# Baby Dies After Thrown From Fourth Floor Hospital Parking Garage



## Angelhair

A 7-month-old baby thrown from the fourth floor of a hospital parking lot by his own mother died Wednesday, authorities said.

The child died the same day the mother, Sonia Hermosillo, 31, made an initial court appearance on charges of attempted murder and felony child abuse, a police spokesman said. The charges will now be upgraded to murder, Sgt. Dan Adams, spokesman for the Orange Police Department.

The baby died at the University of California, Irvine, Medical Center.

Prosecutors allege that Hermosillo removed a helmet that her son wore for a medical condition before tossing him from the parking structure at Children's Hospital of Orange County late Monday. She then went back inside the hospital to validate her parking, senior deputy district attorney Scott Simmons said after Hermosillo's hearing.

Hermosillo's husband, Noe Medina, told The Orange County Register in an interview Tuesday that his wife had been hospitalized for postpartum depression in June after she said she didn't want their son, Noe Medina Jr., who was diagnosed with congenital muscular torticollis - a twisting of the neck to one side.

The infant also wore a helmet to help correct his plagiocephaly, also known as flat-head syndrome, the Register reported.

"She didn't look at our son as normal," Medina said. "She didn't accept him. She didn't accept that he was like this."

Medina said the boy was receiving physical therapy twice a week and was showing signs of improvement.

Simmons, the prosecutor, said Hermosillo's behavior showed she intended to kill her son, regardless of her mental state.

"It's not like she's in a fetal position when the police arrived," he said. "She picks a specific location, drives to the top of the building (and) takes the helmet off. I'm sure she's depressed, the post-partum blues, I'm sure she had some of that."

"It's going to be up to a jury to decide if she had the wherewithal to inform the intent to kill."

Hermosillo made a brief court appearance Wednesday, but her arraignment was postponed until Sept. 16.

Orange County Superior Court Judge Joe Perez set bail at $1 million, but federal immigration officials have a no-bail hold to keep her in custody because she is in the U.S. illegally, said Jim Amormino, sheriff's spokesman.

Baby Dies After Thrown From Fourth Floor Hospital Parking Garage | Fox News Latino


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## FuelRod

Eye for an eye.
Toss her from the same.


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## AmericanFirst

More proof illegal immigration is bad for the country. exactly who is paying her medical bills and for the trial? US!!!


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## editec

Tragic.


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## Zona

AmericanFirst said:


> More proof illegal immigration is bad for the country. exactly who is paying her medical bills and for the trial? US!!!



So everything would be different if this was a good ol merican white woman?  


Fucking idiot.


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## Angelhair

Zona said:


> AmericanFirst said:
> 
> 
> 
> More proof illegal immigration is bad for the country. exactly who is paying her medical bills and for the trial? US!!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So everything would be different if this was a good ol merican white woman?
> 
> 
> Fucking idiot.
Click to expand...


_No, not really - but - they should not be here in order to commit such tragic crimes.  Let THEIR countries take the responsibility if they commit ANY crime!!  'Nuff already!!!_


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## freedombecki

Postpartum depression

Complications of Postpartum Depression

I'm so sorry this happened to the poor little baby.


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## whitehall

Why is the story in the immigration forum?


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## WillowTree

AmericanFirst said:


> More proof illegal immigration is bad for the country. exactly who is paying her medical bills and for the trial? US!!!





Doh Ray Me.


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## WillowTree

whitehall said:


> Why is the story in the immigration forum?



Because we the people are stuck paying Mexico's bills once again. Got it?


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## Angelhair

_AND.......the woman is an ILLEGAL alien.  AND who I am sure had this poor child to 'anchor' herself to this country not realizing that the baby might NOT be born 'perfect'._


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## koshergrl

I assume there are people who would have been fine with this if she had aborted at 8 months based on knowledge of the child's defects.

Somehow this is different. 

You foster an environment where imperfect children are disposable, and mothers have the right to kill them in utero...then boo hoo when mothers carry that attitude after the baby is born.

I think it's pretty obvious the woman is ignorant of the child's condition, probably not well versed in English, suffering from depression, and undoubtedly felt she was acting in the best interests of the baby.

All perfectly acceptable reasons to kill babies in this country at this time. Post birth abortion. Get over it.


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## geauxtohell

freedombecki said:


> Postpartum depression
> 
> Complications of Postpartum Depression
> 
> I'm so sorry this happened to the poor little baby.



Postpartum psychosis: Epidemiology, clinical manifestations, and assessment


----------



## geauxtohell

koshergrl said:


> I assume there are people who would have been fine with this if she had aborted at 8 months based on knowledge of the child's defects.
> 
> Somehow this is different.
> 
> You foster an environment where imperfect children are disposable, and mothers have the right to kill them in utero...then boo hoo when mothers carry that attitude after the baby is born.
> 
> I think it's pretty obvious the woman is ignorant of the child's condition, probably not well versed in English, suffering from depression, and undoubtedly felt she was acting in the best interests of the baby.
> 
> All perfectly acceptable reasons to kill babies in this country at this time. Post birth abortion. Get over it.



And we managed to make the abortion connection in less than 18 posts.  

Winner, winner, chicken dinner!


----------



## koshergrl

I just find it perplexing that the same people who fight for a woman's right to destroy her baby in her body have a problem with her destroying the baby once it exits her body. Particularly given the fact that often, the aborted babies are alive upon exiting mom's body at birth.

There's no diff. Live with your choice, love it, embrace it. Moms have the right to kill their offspring. I'm sure it will reduce the welfare rolls and eliminate crime!


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## L.K.Eder

koshergrl said:


> I just find it perplexing that the same people who fight for a woman's right to destroy her baby in her body have a problem with her destroying the baby once it exits her body. Particularly given the fact that often, the aborted babies are alive upon exiting mom's body at birth.
> 
> There's no diff. Live with your choice, love it, embrace it. Moms have the right to kill their offspring. I'm sure it will reduce the welfare rolls and eliminate crime!



fuck off


----------



## geauxtohell

koshergrl said:


> I just find it perplexing that the same people who fight for a woman's right to destroy her baby in her body have a problem with her destroying the baby once it exits her body. Particularly given the fact that often, the aborted babies are alive upon exiting mom's body at birth.
> 
> There's no diff. Live with your choice, love it, embrace it. Moms have the right to kill their offspring. I'm sure it will reduce the welfare rolls and eliminate crime!



I know you find it perplexing.  So perplexing that you feel the need to turn this into yet another abortion thread.

It's okay, I'll bet we solve the whole abortion thing this time!


----------



## hortysir

koshergrl said:


> I just find it perplexing that the same people who fight for a woman's right to destroy her baby in her body have a problem with her destroying the baby once it exits her body. Particularly given the fact that often, the aborted babies are alive upon exiting mom's body at birth.
> 
> There's no diff. Live with your choice, love it, embrace it. Moms have the right to kill their offspring. I'm sure it will reduce the welfare rolls and eliminate crime!



As harsh as that post may sound, she has a point.

We can't agree on when life begins. How do we decide when it should end.


----------



## geauxtohell

hortysir said:


> koshergrl said:
> 
> 
> 
> I just find it perplexing that the same people who fight for a woman's right to destroy her baby in her body have a problem with her destroying the baby once it exits her body. Particularly given the fact that often, the aborted babies are alive upon exiting mom's body at birth.
> 
> There's no diff. Live with your choice, love it, embrace it. Moms have the right to kill their offspring. I'm sure it will reduce the welfare rolls and eliminate crime!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As harsh as that post may sound, she has a point.
> 
> We can't agree on when life begins. How do we decide when it should end.
Click to expand...


Everyone has a point.  The thing with the rabidly pro-life people is that they find a way to interject their point into everything.


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## koshergrl

I guess you miss all the threads that have a pro-death loon interjecting "this is what happens when women are forced to give birth!"


