# A gun made for women?   European women don't bother watching, you aren't allowed to protect yourselves anyway....



## 2aguy (Sep 10, 2022)

Here we go......notice...this woman is a civilian, she isn't a SEAL, a cop, a SWAT team member....and for you Europeans, she is not a member of the SAS, or GSG 9, or the Jaegers.......yet she can own, carry and use a gun to protect herself from violent criminals....and she can teach others how to use guns.....


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## johngaltshrugged (Sep 10, 2022)

I'll never understand the left's pathological fear of a tool.
They are terrified of them & progject their fears onto us by claiming our NOT being afraid of a gun makes us cowards.

You can only take so much proglogic before you get dizzy with a migraine


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## Uncensored2008 (Sep 10, 2022)

johngaltshrugged said:


> I'll never understand the left's pathological fear of a tool.
> They are terrified of them & progject their fears onto us by claiming our NOT being afraid of a gun makes us cowards.
> 
> You can only take so much proglogic before you get dizzy with a migraine


A woman with a gun will shoot a would be rapist. Leftists have good reason to be afraid.


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## deannalw (Sep 10, 2022)

Interesting video. Right now, my favorite handgun is my Springfield xd. It fits me perfectly, is easy to clean and I can shoot a flea in the eyeball with it.


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## C_Clayton_Jones (Sep 10, 2022)

2aguy said:


> Here we go......notice...this woman is a civilian, she isn't a SEAL, a cop, a SWAT team member....and for you Europeans, she is not a member of the SAS, or GSG 9, or the Jaegers.......yet she can own, carry and use a gun to protect herself from violent criminals....and she can teach others how to use guns.....


This is a lie.

Women in Europe are not prohibited from protecting themselves.


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## deannalw (Sep 10, 2022)

C_Clayton_Jones said:


> This is a lie.
> 
> Women in Europe are not prohibited from protecting themselves.




You're right.

It's perfectly legal for them to throw cans of tuna at their head. 

I'd rather have a gun, though.


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## night_son (Sep 10, 2022)

2aguy said:


> Here we go......notice...this woman is a civilian, she isn't a SEAL, a cop, a SWAT team member....and for you Europeans, she is not a member of the SAS, or GSG 9, or the Jaegers.......yet she can own, carry and use a gun to protect herself from violent criminals....and she can teach others how to use guns.....



There was a gun in this video? I must have been focused on something else . . .


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## night_son (Sep 10, 2022)

johngaltshrugged said:


> I'll never understand the left's pathological fear of a tool.
> They are terrified of them & progject their fears onto us by claiming our NOT being afraid of a gun makes us cowards.
> 
> You can only take so much proglogic before you get dizzy with a migraine



Many on the left fear firearms, even while depending on men who carry firearms to defend them. Seems like a terminal case of cowardice to me.


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## progressive hunter (Sep 10, 2022)

C_Clayton_Jones said:


> This is a lie.
> 
> Women in Europe are not prohibited from protecting themselves.


your premise is a lie,, he said protect herself with a gun not just protect herself,,
no person in europe is allowed to protect themselves with a gun, in fact if you put that on an application for gun ownership you get rejected,,


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## bodecea (Sep 10, 2022)

2aguy said:


> Here we go......notice...this woman is a civilian, she isn't a SEAL, a cop, a SWAT team member....and for you Europeans, she is not a member of the SAS, or GSG 9, or the Jaegers.......yet she can own, carry and use a gun to protect herself from violent criminals....and she can teach others how to use guns.....


How many mass shootings in Europe compared to the US this year?


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## Manonthestreet (Sep 10, 2022)

SIG365


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## okfine (Sep 10, 2022)

2aguy said:


> Here we go......notice...this woman is a civilian, she isn't a SEAL, a cop, a SWAT team member....and for you Europeans, she is not a member of the SAS, or GSG 9, or the Jaegers.......yet she can own, carry and use a gun to protect herself from violent criminals....and she can teach others how to use guns.....


Ever see a gun made for a dumbass?


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## Monk-Eye (Sep 10, 2022)

*" Knee Jerk Reactions Neglect Anticipation Of Unforeseen Consequences "

* Policy For Mass Shooters Against Unknown Victims Should Be Automatic Suicide Even If By Police Fire **


bodecea said:


> How many mass shootings in Europe compared to the US this year?


Mass shootings although tragic are sensational for news outlets and gun control fanatics but they are not statistically significant relative with overall homicides .



			https://www.usconcealedcarry.com/resources/gun-facts-and-fiction/mass-shootings/
		








** Poster Children Of Moral Outrage Needed for Retarded Fucks **

[Verse 7]  Advertising signs that con  You into thinking you're the one  That can do what's never been done  That can win what's never been won  Meantime, life outside goes on  All around you



** Seems Like Queers Would Rather Be Armed When Torch Bearers And Pitch Fork Vigilantes Show Up **









						Texas drag brunch defended by armed counter-protesters
					

According to reactions on social media, many felt it was about time that right-wing threats & intimidation were responded to in kind



					www.losangelesblade.com
				



_This time, however, counter-protestors showed up, too. Armed with AR-15 style rifles, they outnumbered the anti-LGBTQ+ activists, according to Steven Monacelli, a journalist with Rolling Stone and Texas Observer, who was there to witness the heated exchanges and document some of the conflict on Twitter. _


** Armed Society Disarmed By Despots **






						Left Wing Mental Degenerates Undermining Reality Of Gangs
					

" Left Wing Mental Degenerates Undermining Reality Of Gangs "  * Anti-Racist Racist Socialists On The Hisbah Move *  The mental degenerate left wants to be able to promote its open borders invasion  , its evil white supremacist conspiracies and mass shooting gun control fanaticism by binding the...



					www.usmessageboard.com
				



_The sensationalism of the next mass shooting will be the trigger for fake public outrage orchestrated by the left wing private despots to help ensure that its national socialists are able to usher in the dream of equal despair for all dictated by the " wise king " beauracracy , unopposed ._


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## 2aguy (Sep 10, 2022)

C_Clayton_Jones said:


> This is a lie.
> 
> Women in Europe are not prohibited from protecting themselves.




Yeah.....they can try to beat a full grown, aggressive male criminal with their bare hands.....you doofus.


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## Uncensored2008 (Sep 10, 2022)

deannalw said:


> Interesting video. Right now, my favorite handgun is my Springfield xd. It fits me perfectly, is easy to clean and I can shoot a flea in the eyeball with it.


I've got to say my FAVORITE handgun to actually shoot is my 1943 Smith & Wesson .22 revolver. Knock the stinger off a bee at 50 yards. May not be great defense, but astoundingly accurate


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## bigrebnc1775 (Sep 10, 2022)

C_Clayton_Jones said:


> This is a lie.
> 
> Women in Europe are not prohibited from protecting themselves.


This is a lie all of Europe are prohibited from defending themselves  hell Canada can't use a gun to defend their life.


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## 2aguy (Sep 10, 2022)

bodecea said:


> How many mass shootings in Europe compared to the US this year?




Doesn't matter......in the U.S. in 2021?  As comparison....shall we be honest, looking at the actual numbers?

Over 350 million Americans.

Over 600 million guns in private hands.

Over 21.5 million Americans legally carry their guns in public for self defense........

Number of mass public shootings?

6

6 individuals out of over 350 million people.

How many killed total?

43

How many people die falling off of ladders each year?

300

How many people die from deer killing them each year?

200

How many die from lawn mower accidents each year?

Between 90-100


So asking how many mass public shootings we have compared to Britain only shows how few we actually have.......

*Now......a far more relevant question?

How many mass public shootings did Britain have before they banned guns?

1 every 10 years.

How many mass public shootings has Britain had since they banned guns....?

About 1 every 10 years......

So....dipshit....do you see how guns are not the issue in mass public shootings?*


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## Vagabond63 (Sep 15, 2022)

“How many mass public shootings did Britain have before they banned guns?
1 every 10 years.
How many mass public shootings has Britain had since they banned guns....?
About 1 every 10 years......” 2aguy

The above is a huge distortion of the truth. The Truth is, that we have only banned handguns and semi-automatic military/police style rifles. That is a fact.

What 2aguy fails miserably in his assertion, is that because of mass public shootings using these weapons there were two, (not counting the sectarian guerilla/terrorist war in Northern Ireland), such incidents. 

Since the ban on these weapons there has been *no mass public shooting in the UK using either of these types of weapons. *


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## M14 Shooter (Sep 15, 2022)

2aguy said:


> Here we go......notice...this woman is a civilian, she isn't a SEAL, a cop, a SWAT team member....and for you Europeans, she is not a member of the SAS, or GSG 9, or the Jaegers.......yet she can own, carry and use a gun to protect herself from violent criminals....and she can teach others how to use guns.....


Gun control is mean to to prevent this - anti-gun trogs absolutely hate the idea that people - especially women - have the means to defend themselves.


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## M14 Shooter (Sep 15, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> The above is a huge distortion of the truth. The Truth is, that we have only banned handguns and semi-automatic military/police style rifles. That is a fact.
> Since the ban on these weapons there has been *no mass public shooting in the UK using either of these types of weapons. *


Why hasn't there been any mass shootings involving firearms other than the ones you people are afraid of?


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## 2aguy (Sep 15, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> “How many mass public shootings did Britain have before they banned guns?
> 1 every 10 years.
> How many mass public shootings has Britain had since they banned guns....?
> About 1 every 10 years......” 2aguy
> ...




There have been mass public shootings in Britain since the ban and confiscation...you are lying......

It doesn't matter what type of gun is used, you doofus....you had 1 mass public shooting about every 10 years and have had several since the ban and confiscation........

Banning handguns didn't stop them....but it does make your women, and elderly, as well as normal Brits less safe when they are violently attacked by your criminals.


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## Vagabond63 (Sep 15, 2022)

Oh, here's an alternative take on women and self defence, basically practice situational awareness and make decisions that avoid situations where they are forced to use hand guns designed for women.


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## Vagabond63 (Sep 15, 2022)

M14 Shooter said:


> Why hasn't there been any mass shootings involving firearms other than the ones you people are afraid of?


Say that again, in English. The above is nonsensical.


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## Vagabond63 (Sep 15, 2022)

2aguy said:


> There have been mass public shootings in Britain since the ban and confiscation...you are lying......


Prove it. We banned handguns and semi-automatic military style weapons in 1996-7, show me a "mass public shooting" involving such weapons since 1996-7


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## Vagabond63 (Sep 15, 2022)

2aguy said:


> It doesn't matter what type of gun is used, you doofus....you had 1 mass public shooting about every 10 years and have had several since the ban and confiscation........


Yes it does, we've not banned rifles or shotguns, what weapons have been used in mass killings since 1996-7?


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## M14 Shooter (Sep 15, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> Say that again, in English. The above is nonsensical.



Ok....
You said
"Since the ban on these weapons there has been *no mass public shooting in the UK using either of these types of weapons.*
I ask:
Why hasn't there been any mass shootings involving firearms other than those weapons --  you know, the weapons you people are afraid of?    
Well?


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## Vagabond63 (Sep 15, 2022)

2aguy said:


> ...but it does make your women, and elderly, as well as normal Brits less safe when they are violently attacked by your criminals.


Really? Prove it. We would argue our society is much safer without firearms being readily available to every Tom, Dick or Harry that wants one. Our criminals use firearms to defend themselves from other criminals who have firearms and to intimidate rivals who don't have firearms. Very, very, rarely do private citizens ever get involved. If they do, this normally creates a massive police manhunt, which tends not to end well for the criminal. Basically we don't need guns to protect ourselves in the UK.


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## Uncensored2008 (Sep 15, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> Yes it does, we've not banned rifles or shotguns, what weapons have been used in mass killings since 1996-7?


{
In the year to 31 March 2020 there were 83 shooting incidents reported to Merseyside Police.

As the pandemic clamped down on movement, the number dropped to 42 between April 2020 and March 2021.
This was followed by 39 the next year - which was a 21-year low, according to Labour's police and crime commissioner for Merseyside Emily Spurrell.
Last year, Merseyside Police launched a new specialist team to tackle drugs and firearms.
There have been 27 shootings, or "discharge incidents" in police jargon in just five months since March this year, suggesting the rate is increasing compared to the year before.}









						Liverpool shootings: Are UK gun crimes on the rise again?
					

There have been seven killings in Liverpool and London since July, with shootings rising in Merseyside.



					www.bbc.com
				




Gosh, looks like you're lying.


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## M14 Shooter (Sep 15, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> We would argue our society is much safer without firearms being readily available to every Tom, Dick or Harry that wants one.


Really? Prove it.


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## Vagabond63 (Sep 15, 2022)

M14 Shooter said:


> Ok....
> You said
> "Since the ban on these weapons there has been *no mass public shooting in the UK using either of these types of weapons.*
> I ask:
> ...


Nope, still babble. I've not said there hasn't been any mass shootings involving firearms other than those weapons we banned. There have been incidents using weapons we did not ban. That's the point. Does that make it any clearer for you?


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## M14 Shooter (Sep 15, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> I've not said there hasn't been any mass shootings involving firearms other than those weapons we banned. There have been incidents using weapons we did not ban.


Obvious questions here:
- How many mass shootings with those weapons?
- Why haven't you banned -those- weapons as well?
- What good does it do to ban certain kinds of firearms when people simply use other kinds firearms to commit mass shootings?


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## Vagabond63 (Sep 15, 2022)

Uncensored2008 said:


> {
> In the year to 31 March 2020 there were 83 shooting incidents reported to Merseyside Police.
> 
> As the pandemic clamped down on movement, the number dropped to 42 between April 2020 and March 2021.
> ...


Ah, so we're back to criminal on criminal shootings, but according to 2aguy, these incidents don't count. Talk to him about it, because if they do count, our annual total of such incidents probably equates to a typical day in America. Oh, and we were talking about mass shootings, do try to pay attention.


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## Vagabond63 (Sep 15, 2022)

M14 Shooter said:


> Really? Prove it.


Prove otherwise.


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## Vagabond63 (Sep 15, 2022)

M14 Shooter said:


> How many mass shootings with those weapons?


Have a chat with 2aguy, or Google it, or go back through all the threads that this topic has come up, your choice


M14 Shooter said:


> Why haven't you banned -those- weapons as well?


Good question, ask our Conservative governments


M14 Shooter said:


> What good does it do to ban certain kinds of firearms when people simply use other kinds firearms to commit mass shootings?


See above.


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## Vagabond63 (Sep 15, 2022)

2aguy said:


> How many people die falling off of ladders each year?
> 
> 300
> 
> ...





2aguy said:


> How many people die falling off of ladders each year?
> 
> 300
> 
> ...


I love this, with those statistics Americans shouldn't be allowed anything as dangerous as a firearm, if they can't climb ladders, avoid deer, or even use lawn mowers safely!


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## M14 Shooter (Sep 15, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> Have a chat with 2aguy, or Google it, or go back through all the threads that this topic has come up, your choice


Your claim, onus is on you to support it.


Vagabond63 said:


> Good question, ask our Conservative governments


Isn't that -your- job?
Or do you believe those "other weapons" do not need to be banned?
if so, why?
I mean, what good does it do to ban certain kinds of firearms when people simply use other kinds firearms to commit mass shootings?


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## M14 Shooter (Sep 15, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> Prove otherwise.


Your claim, onus is on you to support it.


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## Uncensored2008 (Sep 15, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> Ah, so we're back to criminal on criminal shootings, but according to 2aguy, these incidents don't count. Talk to him about it, because if they do count, our annual total of such incidents probably equates to a typical day in America. Oh, and we were talking about mass shootings, do try to pay attention.


Are you claiming that criminals don't follow laws?

But of course the article isn't criminal on criminal;

{The horrifying killing of nine-year-old Olivia Pratt-Korbel was the third death involving a gun in or around Liverpool this month.}

Unless you're saying 9 year olds are criminals?

I'll say this, I feel safer walking the streets of Compton alone at night than I do the streets of Birmingham. And statistically I AM safer in Compton. The chance of being mugged or assaulted in England at astoundingly high.





__





						Crime in Birmingham
					

Information about crime in Birmingham, United Kingdom. Shows how much people think the problem in their community are property crimes (home broken, car theft, etc.), violent crimes (being mugged or robbed, being attacked or insulted), corruption and other crimes.




					www.numbeo.com
				




The UK has a lower murder rate than the USA, but a vastly higher rate of assault and robbery.


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## 2aguy (Sep 15, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> Oh, here's an alternative take on women and self defence, basically practice situational awareness and make decisions that avoid situations where they are forced to use hand guns designed for women.



Yeah...until you are in your home when they break in......or when you are the the bus station, trains station after your 2nd shift job.....Tim Larkin is great, what you don't say about him is he also supports using guns....you doofus...


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## 2aguy (Sep 15, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> Really? Prove it. We would argue our society is much safer without firearms being readily available to every Tom, Dick or Harry that wants one. Our criminals use firearms to defend themselves from other criminals who have firearms and to intimidate rivals who don't have firearms. Very, very, rarely do private citizens ever get involved. If they do, this normally creates a massive police manhunt, which tends not to end well for the criminal. Basically we don't need guns to protect ourselves in the UK.




Your society watched as the other European countries murdered 15 million innocent men, women and children....after they first took away their guns, telling them at the time that this would make them safer.....guns taken away starting in the 1920s, mass murder of 15 million human beings began in the beginning of the 1930s.....

You doofus.....

If you take all of the gun murders in the United States...... the majority of which are not innocent human beings, but criminals engaged in crime........ adding all of the gun murders for our entire 246 year history, we do not come close to the 15 million you Europeans murdered through your governments.......

You have to explain to us how you trust that your governments will never commit mass murder and genocide in the future.....please, explain how you can promise that....


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## 2aguy (Sep 15, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> Ah, so we're back to criminal on criminal shootings, but according to 2aguy, these incidents don't count. Talk to him about it, because if they do count, our annual total of such incidents probably equates to a typical day in America. Oh, and we were talking about mass shootings, do try to pay attention.




No....they don't count as mass public shootings...but what you do is you tell us that in Britain, the majority of gun violence is criminal on criminal gun violence....then you ignore the fact that criminal on criminal violence is the same here in the U.S........the majority of all gun murder is criminals murdering other criminals, and the family, friends, and associates of criminals......

Meanwhile, normal Americans, with their legal guns, stop rapes, robberies, murders, beatings and stabbings .......about 1.2 million times a year according to the Centers for Disease Control Research....or 1.5 million times a year according to the Department of Justice Research....or 2.5 million times according to Criminologist Gary Kleck.......you can also look at the other 15 studies on this.....


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## 2aguy (Sep 15, 2022)

M14 Shooter said:


> Your claim, onus is on you to support it.
> 
> Isn't that -your- job?
> Or do you believe those "other weapons" do not need to be banned?
> ...




Thank you.........


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## 2aguy (Sep 15, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> Oh, here's an alternative take on women and self defence, basically practice situational awareness and make decisions that avoid situations where they are forced to use hand guns designed for women.




Do you understand that you are really a doofus....?

I have been a big fan of Tim Larking for quite a while now....I have two of his books on my kindle, and actually signed up for his video series........

You should really watch all of his videos, you would learn something about violent criminals and how they behave, and how some of his actual students have been violently attacked by them.....and what some of them actually did to those criminals...

The story where the guy was in the girls bedroom and what she did to him is pretty amazing........and she did it after only attending a seminar that her father made her take..........

You have no idea who Tim Larkin is, or what he teaches.....obviously from that post you posted........

Did you know that Tim Larkin was banned from England?  That when he went there to teach his material the British government pulled his permission?

In the video he posts the letter from the British Home secretary...you doofus...

He teaches to never, ever engage in physical combat......unless your life is on the line.....he has multiple videos on this topic....you doofus.....

Then, he states that if your life is on the line....if it has gone from anti-social behavior, to actual A-Social Violence.....you do not "damage," the opponent, you inflict "Injury," against them, over and over again......and he explains both definitions, and in the various videos discusses the damage he is talking about.......

If you are squeamish...which you likely are, it will be a tough watch for you...

Here is the vide where he talks about getting barred from England.....


Here he talks about "When violence is the answer," Something you don't believe in...









