your opinion.  The fact that you believe in magic explains why you are such a willing drone.


----------



## Spiderman

Drake_Roberts said:


> SFC Ollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> It's obvious that there are certain people on this thread that if the USA were ever to come under attack they would simply  be happy to take the winners side. Of course they would hide under their beds until it was over.........
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I don't give a damn about my opinions about the US regime, if America was invaded by a outside hostile nation, I would gladly enlist and pray any decent American would as well.
Click to expand...


And the US has invaded more countries than any other nation in modern history.

To believe that all those undeclared acts of war were the last resort to protect America and its citizens is naive at best.

And if there was a threat we should have been fully informed. It is impossible to trust the intentions of a government, its politicians and their puppet masters when they are allowed to lie to us with impunity.


----------



## JWBooth

It is always a mistake to believe the government.


----------



## Desperado

SFC Ollie said:


> Yep we should never have an Allie or go to their aid..



Prior to the US getting involved in their civil wars, How were South Korea or South Vietnam our Allies?  Did they help us in WW2?  What exactly made them our ally?


----------



## editec

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F0nHWAoIfxo]LARRY VERNE- "MR. CUSTER" ( W / LYRICS) - YouTube[/ame]


----------



## Drake_Roberts

9thIDdoc said:


> Drake_Roberts said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SFC Ollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> It's obvious that there are certain people on this thread that if the USA were ever to come under attack they would simply  be happy to take the winners side. Of course they would hide under their beds until it was over.........
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I don't give a damn about my opinions about the US regime, if America was invaded by a outside hostile nation, I would gladly enlist and pray any decent American would as well.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> And you would still be in boot camp when the issue was decided. That's one of the reasons not to wait until they are kicking your door in.
Click to expand...


Sorry, but if America was getting its ass kicked here in the States, I doubt they would make recruits go through a year and a half of training only to be mowed down by an enemy ambush. Maybe officers would go through extended training, but I doubt foot soldiers would.


----------



## MikeK

I believe the draft is a good thing, mainly because a conscripted army is a People's army, but also because the draft produces an enormous pool of trained soldiers in the civilian population who could be activated and deployed in a matter of two weeks in the event of a military emergency whereas it takes months to induct and train raw recruits.


----------



## bianco

No need for a draft these days...there are drones, missiles, and nukes.

Putting boots on the ground to get slaughtered is no longer needed...and is a total outrage anyway.

Draft?
Don't forget all the young women/women, all the minorities, all the Muslim women.
It must be "One in, all in" or stand by for the outrage and 'war'.


----------



## MikeK

bianco said:


> No need for a draft these days...there are drones, missiles, and nukes.
> 
> Putting boots on the ground to get slaughtered is no longer needed...and is a total outrage anyway.
> 
> Draft?
> Don't forget all the young women/women, all the minorities, all the Muslim women.
> It must be "One in, all in" or stand by for the outrage and 'war'.



In the age of Mutually Assured Destruction our use of nukes against a nuclear-equipped adversary would be suicide.  And knowing there are enemies who are willing to sacrifice their lives to strike at their enemy it is critically important that we are able to effectively confront them without pushing the Armageddon Button.  

While I  believe there was no good reason for us to invade Iraq, if you recall the reason why bush fired then-Chief-of-Staff General Shinseki was Shinseki refused to put boots on the ground in Iraq because we simply didn't have enough of them.  He said in order to avoid a prolonged and costly occupation, along with the unnecessary loss of American lives, we would need at least another 150,000 troops to expand across and secure that nation against resurgence and insurgency and enable our being out of there in less than one year.

Bush wouldn't listen and it cost us over 5,000 lives, countless maimings, and nearly five trillion dollars.


----------



## Unkotare

Spiderman said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Spiderman said:
> 
> 
> 
> And yet you feel the need to keep responding to my posts. ...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> YOU need to be reminded of what you aren't. Maybe someday, by some magic, you'll turn in to a real human being.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> YOU seem to think I give a shit about your opinion.  ...
Click to expand...


Yeah, you don't give a shit about anything. Keep trying to be 'proud' of that, you nihilistic waste of a human life. You're just an empty shell taking up space in my country.


----------



## Unkotare

bianco said:


> No need for a draft these days...there are drones, missiles, and nukes.
> 
> Putting boots on the ground to get slaughtered is no longer needed....





Oh you're a real military genius, you are...


----------



## bianco

Unkotare said:


> bianco said:
> 
> 
> 
> No need for a draft these days...there are drones, missiles, and nukes.
> 
> Putting boots on the ground to get slaughtered is no longer needed....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oh you're a real military genius, you are...
Click to expand...



Michelle Witmer was killed in Iraq.
Just one American among many who were sacrificed for nothing.
There was no need for any of them to die.
Iraq, still as big a basket case as it was before...in fact worse.
Saddam was America's good buddy when he was attacking Iran.

Afghanistan worked out well...not.
All they had to do was watch Rambo3...to know that invading Afghanistan was total lunacy.
But they knew better.
Of course, they weren't the boots on the ground that got slaughtered and maimed for life, for nothing.
Afghanistan, still heroin export central.
AQ is still going strong, simply just got another chief.

Boots on the ground...seems they're thought of by many as just expendable 'tin soldiers'.

Draft...baaah!


----------



## bianco

MikeK said:


> bianco said:
> 
> 
> 
> No need for a draft these days...there are drones, missiles, and nukes.
> 
> Putting boots on the ground to get slaughtered is no longer needed...and is a total outrage anyway.
> 
> Draft?
> Don't forget all the young women/women, all the minorities, all the Muslim women.
> It must be "One in, all in" or stand by for the outrage and 'war'.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In the age of Mutually Assured Destruction our use of nukes against a nuclear-equipped adversary would be suicide.  And knowing there are enemies who are willing to sacrifice their lives to strike at their enemy it is critically important that we are able to effectively confront them without pushing the Armageddon Button.
> 
> While I  believe there was no good reason for us to invade Iraq, if you recall the reason why bush fired then-Chief-of-Staff General Shinseki was Shinseki refused to put boots on the ground in Iraq because we simply didn't have enough of them.  He said in order to avoid a prolonged and costly occupation, along with the unnecessary loss of American lives, we would need at least another 150,000 troops to expand across and secure that nation against resurgence and insurgency and enable our being out of there in less than one year.
> 
> Bush wouldn't listen and it cost us over 5,000 lives, countless maimings, and nearly five trillion dollars.
Click to expand...


There are conventional bombs and conventional missiles, drones, subs etc. 
Congress approved Bush's invasions...next time they should think more deeply.
Boots on the ground should be kept to repel any invasion on home soil.
See China invading Iraq and Afghanistan?
No.


----------



## Unkotare

bianco said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> bianco said:
> 
> 
> 
> No need for a draft these days...there are drones, missiles, and nukes.
> 
> Putting boots on the ground to get slaughtered is no longer needed....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oh you're a real military genius, you are...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Michelle Witmer was killed in Iraq.
> Just one American among many who were sacrificed for nothing.
> !
Click to expand...




Fuck you and your "for nothing" bumper sticker bullshit, you little fucking worm. You are an absolute disgrace, you disrespectful piece of shit.


----------



## Unkotare

bianco said:


> There are conventional bombs and conventional missiles, drones, subs etc. .





You can't win a war by just lobbing bombs from afar, you stupid fucking shit.


----------



## bianco

Seems to me that those who serve are just treated as expendable pawns...

Air Force dumped ashes of more troops? remains in Va. landfill than acknowledged - The Washington Post

_*Air Force dumped ashes of more troops&#8217; remains in Va. landfill than acknowledged *


The Air Force dumped the incinerated partial remains of at least 274 American troops in a Virginia landfill, far more than the military had acknowledged, before halting the secretive practice three years ago, records show.

The Air Force had maintained that it could not estimate how many troops might have had their remains sent to a landfill. The practice was revealed last month by The Washington Post, which was able to document a single case of a soldier whose partial remains were sent to the King George County landfill in Virginia. 
The new data, for the first time, show the scope of what has become an embarrassing episode for vaunted Dover Air Base, the main port of entry for America&#8217;s war dead. _

#####

Partial remains should be put in a coffin and buried with full military honours, as with all other deceased veterans.

Dumped in landfill?
Yes, the caring and sharing military.
No draft!


----------



## bianco

Unkotare said:


> bianco said:
> 
> 
> 
> There are conventional bombs and conventional missiles, drones, subs etc. .
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You can't win a war by just lobbing bombs from afar, you stupid fucking shit.
Click to expand...


I say you can.
First you blow up the palaces and homes of all the leaders, having threatened to do so if they don't do what you're asking them nicely to do.

Drone bombings, missile strikes, Taliban strongholds turned into ash.
No stomach for that?...then don't start the wars.


Doing what the Indians used to do...surround the forts, cut off the food and water deliveries. and wait...is another good tactic.