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## freedombecki

Without getting too much into other issues, this is a sad crime all the way around.

Major depression causes many human problems, and they're less pretty by outward perceptions. I gave two good links above that discuss post partum depression and why it is considered a major depression. The disease has a few triggers to exacerbate its symptoms, and this woman had every single solitary trigger going on in her life to cause a chain reaction in her body/mind. On the second link, I called "Complications of Postpartum Depression," everything was in place in the woman's life to trigger murder of the child. Scientists know the chemical trails that trigger insanity. We would expect something like this from a paranoid schizophrenic. It is just more shocking when such behaviors occur in an otherwise gentle person who was never known to act in a vindictive way toward anyone else.

No, the devil didn't make her do it, misfiring chemicals in her brain caused her act. You don't have to trust me, you need a degree in chemistry and another in obstetrics to even partially wrap your mind around this woman's misfortune.

At this time, if this was a recent event, a competent medical team would have this woman sedated with bindings holding her to a bed and 3-minute suicide watch checks. When she comes out of her chemical imbalance and realizes what she has done, she will trigger again and again inappropriate misfirings in her brain. 

That's why I'm so sorry for the baby. He or she didn't have a fighting chance on account of the abdication of care this woman received from other human beings in her life. Had she had any modicum of care, she would have received supportive pointers on how to deal not only with the child's sad issues but her own as well.

She has a long fight ahead of her for many years. When she is well enough to stand trial, I do not know what will happen to her. I only know how sick physicians and caregivers now know that her serious mental illness is, and she should be hospitalized until she is declared mentally fit.

Do not mistake this post as an excuse for murder. The point is the aggravating circumstance of mental illness was not considered serious enough to hospitalize the woman before the event. It is now, and the only competent thing caregivers can do now is to deal with this terrible aftermath of mental illness carried out to the tenth power.


----------



## geauxtohell

freedombecki said:


> Without getting too much into other issues, this is a sad crime all the way around.
> 
> Major depression causes many human problems, and they're less pretty by outward perceptions. I gave two good links above that discuss post partum depression and why it is considered a major depression. The disease has a few triggers to exacerbate its symptoms, and this woman had every single solitary trigger going on in her life to cause a chain reaction in her body/mind. On the second link, I called "Complications of Postpartum Depression," everything was in place in the woman's life to trigger murder of the child. Scientists know the chemical trails that trigger insanity. We would expect something like this from a paranoid schizophrenic. It is just more shocking when such behaviors occur in an otherwise gentle person who was never known to act in a vindictive way toward anyone else.
> 
> No, the devil didn't make her do it, misfiring chemicals in her brain caused her act. You don't have to trust me, you need a degree in chemistry and another in obstetrics to even partially wrap your mind around this woman's misfortune.
> 
> At this time, if this was a recent event, a competent medical team would have this woman sedated with bindings holding her to a bed and 3-minute suicide watch checks. When she comes out of her chemical imbalance and realizes what she has done, she will trigger again and again inappropriate misfirings in her brain.
> 
> That's why I'm so sorry for the baby. He or she didn't have a fighting chance on account of the abdication of care this woman received from other human beings in her life. Had she had any modicum of care, she would have received supportive pointers on how to deal not only with the child's sad issues but her own as well.
> 
> She has a long fight ahead of her for many years. When she is well enough to stand trial, I do not know what will happen to her. I only know how sick physicians and caregivers now know that her serious mental illness is, and she should be hospitalized until she is declared mentally fit.
> 
> Do not mistake this post as an excuse for murder. The point is the aggravating circumstance of mental illness was not considered serious enough to hospitalize the woman before the event. It is now, and the only competent thing caregivers can do now is to deal with this terrible aftermath of mental illness carried out to the tenth power.



Paranoid schizophrenics are far more of a danger to themselves then society.  

It's hard to pin this on the Doctors.  It sounds like her husband was the only one that realized she was struggling.


----------



## freedombecki

geauxtohell said:


> freedombecki said:
> 
> 
> 
> Without getting too much into other issues, this is a sad crime all the way around.
> 
> Major depression causes many human problems, and they're less pretty by outward perceptions. I gave two good links above that discuss post partum depression and why it is considered a major depression. The disease has a few triggers to exacerbate its symptoms, and this woman had every single solitary trigger going on in her life to cause a chain reaction in her body/mind. On the second link, I called "Complications of Postpartum Depression," everything was in place in the woman's life to trigger murder of the child. Scientists know the chemical trails that trigger insanity. We would expect something like this from a paranoid schizophrenic. It is just more shocking when such behaviors occur in an otherwise gentle person who was never known to act in a vindictive way toward anyone else.
> 
> No, the devil didn't make her do it, misfiring chemicals in her brain caused her act. You don't have to trust me, you need a degree in chemistry and another in obstetrics to even partially wrap your mind around this woman's misfortune.
> 
> At this time, if this was a recent event, a competent medical team would have this woman sedated with bindings holding her to a bed and 3-minute suicide watch checks. When she comes out of her chemical imbalance and realizes what she has done, she will trigger again and again inappropriate misfirings in her brain.
> 
> That's why I'm so sorry for the baby. He or she didn't have a fighting chance on account of the abdication of care this woman received from other human beings in her life. Had she had any modicum of care, she would have received supportive pointers on how to deal not only with the child's sad issues but her own as well.
> 
> She has a long fight ahead of her for many years. When she is well enough to stand trial, I do not know what will happen to her. I only know how sick physicians and caregivers now know that her serious mental illness is, and she should be hospitalized until she is declared mentally fit.
> 
> Do not mistake this post as an excuse for murder. The point is the aggravating circumstance of mental illness was not considered serious enough to hospitalize the woman before the event. It is now, and the only competent thing caregivers can do now is to deal with this terrible aftermath of mental illness carried out to the tenth power.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Paranoid schizophrenics are far more of a danger to themselves then society.
> 
> It's hard to pin this on the Doctors.  It sounds like her husband was the only one that realized she was struggling.
Click to expand...

(Untreated, a paranoid schizophrenic is dangerous, period.)  I'm sorry if I came across as pinning on medical personnel. I was thinking more like language barrier issues, which is on top of the issues my link mentioned. I wouldn't be qualified to pin it on anything except the little that I understand about misfiring chemicals in the body. I have fibromyalgia, which is all about misfirings in the muscles that results in screaming out loud pain 24/7. I refused drugs because I'd rather suffer than not to have control of my own faculties, but eventually I found a remedy that minimizes the error in my body that triggers pain, and I could put the occasional neurontin (which stops pain at the spine) I had to take for official occasions on the shelf forever. My pain returns if I withdraw the supplements after 3 days. I don't care to go there, so I am very fastidious about the vitamin supplements regimen. 

If pain can make an old diehard like me scream, I can imagine what postpartum depression misfirings can do to make a monster of a madonna. Unless people know somebody who has had a montrocious disease they cannot see, they really don't know.

A man who has served militarily under fire may have experienced or may know someone who experienced post- traumatic stress disorder/syndrome brought on by noise, death of buddy or person standing next to him, being the only one left in the company after a battle, confinement as a POW under dire conditions, etc. Most people blame the victim of this insidious disease, but it is not their own fault. Some people are wired to accept blood and death, but many aren't, and they wind up in psych wards immediately but temporarily; years later; or in other cases, on a constant basis for the rest of their lives. It's not a nice bedfellow.

Postpartum depression was ignored in the case of the Texas woman who murdered not one but all five of her children. She experienced catatonic episodes and totally lapsed a few weeks after her 5th child was born. She may never get out of jail, I just really don't remember the details, but human beings in society don't like facing up to the consequences of mental illnesses, particularly when you get attorneys and prosecutors competitively gunning for a certain win of their case. And public mental illness cases are seldom forgiven or accepted as medical treatment issues.