						When Violence Is the Answer: Self-Defense Strategies with Tim Larkin and Lewis Howes
					

Download podcast episodes a week early! http://www.lewishowes.com/podThank you for Watching this powerful video withTim Larkin!New Interviews, and Inspiratio...




					www.youtube.com
				




*Here...he talks about real world violence....a must watch.......especially for you Vagabond...*



Here........he talks about killers vs. normal people...you need to watch this...



Good video about MMA fighters in actual fights.....vs. violent criminals......


*You wouldn't like what he actually teaches Vagabond.....and your country banned him....*









						'Kill-or-be-killed' self-defense guru Tim Larkin banned from UK
					






					www.nbcnews.com


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## Vagabond63 (Sep 16, 2022)

Uncensored2008 said:


> Are you claiming that criminals don't follow laws?
> 
> But of course the article isn't criminal on criminal;
> 
> ...


ROFL! Numbeo! This is typical, take a small sample and extrapolate. The current population of Birmingham is around 1,144,900 people, Numbeo took the opinions of 188 contributors and turned them into percentages in order to reflect the views of 1,144,900 people. 

Wow, Asimov was right.


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## Deplorable Yankee (Sep 16, 2022)

2aguy said:


> Here we go......notice...this woman is a civilian, she isn't a SEAL, a cop, a SWAT team member....and for you Europeans, she is not a member of the SAS, or GSG 9, or the Jaegers.......yet she can own, carry and use a gun to protect herself from violent criminals....and she can teach others how to use guns.....


Walther and sigs make great guns for "women" ...
A sig p238 is a good one


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## Deplorable Yankee (Sep 16, 2022)




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## Vagabond63 (Sep 16, 2022)

2aguy said:


> I have been a big fan of Tim Larking for quite a while now...


So have I.


2aguy said:


> You should really watch all of his videos,


I've watched several, but not all by any means.


2aguy said:


> You have no idea who Tim Larkin is, or what he teaches.....obviously from that post you posted........


Erm, yes I do


2aguy said:


> Did you know that Tim Larkin was banned from England? That when he went there to teach his material the British government pulled his permission?


Yes, thanks to our Right wing Conservative Governments.


2aguy said:


> He teaches to never, ever engage in physical combat......unless your life is on the line.....he has multiple videos on this topic....


Exactly, he teaches self and situational awareness, to do everything you can to not become a victim. However if it comes right down to it, you must be ready to use whatever force is necessary to survive. At no point in any of his lectures that I've seen does he ever say, "hey don't worry about any of it, just buy a gun." which is precisely the agenda you are trying to push day in and day out on this board.


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## Vagabond63 (Sep 16, 2022)

2aguy said:


> Meanwhile, normal Americans, with their legal guns, stop rapes, robberies, murders, beatings and stabbings .......about 1.2 million times a year according to the Centers for Disease Control Research....or 1.5 million times a year according to the Department of Justice Research....or 2.5 million times according to Criminologist Gary Kleck.......you can also look at the other 15 studies on this.....


Still waiting for the link to the actual report by the CDC where it states the 1.2 million figure. 

As for the rest, extrapolations based on opinion polls are not facts.


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## Vagabond63 (Sep 16, 2022)

M14 Shooter said:


> Really? Prove it.


Firearm related deaths in USA so far this year 37,040, UK 162. 

In contrast to the U.S. and Latin America, gun deaths are extremely rare in countries like Japan, the United Kingdom, Norway, and Australia. These countries have implemented incentives or passed legislation to decrease the number of firearms in circulation. For example, in July 2021, Australia implemented a permanent gun amnesty program, in which unregistered firearms could be anonymously surrendered at police stations.

Japan boasts a population of more than 127 million people, yet finished 2019 with a gun death rate of only .02 per 100,000 people. One major factor in this success is that Japan has some of the strictest gun control laws in the world. For Japanese citizens to purchase a gun, they must attend an all-day class, pass a written exam, and complete a shooting range test, scoring at least 95% accuracy. Candidates will also receive a mental health evaluation, performed at a hospital, and will have a comprehensive background check done by the government. Only shotguns and rifles can be purchased. The class and exam must be retaken every three years. Gun Deaths by Country 2022


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## Vagabond63 (Sep 16, 2022)

Uncensored2008 said:


> But of course the article isn't criminal on criminal;
> 
> {The horrifying killing of nine-year-old Olivia Pratt-Korbel was the third death involving a gun in or around Liverpool this month.}
> 
> Unless you're saying 9 year olds are criminals?


There's a whole thread on this event on this board, do try to keep up. Talk to 2aguy if you can't find it.


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## M14 Shooter (Sep 16, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> Firearm related deaths in USA so far this year 37,040, UK 162.


Why do you think this proves your claim?


Vagabond63 said:


> In contrast to the U.S. and Latin America, gun deaths are extremely rare in countries like Japan, the United Kingdom, Norway, and Australia. These countries have implemented incentives or passed legislation to decrease the number of firearms in circulation. For example, in July 2021, Australia implemented a permanent gun amnesty program, in which unregistered firearms could be anonymously surrendered at police stations.


Please demonstrate the necessary relationship between the gun laws in those countries and their lower rates of gun-related violence.
(Note:  This is where you usually run away from the conversation, so I accept your concession in advance)


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## M14 Shooter (Sep 16, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> Have a chat with 2aguy, or Google it, or go back through all the threads that this topic has come up, your choice


Your claim, onus is on you to support it.


Vagabond63 said:


> Good question, ask our Conservative governments


Isn't that -your- job?
Or do you believe those "other weapons" do not need to be banned?
if so, why?
I mean, what good does it do to ban certain kinds of firearms when people simply use other kinds firearms to commit mass shootings?


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## M14 Shooter (Sep 16, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> Prove otherwise.


Your claim, onus is on you to support it.


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## Vagabond63 (Sep 16, 2022)

M14 Shooter said:


> Why do you think this proves your claim?


Why do you think it doesn't? Disprove it if you can.


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## Vagabond63 (Sep 16, 2022)

M14 Shooter said:


> Please demonstrate the necessary relationship between the gun laws in those countries and their lower rates of gun-related violence.
> (Note: This is where you usually run away from the conversation, so I accept your concession in advance)


This is a meaningless sentence, say that again in English.


----------



## M14 Shooter (Sep 16, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> This is a meaningless sentence, say that again in English.


Please demonstrate the necessary relationship between the gun laws in those countries and their lower rates of gun-related violence.
To dumb that down:
Prove the cause you cite created the effect you claim.


----------



## M14 Shooter (Sep 16, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> Why do you think it doesn't? Disprove it if you can.


It's --your-- claim - onus is on you to back it up.
And it looks like you know you cannot.


----------



## Uncensored2008 (Sep 16, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> ROFL! Numbeo! This is typical, take a small sample and extrapolate. The current population of Birmingham is around 1,144,900 people, Numbeo took the opinions of 188 contributors and turned them into percentages in order to reflect the views of 1,144,900 people.
> 
> Wow, Asimov was right.


Well there you go, the low brow dolt ignores the facts and attacks the source.

You're a fucking clown.


----------



## Uncensored2008 (Sep 16, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> There's a whole thread on this event on this board, do try to keep up. Talk to 2aguy if you can't find it.


Irrelevant.

You lied that the gun violence in the UK is criminal on criminal - it isn't.

You've outlawed guns in your country - leaving it a violent hell hole, FAR more violent than the USA. That you might live through the beating and rapes that are so common is of little comfort.


----------



## M14 Shooter (Sep 16, 2022)

Uncensored2008 said:


> You've outlawed guns in your country - leaving it a violent hell hole, FAR more violent than the USA. That you might live through the beating and rapes that are so common is of little comfort.


They believe it is better to be raped and beaten than to defend yourself with a gun.
You just can't argue against that level of insanity.


----------



## 2aguy (Sep 16, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> Still waiting for the link to the actual report by the CDC where it states the 1.2 million figure.
> 
> As for the rest, extrapolations based on opinion polls are not facts.



You have been shown the entire story....they began research to refute Gary Kleck's work, as did the Department of Justice....this was during Clinton's time in office and they wanted to push gun control.....so they desperately needed to refute Kleck.....the CDC started the research and found that yes, 1.2 million times a year was looking like the outcome....so they simply stopped the research....and didn't bring attention to the work they had already done....if fact, Kleck only found it a few years ago when he was researching another topic........

At the same time, the Department of Justice also conducted the same research, also using professional, anti-gun researchers, in order to push gun control....and in their study, they found 1.5 million times a year......

Then you have Kleck's work and the 15 other studies on the topic.....


----------



## 2aguy (Sep 16, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> Firearm related deaths in USA so far this year 37,040, UK 162.
> 
> In contrast to the U.S. and Latin America, gun deaths are extremely rare in countries like Japan, the United Kingdom, Norway, and Australia. These countries have implemented incentives or passed legislation to decrease the number of firearms in circulation. For example, in July 2021, Australia implemented a permanent gun amnesty program, in which unregistered firearms could be anonymously surrendered at police stations.
> 
> Japan boasts a population of more than 127 million people, yet finished 2019 with a gun death rate of only .02 per 100,000 people. One major factor in this success is that Japan has some of the strictest gun control laws in the world. For Japanese citizens to purchase a gun, they must attend an all-day class, pass a written exam, and complete a shooting range test, scoring at least 95% accuracy. Candidates will also receive a mental health evaluation, performed at a hospital, and will have a comprehensive background check done by the government. Only shotguns and rifles can be purchased. The class and exam must be retaken every three years. Gun Deaths by Country 2022




And yet gun crime is increasing in the U.K., Australia and you decided to leave out Sweden...which is next to Norway........you don't want to bring attention to the fact that Sweden just had an election this week and one of the major issues was the increase in gun crime in that country......it toppled the government and replaced it........because the gangs there are using guns and grenades as if they are going out of style....

Australia keeps having amnesty programs because their criminals keep gettin and using guns......

Japan?

You could give every Japanese Citizen a gun and they would not have an increase in gun crime.......the Japanese people are conformist, law abiding, and they live in an almost police state....

When you are arrested in Japan....you go to prison...for a long time...

The problem in the U.S.?  Not guns....democrats...the democrats refuse to lock up violent criminals....and they release them over and over again...

It isn't Normal Americans who are shooting people...it is the criminals in democrat party controlled cities who are captured by police, and then released with No-Cash Bail.....or released from prison by democrat party judges and politicians...

*This is what happens in Japan if you are merely caught carrying a gun....*



Japan’s gun control laws so strict the Yakuza turn to toy pistols



*Ryo Fujiwara, long-time writer on yakuza affairs and author of the book, The Three Yamaguchi-Gumi, says that the punishment for using a gun in a gang war or in a crime is now so heavy that most yakuza avoid their use at all – unless it is for an assassination.*

*“In a hit, whoever fires the gun, or is made to take responsibility for firing the gun, has to pretty much be willing to go to jail for the rest of their life. That’s a big decision. The repercussions are big, too. No one wants to claim responsibility for such acts – the gang office might actually get shut-down.”



The gang typically also has to support the family of the hit-man while he is in prison, which is also a financial burden for the organization.





Japan’s Firearms and Swords Control Laws make it a crime to illegally possess a gun, with a punishment of jail time of up to 10 years.



Illegal possession more than one gun, the penalty goes up to 15 years in prison. If you own a gun and matching ammunition, that’s another charge and a heavier penalty. The most severe penalty is for the act of discharging a gun in a train, on a bus, or most public spaces, which can result in a life sentence.



-----

A low-ranking member of the Kobe-Yamaguchi-gumi put it this way: “All of the smart guys got rid of their guns a long-time ago. The penalties are way too high. You get life in prison if you just fire a gun. That’s not fun.”



--A police officer in Osaka’s Organized Crime Control Division, speaking on background noted, “In the de facto world of law enforcement, when a yakuza fires a gun, we’re almost always going to charge them with attempted murder—which is a very heavy crime and serious time in ‘the pig-house’ (jail). Guns kill people, so if you use one, intent to kill is right there. Toy guns? Not so much.”

He added, “Unless you’re an old gangster and wanting to stay in jail until you die because you got nowhere else to go, you don’t use a gun. The crime isn’t worth the time in jail.”*





*In the U.S....how democrats deal with actual gun criminals....



Davis was originally arrested and charged with carrying a concealed weapon without a license in Detroit, and the judge assigned to his case ordered that Davis wear a GPS monitoring device as a condition of his bond.*



* There’s nothing unusual about that, but what’s raising eyebrows, particularly among local police, is what happened after prosecutors repeatedly told the judge that Davis was violating the terms of his bond, including allegedly taking part in a drive-by shooting.

-----





So, by the time Davis appeared before the judge in late May, he’d already had five alleged bond violations and two arrests for separate incidents, including the drive-by shooting. 





The judge could have ordered Davis’ bond revoked and remanded him into custody until his trial, but instead Hathaway took a much different approach: continuing his bond but ordering the removal of the GPS monitoring device that had alerted authorities to his alleged lawbreaking.

----

As you might have guessed, that didn’t stop Davis’ alleged criminal activity. About a month later police, who were now paying attention to Davis’ social media feeds, watched on Instagram as Davis held a gun and allegedly threatened violence against other individuals.*



*http://[URL='https://bearingarms.co...e-study-in-not-enforcing-existing-laws-n60124[/URL]



The two illegal alien mass public shooters given 15,000 dollars bond...



Brietbart....



On Wednesday, as Breitbart News reported, the Richmond Police Department announced the arrests of Guatemalan nationals 52-year-old illegal alien Julio Alvardo Dubon and 38-year-old illegal alien Rolman Balacarcel Ac for allegedly plotting a mass shooting at the city’s July 4th celebration.*

*---

The American citizen who thwarted the mass shooting plot called police after he heard a man discussing a plan to “shoot up” Richmond’s annual Fourth of July celebration.*
*


That is when police raided Dubon’s residence to find two rifles, a handgun, and 223 rounds of ammunition. Dubon was subsequently charged with being in possession of a firearm as an alien to the U.S.

---
*
*Dubon has been booked into the Richmond City Jail on a $15,000 bail. Though police said Ac was also booked, his records do not appear in the city jail’s records.



Illegal Aliens Plotted July 4th Mass Shooting, Thwarted by 'Hero Citizen'



https://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2022/07/4th-of-july-shootout-averted.php*





Also.......


----------



## Mac-7 (Sep 16, 2022)

2aguy said:


> Here we go......notice...this woman is a civilian, she isn't a SEAL, a cop, a SWAT team member....and for you Europeans, she is not a member of the SAS, or GSG 9, or the Jaegers.......yet she can own, carry and use a gun to protect herself from violent criminals....and she can teach others how to use guns.....


Most women are better off with a hammerless small frame revolver in .38 special

Nothing to do or think about

Just point and shoot


----------



## 2aguy (Sep 16, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> Firearm related deaths in USA so far this year 37,040, UK 162.
> 
> In contrast to the U.S. and Latin America, gun deaths are extremely rare in countries like Japan, the United Kingdom, Norway, and Australia. These countries have implemented incentives or passed legislation to decrease the number of firearms in circulation. For example, in July 2021, Australia implemented a permanent gun amnesty program, in which unregistered firearms could be anonymously surrendered at police stations.
> 
> Japan boasts a population of more than 127 million people, yet finished 2019 with a gun death rate of only .02 per 100,000 people. One major factor in this success is that Japan has some of the strictest gun control laws in the world. For Japanese citizens to purchase a gun, they must attend an all-day class, pass a written exam, and complete a shooting range test, scoring at least 95% accuracy. Candidates will also receive a mental health evaluation, performed at a hospital, and will have a comprehensive background check done by the government. Only shotguns and rifles can be purchased. The class and exam must be retaken every three years. Gun Deaths by Country 2022




Wrong........you are doing the same dishonest bullshit that all you anti-gunners do....you are mixing in Suicides with gun murder......to falsely inflate the number.......this is why you are crap.

You need to explain to us how it is that Japan, China and South Korea have higher suicide rates than we do with their extreme gun control...first you explain that, you doofus......

And as to our gun murder....as you keep pointing out about Britain...most of the gun crime and gun murder in Britain is concentrated among your criminals........

The same exact thing is true here in the U.S........

70-80% of our gun murder, likely far higher now.....the victims are not normal Americans...they are criminals, in democrat party controlled cities, released over and over again, by democrat party judges, prosecutors and politicians....

American gun owners with their legal guns are not committing murder simply because they have guns....you idiot....

American criminals, captured by the police over and over again, with long histories of crime and violence and multiple felony convictions are released by the democrat party, in democrat party controlled cities....it is these monsters doing almost all of the shooting, and the vast majority of victims are criminals, their families, and their associates....

So in Britain and American, we have a criminal problem, not a gun problem.....


----------



## 2aguy (Sep 16, 2022)

M14 Shooter said:


> They believe it is better to be raped and beaten than to defend yourself with a gun.
> You just can't argue against that level of insanity.




They see people as disposable....that is why vagabond and the other Brits don't care if a woman is brutally raped......they simply think she can just go to the Natioinal Healthcare system and get treated.......they don't care about the beating and the rape.....they don't care about the beatings and the robberies......as long as it happens to the "other" people....they are just fine with it...


----------



## BlackSand (Sep 16, 2022)

2aguy said:


> Here we go......notice...this woman is a civilian, she isn't a SEAL, a cop, a SWAT team member....and for you Europeans, she is not a member of the SAS, or GSG 9, or the Jaegers.......yet she can own, carry and use a gun to protect herself from violent criminals....and she can teach others how to use guns.....


.

Once you get the firearm ... Then you need the holster.


.​


----------



## 2aguy (Sep 16, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> Firearm related deaths in USA so far this year 37,040, UK 162.
> 
> In contrast to the U.S. and Latin America, gun deaths are extremely rare in countries like Japan, the United Kingdom, Norway, and Australia. These countries have implemented incentives or passed legislation to decrease the number of firearms in circulation. For example, in July 2021, Australia implemented a permanent gun amnesty program, in which unregistered firearms could be anonymously surrendered at police stations.
> 
> Japan boasts a population of more than 127 million people, yet finished 2019 with a gun death rate of only .02 per 100,000 people. One major factor in this success is that Japan has some of the strictest gun control laws in the world. For Japanese citizens to purchase a gun, they must attend an all-day class, pass a written exam, and complete a shooting range test, scoring at least 95% accuracy. Candidates will also receive a mental health evaluation, performed at a hospital, and will have a comprehensive background check done by the government. Only shotguns and rifles can be purchased. The class and exam must be retaken every three years. Gun Deaths by Country 2022




And Japan?  They have a police state and a conformist, willing population.....

Japan: Gun Control and People Control

*Japan's low crime rate has almost nothing to do with gun control, and everything to do with people control. Americans, used to their own traditions of freedom, would not accept Japan's system of people controls and gun controls.*
*


Robbery in Japan is about as rare as murder. Japan's annual robbery rate is 1.8 per 100,000 inhabitants; America's is 205.4. Do the gun banners have the argument won when they point to these statistics? No, they don't. A realistic examination of Japanese culture leads to the conclusion that gun control has little, if anything, to do with Japan's low crime rates. Japan's lack of crime is more the result of the very extensive powers of the Japanese police, and the distinctive relation of the Japanese citizenry to authority. Further, none of the reasons which have made gun control succeed in Japan (in terms of disarming citizens) exist in the U.S.
*
*The Japanese criminal justice system bears more heavily on a suspect than any other system in an industrial democratic nation. One American found this out when he was arrested in Okinawa for possessing marijuana: he was interrogated for days without an attorney, and signed a confession written in Japanese that he could not read. He met his lawyer for the first time at his trial, which took 30 minutes.

Unlike in the United States, where the Miranda rule limits coercive police interrogation techniques, Japanese police and prosecutors may detain a suspect indefinitely until he confesses. (Technically, detentions are only allowed for three days, followed by ten day extensions approved by a judge, but defense attorneys rarely oppose the extension request, for fear of offending the prosecutor.) Bail is denied if it would interfere with interrogation.

Even after interrogation is completed, pretrial detention may continue on a variety of pretexts, such as preventing the defendant from destroying evidence. Criminal defense lawyers are the only people allowed to visit a detained suspect, and those meetings are strictly limited.

Partly as a result of these coercive practices, and partly as a result of the Japanese sense of shame, the confession rate is 95%.

