# Child bride in Yemen dies of internal bleeding on wedding night: activist



## Moonglow

> SANAA (Reuters) - An eight-year-old Yemeni girl died of internal bleeding on her wedding night after marrying a man five times her age, a social activist and two local residents said, in a case that has caused an outcry in the media and revived debate about child brides.





> "On the wedding night and after intercourse, she suffered from bleeding and uterine rupture which caused her death," Othman told Reuters. "They took her to a clinic but the medics couldn't save her life."
> 
> Othman said authorities had not taken any action against the girl's family or her husband.t






> Many poor families in Yemen marry off young daughters to save on the costs of bringing up a child and earn extra money from the dowry given to the girl.



This is very wrong and needs to stop.


----------



## Noomi

Good grief, that poor child.


----------



## Moonglow

The US used to allow this in the early 1800's but it was stopped. Mexico it's 12.
It is an ancient cultural thing but this is not the ancient period. The UN has tried to stop it, but women's rights in the ME suck.


----------



## TheOldSchool

Unbelievable.  Disgusting.  I don't know what else to say.


----------



## MJB12741

What an uncivilized backward poeple America & Israel have for enemies.


----------



## Indofred

Disgusting.
There is no way in this world that an 8 year old child should have sexual contact of any sort.
This bastard bloke should have his dick removed with a blunt saw.


----------



## Osomir

That's pretty horrible. Luckily, Yemen tends to be the exception for the area rather than the rule. it is a particularly difficult country to government via legal sets: highly decentralized and tribalized, and that's the way the government has preferred it.


----------



## Osomir

MJB12741 said:


> What an uncivilized backward poeple America & Israel have for enemies.



We're not at war with Yemen; if anything the central authorities have helped us fight AQAP by aiding our drone program.


----------



## S.J.

Gotta be a muslim.


----------



## Osomir

S.J. said:


> Gotta be a muslim.



In Yemen? Most likely. Child marriage happens in many non-Islamic majority countries as well though (it is a big problem in parts of Southern Africa, and the rest of Sub-Saharan Africa for that matter). It is also a large problem in India. 

Child marriage is one of those nasty side effects of weak governmental institutions coupled with extreme poverty. It's horrible stuff.


----------



## Indofred

Osomir said:


> S.J. said:
> 
> 
> 
> Gotta be a muslim.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In Yemen? Most likely. Child marriage happens in many non-Islamic majority countries as well though (it is a big problem in parts of Southern Africa, and the rest of Sub-Saharan Africa for that matter). It is also a large problem in India.
> 
> Child marriage is one of those nasty side effects of weak governmental institutions coupled with extreme poverty. It's horrible stuff.
Click to expand...


An intelligent poster.

Whilst child marriage is clearly a problem as big as it is nasty in some Muslim countries, it also happens far too often in other cultures.
Sometimes it's poverty whist others do it for cultural reasons.
Many such cultures, perhaps the Mosuo being the strangest, are totally alien to western norms and many would consider their ideal of 'walking marriage' very strange indeed.

Basically, for the less than well educated, a girl becomes a potential sexual partner after her first period, will take as many lovers as she wishes during her life but never marry.
Kids are brought up by the women and men have absolutely no say in anything outside farming.

To actual child marriage.
As we'll see from the map, the spread is far greater in poorer countries than in richer ones.
Unlike the dafter poster (Sub quoted), if we use our brains, we see the problem isn't a Muslim one but one of social group and lack of cash.


----------



## Lipush

Moonglow said:


> SANAA (Reuters) - An eight-year-old Yemeni girl died of internal bleeding on her wedding night after marrying a man five times her age, a social activist and two local residents said, in a case that has caused an outcry in the media and revived debate about child brides.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "On the wedding night and after intercourse, she suffered from bleeding and uterine rupture which caused her death," Othman told Reuters. "They took her to a clinic but the medics couldn't save her life."
> 
> Othman said authorities had not taken any action against the girl's family or her husband.t
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Many poor families in Yemen marry off young daughters to save on the costs of bringing up a child and earn extra money from the dowry given to the girl.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> This is very wrong and needs to stop.
Click to expand...


That's so sad.

Hope this horrible thing stops, and little girls can lead normal lives.


----------



## Lipush

Moonglow said:


> SANAA (Reuters) - An eight-year-old Yemeni girl died of internal bleeding on her wedding night after marrying a man five times her age, a social activist and two local residents said, in a case that has caused an outcry in the media and revived debate about child brides.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "On the wedding night and after intercourse, she suffered from bleeding and uterine rupture which caused her death," Othman told Reuters. "They took her to a clinic but the medics couldn't save her life."
> 
> Othman said authorities had not taken any action against the girl's family or her husband.t
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Many poor families in Yemen marry off young daughters to save on the costs of bringing up a child and earn extra money from the dowry given to the girl.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> This is very wrong and needs to stop.
Click to expand...


The parents should be punished as well.

They are at fault exactly as the husband, for sending the child off to be killed by a perv.


----------



## Lipush

Indofred said:


> Disgusting.
> There is no way in this world that an 8 year old child should have sexual contact of any sort.
> This bastard bloke should have his dick removed with a blunt saw.



How common is child marriage in Yemen?


----------



## Roudy

Moonglow said:


> SANAA (Reuters) - An eight-year-old Yemeni girl died of internal bleeding on her wedding night after marrying a man five times her age, a social activist and two local residents said, in a case that has caused an outcry in the media and revived debate about child brides.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "On the wedding night and after intercourse, she suffered from bleeding and uterine rupture which caused her death," Othman told Reuters. "They took her to a clinic but the medics couldn't save her life."
> 
> Othman said authorities had not taken any action against the girl's family or her husband.t
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Many poor families in Yemen marry off young daughters to save on the costs of bringing up a child and earn extra money from the dowry given to the girl.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> This is very wrong and needs to stop.
Click to expand...

They're just following in the footsteps of their prophet and final messenger Mohammad who married year old Aisha.  In fact, child brides is legal in many Muslim countries today, if not culturally acceptable. It's part if their religion and Shariah law sanctions it.


----------



## Roudy

It's even happening in Europe, where Muslims are a minority:

*Muslim Child Brides in Britain
*
It is heartbreaking, even as it is unsurprising.  In Britain, the authorities are now reporting the forced marriage of girls as young as nine years old on British soil.  We are not talking about one case, but several, which take place under official protection.  We are not speaking, then, about parents or &#8220;husbands&#8221; who are being charged with a criminal offense.  The situation, in other words, is completely unacceptable and makes clear that we have a crying need for a new approach to these matters.  Government must put its foot down &#8211; and powerfully so &#8211; so that there will be no doubt as to the way in which such grotesque crimes will be addressed.

First, when I say that the marriage of nine-year-old girls in today&#8217;s Britain (and the rest of the EU, for that matter) is unsurprising, my statement is based on my own 17 years of experience in the field of immigration: forms of assault based on tradition and religion &#8211; including child marriage, forced marriage, genital mutilation, so-called honor-related offenses such as rape and murder &#8211; have become established here as a result of immigration, mostly from Muslim countries.  Instances of these offenses have been documented in countries such as Norway (where, to be sure, there have been no recorded cases of marriage to girls as young as nine, but where the marriage of an 11-year-old came to light in a TV documentary that I worked on as journalist; such cases have also been known in Sweden). The only phenomenon that has not been documented in Norway thus far is forced eating by girls before they are to be married off.  I was told about this practice by feminists in Paris in 2003, and the phenomenon had been imported into France by immigrants, mostly from Mali.  Girls are locked up and fed like geese before being married, because in their culture being fat is considered beautiful.


----------



## Osomir

Roudy said:


> It's even happening in Europe, where Muslims are a minority:
> 
> *Muslim Child Brides in Britain
> *
> It is heartbreaking, even as it is unsurprising.  In Britain, the authorities are now reporting the forced marriage of girls as young as nine years old on British soil.  We are not talking about one case, but several, which take place under official protection.  We are not speaking, then, about parents or &#8220;husbands&#8221; who are being charged with a criminal offense.  The situation, in other words, is completely unacceptable and makes clear that we have a crying need for a new approach to these matters.  Government must put its foot down &#8211; and powerfully so &#8211; so that there will be no doubt as to the way in which such grotesque crimes will be addressed.
> 
> First, when I say that the marriage of nine-year-old girls in today&#8217;s Britain (and the rest of the EU, for that matter) is unsurprising, my statement is based on my own 17 years of experience in the field of immigration: forms of assault based on tradition and religion &#8211; including child marriage, forced marriage, genital mutilation, so-called honor-related offenses such as rape and murder &#8211; have become established here as a result of immigration, mostly from Muslim countries.  Instances of these offenses have been documented in countries such as Norway (where, to be sure, there have been no recorded cases of marriage to girls as young as nine, but where the marriage of an 11-year-old came to light in a TV documentary that I worked on as journalist; such cases have also been known in Sweden). The only phenomenon that has not been documented in Norway thus far is forced eating by girls before they are to be married off.  I was told about this practice by feminists in Paris in 2003, and the phenomenon had been imported into France by immigrants, mostly from Mali.  Girls are locked up and fed like geese before being married, because in their culture being fat is considered beautiful.



Luckily Gavage isn't very common anymore, and is largely found in Africa and every once in a while: Pakistan. It would also be more likely to spring up in France in Europe since the largest practicing country Mauritania is a former French colony. 

A much more common concern today regarding the diet of women in the world is malnutrition and them not receiving as much food as male counterparts.


----------



## RoadVirus

What a fucked up culture.


----------



## Sallow

Osomir said:


> S.J. said:
> 
> 
> 
> Gotta be a muslim.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In Yemen? Most likely. Child marriage happens in many non-Islamic majority countries as well though (it is a big problem in parts of Southern Africa, and the rest of Sub-Saharan Africa for that matter). It is also a large problem in India.
> 
> *Child marriage is one of those nasty side effects of weak governmental institutions coupled with extreme poverty. It's horrible stuff*.
Click to expand...


You cannot emphasize this more.

Part of what government does is put into place mechanism to protect those that can't protect themselves.

Namely, children.

That said, this is unbelievably sad and ridiculously disgusting.


----------



## gainzz

One of the poorest countries in the Middle East...


----------



## HereWeGoAgain

Sallow said:


> Osomir said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> S.J. said:
> 
> 
> 
> Gotta be a muslim.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In Yemen? Most likely. Child marriage happens in many non-Islamic majority countries as well though (it is a big problem in parts of Southern Africa, and the rest of Sub-Saharan Africa for that matter). It is also a large problem in India.
> 
> *Child marriage is one of those nasty side effects of weak governmental institutions coupled with extreme poverty. It's horrible stuff*.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You cannot emphasize this more.
> 
> Part of what government does is put into place mechanism to protect those that can't protect themselves.
> 
> Namely, children.
> 
> That said, this is unbelievably sad and ridiculously disgusting.
Click to expand...


  Yeah....I guess thats what happens when you allow radical muslims to run your country.


----------



## Osomir

HereWeGoAgain said:


> Yeah....I guess thats what happens when you allow radical muslims to run your country.



Yemen doesn't have a strong central government, nor is it radically Islamic.


----------



## HereWeGoAgain

Osomir said:


> HereWeGoAgain said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah....I guess thats what happens when you allow radical muslims to run your country.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yemen doesn't have a strong central government, nor is it radically Islamic.
Click to expand...


  Yeah OK.....
https://www.google.com/search?q=rad...ome..69i57j0.31914j0&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8


----------



## Osomir

HereWeGoAgain said:


> Osomir said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> HereWeGoAgain said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah....I guess thats what happens when you allow radical muslims to run your country.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yemen doesn't have a strong central government, nor is it radically Islamic.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yeah OK.....
> https://www.google.com/search?q=rad...ome..69i57j0.31914j0&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8
Click to expand...


Yemen doesn't have a very strong central government, nor is said government a radical Islamic one.

In fact the government actively and routinely shuts down radical Islamic schools. Their existence is against national educational policy.


----------



## syrenn

Osomir said:


> S.J. said:
> 
> 
> 
> Gotta be a muslim.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In Yemen? Most likely. Child marriage happens in many non-Islamic majority countries as well though (it is a big problem in parts of Southern Africa, and the rest of Sub-Saharan Africa for that matter). It is also a large problem in India.
> 
> Child marriage is one of those nasty side effects of weak governmental institutions coupled with extreme poverty. It's horrible stuff.
Click to expand...


sorry... it has nothing to do with weak governments or poverty.

it all about men and their dicks.....


----------



## Osomir

syrenn said:


> sorry... it has nothing to do with weak governments or poverty.
> 
> it all about men and their dicks..... [/COLOR]



And weak governmental institutions and poverty. The notion that social reinforcement for such practices only comes from males is also inaccurate; which is also part of the problem.


----------



## syrenn

Osomir said:


> syrenn said:
> 
> 
> 
> sorry... it has nothing to do with weak governments or poverty.
> 
> it all about men and their dicks..... [/COLOR]
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And weak governmental institutions and poverty. The notion that social reinforcement for such practices only comes from males is also inaccurate; which is also part of the problem.
Click to expand...





female children only have a value in these countries if they can be sold.  Religion is more responsible then poverty or government.


----------



## Osomir

syrenn said:


> female children only have a value in these countries if they can be sold.  Religion is more responsible then poverty or government.



So we should blame Christianity for the prevalence of child marriage in Sub-Saharan Africa and South America? And Hinduism for child marriage in India?

That seems a bit off to me. You do these girls little favors by ignoring the causes of their plight.


----------



## syrenn

Osomir said:


> syrenn said:
> 
> 
> 
> female children only have a value in these countries if they can be sold.  Religion is more responsible then poverty or government.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So we should blame Christianity for the prevalence of child marriage in Sub-Saharan Africa and South America? And Hinduism for child marriage in India?
> 
> That seems a bit off to me. You do these girls little favors by ignoring the causes of their plight.
Click to expand...


 as i said before.....the one and only cause for their plight is 

men

and

their

dicks.


----------



## Sunshine

Moonglow said:


> SANAA (Reuters) - An eight-year-old Yemeni girl died of internal bleeding on her wedding night after marrying a man five times her age, a social activist and two local residents said, in a case that has caused an outcry in the media and revived debate about child brides.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "On the wedding night and after intercourse, she suffered from bleeding and uterine rupture which caused her death," Othman told Reuters. "They took her to a clinic but the medics couldn't save her life."
> 
> Othman said authorities had not taken any action against the girl's family or her husband.t
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Many poor families in Yemen marry off young daughters to save on the costs of bringing up a child and earn extra money from the dowry given to the girl.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> This is very wrong and needs to stop.
Click to expand...


I had a student who was from Iraq.  This, according to her, is nothing unusual.  She said many women in the middle east have colostomies because the violent anal sex their husbands perpetrate upon them destroys their descending colon.  She told me that her family is Christian, and her father was taken out multiple times in the middle of the night and beaten to a bloody pulp.  And no, I don't have links.  I just had a person who trusted me enough to tell me these things face to face.


----------



## Osomir

syrenn said:


> as i said before.....the one and only cause for their plight is
> 
> men
> 
> and
> 
> their
> 
> dicks.



Turning the issue into a conflict of genders isn't healthy or helpful and often does more damage than it does help. It also ignores strong social reinforcement generated for the practice by women in such cultures too. 

Women tend to be some of the main supporters of their own poor social rights and ignoring that prevents you from adequately addressing the problem. Which is a shame.


----------



## Moonglow

Luckily my penis has never wanted a pre-pubesant girl.


----------



## syrenn

Moonglow said:


> Luckily my penis has never wanted a pre-pubesant girl.


----------



## Sunshine

Moonglow said:


> Luckily my penis has never wanted a pre-pubesant girl.



Something I learned early in my career is that there are a lot of men in the world who, when they look at a young girl, do not see _a young girl._ 

Our religion and our laws do not allow sexual activity with young girls, but if you knew the number of women I have worked with who were sexually abused as children and adolescents you would know that a hard dick does not have a conscience, nor an allegiance to any set of laws.   A lot of men will exempt their own kind from this, and some will even kill those who abuse the women in their own families.  But, sadly, this country is not free from the sexual exploitation of young children and adolescents.


.


----------



## Indofred

Lipush said:


> Indofred said:
> 
> 
> 
> Disgusting.
> There is no way in this world that an 8 year old child should have sexual contact of any sort.
> This bastard bloke should have his dick removed with a blunt saw.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How common is child marriage in Yemen?
Click to expand...


Too bloody common.
Their society see a girl as fair game from puberty but that's considered to be at 9 years old, dodgy at best and bloody criminal in my opinion.
However, weak laws and local custom overrides everything so girls are often married off at crazy young ages.
The same, just not quite as bad happens here but I've never seen a case of a girl less than 13 being married off.
The cause here isn't filthy men after kids (mostly) as the husband is usually little older than the wife, more the poverty that forces parents to get rid of kids as soon as possible.
I've seen several 13 to 15 year old girls get married to boys hardly ready to look after a family.
The upshot is, these new families produces kids that will get the same total lack of education so the cycle goes on.

Education is the key to this and many other problems in Indonesia and I suspect the same applied in Yemen.


----------



## syrenn

Indofred said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Indofred said:
> 
> 
> 
> Disgusting.
> There is no way in this world that an 8 year old child should have sexual contact of any sort.
> This bastard bloke should have his dick removed with a blunt saw.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How common is child marriage in Yemen?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Too bloody common.
> Their society see a girl as fair game from puberty but that's considered to be at 9 years old, dodgy at best and bloody criminal in my opinion.
> However, weak laws and local custom overrides everything so girls are often married off at crazy young ages.
> The same, just not quite as bad happens here but I've never seen a case of a girl less than 13 being married off.
> The cause here isn't filthy men after kids (mostly) as the husband is usually little older than the wife, more the poverty that forces parents to get rid of kids as soon as possible.
> I've seen several 13 to 15 year old girls get married to boys hardly ready to look after a family.
> The upshot is, these new families produces kids that will get the same total lack of education so the cycle goes on.
> 
> Education is the key to this and many other problems in Indonesia and I suspect the same applied in Yemen.
Click to expand...


Are said parents given monetary compensation for the bride?


----------



## Indofred

Moonglow said:


> Luckily my penis has never wanted a pre-pubesant girl.



In my view, sex with such a girl is a terrible perversion of pretty much everything on moral, social and religious grounds.
Morals and religions tend to be variable, depending on who's version you fancy to suit yourself but the physical inability to handle sex and the mental inability to handle a relationship remains, regardless of the other two.

Finally, to the men who do want young girls - well odd.
I really don't see how they're attracted to kids when there are exceptionally attractive, real women out there.


----------



## Hossfly

Osomir said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> 
> It's even happening in Europe, where Muslims are a minority:
> 
> *Muslim Child Brides in Britain
> *
> It is heartbreaking, even as it is unsurprising.  In Britain, the authorities are now reporting the forced marriage of girls as young as nine years old on British soil.  We are not talking about one case, but several, which take place under official protection.  We are not speaking, then, about parents or &#8220;husbands&#8221; who are being charged with a criminal offense.  The situation, in other words, is completely unacceptable and makes clear that we have a crying need for a new approach to these matters.  Government must put its foot down &#8211; and powerfully so &#8211; so that there will be no doubt as to the way in which such grotesque crimes will be addressed.
> 
> First, when I say that the marriage of nine-year-old girls in today&#8217;s Britain (and the rest of the EU, for that matter) is unsurprising, my statement is based on my own 17 years of experience in the field of immigration: forms of assault based on tradition and religion &#8211; including child marriage, forced marriage, genital mutilation, so-called honor-related offenses such as rape and murder &#8211; have become established here as a result of immigration, mostly from Muslim countries.  Instances of these offenses have been documented in countries such as Norway (where, to be sure, there have been no recorded cases of marriage to girls as young as nine, but where the marriage of an 11-year-old came to light in a TV documentary that I worked on as journalist; such cases have also been known in Sweden). The only phenomenon that has not been documented in Norway thus far is forced eating by girls before they are to be married off.  I was told about this practice by feminists in Paris in 2003, and the phenomenon had been imported into France by immigrants, mostly from Mali.  Girls are locked up and fed like geese before being married, because in their culture being fat is considered beautiful.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Luckily Gavage isn't very common anymore, and is largely found in Africa and every once in a while: Pakistan. It would also be more likely to spring up in France in Europe since the largest practicing country Mauritania is a former French colony.
> 
> A much more common concern today regarding the diet of women in the world is malnutrition and them not receiving as much food as male counterparts.
Click to expand...

You don't say???

?Girls are the world?s forgotten population?: Nine facts about child brides

Contemporary Pedophilic Islamic Marriages - WikiIslam


----------



## Roudy

Osomir said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> 
> It's even happening in Europe, where Muslims are a minority:
> 
> *Muslim Child Brides in Britain
> *
> It is heartbreaking, even as it is unsurprising.  In Britain, the authorities are now reporting the forced marriage of girls as young as nine years old on British soil.  We are not talking about one case, but several, which take place under official protection.  We are not speaking, then, about parents or &#8220;husbands&#8221; who are being charged with a criminal offense.  The situation, in other words, is completely unacceptable and makes clear that we have a crying need for a new approach to these matters.  Government must put its foot down &#8211; and powerfully so &#8211; so that there will be no doubt as to the way in which such grotesque crimes will be addressed.
> 
> First, when I say that the marriage of nine-year-old girls in today&#8217;s Britain (and the rest of the EU, for that matter) is unsurprising, my statement is based on my own 17 years of experience in the field of immigration: forms of assault based on tradition and religion &#8211; including child marriage, forced marriage, genital mutilation, so-called honor-related offenses such as rape and murder &#8211; have become established here as a result of immigration, mostly from Muslim countries.  Instances of these offenses have been documented in countries such as Norway (where, to be sure, there have been no recorded cases of marriage to girls as young as nine, but where the marriage of an 11-year-old came to light in a TV documentary that I worked on as journalist; such cases have also been known in Sweden). The only phenomenon that has not been documented in Norway thus far is forced eating by girls before they are to be married off.  I was told about this practice by feminists in Paris in 2003, and the phenomenon had been imported into France by immigrants, mostly from Mali.  Girls are locked up and fed like geese before being married, because in their culture being fat is considered beautiful.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Luckily Gavage isn't very common anymore, and is largely found in Africa and every once in a while: Pakistan. It would also be more likely to spring up in France in Europe since the largest practicing country Mauritania is a former French colony.
> 
> A much more common concern today regarding the diet of women in the world is malnutrition and them not receiving as much food as male counterparts.
Click to expand...

Nice job trying to whitewash the practice of Muslim men marrying child brides which goes back to Mohammad marrying an 8 year old. Omir.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q5t9U9r9Kfs]Pedophilia is OK in Islam - YouTube[/ame]

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RrRlsMRomtI"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RrRlsMRomtI[/ame]


----------



## S.J.

Roudy said:


> Osomir said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> 
> It's even happening in Europe, where Muslims are a minority:
> 
> *Muslim Child Brides in Britain
> *
> It is heartbreaking, even as it is unsurprising.  In Britain, the authorities are now reporting the forced marriage of girls as young as nine years old on British soil.  We are not talking about one case, but several, which take place under official protection.  We are not speaking, then, about parents or husbands who are being charged with a criminal offense.  The situation, in other words, is completely unacceptable and makes clear that we have a crying need for a new approach to these matters.  Government must put its foot down  and powerfully so  so that there will be no doubt as to the way in which such grotesque crimes will be addressed.
> 
> First, when I say that the marriage of nine-year-old girls in todays Britain (and the rest of the EU, for that matter) is unsurprising, my statement is based on my own 17 years of experience in the field of immigration: forms of assault based on tradition and religion  including child marriage, forced marriage, genital mutilation, so-called honor-related offenses such as rape and murder  have become established here as a result of immigration, mostly from Muslim countries.  Instances of these offenses have been documented in countries such as Norway (where, to be sure, there have been no recorded cases of marriage to girls as young as nine, but where the marriage of an 11-year-old came to light in a TV documentary that I worked on as journalist; such cases have also been known in Sweden). The only phenomenon that has not been documented in Norway thus far is forced eating by girls before they are to be married off.  I was told about this practice by feminists in Paris in 2003, and the phenomenon had been imported into France by immigrants, mostly from Mali.  Girls are locked up and fed like geese before being married, because in their culture being fat is considered beautiful.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Luckily Gavage isn't very common anymore, and is largely found in Africa and every once in a while: Pakistan. It would also be more likely to spring up in France in Europe since the largest practicing country Mauritania is a former French colony.
> 
> A much more common concern today regarding the diet of women in the world is malnutrition and them not receiving as much food as male counterparts.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Nice job trying to whitewash the practice of Muslim men marrying child brides which goes back to Mohammad marrying an 8 year old. Omir.
> 
> [ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q5t9U9r9Kfs]Pedophilia is OK in Islam - YouTube[/ame]
Click to expand...

She was 6, but he waited until she was 9 before he violated her.  What a guy.


----------



## Roudy

S.J. said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Osomir said:
> 
> 
> 
> Luckily Gavage isn't very common anymore, and is largely found in Africa and every once in a while: Pakistan. It would also be more likely to spring up in France in Europe since the largest practicing country Mauritania is a former French colony.
> 
> A much more common concern today regarding the diet of women in the world is malnutrition and them not receiving as much food as male counterparts.
> 
> 
> 
> Nice job trying to whitewash the practice of Muslim men marrying child brides which goes back to Mohammad marrying an 8 year old. Omir.
> 
> [ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q5t9U9r9Kfs]Pedophilia is OK in Islam - YouTube[/ame]
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> She was 6, but he waited until she was 9 before he violated her.  What a guy.
Click to expand...

Anything over 12 is considered a geezer in Islamic countries.


----------



## Osomir

Hossfly said:


> Osomir said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> 
> It's even happening in Europe, where Muslims are a minority:
> 
> *Muslim Child Brides in Britain
> *
> It is heartbreaking, even as it is unsurprising.  In Britain, the authorities are now reporting the forced marriage of girls as young as nine years old on British soil.  We are not talking about one case, but several, which take place under official protection.  We are not speaking, then, about parents or &#8220;husbands&#8221; who are being charged with a criminal offense.  The situation, in other words, is completely unacceptable and makes clear that we have a crying need for a new approach to these matters.  Government must put its foot down &#8211; and powerfully so &#8211; so that there will be no doubt as to the way in which such grotesque crimes will be addressed.
> 
> First, when I say that the marriage of nine-year-old girls in today&#8217;s Britain (and the rest of the EU, for that matter) is unsurprising, my statement is based on my own 17 years of experience in the field of immigration: forms of assault based on tradition and religion &#8211; including child marriage, forced marriage, genital mutilation, so-called honor-related offenses such as rape and murder &#8211; have become established here as a result of immigration, mostly from Muslim countries.  Instances of these offenses have been documented in countries such as Norway (where, to be sure, there have been no recorded cases of marriage to girls as young as nine, but where the marriage of an 11-year-old came to light in a TV documentary that I worked on as journalist; such cases have also been known in Sweden). The only phenomenon that has not been documented in Norway thus far is forced eating by girls before they are to be married off.  I was told about this practice by feminists in Paris in 2003, and the phenomenon had been imported into France by immigrants, mostly from Mali.  Girls are locked up and fed like geese before being married, because in their culture being fat is considered beautiful.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Luckily Gavage isn't very common anymore, and is largely found in Africa and every once in a while: Pakistan. It would also be more likely to spring up in France in Europe since the largest practicing country Mauritania is a former French colony.
> 
> A much more common concern today regarding the diet of women in the world is malnutrition and them not receiving as much food as male counterparts.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You don't say???
> 
> ?Girls are the world?s forgotten population?: Nine facts about child brides
> 
> Contemporary Pedophilic Islamic Marriages - WikiIslam
Click to expand...


You might want to look up the definition of the word gavage 

It's forced feeding, not child marriage.


----------



## Osomir

Roudy said:


> Osomir said:
> 
> 
> 
> Luckily Gavage isn't very common anymore, and is largely found in Africa and every once in a while: Pakistan. It would also be more likely to spring up in France in Europe since the largest practicing country Mauritania is a former French colony.
> 
> A much more common concern today regarding the diet of women in the world is malnutrition and them not receiving as much food as male counterparts.
> 
> 
> 
> Nice job trying to whitewash the practice of Muslim men marrying child brides which goes back to Mohammad marrying an 8 year old. Omir.
Click to expand...


You might want to look up the definition of the word gavage too. Seriously you guys have some pretty major problems with bad assumptions.


----------



## proudveteran06

Listen, Muslim Savages believe in Female Circumcision and " Honor Killings".


----------



## Roudy

Osomir said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Osomir said:
> 
> 
> 
> Luckily Gavage isn't very common anymore, and is largely found in Africa and every once in a while: Pakistan. It would also be more likely to spring up in France in Europe since the largest practicing country Mauritania is a former French colony.
> 
> A much more common concern today regarding the diet of women in the world is malnutrition and them not receiving as much food as male counterparts.
> 
> 
> 
> Nice job trying to whitewash the practice of Muslim men marrying child brides which goes back to Mohammad marrying an 8 year old. Omir.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You might want to look up the definition of the word gavage too. Seriously you guys have some pretty major problems with bad assumptions.
Click to expand...

Oh okay, my bad.  So child brides is not prevalent in Muslim countries, and it has nothing to do with Islam?  Sure thing, buddy boy.

*Sharia Law has led to the legislation of child marriage in 6 countries
*
Saudi wives can be not only pre-pubescent, but even babies, because Saudi Arabia has no minimum marriage age at all

While Sharia law courts have created a lot of controversy in Britain, they would be even more controversial if people found out that Sharia has led to the legalisation of child marriage in 6 countries. As the vast majority of people seem to be unaware of Sharia's child marriage dimension, this article only uses mainstream media articles, the UN, a major opinion poll company's Sharia law polling data, and the early biographer of Mohammed who Muslims say is the most reliable, and who states unequivocally that that Mohammed married one of his wives, 'Aisha, when she was a child as its sources.

For example, this 2008 "Times" article about forced child marriages in Nigeria, reveals that there is "fierce resistance" in its mostly Muslim states to a ban on child marriage, because they see such a ban as contrary to Sharia, which is why only one of them has agreed to a modified form of the ban (which outlaws marriage to pre-pubescent girls):

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/africa/article5248224.ece

So why do Nigerian Islamists support child marriage?

Sharia is based on "The Koran", and the "Sunnah" (the words and deeds of Mohammed), and according to Sahih al-Bukhari, who is regarded by Muslims as the most reliable early biographer of their prophet, the founder of Islam married one of his wives, 'Aisha, when she was 6, and consummated that marriage when she was 9, as volume 7, book 62, number 64 of this University of Southern California Center for Muslim-Jewish Engagement translation of Al-Bukhari reveals:

http://www.cmje.org/religious-texts/hadith/bukhari/062-sbt.php

These 4 BBC News, "New York Times", UN, and "Wall Street Journal" articles mention Islamists in Yemen, Niger, and Saudi Arabia who say that Mohammed's child bride is the reason why they are in favour of child marriage:

BBC NEWS | Middle East | Child marriage and divorce in Yemen

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/29/world/middleeast/29marriage.html

IRIN Africa | NIGER: Where childhood ends on the marriage bed | Niger | Children | Education | Gender Issues | Governance | Health & Nutrition | Human Rights 

Cleric Fights Saudi Bid to Ban Child Marriages - WSJ.com

People tend to think of Turkey as a relatively secular Muslim country, but the "San Francisco Chronicle" article about Saudi Arabian child marriage which I cited a moment ago, also mentions the fact that Turkey's Islamist government reduced the minimum marriage to 12 in 2009. The result of that law change, was of course the legalisation of forced child marriages, which is why this Turkish newspaper article discusses the case of a Syrian 12 year old girl whose family sold her to a middle aged Turkish husband, who then raped her and forced her to take drugs, which led to Turkish police having to rescue her after her Syrian family complained:

TURKEY - 12-year-old Syrian bride rescued from abuse in Turkey


----------



## Roudy

Osomir said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Osomir said:
> 
> 
> 
> Luckily Gavage isn't very common anymore, and is largely found in Africa and every once in a while: Pakistan. It would also be more likely to spring up in France in Europe since the largest practicing country Mauritania is a former French colony.
> 
> A much more common concern today regarding the diet of women in the world is malnutrition and them not receiving as much food as male counterparts.
> 
> 
> 
> Nice job trying to whitewash the practice of Muslim men marrying child brides which goes back to Mohammad marrying an 8 year old. Omir.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You might want to look up the definition of the word gavage too. Seriously you guys have some pretty major problems with bad assumptions.
Click to expand...

Oh okay, my bad.  So child brides is not prevalent in Muslim countries, and it has nothing to do with Islam?  Sure thing, buddy boy.

*Sharia Law has led to the legislation of child marriage in 6 countries
*
Saudi wives can be not only pre-pubescent, but even babies, because Saudi Arabia has no minimum marriage age at all

While Sharia law courts have created a lot of controversy in Britain, they would be even more controversial if people found out that Sharia has led to the legalisation of child marriage in 6 countries. As the vast majority of people seem to be unaware of Sharia's child marriage dimension, this article only uses mainstream media articles, the UN, a major opinion poll company's Sharia law polling data, and the early biographer of Mohammed who Muslims say is the most reliable, and who states unequivocally that that Mohammed married one of his wives, 'Aisha, when she was a child as its sources.

For example, this 2008 "Times" article about forced child marriages in Nigeria, reveals that there is "fierce resistance" in its mostly Muslim states to a ban on child marriage, because they see such a ban as contrary to Sharia, which is why only one of them has agreed to a modified form of the ban (which outlaws marriage to pre-pubescent girls):

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/africa/article5248224.ece

So why do Nigerian Islamists support child marriage?

Sharia is based on "The Koran", and the "Sunnah" (the words and deeds of Mohammed), and according to Sahih al-Bukhari, who is regarded by Muslims as the most reliable early biographer of their prophet, the founder of Islam married one of his wives, 'Aisha, when she was 6, and consummated that marriage when she was 9, as volume 7, book 62, number 64 of this University of Southern California Center for Muslim-Jewish Engagement translation of Al-Bukhari reveals:

http://www.cmje.org/religious-texts/hadith/bukhari/062-sbt.php

These 4 BBC News, "New York Times", UN, and "Wall Street Journal" articles mention Islamists in Yemen, Niger, and Saudi Arabia who say that Mohammed's child bride is the reason why they are in favour of child marriage:

BBC NEWS | Middle East | Child marriage and divorce in Yemen

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/29/world/middleeast/29marriage.html

IRIN Africa | NIGER: Where childhood ends on the marriage bed | Niger | Children | Education | Gender Issues | Governance | Health & Nutrition | Human Rights 

Cleric Fights Saudi Bid to Ban Child Marriages - WSJ.com

People tend to think of Turkey as a relatively secular Muslim country, but the "San Francisco Chronicle" article about Saudi Arabian child marriage which I cited a moment ago, also mentions the fact that Turkey's Islamist government reduced the minimum marriage to 12 in 2009. The result of that law change, was of course the legalisation of forced child marriages, which is why this Turkish newspaper article discusses the case of a Syrian 12 year old girl whose family sold her to a middle aged Turkish husband, who then raped her and forced her to take drugs, which led to Turkish police having to rescue her after her Syrian family complained:

TURKEY - 12-year-old Syrian bride rescued from abuse in Turkey


----------



## Osomir

Roudy said:


> Oh okay, my bad.  So child brides is not prevalent in Muslim countries, and it has nothing to do with Islam?  Sure thing, buddy boy.



Gavage is the practice of forced feeding. Nice off topic copy and paste ramble though.


----------



## S.J.

Let's face it, Islam is a perverse religion.


----------



## Roudy

Osomir said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Oh okay, my bad.  So child brides is not prevalent in Muslim countries, and it has nothing to do with Islam?  Sure thing, buddy boy.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Gavage is the practice of forced feeding. Nice off topic copy and paste ramble though.
Click to expand...


That's not the topic of this thread. The topic is child brides.  Maybe that's what's you'd like to divert the subject to, considering its prevalence in the Muslim world due to prophet Mohammad marrying an 8 year old.


----------



## Osomir

Roudy said:


> [
> That's not the topic of this thread. The topic is child brides.  Maybe that's what's you'd like to divert the subject to, considering its prevalence in the Muslim world due to prophet Mohammad marrying an 8 year old.



You're the one who brought up the issue of gavage there buddy.


----------



## Hossfly

Osomir said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> 
> [
> That's not the topic of this thread. The topic is child brides.  Maybe that's what's you'd like to divert the subject to, considering its prevalence in the Muslim world due to prophet Mohammad marrying an 8 year old.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You're the one who brought up the issue of gavage there buddy.
Click to expand...

You're the one trying to confuse the issue and steer away from child brides, Old Bean. We know how to employ a lexicon.


----------



## Roudy

Osomir said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> 
> [
> That's not the topic of this thread. The topic is child brides.  Maybe that's what's you'd like to divert the subject to, considering its prevalence in the Muslim world due to prophet Mohammad marrying an 8 year old.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You're the one who brought up the issue of gavage there buddy.
Click to expand...

It was part of a general article that discussed abuse of children. 

Having difficulty figuring out the topic?  What's the title of this thread?  Oh, that's right, it's....
****"Child bride in Yemen dies of internal bleeding on wedding night"****


----------



## Roudy

Hossfly said:


> Osomir said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> 
> [
> That's not the topic of this thread. The topic is child brides.  Maybe that's what's you'd like to divert the subject to, considering its prevalence in the Muslim world due to prophet Mohammad marrying an 8 year old.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You're the one who brought up the issue of gavage there buddy.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You're the one trying to confuse the issue and steer away from child brides, Old Bean. We know how to employ a lexicon.
Click to expand...

Typical Islamist sympathizer diversionary tactics.


----------



## Osomir

Hossfly said:


> You're the one trying to confuse the issue and steer away from child brides, Old Bean. We know how to employ a lexicon.



Except I've done no such thing. I made one post about it in direct reply to someone who mentioned it and then continued to discuss child marriage.

Honestly, how insecure are you guys?


----------



## Osomir

Roudy said:


> Having difficulty figuring out the topic?  What's the title of this thread?  Oh, that's right, it's....
> ****"Child bride in Yemen dies of internal bleeding on wedding night"****



And I have made several posts responding to that. Once again, you're the one who brought up the issue of gavage. Just because you got confused and misread my post doesn't mean you get to throw a fit


----------



## Moonglow

The practice of child brides is not a religious issue, it is a cultural issue.
The Chinese practiced it for centuries as has other cultures. The mere fact that women were regarded as property and of less value than horses promoted the idea that they could be bought or had to have dowries to allow their worth to the user.


----------



## Osomir

Moonglow said:


> The practice of child brides is not a religious issue, it is a cultural issue.
> The Chinese practiced it for centuries as has other cultures. The mere fact that women were regarded as property and of less value than horses promoted the idea that they could be bought or had to have dowries to allow their worth to the user.



Careful, or Roudy and Hossfly might accuse you of being a secret Muslim.


----------



## Moonglow

> Like France, many other countries, increased the age of consent to 13 in the 19th century. Nations, such as Portugal, Spain, Denmark and the Swiss cantons, that adopted or mirrored the Napoleonic code likewise initially set the age of consent at 10-12 years and then raised it to between 13 and 16 years in the second half of the 19th century. In 1875, England raised the age to 13 years; an act of sexual intercourse with a girl younger than 13 was a felony*. In the U.S., each state determined its own criminal law and age of consent ranged from 10 to 12 years of age.* U.S. laws did not change in the wake of England's shift. Nor did Anglo-American law apply to boys.



Children and Youth in History | Age of Consent Laws


----------



## Lipush

Indofred said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Indofred said:
> 
> 
> 
> Disgusting.
> There is no way in this world that an 8 year old child should have sexual contact of any sort.
> This bastard bloke should have his dick removed with a blunt saw.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How common is child marriage in Yemen?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Too bloody common.
> Their society see a girl as fair game from puberty but that's considered to be at 9 years old, dodgy at best and bloody criminal in my opinion.
> However, weak laws and local custom overrides everything so girls are often married off at crazy young ages.
> The same, just not quite as bad happens here but I've never seen a case of a girl less than 13 being married off.
> The cause here isn't filthy men after kids (mostly) as the husband is usually little older than the wife, more the poverty that forces parents to get rid of kids as soon as possible.
> I've seen several 13 to 15 year old girls get married to boys hardly ready to look after a family.
> The upshot is, these new families produces kids that will get the same total lack of education so the cycle goes on.
> 
> Education is the key to this and many other problems in Indonesia and I suspect the same applied in Yemen.
Click to expand...


Thanks for the informative answer.

I wonder why its so common in some states especially.

At one time, It was common among the Georgian community in Israel, they used to marry them when they were 14-16, but starting the 90's, our government decided to take measures against this despicable phenomenon.

I don't know how common it is in the Arab community, but as far as I know, the 'trend' is decreasing, thankfully.

I guess you're right, about the poverty part, but I find it hard to understand why on God's green earth people who cannot even keep themselves alive, bring kids to the world, to be miserable just like them. I know it sounds horrible to say that, but that is how i feel sometimes.


----------



## Moonglow

Osomir said:


> Moonglow said:
> 
> 
> 
> The practice of child brides is not a religious issue, it is a cultural issue.
> The Chinese practiced it for centuries as has other cultures. The mere fact that women were regarded as property and of less value than horses promoted the idea that they could be bought or had to have dowries to allow their worth to the user.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Careful, or Roudy and Hossfly might accuse you of being a secret Muslim.
Click to expand...


Fortunately I associate with no form of religion.


----------



## Moonglow

Lipush said:


> Indofred said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> 
> How common is child marriage in Yemen?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Too bloody common.
> Their society see a girl as fair game from puberty but that's considered to be at 9 years old, dodgy at best and bloody criminal in my opinion.
> However, weak laws and local custom overrides everything so girls are often married off at crazy young ages.
> The same, just not quite as bad happens here but I've never seen a case of a girl less than 13 being married off.
> The cause here isn't filthy men after kids (mostly) as the husband is usually little older than the wife, more the poverty that forces parents to get rid of kids as soon as possible.
> I've seen several 13 to 15 year old girls get married to boys hardly ready to look after a family.
> The upshot is, these new families produces kids that will get the same total lack of education so the cycle goes on.
> 
> Education is the key to this and many other problems in Indonesia and I suspect the same applied in Yemen.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Thanks for the informative answer.
> 
> I wonder why its so common in some states especially.
> 
> At one time, It was common among the Georgian community in Israel, they used to marry them when they were 14-16, but starting the 90's, our government decided to take measures against this despicable phenomenon.
> 
> I don't know how common it is in the Arab community, but as far as I know, the 'trend' is decreasing, thankfully.
> 
> I guess you're right, about the poverty part, but I find it hard to understand why on God's *green earth people who cannot even keep themselves alive, bring kids to the world, to be miserable just like them.* I know it sounds horrible to say that, but that is how i feel sometimes.
Click to expand...



Biological responses for reproduction.


----------



## Lipush

Moonglow said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Indofred said:
> 
> 
> 
> Too bloody common.
> Their society see a girl as fair game from puberty but that's considered to be at 9 years old, dodgy at best and bloody criminal in my opinion.
> However, weak laws and local custom overrides everything so girls are often married off at crazy young ages.
> The same, just not quite as bad happens here but I've never seen a case of a girl less than 13 being married off.
> The cause here isn't filthy men after kids (mostly) as the husband is usually little older than the wife, more the poverty that forces parents to get rid of kids as soon as possible.
> I've seen several 13 to 15 year old girls get married to boys hardly ready to look after a family.
> The upshot is, these new families produces kids that will get the same total lack of education so the cycle goes on.
> 
> Education is the key to this and many other problems in Indonesia and I suspect the same applied in Yemen.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks for the informative answer.
> 
> I wonder why its so common in some states especially.
> 
> At one time, It was common among the Georgian community in Israel, they used to marry them when they were 14-16, but starting the 90's, our government decided to take measures against this despicable phenomenon.
> 
> I don't know how common it is in the Arab community, but as far as I know, the 'trend' is decreasing, thankfully.
> 
> I guess you're right, about the poverty part, but I find it hard to understand why on God's *green earth people who cannot even keep themselves alive, bring kids to the world, to be miserable just like them.* I know it sounds horrible to say that, but that is how i feel sometimes.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Biological responses for reproduction.
Click to expand...


Yeah, I guess.


----------



## Hossfly

Moonglow said:


> Osomir said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Moonglow said:
> 
> 
> 
> The practice of child brides is not a religious issue, it is a cultural issue.
> The Chinese practiced it for centuries as has other cultures. The mere fact that women were regarded as property and of less value than horses promoted the idea that they could be bought or had to have dowries to allow their worth to the user.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Careful, or Roudy and Hossfly might accuse you of being a secret Muslim.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Fortunately I associate with no form of religion.
Click to expand...

We'll pray for you that you'll depart from your heathen ways.


----------



## Osomir

Moonglow said:


> Osomir said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Moonglow said:
> 
> 
> 
> The practice of child brides is not a religious issue, it is a cultural issue.
> The Chinese practiced it for centuries as has other cultures. The mere fact that women were regarded as property and of less value than horses promoted the idea that they could be bought or had to have dowries to allow their worth to the user.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Careful, or Roudy and Hossfly might accuse you of being a secret Muslim.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Fortunately I associate with no form of religion.
Click to expand...


Nor do I, that doesn't seem to be a hindrance for them though.


----------



## boedicca

The poor baby.

If anything highlights the insanity of believing in "multi-culturalism", this does.


----------



## Osomir

Moonglow said:


> Biological responses for reproduction.



I don't know if I would agree with that. I mean sure it is around in most of us, but that wouldn't really account for the diversity in the number of children produced. 

I would be more apt to point to poverty, and to lack of women's rights, primarily access to education and job markets.


----------



## Roudy

Osomir said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Having difficulty figuring out the topic?  What's the title of this thread?  Oh, that's right, it's....
> ****"Child bride in Yemen dies of internal bleeding on wedding night"****
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And I have made several posts responding to that. Once again, you're the one who brought up the issue of gavage. Just because you got confused and misread my post doesn't mean you get to throw a fit
Click to expand...

I already explained that it was part of an article on child abuse.  You then stuck to it like flies to ......  
Why shouldn't you? 
Don't forget your mission: make  Islam and Muslims look as good as possible.  That includes using these kinds of diversionary tactics. 

Ever heard of you can put lipstick on a pig, but its still a pig?  Keep putting that lipstick on, Omir.


----------



## Osomir

Roudy said:


> I already explained that it was part of an article on child abuse.



And I responded to it with one post. Deal with it. if anything your ranting and raving and accusations are more of a distraction from the topic of this thread than a single post that I made about one of the aspects of child marriage that you mentioned.


----------



## Roudy

Osomir said:


> Moonglow said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Osomir said:
> 
> 
> 
> Careful, or Roudy and Hossfly might accuse you of being a secret Muslim.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Fortunately I associate with no form of religion.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Nor do I, that doesn't seem to be a hindrance for them though.
Click to expand...

Heard that one before too.


----------



## Osomir

Roudy said:


> Osomir said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Moonglow said:
> 
> 
> 
> Fortunately I associate with no form of religion.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Nor do I, that doesn't seem to be a hindrance for them though.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Heard that one before too.
Click to expand...


I rest my case.


----------



## Roudy

Osomir said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> 
> I already explained that it was part of an article on child abuse.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And I responded to it with one post. Deal with it. if anything your ranting and raving and accusations are more of a distraction from the topic of this thread than a single post that I made about one of the aspects of child marriage that you mentioned.
Click to expand...

Okay let's talk about garage then, something that's not prevalent in Muslim countries <Wink>
Anything to change the topic while accusing others of doing so.


----------



## Roudy

Osomir said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Osomir said:
> 
> 
> 
> Nor do I, that doesn't seem to be a hindrance for them though.
> 
> 
> 
> Heard that one before too.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I rest my case.
Click to expand...

Major fail.


----------



## Moonglow

Osomir said:


> Moonglow said:
> 
> 
> 
> Biological responses for reproduction.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I don't know if I would agree with that. I mean sure it is around in most of us, but that wouldn't really account for the diversity in the number of children produced.
> 
> I would be more apt to point to poverty, and to lack of women's rights, primarily access to education and job markets.
Click to expand...


Poverty is abject to those in existence. Most humans throughout history have lived in poverty, yet children are still produced.
Predetermined biological inherent programming does exist in humans.


----------



## Moonglow

Roudy said:


> Osomir said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> 
> I already explained that it was part of an article on child abuse.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And I responded to it with one post. Deal with it. if anything your ranting and raving and accusations are more of a distraction from the topic of this thread than a single post that I made about one of the aspects of child marriage that you mentioned.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Okay let's talk about garage then, something that's not prevalent in Muslim countries <Wink>
> Anything to change the topic while accusing others of doing so.
Click to expand...


Why is there such a lack of toilet paper in the ME?


----------



## Osomir

Roudy said:


> Okay let's talk about garage then, something that's not prevalent in Muslim countries <Wink>
> Anything to change the topic while accusing others of doing so.



1.) it's gavage

2.) I said that it was prevalent in Mauritania, which is a Muslim majority country  And I mentioned its periodic use in Pakistan which is also a Muslim majority country, so I'm not sure why you're going on about your above quote. It seems pretty dishonest on your part.


----------



## Roudy

Moonglow said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Osomir said:
> 
> 
> 
> And I responded to it with one post. Deal with it. if anything your ranting and raving and accusations are more of a distraction from the topic of this thread than a single post that I made about one of the aspects of child marriage that you mentioned.
> 
> 
> 
> Okay let's talk about garage then, something that's not prevalent in Muslim countries <Wink>
> Anything to change the topic while accusing others of doing so.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Why is there such a lack of toilet paper in the ME?
Click to expand...

Islamic toilet hygiene. Look it up. LOL


----------



## Roudy

Osomir said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Okay let's talk about garage then, something that's not prevalent in Muslim countries <Wink>
> Anything to change the topic while accusing others of doing so.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 1.) it's gavage
> 
> 2.) I said that it was prevalent in Mauritania, which is a Muslim majority country  And I mentioned its periodic use in Pakistan which is also a Muslim majority country, so I'm not sure why you're going on about your above quote. It seems pretty dishonest on your part.
Click to expand...

Kindly do tell us again, What exactly WAS your point?


----------



## Osomir

Moonglow said:


> Osomir said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Moonglow said:
> 
> 
> 
> Biological responses for reproduction.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I don't know if I would agree with that. I mean sure it is around in most of us, but that wouldn't really account for the diversity in the number of children produced.
> 
> I would be more apt to point to poverty, and to lack of women's rights, primarily access to education and job markets.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Poverty is abject to those in existence. Most humans throughout history have lived in poverty, yet children are still produced.
> Predetermined biological inherent programming does exist in humans.
Click to expand...


I agree, but income and child births are also inversely correlated in general. Children are often treated as inferior goods are in economics. As income goes up, number of children tend to drop. 

Now I wouldn't suggest that as the only causal variable. Obviously there are well off people who have large families for personal or religious reasons, but that isn't statistically as large of a factor. Another seemingly large factor though is women having access to their own income, which gives them more control over family planning and creates economic incentives for them to be working rather than staying at home tending children.  It also allows for more discretionary spending on things like birth control.


----------



## Osomir

Roudy said:


> Osomir said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Okay let's talk about garage then, something that's not prevalent in Muslim countries <Wink>
> Anything to change the topic while accusing others of doing so.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 1.) it's gavage
> 
> 2.) I said that it was prevalent in Mauritania, which is a Muslim majority country  And I mentioned its periodic use in Pakistan which is also a Muslim majority country, so I'm not sure why you're going on about your above quote. It seems pretty dishonest on your part.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Kindly do tell us again, What exactly WAS your point?
Click to expand...


My point was to respond to the imagery of gavage that you brought up in your post.


----------



## Hossfly

Roudy said:


> Osomir said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Okay let's talk about garage then, something that's not prevalent in Muslim countries <Wink>
> Anything to change the topic while accusing others of doing so.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 1.) it's gavage
> 
> 2.) I said that it was prevalent in Mauritania, which is a Muslim majority country  And I mentioned its periodic use in Pakistan which is also a Muslim majority country, so I'm not sure why you're going on about your above quote. It seems pretty dishonest on your part.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Kindly do tell us again, What exactly WAS your point?
Click to expand...

I have an interesting article on garage and I'll post it when I find it.


----------



## Roudy

Sallow said:


> Osomir said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> S.J. said:
> 
> 
> 
> Gotta be a muslim.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In Yemen? Most likely. Child marriage happens in many non-Islamic majority countries as well though (it is a big problem in parts of Southern Africa, and the rest of Sub-Saharan Africa for that matter). It is also a large problem in India.
> 
> *Child marriage is one of those nasty side effects of weak governmental institutions coupled with extreme poverty. It's horrible stuff*.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You cannot emphasize this more.
> 
> Part of what government does is put into place mechanism to protect those that can't protect themselves.
> 
> Namely, children.
> 
> That said, this is unbelievably sad and ridiculously disgusting.
Click to expand...

Child marriage was allowed in Iran when Islamists took over.  It's not a "poor" country.


----------



## Roudy

Osomir said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Osomir said:
> 
> 
> 
> 1.) it's gavage
> 
> 2.) I said that it was prevalent in Mauritania, which is a Muslim majority country  And I mentioned its periodic use in Pakistan which is also a Muslim majority country, so I'm not sure why you're going on about your above quote. It seems pretty dishonest on your part.
> 
> 
> 
> Kindly do tell us again, What exactly WAS your point?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> My point was to respond to the imagery of gavage that you brought up in your post.
Click to expand...

No your point was to first whitewash the Islamic practice of child brides prevalent in Muslim countries by saying the following:

SJ. (referring to Omir): Gotta be a muslim.
Omir (like he doesn't know): In Yemen? Most likely. Child marriage happens in many non-Islamic majority countries as well though (it is a big problem in parts of Southern Africa, and the rest of Sub-Saharan Africa for that matter). It is also a large problem in India. 

Then Omir responded with this crap to my article about Muslim Child brides in Great Britain:

Roudy: It's even happening in Europe, where Muslims are a minority:

Muslim Child Brides in Britain

It is heartbreaking, even as it is unsurprising. In Britain, the authorities are now reporting the forced marriage of girls as young as nine years old on British soil. We are not talking about one case, but several, which take place under official protection. We are not speaking, then, about parents or &#8220;husbands&#8221; who are being charged with a criminal offense. The situation, in other words, is completely unacceptable and makes clear that we have a crying need for a new approach to these matters. Government must put its foot down &#8211; and powerfully so &#8211; so that there will be no doubt as to the way in which such grotesque crimes will be addressed.

First, when I say that the marriage of nine-year-old girls in today&#8217;s Britain (and the rest of the EU, for that matter) is unsurprising, my statement is based on my own 17 years of experience in the field of immigration: forms of assault based on tradition and religion &#8211; including child marriage, forced marriage, genital mutilation, so-called honor-related offenses such as rape and murder &#8211; have become established here as a result of immigration, mostly from Muslim countries. Instances of these offenses have been documented in countries such as Norway (where, to be sure, there have been no recorded cases of marriage to girls as young as nine, but where the marriage of an 11-year-old came to light in a TV documentary that I worked on as journalist; such cases have also been known in Sweden). The only phenomenon that has not been documented in Norway thus far is forced eating by girls before they are to be married off. I was told about this practice by feminists in Paris in 2003, and the phenomenon had been imported into France by immigrants, mostly from Mali. Girls are locked up and fed like geese before being married, because in their culture being fat is considered beautiful.

Omir (diverting topic): Luckily Gavage isn't very common anymore, and is largely found in Africa and every once in a while: Pakistan. It would also be more likely to spring up in France in Europe since the largest practicing country Mauritania is a former French colony. 

A much more common concern today regarding the diet of women in the world is malnutrition and them not receiving as much food as male counterparts.

Ha ha ha.  Who do you think you're fooling?


----------



## Osomir

Roudy said:


> No your point was to first whitewash the Islamic practice of child brides prevalent in Muslim countries



No, it was to address your mention of gavage. Not sure why you have such a fetish for assigning ulterior motives to posters, but you might want to get that complex looked at.



> Omir (like he doesn't know): In Yemen? Most likely. Child marriage happens in many non-Islamic majority countries as well though (it is a big problem in parts of Southern Africa, and the rest of Sub-Saharan Africa for that matter). It is also a large problem in India.



Right, because child marriage is a major problem all over the world and in many different religious majority countries. Looking at it simply in terms of religion rather ignores most cases of child marriage in the world. it is not a particularly strong statistical variable for explaining incidents of child marriage across regions. 

It's why i listed more relevant causal variables in my other posts such as: poverty, weak governmental institutions, and the various issues that go along with lower rights for women. For the record the World Bank data on the issue agrees with me. I wrote my thesis on women's rights within economic development.


----------



## Hossfly

Osomir said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> 
> No your point was to first whitewash the Islamic practice of child brides prevalent in Muslim countries
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No, it was to address your mention of gavage. Not sure why you have such a fetish for assigning ulterior motives to posters, but you might want to get that complex looked at.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Omir (like he doesn't know): In Yemen? Most likely. Child marriage happens in many non-Islamic majority countries as well though (it is a big problem in parts of Southern Africa, and the rest of Sub-Saharan Africa for that matter). It is also a large problem in India.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Right, because child marriage is a major problem all over the world and in many different religious majority countries. Looking at it simply in terms of religion rather ignores most cases of child marriage in the world. it is not a particularly strong statistical variable for explaining incidents of child marriage across regions.
> 
> It's why i listed more relevant causal variables in my other posts such as: poverty, weak governmental institutions, and the various issues that go along with lower rights for women. For the record the World Bank data on the issue agrees with me. I wrote my thesis on women's rights within economic development.
Click to expand...

Then, Miss Professor Osomir, perhaps you should travel throughout many countries of  Europe and inform the Muslim parents that since they are not in dire poverty living in these countries and get benefits to help them, they should not be marrying their daughters off so young.   In one of these countries (I believe England), young girls have been instructed to put spoons in their underwear so that alarms will go off at the airport when their parents are sending them back to their native country such as Pakistan to be married during school vacation (many to their cousins).  This way the girls can be pulled aside and spoken to without their parents present.   Can you imagine how helpful, Miss Osomir can be in the plight of these young girls who certainly do not want to be married so young?  Trying to teach everyone what she learned in her classes is really not that productive.


----------



## Roudy

Osomir said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> 
> No your point was to first whitewash the Islamic practice of child brides prevalent in Muslim countries
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No, it was to address your mention of gavage. Not sure why you have such a fetish for assigning ulterior motives to posters, but you might want to get that complex looked at.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Omir (like he doesn't know): In Yemen? Most likely. Child marriage happens in many non-Islamic majority countries as well though (it is a big problem in parts of Southern Africa, and the rest of Sub-Saharan Africa for that matter). It is also a large problem in India.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Right, because child marriage is a major problem all over the world and in many different religious majority countries. Looking at it simply in terms of religion rather ignores most cases of child marriage in the world. it is not a particularly strong statistical variable for explaining incidents of child marriage across regions.
> 
> It's why i listed more relevant causal variables in my other posts such as: poverty, weak governmental institutions, and the various issues that go along with lower rights for women. For the record the World Bank data on the issue agrees with me. I wrote my thesis on women's rights within economic development.
Click to expand...

Nobody is denying that is EXCLUSIVE, but...you conveniently skip over the fact that in the case of Islam religion has everything to do with it, because their prophet Mohammad at the age of 54 got engaged to a six year old and then married her at the age of 8 (tell me it ain't so, pedophile rapist for a prophet?), which is why marrying girls at the age of 8 or 9 is both legal in many Muslim countries, and acceptable culturally.  Even in the West, where it is against the law they are doing it.  In those cases economic situation has nothing to do with it.  

You seem to have difficulty admitting this.


----------



## Osomir

Roudy said:


> Nobody is denying that is EXCLUSIVE



It isn't even a simple matter of exclusivity. Simply going "LOL Islam" ignores the vast differences in child marriage rates and marriage institutions across the Islamic world. 

It's dishonest. Statistically speaking religion isn't a very robust explanatory variable for such practices, and once again, the World Bank data on the subject agrees with me. 



> but...you conveniently skip over the fact that in the case of Islam religion has everything to do with it, because their prophet Mohammad at the age of 54 got engaged to a six year old and then married her at the age of 8 (tell me it ain't so, pedophile rapist for a prophet?)



The only real reason to believe that is if you hold the hadiths from the Muslim and Bukhari collections to be infallible cannon. I don't, and none of the early biographies of Muhammad agree on Aisha's age. Once again you're allowing your hatred to make you intellectually dishonest. 



> which is why marrying girls at the age of 8 or 9 is both legal in many Muslim countries, and acceptable culturally.



That can be true when those hadiths are invoked as a basis to form legal ruling, but it isn't a constant across Islamic regions, nor is it a mandate of Islam nor does Islam have to diminish in order for Islamic countries to get rid of child marriage. You are setting up a false enemy to tilt, and in doing so are doing the child brides of the world no favors. In fact, it's down right selfish of you.


----------



## Osomir

Hossfly said:


> Then, Miss Professor Osomir, perhaps you should travel throughout many countries of  Europe and inform the Muslim parents that since they are not in dire poverty living in these countries and get benefits to help them, they should not be marrying their daughters off so young.   In one of these countries (I believe England), young girls have been instructed to put spoons in their underwear so that alarms will go off at the airport when their parents are sending them back to their native country such as Pakistan to be married during school vacation (many to their cousins).  This way the girls can be pulled aside and spoken to without their parents present.   Can you imagine how helpful, Miss Osomir can be in the plight of these young girls who certainly do not want to be married so young?  Trying to teach everyone what she learned in her classes is really not that productive.



Not sure what point it is you are trying to make, but cultural norms have long been sticky in the area of migration. We see that in women's issues all of the time, all over the world, and with all sorts of demographics. For example first generation Indian immigrants in the US still (statistically generally speaking) culturally favor male babies over female and will seek to have male children over female ones. Such proclivities diminish over time and successive generations. People don't instantaneously change when they change locations.


----------



## syrenn

Osomir said:


> Not sure what point it is you are trying to make, but cultural norms have long been sticky in the area of migration. We see that in women's issues all of the time, all over the world, and with all sorts of demographics. For example first generation Indian immigrants in the US still (statistically generally speaking) culturally favor male babies over female and will seek to have male children over female ones. Such proclivities diminish over time and successive generations. People don't instantaneously change when they change locations.




so again.... it is not about poverty or governments. Glad to see you agree. 

it 

is

about

men

and 

their 

dicks.


----------



## Osomir

syrenn said:


> so again.... it is not about poverty or governments. Glad to see you agree.
> 
> it
> 
> is
> 
> about
> 
> men
> 
> and
> 
> their
> 
> dicks.



And once again you do the women of the world a great disservice by ignoring the intricacies of their plight.


----------



## toastman

This is the most disgusting and vile thing I have ever read. The parents are just as guilty as the groom. 

He doesn't even deserve to be called a groom, more like a rapist.


----------



## boedicca

toastman said:


> This is the most disgusting and vile thing I have ever read. The parents are just as guilty as the groom.
> 
> He doesn't even deserve to be called a groom, more like a rapist.




Exactly like a rapist.

There is no way that an eight year old child consents to such treatment.


----------



## syrenn

Osomir said:


> syrenn said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> so again.... it is not about poverty or governments. Glad to see you agree.
> 
> it
> 
> is
> 
> about
> 
> men
> 
> and
> 
> their
> 
> dicks.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And once again you do the women of the world a great disservice by ignoring the intricacies of their plight.
Click to expand...



so do you by not admitting that muslims have serous issues with this plight....


----------



## Indofred

syrenn said:


> Indofred said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> 
> How common is child marriage in Yemen?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Too bloody common.
> Their society see a girl as fair game from puberty but that's considered to be at 9 years old, dodgy at best and bloody criminal in my opinion.
> However, weak laws and local custom overrides everything so girls are often married off at crazy young ages.
> The same, just not quite as bad happens here but I've never seen a case of a girl less than 13 being married off.
> The cause here isn't filthy men after kids (mostly) as the husband is usually little older than the wife, more the poverty that forces parents to get rid of kids as soon as possible.
> I've seen several 13 to 15 year old girls get married to boys hardly ready to look after a family.
> The upshot is, these new families produces kids that will get the same total lack of education so the cycle goes on.
> 
> Education is the key to this and many other problems in Indonesia and I suspect the same applied in Yemen.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Are said parents given monetary compensation for the bride?
Click to expand...


In Yemen, I have no idea (I'd have to google) but in Indonesia, no.
The Groom's family pay for the wedding and all costs incurred out here including a gift of money to the bride, not her parents.

The idea of the gift is so she may set up a home as she likes but nothing is given to her family outside hospitality.
One note, the two families are then considered to be one. Communities here are very close and families stick together. When my wife talks about 'cousins', it may well be her grandfather's wife's brother's grandson.


----------



## Roudy

Osomir said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Nobody is denying that is EXCLUSIVE
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It isn't even a simple matter of exclusivity. Simply going "LOL Islam" ignores the vast differences in child marriage rates and marriage institutions across the Islamic world.
> 
> It's dishonest. Statistically speaking religion isn't a very robust explanatory variable for such practices, and once again, the World Bank data on the subject agrees with me.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> but...you conveniently skip over the fact that in the case of Islam religion has everything to do with it, because their prophet Mohammad at the age of 54 got engaged to a six year old and then married her at the age of 8 (tell me it ain't so, pedophile rapist for a prophet?)
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The only real reason to believe that is if you hold the hadiths from the Muslim and Bukhari collections to be infallible cannon. I don't, and none of the early biographies of Muhammad agree on Aisha's age. Once again you're allowing your hatred to make you intellectually dishonest.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> which is why marrying girls at the age of 8 or 9 is both legal in many Muslim countries, and acceptable culturally.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> That can be true when those hadiths are invoked as a basis to form legal ruling, but it isn't a constant across Islamic regions, nor is it a mandate of Islam nor does Islam have to diminish in order for Islamic countries to get rid of child marriage. You are setting up a false enemy to tilt, and in doing so are doing the child brides of the world no favors. In fact, it's down right selfish of you.
Click to expand...

Idiot it is not up to me and you, it is what Muslims believe, and they believe its acceptable because their prophet did so.  These are all false comparisons and unrelated statistics in a futile attempt to whitewash obvious problems with Muslim culture, which has absolutely NOTHING to do with economics. It's just plain old pigheaded religious based chauvinism promoted by Islam since the 7th century. 

I would use that "thesis" on the plight of women as toilet paper.  Phony baloney.


----------



## Osomir

syrenn said:


> so do you by not admitting that muslims have serous issues with this plight....



I think that humans have a serious issue with this plight, and find it shallow and counter productive to look at only microcosms of the issue when addressing it


----------



## Osomir

Roudy said:


> Idiot it is not up to me and you, it is what Muslims believe, and they believe its acceptable because their prophet did so.  These are all false comparisons and unrelated statistics in a futile attempt to whitewash obvious problems with Muslim culture, which has absolutely NOTHING to do with economics. It's just plain old pigheaded religious based chauvinism promoted by Islam since the 7th century.
> 
> I would use that "thesis" on the plight of women as toilet paper.  Phony baloney.



If Islam is the main factor for child marriage then how do you explain the asymmetries in prevalence rates across Islamic populations?

And how do you explain the widespread practice of child marriage within non-Islamic populations?

As a side note, child marriage predates Islam.


----------



## Uncensored2008

Indofred said:


> Disgusting.
> There is no way in this world that an 8 year old child should have sexual contact of any sort.
> This bastard bloke should have his dick removed with a blunt saw.



Yeah, Muhammad waited until Aisha turned 9.....


----------



## Osomir

Uncensored2008 said:


> Indofred said:
> 
> 
> 
> Disgusting.
> There is no way in this world that an 8 year old child should have sexual contact of any sort.
> This bastard bloke should have his dick removed with a blunt saw.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, Muhammad waited until Aisha turned 9.....
Click to expand...


Only if you hold the Sahih Muslim and Sahih Bukhari to be cannon. Are you secretly a Sunni Muslim?


----------



## Hossfly

Osomir said:


> Hossfly said:
> 
> 
> 
> Then, Miss Professor Osomir, perhaps you should travel throughout many countries of  Europe and inform the Muslim parents that since they are not in dire poverty living in these countries and get benefits to help them, they should not be marrying their daughters off so young.   In one of these countries (I believe England), young girls have been instructed to put spoons in their underwear so that alarms will go off at the airport when their parents are sending them back to their native country such as Pakistan to be married during school vacation (many to their cousins).  This way the girls can be pulled aside and spoken to without their parents present.   Can you imagine how helpful, Miss Osomir can be in the plight of these young girls who certainly do not want to be married so young?  Trying to teach everyone what she learned in her classes is really not that productive.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Not sure what point it is you are trying to make, but cultural norms have long been sticky in the area of migration. We see that in women's issues all of the time, all over the world, and with all sorts of demographics. For example first generation Indian immigrants in the US still (statistically generally speaking) culturally favor male babies over female and will seek to have male children over female ones. Such proclivities diminish over time and successive generations. People don't instantaneously change when they change locations.
Click to expand...

Why, Miss Osimir, you first wanted us to believe that the marrying of young girls was because of poverty, now you are saying it is part of the culture (since of course when these people migrate to the Western world they do not starve).  It is very nice that you are an educated young Muslim woman and had the opportunity to get ahead in your studies (although we don't know if you are allowed to work), but too many young girls are being forced into marriages they do not want or are not ready for.  As one Muslim cleric in Nigeria has said (except he seems to close his eyes to his fellow Muslims consummating the marriage before it is time)........
On the controversial Muslim marriage to girls, he said no amount of blackmail would intimidate Muslims into doing the wrong thing on the controversial early marriage to girls, as Islam did not fix any age for marriage, adding that a married girl does not mean that the husband would be having sexual intercourse with the bride, until she reaches puberty, as witnessed with the marriage of Prophet Muhammad to Nana Aisha.


----------



## Roudy

Osomir said:


> Uncensored2008 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Indofred said:
> 
> 
> 
> Disgusting.
> There is no way in this world that an 8 year old child should have sexual contact of any sort.
> This bastard bloke should have his dick removed with a blunt saw.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, Muhammad waited until Aisha turned 9.....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Only if you hold the Sahih Muslim and Sahih Bukhari to be cannon. Are you secretly a Sunni Muslim?
Click to expand...

Apparently that's what Muslims believe.  And use it as their justification and model for marrying 8 or 9 years olds.  

For some reason Omir has a hard time admitting anything negative abut Muslims or Islam.  I wonder why.


----------



## Osomir

Hossfly said:


> Why, Miss Osimir, you first wanted us to believe that the marrying of young girls was because of poverty



1.) culture and social practices are often shaped by socio-economic status and thus poverty in the first place.

2.) I listed several reasons including poverty, weak governmental institutions, and women's rights issues.  



> It is very nice that you are an educated young Muslim woman and had the opportunity to get ahead in your studies (although we don't know if you are allowed to work)



I'm neither a woman, or a Muslim there champ. Once again your assumptions don't serve you very well.



> as Islam did not fix any age for marriage, adding that a married girl does not mean that the husband would be having sexual intercourse with the bride, until she reaches puberty, as witnessed with the marriage of Prophet Muhammad to Nana Aisha.



That's actually incorrect, the Arabic terms used within the Qur'an are not those that refer to prepubescent women. There is also a clear distinction within the Quran between childhood and young adulthood (ashuddah).


----------



## Osomir

Roudy said:


> Osomir said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Uncensored2008 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, Muhammad waited until Aisha turned 9.....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Only if you hold the Sahih Muslim and Sahih Bukhari to be cannon. Are you secretly a Sunni Muslim?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Apparently that's what Muslims believe.  And use it as their justification and model for marrying 8 or 9 years olds.
> 
> For some reason Omir has a hard time admitting anything negative abut Muslims or Islam.  I wonder why.
Click to expand...


While the Sahih Muslim and Sahih Bukhari are very popular, not all Muslims follow them. You especially should know that having such excellent religious understandings from your time in Iran no? They aren't Shia collections. But you knew that right?

There is also no law that mandates the practice of child marriage within overarching Islamic law sets. there is nothing un-Islamic about waiting until a girl is 18 to have them marry, and suggesting anything contrary does immense damage in the fight against child marriage.


----------



## Roudy

Osomir said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Idiot it is not up to me and you, it is what Muslims believe, and they believe its acceptable because their prophet did so.  These are all false comparisons and unrelated statistics in a futile attempt to whitewash obvious problems with Muslim culture, which has absolutely NOTHING to do with economics. It's just plain old pigheaded religious based chauvinism promoted by Islam since the 7th century.
> 
> I would use that "thesis" on the plight of women as toilet paper.  Phony baloney.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If Islam is the main factor for child marriage then how do you explain the asymmetries in prevalence rates across Islamic populations?
> 
> And how do you explain the widespread practice of child marriage within non-Islamic populations?
> 
> As a side note, child marriage predates Islam.
Click to expand...

The more secular a society, the less instance of child marriage. For example in Iran, during the Shah's reign, child marriage and wearing veils in public was outlawed.  Shortly after the Islamists took over, not only did it become legal to marry 9 year olds, but having 4 wives was also legalized, and women HAD to wear veils.  And all the women's rights were flushed down the toilet back to the medieval ages. DOH! Not very bright are we?  

Omir: "no, this nothing to do Islam or Mohammad, nothing to see here, move along folks, its happening all over the world... Why focus in those poor Muslims?" 

"Women's plight" thesis, my arse!


----------



## Osomir

Roudy said:


> The more secular a society, the less instance of child marriage.



You have to be careful with correlation causation fallacies. States can easily be religious and not have large incidents of child marriage.


----------



## Roudy

Osomir said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Osomir said:
> 
> 
> 
> Only if you hold the Sahih Muslim and Sahih Bukhari to be cannon. Are you secretly a Sunni Muslim?
> 
> 
> 
> Apparently that's what Muslims believe.  And use it as their justification and model for marrying 8 or 9 years olds.
> 
> For some reason Omir has a hard time admitting anything negative abut Muslims or Islam.  I wonder why.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> While the Sahih Muslim and Sahih Bukhari are very popular, not all Muslims follow them. You especially should know that having such excellent religious understandings from your time in Iran no? They aren't Shia collections. But you knew that right?
> 
> There is also no law that mandates the practice of child marriage within overarching Islamic law sets. there is nothing un-Islamic about waiting until a girl is 18 to have them marry, and suggesting anything contrary does immense damage in the fight against child marriage.
Click to expand...

Dude, do you live your own alternate reality?  Muslims are taught to emulate Mohammad's life as an example of a "perfect human being" in every aspect. One of them was that he married an 8 year old, and that he had four wives (well actually 8 but he limited his followers to 4 since he created an exception for himself, he was good at that). And that's why this tradition exists and is legal in many Muslim societies. 

Thick as a brick.


----------



## Roudy

Osomir said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> 
> The more secular a society, the less instance of child marriage.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You have to be careful with correlation causation fallacies. States can easily be religious and not have large incidents of child marriage.
Click to expand...

Which religious Muslim societies have less child brides and more women's rights? Pakistan? Afghanistan? Saudi Arabia? Iran? Yemen?  Or do you just throw theories at the wall and see which one sticks?  Is this how you did research on your thesis?  Ha ha ha.


----------



## Osomir

Roudy said:


> Dude, do you lived your own alternate reality?  Muslims are taught to emulate Mohammad's life as an example of a "perfect human being" in every aspect. One of them was that he married an 8 year old



The Sahih Muslim and Sahih Bukhari list the age as 9, changing it to 8 just because that's the age of the girl in the OP is terribly dishonest.


----------



## Roudy

Osomir said:


> Hossfly said:
> 
> 
> 
> Why, Miss Osimir, you first wanted us to believe that the marrying of young girls was because of poverty
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 1.) culture and social practices are often shaped by socio-economic status and thus poverty in the first place.
> 
> 2.) I listed several reasons including poverty, weak governmental institutions, and women's rights issues.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It is very nice that you are an educated young Muslim woman and had the opportunity to get ahead in your studies (although we don't know if you are allowed to work)
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I'm neither a woman, or a Muslim there champ. Once again your assumptions don't serve you very well.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> as Islam did not fix any age for marriage, adding that a married girl does not mean that the husband would be having sexual intercourse with the bride, until she reaches puberty, as witnessed with the marriage of Prophet Muhammad to Nana Aisha.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> That's actually incorrect, the Arabic terms used within the Qur'an are not those that refer to prepubescent women. There is also a clear distinction within the Quran between childhood and young adulthood (ashuddah).
Click to expand...

I gots to tell ya, dis mr. Omir is one expert in ze Koran. Jo know vat I means?  Ha ha ha.


----------



## Osomir

Roudy said:


> Which religious Muslim societies have less child brides? Pakistan? Afghanistan? Saudi Arabia? Iran? Yemen?  Or do you just throw theories at the wall and see which one sticks?  Is this how you did research on your thesis?  Ha ha ha.



Algeria, Libya and Morocco all spring to mind as Muslim majority countries where the legal age of marriage is 18. Tunisia, Senegal, Eritrea also come to mind (I work in Africa so I know African states the best). Now that's not to say that informal arrangements might not occur, but the formal laws there have age restrictions that are far from nine years old. In fact in terms of formal legal practices, Yemen is the lowest in the world, hardly the standard.


----------



## Osomir

Roudy said:


> I gots to tell ya, dis mr. Omir is one expert in ze Koran. Jo know vat I means?  Ha ha ha.



I work with a lot of Islamic majority countries and populations so it is important for me to have a general understanding of Islamic religious concepts and texts.


----------



## Roudy

Osomir said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Dude, do you lived your own alternate reality?  Muslims are taught to emulate Mohammad's life as an example of a "perfect human being" in every aspect. One of them was that he married an 8 year old
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Sahih Muslim and Sahih Bukhari list the age as 9, changing it to 8 just because that's the age of the girl in the OP is terribly dishonest.
Click to expand...

It's all over the place, depending. Some say 6 and then he consummated at 8, others say it was 9. Big deal.  It even says the poor kid was playing with her dolls when the 54 year old thug prophet showed up to threaten her father into letting him marry her. 

By the way an "engagement" in Muslim culture is equivalent to a marriage, almost, minus the copulation.  So imagine a 54 year old prophet "proposing" to a clueless 6 year old's father for her hand in marriage. Yuk!


----------



## Roudy

Osomir said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Which religious Muslim societies have less child brides? Pakistan? Afghanistan? Saudi Arabia? Iran? Yemen?  Or do you just throw theories at the wall and see which one sticks?  Is this how you did research on your thesis?  Ha ha ha.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Algeria, Libya and Morocco all spring to mind as Muslim majority countries where the legal age of marriage is 18. Tunisia, Senegal, Eritrea also come to mind (I work in Africa so I know African states the best). Now that's not to say that informal arrangements might not occur, but the formal laws there have age restrictions that are far from nine years old. In fact in terms of formal legal practices, Yemen is the lowest in the world, hardly the standard.
Click to expand...

Algeria, morocco, Tunisia and Libya aren't (or should, I say weren't) as religious as the ones I mentioned. In fact up to a few decades ago, they were all popular destinations for western tourists.  Morocco still is.


----------



## Roudy

Osomir said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> 
> I gots to tell ya, dis mr. Omir is one expert in ze Koran. Jo know vat I means?  Ha ha ha.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I work with a lot of Islamic majority countries and populations so it is important for me to have a general understanding of Islamic religious concepts and texts.
Click to expand...

I bet you do <wink>

What else do you send them?  Secret shipments I bet.  Or are you know in the "laundry" business, if you get my drift?  LOL


----------



## Osomir

Roudy said:


> It's all over the place, depending. Some he 6 and then he consummated at 8, others say it was 9. Big deal.



The Sahih Muslim and Sahih Bukhari state that they were married at 6 (Aisha was in Ethiopia at the time so they were married apart from each other) and then it was consummated at 9. the "big deal" is that you are intentionally being dishonest so that you can attempt to better link it to the story in the OP.

it's pretty disgusting that you would try to politicize this girl's plight for the sake of promoting your bigotry. 



> It even says the poor kid was playing with her dolls when the 54 year old thug prophet showed up to threaten her father into letting him marry her.



Bukhari Volume 6, Book 60, Number 399 states that during the revelation of the 54th Quranic verse Aisha makes the statement that the revelation came when she was a playful little girl. The 54th Quranic sura occurred no less than 9 years before 622. Which would have made her older than 9 upon marriage and even older upon consummation.

If anything the Sahih Muslim and Bukhari contradict themselves when it comes to Aisha's age, which is pretty normal as the early biographies do the same thing.


----------



## Osomir

Roudy said:


> Osomir said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Which religious Muslim societies have less child brides? Pakistan? Afghanistan? Saudi Arabia? Iran? Yemen?  Or do you just throw theories at the wall and see which one sticks?  Is this how you did research on your thesis?  Ha ha ha.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Algeria, Libya and Morocco all spring to mind as Muslim majority countries where the legal age of marriage is 18. Tunisia, Senegal, Eritrea also come to mind (I work in Africa so I know African states the best). Now that's not to say that informal arrangements might not occur, but the formal laws there have age restrictions that are far from nine years old. In fact in terms of formal legal practices, Yemen is the lowest in the world, hardly the standard.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Algeria, morocco, Tunisia and Libya aren't (or should, I say weren't) as religious as the ones I mentioned. In fact up to a few decades ago, they were all popular destinations for western tourists.  Morocco still is.
Click to expand...


lol, so they don't count because they're not "Muslim enough" come on, now it's just sad.


----------



## Roudy

Osomir said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> 
> It's all over the place, depending. Some he 6 and then he consummated at 8, others say it was 9. Big deal.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Sahih Muslim and Sahih Bukhari state that they were married at 6 (Aisha was in Ethiopia at the time so they were married apart from each other) and then it was consummated at 9. the "big deal" is that you are intentionally being dishonest so that you can attempt to better link it to the story in the OP.
> 
> it's pretty disgusting that you would try to politicize this girl's plight for the sake of promoting your bigotry.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It even says the poor kid was playing with her dolls when the 54 year old thug prophet showed up to threaten her father into letting him marry her.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Bukhari Volume 6, Book 60, Number 399 states that during the revelation of the 54th Quranic verse Aisha makes the statement that the revelation came when she was a playful little girl. The 54th Quranic sura occurred no less than 9 years before 622. Which would have made her older than 9 upon marriage and even older upon consummation.
> 
> If anything the Sahih Muslim and Bukhari contradict themselves when it comes to Aisha's age, which is pretty normal as the early biographies do the same thing.
Click to expand...

The entire Koran contradicts itself. What can we expect from an illiterate thug who hijacked Judaism and Christianity without being able to read a single word of their hoy books, and then comment and criticize it?   Back then it was the meanest most brutal dog on the block with the right street smarts that ruled and was feared and respected by the rest of the desert savages, and that's exactly what Moe was.


----------



## Coyote

Indofred said:


> Osomir said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> S.J. said:
> 
> 
> 
> Gotta be a muslim.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In Yemen? Most likely. Child marriage happens in many non-Islamic majority countries as well though (it is a big problem in parts of Southern Africa, and the rest of Sub-Saharan Africa for that matter). It is also a large problem in India.
> 
> Child marriage is one of those nasty side effects of weak governmental institutions coupled with extreme poverty. It's horrible stuff.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> An intelligent poster.
> 
> Whilst child marriage is clearly a problem as big as it is nasty in some Muslim countries, it also happens far too often in other cultures.
> Sometimes it's poverty whist others do it for cultural reasons.
> Many such cultures, perhaps the Mosuo being the strangest, are totally alien to western norms and many would consider their ideal of 'walking marriage' very strange indeed.
> 
> Basically, for the less than well educated, a girl becomes a potential sexual partner after her first period, will take as many lovers as she wishes during her life but never marry.
> Kids are brought up by the women and men have absolutely no say in anything outside farming.
> 
> To actual child marriage.
> As we'll see from the map, the spread is far greater in poorer countries than in richer ones.
> Unlike the dafter poster (Sub quoted), if we use our brains, we see the problem isn't a Muslim one but one of social group and lack of cash.
Click to expand...


I am guessing that the Muslim-haters and their groupies did not bother to look at that map you posted.  A number of the countries are not Muslim.

That won't make any difference in the anti-Muslim hatefest, but that is a good post


----------



## Roudy

Osomir said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Osomir said:
> 
> 
> 
> Algeria, Libya and Morocco all spring to mind as Muslim majority countries where the legal age of marriage is 18. Tunisia, Senegal, Eritrea also come to mind (I work in Africa so I know African states the best). Now that's not to say that informal arrangements might not occur, but the formal laws there have age restrictions that are far from nine years old. In fact in terms of formal legal practices, Yemen is the lowest in the world, hardly the standard.
> 
> 
> 
> Algeria, morocco, Tunisia and Libya aren't (or should, I say weren't) as religious as the ones I mentioned. In fact up to a few decades ago, they were all popular destinations for western tourists.  Morocco still is.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> lol, so they don't count because they're not "Muslim enough" come on, now it's just sad.
Click to expand...

It isn't, you are trying to prove to me that "some of the more religious Muslim societies offer better rights to women and have less instances of child brides", remember?  
So where is it? 

Epic fail.


----------



## Osomir

Roudy said:


> The entire Koran contradicts itself. What can we expect from an illiterate thug who hijacked Judaism and Christianity without being able to read a single word of their hoy books, and then comment and criticize it?



The Sahih Bukhari and Sahih Muslim aren't part of the Quran, nor was anything that I posted. Nor did Muhammad write them, in fact they weren't compiled until almost 200 years after his death. How can you pretend to be well versed in this stuff and not know that? 

That's really basic stuff.


----------



## Roudy

Coyote said:


> Indofred said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Osomir said:
> 
> 
> 
> In Yemen? Most likely. Child marriage happens in many non-Islamic majority countries as well though (it is a big problem in parts of Southern Africa, and the rest of Sub-Saharan Africa for that matter). It is also a large problem in India.
> 
> Child marriage is one of those nasty side effects of weak governmental institutions coupled with extreme poverty. It's horrible stuff.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> An intelligent poster.
> 
> Whilst child marriage is clearly a problem as big as it is nasty in some Muslim countries, it also happens far too often in other cultures.
> Sometimes it's poverty whist others do it for cultural reasons.
> Many such cultures, perhaps the Mosuo being the strangest, are totally alien to western norms and many would consider their ideal of 'walking marriage' very strange indeed.
> 
> Basically, for the less than well educated, a girl becomes a potential sexual partner after her first period, will take as many lovers as she wishes during her life but never marry.
> Kids are brought up by the women and men have absolutely no say in anything outside farming.
> 
> To actual child marriage.
> As we'll see from the map, the spread is far greater in poorer countries than in richer ones.
> Unlike the dafter poster (Sub quoted), if we use our brains, we see the problem isn't a Muslim one but one of social group and lack of cash.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I am guessing that the Muslim-haters and their groupies did not bother to look at that map you posted.  A number of the countries are not Muslim.
> 
> That won't make any difference in the anti-Muslim hatefest, but that is a good post
Click to expand...

It's not a hate fest, it is a fact of life.  Child brides and lack of women's rights are not exclusive but prevalent in Muslim societies, and that is mainly due to religious influences which have become part of the culture. The more religious and Islamic, the more child abuse and less women's rights.  Another fact. We can run but we can't hide.  It is what it is.  Making up excuses or false comparisons just won't do. It is simply because They are emulating Mohammad, who married a 9 year old.


----------



## Roudy

Osomir said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> 
> The entire Koran contradicts itself. What can we expect from an illiterate thug who hijacked Judaism and Christianity without being able to read a single word of their hoy books, and then comment and criticize it?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Sahih Bukhari and Sahih Muslim aren't part of the Quran, nor was anything that I posted. Nor did Muhammad write them, in fact they weren't compiled until almost 200 years after his death. How can you pretend to be well versed in this stuff and not know that?
> 
> That's really basic stuff.
Click to expand...

Did I say I am "well versed"?  Does one need to know the New Testament by heart or be "well versed" to know enough about Christianity or Jesus?  I know enough about Islam and how it applies and affects Muslim life. The effects of which we are seeing on a global basis, including, but not limited to, having to take off shoes at airports, and surrender large liquid containers, being exposed to all kinds of damaging rays and long lines. And that's the tip of the iceberg.


----------



## Coyote

Roudy said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Indofred said:
> 
> 
> 
> An intelligent poster.
> 
> Whilst child marriage is clearly a problem as big as it is nasty in some Muslim countries, it also happens far too often in other cultures.
> Sometimes it's poverty whist others do it for cultural reasons.
> Many such cultures, perhaps the Mosuo being the strangest, are totally alien to western norms and many would consider their ideal of 'walking marriage' very strange indeed.
> 
> Basically, for the less than well educated, a girl becomes a potential sexual partner after her first period, will take as many lovers as she wishes during her life but never marry.
> Kids are brought up by the women and men have absolutely no say in anything outside farming.
> 
> To actual child marriage.
> As we'll see from the map, the spread is far greater in poorer countries than in richer ones.
> Unlike the dafter poster (Sub quoted), if we use our brains, we see the problem isn't a Muslim one but one of social group and lack of cash.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I am guessing that the Muslim-haters and their groupies did not bother to look at that map you posted.  A number of the countries are not Muslim.
> 
> That won't make any difference in the anti-Muslim hatefest, but that is a good post
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> It's not a hate fest, it is a fact of life.  Child brides and lack of women's rights are not exclusive but prevalent in Muslim societies, and that is mainly due to religious influences which have become part of the culture. The more religious and Islamic, the more child abuse and less women's rights.  Another fact. We can run but we can't hide.  It is what it is.
Click to expand...


It is what it is indeed - and what it is is not as simple as you make it out to be.  It's not simply a matter of religion because in those regions, child brides are occur amongst all religions (for example the number is high in Mexico - hardly a Muslim country).  There are many countries - for example Hindu dominated India, that have atrocious records of women's rights.  Many African countries (both dominant Muslim and Christian) are similar in that respect.  If you are going to tack some sort of sanctioned religious pedophilia to it - then you overlook both your own religion and Christianity in which child marriages and bigamy were the norm of their ancient worlds.




> Making up excuses or false comparisons just won't do. It is simply because They are emulating Mohammad, who married a 9 year old.



It's not making up excuses Roudy - it's confronting bigotry head on.  You are taking a real and tragic problem in many areas of the world and using it as a vehicle to promote your own anti-Muslim rhetoric and that is just plain sad.


----------



## Roudy

Coyote said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> I am guessing that the Muslim-haters and their groupies did not bother to look at that map you posted.  A number of the countries are not Muslim.
> 
> That won't make any difference in the anti-Muslim hatefest, but that is a good post
> 
> 
> 
> It's not a hate fest, it is a fact of life.  Child brides and lack of women's rights are not exclusive but prevalent in Muslim societies, and that is mainly due to religious influences which have become part of the culture. The more religious and Islamic, the more child abuse and less women's rights.  Another fact. We can run but we can't hide.  It is what it is.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> It is what it is indeed - and what it is is not as simple as you make it out to be.  It's not simply a matter of religion because in those regions, child brides are occur amongst all religions (for example the number is high in Mexico - hardly a Muslim country).  There are many countries - for example Hindu dominated India, that have atrocious records of women's rights.  Many African countries (both dominant Muslim and Christian) are similar in that respect.  If you are going to tack some sort of sanctioned religious pedophilia to it - then you overlook both your own religion and Christianity in which child marriages and bigamy were the norm of their ancient worlds.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Making up excuses or false comparisons just won't do. It is simply because They are emulating Mohammad, who married a 9 year old.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> It's not making up excuses Roudy - it's confronting bigotry head on.  You are taking a real and tragic problem in many areas of the world and using it as a vehicle to promote your own anti-Muslim rhetoric and that is just plain sad.
Click to expand...

Saying that the reason Muslim men marry 9 year olds is because of their religion and Shariah law, is not bigotry ,it is the truth. The reasons could be different in non muslim societies. Saudi Arabia and Iran are not "impoverished" countries, yet it is indisputable fact that child marriages occur due to Islamic teachings.


----------



## Coyote

Roudy said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> 
> It's not a hate fest, it is a fact of life.  Child brides and lack of women's rights are not exclusive but prevalent in Muslim societies, and that is mainly due to religious influences which have become part of the culture. The more religious and Islamic, the more child abuse and less women's rights.  Another fact. We can run but we can't hide.  It is what it is.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It is what it is indeed - and what it is is not as simple as you make it out to be.  It's not simply a matter of religion because in those regions, child brides are occur amongst all religions (for example the number is high in Mexico - hardly a Muslim country).  There are many countries - for example Hindu dominated India, that have atrocious records of women's rights.  Many African countries (both dominant Muslim and Christian) are similar in that respect.  If you are going to tack some sort of sanctioned religious pedophilia to it - then you overlook both your own religion and Christianity in which child marriages and bigamy were the norm of their ancient worlds.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Making up excuses or false comparisons just won't do. It is simply because They are emulating Mohammad, who married a 9 year old.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> It's not making up excuses Roudy - it's confronting bigotry head on.  You are taking a real and tragic problem in many areas of the world and using it as a vehicle to promote your own anti-Muslim rhetoric and that is just plain sad.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Saying that the reason Muslim marry 9 years is because of their religion and Shariah law, is not bigotry.  The reasons could be different in non muslim societies. Saudi Arabia and Iran are not "impoverished" countries yet it is indisputable fact that child marriages occur due to Islamic teachings.
Click to expand...


Saying it's "because" of their religion is not proof that it's "becuase" of their religion.  You completely overlook facts presented over and over.  It's a widespread problem that occurs in non-Islamic countries, it doesn't occur in all Islamic countries, and it PRE-DATES Islam.  You completely overlook the fact that child marriages were largely the norm in the ancient world and that birthdates and ages were not well recorded.  You claim it's due to "Islamic Teachings" but have yet to provide any of those teachings except your claim that they seek to emulate Mohammed who, oddly, preferred adult women since all his other wives were adults at marriage.

In other words you select your "facts" to fit your bias


----------



## Osomir

Roudy said:


> Did I say I am "well versed"?



Yes actually. Here: http://www.usmessageboard.com/middle-east-general/312066-the-stolen-land-of-iran-10.html#post7820737 you went on about how you've lived with Muslims your entire life and how your father knew most of the Quran by heart and how you knew more about Iranian culture (which one would assume would include theological or even basic knowledge of Islam) than i ever could.

And yet you not only didn't know that the Bukhari and Muslim collections (the most well known Hadith collections in the world) aren't shia (something anyone who has grown up with Muslims their entire life should know) but that they weren't written by Muhammad and aren't in the Quran (something anyone who has ever looked at Islamic theology even in passing should know). 

You don't need to be well versed in Islam to know this stuff, these are the very basics, about as basic as you can get.

It would be like Christians confusing a priest's sermon or the apocrypha as a book of the Bible, or thinking that Jesus was the writer of the Bible, or that the 12 apostles hung out with Adam and Eve in the Book of Genesis. 



> I know enough about Islam and how it applies and affects Muslim life.



You obviously know very little if you don't even know the difference between hadith collections and the Quran.

How can you pretend to have any understanding of Shariah law sets and how they are derived when you don't even know what hadiths are?


----------



## Coyote

Interestingly, Saudi Arabia and Iran, which you single out for religiousity and child marriage are not amongst the top contenders for child brides.

Early and forced marriage - facts and figures - Plan UK



> One in every five girls in the developing world is married by the age of 18. One in nine marries before they reach the age of 15. In countries like Niger, Chad, Mali, Bangladesh, Guinea and the Central African Republic (CAR), the rate of early and forced marriage is 60 per cent and over. Child brides are particularly prevalent in South Asia (46 per cent) and in sub-Saharan Africa (38 per cent).


----------



## Osomir

Coyote said:


> Interestingly, Saudi Arabia and Iran, which you single out for religiousity and child marriage are not amongst the top contenders for child brides.
> 
> Early and forced marriage - facts and figures - Plan UK
> 
> 
> 
> 
> One in every five girls in the developing world is married by the age of 18. One in nine marries before they reach the age of 15. In countries like Niger, Chad, Mali, Bangladesh, Guinea and the Central African Republic (CAR), the rate of early and forced marriage is 60 per cent and over. Child brides are particularly prevalent in South Asia (46 per cent) and in sub-Saharan Africa (38 per cent).
Click to expand...


And as far as total numbers go, India alone accounts for about 1/3rd of the world's total.


----------



## Roudy

Coyote said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> It is what it is indeed - and what it is is not as simple as you make it out to be.  It's not simply a matter of religion because in those regions, child brides are occur amongst all religions (for example the number is high in Mexico - hardly a Muslim country).  There are many countries - for example Hindu dominated India, that have atrocious records of women's rights.  Many African countries (both dominant Muslim and Christian) are similar in that respect.  If you are going to tack some sort of sanctioned religious pedophilia to it - then you overlook both your own religion and Christianity in which child marriages and bigamy were the norm of their ancient worlds.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's not making up excuses Roudy - it's confronting bigotry head on.  You are taking a real and tragic problem in many areas of the world and using it as a vehicle to promote your own anti-Muslim rhetoric and that is just plain sad.
> 
> 
> 
> Saying that the reason Muslim marry 9 years is because of their religion and Shariah law, is not bigotry.  The reasons could be different in non muslim societies. Saudi Arabia and Iran are not "impoverished" countries yet it is indisputable fact that child marriages occur due to Islamic teachings.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Saying it's "because" of their religion is not proof that it's "becuase" of their religion.  You completely overlook facts presented over and over.  It's a widespread problem that occurs in non-Islamic countries, it doesn't occur in all Islamic countries, and it PRE-DATES Islam.  You completely overlook the fact that child marriages were largely the norm in the ancient world and that birthdates and ages were not well recorded.  You claim it's due to "Islamic Teachings" but have yet to provide any of those teachings except your claim that they seek to emulate Mohammed who, oddly, preferred adult women since all his other wives were adults at marriage.
> 
> In other words you select your "facts" to fit your bias
Click to expand...

He married the older ones for money, to help finance his conquests, the way Kings used to in medieval Europe. 

If you want verses they are easily available but I can provide them. And yes, it is because they are emulating Mohammad in every way, including his marriage to Aisha. These are all very religious societies, almost everything they do has to do with their religion in one shape or another.


----------



## Osomir

Roudy said:


> He married the older ones for money, to help finance his conquests, the way Kings used to in medieval Europe.



Now you're just showing a poor understanding of basic Islamic history. This is when actually having read a book on Islamic history might have come in handy 



> If you want verses they are easily available but I can provide them. And yes, it is because they are emulating Mohammad in every way, including his marriage to Aisha. These are all very religious societies, almost everything they do has to do with their religion in one shape or another.



Except any Islamic country that doesn't fit into your generalization though right?


----------



## Roudy

Osomir said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> Interestingly, Saudi Arabia and Iran, which you single out for religiousity and child marriage are not amongst the top contenders for child brides.
> 
> Early and forced marriage - facts and figures - Plan UK
> 
> 
> 
> 
> One in every five girls in the developing world is married by the age of 18. One in nine marries before they reach the age of 15. In countries like Niger, Chad, Mali, Bangladesh, Guinea and the Central African Republic (CAR), the rate of early and forced marriage is 60 per cent and over. Child brides are particularly prevalent in South Asia (46 per cent) and in sub-Saharan Africa (38 per cent).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> And as far as total numbers go, India alone accounts for about 1/3rd of the world's total.
Click to expand...

Jaysus, ya think it has anything to do with India being one of the populous countries in the world?  There are just 300 million Muslims in India alone.


----------



## Roudy

Osomir said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> 
> He married the older ones for money, to help finance his conquests, the way Kings used to in medieval Europe.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Now you're just showing a poor understanding of basic Islamic history. This is when actually having read a book on Islamic history might have come in handy
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If you want verses they are easily available but I can provide them. And yes, it is because they are emulating Mohammad in every way, including his marriage to Aisha. These are all very religious societies, almost everything they do has to do with their religion in one shape or another.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Except any Islamic country that doesn't fit into your generalization though right?
Click to expand...

Fair enough.  Show me ONE Muslim country that practices child marriage not because of Islam or Shariah law.  

You're running on empty buddy.


----------



## Roudy

Osomir said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> 
> He married the older ones for money, to help finance his conquests, the way Kings used to in medieval Europe.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Now you're just showing a poor understanding of basic Islamic history. This is when actually having read a book on Islamic history might have come in handy
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If you want verses they are easily available but I can provide them. And yes, it is because they are emulating Mohammad in every way, including his marriage to Aisha. These are all very religious societies, almost everything they do has to do with their religion in one shape or another.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Except any Islamic country that doesn't fit into your generalization though right?
Click to expand...

The fact that Mohammad married a 9 year old is almost universally accepted by the Muslim world. Hence the prevalence of child marriages in Muslim countries. In fact, it is the Muslims themselves that tell you this. 

I don't understand why this is so hard for some to understand. Mohammad married a child and therefore that's why his followers do.


----------



## Osomir

Roudy said:


> Fair enough.  Show me ONE Muslim country that practices child marriage not because of Islam or Shariah law.



Child marriage pre-dates Islam in a lot of countries. 



> You're running on empty buddy.



Says the guy who doesn't even know the difference between the Quran and Hadith collections.

Seriously, how can you pretend to know anything about Islamic theology or legal sets when you have absolutely no previous understanding of the differences between the Quran and Hadiths?


----------



## Roudy

Osomir said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> 
> He married the older ones for money, to help finance his conquests, the way Kings used to in medieval Europe.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Now you're just showing a poor understanding of basic Islamic history. This is when actually having read a book on Islamic history might have come in handy
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If you want verses they are easily available but I can provide them. And yes, it is because they are emulating Mohammad in every way, including his marriage to Aisha. These are all very religious societies, almost everything they do has to do with their religion in one shape or another.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Except any Islamic country that doesn't fit into your generalization though right?
Click to expand...

Untitled

"Islam did not rise except through Ali's sword and Khadija's wealth," a saying goes. Khadija al-Kubra daughter of Khuwaylid ibn (son of) Asad ibn Abdul-`Uzza ibn Qusayy belonged to the clan of Banu Hashim of the tribe of Banu Asad. She was a distant cousin of her husband the Messenger of Allah Muhammad ibn Abdullah ibn Abdul-Muttalib ibn Hashim ibn Abd Manaf ibn Qusayy, Allah's peace and blessings be upon him and his progeny.


----------



## Roudy

Osomir said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Fair enough.  Show me ONE Muslim country that practices child marriage not because of Islam or Shariah law.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Child marriage pre-dates Islam in a lot of countries.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You're running on empty buddy.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Says the guy who doesn't even know the difference between the Quran and Hadith collections.
> 
> Seriously, how can you pretend to know anything about Islamic theology or legal sets when you have absolutely no previous understanding of the differences between the Quran and Hadiths?
Click to expand...

One more time, show me a Muslim country where the reason for child marriages can be attributed to reasons other than Islam and Shariah law.


----------



## Coyote

Roudy said:


> Osomir said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Fair enough.  Show me ONE Muslim country that practices child marriage not because of Islam or Shariah law.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Child marriage pre-dates Islam in a lot of countries.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You're running on empty buddy.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Says the guy who doesn't even know the difference between the Quran and Hadith collections.
> 
> Seriously, how can you pretend to know anything about Islamic theology or legal sets when you have absolutely no previous understanding of the differences between the Quran and Hadiths?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> One more time, show me a Muslim country where the reason for child marriages can be attributed to reasons other than Islam and Shariah law.
Click to expand...


Child marriages pre-date Islam.

Can you find me anything in Shariah law that mandates child marriages?

Your logic isn't working - you are asking him to prove a negative.


----------



## Roudy

Osomir said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Did I say I am "well versed"?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes actually. Here: http://www.usmessageboard.com/middle-east-general/312066-the-stolen-land-of-iran-10.html#post7820737 you went on about how you've lived with Muslims your entire life and how your father knew most of the Quran by heart and how you knew more about Iranian culture (which one would assume would include theological or even basic knowledge of Islam) than i ever could.
> 
> And yet you not only didn't know that the Bukhari and Muslim collections (the most well known Hadith collections in the world) aren't shia (something anyone who has grown up with Muslims their entire life should know) but that they weren't written by Muhammad and aren't in the Quran (something anyone who has ever looked at Islamic theology even in passing should know).
> 
> You don't need to be well versed in Islam to know this stuff, these are the very basics, about as basic as you can get.
> 
> It would be like Christians confusing a priest's sermon or the apocrypha as a book of the Bible, or thinking that Jesus was the writer of the Bible, or that the 12 apostles hung out with Adam and Eve in the Book of Genesis.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I know enough about Islam and how it applies and affects Muslim life.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You obviously know very little if you don't even know the difference between hadith collections and the Quran.
> 
> How can you pretend to have any understanding of Shariah law sets and how they are derived when you don't even know what hadiths are?
Click to expand...

Yes, so where did I say I am "well versed"?  My father did know the Koran by heart because he was forced to as part of his education, even if he was not a Muslim.  And I am familiar with the Koran and Muslims as I grew up with them. In fact I have Muslim friends. Did I study the Koran like a devout Muslim, like you would?  No why do I need to do that. However that doesn't negate my knowledge or my claims.  Do I need to be a rabbi or priest to know about Judaism or Christianity?  Get a grip on yourself.  LOL.


----------



## Osomir

Roudy said:


> "Islam did not rise except through Ali's sword and Khadija's wealth," a saying goes. Khadija al-Kubra daughter of Khuwaylid ibn (son of) Asad ibn Abdul-`Uzza ibn Qusayy belonged to the clan of Banu Hashim of the tribe of Banu Asad. She was a distant cousin of her husband the Messenger of Allah Muhammad ibn Abdullah ibn Abdul-Muttalib ibn Hashim ibn Abd Manaf ibn Qusayy, Allah's peace and blessings be upon him and his progeny.



1.) He married Khadija (who was older than he and with whom he remained monogamous with until her death) long before any sort of military conquest and even before his break with Mecca.

2.) Khadija was the one who approached him for marriage, not the other way around.

3.) Khadija even died before any military action or war was declared or engaged in and before Muhammad's break with Mecca (when his uncle died and he lost his social protection from assassination). 

4.) Seriously, try actually reading a book. Karen Armstrong's biography on Muhammad is pretty good and she isn't even a Muslim so you don't have to hate her (she was a former Catholic nun).


----------



## Roudy

Coyote said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Osomir said:
> 
> 
> 
> Child marriage pre-dates Islam in a lot of countries.
> 
> 
> 
> Says the guy who doesn't even know the difference between the Quran and Hadith collections.
> 
> Seriously, how can you pretend to know anything about Islamic theology or legal sets when you have absolutely no previous understanding of the differences between the Quran and Hadiths?
> 
> 
> 
> One more time, show me a Muslim country where the reason for child marriages can be attributed to reasons other than Islam and Shariah law.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Child marriages pre-date Islam.
> 
> Can you find me anything in Shariah law that mandates child marriages?
> 
> Your logic isn't working - you are asking him to prove a negative.
Click to expand...

And now a dose of reality:
Child marriage - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Lower legally allowed marriage age does not necessarily cause high rates of child marriages. However, there is a causative correlation between restrictions placed by laws and the average age of first marriage. In the United States, per 1960 Census data, 3.5% of girls married before the age of 16, while an additional 11.9% married between 16 and 18. States with lower marriage age limits saw higher percentages of child marriages.[7] This correlation between higher age of marriage in civil law and observed frequency of child marriages breaks down in countries with Islam as the state religion. In Islamic nations, many countries do not allow child marriage of girls under their civil code of laws. But, the state recognized Sharia religious laws and courts in all these nations have the power to override the civil code, and often do. UNICEF reports that the top five nations in the world - Niger (75%), Chad (72%), Mali (71%), Bangladesh (64%), Guinea (63%) - with highest observed child marriage rates are all Islamic majority countries.[2]


----------



## Osomir

Roudy said:


> And I am familiar with the Koran and Muslims as I grew up with them.



Once again how can you claim to be familiar with the Quran when you got it confused with the Sahih Muslim and Sahih Bukhari? Children know the difference between the two.



> Did I study the Koran like a devout Muslim, like you would?



I don't think that you are quite grasping here that it in no way takes any sort of devout study to be able to distinguish between the Quran and hadith collections. Those things are about as basic as you can get. It would be like Christians not knowing who the apostles were, but claiming to have a decent understanding of the Bible. 

It's ridiculous. 



> No why do I need to do that. However that doesn't negate my knowledge or my claims.  Do I need to be a rabbi or priest to know about Judaism or Christianity?  Get a grip on yourself.  LOL.



And what's worse, you're apparently proud of your lack of education on the subject. Seriously, get some self respect.


----------



## Roudy

Osomir said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> 
> "Islam did not rise except through Ali's sword and Khadija's wealth," a saying goes. Khadija al-Kubra daughter of Khuwaylid ibn (son of) Asad ibn Abdul-`Uzza ibn Qusayy belonged to the clan of Banu Hashim of the tribe of Banu Asad. She was a distant cousin of her husband the Messenger of Allah Muhammad ibn Abdullah ibn Abdul-Muttalib ibn Hashim ibn Abd Manaf ibn Qusayy, Allah's peace and blessings be upon him and his progeny.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 1.) He married Khadija (who was older than he and with whom he remained monogamous with until her death) long before any sort of military conquest and even before his break with Mecca.
> 
> 2.) Khadija was the one who approached him for marriage, not the other way around.
> 
> 3.) Khadija even died before any military action or war was declared or engaged in and before Muhammad's break with Mecca 9when his uncle died and he lost his social protection from assassination).
> 
> 4.) Seriously, try actually reading a book. Karen Armstrong's biography on Muhammad is pretty good and she isn't even a Muslim so you don't have to hate her (she was a former Catholic nun).
Click to expand...

This is an Islamic site I am using. Ha ha ha. Wow.

No thanks,Ill take what they say over you.


----------



## Osomir

Roudy said:


> This is an Islamic site I am using. Ha ha ha. Wow.
> 
> No thanks,Ill take what they say over you.



Those things are basics of Muhammad's life. She died in 620 and the Hijra didn't take place until 622. 

Also:

1.) He married Khadija (who was older than he and with whom he remained monogamous with until her death) long before any sort of military conquest and even before his break with Mecca.

2.) Khadija was the one who approached him for marriage, not the other way around.

3.) Khadija even died before any military action or war was declared or engaged in and before Muhammad's break with Mecca 9when his uncle died and he lost his social protection from assassination). 

4.) Seriously, try actually reading a book. Karen Armstrong's biography on Muhammad is pretty good and she isn't even a Muslim so you don't have to hate her (she was a former Catholic nun).


1, 2, and 3 aren't disputed facts.


----------



## Roudy

Osomir said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> 
> And I am familiar with the Koran and Muslims as I grew up with them.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Once again how can you claim to be familiar with the Quran when you got it confused with the Sahih Muslim and Sahih Bukhari? Children know the difference between the two.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Did I study the Koran like a devout Muslim, like you would?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I don't think that you are quite grasping here that it in no way takes any sort of devout study to be able to distinguish between the Quran and hadith collections. Those things are about as basic as you can get. It would be like Christians not knowing who the apostles were, but claiming to have a decent understanding of the Bible.
> 
> It's ridiculous.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No why do I need to do that. However that doesn't negate my knowledge or my claims.  Do I need to be a rabbi or priest to know about Judaism or Christianity?  Get a grip on yourself.  LOL.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> And what's worse, you're apparently proud of your lack of education on the subject. Seriously, get some self respect.
Click to expand...

What is there to grasp or not grasp?  Muslims marry 9 year olds because their prophet did so. You got proof it ain't so?  Show it.

Islamic studies begins tomorrow at "Sahar" or "Sabah" after morning prayers at the mosque. Be there!!


----------



## Coyote

Roudy said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> 
> One more time, show me a Muslim country where the reason for child marriages can be attributed to reasons other than Islam and Shariah law.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Child marriages pre-date Islam.
> 
> Can you find me anything in Shariah law that mandates child marriages?
> 
> Your logic isn't working - you are asking him to prove a negative.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> And now a dose of reality:
> Child marriage - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> Lower legally allowed marriage age does not necessarily cause high rates of child marriages. However, there is a causative correlation between restrictions placed by laws and the average age of first marriage. In the United States, per 1960 Census data, 3.5% of girls married before the age of 16, while an additional 11.9% married between 16 and 18. States with lower marriage age limits saw higher percentages of child marriages.[7] This correlation between higher age of marriage in civil law and observed frequency of child marriages breaks down in countries with Islam as the state religion. *In Islamic nations, many countries do not allow child marriage of girls under their civil code of laws. But, the state recognized Sharia religious laws and courts in all these nations have the power to override the civil code, and often do.* *UNICEF reports that the top five nations in the world - Niger (75%), Chad (72%), Mali (71%), Bangladesh (64%), Guinea (63%) - with highest observed child marriage rates are all Islamic majority countries*.[2]
Click to expand...



Yes, though I already pointed out that those countries were amongst the highest - not Saudi Arabia or Iran.  Those countries are also extremely poor.  

If you go to the article that is linked to your quote, it shows how poverty is strongly causitive: http://www.unicef.org/sowc09/docs/SOWC09-CountryExample-Mali.pdf

What Sharia law mandates child marriages?

Note - most of these marriages are not young children as you keep going on about, they are teenaged girls.


----------



## Coyote

Roudy said:


> Osomir said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> 
> And I am familiar with the Koran and Muslims as I grew up with them.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Once again how can you claim to be familiar with the Quran when you got it confused with the Sahih Muslim and Sahih Bukhari? Children know the difference between the two.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't think that you are quite grasping here that it in no way takes any sort of devout study to be able to distinguish between the Quran and hadith collections. Those things are about as basic as you can get. It would be like Christians not knowing who the apostles were, but claiming to have a decent understanding of the Bible.
> 
> It's ridiculous.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No why do I need to do that. However that doesn't negate my knowledge or my claims.  Do I need to be a rabbi or priest to know about Judaism or Christianity?  Get a grip on yourself.  LOL.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> And what's worse, you're apparently proud of your lack of education on the subject. Seriously, get some self respect.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> What is there to grasp or not grasp?  *Muslims marry 9 year olds because their prophet did so. You got proof it ain't so? * Show it.
> 
> Islamic studies begins tomorrow at "Sahar" or "Sabah" after morning prayers at the mosque. Be there!!
Click to expand...


Roudy, *you* are the one making the claim here - it's up to you to show the proof


----------



## Coyote

Osomir said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> 
> This is an Islamic site I am using. Ha ha ha. Wow.
> 
> No thanks,Ill take what they say over you.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Those things are basics of Muhammad's life. She died in 620 and the Hijra didn't take place until 622.
> 
> Also:
> 
> 1.) He married Khadija (who was older than he and with whom he remained monogamous with until her death) long before any sort of military conquest and even before his break with Mecca.
> 
> 2.) Khadija was the one who approached him for marriage, not the other way around.
> 
> 3.) Khadija even died before any military action or war was declared or engaged in and before Muhammad's break with Mecca 9when his uncle died and he lost his social protection from assassination).
> 
> 4.) *Seriously, try actually reading a book. Karen Armstrong's biography on Muhammad* is pretty good and she isn't even a Muslim so you don't have to hate her (she was a former Catholic nun).
> 
> 
> 1, 2, and 3 aren't disputed facts.
Click to expand...


ha, that's funny - I have that book on my reading pile to read - I heard her interviewed and was very impressed so I picked up History of God and her biography of Mohammed


----------



## Roudy

Osomir said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> 
> "Islam did not rise except through Ali's sword and Khadija's wealth," a saying goes. Khadija al-Kubra daughter of Khuwaylid ibn (son of) Asad ibn Abdul-`Uzza ibn Qusayy belonged to the clan of Banu Hashim of the tribe of Banu Asad. She was a distant cousin of her husband the Messenger of Allah Muhammad ibn Abdullah ibn Abdul-Muttalib ibn Hashim ibn Abd Manaf ibn Qusayy, Allah's peace and blessings be upon him and his progeny.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 1.) He married Khadija (who was older than he and with whom he remained monogamous with until her death) long before any sort of military conquest and even before his break with Mecca.
> 
> 2.) Khadija was the one who approached him for marriage, not the other way around.
> 
> 3.) Khadija even died before any military action or war was declared or engaged in and before Muhammad's break with Mecca (when his uncle died and he lost his social protection from assassination).
> 
> 4.) Seriously, try actually reading a book. Karen Armstrong's biography on Muhammad is pretty good and she isn't even a Muslim so you don't have to hate her (she was a former Catholic nun).
Click to expand...

"Khadija approached Mohammed for marriage..."

LOL, like, I'm sure that's the way it was back then in 7th century Arabia.  Women were so progressive and got to choose who they wanted to marry, so they just grabbed whoever they felt like.  Or maybe it was Mohammad's GQ type good looks?  Who knows.


----------



## Roudy

Coyote said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Osomir said:
> 
> 
> 
> Once again how can you claim to be familiar with the Quran when you got it confused with the Sahih Muslim and Sahih Bukhari? Children know the difference between the two.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't think that you are quite grasping here that it in no way takes any sort of devout study to be able to distinguish between the Quran and hadith collections. Those things are about as basic as you can get. It would be like Christians not knowing who the apostles were, but claiming to have a decent understanding of the Bible.
> 
> It's ridiculous.
> 
> 
> 
> And what's worse, you're apparently proud of your lack of education on the subject. Seriously, get some self respect.
> 
> 
> 
> What is there to grasp or not grasp?  *Muslims marry 9 year olds because their prophet did so. You got proof it ain't so? * Show it.
> 
> Islamic studies begins tomorrow at "Sahar" or "Sabah" after morning prayers at the mosque. Be there!!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Roudy, *you* are the one making the claim here - it's up to you to show the proof
Click to expand...

Wow, you guys are actually proposing that it ISN'T because of Islam that Muslim men are allowed to marry 9 year olds?  It's pretty much a given, even Muslims realize and admit it.

 Are you actually ready for the barrage of proof about to come down on this thread?


----------



## Hossfly

Coyote said:


> Osomir said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> 
> This is an Islamic site I am using. Ha ha ha. Wow.
> 
> No thanks,Ill take what they say over you.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Those things are basics of Muhammad's life. She died in 620 and the Hijra didn't take place until 622.
> 
> Also:
> 
> 1.) He married Khadija (who was older than he and with whom he remained monogamous with until her death) long before any sort of military conquest and even before his break with Mecca.
> 
> 2.) Khadija was the one who approached him for marriage, not the other way around.
> 
> 3.) Khadija even died before any military action or war was declared or engaged in and before Muhammad's break with Mecca 9when his uncle died and he lost his social protection from assassination).
> 
> 4.) *Seriously, try actually reading a book. Karen Armstrong's biography on Muhammad* is pretty good and she isn't even a Muslim so you don't have to hate her (she was a former Catholic nun).
> 
> 
> 1, 2, and 3 aren't disputed facts.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> ha, that's funny - I have that book on my reading pile to read - I heard her interviewed and was very impressed so I picked up History of God and her biography of Mohammed
Click to expand...

Well, to each his own..........

Karen Armstrong - WikiIslam

Karen Armstrong wants us all to love Islam « Why Evolution Is True


----------



## Osomir

Roudy said:


> "Khadija approached Mohammed for marriage..."
> 
> LOL, like, I'm sure that's the way it was back then in 7th century Arabia.  Women were so progressive and got to choose who they wanted to marry, so they just grabbed whoever they felt like.  Or maybe it was Mohammad's GQ type good looks?  Who knows.



She was his employer.


----------



## Roudy

Coyote said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> Child marriages pre-date Islam.
> 
> Can you find me anything in Shariah law that mandates child marriages?
> 
> Your logic isn't working - you are asking him to prove a negative.
> 
> 
> 
> And now a dose of reality:
> Child marriage - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> Lower legally allowed marriage age does not necessarily cause high rates of child marriages. However, there is a causative correlation between restrictions placed by laws and the average age of first marriage. In the United States, per 1960 Census data, 3.5% of girls married before the age of 16, while an additional 11.9% married between 16 and 18. States with lower marriage age limits saw higher percentages of child marriages.[7] This correlation between higher age of marriage in civil law and observed frequency of child marriages breaks down in countries with Islam as the state religion. *In Islamic nations, many countries do not allow child marriage of girls under their civil code of laws. But, the state recognized Sharia religious laws and courts in all these nations have the power to override the civil code, and often do.* *UNICEF reports that the top five nations in the world - Niger (75%), Chad (72%), Mali (71%), Bangladesh (64%), Guinea (63%) - with highest observed child marriage rates are all Islamic majority countries*.[2]
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, though I already pointed out that those countries were amongst the highest - not Saudi Arabia or Iran.  Those countries are also extremely poor.
> 
> If you go to the article that is linked to your quote, it shows how poverty is strongly causitive: http://www.unicef.org/sowc09/docs/SOWC09-CountryExample-Mali.pdf
> 
> What Sharia law mandates child marriages?
> 
> Note - most of these marriages are not young children as you keep going on about, they are teenaged girls.
Click to expand...

*



			...the state recognized Sharia religious laws and courts in all these nations have the power to override the civil code, and often do. UNICEF reports that the top five nations in the world - Niger (75%), Chad (72%), Mali (71%), Bangladesh (64%), Guinea (63%) - with highest observed child marriage rates are all Islamic majority countries.[2]
		
Click to expand...

*
Coincidence?!

I rest my case, your Honor.


----------



## Roudy

Osomir said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> 
> "Khadija approached Mohammed for marriage..."
> 
> LOL, like, I'm sure that's the way it was back then in 7th century Arabia.  Women were so progressive and got to choose who they wanted to marry, so they just grabbed whoever they felt like.  Or maybe it was Mohammad's GQ type good looks?  Who knows.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> She was his employer.
Click to expand...

$he wa$? I told you he wa$ a $mart guy marrying for money.


----------



## PixieStix

Osomir said:


> S.J. said:
> 
> 
> 
> Gotta be a muslim.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In Yemen? Most likely. Child marriage happens in many non-Islamic majority countries as well though (it is a big problem in parts of Southern Africa, and the rest of Sub-Saharan Africa for that matter). It is also a large problem in India.
> 
> Child marriage is one of those nasty side effects of weak governmental institutions coupled with extreme poverty. It's horrible stuff.
Click to expand...


Excuses, that mean nothing....nothing at all. Pass the buck


----------



## Coyote

Hossfly said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Osomir said:
> 
> 
> 
> Those things are basics of Muhammad's life. She died in 620 and the Hijra didn't take place until 622.
> 
> Also:
> 
> 1.) He married Khadija (who was older than he and with whom he remained monogamous with until her death) long before any sort of military conquest and even before his break with Mecca.
> 
> 2.) Khadija was the one who approached him for marriage, not the other way around.
> 
> 3.) Khadija even died before any military action or war was declared or engaged in and before Muhammad's break with Mecca 9when his uncle died and he lost his social protection from assassination).
> 
> 4.) *Seriously, try actually reading a book. Karen Armstrong's biography on Muhammad* is pretty good and she isn't even a Muslim so you don't have to hate her (she was a former Catholic nun).
> 
> 
> 1, 2, and 3 aren't disputed facts.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ha, that's funny - I have that book on my reading pile to read - I heard her interviewed and was very impressed so I picked up History of God and her biography of Mohammed
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Well, to each his own..........
> 
> Karen Armstrong - WikiIslam
Click to expand...


http://www.experts123.com/q/is-wikiislam-islamophobic-or-a-hate-site.html
Wikiislam is an Islamophobic and a hate website (although it claims to be critical of Islam) that was created in 2006 by "Faith Freedom International" for the purposes of "helping Muslims leave Islam". It has been reported by several news sources including the Associated Press as being a website that shows a "one sided view of Islam" to make "Muslims look backward and stupid" whilst disguising itself as a website that solely "criticises" Islam.

Yes, to each his own...



> Karen Armstrong wants us all to love Islam « Why Evolution Is True



Book Reviews: Book Review of Muhammad: A Biography of the Prophet, by Karen Armstrong
Maybe you should try reading it


----------



## Osomir

Roudy said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> 
> What is there to grasp or not grasp?  *Muslims marry 9 year olds because their prophet did so. You got proof it ain't so? * Show it.
> 
> Islamic studies begins tomorrow at "Sahar" or "Sabah" after morning prayers at the mosque. Be there!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Roudy, *you* are the one making the claim here - it's up to you to show the proof
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Wow, you guys are actually proposing that it ISN'T because of Islam that Muslim men are allowed to marry 9 year olds?  It's pretty much a given, even Muslims realize and admit it.
> 
> Are you actually ready for the barrage of proof about to come down on this thread?
Click to expand...


Christianity was used to justify all manner of things including the trans-Atlantic Slave Trade for example. That doesn't mean it is a causal variable of slavery.


----------



## Roudy

Coyote said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> Child marriages pre-date Islam.
> 
> Can you find me anything in Shariah law that mandates child marriages?
> 
> Your logic isn't working - you are asking him to prove a negative.
> 
> 
> 
> And now a dose of reality:
> Child marriage - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> Lower legally allowed marriage age does not necessarily cause high rates of child marriages. However, there is a causative correlation between restrictions placed by laws and the average age of first marriage. In the United States, per 1960 Census data, 3.5% of girls married before the age of 16, while an additional 11.9% married between 16 and 18. States with lower marriage age limits saw higher percentages of child marriages.[7] This correlation between higher age of marriage in civil law and observed frequency of child marriages breaks down in countries with Islam as the state religion. *In Islamic nations, many countries do not allow child marriage of girls under their civil code of laws. But, the state recognized Sharia religious laws and courts in all these nations have the power to override the civil code, and often do.* *UNICEF reports that the top five nations in the world - Niger (75%), Chad (72%), Mali (71%), Bangladesh (64%), Guinea (63%) - with highest observed child marriage rates are all Islamic majority countries*.[2]
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, though I already pointed out that those countries were amongst the highest - not Saudi Arabia or Iran.  Those countries are also extremely poor.
> 
> If you go to the article that is linked to your quote, it shows how poverty is strongly causitive: http://www.unicef.org/sowc09/docs/SOWC09-CountryExample-Mali.pdf
> 
> What Sharia law mandates child marriages?
> 
> Note - most of these marriages are not young children as you keep going on about, they are teenaged girls.
Click to expand...

Read it again:

"the state recognized Sharia religious laws and courts in all these nations have the power to override the civil code, and often do. UNICEF reports"


----------



## Osomir

Roudy said:


> $he wa$? I told you he wa$ a $mart guy marrying for money.



That's pretty presumptuous for someone who has never read a book on Islam, or a biography of Muhammad, or even knows the contents of the Quran and Hadiths. 

Seriously, i'm just embarrassed for you at this point.


----------



## Roudy

Osomir said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> Roudy, *you* are the one making the claim here - it's up to you to show the proof
> 
> 
> 
> Wow, you guys are actually proposing that it ISN'T because of Islam that Muslim men are allowed to marry 9 year olds?  It's pretty much a given, even Muslims realize and admit it.
> 
> Are you actually ready for the barrage of proof about to come down on this thread?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Christianity was used to justify all manner of things including the trans-Atlantic Slave Trade for example. That doesn't mean it is a causal variable of slavery.
Click to expand...

Keyword "was".


----------



## Coyote

Roudy said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> 
> And now a dose of reality:
> Child marriage - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> Lower legally allowed marriage age does not necessarily cause high rates of child marriages. However, there is a causative correlation between restrictions placed by laws and the average age of first marriage. In the United States, per 1960 Census data, 3.5% of girls married before the age of 16, while an additional 11.9% married between 16 and 18. States with lower marriage age limits saw higher percentages of child marriages.[7] This correlation between higher age of marriage in civil law and observed frequency of child marriages breaks down in countries with Islam as the state religion. *In Islamic nations, many countries do not allow child marriage of girls under their civil code of laws. But, the state recognized Sharia religious laws and courts in all these nations have the power to override the civil code, and often do.* *UNICEF reports that the top five nations in the world - Niger (75%), Chad (72%), Mali (71%), Bangladesh (64%), Guinea (63%) - with highest observed child marriage rates are all Islamic majority countries*.[2]
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, though I already pointed out that those countries were amongst the highest - not Saudi Arabia or Iran.  Those countries are also extremely poor.
> 
> If you go to the article that is linked to your quote, it shows how poverty is strongly causitive: http://www.unicef.org/sowc09/docs/SOWC09-CountryExample-Mali.pdf
> 
> What Sharia law mandates child marriages?
> 
> Note - most of these marriages are not young children as you keep going on about, they are teenaged girls.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> *
> 
> 
> 
> ...the state recognized Sharia religious laws and courts in all these nations have the power to override the civil code, and often do. UNICEF reports that the top five nations in the world - Niger (75%), Chad (72%), Mali (71%), Bangladesh (64%), Guinea (63%) - with highest observed child marriage rates are all Islamic majority countries.[2]
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> *
> Coincidence?!
> 
> I rest my case, your Honor.
Click to expand...


Correlation is not necessarily causality.  True dat.  I can cite countless examples.

So prove causality my friend.



and while we're at it...why is it some folks are only concerned about child abuse in Muslim countries?


----------



## Coyote

Roudy said:


> Osomir said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Wow, you guys are actually proposing that it ISN'T because of Islam that Muslim men are allowed to marry 9 year olds?  It's pretty much a given, even Muslims realize and admit it.
> 
> Are you actually ready for the barrage of proof about to come down on this thread?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Christianity was used to justify all manner of things including the trans-Atlantic Slave Trade for example. That doesn't mean it is a causal variable of slavery.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Keyword "was".
Click to expand...


Nope.  Key words: *That doesn't mean it is a causal variable of slavery*


----------



## Osomir

Coyote said:


> ha, that's funny - I have that book on my reading pile to read - I heard her interviewed and was very impressed so I picked up History of God and her biography of Mohammed



It's really nice because relative to other biographies of Muhammad it is pretty easy to read. English is the language it was written in so it's not a translation, nor was it written in the old classical lingual style, and it manages to not be too dry like some history texts can be. It is probably one of the best biographies of Muhammad to start of with.


----------



## Coyote

Roudy said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> 
> And now a dose of reality:
> Child marriage - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> Lower legally allowed marriage age does not necessarily cause high rates of child marriages. However, there is a causative correlation between restrictions placed by laws and the average age of first marriage. In the United States, per 1960 Census data, 3.5% of girls married before the age of 16, while an additional 11.9% married between 16 and 18. States with lower marriage age limits saw higher percentages of child marriages.[7] This correlation between higher age of marriage in civil law and observed frequency of child marriages breaks down in countries with Islam as the state religion. *In Islamic nations, many countries do not allow child marriage of girls under their civil code of laws. But, the state recognized Sharia religious laws and courts in all these nations have the power to override the civil code, and often do.* *UNICEF reports that the top five nations in the world - Niger (75%), Chad (72%), Mali (71%), Bangladesh (64%), Guinea (63%) - with highest observed child marriage rates are all Islamic majority countries*.[2]
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, though I already pointed out that those countries were amongst the highest - not Saudi Arabia or Iran.  Those countries are also extremely poor.
> 
> If you go to the article that is linked to your quote, it shows how poverty is strongly causitive: http://www.unicef.org/sowc09/docs/SOWC09-CountryExample-Mali.pdf
> 
> What Sharia law mandates child marriages?
> 
> Note - most of these marriages are not young children as you keep going on about, they are teenaged girls.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Read it again:
> 
> "the state recognized Sharia religious laws and courts in all these nations have the power to override the civil code, and often do. UNICEF reports"
Click to expand...


What Sharia law or where in the Quran is child marriage mandated?


----------



## Roudy

Osomir said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> 
> $he wa$? I told you he wa$ a $mart guy marrying for money.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That's pretty presumptuous for someone who has never read a book on Islam, or a biography of Muhammad, or even knows the contents of the Quran and Hadiths.
> 
> Seriously, i'm just embarrassed for you at this point.
Click to expand...

Actually I should say the same about you.  You make all these outrageous unsubstaniated claims and when challenged you never have anything to show.  Other than claim that your knowledge of Islam is more.  I give you that.  But what you would *LIKE TO* promote about Islam and Muslims is not the same as the truth.


----------



## Osomir

Coyote said:


> and while we're at it...why is it some folks are only concerned about child abuse in Muslim countries?



Because he doesn't actually care about child abuse, he seems to simply care about justifying his hatred for Islam.

I also find it rather amusing that he admits that there are other causes for child marriage, but thinks that all Muslim countries are immune to those causes and that it MUST be Islam there.


----------



## Coyote

Osomir said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> and while we're at it...why is it some folks are only concerned about child abuse in Muslim countries?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Because he doesn't actually care about child abuse, he seems to simply care about justifying his hatred for Islam.
> 
> I also find it rather amusing that he admits that there are other causes for child marriage, but thinks that all Muslim countries are immune to those causes and that it MUST be Islam there.
Click to expand...


Sad, because it IS a serious problem world wide and it DOES need attention.  It is very tied in to poverty a host of other reasons that make it difficult to irradicate.

Much easier to simply blame it on a religion.


----------



## Roudy

Coyote said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, though I already pointed out that those countries were amongst the highest - not Saudi Arabia or Iran.  Those countries are also extremely poor.
> 
> If you go to the article that is linked to your quote, it shows how poverty is strongly causitive: http://www.unicef.org/sowc09/docs/SOWC09-CountryExample-Mali.pdf
> 
> What Sharia law mandates child marriages?
> 
> Note - most of these marriages are not young children as you keep going on about, they are teenaged girls.
> 
> 
> 
> *
> 
> 
> 
> ...the state recognized Sharia religious laws and courts in all these nations have the power to override the civil code, and often do. UNICEF reports that the top five nations in the world - Niger (75%), Chad (72%), Mali (71%), Bangladesh (64%), Guinea (63%) - with highest observed child marriage rates are all Islamic majority countries.[2]
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> *
> Coincidence?!
> 
> I rest my case, your Honor.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Correlation is not necessarily causality.  True dat.  I can cite countless examples.
> 
> So prove causality my friend.
> 
> 
> 
> and while we're at it...why is it some folks are only concerned about child abuse in Muslim countries?
Click to expand...

According to the the source I cited, if A- majority of child brides occur in Muslim majority countries
and B- Muslims cite Mohammad's marriage to Aisha as model for such behavior, then C- Islam is the cause of this phenomenon.  

To recap, most sources seem to indicate that the cause for child brides is due to Islamic teachings and Mohammad's life.  Are they bigoted too?  LOL


----------



## Roudy

Osomir said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> and while we're at it...why is it some folks are only concerned about child abuse in Muslim countries?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Because he doesn't actually care about child abuse, he seems to simply care about justifying his hatred for Islam.
> 
> I also find it rather amusing that he admits that there are other causes for child marriage, but thinks that all Muslim countries are immune to those causes and that it MUST be Islam there.
Click to expand...

No I am saying that in Muslim countries where it is legal and culturally acceptable to marry 9 year olds it is because of Mohammad and Islamic teachings.  And so far you haven't been able to make a dent in that claim.  I speak from life experience whereas you speak as a desperado face saver, jumping from one limb to another.  Like I said, you can put lipstick on a pig, and it's still a pig.


----------



## Osomir

Roudy said:


> Keyword "was".



It's still used to justify pretty horrible acts. The war criminal Charles Taylor was a baptist deacon for example, that doesn't make Christianity a causal variable of the Liberian civil war, or of the Conflict in the DR Congo where soldiers of God rape and kill, or of the LRA which burns down school houses. 

It's unfair to treat religion that way, and does a lot of damage by ignoring the real roots of problems concerning these issues.


----------



## Roudy

Osomir said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> ha, that's funny - I have that book on my reading pile to read - I heard her interviewed and was very impressed so I picked up History of God and her biography of Mohammed
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's really nice because relative to other biographies of Muhammad it is pretty easy to read. English is the language it was written in so it's not a translation, nor was it written in the old classical lingual style, and it manages to not be too dry like some history texts can be. It is probably one of the best biographies of Muhammad to start of with.
Click to expand...

The Koran in all it's gory glory serves as the best biography of Mohammad.


----------



## Roudy

Oh my God, I can't believe it.  Now we're back to the same old same old often repeated talking points "soldiers of God"...brrrrrr.  We are talking about child brides in Muslim countries, and the allegation that it is not because of Islam.  Do you guys have anything other than more of these false comparisons.  

You really think people are that stupid to actually believe it has NOTHING TO DO WITH ISLAM AND MOHAMMAD'S MARRIAGE TO AN EIGHT YEAR OLD?  Seriously.


----------



## Coyote

Roudy said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coincidence?!
> 
> I rest my case, your Honor.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Correlation is not necessarily causality.  True dat.  I can cite countless examples.
> 
> So prove causality my friend.
> 
> 
> 
> and while we're at it...why is it some folks are only concerned about child abuse in Muslim countries?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> According to the the source I cited, if A- majority of child brides occur in Muslim majority countries
> and *B- Muslims cite Mohammad's marriage to Aisha as model for such behavior*, then C- Islam is the cause of this phenomenon.
Click to expand...


What Muslims?



> To recap, most sources seem to indicate that the cause for child brides is due to Islamic teachings and Mohammad's life.  Are they bigoted too?  LOL



What "most sources"?


----------



## Coyote

Roudy said:


> Oh my God, I can't believe it.  Now we're back to the same old same old often repeated talking points "soldiers of God"...brrrrrr.  We are talking about child brides in Muslim countries, and the allegation that it is not because of Islam.  Do you guys have anything other than more of these false comparisons.
> 
> You really think people are that stupid to actually believe it has NOTHING TO DO WITH ISLAM AND MOHAMMAD'S MARRIAGE TO AN EIGHT YEAR OLD?  Seriously.



No one is saying it has "nothing" to do with Islam.  After all, there are Christian sects that interpret their teachings to mean they can live in bigamy and marry children too.

Just that it has far less to do with Islam than other reasons.  

Ever notice that the majority of Muslims do NOT marry 9 yr olds?  Strange that.


----------



## Osomir

Roudy said:


> No I am saying that in Muslim countries where it is legal and culturally acceptable to marry 9 year olds it is because of Mohammad and Islamic teachings.  And so far you haven't been able to make a dent in that claim.  I speak from life experience whereas you speak as a desperado face saver, jumping from one limb to another.  Like I said, you can put lipstick on a pig, and it's still a pig.



Yemen is the only country in the world where the state has the marriage age set to nine. In any other country such a marriage if allowed at all would require a formal court ruling. You're being dishonest again. Though Brunei doesn't have a legal age of consent. Even in places where child marriage is highest as a percentage of the population (like Niger) the legal age of marriage is set at 15. 

You may also be interested to know that the Yemeni government is pushing to have the age of marriage set at 16 or 17 currently as well.

you're "street knowledge" isn't serving you too well.


----------



## Roudy

Osomir said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> Roudy, *you* are the one making the claim here - it's up to you to show the proof
> 
> 
> 
> Wow, you guys are actually proposing that it ISN'T because of Islam that Muslim men are allowed to marry 9 year olds?  It's pretty much a given, even Muslims realize and admit it.
> 
> Are you actually ready for the barrage of proof about to come down on this thread?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Christianity was used to justify all manner of things including the trans-Atlantic Slave Trade for example. That doesn't mean it is a causal variable of slavery.
Click to expand...