The illegal alien woman has three strikes against her, and she doesn't have any way to tell anyone if she cannot describe her experience in our language. People in her own group may not know anything about mental illnesses and their panaceas, which may gross out any chance of her ever being competent to stand trial.


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## uscitizen

I don't support post term abortions.


----------



## freedombecki

uscitizen said:


> I don't support post term abortions.


That's right nice a ya, uscitizen.


----------



## koshergrl

geauxtohell said:


> freedombecki said:
> 
> 
> 
> Without getting too much into other issues, this is a sad crime all the way around.
> 
> Major depression causes many human problems, and they're less pretty by outward perceptions. I gave two good links above that discuss post partum depression and why it is considered a major depression. The disease has a few triggers to exacerbate its symptoms, and this woman had every single solitary trigger going on in her life to cause a chain reaction in her body/mind. On the second link, I called "Complications of Postpartum Depression," everything was in place in the woman's life to trigger murder of the child. Scientists know the chemical trails that trigger insanity. We would expect something like this from a paranoid schizophrenic. It is just more shocking when such behaviors occur in an otherwise gentle person who was never known to act in a vindictive way toward anyone else.
> 
> No, the devil didn't make her do it, misfiring chemicals in her brain caused her act. You don't have to trust me, you need a degree in chemistry and another in obstetrics to even partially wrap your mind around this woman's misfortune.
> 
> At this time, if this was a recent event, a competent medical team would have this woman sedated with bindings holding her to a bed and 3-minute suicide watch checks. When she comes out of her chemical imbalance and realizes what she has done, she will trigger again and again inappropriate misfirings in her brain.
> 
> That's why I'm so sorry for the baby. He or she didn't have a fighting chance on account of the abdication of care this woman received from other human beings in her life. Had she had any modicum of care, she would have received supportive pointers on how to deal not only with the child's sad issues but her own as well.
> 
> She has a long fight ahead of her for many years. When she is well enough to stand trial, I do not know what will happen to her. I only know how sick physicians and caregivers now know that her serious mental illness is, and she should be hospitalized until she is declared mentally fit.
> 
> Do not mistake this post as an excuse for murder. The point is the aggravating circumstance of mental illness was not considered serious enough to hospitalize the woman before the event. It is now, and the only competent thing caregivers can do now is to deal with this terrible aftermath of mental illness carried out to the tenth power.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Paranoid schizophrenics are far more of a danger to themselves then society.
> 
> It's hard to pin this on the Doctors. It sounds like her husband was the only one that realized she was struggling.
Click to expand...

 
No, I don't think so. I thought she had had a court appearance for attempted murder and felony child abuse. The DA knew this woman was trying to kill her kid, or a kid, and likely CW did as well. Why the baby was in her care, who knows.


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## koshergrl

uscitizen said:


> I don't support post term abortions.


 
But you do support post birth abortions, I take it.

You really think you're that adept with the language, that people won't notice the difference?


----------



## whitehall

WillowTree said:


> whitehall said:
> 
> 
> 
> Why is the story in the immigration forum?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Because we the people are stuck paying Mexico's bills once again. Got it?
Click to expand...


I missed that part I guess. Is she an illegal alien?


----------



## freedombecki

koshergrl said:


> uscitizen said:
> 
> 
> 
> I don't support post term abortions.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But you do support post birth abortions, I take it.
> 
> You really think you're that adept with the language, that people won't notice the difference?
Click to expand...

He just said he didn't, koshergrl.
And as for being adept with the language, you need to know that there is no such thing as "post birth abortion."


----------



## geauxtohell

freedombecki said:


> (Untreated, a paranoid schizophrenic is dangerous, period.)  I'm sorry if I came across as pinning on medical personnel. I was thinking more like language barrier issues, which is on top of the issues my link mentioned. I wouldn't be qualified to pin it on anything except the little that I understand about misfiring chemicals in the body. I have fibromyalgia, which is all about misfirings in the muscles that results in screaming out loud pain 24/7. I refused drugs because I'd rather suffer than not to have control of my own faculties, but eventually I found a remedy that minimizes the error in my body that triggers pain, and I could put the occasional neurontin (which stops pain at the spine) I had to take for official occasions on the shelf forever. My pain returns if I withdraw the supplements after 3 days. I don't care to go there, so I am very fastidious about the vitamin supplements regimen.
> 
> If pain can make an old diehard like me scream, I can imagine what postpartum depression misfirings can do to make a monster of a madonna. Unless people know somebody who has had a montrocious disease they cannot see, they really don't know.
> 
> A man who has served militarily under fire may have experienced or may know someone who experienced post- traumatic stress disorder/syndrome brought on by noise, death of buddy or person standing next to him, being the only one left in the company after a battle, confinement as a POW under dire conditions, etc. Most people blame the victim of this insidious disease, but it is not their own fault. Some people are wired to accept blood and death, but many aren't, and they wind up in psych wards immediately but temporarily; years later; or in other cases, on a constant basis for the rest of their lives. It's not a nice bedfellow.
> 
> Postpartum depression was ignored in the case of the Texas woman who murdered not one but all five of her children. She experienced catatonic episodes and totally lapsed a few weeks after her 5th child was born. She may never get out of jail, I just really don't remember the details, but human beings in society don't like facing up to the consequences of mental illnesses, particularly when you get attorneys and prosecutors competitively gunning for a certain win of their case. And public mental illness cases are seldom forgiven or accepted as medical treatment issues.
> 
> The illegal alien woman has three strikes against her, and she doesn't have any way to tell anyone if she cannot describe her experience in our language. People in her own group may not know anything about mental illnesses and their panaceas, which may gross out any chance of her ever being competent to stand trial.



There were probably multiple barriers, to include langauge, cultural, religious, etc.  

At any rate, if you take your hand and stick it over a fire; the pain you feel is produced by your brain.  When you consider that, you understand that the human brain is capable of creating any sensation or reality it wants to.  

People who have lost loved ones have hallucinations of hearing their loved ones voice or sometimes even seeing them.  That is not considered pathologic.  Men who have lost limbs will feel pain in their missing limbs years later.  That is also not pathologic.  

Schizophrenia has been described as a "disorder of thought".  That's a pretty good way of describing it I think.  The brain has all these sensations and abilities to create sensation, but it's lost it's "processing" and "execution" ability so that it will fabricate inappropriate sensations in the absense of actual stimuli.  Psychiatrists love to try and shock medical students by telling bible stories and then putting them through the lens of psychiatric medicine.  For example, the story of the man on the beach possessed by demons called "legion" was most likely schizophrenic.  

If you are religious and the voice of God commands you to throw your baby off a building, who are you to question god?  Abraham didn't.

I don't mean to disparage religion, just to make the point.  I think this woman was probably psychotic.  Rational criminals don't validate their parking after committing a grisley murder like this.  

At any rate, it's all sad.  It's sad this happened, and will continue to happen.  It's sad that their is still a stigma around mental illness.  This woman shouldn't evade justice due to being sick.  But it should be recognized that she is sick.  

I am glad you found something that works for your fibromyalgia that is better then gabapentin.  It's a very frustrating disease to treat.  Where did you stumble upon your treatment if you don't mind me asking.