For those few defendants who dare to go to trial, there is no jury. Since judges almost always defer to the prosecutors' judgment, the trial conviction rate for violent crime is 99.5%.


Of those convicted, 98% receive jail time.

In short, once a Japanese suspect is apprehended, the power of the prosecutor makes it very likely the suspect will go to jail. And the power of the policeman makes it quite likely that a criminal will be apprehended.

The police routinely ask "suspicious" characters to show what is in their purse or sack. In effect, the police can search almost anyone, almost anytime, because courts only rarely exclude evidence seized by the police -- even if the police acted illegally.

The most important element of police power, though, is not authority to search, but authority in the community. Like school teachers, Japanese policemen rate high in public esteem, especially in the countryside. Community leaders and role models, the police are trained in calligraphy and Haiku composition. In police per capita, Japan far outranks all other major democracies.

15,000 koban "police boxes" are located throughout the cities. Citizens go to the 24-hour-a-day boxes not only for street directions, but to complain about day-to-day problems, such as noisy neighbors, or to ask advice on how to raise children. Some of the policemen and their families live in the boxes. Police box officers clear 74.6% of all criminal cases cleared. Police box officers also spend time teaching neighborhood youth judo or calligraphy. The officers even hand- write their own newspapers, with information about crime and accidents, "stories about good deeds by children, and opinions of
residents."

The police box system contrasts sharply with the practice in America. Here, most departments adopt a policy of "stranger policing." To prevent corruption, police are frequently rotated from one neighborhood to another. But as federal judge Charles Silberman writes, "the cure is worse than the disease, for officers develop no sense of identification with their beats, hence no emotional stake in improving the quality of life there."

Thus, the U.S. citizenry does not develop a supportive relationship with the police. One poll showed that 60% of police officers believe "it is difficult to persuade people to give patrolmen the information they need."

The Japanese police do not spend all their time in the koban boxes. As the Japanese government puts it: "Home visit is one of the most important duties of officers assigned to police boxes." Making annual visits to each home in their beat, officers keep track of who lives where, and which family member to contact in case of emergency. The police also check on all gun licensees, to make sure no gun has been stolen or misused, that the gun is securely stored, and that the licensees are emotionally stable.

Gun banners might rejoice at a society where the police keep such a sharp eye on citizens' guns. But the price is that the police keep an eye on everything.

Policemen are apt to tell people reading sexually-oriented magazines to read something more worthwhile. Japan's major official year-end police report includes statistics like "Background and Motives for Girls' Sexual Misconduct." In 1985, the police determined that 37.4% of the girls had been seduced, and the rest had had sex "voluntarily." For the volunteers, 19.6% acted "out of curiosity", while for 18.1%, the motive was "liked particular boy." The year-end police report also includes sections on labor demands, and on anti-nuclear or anti-military demonstrations.

======

That is why they have a low gun crime rate, even among the criminals...*


----------



## 2aguy (Sep 16, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> Firearm related deaths in USA so far this year 37,040, UK 162.
> 
> In contrast to the U.S. and Latin America, gun deaths are extremely rare in countries like Japan, the United Kingdom, Norway, and Australia. These countries have implemented incentives or passed legislation to decrease the number of firearms in circulation. For example, in July 2021, Australia implemented a permanent gun amnesty program, in which unregistered firearms could be anonymously surrendered at police stations.
> 
> Japan boasts a population of more than 127 million people, yet finished 2019 with a gun death rate of only .02 per 100,000 people. One major factor in this success is that Japan has some of the strictest gun control laws in the world. For Japanese citizens to purchase a gun, they must attend an all-day class, pass a written exam, and complete a shooting range test, scoring at least 95% accuracy. Candidates will also receive a mental health evaluation, performed at a hospital, and will have a comprehensive background check done by the government. Only shotguns and rifles can be purchased. The class and exam must be retaken every three years. Gun Deaths by Country 2022




Australia.....?  You doofus...

*The modus operandi of the hitmen contracted to take out Hamzy associates is to sneak up on the target - often in a public place - and pepper them with bullets.*
---
OCTOBER 18, 2020 - Rafat Alameddine's former home is shot up in a drive-by shooting

OCTOBER 19, 2020 - Mejid Hamzy is shot dead in Condell Park

JANUARY 30, 2021 - Mustafa Naaman is shot dead in Hurstville in a suspected mistaken identity attack on Ibrahem Hamze

JANUARY 30, 2021 - Mejed Derbas is shot dead in Smithfield

FEBRUARY 15, 2021 - Bilal Hamze's mother Maha Hamze comes under gunfire again in another drive-by shooting at her home in Auburn

MARCH 12, 2021 - A home linked to the Alameddine family in Guildford is shot up

AUGUST 6, 2021 - Alameddine low-level associate Shady Kanj is shot in Chester Hill and found dead by police in Guildford 

AUGUST 14, 2021 - Police foil alleged gangland hit on Ibrahim Hamze when they spot stolen Mercedes in North Sydney

OCTOBER 20, 2021 - Salim and Toufik Hamze are gunned down outside their home in Guildford

NOVEMBER 10, 2021 - Drive-by shooting at Guildford home of Alameddine associate. No-one is hurt

JANUARY 6, 2022 - Brother of Bassam Hamzy, Ghassan Amoun, is shot dead at 35 years of age in a brazen daylight execution as he sat in a BMW outside an apartment building in Western Sydney.

How cops made a chilling prediction before crime boss brother killed


New article 9/1/20

Gun violence grips Victoria as deadly shootings double

*More than 14 hardened criminals are being found in possession of firearms each week as the state grapples with a rising gun culture that has led to twice as many Victorians shot dead in 2019.*
------
Anti-gangs division Detective Superintendent Peter Brigham said illegal firearms were routinely unearthed at the homes of drug traffickers and in the possession of “gangster types” chasing image and status.
----
In September, a 35-year-old Docklands man was sentenced to at least eight years' jail for heroin trafficking. As part of his plea deal, the former Iraqi national led police to a cache of weapons wrapped in plastic and hidden in a Melbourne drain. They included an SKS assault rifle and grenades.
---
And while handguns were proving to be the gun of choice among young men, high powered military-grade firearms were in demand from the city’s outlaw motorcycle gangs
======

Gun city: Young, dumb and armed

*The notion that a military-grade weapon could be in the hands of local criminals is shocking, but police have already seized at least five machine guns and assault rifles in the past 18 months. The AK-47 was not among them.*

Only a fortnight ago, law enforcement authorities announced they were hunting another seven assault rifles recently smuggled into the country. Weapons from the shipment have been used in armed robberies and drive-by shootings.

*These are just a handful of the thousands of illicit guns fuelling a wave of violent crime in the world’s most liveable city.

----*

Despite Australia’s strict gun control regime, criminals are now better armed than at any time since then-Prime Minister John Howard introduced a nationwide firearm buyback scheme in response to the 1996 Port Arthur massacre.

Shootings have become almost a weekly occurrence, with more than 125 people, mostly young men, wounded in the past five year

-----------

While the body count was higher during Melbourne’s ‘Underbelly War’ (1999-2005), more people have been seriously maimed in the recent spate of shootings and reprisals.

*Crimes associated with firearm possession have also more than doubled, driven by the easy availability of handguns, semi-automatic rifles, shotguns and, increasingly, machine guns, that are smuggled into the country or stolen from licensed owners.*

*-------------*

These weapons have been used in dozens of recent drive-by shootings of homes and businesses, as well as targeted and random attacks in parks, shopping centres and roads.

“They’re young, dumb and armed,” said one former underworld associate, who survived a shooting attempt in the western suburbs several years ago.

“It used to be that if you were involved in something bad you might have to worry about [being shot]. Now people get shot over nothing - unprovoked.”

------------

*Gun crime soars*
In this series, Fairfax Media looks at Melbourne’s gun problem and the new breed of criminals behind the escalating violence.

The investigation has found:


There have been at least 99 shootings in the past 20 months - more than one incident a week since January 2015
Known criminals were caught with firearms 755 times last year, compared to 143 times in 2011
The epicentre of the problem is a triangle between Coolaroo, Campbellfield and Glenroy in the north-west, with Cranbourne, Narre Warren and Dandenong in the south-east close behind
Criminals are using gunshot wounds to the arms and legs as warnings to pay debts
*Assault rifles and handguns are being smuggled into Australia via shipments of electronics and metal parts*
In response to the violence, it can be revealed the state government is planning to introduce new criminal offences for drive-by shootings, manufacturing of firearms with new technologies such as 3D printers, and more police powers to keep weapons out of the hands of known criminals.

============

The second part of the series....

Gun city: Gunslingers of the North West


========================
'Thousands' of illegal guns tipped to be handed over in firearms amnesty

Asked roughly how many he expected to be handed in, Mr Keenan said: "Look I certainly think the number will be in the thousands."

The Australian Crime Commission estimated in 2012 there were at least 250,000 illegal guns in Australia. But a Senate report noted last year it was impossible to estimate how many illicit weapons are out there.

*And despite Australia's strict border controls, the smuggling of high-powered military-style firearms is also a growing problem.
=======*



*A notorious bikie recently pictured partying with several high-profile Comancheros has been rushed to hospital after he was shot in the face south of Brisbane.

Kyle Leofa, 25, is recovering in Mater Hospital in a stable condition following a shooting in a car park in the Logan suburb of Underwood on Monday night.

Police were only made aware of the incident hours later when Mr Leofa showed up in hospital on Tuesday afternoon, suffering from a suspected gunshot wound.*









						Notorious Comanchero rushed to hospital after being shot in the FACE
					

The Comancheros member is recovering in Brisbane's Mater Hospital following a shooting in a carpark in the Logan suburb of Underwood




					www.dailymail.co.uk


----------



## 2aguy (Sep 16, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> Firearm related deaths in USA so far this year 37,040, UK 162.
> 
> In contrast to the U.S. and Latin America, gun deaths are extremely rare in countries like Japan, the United Kingdom, Norway, and Australia. These countries have implemented incentives or passed legislation to decrease the number of firearms in circulation. For example, in July 2021, Australia implemented a permanent gun amnesty program, in which unregistered firearms could be anonymously surrendered at police stations.
> 
> Japan boasts a population of more than 127 million people, yet finished 2019 with a gun death rate of only .02 per 100,000 people. One major factor in this success is that Japan has some of the strictest gun control laws in the world. For Japanese citizens to purchase a gun, they must attend an all-day class, pass a written exam, and complete a shooting range test, scoring at least 95% accuracy. Candidates will also receive a mental health evaluation, performed at a hospital, and will have a comprehensive background check done by the government. Only shotguns and rifles can be purchased. The class and exam must be retaken every three years. Gun Deaths by Country 2022




After the 1996 gun ban and confiscation in Australia....

Man shot near children’s tutoring centre

A man has been taken to hospital following a shooting in Melbourne’s north-west.

The man, aged in his 30s, was found with gun shot wounds to his upper body in Stention Road, Kealba around 3.15pm.

Police discovered the seriously injured man outside a tutoring centre, where dozens of children were attending weekend classes.
==========
6/5/17


‘Terror’ gunman was on parole

POLICE are investigating possible terror links to a siege in which officers gunned down one man and found another dead in Melbourne’s southeast.

A *senior law enforcement figure said the gunman was on parole for a criminal offence and rated as a low-risk figure of interest to counter-terror authorities.

The Herald Sun has revealed the gunman was Yacqub Khayre, a Somali refugee who was known to counter-terrorism police.*

Police shot and killed Khayre, a second man was found dead in the foyer of an apartment building in Brighton *and three cops sustained gunshot wounds in the bloody hostage drama.*

A male caller to the Channel 7 newsroom in Melbourne said: “This is for IS” and “this is for Al-Qaeda.” The station said a woman could be heard screaming in the background.

A Victoria Police statement confirmed police are investigating whether the incident is terrorism related.

===========

March 2016....


Number of shootings in Melbourne area continues to rise

*Three people will appear in court in Geelong after shots were fired between two moving cars on Thursday night, as the problem with gun-related violence in the Melbourne area continues to escalate.*

The shooting at Geelong and another separate incident at Frankston brings to 10 the number of shootings in the Melbourne and Geelong areas since February 2.

Three people were arrested after shots were fired between two moving cars just before 6:30pm at Norlane.
--------

4/28/16  gang shooting in Perth


No Cookies | Perth Now

tensions had since risen between the Rebels and the Coffin Cheaters, he said.


“That’s something that I cannot elaborate on further at this time,” Det Insp Fyfe said.

“We know both gangs were there.

“The offender or offenders, I do not believe they are a threat to the community in general.”

He said police were yet to identify a suspect, but were speaking with the two surviving victims.

*Det Insp Fyfe said at least eight shots were fired from two different types of guns, one of which was a semi-automatic, and one bullet went through a car in the street, so it was fortunate no innocent bystanders were hurt.
*
4/28/16 port arthur shooting with assault rifle..

Man found shot in Port Arthur

Port Arthur Police are investigating a shooting at Dewalt and W. 14th Street.  Police got the call at about 10:45 p.m. Thursday.  When they arrived on the scene they found a 29-year-old man laying outside a car that was riddled with bullets.  The man had a gunshot wound to the leg and was taken to Christus Southeast Texas St. Elizabeth in Beaumont. His injuries are not life-threatening. 

*Police say they believe the gun used was some sort of an assault rifle. There is no word on any suspects at this time. 

----------------------*
4/29/16....

'This isn't a random shooting': Man targeted in Sydney killing

A gunman is at large after a "targeted" shooting in Sydney's south-west that has left one man dead and two other people injured.

---------------------
Timeline of major crimes in Australia - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

25 January 1996 – Hillcrest murders – Peter May shot and killed his three children, his estranged wife and her parents in the Brisbane suburb of Hillcrest before killing himself.[54]

16 August 1998 – Victorian police officers Gary Silk and Rodney Miller were shot dead in an ambush by Bendali Debs and Jason Joseph Roberts in the Moorabbin Police murders.
3 August 1999 – La Trobe University shooting – Jonathan Brett Horrocks walked into the cafeteria in La Trobe university in Melbourne Victoria armed with a 38 caliber revolver handgun and opened fire killing Leon Capraro the boss and manager off the cafeteria and wounding a woman who was a student at the university.


21 October 2002 – Monash University shooting – Huan Xiang opened fire in a tutorial room, killing two and injuring five.

26 May 2002 – A Vietnamese man walked into a Vietnamese wedding reception in Cabramatta Sydney, New South Wales armed with a handgun and opened fire wounding seven people.


*21 October 2002 – Monash University shooting – Huan Xiang opened fire in a tutorial room, killing two and injuring five.*


*18 June 2007 – Melbourne CBD shooting – Christopher Wayne Hudson opened fire on three people, killing one and seriously wounding two others who intervened when Hudson was assaulting his girlfriend at a busy Melbourne intersection during the morning peak. He gave himself up to police in Wallan, Victoria on 20 June.[71]*
28 April 2011 – 2011 Hectorville siege – Donato Anthony Corbo shot dead Kobus and Annetjie Snyman and their son-in-law Luc Mombers and seriously wounded Mr Mombers' 14-year-old son Marcel and a police officer at Hectorville, South Australia before being arrested after an eight-hour stand off.
28 April 2012 – A man opened fire in a busy shopping mall in Robina on the Gold Coast shooting Bandidos bikie Jacques Teamo. A woman who was an innocent bystander was also injured from a shotgun blast to the leg. Neither of the victims died, but the incident highlighted the recent increase in gun crime across major Australian cities including Sydney, Brisbane and Adelaide.[_citation needed_]
23 May 2012 – Christopher 'Badness' Binse, a career criminal well known to police, was arrested after a 44-hour siege at an East Keilor home in Melbourne's north west. During the siege, Binse fired several shots at police and refused to co-operate with negotiators; eventually tear gas had to be used to force him out of the house, at which point he refused to put down his weapon and was then sprayed with a volley of non-lethal bullets.[_citation needed_]
8 March 2013 – Queen Street mall siege – Lee Matthew Hiller entered the shopping mall on Queen Street Brisbane Queensland armed with a revolver and threatened shoppers and staff with the revolver, causing a 90-minute siege which ended when Hiller was shot and wounded in the arm by a police officer from the elite Specialist Emergency Response Team. Hiller was then later taken to hospital and was treated for his injury; he pleaded gulity to 20 charges and was sentenced to four-and-a-half years in jail with a non-parole period of two years and three months.[_citation needed_]


15 December 2014 – 2014 Sydney hostage crisis – Seventeen people were taken hostage in a cafe in Martin Place, Sydney by Man Haron Monis. The hostage crisis was resolved in the early hours of 16 December, sixteen hours after it commenced, when armed police stormed the premises. Monis and two hostages were killed in the course of the crisis.[131]



10 September 2015 – Karin Lock was shot dead in a McDonald's restaurant in the Gold Coast by her ex-husband Stephen Lock, who then turned the gun on himself and shot himself dead.[140][141][142]



7 March 2016 - Finks bikie gang member Wayne Williams armed himself with an AK 47 rifle and shot and killed Michael Bassal and shot and wounded his brothers Terry Bassal and Mark Bassal outside an industrial building in the suburb of Ingleburn Sydney. Williams then barricaded himself inside the building and took three hostages, resulting in a siege and stand off with police. He later released the three hostages and shot himself dead. The shootings were committed as a result of a business deal gone wrong.[_citation needed_]


29 April 2016 - A gunman opened fire inside the Centro shopping centre in Bankstown, Sydney. He shot and killed convicted criminal Walid Ahmad, shot and wounded a man who was with Ahmad, and also wounded a woman who was an innocent bystander. The shooting was targeted and was committed as a result of an ongoing feud between two rival Middle Eastern organised crime gangs.[144]


7 June 2017 - 2017 Brighton siege. Somali immigrant Yacqub Khayre took a female prostitute hostage in a serviced apartment complex in the suburb of Brighton in Melbourne and then shot dead the complex clerk Nick Hao. He enticed police to the complex and made references to Islamic terrorist groups before dying in a shoot-out with police with three police officers wounded.[153]


----------



## Cardinal Carminative (Sep 16, 2022)

johngaltshrugged said:


> I'll never understand the left's pathological fear of a tool.



I think what you mean is you will never understand _probabilities._



johngaltshrugged said:


> They are terrified of them & progject their fears onto us by claiming our NOT being afraid of a gun makes us cowards.



Yeah, most of the big manly gun advocates on here are probably little wussies just waiting for the right opportunity to wet their pants.

But until that time they are BIG AND STRONG!  Able to shoot bad-guys with deadly accuracy!


----------



## Cardinal Carminative (Sep 16, 2022)

Uncensored2008 said:


> I've got to say my FAVORITE handgun to actually shoot is my 1943 Smith & Wesson .22 revolver. Knock the stinger off a bee at 50 yards. May not be great defense, but astoundingly accurate



Tell us more!  We all LOVE to hear personal gun stories!  It makes you seem more manly!  Pew pew!


----------



## Cardinal Carminative (Sep 16, 2022)

2aguy said:


> After the 1996 gun ban and confiscation in Australia....
> 
> Man shot near children’s tutoring centre
> 
> ...



What is it with you and your "wall-o-text"?  Don't you ever get bored cherry picking?


----------



## M14 Shooter (Sep 16, 2022)

Cardinal Carminative said:


> I think what you mean is you will never understand _probabilities._


Tell us:
What is the probability of a given gun in the US being used to commit murder?
How do you know?


Cardinal Carminative said:


> Yeah, most of the big manly gun advocates on here are probably little wussies just waiting for the right opportunity to wet their pants.


_-Another- _reading from your Toddler Playbook?
Sad.
But, it's the best you can do, so -- you be you!!


----------



## Uncensored2008 (Sep 16, 2022)

Cardinal Carminative said:


> Tell us more!  We all LOVE to hear personal gun stories!  It makes you seem more manly!  Pew pew!


Ohh look, another leftist shit itself  (not knowing which of the 57 genders you are today - and let's face it, neither do you) because of a .22 ASSAULT WEAPON...

Maybe you can pass a law so revolvers can only have a 3 round clip and have to be taken to a gunsmith to be reloaded?


----------



## Uncensored2008 (Sep 16, 2022)

Cardinal Carminative said:


> What is it with you and your "wall-o-text"?  Don't you ever get bored cherry picking?



What is it with you are your "I need to show the board what a fucking moron I am" schtick?