Sure.  And the word black and slave in in Koran and Arabic "abd or abda" are the same, as Muslims were the biggest slave traders.  For example the name "abdallah" or better known "Abdullah" means slave to Allah.  So therefore by your logic Islam promoted racism and slavery then. But that is not what I am claiming.  

What I am claiming and is indesputable fact, is the reason for Muslim child brides is Mohammad's marriage to Aisha in Islam.


----------



## Osomir

Roudy said:


> The Koran in all it's gory glory serves as the best biography of Mohammad.



And yet, not only have you never read it, you have no idea what is inside it either as was proven earlier.

As a side note, nowhere in the Quran does it state that Muslims are allowed to marry 9 year olds or prepubescent girls. The issue of Aisha comes from hadiths.


----------



## Roudy

Coyote said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> Correlation is not necessarily causality.  True dat.  I can cite countless examples.
> 
> So prove causality my friend.
> 
> 
> 
> and while we're at it...why is it some folks are only concerned about child abuse in Muslim countries?
> 
> 
> 
> According to the the source I cited, if A- majority of child brides occur in Muslim majority countries
> and *B- Muslims cite Mohammad's marriage to Aisha as model for such behavior*, then C- Islam is the cause of this phenomenon.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> What Muslims?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> To recap, most sources seem to indicate that the cause for child brides is due to Islamic teachings and Mohammad's life.  Are they bigoted too?  LOL
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> What "most sources"?
Click to expand...

Aw come on, you of all people, with all your intenet capabilities?  The world is at your fingertips my friend.


----------



## Roudy

Osomir said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> 
> The Koran in all it's gory glory serves as the best biography of Mohammad.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And yet, not only have you never read it, you have no idea what is inside it either as was proven earlier.
> 
> As a side note, nowhere in the Quran does it state that Muslims are allowed to marry 9 year olds or prepubescent girls. The age thing stems solely from hadiths.
Click to expand...

I have read parts of it.


----------



## Osomir

Roudy said:


> No I am saying that in Muslim countries where it is legal and culturally acceptable to marry 9 year olds it is because of Mohammad and Islamic teachings.  And so far you haven't been able to make a dent in that claim.  I speak from life experience whereas you speak as a desperado face saver, jumping from one limb to another.  Like I said, you can put lipstick on a pig, and it's still a pig.



So essentially you are only talking about Yemen then.


----------



## Osomir

Roudy said:


> I have read parts of it.



Not much apparently.


----------



## Coyote

Roudy said:


> Osomir said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Wow, you guys are actually proposing that it ISN'T because of Islam that Muslim men are allowed to marry 9 year olds?  It's pretty much a given, even Muslims realize and admit it.
> 
> Are you actually ready for the barrage of proof about to come down on this thread?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Christianity was used to justify all manner of things including the trans-Atlantic Slave Trade for example. That doesn't mean it is a causal variable of slavery.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Sure.  And the word black and slave in in Koran and Arabic "abd or abda" are the same, as Muslims were the biggest slave traders.  For example the name "abdallah" or better known "Abdullah" means slave to Allah.  So therefore by your logic Islam promoted racism and slavery then. But that is not what I am claiming.
> 
> What I am claiming and is indesputable fact, is *the reason for Muslim child brides is Mohammad's marriage to Aisha in Islam*.
Click to expand...


You've repeated that over and over and over...

but have yet to support it.

Why does child marriage happen?
Thomson Reuters Foundation | News, Information and Connections for Action
Child Marriage - Facts Causes and Consequences of Child Marriage and Sexual Abuse of Children
Child Marriage Factsheet | Equality Now

None mention Mohammad's marriage.  In fact none mention religion as a causitive reason.


----------



## Osomir

Roudy said:


> What I am claiming and is indesputable fact, is the reason for Muslim child brides is Mohammad's marriage to Aisha in Islam.



Then why don't most Islamic countries have their legal marriage age set to 9?


----------



## GHook93

Indofred said:


> Disgusting.
> There is no way in this world that an 8 year old child should have sexual contact of any sort.
> This bastard bloke should have his dick removed with a blunt saw.



Why? Your prophet married Aisha at age 6, when the old man was 53 years OLD! He then bedded her between age 7-9. No matter what age, 9 was pedophillia even back then! 

See Muslims marry and rape children, because follow the great example set by their scumbag prophet! 

It won't change in Yemen, Iraq, Afghanistan, Uzbeckistan, Kosovom Iran, Egypt, Libya or any of the other Muslim shit holes, because Mohammad preserve pedophillia as the muslim man's birth right!


----------



## Osomir

GHook93 said:


> It won't change in Yemen, Iraq, Afghanistan, Uzbeckistan, Kosovom Iran, Egypt, Libya or any of the other Muslim shit holes, because Mohammad preserve pedophillia as the muslim man's birth right!



Yemen is actually debating a law in its legislature that would set the legal age for marriage at 17.

The legal age for marriage in Egypt and Libya is 18 by the way. Higher than many of our states. Uzbekistan is 17.


----------



## Papageorgio

Roudy said:


> S.J. said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Nice job trying to whitewash the practice of Muslim men marrying child brides which goes back to Mohammad marrying an 8 year old. Omir.
> 
> Pedophilia is OK in Islam - YouTube
> 
> 
> 
> She was 6, but he waited until she was 9 before he violated her.  What a guy.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Anything over 12 is considered a geezer in Islamic countries.
Click to expand...


He would have held off longer but she "wanted" him.


----------



## S.J.

Osomir said:


> GHook93 said:
> 
> 
> 
> It won't change in Yemen, Iraq, Afghanistan, Uzbeckistan, Kosovom Iran, Egypt, Libya or any of the other Muslim shit holes, because Mohammad preserve pedophillia as the muslim man's birth right!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yemen is actually debating a law in its legislature that would set the legal age for marriage at 17.
> 
> The legal age for marriage in Egypt and Libya is 18 by the way. Higher than many of our states. Uzbekistan is 17.
Click to expand...

I sense a little desperation on your part, Osomir.  It sounds like you're struggling to convince us that Islam doesn't sanction pedophilia.  Unfortunately, there is too much documentation to the contrary.


----------



## Osomir

S.J. said:


> I sense a little desperation on your part, Osomir.  It sounds like you're struggling to convince us that Islam doesn't sanction pedophilia.  Unfortunately, there is too much documentation to the contrary.



Have you even been reading the thread there sport?


----------



## Hossfly

Osomir said:


> S.J. said:
> 
> 
> 
> I sense a little desperation on your part, Osomir.  It sounds like you're struggling to convince us that Islam doesn't sanction pedophilia.  Unfortunately, there is too much documentation to the contrary.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Have you even been reading the thread there sport?
Click to expand...

Who could miss your defense of child rape and molestation?


----------



## S.J.

Osomir said:


> S.J. said:
> 
> 
> 
> I sense a little desperation on your part, Osomir.  It sounds like you're struggling to convince us that Islam doesn't sanction pedophilia.  Unfortunately, there is too much documentation to the contrary.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Have you even been reading the thread there sport?
Click to expand...

Yes.


----------



## Osomir

S.J. said:


> Yes.



Then feel free to jump in and contribute something. If I'm really "desperate" then it shouldn't be too hard for ya


----------



## S.J.

Osomir said:


> S.J. said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yes.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Then feel free to jump in and contribute something. If I'm really "desperate" then it shouldn't be too hard for ya
Click to expand...

I already have, you must not be reading the thread, Sport.


----------



## Osomir

S.J. said:


> I already have, you must not be reading the thread, Sport.



Must not have been that memorable.


----------



## Hossfly

Osomir said:


> S.J. said:
> 
> 
> 
> I already have, you must not be reading the thread, Sport.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Must not have been that memorable.
Click to expand...

Who Posted? - US Message Board - Political Discussion Forum


----------



## Roudy

Osomir said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> 
> No I am saying that in Muslim countries where it is legal and culturally acceptable to marry 9 year olds it is because of Mohammad and Islamic teachings.  And so far you haven't been able to make a dent in that claim.  I speak from life experience whereas you speak as a desperado face saver, jumping from one limb to another.  Like I said, you can put lipstick on a pig, and it's still a pig.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So essentially you are only talking about Yemen then.
Click to expand...

No I'm talking about the entire Muslim world, where marriage to 9 year olds is practiced to one extent or another.


----------



## Osomir

Roudy said:


> No I'm talking about the entire Muslim world, where marriage to 9 year olds is practiced to one extent or another.



So then why do none of them aside from Yemen have the legal age of marriage set to 9? 

Your theory isn't holding up too well.


----------



## Roudy

Osomir said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> 
> What I am claiming and is indesputable fact, is the reason for Muslim child brides is Mohammad's marriage to Aisha in Islam.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Then why don't most Islamic countries have their legal marriage age set to 9?
Click to expand...

More secular.  I already explained one instance where it was forbidden during the Shah and after it was a free-for-all for Mohammadians.


----------



## Osomir

Roudy said:


> More secular.  I already explained one instance where it was forbidden during the Shah and after it was a free-for-all for Mohammadians.



So every Islamic country outside of Yemen is secular then?


----------



## Roudy

Osomir said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> 
> No I'm talking about the entire Muslim world, where marriage to 9 year olds is practiced to one extent or another.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So then why do none of them aside from Yemen have the legal age of marriage set to 9?
> 
> Your theory isn't holding up too well.
Click to expand...

Do you have a reading comprehension problem?  Pay attention now, from my previous link, and, for the last time:



> *the state recognized Sharia religious laws and courts in all these nations have the power to override the civil code, and often do.* UNICEF reports that the top five nations in the world - Niger (75%), Chad (72%), Mali (71%), Bangladesh (64%), Guinea (63%) - with highest observed child marriage rates are all Islamic majority countries



Comprende?


----------



## Osomir

Roudy said:


> Comprende?



What shariah code mandates child marriage?


----------



## Roudy

I love it when you guys pin yoursleves into an indefensible corner.

Sharia Law has led to the legislation of child marriage in 6 countries

Saudi wives can be not only pre-pubescent, but even babies, because Saudi Arabia has no minimum marriage age at all


By Roddy Newman

While Sharia law courts have created a lot of controversy in Britain, they would be even more controversial if people found out that Sharia has led to the legalisation of child marriage in 6 countries. As the vast majority of people seem to be unaware of Sharia's child marriage dimension, this article only uses mainstream media articles, the UN, a major opinion poll company's Sharia law polling data, and the early biographer of Mohammed who Muslims say is the most reliable, and who states unequivocally that that Mohammed married one of his wives, 'Aisha, when she was a child as its sources.

For example, this 2008 "Times" article about forced child marriages in Nigeria, reveals that there is "fierce resistance" in its mostly Muslim states to a ban on child marriage, because they see such a ban as contrary to Sharia, which is why only one of them has agreed to a modified form of the ban (which outlaws marriage to pre-pubescent girls):

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/africa/article5248224.ece

So why do Nigerian Islamists support child marriage?

Sharia is based on "The Koran", and the "Sunnah" (the words and deeds of Mohammed), and according to Sahih al-Bukhari, who is regarded by Muslims as the most reliable early biographer of their prophet, the founder of Islam married one of his wives, 'Aisha, when she was 6, and consummated that marriage when she was 9, as volume 7, book 62, number 64 of this University of Southern California Center for Muslim-Jewish Engagement translation of Al-Bukhari reveals:

http://www.cmje.org/religious-texts/hadith/bukhari/062-sbt.php

These 4 BBC News, "New York Times", UN, and "Wall Street Journal" articles mention Islamists in Yemen, Niger, and Saudi Arabia who say that Mohammed's child bride is the reason why they are in favour of child marriage:

BBC NEWS | Middle East | Child marriage and divorce in Yemen

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/29/world/middleeast/29marriage.html

IRIN Africa | NIGER: Where childhood ends on the marriage bed | Niger | Children | Education | Gender Issues | Governance | Health & Nutrition | Human Rights 

Cleric Fights Saudi Bid to Ban Child Marriages - WSJ.com

The "Views of harsh punishments" section of this 2010 Pew Research poll, revealed that most Muslims in Nigeria support 3 grotesque, and extremely violent Sharia punishments (stoning adulterers to death, cutting off the hands of thieves, and executing people who abandon their Muslim faith), and that Muslims in Pakistan, Jordan, and Egypt are even more strongly in favour of those 3 punishments, so it is not surprising that, for the same obvious Sharia reason, grotesque child marriages are legal in 4 other mostly Muslim nations, and were until recently legal in another mostly Muslim country:

Muslim Publics Divided on Hamas and Hezbollah | Pew Global Attitudes Project

Saudi Arabian law is based entirely on the harshest of the 3 Sunni schools of Sharia jurisprudence (the "Hanbali"), so it is no surprise that as this 2010 "San Francisco Chronicle" article explains, child marriage is still legal in that country, although the Saudi justice minister said in 2009 that the minimum marriage age should be raised to 18:

Child marriage still an issue in Saudi Arabia - SFGate


Read more: Sharia Law has led to the legislation of child marriage in 6 countries « RAWA News


----------



## Roudy

I love it when you guys pin yoursleves into an indefensible corner.

Sharia Law has led to the legislation of child marriage in 6 countries

*Saudi wives can be not only pre-pubescent, but even babies, because Saudi Arabia has no minimum marriage age at all
*
While Sharia law courts have created a lot of controversy in Britain, they would be even more controversial if people found out that Sharia has led to the legalisation of child marriage in 6 countries. As the vast majority of people seem to be unaware of Sharia's child marriage dimension, this article only uses mainstream media articles, the UN, a major opinion poll company's Sharia law polling data, and the early biographer of Mohammed who Muslims say is the most reliable, and who states unequivocally that that Mohammed married one of his wives, 'Aisha, when she was a child as its sources.

For example, this 2008 "Times" article about forced child marriages in Nigeria, reveals that there is "fierce resistance" in its mostly Muslim states to a ban on child marriage, because they see such a ban as contrary to Sharia, which is why only one of them has agreed to a modified form of the ban (which outlaws marriage to pre-pubescent girls):

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/africa/article5248224.ece

So why do Nigerian Islamists support child marriage?

Sharia is based on "The Koran", and the "Sunnah" (the words and deeds of Mohammed), and according to Sahih al-Bukhari, who is regarded by Muslims as the most reliable early biographer of their prophet, the founder of Islam married one of his wives, 'Aisha, when she was 6, and consummated that marriage when she was 9, as volume 7, book 62, number 64 of this University of Southern California Center for Muslim-Jewish Engagement translation of Al-Bukhari reveals:

http://www.cmje.org/religious-texts/hadith/bukhari/062-sbt.php

These 4 BBC News, "New York Times", UN, and "Wall Street Journal" articles mention Islamists in Yemen, Niger, and Saudi Arabia who say that Mohammed's child bride is the reason why they are in favour of child marriage:

BBC NEWS | Middle East | Child marriage and divorce in Yemen

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/29/world/middleeast/29marriage.html

IRIN Africa | NIGER: Where childhood ends on the marriage bed | Niger | Children | Education | Gender Issues | Governance | Health & Nutrition | Human Rights 

Cleric Fights Saudi Bid to Ban Child Marriages - WSJ.com

The "Views of harsh punishments" section of this 2010 Pew Research poll, revealed that most Muslims in Nigeria support 3 grotesque, and extremely violent Sharia punishments (stoning adulterers to death, cutting off the hands of thieves, and executing people who abandon their Muslim faith), and that Muslims in Pakistan, Jordan, and Egypt are even more strongly in favour of those 3 punishments, so it is not surprising that, for the same obvious Sharia reason, grotesque child marriages are legal in 4 other mostly Muslim nations, and were until recently legal in another mostly Muslim country:

Muslim Publics Divided on Hamas and Hezbollah | Pew Global Attitudes Project

Saudi Arabian law is based entirely on the harshest of the 3 Sunni schools of Sharia jurisprudence (the "Hanbali"), so it is no surprise that as this 2010 "San Francisco Chronicle" article explains, child marriage is still legal in that country, although the Saudi justice minister said in 2009 that the minimum marriage age should be raised to 18:

Child marriage still an issue in Saudi Arabia - SFGate


Read more: Sharia Law has led to the legislation of child marriage in 6 countries « RAWA News


----------



## Osomir

Vomiting up a bunch of google search results isn't a coherent argument there pumpkin.


----------



## Roudy

Osomir said:


> Vomiting up a bunch of google search results isn't a coherent argument there pumpkin.


NY Times, RAWA (Afghan rights website), Pew Global Attitudes Project, Wall Street Journal, BBC News, The Guardian, are not "vomit", fruit pie.


----------



## GHook93

Osomir said:


> GHook93 said:
> 
> 
> 
> It won't change in Yemen, Iraq, Afghanistan, Uzbeckistan, Kosovom Iran, Egypt, Libya or any of the other Muslim shit holes, because Mohammad preserve pedophillia as the muslim man's birth right!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yemen is actually debating a law in its legislature that would set the legal age for marriage at 17.
> 
> The legal age for marriage in Egypt and Libya is 18 by the way. Higher than many of our states. Uzbekistan is 17.
Click to expand...


You fail dude! A law is only a law if it's enforced (kind of like out immigration laws)!



> ?Some girls have been married 60 times by the time they turn 18?
> When young girls are sold into marriage, as 38,000 are every day, they can expect a life with no education and few opportunities, little public autonomy outside of their adult husband's control and an increased risk of death from pregnancy or childbirth, which are the number one killer of girls age 15 to 18 in the developing world. One in seven girls born in the developing world is married by age 15, usually sold by her family.
> 
> But some girls who grow up in Egypt's poor rural communities face an even scarier sort of child marriage: the temporary kind. Sex tourism to Egypt tends to spike in the summer, when wealthy men from Gulf countries flood into Egypt and thousands of underage girls are sold by their parents into temporary "marriages," according to a story by Inter Press Service.
> 
> Egypt's illegal child sex tourism trade appears to have put a regional-friendly spin on the practice by portraying the buying and selling of children as a form of marriage, thus giving them a thin veneer of religious acceptability by circumventing Islamic rules against pre-marital sex. (*Despite a 2008 law banning child marriages, enforcement is thought to be low and an Egyptian official told the Inter Press Service that's it's nearly ceased since the chaos of the 2011 revolution.) *Child marriages are, after all, somewhat common in Arab countries, although not nearly as common as in neighboring regions. And such child marriages often involve "dowries" that human trafficking activists say are akin to a purchase price.
> 
> "Some girls have been married 60 times by the time they turn 18,&#8221; an Egyptian government official who works on the issue told Inter Press Service. "Most &#8216;marriages&#8217; last for just a couple of days or weeks."
> 
> 75 percent of respondents in surveyed rural communities knew girls who were involved in the trade and that most believed that rate was increasing. It estimated that the vast majority of the buyers came from Gulf countries, with 81 percent from Saudi Arabia, 10 percent from the United Arab Emirate and 4 percent from Kuwait.







> http://english.alarabiya.net/en/New...d-brides-in-Egypt-rented-for-summer-1872.html
> Egyptian fixers arrange marriages between girls as young as 11 and much older Gulf men, reported the Inter Press Service News Agency (IPS) recently.
> 
> Egypt&#8217;s sex tourism industry is ongoing despite a 2008 law banning child marriages.
> 
> Also Islam&#8217;s ban on pre-marital sex is being undermined by the phenomenon of quick marriages, sometimes lasting only one day.
> 
> The sham nuptials last as little as a few hours or as much as a couple of years, with the deals hatched by a myriad of &#8220;marriage brokers.&#8221; Many brokers also offer a second service of delivery,&#8221; with village girls as young as 11 brought by the brokers to the Arab tourists&#8217; hotel or rented flat for selection, reported the IPS.


----------



## Uncensored2008

Osomir said:


> Only if you hold the Sahih Muslim and Sahih Bukhari to be cannon. Are you secretly a Sunni Muslim?



You think he went ahead and had her at 6?


----------



## Roudy

Uncensored2008 said:


> Osomir said:
> 
> 
> 
> Only if you hold the Sahih Muslim and Sahih Bukhari to be cannon. Are you secretly a Sunni Muslim?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You think he went ahead and had her at 6?
Click to expand...

Well to be fair, when you speak with a Muslim, they will tell you even though Aisha was 6 or 8 when Mohammad raped her, she had the "maturity" of a 30 year old.  The evidence for that is, she fell in love and adored Mohammad even before she was 6.


----------



## Osomir

GHook93 said:


> You fail dude! A law is only a law if it's enforced (kind of like out immigration laws)!



How do I fail? I very clearly listed weak governmental institutions (which includes governmental legal reach) as a significant factor in child marriage.


----------



## Osomir

Uncensored2008 said:


> You think he went ahead and had her at 6?



No, most of the biographies place her as much older than 9. you'd be more so looking in the mid to late teens at the least.


----------



## Osomir

Roudy said:


> Well to be fair, when you speak with a Muslim, they will tell you even though Aisha was 6 or 8 when Mohammad raped her, she had the "maturity" of a 30 year old.  The evidence for that is, she fell in love and adored Mohammad even before she was 6.



They weren't even in the same geographic area when they were married, and you're being dishonest again going back to eight simply in order to link it to this incident in Yemen.


----------



## Uncensored2008

Osomir said:


> No, most of the biographies place her as much older than 9. you'd be more so looking in the mid to late teens at the least.



Sure.


----------



## Osomir

Uncensored2008 said:


> Osomir said:
> 
> 
> 
> No, most of the biographies place her as much older than 9. you'd be more so looking in the mid to late teens at the least.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sure.
Click to expand...


Dates to keep in mind: Aisha was married in 622; the marriage was consummated three years later.

*
Hadith: *

Both the Bukhari and the Muslim hadith collections place Aisha both at 9 and at much older than 9 when the marriage was consummated.

Both Muslim and Bukhari state that Aisha rode with Muhammad in the Battle of Badr in 624. We see this in the Muslim Hadith collection Book 019, Number 4472. And from Bukhari Volume 4, Book 52, Number 131 we know she was at the battle of Uhud. Badr especially started off as raids and weren't planned. In order to go on a raid or to ride with the men you must be at least 15 years old, so claim both Muslim and Bukhari collections. These can be found in Bukahri Volume 5, Book 59, Number 423 and in Muslim Book 019, Number 4466. Both show that there were age restrictions when it came to riding with the parties. If this is the case, then Aisha must have been at least 13 years old when she was married in 622.

And as I already posted in this thread: 

Bukhari Volume 6, Book 60, Number 399 states that during the revelation of the 54th Quranic verse Aisha makes the statement that the revelation came when she was a playful little girl. The 54th Quranic sura occured no less than 9 years before 622. Which would have made her older than 9 upon marriage and even older upon consummation.


So the hadiths that you guys are relying on contradict themselves (and no, unlike what Roudy claimed, they are not part of the Quran).

*Biographies*

Hisham and Tabari (authors of some of the earliest biographies we have) list Aisha's age as older as well (and Tabari contradicts himself too)

Tabari says that Aisha was already at a marriagable age in the year 615 before Bakr's immigration to Ethiopia (which would have meant that she had already reached puberty). This means that she would still be of suitable age in 622 when she married Muhammad. 

Tabari also said that Aisha converted to Islam before Umar did, which means that Aisha had to have been old enough to make such a desicion on her own (aka she was, at the very least, old enough to talk) around 610 a fact which Hishram supports. Even if she was alive at all in 610 it would have made her older than 9 by 622 and even older when the marriage was consummated.

Hisham states that Aisha was born before the year 610. Which, at the very least, would have made her twelve in 622 when she was married, and 15 when it was consummated. Once again, this is the VERY LEAST age she could have been according to the statement.


----------



## Osomir

Like I said, the only reason to believe that she was 9 is if you hold the specific hadith's in question to be undeniable cannon (and some Muslims absolutely do), but as non-Sunni Muslims there is no reason for us to do so. In fact, in terms of historiography it would be very poor practice to stick to such a hard age given the discrepancies within the historical accounts.


----------



## Osomir

I'm also curious if any of you have ever actually worked in the area of women's rights before, and have ever worked on this issue specifically?


----------



## Coyote

Roudy said:


> These 4 BBC News, "New York Times", UN, and "Wall Street Journal" articles mention Islamists in Yemen, Niger, and Saudi Arabia who say that Mohammed's child bride is the reason why they are in favour of child marriage:



Islamists are considered Islamic extremists aren't they?


----------



## Uncensored2008

Osomir said:


> Like I said, the only reason to believe that she was 9 is if you hold the specific hadith's in question to be undeniable cannon (and some Muslims absolutely do), but as non-Sunni Muslims there is no reason for us to do so. In fact, in terms of historiography it would be very poor practice to stick to such a hard age given the discrepancies within the historical accounts.



I'm not a Muslim at all. Muhammad was a violent warlord who used murder, theft, and rape as the fuel for his war machine. The lust for little girls is entirely consistent with the personality of violent and evil men such as Muhammad. It is also entirely consistent for Muslims to fabricate tales to cover for embarrassing facts. In the end, it is of little consequence, Muhammad was a murdering scumbag regardless of what age Aisha was when he tapped her.


----------



## Osomir

Uncensored2008 said:


> I'm not a Muslim at all. Muhammad was a violent warlord who used murder, theft, and rape as the fuel for his war machine. The lust for little girls is entirely consistent with the personality of violent and evil men such as Muhammad. It is also entirely consistent for Muslims to fabricate tales to cover for embarrassing facts. In the end, it is of little consequence, Muhammad was a murdering scumbag regardless of what age Aisha was when he tapped her.



It doesn't really bother me what you think of Muhammad so go nuts I guess. Have you ever actually read a single biography of him though?


----------



## Uncensored2008

Osomir said:


> It doesn't really bother me what you think of Muhammad so go nuts I guess. Have you ever actually read a single biography of him though?



Several.

In real life, Muhammad was a great deal like Genghis Khan, and nothing at all like the Jesus myth.


----------



## Sunshine

Coyote said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> 
> These 4 BBC News, "New York Times", UN, and "Wall Street Journal" articles mention Islamists in Yemen, Niger, and Saudi Arabia who say that Mohammed's child bride is the reason why they are in favour of child marriage:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Islamists are considered Islamic extremists aren't they?
Click to expand...


Coy dog.  Give up the semantics.  You aren't good at it.

Islamist - definition of Islamist by the Free Online Dictionary, Thesaurus and Encyclopedia.


----------



## Osomir

Uncensored2008 said:


> In real life, Muhammad was a great deal like Genghis Khan, and nothing at all like the Jesus myth.



Then how did you not know about the biographical discrepancies regarding the age of Aisha? 

I agree he wasn't the same as Jesus, He didn't have the luxury of being born within a stable empire as Jesus did, but the notion of him being like Genghis Khan is pretty laughable, particularly when it came to the taking of Mecca.


----------



## Uncensored2008

Osomir said:


> Then how did you not know about the biographical discrepancies regarding the age of Aisha?
> 
> I agree he wasn't the same as Jesus, He didn't have the luxury of being born within a stable empire as Jesus did, but the notion of him being like Genghis Khan is pretty laughable, particularly when it came to the taking of Mecca.



Yawn;

A brutal warlord that ravished the land, murdering all who failed to bow before him, and many who did. His men fought for the promise of booty, both in gold and in women.


----------



## Osomir

Uncensored2008 said:


> A brutal warlord that ravished the land, murdering all who failed to bow before him, and many who did. His men fought for the promise of booty, both in gold and in women.



Doesn't really bother me how you want to view him. But once again I am rather curious how you could have read several biographies of him and not known about the age discrepancies when it came to Aisha.


----------



## S.J.

When it comes right down to it, muslims worship a pedophile.  No escaping that.


----------



## Coyote

S.J. said:


> When it comes right down to it, muslims worship a pedophile.  No escaping that.



So when God raped Mary (12 years old) and made her pregnant...does that mean Christians worship a rapist pedophile?


----------



## Osomir

Apparently S.J. is secretly a conservative Muslim.


----------



## S.J.

Coyote said:


> S.J. said:
> 
> 
> 
> When it comes right down to it, muslims worship a pedophile.  No escaping that.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So when God raped Mary (12 years old) and made her pregnant...does that mean Christians worship a rapist pedophile?
Click to expand...

No sex = No rape.  Nice try.


----------



## Coyote

Sunshine said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> 
> These 4 BBC News, "New York Times", UN, and "Wall Street Journal" articles mention Islamists in Yemen, Niger, and Saudi Arabia who say that Mohammed's child bride is the reason why they are in favour of child marriage:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Islamists are considered Islamic extremists aren't they?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Coy dog.  Give up the semantics.  You aren't good at it.
> 
> Islamist - definition of Islamist by the Free Online Dictionary, Thesaurus and Encyclopedia.
Click to expand...


Exactly:  An Islamic revivalist movement, often characterized by moral conservatism, literalism, and the attempt to implement Islamic values in all spheres of life

That is the most common use of the term - they are Fundies and not mainstream.


----------



## Coyote

S.J. said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> S.J. said:
> 
> 
> 
> When it comes right down to it, muslims worship a pedophile.  No escaping that.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So when God raped Mary (12 years old) and made her pregnant...does that mean Christians worship a rapist pedophile?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> No sex = No rape.  Nice try.
Click to expand...


You can't get pregnant without sex and AI wasn't available then.  Rape of an underage minor.  Love the hypocrisy and cover up.


----------



## S.J.

Coyote said:


> S.J. said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> So when God raped Mary (12 years old) and made her pregnant...does that mean Christians worship a rapist pedophile?
> 
> 
> 
> No sex = No rape.  Nice try.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You can't get pregnant without sex and AI wasn't available then.  Rape of an underage minor.  Love the hypocrisy and cover up.
Click to expand...

If you don't believe The Bible (and the Immaculate Conception), then how can you conclude that God was Jesus' father?


----------



## Osomir

I think we are making the analogy with Christianity too complex. Child marriage was pretty common during Biblical times. It doesn't matter if Jesus was conceived immaculately or not, Mary was still what we would call a child bride and most likely had carnal relations with her husband before she was 18 (unless you are of the opinion that Mary remained a virgin her entire life and that Jesus' siblings were from a previous marriage).

The point is that many of the women of the Bible were probably historically fairly young. That's just the way things were, but that doesn't mean that Christianity has to support child marriage, much in the same way that early practices of child marriage within the Arabian Peninsula doesn't mean that Islam has to support child marriage, there is no theological decree in either religion that requires or even promotes child marriage.


----------



## S.J.

Osomir said:


> I think we are making the analogy with Christianity too complex. Child marriage was pretty common during Biblical times. It doesn't matter if Jesus was conceived immaculately or not, Mary was still what we would call a child bride and most likely had carnal relations with her husband before she was 18 (unless you are of the opinion that Mary remained a virgin her entire life and that Jesus' siblings were from a previous marriage).
> 
> The point is that many of the women of the Bible were probably historically fairly young. That's just the way things were, but that doesn't mean that Christianity has to support child marriage, much in the same way that early practices of child marriage within the Arabian Peninsula doesn't mean that Islam has to support child marriage, there is no theological decree in either religion that requires or even promotes child marriage.


Not her entire life, just until after Jesus.


----------



## Osomir

S.J. said:


> Not her entire life, just until after Jesus.



Right, that's one popular belief, some Christians however do view Mary as remaining a virgin her entire life (particularly within Catholic and Orthodox Catholic schools). It also used to be a pretty popular theory that Jesus' birth did not break Mary's hymen (something accounted in detail in the Gospel of Nicodemus which is apocrypha).


----------



## Coyote

S.J. said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> S.J. said:
> 
> 
> 
> No sex = No rape.  Nice try.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You can't get pregnant without sex and AI wasn't available then.  Rape of an underage minor.  Love the hypocrisy and cover up.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> If you don't believe The Bible (and the Immaculate Conception), then how can you conclude that God was Jesus' father?
Click to expand...


I wasn't the one that made that conclusion.


----------



## Coyote

Osomir said:


> I think we are making the analogy with Christianity too complex. *Child marriage was pretty common during Biblical times.* It doesn't matter if Jesus was conceived immaculately or not, Mary was still what we would call a child bride and most likely had carnal relations with her husband before she was 18 (unless you are of the opinion that Mary remained a virgin her entire life and that Jesus' siblings were from a previous marriage).
> 
> The point is that many of the women of the Bible were probably historically fairly young. That's just the way things were, *but that doesn't mean that Christianity has to support child marriage, much in the same way that early practices of child marriage within the Arabian Peninsula doesn't mean that Islam has to support child marriage, there is no theological decree in either religion that requires or even promotes child marriage*.



Exactly.


----------



## syrenn

Coyote said:


> S.J. said:
> 
> 
> 
> When it comes right down to it, muslims worship a pedophile.  No escaping that.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So when God raped Mary (12 years old) and made her pregnant...does that mean Christians worship a rapist pedophile?
Click to expand...


god did not have sex with mary..... which is why they call it the immaculate conception and also why she is called...._the virgin_ mary.


----------



## bianco

A young woman, 'ethnic', Greek, Italian or such, who used to work with mrs bianco, was pregnant.

She thought the baby was going to leave her body thru her navel.


----------



## Connery

Coyote said:


> S.J. said:
> 
> 
> 
> When it comes right down to it, muslims worship a pedophile.  No escaping that.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So when *God raped Mary (12 years old) and made her pregnant*...does that mean Christians worship a rapist pedophile?
Click to expand...


This is the first time I have ever heard that. Could you cite where your assertion can be verified. 

"The virgin birth of Jesus is the belief that Jesus was conceived in the womb of his mother Mary by the Holy Spirit and born while Mary was yet a virgin. The New Testament references are Matthew 1:18-25 and Luke 1:26-38. The virgin birth is not mentioned in the Pauline epistles, nor is it mentioned in the Gospels of Mark or John.

The virgin birth was universally accepted in the Christian church by the 2nd century, was enshrined in the Apostles Creed, and, except for several minor sects, was not seriously challenged until the 18th century, and remains a basic article of belief in the Roman Catholic, Orthodox, and most Protestant churches. *Muslims also accept the virgin birth of Jesus*"

Even "*the Qur'an says that Jesus was the result of a virgin birth*. The most detailed account of the annunciation and birth of Jesus is provided in Sura 3 (Al Imran) and 19 (Maryam) wherein it is written that God sent an angel to announce that she could shortly expect to bear a son, despite being a virgin. (see  Sarker, Abraham.Understand My Muslim People. 2004 ISBN 1-59498-002-0 page 260)

Virgin birth of Jesus


----------



## syrenn

Connery said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> S.J. said:
> 
> 
> 
> When it comes right down to it, muslims worship a pedophile.  No escaping that.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So when *God raped Mary (12 years old) and made her pregnant*...does that mean Christians worship a rapist pedophile?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> This is the first time I have ever heard that. Could you cite where your assertion can be verified.
> 
> "The virgin birth of Jesus is the belief that Jesus was conceived in the womb of his mother Mary by the Holy Spirit and born while Mary was yet a virgin. The New Testament references are Matthew 1:18-25 and Luke 1:26-38. The virgin birth is not mentioned in the Pauline epistles, nor is it mentioned in the Gospels of Mark or John.
> 
> The virgin birth was universally accepted in the Christian church by the 2nd century, was enshrined in the Apostles Creed, and, except for several minor sects, was not seriously challenged until the 18th century, and remains a basic article of belief in the Roman Catholic, Orthodox, and most Protestant churches. *Muslims also accept the virgin birth of Jesus*"
> 
> Even "*the Qur'an says that Jesus was the result of a virgin birth*. The most detailed account of the annunciation and birth of Jesus is provided in Sura 3 (Al Imran) and 19 (Maryam) wherein it is written that God sent an angel to announce that she could shortly expect to bear a son, despite being a virgin. (see  Sarker, Abraham.Understand My Muslim People. 2004 ISBN 1-59498-002-0 page 260)
> 
> Virgin birth of Jesus
Click to expand...


lol

so the quran says mary was a virgin

and mohomend was a child rapist pedophile. 


works for me.


----------



## Bloodrock44

Connery said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> S.J. said:
> 
> 
> 
> When it comes right down to it, muslims worship a pedophile.  No escaping that.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So when *God raped Mary (12 years old) and made her pregnant*...does that mean Christians worship a rapist pedophile?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> This is the first time I have ever heard that. Could you cite where your assertion can be verified.
> 
> "The virgin birth of Jesus is the belief that Jesus was conceived in the womb of his mother Mary by the Holy Spirit and born while Mary was yet a virgin. The New Testament references are Matthew 1:18-25 and Luke 1:26-38. The virgin birth is not mentioned in the Pauline epistles, nor is it mentioned in the Gospels of Mark or John.
> 
> The virgin birth was universally accepted in the Christian church by the 2nd century, was enshrined in the Apostles Creed, and, except for several minor sects, was not seriously challenged until the 18th century, and remains a basic article of belief in the Roman Catholic, Orthodox, and most Protestant churches. *Muslims also accept the virgin birth of Jesus*"
> 
> Even "*the Qur'an says that Jesus was the result of a virgin birth*. The most detailed account of the annunciation and birth of Jesus is provided in Sura 3 (Al Imran) and 19 (Maryam) wherein it is written that God sent an angel to announce that she could shortly expect to bear a son, despite being a virgin. (see  Sarker, Abraham.Understand My Muslim People. 2004 ISBN 1-59498-002-0 page 260)
> 
> Virgin birth of Jesus
Click to expand...


*Thanks Connery. I believe we are all miracles. Jeremiah 1:5  God says "5 Before I formed you in the womb I knew you,
    before you were born I set you apart;"
God is not a respecter of persons. If He formed Jeremiah in the womb, He formed you and me. That is why this story is so repulsive. Most 9 year olds can't conceive.*


----------



## Hossfly

Osomir said:


> Like I said, the only reason to believe that she was 9 is if you hold the specific hadith's in question to be undeniable cannon (and some Muslims absolutely do), but as non-Sunni Muslims there is no reason for us to do so. In fact, in terms of historiography it would be very poor practice to stick to such a hard age given the discrepancies within the historical accounts.


So since you have said "specific hadith's in question to be undeniable cannon (and some Muslims absolutely do), but as non-Sunni Muslims there is no reason for us to do so.", can you tell us if you are Shia, Ahmadi or some other sect of Islam that we are not aware of?


----------



## Osomir

Hossfly said:


> So since you have said "specific hadith's in question to be undeniable cannon (and some Muslims absolutely do), but as non-Sunni Muslims there is no reason for us to do so.", can you tell us if you are Shia, Ahmadi or some other sect of Islam that we are not aware of?



As i've already stated several times, I'm not a Muslim, nor have I ever been, nor is anyone in my family. 

It's pretty sad how much some of you need be to be some sort of secret Muslim.


----------



## Coyote

Connery said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> S.J. said:
> 
> 
> 
> When it comes right down to it, muslims worship a pedophile.  No escaping that.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So when *God raped Mary (12 years old) and made her pregnant*...does that mean Christians worship a rapist pedophile?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> This is the first time I have ever heard that. Could you cite where your assertion can be verified.
> 
> "The virgin birth of Jesus is the belief that Jesus was conceived in the womb of his mother Mary by the Holy Spirit and born while Mary was yet a virgin. The New Testament references are Matthew 1:18-25 and Luke 1:26-38. The virgin birth is not mentioned in the Pauline epistles, nor is it mentioned in the Gospels of Mark or John.
> 
> The virgin birth was universally accepted in the Christian church by the 2nd century, was enshrined in the Apostles&#8217; Creed, and, except for several minor sects, was not seriously challenged until the 18th century, and remains a basic article of belief in the Roman Catholic, Orthodox, and most Protestant churches. *Muslims also accept the virgin birth of Jesus*"
> 
> Even "*the Qur'an says that Jesus was the result of a virgin birth*. The most detailed account of the annunciation and birth of Jesus is provided in Sura 3 (Al Imran) and 19 (Maryam) wherein it is written that God sent an angel to announce that she could shortly expect to bear a son, despite being a virgin. (see  Sarker, Abraham.Understand My Muslim People. 2004 ISBN 1-59498-002-0 page 260)
> 
> Virgin birth of Jesus
Click to expand...


My sarcasm and tongue got the better of me Connery.  When I listen to people here claiming that Islam is a religion of pedophiles and siding with those beliefs with "thanks" then I will answer that disgusting bigoted dirt in kind.

Yes, it's childish.

















Ok.  It's very childish. 

I am not religious so I do not truly believe in much of the doctrine surrounding immaculate conception, but I do respect such beliefs, just as I respect the beliefs of Jews and Muslims.


----------



## Sunshine

Coyote said:


> Connery said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> So when *God raped Mary (12 years old) and made her pregnant*...does that mean Christians worship a rapist pedophile?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is the first time I have ever heard that. Could you cite where your assertion can be verified.
> 
> "The virgin birth of Jesus is the belief that Jesus was conceived in the womb of his mother Mary by the Holy Spirit and born while Mary was yet a virgin. The New Testament references are Matthew 1:18-25 and Luke 1:26-38. The virgin birth is not mentioned in the Pauline epistles, nor is it mentioned in the Gospels of Mark or John.
> 
> The virgin birth was universally accepted in the Christian church by the 2nd century, was enshrined in the Apostles&#8217; Creed, and, except for several minor sects, was not seriously challenged until the 18th century, and remains a basic article of belief in the Roman Catholic, Orthodox, and most Protestant churches. *Muslims also accept the virgin birth of Jesus*"
> 
> Even "*the Qur'an says that Jesus was the result of a virgin birth*. The most detailed account of the annunciation and birth of Jesus is provided in Sura 3 (Al Imran) and 19 (Maryam) wherein it is written that God sent an angel to announce that she could shortly expect to bear a son, despite being a virgin. (see  Sarker, Abraham.Understand My Muslim People. 2004 ISBN 1-59498-002-0 page 260)
> 
> Virgin birth of Jesus
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> My sarcasm and tongue got the better of me Connery.  When I listen to people here claiming that Islam is a religion of pedophiles and siding with those beliefs with "thanks" then I will answer that disgusting bigoted dirt in kind.
> 
> Yes, it's childish.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ok.  It's very childish.
> 
> I am not religious so I do not truly believe in much of the doctrine surrounding immaculate conception, but I do respect such beliefs, just as I respect the beliefs of Jews and Muslims.
Click to expand...


Coy dog, if a preteen girl dies from a violent sexual assault on her so called wedding night, there is a problem. If you wish not to consider the perp a pedophile, I would have to wonder what your motivation for that is.  Because, not only is he a pedophile, he is also a rapist, and a murderer.   And just a little FYI, to a muslim, particularly those who condone these things, YOU are also an infidel who should be converted to islam at the point of a gun.  

You are as bad at moral equivalency as you are at semantics.   You should hang it up on both.


----------



## Coyote

syrenn said:


> Connery said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> So when *God raped Mary (12 years old) and made her pregnant*...does that mean Christians worship a rapist pedophile?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is the first time I have ever heard that. Could you cite where your assertion can be verified.
> 
> "The virgin birth of Jesus is the belief that Jesus was conceived in the womb of his mother Mary by the Holy Spirit and born while Mary was yet a virgin. The New Testament references are Matthew 1:18-25 and Luke 1:26-38. The virgin birth is not mentioned in the Pauline epistles, nor is it mentioned in the Gospels of Mark or John.
> 
> The virgin birth was universally accepted in the Christian church by the 2nd century, was enshrined in the Apostles Creed, and, except for several minor sects, was not seriously challenged until the 18th century, and remains a basic article of belief in the Roman Catholic, Orthodox, and most Protestant churches. *Muslims also accept the virgin birth of Jesus*"
> 
> Even "*the Qur'an says that Jesus was the result of a virgin birth*. The most detailed account of the annunciation and birth of Jesus is provided in Sura 3 (Al Imran) and 19 (Maryam) wherein it is written that God sent an angel to announce that she could shortly expect to bear a son, despite being a virgin. (see  Sarker, Abraham.Understand My Muslim People. 2004 ISBN 1-59498-002-0 page 260)
> 
> Virgin birth of Jesus
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> lol
> 
> so the quran says mary was a virgin
> 
> and mohomend was a child rapist pedophile.
> 
> 
> works for me.
Click to expand...


Mohammed was not a "child rapist pedophile".  He married 3 adult wives and Aisha's age is controversial.  Child marriages, forced marriages and plural marriages were the common were common in that era but of course some choose to ignore that because it suits their agendas to make out that Islam is a pedophilic relgion.


And the fact that both you and Bloodrock seem to support that while being "OK" with a 12 year old girl being forced into pregnancy (sarcasm alert) is typical of the religious hypocrisy that abounds when it comes to Islam.


----------



## Coyote

Sunshine said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Connery said:
> 
> 
> 
> This is the first time I have ever heard that. Could you cite where your assertion can be verified.
> 
> "The virgin birth of Jesus is the belief that Jesus was conceived in the womb of his mother Mary by the Holy Spirit and born while Mary was yet a virgin. The New Testament references are Matthew 1:18-25 and Luke 1:26-38. The virgin birth is not mentioned in the Pauline epistles, nor is it mentioned in the Gospels of Mark or John.
> 
> The virgin birth was universally accepted in the Christian church by the 2nd century, was enshrined in the Apostles Creed, and, except for several minor sects, was not seriously challenged until the 18th century, and remains a basic article of belief in the Roman Catholic, Orthodox, and most Protestant churches. *Muslims also accept the virgin birth of Jesus*"
> 
> Even "*the Qur'an says that Jesus was the result of a virgin birth*. The most detailed account of the annunciation and birth of Jesus is provided in Sura 3 (Al Imran) and 19 (Maryam) wherein it is written that God sent an angel to announce that she could shortly expect to bear a son, despite being a virgin. (see  Sarker, Abraham.Understand My Muslim People. 2004 ISBN 1-59498-002-0 page 260)
> 
> Virgin birth of Jesus
> 
> 
> 
> 
> My sarcasm and tongue got the better of me Connery.  When I listen to people here claiming that Islam is a religion of pedophiles and siding with those beliefs with "thanks" then I will answer that disgusting bigoted dirt in kind.
> 
> Yes, it's childish.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ok.  It's very childish.
> 
> I am not religious so I do not truly believe in much of the doctrine surrounding immaculate conception, but I do respect such beliefs, just as I respect the beliefs of Jews and Muslims.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Coy dog, if a preteen girl dies from a violent sexual assault on her so called wedding night, there is a problem. If you wish not to consider the perp a pedophile, I would have to wonder what your motivation for that is.  Because, not only is he a pedophile, he is also a rapist, and a murderer.   And just a little FYI, to a muslim, particularly those who condone these things, YOU are also an infidel who should be converted to islam at the point of a gun.
> 
> You are as bad at moral equivalency as you are at semantics.   You should hang it up on both.
Click to expand...


Sunshine - I have absolutely NO tolerance for child marriages and the abuses that go on in much of the uncivilized world.  Oddly enough...people like you ONLY seem to care when it's a Muslim.  Sad that, because it just makes the bigotry more blatent and keeps the focus of attention off the real issues that drive child marriages and forced marriages in those areas of the world along with violence upon women in general.


----------



## Sunshine

Connery said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> S.J. said:
> 
> 
> 
> When it comes right down to it, muslims worship a pedophile.  No escaping that.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So when *God raped Mary (12 years old) and made her pregnant*...does that mean Christians worship a rapist pedophile?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> This is the first time I have ever heard that. Could you cite where your assertion can be verified.
> 
> "The virgin birth of Jesus is the belief that Jesus was conceived in the womb of his mother Mary by the Holy Spirit and born while Mary was yet a virgin. The New Testament references are Matthew 1:18-25 and Luke 1:26-38. The virgin birth is not mentioned in the Pauline epistles, nor is it mentioned in the Gospels of Mark or John.
> 
> The virgin birth was universally accepted in the Christian church by the 2nd century, was enshrined in the Apostles&#8217; Creed, and, except for several minor sects, was not seriously challenged until the 18th century, and remains a basic article of belief in the Roman Catholic, Orthodox, and most Protestant churches. *Muslims also accept the virgin birth of Jesus*"
> 
> Even "*the Qur'an says that Jesus was the result of a virgin birth*. The most detailed account of the annunciation and birth of Jesus is provided in Sura 3 (Al Imran) and 19 (Maryam) wherein it is written that God sent an angel to announce that she could shortly expect to bear a son, despite being a virgin. (see  Sarker, Abraham.Understand My Muslim People. 2004 ISBN 1-59498-002-0 page 260)
> 
> Virgin birth of Jesus
Click to expand...


Mary is generally considered to be about 15, not a preadolescent.  (Incidentally, my grandmother and my mother in law both married at 15.)  No one sold her to God for a dowry.  And God did not 'rape' Mary.   Her pregnancy was announced to her by an angel, and she offered no resistance to the news.  In fact she welcomed her place as the handmaiden of the Lord:



> 26 And in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God unto a city of Galilee, named Nazareth,
> 
> 27 To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary.
> 
> 28 And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.
> 
> 29 And when she saw him, she was troubled at his saying, and cast in her mind what manner of salutation this should be.
> 
> 30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God.
> 
> 31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name Jesus.
> 
> 32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
> 
> 33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.
> 
> 34 Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?
> 
> 35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.
> 
> 36 And, behold, thy cousin Elisabeth, she hath also conceived a son in her old age: and this is the sixth month with her, who was called barren.
> 
> 37 For with God nothing shall be impossible.
> 
> 38 And Mary said, Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it unto me according to thy word. And the angel departed from her.



Luke 1: 26 - 38


----------



## Sunshine

Coyote said:


> Sunshine said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> My sarcasm and tongue got the better of me Connery.  When I listen to people here claiming that Islam is a religion of pedophiles and siding with those beliefs with "thanks" then I will answer that disgusting bigoted dirt in kind.
> 
> Yes, it's childish.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ok.  It's very childish.
> 
> I am not religious so I do not truly believe in much of the doctrine surrounding immaculate conception, but I do respect such beliefs, just as I respect the beliefs of Jews and Muslims.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coy dog, if a preteen girl dies from a violent sexual assault on her so called wedding night, there is a problem. If you wish not to consider the perp a pedophile, I would have to wonder what your motivation for that is.  Because, not only is he a pedophile, he is also a rapist, and a murderer.   And just a little FYI, to a muslim, particularly those who condone these things, YOU are also an infidel who should be converted to islam at the point of a gun.
> 
> You are as bad at moral equivalency as you are at semantics.   You should hang it up on both.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Sunshine - I have absolutely NO tolerance for child marriages and the abuses that go on in much of the uncivilized world.  Oddly enough...people like you ONLY seem to care when it's a Muslim.  Sad that, because it just makes the bigotry more blatent and keeps the focus of attention off the real issues that drive child marriages and forced marriages in those areas of the world along with violence upon women in general.
Click to expand...



You seem to have missed a few posts on here.  I recall several posters claiming that marriage at that age is a 'cultural norm' for that part of the country.  And no, I won't dig them up.  You are supposed to be reading posts.  They are there.  They are just not on _THIS_ thread because the child died.  DUH~!  And you most assuredly DID make a stupid attempt at moral equivalency.  And it was pure bullshit.


----------



## Coyote

Sunshine said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sunshine said:
> 
> 
> 
> Coy dog, if a preteen girl dies from a violent sexual assault on her so called wedding night, there is a problem. If you wish not to consider the perp a pedophile, I would have to wonder what your motivation for that is.  Because, not only is he a pedophile, he is also a rapist, and a murderer.   And just a little FYI, to a muslim, particularly those who condone these things, YOU are also an infidel who should be converted to islam at the point of a gun.
> 
> You are as bad at moral equivalency as you are at semantics.   You should hang it up on both.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sunshine - I have absolutely NO tolerance for child marriages and the abuses that go on in much of the uncivilized world.  Oddly enough...people like you ONLY seem to care when it's a Muslim.  Sad that, because it just makes the bigotry more blatent and keeps the focus of attention off the real issues that drive child marriages and forced marriages in those areas of the world along with violence upon women in general.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> You seem to have missed a few posts on here.  I recall several posters claiming that marriage at that age is a 'cultural norm' for that part of the country.  And no, I won't dig them up.  You are supposed to be reading posts.  They are there.  They are just not on _THIS_ thread because the child died.  DUH~!
Click to expand...



If you don't want to dig it up then please don't bother us with unsupported claims.

And no.  I do not need to read every post.  I have better things to do.  However, feel free to do so if you like.

Marriages to prepubescent girls are not a "cultural norm".  Marriages to young teens are more common in parts of the ME, Africa, India, Asia, Latin America.  Marriages to 8 yr olds are  not..  

What occurred in the OP was absolutely pedophilia and a horrible example of what needs to be stopped.  If you are truly concerned with child abuse it might behoove you to do a google search and find out what drives it in these countries, what world organizations like UNICEF are trying to do to stop it and perhaps support them by actually addressing the issues.

How strange that you view the world wide problem of child marriages and violence upon women as "moral equivalency".  

Of course, if it's simply a vehicle from which to lob your anti-muslim hate, then there isn't much to discuss is there?


----------



## Coyote

Sunshine said:


> Connery said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> So when *God raped Mary (12 years old) and made her pregnant*...does that mean Christians worship a rapist pedophile?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is the first time I have ever heard that. Could you cite where your assertion can be verified.
> 
> "The virgin birth of Jesus is the belief that Jesus was conceived in the womb of his mother Mary by the Holy Spirit and born while Mary was yet a virgin. The New Testament references are Matthew 1:18-25 and Luke 1:26-38. The virgin birth is not mentioned in the Pauline epistles, nor is it mentioned in the Gospels of Mark or John.
> 
> The virgin birth was universally accepted in the Christian church by the 2nd century, was enshrined in the Apostles&#8217; Creed, and, except for several minor sects, was not seriously challenged until the 18th century, and remains a basic article of belief in the Roman Catholic, Orthodox, and most Protestant churches. *Muslims also accept the virgin birth of Jesus*"
> 
> Even "*the Qur'an says that Jesus was the result of a virgin birth*. The most detailed account of the annunciation and birth of Jesus is provided in Sura 3 (Al Imran) and 19 (Maryam) wherein it is written that God sent an angel to announce that she could shortly expect to bear a son, despite being a virgin. (see  Sarker, Abraham.Understand My Muslim People. 2004 ISBN 1-59498-002-0 page 260)
> 
> Virgin birth of Jesus
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Mary is generally considered to be about 15, not a preadolescent.  (Incidentally, my grandmother and my mother in law both married at 15.)  No one sold her to God for a dowry.  And God did not 'rape' Mary.   Her pregnancy was announced to her by an angel, and she offered no resistance to the news.  In fact she welcomed her place as the handmaiden of the Lord:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 26 And in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God unto a city of Galilee, named Nazareth,
> 
> 27 To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary.
> 
> 28 And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.
> 
> 29 And when she saw him, she was troubled at his saying, and cast in her mind what manner of salutation this should be.
> 
> 30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God.
> 
> 31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name Jesus.
> 
> 32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
> 
> 33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.
> 
> 34 Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?
> 
> 35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.
> 
> 36 And, behold, thy cousin Elisabeth, she hath also conceived a son in her old age: and this is the sixth month with her, who was called barren.
> 
> 37 For with God nothing shall be impossible.
> 
> 38 And Mary said, Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it unto me according to thy word. And the angel departed from her.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Luke 1: 26 - 38
Click to expand...



Like Aisha, there is conflict about her age as, like with Aisha - much of it was written long after the events.  

Mary The Mother Of Jesus - Profile Of The Virgin Mary

Marriages at 12 were the cultural norm at that time.

http://www.truthortradition.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=1167


> In ancient Israel, girls married in their teens, even early teens. [2] For Mary to be betrothed (engaged) but not yet formally married, yet old enough to have and nurse the Messiah, she would have been 12-14. The Zondervan Pictorial Encyclopedia of the Bible points out, &#8220;It appears that both boys and girls were married very young. Later [after the New Testament period] the rabbis fixed the minimum age for marriage at twelve for girls and thirteen for boys.&#8221; [3]



As to the age of Aisha - again, controversy: http://www.muslim.org/islam/aisha-age.htm


But hey - it's nicer to be able to call Mohammed a "rapist pedophile" and ignore similar in Christianity or to simply acknowledge that the norms historically were very different and literature is not clear.


----------



## toastman

Coyote, not that it matter, but are you Muslim ?


----------



## S.J.

For someone who claims to not be a muslim, and against child marriages, Coyote seems to be going to great lengths to defend the pervert Muhammed.


----------



## Sunshine

Coyote said:


> Sunshine said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Connery said:
> 
> 
> 
> This is the first time I have ever heard that. Could you cite where your assertion can be verified.
> 
> "The virgin birth of Jesus is the belief that Jesus was conceived in the womb of his mother Mary by the Holy Spirit and born while Mary was yet a virgin. The New Testament references are Matthew 1:18-25 and Luke 1:26-38. The virgin birth is not mentioned in the Pauline epistles, nor is it mentioned in the Gospels of Mark or John.
> 
> The virgin birth was universally accepted in the Christian church by the 2nd century, was enshrined in the Apostles&#8217; Creed, and, except for several minor sects, was not seriously challenged until the 18th century, and remains a basic article of belief in the Roman Catholic, Orthodox, and most Protestant churches. *Muslims also accept the virgin birth of Jesus*"
> 
> Even "*the Qur'an says that Jesus was the result of a virgin birth*. The most detailed account of the annunciation and birth of Jesus is provided in Sura 3 (Al Imran) and 19 (Maryam) wherein it is written that God sent an angel to announce that she could shortly expect to bear a son, despite being a virgin. (see  Sarker, Abraham.Understand My Muslim People. 2004 ISBN 1-59498-002-0 page 260)
> 
> Virgin birth of Jesus
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mary is generally considered to be about 15, not a preadolescent.  (Incidentally, my grandmother and my mother in law both married at 15.)  No one sold her to God for a dowry.  And God did not 'rape' Mary.   Her pregnancy was announced to her by an angel, and she offered no resistance to the news.  In fact she welcomed her place as the handmaiden of the Lord:
> 
> 
> 
> Luke 1: 26 - 38
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Like Aisha, there is conflict about her age as, like with Aisha - much of it was written long after the events.
> 
> Mary The Mother Of Jesus - Profile Of The Virgin Mary
> 
> Marriages at 12 were the cultural norm at that time.
> 
> Truth Or Tradition - Does the Bible say how old / at what age Mary became pregnant with Jesus?
> 
> 
> 
> In ancient Israel, girls married in their teens, even early teens. [2] For Mary to be betrothed (engaged) but not yet formally married, yet old enough to have and nurse the Messiah, she would have been 12-14. The Zondervan Pictorial Encyclopedia of the Bible points out, &#8220;It appears that both boys and girls were married very young. Later [after the New Testament period] the rabbis fixed the minimum age for marriage at twelve for girls and thirteen for boys.&#8221; [3]
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> As to the age of Aisha - again, controversy: Age of Aisha (ra) at time of marriage
> 
> 
> But hey - it's nicer to be able to call Mohammed a "rapist pedophile" and ignore similar in Christianity or to simply acknowledge that the norms historically were very different and literature is not clear.
Click to expand...


Well here's a flash.  9 years old, which is the age of the child in the OP, is not even an _early _teen.  And Mary didn't give birth at age 9.  So in addition to your failed moral equivalency, and your failed semantics games, it appears you also cannot read or count.


----------



## Sunshine

S.J. said:


> For someone who claims to not be a muslim, and against child marriages, Coyote seems to be going to great lengths to defend the pervert Muhammed.



That she does.


----------



## Hossfly

Osomir said:


> Hossfly said:
> 
> 
> 
> So since you have said "specific hadith's in question to be undeniable cannon (and some Muslims absolutely do), but as non-Sunni Muslims there is no reason for us to do so.", can you tell us if you are Shia, Ahmadi or some other sect of Islam that we are not aware of?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As i've already stated several times, I'm not a Muslim, nor have I ever been, nor is anyone in my family.
> 
> It's pretty sad how much some of you need be to be some sort of secret Muslim.
Click to expand...

It really doesn't matter what you are, Miss Osomir, but when a poster says "but as non-Sunni Muslims there is no reason for us to do so," I think many of the viewers will think you are speaking of yourself as a Muslim..


----------



## syrenn

Coyote said:


> syrenn said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Connery said:
> 
> 
> 
> This is the first time I have ever heard that. Could you cite where your assertion can be verified.
> 
> "The virgin birth of Jesus is the belief that Jesus was conceived in the womb of his mother Mary by the Holy Spirit and born while Mary was yet a virgin. The New Testament references are Matthew 1:18-25 and Luke 1:26-38. The virgin birth is not mentioned in the Pauline epistles, nor is it mentioned in the Gospels of Mark or John.
> 
> The virgin birth was universally accepted in the Christian church by the 2nd century, was enshrined in the Apostles Creed, and, except for several minor sects, was not seriously challenged until the 18th century, and remains a basic article of belief in the Roman Catholic, Orthodox, and most Protestant churches. *Muslims also accept the virgin birth of Jesus*"
> 
> Even "*the Qur'an says that Jesus was the result of a virgin birth*. The most detailed account of the annunciation and birth of Jesus is provided in Sura 3 (Al Imran) and 19 (Maryam) wherein it is written that God sent an angel to announce that she could shortly expect to bear a son, despite being a virgin. (see  Sarker, Abraham.Understand My Muslim People. 2004 ISBN 1-59498-002-0 page 260)
> 
> Virgin birth of Jesus
> 
> 
> 
> 
> lol
> 
> so the quran says mary was a virgin
> 
> and mohomend was a child rapist pedophile.
> 
> 
> works for me.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Mohammed was not a "child rapist pedophile".  He married 3 adult wives and Aisha's age is controversial.  Child marriages, forced marriages and plural marriages were the common were common in that era but of course some choose to ignore that because it suits their agendas to make out that Islam is a pedophilic relgion.
> 
> 
> And the fact that both you and Bloodrock seem to support that while being "OK" with a 12 year old girl being forced into pregnancy (sarcasm alert) is typical of the religious hypocrisy that abounds when it comes to Islam.
Click to expand...


i dont care if it was "the accepted norm back then" 

An adult male wanted to fuck a very young prepubescent child.... and is revered for it.  Marrying the molested child does not make one bit better....  its still a pedophile.


----------



## Sunshine

syrenn said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> syrenn said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> lol
> 
> so the quran says mary was a virgin
> 
> and mohomend was a child rapist pedophile.
> 
> 
> works for me.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mohammed was not a "child rapist pedophile".  He married 3 adult wives and Aisha's age is controversial.  Child marriages, forced marriages and plural marriages were the common were common in that era but of course some choose to ignore that because it suits their agendas to make out that Islam is a pedophilic relgion.
> 
> 
> And the fact that both you and Bloodrock seem to support that while being "OK" with a 12 year old girl being forced into pregnancy (sarcasm alert) is typical of the religious hypocrisy that abounds when it comes to Islam.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> i dont care if it was "the accepted norm back then"
> 
> An adult male wanted to fuck a very young prepubescent child.... and is revered for it.  Marrying the molested child does not make one bit better....  its still a pedophile.
Click to expand...


It is disgusting to see these sub humans defending this shit and/or trying to arrive at some moral equivalency.


----------



## Coyote

All religions - at least the major world religions of today, offer much good in terms of civilized behavior, charity and compassion. They all have some version of the golden rule.  To me, personally, to see the denigration of a religion by calling it's prophet a pedophile - is just plain wrong.  Historical norms were different, and more important historical accounts as to the age of the Aisha are contradictory.  Like with Mary - events were written about long long after the death's of the participants.

Today there is much good and much evil in most religions depending on how they are interpreted.  Whether it's brutal child marriages or forced marriages ala Jeffers - it's wrong.  But to taint an entire faith and to smear a faith's prophet by the actions of adherents who live in a culture where child marriages preceded the faith is wrong.

Child marriages are way wrong.  And they occur in lands of many faiths.  In the Abrahamic religions they are rooted in history.  Even the Catholic Christian church has it's problems with pedohilia.  But I don't think that is representative of the entire religion. 

In ancient times marriages occured very young and people died very young.  Aisha's age is highly controversial and it is used by Islamophobes in an attempt to portray Islam as a religion of pedophiles.  My personal feeling is that is wrong and bigoted. It is accusations like that that feed events like the holocaust.

I know what Sunshine will say - moral equivalancy.  Well, Sunshine - it's hard for me to really dislike you since I've seen your picture.  You now seem like a real person.  I don't agree.  It is not a false equivelency.  It's a realization that these are all real human beings.  They deserve respect until they, individually, prove otherwise.  It's the same with faiths.  I know a number of Muslims, and not one would accept pedophilia as an acceptable marriage.

Demonizing an entire people or faith - especially a faith as complex and diverse as Islam, Christianity, or Judaism is dangerous.  And Evil.  That's simply my opinion.


----------



## Osomir

It's childish how much you guys need us to be secret Muslims and reeks of insecurity.


----------



## Hossfly

Osomir said:


> It's childish how much you guys need us to be secret Muslims and reeks of insecurity.


Methinks the lady doth protest too much.


----------



## Roudy

Muslims themselves do not deny that Aisha was 9 when she married Mohammad. The evidence is overwhelming.  And that's the exact reason they cite for marrying 9 year olds in Muslim countries.  I find it hilarious that some who call themselves objective show their utter bias by making it look like its "controversial".  

It's these kinds of moments that show a persons true agenda.


----------



## Roudy

Hossfly said:


> Osomir said:
> 
> 
> 
> It's childish how much you guys need us to be secret Muslims and reeks of insecurity.
> 
> 
> 
> Methinks the lady doth protest too much.
Click to expand...

Omir thinks she fooling anybody. If it quacks like a duck, walks like a duck, and posts like a duck....


----------



## Roudy

Osomir said:


> I'm also curious if any of you have ever actually worked in the area of women's rights before, and have ever worked on this issue specifically?


Women's rights in the Muslim world?  Ha ha ha.  

Excuse me while I get off the floor.  Okay.  Please continue, you were saying....


----------



## Roudy

Sunshine said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> 
> These 4 BBC News, "New York Times", UN, and "Wall Street Journal" articles mention Islamists in Yemen, Niger, and Saudi Arabia who say that Mohammed's child bride is the reason why they are in favour of child marriage:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Islamists are considered Islamic extremists aren't they?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Coy dog.  Give up the semantics.  You aren't good at it.
> 
> Islamist - definition of Islamist by the Free Online Dictionary, Thesaurus and Encyclopedia.
Click to expand...

Yep.


----------



## Sunshine

Coyote said:


> All religions - at least the major world religions of today, offer much good in terms of civilized behavior, charity and compassion. They all have some version of the golden rule.  To me, personally, to see the denigration of a religion by calling it's prophet a pedophile - is just plain wrong.  Historical norms were different, and more important historical accounts as to the age of the Aisha are contradictory.  Like with Mary - events were written about long long after the death's of the participants.
> 
> Today there is much good and much evil in most religions depending on how they are interpreted.  Whether it's brutal child marriages or forced marriages ala Jeffers - it's wrong.  But to taint an entire faith and to smear a faith's prophet by the actions of adherents who live in a culture where child marriages preceded the faith is wrong.
> 
> Child marriages are way wrong.  And they occur in lands of many faiths.  In the Abrahamic religions they are rooted in history.  Even the Catholic Christian church has it's problems with pedohilia.  But I don't think that is representative of the entire religion.
> 
> In ancient times marriages occured very young and people died very young.  Aisha's age is highly controversial and it is used by Islamophobes in an attempt to portray Islam as a religion of pedophiles.  My personal feeling is that is wrong and bigoted. It is accusations like that that feed events like the holocaust.
> 
> I know what Sunshine will say - moral equivalancy.  Well, Sunshine - it's hard for me to really dislike you since I've seen your picture.  You now seem like a real person.  I don't agree.  It is not a false equivelency.  It's a realization that these are all real human beings.  They deserve respect until they, individually, prove otherwise.  It's the same with faiths.  I know a number of Muslims, and not one would accept pedophilia as an acceptable marriage.
> 
> Demonizing an entire people or faith - especially a faith as complex and diverse as Islam, Christianity, or Judaism is dangerous.  And Evil.  That's simply my opinion.



I don't care what you think or what you deem to be morally equivalent or what history is or was.  Raping a 9 year old girl to the point of death is NOT a social 'norm.'  It is murder.  You continue to justify the murder of this little child.  Post after post, you justify it in terms of what you consider to be morally equivalent, and socially acceptable.  You are seriously perverted and you need serious help.  Not only that, you are vile and disgusting.  

I only worked with children in my profession for a short time.  I simply could not cope with the feelings that seeing the ways they had been abused by adults provoked caused me.  It IS possible for a child that young to be introduced to sex without killing her.  I know because one of my patients was 8 and her father, a local celeb in Nashville, had been having sex with her since she was 5.  By age 8 she had a vagina which, on gyn exam, appeared as a fully adult vagina.  Merely having sex with a young child will not kill her particularly if the person introduces the act to her in stages.  Having violent, combative, assaultive sex will however tear the vagina, and the colon, and cause her to bleed to death just like the girl in the OP.

Even Sunni Man hasn't touched this one.  If he has I haven't seen it.  And he and I hotly disagreed over the Laura Logan incident in Egypt.  I suspect he has raised daughters and finds this to be disgusting enough that, unlike you, he wouldn't even make any attempt at some perverted moral equivalency test.


----------



## Osomir

Hossfly said:


> Osomir said:
> 
> 
> 
> It's childish how much you guys need us to be secret Muslims and reeks of insecurity.
> 
> 
> 
> Methinks the lady doth protest too much.
Click to expand...


Stop acting childish and insecure and i'll stop calling you on it.


----------



## Ernie S.

Coyote said:


> All religions - at least the major world religions of today, offer much good in terms of civilized behavior, charity and compassion. They all have some version of the golden rule.  To me, personally, to see the denigration of a religion by calling it's prophet a pedophile - is just plain wrong.  Historical norms were different, and more important historical accounts as to the age of the Aisha are contradictory.  Like with Mary - events were written about long long after the death's of the participants.
> 
> Today there is much good and much evil in most religions depending on how they are interpreted.  Whether it's brutal child marriages or forced marriages ala Jeffers - it's wrong.  But to taint an entire faith and to smear a faith's prophet by the actions of adherents who live in a culture where child marriages preceded the faith is wrong.
> 
> Child marriages are way wrong.  And they occur in lands of many faiths.  In the Abrahamic religions they are rooted in history.  Even the Catholic Christian church has it's problems with pedohilia.  But I don't think that is representative of the entire religion.
> 
> In ancient times marriages occured very young and people died very young.  Aisha's age is highly controversial and it is used by Islamophobes in an attempt to portray Islam as a religion of pedophiles.  My personal feeling is that is wrong and bigoted. It is accusations like that that feed events like the holocaust.
> 
> I know what Sunshine will say - moral equivalancy.  Well, Sunshine - it's hard for me to really dislike you since I've seen your picture.  You now seem like a real person.  I don't agree.  It is not a false equivelency.  It's a realization that these are all real human beings.  They deserve respect until they, individually, prove otherwise.  It's the same with faiths.  I know a number of Muslims, and not one would accept pedophilia as an acceptable marriage.
> 
> Demonizing an entire people or faith - especially a faith as complex and diverse as Islam, Christianity, or Judaism is dangerous.  And Evil.  That's simply my opinion.



This is a classic example of a post that needs a "no thank you" button.
Attempting to justify the culturally acceptable marriage and subsequent death of a little girl with the unacceptable pedophilia of a small number of Catholic priests or Judeo-Christion customs abandoned a couple hundred years ago, disgusts me.


----------



## Sunshine

Ernie S. said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> All religions - at least the major world religions of today, offer much good in terms of civilized behavior, charity and compassion. They all have some version of the golden rule.  To me, personally, to see the denigration of a religion by calling it's prophet a pedophile - is just plain wrong.  Historical norms were different, and more important historical accounts as to the age of the Aisha are contradictory.  Like with Mary - events were written about long long after the death's of the participants.
> 
> Today there is much good and much evil in most religions depending on how they are interpreted.  Whether it's brutal child marriages or forced marriages ala Jeffers - it's wrong.  But to taint an entire faith and to smear a faith's prophet by the actions of adherents who live in a culture where child marriages preceded the faith is wrong.
> 
> Child marriages are way wrong.  And they occur in lands of many faiths.  In the Abrahamic religions they are rooted in history.  Even the Catholic Christian church has it's problems with pedohilia.  But I don't think that is representative of the entire religion.
> 
> In ancient times marriages occured very young and people died very young.  Aisha's age is highly controversial and it is used by Islamophobes in an attempt to portray Islam as a religion of pedophiles.  My personal feeling is that is wrong and bigoted. It is accusations like that that feed events like the holocaust.
> 
> I know what Sunshine will say - moral equivalancy.  Well, Sunshine - it's hard for me to really dislike you since I've seen your picture.  You now seem like a real person.  I don't agree.  It is not a false equivelency.  It's a realization that these are all real human beings.  They deserve respect until they, individually, prove otherwise.  It's the same with faiths.  I know a number of Muslims, and not one would accept pedophilia as an acceptable marriage.
> 
> Demonizing an entire people or faith - especially a faith as complex and diverse as Islam, Christianity, or Judaism is dangerous.  And Evil.  That's simply my opinion.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is a classic example of a post that needs a "no thank you" button.
> Attempting to justify the culturally acceptable marriage and subsequent death of a little girl with the unacceptable pedophilia of a small number of Catholic priests or Judeo-Christion customs abandoned a couple hundred years ago, disgusts me.
Click to expand...


Of course she is our moral superior here, passing judgment upon the appropriateness of our posts.  That's a laugh and a half.


----------



## Ernie S.

She just wants to appear reasonable to all sides and falls miserably short. Remind you of any other Fake Republicans here?

Take a stand and I will respect you, whether I agree or not. Waffle on issues and excuse abhorrent behavior, and you lose respect.


----------



## Sunshine

Ernie S. said:


> She just wants to appear reasonable to all sides and falls miserably short. Remind you of any other Fake Republicans here?
> 
> Take a stand and I will respect you, whether I agree or not. Waffle on issues and excuse abhorrent behavior, and you lose respect.



OH yeah!


----------



## Coyote

Ernie S. said:


> She just wants to appear reasonable to all sides and falls miserably short. Remind you of any other Fake Republicans here?
> 
> Take a stand and I will respect you, whether I agree or not. Waffle on issues and excuse abhorrent behavior, and you lose respect.



Specifically Ernie, where am I *excusing *it?  Feel free to provide a link.


----------



## Coyote

Sunshine said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> I don't care what you think or what you deem to be morally equivalent or what history is or was.  Raping a 9 year old girl to the point of death is NOT a social 'norm.'  It is murder.  You continue to justify the murder of this little child.  Post after post, *you justify it* in terms of what you consider to be morally equivalent, and socially acceptable.  You are seriously perverted and you need serious help.  Not only that, you are vile and disgusting.
Click to expand...


Time to put up or shut up Sunshine.  Where am I *justifying *it?

Where have I said "r*aping a 9 year old girl to the point of death*" is a "*social norm*" - link please.


----------



## Lipush

this sad phenomenon of child-brids should be dealt in law by the Yemen(ite?) government. if it's not stricly prohibited by law, and enforced by it, then its just up to human-rights to deal with this.

Wonder why Yemen, though.

Off-topic question, sorry, but it's urgent. Does any of you know people or has relatives in Germany?


----------



## Bloodrock44

Lipush said:


> this sad phenomenon of child-brids should be dealt in law by the Yemen(ite?) government. if it's not stricly prohibited by law, and enforced by it, then its just up to human-rights to deal with this.
> 
> Wonder why Yemen, though.
> 
> Off-topic question, sorry, but it's urgent. Does any of you know people or has relatives in Germany?



I have many relatives in Germany [MENTION=36574]Lipush[/MENTION]


----------



## Coyote

Roudy said:


> Muslims themselves do not deny that Aisha was 9 when she married Mohammad. The evidence is overwhelming.  And that's the exact reason they cite for marrying 9 year olds in Muslim countries.  I find it hilarious that some who call themselves objective show their utter bias by making it look like its "controversial".
> 
> *It's these kinds of moments that show a persons true agenda*.



Yes, it truly does.  It brings the bigots crawling out of the walls.


----------



## Ernie S.

Coyote said:


> Sunshine said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> All religions - at least the major world religions of today, offer much good in terms of civilized behavior, charity and compassion. They all have some version of the golden rule.  To me, personally, to see the denigration of a religion by calling it's prophet a pedophile - is just plain wrong.  Historical norms were different, and more important historical accounts as to the age of the Aisha are contradictory.  Like with Mary - events were written about long long after the death's of the participants.
> 
> Today there is much good and much evil in most religions depending on how they are interpreted.  Whether it's brutal child marriages or forced marriages ala Jeffers - it's wrong.  But to taint an entire faith and to smear a faith's prophet by the actions of adherents who live in a culture where child marriages preceded the faith is wrong.
> 
> Child marriages are way wrong.  And they occur in lands of many faiths.  In the Abrahamic religions they are rooted in history.  Even the Catholic Christian church has it's problems with pedohilia.  But I don't think that is representative of the entire religion.
> 
> In ancient times marriages occured very young and people died very young.  Aisha's age is highly controversial and it is used by Islamophobes in an attempt to portray Islam as a religion of pedophiles.  My personal feeling is that is wrong and bigoted. It is accusations like that that feed events like the holocaust.
> 
> I know what Sunshine will say - moral equivalancy.  Well, Sunshine - it's hard for me to really dislike you since I've seen your picture.  You now seem like a real person.  I don't agree.  It is not a false equivelency.  It's a realization that these are all real human beings.  They deserve respect until they, individually, prove otherwise.  It's the same with faiths.  I know a number of Muslims, and not one would accept pedophilia as an acceptable marriage.
> 
> Demonizing an entire people or faith - especially a faith as complex and diverse as Islam, Christianity, or Judaism is dangerous.  And Evil.  That's simply my opinion.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I don't care what you think or what you deem to be morally equivalent or what history is or was.  Raping a 9 year old girl to the point of death is NOT a social 'norm.'  It is murder.  You continue to justify the murder of this little child.  Post after post, you justify it in terms of what you consider to be morally equivalent, and socially acceptable.  You are seriously perverted and you need serious help.  Not only that, you are vile and disgusting.
> 
> I only worked with children in my profession for a short time.  I simply could not cope with the feelings that seeing the ways they had been abused by adults provoked caused me.  It IS possible for a child that young to be introduced to sex without killing her.  I know because one of my patients was 8 and her father, a local celeb in Nashville, had been having sex with her since she was 5.  By age 8 she had a vagina which, on gyn exam, appeared as a fully adult vagina.  Merely having sex with a young child will not kill her particularly if the person introduces the act to her in stages.  Having violent, combative, assaultive sex will however tear the vagina, and the colon, and cause her to bleed to death just like the girl in the OP.
> 
> Even Sunni Man hasn't touched this one.  If he has I haven't seen it.  And he and I hotly disagreed over the Laura Logan incident in Egypt.  I suspect he has raised daughters and finds this to be disgusting enough that, unlike you, he wouldn't even make any attempt at some perverted moral equivalency test.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> What is disgusting is you only care about child abuse when it's Muslims.
> 
> Not one peep from you when it occurs elsewhere - not even condemnation.  Let me count the posts....
> 
> oh wait...there aren't any.
> 
> That is perverted.
> 
> India has a huge problem with child marriages, forced marriages and violence upon women.  Apparently that is ok with you all.
Click to expand...


Post the stories. Sunshine me, and every other person who is condemning this little girl's death will join you in condemnation.
The subject of the OP was an 8 year old little Muslim girl, not child marriages in India, or Catholic priests or long since abandoned Judeo-Christian customs.
Have something relevant? Start a thread.


----------



## Coyote

Ernie S. said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sunshine said:
> 
> 
> 
> I don't care what you think or what you deem to be morally equivalent or what history is or was.  Raping a 9 year old girl to the point of death is NOT a social 'norm.'  It is murder.  You continue to justify the murder of this little child.  Post after post, you justify it in terms of what you consider to be morally equivalent, and socially acceptable.  You are seriously perverted and you need serious help.  Not only that, you are vile and disgusting.
> 
> I only worked with children in my profession for a short time.  I simply could not cope with the feelings that seeing the ways they had been abused by adults provoked caused me.  It IS possible for a child that young to be introduced to sex without killing her.  I know because one of my patients was 8 and her father, a local celeb in Nashville, had been having sex with her since she was 5.  By age 8 she had a vagina which, on gyn exam, appeared as a fully adult vagina.  Merely having sex with a young child will not kill her particularly if the person introduces the act to her in stages.  Having violent, combative, assaultive sex will however tear the vagina, and the colon, and cause her to bleed to death just like the girl in the OP.
> 
> Even Sunni Man hasn't touched this one.  If he has I haven't seen it.  And he and I hotly disagreed over the Laura Logan incident in Egypt.  I suspect he has raised daughters and finds this to be disgusting enough that, unlike you, he wouldn't even make any attempt at some perverted moral equivalency test.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What is disgusting is you only care about child abuse when it's Muslims.
> 
> Not one peep from you when it occurs elsewhere - not even condemnation.  Let me count the posts....
> 
> oh wait...there aren't any.
> 
> That is perverted.
> 
> India has a huge problem with child marriages, forced marriages and violence upon women.  Apparently that is ok with you all.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Post the stories. Sunshine me, and every other person who is condemning this little girl's death will join you in condemnation.
> The subject of the OP was an 8 year old little Muslim girl, not child marriages in India, or Catholic priests or long since abandoned Judeo-Christian customs.
> Have something relevant? Start a thread.
Click to expand...


So tell me Ernie,  the Catholic religion has a huge problem with pedophilic priests (no, not just a handful) - and worse, cover up.  There have been numerous threads on that over time.

How do you feel about that?  Is it OK because it's not Muslim?  Or, more to the point - how come you aren't accusing Catholicism of being a pervert religion?  Because it's not Muslim and it's "ok" to hate Muslims?  That's what comes out of this shit.  Look at the posts.  How many of your and Sunshines posts are concerned about the victim here and how many are, instead, intent on villifying the religion as a whole?

When links and information about child marriages are posted showing the reasons are complex and less to do with any one religion then with other factors - do you bother to even read it?  I doubt it...your mind is made up.  But where the solutions to be found there?  Even the human rights agencies have enough brains to know the issue is not simply one of religion.

So do you really care about the little girl here?  Where are your posts?


----------



## Ernie S.

Coyote said:


> Ernie S. said:
> 
> 
> 
> She just wants to appear reasonable to all sides and falls miserably short. Remind you of any other Fake Republicans here?
> 
> Take a stand and I will respect you, whether I agree or not. Waffle on issues and excuse abhorrent behavior, and you lose respect.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Specifically Ernie, where am I *excusing *it?  Feel free to provide a link.
Click to expand...


Didn't say you did, only how one could lose my respect.

You aren't specifically excusing this, but you do seem to be trying to minimize it by saying "every one does it."

If you want to open a discussion about child brides and arranged marriages in India, by all means, start a thread.


----------



## Ernie S.

Coyote said:


> Ernie S. said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> What is disgusting is you only care about child abuse when it's Muslims.
> 
> Not one peep from you when it occurs elsewhere - not even condemnation.  Let me count the posts....
> 
> oh wait...there aren't any.
> 
> That is perverted.
> 
> India has a huge problem with child marriages, forced marriages and violence upon women.  Apparently that is ok with you all.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Post the stories. Sunshine me, and every other person who is condemning this little girl's death will join you in condemnation.
> The subject of the OP was an 8 year old little Muslim girl, not child marriages in India, or Catholic priests or long since abandoned Judeo-Christian customs.
> Have something relevant? Start a thread.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> So tell me Ernie,  the Catholic religion has a huge problem with pedophilic priests (no, not just a handful) - and worse, cover up.  There have been numerous threads on that over time.
> 
> How do you feel about that?  Is it OK because it's not Muslim?  Or, more to the point - *how come you aren't accusing Catholicism of being a pervert religion?*  Because it's not Muslim and it's "ok" to hate Muslims?  That's what comes out of this shit.  Look at the posts.  How many of your and Sunshines posts are concerned about the victim here and how many are, instead, intent on villifying the religion as a whole?
> 
> *When links and information about child marriages are posted showing the reasons are complex and less to do with any one religion then with other factors - do you bother to even read it?*  I doubt it...your mind is made up.  But where the solutions to be found there?  Even the human rights agencies have enough brains to know the issue is not simply one of religion.
> 
> So do you really care about the little girl here?  Where are your posts?
Click to expand...


1. Because the subject of the thread is a little girl in Yemen.

2. I don't recall seeing a thread on child brides in India. Start one and I will participate.


----------



## Coyote

Ernie S. said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ernie S. said:
> 
> 
> 
> She just wants to appear reasonable to all sides and falls miserably short. Remind you of any other Fake Republicans here?
> 
> Take a stand and I will respect you, whether I agree or not. Waffle on issues and excuse abhorrent behavior, and you lose respect.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Specifically Ernie, where am I *excusing *it?  Feel free to provide a link.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Didn't say you did, only how one could lose my respect.
> 
> You aren't specifically excusing this, but you do seem to be trying to minimize it by saying "every one does it."
Click to expand...


I absolutely am not minimizing it nor am I saying "everyone does it" - just because I refuse to jump on the "hate Islam" bandwagon doesn't mean I have EVER excused it.  



> If you want to open a discussion about child brides and arranged marriages in India, by all means, start a thread.



And if you want to open a discussion on child abuse in Islam by all means start a thread.  This one is about a Yemeni child and the sources make no mention of religion.

According to one source: Child bride, 8, dies of internal bleeding on wedding night: Residents, activist | World | News | Toronto Sun



> Many poor families in Yemen marry off young daughters to save on the costs of bringing up a child and earn extra money from the dowry given to the girl.
> 
> A UN report released in January revealed the extent of the country&#8217;s poverty, saying that 10.5 million of Yemen&#8217;s 24 million people lacked sufficient food supplies, and 13 million had no access to safe water and basic sanitation.


----------



## Coyote

Ernie S. said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ernie S. said:
> 
> 
> 
> Post the stories. Sunshine me, and every other person who is condemning this little girl's death will join you in condemnation.
> The subject of the OP was an 8 year old little Muslim girl, not child marriages in India, or Catholic priests or long since abandoned Judeo-Christian customs.
> Have something relevant? Start a thread.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So tell me Ernie,  the Catholic religion has a huge problem with pedophilic priests (no, not just a handful) - and worse, cover up.  There have been numerous threads on that over time.
> 
> How do you feel about that?  Is it OK because it's not Muslim?  Or, more to the point - *how come you aren't accusing Catholicism of being a pervert religion?*  Because it's not Muslim and it's "ok" to hate Muslims?  That's what comes out of this shit.  Look at the posts.  How many of your and Sunshines posts are concerned about the victim here and how many are, instead, intent on villifying the religion as a whole?
> 
> *When links and information about child marriages are posted showing the reasons are complex and less to do with any one religion then with other factors - do you bother to even read it?*  I doubt it...your mind is made up.  But where the solutions to be found there?  Even the human rights agencies have enough brains to know the issue is not simply one of religion.
> 
> So do you really care about the little girl here?  Where are your posts?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 1. *Because the subject of the thread is a little girl in Yemen.*
> 
> 2. I don't recall seeing a thread on child brides in India. Start one and I will participate.
Click to expand...


I'm fine with that then.  However, nothing in the OP says anything about Islam.

What does what you highlighted have to do with child brides in India?  It's from this thread and includes child brides all over including Yemen.


----------



## Ernie S.

Coyote said:


> Ernie S. said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> So tell me Ernie,  the Catholic religion has a huge problem with pedophilic priests (no, not just a handful) - and worse, cover up.  There have been numerous threads on that over time.
> 
> How do you feel about that?  Is it OK because it's not Muslim?  Or, more to the point - *how come you aren't accusing Catholicism of being a pervert religion?*  Because it's not Muslim and it's "ok" to hate Muslims?  That's what comes out of this shit.  Look at the posts.  How many of your and Sunshines posts are concerned about the victim here and how many are, instead, intent on villifying the religion as a whole?
> 
> *When links and information about child marriages are posted showing the reasons are complex and less to do with any one religion then with other factors - do you bother to even read it?*  I doubt it...your mind is made up.  But where the solutions to be found there?  Even the human rights agencies have enough brains to know the issue is not simply one of religion.
> 
> So do you really care about the little girl here?  Where are your posts?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 1. *Because the subject of the thread is a little girl in Yemen.*
> 
> 2. I don't recall seeing a thread on child brides in India. Start one and I will participate.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I'm fine with that then.  However, nothing in the OP says anything about Islam.
> 
> What does what you highlighted have to do with child brides in India?  It's from this thread and includes child brides all over including Yemen.
Click to expand...


We are all aware that Yemen is a nearly exclusively Muslim country. It's very safe to assume the little girl and the disgusting creature who killed her, were both Mulims.

You brought up India. I only mentioned it as one place that seems to condone child marriages that you appear familiar with.


----------



## Coyote

Ernie S. said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ernie S. said:
> 
> 
> 
> 1. *Because the subject of the thread is a little girl in Yemen.*
> 
> 2. I don't recall seeing a thread on child brides in India. Start one and I will participate.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm fine with that then.  However, nothing in the OP says anything about Islam.
> 
> What does what you highlighted have to do with child brides in India?  It's from this thread and includes child brides all over including Yemen.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> We are all aware that Yemen is a nearly exclusively Muslim country. It's very safe to assume the little girl and the disgusting creature who killed her, were both Mulims.
> 
> You brought up India. I only mentioned it as one place that seems to condone child marriages that you appear familiar with.
Click to expand...


The OP mentioned nothing about religion - not even as a cause though I agree it's likely Muslim.  However, the cultures in general - regardless of religion, engage in this in those areas.

In fact, the articles point out specifically that Yemeni families often sell their daughters into marriage at a young age in order to gain money from dowries and to not have to support them any more.  It points out that nearly half the population lacks enough food or drinking water.  When you are looking at child marriages in that region - that is a huge factor to consider and if you want to put a stop to it, you need to change the base conditions driving people to it, as well as addressing "cultural norms".  Yemen is a mess.


----------



## Ernie S.

So discuss that. You did quite well, but attempting to diminish, or should I say doing what appears to at least 2 people in the discussion, as an attempt to diminish the disgusting custom by including a couple dozen Catholic priests, long dead Christians and Jews and people on another continent, comes off, at least to me, as an attempt to excuse this girl's death and Islamic customs.

Damn! If you need a translation, I'll see what I can do.


----------



## Coyote

Ernie S. said:


> So discuss that. You did quite well, but attempting to diminish, or should I say doing what appears to at least 2 people in the discussion, as an attempt to diminish the disgusting custom by including a couple dozen Catholic priests, long dead Christians and Jews and people on another continent, comes off, at least to me, *as an attempt to excuse this girl's death and Islamic customs.*
> 
> Damn! If you need a translation, I'll see what I can do.



Ernie, this thread from about post 5, turned into an anti-Islamic rant that had less to do with the issue of child marriage then it did about hating Muslims (in general) and little actual concern with the real issue.  I won't go along with that - but I will discuss the evil of child marriages.

And you are right, I shouldn't have pulled in all that other crap.  It was stupid shit.


----------



## Hossfly

Osomir said:


> Hossfly said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Osomir said:
> 
> 
> 
> It's childish how much you guys need us to be secret Muslims and reeks of insecurity.
> 
> 
> 
> Methinks the lady doth protest too much.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Stop acting childish and insecure and i'll stop calling you on it.
Click to expand...

Out, damned spot! Out, I say!


----------



## Roudy

Coyote said:


> Ernie S. said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> What is disgusting is you only care about child abuse when it's Muslims.
> 
> Not one peep from you when it occurs elsewhere - not even condemnation.  Let me count the posts....
> 
> oh wait...there aren't any.
> 
> That is perverted.
> 
> India has a huge problem with child marriages, forced marriages and violence upon women.  Apparently that is ok with you all.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Post the stories. Sunshine me, and every other person who is condemning this little girl's death will join you in condemnation.
> The subject of the OP was an 8 year old little Muslim girl, not child marriages in India, or Catholic priests or long since abandoned Judeo-Christian customs.
> Have something relevant? Start a thread.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> So tell me Ernie,  the Catholic religion has a huge problem with pedophilic priests (no, not just a handful) - and worse, cover up.  There have been numerous threads on that over time.
> 
> How do you feel about that?  Is it OK because it's not Muslim?  Or, more to the point - how come you aren't accusing Catholicism of being a pervert religion?  Because it's not Muslim and it's "ok" to hate Muslims?  That's what comes out of this shit.  Look at the posts.  How many of your and Sunshines posts are concerned about the victim here and how many are, instead, intent on villifying the religion as a whole?
> 
> When links and information about child marriages are posted showing the reasons are complex and less to do with any one religion then with other factors - do you bother to even read it?  I doubt it...your mind is made up.  But where the solutions to be found there?  Even the human rights agencies have enough brains to know the issue is not simply one of religion.
> 
> So do you really care about the little girl here?  Where are your posts?
Click to expand...

But Catholic priests aren't saying that committing pedophilia is acceptable and citing religion or the Bible to justify their behavior?  

Interesting how you fail to put these two together. Or you don't want to.  

It's the same with Islamic terrorism. People like you will go around telling everybody it's not because Islamists are just following the "pure" teachings of Islam.  

But it is.


----------



## Roudy

Coyote said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Muslims themselves do not deny that Aisha was 9 when she married Mohammad. The evidence is overwhelming.  And that's the exact reason they cite for marrying 9 year olds in Muslim countries.  I find it hilarious that some who call themselves objective show their utter bias by making it look like its "controversial".
> 
> *It's these kinds of moments that show a persons true agenda*.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, it truly does.  It brings the bigots crawling out of the walls.
Click to expand...

Anybody who doesn't agree with your "everybody is doing what Muslims are doing" appeasement ideology of justification is a "bigot".  Right.


----------



## Coyote

Roudy said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Muslims themselves do not deny that Aisha was 9 when she married Mohammad. The evidence is overwhelming.  And that's the exact reason they cite for marrying 9 year olds in Muslim countries.  I find it hilarious that some who call themselves objective show their utter bias by making it look like its "controversial".
> 
> *It's these kinds of moments that show a persons true agenda*.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, it truly does.  It brings the bigots crawling out of the walls.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Anybody who doesn't agree with your "everybody is doing what Muslims are doing" appeasement ideology of justification is a "bigot".  Right.
Click to expand...


I'll refer to your own words Roudy, when someone disagrees with you:  _It's these kinds of moments that show a persons true agenda_

What's your true agenda?

Note:  I have never claimed to be objective - those are your words, not mine.


----------



## Coyote

Roudy said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ernie S. said:
> 
> 
> 
> Post the stories. Sunshine me, and every other person who is condemning this little girl's death will join you in condemnation.
> The subject of the OP was an 8 year old little Muslim girl, not child marriages in India, or Catholic priests or long since abandoned Judeo-Christian customs.
> Have something relevant? Start a thread.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So tell me Ernie,  the Catholic religion has a huge problem with pedophilic priests (no, not just a handful) - and worse, cover up.  There have been numerous threads on that over time.
> 
> How do you feel about that?  Is it OK because it's not Muslim?  Or, more to the point - how come you aren't accusing Catholicism of being a pervert religion?  Because it's not Muslim and it's "ok" to hate Muslims?  That's what comes out of this shit.  Look at the posts.  How many of your and Sunshines posts are concerned about the victim here and how many are, instead, intent on villifying the religion as a whole?
> 
> When links and information about child marriages are posted showing the reasons are complex and less to do with any one religion then with other factors - do you bother to even read it?  I doubt it...your mind is made up.  But where the solutions to be found there?  Even the human rights agencies have enough brains to know the issue is not simply one of religion.
> 
> So do you really care about the little girl here?  Where are your posts?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> But Catholic priests aren't saying that committing pedophilia is acceptable and citing religion or the Bible to justify their behavior?
> 
> Interesting how you fail to put these two together. Or you don't want to.
> 
> It's the same with Islamic terrorism. People like you will go around telling everybody it's not because Islamists are just following the "pure" teachings of Islam.
> 
> But it is.
Click to expand...


It's already been well established that you don't know much about Islam.

I don't pretend to be an expert.


----------



## Coyote

Hossfly said:


> Osomir said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hossfly said:
> 
> 
> 
> Methinks the lady doth protest too much.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Stop acting childish and insecure and i'll stop calling you on it.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Out, damned spot! Out, I say!
Click to expand...


Try a little Oxyclean


----------



## Hossfly

Osomir said:


> Hossfly said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Osomir said:
> 
> 
> 
> It's childish how much you guys need us to be secret Muslims and reeks of insecurity.
> 
> 
> 
> Methinks the lady doth protest too much.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Stop acting childish and insecure and i'll stop calling you on it.
Click to expand...

It certainly looks like the lady is still protesting too much.  Meanwhile, why not tell us how come  you said "but as non-Sunni Muslims there is no reason for US to do so."  I think many of the viewers will take the US to include you.  Regardless, this is only a forum and not real life so you can be whatever you want to be.  Since this thread seems to be going on and on, how about something different being discussed -- like honor killings.  It's a shame that this custom is even being brought to America, such as when a father thinks his daughters are becoming too westernized.


----------



## Osomir

Hossfly said:


> It certainly looks like the lady is still protesting too much.



You have a pretty poor command of Shakespeare if you can't be more original than that. 



> Meanwhile, why not tell us how come  you said "but as non-Sunni Muslims there is no reason for US to do so."



Because none of us are Sunni Muslims. So it is fairly accurate. The "sunni" qualifier comes into effect because the Hadiths in question are Sunni Hadths. Shia's don't utilize them for the formation of jurisprudential sets so simply saying "since none of us are Muslim..." wouldn't have made any contextual sense or would have implied that all Muslims follow those hadiths which they don't. 

But all of that would have been obvious to you guys if ANY of you actually knew anything about Islamic jurisprudential sets. But none of you do. Hell Roudy thought that they were part of the Quran and that Muhammad wrote them. 



> I think many of the viewers will take the US to include you.



It does include me; just like it includes you and everyone else talking in this thread. I'm not sure why you guys so desperately need me to be a secret Muslim. Perhaps it is the only way in which you can reconcile the fact that I actually know more than you guys about Islamic theology and jurisprudential sets and you feel insecure about that and thus need to rationalize it somehow. Perfectly natural, but silly for any level headed individual, and highly inaccurate.


----------



## Hossfly

Osomir said:


> Hossfly said:
> 
> 
> 
> It certainly looks like the lady is still protesting too much.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You have a pretty poor command of Shakespeare if you can't be more original than that.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Meanwhile, why not tell us how come  you said "but as non-Sunni Muslims there is no reason for US to do so."
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Because none of us are Sunni Muslims. So it is fairly accurate. The "sunni" qualifier comes into effect because the Hadiths in question are Sunni Hadths. Shia's don't utilize them for the formation of jurisprudential sets so simply saying "since none of us are Muslim..." wouldn't have made any contextual sense or would have implied that all Muslims follow those hadiths which they don't.
> 
> But all of that would have been obvious to you guys if ANY of you actually knew anything about Islamic jurisprudential sets. But none of you do. Hell Roudy thought that they were part of the Quran and that Muhammad wrote them.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think many of the viewers will take the US to include you.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> It does include me; just like it includes you and everyone else talking in this thread. I'm not sure why you guys so desperately need me to be a secret Muslim. Perhaps it is the only way in which you can reconcile the fact that I actually know more than you guys about Islamic theology and jurisprudential sets and you feel insecure about that and thus need to rationalize it somehow. Perfectly natural, but silly for any level headed individual, and highly inaccurate.
Click to expand...

Polonius said, "Brevity is the art of wit."  Does that satisfy you, Miss Osamir?  I think it was a slip of the tongue (so to speak) when you said US (meaning you were not Sunni), but that's OK.  Like I said, this is only a forum and everyone can claim to be whatever they wish to, and at the end of the day nobody really cares.  You really are making a big to do about this.  As far as you saying we are insecure, you know what they say when people make ASSumptions.


----------



## Osomir

Hossfly said:


> you know what they say when people make ASSumptions.



I do. And for the record you are making an ass of yourself.


----------



## Roudy

Osomir said:


> Hossfly said:
> 
> 
> 
> you know what they say when people make ASSumptions.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I do. And for the record you are making an ass of yourself.
Click to expand...

I would say that goes more for those who are falsely promoting the idea that Mohammad's marriage to an 8 year old has nothing to do with the prevalence of child marriages in Muslim countries. 

Good luck with that one.  No, really.


----------



## Osomir

Roudy said:


> Mohammad's marriage to an 8 year old



Your source?


----------



## Roudy

Coyote said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> So tell me Ernie,  the Catholic religion has a huge problem with pedophilic priests (no, not just a handful) - and worse, cover up.  There have been numerous threads on that over time.
> 
> How do you feel about that?  Is it OK because it's not Muslim?  Or, more to the point - how come you aren't accusing Catholicism of being a pervert religion?  Because it's not Muslim and it's "ok" to hate Muslims?  That's what comes out of this shit.  Look at the posts.  How many of your and Sunshines posts are concerned about the victim here and how many are, instead, intent on villifying the religion as a whole?
> 
> When links and information about child marriages are posted showing the reasons are complex and less to do with any one religion then with other factors - do you bother to even read it?  I doubt it...your mind is made up.  But where the solutions to be found there?  Even the human rights agencies have enough brains to know the issue is not simply one of religion.
> 
> So do you really care about the little girl here?  Where are your posts?
> 
> 
> 
> But Catholic priests aren't saying that committing pedophilia is acceptable and citing religion or the Bible to justify their behavior?
> 
> Interesting how you fail to put these two together. Or you don't want to.
> 
> It's the same with Islamic terrorism. People like you will go around telling everybody it's not because Islamists are just following the "pure" teachings of Islam.
> 
> But it is.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> It's already been well established that you don't know much about Islam.
> 
> I don't pretend to be an expert.
Click to expand...

Really, is that so?  And YOU do?  

Stop making up stuff about Muslim culture 6000 miles away.

My experience comes from life experience. Yours is what you find on the Internet to support your twisted biased outlook, even Muslims would disagree with in this one.  

K?


----------



## Roudy

Osomir said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Mohammad's marriage to an 8 year old
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Your source?
Click to expand...

Ha ha ha. My source?  You want my source?  I provided it four times in this thread. 

Miss "thesis on women's rights". Gawd. What a joke. 

A person writes a thesis on women's rights, and totally GLOSSES OVER the suffering of women in Muslim countries, BECAUSE OF ISLAM AND SHARIAH LAW.  

Phew.


----------



## Hossfly

Osomir said:


> Hossfly said:
> 
> 
> 
> you know what they say when people make ASSumptions.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I do. And for the record you are making an ass of yourself.
Click to expand...

Let me reiterate -- you certainly are making a big to-do over this, Miss Osomir.  No one here feels insecure because of you.  You are only a poster on a forum which in reality is no big deal.  You have no importance in the real world to any of us.  If you were perhaps some well-known journalist or scholar, maybe we would actually pay more attention to you, but alas to us you are really just another person posting anonymously.  Now since this thread has been beaten to death about child marriages, how about we add on a little spice to this thread and talk about honor killings.  This should be right up  your alley since this should have been part of your studies also.


----------



## KissMy

Iran's leader Ayatollah Khomeini fatwa on "thighing" & paedophilia. "Thighing is a means for an adult male to enjoy a young girl who is still in the age of weaning; meaning to place his penis between her thighs, and to kiss her."

"A man can marry a girl younger than nine years of age, even if the girl is still a baby being breastfed. A man, however is prohibited from having intercourse with a girl younger than nine, while other sexual acts such as foreplay, rubbing, and kissing are allowed. A man having intercourse with a girl younger than nine years of age has not committed a crime, but only an infraction, if the girl is not permanently damaged. If the girl, however, is permanently damaged, the man must provide for her all her life. But this girl will not count as one of the man's four permanent wives. He also is not permitted to marry the girl's sister."


----------



## waltky

Minimum marriage age to be raised in Yemen...

*Yemen child death sparks debate over marriage age*
_Mon, Sep 16, 2013 - TOO YOUNG: Before Yemen unified, the legal age of marriage was set as 15 in the north and 16 in the south, but the united nation does not specify an age limit_


> Yemeni Human Rights Minister Huriya Mashhoor said on Saturday that she will press for the minimum age of marriage to be raised to 18, after the reported death of a young girl on her wedding night.  Eight-year-old Rawan was said to have died last week from internal bleeding after sexual intercourse, following her marriage to a man in his 40s in the northeastern province of Hajja.  However, provincial governor Ali al-Qaissi denied the reports that Rawan had died.  Mashmoor said she wanted to revive a bill that has lain dormant since 2009, which would have set the minimum age for marriage at 17, and raise it the age to 18.
> 
> Activists say the bill was shelved when ultraconservative lawmakers from the Islamist al-Islah party blocked it.  We are asking to fix the legal age for marriage at 18, as Yemen is a signatory to the international convention on childrens rights, Mashhoor said.  The minister spoke a day after the government formed a committee to investigate reports about the girls death. However, al-Qaissi told official news agency SABA on Saturday that Rawan was still alive.  The young girl Rawan Abdo Hattan is still alive and normally lives with her family who, in turn, deny the whole thing, he said.  He added that the young girl is currently in a social protection center after undergoing physical and psychological tests in a public hospital in the area.
> 
> Before the denial from the governor, Mashhoor had said: We do not have enough evidence at the moment about the incident.  I am worried that there could be an attempt to silence the matter, especially as it took place in an isolated rural area in Hajja Province where there have been similar cases before, she said.  If the case was confirmed and covered up, then the crime would be more serious, Mashhoor said.  Mashhoor has been involved in a campaign against the marriage of child brides in Yemen, ravaged by years of strife and widespread poverty. There is no clear definition in the country of what constitutes a child, making it difficult to battle the practice.
> 
> That 14 percent of girls in Yemen are married before the age of 15, and 52 percent before 18, citing Yemeni and 2006 data from the UN, Human Rights Watch said on Wednesday last week.  In certain rural areas, girls as young as eight are sometimes given in marriage to men much older than they. The problem caused worldwide outrage in 2010, with the case of Nujod Mohamed Ali.  She had been married at the age of 10 to a man 20 years her senior in 2008, and was granted a divorce after he sexually abused and beat her.  Ali became involved in campaigns against forced underage marriages, leading to calls to ban women from marrying before the age of 18.  Before the unification of Yemen in 1990, the legal age of marriage was set at 15 in the north and 16 in the south. However, legislation in the united country does not specify any age limit.
> 
> Yemen child death sparks debate over marriage age - Taipei Times


----------



## Roudy

Coyote said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, it truly does.  It brings the bigots crawling out of the walls.
> 
> 
> 
> Anybody who doesn't agree with your "everybody is doing what Muslims are doing" appeasement ideology of justification is a "bigot".  Right.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I'll refer to your own words Roudy, when someone disagrees with you:  _It's these kinds of moments that show a persons true agenda_
> 
> What's your true agenda?
> 
> Note:  I have never claimed to be objective - those are your words, not mine.
Click to expand...

We're way past not being objective and into spreading false propogdanda territory.


----------



## S.J.

Watching muslims struggle to excuse pedophilia in Islamic culture reaffirms my belief that it is truly an evil religion with evil followers.


----------



## Coyote

Roudy said:


> Osomir said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hossfly said:
> 
> 
> 
> you know what they say when people make ASSumptions.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I do. And for the record you are making an ass of yourself.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I would say that goes more for those who are falsely promoting the idea that Mohammad's marriage to an 8 year old has nothing to do with the prevalence of child marriages in Muslim countries.
> 
> Good luck with that one.  No, really.
Click to expand...


Like I said Roudy, that's disputable: Dr. David Liepert: Rejecting the Myth of Sanctioned Child Marriage in Islam


----------



## Coyote

Roudy said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Anybody who doesn't agree with your "everybody is doing what Muslims are doing" appeasement ideology of justification is a "bigot".  Right.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'll refer to your own words Roudy, when someone disagrees with you:  _It's these kinds of moments that show a persons true agenda_
> 
> What's your true agenda?
> 
> Note:  I have never claimed to be objective - those are your words, not mine.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> We're way past not being objective and *into spreading false propogdanda territory*.
Click to expand...


I agree, but you've been in at so long now I expect little else.  You're agenda is very clear.


----------



## Coyote

Roudy said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> 
> But Catholic priests aren't saying that committing pedophilia is acceptable and citing religion or the Bible to justify their behavior?
> 
> Interesting how you fail to put these two together. Or you don't want to.
> 
> It's the same with Islamic terrorism. People like you will go around telling everybody it's not because Islamists are just following the "pure" teachings of Islam.
> 
> But it is.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's already been well established that you don't know much about Islam.
> 
> I don't pretend to be an expert.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Really, is that so?  And YOU do?
> 
> Stop making up stuff about Muslim culture 6000 miles away.
> 
> My experience comes from life experience. Yours is what you find on the Internet to support your twisted biased outlook, even Muslims would disagree with in this one.
> 
> K?
Click to expand...


Your experience from life has been shown to have gaping educational holes. 

Anti-semites claim to have experiences and certainly believe what they are saying.  That doesn't mean they are right.


----------



## Esmeralda

Osomir said:


> S.J. said:
> 
> 
> 
> Gotta be a muslim.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In Yemen? Most likely. Child marriage happens in many non-Islamic majority countries as well though (it is a big problem in parts of Southern Africa, and the rest of Sub-Saharan Africa for that matter). It is also a large problem in India.
> 
> Child marriage is one of those nasty side effects of weak governmental institutions coupled with extreme poverty. It's horrible stuff.
Click to expand...


Right. It is not just a Muslim thing. It is something that still takes place around the world in what are still primitive cultures.  The Muslim haters want to say and think it's just about being Muslim, but that isn't true.  This type of thing does not happen among modern Muslims, it doesn't happen in the more progressive, modernized countries. It is not at all a pervasive thing in Islam or in the Middle East.  Yemen is a backward, and as you say, tribalized country.


----------



## Roudy

Coyote said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'll refer to your own words Roudy, when someone disagrees with you:  _It's these kinds of moments that show a persons true agenda_
> 
> What's your true agenda?
> 
> Note:  I have never claimed to be objective - those are your words, not mine.
> 
> 
> 
> We're way past not being objective and *into spreading false propogdanda territory*.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I agree, but you've been in at so long now I expect little else.  You're agenda is very clear.
Click to expand...

I have no agenda other than the truth.


----------



## Roudy

Esmeralda said:


> Osomir said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> S.J. said:
> 
> 
> 
> Gotta be a muslim.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In Yemen? Most likely. Child marriage happens in many non-Islamic majority countries as well though (it is a big problem in parts of Southern Africa, and the rest of Sub-Saharan Africa for that matter). It is also a large problem in India.
> 
> Child marriage is one of those nasty side effects of weak governmental institutions coupled with extreme poverty. It's horrible stuff.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Right. It is not just a Muslim thing. It is something that still takes place around the world in what are still primitive cultures.  The Muslim haters want to say and think it's just about being Muslim, but that isn't true.  This type of thing does not happen among modern Muslims, it doesn't happen in the more progressive, modernized countries. It is not at all a pervasive thing in Islam or in the Middle East.  Yemen is a backward, and as you say, tribalized country.
Click to expand...

Islam has a lot to do with why its prevalent among Muslims. They are trying to emulate Mohammad.


----------



## Coyote

Roudy said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> 
> We're way past not being objective and *into spreading false propogdanda territory*.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I agree, but you've been in at so long now I expect little else.  You're agenda is very clear.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I have no agenda other than the truth.
Click to expand...


Like the blind man with the elephant, we each see only part of the truth


----------



## Uncensored2008

Coyote said:


> Mohammed was not a "child rapist pedophile".  He married 3 adult wives and Aisha's age is controversial.  Child marriages, forced marriages and plural marriages were the common were common in that era but of course some choose to ignore that because it suits their agendas to make out that Islam is a pedophilic relgion.
> 
> 
> And the fact that both you and Bloodrock seem to support that while being "OK" with a 12 year old girl being forced into pregnancy (sarcasm alert) is typical of the religious hypocrisy that abounds when it comes to Islam.



A few things. Generally, the myth of Mary puts her at 14, not 12 - not sure where you cooked that one up at. Mary was Jewish and not able to marry prior to her Bat Mitzvah at 13.

Muhammad was a warlord. People were given him as tribute. Slaves, concubines, etc. Aisha was a political marriage, a means of linking Abu Bakr to the warlord and legitimize his rule as Caliph. Aisha was given to Muhammad at the age of 6, but the consummation was postponed until the 9th birthday of Aisha. The Shi'ites deny much of this because it adds legitimacy to Sunni claims of authority. It was vital that Aisha be taken before she had her first menses, as a sign of virginal purity. She absolutely was a child - that was the whole point.


----------



## Coyote

Uncensored2008 said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> Mohammed was not a "child rapist pedophile".  He married 3 adult wives and Aisha's age is controversial.  Child marriages, forced marriages and plural marriages were the common were common in that era but of course some choose to ignore that because it suits their agendas to make out that Islam is a pedophilic relgion.
> 
> 
> And the fact that both you and Bloodrock seem to support that while being "OK" with a 12 year old girl being forced into pregnancy (sarcasm alert) is typical of the religious hypocrisy that abounds when it comes to Islam.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A few things. Generally, the myth of Mary puts her at 14, not 12 - not sure where you cooked that one up at. Mary was Jewish and not able to marry prior to her Bat Mitzvah at 13.
Click to expand...



From: Truth Or Tradition - Does the Bible say how old / at what age Mary became pregnant with Jesus?


> One very remarkable thing about Mary is that she would almost certainly have been *12-14 years ol*d when the angel Gabriel appeared to her. We know this because the common custom at that time was for girls to marry early, at that age. The Bible never gives Marys age when she got pregnant or gave birth to Jesus, and that is because when something happened that was common in the culture, nothing was said about it.



She could easily have been 12, that was the custom of the time (marriage between 12-14) and of course, they all had to be virgins then.
WOMEN AND THE LAW IN ANCIENT ISRAEL



> Muhammad was a warlord. People were given him as tribute. Slaves, concubines, etc. Aisha was a political marriage, a means of linking Abu Bakr to the warlord and legitimize his rule as Caliph. Aisha was given to Muhammad at the age of 6, but the consummation was postponed until the 9th birthday of Aisha. The Shi'ites deny much of this because it adds legitimacy to Sunni claims of authority. It was vital that Aisha be taken before she had her first menses, as a sign of virginal purity. She absolutely was a child - that was the whole point.



Not according to this: Dr. David Liepert: Rejecting the Myth of Sanctioned Child Marriage in Islam

It's a very disputable point that she was that young, though almost certainly she could have been 12-14, as that was the custom and possibly 16.


----------



## Hollie

Esmeralda said:


> Osomir said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> S.J. said:
> 
> 
> 
> Gotta be a muslim.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In Yemen? Most likely. Child marriage happens in many non-Islamic majority countries as well though (it is a big problem in parts of Southern Africa, and the rest of Sub-Saharan Africa for that matter). It is also a large problem in India.
> 
> Child marriage is one of those nasty side effects of weak governmental institutions coupled with extreme poverty. It's horrible stuff.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Right. It is not just a Muslim thing. It is something that still takes place around the world in what are still primitive cultures.  The Muslim haters want to say and think it's just about being Muslim, but that isn't true.  This type of thing does not happen among modern Muslims, it doesn't happen in the more progressive, modernized countries. It is not at all a pervasive thing in Islam or in the Middle East.  Yemen is a backward, and as you say, tribalized country.
Click to expand...


"Modern Muslims"?  Would that also include the modern Muslims in the KSA who behead people convicted of witchcraft and sorcery?

BBC News - Saudi man executed for 'witchcraft and sorcery'



Btw, I don't believe there is yet a minimum age for marriage in connection with young girls in the KSA. 

Will Saudi Arabia end child marriage? ? Global Public Square - CNN.com Blogs


----------



## Coyote

Hollie said:


> Esmeralda said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Osomir said:
> 
> 
> 
> In Yemen? Most likely. Child marriage happens in many non-Islamic majority countries as well though (it is a big problem in parts of Southern Africa, and the rest of Sub-Saharan Africa for that matter). It is also a large problem in India.
> 
> Child marriage is one of those nasty side effects of weak governmental institutions coupled with extreme poverty. It's horrible stuff.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Right. It is not just a Muslim thing. It is something that still takes place around the world in what are still primitive cultures.  The Muslim haters want to say and think it's just about being Muslim, but that isn't true.  This type of thing does not happen among modern Muslims, it doesn't happen in the more progressive, modernized countries. It is not at all a pervasive thing in Islam or in the Middle East.  Yemen is a backward, and as you say, tribalized country.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> "Modern Muslims"?  Would that also include the modern Muslims in the KSA who behead people convicted of witchcraft and sorcery?
> 
> BBC News - Saudi man executed for 'witchcraft and sorcery'
> 
> 
> 
> Btw, I don't believe there is yet a minimum age for marriage in connection with young girls in the KSA.
> 
> Will Saudi Arabia end child marriage? ? Global Public Square - CNN.com Blogs
Click to expand...


I've never heard Saudi's referred to as "modern muslims" - they are one of the most fundamentalist.


----------



## Uncensored2008

Coyote said:


> From: Truth Or Tradition - Does the Bible say how old / at what age Mary became pregnant with Jesus?




Yeah, while it ranges from 12 to 14, it's still pretty ignorant, given that Jewish law prohibits marriage prior to age 13. 

Was it your impression that Mary was not Jewish?



> She could easily have been 12, that was the custom of the time (marriage between 12-14) and of course, they all had to be virgins then.



No, she could not have. Prior to her Bat Mitzvah, it was not legal for her to marry.

You are desperate, but your claim is ignorant.




> Not according to this: Dr. David Liepert: Rejecting the Myth of Sanctioned Child Marriage in Islam
> 
> It's a very disputable point that she was that young, though almost certainly she could have been 12-14, as that was the custom and possibly 16.



Again, ignorant and self-serving nonsense. It was vital that she be consummated prior to her first menses. 

{ American historian Denise Spellberg states that "these specific references to the bride's age reinforce Aisha's pre-menarcheal status and, implicitly, her virginity."[11] Early Muslims regarded Aisha's youth as demonstrating her virginity and therefore her suitability as a bride of Muhammad. This issue of her virginity was of great importance to those who supported Aisha's position in the debate of the succession to Muhammad. These supporters considered that as Muhammad's only virgin wife, Aisha was divinely intended for him, and therefore the most credible regarding the debate.[27]}

USC-MSA Compendium of Muslim Texts


----------



## Osomir

Roudy said:


> I have no agenda other than the truth.



If your agenda was simply the truth then you would be bothered by how little you know on the subject. Seriously, You've admitted to having never read a single book on Islamic history. You have no idea how Islamic jurisprudence is formed, and you have no idea what is in the Quran. You have admitted to all of those things.

I don't see how you can even tell yourself you are interested in truth when you seem to be ok with how limited your knowledge is.


----------



## Osomir

Hollie said:


> "Modern Muslims"?  Would that also include the modern Muslims in the KSA who behead people convicted of witchcraft and sorcery?



People are arrested and tried for witchcraft (and sometimes killed) in Christian and other majority religion countries as well. Two were just arrested in Zimbabwe the other day actually.


----------



## Osomir

S.J. said:


> Watching muslims struggle to excuse pedophilia in Islamic culture reaffirms my belief that it is truly an evil religion with evil followers.



No one in this thread is excusing or defending pedophilia. I'm not sure why you guys feel the need to be so dishonest when it comes to the stances of others. Once again, it rather reeks of insecurity on your part.


----------



## Esmeralda

OP, I don't know who you think you are fooling. Preaching to the choir is one thing; the rest of us are not buying your routine.   You don't care about these poor girls, you don't care about the problem of child brides. This thread has one purpose and one only: Muslim bashing. 

If you were truly unbiased, if you really cared about the problem of child brides, you would inform yourself about it and not just be pointing the finger at how bad Islamic culture is.  

Child Marriage Facts and Figures | ICRW



> CHILD MARRIAGE AROUND THE WORLD
> &#61607;	If present trends continue, 142 million girls will marry over the next decade. Thats 38,000 girls married every day for the next 10 years.
> POVERTY AND CHILD MARRIAGE
> &#61607;	Girls living in poor households are almost twice as likely to marry before 18 than girls in higher income households.
> &#61607;	More than half of the girls in Bangladesh, Mali, Mozambique and Niger are married before age 18. In these same countries, more than 75 percent of people live on less than $2 a day.
> EDUCATION AND CHILD MARRIAGE
> &#61607;	Girls with higher levels of schooling are less likely to marry as children. In Mozambique, some 60 percent of girls with no education are married by 18, compared to 10 percent of girls with secondary schooling and less than one percent of girls with higher education.
> &#61607;	Educating adolescent girls has been a critical factor in increasing the age of marriage in a number of developing countries, including Indonesia, Sri Lanka, Taiwan and Thailand.
> HEALTH AND CHILD MARRIAGE
> &#61607;	Girls younger than 15 are five times more likely to die in childbirth than women in their 20s. Pregnancy is the leading cause of death worldwide for women ages 15 to 19.
> &#61607;	Child brides face a higher risk of contracting HIV because they often marry an older man with more sexual experience. Girls ages 15  19 are 2 to 6 times more likely to contract HIV than boys of the same age in sub-Saharan Africa.
> VIOLENCE AND CHILD MARRIAGE
> &#61607;	Girls who marry before 18 are more likely to experience domestic violence than their peers who marry later. A study conducted by ICRW in two states in India found that girls who were married before 18 were twice as likely to report being beaten, slapped or threatened by their husbands than girls who married later.
> &#61607;	Child brides often show signs symptomatic of sexual abuse and post-traumatic stress such as feelings of hopelessness, helplessness and severe depression.
> RELIGION AND CHILD MARRIAGE
> &#61607;	*No one religious affiliation was associated with child marriage, according to a 2007 ICRW study. Rather, a variety of religions are associated with child marriage in countries throughout the world.*



OP and others: go to this site, read all of the information.  Become educated. Stop being bigots. If you truly care about these girls, then focus on their problem and take your minds off you hatred for Islam. This is an issue that spans many cultures and religions.


----------



## Roudy

Coyote said:


> Uncensored2008 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> Mohammed was not a "child rapist pedophile".  He married 3 adult wives and Aisha's age is controversial.  Child marriages, forced marriages and plural marriages were the common were common in that era but of course some choose to ignore that because it suits their agendas to make out that Islam is a pedophilic relgion.
> 
> 
> And the fact that both you and Bloodrock seem to support that while being "OK" with a 12 year old girl being forced into pregnancy (sarcasm alert) is typical of the religious hypocrisy that abounds when it comes to Islam.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A few things. Generally, the myth of Mary puts her at 14, not 12 - not sure where you cooked that one up at. Mary was Jewish and not able to marry prior to her Bat Mitzvah at 13.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> From: Truth Or Tradition - Does the Bible say how old / at what age Mary became pregnant with Jesus?
> 
> 
> 
> One very remarkable thing about Mary is that she would almost certainly have been *12-14 years ol*d when the angel Gabriel appeared to her. We know this because the common custom at that time was for girls to marry early, at that age. The Bible never gives Marys age when she got pregnant or gave birth to Jesus, and that is because when something happened that was common in the culture, nothing was said about it.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> She could easily have been 12, that was the custom of the time (marriage between 12-14) and of course, they all had to be virgins then.
> WOMEN AND THE LAW IN ANCIENT ISRAEL
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Muhammad was a warlord. People were given him as tribute. Slaves, concubines, etc. Aisha was a political marriage, a means of linking Abu Bakr to the warlord and legitimize his rule as Caliph. Aisha was given to Muhammad at the age of 6, but the consummation was postponed until the 9th birthday of Aisha. The Shi'ites deny much of this because it adds legitimacy to Sunni claims of authority. It was vital that Aisha be taken before she had her first menses, as a sign of virginal purity. She absolutely was a child - that was the whole point.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Not according to this: Dr. David Liepert: Rejecting the Myth of Sanctioned Child Marriage in Islam
> 
> It's a very disputable point that she was that young, though almost certainly she could have been 12-14, as that was the custom and possibly 16.
Click to expand...

Lets hear it from this knowledgable Muslim cleric who has studied the Koran and is an expert on Islam:
"Mohammad is the example we follow"  at 1:20

[ame=http://youtube.com/watch?v=BGOnGqEpQCc]Islam in Action: Shaykh Explains Child Marriage - YouTube[/ame]


----------



## Coyote

Uncensored2008 said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> From: Truth Or Tradition - Does the Bible say how old / at what age Mary became pregnant with Jesus?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, while it ranges from 12 to 14, it's still pretty ignorant, given that Jewish law prohibits marriage prior to age 13.
> 
> Was it your impression that Mary was not Jewish?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> She could easily have been 12, that was the custom of the time (marriage between 12-14) and of course, they all had to be virgins then.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No, she could not have. Prior to her Bat Mitzvah, it was not legal for her to marry.
> 
> You are desperate, but your claim is ignorant.
Click to expand...

Bat Mitzvah: According to Jewish law, when Jewish boys become 13 years old, they become accountable for their actions and become a bar mitzvah. A girl becomes a bat mizvah *at the age of 12*. 



> Not according to this: Dr. David Liepert: Rejecting the Myth of Sanctioned Child Marriage in Islam
> 
> It's a very disputable point that she was that young, though almost certainly she could have been 12-14, as that was the custom and possibly 16.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Again, ignorant and self-serving nonsense. It was vital that she be consummated prior to her first menses.
Click to expand...





> { American historian Denise Spellberg states that "these specific references to the bride's age reinforce Aisha's pre-menarcheal status and, implicitly, her virginity."[11] Early Muslims regarded Aisha's youth as demonstrating her virginity and therefore her suitability as a bride of Muhammad. This issue of her virginity was of great importance to those who supported Aisha's position in the debate of the succession to Muhammad. These supporters considered that as Muhammad's only virgin wife, Aisha was divinely intended for him, and therefore the most credible regarding the debate.[27]}
> 
> USC-MSA Compendium of Muslim Texts



From your source:


> Aishah became the Prophet's wife in Makkah when she was most likely in the tenth year of her life *but her wedding did not take place until the second year after the Hijrah when she was about fourteen or fifteen years old*. Before and after her wedding she maintained a natural jollity and innocence and did not seem at all overawed by the thought of being wedded to him who was the Messenger of God whom all his companions, including her own mother and father, treated with such love and reverence as they gave to no one else.


----------



## Hossfly

Osomir said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> 
> I have no agenda other than the truth.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If your agenda was simply the truth then you would be bothered by how little you know on the subject. Seriously, You've admitted to having never read a single book on Islamic history. You have no idea how Islamic jurisprudence is formed, and you have no idea what is in the Quran. You have admitted to all of those things.
> 
> I don't see how you can even tell yourself you are interested in truth when you seem to be ok with how limited your knowledge is.
Click to expand...

Being a clairvoyant, how many times have you won the lottery? You have no knowledge of what Roudy knows but I'll wager his knowledge dwarfs yours.


----------



## Osomir

Hossfly said:


> Being a clairvoyant, how many times have you won the lottery? You have no knowledge of what Roudy knows but I'll wager his knowledge dwarfs yours.



I don't have to be clairvoyant, and perhaps you should read my post again. He's already admitted those things, and demonstrated a lack of knowledge in the basics of Islamic jurisprudence in this very thread when he:

1.) Didn't know that the Sahih Muslim and Sahih Bukhari were only Sunni hadiths, and not Shia (despite the fact that he claims to be an expert on Iranian culture).

2.) Thought that Muhammad had written the Muslim and Bukhari collections even though they weren't collected until over 200 years after Muhammad's death.

3.) Thought the Muslim and Bukhari collections were part of the Quran (indicating not only a lack of understanding of what Hadith collections are, but a lack of understanding as to the basic contents of the Quran itself).


----------



## Uncensored2008

Coyote said:


> I've never heard Saudi's referred to as "modern muslims" - they are one of the most fundamentalist.



Who would you call "modern" in the Muslim faith? Iran?


----------



## Roudy

Osomir said:


> S.J. said:
> 
> 
> 
> Watching muslims struggle to excuse pedophilia in Islamic culture reaffirms my belief that it is truly an evil religion with evil followers.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No one in this thread is excusing or defending pedophilia. I'm not sure why you guys feel the need to be so dishonest when it comes to the stances of others. Once again, it rather reeks of insecurity on your part.
Click to expand...

Yeah, but you're making it look like Islam and Mohammed marrying a nine year old has nothing to do with the issue, and that's just not the case. 

[ame=http://youtube.com/watch?v=CamkTY71DnA]Child brides in Islam - Wafa Sultan ???? ????? - YouTube[/ame]


----------



## Coyote

Uncensored2008 said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> I've never heard Saudi's referred to as "modern muslims" - they are one of the most fundamentalist.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Who would you call "modern" in the Muslim faith? Iran?
Click to expand...


You have very odd ideas of what constitutes "modern"


----------



## Hossfly

That's so true! The only things I know are what I read on the Internet. Especially USMB.


----------



## Osomir

It is also worth noting that none of you guys answered in the affirmative either when I asked if any of you have ever worked within the field. I have. Both in fields regarding Islam (counter terrorism, and economic development) and in fields regarding women's rights (which includes social issues such as child brides). Also as far as I know I am the only one with formal training in both Islamic jurisprudence, Islamic history, and international gender issues in this thread.


----------



## Osomir

Roudy said:


> Yeah, but you're making it look like Islam and Mohammed marrying a nine year old has nothing to do with the issue, and that's just not the case.



I never said that it had nothing to do with it, that was your own assumption as to my stance based on your illogical desire to dislike me and characterize me as some sort of secret Muslim or "Muslim apologist".

I said that religion wasn't a very good statistical causal variable for child marriage across regions and it isn't.


----------



## Hossfly

Osomir said:


> It is also worth noting that none of you guys answered in the affirmative either when I asked if any of you have ever worked within the field. I have. Both in fields regarding Islam (counter terrorism, and economic development) and in fields regarding women's rights (which includes social issues such as child brides). Also as far as I know I am the only one with formal training in both Islamic jurisprudence, Islamic history, and international gender issues in this thread.


Well, pin a rose on you! The only formal training and expertise I possess is in the Shock and Awe department. I bow to your valuable and superior knowledge.


----------



## Roudy

Osomir said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, but you're making it look like Islam and Mohammed marrying a nine year old has nothing to do with the issue, and that's just not the case.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I never said that it had nothing to do with it, that was your own assumption as to my stance based on your illogical desire to dislike me and characterize me as some sort of secret Muslim or "Muslim apologist".
> 
> I said that religion wasn't a very good statistical causal variable for child marriage across regions and it isn't.
Click to expand...

Why don't you just admit that most Muslim societies are very religious and conservative, and follow what Islam says, therefore it is Islam that has the greatest influence on why child marriage is sanctioned and acceptable. 

Like I said, I'll go with Muslims themselves say about child marriage. Grand mufti at 2:50. 

[ame="http://youtube.com/watch?v=FFhENFnudWY"]http://youtube.com/watch?v=FFhENFnudWY[/ame]


----------



## Osomir

Hossfly said:


> Well, pin a rose on you! The only formal training and expertise I possess is in the Shock and Awe department. I bow to your valuable and superior knowledge.



Well, do you have any experience or formal training in the field?


----------



## Osomir

Roudy said:


> Why don't you just admit that most Muslim societies are very religious and conservative



I've already shown you that most Islamic societies have a legal age for marriage set well above 9.



> and follow what Islam says, therefore it is Islam that has the greatest influence on why child marriage is sanctioned and acceptable.



It doesn't have the greatest influence though, and completely fails in accounting for most incidents of child marriage and especially for child marriage prevalence throughout the world. Over focusing on one weak variable simply because you have a need to justify your hatred of Islam to yourself is not only selfish but it does nothing to help those who suffer from such marriages. In fact, your stance serves to only hurt them further by reinforcing the idea that Islam HAS to accept such things, when that isn't true at all.


----------



## Hollie

Roudy said:


> Osomir said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> S.J. said:
> 
> 
> 
> Watching muslims struggle to excuse pedophilia in Islamic culture reaffirms my belief that it is truly an evil religion with evil followers.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No one in this thread is excusing or defending pedophilia. I'm not sure why you guys feel the need to be so dishonest when it comes to the stances of others. Once again, it rather reeks of insecurity on your part.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Yeah, but you're making it look like Islam and Mohammed marrying a nine year old has nothing to do with the issue, and that's just not the case.
> 
> [ame=http://youtube.com/watch?v=CamkTY71DnA]Child brides in Islam - Wafa Sultan ???? ????? - YouTube[/ame]
Click to expand...


Ah. Now we're getting to a basic, ideological element that allows the practice of child marriages to continue in Moslem nations.

In Islamic theology, muhammud (swish), is the model for humanity, the perfect example for all pious moslems to follow. If the most perfect example for moslems married a child, there certainty can't be anything wrong with following in the way of the "prophet".


----------



## Coyote

Hossfly said:


> Osomir said:
> 
> 
> 
> It is also worth noting that none of you guys answered in the affirmative either when I asked if any of you have ever worked within the field. I have. Both in fields regarding Islam (counter terrorism, and economic development) and in fields regarding women's rights (which includes social issues such as child brides). Also as far as I know I am the only one with formal training in both Islamic jurisprudence, Islamic history, and international gender issues in this thread.
> 
> 
> 
> Well, pin a rose on you! The only formal training and expertise I possess is in the Shock and Awe department. I bow to your valuable and superior knowledge.
Click to expand...


You bow to Roudy's claim of superior knowledge.  Why?


----------



## Hossfly

Osomir said:


> Hossfly said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well, pin a rose on you! The only formal training and expertise I possess is in the Shock and Awe department. I bow to your valuable and superior knowledge.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well, do you have any experience or formal training in the field?
Click to expand...

Well, if three years of experience in the field as a Combat Infantryman counts, I had about eight years of working in tobacco and cotton fields to add to my training. I'm not over proud of my education like some people I know.


----------



## Osomir

Hossfly said:


> Well, if three years of experience in the field as a Combat Infantryman counts, I had about eight years of working in tobacco and cotton fields to add to my training. I'm not over proud of my education like some people I know.



So in other words, no.


----------



## Hossfly

Coyote said:


> Hossfly said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Osomir said:
> 
> 
> 
> It is also worth noting that none of you guys answered in the affirmative either when I asked if any of you have ever worked within the field. I have. Both in fields regarding Islam (counter terrorism, and economic development) and in fields regarding women's rights (which includes social issues such as child brides). Also as far as I know I am the only one with formal training in both Islamic jurisprudence, Islamic history, and international gender issues in this thread.
> 
> 
> 
> Well, pin a rose on you! The only formal training and expertise I possess is in the Shock and Awe department. I bow to your valuable and superior knowledge.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You bow to Roudy's claim of superior knowledge.  Why?
Click to expand...

Roudy was born and raised in that part of the world, lived the life and knows firsthand about religious persecution. Capisce?


----------



## Hossfly

Osomir said:


> Hossfly said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well, if three years of experience in the field as a Combat Infantryman counts, I had about eight years of working in tobacco and cotton fields to add to my training. I'm not over proud of my education like some people I know.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So in other words, no.
Click to expand...

You're a genius!


----------



## Hossfly

Hossfly said:


> Osomir said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hossfly said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well, if three years of experience in the field as a Combat Infantryman counts, I had about eight years of working in tobacco and cotton fields to add to my training. I'm not over proud of my education like some people I know.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So in other words, no.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You're a genius!
Click to expand...

And to top it off, Saigon's equal!! Amazing!


----------



## Coyote

Hossfly said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hossfly said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well, pin a rose on you! The only formal training and expertise I possess is in the Shock and Awe department. I bow to your valuable and superior knowledge.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You bow to Roudy's claim of superior knowledge.  Why?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Roudy was born and raised in that part of the world, lived the life and knows firsthand about religious persecution. Capisce?
Click to expand...


And has ample time to absorb and develop his own prejudices and hates and generalize them, and they are evident.

We had another poster here who was Palestinian and knew first hand what life was like under Israeli occupation.  I'm sure you will agree his knowledge must trump that of all others who have not lived that? Capisce?


----------



## Hossfly

Osomir said:


> It is also worth noting that none of you guys answered in the affirmative either when I asked if any of you have ever worked within the field. I have. Both in fields regarding Islam (counter terrorism, and economic development) and in fields regarding women's rights (which includes social issues such as child brides). Also as far as I know I am the only one with formal training in both Islamic jurisprudence, Islamic history, and international gender issues in this thread.


Amazing how Miss Osimir carries on about this.  Many of the posters can say they are world class scholars on a number of topics and who would know the difference.  By the way, I am a famous heart transplant surgeon *and* a Texas Hold 'Em champion, but I don't want to brag about it on a forum.   Now enough about child brides, Miss Osimir, since you probably also studied the problem of honor killings as it mainly affects females.  Can you give us the rundown of honor killings because of the perceived stain on the family's reputation?


----------



## Osomir

Hossfly said:


> Roudy was born and raised in that part of the world, lived the life and knows firsthand about religious persecution. Capisce?



And can't tell the fundamental difference between hadith and the Quran. Something any Muslim child could do. He may have been born there, but he doesn't know much about it.


----------



## Coyote

Hossfly said:


> Osomir said:
> 
> 
> 
> It is also worth noting that none of you guys answered in the affirmative either when I asked if any of you have ever worked within the field. I have. Both in fields regarding Islam (counter terrorism, and economic development) and in fields regarding women's rights (which includes social issues such as child brides). Also as far as I know I am the only one with formal training in both Islamic jurisprudence, Islamic history, and international gender issues in this thread.
> 
> 
> 
> *Amazing how Miss Osimir carries on about this.*  Many of the posters can say they are world class scholars on a number of topics and who would know the difference.  By the way, I am a famous heart transplant surgeon *and* a Texas Hold 'Em champion, but I don't want to brag about it on a forum.   Now enough about child brides, Miss Osimir, since you probably also studied the problem of honor killings as it mainly affects females.  Can you give us the rundown of honor killings because of the perceived stain on the family's reputation?
Click to expand...


Hoss...calm down....take a deep breath - it's ok...  It's just ONE post


----------



## Osomir

Hossfly said:


> Amazing how Miss Osimir carries on about this.  Many of the posters can say they are world class scholars on a number of topics and who would know the difference.  By the way, I am a famous heart transplant surgeon *and* a Texas Hold 'Em champion, but I don't want to brag about it on a forum.   Now enough about child brides, Miss Osimir, since you probably also studied the problem of honor killings as it mainly affects females.  Can you give us the rundown of honor killings because of the perceived stain on the family's reputation?



So does that mean that you don't believe that Roudy is from Iran?

On the other note, I have studied and worked with populations where honor killings are a problem as well yes. Make a thread about it and I'll happily talk on the subject.


----------



## Hossfly

Osomir said:


> Hossfly said:
> 
> 
> 
> Roudy was born and raised in that part of the world, lived the life and knows firsthand about religious persecution. Capisce?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And can't tell the fundamental difference between hadith and the Quran. Something any Muslim child could do. He may have been born there, but he doesn't know much about it.
Click to expand...

Hmmm, must be something to do with him being a Jew, huh?


----------



## Osomir

Hossfly said:


> And to top it off, Saigon's equal!! Amazing!