----------



## bianco

Unkotare said:


> bianco said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> Oh you're a real military genius, you are...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Michelle Witmer was killed in Iraq.
> Just one American among many who were sacrificed for nothing.
> !
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Fuck you and your "for nothing" bumper sticker bullshit, you little fucking worm. You are an absolute disgrace, you disrespectful piece of shit.
Click to expand...


No disrespect...I support the troops, all of them, every single one of them.

Perhaps you'd like to enlighten me as to just what exactly Michelle Witmer [National Guard]and all the others died and were maimed for life for.


----------



## MikeK

Considering the nature and the purpose of our military actions in the Middle East, the imposing question is *what motivates those who volunteer to participate in it?*

My father and his two brothers joined the army at a time when the U.S. was attacked by a nation which had formidable military resources.  Based on all I've read and what I've been told, they endured much physical suffering and mental agony to defend us.  If they hadn't made that sacrifice our Nation would have been invaded and occupied.  I regard every American who volunteered to fight the Japanese and the Germans as genuine heroes.  

The World Trade Center was attacked by nineteen suicidal Middle Eastern shahids who represented an enemy which has absolutely no capability of invading the U.S. or effecting any aggression on this Nation other than occasional surreptitiously destructive ("terrorist") incidents implemented from within -- essentially a federal police matter.   While I do not disregard the bravery of those troops who demonstrate traditional warrior virtues on the battlefields of Iraq and Afghanistan, the fact remains *none of it was or is necessary or in any way productive.*  These people have volunteered and continue to volunteer to waste themselves.  

To learn now that the remains of these wasted Americans are being quietly dumped into landfills is in undeniable fact a symbolic statement of the reality which is contemporary American military policy.  

It is nothing to be proud of.  And if my father and my uncles who suffered through and fortunately survived World War Two were still alive I'm sure they would be disgusted by the cynically disgraceful waste.


----------



## 9thIDdoc

MikeK said:


> I believe the draft is a good thing, mainly because a conscripted army is a People's army, but also because the draft produces an enormous pool of trained soldiers in the civilian population who could be activated and deployed in a matter of two weeks in the event of a military emergency whereas it takes months to induct and train raw recruits.



We already have that pool in the form of the military reserve units and national guard.
A conscripted army is a slave army; not a "People's" army. And having reported and served once it is unlikely they would be willing to do so again. They would think-quite rightly-that it would be someone else's turn. And if they didn't receive those months of training how do you think they are ever going to become trained soldiers?


----------



## Unkotare

bianco said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> bianco said:
> 
> 
> 
> There are conventional bombs and conventional missiles, drones, subs etc. .
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You can't win a war by just lobbing bombs from afar, you stupid fucking shit.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I say you can..
Click to expand...



And history says you're a fucking idiot.


----------



## Unkotare

bianco said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> bianco said:
> 
> 
> 
> Michelle Witmer was killed in Iraq.
> Just one American among many who were sacrificed for nothing.
> !
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Fuck you and your "for nothing" bumper sticker bullshit, you little fucking worm. You are an absolute disgrace, you disrespectful piece of shit.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No disrespect...
Click to expand...



Fuck you. It IS disrespect and you ARE a low-life piece of shit.


----------



## 9thIDdoc

MikeK said:


> bianco said:
> 
> 
> 
> No need for a draft these days...there are drones, missiles, and nukes.
> 
> Putting boots on the ground to get slaughtered is no longer needed...and is a total outrage anyway.
> 
> Draft?
> Don't forget all the young women/women, all the minorities, all the Muslim women.
> It must be "One in, all in" or stand by for the outrage and 'war'.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In the age of Mutually Assured Destruction our use of nukes against a nuclear-equipped adversary would be suicide.  And knowing there are enemies who are willing to sacrifice their lives to strike at their enemy it is critically important that we are able to effectively confront them without pushing the Armageddon Button.
> 
> While I  believe there was no good reason for us to invade Iraq, if you recall the reason why bush fired then-Chief-of-Staff General Shinseki was Shinseki refused to put boots on the ground in Iraq because we simply didn't have enough of them.  He said in order to avoid a prolonged and costly occupation, along with the unnecessary loss of American lives, we would need at least another 150,000 troops to expand across and secure that nation against resurgence and insurgency and enable our being out of there in less than one year.
> 
> Bush wouldn't listen and it cost us over 5,000 lives, countless maimings, and nearly five trillion dollars.
Click to expand...


And events proved Shinseki wrong. 
Our troops are there to defend us. That's what they do. Fighting terrorists is necessary as long as they wage jihad against us and doing it on their home ground is much better than doing so on ours. Our troops deserve your respect and support; not your slander.


----------



## Pogo

9thIDdoc said:


> MikeK said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> bianco said:
> 
> 
> 
> No need for a draft these days...there are drones, missiles, and nukes.
> 
> Putting boots on the ground to get slaughtered is no longer needed...and is a total outrage anyway.
> 
> Draft?
> Don't forget all the young women/women, all the minorities, all the Muslim women.
> It must be "One in, all in" or stand by for the outrage and 'war'.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In the age of Mutually Assured Destruction our use of nukes against a nuclear-equipped adversary would be suicide.  And knowing there are enemies who are willing to sacrifice their lives to strike at their enemy it is critically important that we are able to effectively confront them without pushing the Armageddon Button.
> 
> While I  believe there was no good reason for us to invade Iraq, if you recall the reason why bush fired then-Chief-of-Staff General Shinseki was Shinseki refused to put boots on the ground in Iraq because we simply didn't have enough of them.  He said in order to avoid a prolonged and costly occupation, along with the unnecessary loss of American lives, we would need at least another 150,000 troops to expand across and secure that nation against resurgence and insurgency and enable our being out of there in less than one year.
> 
> Bush wouldn't listen and it cost us over 5,000 lives, countless maimings, and nearly five trillion dollars.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> And events proved Shinseki wrong.
> Our troops are there to defend us. That's what they do. Fighting terrorists is necessary as long as they wage jihad against us and doing it on their home ground is much better than doing so on ours. Our troops deserve your respect and support; not your slander.
Click to expand...


Poster please.

What our troops deserve is wise and reasoned leadership -- not some yahoo sending other people's children to get the guy who "tried to kill my dad".  The fact is Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11, and even Shrub admitted that.  Nothing.  So questioning that for what it is isn't "slander"; it's patriotism.


----------



## 9thIDdoc

_Considering the nature and the purpose of our military actions in the Middle East, the imposing question is *what motivates those who volunteer to participate in it?*_

Exactly those same things that motivated your father and two brothers.

My father and his two brothers joined the army at a time when the U.S. was attacked by a nation which had formidable military resources.  Based on all I've read and what I've been told, they endured much physical suffering and mental agony to defend us.  If they hadn't made that sacrifice our Nation would have been invaded and occupied. 

Bullshit. There is no evidence that Germany, Japan or Italy had any intention of invading the continental US. Germany battered the UK with bombs and rockets but was still unable to carry out the invasion they had planned. So they invaded Russia and lost.

 I regard every American who volunteered to fight the Japanese and the Germans as genuine heroes.  

So do I. But no more so than any other soldier that has fought for our country.

_The World Trade Center was attacked by nineteen suicidal Middle Eastern shahids who represented an enemy which has absolutely no capability of invading the U.S. or effecting any aggression on this Nation other than occasional surreptitiously destructive ("terrorist") incidents implemented from within -- essentially a federal police matter._ 

You overlook the fact that they obviously didn't _need _ that capability to cause us great destruction and death. Or do you just not think we deserve to be protected as long as we are not invaded. Is there any doubt that they would use WMD on us given a chance? Did you miss the fact Iraq had used chemical weapons and were thought to playing with biological ones? 

_ While I do not disregard the bravery of those troops who demonstrate traditional warrior virtues on the battlefields of Iraq and Afghanistan, the fact remains *none of it was or is necessary or in any way productive.*  These people have volunteered and continue to volunteer to waste themselves._

Wrong. The truth is that you are willing to slander those who are fighting for you and undermine their efforts for no better reason than you are delusional enough think that your views on warfare and politics are the only correct ones. 

_To learn now that the remains of these wasted Americans are being quietly dumped into landfills is in undeniable fact a symbolic statement of the reality which is contemporary American military policy_.  

Why would you care when you display such disrespect yourself?


----------



## SFC Ollie

Why do so many people think we went into Iraq because of 9-11?