----------



## Cardinal Carminative (Sep 16, 2022)

Uncensored2008 said:


> What is it with you are your "I need to show the board what a fucking moron I am" schtick?



Don't worry, we all figured out you are a moron pretty quickly.


----------



## Cardinal Carminative (Sep 16, 2022)

Uncensored2008 said:


> Ohh look, another leftist shit itself  (not knowing which of the 57 genders you are today - and let's face it, neither do you) because of a .22 ASSAULT WEAPON...


Pew pew!


----------



## Cardinal Carminative (Sep 16, 2022)

M14 Shooter said:


> Tell us:
> What is the probability of a given gun in the US being used to commit murder?
> How do you know?
> 
> ...



LOL.  You aren't smart enough to understand the topic. I've already explained it many times on this forum.

Sorry you couldn't make it past elementary school math 1+1=2.


----------



## Uncensored2008 (Sep 16, 2022)

Cardinal Carminative said:


> Pew pew!



How clever.


----------



## Cardinal Carminative (Sep 16, 2022)

Uncensored2008 said:


> How clever.



It is isn't it?


----------



## Leo123 (Sep 16, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> Prove it. We banned handguns and semi-automatic military style weapons in 1996-7, show me a "mass public shooting" involving such weapons since 1996-7







__





						Mass Public Shootings in the US vs. Gun Controlled Europe
					

The Ethan Allen Institute is Vermont’s free-market public policy research and education organization. A “think tank.”




					www.ethanallen.org


----------



## Uncensored2008 (Sep 16, 2022)

Cardinal Carminative said:


> It is isn't it?


I'm sure it's as clever as anything you've ever posted.


----------



## BlackSand (Sep 16, 2022)

Cardinal Carminative said:


> Pew pew!


.





_._​


----------



## Cardinal Carminative (Sep 16, 2022)

BlackSand said:


> .
> 
> View attachment 697191
> 
> _._​




Aaaaahhhhh the duke.  Served in WW2 in front of a camera!  Pew!  Pew!


----------



## BlackSand (Sep 16, 2022)

Cardinal Carminative said:


> Aaaaahhhhh the duke.  Served in WW2 in front of a camera!  Pew!  Pew!


.

And still able to say more in about the same number of words than you ever will.

.​


----------



## Cardinal Carminative (Sep 16, 2022)

BlackSand said:


> .
> 
> And still able to say more in about the same number of words than you ever will.
> 
> .​



LOL.  Wow, I'm really put in my place, eh?


----------



## BlackSand (Sep 16, 2022)

Cardinal Carminative said:


> LOL.  Wow, I'm really put in my place, eh?


.

Thanks for telling me what you think I could have meant by it ...
And proving it true at the same time ... 

.​


----------



## Cardinal Carminative (Sep 16, 2022)

BlackSand said:


> .
> 
> Thanks for telling me what you think I could have meant by it ...
> And proving it true at the same time ...
> ...



You put a lot of effort to make yourself "unique" by center justifying your posts.  I'm impressed.

You are a credit to the human race.  And everyone loves you.


----------



## BlackSand (Sep 16, 2022)

Cardinal Carminative said:


> You put a lot of effort to make yourself "unique" by center justifying your posts.  I'm impressed.
> 
> You are a credit to the human race.  And everyone loves you.


.

One of the reasons I center justify ...
Is because it compels nitwits to say something about it when they have nothing else worth saying.
Works every time ... Proving my original comment was correct ... And you just cannot help yourself ...  

.​


----------



## Cardinal Carminative (Sep 16, 2022)

BlackSand said:


> .
> 
> One of the reasons I center justify ...
> Is because it compels nitwits to say something about it when they have nothing else worth saying.
> ...



Well, that certainly explains the fact that you have provided NOTHING OF VALUE in the last several posts yourself.

But I guess being a massive hypocrite tool is part of your repertoire, eh?


----------



## Cardinal Carminative (Sep 16, 2022)

Uncensored2008 said:


> I'm sure it's as clever as anything you've ever posted.



At least I make most of my own memes.  But then I'm not a lazy tool who has zero skills.


----------



## BlackSand (Sep 16, 2022)

Cardinal Carminative said:


> Well, that certainly explains the fact that you have provided NOTHING OF VALUE in the last several posts yourself.
> 
> But I guess being a massive hypocrite tool is part of your repertoire, eh?


.

I never claimed to be making any remarkable statement ... You claimed that must be what I was thinking.
You keep telling me what you are thinking with your responses, and it's rather pathetic ... Not what I am thinking.

Stop struggling ... It's only going to drown you ...  

.​


----------



## Uncensored2008 (Sep 16, 2022)

Cardinal Carminative said:


> Well, that certainly explains the fact that you have provided NOTHING OF VALUE in the last several posts yourself.
> 
> But I guess being a massive hypocrite tool is part of your repertoire, eh?


----------



## Cardinal Carminative (Sep 16, 2022)

BlackSand said:


> .
> 
> I never claimed to be making any remarkable statement ... You claimed that must be what I was thinking.
> You keep telling me what you are thinking with your responses, and it's rather pathetic ... Not what I am thinking.
> ...



You're boring me now, simp.  Sorry if I leave now and leave you to it.  Enjoy your onanism.


----------



## Uncensored2008 (Sep 16, 2022)

Cardinal Carminative said:


> You're boring me now, simp.  Sorry if I leave now and leave you to it.  Enjoy your onanism.


I don't think anyone will miss you. I mean, you contribute nothing...


----------



## BlackSand (Sep 16, 2022)

Cardinal Carminative said:


> You're boring me now, simp.  Sorry if I leave now and leave you to it.  Enjoy your onanism.


.

You don't need to tell me you are bored ... If you're bored, then shut up ...   
You see ... You cannot even express a consistent thought.

.​


----------



## M14 Shooter (Sep 16, 2022)

Cardinal Carminative said:


> LOL.  You aren't smart enough to understand the topic. I've already explained it many times on this forum.


"When you cant answer a question, tell a lie"
- Toddler Playbook, page 2
Back into the pit.


----------



## 2aguy (Sep 17, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> Firearm related deaths in USA so far this year 37,040, UK 162.
> 
> In contrast to the U.S. and Latin America, gun deaths are extremely rare in countries like Japan, the United Kingdom, Norway, and Australia. These countries have implemented incentives or passed legislation to decrease the number of firearms in circulation. For example, in July 2021, Australia implemented a permanent gun amnesty program, in which unregistered firearms could be anonymously surrendered at police stations.
> 
> Japan boasts a population of more than 127 million people, yet finished 2019 with a gun death rate of only .02 per 100,000 people. One major factor in this success is that Japan has some of the strictest gun control laws in the world. For Japanese citizens to purchase a gun, they must attend an all-day class, pass a written exam, and complete a shooting range test, scoring at least 95% accuracy. Candidates will also receive a mental health evaluation, performed at a hospital, and will have a comprehensive background check done by the government. Only shotguns and rifles can be purchased. The class and exam must be retaken every three years. Gun Deaths by Country 2022




And about Australia?


*It's a portrait of the average Australian who operates in the country's illegal firearms market, built from the findings of a 2022 Deakin University study.

In the study, criminology professor David Bright and his colleagues conducted 75 interviews with prisoners across 16 correctional facilities comprising drug traffickers, members of organised crime gangs and armed robbers.

The researchers were attempting to build a picture of the illegal gun trade in the Australian underworld.
*
*They found buying an illegal gun in Australia could be as easy as a trip to the supermarket for those in the know.*

*Figures show a deep reservoir of illegal firearms exists for criminals to tap into, with police measures only able to recover tiny fractions each year.*
*
----

Professor Bright said most of the interviewees came from backgrounds where criminal behaviour and access to guns were the norm.

----

"Some of the stories were shocking, I suppose, in the sense of the violence that some of these men had either experienced or had engaged in using guns," Professor Bright said.
*
*"The other surprising thing was just how easily some of these men were able to access firearms."*
*
---
*
*The source of illegal firearms*​*The Deakin University study identified the main ways illegal firearms were procured in Australia.

Very few criminals interviewed spoke of obtaining weapons through the internet or "dark web", with them instead preferring to rely on personal connections.

Guns are commonly obtained from friends and family, as well as from deals where a trusted party has vouched for the potential buyer.

One prisoner was given guns on the condition that he attacked certain people to earn them.

"I had to do two things to get the guns, but that was simple so I didn't really have to do much," they said.

"I just had to shoot at people … I didn't care … I was getting free guns out of it."
---
Police use firearms prohibition orders (FPOs) to ban people they believe are linked to organised crime from coming into contact with guns.
---
In 2019 — the year after FPOs were introduced — Victoria recorded a nine-year high in firearm assault deaths.
---
The latest figures from the Australian Criminal Intelligence Commission (ACIC) estimate there are at least 260,000 illegal firearms circulating in Australia.
In its report, it states the number of illegal firearms could be as high as 600,000 if estimation methods from the United Nations Office on Drugs and Crime were used.
---
It means the seizures represent just a fraction of a percentage of Australia's illegal firearms market. And for those convicted of serious gun-related crimes in SA and NSW, not much has changed.

The insular nature of the illegal firearms market has led to increased caution among criminals when trafficking and carrying firearms, but the ease of access remains the same.*


*"Honestly, the access is pretty easy. I could get access to a gun within an hour of walking out of jail … no problem at all," one prisoner said in the Deakin report.*


As Melbourne and Sydney reel from inner-city shootings, researchers look to trace where the guns are coming from


----------



## 2aguy (Sep 17, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> Firearm related deaths in USA so far this year 37,040, UK 162.
> 
> In contrast to the U.S. and Latin America, gun deaths are extremely rare in countries like Japan, the United Kingdom, Norway, and Australia. These countries have implemented incentives or passed legislation to decrease the number of firearms in circulation. For example, in July 2021, Australia implemented a permanent gun amnesty program, in which unregistered firearms could be anonymously surrendered at police stations.
> 
> Japan boasts a population of more than 127 million people, yet finished 2019 with a gun death rate of only .02 per 100,000 people. One major factor in this success is that Japan has some of the strictest gun control laws in the world. For Japanese citizens to purchase a gun, they must attend an all-day class, pass a written exam, and complete a shooting range test, scoring at least 95% accuracy. Candidates will also receive a mental health evaluation, performed at a hospital, and will have a comprehensive background check done by the government. Only shotguns and rifles can be purchased. The class and exam must be retaken every three years. Gun Deaths by Country 2022




More about Australia......

*He said some of the interviewees spoke of illegal firearm suppliers having "huge caches" of guns, including pistols, shotguns and semi-automatic rifles.*











						Buying illegal guns 'surprisingly easy' for underworld figures, research finds
					

Researchers spoke to dozens of criminal underworld figures about how they evaded Australia's strict gun laws to access illegal firearms. Most said they wanted guns for protection in the drug trade or for armed robberies.




					www.abc.net.au


----------



## Vagabond63 (Sep 17, 2022)

M14 Shooter said:


> It's --your-- claim - onus is on you to back it up.
> And it looks like you know you cannot.


I have backed it up to my satisfaction with post #53. My point is further reinforced because 2aguy launched a torrent of cherry picked cut and paste posts to try and deflect and obfuscate, like he normally does when his "argument" (and I use the term loosely, is destroyed.

Still if you look at countries with strict gun controls, their gun death figures are dramatically lower, even allowing for differences in  population to those of the USA. 

Case in point, and I only show this as an example because I live there 5-6 months of the year; Spain.

Spain has some of the most draconian gun restrictions in Europe,

"*How can I buy or sell a weapon?*
Once the license is obtained, a weapon can be purchased in an armoury, nevertheless the purchaser cannot walk away with the new weapon. The armoury will have to send it to the new owner address using a specialized transport company.

Weapons can be sold to another person with a legitimate licence. *The sale will have to be authorised and supervised by the Guardia Civil. After filling the forms and receiving the authorisations the seller will surrender the arm to the Guardia Civil. The buyer will then fetch collect it on the Guardia Civil premises.

Weapons can be lent to another person for a maximum time of 15 days provided that a form is filed at the Guardia Civil and the other person has the necessary licenses.*

Can I use a firearm for self-defence?​Security professionals during their servicewhile working are allowed to use their calibre 38 handguns within a specific mission (they are not allowed to use any other weapon) and only for self-defence.

*A private person can use a firearm only for hunting or for sport shooting. In very specific cases (people under threat or security officials) the government can authorise the use of a handgun for self-defence.

There are many cases of people with a license for sport or hunting, that after have used their weapon in a case of self-defence and then were sentenced for illegal use of firearms.  *




__





						Ownership of Firearms in Spain | Velasco Lawyers
					

The Legislation on the use and ownership of firearms in Spain is probably one of the most restrictive in Europe. This is included in the Spanish constitution under article 149.26 where it is said that the Spanish government has exclusive competence control over production, sale, possession and...




					www.velascolawyers.com
				




According to the latest comparable figures for 2022 that I've found, and I'll generously remove gun suicides as you people seem obsessed with not counting them,

Gun deaths (non suicide) in USA 12,478

Gun deaths (non suicide) Spain 37
Gun deaths (non suicide)in UK 162
Gun deaths (non suicide)in Sweden 157
Gun deaths (non suicide) in Australia 34
Gun deaths (non suicide) in Norway 2

I could go on and on, but I'm sure you can recognise a pattern here, the more access to firearms is "well regulated" (see what I did there?) the less people are killed by irresponsible, crazy, or criminal gun owners.


----------



## Vagabond63 (Sep 17, 2022)

Leo123 said:


> __
> 
> 
> 
> ...


When I said "we" I meant the UK, but obviously that went over your head.
Oh dear, I stopped reading after research by John Lott was mentioned, another exercise in statistical gymnastics, next?


----------



## Vagabond63 (Sep 17, 2022)

Uncensored2008 said:


> You're a fucking clown.


You are projecting again, but that's not surprising, I bet you voted for Trump.


Uncensored2008 said:


> You've outlawed guns in your country - leaving it a violent hell hole, FAR more violent than the USA. That you might live through the beating and rapes that are so common is of little comfort.


Well according to Travel Safe abroad.com, it appears the USA barely makes it into the safe country category, on a par with Cambodia and Equatorial Guinea with a score of 68, while the UK scores 77, while Japan, Spain and Sweden score 83. More evidence that a well regulated control of firearms makes for a safer country.


----------



## Blues Man (Sep 17, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> You are projecting again, but that's not surprising, I bet you voted for Trump.
> 
> Well according to Travel Safe abroad.com, it appears the USA barely makes it into the safe country category, on a par with Cambodia and Equatorial Guinea with a score of 68, while the UK scores 77, while Japan, Spain and Sweden score 83. More evidence that a well regulated control of firearms makes for a safer country.


How many times do you need to be told that people in the US don't care what you people in foreign countries think about our right to own guns and we never will.

Americans know that it isn't the vast majority of law abiding gun owners that are committing crimes and unlike you people Americans don't believe in taking rights away from a person who hasn't actually committed any crimes.

But I think that is something you will never understand.


----------



## Vagabond63 (Sep 17, 2022)

Blues Man said:


> How many times do you need to be told that people in the US don't care what you people in foreign countries think about our right to own guns and we never will.
> 
> Americans know that it isn't the vast majority of law abiding gun owners that are committing crimes and unlike you people Americans don't believe in taking rights away from a person who hasn't actually committed any crimes.
> 
> But I think that is something you will never understand.


Hey, 2aguy started trolling the Europe forum with his "gun control doesn't work" agenda. Don't blame me if one or more of us merely return the favour. Oh, you do know that 66% of Americans are in favour of stricter gun control, must keep you awake at nights....


----------



## 2aguy (Sep 17, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> I have backed it up to my satisfaction with post #53. My point is further reinforced because 2aguy launched a torrent of cherry picked cut and paste posts to try and deflect and obfuscate, like he normally does when his "argument" (and I use the term loosely, is destroyed.
> 
> Still if you look at countries with strict gun controls, their gun death figures are dramatically lower, even allowing for differences in  population to those of the USA.
> 
> ...



Illegal guns are flowing into all the countries of Europe, and you think of the criminals of Spain wanted to turn to violence the way Sweden’s criminals have their gun laws would stop them?
Now that is stupid thinking, something you are an expert with…..

I see you left Sweden off of your list since their just completed election this week was focused on increasing gun, and grenade violence…….by immigrant gangs……..

Again, I point out that the governments of Europe murdered 15 million people in roughly 6 years of murder……after they disarmed their peoples stating that taking their guns would make them safer….

246 years of gun murder in the U.S. doesn’t come close to that number………and the victims in our gun murder are majority criminals engaged in crime…while your victims were innocent people rounded up by their governments for murder……..

Also, you refuse to accept that normal, gun owning Americans do not use their legal guns for crime or murder….

Over 350 million Americans.

Over 600 million guns.

Over 21.5 million Americans legally carry guns  in public for self  defense.

And according to the CDC 1.2 million Americans use their legal guns to stop rapes, robberies, murders, mass public shootings, beating and stabbings.....1.5 million according to the Department of Justice, 2.5 million according to the famous Gary Kleck research.

And the individuals driving our gun crime are not of those normal people......the vast majority of gun murder in our country happens because we have a political party, the democrat party, that has made it their goal to destroy our local police forces.....forcing them to stop doing their job, forcing vast numbers of officers to quit or retire.....then, to add to the gun murder problem, democrat party prosecutors refuse to prosecute known, captured gun offenders, refuse to charge known, captured repeat gun offenders, and our judges release known, repeat gun offenders on No Cash bail, over and over again.......then, our democrat party polititicans lower the penalties for violent gun offenses, lower the penalties for repeat, gun offending felons......it is these individuals released by the democrat party who are doing the shooting and murder in the cities the democrats control....complete control.......

Then you have the fact that the countries of Europe suffered through both World War 1 and World War 2....it destroyed their countries to an extent that people just can't grasp.......While the United States proceeded to destroy our families with "The Great Society," and our violence began to increase beginning in the mid 1960s......Europe was trying to rebuild after World War 2......and now, they are finally catching up with the destruction of their families that is leading to their increase in violence.....they are just about where the U.S. was in the mid 1960s....violence is escalating throughout Europe....mainly do to their welfare states, and now with the accelerant of foreign cultures within their borders that came from war torn countries...that do not respect European culture. laws, or police....


----------



## 2aguy (Sep 17, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> I have backed it up to my satisfaction with post #53. My point is further reinforced because 2aguy launched a torrent of cherry picked cut and paste posts to try and deflect and obfuscate, like he normally does when his "argument" (and I use the term loosely, is destroyed.
> 
> Still if you look at countries with strict gun controls, their gun death figures are dramatically lower, even allowing for differences in  population to those of the USA.
> 
> ...




And the problem in Sweden.....

*"Our kids are actually dying - and it's weekly. Mother after mother, after mother is burying their kids," the heartbreaking words I heard from Maritha, a mother whose son Marley was shot dead on the streets of Stockholm. 

Maritha spends her time campaigning to end gun crime, whilst her son's killer is yet to face justice. 

When I travelled to Stockholm for my On Assignment report, Maritha would be the first person to tell me the primary factor driving Sweden's rising gun crime murders was segregation, but she would not be last. 

The headlines about serious youth violence and gang crime bring to mind cities such as London, New York and Sao Paulo. 

But, few would think of or know that Stockholm, Sweden, has become one of the worst places in Europe for Gun violence. 

http://[URL='https://www.itv.com/ne...otings-are-on-the-increase-in-swedens-suburbs[/URL]

======*
*
A suspected bomb blast which tore through an apartment block, injuring 20 people in the Swedish city of Gothenburg in the early hours of Tuesday has reignited the country's debate over rampant gang violence.

Police say that an explosive device was 'probably' placed at the scene, with sources revealing that an officer who recently testified at a major gang trial lived in the building.