----------



## freedombecki

geauxtohell said:


> freedombecki said:
> 
> 
> 
> (Untreated, a paranoid schizophrenic is dangerous, period.)  I'm sorry if I came across as pinning on medical personnel. I was thinking more like language barrier issues, which is on top of the issues my link mentioned. I wouldn't be qualified to pin it on anything except the little that I understand about misfiring chemicals in the body. I have fibromyalgia, which is all about misfirings in the muscles that results in screaming out loud pain 24/7. I refused drugs because I'd rather suffer than not to have control of my own faculties, but eventually I found a remedy that minimizes the error in my body that triggers pain, and I could put the occasional neurontin (which stops pain at the spine) I had to take for official occasions on the shelf forever. My pain returns if I withdraw the supplements after 3 days. I don't care to go there, so I am very fastidious about the vitamin supplements regimen.
> 
> If pain can make an old diehard like me scream, I can imagine what postpartum depression misfirings can do to make a monster of a madonna. Unless people know somebody who has had a montrocious disease they cannot see, they really don't know.
> 
> A man who has served militarily under fire may have experienced or may know someone who experienced post- traumatic stress disorder/syndrome brought on by noise, death of buddy or person standing next to him, being the only one left in the company after a battle, confinement as a POW under dire conditions, etc. Most people blame the victim of this insidious disease, but it is not their own fault. Some people are wired to accept blood and death, but many aren't, and they wind up in psych wards immediately but temporarily; years later; or in other cases, on a constant basis for the rest of their lives. It's not a nice bedfellow.
> 
> Postpartum depression was ignored in the case of the Texas woman who murdered not one but all five of her children. She experienced catatonic episodes and totally lapsed a few weeks after her 5th child was born. She may never get out of jail, I just really don't remember the details, but human beings in society don't like facing up to the consequences of mental illnesses, particularly when you get attorneys and prosecutors competitively gunning for a certain win of their case. And public mental illness cases are seldom forgiven or accepted as medical treatment issues.
> 
> The illegal alien woman has three strikes against her, and she doesn't have any way to tell anyone if she cannot describe her experience in our language. People in her own group may not know anything about mental illnesses and their panaceas, which may gross out any chance of her ever being competent to stand trial.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There were probably multiple barriers, to include langauge, cultural, religious, etc.
> 
> At any rate, if you take your hand and stick it over a fire; the pain you feel is produced by your brain.  When you consider that, you understand that the human brain is capable of creating any sensation or reality it wants to.
> 
> People who have lost loved ones have hallucinations of hearing their loved ones voice or sometimes even seeing them.  That is not considered pathologic.  Men who have lost limbs will feel pain in their missing limbs years later.  That is also not pathologic.
> 
> Schizophrenia has been described as a "disorder of thought".  That's a pretty good way of describing it I think.  The brain has all these sensations and abilities to create sensation, but it's lost it's "processing" and "execution" ability so that it will fabricate inappropriate sensations in the absense of actual stimuli.  Psychiatrists love to try and shock medical students by telling bible stories and then putting them through the lens of psychiatric medicine.  For example, the story of the man on the beach possessed by demons called "legion" was most likely schizophrenic.
> 
> If you are religious and the voice of God commands you to throw your baby off a building, who are you to question god?  Abraham didn't.
> 
> I don't mean to disparage religion, just to make the point.  I think this woman was probably psychotic.  Rational criminals don't validate their parking after committing a grisley murder like this.
> 
> At any rate, it's all sad.  It's sad this happened, and will continue to happen.  It's sad that their is still a stigma around mental illness.  This woman shouldn't evade justice due to being sick.  But it should be recognized that she is sick.
> 
> I am glad you found something that works for your fibromyalgia that is better then gabapentin.  It's a very frustrating disease to treat.  Where did you stumble upon your treatment if you don't mind me asking.
Click to expand...

Sure. it's here. One night at choir practice, an acquaintance in the alto section grabbed me and thanked me for talking about it a few months earlier at a choir practice she also went to. When I came out of my shock of being hugged, I said something like "huh?" Then she said she had a terrible neurological disease (neuralgia) and after she took the supplements, she shed 80% of her pain. Actually, she looked like a million bucks which ain't easy for someone who's 80 years old like her. Honest. If you pretend you are ordering and you get to the last button (which you do not have to click) it tells the entire kit and kaboodle of the ingredients, at least it did for the last 7 or 8 years since I started the program. The downside is that it is not by prescription, so your insurance will likely not cover it, even if you are treating arthritis with it (it seems to be quite effective for some with that problem, too, though I never got feedback like the lady who said it really helped her neuralgia).


----------



## koshergrl

freedombecki said:


> koshergrl said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> uscitizen said:
> 
> 
> 
> I don't support post term abortions.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But you do support post birth abortions, I take it.
> 
> You really think you're that adept with the language, that people won't notice the difference?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> He just said he didn't, koshergrl.
> And as for being adept with the language, you need to know that there is no such thing as "post birth abortion."
Click to expand...

 
No, he said he didn't support post TERM abortions, instead of post BIRTH . 
Post birth abortion is another term for killing babies of botched abortions.These are the dark closet babies Obama wants to see left to die.


----------



## whitehall

We need to get a handle on this issue. Was the woman an illegal alien or not? It is a dangerous slope when we assume all hispanics are illegal just because they commit a heinous crime.


----------



## barry1960

AmericanFirst said:


> More proof illegal immigration is bad for the country. exactly who is paying her medical bills and for the trial? US!!!



Not really an immigration issue.


----------



## uscitizen

koshergrl said:


> uscitizen said:
> 
> 
> 
> I don't support post term abortions.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But you do support post birth abortions, I take it.
> 
> You really think you're that adept with the language, that people won't notice the difference?
Click to expand...


They are most always the tame thing aren't they?

And yes I do not support wars of choice.
Ie no offense unless you are actually being attacked by another nation.


----------



## uscitizen

whitehall said:


> We need to get a handle on this issue. Was the woman an illegal alien or not? It is a dangerous slope when we assume all hispanics are illegal just because they commit a heinous crime.


Native born americans also commit heinious crimes.


----------



## freedombecki

koshergrl said:


> freedombecki said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> koshergrl said:
> 
> 
> 
> But you do support post birth abortions, I take it.
> 
> You really think you're that adept with the language, that people won't notice the difference?
> 
> 
> 
> He just said he didn't, koshergrl.
> And as for being adept with the language, you need to know that there is no such thing as "post birth abortion."
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No, he said he didn't support post TERM abortions, instead of post BIRTH .
> Post birth abortion is another term for killing babies of botched abortions.These are the dark closet babies Obama wants to see left to die.
Click to expand...

When you figure out the error of what YOU SAID, which I pointed out, get back to me, Cinderella.


----------



## barry1960

Angelhair said:


> _AND.......the woman is an ILLEGAL alien.  AND who I am sure had this poor child to 'anchor' herself to this country not realizing that the baby might NOT be born 'perfect'._



How are you able to read into the motives as to why the woman had the child? Could your conclusion simply be based upon your own prejudices?


----------



## tinydancer

hortysir said:


> koshergrl said:
> 
> 
> 
> I just find it perplexing that the same people who fight for a woman's right to destroy her baby in her body have a problem with her destroying the baby once it exits her body. Particularly given the fact that often, the aborted babies are alive upon exiting mom's body at birth.
> 
> There's no diff. Live with your choice, love it, embrace it. Moms have the right to kill their offspring. I'm sure it will reduce the welfare rolls and eliminate crime!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As harsh as that post may sound, she has a point.
> 
> We can't agree on when life begins. How do we decide when it should end.
Click to expand...


Absolutely bang on the money. There is a belief that a baby does not become a "human being" until it develops according to certain standards.


I find this terrifying. Why? Because Obama's Science Czar actually wrote his definition of life in a book embracing this.

Think of the potential for a defense attorney using this argument. YOWZAH!

*7/28/2009
Obamas Science Czar Defines Life
Filed under: Obama  DRJ @ 7:03 pm 
[Guest post by DRJ]

John P. Holdren, director of the White House Office of Science and Technology Policy and Obamas top science adviser, co-authored a 1973 book that said a newborn child will ultimately develop into a human being if he or she is properly fed and socialized: 

The fetus, given the opportunity to develop properly before birth, and given the essential early socializing experiences and sufficient nourishing food during the crucial early years after birth, will ultimately develop into a human being, John P. Holdren, director of the White House Office of Science and Technology Policy, wrote in Human Ecology: Problems and Solutions.
***
The specific passage expressing the authors view that a baby will ultimately develop into a human being is on page 235 in chapter 8 of the book, which is titled Population Limitation. 