I'd be perfectly willing to furnish evidence for my claims. Whether it be details or what not. what kind of evidence would you like? I stated my qualifications when I first came to this forum long ago. None of the stuff that I have posted about myself in this thread is new.


----------



## Hossfly

Coyote said:


> Hossfly said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Osomir said:
> 
> 
> 
> It is also worth noting that none of you guys answered in the affirmative either when I asked if any of you have ever worked within the field. I have. Both in fields regarding Islam (counter terrorism, and economic development) and in fields regarding women's rights (which includes social issues such as child brides). Also as far as I know I am the only one with formal training in both Islamic jurisprudence, Islamic history, and international gender issues in this thread.
> 
> 
> 
> *Amazing how Miss Osimir carries on about this.*  Many of the posters can say they are world class scholars on a number of topics and who would know the difference.  By the way, I am a famous heart transplant surgeon *and* a Texas Hold 'Em champion, but I don't want to brag about it on a forum.   Now enough about child brides, Miss Osimir, since you probably also studied the problem of honor killings as it mainly affects females.  Can you give us the rundown of honor killings because of the perceived stain on the family's reputation?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Hoss...calm down....take a deep breath - it's ok...  It's just ONE post
Click to expand...

Im O.K. now. Just took my Prozac.


----------



## Osomir

Hossfly said:


> Hmmm, must be something to do with him being a Jew, huh?



Doesn't matter if he is Jewish, he said that he was an expert on Iranian culture but didn't even know that the two most popular hadith collections in the world aren't Shia? That's something pretty basic that Iranians should know and that anyone with even the smallest education in the area of Islamic jurisprudence would know. 

Plus you continuously ignore the fact that he already admitted to never having read a single book on Islamic history. He didn't even know that Muhammad's first wife died before the Hijra, or what was in the Quran.

I'm not sure why you would support his "expertise" when he has practically admitted that he has none.


----------



## Hossfly

Osomir said:


> Hossfly said:
> 
> 
> 
> And to top it off, Saigon's equal!! Amazing!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'd be perfectly willing to furnish evidence for my claims. Whether it be details or what not. what kind of evidence would you like? I stated my qualifications when I first came to this forum long ago. None of the stuff that I have posted about myself in this thread is new.
Click to expand...

Well, gag me with a spoon! We had enough of that biography shit when Saigoon came aboard. No need to chew your cabbage twice.


----------



## Osomir

Hossfly said:


> Osomir said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hossfly said:
> 
> 
> 
> And to top it off, Saigon's equal!! Amazing!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'd be perfectly willing to furnish evidence for my claims. Whether it be details or what not. what kind of evidence would you like? I stated my qualifications when I first came to this forum long ago. None of the stuff that I have posted about myself in this thread is new.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Well, gag me with a spoon! We had enough of that biography shit when Saigoon came aboard. No need to chew your cabbage twice.
Click to expand...


What's wrong? afraid you'll be proven wrong? You rant and rave about anyone being able to pretend anything and when I offer to supply evidence you run away from it?


----------



## Hossfly

Osomir said:


> Hossfly said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hmmm, must be something to do with him being a Jew, huh?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Doesn't matter if he is Jewish, he said that he was an expert on Iranian culture but didn't even know that the two most popular hadith collections in the world aren't Shia? That's something pretty basic that Iranians should know and that anyone with even the smallest education in the area of Islamic jurisprudence would know.
> 
> Plus you continuously ignore the fact that he already admitted to never having read a single book on Islamic history. He didn't even know that Muhammad's first wife died before the Hijra, or what was in the Quran.
> 
> I'm not sure why you would support his "expertise" when he has practically admitted that he has none.
Click to expand...

Hell, I didn't know all that stuff either, so sue me. Us redneck crackers don't put too much emphasis on that higher lernin' jabberwocky.


----------



## Osomir

Hossfly said:


> Hell, I didn't know all that stuff either, so sue me. Us redneck crackers don't put too much emphasis on that higher lernin' jabberwocky.



I never said that there was anything wrong with not knowing this stuff. If it isn't relevant to your field or personal interests why would you? There is plenty that all of us don't know, and I'm not suggesting that you're stupid or a "redneck" for not knowing. The point is though that you honestly DON'T know much about this particular subject. Once again, nothing wrong with that, but you should also be honest enough with yourselves when discussing such issues to realize that you don't know much about it and thus might not have the best foundation on which to stand.

I don't make a habit of taking hard stances on subjects about which I know little myself. Those are just my standards for myself though.


----------



## Hossfly

Osomir said:


> Hossfly said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Osomir said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'd be perfectly willing to furnish evidence for my claims. Whether it be details or what not. what kind of evidence would you like? I stated my qualifications when I first came to this forum long ago. None of the stuff that I have posted about myself in this thread is new.
> 
> 
> 
> Well, gag me with a spoon! We had enough of that biography shit when Saigoon came aboard. No need to chew your cabbage twice.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> What's wrong? afraid you'll be proven wrong? You rant and rave about anyone being able to pretend anything and when I offer to supply evidence you run away from it?
Click to expand...

O.K. Doc. I give. Hit me with your credentials. I'm all ears. You got the floor. (This is gonna be verrrrry interesting".


----------



## Osomir

Hossfly said:


> O.K. Doc. I give. Hit me with your credentials. I'm all ears. You got the floor. (This is gonna be verrrrry interesting".



Well, what sort of evidence would you like? / what would you consider to be sufficient?


----------



## Hossfly

Osomir said:


> Hossfly said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hell, I didn't know all that stuff either, so sue me. Us redneck crackers don't put too much emphasis on that higher lernin' jabberwocky.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I never said that there was anything wrong with not knowing this stuff. If it isn't relevant to your field or personal interests why would you? There is plenty that all of us don't know, and I'm not suggesting that you're stupid or a "redneck" for not knowing. The point is though that you honestly DON'T know much about this particular subject. Once again, nothing wrong with that, but you should also be honest enough with yourselves when discussing such issues to realize that you don't know much about it and thus might not have the best foundation on which to stand.
> 
> I don't make a habit of taking hard stances on subjecst about which I know little myself. Those are just my standards for myself though.
Click to expand...

Actually, I'm a lot like Tinmore. I pin everything on a fairytale. Just throw a blivet against the wall and hope it sticks.


----------



## Hossfly

Osomir said:


> Hossfly said:
> 
> 
> 
> O.K. Doc. I give. Hit me with your credentials. I'm all ears. You got the floor. (This is gonna be verrrrry interesting".
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well, what sort of evidence would you like? / what would you consider to be sufficient?
Click to expand...

Just your résumé is enough to see if you'll be hired. Don't be bashful.


----------



## Coyote

Hossfly said:


> Osomir said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hossfly said:
> 
> 
> 
> O.K. Doc. I give. Hit me with your credentials. I'm all ears. You got the floor. (This is gonna be verrrrry interesting".
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well, what sort of evidence would you like? / what would you consider to be sufficient?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Just your résumé is enough to see if you'll be hired. Don't be bashful.
Click to expand...


Do you offer good benefits?


----------



## Hossfly

Coyote said:


> Hossfly said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Osomir said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well, what sort of evidence would you like? / what would you consider to be sufficient?
> 
> 
> 
> Just your résumé is enough to see if you'll be hired. Don't be bashful.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Do you offer good benefits?
Click to expand...

I only pay the minimum and the clairvoyant sensed that and skedaddled.


----------



## Osomir

Hossfly said:


> Just your résumé is enough to see if you'll be hired. Don't be bashful.



My resume has too much personal information on it.


----------



## Roudy

Osomir said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Why don't you just admit that most Muslim societies are very religious and conservative
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I've already shown you that most Islamic societies have a legal age for marriage set well above 9.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> and follow what Islam says, therefore it is Islam that has the greatest influence on why child marriage is sanctioned and acceptable.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> It doesn't have the greatest influence though, and completely fails in accounting for most incidents of child marriage and especially for child marriage prevalence throughout the world. Over focusing on one weak variable simply because you have a need to justify your hatred of Islam to yourself is not only selfish but it does nothing to help those who suffer from such marriages. In fact, your stance serves to only hurt them further by reinforcing the idea that Islam HAS to accept such things, when that isn't true at all.
Click to expand...

How so?  Muslims live are highly religious, conservative societies and follow their religion as a way of life and above all laws. That includes the ability to marry a 9 year old because their prophet did so. I understand that in some countries there are laws agains this, but I have shown you that in many cases, those laws are  ignored in favor of the religious laws, which again, allows men to marry 9 year olds. 

As I said you can put as much lipstick and spin on this pig as you want, it's going to be a pig.  Islam is the main cause of child brides in Muslim societies.


----------



## Hossfly

Osomir said:


> Hossfly said:
> 
> 
> 
> Just your résumé is enough to see if you'll be hired. Don't be bashful.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> My resume has too much personal information on it.
Click to expand...

Won't accept minimum wage, huh?


----------



## Osomir

Roudy said:


> How so?  Muslims live are highly religious, conservative societies and follow their religion as a way of life and above all laws.



Except Islamic majority countries do have law sets. Now, not all countries have far reach with the central government, but that is hardly something limited to developing Islamic countries and would be covered under my "weak government institutions" variable.


----------



## Osomir

Hossfly said:


> Won't accept minimum wage, huh?



With my student loan payments? God no. I have my class curriculum from the Foreign Service Institute that I could post though if you'd like to see it. It isn't something that you can find online and is only given to those who take the courses, but it is unclassified so I can share it.


----------



## Coyote

Hossfly said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hossfly said:
> 
> 
> 
> Just your résumé is enough to see if you'll be hired. Don't be bashful.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Do you offer good benefits?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I only pay the minimum and the clairvoyant sensed that and skedaddled.
Click to expand...


No bennies?


Not even chocolate?

Seriously, what are you, some sort of fly-by-night scrumplekake?


----------



## Coyote

Hossfly said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hossfly said:
> 
> 
> 
> *Amazing how Miss Osimir carries on about this.*  Many of the posters can say they are world class scholars on a number of topics and who would know the difference.  By the way, I am a famous heart transplant surgeon *and* a Texas Hold 'Em champion, but I don't want to brag about it on a forum.   Now enough about child brides, Miss Osimir, since you probably also studied the problem of honor killings as it mainly affects females.  Can you give us the rundown of honor killings because of the perceived stain on the family's reputation?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hoss...calm down....take a deep breath - it's ok...  It's just ONE post
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Im O.K. now. Just took my Prozac.
Click to expand...


woah dude....that wasn't Prozac


----------



## Roudy

Hossfly said:


> Osomir said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hossfly said:
> 
> 
> 
> Just your résumé is enough to see if you'll be hired. Don't be bashful.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> My resume has too much personal information on it.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Won't accept minimum wage, huh?
Click to expand...

You better watch it. "Misnomer" wrote a thesis on women's rights and completely glossed over the persecution and plight of women on Muslim countries, while getting high marks for it. By the local mosque of course.


----------



## Osomir

Roudy said:


> You better watch it. "Misnomer" wrote a thesis on women's rights and completely glossed over the persecution and plight of women on Muslim countries, while getting high marks for it. By the local mosque of course.



The thesis was a quantitative analysis on how much increases in women's rights impact economic variables across countries (as divided by sector of growth reliance). I didn't touch on religion no, but then again religion didn't really have anything to do with it. As a side note, some of the worst countries for women's rights aren't Islamic countries (some are) but many aren't. The middle East for example, tends to score higher than most of Sub-Saharan Africa.


----------



## Hossfly

Osomir said:


> Hossfly said:
> 
> 
> 
> Won't accept minimum wage, huh?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> With my student loan payments? God no. I have my class curriculum from the Foreign Service Institute that I could post though if you'd like to see it. It isn't something that you can find online and is only given to those who take the courses, but it is unclassified so I can share it.
Click to expand...

Thass O.K. I'll take your word on that. Go, and sin no mo.


----------



## Osomir

Hossfly said:


> Thass O.K. I'll take your word on that. Go, and sin no mo.



Such a curriculum would demonstrate both formal professional training in Africa and Islamism as well as provide supporting evidence for my work with the State Department. Not just anyone can take classes from the FSI.


----------



## Coyote

Roudy said:


> Hossfly said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Osomir said:
> 
> 
> 
> My resume has too much personal information on it.
> 
> 
> 
> Won't accept minimum wage, huh?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You better watch it. "Misnomer" wrote a thesis on women's rights and completely glossed over the persecution and plight of women on Muslim countries, while getting high marks for it. By the local mosque of course.
Click to expand...


Roudy, Roudy, Roudy....it's back to school for you on Reading Comprehension 101.  It was not the persecution and plight of women in Muslim countries but Parchment Fish and Battered Cod Pieces in Home Ec 101 and that was way back in High.


----------



## Coyote

Osomir said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> 
> You better watch it. "Misnomer" wrote a thesis on women's rights and completely glossed over the persecution and plight of women on Muslim countries, while getting high marks for it. By the local mosque of course.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The thesis was a quantitative analysis on how much increases in women's rights impact economic variables across countries (as divided by sector of growth reliance). I didn't touch on religion no, but then again religion didn't really have anything to do with it. As a side note, some of the worst countries for women's rights aren't Islamic countries (some are) but many aren't. The middle East for example, tends to score higher than most of Sub-Saharan Africa.
Click to expand...


Sudan, Congo, Chad and Afghanistan came up as the 4 worst for women's rights and of the ten worst was Guatamala, Pakistan, India, Iraq, Mali.  Chad was the worst.  And those countries are  mixture of religions.


----------



## Hossfly

Osomir said:


> Hossfly said:
> 
> 
> 
> Thass O.K. I'll take your word on that. Go, and sin no mo.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Such a curriculum would demonstrate both formal professional training in Africa and Islamism as well as provide supporting evidence for my work with the State Department. Not just anyone can take classes from the FSI.
Click to expand...

I just showed your posts to a retired CIA guy, and he is laughing.  However, carry on, Miss Osomir, while I get ready for my next heart transplant surgery.  And, remember, not everyone is chosen to take heart transplant surgery as a specialty.


----------



## Osomir

Hossfly said:


> I just showed your posts to a retired CIA guy, and he is laughing.  However, carry on, Miss Osomir, while I get ready for my next heart transplant surgery.  And, remember, not everyone is chosen to take heart transplant surgery as a specialty.



Nifty, but that doesn't change anything that I said.


----------



## Hossfly

Osomir said:


> Hossfly said:
> 
> 
> 
> I just showed your posts to a retired CIA guy, and he is laughing.  However, carry on, Miss Osomir, while I get ready for my next heart transplant surgery.  And, remember, not everyone is chosen to take heart transplant surgery as a specialty.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Nifty, but that doesn't change anything that I said.
Click to expand...

BTW, next time you're up at State, tell JFK 'ol Hoss said Hey. I knew him in Viet Nam but he's out of my league now.


----------



## Osomir

Coyote said:


> Sudan, Congo, Chad and Afghanistan came up as the 4 worst for women's rights and of the ten worst was Guatamala, Pakistan, India, Iraq, Mali.  Chad was the worst.  And those countries are  mixture of religions.



It depends on what factors you want to look at and emphasize when making your list. I worked with the Economist Intelligence Unit's Women Economic Opportunity Index and one thing that was decided to do was the emphasize every variable with equal weight and then make the data open source so that others could adjust the weights as they like. The countries will shift depending on what you consider to be more important.

If you want the country with the highest birth rate for the lowest economic quintile of population for example you get Niger.

If you want the rape capitals of the world you'll get the Congo, South Africa, and perhaps India.

If you want lack of security Afghanistan, the Congo, Sudan, Pakistan then become major players.

If you want lack of land ownership rights and little access to financial credit then much of Sub-Saharan Africa from Niger to Malawi becomes highlighted. 

Middle Eastern countries tend to do a lot better in the areas of women's education and health opportunities (in part, because they aren't as poor), and, depending on the country, market and job access.


----------



## Osomir

Hossfly said:


> BTW, next time you're up at State, tell JFK 'ol Hoss said Hey. I knew him in Viet Nam but he's out of my league now.



Not sure how that is supposed to be a comeback, but hey go you!


----------



## Coyote

Osomir said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> Sudan, Congo, Chad and Afghanistan came up as the 4 worst for women's rights and of the ten worst was Guatamala, Pakistan, India, Iraq, Mali.  Chad was the worst.  And those countries are  mixture of religions.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It depends on what factors you want to look at and emphasize when making your list. I worked with the Economist Intelligence Unit's Women Economic Opportunity Index and one thing that was decided to do was the emphasize every variable with equal weight and then make the data open source so that others could adjust the weights as they like. The countries will shift depending on what you consider to be more important.
> 
> If you want the country with the highest birth rate for the lowest economic quintile of population for example you get Niger.
> 
> If you want the rape capitals of the world you'll get the Congo, South Africa, and perhaps India.
> 
> If you want lack of security Afghanistan, the Congo, Sudan, Pakistan then become major players.
> 
> If you want lack of land ownership rights and little access to financial credit then much of Sub-Saharan Africa from Niger to Malawi becomes highlighted.
> 
> Middle Eastern countries tend to do a lot better in the areas of women's education and health opportunities (in part, because they aren't as poor), and, depending on the country, market and job access.
Click to expand...


I found it off this site: 10 Worst Countries for Women in The Developing Word which seems to look at a variety of factors - violence, security, legal/property rights, education, marriage ages.

That's interesting, how it changes based on what you adjust for.  A lot of those countries are also in conflict or with weak central government which would make it hard to effect much change.


----------



## Osomir

Coyote said:


> That's interesting, how it changes based on what you adjust for.  A lot of those countries are also in conflict or with weak central government which would make it hard to effect much change.



Indeed, which is why I made such a big deal out of weak governmental institutions. Roudy and Hoss seem to be of the impression that Islamic countries are the only countries with customary law that operates outside of formal law but it is pretty common across countries regardless of their dominant religion. An example: Women in rural Malawi aren't allowed to own land under customary law even though such ownership is guaranteed under central Malawian law. Nor are they allowed to plow fields (they have to pay men to do it) and Malawi is far from an Islamic country (it used to be ruled as a Puritan state).

It is a pretty common occurrence all over Sub-Saharan Africa where countries experience weaker governance. Mali, Niger, Chad, Sudan, South Sudan, the DR Congo, the C.A.R, etc all have large swaths of land that rest largely outside of government control and thus customary law, however it is derived tends to rule, and none of it, tends to be fairly equitable with regards to the roles of men and women regardless of the dominant religion.


----------



## Roudy

Osomir said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> 
> You better watch it. "Misnomer" wrote a thesis on women's rights and completely glossed over the persecution and plight of women on Muslim countries, while getting high marks for it. By the local mosque of course.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The thesis was a quantitative analysis on how much increases in women's rights impact economic variables across countries (as divided by sector of growth reliance). I didn't touch on religion no, but then again religion didn't really have anything to do with it. As a side note, some of the worst countries for women's rights aren't Islamic countries (some are) but many aren't. The middle East for example, tends to score higher than most of Sub-Saharan Africa.
Click to expand...


No, religion didn't have much to do with it, sure sure.   No wonder you keep repeating that Mohammad's marriage to a 9 year old doesn't play a major role in the prevalence of child brides in Muslim countries. 

Funny how you keeping having to go to Sub-Saharan Africa (many of which are Muslim countries), to cite societies more abusive and chauvinistic towards women, or on par with, Muslim societies.


----------



## Hossfly

Osomir said:


> Hossfly said:
> 
> 
> 
> BTW, next time you're up at State, tell JFK 'ol Hoss said Hey. I knew him in Viet Nam but he's out of my league now.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Not sure how that is supposed to be a comeback, but hey go you!
Click to expand...

You said you worked at the State Dept.  John Forbes Kerry works there too. When you see him, say 'ol Hoss sez 'Hey'. Simple.


----------



## Roudy

Coyote said:


> Osomir said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> 
> You better watch it. "Misnomer" wrote a thesis on women's rights and completely glossed over the persecution and plight of women on Muslim countries, while getting high marks for it. By the local mosque of course.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The thesis was a quantitative analysis on how much increases in women's rights impact economic variables across countries (as divided by sector of growth reliance). I didn't touch on religion no, but then again religion didn't really have anything to do with it. As a side note, some of the worst countries for women's rights aren't Islamic countries (some are) but many aren't. The middle East for example, tends to score higher than most of Sub-Saharan Africa.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Sudan, Congo, Chad and Afghanistan came up as the 4 worst for women's rights and of the ten worst was Guatamala, Pakistan, India, Iraq, Mali.  Chad was the worst.  And those countries are  mixture of religions.
Click to expand...

As I cited before in my Wikipedia link, the highest rate of child brides is among Muslim societies, which is attributed to Islam and Shariah law.  It's in this thread, just go back and read it. 

Also, most of the countries you listed are entirely Muslim, if not Muslim majority.  Yet you called countries such as Sudan, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Iraq, "mixed religion". 

LOL...talk about misrepresentation.


----------



## Osomir

Roudy said:


> Funny how you keeping having to go to Sub-Saharan Africa (many of which are Muslim countries), to cite societies more abusive and chauvinistic towards women, or on par with, Muslim societies.



How is that funny?  I work primarily in Sub-Saharan Africa so it is the region that I know the best; it is also an obvious region to work in for people working in gender issues. Vital Voices for example does a lot of work there.


----------



## Osomir

Hossfly said:


> You said you worked at the State Dept.  John Forbes Kerry works there too. When you see him, say 'ol Hoss sez 'Hey'. Simple.



The Secretary of State works on the 7th floor primarily (of the Truman building), the workers of individual bureaus report to Assistant Secretaries (A/S) or Principle Deputy Assistant Secretaries (PDAS), or Deputy Assistant Secretaries (DAS). Meeting the actual Secretary of State is fairly rare.


----------



## Roudy

Osomir said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> That's interesting, how it changes based on what you adjust for.  A lot of those countries are also in conflict or with weak central government which would make it hard to effect much change.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Indeed, which is why I made such a big deal out of weak governmental institutions. Roudy and Hoss seem to be of the impression that Islamic countries are the only countries with customary law that operates outside of formal law but it is pretty common across countries regardless of their dominant religion. An example: Women in rural Malawi aren't allowed to own land under customary law even though such ownership is guaranteed under central Malawian law. Nor are they allowed to plow fields (they have to pay men to do it) and Malawi is far from an Islamic country (it used to be ruled as a Puritan state).
> 
> It is a pretty common occurrence all over Sub-Saharan Africa where countries experience weaker governance. Mali, Niger, Chad, Sudan, South Sudan, the DR Congo, the C.A.R, etc all have large swaths of land that rest largely outside of government control and thus customary law, however it is derived tends to rule, and none of it, tends to be fairly equitable with regards to the roles of men and women regardless of the dominant religion.
Click to expand...

Yes, The more backwards, isolated, chaotic, and poor a society the more they will be chauvinistic, persecutive, and male dominated, and have these medieval traditions such as child brides.  That goes without saying. You didn't need to write a paper on this I could have told you that myself.  LOL 

However, when Islam came into the picture, one of its functions was to create a whole new way of life and set of laws for Muslims to live under.  Including the total emulation of Mohammad as "final messenger" and an example of the perfect creation of God for all Muslims to imitate. One of which, was that he married a nine year old.

 The fact that you discredit this as the prevalent cause of persecution of women and therefore prevalence of child brides in Muslim societies means you deserve an F in your paper.  You failed to mention other factors such as religion in Islamic societies, as an over-arching reason for deteriorated women's rights. 

I guess you were just trying to be politically correct and give Islam a pass. 

Like I said, lipstick on a pig.


----------



## Osomir

Roudy said:


> Yes, The more backwards, isolated, chaotic, and poor a society the more they will be chauvinistic, persecutive, and male dominated, and have these medieval traditions such as child brides.  That goes without saying. You didn't need to write a paper on this I could have told you that myself.



Right, so I'm not sure why you would ignore those factors when it came to Muslim majority countries. 



> However, when Islam came into the picture, one of its functions was to create a whole new way of life and set of laws for Muslims to live under.  Including the total emulation of Mohammad as "final messenger" and an example of the perfect creation of God for all Muslims to imitate. One of which, was that he married a nine year old.



There is nothing in any shariah code set that says that Muslims have to marry 9 year olds. Try again.



> The fact that you discredit this as the prevalent cause of persecution of women and therefore prevalence of child brides in Muslim societies means you deserve an F in your paper.



lol says the guy who though that the Bukhari and Muslim hadith collections were part of the Quran. Tell us again about how Muhammad wrote them  

It's actually quite amusing that you can say this with such confidence when you have demonstrated and admitted that you don't know much about Islamic law, or even theology.


----------



## Roudy

Osomir said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Funny how you keeping having to go to Sub-Saharan Africa (many of which are Muslim countries), to cite societies more abusive and chauvinistic towards women, or on par with, Muslim societies.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How is that funny?  I work primarily in Sub-Saharan Africa so it is the region that I know the best; it is also an obvious region to work in for people working in gender issues. Vital Voices for example does a lot of work there.
Click to expand...

It's funny because you have to go to tribal backwards ass societies in Africa, to find abuse of women similar Muslim societies.  

And people wonder where the expression "Muslims want to take the world back to 7th century AD" comes from.


----------



## Osomir

Roudy said:


> It's funny because you have to go to tribal backwards ass societies in Africa, to find abuse of women similar Muslim societies.



lol where do you think most of your examples have come from there sport? You listed places like Guinea, Chad, Niger, etc. Guess what? They're in Africa.


----------



## Coyote

Roudy said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Osomir said:
> 
> 
> 
> The thesis was a quantitative analysis on how much increases in women's rights impact economic variables across countries (as divided by sector of growth reliance). I didn't touch on religion no, but then again religion didn't really have anything to do with it. As a side note, some of the worst countries for women's rights aren't Islamic countries (some are) but many aren't. The middle East for example, tends to score higher than most of Sub-Saharan Africa.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sudan, Congo, Chad and Afghanistan came up as the 4 worst for women's rights and of the ten worst was Guatamala, Pakistan, India, Iraq, Mali.  Chad was the worst.  And those countries are  mixture of religions.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> As I cited before in my Wikipedia link, the highest rate of child brides is among Muslim societies, which is attributed to Islam and Shariah law.  It's in this thread, just go back and read it.
> 
> Also, most of the countries you listed are entirely Muslim, if not Muslim majority.  Yet you called countries such as Sudan, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Iraq, "mixed religion".
> 
> LOL...talk about misrepresentation.
Click to expand...


Yes, let's talk about misrepresentation.  Those countries represent a mixture of religions and represent those judged to be the ten worst in the treatment of women and their rights - just look at the worst 5 (from better to worst which is Chad).

Guatamalia - Christian
Sudan - Muslim
D.R. Congo - Christian
Afghanistan - Muslim
Chad - Muslim and Christian majorities plus some animist

Now I agree more of the countries in those ten have significant Muslim majorities (6 out of ten) but not enough to simply write it off as religion because Muslim countries also figure in some of the better countries and non-Muslim countries figure in list of the worst.

When it comes to child brides - Africa has the worst record.



> Some countries in Africa are amongst those with the highest proportion of early marriage, including Niger, Chad, Mali, Guinea, Central African Republic, Mozambique and Malawi. Sub-Saharan Africa has the second highest rate of early and forced marriage - See more at: Early and forced marriage - facts and figures - Plan UK



CAR is Christian, as is Mozambique and Malawi.  Niger, Chad, Mali, and Guinea are Islamic majority.  I agree that religion influences child marriages - in particular with it's influence on virginity - but focusing on that ignores the larger problem and the more pressing reasons behind child marriages.  Many of those marriages are related to poverty: the parents need the bride price to feed, clothe, educate, and house the rest of the family, and the bride (who typically is not allowed to work and uneducated), goes into the husband's family, and is no longer a drain on family resources.  The cultural foundations for those attitudes exist in all Abrahamic faiths as well as Hinduism so religion makes it easier to justify perpretrating these customs.


----------



## Roudy

Osomir said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, The more backwards, isolated, chaotic, and poor a society the more they will be chauvinistic, persecutive, and male dominated, and have these medieval traditions such as child brides.  That goes without saying. You didn't need to write a paper on this I could have told you that myself.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Right, so I'm not sure why you would ignore those factors when it came to Muslim majority countries.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> However, when Islam came into the picture, one of its functions was to create a whole new way of life and set of laws for Muslims to live under.  Including the total emulation of Mohammad as "final messenger" and an example of the perfect creation of God for all Muslims to imitate. One of which, was that he married a nine year old.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> There is nothing in any shariah code set that says that Muslims have to marry 9 year olds. Try again.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The fact that you discredit this as the prevalent cause of persecution of women and therefore prevalence of child brides in Muslim societies means you deserve an F in your paper.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> lol says the guy who though that the Bukhari and Muslim hadith collections were part of the Quran. Tell us again about how Muhammad wrote them
> 
> It's actually quite amusing that you can say this with such confidence when you have demonstrated and admitted that you don't know much about Islamic law, or even theology.
Click to expand...

Shariah code gives a MAN, the father, of a child to marry her off at whatever age he pleases. 

Neither the mother nor the child have any right or say according to Shariah law.  In fact women have very little rights under Shariah law, when it comes to many things such as marriage, divorce, the courts, money, travel,  etc. they are basically treated as the property of the men. 

But then again, you already knew that, right?  Or did you not mention that in your amazing thesis?  LOL


----------



## Uncensored2008

Osomir said:


> Hossfly said:
> 
> 
> 
> Just your résumé is enough to see if you'll be hired. Don't be bashful.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> My resume has too much personal information on it.
Click to expand...


That's okay, you can leave off weight and cup size, since we are on the interwebz....


----------



## Osomir

It is also worth noting that data generally used for the Sudan is derived from data that came from time periods when the Sudan and South Sudan were one country and South Sudan is not primarily Islamic. They are primarily "animist" (a catchall phrase for indigenous beliefs) with influential Christian minorities. So the data stems from a mixed religious population.


----------



## Roudy

Osomir said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> 
> It's funny because you have to go to tribal backwards ass societies in Africa, to find abuse of women similar Muslim societies.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> lol where do you think most of your examples have come from there sport? You listed places like Guinea, Chad, Niger, etc. Guess what? They're in Africa.
Click to expand...

Afghanistan, Pakistan, Yemen, Iran, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, etc are in Africa?  

Anther F, this time in geography.


----------



## Osomir

Roudy said:


> Shariah code gives a MAN, the father, of a child to marry her off at whatever age he pleases.



Says the guy who has no idea how shariah code is formed. You don't even know what hadiths are. Do you even know how Shariah lawsets are made? You keep talking about it as if it were one singular code so I'm guessing that the answer is "no."


----------



## Osomir

Roudy said:


> Afghanistan, Pakistan, Yemen, Iran, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, etc are in Africa?
> 
> Anther F, this time in geography.



Yemen is fairly close and is on a poverty scale relative to many African States, but the primary examples that you have utilized to push the line that the largest users of child marriage are Islamic states, primarily came from Africa there bud.


----------



## Osomir

Also, why doesn't Africa count? That's where a lot of child marriage takes place. That's where the highest prevalence rates of it take place (as a percentage of population). Why on earth would anyone who wants to take an honest look at the subject ignore the African continent? Simply because it doesn't fit into your bigoted picture? Pathetic.


----------



## Coyote

Roudy said:


> Osomir said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, The more backwards, isolated, chaotic, and poor a society the more they will be chauvinistic, persecutive, and male dominated, and have these medieval traditions such as child brides.  That goes without saying. You didn't need to write a paper on this I could have told you that myself.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Right, so I'm not sure why you would ignore those factors when it came to Muslim majority countries.
> 
> 
> 
> There is nothing in any shariah code set that says that Muslims have to marry 9 year olds. Try again.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The fact that you discredit this as the prevalent cause of persecution of women and therefore prevalence of child brides in Muslim societies means you deserve an F in your paper.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> lol says the guy who though that the Bukhari and Muslim hadith collections were part of the Quran. Tell us again about how Muhammad wrote them
> 
> It's actually quite amusing that you can say this with such confidence when you have demonstrated and admitted that you don't know much about Islamic law, or even theology.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Shariah code gives a MAN, the father, of a child to marry her off at whatever age he pleases.
> 
> Neither the mother nor the child have any right or say according to Shariah law.  In fact women have very little rights under Shariah law, when it comes to many things such as marriage, divorce, the courts, money, travel,  etc. they are basically treated as the property of the men.
> 
> But then again, you already knew that, right?  Or did you not mention that in your amazing thesis?  LOL
Click to expand...


It's not just "Shariah" - if you look at the countries with the worst record for women, it includes many non-Muslim countries, such as Guatamala and those African countries with Christian majorities.  One of the things they have in common is conservative, traditional societies dominated by men and that is a mindset found in most of the dominant religions.

Traditional religions overall suck for women.


----------



## Osomir

I find it amusing how conveniently Roudy is willing to drop his reliance on Guinea, Niger, Chad, and Mali simply so that he can pretend to ignore the entire African continent. If nothing else, that is evidence in and of itself that he isn't really interested in the overarching issue of Child Marriage, and is just interested in justifying anti-Islamic bigotry.


----------



## Hossfly

Osomir said:


> Hossfly said:
> 
> 
> 
> BTW, next time you're up at State, tell JFK 'ol Hoss said Hey. I knew him in Viet Nam but he's out of my league now.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Not sure how that is supposed to be a comeback, but hey go you!
Click to expand...

One thing I am very curious about.  Since the U.S. is so busy working on counter-terrorism these days, why is such a poster with such "expertise" in counter terrorism doing on what is basically just a forum in which some (mainly retired) people participate and not busy at a desk in some counter terrorism unit helping the government.  Seems mighty strange to me.  How in the world will she pay off her student loans just diddling on some forum which in the real world has no importance?  Maybe Miss Osomir will claim to be a GS 17 and has her  underlings do all the work, giving her time to play around with forums.


----------



## Hossfly

Osomir said:


> Hossfly said:
> 
> 
> 
> You said you worked at the State Dept.  John Forbes Kerry works there too. When you see him, say 'ol Hoss sez 'Hey'. Simple.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Secretary of State works on the 7th floor primarily (of the Truman building), the workers of individual bureaus report to Assistant Secretaries (A/S) or Principle Deputy Assistant Secretaries (PDAS), or Deputy Assistant Secretaries (DAS). Meeting the actual Secretary of State is fairly rare.
Click to expand...

Now are we supposed to believe that a woman who appears to have all the time in the world to post on some forum which is unknown to most of this country is actually an employee of the State Department?  Miss Osomir is probably a clerk there and hides the fact from her bosses that she is fiddling around on a forum during working hours.  Isn't it great to have a job like that?  Or maybe Miss Osomir was let go because she was found fiddling around during working hours and is now collecting unemployment while looking for another job in her spare time (because the forums seem more important to her). Wow, I just finished up another heart transplant in record time.  Kudos to me.


----------



## Hossfly

Osomir said:


> I find it amusing how conveniently Roudy is willing to drop his reliance on Guinea, Niger, Chad, and Mali simply so that he can pretend to ignore the entire African continent. If nothing else, that is evidence in and of itself that he isn't really interested in the overarching issue of Child Marriage, and is just interested in justifying anti-Islamic bigotry.


Let's put the Muslim population in the right perspective.  www.pewforum.org/files/2009/10/Muslimpopulation.pdf

Meanwhile, why are you still blabbering about child marriages, Miss Osomir (especially since you are so hard at work at the State Department earning your salary).  Your expertise should also cover honor killings so tell us where they are most prevalent.  After all, there are young women being honor killed among the Muslim population for supposedly putting a stain on the family's reputation.  I would imagine Miss Osomir has no problems with the Muslims carrying signs saying that Hitler should have finished the job or one man's sign saying Kill the Juice (meaning Jews).  She just doesn't want anyone to say anything negative about Islam (I wonder why) even though the sad thing is that many people who follow this faith are even murdering each other if you are not of the right sect.  Sad that the Ahmadi Muslims say they only feel safe here in America.


----------



## Roudy

Osomir said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Shariah code gives a MAN, the father, of a child to marry her off at whatever age he pleases.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Says the guy who has no idea how shariah code is formed. You don't even know what hadiths are. Do you even know how Shariah lawsets are made? You keep talking about it as if it were one singular code so I'm guessing that the answer is "no."
Click to expand...

What are you babbling now?  I noticed you didn't dispute the fact that its the father that has the right to marry his daughter off, and the mother and daughter have no say in the matter.


----------



## Roudy

Osomir said:


> I find it amusing how conveniently Roudy is willing to drop his reliance on Guinea, Niger, Chad, and Mali simply so that he can pretend to ignore the entire African continent. If nothing else, that is evidence in and of itself that he isn't really interested in the overarching issue of Child Marriage, and is just interested in justifying anti-Islamic bigotry.


Actually it's pretty pathetic that you keep arguing the same one size fits all approach, that Islam has nothing or "very little" to do with the prevalence of child brides in Muslim countries, and the reasons are the same as other African countries you mentioned.  And you call yourself an educated person in this matter. I just don't see how. 

Moreover, I just don't understand what there is to dispute?  Devout Muslim men and clerics who know far more about Islam, are proudly telling everybody that they have every right to marry 9 year olds because Mohammad did so. Are you now claiming something other than what Muslims are, as to their justifications?  Ludicrous. 

But you keep putting that lipstick on that pig.


----------



## Roudy

Hossfly said:


> Osomir said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hossfly said:
> 
> 
> 
> You said you worked at the State Dept.  John Forbes Kerry works there too. When you see him, say 'ol Hoss sez 'Hey'. Simple.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Secretary of State works on the 7th floor primarily (of the Truman building), the workers of individual bureaus report to Assistant Secretaries (A/S) or Principle Deputy Assistant Secretaries (PDAS), or Deputy Assistant Secretaries (DAS). Meeting the actual Secretary of State is fairly rare.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Now are we supposed to believe that a woman who appears to have all the time in the world to post on some forum which is unknown to most of this country is actually an employee of the State Department?  Miss Osomir is probably a clerk there and hides the fact from her bosses that she is fiddling around on a forum during working hours.  Isn't it great to have a job like that?  Or maybe Miss Osomir was let go because she was found fiddling around during working hours and is now collecting unemployment while looking for another job in her spare time (because the forums seem more important to her). Wow, I just finished up another heart transplant in record time.  Kudos to me.
Click to expand...

Miss Fatima Misnomer is quite an expert on Islam, Shariah law, and drum roll please..."women's rights". LOL


----------



## Roudy

Women's rights and Muslim countries, now there's an oxymoron if there ever was one.


----------



## Hollie

Osomir said:


> I find it amusing how conveniently Roudy is willing to drop his reliance on Guinea, Niger, Chad, and Mali simply so that he can pretend to ignore the entire African continent. If nothing else, that is evidence in and of itself that he isn't really interested in the overarching issue of Child Marriage, and is just interested in justifying anti-Islamic bigotry.



It seems to me that saddest thing to witness is your continued defense of Islamic practices such as child marriages and abuse of women with nothing more than  but. but.. but.. but, look over there at what they do. 

I think we can all agree that poverty and other causes that lead to abuse of female children must be prevented. Many of those causes can be addressed with education, a better standard of living and a global rejection of such abuse.

However, how do we address the abuses of female children within Islamic ideology which provides the most perfect example for humanity as a grown man who marries a child?


----------



## Roudy

Coyote said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Osomir said:
> 
> 
> 
> Right, so I'm not sure why you would ignore those factors when it came to Muslim majority countries.
> 
> 
> 
> There is nothing in any shariah code set that says that Muslims have to marry 9 year olds. Try again.
> 
> 
> 
> lol says the guy who though that the Bukhari and Muslim hadith collections were part of the Quran. Tell us again about how Muhammad wrote them
> 
> It's actually quite amusing that you can say this with such confidence when you have demonstrated and admitted that you don't know much about Islamic law, or even theology.
> 
> 
> 
> Shariah code gives a MAN, the father, of a child to marry her off at whatever age he pleases.
> 
> Neither the mother nor the child have any right or say according to Shariah law.  In fact women have very little rights under Shariah law, when it comes to many things such as marriage, divorce, the courts, money, travel,  etc. they are basically treated as the property of the men.
> 
> But then again, you already knew that, right?  Or did you not mention that in your amazing thesis?  LOL
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> It's not just "Shariah" - if you look at the countries with the worst record for women, it includes many non-Muslim countries, such as Guatamala and those African countries with Christian majorities.  One of the things they have in common is conservative, traditional societies dominated by men and that is a mindset found in most of the dominant religions.
> 
> Traditional religions overall suck for women.
Click to expand...

Yes I agree.  All three faiths, Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, have been unfair and oppressive, if not barbaric towards women in history. 

However, with Islam being the dominant force in lives of Muslims today, in this case of child brides and many other related issues such as women's and minority rights, the main cause can be traced to Islam.


----------



## Coyote

Hollie said:


> Osomir said:
> 
> 
> 
> I find it amusing how conveniently Roudy is willing to drop his reliance on Guinea, Niger, Chad, and Mali simply so that he can pretend to ignore the entire African continent. If nothing else, that is evidence in and of itself that he isn't really interested in the overarching issue of Child Marriage, and is just interested in justifying anti-Islamic bigotry.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It seems to me that saddest thing to witness is your continued defense of Islamic practices such as child marriages and abuse of women with nothing more than  but. but.. but.. but, look over there at what they do.
Click to expand...


Where has he ever defended it?



> I think we can all agree that poverty and other causes that lead to abuse of female children must be prevented. Many of those causes can be addressed with education, a better standard of living and a global rejection of such abuse.
> 
> However, how do we address the abuses of female children within Islamic ideology which provides the most perfect example for humanity as a grown man who marries a child?



The same way we would address the abuses of female children within non-Islamic ideology.


----------



## Coyote

Hossfly said:


> Osomir said:
> 
> 
> 
> I find it amusing how conveniently Roudy is willing to drop his reliance on Guinea, Niger, Chad, and Mali simply so that he can pretend to ignore the entire African continent. If nothing else, that is evidence in and of itself that he isn't really interested in the overarching issue of Child Marriage, and is just interested in justifying anti-Islamic bigotry.
> 
> 
> 
> Let's put the Muslim population in the right perspective.  www.pewforum.org/files/2009/10/Muslimpopulation.pdf
> 
> Meanwhile, why are you still blabbering about child marriages, Miss Osomir (especially since you are so hard at work at the State Department earning your salary).  Your expertise should also cover honor killings so tell us where they are most prevalent.  After all, there are young women being honor killed among the Muslim population for supposedly putting a stain on the family's reputation.  I would imagine Miss Osomir has no problems with the Muslims carrying signs saying that Hitler should have finished the job or one man's sign saying Kill the Juice (meaning Jews).  She just doesn't want anyone to say anything negative about Islam (I wonder why) even though the sad thing is that many people who follow this faith are even murdering each other if you are not of the right sect.  Sad that the Ahmadi Muslims say they only feel safe here in America.
Click to expand...


Since the topic is child marriages, not honor killings, not Hitler - that might explain why the discussion is about (EGAD) child marriages.


----------



## Hossfly

Coyote said:


> Hossfly said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Osomir said:
> 
> 
> 
> I find it amusing how conveniently Roudy is willing to drop his reliance on Guinea, Niger, Chad, and Mali simply so that he can pretend to ignore the entire African continent. If nothing else, that is evidence in and of itself that he isn't really interested in the overarching issue of Child Marriage, and is just interested in justifying anti-Islamic bigotry.
> 
> 
> 
> Let's put the Muslim population in the right perspective.  www.pewforum.org/files/2009/10/Muslimpopulation.pdf
> 
> Meanwhile, why are you still blabbering about child marriages, Miss Osomir (especially since you are so hard at work at the State Department earning your salary).  Your expertise should also cover honor killings so tell us where they are most prevalent.  After all, there are young women being honor killed among the Muslim population for supposedly putting a stain on the family's reputation.  I would imagine Miss Osomir has no problems with the Muslims carrying signs saying that Hitler should have finished the job or one man's sign saying Kill the Juice (meaning Jews).  She just doesn't want anyone to say anything negative about Islam (I wonder why) even though the sad thing is that many people who follow this faith are even murdering each other if you are not of the right sect.  Sad that the Ahmadi Muslims say they only feel safe here in America.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Since the topic is child marriages, not honor killings, not Hitler - that might explain why the discussion is about (EGAD) child marriages.
Click to expand...

Why is this thread dragging on and on?  We know that there are child marriages and that little girls die on their wedding night, and we all know that there are little girls who die during pregnancy because their young bodies can't handle it.  We also know that even when the family moves to a civilized country such as England, young girls are still forced into marriages.  As far as Hitler is concerned, your friend Miss Osomir is busy calling anyone who speaks out against Islam bigoted, and I was just trying to show that the Muslims are very bigoted too as evidenced by some of the signs they carry at their protests.  In fact, not only are they bigoted against the Jews, but also Christians, Hindus, Buddhists and other sects of Muslims.  Please don't try to deny the truth, especially when the blood is still running down the streets in Iraq due to the spate of car bombings of one sect against another this past weekend.


----------



## Roudy

*UNICEF reports that the top five nations in the world with highest observed child marriage rates - Niger (75%), Chad (72%), Mali (71%), Bangladesh (64%), Guinea (63%) - are all Islamic majority countries.*

No, nothing to do with Islam.  Nothing at all.

Game, set, match.


----------



## Esmeralda

Roudy said:


> *UNICEF reports that the top five nations in the world with highest observed child marriage rates - Niger (75%), Chad (72%), Mali (71%), Bangladesh (64%), Guinea (63%) - are all Islamic majority countries.*
> 
> No, nothing to do with Islam.  Nothing at all.
> 
> Game, set, match.



You are so transparent. You are not interested in the problem of child brides: you are interesting in bashing Islam.   For people like you, everything that&#8217;s wrong with the world is the fault of blacks, Obama, Islam, or democrats/liberals/progressives.  You are a narrow minded bigot and no one except others who chant your vile credo is buying it.  LOOK at, READ the site I posted. They have no vested interest in being biased one way or another: they are interested only in the problem of child brides and of women around the world.  They have all the information and all the statistics on this issue, thoroughly researched without any racial or political agenda.  THEY SAY religion is not the issue, that this problem spans many religions.  You are not at all upset about other religions involved in child bride weddings, only Islamic countries: 	WHY IS THAT? Oh, it&#8217;s simple: because you are a bigot.

Child Marriage Facts and Figures | ICRW 

&#61607;	The site is the : International Center for Research on Women, and they say:

&#61607;	*"No one religious affiliation was associated with child marriage, according to a 2007 ICRW study. Rather, a variety of religions are associated with child marriage in countries throughout the world."*


----------



## Roudy

Esmeralda said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> 
> *UNICEF reports that the top five nations in the world with highest observed child marriage rates - Niger (75%), Chad (72%), Mali (71%), Bangladesh (64%), Guinea (63%) - are all Islamic majority countries.*
> 
> No, nothing to do with Islam.  Nothing at all.
> 
> Game, set, match.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You are so transparent. You are not interested in the problem of child brides: you are interesting in bashing Islam.   For people like you, everything thats wrong with the world is the fault of blacks, Obama, Islam, or democrats/liberals/progressives.  You are a narrow minded bigot and no one except others who chant your vile credo is buying it.  LOOK at, READ the site I posted. They have no vested interest in being biased one way or another: they are interested only in the problem of child brides and of women around the world.  They have all the information and all the statistics on this issue, thoroughly researched without any racial or political agenda.  THEY SAY religion is not the issue, that this problem spans many religions.  You are not at all upset about other religions involved in child bride weddings, only Islamic countries: 	WHY IS THAT? Oh, its simple: because you are a bigot.
> 
> Child Marriage Facts and Figures | ICRW
> 
> &#61607;	The site is the : International Center for Research on Women, and they say:
> 
> &#61607;	*"No one religious affiliation was associated with child marriage, according to a 2007 ICRW study. Rather, a variety of religions are associated with child marriage in countries throughout the world."*
Click to expand...

You are so transparent, you are not interested in the problem of child brides: you are interested in defending Islam. For people like you, nothing that Muslims do is the fault of Islam or Muslims themselves. It's always the fault of US, or Israel.  LOOK at, READ the site I posted. It is research conducted by UNICEF.  They have no vested interest in being biased one way or another: they are interested only in the problem of child brides.  

*UNICEF reports that the top five nations in the world with highest observed child marriage rates - Niger (75%), Chad (72%), Mali (71%), Bangladesh (64%), Guinea (63%) - are all Islamic majority countries.*


----------



## Tank

If not for white people setting the standards on this issue, things would be much worse for females of the world


----------



## Roudy

Tank said:


> If not for white people setting the standards on this issue, things would be much worse for females of the world


I don't think race is a factor here.


----------



## Esmeralda

Roudy said:


> Esmeralda said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> 
> *UNICEF reports that the top five nations in the world with highest observed child marriage rates - Niger (75%), Chad (72%), Mali (71%), Bangladesh (64%), Guinea (63%) - are all Islamic majority countries.*
> 
> No, nothing to do with Islam.  Nothing at all.
> 
> Game, set, match.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You are so transparent. You are not interested in the problem of child brides: you are interesting in bashing Islam.   For people like you, everything that&#8217;s wrong with the world is the fault of blacks, Obama, Islam, or democrats/liberals/progressives.  You are a narrow minded bigot and no one except others who chant your vile credo is buying it.  LOOK at, READ the site I posted. They have no vested interest in being biased one way or another: they are interested only in the problem of child brides and of women around the world.  They have all the information and all the statistics on this issue, thoroughly researched without any racial or political agenda.  THEY SAY religion is not the issue, that this problem spans many religions.  You are not at all upset about other religions involved in child bride weddings, only Islamic countries: 	WHY IS THAT? Oh, it&#8217;s simple: because you are a bigot.
> 
> Child Marriage Facts and Figures | ICRW
> 
> &#61607;	The site is the : International Center for Research on Women, and they say:
> 
> &#61607;	*"No one religious affiliation was associated with child marriage, according to a 2007 ICRW study. Rather, a variety of religions are associated with child marriage in countries throughout the world."*
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You are so transparent, you are not interested in the problem of child brides: you are interested in defending Islam. For people like you, nothing that Muslims do is the fault of Islam or Muslims themselves. It's always the fault of US, or Israel.  LOOK at, READ the site I posted. It is research conducted by UNICEF.  They have no vested interest in being biased one way or another: they are interested only in the problem of child brides.
> 
> *UNICEF reports that the top five nations in the world with highest observed child marriage rates - Niger (75%), Chad (72%), Mali (71%), Bangladesh (64%), Guinea (63%) - are all Islamic majority countries.*
Click to expand...


You are not being clever here; you're just being stupid.  You completely miss the point of my post.  You may list the stats from UNICEF, but you interpret them in a biased, bigoted way.  UNICEF says nothing about Islam. And you continue to ignore the fact that there are many religions, not just Islam, that have the problem of child brides.  You ARE completely transparent in your bigotry.

I am not DEFENDING Islam. I am after one thing only: truth and fairness. This thread was posted purportedly to discuss the problem of child brides but went directly to attacking Islam for having this problem and has not mentioned any other religion or culture.  I am against bigotry, not for any one religion.

Your angry, vicious, vitriolic and bitter prejudice makes you think anyone who tries to speak against bigotry when it concerns something about which you are bigoted is defending that one idea or thing you focus your bigotry on.  What the person is actually doing is arguing against the bigot, not defending what your bigotry focuses on.  You probably don't get the point I'm making.  Your mind is warped, sad and pathetic.  An ugly, black, wasteland full of decay and offal.  Wallow in your hate, anger, stupidity, bigotry.  Must be awful to be you.  You're really beneath contempt.

Oh, and btw, I'M NOT INTERESTED IN THE ISSUE OF CHILD BRIDES???  Really?  Who posted the site that discusses this issue in detail, w/o focusing on how bad one culture or another is?  Me.  And who failed to read all the detailed information they have there?  YOU.  You are not interested in the issue of child brides. You are only interested in bashing Islam.


----------



## Hossfly

Esmeralda said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Esmeralda said:
> 
> 
> 
> You are so transparent. You are not interested in the problem of child brides: you are interesting in bashing Islam.   For people like you, everything that&#8217;s wrong with the world is the fault of blacks, Obama, Islam, or democrats/liberals/progressives.  You are a narrow minded bigot and no one except others who chant your vile credo is buying it.  LOOK at, READ the site I posted. They have no vested interest in being biased one way or another: they are interested only in the problem of child brides and of women around the world.  They have all the information and all the statistics on this issue, thoroughly researched without any racial or political agenda.  THEY SAY religion is not the issue, that this problem spans many religions.  You are not at all upset about other religions involved in child bride weddings, only Islamic countries: 	WHY IS THAT? Oh, it&#8217;s simple: because you are a bigot.
> 
> Child Marriage Facts and Figures | ICRW
> 
> &#61607;	The site is the : International Center for Research on Women, and they say:
> 
> &#61607;	*"No one religious affiliation was associated with child marriage, according to a 2007 ICRW study. Rather, a variety of religions are associated with child marriage in countries throughout the world."*
> 
> 
> 
> You are so transparent, you are not interested in the problem of child brides: you are interested in defending Islam. For people like you, nothing that Muslims do is the fault of Islam or Muslims themselves. It's always the fault of US, or Israel.  LOOK at, READ the site I posted. It is research conducted by UNICEF.  They have no vested interest in being biased one way or another: they are interested only in the problem of child brides.
> 
> *UNICEF reports that the top five nations in the world with highest observed child marriage rates - Niger (75%), Chad (72%), Mali (71%), Bangladesh (64%), Guinea (63%) - are all Islamic majority countries.*
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You are not being clever here; you're just being stupid.  You completely miss the point of my post.  You may list the stats from UNICEF, but you interpret them in a biased, bigoted way.  UNICEF says nothing about Islam. And you continue to ignore the fact that there are many religions, not just Islam, that have the problem of child brides.  You ARE completely transparent in your bigotry.
> 
> I am not DEFENDING Islam. I am after one thing only: truth and fairness. This thread was posted purportedly to discuss the problem of child brides but went directly to attacking Islam for having this problem and has not mentioned any other religion or culture.  I am against bigotry, not for any one religion.
> 
> Your angry, vicious, vitriolic and bitter prejudice makes you think anyone who tries to speak against bigotry when it concerns something about which you are bigoted is defending that one idea or thing you focus your bigotry on.  What the person is actually doing is arguing against the bigot, not defending what your bigotry focuses on.  You probably don't get the point I'm making.  Your mind is warped, sad and pathetic.  An ugly, black, wasteland full of decay and offal.  Wallow in your hate, anger, stupidity, bigotry.  Must be awful to be you.  You're really beneath contempt.
> 
> Oh, and btw, I'M NOT INTERESTED IN THE ISSUE OF CHILD BRIDES???  Really?  Who posted the site that discusses this issue in detail, w/o focusing on how bad one culture or another is?  Me.  And who failed to read all the detailed information they have there?  YOU.  You are not interested in the issue of child brides. You are only interested in bashing Islam.
Click to expand...

What is the breakdown on religions then? At a glance I would say the vast majority are Islamic countries, not that it matters because a Viagra induced boner has no religion.


----------



## Roudy

Esmeralda said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Esmeralda said:
> 
> 
> 
> You are so transparent. You are not interested in the problem of child brides: you are interesting in bashing Islam.   For people like you, everything that&#8217;s wrong with the world is the fault of blacks, Obama, Islam, or democrats/liberals/progressives.  You are a narrow minded bigot and no one except others who chant your vile credo is buying it.  LOOK at, READ the site I posted. They have no vested interest in being biased one way or another: they are interested only in the problem of child brides and of women around the world.  They have all the information and all the statistics on this issue, thoroughly researched without any racial or political agenda.  THEY SAY religion is not the issue, that this problem spans many religions.  You are not at all upset about other religions involved in child bride weddings, only Islamic countries: 	WHY IS THAT? Oh, it&#8217;s simple: because you are a bigot.
> 
> Child Marriage Facts and Figures | ICRW
> 
> &#61607;	The site is the : International Center for Research on Women, and they say:
> 
> &#61607;	*"No one religious affiliation was associated with child marriage, according to a 2007 ICRW study. Rather, a variety of religions are associated with child marriage in countries throughout the world."*
> 
> 
> 
> You are so transparent, you are not interested in the problem of child brides: you are interested in defending Islam. For people like you, nothing that Muslims do is the fault of Islam or Muslims themselves. It's always the fault of US, or Israel.  LOOK at, READ the site I posted. It is research conducted by UNICEF.  They have no vested interest in being biased one way or another: they are interested only in the problem of child brides.
> 
> *UNICEF reports that the top five nations in the world with highest observed child marriage rates - Niger (75%), Chad (72%), Mali (71%), Bangladesh (64%), Guinea (63%) - are all Islamic majority countries.*
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You are not being clever here; you're just being stupid.  You completely miss the point of my post.  You may list the stats from UNICEF, but you interpret them in a biased, bigoted way.  UNICEF says nothing about Islam. And you continue to ignore the fact that there are many religions, not just Islam, that have the problem of child brides.  You ARE completely transparent in your bigotry.
> 
> I am not DEFENDING Islam. I am after one thing only: truth and fairness. This thread was posted purportedly to discuss the problem of child brides but went directly to attacking Islam for having this problem and has not mentioned any other religion or culture.  I am against bigotry, not for any one religion.
> 
> Your angry, vicious, vitriolic and bitter prejudice makes you think anyone who tries to speak against bigotry when it concerns something about which you are bigoted is defending that one idea or thing you focus your bigotry on.  What the person is actually doing is arguing against the bigot, not defending what your bigotry focuses on.  You probably don't get the point I'm making.  Your mind is warped, sad and pathetic.  An ugly, black, wasteland full of decay and offal.  Wallow in your hate, anger, stupidity, bigotry.  Must be awful to be you.  You're really beneath contempt.
> 
> Oh, and btw, I'M NOT INTERESTED IN THE ISSUE OF CHILD BRIDES???  Really?  Who posted the site that discusses this issue in detail, w/o focusing on how bad one culture or another is?  Me.  And who failed to read all the detailed information they have there?  YOU.  You are not interested in the issue of child brides. You are only interested in bashing Islam.
Click to expand...

No, you're not defending Islam. <LOL> According to UNICEF, the top five nations that this phenomenon of child brides is happening in, happen to be Muslim majority, yet you and others like you keep LYING, trying to take Islam out of picture. (Interested in truth?  Ya sure). I wouldn't be surprised if women's rights is at rock bottom in those same five countries as well.

What's interesting is those who keep defending the biggest bigots, persecutors, oppressors, and haters in the world not seen since Nazism, which are today's Muslim societies, always get on a pedestal and preach to others about "bigotry".  

Question is why is Muslim hatred, barbarism, and intolerance so acceptable and taken for granted?  And...Just who do you think you're fooling with this charade?  LOL


----------



## Roudy

Hossfly said:


> Esmeralda said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> 
> You are so transparent, you are not interested in the problem of child brides: you are interested in defending Islam. For people like you, nothing that Muslims do is the fault of Islam or Muslims themselves. It's always the fault of US, or Israel.  LOOK at, READ the site I posted. It is research conducted by UNICEF.  They have no vested interest in being biased one way or another: they are interested only in the problem of child brides.
> 
> *UNICEF reports that the top five nations in the world with highest observed child marriage rates - Niger (75%), Chad (72%), Mali (71%), Bangladesh (64%), Guinea (63%) - are all Islamic majority countries.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You are not being clever here; you're just being stupid.  You completely miss the point of my post.  You may list the stats from UNICEF, but you interpret them in a biased, bigoted way.  UNICEF says nothing about Islam. And you continue to ignore the fact that there are many religions, not just Islam, that have the problem of child brides.  You ARE completely transparent in your bigotry.
> 
> I am not DEFENDING Islam. I am after one thing only: truth and fairness. This thread was posted purportedly to discuss the problem of child brides but went directly to attacking Islam for having this problem and has not mentioned any other religion or culture.  I am against bigotry, not for any one religion.
> 
> Your angry, vicious, vitriolic and bitter prejudice makes you think anyone who tries to speak against bigotry when it concerns something about which you are bigoted is defending that one idea or thing you focus your bigotry on.  What the person is actually doing is arguing against the bigot, not defending what your bigotry focuses on.  You probably don't get the point I'm making.  Your mind is warped, sad and pathetic.  An ugly, black, wasteland full of decay and offal.  Wallow in your hate, anger, stupidity, bigotry.  Must be awful to be you.  You're really beneath contempt.
> 
> Oh, and btw, I'M NOT INTERESTED IN THE ISSUE OF CHILD BRIDES???  Really?  Who posted the site that discusses this issue in detail, w/o focusing on how bad one culture or another is?  Me.  And who failed to read all the detailed information they have there?  YOU.  You are not interested in the issue of child brides. You are only interested in bashing Islam.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> What is the breakdown on religions then? At a glance I would say the vast majority are Islamic countries, not that it matters because a Viagra induced boner has no religion.
Click to expand...

There is no question, Islamic violence and terrorism certainly has a degree of sexual frustration as part of its causes. 

When you combine the strict, repressive societies with a promise of unlimited sex with virgins in the Islamic afterlife, that boner can make you do some amazing things.


----------



## Sunshine

I see the usual maggots still defending this.  I got out of this thread because it just felt too slimey.  Wish I hadn't looked back in.  God, you liberals are disgusting.


----------



## Coyote

Thank you for your valuable though somewhat confusing contribution.

This thread has turned into quite a good discussion about a complex worldwide issue.  Strangely, no one seems to be defending the practice but perhaps I've misunderstood your post or the fact that you've not been reading the thread is to blame.


----------



## Coyote

Roudy said:


> Hossfly said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Esmeralda said:
> 
> 
> 
> You are not being clever here; you're just being stupid.  You completely miss the point of my post.  You may list the stats from UNICEF, but you interpret them in a biased, bigoted way.  UNICEF says nothing about Islam. And you continue to ignore the fact that there are many religions, not just Islam, that have the problem of child brides.  You ARE completely transparent in your bigotry.
> 
> I am not DEFENDING Islam. I am after one thing only: truth and fairness. This thread was posted purportedly to discuss the problem of child brides but went directly to attacking Islam for having this problem and has not mentioned any other religion or culture.  I am against bigotry, not for any one religion.
> 
> Your angry, vicious, vitriolic and bitter prejudice makes you think anyone who tries to speak against bigotry when it concerns something about which you are bigoted is defending that one idea or thing you focus your bigotry on.  What the person is actually doing is arguing against the bigot, not defending what your bigotry focuses on.  You probably don't get the point I'm making.  Your mind is warped, sad and pathetic.  An ugly, black, wasteland full of decay and offal.  Wallow in your hate, anger, stupidity, bigotry.  Must be awful to be you.  You're really beneath contempt.
> 
> Oh, and btw, I'M NOT INTERESTED IN THE ISSUE OF CHILD BRIDES???  Really?  Who posted the site that discusses this issue in detail, w/o focusing on how bad one culture or another is?  Me.  And who failed to read all the detailed information they have there?  YOU.  You are not interested in the issue of child brides. You are only interested in bashing Islam.
> 
> 
> 
> What is the breakdown on religions then? At a glance I would say the vast majority are Islamic countries, not that it matters because a Viagra induced boner has no religion.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> There is no question, Islamic violence and terrorism certainly has a degree of sexual frustration as part of its causes.
> 
> *When you combine the strict, repressive societies with a promise of unlimited sex with virgins in the Islamic afterlife, that boner can make you do some amazing things*.
Click to expand...



You know...you have a good point there.  The worst sexual exploitations seem to occur in the most socially repressive cultures and religious sects that demand celibacy or drastically restrict social interaction between males and females prior to marriage.  So...you end up with a large number of frustrated testosterone infested young men....


----------



## Coyote

Hossfly said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hossfly said:
> 
> 
> 
> Let's put the Muslim population in the right perspective.  www.pewforum.org/files/2009/10/Muslimpopulation.pdf
> 
> Meanwhile, why are you still blabbering about child marriages, Miss Osomir (especially since you are so hard at work at the State Department earning your salary).  Your expertise should also cover honor killings so tell us where they are most prevalent.  After all, there are young women being honor killed among the Muslim population for supposedly putting a stain on the family's reputation.  I would imagine Miss Osomir has no problems with the Muslims carrying signs saying that Hitler should have finished the job or one man's sign saying Kill the Juice (meaning Jews).  She just doesn't want anyone to say anything negative about Islam (I wonder why) even though the sad thing is that many people who follow this faith are even murdering each other if you are not of the right sect.  Sad that the Ahmadi Muslims say they only feel safe here in America.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Since the topic is child marriages, not honor killings, not Hitler - that might explain why the discussion is about (EGAD) child marriages.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Why is this thread dragging on and on?  We know that there are child marriages and that little girls die on their wedding night, and we all know that there are little girls who die during pregnancy because their young bodies can't handle it.
Click to expand...


Because it is a good discussion, and it's a serious issue worth discussing.  Much more so, say, then marvelous inventions by Israel or Judaization of America or Justin Beiber.



> We also know that even when the family moves to a civilized country such as England, young girls are still forced into marriages.



It's not widespread, but yes, and it's usually by parents who are themselves immigrants, the more generations the less you see it.



> As far as Hitler is concerned, your friend Miss Osomir is busy calling anyone who speaks out against Islam bigoted, and I was just trying to show that the Muslims are very bigoted too as evidenced by some of the signs they carry at their protests.



I have not seen Osomir call "anyone who speaks out against Islam bigoted" - I have seen some good contributions to the issue and personal attacks against him in return.  

I do however see the anti-Islamic generalizations being used that is very similar to anti-semitism.  Thing is - when it's directed against Jews, we call it what it is: anti-semitism.  When it's directed against Muslims....it appears to be acceptable.

Sure some Muslims are bigoted.  Just like any human group and religion in the world.  Xenophobia is hardwired.  But come on...let's not drag this down into a Nazi/Hitler mudfest.  I think the issue of child brides is a good one with out Hitler references.



> In fact, not only are they bigoted against the Jews, but also Christians, Hindus, Buddhists and other sects of Muslims.



You describe SOME Muslims and you describe SOME Christians, Hindus and Buddhists in that statement.  Why do you choose to only single out Muslims?



> Please don't try to deny the truth, especially when the blood is still running down the streets in Iraq due to the spate of car bombings of one sect against another this past weekend.



What truth am I supposed to be denying?  That all Islam is a religion of hateful violent bigots?


----------



## Coyote

Roudy said:


> *UNICEF reports that the top five nations in the world with highest observed child marriage rates - Niger (75%), Chad (72%), Mali (71%), Bangladesh (64%), Guinea (63%) - are all Islamic majority countries.*
> 
> No, nothing to do with Islam.  Nothing at all.
> 
> Game, set, match.


 

From your Unicef report:   ...include Niger  where the incidence of child marriage is a staggering 75 percent, Chad (72 per cent), Mali (71 per cent),Bangladesh (64 per cent), Guinea (63per cent), Central African Republic (61 per cent), Mozambique (56 per cent),
and Nepal (51 per cent).

Niger, Chad, Mali,  and Bangladesh are Muslim Majority.  Guinea is only about 38 percent Muslim, the majority is "animist".  CAR and Mozambique are Christian.  Nepal is Hindu.

If Islam is the primary cause - why do we see such a diversity in religions here? 

What else is in common with those regions?


----------



## Roudy

Coyote said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hossfly said:
> 
> 
> 
> What is the breakdown on religions then? At a glance I would say the vast majority are Islamic countries, not that it matters because a Viagra induced boner has no religion.
> 
> 
> 
> There is no question, Islamic violence and terrorism certainly has a degree of sexual frustration as part of its causes.
> 
> *When you combine the strict, repressive societies with a promise of unlimited sex with virgins in the Islamic afterlife, that boner can make you do some amazing things*.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> You know...you have a good point there.  The worst sexual exploitations seem to occur in the most socially repressive cultures and religious sects that demand celibacy or drastically restrict social interaction between males and females prior to marriage.  So...you end up with a large number of frustrated testosterone infested young men....
Click to expand...

That is for sure. When you're talking about a lifetime of watching women being covered from head to toe, strict punishment for premarital sex, and lack of any sports or activities for the young, suddenly those virgins in heaven become very appealing.


----------



## Roudy

Coyote said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> 
> *UNICEF reports that the top five nations in the world with highest observed child marriage rates - Niger (75%), Chad (72%), Mali (71%), Bangladesh (64%), Guinea (63%) - are all Islamic majority countries.*
> 
> No, nothing to do with Islam.  Nothing at all.
> 
> Game, set, match.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> From your Unicef report:   ...include Niger &#8211; where the incidence of child marriage is a staggering 75 percent, Chad (72 per cent), Mali (71 per cent),Bangladesh (64 per cent), Guinea (63per cent), Central African Republic (61 per cent), Mozambique (56 per cent),
> and Nepal (51 per cent).
> 
> Niger, Chad, Mali,  and Bangladesh are Muslim Majority.  Guinea is only about 38 percent Muslim, the majority is "animist".  CAR and Mozambique are Christian.  Nepal is Hindu.
> 
> If Islam is the primary cause - why do we see such a diversity in religions here?
> 
> What else is in common with those regions?
Click to expand...

It says Guinea is 63 Muslim. And if you delve into it, you will see the practice is more common among the Muslims than Christians.  I'm not saying there aren't other causes among non Muslims.  What I am saying is Islam is the number one cause among Muslims. You add religion to the other causes, and that's why it's most prevalent among Muslims. It's like adding gasoline to a fire. 

I don't understand why this is so complex, Muslims themselves even cite Mohammad's (the perfect human being) marriage to Aisha as the reason it is acceptable for them.  And the phenomenon is even legalized in some Muslim nations, and those that it isn't, the religious court often over turns the civil, because it is sanctioned by Islam.


----------



## Esmeralda

Coyote said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> 
> *UNICEF reports that the top five nations in the world with highest observed child marriage rates - Niger (75%), Chad (72%), Mali (71%), Bangladesh (64%), Guinea (63%) - are all Islamic majority countries.*
> 
> No, nothing to do with Islam.  Nothing at all.
> 
> Game, set, match.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> From your Unicef report:   ...include Niger &#8211; where the incidence of child marriage is a staggering 75 percent, Chad (72 per cent), Mali (71 per cent),Bangladesh (64 per cent), Guinea (63per cent), Central African Republic (61 per cent), Mozambique (56 per cent),
> and Nepal (51 per cent).
> 
> Niger, Chad, Mali,  and Bangladesh are Muslim Majority.  Guinea is only about 38 percent Muslim, the majority is "animist".  CAR and Mozambique are Christian.  Nepal is Hindu.
> 
> If Islam is the primary cause - why do we see such a diversity in religions here?
> 
> *What else is in common with those regions?*
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Poverty and lack of education.  That's what it says in the site I read.  The real links in the child bride problem are poverty and lack of education, not religion.
Click to expand...


----------



## Coyote

Roudy said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> 
> *UNICEF reports that the top five nations in the world with highest observed child marriage rates - Niger (75%), Chad (72%), Mali (71%), Bangladesh (64%), Guinea (63%) - are all Islamic majority countries.*
> 
> No, nothing to do with Islam.  Nothing at all.
> 
> Game, set, match.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> From your Unicef report:   ...include Niger &#8211; where the incidence of child marriage is a staggering 75 percent, Chad (72 per cent), Mali (71 per cent),Bangladesh (64 per cent), Guinea (63per cent), Central African Republic (61 per cent), Mozambique (56 per cent),
> and Nepal (51 per cent).
> 
> Niger, Chad, Mali,  and Bangladesh are Muslim Majority.  Guinea is only about 38 percent Muslim, the majority is "animist".  CAR and Mozambique are Christian.  Nepal is Hindu.
> 
> If Islam is the primary cause - why do we see such a diversity in religions here?
> 
> What else is in common with those regions?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> It says Guinea is 63 Muslim.
Click to expand...


You're right, I was looking at Guinea-Bissau, wrong place. 



> And if you delve into it, you will see the practice is more common among the Muslims than Christians.  I'm not saying there aren't other causes among non Muslims.  What I am saying is Islam is the number one cause among Muslims. You add religion to the other causes, and that's why it's most prevalent among Muslims. It's like adding gasoline to a fire.



More common, but not that much more common.  I do agree the religion has an *influence *but I strongly disagree with it being the "number one cause".  Over and over, the primary causes in the worst countries - and this was specifically brought up in Yemen are poverty, instability and war, weak central governments.  The primary causes in Muslim countries are the same as in non-Muslim countries because many of these countries exist side by side in the same regions with similar cultures  and conditions despite different religions.



> I don't understand why this is so complex, Muslims themselves even cite Mohammad's (the perfect human being) marriage to Aisha as the reason it is acceptable for them.  And the phenomenon is even legalized in some Muslim nations, and those that it isn't, the religious court often over turns the civil, because it is sanctioned by Islam.



It's complex because SOME Muslims cite that, and SOME Muslims feel child marriage is acceptable.  At the same time there are plenty of Muslims who disagree with that interpretation of Islam and of Aisha's age (in fact, the sources I used to support her age as older then you claim are from those).  The fact that child marriage is not ubiquitously condoned in all Muslim countries.


----------



## Coyote

Roudy said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> 
> There is no question, Islamic violence and terrorism certainly has a degree of sexual frustration as part of its causes.
> 
> *When you combine the strict, repressive societies with a promise of unlimited sex with virgins in the Islamic afterlife, that boner can make you do some amazing things*.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You know...you have a good point there.  The worst sexual exploitations seem to occur in the most socially repressive cultures and religious sects that demand celibacy or drastically restrict social interaction between males and females prior to marriage.  So...you end up with a large number of frustrated testosterone infested young men....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> That is for sure. When you're talking about a lifetime of watching women being covered from head to toe, strict punishment for premarital sex, and lack of any sports or activities for the young, suddenly those virgins in heaven become very appealing.
Click to expand...


Here's another unpleasant tidbit.  India is a culture that separates the sexes,  prizes males, discourages pre-marital involvement, prizes virginity and is considered one of the worst in the world for violence against women.  Throw in the fact that families can select the sex of their children, there is an over abundance of young men, not enough brides and a huge problem with violence.  And, of course, child marriages.  Most of the problems in all these countries occur in the rural villages and tribal areas where religion is strong and education weak.


----------



## Roudy

Coyote said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> From your Unicef report:   ...include Niger &#8211; where the incidence of child marriage is a staggering 75 percent, Chad (72 per cent), Mali (71 per cent),Bangladesh (64 per cent), Guinea (63per cent), Central African Republic (61 per cent), Mozambique (56 per cent),
> and Nepal (51 per cent).
> 
> Niger, Chad, Mali,  and Bangladesh are Muslim Majority.  Guinea is only about 38 percent Muslim, the majority is "animist".  CAR and Mozambique are Christian.  Nepal is Hindu.
> 
> If Islam is the primary cause - why do we see such a diversity in religions here?
> 
> What else is in common with those regions?
> 
> 
> 
> It says Guinea is 63 Muslim.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You're right, I was looking at Guinea-Bissau, wrong place.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And if you delve into it, you will see the practice is more common among the Muslims than Christians.  I'm not saying there aren't other causes among non Muslims.  What I am saying is Islam is the number one cause among Muslims. You add religion to the other causes, and that's why it's most prevalent among Muslims. It's like adding gasoline to a fire.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> More common, but not that much more common.  I do agree the religion has an *influence *but I strongly disagree with it being the "number one cause".  Over and over, the primary causes in the worst countries - and this was specifically brought up in Yemen are poverty, instability and war, weak central governments.  The primary causes in Muslim countries are the same as in non-Muslim countries because many of these countries exist side by side in the same regions with similar cultures  and conditions despite different religions.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I don't understand why this is so complex, Muslims themselves even cite Mohammad's (the perfect human being) marriage to Aisha as the reason it is acceptable for them.  And the phenomenon is even legalized in some Muslim nations, and those that it isn't, the religious court often over turns the civil, because it is sanctioned by Islam.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> It's complex because SOME Muslims cite that, and SOME Muslims feel child marriage is acceptable.  At the same time there are plenty of Muslims who disagree with that interpretation of Islam and of Aisha's age (in fact, the sources I used to support her age as older then you claim are from those).  The fact that child marriage is not ubiquitously condoned in all Muslim countries.
Click to expand...

As indicated earlier in the thread.  The more secular a society, the less acceptable and therefore illegal these kids of practices. Unfortunately with Muslims, they are mostly very religious societies that believe in Islam and Shariah law above all else, even nationalism.  While factors such as education and poverty are main contributors in non Muslim societies, the main contributor in Muslim societies is Islam, as Islam goes first.


----------



## Hollie

Roudy said:


> Hossfly said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Esmeralda said:
> 
> 
> 
> You are not being clever here; you're just being stupid.  You completely miss the point of my post.  You may list the stats from UNICEF, but you interpret them in a biased, bigoted way.  UNICEF says nothing about Islam. And you continue to ignore the fact that there are many religions, not just Islam, that have the problem of child brides.  You ARE completely transparent in your bigotry.
> 
> I am not DEFENDING Islam. I am after one thing only: truth and fairness. This thread was posted purportedly to discuss the problem of child brides but went directly to attacking Islam for having this problem and has not mentioned any other religion or culture.  I am against bigotry, not for any one religion.
> 
> Your angry, vicious, vitriolic and bitter prejudice makes you think anyone who tries to speak against bigotry when it concerns something about which you are bigoted is defending that one idea or thing you focus your bigotry on.  What the person is actually doing is arguing against the bigot, not defending what your bigotry focuses on.  You probably don't get the point I'm making.  Your mind is warped, sad and pathetic.  An ugly, black, wasteland full of decay and offal.  Wallow in your hate, anger, stupidity, bigotry.  Must be awful to be you.  You're really beneath contempt.
> 
> Oh, and btw, I'M NOT INTERESTED IN THE ISSUE OF CHILD BRIDES???  Really?  Who posted the site that discusses this issue in detail, w/o focusing on how bad one culture or another is?  Me.  And who failed to read all the detailed information they have there?  YOU.  You are not interested in the issue of child brides. You are only interested in bashing Islam.
> 
> 
> 
> What is the breakdown on religions then? At a glance I would say the vast majority are Islamic countries, not that it matters because a Viagra induced boner has no religion.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> There is no question, Islamic violence and terrorism certainly has a degree of sexual frustration as part of its causes.
> 
> When you combine the strict, repressive societies with a promise of unlimited sex with virgins in the Islamic afterlife, that boner can make you do some amazing things.
Click to expand...


It can only be described as a debilitating clinical condition that causes people to spend enormous amounts of time, effort and risk global ridicule in critiquing how it may or may not be be islamically correct for a woman to reveal a tuft of hair, an exposed ankle or even a bare forearm.

The sexually and emotionally insecure men of Islam are both obsessed with and terrified of sex beyond even the wildest imaginings of Westerners. The obsession is far from healthy and even further from objective reality. We frequently joke about men's preoccupation with sex and female body parts in the West, but the fascination with these things pales in comparison when you consider that men in the Moslem world are literally consumed by female sexuality and with their fear of it. It is ironic that both Moslem men and women are under the mistaken impression that Western society is over sexualized compared to them, when in fact, it is practically impossible to be more obsessed with sexual matters than they are in the Moslem world.

Consider for a moment a culture that would prefer to let young girls die in a burning building than to risk having them run out of said building not properly shrouded in their islamically correct uniforms; and tell me that such a society is less preoccupied with matters of sex than we are in the West.

Enormous effort is spent veiling women, dressing them in amorphous sacks, silencing them, reviling women, punishing them, controlling them, keeping them uneducated, -- in short, dehumanizing women in every way possible, all under the pretence of "protecting" them.

The women in these societies are brainwashed from birth into thinking that this cultural preoccupation somehow is necessary and that it "liberates" them in some bizarre manner.


----------



## Sunni Man

..........................................^^^^  Funny stuff......LOL   ..


----------



## Hossfly

Coyote said:


> Hossfly said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> Since the topic is child marriages, not honor killings, not Hitler - that might explain why the discussion is about (EGAD) child marriages.
> 
> 
> 
> Why is this thread dragging on and on?  We know that there are child marriages and that little girls die on their wedding night, and we all know that there are little girls who die during pregnancy because their young bodies can't handle it.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Because it is a good discussion, and it's a serious issue worth discussing.  Much more so, say, then marvelous inventions by Israel or Judaization of America or Justin Beiber.
> 
> 
> 
> It's not widespread, but yes, and it's usually by parents who are themselves immigrants, the more generations the less you see it.
> 
> 
> 
> I have not seen Osomir call "anyone who speaks out against Islam bigoted" - I have seen some good contributions to the issue and personal attacks against him in return.
> 
> I do however see the anti-Islamic generalizations being used that is very similar to anti-semitism.  Thing is - when it's directed against Jews, we call it what it is: anti-semitism.  When it's directed against Muslims....it appears to be acceptable.
> 
> Sure some Muslims are bigoted.  Just like any human group and religion in the world.  Xenophobia is hardwired.  But come on...let's not drag this down into a Nazi/Hitler mudfest.  I think the issue of child brides is a good one with out Hitler references.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In fact, not only are they bigoted against the Jews, but also Christians, Hindus, Buddhists and other sects of Muslims.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You describe SOME Muslims and you describe SOME Christians, Hindus and Buddhists in that statement.  Why do you choose to only single out Muslims?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Please don't try to deny the truth, especially when the blood is still running down the streets in Iraq due to the spate of car bombings of one sect against another this past weekend.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> What truth am I supposed to be denying?  That all Islam is a religion of hateful violent bigots?
Click to expand...

I would think that the most important issue of the day is what is happening in Syria.  The fact of underage brides who die on their wedding night or who die in pregnancy will be something that will go on and on.  I am of the impression that no matter how long people are living in a civilized country, this will still happen, especially when the parents send the young girl to a country to marry some relative.  As far as your friend Miss Osomir calling people bigoted who say something derogatory against Islam, if you have missed this you have your blinders on.  And, if you are not aware of what is going on in Muslim countries with regard to people who are non Muslims and even Muslims of different sects (and this is not just a handful of Muslims showing bigotry, which also includes murder), I would say you also have you blinders on.  However, who am I to tell you to take your blinders off if you feel comfortable with them on?


----------



## Roudy

Esmeralda said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> 
> *UNICEF reports that the top five nations in the world with highest observed child marriage rates - Niger (75%), Chad (72%), Mali (71%), Bangladesh (64%), Guinea (63%) - are all Islamic majority countries.*
> 
> No, nothing to do with Islam.  Nothing at all.
> 
> Game, set, match.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> From your Unicef report:   ...include Niger &#8211; where the incidence of child marriage is a staggering 75 percent, Chad (72 per cent), Mali (71 per cent),Bangladesh (64 per cent), Guinea (63per cent), Central African Republic (61 per cent), Mozambique (56 per cent),
> and Nepal (51 per cent).
> 
> Niger, Chad, Mali,  and Bangladesh are Muslim Majority.  Guinea is only about 38 percent Muslim, the majority is "animist".  CAR and Mozambique are Christian.  Nepal is Hindu.
> 
> If Islam is the primary cause - why do we see such a diversity in religions here?
> 
> *What else is in common with those regions?*
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Poverty and lack of education.  That's what it says in the site I read.  The real links in the child bride problem are poverty and lack of education, not religion.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Again, this is not a one size fits all.  Saudi Arabia, Iran, Iraq, Egypt are not necessarily "poverty stricken" or have exceptionally low educational levels.  In fact Iran has some of the highest educated among Muslim countries in the region.  Yet, Muslim clerics and the grand ayatollah (people who generally know more about Islam) have said that since child brides are sanctioned by Islam, and since that's what Mohammad did, then so can his followers.
> 
> Therefore, the reasons can be economic, educational, governmental, cultural, and yes, RELIGION.
> 
> More lipstick on the pig?  LOL
Click to expand...


----------



## Roudy

Sunni Man said:


> ..........................................^^^^  Funny stuff......LOL   ..


Yeah, it's both horrifying and comedic at the same time.  But then again you're the one who said Muslim men in America should be allowed to have four wives, because that's what Shariah law says.  

Would you like me repeat what else you said?


----------



## Roudy

Coyote said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> You know...you have a good point there.  The worst sexual exploitations seem to occur in the most socially repressive cultures and religious sects that demand celibacy or drastically restrict social interaction between males and females prior to marriage.  So...you end up with a large number of frustrated testosterone infested young men....
> 
> 
> 
> That is for sure. When you're talking about a lifetime of watching women being covered from head to toe, strict punishment for premarital sex, and lack of any sports or activities for the young, suddenly those virgins in heaven become very appealing.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Here's another unpleasant tidbit.  India is a culture that separates the sexes,  prizes males, discourages pre-marital involvement, prizes virginity and is considered one of the worst in the world for violence against women.  Throw in the fact that families can select the sex of their children, there is an over abundance of young men, not enough brides and a huge problem with violence.  And, of course, child marriages.  Most of the problems in all these countries occur in the rural villages and tribal areas where religion is strong and education weak.
Click to expand...

But in India it's cultural chauvinism, and not the religion, that is, unless you're talking about Indian Muslims, of which there are 300 million.  In their case it's religion, economic, cultural, and educational.


----------



## Roudy

Hollie said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hossfly said:
> 
> 
> 
> What is the breakdown on religions then? At a glance I would say the vast majority are Islamic countries, not that it matters because a Viagra induced boner has no religion.
> 
> 
> 
> There is no question, Islamic violence and terrorism certainly has a degree of sexual frustration as part of its causes.
> 
> When you combine the strict, repressive societies with a promise of unlimited sex with virgins in the Islamic afterlife, that boner can make you do some amazing things.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> It can only be described as a debilitating clinical condition that causes people to spend enormous amounts of time, effort and risk global ridicule in critiquing how it may or may not be be &#8220;islamically correct&#8221; for a woman to reveal a tuft of hair, an exposed ankle or even a bare forearm.
> 
> The sexually and emotionally insecure men of Islam are both obsessed with and terrified of sex beyond even the wildest imaginings of Westerners. The obsession is far from healthy and even further from objective reality. We frequently joke about men's preoccupation with sex and female body parts in the West, but the fascination with these things pales in comparison when you consider that men in the Moslem world are literally consumed by female sexuality and with their fear of it. It is ironic that both Moslem men and women are under the mistaken impression that Western society is over sexualized compared to them, when in fact, it is practically impossible to be more obsessed with sexual matters than they are in the Moslem world.
> 
> Consider for a moment a culture that would prefer to let young girls die in a burning building than to risk having them run out of said building not properly shrouded in their &#8220;islamically correct&#8221; uniforms; and tell me that such a society is less preoccupied with matters of sex than we are in the West.
> 
> Enormous effort is spent veiling women, dressing them in amorphous sacks, silencing them, reviling women, punishing them, controlling them, keeping them uneducated, -- in short, dehumanizing women in every way possible, all under the pretence of "protecting" them.
> 
> The women in these societies are brainwashed from birth into thinking that this cultural preoccupation somehow is necessary and that it "liberates" them in some bizarre manner.
Click to expand...

Hollie you touched on a very important subject.  Listen to this what this former Islamist / reformed terrorist says will happen when Islamic radicals take over society. Very interesting:

[ame=http://youtube.com/watch?v=Ao94x-KemJA]Arabs for Israel - Muslims for Israel - Dr.Tawfik Hamid - YouTube[/ame]


----------



## Coyote

Roudy said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> 
> That is for sure. When you're talking about a lifetime of watching women being covered from head to toe, strict punishment for premarital sex, and lack of any sports or activities for the young, suddenly those virgins in heaven become very appealing.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here's another unpleasant tidbit.  India is a culture that separates the sexes,  prizes males, discourages pre-marital involvement, prizes virginity and is considered one of the worst in the world for violence against women.  Throw in the fact that families can select the sex of their children, there is an over abundance of young men, not enough brides and a huge problem with violence.  And, of course, child marriages.  Most of the problems in all these countries occur in the rural villages and tribal areas where religion is strong and education weak.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> But in India it's cultural chauvinism, and not the religion, that is, unless you're talking about Indian Muslims, of which there are 300 million.  In their case it's religion, economic, cultural, and educational.
Click to expand...


No, it's not - it's enshrined in the religion in the institution of kanayadan marriage where the husband is an aspect of Vishnu and the daughter is donated to Vishnu.  The younger the virgin the more prized.

Or consider this, rationalizing it in the religion: understanding the concept of child marriage


----------



## Coyote

Roudy said:


> Esmeralda said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> Poverty and lack of education.  That's what it says in the site I read.  The real links in the child bride problem are poverty and lack of education, not religion.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Again, this is not a one size fits all.  *Saudi Arabia, Iran, Iraq, Egypt *are not necessarily "poverty stricken" or have exceptionally low educational levels.  In fact Iran has some of the highest educated among Muslim countries in the region.  Yet, Muslim clerics and the grand ayatollah (people who generally know more about Islam) have said that since child brides are sanctioned by Islam, and since that's what Mohammad did, then so can his followers.
> 
> Therefore, the reasons can be economic, educational, governmental, cultural, and yes, RELIGION.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Your bias is showing.  None of those countries you list are even in the list of Top Twenty countries with the highest rates of child marriage:  http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...cTf1OiqZEebZaFQ&bvm=bv.52288139,d.dmg&cad=rja
> 
> 1      Niger                                    76.6
> 2      Chad                                       71.5
> 3      Bangladesh                               68.7
> 4      Mali                                         65.4
> 5      Guinea                                     64.5
> 6      Central African Republic      57.0
> 7      Nepal                                     56.1
> 8      Mozambique                          55.9
> 9      Uganda                                     54.1
> 10      Burkina Faso                         51.9
> 11      India                                         50.0
> 12      Ethiopia                               49.1
> 13      Liberia                                    48.4
> 14      Yemen                               48.4
> 15      Cameroon                           47.2
> 16      Eritrea                                    47.0
> 17      Malawi                                   46.9
> 18      Nicaragua                            43.3
> 19      Nigeria                                   43.3
> 20      Zambia                                   42.1
> 
> 
> 
> 
> More lipstick on the pig?  LOL
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> In a list of poorest countries in the Middle East, Yemen and Iraq top the list.  Out of 14, Iran is 5th.
> 
> Then look at this list of poorest countries in the world: 20 Poorest Countries In The World - many of them are also in the top twenty list for child marriages.
> 
> And, as an aside - in that list of 20 countries with highest rates we have:
> Muslim: Yemen, Niger, Chad, Bangledesh, Yemen, Burkina Faso, Guinea, Mali
> Christian: Zambia, Nicaragua, Malawi, Cameroon, Liberia, Ethiopia, Uganda, Mozambique, CAR, Eritrea
> Split: Nigeria
> Hindu: India, Nepal
> 
> Roudy, your lipstick job is smeared all over the place.
Click to expand...


----------



## Roudy

Coyote said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Esmeralda said:
> 
> 
> 
> Again, this is not a one size fits all.  *Saudi Arabia, Iran, Iraq, Egypt *are not necessarily "poverty stricken" or have exceptionally low educational levels.  In fact Iran has some of the highest educated among Muslim countries in the region.  Yet, Muslim clerics and the grand ayatollah (people who generally know more about Islam) have said that since child brides are sanctioned by Islam, and since that's what Mohammad did, then so can his followers.
> 
> Therefore, the reasons can be economic, educational, governmental, cultural, and yes, RELIGION.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Your bias is showing.  None of those countries you list are even in the list of Top Twenty countries with the highest rates of child marriage:  http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...cTf1OiqZEebZaFQ&bvm=bv.52288139,d.dmg&cad=rja
> 
> 1      Niger                                    76.6
> 2      Chad                                       71.5
> 3      Bangladesh                               68.7
> 4      Mali                                         65.4
> 5      Guinea                                     64.5
> 6      Central African Republic      57.0
> 7      Nepal                                     56.1
> 8      Mozambique                          55.9
> 9      Uganda                                     54.1
> 10      Burkina Faso                         51.9
> 11      India                                         50.0
> 12      Ethiopia                               49.1
> 13      Liberia                                    48.4
> 14      Yemen                               48.4
> 15      Cameroon                           47.2
> 16      Eritrea                                    47.0
> 17      Malawi                                   46.9
> 18      Nicaragua                            43.3
> 19      Nigeria                                   43.3
> 20      Zambia                                   42.1
> 
> 
> 
> 
> More lipstick on the pig?  LOL
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> In a list of poorest countries in the Middle East, Yemen and Iraq top the list.  Out of 14, Iran is 5th.
> 
> Then look at this list of poorest countries in the world: 20 Poorest Countries In The World - many of them are also in the top twenty list for child marriages.
> 
> And, as an aside - in that list of 20 countries with highest rates we have:
> Muslim: Yemen, Niger, Chad, Bangledesh, Yemen, Burkina Faso, Guinea, Mali
> Christian: Zambia, Nicaragua, Malawi, Cameroon, Liberia, Ethiopia, Uganda, Mozambique, CAR, Eritrea
> Split: Nigeria
> Hindu: India, Nepal
> 
> Roudy, your lipstick job is smeared all over the place.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> We aren't talking about rates only, although that is part of it. It is well documented that Child marriages occur in the West among Muslim communities as well.  What you are also avoiding is that child marriages also occur in countries such as Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, and Iran, and are legal, and religion certainly plays a major role in it.  However if we are talking rates and frequency of child marriage, then again, Muslim majority countries lead the pack.  So, however you cut this cheese, its going to smell bad.
> 
> The Hindu religion isn't the only religion or culture that idolizes "young brides".  However, we have young, and then we have a 54 year old prophet and final messenger of God,  Mohammad, marrying a 9 year old. The difference is its not interpretative, here you have a specific age or milestone where this kind of marriage can be sanctioned by Islam.
> 
> What's even funnier is now, even you yourself are attributing the cause for  child marriages in India to have Hindu religion undertones, which undermines your own argument.
> 
> That's how it worked in the old days, religion was the greatest influence, so it affected culture and in turn culture affected religious practices. As hard as you try, you can't separate the two.
Click to expand...


----------



## Coyote

Roudy said:


> We aren't talking about rates only, although that is part of it. It is well documented that Child marriages occur in the West among Muslim communities as well.



It is also well documented that those are uncommon and occur primarily in new immigrant communities from - guess where?



> What you are also avoiding is that child marriages also occur in countries such as Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, and Iran, and are legal, and religion certainly plays a major role in it.



They do, but to a far less extent and they also occur in many other areas around the world and in different religions as I've repeatedly pointed out.  

Religion may play a factor but it is not the dominant factor and you haven't proved that it is.  What you keep on trying to claim is that in Islamic countries religion is the overriding reason while in other countries, it's something else.  This just doesn't fly since you have countries in Africa side by side with high rates and different religions.



> However if we are talking rates and frequency of child marriage, then again, Muslim majority countries lead the pack.  So, however you cut this cheese, its going to smell bad.






> The Hindu religion isn't the only religion or culture that idolizes "young brides".  However, we have young, and then we have a 54 year old prophet and final messenger of God,  Mohammad, marrying a 9 year old. The difference is its not interpretative, here you have a specific age or milestone where this kind of marriage can be sanctioned by Islam.



You have a prophet that by SOME accounts married a 9 year old and by OTHER accounts, consumated marriage at 16 - you have *by no means a definitive fact *here and by no means is that age an agreed upon marriagable age in all or even most Islamic countries (looking at age of marriage laws).  You keep ignoring that.

The example I gave you was not simply "idolizing" young brides - it was a specific example of child marriage to a god (aspect).



> What's even funnier is now, even you yourself are attributing the cause for  child marriages in India to have Hindu religion undertones, which undermines your own argument.



Not at all.  I have never made the claim that religion has no effect.  My argument is that the effect religion plays is less than some of the other effects such as poverty and that is an argument supported  in the sources I've used.



> That's how it worked in the old days, religion was the greatest influence, so it affected culture and in turn culture affected religious practices. As hard as you try, you can't separate the two.



If the two are that intertwined Roudy (and I agree, they are though child marriages long predated Islam), then why aren't you making the same case for Hindu and Christian countries?  Africa leads the pack in child marriages with by far the most number of countries involved and both Christian and Muslim religions.


----------



## Roudy

Coyote said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> 
> We aren't talking about rates only, although that is part of it. It is well documented that Child marriages occur in the West among Muslim communities as well.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It is also well documented that those are uncommon and occur primarily in new immigrant communities from - guess where?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What you are also avoiding is that child marriages also occur in countries such as Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, and Iran, and are legal, and religion certainly plays a major role in it.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> They do, but to a far less extent and they also occur in many other areas around the world and in different religions as I've repeatedly pointed out.
> 
> Religion may play a factor but it is not the dominant factor and you haven't proved that it is.  What you keep on trying to claim is that in Islamic countries religion is the overriding reason while in other countries, it's something else.  This just doesn't fly since you have countries in Africa side by side with high rates and different religions.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You have a prophet that by SOME accounts married a 9 year old and by OTHER accounts, consumated marriage at 16 - you have *by no means a definitive fact *here and by no means is that age an agreed upon marriagable age in all or even most Islamic countries (looking at age of marriage laws).  You keep ignoring that.
> 
> The example I gave you was not simply "idolizing" young brides - it was a specific example of child marriage to a god (aspect).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What's even funnier is now, even you yourself are attributing the cause for  child marriages in India to have Hindu religion undertones, which undermines your own argument.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Not at all.  I have never made the claim that religion has no effect.  My argument is that the effect religion plays is less than some of the other effects such as poverty and that is an argument supported  in the sources I've used.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That's how it worked in the old days, religion was the greatest influence, so it affected culture and in turn culture affected religious practices. As hard as you try, you can't separate the two.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> If the two are that intertwined Roudy (and I agree, they are though child marriages long predated Islam), then why aren't you making the same case for Hindu and Christian countries?  Africa leads the pack in child marriages with by far the most number of countries involved and both Christian and Muslim religions.
Click to expand...

I don't think child marriage can be directly traced to religion with Christianity, Hinduism or Judaism, the way it can with Islam. And proof of that is the Muslims themselves, and the fact that they cite Mohammad's marriage to Aisha as the reason.  

Again the reason I brought up Iran, Pakistan,  and Saudi Arabia was not because of frequency, but because in those countries child marriage was legalized specifically because of Islam and Mohammad's marriage to a 9 year old. 

Re Aisha's age, perhaps you can tell that to the religious courts and Islamic clerics who claim that Aisha was 9, as justification for child marriage. After all, wouldn't they be the ones who know more about Islam and Mohammad than you and I?  I think a majority of Muslims agree that Mohammad was engaged to Aisha when she was 6 and the marriage was consummated when she was it her 8 or 9 depending on which source you go  by. There is no real dispute as to her age.  Your view is not mainstream at all on this.


----------



## Hossfly

Roudy said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> 
> We aren't talking about rates only, although that is part of it. It is well documented that Child marriages occur in the West among Muslim communities as well.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It is also well documented that those are uncommon and occur primarily in new immigrant communities from - guess where?
> 
> 
> 
> They do, but to a far less extent and they also occur in many other areas around the world and in different religions as I've repeatedly pointed out.
> 
> Religion may play a factor but it is not the dominant factor and you haven't proved that it is.  What you keep on trying to claim is that in Islamic countries religion is the overriding reason while in other countries, it's something else.  This just doesn't fly since you have countries in Africa side by side with high rates and different religions.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You have a prophet that by SOME accounts married a 9 year old and by OTHER accounts, consumated marriage at 16 - you have *by no means a definitive fact *here and by no means is that age an agreed upon marriagable age in all or even most Islamic countries (looking at age of marriage laws).  You keep ignoring that.
> 
> The example I gave you was not simply "idolizing" young brides - it was a specific example of child marriage to a god (aspect).
> 
> 
> 
> Not at all.  I have never made the claim that religion has no effect.  My argument is that the effect religion plays is less than some of the other effects such as poverty and that is an argument supported  in the sources I've used.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That's how it worked in the old days, religion was the greatest influence, so it affected culture and in turn culture affected religious practices. As hard as you try, you can't separate the two.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> If the two are that intertwined Roudy (and I agree, they are though child marriages long predated Islam), then why aren't you making the same case for Hindu and Christian countries?  Africa leads the pack in child marriages with by far the most number of countries involved and both Christian and Muslim religions.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I don't think child marriage can be directly traced to religion with Christianity, Hinduism or Judaism, the way it can with Islam. And proof of that is the Muslims themselves, and the fact that they cite Mohammad's marriage to Aisha as the reason.
> 
> Again the reason I brought up Iran, Pakistan,  and Saudi Arabia was not because of frequency, but because in those countries child marriage was legalized specifically because of Islam and Mohammad's marriage to a 9 year old.
> 
> Re Aisha's age, perhaps you can tell that to the religious courts and Islamic clerics who claim that Aisha was 9, as justification for child marriage. After all, wouldn't they be the ones who know more about Islam and Mohammad than you and I?  I think a majority of Muslims agree that Mohammad was engaged to Aisha when she was 6 and the marriage was consummated when she was it her 8 or 9 depending on which source you go  by. There is no real dispute as to her age.  Your view is not mainstream at all on this.
Click to expand...

I read today that the Yemen legislature has proposed a bill to set marriage at 18 for females in the wake of this tragic incident. I'll post the article when I find it.


----------



## Coyote

Roudy said:


> I don't think child marriage can be directly traced to religion with Christianity, Hinduism or Judaism, the way it can with Islam. And proof of that is the Muslims themselves, and the fact that they cite Mohammad's marriage to Aisha as the reason.



I pointed out exactly how child marriage can be directly traced to religion with Hinduism - very directly. 

Proof is that some Muslims cite Aisha.  I don't disagree there.  But is it a major driver?  Perhaps in some of these countries such as Iran where there are ongoing attempts to lower the marriage age of young girls.  But you make the claim that it is the major cause in all Islamic countries - yet they don't all agree on Aisha's age and they don't all have the same reasons for child marriage.



> Again the reason I brought up Iran, Pakistan,  and Saudi Arabia was not because of frequency, but because in those countries child marriage was legalized specifically because of Islam and Mohammad's marriage to a 9 year old.



Islam might be a bigger factor in those countries you list, but the countries with the largest numbers of child marriages are in Africa where poverty and lack of education and instability are the most frequently cited reasons for child marriages.



> Re Aisha's age, perhaps you can tell that to the religious courts and Islamic clerics who claim that Aisha was 9, as justification for child marriage. After all, wouldn't they be the ones who know more about Islam and Mohammad than you and I?



I would expect a Muslim or someone who has studied Islam and Islamic law to know more than you or I.  I provided a number of MUSLIM sources concerning Aisha's age.  Osomir provided a great deal of information on that as well.



> I think a majority of Muslims agree that Mohammad was engaged to Aisha when she was 6 and the marriage was consummated when she was it her 8 or 9 depending on which source you go  by. There is no real dispute as to her age.  Your view is not mainstream at all on this.



There is plenty of dispute as to her age - I provided evidence of that.  From Muslim sources.

What evidence do you have that the majority think the marriage was consummated at 8 or 9?  Historical facts of the events surrounding her life do not add up to such a young age - as was pointed out.


----------



## Roudy

Hossfly said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> It is also well documented that those are uncommon and occur primarily in new immigrant communities from - guess where?
> 
> 
> 
> They do, but to a far less extent and they also occur in many other areas around the world and in different religions as I've repeatedly pointed out.
> 
> Religion may play a factor but it is not the dominant factor and you haven't proved that it is.  What you keep on trying to claim is that in Islamic countries religion is the overriding reason while in other countries, it's something else.  This just doesn't fly since you have countries in Africa side by side with high rates and different religions.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You have a prophet that by SOME accounts married a 9 year old and by OTHER accounts, consumated marriage at 16 - you have *by no means a definitive fact *here and by no means is that age an agreed upon marriagable age in all or even most Islamic countries (looking at age of marriage laws).  You keep ignoring that.
> 
> The example I gave you was not simply "idolizing" young brides - it was a specific example of child marriage to a god (aspect).
> 
> 
> 
> Not at all.  I have never made the claim that religion has no effect.  My argument is that the effect religion plays is less than some of the other effects such as poverty and that is an argument supported  in the sources I've used.
> 
> 
> 
> If the two are that intertwined Roudy (and I agree, they are though child marriages long predated Islam), then why aren't you making the same case for Hindu and Christian countries?  Africa leads the pack in child marriages with by far the most number of countries involved and both Christian and Muslim religions.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't think child marriage can be directly traced to religion with Christianity, Hinduism or Judaism, the way it can with Islam. And proof of that is the Muslims themselves, and the fact that they cite Mohammad's marriage to Aisha as the reason.
> 
> Again the reason I brought up Iran, Pakistan,  and Saudi Arabia was not because of frequency, but because in those countries child marriage was legalized specifically because of Islam and Mohammad's marriage to a 9 year old.
> 
> Re Aisha's age, perhaps you can tell that to the religious courts and Islamic clerics who claim that Aisha was 9, as justification for child marriage. After all, wouldn't they be the ones who know more about Islam and Mohammad than you and I?  I think a majority of Muslims agree that Mohammad was engaged to Aisha when she was 6 and the marriage was consummated when she was it her 8 or 9 depending on which source you go  by. There is no real dispute as to her age.  Your view is not mainstream at all on this.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I read today that the Yemen legislature has proposed a bill to set marriage at 18 for females in the wake of this tragic incident. I'll post the article when I find it.
Click to expand...

18? Wow, so they're going to force those poor men to marry a bunch of geezers now?  That's a pretty harsh punishment.


----------



## Hossfly

Roudy said:


> Hossfly said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> 
> I don't think child marriage can be directly traced to religion with Christianity, Hinduism or Judaism, the way it can with Islam. And proof of that is the Muslims themselves, and the fact that they cite Mohammad's marriage to Aisha as the reason.
> 
> Again the reason I brought up Iran, Pakistan,  and Saudi Arabia was not because of frequency, but because in those countries child marriage was legalized specifically because of Islam and Mohammad's marriage to a 9 year old.
> 
> Re Aisha's age, perhaps you can tell that to the religious courts and Islamic clerics who claim that Aisha was 9, as justification for child marriage. After all, wouldn't they be the ones who know more about Islam and Mohammad than you and I?  I think a majority of Muslims agree that Mohammad was engaged to Aisha when she was 6 and the marriage was consummated when she was it her 8 or 9 depending on which source you go  by. There is no real dispute as to her age.  Your view is not mainstream at all on this.
> 
> 
> 
> I read today that the Yemen legislature has proposed a bill to set marriage at 18 for females in the wake of this tragic incident. I'll post the article when I find it.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 18? Wow, so they're going to force those poor men to marry a bunch of geezers now?  That's a pretty harsh punishment.
Click to expand...

Found the article.

Yemen Child Marriage Law: Human Rights Minister Wants To Set Minimum Age At 18


----------



## S.J.

He was 53 when he raped her at the age of 9.

Aisha - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


----------



## Roudy

S.J. said:


> He was 53 when he raped her at the age of 9.
> 
> Aisha - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Geezus, but I thought Aisha's age was "disputed" yet your reference makes no mention of this!  If you can't bring the prophet Mohammad to the 6 year old Aisha, then you can bring the 6 year old Aisha to the Mohammad!  

From your reference:

&#8216;&#256;&#8217;ishah bint Ab&#299; Bakr (b. 613/614 C.E.[1][2] &#8211; d. 678 C.E.[3]) (Arabic: &#1593;&#1575;&#1574;&#1588;&#1577;* transliteration: &#8216;&#256;&#8217;ishah, [&#661;a&#720;&#660;i&#643;a], also transcribed as A'ishah, Aisyah, Ayesha, A'isha, Aishat, Aishah, or Aisha) was one of Mu&#7717;ammad's wives.[4] In Islamic writings, her name is thus often prefixed by the title "Mother of the Believers" (Arabic: &#1571;&#1605;&#1617; &#1575;&#1604;&#1605;&#1572;&#1605;&#1606;&#1610;&#1606; umm al-mu'min&#299;n), per the description of Muhammad's wives in the Qur'an.[5][6][7]
Traditional sources state that Aisha was married to Muhammad at the age of six, but she stayed in her parents' home until the age of nine, when the marriage was consummated with Muhammad, then 53, in Medina.

*the kicker:*

There are also various traditions that reveal the mutual affection between Muhammad and Aisha. He would often just sit and watch her and her friends play with dolls, and on occasion he would even join them.

*Aaww ain't that something, he even played dolls with her.  Would that be before or after?*


----------



## Roudy

And here's the India you keep harping about. Problem AGAIN, is with the Indian Muslims!

Child marriage - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Child Marriage Restraint Act, 1929 was passed during the tenure of British rule on pre-partition India. It forbade the marriage of a male younger than 21 or a female younger than 18 for Hindus, Buddhists, Christians and most people of India. *However, this law did not and currently does not apply to India's 165 million Muslim population, and only applies to India's Hindu, Christian, Jain, Sikh and other religious minorities.* This link of law and religion was formalized by the British colonial rule with the Muslim personal laws *codified in the Indian Muslim Personal Law (Shariat) Application Act of 1937. The age at which India's Muslim girl can legally marry, according to this Muslim Personal Law, is 9 years, and can be lower if her guardian (wali) decides she is sexually mature.*[70][71] Over the last 25 years, All India Muslim Personal Law Board and other Muslim civil organizations have actively opposed India-wide laws and enforcement action against child marriages; *they have argued that Indian Muslim families have a religious right to marry a girl when her age is 15 or even 12.*[72] Several states of India claim specially high child marriage rates in their Muslim and tribal communities.[73] India, with a population of over 1.2 billion, has the world's highest total number of child marriages. It is a significant social issue.

Pakistan

Another custom in Pakistan, called swara or vani, involves village elders solving family disputes or settling unpaid debts by marrying off young girls. The average marriage age of swara girls is between 5 and 9 years old.[76][79] Similarly, the custom of watta satta has been cited[80] as a cause of child marriages in Pakistan.



*Sounds like egg, or should I say LIPSTICK on the face!*


----------



## S.J.

Roudy said:


> S.J. said:
> 
> 
> 
> He was 53 when he raped her at the age of 9.
> 
> Aisha - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> 
> 
> Geezus, but I thought Aisha's age was "disputed" yet your reference makes no mention of this!  If you can't bring the prophet Mohammad to the 6 year old Aisha, then you can bring the 6 year old Aisha to the Mohammad!
> 
> From your reference:
> 
> &#256;ishah bint Ab&#299; Bakr (b. 613/614 C.E.[1][2]  d. 678 C.E.[3]) (Arabic: &#1593;&#1575;&#1574;&#1588;&#1577;* transliteration: &#256;ishah, [&#661;a&#720;&#660;i&#643;a], also transcribed as A'ishah, Aisyah, Ayesha, A'isha, Aishat, Aishah, or Aisha) was one of Mu&#7717;ammad's wives.[4] In Islamic writings, her name is thus often prefixed by the title "Mother of the Believers" (Arabic: &#1571;&#1605;&#1617; &#1575;&#1604;&#1605;&#1572;&#1605;&#1606;&#1610;&#1606; umm al-mu'min&#299;n), per the description of Muhammad's wives in the Qur'an.[5][6][7]
> Traditional sources state that Aisha was married to Muhammad at the age of six, but she stayed in her parents' home until the age of nine, when the marriage was consummated with Muhammad, then 53, in Medina.
> 
> *the kicker:*
> 
> There are also various traditions that reveal the mutual affection between Muhammad and Aisha. He would often just sit and watch her and her friends play with dolls, and on occasion he would even join them.
> 
> *Aaww ain't that something, he even played dolls with her.  Would that be before or after?*
Click to expand...

I wonder how many of her friends he raped.


----------



## Coyote

S.J. said:


> He was 53 when he raped her at the age of 9.
> 
> Aisha - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



Yes...like Mary was 12 when God raped her.  (warning - sarcasm alert)

Age of Aisha (ra) at time of marriage
Aisha's Age
The truth about Muhammad and Aisha | Myriam François-Cerrah | Comment is free | theguardian.com
Of Aisha?s age at marriage - DAWN.COM
What was Ayesha&#8217;s (ra) Age at the Time of Her Marriage?



On the Marriage of Aisha | Islamophobia Today eNewspaper


> To be sure Aisha&#8217;s age at the time of her marriage was not an issue or even a point of attack for anti-Islam/Muslim polemicists before the 20th century for the very simple reason that adolescence is a product of the 20th century; Islamic studies professor Jonathan Brown makes this point in response to a question on the topic.
> 
> *Interestingly enough traditional scholarship is not unanimously in agreement about Aisha&#8217;s age despite the report in Bukhari*. Recently, Mohammad Fadel, professor of law at the University of Toronto with a background in Islamic law had a conversation with an eminent Syrian hadith scholar by the name of Salah al-Din al-Idlibi who concludes *based on all the available historical reports that Aisha was 14 *at the time that she contracted her marriage and 18 when she began her married life with Prophet Mohammad. (h/t: Amin S.)


----------



## Sunni Man

The whole "age of Aisha" seems to really bother non muslims and they seem to be obsessed with the issue.

But in the Islamic community it's not a big issue and muslims don't dwell on the topic.  ..


----------



## Coyote

Roudy said:


> And here's the India you keep harping about. Problem AGAIN, is with the Indian Muslims!
> 
> Child marriage - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> The Child Marriage Restraint Act, 1929 was passed during the tenure of British rule on pre-partition India. It forbade the marriage of a male younger than 21 or a female younger than 18 for Hindus, Buddhists, Christians and most people of India. *However, this law did not and currently does not apply to India's 165 million Muslim population, and only applies to India's Hindu, Christian, Jain, Sikh and other religious minorities.* This link of law and religion was formalized by the British colonial rule with the Muslim personal laws *codified in the Indian Muslim Personal Law (Shariat) Application Act of 1937. The age at which India's Muslim girl can legally marry, according to this Muslim Personal Law, is 9 years, and can be lower if her guardian (wali) decides she is sexually mature.*[70][71] Over the last 25 years, All India Muslim Personal Law Board and other Muslim civil organizations have actively opposed India-wide laws and enforcement action against child marriages; *they have argued that Indian Muslim families have a religious right to marry a girl when her age is 15 or even 12.*[72] Several states of India claim specially high child marriage rates in their Muslim and tribal communities.[73] India, with a population of over 1.2 billion, has the world's highest total number of child marriages. It is a significant social issue.
> 
> Pakistan
> 
> Another custom in Pakistan, called swara or vani, involves village elders solving family disputes or settling unpaid debts by marrying off young girls. The average marriage age of swara girls is between 5 and 9 years old.[76][79] Similarly, the custom of watta satta has been cited[80] as a cause of child marriages in Pakistan.
> 
> 
> 
> *Sounds like egg, or should I say LIPSTICK on the face!*




Again, it's not "the Muslims".  Or, at least not in the way you want it to appear.

The practice is more prevalent amongst the Muslims - I don't disagree.  However, that by no means even begins to address the huge numbers in Hindu dominant nations.

India is 80% Hindu and 13% Muslim; Nepal is 81% Hindu and 4% Muslim.  Both those nations are in the top ten for child marriages.  Your own source states:  _India, with a population of over 1.2 billion, has the world's highest total number of child marriages. It is a significant social issue._

You are not going to get that with just or mostly numbers from the Muslim minority.  

Child marriages persist in rural India | Asian Tribune



> These stories illustrate the crime of child marriage. *Although illegal, the practice of child marriage is widespread and accepted by the majority of Indian society, especially in the many rural areas of the country.*
> 
> ...women and girls are the main victims of child marriages. Sati is a Hindu practice which consists of the widowâ&#8364;&#8482;s immolation on her dead husbandâ&#8364;&#8482;s funeral pyre. Women are seen as property with ownership rights to someone else, her parents, her husband or her in-laws. In some cases, husbands sell their wives, even their unmarried daughters, as sexual partners to other men.
> 
> *Religion plays a key role in such harmful traditions and practices*. Akhai Teej is an annual festival and an auspicious day for marriage in India. It is not uncommon for political leaders and government officials to attend these ceremonies to bless newly- married children and impart legitimacy to the practice. The society in turn, instead of playing a watchdog role, is an enthusiastic participant in a deliberate perpetuation of entrenched interests, including property and social considerations, all which make child marriages so



Akhai Teej is a Hindu festival. 



> The practice is particularly rampant *in the populous northern belt where child marriages are most deeply rooted: Rajasthan, Madhya Pradesh, Uttar Pradesh, Bihar and West Bengal, with a combined population of 420 million, about 40 percent of all India.* In Rajasthan alone, 56% of the women have been married before they were 15.



Rajasthan is 89% Hindu, Madhya Pradesh (91% Hindu), Uttar Pradesh (80% Hindu), Bihar (83% Hindu), West Bengal (73%, with the largest Muslim minority of these districts at 25%).

So...to clarify, here is my position, which I've modified slightly:

Child marriages are a serious issue in much of the developing world.

The causes are various and often intertwined: poverty, lack of education, culture, political instability and war, religious values, weak governmental authority.

I concede religion may play a greater role in child marriages when it comes to Muslim and Hindu communities in certain parts of the world. 

When it comes to Islam, however - there is not a unified opinion among scholars as to the propriety of child marriages or the age of Aisha at marriage and consumation (I've supported this with multiple links).  While Aisha's age is undoubtedly used in some regions to justify child marriages it is also bound up in cultural traditions and far more prevalent in rural, poorly educated and poor regions then in better educated urban areas regardless of religion.  Ignorance, superstition, lack of women's rights (which extends to girl children) often go hand in hand with the most fundamentalist forms of religion.

Given the above, I strongly condemn those who attempt to smear all or even most of Islam and Muslims as a group as being supporters of pedophilia and child marriages. I firmly believe those who do can accurately be labeled "hate groups" who are less interested in resolving the issue then in demonizing Islam since, at least as is shown in discussions thus far - they largely discount what happens in the non-Muslim world and non-religious reasons for child marriages..

Wipe off the egg before it dries


----------



## Jos

> In Jewish Ashkenazi communities in the Middle Ages, girls were married off very young.[81] Despite the young threshold for marriage a large age gap between the spouses was opposed,[82] and, in particular, marrying one's young daughter to an old man was declared as reprehensible as forcing her into prostitution.[83] Child marriage was possible in Judaism due to the very low marriageable age for girls. A ketannah (literally meaning "little [one]") was any girl between the age of 3 years and that of 12 years plus one day


Jewish views on marriage - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


----------



## Coyote

Hossfly said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> It is also well documented that those are uncommon and occur primarily in new immigrant communities from - guess where?
> 
> 
> 
> They do, but to a far less extent and they also occur in many other areas around the world and in different religions as I've repeatedly pointed out.
> 
> Religion may play a factor but it is not the dominant factor and you haven't proved that it is.  What you keep on trying to claim is that in Islamic countries religion is the overriding reason while in other countries, it's something else.  This just doesn't fly since you have countries in Africa side by side with high rates and different religions.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You have a prophet that by SOME accounts married a 9 year old and by OTHER accounts, consumated marriage at 16 - you have *by no means a definitive fact *here and by no means is that age an agreed upon marriagable age in all or even most Islamic countries (looking at age of marriage laws).  You keep ignoring that.
> 
> The example I gave you was not simply "idolizing" young brides - it was a specific example of child marriage to a god (aspect).
> 
> 
> 
> Not at all.  I have never made the claim that religion has no effect.  My argument is that the effect religion plays is less than some of the other effects such as poverty and that is an argument supported  in the sources I've used.
> 
> 
> 
> If the two are that intertwined Roudy (and I agree, they are though child marriages long predated Islam), then why aren't you making the same case for Hindu and Christian countries?  Africa leads the pack in child marriages with by far the most number of countries involved and both Christian and Muslim religions.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't think child marriage can be directly traced to religion with Christianity, Hinduism or Judaism, the way it can with Islam. And proof of that is the Muslims themselves, and the fact that they cite Mohammad's marriage to Aisha as the reason.
> 
> Again the reason I brought up Iran, Pakistan,  and Saudi Arabia was not because of frequency, but because in those countries child marriage was legalized specifically because of Islam and Mohammad's marriage to a 9 year old.
> 
> Re Aisha's age, perhaps you can tell that to the religious courts and Islamic clerics who claim that Aisha was 9, as justification for child marriage. After all, wouldn't they be the ones who know more about Islam and Mohammad than you and I?  I think a majority of Muslims agree that Mohammad was engaged to Aisha when she was 6 and the marriage was consummated when she was it her 8 or 9 depending on which source you go  by. There is no real dispute as to her age.  Your view is not mainstream at all on this.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I read today that the Yemen legislature has proposed a bill to set marriage at 18 for females in the wake of this tragic incident. I'll post the article when I find it.
Click to expand...


That's a good thing.  But I seriously doubt that government has the strength to enforce it.


----------



## Roudy

Coyote said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> 
> And here's the India you keep harping about. Problem AGAIN, is with the Indian Muslims!
> 
> Child marriage - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> The Child Marriage Restraint Act, 1929 was passed during the tenure of British rule on pre-partition India. It forbade the marriage of a male younger than 21 or a female younger than 18 for Hindus, Buddhists, Christians and most people of India. *However, this law did not and currently does not apply to India's 165 million Muslim population, and only applies to India's Hindu, Christian, Jain, Sikh and other religious minorities.* This link of law and religion was formalized by the British colonial rule with the Muslim personal laws *codified in the Indian Muslim Personal Law (Shariat) Application Act of 1937. The age at which India's Muslim girl can legally marry, according to this Muslim Personal Law, is 9 years, and can be lower if her guardian (wali) decides she is sexually mature.*[70][71] Over the last 25 years, All India Muslim Personal Law Board and other Muslim civil organizations have actively opposed India-wide laws and enforcement action against child marriages; *they have argued that Indian Muslim families have a religious right to marry a girl when her age is 15 or even 12.*[72] Several states of India claim specially high child marriage rates in their Muslim and tribal communities.[73] India, with a population of over 1.2 billion, has the world's highest total number of child marriages. It is a significant social issue.
> 
> Pakistan
> 
> Another custom in Pakistan, called swara or vani, involves village elders solving family disputes or settling unpaid debts by marrying off young girls. The average marriage age of swara girls is between 5 and 9 years old.[76][79] Similarly, the custom of watta satta has been cited[80] as a cause of child marriages in Pakistan.
> 
> 
> 
> *Sounds like egg, or should I say LIPSTICK on the face!*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Again, it's not "the Muslims".  Or, at least not in the way you want it to appear.
> 
> The practice is more prevalent amongst the Muslims - I don't disagree.  However, that by no means even begins to address the huge numbers in Hindu dominant nations.
> 
> India is 80% Hindu and 13% Muslim; Nepal is 81% Hindu and 4% Muslim.  Both those nations are in the top ten for child marriages.  Your own source states:  _India, with a population of over 1.2 billion, has the world's highest total number of child marriages. It is a significant social issue._
> 
> You are not going to get that with just or mostly numbers from the Muslim minority.
> 
> Child marriages persist in rural India | Asian Tribune
> 
> 
> 
> 
> These stories illustrate the crime of child marriage. *Although illegal, the practice of child marriage is widespread and accepted by the majority of Indian society, especially in the many rural areas of the country.*
> 
> ...women and girls are the main victims of child marriages. Sati is a Hindu practice which consists of the widowâ&#8364;&#8482;s immolation on her dead husbandâ&#8364;&#8482;s funeral pyre. Women are seen as property with ownership rights to someone else, her parents, her husband or her in-laws. In some cases, husbands sell their wives, even their unmarried daughters, as sexual partners to other men.
> 
> *Religion plays a key role in such harmful traditions and practices*. Akhai Teej is an annual festival and an auspicious day for marriage in India. It is not uncommon for political leaders and government officials to attend these ceremonies to bless newly- married children and impart legitimacy to the practice. The society in turn, instead of playing a watchdog role, is an enthusiastic participant in a deliberate perpetuation of entrenched interests, including property and social considerations, all which make child marriages so
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Akhai Teej is a Hindu festival.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The practice is particularly rampant *in the populous northern belt where child marriages are most deeply rooted: Rajasthan, Madhya Pradesh, Uttar Pradesh, Bihar and West Bengal, with a combined population of 420 million, about 40 percent of all India.* In Rajasthan alone, 56% of the women have been married before they were 15.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Rajasthan is 89% Hindu, Madhya Pradesh (91% Hindu), Uttar Pradesh (80% Hindu), Bihar (83% Hindu), West Bengal (73%, with the largest Muslim minority of these districts at 25%).
> 
> So...to clarify, here is my position, which I've modified slightly:
> 
> Child marriages are a serious issue in much of the developing world.
> 
> The causes are various and often intertwined: poverty, lack of education, culture, political instability and war, religious values, weak governmental authority.
> 
> I concede religion may play a greater role in child marriages when it comes to Muslim and Hindu communities in certain parts of the world.
> 
> When it comes to Islam, however - there is not a unified opinion among scholars as to the propriety of child marriages or the age of Aisha at marriage and consumation (I've supported this with multiple links).  While Aisha's age is undoubtedly used in some regions to justify child marriages it is also bound up in cultural traditions and far more prevalent in rural, poorly educated and poor regions then in better educated urban areas regardless of religion.  Ignorance, superstition, lack of women's rights (which extends to girl children) often go hand in hand with the most fundamentalist forms of religion.
> 
> Given the above, I strongly condemn those who attempt to smear all or even most of Islam and Muslims as a group as being supporters of pedophilia and child marriages. I firmly believe those who do can accurately be labeled "hate groups" who are less interested in resolving the issue then in demonizing Islam since, at least as is shown in discussions thus far - they largely discount what happens in the non-Muslim world and non-religious reasons for child marriages..
> 
> Wipe off the egg before it dries
Click to expand...

This is called "you can run but you can't hide" syndrome.  I even showed you that in countries where you yourself cited as examples of child marriages in other cultures and religions, it is the Muslims in that community that have the biggest problem with child marriage.  At what point do you conceed that you lost this argument, not once, but many times.  Yes, it's prevalent among Muslims, and yes, Islam has a big influence on why it's so prevalent.  Accept it and move on.  You are too committed to defending something with bogus and controversial "facts" because of your own bias.  However in the process you aren't doing a favor to yourself, or the people you think you're defending.  This strategy isn't working for you.

Read what I posted again:

The Child Marriage Restraint Act, 1929 was passed during the tenure of British rule on pre-partition India.* It forbade the marriage of a male younger than 21 or a female younger than 18 for Hindus, Buddhists, Christians and most people of India. However, this law did not and currently does not apply to India's 165 million Muslim population, and only applies to India's Hindu, Christian, Jain, Sikh and other religious minorities.* This link of law and religion was formalized by the British colonial rule with the Muslim personal laws codified in the Indian Muslim Personal Law (Shariat) Application Act of 1937. *The age at which India's Muslim girl can legally marry, according to this Muslim Personal Law, is 9 years, and can be lower if her guardian (wali) decides she is sexually mature.[*70][71] Over the last 25 years, All India Muslim Personal Law Board and other Muslim civil organizations have actively opposed India-wide laws and enforcement action against child marriages; they have argued that Indian Muslim families have a religious right to marry a girl when her age is 15 or even 12.

*Gee, 9 years?  Now where did we here that magical age before?  Perhaps it was the age at which Aisha was married to prophet Mohammad?  Can we make an educated guess here?  What do you think?  No, no, of course not, Islam's influence is minimal here.  LOL *


----------



## Roudy

Jos said:


> In Jewish Ashkenazi communities in the Middle Ages, girls were married off very young.[81] Despite the young threshold for marriage a large age gap between the spouses was opposed,[82] and, in particular, marrying one's young daughter to an old man was declared as reprehensible as forcing her into prostitution.[83] Child marriage was possible in Judaism due to the very low marriageable age for girls. A ketannah (literally meaning "little [one]") was any girl between the age of 3 years and that of 12 years plus one day
> 
> 
> 
> Jewish views on marriage - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Click to expand...

Medieval times?  pfffft....problem is Muslims are still living in those times, and insist on dragging the rest of the world back there with them.  If necessary, by violent means.


----------



## Jos

> The marriagable age, in Judaism, is highly gender-specific. Although boys were regarded, by classical rabbinic literature, as sexual beings once they had reached 9 years of age[2], girls were regarded as sexual beings from the age of just 3. According to the Talmud, *it was permissible for an adult male to have sexual intercourse with a 3 year old girl, if she was maritally single*


Age of majority in Judaism - Religion-wiki


----------



## Jos

Roudy said:


> Jos said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In Jewish Ashkenazi communities in the Middle Ages, girls were married off very young.[81] Despite the young threshold for marriage a large age gap between the spouses was opposed,[82] and, in particular, marrying one's young daughter to an old man was declared as reprehensible as forcing her into prostitution.[83] Child marriage was possible in Judaism due to the very low marriageable age for girls. A ketannah (literally meaning "little [one]") was any girl between the age of 3 years and that of 12 years plus one day
> 
> 
> 
> Jewish views on marriage - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Medieval times?  pfffft....problem is Muslims are still living in those times, and insist on dragging the rest of the world back there with them.  If necessary, by violent means.
Click to expand...


It's you who keeps referring to to pre-Medieval times, with your quotes on Mohammed PBUH


----------



## Roudy

Jos said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jos said:
> 
> 
> 
> Jewish views on marriage - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> 
> 
> Medieval times?  pfffft....problem is Muslims are still living in those times, and insist on dragging the rest of the world back there with them.  If necessary, by violent means.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> It's you who keeps referring to to pre-Medieval times, with your quotes on Mohammed PBUH
Click to expand...

Nope.  You brought up a reference to "Jewish Ashkenazi communities in the Middle Ages".  We are talking child marriages TODAY, moron.  

That was a pretty lame attempt.  Try again, Chos.  LOL


----------



## Roudy

Jos said:


> The marriagable age, in Judaism, is highly gender-specific. Although boys were regarded, by classical rabbinic literature, as sexual beings once they had reached 9 years of age[2], girls were regarded as sexual beings from the age of just 3. According to the Talmud, *it was permissible for an adult male to have sexual intercourse with a 3 year old girl, if she was maritally single*
> 
> 
> 
> Age of majority in Judaism - Religion-wiki
Click to expand...

Nice piece of garbage you posted there.  Somehow I must have missed in the list of countries and people that practice child marriage today, there being a reference to Jews and Israel.

<Pssssssssssssss>  Sound of a chos (silent fart) escaping from Jos' aka Chos' brain.  

Try again.  LOL


----------



## Jos

Roudy said:


> Jos said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Medieval times?  pfffft....problem is Muslims are still living in those times, and insist on dragging the rest of the world back there with them.  If necessary, by violent means.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's you who keeps referring to to pre-Medieval times, with your quotes on Mohammed PBUH
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Nope.  You brought up a reference to "Jewish Ashkenazi communities in the Middle Ages".  We are talking child marriages TODAY, moron.
> 
> That was a pretty lame attempt.  Try again, Chos.  LOL
Click to expand...


If "We are talking child marriages TODAY" why do you keep bringing up Mohamed? (PBUH)


----------



## Uncensored2008

Jos said:


> If "We are talking child marriages TODAY" why do you keep bringing up Mohamed? (PBUH)



So, you've stopped lying and claiming you're not Muslim?

And wouldn't a better tag be Muhammad, (MTFBIH?)

*** - May The Fucker Burn In Hell.

I don't actually believe in hell, but if there were one, Muhammad would be there!


----------



## Coyote

Roudy said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> 
> And here's the India you keep harping about. Problem AGAIN, is with the Indian Muslims!
> 
> Child marriage - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> The Child Marriage Restraint Act, 1929 was passed during the tenure of British rule on pre-partition India. It forbade the marriage of a male younger than 21 or a female younger than 18 for Hindus, Buddhists, Christians and most people of India. *However, this law did not and currently does not apply to India's 165 million Muslim population, and only applies to India's Hindu, Christian, Jain, Sikh and other religious minorities.* This link of law and religion was formalized by the British colonial rule with the Muslim personal laws *codified in the Indian Muslim Personal Law (Shariat) Application Act of 1937. The age at which India's Muslim girl can legally marry, according to this Muslim Personal Law, is 9 years, and can be lower if her guardian (wali) decides she is sexually mature.*[70][71] Over the last 25 years, All India Muslim Personal Law Board and other Muslim civil organizations have actively opposed India-wide laws and enforcement action against child marriages; *they have argued that Indian Muslim families have a religious right to marry a girl when her age is 15 or even 12.*[72] Several states of India claim specially high child marriage rates in their Muslim and tribal communities.[73] India, with a population of over 1.2 billion, has the world's highest total number of child marriages. It is a significant social issue.
> 
> Pakistan
> 
> Another custom in Pakistan, called swara or vani, involves village elders solving family disputes or settling unpaid debts by marrying off young girls. The average marriage age of swara girls is between 5 and 9 years old.[76][79] Similarly, the custom of watta satta has been cited[80] as a cause of child marriages in Pakistan.
> 
> 
> 
> *Sounds like egg, or should I say LIPSTICK on the face!*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Again, it's not "the Muslims".  Or, at least not in the way you want it to appear.
> 
> The practice is more prevalent amongst the Muslims - I don't disagree.  However, that by no means even begins to address the huge numbers in Hindu dominant nations.
> 
> India is 80% Hindu and 13% Muslim; Nepal is 81% Hindu and 4% Muslim.  Both those nations are in the top ten for child marriages.  Your own source states:  _India, with a population of over 1.2 billion, has the world's highest total number of child marriages. It is a significant social issue._
> 
> You are not going to get that with just or mostly numbers from the Muslim minority.
> 
> Child marriages persist in rural India | Asian Tribune
> 
> 
> 
> Akhai Teej is a Hindu festival.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The practice is particularly rampant *in the populous northern belt where child marriages are most deeply rooted: Rajasthan, Madhya Pradesh, Uttar Pradesh, Bihar and West Bengal, with a combined population of 420 million, about 40 percent of all India.* In Rajasthan alone, 56% of the women have been married before they were 15.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Rajasthan is 89% Hindu, Madhya Pradesh (91% Hindu), Uttar Pradesh (80% Hindu), Bihar (83% Hindu), West Bengal (73%, with the largest Muslim minority of these districts at 25%).
> 
> So...to clarify, here is my position, which I've modified slightly:
> 
> Child marriages are a serious issue in much of the developing world.
> 
> The causes are various and often intertwined: poverty, lack of education, culture, political instability and war, religious values, weak governmental authority.
> 
> I concede religion may play a greater role in child marriages when it comes to Muslim and Hindu communities in certain parts of the world.
> 
> When it comes to Islam, however - there is not a unified opinion among scholars as to the propriety of child marriages or the age of Aisha at marriage and consumation (I've supported this with multiple links).  While Aisha's age is undoubtedly used in some regions to justify child marriages it is also bound up in cultural traditions and far more prevalent in rural, poorly educated and poor regions then in better educated urban areas regardless of religion.  Ignorance, superstition, lack of women's rights (which extends to girl children) often go hand in hand with the most fundamentalist forms of religion.
> 
> Given the above, I strongly condemn those who attempt to smear all or even most of Islam and Muslims as a group as being supporters of pedophilia and child marriages. I firmly believe those who do can accurately be labeled "hate groups" who are less interested in resolving the issue then in demonizing Islam since, at least as is shown in discussions thus far - they largely discount what happens in the non-Muslim world and non-religious reasons for child marriages..
> 
> Wipe off the egg before it dries
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> This is called "you can run but you can't hide" syndrome.  I even showed you that in countries where you yourself cited as examples of child marriages in other cultures and religions, it is the Muslims in that community that have the biggest problem with child marriage.  At what point do you conceed that you lost this argument, not once, but many times.  Yes, it's prevalent among Muslims, and yes, Islam has a big influence on why it's so prevalent.  Accept it and move on.  You are too committed to defending something with bogus and controversial "facts" because of your own bias.  However in the process you aren't doing a favor to yourself, or the people you think you're defending.  This strategy isn't working for you.
> 
> Read what I posted again:
> 
> The Child Marriage Restraint Act, 1929 was passed during the tenure of British rule on pre-partition India.* It forbade the marriage of a male younger than 21 or a female younger than 18 for Hindus, Buddhists, Christians and most people of India. However, this law did not and currently does not apply to India's 165 million Muslim population, and only applies to India's Hindu, Christian, Jain, Sikh and other religious minorities.* This link of law and religion was formalized by the British colonial rule with the Muslim personal laws codified in the Indian Muslim Personal Law (Shariat) Application Act of 1937. *The age at which India's Muslim girl can legally marry, according to this Muslim Personal Law, is 9 years, and can be lower if her guardian (wali) decides she is sexually mature.[*70][71] Over the last 25 years, All India Muslim Personal Law Board and other Muslim civil organizations have actively opposed India-wide laws and enforcement action against child marriages; they have argued that Indian Muslim families have a religious right to marry a girl when her age is 15 or even 12.
> 
> *Gee, 9 years?  Now where did we here that magical age before?  Perhaps it was the age at which Aisha was married to prophet Mohammad?  Can we make an educated guess here?  What do you think?  No, no, of course not, Islam's influence is minimal here.  LOL *
Click to expand...


Roudy, I repeatedly showed you that *the simple math and the demographics do not fit your claims when it comes to India and Nepa*l, two of the nations in the top ten.  You rely on one section of a Wikipedia article citing a law on which to base your claim and ignore everything else.    

I also showed you it is hugely prevalent in Africa - again, top of the stats in nations (ten worst) are a mixture Muslim, Christian, and Hindu.  You ignore this.

You ignore everything that doesn't make it all Islam.


----------



## S.J.

Sunni Man said:


> The whole "age of Aisha" seems to really bother non muslims and they seem to be obsessed with the issue.
> 
> But in the Islamic community it's not a big issue and muslims don't dwell on the topic.  ..


Thank you for confirming that muslims are not concerned with pedophilia while the rest of the world is.


----------



## Sunni Man

S.J. said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> 
> The whole "age of Aisha" seems to really bother non muslims and they seem to be obsessed with the issue.
> 
> But in the Islamic community it's not a big issue and muslims don't dwell on the topic.  ..
> 
> 
> 
> Thank you for confirming that muslims are not concerned with pedophilia while the rest of the world is.
Click to expand...

Tell ya what.........why don't you mind your own business and worry about issues that directly affect you.

And we will address the issues that affect us. 

Deal?   ...


----------



## S.J.

Sunni Man said:


> S.J. said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> 
> The whole "age of Aisha" seems to really bother non muslims and they seem to be obsessed with the issue.
> 
> But in the Islamic community it's not a big issue and muslims don't dwell on the topic.  ..
> 
> 
> 
> Thank you for confirming that muslims are not concerned with pedophilia while the rest of the world is.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Tell ya what.........why don't you mind your own business and worry about issues that directly affect you.
> 
> And we will address the issues that affect us.
> 
> Deal?   ...
Click to expand...

Because babies can't defend themselves from perverts and it's every civilized person's duty to try to stop child abuse.  I guess you don't understand that concept.


----------



## Sunni Man

S.J. said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> S.J. said:
> 
> 
> 
> Thank you for confirming that muslims are not concerned with pedophilia while the rest of the world is.
> 
> 
> 
> Tell ya what.........why don't you mind your own business and worry about issues that directly affect you.
> 
> And we will address the issues that affect us.
> 
> Deal?   ...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Because babies can't defend themselves from perverts and it's every civilized person's *duty* to try to stop child abuse.
Click to expand...

What makes it your "duty" an who appointed you as the world's policeman??  ..