Prime Minister Stefan Lofven refused to 'speculate' but it's hard to blame Swedes for rushing to conclusions: more than 200 explosions and 360 shootings reverberated through their cities in 2020.*
------

*Police chiefs blame the violence on 'criminal clans that have a completely different culture' and a 'generous welfare system and trusting society can be exploited by the criminal networks.'*

The country last year suffered its highest level of murder and manslaughter for at least 18 years, with 124 people killed in violent attacks. Eighty per cent were linked to gangs and 39 per cent involved guns.
----

Gun crime is also rampant, which BRA attributes to increased gangs, drug trafficking, and low confidence in the police.
---
In 2020, Sweden recorded more than 360 gun-involved incident, with 47 deaths and 117 people wounded.
After a long period of decline, gun violence steadily increased from the mid-2000s and continues to do so.
Shooting deaths more than doubled between 2011 and 2019 and now account for 40 per cent of violent deaths.
'The increase in gun homicide in Sweden is closely linked to criminal milieux in socially disadvantaged areas,' the report said.
Eighty per cent of shootings were linked to gangs, a significantly higher proportion than in other European countries. 

As 'bomb blast' injures 20, how Sweden is being plagued by explosions​=======​Sweden has gone from having one of the lowest rates of gun violence in Europe to having one of the highest, a report said on Wednesday, describing what one researcher called a "social contagion" of killings.​-----
The report said eight out of 10 shootings took place in a "criminal environment", with gang conflicts mentioned as one of the potential reasons for the trend. The drugs trade and low confidence towards the police in some parts of society were also cited as potential factors.
https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/social-contagion-sweden-sees-surge-deadly-shootings-2021-05-26/​​
The increase in gun homicide in Sweden is closely linked to criminal milieux in socially disadvantaged areas,” the report said, noting that shooting deaths had more than doubled between 2011 and 2019 and now accounted for 40% of violent deaths.
The report said more than eight out of 10 shootings were linked to organised crime, a significantly higher proportion than in other countries, and cited gang wars, the drugs trade and low confidence towards the police as potential factors.
The report said a decline in other forms of deadly violence, including knife crime, had masked the rise in fatal shootings.
Of 22 European countries analysed in the report, data from 2014-2017 put the country in second place, behind Croatia and ahead of Latvia. In 2018 it topped the ranking, although data from some countries was not complete that year.
-------
Last year the country of 10.3 million people recorded more than 360 incidents involving guns, including 47 deaths and 117 people injured.
Sweden is the only European country where fatal shootings have risen significantly since 2000, leaping from one of the lowest rates of gun violence on the continent to one of the highest in less than a decade, a report has found.
The report, by the Swedish national council for crime prevention (BRA), said the Scandinavian country had overtaken Italy and eastern European countries primarily because of the violent activities of organised criminal gangs.
Sweden’s gun violence rate has soared due to gangs, report says

=======
Swedish capital sees 79% spike in shootings as govt laments ‘high levels’ of violence in the Scandinavian country
Sweden recorded a surge in gun-related violence last year, according to new figures released by the government amid accusations that authorities have turned a blind eye to rising crime in the country.
Interior Minister Mikael Damberg disclosed on Monday that 47 people were killed and 117 injured in 366 shooting incidents in 2020, marking a 10 percent increase in gun violence when compared to statistics from 2019.

Damberg noted that in nearly half of the shootings registered last year, someone was injured or killed. _“We will neither accept nor get used to such high levels of violence,”_ he said.


The situation in Malmo, a city with a large migrant population that has struggled with gang violence, has improved, while crime is surging in Stockholm, the interior minister pointed out.

According to Damberg, the Swedish capital saw a staggering 79 percent increase in shootings in 2020.
-----
Most of the violent incidents occurred in 60 suburbs across the country identified by police as _“vulnerable”_ areas. Damberg said that while 5.4 percent of Sweden’s population live in such neighborhoods, they account for more than half of the nation’s fatal shootings.


===========
In the report on Tuesday, the Swedish Television, citing statistics from the Swedish Police Authority, revealed that by November, there had been as many shootings in 2020 as during the whole of 2019.
Between January 1 and December 15, there were 349 confirmed shootings in Sweden, with 111 people wounded and 44 dead as a result, Xinhua news agency quoted the report as saying.
The death toll is close to the highest number on record so far -- 45 gun-related fatalities in 2018.
Most of the shootings, or 146, occurred in the capital Stockholm, where 23 deaths and 48 injuries were reported.
According to the police, most incidents were related to organised crime and conflicts between gang members.
Criminologist Joakim Sturup told Swedish Television that a major reason behind the worrying statistics is that automatic weapons are becoming more commonly used by gang members.

Sweden witnesses spike in shooting incidents​​Shootings on the Rise in Sweden Despite Crackdown on Gang Violence, COVID-19 Epidemic​The number of shootings is increasing in Sweden, despite a national effort to curtail gang violence amid the ongoing coronavirus epidemic, SVT reported.​-------
The police also noted that the raging coronavirus epidemic, contrary to some people's expectations, has not had a major impact on crime. This is likely due to the fact that Sweden, unlike most European nations, has consistently avoided lockdowns. Even the flow of drugs has not been disturbed to any great extent, the police said. However, there is still a risk that reduced access to drugs may increase violence.
Crime gangs in Sweden: What's behind the rise in the use of explosives?

The frequent use of explosives is a relatively recent phenomenon, and criminologists told The Local that the blasts can be seen as part of an overall rise in violence and growing recklessness in these criminal networks.

Amir Rostami, a police superintendent turned sociologist with a focus on criminal gangs, told The Local that so-called 'street gangs' are showing an increased tendency towards violence, and that this violence was becoming more severe when it took place.

*"If previously they maybe fired one shot or shot someone in the legs, today it's more about AK47s, using more bullets, hand grenades and explosions that we didn't see before.* I'd say that's the biggest shift we see – they're more reckless, they don't seem to care about the consequences," Rostami said.

Fatal shootings linked to criminal gangs have increased from around four per year in the early 1990s to over 40 in 2018. And while the blasts that have taken place in Sweden have caused no fatalities so far this year, they could be seen as a sign that the gangs are unafraid of causing damage and potentially harming people.
No, Sweden, hand grenade attacks aren’t an ‘image’ problem

In 2018 there were 162 bombings reported to police, and 93 reported in the first five months of this year, 30 more than during the same period in 2018. The level of attacks is _“extreme in a country that is not at war,”_ Crime Commissioner Gunnar Appelgren told SVT last year.
-------
*The use of hand grenades is a purely Swedish phenomenon too, with no other country in Europe reporting their use on such a level, a police manager told Swedish Radio in 2016, a year after attacks first spiked.*

The grenades used almost exclusively originate in the former Yugoslavia, and are sold in Sweden for around $100 per piece. But while only three hand grenades were thrown in Kosovo between 2013 and 2014, more than 20 have been used in Sweden every year since 2015.

*More broadly, homicide has risen in Sweden, with more than 300 shootings reported last year, causing 45 deaths.* Though homicide rates had been in decline since 2002, they again began trending upwards in 2015, as did rapes and sexual assaults, which more than tripled in the last four years.

*Of course, 2015 was also the year in which Sweden flung open its doors to more than 160,000 asylum seekers, more per capita than any other European country.
-------

Dagens Nyheter pointed out that 90 percent of shooting perpetrators in Sweden are either first or second generation immigrants.*​Bomb attacks are now a normal part of Swedish life | The Spectator​
Only days after the murder of Karolin Hakim, another young woman fell victim to the gang wars. Eighteen-year-old Ndella Jack was killed as someone fired an automatic weapon into her flat in western Stockholm, probably aiming for her husband, a well-known figure in Stockholm’s gang scene. Less than a week after the murder, associates of Ms Jack’s husband were lured to a middle-class suburb of Stockholm, where they had been promised information about her killer. Shots were fired, missing the targets and hitting instead a taxi driver and a resident in a nearby building. One victim, also a university student, lost his sight in an eye after it was hit by a bullet


Holding Sweden hostage: firearm-related violence

Statistics from the NBHW shows that the number of individuals in Sweden injured by a firearm has greatly increased since 2009. Between 2012 and 2017, the number of individuals that were injured by a firearm increased by 50% [13]. Figure 3 outlines the number of individuals being treated at Swedish hospitals for firearm-related injuries.
----------
International reports [1, 2], the Swedish police [12,19], and Swedish scholars [3–6,20,21] *agree that the main cause for the increase in the rate of firearm-related violence is the presence of many gangs and criminal networks in Sweden.*

Although gangs and criminal networks have always existed in Sweden, street gangs flourished in the late 1990s and are today considered to be one of the main security problems in the country [22–24]. Swedish gangs and foremost criminal networks have not only continued to increase, but*they have also become bolder and more violent as can be seen in their use of firearms and explosive devices as their modus operandi [3,6].*

Another very important source of the increase of firearm-related violence in Sweden is the easy access to illegal firearms. Although Sweden was, for decades, shielded from firearm-related violence, mostly because of its restrictive gun laws, the easy access to illegal firearms, in addition to the many gangs and criminal networks in the country, is the main reason for the disturbing increase in the country’s rate of firearm-related violence. According to police reports, there has been a high inflow of illegal weapons into Sweden from the western Balkans [12].
==========

IN DEPTH: What’s behind the rise in gang violence across Sweden?

Honour, debts, and prestige are serving as the pretext for an increasing number of deadly shootings that challenge the ideals of equality and social harmony on which modern Sweden was built.
https://wjla.com/news/inside-your-world/stats-in-sweden-show-rise-in-violence-after-refugee-surge

Murder rose 11 percent in 2016 when compared to 2015's numbers.

Men specifically are killed by gunfire at an increased rate too - up 28 percent in that same time period.

Leading up to 2016, more than a quarter million refugees applied for asylum in Sweden, most fleeing war zones in Muslim-majority countries.​​Abstract​Recent reports state that firearm-related violence is increasing in Sweden. In order to understand the trend of firearm-related violence in Sweden with regard to rate, modus operandi (MO) and homicide typology, and for which injuries and causes of death firearm-related violence is responsible, a systematic literature review was conducted. After a thorough search in different databases, a total of 25 studies published in Swedish and English peer-review journals were identified and thus analyzed. The results show that even though knives/sharp weapons continue to be the most common MO in a violent crime in Sweden, firearm-related violence is significantly increasing in the country and foremost when discussing gang-related crimes. Moreover, firearm-related homicides and attempted homicides are increasing in the country. The studies also show that a firearm is much more lethal than a knife/sharp weapon, and that the head, thorax and the abdomen are the most lethal and serious anatomical locations in which to be hit. It is principally the three largest cities of Sweden which are affected by the many shootings in recent years. The police have severe difficulties in solving firearm-related crimes such as homicide and attempted homicide, which is why the confidence and trust for the Swedish judicial system may be decreasing among the citizens. Several reforms have taken place in Sweden in the last few years, but their effect on firearm-related violence remains to be studied.
========
4/19/18

Sweden’s violent reality is undoing a peaceful self-image

Gang-related gun murders, now mainly a phenomenon among men with immigrant backgrounds in the country’s parallel societies, increased from 4 per year in the early 1990s to around 40 last year. Because of this, Sweden has gone from being a low-crime country to having homicide rates significantly above the Western European average. Social unrest, with car torchings, attacks on first responders and even riots, is a recurring phenomenon.

*Shootings in the country have become so common that they don’t make top headlines anymore, unless they are spectacular or lead to fatalities.*

 News of attacks are quickly replaced with headlines about sports events and celebrities, as readers have become desensitized to the violence.


* A generation ago, bombings against the police and riots were extremely rare events. Today, reading about such incidents is considered part of daily life.*

3/9/18

https://www.economist.com/news/euro...edish-sense-security-why-are-young-men-sweden
IT WAS supposed to be a sneaky afternoon cigarette break.

*Then a gunman in black appeared and shot 15-year-old Robin Sinisalo in the head. *

His older brother Alejandro was shot four times. Robin died immediately on the doorstep of his home in north-west Stockholm. Alejandro was left in a wheelchair for life. Two years later, the boys’ mother, Carolina, says the police still have no leads.

Robin’s fate is increasingly common in Sweden. In 2011 only 17 people were killed by firearms. In 2017 the country had over 300 shootings, leaving 41 people dead and over 100 injured.

The violence mostly stems from street gangs running small-time drug operations in big cities such as Stockholm, the capital, Malmö and Gothenburg.

*Gang members have even used hand grenades to attack police stations.*

Between 2010 and 2015, people were killed by illegal firearms at the same rate as in southern Italy. Though Sweden is still a relatively peaceful place, this is worrying.

*Acquiring a legal gun requires strict screening, but Kalashnikovs from the Yugoslav wars are readily available on the black market. To sweeten the deal, smugglers often throw in hand grenades (there were 43 grenade incidents in Sweden last year). The victims and perpetrators of gang violence are nearly always young men.
*
But shootings with illegal guns have been rising since the mid-2000s. Most gang members are indeed first- or second-generation immigrants—72% of them, according to one report, but they tend not to be new arrivals. 



3/3/18

Sweden grenades increasing...


Hand Grenades and Gang Violence Rattle Sweden’s Middle Class

Weapons from a faraway, long-ago war are flowing into immigrant neighborhoods here, puncturing Swedes’ sense of confidence and security. 

The country’s murder rate remains low, by American standards, and violent crime is stable or dropping in many places. But gang-related assaults and shootings are becoming more frequent, and the number of neighborhoods categorized by the police as “marred by crime, social unrest and insecurity” is rising. Crime and immigration are certain to be key issues in September’s general election, alongside the traditional debates over education and health care.

Continue reading the main story


Part of the reason is that Sweden’s gang violence, long contained within low-income suburbs, has begun to spill out. In large cities, hospitals report armed confrontations in emergency rooms, and school administrators say threats and weapons have become commonplace. Last week two men from Uppsala, both in their 20s, were arrested on charges of throwing grenades at the home of a bank employee who investigates fraud cases.

An earlier jolt came with the death of Mr. Zuniga, who on Jan. 7 picked up the grenade, which the police believe had been thrown by members of a local gang targeting a rival gang or police officers.

----

Affixed to the wall in Mr. Appelgren’s office in Stockholm’s Police Headquarters is a chart showing the increase in the use of hand grenades. Until 2014 there were about a handful every year. In 2015, that number leapt: 45 grenades were seized by the police, and 10 others were detonated. The next year, 55 were seized and 35 detonated. A modest decrease occurred in 2017, when 39 were seized and 21 were detonated.

Mr. Appelgren has watched the trend apprehensively, calling it an arms race among gangs.

“I think we’re going to see, if we don’t stop it, more drive-by shootings with Kalashnikovs and hand grenades,” he said. “They throw rocks and bottles at our cars, and they trick us in an ambush. When will it happen that they ambush us with Kalashnikovs? It’s coming.”



https://www.thelocal.se/20170905/wh...ings-per-capita-than-norway-and-germany-malmo

Sweden has in recent years seen a sharp increase in the number of shootings per capita, with research suggesting that the Scandinavian country is statistically on par with southern Italy and parts of Ireland.
In 2016, some 250 shootings (random, fatal and non-fatal) were registered by police in Stockholm, Gothenburg and Malmö. In 2014, that number came to 200, indicating that Sweden is experiencing a drastic rise in such incidents.
“We don’t really know why yet, but what we can see is that the increase comes as we also see a rise in gang-related crimes and a growing number of criminal networks,” Manne Gerell, a criminologist at Malmö University, told The Local, after Swedish public radio first wrote about new research he is involved in.
One study which is yet to be published suggests that Sweden experienced four to five times as many fatal shootings per capita as Norway and Germany in 2008-2014, two otherwise similar countries. Previous figures have shown that deadly violence in general is going down in Sweden, but gun violence has gone up.
Gerell also singled out Malmö, Sweden’s third-largest city, as the one place where shootings are becoming particularly common.
“Malmö stands out,” he said, noting that the southern city is somewhat more exposed to social problems and poverty in comparison to both the capital and Gothenburg.
“Malmö is also what we describe an ‘early adopter’ when it comes to crime. It was the first of the three cities where hand grenade crimes became more commonplace and it was also the place for the establishment of Sweden’s first biker-gangs. We don’t know whether this is to do with its proximity to the European continent or not, but it could explain why the trends seem to start there.”
=========

http://sverigesradio.se/sida/artikel.aspx?programid=2054&artikel=6770170

New research says Sweden sees more deadly shootings per capita than its closest European neighbors, and the low number of gun crimes solved by police here may be part of the reason why.
Sweden experiences four to five times more fatal shootings per capita than Norway and Germany, according to the ongoing research from Malmö University, Karolinska Hospital and Stockholm University. 
The areas with the most shootings are Sweden's major cities: Stockholm, Gothenburg and Malmö. The victims as well as the perpetrators also tend to be younger than those in other the countries.


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## Blues Man (Sep 17, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> Hey, 2aguy started trolling the Europe forum with his "gun control doesn't work" agenda. Don't blame me if one or more of us merely return the favour. Oh, you do know that 66% of Americans are in favour of stricter gun control, must keep you awake at nights....


They can be in favor of anything they want but without repealing the second amendment they aren't going to get very far.

and I'll repeat

Americans know that it isn't the vast majority of law abiding gun owners that are committing crimes and unlike you people Americans don't believe in taking rights away from a person who hasn't actually committed any crimes.

But I think that is something you will never understand.


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## 2aguy (Sep 17, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> You are projecting again, but that's not surprising, I bet you voted for Trump.
> 
> Well according to Travel Safe abroad.com, it appears the USA barely makes it into the safe country category, on a par with Cambodia and Equatorial Guinea with a score of 68, while the UK scores 77, while Japan, Spain and Sweden score 83. More evidence that a well regulated control of firearms makes for a safer country.




Well regulated control of firearms....didn't save the 15 million people you guys murdered from 1939-1945............I guess that since the governments did that, you don't mind it as much, it is just when private criminals do the killing that you have a problem......


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## 2aguy (Sep 17, 2022)

Blues Man said:


> They can be in favor of anything they want but without repealing the second amendment they aren't going to get very far.
> 
> and I'll repeat
> 
> ...




Oh, they will.........the criminal gangs in Europe are becoming more and more violent...they don't care about Western culture, Western laws, and they do not fear European police......each year they become more and more violent, as the European social welfare states create more and more fatherless children, and their foreign immigrants become more and more violent as they fight for control over the drug trade in these countries....


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## 2aguy (Sep 17, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> I have backed it up to my satisfaction with post #53. My point is further reinforced because 2aguy launched a torrent of cherry picked cut and paste posts to try and deflect and obfuscate, like he normally does when his "argument" (and I use the term loosely, is destroyed.
> 
> Still if you look at countries with strict gun controls, their gun death figures are dramatically lower, even allowing for differences in  population to those of the USA.
> 
> ...




Even Finland is experiencing more violent crime....

*The number of manslaughters, murders and killings recorded by the police in Finland fluctuated from 1950 to 2020. In 2020, 86 manslaughters, murders and killings were reported. That year, the number of attempted manslaughters, murders and killings amounted to 383.*









						Finland: development of violent crimes 1950-2020 | Statista
					

The number of manslaughters, murders and killings recorded by the police in Finland fluctuated from 1950 to 2020.




					www.statista.com
				





*Reported incidents of violent crime increased in Finland during the spring, according to official statistics collected by the National Police Board of Finland.*

*More premeditated homicides and attempted homicides were committed during the first five months of 2020 than in any comparable period over the last ten years.*

*The police board’s statistics found that a total of 201 murders, homicides or attempted homicides were made during the January-to-May period this year. The previous highest figure for the period of the last 10 years was 2012, when 179 such crimes were brought to the attention of police.*










						Violent crime spike in Finland during corona spring
					

Police believe the exceptional circumstances brought about by the pandemic have led to a "crime wave".




					yle.fi
				




*New data has revealed* a considerable rise in reports of severe crimes such as manslaughter, homicide and murder attempts in 2020 compared to previous years.

Data from Statistics Finland indicates that there were 91 incidences of homicide last year—19 more than 2019. Additionally, police reported a total of 398 homicide attempts, which is 69 more cases than the previous year.
------
*Incidences of violent crime were particularly high in the first half of 2020, when the government declared a state of emergency to contain the spread of the COVID-19 virus.*

*The rise in crime can be largely attributed to the growing unemployment, increasing instances of drug abuse and general decline in mental health caused by the pandemic.*









						Finland saw sharp increase in homicide cases last year
					

New data has revealed a considerable rise in reports of severe crimes such as manslaughter, homicide and murder attempts in 2020 compared to previous years. Data from Statistics Finland indicates that there were 91 incidences of homicide last year—19 more than 2019. Additionally, police reported...




					www.helsinkitimes.fi
				




The funny thing is?   Europe is also suffering from violent crime because of the American democrat party.....hilary clinton decided that to get some foreign policy cred for her run for President, to order the destruction of the government of Libya....a country that hadn't been bothering anyone for decades.........