At the time the book was written, the Supreme Court had not yet issued its Roe v. Wade decision, and the passage in question was part of a subsection of the Population Limitation chapter that argued for legalized abortion.

Holdrens co-authors were Stanford Professors Paul and Anne Ehrlich. Paul Ehrlichs 1968 book The Population Bomb is credited with launching the zero population movement. Zombietime has more on the Ehrlichs and Holdrens views.

Would the authors object to a mother killing her two month old baby if they really believe life begins after a child is socialized? Im sure they would for PC reasons, but I dont see how they could and be philosophically consistent.

 DRJ
*

For some reason I can't copy the link, but if you google Science Czar and baby not a human being there are all sorts of links.

This one I lifted from Patterico's? Pontifications.


----------



## tinydancer

There are several things I find disturbing about this situation. Apart from the obvious that the woman purposely threw her baby off the building.

One is if she was hospitalized for post partum depression and the baby was potentially at risk, wouldn't there have been a social worker monitoring this woman? I'm not laying blame here. I'm just asking a question because I'm curious about these procedures in California.

Then there's the part in the article where a California Judge actually set bail. Hell's bells what was he thinking.

Thank goodness immigration officials overturned the  Judges order allowing bail. Does anyone else think that strange that a Judge would allow an illegal immigrant bail?


----------



## Harry Dresden

what i found strange was that this happened at CHOC Children's Hospital with St Josephs Hospital with a great trauma Center right behind it......and they took the kid to UCI Med Center a few miles away....


----------



## uscitizen

Harry Dresden said:


> what i found strange was that this happened at CHOC Children's Hospital with St Josephs Hospital with a great trauma Center right behind it......and they took the kid to UCI Med Center a few miles away....



No insurance.  This is common in urban areas.


----------



## Harry Dresden

uscitizen said:


> Harry Dresden said:
> 
> 
> 
> what i found strange was that this happened at CHOC Children's Hospital with St Josephs Hospital with a great trauma Center right behind it......and they took the kid to UCI Med Center a few miles away....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No insurance.  This is common in urban areas.
Click to expand...


State law says in an Emergency the Hospital has to render treatment....St. Josephs ER is filled with the no Ins. crowd as well as UCI's is.....


----------



## strollingbones

hortysir said:


> koshergrl said:
> 
> 
> 
> I just find it perplexing that the same people who fight for a woman's right to destroy her baby in her body have a problem with her destroying the baby once it exits her body. Particularly given the fact that often, the aborted babies are alive upon exiting mom's body at birth.
> 
> There's no diff. Live with your choice, love it, embrace it. Moms have the right to kill their offspring. I'm sure it will reduce the welfare rolls and eliminate crime!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As harsh as that post may sound, she has a point.
> 
> We can't agree on when life begins. How do we decide when it should end.
Click to expand...




o fuck you and the horse you road in on....if you cant figure out the difference in aborting a fetus and tossing a 7 month old child off a parking deck....

color you fucking stupid, you


----------



## chesswarsnow

Sorry bout that,


1. Ofcourse I have the answers to this problem.
2. The answer to the question is who is at fault, and why did this women think she could get away with killing her child.
3. First of all, this is a very tricky subject, and what I am about to say, is hard to hear, so I warn you first.
4. We live in a *throw away* society, because the *liberal muckity mucks* made laws that allow the women, to have a baby ripped from their wombs, and cast into the dumpsters all across America.
5. This women was unhappy with her child being *not perfect*, and wanted another whack at it, but without the baggage of taking care of this first child.
6. In her mind, she thought she could just *wipe the slate clean*, kill the child, and start over, because all across America, each day, day in day out, women have their children aborted, perhaps she is very under educated as well, and didn't see it as evil what she did.
7. Perhaps you're a *liberal muckity muck* who is educated, and yet you can't see the evil of killing babies, too?
8. So its not really about being stupid, its about not carrying or refusing to care for innocent children, or babies in the womb.
9. Until a baby is loved by the *liberal muckity mucks* who have had *liberal muckity mucks*, judges make laws that kill the babies, this kind of evil will prosper.
10. Till we address this problem, evil wins.



Regards,
SirJamesofTexas


----------



## Angelhair

koshergrl said:


> I assume there are people who would have been fine with this if she had aborted at 8 months based on knowledge of the child's defects.
> 
> Somehow this is different.
> 
> You foster an environment where imperfect children are disposable, and mothers have the right to kill them in utero...then boo hoo when mothers carry that attitude after the baby is born.
> 
> I think it's pretty obvious the woman is ignorant of the child's condition, probably not well versed in English, suffering from depression, and undoubtedly felt she was acting in the best interests of the baby.
> 
> All perfectly acceptable reasons to kill babies in this country at this time. Post birth abortion. Get over it.



_Spoken like a true NAZI........_


----------



## Angelhair

hortysir said:


> koshergrl said:
> 
> 
> 
> I just find it perplexing that the same people who fight for a woman's right to destroy her baby in her body have a problem with her destroying the baby once it exits her body. Particularly given the fact that often, the aborted babies are alive upon exiting mom's body at birth.
> 
> There's no diff. Live with your choice, love it, embrace it. Moms have the right to kill their offspring. I'm sure it will reduce the welfare rolls and eliminate crime!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As harsh as that post may sound, she has a point.
> 
> We can't agree on when life begins. How do we decide when it should end.
Click to expand...


_Being that most do not consider a fetus a baby, I guess you might say it's okay to murder their baby AFTER they are born......brilliant._


----------



## koshergrl

Angelhair said:


> koshergrl said:
> 
> 
> 
> I assume there are people who would have been fine with this if she had aborted at 8 months based on knowledge of the child's defects.
> 
> Somehow this is different.
> 
> You foster an environment where imperfect children are disposable, and mothers have the right to kill them in utero...then boo hoo when mothers carry that attitude after the baby is born.
> 
> I think it's pretty obvious the woman is ignorant of the child's condition, probably not well versed in English, suffering from depression, and undoubtedly felt she was acting in the best interests of the baby.
> 
> All perfectly acceptable reasons to kill babies in this country at this time. Post birth abortion. Get over it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _Spoken like a true NAZI........_
Click to expand...

 
You obviously don't have a good grasp of what constitutes nazism.

Nazis were all for abortion and performed them regularly on women under their control.


----------



## Defiant1

freedombecki said:


> koshergrl said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> uscitizen said:
> 
> 
> 
> I don't support post term abortions.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But you do support post birth abortions, I take it.
> 
> You really think you're that adept with the language, that people won't notice the difference?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> He just said he didn't, koshergrl.
> And as for being adept with the language, you need to know that there is no such thing as "post birth abortion."
Click to expand...


Tell Obama that.


----------



## WillowTree

strollingbones said:


> hortysir said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> koshergrl said:
> 
> 
> 
> I just find it perplexing that the same people who fight for a woman's right to destroy her baby in her body have a problem with her destroying the baby once it exits her body. Particularly given the fact that often, the aborted babies are alive upon exiting mom's body at birth.
> 
> There's no diff. Live with your choice, love it, embrace it. Moms have the right to kill their offspring. I'm sure it will reduce the welfare rolls and eliminate crime!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As harsh as that post may sound, she has a point.
> 
> We can't agree on when life begins. How do we decide when it should end.
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> o fuck you and the horse you road in on....if you cant figure out the difference in aborting a fetus and tossing a 7 month old child off a parking deck....
> 
> color you fucking stupid, you
Click to expand...


wake up cranky dis mawning did ya hon?