----------



## SherriMunnerlyn

Uncensored2008 said:


> Jos said:
> 
> 
> 
> If "We are talking child marriages TODAY" why do you keep bringing up Mohamed? (PBUH)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So, you've stopped lying and claiming you're not Muslim?
> 
> And wouldn't a better tag be Muhammad, (MTFBIH?)
> 
> *** - May The Fucker Burn In Hell.
> 
> I don't actually believe in hell, but if there were one, Muhammad would be there!
Click to expand...


You really should do something about all that Hate, it is not good for a person. 

Most people living in todays world do not marry children, whatever religion they are.

In the past, things were different than today, there were different morals. 

Just read The Old Testament in The Bible, you read stories of daughters sleeping with their fathers (the story of Dinah and Lot), brothers killing each other (the story of Cain and Abel), men prepared to kill their children (the story of Abraham and Isaac), cousins married cousins (Mary and Joseph), a brother and sister marrying each other (Abraham and Sarah), etc.


----------



## Roudy

Jos said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jos said:
> 
> 
> 
> It's you who keeps referring to to pre-Medieval times, with your quotes on Mohammed PBUH
> 
> 
> 
> Nope.  You brought up a reference to "Jewish Ashkenazi communities in the Middle Ages".  We are talking child marriages TODAY, moron.
> 
> That was a pretty lame attempt.  Try again, Chos.  LOL
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> If "We are talking child marriages TODAY" why do you keep bringing up Mohamed? (PBUH)
Click to expand...

Because Muslims use Mohammad's marriage to Aisha as the reason for being able to marry 9 year olds. DUFUS.


----------



## Roudy

uncensored2008 said:


> jos said:
> 
> 
> 
> if "we are talking child marriages today" why do you keep bringing up mohamed? (pbuh)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> so, you've stopped lying and claiming you're not muslim?
> 
> And wouldn't a better tag be muhammad, (mtfbih?)
> 
> *** - may the fucker burn in hell.
> 
> I don't actually believe in hell, but if there were one, muhammad would be there!
Click to expand...

pbuh. Lol.


----------



## Roudy

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> Uncensored2008 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jos said:
> 
> 
> 
> If "We are talking child marriages TODAY" why do you keep bringing up Mohamed? (PBUH)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So, you've stopped lying and claiming you're not Muslim?
> 
> And wouldn't a better tag be Muhammad, (MTFBIH?)
> 
> *** - May The Fucker Burn In Hell.
> 
> I don't actually believe in hell, but if there were one, Muhammad would be there!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You really should do something about all that Hate, it is not good for a person.
> 
> Most people living in todays world do not marry children, whatever religion they are.
> 
> In the past, things were different than today, there were different morals.
> 
> Just read The Old Testament in The Bible, you read stories of daughters sleeping with their fathers (the story of Dinah and Lot), brothers killing each other (the story of Cain and Abel), men prepared to kill their children (the story of Abraham and Isaac), cousins married cousins (Mary and Joseph), a brother and sister marrying each other (Abraham and Sarah), etc.
Click to expand...

Speak to yourself Jew hater who spends most of her living breathing hours spouting lies and hate about Jews and Israel. Gollee Gee, talk about denial.


----------



## Roudy

Coyote said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> Again, it's not "the Muslims".  Or, at least not in the way you want it to appear.
> 
> The practice is more prevalent amongst the Muslims - I don't disagree.  However, that by no means even begins to address the huge numbers in Hindu dominant nations.
> 
> India is 80% Hindu and 13% Muslim; Nepal is 81% Hindu and 4% Muslim.  Both those nations are in the top ten for child marriages.  Your own source states:  _India, with a population of over 1.2 billion, has the world's highest total number of child marriages. It is a significant social issue._
> 
> You are not going to get that with just or mostly numbers from the Muslim minority.
> 
> Child marriages persist in rural India | Asian Tribune
> 
> 
> 
> Akhai Teej is a Hindu festival.
> 
> 
> 
> Rajasthan is 89% Hindu, Madhya Pradesh (91% Hindu), Uttar Pradesh (80% Hindu), Bihar (83% Hindu), West Bengal (73%, with the largest Muslim minority of these districts at 25%).
> 
> So...to clarify, here is my position, which I've modified slightly:
> 
> Child marriages are a serious issue in much of the developing world.
> 
> The causes are various and often intertwined: poverty, lack of education, culture, political instability and war, religious values, weak governmental authority.
> 
> I concede religion may play a greater role in child marriages when it comes to Muslim and Hindu communities in certain parts of the world.
> 
> When it comes to Islam, however - there is not a unified opinion among scholars as to the propriety of child marriages or the age of Aisha at marriage and consumation (I've supported this with multiple links).  While Aisha's age is undoubtedly used in some regions to justify child marriages it is also bound up in cultural traditions and far more prevalent in rural, poorly educated and poor regions then in better educated urban areas regardless of religion.  Ignorance, superstition, lack of women's rights (which extends to girl children) often go hand in hand with the most fundamentalist forms of religion.
> 
> Given the above, I strongly condemn those who attempt to smear all or even most of Islam and Muslims as a group as being supporters of pedophilia and child marriages. I firmly believe those who do can accurately be labeled "hate groups" who are less interested in resolving the issue then in demonizing Islam since, at least as is shown in discussions thus far - they largely discount what happens in the non-Muslim world and non-religious reasons for child marriages..
> 
> Wipe off the egg before it dries
> 
> 
> 
> This is called "you can run but you can't hide" syndrome.  I even showed you that in countries where you yourself cited as examples of child marriages in other cultures and religions, it is the Muslims in that community that have the biggest problem with child marriage.  At what point do you conceed that you lost this argument, not once, but many times.  Yes, it's prevalent among Muslims, and yes, Islam has a big influence on why it's so prevalent.  Accept it and move on.  You are too committed to defending something with bogus and controversial "facts" because of your own bias.  However in the process you aren't doing a favor to yourself, or the people you think you're defending.  This strategy isn't working for you.
> 
> Read what I posted again:
> 
> The Child Marriage Restraint Act, 1929 was passed during the tenure of British rule on pre-partition India.* It forbade the marriage of a male younger than 21 or a female younger than 18 for Hindus, Buddhists, Christians and most people of India. However, this law did not and currently does not apply to India's 165 million Muslim population, and only applies to India's Hindu, Christian, Jain, Sikh and other religious minorities.* This link of law and religion was formalized by the British colonial rule with the Muslim personal laws codified in the Indian Muslim Personal Law (Shariat) Application Act of 1937. *The age at which India's Muslim girl can legally marry, according to this Muslim Personal Law, is 9 years, and can be lower if her guardian (wali) decides she is sexually mature.[*70][71] Over the last 25 years, All India Muslim Personal Law Board and other Muslim civil organizations have actively opposed India-wide laws and enforcement action against child marriages; they have argued that Indian Muslim families have a religious right to marry a girl when her age is 15 or even 12.
> 
> *Gee, 9 years?  Now where did we here that magical age before?  Perhaps it was the age at which Aisha was married to prophet Mohammad?  Can we make an educated guess here?  What do you think?  No, no, of course not, Islam's influence is minimal here.  LOL *
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Roudy, I repeatedly showed you that *the simple math and the demographics do not fit your claims when it comes to India and Nepa*l, two of the nations in the top ten.  You rely on one section of a Wikipedia article citing a law on which to base your claim and ignore everything else.
> 
> I also showed you it is hugely prevalent in Africa - again, top of the stats in nations (ten worst) are a mixture Muslim, Christian, and Hindu.  You ignore this.
> 
> You ignore everything that doesn't make it all Islam.
Click to expand...

Again I used your India example and its the Muslim Indians that have the biggest problem wi child marriages. In fact all the other Indians have conceded to stop doing it, except for Muslims. And they cite RELIGION as their reason for it. 

At what point will bells go off in your mind, and when will you run out of lipstick?  LOL


----------



## SherriMunnerlyn

Moonglow said:


> SANAA (Reuters) - An eight-year-old Yemeni girl died of internal bleeding on her wedding night after marrying a man five times her age, a social activist and two local residents said, in a case that has caused an outcry in the media and revived debate about child brides.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "On the wedding night and after intercourse, she suffered from bleeding and uterine rupture which caused her death," Othman told Reuters. "They took her to a clinic but the medics couldn't save her life."
> 
> Othman said authorities had not taken any action against the girl's family or her husband.t
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Many poor families in Yemen marry off young daughters to save on the costs of bringing up a child and earn extra money from the dowry given to the girl.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> This is very wrong and needs to stop.
Click to expand...



Link?


----------



## SherriMunnerlyn

"Yemen's human rights minister has said she will press for the minimum age of marriage to be set at 18, after the reported death of a young girl on the first night of her marriage.

Eight-year-old Rawan was said to have died last week from internal bleeding after sexual intercourse, after having been married to a man in his 40s in the northeastern province of Hajja.

The provincial governor, however, on Saturday denied the reports that Rawan had died.


If the case was confirmed and covered up, then the crime would be more serious.

Huriya Mashhoor told the AFP news agency she wanted to revive a bill that has lain dormant since 2009, which would have set the minimum age for marriage at 17, and amend it to raise the age to 18.

"We are asking to fix the legal age for marriage at 18, as Yemen is a signatory to the international conventions on children's rights," she said.

Mashhoor spoke a day after the government formed a committee to investigate the reports of the girl's death.

The governor of Hajja province told official news agency SABA that Rawan was still alive.

Ali al-Qaissi said "the young girl Rawan Abdo Hattan is still alive and normally lives with her family who, in turn, deny the whole thing".

But he added that "the young girl is currently in a social protection centre after undergoing physical and psychological tests in a public hospital" in the area."

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/2013/09/201391413182157493.html


----------



## SherriMunnerlyn

A picture of 10-year-old Sally trying on her wedding dress. Beaten, drugged and raped, Sally won a divorce from Nabil recently after her story made headlines in local media and became the focus of a national debate that has polarised Yemeni society. [Credit: Hugh Macleod

Sally's story - Al Jazeera English


----------



## Roudy

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> A picture of 10-year-old Sally trying on her wedding dress. Beaten, drugged and raped, Sally won a divorce from Nabil recently after her story made headlines in local media and became the focus of a national debate that has polarised Yemeni society. [Credit: Hugh Macleod
> 
> Sally's story - Al Jazeera English


You haven't been following this conversation much have you?  Or perhaps those voices in your head keep you too busy to pay attention to e real world. 

Nobody claiming that child marriage does not occur in other societies or countries, just that the prevalence is highest among MUSLIMS, and the reason for it is ISLAM, who's prophet Mohammad, married a 9 year old.


----------



## SherriMunnerlyn

Roudy said:


> SherriMunnerlyn said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A picture of 10-year-old Sally trying on her wedding dress. Beaten, drugged and raped, Sally won a divorce from Nabil recently after her story made headlines in local media and became the focus of a national debate that has polarised Yemeni society. [Credit: Hugh Macleod
> 
> Sally's story - Al Jazeera English
> 
> 
> 
> You haven't been following this conversation much have you?  Or perhaps those voices in your head keep you too busy to pay attention to e real world.
> 
> Nobody claiming that child marriage does not occur in other societies or countries, just that the prevalence is highest among MUSLIMS, and the reason for it is ISLAM, who's prophet Mohammad, married a 9 year old.
Click to expand...


You are obviously not reading my post or the article I provided a link for or the OP. None of those address the issues you are addressing. All I did in my post was address the story of a child bride named Sally. This is a real story, of a real person, who was a child bride in Yemen.


----------



## SherriMunnerlyn

Here is a Photo of Rawan.

She looks like she is alive.

It looks like this thread title is a Propaganda lie.

I am reading Rawan was never even married. 


"Rawan was said to have died last week from internal bleeding after sexual intercourse, following her marriage in a remote area of the northeastern province of Hajja.

On Tuesday, the head of criminal investigations in Hajja's district of Harad, Muslem al-Ghazzi, presented a young girl and said: "This is Rawan. She is alive and has never been married."

The girl identified herself as Rawan Mohamed Abdo Hattan and repeated that she had never been married.

"Everything that was said [about me] was false. My oldest sister who is 18 was recently married," the girl, wearing a dress with short sleeves and a headscarf, said at the Harad meeting with reporters.

A man standing next to her was introduced by the criminal investigation chief as her father.

At the weekend, the governor of Hajja province told official news agency Saba that Rawan was still alive.

Ali al-Qaissi told Saba that "the young girl Rawan Abdo Hattan is still alive and normally lives with her family who, in turn, deny the whole thing".

Human Rights Watch said yesterday that 14 per cent of girls in Yemen are married before the age of 15, and 52 per cent before 18, citing Yemeni and UN 2006 figures."


Yemen denies child bride death | South China Morning Post


----------



## toastman

Sherri will go to any length to defend shit like this, as long as the person(s) is Muslim. What a sick twisted woman.


----------



## Sunni Man

Kinda strange how the American juden get all upset about marriage issues in muslim countries.

Yet, teen pregnancy and pedophile rape of children is epidemic in the U.S. where they live.  ..


----------



## toastman

Sunni Man said:


> Kinda strange how the American juden get all upset about marriage issues in muslim countries.
> 
> Yet, teen pregnancy and pedophile rape of children is epidemic in the U.S. where they live.  ..



The difference is, it's illegal in the U.S.

My goodness you're one dumb Muslim !

Let us know when 40 year old men are marrying 9 year old girls in the U.S, you sick puppy


----------



## Roudy

Sunni Man said:


> Kinda strange how the American juden get all upset about marriage issues in muslim countries.
> 
> Yet, teen pregnancy and pedophile rape of children is epidemic in the U.S. where they live.  ..


Ya, like they say in the mosque, all infidel / Western women are all whores, right?

So tell us, how old was Aisha when Mohammad married her?


----------



## Coyote

S.J. said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> 
> The whole "age of Aisha" seems to really bother non muslims and they seem to be obsessed with the issue.
> 
> But in the Islamic community it's not a big issue and muslims don't dwell on the topic.  ..
> 
> 
> 
> Thank you for confirming that muslims are not concerned with pedophilia while the rest of the world is.
Click to expand...


You are only concerned with pedophilia when it's a Muslim.  Your very first post in this thread was evidence of that.


----------



## Sunni Man

Roudy said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> 
> Kinda strange how the American juden get all upset about marriage issues in muslim countries.
> 
> Yet, teen pregnancy and pedophile rape of children is epidemic in the U.S. where they live.  ..
> 
> 
> 
> Ya, like they say in the mosque, all infidel / Western women are all whores, right?
Click to expand...

Never heard anyone say that at the mosque.

But I do know that's what jews think and say about gentile women.  ...


----------



## toastman

Sunni Man said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> 
> Kinda strange how the American juden get all upset about marriage issues in muslim countries.
> 
> Yet, teen pregnancy and pedophile rape of children is epidemic in the U.S. where they live.  ..
> 
> 
> 
> Ya, like they say in the mosque, all infidel / Western women are all whores, right?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Never heard anyone say that at the mosque.
> 
> But I do know that's what jews think and say about gentile women.  ...
Click to expand...


No, you just pretend to know about Jews. 
You are a rabid Sunni Muslim jihadist terrorist supporter, so therefore your opinion about Jews is absolutely useless


----------



## Coyote

Roudy said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> 
> This is called "you can run but you can't hide" syndrome.  I even showed you that in countries where you yourself cited as examples of child marriages in other cultures and religions, it is the Muslims in that community that have the biggest problem with child marriage.  At what point do you conceed that you lost this argument, not once, but many times.  Yes, it's prevalent among Muslims, and yes, Islam has a big influence on why it's so prevalent.  Accept it and move on.  You are too committed to defending something with bogus and controversial "facts" because of your own bias.  However in the process you aren't doing a favor to yourself, or the people you think you're defending.  This strategy isn't working for you.
> 
> Read what I posted again:
> 
> The Child Marriage Restraint Act, 1929 was passed during the tenure of British rule on pre-partition India.* It forbade the marriage of a male younger than 21 or a female younger than 18 for Hindus, Buddhists, Christians and most people of India. However, this law did not and currently does not apply to India's 165 million Muslim population, and only applies to India's Hindu, Christian, Jain, Sikh and other religious minorities.* This link of law and religion was formalized by the British colonial rule with the Muslim personal laws codified in the Indian Muslim Personal Law (Shariat) Application Act of 1937. *The age at which India's Muslim girl can legally marry, according to this Muslim Personal Law, is 9 years, and can be lower if her guardian (wali) decides she is sexually mature.[*70][71] Over the last 25 years, All India Muslim Personal Law Board and other Muslim civil organizations have actively opposed India-wide laws and enforcement action against child marriages; they have argued that Indian Muslim families have a religious right to marry a girl when her age is 15 or even 12.
> 
> *Gee, 9 years?  Now where did we here that magical age before?  Perhaps it was the age at which Aisha was married to prophet Mohammad?  Can we make an educated guess here?  What do you think?  No, no, of course not, Islam's influence is minimal here.  LOL *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Roudy, I repeatedly showed you that *the simple math and the demographics do not fit your claims when it comes to India and Nepa*l, two of the nations in the top ten.  You rely on one section of a Wikipedia article citing a law on which to base your claim and ignore everything else.
> 
> I also showed you it is hugely prevalent in Africa - again, top of the stats in nations (ten worst) are a mixture Muslim, Christian, and Hindu.  You ignore this.
> 
> You ignore everything that doesn't make it all Islam.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Again I used your India example and its the Muslim Indians that have the biggest problem wi child marriages. *In fact all the other Indians have conceded to stop doing it, except for Muslims. *And they cite RELIGION as their reason for it.
> 
> At what point will bells go off in your mind, and when will you run out of lipstick?  LOL
Click to expand...



No Roudy, they haven't.  They might have laws against it but they aren't enforced in the rural primarily HINDU northern districts  - did you even look at the demographics of the areas where it's a big problem?  They are NOT stopping it and their RELIGION encourages it.  It's not just the Muslims and it's certainly not "mostly" the Muslims because the numbers just aren't there.  Give it up and quit giving a free pass to the Hindus.


----------



## Sunni Man

toastman said:


> You are a rabid Sunni Muslim jihadist terrorist supporter, so therefore your opinion about Jews is absolutely useless.


Bet you can't say that 3 times really fast without messing up.  ..


----------



## S.J.

Sunni Man said:


> S.J. said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> 
> Tell ya what.........why don't you mind your own business and worry about issues that directly affect you.
> 
> And we will address the issues that affect us.
> 
> Deal?   ...
> 
> 
> 
> Because babies can't defend themselves from perverts and it's every civilized person's *duty* to try to stop child abuse.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> What makes it your "duty" an who appointed you as the world's policeman??  ..
Click to expand...

It's everybody's duty to stop adult men from raping babies, no one needs to be "appointed", fucktard.  What the hell is wrong with you, anyway?


----------



## Sunni Man

S.J. said:


> It's everybody's duty to stop adult men from raping babies, no one needs to be "appointed", fucktard.  What the hell is wrong with you, anyway?


Maybe you should by a ticket and get on the next flight to bum fvck Egypt and straighten them all out.  ..


----------



## toastman

S.J. said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> S.J. said:
> 
> 
> 
> Because babies can't defend themselves from perverts and it's every civilized person's *duty* to try to stop child abuse.
> 
> 
> 
> What makes it your "duty" an who appointed you as the world's policeman??  ..
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> It's everybody's duty to stop adult men from raping babies, no one needs to be "appointed", fucktard.  *What the hell is wrong with you, anyway?*
Click to expand...


I've been asking him the same thing for a while now.........


----------



## S.J.

Sunni Man said:


> S.J. said:
> 
> 
> 
> It's everybody's duty to stop adult men from raping babies, no one needs to be "appointed", fucktard.  What the hell is wrong with you, anyway?
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe you should by a ticket and get on the next flight to bum fvck Egypt and straighten them all out.  ..
Click to expand...

You're a lousy excuse for a human being, you know that?


----------



## Sunni Man

toastman said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Ya, like they say in the mosque, all infidel / Western women are all whores, right?
> 
> 
> 
> Never heard anyone say that at the mosque.
> 
> But I do know that's what jews think and say about gentile women.  ...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No, you just pretend to know about Jews.
Click to expand...

The juden name for a non hebrew girl is a 'shitza'.

Clearly a derogatory term.......


----------



## Sweet_Caroline

Sunni Man said:


> toastman said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> 
> Never heard anyone say that at the mosque.
> 
> But I do know that's what jews think and say about gentile women.  ...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No, you just pretend to know about Jews.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> *The juden name for a non hebrew girl is a 'shitza'.*
> 
> Clearly a derogatory term.......
Click to expand...



Link please to that.


----------



## Sunni Man

Juden have derogatory names for ever category of non hebrews.

The word 'goyim' (goy) is a case in point.  

(yea, I know it's yiddish....blah, blah, blah......)  ..


----------



## Sweet_Caroline

Sweet_Caroline said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> toastman said:
> 
> 
> 
> No, you just pretend to know about Jews.
> 
> 
> 
> *The juden name for a non hebrew girl is a 'shitza'.*
> 
> Clearly a derogatory term.......
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Link please to that.
Click to expand...


Still no link


----------



## Sunni Man

Sweet_Caroline said:


> Sweet_Caroline said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> 
> *The juden name for a non hebrew girl is a 'shitza'.*
> 
> Clearly a derogatory term.......
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Link please to that.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Still no link
Click to expand...

Beg all you want, but I don't work for you. ..


----------



## Sweet_Caroline

Sunni Man said:


> The juden name for a non hebrew girl is a 'shitza'.
> 
> Clearly a derogatory term.......





Sweet_Caroline said:


> Link please to that.





Sweet_Caroline said:


> Still no link





Sunni Man said:


> Beg all you want, but I don't work for you. ..



*Yet again your despicable trolling lies has caught you out.  I asked you to prove your claim that "the Jewish name for a non-Hebrew girl is a shitza" and you won't prove it.  Therefore you have lied, as usual.*


----------



## Sunni Man

..............................................................^^^^


----------



## toastman

Sunni Troll hahaa


----------



## Moonglow

Go and play your Middle East games in another thread.


----------



## Jos

> The word shiksa is etymologically partly derived from the Hebrew term &#1513;&#1511;&#1509; shekets, meaning "abomination", "impure," or "object of loathing", depending on the translator.[3]
> 
> Several dictionaries define "shiksa" as a disparaging and offensive term applied to a non-Jewish girl or woman.


Shiksa - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


----------



## toastman

Jos said:


> The word shiksa is etymologically partly derived from the Hebrew term &#1513;&#1511;&#1509; shekets, meaning "abomination", "impure," or "object of loathing", depending on the translator.[3]
> 
> Several dictionaries define "shiksa" as a disparaging and offensive term applied to a non-Jewish girl or woman.
> 
> 
> 
> Shiksa - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Click to expand...


Damn , those Jooos are so evil, aren't they Jos ?


----------



## Sunni Man

At least the Juden aren't sexist,......because they even have an equally derogatory term for non hebrew males.  ..   

*Shegetz* (young non-Jewish male)

Alternatively spelled "shaygetz", "sheigetz", "shaigetz", or "sheygets", this is a derogatory word to describe a non-Jewish young male. It usually can also translate as "rascal" or "scoundrel" and has the implication the male is violent and brutish. The female version is shikse.* They both come from the Hebrew word &#1513;&#1499;&#1509; (sheketz) which means unpure or blemmished.* The plural can be either "shkotzim" or "shgatzim".

What is Shegetz in English? - Yiddish Slang Dictionary


----------



## toastman

LOL at the Sunni Muslim trying to take the attention away from the actual issue of Muslim men marrying and having sex with little girls. Getting desperate ey Sunni Troll ??


----------



## Sweet_Caroline

toastman said:


> LOL at the Sunni Muslim trying to take the attention away from the actual issue of Muslim men marrying and having sex with little girls. Getting desperate ey Sunni Troll ??



Sunni whose location is Dar al Harb (New England according to him) is probably changing the topic because he is ashamed of what his fellow Muslims do.


----------



## SherriMunnerlyn

The whole  thread appears to be based on a tale that never happened.

Where is the proof the incident addressed in the OP happened?

Look at the Zionists demonizing Muslims here over an incident that appears to have never even happened.


----------



## Sunni Man

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> The whole  thread appears to be based on a tale that never happened.
> 
> Where is the proof the incident addressed in the OP happened?
> 
> Look at the Zionists demonizing Muslims here over an incident that appears to have never even happened.


It's just your typical zionist hate fest towards muslims and Islam.  ..


----------



## Coyote

toastman said:


> LOL at the Sunni Muslim trying to take the attention away from the actual issue of Muslim men marrying and having sex with little girls. Getting desperate ey Sunni Troll ??



Actually, the issue is child brides and some are trying to make it about Muslims and Jews.


----------



## Coyote

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> The whole  thread appears to be based on a tale that never happened.
> 
> Where is the proof the incident addressed in the OP happened?
> 
> Look at the Zionists demonizing Muslims here over an incident that appears to have never even happened.



It happens quite a lot worldwide and is a serious issue.  Unfortunately some don't care much unless it involves Muslims.


----------



## Sunni Man

Sweet_Caroline said:


> Sunni whose location is Dar al Harb (New England according to him)


In Islam the world is divided into 2 distinctions.

Dar al Islam.......a country where the majority of the population is muslim.

and

Dar al Harb.......a country where muslims are a minority.


.........


----------



## Sweet_Caroline

Sunni Man said:


> Sweet_Caroline said:
> 
> 
> 
> Sunni whose location is Dar al Harb (New England according to him)
> 
> 
> 
> In Islam the world is divided into 2 distinctions.
> 
> Dar al Islam.......a country where the majority of the population is muslim.
> 
> and
> 
> *Dar al Harb.......a country where muslims are a minority.
> *
> 
> .........
Click to expand...


Persecuted in New England then?


Thesaurus Legend:  Synonyms Related Words Antonyms
Noun	1.	*Dar al-harb - areas where Muslims are in the minority and are persecuted*


----------



## Sunni Man

Sweet_Caroline said:


> Persecuted in New England then?
> 
> 
> Thesaurus Legend:  Synonyms Related Words Antonyms
> Noun	1.	*Dar al-harb - areas where Muslims are in the minority and are persecuted*


But yes, muslims have a difficult time in the U.S.

Just recently a mosque was vandalized in New Hampshire.  ..


----------



## Sweet_Caroline

Sunni Man said:


> Sweet_Caroline said:
> 
> 
> 
> Persecuted in New England then?
> 
> 
> Thesaurus Legend:  Synonyms Related Words Antonyms
> Noun	1.	*Dar al-harb - areas where Muslims are in the minority and are persecuted*
> 
> 
> 
> But yes, muslims have a difficult time in the U.S.
> 
> Just recently a mosque was vandalized in New Hampshire.  ..
Click to expand...


You feel you are in the land where Muslims are persecuted then?


----------



## Sunni Man

Sweet_Caroline said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sweet_Caroline said:
> 
> 
> 
> Persecuted in New England then?
> 
> 
> Thesaurus Legend:  Synonyms Related Words Antonyms
> Noun	1.	*Dar al-harb - areas where Muslims are in the minority and are persecuted*
> 
> 
> 
> But yes, muslims have a difficult time in the U.S.
> 
> Just recently a mosque was vandalized in New Hampshire.  ..
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You feel you are in the land where Muslims are persecuted then?
Click to expand...

What do you think??  ..


----------



## Sweet_Caroline

Sunni Man said:


> Sweet_Caroline said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> 
> But yes, muslims have a difficult time in the U.S.
> 
> Just recently a mosque was vandalized in New Hampshire.  ..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You feel you are in the land where Muslims are persecuted then?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> What do you think??  ..
Click to expand...


I think you probably have it far easier than you would in another given country in the Middle East.  Tell me where you would prefer to live if the US is so bad to Muslims?


----------



## Sunni Man

Sweet_Caroline said:


> I think you probably have it far easier than you would in another given country in the Middle East.


Why do you think that?  ..


----------



## SherriMunnerlyn

Coyote said:


> SherriMunnerlyn said:
> 
> 
> 
> The whole  thread appears to be based on a tale that never happened.
> 
> Where is the proof the incident addressed in the OP happened?
> 
> Look at the Zionists demonizing Muslims here over an incident that appears to have never even happened.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It happens quite a lot worldwide and is a serious issue.  Unfortunately some don't care much unless it involves Muslims.
Click to expand...


I was trying to understand how this story could be getting all this attention when it might not even be true. Then, I read the story about Sally and I saw how her family forced the marriage on her, as a child,  even drugging her to make her compliant to her husband after she was married. And she later got the marriage annulled with the help of activists I think. And it was all tied up with money the family received when she was married and the poverty in families. They did not want her to leave the marriage to her first cousin and have to give back the money they received for her.  I wonder if this child, the story in the OP,  was trying to avoid a marriage she felt her family might be planning to force her into. Looking at it from the standpoint of the stories these child brides actually tell, like Sally, it seems cultural and tied up with economics more than anything else. Certainly not a practice that defines all Muslims.


----------



## Sweet_Caroline

Sunni Man said:


> Sweet_Caroline said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think you probably have it far easier than you would in another given country in the Middle East.
> 
> 
> 
> Why do you think that?  ..
Click to expand...


Standard of living, tolerance of all religions, no sectarian violence etc.


----------



## Coyote

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SherriMunnerlyn said:
> 
> 
> 
> The whole  thread appears to be based on a tale that never happened.
> 
> Where is the proof the incident addressed in the OP happened?
> 
> Look at the Zionists demonizing Muslims here over an incident that appears to have never even happened.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It happens quite a lot worldwide and is a serious issue.  Unfortunately some don't care much unless it involves Muslims.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I was trying to understand how this story could be getting all this attention when it might not even be true. Then, I read the story about Sally and I saw how her family forced the marriage on her, as a child,  even drugging her to make her compliant to her husband after she was married. And she later got the marriage annulled with the help of activists I think. *And it was all tied up with money the family received when she was married and the poverty in families.* They did not want her to leave the marriage to her first cousin and have to give back the money they received for her.  I wonder if this child, the story in the OP,  was trying to avoid a marriage she felt her family might be planning to force her into. Looking at it from the standpoint of the stories these child brides actually tell, like Sally, *it seems cultural and tied up with economics more than anything else. Certainly not a practice that defines all Muslims*.
Click to expand...


That's a huge factor in child marriages - marrying off girl children brings the family income or settles debts.  It also relieves the family from the burden of feeding another mouth.  I totally agree with you on this.


----------



## Sunni Man

Seems like every week there is a story in the media about some mother selling her child to drug dealers for money or crack here in America.

But the zionist cabal here on USMB want to focus on alleged problems half way across the world because the people involved are muslims.

You would think they would want to clean up their own backyard first??  ..


----------



## Coyote

It only matters if it's Muslims.  Even if it's not Muslims, they're probably involved in some way.


----------



## Peterf

Sunni Man said:


> Sweet_Caroline said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> 
> But yes, muslims have a difficult time in the U.S.
> 
> Just recently a mosque was vandalized in New Hampshire.  ..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You feel you are in the land where Muslims are persecuted then?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> What do you think??  ..
Click to expand...


So Muslims are persecuted in the US Sunni Man?   I never knew that.   You mean that they are threatened with beheading unless they convert - like Christians are in Syria?  Or perhaps many mosques have been burnt to the ground - like Coptic churches have been in Egypt?  Have many American Muslims been murdered by opposing religious fanatics - as has happened to Christians in Iraq?

Maybe the Swedish media has neglected to report these incidents.   Tell me if they have happened.   If they have not, then withdraw your silly claim that Islam is persecuted in your country.


----------



## Sunni Man

Coyote said:


> That's a huge factor in child marriages - marrying off girl children brings the family income or settles debts.  It also relieves the family from the burden of feeding another mouth.  I totally agree with you on this.


That is standard practice in many poor Asian countries.  ..


----------



## Sunni Man

Sweet_Caroline said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sweet_Caroline said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think you probably have it far easier than you would in another given country in the Middle East.
> 
> 
> 
> Why do you think that?  ..
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Standard of living, tolerance of all religions, no sectarian violence etc.
Click to expand...

Many of the Gulf countries have a much higher standard of living then the U.S. and are politically very stable.

True story.........


----------



## Peterf

Sunni Man said:


> Seems like every week there is a story in the media about some mother selling her child to drug dealers for money or crack here in America.
> 
> But the zionist cabal here on USMB want to focus on alleged problems half way across the world because the people involved are muslims.
> 
> You would think they would want to clean up their own backyard first??  ..



Yes, its very culturally insensitive to think that because Amerika has this predjudice against raping 8 year old girls to death other cultures, equally valid, must think the same.  All the posters on this thread condemning this Yemani gentleman, who probably paid for the girl fair and square,  should be ashamed of themselves.

 I mean if it was actually wrong that great world religion, Islam, would condemn it.  Wouldn't i?


----------



## Peterf

Sunni Man said:


> Sweet_Caroline said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> 
> Why do you think that?  ..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Standard of living, tolerance of all religions, no sectarian violence etc.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Many of the Gulf countries have a much higher standard of living then the U.S. and are politically very stable.
> 
> True story.........
Click to expand...


Yes indeedy.   Bahrain, for example, is kept 'very politically stable' by the sunni rulers violently supressing demonstrations by the shia majority.   And bringing in Saudi (i e sunni) army units to help them.


----------



## Sunni Man

Peterf said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sweet_Caroline said:
> 
> 
> 
> Standard of living, tolerance of all religions, no sectarian violence etc.
> 
> 
> 
> Many of the Gulf countries have a much higher standard of living then the U.S. and are politically very stable.
> 
> True story.........
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yes indeedy.   Bahrain, for example, is kept 'very politically stable' by the sunni rulers violently supressing demonstrations by the shia majority.   And bringing in Saudi (i e sunni) army units to help them.
Click to expand...

Not my problem.......


----------



## Sweet_Caroline

Sunni Man said:


> Peterf said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> 
> Many of the Gulf countries have a much higher standard of living then the U.S. and are politically very stable.
> 
> True story.........
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes indeedy.   Bahrain, for example, is kept 'very politically stable' by the sunni rulers violently supressing demonstrations by the shia majority.   And bringing in Saudi (i e sunni) army units to help them.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Not my problem.......
Click to expand...


​


----------



## SherriMunnerlyn

Peterf said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> 
> Seems like every week there is a story in the media about some mother selling her child to drug dealers for money or crack here in America.
> 
> But the zionist cabal here on USMB want to focus on alleged problems half way across the world because the people involved are muslims.
> 
> You would think they would want to clean up their own backyard first??  ..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, its very culturally insensitive to think that because Amerika has this predjudice against raping 8 year old girls to death other cultures, equally valid, must think the same.  All the posters on this thread condemning this Yemani gentleman, who probably paid for the girl fair and square,  should be ashamed of themselves.
> 
> I mean if it was actually wrong that great world religion, Islam, would condemn it.  Wouldn't i?
Click to expand...


It seems like I remember this story about millions of babies being aborted in America.

But if it was really wrong, would not that great world religion, Christianity, condemn it. Wouldn't it? Wouldn't they be stopping that practice, too?


----------



## Coyote

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> Peterf said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> 
> Seems like every week there is a story in the media about some mother selling her child to drug dealers for money or crack here in America.
> 
> But the zionist cabal here on USMB want to focus on alleged problems half way across the world because the people involved are muslims.
> 
> You would think they would want to clean up their own backyard first??  ..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, its very culturally insensitive to think that because Amerika has this predjudice against raping 8 year old girls to death other cultures, equally valid, must think the same.  All the posters on this thread condemning this Yemani gentleman, who probably paid for the girl fair and square,  should be ashamed of themselves.
> 
> I mean if it was actually wrong that great world religion, Islam, would condemn it.  Wouldn't i?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> It seems like I remember this story about millions of babies being aborted in America.
> 
> But if it was really wrong, would not that great world religion, Christianity, condemn it. Wouldn't it? Wouldn't they be stopping that practice, too?
Click to expand...


Good point!  Of course, we all know that Islam is expected to behave as a monolithic entity and differences in sects and scholars are ignored.  How dare you apply the same standards!


----------



## Coyote

Peterf said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> 
> Seems like every week there is a story in the media about some mother selling her child to drug dealers for money or crack here in America.
> 
> But the zionist cabal here on USMB want to focus on alleged problems half way across the world because the people involved are muslims.
> 
> You would think they would want to clean up their own backyard first??  ..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, its very culturally insensitive to think that because Amerika has this predjudice against raping 8 year old girls to death other cultures, equally valid, must think the same.  *All the posters on this thread condemning this Yemani gentleman*, who probably paid for the girl fair and square,  should be ashamed of themselves.
> 
> I mean if it was actually wrong that great world religion, Islam, would condemn it.  Wouldn't i?
Click to expand...


Actually, many of them didn't bother to condemn said gentleman.  They jump right onto the Islamophobia bandwagon.


----------



## Jos

Peterf said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sweet_Caroline said:
> 
> 
> 
> Standard of living, tolerance of all religions, no sectarian violence etc.
> 
> 
> 
> Many of the Gulf countries have a much higher standard of living then the U.S. and are politically very stable.
> 
> True story.........
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yes indeedy.   Bahrain, for example, is kept 'very politically stable' by the sunni rulers violently supressing demonstrations by the shia majority.   And bringing in Saudi (i e sunni) army units to help them.
Click to expand...


Of course they need to keep stability in Bahrain, The US 5th fleet has it's base there Commander, U.S. Naval Forces Central/ U.S. 5th Fleet


----------



## Coyote

Peterf said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sweet_Caroline said:
> 
> 
> 
> You feel you are in the land where Muslims are persecuted then?
> 
> 
> 
> What do you think??  ..
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> So Muslims are persecuted in the US Sunni Man?   I never knew that.   You mean that they are threatened with beheading unless they convert - like Christians are in Syria?  Or perhaps many mosques have been burnt to the ground - like Coptic churches have been in Egypt?  Have many American Muslims been murdered by opposing religious fanatics - as has happened to Christians in Iraq?
> 
> Maybe the Swedish media has neglected to report these incidents.   Tell me if they have happened.   If they have not, then withdraw your silly claim that Islam is persecuted in your country.
Click to expand...


I'm guessing that if someone is not beheaded or murdered, then it doesn't count as persecution.  Of course, I notice you don't mention the Muslims murdered in Myanmar by religious fanatics.  

On the other hand...

Four firebombs,*including one*tossed at Queens*mosque, eyed*as hate crimes* - NY Daily News
Missouri mosque destroyed in second fire in a month - CNN.com
Man pleads guilty to 3 counts in Islamic Center mosque fire - Toledo Blade
https://www.aclu.org/maps/map-nationwide-anti-mosque-activity

Maybe it's not so silly after all.  Especially given that there are numerous elected officials who buy into the Islamaphobic rants of the Pamela Gellar types and try to legislate anti-Islam laws.


----------



## S.J.

Obvious conclusion reading this thread...Muslims on this site defend child rape.


----------



## Coyote

S.J. said:


> Obvious conclusion reading this thread...Muslims on this site defend child rape.



^
^
^
Charitable conclusion: reading comprehension problems.


----------



## Jos

S.J. said:


> Obvious conclusion reading this thread...Muslims on this site defend child rape.





> Oblivious conclusion reading this thread...Muslims on this site defend child rape.


there, fixed that for ya


----------



## toastman

S.J. said:


> Obvious conclusion reading this thread...Muslims on this site defend child rape.



Notice how Sunni Man kept trying to change the subject to something Jewish related


----------



## Coyote

toastman said:


> S.J. said:
> 
> 
> 
> Obvious conclusion reading this thread...Muslims on this site defend child rape.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Notice how Sunni Man kept trying to change the subject to something Jewish related
Click to expand...


It's not about Jews or Muslims.  Some try to make it that way.

I have seen not one single person on this site defend child rape.  Not one.


----------



## S.J.

toastman said:


> S.J. said:
> 
> 
> 
> Obvious conclusion reading this thread...Muslims on this site defend child rape.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Notice how Sunni Man kept trying to change the subject to something Jewish related
Click to expand...

Yes, I did.


----------



## S.J.

Coyote said:


> toastman said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> S.J. said:
> 
> 
> 
> Obvious conclusion reading this thread...Muslims on this site defend child rape.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Notice how Sunni Man kept trying to change the subject to something Jewish related
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> It's not about Jews or Muslims.  Some try to make it that way.
> 
> I have seen not one single person on this site defend child rape.  Not one.
Click to expand...

Bullshit.


----------



## toastman

Coyote said:


> toastman said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> S.J. said:
> 
> 
> 
> Obvious conclusion reading this thread...Muslims on this site defend child rape.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Notice how Sunni Man kept trying to change the subject to something Jewish related
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> It's not about Jews or Muslims.  Some try to make it that way.
> 
> I have seen not one single person on this site defend child rape.  Not one.
Click to expand...


and I have not seen you EVER condemn Sunni Man's disgusting comments about Jews . I'm talking about in other threads, not just this one


----------



## Coyote

toastman said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> toastman said:
> 
> 
> 
> Notice how Sunni Man kept trying to change the subject to something Jewish related
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's not about Jews or Muslims.  Some try to make it that way.
> 
> I have seen not one single person on this site defend child rape.  Not one.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> and I have not seen you EVER condemn Sunni Man's disgusting comments about Jews . I'm talking about in other threads, not just this one
Click to expand...


Has he defended child rape or accused Jews of child rape?


----------



## Coyote

S.J. said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> toastman said:
> 
> 
> 
> Notice how Sunni Man kept trying to change the subject to something Jewish related
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's not about Jews or Muslims.  Some try to make it that way.
> 
> I have seen not one single person on this site defend child rape.  Not one.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Bullshit.
Click to expand...


Links please.

Time to put up or stop trying to eat your shoe.


----------



## Peterf

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> Peterf said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> 
> Seems like every week there is a story in the media about some mother selling her child to drug dealers for money or crack here in America.
> 
> But the zionist cabal here on USMB want to focus on alleged problems half way across the world because the people involved are muslims.
> 
> You would think they would want to clean up their own backyard first??  ..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, its very culturally insensitive to think that because Amerika has this predjudice against raping 8 year old girls to death other cultures, equally valid, must think the same.  All the posters on this thread condemning this Yemani gentleman, who probably paid for the girl fair and square,  should be ashamed of themselves.
> 
> I mean if it was actually wrong that great world religion, Islam, would condemn it.  Wouldn't i?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> It seems like I remember this story about millions of babies being aborted in America.
> 
> But if it was really wrong, would not that great world religion, Christianity, condemn it. Wouldn't it? Wouldn't they be stopping that practice, too?
Click to expand...


From what I've heard Christians in the US condemn abortion 12 times every day before they've even had their breakfast.   But they have no power to stop it as the US prides itself as  democracy not a theocracy.

And I do not think that abortion is the equivalent of raping an eight-year-old to death.   You apparently do.


----------



## toastman

Coyote said:


> toastman said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> It's not about Jews or Muslims.  Some try to make it that way.
> 
> I have seen not one single person on this site defend child rape.  Not one.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> and I have not seen you EVER condemn Sunni Man's disgusting comments about Jews . I'm talking about in other threads, not just this one
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Has he defended child rape or accused Jews of child rape?
Click to expand...


Not that I'm aware of. 

I just feel like you are very bias when it comes to condemning anti - Muslim comments versus anti - Jewish comments. And he's made many many many disgusting ones, but you are never there to say anything. 
Sorry, but that's just how I feel.


----------



## Coyote

toastman said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> toastman said:
> 
> 
> 
> and I have not seen you EVER condemn Sunni Man's disgusting comments about Jews . I'm talking about in other threads, not just this one
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Has he defended child rape or accused Jews of child rape?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Not that I'm aware of.
> 
> I just feel like you are very bias when it comes to condemning anti - Muslim comments versus anti - Jewish comments. And he's made many many many disgusting ones, but you are never there to say anything.
> Sorry, but that's just how I feel.
Click to expand...




Intent matters.


----------



## toastman

Coyote said:


> toastman said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> Has he defended child rape or accused Jews of child rape?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Not that I'm aware of.
> 
> I just feel like you are very bias when it comes to condemning anti - Muslim comments versus anti - Jewish comments. And he's made many many many disgusting ones, but you are never there to say anything.
> Sorry, but that's just how I feel.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Intent matters.
Click to expand...


How do you know what any other posters intent is when they are making anti Muslim or anti Jewish comments


----------



## Peterf

Coyote said:


> Peterf said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> 
> Seems like every week there is a story in the media about some mother selling her child to drug dealers for money or crack here in America.
> 
> But the zionist cabal here on USMB want to focus on alleged problems half way across the world because the people involved are muslims.
> 
> You would think they would want to clean up their own backyard first??  ..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, its very culturally insensitive to think that because Amerika has this predjudice against raping 8 year old girls to death other cultures, equally valid, must think the same.  *All the posters on this thread condemning this Yemani gentleman*, who probably paid for the girl fair and square,  should be ashamed of themselves.
> 
> I mean if it was actually wrong that great world religion, Islam, would condemn it.  Wouldn't i?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Actually, many of them didn't bother to condemn said gentleman.  They jump right onto the Islamophobia bandwagon.
Click to expand...


I have a phobia.  My hands start to sweat and I get all twitchy every time I see the idiot word 'islamophobia' being used.   On the other hand my contempt for and hearty dislike of Islam is based on stark reality: periods of residence in two Islamic countries - Iran and Kuwait, since you ask.


----------



## Coyote

Peterf said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Peterf said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, its very culturally insensitive to think that because Amerika has this predjudice against raping 8 year old girls to death other cultures, equally valid, must think the same.  *All the posters on this thread condemning this Yemani gentleman*, who probably paid for the girl fair and square,  should be ashamed of themselves.
> 
> I mean if it was actually wrong that great world religion, Islam, would condemn it.  Wouldn't i?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Actually, many of them didn't bother to condemn said gentleman.  They jump right onto the Islamophobia bandwagon.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I have a phobia.  My hands start to sweat and I get all twitchy every time I see the idiot word 'islamophobia' being used.   On the other hand my contempt for and hearty dislike of Islam is based on stark reality: periods of residence in two Islamic countries - Iran and Kuwait, since you ask.
Click to expand...


What else would you call bigotry against Muslims?  Or are you saying it doesn't exist?  Does anti-semitism exist?


----------



## Coyote

toastman said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> toastman said:
> 
> 
> 
> Not that I'm aware of.
> 
> I just feel like you are very bias when it comes to condemning anti - Muslim comments versus anti - Jewish comments. And he's made many many many disgusting ones, but you are never there to say anything.
> Sorry, but that's just how I feel.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Intent matters.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> How do you know what any other posters intent is when they are making anti Muslim or anti Jewish comments
Click to expand...


It's subjective, from reading their posts over time and, sometimes from pm'ing with them


----------



## Sunni Man

toastman said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> toastman said:
> 
> 
> 
> Notice how Sunni Man kept trying to change the subject to something Jewish related
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's not about Jews or Muslims.  Some try to make it that way.
> 
> I have seen not one single person on this site defend child rape.  Not one.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> and I have not seen you EVER condemn Sunni Man's disgusting comments about Jews . I'm talking about in other threads, not just this one
Click to expand...

I see you and the other USMB zionist jews make horrible comments about muslims on dozens of threads.

Yet, to you and them, that's perfectly normal and acceptable. 

But heaven forbid if I say anything less than flattering about Israel or Jews.  ..


----------



## S.J.

Coyote said:


> S.J. said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> It's not about Jews or Muslims.  Some try to make it that way.
> 
> I have seen not one single person on this site defend child rape.  Not one.
> 
> 
> 
> Bullshit.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Links please.
> 
> Time to put up or stop trying to eat your shoe.
Click to expand...

Links?  You're on one of them right now.


----------



## toastman

Sunni Man said:


> toastman said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> It's not about Jews or Muslims.  Some try to make it that way.
> 
> I have seen not one single person on this site defend child rape.  Not one.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> and I have not seen you EVER condemn Sunni Man's disgusting comments about Jews . I'm talking about in other threads, not just this one
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I see you and the other USMB zionist jews make horrible comments about muslims on dozens of threads.
> 
> Yet, to you and them, that's perfectly normal and acceptable.
> 
> But heaven forbid if I say anything less than flattering about Israel or Jews.  ..
Click to expand...


I never made any derogatory comments about Muslims, only to you.

So, if you think that I have something against Muslims in general, well then let me clear that up now.
I have nothing against Muslims or Arabs, at all. I only have something against Muslims or Arabs who are jihadists and terrorists. 
I really have no idea why you would think otherwise.

You however clearly have a strong hate for Jews. Why? I don't know. But I personally find it disgusting and vile.


----------



## Roudy

Sunni Man said:


> Sweet_Caroline said:
> 
> 
> 
> Sunni whose location is Dar al Harb (New England according to him)
> 
> 
> 
> In Islam the world is divided into 2 distinctions.
> 
> Dar al Islam.......a country where the majority of the population is muslim.
> 
> and
> 
> Dar al Harb.......a country where muslims are a minority.
> 
> 
> .........
Click to expand...

Actually, nice try. 

referring, Dar-al-harb, the word "harb" in Arabic literally means "war" so the phrase literally means countries that Muslims need to wage war or jihad in, to convert it into Islamic lands.


----------



## Coyote

S.J. said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> S.J. said:
> 
> 
> 
> Bullshit.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Links please.
> 
> Time to put up or stop trying to eat your shoe.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Links?  You're on one of them right now.
Click to expand...


Cop out.

In other words you have no links to posts here supporting pedophilia.  It's baseless.


----------



## Roudy

Coyote said:


> SherriMunnerlyn said:
> 
> 
> 
> The whole  thread appears to be based on a tale that never happened.
> 
> Where is the proof the incident addressed in the OP happened?
> 
> Look at the Zionists demonizing Muslims here over an incident that appears to have never even happened.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It happens quite a lot worldwide and is a serious issue.  Unfortunately some don't care much unless it involves Muslims.
Click to expand...

And then we have some who try to disinfect the role of Islam with the prevalence of child brides among Muslims, and that this is just a thing that "happens quite a lot worldwide".


----------



## Hollie

Peterf said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Peterf said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, its very culturally insensitive to think that because Amerika has this predjudice against raping 8 year old girls to death other cultures, equally valid, must think the same.  *All the posters on this thread condemning this Yemani gentleman*, who probably paid for the girl fair and square,  should be ashamed of themselves.
> 
> I mean if it was actually wrong that great world religion, Islam, would condemn it.  Wouldn't i?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Actually, many of them didn't bother to condemn said gentleman.  They jump right onto the Islamophobia bandwagon.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I have a phobia.  My hands start to sweat and I get all twitchy every time I see the idiot word 'islamophobia' being used.   On the other hand my contempt for and hearty dislike of Islam is based on stark reality: periods of residence in two Islamic countries - Iran and Kuwait, since you ask.
Click to expand...


Agreed. "That's islamophobic" has become a favored canard for moslems who wish to deflect and/or sidestep legitimate criticism of Islam and it's proscriptions.


----------



## S.J.

Coyote said:


> S.J. said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> Links please.
> 
> Time to put up or stop trying to eat your shoe.
> 
> 
> 
> Links?  You're on one of them right now.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Cop out.
> 
> In other words you have no links to posts here supporting pedophilia.  It's baseless.
Click to expand...

Your (and Sunni Man's) comments on this thread speak for themselves.  On the one hand, you say you don't defend it, but then you proceed to defend those who engage in it, deny it happens, and try to deflect by attacking Jews.


----------



## Roudy

Sunni Man said:


> Sweet_Caroline said:
> 
> 
> 
> Persecuted in New England then?
> 
> 
> Thesaurus Legend:  Synonyms Related Words Antonyms
> Noun	1.	*Dar al-harb - areas where Muslims are in the minority and are persecuted*
> 
> 
> 
> But yes, muslims have a difficult time in the U.S.
> 
> Just recently a mosque was vandalized in New Hampshire.  ..
Click to expand...

Well at least it wasn't bombed or burned down like Muslims do to Christian Churches.


----------



## Sunni Man

Roudy said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sweet_Caroline said:
> 
> 
> 
> Persecuted in New England then?
> 
> 
> Thesaurus Legend:  Synonyms Related Words Antonyms
> Noun	1.	*Dar al-harb - areas where Muslims are in the minority and are persecuted*
> 
> 
> 
> But yes, muslims have a difficult time in the U.S.
> 
> Just recently a mosque was vandalized in New Hampshire.  ..
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Well at least it wasn't bombed or burned down like Muslims do to Christian Churches.
Click to expand...

Please provide the date and location of any Christian churches that muslims have bombed or burned down here in America??  ...


----------



## Roudy

Peterf said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Peterf said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, its very culturally insensitive to think that because Amerika has this predjudice against raping 8 year old girls to death other cultures, equally valid, must think the same.  *All the posters on this thread condemning this Yemani gentleman*, who probably paid for the girl fair and square,  should be ashamed of themselves.
> 
> I mean if it was actually wrong that great world religion, Islam, would condemn it.  Wouldn't i?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Actually, many of them didn't bother to condemn said gentleman.  They jump right onto the Islamophobia bandwagon.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I have a phobia.  My hands start to sweat and I get all twitchy every time I see the idiot word 'islamophobia' being used.   On the other hand my contempt for and hearty dislike of Islam is based on stark reality: periods of residence in two Islamic countries - Iran and Kuwait, since you ask.
Click to expand...

Then you have a similar experience that I do.  To understand Islam and Muslim mentality, it is best to live in a Muslim country for a while.


----------



## Hollie

Sunni Man said:


> Sweet_Caroline said:
> 
> 
> 
> Persecuted in New England then?
> 
> 
> Thesaurus Legend:  Synonyms Related Words Antonyms
> Noun	1.	*Dar al-harb - areas where Muslims are in the minority and are persecuted*
> 
> 
> 
> But yes, muslims have a difficult time in the U.S.
> 
> Just recently a mosque was vandalized in New Hampshire.  ..
Click to expand...


What difficult time?

As a goofy convert, you have never known anything but the rights and privileges you exploit in the U.S.

Oh, and yes, I got your vile message of hate with the neg rep.

It's actually comical that you're unable to defend your positions in the thread and are forced to such childish sniping.


----------



## Roudy

Sunni Man said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> 
> But yes, muslims have a difficult time in the U.S.
> 
> Just recently a mosque was vandalized in New Hampshire.  ..
> 
> 
> 
> Well at least it wasn't bombed or burned down like Muslims do to Christian Churches.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Please provide the date and location of any Christian churches that muslims have bombed or burned down here in America??  ...
Click to expand...

I didn't mean America, idiot.  

Muslims regularly blow up churches and persecute Christians in Muslim countries.  Don't act like you don't know about it, or that it doesn't happen.


----------



## Hollie

Sunni Man said:


> Peterf said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> 
> Many of the Gulf countries have a much higher standard of living then the U.S. and are politically very stable.
> 
> True story.........
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes indeedy.   Bahrain, for example, is kept 'very politically stable' by the sunni rulers violently supressing demonstrations by the shia majority.   And bringing in Saudi (i e sunni) army units to help them.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Not my problem.......
Click to expand...


Of course it's not your problem. As a faux moslem, you can simply ignore what takes place in the islamist world because in the U.S., you're protected from the very Islamism you pretend to embrace.

It's pretty typical behavior of goofy converts.


----------



## Hollie

Jos said:


> Peterf said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> 
> Many of the Gulf countries have a much higher standard of living then the U.S. and are politically very stable.
> 
> True story.........
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes indeedy.   Bahrain, for example, is kept 'very politically stable' by the sunni rulers violently supressing demonstrations by the shia majority.   And bringing in Saudi (i e sunni) army units to help them.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Of course they need to keep stability in Bahrain, The US 5th fleet has it's base there Commander, U.S. Naval Forces Central/ U.S. 5th Fleet
Click to expand...


Bahrain thus enjoys the benefits of the kafir dollars being spent there.

That's 4.5 acres of Infidel'istan floating in the harbor. 

You're welcome.


----------



## Hollie

Sunni Man said:


> Sweet_Caroline said:
> 
> 
> 
> Persecuted in New England then?
> 
> 
> Thesaurus Legend:  Synonyms Related Words Antonyms
> Noun	1.	*Dar al-harb - areas where Muslims are in the minority and are persecuted*
> 
> 
> 
> But yes, muslims have a difficult time in the U.S.
Click to expand...


It's what Mo' (swish) wanted.

Islam Question and Answer - Can Muslims settle in kaafir countries for the sake of a better life?



> I live in a western country, and I can practice my religion without much difficulty, praise be to Allaah. I have seen on your site some ahaadeeth of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) which forbid Muslims to settle in kaafir lands or to live among the kuffaar.
> 
> 
> 
> Praise be to Allaah.
> 
> The basic principle is that it is not permissible for the Muslim to settle among the mushrikeen. This is indicated by evidence from the Qur&#8217;aan and Sunnah, and on the basis of common sense.
> 
> In the Qur&#8217;aan, Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):
> 
> _&#8220;Verily, as for those whom the angels take (in death) while they are wronging themselves (as they stayed among the disbelievers even though emigration was obligatory for them), they (angels) say (to them): &#8220;In what (condition) were you?&#8221; They reply: &#8220;We were weak and oppressed on the earth.&#8221; They (angels) say: &#8220;Was not the earth of Allaah spacious enough for you to emigrate therein?&#8221; Such men will find their abode in Hell &#8212; what an evil destination!&#8221;_
> 
> [al-Nisa&#8217; 4:97]






... True story.     ......


----------



## Sunni Man

Hollie said:


> Jos said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Peterf said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yes indeedy.   Bahrain, for example, is kept 'very politically stable' by the sunni rulers violently supressing demonstrations by the shia majority.   And bringing in Saudi (i e sunni) army units to help them.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Of course they need to keep stability in Bahrain, The US 5th fleet has it's base there Commander, U.S. Naval Forces Central/ U.S. 5th Fleet
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Bahrain thus enjoys the benefits of the kafir dollars being spent there.
> 
> That's 4.5 acres of Infidel'istan floating in the harbor.
Click to expand...

That's great!!  ..


----------



## Hollie

Sunni Man said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jos said:
> 
> 
> 
> Of course they need to keep stability in Bahrain, The US 5th fleet has it's base there Commander, U.S. Naval Forces Central/ U.S. 5th Fleet
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Bahrain thus enjoys the benefits of the kafir dollars being spent there.
> 
> That's 4.5 acres of Infidel'istan floating in the harbor.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> That's great!!  ..
Click to expand...


Yep. 4.5 acres of Infidel'istan in the harbor tends to have a calming affect on the Mo' (swish) worshipers.

True story.   .........


----------



## Sunni Man

Hollie said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> Bahrain thus enjoys the benefits of the kafir dollars being spent there.
> 
> That's 4.5 acres of Infidel'istan floating in the harbor.
> 
> 
> 
> That's great!!  ..
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yep. 4.5 acres of Infidel'istan in the harbor tends to have a calming affect on the Mo' (swish) worshipers.
Click to expand...

Naw.....they just like bilking the infidels out of their money.  ..


----------



## Hollie

Sunni Man said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> 
> That's great!!  ..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yep. 4.5 acres of Infidel'istan in the harbor tends to have a calming affect on the Mo' (swish) worshipers.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Naw.....they just like bilking the infidels out of their money.  ..
Click to expand...


Not true, mushrikeen boy.

The kafir dollars present a huge source of income. 

Were you born this ignorant or is it a work in progress?

......


----------



## MJB12741

Right you are, not in America.  If the followers of peaceful Islam try bombing our churches or Synagogues it will be open season on American Muslims.





Roudy said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well at least it wasn't bombed or burned down like Muslims do to Christian Churches.
> 
> 
> 
> Please provide the date and location of any Christian churches that muslims have bombed or burned down here in America??  ...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I didn't mean America, idiot.
> 
> Muslims regularly blow up churches and persecute Christians in Muslim countries.  Don't act like you don't know about it, or that it doesn't happen.
Click to expand...


----------



## Hollie

Sunni Man said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> 
> But yes, muslims have a difficult time in the U.S.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's what Mo' (swish) wanted.
> 
> Islam Question and Answer - Can Muslims settle in kaafir countries for the sake of a better life?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I live in a western country, and I can practice my religion without much difficulty, praise be to Allaah. I have seen on your site some ahaadeeth of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) which forbid Muslims to settle in kaafir lands or to live among the kuffaar.
> 
> Praise be to Allaah.
> 
> The basic principle is that it is not permissible for the Muslim to settle among the mushrikeen. This is indicated by evidence from the Quraan and Sunnah, and on the basis of common sense.
> 
> In the Quraan, Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):
> 
> _Verily, as for those whom the angels take (in death) while they are wronging themselves (as they stayed among the disbelievers even though emigration was obligatory for them), they (angels) say (to them): In what (condition) were you? They reply: We were weak and oppressed on the earth. They (angels) say: Was not the earth of Allaah spacious enough for you to emigrate therein? Such men will find their abode in Hell  what an evil destination!_
> 
> [al-Nisa 4:97]
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> It's comical how you misrepresent and twist Islamic theology in order to try and convince the people here that you are some kind if expert about Islam.  ..
Click to expand...


What's really comical is your pretentious behavior. 

You have made it abundantly clear that you know virtually nothing about the politico-religious ideology you converted to. You're really just a self-hating, confused little boy who finds solace in an ideology that appeals to social misfits.


----------



## Sunni Man

MJB12741 said:


> Right you are, not in America.  If the followers of peaceful Islam try bombing our churches or Synagogues it will be open season on American Muslims.


*LOL......another Internet Rambo*  ..


----------



## Staidhup

Look at it this way what right do they or we have in imposing our moral beliefs on another. I for one find it despicable and unacceptable however whom am I to judge.


----------



## Coyote

Hollie said:


> Peterf said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> Actually, many of them didn't bother to condemn said gentleman.  They jump right onto the Islamophobia bandwagon.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I have a phobia.  My hands start to sweat and I get all twitchy every time I see the idiot word 'islamophobia' being used.   On the other hand my contempt for and hearty dislike of Islam is based on stark reality: periods of residence in two Islamic countries - Iran and Kuwait, since you ask.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Agreed. "That's islamophobic" has become a favored canard for moslems who wish to deflect and/or sidestep legitimate criticism of Islam and it's proscriptions.
Click to expand...


So does that mean "anti-semitic" has become a favored canard for Jews who wish to deflect and/or sidestep legitimate criticism of Israel?


----------



## Coyote

S.J. said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> S.J. said:
> 
> 
> 
> Links?  You're on one of them right now.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cop out.
> 
> In other words you have no links to posts here supporting pedophilia.  It's baseless.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Your (and Sunni Man's) comments on this thread speak for themselves.  On the one hand, you say you don't defend it, but then you proceed to defend those who engage in it, deny it happens, and try to deflect by attacking Jews.
Click to expand...


Please provide exact quotes that indicate - in your words - that we support child rape.

Please provide exact quotes where we  have defended CHILD RAPISTS.

Like I said - it's time to put up or shut up with your accusations.

And, I might add - I have NOT attacked Jews.

If you can't find those quotes, I'll accept an apology for those baseless and vulgar accusations.


----------



## Hollie

Coyote said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Peterf said:
> 
> 
> 
> I have a phobia.  My hands start to sweat and I get all twitchy every time I see the idiot word 'islamophobia' being used.   On the other hand my contempt for and hearty dislike of Islam is based on stark reality: periods of residence in two Islamic countries - Iran and Kuwait, since you ask.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Agreed. "That's islamophobic" has become a favored canard for moslems who wish to deflect and/or sidestep legitimate criticism of Islam and it's proscriptions.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> So does that mean "anti-semitic" has become a favored canard for Jews who wish to deflect and/or sidestep legitimate criticism of Israel?
Click to expand...


Your attempt at deflection is weak. Arabs are generally considered a semitic people. This may come as a surprise to you but islamism is a politico-religious ideology, not an ethnicity.


----------



## Coyote

Hollie said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> Agreed. "That's islamophobic" has become a favored canard for moslems who wish to deflect and/or sidestep legitimate criticism of Islam and it's proscriptions.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So does that mean "anti-semitic" has become a favored canard for Jews who wish to deflect and/or sidestep legitimate criticism of Israel?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Your attempt at deflection is weak. Arabs are generally considered a semitic people. This may come as a surprise to you but islamism is a politico-religious ideology, not an ethnicity.
Click to expand...


So exposing hypocrisy is "deflection".  Nice 

And, just as an fyi - Judaism is a religion.


----------



## Sunni Man

Hollie said:


> *Your attempt at deflection is weak.* Arabs are generally considered a semitic people. This may come as a surprise to you but islamism is a politico-religious ideology, not an ethnicity.


The only thing that is 'weak' is that empty goard between your ears. ..


----------



## Hollie

Staidhup said:


> Look at it this way what right do they or we have in imposing our moral beliefs on another. I for one find it despicable and unacceptable however whom am I to judge.



I do judge. I make judgements every day about the things that affect me. 

I make judgements about living in the West where I have no real expectation of being the victim of an honor killing or an acid attack or a suicide bomber attacking me. I have no real expectation of being forced into a marriage to a relative or sold to the highest bidder. I have no real expectation of being the victim of religious discrimination. The West protects my right to practice any religion of choice (or no religion) without compulsion. The very rights Moslems demand for themselves, they explicitly deny non-Moslems living in Moslem Lands. It is truly comical to read the posts of those who demand rights and freedoms be granted to them while they cynically and explicitly refuse to extend those same rights to others.

So yes, I certainly do make judgements.


----------



## Coyote

Hollie said:


> Staidhup said:
> 
> 
> 
> Look at it this way what right do they or we have in imposing our moral beliefs on another. I for one find it despicable and unacceptable however whom am I to judge.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I do judge. I make judgements every day about the things that affect me.
> 
> I make judgements about living in the West where I have no real expectation of being the victim of an honor killing or an acid attack or a suicide bomber attacking me. I have no real expectation of being forced into a marriage to a relative or sold to the highest bidder. I have no real expectation of being the victim of religious discrimination. The West protects my right to practice any religion of choice (or no religion) without compulsion. The very rights Moslems demand for themselves, they explicitly deny non-Moslems living in Moslem Lands*. It is truly comical to read the posts of those who demand rights and freedoms be granted to them while they cynically and explicitly refuse to extend those same rights to others.*
> 
> So yes, I certainly do make judgements.
Click to expand...


You do realize, that like with most religions, there is a difference between those in one country and in another?  American Muslims, for example feel very strongly about the rights and freedoms that America grants, including freedom of religion.

American Muslims demand no more rights and freedoms than any other religious groups nor do they as a rule, deny those same rights to others.

In fact, at this time, unfortunately it is the Christian majority (not the Jews) in this country who are seeking to deny Muslims the same rights and freedoms they themselves enjoy whether it's burning mosques, intimidating individuals with hateful graffitti, attempting to deny the construction of new Mosques or attacking women for wearing headscarves.


----------



## Hollie

Sunni Man said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> *Your attempt at deflection is weak.* Arabs are generally considered a semitic people. This may come as a surprise to you but islamism is a politico-religious ideology, not an ethnicity.
> 
> 
> 
> The only thing that is 'weak' is that empty goard between your ears. ..
Click to expand...


Typically pointless. How interesting that you're a convert who lives in the U.S. which provides you uncounted opportunities simply not available in Islamist/moslem nations.

Your credibility is clearly suspect as it applies to this topic. You may well flail your pom poms for the merits of a crushingly oppressive, theocratic government yet in the U.S. you are protected (by law) from the very atrocities, indignation and injustices imposed by those orthodox islamic regimes you endorse.

....true story .....


----------



## Sunni Man

Hollie said:


> I make judgements about living in the West where I have no real expectation of being the victim of an honor killing or an acid attack or a suicide bomber attacking me. I have no real expectation of being forced into a marriage to a relative or sold to the highest bidder. I have no real expectation of being the victim of religious discrimination. The West protects my right to practice any religion of choice (or no religion) without compulsion.


It's not paranoia if someone is really out to get you.  ..


----------



## toastman

Hollie said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> *Your attempt at deflection is weak.* Arabs are generally considered a semitic people. This may come as a surprise to you but islamism is a politico-religious ideology, not an ethnicity.
> 
> 
> 
> The only thing that is 'weak' is that empty goard between your ears. ..
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Typically pointless. How interesting that you're a convert who lives in the U.S. which provides you uncounted opportunities simply not available in Islamist/moslem nations.
> 
> Your credibility is clearly suspect as it applies to this topic. You may well flail your pom poms for the merits of a crushingly oppressive, theocratic government yet in the U.S. you are protected (by law) from the very atrocities, indignation and injustices imposed by those orthodox islamic regimes you endorse.
> 
> ....true story .....
Click to expand...


It's like you're talking to a 9 year old with Sunni Man, isn't it ?


----------



## Sunni Man

Hollie said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> *Your attempt at deflection is weak.* Arabs are generally considered a semitic people. This may come as a surprise to you but islamism is a politico-religious ideology, not an ethnicity.
> 
> 
> 
> The only thing that is 'weak' is that empty goard between your ears. ..
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Typically pointless. How interesting that you're a convert who lives in the U.S. which provides you uncounted opportunities simply not available in Islamist/moslem nations.
> 
> Your credibility is clearly suspect as it applies to this topic. You may well flail your pom poms for the merits of a crushingly oppressive, theocratic government yet in the U.S. you are protected (by law) from the very atrocities, indignation and injustices imposed by those orthodox islamic regimes you endorse.
Click to expand...

Clearly, you are awed by my presence; .........and jealous of my choices in life.

And seek to validate your pathetic existence by trying to find fault in a religion you barely understand.  

Kinda sad when you think about it.  ..


----------



## Hollie

Coyote said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Staidhup said:
> 
> 
> 
> Look at it this way what right do they or we have in imposing our moral beliefs on another. I for one find it despicable and unacceptable however whom am I to judge.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I do judge. I make judgements every day about the things that affect me.
> 
> I make judgements about living in the West where I have no real expectation of being the victim of an honor killing or an acid attack or a suicide bomber attacking me. I have no real expectation of being forced into a marriage to a relative or sold to the highest bidder. I have no real expectation of being the victim of religious discrimination. The West protects my right to practice any religion of choice (or no religion) without compulsion. The very rights Moslems demand for themselves, they explicitly deny non-Moslems living in Moslem Lands*. It is truly comical to read the posts of those who demand rights and freedoms be granted to them while they cynically and explicitly refuse to extend those same rights to others.*
> 
> So yes, I certainly do make judgements.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You do realize, that like with most religions, there is a difference between those in one country and in another?  American Muslims, for example feel very strongly about the rights and freedoms that America grants, including freedom of religion.
> 
> American Muslims demand no more rights and freedoms than any other religious groups nor do they as a rule, deny those same rights to others.
> 
> In fact, at this time, unfortunately it is the Christian majority (not the Jews) in this country who are seeking to deny Muslims the same rights and freedoms they themselves enjoy whether it's burning mosques, intimidating individuals with hateful graffitti, attempting to deny the construction of new Mosques or attacking women for wearing headscarves.
Click to expand...


I actually didnt realize that you were tasked with being the spokes-moslem for American Moslems. Such a weighty burden you bear. As said spokes-moslem, I can agree that moslems may feel strongly about American freedoms  the same freedoms their politico-religious ideology denies non-moslems across the islamist Middle East.

So hey, thank Allah someone is _finally_ stepping up to protect the aggrieved, downtrodden race of Islam. Happy flying, America.


Secondly, Moslems in the West, particularly in Europe, certainly do demand more rights and freedoms than any other religious groups. If you crawl out from under your burqa, you might have noticed the circus that France and the Netherlands when moslems demanded their right to bring their symbols of oppression (the burqa), into the public domain.

In fact, at this time, it is you who is confused regarding your conspiracy theory that Christians (and well include those crafty Joooos just because you will be that much more incensed), are attempting to --Ill take a deep breath here -- burn mosques, intimidate individuals with hateful graffitti, attempting to deny the construction of new Mosques or attacking women for wearing headscarves. breathe in.

My experience is that your conspiracy theory regarding construction of mosques is typically a function of local zoning and Land Use codes that affect new construction. As to burning mosques, those are rare circumstances and it becomes a law enforcement issue. Why dont you thrill us with a comprehensive list of the number of Christian Copt churches that were burned to the ground or vandalized in Egypt and the law enforcement efforts expended to bring the _Peaceful Inner Strugglers_ to justice.

I think its important to explicitly and consciously "take sides". I take a side opposite to a belligerent politico-religious ideology whose adherents are perpetually aggrieved members of humanity who see every exercise of personal or religious freedom as an insult to them. September 11, 2001, carved into the American mind a particular image of Islamist militancy: the moslem terrorist mass murder. Like the noisy, publicized, professional whiners and haters that we see who find any excuse to riot and cause mayhem, that image has obscured the many smaller, but in aggregate more dangerous, threats that Western societies face from Islamism. Moslems are cowed by their pious/fundamentalist brethren both theologically and physically. They will not rise against those among them who, in the simplest reading of Islamist scriptures, are the ones practicing authentic Islam. They wouldn't do so even if the balance of weaponry and willingness to fight were the reverse of what it is today.


----------



## Sunni Man

toastman said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> 
> The only thing that is 'weak' is that empty goard between your ears. ..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Typically pointless. How interesting that you're a convert who lives in the U.S. which provides you uncounted opportunities simply not available in Islamist/moslem nations.
> 
> Your credibility is clearly suspect as it applies to this topic. You may well flail your pom poms for the merits of a crushingly oppressive, theocratic government yet in the U.S. you are protected (by law) from the very atrocities, indignation and injustices imposed by those orthodox islamic regimes you endorse.
> 
> ....true story .....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> It's like you're talking to a 9 year old with Sunni Man, isn't it ?
Click to expand...

And yet, day after day you continue to engage me on threads in order to gain knowledge.  ..


----------



## Hollie

Sunni Man said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> 
> The only thing that is 'weak' is that empty goard between your ears. ..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Typically pointless. How interesting that you're a convert who lives in the U.S. which provides you uncounted opportunities simply not available in Islamist/moslem nations.
> 
> Your credibility is clearly suspect as it applies to this topic. You may well flail your pom poms for the merits of a crushingly oppressive, theocratic government yet in the U.S. you are protected (by law) from the very atrocities, indignation and injustices imposed by those orthodox islamic regimes you endorse.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Clearly, you are awed by my presence; .........and jealous of my choices in life.
> 
> And seek to validate your pathetic existence by trying to find fault in a religion you barely understand.
> 
> Kinda sad when you think about it.  ..
Click to expand...

Well, actually, what's sad is your excuses for pointless banter.


Islam is the one ideology out of all ideologies in mankind's long history that has clung to a fantastic notion of being above the scrutiny of reason, the honesty of criticism, and the fairness of self-examination. Christianity, Judaism, all manner of secular political systems, and more have all passed through the crucible of analysis, reform, and expiation. 

Not surprising then that a social misfit who claims to want sharia in the U.S. has no intention of living where sharia _really is_ the law.

What a coward you are.


----------



## Hollie

Sunni Man said:


> toastman said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> Typically pointless. How interesting that you're a convert who lives in the U.S. which provides you uncounted opportunities simply not available in Islamist/moslem nations.
> 
> Your credibility is clearly suspect as it applies to this topic. You may well flail your pom poms for the merits of a crushingly oppressive, theocratic government yet in the U.S. you are protected (by law) from the very atrocities, indignation and injustices imposed by those orthodox islamic regimes you endorse.
> 
> ....true story .....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's like you're talking to a 9 year old with Sunni Man, isn't it ?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> And yet, day after day you continue to engage me on threads in order to gain knowledge.  ..
Click to expand...


Not at all. I just decide to confront your vulgarity when you leave your vile PM's.

You're just an unfortunate social misfit


... true story...


----------



## Sunni Man

.........................................................^^^^


----------



## Coyote

Hollie said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> I do judge. I make judgements every day about the things that affect me.
> 
> I make judgements about living in the West where I have no real expectation of being the victim of an &#8220;honor killing&#8221; or an acid attack or a suicide bomber attacking me. I have no real expectation of being forced into a marriage to a relative or sold to the highest bidder. I have no real expectation of being the victim of religious discrimination. The West protects my right to practice any religion of choice (or no religion) without compulsion. The very rights Moslems demand for themselves, they explicitly deny non-Moslems living in &#8220;Moslem Lands&#8221;&#8482;*. It is truly comical to read the posts of those who demand rights and freedoms be granted to them while they cynically and explicitly refuse to extend those same rights to others.*
> 
> So yes, I certainly do make judgements.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You do realize, that like with most religions, there is a difference between those in one country and in another?  American Muslims, for example feel very strongly about the rights and freedoms that America grants, including freedom of religion.
> 
> American Muslims demand no more rights and freedoms than any other religious groups nor do they as a rule, deny those same rights to others.
> 
> In fact, at this time, unfortunately it is the Christian majority (not the Jews) in this country who are seeking to deny Muslims the same rights and freedoms they themselves enjoy whether it's burning mosques, intimidating individuals with hateful graffitti, attempting to deny the construction of new Mosques or attacking women for wearing headscarves.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I actually didn&#8217;t realize that you were tasked with being the spokes-moslem for American Moslems.
Click to expand...


I'm not.  You are being delusional.



> Such a weighty burden you bear. As said spokes-moslem, I can agree that moslems may feel strongly about American freedoms &#8211; the same freedoms their politico-religious ideology denies non-moslems across the islamist Middle East.



Again, you are lumping all Islam into one lump you define as "politico-religious ideology".  That pretty much indicates you have neither the interest nor capacity to explore it's complexities as a religion.  Perhaps barenakedislam.com is your forte.



> So hey, thank Allah someone is _finally_ stepping up to protect the aggrieved, downtrodden &#8220;race&#8221; of Islam. Happy flying, America.






> Secondly, Moslems in the West, particularly in Europe, *certainly do demand more rights and freedoms than any other religious groups.* If you crawl out from under your burqa, you might have noticed the circus that France and the Netherlands when moslems demanded their &#8220;right&#8221; to bring their symbols of oppression (the burqa), into the public domain.



Well no, they don't.  They demand the same.

If women want to wear a burqa (and that really is a minority) - so what?



> In fact, at this time, it is you who is confused regarding your conspiracy theory that Christians (and we&#8217;ll include those crafty Joooos&#8230; just because you will be that much more incensed), are attempting to --I&#8217;ll take a deep breath here -- burn mosques, intimidate individuals with hateful graffitti, attempting to deny the construction of new Mosques or attacking women for wearing headscarves&#8230;. breathe in.



No.  I am not the least confused and readily recognize the red flags of conspiracy theories.  Also, I know how to spell Jews.  It's J. e. w. s. - really, it's not difficult and I'm typically one of the worst spellers here.

There is plenty of evidence of an increase in hate crimes towards Muslims both here and in Europe.  Links to these (in your mind) imaginary conflagrations have been supplied.  More can be supplied to provide you with fodder from which to convince us it's all a conspiracy thoery 



> My experience is that your conspiracy theory regarding construction of mosques is typically a function of local zoning and Land Use codes that affect new construction.



Well...how STRANGE. When people put together huge petitions to prevent the building of a Mosque in a region where churches are plentiful...it's just zoning eh?



> As to burning mosques, those are rare circumstances and it becomes a law enforcement issue.



Oh right...they are rare.  It's not "hate" - it's "law enforcement".  Kind of like the mass murder at the Sikh Temple because the guy thought they were Muslims. 



> Why don&#8217;t you thrill us with a comprehensive list of the number of Christian Copt churches that were burned to the ground or vandalized in Egypt and the law enforcement efforts expended to bring the _Peaceful Inner Strugglers_&#8482; to justice.



I have desire to "thrill" you with anything because we are talking about AMERICA.  The USA.  And the rights and freedoms we value - yes we, as in all of us - including Muslims.  Is that really so hard to understand?


----------



## Hollie

Sunni Man said:


> .........................................................^^^^



There is an obvious concern regarding wannabe converts just like you, people who will denigrate a successful and stable secular democratic system of government in favor of a complete and utter failure which describes Sharia, people like you who will not add anything of value to Western culture either intellectually or economically.


----------



## Sunni Man

Hollie said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> 
> .........................................................^^^^
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There is an obvious concern regarding wannabe converts just like you, people who will denigrate a successful and stable secular democratic system of government in favor of a complete and utter failure which describes Sharia, people like you who will not add anything of value to Western culture either intellectually or economically.
Click to expand...

.............................................................^^^^ Poor baby.....


----------



## Hollie

coyote said:


> you do realize, that like with most religions, there is a difference between those in one country and in another?  American muslims, for example feel very strongly about the rights and freedoms that america grants, including freedom of religion.
> 
> American muslims demand no more rights and freedoms than any other religious groups nor do they as a rule, deny those same rights to others.
> 
> In fact, at this time, unfortunately it is the christian majority (not the jews) in this country who are seeking to deny muslims the same rights and freedoms they themselves enjoy whether it's burning mosques, intimidating individuals with hateful graffitti, attempting to deny the construction of new mosques or attacking women for wearing headscarves.





> i actually didn&#8217;t realize that you were tasked with being the spokes-moslem for american moslems.





> i'm not.  You are being delusional.


You were the one claiming you were speaking for american moslems. Did you forget what you wrote?





> again, you are lumping all islam into one lump you define as "politico-religious ideology".  That pretty much indicates you have neither the interest nor capacity to explore it's complexities as a religion.  Perhaps barenakedislam.com is your forte.


Again, islamism is a politico-religious ideology. Your not understanding that indicates your ignorance of the ideology.

One excellent quality of the Great Satan&Trade is our all-embracing pluralism. Many diverse people living together freely, "indivisible, with liberty and justice for all," is a unique cultural phenomenon that fosters an environment in which brilliant people may nurture their special talents.

And so, we find American moslems being arrested and charged with supporting the islamic terror of global jihad. Some of them are among the best and brightest in the sphere of islamic advocacy. Take Rabih Haddad for instance, cofounder of the now defunct global relief foundation and michigan fundraiser for the council on american-islamic relations (cair). Mr. Haddad was shown the door (to lebanon) because of the dubious pathways and destinations of the zakat collected by his organization. 

Ghassan Elashi comes to mind. He was the chairman of hamas front group, the holy land foundation, which was the largest american islamic "relief" organization before it was brought down by the feds. He was also one of the founding members of cair itself. Mr. Elashi, along with four of his brothers, has been convicted on numerous terror charges after which he is enjoying a lifelong stay at dar al-slammer. 




>



a compelling argument.





> well no, they don't.  They demand the same.
> 
> If women want to wear a burqa (and that really is a minority) - so what?



Some European nations don't allow it. That's so what. 







> no.  I am not the least confused and readily recognize the red flags of conspiracy theories.  Also, i know how to spell jews.  It's j. E. W. S. - really, it's not difficult and i'm typically one of the worst spellers here.


Actually, you're edging into that really dark place where conspiracy theorists tread.






> there is plenty of evidence of an increase in hate crimes towards muslims both here and in europe.  Links to these (in your mind) imaginary conflagrations have been supplied.  More can be supplied to provide you with fodder from which to convince us it's all a conspiracy thoery


if you're a victim of a hate crime, call the police.

But if it would make you feel better about yourself and your victimhood, make a list.







> well...how strange. When people put together huge petitions to prevent the building of a mosque in a region where churches are plentiful...it's just zoning eh?


You're a little light on facts in connection with this conspiracy theory. 

But that aside, freedom of expression does allow people to sign petitions. It seems you're all for freedom of expression as long as you are the only one allowed to express an opinion.





> As to burning mosques, those are rare circumstances and it becomes a law enforcement issue.





> oh right...they are rare.  It's not "hate" - it's "law enforcement".  Kind of like the mass murder at the sikh temple because the guy thought they were muslims.


Here's a bit of enlightenment for you: People make bad choices. 



> why don&#8217;t you thrill us with a comprehensive list of the number of christian copt churches that were burned to the ground or vandalized in egypt and the law enforcement efforts expended to bring the _peaceful inner strugglers_&#8482; to justice.





> i have desire to "thrill" you with anything because we are talking about america.  The usa.  And the rights and freedoms we value - yes we, as in all of us - including muslims.  Is that really so hard to understand?


now we're talking about the islamist middle east. Oddly, where your politico-religious holds strength of numbers, there is no "we".


I think it&#8217;s important to explicitly and consciously "take sides". I take a side opposite to a belligerent politico-religious ideology whose adherents are perpetually aggrieved members of humanity who see every exercise of personal or religious freedom as an insult to them. September 11, 2001, carved into the american mind a particular image of islamist militancy: The moslem terrorist mass murder. Like the noisy, publicized, professional whiners and haters that we see who find any excuse to riot and cause mayhem, that image has obscured the many smaller, but in aggregate more dangerous, threats that western societies face from islamism. Moslems are cowed by their pious/fundamentalist brethren both theologically and physically. They will not rise against those among them who, in the simplest reading of islamist scriptures, are the ones practicing authentic islam. They wouldn't do so even if the balance of weaponry and willingness to fight were the reverse of what it is today.[/quote]


----------



## Hollie

Sunni Man said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> 
> .........................................................^^^^
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There is an obvious concern regarding wannabe converts just like you, people who will denigrate a successful and stable secular democratic system of government in favor of a complete and utter failure which describes Sharia, people like you who will not add anything of value to Western culture either intellectually or economically.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> .............................................................^^^^ Poor baby.....
Click to expand...


As long as you refuse to take responsibility for your problems, you will remain the impotent little victim you choose to be.


----------



## Coyote

Hollie said:


> you were the one claiming you were speaking for american moslems. Did you forget what you wrote?



I know exactly what I wrote.



> again, islamism is a politico-religious ideology. Your not understanding that indicates your ignorance of the ideology.



Islam is a religion.  Your failure to understand that does not constitute ignorance on my part.



> One excellent quality of the great satan&trade is our all-embracing pluralism. Many diverse people living together freely, "indivisible, with liberty and justice for all," is a unique cultural phenomenon that fosters an environment in which brilliant people may nurture their special talents.
> 
> And so, we find american moslems being arrested and charged with supporting the islamic terror of global jihad. Some of them are among the best and brightest in the sphere of islamic advocacy. Take rabih haddad for instance, cofounder of the now defunct global relief foundation and michigan fundraiser for the council on american-islamic relations (cair). Mr. Haddad was shown the door (to lebanon) because of the dubious pathways and destinations of the zakat collected by his organization.
> 
> Ghassan elashi comes to mind. He was the chairman of hamas front group, the holy land foundation, which was the largest american islamic "relief" organization before it was brought down by the feds. He was also one of the founding members of cair itself. Mr. Elashi, along with four of his brothers, has been convicted on numerous terror charges after which he will enjoying a lifelong stay at dar al-slammer.



Oh.  Look who's speaking for American Muslims now.

Maybe we should let them speak for themselves: Muslim Americans: No Signs of Growth in Alienation or Support for Extremism | Pew Research Center for the People and the Press



> a compelling argument.
> some european nations don't allow it. That's so what.



And why?

Religious bigotry?



> actually, you're edging into that really dark place where conspiracy theorists tread.



So....because I spell "Jews" as "Jews" and not "Jooooooooooos" I am now edging into conspiracy theory?



> if you're a victim of a hate crime, call the police.



So....what's your point?



> But if it would make you feel better about yourself and your victimhood, make a list.



What are you talking about?  Are you saying that hate crimes are  non existant?  We're all a kumbaya nation of brotherhood?  There is no racism, anti-semitism, islamophobia?



> you're a little light on facts in connection with this conspiracy theory.



Not at all.  But then, I'm not the one reading conspiracy theory into how one spells "Jews" 



> But that aside, freedom of expression does allow people to sign petitions. It seems you're all for freedom of expression as long as you are the only one allowed to express an opinion.



Nice try, but - that's not exactly the issue and your overly dependent on talking points and assumptions rather than what I actually say.  The issue is that these petitions are induce lawmakers curtail the religious freedoms of groups they don't like, like preventing the building of Mosques and legislating "anti-sharia" laws.  Strangely, it seldom happens to churches or synagogues.  But hey - you are free to believe in your Alice in Wonderland fantasies 



> here's a bit of enlightenment for you: People make bad choices.



They sure do.  And innocent people die because of it.  Too bad it wasn't real Muslims right?



> now we're talking about the islamist middle east. Oddly, where your politico-religious holds strength of numbers, there is no "we".



I'm sticking to America and American Muslims - that is what my discussion pertains to.



> I think it&#8217;s important to explicitly and consciously "take sides". I take a side opposite to a belligerent politico-religious ideology whose adherents are perpetually aggrieved members of humanity who see every exercise of personal or religious freedom as an insult to them. September 11, 2001, carved into the american mind a particular image of islamist militancy: The moslem terrorist mass murder. Like the noisy, publicized, professional whiners and haters that we see who find any excuse to riot and cause mayhem, that image has obscured the many smaller, but in aggregate more dangerous, threats that western societies face from islamism. Moslems are cowed by their pious/fundamentalist brethren both theologically and physically. They will not rise against those among them who, in the simplest reading of islamist scriptures, are the ones practicing authentic islam. They wouldn't do so even if the balance of weaponry and willingness to fight were the reverse of what it is today.



I think it's important to understand that the major world religions are not monolithic but multi-faceted and complex.  As a result, I "taking sides" against an entire religion is, in my opinion, wrong.  I would rather take each person individually - whether Christian, Jewish, or Muslim.  There is a lot to learn from all of them and they share the same core values and historical roots.


----------



## SherriMunnerlyn

Hollie said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> There is an obvious concern regarding wannabe converts just like you, people who will denigrate a successful and stable secular democratic system of government in favor of a complete and utter failure which describes &#8220;Sharia&#8221;, people like you who will not add anything of value to Western culture either intellectually or economically.
> 
> 
> 
> .............................................................^^^^ Poor baby.....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> As long as you refuse to take responsibility for your problems, you will remain the impotent little victim you choose to be.
Click to expand...


A Zionist speaking about the victimhood of another, now that is funny! Maybe, that is the problem, you cannot see/accept anyone but a Jew being a victim.


----------



## Roudy

Sunni-hole


> another Internet Rambo...



So what does that make you?  Internet Jihadi moron?  Ha ha ha.


----------



## Peterf

Coyote said:


> Peterf said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> Actually, many of them didn't bother to condemn said gentleman.  They jump right onto the Islamophobia bandwagon.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I have a phobia.  My hands start to sweat and I get all twitchy every time I see the idiot word 'islamophobia' being used.   On the other hand my contempt for and hearty dislike of Islam is based on stark reality: periods of residence in two Islamic countries - Iran and Kuwait, since you ask.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> What else would you call bigotry against Muslims?  Or are you saying it doesn't exist?  Does anti-semitism exist?
Click to expand...


I have nothing against Muslims  - I have known some very nice ones.   It's Islam that I intensly dislike.   That's no more 'bigotry' than is my hatred of Communism and Naziism,  two other mind-dominating cultures.


Anti-semitism is hatred of Jews.   It is not contempt for Judaism and the Old Testament.


----------



## Hollie

Coyote said:


> I know exactly what I wrote.


Review what you wrote, then. You were writing about American moslems with the inclusive we, description. 





> Islam is a religion.  Your failure to understand that does not constitute ignorance on my part.


Islam is not just a religion but a complete way of life. Didnt you get the email?

It is an exhaustively complete and thorough way of life, covering everything from personal hygiene, sexual relations, to public legalities, sociality, a penal code, political matters, religious worship, and warfare. In a manner that one would not be amiss in describing as borderline obsessive-compulsive disorder, Islam has a prescription or proscription for anything that may happen in a person's life. And all with the weight of God's command. Politics, religion, personal relations, society, and war are all interwoven into the monolithic tapestry of Islam. It is the ultimate authoritarianism, with God as the supreme leader, and his people as the elite on Earth. There are provisions for monotheists (with a book, i.e., the Bible) to live _under_ Islamic "protection" as second-class citizens called dhimmis, but it is a matter of subjugation, humiliation, privation, and sometimes elimination. 






> Oh.  Look who's speaking for American Muslims now.
> 
> Maybe we should let them speak for themselves: Muslim Americans: No Signs of Growth in Alienation or Support for Extremism | Pew Research Center for the People and the Press



Polls are nice. What a shame that Tsarnaev brothers didn't read that poll. 





> And why?
> 
> Religious bigotry?


There is nothing bigoted about banning symbols of oppression and misogyny.  In particular with the French ban on the burqa, I remember reading commentaries that addressed their reasons. What they saw were Moslems one sided claims to entitlements and demands for special treatment. They saw demands for the allowance of religious symbols in secular school systems. They saw Moslems segregating themselves in communities to be isolated from the host nation so as to minimize exposure to the host nations corruptive influences. They saw moslems importing the societal norms of their nations of origin which are totally contrary to Western standards of equality, tolerance, personal freedoms and rule of law. Yet, the French saw themselves barraged with charges of bigotry and _Racism_ when they reject such religiously inspired things as honor killings, misogynistic treatment of women and an all-consuming politico-religious ideology that Moslems believe must be imposed on all. 





> So....because I spell "Jews" as "Jews" and not "Jooooooooooos" I am now edging into conspiracy theory?


Not at all. You do have this need to force your religious beliefs on others as though you have some entitlement.





> So....what's your point?


The point is, nobodys perfect and crimes happen. 





> What are you talking about?  Are you saying that hate crimes are  non existant?  We're all a kumbaya nation of brotherhood?  There is no racism, anti-semitism, islamophobia?


There is a criminal justice system that deals with crime. In the U.S., justice is overwhelming a matter of law, absent ones religious, ethnic and political leanings. 

Sharia is already established in Islamic Lands. The fact that every incarnation of sharia law being an abject failure in terms of providing justice and equality should tell you something. 
The difference between a secular government and a theocracy like the numerous Moslem ones that are causing so much grief much to the suffering of people the world over is obvious:

Secular governments do not force or compel belief in one particular belief system to the exclusion of others as is the case with Islamic governments. Thats been the history of the Middle East as it applies to theocratic and despotic regimes. The constant warring amongst tribal / religious sects and subdivisions is endless, as is the obstructionism and petty rivalries.





> Not at all.  But then, I'm not the one reading conspiracy theory into how one spells "Jews"


Conspiracy theories seem to be staples among the more islamist of the bunch.




> Nice try, but - that's not exactly the issue and your overly dependent on talking points and assumptions rather than what I actually say.  The issue is that these petitions are induce lawmakers curtail the religious freedoms of groups they don't like, like preventing the building of Mosques and legislating "anti-sharia" laws.  Strangely, it seldom happens to churches or synagogues.  But hey - you are free to believe in your Alice in Wonderland fantasies


Actually, it is the issue. What you demand is for your religious ideology to have a special place of unchallenged authority. You require your religious rights supersede those of others. The manifestation of this doctrine is exhibited in the Moslem revulsion of the infidel. Its why we see the blatant double standards that so define Islam; the demands for exclusive rights and privileges with the attendant refusal to extend the same rights and privileges to the hated infidel. Its why we see playwrights killed in the streets of their homeland, Churches burned, Dhimmis subjected to limited rights and the other atrocities that are endured by the non-Muslim in Moslem Lands.'

Once again, protesting the building of mosques, protesting most anything is a hallmark of a free society. People can have legitimate concerns for protesting. With regularity, you demonstrate that you feel your rights are sacrosanct and not to be challenged.      





> They sure do.  And innocent people die because of it.  Too bad it wasn't real Muslims right?


Yet you cant bring yourself to address the atrocities dealt out to non-moslems in every location where moslems and sharia law are in the majority





> I'm sticking to America and American Muslims - that is what my discussion pertains to.


No doubt. Having to address the nightmare faced by the infidel in moslem lands tends to expose your rather obvious double standards. 

Wouldnt it actually suggest that not addressing those issues is really avoidance? I can clearly make a case for the double standards that Muslims embrace regarding demands to religious freedom in the West, yet clearly suppressing (even violently), the religious freedoms of others in the Islamic Middle East. You exploit that Western held precept of freedom of religion, BTW. 





> I think it's important to understand that the major world religions are not monolithic but multi-faceted and complex.  As a result, I "taking sides" against an entire religion is, in my opinion, wrong.  I would rather take each person individually - whether Christian, Jewish, or Muslim.  There is a lot to learn from all of them and they share the same core values and historical roots.


Thats fine. Although your shared values comment is a bit silly.

Religion in Western cultures is largely a private and personal matter. For the most part it is not often dragged into the public arena or forced upon others as it is in many Islamic majority nations. In a democracy, you can believe (or not) as you wish, and you can expect that right to be honored (even if grudgingly) and protected by law. This is illustrative of the dynamic of religious freedom that simply doesnt exist in much of the Islamic Middle East.

While you may have hoped to deflect the core argument of religious oppression performed by Moslems with your Im talking about American moslems, Its not just a little disingenuous to ignore the reality of islam globally.

At least as it applies to the double standards and overt discrimination that Moslems allow themselves, I do find that distasteful. Its distasteful that many Islamic nations ban or restrict competing religions yet Moslems screech like petulant children, (citing Racism, because as we all know, Islam is a Race), when we in the West insist that no religion is garnered preferential treatment. 

At the very least, we here in the _Great Satan_ have no religious police who will arrest you for practicing your religion of choice. 

What an audacious concept, dont you think? I have my religion (or none), while you have yours. No one gets arrested and we can both mind our business without a (proceeding alphabetically), Ayatollah, Cleric, Emir or Imam rallying the faithful to burn our respective houses down because we dare to worship (or not) as we please.


----------



## Hollie

Sunni Man said:


> No juden should leave home without one..........



How convenient for misfits such as Sunni that the religion he converted to provides a built-in platform for promoting his rabid Jew hatreds.

.....


----------



## Sunni Man

No juden should leave home without one..........


----------



## Hollie

Sunni Man said:


> No juden should leave home without one..........



How convenient that islam has a built-in platform that allows social misfits / converts like Sunni an opportunity to promote their rabid Jew hatreds.


----------



## Sunni Man

Hollie said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> 
> No juden should leave home without one..........
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How convenient that islam has a built-in platform that allows social misfits / converts like Sunni an opportunity to promote their rabid Jew hatreds.
Click to expand...

You sound jealous........


----------



## Hollie

Sunni Man said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> 
> No juden should leave home without one..........
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How convenient that islam has a built-in platform that allows social misfits / converts like Sunni an opportunity to promote their rabid Jew hatreds.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You sound jealous........
Click to expand...


Jealous of a social misfit / goofy convert ?


You sound like you need to convert to a real religion.

.....


----------



## Jos

I hate rabid Jew's too


----------



## Coyote

Peterf said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Peterf said:
> 
> 
> 
> I have a phobia.  My hands start to sweat and I get all twitchy every time I see the idiot word 'islamophobia' being used.   On the other hand my contempt for and hearty dislike of Islam is based on stark reality: periods of residence in two Islamic countries - Iran and Kuwait, since you ask.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What else would you call bigotry against Muslims?  Or are you saying it doesn't exist?  Does anti-semitism exist?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I have nothing against Muslims  - I have known some very nice ones.   It's Islam that I intensly dislike.   That's no more 'bigotry' than is my hatred of Communism and Naziism,  two other mind-dominating cultures.
Click to expand...


You can't exactly seperate Islam from Muslims and how they choose to live and interpret Islam varies considerably around the world.  What you are doing is applying one vision of Islam on all and making a comparison of that to Naziism is highly inaccurate and comtemptable.   



> Anti-semitism is hatred of Jews.   It is not contempt for Judaism and the Old Testament.



You can not seperate the person from the religion and anti-semitism draws from the religion - or, more accurately - distorted views of that religion in order to fire up hate.  It's no different from islamophobia.


----------



## Coyote

Hollie said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> I know exactly what I wrote.
> 
> 
> 
> Review what you wrote, then. You were writing about American moslems with the inclusive we, description.
Click to expand...


Please review what I wrote:


> You do realize, that like with most religions, there is a difference between those in one country and in another? American Muslims, for example feel very strongly about the rights and freedoms that America grants, including freedom of religion.
> 
> American Muslims demand no more rights and freedoms than any other religious groups nor do they as a rule, deny those same rights to others.
> 
> In fact, at this time, unfortunately it is the Christian majority (not the Jews) in this country who are seeking to deny Muslims the same rights and freedoms they themselves enjoy whether it's burning mosques, intimidating individuals with hateful graffitti, attempting to deny the construction of new Mosques or attacking women for wearing headscarves.



It is pretty straight forward and requires no novel interpretations on your part.



> Islam is a religion.  Your failure to understand that does not constitute ignorance on my part.
> 
> 
> 
> Islam is not just a religion but a complete way of life. Didnt you get the email?
Click to expand...


I do not rely on emails for information on religion.



> It is an exhaustively complete and thorough way of life, covering everything from personal hygiene, sexual relations, to public legalities, sociality, a penal code, political matters, religious worship, and warfare. In a manner that one would not be amiss in describing as borderline obsessive-compulsive disorder, Islam has a prescription or proscription for anything that may happen in a person's life. And all with the weight of God's command. Politics, religion, personal relations, society, and war are all interwoven into the monolithic tapestry of Islam. It is the ultimate authoritarianism, with God as the supreme leader, and his people as the elite on Earth. There are provisions for monotheists (with a book, i.e., the Bible) to live _under_ Islamic "protection" as second-class citizens called dhimmis, but it is a matter of subjugation, humiliation, privation, and sometimes elimination.



The degree to which Islam proscribes one's life is dependent on how an individual Muslim chooses to live Islam.  All the Abrahamic faiths are very authoritarian and when followed in their most fundamentalist forms - brutal to outsiders and women.  Christianity is the loosest in terms of rules because it broke away from most of the OT rules and regulations but the OT, which Judaism follows is full of rules covering everything from "personal hygiene, sexual relations, to public legalities".   There is a very interesting, informative and humorous book that is well worth reading: A Year of Living Biblically that discuss much of this.

Islam kept most of its rules from the OT - same roots.  None of the Abrahamic faiths are kind to non-believers and their holy books contain pretty nasty examples of what can happen or should be done to non-believers, particularly if removed from their historical contexts.  The history of Christianity is chock full of "second class" citizenry and in fact, Jews were treated worse under Christianity then Islam (not that either religion is a paragon of virture).  The one key difference is *Christianity and Judaism have matured into largely secular societies and less literal interpretations of doctrine*.  That's a leap Islam is still struggling to make in many parts of the world but given the obvious differences between Muslims in westernized countries and those in developing countries, there is no reason to suspect that it's reformation won't eventually come about.



> Polls are nice. What a shame that Tsarnaev brothers didn't read that poll.



What a shame you didn't either since they reflect what many American Muslims think rather than what people like you, think they think.



> There is nothing bigoted about banning symbols of oppression and misogyny.  In particular with the French ban on the burqa, I remember reading commentaries that addressed their reasons. What they saw were Moslems one sided claims to entitlements and demands for special treatment. They saw demands for the allowance of religious symbols in secular school systems.



Prior to the law, what was allowed?  Could they wear jewelry with crosses?  Yarmakas?  Could orthodox Jews wear headscarves and wigs?  Was it just when Muslims became a large enough population that people objected to their wearing symbals of religion?



> They saw Moslems segregating themselves in communities to be isolated from the host nation so as to minimize exposure to the host nations corruptive influences.



Actually - there is a bit more to it.  They segrated themselves but they were also segregated by traditional french society and choices of jobs available to them which perpetrated the ethnic isolation.  It's a two-way street and a problem that France is struggling to deal with.



> They saw moslems importing the societal norms of their nations of origin which are totally contrary to Western standards of equality, tolerance, personal freedoms and rule of law.



I agree that that is a problem with France.  Unlike the US, France's immigrants come from very different backgrounds.  I believe France's immigration law allows people from any of their former colonies to immigrate to France and they are getting a large  number of very poor, rural, uneducated immigrants who bring with them the cultural values of their homelands.  Immigrant communities vary a great deal.



> Yet, the French saw themselves barraged with charges of bigotry and _Racism_ when they reject such religiously inspired things as honor killings, misogynistic treatment of women and an all-consuming politico-religious ideology that Moslems believe must be imposed on all.



The French have never been charged with "bigotry" and "racism" for rejecting "honor killings".  That right there is a lie.

In addition, "honor killings" are not religiously inspired.  There is nothing in the religious texts of Islam that sanctifies them.  They are a cultural remnant of a medievil society and should be rightfully condemned.  They are also, in western countries rare, despite being sensationalized in the media. 



> Not at all. You do have this need to force your religious beliefs on others as though you have some entitlement.



*My* religious beliefs?

Talk about entitlement. Pot. Kettle. Black. 

You don't have a clue lady.



> The point is, nobodys perfect and crimes happen.



I'll remember that when you bring up the Boston Bombing.



> There is a criminal justice system that deals with crime. In the U.S., justice is overwhelming a matter of law, absent ones religious, ethnic and political leanings.
> 
> Sharia is already established in Islamic Lands. The fact that every incarnation of sharia law being an abject failure in terms of providing justice and equality should tell you something.



Sharia is not "one law" - it's application and interpretation vary widely across Islam.  For example, in many areas Sharia is used primarily in civil matters - marriage, divorce, inheritance, banking while the penal code is secular.  In other areas - Saudi Arabia and Iran, it's far more extreme and obviously barbaric.  In general it's application by Islamists has been a failure (Egypt and Tunisia) - rejected by it's people.  If you are talking about Sharia in it's extreme - I totally agree with you.  But I am also a proponant of secular systems of law being supreme.



> The difference between a secular government and a theocracy like the numerous Moslem ones that are causing so much grief much to the suffering of people the world over is obvious:
> 
> Secular governments do not force or compel belief in one particular belief system to the exclusion of others as is the case with Islamic governments. Thats been the history of the Middle East as it applies to theocratic and despotic regimes. The constant warring amongst tribal / religious sects and subdivisions is endless, as is the obstructionism and petty rivalries.



We are in agreement here.  I am 100% behind secular systems of law.



> Conspiracy theories seem to be staples among the more islamist of the bunch.



They are also the staple fare of anti-semites and islamophobes.



> Actually, it is the issue. What you demand is for your religious ideology to have a special place of unchallenged authority.



The only demand I make, is that we follow one of our most cherished rights: freedom of religion.  And that it applies to all equally.



> You require your religious rights supersede those of others.



I require nothing of the kind.  Though I'm puzzled as to why you think you know what I "require" or "demand" in absence of any information on my part.  Could it be your own bias' inserting themselves into my words?



> The manifestation of this doctrine is exhibited in the Moslem revulsion of the infidel. Its why we see the blatant double standards that so define Islam; the demands for exclusive rights and privileges with the attendant refusal to extend the same rights and privileges to the hated infidel. Its why we see playwrights killed in the streets of their homeland, Churches burned, Dhimmis subjected to limited rights and the other atrocities that are endured by the non-Muslim in Moslem Lands.'



All religions have their blatent double standards and hypocrosies.  History is chock full of it.  



> Once again, protesting the building of mosques, protesting most anything is a hallmark of a free society. People can have legitimate concerns for protesting. With regularity, you demonstrate that you feel your rights are sacrosanct and not to be challenged.



At what point does religious protesting become religious bigotry?



> Yet you cant bring yourself to address the atrocities dealt out to non-moslems in every location where moslems and sharia law are in the majority



Not at all.  I just refuse to let this conversation be derailed?  Religion varies considerably across countries and cultures - something that your monolithic view of Islam is uncomfortable with.  Supporting western religious values does not mean one must support barbaric religious practices elsewhere.  



> I'm sticking to America and American Muslims - that is what my discussion pertains to.
> 
> 
> 
> No doubt. Having to address the nightmare faced by the infidel in moslem lands tends to expose your rather obvious double standards.
Click to expand...


If that is what you think.  Personally, I simply don't want to listen to another bigoted anti-islamic rant that refuses to recognize that Islam varies around the world (speaking of double standards ).  There are enough of them already without hijacking this conversation.



> Wouldnt it actually suggest that not addressing those issues is really avoidance? I can clearly make a case for the double standards that Muslims embrace regarding demands to religious freedom in the West, yet clearly suppressing (even violently), the religious freedoms of others in the Islamic Middle East. You exploit that Western held precept of freedom of religion, BTW.



No, it's not avoidance.  There are many threads on this already.  You speak of double standards but ignore your own. 

All religions have double standards - they are human driven and it's human nature.  Those same double standards, in a more muted fashion - are evident in protesting mosques but  not churches.  In labeling foul cartoons about Jews as "anti-semitic" while calling foul cartoons about Muslims "free speech".  It's just that in the West, we are more civilized about our double standards - we clothe them in rights and excuse them.  But they are there.



> I think it's important to understand that the major world religions are not monolithic but multi-faceted and complex.  As a result, I "taking sides" against an entire religion is, in my opinion, wrong.  I would rather take each person individually - whether Christian, Jewish, or Muslim.  There is a lot to learn from all of them and they share the same core values and historical roots.
> 
> 
> 
> Thats fine. Although your shared values comment is a bit silly.
> 
> Religion in Western cultures is largely a private and personal matter. For the most part it is not often dragged into the public arena or forced upon others as it is in many Islamic majority nations. In a democracy, you can believe (or not) as you wish, and you can expect that right to be honored (even if grudgingly) and protected by law. This is illustrative of the dynamic of religious freedom that simply doesnt exist in much of the Islamic Middle East.
Click to expand...


Yes, it is largely a private and personal matter because we have progressed into largely secular societies and, that applies to Muslims, Christians, Jews, Bhuddists etc etc in the West.

I absolutely agree with you on the role of religion in Middle Eastern and African and even Asian societies like India and Nepal.  It's very Medievil.  We are actually in agreement.



> While you may have hoped to deflect the core argument of religious oppression performed by Moslems with your Im talking about American moslems, Its not just a little disingenuous to ignore the reality of islam globally.



By lumping Islam into a "global" entity your are yourself ignoring the realities.



> At least as it applies to the double standards and overt discrimination that Moslems allow themselves, I do find that distasteful. Its distasteful that many Islamic nations ban or restrict competing religions yet Moslems screech like petulant children, (citing Racism, because as we all know, Islam is a Race), *when we in the West insist that no religion is garnered preferential treatment. *



We insist but do we really follow that?  Why do we have idiotic politicians insisting on anti-Muslim legislation in absence of any support from Muslim communities for "Sharia" and in absence of any evidence that Sharia is in use?  Is this the kind of crap that our pluralistic religious society should support?



> At the very least, we here in the _Great Satan_ have no religious police who will arrest you for practicing your religion of choice.


Absolutely 



> *What an audacious concept, dont you think?* I have my religion (or none), while you have yours. No one gets arrested and we can both mind our business without a (proceeding alphabetically), Ayatollah, Cleric, Emir or Imam rallying the faithful to burn our respective houses down because we dare to worship (or not) as we please.



Audacious?  Not at all.  It's what we fight for and stand for.  And it applies to everyone equally.


----------



## Peterf

Coyote said:


> Peterf said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> What else would you call bigotry against Muslims?  Or are you saying it doesn't exist?  Does anti-semitism exist?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I have nothing against Muslims  - I have known some very nice ones.   It's Islam that I intensly dislike.   That's no more 'bigotry' than is my hatred of Communism and Naziism,  two other mind-dominating cultures.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You can't exactly seperate Islam from Muslims and how they choose to live and interpret Islam varies considerably around the world.  What you are doing is applying one vision of Islam on all and making a comparison of that to Naziism is highly inaccurate and comtemptable.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Anti-semitism is hatred of Jews.   It is not contempt for Judaism and the Old Testament.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You can not seperate the person from the religion and anti-semitism draws from the religion - or, more accurately - distorted views of that religion in order to fire up hate.  It's no different from islamophobia.
Click to expand...



Both Naziism and Islam demand complete submission from their believers ('islam' means 'submission') who are forbidden to stray from the party line on pain of servere sanction.  Neither Nazis or Muslims are permitted to think for themselves so the comparison is valid.

Of course one can separate the person from religioned.  I loved my Catholic mother but hated the Catholic religion.

Btw the way anti-semites hate non-religious Jews just as much as the religiously observant.  It's Jews they hate, not Judaism.

Finally.  You say that interpretations of Islam vary.  True in a very limited sense; but all declare that every word of the koran is the word of god and is the ultimate truth, not subject to any form of interpretation.


----------



## Hollie

Coyote said:


> I know exactly what I wrote.


Review what you wrote, then. You were writing about American moslems with the inclusive we, description. 



> Please review what I wrote:
> 
> 
> It is pretty straight forward and requires no novel interpretations on your part.


I see no objective source for your claim: American Muslims demand no more rights and freedoms other than your subjective opinion. So, it seems that you have decided that you are the spokes-moslem for what Americans want / dont want.  







> I do not rely on emails for information on religion.


The above was huge, colossal dodge. With regularity, you hope to employ the but. but.. but . but. but what about the Christians in order to avoid addressing the all-consuming proscriptions of Islamism. 






> The degree to which Islam proscribes one's life is dependent on how an individual Muslim chooses to live Islam.  All the Abrahamic faiths are very authoritarian and when followed in their most fundamentalist forms - brutal to outsiders and women.  Christianity is the loosest in terms of rules because it broke away from most of the OT rules and regulations but the OT, which Judaism follows is full of rules covering everything from "personal hygiene, sexual relations, to public legalities".   There is a very interesting, informative and humorous book that is well worth reading: A Year of Living Biblically that discuss much of this.
> 
> Islam kept most of its rules from the OT - same roots.  None of the Abrahamic faiths are kind to non-believers and their holy books contain pretty nasty examples of what can happen or should be done to non-believers, particularly if removed from their historical contexts.  The history of Christianity is chock full of "second class" citizenry and in fact, Jews were treated worse under Christianity then Islam (not that either religion is a paragon of virture).  The one key difference is *Christianity and Judaism have matured into largely secular societies and less literal interpretations of doctrine*.  That's a leap Islam is still struggling to make in many parts of the world but given the obvious differences between Muslims in westernized countries and those in developing countries, there is no reason to suspect that it's reformation won't eventually come about.


The infidel should also be aware that there is no separation of mosque and state in Islamevery last detail of human experience and endeavor is administered under sharia law. This is why Moslems say that Islam is not just a religion, but _a complete way of life_. 

That's what it is. How you go to the bathroom, make love to your spouse, punish those who transgress against God's will, give to charity (Islamic charity), go to war, eat, wash, borrow money, treat infidelsin short, anything you may do in the course of being aliveis strictly regulated by the sharia. Life for the Moslem is a complex series of bizarre rituals and habits that are commanded by God and His apostle. Islam is the obsessive-compulsive disorder of religions.

Thus, Islam is distinguished from one its parents, Christianity, which actually does allow for genuine freedom and tolerance.

_Render therefore unto Caesar the things which be Caesar's, and unto God the things which be God's._

In contrast to the koran, sunnah, and sharia, there is no inherent conflict in the Gospels between living a devout life and living in equality and harmony under the rule of law alongside others who may believe differently. It should also be noted that nowhere in the New Testament are Christians enjoined to make war against non-Christians to establish the supremacy of the Christian faith. Christians who kill in Christ's name are acting against his teachings, while Muslims who kill in their God's name are dutifully following Muhammad's (swish) teachings (and example).







> What a shame you didn't either since they reflect what many American Muslims think rather than what people like you, think they think.


Thats a rather poor attempt at excusing yet another act of Islamic terrorism.
But here again, why dont you define for us what so many American moslems think.. as you feel a need to define what so many American moslems think. 






> Prior to the law, what was allowed?  Could they wear jewelry with crosses?  Yarmakas?  Could orthodox Jews wear headscarves and wigs?  Was it just when Muslims became a large enough population that people objected to their wearing symbals of religion?


What you wont allow yourself to accept is that a growing population of moslems in France, for example, presented obstacles to the French idea of assimilation and respect for their culture. There were complaints from educators in the school systems about amorphous sacks which could not be identified as to an actual person underneath the sack. There are also myriad problems with this. What will be done in a lab (study lab) environment? How are students in study groups expected to interact with someone cloaked in a burqa?  My college labs always involved a study team jointly producing research papers. These teams were always competitive and involved active participation by all. I take no issue with representing that a woman in a burqa can have negative connotations regarding team participation.

Whats unfortunate is a perception that a class of 30 or so people are all expected to make accommodation to one individual who is disruptive (and seemingly antagonistic) to the whole.   
So no, Western culture is not obligated to accept islamist symbols of gender segregation and exclusion. Beyond the terror and gender apartheid factors of the burqa, I think the French proposal was just good news in general. I firmly believe that forcing a woman into making herself look like an amorphous, black mound of cloth is misogynistic and degrading. 







> Actually - there is a bit more to it.  They segrated themselves but they were also segregated by traditional french society and choices of jobs available to them which perpetrated the ethnic isolation.  It's a two-way street and a problem that France is struggling to deal with.


Yes, it was the fault of the French for not acquiescing to the arrogant demands of islamists. 







> I agree that that is a problem with France.  Unlike the US, France's immigrants come from very different backgrounds.  I believe France's immigration law allows people from any of their former colonies to immigrate to France and they are getting a large  number of very poor, rural, uneducated immigrants who bring with them the cultural values of their homelands.  Immigrant communities vary a great deal.


There is also an issue of islamist immigrants not wanting to assimilate or integrate. 






> The French have never been charged with "bigotry" and "racism" for rejecting "honor killings".  That right there is a lie.
> 
> In addition, "honor killings" are not religiously inspired.  There is nothing in the religious texts of Islam that sanctifies them.  They are a cultural remnant of a medievil society and should be rightfully condemned.  They are also, in western countries rare, despite being sensationalized in the media.


Its remarkable how so many things which haunt moslem societies are not Islamic.

You will find that What does the koran say will not be sufficient to for your islamist rituals.

The suras are required in order to fill in the errors and omissions that the religions inventor left out, hence, omission of genital mutilation of women as noble is not surprising. For a further example, the Koran alone is not even enough to allow you to perform the salat properly. So I guess youre right, we can add or subtract what is and is not Islamic as we need or as its convenient. 

The above should in no way prevent you from supporting the positions of those Imams, Sheikhs, emirs, ayatollahs, religious rulers or scholars who profess the kind of islam you would like the islam to be. You just need to make a personal decision as to whos islam you want to make your islam.







> *My* religious beliefs?
> 
> Talk about entitlement. Pot. Kettle. Black.
> 
> You don't have a clue lady.


Your religion is unimportant to me.

You can be whatever religion you wish, here in the Great Satan.







> I'll remember that when you bring up the Boston Bombing.


Thats a dangerous attitude. The Boston bombings were a calculated act designed to inflict maximum carnage. What apologists for Islamic terrorism choose not to understand is that they are also just as likely victims of Islamic inspired terrorism.  







> Sharia is not "one law" - it's application and interpretation vary widely across Islam.  For example, in many areas Sharia is used primarily in civil matters - marriage, divorce, inheritance, banking while the penal code is secular.  In other areas - Saudi Arabia and Iran, it's far more extreme and obviously barbaric.  In general it's application by Islamists has been a failure (Egypt and Tunisia) - rejected by it's people.  If you are talking about Sharia in it's extreme - I totally agree with you.  But I am also a proponant of secular systems of law being supreme.


Its a remarkable thing to see such that the wave of dictator displacements that gripped the islamist Middle East were little more than mechanisms to replace theocratic dictatorships with theocratic totalitarians screeching the islamist politburo party line. The Salafi Islamist replacements are likely going to be just as Dark Age addled as the Iranian mullahcrats.

Make no mistake  theocratic Crusades (of the Salafi kind), are on the march across the Middle East. That prospect should send a chill to the very core of any non-islamist in the Middle East unfortunate enough to be staring into the gaping maw of Muhammuds (swish) 7th century islamism.

Unfortunately, what many Westerners are not taking away from these theocratic Crusades is that islamic social mores and sharia law are seen as the preferred  (and legitimate), societal construct as opposed to Western values of equality under the law, _rule of law_, separation of church and state and principles whereby the rights of the few are not usurped by the will of the majority. To put a finer point on the matter, Moslems by and large _want_ to be ruled by Islamist regimes, this, in spite of their propensity for economic malaise, social inequities, denigration of religious / secular minorities and gender apartheid! 







> We are in agreement here.  I am 100% behind secular systems of law.


Im tingling with excitement.






> They are also the staple fare of anti-semites and islamophobes.


Slogans? Thats it?







> The only demand I make, is that we follow one of our most cherished rights: freedom of religion.  And that it applies to all equally.


Excepting that anyone who challenges the construction of a mosque is _islamophobic_







> I require nothing of the kind.  Though I'm puzzled as to why you think you know what I "require" or "demand" in absence of any information on my part.  Could it be your own bias' inserting themselves into my words?


Well, we know that the rights of other to protest legally makes them bigots and islamophobes.






> All religions have their blatent double standards and hypocrosies.  History is chock full of it.


Yep  theyre just as bad as we are.







> At what point does religious protesting become religious bigotry?


When protests are directed at moslems.






> Not at all.  I just refuse to let this conversation be derailed?  Religion varies considerably across countries and cultures - something that your monolithic view of Islam is uncomfortable with.  Supporting western religious values does not mean one must support barbaric religious practices elsewhere.


Our only external example of Islam is Moslems. 

My view of Islamism is therefore connected to the actions of moslems. Aside from whatever chosen interpretation one wishes to take away from selected verses, we have only to look at the examples set by the moslem world in order to come to conclusions about islam. If one is going to come to conclusions about interpretations of such matters as forced religion, the moslem world provides those examples most everywhere. 

As with most matters within the belief system, interpretation of the texts is selective and subjective. The greater truth is set by example.   







> If that is what you think.  Personally, I simply don't want to listen to another bigoted anti-islamic rant that refuses to recognize that Islam varies around the world (speaking of double standards ).  There are enough of them already without hijacking this conversation.


You confuse anti-islamic rant with your insistence on making apologies for islams atrocities.
I couldnt help but notice that you often retreat to using clichés and slogans such as the islamophobia weasel. You confuse direct, sometimes blunt and uncompromising critical critique of your positions as 'rants'. While I understand that in your worldview, your politico-religious views are believed to be sacrosanct and authoritative beyond questioning, I don't believe that to be the case.

Uncompromising and unquestioning belief may define your worldview and in your orbit that's fine. When you bring those views and perceptions into a public forum, you should expect them to be scrutinized, sometimes harshly. 

You embrace a politico-religious ideology that you believe carries with it entitlements to rights and privileges than others of "less worthy". ie: false beliefs. You arrogantly demand that you are entitled to rights and privileges that you have an entitlement to deny others. Sorry, but your demands to entitlements are meaningless to me.







> No, it's not avoidance.  There are many threads on this already.  You speak of double standards but ignore your own.


Yet you dont provide meaningful examples.






> All religions have double standards - they are human driven and it's human nature.  Those same double standards, in a more muted fashion - are evident in protesting mosques but  not churches.  In labeling foul cartoons about Jews as "anti-semitic" while calling foul cartoons about Muslims "free speech".  It's just that in the West, we are more civilized about our double standards - we clothe them in rights and excuse them.  But they are there.








> Yes, it is largely a private and personal matter because we have progressed into largely secular societies and, that applies to Muslims, Christians, Jews, Bhuddists etc etc in the West.
> 
> I absolutely agree with you on the role of religion in Middle Eastern and African and even Asian societies like India and Nepal.  It's very Medievil.  We are actually in agreement.


I didnt mean what I wrote.






> By lumping Islam into a "global" entity your are yourself ignoring the realities.


Islamic terrorism is a global threat. Isn't it funny (in a mordant sort of way), how we see all these islamist "victims" running around with machine guns, complaining of discrimination, whining about being unfairly accused of terrorist bombings, and warning their enemies of the innocent civilians that would be killed in a military reprisal? They justify their murderous acts by claiming to be oppressed by non-Muslims. But if they were truly fighting oppression, they would surely lash out at their own oppressive governments first. On the contrary; they seem to be doing their oppressive government's bidding. When terrorists are given the chance to run their own governments, the first thing they do is lock down the society, remove all human rights, and oppress everyone within their borders with intolerable religious laws and vicious, cruel, and ruthless enforcement. It's no accident that these patterns are seen over and over again; it's a well-thought-out, effective strategy, and it will continue to succeed unless and until their lies are exposed. These are not random acts perpetrated by insane criminals; they are deliberately orchestrated by well-organized, deeply religious, petrol-funded terrorist organizations, many of whom operate under the guise of Islamic "charities" and receive direct aid from Arab governments and oil companies.





> We insist but do we really follow that?  Why do we have idiotic politicians insisting on anti-Muslim legislation in absence of any support from Muslim communities for "Sharia" and in absence of any evidence that Sharia is in use?  Is this the kind of crap that our pluralistic religious society should support?


Well youre on to something there. Im much more concerned with those roving bands of heavily armed Lutherans. 






> Absolutely


The _Great Satan_ rocks, dude.






> Audacious?  Not at all.  It's what we fight for and stand for.  And it applies to everyone equally.


Excepting moslems when were getting all _islamophobic_


----------



## Sunni Man

.........................................................    ^^^^ Hollie, you really are quite the moronic windbag   ..


----------



## MJB12741

LMAO!  Bless you for all the laughs you give us while your people massacre each other & kill us infidels as well all over the world.  How can we get more here like Sunnui Man?




Sunni Man said:


> No juden should leave home without one..........


----------



## Hollie

Sunni Man said:


> .........................................................    ^^^^ Hollie, you really are quite the moronic windbag   ..



And as usual, you creepy stalker, your obsession with me causes you to stalk me through multiple threads.


----------



## Sunni Man

Hollie said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> 
> .........................................................    ^^^^ Hollie, you really are quite the moronic windbag   ..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And as usual, you creepy stalker, your obsession with me causes you to stalk me through multiple threads.
Click to expand...

.................................................  ................................


----------



## Hollie

Sunni Man said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> 
> .........................................................    ^^^^ Hollie, you really are quite the moronic windbag   ..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And as usual, you creepy stalker, your obsession with me causes you to stalk me through multiple threads.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> .................................................  ................................
Click to expand...


How freaky. You humiliate yourself and you continue to stalk me.


----------



## Sunni Man

Hollie said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> And as usual, you creepy stalker, your obsession with me causes you to stalk me through multiple threads.
> 
> 
> 
> .................................................  ................................
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> How freaky. You humiliate yourself and you continue to stalk me.
Click to expand...

................................................  ..........................................


----------



## Hollie

Sunni Man said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> 
> .................................................  ................................
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How freaky. You humiliate yourself and you continue to stalk me.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> ................................................  ..........................................
Click to expand...


It's as though you're suffering from a pathology of self-hate. 

Maybe you should go and play in traffic.


----------



## Sunni Man

Hollie said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> How freaky. You humiliate yourself and you continue to stalk me.
> 
> 
> 
> ................................................  ..........................................
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> It's as though you're suffering from a pathology of self-hate.
> 
> Maybe you should go and play in traffic.
Click to expand...

..................................  ............................


----------



## Coyote

Peterf said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Peterf said:
> 
> 
> 
> I have nothing against Muslims  - I have known some very nice ones.   It's Islam that I intensly dislike.   That's no more 'bigotry' than is my hatred of Communism and Naziism,  two other mind-dominating cultures.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You can't exactly seperate Islam from Muslims and how they choose to live and interpret Islam varies considerably around the world.  What you are doing is applying one vision of Islam on all and making a comparison of that to Naziism is highly inaccurate and comtemptable.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Anti-semitism is hatred of Jews.   It is not contempt for Judaism and the Old Testament.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You can not seperate the person from the religion and anti-semitism draws from the religion - or, more accurately - distorted views of that religion in order to fire up hate.  It's no different from islamophobia.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Both Naziism and Islam demand complete submission from their believers ('islam' means 'submission') who are forbidden to stray from the party line on pain of servere sanction.  Neither Nazis or Muslims are permitted to think for themselves so the comparison is valid.
Click to expand...


That's actually not true.  All three Abrahamic faiths demand submission to God - it's there in both the OT and NT - submission.  They can think for themselves to the extent they are willing to deviate from fundamentalist principles.  Islam is no different.

Naziism is a political ideology based on fascism and racial superiority and eugenics.



> Of course one can separate the person from religioned.  I loved my Catholic mother but hated the Catholic religion.
> 
> *Btw the way anti-semites hate non-religious Jews just as much as the religiously observant.  It's Jews they hate, not Judaism.*



Because they don't seperate one from the other - it's all the same.



> Finally.  You say that interpretations of Islam vary.  True in a very limited sense; but all declare that every word of the koran is the word of god and is the ultimate truth, not subject to any form of interpretation.



Yet they do interpret it.  And it's not simply the Koran they go by - it's the many Hadiths and those are open to interpretation and division.


----------



## Hollie

Sunni Man said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> 
> ................................................  ..........................................
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's as though you're suffering from a pathology of self-hate.
> 
> Maybe you should go and play in traffic.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> ..................................  ............................
Click to expand...


What a sad, diseased, pathetic stalker.


----------



## Coyote

Our mutual replying to broken up quotes is getting long and difficult to follow - I'm going to reply to some and leave out others 



Hollie said:


> I see no objective source for your claim: &#8220;American Muslims demand no more rights and freedoms&#8230;&#8221; other than your subjective opinion. So, it seems that you have decided that you are the spokes-moslem for what Americans want / don&#8217;t want.



We are both presenting our subjective opinions here.  If you now require an objective source - I can only say that the evidence is in the lack of evidence showing they are demanding any "special" rights or freedoms than are had by other religions in this country.

It is *you* who have decided I'm some kind of spokesman based upon you odd interpretation of my words.  I have never claimed such a distinction nor would I.



> The above was huge, colossal dodge. With regularity, you hope to employ the &#8220;but&#8230;. but&#8230;.. but &#8230;. but&#8230;. but what about the Christians&#8221; in order to avoid addressing the all-consuming proscriptions of Islamism.



No, it's a statement of fact.  I do not rely on emails or hate sites on the internet for information on any religion.  Most of your words could be regurgitated from Pamela Gellar's Atlas Shrugged - the equivalent of emails.



> The infidel should also be aware that there is no separation of mosque and state in Islam&#8212;every last detail of human experience and endeavor is administered under sharia law. This is why Moslems say that Islam is not just a religion, but _&#8221;a complete way of life_&#8221;&#8482;.



Yet Western Muslims seem to see this differently.



> That's what it is. How you go to the bathroom, make love to your spouse, punish those who transgress against God's will, give to charity (Islamic charity), go to war, eat, wash, borrow money, treat infidels&#8212;in short, anything you may do in the course of being alive&#8212;is strictly regulated by the sharia. Life for the Moslem is a complex series of bizarre rituals and habits that are commanded by God and His apostle. Islam is the obsessive-compulsive disorder of religions.



Again - you find the same "obsessive-compulsive" disorder in Judaism.  So what?  Like Jews, not all Muslims follow it to the nth degree.



> Thus, Islam is distinguished from one its parents, Christianity, which actually does allow for genuine freedom and tolerance.
> 
> _Render therefore unto Caesar the things which be Caesar's, and unto God the things which be God's._



True.  Sort of.  It allows for interpretation that could lead to genuine freedom and tolerance -* if one chooses that interpretation* because there is plenty in the bible that does not allow for it.

I suspect, based on the Islamic faith in the west - a similar interpretation can be found.



> In contrast to the koran, sunnah, and sharia, there is no inherent conflict in the Gospels between living a devout life and living in equality and harmony under the rule of law alongside others who may believe differently. It should also be noted that nowhere in the New Testament are Christians enjoined to make war against non-Christians to establish the supremacy of the Christian faith. Christians who kill in Christ's name are acting against his teachings, while Muslims who kill in their God's name are dutifully following Muhammad's (swish) teachings (and example).




There is much in the OT to support killing non believers and Christians have yet to reject the OT in it's entirety.

You are also grossly simplifying the teachings of Islam - Muslims who kill in "Gods name" are not necessarily following Muhammad's teachings and example.  It very much depends on the circumstances, the particular sects etc.  Your statement shows an ignorance of theology and history.



> That&#8217;s a rather poor attempt at excusing yet another act of Islamic terrorism.
> But here again, why don&#8217;t you define for us what so many American moslems think.. as you feel a need to define what so many American moslems think.



Bringing up a poll on what American Muslims think is "excusing yet another act of Islamic terrorism"?  Seriously?

Hollie, you are pathetic.  Your words are little more than a regurgitation of Islamophobic rhetoric.  You want "objective sources" but when provided with such demand "subjective" responses.  You claim not to be "interested" in (what you think) is my religion but brought it up in the first place.

I think it's clear it's a waste of time to engage in discussion because discussion is not what you are interested in.  Sunni Man has by far the best response - he's not one to waste words


----------



## Sunni Man

Coyote said:


> I think it's clear it's a waste of time to engage in discussion because discussion is not what you are interested in.  Sunni Man has by far the best response - he's not one to waste words


I have dealt with Hollie before.

He/she/It just regurgitates the same tripe you can find on any rabid Islamophobic hate site.  ..


----------



## Coyote

Sunni Man said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think it's clear it's a waste of time to engage in discussion because discussion is not what you are interested in.  Sunni Man has by far the best response - he's not one to waste words
> 
> 
> 
> I have dealt with Hollie before.
> 
> He/she/It just regurgitates the same tripe you can find on any rabid Islamophobic hate site.  ..
Click to expand...


I'm slow but I finally figured it out


----------



## Hollie

Coyote said:


> Our mutual replying to broken up quotes is getting long and difficult to follow - I'm going to reply to some and leave out others
> 
> 
> 
> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> I see no objective source for your claim: American Muslims demand no more rights and freedoms other than your subjective opinion. So, it seems that you have decided that you are the spokes-moslem for what Americans want / dont want.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We are both presenting our subjective opinions here.  If you now require an objective source - I can only say that the evidence is in the lack of evidence showing they are demanding any "special" rights or freedoms than are had by other religions in this country.
> 
> It is *you* who have decided I'm some kind of spokesman based upon you odd interpretation of my words.  I have never claimed such a distinction nor would I.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The above was huge, colossal dodge. With regularity, you hope to employ the but. but.. but . but. but what about the Christians in order to avoid addressing the all-consuming proscriptions of Islamism.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No, it's a statement of fact.  I do not rely on emails or hate sites on the internet for information on any religion.  Most of your words could be regurgitated from Pamela Gellar's Atlas Shrugged - the equivalent of emails.
> 
> 
> 
> Yet Western Muslims seem to see this differently.
> 
> 
> 
> Again - you find the same "obsessive-compulsive" disorder in Judaism.  So what?  Like Jews, not all Muslims follow it to the nth degree.
> 
> 
> 
> True.  Sort of.  It allows for interpretation that could lead to genuine freedom and tolerance -* if one chooses that interpretation* because there is plenty in the bible that does not allow for it.
> 
> I suspect, based on the Islamic faith in the west - a similar interpretation can be found.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In contrast to the koran, sunnah, and sharia, there is no inherent conflict in the Gospels between living a devout life and living in equality and harmony under the rule of law alongside others who may believe differently. It should also be noted that nowhere in the New Testament are Christians enjoined to make war against non-Christians to establish the supremacy of the Christian faith. Christians who kill in Christ's name are acting against his teachings, while Muslims who kill in their God's name are dutifully following Muhammad's (swish) teachings (and example).
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> There is much in the OT to support killing non believers and Christians have yet to reject the OT in it's entirety.
> 
> You are also grossly simplifying the teachings of Islam - Muslims who kill in "Gods name" are not necessarily following Muhammad's teachings and example.  It very much depends on the circumstances, the particular sects etc.  Your statement shows an ignorance of theology and history.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thats a rather poor attempt at excusing yet another act of Islamic terrorism.
> But here again, why dont you define for us what so many American moslems think.. as you feel a need to define what so many American moslems think.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Bringing up a poll on what American Muslims think is "excusing yet another act of Islamic terrorism"?  Seriously?
> 
> Hollie, you are pathetic.  Your words are little more than a regurgitation of Islamophobic rhetoric.  You want "objective sources" but when provided with such demand "subjective" responses.  You claim not to be "interested" in (what you think) is my religion but brought it up in the first place.
> 
> I think it's clear it's a waste of time to engage in discussion because discussion is not what you are interested in.  Sunni Man has by far the best response - he's not one to waste words
Click to expand...


Well gee whiz, coyote. What a disappointment. You carefully and selectively avoided addressing much of my earlier commentary, offered in direct contradiction to your apologetics.. You then launch into personal attacks when you're unable to effectively address those comments.


----------



## Hollie

Coyote said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think it's clear it's a waste of time to engage in discussion because discussion is not what you are interested in.  Sunni Man has by far the best response - he's not one to waste words
> 
> 
> 
> I have dealt with Hollie before.
> 
> He/she/It just regurgitates the same tripe you can find on any rabid Islamophobic hate site.  ..
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I'm slow but I finally figured it out
Click to expand...


You just bailed.

...


----------



## Hollie

Sunni Man said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think it's clear it's a waste of time to engage in discussion because discussion is not what you are interested in.  Sunni Man has by far the best response - he's not one to waste words
> 
> 
> 
> I have dealt with Hollie before.
> 
> He/she/It just regurgitates the same tripe you can find on any rabid Islamophobic hate site.  ..
Click to expand...


And because you're unable to refute a single point, it causes you tremendous angst.

... True story
......


----------



## Coyote

Hollie said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> 
> I have dealt with Hollie before.
> 
> He/she/It just regurgitates the same tripe you can find on any rabid Islamophobic hate site.  ..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm slow but I finally figured it out
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You just bailed.
> 
> ...
Click to expand...


I recognize it when I'm pissing in the wind


----------



## Coyote

Hollie said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> Our mutual replying to broken up quotes is getting long and difficult to follow - I'm going to reply to some and leave out others
> 
> 
> 
> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> I see no objective source for your claim: American Muslims demand no more rights and freedoms other than your subjective opinion. So, it seems that you have decided that you are the spokes-moslem for what Americans want / dont want.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We are both presenting our subjective opinions here.  If you now require an objective source - I can only say that the evidence is in the lack of evidence showing they are demanding any "special" rights or freedoms than are had by other religions in this country.
> 
> It is *you* who have decided I'm some kind of spokesman based upon you odd interpretation of my words.  I have never claimed such a distinction nor would I.
> 
> 
> 
> No, it's a statement of fact.  I do not rely on emails or hate sites on the internet for information on any religion.  Most of your words could be regurgitated from Pamela Gellar's Atlas Shrugged - the equivalent of emails.
> 
> 
> 
> Yet Western Muslims seem to see this differently.
> 
> 
> 
> Again - you find the same "obsessive-compulsive" disorder in Judaism.  So what?  Like Jews, not all Muslims follow it to the nth degree.
> 
> 
> 
> True.  Sort of.  It allows for interpretation that could lead to genuine freedom and tolerance -* if one chooses that interpretation* because there is plenty in the bible that does not allow for it.
> 
> I suspect, based on the Islamic faith in the west - a similar interpretation can be found.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There is much in the OT to support killing non believers and Christians have yet to reject the OT in it's entirety.
> 
> You are also grossly simplifying the teachings of Islam - Muslims who kill in "Gods name" are not necessarily following Muhammad's teachings and example.  It very much depends on the circumstances, the particular sects etc.  Your statement shows an ignorance of theology and history.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thats a rather poor attempt at excusing yet another act of Islamic terrorism.
> But here again, why dont you define for us what so many American moslems think.. as you feel a need to define what so many American moslems think.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Bringing up a poll on what American Muslims think is "excusing yet another act of Islamic terrorism"?  Seriously?
> 
> Hollie, you are pathetic.  Your words are little more than a regurgitation of Islamophobic rhetoric.  You want "objective sources" but when provided with such demand "subjective" responses.  You claim not to be "interested" in (what you think) is my religion but brought it up in the first place.
> 
> I think it's clear it's a waste of time to engage in discussion because discussion is not what you are interested in.  Sunni Man has by far the best response - he's not one to waste words
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Well gee whiz, coyote. What a disappointment. You carefully and selectively avoided addressing much of my earlier commentary, offered in direct contradiction to your apologetics.. You then launch into personal attacks when you're unable to effectively address those comments.
Click to expand...