And that act created the largest refugee crisis since World War 2.....and sent millions of 3rd world males to flood Europe......and now those males and their children are running the drug gangs across the continent.....and they are the ones shooting at each other, and creating the chaos in European cities....


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## 2aguy (Sep 17, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> I have backed it up to my satisfaction with post #53. My point is further reinforced because 2aguy launched a torrent of cherry picked cut and paste posts to try and deflect and obfuscate, like he normally does when his "argument" (and I use the term loosely, is destroyed.
> 
> Still if you look at countries with strict gun controls, their gun death figures are dramatically lower, even allowing for differences in  population to those of the USA.
> 
> ...




Yes...keep trying to tell us that criminals in Britain aren't becoming more and more violent...and more prone to shoot at each other, not matter what silly gun laws you have......

*Shots were fired on a Merseyside street for the first time since the death of Olivia Pratt-Korbel and only hours after she was laid to rest.*









						Gun fired just hours after Olivia Pratt Korbel laid to rest
					

Bullets smashed through a window in the first shooting on Merseyside since the schoolgirl was murdered on August 22




					www.liverpoolecho.co.uk


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## M14 Shooter (Sep 17, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> I have backed it up to my satisfaction with post #53.


Sadly for you, this will not convince those with more discerning minds.


Vagabond63 said:


> Still if you look at countries with strict gun controls, their gun death figures are dramatically lower, even allowing for differences in  population to those of the USA.


Why are you still trying to pass off this _post hoc_ fallacy as proof of something?
This is where I ask you to demonstrate the necessary relationship between the gun laws in those countries and their lower rates of gun violence.
You will, as you always do, run away from the challenge.
Ready?  Go!


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## Uncensored2008 (Sep 17, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> You are projecting again, but that's not surprising, I bet you voted for Trump.
> 
> Well according to Travel Safe abroad.com, it appears the USA barely makes it into the safe country category, on a par with Cambodia and Equatorial Guinea with a score of 68, while the UK scores 77, while Japan, Spain and Sweden score 83. More evidence that a well regulated control of firearms makes for a safer country.



Well, according to Suck My Dick.com, England is a Muslim terrorist state.


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## 2aguy (Sep 17, 2022)

Uncensored2008 said:


> Well, according to Suck My Dick.com, England is a Muslim terrorist state.




Well....the muslim mayor of London did say that the city is not safe for women or girls....

Rape, beatings, robberies.......just send those poor women to the NHS and get them patched up.....no need to stop the rapes, robberies or murders....









						London streets not safe for women or girls, admits Sadiq Khan
					

‘It’s really important people like me in positions of power and influence take steps to address that’




					www.independent.co.uk


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## Uncensored2008 (Sep 17, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> Hey, 2aguy started trolling the Europe forum with his "gun control doesn't work" agenda. Don't blame me if one or more of us merely return the favour. Oh, you do know that 66% of Americans are in favour of stricter gun control, must keep you awake at nights....



You're a fucking clown.

You post irrelevant and unheard of web sites that try and claim that the USA, because we allow the peasants to be armed, isn't safe - despite the fact that actual assaults, murders, rapes, or other crimes against tourists are a FRACTION per capita of what they are in the UK.

"Oy mate, the USA isn't safe"

"Wy naught?"

"wall, bacuz people haz guns"

"But what are the chances of being a crime victim?"

"a fuck lot lower than here in London, that fer sher"

"but they haz guns, so it ain't safe."


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## Uncensored2008 (Sep 17, 2022)

2aguy said:


> Well....the muslim mayor of London did say that the city is not safe for women or girls....
> 
> Rape, beatings, robberies.......just send those poor women to the NHS and get them patched up.....no need to stop the rapes, robberies or murders....
> 
> ...



His pissant web site, that NO ONE has ever heard of, claims the USA isn't safe purely because people are allowed to own guns. It didn't bother with things like, you know, actual crime statistics.

Another bullshit trash site pulled out by a Eurotrash clown.


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## Leo123 (Sep 17, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> When I said "we" I meant the UK, but obviously that went over your head.
> Oh dear, I stopped reading after research by John Lott was mentioned, another exercise in statistical gymnastics, next?


Yeah, you wouldn’t want to read anything that disagrees with your fantasy story.


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## 2aguy (Sep 17, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> When I said "we" I meant the UK, but obviously that went over your head.
> Oh dear, I stopped reading after research by John Lott was mentioned, another exercise in statistical gymnastics, next?




Lott.....probably the foremost expert on guns used in self defense in the United States........which is why you don't want to think about him....


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## Vagabond63 (Sep 18, 2022)

M14 Shooter said:


> Sadly for you, this will not convince those with more discerning minds.
> 
> Why are you still trying to pass off this _post hoc_ fallacy as proof of something?
> This is where I ask you to demonstrate the necessary relationship between the gun laws in those countries and their lower rates of gun violence.
> ...


Well, "discerning" is one word to describe a mind, so is "closed", "biased", "bigoted", "credulous", "rigid", "pig headed", "persuadable", etc etc.

All I have done is presented evidence that well regulated firearms laws in a country result in less gun violence in that that country. Nothing at all to do with any Post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy. I believe I have demonstrated the "necessary relationship" (whatever that means) by presenting sufficient examples where this is the case. Go as far out as Mongolia and the pattern holds true (30 gun deaths), or even a Right wing semi-dictatorship like Hungary (56 gun deaths). The result is consistent. The tighter the gun control, the less risk of being shot and/or killed by firearm. QED


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## Vagabond63 (Sep 18, 2022)

Oh, since the expected torrent of trash followed my post #104, I'll repeat it here.

I have backed it up to my satisfaction with post #53. My point is further reinforced because 2aguy launched a torrent of cherry picked cut and paste posts to try and deflect and obfuscate, like he normally does when his "argument" (and I use the term loosely, is destroyed.

Still if you look at countries with strict gun controls, their gun death figures are dramatically lower, even allowing for differences in population to those of the USA.

Case in point, and I only show this as an example because I live there 5-6 months of the year; Spain.

Spain has some of the most draconian gun restrictions in Europe,

"How can I buy or sell a weapon?

Once the license is obtained, a weapon can be purchased in an armoury, nevertheless the purchaser cannot walk away with the new weapon. The armoury will have to send it to the new owner address using a specialized transport company.

Weapons can be sold to another person with a legitimate licence. The sale will have to be authorised and supervised by the Guardia Civil. After filling the forms and receiving the authorisations the seller will surrender the arm to the Guardia Civil. The buyer will then fetch collect it on the Guardia Civil premises.

Weapons can be lent to another person for a maximum time of 15 days provided that a form is filed at the Guardia Civil and the other person has the necessary licenses.
Can I use a firearm for self-defence?​Security professionals during their service while working are allowed to use their calibre 38 handguns within a specific mission (they are not allowed to use any other weapon) and only for self-defence.

A private person can use a firearm only for hunting or for sport shooting. In very specific cases (people under threat or security officials) the government can authorise the use of a handgun for self-defence.

There are many cases of people with a license for sport or hunting, that after have used their weapon in a case of self-defence and then were sentenced for illegal use of firearms.
Ownership of Firearms in Spain | Velasco Lawyers​The Legislation on the use and ownership of firearms in Spain is probably one of the most restrictive in Europe. This is included in the Spanish constitution under article 149.26 where it is said that the Spanish government has exclusive competence control over production, sale, possession and...
www.velascolawyers.com
According to the latest comparable figures for 2022 that I've found, and I'll generously remove gun suicides as you people seem obsessed with not counting them,

Gun deaths (non suicide) in USA 12,478
Gun deaths (non suicide) Spain 37
Gun deaths (non suicide)in UK 162
Gun deaths (non suicide)in Sweden 157
Gun deaths (non suicide) in Australia 34
Gun deaths (non suicide) in Norway 2

I could go on and on, but I'm sure you can recognise a pattern here, the more access to firearms is "well regulated" (see what I did there?) the less people are killed by irresponsible, crazy, or criminal gun owners.


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## Vagabond63 (Sep 18, 2022)

Leo123 said:


> Yeah, you wouldn’t want to read anything that disagrees with your fantasy story.


On the contrary, I've probably read more of Lott's drivel than most posters here, given that 2aguy thinks the sun shines out of his posterior, despite him losing every academic position he ever held, and his "research" having been thoroughly debunked.


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## Vagabond63 (Sep 18, 2022)

Uncensored2008 said:


> Well, according to Suck My Dick.com, England is a Muslim terrorist state.


Really? Care to provide a link to back up your statement?


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## Vagabond63 (Sep 18, 2022)

Uncensored2008 said:


> His pissant web site, that NO ONE has ever heard of,


Correction, it's been available in Google for at least ten years and is widely known internationally. So it would be far more accurate for you to state that  YOU have never heard of it. Here's a link, knock yourself out...






						Most Dangerous and Safest Countries Index ⋆ Travel Safe - Abroad
					

Click on the name of the country to see more information regarding its safety.




					www.travelsafe-abroad.com


----------



## braalian (Sep 18, 2022)

I approve of women arming themselves, but what exactly makes this a gun “made for women”? I think it’s just a marketing gimmick.


----------



## Vagabond63 (Sep 18, 2022)

2aguy said:


> Well....the muslim mayor of London did say that the city is not safe for women or girls....
> 
> Rape, beatings, robberies.......just send those poor women to the NHS and get them patched up.....no need to stop the rapes, robberies or murders....
> 
> ...


A year ago, true. Here's a link to what really goes on and what steps are being taken to improve things (spoiler alert, no guns involved):








						The Great Debate: Are women safe on our streets? The key facts
					

The Great Debate: Are women safe on our streets? The key facts




					news.sky.com


----------



## Uncensored2008 (Sep 18, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> Really? Care to provide a link to back up your statement?



Like you did?

I was hesitant to make up a fake site like suckmydick.com, because it might turn out to be a gay porn site and you'd spend the next 20 hours at it - which it looks like is what happened..


----------



## Uncensored2008 (Sep 18, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> Correction, it's been available in Google for at least ten years and is widely known internationally. So it would be far more accurate for you to state that  YOU have never heard of it. Here's a link, knock yourself out...
> 
> 
> 
> ...



WIDELY KNOWN  - travelocity better be scared.

So why don't you morons list the actual violent crimes against travelers? Oh my ALLAH (tip of the hat to the Caliphate that rules England)  - while England has far more violent crimes per 100,000 visitors than the USA does, those Yanks let the PEASANTS have arms? What would Henry the VIII say? (Well, now days in Londonstan he'd have to say "Allahu Akbar")


----------



## Uncensored2008 (Sep 18, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> A year ago, true. Here's a link to what really goes on and what steps are being taken to improve things (spoiler alert, no guns involved):
> 
> 
> 
> ...



If women in the UK wear a burka, then they are safe from being raped. 

Submit to the ruling Caliphate.


----------



## Vagabond63 (Sep 18, 2022)

Uncensored2008 said:


> o why don't you morons list the actual violent crimes against travelers? Oh my ALLAH (tip of the hat to the Caliphate that rules England) - while England has far more violent crimes per 100,000 visitors than the USA does, those Yanks let the PEASANTS have arms? What would Henry the VIII say? (Well, now days in Londonstan he'd have to say "Allahu Akbar")





Uncensored2008 said:


> If women in the UK wear a burka, then they are safe from being raped.
> 
> Submit to the ruling Caliphate.





Uncensored2008 said:


> Like you did?
> 
> I was hesitant to make up a fake site like suckmydick.com, because it might turn out to be a gay porn site and you'd spend the next 20 hours at it - which it looks like is what happened..


Yup, you definitely voted for Trump, and are an excellent example of what Isaac Asimov was talking about.


----------



## westwall (Sep 18, 2022)

C_Clayton_Jones said:


> This is a lie.
> 
> Women in Europe are not prohibited from protecting themselves.





Oh?  What are they allowed to use.  Liar.

Be specific.


----------



## 2aguy (Sep 18, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> Well, "discerning" is one word to describe a mind, so is "closed", "biased", "bigoted", "credulous", "rigid", "pig headed", "persuadable", etc etc.
> 
> All I have done is presented evidence that well regulated firearms laws in a country result in less gun violence in that that country. Nothing at all to do with any Post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy. I believe I have demonstrated the "necessary relationship" (whatever that means) by presenting sufficient examples where this is the case. Go as far out as Mongolia and the pattern holds true (30 gun deaths), or even a Right wing semi-dictatorship like Hungary (56 gun deaths). The result is consistent. The tighter the gun control, the less risk of being shot and/or killed by firearm. QED




No....you haven't come close to establishing "Causation."    And you can't....you use countries that are homogenous, used to obeying the government, respectful of authority to the point of being slavish.......and countries that experienced cultural and societal destruction because of World War 2....

And yet those countries are not changing, catching up to the United States with violence.....as their social welfare states have destroyed their families, and now fatherless boys and girls are turning to crime and violence, and they have imported violent, 3rd world males from cultures that not only do not respect Western culture, but hold it in open contempt, who do not respect or fear your police ...........

So you haven't shown anything that would relate to gun control laws limiting gun crime and murder.....

This is especially true since the criminals of Europe favor fully automatic military rifles for their criminal activity....and in Sweden they also like hand grenades...


----------



## 2aguy (Sep 18, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> A year ago, true. Here's a link to what really goes on and what steps are being taken to improve things (spoiler alert, no guns involved):
> 
> 
> 
> ...




LOL.....

More CCTV cameras?    Now that is funny....

So when the woman is dragged into an alley by her attacker, they will capture it on video...so when the woman is at the NHS hospital getting treated for her beating and rape, the local Bobbies can come in and tell her, yep, they caught it all on video, but the attacker was hooded, dragged her into an alley with no CCTV coverage, so the likelihood is they will never catch the guy until he rapes enough British women that they eventually catch him by accident.....

AGain.......LOL....


----------



## M14 Shooter (Sep 18, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> Well, "discerning" is one word to describe a mind, so is "closed", "biased", "bigoted", "credulous", "rigid", "pig headed", "persuadable", etc etc.


Sadly for you, none of those terms describe soeone who remains unswayed by your "proof".


Vagabond63 said:


> All I have done is presented evidence that well regulated firearms laws in a country result in less gun violence in that that country.


Oh.  Well, OK.
So?


Vagabond63 said:


> I believe I have demonstrated the "necessary relationship" (whatever that means) by presenting sufficient examples where this is the case


Correlation does not prove causation - so, no, you have not.
You rest on a _post hoc_ fallacy.
Just like I said.


----------



## M14 Shooter (Sep 18, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> Still if you look at countries with strict gun controls, their gun death figures are dramatically lower, even allowing for differences in population to those of the USA.


How is it you do not understand that correlation does not prove causation?
Willful ignorance?
If not, then what?


----------



## Cardinal Carminative (Sep 18, 2022)

M14 Shooter said:


> How is it you do not understand that correlation does not prove causation?



How is it that YOU don't understand that while correlation does not prove causation _causal factors can be expected to correlate quite well_.

It's almost like you had half a logic class but not the whole thing.  Almost like you don't have a CLUE how inference works.


----------



## Cardinal Carminative (Sep 18, 2022)

westwall said:


> Oh?  What are they allowed to use.  Liar.
> 
> Be specific.



You mouthbreathers really need to travel.  You have this hilarious trailer park cartoon version of what Europe is like.


----------



## westwall (Sep 18, 2022)

Cardinal Carminative said:


> You mouthbreathers really need to travel.  You have this hilarious trailer park cartoon version of what Europe is like.





Answer the question retard.  My wife and I own a flat in Paris.  I know Europe very well.


----------



## Vagabond63 (Sep 19, 2022)

2aguy said:


> LOL.....
> 
> More CCTV cameras?    Now that is funny....
> 
> ...


Ah yes, the usual cherry picked BS, coupled with your favourite masturbatory fantasy. Pity you didn't read the whole article, although it is a bit dated.


----------



## Vagabond63 (Sep 19, 2022)

M14 Shooter said:


> Sadly for you, none of those terms describe soeone who remains unswayed by your "proof".


True, nothing I say can convince closed minds, or anyone suffering from cognitive dissonance. I, and many millions like me feel safer living in a society with effective gun control. I can walk about unarmed and not have a constant fear that someone at my local pub, will not take offence at a chance remark and start shooting, or not like the way their hamburger was cooked and start shooting the staff, or having a family argument spiral out of control and start shooting each other, or being so frightened of being burgled, that I'd shoot my wife or daughter, returning late from work or a party. All of the aforementioned are fairly common occurrences in America. 


M14 Shooter said:


> Correlation does not prove causation - so, no, you have not.
> You rest on a _post hoc_ fallacy.
> Just like I said


Ah, so you want me to provide a confounder. Interesting. I suppose you are aware of perhaps the most well known and important example of a correlation being clear but causation being in doubt?  Smoking and lung cancer in the 1950's, where it was found that the rate of lung cancer had increased dramatically in the proceeding decades. Nobody at the time disputed that there was a correlation between lung cancer and smoking, but to prove that one caused the other would be no mean feat. It took a study involving more than 40,000 doctors in the UK 6 years to show conclusively that smoking really does cause cancer!

Sadly I neither have the time, nor if truth be told the inclination to perform such a statistical feat of gymnastics. I will maintain however that a well regulated system of firearms control significantly reduces the number of shootings that would otherwise occur without such control.


----------



## Vagabond63 (Sep 19, 2022)

westwall said:


> Answer the question retard.  My wife and I own a flat in Paris.  I know Europe very well.


Then you would be well aware of the French laws on self defence:
*Article 122-5 of the Penal Code* says "a person who, faced with an unjustified attack on themselves or a third person, simultaneously commits an act necessary to legitimate defence, shall incur no criminal liability except where the means employed are disproportionate to the seriousness of the attack." What is the law on self-defence?

You would also know what forms of self defence are allowed: What are the defensive weapons authorized in France?

The situation is very similar in Germany:
*German law permits self-defense against an unlawful attack*. If there is no other possibility for defense, it is generally allowed to use even deadly force without a duty to retreat. However, there must not be an extreme imbalance ("extremes Missverhältnis") between the defended right and the chosen method of defense.
Here's a useful article: German Self-Defence Law | Iain Abernethy


----------



## M14 Shooter (Sep 19, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> True, nothing I say can convince closed minds, or anyone suffering from cognitive dissonance.


That's a strange way of admitting your "proof" will not convince the rational and reasoned, but OK.
Concession accepted.


Vagabond63 said:


> Ah, so you want me to provide a confounder....Sadly I neither have the time, nor if truth be told the inclination to perform such a statistical feat of gymnastics.


Yes.  I want you to prove your claim beyond correlation, because, as you know, correlation does not prove causation.
And, as we see, you know you cannot;.
As always.
Concession accepted.


----------



## westwall (Sep 19, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> Then you would be well aware of the French laws on self defence:
> *Article 122-5 of the Penal Code* says "a person who, faced with an unjustified attack on themselves or a third person, simultaneously commits an act necessary to legitimate defence, shall incur no criminal liability except where the means employed are disproportionate to the seriousness of the attack." What is the law on self-defence?
> 
> You would also know what forms of self defence are allowed: What are the defensive weapons authorized in France?
> ...





Yeah, we are.  And there are 130 dead Parisians because they weren't allowed to have guns to defend themselves when those four assholes went on their shooting rampage.

DURRRRRR


----------



## Blues Man (Sep 19, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> True, nothing I say can convince closed minds, or anyone suffering from cognitive dissonance. I, and many millions like me feel safer living in a society with effective gun control. I can walk about unarmed and not have a constant fear that someone at my local pub, will not take offence at a chance remark and start shooting, or not like the way their hamburger was cooked and start shooting the staff, or having a family argument spiral out of control and start shooting each other, or being so frightened of being burgled, that I'd shoot my wife or daughter, returning late from work or a party. All of the aforementioned are fairly common occurrences in America.
> 
> Ah, so you want me to provide a confounder. Interesting. I suppose you are aware of perhaps the most well known and important example of a correlation being clear but causation being in doubt?  Smoking and lung cancer in the 1950's, where it was found that the rate of lung cancer had increased dramatically in the proceeding decades. Nobody at the time disputed that there was a correlation between lung cancer and smoking, but to prove that one caused the other would be no mean feat. It took a study involving more than 40,000 doctors in the UK 6 years to show conclusively that smoking really does cause cancer!
> 
> Sadly I neither have the time, nor if truth be told the inclination to perform such a statistical feat of gymnastics. I will maintain however that a well regulated system of firearms control significantly reduces the number of shootings that would otherwise occur without such control.