----------



## Truthmatters

why play games with the mentally ill people?


----------



## signelect

AmericanFirst said:


> More proof illegal immigration is bad for the country. exactly who is paying her medical bills and for the trial? US!!!





Should i remind you of ALL AMERICAN white woman YATES.... she drowned all of her kids.


----------



## signelect

koshergrl said:


> Angelhair said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> koshergrl said:
> 
> 
> 
> I assume there are people who would have been fine with this if she had aborted at 8 months based on knowledge of the child's defects.
> 
> Somehow this is different.
> 
> You foster an environment where imperfect children are disposable, and mothers have the right to kill them in utero...then boo hoo when mothers carry that attitude after the baby is born.
> 
> I think it's pretty obvious the woman is ignorant of the child's condition, probably not well versed in English, suffering from depression, and undoubtedly felt she was acting in the best interests of the baby.
> 
> All perfectly acceptable reasons to kill babies in this country at this time. Post birth abortion. Get over it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _Spoken like a true NAZI........_
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You obviously don't have a good grasp of what constitutes nazism.
> 
> Nazis were all for abortion and performed them regularly on women under their control.
Click to expand...




What?! Are you crazy! You never decide when to take the life of anybody especially of a newborn child!


----------



## hortysir

strollingbones said:


> hortysir said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> koshergrl said:
> 
> 
> 
> I just find it perplexing that the same people who fight for a woman's right to destroy her baby in her body have a problem with her destroying the baby once it exits her body. Particularly given the fact that often, the aborted babies are alive upon exiting mom's body at birth.
> 
> There's no diff. Live with your choice, love it, embrace it. Moms have the right to kill their offspring. I'm sure it will reduce the welfare rolls and eliminate crime!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As harsh as that post may sound, she has a point.
> 
> We can't agree on when life begins. How do we decide when it should end.
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> o fuck you and the horse you road in on....if you cant figure out the difference in aborting a fetus and tossing a 7 month old child off a parking deck....
> 
> color you fucking stupid, you
Click to expand...



Why fuck me if you're just going to abort it?


----------



## Truthmatters

why people play political games with mental illness is beyond me


----------



## Angelhair

koshergrl said:


> Angelhair said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> koshergrl said:
> 
> 
> 
> I assume there are people who would have been fine with this if she had aborted at 8 months based on knowledge of the child's defects.
> 
> Somehow this is different.
> 
> You foster an environment where imperfect children are disposable, and mothers have the right to kill them in utero...then boo hoo when mothers carry that attitude after the baby is born.
> 
> I think it's pretty obvious the woman is ignorant of the child's condition, probably not well versed in English, suffering from depression, and undoubtedly felt she was acting in the best interests of the baby.
> 
> All perfectly acceptable reasons to kill babies in this country at this time. Post birth abortion. Get over it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _Spoken like a true NAZI........_
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You obviously don't have a good grasp of what constitutes nazism.
> 
> Nazis were all for abortion and performed them regularly on women under their control.
Click to expand...

_I guess YOU don't either.  They were also for killing the 'imperfect' humans......_


----------



## koshergrl

Harry Dresden said:


> uscitizen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Harry Dresden said:
> 
> 
> 
> what i found strange was that this happened at CHOC Children's Hospital with St Josephs Hospital with a great trauma Center right behind it......and they took the kid to UCI Med Center a few miles away....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No insurance. This is common in urban areas.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> State law says in an Emergency the Hospital has to render treatment....St. Josephs ER is filled with the no Ins. crowd as well as UCI's is.....
Click to expand...

 
Please tell that to Michele Obama. She made her name during Obama's first presidential campaign by taking a hefty salary from a hospital in order to streamline ER operations. She streamlined them by sending patients to other hospitals, then took a lengthy leave of absence before finally resigning. At least, I think she resigned. Heck, maybe she's still getting paid.

What a peach! Always thinking of the little guy, and tightening that belt!


----------



## koshergrl

Angelhair said:


> koshergrl said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Angelhair said:
> 
> 
> 
> _Spoken like a true NAZI........_
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You obviously don't have a good grasp of what constitutes nazism.
> 
> Nazis were all for abortion and performed them regularly on women under their control.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> _I guess YOU don't either. They were also for killing the 'imperfect' humans......_
Click to expand...

 
uh, I know? 

where on earth did you get the impression I was pro abortion and killing imperfect humans? Wherever you got it, you couldn't be more wrong. I'm anti-abortion.


----------



## geauxtohell

Harry Dresden said:


> uscitizen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Harry Dresden said:
> 
> 
> 
> what i found strange was that this happened at CHOC Children's Hospital with St Josephs Hospital with a great trauma Center right behind it......and they took the kid to UCI Med Center a few miles away....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No insurance.  This is common in urban areas.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> State law says in an Emergency the Hospital has to render treatment....St. Josephs ER is filled with the no Ins. crowd as well as UCI's is.....
Click to expand...


And if state law doesn't say it, Federal Law does (which would take supremacy over any state law to the contrary).

EMTALA.  

Every patient that presents to an ER get's seen.  For example, an ER can't let the police drop a drunk off for simple lab testing to expediate the legal process.  The second they come through the door, they get a full "Altered Mental Status" survey.


----------



## geauxtohell

koshergrl said:


> Harry Dresden said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> uscitizen said:
> 
> 
> 
> No insurance. This is common in urban areas.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> State law says in an Emergency the Hospital has to render treatment....St. Josephs ER is filled with the no Ins. crowd as well as UCI's is.....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Please tell that to Michele Obama. She made her name during Obama's first presidential campaign by taking a hefty salary from a hospital in order to streamline ER operations. She streamlined them by sending patients to other hospitals, then took a lengthy leave of absence before finally resigning. At least, I think she resigned. Heck, maybe she's still getting paid.
> 
> What a peach! Always thinking of the little guy, and tightening that belt!
Click to expand...


That doesn't even begin to approximate what happened.  What the group Obama was tied to was attempting to do was hook patient's up with the proper primary care so they wouldn't present to the ER for trivial primary care complaints and swamp the resources of Emergency Medicine.  

In short, they tried to come up with a way to address a massive problem in America's Emergency Medicine community.  

It's against federal law for any Emergency Room to "dump" a patient.  Refer to EMTALA and educate yourself lest you continue to sound stupid.  

Emergency Medical Treatment and Active Labor Act - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Obama's work on this was not unethical or illegal in the least.  That's why this bullshit story never took off despite the right wing pundatry's best attempts to make it happen over three years ago.


----------



## geauxtohell

Still trying to figure out what this has to do with abortion or illegal immigration.


----------



## theliq

You mean HER best interest,I think.  THELIQ


koshergrl said:


> I assume there are people who would have been fine with this if she had aborted at 8 months based on knowledge of the child's defects.
> 
> Somehow this is different.
> 
> You foster an environment where imperfect children are disposable, and mothers have the right to kill them in utero...then boo hoo when mothers carry that attitude after the baby is born.
> 
> I think it's pretty obvious the woman is ignorant of the child's condition, probably not well versed in English, suffering from depression, and undoubtedly felt she was acting in the best interests of the baby.
> 
> All perfectly acceptable reasons to kill babies in this country at this time. Post birth abortion. Get over it.