----------



## 9thIDdoc

Pogo said:


> 9thIDdoc said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MikeK said:
> 
> 
> 
> In the age of Mutually Assured Destruction our use of nukes against a nuclear-equipped adversary would be suicide.  And knowing there are enemies who are willing to sacrifice their lives to strike at their enemy it is critically important that we are able to effectively confront them without pushing the Armageddon Button.
> 
> While I  believe there was no good reason for us to invade Iraq, if you recall the reason why bush fired then-Chief-of-Staff General Shinseki was Shinseki refused to put boots on the ground in Iraq because we simply didn't have enough of them.  He said in order to avoid a prolonged and costly occupation, along with the unnecessary loss of American lives, we would need at least another 150,000 troops to expand across and secure that nation against resurgence and insurgency and enable our being out of there in less than one year.
> 
> Bush wouldn't listen and it cost us over 5,000 lives, countless maimings, and nearly five trillion dollars.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And events proved Shinseki wrong.
> Our troops are there to defend us. That's what they do. Fighting terrorists is necessary as long as they wage jihad against us and doing it on their home ground is much better than doing so on ours. Our troops deserve your respect and support; not your slander.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Poster please.
> 
> What our troops deserve is wise and reasoned leadership -- not some yahoo sending other people's children to get the guy who "tried to kill my dad".  The fact is Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11, and even Shrub admitted that.  Nothing.  So questioning that for what it is isn't "slander"; it's patriotism.
Click to expand...


No it's bullshit because terrorists most certainly did commit the 9/11 attack. We went to war against terrorists (9/11 was not the only terrorist attack made against us), Saddam was a terrorist and Iraq publicly supported terrorism.


----------



## Pogo

SFC Ollie said:


> Why do so many people think we went into Iraq because of 9-11?



Good question.

It's because they believed George Bush, but why would people believe him?  That is a puzzler.


----------



## bianco

The draftees might of course just throw down their weapons, and sit down on the parade ground and refuse to do anything...in protest at being forced into the military...at a time whien Tojo and Hitler are not coming over the hill to enslave all Americans.
Should make interesting headlines in the papers and on the 6 o'clock news.

An army full of draftees who don't want to be there, can't do all the physical stuff [how are 'Barbie' and her male equivalent ever gonna carry the heavy packs around, climb etc the obstacle course, keep up on runs etc etc etc?], and hate the govt/military for forcing them away from their jobs etc.......................just what you'd want, not.


----------



## Pogo

9thIDdoc said:


> Pogo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 9thIDdoc said:
> 
> 
> 
> And events proved Shinseki wrong.
> Our troops are there to defend us. That's what they do. Fighting terrorists is necessary as long as they wage jihad against us and doing it on their home ground is much better than doing so on ours. Our troops deserve your respect and support; not your slander.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Poster please.
> 
> What our troops deserve is wise and reasoned leadership -- not some yahoo sending other people's children to get the guy who "tried to kill my dad".  The fact is Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11, and even Shrub admitted that.  Nothing.  So questioning that for what it is isn't "slander"; it's patriotism.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No it's bullshit because terrorists most certainly did commit the 9/11 attack. We went to war against terrorists (9/11 was not the only terrorist attack made against us), Saddam was a terrorist and Iraq publicly supported terrorism.
Click to expand...


Doubletalk post.

You haven't refuted a thing I said.  Unless you're suggesting that all terrorists live in Iraq.

The 9/11 gang was all Al Qaeda and came from mostly Saudi Arabia, with two from the  UAE and one each from Lebanon and Egypt.  Zero of which are "Iraq".


----------



## Unkotare

bianco said:


> The draftees might of course just throw down their weapons, and sit down on the parade ground and refuse to do anything....





Americans are not like you weaklings.


----------



## Godboy

Unkotare said:


> bianco said:
> 
> 
> 
> There are conventional bombs and conventional missiles, drones, subs etc. .
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You can't win a war by just lobbing bombs from afar, you stupid fucking shit.
Click to expand...


We could actually. If we didnt care about civilian casualties, we could carpet bomb every city and town until nothing was left standing. Im not saying we SHOULD do that, but I am saying we COULD.


----------



## Pogo

Unkotare said:


> You can't win a war by just lobbing bombs from afar, you stupid fucking shit.



Hey, I bet you could win one by sitting back on the internet trolling with ad hominem all day, right?


----------



## MikeK

Godboy said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> bianco said:
> 
> 
> 
> There are conventional bombs and conventional missiles, drones, subs etc. .
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You can't win a war by just lobbing bombs from afar, you stupid fucking shit.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> We could actually. If we didnt care about civilian casualties, we could carpet bomb every city and town until nothing was left standing. Im not saying we SHOULD do that, but I am saying we COULD.
Click to expand...

The U.S. conducted extensive carpet-bombing raids on North and South Vietnam and Cambodia.  In addition to the ruin of a considerable amount of those nations' natural resources, one shamefully cruel effect of that bombing was and to this day remains lethal to the innocent populations, including the thousands of peasant farmers and children who are killed or maimed when they happen upon the hidden residual components of the tons of cluster bombs we dropped -- not to mention those who were poisoned by the Agent Orange and incinerated by the napalm.

What we achieved by that carpet-bombing is a damning page in world history that cannot be erased -- and nothing more.


----------



## Pogo

9thIDdoc said:


> _Considering the nature and the purpose of our military actions in the Middle East, the imposing question is *what motivates those who volunteer to participate in it?*_
> 
> Exactly those same things that motivated your father and two brothers.
> 
> My father and his two brothers joined the army at a time when the U.S. was attacked by a nation which had formidable military resources.  Based on all I've read and what I've been told, they endured much physical suffering and mental agony to defend us.  If they hadn't made that sacrifice our Nation would have been invaded and occupied.
> 
> Bullshit. There is no evidence that Germany, Japan or Italy had any intention of invading the continental US. Germany battered the UK with bombs and rockets but was still unable to carry out the invasion they had planned. So they invaded Russia and lost.
> 
> I regard every American who volunteered to fight the Japanese and the Germans as genuine heroes.
> 
> So do I. But no more so than any other soldier that has fought for our country.
> 
> _The World Trade Center was attacked by nineteen suicidal Middle Eastern shahids who represented an enemy which has absolutely no capability of invading the U.S. or effecting any aggression on this Nation other than occasional surreptitiously destructive ("terrorist") incidents implemented from within -- essentially a federal police matter._
> 
> You overlook the fact that they obviously didn't _need _ that capability to cause us great destruction and death. Or do you just not think we deserve to be protected as long as we are not invaded. Is there any doubt that they would use WMD on us given a chance? Did you miss the fact Iraq had used chemical weapons and were thought to playing with biological ones?
> 
> _ While I do not disregard the bravery of those troops who demonstrate traditional warrior virtues on the battlefields of Iraq and Afghanistan, the fact remains *none of it was or is necessary or in any way productive.*  These people have volunteered and continue to volunteer to waste themselves._
> 
> Wrong. The truth is that you are willing to slander those who are fighting for you and undermine their efforts for no better reason than you are delusional enough think that your views on warfare and politics are the only correct ones.
> 
> _To learn now that the remains of these wasted Americans are being quietly dumped into landfills is in undeniable fact a symbolic statement of the reality which is contemporary American military policy_.
> 
> Why would you care when you display such disrespect yourself?



What is this -- a conversation with yourself?

Do you just not get how to use the quote button?

Oh well.  Let us know which one of you wins...


----------



## jasonnfree

History said:


> So if the country had a draft* today* to fight in the Middle East, would you go?



The young and/or  stupid will go fight for big oil.  It's about oil company profits, not terrorists. That oil goes on the world market folks.  Even combat troops that lost an arm or a leg in the middle east don't  get a discount at the gas pump from exxon.
To add insult to injury, there are people in this country and even on this forum who give a big cheer when oil companies get away with paying little or no taxes.


----------



## MikeK

9thIDdoc said:


> No it's bullshit because terrorists most certainly did commit the 9/11 attack. We went to war against terrorists (9/11 was not the only terrorist attack made against us), Saddam was a terrorist and Iraq publicly supported terrorism.


(1) Please tell us exactly what a "terrorist" is.

(2) And excepting those who profit either directly or indirectly from the Military Industrial Complex, exactly how did I or any other ordinary American benefit from your service in the Middle East?


----------



## 9thIDdoc

*(1) Please tell us exactly what a "terrorist" is.*

Definition of âTerrorismâ in International Law

_"Consequently, despite the absence of a single universal definition of terrorism it is important to indicate that three main elements seem to be required for the crime of international terrorism; (a) the acts must constitute a criminal offence under most national legal systems, such as murder, kidnapping, hostage-taking, bombing; (b) they must be aimed at spreading terror by means of violent action directed to a State, the public, or particular groups of persons; (c) they must be politically, religiously, or ideologically motivated[14]."_

*2) And excepting those who profit either directly or indirectly from the Military Industrial Complex, exactly how did I or any other ordinary American benefit from your service in the Middle East?*

I didn't serve in the ME (Read. Comprehend.)
Our boys who did serve engaged and killed terrorists who might otherwise have committed heinous crimes against ordinary Americans. Seems to me not getting kidnapped, raped, tortured, blown up, burned alive or having your head cut off with a  dull knife is a considerable benefit.