Personal attacks?  You would know


----------



## Hollie

Coyote said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm slow but I finally figured it out
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You just bailed.
> 
> ...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I recognize it when I'm pissing in the wind
Click to expand...


Use the ladies room.


----------



## Hollie

Coyote said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> Our mutual replying to broken up quotes is getting long and difficult to follow - I'm going to reply to some and leave out others
> 
> 
> 
> We are both presenting our subjective opinions here.  If you now require an objective source - I can only say that the evidence is in the lack of evidence showing they are demanding any "special" rights or freedoms than are had by other religions in this country.
> 
> It is *you* who have decided I'm some kind of spokesman based upon you odd interpretation of my words.  I have never claimed such a distinction nor would I.
> 
> 
> 
> No, it's a statement of fact.  I do not rely on emails or hate sites on the internet for information on any religion.  Most of your words could be regurgitated from Pamela Gellar's Atlas Shrugged - the equivalent of emails.
> 
> 
> 
> Yet Western Muslims seem to see this differently.
> 
> 
> 
> Again - you find the same "obsessive-compulsive" disorder in Judaism.  So what?  Like Jews, not all Muslims follow it to the nth degree.
> 
> 
> 
> True.  Sort of.  It allows for interpretation that could lead to genuine freedom and tolerance -* if one chooses that interpretation* because there is plenty in the bible that does not allow for it.
> 
> I suspect, based on the Islamic faith in the west - a similar interpretation can be found.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There is much in the OT to support killing non believers and Christians have yet to reject the OT in it's entirety.
> 
> You are also grossly simplifying the teachings of Islam - Muslims who kill in "Gods name" are not necessarily following Muhammad's teachings and example.  It very much depends on the circumstances, the particular sects etc.  Your statement shows an ignorance of theology and history.
> 
> 
> 
> Bringing up a poll on what American Muslims think is "excusing yet another act of Islamic terrorism"?  Seriously?
> 
> Hollie, you are pathetic.  Your words are little more than a regurgitation of Islamophobic rhetoric.  You want "objective sources" but when provided with such demand "subjective" responses.  You claim not to be "interested" in (what you think) is my religion but brought it up in the first place.
> 
> I think it's clear it's a waste of time to engage in discussion because discussion is not what you are interested in.  Sunni Man has by far the best response - he's not one to waste words
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well gee whiz, coyote. What a disappointment. You carefully and selectively avoided addressing much of my earlier commentary, offered in direct contradiction to your apologetics.. You then launch into personal attacks when you're unable to effectively address those comments.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Personal attacks?  You would know
Click to expand...


Take responsibility for your behavior.


----------



## toastman

Coyote said:


> Our mutual replying to broken up quotes is getting long and difficult to follow - I'm going to reply to some and leave out others
> 
> 
> 
> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> I see no objective source for your claim: American Muslims demand no more rights and freedoms other than your subjective opinion. So, it seems that you have decided that you are the spokes-moslem for what Americans want / dont want.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We are both presenting our subjective opinions here.  If you now require an objective source - I can only say that the evidence is in the lack of evidence showing they are demanding any "special" rights or freedoms than are had by other religions in this country.
> 
> It is *you* who have decided I'm some kind of spokesman based upon you odd interpretation of my words.  I have never claimed such a distinction nor would I.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The above was huge, colossal dodge. With regularity, you hope to employ the but. but.. but . but. but what about the Christians in order to avoid addressing the all-consuming proscriptions of Islamism.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No, it's a statement of fact.  I do not rely on emails or hate sites on the internet for information on any religion.  Most of your words could be regurgitated from Pamela Gellar's Atlas Shrugged - the equivalent of emails.
> 
> 
> 
> Yet Western Muslims seem to see this differently.
> 
> 
> 
> Again - you find the same "obsessive-compulsive" disorder in Judaism.  So what?  Like Jews, not all Muslims follow it to the nth degree.
> 
> 
> 
> True.  Sort of.  It allows for interpretation that could lead to genuine freedom and tolerance -* if one chooses that interpretation* because there is plenty in the bible that does not allow for it.
> 
> I suspect, based on the Islamic faith in the west - a similar interpretation can be found.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In contrast to the koran, sunnah, and sharia, there is no inherent conflict in the Gospels between living a devout life and living in equality and harmony under the rule of law alongside others who may believe differently. It should also be noted that nowhere in the New Testament are Christians enjoined to make war against non-Christians to establish the supremacy of the Christian faith. Christians who kill in Christ's name are acting against his teachings, while Muslims who kill in their God's name are dutifully following Muhammad's (swish) teachings (and example).
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> There is much in the OT to support killing non believers and Christians have yet to reject the OT in it's entirety.
> 
> You are also grossly simplifying the teachings of Islam - Muslims who kill in "Gods name" are not necessarily following Muhammad's teachings and example.  It very much depends on the circumstances, the particular sects etc.  Your statement shows an ignorance of theology and history.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thats a rather poor attempt at excusing yet another act of Islamic terrorism.
> But here again, why dont you define for us what so many American moslems think.. as you feel a need to define what so many American moslems think.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Bringing up a poll on what American Muslims think is "excusing yet another act of Islamic terrorism"?  Seriously?
> 
> Hollie, you are pathetic.  Your words are little more than a regurgitation of Islamophobic rhetoric.  You want "objective sources" but when provided with such demand "subjective" responses.  You claim not to be "interested" in (what you think) is my religion but brought it up in the first place.
> 
> I think it's clear it's a waste of time to engage in discussion because discussion is not what you are interested in.  Sunni Man has by far the best response - *he's not one to waste words *
Click to expand...


Even the words when he insults Judaism. Or says the Holocaust was a Hoax. Or says the Jews needed to be put in concentration Camps? Or his desire to see Israel destroyed? Or once again, his contiuous anti - Semitism ?


----------



## Coyote

toastman said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> Our mutual replying to broken up quotes is getting long and difficult to follow - I'm going to reply to some and leave out others
> 
> 
> 
> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> I see no objective source for your claim: American Muslims demand no more rights and freedoms other than your subjective opinion. So, it seems that you have decided that you are the spokes-moslem for what Americans want / dont want.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We are both presenting our subjective opinions here.  If you now require an objective source - I can only say that the evidence is in the lack of evidence showing they are demanding any "special" rights or freedoms than are had by other religions in this country.
> 
> It is *you* who have decided I'm some kind of spokesman based upon you odd interpretation of my words.  I have never claimed such a distinction nor would I.
> 
> 
> 
> No, it's a statement of fact.  I do not rely on emails or hate sites on the internet for information on any religion.  Most of your words could be regurgitated from Pamela Gellar's Atlas Shrugged - the equivalent of emails.
> 
> 
> 
> Yet Western Muslims seem to see this differently.
> 
> 
> 
> Again - you find the same "obsessive-compulsive" disorder in Judaism.  So what?  Like Jews, not all Muslims follow it to the nth degree.
> 
> 
> 
> True.  Sort of.  It allows for interpretation that could lead to genuine freedom and tolerance -* if one chooses that interpretation* because there is plenty in the bible that does not allow for it.
> 
> I suspect, based on the Islamic faith in the west - a similar interpretation can be found.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There is much in the OT to support killing non believers and Christians have yet to reject the OT in it's entirety.
> 
> You are also grossly simplifying the teachings of Islam - Muslims who kill in "Gods name" are not necessarily following Muhammad's teachings and example.  It very much depends on the circumstances, the particular sects etc.  Your statement shows an ignorance of theology and history.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thats a rather poor attempt at excusing yet another act of Islamic terrorism.
> But here again, why dont you define for us what so many American moslems think.. as you feel a need to define what so many American moslems think.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Bringing up a poll on what American Muslims think is "excusing yet another act of Islamic terrorism"?  Seriously?
> 
> Hollie, you are pathetic.  Your words are little more than a regurgitation of Islamophobic rhetoric.  You want "objective sources" but when provided with such demand "subjective" responses.  You claim not to be "interested" in (what you think) is my religion but brought it up in the first place.
> 
> I think it's clear it's a waste of time to engage in discussion because discussion is not what you are interested in.  Sunni Man has by far the best response - *he's not one to waste words *
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Even the words when he insults Judaism. Or says the Holocaust was a Hoax. Or says the Jews needed to be put in concentration Camps? Or his desire to see Israel destroyed? Or once again, his contiuous anti - Semitism ?
Click to expand...


I think he's pushing buttons - but that is just my opinion.

Either way, does that make the rampant anti-Islam rhetoric more ok?


----------



## Coyote

Hollie said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well gee whiz, coyote. What a disappointment. You carefully and selectively avoided addressing much of my earlier commentary, offered in direct contradiction to your apologetics.. You then launch into personal attacks when you're unable to effectively address those comments.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Personal attacks?  You would know
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Take responsibility for your behavior.
Click to expand...


After you dear


----------



## Coyote

Hollie said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> You just bailed.
> 
> ...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I recognize it when I'm pissing in the wind
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Use the ladies room.
Click to expand...


To many windbags within.

I'll wait until you are done.


----------



## Hollie

Coyote said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> Personal attacks?  You would know
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Take responsibility for your behavior.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> After you dear
Click to expand...


Already done, dear. You're just unable to compete.


----------



## Hollie

Coyote said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> I recognize it when I'm pissing in the wind
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Use the ladies room.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> To many windbags within.
> 
> I'll wait until you are done.
Click to expand...


It's a shame. You slithered away when you weren't able to support your false claims.


----------



## Coyote

Hollie said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> Take responsibility for your behavior.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> After you dear
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Already done, dear. You're just unable to compete.
Click to expand...


I'm not here to compete, I'm here to discuss issues.


----------



## Coyote

Hollie said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> Use the ladies room.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> To many windbags within.
> 
> I'll wait until you are done.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> It's a shame. You slithered away when you weren't able to support your false claims.
Click to expand...


We can go back if you like, and see if you can regurgitate something better than anti-Islam talking points or talking about "my" religion.


----------



## Hollie

Coyote said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> To many windbags within.
> 
> I'll wait until you are done.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's a shame. You slithered away when you weren't able to support your false claims.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> We can go back if you like, and see if you can regurgitate something better than anti-Islam talking points or talking about "my" religion.
Click to expand...


Why don't you go back and see if you  can find the courage and a functional argument not requiring your usual low standards of whining like a petulant child.


----------



## Sunni Man

I recognize Hollie's cookie cutter responses and they are straight from Robert Spencer's hate site called 'Jihad Watch'.

Where weak minded Islamophobes like Hollie are indoctrinated and trained to make nonsense posts against muslims and Islamic issues. 

But in Hollie's case, he is proving to be a lame student.

Because he is is failing in his mission....big time.  ..


----------



## Hollie

Sunni Man said:


> I recognize Hollie's cookie cutter responses and they are straight from Robert Spencer's hate site called 'Jihad Watch'.
> 
> Where weak minded Islamophobes like Hollie are indoctrinated and trained to make nonsense posts against muslims and Islamic issues.
> 
> But in Hollie's case, he is proving to be a lame student.
> 
> Because he is is failing in his mission....big time.  ..



 You recognize nothing, wannabe convert. 

You're unable to offer anything but your typical, pointless prattle.


----------



## Sunni Man

Hollie said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> 
> I recognize Hollie's cookie cutter responses and they are straight from Robert Spencer's hate site called 'Jihad Watch'.
> 
> Where weak minded Islamophobes like Hollie are indoctrinated and trained to make nonsense posts against muslims and Islamic issues.
> 
> But in Hollie's case, he is proving to be a lame student.
> 
> Because he is is failing in his mission....big time.  ..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You recognize nothing, wannabe convert.
> 
> You're unable to offer anything but your typical, pointless prattle.
Click to expand...

LOL.....sounds like I hit a nerve.......


----------



## Coyote

Here, let's take a portion of what you wrote.  The funny thing is, you completely dodged the question being asked.  The second thing is you created a strawman.

From your post: http://www.usmessageboard.com/7867477-post609.html



> Coyote:  Prior to the law, what was allowed? Could they wear jewelry with crosses? Yarmakas? Could orthodox Jews wear headscarves and wigs? Was it just when Muslims became a large enough population that people objected to their wearing symbals of religion?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What you won&#8217;t allow yourself to accept is that a growing population of moslems in France, for example, presented obstacles to the French idea of assimilation and respect for their culture. There were complaints from educators in the school systems about amorphous sacks which could not be identified as to an actual person underneath the sack. There are also myriad problems with this. What will be done in a lab (study lab) environment? How are students in study groups expected to interact with someone cloaked in a burqa? My college labs always involved a study team jointly producing research papers. These teams were always competitive and involved active participation by all. I take no issue with representing that a woman in a burqa can have negative connotations regarding team participation.
Click to expand...


The Burqa Strawman.

The French law was not about the Burqa - a garment rarely worn in France, though it includes the Burqa.  It was specifically addressing the Hijab.  The Hijab refers to any head, face, or body covering, including simply head scarves.  The most commonly worn Muslim Hijab covers hair and neck (I'm basing this on students we have here).

The second issue is this:  when it comes to safety and labs, dress codes can and should take precedence if religious garb interferes.  People working in shop class with power tools can not wear dangling chains and jewelry.  They take them off.  A simple and adequate solution that in no way violates religious freedoms.



> What&#8217;s unfortunate is a perception that a class of 30 or so people are all expected to make accommodation to one individual who is disruptive (and seemingly antagonistic) to the whole.



Really...I had no idea the wearing of a simple headscarf is considered so "disruptive" and "antagonistic"...









> So no, Western culture is not obligated to accept islamist symbols of gender segregation and exclusion.



I suggest you expand your horizons beyond "emails" when it comes to learning about religion.  Hijab are not "Islamist" nor are they symbols of "gender segregation and exclusion" *in and of themselves*.  There are many Jewish and Christian sects that believe that modesty and honoring God require covering their hair in much the same way as many Muslim sects.  The Hijab can also be viewed as having a "metaphysical dimension, where al-hijab refers to "the veil which separates man or the world from God".  Rather than wasting your time on "emails" you might want to consider talking to young women wearing hijabs - you might find a variety of opinions good and bad.



> Beyond the terror and gender apartheid factors of the burqa, I think the French proposal was just good news in general. I firmly believe that forcing a woman into making herself look like an amorphous, black mound of cloth is misogynistic and degrading.



France values it's secular society - but part of that principle of secularity is that according to the French law, *everyone is equal in showing and expressing their religious opinions in public and in private.*

So you not only didn't answer the actual question, and created a burqa strawman but you actually support religious discrimination?

The 2003 law, as written forbids any ostentatious symbols of any religion and it also only applies to students and teachers in public primary schools.  As such it's pretty narrowly defined and in many ways can be considered part of an official dress code.  It also applies to nursing staff and doctors in public hospitals where sanitary garb is necessary and that makes sense.

But that is really not the direction your argument appears to be coming from - ie rational sense.  You seem to support the ban, and only the ban on headscarves (not other religious paraphenalia) because they are a symbol of "evil" - aparthied, Islamism, etc. and you apply that to all forms of that religion.

More disturbing however, is the 2011 law banning full face coverings such as the chador in all public spaces.  Though the law includes other forms of facial coverings such as masks - it is primarily aimed at Muslims.  

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/14/world/europe/14burqa.html?_r=0
... &#8220;no one can, in the public space, wear clothing intended to hide the face.&#8221; It also defines &#8220;public space&#8221; broadly, including streets, markets and private businesses, as well as government buildings and public transportation. 

Unlike the 2003 law applying to public schools this one has no rational or safety related purpose behind it.  It's aimed almost entirely at Muslims.  Religious bigotry?  There are an estimated five million Muslims in France, of which*fewer than 2,000* are thought to fully cover their faces with a veil.  Why is there a need for such a ban?

The unanswered question: prior to these laws - there were no restrictions on the wearing of religious symbols.


----------



## Hollie

Sunni Man said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> 
> I recognize Hollie's cookie cutter responses and they are straight from Robert Spencer's hate site called 'Jihad Watch'.
> 
> Where weak minded Islamophobes like Hollie are indoctrinated and trained to make nonsense posts against muslims and Islamic issues.
> 
> But in Hollie's case, he is proving to be a lame student.
> 
> Because he is is failing in his mission....big time.  ..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You recognize nothing, wannabe convert.
> 
> You're unable to offer anything but your typical, pointless prattle.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> LOL.....sounds like I hit a nerve.......
Click to expand...


You embarassed yourself again with pointless nonsense. 


Sounds like you're getting desperate with your creepy stalking.   

.....


----------



## Sunni Man

Hollie said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> You recognize nothing, wannabe convert.
> 
> You're unable to offer anything but your typical, pointless prattle.
> 
> 
> 
> LOL.....sounds like I hit a nerve.......
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You embarassed yourself again with pointless nonsense.
> 
> 
> Sounds like you're getting desperate with your creepy stalking.
Click to expand...

Don't be so hard on yourself Hollie.

Just email Robert Spenser and admit that you made a poor showing here at USMB

And ask him for some additional Islamophobic training.

Hopefully he will have a remedial course for the slow learners like you.  ..


----------



## Hollie

Coyote said:


> Here, let's take a portion of what you wrote.  The funny thing is, you completely dodged the question being asked.  The second thing is you created a strawman.
> 
> by all. I take no issue with representing that a woman in a burqa can have negative connotations regarding team participation.


I see you're making every effort to avoid addressing my earlier comments.  


If you wish to agonize over French and other European nations' ban on the Islamic Shame Sack, you would be best advised to go on your own personal jihad against those evil kuffar in Europe. 


You'll send us a postcard, won't you?


----------



## Coyote

Hollie said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> Here, let's take a portion of what you wrote.  The funny thing is, you completely dodged the question being asked.  The second thing is you created a strawman.
> 
> by all. I take no issue with representing that a woman in a burqa can have negative connotations regarding team participation.
> 
> 
> 
> I see you're making every effort to avoid addressing my earlier comments.
> 
> 
> If you wish to agonize over French and other European nations' ban on the Islamic Shame Sack, you would be best advised to go on your own personal jihad against those evil kuffar in Europe.
> 
> 
> You'll send us a postcard, won't you?
Click to expand...



Umh.  You posted a shit load of stuff.  That WAS answering one of YOUR earlier comments which specifically brought in the French ban.  I'll put the link in since you can't recall your own words.


----------



## Hollie

Sunni Man said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> 
> LOL.....sounds like I hit a nerve.......
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You embarassed yourself again with pointless nonsense.
> 
> 
> Sounds like you're getting desperate with your creepy stalking.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Don't be so hard on yourself Hollie.
> 
> Just email Robert Spenser and admit that you made a poor showing here at USMB
> 
> And ask him for some additional Islamophobic training.
> 
> Hopefully he will have a remedial course for the slow learners like you.  ..
Click to expand...


Failure is your best effort.


----------



## Hollie

Coyote said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> Here, let's take a portion of what you wrote.  The funny thing is, you completely dodged the question being asked.  The second thing is you created a strawman.
> 
> by all. I take no issue with representing that a woman in a burqa can have negative connotations regarding team participation.
> 
> 
> 
> I see you're making every effort to avoid addressing my earlier comments.
> 
> 
> If you wish to agonize over French and other European nations' ban on the Islamic Shame Sack, you would be best advised to go on your own personal jihad against those evil kuffar in Europe.
> 
> 
> You'll send us a postcard, won't you?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Umh.  You posted a shit load of stuff.  That WAS answering one of YOUR earlier comments which specifically brought in the French ban.  I'll put the link in since you can't recall your own words.
Click to expand...


I posted relevant commentary you failed to address.

Here you are, on a spam campaign with my personal stalker.


----------



## Coyote

Hollie said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> I see you're making every effort to avoid addressing my earlier comments.
> 
> 
> If you wish to agonize over French and other European nations' ban on the Islamic Shame Sack, you would be best advised to go on your own personal jihad against those evil kuffar in Europe.
> 
> 
> You'll send us a postcard, won't you?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Umh.  You posted a shit load of stuff.  That WAS answering one of YOUR earlier comments which specifically brought in the French ban.  I'll put the link in since you can't recall your own words.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I posted relevant commentary you failed to address.
> 
> Here you are, on a spam campaign with my personal stalker.
Click to expand...



So I waste a good bit of time posting a response to a portion of your "relevant commentary" and.....it is suddenly not "relevant"....

What exactly is "relevant" and why are you wasting bandwidth


----------



## Hollie

Coyote said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> Umh.  You posted a shit load of stuff.  That WAS answering one of YOUR earlier comments which specifically brought in the French ban.  I'll put the link in since you can't recall your own words.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I posted relevant commentary you failed to address.
> 
> Here you are, on a spam campaign with my personal stalker.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> So I waste a good bit of time posting a response to a portion of your "relevant commentary" and.....it is suddenly not "relevant"....
> 
> What exactly is "relevant" and why are you wasting bandwidth
Click to expand...


Gee whiz. You threw a twitchy little snit and stormed away previously. Here you are again, teamed up with my stalker throwing a hissy fit. 

The angry, petulant child persona is really silly.


----------



## Coyote

Hollie said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> I posted relevant commentary you failed to address.
> 
> Here you are, on a spam campaign with my personal stalker.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So I waste a good bit of time posting a response to a portion of your "relevant commentary" and.....it is suddenly not "relevant"....
> 
> What exactly is "relevant" and why are you wasting bandwidth
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Gee whiz. You threw a twitchy little snit and stormed away previously. Here you are again, teamed up with my stalker throwing a hissy fit.
> 
> *The angry, petulant child persona is really silly*.
Click to expand...


Indeed it is, and you show no signs of stopping.

Clearly you aren't interested in responding in an intelligent manner.  I won't waste any more time on you.


----------



## Sunni Man

Coyote said:


> Clearly you aren't interested in responding in an intelligent manner.  I won't waste any more time on you.


Smart move...........


----------



## Coyote

Sunni Man said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> Clearly you aren't interested in responding in an intelligent manner.  I won't waste any more time on you.
> 
> 
> 
> Smart move...........
Click to expand...


I guess I was being unrealistically optimistic 

Damn...and it was a good post to waste time on too...ah well.


----------



## Hollie

Coyote said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> So I waste a good bit of time posting a response to a portion of your "relevant commentary" and.....it is suddenly not "relevant"....
> 
> What exactly is "relevant" and why are you wasting bandwidth
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Gee whiz. You threw a twitchy little snit and stormed away previously. Here you are again, teamed up with my stalker throwing a hissy fit.
> 
> *The angry, petulant child persona is really silly*.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Indeed it is, and you show no signs of stopping.
> 
> Clearly you aren't interested in responding in an intelligent manner.  I won't waste any more time on you.
Click to expand...


Stomping your feet like a 12 year old?


----------



## Coyote

Coyote said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> Clearly you aren't interested in responding in an intelligent manner.  I won't waste any more time on you.
> 
> 
> 
> Smart move...........
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I guess I was being unrealistically optimistic
> 
> Damn...and it was a good post to waste time on too...ah well.
Click to expand...


She's being a tad petulant.


----------



## Hollie

Coyote said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> 
> Smart move...........
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I guess I was being unrealistically optimistic
> 
> Damn...and it was a good post to waste time on too...ah well.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> She's being a tad petulant.
Click to expand...


So... you're really just looking for attention.


----------



## Sunni Man

Coyote said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> 
> Smart move...........
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I guess I was being unrealistically optimistic
> 
> Damn...and it was a good post to waste time on too...ah well.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> She's being a tad petulant.
Click to expand...

No doubt.....


----------



## Coyote

Sunni Man said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> I guess I was being unrealistically optimistic
> 
> Damn...and it was a good post to waste time on too...ah well.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> She's being a tad petulant.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> No doubt.....
Click to expand...


Well....when it comes to training dogs, I've learned that the best way to handle certain types of bad behavior is to ignore it.  Attention just acts as a reinforcement.  So...I bet it's not so different with people


----------



## Hollie

Coyote said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> She's being a tad petulant.
> 
> 
> 
> No doubt.....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Well....when it comes to training dogs, I've learned that the best way to handle certain types of bad behavior is to ignore it.  Attention just acts as a reinforcement.  So...I bet it's not so different with people
Click to expand...


So desperate for attention... the two wannabes.


----------



## Sunni Man

Hollie said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> 
> No doubt.....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well....when it comes to training dogs, I've learned that the best way to handle certain types of bad behavior is to ignore it.  Attention just acts as a reinforcement.  So...I bet it's not so different with people
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> So desperate for attention... the two wannabes.
Click to expand...

Must be that time of the month for Hollie........


----------



## Hollie

Sunni Man said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well....when it comes to training dogs, I've learned that the best way to handle certain types of bad behavior is to ignore it.  Attention just acts as a reinforcement.  So...I bet it's not so different with people
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So desperate for attention... the two wannabes.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Must be that time of the month for Hollie........
Click to expand...


Even by your usual standards of disgusting behavior, you have sunk to new lows.


----------



## S.J.

Sunni Man said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well....when it comes to training dogs, I've learned that the best way to handle certain types of bad behavior is to ignore it.  Attention just acts as a reinforcement.  So...I bet it's not so different with people
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So desperate for attention... the two wannabes.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Must be that time of the month for Hollie........
Click to expand...

If she was Muhammad's wife, she wouldn't have to worry about that for several more years.


----------



## SherriMunnerlyn

S.J. said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> So desperate for attention... the two wannabes.
> 
> 
> 
> Must be that time of the month for Hollie........
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> If she was Muhammad's wife, she wouldn't have to worry about that for several more years.
Click to expand...


No, if she was Muhammad's wife, she would have been dead now for over 1000 years!


----------



## JohnA

Hossfly said:


> Moonglow said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Osomir said:
> 
> 
> 
> Careful, or Roudy and Hossfly might accuse you of being a secret Muslim.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Fortunately I associate with no form of religion.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> We'll pray for you that you'll depart from your heathen ways.
Click to expand...

 we atheists can only hope you  wake up one day and stop your idolatry of fictional charactors .


----------



## Hossfly

JohnA said:


> Hossfly said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Moonglow said:
> 
> 
> 
> Fortunately I associate with no form of religion.
> 
> 
> 
> We'll pray for you that you'll depart from your heathen ways.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> we atheists can only hope you  wake up one day and stop your idolatry of fictional charactors .
Click to expand...

Mind your own beeswax, heathen.


----------



## S.J.

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> S.J. said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> 
> Must be that time of the month for Hollie........
> 
> 
> 
> If she was Muhammad's wife, she wouldn't have to worry about that for several more years.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No, if she was Muhammad's wife, she would have been dead now for over 1000 years!
Click to expand...

Yeah, she would have bled to death on her wedding night.


----------



## Noomi

Aisha didn't suffer on her wedding night. Conservatives like to claim she was between the ages of six and nine when she had sex, but its more likely that she was a teenager - around the age of fourteen.


----------



## SherriMunnerlyn

Noomi said:


> Aisha didn't suffer on her wedding night. Conservatives like to claim she was between the ages of six and nine when she had sex, but its more likely that she was a teenager - around the age of fourteen.



And for that day and time, age 14 would not be an unusual age for a girl to get married.


----------



## S.J.

Noomi said:


> Aisha didn't suffer on her wedding night. Conservatives like to claim she was between the ages of six and nine when she had sex, but its more likely that she was a teenager - around the age of fourteen.


And you base that on what?  Are you not willing to entertain the possibility that the "prophet" Muhammad might have been a pervert?


----------



## SherriMunnerlyn

"Biblical Companions, briefly addresses ancient, biblical marriage customs.Ancient marriages were usually arranged between the oldest male family members within the same group or family clan (Genesis 27:46-28:2). This guaranteed the future existence of the overall group and preservation of culture and values. Girls were given in marriage when they were old enough to bear children, whereas men married when they either received their inheritance or obtained their own resources. It was also common for the groom to give a dowry, or purchase his wife from his future father-in-law. In the case of Jacob, since he evidently had no such dowry, he indentured himself to his father-in-law in exchange for his wives (Genesis 29:15-21). (Rushmore)During the first century, however, it appears to have been the general rule that young people who were "of age" could arrange their own marriages. A girl was considered of age at twelve years and one day. The Jewish rabbis set the minimum age for marriage at twelve years for the girl, and thirteen years for the boy. A boy should certainly be wed by the time he was eighteen to twenty. Betrothal was a vital part of marriage in biblical times. Once a young man had chosen his prospective bride, and she had consented (if of age), a formal declaration of marital intent was made in the presence of two witnesses. The couple was then betrothed. The betrothal period was fixed by law. For a maiden, it was from ten months to a year; for a widow, three months. From the time of her betrothal until the marriage actually took place, a woman was treated*as if she were actually married. The betrothal could not be dissolved except by divorce; breach of faithfulness was regarded as adultery. (Jackson)When the day for the marriage arrives, the bridegroom with some of his friends goes to the house of the father-in-law, and receives the bride. She is brought with much parade to the bridegroom's home, where a feast is prepared, of which the guests partake with a great deal of boisterous merriment. (McGarvey)"

Religious Questions Answered with Biblical Answers


----------



## SherriMunnerlyn

S.J. said:


> Noomi said:
> 
> 
> 
> Aisha didn't suffer on her wedding night. Conservatives like to claim she was between the ages of six and nine when she had sex, but its more likely that she was a teenager - around the age of fourteen.
> 
> 
> 
> And you base that on what?  Are you not willing to entertain the possibility that the "prophet" Muhammad might have been a pervert?
Click to expand...


Should we discuss Abrahams incest in sleeping with his sister?


----------



## S.J.

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> S.J. said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Noomi said:
> 
> 
> 
> Aisha didn't suffer on her wedding night. Conservatives like to claim she was between the ages of six and nine when she had sex, but its more likely that she was a teenager - around the age of fourteen.
> 
> 
> 
> And you base that on what?  Are you not willing to entertain the possibility that the "prophet" Muhammad might have been a pervert?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Should we discuss Abrahams incest in sleeping with his sister?
Click to expand...

Is discussing the pervert Muhammad too uncomfortable for you?


----------



## Noomi

S.J. said:


> Noomi said:
> 
> 
> 
> Aisha didn't suffer on her wedding night. Conservatives like to claim she was between the ages of six and nine when she had sex, but its more likely that she was a teenager - around the age of fourteen.
> 
> 
> 
> And you base that on what?  Are you not willing to entertain the possibility that the "prophet" Muhammad might have been a pervert?
Click to expand...


How about other cultures? Every culture is different, some cultures marry children off at a very young age. We don't condone it, but its the culture of that country, just like you Americans have your own culture.


----------



## Noomi

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> S.J. said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Noomi said:
> 
> 
> 
> Aisha didn't suffer on her wedding night. Conservatives like to claim she was between the ages of six and nine when she had sex, but its more likely that she was a teenager - around the age of fourteen.
> 
> 
> 
> And you base that on what?  Are you not willing to entertain the possibility that the "prophet" Muhammad might have been a pervert?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Should we discuss Abrahams incest in sleeping with his sister?
Click to expand...


Incest is okay to the Bible thumpers, God says its okay to populate the world that way.


----------



## S.J.

Noomi said:


> S.J. said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Noomi said:
> 
> 
> 
> Aisha didn't suffer on her wedding night. Conservatives like to claim she was between the ages of six and nine when she had sex, but its more likely that she was a teenager - around the age of fourteen.
> 
> 
> 
> And you base that on what?  Are you not willing to entertain the possibility that the "prophet" Muhammad might have been a pervert?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> How about other cultures? Every culture is different, some cultures marry children off at a very young age. We don't condone it, but its the culture of that country, just like you Americans have your own culture.
Click to expand...

That's right, change the subject.  SherriM must be rubbing off on you.


----------



## MHunterB

"That's right, change the subject. SherriM must be rubbing off on you."

KKKooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooties, eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeewwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww!!!!!!


----------



## SherriMunnerlyn

S.J. said:


> Noomi said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> S.J. said:
> 
> 
> 
> And you base that on what?  Are you not willing to entertain the possibility that the "prophet" Muhammad might have been a pervert?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How about other cultures? Every culture is different, some cultures marry children off at a very young age. We don't condone it, but its the culture of that country, just like you Americans have your own culture.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> That's right, change the subject.  SherriM must be rubbing off on you.
Click to expand...


The subject of the thread is not Muhammad.


----------



## S.J.

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> S.J. said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Noomi said:
> 
> 
> 
> How about other cultures? Every culture is different, some cultures marry children off at a very young age. We don't condone it, but its the culture of that country, just like you Americans have your own culture.
> 
> 
> 
> That's right, change the subject.  SherriM must be rubbing off on you.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The subject of the thread is not Muhammad.
Click to expand...

Nor is it incest.  It's child rape, and the one person who is notorious for that practice is Muhammad.


----------



## Noomi

S.J. said:


> SherriMunnerlyn said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> S.J. said:
> 
> 
> 
> That's right, change the subject.  SherriM must be rubbing off on you.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The subject of the thread is not Muhammad.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Nor is it incest.  It's child rape, and the one person who is notorious for that practice is Muhammad.
Click to expand...


No one raped anyone.


----------



## ScienceRocks

Why does islam allow rape and harm to children?


----------



## Coyote

Matthew said:


> Why does islam allow rape and harm to children?



It doesn't.


----------



## Coyote

S.J. said:


> SherriMunnerlyn said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> S.J. said:
> 
> 
> 
> That's right, change the subject.  SherriM must be rubbing off on you.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The subject of the thread is not Muhammad.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Nor is it incest.  It's child rape, and the one person who is notorious for that practice is Muhammad.
Click to expand...


You have some odd definitions of notorious.  Someone like William Gacy, who raped and killed upwards of 33 boys could be considered "notorious".  On the other hand a historical figure who existed over a millinium ago, who's history was largely written long after death, who lived in a culture where the age of marriage for women was 12-14, and who's fourth wife may or may not have been a child (depends on which Hadith) -- is..."notorious".


----------



## Coyote

S.J. said:


> Noomi said:
> 
> 
> 
> Aisha didn't suffer on her wedding night. Conservatives like to claim she was between the ages of six and nine when she had sex, but its more likely that she was a teenager - around the age of fourteen.
> 
> 
> 
> And you base that on what?  Are you not willing to entertain the possibility that the "prophet" Muhammad might have been a pervert?
Click to expand...


If you had been reading this thread you would see that links have been provided upon which this was based.


----------



## Coyote

MHunterB said:


> "That's right, change the subject. SherriM must be rubbing off on you."
> 
> KKKooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooties, eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeewwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww!!!!!!



The subject is, actually child marriage.  Some want to make it about Mohammed.


----------



## MHunterB

Coyote said:


> MHunterB said:
> 
> 
> 
> "That's right, change the subject. SherriM must be rubbing off on you."
> 
> KKKooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooties, eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeewwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww!!!!!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The subject is, actually child marriage.  Some want to make it about Mohammed.
Click to expand...


Yes, you'd think this would be a no-brainer.......but then so are some posters, one has learned.  Perhaps the zombies got them in their sleep?


----------



## Hollie

Coyote said:


> MHunterB said:
> 
> 
> 
> "That's right, change the subject. SherriM must be rubbing off on you."
> 
> KKKooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooties, eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeewwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww!!!!!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The subject is, actually child marriage.  Some want to make it about Mohammed.
Click to expand...


It is about muhammud (swish).

The allowance for human rights abuses of female children in Islamic society is derived, at it root, from the example of Muhammud (swish), as the most _perfect example_ for humanity.


http://m.us.wsj.com/articles/a/SB10001424053111903635604576472011907391364?mg=reno64-wsj

July 29, 2011 12:01 AM Cleric Fights Saudi Bid to Ban Child Marriages

By Angus McDowall

Cleric Fights Saudi Bid to Ban Child Marriages

A senior Saudi Arabian cleric has issued a religious ruling to allow fathers to arrange marriages for their daughters "even if they are in the cradle," setting up a confrontation between government reformers and influential conservative clergy.




BBC NEWS | Middle East | Child marriage and divorce in Yemen

Sheikh Hamoud Hashim al-Tharihi is general secretary of the increasingly influential Vice and Virtue Committee and a member of the Islah Party. He cites the example of the Prophet Muhammad who married six-year-old Aisha but waited for consummation till she was a little older.

"Because this happened to the Prophet, we cannot tell people that it is prohibited to marry at an early age," he argues. Moreover, he claims it would harm society by spreading vice.


See? According to the good sheik al-Tharihi (hereinafter "al"),  al advises that society would be harmed by not following the example of Mo' (swish).  So yeah, boinking a female child is saving society from harm. 

Hey, it's a man's world in the islam .


----------



## Coyote

MHunterB said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MHunterB said:
> 
> 
> 
> "That's right, change the subject. SherriM must be rubbing off on you."
> 
> KKKooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooties, eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeewwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww!!!!!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The subject is, actually child marriage.  Some want to make it about Mohammed.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yes, you'd think this would be a no-brainer.......but then so are some posters, one has learned.  Perhaps the zombies got them in their sleep?
Click to expand...


Zombie posters?  You worrying me....


----------



## Coyote

Hollie said:


> ....setting up a confrontation between government reformers and influential conservative clergy.



Good for government reformers!  Wait...aren't they Muslims?

Conservative clergy.  Not surprising.  Conservative religious sects are frequently anti-woman.



> BBC NEWS | Middle East | Child marriage and divorce in Yemen
> 
> Sheikh Hamoud Hashim al-Tharihi is general secretary of the increasingly influential Vice and Virtue Committee and a member of the Islah Party. He cites the example of the Prophet Muhammad who married six-year-old Aisha but waited for consummation till she was a little older.
> 
> "Because this happened to the Prophet, we cannot tell people that it is prohibited to marry at an early age," he argues. Moreover, he claims it would harm society by spreading vice.
> 
> 
> See? According to the good sheik al-Tharihi (hereinafter "al"),  al advises that society would be harmed by not following the example of Mo' (swish).  So yeah, boinking a female child is saving society from harm.
> 
> *Hey, it's a man's world in the islam* .



In most traditional cultures - which include many African and ME Islamic cultures (as well as Christian African cultures) - it is.  It sucks to be a woman.

Yemen is one of the worst.


----------



## Hollie

Coyote said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> ....setting up a confrontation between government reformers and influential conservative clergy.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Good for government reformers!  Wait...aren't they Muslims?
> 
> Conservative clergy.  Not surprising.  Conservative religious sects are frequently anti-woman.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> BBC NEWS | Middle East | Child marriage and divorce in Yemen
> 
> Sheikh Hamoud Hashim al-Tharihi is general secretary of the increasingly influential Vice and Virtue Committee and a member of the Islah Party. He cites the example of the Prophet Muhammad who married six-year-old Aisha but waited for consummation till she was a little older.
> 
> "Because this happened to the Prophet, we cannot tell people that it is prohibited to marry at an early age," he argues. Moreover, he claims it would harm society by spreading vice.
> 
> 
> See? According to the good sheik al-Tharihi (hereinafter "al"),  al advises that society would be harmed by not following the example of Mo' (swish).  So yeah, boinking a female child is saving society from harm.
> 
> *Hey, it's a man's world in the islam* .
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> In most traditional cultures - which include many African and ME Islamic cultures (as well as Christian African cultures) - it is.  It sucks to be a woman.
> 
> Yemen is one of the worst.
Click to expand...


You miss thr point. In various locations in Mo's (swish) neighborhood, any attempt to restrict the practice of pious moslem men taking child brides could be considered a 
*crime against koranity*


----------



## Coyote

Hollie said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> ....setting up a confrontation between government reformers and influential conservative clergy.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Good for government reformers!  Wait...aren't they Muslims?
> 
> Conservative clergy.  Not surprising.  Conservative religious sects are frequently anti-woman.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> BBC NEWS | Middle East | Child marriage and divorce in Yemen
> 
> Sheikh Hamoud Hashim al-Tharihi is general secretary of the increasingly influential Vice and Virtue Committee and a member of the Islah Party. He cites the example of the Prophet Muhammad who married six-year-old Aisha but waited for consummation till she was a little older.
> 
> "Because this happened to the Prophet, we cannot tell people that it is prohibited to marry at an early age," he argues. Moreover, he claims it would harm society by spreading vice.
> 
> 
> See? According to the good sheik al-Tharihi (hereinafter "al"),  al advises that society would be harmed by not following the example of Mo' (swish).  So yeah, boinking a female child is saving society from harm.
> 
> *Hey, it's a man's world in the islam* .
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> In most traditional cultures - which include many African and ME Islamic cultures (as well as Christian African cultures) - it is.  It sucks to be a woman.
> 
> Yemen is one of the worst.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You miss thr point. In various locations in Mo's (swish) neighborhood, any attempt to restrict the practice of pious moslem men taking child brides could be considered a
> *crime against koranity*
Click to expand...


Yup.  By Muslim religious conservatives in traditional cultures.  Fortunately, the sentiment is not universal in Islam.


----------



## Roudy

Noomi said:


> S.J. said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SherriMunnerlyn said:
> 
> 
> 
> The subject of the thread is not Muhammad.
> 
> 
> 
> Nor is it incest.  It's child rape, and the one person who is notorious for that practice is Muhammad.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No one raped anyone.
Click to expand...

Oh, then what do you call a man lusting a girl enough to get engaged with her at age 6 and then having sex with her hen she's 8, after he's married?  Here in the US when when an older man has sex with a girl under the age of 18, it's called INVOLUNTARY RAPE.

Wait , what am I saying, Mohammad just wanted to be "friends" with 6 year old Aisha.  It was purely plutonic.  He had no intention if having sex with her..


----------



## Roudy

Coyote said:


> MHunterB said:
> 
> 
> 
> "That's right, change the subject. SherriM must be rubbing off on you."
> 
> KKKooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooties, eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeewwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww!!!!!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The subject is, actually child marriage.  Some want to make it about Mohammed.
Click to expand...

Child marriage and it's causes. In Muslims the main cause is clearly Islam, and Mohammed's marriage to a 9 year old.


----------



## Coyote

Roudy said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MHunterB said:
> 
> 
> 
> "That's right, change the subject. SherriM must be rubbing off on you."
> 
> KKKooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooties, eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeewwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww!!!!!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The subject is, actually child marriage.  Some want to make it about Mohammed.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Child marriage and it's causes. In Muslims the main cause is clearly Islam, and Mohammed's marriage to a 9 year old.
Click to expand...


The main cause is poverty.  Islam is secondary.


----------



## Coyote

Roudy said:


> Noomi said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> S.J. said:
> 
> 
> 
> Nor is it incest.  It's child rape, and the one person who is notorious for that practice is Muhammad.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No one raped anyone.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Oh, then what do you call a man lusting a girl enough to get engaged with her at age 6 and then having sex with her hen she's 8, after he's married?  Here in the US when when an older man has sex with a girl under the age of 18, it's called INVOLUNTARY RAPE.
> 
> Wait , what am I saying, Mohammad just wanted to be "friends" with 6 year old Aisha.  It was purely plutonic.  He had no intention if having sex with her..
Click to expand...


If that one Hadith is accurate and there is much historical evidence to the contrary that you choose to ignore.


----------



## SherriMunnerlyn

I wonder if the story in the OP was a fabrication of Zionists to demonize Islam.

It appears it never happened.


----------



## Hollie

Coyote said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> Good for government reformers!  Wait...aren't they Muslims?
> 
> Conservative clergy.  Not surprising.  Conservative religious sects are frequently anti-woman.
> 
> 
> 
> In most traditional cultures - which include many African and ME Islamic cultures (as well as Christian African cultures) - it is.  It sucks to be a woman.
> 
> Yemen is one of the worst.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You miss thr point. In various locations in Mo's (swish) neighborhood, any attempt to restrict the practice of pious moslem men taking child brides could be considered a
> *crime against koranity*
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yup.  By Muslim religious conservatives in traditional cultures.  Fortunately, the sentiment is not universal in Islam.
Click to expand...


Yep. It's reasonable to accept the actions of "conservatives", ie:, pious moslems in the KSA, Egypt, Tunisia, Yemen, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Syria, Turkey, Jordan (Jordan possibly being the "honor killing" capital of the islamist world), Iraq, Oman....

Yep, keep the women in their Shame Sacks, bang em' young and hey, as a man, you're allowed several child brides. When they hit the wall at 15 years old, get a new one. 

Life's good in Ummah'istan.


----------



## Roudy

Coyote said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> Good for government reformers!  Wait...aren't they Muslims?
> 
> Conservative clergy.  Not surprising.  Conservative religious sects are frequently anti-woman.
> 
> 
> 
> In most traditional cultures - which include many African and ME Islamic cultures (as well as Christian African cultures) - it is.  It sucks to be a woman.
> 
> Yemen is one of the worst.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You miss thr point. In various locations in Mo's (swish) neighborhood, any attempt to restrict the practice of pious moslem men taking child brides could be considered a
> *crime against koranity*
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yup.  By Muslim religious conservatives in traditional cultures.  Fortunately, the sentiment is not universal in Islam.
Click to expand...

Overwhelming majority of Muslim countries are traditional and religious based societies. Even in those that are run by secular dictators, the majority of people are very religious. 

There is universal consensus among religious Muslims and even most Muslims that Aisha was 9 years old. The facts are there and irrefutable.  Even Osomir who claims to have studied Islam does not dispute this.  

There may be a tiny group that is trying to spread the lie of Aisha's age as "unknown" or "perhaps older than thought" to whitewash reality.  God luck with convincing Muslims in that.  The truth is, there is no real dispute as to her age.  Just desperate attempts.


----------



## SherriMunnerlyn

The Zionist Strategy of Demonizing Islam

The Zionist Strategy of Demonizing Islam « Aletho News


----------



## SherriMunnerlyn

"Two post-9/11 campaigns are prominent examples of this type of Islamophobia in action.**The first was the organized attempt to block construction of the Islamic Society of Boston (ISB) Cultural Center in Roxbury (2002-2007).**Until recently, the controversy over its opening appeared to have largely died down.**But, in the aftermath of the April 2013 Boston Marathon bombing, the same individuals and groups that had led the drive to stop the ISB Cultural Center seized the opportunity to once again malign the ISB.*The second campaign opposed New York Citys Khalil Gibran International Academy (KGIA), the countrys first Arabic dual language public school, and attacked its founding principal, Debbie Almontaser (2007-2010)."

"These campaigns have much in common with each other and with other anti-Muslim campaigns across the country.*Hardline pro-Israel members of what the Center for American Progress (CAP) has called the Islamophobia Network in America played important roles in these two crusadesfear-mongering, providing misinformation, and using the right-wing media and blogosphereand they continue to foment anti-Islam sentiment.[1]**Most disturbingly, the Islamophobia comes not only from people viewed as fringe or from those who commit hate crimes, but also, significantly, from the mainstream, those with the power of government and other institutions behind them.*"

How pro-Israel forces drove two virulent anti-Muslim campaigns | Mondoweiss


----------



## Coyote

Roudy said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> You miss thr point. In various locations in Mo's (swish) neighborhood, any attempt to restrict the practice of pious moslem men taking child brides could be considered a
> *crime against koranity*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yup.  By Muslim religious conservatives in traditional cultures.  Fortunately, the sentiment is not universal in Islam.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Overwhelming majority of Muslim countries are traditional and religious based societies. Even in those that are run by secular dictators, the majority of people are very religious.
> 
> There is universal consensus among religious Muslims and even most Muslims that Aisha was 9 years old. The facts are there and irrefutable.  Even Osomir who claims to have studied Islam does not dispute this.
> 
> *There may be a tiny group that is trying to spread the age of Aisha's age as "unknown" or "perhaps older than thought" to whitewash reality.*  God luck with convincing Muslims in that.  The truth is, there is no real dispute as to her age.  Just desperate attempts.
Click to expand...


Actually it is not "white washing" reality but rather basing it on very real historical events that occurred around her lifetime and it's not a "tiny" group.  There is considerable evidence that the age issue - as a "pedophilic" issue - is a fairly modern invention by those who try to demonize Islam as a religion of pedophiles when child marriage is by no means universally accepted in Muslim countries.


----------



## Roudy

Coyote said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> The subject is, actually child marriage.  Some want to make it about Mohammed.
> 
> 
> 
> Child marriage and it's causes. In Muslims the main cause is clearly Islam, and Mohammed's marriage to a 9 year old.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The main cause is poverty.  Islam is secondary.
Click to expand...

It's not poverty just because you want it to be, or say so.  It's people believing their religion allows them to marriage 9 year olds.  Poverty, ignorance, illiteracy, certainly play a role, but take a back seat among Muslims when they recite RELIGION as their justification for it. I have shown this to you over and over quoting what Muslims themselves have said, yet yon refuse to accept.  Religion plays a major role in why Muslims do it. 

You're constantly either debating Aisha's age or trying to make it look as if Islam has very little to do it. This is not what Muslims themselves believe.


----------



## Roudy

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> The Zionist Strategy of Demonizing Islam
> 
> The Zionist Strategy of Demonizing Islam « Aletho News


I see, it's not the Muslims that demonize Jews and Judaism, or Christianity. 

Just yesterday, Muslims blew up a church in Pakistan killing 80 people. Who are the real  haters and demonizers?


----------



## SherriMunnerlyn

What I would like to know more about is these activists, who they are, are they outsiders or rather to what extent are they outsiders,  what is their agenda.

"The number of female activists in Yemen has grown as a result of the protests in 2011. Although they face many obstacles, these are positive signs of increased awareness and a growing public debate on these issues that affect many Yemeni girls and women."

The Reason For Yemen's Child-Bride Problem Isn't What You'd Expect


----------



## Roudy

Coyote said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yup.  By Muslim religious conservatives in traditional cultures.  Fortunately, the sentiment is not universal in Islam.
> 
> 
> 
> Overwhelming majority of Muslim countries are traditional and religious based societies. Even in those that are run by secular dictators, the majority of people are very religious.
> 
> There is universal consensus among religious Muslims and even most Muslims that Aisha was 9 years old. The facts are there and irrefutable.  Even Osomir who claims to have studied Islam does not dispute this.
> 
> *There may be a tiny group that is trying to spread the age of Aisha's age as "unknown" or "perhaps older than thought" to whitewash reality.*  God luck with convincing Muslims in that.  The truth is, there is no real dispute as to her age.  Just desperate attempts.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Actually it is not "white washing" reality but rather basing it on very real historical events that occurred around her lifetime and it's not a "tiny" group.  There is considerable evidence that the age issue - as a "pedophilic" issue - is a fairly modern invention by those who try to demonize Islam as a religion of pedophiles when child marriage is by no means universally accepted in Muslim countries.
Click to expand...

It's whitewashing and not based in reality. Muslim countries base laws that allow child child marriages on Islam.  In countries where it is occurring, Muslims cite Islam.  Even in countries that aren't poor, like Iran, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Pakistan, Iran, and Afghanistan  where it also occurs Muslims again cite Islam as the reason. And In poor countries such as India, even though they passed a law against the practice, it is the Muslim Indians that posted against it, and are not following it, citing ISLAM.  perhaps you should be busy telling the Muslims that even though they think they're doing this because of religion, it's not so, or perhaps Aisha wasn't 9.  Sitting here tens of thousands of miles away making up stuff about Muslims isn't going to make any difference.  

It's pretty obvious to an objective person with no agenda that Islam is the main cause. Of course there are some that don't want it to be so, because it just doesn't fit into this image they wan to portray as Islam being just like any other religion, or behaving just like any religion today.  Again, the facts speak for themselves much louder than words.


----------



## Roudy

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> What I would like to know more about is these activists, who they are, are they outsiders or rather to what extent are they outsiders,  what is their agenda.
> 
> "The number of female activists in Yemen has grown as a result of the protests in 2011. Although they face many obstacles, these are positive signs of increased awareness and a growing public debate on these issues that affect many Yemeni girls and women."
> 
> The Reason For Yemen's Child-Bride Problem Isn't What You'd Expect


Yemenis don't do it because of Islam.  Ya right.


----------



## Hollie

Coyote said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> The subject is, actually child marriage.  Some want to make it about Mohammed.
> 
> 
> 
> Child marriage and it's causes. In Muslims the main cause is clearly Islam, and Mohammed's marriage to a 9 year old.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The main cause is poverty.  Islam is secondary.
Click to expand...


In the rational world, Islam's religious leaders tell us otherwise. 

Apologists for child abuse only perpetuate a societal cancer by refusing to acknowledge there is a root cause problem.


----------



## Roudy

Hollie said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> You miss thr point. In various locations in Mo's (swish) neighborhood, any attempt to restrict the practice of pious moslem men taking child brides could be considered a
> *crime against koranity*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yup.  By Muslim religious conservatives in traditional cultures.  Fortunately, the sentiment is not universal in Islam.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yep. It's reasonable to accept the actions of "conservatives", ie:, pious moslems in the KSA, Egypt, Tunisia, Yemen, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Syria, Turkey, Jordan (Jordan possibly being the "honor killing" capital of the islamist world), Iraq, Oman....
> 
> Yep, keep the women in their Shame Sacks, bang em' young and hey, as a man, you're allowed several child brides. When they hit the wall at 15 years old, get a new one.
> 
> Life's good in Ummah'istan.
Click to expand...

Forgetting of course that religion play the most dominant role in Muslim societies. And Shariah law is considered above any civil law, even among Muslims that live in the West, which is why most Muslim countries have their civil laws based on Shariah law.


----------



## Coyote

Aisha's age at marriage: 

You decide based on actual historical analysis and ask yourself what your own agenda is in taking events out of their historical period and trying to paint Islam as a religion of pedophiles with widespread suppport for child marriage.  Outside of tradtional societies you find little to no support and even within traditional socieites support for marriage prior to puberty (which can be as young as 11 or 12).

Clearly, when modern people try to use an historical age of marriage to validate violating children - it is wrong, it is against the morals, customs and laws the world today.  It should be condemned and pressure should be put upon nations that practice it or allow it to put an end to it regardless of religion.

It should be noted that traditional scholarship is not unanimously in agreement about Aisha&#8217;s age either - the events occurred over a thousand years ago.  This gives Muslims the power they need to abolish any religious justification for the practice in Muslim majority countries around world, though it does not address the main issues driving it which are poverty and lack of education.


----------



## Coyote

Hollie said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Child marriage and it's causes. In Muslims the main cause is clearly Islam, and Mohammed's marriage to a 9 year old.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The main cause is poverty.  Islam is secondary.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> In the rational world, Islam's religious leaders tell us otherwise.
> 
> Apologists for child abuse only perpetuate a societal cancer by refusing to acknowledge there is a root cause problem.
Click to expand...


Perhaps you should read through this thread and look at the links and posts where root causes are discussed by rational people such as UNICEF and others seeking to abolish the practice.


----------



## Coyote

Roudy said:


> SherriMunnerlyn said:
> 
> 
> 
> What I would like to know more about is these activists, who they are, are they outsiders or rather to what extent are they outsiders,  what is their agenda.
> 
> "The number of female activists in Yemen has grown as a result of the protests in 2011. Although they face many obstacles, these are positive signs of increased awareness and a growing public debate on these issues that affect many Yemeni girls and women."
> 
> The Reason For Yemen's Child-Bride Problem Isn't What You'd Expect
> 
> 
> 
> Yemenis don't do it because of Islam.  Ya right.
Click to expand...


Sherri posted an excellent article.  Too bad you don't bother to read it.  No one is saying Islam has nothing to do with it, however other factors in those parts of the world are far more causal (which explains why it's also prevalent in non-Islamic countries).

From her article:


> The problem of child marriage is not confined to Yemen. It can be found across different continents, cultures, and religions.* However, one thread ties these experiences together, and that is poverty*. According to Human Rights Watch, child marriage is most prevalent in parts of sub-Saharan Africa and South Asia that are characterized by *persistent poverty and low levels of economic development*. The trend is certainly discernible in Yemen, the *poorest country in the Middle East*. The country is beset by high unemployment, widespread corruption, and rampant human rights abuses. *As a result of the economic situation, these marriages often take the shape of a commercial transaction as the father seeks the dowry payments as a means to lighten his familys financial burdens*.


----------



## Hollie

Coyote said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> The main cause is poverty.  Islam is secondary.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In the rational world, Islam's religious leaders tell us otherwise.
> 
> Apologists for child abuse only perpetuate a societal cancer by refusing to acknowledge there is a root cause problem.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Perhaps you should read through this thread and look at the links and posts where root causes are discussed by rational people such as UNICEF and others seeking to abolish the practice.
Click to expand...


Perhaps you should understand that poverty happens in many locations in the world. Only in those parts of the world where islamism is the dominant politico-religious ideology do we find religious leaders endorsing this child abuse. The abuse is allowed because the perfect model for humanity and inventor of Islam made himself such an allowance.

What a shame that islamists make excuses for this abuse.


----------



## SherriMunnerlyn

Hollie said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> In the rational world, Islam's religious leaders tell us otherwise.
> 
> Apologists for child abuse only perpetuate a societal cancer by refusing to acknowledge there is a root cause problem.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Perhaps you should read through this thread and look at the links and posts where root causes are discussed by rational people such as UNICEF and others seeking to abolish the practice.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Perhaps you should understand that poverty happens in many locations in the world. Only in those parts of the world where islamism is the dominant politico-religious ideology do we find religious leaders endorsing this child abuse. The abuse is allowed because the perfect model for humanity and inventor of Islam made himself such an allowance.
> 
> What a shame that islamists make excuses for this abuse.
Click to expand...


Why must you keep spouting so many lies? No religious leaders endorse what was reported in the OP. And noone is excusing it. It is not even a true story.


----------



## Hollie

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> Perhaps you should read through this thread and look at the links and posts where root causes are discussed by rational people such as UNICEF and others seeking to abolish the practice.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Perhaps you should understand that poverty happens in many locations in the world. Only in those parts of the world where islamism is the dominant politico-religious ideology do we find religious leaders endorsing this child abuse. The abuse is allowed because the perfect model for humanity and inventor of Islam made himself such an allowance.
> 
> What a shame that islamists make excuses for this abuse.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Why must you keep spouting so many lies? No religious leaders endorse what was reported in the OP. And noone is excusing it. It is not even a true story.
Click to expand...

Are you really this dense?

Never mind, that's a rhetorical question.


----------



## Coyote

Hollie said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> In the rational world, Islam's religious leaders tell us otherwise.
> 
> Apologists for child abuse only perpetuate a societal cancer by refusing to acknowledge there is a root cause problem.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Perhaps you should read through this thread and look at the links and posts where root causes are discussed by rational people such as UNICEF and others seeking to abolish the practice.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Perhaps you should understand that poverty happens in many locations in the world. *Only in those parts of the world where islamism is the dominant politico-religious ideology do we find religious leaders endorsing this child abuse.* The abuse is allowed because the perfect model for humanity and inventor of Islam made himself such an allowance.
> 
> What a shame that islamists make excuses for this abuse.
Click to expand...



That doesn't alter the fact that poverty is the main driver of child marriages including Islamic majority countries.


----------



## SherriMunnerlyn

Hollie said:


> SherriMunnerlyn said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> Perhaps you should understand that poverty happens in many locations in the world. Only in those parts of the world where islamism is the dominant politico-religious ideology do we find religious leaders endorsing this child abuse. The abuse is allowed because the perfect model for humanity and inventor of Islam made himself such an allowance.
> 
> What a shame that islamists make excuses for this abuse.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Why must you keep spouting so many lies? No religious leaders endorse what was reported in the OP. And noone is excusing it. It is not even a true story.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Are you really this dense?
> 
> Never mind, that's a rhetorical question.
Click to expand...


No religious leaders have endorsed the child abuse alleged in the OP. So, please stop claiming they have. If you really want to persist with such claims, prove your claim is true. Show me any person anywhere defending the child abuse alleged in the OP. And lets go back to the OP and refresh what is alleged, that an 8 year old girl was a child bride and that her husband had sex with her and that the sexual act caused her uterus to rupture, and she died. Show me any person anywhere endorsing these alleged acts and defending them!


----------



## Hollie

Coyote said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> Perhaps you should read through this thread and look at the links and posts where root causes are discussed by rational people such as UNICEF and others seeking to abolish the practice.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Perhaps you should understand that poverty happens in many locations in the world. *Only in those parts of the world where islamism is the dominant politico-religious ideology do we find religious leaders endorsing this child abuse.* The abuse is allowed because the perfect model for humanity and inventor of Islam made himself such an allowance.
> 
> What a shame that islamists make excuses for this abuse.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> That doesn't alter the fact that poverty is the main driver of child marriages including Islamic majority countries.
Click to expand...


Actually, it does. If poverty were non-existent in Islamic nations, the allowance for child marriage would still be a part of the allowance for abuse based upon the actions of the "perfect model for humanity".


----------



## Coyote

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SherriMunnerlyn said:
> 
> 
> 
> Why must you keep spouting so many lies? No religious leaders endorse what was reported in the OP. And noone is excusing it. It is not even a true story.
> 
> 
> 
> Are you really this dense?
> 
> Never mind, that's a rhetorical question.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No religious leaders have endorsed the child abuse alleged in the OP. So, please stop claiming they have. If you really want to persist with such claims, prove your claim is true. Show me any person anywhere defending the child abuse alleged in the OP. And lets go back to the OP and refresh what is alleged, that an 8 year old girl was a child bride and that her husband had sex with her and that the sexual act caused her uterus to rupture, and she died. Show me any person anywhere endorsing these alleged acts and defending them!
Click to expand...


There are clerics in rural, mostly uneducated tribal areas that legitimize child marriage based on the common interpretation of Mohammed's marriage to Aisha.  There are also those who will use any excuse to demonize Islam and this is one example.  Note - they are more interested in blaming it all on Islam rather than condemning it.  Civilized people, with modern ethics, of any religion condemn it - regardless of the religion of the country it occurs in.  The fact that it has provoked an outcry in the Muslim world and the Yemeni government is now legislating a minimum age of marriage is a good thing.  How effective that will be in what is the poorest country in the ME remains to be seen because it's poverty more than religion that drives child marriage.


----------



## Coyote

Hollie said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> Perhaps you should understand that poverty happens in many locations in the world. *Only in those parts of the world where islamism is the dominant politico-religious ideology do we find religious leaders endorsing this child abuse.* The abuse is allowed because the perfect model for humanity and inventor of Islam made himself such an allowance.
> 
> What a shame that islamists make excuses for this abuse.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That doesn't alter the fact that poverty is the main driver of child marriages including Islamic majority countries.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Actually, it does. If poverty were non-existent in Islamic nations, the allowance for child marriage would still be a part of the allowance for abuse based upon the actions of the "perfect model for humanity".
Click to expand...


That's not based upon facts.  Child marriage statistics spread the largest rates of child marriage (top ten and twenty) amongst an array of religions with Muslim and Christian majority nations almost tied.  Most are in Africa and Hindu dominant Nepal and India are among the biggest offenders.  Wealthier more educated nations and nations with political stability have far few occurences of child marriages and most of those are in rural/tribal areas.


----------



## SherriMunnerlyn

LEGAL-RELIGIOUS STATUS OF THE FEMALE ACCORDING TO AGE

Discussby*Tirzah Meacham (leBeit Yoreh)  Legal status in Judaism is determined by age, sex, legal capacity and, to some extent, by class (kohen, levi, yisrael) and societal status. This entry will deal chiefly with the changing legal status from conception through adulthood of females, with some reference to parallel status of males and the legal differences class imposes.The father has biblical authority to marry her to the Jewish man of his choice from the day of her birth (Niddah*5:4). The marriage is binding and may only be broken by the death of her spouse or by the acceptance of the writ of divorce (get) by her fatherThe father&#8217;s right to contract marriage on behalf of his minor daughter has one other limitation: if the mode of acquisition in marriage is by sexual intercourse, she must be at least three years and a day old before her intercourse is considered legal. The reason given is that prior to the age of three years and a day her hymen*(betulim) would return (BTNiddah*45a).*


Legal-Religious Status of the Female According to Age | Jewish Women's Archive


----------



## Hollie

Coyote said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> That doesn't alter the fact that poverty is the main driver of child marriages including Islamic majority countries.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Actually, it does. If poverty were non-existent in Islamic nations, the allowance for child marriage would still be a part of the allowance for abuse based upon the actions of the "perfect model for humanity".
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> That's not based upon facts.  Child marriage statistics spread the largest rates of child marriage (top ten and twenty) amongst an array of religions with Muslim and Christian majority nations almost tied.  Most are in Africa and Hindu dominant Nepal and India are among the biggest offenders.  Wealthier more educated nations and nations with political stability have far few occurences of child marriages and most of those are in rural/tribal areas.
Click to expand...



And yet, for all your continued apologetics, the sheik'ers and movers of the islamist world refuse to contradict the inventor of Islam and the perfect model for humanity. 

Early Marriage | WISE Muslim Women


Al-Azhar Al-Sharif in Egypt, a significant Islamic religious body, released a new manual on the rights of Muslim children that states; "Marriage in Islam is regulated by certain rules, namely, children must reach puberty and maturity so that they can get married."


----------



## Coyote

Hollie said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> Actually, it does. If poverty were non-existent in Islamic nations, the allowance for child marriage would still be a part of the allowance for abuse based upon the actions of the "perfect model for humanity".
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That's not based upon facts.  Child marriage statistics spread the largest rates of child marriage (top ten and twenty) amongst an array of religions with Muslim and Christian majority nations almost tied.  Most are in Africa and Hindu dominant Nepal and India are among the biggest offenders.  Wealthier more educated nations and nations with political stability have far few occurences of child marriages and most of those are in rural/tribal areas.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> And yet, for all your continued apologetics, the sheik'ers and movers of the islamist world refuse to contradict the inventor of Islam and the perfect model for humanity.
> 
> Early Marriage | WISE Muslim Women
> 
> 
> Al-Azhar Al-Sharif in Egypt, a significant Islamic religious body, released a new manual on the rights of Muslim children that states; "Marriage in Islam is regulated by certain rules, namely, children must reach puberty and maturity so that they can get married."
Click to expand...


Yes.  Must reach puberty and maturity.  That's not an 8 or 9 yr old, as is the OP.

Also from your link:



> *Poverty *plays a major role in child marriages, which are seen as a way to provide economic security to young girls





> In November 2006, *ministers, politicians and scholars from almost 50 Muslim states *gathered for two days in Morocco for the first Islamic Childhood Conference, and called for "measures to eliminate all forms of discrimination against girls and all harmful traditional or customary practices, such as child marriage and female genital mutilation." *In Islam intellectual and physical maturity and a womans credible permission are prerequisites for a marriage to be valid.* There are some that argue the Prophet married Aisha bint Abu Bakr, at the age of 9 and therefore deduct that child marriage is permissible. *However, some scholars question the authenticity of the Hadith *that claims Aisha was 9 at the time of marriage as this would go against the just and merciful message of Islam, and most importantly, oppose a prerequisite of having a valid Muslim marriage.



So Al-Azhar Al-Sharif, the highest religious body in Sunni, is making a strong statement against child marriage.

Also interesting is the reaction in the Arab world, to the claim that an 8 yr old Yemeni child died.  Even though this particular incident was shown to be false, it provoked a great deal of outrage in the Islamic world, for example: Yemen's faces false child marriage accusations- Yemen Post English Newspaper Online


----------



## SherriMunnerlyn

Hollie said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> Actually, it does. If poverty were non-existent in Islamic nations, the allowance for child marriage would still be a part of the allowance for abuse based upon the actions of the "perfect model for humanity".
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That's not based upon facts.  Child marriage statistics spread the largest rates of child marriage (top ten and twenty) amongst an array of religions with Muslim and Christian majority nations almost tied.  Most are in Africa and Hindu dominant Nepal and India are among the biggest offenders.  Wealthier more educated nations and nations with political stability have far few occurences of child marriages and most of those are in rural/tribal areas.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> And yet, for all your continued apologetics, the sheik'ers and movers of the islamist world refuse to contradict the inventor of Islam and the perfect model for humanity.
> 
> Early Marriage | WISE Muslim Women
> 
> 
> Al-Azhar Al-Sharif in Egypt, a significant Islamic religious body, released a new manual on the rights of Muslim children that states; "Marriage in Islam is regulated by certain rules, namely, children must reach puberty and maturity so that they can get married."
Click to expand...


Your religion allows sexual intercourse at age 3. Why is that an improvement?


----------



## Coyote

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> That's not based upon facts.  Child marriage statistics spread the largest rates of child marriage (top ten and twenty) amongst an array of religions with Muslim and Christian majority nations almost tied.  Most are in Africa and Hindu dominant Nepal and India are among the biggest offenders.  Wealthier more educated nations and nations with political stability have far few occurences of child marriages and most of those are in rural/tribal areas.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And yet, for all your continued apologetics, the sheik'ers and movers of the islamist world refuse to contradict the inventor of Islam and the perfect model for humanity.
> 
> Early Marriage | WISE Muslim Women
> 
> 
> Al-Azhar Al-Sharif in Egypt, a significant Islamic religious body, released a new manual on the rights of Muslim children that states; "Marriage in Islam is regulated by certain rules, namely, children must reach puberty and maturity so that they can get married."
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Your religion allows sexual intercourse at age 3. Why is that an improvement?
Click to expand...


I don't know what her religion is, but there is no religion that allows it that young....


----------



## toastman

Coyote said:


> SherriMunnerlyn said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> And yet, for all your continued apologetics, the sheik'ers and movers of the islamist world refuse to contradict the inventor of Islam and the perfect model for humanity.
> 
> Early Marriage | WISE Muslim Women
> 
> 
> Al-Azhar Al-Sharif in Egypt, a significant Islamic religious body, released a new manual on the rights of Muslim children that states; "Marriage in Islam is regulated by certain rules, namely, children must reach puberty and maturity so that they can get married."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Your religion allows sexual intercourse at age 3. Why is that an improvement?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I don't know what her religion is, but there is no religion that allows it that young....
Click to expand...


Sherri slut is probably talking about Judaism. There is some sort of myth that it is allowed in Judaism


----------



## Coyote

toastman said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SherriMunnerlyn said:
> 
> 
> 
> Your religion allows sexual intercourse at age 3. Why is that an improvement?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I don't know what her religion is, but there is no religion that allows it that young....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Sherri slut is probably talking about Judaism. There is some sort of myth that it is allowed in Judaism
Click to expand...


Ahh.

Most likely a passage is taken out of it's historical context and manipulated to feed an agenda.


----------



## SherriMunnerlyn

From the Babylonian Talmud: When a grown-up man has intercourse with a little girl it is nothing, for when the girl is less than this (6) (6. less than three years old) it is as if one puts the finger into the eye (7) (7. tears come to the eye again and again, so does virginity come back to the little girl under three years) Kethuboth 11b - 


Babylonian Talmud: Kethuboth 11

Post 719 also addresses Jewish religious texts that say the same.


----------



## Coyote

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> From the Babylonian Talmud: When a grown-up man has intercourse with a little girl it is nothing, for when the girl is less than this (6) (6. less than three years old) it is as if one puts the finger into the eye (7) (7. tears come to the eye again and again, so does virginity come back to the little girl under three years) Kethuboth 11b -
> 
> 
> Babylonian Talmud: Kethuboth 11



It doesn't sound like it's "permitted"  -  looking at the link, it seems to be about penalties applied for certain types of rape.


----------



## SherriMunnerlyn

Coyote said:


> SherriMunnerlyn said:
> 
> 
> 
> From the Babylonian Talmud: When a grown-up man has intercourse with a little girl it is nothing, for when the girl is less than this (6) (6. less than three years old) it is as if one puts the finger into the eye (7) (7. tears come to the eye again and again, so does virginity come back to the little girl under three years) Kethuboth 11b -
> 
> 
> Babylonian Talmud: Kethuboth 11
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It doesn't sound like it's "permitted"  -  looking at the link, it seems to be about penalties applied for certain types of rape.
Click to expand...


A history of the Mishnaic Law of Purities. 15. Niddah . Commentary - Google Books

From the Mishnah
PG 83 Niddah Ch 5 3-5

"The girl three years and one day old is deemed capable of sexual relations...:"


----------



## S.J.

Noomi said:


> S.J. said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SherriMunnerlyn said:
> 
> 
> 
> The subject of the thread is not Muhammad.
> 
> 
> 
> Nor is it incest.  It's child rape, and the one person who is notorious for that practice is Muhammad.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No one raped anyone.
Click to expand...

Really?  You don't call a 53 year old man having sex with a 9 year old girl rape?


----------



## SherriMunnerlyn

Jewish Child Brides &#8212;*Why the Barbaric Practice of Marrying Off Young Girls Persists

Ever since the marriage of Rebecca and Isaac over three millennia ago, the children of Abraham and Sarah have toyed with the practice of betrothing their daughters at very young ages. Of course not all scholars agree that Rebecca was actually three years old when she took the fateful decision to feed Eliezer&#8217;s camels and cement her destiny as a Jewish matriarch. Realistically, many scholars (including Maimonides, Tosafot and Sifrei, for example) argue that the age is a fabrication. Nevertheless, the mythology of the girl-bride has relentlessly taken hold, to such an extent that even now, thousands of years later, the practice is frightfully tenacious.The latest chapter in the Jewish annals of child-brides emerged last week in Kiryat Sefer (Modi&#8217;in Illit), a Haredi town in the center of Israel not too far from where I live. A 13-year-old girl whose parents were horrified to discover that she was talking to boys (my word!) was apparently married off to a 16-year-old boy from Rehovot. Rumors are sketchy about whether they were merely engaged or secretly married. But according to*a report in Haaretz, the girls&#8217; parents were so overwhelmed by their daughter&#8217;s rambunctiousness that they turned to a local kabbalist who told them that &#8220;this was the only way for the girl to supposedly atone for &#8230;. her sin.&#8221; The welfare department, the police, and even other local rabbis tried to intervene to prevent the marriage from taking place, but the social workers learned that the marriage took place anyway. (Government social workers*are now on strike*in Israel, and are thus not currently involved.)  

Jewish Child Brides ?*Why the Barbaric Practice of Marrying Off Young Girls Persists ? The Sisterhood ? Forward.com


----------



## Hollie

Coyote said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> That's not based upon facts.  Child marriage statistics spread the largest rates of child marriage (top ten and twenty) amongst an array of religions with Muslim and Christian majority nations almost tied.  Most are in Africa and Hindu dominant Nepal and India are among the biggest offenders.  Wealthier more educated nations and nations with political stability have far few occurences of child marriages and most of those are in rural/tribal areas.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And yet, for all your continued apologetics, the sheik'ers and movers of the islamist world refuse to contradict the inventor of Islam and the perfect model for humanity.
> 
> Early Marriage | WISE Muslim Women
> 
> 
> Al-Azhar Al-Sharif in Egypt, a significant Islamic religious body, released a new manual on the rights of Muslim children that states; "Marriage in Islam is regulated by certain rules, namely, children must reach puberty and maturity so that they can get married."
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yes.  Must reach puberty and maturity.  That's not an 8 or 9 yr old, as is the OP.
> 
> Also from your link:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Poverty *plays a major role in child marriages, which are seen as a way to provide economic security to young girls
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In November 2006, *ministers, politicians and scholars from almost 50 Muslim states *gathered for two days in Morocco for the first Islamic Childhood Conference, and called for "measures to eliminate all forms of discrimination against girls and all harmful traditional or customary practices, such as child marriage and female genital mutilation." *In Islam intellectual and physical maturity and a woman&#8217;s credible permission are prerequisites for a marriage to be valid.* There are some that argue the Prophet married Aisha bint Abu Bakr, at the age of 9 and therefore deduct that child marriage is permissible. *However, some scholars question the authenticity of the Hadith *that claims Aisha was 9 at the time of marriage as this would go against the just and merciful message of Islam, and most importantly, oppose a prerequisite of having a valid Muslim marriage.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> So Al-Azhar Al-Sharif, the highest religious body in Sunni, is making a strong statement against child marriage.
> 
> Also interesting is the reaction in the Arab world, to the claim that an 8 yr old Yemeni child died.  Even though this particular incident was shown to be false, it provoked a great deal of outrage in the Islamic world, for example: Yemen's faces false child marriage accusations- Yemen Post English Newspaper Online
Click to expand...


What a shame that both the islamist world and you just can't bring yourselves to unequivocally reject child abuse by way of child marriage.


*In Islam intellectual and physical maturity and a woman&#8217;s credible permission are prerequisites for a marriage to be valid*

And as we know, in a male dominated and controlled society such as islamist society, the child has no way of denying permission or making such choices as to what man she will be married to. 

Just another way for islamist apologists to allow the abuse of children to continue.


----------



## S.J.

Coyote said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> The subject is, actually child marriage.  Some want to make it about Mohammed.
> 
> 
> 
> Child marriage and it's causes. In Muslims the main cause is clearly Islam, and Mohammed's marriage to a 9 year old.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The main cause is poverty.  Islam is secondary.
Click to expand...

You keep blaming it on poverty, let's use some common sense here.  A muslim family is poor, so they sell their 8 or 9 year old child to another muslim who is not poor.  I guess the muslim who BUYS the little girl is just doing it to "help out" the poor family and has no intention of violating the child?  Perversion/pedophilia isn't a factor?


----------



## SherriMunnerlyn

S.J. said:


> Noomi said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> S.J. said:
> 
> 
> 
> Nor is it incest.  It's child rape, and the one person who is notorious for that practice is Muhammad.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No one raped anyone.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Really?  You don't call a 53 year old man having sex with a 9 year old girl rape?
Click to expand...


Who did that? The story in the OP is not true.


----------



## S.J.

sherrimunnerlyn said:


> s.j. said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> noomi said:
> 
> 
> 
> no one raped anyone.
> 
> 
> 
> really?  You don't call a 53 year old man having sex with a 9 year old girl rape?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> who did that? The story in the op is not true.
Click to expand...

denial.


----------



## Roudy

Coyote said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SherriMunnerlyn said:
> 
> 
> 
> What I would like to know more about is these activists, who they are, are they outsiders or rather to what extent are they outsiders,  what is their agenda.
> 
> "The number of female activists in Yemen has grown as a result of the protests in 2011. Although they face many obstacles, these are positive signs of increased awareness and a growing public debate on these issues that affect many Yemeni girls and women."
> 
> The Reason For Yemen's Child-Bride Problem Isn't What You'd Expect
> 
> 
> 
> Yemenis don't do it because of Islam.  Ya right.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Sherri posted an excellent article.  Too bad you don't bother to read it.  No one is saying Islam has nothing to do with it, however other factors in those parts of the world are far more causal (which explains why it's also prevalent in non-Islamic countries).
> 
> From her article:
> 
> 
> 
> The problem of child marriage is not confined to Yemen. It can be found across different continents, cultures, and religions.* However, one thread ties these experiences together, and that is poverty*. According to Human Rights Watch, child marriage is most prevalent in parts of sub-Saharan Africa and South Asia that are characterized by *persistent poverty and low levels of economic development*. The trend is certainly discernible in Yemen, the *poorest country in the Middle East*. The country is beset by high unemployment, widespread corruption, and rampant human rights abuses. *As a result of the economic situation, these marriages often take the shape of a commercial transaction as the father seeks the dowry payments as a means to lighten his familys financial burdens*.
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...

Yes, and that's where it differs from Muslims. 

Muslims cite religious "rights" while others in poverty marry young girls as a commercial transaction. See, there is a difference. Very good.


----------



## Roudy

S.J. said:


> sherrimunnerlyn said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> s.j. said:
> 
> 
> 
> really?  You don't call a 53 year old man having sex with a 9 year old girl rape?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> who did that? The story in the op is not true.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> denial.
Click to expand...

....is not a river in Egypt.


----------



## Roudy

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> S.J. said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Noomi said:
> 
> 
> 
> No one raped anyone.
> 
> 
> 
> Really?  You don't call a 53 year old man having sex with a 9 year old girl rape?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Who did that? The story in the OP is not true.
Click to expand...

Mohammad the prophet of Islam did that. And that's why Muslim men feel they have a God given right to marry 8 and 9 year olds.  Keep up will ya.


----------



## Coyote

Roudy said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yemenis don't do it because of Islam.  Ya right.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sherri posted an excellent article.  Too bad you don't bother to read it.  No one is saying Islam has nothing to do with it, however other factors in those parts of the world are far more causal (which explains why it's also prevalent in non-Islamic countries).
> 
> From her article:
> 
> 
> 
> The problem of child marriage is not confined to Yemen. It can be found across different continents, cultures, and religions.* However, one thread ties these experiences together, and that is poverty*. According to Human Rights Watch, child marriage is most prevalent in parts of sub-Saharan Africa and South Asia that are characterized by *persistent poverty and low levels of economic development*. The trend is certainly discernible in Yemen, the *poorest country in the Middle East*. The country is beset by high unemployment, widespread corruption, and rampant human rights abuses. *As a result of the economic situation, these marriages often take the shape of a commercial transaction as the father seeks the dowry payments as a means to lighten his familys financial burdens*.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Yes, and that's where it differs from Muslims.
> 
> Muslims cite religious "rights" while others in poverty marry young girls as a commercial transaction. See, there is a difference. Very good.
Click to expand...


The article is talking about Yemen.  _ ...As a result of the economic situation, these marriages often take the shape of a commercial transaction as the father seeks the dowry payments as a means to lighten his familys financial burdens...
_
Yemen is a Muslim country.

It specifies poverty and marriage as a commercial transaction.  In Yemen.

Read it.


----------



## Roudy

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SherriMunnerlyn said:
> 
> 
> 
> From the Babylonian Talmud: When a grown-up man has intercourse with a little girl it is nothing, for when the girl is less than this (6) (6. less than three years old) it is as if one puts the finger into the eye (7) (7. tears come to the eye again and again, so does virginity come back to the little girl under three years) Kethuboth 11b -
> 
> 
> Babylonian Talmud: Kethuboth 11
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It doesn't sound like it's "permitted"  -  looking at the link, it seems to be about penalties applied for certain types of rape.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> A history of the Mishnaic Law of Purities. 15. Niddah . Commentary - Google Books
> 
> From the Mishnah
> PG 83 Niddah Ch 5 3-5
> 
> "The girl three years and one day old is deemed capable of sexual relations...:"
Click to expand...

Geez, nice bullshit you posted there, Sherri....can you show me any country today where Jews are running around marrying girls younger than 10 or 11 legally or by religious law?

Case closed. .


----------



## Roudy

Coyote said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> Sherri posted an excellent article.  Too bad you don't bother to read it.  No one is saying Islam has nothing to do with it, however other factors in those parts of the world are far more causal (which explains why it's also prevalent in non-Islamic countries).
> 
> From her article:
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, and that's where it differs from Muslims.
> 
> Muslims cite religious "rights" while others in poverty marry young girls as a commercial transaction. See, there is a difference. Very good.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The article is talking about Yemen.  _ ...As a result of the economic situation, these marriages often take the shape of a commercial transaction as the father seeks the dowry payments as a means to lighten his family&#8217;s financial burdens...
> _
> Yemen is a Muslim country.
> 
> It specifies poverty and marriage as a commercial transaction.  In Yemen.
> 
> Read it.
Click to expand...

And if you ask the father why, he will tell you that it's allowed in Islam, because that's what Mohammad did.

Why doesn't he sell his wife then?


----------



## SherriMunnerlyn

Hollie said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> And yet, for all your continued apologetics, the sheik'ers and movers of the islamist world refuse to contradict the inventor of Islam and the perfect model for humanity.
> 
> Early Marriage | WISE Muslim Women
> 
> 
> Al-Azhar Al-Sharif in Egypt, a significant Islamic religious body, released a new manual on the rights of Muslim children that states; "Marriage in Islam is regulated by certain rules, namely, children must reach puberty and maturity so that they can get married."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes.  Must reach puberty and maturity.  That's not an 8 or 9 yr old, as is the OP.
> 
> Also from your link:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In November 2006, *ministers, politicians and scholars from almost 50 Muslim states *gathered for two days in Morocco for the first Islamic Childhood Conference, and called for "measures to eliminate all forms of discrimination against girls and all harmful traditional or customary practices, such as child marriage and female genital mutilation." *In Islam intellectual and physical maturity and a womans credible permission are prerequisites for a marriage to be valid.* There are some that argue the Prophet married Aisha bint Abu Bakr, at the age of 9 and therefore deduct that child marriage is permissible. *However, some scholars question the authenticity of the Hadith *that claims Aisha was 9 at the time of marriage as this would go against the just and merciful message of Islam, and most importantly, oppose a prerequisite of having a valid Muslim marriage.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> So Al-Azhar Al-Sharif, the highest religious body in Sunni, is making a strong statement against child marriage.
> 
> Also interesting is the reaction in the Arab world, to the claim that an 8 yr old Yemeni child died.  Even though this particular incident was shown to be false, it provoked a great deal of outrage in the Islamic world, for example: Yemen's faces false child marriage accusations- Yemen Post English Newspaper Online
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> What a shame that both the islamist world and you just can't bring yourselves to unequivocally reject child abuse by way of child marriage.
> 
> 
> *In Islam intellectual and physical maturity and a womans credible permission are prerequisites for a marriage to be valid*
> 
> And as we know, in a male dominated and controlled society such as islamist society, the child has no way of denying permission or making such choices as to what man she will be married to.
> 
> Just another way for islamist apologists to allow the abuse of children to continue.
Click to expand...


This phrase "unequivocally reject child abuse by way of child marriage", this demand you seem to desire to judgmentally place on posters here, I have not heard you say you yourself unequivocally reject child abuse by way of child marriage. And what does that even mean, this demand you place on posters here other than yourself? Who defines what child marriage is? Does childhood end at puberty, at 16, at 17, at 18, at 19, at 20, at 21? Do you define child marriage for all of us here, for everyone in every nation? Why must I judge and condemn and demonize people at your command? I refuse to do this. 

Child marriage has occurred in Israel, among Jews. It has occurred  in the US, lawfully and unlawfully, forced and voluntary, look at Elizabeth Smart , among Christians, among Mormons, Edgar Allen Poe was said to have married his 13 year old cousin. 

Who makes you the judge of morality for all?

I do not approve of child marriages, or encourage the practice,  but what I see is that the problem occurs within certain cultures and I see it as a struggle for the people inside those individual cultures to address. We outside of these societies encountering these issues can encourage the people there to advocate for rights for young girls women and try to assist them in obtaining rights, but it is their struggle. What I see you as doing is demonizing the people in these societies because of the human rights struggles they are engaged in. 

I do not have to condemn and demonize people , like you do. I refuse to be like you. 

So, what do I do? I will look up email addresses to officials in the Yemen government and I will write a letter encouraging government officials in Yemen to follow through with this proposal being discussed to raise the age for marriages, something they can do that may help the plight young girls in Yemen find themselves in.  But I wont include judgmental or demonizing language in my letter, I will not judge or demonize the people of Yemen or Muslims.


----------



## Coyote

S.J. said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Child marriage and it's causes. In Muslims the main cause is clearly Islam, and Mohammed's marriage to a 9 year old.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The main cause is poverty.  Islam is secondary.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You keep blaming it on poverty, let's use some common sense here.  A muslim family is poor, so they sell their 8 or 9 year old child to another muslim who is not poor.  I guess the muslim who BUYS the little girl is just doing it to "help out" the poor family and has no intention of violating the child?  Perversion/pedophilia isn't a factor?
Click to expand...


I'm not the one blaming poverty.  I'm citing sources such as UNICEF and human rights organizations that cite poverty as the main reason.  Take it up with them.

You seem to overlook the fact that child marriages are not limited to Muslim majority countries and in fact, the top countries for child marriages are almost evenly divided between Christian and Muslim, with a couple of Hindu nations thrown in.  Are you trying to tell me that all those non-Muslim child marriages have nothing to do with perversion?

Note - I have never stated perversion/pedophilia is not a factor.  I'm quite convinced it is when you are talking about 8 and 9 year olds.  You seem to think it's not when it's not a Muslim.


----------



## SherriMunnerlyn

Roudy said:


> S.J. said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sherrimunnerlyn said:
> 
> 
> 
> who did that? The story in the op is not true.
> 
> 
> 
> denial.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> ....is not a river in Egypt.
Click to expand...


Let us see you prove it happened.


----------



## Roudy

Coyote said:


> toastman said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> I don't know what her religion is, but there is no religion that allows it that young....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sherri slut is probably talking about Judaism. There is some sort of myth that it is allowed in Judaism
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Ahh.
> 
> Most likely a passage is taken out of it's historical context and manipulated to feed an agenda.
Click to expand...

No such passage. A woman is not considered a woman until her thirteenth birthday, which is why you have Bat-mitzvahs.  And even then it means the person is responsible for their own sins in the eyes of God. Says nothing about marriage.


----------



## Roudy

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yes.  Must reach puberty and maturity.  That's not an 8 or 9 yr old, as is the OP.
> 
> Also from your link:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So Al-Azhar Al-Sharif, the highest religious body in Sunni, is making a strong statement against child marriage.
> 
> Also interesting is the reaction in the Arab world, to the claim that an 8 yr old Yemeni child died.  Even though this particular incident was shown to be false, it provoked a great deal of outrage in the Islamic world, for example: Yemen's faces false child marriage accusations- Yemen Post English Newspaper Online
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What a shame that both the islamist world and you just can't bring yourselves to unequivocally reject child abuse by way of child marriage.
> 
> 
> *In Islam intellectual and physical maturity and a womans credible permission are prerequisites for a marriage to be valid*
> 
> And as we know, in a male dominated and controlled society such as islamist society, the child has no way of denying permission or making such choices as to what man she will be married to.
> 
> Just another way for islamist apologists to allow the abuse of children to continue.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> This phrase "unequivocally reject child abuse by way of child marriage", this demand you seem to desire to judgmentally place on posters here, I have not heard you say you yourself unequivocally reject child abuse by way of child marriage. And what does that even mean, this demand you place on posters here other than yourself? Who defines what child marriage is? Does childhood end at puberty, at 16, at 17, at 18, at 19, at 20, at 21? Do you define child marriage for all of us here, for everyone in every nation? Why must I judge and condemn and demonize people at your command? I refuse to do this.
> 
> Child marriage has occurred in Israel, among Jews. It has occurred  in the US, lawfully and unlawfully, forced and voluntary, look at Elizabeth Smart , among Christians, among Mormons, Edgar Allen Poe was said to have married his 13 year old cousin.
> 
> Who makes you the judge of morality for all?
> 
> I do not approve of child marriages, or encourage the practice,  but what I see is that the problem occurs within certain cultures and I see it as a struggle for the people inside those individual cultures to address. We outside of these societies encountering these issues can encourage the people there to advocate for rights for young girls women and try to assist them in obtaining rights, but it is their struggle. What I see you as doing is demonizing the people in these societies because of the human rights struggles they are engaged in.
> 
> I do not have to condemn and demonize people , like you do. I refuse to be like you.
> 
> So, what do I do? I will look up email addresses to officials in the Yemen government and I will write a letter encouraging government officials in Yemen to follow through with this proposal being discussed to raise the age for marriages, something they can do that may help the plight young girls in Yemen find themselves in.  But I wont include judgmental or demonizing language in my letter, I will not judge or demonize the people of Yemen or Muslims.
Click to expand...

Sherri, you who knows Iranian Muslims, ask them why it is allowed in Iran to marry 9 year olds.  Is it because they are poor and need the money <LOL at that one> or because the religious leaders said so, and Islam allows it. 

Go ahead and ask and report back to us.


----------



## Roudy

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> S.J. said:
> 
> 
> 
> denial.
> 
> 
> 
> ....is not a river in Egypt.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Let us see you prove it happened.
Click to expand...

Prove what happened?  I'm not proving the obvious to a nincompoop. It happened, and it happens in Muslim countries, all the time. Wake up.


----------



## Roudy

Coyote said:


> Aisha's age at marriage:
> 
> You decide based on actual historical analysis and ask yourself what your own agenda is in taking events out of their historical period and trying to paint Islam as a religion of pedophiles with widespread suppport for child marriage.  Outside of tradtional societies you find little to no support and even within traditional socieites support for marriage prior to puberty (which can be as young as 11 or 12).
> 
> Clearly, when modern people try to use an historical age of marriage to validate violating children - it is wrong, it is against the morals, customs and laws the world today.  It should be condemned and pressure should be put upon nations that practice it or allow it to put an end to it regardless of religion.
> 
> It should be noted that traditional scholarship is not unanimously in agreement about Aisha&#8217;s age either - the events occurred over a thousand years ago.  This gives Muslims the power they need to abolish any religious justification for the practice in Muslim majority countries around world, though it does not address the main issues driving it which are poverty and lack of education.


If there is such a divide on Aisha's age (which there isn't) then why do Muslims feel they have a right to marry 9 years olds and cite Aisha's age at the time of her marriage to Mohammed. The world you want to see is different than the world that is.  You just refuse to accept this because you've filled your mind with this alternate reality that doesn't correlate to the actual reality.


----------



## SherriMunnerlyn

Roudy said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> Aisha's age at marriage:
> 
> You decide based on actual historical analysis and ask yourself what your own agenda is in taking events out of their historical period and trying to paint Islam as a religion of pedophiles with widespread suppport for child marriage.  Outside of tradtional societies you find little to no support and even within traditional socieites support for marriage prior to puberty (which can be as young as 11 or 12).
> 
> Clearly, when modern people try to use an historical age of marriage to validate violating children - it is wrong, it is against the morals, customs and laws the world today.  It should be condemned and pressure should be put upon nations that practice it or allow it to put an end to it regardless of religion.
> 
> It should be noted that traditional scholarship is not unanimously in agreement about Aishas age either - the events occurred over a thousand years ago.  This gives Muslims the power they need to abolish any religious justification for the practice in Muslim majority countries around world, though it does not address the main issues driving it which are poverty and lack of education.
> 
> 
> 
> If there is such a divide on Aisha's age (which there isn't) then why do Muslims feel they have a right to marry 9 years olds and cite Aisha's age at the time of her marriage to Mohammed. The world you want to see is different than the world that is.  You just refuse to accept this because you've filled your mind with this alternate reality that doesn't correlate to the actual reality.
Click to expand...


Name even one person in Yemen doing this, who says I arranged a marriage for my 9 year old daughter because Aisha married Mohammad. I think you are filled with BS and hate for Muslims!


----------



## S.J.

Coyote said:


> S.J. said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> The main cause is poverty.  Islam is secondary.
> 
> 
> 
> You keep blaming it on poverty, let's use some common sense here.  A muslim family is poor, so they sell their 8 or 9 year old child to another muslim who is not poor.  I guess the muslim who BUYS the little girl is just doing it to "help out" the poor family and has no intention of violating the child?  Perversion/pedophilia isn't a factor?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I'm not the one blaming poverty.  I'm citing sources such as UNICEF and human rights organizations that cite poverty as the main reason.  Take it up with them.
> 
> You seem to overlook the fact that child marriages are not limited to Muslim majority countries and in fact, the top countries for child marriages are almost evenly divided between Christian and Muslim, with a couple of Hindu nations thrown in.  Are you trying to tell me that all those non-Muslim child marriages have nothing to do with perversion?
> 
> Note - I have never stated perversion/pedophilia is not a factor.  I'm quite convinced it is when you are talking about 8 and 9 year olds.  You seem to think it's not when it's not a Muslim.
Click to expand...

Name a few "non muslim" countries that allow child marriages.


----------



## Coyote

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SherriMunnerlyn said:
> 
> 
> 
> From the Babylonian Talmud: When a grown-up man has intercourse with a little girl it is nothing, for when the girl is less than this (6) (6. less than three years old) it is as if one puts the finger into the eye (7) (7. tears come to the eye again and again, so does virginity come back to the little girl under three years) Kethuboth 11b -
> 
> 
> Babylonian Talmud: Kethuboth 11
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It doesn't sound like it's "permitted"  -  looking at the link, it seems to be about penalties applied for certain types of rape.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> A history of the Mishnaic Law of Purities. 15. Niddah . Commentary - Google Books
> 
> From the Mishnah
> PG 83 Niddah Ch 5 3-5
> 
> "The girl three years and one day old is deemed capable of sexual relations...:"
Click to expand...


So that is from "A history of the Mishnaic Law of Purities" which sounds as complex and constraining and archaic as all those Islamic codes ... which makes it kind of laughable when people try to single out Islam as a socio-political system some how different from other religions...

It's talking about "Niddah".  When I look it up in Wikipedia, it's seems to be rules pertaining to impure (menstrating) women....a bit medievil.  Children conceived during Niddah are (ben Niddah) are considered "tainted".  

It does state as an example - "a girl 3 yrs old betrothed by intercourse." when talking about legal status of children.  

I'll admit - I don't know exactly what to make of it - I'm certainly not a scholar -  except to say, that like Islam - many of these rules and cases applied to a culture that existed several thousand years ago and should be viewed in their historical context.


----------



## SherriMunnerlyn

Roudy said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> toastman said:
> 
> 
> 
> Sherri slut is probably talking about Judaism. There is some sort of myth that it is allowed in Judaism
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ahh.
> 
> Most likely a passage is taken out of it's historical context and manipulated to feed an agenda.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> No such passage. A woman is not considered a woman until her thirteenth birthday, which is why you have Bat-mitzvahs.  And even then it means the person is responsible for their own sins in the eyes of God. Says nothing about marriage.
Click to expand...


Does the Mishnah exist?


----------



## Jos

Roudy said:


> Geez, nice bullshit you posted there, Sherri....can you show me any country today where Jews are running around marrying girls younger than 10 or 11 legally or by religious law?
> 
> Case closed. .



They no longer feel the need to marry the "little ones"
Let me google that for you


----------



## SherriMunnerlyn

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> Ahh.
> 
> Most likely a passage is taken out of it's historical context and manipulated to feed an agenda.
> 
> 
> 
> No such passage. A woman is not considered a woman until her thirteenth birthday, which is why you have Bat-mitzvahs.  And even then it means the person is responsible for their own sins in the eyes of God. Says nothing about marriage.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Does the Mishnah exist?
Click to expand...


A history of the Mishnaic Law of Purities. 15. Niddah . Commentary

*edited by Jacob Neusner

PG 83, you can read it online


A history of the Mishnaic Law of Purities. 15. Niddah . Commentary - Google Books


----------



## Coyote

S.J. said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> S.J. said:
> 
> 
> 
> You keep blaming it on poverty, let's use some common sense here.  A muslim family is poor, so they sell their 8 or 9 year old child to another muslim who is not poor.  I guess the muslim who BUYS the little girl is just doing it to "help out" the poor family and has no intention of violating the child?  Perversion/pedophilia isn't a factor?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not the one blaming poverty.  I'm citing sources such as UNICEF and human rights organizations that cite poverty as the main reason.  Take it up with them.
> 
> You seem to overlook the fact that child marriages are not limited to Muslim majority countries and in fact, the top countries for child marriages are almost evenly divided between Christian and Muslim, with a couple of Hindu nations thrown in.  Are you trying to tell me that all those non-Muslim child marriages have nothing to do with perversion?
> 
> Note - I have never stated perversion/pedophilia is not a factor.  I'm quite convinced it is when you are talking about 8 and 9 year olds.  You seem to think it's not when it's not a Muslim.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Name a few "non muslim" countries that allow child marriages.
Click to expand...


Do you mean allow as in legal ages of consent or allow as in age of consent is poorly enforced and as a result they have high rates of child marriages?

Much of this was gone into earlier in the this thread.

Worldwide ages of consent vary: http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...XzY8i9ULsXwVqMg&bvm=bv.52434380,d.dmg&cad=rja

Mexico and Angola have the lowest legal age of consent (for females): 12.  They are also Christian majority countries.


----------



## Coyote

Jos said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Geez, nice bullshit you posted there, Sherri....can you show me any country today where Jews are running around marrying girls younger than 10 or 11 legally or by religious law?
> 
> Case closed. .
> 
> 
> 
> 
> They no longer feel the need to marry the "little ones"
> Let me google that for you
Click to expand...


So...all that shows is that some Rabbis, like some priests, ministers, immams take advantage of their calling to molest children.


----------



## SherriMunnerlyn

Jos said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Geez, nice bullshit you posted there, Sherri....can you show me any country today where Jews are running around marrying girls younger than 10 or 11 legally or by religious law?
> 
> Case closed. .
> 
> 
> 
> 
> They no longer feel the need to marry the "little ones"
> Let me google that for you
Click to expand...


In the case of Avrohom Mondrowitz, who actually sodomized Jewish children, the Gerrer leadership has protected him for 26 years and will continue to do so. It is certainly not because they feel that child rape is acceptable by the Torah.There are three main issues here: 1) The severity of the sin (the fact that it is a crime as well doesn't matter to them because they don't hold by dina d'malchusa). 2) The long term effects on the victim. 3) The repercussions on the molester's family and on the community as a whole. What the rabbis have concluded is that the severity of the sin and the effects on the victim are not strong enough to outweigh the potential damage to the families and the community. They are clueless as to how severe the damaging effects are on the victim. Case in point: one of the victims of Stefan Colmer came to his rebbe, Rabbi Ginzberg of Mirrer Yeshiva complaining that Colmer performed oral sex on him. The boy told the rabbi that Colmer continued until the boy came in his mouth. The rabbi answered, "Nu, so you'll get over it!" Another case in point is the Tropper scandal where his sins were widely reported and the rabbis remain silent till this day.


Why Do Haredi Rabbis Often Turn A Blind Eye To Child Sexual Abuse? - FailedMessiah.com


----------



## SherriMunnerlyn

Coyote said:


> Jos said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Geez, nice bullshit you posted there, Sherri....can you show me any country today where Jews are running around marrying girls younger than 10 or 11 legally or by religious law?
> 
> Case closed. .
> 
> 
> 
> 
> They no longer feel the need to marry the "little ones"
> Let me google that for you
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> So...all that shows is that some Rabbis, like some priests, ministers, immams take advantage of their calling to molest children.
Click to expand...


That is right, like some fathers arrange child marriages for their daughters. They include fathers from different religions and cultures. Not all of them do it, fathers that is. Most of us see this conduct as morally wrong, and also the conduct of priests and rabbis and imams who abuse kids. There are things we can most of us agree about, I think.


----------



## toastman

Jos said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Geez, nice bullshit you posted there, Sherri....can you show me any country today where Jews are running around marrying girls younger than 10 or 11 legally or by religious law?
> 
> Case closed. .
> 
> 
> 
> 
> They no longer feel the need to marry the "little ones"
> Let me google that for you
Click to expand...


Just curious Jos, what's your point ?


----------



## Roudy

The fact that Jews (even the most religious ones) aren't marrying girls at said ages, is proof enough that this is a false claim.  I've heard all kinds of lies about Jews and Judaism, this ain't one of them.


----------



## Roudy

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> Jos said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Geez, nice bullshit you posted there, Sherri....can you show me any country today where Jews are running around marrying girls younger than 10 or 11 legally or by religious law?
> 
> Case closed. .
> 
> 
> 
> 
> They no longer feel the need to marry the "little ones"
> Let me google that for you
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> In the case of Avrohom Mondrowitz, who actually sodomized Jewish children, the Gerrer leadership has protected him for 26 years and will continue to do so. It is certainly not because they feel that child rape is acceptable by the Torah.There are three main issues here: 1) The severity of the sin (the fact that it is a crime as well doesn't matter to them because they don't hold by dina d'malchusa). 2) The long term effects on the victim. 3) The repercussions on the molester's family and on the community as a whole. What the rabbis have concluded is that the severity of the sin and the effects on the victim are not strong enough to outweigh the potential damage to the families and the community. They are clueless as to how severe the damaging effects are on the victim. Case in point: one of the victims of Stefan Colmer came to his rebbe, Rabbi Ginzberg of Mirrer Yeshiva complaining that Colmer performed oral sex on him. The boy told the rabbi that Colmer continued until the boy came in his mouth. The rabbi answered, "Nu, so you'll get over it!" Another case in point is the Tropper scandal where his sins were widely reported and the rabbis remain silent till this day.
> 
> 
> Why Do Haredi Rabbis Often Turn A Blind Eye To Child Sexual Abuse? - FailedMessiah.com
Click to expand...

Ha ha ha.  Child sexual abuse or child marriage is not sanctioned in Judaism.  There are perverts in every religion, as we have found out with the Catholic priests recently.  However nobody can cite anything in Catholicism that could be interpreted as a permission to commit child abuse.  As with Mohammad's marriage to Aisha.

You guys will knock on all doors and throw anything you can at the wall, won't you?


----------



## Roudy

Coyote said:


> S.J. said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not the one blaming poverty.  I'm citing sources such as UNICEF and human rights organizations that cite poverty as the main reason.  Take it up with them.
> 
> You seem to overlook the fact that child marriages are not limited to Muslim majority countries and in fact, the top countries for child marriages are almost evenly divided between Christian and Muslim, with a couple of Hindu nations thrown in.  Are you trying to tell me that all those non-Muslim child marriages have nothing to do with perversion?
> 
> Note - I have never stated perversion/pedophilia is not a factor.  I'm quite convinced it is when you are talking about 8 and 9 year olds.  You seem to think it's not when it's not a Muslim.
> 
> 
> 
> Name a few "non muslim" countries that allow child marriages.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Do you mean allow as in legal ages of consent or allow as in age of consent is poorly enforced and as a result they have high rates of child marriages?
> 
> Much of this was gone into earlier in the this thread.
> 
> Worldwide ages of consent vary: http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...XzY8i9ULsXwVqMg&bvm=bv.52434380,d.dmg&cad=rja
> 
> Mexico and Angola have the lowest legal age of consent (for females): 12.  They are also Christian majority countries.
Click to expand...

Yet according to your UNICEF child marriage is most prevalent among Muslim majority countries, and they cite Islamic and shariah law.  Why do you choose to cite certain facts and data and totally omit the most relevant and damning ones?


----------



## Roudy

Coyote said:


> S.J. said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> The main cause is poverty.  Islam is secondary.
> 
> 
> 
> You keep blaming it on poverty, let's use some common sense here.  A muslim family is poor, so they sell their 8 or 9 year old child to another muslim who is not poor.  I guess the muslim who BUYS the little girl is just doing it to "help out" the poor family and has no intention of violating the child?  Perversion/pedophilia isn't a factor?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I'm not the one blaming poverty.  I'm citing sources such as UNICEF and human rights organizations that cite poverty as the main reason.  Take it up with them.
> 
> You seem to overlook the fact that child marriages are not limited to Muslim majority countries and in fact, the top countries for child marriages are almost evenly divided between Christian and Muslim, with a couple of Hindu nations thrown in.  Are you trying to tell me that all those non-Muslim child marriages have nothing to do with perversion?
> 
> Note - I have never stated perversion/pedophilia is not a factor.  I'm quite convinced it is when you are talking about 8 and 9 year olds.  You seem to think it's not when it's not a Muslim.
Click to expand...

Now you're spreading disinformation.  Did you totally forget my post that indicated that even in India, they passed a law banning marriage under the age of 18, which is acceptable to the Hindu majority, as well as Christians, Bahaiis, and Jews, and the only people that keep doing it are the 300 million Indian Muslims, citing a religious right to do so?  Which is again, why it is most prevalent in India among Indian Muslims?

More damning data omitted in favor of disinformation and whitewashing.


----------



## Roudy

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jos said:
> 
> 
> 
> They no longer feel the need to marry the "little ones"
> Let me google that for you
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So...all that shows is that some Rabbis, like some priests, ministers, immams take advantage of their calling to molest children.
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> That is right, like some fathers arrange child marriages for their daughters. They include fathers from different religions and cultures. Not all of them do it, fathers that is. Most of us see this conduct as morally wrong, and also the conduct of priests and rabbis and imams who abuse kids. There are things we can most of us agree about, I think.
Click to expand...

By the way Sherri, did you ask your Iranian Muslim friend if the reason men are allowed to marry 9 year olds in Iran was due to poverty, or Islam?  

I'm holding my breath here, you know, and I can't do it much longer.


----------



## Coyote

Roudy said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> S.J. said:
> 
> 
> 
> Name a few "non muslim" countries that allow child marriages.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Do you mean allow as in legal ages of consent or allow as in age of consent is poorly enforced and as a result they have high rates of child marriages?
> 
> Much of this was gone into earlier in the this thread.
> 
> Worldwide ages of consent vary: http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...XzY8i9ULsXwVqMg&bvm=bv.52434380,d.dmg&cad=rja
> 
> Mexico and Angola have the lowest legal age of consent (for females): 12.  They are also Christian majority countries.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Yet according to your UNICEF child marriage is most prevalent among Muslim majority countries, and they cite Islamic and shariah law.  Why do you choose to cite certain facts and data and totally omit the most relevant and damning ones?
Click to expand...


The same reason you do.  UNICEF also cites poverty and lack of education as among the key drivers of child marriages.

The top twenty countries with the highest rates are spread out between religions:  http://www.usmessageboard.com/7850877-post437.html

If you truly want to look at religion, prevalence and proportion: there are only two Hindu dominant countries.  Nepal and India.  They are both amongst the highest in terms of child marriage.


----------



## Coyote

Roudy said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> S.J. said:
> 
> 
> 
> You keep blaming it on poverty, let's use some common sense here.  A muslim family is poor, so they sell their 8 or 9 year old child to another muslim who is not poor.  I guess the muslim who BUYS the little girl is just doing it to "help out" the poor family and has no intention of violating the child?  Perversion/pedophilia isn't a factor?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not the one blaming poverty.  I'm citing sources such as UNICEF and human rights organizations that cite poverty as the main reason.  Take it up with them.
> 
> You seem to overlook the fact that child marriages are not limited to Muslim majority countries and in fact, the top countries for child marriages are almost evenly divided between Christian and Muslim, with a couple of Hindu nations thrown in.  Are you trying to tell me that all those non-Muslim child marriages have nothing to do with perversion?
> 
> Note - I have never stated perversion/pedophilia is not a factor.  I'm quite convinced it is when you are talking about 8 and 9 year olds.  You seem to think it's not when it's not a Muslim.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Now you're spreading disinformation.  Did you totally forget my post that indicated that even in India, they passed a law banning marriage under the age of 18, which is acceptable to the Hindu majority, as well as Christians, Bahaiis, and Jews, and the only people that keep doing it are the 300 million Indian Muslims, citing a religious right to do so?  Which is again, why it is most prevalent in India among Indian Muslims?
> 
> More damning data omitted in favor of disinformation and whitewashing.
Click to expand...


No disinformation but rather selective information coming from you.

They can pass a law banning - but the majority of child marriages are occuring, in defiance of the law, in Hindu dominated states, as I pointed out.

"and the only people that keep doing it are the 300 million Indian Muslims" - uh really now?  Would you like to prove that?  Perhaps you can explain how that fits the facts: http://www.usmessageboard.com/7856065-post451.html


----------



## SherriMunnerlyn

Coyote said:


> SherriMunnerlyn said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> It doesn't sound like it's "permitted"  -  looking at the link, it seems to be about penalties applied for certain types of rape.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A history of the Mishnaic Law of Purities. 15. Niddah . Commentary - Google Books
> 
> From the Mishnah
> PG 83 Niddah Ch 5 3-5
> 
> "The girl three years and one day old is deemed capable of sexual relations...:"
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> So that is from "A history of the Mishnaic Law of Purities" which sounds as complex and constraining and archaic as all those Islamic codes ... which makes it kind of laughable when people try to single out Islam as a socio-political system some how different from other religions...
> 
> It's talking about "Niddah".  When I look it up in Wikipedia, it's seems to be rules pertaining to impure (menstrating) women....a bit medievil.  Children conceived during Niddah are (ben Niddah) are considered "tainted".
> 
> It does state as an example - "a girl 3 yrs old betrothed by intercourse." when talking about legal status of children.
> 
> I'll admit - I don't know exactly what to make of it - I'm certainly not a scholar -  except to say, that like Islam - many of these rules and cases applied to a culture that existed several thousand years ago and should be viewed in their historical context.
Click to expand...


The Mishnah

Around the year 200 CE, following the loss of many Jewish teachers in the failed Great Revolt and Bar-Kokhba rebellion, Rabbi Yehudah Ha-Nasi decided to secure Judaism's Oral Law by codifying it into 63 tractates called the Mishnah. The Mishnah is considered the first work of Rabbinic Judaism. The rabbis whose views are cited in the Mishnah are known as*Tanna'im(teachers).*

The Mishnah consists of six*sedarim(orders), which each contain 7-12masechtot*(tractates), which are each divided into*mishnayot*(verses).*The Six Orders of the Mishnah (Shisha Sidrei Mishnah): Zeraim*(Seeds)agricultural laws and prayers Moed*(Festival)Jewish holidays and Sabbath Nashim(Women)marriage and divorce Nezikin*(Damages)civil and criminal law Kodashim*(Holy Things)sacrificial rites, the Temple, dietary laws Tohorot*(Purities)laws of purity and impurity

Mishnah - Judaism's Oral Torah - Rabbinic Judaism


----------



## MHunterB

Yes, that is a discussion by the rabbis attempting to sort out how to deal with the crime of rape against a HYPOTHETICAL child who obviously is far too young to be seen as a 'sexual' being.

It is not, and never was, a discussion of when it was 'acceptable' to inflict sexual intercourse upon a three year old child.

And it's also something which existed as Oral teaching for quite a few hundred years before it was written down ca 200 CE.

It's no more an 'endorsement' of child rape than the passages about Aisha are.

OR - for that matter! - considering a priest who sodomized altar boys to still be keeping his priestly vow of 'celibacy'.


----------



## MHunterB

The passage is actually about the certificate of marriage, the ketubah (pl. ketubot).  
Simply because some very bizarre situations are mentioned by one or another of the scholars whose debates are recorded in the Mishnah, does NOT mean that they're suggesting or approving of any of it.

These discussions are attempting to discuss every last possibility which can be imagined.

Of course, as the editor Dr Neusner is still alive, someone could contact him and ask him to explain it.


----------



## Coyote

MHunterB said:


> Yes, that is a discussion by the rabbis attempting to sort out how to deal with the crime of rape against a HYPOTHETICAL child who obviously is far too young to be seen as a 'sexual' being.
> 
> It is not, and never was, a discussion of when it was 'acceptable' to inflict sexual intercourse upon a three year old child.
> 
> And it's also something which existed as Oral teaching for quite a few hundred years before it was written down ca 200 CE.
> 
> *It's no more an 'endorsement' of child rape than the passages about Aisha are.*
> 
> *OR - for that matter! - considering a priest who sodomized altar boys to still be keeping his priestly vow of 'celibacy'.*



Thanks Marge, that is kind of what I thought - but wasn't sure what it was that I was reading


----------



## Roudy

The rights of women in traditional Judaism are much greater than they were in the rest of Western civilization until the 20th century. Women had the right to buy, sell, and own property, and make their own contracts, rights which women in Western countries (including America) did not have until about 100 years ago. In fact, Proverbs 31:10-31, which is traditionally read at Jewish weddings, speaks repeatedly of business acumen as a trait to be prized in women (v. 11, 13, 16, and 18 especially). 

Women have the right to be consulted with regard to their marriage. Marital sex is regarded as the woman's right, and not the man's. Men do not have the right to beat or mistreat their wives, a right that was recognized by law in many Western countries until a few hundred years ago. In cases of rape, a woman is generally presumed not to have consented to the intercourse, even if she enjoyed it, even if she consented after the sexual act began and declined a rescue! This is in sharp contrast to American society, where even today rape victims often have to overcome public suspicion that they "asked for it" or "wanted it." Traditional Judaism recognizes that forced sexual relations within the context of marriage are rape and are not permitted; in many states in America today, rape within marriage is still not a crime. 

*Is 13 an Adult?*

Many people mock the idea that a 12 or 13 year old child is an adult, claiming that it is an outdated notion based on the needs of an agricultural society. This criticism comes from a misunderstanding of the significance of becoming a bar mitzvah. 

Bar mitzvah is not about being a full adult in every sense of the word, ready to marry, go out on your own, earn a living and raise children. The Talmud makes this abundantly clear. In Pirkei Avot, it is said that while 13 is the proper age for fulfillment of the Commandments, *18 is the proper age for marriage* and 20 is the proper age for earning a livelihood. Elsewhere in the Talmud, the proper age for marriage is said to be 16-24.

Case closed.


----------



## SherriMunnerlyn

Roudy said:


> The rights of women in traditional Judaism are much greater than they were in the rest of Western civilization until the 20th century. Women had the right to buy, sell, and own property, and make their own contracts, rights which women in Western countries (including America) did not have until about 100 years ago. In fact, Proverbs 31:10-31, which is traditionally read at Jewish weddings, speaks repeatedly of business acumen as a trait to be prized in women (v. 11, 13, 16, and 18 especially).
> 
> Women have the right to be consulted with regard to their marriage. Marital sex is regarded as the woman's right, and not the man's. Men do not have the right to beat or mistreat their wives, a right that was recognized by law in many Western countries until a few hundred years ago. In cases of rape, a woman is generally presumed not to have consented to the intercourse, even if she enjoyed it, even if she consented after the sexual act began and declined a rescue! This is in sharp contrast to American society, where even today rape victims often have to overcome public suspicion that they "asked for it" or "wanted it." Traditional Judaism recognizes that forced sexual relations within the context of marriage are rape and are not permitted; in many states in America today, rape within marriage is still not a crime.
> 
> *Is 13 an Adult?*
> 
> Many people mock the idea that a 12 or 13 year old child is an adult, claiming that it is an outdated notion based on the needs of an agricultural society. This criticism comes from a misunderstanding of the significance of becoming a bar mitzvah.
> 
> Bar mitzvah is not about being a full adult in every sense of the word, ready to marry, go out on your own, earn a living and raise children. The Talmud makes this abundantly clear. In Pirkei Avot, it is said that while 13 is the proper age for fulfillment of the Commandments, *18 is the proper age for marriage* and 20 is the proper age for earning a livelihood. Elsewhere in the Talmud, the proper age for marriage is said to be 16-24.
> 
> Case closed.



That is not all the Talmud says, as has been addressed with the verses I set forth in the Mishnah I provided a cite for. They are obviously interpreted differently, today and in the past, explaining child marriages in the past and today. I previously provided a link to an article addressing recent cases of child marriage that have occurred among Jews in Israel.


----------



## SherriMunnerlyn

Another story of child-brides emerged several years ago in Israel&#8217;s north. Rabbi Shlomo Eliezer Schick of the Bratslav Hassidic movement in Yavne&#8217;el in the Galilee*was arrested*&#8220;for officiating the marriages of some 20 underage couples, mostly ages 12 to 16,&#8221; according to Ha&#8217;aretz. In Israel, marriage under the age of 17 is illegal. Schick actually has a bit of a following, and even his own nickname &#8220;The Mohorosh,&#8221; although if he has continued to marry off children, he has been doing it under the radar. 

http://m.forward.com/blogs/sisterhood-blog/136547/jewish-child-brides-%A0why-the-barbaric-practice-o


----------



## Coyote

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> Another story of child-brides emerged several years ago in Israel&#8217;s north. Rabbi Shlomo Eliezer Schick of the Bratslav Hassidic movement in Yavne&#8217;el in the Galilee*was arrested*&#8220;for officiating the marriages of some 20 underage couples, mostly ages 12 to 16,&#8221; according to Ha&#8217;aretz. In Israel, marriage under the age of 17 is illegal. Schick actually has a bit of a following, and even his own nickname &#8220;The Mohorosh,&#8221; although if he has continued to marry off children, he has been doing it under the radar.
> 
> Mishnah - Judaism's Oral Torah - Rabbinic Judaism



That reminds me of some of the pseudo Christian cults in the US, like Warren Jeffs, who forced kids into marriage.  It's easy to distort religion into a self-serving cult.


----------



## toastman

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> Another story of child-brides emerged several years ago in Israels north. Rabbi Shlomo Eliezer Schick of the Bratslav Hassidic movement in Yavneel in the Galilee*was arrested*for officiating the marriages of some 20 underage couples, mostly ages 12 to 16, according to Haaretz. In Israel, marriage under the age of 17 is illegal. Schick actually has a bit of a following, and even his own nickname The Mohorosh, although if he has continued to marry off children, he has been doing it under the radar.
> 
> Jewish Child Brides ?*Why the Barbaric Practice of Marrying Off Young Girls Persists ? The Sisterhood ? Forward.com



Let us know when the Jewish government allows for child marriages. Right now you're just trying to take the attention away from the real issue, and it's making you look desperate. Got your back to the wall , Sherri Munnernazi ?


----------



## SherriMunnerlyn

Coyote said:


> SherriMunnerlyn said:
> 
> 
> 
> Another story of child-brides emerged several years ago in Israels north. Rabbi Shlomo Eliezer Schick of the Bratslav Hassidic movement in Yavneel in the Galilee*was arrested*for officiating the marriages of some 20 underage couples, mostly ages 12 to 16, according to Haaretz. In Israel, marriage under the age of 17 is illegal. Schick actually has a bit of a following, and even his own nickname The Mohorosh, although if he has continued to marry off children, he has been doing it under the radar.
> 
> Mishnah - Judaism's Oral Torah - Rabbinic Judaism
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That reminds me of some of the pseudo Christian cults in the US, like Warren Jeffs, who forced kids into marriage.  It's easy to distort religion into a self-serving cult.
Click to expand...


There are extremists in all religions. In the US, there is a problem with Polygamy among Mormons and I believe child marriages are occurring with that too. I know I have heard stories of young girls/women escaping these marriages.


----------



## SherriMunnerlyn

Polygamy and Mormonism are inseparably entwined. One of the most offensive aspects of Mormon-based polygamy is the rampant practice of taking underage girls as polygamous wives. This is precisely what Brian David Mitchell did when he abducted Elizabeth Smart. In the western United States, there are at least 30,000 people involved in the practice of Mormon-based polygamy. In these polygamous groups, the compulsion for underage girls to marry polygamists--usually men much older than themselves--is a part of everyday life. In these communities, girls as young as 12 or 13 are often married off to priesthood leaders. The most powerful and influential of these priesthood holders have first pick of the girls. Parents of the young girls submit their daughters willingly into these unions with the hope of being blessed by God in their afterlife.

Child Brides - Mormon - Polygamy


----------



## Coyote

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> Polygamy and Mormonism are inseparably entwined. One of the most offensive aspects of Mormon-based polygamy is the rampant practice of taking underage girls as polygamous wives. This is precisely what Brian David Mitchell did when he abducted Elizabeth Smart. In the western United States, there are at least 30,000 people involved in the practice of Mormon-based polygamy. In these polygamous groups, the compulsion for underage girls to marry polygamists--usually men much older than themselves--is a part of everyday life. In these communities, girls as young as 12 or 13 are often married off to priesthood leaders. The most powerful and influential of these priesthood holders have first pick of the girls. Parents of the young girls submit their daughters willingly into these unions with the hope of being blessed by God in their afterlife.
> 
> Child Brides - Mormon - Polygamy



I have to laugh....

My great great Grandmother came over from Norway to marry a Mormon (her father sent his kids over one at a time after he converted).  When she got there, the young man was sent off on a mission and she was married to an old man, as a plural wife.  I think she was 14.

To be honest - I don't care one way or the other about polygamy - as long as it's between consenting adults and not coerced.  But often, it seems to become an excuse for old men to marry increasingly younger wives.


----------



## MHunterB

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> Polygamy and Mormonism are inseparably entwined. One of the most offensive aspects of Mormon-based polygamy is the rampant practice of taking underage girls as polygamous wives. *This is precisely what Brian David Mitchell did when he abducted Elizabeth Smart*. In the western United States, there are at least 30,000 people involved in the practice of Mormon-based polygamy. In these polygamous groups, the compulsion for underage girls to marry polygamists--usually men much older than themselves--is a part of everyday life. In these communities, girls as young as 12 or 13 are often married off to priesthood leaders. The most powerful and influential of these priesthood holders have first pick of the girls. Parents of the young girls submit their daughters willingly into these unions with the hope of being blessed by God in their afterlife.
> 
> Child Brides - Mormon - Polygamy



*No.* What Mitchell did was *kidnap* Elizabeth Smart:  it was a crime regardless of her age.  And her parents most certainly didn't agree.


----------



## SherriMunnerlyn

The Jews of the British Crown Colony of Aden: History, Culture, and Ethnic ... - Reuben Ahroni - Google Books


This is interesting,  a book addressing child marriage among the Jews of Yemen. It is said the practice was common, children were commonly married at age 9 and 10. This supports the argument child marriage in Yemen is primarily cultural. Or does someone here really want to argue it was the influence of Judaism that is the primary explanation for this?


----------



## SherriMunnerlyn

The photo below shows two little girls, recent immigrants from Yemen to Israel. The girl on the left is said to be married, the girl on the right is not. They look about age 8 or 9. 






"The Yemenite girl was often engaged to be married before she was twelve years old, and she was not able to choose her future husband. When young children were orphaned, there was a danger that the Yemenis might force their conversion to Islam and remove them from the Jewish community. Thus, marriages of very young people were often arranged to prevent this tragedy. However, it appears that young girls lived with their husbands only after they matured. Marriage to older men was not unknown, and neither was polygamy. The major circumstance leading to polygamy was the practice of*levirate marriage*(a religious obligation to marry the wife of a brother who died without issue), which was encouraged among Yemenite Jews even into the twentieth century. Following her wedding, the bride moved to her mother-in-law&#8217;s house where she joined the pool of female workers, continuing the same arduous tasks that she had been trained for by her own mother."

Yemen and the Yishuv | Jewish Women's Archive

But it is interesting reading also how the Jews of Yemen followed the practice of levirate marriage, that is discussed in the Mishnah verses I cited earlier, in addition to having their daughters enter into child marriages.

Was it culture or religion that primarily explained child marriage among the Jews of Yemen?

I think it was primarily culture, but religion seems to have played a role, too.


----------



## MHunterB

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> "The Yemenite girl was often engaged to be married before she was twelve years old, and she was not able to choose her future husband. *When young children were orphaned, there was a danger that the Yemenis might force their conversion to Islam and remove them from the Jewish community. Thus, marriages of very young people were often arranged to prevent this tragedy.* However, it appears that young girls lived with their husbands only after they matured. Marriage to older men was not unknown, and neither was polygamy. The major circumstance leading to polygamy was the practice of*levirate marriage*(a religious obligation to marry the wife of a brother who died without issue), which was encouraged among Yemenite Jews even into the twentieth century. Following her wedding, the bride moved to her mother-in-laws house where she joined the pool of female workers, continuing the same arduous tasks that she had been trained for by her own mother."
> 
> Yemen and the Yishuv | Jewish Women's Archive
> 
> But it is interesting reading also how the Jews of Yemen followed the practice of levirate marriage, that is discussed in the Mishnah verses I cited earlier, in addition to having their daughters enter into child marriages.



The reason for this practice is right there in the quote:  to prevent the abduction and forced conversion of orphaned girls.   

Of course there are hardly any Jews left alive in Yemen.  
Yemeni Jews secretly airlifted to Israel | Jewish Telegraphic Agency


----------



## MHunterB

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> The Jews of the British Crown Colony of Aden: History, Culture, and Ethnic ... - Reuben Ahroni - Google Books
> 
> 
> This is interesting,  a book addressing child marriage among the Jews of Yemen. It is said the practice was common, children were commonly married at age 9 and 10. This supports the argument child marriage in Yemen is primarily cultural. Or does someone here really want to argue it was the influence of Judaism that is the primary explanation for this?



It is very clear from the text of this book you've quoted, that the 'influence' in Yemen was a Yemeni LAW which required the conversion from Judaism to Islam of ay orphan unmarried girl who had not yet reached 'majority' age.

I think it's very obvious that this situation is a result of that Yemeni 'law' - and not of any cultural or religious preference of the Jewish Yemenite community.


----------



## SherriMunnerlyn

MHunterB said:


> SherriMunnerlyn said:
> 
> 
> 
> "The Yemenite girl was often engaged to be married before she was twelve years old, and she was not able to choose her future husband. *When young children were orphaned, there was a danger that the Yemenis might force their conversion to Islam and remove them from the Jewish community. Thus, marriages of very young people were often arranged to prevent this tragedy.* However, it appears that young girls lived with their husbands only after they matured. Marriage to older men was not unknown, and neither was polygamy. The major circumstance leading to polygamy was the practice of*levirate marriage*(a religious obligation to marry the wife of a brother who died without issue), which was encouraged among Yemenite Jews even into the twentieth century. Following her wedding, the bride moved to her mother-in-laws house where she joined the pool of female workers, continuing the same arduous tasks that she had been trained for by her own mother."
> 
> Yemen and the Yishuv | Jewish Women's Archive
> 
> But it is interesting reading also how the Jews of Yemen followed the practice of levirate marriage, that is discussed in the Mishnah verses I cited earlier, in addition to having their daughters enter into child marriages.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The reason for this practice is right there in the quote:  to prevent the abduction and forced conversion of orphaned girls.
> 
> Of course there are hardly any Jews left alive in Yemen.
> Yemeni Jews secretly airlifted to Israel | Jewish Telegraphic Agency
Click to expand...


That was not the only reason for child marriages, they were the accepted practice all across Yemen society.


----------



## SherriMunnerlyn

Life was difficult for women. And I expect life for women in Yemen remains difficult. 

"In times of mourning (and these were not rare in Yemen), the women got together (they sat in a separate room duringshivah) and more easily provided comfort to one another. Mortality was high and the women shared each other&#8217;s sorrows, so many having unfortunately gone through the same experiences. Infant mortality reached dreadful proportions. It was not uncommon for a woman to give birth to twelve children and see only two reach adulthood. A special function thus emerged for some Yemenite women: official mourners. Referred to also as &#8220;wailing women,&#8221; they had the unique task of leading the women&#8217;s crying during the first three days of the*shivah. This performance channeled the other women in the group and focused their weeping.*..."

"The Jewish community of Yemen was extremely conservative, both in its everyday lifestyle and in its Sabbath, holiday and ritual observances and celebrations. Accordingly, tradition required that a woman&#8217;s life would also be carefully circumscribed from infancy to maturity."  

Yemen and the Yishuv | Jewish Women's Archive


----------



## irosie91

MHunterB said:


> SherriMunnerlyn said:
> 
> 
> 
> "The Yemenite girl was often engaged to be married before she was twelve years old, and she was not able to choose her future husband. *When young children were orphaned, there was a danger that the Yemenis might force their conversion to Islam and remove them from the Jewish community. Thus, marriages of very young people were often arranged to prevent this tragedy.* However, it appears that young girls lived with their husbands only after they matured. Marriage to older men was not unknown, and neither was polygamy. The major circumstance leading to polygamy was the practice of*levirate marriage*(a religious obligation to marry the wife of a brother who died without issue), which was encouraged among Yemenite Jews even into the twentieth century. Following her wedding, the bride moved to her mother-in-laws house where she joined the pool of female workers, continuing the same arduous tasks that she had been trained for by her own mother."
> 
> Yemen and the Yishuv | Jewish Women's Archive
> 
> But it is interesting reading also how the Jews of Yemen followed the practice of levirate marriage, that is discussed in the Mishnah verses I cited earlier, in addition to having their daughters enter into child marriages.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The reason for this practice is right there in the quote:  to prevent the abduction and forced conversion of orphaned girls.
> 
> Of course there are hardly any Jews left alive in Yemen.
> Yemeni Jews secretly airlifted to Israel | Jewish Telegraphic Agency
Click to expand...



My mother-in-law was married at---(probably----birth records in yemen did not actually 
exist)   age 12------because her father died when she was 11.     She was married to 
save her from the DHIMMI ORPHAN LAW   ----as marge noted.    Death rates were 
high in Yemen------and the dhimmi orphan law was the gross horror that galvanized 
early marriages for BOTH  girls and boys-----      my father-in-law was probably about 16---
which some people here also consider a  "child marriage"         Now for the good news----
right after they married -------they began their escape from Yemen-----it took many 
years-------from early 1930s----to  early 1940s since it was illegal for jews to emigrate 
from that country-----hubby was born about one year before they finally made it out of 
that hell-hole---------he is one of ten.       The marriage turned out to be quite a romance.
Because of the dhimmi orphan law ----all kinds of unusual marriages were made 
in Yemen.    Such arrangements rendered legal----MOVING ABOUT and the attainment of 
an alternate  "legal guardian"     ------and confusing 
the enforcement of the   "dhimmi orphan law"


----------



## SherriMunnerlyn

"The custom of child marriage, which was generally prevalent among Jews in Yemen, was not known in Aden. As Gamliel, a Yeminite writer points out, sons, particularly daughters, were married off in their early teens, in many cases even at the age of nine or ten. The marriage prospect for girls who passed the age of 18, he notes, were slim. These old girls would under the best possible circumstances be married off to a widower, a divorcee, or as a second wife. *This custom of marriage at a tender age , which was similar to that of the Muslims, was essentially meant to ensure pre-marital chastity*...."



The Jews of the British Crown Colony of Aden: History, Culture, and Ethnic ... - Reuben Ahroni - Google Books


----------



## irosie91

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> MHunterB said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SherriMunnerlyn said:
> 
> 
> 
> "The Yemenite girl was often engaged to be married before she was twelve years old, and she was not able to choose her future husband. *When young children were orphaned, there was a danger that the Yemenis might force their conversion to Islam and remove them from the Jewish community. Thus, marriages of very young people were often arranged to prevent this tragedy.* However, it appears that young girls lived with their husbands only after they matured. Marriage to older men was not unknown, and neither was polygamy. The major circumstance leading to polygamy was the practice of*levirate marriage*(a religious obligation to marry the wife of a brother who died without issue), which was encouraged among Yemenite Jews even into the twentieth century. Following her wedding, the bride moved to her mother-in-laws house where she joined the pool of female workers, continuing the same arduous tasks that she had been trained for by her own mother."
> 
> Yemen and the Yishuv | Jewish Women's Archive
> 
> But it is interesting reading also how the Jews of Yemen followed the practice of levirate marriage, that is discussed in the Mishnah verses I cited earlier, in addition to having their daughters enter into child marriages.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The reason for this practice is right there in the quote:  to prevent the abduction and forced conversion of orphaned girls.
> 
> Of course there are hardly any Jews left alive in Yemen.
> Yemeni Jews secretly airlifted to Israel | Jewish Telegraphic Agency
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> That was not the only reason for child marriages, they were the accepted practice all across Yemen society.
Click to expand...




What were the other reasons for  "child marriage" for jewish girls and boys in yemeni society and what does any of it have to do with  40 year old man bedding an eight year 
old girl?        A bit of interesting insight------Yemenite jews have a remarkable regard 
for  ANYTHING  written by   MAIMONIDES-----He completely disallowed sex by force upon 
a woman ----in marriage-----any level of force or coercion was completely----"outlawed"---
He even disallowed  a man to WAKE his wife from sleep in order to have sexual 
contact       (see  "Guide for the Perplexed")        

Regarding  "child marriage"--------Jews are not the only people who contract marriages long before there is consumation thereof.        Hindu informants-----who grew up in 
remote and impoverished parts of India------have informed me that very early marriages 
in India-------meant the girl lived with her mother-in-law for several years and generally 
did not have anything to do with her young husband---------for quite awhile.       
Mahatma Gandhi and his wife were married when both were 12. -------According to a 
biography of Mahatma Gandhi that I read-------for years they were not only never alone 
together------they barely interacted with each other at all.      Interestingly----he regretted 
the fact that he was kept from her-------since he felt he could have rendered her literate---
if he had the opportunity


----------



## SherriMunnerlyn

irosie91 said:


> MHunterB said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SherriMunnerlyn said:
> 
> 
> 
> "The Yemenite girl was often engaged to be married before she was twelve years old, and she was not able to choose her future husband. *When young children were orphaned, there was a danger that the Yemenis might force their conversion to Islam and remove them from the Jewish community. Thus, marriages of very young people were often arranged to prevent this tragedy.* However, it appears that young girls lived with their husbands only after they matured. Marriage to older men was not unknown, and neither was polygamy. The major circumstance leading to polygamy was the practice of*levirate marriage*(a religious obligation to marry the wife of a brother who died without issue), which was encouraged among Yemenite Jews even into the twentieth century. Following her wedding, the bride moved to her mother-in-laws house where she joined the pool of female workers, continuing the same arduous tasks that she had been trained for by her own mother."
> 
> Yemen and the Yishuv | Jewish Women's Archive
> 
> But it is interesting reading also how the Jews of Yemen followed the practice of levirate marriage, that is discussed in the Mishnah verses I cited earlier, in addition to having their daughters enter into child marriages.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The reason for this practice is right there in the quote:  to prevent the abduction and forced conversion of orphaned girls.
> 
> Of course there are hardly any Jews left alive in Yemen.
> Yemeni Jews secretly airlifted to Israel | Jewish Telegraphic Agency
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> My mother-in-law was married at---(probably----birth records in yemen did not actually
> exist)   age 12------because her father died when she was 11.     She was married to
> save her from the DHIMMI ORPHAN LAW   ----as marge noted.    Death rates were
> high in Yemen------and the dhimmi orphan law was the gross horror that galvanized
> early marriages for BOTH  girls and boys-----      my father-in-law was probably about 16---
> which some people here also consider a  "child marriage"         Now for the good news----
> right after they married -------they began their escape from Yemen-----it took many
> years-------from early 1930s----to  early 1940s since it was illegal for jews to emigrate
> from that country-----hubby was born about one year before they finally made it out of
> that hell-hole---------he is one of ten.       The marriage turned out to be quite a romance.
> Because of the dhimmi orphan law ----all kinds of unusual marriages were made
> in Yemen.    Such arrangements rendered legal----MOVING ABOUT and the attainment of
> an alternate  "legal guardian"     ------and confusing
> the enforcement of the   "dhimmi orphan law"
Click to expand...


My conclusion is that child marriages in Yemen are primarily cultural. And it certainly seems to be a place where life is difficult for women, whether the women are Jewish or Muslim or a different religion. 

I was reading words of the songs they sang. 

"I do not want an old man 

Nor his money. 

I wish to have a young one 

To play with and to kiss! 

I do not want an old man 

A broken scythe handle is he, 

I wish to have a young one 

To squeeze all the bones in me. 

* * * 

Why is it, my cousin-husband, 

You are subjecting me to accepting another woman as your second wife? 

If the cause is beauty, 

I am as pretty as the moon and the stars. 

If the reason is my locks, 

Then I have two hundred braids. 

Is it for children? 

I have borne you two sons already. 

If it is my character, ..."

Yemen and the Yishuv | Jewish Women's Archive


----------



## MHunterB

"The custom of child marriage, which was generally prevalent among Jews in Yemen, was not known in Aden. As Gamliel, a Yeminite writer points out, sons, particularly daughters, were married off in their early teens, in many cases even at the age of nine or ten. The marriage prospect for girls who passed the age of 18, he notes, were slim. These old girls would under the best possible circumstances be married off to a widower, a divorcee, or as a second wife. This custom of marriage at a tender age , which was similar to that of the Muslims, was essentially meant to ensure pre-marital chastity...."



The quote as given above is incomplete:  it continues IMMEDIATELY as follows:

"*For the Yemenite Jews, however, one major motivation for child betrothal and marriage was to ensure the exemption of Jewish children from the decree of forced conversion, to which Jewish orphans who did not attain puberty before their father died were subjected in Yemen*"

So it is obvious in the context of the sentences immediately preceeding it in the same paragraph, that this 'ONE MAJOR REASON' is what the author cites as the reason for different 'customs' between Aden and Yemen.