----------



## koshergrl

geauxtohell said:


> koshergrl said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Harry Dresden said:
> 
> 
> 
> State law says in an Emergency the Hospital has to render treatment....St. Josephs ER is filled with the no Ins. crowd as well as UCI's is.....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Please tell that to Michele Obama. She made her name during Obama's first presidential campaign by taking a hefty salary from a hospital in order to streamline ER operations. She streamlined them by sending patients to other hospitals, then took a lengthy leave of absence before finally resigning. At least, I think she resigned. Heck, maybe she's still getting paid.
> 
> What a peach! Always thinking of the little guy, and tightening that belt!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> That doesn't even begin to approximate what happened. What the group Obama was tied to was attempting to do was hook patient's up with the proper primary care so they wouldn't present to the ER for trivial primary care complaints and swamp the resources of Emergency Medicine.
> 
> In short, they tried to come up with a way to address a massive problem in America's Emergency Medicine community.
> 
> It's against federal law for any Emergency Room to "dump" a patient. Refer to EMTALA and educate yourself lest you continue to sound stupid.
> 
> Emergency Medical Treatment and Active Labor Act - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> Obama's work on this was not unethical or illegal in the least. That's why this bullshit story never took off despite the right wing pundatry's best attempts to make it happen over three years ago.
Click to expand...

 
I never said what she did was illegal. 

Unethical, you bet. 

They were taking people who came to the ER for treatment, and telling them, "this isn't an emergency...go to this other hospital". 
Patient dumping.


----------



## koshergrl

theliq said:


> You mean HER best interest,I think. THELIQ
> 
> 
> koshergrl said:
> 
> 
> 
> I assume there are people who would have been fine with this if she had aborted at 8 months based on knowledge of the child's defects.
> 
> Somehow this is different.
> 
> You foster an environment where imperfect children are disposable, and mothers have the right to kill them in utero...then boo hoo when mothers carry that attitude after the baby is born.
> 
> I think it's pretty obvious the woman is ignorant of the child's condition, probably not well versed in English, suffering from depression, and undoubtedly felt she was acting in the best interests of the baby.
> 
> All perfectly acceptable reasons to kill babies in this country at this time. Post birth abortion. Get over it.
Click to expand...

 
No, I mean "you". I left off "if" but it's just a style thing.

IF you foster an environment...so on and so forth.


----------



## geauxtohell

koshergrl said:


> geauxtohell said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> koshergrl said:
> 
> 
> 
> Please tell that to Michele Obama. She made her name during Obama's first presidential campaign by taking a hefty salary from a hospital in order to streamline ER operations. She streamlined them by sending patients to other hospitals, then took a lengthy leave of absence before finally resigning. At least, I think she resigned. Heck, maybe she's still getting paid.
> 
> What a peach! Always thinking of the little guy, and tightening that belt!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That doesn't even begin to approximate what happened. What the group Obama was tied to was attempting to do was hook patient's up with the proper primary care so they wouldn't present to the ER for trivial primary care complaints and swamp the resources of Emergency Medicine.
> 
> In short, they tried to come up with a way to address a massive problem in America's Emergency Medicine community.
> 
> It's against federal law for any Emergency Room to "dump" a patient. Refer to EMTALA and educate yourself lest you continue to sound stupid.
> 
> Emergency Medical Treatment and Active Labor Act - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> Obama's work on this was not unethical or illegal in the least. That's why this bullshit story never took off despite the right wing pundatry's best attempts to make it happen over three years ago.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I never said what she did was illegal.
> 
> Unethical, you bet.
> 
> They were taking people who came to the ER for treatment, and telling them, "this isn't an emergency...go to this other hospital".
> Patient dumping.
Click to expand...


"Dumping" patients from the ER is illegal nitwit.  That's why I provided the federal law.  

The example you provided is a classic EMTALA violation.  

And, needless to say, the University of Chicago (one of the nation's best graduate medical education programs) isn't going to institute a policy that violates federal law.

It's a shame you are content to simply regurgitate three year old talking points from the pundits.


----------



## koshergrl

It's not a talking point. It's what she did. So she wasn't convicted, so what. Clinton wasn't either. Doesn't mean that isn't what she did. Lots of people are never convicted.


----------



## geauxtohell

koshergrl said:


> It's not a talking point. It's what she did. So she wasn't convicted, so what. Clinton wasn't either. Doesn't mean that isn't what she did. Lots of people are never convicted.



No, it's not what she, or the group did.  They attempted to hook poor patient's who were using the ER for primary care into the proper outpatient primary care venues.  

At no time did they recommend turning people away from the ER.  

This basic ignorance (at best) or blatent distortion for political gain on healthcare policy is the reason why nothing ever get's done in this country and that our system will continue to be a mess until it's completely broken.


----------



## koshergrl

Yeah, they hooked them up alright...

" The _Chicago Tribune_ [FONT=times new roman,times]reports[/FONT][FONT=times new roman,times] that Dr. Larry Weiss, president of the American Academy of Emergency Medicine is unhappy about UCMC's failure to consult its own ER physicians before initiating the program: "Not including emergency-room physicians ... would be analogous to changing the way surgery is performed in an operating room without involving any surgeons." Dr. Whitaker assures us, however, that such critics are merely "opposed to change."[/FONT]

[FONT=times new roman,times]Presumably, he would be similarly dismissive of Angela Adams, who brought her son to the medical center's ER after his lip had been partially torn off by a pit bull. As the _Tribune_ [/FONT][FONT=times new roman,times]puts it[/FONT][FONT=times new roman,times], "Instead of rushing Dontae into surgery ... the hospital's staff began pressing her about insurance." Unfortunately for Dontae, he was covered by Medicaid. So, all he got from the UCMC emergency department was a shot, some antibiotics, and instructions to "follow up with Cook County." Angela had to take her son across town to John Stroger Hospital, where he was immediately admitted for reconstructive surgery. Like doctors Jouriles and Weiss, Angela is having trouble seeing the community benefit of the Urban Health Initiative."[/FONT]

Archived-Articles: Michelle Obama's Patient-Dumping Scheme

That Michele is a champ!


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## theliq

Thanks for that koshergirl..theliq


koshergrl said:


> theliq said:
> 
> 
> 
> You mean HER best interest,I think. THELIQ
> 
> 
> koshergrl said:
> 
> 
> 
> I assume there are people who would have been fine with this if she had aborted at 8 months based on knowledge of the child's defects.
> 
> Somehow this is different.
> 
> You foster an environment where imperfect children are disposable, and mothers have the right to kill them in utero...then boo hoo when mothers carry that attitude after the baby is born.
> 
> I think it's pretty obvious the woman is ignorant of the child's condition, probably not well versed in English, suffering from depression, and undoubtedly felt she was acting in the best interests of the baby.
> 
> All perfectly acceptable reasons to kill babies in this country at this time. Post birth abortion. Get over it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No, I mean "you". I left off "if" but it's just a style thing.
> 
> IF you foster an environment...so on and so forth.
Click to expand...


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## geauxtohell

koshergrl said:


> Yeah, they hooked them up alright...
> 
> " The _Chicago Tribune_ [FONT=times new roman,times]reports[/FONT][FONT=times new roman,times] that Dr. Larry Weiss, president of the American Academy of Emergency Medicine is unhappy about UCMC's failure to consult its own ER physicians before initiating the program: "Not including emergency-room physicians ... would be analogous to changing the way surgery is performed in an operating room without involving any surgeons." Dr. Whitaker assures us, however, that such critics are merely "opposed to change."[/FONT]
> 
> [FONT=times new roman,times]Presumably, he would be similarly dismissive of Angela Adams, who brought her son to the medical center's ER after his lip had been partially torn off by a pit bull. As the _Tribune_ [/FONT][FONT=times new roman,times]puts it[/FONT][FONT=times new roman,times], "Instead of rushing Dontae into surgery ... the hospital's staff began pressing her about insurance." Unfortunately for Dontae, he was covered by Medicaid. So, all he got from the UCMC emergency department was a shot, some antibiotics, and instructions to "follow up with Cook County." Angela had to take her son across town to John Stroger Hospital, where he was immediately admitted for reconstructive surgery. Like doctors Jouriles and Weiss, Angela is having trouble seeing the community benefit of the Urban Health Initiative."[/FONT]
> 
> Archived-Articles: Michelle Obama's Patient-Dumping Scheme
> 
> That Michele is a champ!