----------



## MikeK

9thIDdoc said:


> *(1) Please tell us exactly what a "terrorist" is.*
> 
> Definition of âTerrorismâ in International Law
> 
> _"Consequently, despite the absence of a single universal definition of terrorism it is important to indicate that three main elements seem to be required for the crime of international terrorism; (a) the acts must constitute a criminal offence under most national legal systems, such as murder, kidnapping, hostage-taking, bombing; (b) they must be aimed at spreading terror by means of violent action directed to a State, the public, or particular groups of persons; (c) they must be politically, religiously, or ideologically motivated[14]."_
> 
> *2) And excepting those who profit either directly or indirectly from the Military Industrial Complex, exactly how did I or any other ordinary American benefit from your service in the Middle East?*
> 
> I didn't serve in the ME (Read. Comprehend.)
> Our boys who did serve engaged and killed terrorists who might otherwise have committed heinous crimes against ordinary Americans. Seems to me not getting kidnapped, raped, tortured, blown up, burned alive or having your head cut off with a  dull knife is a considerable benefit.


And how do you suppose "our boys" managed to identify these "terrorists" in Iraq and Afghanistan?   Can you describe the uniforms they wear?  

And do you think it's possible "our boys," being grossly and criminally misused by a corrupt and incompetent government, have harmed a lot of people who never did a thing to deserve it and because of that have become committed enemies of the U.S. who have good cause to despise Americans and might very well become the "terrorists" of tomorrow?  

Or do you have onanistic delusions of our Middle East adventures having some moral and situational resemblance to our motive and actions in WW-II?    

Look that up in your dictionary.


----------



## 9thIDdoc

_And how do you suppose "our boys" managed to identify these "terrorists" in Iraq and Afghanistan? Can you describe the uniforms they wear? _

If they shoot at you you kill them. It's not all that complicated.

_"And do you think it's possible "our boys," being grossly and criminally misused by a corrupt and incompetent government, have harmed a lot of people who never did a thing to deserve it and because of that have become committed enemies of the U.S. who have good cause to despise Americans and might very well become the "terrorists" of tomorrow?" _

No.

About the only difference between the ME and WWII is that we fought more honorable enemies in WWII.


----------



## sambino510

Personally, I wouldn't go, mainly just because I don't believe in violence as a means of solving a problem, at least not in the long term. No matter who the enemy is, us killing them is more likely to give them more reason to want to kill us back, not to make them stop. It might temporarily beat them down into submission, but if we ever want lasting peace in this world it isn't going to come at gunpoint.

 I know people aren't big fans of moral relativism, but I think it is kind of hard to determine right from wrong in these situations. In my opinion, killing is killing, no matter what the motivation or supposed justification. They say they're right and we're wrong,and we say the opposite. We're all equal human beings more-or-less, so who can judge which side is correct?

In a way, I do wish there was still a draft though. At least that way it would anger people enough who dislike war so that these conflicts couldn't continue. Instead, the volunteer system allows these wars to be pushed to the back of peoples' minds due to minimal media coverage and little to no personal sacrifice by the average American. Wars simply don't hit home anymore, and I think they should if we are going to go out of our way to wage them.


----------



## Dr Grump

bianco said:


> Perhaps you'd like to enlighten me as to just what exactly Michelle Witmer [National Guard]and all the others died and were maimed for life for.



Truth, Justice and the American Way..


----------



## JWBooth

9thIDdoc said:


> _And how do you suppose "our boys" managed to identify these "terrorists" in Iraq and Afghanistan? Can you describe the uniforms they wear? _
> 
> If they shoot at you you kill them. It's not all that complicated.
> 
> _"And do you think it's possible "our boys," being grossly and criminally misused by a corrupt and incompetent government, have harmed a lot of people who never did a thing to deserve it and because of that have become committed enemies of the U.S. who have good cause to despise Americans and might very well become the "terrorists" of tomorrow?" _
> 
> No.
> 
> About the only difference between the ME and WWII is that we fought more honorable enemies in WWII.


A bunch of people show up in your neighborhood wearing strange clothes, carrying weapons, and take over. You object when they enter homes uninvited, take prisoner your friends and neighbors, plant explosives in your fields, accost you as you go about your business.
Do you:
A. Eat this shit sandwich
B: Resist

Just curious.


----------



## Geaux4it

History said:


> So if the country had a draft* today* to fight in the Middle East, would you go?



No,to old, but my son did without being drafted.

Now if a war was to come to our shores like Red Dawn or something well, I'm in old fart or not.

-Geaux


----------



## Desperado

9thIDdoc said:


> *I didn't serve in the ME* (Read. Comprehend.)
> 
> Our boys who did serve engaged and killed terrorists *who might otherwise have committed* heinous crimes against ordinary Americans. Seems to me not getting kidnapped, raped, tortured, blown up, burned alive or having your head cut off with a  dull knife is a considerable benefit.



You have one serious case of paranoia.


----------



## SFC Ollie

sambino510 said:


> Personally, I wouldn't go, mainly just because I don't believe in violence as a means of solving a problem, at least not in the long term. No matter who the enemy is, us killing them is more likely to give them more reason to want to kill us back, not to make them stop. It might temporarily beat them down into submission, but if we ever want lasting peace in this world it isn't going to come at gunpoint.
> 
> I know people aren't big fans of moral relativism, but I think it is kind of hard to determine right from wrong in these situations. In my opinion, killing is killing, no matter what the motivation or supposed justification. They say they're right and we're wrong,and we say the opposite. We're all equal human beings more-or-less, so who can judge which side is correct?
> 
> In a way, I do wish there was still a draft though. At least that way it would anger people enough who dislike war so that these conflicts couldn't continue. Instead, the volunteer system allows these wars to be pushed to the back of peoples' minds due to minimal media coverage and little to no personal sacrifice by the average American. Wars simply don't hit home anymore, and I think they should if we are going to go out of our way to wage them.



You haven't a clue.


----------



## SFC Ollie

JWBooth said:


> 9thIDdoc said:
> 
> 
> 
> _And how do you suppose "our boys" managed to identify these "terrorists" in Iraq and Afghanistan? Can you describe the uniforms they wear? _
> 
> If they shoot at you you kill them. It's not all that complicated.
> 
> _"And do you think it's possible "our boys," being grossly and criminally misused by a corrupt and incompetent government, have harmed a lot of people who never did a thing to deserve it and because of that have become committed enemies of the U.S. who have good cause to despise Americans and might very well become the "terrorists" of tomorrow?" _
> 
> No.
> 
> About the only difference between the ME and WWII is that we fought more honorable enemies in WWII.
> 
> 
> 
> A bunch of people show up in your neighborhood wearing strange clothes, carrying weapons, and take over. You object when they enter homes uninvited, take prisoner your friends and neighbors, plant explosives in your fields, accost you as you go about your business.
> Do you:
> A. Eat this shit sandwich
> B: Resist
> 
> Just curious.
Click to expand...


Have the rape squads stopped and the torture rooms closed?


----------



## Pogo

sambino510 said:


> Personally, I wouldn't go, mainly just because I don't believe in violence as a means of solving a problem, at least not in the long term. No matter who the enemy is, us killing them is more likely to give them more reason to want to kill us back, not to make them stop. It might temporarily beat them down into submission, but if we ever want lasting peace in this world it isn't going to come at gunpoint.
> 
> I know people aren't big fans of moral relativism, but I think it is kind of hard to determine right from wrong in these situations. In my opinion, killing is killing, no matter what the motivation or supposed justification. They say they're right and we're wrong,and we say the opposite. We're all equal human beings more-or-less, so who can judge which side is correct?
> 
> In a way, I do wish there was still a draft though. At least that way it would anger people enough who dislike war so that these conflicts couldn't continue. Instead, the volunteer system allows these wars to be pushed to the back of peoples' minds due to minimal media coverage and little to no personal sacrifice by the average American. Wars simply don't hit home anymore, and I think they should if we are going to go out of our way to wage them.





JWBooth said:


> A bunch of people show up in your neighborhood wearing strange clothes, carrying weapons, and take over. You object when they enter homes uninvited, take prisoner your friends and neighbors, plant explosives in your fields, accost you as you go about your business.
> Do you:
> A. Eat this shit sandwich
> B: Resist
> 
> Just curious.




Number 2 obviously and without hesitation.  But I like the attitude in the top post too.  Resistance doesn't have to involve physical violence -- in fact that's the _least_ creative way to do it.