It is the SAME paragraph:  by rules of grammar and composition, it is a single concept being discussed.  And to leave off the second half was a display of disgusting intellectual dishonesty.


----------



## irosie91

MHunterB said:


> SherriMunnerlyn said:
> 
> 
> 
> The Jews of the British Crown Colony of Aden: History, Culture, and Ethnic ... - Reuben Ahroni - Google Books
> 
> 
> This is interesting,  a book addressing child marriage among the Jews of Yemen. It is said the practice was common, children were commonly married at age 9 and 10. This supports the argument child marriage in Yemen is primarily cultural. Or does someone here really want to argue it was the influence of Judaism that is the primary explanation for this?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It is very clear from the text of this book you've quoted, that the 'influence' in Yemen was a Yemeni LAW which required the conversion from Judaism to Islam of ay orphan unmarried girl who had not yet reached 'majority' age.
> 
> I think it's very obvious that this situation is a result of that Yemeni 'law' - and not of any cultural or religious preference of the Jewish Yemenite community.
Click to expand...




Small correction   Marge-----both girls and boys-----orphaned by the loss of a  FATHER----
(mother does not count)       were liable to the dhimmi orphan law.     In the case of my 
mother-in-law---------she lost her father at age 11------her mother was still living----something  had to be done to protect her from legal confiscation -----and ---what amounts 
to slavery and forced conversion to islam.      The answer was both MARRIAGE and----flight.

the dhimmi orphan law-----is  SHARIAH    ----not restricted to yemen.     The Ottomans 
rejected the idea --------but Yemen refused to comply.       The dhimmi orphan law renders 
the enslavement and forced conversion of    SUDANESE kids as soon as any sudani manages  to kill the child's father.

now and then-----a victim of the dhimmi orphan law-------pops out of the woodwork ---------those cases had to be kept under wraps to protect the people  still there.     ---there 
are always-------people left over.       especially in a land full of nooks and crannies 
like Yemen


----------



## MHunterB

Yes, child marriages of Jews in Yemen were 'cultural' - but it was the 'culture' of the majority and its law of forced conversion for non-majority orphans.


----------



## SherriMunnerlyn

irosie91 said:


> SherriMunnerlyn said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MHunterB said:
> 
> 
> 
> The reason for this practice is right there in the quote:  to prevent the abduction and forced conversion of orphaned girls.
> 
> Of course there are hardly any Jews left alive in Yemen.
> Yemeni Jews secretly airlifted to Israel | Jewish Telegraphic Agency
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That was not the only reason for child marriages, they were the accepted practice all across Yemen society.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What were the other reasons for  "child marriage" for jewish girls and boys in yemeni society and what does any of it have to do with  40 year old man bedding an eight year
> old girl?        A bit of interesting insight------Yemenite jews have a remarkable regard
> for  ANYTHING  written by   MAIMONIDES-----He completely disallowed sex by force upon
> a woman ----in marriage-----any level of force or coercion was completely----"outlawed"---
> He even disallowed  a man to WAKE his wife from sleep in order to have sexual
> contact       (see  "Guide for the Perplexed")
> 
> Regarding  "child marriage"--------Jews are not the only people who contract marriages long before there is consumation thereof.        Hindu informants-----who grew up in
> remote and impoverished parts of India------have informed me that very early marriages
> in India-------meant the girl lived with her mother-in-law for several years and generally
> did not have anything to do with her young husband---------for quite awhile.
> Mahatma Gandhi and his wife were married when both were 12. -------According to a
> biography of Mahatma Gandhi that I read-------for years they were not only never alone
> together------they barely interacted with each other at all.      Interestingly----he regretted
> the fact that he was kept from her-------since he felt he could have rendered her literate---
> if he had the opportunity
Click to expand...


The story in the OP does not appear to be true, and the discussion has seemed to have turned to discussing what explains child marriages in Yemen, whether it is primarily culture or religion. We see child marriages common by both Muslims and Jews who lived there, we see child marriages by Hindus in India, in other countries  we see child marriages by Christians, too. I believe it is primarily culture that explains child marriages.


----------



## Roudy

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> 
> The rights of women in traditional Judaism are much greater than they were in the rest of Western civilization until the 20th century. Women had the right to buy, sell, and own property, and make their own contracts, rights which women in Western countries (including America) did not have until about 100 years ago. In fact, Proverbs 31:10-31, which is traditionally read at Jewish weddings, speaks repeatedly of business acumen as a trait to be prized in women (v. 11, 13, 16, and 18 especially).
> 
> Women have the right to be consulted with regard to their marriage. Marital sex is regarded as the woman's right, and not the man's. Men do not have the right to beat or mistreat their wives, a right that was recognized by law in many Western countries until a few hundred years ago. In cases of rape, a woman is generally presumed not to have consented to the intercourse, even if she enjoyed it, even if she consented after the sexual act began and declined a rescue! This is in sharp contrast to American society, where even today rape victims often have to overcome public suspicion that they "asked for it" or "wanted it." Traditional Judaism recognizes that forced sexual relations within the context of marriage are rape and are not permitted; in many states in America today, rape within marriage is still not a crime.
> 
> *Is 13 an Adult?*
> 
> Many people mock the idea that a 12 or 13 year old child is an adult, claiming that it is an outdated notion based on the needs of an agricultural society. This criticism comes from a misunderstanding of the significance of becoming a bar mitzvah.
> 
> Bar mitzvah is not about being a full adult in every sense of the word, ready to marry, go out on your own, earn a living and raise children. The Talmud makes this abundantly clear. In Pirkei Avot, it is said that while 13 is the proper age for fulfillment of the Commandments, *18 is the proper age for marriage* and 20 is the proper age for earning a livelihood. Elsewhere in the Talmud, the proper age for marriage is said to be 16-24.
> 
> Case closed.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That is not all the Talmud says, as has been addressed with the verses I set forth in the Mishnah I provided a cite for. They are obviously interpreted differently, today and in the past, explaining child marriages in the past and today. I previously provided a link to an article addressing recent cases of child marriage that have occurred among Jews in Israel.
Click to expand...

Then show me an instance where Jews are marrying off young girls at prepubescent age today, and they use religion as an authority and in their civil laws, as Muslims do.  I'm still waiting.

It just doesn't exist because all this is, are LIES and false propaganda to hide an inconvenient truth.


----------



## Roudy

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> MHunterB said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SherriMunnerlyn said:
> 
> 
> 
> "The Yemenite girl was often engaged to be married before she was twelve years old, and she was not able to choose her future husband. *When young children were orphaned, there was a danger that the Yemenis might force their conversion to Islam and remove them from the Jewish community. Thus, marriages of very young people were often arranged to prevent this tragedy.* However, it appears that young girls lived with their husbands only after they matured. Marriage to older men was not unknown, and neither was polygamy. The major circumstance leading to polygamy was the practice of*levirate marriage*(a religious obligation to marry the wife of a brother who died without issue), which was encouraged among Yemenite Jews even into the twentieth century. Following her wedding, the bride moved to her mother-in-laws house where she joined the pool of female workers, continuing the same arduous tasks that she had been trained for by her own mother."
> 
> Yemen and the Yishuv | Jewish Women's Archive
> 
> But it is interesting reading also how the Jews of Yemen followed the practice of levirate marriage, that is discussed in the Mishnah verses I cited earlier, in addition to having their daughters enter into child marriages.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The reason for this practice is right there in the quote:  to prevent the abduction and forced conversion of orphaned girls.
> 
> Of course there are hardly any Jews left alive in Yemen.
> Yemeni Jews secretly airlifted to Israel | Jewish Telegraphic Agency
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> That was not the only reason for child marriages, they were the accepted practice all across Yemen society.
Click to expand...

Yemeni society is based on Islamic shariah law.  So the Jews (and all other non Muslims) had to live like the Muslims do.  I don't understand the point being made here, other than it makes Muslims look even worse in that not only did THEY believe in child marriages, they even forced the non Muslims to do the same.  Wow, what a revelation, Muslims forcing their religion and way of life upon others.


----------



## irosie91

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> 
> The rights of women in traditional Judaism are much greater than they were in the rest of Western civilization until the 20th century. Women had the right to buy, sell, and own property, and make their own contracts, rights which women in Western countries (including America) did not have until about 100 years ago. In fact, Proverbs 31:10-31, which is traditionally read at Jewish weddings, speaks repeatedly of business acumen as a trait to be prized in women (v. 11, 13, 16, and 18 especially).
> 
> Women have the right to be consulted with regard to their marriage. Marital sex is regarded as the woman's right, and not the man's. Men do not have the right to beat or mistreat their wives, a right that was recognized by law in many Western countries until a few hundred years ago. In cases of rape, a woman is generally presumed not to have consented to the intercourse, even if she enjoyed it, even if she consented after the sexual act began and declined a rescue! This is in sharp contrast to American society, where even today rape victims often have to overcome public suspicion that they "asked for it" or "wanted it." Traditional Judaism recognizes that forced sexual relations within the context of marriage are rape and are not permitted; in many states in America today, rape within marriage is still not a crime.
> 
> *Is 13 an Adult?*
> 
> Many people mock the idea that a 12 or 13 year old child is an adult, claiming that it is an outdated notion based on the needs of an agricultural society. This criticism comes from a misunderstanding of the significance of becoming a bar mitzvah.
> 
> Bar mitzvah is not about being a full adult in every sense of the word, ready to marry, go out on your own, earn a living and raise children. The Talmud makes this abundantly clear. In Pirkei Avot, it is said that while 13 is the proper age for fulfillment of the Commandments, *18 is the proper age for marriage* and 20 is the proper age for earning a livelihood. Elsewhere in the Talmud, the proper age for marriage is said to be 16-24.
> 
> Case closed.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That is not all the Talmud says, as has been addressed with the verses I set forth in the Mishnah I provided a cite for. They are obviously interpreted differently, today and in the past, explaining child marriages in the past and today. I previously provided a link to an article addressing recent cases of child marriage that have occurred among Jews in Israel.
Click to expand...



I got bad news for you sherri-----the  Mishnah is not the talmud

what is it that you imagine   "the talmud says"  ???        Your comment is so  vague that 
it is meaningless------what  is it   you imagine is  "obviously interpreted differently today 
and in the past"  ?        Your abilty to figure out what is expressed in the talmud is even 
worse than is your ability to understand that which is expressed in the New Testament. 

I have good news for you------you need not guess--------the talmud has been 
the subject of   RECORDED ANALYSIS for more  than 2500 years--------continuously. 
Thus it is possible for you to actually  read about that which you imagine  "changed"

I cannot find your link to  "child marriages"   in Israel-------what are you calling a 
"child marriage"???  --------is the marriage between  two sixteen  year olds 
a "child marriage"?       its legal in Maryland.     You are off topic----the topic of 
this thread is ---------"a 40 year old bedded an eight year old and killed her doing it"
Just how this case is considered in Yemen----which is a shariah adherent society-----
will be demonstrated  by  the actually actions taken to the legal system over there.


----------



## MHunterB

OF COURSE it's 'cultural' - but it's the culture of the shari'a -ruled state.  

Ignoring the obvious effects of a law which steals young children away from widowed mothers is an inexcusable lapse in scholarship.  

No respectable student would attempt to deny that Mormon culture was impacted by the admission of Utah as a State:  the situation of the Jewish community in Yemen is similar.  

Although the LDS has largely steered away from the blatant racism - equating light skin color with 'enlightenment' and obedience to GOD - found in the Book of Mormon,  that has all been fairly recent 'revelation', since the 1970's.  They used to have rules that limited the religious offices which a 'nonwhite' Mormon could hold......  

Here is another condition which is extremely rare among 'white' women - but which is endemic among women of color in many nations in Africa and some in Asia:  The Fistula Foundation : Help give a woman a new life

It is ENTIRELY preventable - and ENTIRELY 'cultural'.


----------



## SherriMunnerlyn

Child marriage is cultural and it is the culture present where it is practiced that leads to the practice. 

There is no law forcing child marriage on people.

That is why in countries where it is common, you see the practice among people of different religions in those countries. Like Yemen, we have seen Muslims and Jews arrange child marriages for their children.


----------



## irosie91

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> irosie91 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SherriMunnerlyn said:
> 
> 
> 
> That was not the only reason for child marriages, they were the accepted practice all across Yemen society.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What were the other reasons for  "child marriage" for jewish girls and boys in yemeni society and what does any of it have to do with  40 year old man bedding an eight year
> old girl?        A bit of interesting insight------Yemenite jews have a remarkable regard
> for  ANYTHING  written by   MAIMONIDES-----He completely disallowed sex by force upon
> a woman ----in marriage-----any level of force or coercion was completely----"outlawed"---
> He even disallowed  a man to WAKE his wife from sleep in order to have sexual
> contact       (see  "Guide for the Perplexed")
> 
> Regarding  "child marriage"--------Jews are not the only people who contract marriages long before there is consumation thereof.        Hindu informants-----who grew up in
> remote and impoverished parts of India------have informed me that very early marriages
> in India-------meant the girl lived with her mother-in-law for several years and generally
> did not have anything to do with her young husband---------for quite awhile.
> Mahatma Gandhi and his wife were married when both were 12. -------According to a
> biography of Mahatma Gandhi that I read-------for years they were not only never alone
> together------they barely interacted with each other at all.      Interestingly----he regretted
> the fact that he was kept from her-------since he felt he could have rendered her literate---
> if he had the opportunity
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The story in the OP does not appear to be true, and the discussion has seemed to have turned to discussing what explains child marriages in Yemen, whether it is primarily culture or religion. We see child marriages common by both Muslims and Jews who lived there, we see child marriages by Hindus in India, in other countries  we see child marriages by Christians, too. I believe it is primarily culture that explains child marriages.
Click to expand...



wrong again   Sherri------google around a bit more-----especially consult  SNOPES 
---the story does indeed appear to be true-..       Since I have---thru marriage----relatives 
who did   LIVE IN YEMEN-------I can assure you that it is consistent with that which 
goes on over there ----------child marriages amongst the jews of yemen-----ie marriages 
involving VERY YOUNG children---------like eight years old------were done to get around 
the dhimmi orphan law and involved both  girls and boys since both were liable to that 
barbaric law which is part and parcel of the shariah code. 

Typical age of marriage for boys in traditional  judaism -----the thing  the jews of 
yemen do-----is   eighteen for boys and   post menarche for girls       Menarche for 
girls in Yemen was probably averaging about age  14.     If you do not know why 
I cite    the age  14       do not hesitate to ask-------it is a matter of human 
physiology.    Yemeni girls in Israel have an earlier menarche----and tend to be 
a LOT taller than -----their mothers   (in fact they tend to be taller than 
their fathers)

Marriages in classical   shariah societies like Yemen and saudi arabia   typically include 
lots of  marriages of grown men to little girls ---------some of them are not really 
marriages     -----those confiscated kids  under  the dhimmi orphan laws do not 
actually constitute real marriages ------It is more like slavery.    Classical shariah law 
allows unlimited sex with  "OWNED WOMEN"        Saudis who buy little girls in  
Pakistan and India and Indonesia------do not necessarily consider the little girls 
one of their four allowed wives


----------



## SherriMunnerlyn

irosie91 said:


> SherriMunnerlyn said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> irosie91 said:
> 
> 
> 
> What were the other reasons for  "child marriage" for jewish girls and boys in yemeni society and what does any of it have to do with  40 year old man bedding an eight year
> old girl?        A bit of interesting insight------Yemenite jews have a remarkable regard
> for  ANYTHING  written by   MAIMONIDES-----He completely disallowed sex by force upon
> a woman ----in marriage-----any level of force or coercion was completely----"outlawed"---
> He even disallowed  a man to WAKE his wife from sleep in order to have sexual
> contact       (see  "Guide for the Perplexed")
> 
> Regarding  "child marriage"--------Jews are not the only people who contract marriages long before there is consumation thereof.        Hindu informants-----who grew up in
> remote and impoverished parts of India------have informed me that very early marriages
> in India-------meant the girl lived with her mother-in-law for several years and generally
> did not have anything to do with her young husband---------for quite awhile.
> Mahatma Gandhi and his wife were married when both were 12. -------According to a
> biography of Mahatma Gandhi that I read-------for years they were not only never alone
> together------they barely interacted with each other at all.      Interestingly----he regretted
> the fact that he was kept from her-------since he felt he could have rendered her literate---
> if he had the opportunity
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The story in the OP does not appear to be true, and the discussion has seemed to have turned to discussing what explains child marriages in Yemen, whether it is primarily culture or religion. We see child marriages common by both Muslims and Jews who lived there, we see child marriages by Hindus in India, in other countries  we see child marriages by Christians, too. I believe it is primarily culture that explains child marriages.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> wrong again   Sherri------google around a bit more-----especially consult  SNOPES
> ---the story does indeed appear to be true-..       Since I have---thru marriage----relatives
> who did   LIVE IN YEMEN-------I can assure you that it is consistent with that which
> goes on over there ----------child marriages amongst the jews of yemen-----ie marriages
> involving VERY YOUNG children---------like eight years old------were done to get around
> the dhimmi orphan law and involved both  girls and boys since both were liable to that
> barbaric law which is part and parcel of the shariah code.
> 
> Typical age of marriage for boys in traditional  judaism -----the thing  the jews of
> yemen do-----is   eighteen for boys and   post menarche for girls       Menarche for
> girls in Yemen was probably averaging about age  14.     If you do not know why
> I cite    the age  14       do not hesitate to ask-------it is a matter of human
> physiology.    Yemeni girls in Israel have an earlier menarche----and tend to be
> a LOT taller than -----their mothers   (in fact they tend to be taller than
> their fathers)
> 
> Marriages in classical   shariah societies like Yemen and saudi arabia   typically include
> lots of  marriages of grown men tp little girls ---------some of them are not really
> marriages     -----those confiscated kids  under  the dhimmi orphan laws do not
> actually constitute real marriages ------It is more like slavery.    Classical shariah law
> allows unlimited sex with  "OWNED WOMEN"        Saudis who buy little girls in
> Pakistan and India and Indonesia------do not necessarily consider the little girls
> one of their four allowed wives
Click to expand...


Let us see your proof the story in the OP is true, the child it was about already was interviewed and said it was a lie. 

I am not denying child marriage happens in Yemen, I simply point out it is explained by the culture of Yemen.

And for anyone who tries to use these horrible things happening to children to demonize another's religion, you simply disclose yourself as a member of a hate group.


----------



## SherriMunnerlyn

irosie91 said:


> SherriMunnerlyn said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> 
> The rights of women in traditional Judaism are much greater than they were in the rest of Western civilization until the 20th century. Women had the right to buy, sell, and own property, and make their own contracts, rights which women in Western countries (including America) did not have until about 100 years ago. In fact, Proverbs 31:10-31, which is traditionally read at Jewish weddings, speaks repeatedly of business acumen as a trait to be prized in women (v. 11, 13, 16, and 18 especially).
> 
> Women have the right to be consulted with regard to their marriage. Marital sex is regarded as the woman's right, and not the man's. Men do not have the right to beat or mistreat their wives, a right that was recognized by law in many Western countries until a few hundred years ago. In cases of rape, a woman is generally presumed not to have consented to the intercourse, even if she enjoyed it, even if she consented after the sexual act began and declined a rescue! This is in sharp contrast to American society, where even today rape victims often have to overcome public suspicion that they "asked for it" or "wanted it." Traditional Judaism recognizes that forced sexual relations within the context of marriage are rape and are not permitted; in many states in America today, rape within marriage is still not a crime.
> 
> *Is 13 an Adult?*
> 
> Many people mock the idea that a 12 or 13 year old child is an adult, claiming that it is an outdated notion based on the needs of an agricultural society. This criticism comes from a misunderstanding of the significance of becoming a bar mitzvah.
> 
> Bar mitzvah is not about being a full adult in every sense of the word, ready to marry, go out on your own, earn a living and raise children. The Talmud makes this abundantly clear. In Pirkei Avot, it is said that while 13 is the proper age for fulfillment of the Commandments, *18 is the proper age for marriage* and 20 is the proper age for earning a livelihood. Elsewhere in the Talmud, the proper age for marriage is said to be 16-24.
> 
> Case closed.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That is not all the Talmud says, as has been addressed with the verses I set forth in the Mishnah I provided a cite for. They are obviously interpreted differently, today and in the past, explaining child marriages in the past and today. I previously provided a link to an article addressing recent cases of child marriage that have occurred among Jews in Israel.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> I got bad news for you sherri-----the  Mishnah is not the talmud
> 
> what is it that you imagine   "the talmud says"  ???        Your comment is so  vague that
> it is meaningless------what  is it   you imagine is  "obviously interpreted differently today
> and in the past"  ?        Your abilty to figure out what is expressed in the talmud is even
> worse than is your ability to understand that which is expressed in the New Testament.
> 
> I have good news for you------you need not guess--------the talmud has been
> the subject of   RECORDED ANALYSIS for more  than 2500 years--------continuously.
> Thus it is possible for you to actually  read about that which you imagine  "changed"
> 
> I cannot find your link to  "child marriages"   in Israel-------what are you calling a
> "child marriage"???  --------is the marriage between  two sixteen  year olds
> a "child marriage"?       its legal in Maryland.     You are off topic----the topic of
> this thread is ---------"a 40 year old bedded an eight year old and killed her doing it"
> Just how this case is considered in Yemen----which is a shariah adherent society-----
> will be demonstrated  by  the actually actions taken to the legal system over there.
Click to expand...


The*Talmud*(/&#712;t&#593;&#720;lm&#650;d,*-m&#601;d,*&#712;tæl-/;*Hebrew:*&#1514;&#1463;&#1468;&#1500;&#1456;&#1502;&#1493;&#1468;&#1491;*talm&#363;d"instruction, learning", from a*root*lmd*"teach, study") is a central text of Rabbinic*Judaism. It is also traditionally referred to as*Shas*(&#1513;&#1524;&#1505, aHebrew*abbreviation of*shisha sedarim, the "six orders". The Talmud has two components. The first part is the*Mishnah*(Hebrew: &#1502;&#1513;&#1504;&#1492;, c. 200 CE), the written compendium of Judaism's*Oral Torah*(Torah meaning "Instruction", "Teaching" in Hebrew). The second part is theGemara*(c. 500 CE), an elucidation of the Mishnah and related*Tannaiticwritings that often ventures onto other subjects and expounds broadly on the*Jewish Bible.    


Talmud - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

And one more time, the story in the OP did not happen. You want to claim it happened, you prove it.


----------



## Roudy

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> Child marriage is cultural and it is the culture present where it is practiced that leads to the practice.
> 
> There is no law forcing child marriage on people.
> 
> That is why in countries where it is common, you see the practice among people of different religions in those countries. Like Yemen, we have seen Muslims and Jews arrange child marriages for their children.


If it's cultural why was it not practiced in Iran during the Shah's time, but when Islamists took over, it became totally legal and acceptable?  

An inconvenient truth.


----------



## MHunterB

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> Child marriage is cultural and it is the culture present where it is practiced that leads to the practice.
> 
> *There is no law forcing child marriage on people.*
> 
> That is why in countries where it is common, you see the practice among people of different religions in those countries. Like Yemen, we have seen Muslims and Jews arrange child marriages for their children.



Perhaps not 'child marriages' per se - but it is obvious that the decree of forced conversion to Islam in Yemen was the main factor in perpetuating 'child marriage' there within the Jewish community.

It was the sources you cited which explained that quite clearly - yet for some 'reason' you refuse to acknowledge this fact, that such a law existed, or that it had the effect which the authors YOU chose to quote upon the Jewish community.


----------



## irosie91

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> irosie91 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SherriMunnerlyn said:
> 
> 
> 
> The story in the OP does not appear to be true, and the discussion has seemed to have turned to discussing what explains child marriages in Yemen, whether it is primarily culture or religion. We see child marriages common by both Muslims and Jews who lived there, we see child marriages by Hindus in India, in other countries  we see child marriages by Christians, too. I believe it is primarily culture that explains child marriages.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> wrong again   Sherri------google around a bit more-----especially consult  SNOPES
> ---the story does indeed appear to be true-..       Since I have---thru marriage----relatives
> who did   LIVE IN YEMEN-------I can assure you that it is consistent with that which
> goes on over there ----------child marriages amongst the jews of yemen-----ie marriages
> involving VERY YOUNG children---------like eight years old------were done to get around
> the dhimmi orphan law and involved both  girls and boys since both were liable to that
> barbaric law which is part and parcel of the shariah code.
> 
> Typical age of marriage for boys in traditional  judaism -----the thing  the jews of
> yemen do-----is   eighteen for boys and   post menarche for girls       Menarche for
> girls in Yemen was probably averaging about age  14.     If you do not know why
> I cite    the age  14       do not hesitate to ask-------it is a matter of human
> physiology.    Yemeni girls in Israel have an earlier menarche----and tend to be
> a LOT taller than -----their mothers   (in fact they tend to be taller than
> their fathers)
> 
> Marriages in classical   shariah societies like Yemen and saudi arabia   typically include
> lots of  marriages of grown men tp little girls ---------some of them are not really
> marriages     -----those confiscated kids  under  the dhimmi orphan laws do not
> actually constitute real marriages ------It is more like slavery.    Classical shariah law
> allows unlimited sex with  "OWNED WOMEN"        Saudis who buy little girls in
> Pakistan and India and Indonesia------do not necessarily consider the little girls
> one of their four allowed wives
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Let us see your proof the story in the OP is true, the child it was about already was interviewed and said it was a lie.
> 
> I am not denying child marriage happens in Yemen, I simply point out it is explained by the culture of Yemen.
> 
> And for anyone who tries to use these horrible things happening to children to demonize another's religion, you simply disclose yourself as a member of a hate group.
Click to expand...




    wrong again    sherri-----where do you see  DEMONIZING?------You are assuming that 
I consider  "child marriages"   to be some sort of  "ACCUSATION"   and that I agree with 
the utterly idiotic  notion that   any marriage of a person under age  18 is a 
CHILD MARRIAGE   and somehow horrific.      I do not------after all -----JULIET was 14 and 
ROMEO  was  16         My great grandmother married the LOVE OF HER LIFE----
at age 14-----he was 18         
Try reading the snopes analysis-----of the marriage of 
the 40 year old with the eight year old-------it DRIPs of reality as it is in Yemeni muslim 
culture.      For member of  HATE GROUP-----examine yourself       You reveal yourself as 
a major  member of the baby killing cult of  Isa ------daily.     The topic of this thread is 
not actually  "child marriage"--------defined as marriage of kids under age 18-------the topic 
is      a   40 year old who forced sex upon an eight year old.     They interviewed a dead girl?

BTW------she is not the first little girl to die after forced sex------over there ---OUT EAST.


----------



## S.J.

Coyote said:


> SherriMunnerlyn said:
> 
> 
> 
> Another story of child-brides emerged several years ago in Israels north. Rabbi Shlomo Eliezer Schick of the Bratslav Hassidic movement in Yavneel in the Galilee*was arrested*for officiating the marriages of some 20 underage couples, mostly ages 12 to 16, according to Haaretz. In Israel, marriage under the age of 17 is illegal. Schick actually has a bit of a following, and even his own nickname The Mohorosh, although if he has continued to marry off children, he has been doing it under the radar.
> 
> Mishnah - Judaism's Oral Torah - Rabbinic Judaism
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That reminds me of some of the pseudo Christian cults in the US, like Warren Jeffs, who forced kids into marriage.  It's easy to distort religion into a self-serving cult.
Click to expand...

Here's the difference.  Warren Jeffs was put in prison for doing that in the United States, in Islamic countries it is considered normal and they are protected and defended (like on this site), and in some cases they are elevated to "prophet" status.


----------



## SherriMunnerlyn

MHunterB said:


> SherriMunnerlyn said:
> 
> 
> 
> Child marriage is cultural and it is the culture present where it is practiced that leads to the practice.
> 
> *There is no law forcing child marriage on people.*
> 
> That is why in countries where it is common, you see the practice among people of different religions in those countries. Like Yemen, we have seen Muslims and Jews arrange child marriages for their children.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Perhaps not 'child marriages' per se - but it is obvious that the decree of forced conversion to Islam in Yemen was the main factor in perpetuating 'child marriage' there within the Jewish community.
> 
> It was the sources you cited which explained that quite clearly - yet for some 'reason' you refuse to acknowledge this fact, that such a law existed, or that it had the effect which the authors YOU chose to quote upon the Jewish community.
Click to expand...


What  I read an author state is the primary reason for the practice of child marriage among both Jews and Muslims was it was CUSTOM and was to ensure chastity. Yemen has a very conservative society, that is true of the Muslims, that was true of their Jewish community, as well. 

You need to read my source again, what they said, you seem to have a problem reading and comprehending English.

http://books.google.com/books?id=d5...zuj&dq=jewish+child+marriage&output=html_text

And what I find Unbelievable  is seeing Zionist Jews  use this excuse, they made us  do it, to justify marrying their very own children off at as young an age as 8 years old. 

But why should I be surprised, after hearing Zionist Golda Meir kill Palestinian children, admit it, and claim Palestinians made her do it.

Truth is, blaming others for everything a Zionist Jew does, every bad act and every immoral act and every crime against humanity and crimes against one's very own children even, are blamed on the Gentiles!

A Zionist cannot accept blame for any act they do, they are always the eternal victim!

And another point, I do not believe there is a " decree of forced conversion to Islam in Yemen", let me see you provide a cite for that law you claim is a decree in Yemen!


----------



## MHunterB

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> MHunterB said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SherriMunnerlyn said:
> 
> 
> 
> Child marriage is cultural and it is the culture present where it is practiced that leads to the practice.
> 
> *There is no law forcing child marriage on people.*
> 
> That is why in countries where it is common, you see the practice among people of different religions in those countries. Like Yemen, we have seen Muslims and Jews arrange child marriages for their children.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Perhaps not 'child marriages' per se - but it is obvious that the decree of forced conversion to Islam in Yemen was the main factor in perpetuating 'child marriage' there within the Jewish community.
> 
> It was the sources you cited which explained that quite clearly - yet for some 'reason' you refuse to acknowledge this fact, that such a law existed, or that it had the effect which the authors YOU chose to quote upon the Jewish community.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> What  I read an author state is the primary reason for the practice of child marriage among both Jews and Muslims was to ensure chastity. Yemen has a very conservative society, that is true of the Muslims, that was true of their Jewish community, as well.
> 
> You need to read my source again, what they said, you seem to have a problem reading and comprehending English.
Click to expand...


Anyone can see, from going to your post earlier in this thread, that the one author stated as you quoted:

"The Yemenite girl was often engaged to be married before she was twelve years old, and she was not able to choose her future husband. *When young children were orphaned, there was a danger that the Yemenis might force their conversion to Islam and remove them from the Jewish community.* Thus, marriages of very young people were often arranged to prevent this tragedy. However, it appears that young girls lived with their husbands only after they matured. Marriage to older men was not unknown, and neither was polygamy. The major circumstance leading to polygamy was the practice of*levirate marriage*(a religious obligation to marry the wife of a brother who died without issue), which was encouraged among Yemenite Jews even into the twentieth century. Following her wedding, the bride moved to her mother-in-laws house where she joined the pool of female workers, continuing the same arduous tasks that she had been trained for by her own mother."

Yemen and the Yishuv | Jewish Women's Archive


A few posts later you 'quoted' another author.

"The custom of child marriage, which was generally prevalent among Jews in Yemen, was not known in Aden. As Gamliel, a Yeminite writer points out, sons, particularly daughters, were married off in their early teens, in many cases even at the age of nine or ten. The marriage prospect for girls who passed the age of 18, he notes, were slim. These old girls would under the best possible circumstances be married off to a widower, a divorcee, or as a second wife. This custom of marriage at a tender age , which was similar to that of the Muslims, was essentially meant to ensure pre-marital chastity...."

The Jews of the British Crown Colony of Aden: History, Culture, and Ethnic ... - Reuben Ahroni - Google Books

The quote is found on p.126, in a lengthy footnote , which reads in full:

The custom of child marriage, which was generally prevalent among Jews in Yemen, was not known in Aden. As Gamliel, a Yeminite writer points out, sons, particularly daughters, were married off in their early teens, in many cases even at the age of nine or ten. The marriage prospect for girls who passed the age of 18, he notes, were slim. These old girls would under the best possible circumstances be married off to a widower, a divorcee, or as a second wife. This custom of marriage at a tender age , which was similar to that of the Muslims, was essentially meant to ensure pre-marital chastity.  *For the Yemenite Jews, however, one major motivation for child betrothal and marriage was to ensure the exemption of Jewish children from the decree of forced conversion, to which Jewish orphans who did not attain puberty before their father died were subjected in Yemen* "

Evidently it is you who lacks reading comprehension.  As I've already explained, when it's all one paragraph, it's all one concept. 

What kind of 'scholarship' is it to cite an author and then edit out what he states is a* MAJOR MOTIVATION*  for the pattern he's discussing?

Once again, you have lied and the proof is here for all to read.


----------



## irosie91

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> MHunterB said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SherriMunnerlyn said:
> 
> 
> 
> Child marriage is cultural and it is the culture present where it is practiced that leads to the practice.
> 
> *There is no law forcing child marriage on people.*
> 
> That is why in countries where it is common, you see the practice among people of different religions in those countries. Like Yemen, we have seen Muslims and Jews arrange child marriages for their children.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Perhaps not 'child marriages' per se - but it is obvious that the decree of forced conversion to Islam in Yemen was the main factor in perpetuating 'child marriage' there within the Jewish community.
> 
> It was the sources you cited which explained that quite clearly - yet for some 'reason' you refuse to acknowledge this fact, that such a law existed, or that it had the effect which the authors YOU chose to quote upon the Jewish community.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> What  I read an author state is the primary reason for the practice of child marriage among both Jews and Muslims was to ensure chastity. Yemen has a very conservative society, that is true of the Muslims, that was true of their Jewish community, as well.
> 
> You need to read my source again, what they said, you seem to have a problem reading and comprehending English.
Click to expand...




you have an author who decided the yemeni jews get their sons and daughters married 
early to ensure   "chastity" ------    and muslims get their sons and daughters married early 
to ensure  chastity?            I know english and I missed it------can you find the pertinent 
passages?      If that is what your author said---  he is wrong.      Muslims place a very 
high value on FEMALE CHASTITY which they define as being a girl  "UNTOUCHED"----
once touched  ------by any means from incest to love affair to rape------the girl is ruined---
this concept does not actually exist amongst jews------including yemeni jews.    In fact the 
jewish yemeni answer to rape------of a girl by an arab ------is a quickie marriage just in case she turns out pregnant.    -------islamic law awards the product of rape by a muslim-----to the rapist.   Jewish law awards the product of rape ----to the mother..      I learned lots about this topic from muslim informants------during the  
1971  war between  east and west pakistan  and lots from jews from Yemen


BTW-----there is a very huge difference between a  40 year old forcing sex on an 
eight year old-------and the marriage of two adolescents -----there is a huge difference 
between  a   12 year old girl and an eight year old girl.        Marriages between 14 year 
old kids are legal in  Maryland


----------



## SherriMunnerlyn

S.J. said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SherriMunnerlyn said:
> 
> 
> 
> Another story of child-brides emerged several years ago in Israels north. Rabbi Shlomo Eliezer Schick of the Bratslav Hassidic movement in Yavneel in the Galilee*was arrested*for officiating the marriages of some 20 underage couples, mostly ages 12 to 16, according to Haaretz. In Israel, marriage under the age of 17 is illegal. Schick actually has a bit of a following, and even his own nickname The Mohorosh, although if he has continued to marry off children, he has been doing it under the radar.
> 
> Mishnah - Judaism's Oral Torah - Rabbinic Judaism
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That reminds me of some of the pseudo Christian cults in the US, like Warren Jeffs, who forced kids into marriage.  It's easy to distort religion into a self-serving cult.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Here's the difference.  Warren Jeffs was put in prison for doing that in the United States, in Islamic countries it is considered normal and they are protected and defended (like on this site), and in some cases they are elevated to "prophet" status.
Click to expand...


Eliezer Schick was a Jewish Rabbi who was carrying out unlawful underage marriages of Israeli Jews inside Israel. He probably was not punished by the Zionist Regime, Jewish rabbis do get preferential treatment by the Zionist State. It does appear he had some type of Prophet status in Israel, he even had his own nickname there. 

What you are wrong about is calling Israel an Islamic State, they call themselves the Jewish State.


----------



## Roudy

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> Child marriage is cultural and it is the culture present where it is practiced that leads to the practice.
> 
> There is no law forcing child marriage on people.
> 
> That is why in countries where it is common, you see the practice among people of different religions in those countries. Like Yemen, we have seen Muslims and Jews arrange child marriages for their children.


Yada yada yada. Yemen is a country run by strictly. Slavic Hsriah law  which includes but not limited tom being able to marry a nine year old. So yes, these Islamic laws are the law of the land and forced upon all non Muslims. 

Did you ask your Muslim Iranian friends whether the reason Iranian men could marry 9 years olds was due to Islam or "poverty"?  Still waiting.....


----------



## Roudy

MHunterB said:


> SherriMunnerlyn said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MHunterB said:
> 
> 
> 
> Perhaps not 'child marriages' per se - but it is obvious that the decree of forced conversion to Islam in Yemen was the main factor in perpetuating 'child marriage' there within the Jewish community.
> 
> It was the sources you cited which explained that quite clearly - yet for some 'reason' you refuse to acknowledge this fact, that such a law existed, or that it had the effect which the authors YOU chose to quote upon the Jewish community.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What  I read an author state is the primary reason for the practice of child marriage among both Jews and Muslims was to ensure chastity. Yemen has a very conservative society, that is true of the Muslims, that was true of their Jewish community, as well.
> 
> You need to read my source again, what they said, you seem to have a problem reading and comprehending English.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Anyone can see, from going to your post earlier in this thread, that the one author stated as you quoted:
> 
> "The Yemenite girl was often engaged to be married before she was twelve years old, and she was not able to choose her future husband. *When young children were orphaned, there was a danger that the Yemenis might force their conversion to Islam and remove them from the Jewish community.* Thus, marriages of very young people were often arranged to prevent this tragedy. However, it appears that young girls lived with their husbands only after they matured. Marriage to older men was not unknown, and neither was polygamy. The major circumstance leading to polygamy was the practice of*levirate marriage*(a religious obligation to marry the wife of a brother who died without issue), which was encouraged among Yemenite Jews even into the twentieth century. Following her wedding, the bride moved to her mother-in-laws house where she joined the pool of female workers, continuing the same arduous tasks that she had been trained for by her own mother."
> 
> Yemen and the Yishuv | Jewish Women's Archive
> 
> 
> A few posts later you 'quoted' another author.
> 
> "The custom of child marriage, which was generally prevalent among Jews in Yemen, was not known in Aden. As Gamliel, a Yeminite writer points out, sons, particularly daughters, were married off in their early teens, in many cases even at the age of nine or ten. The marriage prospect for girls who passed the age of 18, he notes, were slim. These old girls would under the best possible circumstances be married off to a widower, a divorcee, or as a second wife. This custom of marriage at a tender age , which was similar to that of the Muslims, was essentially meant to ensure pre-marital chastity...."
> 
> The Jews of the British Crown Colony of Aden: History, Culture, and Ethnic ... - Reuben Ahroni - Google Books
> 
> The quote is found on p.126, in a lengthy footnote , which reads in full:
> 
> The custom of child marriage, which was generally prevalent among Jews in Yemen, was not known in Aden. As Gamliel, a Yeminite writer points out, sons, particularly daughters, were married off in their early teens, in many cases even at the age of nine or ten. The marriage prospect for girls who passed the age of 18, he notes, were slim. These old girls would under the best possible circumstances be married off to a widower, a divorcee, or as a second wife. This custom of marriage at a tender age , which was similar to that of the Muslims, was essentially meant to ensure pre-marital chastity.  *For the Yemenite Jews, however, one major motivation for child betrothal and marriage was to ensure the exemption of Jewish children from the decree of forced conversion, to which Jewish orphans who did not attain puberty before their father died were subjected in Yemen* "
> 
> Evidently it is you who lacks reading comprehension.  As I've already explained, when it's all one paragraph, it's all one concept.
> 
> What kind of 'scholarship' is it to cite an author and then edit out what he states is a* MAJOR MOTIVATION*  for the pattern he's discussing?
> 
> Once again, you have lied and the proof is here for all to read.
Click to expand...

So there, it's because they feared FORCED CONVERSION. 

Notice how the apologists always lie and distort, and leave out critical information that totally undermines all their claims?


----------



## SherriMunnerlyn

MHunterB said:


> SherriMunnerlyn said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MHunterB said:
> 
> 
> 
> Perhaps not 'child marriages' per se - but it is obvious that the decree of forced conversion to Islam in Yemen was the main factor in perpetuating 'child marriage' there within the Jewish community.
> 
> It was the sources you cited which explained that quite clearly - yet for some 'reason' you refuse to acknowledge this fact, that such a law existed, or that it had the effect which the authors YOU chose to quote upon the Jewish community.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What  I read an author state is the primary reason for the practice of child marriage among both Jews and Muslims was to ensure chastity. Yemen has a very conservative society, that is true of the Muslims, that was true of their Jewish community, as well.
> 
> You need to read my source again, what they said, you seem to have a problem reading and comprehending English.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Anyone can see, from going to your post earlier in this thread, that the one author stated as you quoted:
> 
> "The Yemenite girl was often engaged to be married before she was twelve years old, and she was not able to choose her future husband. *When young children were orphaned, there was a danger that the Yemenis might force their conversion to Islam and remove them from the Jewish community.* Thus, marriages of very young people were often arranged to prevent this tragedy. However, it appears that young girls lived with their husbands only after they matured. Marriage to older men was not unknown, and neither was polygamy. The major circumstance leading to polygamy was the practice of*levirate marriage*(a religious obligation to marry the wife of a brother who died without issue), which was encouraged among Yemenite Jews even into the twentieth century. Following her wedding, the bride moved to her mother-in-law&#8217;s house where she joined the pool of female workers, continuing the same arduous tasks that she had been trained for by her own mother."
> 
> Yemen and the Yishuv | Jewish Women's Archive
> 
> 
> A few posts later you 'quoted' another author.
> 
> "The custom of child marriage, which was generally prevalent among Jews in Yemen, was not known in Aden. As Gamliel, a Yeminite writer points out, sons, particularly daughters, were married off in their early teens, in many cases even at the age of nine or ten. The marriage prospect for girls who passed the age of 18, he notes, were slim. These old girls would under the best possible circumstances be married off to a widower, a divorcee, or as a second wife. This custom of marriage at a tender age , which was similar to that of the Muslims, was essentially meant to ensure pre-marital chastity...."
> 
> The Jews of the British Crown Colony of Aden: History, Culture, and Ethnic ... - Reuben Ahroni - Google Books
> 
> The quote is found on p.126, in a lengthy footnote , which reads in full:
> 
> The custom of child marriage, which was generally prevalent among Jews in Yemen, was not known in Aden. As Gamliel, a Yeminite writer points out, sons, particularly daughters, were married off in their early teens, in many cases even at the age of nine or ten. The marriage prospect for girls who passed the age of 18, he notes, were slim. These old girls would under the best possible circumstances be married off to a widower, a divorcee, or as a second wife. This custom of marriage at a tender age , which was similar to that of the Muslims, was essentially meant to ensure pre-marital chastity.  *For the Yemenite Jews, however, one major motivation for child betrothal and marriage was to ensure the exemption of Jewish children from the decree of forced conversion, to which Jewish orphans who did not attain puberty before their father died were subjected in Yemen* "
> 
> Evidently it is you who lacks reading comprehension.  As I've already explained, when it's all one paragraph, it's all one concept.
> 
> What kind of 'scholarship' is it to cite an author and then edit out what he states is a* MAJOR MOTIVATION*  for the pattern he's discussing?
> 
> Once again, you have lied and the proof is here for all to read.
Click to expand...


Stop lying, can you possibly tell the truth?

I provided a quote of a source who stated child marriage was the custom in Yemen, the fact they are the custom is the primary explanation for child marriages occurring in Yemen, and the author explains a primary purpose of this custom, ensuring chastity. Then, after stating this, he adds, "one major motivation" for Jewish children of child marriages  is to protect  Jewish children from the decree of forced conversion that he says would occur if the children became orphans before marriage (that would only apply if the child's parents both died before the child was married). Let's look at the sequence of the words. First, CUSTOM explains the practice, that is custom inside Yemen where child marriages are commonly embraced. Second, he tries to explain the reason for the custom. He says the custom was "essentially meant to ensure chastity." That is a primary purpose of the custom, a primary purpose of the custom for Jews and Muslims, for everyone.  Third, the author lists another primary purpose of the custom for Jews he says "one primary motivation" for Jews is the concern of coerced conversions in the case the child might lose both parents before marriage and become an orphan. 

The fact is child marriages occur among Jews and Muslims because it is the custom in Yemen, and the custom is there to ensure chastity and, as an added reason for Jews, to avoid possible forced conversions. 

Custom explains the existence of child marriages in Yemen, not Shariah Law, and not Yemeni decrees.

And I am still waiting for a cite to that Yemeni decree that allegedly forces conversions to Islam on Jewish children in the event a child becomes an orphan.


----------



## irosie91

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> MHunterB said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SherriMunnerlyn said:
> 
> 
> 
> Child marriage is cultural and it is the culture present where it is practiced that leads to the practice.
> 
> *There is no law forcing child marriage on people.*
> 
> That is why in countries where it is common, you see the practice among people of different religions in those countries. Like Yemen, we have seen Muslims and Jews arrange child marriages for their children.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Perhaps not 'child marriages' per se - but it is obvious that the decree of forced conversion to Islam in Yemen was the main factor in perpetuating 'child marriage' there within the Jewish community.
> 
> It was the sources you cited which explained that quite clearly - yet for some 'reason' you refuse to acknowledge this fact, that such a law existed, or that it had the effect which the authors YOU chose to quote upon the Jewish community.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> What  I read an author state is the primary reason for the practice of child marriage among both Jews and Muslims was it was CUSTOM and was to ensure chastity. Yemen has a very conservative society, that is true of the Muslims, that was true of their Jewish community, as well.
> 
> You need to read my source again, what they said, you seem to have a problem reading and comprehending English.
> 
> The Jews of the British Crown Colony of Aden: History, Culture, and Ethnic ... - Reuben Ahroni - Google Books
> 
> And what I find Unbelievable  is seeing Zionist Jews  use this excuse, they made us  do it, to justify marrying their very own children off at as young an age as 8 years old.
> 
> But why should I be surprised, after hearing Zionist Golda Meir kill Palestinian children, admit it, and claim Palestinians made her do it.
> 
> Truth is, blaming others for everything a Zionist Jew does, every bad act and every immoral act and every crime against humanity and crimes against one's very own children even, are blamed on the Gentiles!
> 
> A Zionist cannot accept blame for any act they do, they are always the eternal victim!
> 
> And another point, I do not believe there is a " decree of forced conversion to Islam in Yemen", let me see you provide a cite for that law you claim is a decree in Yemen!
Click to expand...




      try again sherri     the   "DHIMMI ORPHAN LAW"  is not specifically  yemeni----
it is a   SHARIAH LAW       In fact muslims justify it as being a  law of  'GREAT 
COMPASSION"       it provides for the orphans among the dhimmis -----that they are mercifully     given over to  muslim  "guardians"      where they can benefit by living 
in a muslim household-----since being a slave to a muslim is better than being a non-
muslim      It is the basis for the enslavement of tens of thousands of  Sudanese christian 
children-------yes----such lucky kids are forced into islam          why not try googling 
 DHIMMI ORPHAN LAW          I appreciate that law------it galvanized my husbands 
grandfather-----way back in the  1930s -----to struggle to get his own son ----and 
his son's little bride out of yemen -----to  Palestine

If you want to know something about   islamic law-----there are several websites 
that  will answer your questions and describe   THE BEAUTY OF ISLAM

Yemen     resisted the repudiation of the dhimmi orphan law ----against the 
wishes of the OTTOMANS and the BRITISH    --------and still does.     Your 
hero    OSAMA BIN LADEN ----was all for it


----------



## SherriMunnerlyn

Roudy said:


> SherriMunnerlyn said:
> 
> 
> 
> Child marriage is cultural and it is the culture present where it is practiced that leads to the practice.
> 
> There is no law forcing child marriage on people.
> 
> That is why in countries where it is common, you see the practice among people of different religions in those countries. Like Yemen, we have seen Muslims and Jews arrange child marriages for their children.
> 
> 
> 
> If it's cultural why was it not practiced in Iran during the Shah's time, but when Islamists took over, it became totally legal and acceptable?
> 
> An inconvenient truth.
Click to expand...


Iran does not force child marriages on her people, she never has. Child marriages occurred before and after the Shahs reign. They may or may not have increased, I am not sure if the reports I am reading are reporting a real increase in the incidence of child marriages or they are just propaganda reports, spewed by Iran's enemies. If they have increased, it is likely because of economic reasons. People are struggling to live, and cannot afford to take care of their families. The religion of the people has not changed since the Revolution, they were mostly Muslim before the Revolution  and remain mostly Muslim. Cultural reasons explain child marriage, its mostly in rural areas and among the poor and uneducated. There are more poor and uneducated people now, and many people addicted to drugs, too, in particular opium. Unemployment is high, suicides are rising, people cannot even buy medications they need to sustain their life, because of US sanctions. If they cannot afford to take care of their children or send them to college, then I can see them marrying the children when they are younger.


----------



## Sunni Man

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> Truth is, blaming others for everything a Zionist Jew does, every bad act and every immoral act and every crime against humanity and crimes against one's very own children even, are blamed on the Gentiles!
> 
> A Zionist cannot accept blame for any act they do, they are always the eternal victim.


Typical juden behavior and mind set.  ..


----------



## irosie91

the laws of marriage in  Iran are mediated by   "ISLAMIC LAW"       In fact the laws of 
marriage in Israel are mediated by the laws of whatever is the chosen religion of the 
couple in question.    Regarding Yemen----when jews lived there----the laws of marriage 
for jews were mediated by jewish law just as the laws of marriage for muslims are still 
mediated over there by islamic law.       In muslim countries islamic law takes precedence 
over non islamic law.      The dhimmi orphan law is part of the shariah code,   In Iran---the 
penalty for a non muslim man who marries a muslim woman is death.   A few years ago 
Germany was forced to pay a huge ransom to free a German citizen who had married 
an Iranian muslim woman .     Today---persons of prior Iranian citizenship who are registered 
there as  "muslim"------risk a death sentence if they admit they have converted to another 
religion during a  visit to see the folks  "back home"


----------



## toastman

Sunni Man said:


> SherriMunnerlyn said:
> 
> 
> 
> Truth is, blaming others for everything a Zionist Jew does, every bad act and every immoral act and every crime against humanity and crimes against one's very own children even, are blamed on the Gentiles!
> 
> A Zionist cannot accept blame for any act they do, they are always the eternal victim.
> 
> 
> 
> Typical juden behavior and mind set.  ..
Click to expand...


And the the OP is typical Muslim behavior...


----------



## Coyote

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> The Jews of the British Crown Colony of Aden: History, Culture, and Ethnic ... - Reuben Ahroni - Google Books
> 
> 
> This is interesting,  a book addressing child marriage among the Jews of Yemen. It is said the practice was common, children were commonly married at age 9 and 10.* This supports the argument child marriage in Yemen is primarily cultural.* Or does someone here really want to argue it was the influence of Judaism that is the primary explanation for this?



It is heavily cultural and Yemen is also the poorest ME country.  I don't dispute the fact that religion does play a role, but it's a lesser role than economic conditions and cultural traditions.  That explains why, in countries with multiple religions it's spread out across all of them.


----------



## Coyote

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> The photo below shows two little girls, recent immigrants from Yemen to Israel. The girl on the left is said to be married, the girl on the right is not. They look about age 8 or 9.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "The Yemenite girl was often engaged to be married before she was twelve years old, and she was not able to choose her future husband. When young children were orphaned, there was a danger that the Yemenis might force their conversion to Islam and remove them from the Jewish community. Thus, marriages of very young people were often arranged to prevent this tragedy. However, it appears that young girls lived with their husbands only after they matured. Marriage to older men was not unknown, and neither was polygamy. The major circumstance leading to polygamy was the practice of*levirate marriage*(a religious obligation to marry the wife of a brother who died without issue), which was encouraged among Yemenite Jews even into the twentieth century. Following her wedding, the bride moved to her mother-in-laws house where she joined the pool of female workers, continuing the same arduous tasks that she had been trained for by her own mother."
> 
> Yemen and the Yishuv | Jewish Women's Archive
> 
> But it is interesting reading also how the Jews of Yemen followed the practice of levirate marriage, that is discussed in the Mishnah verses I cited earlier, in addition to having their daughters enter into child marriages.
> 
> Was it culture or religion that primarily explained child marriage among the Jews of Yemen?
> 
> I think it was primarily culture, but religion seems to have played a role, too.



Culture and religion are certainly intertwined and these regions are very tribal and not too different I would guess, from the cultures of biblical times.  Those are interesting articles Sherri - good post.


----------



## Coyote

MHunterB said:


> SherriMunnerlyn said:
> 
> 
> 
> The Jews of the British Crown Colony of Aden: History, Culture, and Ethnic ... - Reuben Ahroni - Google Books
> 
> 
> This is interesting,  a book addressing child marriage among the Jews of Yemen. It is said the practice was common, children were commonly married at age 9 and 10. This supports the argument child marriage in Yemen is primarily cultural. Or does someone here really want to argue it was the influence of Judaism that is the primary explanation for this?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It is very clear from the text of this book you've quoted, that the 'influence' in Yemen was a Yemeni LAW which required the conversion from Judaism to Islam of ay orphan unmarried girl who had not yet reached 'majority' age.
> 
> I think it's very obvious that this situation is a result of that Yemeni 'law' - and not of any cultural or religious preference of the Jewish Yemenite community.
Click to expand...


The source lists that as one major reason for orphans- but, it also states it was cultural practice and girls over the age of 18 were considered unmarriageable, you can't really say it has nothing to do with culture.  

I think it's honest to say it's a combination of reasons including the local culture.  Culture and religion are entertwined but in regions where there are multiple religions in the same culture - their cultural values and traditions are very similar.


----------



## Coyote

irosie91 said:


> SherriMunnerlyn said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MHunterB said:
> 
> 
> 
> The reason for this practice is right there in the quote:  to prevent the abduction and forced conversion of orphaned girls.
> 
> Of course there are hardly any Jews left alive in Yemen.
> Yemeni Jews secretly airlifted to Israel | Jewish Telegraphic Agency
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That was not the only reason for child marriages, they were the accepted practice all across Yemen society.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What were the other reasons for  "child marriage" for jewish girls and boys in yemeni society and what does any of it have to do with  40 year old man bedding an eight year
> old girl?        A bit of interesting insight------Yemenite jews have a remarkable regard
> for  ANYTHING  written by   MAIMONIDES-----He completely disallowed sex by force upon
> a woman ----in marriage-----any level of force or coercion was completely----"outlawed"---
> He even disallowed  a man to WAKE his wife from sleep in order to have sexual
> contact       (see  "Guide for the Perplexed")
> 
> *Regarding  "child marriage"--------Jews are not the only people who contract marriages long before there is consumation thereof.    *    Hindu informants-----who grew up in
> remote and impoverished parts of India------have informed me that very early marriages
> in India-------meant the girl lived with her mother-in-law for several years and generally
> did not have anything to do with her young husband---------for quite awhile.
> Mahatma Gandhi and his wife were married when both were 12. -------According to a
> biography of Mahatma Gandhi that I read-------for years they were not only never alone
> together------they barely interacted with each other at all.      Interestingly----he regretted
> the fact that he was kept from her-------since he felt he could have rendered her literate---
> if he had the opportunity
Click to expand...


Absolutely right and I think that is the point Sherri is making - it's not just Jews, Muslims, Hindus etc - it's widespread cultural practices in certain regions of the world.


----------



## Coyote

MHunterB said:


> *OF COURSE it's 'cultural' - but it's the culture of the shari'a -ruled state.  *
> 
> Ignoring the obvious effects of a law which steals young children away from widowed mothers is an inexcusable lapse in scholarship.
> 
> No respectable student would attempt to deny that Mormon culture was impacted by the admission of Utah as a State:  the situation of the Jewish community in Yemen is similar.
> 
> Although the LDS has largely steered away from the blatant racism - equating light skin color with 'enlightenment' and obedience to GOD - found in the Book of Mormon,  that has all been fairly recent 'revelation', since the 1970's.  They used to have rules that limited the religious offices which a 'nonwhite' Mormon could hold......
> 
> Here is another condition which is extremely rare among 'white' women - but which is endemic among women of color in many nations in Africa and some in Asia:  The Fistula Foundation : Help give a woman a new life
> 
> It is ENTIRELY preventable - and ENTIRELY 'cultural'.



While Sharia has some influence it's inaccurate to say it's only the culture of Sharia - child marriages exist in states dominated by a variety of religions and most often the culture precedes the religion.  What Sherri's source pointed out was that religious conversion was a "major factor" - but it did not rule out culture and noted that child marriage was wide-spread among Yemeni Jews.

Child marriage is driven by a combination of factors that work together and I think this is evident in Yemen.  The single most important factor across the board seems to be poverty.

I don't think this discussion should be read as an attack on Jews - it's taking a look at the factors that underlie child marriage - in Yemen, in particular and around the world in general.  I think there are cultural traditions,  biblical/tribal cultures that formed the backbone of the Abrahamic faiths that are at play here and they are traditions that we, in the west, have largely relegated to history or to a more ceremonial/metaphoric interpretation.


----------



## Coyote

Roudy said:


> SherriMunnerlyn said:
> 
> 
> 
> Child marriage is cultural and it is the culture present where it is practiced that leads to the practice.
> 
> There is no law forcing child marriage on people.
> 
> That is why in countries where it is common, you see the practice among people of different religions in those countries. Like Yemen, we have seen Muslims and Jews arrange child marriages for their children.
> 
> 
> 
> If it's cultural why was it not practiced in Iran during the Shah's time, but when Islamists took over, it became totally legal and acceptable?
> 
> An inconvenient truth.
Click to expand...


The Shah was a dictator and had the ability to force social change on a medievil culture in much the same way the British ended the practice of sati in India.  That didn't necessarily stop it in the provinces and rural districts where it most likely continued quietly.  As to why it resurfaced - because Iranian Islamists represent the most fundamentalist cult of Islam and child marriage is in accordance with that fundamentalist approach.


----------



## Coyote

S.J. said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SherriMunnerlyn said:
> 
> 
> 
> Another story of child-brides emerged several years ago in Israel&#8217;s north. Rabbi Shlomo Eliezer Schick of the Bratslav Hassidic movement in Yavne&#8217;el in the Galilee*was arrested*&#8220;for officiating the marriages of some 20 underage couples, mostly ages 12 to 16,&#8221; according to Ha&#8217;aretz. In Israel, marriage under the age of 17 is illegal. Schick actually has a bit of a following, and even his own nickname &#8220;The Mohorosh,&#8221; although if he has continued to marry off children, he has been doing it under the radar.
> 
> Mishnah - Judaism's Oral Torah - Rabbinic Judaism
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That reminds me of some of the pseudo Christian cults in the US, like Warren Jeffs, who forced kids into marriage.  It's easy to distort religion into a self-serving cult.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Here's the difference.  Warren Jeffs was put in prison for doing that in the United States, in Islamic countries it is considered normal and they are protected *and defended (like on this site),* and in some cases they are elevated to "prophet" status.
Click to expand...



Exactly - because we, in the US are not a medievil society nor are we beset by the degree of poverty and weak central government found in Islamic countries like Yemen, Hindu countries like Nepal, and Christian countries like Central African Republic.

In Islamic countries it is not necessarily considered "normal" (depends on the country and region within the ocuntry) but rather, archaic.  For example - the OP provoked a great deal of outrage in the Islamic community as witnessed by the article from Kuwait and pressure, from the Muslim community, on Yemen forced the Yemen government to consider legislating a higher minimum age for marriage.

Funny thing here.  You have several times claimed that child marriage is "defended" on this site and every time your feet are put to the fire to provide proof of that allegation you fail miserably to find a single link.


----------



## Coyote

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> MHunterB said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SherriMunnerlyn said:
> 
> 
> 
> Child marriage is cultural and it is the culture present where it is practiced that leads to the practice.
> 
> *There is no law forcing child marriage on people.*
> 
> That is why in countries where it is common, you see the practice among people of different religions in those countries. Like Yemen, we have seen Muslims and Jews arrange child marriages for their children.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Perhaps not 'child marriages' per se - but it is obvious that the decree of forced conversion to Islam in Yemen was the main factor in perpetuating 'child marriage' there within the Jewish community.
> 
> It was the sources you cited which explained that quite clearly - yet for some 'reason' you refuse to acknowledge this fact, that such a law existed, or that it had the effect which the authors YOU chose to quote upon the Jewish community.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> What  I read an author state is the primary reason for the practice of child marriage among both Jews and Muslims was it was CUSTOM and was to ensure chastity. Yemen has a very conservative society, that is true of the Muslims, that was true of their Jewish community, as well.
> 
> You need to read my source again, what they said, you seem to have a problem reading and comprehending English.
> 
> The Jews of the British Crown Colony of Aden: History, Culture, and Ethnic ... - Reuben Ahroni - Google Books
> 
> And what I find Unbelievable  is seeing Zionist Jews  use this excuse, they made us  do it, to justify marrying their very own children off at as young an age as 8 years old.
> 
> But why should I be surprised, after hearing Zionist Golda Meir kill Palestinian children, admit it, and claim Palestinians made her do it.
> 
> Truth is, blaming others for everything a Zionist Jew does, every bad act and every immoral act and every crime against humanity and crimes against one's very own children even, are blamed on the Gentiles!
> 
> A Zionist cannot accept blame for any act they do, they are always the eternal victim!
> 
> And another point, I do not believe there is a " decree of forced conversion to Islam in Yemen", let me see you provide a cite for that law you claim is a decree in Yemen!
Click to expand...


Sherri, it has nothing to do with "Zionist Jews".  Your own source stated that one major factor (but not the only factor) was concern over forced conversion.

Wikipedia says: Yemenite Jews - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



> In 1922, the government of Yemen, under Imam Yahya reintroduced an ancient Islamic law entitled the "orphans decree". *The law dictated that, if Jewish boys or girls under the age of twelve were orphaned, they were to be forcibly converted to Islam, their connections to their families and communities were to be severed and they had to be handed over to Muslim foster families.* The rule was based on the law that the prophet Mohammed is "the father of the orphans," and on the fact that the Jews in Yemen were considered "under protection" and the ruler was obligated to care for them.[45]


----------



## Coyote

MHunterB said:


> SherriMunnerlyn said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MHunterB said:
> 
> 
> 
> Perhaps not 'child marriages' per se - but it is obvious that the decree of forced conversion to Islam in Yemen was the main factor in perpetuating 'child marriage' there within the Jewish community.
> 
> It was the sources you cited which explained that quite clearly - yet for some 'reason' you refuse to acknowledge this fact, that such a law existed, or that it had the effect which the authors YOU chose to quote upon the Jewish community.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What  I read an author state is the primary reason for the practice of child marriage among both Jews and Muslims was to ensure chastity. Yemen has a very conservative society, that is true of the Muslims, that was true of their Jewish community, as well.
> 
> You need to read my source again, what they said, you seem to have a problem reading and comprehending English.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Anyone can see, from going to your post earlier in this thread, that the one author stated as you quoted:
> 
> "The Yemenite girl was often engaged to be married before she was twelve years old, and she was not able to choose her future husband. *When young children were orphaned, there was a danger that the Yemenis might force their conversion to Islam and remove them from the Jewish community.* Thus, marriages of very young people were often arranged to prevent this tragedy. However, it appears that young girls lived with their husbands only after they matured. Marriage to older men was not unknown, and neither was polygamy. The major circumstance leading to polygamy was the practice of*levirate marriage*(a religious obligation to marry the wife of a brother who died without issue), which was encouraged among Yemenite Jews even into the twentieth century. Following her wedding, the bride moved to her mother-in-laws house where she joined the pool of female workers, continuing the same arduous tasks that she had been trained for by her own mother."
> 
> Yemen and the Yishuv | Jewish Women's Archive
> 
> 
> A few posts later you 'quoted' another author.
> 
> "The custom of child marriage, which was generally prevalent among Jews in Yemen, was not known in Aden. As Gamliel, a Yeminite writer points out, sons, particularly daughters, were married off in their early teens, in many cases even at the age of nine or ten. The marriage prospect for girls who passed the age of 18, he notes, were slim. These old girls would under the best possible circumstances be married off to a widower, a divorcee, or as a second wife. This custom of marriage at a tender age , which was similar to that of the Muslims, was essentially meant to ensure pre-marital chastity...."
> 
> The Jews of the British Crown Colony of Aden: History, Culture, and Ethnic ... - Reuben Ahroni - Google Books
> 
> The quote is found on p.126, in a lengthy footnote , which reads in full:
> 
> The custom of child marriage, which was generally prevalent among Jews in Yemen, was not known in Aden. As Gamliel, a Yeminite writer points out, sons, particularly daughters, were married off in their early teens, in many cases even at the age of nine or ten. The marriage prospect for girls who passed the age of 18, he notes, were slim. These old girls would under the best possible circumstances be married off to a widower, a divorcee, or as a second wife. This custom of marriage at a tender age , which was similar to that of the Muslims, was essentially meant to ensure pre-marital chastity.  *For the Yemenite Jews, however, one major motivation for child betrothal and marriage was to ensure the exemption of Jewish children from the decree of forced conversion, to which Jewish orphans who did not attain puberty before their father died were subjected in Yemen* "
> 
> Evidently it is you who lacks reading comprehension.  As I've already explained, when it's all one paragraph, it's all one concept.
> 
> What kind of 'scholarship' is it to cite an author and then edit out what he states is a* MAJOR MOTIVATION*  for the pattern he's discussing?
> 
> Once again, you have lied and the proof is here for all to read.
Click to expand...


Actually, he states *one major motivation* - meaning, one of several.


----------



## irosie91

Coyote said:


> irosie91 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SherriMunnerlyn said:
> 
> 
> 
> That was not the only reason for child marriages, they were the accepted practice all across Yemen society.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What were the other reasons for  "child marriage" for jewish girls and boys in yemeni society and what does any of it have to do with  40 year old man bedding an eight year
> old girl?        A bit of interesting insight------Yemenite jews have a remarkable regard
> for  ANYTHING  written by   MAIMONIDES-----He completely disallowed sex by force upon
> a woman ----in marriage-----any level of force or coercion was completely----"outlawed"---
> He even disallowed  a man to WAKE his wife from sleep in order to have sexual
> contact       (see  "Guide for the Perplexed")
> 
> *Regarding  "child marriage"--------Jews are not the only people who contract marriages long before there is consumation thereof.    *    Hindu informants-----who grew up in
> remote and impoverished parts of India------have informed me that very early marriages
> in India-------meant the girl lived with her mother-in-law for several years and generally
> did not have anything to do with her young husband---------for quite awhile.
> Mahatma Gandhi and his wife were married when both were 12. -------According to a
> biography of Mahatma Gandhi that I read-------for years they were not only never alone
> together------they barely interacted with each other at all.      Interestingly----he regretted
> the fact that he was kept from her-------since he felt he could have rendered her literate---
> if he had the opportunity
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Absolutely right and I think that is the point Sherri is making - it's not just Jews, Muslims, Hindus etc - it's widespread cultural practices in certain regions of the world.
Click to expand...




wrong again  Coyote-------the SUBJECT OF THIS THREAD  -----is the BEDDING of 
an eight year old girl ----AGAINST HER WILL  -----by a 40 year old man      Why would 
a person of your credentials  post an  OFF TOPIC  post?

----for a bit of  "medical history"         in medieval times------it was a commonly held 
belief in   "islamic medicine"     that old men who bed children attain the "essence of youth" ---thereby.  

according to my hindu informants-----who may have been doing a bit of a coverup-----or 
maybe not.  ----     The families of  child couples ----ie the family of the boy simply watch 
with amusement to see when the boy will begin to attempt to extract a kiss from his  little 
wife----------which by accepted custom------the little wife indignantly refuses and indignantly 
REPORTS   to HIS mother        The biography of Mahatma Gandhi does kinda confirm this 
social  more'    Another intersting social more'   amongst hindus is that a wife-----has an option of announcing      "I AM GOING HOME TO MOTHER"--------(for a visit)     Her 
husband's family is kinda obligated to let her  "visit"  her parents where her brothers'  wives 
will wait on her hand and foot

The answer to this issue lies in just how the  SHARIAH COURTS of Yemen will deal with 
the issue of death by coerced sex upon an eight year old.      My guess is that the man 
may be required to pay     'blood money"    to the family of the victim       In the case of 
a girl-----the value of her life is    1/2 that of a muslim male child.     I have no idea what the 
going rate is.         According to strict islamic law------he owes nobody nothing------because 
male sex with a partner  "LEGAL"  for him------is ----simply -----legal ----no matter 
what the outcome.       It's all in the koran------an interesting read.    In fact the husband of 
the dead child may even demand a   REFUND of the    "MAHR"-----which is a sum of 
money he paid the parents of the girl for bestowing his little wife upon him

According to your definition of populations   ALL HAVE THE SAME PROPORTIONS of 
alcoholics,   thieves and  perverts who  ALL DO THE SAME SORT OF THINGS with 
equal frequency-------there is no need at all for the science of  Anthropology -----
MARGARET MEADE   wasted her time observing     "coming of age in samoa"


----------



## Coyote

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> S.J. said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> That reminds me of some of the pseudo Christian cults in the US, like Warren Jeffs, who forced kids into marriage.  It's easy to distort religion into a self-serving cult.
> 
> 
> 
> Here's the difference.  Warren Jeffs was put in prison for doing that in the United States, in Islamic countries it is considered normal and they are protected and defended (like on this site), and in some cases they are elevated to "prophet" status.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Eliezer Schick was a Jewish Rabbi who was carrying out unlawful underage marriages of Israeli Jews inside Israel. *He probably was not punished by the Zionist Regime, Jewish rabbis do get preferential treatment by the Zionist State.* It does appear he had some type of Prophet status in Israel, he even had his own nickname there.
> 
> What you are wrong about is calling Israel an Islamic State, they call themselves the Jewish State.
Click to expand...


I seriously doubt he was given preferential treatment - neither pedophiles nor their enablers are well tolerated in western countries.


----------



## Coyote

irosie91 said:


> wrong again  Coyote-------the SUBJECT OF THIS THREAD  -----is the BEDDING of
> an eight year old girl ----AGAINST HER WILL  -----by a 40 year old man      Why would
> a person of your credentials  post an  OFF TOPIC  post?



*This is Zone 3 Rosie*


----------



## Hollie

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> irosie91 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SherriMunnerlyn said:
> 
> 
> 
> That is not all the Talmud says, as has been addressed with the verses I set forth in the Mishnah I provided a cite for. They are obviously interpreted differently, today and in the past, explaining child marriages in the past and today. I previously provided a link to an article addressing recent cases of child marriage that have occurred among Jews in Israel.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I got bad news for you sherri-----the  Mishnah is not the talmud
> 
> what is it that you imagine   "the talmud says"  ???        Your comment is so  vague that
> it is meaningless------what  is it   you imagine is  "obviously interpreted differently today
> and in the past"  ?        Your abilty to figure out what is expressed in the talmud is even
> worse than is your ability to understand that which is expressed in the New Testament.
> 
> I have good news for you------you need not guess--------the talmud has been
> the subject of   RECORDED ANALYSIS for more  than 2500 years--------continuously.
> Thus it is possible for you to actually  read about that which you imagine  "changed"
> 
> I cannot find your link to  "child marriages"   in Israel-------what are you calling a
> "child marriage"???  --------is the marriage between  two sixteen  year olds
> a "child marriage"?       its legal in Maryland.     You are off topic----the topic of
> this thread is ---------"a 40 year old bedded an eight year old and killed her doing it"
> Just how this case is considered in Yemen----which is a shariah adherent society-----
> will be demonstrated  by  the actually actions taken to the legal system over there.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The*Talmud*(/&#712;t&#593;&#720;lm&#650;d,*-m&#601;d,*&#712;tæl-/;*Hebrew:*&#1514;&#1463;&#1468;&#1500;&#1456;&#1502;&#1493;&#1468;&#1491;*talm&#363;d"instruction, learning", from a*root*lmd*"teach, study") is a central text of Rabbinic*Judaism. It is also traditionally referred to as*Shas*(&#1513;&#1524;&#1505, aHebrew*abbreviation of*shisha sedarim, the "six orders". The Talmud has two components. The first part is the*Mishnah*(Hebrew: &#1502;&#1513;&#1504;&#1492;, c. 200 CE), the written compendium of Judaism's*Oral Torah*(Torah meaning "Instruction", "Teaching" in Hebrew). The second part is theGemara*(c. 500 CE), an elucidation of the Mishnah and related*Tannaiticwritings that often ventures onto other subjects and expounds broadly on the*Jewish Bible.
> 
> 
> Talmud - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> And one more time, the story in the OP did not happen. You want to claim it happened, you prove it.
Click to expand...


Sherry uses yet another thread to promote her insensate Jew hatreds

 The islamist apologists continue to deflect accepting responsibility for what islamism allows in terms of child abuse. There are definite clues that there will be continuing abuse of female children in the Islamic Middle East as the very nature of islamist societies establish governments that are based upon religious affiliation to a 7th century Arab warlord.  Lets not forget, radical and fundamentalist Islam is easily spread around this region because ideologically these folks believe that 1.) Their religion is right (and all religions believe this, but Judaism doesnt export and Christianity long ago stopped using Crusades and genocide to export Islam is still 7 th century in this regard) and 2.) Islamic ideology has achieved only the ability to keep its adherents shackled to third-world status.


----------



## irosie91

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> MHunterB said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SherriMunnerlyn said:
> 
> 
> 
> What  I read an author state is the primary reason for the practice of child marriage among both Jews and Muslims was to ensure chastity. Yemen has a very conservative society, that is true of the Muslims, that was true of their Jewish community, as well.
> 
> You need to read my source again, what they said, you seem to have a problem reading and comprehending English.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Anyone can see, from going to your post earlier in this thread, that the one author stated as you quoted:
> 
> "The Yemenite girl was often engaged to be married before she was twelve years old, and she was not able to choose her future husband. *When young children were orphaned, there was a danger that the Yemenis might force their conversion to Islam and remove them from the Jewish community.* Thus, marriages of very young people were often arranged to prevent this tragedy. However, it appears that young girls lived with their husbands only after they matured. Marriage to older men was not unknown, and neither was polygamy. The major circumstance leading to polygamy was the practice of*levirate marriage*(a religious obligation to marry the wife of a brother who died without issue), which was encouraged among Yemenite Jews even into the twentieth century. Following her wedding, the bride moved to her mother-in-laws house where she joined the pool of female workers, continuing the same arduous tasks that she had been trained for by her own mother."
> 
> Yemen and the Yishuv | Jewish Women's Archive
> 
> 
> A few posts later you 'quoted' another author.
> 
> "The custom of child marriage, which was generally prevalent among Jews in Yemen, was not known in Aden. As Gamliel, a Yeminite writer points out, sons, particularly daughters, were married off in their early teens, in many cases even at the age of nine or ten. The marriage prospect for girls who passed the age of 18, he notes, were slim. These old girls would under the best possible circumstances be married off to a widower, a divorcee, or as a second wife. This custom of marriage at a tender age , which was similar to that of the Muslims, was essentially meant to ensure pre-marital chastity...."
> 
> The Jews of the British Crown Colony of Aden: History, Culture, and Ethnic ... - Reuben Ahroni - Google Books
> 
> The quote is found on p.126, in a lengthy footnote , which reads in full:
> 
> The custom of child marriage, which was generally prevalent among Jews in Yemen, was not known in Aden. As Gamliel, a Yeminite writer points out, sons, particularly daughters, were married off in their early teens, in many cases even at the age of nine or ten. The marriage prospect for girls who passed the age of 18, he notes, were slim. These old girls would under the best possible circumstances be married off to a widower, a divorcee, or as a second wife. This custom of marriage at a tender age , which was similar to that of the Muslims, was essentially meant to ensure pre-marital chastity.  *For the Yemenite Jews, however, one major motivation for child betrothal and marriage was to ensure the exemption of Jewish children from the decree of forced conversion, to which Jewish orphans who did not attain puberty before their father died were subjected in Yemen* "
> 
> Evidently it is you who lacks reading comprehension.  As I've already explained, when it's all one paragraph, it's all one concept.
> 
> What kind of 'scholarship' is it to cite an author and then edit out what he states is a* MAJOR MOTIVATION*  for the pattern he's discussing?
> 
> Once again, you have lied and the proof is here for all to read.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Stop lying, can you possibly tell the truth?
> 
> I provided a quote of a source who stated child marriage was the custom in Yemen, the fact they are the custom is the primary explanation for child marriages occurring in Yemen, and the author explains a primary purpose of this custom, ensuring chastity. Then, after stating this, he adds, "one major motivation" for Jewish children of child marriages  is to protect  Jewish children from the decree of forced conversion that he says would occur if the children became orphans before marriage (that would only apply if the child's parents both died before the child was married). Let's look at the sequence of the words. First, CUSTOM explains the practice, that is custom inside Yemen where child marriages are commonly embraced. Second, he tries to explain the reason for the custom. He says the custom was "essentially meant to ensure chastity." That is a primary purpose of the custom, a primary purpose of the custom for Jews and Muslims, for everyone.  Third, the author lists another primary purpose of the custom for Jews he says "one primary motivation" for Jews is the concern of coerced conversions in the case the child might lose both parents before marriage and become an orphan.
> 
> The fact is child marriages occur among Jews and Muslims because it is the custom in Yemen, and the custom is there to ensure chastity and, as an added reason for Jews, to avoid possible forced conversions.
> 
> Custom explains the existence of child marriages in Yemen, not Shariah Law, and not Yemeni decrees.
> 
> And I am still waiting for a cite to that Yemeni decree that allegedly forces conversions to Islam on Jewish children in the event a child becomes an orphan.
Click to expand...




Keep waiting       I kinda enjoy your admission that you known nothing at all 
about   isa-respecting islamic law          The dhimmi orphan law is not 
particularly  "YEMENI"    except for the fact that  Yemen ----resented the 
IMPOSITION by the ottomans that the law be repudiated  ------and  DEMANDED its 
reinstatement    sometime around   1930    just in time for it to affect the life of my 
mother-in-law whose father died when she was 11

In places that had a strong  BRITISH PRESENCE-----at that time-------the law could 
not be fully implemented which is why it did not work in   ADEN-------Aden is the place 
to which      hubby's parents and-----his paternal grandfather fled to avoid it.      Is that 
not interesting?        In Yemen    OUT IN THE STICKS------it is   ALL SHARIAH       See sherri----even you can learn a bit of  REAL HISTORY         (for Coyote----there is nothing 
like  PRIMARY SOURCE MATERIAL)


----------



## irosie91

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> MHunterB said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SherriMunnerlyn said:
> 
> 
> 
> What  I read an author state is the primary reason for the practice of child marriage among both Jews and Muslims was to ensure chastity. Yemen has a very conservative society, that is true of the Muslims, that was true of their Jewish community, as well.
> 
> You need to read my source again, what they said, you seem to have a problem reading and comprehending English.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Anyone can see, from going to your post earlier in this thread, that the one author stated as you quoted:
> 
> "The Yemenite girl was often engaged to be married before she was twelve years old, and she was not able to choose her future husband. *When young children were orphaned, there was a danger that the Yemenis might force their conversion to Islam and remove them from the Jewish community.* Thus, marriages of very young people were often arranged to prevent this tragedy. However, it appears that young girls lived with their husbands only after they matured. Marriage to older men was not unknown, and neither was polygamy. The major circumstance leading to polygamy was the practice of*levirate marriage*(a religious obligation to marry the wife of a brother who died without issue), which was encouraged among Yemenite Jews even into the twentieth century. Following her wedding, the bride moved to her mother-in-laws house where she joined the pool of female workers, continuing the same arduous tasks that she had been trained for by her own mother."
> 
> Yemen and the Yishuv | Jewish Women's Archive
> 
> 
> A few posts later you 'quoted' another author.
> 
> "The custom of child marriage, which was generally prevalent among Jews in Yemen, was not known in Aden. As Gamliel, a Yeminite writer points out, sons, particularly daughters, were married off in their early teens, in many cases even at the age of nine or ten. The marriage prospect for girls who passed the age of 18, he notes, were slim. These old girls would under the best possible circumstances be married off to a widower, a divorcee, or as a second wife. This custom of marriage at a tender age , which was similar to that of the Muslims, was essentially meant to ensure pre-marital chastity...."
> 
> The Jews of the British Crown Colony of Aden: History, Culture, and Ethnic ... - Reuben Ahroni - Google Books
> 
> The quote is found on p.126, in a lengthy footnote , which reads in full:
> 
> The custom of child marriage, which was generally prevalent among Jews in Yemen, was not known in Aden. As Gamliel, a Yeminite writer points out, sons, particularly daughters, were married off in their early teens, in many cases even at the age of nine or ten. The marriage prospect for girls who passed the age of 18, he notes, were slim. These old girls would under the best possible circumstances be married off to a widower, a divorcee, or as a second wife. This custom of marriage at a tender age , which was similar to that of the Muslims, was essentially meant to ensure pre-marital chastity.  *For the Yemenite Jews, however, one major motivation for child betrothal and marriage was to ensure the exemption of Jewish children from the decree of forced conversion, to which Jewish orphans who did not attain puberty before their father died were subjected in Yemen* "
> 
> Evidently it is you who lacks reading comprehension.  As I've already explained, when it's all one paragraph, it's all one concept.
> 
> What kind of 'scholarship' is it to cite an author and then edit out what he states is a* MAJOR MOTIVATION*  for the pattern he's discussing?
> 
> Once again, you have lied and the proof is here for all to read.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Stop lying, can you possibly tell the truth?
> 
> I provided a quote of a source who stated child marriage was the custom in Yemen, the fact they are the custom is the primary explanation for child marriages occurring in Yemen, and the author explains a primary purpose of this custom, ensuring chastity. Then, after stating this, he adds, "one major motivation" for Jewish children of child marriages  is to protect  Jewish children from the decree of forced conversion that he says would occur if the children became orphans before marriage (that would only apply if the child's parents both died before the child was married). Let's look at the sequence of the words. First, CUSTOM explains the practice, that is custom inside Yemen where child marriages are commonly embraced. Second, he tries to explain the reason for the custom. He says the custom was "essentially meant to ensure chastity." That is a primary purpose of the custom, a primary purpose of the custom for Jews and Muslims, for everyone.  Third, the author lists another primary purpose of the custom for Jews he says "one primary motivation" for Jews is the concern of coerced conversions in the case the child might lose both parents before marriage and become an orphan.
> 
> 
> 
> Sherri     why do you keep screwing up your own citations       I doubt that the author
> wrote----"that would only apply if the child's parents BOTH died before the child was
> married.      If he did------you found the wrong guy to cite.      In islamic law a child
> is an orphan with the LOSS OF HIS OR HER FATHER       My mother-in-law lost her
> father      at age 11---------her MOTHER lived on -------and she did get to see her
> again more than 15 years after she fled  with her little husband and her
> father-in-law.      The reason she married at age 12 had nothing to do with chastity---
> it was   all  ---the DHIMMI ORPHAN LAW.   Yemeni muslims clung so tenaciously to the  DHIMMI  ---ORPHAN LAW yemenite jews managed to
> create all kinds of  QUICKIE ways to get  an orphaned boy or girl married  and
> ELSEWHERE       Sometimes the marriages were to unlikely candidates based
> on the EMERGENCY situation       The good news is that hubby's parents were
> very well matched.    Generally   jews do not actually  "marry"   before the age of
> consent      12 1/2 for girls and 13 for boys-----no matter how dire the circumstances---
> but they can do the  BETROTHAL THING  ---which is a kind of binding contract
> before that time.     ------parents can do it for them---BOTH of them
> IN fact your very own citations conform with that fact-----some rabbi marrying girls as
> young as 12 and boys as young as 13--------yup-----that is possible that he wanted to
> do that even though it is illegal in Israel-----Juliet was  14 when she married romeo
> Kids can legally marry in Maryland USA    at that age too.      My mother's paternal
> grandmother INSISTED on marriage at age 14 to the love of her life and proceeded
> to have 10 kids in nine years--------an obvious marriage of love   (then her husband
> died of a war would in the army of   Emperor Franz Josef-----short of age 30
> 
> what has all this got to do with the forced bedding of an 8 year old girl by a man of
> 40?.     If her husband  was 10 years old------she would be alive today
Click to expand...


----------



## SherriMunnerlyn

Coyote said:


> SherriMunnerlyn said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> S.J. said:
> 
> 
> 
> Here's the difference.  Warren Jeffs was put in prison for doing that in the United States, in Islamic countries it is considered normal and they are protected and defended (like on this site), and in some cases they are elevated to "prophet" status.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Eliezer Schick was a Jewish Rabbi who was carrying out unlawful underage marriages of Israeli Jews inside Israel. *He probably was not punished by the Zionist Regime, Jewish rabbis do get preferential treatment by the Zionist State.* It does appear he had some type of Prophet status in Israel, he even had his own nickname there.
> 
> What you are wrong about is calling Israel an Islamic State, they call themselves the Jewish State.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I seriously doubt he was given preferential treatment - neither pedophiles nor their enablers are well tolerated in western countries.
Click to expand...


Look at the reverence bestowed today in Israel upon Rabbi Schick. He is called the righteous one. His followers have been recently very concerned about his health.


"Rabbi Eliezer Shlomo Schik, known in Breslov Hasidic circles as the Tzadik (righteous one) of the Galilee city of Yavne'el, underwent successful open-heart*surgery*in the*United States*on Sunday. Leaders of Breslov community institutions in Israel left Monday to be close and help*as much as*possible. 

His followers said one of the first things he did following the operation was to write a*letter*of appreciation to about*a thousand students in the Yavne'el branches of those institutions who prayed for the success of the*surgery. Rabbi Elazar Mordechai Koenig of Tzfat flew to Uman to pray at the Tomb of Rabbi Nachman of Breslov for Rabbi Schick's recovery.Those already on the scene said the rabbi'simprovement*was noticeable, acknowledging that the post-operation period would be critical. They said that before he wrote the*letter, the rabbi asked for a tractate of Gemara to follow the worlwide reading of the Daf Yomi daily page of Talmud. People are asked to pray for the speedy and complete recovery of Rabbi Eliezer Shlomo ben Malcah.

Rabbi Eliezer Shlomo Schick Improving after Surgery - Latest News Briefs - Israel National News


----------



## MHunterB

Ah, I see the l'il sherriKKKins is still busy with her lies and hypocrisy......

She made a grand-sounding post grandstanding and slamming another poster - Coyote, I believe! - while declaiming that she, the sherrithing, would NEVER demonize another's culture by demanding they not allow marriage below a certain age.....

Oh, it's a sad sight indeed, to see such a pious humanitarian follower of Jesus the Pharisee Rabbi caught in her own hypocrisy!  : ((  Snarling and spitting venom, screeching that everyone else is 'lying' while she continues to spew hate speech and blatant bigotry.


----------



## SherriMunnerlyn

Hollie said:


> SherriMunnerlyn said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> irosie91 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I got bad news for you sherri-----the  Mishnah is not the talmud
> 
> what is it that you imagine   "the talmud says"  ???        Your comment is so  vague that
> it is meaningless------what  is it   you imagine is  "obviously interpreted differently today
> and in the past"  ?        Your abilty to figure out what is expressed in the talmud is even
> worse than is your ability to understand that which is expressed in the New Testament.
> 
> I have good news for you------you need not guess--------the talmud has been
> the subject of   RECORDED ANALYSIS for more  than 2500 years--------continuously.
> Thus it is possible for you to actually  read about that which you imagine  "changed"
> 
> I cannot find your link to  "child marriages"   in Israel-------what are you calling a
> "child marriage"???  --------is the marriage between  two sixteen  year olds
> a "child marriage"?       its legal in Maryland.     You are off topic----the topic of
> this thread is ---------"a 40 year old bedded an eight year old and killed her doing it"
> Just how this case is considered in Yemen----which is a shariah adherent society-----
> will be demonstrated  by  the actually actions taken to the legal system over there.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The*Talmud*(/&#712;t&#593;&#720;lm&#650;d,*-m&#601;d,*&#712;tæl-/;*Hebrew:*&#1514;&#1463;&#1468;&#1500;&#1456;&#1502;&#1493;&#1468;&#1491;*talm&#363;d"instruction, learning", from a*root*lmd*"teach, study") is a central text of Rabbinic*Judaism. It is also traditionally referred to as*Shas*(&#1513;&#1524;&#1505, aHebrew*abbreviation of*shisha sedarim, the "six orders". The Talmud has two components. The first part is the*Mishnah*(Hebrew: &#1502;&#1513;&#1504;&#1492;, c. 200 CE), the written compendium of Judaism's*Oral Torah*(Torah meaning "Instruction", "Teaching" in Hebrew). The second part is theGemara*(c. 500 CE), an elucidation of the Mishnah and related*Tannaiticwritings that often ventures onto other subjects and expounds broadly on the*Jewish Bible.
> 
> 
> Talmud - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> And one more time, the story in the OP did not happen. You want to claim it happened, you prove it.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Sherry uses yet another thread to promote her insensate Jew hatreds
> 
> The islamist apologists continue to deflect accepting responsibility for what islamism allows in terms of child abuse. There are definite clues that there will be continuing abuse of female children in the Islamic Middle East as the very nature of islamist societies establish governments that are based upon religious affiliation to a 7th century Arab warlord.  Lets not forget, radical and fundamentalist Islam is easily spread around this region because ideologically these folks believe that 1.) Their religion is right (and all religions believe this, but Judaism doesnt export and Christianity long ago stopped using Crusades and genocide to export Islam is still 7 th century in this regard) and 2.) Islamic ideology has achieved only the ability to keep its adherents shackled to third-world status.
Click to expand...


The thread addresses a made up story about a child marriage in Yemen that we have seen no evidence to support it even happened. 

Zionists, like you,  have been using this story of unfortunate victims of child marriages in Yemen to attack Muslims and Islam.

This is not about Islam, it is about the horrible plight of young children forced into marriages by customs in mostly poor countries like Yemen. 

This is not about Jews.

Get over yourself. 

Everything is not about Jews and demonizing Muslims.


----------



## MHunterB

"And I am still waiting for a cite to that Yemeni decree that allegedly forces conversions to Islam on Jewish children in the event a child becomes an orphan."

L'il sherrithing, I has a sad about your extreme lack of comprehension.  *The AUTHOR of the book you quoted gave the citation you are insisting upon:  that was at the very end of his footnote.*


----------



## Coyote

MHunterB said:


> "And I am still waiting for a cite to that Yemeni decree that allegedly forces conversions to Islam on Jewish children in the event a child becomes an orphan."
> 
> L'il sherrithing, I has a sad about your extreme lack of comprehension.  *The AUTHOR of the book you quoted gave the citation you are insisting upon:  that was at the very end of his footnote.*



oops....


----------



## Hossfly

Sunni Man said:


> Kinda strange how the American juden get all upset about marriage issues in muslim countries.
> 
> Yet, teen pregnancy and pedophile rape of children is epidemic in the U.S. where they live.  ..


Sunni Man is going to tell us about the Muslim honor killings which are appearing here in America.  Plus he is going to discuss female circumcision which also has found its way here to America.  And there are plenty of articles about pedephile Muslim clergy and teachers diddling with young children here and in Muslim countries in mosques and madrassas.  Perhaps Sunni Man is unaware that sexual abuse of young children is prevalent around the world, and that includes his beloved Sunnis taking part in this.  By the way, Sunni Man, do you happen to know any Muslim woman who have had that operation which makes them appear like virgins again so that they can hoodwink their future husbands?


----------



## MHunterB

Poor wee sherriliar, *And everything isn't all about 'Zionists' and a whore for HAMAS' unholy lust to demonize Zionists, Judaism and the entire Jewish People alike in her blind hatred*

Perhaps if you weren't quite the blatant liar and hypocrite your posts here have shown you to be, you might be able to make a stand against bigotry.  

It's truly sad that you're too busy giving venomous vice to your own bigotry instead:  that's no less offensive than what you're - MISTAKENLY - yelping about.

It is true that SOME posters here have expressed anti-Muslim bigotry.  I've ignored their droppings and Coyote has attempted to address some of the stupid over-generalizations.

So - instead of confronting the individuals who have made the anti-Muslim noises cluttering this discussion - you have chosen to attack Judaism, the State of Israel, and myself.

Your rabid hatred of 'Zionism' (as you imagine it to be!) has clouded your judgment.  You are making a troll of yourself, and are actually harming any chance of lessening the anti-Muslim bigotry here - because you have persisted in lies and the most revolting hypocrisy in 'defending' Islam.

Not the least of this all, is your confession that you know nothing of shari'a even as you 'defend' it.......


----------



## Hossfly

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> That's not based upon facts.  Child marriage statistics spread the largest rates of child marriage (top ten and twenty) amongst an array of religions with Muslim and Christian majority nations almost tied.  Most are in Africa and Hindu dominant Nepal and India are among the biggest offenders.  Wealthier more educated nations and nations with political stability have far few occurences of child marriages and most of those are in rural/tribal areas.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And yet, for all your continued apologetics, the sheik'ers and movers of the islamist world refuse to contradict the inventor of Islam and the perfect model for humanity.
> 
> Early Marriage | WISE Muslim Women
> 
> 
> Al-Azhar Al-Sharif in Egypt, a significant Islamic religious body, released a new manual on the rights of Muslim children that states; "Marriage in Islam is regulated by certain rules, namely, children must reach puberty and maturity so that they can get married."
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Your religion allows sexual intercourse at age 3. Why is that an improvement?
Click to expand...

All the Jew haters bring this up from time to time.  I am sure the viewers who have been on forums for quite a while have seen this dug up before many times as well as the other fake Talmud quotes..  However, as you can see, it is not true.  

The Talmud Does Not Permit Sex With A Three Year Old


----------



## MHunterB

Ah, a Sunni-turd has pooped - er, popped! - up in our discussion punchbowl as well...... the l'il Hitler-hinie-kissing girly guy!

I know that actual Sunni Muslims are revolted by his continual displays of Jew-hatred:  it's sad how the more 'Muslim' he gets, the more hateful is his trolling.


----------



## SherriMunnerlyn

MHunterB said:


> "And I am still waiting for a cite to that Yemeni decree that allegedly forces conversions to Islam on Jewish children in the event a child becomes an orphan."
> 
> L'il sherrithing, I has a sad about your extreme lack of comprehension.  *The AUTHOR of the book you quoted gave the citation you are insisting upon:  that was at the very end of his footnote.*



The author cites a book, there is no reference to a Yemeni Statute. And there is no link to the book, so I have no idea how to evaluate the claim. I have no access to that book. A decree addresses an alleged law.


----------



## MHunterB

"*This phrase "unequivocally reject child abuse by way of child marriage", this demand you seem to desire to judgmentally place on posters here, I have not heard you say you yourself unequivocally reject child abuse by way of child marriage.* And what does that even mean, this demand you place on posters here other than yourself? Who defines what child marriage is? Does childhood end at puberty, at 16, at 17, at 18, at 19, at 20, at 21? *Do you define child marriage for all of us here, for everyone in every nation? Why must I judge and condemn and demonize people at your command? I refuse to do this*. 

Child marriage has occurred in Israel, among Jews. It has occurred in the US, lawfully and unlawfully, forced and voluntary, look at Elizabeth Smart , among Christians, among Mormons, Edgar Allen Poe was said to have married his 13 year old cousin. 

*Who makes you the judge of morality for all?*
I do not approve of child marriages, or encourage the practice, but what I see is that the problem occurs within certain cultures and I see it as a struggle for the people inside those individual cultures to address. We outside of these societies encountering these issues can encourage the people there to advocate for rights for young girls women and try to assist them in obtaining rights, but it is their struggle. *What I see you as doing is demonizing the people in these societies because of the human rights struggles they are engaged in. 

I do not have to condemn and demonize people , like you do. I refuse to be like you*. "


The lies and hypocrisy of the sherrithing should be obvious from this post made about 3PM yesterday, right here.

Her continual attempts to divert the discussion into yet another virulent bout of Jew-hating and slander belie her grandiose words about refusing to demonize others.

This is, it seems to me, exactly the behavior Jesus decried in his words against 'hypocrite Pharisees'......  Sherri flounces about slamming others for 'demonizing other cultures' - and then sets about demonizing the whole of Judaism in ways that'd make a Hitler proud.


----------



## MHunterB

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> MHunterB said:
> 
> 
> 
> "And I am still waiting for a cite to that Yemeni decree that allegedly forces conversions to Islam on Jewish children in the event a child becomes an orphan."
> 
> L'il sherrithing, I has a sad about your extreme lack of comprehension.  *The AUTHOR of the book you quoted gave the citation you are insisting upon:  that was at the very end of his footnote.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The author cites a book, there is no reference to a Yemeni Statute. And there is no link to the book, so *I have no idea how to evaluate the claim*. I have no access to that book. A decree addresses an alleged law.
Click to expand...


https://www.google.com/#q=Yemeni+decree+of+forced+conversion+to+Islam+for+orphans

JSTOR: An Error Occurred Setting Your User Cookie

Orphans' Decree - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I'm sure we're all so sorry that the sherriliar's Internet is broken and she's unable to Google.....


----------



## Roudy

Coyote said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SherriMunnerlyn said:
> 
> 
> 
> Child marriage is cultural and it is the culture present where it is practiced that leads to the practice.
> 
> There is no law forcing child marriage on people.
> 
> That is why in countries where it is common, you see the practice among people of different religions in those countries. Like Yemen, we have seen Muslims and Jews arrange child marriages for their children.
> 
> 
> 
> If it's cultural why was it not practiced in Iran during the Shah's time, but when Islamists took over, it became totally legal and acceptable?
> 
> An inconvenient truth.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The Shah was a dictator and had the ability to force social change on a medievil culture in much the same way the British ended the practice of sati in India.  That didn't necessarily stop it in the provinces and rural districts where it most likely continued quietly.  As to why it resurfaced - because Iranian Islamists represent the most fundamentalist cult of Islam and child marriage is in accordance with that fundamentalist approach.
Click to expand...

Yes, and when the Islamists came to power they allowed it, and cited Islamic reasons for it. Not "cultural".  You never get it right.  Child marriage was never a "cultural thing" before the Shah.


----------



## MHunterB

From the Wiki article:

The Orphans' Decree was introduced in Yemen and obligated the Zaydi state to take under its protection and to educate in Islamic ways any dhimmi (i.e. non-Muslim) child whose parents had died when he or she was a minor. First introduced or revived in the 17th century,[1] the Orphans' Decree was ignored during Ottoman rule (1872&#8211;1918), but was observed during the period of Imam Yahya (1918&#8211;1948).[2] According to one source, the decree has "no parallel in other countries".[3]

Although forced conversion is not widely recognized under Islamic laws, historian and Arabist Shelomo Dov Goitein believes that a forced conversion of orphans could have been justified by the revelation attributed to Muhammad that states: "Every person is born to the natural religion [Islam], and only his parents make a Jew or a Christian out of him." [1]


----------



## irosie91

Coyote said:


> SherriMunnerlyn said:
> 
> 
> 
> The photo below shows two little girls, recent immigrants from Yemen to Israel. The girl on the left is said to be married, the girl on the right is not. They look about age 8 or 9.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "The Yemenite girl was often engaged to be married before she was twelve years old, and she was not able to choose her future husband. When young children were orphaned, there was a danger that the Yemenis might force their conversion to Islam and remove them from the Jewish community. Thus, marriages of very young people were often arranged to prevent this tragedy. However, it appears that young girls lived with their husbands only after they matured. Marriage to older men was not unknown, and neither was polygamy. The major circumstance leading to polygamy was the practice of*levirate marriage*(a religious obligation to marry the wife of a brother who died without issue), which was encouraged among Yemenite Jews even into the twentieth century. Following her wedding, the bride moved to her mother-in-laws house where she joined the pool of female workers, continuing the same arduous tasks that she had been trained for by her own mother."
> 
> Yemen and the Yishuv | Jewish Women's Archive
> 
> But it is interesting reading also how the Jews of Yemen followed the practice of levirate marriage, that is discussed in the Mishnah verses I cited earlier, in addition to having their daughters enter into child marriages.
> 
> Was it culture or religion that primarily explained child marriage among the Jews of Yemen?
> 
> I think it was primarily culture, but religion seems to have played a role, too.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Culture and religion are certainly intertwined and these regions are very tribal and not too different I would guess, from the cultures of biblical times.  Those are interesting articles Sherri - good post.
Click to expand...



The married girl in the picture is   14 years old and she is not only married----she has 
an infant    (well----the picture is a bit old-----her infant is probably a teenager now) 

if you think she looks younger than her 14 years----you should have seen the picture of 
her little husband.     Your analysis is -----not entirely idiotic -----but not quite right.  
Jews and muslims in Yemen barely look at each other------they live VERY SEPARATE 
lives       I like to ask very SPECIFIC QUESTIONS -----like   "WERE YOU EVER A VISITOR 
IN THE HOME OF A MUSLIM"??????

for your interest------it is a fact that yemenite jews do look YOUNGER than their years---
     A STORY FOR YOUR ENTERTAINMENT-----decades ago I lived in a two family house---
     the ---other people there were a Yemenite jewish couple with two babies.    The  
     man almost 30----the lady past 25.  ------one day the laughing husband told 
     this story------a neighbor greeted him and commented on his lovely  "THREE 
     CHILDREN"      He held up and asked-----"my three children"?       "yes"  said 
     the neighbor-----the two little ones and your big daughter"     "my big daughter"?
     Uhm----how old does she look?"          "oh  she seems to be about ten" 

     well     she was a bit shorter than even me.  -----but age ten was the 
     distant past for her

     Yemenite jews born in Yemen---tend to be short---and slender---
     until they start eating----elsewhere.     Another story-----Hubby's 
     niece at her wedding------both parents yemenite----mother petite--- 
     probably   max  5' 2"    ---father ---doll like----maybe  5' 4"----120 lbs
        bride  (their daughter)    healthy  5' 8" 

     The doll like father's comment of the day was   "my daughter gets her beauty 
     from her mother and her HEIGHT from me"


----------



## Hollie

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SherriMunnerlyn said:
> 
> 
> 
> The*Talmud*(/&#712;t&#593;&#720;lm&#650;d,*-m&#601;d,*&#712;tæl-/;*Hebrew:*&#1514;&#1463;&#1468;&#1500;&#1456;&#1502;&#1493;&#1468;&#1491;*talm&#363;d"instruction, learning", from a*root*lmd*"teach, study") is a central text of Rabbinic*Judaism. It is also traditionally referred to as*Shas*(&#1513;&#1524;&#1505, aHebrew*abbreviation of*shisha sedarim, the "six orders". The Talmud has two components. The first part is the*Mishnah*(Hebrew: &#1502;&#1513;&#1504;&#1492;, c. 200 CE), the written compendium of Judaism's*Oral Torah*(Torah meaning "Instruction", "Teaching" in Hebrew). The second part is theGemara*(c. 500 CE), an elucidation of the Mishnah and related*Tannaiticwritings that often ventures onto other subjects and expounds broadly on the*Jewish Bible.
> 
> 
> Talmud - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> And one more time, the story in the OP did not happen. You want to claim it happened, you prove it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sherry uses yet another thread to promote her insensate Jew hatreds
> 
> The islamist apologists continue to deflect accepting responsibility for what islamism allows in terms of child abuse. There are definite clues that there will be continuing abuse of female children in the Islamic Middle East as the very nature of islamist societies establish governments that are based upon religious affiliation to a 7th century Arab warlord.  Lets not forget, radical and fundamentalist Islam is easily spread around this region because ideologically these folks believe that 1.) Their religion is right (and all religions believe this, but Judaism doesnt export and Christianity long ago stopped using Crusades and genocide to export Islam is still 7 th century in this regard) and 2.) Islamic ideology has achieved only the ability to keep its adherents shackled to third-world status.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The thread addresses a made up story about a child marriage in Yemen that we have seen no evidence to support it even happened.
> 
> Zionists, like you,  have been using this story of unfortunate victims of child marriages in Yemen to attack Muslims and Islam.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> A little frothy there, Sherry. There are legitimate concerns regarding Islamic ideology and how it is practiced in Islamic countries. There are allowances made for sexual abuse of female children (child marriage), because it is in concert with the "perfect example for humanity. Moslems' religious perspectives are inclusive of their behavior. They are an integration of their politics and their religions and the traditions of Muhammud (swish).
> 
> You simply cant dismiss the religious connotations to their behavior. I incorporate them (and do so fairly), because the religions' inventor has established himself as the model for humanity.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is not about Islam, it is about the horrible plight of young children forced into marriages by customs in mostly poor countries like Yemen.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> It certainly is about Islam.  Clearly, people are an incorporation of their religious beliefs and practices. People get their religious beliefs, in this case, Islam, from _somewhere_. In this case, that somewhere is the Koran and the example set by the religions inventor.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is not about Jews.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You have attempted to make it about Judaism.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Get over yourself
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> .
> Give me a moment....
> 
> Ok. I'm over myself.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Everything is not about Jews and demonizing Muslims.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> It shouldn't be. But in your case, your OCD-like fascination with taking every opportunity to vilify Judaism has put you in a very dark place I'm happy not to be in.
Click to expand...


----------



## SherriMunnerlyn

MHunterB said:


> From the Wiki article:
> 
> The Orphans' Decree was introduced in Yemen and obligated the Zaydi state to take under its protection and to educate in Islamic ways any dhimmi (i.e. non-Muslim) child whose parents had died when he or she was a minor. First introduced or revived in the 17th century,[1] the Orphans' Decree was ignored during Ottoman rule (18721918), but was observed during the period of Imam Yahya (19181948).[2] According to one source, the decree has "no parallel in other countries".[3]
> 
> Although forced conversion is not widely recognized under Islamic laws, historian and Arabist Shelomo Dov Goitein believes that a forced conversion of orphans could have been justified by the revelation attributed to Muhammad that states: "Every person is born to the natural religion [Islam], and only his parents make a Jew or a Christian out of him." [1]



You know what, a law in effect from 1918 to 1948 really does not add much to explaining a custom of child marriages in Yemen that goes back in time hundreds of years.

The fact is child marriages in Yemen occur and have been embraced by people there of different religions and the explanation for it is that it is cultural to Yemen society.


----------



## SherriMunnerlyn

Hollie said:


> SherriMunnerlyn said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> Sherry uses yet another thread to promote her insensate Jew hatreds
> 
> The islamist apologists continue to deflect accepting responsibility for what islamism allows in terms of child abuse. There are definite clues that there will be continuing abuse of female children in the Islamic Middle East as the very nature of islamist societies establish &#8220;governments&#8221; that are based upon religious affiliation to a 7th century Arab warlord.  Let&#8217;s not forget, radical and fundamentalist Islam is easily spread around this region because ideologically these folks believe that 1.) Their religion is right (and all religions believe this, but Judaism doesn&#8217;t export and Christianity long ago stopped using Crusades and genocide to export&#8211; Islam is still 7 th century in this regard) and 2.) Islamic ideology has achieved only the ability to keep its adherents shackled to third-world status.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A little frothy there, Sherry. There are legitimate concerns regarding Islamic ideology and how it is practiced in Islamic countries. There are allowances made for sexual abuse of female children (child marriage), because it is in concert with the "perfect example for humanity. Moslems' religious perspectives are inclusive of their behavior. They are an integration of their politics and their religions and the traditions of Muhammud (swish).
> 
> You simply can&#8217;t dismiss the religious connotations to their behavior. I incorporate them (and do so fairly), because the religions' inventor has established himself as the model for humanity.
> 
> 
> 
> It certainly is about Islam.  Clearly, people are an incorporation of their religious beliefs and practices. People get their religious beliefs, in this case, Islam, from _somewhere_. In this case, that &#8220;somewhere&#8221; is the Koran and the example set by the religions inventor.
> 
> 
> 
> You have attempted to make it about Judaism.
> 
> 
> 
> .
> Give me a moment....
> 
> Ok. I'm over myself.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Everything is not about Jews and demonizing Muslims.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> It shouldn't be. But in your case, your OCD-like fascination with taking every opportunity to vilify Judaism has put you in a very dark place I'm happy not to be in.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I refuse to turn the misfortunes of children in Yemen into a Muslim Hate Fest.
> 
> What is happening in Yemen with child marriages is not about Islam.
> 
> It is about a human rights abuse primarily hurting young girls there.
> 
> I only brought up practices of nonMuslims outside Yemen with respect to child marriages to point out the Hypocrisy of posters in seeking to blame a religion, Islam, for child marriages. And in that context, I discussed child marriages among Mormons in America and among Jews in Israel.
Click to expand...


----------



## Hollie

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SherriMunnerlyn said:
> 
> 
> 
> A little frothy there, Sherry. There are legitimate concerns regarding Islamic ideology and how it is practiced in Islamic countries. There are allowances made for sexual abuse of female children (child marriage), because it is in concert with the "perfect example for humanity. Moslems' religious perspectives are inclusive of their behavior. They are an integration of their politics and their religions and the traditions of Muhammud (swish).
> 
> You simply cant dismiss the religious connotations to their behavior. I incorporate them (and do so fairly), because the religions' inventor has established himself as the model for humanity.
> 
> 
> 
> It certainly is about Islam.  Clearly, people are an incorporation of their religious beliefs and practices. People get their religious beliefs, in this case, Islam, from _somewhere_. In this case, that somewhere is the Koran and the example set by the religions inventor.
> 
> 
> 
> You have attempted to make it about Judaism.
> 
> 
> 
> .
> Give me a moment....
> 
> Ok. I'm over myself.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It shouldn't be. But in your case, your OCD-like fascination with taking every opportunity to vilify Judaism has put you in a very dark place I'm happy not to be in.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I refuse to turn the misfortunes of children in Yemen into a Muslim Hate Fest.
> 
> What is happening in Yemen with child marriages is not about Islam.
> 
> It is about a human rights abuse primarily hurting young girls there.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> As you do in every thread you enter, you use it as a vehicle to promote your Jew-hating attitudes... just as you did in this thread.
Click to expand...


----------



## Roudy

So your claim is, the prevalence of child marriages in Muslim countries and societies (especially traditional, religious ones), has NOTHING to do with Islam, or the fact that Mohammad married a 9 year old?  

Did you ask your Iranian friends why child marriage was allowed in Iran after the Islamists took over?  Was it because the parents "needed the money"? <LOL>


----------



## MHunterB

Iranian Women and Girls - Victims of Exploitation and Violence, Making the Harm Visible, Global Sexual Exploitation of Women and Girls, Speaking Out and Providing Services

Here is  an article discussing the situation of women in Iran under the mullahs.

And here is another on 'age of marriage' in Iran:
Iran moves to legalize marriage for girls under 10 years old

So the idea of having girls as young as 9 married off certainly appears to be given serious consideration by at least one member of Iran's legislature...


----------



## SherriMunnerlyn

Hollie said:


> SherriMunnerlyn said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> I refuse to turn the misfortunes of children in Yemen into a Muslim Hate Fest.
> 
> What is happening in Yemen with child marriages is not about Islam.
> 
> It is about a human rights abuse primarily hurting young girls there.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As you do in every thread you enter, you use it as a vehicle to promote your Jew-hating attitudes... just as you did in this thread.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The thread is not about Jews, it is about child marriage in Yemen.
> 
> Jimmy Carter and the Elders have been advocating against child marriages globally for many years now.
> 
> Child marriages are a problem in many developing countries.
Click to expand...


----------



## SherriMunnerlyn

Roudy said:


> So your claim is, the prevalence of child marriages in Muslim countries and societies (especially traditional, religious ones), has NOTHING to do with Islam, or the fact that Mohammad married a 9 year old?
> 
> Did you ask your Iranian friends why child marriage was allowed in Iran after the Islamists took over?  Was it because the parents "needed the money"? <LOL>



That is right, except I acknowledge conservative religious views may contribute to it, conservatism with respect to Islam, conservatism with respect to Hinduism, conservatism with respect to Christianity, conservatism with respect to Judaism.


Child marriages in Iran were an occurence before and after the Revolution.


----------



## Hossfly

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SherriMunnerlyn said:
> 
> 
> 
> As you do in every thread you enter, you use it as a vehicle to promote your Jew-hating attitudes... just as you did in this thread.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The thread is not about Jews, it is about child marriage in Yemen.
> 
> Jimmy Carter and the Elders have been advocating against child marriages globally for many years now.
> 
> Child marriages are a problem in many developing countries.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Yep, these countries have been developing over 1400 years and can't seem to make it out of the 7th century. A pity.
Click to expand...


----------



## SherriMunnerlyn

Pair Fundamentalism with religion in any society and you likely will see increased incidents of child marriages in some segments of that society, you see that even in countries where child marriages are illegal, to include the US and Israel.


----------



## SherriMunnerlyn

Ruby Jessop was just 14-years-old when she was*deemed 'sexually mature' by polygamous sect leader Warren Jeffs and*forced to marry her second cousin and step-brother and have sex with different men.She was held against her will at*the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints*for the next 12 years, in which time she bore six children and lived under the iron fist of the pervert leader.Ruby Jessop, now 26, managed to escape from the sick and twisted world of Warren Jeffs last month and has now been granted temporary custody of the children aged from two to ten, who were being held 'hostage' by the sect, her sister said.

Read more:*Ruby Jessop: The incredible story of child bride who escaped Warren Jeffs' polygamous sect | Mail Online us:*@MailOnline on Twitter*|*DailyMail on Facebook


----------



## SherriMunnerlyn

CNN airs special on Extremists in All 3 major religions!

by*IRFAN*on*NOVEMBER 2, 2007

Please send a Thank You note to CNN for airing a special report by Christiane Amanpour called &#8220;God&#8217;s Warriors&#8221; which is a 3 part special about religious extremists, fanatics and fundamentalists in all 3 major religions (Christianity, Judaism and Islam). I did watch the special on Islam, which was fairly balanced, and had seen parts of the one on Christianity, which was interesting. I had missed the one on Judaism, but was able to watch it last night as it was re-played (it originally aired back in August) and it was quite refreshing to see an expose on Jewish extremism and fundamentalism both here in the U.S. as well as in Israel, which was shown on mainstream U.S. media!They Interviewed fundamentalist Jewish settlers who are threaten Palestinians and constantly build on occupied land, in defiance of International Law. They interviewed Jewish Extremists and Terrorists who have planted bombs and killed innocent Palestianian children and families.Amanpour also interviewed several of the top ranking American Jewish Lobbyists, former President Jimmy Carter and other experts who have witnessed the great influence and pressure that the Jewish and Christian Zionist lobbyists put on the U.S. Congress and our leaders in support of Israel, and do not allow any kind of debate or questioning in U.S. Foreign Policy in the Middle East (they even showed footage of how the Jewish Lobby in the U.S. was able to put pressure on former President Bush Sr., who unsuccessfully tried to stop the illegal settlements, by putting a condition on loans to Israel, which they were able to stop from happening!)


CNN airs special on Extremists in All 3 major religions! | Media and Islam


----------



## Coyote

Roudy said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> 
> If it's cultural why was it not practiced in Iran during the Shah's time, but when Islamists took over, it became totally legal and acceptable?
> 
> An inconvenient truth.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Shah was a dictator and had the ability to force social change on a medievil culture in much the same way the British ended the practice of sati in India.  That didn't necessarily stop it in the provinces and rural districts where it most likely continued quietly.  As to why it resurfaced - because Iranian Islamists represent the most fundamentalist cult of Islam and child marriage is in accordance with that fundamentalist approach.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Yes, and when the Islamists came to power they allowed it, and cited Islamic reasons for it. Not "cultural".  You never get it right. * Child marriage was never a "cultural thing" before the Shah*.
Click to expand...


Really?  Care to support that statement?  I suspect child marriages pre-date Islam in Persia.


----------



## MHunterB

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> MHunterB said:
> 
> 
> 
> From the Wiki article:
> 
> The Orphans' Decree was introduced in Yemen and obligated the Zaydi state to take under its protection and to educate in Islamic ways any dhimmi (i.e. non-Muslim) child whose parents had died when he or she was a minor. *First introduced or revived in the 17th century,[*1] the Orphans' Decree was ignored during Ottoman rule (1872&#8211;1918), but was observed during the period of Imam Yahya (1918&#8211;1948).[2] According to one source, the decree has "no parallel in other countries".[3]
> 
> Although forced conversion is not widely recognized under Islamic laws, historian and Arabist Shelomo Dov Goitein believes that a forced conversion of orphans could have been justified by the revelation attributed to Muhammad that states: "Every person is born to the natural religion [Islam], and only his parents make a Jew or a Christian out of him." [1]
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You know what, a law in effect from 1918 to 1948 really does not add much to explaining a custom of child marriages in Yemen that goes back in time hundreds of years.
> 
> The fact is child marriages in Yemen occur and have been embraced by people there of different religions and the explanation for it is that it is cultural to Yemen society.
Click to expand...


You know what, that reading comprehension problem of yours is getting a lot worse.  The article clearly states this law was in effect *from the 1600's on* - with the exception of the Ottoman hegemony.  

Post-1948, Yemen has been ruled by whom, exactly?  An exceedingly weak and ineffective 'government' - and many tribal warlords (like Somalia), who each enforce their version of 'shari'a' as the law.  For those who've forgotten - ALL human activity except a few 'survival reflexes' is due to culture.  INCLUDING RELIGION.  

The fact is that sherriKKKins is an ignorant lying hypocrite who is trying to pontificate about 'culture' when she has no idea what any of the facts are.

She's so in bondage to her bigotry, that takes precedence for her over any author, any number of reports, any amount of first-hand knowledge or experience.   

I'm beginning to think the only knowledge sherriKKKins has of 'culture' is her athlete's foot fungus.


----------



## SherriMunnerlyn

Breslov rabbi discovered at fault of abusing his 6 wives, child sexy assault, slavery.

Jerusalem*:*Israel*| Sep 11, 2013 

Breslov rabbi was found at fault of numerous felony misdeeds, encompassing abusing his six wives, sexually assaulting his young kids, and slavery, according to court proceedings in Israel.The Jerusalem locality Court convicted on Tuesday the head of a Breslov sect and his aide, who were arrested and ascribed, two years before.His family encompasses his six wives and dozens of young kids. The head of the sect assured women to join his family, but one time they did, he turned their lives into torment, with personal, sexy and mental abuse, both against them and against their children.According to court articles, D., was suspect of retaining persons in slavery, bodily, mentally and sexually mishandling children and their mothers, illicit detention, rape, and sodomy.D. glimpsed himself as the successor of Rabbi Nachman of Uman, and the individual selected to disperse his doctrine in the world.*He got more and more women to join his cult after assuring them of his exceptional powers.D. dwelled with his family of six wives and dozens of young kids, in luxury suites in Jerusalem and Tiberias.Two men travelling to the rabbi&#8217;s were furthermore accused of committing serious sexy infringements and aggression, under the personal instructions of D.*throughout a seek of the rabbi&#8217;s dwellings, policeman discovered electric shockers, twisted cords, and rods, as well as health notes from distinct clinics over the country, pointing to personal wounds suffered by the children.

Breslov rabbi discovered at fault of abusing his 6 wives, child sexy assault, slavery.

A Rabbi is convicted in Israel, they do not even release his name.


----------



## MHunterB

Child Marriage Facts and Figures | ICRW

Note that the 'authorities' in Afghanistan, Iran, and some other nations are not very forthcoming with information on this or many associated topics.

When we look at the 'top 20' - all are in the Eastern Hemisphere, except Nicaragua.  Actually, many of the nations appear to have a hefty 'Marxist' influence.  

Aside from 'just' being poor - all these nations seem to have very patriarchal societies in common, and are very 'tribal', rather than having some level of 'national' culture.  (what do I mean by that?  In the US we have a very well-developed sense of 'American' identity which includes a slew of holidays that Americans of virtually every subculture enthusiastically participate in.  Plus we have parades for whatever excuse we can find: it seems we take turns celebrating different groups' 'Pride Day' or similar.  Americans seem to make a point of celebrating across our 'tribal' lines....)

We can see endless examples of how such tribalism retards the development of any nation - and we see echoes of that tribalism in the US, where we usually identify it correctly as 'racist' (wrong word, but right idea).

It's not 'conservatism'.  The Taliban or the FLDS are not 'conservative'.  They are not 'fundamentalist'.  They are reactionary, and they are also of the conviction that *female human beings are the property of men* - or ought to be. 

I am inclined to wonder what factors might be at work re: Nicaragua.  I'm wondering if it's a partly a result of economic chaos brought on by heavy-handed 'central planning' that's a feature of many Marxist governments....   Certainly the more 'revolutionary' a government proclaims itself to be, the more it oppresses women (does not matter if it's 'Marxist' or 'religious' or 'socialist' or what!) and abuses them as 'property'.


----------



## MHunterB

Sherri, your own posts are proving you are a liar and a hypocrite.

Have you *no* shame?


----------



## Hollie

Sherry is on another Jew-hatin' tirade.

Jihad is both personal communal.


----------



## SherriMunnerlyn

MHunterB said:


> SherriMunnerlyn said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MHunterB said:
> 
> 
> 
> From the Wiki article:
> 
> The Orphans' Decree was introduced in Yemen and obligated the Zaydi state to take under its protection and to educate in Islamic ways any dhimmi (i.e. non-Muslim) child whose parents had died when he or she was a minor. *First introduced or revived in the 17th century,[*1] the Orphans' Decree was ignored during Ottoman rule (1872&#8211;1918), but was observed during the period of Imam Yahya (1918&#8211;1948).[2] According to one source, the decree has "no parallel in other countries".[3]
> 
> Although forced conversion is not widely recognized under Islamic laws, historian and Arabist Shelomo Dov Goitein believes that a forced conversion of orphans could have been justified by the revelation attributed to Muhammad that states: "Every person is born to the natural religion [Islam], and only his parents make a Jew or a Christian out of him." [1]
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You know what, a law in effect from 1918 to 1948 really does not add much to explaining a custom of child marriages in Yemen that goes back in time hundreds of years.
> 
> The fact is child marriages in Yemen occur and have been embraced by people there of different religions and the explanation for it is that it is cultural to Yemen society.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You know what, that reading comprehension problem of yours is getting a lot worse.  The article clearly states this law was in effect *from the 1600's on* - with the exception of the Ottoman hegemony.
> 
> Post-1948, Yemen has been ruled by whom, exactly?  An exceedingly weak and ineffective 'government' - and many tribal warlords (like Somalia), who each enforce their version of 'shari'a' as the law.  For those who've forgotten - ALL human activity except a few 'survival reflexes' is due to culture.  INCLUDING RELIGION.
> 
> The fact is that sherriKKKins is an ignorant lying hypocrite who is trying to pontificate about 'culture' when she has no idea what any of the facts are.
> 
> She's so in bondage to her bigotry, that takes precedence for her over any author, any number of reports, any amount of first-hand knowledge or experience.
> 
> I'm beginning to think the only knowledge sherriKKKins has of 'culture' is her athlete's foot fungus.
Click to expand...


We do not live in the 1600s, we are discussing child marriages today, in 2013. 

And the statements I made reflect that we are discussing child marriages today. 

A practice that ended in 1948  says little of a custom that began long ago and continues today. 

Learn to read and comprehend English and stop putting words in my mouth I never said.

My position is really quiet simple, I maintain child marriages in Yemen are cultural and span across all segments of the society, and across people from all religions.

The existence of Islam is not the reason child marriages exist in Yemen.


----------



## SherriMunnerlyn

Hollie said:


> Sherry is on another Jew-hatin' tirade.
> 
> Jihad is both personal communal.



The issue is child marriages.

Get over yourself.


----------



## SherriMunnerlyn

MHunterB said:


> Sherri, your own posts are proving you are a liar and a hypocrite.
> 
> Have you *no* shame?



lol

You just cannot stop with the personal attacks and address the issues, poor little girl!


----------



## SherriMunnerlyn

MHunterB said:


> Child Marriage Facts and Figures | ICRW
> .



From your source:

&#9726;No one religious affiliation was associated with child marriage, according to a 2007 ICRW study. Rather, a variety of religions are associated with child marriage in countries throughout the world

Child Marriage Hot Spots


Rank Country Name % girls married before 18 
1 Niger 75 
2 Chad 68 
3 Central African Republic 68 
4 Bangladesh  66 
5 Guinea 63 
6 Mozambique  56 
7 Mali 55 
8 Burkina Faso 52 
9 South Sudan 52 
10 Malawi  50 
11 Madagascar 48 
12 Eritrea 47 
13 India 47 
14 Somalia 45 
15 Sierra Leone 44 
16 Zambia 42 
17 Dominican Republic 41 
18 Ethiopia  41 
19 Nepal  41 
20 Nicaragua 41

Yemen is not even in the top 20 countries in your list.


----------



## Jos

British haredi man charged with child sexual abuse attempts to get into Israel using phony passport, seeks citizenship under law allowing all Jews to immigrate to Jewish state



> Does the Law of Return trump international law? This question will have to be ruled on by the High Court of Justice, following an attempt by an ultra-Orthodox Jew from England, who was charged with *sexual abuse of children*, to find asylum in Israel.


Law of Return ? or long arm of law? - Israel News, Ynetnews



> "Now therefore, kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman who has known man intimately. 18"But all the girls who have not known man intimately, spare for yourselves.&#8230;


http://biblehub.com/numbers/31-17.htm


----------



## Coyote

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> MHunterB said:
> 
> 
> 
> Child Marriage Facts and Figures | ICRW
> .
> 
> 
> 
> 
> From your source:
> 
> &#9726;No one religious affiliation was associated with child marriage, according to a 2007 ICRW study. Rather, a variety of religions are associated with child marriage in countries throughout the world
> 
> Child Marriage Hot Spots
> 
> 
> Rank Country Name % girls married before 18
> 1 Niger 75
> 2 Chad 68
> 3 Central African Republic 68
> 4 Bangladesh  66
> 5 Guinea 63
> 6 Mozambique  56
> 7 Mali 55
> 8 Burkina Faso 52
> 9 South Sudan 52
> 10 Malawi  50
> 11 Madagascar 48
> 12 Eritrea 47
> 13 India 47
> 14 Somalia 45
> 15 Sierra Leone 44
> 16 Zambia 42
> 17 Dominican Republic 41
> 18 Ethiopia  41
> 19 Nepal  41
> 20 Nicaragua 41
> 
> Yemen is not even in the top 20 countries in your list.
Click to expand...


I think - Marge is not arguing against you here Sherri.  Not totally.  Her post, which you quoted from - talked about culture, including religion as part of that culture as being partly causative.  You can't always seperate culture from religion.

The fact that so many non-Muslim countries factor into this list is indicative that religion isn't a primary factor though.


----------



## Coyote

Jos said:


> British haredi man charged with child sexual abuse attempts to get into Israel using phony passport, seeks citizenship under law allowing all Jews to immigrate to Jewish state
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Does the Law of Return trump international law? This question will have to be ruled on by the High Court of Justice, following an attempt by an ultra-Orthodox Jew from England, who was charged with *sexual abuse of children*, to find asylum in Israel.
> 
> 
> 
> Law of Return ? or long arm of law? - Israel News, Ynetnews
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "Now therefore, kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman who has known man intimately. 18"But all the girls who have not known man intimately, spare for yourselves.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Numbers 31:17 Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man,
Click to expand...


Child abuse and pedophilia occurs in all societies Jos...


----------



## Coyote

MHunterB said:


> Child Marriage Facts and Figures | ICRW
> 
> Note that the 'authorities' in Afghanistan, Iran, and some other nations are not very forthcoming with information on this or many associated topics.
> 
> When we look at the 'top 20' - all are in the Eastern Hemisphere, except Nicaragua.  Actually, many of the nations appear to have a hefty 'Marxist' influence.
> 
> Aside from 'just' being poor - all these nations seem to have very patriarchal societies in common, and are very 'tribal', rather than having some level of 'national' culture.  (what do I mean by that?  In the US we have a very well-developed sense of 'American' identity which includes a slew of holidays that Americans of virtually every subculture enthusiastically participate in.  Plus we have parades for whatever excuse we can find: it seems we take turns celebrating different groups' 'Pride Day' or similar.  Americans seem to make a point of celebrating across our 'tribal' lines....)
> 
> We can see endless examples of how such tribalism retards the development of any nation - and we see echoes of that tribalism in the US, where we usually identify it correctly as 'racist' (wrong word, but right idea).
> 
> *It's not 'conservatism'.  The Taliban or the FLDS are not 'conservative'.  They are not 'fundamentalist'.  *They are reactionary, and they are also of the conviction that *female human beings are the property of men* - or ought to be.
> 
> I am inclined to wonder what factors might be at work re: Nicaragua.  I'm wondering if it's a partly a result of economic chaos brought on by heavy-handed 'central planning' that's a feature of many Marxist governments....   Certainly the more 'revolutionary' a government proclaims itself to be, the more it oppresses women (does not matter if it's 'Marxist' or 'religious' or 'socialist' or what!) and abuses them as 'property'.



Why would you say they aren't "fundamentalist"?  They strike me as just that...most fundamentalist interpretations are very anti-woman.


----------



## Jos

Coyote said:


> Jos said:
> 
> 
> 
> British haredi man charged with child sexual abuse attempts to get into Israel using phony passport, seeks citizenship under law allowing all Jews to immigrate to Jewish state
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Does the Law of Return trump international law? This question will have to be ruled on by the High Court of Justice, following an attempt by an ultra-Orthodox Jew from England, who was charged with *sexual abuse of children*, to find asylum in Israel.
> 
> 
> 
> Law of Return ? or long arm of law? - Israel News, Ynetnews
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "Now therefore, kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman who has known man intimately. 18"But all the girls who have not known man intimately, spare for yourselves.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Numbers 31:17 Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man,
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Child abuse and pedophilia occurs in all societies Jos...
Click to expand...


Some here would have us believe it  is a Muslim thing


> Jewish immigration activist arrested on child pornography charges
> 
> Read more: Jewish immigration activist arrested on child pornography charges | Jewish Telegraphic Agency


----------



## SherriMunnerlyn

This is data reported on Wikipedia.


Percentage of women aged 2024 who were married/in union before the age of 18 is listed in the table below. The data from ICRW, if traced all the way to the ultimate sources, is from surveys that are 10 to 20 years old. The UN data is between 10 to 15 years old.


Rank
 per ICRW data

Country

% girls married
 before 18
 (ICRW data)[133]

 % girls married
 before 18
 (UN data)[134]


1  Niger 75 62 
2  Chad 72 49 
3  Bangladesh 66 48 
4  Guinea 63 46 
5  Central African Republic 61 42 
6  Mali 55 50 
7  Mozambique 52 47 
8  Malawi 50 37 
9  Madagascar 48 34 
10  Sierra Leone 48 47 
11  Burkina Faso 48 35 
12  India 47 30 
13  Eritrea 47 38 
14  Uganda 46 32 
15  Somalia 45 38 
16  Nicaragua 43 32 
17  Zambia 42 24 
18  Ethiopia 41 30 
19    Nepal 41 40 
20  Dominican Republic 40 29


Child marriage - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


----------



## SherriMunnerlyn

Coyote said:


> SherriMunnerlyn said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MHunterB said:
> 
> 
> 
> Child Marriage Facts and Figures | ICRW
> .
> 
> 
> 
> 
> From your source:
> 
> &#9726;No one religious affiliation was associated with child marriage, according to a 2007 ICRW study. Rather, a variety of religions are associated with child marriage in countries throughout the world
> 
> Child Marriage Hot Spots
> 
> 
> Rank Country Name % girls married before 18
> 1 Niger 75
> 2 Chad 68
> 3 Central African Republic 68
> 4 Bangladesh  66
> 5 Guinea 63
> 6 Mozambique  56
> 7 Mali 55
> 8 Burkina Faso 52
> 9 South Sudan 52
> 10 Malawi  50
> 11 Madagascar 48
> 12 Eritrea 47
> 13 India 47
> 14 Somalia 45
> 15 Sierra Leone 44
> 16 Zambia 42
> 17 Dominican Republic 41
> 18 Ethiopia  41
> 19 Nepal  41
> 20 Nicaragua 41
> 
> Yemen is not even in the top 20 countries in your list.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I think - Marge is not arguing against you here Sherri.  Not totally.  Her post, which you quoted from - talked about culture, including religion as part of that culture as being partly causative.  You can't always seperate culture from religion.
> 
> The fact that so many non-Muslim countries factor into this list is indicative that religion isn't a primary factor though.
Click to expand...


I am just trying to nail down what is actually set forth in this report, to be distinquished from Marge's commentary on the report.


----------



## S.J.

Jos said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jos said:
> 
> 
> 
> British haredi man charged with child sexual abuse attempts to get into Israel using phony passport, seeks citizenship under law allowing all Jews to immigrate to Jewish state
> 
> 
> Law of Return ? or long arm of law? - Israel News, Ynetnews
> 
> 
> Numbers 31:17 Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man,
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Child abuse and pedophilia occurs in all societies Jos...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Some here would have us believe it  is a Muslim thing
> 
> 
> 
> Jewish immigration activist arrested on child pornography charges
> 
> Read more: Jewish immigration activist arrested on child pornography charges | Jewish Telegraphic Agency
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...

You find a few scattered examples of child marriage that aren't muslims and proclaim it isn't a "muslim thing", when in fact the overwhelming majority of offenders are muslims.  You think you can sell that bullshit?


----------



## Coyote

S.J. said:


> Jos said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> Child abuse and pedophilia occurs in all societies Jos...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Some here would have us believe it  is a Muslim thing
> 
> 
> 
> Jewish immigration activist arrested on child pornography charges
> 
> Read more: Jewish immigration activist arrested on child pornography charges | Jewish Telegraphic Agency
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You find a few scattered examples of child marriage that aren't muslims and proclaim it isn't a "muslim thing", when in fact the overwhelming majority of offenders are muslims.  You think you can sell that bullshit?
Click to expand...


They aren't a few "scattered" examples that aren't Muslim.  Amongst the top ten countries with the highest rates of child marriages Christian dominant countries out number Muslim ones.  The list of 20 nations where child marriages are a big problem cross the faith spectrum.


----------



## toastman

S.J. said:


> Jos said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> Child abuse and pedophilia occurs in all societies Jos...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Some here would have us believe it  is a Muslim thing
> 
> 
> 
> Jewish immigration activist arrested on child pornography charges
> 
> Read more: Jewish immigration activist arrested on child pornography charges | Jewish Telegraphic Agency
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You find a few scattered examples of child marriage that aren't muslims and proclaim it isn't a "muslim thing", when in fact the overwhelming majority of offenders are muslims.  You think you can sell that bullshit?
Click to expand...


It's called desperation.


----------



## Coyote

toastman said:


> S.J. said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jos said:
> 
> 
> 
> Some here would have us believe it  is a Muslim thing
> 
> 
> 
> You find a few scattered examples of child marriage that aren't muslims and proclaim it isn't a "muslim thing", when in fact the overwhelming majority of offenders are muslims.  You think you can sell that bullshit?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> It's called desperation.
Click to expand...


No, it's presenting the facts.  Looking at the listing of countries where child marriage is a problem makes it obvious that it isn't "a few scattered examples of child marriage that aren't muslims"

It's there in reference after reference


----------



## irosie91

It might be hard to believe----but there are some people who are SOOO STUUUPID---that 
they argue--------If there is a country with   90%   blue people and   10%   green people---
and -------50 %   of the people in that country are---------obese----that means that  45 %  of the blue people are obese and 5 %  of the green people are obese.         Such stupidty 
paid my tuition--------I tutored really dull kids thru   high school geometry.      They got 
thru on my SWEAT-------but they remained stupid.     I meet them again-------here


----------



## MHunterB

I see I didn't exactly make myself clear.  OK, 'fundamentalist' doesn't always mean 'raving wild-eyed lunatics out to force their ways on everyone else' - a very obvious example of this would be the Amish/Mennonite/Hutterite and associated communities.  Or the super tiny community of Ebionites who live in South Jersey (NJ, USA).  Or even the FLDS, who tend to leave everyone else alone and want to be left alone as well.

THAT's what I was trying to convey by stating that the Taliban and etc are not 'fundamentalists'  - that 'fundamentalism' alone doesn't describe their views, it doesn't truly describe their behavior.


----------



## irosie91

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SherriMunnerlyn said:
> 
> 
> 
> From your source:
> 
> &#9726;No one religious affiliation was associated with child marriage, according to a 2007 ICRW study. Rather, a variety of religions are associated with child marriage in countries throughout the world
> 
> Child Marriage Hot Spots
> 
> 
> Rank Country Name % girls married before 18
> 1 Niger 75
> 2 Chad 68
> 3 Central African Republic 68
> 4 Bangladesh  66
> 5 Guinea 63
> 6 Mozambique  56
> 7 Mali 55
> 8 Burkina Faso 52
> 9 South Sudan 52
> 10 Malawi  50
> 11 Madagascar 48
> 12 Eritrea 47
> 13 India 47
> 14 Somalia 45
> 15 Sierra Leone 44
> 16 Zambia 42
> 17 Dominican Republic 41
> 18 Ethiopia  41
> 19 Nepal  41
> 20 Nicaragua 41
> 
> Yemen is not even in the top 20 countries in your list.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think - Marge is not arguing against you here Sherri.  Not totally.  Her post, which you quoted from - talked about culture, including religion as part of that culture as being partly causative.  You can't always seperate culture from religion.
> 
> The fact that so many non-Muslim countries factor into this list is indicative that religion isn't a primary factor though.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I am just trying to nail down what is actually set forth in this report, to be distinquished from Marge's commentary on the report.
Click to expand...




you did not come close to  "NAILING"  anything-----you did not even define  "child marriage"-----the subject of this thread is a 40 year old  man  banging an eight year old 
to death-------not whether or not two sixteen year old kids can marry,       A REAL study on 
old mean banging babies to death  would take LOTS MORE DATA than you have


----------



## MHunterB

Going back to 'Yemen isn't on the top 20 list':

That list depends on what is *reported* to those seeking to gather information.  In quite a few nations, that is apt to be difficult - the least of problems is the difficulty of travel and 'locals' who are non-cooperative.  In many 'tribal' areas where 'national' law doesn't operate, that lack of cooperation might be anything up to murder simply for being an 'outsider' and asking questions.

Anything which touches upon women's sexuality is apt to be distorted in such overly-patriarchal societies - researchers may not even be allowed to talk directly with women unless some adult male relative is present due to their societal rules.  Not  to mention that the men get annoyed about people being more interested in the activities of females than of themselves....