Other than the link to the obvioulsy biased blog (which even begrudgingly admits that they didn't violate EMTALA), the other two Tribune links don't work.


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## koshergrl

Because they're ancient, no doubt.

As I said, it will come out eventually. Just give it time.


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## geauxtohell

koshergrl said:


> Because they're ancient, no doubt.
> 
> As I said, it will come out eventually. Just give it time.



Oh, so you are just too lazy to check you own links?

This controversy occurred in the Spring of 2009.  As a result, the UCMC changed it's policy in March of 2009.  

Hannity and all the other right wing pundits all took a crack at this in the Summer of '09. How much more time do you need?


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## Wolfmoon

koshergrl said:


> I just find it perplexing that the same people who fight for a woman's right to destroy her baby in her body have a problem with her destroying the baby once it exits her body. Particularly given the fact that often, the aborted babies are alive upon exiting mom's body at birth.
> 
> There's no diff. Live with your choice, love it, embrace it. *Moms have the right to kill their offspring.* I'm sure it will reduce the welfare rolls and eliminate crime!


 
?  Not in America baby!

$2.5 Billion dollars a year is spent on Medicaid for illegal aliens.
http://www.cis.org/articles/2004/fiscalexec.html

.


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## Wolfmoon

News Flash...  The Hispanic women are worse than the men and alway have been!!!


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## koshergrl

geauxtohell said:


> koshergrl said:
> 
> 
> 
> Because they're ancient, no doubt.
> 
> As I said, it will come out eventually. Just give it time.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oh, so you are just too lazy to check you own links?
> 
> This controversy occurred in the Spring of 2009. As a result, the UCMC changed it's policy in March of 2009.
> 
> Hannity and all the other right wing pundits all took a crack at this in the Summer of '09. How much more time do you need?
Click to expand...

 
As much time as it takes. The media blacked it out. But it will come back, never fear. The media isn't that crazy for the Obamas this time around.


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## Wolfmoon

Infant Safe Haven Laws

"Baby Moses laws" or infant safe haven laws have been enacted as an incentive for mothers in crisis to safely relinquish their babies to designated locations where the babies are protected and provided with medical care until a permanent home is found. Safe haven laws generally allow the parent, or an agent of the parent, to remain anonymous and to be shielded from prosecution for abandonment or neglect in exchange for surrendering the baby to a safe haven.
To date, approximately 49 States and Puerto Rico have enacted safe haven legislation."


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## freedombecki

geauxtohell said:


> koshergrl said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Harry Dresden said:
> 
> 
> 
> State law says in an Emergency the Hospital has to render treatment....St. Josephs ER is filled with the no Ins. crowd as well as UCI's is.....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Please tell that to Michele Obama. She made her name during Obama's first presidential campaign by taking a hefty salary from a hospital in order to streamline ER operations. She streamlined them by sending patients to other hospitals, then took a lengthy leave of absence before finally resigning. At least, I think she resigned. Heck, maybe she's still getting paid.
> 
> What a peach! Always thinking of the little guy, and tightening that belt!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> That doesn't even begin to approximate what happened.  What the group Obama was tied to was attempting to do was hook patient's up with the proper primary care so they wouldn't present to the ER for trivial primary care complaints and swamp the resources of Emergency Medicine.
> 
> In short, they tried to come up with a way to address a massive problem in America's Emergency Medicine community.
> 
> It's against federal law for any Emergency Room to "dump" a patient.  Refer to EMTALA and educate yourself lest you continue to sound stupid.
> 
> Emergency Medical Treatment and Active Labor Act - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> Obama's work on this was not unethical or illegal in the least.  That's why this bullshit story never took off despite the right wing pundatry's best attempts to make it happen over three years ago.
Click to expand...

Thanks, Geaux for the link. 

From the link:
*Mandated care*

EMTALA was passed to combat the practice of "patient dumping", i.e.,  refusal to treat people because of inability to pay or insufficient  insurance, or transferring or discharging emergency patients on the  basis of high anticipated diagnosis and treatment costs. The law applies  when an individual with a medical emergency "comes to the emergency  department," regardless of whether the condition is visible to others,  or is simply stated by the patient with no external evidence.
The U.S. government defines an emergency department as "a specially  equipped and staffed area of the hospital used a significant portion of  the time for initial evaluation and treatment of outpatients for  emergency medical conditions." This means, for example, that outpatient  clinics not equipped to handle medical emergencies are not obligated  under EMTALA and can simply refer patients to a nearby emergency  department for care.[8]
An emergency medical condition is defined as "a condition manifesting  itself by acute symptoms of sufficient severity (including severe pain)  such that the absence of immediate medical attention could reasonably  be expected to result in placing the individual's health [or the health  of an unborn child] in serious jeopardy, serious impairment to bodily  functions, or serious dysfunction of bodily organs." For example, a  pregnant woman with an emergency condition must be treated until  delivery is complete, unless a transfer under the statute is  appropriate.[8]
Though patients treated under EMTALA may or may not be able to pay or  have insurance or other programs pay for the associated costs, they are  legally responsible for any costs incurred as a result of their care  under civil law. Patients whose advance intention it is to receive  medical care and fail to pay cannot be held criminally liable unless  they intentionally and knowingly provide false identifying information  to dodge billing.
The provisions under EMTALA apply primarily in relation to a  patient's ability or likelihood to pay. They have no guidelines  regarding patients with known or suspected communicable diseases, though  other existing laws protect such patients from being denied treatment,  while at the same time are designed to prevent the spread of the  diseases.
*Hospital obligations*

Hospitals have three obligations under EMTALA:


Individuals requesting emergency care, or those for whom a representative has made a request if the patient is unable, must receive a medical screening examination  to determine whether an emergency medical condition (EMC) exists.  Examination and treatment cannot be delayed to inquire about methods of  payment or insurance coverage, or a patient's citizenship  or legal status. The hospital may only start the process of payment  inquiry and billing once the patient has been stabilized to a degree  that the process will not interfere with or otherwise compromise patient  care.
The emergency room (or other better equipped units within the  hospital) must treat an individual with an EMC until the condition is  resolved or stabilized and the patient is able to provide self-care  following discharge, or if unable, can receive needed continual care.  Inpatient care provided must be at an equal level for all patients,  regardless of ability to pay. Hospitals may not discharge a patient  prior to stabilization if the patient's insurance is canceled or  otherwise discontinues payment during course of stay.
If the hospital does not have the capability to treat the condition,  the hospital must make an "appropriate" transfer of the patient to  another hospital with such capability. This includes a long-term care or  rehabilitation facilities for patients unable to provide self-care.  Hospitals with specialized capabilities must accept such transfers and  may not discharge a patient until the condition is resolved and the  patient is able to provide self-care or is transferred to another  facility.
Since 1986, that makes this law 25 years old this year.


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## becca17215

I think it had a lot more to do with the treat at CHOC and the therapy staff. The lack of support that parents of "special needs" children get. The run around that CCS, Medi-Cal and Regional Center all give when applying for and service and or equipment. Then when there is light at the end of the tunnel to get the State to pay for items for your "special needs" child the State sends over a check-off list to the CHOC therapist Jenni Chui PT and she checks no on everything. Even though her evaluation of the special needs child would support having items paid for by the State. The problem is and I fought with Jenny Chui Monday 22, 2011 in the therapy room infront of her. Yelling at Jenni Chui PT's take on "why should the tax payers fit the bill for these people?". Yes there are many people in CHOC that believe they are helping America by denying equipment for Special Needs children that have parents that aren't citizens. Illegal aliens should pick more fruit, dig more ditches, look after other peoples children at 1/3 of the price Americians would. So that they can pay for all the things their child needs. 
This woman was overwhelmed by the system not post partem depression.


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