----------



## JWBooth

SFC Ollie said:


> JWBooth said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 9thIDdoc said:
> 
> 
> 
> _And how do you suppose "our boys" managed to identify these "terrorists" in Iraq and Afghanistan? Can you describe the uniforms they wear? _
> 
> If they shoot at you you kill them. It's not all that complicated.
> 
> _"And do you think it's possible "our boys," being grossly and criminally misused by a corrupt and incompetent government, have harmed a lot of people who never did a thing to deserve it and because of that have become committed enemies of the U.S. who have good cause to despise Americans and might very well become the "terrorists" of tomorrow?" _
> 
> No.
> 
> About the only difference between the ME and WWII is that we fought more honorable enemies in WWII.
> 
> 
> 
> A bunch of people show up in your neighborhood wearing strange clothes, carrying weapons, and take over. You object when they enter homes uninvited, take prisoner your friends and neighbors, plant explosives in your fields, accost you as you go about your business.
> Do you:
> A. Eat this shit sandwich
> B: Resist
> 
> Just curious.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Have the rape squads stopped and the torture rooms closed?
Click to expand...

Good point, I left off our treatment of civilian females and secret rendition interrogation/torture sites around the globe. Our government pissed away any moral high ground.
For the average Joe the questions remain the same, do you tolerate the invader or do you resist?


----------



## Pogo

I see what you're doing.


----------



## regent

SFC Ollie said:


> JWBooth said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 9thIDdoc said:
> 
> 
> 
> _And how do you suppose "our boys" managed to identify these "terrorists" in Iraq and Afghanistan? Can you describe the uniforms they wear? _
> 
> If they shoot at you you kill them. It's not all that complicated.
> 
> _"And do you think it's possible "our boys," being grossly and criminally misused by a corrupt and incompetent government, have harmed a lot of people who never did a thing to deserve it and because of that have become committed enemies of the U.S. who have good cause to despise Americans and might very well become the "terrorists" of tomorrow?" _
> 
> No.
> 
> About the only difference between the ME and WWII is that we fought more honorable enemies in WWII.
> 
> 
> 
> A bunch of people show up in your neighborhood wearing strange clothes, carrying weapons, and take over. You object when they enter homes uninvited, take prisoner your friends and neighbors, plant explosives in your fields, accost you as you go about your business.
> Do you:
> A. Eat this shit sandwich
> B: Resist
> 
> Just curious.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Have the rape squads stopped and the torture rooms closed?
Click to expand...


What have most people done in that situation throughout history?
On these boards I would fight to the death, killing anyone that got in my way. 
In reality?


----------



## MikeK

sambino510 said:


> Personally, I wouldn't go, mainly just because I don't believe in violence as a means of solving a problem, at least not in the long term. No matter who the enemy is, us killing them is more likely to give them more reason to want to kill us back, not to make them stop. It might temporarily beat them down into submission, but if we ever want lasting peace in this world it isn't going to come at gunpoint.
> 
> I know people aren't big fans of moral relativism, but I think it is kind of hard to determine right from wrong in these situations. In my opinion, killing is killing, no matter what the motivation or supposed justification. They say they're right and we're wrong,and we say the opposite. We're all equal human beings more-or-less, so who can judge which side is correct?
> 
> In a way, I do wish there was still a draft though. At least that way it would anger people enough who dislike war so that these conflicts couldn't continue. Instead, the volunteer system allows these wars to be pushed to the back of peoples' minds due to minimal media coverage and little to no personal sacrifice by the average American. Wars simply don't hit home anymore, and I think they should if we are going to go out of our way to wage them.


You've got it right.  If it were not for the draft we probably would have stayed in Vietnam long enough to lose another 58,000 American lives -- for absolutely no good reason.

I was an active Vietnam protester and I can tell you that anger against the draft, which supplied that unnecessary debacle with lives to waste, was the engine that drove the resistance and forced Nixon to end it.  The reason Washington was so willing to suspend the draft was awareness that after Vietnam the draft would serve to impede further military adventures -- like the Iraq invasion.  Bush could never have invaded Iraq if the draft were still active.


----------



## MikeK

Geaux4it said:


> History said:
> 
> 
> 
> So if the country had a draft* today* to fight in the Middle East, would you go?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No,to old, but my son did without being drafted.
> 
> Now if a war was to come to our shores like Red Dawn or something well, I'm in old fart or not.
> 
> -Geaux
Click to expand...

And if your son is killed in Afghanistan, what will you say he died for?


----------



## MikeK

SFC Ollie said:


> sambino510 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Personally, I wouldn't go, mainly just because I don't believe in violence as a means of solving a problem, at least not in the long term. No matter who the enemy is, us killing them is more likely to give them more reason to want to kill us back, not to make them stop. It might temporarily beat them down into submission, but if we ever want lasting peace in this world it isn't going to come at gunpoint.
> 
> I know people aren't big fans of moral relativism, but I think it is kind of hard to determine right from wrong in these situations. In my opinion, killing is killing, no matter what the motivation or supposed justification. They say they're right and we're wrong,and we say the opposite. We're all equal human beings more-or-less, so who can judge which side is correct?
> 
> In a way, I do wish there was still a draft though. At least that way it would anger people enough who dislike war so that these conflicts couldn't continue. Instead, the volunteer system allows these wars to be pushed to the back of peoples' minds due to minimal media coverage and little to no personal sacrifice by the average American. Wars simply don't hit home anymore, and I think they should if we are going to go out of our way to wage them.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You haven't a clue.
Click to expand...

A clue as to what?


----------



## 9thIDdoc

JWBooth said:


> 9thIDdoc said:
> 
> 
> 
> _And how do you suppose "our boys" managed to identify these "terrorists" in Iraq and Afghanistan? Can you describe the uniforms they wear? _
> 
> If they shoot at you you kill them. It's not all that complicated.
> 
> _"And do you think it's possible "our boys," being grossly and criminally misused by a corrupt and incompetent government, have harmed a lot of people who never did a thing to deserve it and because of that have become committed enemies of the U.S. who have good cause to despise Americans and might very well become the "terrorists" of tomorrow?" _
> 
> No.
> 
> About the only difference between the ME and WWII is that we fought more honorable enemies in WWII.
> 
> 
> 
> A bunch of people show up in your neighborhood wearing strange clothes, carrying weapons, and take over. You object when they enter homes uninvited, take prisoner your friends and neighbors, plant explosives in your fields, accost you as you go about your business.
> Do you:
> A. Eat this shit sandwich
> B: Resist
> 
> Just curious.
Click to expand...


I would realize that slaughtering these peoples' women and children might have been a mistake.


----------



## 9thIDdoc

MikeK said:


> sambino510 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Personally, I wouldn't go, mainly just because I don't believe in violence as a means of solving a problem, at least not in the long term. No matter who the enemy is, us killing them is more likely to give them more reason to want to kill us back, not to make them stop. It might temporarily beat them down into submission, but if we ever want lasting peace in this world it isn't going to come at gunpoint.
> 
> I know people aren't big fans of moral relativism, but I think it is kind of hard to determine right from wrong in these situations. In my opinion, killing is killing, no matter what the motivation or supposed justification. They say they're right and we're wrong,and we say the opposite. We're all equal human beings more-or-less, so who can judge which side is correct?
> 
> In a way, I do wish there was still a draft though. At least that way it would anger people enough who dislike war so that these conflicts couldn't continue. Instead, the volunteer system allows these wars to be pushed to the back of peoples' minds due to minimal media coverage and little to no personal sacrifice by the average American. Wars simply don't hit home anymore, and I think they should if we are going to go out of our way to wage them.
> 
> 
> 
> You've got it right.  If it were not for the draft we probably would have stayed in Vietnam long enough to lose another 58,000 American lives -- for absolutely no good reason.
> 
> I was an active Vietnam protester and I can tell you that anger against the draft, which supplied that unnecessary debacle with lives to waste, was the engine that drove the resistance and forced Nixon to end it.  The reason Washington was so willing to suspend the draft was awareness that after Vietnam the draft would serve to impede further military adventures -- like the Iraq invasion.  Bush could never have invaded Iraq if the draft were still active.
Click to expand...


Do you never tire of the Communist rhetoric? Forty years later you're still trying to beg the question on Vietnam and still disrespecting those who served and those who sought to aid the South Vietnamese people.
Anger at the draft? I saw a lot more abject cowardice, fear and panic at the idea of serving the country. 
We didn't need a draft to invade Iraq. Not even close.


----------



## bianco

Draft: Would you go? 

#####

If they draft you and you refuse to go...don't they do to you basically what they, the loving govt, did to Bradley Manning?
...toss you in prison and make you wish you were dead?


----------



## bianco

Desperado said:


> 9thIDdoc said:
> 
> 
> 
> *I didn't serve in the ME* (Read. Comprehend.)
> 
> Our boys who did serve engaged and killed terrorists *who might otherwise have committed* heinous crimes against ordinary Americans. Seems to me not getting kidnapped, raped, tortured, blown up, burned alive or having your head cut off with a  dull knife is a considerable benefit.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You have one serious case of paranoia.
Click to expand...


Nah...the threats are all real...