----------



## irosie91

MHunterB said:


> Going back to 'Yemen isn't on the top 20 list':
> 
> That list depends on what is *reported* to those seeking to gather information.  In quite a few nations, that is apt to be difficult - the least of problems is the difficulty of travel and 'locals' who are non-cooperative.  In many 'tribal' areas where 'national' law doesn't operate, that lack of cooperation might be anything up to murder simply for being an 'outsider' and asking questions.
> 
> Anything which touches upon women's sexuality is apt to be distorted in such overly-patriarchal societies - researchers may not even be allowed to talk directly with women unless some adult male relative is present due to their societal rules.  Not  to mention that the men get annoyed about people being more interested in the activities of females than of themselves....





Marge----thanks------you DID IT FOR ME           CANDID is simply not   yemen.....
EVERYTHING is kept  a mystery and everything is a lie.        A story which ----cannot be found on the 
internet.      My own hubby was born in  ADEN----which is just about the MOST 
civilized    city in Yemen  -------his birth was registered.     fast forward  20 +   years---
he is a student in London---------Well ----he COULD legally demand  British citizenship 
based on being born in the     "KINGDOM"        He does have a few documents-----so 
silly baby that he is he hands them to the Yemeni consulate requesting a confirmation 
of his birth city----------guess what------they take the papers-----he never sees them 
again and the country denies it  EVER HEARD OF HIM


----------



## irosie91

getting back to  "reporting"            ---muslim countries tend to report -----
NO MENTAL ILLNESS and ---virtually no crime----and most of all     NO or almost 
no AIDS 

Medical School graduates from Muslim countries I have known-----were taught that 
  "MENTAL ILLNESS IS DUE TO KUFR"      (kufr is disbelief in the koran)     Some of them 
  seem to want to believe it.

For years   SAUDI ARABIA reported   "NO HIV" ------lol ------when they finally 
broke down and admitted the truth----they attributed the problem entirely 
to "FOREIGN WORKERS"


----------



## Roudy

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> 
> So your claim is, the prevalence of child marriages in Muslim countries and societies (especially traditional, religious ones), has NOTHING to do with Islam, or the fact that Mohammad married a 9 year old?
> 
> Did you ask your Iranian friends why child marriage was allowed in Iran after the Islamists took over?  Was it because the parents "needed the money"? <LOL>
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That is right, except I acknowledge conservative religious views may contribute to it, conservatism with respect to Islam, conservatism with respect to Hinduism, conservatism with respect to Christianity, conservatism with respect to Judaism.
> 
> 
> Child marriages in Iran were an occurence before and after the Revolution.
Click to expand...

No they weren't I lived in Iran before the revolution.  It was a crime and you'd get punished severely for it, like execution or life imprisonment.  You as usual are lying.  It is almost NEVER a "cultural" matter with Muslims.  They almost exclusively live by what their religion says. And their religion sanctions child marriage.  The only thing in the way of religious laws are secular laws, which were implemented by the Shah.


----------



## Roudy

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> This is data reported on Wikipedia.
> 
> 
> Percentage of women aged 2024 who were married/in union before the age of 18 is listed in the table below. The data from ICRW, if traced all the way to the ultimate sources, is from surveys that are 10 to 20 years old. The UN data is between 10 to 15 years old.
> 
> 
> Rank
> per ICRW data
> 
> Country
> 
> % girls married
> before 18
> (ICRW data)[133]
> 
> % girls married
> before 18
> (UN data)[134]
> 
> 
> 1  Niger 75 62
> 2  Chad 72 49
> 3  Bangladesh 66 48
> 4  Guinea 63 46
> 5  Central African Republic 61 42
> 6  Mali 55 50
> 7  Mozambique 52 47
> 8  Malawi 50 37
> 9  Madagascar 48 34
> 10  Sierra Leone 48 47
> 11  Burkina Faso 48 35
> 12  India 47 30
> 13  Eritrea 47 38
> 14  Uganda 46 32
> 15  Somalia 45 38
> 16  Nicaragua 43 32
> 17  Zambia 42 24
> 18  Ethiopia 41 30
> 19    Nepal 41 40
> 20  Dominican Republic 40 29
> 
> 
> Child marriage - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Post the rest of what wikipedia says then, AFRAID OF THE TRUTH?

States with lower marriage age limits saw higher percentages of child marriages.[15] This correlation between higher age of marriage in civil law and observed frequency of child marriages breaks down in countries with Islam as the state religion. In Islamic nations, many countries do not allow child marriage of girls under their civil code of laws. But, the state recognized Sharia religious laws and courts in all these nations have the power to override the civil code, and often do. UNICEF reports that the top five nations in the world with highest observed child marriage rates - Niger (75%), Chad (72%), Mali (71%), Bangladesh (64%), Guinea (63%) - are all Islamic majority countries.[10]

The Child Marriage Restraint Act, 1929 was passed during the tenure of British rule on pre-partition India. It forbade the marriage of a male younger than 21 or a female younger than 18 for Hindus, Buddhists, Christians and most people of India. However, this law did not and currently does not apply to India's 165 million Muslim population, and only applies to India's Hindu, Christian, Jain, Sikh and other religious minorities. This link of law and religion was formalized by the British colonial rule with the Muslim personal laws codified in the Indian Muslim Personal Law (Shariat) Application Act of 1937. The age at which India's Muslim girl can legally marry, according to this Muslim Personal Law, is 9 years, and can be lower if her guardian (wali) decides she is sexually mature.[70][71] Over the last 25 years, All India Muslim Personal Law Board and other Muslim civil organizations have actively opposed India-wide laws and enforcement action against child marriages; they have argued that Indian Muslim families have a religious right to marry a girl when her age is 15 or even 12.[72] Several states of India claim specially high child marriage rates in their Muslim and tribal communities.[73] India, with a population of over 1.2 billion, has the world's highest total number of child marriages. It is a significant social issue.


----------



## SherriMunnerlyn

L.v 





MHunterB said:


> Going back to 'Yemen isn't on the top 20 list':
> 
> That list depends on what is *reported* to those seeking to gather information.  In quite a few nations, that is apt to be difficult - the least of problems is the difficulty of travel and 'locals' who are non-cooperative.  In many 'tribal' areas where 'national' law doesn't operate, that lack of cooperation might be anything up to murder simply for being an 'outsider' and asking questions.
> 
> Anything which touches upon women's sexuality is apt to be distorted in such overly-patriarchal societies - researchers may not even be allowed to talk directly with women unless some adult male relative is present due to their societal rules.  Not  to mention that the men get annoyed about people being more interested in the activities of females than of themselves....



Two lists were posted and neither shows Yemen in the top 20 nations for nations where child marriages are most commonly practiced.


----------



## toastman

Hahaha ! Nice one Roudy. You just owned Sherri !

What a biased %&$%%$^$ she is !

Notice how whenever something negative that a Muslim(s) did is presented here, she does whatever she can to defend them and when she gets desperate, she will involve Jews or Israel hahahaha.


----------



## toastman

Oh and Roudy, quote my post because Sherri has me on ignore and I want her to see what I wrote haha thanks


----------



## SherriMunnerlyn

Roudy said:


> SherriMunnerlyn said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> 
> So your claim is, the prevalence of child marriages in Muslim countries and societies (especially traditional, religious ones), has NOTHING to do with Islam, or the fact that Mohammad married a 9 year old?
> 
> Did you ask your Iranian friends why child marriage was allowed in Iran after the Islamists took over?  Was it because the parents "needed the money"? <LOL>
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That is right, except I acknowledge conservative religious views may contribute to it, conservatism with respect to Islam, conservatism with respect to Hinduism, conservatism with respect to Christianity, conservatism with respect to Judaism.
> 
> 
> Child marriages in Iran were an occurence before and after the Revolution.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> No they weren't I lived in Iran before the revolution.  It was a crime and you'd get punished severely for it, like execution or life imprisonment.  You as usual are lying.  It is almost NEVER a "cultural" matter with Muslims.  They almost exclusively live by what their religion says. And their religion sanctions child marriage.  The only thing in the way of religious laws are secular laws, which were implemented by the Shah.
Click to expand...


My husband lived in Iran, too, he grew up there, in Broujerd. And he tells me child marriages occurred in villages in rural areas before the Revolution.  They perhaps have increased since then, I have read invonsistent data on that question,.but the religion of the people has not changed, the majority remain Muslims.


----------



## SherriMunnerlyn

Child Marriage in the Context of Shia Iran

"Early marriage, which has been traditionally practiced in Iran , is to a large extent also endorsed and encouraged by Sharia Law. In spite of a considerable reduction in the number of early marriages, they continue to be practiced under various guises. Policies devised to reduce these marriages often pose more questions than they answer, while their implications lead to unforeseen reactions and often result in even more undesirable consequences for all concerned. Early marriage, itself a relatively new concept, is associated with multiple pregnancies. International agencies regard it as harmful to the health, and especially reproductive health, of young women under the age of fifteen.The mortality rate of mothers under the age of fifteen is five times higher than those over twenty year olds. Girls under the age of eighteen are classified as children by international conventions. However, when the Iranian delegation to the Convention of the Rights of the Child (CRC 1998) signed the agreement that defined a child as &#8220;anybody under the age of eighteen&#8221;, it reserved the right not to implement the clauses which were considered against the Islamic ideology. Child marriage is one such area and its practice continues. In reality, the implementation of most of the clauses of the above Convention involves major difficulties and clashes with local laws, traditions and customs. At the same time, most studies concerned with early marriage only address its negative impact and focus on girls from the perspective of &#8216;human rights' and &#8216;violence against women'. Such an approach leaves out the wider social and cultural context within which these marriages take place, which also involves young boys and affects the larger family network; i.e. there is a general neglect to carry out a gender analysis of this trend."

Institute of Social and Cultural Anthropology: Child Marriage in the Context of Shia Iran


----------



## Bloodrock44

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SherriMunnerlyn said:
> 
> 
> 
> That is right, except I acknowledge conservative religious views may contribute to it, conservatism with respect to Islam, conservatism with respect to Hinduism, conservatism with respect to Christianity, conservatism with respect to Judaism.
> 
> 
> Child marriages in Iran were an occurence before and after the Revolution.
> 
> 
> 
> No they weren't I lived in Iran before the revolution.  It was a crime and you'd get punished severely for it, like execution or life imprisonment.  You as usual are lying.  It is almost NEVER a "cultural" matter with Muslims.  They almost exclusively live by what their religion says. And their religion sanctions child marriage.  The only thing in the way of religious laws are secular laws, which were implemented by the Shah.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> My husband lived in Iran, too, he grew up there, in Broujerd. And he tells me child marriages occurred in villages in rural areas before the Revolution.  They perhaps have increased since then, but the religion of the people has not changed, the majority remain Muslims.
Click to expand...


Thanks for revealing this tidbit of information ShiaSherri. Now we know the real deal.


----------



## Roudy

Coyote said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> The Shah was a dictator and had the ability to force social change on a medievil culture in much the same way the British ended the practice of sati in India.  That didn't necessarily stop it in the provinces and rural districts where it most likely continued quietly.  As to why it resurfaced - because Iranian Islamists represent the most fundamentalist cult of Islam and child marriage is in accordance with that fundamentalist approach.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, and when the Islamists came to power they allowed it, and cited Islamic reasons for it. Not "cultural".  You never get it right. * Child marriage was never a "cultural thing" before the Shah*.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Really?  Care to support that statement?  I suspect child marriages pre-date Islam in Persia.
Click to expand...

I don't have to. I lived it, and previous generations did as well. Very Young girls would get married in the past, as was common, but never at the specific age of 9 coinciding with Aisha's age.


----------



## Roudy

Bloodrock44 said:


> SherriMunnerlyn said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> 
> No they weren't I lived in Iran before the revolution.  It was a crime and you'd get punished severely for it, like execution or life imprisonment.  You as usual are lying.  It is almost NEVER a "cultural" matter with Muslims.  They almost exclusively live by what their religion says. And their religion sanctions child marriage.  The only thing in the way of religious laws are secular laws, which were implemented by the Shah.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> My husband lived in Iran, too, he grew up there, in Broujerd. And he tells me child marriages occurred in villages in rural areas before the Revolution.  They perhaps have increased since then, but the religion of the people has not changed, the majority remain Muslims.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Thanks for revealing this tidbit of information ShiaSherri. Now we know the real deal.
Click to expand...

Still refuses to admit that Islam is the cause. LOL


----------



## Roudy

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SherriMunnerlyn said:
> 
> 
> 
> That is right, except I acknowledge conservative religious views may contribute to it, conservatism with respect to Islam, conservatism with respect to Hinduism, conservatism with respect to Christianity, conservatism with respect to Judaism.
> 
> 
> Child marriages in Iran were an occurence before and after the Revolution.
> 
> 
> 
> No they weren't I lived in Iran before the revolution.  It was a crime and you'd get punished severely for it, like execution or life imprisonment.  You as usual are lying.  It is almost NEVER a "cultural" matter with Muslims.  They almost exclusively live by what their religion says. And their religion sanctions child marriage.  The only thing in the way of religious laws are secular laws, which were implemented by the Shah.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> My husband lived in Iran, too, he grew up there, in Broujerd. And he tells me child marriages occurred in villages in rural areas before the Revolution.  They perhaps have increased since then, I have read invonsistent data on that question,.but the religion of the people has not changed, the majority remain Muslims.
Click to expand...

You have child marriage, and then you have child marriage. 

14 or 15 year old marriages, sure, they occurred all over the place, Even in the US. 

But 9? Nah. These are Islamist trying to legislate what they believe is Islamic law  which is based on Aisha's age. I prefer to listen to what the clerics themselves say rather than apologists and liars like yourself.


----------



## Hollie

irosie91 said:


> getting back to  "reporting"            ---muslim countries tend to report -----
> NO MENTAL ILLNESS and ---virtually no crime----and most of all     NO or almost
> no AIDS
> 
> Medical School graduates from Muslim countries I have known-----were taught that
> "MENTAL ILLNESS IS DUE TO KUFR"      (kufr is disbelief in the koran)     Some of them
> seem to want to believe it.
> 
> For years   SAUDI ARABIA reported   "NO HIV" ------lol ------when they finally
> broke down and admitted the truth----they attributed the problem entirely
> to "FOREIGN WORKERS"



You go girl!

That&#8217;s an important point. *Reported* crime statistics are virtually unobtainable in many parts of the islamist Middle East.

How many women in Pakistan are going to report domestic violence when the result of that reporting could mean their being murdered to preserve the family &#8220;honor&#8221;?

How many women in Afghanistan, Yemen, Jordan, Egypt, etc., are going to report crimes such as rape or the marriage of a child daughter to an older man when the result of that reporting could mean having their throat cut or acid thrown in their face for such betrayal?


----------



## Coyote

Roudy said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, and when the Islamists came to power they allowed it, and cited Islamic reasons for it. Not "cultural".  You never get it right. * Child marriage was never a "cultural thing" before the Shah*.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Really?  Care to support that statement?  I suspect child marriages pre-date Islam in Persia.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I don't have to. I lived it, and previous generations did as well. Very Young girls would get married in the past, as was common, but never at the specific age of 9 coinciding with Aisha's age.
Click to expand...


In other words you can't prove anything about pre-Islamic Persia.


----------



## Coyote

MHunterB said:


> I see I didn't exactly make myself clear.  OK, 'fundamentalist' doesn't always mean 'raving wild-eyed lunatics out to force their ways on everyone else' - a very obvious example of this would be the Amish/Mennonite/Hutterite and associated communities.  Or the super tiny community of Ebionites who live in South Jersey (NJ, USA).  Or even the FLDS, who tend to leave everyone else alone and want to be left alone as well.
> 
> THAT's what I was trying to convey by stating that the Taliban and etc are not 'fundamentalists'  - that 'fundamentalism' alone doesn't describe their views, it doesn't truly describe their behavior.



That clarifies it - thanks


----------



## rhodescholar

Islam is a cancer, and the sooner it is eradicated from this planet, the better.


----------



## Hoffstra

rhodescholar said:


> Islam is a cancer, and the sooner it is eradicated from this planet, the better.



how you propose we do that?


----------



## MHunterB

rhodescholar said:


> Islam is a cancer, and the sooner it is eradicated from this planet, the better.



I couldn't DISagree more.  And it doesn't bear attempting to discuss.


----------



## Roudy

toastman said:


> Hahaha ! Nice one Roudy. You just owned Sherri !
> 
> What a biased %&$%%$^$ she is !
> 
> Notice how whenever something negative that a Muslim(s) did is presented here, she does whatever she can to defend them and when she gets desperate, she will involve Jews or Israel hahahaha.



Funny isn't it?  She sifted through the entire page, and ended up posting something totally irrelevant to our discussion, yet conveniently overlooked facts that totally debunked her claims, in relation to child brides among Muslims having everything to do with Islam.

But that's how she is with all her claims.  If you poke at it, it blows up in her face.  LOL


----------



## JohnA

Hossfly said:


> JohnA said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hossfly said:
> 
> 
> 
> We'll pray for you that you'll depart from your heathen ways.
> 
> 
> 
> we atheists can only hope you  wake up one day and stop your idolatry of fictional charactors .
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Mind your own beeswax, heathen.
Click to expand...

 post on here its anybodies bisiness  to reply 
 you can always discuss something with another poster PRIVATELY


----------



## Hossfly

JohnA said:


> Hossfly said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JohnA said:
> 
> 
> 
> we atheists can only hope you  wake up one day and stop your idolatry of fictional charactors .
> 
> 
> 
> Mind your own beeswax, heathen.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> post on here its anybodies bisiness  to reply
> you can always discuss something with another poster PRIVATELY
Click to expand...

Okey dokey.


----------



## Roudy

*Tales of Destruction*

It seems as if there is a competition among Islamic nations as to who can stoop to the most degraded form of immorality by adhering to the barbaric religious laws and traditions put forth by the Quran. Spokesman of the Iranian Parliament, (Majiles) Mohammad Ali Isfenani, announced recently that in order for Iran to view itself as completely complying with Sharia Law it must concede to allow female children under the age of 10 to marry. This seems an obvious gesture to out-pious their Islamic neighbors, Saudia Arabia, who just three months ago lowered their own legal marrying age to 10. 
Mohabat News, an Iranian Christian news service, quotes Mohamaad Ali Isfenani as announcing to the public and Parliament in a recent meeting:

As some people may not comply with our current Islamic legal system, we must regard 9 as being the appropriate age for a girl to have reached puberty and qualified to get married. To do otherwise would be to contradict and challenge Islamic Sharia law.

According to recently released statistics reported by Mohabat news, in the past few weeks over seventy-five female children under the age of 10 were forced to marry much older men in Iran.


----------



## Hossfly

Jos said:


> British haredi man charged with child sexual abuse attempts to get into Israel using phony passport, seeks citizenship under law allowing all Jews to immigrate to Jewish state
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Does the Law of Return trump international law? This question will have to be ruled on by the High Court of Justice, following an attempt by an ultra-Orthodox Jew from England, who was charged with *sexual abuse of children*, to find asylum in Israel.
> 
> 
> 
> Law of Return ? or long arm of law? - Israel News, Ynetnews
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "Now therefore, kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman who has known man intimately. 18"But all the girls who have not known man intimately, spare for yourselves.&#8230;
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Numbers 31:17 Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man,
Click to expand...

So, Yousef Mohammed, would it make you happy if we post many, many articles about Muslim men abusing children not only in Muslim countries but in Europe as well, especially those teachers in madrassas and clergy in the mosques.  Of course, there would be even more articles if Muslim parents spoke up about this, but as one Muslim father had previously said in an article, when he was going to report what happened to his children in a madrassas, the other parents told him to keep quiet.  By the way, Yousef, could you tell us what your hero, Ayatollah Khomeni, had to say about rules for sex?


----------



## Roudy

Well, here's one:

*Muslim Men and Their Child Brides*

CNN reported this week that &#8220;a 12-year-old Yemeni girl, who was forced into marriage, died during a painful childbirth that also killed her baby.&#8221; It was a horrific story &#8211; but in the Islamic world, not an unusual one.

In Yemen in 2008, an eight-year-old girl, Nojoud Mohammed Nasser, was granted a divorce from her thirty-year-old husband in a high-profile case. GulfNews reported at the time that Nojoud was joyful when she was granted her divorce: &#8220;I am so happy to be free and I will go back to school and will never think of getting married again,&#8221; she said. &#8220;It is a good feeling to be rid of my husband and his bad treatment.&#8221;

But what was unusual about her case was not her age &#8211; it was the fact that she was able to get out of her marriage. GulfNews continued: &#8220;According to the International Centre for Research on Women's 2007 statistics, Yemen is one of 20 developing countries where child marriages are common. Nearly half of all Yemeni girls are married before the age of 18.&#8221;

This is because of the example of the prophet of Islam, Muhammad, whom the Koran (33:21) calls the &#8220;excellent example&#8221; of conduct for Muslims. Muhammad himself notoriously had a child bride. According to Sahih Bukhari, the hadith collection that Muslims consider most reliable, Islamic tradition, &#8220;the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old, and then she remained with him for nine years (i.e., till his death).&#8221; Another tradition recalls that at the age of nine, she was playing on a swing with some of her friends when Muhammad came for her.


----------



## Roudy

Coyote said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> Really?  Care to support that statement?  I suspect child marriages pre-date Islam in Persia.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't have to. I lived it, and previous generations did as well. Very Young girls would get married in the past, as was common, but never at the specific age of 9 coinciding with Aisha's age.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> In other words you can't prove anything about pre-Islamic Persia.
Click to expand...

Pre-Islamic Persia?  That was before the 15th century.  You need to brush up on your history there.  

Geez, another irrelevant answer.  

LOL


----------



## Roudy

Yeah, move along folks, this sort of thing happens all over the place.  Nothing to do with Islam or Mohammad, move along:

Read more: The British child brides: Muslim mosque leaders agree to marry girl of 12... so long as parents don't tell anyone | Mail Online 
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

*British Muslim clerics are willing to carry out sharia marriages *involving child brides as young as 12, an investigation has found.

Two imams said they would be prepared to officiate at the wedding of an underage girl to a man in his twenties, despite fears the pair would later have sex.

More than 1,000 of the 8,000 forced marriages of Britons each year are believed to involve girls of 15 or under, with one case last year allegedly involving a girl of five. The clerics were approached by man posing as the father of a 12-year-old  who wanted her to marry to prevent her being tempted into a decadent Western lifestyle. 

Imam Mohammed Kassamali, of the Husaini Islamic Centre in Peterborough, stressed the need for secrecy with such a ceremony.

He allegedly said: If it (the marriage) was not possible, I would  have told you straight away... I would love the girl to go to her husbands houses (sic) as soon as possible, the younger the better. 
*Under sharia (Islamic law) there is no problem.* It is said she should see her first sign of puberty at the house of her husband.

*He explained how the Prophet Muhammad had married a seven-year-old girl before adding: We are his followers, and that is what you have to explain (to your daughter). *

Read more: The British child brides: Muslim mosque leaders agree to marry girl of 12... so long as parents don't tell anyone | Mail Online 
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook


----------



## Roudy

Culture? Maybe, you mean the Culture of Islam?  Yeah.  Definitely. 

Let's hear it from the horse's mouth:

*Iranian Child Brides Get Younger  And More Numerous*

As Iranian lawmakers now seek to lower the legal age of marriage for girls to nine-years-old, the number of Iranian brides already under 10 years of age is sharply rising.

The Iranian decision to allow nine-year-old girls the legal opportunity to be married to fully grown men was announced by Mohammad Ali Isfenani, chairman of the Iranian Parliaments Legal Affairs Committee.

Isfenani called Irans current civil legislation, which sets the minimum legal age of marriage for girls at 13-years-old,* un-Islamic and illegal,* saying,* We must regard nine as being the appropriate age for a girl to have reached puberty and qualified to get married. To do otherwise would be to contradict and challenge Islamic Sharia law.*

Geez...lemme think...hmmmm....nine...now where did we hear THAT magical age again?


----------



## Coyote

Roudy said:


> Yeah, move along folks, this sort of thing happens all over the place.  Nothing to do with Islam or Mohammad, move along:
> 
> Read more: The British child brides: Muslim mosque leaders agree to marry girl of 12... so long as parents don't tell anyone | Mail Online
> Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook
> 
> *British Muslim clerics are willing to carry out sharia marriages *involving child brides as young as 12, an investigation has found.
> 
> Two imams said they would be prepared to officiate at the wedding of an underage girl to a man in his twenties, despite fears the pair would later have sex.
> 
> More than 1,000 of the 8,000 forced marriages of Britons each year are believed to involve girls of 15 or under, with one case last year allegedly involving a girl of five. The clerics were approached by man posing as the father of a 12-year-old  who wanted her to marry to prevent her being tempted into a decadent Western lifestyle.
> 
> Imam Mohammed Kassamali, of the Husaini Islamic Centre in Peterborough, stressed the need for secrecy with such a ceremony.
> 
> He allegedly said: &#8216;If it (the marriage) was not possible, I would  have told you straight away... I would love the girl to go to her husband&#8217;s houses (sic) as soon as possible, the younger the better.
> *&#8216;Under sharia (Islamic law) there is no problem.* It is said she should see her first sign of puberty at the house of her husband.
> 
> *He explained how the Prophet Muhammad had married a seven-year-old girl before adding: &#8216;We are his followers, and that is what you have to explain (to your daughter).&#8217; *
> 
> Read more: The British child brides: Muslim mosque leaders agree to marry girl of 12... so long as parents don't tell anyone | Mail Online
> Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook



It's rare outside of the developing countries.  Like pedophilic priests and rabbi's condoning child marriages - it is not part of the mainstream religion in western countries.  You can always find examples and try to make them the norm as you do with Islam.

Child marriages are first and formost driven by poverty and lack of education - even your own sources, UNICEF etc say that.  And I don't need to yell and bold big letters to make that point.  Your sources already made it.


----------



## Coyote

Roudy said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> 
> I don't have to. I lived it, and previous generations did as well. Very Young girls would get married in the past, as was common, but never at the specific age of 9 coinciding with Aisha's age.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In other words you can't prove anything about pre-Islamic Persia.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Pre-Islamic Persia?  That was before the 15th century.  You need to brush up on your history there.
> 
> Geez, another irrelevant answer.
> 
> LOL
Click to expand...


Roudy, this was your statement:



> Yes, and when the Islamists came to power they allowed it, and cited Islamic reasons for it. Not "cultural". You never get it right. *Child marriage was never a "cultural thing" before the Shah.*



Perhaps I'm interpreting it wrong but it sounds as if you are claiming it was always a "religious" thing.  If that is correct, then my question about pre-Islamic Persia is relevant.  If it is incorrect - then I haven't a clue what you are trying to say here.


----------



## Coyote

Hossfly said:


> Jos said:
> 
> 
> 
> British haredi man charged with child sexual abuse attempts to get into Israel using phony passport, seeks citizenship under law allowing all Jews to immigrate to Jewish state
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Does the Law of Return trump international law? This question will have to be ruled on by the High Court of Justice, following an attempt by an ultra-Orthodox Jew from England, who was charged with *sexual abuse of children*, to find asylum in Israel.
> 
> 
> 
> Law of Return ? or long arm of law? - Israel News, Ynetnews
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "Now therefore, kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman who has known man intimately. 18"But all the girls who have not known man intimately, spare for yourselves.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Numbers 31:17 Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man,
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> So, Yousef Mohammed, would it make you happy if we post many, many articles about Muslim men abusing children not only in Muslim countries but in Europe as well, especially those teachers in madrassas and clergy in the mosques.  Of course, there would be even more articles if Muslim parents spoke up about this, but as one Muslim father had previously said in an article, when he was going to report what happened to his children in a madrassas, the other parents told him to keep quiet.  By the way, Yousef, could you tell us what your hero, Ayatollah Khomeni, had to say about rules for sex?
Click to expand...


Are you concerned about child abuse and child marriages?  Or does it only concern you when it's Muslims?

The countries where the highest number of child marriages occur span religions.  Hindu's even have a festival celebrating child brides as business transactions.  Muslims, Hindus, Christians, Jews in western countries and educated affluent regions seldom approve of child marriages.  

There was considerable public outrage in other Muslim countries over the situation in the OP forcing the Yemeni government to make a change in it's laws.  This seems indicative of change at the public level regarding child marriage in Muslim countries.  I'm not sure how much effect it will have - Yemen is desperately poor and that is a major driver in child marriages around the world.  They are rare in affluent well educated countries and communities regardless of religion.  It's a shame people can't notice things like that and instead focus on demonizing Islam as a whole.

The OP here is promoting an excellent discussion - a much needed discussion.  it's also seperating out those who simply want to demonize Islam and those are concerned with child abuse and child marriages.

Interestingly, few seem to want to remark on child abuse or the abuse of women outside of Muslim countries or explore reasons beyond religion.  No one is saying religion is not a factor at all (I predict someone is going to claim that is what is being said) - but it is not the primary factor.


----------



## Hollie

Roudy said:


> Well, here's one:
> 
> *Muslim Men and Their Child Brides*
> 
> CNN reported this week that a 12-year-old Yemeni girl, who was forced into marriage, died during a painful childbirth that also killed her baby. It was a horrific story  but in the Islamic world, not an unusual one.
> 
> In Yemen in 2008, an eight-year-old girl, Nojoud Mohammed Nasser, was granted a divorce from her thirty-year-old husband in a high-profile case. GulfNews reported at the time that Nojoud was joyful when she was granted her divorce: I am so happy to be free and I will go back to school and will never think of getting married again, she said. It is a good feeling to be rid of my husband and his bad treatment.
> 
> But what was unusual about her case was not her age  it was the fact that she was able to get out of her marriage. GulfNews continued: According to the International Centre for Research on Women's 2007 statistics, Yemen is one of 20 developing countries where child marriages are common. Nearly half of all Yemeni girls are married before the age of 18.
> 
> This is because of the example of the prophet of Islam, Muhammad, whom the Koran (33:21) calls the excellent example of conduct for Muslims. Muhammad himself notoriously had a child bride. According to Sahih Bukhari, the hadith collection that Muslims consider most reliable, Islamic tradition, the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old, and then she remained with him for nine years (i.e., till his death). Another tradition recalls that at the age of nine, she was playing on a swing with some of her friends when Muhammad came for her.





Coyote said:


> Hossfly said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jos said:
> 
> 
> 
> British haredi man charged with child sexual abuse attempts to get into Israel using phony passport, seeks citizenship under law allowing all Jews to immigrate to Jewish state
> 
> 
> Law of Return ? or long arm of law? - Israel News, Ynetnews
> 
> 
> Numbers 31:17 Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man,
> 
> 
> 
> So, Yousef Mohammed, would it make you happy if we post many, many articles about Muslim men abusing children not only in Muslim countries but in Europe as well, especially those teachers in madrassas and clergy in the mosques.  Of course, there would be even more articles if Muslim parents spoke up about this, but as one Muslim father had previously said in an article, when he was going to report what happened to his children in a madrassas, the other parents told him to keep quiet.  By the way, Yousef, could you tell us what your hero, Ayatollah Khomeni, had to say about rules for sex?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Are you concerned about child abuse and child marriages?  Or does it only concern you when it's Muslims?
> 
> The countries where the highest number of child marriages occur span religions.  Hindu's even have a festival celebrating child brides as business transactions.  Muslims, Hindus, Christians, Jews in western countries and educated affluent regions seldom approve of child marriages.
> 
> There was considerable public outrage in other Muslim countries over the situation in the OP forcing the Yemeni government to make a change in it's laws.  This seems indicative of change at the public level regarding child marriage in Muslim countries.  I'm not sure how much effect it will have - Yemen is desperately poor and that is a major driver in child marriages around the world.  They are rare in affluent well educated countries and communities regardless of religion.  It's a shame people can't notice things like that and instead focus on demonizing Islam as a whole.
> 
> The OP here is promoting an excellent discussion - a much needed discussion.  it's also seperating out those who simply want to demonize Islam and those are concerned with child abuse and child marriages.
> 
> Interestingly, few seem to want to remark on child abuse or the abuse of women outside of Muslim countries or explore reasons beyond religion.  No one is saying religion is not a factor at all (I predict someone is going to claim that is what is being said) - but it is not the primary factor.
Click to expand...


 It seems that a basic element of the issue surrounding child marriage is the unholy allowance for it in islamist ideology. 

Education and improving economies can be a solution in non-islamist nations and cultures. Not necessarily so in islamism. In Islam, muhammud (swish), is the central authority, king, Fuhrer and unquestionable figurehead. As the role model for humanity, his words and actions serve as the example not only for moslems but for all humankind. 

If you earnestly believe that something is "perfect" as claimed by a 7th century warlord who claims he heard voices from the gods, most of us would dismiss it as irrelevant. When you are raised in an environment that bestows godhead on that man, you won't endeavor to "fix" it. You won't alter it to accommodate changing times and differing valuesyou will instead demand that the times and values adapt to accommodate your perfect, divinely decreed way of life. And if anyone dares to challenge your convictions in this regard, you try to kill them. With God's imprimatur.

This is precisely what we see taking place across the islamist world.


----------



## irosie91

Discussions of   "child marriage"     are silly if they do not include details----such as huge 
age differences and ---FORCE.       The islamo nazis on this board have resorted to 
lumping the marriage of two 16 year old kids in love with the banging to death of an 
eight year old by her 40 year old  "husband"       The real key to understanding the "culture" 
in question will be just how the shariah courts deal with the murderer


----------



## Coyote

Actually, surprisingly - I agree with that.  There is a distinct difference.  In many of those child marriages - the child is effectively sold for her dower.


----------



## Coyote

Hollie said:


> It seems that a basic element of the issue surrounding child marriage is the unholy allowance for it in islamist ideology.
> 
> *Education and improving economies can be a solution in non-islamist nations and cultures. Not necessarily so in islamism*. In Islam, muhammud (swish), is the central authority, king, Fuhrer and unquestionable figurehead. As the role model for humanity, his words and actions serve as the example not only for moslems but for all humankind.
> 
> If you earnestly believe that something is "perfect" as claimed by a 7th century warlord who claims he heard voices from the gods, most of us would dismiss it as irrelevant. When you are raised in an environment that bestows godhead on that man, you won't endeavor to "fix" it. You won't alter it to accommodate changing times and differing valuesyou will instead demand that the times and values adapt to accommodate your perfect, divinely decreed way of life. And if anyone dares to challenge your convictions in this regard, you try to kill them. With God's imprimatur.
> 
> This is precisely what we see taking place across the islamist world.



Actually, it already has an effect on child marriages in Islamic countries.


----------



## Hossfly

Coyote said:


> Hossfly said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jos said:
> 
> 
> 
> British haredi man charged with child sexual abuse attempts to get into Israel using phony passport, seeks citizenship under law allowing all Jews to immigrate to Jewish state
> 
> 
> Law of Return ? or long arm of law? - Israel News, Ynetnews
> 
> 
> Numbers 31:17 Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man,
> 
> 
> 
> So, Yousef Mohammed, would it make you happy if we post many, many articles about Muslim men abusing children not only in Muslim countries but in Europe as well, especially those teachers in madrassas and clergy in the mosques.  Of course, there would be even more articles if Muslim parents spoke up about this, but as one Muslim father had previously said in an article, when he was going to report what happened to his children in a madrassas, the other parents told him to keep quiet.  By the way, Yousef, could you tell us what your hero, Ayatollah Khomeni, had to say about rules for sex?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Are you concerned about child abuse and child marriages?  Or does it only concern you when it's Muslims?
> 
> The countries where the highest number of child marriages occur span religions.  Hindu's even have a festival celebrating child brides as business transactions.  Muslims, Hindus, Christians, Jews in western countries and educated affluent regions seldom approve of child marriages.
> 
> There was considerable public outrage in other Muslim countries over the situation in the OP forcing the Yemeni government to make a change in it's laws.  This seems indicative of change at the public level regarding child marriage in Muslim countries.  I'm not sure how much effect it will have - Yemen is desperately poor and that is a major driver in child marriages around the world.  They are rare in affluent well educated countries and communities regardless of religion.  It's a shame people can't notice things like that and instead focus on demonizing Islam as a whole.
> 
> The OP here is promoting an excellent discussion - a much needed discussion.  it's also seperating out those who simply want to demonize Islam and those are concerned with child abuse and child marriages.
> 
> Interestingly, few seem to want to remark on child abuse or the abuse of women outside of Muslim countries or explore reasons beyond religion.  No one is saying religion is not a factor at all (I predict someone is going to claim that is what is being said) - but it is not the primary factor.
Click to expand...

I'm not concerned only because it involves Muslims. What concerns me is the fact that Islam incorporates paedophilia into it's religion and the other major religions don't. And what's odd is the impression that you seem to be defending the sickening practice.


----------



## Coyote

Hossfly said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hossfly said:
> 
> 
> 
> So, Yousef Mohammed, would it make you happy if we post many, many articles about Muslim men abusing children not only in Muslim countries but in Europe as well, especially those teachers in madrassas and clergy in the mosques.  Of course, there would be even more articles if Muslim parents spoke up about this, but as one Muslim father had previously said in an article, when he was going to report what happened to his children in a madrassas, the other parents told him to keep quiet.  By the way, Yousef, could you tell us what your hero, Ayatollah Khomeni, had to say about rules for sex?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Are you concerned about child abuse and child marriages?  Or does it only concern you when it's Muslims?
> 
> The countries where the highest number of child marriages occur span religions.  Hindu's even have a festival celebrating child brides as business transactions.  Muslims, Hindus, Christians, Jews in western countries and educated affluent regions seldom approve of child marriages.
> 
> There was considerable public outrage in other Muslim countries over the situation in the OP forcing the Yemeni government to make a change in it's laws.  This seems indicative of change at the public level regarding child marriage in Muslim countries.  I'm not sure how much effect it will have - Yemen is desperately poor and that is a major driver in child marriages around the world.  They are rare in affluent well educated countries and communities regardless of religion.  It's a shame people can't notice things like that and instead focus on demonizing Islam as a whole.
> 
> The OP here is promoting an excellent discussion - a much needed discussion.  it's also seperating out those who simply want to demonize Islam and those are concerned with child abuse and child marriages.
> 
> Interestingly, few seem to want to remark on child abuse or the abuse of women outside of Muslim countries or explore reasons beyond religion.  No one is saying religion is not a factor at all (I predict someone is going to claim that is what is being said) - but it is not the primary factor.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I'm not concerned only because it involves Muslims. What concerns me is the fact that Islam incorporates paedophilia into it's religion and the other major religions don't. And what's odd is the impression that you seem to be defending the sickening practice.
Click to expand...


No.  I'm not.

I'm pointing out that religion isn't the primary factor that drives child marriages in those countries and it's by far not universally accepted amongst Muslims.  I've linked to sources like UNICEF that support that and I've linked to sources that show it's also intertwined with religion in Hindu dominant countries.

I have NEVER defended the practice and if you are going to say that then *please show me where I defended it even by implication!*


----------



## Jos

Hossfly said:


> I'm not concerned only because it involves Muslims. What concerns me is the fact that Islam incorporates paedophilia into it's religion and the other major religions don't. And what's odd is the impression that you seem to be defending the sickening practice.





> *Yeshiva University in New York City is the latest Jewish educational institution to be rocked by accusations of extensive pedophilia by rabbis and teachers. Yeshiva, including an elite high school, the Albert Einstein College of Medicine, the Benjamin N. Cardoza School of Law, and an endowment of nearly 1.3 billion dollars is the Harvard of Orthodox Judaism in America.  But now 31 former high school and Yeshiva affiliate students allege sexual abuse by two highly respected Yeshiva rabbis during 1969-1989. They are suing Yeshiva U. for 380 million dollars. Yeshiva University High School held itself out as an exemplary Jewish secondary school when in fact it was allowing known sexual predators to roam the school at will seeking other victims, said attorney for the plaintiffs, Kevin Mulhearn. Mulhearn asserts that hundreds of boys were sexually molested or sodomized.
> 
> Typically, as with other Jewish child abuse scandals in Brooklyn, Sydney, Melbourne, Jerusalem, etc., Yeshiva's administration is evasive. As a result, AIG (American Insurance Group) may not continue insuring it.
> 
> Why do Jewish authority figures continue to be accused of pedophilia against primarily Jewish children?
> 
> The Talmud, highest authority for modern Talmudic Judaism, endorses pedophilia. It calls it "Halachah" or binding Jewish law!
> 
> The Talmudic rabbi most instrumental in persuading rabbis today to indulge in pedophilia is 2nd century A.D. Simeon ben Yohai.  It's hard to imagine a rabbinic sage more esteemed than ben Yohai. He is credited by Ultra-Orthodox Jews as the author of the Zohar, or Kabbalah.  Every year in Meron in Israel (where ben Yohai died), more than 10,000 Hasidic Jews gather for a week of singing, dancing, and praising ben Yohai, who may well be Kabbalist Judaism's most venerated authority.
> 
> In Orthodox Judaism, the most ancient first and second A.D. rabbis, the "Tannaim," are considered most authoritative. This is largely because they lived in Palestine closest in time to the Pharisees, who, originating in Babylon, created the Mishnah (oral law), which later became written down as the Babylonian Talmud. Some Tanna receive greater respect from Orthodox Jews than does Moses. Jesus accused the oral law of "making the law of God of none effect."
> 
> The Talmud is the greatest religious authority for observant Jews today. It teaches that when sages of ben Yohais stature pronounced new laws, they did so out of the memory of what God had taught them in heaven. The Talmud says such memory was imparted to ben Yohai's teacher, Rabbi Akiba: when Moses died he went to heaven and beheld Rabbi Akiba expounding wondrously on the Torah. Thus, when ben Yohai authorizes pedophilia in the Talmud, such permission becomes law for Orthodox Jews for all time.
> 
> In Yebamoth 60b the Talmud says:
> 
> It was taught: R. Simeon ben Yohai stated: A proselyte who is under the age of three years and one day is permitted to marry a priest. For it is said, But all the women children that have not known men by lying with them, keep for yourselves; and Phinehas surely was with them.
> 
> Ben Yohais interpretation comes from Numbers 31:18. The Hebrews, after defeating the Midianites, were allowed to keep virginal females of all ages as wives or potential wives when they sexually matured. Ben Yohai exploited this verse to claim God gives Jews rights to sexual use of females of virtually any age, although he puts the lower bar at three years and a day. Further, he says that because the righteous Phinehas was among the Hebrew congregation who accepted the Midianite women, it means that Phinehas endorsed child sex.
> 
> Footnote 5 to this passage says ben Yohai's permission for sex with 3-year-old girls stands for all time.The footnote asks, How could they [any other rabbi in history], contrary to the opinions of R. Simeon ben Yohai, which has scriptural support, forbid the marriage of the young proselytes? Clearly, they can't.   (The full text of this footnote and the entire passage from the Soncino edition of the Talmud are at the end of this article.)
> 
> Thus, the question posed by the Talmud footnote is extremely significant and timely. It says that just as no rabbinic authority can defy ben Yohais halachic permission for sex with 3-year-old girls, so no rabbinic authority in any Jewish organization, synagogue, Yeshiva high school, college, or seminary today is empowered to declare that pedophilia for the Jew is wrong!*


NPN Article: Judaism's Pedophilia Begins with Rabbi ben Yohai


----------



## irosie91

Coyote said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> It seems that a basic element of the issue surrounding child marriage is the unholy allowance for it in islamist ideology.
> 
> *Education and improving economies can be a solution in non-islamist nations and cultures. Not necessarily so in islamism*. In Islam, muhammud (swish), is the central authority, king, Fuhrer and unquestionable figurehead. As the role model for humanity, his words and actions serve as the example not only for moslems but for all humankind.
> 
> If you earnestly believe that something is "perfect" as claimed by a 7th century warlord who claims he heard voices from the gods, most of us would dismiss it as irrelevant. When you are raised in an environment that bestows godhead on that man, you won't endeavor to "fix" it. You won't alter it to accommodate changing times and differing valuesyou will instead demand that the times and values adapt to accommodate your perfect, divinely decreed way of life. And if anyone dares to challenge your convictions in this regard, you try to kill them. With God's imprimatur.
> 
> This is precisely what we see taking place across the islamist world.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Actually, it already has an effect on child marriages in Islamic countries.
Click to expand...



    quite a vague comment there.......      The FACT is that even amongst immigrant 
    groups in the USA and in Great Britain ------FORCED MARRIAGES amongst muslims 
    are quite common.      I should add that the term  "child marriage"  is very vague and 
    not really descriptive of an abusive situation       In Maryland,  USA -----two 14 year old 
    kids can marry.    For me abuse of----mostly women ---but even of boys ---includes 
    FORCED MARRIAGE and for muslim girls that often includes age disparate marriage 
    and marriage related to business deals or  "compensation"   for some alleged crime.  
    Another issue is  family supported abuse of women------a personal observation-----
    amongst muslim women in abusive relationships----the last persons a girl can  
    depends on are her own parents and brothers.     I do believe that amongst very 
    impoverished  Hindus in India----the same may be true-----but also  (on personal 
    observation)  find hindu families in the USA  and among affluent hindus----very 
    supportive       (you can go right ahead and snarl-----"so you know every hindu and 
    every muslim in the world"----since you like to prove yourself not so bright)

    MOST  muslims of the world are both illiterate and impoverished-----a bad prognosis 
    for improvement based on your personally generated criteria.    Illiterate impoverished 
    muslims tend to be very much into conservative islam-------that is how the Ayatoilets 
    got into power------if the voting were restricted to  TEHERAN-----they would not have 
    had a chance.  

    Osama bin laden was highly educated -----he had a university degree in Engineering.
    Pakistani informants have told me that the  TALIBAN ----are derived from the University 
    Campuses of Pakistan-----the cream of  PROPEROUS AND EDUCATED PAKISTANI 
    YOUTH.    In the early   90s----young docs even bragged about the relatives and 
    classmates who went   "noble taliban"

          but then again-----who cares----this entire thread is idiotic especially the prevalent 
          rule that anyone marrying under the age of  18 is engaged in a barbaric 'child 
          marriage'


----------



## Hossfly

Jos said:


> Hossfly said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not concerned only because it involves Muslims. What concerns me is the fact that Islam incorporates paedophilia into it's religion and the other major religions don't. And what's odd is the impression that you seem to be defending the sickening practice.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Yeshiva University in New York City is the latest Jewish educational institution to be rocked by accusations of extensive pedophilia by rabbis and teachers. Yeshiva, including an elite high school, the Albert Einstein College of Medicine, the Benjamin N. Cardoza School of Law, and an endowment of nearly 1.3 billion dollars is the Harvard of Orthodox Judaism in America.  But now 31 former high school and Yeshiva affiliate students allege sexual abuse by two highly respected Yeshiva rabbis during 1969-1989. They are suing Yeshiva U. for 380 million dollars. Yeshiva University High School held itself out as an exemplary Jewish secondary school when in fact it was allowing known sexual predators to roam the school at will seeking other victims, said attorney for the plaintiffs, Kevin Mulhearn. Mulhearn asserts that hundreds of boys were sexually molested or sodomized.
> 
> Typically, as with other Jewish child abuse scandals in Brooklyn, Sydney, Melbourne, Jerusalem, etc., Yeshiva's administration is evasive. As a result, AIG (American Insurance Group) may not continue insuring it.
> 
> Why do Jewish authority figures continue to be accused of pedophilia against primarily Jewish children?
> 
> The Talmud, highest authority for modern Talmudic Judaism, endorses pedophilia. It calls it "Halachah" or binding Jewish law!
> 
> The Talmudic rabbi most instrumental in persuading rabbis today to indulge in pedophilia is 2nd century A.D. Simeon ben Yohai.  It's hard to imagine a rabbinic sage more esteemed than ben Yohai. He is credited by Ultra-Orthodox Jews as the author of the Zohar, or Kabbalah.  Every year in Meron in Israel (where ben Yohai died), more than 10,000 Hasidic Jews gather for a week of singing, dancing, and praising ben Yohai, who may well be Kabbalist Judaism's most venerated authority.
> 
> In Orthodox Judaism, the most ancient first and second A.D. rabbis, the "Tannaim," are considered most authoritative. This is largely because they lived in Palestine closest in time to the Pharisees, who, originating in Babylon, created the Mishnah (oral law), which later became written down as the Babylonian Talmud. Some Tanna receive greater respect from Orthodox Jews than does Moses. Jesus accused the oral law of "making the law of God of none effect."
> 
> The Talmud is the greatest religious authority for observant Jews today. It teaches that when sages of ben Yohais stature pronounced new laws, they did so out of the memory of what God had taught them in heaven. The Talmud says such memory was imparted to ben Yohai's teacher, Rabbi Akiba: when Moses died he went to heaven and beheld Rabbi Akiba expounding wondrously on the Torah. Thus, when ben Yohai authorizes pedophilia in the Talmud, such permission becomes law for Orthodox Jews for all time.
> 
> In Yebamoth 60b the Talmud says:
> 
> It was taught: R. Simeon ben Yohai stated: A proselyte who is under the age of three years and one day is permitted to marry a priest. For it is said, But all the women children that have not known men by lying with them, keep for yourselves; and Phinehas surely was with them.
> 
> Ben Yohais interpretation comes from Numbers 31:18. The Hebrews, after defeating the Midianites, were allowed to keep virginal females of all ages as wives or potential wives when they sexually matured. Ben Yohai exploited this verse to claim God gives Jews rights to sexual use of females of virtually any age, although he puts the lower bar at three years and a day. Further, he says that because the righteous Phinehas was among the Hebrew congregation who accepted the Midianite women, it means that Phinehas endorsed child sex.
> 
> Footnote 5 to this passage says ben Yohai's permission for sex with 3-year-old girls stands for all time.The footnote asks, How could they [any other rabbi in history], contrary to the opinions of R. Simeon ben Yohai, which has scriptural support, forbid the marriage of the young proselytes? Clearly, they can't.   (The full text of this footnote and the entire passage from the Soncino edition of the Talmud are at the end of this article.)
> 
> Thus, the question posed by the Talmud footnote is extremely significant and timely. It says that just as no rabbinic authority can defy ben Yohais halachic permission for sex with 3-year-old girls, so no rabbinic authority in any Jewish organization, synagogue, Yeshiva high school, college, or seminary today is empowered to declare that pedophilia for the Jew is wrong!*
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> NPN Article: Judaism's Pedophilia Begins with Rabbi ben Yohai
Click to expand...

I'll defer to some of the Judaic Studies scholars here. Tale it away, Irosie.


----------



## Hossfly

Coyote said:


> Hossfly said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> Are you concerned about child abuse and child marriages?  Or does it only concern you when it's Muslims?
> 
> The countries where the highest number of child marriages occur span religions.  Hindu's even have a festival celebrating child brides as business transactions.  Muslims, Hindus, Christians, Jews in western countries and educated affluent regions seldom approve of child marriages.
> 
> There was considerable public outrage in other Muslim countries over the situation in the OP forcing the Yemeni government to make a change in it's laws.  This seems indicative of change at the public level regarding child marriage in Muslim countries.  I'm not sure how much effect it will have - Yemen is desperately poor and that is a major driver in child marriages around the world.  They are rare in affluent well educated countries and communities regardless of religion.  It's a shame people can't notice things like that and instead focus on demonizing Islam as a whole.
> 
> The OP here is promoting an excellent discussion - a much needed discussion.  it's also seperating out those who simply want to demonize Islam and those are concerned with child abuse and child marriages.
> 
> Interestingly, few seem to want to remark on child abuse or the abuse of women outside of Muslim countries or explore reasons beyond religion.  No one is saying religion is not a factor at all (I predict someone is going to claim that is what is being said) - but it is not the primary factor.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not concerned only because it involves Muslims. What concerns me is the fact that Islam incorporates paedophilia into it's religion and the other major religions don't. And what's odd is the impression that you seem to be defending the sickening practice.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No.  I'm not.
> 
> I'm pointing out that religion isn't the primary factor that drives child marriages in those countries and it's by far not universally accepted amongst Muslims.  I've linked to sources like UNICEF that support that and I've linked to sources that show it's also intertwined with religion in Hindu dominant countries.
> 
> I have NEVER defended the practice and if you are going to say that then *please show me where I defended it even by implication!*
Click to expand...

Well, you do seem to be kicking mightily against the pricks.


----------



## Coyote

Islamic law does not sanction child marriage - The Hindu



> It is well known that insofar as its legality is concerned, marriage in Islam is a written covenant between two individuals and as such both have to be adults to understand the responsibilities and intricacies of such an agreement. This prescript, that strikes at the root of the concept of child marriage, is supported by verse 4:6 of the Quran which equates the age of marriage (balaghun nikah) with the age of intellectual maturity (rushd), a stage that comes after the age of puberty. Yet traditions are cited by the jurists to justify child marriage as if to suggest the Prophet allowed what the Koran clearly did not encourage. For instance, Sunni law, without any Koranic or Prophetic basis, empowers the father, granting him the status of wali (guardian), to impose marriage on his minor children in their best interests.
> 
> In fact, Sec. 2(vii) of the DMMA itself appears to be based on an archaic, sectarian law which states that the marriage contracted on behalf of a minor by any guardian other than the father and paternal grandfather can be revoked by the minor on attaining the age of puberty. This doctrine, which also finds a mention in the Delhi HC ruling, is known as khiyar al-buloogh or, option of puberty. It is based on a report in Abu Dawood's hadess collection, wherein the Prophet is supposed to have given a minor girl the option to repudiate her marriage when she informed him that her father had married her off against her will. But a reading of this hadees shows that the girl in question was not a minor because the word used to describe her is bikran which means a grown-up, virgin. Also, there is no mention of puberty in the report and hence, the Prophet could not have advised her to wait until puberty to exercise her right to divorce.
> 
> Even if it is hypothetically assumed that bikran refers to a minor, the wordings of the Abu Dawood hadees clearly indicate that the Prophet had the marriage annulled immediately on knowing from the girl that her consent was not obtained. In a similar narrative mentioned in Sahih Bukhari, the Prophet annulled the marriage of Khansa'a bint-e-Khizaam when she complained to him that her father had forced her into a marriage which was not to her liking. The only inference that could be drawn from these reports is that child or forced marriage has no legal validity in Islam. This conclusion is supported by another hadees, found in both Sahih Bukhari and Sahih Muslim, in which the Prophet is quoted as saying, An ayyim (a widow or divorcee) shall not be married till she gives her consent, and nor a bikr (a virgin) be married till her consent is sought. Therefore, the concept of khiyar-al buloogh is bad in law as it is based on an erroneous premise.


----------



## Coyote

Hossfly said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hossfly said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not concerned only because it involves Muslims. What concerns me is the fact that Islam incorporates paedophilia into it's religion and the other major religions don't. And what's odd is the impression that you seem to be defending the sickening practice.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No.  I'm not.
> 
> I'm pointing out that religion isn't the primary factor that drives child marriages in those countries and it's by far not universally accepted amongst Muslims.  I've linked to sources like UNICEF that support that and I've linked to sources that show it's also intertwined with religion in Hindu dominant countries.
> 
> I have NEVER defended the practice and if you are going to say that then *please show me where I defended it even by implication!*
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Well, you do seem to be kicking mightily against the pricks.
Click to expand...


I don't like pricks or dicks


----------



## Hossfly

Coyote said:


> Hossfly said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> No.  I'm not.
> 
> I'm pointing out that religion isn't the primary factor that drives child marriages in those countries and it's by far not universally accepted amongst Muslims.  I've linked to sources like UNICEF that support that and I've linked to sources that show it's also intertwined with religion in Hindu dominant countries.
> 
> I have NEVER defended the practice and if you are going to say that then *please show me where I defended it even by implication!*
> 
> 
> 
> Well, you do seem to be kicking mightily against the pricks.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I don't like pricks or dicks
Click to expand...

Arghhhhhhhhhhhhh!


----------



## irosie91

regarding the statement    ---in sum and substance    "child marriage is found 
 in impoverished countries"------wrong again-----it is a huge problem in Saudi 
Arabia------to clarify-----my definition of  "child marriage'----is a kid not able to 
be on her own ----or simply dependent who is forced to marry someone she does 
not like or who is much older-----it does not include two fourteen year olds 
who run away to marry       One of the problems in AFFLUENT islamic countries 
is the custom of  MAHR ----which is money paid to the guardian of the girl ----
for getting her  'hand'--------where there is affluence---there is always someone 
with a LOT OF MONEY-----and others in need or simply wants more.    MAHR is 
the basis of lots of forced marriages.        There are lots of cases of dead girls---who 
refused the man-----thus risking the  MAHR  -----once mahr is paid and a girl says no----
the  "DISHONOR"  ----is horrific-----dead girl is better


----------



## Roudy

Coyote said:


> Islamic law does not sanction child marriage - The Hindu
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It is well known that insofar as its legality is concerned, marriage in Islam is a written covenant between two individuals and as such both have to be adults to understand the responsibilities and intricacies of such an agreement. This prescript, that strikes at the root of the concept of child marriage, is supported by verse 4:6 of the Quran which equates the age of marriage (balaghun nikah) with the age of intellectual maturity (rushd), a stage that comes after the age of puberty. Yet traditions are cited by the jurists to justify child marriage as if to suggest the Prophet allowed what the Koran clearly did not encourage. For instance, Sunni law, without any Koranic or Prophetic basis, empowers the father, granting him the status of wali (guardian), to impose marriage on his minor children in their best interests.
> 
> In fact, Sec. 2(vii) of the DMMA itself appears to be based on an archaic, sectarian law which states that the marriage contracted on behalf of a minor by any guardian other than the father and paternal grandfather can be revoked by the minor on attaining the age of puberty. This doctrine, which also finds a mention in the Delhi HC ruling, is known as khiyar al-buloogh or, option of puberty. It is based on a report in Abu Dawood's hadess collection, wherein the Prophet is supposed to have given a minor girl the option to repudiate her marriage when she informed him that her father had married her off against her will. But a reading of this hadees shows that the girl in question was not a minor because the word used to describe her is bikran which means a grown-up, virgin. Also, there is no mention of puberty in the report and hence, the Prophet could not have advised her to wait until puberty to exercise her right to divorce.
> 
> Even if it is hypothetically assumed that bikran refers to a minor, the wordings of the Abu Dawood hadees clearly indicate that the Prophet had the marriage annulled immediately on knowing from the girl that her consent was not obtained. In a similar narrative mentioned in Sahih Bukhari, the Prophet annulled the marriage of Khansa'a bint-e-Khizaam when she complained to him that her father had forced her into a marriage which was not to her liking. The only inference that could be drawn from these reports is that child or forced marriage has no legal validity in Islam. This conclusion is supported by another hadees, found in both Sahih Bukhari and Sahih Muslim, in which the Prophet is quoted as saying, An ayyim (a widow or divorcee) shall not be married till she gives her consent, and nor a bikr (a virgin) be married till her consent is sought. Therefore, the concept of khiyar-al buloogh is bad in law as it is based on an erroneous premise.
Click to expand...

Not according to the Muslim clerics and those legislating Shariah and Islamic laws in many Muslim countries.


----------



## Roudy

Coyote said:


> Hossfly said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> Are you concerned about child abuse and child marriages?  Or does it only concern you when it's Muslims?
> 
> The countries where the highest number of child marriages occur span religions.  Hindu's even have a festival celebrating child brides as business transactions.  Muslims, Hindus, Christians, Jews in western countries and educated affluent regions seldom approve of child marriages.
> 
> There was considerable public outrage in other Muslim countries over the situation in the OP forcing the Yemeni government to make a change in it's laws.  This seems indicative of change at the public level regarding child marriage in Muslim countries.  I'm not sure how much effect it will have - Yemen is desperately poor and that is a major driver in child marriages around the world.  They are rare in affluent well educated countries and communities regardless of religion.  It's a shame people can't notice things like that and instead focus on demonizing Islam as a whole.
> 
> The OP here is promoting an excellent discussion - a much needed discussion.  it's also seperating out those who simply want to demonize Islam and those are concerned with child abuse and child marriages.
> 
> Interestingly, few seem to want to remark on child abuse or the abuse of women outside of Muslim countries or explore reasons beyond religion.  No one is saying religion is not a factor at all (I predict someone is going to claim that is what is being said) - but it is not the primary factor.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not concerned only because it involves Muslims. What concerns me is the fact that Islam incorporates paedophilia into it's religion and the other major religions don't. And what's odd is the impression that you seem to be defending the sickening practice.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No.  I'm not.
> 
> I'm pointing out that religion isn't the primary factor that drives child marriages in those countries and it's by far not universally accepted amongst Muslims.  I've linked to sources like UNICEF that support that and I've linked to sources that show it's also intertwined with religion in Hindu dominant countries.
> 
> I have NEVER defended the practice and if you are going to say that then *please show me where I defended it even by implication!*
Click to expand...

You keep SAYING that religion isn't, and we keep pointing that it is, with evidence  The fact that you wish to remain stubbornly in denial, doesn't change anything.


----------



## Coyote

Roudy said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hossfly said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not concerned only because it involves Muslims. What concerns me is the fact that Islam incorporates paedophilia into it's religion and the other major religions don't. And what's odd is the impression that you seem to be defending the sickening practice.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No.  I'm not.
> 
> I'm pointing out that religion isn't the primary factor that drives child marriages in those countries and it's by far not universally accepted amongst Muslims.  I've linked to sources like UNICEF that support that and I've linked to sources that show it's also intertwined with religion in Hindu dominant countries.
> 
> I have NEVER defended the practice and if you are going to say that then *please show me where I defended it even by implication!*
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You keep SAYING that religion isn't, and we keep pointing that it is, with evidence  The fact that you wish to remain stubbornly in denial, doesn't change anything.
Click to expand...


You have not provided evidence for relgion being the PRIMARY factor for child marriage in Muslim dominant countries.  All the Muslim countries with high rates are very poor and/or the highest rates occur in the rural and poor sections.


----------



## Jos

Hossfly said:


> Jos said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hossfly said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not concerned only because it involves Muslims. What concerns me is the fact that Islam incorporates paedophilia into it's religion and the other major religions don't. And what's odd is the impression that you seem to be defending the sickening practice.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Yeshiva University in New York City is the latest Jewish educational institution to be rocked by accusations of extensive pedophilia by rabbis and teachers. Yeshiva, including an elite high school, the Albert Einstein College of Medicine, the Benjamin N. Cardoza School of Law, and an endowment of nearly 1.3 billion dollars is the Harvard of Orthodox Judaism in America.  But now 31 former high school and Yeshiva affiliate students allege sexual abuse by two highly respected Yeshiva rabbis during 1969-1989. They are suing Yeshiva U. for 380 million dollars. Yeshiva University High School held itself out as an exemplary Jewish secondary school when in fact it was allowing known sexual predators to roam the school at will seeking other victims, said attorney for the plaintiffs, Kevin Mulhearn. Mulhearn asserts that hundreds of boys were sexually molested or sodomized.
> 
> Typically, as with other Jewish child abuse scandals in Brooklyn, Sydney, Melbourne, Jerusalem, etc., Yeshiva's administration is evasive. As a result, AIG (American Insurance Group) may not continue insuring it.
> 
> Why do Jewish authority figures continue to be accused of pedophilia against primarily Jewish children?
> 
> The Talmud, highest authority for modern Talmudic Judaism, endorses pedophilia. It calls it "Halachah" or binding Jewish law!
> 
> The Talmudic rabbi most instrumental in persuading rabbis today to indulge in pedophilia is 2nd century A.D. Simeon ben Yohai.  It's hard to imagine a rabbinic sage more esteemed than ben Yohai. He is credited by Ultra-Orthodox Jews as the author of the Zohar, or Kabbalah.  Every year in Meron in Israel (where ben Yohai died), more than 10,000 Hasidic Jews gather for a week of singing, dancing, and praising ben Yohai, who may well be Kabbalist Judaism's most venerated authority.
> 
> In Orthodox Judaism, the most ancient first and second A.D. rabbis, the "Tannaim," are considered most authoritative. This is largely because they lived in Palestine closest in time to the Pharisees, who, originating in Babylon, created the Mishnah (oral law), which later became written down as the Babylonian Talmud. Some Tanna receive greater respect from Orthodox Jews than does Moses. Jesus accused the oral law of "making the law of God of none effect."
> 
> The Talmud is the greatest religious authority for observant Jews today. It teaches that when sages of ben Yohais stature pronounced new laws, they did so out of the memory of what God had taught them in heaven. The Talmud says such memory was imparted to ben Yohai's teacher, Rabbi Akiba: when Moses died he went to heaven and beheld Rabbi Akiba expounding wondrously on the Torah. Thus, when ben Yohai authorizes pedophilia in the Talmud, such permission becomes law for Orthodox Jews for all time.
> 
> In Yebamoth 60b the Talmud says:
> 
> It was taught: R. Simeon ben Yohai stated: A proselyte who is under the age of three years and one day is permitted to marry a priest. For it is said, But all the women children that have not known men by lying with them, keep for yourselves; and Phinehas surely was with them.
> 
> Ben Yohais interpretation comes from Numbers 31:18. The Hebrews, after defeating the Midianites, were allowed to keep virginal females of all ages as wives or potential wives when they sexually matured. Ben Yohai exploited this verse to claim God gives Jews rights to sexual use of females of virtually any age, although he puts the lower bar at three years and a day. Further, he says that because the righteous Phinehas was among the Hebrew congregation who accepted the Midianite women, it means that Phinehas endorsed child sex.
> 
> Footnote 5 to this passage says ben Yohai's permission for sex with 3-year-old girls stands for all time.The footnote asks, How could they [any other rabbi in history], contrary to the opinions of R. Simeon ben Yohai, which has scriptural support, forbid the marriage of the young proselytes? Clearly, they can't.   (The full text of this footnote and the entire passage from the Soncino edition of the Talmud are at the end of this article.)
> 
> Thus, the question posed by the Talmud footnote is extremely significant and timely. It says that just as no rabbinic authority can defy ben Yohais halachic permission for sex with 3-year-old girls, so no rabbinic authority in any Jewish organization, synagogue, Yeshiva high school, college, or seminary today is empowered to declare that pedophilia for the Jew is wrong!*
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> NPN Article: Judaism's Pedophilia Begins with Rabbi ben Yohai
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I'll defer to some of the Judaic Studies scholars here. Tale it away, Irosie.
Click to expand...


They will not "tale it away" they will ignore it, as they always ignore the truth


----------



## S.J.

So let's say the muslim parent sells the child because they're poor and they need money.  What about the muslim who BUYS the child?  The poverty excuse doesn't cut it, it's still primarily a muslim practice that exists because of Muhammad's marriage to Aisha (if it's ok for the "prophet", it's ok for the rest of them).


----------



## Coyote

S.J. said:


> So let's say the muslim parent sells the child because they're poor and they need money.  What about the muslim who BUYS the child?  The poverty excuse doesn't cut it, it's still primarily a muslim practice that exists because of Muhammad's marriage to Aisha (if it's ok for the "prophet", it's ok for the rest of them).



What about the Christian that buys the child?
What about the Hindu that buys the child?

What about the man who buys the child?  A pedophile.

According to the statistics by human rights organizations, the biggest offenders are distributed across the spectrum with slightly more being Christian majority countries.


----------



## Coyote

Child Marriage - Facts Causes and Consequences of Child Marriage and Sexual Abuse of Children



> *Causes of Child Marriage
> *
> Child marriage *has many causes: cultural, social, economic and religious*. In many cases,* a mixture of these causes* results in the imprisonment of children in marriages without their consent.
> 
> *Poverty*: Poor families sell their children into marriage either to settle debts or to make some money and escape the cycle of poverty. Child marriage fosters poverty, however, as it ensures that girls who marry young will not be properly educated or take part in the workforce.
> 
> *"Protecting" the girl's sexuality*: In certain cultures, marrying a girl young presumes that the girl's sexuality, therefore the girl's family's honor, will be "protected" but ensuring that the girl marries as a virgin. The imposition of family honor on a girl's individuality, in essence robbing the girl of her honor and dignity, undermines the credibility of family honor and instead underscores the presumed protection's actual aim: to control the girl.
> *
> Gender discrimination*: Child marriage is a product of cultures that devalue women and girls and discriminate against them. "The discrimination," according to a UNICEF report on "Child Marriage and the Law," "often manifests itself in the form of domestic violence, marital rape, and deprivation of food, lack of access to information, education, healthcare, and general impediments to mobility."
> 
> *Inadequate laws*: Many countries such as Pakistan have laws against child marriage. The laws are not enforced. In Afghanistan, a new law was written into the country's code enabling Shiite, or Hazara, communities to impose their own form of family law--including permitting child marriage.
> 
> *Trafficking:* Poor families are tempted to sell their girls not just into marriage, but into prostitution, as the transaction enables large sums of money to change hands.



Child marriages in the Middle East - multiple issues including religion, but what is listed first? Poverty.


----------



## Coyote

Top Ten Facts About Child Brides



> 1. Worldwide, an estimated 51 million girls younger than 18 are child brides.
> 
> 
> 2. The majority of child marriages occur in *West and East Africa and South Asia*.
> 
> 3. Over the next decade, another 100 million girls will become child brides.
> 
> 4. Child marriage endangers girls.  Child brides experience *a higher incidence of domestic violence*, marital abuse (including physical, sexual or psychological abuse) and abandonment.
> 
> 5. Child marriage increases maternal mortality and infant mortality rates.
> 
> 6. *Many child brides are well below 15.* Although the median age of marriage for child brides is 15, some as young as 7 or 8 are forced into marriage.
> 
> 7. Risk factors for young teen girls who give birth are greatly increased.  Girls who become pregnant under age 15 are five times more likely to die in childbirth than women who give birth in their 20s.
> 
> 8. Sexual disparity in child marriages increases risk of AIDS.
> Because many often marry older men with more sexual experience, child brides face a higher risk of contracting HIV.


----------



## S.J.

Muslims lead the world in child brides, regardless of the ethnical makeup of the countries they live in.  If a country is 55% Christian and 45% muslim, and all of the child bride cases are muslims, it's still muslims who are the offenders even though technically it's a "Christian country".  You are failing in your attempt to dismiss muslim pedophilia.


----------



## Roudy

Coyote said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> No.  I'm not.
> 
> I'm pointing out that religion isn't the primary factor that drives child marriages in those countries and it's by far not universally accepted amongst Muslims.  I've linked to sources like UNICEF that support that and I've linked to sources that show it's also intertwined with religion in Hindu dominant countries.
> 
> I have NEVER defended the practice and if you are going to say that then *please show me where I defended it even by implication!*
> 
> 
> 
> You keep SAYING that religion isn't, and we keep pointing that it is, with evidence  The fact that you wish to remain stubbornly in denial, doesn't change anything.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You have not provided evidence for relgion being the PRIMARY factor for child marriage in Muslim dominant countries.  All the Muslim countries with high rates are very poor and/or the highest rates occur in the rural and poor sections.
Click to expand...

Sure I have.  I have shown you Muslim states that justify child brides due to Islamic law, head Muslim clerics and imams that have sanctioned it and therefore codified into state laws at times, and Muslims disobey civil laws banning such marriages (as in 150 million Muslims in India) due to religious rights.  Not my problem you refuse to accept the truth.


----------



## Roudy

S.J. said:


> Muslims lead the world in child brides, regardless of the ethnical makeup of the countries they live in.  If a country is 55% Christian and 45% muslim, and all of the child bride cases are muslims, it's still muslims who are the offenders even though technically it's a "Christian country".  You are failing in your attempt to dismiss muslim pedophilia.


Yet despite Muslims leading the world in child brides and etc.  Our local Islam defenders sit here and repeat: "It has nothing to do with Islam, it has nothing to do with Islam, it has nothing to do with Islam..."


----------



## Roudy

Coyote said:


> Top Ten Facts About Child Brides
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 1. Worldwide, an estimated 51 million girls younger than 18 are child brides.
> 
> 
> 2. The majority of child marriages occur in *West and East Africa and South Asia*.
> 
> 3. Over the next decade, another 100 million girls will become child brides.
> 
> 4. Child marriage endangers girls.  Child brides experience *a higher incidence of domestic violence*, marital abuse (including physical, sexual or psychological abuse) and abandonment.
> 
> 5. Child marriage increases maternal mortality and infant mortality rates.
> 
> 6. *Many child brides are well below 15.* Although the median age of marriage for child brides is 15, some as young as 7 or 8 are forced into marriage.
> 
> 7. Risk factors for young teen girls who give birth are greatly increased.  Girls who become pregnant under age 15 are five times more likely to die in childbirth than women who give birth in their 20s.
> 
> 8. Sexual disparity in child marriages increases risk of AIDS.
> Because many often marry older men with more sexual experience, child brides face a higher risk of contracting HIV.
Click to expand...

Been there done that about 10 times so far.  The evidence that Islam is the main cause of child brides among Muslims is overwhelming and factual.  Get over it and move on.


----------



## Roudy

Jos said:


> Hossfly said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jos said:
> 
> 
> 
> NPN Article: Judaism's Pedophilia Begins with Rabbi ben Yohai
> 
> 
> 
> I'll defer to some of the Judaic Studies scholars here. Tale it away, Irosie.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> They will not "tale it away" they will ignore it, as they always ignore the truth
Click to expand...

Geez, Jewish people have pedophiles too?  OMG!  How about other people?  Are there pedophiles among Catholics and Muslims and Hindus?  Wow, what a freakin' revelation!  LOLOLOLOL


----------



## toastman

Roudy said:


> Jos said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hossfly said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'll defer to some of the Judaic Studies scholars here. Tale it away, Irosie.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> They will not "tale it away" they will ignore it, as they always ignore the truth
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Geez, Jewish people have pedophiles too?  OMG!  How about other people?  Are there pedophiles among Catholics and Muslims and Hindus?  Wow, what a freakin' revelation!  LOLOLOLOL
Click to expand...


Poor Jos, can't handle that it it his people that partake in this disgusting behavior. So he becomes desperate and tried to involve Jooooooos in the discussion. 

*yawn*


----------



## SherriMunnerlyn

S.J. said:


> Muslims lead the world in child brides, regardless of the ethnical makeup of the countries they live in.  If a country is 55% Christian and 45% muslim, and all of the child bride cases are muslims, it's still muslims who are the offenders even though technically it's a "Christian country".  You are failing in your attempt to dismiss muslim pedophilia.



Your post is utter BS, obviously the production of a bigoted and hate filled mind!

I challenge you to back up your allegations with FACTS!


----------



## Hossfly

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> S.J. said:
> 
> 
> 
> Muslims lead the world in child brides, regardless of the ethnical makeup of the countries they live in.  If a country is 55% Christian and 45% muslim, and all of the child bride cases are muslims, it's still muslims who are the offenders even though technically it's a "Christian country".  You are failing in your attempt to dismiss muslim pedophilia.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Your post is utter BS, obviously the production of a bigoted and hate filled mind!
> 
> I challenge you to back up your allegations with FACTS!
Click to expand...

After reading SJs post, your reply makes no sense at all and causes me to fear for your sanity.


----------



## toastman

Hossfly said:


> SherriMunnerlyn said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> S.J. said:
> 
> 
> 
> Muslims lead the world in child brides, regardless of the ethnical makeup of the countries they live in.  If a country is 55% Christian and 45% muslim, and all of the child bride cases are muslims, it's still muslims who are the offenders even though technically it's a "Christian country".  You are failing in your attempt to dismiss muslim pedophilia.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Your post is utter BS, obviously the production of a bigoted and hate filled mind!
> 
> I challenge you to back up your allegations with FACTS!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> After reading SJs post, your reply makes no sense at all and causes me to fear for your sanity.
Click to expand...


Only NOW you are fearing her sanity ?


----------



## Hossfly

toastman said:


> Hossfly said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SherriMunnerlyn said:
> 
> 
> 
> Your post is utter BS, obviously the production of a bigoted and hate filled mind!
> 
> I challenge you to back up your allegations with FACTS!
> 
> 
> 
> After reading SJs post, your reply makes no sense at all and causes me to fear for your sanity.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Only NOW you are fearing her sanity ?
Click to expand...

Up until now she was doing fine with her meds but now she exhibits all the symptoms of a crack smoker.


----------



## Coyote

S.J. said:


> Muslims lead the world in child brides, regardless of the ethnical makeup of the countries they live in.  *If a country is 55% Christian and 45% muslim, and all of the child bride cases are muslims, it's still muslims who are the offenders even though technically it's a "Christian country".*  You are failing in your attempt to dismiss muslim pedophilia.



That really is retarded.

How do you explain Nicaraqua - also in the top twenty?  Not a single Muslim to blame that on.  Third highest - Central African Republic - 80% Christian, Dominican Republic 95% Roman Catholic, no percentage listed for Muslim.  Perhaps you have some data to show it's "all Muslims" who are the offenders but somehow I doubt it.

Your attempt to claim it's all Muslims is truly pathetic.


----------



## Coyote

Roudy said:


> S.J. said:
> 
> 
> 
> Muslims lead the world in child brides, regardless of the ethnical makeup of the countries they live in.  If a country is 55% Christian and 45% muslim, and all of the child bride cases are muslims, it's still muslims who are the offenders even though technically it's a "Christian country".  You are failing in your attempt to dismiss muslim pedophilia.
> 
> 
> 
> Yet despite Muslims leading the world in child brides and etc.  Our local Islam defenders sit here and repeat: "It has nothing to do with Islam, it has nothing to do with Islam, it has nothing to do with Islam..."
Click to expand...


Once again Roudy, you prove yourself a liar.  No one says it has "nothing" to do with relgion only that religion is a lesser than others such as poverty.

On the other hand you claim it's all religion.


----------



## Coyote

Roudy said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> Top Ten Facts About Child Brides
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 1. Worldwide, an estimated 51 million girls younger than 18 are child brides.
> 
> 
> 2. The majority of child marriages occur in *West and East Africa and South Asia*.
> 
> 3. Over the next decade, another 100 million girls will become child brides.
> 
> 4. Child marriage endangers girls.  Child brides experience *a higher incidence of domestic violence*, marital abuse (including physical, sexual or psychological abuse) and abandonment.
> 
> 5. Child marriage increases maternal mortality and infant mortality rates.
> 
> 6. *Many child brides are well below 15.* Although the median age of marriage for child brides is 15, some as young as 7 or 8 are forced into marriage.
> 
> 7. Risk factors for young teen girls who give birth are greatly increased.  Girls who become pregnant under age 15 are five times more likely to die in childbirth than women who give birth in their 20s.
> 
> 8. Sexual disparity in child marriages increases risk of AIDS.
> Because many often marry older men with more sexual experience, child brides face a higher risk of contracting HIV.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Been there done that about 10 times so far.  *The evidence that Islam is the main cause of child brides among Muslims is overwhelming and factual*.  Get over it and move on.
Click to expand...


Not according to the human rights organizations.  Keep ignoring the facts.


----------



## Coyote

Hossfly said:


> toastman said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hossfly said:
> 
> 
> 
> After reading SJs post, your reply makes no sense at all and causes me to fear for your sanity.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Only NOW you are fearing her sanity ?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Up until now she was doing fine with her meds but now she exhibits all the symptoms of a crack smoker.
Click to expand...


Her sanity is just fine.  SJ needs to provide some facts to back up his claim.  Don't blame his idiocy on Sherri.


----------



## Roudy

Hossfly said:


> toastman said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hossfly said:
> 
> 
> 
> After reading SJs post, your reply makes no sense at all and causes me to fear for your sanity.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Only NOW you are fearing her sanity ?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Up until now she was doing fine with her meds but now she exhibits all the symptoms of a crack smoker.
Click to expand...

Sounds more like Crystal Meth to me.  LOL


----------



## Roudy

Coyote said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> Top Ten Facts About Child Brides
> 
> 
> 
> Been there done that about 10 times so far.  *The evidence that Islam is the main cause of child brides among Muslims is overwhelming and factual*.  Get over it and move on.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Not according to the human rights organizations.  Keep ignoring the facts.
Click to expand...

UNICEF says prevelence of child brides occurs the most among Muslims, and with the most frequency in Muslim majority countries.  I've shown you the link.  What say you...nada: "it's cultural, Islam has nothing to do with it."  This is getting really boring.


----------



## Hossfly

Jos said:


> Hossfly said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jos said:
> 
> 
> 
> NPN Article: Judaism's Pedophilia Begins with Rabbi ben Yohai
> 
> 
> 
> I'll defer to some of the Judaic Studies scholars here. Tale it away, Irosie.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> They will not "tale it away" they will ignore it, as they always ignore the truth
Click to expand...

I guess Yousef Mohammed doesn't mind if the Muslims ignore the sexual abuses of the boys and girls in the madrassas and mosques and also in their homes.  In fact, if a Muslim parent does speak up, Yousef tells them to keep it under their headpiece.  I think we all realize that there is much sexual abuse among every group in the world, but Yousef thinks it mainly goes on among non Muslims.   Meanwhile, Yousef does have a lot to look forward to.   Can he handle it???
Muslim Men Enjoy Around 20,000 Women in Heaven: Saudi Cleric [VIDEO] - International Business Times


----------



## Roudy

Coyote said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> S.J. said:
> 
> 
> 
> Muslims lead the world in child brides, regardless of the ethnical makeup of the countries they live in.  If a country is 55% Christian and 45% muslim, and all of the child bride cases are muslims, it's still muslims who are the offenders even though technically it's a "Christian country".  You are failing in your attempt to dismiss muslim pedophilia.
> 
> 
> 
> Yet despite Muslims leading the world in child brides and etc.  Our local Islam defenders sit here and repeat: "It has nothing to do with Islam, it has nothing to do with Islam, it has nothing to do with Islam..."
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Once again Roudy, you prove yourself a liar.  No one says it has "nothing" to do with relgion only that religion is a lesser than others such as poverty.
> 
> On the other hand you claim it's all religion.
Click to expand...

I claim in Muslim societies religion has the most influence, and the numbers, and what Muslims themselves say, clearly prove this.  You are the liar.


----------



## Coyote

Roudy said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Been there done that about 10 times so far.  *The evidence that Islam is the main cause of child brides among Muslims is overwhelming and factual*.  Get over it and move on.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Not according to the human rights organizations.  Keep ignoring the facts.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> UNICEF says *prevelence of child brides occurs the most among Muslims*, and with the most frequency in Muslim majority countries.  I've shown you the link.  What say you...nada: "it's cultural, Islam has nothing to do with it."  This is getting really boring.
Click to expand...


UNICEF also says it occurs most in rural poorer areas.  I've posted multiple links where poverty is stated as a major contributing factor across the board.  If you look at the list of nations, repeatedly posted, you will see that the religions in the nations with the highest rates are not just or even mostly Muslim. Ignoring the facts much?

And, yes - it's getting boring.  No one has said religion *has nothing* to do with it. Clearly it does.  But it is not the *main *factor - not even UNICEF claims that it's just religion in Muslim countries.


----------



## Coyote

Roudy said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yet despite Muslims leading the world in child brides and etc.  Our local Islam defenders sit here and repeat: "It has nothing to do with Islam, it has nothing to do with Islam, it has nothing to do with Islam..."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Once again Roudy, you prove yourself a liar.  No one says it has "nothing" to do with relgion only that religion is a lesser than others such as poverty.
> 
> On the other hand you claim it's all religion.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I claim in Muslim societies religion has the most influence, and the numbers, and what Muslims themselves say, clearly prove this.  You are the liar.
Click to expand...


And I dispute that. Poverty is the largest driver - families sell their children.  The fact that you don't see this as much in more affluent and educated districts speaks volumes.  What happend when this story broke the news?  Even though it was proven false in the end - Muslims were outraged in Kuwait and put pressure on the Yemeni government to do something.


----------



## Coyote

Why is child marriage so rampant in India?

http://www.unicef.org/india/Child_Marriage_Fact_Sheet_Nov2011_final.pdf


----------



## JohnA

Hossfly said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hossfly said:
> 
> 
> 
> So, Yousef Mohammed, would it make you happy if we post many, many articles about Muslim men abusing children not only in Muslim countries but in Europe as well, especially those teachers in madrassas and clergy in the mosques.  Of course, there would be even more articles if Muslim parents spoke up about this, but as one Muslim father had previously said in an article, when he was going to report what happened to his children in a madrassas, the other parents told him to keep quiet.  By the way, Yousef, could you tell us what your hero, Ayatollah Khomeni, had to say about rules for sex?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Are you concerned about child abuse and child marriages?  Or does it only concern you when it's Muslims?
> 
> The countries where the highest number of child marriages occur span religions.  Hindu's even have a festival celebrating child brides as business transactions.  Muslims, Hindus, Christians, Jews in western countries and educated affluent regions seldom approve of child marriages.
> 
> There was considerable public outrage in other Muslim countries over the situation in the OP forcing the Yemeni government to make a change in it's laws.  This seems indicative of change at the public level regarding child marriage in Muslim countries.  I'm not sure how much effect it will have - Yemen is desperately poor and that is a major driver in child marriages around the world.  They are rare in affluent well educated countries and communities regardless of religion.  It's a shame people can't notice things like that and instead focus on demonizing Islam as a whole.
> 
> The OP here is promoting an excellent discussion - a much needed discussion.  it's also seperating out those who simply want to demonize Islam and those are concerned with child abuse and child marriages.
> 
> Interestingly, few seem to want to remark on child abuse or the abuse of women outside of Muslim countries or explore reasons beyond religion.  No one is saying religion is not a factor at all (I predict someone is going to claim that is what is being said) - but it is not the primary factor.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I'm not concerned only because it involves Muslims. What concerns me is the fact that Islam incorporates paedophilia into it's religion and the other major religions don't. And what's odd is the impression that you seem to be defending the sickening practice.
Click to expand...


 i quess priests fucking litle boys dont count


----------



## Hossfly

JohnA said:


> Hossfly said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> Are you concerned about child abuse and child marriages?  Or does it only concern you when it's Muslims?
> 
> The countries where the highest number of child marriages occur span religions.  Hindu's even have a festival celebrating child brides as business transactions.  Muslims, Hindus, Christians, Jews in western countries and educated affluent regions seldom approve of child marriages.
> 
> There was considerable public outrage in other Muslim countries over the situation in the OP forcing the Yemeni government to make a change in it's laws.  This seems indicative of change at the public level regarding child marriage in Muslim countries.  I'm not sure how much effect it will have - Yemen is desperately poor and that is a major driver in child marriages around the world.  They are rare in affluent well educated countries and communities regardless of religion.  It's a shame people can't notice things like that and instead focus on demonizing Islam as a whole.
> 
> The OP here is promoting an excellent discussion - a much needed discussion.  it's also seperating out those who simply want to demonize Islam and those are concerned with child abuse and child marriages.
> 
> Interestingly, few seem to want to remark on child abuse or the abuse of women outside of Muslim countries or explore reasons beyond religion.  No one is saying religion is not a factor at all (I predict someone is going to claim that is what is being said) - but it is not the primary factor.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not concerned only because it involves Muslims. What concerns me is the fact that Islam incorporates paedophilia into it's religion and the other major religions don't. And what's odd is the impression that you seem to be defending the sickening practice.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> i quess priests fucking litle boys dont count
Click to expand...

Who invited you? Knock before entering and wipe your muddy paws.


----------



## S.J.

Coyote said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> Once again Roudy, you prove yourself a liar.  No one says it has "nothing" to do with relgion only that religion is a lesser than others such as poverty.
> 
> On the other hand you claim it's all religion.
> 
> 
> 
> I claim in Muslim societies religion has the most influence, and the numbers, and what Muslims themselves say, clearly prove this.  You are the liar.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> And I dispute that. Poverty is the largest driver - families sell their children.  The fact that you don't see this as much in more affluent and educated districts speaks volumes.  What happend when this story broke the news?  Even though it was proven false in the end - Muslims were outraged in Kuwait and put pressure on the Yemeni government to do something.
Click to expand...

I don't see any outrage from muslims about anything.  They don't show outrage over terrorism OR pedophilia, both sanctioned by the Koran.


----------



## SherriMunnerlyn

This is what I am reading UNICEF is saying about child marriages:



A complex issue with deep roots

Child marriage, which has existed for centuries, is a complex issue, routed deeply in gender inequality, tradition and poverty. The practice is most common in rural and impoverished areas, where prospects for girls can be limited. In many cases, parents arrange these marriages and young girls have no choice.Poor families marry off young daughters to reduce the number of children they need to feed, clothe and educate. In some cultures, a major incentive is the price prospective husbands will pay for young brides.Social pressures within a community can lead families to wed young children. For example, some cultures believe marrying girls before they reach puberty will bring blessings on families. Some societies believe that early marriage will protect young girls from sexual attacks and violence and see it as a way to insure that their daughter will not become pregnant out of wedlock and bring dishonour to the family.Too, many families marry their daughters simply because early marriage is the only option they know.&#8220;

Many faith leaders and their communities are already working to end child marriage and other forms of violence against children. Changing stubborn behavior is immensely challenging, so we must go further to positively influence beliefs and actions,&#8221; says Tim Costello, Chief Executive of World Vision Australia."

UNICEF - Press centre - Child Marriages: 39,000 Every Day


----------



## irosie91

Coyote said:


> S.J. said:
> 
> 
> 
> Muslims lead the world in child brides, regardless of the ethnical makeup of the countries they live in.  *If a country is 55% Christian and 45% muslim, and all of the child bride cases are muslims, it's still muslims who are the offenders even though technically it's a "Christian country".*  You are failing in your attempt to dismiss muslim pedophilia.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That really is retarded.
> 
> How do you explain Nicaraqua - also in the top twenty?  Not a single Muslim to blame that on.  Third highest - Central African Republic - 80% Christian, Dominican Republic 95% Roman Catholic, no percentage listed for Muslim.  Perhaps you have some data to show it's "all Muslims" who are the offenders but somehow I doubt it.
> 
> Your attempt to claim it's all Muslims is truly pathetic.
Click to expand...



Your attempt to claim that anyone said   "its all muslim"    is infinitely pathetic----the above claim is that muslims do it "more" -----I will help you----in general the person of at least 
average intelligence would interpret that statement to mean that the phenomenon exists 
a bit more amongst muslims than other  "groups"     -----proportionately.    In any case----"child marriage" is not even the topic of this thread-----the topic is a 40 year old  "husband"  Pounding a 8 year old to death.     
Your analysis which is that if a country had a  christian majority and a muslim minority------than  any   child marriage statistic  MUST  be  equally shared 
by the two groups proportionately  is about the most absurd idea I have encountered this week------besices sherri's contention that the shiites and sunnis hate each other because 
JOOOOOOS tell them to.


----------



## SherriMunnerlyn

irosie91 said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> S.J. said:
> 
> 
> 
> Muslims lead the world in child brides, regardless of the ethnical makeup of the countries they live in.  *If a country is 55% Christian and 45% muslim, and all of the child bride cases are muslims, it's still muslims who are the offenders even though technically it's a "Christian country".*  You are failing in your attempt to dismiss muslim pedophilia.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That really is retarded.
> 
> How do you explain Nicaraqua - also in the top twenty?  Not a single Muslim to blame that on.  Third highest - Central African Republic - 80% Christian, Dominican Republic 95% Roman Catholic, no percentage listed for Muslim.  Perhaps you have some data to show it's "all Muslims" who are the offenders but somehow I doubt it.
> 
> Your attempt to claim it's all Muslims is truly pathetic.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Your attempt to claim that anyone said   "its all muslim"    is infinitely pathetic----the above claim is that muslims do it "more" -----I will help you----in general the person of at least
> average intelligence would interpret that statement to mean that the phenomenon exists
> a bit more amongst muslims than other  "groups"     -----proportionately.    In any case----"child marriage" is not even the topic of this thread-----the topic is a 40 year old  "husband"  to death.     Your analysis which is that if a country had a  christian majority and a muslim minority------than  any   child marriage statistic  MUST  be  equally shared
> by the two groups proportionately  is about the most absurd idea I have encountered this week------besices sherri's contention that the shiites and sunnis hate each other because
> JOOOOOOS tell them to.
Click to expand...


That is a baseless claim, Muslims do it more.

The country where the largest numbers of child marriages occur is India.


----------



## Roudy

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> irosie91 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> That really is retarded.
> 
> How do you explain Nicaraqua - also in the top twenty?  Not a single Muslim to blame that on.  Third highest - Central African Republic - 80% Christian, Dominican Republic 95% Roman Catholic, no percentage listed for Muslim.  Perhaps you have some data to show it's "all Muslims" who are the offenders but somehow I doubt it.
> 
> Your attempt to claim it's all Muslims is truly pathetic.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Your attempt to claim that anyone said   "its all muslim"    is infinitely pathetic----the above claim is that muslims do it "more" -----I will help you----in general the person of at least
> average intelligence would interpret that statement to mean that the phenomenon exists
> a bit more amongst muslims than other  "groups"     -----proportionately.    In any case----"child marriage" is not even the topic of this thread-----the topic is a 40 year old  "husband"  to death.     Your analysis which is that if a country had a  christian majority and a muslim minority------than  any   child marriage statistic  MUST  be  equally shared
> by the two groups proportionately  is about the most absurd idea I have encountered this week------besices sherri's contention that the shiites and sunnis hate each other because
> JOOOOOOS tell them to.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> That is a baseless claim, Muslims do it more.
> 
> The country where the largest numbers of child marriages occur is India.
Click to expand...


I love it how you people just love to stick your hoofs into your own mouths!  

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_marriage

The Child Marriage Restraint Act, 1929 was passed during the tenure of British rule on pre-partition India. It forbade the marriage of a male younger than 21 or a female younger than 18 for Hindus, Buddhists, Christians and most people of India.* However, this law did not and currently does not apply to India's 165 million Muslim population, and only applies to India's Hindu, Christian, Jain, Sikh and other religious minorities. **This link of law and religion was formalized by the British colonial rule with the Muslim personal laws codified in the Indian Muslim Personal Law (Shariat) Application Act of 1937*. *The age at which India's Muslim girl can legally marry, according to this Muslim Personal Law, is 9 years, and can be lower if her guardian (wali) decides she is sexually mature*.[70][71] Over the last 25 years, All India Muslim Personal Law Board and other Muslim civil organizations have actively opposed India-wide laws and enforcement action against child marriages; *they have argued that Indian Muslim families have a religious right to marry a girl when her age is 15 or even 12.[72] Several states of India claim specially high child marriage rates in their Muslim and tribal communities.*

*Checkmate.

"NO MORE QUESTIONS YOUR HONOR"*


----------



## SherriMunnerlyn




----------



## SherriMunnerlyn

Junior high schools in the US do not even accept Wikipedia as a source for students to use.


----------



## SherriMunnerlyn

And your own Jewish biased source does not even support the erroneous claim that most child marriages in India are by Muslims.


----------



## SherriMunnerlyn

Hindu Child Marriage (scriptures)

According to the Parashar Smitri and Sheeghrabodha the marriageable girls were divided into five categories:1) Nagnika or naked. A girl seven years old or younger. This was regarded as best age for marriage.2) Gauri. A girl eight years old.3) Rohini. A girl of nine years old.4) Kanya. A ten years old girl.5) Rajaswala. A girl above ten years old.According to Vaikhnasa, a Brahmin should marry a Nagnika since that is the best match. According to Marici the best age of marriage for a girl is five years old. Brahmapurana also prescribes marriage in childhood. Failure to do this will condemn the parents or gaurdian to utmost degradation.img src="http://www.anusha.com/childmar.jpg"

Hindu Child Marriage (scriptures)

Look at that, a belief a part of Hinduism that says failure to follow rules prescribed for child marriage will result in degradation.


----------



## SherriMunnerlyn

Can even one poster say they have no ancestors who married before the age of 18?

My own parents eloped their senior year of high school, marrying at age 17.


----------



## MHunterB

So now the l'il sherriliar has pimped the anti-Semitic canard of 'Jews control the media' in support of her efforts to delegitimate 'Wiki' as a source, citing a shameful hate video from YouTube as though THAT souce is any more objective.

And then the sherriKKKins follows up with some anecdotal nonsense apparently in support of child marriage - whereas she previously insisted she didn't approve of same....

Perhaps if the blattoid shrew didn't slither down past the 'David Duke' level of irrelevancy in her desire to 'defend Islam' (which isn't desired OR required here!) - she might have retained an iota of credibility.

As it is, she has committed herself to opposing ANY citation or information from Wikipedia on ANY topic ever......

Need I point out the obvious, that Wiki readers are constantly 'fact-checking' its articles - and that the YouTube videos like the one the sherrifilthmonger prefers as a 'source' have no such oversight?


----------



## Coyote

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> And your own Jewish biased source *does not even support the erroneous claim that most child marriages in India are by Muslims*.



Wikipedia is not a Jewish based source.

But it's true - it doesn't.  And Roudy's shouting is not going to change that.

Roudy ignores the fact that India is one of the top ranking nations for child marriage and even in the states specifically listed as worst in India the demographics are still 80-99% Hindu.  He also ignores the fact that the Hindu religion endorses child marriage and even has a festival to promote it.  Of course, in India like in many of these countries poverty is a huge driver.  Even Roudy's UNICEF sources state that while religion can be a factor - poverty is the first one listed.  Address poverty, education, religion - enforce national laws - and it will go a long ways towards resolving the problem.


----------



## MHunterB

So who is the 'author' of that YouTube video, l'il sherriKKKins?   
Some anonymous hater who has an avvie of US/UK/Israeli flags titled 'Axis of Evil'.

I guess that pretty well describes your own view, then?  You are promoting and endorsing such hatred against the American people as a whole by pimping that hate speech here.


----------



## MHunterB

Has anyone found any information which would explain the presence of Nicaragua in the 'top 20'?

It appears to be an anomaly - geographically and culturally.  I don't see in the literature any suggestion that the indigenous peoples of Nicaragua OR their European-descended OR African-descended neighbors are culturally unique in any way which would promote child marriage.....

Admittedly, as I noted before, the reporting is surely incomplete and flawed - but it's what there is available.


----------



## Coyote

MHunterB said:


> Has anyone found any information which would explain the presence of Nicaragua in the 'top 20'?
> 
> It appears to be an anomaly - geographically and culturally.  I don't see in the literature any suggestion that the indigenous peoples of Nicaragua OR their European-descended OR African-descended neighbors are culturally unique in any way which would promote child marriage.....
> 
> Admittedly, as I noted before, the reporting is surely incomplete and flawed - but it's what there is available.



It's not really such an anomaly - people assume it's just Africa/ME but it's not.  Latin America has a good bit of it.  Mexico has minimum age for marriage at 12.  Dominican Republic is also high on the list.





At a guess - poverty, lack of education, traditional cultures where virginity is prized?

Edited to add: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_marriage#Latin_America
Child marriage is common in Latin America and the Caribbean island nations. About 29% of girls are married before age 18.[111] The child marriage incidence rates varies between the countries, with Dominican Republic, Honduras, Brazil, Guatemala, Nicaragua, Haiti and Ecuador reporting some of the highest rates in the Americas.[112] Bolivia and Guyana have shown the sharpest decline in child marriage rates in recent times.[113]* Poverty and lack of laws mandating minimum age for marriage* have been cited as reasons of child marriage in Latin America.[114][115]


----------



## SherriMunnerlyn

Nicaragua is the second poorest country in Latin America after Haiti.*Poverty is largely a rural problem in Nicaragua, although there are pockets of poverty in the capital, Managua, and in other urban areas. Close to half (43 per cent) of the people in Nicaragua live in rural areas. Two out of three of them (68 per cent) struggle to survive on little more than US$1 per day.Households headed by women, young people under 15 years of age and indigenous people are among the poorest and most disadvantaged groups in rural Nicaragua . About 17 per cent of rural households are managed by women, but only 15 per cent of women hold title to land under their own names, and they receive only 11 per cent of loans. Most rural women cultivate land that is not theirs.*

home - Rural Poverty Portal


----------



## Coyote

I think the issue of child marriage is a complex one around the world, and I agree - religion is a factor (at least Muslim and Hindu).  But in almost all of those regions you also have a great deal of poverty, traditional cultures and tribal councils or Sharia courts that work against national, secular law.  You also have societies where educating girls (thus increasing their worth) is not considered worthwhile so girls are a drain on their family and their value is in their bride price.  It would be nice to discuss this without generic and total bashing of an entire religion since where religion plays a role in the problem it will also need to play a role in fixing it.  Marge, I appreciate your ability to do that 

So what are the solutions?

Setting and enforcing minimum age laws for one.  More and more countries have set a minimum age varying from 15 (with consent of family) to 18 but some still as young as 9, 12, 13 or nothing.






Educating women and increasing their value for another.

Confronting religious and cultural traditions that condone early marriage.

This is where modern religious leaders need to step up and promote religous values and interpretations that are in line with modern human rights standards.  It's not necessarily contradictory in either Hindu or Muslim faiths - the material is there, it just needs to be enforced.

I think, ultimately though - you also need a heavy hand in enforcing minimum age because traditional cultures are very slow to change particularly when poverty is a huge factor.  In India, the only way to stop the practice of Sati was a ban by the British, that was militarily enforced. It still occurs, but it's rare and modern Hindu doctrine now forbids it.


----------



## Moonglow

When the average life span of humans was around 32 years of age I can see why cultures adopted the policy of child brides and grooms.


----------



## Hossfly

Moonglow said:


> When the average life span of humans was around 32 years of age I can see why cultures adopted the policy of child brides and grooms.


That's the most logical reason brought up so far in this thread. You win a seegar!


----------



## irosie91

Coyote said:


> MHunterB said:
> 
> 
> 
> Has anyone found any information which would explain the presence of Nicaragua in the 'top 20'?
> 
> It appears to be an anomaly - geographically and culturally.  I don't see in the literature any suggestion that the indigenous peoples of Nicaragua OR their European-descended OR African-descended neighbors are culturally unique in any way which would promote child marriage.....
> 
> Admittedly, as I noted before, the reporting is surely incomplete and flawed - but it's what there is available.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's not really such an anomaly - people assume it's just Africa/ME but it's not.  Latin America has a good bit of it.  Mexico has minimum age for marriage at 12.  Dominican Republic is also high on the list.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> At a guess - poverty, lack of education, traditional cultures where virginity is prized?
> 
> Edited to add: Child marriage - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> Child marriage is common in Latin America and the Caribbean island nations. About 29% of girls are married before age 18.[111] The child marriage incidence rates varies between the countries, with Dominican Republic, Honduras, Brazil, Guatemala, Nicaragua, Haiti and Ecuador reporting some of the highest rates in the Americas.[112] Bolivia and Guyana have shown the sharpest decline in child marriage rates in recent times.[113]* Poverty and lack of laws mandating minimum age for marriage* have been cited as reasons of child marriage in Latin America.[114][115]
Click to expand...




re   "poverty,  lack of edcuation, traditional cultures"       the first lesson in LOGICAL 
      ANALYSIS OF DATA is  

           ****CORRELATION IS  NOT  CAUSATION*******

  Now for that which some cynical rude people call  "lies"   ----I have had lots 
  of inteaction with lots of people from LOTS OF CULTURES -----try to focus  
  Coyote.      The big time symbol of  FEMININITY  and  WOMANHOOD   
  amongst many many south american hispanics I have known well is 

                 HAVING A BABY     (in fact----married or not----however in lands 
                 without social welfare------a husband is a must for obvious reasons)

Even in the USA-----baby care is in the hands of the grandma------the mother is often
too young..     The good news is that both grandma's often participate---whether 
the couple is married or not,      WORLD HEALTH STATS are created by---collecting 
counry stats-------they do not have to match actual marriage registry stats.    In fact---
even in the USA they don't.     If you say you are married to someone-----you show 
up as  "married"  -----I will summarize------Having a baby among lots and lots of 
south american girls -----PROVES SHE CAN DO IT   (I am familiar with this social 
phenomenon in the USA---it has been described to me-----by girls of south 
american background----my best information came to me from a very bright 
girl in her early 20s whose parents nagged her   to  "HAVE A BABY----DON'T 
WORRY,   WE'LL TAKE CARE OF IT"        The young lady answered my query   
   "do you ever consider the idea of marrying and having the standard kind 
    of family life of  married couple with kids"?

   Her answer was----"NO ONE IN MY FAMILY EVER DID IT THAT WAY-----NOT 
   MY MOTHER OR AUNTS OR GRANDPARENTS----WHY SHOULD I STICK MYSELF 
   WITH A HUSBAND"??

If a woman claims she is  married on the maternity ward-----that information 
shows up on the birth certificate of the baby------and the stats.     at least in 
the USA------and probably more likely so in south america.     Did you have to 
present a marriage license to your Obstetrician?    You just answered on 
the dotted line

Getting back to islamic societies-----girls are kept in seclusion -----they have 
no opportunity to go out and PROVE THEIR WOMANHOOD by getting 
pregnant------they go from the kitchen of their mother to the kitchen of their 
mother-in-law.           They go to the stream to get water in GROUPS and VEILED.
and to the market place ONLY IN THE COMPANY OF FATHER OR BROTHERS

   btw---that  "anything under 18 is child marriage"  thing is screwing up 
   anything approaching a reasonable perspective.    It is lumping lots of 
   consensual love marriages up with forced marriage and an eight year 
   old being pounded to death by a 40 year old.     Anyone got stats on eight 
   year old girls ---handed over IN HOLY MATRIMONY----complete with 
   three days of community celebration  -----and religious ritual?.    The 
   answer to the cultural and ethical view in the classically shariah society of 
   Yemen to this event will be elucidated later.    My guess is that the man 
   will be  "forgiven"   by the parents and forego the small sum which would 
   be the blood money.    He might demand the  mahr back


----------



## Coyote

irosie91 said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MHunterB said:
> 
> 
> 
> Has anyone found any information which would explain the presence of Nicaragua in the 'top 20'?
> 
> It appears to be an anomaly - geographically and culturally.  I don't see in the literature any suggestion that the indigenous peoples of Nicaragua OR their European-descended OR African-descended neighbors are culturally unique in any way which would promote child marriage.....
> 
> Admittedly, as I noted before, the reporting is surely incomplete and flawed - but it's what there is available.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's not really such an anomaly - people assume it's just Africa/ME but it's not.  Latin America has a good bit of it.  Mexico has minimum age for marriage at 12.  Dominican Republic is also high on the list.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> At a guess - poverty, lack of education, traditional cultures where virginity is prized?
> 
> Edited to add: Child marriage - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> Child marriage is common in Latin America and the Caribbean island nations. About 29% of girls are married before age 18.[111] The child marriage incidence rates varies between the countries, with Dominican Republic, Honduras, Brazil, Guatemala, Nicaragua, Haiti and Ecuador reporting some of the highest rates in the Americas.[112] Bolivia and Guyana have shown the sharpest decline in child marriage rates in recent times.[113]* Poverty and lack of laws mandating minimum age for marriage* have been cited as reasons of child marriage in Latin America.[114][115]
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> re   "poverty,  lack of edcuation, traditional cultures"       the first lesson in LOGICAL
> ANALYSIS OF DATA is
> 
> ****CORRELATION IS  NOT  CAUSATION*******
Click to expand...

 
I absolutely agree - correlation is not (necessarily) causation - it can be, but you need to look at the data.

I think however a pretty good case can be made to poverty in conjunction with the relative value of girls in those societies.  There is income to be had in a daughters bride price and unlike a son, who is expected to go out and work and bring money in, the daughter is a drain on family resourcese.



> Now for that which some cynical rude people call  "lies"   ----I have had lots
> of inteaction with lots of people from LOTS OF CULTURES -----try to focus
> Coyote.      The big time symbol of  FEMININITY  and  WOMANHOOD
> amongst many many south american hispanics I have known well is
> 
> HAVING A BABY     (in fact----married or not----however in lands
> without social welfare------a husband is a must for obvious reasons)
> 
> Even in the USA-----baby care is in the hands of the grandma------the mother is often
> too young..     The good news is that both grandma's often participate---whether
> the couple is married or not,      WORLD HEALTH STATS are created by---collecting
> counry stats-------they do not have to match actual marriage registry stats.    In fact---
> even in the USA they don't.     If you say you are married to someone-----you show
> up as  "married"  -----I will summarize------Having a baby among lots and lots of
> south american girls -----PROVES SHE CAN DO IT   (I am familiar with this social
> phenomenon in the USA---it has been described to me-----by girls of south
> american background----my best information came to me from a very bright
> girl in her early 20s whose parents nagged her   to  "HAVE A BABY----DON'T
> WORRY,   WE'LL TAKE CARE OF IT"        The young lady answered my query
> "do you ever consider the idea of marrying and having the standard kind
> of family life of  married couple with kids"?
> 
> Her answer was----"NO ONE IN MY FAMILY EVER DID IT THAT WAY-----NOT
> MY MOTHER OR AUNTS OR GRANDPARENTS----WHY SHOULD I STICK MYSELF
> WITH A HUSBAND"??
> 
> If a woman claims she is  married on the maternity ward-----that information
> shows up on the birth certificate of the baby------and the stats.     at least in
> the USA------and probably more likely so in south america.     Did you have to
> present a marriage license to your Obstetrician?    You just answered on
> the dotted line



Interesting.  I do not know much about Latin American societies.   



> Getting back to islamic societies-----girls are kept in seclusion -----they have
> no opportunity to go out and PROVE THEIR WOMANHOOD by getting
> pregnant------they go from the kitchen of their mother to the kitchen of their
> mother-in-law.           They go to the stream to get water in GROUPS and VEILED.
> and to the market place ONLY IN THE COMPANY OF FATHER OR BROTHERS



Agree - though the degree of restriction depends upon the society.



> btw---*that  "anything under 18 is child marriage"  thing is screwing up
> anything approaching a reasonable perspective. *   It is lumping lots of
> consensual love marriages up with forced marriage and an eight year
> old being pounded to death by a 40 year old.     Anyone got stats on eight
> year old girls ---handed over IN HOLY MATRIMONY----complete with
> three days of community celebration  -----and religious ritual?.    The
> answer to the cultural and ethical view in the classically shariah society of
> Yemen to this event will be elucidated later.    My guess is that the man
> will be  "forgiven"   by the parents and forego the small sum which would
> be the blood money.    He might demand the  mahr back



I agree with that.  In terms of health issues, maturity, and ability to get out of poverty - marriage below 16 is probably most critical.  However, UNICEF and the other sources do make distinctions based on age.


----------



## irosie91

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> irosie91 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> That really is retarded.
> 
> How do you explain Nicaraqua - also in the top twenty?  Not a single Muslim to blame that on.  Third highest - Central African Republic - 80% Christian, Dominican Republic 95% Roman Catholic, no percentage listed for Muslim.  Perhaps you have some data to show it's "all Muslims" who are the offenders but somehow I doubt it.
> 
> Your attempt to claim it's all Muslims is truly pathetic.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Your attempt to claim that anyone said   "its all muslim"    is infinitely pathetic----the above claim is that muslims do it "more" -----I will help you----in general the person of at least
> average intelligence would interpret that statement to mean that the phenomenon exists
> a bit more amongst muslims than other  "groups"     -----proportionately.    In any case----"child marriage" is not even the topic of this thread-----the topic is a 40 year old  "husband"  to death.     Your analysis which is that if a country had a  christian majority and a muslim minority------than  any   child marriage statistic  MUST  be  equally shared
> by the two groups proportionately  is about the most absurd idea I have encountered this week------besices sherri's contention that the shiites and sunnis hate each other because
> JOOOOOOS tell them to.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> That is a baseless claim, Muslims do it more.
> 
> The country where the largest numbers of child marriages occur is India.
Click to expand...



try again  sherri------I have repeatedly commented that this case is about a  40 year old 
man-----handed an eight year old bride by her own parents-----who he then pounded 
to death.     You got stats on little girls being pounded to death in India?     I have 
interacted with LOTS AND LOTS of people   from southeast asia-----as I have often noted.
Marriage in India amongst hindus puts the girl in the mother-in-law's kitchen.   In fact----
the mother-in-law,  daughter-in-law  relationship is EXTREMELY close.    A cultural 
norm is for the 12 year old girl to quite indignantly avoid her 15 year old husband.   
Mahatma Gandhi was 12 when he married his 12 year old bride-----thereafter he barely 
saw her whilst they were still children.    These are the typical circumstances of early 
marriage described to me in detail by Hindus I have known.     I have come across---
in the medical literature in the past 50 years ---one reported case of a man in his twenties 
pounding his little  10 year old bride to death in India.    Isn't dead little girl bride 
the topic of this thread?       The indian doctors who reported the case were horrified 
that  "a man so well edcuated that he spoke english well----would do such a thing"

I think Marie Antoinette was 17 when she married  LOUIS      Was that a child 
marriage too?

    Dim as she was----history reports she was a lot more vivacious than was he.

    you have any information as to how this case is going to be handled by 
    the Yemeni judiciary?------according to islamic law----the man is entirely 
    guiltless no matter how much the little girl screamed,    Investigation of 
    this case reveals that the man's tribe is doing  a coverup.    The social 
    activist who reported the incident should watch his back


----------



## irosie91

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> Junior high schools in the US do not even accept Wikipedia as a source for students to use.




When I was in Junior High-----the teachers did not accept any Encyclopedias 
as source material for  WRITTEN PAPERS        ie those damned  "term 
papers"-------what is your point?        When citing ANY SOURCE BOOK ---be 
aware that they are not  DIVINELY INSPIRED     (except, of course-----the history 
text of  HERODOTUS,  THE GREEK)


----------



## Truthseeker420

Moonglow said:


> SANAA (Reuters) - An eight-year-old Yemeni girl died of internal bleeding on her wedding night after marrying a man five times her age, a social activist and two local residents said, in a case that has caused an outcry in the media and revived debate about child brides.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "On the wedding night and after intercourse, she suffered from bleeding and uterine rupture which caused her death," Othman told Reuters. "They took her to a clinic but the medics couldn't save her life."
> 
> Othman said authorities had not taken any action against the girl's family or her husband.t
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Many poor families in Yemen marry off young daughters to save on the costs of bringing up a child and earn extra money from the dowry given to the girl.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> This is very wrong and needs to stop.
Click to expand...


Let me guess this is on right wing Israeli news? Is there a credible link?


----------



## SherriMunnerlyn

Truthseeker420 said:


> Moonglow said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SANAA (Reuters) - An eight-year-old Yemeni girl died of internal bleeding on her wedding night after marrying a man five times her age, a social activist and two local residents said, in a case that has caused an outcry in the media and revived debate about child brides.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Many poor families in Yemen marry off young daughters to save on the costs of bringing up a child and earn extra money from the dowry given to the girl.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> This is very wrong and needs to stop.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Let me guess this is on right wing Israeli news? Is there a credible link?
Click to expand...


The story in the OP has been confirmed to be not true.

As far as who started the false storys circulation, I cannot answer that question.


----------



## Truthseeker420

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> Truthseeker420 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Moonglow said:
> 
> 
> 
> This is very wrong and needs to stop.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Let me guess this is on right wing Israeli news? Is there a credible link?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The story in the OP has been confirmed to be not true.
> 
> As far as who started the false storys circulation, I cannot answer that question.
Click to expand...


There are so many bigoted propaganda sites that put out lies every day it is hard to keep up with them.


----------



## SherriMunnerlyn

UPDATE: 8-Year-Old Yemeni Bride NOT DEAD, Shows Up In Video All Alive and Well [VIDEO]

http://au.ibtimes.com/articles/5072...ride-death-hoax-update-rawan.htm#.UkRX9qNOnFo


----------



## irosie91

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> Truthseeker420 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Moonglow said:
> 
> 
> 
> This is very wrong and needs to stop.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Let me guess this is on right wing Israeli news? Is there a credible link?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The story in the OP has been confirmed to be not true.
> 
> As far as who started the false storys circulation, I cannot answer that question.
Click to expand...



you got a link to that  "story not true"   assertion?      I know how to google ----
and do not find it.      The story was reported in   "SANAA"     remember sanaa?
It is not a city in Israel        Yemenis from Sanaa  have a reputation in Yemen----
it is something like being born in Boston  -----a condition of nobility almost 
as good as being born in Aden.

as to whether the story shows up in the Israeli press-----I will let you know,

For the record----in YEMEN----when muslims marry----the male side---pays 
a sum of money to the parents of the bride called  "mahr".     If someone tries 
to convince you that the GIRL GETS THAT MONEY-----well-----no she does not. 
HER GUARDIAN gets the money  ---ie her father. .    Theoretically----it is for 
her support should her husband dump her-----but actually in Yemen the father 
of the bride just gets to keep it.       Mahr can be a big issue once the bride's family 
accepts it-----if the bride refuses the marriage.    The economic issue of arab-islamic 
marriage is  IT IS SOMETIMES TOO EXPENSIVE FOR THE MALE SIDE----men 
are left unmarried until they are able to come up with the  MAHR

For hindu families----the economic strain is on the bride's family


----------



## SherriMunnerlyn

irosie91 said:


> SherriMunnerlyn said:
> 
> 
> 
> Junior high schools in the US do not even accept Wikipedia as a source for students to use.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> When I was in Junior High-----the teachers did not accept any Encyclopedias
> as source material for  WRITTEN PAPERS        ie those damned  "term
> papers"-------what is your point?        When citing ANY SOURCE BOOK ---be
> aware that they are not  DIVINELY INSPIRED     (except, of course-----the history
> text of  HERODOTUS,  THE GREEK)
Click to expand...


Oh, they can cite Encyclopedias, but not sources like Wikipedia that individuals can go in and edit the way they can. All kinds of opportunities to control facts and disseminate Propaganda.


----------



## Truthseeker420

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> UPDATE: 8-Year-Old Yemeni Bride NOT DEAD, Shows Up In Video All Alive and Well [VIDEO]
> 
> UPDATE: 8-Year-Old Yemeni Bride NOT DEAD, Shows Up In Video All Alive and Well [VIDEO] - International Business Times



Thank you.


----------



## SherriMunnerlyn

Credibility for Wikipedia

Because you have a right to my opinionWikipedia is a great idea, but it suffers from such such horrendous lack of credibility that it has been banned as a reference citation at all respectable schools and universities.In my article on*evaluating the credibility*of Oracle information on the web, I noted that only by providing a real identify and qualifications can the credibility of a publication be accessed.The same is true from Wikipedia. Wikipedia has a huge ultra-liberal bias, with most of the entries being made by people who have lots of free time.* For example, the Wikipedia entry for Hillary Rodham Clinton a few months ago described her with profanity as "The First B***h of the World." Kid's have no business on Wikipedia.This article*notes that librarians are working hard to discredit Wikipedia and encourage "real" authoritative references for research:"We feel strongly about our responsibility to educate our students on the good, credible and scholarly material on the Internet and discourage their pulling out the first thing they find which may or may not be accurate. . .For less than $25 you can transfer the entire Encyclopedia Britannica to your desktop or laptop for immediate access. Call me old fashioned, but that's my idea of authority."

Getting Credibility for Wikipedia


----------



## irosie91

Truthseeker420 said:


> SherriMunnerlyn said:
> 
> 
> 
> UPDATE: 8-Year-Old Yemeni Bride NOT DEAD, Shows Up In Video All Alive and Well [VIDEO]
> 
> UPDATE: 8-Year-Old Yemeni Bride NOT DEAD, Shows Up In Video All Alive and Well [VIDEO] - International Business Times
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thank you.
Click to expand...



    OH GEE   a great Miracle -----they found another  8 year old girl in Yemen
    Thanks     sherri-------you describe the same yemen I have been hearing 
    about for   decades-------a society based on baksheesh and lies


----------



## SherriMunnerlyn




----------



## MHunterB

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> UPDATE: 8-Year-Old Yemeni Bride NOT DEAD, Shows Up In Video All Alive and Well [VIDEO]
> 
> UPDATE: 8-Year-Old Yemeni Bride NOT DEAD, Shows Up In Video All Alive and Well [VIDEO] - International Business Times



So, because this specific situation is proven erroneous, that causes the issue to disappear?


----------



## SherriMunnerlyn

I am not even posting the MEMRI video, supposedly of an interview of  the allegedly previously dead  child. 

CERTAINLY sheds some light on who may have been behind this Propaganda story.


----------



## SherriMunnerlyn

MHunterB said:


> SherriMunnerlyn said:
> 
> 
> 
> UPDATE: 8-Year-Old Yemeni Bride NOT DEAD, Shows Up In Video All Alive and Well [VIDEO]
> 
> UPDATE: 8-Year-Old Yemeni Bride NOT DEAD, Shows Up In Video All Alive and Well [VIDEO] - International Business Times
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So, because this specific situation is proven erroneous, that causes the issue to disappear?
Click to expand...


The thread OP  addresses an incident that never happened.


----------



## irosie91

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> MHunterB said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SherriMunnerlyn said:
> 
> 
> 
> UPDATE: 8-Year-Old Yemeni Bride NOT DEAD, Shows Up In Video All Alive and Well [VIDEO]
> 
> UPDATE: 8-Year-Old Yemeni Bride NOT DEAD, Shows Up In Video All Alive and Well [VIDEO] - International Business Times
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So, because this specific situation is proven erroneous, that causes the issue to disappear?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The thread OP  addresses an incident that never happened.
Click to expand...



whether it happened or not remains to be discovered ----your citation proved 
nothing.     A picture of a man and a kid proves nothing.    Why would a Yemeni 
social worked lie?        He is a mossad plant?      The original article was pubished in 
the zionist city of SANAA


----------



## Coyote

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> Truthseeker420 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Moonglow said:
> 
> 
> 
> This is very wrong and needs to stop.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Let me guess this is on right wing Israeli news? Is there a credible link?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The story in the OP has been confirmed to be not true.
> 
> As far as who started the false storys circulation, I cannot answer that question.
Click to expand...


That particular story may not be true - but, it's indicative of a very real problem in Yemen.  Yemen has a reputation for child marriages.


----------



## SherriMunnerlyn

irosie91 said:


> SherriMunnerlyn said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MHunterB said:
> 
> 
> 
> So, because this specific situation is proven erroneous, that causes the issue to disappear?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The thread OP  addresses an incident that never happened.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> whether it happened or not remains to be discovered ----your citation proved
> nothing.     A picture of a man and a kid proves nothing.    Why would a Yemeni
> social worked lie?        He is a mossad plant?      The original article was pubished in
> the zionist city of SANAA
Click to expand...


What social worker? What is his name? How do we contact him? Where is the grave?


----------



## irosie91

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> I am not even posting the MEMRI video, supposedly of an interview of  the allegedly previously dead  child.
> 
> CERTAINLY sheds some light on who may have been behind this Propaganda story.




really?    Memri  interviewed the child?      I did not know that  Memri goes to Yemen 
to interview arab children.      In fact I know it does not.    What it does is publish  
translations   of material gleaned from  arab sources.     I am surprised that families 
in Yemen allowed   interviews by Israelis of their daughters-----or---for that matter ---
interviews of their daughters in general        Why be afraid to post the link?     If Memri 
shows a current interview of the same child who was reported dead in Yemen---then 
she is alive and you can prove your point--------do not be afraid


----------



## SherriMunnerlyn

Coyote said:


> SherriMunnerlyn said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Truthseeker420 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Let me guess this is on right wing Israeli news? Is there a credible link?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The story in the OP has been confirmed to be not true.
> 
> As far as who started the false storys circulation, I cannot answer that question.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> That particular story may not be true - but, it's indicative of a very real problem in Yemen.  Yemen has a reputation for child marriages.
Click to expand...


That may be true. But the problem being raised through a fictious story that paints this as an evil of Islam is not the way to discuss this global problem of child marriages, that affects peoples of many different cultures and religions.


----------



## Coyote

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SherriMunnerlyn said:
> 
> 
> 
> The story in the OP has been confirmed to be not true.
> 
> As far as who started the false storys circulation, I cannot answer that question.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That particular story may not be true - but, it's indicative of a very real problem in Yemen.  Yemen has a reputation for child marriages.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> That may be true. *But the problem being raised through a fictious story that paints this as an evil of Islam is not the way to discuss this global problem* of child marriages, that affects peoples of many different cultures and religions.
Click to expand...


I agree...well said.


----------



## irosie91

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> I am not even posting the MEMRI video, supposedly of an interview of  the allegedly previously dead  child.
> 
> CERTAINLY sheds some light on who may have been behind this Propaganda story.




who?      the two remaining jews hiding in the mountains up north?


----------



## Hollie

irosie91 said:


> SherriMunnerlyn said:
> 
> 
> 
> I am not even posting the MEMRI video, supposedly of an interview of  the allegedly previously dead  child.
> 
> CERTAINLY sheds some light on who may have been behind this Propaganda story.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> who?      the two remaining jews hiding in the mountains up north?
Click to expand...

There are two left?

Better keep that on the qt as moslems will feel a need to go on the hunt for a bit of  Peaceful Inner Struggling... of the AK-47 kind.

Moslems have been on a pogrom to purge the Jews (and all competing religions), from the Middle East per the writ of Islam's Feuher, Field Marshal General inventor. 


Only One Jewish Resident Left in Afghanistan, Says State Department | CNS News Mobile

(CNSNews.com) &#8211;(CNSNews.com) &#8211; There is only &#8220;one known Jewish resident&#8221; still living in Afghanistan, according to the U.S. State Department.

That is despite the fact that Jews have lived in Afghanistan for nearly three That is despite the fact that Jews have lived in Afghanistan for nearly three millenia, and had a local population that was 40,000 strong as of the mid-1800s, millenia, and had a local population that was 40,000 strong as of the mid-1800s, according to the according to the Jewish Virtual Library Jewish Virtual Library , a division of the American-Israeli , a division of the American-Israeli Cooperative Enterprise. Cooperative Enterprise.


----------



## SherriMunnerlyn

Wow, a discussion of child marriages leads to the plight of Jews in Afghanistan and imagined pogroms against Jews.

Truth is Israels actions have hurt Jews globally far more than anything else has since her creation in 1948.

But that picture of self as always the victim cannot be let go of, it defines who persons like Hollie are.


----------



## Jos

MHunterB said:


> SherriMunnerlyn said:
> 
> 
> 
> UPDATE: 8-Year-Old Yemeni Bride NOT DEAD, Shows Up In Video All Alive and Well [VIDEO]
> 
> UPDATE: 8-Year-Old Yemeni Bride NOT DEAD, Shows Up In Video All Alive and Well [VIDEO] - International Business Times
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So, because this specific situation is proven erroneous, that causes the issue to disappear?
Click to expand...


I'm glad she is still Alive,& un-married 
Is this girl proof that Yemeni 'child bride' rape horror never happened? Man produces eight-year-old daughter who he claims was never even married | Mail Online


----------



## Hollie

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> Wow, a discussion of child marriages leads to the plight of Jews in Afghanistan and imagined pogroms against Jews.
> 
> Truth is Israels actions have hurt Jews globally far more than anything else has since her creation in 1948.
> 
> But that picture of self as always the victim cannot be let go of, it defines who persons like Hollie are.



I'm not Jewish, dear. 

But it seems that you have been the one who enters every thread with one purpose: to promote your insensate Jooooo hatreds.


----------



## SherriMunnerlyn

Hollie said:


> SherriMunnerlyn said:
> 
> 
> 
> Wow, a discussion of child marriages leads to the plight of Jews in Afghanistan and imagined pogroms against Jews.
> 
> Truth is Israels actions have hurt Jews globally far more than anything else has since her creation in 1948.
> 
> But that picture of self as always the victim cannot be let go of, it defines who persons like Hollie are.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not Jewish, dear.
> 
> But it seems that you have been the one who enters every thread with one purpose: to promote your insensate Jooooo hatreds.
Click to expand...


I do not believe you, only Jews do not know how to spell the word Jew. 

You reek of hate for Muslims. 

No need for me to hate, I spend my time calling the haters on their Hate. 

That is what this thread has been all about, demonizing Muslims. 

And what is pathetic is how you could care less about what these children are suffering in these child marriages. Their hurting fuels your Hate.


----------



## Hollie

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SherriMunnerlyn said:
> 
> 
> 
> Wow, a discussion of child marriages leads to the plight of Jews in Afghanistan and imagined pogroms against Jews.
> 
> Truth is Israels actions have hurt Jews globally far more than anything else has since her creation in 1948.
> 
> But that picture of self as always the victim cannot be let go of, it defines who persons like Hollie are.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not Jewish, dear.
> 
> But it seems that you have been the one who enters every thread with one purpose: to promote your insensate Jooooo hatreds.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I do not believe you, only Jews do not know how to spell the word Jew.
> 
> You reek of hate for Muslims.
> 
> No need for me to hate, I spend my time calling the haters on their Hate.
> 
> That is what this thread has been all about, demonizing Muslims.
> 
> And what is pathetic is how you could care less about what these children are suffering in these child marriages. Their hurting fuels your Hate.
Click to expand...


 Oh, how you wrong me, Sherry. Here I was, making a benevolent gesture to advise that I'm not Jewish, (I have no religious faith). 

I passed an opportunity to admit to being Jewish only so that I could have a bit of fun watching as you launched into your typical, feverish, sweaty, chest-heaving joooo tirades.


----------



## SherriMunnerlyn

Hollie said:


> SherriMunnerlyn said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not Jewish, dear.
> 
> But it seems that you have been the one who enters every thread with one purpose: to promote your insensate Jooooo hatreds.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I do not believe you, only Jews do not know how to spell the word Jew.
> 
> You reek of hate for Muslims.
> 
> No need for me to hate, I spend my time calling the haters on their Hate.
> 
> That is what this thread has been all about, demonizing Muslims.
> 
> And what is pathetic is how you could care less about what these children are suffering in these child marriages. Their hurting fuels your Hate.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Oh, how you wrong me, Sherry. Here I was, making a benevolent gesture to advise that I'm not Jewish, (I have no religious faith).
> 
> I passed an opportunity to admit to being Jewish only so that I could have a bit of fun watching as you launched into your typical, feverish, sweaty, chest-heaving joooo tirades.
Click to expand...


No concern for the children at all.


----------



## Jos

Well she lies like a jew


----------



## toastman

Jos said:


> Well she lies like a jew



Atta boy Jos ! Show us your bigotry !! You anti - semitic piece of trash


----------



## Hollie

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SherriMunnerlyn said:
> 
> 
> 
> I do not believe you, only Jews do not know how to spell the word Jew.
> 
> You reek of hate for Muslims.
> 
> No need for me to hate, I spend my time calling the haters on their Hate.
> 
> That is what this thread has been all about, demonizing Muslims.
> 
> And what is pathetic is how you could care less about what these children are suffering in these child marriages. Their hurting fuels your Hate.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oh, how you wrong me, Sherry. Here I was, making a benevolent gesture to advise that I'm not Jewish, (I have no religious faith).
> 
> I passed an opportunity to admit to being Jewish only so that I could have a bit of fun watching as you launched into your typical, feverish, sweaty, chest-heaving joooo tirades.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No concern for the children at all.
Click to expand...


I'm afraid your only goal in this thread was to further your rabid jooooooo hatreds.


----------



## irosie91

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> irosie91 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SherriMunnerlyn said:
> 
> 
> 
> The thread OP  addresses an incident that never happened.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> whether it happened or not remains to be discovered ----your citation proved
> nothing.     A picture of a man and a kid proves nothing.    Why would a Yemeni
> social worked lie?        He is a mossad plant?      The original article was pubished in
> the zionist city of SANAA
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> What social worker? What is his name? How do we contact him? Where is the grave?
Click to expand...


the story appeared in the gulf news and in Sanaa-----the social worker was characterized 
as being a male-----considering the nature of islamic society  ----identifying the name of the 
social worker would  lead to his inevitable murder.      Why would you want to contact him.  
As to the grave of the child---contact the family but you will probably not get an answer.  
My husband was born in   ADEN YEMEN-----At that time Aden was the most civilized area of 
Yemen---being occupied by the Brits----His birth was registered and as a 20 something year 
old student----20 something years later in London----he did try to get a copy of his birth 
certificate------The yemeni consulate simply took his evidence  (in the pre xerox days)  
and -----ignored him thereafter-----claimed he never existed nor did his papers-----Keep 
in mind-----the place is YEMEN-----the shariah cesspit  Yemen.    To your colleagues in 
Yemen----a jewish infant  who made it out of  Yemen-----before 1947  was just one who should never have escaped the throat slitters of  1947

The good thing about yemen is that the people know how to keep a secret----and if you 
pay them off------you can escape safely


----------



## irosie91

Coyote said:


> SherriMunnerlyn said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> That particular story may not be true - but, it's indicative of a very real problem in Yemen.  Yemen has a reputation for child marriages.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That may be true. *But the problem being raised through a fictious story that paints this as an evil of Islam is not the way to discuss this global problem* of child marriages, that affects peoples of many different cultures and religions.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I agree...well said.
Click to expand...


An interesting perspective      When discussing incidents of  child abuse or forced 
child marriages----it should become outlawed to mention the country or the ethniciy 
or the religion of the players

    the story should have been     "female X aged 8---banged to death by male Y aged 
       40-----perhaps they were a married couple

    In fact---in case of casualties of war----aside from mentioning name and gender----
      no mention should be made of place or name

    Stories of throat slittings could just be      throat slitting # 309522  male aged 9


in medical journals      case reports are reported by  the INITIALS OF THE PATIENT ---
   guess who was the  Pt in this  New England Journal of Medicine article many 
   years ago        "JFK---male aged 44----Addison's disease.    Obviously initials must 
   be deleted


----------



## Moonglow

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> Credibility for Wikipedia
> 
> Because you have a right to my opinionWikipedia is a great idea, but it suffers from such such horrendous lack of credibility that it has been banned as a reference citation at all respectable schools and universities.In my article on*evaluating the credibility*of Oracle information on the web, I noted that only by providing a real identify and qualifications can the credibility of a publication be accessed.The same is true from Wikipedia. Wikipedia has a huge ultra-liberal bias, with most of the entries being made by people who have lots of free time.* For example, the Wikipedia entry for Hillary Rodham Clinton a few months ago described her with profanity as "The First B***h of the World." Kid's have no business on Wikipedia.This article*notes that librarians are working hard to discredit Wikipedia and encourage "real" authoritative references for research:"We feel strongly about our responsibility to educate our students on the good, credible and scholarly material on the Internet and discourage their pulling out the first thing they find which may or may not be accurate. . .For less than $25 you can transfer the entire Encyclopedia Britannica to your desktop or laptop for immediate access. Call me old fashioned, but that's my idea of authority."
> 
> Getting Credibility for Wikipedia



Did you research that the Russians are not protecting the Christians in Syria?


----------



## MHunterB

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> I am not even posting the MEMRI video, supposedly of an interview of  the allegedly previously dead  child.
> 
> CERTAINLY sheds some light on who may have been behind this Propaganda story.



What a totally IDIOTIC post!!!!  How about the *ACTIVIST*  who was the ultimate source????  Desn't the word *ACTIVIST* clue you in that it's a person with an agenda???

And of course no*ACTIVIST* has ever, ever been known to slant or exaggerate anything ever!


----------



## Jos

MHunterB said:


> What a totally IDIOTIC post!!!!  How about the *ACTIVIST*  who was the ultimate source????  Desn't the word *ACTIVIST* clue you in that it's a person with an agenda???
> 
> And of course no*ACTIVIST* has ever, ever been known to slant or exaggerate anything ever!



What a totally IDIOTIC post!!!!  How about the *ACTIVIST*  who was the &#822;u&#822;l&#822;t&#822;i&#822;m&#822;a&#822;t&#822;e&#822; Primary  source???? The ultimate source debunked the tale the zionists ran with


----------



## Jos

Jos said:


> Hossfly said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jos said:
> 
> 
> 
> NPN Article: Judaism's Pedophilia Begins with Rabbi ben Yohai
> 
> 
> 
> I'll defer to some of the Judaic Studies scholars here. Tale it away, Irosie.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> They will not "tale it away" they will ignore it, as they always ignore the truth
Click to expand...


No one even went there


----------



## MHunterB

Pooooooor l'il sherrriliar!  

No amount of screeching "You hate Muslims" is going to drown out the sherriKKKins bellowing "I hate Jews".......  whether anyone else posting here has an irrational hatred of Muslims (not so irrational when one reads Jossy-pigturd's posts!) is not relevant to the l'il sherriliar's own blatant Jew-hatred.

No amount of others' sins can absolve you of your own evil, l'il sherriKKKins. 

An now, I expect we'll get to see another rant wherein the pious l'il pustule pseudo-pacifist pimps herself as 'a follower of Jesus'  and claims she's 'confronting evil and prejudice' here.


----------



## MHunterB

Ted Pike = hate speech.

Jos = coprocephalic.

SherriKKKins = suffers from cerebro/rectal prolapse.


----------



## irosie91

MHunterB said:


> Pooooooor l'il sherrriliar!
> 
> No amount of screeching "You hate Muslims" is going to drown out the sherriKKKins bellowing "I hate Jews".......  whether anyone else posting here has an irrational hatred of Muslims (not so irrational when one reads Jossy-pigturd's posts!) is not relevant to the l'il sherriliar's own blatant Jew-hatred.
> 
> No amount of others' sins can absolve you of your own evil, l'il sherriKKKins.
> 
> An now, I expect we'll get to see another rant wherein the pious l'il pustule pseudo-pacifist pimps herself as 'a follower of Jesus'  and claims she's 'confronting evil and prejudice' here.




Marge    PUHLEEEEZEE      you are maligning  ISA------ISA told sherri that all 
good people hate jews.     Did you forget about ISA?       he was an arab who 
lived in Palestine  more than 2000 years ago.     He spoke arabic and hated jews 
and was a very holy person who now is in communication with sherri.   
For some unfathomable reason----he pretended to be a pharisee jew


----------



## Jos

MHunterB would have so loved this story to be true


----------



## MHunterB

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SherriMunnerlyn said:
> 
> 
> 
> The story in the OP has been confirmed to be not true.
> 
> As far as who started the false storys circulation, I cannot answer that question.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That particular story may not be true - but, it's indicative of a very real problem in Yemen.  Yemen has a reputation for child marriages.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> That may be true. But the problem being raised through a fictious story *that paints this as an evil of Islam* is not the way to discuss this global problem of child marriages, that affects peoples of many different cultures and religions.
Click to expand...


And that SOME individuals on here have wrongly done that, is no excuse for dragging in slander after slander from usubstantiated 'sources' to throw filth specifically at the non-Muslim communities.  

Especially while SOME of us have repeatedly attempted to address the very real problem and had our posts ignored in favor of making further attacks.


----------



## irosie91

Jos said:


> MHunterB would have so loved this story to be true




It probably is true-----and thousands more like it definitely are. ----but why would 
that affect Marge?


----------



## MHunterB

Jos said:


> MHunterB would have so loved this story to be true



Being compared to Jos would make a syphilitic cockroach blush.......


----------



## Roudy

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> UPDATE: 8-Year-Old Yemeni Bride NOT DEAD, Shows Up In Video All Alive and Well [VIDEO]
> 
> UPDATE: 8-Year-Old Yemeni Bride NOT DEAD, Shows Up In Video All Alive and Well [VIDEO] - International Business Times


yes, but that's because it's just another of your bullshit websites.  Here are some legitimate sites, with more egg on your face.

Girl, 8, dies from internal injuries after wedding night in Yemen - NY Daily News

Yemeni child bride, eight, 'dies on wedding night' | Global development | theguardian.com

Yemen investigates reported child-bride death - Middle East - Al Jazeera English

Yemeni child bride, 8, dies of internal injuries on first night of forced marriage to groom, 40 | Mail Online


----------



## Jos

MHunterB said:


> Jos said:
> 
> 
> 
> MHunterB would have so loved this story to be true
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Being compared to Jos would make a syphilitic cockroach blush.......
Click to expand...


Blush away, syphilitic cockroach


----------



## Roudy

toastman said:


> Jos said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well she lies like a jew
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Atta boy Jos ! Show us your bigotry !! You anti - semitic piece of trash
Click to expand...