Making up stuff isn't the sign of an open mind.

I have had a carry license for over 30 years.  In those 30 years I have been in too many bars to remember and never once has anyone ever pulled a gun in any place I have ever gone.

I have been in a few auto accidents and while some people went into full road rage mode I have never once had a gun pulled on me.

I have been in movie theaters, concerts, and every other type of crowd you can think of and never once has anyone been murdered by a person with a gun in any of those places.

The average American has a .006% chance of being murdered by a person using a gun. 

You foreigners just don't know the reality of crime in the US.  We know that 70-80% of all murders with or without a gun occur in a literal handful of the poorest parts of the country's major cities.  

The murder rate in these very small very well defined neighborhoods is so high that they skew the numbers for the entire country.

Your little island is literally the size of the state of Michigan jam packed with almost 70 million people.  You just can't relate to the amount of space we Americans enjoy


----------



## M14 Shooter (Sep 19, 2022)

Blues Man said:


> You foreigners just don't know the reality of crime in the US.  We know that 70-80% of all murders with or without a gun occur in a literal handful of the poorest parts of the country's major cities.


And the majority of murders are committed by a specific demographic, against a specific demographic.















__





						Loading…
					





					bjs.ojp.gov


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## 2aguy (Sep 19, 2022)

M14 Shooter said:


> And the majority of murders are committed by a specific demographic, against a specific demographic.




Which is a point the European anti-gun fanatics will never understand.....

In the U.S., the vast majority of gun owners are white Americans......the vast majority of gun criminals are young black males....from the age 15 up.   If guns were the problem, and not culture, as created by the democrat party in the cities they control, crime would be far more spread around the country, and whites, with more guns, would be shooting a lot more people........

This isn't a racial issue...this is an issue of a political party, the democrat party, and their policies, directly impacting a minority population that lives under the political control of the democrat party....the cities with the worst outcomes for minorities in all categories are under total democrat party control.......and the generational poverty and crime is created by fatherless homes...created by democrat party social welfare policies, namely "The Great Society," created by the democrats...


----------



## Blues Man (Sep 20, 2022)

M14 Shooter said:


> And the majority of murders are committed by a specific demographic, against a specific demographic.
> 
> View attachment 698448
> View attachment 698449
> ...


I don't care about skin color


----------



## M14 Shooter (Sep 20, 2022)

Blues Man said:


> I don't care about skin color


Maybe not - but the numbers tell the story.


----------



## Vagabond63 (Sep 20, 2022)

Blues Man said:


> Making up stuff isn't the sign of an open mind.


True, gun crazies make things up all the time. 
Here's a post from another 2aguy thread, hopefully the links still work that describe apparently commonplace incidents throughout America. I'm sure a Google search can come up with more.

Lengthy prison term imposed in shooting case linked to stolen beanie

In the UK, no one involved would have been shot over an argument about a hat, of all things. But hey, that’s what happens if everyone has a gun…

Shooting spree in Denver and Lakewood leaves five dead including shooter; officer wounded

To be fair, something like this happens once every decade or so, always with legally owned firearms, unlike in the USA where you seem to get such incidents every week.

2 Men Killed In Shooting Outside Club Risqué In Philadelphia's Wissinoming Section, Police Say

Well, punch ups outside nightclubs are a relatively common event at weekends here in the UK, but no one ever gets shot.

Daughters injured in quadruple shooting that left mom dead say they want justice

Oh dear, another “responsible” gun owner gets upset. 

'A crime of opportunity': More guns than ever were stolen from vehicles in Nashville in 2021

More “responsible” gun owners behaving irresponsibly; and that’s only in one city. We could do a Lott or Kleck and extrapolate these numbers across the USA which would give us between 402,880 and 24,544,205 guns stolen from responsible gun owners in the US in 2021. Wow, so many irresponsible “responsible” gun owners! Of course, we also need to look at thefts from homes and gun stores…

New York personal trainer arrested and accused of shooting his parents on Christmas


California man accused of fatally shooting his grandmother, father's girlfriend on Christmas

Oh dear, family arguments at Christmas, we have lots of those in the UK every year, but no one gets shot, I wonder why?

911 caller says husband shot 16-year-old daughter because he thought she was an intruder

Oh dear, that’ll teach her to come home late.

No fries with that: Ogden man charged in gun threat at fast-food drive-up

Oh dear, in the UK we occasionally can’t make up our minds what to order, but it’s never life threatening.

Employee Charged With Murder After Shooting Suspected Thief: Police

But, but, it’s a “good guy” with a gun… a “responsible” gun owner, at least he was until he opened fire. This is what can happen if you give guns to everybody.

Shotgun expert 'only wanted to scare son-in-law'

Oh, those fathers-in-law! Another “responsible gun owner” behaving irresponsibly.

Police: Pregnant librarian killed in alleged road rage shooting was aggressor

Aggressor or not, this wouldn’t have happened in the UK, because guns aren’t so easy to get hold of.

https://www.charlotteobserver.com/news/nation-world/national/article256082512.html

In the UK working in a Pizza restaurant isn’t normally a life threatening experience… unless the joint has a low hygiene rating. 

This is just a quick trawl through the internet involving “responsible” American gun owners, “good guys with guns” as the NRA calls them. I suspect I could find a lot more if I can be bothered. 

If you want to own a gun, fine by me. If you want everyone to own a gun in America, that’s also fine by me. It’s your country after all. But please, stop trying to tell me banning handguns hasn’t worked over here, because I can get involved in an argument, buy a pizza, go for a walk, even have a fight, with absolute certainty that I won’t get shot.


----------



## M14 Shooter (Sep 20, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> True, gun crazies make things up all the time.


Says he who can only offer _post hoc_ fallacies to support his positions.


----------



## Vagabond63 (Sep 20, 2022)

westwall said:


> Yeah, we are.  And there are 130 dead Parisians because they weren't allowed to have guns to defend themselves when those four assholes went on their shooting rampage.
> 
> DURRRRRR


Oh, OK, a well planned terrorist attack can be prevented by a granny with a gun, eh? Fun fact, 

"With nearly 20 guns for every 100 people, the French rank high on the European gun ownership ranking. What’s more, it is relatively straightforward to obtain a gun license in France. You simply need to tick these boxes;


Be older than 18 (or over 12 with permission for shooting sports);
Be affiliated with a shooting range;
Have followed at least three shooting sessions with an instructor;
Submit a medical certificate stating you are physically and mentally fit"









						10 Countries With The Easiest Gun Laws In The World
					

Owning guns is getting tough these days. If you're getting out of the U.S., here are the 10 countries with the easiest gun laws.



					www.liveandinvestoverseas.com


----------



## M14 Shooter (Sep 20, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> Oh, OK, a well planned terrorist attack can be prevented by a granny with a gun, eh? Fun fact,
> 
> "With nearly 20 guns for every 100 people, the French rank high on the European gun ownership ranking. What’s more, it is relatively straightforward to obtain a gun license in France. You simply need to tick these boxes;
> 
> ...


Pretty lax.
Why is it again gun-related violent crime is so much lower in France than it is here?


----------



## Vagabond63 (Sep 20, 2022)

M14 Shooter said:


> Maybe not - but the numbers tell the story.


So do mine, so don't you have to prove the necessary relationship? As you are so fond of spouting, correlation does not prove causation...


----------



## Vagabond63 (Sep 20, 2022)

Here's a study that backs up my  position








						Homicide
					

1. Where there are more guns there is more homicide (literature review) Our review of the academic literature found that a broad array of evidence indicates that gun availability is a risk factor f…




					www.hsph.harvard.edu


----------



## Vagabond63 (Sep 20, 2022)

Here's another.

"The use of a gun greatly increases the odds that violence will lead to a fatality: This problem calls for urgent action. *Firearm prohibitions for high-risk groups — domestic violence offenders, persons convicted of violent misdemeanor crimes, and individuals with mental illness who have been adjudicated as being a threat to themselves or to others — have been shown to reduce violence.* The licensing of handgun purchasers, background check requirements for all gun sales, and close oversight of retail gun sellers can reduce the diversion of guns to criminals. Reducing the incidence of gun violence will require interventions through multiple systems, including legal, public health, public safety, community, and health. Increasing the availability of data and funding will help inform and evaluate policies designed to reduce gun violence."


			https://www.apa.org/pubs/reports/gun-violence-prevention


----------



## M14 Shooter (Sep 20, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> So do mine,


You can only offer a _post hoc_ fallacy as a "proof" of your claim - thus, your numbers don't tell anything other than there is a difference between A and B.


Vagabond63 said:


> so don't you have to prove the necessary relationship? As you are so fond of spouting, correlation does not prove causation...


I didn't claim causation, sport.   Pay attention.


----------



## Vagabond63 (Sep 20, 2022)

Looks like Scientific American agrees with me,
"As we previously reported, in 2015, assaults with a firearm were 6.8 times more common in states that had the most guns, compared to the least. More than a dozen studies have revealed that if you had a gun at home, you were twice as likely to be killed as someone who didn’t. Research from the Harvard School of Public Health tells us that states with higher gun ownership levels have higher rates of homicide. Data even tells us that where gun shops or gun dealers open for business, killings go up. These are but a few of the studies that show the exact opposite of what progun politicians are saying. The science must not be ignored." 








						The Science Is Clear: Gun Control Saves Lives
					

By enacting simple laws that make guns safer and harder to get, we can prevent killings like the ones in Uvalde and Buffalo




					www.scientificamerican.com


----------



## Vagabond63 (Sep 20, 2022)

And a cat amongst the pigeons...








						FACT SHEET: California’s Gun Safety Policies Save Lives, Provide Model for a Nation Seeking Solutions | California Governor
					

SACRAMENTO – With the country still reeling from the mass shooting in Uvalde, Texas that left 19 children and two teachers dead last week, California’s nation-leading record on gun safety provides a…




					www.gov.ca.gov


----------



## Vagabond63 (Sep 20, 2022)

M14 Shooter said:


> Why is it again gun-related violent crime is so much lower in France than it is here?


Maybe the French are more civilised.


----------



## Vagabond63 (Sep 20, 2022)

M14 Shooter said:


> Maybe not - but the numbers tell the story.


What story?


----------



## Vagabond63 (Sep 20, 2022)

M14 Shooter said:


> You can only offer a _post hoc_ fallacy as a "proof" of your claim


I disagree, but I've made my case and I'll leave it to the more rational gun owners out there, to decide for themselves. (66% of American gun owners already want stricter gun control, fun fact.)

Wonder how many smokers denied the statistics because they thought everything was a post hoc fallacy?


----------



## M14 Shooter (Sep 20, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> I disagree


And yet, you know you cannot demonstrate otherwise.


----------



## Vagabond63 (Sep 20, 2022)

M14 Shooter said:


> And yet, you know you cannot demonstrate otherwise.


I have done, to my satisfaction. But I've made my case and I'll leave it to the more rational gun owners out there, to decide for themselves. (66% of American gun owners already want stricter gun control, fun fact.)

Wonder how many smokers denied the statistics because they thought everything was a post hoc fallacy?


----------



## M14 Shooter (Sep 20, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> What story?


The difference in gun-related violent crime rates between whiles and blacks in the US.
The rates with black offenders and black victims are all _considerably _higher than the rates with white offenders and white victims.


----------



## M14 Shooter (Sep 20, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> Maybe the French are more civilised.


And thus, you defeat your own argument.
Well done.


----------



## Vagabond63 (Sep 20, 2022)

M14 Shooter said:


> The difference in gun-related violent crime rates between whiles and blacks in the US.
> The rates with black offenders and black victims are all _considerably _higher than the rates with white offenders and white victims.


Why?


----------



## Vagabond63 (Sep 20, 2022)

M14 Shooter said:


> And thus, you defeat your own argument.
> Well done.


More civilised because they have gun control. My argument stands.


----------



## M14 Shooter (Sep 20, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> More civilised because they have gun control. My argument stands.


You proved that France has pretty lax gun control laws -- so that can't be it.
So., again:
Why is it gun-related violent crime is so much lower in France than it is here?


----------



## 2aguy (Sep 20, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> True, gun crazies make things up all the time.
> Here's a post from another 2aguy thread, hopefully the links still work that describe apparently commonplace incidents throughout America. I'm sure a Google search can come up with more.
> 
> Lengthy prison term imposed in shooting case linked to stolen beanie
> ...





And yet.....in 6 years, from 1939-1945 your governments murdered 15 million innocent men, women and children, all across gun controlled Euorpe...unlike the vast majority of murder victims in the U.S. these people were innocent citizens, having committed no crime, engaged in no criminal activity...

Did they steal beani babies before your governments murdered them?

Did the guy working in the pizza place who was murdered by your governments deserve that?

You guys took away their guns on the promise they would be safer.  You did this in the 1920s.....by the beginning of the 1930s, the murders began....and they only stopped because Americans with guns stopped them...

If you look at American gun murder...and we even give you double the normal rate....20,000 people murdered a year......over 246 years that doesn't come close to the number of people you guys murdered in just 6 years...

But you don't want to count those victims......because they show that unarmed people are in danger from their own governments...more so than from owning guns for self defense....

And as you always point out, the vast majority of all shootings in the United States are criminals shooting other criminals......

350 million Americans.

600 million guns.

Over 21.5 million Americans can legally carry guns for self defense.

On average about 10,000 gun murders a year, in years when the democrat party isn't destroying local police forces and releasing violent gun criminals over and over again.....

The vast majority of those victims are criminals, and the family, friends and associates of criminals... 

On the other end, the end you don't want to acknowledge....Americans use their legal guns 1.2 million times a year to stop rapes, robberies, murders, stabbings, mass public shootings.......according to the Centers for Disease Control.....or 1.5 million times a year according to the Department of Justice research....

Now


----------



## M14 Shooter (Sep 20, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> Why?


Beats me -- all I can say is it -doesn't- have anything to do with gun control.


----------



## Vagabond63 (Sep 20, 2022)

And another analysis that backs my position.








						U.S. Gun Policy: Global Comparisons
					

The United States is witnessing another year of record gun violence, raising domestic and international scrutiny of its comparatively loose gun laws and placing pressure on lawmakers to enact meaning…




					www.cfr.org


----------



## Vagabond63 (Sep 20, 2022)

M14 Shooter said:


> Beats me -- all I can say is it -doesn't- have anything to do with gun control.


Prove it.


----------



## westwall (Sep 20, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> Oh, OK, a well planned terrorist attack can be prevented by a granny with a gun, eh? Fun fact,
> 
> "With nearly 20 guns for every 100 people, the French rank high on the European gun ownership ranking. What’s more, it is relatively straightforward to obtain a gun license in France. You simply need to tick these boxes;
> 
> ...





130 dead.  Not one could defend themselves.  Hell the COPS couldn't defend themselves. 

Gun control makes crime easier.

So simple a stupid person can understand. 

But you are far beyond stupid.


----------



## M14 Shooter (Sep 20, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> And another analysis that backs my position.


More _post hoc _nonsense - nothing here demonstrates the necessary relationship between the gun control laws in those countries and their lower rates of gun violence.


----------



## westwall (Sep 20, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> And another analysis that backs my position.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Fake bullshit put out by an anti gun group.  They ignore real facts that refute their propaganda,  and morons, like you lap it up.


----------



## 2aguy (Sep 20, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> Oh, OK, a well planned terrorist attack can be prevented by a granny with a gun, eh? Fun fact,
> 
> "With nearly 20 guns for every 100 people, the French rank high on the European gun ownership ranking. What’s more, it is relatively straightforward to obtain a gun license in France. You simply need to tick these boxes;
> 
> ...




The muslim terrorists who murdered 130 people in the worst terrorist attack in both European and American history.......were on government terrorist watch lists.....most were also criminals, banned from any form of gun ownership.......

The weapons used were not civilian weapons...they were fully automatic military weapons banned on the Continent, in France and in Paris....

Yet the criminals were able to get them easily...

Gun control only limits law abiding citizens.....you can't even control them on your island....

29 out of 43 English and Welsh police forces have seen increases in gun crime during that same period. 



Eight of those forces reported a doubling of the number of offences involving firearms, and one force saw levels six times higher than a decade ago.

---------

County lines​Peter Squires, professor of criminology at the University of Brighton, told The Guardian that so-called “county lines” – a form of criminal exploitation where urban gangs persuade young people to take drugs to rural areas of the country – are probably behind the rise in gun crime in places such as Sussex, Kent and Cheshire. 

-----

*Gun smuggling*​*The prevalence of firearm offences is also partially to do with gun smuggling, experts say. Firearms can now be hired for as little as £100 around the UK and can be acquired in “less than a day”, reported the i news site’s investigations correspondent Dean Kirby.*



According to Dr Robert Hesketh, a criminology expert at Liverpool John Moores University, it is “relatively easy” to get hold of a firearm in many cities.

“A MAC-10 will cost about £3,000, an MP5 £3,000,” Hesketh said. “These are automatic weapons. Another gun doing the rounds a few years ago and possibly now was a Desert Eagle, for about £500. It isn’t hard, put it that way.”

There is also an option to rent a weapon – with criminals borrowing firearms for short periods. “You can get one possibly for £100 to £150 if you know the right people,” Hesketh said.



While it is working to cut off supplies to the UK, the National Crime Agency has seen a “gradual increase” in the use of fully automatic weapons.

Some of the weapons used are deactivated or blank-firing devices, which are being bought in eastern Europe, where they are legal and unrestricted. They are then illegally reactivated by criminals before being transported to the UK, Kirby said. 

Guns can also be bought on the dark web, and stolen, lawfully bought guns have also ended up being used in shootings. On the messaging app Telegram The Sunday Times found firearms advertised for sale from £400.

In 2019/20, the National Crime Agency seized 552 illegal firearms in the UK and abroad. The UK Border Force, meanwhile, picked up 2,600 lethal and non-lethal firearms in the year to September 2020.



Why is gun crime on the rise? | The Week UK



=================





Gun offences had been increasing since roughly 2015 across England and Wales, according to figures from the Office of National Statistics. But then came the pandemic.



Are gun crimes on the rise again?​Dr Robert Hesketh, from the School of Justice Studies at Liverpool John Moores University, thinks the incidents will increase because of the cost of living crisis. 

"People are getting desperate and desperate times call for desperate measures," he said.



*Dr Hesketh disagreed with senior police officers, who say it is hard for a criminal to buy a gun in Britain.*



*The academic instead suggested in Liverpool a cheap firearm can be obtained for as little as £150 with a bit of asking around.*



Gun crime is closely linked with drug dealing. At the top of the criminal tree drug gangs arrange imports to sell in the UK.

The retail arm of the market has become dominated by a relatively new business model.

County lines gangs, using dedicated mobile phones for customers to make orders, shift drugs around the country and have been blamed for increasing the risk of violence involving guns and knives.

Liverpool is an important part of the UK's drug gang infrastructure.



http://[URL='https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-62667546[/URL]']https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-62667546[/URL]





Police struggle to stop flood of firearms into UK


Police and border officials are struggling to stop a rising supply of illegal firearms being smuggled into Britain, a senior police chief has warned.

Chief constable Andy Cooke, the national police lead for serious and organised crime, said law enforcement had seen an increased supply of guns over the past year, and feared that it would continue in 2019

The Guardian has learned that the situation is so serious that the National Crime Agency has taken the rare step of using its legal powers to direct every single police force to step up the fight against illegal guns.

The NCA has used tasking powers to direct greater intelligence about firearms to be gathered by all 43 forces in England and Wales.

Another senior law enforcement official said that “new and clean” weapons were now being used in the majority of shootings, as opposed to guns once being so difficult to obtain that they would be “rented out” to be used in multiple crimes.