Lee Rigby murder: Video timeline of Woolwich soldier's shocking murder - Mirror Online

Soldier Lee Rigby 'murdered, mutilated and almost decapitated' in Woolwich attack, court hears | Mail Online


----------



## bianco

9thIDdoc said:


> _Considering the nature and the purpose of our military actions in the Middle East, the imposing question is *what motivates those who volunteer to participate in it?*_
> 
> Exactly those same things that motivated your father and two brothers.
> 
> My father and his two brothers joined the army at a time when the U.S. was attacked by a nation which had formidable military resources.  Based on all I've read and what I've been told, they endured much physical suffering and mental agony to defend us.  If they hadn't made that sacrifice our Nation would have been invaded and occupied.
> 
> Bullshit. There is no evidence that Germany, Japan or Italy had any intention of invading the continental US. Germany battered the UK with bombs and rockets but was still unable to carry out the invasion they had planned. So they invaded Russia and lost.
> 
> *I regard every American who volunteered to fight the Japanese and the Germans as genuine heroes.  *
> 
> So do I. But no more so than any other soldier that has fought for our country.
> 
> _The World Trade Center was attacked by nineteen suicidal Middle Eastern shahids who represented an enemy which has absolutely no capability of invading the U.S. or effecting any aggression on this Nation other than occasional surreptitiously destructive ("terrorist") incidents implemented from within -- essentially a federal police matter._
> 
> You overlook the fact that they obviously didn't _need _ that capability to cause us great destruction and death. Or do you just not think we deserve to be protected as long as we are not invaded. Is there any doubt that they would use WMD on us given a chance? Did you miss the fact Iraq had used chemical weapons and were thought to playing with biological ones?
> 
> _* While I do not disregard the bravery of those troops who demonstrate traditional warrior virtues on the battlefields of Iraq and Afghanistan, the fact remains none of it was or is necessary or in any way productive.*  These people have volunteered and continue to volunteer to waste themselves._
> 
> Wrong. The truth is that you are willing to slander those who are fighting for you and undermine their efforts for no better reason than you are delusional enough think that your views on warfare and politics are the only correct ones.
> 
> _To learn now that the remains of these wasted Americans are being quietly dumped into landfills is in undeniable fact a symbolic statement of the reality which is contemporary American military policy_.
> 
> Why would you care when you display such disrespect yourself?



*So do I *

* Stating which is in no way disrespectful *


----------



## bianco

9thIDdoc said:


> _Considering the nature and the purpose of our military actions in the Middle East, the imposing question is *what motivates those who volunteer to participate in it?*_
> 
> Exactly those same things that motivated your father and two brothers.
> 
> My father and his two brothers joined the army at a time when the U.S. was attacked by a nation which had formidable military resources.  Based on all I've read and what I've been told, they endured much physical suffering and mental agony to defend us.  If they hadn't made that sacrifice our Nation would have been invaded and occupied.
> 
> Bullshit. There is no evidence that Germany, Japan or Italy had any intention of invading the continental US. Germany battered the UK with bombs and rockets but was still unable to carry out the invasion they had planned. So they invaded Russia and lost.
> 
> I regard every American who volunteered to fight the Japanese and the Germans as genuine heroes.
> 
> So do I. But no more so than any other soldier that has fought for our country.
> 
> _The World Trade Center was attacked by nineteen suicidal Middle Eastern shahids who represented an enemy which has absolutely no capability of invading the U.S. or effecting any aggression on this Nation other than occasional surreptitiously destructive ("terrorist") incidents implemented from within -- essentially a federal police matter._
> 
> You overlook the fact that they obviously didn't _need _ that capability to cause us great destruction and death. Or do you just not think we deserve to be protected as long as we are not invaded. Is there any doubt that they would use WMD on us given a chance? Did you miss the fact Iraq had used chemical weapons and were thought to playing with biological ones?
> 
> _ While I do not disregard the bravery of those troops who demonstrate traditional warrior virtues on the battlefields of Iraq and Afghanistan, the fact remains *none of it was or is necessary or in any way productive.*  These people have volunteered and continue to volunteer to waste themselves._
> 
> Wrong. The truth is that you are willing to slander those who are fighting for you and undermine their efforts for no better reason than you are delusional enough think that your views on warfare and politics are the only correct ones.
> 
> _To learn now that the remains of these wasted Americans are being quietly dumped into landfills is in undeniable fact a symbolic statement of the reality which is contemporary American military policy_.
> 
> Why would you care when you display such disrespect yourself?




Stating this;



> _ While I do not disregard the bravery of those troops who demonstrate traditional warrior virtues on the battlefields of Iraq and Afghanistan, the fact remains *none of it was or is necessary or in any way productive.*_



Is in no way disrespectful.
In no way.

Were any WMDs found in Iraq?
No.

*One can support the troops, while at the same time bashing up the govt policy that sees them deployed to useless and stoopid wars...Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan but three. *

Germany and Japan were always going to get around to attacking America eventually.


----------



## SFC Ollie

MikeK said:


> sambino510 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Personally, I wouldn't go, mainly just because I don't believe in violence as a means of solving a problem, at least not in the long term. No matter who the enemy is, us killing them is more likely to give them more reason to want to kill us back, not to make them stop. It might temporarily beat them down into submission, but if we ever want lasting peace in this world it isn't going to come at gunpoint.
> 
> I know people aren't big fans of moral relativism, but I think it is kind of hard to determine right from wrong in these situations. In my opinion, killing is killing, no matter what the motivation or supposed justification. They say they're right and we're wrong,and we say the opposite. We're all equal human beings more-or-less, so who can judge which side is correct?
> 
> In a way, I do wish there was still a draft though. At least that way it would anger people enough who dislike war so that these conflicts couldn't continue. Instead, the volunteer system allows these wars to be pushed to the back of peoples' minds due to minimal media coverage and little to no personal sacrifice by the average American. Wars simply don't hit home anymore, and I think they should if we are going to go out of our way to wage them.
> 
> 
> 
> You've got it right.  If it were not for the draft we probably would have stayed in Vietnam long enough to lose another 58,000 American lives -- for absolutely no good reason.
> 
> I was an active Vietnam protester and I can tell you that anger against the draft, which supplied that unnecessary debacle with lives to waste, was the engine that drove the resistance and forced Nixon to end it.  The reason Washington was so willing to suspend the draft was awareness that after Vietnam the draft would serve to impede further military adventures -- like the Iraq invasion.  Bush could never have invaded Iraq if the draft were still active.
Click to expand...


Yet several on the left talked about reinstating it.


----------



## SFC Ollie

MikeK said:


> SFC Ollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sambino510 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Personally, I wouldn't go, mainly just because I don't believe in violence as a means of solving a problem, at least not in the long term. No matter who the enemy is, us killing them is more likely to give them more reason to want to kill us back, not to make them stop. It might temporarily beat them down into submission, but if we ever want lasting peace in this world it isn't going to come at gunpoint.
> 
> I know people aren't big fans of moral relativism, but I think it is kind of hard to determine right from wrong in these situations. In my opinion, killing is killing, no matter what the motivation or supposed justification. They say they're right and we're wrong,and we say the opposite. We're all equal human beings more-or-less, so who can judge which side is correct?
> 
> In a way, I do wish there was still a draft though. At least that way it would anger people enough who dislike war so that these conflicts couldn't continue. Instead, the volunteer system allows these wars to be pushed to the back of peoples' minds due to minimal media coverage and little to no personal sacrifice by the average American. Wars simply don't hit home anymore, and I think they should if we are going to go out of our way to wage them.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You haven't a clue.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> A clue as to what?
Click to expand...


I wished i had time right now to answer that.... I'll get back to it later.....


----------



## SFC Ollie

bianco said:


> 9thIDdoc said:
> 
> 
> 
> _Considering the nature and the purpose of our military actions in the Middle East, the imposing question is *what motivates those who volunteer to participate in it?*_
> 
> Exactly those same things that motivated your father and two brothers.
> 
> My father and his two brothers joined the army at a time when the U.S. was attacked by a nation which had formidable military resources.  Based on all I've read and what I've been told, they endured much physical suffering and mental agony to defend us.  If they hadn't made that sacrifice our Nation would have been invaded and occupied.
> 
> Bullshit. There is no evidence that Germany, Japan or Italy had any intention of invading the continental US. Germany battered the UK with bombs and rockets but was still unable to carry out the invasion they had planned. So they invaded Russia and lost.
> 
> I regard every American who volunteered to fight the Japanese and the Germans as genuine heroes.
> 
> So do I. But no more so than any other soldier that has fought for our country.
> 
> _The World Trade Center was attacked by nineteen suicidal Middle Eastern shahids who represented an enemy which has absolutely no capability of invading the U.S. or effecting any aggression on this Nation other than occasional surreptitiously destructive ("terrorist") incidents implemented from within -- essentially a federal police matter._
> 
> You overlook the fact that they obviously didn't _need _ that capability to cause us great destruction and death. Or do you just not think we deserve to be protected as long as we are not invaded. Is there any doubt that they would use WMD on us given a chance? Did you miss the fact Iraq had used chemical weapons and were thought to playing with biological ones?
> 
> _ While I do not disregard the bravery of those troops who demonstrate traditional warrior virtues on the battlefields of Iraq and Afghanistan, the fact remains *none of it was or is necessary or in any way productive.*  These people have volunteered and continue to volunteer to waste themselves._
> 
> Wrong. The truth is that you are willing to slander those who are fighting for you and undermine their efforts for no better reason than you are delusional enough think that your views on warfare and politics are the only correct ones.
> 
> _To learn now that the remains of these wasted Americans are being quietly dumped into landfills is in undeniable fact a symbolic statement of the reality which is contemporary American military policy_.
> 
> Why would you care when you display such disrespect yourself?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Stating this;
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _ While I do not disregard the bravery of those troops who demonstrate traditional warrior virtues on the battlefields of Iraq and Afghanistan, the fact remains *none of it was or is necessary or in any way productive.*_
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Is in no way disrespectful.
> In no way.
> 
> Were any WMDs found in Iraq?
> No.
> 
> *One can support the troops, while at the same time bashing up the govt policy that sees them deployed to useless and stoopid wars...Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan but three. *
> 
> Germany and Japan were always going to get around to attacking America eventually.
Click to expand...