They are mentally ill, and can't control themselves.


----------



## irosie91

Roudy said:


> SherriMunnerlyn said:
> 
> 
> 
> UPDATE: 8-Year-Old Yemeni Bride NOT DEAD, Shows Up In Video All Alive and Well [VIDEO]
> 
> UPDATE: 8-Year-Old Yemeni Bride NOT DEAD, Shows Up In Video All Alive and Well [VIDEO] - International Business Times
> 
> 
> 
> yes, but that's because it's just another of your bullshit websites.  Here are some legitimate sites, with more egg on your face.
> 
> Girl, 8, dies from internal injuries after wedding night in Yemen - NY Daily News
> 
> Yemeni child bride, eight, 'dies on wedding night' | Global development | theguardian.com
> 
> Yemen investigates reported child-bride death - Middle East - Al Jazeera English
> 
> Yemeni child bride, 8, dies of internal injuries on first night of forced marriage to groom, 40 | Mail Online
Click to expand...




   Excellent list of citations      Roudy-----but I am not sure if Sherri is willing to trust 
   that  "AL JEZEERA"  rag------did she not say that it has no credibility?


----------



## MHunterB

irosie91 said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SherriMunnerlyn said:
> 
> 
> 
> UPDATE: 8-Year-Old Yemeni Bride NOT DEAD, Shows Up In Video All Alive and Well [VIDEO]
> 
> UPDATE: 8-Year-Old Yemeni Bride NOT DEAD, Shows Up In Video All Alive and Well [VIDEO] - International Business Times
> 
> 
> 
> yes, but that's because it's just another of your bullshit websites.  Here are some legitimate sites, with more egg on your face.
> 
> Girl, 8, dies from internal injuries after wedding night in Yemen - NY Daily News
> 
> Yemeni child bride, eight, 'dies on wedding night' | Global development | theguardian.com
> 
> Yemen investigates reported child-bride death - Middle East - Al Jazeera English
> 
> Yemeni child bride, 8, dies of internal injuries on first night of forced marriage to groom, 40 | Mail Online
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Excellent list of citations      Roudy-----but I am not sure if Sherri is willing to trust
> that  "AL JEZEERA"  rag------did she not say that it has no credibility?
Click to expand...


Why?  Has she  claimed that it's 'Zionist owned' or some such?


----------



## Jos

Jos said:


> Jos said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hossfly said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yeshiva University in New York City is the latest Jewish educational institution to be rocked by accusations of extensive pedophilia by rabbis and teachers. Yeshiva, including an elite high school, the Albert Einstein College of Medicine, the Benjamin N. Cardoza School of Law, and an endowment of nearly 1.3 billion dollars is the Harvard of Orthodox Judaism in America. But now 31 former high school and Yeshiva affiliate students allege sexual abuse by two highly respected Yeshiva rabbis during 1969-1989. They are suing Yeshiva U. for 380 million dollars. &#8220;Yeshiva University High School held itself out as an exemplary Jewish secondary school when in fact it was allowing known sexual predators to roam the school at will seeking other victims,&#8221; said attorney for the plaintiffs, Kevin Mulhearn. Mulhearn asserts that hundreds of boys were sexually molested or sodomized.
> 
> Typically, as with other Jewish child abuse scandals in Brooklyn, Sydney, Melbourne, Jerusalem, etc., Yeshiva's administration is evasive. As a result, AIG (American Insurance Group) may not continue insuring it.
> 
> Why do Jewish authority figures continue to be accused of pedophilia against primarily Jewish children?
> 
> The Talmud, highest authority for modern Talmudic Judaism, endorses pedophilia. It calls it "Halachah" or binding Jewish law!
> 
> The Talmudic rabbi most instrumental in persuading rabbis today to indulge in pedophilia is 2nd century A.D. Simeon ben Yohai. It's hard to imagine a rabbinic sage more esteemed than ben Yohai. He is credited by Ultra-Orthodox Jews as the author of the Zohar, or Kabbalah. Every year in Meron in Israel (where ben Yohai died), more than 10,000 Hasidic Jews gather for a week of singing, dancing, and praising ben Yohai, who may well be Kabbalist Judaism's most venerated authority.
> 
> In Orthodox Judaism, the most ancient first and second A.D. rabbis, the "Tannaim," are considered most authoritative. This is largely because they lived in Palestine closest in time to the Pharisees, who, originating in Babylon, created the Mishnah (oral law), which later became written down as the Babylonian Talmud. Some &#8220;Tanna&#8221; receive greater respect from Orthodox Jews than does Moses. Jesus accused the oral law of "making the law of God of none effect."
> 
> The Talmud is the greatest religious authority for observant Jews today. It teaches that when sages of ben Yohai&#8217;s stature pronounced new laws, they did so out of the memory of what God had taught them in heaven. The Talmud says such memory was imparted to ben Yohai's teacher, Rabbi Akiba: when Moses died he went to heaven and beheld Rabbi Akiba &#8220;expounding wondrously on the Torah.&#8221; Thus, when ben Yohai authorizes pedophilia in the Talmud, such permission becomes law for Orthodox Jews for all time.
> 
> In Yebamoth 60b the Talmud says:
> 
> It was taught: R. Simeon ben Yohai stated: &#8216;A proselyte who is under the age of three years and one day is permitted to marry a priest. For it is said, But all the women children that have not known men by lying with them, keep for yourselves; and Phinehas surely was with them.&#8217;
> 
> Ben Yohai&#8217;s interpretation comes from Numbers 31:18. The Hebrews, after defeating the Midianites, were allowed to keep virginal females of all ages as wives or potential wives when they sexually matured. Ben Yohai exploited this verse to claim God gives Jews rights to sexual use of females of virtually any age, although he puts the lower bar at three years and a day. Further, he says that because the righteous Phinehas was among the Hebrew congregation who accepted the Midianite women, it means that Phinehas endorsed child sex.
> 
> Footnote 5 to this passage says ben Yohai's permission for sex with 3-year-old girls stands for all time.The footnote asks, &#8220;How could they [any other rabbi in history], contrary to the opinions of R. Simeon ben Yohai, which has scriptural support, forbid the marriage of the young proselytes?&#8221; Clearly, they can't. (The full text of this footnote and the entire passage from the Soncino edition of the Talmud are at the end of this article.)
> 
> Thus, the question posed by the Talmud footnote is extremely significant and timely. It says that just as no rabbinic authority can defy ben Yohai&#8217;s halachic permission for sex with 3-year-old girls, so no rabbinic authority in any Jewish organization, synagogue, Yeshiva high school, college, or seminary today is empowered to declare that pedophilia for the Jew is wrong!
> 
> 
> 
> I'll defer to some of the Judaic Studies scholars here. Tale it away, Irosie.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> They will not "tale it away" they will ignore it, as they always ignore the truth
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No one even went there
Click to expand...


swish


----------



## Moonglow

You Muslims and Jews fight so much you'd think you were married or related.


----------



## irosie91

MHunterB said:


> irosie91 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> 
> yes, but that's because it's just another of your bullshit websites.  Here are some legitimate sites, with more egg on your face.
> 
> Girl, 8, dies from internal injuries after wedding night in Yemen - NY Daily News
> 
> Yemeni child bride, eight, 'dies on wedding night' | Global development | theguardian.com
> 
> Yemen investigates reported child-bride death - Middle East - Al Jazeera English
> 
> Yemeni child bride, 8, dies of internal injuries on first night of forced marriage to groom, 40 | Mail Online
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Excellent list of citations      Roudy-----but I am not sure if Sherri is willing to trust
> that  "AL JEZEERA"  rag------did she not say that it has no credibility?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Why?  Has she  claimed that it's 'Zionist owned' or some such?
Click to expand...




Zionists own everything       and everyone does what zionists tell them to do----
  just yesterday----sherri informed us that zionists tell shiites and sunnis to hate 
  and kill each other -------that son-in-law---of muhummad-----that wanted to be 
  the NEXT RULER------was-----as you will know        uhm     ali something---
  or something   ali        the oncoiming  mahdi  ------was actually a mossad agent.

  Even now    zionists tell syrians to kill each other and syrians, simply,  do so


----------



## Jos

Moonglow said:


> You Muslims and Jews fight so much you'd think you were married or related.



There cousins, apart from the ones who come from east Europe, the AskaNazi's


----------



## S.J.

Coyote said:


> I think the issue of child marriage is a complex one around the world, and I agree - religion is a factor (at least Muslim and Hindu).  *But in almost all of those regions you also have a great deal of poverty*, traditional cultures and tribal councils or Sharia courts that work against national, secular law.  You also have societies where educating girls (thus increasing their worth) is not considered worthwhile so girls are a drain on their family and their value is in their bride price.  It would be nice to discuss this without generic and total bashing of an entire religion since where religion plays a role in the problem it will also need to play a role in fixing it.  Marge, I appreciate your ability to do that
> 
> So what are the solutions?
> 
> Setting and enforcing minimum age laws for one.  More and more countries have set a minimum age varying from 15 (with consent of family) to 18 but some still as young as 9, 12, 13 or nothing.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Educating women and increasing their value for another.
> 
> Confronting religious and cultural traditions that condone early marriage.
> 
> This is where modern religious leaders need to step up and promote religous values and interpretations that are in line with modern human rights standards.  It's not necessarily contradictory in either Hindu or Muslim faiths - the material is there, it just needs to be enforced.
> 
> I think, ultimately though - you also need a heavy hand in enforcing minimum age because traditional cultures are very slow to change particularly when poverty is a huge factor.  In India, the only way to stop the practice of Sati was a ban by the British, that was militarily enforced. It still occurs, but it's rare and modern Hindu doctrine now forbids it.


You keep pushing the "poverty excuse", as if being poor makes people pedophiles.  There IS no excuse, why do you keep attempting to dismiss it by blaming poverty?


----------



## irosie91

S.J. said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think the issue of child marriage is a complex one around the world, and I agree - religion is a factor (at least Muslim and Hindu).  *But in almost all of those regions you also have a great deal of poverty*, traditional cultures and tribal councils or Sharia courts that work against national, secular law.  You also have societies where educating girls (thus increasing their worth) is not considered worthwhile so girls are a drain on their family and their value is in their bride price.  It would be nice to discuss this without generic and total bashing of an entire religion since where religion plays a role in the problem it will also need to play a role in fixing it.  Marge, I appreciate your ability to do that
> 
> So what are the solutions?
> 
> Setting and enforcing minimum age laws for one.  More and more countries have set a minimum age varying from 15 (with consent of family) to 18 but some still as young as 9, 12, 13 or nothing.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Educating women and increasing their value for another.
> 
> Confronting religious and cultural traditions that condone early marriage.
> 
> This is where modern religious leaders need to step up and promote religous values and interpretations that are in line with modern human rights standards.  It's not necessarily contradictory in either Hindu or Muslim faiths - the material is there, it just needs to be enforced.
> 
> I think, ultimately though - you also need a heavy hand in enforcing minimum age because traditional cultures are very slow to change particularly when poverty is a huge factor.  In India, the only way to stop the practice of Sati was a ban by the British, that was militarily enforced. It still occurs, but it's rare and modern Hindu doctrine now forbids it.
> 
> 
> 
> You keep pushing the "poverty excuse", as if being poor makes people pedophiles.  There IS no excuse, why do you keep attempting to dismiss it by blaming poverty?
Click to expand...




I agree with you that although there is a correlation between  areas of great poverty and 
marriages at a very young age-----that the  CAUSE is not poverty      One can blame 
poverty for just about all of the ills of mankind since the fact is that  MOST HUMANS 
ON THE PLANET   are impoverished.     Very wealthy people tend to have fewer children 
than do ----the less affluent in the same societies -----you want to blame infertility on wealth?


----------



## SherriMunnerlyn

Hollie said:


> SherriMunnerlyn said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> Oh, how you  Arong me, Sherry. Here I was, making a benevolent gesture to advise that I'm not Jewish, (I have no religious faith).
> 
> I passed an opportunity to admit to being Jewish only so that I could have a bit of fun watching as you launched into your typical, feverish, sweaty, chest-heaving joooo tirades.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No concern for the children at all.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I'm afraid your only goal in this thread was to further your rabid jooooooo hatreds.
Click to expand...


I am not the one who started a thread based on a lie and spread hate based on the lie in the OP.

Lies exist to be confronted with Truth, for some of us that is true anyway.

For me, it all goes back to a man who was crucified on a Cross, who died for every person. That includes every child the victim of child marriages. 

Any person demonizes people as they have used this thread to do, and uses innocent children to do it with, deserves to have what they are doing exposed.

As far as discussing Jews here, the point is they have been a part of this too.


----------



## Roudy

irosie91 said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SherriMunnerlyn said:
> 
> 
> 
> UPDATE: 8-Year-Old Yemeni Bride NOT DEAD, Shows Up In Video All Alive and Well [VIDEO]
> 
> UPDATE: 8-Year-Old Yemeni Bride NOT DEAD, Shows Up In Video All Alive and Well [VIDEO] - International Business Times
> 
> 
> 
> yes, but that's because it's just another of your bullshit websites.  Here are some legitimate sites, with more egg on your face.
> 
> Girl, 8, dies from internal injuries after wedding night in Yemen - NY Daily News
> 
> Yemeni child bride, eight, 'dies on wedding night' | Global development | theguardian.com
> 
> Yemen investigates reported child-bride death - Middle East - Al Jazeera English
> 
> Yemeni child bride, 8, dies of internal injuries on first night of forced marriage to groom, 40 | Mail Online
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Excellent list of citations      Roudy-----but I am not sure if Sherri is willing to trust
> that  "AL JEZEERA"  rag------did she not say that it has no credibility?
Click to expand...

Sherri likes to step in "it" all the time.  Like her claim that India is an example where child brides occurs the most, and then it turns out that all the other religions are abiding by this new law that was passed banning marriage under 18, EXCEPT FOR THE 15 MILLION MUSLIM INDIANS, CITING "RELIGIOUS AND SHARIAT LAWS".  And it's the Muslim Indians that have the most child marriages.  Wow, what a surprise!

"No, Islam has is not a main contributor to child marriages among Muslims"  <----GOOD JOKE


----------



## Roudy

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SherriMunnerlyn said:
> 
> 
> 
> No concern for the children at all.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm afraid your only goal in this thread was to further your rabid jooooooo hatreds.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I am not the one who started a thread based on a lie and spread hate based on the lie in the OP.
> 
> Lies exist to be confronted with Truth, for some of us that is true anyway.
> 
> For me, it all goes back to a man who was crucified on a Cross, who died for every person. That includes every child the victim of child marriages.
> 
> Any person demonizes people as they have used this thread to do, and uses innocent children to do it with, deserves to have what they are doing exposed.
> 
> As far as discussing Jews here, the point is they have been a part of this too.
Click to expand...

"Thread based on hate"?  

So let us get this straight, nutmeg.  Muslim animals forced an 8 year old to marry, and the poor girl dies from internal bleeding because of being RAPED, and bringing that to light, is considered "hate".  

Shadap.


----------



## Coyote

irosie91 said:


> S.J. said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think the issue of child marriage is a complex one around the world, and I agree - religion is a factor (at least Muslim and Hindu).  *But in almost all of those regions you also have a great deal of poverty*, traditional cultures and tribal councils or Sharia courts that work against national, secular law.  You also have societies where educating girls (thus increasing their worth) is not considered worthwhile so girls are a drain on their family and their value is in their bride price.  It would be nice to discuss this without generic and total bashing of an entire religion since where religion plays a role in the problem it will also need to play a role in fixing it.  Marge, I appreciate your ability to do that
> 
> So what are the solutions?
> 
> Setting and enforcing minimum age laws for one.  More and more countries have set a minimum age varying from 15 (with consent of family) to 18 but some still as young as 9, 12, 13 or nothing.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Educating women and increasing their value for another.
> 
> Confronting religious and cultural traditions that condone early marriage.
> 
> This is where modern religious leaders need to step up and promote religous values and interpretations that are in line with modern human rights standards.  It's not necessarily contradictory in either Hindu or Muslim faiths - the material is there, it just needs to be enforced.
> 
> I think, ultimately though - you also need a heavy hand in enforcing minimum age because traditional cultures are very slow to change particularly when poverty is a huge factor.  In India, the only way to stop the practice of Sati was a ban by the British, that was militarily enforced. It still occurs, but it's rare and modern Hindu doctrine now forbids it.
> 
> 
> 
> You keep pushing the "poverty excuse", as if being poor makes people pedophiles.  There IS no excuse, why do you keep attempting to dismiss it by blaming poverty?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I agree with you that although there is a correlation between  areas of great poverty and
> marriages at a very young age-----that the  CAUSE is not poverty      One can blame
> poverty for just about all of the ills of mankind since the fact is that  MOST HUMANS
> ON THE PLANET   are impoverished.     Very wealthy people tend to have fewer children
> than do ----the less affluent in the same societies -----you want to blame infertility on wealth?
Click to expand...


I think there are more factors then that.  The cause may have originally been culture but poverty seems to perpetuate it.  Also - wealthy people have fewer children largely because they need fewer children and have access to the means and education to limit family size.  In a lot of countries, mortality rates are high and children are a parents "social security" (or, at least sons are).


----------



## Coyote

S.J. said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think the issue of child marriage is a complex one around the world, and I agree - religion is a factor (at least Muslim and Hindu).  *But in almost all of those regions you also have a great deal of poverty*, traditional cultures and tribal councils or Sharia courts that work against national, secular law.  You also have societies where educating girls (thus increasing their worth) is not considered worthwhile so girls are a drain on their family and their value is in their bride price.  It would be nice to discuss this without generic and total bashing of an entire religion since where religion plays a role in the problem it will also need to play a role in fixing it.  Marge, I appreciate your ability to do that
> 
> So what are the solutions?
> 
> Setting and enforcing minimum age laws for one.  More and more countries have set a minimum age varying from 15 (with consent of family) to 18 but some still as young as 9, 12, 13 or nothing.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Educating women and increasing their value for another.
> 
> Confronting religious and cultural traditions that condone early marriage.
> 
> This is where modern religious leaders need to step up and promote religous values and interpretations that are in line with modern human rights standards.  It's not necessarily contradictory in either Hindu or Muslim faiths - the material is there, it just needs to be enforced.
> 
> I think, ultimately though - you also need a heavy hand in enforcing minimum age because traditional cultures are very slow to change particularly when poverty is a huge factor.  In India, the only way to stop the practice of Sati was a ban by the British, that was militarily enforced. It still occurs, but it's rare and modern Hindu doctrine now forbids it.
> 
> 
> 
> You keep pushing the "poverty excuse", as if being poor makes people pedophiles.  There IS no excuse, why do you keep attempting to dismiss it by blaming poverty?
Click to expand...


I'm simply reiterating what human rights groups and UNICEF say.  If you have an issue take it up with them.  They are the ones on the ground tracking this and trying to make changes.  Not you, sitting at your computer.

Stating that poverty (or anything else) is a factor is not making an excuse.

Are you attempting to dismiss it or make excuses by blaming it on religion?

People are pedophiles because they are born that way.


----------



## Coyote

Hollie said:


> SherriMunnerlyn said:
> 
> 
> 
> Wow, a discussion of child marriages leads to the plight of Jews in Afghanistan and imagined pogroms against Jews.
> 
> Truth is Israels actions have hurt Jews globally far more than anything else has since her creation in 1948.
> 
> But that picture of self as always the victim cannot be let go of, it defines who persons like Hollie are.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not Jewish, dear.
> 
> But it seems that you have been the one who enters every thread with one purpose: to promote your insensate Jooooo hatreds.
Click to expand...



hmmm...kind of like some here who enter every thread with one purpose:  to promote their insensate Moooooooooooooooooslim hatreds, eh?


----------



## Roudy

Coyote said:


> S.J. said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think the issue of child marriage is a complex one around the world, and I agree - religion is a factor (at least Muslim and Hindu).  *But in almost all of those regions you also have a great deal of poverty*, traditional cultures and tribal councils or Sharia courts that work against national, secular law.  You also have societies where educating girls (thus increasing their worth) is not considered worthwhile so girls are a drain on their family and their value is in their bride price.  It would be nice to discuss this without generic and total bashing of an entire religion since where religion plays a role in the problem it will also need to play a role in fixing it.  Marge, I appreciate your ability to do that
> 
> So what are the solutions?
> 
> Setting and enforcing minimum age laws for one.  More and more countries have set a minimum age varying from 15 (with consent of family) to 18 but some still as young as 9, 12, 13 or nothing.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Educating women and increasing their value for another.
> 
> Confronting religious and cultural traditions that condone early marriage.
> 
> This is where modern religious leaders need to step up and promote religous values and interpretations that are in line with modern human rights standards.  It's not necessarily contradictory in either Hindu or Muslim faiths - the material is there, it just needs to be enforced.
> 
> I think, ultimately though - you also need a heavy hand in enforcing minimum age because traditional cultures are very slow to change particularly when poverty is a huge factor.  In India, the only way to stop the practice of Sati was a ban by the British, that was militarily enforced. It still occurs, but it's rare and modern Hindu doctrine now forbids it.
> 
> 
> 
> You keep pushing the "poverty excuse", as if being poor makes people pedophiles.  There IS no excuse, why do you keep attempting to dismiss it by blaming poverty?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I'm simply reiterating what human rights groups and UNICEF say.  If you have an issue take it up with them.  They are the ones on the ground tracking this and trying to make changes.  Not you, sitting at your computer.
> 
> Stating that poverty (or anything else) is a factor is not making an excuse.
> 
> Are you attempting to dismiss it or make excuses by blaming it on religion?
> 
> People are pedophiles because they are born that way.
Click to expand...

UNICEF also states that child brides occurs highest in Muslim majority countries.  Yet you failed to "reiterate" that little tidbit.  LOL


----------



## Hollie

Coyote said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SherriMunnerlyn said:
> 
> 
> 
> Wow, a discussion of child marriages leads to the plight of Jews in Afghanistan and imagined pogroms against Jews.
> 
> Truth is Israels actions have hurt Jews globally far more than anything else has since her creation in 1948.
> 
> But that picture of self as always the victim cannot be let go of, it defines who persons like Hollie are.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not Jewish, dear.
> 
> But it seems that you have been the one who enters every thread with one purpose: to promote your insensate Jooooo hatreds.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> hmmm...kind of like some here who enter every thread with one purpose:  to promote their insensate Moooooooooooooooooslim hatreds, eh?
Click to expand...

Oh my. I suppose you think I'm guilty of the egregious sin of 'hurting Moslem's feelings"

While moslems typically feel that their politico-religious ideology is to be held to a standard that defies criticism, I disagree.

Amid all the attempts to implicate competing Abrahamic religions and other external factors into the child abuse equation, one insidious element is unique to islamism: the example set for humanity by the religions' inventor.


----------



## SherriMunnerlyn

Coyote said:


> irosie91 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> S.J. said:
> 
> 
> 
> You keep pushing the "poverty excuse", as if being poor makes people pedophiles.  There IS no excuse, why do you keep attempting to dismiss it by blaming poverty?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I agree with you that although there is a correlation between  areas of great poverty and
> marriages at a very young age-----that the  CAUSE is not poverty      One can blame
> poverty for just about all of the ills of mankind since the fact is that  MOST HUMANS
> ON THE PLANET   are impoverished.     Very wealthy people tend to have fewer children
> than do ----the less affluent in the same societies -----you want to blame infertility on wealth?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I think there are more factors then that.  The cause may have originally been culture but poverty seems to perpetuate it.  Also - wealthy people have fewer children largely because they need fewer children and have access to the means and education to limit family size.  In a lot of countries, mortality rates are high and children are a parents "social security" (or, at least sons are).
Click to expand...


A reason I do not think child marriage is the problem some like to makre it out to be in Iran is the fact that the birth rate remains so low there. One child per family is the norm. And this is not reported to have changed the last few years either, despite attempts by the government to encourage more children by offering financial incentives. With an employment rate of 30 to 40% among the youth, that make up the majority of the population, the society cannot afford a higher birth rate. When a family has only one child, they are much less likely to marry that child off at a young age. They do all they can to encourage the child to do well in school, so they can go to college. 

What explains peoples who cannot afford children having small versus large families? Compare Shiite Persian  Iranians to Shiite Arab Lebanese, the latter have much larger families. I expect one explanation is education, the people of Iran are more literate, educated, and traditionally less fundamentalist Iin their religious beliefs. Also, in the 90s Iran enforced a two child per family rule, at that time the concern had been a too high birth rate. The people became accustomed to smaller families, more females started going to college, and the people today seem indisposed to returning to the days of larger families. 

My husband has one sister and one brother, each have one child. They never planned to have more than one child, they say they cannot afford to have more than 1 child. Of my husband's cousins he speaks of, I know of two with two kids(one husband and wife are a brain surgeon and a pediatrician and one of these cousins lives in the US),  one with one child and two with no children. No child marriages he has spoken about in his family.


----------



## SherriMunnerlyn

Hollie said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not Jewish, dear.
> 
> But it seems that you have been the one who enters every thread with one purpose: to promote your insensate Jooooo hatreds.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> hmmm...kind of like some here who enter every thread with one purpose:  to promote their insensate Moooooooooooooooooslim hatreds, eh?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Oh my. I suppose you think I'm guilty of the egregious sin of 'hurting Moslem's feelings"
> 
> While moslems typically feel that their politico-religious ideology is to be held to a standard that defies criticism, I disagree.
> 
> Amid all the attempts to implicate competing Abrahamic religions and other external factors into the child abuse equation, one insidious element is unique to islamism: the example set for humanity by the religions' inventor.
Click to expand...


Should we follow the example set by Abraham and marry our siblings?


----------



## toastman

For those of you who are not familiar with Sherri's hate, please have a look at these two threads she started several months ago:

The Myth of The Holocaust:

http://www.usmessageboard.com/usmb-badlands/288144-the-myth-of-the-holocaust.html

and then this one, which really exposed Sherri for the hateful, vile and disgusting bigot that she really is:

http://www.usmessageboard.com/usmb-...itary-helicopter-crashes-2-pilots-killed.html

Please read this thread. She started the thread with a link to the article of two Israeli pilots who had just died in a accidental helicopter crash. Here are some memorable quotes from this thread:

*What do Zionist pilots do? What are they trained to do? They carry out air strikes and deliberately target and kill innocent Palestinian children and civilians. The deaths of these pilots perhaps saved the lives of Palestinian babies they were on a mission to kill. You bet, I clap when such baby killing scum go to meet their Maker and are stopped from killing more babies in Palestine.

I praise God for this, all praise belongs to God!

Thank you, God!

Sherri*

That's right folks, she praised God for the death of two innocent pilots. 

Why am I bringing this up ? Because Sherri actually has the nerve to call others hateful, after the disgusting portrayal of hatred she showed us in those two threads.


----------



## SherriMunnerlyn

Be Fruitful And Multiply: Iran&#8217;s Program To Increase Its Population Might Not Work

By*Palash Ghosh*on April 22 2013*

The Iranian government, already burdened by Western sanctions over its disputed nuclear program, is again encouraging young couples in the country to have more children in order to cope with the kind of aging demographics that currently plague Western Europe and Japan.Teheran officials, who have spearheaded a door-to-door campaign to spread a health education propaganda drive, want to spark a baby boom that would double the Iranian population to about 150 million. The Daily Telegraph reported that no less than 150,000 health workers have mobilized for the ambitious project, literally knocking on the doors of homes to encourage single-child families to have more offspring.

By 1986, seven years after the revolution, Iran&#8217;s population was growing by 3 percent annually, one of the highest rates in the world (by 2011, that figure dropped to 1 percent, according to the United Nations).

Be Fruitful And Multiply: Iran?s Program To Increase Its Population Might Not Work


----------



## toastman

If somebody can quote my above post so Sherri can see it, since she has me on ignore


----------



## Hossfly

toastman said:


> For those of you who are not familiar with Sherri's hate, please have a look at these two threads she started several months ago:
> 
> The Myth of The Holocaust:
> 
> http://www.usmessageboard.com/usmb-badlands/288144-the-myth-of-the-holocaust.html
> 
> and then this one, which really exposed Sherri for the hateful, vile and disgusting bigot that she really is:
> 
> http://www.usmessageboard.com/usmb-...itary-helicopter-crashes-2-pilots-killed.html
> 
> Please read this thread. She started the thread with a link to the article of two Israeli pilots who had just died in a accidental helicopter crash. Here are some memorable quotes from this thread:
> 
> *What do Zionist pilots do? What are they trained to do? They carry out air strikes and deliberately target and kill innocent Palestinian children and civilians. The deaths of these pilots perhaps saved the lives of Palestinian babies they were on a mission to kill. You bet, I clap when such baby killing scum go to meet their Maker and are stopped from killing more babies in Palestine.
> 
> I praise God for this, all praise belongs to God!
> 
> Thank you, God!
> 
> Sherri*
> 
> That's right folks, she praised God for the death of two innocent pilots.
> 
> Why am I bringing this up ? Because Sherri actually has the nerve to call others hateful, after the disgusting portrayal of hatred she showed us in those two threads.


I thought Sherri was a Christian cheek turner. Apparently not.


----------



## Hossfly

Hollie said:


> SherriMunnerlyn said:
> 
> 
> 
> Wow, a discussion of child marriages leads to the plight of Jews in Afghanistan and imagined pogroms against Jews.
> 
> Truth is Israels actions have hurt Jews globally far more than anything else has since her creation in 1948.
> 
> But that picture of self as always the victim cannot be let go of, it defines who persons like Hollie are.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not Jewish, dear.
> 
> But it seems that you have been the one who enters every thread with one purpose: to promote your insensate Jooooo hatreds.
Click to expand...

I wouldn't be surprised if Frau Sherri, when she lived in the area, got hold of the women attending the mosque on Sherman Way, Reseda, CA telling them how evil the Jews are.  I heard that there is now a young male cashier of Iranian background in Frau Sherri's favorite Middle Eastern market in Reseda who is wearing a large Star of David (the owner himself is a Lebanese Christian).  Can you imagine the earful Frau Sherri would give him while she was checking out.  The Farsi-speaking Iranian cashiers there said to tell Frau Sherri "Sobh Be kheyr!"


----------



## Hossfly

Jos said:


> Well she lies like a jew


And, by now, many of the viewers realize that Yousef Mohammed;s Pinocchio nose keeps on growing and growing and growing!!!  Whomever coined that expression "lying like a Persian rug" must have had Yousef Mohammed in mind.


----------



## Hossfly

Jos said:


> Moonglow said:
> 
> 
> 
> You Muslims and Jews fight so much you'd think you were married or related.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There cousins, apart from the ones who come from east Europe, the AskaNazi's
Click to expand...

While the Ashkenazi have the same gene as the Jews from the Middle East have, I would say that the Muslim Pakistanis have actually nothing to do with the Muslims from the Middle East nor even the Muslims you find in the Philiippines and China.  Have you had  your DNA tested yet, Yousef Mohammed, to see if your ancestors are true Persians or are your ancestors from those who invaded Persia?


----------



## Coyote

Roudy said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> S.J. said:
> 
> 
> 
> You keep pushing the "poverty excuse", as if being poor makes people pedophiles.  There IS no excuse, why do you keep attempting to dismiss it by blaming poverty?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm simply reiterating what human rights groups and UNICEF say.  If you have an issue take it up with them.  They are the ones on the ground tracking this and trying to make changes.  Not you, sitting at your computer.
> 
> Stating that poverty (or anything else) is a factor is not making an excuse.
> 
> Are you attempting to dismiss it or make excuses by blaming it on religion?
> 
> People are pedophiles because they are born that way.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> UNICEF also states that child brides occurs highest in Muslim majority countries.  Yet you failed to "reiterate" that little tidbit.  LOL
Click to expand...


And you fail to look at any other reason given by UNICEF which repeatedly states poverty is the major driver.  You fail to "reiterate" that little tidbit just like you completely bypass the fact that it's prevalent in Hindu India and there is even a Hindu festival promoting it.  You are so focused on Islam being the *only reason* in Muslim majority countries.  Are you going to continue to be a Hindu apologist?


----------



## Coyote

I don't get what this Ashkenazi stuff has to do with anything...much less child marriage.


----------



## Coyote

Roudy said:


> SherriMunnerlyn said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm afraid your only goal in this thread was to further your rabid jooooooo hatreds.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I am not the one who started a thread based on a lie and spread hate based on the lie in the OP.
> 
> Lies exist to be confronted with Truth, for some of us that is true anyway.
> 
> For me, it all goes back to a man who was crucified on a Cross, who died for every person. That includes every child the victim of child marriages.
> 
> Any person demonizes people as they have used this thread to do, and uses innocent children to do it with, deserves to have what they are doing exposed.
> 
> As far as discussing Jews here, the point is they have been a part of this too.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> "Thread based on hate"?
> 
> So let us get this straight, nutmeg.  Muslim animals forced an 8 year old to marry, and the poor girl dies from internal bleeding because of being RAPED, and bringing that to light, is considered "hate".
> 
> Shadap.
Click to expand...


Sherri makes one very good point.  You and your supporters don't give a damn that it occurs in non-Muslim countries.  All your posts are focused on Islam.  What do you really care about child brides and the brutality they have to endure?  You only care that's it is another way you can demonize Islam.

Not once do you address the actual issue - what these girls go through, how they are treated and what can be done.


----------



## MHunterB

Coyote said:


> I don't get what this Ashkenazi stuff has to do with anything...much less child marriage.



It has to do with the canard that Jews are a 'race':  the Jew-haters invariably make the claim that Ashkenazi (Eastern European) Jews are somehow 'not real Jews' because SOME of the Askenazi ancestry isn't from the ME.

If anyone reads the 'OT', it's clear on the people going out from Egypt being a 'mixed multtude' - and it also becomes clear that whoever accepted the Covenant at Sinai was henceforth a Jew.  According to the laws given by YHVH through Moshe, anyone who lives with the Jewish people and brings up their children by the teachings of Torah, those children are Jews.

Judaism has ALWAYS accepted converts:  in fact the Greek word 'proselyte' was initially limited to people converting Judaism.  

Like the spurious 'explanations' of various Talmud discussions, the 'Ashkenazi' bit is brought up ONLY by bigots and hate-mongers, and ONLY for malicious and hateful purpose.

A look at WHO has been dragging that into the discussion here should make the truth of my words obvious.


----------



## Coyote

MHunterB said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> I don't get what this Ashkenazi stuff has to do with anything...much less child marriage.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It has to do with the canard that Jews are a 'race':  the Jew-haters invariably make the claim that Ashkenazi (Eastern European) Jews are somehow 'not real Jews' because SOME of the Askenazi ancestry isn't from the ME.
> 
> If anyone reads the 'OT', it's clear on the people going out from Egypt being a 'mixed multtude' - and it also becomes clear that whoever accepted the Covenant at Sinai was henceforth a Jew.  According to the laws given by YHVH through Moshe, anyone who lives with the Jewish people and brings up their children by the teachings of Torah, those children are Jews.
> 
> Judaism has ALWAYS accepted converts:  in fact the Greek word 'proselyte' was initially limited to people converting Judaism.
> 
> Like the spurious 'explanations' of various Talmud discussions, the 'Ashkenazi' bit is brought up ONLY by bigots and hate-mongers, and ONLY for malicious and hateful purpose.
> 
> A look at WHO has been dragging that into the discussion here should make the truth of my words obvious.
Click to expand...


In other words it has nothing to do with child marriage.


----------



## MHunterB

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SherriMunnerlyn said:
> 
> 
> 
> No concern for the children at all.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm afraid your only goal in this thread was to further your rabid jooooooo hatreds.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I am not the one who started a thread based on a lie and spread hate based on the lie in the OP.
> 
> Lies exist to be confronted with Truth, for some of us that is true anyway.
> 
> For me, it all goes back to a man who was crucified on a Cross, who died for every person. That includes every child the victim of child marriages.
> 
> *Any person demonizes people as they have used this thread to do, and uses innocent children to do it with, deserves to have what they are doing exposed.*
> 
> As far as discussing Jews here, the point is they have been a part of this too.
Click to expand...


Did I call the pious pustule's pissy l'il self-pimping post here, or what!

Sherrriliar - you've been among the worst offenders in this thread.  As for 'innocent children' - nobody's forgotten that you've called SOME of them 'spawn'.  Or that you stated the world was a better place without them after they were slain in their beds.

Nor has anyone forgotten how you declared to another poster "Better had you never been born, than to be raised by Zionists".

Hater, liar, hypocrite - that's you, sherriKKKins.


----------



## toastman

Coyote said:


> MHunterB said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> I don't get what this Ashkenazi stuff has to do with anything...much less child marriage.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It has to do with the canard that Jews are a 'race':  the Jew-haters invariably make the claim that Ashkenazi (Eastern European) Jews are somehow 'not real Jews' because SOME of the Askenazi ancestry isn't from the ME.
> 
> If anyone reads the 'OT', it's clear on the people going out from Egypt being a 'mixed multtude' - and it also becomes clear that whoever accepted the Covenant at Sinai was henceforth a Jew.  According to the laws given by YHVH through Moshe, anyone who lives with the Jewish people and brings up their children by the teachings of Torah, those children are Jews.
> 
> Judaism has ALWAYS accepted converts:  in fact the Greek word 'proselyte' was initially limited to people converting Judaism.
> 
> Like the spurious 'explanations' of various Talmud discussions, the 'Ashkenazi' bit is brought up ONLY by bigots and hate-mongers, and ONLY for malicious and hateful purpose.
> 
> A look at WHO has been dragging that into the discussion here should make the truth of my words obvious.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> In other words it has nothing to do with child marriage.
Click to expand...


It has nothing to do really with the I/P conflict. It's just another excuse for the Islamist Nazi supporters to trash Israelis or Jews in some cases.


----------



## Roudy

Coyote said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm simply reiterating what human rights groups and UNICEF say.  If you have an issue take it up with them.  They are the ones on the ground tracking this and trying to make changes.  Not you, sitting at your computer.
> 
> Stating that poverty (or anything else) is a factor is not making an excuse.
> 
> Are you attempting to dismiss it or make excuses by blaming it on religion?
> 
> People are pedophiles because they are born that way.
> 
> 
> 
> UNICEF also states that child brides occurs highest in Muslim majority countries.  Yet you failed to "reiterate" that little tidbit.  LOL
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> And you fail to look at any other reason given by UNICEF which repeatedly states poverty is the major driver.  You fail to "reiterate" that little tidbit just like you completely bypass the fact that it's prevalent in Hindu India and there is even a Hindu festival promoting it.  You are so focused on Islam being the *only reason* in Muslim majority countries.  Are you going to continue to be a Hindu apologist?
Click to expand...

Come back when you learn how to put two and two together. Perhaps a math tutor will help. 

Right now you keep answering "five". LOL


----------



## Hollie

Coyote said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SherriMunnerlyn said:
> 
> 
> 
> I am not the one who started a thread based on a lie and spread hate based on the lie in the OP.
> 
> Lies exist to be confronted with Truth, for some of us that is true anyway.
> 
> For me, it all goes back to a man who was crucified on a Cross, who died for every person. That includes every child the victim of child marriages.
> 
> Any person demonizes people as they have used this thread to do, and uses innocent children to do it with, deserves to have what they are doing exposed.
> 
> As far as discussing Jews here, the point is they have been a part of this too.
> 
> 
> 
> "Thread based on hate"?
> 
> So let us get this straight, nutmeg.  Muslim animals forced an 8 year old to marry, and the poor girl dies from internal bleeding because of being RAPED, and bringing that to light, is considered "hate".
> 
> Shadap.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Sherri makes one very good point.  You and your supporters don't give a damn that it occurs in non-Muslim countries.  All your posts are focused on Islam.  What do you really care about child brides and the brutality they have to endure?  You only care that's it is another way you can demonize Islam.
> 
> Not once do you address the actual issue - what these girls go through, how they are treated and what can be done.
Click to expand...


In your haste to defend islam, you choose not to understand that there is an acknowledgenent religion is not a single factor in child marriage. What you hope not to address is that islam has a built-in allowance for child marriage and such abuse could be considered a pious, holy act as it is striving in the way of islam's inventor.

What can be done to change islam and reform such attitudes?


----------



## SherriMunnerlyn

Any persons in our world who are members of Abrahamic religions can choose to pick a Patriarch and follow his example. We could all be like Abraham and marry our siblings. We could marry our first cousins, we could marry as children as was normal once in our world. And the Truth is some members of all Abrahamic religions, often called religious extremists by many of us today, do choose to follow past examples that simply do not belong in the world we live in today. 

When we see such things happen in our world today, like child marriages,  we all have a choice, how do we respond to what is happening. What this thread illustrates is our diversity in the choices each of us makes.


----------



## irosie91

Coyote said:


> I don't get what this Ashkenazi stuff has to do with anything...much less child marriage.




I don't get what your obsession with the correlation between poverty and 
what you call  "child marriage"   has to do with a 40 year old man pounding 
an eight year old to death.    I little tidbit for you-------lots and lots of those 
child marriages to which you refer,  not only do not include first nite sex----
in some cases they do not even include first nite being alone together----and MOST 
do not involve extreme age disparities.    The little girl did not die easily.    The case here 
is a 40 year old man who murdered a screaming child-----it was not an accident


----------



## SherriMunnerlyn

The incident addressed in the OP did not even happen.

And let us just call it what it is, if it had happened, child abuse.

And when I look for articles about child abuse, I find a leading cause for it is Poverty. 

We may have great difficulty relating with perpetrators of child  abuse, but the fact is none of these incidents occur in a vacuum. There is poverty and a lack of education in many places in our world, even inside our own country, and unfortunate incidents happen. The child of course is a victim, but often perpetrators are victims, too, of their own pasts and their experiences. 

I think about another form of child abuse, the sexual abuse of young children by adults.  I live in a place where it is so common and kept so secret. Even for the victims, I dont know what is better, keeping the secret or bringing it in the open. 

The abuse of children is a horrible thing and all societies confront it. 

Demonizing groups and people does not fix the problem.


----------



## irosie91

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SherriMunnerlyn said:
> 
> 
> 
> No concern for the children at all.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm afraid your only goal in this thread was to further your rabid jooooooo hatreds.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I am not the one who started a thread based on a lie and spread hate based on the lie in the OP.
> 
> Lies exist to be confronted with Truth, for some of us that is true anyway.
> 
> For me, it all goes back to a man who was crucified on a Cross, who died for every person. That includes every child the victim of child marriages.
> 
> Any person demonizes people as they have used this thread to do, and uses innocent children to do it with, deserves to have what they are doing exposed.
> 
> As far as discussing Jews here, the point is they have been a part of this too.
Click to expand...




   Jews   "have been a part"   of what?       It is true that Jews living in Yemen were 
   vulnerable to   BOTH rape and the perverted  shariah filth which included the  
   Dhimmi orphan law-----My own mother-in-law could have ended up in the same 
   miserable situation that  afflicted the little 8 year old girl ----   LEGALLY RAPED BY 
   A MUSLIM.        the good news is that she was rescued from the isa respecting filth. 

  The sad news is that hubby's grandmother was raped and murdered as a young mother 
  of three----the two babies died with her ------The only good news is that the experience 
  of the beauty of shariah did galvanized hubby's  grandfather to get his son----and the 
  little orphan OUT OF THAT HELL HOLE

  The bad news that sherri ignores is that thousands of christian children are still living 
  in slavery---including perverted sexual slavery in SUDAN----legal under shariah law

  I wonder if sherri will claim that   "the jews are part of this"  regarding the filth of 
  Khartoum which she endorses as    "ISA RESPECT"


----------



## SherriMunnerlyn

JEWS are participants in child marriages too.


----------



## toastman

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> JEWS are participants in child marriages too.



Getting desperate again, aren't we SherriMunnerNazi ?


----------



## irosie91

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> JEWS are participants in child marriages too.



This thread is about a  40 year old man who pounded an eight year old to death----not 
particularly a  "child marriage"       Forced sex upon a wife in Jewish law is utterly and 
completely disallowed.       At to the jews of Yemen---they are utterly fascinated with 
MAIMONIDES and every  word he wrote which they consider authoritative   (it verges on 
neurotic)      My own mother-in-law was  married at about age 12-----or 11----Her father 
had died making her in danger of physical confiscation and legal enslavement to the local 
imam    (imam is the term yemeni muslims use for their chieftains---even the KING was 
called  "IMAM"   back then)   In any case---even you can read maimonides if you wish----
he effectively declared  LAW-----and outlawed any hint of coercion in sex to the point 
that he disallowed quarreling spouses to engage in sex or------fascinatingly,   did not allow 
a husband to wake his wife from sleep in order to engage in sex and  (gasp)  considered 
any attempt to so engage while she was asleep to be  a perversion.    The lady had to 
be awake and entirely willing-------I will not get into his foreplay advice-----you can seek 
that yourself.    Also ---like Hindus of India----kids who are "married"   or often 
"married"  for quite awhile---only by virtue of  Betrothal.      I understand that you 
never read the New Testament----however the description of the conception 
of Jesus----involves a miraculous conversation between Mary and Gabriel (?) ----
in which the betrothed  Mary states that she never had sex     She is thought to 
be 14 at that time----all of which would be consistent with the   more's of pharisee 
jews in her time.    Notice that she was never pounded to death.  

UNDER 18 marriage as a definition for   CHILD ABUSE THRU FORCED MARRIAGE-----
is silly.      however it is a good idea in places in which force is actually a real problem---
like India and muslim countries ---and lots of african countries of any creed

now what point were you struggling to make?     Baptists  are also 
known to engage in very early marriages ------Loretta Lynn---was 14


----------



## SherriMunnerlyn

The story in the OP is not true.

Try to deal with Reality!


----------



## JohnA

Hossfly said:


> JohnA said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hossfly said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not concerned only because it involves Muslims. What concerns me is the fact that Islam incorporates paedophilia into it's religion and the other major religions don't. And what's odd is the impression that you seem to be defending the sickening practice.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> i quess priests fucking litle boys dont count
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Who invited you? Knock before entering and wipe your muddy paws.
Click to expand...

 I  dont need a invite from the likes  of you  meathead when your a person of importance you can do the inviting


----------



## irosie91

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> The story in the OP is not true.
> 
> Try to deal with Reality!




The specific story is most likely true-----AND ----there are many more 
such incidents in Yemen.     The  BRIDE PRICE  is a very important feature 
of Yemeni marriage----just as important as is the  "dowry"  among hindu 
indians.      A 40 year old  Yemeni man could very likely want an eight year old---
afterall-----when he is 60 she will be 28.    The father of  SIX daughters and no 
sons-----could very well want to marry a few of the little girls off   ASAP.
It is  MOST LIKELY that he has not stopped  "trying" for  a son.


----------



## Sunni Man

irosie91 said:


> The sad news is that hubby's grandmother was raped and murdered as a young mother
> of three----the two babies died with her ------The only good news is that the experience
> of the beauty of shariah did galvanized hubby's  grandfather to get his son----and the
> little orphan OUT OF THAT HELL HOLE


Don't you ever get tired of rehashing your 40 yr. old antecedal stories allegedly told to you by family members??

I know that we are all sick of hearing them.........


----------



## toastman

Sunni Man said:


> irosie91 said:
> 
> 
> 
> The sad news is that hubby's grandmother was raped and murdered as a young mother
> of three----the two babies died with her ------The only good news is that the experience
> of the beauty of shariah did galvanized hubby's  grandfather to get his son----and the
> little orphan OUT OF THAT HELL HOLE
> 
> 
> 
> Don't you ever get tired of rehashing your 40 yr. old antecedal stories allegedly told to you by family members??
> 
> I know that we are all sick of hearing them.........
Click to expand...


Then get off the internet and go preach Jew hatred at your mosque


----------



## Hollie

Sunni Man said:


> irosie91 said:
> 
> 
> 
> The sad news is that hubby's grandmother was raped and murdered as a young mother
> of three----the two babies died with her ------The only good news is that the experience
> of the beauty of shariah did galvanized hubby's  grandfather to get his son----and the
> little orphan OUT OF THAT HELL HOLE
> 
> 
> 
> Don't you ever get tired of rehashing your 40 yr. old antecedal stories allegedly told to you by family members??
> 
> I know that we are all sick of hearing them.........
Click to expand...


Child abuse at the hand of a pious Moslem is what the thread is addressing. It's also about an unreformed politico-religious ideology invented by an Arab warlord which has not been able to claw its way out of the 7th century. 

You're not able to sit at the grown-up table so buggar off.


.... True story

.....


----------



## Hollie

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> The story in the OP is not true.
> 
> Try to deal with Reality!



Child abuse in the form of young females being married to old men as a pious act per religious tradition is a reality. 

It's ugly and it's dangerous... and it's inexcusable.


----------



## 007

Ya... those wonderful muslims... they likes 'em young...


----------



## 007

Gee... what do you call it when you have sex with CHILDREN again?...


----------



## 007

muslims holding mass child bride weddings...


----------



## irosie91

Sunni Man said:


> irosie91 said:
> 
> 
> 
> The sad news is that hubby's grandmother was raped and murdered as a young mother
> of three----the two babies died with her ------The only good news is that the experience
> of the beauty of shariah did galvanized hubby's  grandfather to get his son----and the
> little orphan OUT OF THAT HELL HOLE
> 
> 
> 
> Don't you ever get tired of rehashing your 40 yr. old antecedal stories allegedly told to you by family members??
> 
> I know that we are all sick of hearing them.........
Click to expand...



The fact of the rape of a young woman and the murder of two of 
her babies became TIMELY with the  genocide comitted against the 
Christians of South Sudan-----That rape murder, incident in Yemen took place sometime 
in the 1920s ----it is far older than 40 years.    The near enslavement and rape 
of my mother-in-law in Yemen---took place sometime in the early 1930s.   It 
is important to me since it galvanized the marriage that produced dear 
hubby. and also  describes the  "legal system"    which rendered tens of 
thousands of christian children enslaved to the dogs of Khartoum.    The history 
is important here because it provides a perspective of the  "life-style"  in question


----------



## MHunterB

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> The incident addressed in the OP did not even happen.
> 
> And let us just call it what it is, if it had happened, child abuse.
> 
> And when I look for articles about child abuse, I find a leading cause for it is Poverty.
> 
> We may have great difficulty relating with perpetrators of child  abuse, but the fact is none of these incidents occur in a vacuum. There is poverty and a lack of education in many places in our world, even inside our own country, and unfortunate incidents happen. The child of course is a victim, but often perpetrators are victims, too, of their own pasts and their experiences.
> 
> I think about another form of child abuse, the sexual abuse of young children by adults.  I live in a place where it is so common and kept so secret. Even for the victims, I dont know what is better, keeping the secret or bringing it in the open.
> 
> The abuse of children is a horrible thing and all societies confront it.
> 
> *Demonizing groups and people does not fix the problem*.



You might begin by apologizing for your own attempts to do exactly such demonizing:  it was the choice you made for most of the 70 preceeding pages.  

I've no patience with lecturing on morality coming from such a blatant hypocrite.  (It's behavior typical of thse with narcissistic personality disorders, incidentally - to engage in 'turnabouts' and act as though nothing had happened.)

We ALL make choices, and we each should expect to have to live with the results.  You have no 'leg' to stand on in this instance.


----------



## irosie91

Coyote said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SherriMunnerlyn said:
> 
> 
> 
> I am not the one who started a thread based on a lie and spread hate based on the lie in the OP.
> 
> Lies exist to be confronted with Truth, for some of us that is true anyway.
> 
> For me, it all goes back to a man who was crucified on a Cross, who died for every person. That includes every child the victim of child marriages.
> 
> Any person demonizes people as they have used this thread to do, and uses innocent children to do it with, deserves to have what they are doing exposed.
> 
> As far as discussing Jews here, the point is they have been a part of this too.
> 
> 
> 
> "Thread based on hate"?
> 
> So let us get this straight, nutmeg.  Muslim animals forced an 8 year old to marry, and the poor girl dies from internal bleeding because of being RAPED, and bringing that to light, is considered "hate".
> 
> Shadap.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Sherri makes one very good point.  You and your supporters don't give a damn that it occurs in non-Muslim countries.  All your posts are focused on Islam.  What do you really care about child brides and the brutality they have to endure?  You only care that's it is another way you can demonize Islam.
> 
> Not once do you address the actual issue - what these girls go through, how they are treated and what can be done.
Click to expand...




   You are talking about FAMILY LIFE IN YEMEN------nothing can be done.    Stuff 
   can be done  (with great difficulty)  in the USA   about that which yemenis do 
   at home  ---but nothing in a sovereign shariah adherent country---with lots of hills 
   and tribal enclaves.     I had a ---professional interaction----from which I learned 
   that amongst yemeni muslims----a girl has no friends -----her own mother and
   brothers  will  side with her abusive husband   (that interaction took place here 
   in the USA)     Getting back to the case at hand-----the father of the dead 
   girl had six daughters and no sons.     Think about his situation right now.  
   I can help------he will not dare to complain about what happened and is very 
   likely to cooperate with a cover-up


----------



## Coyote

irosie91 said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> 
> "Thread based on hate"?
> 
> So let us get this straight, nutmeg.  Muslim animals forced an 8 year old to marry, and the poor girl dies from internal bleeding because of being RAPED, and bringing that to light, is considered "hate".
> 
> Shadap.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sherri makes one very good point.  You and your supporters don't give a damn that it occurs in non-Muslim countries.  All your posts are focused on Islam.  What do you really care about child brides and the brutality they have to endure?  You only care that's it is another way you can demonize Islam.
> 
> Not once do you address the actual issue - what these girls go through, how they are treated and what can be done.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You are talking about FAMILY LIFE IN YEMEN------nothing can be done.    Stuff
> can be done  (with great difficulty)  in the USA   about that which yemenis do
> at home  ---but nothing in a sovereign shariah adherent country---with lots of hills
> and tribal enclaves.     I had a ---professional interaction----from which I learned
> that amongst yemeni muslims----a girl has no friends -----her own mother and
> brothers  will  side with her abusive husband   (that interaction took place here
> in the USA)     Getting back to the case at hand-----the father of the dead
> girl had six daughters and no sons.     Think about his situation right now.
> I can help------he will not dare to complain about what happened and is very
> likely to cooperate with a cover-up
Click to expand...


I was thinking more about what can be done about the issue world wide, but you make good points about Yemen - very tribal, backwards, and the poorest nation in the ME.  The central government is not very effective either.


----------



## Coyote

irosie91 said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> I don't get what this Ashkenazi stuff has to do with anything...much less child marriage.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *I don't get what your obsession with the correlation between poverty and
> what you call  "child marriage"   has to do with a 40 year old man pounding
> an eight year old to death.*    I little tidbit for you-------lots and lots of those
> child marriages to which you refer,  not only do not include first nite sex----
> in some cases they do not even include first nite being alone together----and MOST
> do not involve extreme age disparities.    The little girl did not die easily.    The case here
> is a 40 year old man who murdered a screaming child-----it was not an accident
Click to expand...


It's not my "obsession".  It's the "obsession" with UNICEF and other human rights groups who are actively trying put an end to child marriages.  If you feel it's an "obsession" - take it up with them.  At least they're doing something about it beyond raging on the internet 

I don't believe anyone claimed it was an accident.  What an odd thing to say.



http://www.policymic.com/articles/6...s-child-bride-problem-isn-t-what-you-d-expect



> Yemen&#8217;s child bride problem is back in the spotlight following the reported death of Rawan, an eight-year-old girl, as a result of injuries sustained on her wedding night. In response, Yemen&#8217;s Human Rights Minister Huriyah Mashour called for action: &#8220;Many child marriages take place every year in Yemen. It&#8217;s time to end this practice.&#8221; Mashour is seeking to draft a new law for parliament raising the minimum age of marriage for girls to 18 years.
> 
> *The recent history of Yemen has been fraught with violence and instability*. Shortly after the unification of North and South Yemen in 1990, the country descended into a brief civil war in 1994. Unified Yemen was ruled by President Ali Abdullah Saleh, and separatist movements remained active throughout his rule. In February 2012, Saleh resigned in response to massive protests calling for democratic reform. This period saw Yemeni women take an increasingly active role in the protests against Saleh&#8217;s regime. Since Saleh&#8217;s resignation, the country has been going through a tenuous political transition to establish a new constitution and elected government.
> 
> The problem of child marriage is not confined to Yemen. It can be found across different continents, cultures, and religions. *However, one thread ties these experiences together, and that is poverty. According to Human Rights Watch, child marriage is most prevalent in parts of sub-Saharan Africa and South Asia that are &#8220;characterized by persistent poverty and low levels of economic development.&#8221; The trend is certainly discernible in Yemen, the poorest country in the Middle East. The country is &#8220;beset by high unemployment, widespread corruption, and rampant human rights abuses.&#8221; As a result of the economic situation, these marriages often take the shape of a commercial transaction as the father seeks the dowry payments as a means to lighten his family&#8217;s financial burdens*.
> 
> ....A number of other factors also enable this practice to persist unabated. In the past, the Yemeni government failed to pass legislation setting the minimum age of marriage for minors. *Conservative leaders succeeded in blocking a ban on child marriage with the weak claim that such a move would go against the country&#8217;s culture and religion. This claim is baseless. In contrast to Yemen, while many countries in the Middle East and North Africa recognize sharia as a source of law these nations have set minimum age limits for marriage. In Iraq and Egypt the minimum age of marriage is 18 years.
> *
> The political situation in Yemen remains tenuous, and *the government does not have control over many parts of its own territory*. In such an environment, women and children are susceptible to abuse and exploitation. However, this political transition provides an opportunity for reform in support of greater rights for women and children. The number of female activists in Yemen has grown as a result of the protests in 2011. Although they face many obstacles, these are positive signs of increased awareness and a growing public debate on these issues that affect many Yemeni girls and women.



The article touches upon many of the points Osomir also made concerning child marriage - weak government, political instability, poverty, culture, religion, and lack of economic development.


----------



## irosie91

Coyote said:


> irosie91 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> I don't get what this Ashkenazi stuff has to do with anything...much less child marriage.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *I don't get what your obsession with the correlation between poverty and
> what you call  "child marriage"   has to do with a 40 year old man pounding
> an eight year old to death.*    I little tidbit for you-------lots and lots of those
> child marriages to which you refer,  not only do not include first nite sex----
> in some cases they do not even include first nite being alone together----and MOST
> do not involve extreme age disparities.    The little girl did not die easily.    The case here
> is a 40 year old man who murdered a screaming child-----it was not an accident
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> It's not my "obsession".  It's the "obsession" with UNICEF and other human rights groups who are actively trying put an end to child marriages.  If you feel it's an "obsession" - take it up with them.  At least they're doing something about it beyond raging on the internet
> 
> I don't believe anyone claimed it was an accident.  What an odd thing to say.
Click to expand...



What would you expect  UNICEF  to say?     UNICEF is all about   
   "CURE THE WORLD THRU SUBSIDIZED EDUCATION AND OPPORTUNITY" 

                       "just drop your coins in the box"
            UNICEF is,   very much,   a self perpetuating institution---it is not 
                    an omniscient deity

   I do agree with them----rich people are not poor      Marie Antoinette married at age 17


----------



## Coyote

irosie91 said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> irosie91 said:
> 
> 
> 
> *I don't get what your obsession with the correlation between poverty and
> what you call  "child marriage"   has to do with a 40 year old man pounding
> an eight year old to death.*    I little tidbit for you-------lots and lots of those
> child marriages to which you refer,  not only do not include first nite sex----
> in some cases they do not even include first nite being alone together----and MOST
> do not involve extreme age disparities.    The little girl did not die easily.    The case here
> is a 40 year old man who murdered a screaming child-----it was not an accident
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's not my "obsession".  It's the "obsession" with UNICEF and other human rights groups who are actively trying put an end to child marriages.  If you feel it's an "obsession" - take it up with them.  At least they're doing something about it beyond raging on the internet
> 
> I don't believe anyone claimed it was an accident.  What an odd thing to say.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> What would you expect  UNICEF  to say?     UNICEF is all about
> "CURE THE WORLD THRU SUBSIDIZED EDUCATION AND OPPORTUNITY"
> 
> "just drop your coins in the box"
> UNICEF is,   very much,   a self perpetuating institution---it is not
> an omniscient deity
> 
> I do agree with them----rich people are not poor      Marie Antoinette married at age 17
Click to expand...


Marie was wed over two hundred years ago...things change...


----------



## irosie91

Coyote said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SherriMunnerlyn said:
> 
> 
> 
> I am not the one who started a thread based on a lie and spread hate based on the lie in the OP.
> 
> Lies exist to be confronted with Truth, for some of us that is true anyway.
> 
> For me, it all goes back to a man who was crucified on a Cross, who died for every person. That includes every child the victim of child marriages.
> 
> Any person demonizes people as they have used this thread to do, and uses innocent children to do it with, deserves to have what they are doing exposed.
> 
> As far as discussing Jews here, the point is they have been a part of this too.
> 
> 
> 
> "Thread based on hate"?
> 
> So let us get this straight, nutmeg.  Muslim animals forced an 8 year old to marry, and the poor girl dies from internal bleeding because of being RAPED, and bringing that to light, is considered "hate".
> 
> Shadap.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Sherri makes one very good point.  You and your supporters don't give a damn that it occurs in non-Muslim countries.  All your posts are focused on Islam.  What do you really care about child brides and the brutality they have to endure?  You only care that's it is another way you can demonize Islam.
> 
> Not once do you address the actual issue - what these girls go through, how they are treated and what can be done.
Click to expand...



   wrong again  Coyote----sherri makes no point at all and neither do you.    WHO  are 
YOU do decide what people   "give a damn"  about?      As to   "child brides"    --child 
brides is not the topic introduced by this thread------certainly not YOUR definition of 
"child bride"   which you claim is any girl under 18 who marries a man ---of ANY 
AGE.       The topic is a case in yemen in which a 40 year old man ---who,  having paid 
MAHR  to marry an 8 year old-----banged her to death on the day of the wedding.

YOU seem to imagine that everyone in the world agrees with YOUR IDIOTIC 
notion that a girl who willingly and happily marries under the age of 18   ---to a 
boy also under the age of 18 is a VICTIM OF CHILD ABUSE -----then you spread the 
arguement out from that idiotic contention

INDIA?     I know lots of hindu girls------physicians and surgeons who married 
at age 16-----who today in our old age are STILL DELIGHTED with their spouses,  '
Long ago----one of them told me with great confidence     "MY DAUGHTER WILL 
MARRY AS I DID---- I WILL ARRANGE IT FOR HER"      she was a bit annoyed
 when I said    'yeah right'  --------as it turned out the girl married a jew---a boy 
of her own choosing-------well     the mom never expressed displeasure    She is still 
practicing medicine and her husband is still----of all things for an Indian----a psychiatrist. 

The arrangement back then -----when she married was more like an introduction thru 
family-----(that means caste)  than a forced thing with money changing hands---two 
very good students-------it was a "match"       She was  16----not 8        As to being 
abused----NOT HER!!!!!    .....there were times when she intimidated me..........

you want to call that an abusive   "child marriage"?


----------



## SherriMunnerlyn

MHunterB said:


> SherriMunnerlyn said:
> 
> 
> 
> The incident addressed in the OP did not even happen.
> 
> And let us just call it what it is, if it had happened, child abuse.
> 
> And when I look for articles about child abuse, I find a leading cause for it is Poverty.
> 
> We may have great difficulty relating with perpetrators of child  abuse, but the fact is none of these incidents occur in a vacuum. There is poverty and a lack of education in many places in our world, even inside our own country, and unfortunate incidents happen. The child of course is a victim, but often perpetrators are victims, too, of their own pasts and their experiences.
> 
> I think about another form of child abuse, the sexual abuse of young children by adults.  I live in a place where it is so common and kept so secret. Even for the victims, I dont know what is better, keeping the secret or bringing it in the open.
> 
> The abuse of children is a horrible thing and all societies confront it.
> 
> *Demonizing groups and people does not fix the problem*.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You might begin by apologizing for your own attempts to do exactly such demonizing:  it was the choice you made for most of the 70 preceeding pages.
> 
> I've no patience with lecturing on morality coming from such a blatant hypocrite.  (It's behavior typical of thse with narcissistic personality disorders, incidentally - to engage in 'turnabouts' and act as though nothing had happened.)
> 
> We ALL make choices, and we each should expect to have to live with the results.  You have no 'leg' to stand on in this instance.
Click to expand...



Bringing up the fact that members of all religions , to include Jews, , have participated in child marriage and still do is simply setting forth facts.


----------



## irosie91

Coyote said:


> irosie91 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> It's not my "obsession".  It's the "obsession" with UNICEF and other human rights groups who are actively trying put an end to child marriages.  If you feel it's an "obsession" - take it up with them.  At least they're doing something about it beyond raging on the internet
> 
> I don't believe anyone claimed it was an accident.  What an odd thing to say.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What would you expect  UNICEF  to say?     UNICEF is all about
> "CURE THE WORLD THRU SUBSIDIZED EDUCATION AND OPPORTUNITY"
> 
> "just drop your coins in the box"
> UNICEF is,   very much,   a self perpetuating institution---it is not
> an omniscient deity
> 
> I do agree with them----rich people are not poor      Marie Antoinette married at age 17
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Marie was wed over two hundred years ago...things change...
Click to expand...



Not so much-------and not everywhere and not with all people.      My point is that your 
definition of abuse as  "marriage under age 18"     is silly       FORCED MARRIAGE  
is abuse.      and banging an 8 year old to death is abuse


----------



## SherriMunnerlyn

irosie91 said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> irosie91 said:
> 
> 
> 
> What would you expect  UNICEF  to say?     UNICEF is all about
> "CURE THE WORLD THRU SUBSIDIZED EDUCATION AND OPPORTUNITY"
> 
> "just drop your coins in the box"
> UNICEF is,   very much,   a self perpetuating institution---it is not
> an omniscient deity
> 
> I do agree with them----rich people are not poor      Marie Antoinette married at age 17
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Marie was wed over two hundred years ago...things change...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Not so much-------and not everywhere and not with all people.      My point is that your
> definition of abuse as  "marriage under age 18"     is silly       FORCED MARRIAGE
> is abuse.      and banging an 8 year old to death is abuse
Click to expand...


Child marriage is defined in the year 2013 by human righrs groups as  marriage under 18.

You either discuss the fictitious story in the OP in the context of child marriage or the context of child abuse.

Certainly, no societies are free of child abuse. I remember a recent story we were discussing of an Israeli woman who murdered her two young daughters. That true case of child abuse is every much as brutal as the fictitious tale spun in the OP. And it discloses problems Israels colonialist settlers deal with, as they become immigrants in Israel.


----------



## Hollie

Coyote said:


> irosie91 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> It's not my "obsession".  It's the "obsession" with UNICEF and other human rights groups who are actively trying put an end to child marriages.  If you feel it's an "obsession" - take it up with them.  At least they're doing something about it beyond raging on the internet
> 
> I don't believe anyone claimed it was an accident.  What an odd thing to say.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What would you expect  UNICEF  to say?     UNICEF is all about
> "CURE THE WORLD THRU SUBSIDIZED EDUCATION AND OPPORTUNITY"
> 
> "just drop your coins in the box"
> UNICEF is,   very much,   a self perpetuating institution---it is not
> an omniscient deity
> 
> I do agree with them----rich people are not poor      Marie Antoinette married at age 17
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Marie was wed over two hundred years ago...things change...
Click to expand...


And sometimes they don't. Life, as it existed for women in 7th century Middle East is really not much different today.

You couldn't have missed the harsh reaction from Westerners when discussing women's rights and status. One of the things we all abhor is the treatment of women in patriarchal islamist cultures --in fact, over all, Westerners are very much revolted by the sub-human status of Islamic women under Sharia.

What has changed? If it were just laws that affected the status of equal rights applied to women and minorities then how did such laws get put on the books? Clearly, some  perspectives about humanity have undergone some sort of inherent change. The trend is clearly away from more barbaric tendencies and towards more cooperative and compassionate ones, at least for some of humanity.

Much of the world is recognizing that subjugation of about one-half of the world's population  is abhorrent and unproductive in terms of overall human survival.  Humanity backslides for certain and some ideologies continue to refuse reform and enlightenment. But with each act of horror, we seem to learn a little bit and we push a little more forward... at least some of us. We repeat our mistakes, but we also grow more inclusive, sympathetic and empathetic to the plight of those around us... at least some of us. Ghandi certainly recognized this aspect of human nature, as did Martin Luther King.


----------



## SherriMunnerlyn

All of us are not as eager for WWIII as Hollie so obviously is.

We do not see Islam as evil incarnate, we many of us have no stomach or heart for all of this demonization and hate . 

Americans will not support another war for Israel, no matter how you try to sell it.


----------



## Roudy

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> The incident addressed in the OP did not even happen.
> 
> And let us just call it what it is, if it had happened, child abuse.
> 
> And when I look for articles about child abuse, I find a leading cause for it is Poverty.
> 
> We may have great difficulty relating with perpetrators of child  abuse, but the fact is none of these incidents occur in a vacuum. There is poverty and a lack of education in many places in our world, even inside our own country, and unfortunate incidents happen. The child of course is a victim, but often perpetrators are victims, too, of their own pasts and their experiences.
> 
> I think about another form of child abuse, the sexual abuse of young children by adults.  I live in a place where it is so common and kept so secret. Even for the victims, I dont know what is better, keeping the secret or bringing it in the open.
> 
> The abuse of children is a horrible thing and all societies confront it.
> 
> Demonizing groups and people does not fix the problem.


And...You have great difficulty understanding that Islam is a main contributor to the prevalence of child marriage among Muslims.


----------



## toastman

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> All of us are not as eager for WWIII as Hollie so obviously is.
> 
> We do not see Islam as evil incarnate, we many of us have no stomach or heart for all of this demonization and hate .
> 
> Americans will not support another war for Israel, no matter how you try to sell it.



And you base your claims on what? ??

Sherri, do you even think before you post ? You make absolutely no fuckin sense. It's as if you just take anything out your ass and post it here. 
Do you understand why every poster here thinks you have mental issues?


----------



## Roudy

Yup.  Muslims raping 9 year olds all across the Muslim world because their 54 year old prophet did so...guess what....ITS THE JOOOOS FAULT!


----------



## toastman

Roudy said:


> SherriMunnerlyn said:
> 
> 
> 
> The incident addressed in the OP did not even happen.
> 
> And let us just call it what it is, if it had happened, child abuse.
> 
> And when I look for articles about child abuse, I find a leading cause for it is Poverty.
> 
> We may have great difficulty relating with perpetrators of child  abuse, but the fact is none of these incidents occur in a vacuum. There is poverty and a lack of education in many places in our world, even inside our own country, and unfortunate incidents happen. The child of course is a victim, but often perpetrators are victims, too, of their own pasts and their experiences.
> 
> I think about another form of child abuse, the sexual abuse of young children by adults.  I live in a place where it is so common and kept so secret. Even for the victims, I dont know what is better, keeping the secret or bringing it in the open.
> 
> The abuse of children is a horrible thing and all societies confront it.
> 
> Demonizing groups and people does not fix the problem.
> 
> 
> 
> And...You have great difficulty understanding that Islam is a main contributor to the prevalence of child marriage among Muslims.
Click to expand...


The funniest part was when she said that  : "*Demonizing groups and people does not fix the problem*
That's what she does all fuckin day !! What a demented Nazi hypocrite this POS is


----------



## Hossfly

JohnA said:


> Hossfly said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JohnA said:
> 
> 
> 
> i quess priests fucking litle boys dont count
> 
> 
> 
> Who invited you? Knock before entering and wipe your muddy paws.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I  dont need a invite from the likes  of you  meathead when your a person of importance you can do the inviting
Click to expand...

Did you wipe your paws this time? And that's Sir Meathead to you, Reverend.


----------



## Roudy

Sunni Man said:


> irosie91 said:
> 
> 
> 
> The sad news is that hubby's grandmother was raped and murdered as a young mother
> of three----the two babies died with her ------The only good news is that the experience
> of the beauty of shariah did galvanized hubby's  grandfather to get his son----and the
> little orphan OUT OF THAT HELL HOLE
> 
> 
> 
> Don't you ever get tired of rehashing your 40 yr. old antecedal stories allegedly told to you by family members??
> 
> I know that we are all sick of hearing them.........
Click to expand...

Well technically Mohammad was 54 and Aisha 6 when he was engaged to her. So he waited an entire 2 years before he raped er married her when she became 8. 

Such a patient, kind man.


----------



## Roudy

toastman said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SherriMunnerlyn said:
> 
> 
> 
> The incident addressed in the OP did not even happen.
> 
> And let us just call it what it is, if it had happened, child abuse.
> 
> And when I look for articles about child abuse, I find a leading cause for it is Poverty.
> 
> We may have great difficulty relating with perpetrators of child  abuse, but the fact is none of these incidents occur in a vacuum. There is poverty and a lack of education in many places in our world, even inside our own country, and unfortunate incidents happen. The child of course is a victim, but often perpetrators are victims, too, of their own pasts and their experiences.
> 
> I think about another form of child abuse, the sexual abuse of young children by adults.  I live in a place where it is so common and kept so secret. Even for the victims, I dont know what is better, keeping the secret or bringing it in the open.
> 
> The abuse of children is a horrible thing and all societies confront it.
> 
> Demonizing groups and people does not fix the problem.
> 
> 
> 
> And...You have great difficulty understanding that Islam is a main contributor to the prevalence of child marriage among Muslims.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The funniest part was when she said that  : "*Demonizing groups and people does not fix the problem*
> That's what she does all fuckin day !! What a demented Nazi hypocrite this POS is
Click to expand...

Exactly, she spends her entire living breathing time demonizing Jews.


----------



## Hollie

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> All of us are not as eager for WWIII as Hollie so obviously is.
> 
> We do not see Islam as evil incarnate, we many of us have no stomach or heart for all of this demonization and hate .
> 
> Americans will not support another war for Israel, no matter how you try to sell it.



Such pointless melodrama, Sherry. Nowhere did my comments make any suggestion of war.

Your jooooo obsession is a pathology. You need help.


----------



## Roudy

Coyote said:


> irosie91 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> Sherri makes one very good point.  You and your supporters don't give a damn that it occurs in non-Muslim countries.  All your posts are focused on Islam.  What do you really care about child brides and the brutality they have to endure?  You only care that's it is another way you can demonize Islam.
> 
> Not once do you address the actual issue - what these girls go through, how they are treated and what can be done.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You are talking about FAMILY LIFE IN YEMEN------nothing can be done.    Stuff
> can be done  (with great difficulty)  in the USA   about that which yemenis do
> at home  ---but nothing in a sovereign shariah adherent country---with lots of hills
> and tribal enclaves.     I had a ---professional interaction----from which I learned
> that amongst yemeni muslims----a girl has no friends -----her own mother and
> brothers  will  side with her abusive husband   (that interaction took place here
> in the USA)     Getting back to the case at hand-----the father of the dead
> girl had six daughters and no sons.     Think about his situation right now.
> I can help------he will not dare to complain about what happened and is very
> likely to cooperate with a cover-up
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I was thinking more about what can be done about the issue world wide, but you make good points about Yemen - very tribal, backwards, and the poorest nation in the ME.  The central government is not very effective either.
Click to expand...

In Muslim societies, the best solution is Muslim clerics, Mosques, and Islamic leaders need to let their voices be heard, and denounce this practice as an "Islamic right". Right now they are doing the EXACT OPPOSITE.


----------



## MHunterB

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> The story in the OP is not true.
> 
> Try to deal with Reality!



The 'Reality' is that you are a lying hypocritical fraud.  You are about the *only* one who's been unable to deal with the reality that you've chosen to squat on chatboards during most of your waking moments seeking any means to post disgusting Nazi-type propaganda attacking the religion of Judaism, Jewish people AND of course the State of Israel, as well as anyone around the globe who doesn't share your precise bigotry.

I recall few posters so devoted to spreading the filth that they'd keep it going while taking a child to the ER.......


----------



## Hollie

Roudy said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> irosie91 said:
> 
> 
> 
> The sad news is that hubby's grandmother was raped and murdered as a young mother
> of three----the two babies died with her ------The only good news is that the experience
> of the beauty of shariah did galvanized hubby's  grandfather to get his son----and the
> little orphan OUT OF THAT HELL HOLE
> 
> 
> 
> Don't you ever get tired of rehashing your 40 yr. old antecedal stories allegedly told to you by family members??
> 
> I know that we are all sick of hearing them.........
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Well technically Mohammad was 54 and Aisha 6 when he was engaged to her. So he waited an entire 2 years before he raped er married her when she became 8.
> 
> Such a patient, kind man.
Click to expand...


The pinnacle of Moslem manhood - women as property.


----------



## toastman

MHunterB said:


> SherriMunnerlyn said:
> 
> 
> 
> The story in the OP is not true.
> 
> Try to deal with Reality!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The 'Reality' is that you are a lying hypocritical fraud.  You are about the *only* one who's been unable to deal with the reality that you've chosen to squat on chatboards during most of your waking moments seeking any means to post disgusting Nazi-type propaganda attacking the religion of Judaism, Jewish people AND of course the State of Israel, as well as anyone around the globe who doesn't share your precise bigotry.
> 
> I recall few posters so devoted to spreading the filth that they'd keep it going while taking a child to the ER.......
Click to expand...




Well said Marge !!


----------



## Roudy

Hollie said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> 
> Don't you ever get tired of rehashing your 40 yr. old antecedal stories allegedly told to you by family members??
> 
> I know that we are all sick of hearing them.........
> 
> 
> 
> Well technically Mohammad was 54 and Aisha 6 when he was engaged to her. So he waited an entire 2 years before he raped er married her when she became 8.
> 
> Such a patient, kind man.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The pinnacle of Moslem manhood - women as property.
Click to expand...

Mohammad was, according to Muslims and Islam, "an example of a human being perfect in every way". Including, but not limited to, raping er marrying an eight year old. So why shouldn't Muslim men follow in the footsteps of "the final messenger", and have their way with some eight year olds themselves, I ask?


----------



## Sweet_Caroline

I believe I have heard it said that Muslims aspire to being just like their prophet.  It is a "do as I do" philosophy.


----------



## MHunterB

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> All of us are not as eager for WWIII as Hollie so obviously is.
> 
> We do not see Islam as evil incarnate, we many of us have no stomach or heart for all of this demonization and hate .
> 
> Americans will not support another war for Israel, no matter how you try to sell it.



Ah, the lying whore for HAMAS yelps again, slinking out from under her rock to try demonizing another poster because she's too cowardly to face the opprobrium she has earned with her hypocrisy. 

It isn't working, l'il sherriKKKins......  You've just borne false witness against Hollie here.  But as long as you pimp that lie to yourself that *you* don't demonize or hate, oh no! - then you can strut about preening yourself and informing everyone how much more moral you are.   

Too bad it's all a lie you keep telling yourself.


----------



## MHunterB

Sunni Man said:


> irosie91 said:
> 
> 
> 
> The sad news is that hubby's grandmother was raped and murdered as a young mother
> of three----the two babies died with her ------The only good news is that the experience
> of the beauty of shariah did galvanized hubby's  grandfather to get his son----and the
> little orphan OUT OF THAT HELL HOLE
> 
> 
> 
> Don't you ever get tired of rehashing your 40 yr. old antecedal stories allegedly told to you by family members??
> 
> I know that we are all sick of hearing them.........
Click to expand...


Pssst, Sunnni:  You have the ability to skip over her posts if you don't like 'em.  Freedom of speech does not require anyone to listen, pay attention, or respond.


----------



## Roudy

Sweet_Caroline said:


> I believe I have heard it said that Muslims aspire to being just like their prophet.  It is a "do as I do" philosophy.


Just like Christians aspire to be as Jesus was. "What would Jesus do"...in Muslims' case it's "what would Mohammed do?" And we are seeing them do just that.


----------



## MHunterB

I agree with Coyote in this much:  this thread SHOULD be about how to prevent children under 16 or so from being abused by much older males.  And not about taking pokes at Islam-per-se.  I think it's entirely reasonable to condemn the words of that putz legislator in Iran who asserted it was 'right' and 'pious' to insist girls be married at age 9.  But it is dead wrong to attack all of Islam as approving.  While 'emulating the Prophet' is indeed an ideal in Islam in much the way that 'emulating Jesus' is in Christianity - it does not appear as though all Muslim clerics include marrying a 9 year old as part of that.

Until someone can *prove* that such is 'mainstream' Islamic practice, it is wrong to condemn it as being such.

Although it is certainly looking as though -IN SOME ISOLATED BACKWOODS TRIBAL AREAS! - some fringe extremists do practice such abusive 'custom', and Yemen and Afghanistan and Iran seem to be the 'hotspots' for such.



In the US where the problem is not so much


----------



## MHunterB

Roudy said:


> Sweet_Caroline said:
> 
> 
> 
> I believe I have heard it said that Muslims aspire to being just like their prophet.  It is a "do as I do" philosophy.
> 
> 
> 
> Just like Christians aspire to be as Jesus was. "What would Jesus do"...in Muslims' case it's "what would Mohammed do?" And we are seeing them do just that.
Click to expand...


Yes - SOME of the Muslims.   And it were best that the rest of the Muslims dealt with it and corrected them - but I think that's unlikely to happen until there are some stable representative governments in those nations.

The OVERALL problem remains, though - and we could discussing what can be done about it in areas where there IS some chance of success.  I'd prefer that - much though I enjoy bitch-slapping that lying HAMAS whore for her hypocrisy, even she could possibly have something to contribute to seeking to solve the problem.


----------



## MHunterB

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> MHunterB said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SherriMunnerlyn said:
> 
> 
> 
> The incident addressed in the OP did not even happen.
> 
> And let us just call it what it is, if it had happened, child abuse.
> 
> And when I look for articles about child abuse, I find a leading cause for it is Poverty.
> 
> We may have great difficulty relating with perpetrators of child  abuse, but the fact is none of these incidents occur in a vacuum. There is poverty and a lack of education in many places in our world, even inside our own country, and unfortunate incidents happen. The child of course is a victim, but often perpetrators are victims, too, of their own pasts and their experiences.
> 
> I think about another form of child abuse, the sexual abuse of young children by adults.  I live in a place where it is so common and kept so secret. Even for the victims, I dont know what is better, keeping the secret or bringing it in the open.
> 
> The abuse of children is a horrible thing and all societies confront it.
> 
> *Demonizing groups and people does not fix the problem*.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You might begin by apologizing for your own attempts to do exactly such demonizing:  it was the choice you made for most of the 70 preceeding pages.
> 
> I've no patience with lecturing on morality coming from such a blatant hypocrite.  (It's behavior typical of thse with narcissistic personality disorders, incidentally - to engage in 'turnabouts' and act as though nothing had happened.)
> 
> We ALL make choices, and we each should expect to have to live with the results.  You have no 'leg' to stand on in this instance.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Bringing up the fact that members of all religions , to include Jews, , have participated in child marriage and still do is simply setting forth facts.
Click to expand...


Stop lying about what you've been up to on this thread:  we can all see the posts you made, and the scurrilous and hate-filled 'sources' which you dragged onto it as you got more shrill and desperate to attack.

Your own words stand witness to your continuing to lie about your intent.


----------



## Coyote

Roudy said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> irosie91 said:
> 
> 
> 
> You are talking about FAMILY LIFE IN YEMEN------nothing can be done.    Stuff
> can be done  (with great difficulty)  in the USA   about that which yemenis do
> at home  ---but nothing in a sovereign shariah adherent country---with lots of hills
> and tribal enclaves.     I had a ---professional interaction----from which I learned
> that amongst yemeni muslims----a girl has no friends -----her own mother and
> brothers  will  side with her abusive husband   (that interaction took place here
> in the USA)     Getting back to the case at hand-----the father of the dead
> girl had six daughters and no sons.     Think about his situation right now.
> I can help------he will not dare to complain about what happened and is very
> likely to cooperate with a cover-up
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I was thinking more about what can be done about the issue world wide, but you make good points about Yemen - very tribal, backwards, and the poorest nation in the ME.  The central government is not very effective either.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> In Muslim societies, the best solution is Muslim clerics, Mosques, and Islamic leaders need to let their voices be heard, and denounce this practice as an "Islamic right". Right now *they are doing the EXACT OPPOSITE.*
Click to expand...


That's not entirely true.  It depends on where.  There are many who are speaking out against it, saying Islam does not condone underage marriage and pushing for legislation to mandate and enforce minimum ages.  The difficulty is you huge areas that are under-educated, impoverished, tribal that need to be over come.


----------



## Hossfly

irosie91 said:


> SherriMunnerlyn said:
> 
> 
> 
> JEWS are participants in child marriages too.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This thread is about a  40 year old man who pounded an eight year old to death----not
> particularly a  "child marriage"       Forced sex upon a wife in Jewish law is utterly and
> completely disallowed.       At to the jews of Yemen---they are utterly fascinated with
> MAIMONIDES and every  word he wrote which they consider authoritative   (it verges on
> neurotic)      My own mother-in-law was  married at about age 12-----or 11----Her father
> had died making her in danger of physical confiscation and legal enslavement to the local
> imam    (imam is the term yemeni muslims use for their chieftains---even the KING was
> called  "IMAM"   back then)   In any case---even you can read maimonides if you wish----
> he effectively declared  LAW-----and outlawed any hint of coercion in sex to the point
> that he disallowed quarreling spouses to engage in sex or------fascinatingly,   did not allow
> a husband to wake his wife from sleep in order to engage in sex and  (gasp)  considered
> any attempt to so engage while she was asleep to be  a perversion.    The lady had to
> be awake and entirely willing-------I will not get into his foreplay advice-----you can seek
> that yourself.    Also ---like Hindus of India----kids who are "married"   or often
> "married"  for quite awhile---only by virtue of  Betrothal.      I understand that you
> never read the New Testament----however the description of the conception
> of Jesus----involves a miraculous conversation between Mary and Gabriel (?) ----
> in which the betrothed  Mary states that she never had sex     She is thought to
> be 14 at that time----all of which would be consistent with the   more's of pharisee
> jews in her time.    Notice that she was never pounded to death.
> 
> UNDER 18 marriage as a definition for   CHILD ABUSE THRU FORCED MARRIAGE-----
> is silly.      however it is a good idea in places in which force is actually a real problem---
> like India and muslim countries ---and lots of african countries of any creed
> 
> now what point were you struggling to make?     Baptists  are also
> known to engage in very early marriages ------Loretta Lynn---was 14
Click to expand...

Jerry Lee Lewis was 14 when he married a 17 year old. He also liked to stay close to home and married a 13 year old cousin when he was 22. He is from a religious family and is cousin to Mickey Gilley and Rev Jimmy Swaggert.


----------



## MHunterB

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> irosie91 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> Marie was wed over two hundred years ago...things change...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Not so much-------and not everywhere and not with all people.      My point is that your
> definition of abuse as  "marriage under age 18"     is silly       FORCED MARRIAGE
> is abuse.      and banging an 8 year old to death is abuse
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Child marriage is defined in the year 2013 by human righrs groups as  marriage under 18.
> 
> You either discuss the fictitious story in the OP in the context of child marriage or the context of child abuse.
> 
> Certainly, no societies are free of child abuse. I remember a recent story we were discussing of an Israeli woman who murdered her two young daughters. That true case of child abuse is every much as brutal as the fictitious tale spun in the OP. And it discloses problems Israels colonialist settlers deal with, as they become immigrants in Israel.
Click to expand...


Again with the lying and the continuing to attack Jews, Judaism and Israel.  What a filthy vile creature you are choosing to be!

Don't you see that all of your lying here is as harmful to your soul as you seek to be to the reputation of Judaism, Jews, and Israel ????

Women murder their young children all over the world - remember Andrea Yates, that 'good Christian woman'?   She killed five of her 'spawn', didn't she?

So why did you feel compelled to throw in the filth about 'colonialist settlers'.  We already know that you do not consider those people human, that you believe the Fogel children deserved to die......

Why do you keep reminding everyone that you have NO concern or feelings for children when their parents are Jews?  We've seen you in action:  we know what you are.

Give it up, sherriKKKins:  you ARE a Jew-hater.  At least the likes of an EOTS has the miniscule decency to acknowledge his own bigotry.

*SherriKKKins = the very exemplar of a 'hypocrite Pharisee' *


----------



## MHunterB

Before I completely forget:  in the US it seems we have more of a problem with unwed teen mothers than teen marriages.

I don't have the stats handy, but I believe that the average age of the males involved in getting teen girls pregnant was something like 6-12 years older.  IOW, a girl of 15 'dating' a guy who was 21..... or a 13 y/o with an 18 y/o.   

So this is far less 'teen promiscuity' than it is 'child abuse' by predatory young males.


----------



## Roudy

Coyote said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> I was thinking more about what can be done about the issue world wide, but you make good points about Yemen - very tribal, backwards, and the poorest nation in the ME.  The central government is not very effective either.
> 
> 
> 
> In Muslim societies, the best solution is Muslim clerics, Mosques, and Islamic leaders need to let their voices be heard, and denounce this practice as an "Islamic right". Right now *they are doing the EXACT OPPOSITE.*
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> That's not entirely true.  It depends on where.  There are many who are speaking out against it, saying Islam does not condone underage marriage and pushing for legislation to mandate and enforce minimum ages.  The difficulty is you huge areas that are under-educated, impoverished, tribal that need to be over come.
Click to expand...

When you have a religious leader, which is usually the highest authority, in as you say "impoverished, tribal" Muslim areas tell the ignorant, uneducated people that their religion sanctions child marriage because Mohammad did so, I don't think they need any other excuse to do just that.  LOL


----------



## irosie91

For those of you who do not seem to know-----Osama bin Laden did not 
rise up out of poverty----and he had a university degree in engineering.  
For those of you who do not seem to know-----the Taliban who insist 
that girls remain home and not attend school-----is made up of the 
cream of the crop of  University students and graduates of pakistan.  

The wife that jumped in front of Osama to save him-----was a teenager 
shipped over from Yemen------as a reward for her unusual level of piety.

For the person who claims anything I write from personal experience 
or conversation must be a lie because if it does not exist on google----
I have spoken to  scores of pakistani and indian muslims over the 
past 45 years and ---also since the 1980s when the taliban began 
to flourish in   Afghanistan     (I was acquainted with only one Afghani 
doctor-----but that was very long ago----like 40 years ago and had 
practically no conversation with him)     I can assure that person----
in Pakistan----the medical school graduates are not the poor, oppressed 
and uneducated.    I got my information from them.    The educated of 
Pakistan adulate  the TALIBAN and are very proud to announce that this 
or that relative or classmate ---IS TALIBAN-----and--"you don't understand 
how good is a shariah society"  <<<<  that was the statement of a
young opthalmologist who got pale and began to tremble when I finally 
informed him that I am a jew------he insisted  "NO YOU AREN'T"   I 
never told him that my husband is a survivor of  the shariah cesspit --
Yemen.    I was afraid he might drop dead

Roudy ---shouldn't you be dancing?     Today is simchat torah----first 
year I missed the celebration with the Yemenites      I am collecting Coyote's 
comments for  PURIM


----------



## Jos

This whole thread is based on a Lie


----------



## SherriMunnerlyn

How many times do we have to go through this?

All because there are people intent on spreading hate and lies about Islam, to justify more violence against Muslims, more killing, more wars.


----------



## irosie91

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> How many times do we have to go through this?
> 
> All because there are people intent on spreading hate and lies about Islam, to justify more violence against Muslims, more killing, more wars.




what are you ranting about?     how does the  report of a case of death in a child because 
of rape constitute a  justification for war?       Did someone suggest an attack by the USA 
or by  Israel on Yemen?      You are confused ----blood libels are the meat upon which your 
kith and kin   comitted genocides in the hundreds of millions------not all people are 
so inclined.     Besides-----it happens that the Yemenis ----like the Syrians are busy doing 
a job on each other anyway.   The only people doing any kinds of attacks on Yemen ----
happen to be the SAUDIS  because   SHIITE yemenis on the border are creating problems. 
Try to keep up with reality.         Think hard-----maybe you can blame the  "civil disturbances"  in Yemen on   THE JOOOOOOS           By the way------even the Yemenite 
jews in the USA have nothing to say about the rape and death of the little girl in Yemen---
its nothing new------of course they are happy its not happening to them anymore----

      Happy Simchat Torah!!!!!       and happy they can dance and sing without 
      worrying about the next   pogrom.    It was a good celebration---even the 
      SIKH  guard had a good time


----------



## SherriMunnerlyn

There was no killing of a 8 year old child bride child in Yemen, there is no young girl raped who awaits 200 lasher, just  deceitful stories of Hate spread by people, your pals, intent on demonizing Islam, intent on spreading Hate for Islam, intent on starting wars for Israel to achieve her Imperialistic goals of occupying yet more land of others in the Middle East!!

Your kith and kin are Hate!


----------



## irosie91

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> There was no killing of a 8 year old child bride child in Yemen, there is no young girl raped who awaits 200 lasher, just  deceitful stories of Hate spread by people, your pals, intent on demonizing Islam, intent on spreading Hate for Islam, intent on starting wars for Israel to achieve her Imperialistic goals of occupying yet more land of others in the Middle East!!
> 
> Your kith and kin are Hate!




You're losing it ,,    SHERRI        Your insistence that reports from muslim countries----in 
many cases reported  FIRST IN MUSLIM COUNTRIES are  "zionist lies"-------is comic.  
-----you should fix them up ------like    "well---the ZIONIST CONTROLLED MEDIA 
IN YEMEN-----reported the case"          too bad all the jews left Yemen----no one there 
to blame.     --------But I have good news for you ,   sherri------there are still a few jews 
in Yemen----some stuck there because they were confiscated as children-----you can blame 
THEM!!!!!!   happy now?

Still I am intrigued-----now what sort of war  "FOR ISRAEL"   do you imagine is being 
planned based on a story that a little girl was married to a 40 year old and banged to death?

Just what do you VISUALIZE     as the outcome of this interesting endeavor?
AMERICAN BOYS MARCHING OFF TO SANAA    singing     "DEATH TO THE RAPISTS"?

As to people being lashed and mutilated or beheaded in saudi arabia----speak to a 
saudi-----we got them here in the USA        I do wish to reassure you-------that 
100 or 200 or 300 or 1000 lashes is typically NOT DONE IN ONE SESSION.     It is done 
over A LONG PERIOD OF TIME----TYPICALLY DURING THE IMPRISONMENT -----in 
SPLIT SESSIONS          like ten per week-------doing  100 on a young girl all at once
 would kill her.    See?    the saudis are not so nuts as YOU think they are.


----------



## toastman

MHunterB said:


> SherriMunnerlyn said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> irosie91 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Not so much-------and not everywhere and not with all people.      My point is that your
> definition of abuse as  "marriage under age 18"     is silly       FORCED MARRIAGE
> is abuse.      and banging an 8 year old to death is abuse
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Child marriage is defined in the year 2013 by human righrs groups as  marriage under 18.
> 
> You either discuss the fictitious story in the OP in the context of child marriage or the context of child abuse.
> 
> Certainly, no societies are free of child abuse. I remember a recent story we were discussing of an Israeli woman who murdered her two young daughters. That true case of child abuse is every much as brutal as the fictitious tale spun in the OP. And it discloses problems Israels colonialist settlers deal with, as they become immigrants in Israel.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Again with the lying and the continuing to attack Jews, Judaism and Israel.  What a filthy vile creature you are choosing to be!
> 
> Don't you see that all of your lying here is as harmful to your soul as you seek to be to the reputation of Judaism, Jews, and Israel ????
> 
> Women murder their young children all over the world - remember Andrea Yates, that 'good Christian woman'?   She killed five of her 'spawn', didn't she?
> 
> So why did you feel compelled to throw in the filth about 'colonialist settlers'.  We already know that you do not consider those people human, that you believe the Fogel children deserved to die......
> 
> Why do you keep reminding everyone that you have NO concern or feelings for children when their parents are Jews?  We've seen you in action:  we know what you are.
> 
> Give it up, sherriKKKins:  you ARE a Jew-hater.  At least the likes of an EOTS has the miniscule decency to acknowledge his own bigotry.
> 
> *SherriKKKins = the very exemplar of a 'hypocrite Pharisee' *
Click to expand...


Well said Marge !  
I couldn't have worded it better. 

There are many things that disgust me with Sherri's posting, but the hypocrisy is the one that amazes me the most. She continuously accuses the pro - Israelis of EXACTLY what she is guilty of. It's absolutely incredible. 
The only thing I haven't figured out about Sherri's hatred is why..Why is she such a hateful and angry person??


----------



## SherriMunnerlyn

MHunterB said:


> SherriMunnerlyn said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MHunterB said:
> 
> 
> 
> You might begin by apologizing for your own attempts to do exactly such demonizing:  it was the choice you made for most of the 70 preceeding pages.
> 
> I've no patience with lecturing on morality coming from such a blatant hypocrite.  (It's behavior typical of thse with narcissistic personality disorders, incidentally - to engage in 'turnabouts' and act as though nothing had happened.)
> 
> We ALL make choices, and we each should expect to have to live with the results.  You have no 'leg' to stand on in this instance.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Bringing up the fact that members of all religions , to include Jews, , have participated in child marriage and still do is simply setting forth facts.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Stop lying about what you've been up to on this thread:  we can all see the posts you made, and the scurrilous and hate-filled 'sources' which you dragged onto it as you got more shrill and desperate to attack.
> 
> Your own words stand witness to your continuing to lie about your intent.
Click to expand...


I am sorry you just cannot handle the Truth, but that is not stopping me from speaking it. Truth will not be buried, it shall always be brought into the Light.

Jews and members of all religions have all participated in the practice of child marriages.

Deal with Truth, stop trying so hard to deny it and resist it.


----------



## toastman

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> MHunterB said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SherriMunnerlyn said:
> 
> 
> 
> Bringing up the fact that members of all religions , to include Jews, , have participated in child marriage and still do is simply setting forth facts.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Stop lying about what you've been up to on this thread:  we can all see the posts you made, and the scurrilous and hate-filled 'sources' which you dragged onto it as you got more shrill and desperate to attack.
> 
> Your own words stand witness to your continuing to lie about your intent.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I am sorry you just cannot handle the Truth, but that is not stopping me from speaking it. Truth will not be buried, it shall always be brought into the Light.
> 
> Jews and members of all religions have all participated in the practice of child marriages.
> 
> Deal with Truth, stop trying so hard to deny it and resist it.
Click to expand...


The truth about what a disgusting and vile 'woman' you are has certainly been brought to the light.


----------



## SherriMunnerlyn

irosie91 said:


> SherriMunnerlyn said:
> 
> 
> 
> There was no killing of a 8 year old child bride child in Yemen, there is no young girl raped who awaits 200 lasher, just  deceitful stories of Hate spread by people, your pals, intent on demonizing Islam, intent on spreading Hate for Islam, intent on starting wars for Israel to achieve her Imperialistic goals of occupying yet more land of others in the Middle East!!
> 
> Your kith and kin are Hate!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You're losing it ,,    SHERRI        Your insistence that reports from muslim countries----in
> many cases reported  FIRST IN MUSLIM COUNTRIES are  "zionist lies"-------is comic.
> -----you should fix them up ------like    "well---the ZIONIST CONTROLLED MEDIA
> IN YEMEN-----reported the case"          too bad all the jews left Yemen----no one there
> to blame.     --------But I have good news for you ,   sherri------there are still a few jews
> in Yemen----some stuck there because they were confiscated as children-----you can blame
> THEM!!!!!!   happy now?
> 
> Still I am intrigued-----now what sort of war  "FOR ISRAEL"   do you imagine is being
> planned based on a story that a little girl was married to a 40 year old and banged to death?
> 
> Just what do you VISUALIZE     as the outcome of this interesting endeavor?
> AMERICAN BOYS MARCHING OFF TO SANAA    singing     "DEATH TO THE RAPISTS"?
> 
> As to people being lashed and mutilated or beheaded in saudi arabia----speak to a
> saudi-----we got them here in the USA        I do wish to reassure you-------that
> 100 or 200 or 300 or 1000 lashes is typically NOT DONE IN ONE SESSION.     It is done
> over A LONG PERIOD OF TIME----TYPICALLY DURING THE IMPRISONMENT -----in
> SPLIT SESSIONS          like ten per week-------doing  100 on a young girl all at once
> would kill her.    See?    the saudis are not so nuts as YOU think they are.
Click to expand...


What we have is Propaganda sites spreading lies, and Zionists eating up the lies, rolling in them, the lies fueling hate filled hearts and hate spilling out into hate filled words. 

The story in the OP  never happened, not even a link appears in the OP. And sources in Yemen debunk it as untrue.

The story Toastman started a thread on happened in 2006, and he reported it as happening in September of 2013 in his thread. Besides not happening in 2013, the Saudi leader pardoned the woman and she never received 200 lashes. The thread a complete fabricated n these deceitful Propaganda stories, Zionist lie.

So, you choose to hate based on these deceitful fictitious Propaganda stories , go for it, who am I to tell you not to hate or cleanse your heart of Hate.

But your Hate will not affect me, I refuse to Hate no matter what you say or do.

Roll in your Hate, savor it, fill yourself with it. does it give you comfort and peace and joy?


----------



## SherriMunnerlyn

MHunterB said:


> SherriMunnerlyn said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> irosie91 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Not so much-------and not everywhere and not with all people.      My point is that your
> definition of abuse as  "marriage under age 18"     is silly       FORCED MARRIAGE
> is abuse.      and banging an 8 year old to death is abuse
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Child marriage is defined in the year 2013 by human righrs groups as  marriage under 18.
> 
> You either discuss the fictitious story in the OP in the context of child marriage or the context of child abuse.
> 
> Certainly, no societies are free of child abuse. I remember a recent story we were discussing of an Israeli woman who murdered her two young daughters. That true case of child abuse is every much as brutal as the fictitious tale spun in the OP. And it discloses problems Israels colonialist settlers deal with, as they become immigrants in Israel.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Again with the lying and the continuing to attack Jews, Judaism and Israel.  What a filthy vile creature you are choosing to be!
> 
> Don't you see that all of your lying here is as harmful to your soul as you seek to be to the reputation of Judaism, Jews, and Israel ????
> 
> Women murder their young children all over the world - remember Andrea Yates, that 'good Christian woman'?   She killed five of her 'spawn', didn't she?
> 
> So why did you feel compelled to throw in the filth about 'colonialist settlers'.  We already know that you do not consider those people human, that you believe the Fogel children deserved to die......
> 
> Why do you keep reminding everyone that you have NO concern or feelings for children when their parents are Jews?  We've seen you in action:  we know what you are.
> 
> Give it up, sherriKKKins:  you ARE a Jew-hater.  At least the likes of an EOTS has the miniscule decency to acknowledge his own bigotry.
> 
> *SherriKKKins = the very exemplar of a 'hypocrite Pharisee' *
Click to expand...


Truth I again address, child marriage and child abuse affect people of all different religions and ethnic backgrounds, to include Jews and Israelis.

Try to stop denying Truth, deal with it instead of continuing to renounce and resist it. 

I mentioned a recent case of an immigrant to Israel killing her two children, it happened, all I said was true.


----------



## Moonglow

here you go, my mistake for leaving it out.

Child bride in Yemen dies of internal bleeding on wedding night: activist | Reuters


----------



## Sunni Man

toastman said:


> SherriMunnerlyn said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MHunterB said:
> 
> 
> 
> Stop lying about what you've been up to on this thread:  we can all see the posts you made, and the scurrilous and hate-filled 'sources' which you dragged onto it as you got more shrill and desperate to attack.
> 
> Your own words stand witness to your continuing to lie about your intent.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I am sorry you just cannot handle the Truth, but that is not stopping me from speaking it. Truth will not be buried, it shall always be brought into the Light.
> 
> Jews and members of all religions have all participated in the practice of child marriages.
> 
> Deal with Truth, stop trying so hard to deny it and resist it.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The truth about what a disgusting and vile 'woman' you are has certainly been brought to the light.
Click to expand...

All SherriMunnerlyn does is post the truth as she sees it.

But instead of debating her words.

The juden here resort to vile personal attacks against her.  ..


----------



## Moonglow

> While countries with the highest prevalence of child marriage are concentrated in Western and Sub-Saharan Africa, due to population size, the largest number of child brides reside in South Asia.





> Girls younger than 15 are five times more likely to die in childbirth than women in their 20s. Pregnancy is the leading cause of death worldwide for women ages 15 to 19.
> Child brides face a higher risk of contracting HIV because they often marry an older man with more sexual experience. Girls ages 15 &#8211; 19 are 2 to 6 times more likely to contract HIV than boys of the same age in sub-Saharan Africa.



Child Marriage Facts and Figures | ICRW


----------



## Moonglow

Sherri in the US child brides are off limits, so do not include the US of A.


----------



## toastman

Sunni Man said:


> toastman said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SherriMunnerlyn said:
> 
> 
> 
> I am sorry you just cannot handle the Truth, but that is not stopping me from speaking it. Truth will not be buried, it shall always be brought into the Light.
> 
> Jews and members of all religions have all participated in the practice of child marriages.
> 
> Deal with Truth, stop trying so hard to deny it and resist it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The truth about what a disgusting and vile 'woman' you are has certainly been brought to the light.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> All SherriMunnerlyn does is post the truth as she sees it.
> 
> But instead of debating her words.
> 
> The juden here resort to vile personal attacks against her.  ..
Click to expand...


Since when did you become Sherri's sock puppet ?


----------



## Moonglow

toastman said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> toastman said:
> 
> 
> 
> The truth about what a disgusting and vile 'woman' you are has certainly been brought to the light.
> 
> 
> 
> All SherriMunnerlyn does is post the truth as she sees it.
> 
> But instead of debating her words.
> 
> The juden here resort to vile personal attacks against her.  ..
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Since when did you become Sherri's sock puppet ?
Click to expand...


day one.


----------



## SherriMunnerlyn

Moonglow said:


> Sherri in the US child brides are off limits, so do not include the US of A.



All people do not abide by the law, even when states prohibit marriages below 18 in all circumstances. 

Further, child marriage laws actually vary from state to state and I have read in some states children can marry as young as 14 with parental consent. 

To conclude, child marriages are a problem
 in the US too.


----------



## toastman

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> Moonglow said:
> 
> 
> 
> Sherri in the US child brides are off limits, so do not include the US of A.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> All people do not abide by the law, even when states prohibit marriages below 18 in all circumstances.
> 
> Further, child marriage laws actually vary from state to state and I have read in some states children can marry as young as 14 with parental consent.
> 
> To conclude, child marriages are a problem
> in the US too.
Click to expand...


What states are you talking about and provide a link


----------



## MHunterB

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> MHunterB said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SherriMunnerlyn said:
> 
> 
> 
> Child marriage is defined in the year 2013 by human righrs groups as  marriage under 18.
> 
> You either discuss the fictitious story in the OP in the context of child marriage or the context of child abuse.
> 
> Certainly, no societies are free of child abuse. I remember a recent story we were discussing of an Israeli woman who murdered her two young daughters. That true case of child abuse is every much as brutal as the fictitious tale spun in the OP. And it discloses problems Israels colonialist settlers deal with, as they become immigrants in Israel.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Again with the lying and the continuing to attack Jews, Judaism and Israel.  What a filthy vile creature you are choosing to be!
> 
> Don't you see that all of your lying here is as harmful to your soul as you seek to be to the reputation of Judaism, Jews, and Israel ????
> 
> Women murder their young children all over the world - remember Andrea Yates, that 'good Christian woman'?   She killed five of her 'spawn', didn't she?
> 
> So why did you feel compelled to throw in the filth about 'colonialist settlers'.  We already know that you do not consider those people human, that you believe the Fogel children deserved to die......
> 
> Why do you keep reminding everyone that you have NO concern or feelings for children when their parents are Jews?  We've seen you in action:  we know what you are.
> 
> Give it up, sherriKKKins:  you ARE a Jew-hater.  At least the likes of an EOTS has the miniscule decency to acknowledge his own bigotry.
> 
> *SherriKKKins = the very exemplar of a 'hypocrite Pharisee' *
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Truth I again address, child marriage and child abuse affect people of all different religions and ethnic backgrounds, to include Jews and Israelis.
> 
> Try to stop denying Truth, deal with it instead of continuing to renounce and resist it.
> 
> I mentioned a recent case of an immigrant to Israel killing her two children, it happened, all I said was true.
Click to expand...


SherriKKKins trying yet again to 'address' truth by seeking to murder it.  Nobody pretended that child abuse or underage marriage doesn't exist among Jews or Israelis .  But the filthy sherrithing insisted on spewing filth about 'colonialism' where it was irrelevant:  the act of a bigot.

I haven't denied any truth: it's sherrimunneriar who denies the truth.  Especially whenever she pretends to be a 'follower of Jesus', a 'humanitarian', someone who cares about 'children'.......all lies.  She only cares about people's lives as long as they're not Jew or Zionists.

SherriKKKins believes it were better people had never been born, than to have been raised by Zionists.  What she spit at that one Israeli poster,  she spit it at all who do not seek Israel's destruction as she does.

How can a person pretend to be a 'humanitarian pacifist' while they lust after the destruction of an entire nation full of many different sorts of people?


----------



## SherriMunnerlyn

Revealed: Harrowing ordeal of child bride forced to marry her stepbrother who escaped Warren Jeffs' polygamous sect with her six young children

Ruby Jessop forced to marry second cousin and step-brother Haven Barlow at 14 when he was in his 20sNow 26, she has six children aged two to ten

This was in the US, in Utah.

Ruby Jessop: The incredible story of child bride who escaped Warren Jeffs' polygamous sect | Mail Online


----------



## SherriMunnerlyn

Moonglow said:


> Sherri in the US child brides are off limits, so do not include the US of A.



Why is that?

Sounds like Hypocrisy to demonize others for the practice and excuse us when we do it.


----------



## Moonglow

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> Moonglow said:
> 
> 
> 
> Sherri in the US child brides are off limits, so do not include the US of A.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> All people do not abide by the law, even when states prohibit marriages below 18 in all circumstances.
> 
> Further, child marriage laws actually vary from state to state and I have read in some states children can marry as young as 14 with parental consent.
> 
> To conclude, child marriages are a problem
> in the US too.
Click to expand...

14 is not 8 years old.


----------



## MHunterB

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> MHunterB said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SherriMunnerlyn said:
> 
> 
> 
> Bringing up the fact that members of all religions , to include Jews, , have participated in child marriage and still do is simply setting forth facts.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Stop lying about what you've been up to on this thread:  we can all see the posts you made, and the scurrilous and hate-filled 'sources' which you dragged onto it as you got more shrill and desperate to attack.
> 
> Your own words stand witness to your continuing to lie about your intent.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I am sorry you just cannot handle the Truth, but that is not stopping me from speaking it. Truth will not be buried, it shall always be brought into the Light.
> 
> Jews and members of all religions have all participated in the practice of child marriages.
> 
> Deal with Truth, stop trying so hard to deny it and resist it.
Click to expand...


No, I'm not stopping you from speaking the truth, sherimunnerliar:  your own bigotry has done that.  And it's what's impelled you to try to bury the truth under your continual vicious invective.

You are the one who cannot handle the truth, sherrifilth - the truth that Jews and Zionists are no better nor worse than anyone else.  Exactly as Muslims or Christians or anyone else.


----------



## MHunterB

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> There was no killing of a 8 year old child bride child in Yemen, there is no young girl raped who awaits 200 lasher, just  deceitful stories of Hate spread by people, your pals, intent on demonizing Islam, intent on spreading Hate for Islam, intent on starting wars for Israel to achieve her Imperialistic goals of occupying yet more land of others in the Middle East!!
> 
> Your kith and kin are Hate!



Wipe the spittle off your chin, and try to focus.  YOU are one of the people intent on spreading hatred, and not at all shy about using filthy lies to do so.

Sherriturd, you're no better than the ones you're accusing - except you are pretending to be somehow different.  You aren't:  if anything, you're worse than they.  Only because you presume to pretend you're more virtuous than anyone else.... you liar and hypocrite.


----------



## SherriMunnerlyn

Teen Marriage License Laws, Minors Requirements, by State

The story in the OP has been debunked as not true.

In the US, marriages under 18 are allowed in many states with parental or court consent.


----------



## toastman

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> Teen Marriage License Laws, Minors Requirements, by State
> 
> The story in the OP has been debunked as not true.
> 
> In the US, marriages under 18 are allowed in many states with parental or court consent.



What makes your article more valid then the one in the OP that says an 8 year old was killed after being raped ?


----------



## MHunterB

Sunni Man said:


> toastman said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SherriMunnerlyn said:
> 
> 
> 
> I am sorry you just cannot handle the Truth, but that is not stopping me from speaking it. Truth will not be buried, it shall always be brought into the Light.
> 
> Jews and members of all religions have all participated in the practice of child marriages.
> 
> Deal with Truth, stop trying so hard to deny it and resist it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The truth about what a disgusting and vile 'woman' you are has certainly been brought to the light.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> All SherriMunnerlyn does is post the truth as she sees it.
> 
> But instead of debating her words.
> 
> The juden here resort to vile personal attacks against her.  ..
Click to expand...



Ohhh, look!  NaziGirl must be soo proud!  One of the Holocaust deniers has come out from under its rock to proclaim her filth and lies 'posting the truth as she sees it'.....

Yeah, she does.  Only the little FACT you're both forgetting is that you're both blinded by your Jew-murdering hatred.

There is no 'debating' people who are bigots.  They are allergic to facts which don't fit into their 'conspiracy' paradigms.

And if either of you liars gave a tinker's dam about the lives of young girls anywhere on the planet - you'd have participated in the discussion about how to end this horror, instead of using the occasion to spew bigoted BS around.


----------



## MHunterB

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> Teen Marriage License Laws, Minors Requirements, by State
> 
> The story in the OP has been debunked as not true.
> 
> In the US, marriages under 18 are allowed in many states with parental or court consent.



It's nice that you're finally trying to pretend you care, liar and hypocrite.  

As I've already pointed out:  in the US the problem is not so much 'underage *marriages*' as it is 'underage unwed pregnancies'.......  The real problem has never been the 'marriage', but the deleterious effects on young girls of intercourse and pregnancy, and the dehumanizing of females in general.


----------



## SherriMunnerlyn

Child marriage always brings with it disadvantages for the child.


----------



## MHunterB

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> Child marriage always brings with it disadvantages for the child.



And being an unwed teen mother or the child of one brings even more disadvantages for both.


----------



## SherriMunnerlyn

The issue is child marriage, not unwed teen mothers.


----------



## toastman

Whenever I see the name SherriMunnerlyn appear on my screen, this is the picture that automatically enters my mind:


----------



## Sunni Man

MHunterB said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> toastman said:
> 
> 
> 
> The truth about what a disgusting and vile 'woman' you are has certainly been brought to the light.
> 
> 
> 
> All SherriMunnerlyn does is post the truth as she sees it.
> 
> But instead of debating her words.
> 
> The juden here resort to vile personal attacks against her.  ..
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Ohhh, look!  NaziGirl must be soo proud!  One of the Holocaust deniers has come out from under its rock to proclaim her filth and lies 'posting the truth as she sees it'.....
> 
> Yeah, she does.  Only the little FACT you're both forgetting is that you're both blinded by your Jew-murdering hatred.
> 
> *There is no 'debating' people who are bigots. * They are allergic to facts which don't fit into their 'conspiracy' paradigms.
> 
> And if either of you liars gave a tinker's dam about the lives of young girls anywhere on the planet - you'd have participated in the discussion about how to end this horror, instead of using the occasion to spew bigoted BS around.
Click to expand...

And yet it's perfectly fine for you spew your bile against people you disagree with and accuse them of all sorts of vile things.  ..


----------



## toastman

Sunni Man said:


> MHunterB said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> 
> All SherriMunnerlyn does is post the truth as she sees it.
> 
> But instead of debating her words.
> 
> The juden here resort to vile personal attacks against her.  ..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ohhh, look!  NaziGirl must be soo proud!  One of the Holocaust deniers has come out from under its rock to proclaim her filth and lies 'posting the truth as she sees it'.....
> 
> Yeah, she does.  Only the little FACT you're both forgetting is that you're both blinded by your Jew-murdering hatred.
> 
> *There is no 'debating' people who are bigots. * They are allergic to facts which don't fit into their 'conspiracy' paradigms.
> 
> And if either of you liars gave a tinker's dam about the lives of young girls anywhere on the planet - you'd have participated in the discussion about how to end this horror, instead of using the occasion to spew bigoted BS around.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> And yet it's perfectly fine for you spew your bile against people you disagree with and accuse them of all sorts of vile things.  ..
Click to expand...


Says the guy who's entire time spent on USMB is devoted to spewing all sorts of vile things.

What is it with the Israel haters on this board and accusing other of what they are obviously guilty of ??? It's a trait that they all share.


----------



## SherriMunnerlyn

Zionist posters here are deaf and dumb and blind to their own Bigotry. 

AND what most stifles debate is posters refusing to address the thread topics and instead persisting in nonstop personal attacks against those whose viewpoints they disagree with. 

Underneath all the personal attacks lies in truth simply a complete inabity to rebut thread arguments.


----------



## MHunterB

Sunni Man said:


> MHunterB said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> 
> All SherriMunnerlyn does is post the truth as she sees it.
> 
> But instead of debating her words.
> 
> The juden here resort to vile personal attacks against her.  ..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ohhh, look!  NaziGirl must be soo proud!  One of the Holocaust deniers has come out from under its rock to proclaim her filth and lies 'posting the truth as she sees it'.....
> 
> Yeah, she does.  Only the little FACT you're both forgetting is that you're both blinded by your Jew-murdering hatred.
> 
> *There is no 'debating' people who are bigots. * They are allergic to facts which don't fit into their 'conspiracy' paradigms.
> 
> And if either of you liars gave a tinker's dam about the lives of young girls anywhere on the planet - you'd have participated in the discussion about how to end this horror, instead of using the occasion to spew bigoted BS around.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> And yet it's perfectly fine for you spew your bile against people you disagree with and accuse them of all sorts of vile things.  ..
Click to expand...


It's  not that I disagree with others:  it's that the 'others' are individuals who lie and pretend to be 'more moral' than everyone else.  

I don't make negative statements about 'Muslims' or 'Arabs':  I make negative statements about people who deny historical fact, suck up to Nazis, and pimp conspiranutter BS filth.  

You don't have to chose to pimp lies and slander against Jews to be a good Muslim, Sunni.  If you imam hasn't explained that to you, maybe you should try going to another.

Tearing down another's religion or people doesn't do anything to build up one's own, Sunni.  It shows a person as stupid and evil.  

I wish that you and Sherri and others would stop behaving that way, and I keep hoping that you will 'choose life', as the GOD we all try to obey has urged us to do.


----------



## HenryBHough

Wondering how Yemen stands on same-sex marriage....from an age viewpoint.  For that matter, how stands Greece.

Stands?


----------



## MHunterB

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> The issue is child marriage, not unwed teen mothers.



NO.  The issue is how societies around the world abuse children - girls in particular.  The child marriage is only one aspect of this problem, which also includes the desperate poverty of widows and children in societies where women are not allowed to work outside the home.


----------



## Sunni Man

MHunterB said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MHunterB said:
> 
> 
> 
> Ohhh, look!  NaziGirl must be soo proud!  One of the Holocaust deniers has come out from under its rock to proclaim her filth and lies 'posting the truth as she sees it'.....
> 
> Yeah, she does.  Only the little FACT you're both forgetting is that you're both blinded by your Jew-murdering hatred.
> 
> *There is no 'debating' people who are bigots. * They are allergic to facts which don't fit into their 'conspiracy' paradigms.
> 
> And if either of you liars gave a tinker's dam about the lives of young girls anywhere on the planet - you'd have participated in the discussion about how to end this horror, instead of using the occasion to spew bigoted BS around.
> 
> 
> 
> And yet it's perfectly fine for you spew your bile against people you disagree with and accuse them of all sorts of vile things.  ..
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> It's  not that I disagree with others:  it's that the 'others' are individuals who lie and pretend to be 'more moral' than everyone else.
> 
> I don't make negative statements about 'Muslims' or 'Arabs':  I make negative statements about people who deny historical fact, suck up to Nazis, and pimp conspiranutter BS filth.
> 
> You don't have to chose to pimp lies and slander against Jews to be a good Muslim, Sunni.  If you imam hasn't explained that to you, maybe you should try going to another.
> 
> Tearing down another's religion or people doesn't do anything to build up one's own, Sunni.  It shows a person as stupid and evil.
> 
> I wish that you and Sherri and others would stop behaving that way, and I keep hoping that you will 'choose life', as the GOD we all try to obey has urged us to do.
Click to expand...

Personally, I am not against jews or Judaism.

But I am opposed to jews who support zionism and Israel.  ..


----------



## SherriMunnerlyn

MHunterB said:


> SherriMunnerlyn said:
> 
> 
> 
> The issue is child marriage, not unwed teen mothers.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> NO.  The issue is how societies around the world abuse children - girls in particular.  The child marriage is only one aspect of this problem, which also includes the desperate poverty of widows and children in societies where women are not allowed to work outside the home.
Click to expand...


So, are you saying unwed teen mothers is child abuse ?


----------



## MHunterB

Sunni Man said:


> MHunterB said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> 
> And yet it's perfectly fine for you spew your bile against people you disagree with and accuse them of all sorts of vile things.  ..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's  not that I disagree with others:  it's that the 'others' are individuals who lie and pretend to be 'more moral' than everyone else.
> 
> I don't make negative statements about 'Muslims' or 'Arabs':  I make negative statements about people who deny historical fact, suck up to Nazis, and pimp conspiranutter BS filth.
> 
> You don't have to chose to pimp lies and slander against Jews to be a good Muslim, Sunni.  If you imam hasn't explained that to you, maybe you should try going to another.
> 
> Tearing down another's religion or people doesn't do anything to build up one's own, Sunni.  It shows a person as stupid and evil.
> 
> I wish that you and Sherri and others would stop behaving that way, and I keep hoping that you will 'choose life', as the GOD we all try to obey has urged us to do.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Personally, I am not against jews or Judaism.
> 
> But I am opposed to jews who support zionism and Israel.  ..
Click to expand...


Are you opposed to HAMAS and Hezbullah?


----------



## SherriMunnerlyn

In Occupations and Colonial enterprises, there will always be Resistance and some will be armed resistance. True in India when they fought Britian, true in South Africa when the people fought Apartheid, true in Lebanon as they have fought and still fight Israeli Occupations, true in Palestine as they struggle against the Zionist Colonial Enterprise and Apartheid. And it was true in America, when we fought for our freedom, too.

I prefer nonviolent resistance, but I see not one bit of difference between any of the people who chose armed resistance in their struggles of peoples to live free from Colonialism and Occupation.


----------



## toastman

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> Zionist posters here are deaf and dumb and blind to their own Bigotry.
> 
> AND what most stifles debate is posters refusing to address the thread topics and instead persisting in nonstop personal attacks against those whose viewpoints they disagree with.
> 
> Underneath all the personal attacks lies in truth simply a complete inabity to rebut thread arguments.



BAHAHAHAHAHA :LOL: :LOL:

Stop it Sherri, please !! You're making me cry from laughing so hard !

Did you know that you just gave an incredibly accurate description of yourself??

I'll ask again : What is it with the anti - Zionist posters and accusing others of what they are guilty of ?


----------



## irosie91

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> The issue is child marriage, not unwed teen mothers.



The issue of this thread is the banging to death of an eight year old child by virtue of 
a forced marriage of a child to an old man in Yemen.


----------



## SherriMunnerlyn

The story in the OP has been debunked as a lie.

Some are so filled with hate they are wedded to hate filled Propaganda, even after they keep being told over and over and over again the filth they believe in is lies.


----------



## irosie91

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> The story in the OP has been debunked as a lie.
> 
> Some are so filled with hate they are wedded to hate filled Propaganda, even after they keep being told over and over and over again the filth they believe in is lies.




the report which first appeared in the press of islamic nations ---including Yemen---
has never been debunked.      For information on forced sex upon minors in Yemen---
talk to a yemeni  ------find an honest yemeni.      The description of the child's injuries 
are entirely credible .     Such injuries have been described in the medical literature 
many times related to rape upon children.     Sexual activity between ELDERLY men----
and little girls has been documented for centuries -------ISLAMIC MEDICAL literature.  
It has,  in the past----been credited with having a  REJUVENATING power for the older male------and even in some cases----more recently-----been touted as a  "cure for aids"


----------



## SherriMunnerlyn

Well, let us see proof the story in rhe OP is true.

I shall not hold my breath waiting, lies are always exposed for what they are.

Noone can prove that lie in that OP is true.


----------



## irosie91

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> Well, let us see proof the story in rhe OP is true.
> 
> I shall not hold my breath waiting, lies are always exposed for what they are.
> 
> Noone can prove that lie in that OP is true.




   what a joke is sherri.    My husband was born in  ADEN YEMEN  -----but he cannot PROVE  it because somehow the birth records of jews born there became  "missing"   
It is not hard to hide reality in barbaric shariah cesspits.     Osama bin Laden knew that---
which is why he went to Afghanistan as soon as the  TALIBAN got their paws on it----and 
why  Al Quaeda is  now  essentially head quartered in Yemen.   It is so easly to HIDE 
in both places. 

   Anyone interested ----talk 
to an elderly yemeni----chances are he does not even know his own birthday-----its an issue 
of  RECORDS


----------



## Roudy

Sunni Man said:


> MHunterB said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> 
> And yet it's perfectly fine for you spew your bile against people you disagree with and accuse them of all sorts of vile things.  ..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's  not that I disagree with others:  it's that the 'others' are individuals who lie and pretend to be 'more moral' than everyone else.
> 
> I don't make negative statements about 'Muslims' or 'Arabs':  I make negative statements about people who deny historical fact, suck up to Nazis, and pimp conspiranutter BS filth.
> 
> You don't have to chose to pimp lies and slander against Jews to be a good Muslim, Sunni.  If you imam hasn't explained that to you, maybe you should try going to another.
> 
> Tearing down another's religion or people doesn't do anything to build up one's own, Sunni.  It shows a person as stupid and evil.
> 
> I wish that you and Sherri and others would stop behaving that way, and I keep hoping that you will 'choose life', as the GOD we all try to obey has urged us to do.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Personally, I am not against jews or Judaism.
> 
> But I am opposed to jews who support zionism and Israel.  ..
Click to expand...

Which basically means, you are against Jews. Who are you kidding?  LOL


----------



## Roudy

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> The story in the OP has been debunked as a lie.
> 
> Some are so filled with hate they are wedded to hate filled Propaganda, even after they keep being told over and over and over again the filth they believe in is lies.


No what happened is, you found some garbage propagandist site, one of many that you frequent, and you posted it as if there was any credibility to it.


----------



## toastman

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> Well, let us see proof the story in rhe OP is true.
> 
> I shall not hold my breath waiting, lies are always exposed for what they are.
> 
> Noone can prove that lie in that OP is true.



Idiot, did you not read the OP ?? Why is it that once again you are trying to take attention away from Muslim atrocities ?? Why do you support such behavior ??

You make me want to vomit.


----------



## Roudy

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> Well, let us see proof the story in rhe OP is true.
> 
> I shall not hold my breath waiting, lies are always exposed for what they are.
> 
> Noone can prove that lie in that OP is true.


It's been proven before, liar, the links to all the legitimate articles have been posted.


----------



## SherriMunnerlyn

yada yada yada yada

I see noone can prove the story in the OP is true.


----------



## toastman

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> The story in the OP has been debunked as a lie.
> 
> Some are so filled with hate they are wedded to hate filled Propaganda, even after they keep being told over and over and over again the filth they believe in is lies.



Where has it been debunked as a lie ?


----------



## toastman

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> yada yada yada yada
> 
> I see noone can prove the story in the OP is true.



Huh? What makes you think the article is a lie ???


----------



## toastman

*FOR THOSE OF YOU JUST JOINING US*

The op presented a credible source about a little girl from Yemen dying after her her grown up husband had sex with her on her wedding night.

So Sherri, the supporter of Muslim extremists and criminals, scowered the internet until she found some propaganda article that claimed the OP wasn't true.
And now she is running around this thread saying "The OP is a lie !! It has been debunked as a lie !! Until someone can prove it, it is a lie!"
BTW, Sherri claims to be a lawyer as well ! 

Thanks for reading


----------



## toastman

Here you go Sherri:

http://english.alarabiya.net/en/New...es-of-internal-bleeding-on-wedding-night.html

An Arab site with the same article. Prove it to be a lie


----------



## Roudy

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> yada yada yada yada
> 
> I see noone can prove the story in the OP is true.


I posted five articles from legitimate sites that confirmed the story.  Go back and read them. 

You in turn posted garbage from an Islamist conspiracy site. 

The fact that you ignore the truth doesn't make anything less true. This kind of savagery goes on all the time in Muslim countries. But if you enjoy going up shits creek without a paddle, be our guest.


----------



## Roudy

toastman said:


> Here you go Sherri:
> 
> Yemeni child bride dies of internal bleeding on wedding night - Alarabiya.net English | Front Page
> 
> An Arab site with the same article. Prove it to be a lie


Is she dumb or is she dumb. No wonder she's a Palestinian supporter. To qualify you need to have low IQ and be psychotic, which Sherri passed with flying colors.  From your article:

An eight-year-old Yemeni girl died of internal bleeding on her wedding night after marrying a man five times her age, a social activist and two local residents said, in a case that has caused an outcry in the media and revived debate about child brides.
Arwa Othman, head of Yemen House of Folklore and a leading rights campaigner, said the girl, identified only as Rawan, was married to a 40-year-old man late last week in the town of Meedi in Hajjah province in northwestern Yemen.

&#8220;On the wedding night and after intercourse, she suffered from bleeding and uterine rupture which caused her death,&#8221; Othman told Reuters. &#8220;They took her to a clinic but the medics couldn&#8217;t save her life.&#8221;

Othman said authorities had not taken any action against the girl&#8217;s family or her husband.

* Sherri the lunatic: "But the OP is untrue!  My handlers at the mosque told me so!  *


----------



## toastman

Yemen child marriage: minister calls for ban after death of eight-year-old girl | Global development | theguardian.com

Another one


----------



## Hollie

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> yada yada yada yada
> 
> I see noone can prove the story in the OP is true.



Compelling lawyer-speak. 

Sherry received her degree from the "institute" that advertises on the back of supermarket tabloids.


----------



## irosie91

Roudy said:


> toastman said:
> 
> 
> 
> Here you go Sherri:
> 
> Yemeni child bride dies of internal bleeding on wedding night - Alarabiya.net English | Front Page
> 
> An Arab site with the same article. Prove it to be a lie
> 
> 
> 
> Is she dumb or is she dumb. No wonder she's a Palestinian supporter. To qualify you need to have low IQ and be psychotic, which Sherri passed with flying colors.  From your article:
> 
> An eight-year-old Yemeni girl died of internal bleeding on her wedding night after marrying a man five times her age, a social activist and two local residents said, in a case that has caused an outcry in the media and revived debate about child brides.
> Arwa Othman, head of Yemen House of Folklore and a leading rights campaigner, said the girl, identified only as Rawan, was married to a 40-year-old man late last week in the town of Meedi in Hajjah province in northwestern Yemen.
> 
> On the wedding night and after intercourse, she suffered from bleeding and uterine rupture which caused her death, Othman told Reuters. They took her to a clinic but the medics couldnt save her life.
> 
> Othman said authorities had not taken any action against the girls family or her husband.
> 
> * Sherri the lunatic: "But the OP is untrue!  My handlers at the mosque told me so!  *
Click to expand...




   Roudy     ALarabiya   is  a zionist propaganda rag.     and the saudi royal family are 
   really jews.    -----don't you learn anything by reading this mavelously elucidating  
   message board?          "uterine rupture'"?  ----probably more like  fracture of the 
   pelvis with associated tearing of the supporting tissues of the little complex 
   involving the little uterus and fallopian tubes.     I am surprised that the jewish 
   pathologist in this case ----ie the  guy who did the autopsy------ could not be more 
   specific.


----------



## SherriMunnerlyn




----------



## Jos

Posted on page 67

Yemeni 'child bride' rape horror never happen? Man produces eight-year-old daughter who he claims was never even married






Read more: Is this girl proof that Yemeni 'child bride' rape horror never happened? Man produces eight-year-old daughter who he claims was never even married | Mail Online


----------



## irosie91

what a miracle-----they found another 8 year old girl in Yemen---and this one is still alive


----------



## Hollie

irosie91 said:


> what a miracle-----they found another 8 year old girl in Yemen---and this one is still alive



Yeah. Check out the slug on the girl's left. Did he forget to put down the rubber hose before the photo-op?


----------



## Hossfly

toastman said:


> sherrimunnerlyn said:
> 
> 
> 
> zionist posters here are deaf and dumb and blind to their own bigotry.
> 
> And what most stifles debate is posters refusing to address the thread topics and instead persisting in nonstop personal attacks against those whose viewpoints they disagree with.
> 
> Underneath all the personal attacks lies in truth simply a complete inabity to rebut thread arguments.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> bahahahahaha
> 
> Stop it sherri, please !! You're making me cry from laughing so hard !
> 
> Did you know that you just gave an incredibly accurate description of yourself??
> 
> I'll ask again : What is it with the anti - zionist posters and accusing others of what they are guilty of ?
Click to expand...

t-u-r-n-s-p-e-a-k


----------



## Jos

A drowning-man will clutch at a straw, A drowning zionist will clutch at a straw-man


----------



## irosie91

Jos said:


> A drowning-man will clutch at a straw, A drowning zionist will clutch at a straw-man




  josie------do not give up your day job


----------



## Hossfly

Hollie said:


> SherriMunnerlyn said:
> 
> 
> 
> yada yada yada yada
> 
> I see noone can prove the story in the OP is true.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Compelling lawyer-speak.
> 
> Sherry received her degree from the "institute" that advertises on the back of supermarket tabloids.
Click to expand...

Correction: Matchbook covers.


----------



## Roudy

irosie91 said:


> what a miracle-----they found another 8 year old girl in Yemen---and this one is still alive


And her father even denied she ever married!  Allahuakbar!


----------



## Roudy

Jos said:


> A drowning-man will clutch at a straw, A drowning zionist will clutch at a straw-man


And what do Islamist jendehs like you grab?


----------



## Roudy

Hollie said:


> irosie91 said:
> 
> 
> 
> what a miracle-----they found another 8 year old girl in Yemen---and this one is still alive
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah. Check out the slug on the girl's left. Did he forget to put down the rubber hose before the photo-op?
Click to expand...

Yeah, they look like a bunch of perverts. Sherri's type.


----------



## Roudy

Chos kesafat heyvoun...you really got us red handed there with that bogus article...I guess the doctors and hospital staff that handled the girl must have been lying about the whole thing as well. LOL


----------



## Hoffstra

Roudy said:


> Chos kesafat heyvoun...you really got us red handed there with that bogus article...I guess the doctors and hospital staff that handled the girl must have been lying about the whole thing as well. LOL



and this means?


----------



## Jos

Hoffstra said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Chos kesafat heyvoun...you really got us red handed there with that bogus article...I guess the doctors and hospital staff that handled the girl must have been lying about the whole thing as well. LOL
> 
> 
> 
> 
> and this means?
Click to expand...


Roudy raise's on a busted flush


----------



## Coyote

MHunterB said:


> SherriMunnerlyn said:
> 
> 
> 
> The issue is child marriage, not unwed teen mothers.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> NO.  The issue is how societies around the world abuse children - girls in particular.  The child marriage is only one aspect of this problem, which also includes the desperate poverty of widows and children in societies where women are not allowed to work outside the home.
Click to expand...


The treatment of widow is a particulary poingnant problem in India where widow are almost "invisable" - they are abandoned by family as non-persons.  Yet another side effect of cultures that consider women to have no value outside of their husband.

This is a sidetrack, but have you ever seen the trilogy by Deeta Mehata: Earth, Water, Fire?  Water is the final one, and is about a group of impoverished widows in an Ashram.  One of the widows was a child bride.  The cinematography is beautiful and it deals with some complex social issues.


----------



## MHunterB

Coyote said:


> MHunterB said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SherriMunnerlyn said:
> 
> 
> 
> The issue is child marriage, not unwed teen mothers.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> NO.  The issue is how societies around the world abuse children - girls in particular.  The child marriage is only one aspect of this problem, which also includes the desperate poverty of widows and children in societies where women are not allowed to work outside the home.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The treatment of widow is a particulary poingnant problem in India where widow are almost "invisable" - they are abandoned by family as non-persons.  Yet another side effect of cultures that consider women to have no value outside of their husband.
> 
> This is a sidetrack, but have you ever seen the trilogy by Deeta Mehata: Earth, Water, Fire?  Water is the final one, and is about a group of impoverished widows in an Ashram.  One of the widows was a child bride.  The cinematography is beautiful and it deals with some complex social issues.
Click to expand...


Thanks for the suggestion, Coyote.  I'll have to look for it.....

The problem has various aspects in different places around the globe,  but it exists even in the USA.  Here is some information which I alluded to earlier:

"Fathers of babies born to teens are often significantly older than their female partners. It is estimated that, among girls who have given birth to a child by age 15, 39 percent of the fathers are between the ages of 20 and 29.7
The age gap between teen mothers and their male partners is particularly striking among the youngest adolescents. Among mothers ages 11 to 12, fathers are on average 9.8 years older, and among mothers ages 13 to 14, fathers are on average 4.6 years older."

Pregnancy and Childbearing Among Younger Teens

Married or not, girls under 18 shouldn't be having babies:  now, what do we have to do to prevent that?


----------



## Coyote

MHunterB said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MHunterB said:
> 
> 
> 
> NO.  The issue is how societies around the world abuse children - girls in particular.  The child marriage is only one aspect of this problem, which also includes the desperate poverty of widows and children in societies where women are not allowed to work outside the home.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The treatment of widow is a particulary poingnant problem in India where widow are almost "invisable" - they are abandoned by family as non-persons.  Yet another side effect of cultures that consider women to have no value outside of their husband.
> 
> This is a sidetrack, but have you ever seen the trilogy by Deeta Mehata: Earth, Water, Fire?  Water is the final one, and is about a group of impoverished widows in an Ashram.  One of the widows was a child bride.  The cinematography is beautiful and it deals with some complex social issues.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Thanks for the suggestion, Coyote.  I'll have to look for it.....
> 
> The problem has various aspects in different places around the globe,  but it exists even in the USA.  Here is some information which I alluded to earlier:
> 
> "Fathers of babies born to teens are often significantly older than their female partners. It is estimated that, among girls who have given birth to a child by age 15, 39 percent of the fathers are between the ages of 20 and 29.7
> The age gap between teen mothers and their male partners is particularly striking among the youngest adolescents. *Among mothers ages 11 to 12, fathers are on average 9.8 years older, and among mothers ages 13 to 14, fathers are on average 4.6 years older."*
> 
> Pregnancy and Childbearing Among Younger Teens
> 
> Married or not, girls under 18 shouldn't be having babies:  now, what do we have to do to prevent that?
Click to expand...


That is downright criminal - If the mother is 11 and the father, what 21?  Isn't that pedophilia?  

I agree - they should not be having babies.  It also notes that younger teens are frequently sexually assaulted and coerced.  It's a different sort of problem then child marriages but for one thing - child marriages in the developing world are often to older men, and the girls are frequently abused and eventually abandoned.  Abuse seems to factor into it regardless of where it occurs.


----------