*Cooke, the Merseyside chief constable, told the Guardian: “We in law enforcement expect the rise in new firearms to continue. We are doing all we can. We are not in a position to stop it anytime soon.*

“Law enforcement is more joined up now than before, but the scale of the problem is such that despite a number of excellent firearms seizures, I expect the rise in supply to be a continuing issue.”

The increasing supply of guns belies problems with UK border security and innovations by organised crime gangs. Smugglers have increasingly found new ways and innovative routes to get guns past border defences.


*Cooke said that the dynamics of the streets of British cities had changed and that criminals were more willing to use guns: “If they bring them in people will buy them. It’s a kudos thing for organised criminals.”

Simon Brough, head of firearms at the NCA, said: “The majority of guns being used are new, clean firearms ... which indicates a relatively fluid supply.”*

He said shotguns were 40% of the total, with an increase in burglaries to try and steal them.

*Handguns are the next biggest category,* most often smuggled in from overseas, with ferry ports such as Dover being a popular entry point into the UK for organised crime groups:




==========

9/1/22

*Concerns are now being raised about the growing availability of firearms in parts of the north of England and the Midlands as some police forces are struggling to tackle rising gun crime with fewer officers than they had a decade ago.*


The sharpest rise is in the north-east, where gun crime has more than tripled from an average of 91 firearms offences a year between 2009 and 2012, to 294 a year between 2019 and 2022.
In the Cleveland police area, firearms offences have risen almost sixfold, from a yearly average of 22 to 127. Durham, Sussex, Lincolnshire, Northumbria, South Yorkshire, Norfolk and Kent police have all seen numbers more than double in 10 years.
While big cities dominate the headlines, the rise in gun crime in places such as Sussex, Kent and Cheshire is probably down to what has become known as “county lines” – urban organised crime groups pushing out into rural areas – said Peter Squires, a gun crime expert and professor of criminology at the University of Brighton.

Gun crime rising in two-thirds of police force areas in England and Wales
=========

Gun crime rising in two-thirds of police force areas in England and Wales


10/13/21



Powerful automatic guns are being smuggled into Britain for use by organised crime gangs.

The National Crime Agency and police seized weapons in raids on the homes of previously untouchable “Mr Big”s after receiving intelligence from European detectives who broke an encrypted phone network used by drug dealers and gun traffickers.

Gangs bring rapid‑fire guns to Britain’s streets


----------



## 2aguy (Sep 20, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> Looks like Scientific American agrees with me,
> "As we previously reported, in 2015, assaults with a firearm were 6.8 times more common in states that had the most guns, compared to the least. More than a dozen studies have revealed that if you had a gun at home, you were twice as likely to be killed as someone who didn’t. Research from the Harvard School of Public Health tells us that states with higher gun ownership levels have higher rates of homicide. Data even tells us that where gun shops or gun dealers open for business, killings go up. These are but a few of the studies that show the exact opposite of what progun politicians are saying. The science must not be ignored."
> 
> 
> ...




Scientific American can no longer tell us what is a "woman."  They are no longer a "Science," journal, they are a left wing propaganda rag.....


----------



## Vagabond63 (Sep 20, 2022)

M14 Shooter said:


> You proved that France has pretty lax gun control laws


You really need to look up French gun laws. I quoted an American publication, that oversimplified the case.


----------



## 2aguy (Sep 20, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> And a cat amongst the pigeons...
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Moron...California has had more mass public shootings than Texas...Texas has gun stores on every corner and concealed and open carry of guns, as well as being a huge border state right next to the drug cartel nation of Mexico.......

You moron....

*As of July 2022, California had the most mass shootings in the United States, with 23 total shootings since 1982. The source defines a mass shooting as a shooting where four or more people were killed.*









						Mass shootings in the U.S. by state 1982-2022 | Statista
					

As of November 2022, California had the most mass shootings in the United States, with 23 total shootings since 1982.




					www.statista.com


----------



## 2aguy (Sep 20, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> You really need to look up French gun laws. I quoted an American publication, that oversimplified the case.




Hey....tell us......do French gun laws allow convicted criminals and individuals on government terrorist watch lists to buy illegal, fully automatic military rifles?  What about grenades?

Can you point to us where in French law it allows criminals and suspected terrorists to buy, own and carry fully automatic military rifles?

I am not sure you know what you are talking about.....


----------



## 2aguy (Sep 20, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> You really need to look up French gun laws. I quoted an American publication, that oversimplified the case.



You mean like these......

France....

Paris attacks highlight France's gun control problems

*The arsenal of weapons deployed by the eight attackers who terrorised Paris on Friday night underlined France’s gun control problems and raised the spectre of further attacks.

The country has extremely strict weapons laws, but Europe’s open borders and growing trade in illegal weapons means assault rifles are relatively easy to come by on the black market.


===============

A police investigation is underway after two people were shot dead, and a third burnt alive on Saturday evening in the southern French city of Marseille. It's the fourth death linked to gun violence this week, a phenomenon which the Mayor Benoît Payan says is out of control. 
*
*"In Marseille, you can buy a Kalachnikov as easy as buying a pain au chocolat," he said.*
*
"This has to stop, and the Interior Minister, who is aware of the problem, must make it a key objective."
----
"If people are being killed by Kalachnikov rifles, it's because they are too easily sold throughout the city."



Three dead in Marseille shootout: 'guns are too easy to buy' says mayor

Reports of 'heavy gunfire' on the streets of French city of Nimes | Daily Mail Online
*
*Machine-gun shots have been heard on the streets of a French city this evening as it was claimed a 'shootout' took place between rival gangs.*

*Repeated 'heavy gunfire' bursts were let off in the city of Nimes in southern France after armed men were seen in the area.

Social media videos showed several people running through the street as shots rang out at around 8.30pm.

Initial reports suggested the shooting could have been linked to gangs operating in the area.

Residents in a suburb of Pissevin district in the city claimed gang members shot at a building occupied by a rival group.


Reports of gunfire in the district have been on the rise in recent months, according to local media*


----------



## 2aguy (Sep 20, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> You really need to look up French gun laws. I quoted an American publication, that oversimplified the case.




A little more on France.....and fully automatic military rifles....the ones that are illegal on the Continent, in France and in Paris....



> https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/9571031/tourist-killed-ak-47-gangland-shooting-french-resort-popular-brits/
> 
> The woman was on a hired scooter when she and her husband were sprayed with bullets as they passed a gangland Kalashnikov shooting in which three people died.
> ---
> ...



===============
France’s real gun problem

Despite these strict laws, France seems to be awash with guns. The guns used in high-profile terror attacks are really just the tip of the iceberg. In 2012, French authorities estimated that there were around 30,000 guns illegally in the country, many likely used by gangs for criminal activities. Of those guns, around 4,000 were likely to be "war weapons," Le Figaro reported, referring to items such as the Kalashnikov AK-variant rifles and Uzis. Statistics from the National Observatory for Delinquency, a government body created in 2003, suggest that the number of guns in France has grown by double digits every year.


-----------------
This is How AK-47s Get to Paris

France outlaws most gun ownership and it’s almost impossible to legally acquire a high-powered rifle such as an AK-47, so where did the weapons in the Nov. 13 terror attack—not to mention the bloody January assault by Islamic terrorists on the Paris office of_Charlie Hebdo_ magazine and the 2012 shootings by a militant in Toulouse—come from?



Guns soon became a major export commodity in the Balkans. Western Europe is the target market. “Many firearms trafficked in Europe come from the western Balkans after being held illegally after recent conflicts in the area,” Europol reported. In just one case from 2014, Slovakian cops intercepted a truck trying to enter the country with “a large number of grenades and firearms,”according to Europol. “The vehicle was travelling from Bosnia and Herzegovina to Sweden.”

And it’s not like the stream of weapons will end when dealers in the Balkans run out of war-vintage leftovers. “One of the reasons we see a lot of Kalashnikovs and AK-47s on the black market is because Russia has just upgraded the Kalashnikov,” Kathie Lynn Austin, an expert on arms trafficking with the Conflict Awareness Project, told Al Jazeera, “and that has created massive stockpiles of the older models.”

On March 6, 2012, French lawmakers passed a law tightening up gun regulation and increasing penalties for illegal ownership. Just five days later, Mohamed Merah—a French jihadist of Algerian descent—went on shooting rampage, killing seven people in three separate attacks in around Toulouse before a police sniper shot him dead.

*Merah’s arsenal included an AK-47, an Uzi, a Sten submachine gun, a shotgun, and several pistols—all illegal. “He could only supply himself on the black market or from crime organizations, that’s clear,” Thierry Coste, a pro-gun lobbyist, told The Christian Science Monitor.*

In October 2014, French police raided several homes across the country, breaking up an Internet-based smuggling ring, arresting 48 suspected traffickers, *and seizing hundreds of illegal guns. Three months later on Jan. 7 this year, jihadist gunmen wielding AK-47s shot up Charlie Hebdo in Paris, killing 12 people.*


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## M14 Shooter (Sep 20, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> You really need to look up French gun laws.


YOU looked them up.
Under YOUR standard, they are lax.
So., again:
Given the lax gun laws in France, why is gun-related violent crime is so much lower there than it is here?


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## Cardinal Carminative (Sep 20, 2022)

westwall said:


> Answer the question retard.  My wife and I own a flat in Paris.  I know Europe very well.



Oh I bet you do!  I just BET you own property in Paris.  (I didn't realize they had TRAILER PARKS there too!)


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## Blues Man (Sep 20, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> True, gun crazies make things up all the time.
> 
> 
> If you want to own a gun, fine by me. If you want everyone to own a gun in America, that’s also fine by me. It’s your country after all. But please, stop trying to tell me banning handguns hasn’t worked over here, because I can get involved in an argument, buy a pizza, go for a walk, even have a fight, with absolute certainty that I won’t get shot.


And so do you.

Hey you obviously like to live under a government that bans everything from guns to books to pocket knives that's your choice.

But don't try to tell me the reality of the crime in this country because you obviously know nothing about it


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## Vagabond63 (Sep 21, 2022)

westwall said:


> Gun control makes crime easier.


Prove it.


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## Vagabond63 (Sep 21, 2022)

Blues Man said:


> And so do you.


What have I made up?


----------



## westwall (Sep 21, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> Prove it.





Your country is proof.  Dumbass.


----------



## Vagabond63 (Sep 21, 2022)

westwall said:


> Fake bullshit put out by an anti gun group. They ignore real facts that refute their propaganda, and morons, like you lap it up.


Fake bullshit is invariably put out by pro-gun groups, who ignore facts that refute their propaganda, and gun crazies just lap it up.


----------



## Vagabond63 (Sep 21, 2022)

westwall said:


> Your country is proof.  Dumbass.


"Correlation does not prove causation" to quote M14 shooter. Concession accepted.


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## Blues Man (Sep 21, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> What have I made up?


You assumptions regarding crime in the US are all wrong


----------



## Vagabond63 (Sep 21, 2022)

M14 Shooter said:


> And yet, you know you cannot demonstrate otherwise.


I have done, several times now, but I appreciate that any form of acceptance would shatter your fragile world, so feel free to continue to deny the facts. Your concession is accepted.


----------



## Vagabond63 (Sep 21, 2022)

M14 Shooter said:


> Under YOUR standard, they are lax.


Point out to me please where I state that French gun laws are lax.


----------



## Vagabond63 (Sep 21, 2022)

Blues Man said:


> You assumptions regarding crime in the US are all wrong


I've made no assumptions, just pointed out incidents where "responsible" gun owners end up shooting people and this happens with alarming regularity, it appears.

Like this, for example Gunman shoots 3 at Tri-State Fair in Amarillo before being shot by deputies
Or this:








						Woman Killed, Man Wounded in North Philadelphia Shooting
					

A woman died and a man was wounded when a dispute between a group of people turned into a shooting in North Philadelphia.




					www.nbcphiladelphia.com
				



Or this:








						Florida man accused of shooting, killing ex-wife, her son over argument about electricity
					

A mother and her adult son were shot and killed over an argument with a suspect about electricity Sunday night, the Volusia Sheriff's Office told reporters Monday during a news conference.




					www.fox35orlando.com
				




That took just a few minutes. The number of Responsible" gun owners resolving disagreements by shooting  appears endless. What a barbarous country you must live in, I pity you.


----------



## Vagabond63 (Sep 21, 2022)

...and another one.








						6-year-old child, adult man killed in Bloomington shooting
					

A 6-year-old child and 35-year-old man were killed in a shooting at a Bloomington apartment complex Tuesday night, police said.




					pantagraph.com
				




..cue torrent of cut and paste trash from 2aguy....GO!


----------



## 2aguy (Sep 21, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> Prove it.




Well......for one, women, the elderly, the weak, the handicapped......are much easier to beat, rape, murder, stab.....which is why they are usually targeted by criminals......while allowing them to have guns makes them less likely to be raped, robbed, murdered, beaten or stabbed.....


----------



## 2aguy (Sep 21, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> Point out to me please where I state that French gun laws are lax.




Well......8 terrorists, many of them criminals to begin with, all of them on French government terrorist watch lists were able to get fully automatic military rifles and used them to murder more people in one go, 130, than all of the mass public shooting attacks in the U.S.........we don't even come close to that one....


----------



## 2aguy (Sep 21, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> I've made no assumptions, just pointed out incidents where "responsible" gun owners end up shooting people and this happens with alarming regularity, it appears.
> 
> Like this, for example Gunman shoots 3 at Tri-State Fair in Amarillo before being shot by deputies
> Or this:
> ...




And the vast majority of those shootings are committed by people with long criminal histories, captured by the police over and over again, then released by democrat party prosecutors, judges and politicians.......they are not legally allowed to own, carry or buy guns......but for some reason they ignore the gun control laws here in the U.S.....


----------



## 2aguy (Sep 21, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> ...and another one.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




It's behind a paywall you doofus.....


----------



## 2aguy (Sep 21, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> I've made no assumptions, just pointed out incidents where "responsible" gun owners end up shooting people and this happens with alarming regularity, it appears.
> 
> Like this, for example Gunman shoots 3 at Tri-State Fair in Amarillo before being shot by deputies
> Or this:
> ...




Yep...criminals with histories of crime and violence...........just like in Britain.......


----------



## M14 Shooter (Sep 21, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> I have done, several times now,...


Your statement is false, as you know you have, repeatedly, failed to prove the causation you claim.
This will not change, because you know you cannot prove causation, only demonstrate correlation.


----------



## 2aguy (Sep 21, 2022)

M14 Shooter said:


> Your statement is false, as you know you have, repeatedly, failed to prove the causation you claim.
> This will not change, because you know you cannot prove causation, only demonstrate correlation.




And correlation that is going to fail in time.....as the criminals in Britain and the rest of Europe become more and more violent and use guns more and more for their business....


----------



## M14 Shooter (Sep 21, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> Point out to me please where I state that French gun laws are lax.


-Your- post #55 -demonstrates- those gun laws to be lax.
So., again:
Given the lax gun laws in France, why is gun-related violent crime is so much lower there than it is here?


----------



## westwall (Sep 21, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> Fake bullshit is invariably put out by pro-gun groups, who ignore facts that refute their propaganda, and gun crazies just lap it up.





Nah, they use FBI crime reports.  Your sources make shit up.


----------



## Vagabond63 (Sep 21, 2022)

M14 Shooter said:


> -Your- post #55 -demonstrates- those gun laws to be lax.
> So., again:
> Given the lax gun laws in France, why is gun-related violent crime is so much lower there than it is here?


Erm, post #55 is your post, not mine. Never mind, try again.


----------



## Vagabond63 (Sep 21, 2022)

westwall said:


> Nah, they use FBI crime reports.  Your sources make shit up.


Correction, they cherry pick from any source they think can convince their gun crazies they are stating facts, not difficult given the gun crazies mainly voted for Trump.


----------



## M14 Shooter (Sep 21, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> Point out to me please where I state that French gun laws are lax.


-Your- post #154 -demonstrates- those gun laws to be lax.
So., again:
Given the lax gun laws in France, why is gun-related violent crime is so much lower there than it is here?


----------



## Vagabond63 (Sep 21, 2022)

M14 Shooter said:


> Your statement is false, as you know you have, repeatedly, failed to prove the causation you claim.
> This will not change, because you know you cannot prove causation, only demonstrate correlation.


I disagree, but that's what I'd expect from someone that cannot disprove anything I've posted, just relies on a meaningless statistical mantra of causation and correlation.


----------



## M14 Shooter (Sep 21, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> Correction, they cherry pick from any source they think can convince their gun crazies they are stating facts,...


Says he who believes correlation proves causation.


----------



## Vagabond63 (Sep 21, 2022)

M14 Shooter said:


> Your- post #154 -demonstrates- those gun laws to be lax.


No it doesn't.  The source is an American opinion on French gun laws. This is a more detailed French article. EXPLAINED: How gun control laws work in France


----------



## M14 Shooter (Sep 21, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> No it doesn't.  The source is an American opinion on French gun laws.


So...  if you knew the soruce was invalid, why did you bother posting it?


----------



## Vagabond63 (Sep 21, 2022)

2aguy said:


> Well......8 terrorists, many of them criminals to begin with, all of them on French government terrorist watch lists were able to get fully automatic military rifles and used them to murder more people in one go, 130, than all of the mass public shooting attacks in the U.S.........we don't even come close to that one....


Lucky for you there was only 1 shooter in 2017, 60 dead, 867 wounded; gosh just imagine tif there had been seven more...


----------



## Vagabond63 (Sep 21, 2022)

M14 Shooter said:


> So...  if you knew the soruce was invalid, why did you bother posting it?


I never thought the source was invalid, just dumbing it down for you as you never bother to do any research yourself, just mindlessly repeat your meaningless causation/correlation mantra. You do agree smoking causes lung cancer?


----------



## M14 Shooter (Sep 21, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> I never thought the source was invalid...


So you agree - France -does- have among the "10 easiest"  - that is, most lax - gun control laws in the world.
So., again:
If the gun control laws in France are so lax, why is it gun-related violent crime is so much lower in France than it is here?


----------



## Vagabond63 (Sep 21, 2022)

M14 Shooter said:


> So you agree - France -does- have among the "10 easiest"  - that is, most lax - gun control laws in the world.
> So., again:
> If the gun control laws in France are so lax, why is it gun-related violent crime is so much lower in France than it is here?


Easiest is not the same as most lax. The laws are far from lax, just have an easy process involved, not too much bureaucracy, involved if you want to shoot for sport.


----------



## M14 Shooter (Sep 21, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> Easiest is not the same as most lax.


Now you're just lying to yourself - as I knew you would.
Back into the pit.


----------



## westwall (Sep 21, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> Correction, they cherry pick from any source they think can convince their gun crazies they are stating facts, not difficult given the gun crazies mainly voted for Trump.





On the contrary, it is YOUR sources that have been proven to cherry pick.  In one case the academic fraud was so bad that the perp is no longer a professor, he is now a barrista because that is all he could get job wise that didn't consist of digging in the dirt.


----------



## 2aguy (Sep 21, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> Lucky for you there was only 1 shooter in 2017, 60 dead, 867 wounded; gosh just imagine tif there had been seven more...




60?   Compared to the 130 killed, 416 injured in France in just one attack?.......can you tell us again what French law says about criminals who are on the government"s Terrorist Watch list owning, carrying and using fully automatic military rifles to murder 130 people?

The Vegas shooter injured 413 with gun fire.....your muslim terrorists with their illegal, fully automatic military rifles killed and injured more than he did......



Is that actually against the law?


----------



## 2aguy (Sep 21, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> Easiest is not the same as most lax. The laws are far from lax, just have an easy process involved, not too much bureaucracy, involved if you want to shoot for sport.



Please, tell us........are fully automatic military weapons against the law in France?

Can criminals, also on the government's terrorist watch list buy, own and use fully automatic military rifles as part of French gun control laws?

The only thing they didn't seem to use was grenades....they used suicide belts instead.....are those illegal in France?

IF they had made a quick stop in Sweden before the attack they could have gotten all the grenades they needed.......


----------



## Vagabond63 (Sep 23, 2022)

M14 Shooter said:


> Now you're just lying to yourself


It must be wonderful to live in your fantasy bubble, playing your board wargames where the Nazis always win... I prefer to live in the real world for all its faults. 


M14 Shooter said:


> Back into the pit.


What? And join you there? No thanks.


----------