Read and comprehend the Duelfer Report.


----------



## MikeK

9thIDdoc said:


> Do you never tire of the Communist rhetoric?


I doubt you have the vaguest idea of what communism is and I'm quite sure you couldn't define it without the aid of a dictionary or Google.  



> Forty years later you're still trying to beg the question on Vietnam and still disrespecting those who served and those who sought to aid the South Vietnamese people.


First, our government had no business fraudulently sacrificing the lives and limbs of our sons and brothers in the cause of aiding the South Vietnamese.  In spite of what you might be brainwashed to believe, we are not the world's police force.  I lost a beloved cousin in Vietnam and there was no good reason for forcing him to go there and be killed.  The civil war in Vietnam was no more a concern of ours than was our Civil War the concern of the South Vietnamese.  



> Anger at the draft? I saw a lot more abject cowardice, fear and panic at the idea of serving the country.


I've known quite a few decorated Vietnam veterans who would debate that with you.  And if you still believe your service in Vietnam was serving your country I'd like to know how that worked.  What did the North Vietnamese ever do to the U.S.?  And what _could_ they do to us?  



> We didn't need a draft to invade Iraq. Not even close.


If the draft had been active and the sons of millions of ordinary Americans would be placed in harm's way by that wholly unjustifiable act of criminal aggression you may rest assured the Congress would not have permitted Bush to slip that crime past the voters.  Because he was in command of what fundamentally is a mercenary Army, rather than a conscripted Peoples' Army, that elitist fop bastard was able to do what he wanted with them.  They weren't drafted -- they volunteered to place themselves at the disposal of that corporatist sonofabitch.


----------



## bianco

SFC Ollie said:


> Read and comprehend the Duelfer Report.



I will.

Japan had already attacked America with those balloon bombs.

May 5, 1945: Japanese Balloon Bomb Kills 6 in Oregon | This Day In Tech | Wired.com



> *May 5, 1945: Japanese Balloon Bomb Kills 6 in Oregon *
> 
> Made of rubberized silk or paper, each balloon was about 33 feet in diameter. Barometer-operated valves released hydrogen if the balloon gained too much altitude or dropped sandbags if it flew too low.
> 
> In all, the Japanese released an estimated 9,000 fire balloons. At least 342 reached the United States. Some drifted as far as Nebraska. Some were shot down.
> 
> Some caused minor damage when they landed, but no injuries. One hit a power line and temporarily blacked out the nuclear-weapons plant at Hanford, Washington.
> 
> But the only known casualties from the 9,000 balllons  and the only combat deaths from any cause on the U.S. mainland  were the five kids and their Sunday school teacher going to a picnic.



#####

Next they were likely to be filled with biological weapons from Japan's Unit 731.

Thank God Japan was nuked.


----------



## 9thIDdoc

_"I doubt you have the vaguest idea of what communism is and I'm quite sure you couldn't define it without the aid of a dictionary or Google"_

I know more about communism than I want or need to. And the same is true of communist rhetoric.

_"First, our government had no business fraudulently sacrificing the lives and limbs..."_

If you wish to make such claims provide some proof otherwise all you're doing is talking shit. Your inability to understand something may well be simple failure on your part. 

_"The civil war in Vietnam was no more a concern of ours than was our Civil War the concern of the South Vietnamese."_

It was in fact a war of aggression and occupation waged by N. Vietnam heavily supported by the USSR and Red China. And there is far far too much historical fact for any one to continue the "civil war" meme without laughter. 

_"I've known quite a few decorated Vietnam veterans who would debate that with you."_


I don't believe you.

_"And if you still believe your service in Vietnam was serving your country I'd like to know how that worked. What did the North Vietnamese ever do to the U.S.? And what could they do to us?"_ 

First and foremost (in my POV) is that they tried to kill me (I'm American) and they did manage to kill or wound friends (also American) of mine. They also attacked an allied nation. Much like the Germans attacked France and the UK during WWII. I find being shot at objectionable.

_"If the draft had been active and the sons of millions of ordinary Americans would be placed in harm's way by that wholly unjustifiable act of criminal aggression"_

Our invasions of Iraq were not only justifiable but necessary and supported by the majority of the American people and Congress.

A conscripted army is a slave army. Slavery is evil and nasty.


----------



## MikeK

SFC Ollie said:


> MikeK said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sambino510 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Personally, I wouldn't go, mainly just because I don't believe in violence as a means of solving a problem, at least not in the long term. No matter who the enemy is, us killing them is more likely to give them more reason to want to kill us back, not to make them stop. It might temporarily beat them down into submission, but if we ever want lasting peace in this world it isn't going to come at gunpoint.
> 
> I know people aren't big fans of moral relativism, but I think it is kind of hard to determine right from wrong in these situations. In my opinion, killing is killing, no matter what the motivation or supposed justification. They say they're right and we're wrong,and we say the opposite. We're all equal human beings more-or-less, so who can judge which side is correct?
> 
> In a way, I do wish there was still a draft though. At least that way it would anger people enough who dislike war so that these conflicts couldn't continue. Instead, the volunteer system allows these wars to be pushed to the back of peoples' minds due to minimal media coverage and little to no personal sacrifice by the average American. Wars simply don't hit home anymore, and I think they should if we are going to go out of our way to wage them.
> 
> 
> 
> You've got it right.  If it were not for the draft we probably would have stayed in Vietnam long enough to lose another 58,000 American lives -- for absolutely no good reason.
> 
> I was an active Vietnam protester and I can tell you that anger against the draft, which supplied that unnecessary debacle with lives to waste, was the engine that drove the resistance and forced Nixon to end it.  The reason Washington was so willing to suspend the draft was awareness that after Vietnam the draft would serve to impede further military adventures -- like the Iraq invasion.  Bush could never have invaded Iraq if the draft were still active.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yet several on the left talked about reinstating it.
Click to expand...

There were many on both sides of the political divide who had the good sense to realize how beneficial the draft is to America.  The important thing is it is conducted fairly, such as via public lottery, and with careful scrutiny of exclusions such as Rush Limbaugh's (easily removed) pilonidal cyst.


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## SFC Ollie

From an article dated 7 years ago:



> At least nine members of Congress have sons or daughters who have served in Iraq, according to the U.S. Senate Library. A tenth, Sen. John McCain, faces the possibility that his youngest son, Jimmy, will go there this year.



Lawmakers have loved ones in combat zone - USATODAY.com

In case you are wondering that's, nearly 2% More than most non government groups can claim.

I wonder how many have had kids there now that another 7 years has passed by?


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## SFC Ollie

MikeK said:


> SFC Ollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sambino510 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Personally, I wouldn't go, mainly just because I don't believe in violence as a means of solving a problem, at least not in the long term. No matter who the enemy is, us killing them is more likely to give them more reason to want to kill us back, not to make them stop. It might temporarily beat them down into submission,* but if we ever want lasting peace in this world it isn't going to come at gunpoint.*
> 
> I know people aren't big fans of moral relativism, but I think it is kind of hard to determine right from wrong in these situations. In my opinion, killing is killing, no matter what the motivation or supposed justification. They say they're right and we're wrong,and we say the opposite. We're all equal human beings more-or-less, so who can judge which side is correct?
> 
> In a way, I do wish there was still a draft though. At least that way it would anger people enough who dislike war so that these conflicts couldn't continue. Instead, the volunteer system allows these wars to be pushed to the back of peoples' minds due to minimal media coverage and little to no personal sacrifice by the average American. Wars simply don't hit home anymore, and I think they should if we are going to go out of our way to wage them.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You haven't a clue.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> A clue as to what?
Click to expand...


Tell it to Germany and japan.

Which side is correct? Gee we had 3000+ innocent civilians killed which started the war in Afghanistan, I wonder which side was right?

No one dislikes war more than the soldier who has been there, thus again you haven't a clue and probably never will.


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## MikeK

SFC Ollie said:


> MikeK said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SFC Ollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> You haven't a clue.
> 
> 
> 
> A clue as to what?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Tell it to Germany and japan.
Click to expand...

That's a topic which could occupy another very long thread.  In keeping with the topic at hand the fact remains our Nation was attacked and we were threatened by two enemy forces which together had the ability to defeat our military and occupy us.  



> Which side is correct? Gee we had 3000+ innocent civilians killed which started the war in Afghanistan, I wonder which side was right?


We were attacked by fifteen Saudis, one Lebanese, one Egyptian, and two from the UAE.  None from Iraq and none from Afghanistan.  Yet there is no shortage of Americans who believe our aggressions in Iraq and Afghanistan are justified.  



> No one dislikes war more than the soldier who has been there, thus again you haven't a clue and probably never will.


If that were true, how do you account for so many who think being "there" is something to be proud of -- in spite of the fact they had no moral right to be "there" killing and oppressing people who never did a goddam thing to them or to their country?  

I dislike war just as much as does any soldier who has been "there" and has the good sense to realize there was no good reason for what he endured.  I've never been hit by a car but I'm quite aware it's worth all the effort it takes to avoid.


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## SFC Ollie

MikeK said:


> SFC Ollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MikeK said:
> 
> 
> 
> A clue as to what?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tell it to Germany and japan.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> That's a topic which could occupy another very long thread.  In keeping with the topic at hand the fact remains our Nation was attacked and we were threatened by two enemy forces which together had the ability to defeat our military and occupy us.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Which side is correct? Gee we had 3000+ innocent civilians killed which started the war in Afghanistan, I wonder which side was right?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> We were attacked by fifteen Saudis, one Lebanese, one Egyptian, and two from the UAE.  None from Iraq and none from Afghanistan.  Yet there is no shortage of Americans who believe our aggressions in Iraq and Afghanistan are justified.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No one dislikes war more than the soldier who has been there, thus again you haven't a clue and probably never will.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> If that were true, how do you account for so many who think being "there" is something to be proud of -- in spite of the fact they had no moral right to be "there" killing and oppressing people who never did a goddam thing to them or to their country?
> 
> I dislike war just as much as does any soldier who has been "there" and has the good sense to realize there was no good reason for what he endured.  I've never been hit by a car but I'm quite aware it's worth all the effort it takes to avoid.
Click to expand...


You know you asswipes that ignore the facts just piss me off. Fact is we were attacked by a group who had trained and whose leader was being protected by the Government in Afghanistan, Doesn't matter if they were Mexican or Canadian the guy we wanted was in Afghanistan.

And unless you've been out there in the fight you have nothing to fucking say about how any soldier feels.


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## Desperado

SFC Ollie said:


> You know you asswipes that ignore the facts just piss me off. Fact is we were attacked by a group who had trained and *whose leader was being protected by the Government in Afghanistan,* Doesn't matter if they were Mexican or Canadian the guy we wanted was in Afghanistan.
> 
> And unless you've been out there in the fight you have nothing to fucking say about how any soldier feels.



Now where exactly did the USA find Osma?
Hint: It was not in Iraq or Afghanistan.
 I remember Osma was being protected by the Government of our ally Pakistan,  when he met his maker with the help of the US Military.


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## SFC Ollie

Where was he on 9-11-01 dumbass. I've already stated many times that once we lost track of him at Bora Bora we should have pulled out because he was either dead in one of the caves or in Pakistan.


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## Moonglow

PredFan said:


> Richard Nixon, a Republican, ended the Vietnam war, started by a democrat, when I was 17. I was prepared to go. I used to tell people back then that if I got drafted I would go.
> 
> I'd go still but I doubt they need a 58 year old.



The French were defeated by the Vietnamese in 1956, that's when we got involved, who was president then?


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## Desperado

SFC Ollie said:


> Where was he on 9-11-01 dumbass. I've already stated many times that once we lost track of him at Bora Bora we should have pulled out because he was either dead in one of the caves or in Pakistan.


 Doesn't matter where he was on 9-11-01, it only matters where he was when the US executed him,


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## MikeK

SFC Ollie said:


> You know you asswipes that ignore the facts just piss me off. Fact is we were attacked by a group who had trained and whose leader was being protected by the Government in Afghanistan, Doesn't matter if they were Mexican or Canadian the guy we wanted was in Afghanistan.


Which is why we attacked Iraq and lost over five thousand troopers, suffered thousands more maimed and ruined, and wasted almost five trillion dollars.  Right?  



> And unless you've been out there in the fight you have nothing to fucking say about how any soldier feels.


The reason I would not go sky-diving is if my parachute didn't open I would have all the way down to answer to myself about -- _why!   What the hell am I doing here?_

So if ever I was _"... out there in the fight"_ you may rest assured I would be asking myself why I'm there.  Hopefully I would be as able as my father was to know I was there to protect my family and my Nation against an enemy who was capable of taking them from me.  But if instead I was some dimwit who allowed myself to be placed into armed combat against persons who never did a thing to my Country and who lacked the capability to do so, and whose country I was invading for no lawful and legitimate reason, I would have a problem because I am unable to bullshit myself into believing I'm some kind of heroic Rambo simply because I've allowed myself to be mis-used and placed in harm's way by conniving, self-serving politicians.  I am much too confident of my masculinity to need that kind of synthetic self-adulation.

So, as I've told you before, Ollie, if you served in World War Two you have my sincere gratitude and admiration.  Otherwise you have my sympathy -- but only if you were drafted.  If you enlisted you don't even have that.  Because you did it to yourself and if you think there was a good reason for doing it you are jerking yourself off.


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## Spoonman

History said:


> So if the country had a draft* today* to fight in the Middle East, would you go?



to support a country that is trying to change my constitutional right to even own a gun?  and they want me to take up arms for them?   I would not fight for Obama


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## Spoonman

Moonglow said:


> PredFan said:
> 
> 
> 
> Richard Nixon, a Republican, ended the Vietnam war, started by a democrat, when I was 17. I was prepared to go. I used to tell people back then that if I got drafted I would go.
> 
> I'd go still but I doubt they need a 58 year old.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The French were defeated by the Vietnamese in 1956, that's when we got involved, who was president then?
Click to expand...


involved?  not to war with.  by your rational we are currently at war with Libya, Syria, Egypt and a host of other locations.   good god do libs ever try to spin the shit out of everything


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## regent

Studies were made at the end of WWII as to why men fight, and the number one answer was decided to be they fight for their comrades about them. During WWII I also believe that one GI out of 18 were in combat, The other seventeen supported the combat GI. The seventeen were essential for support and were to be admired, As the war continued in very very very rare instances one of those seventeen might find themselves suddenly in an infantry squad.


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## Drake_Roberts

Spoonman said:


> History said:
> 
> 
> 
> So if the country had a draft* today* to fight in the Middle East, would you go?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> to support a country that is trying to change my constitutional right to even own a gun?  and they want me to take up arms for them?   I would not fight for Obama
Click to expand...


Against?


----------



## bianco

Godboy said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> bianco said:
> 
> 
> 
> There are conventional bombs and conventional missiles, drones, subs etc. .
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You can't win a war by just lobbing bombs from afar, you stupid fucking shit.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> We could actually. If we didnt care about civilian casualties, we could carpet bomb every city and town until nothing was left standing. Im not saying we SHOULD do that, but I am saying we COULD.
Click to expand...


Which was the only way 'Taliban strongholds' were ever going to be destroyed and the war won.
It wasn't done, and the drug trade wasn't stopped...so the US and its Allies lost.
Big waste of good Christian Western lives.

All's fair in love and war...the fire-bombing of Tokyo, nuking of Japan...and bombing of Germany including Dresden.
Allies won the war.

Did AQ and the Taliban care one iota about the Christian Western etc civilians on the hijacked planes and in the Towers?


"Bombs away!"  "Drones away!"  "Missiles away!"


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## Drake_Roberts

bianco said:


> Godboy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> You can't win a war by just lobbing bombs from afar, you stupid fucking shit.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We could actually. If we didnt care about civilian casualties, we could carpet bomb every city and town until nothing was left standing. Im not saying we SHOULD do that, but I am saying we COULD.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Which was the only way 'Taliban strongholds' were ever going to be destroyed and the war won.
> It wasn't done, and the drug trade wasn't stopped...so the US and its Allies lost.
> Big waste of good Christian Western lives.
Click to expand...


Attacking Taliban Strongholds and killing some of them while occupying the Muslim cities does not make things better, it makes them worse. So unless you intend trying to kill every Muslim that ever breathed, good luck with eradicating Muslim extremists,


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