# stock market: good or bad?



## rickm19

So I'm debating in my own mind if the stock market is a drain on society or if it is beneficial...
We put money in for long term investments in companies.. if they go under we loose out. All it is is people playing with other people's money to try to either better the world with great inventions or make a quick buck. I personally don't see much benefit in it when most middle class people who are invested through investing companies loose their life savings or loose more than what they put in to into because the economy is in shambles or the companies they are vested in go under or just get greedy and sell out. Although I do believe in investing in the companies that will better this world and help sustain things. So why should we rely on a fluctuating market to hopefully have a nest egg for when we retire?


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## DarkFury

rickm19 said:


> So I'm debating in my own mind if the stock market is a drain on society or if it is beneficial...
> We put money in for long term investments in companies.. if they go under we loose out. All it is is people playing with other people's money to try to either better the world with great inventions or make a quick buck. I personally don't see much benefit in it when most middle class people who are invested through investing companies loose their life savings or loose more than what they put in to into because the economy is in shambles or the companies they are vested in go under or just get greedy and sell out. Although I do believe in investing in the companies that will better this world and help sustain things. So why should we rely on a fluctuating market to hopefully have a nest egg for when we retire?


*i think the market numbers are false. A true growing market needs a growing population and the birth rate does not support current or predicted future economics.*


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## Toddsterpatriot

rickm19 said:


> So I'm debating in my own mind if the stock market is a drain on society or if it is beneficial...
> We put money in for long term investments in companies.. if they go under we loose out. All it is is people playing with other people's money to try to either better the world with great inventions or make a quick buck. I personally don't see much benefit in it when most middle class people who are invested through investing companies loose their life savings or loose more than what they put in to into because the economy is in shambles or the companies they are vested in go under or just get greedy and sell out. Although I do believe in investing in the companies that will better this world and help sustain things. So why should we rely on a fluctuating market to hopefully have a nest egg for when we retire?


 
*So I'm debating in my own mind if the stock market is a drain on society or if it is beneficial...*

Look at those societies with no stock market.

* I personally don't see much benefit in it when most middle class people who are invested through investing companies loose their life savings or loose more than what they put in to into*

Wow! Bad info.

*So why should we rely on a fluctuating market to hopefully have a nest egg for when we retire?*

You shouldn't. You should give your money to politicians instead, they'll take care of it for you.


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## william the wie

The stock market is an instrument of social Darwinism and therefore very good.


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## skye

bloody hell

stock market great LOL

if you know what you are doing

hey...any inside tips?  bawahahahahhaha


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## william the wie

skye said:


> bloody hell
> 
> stock market great LOL
> 
> if you know what you are doing
> 
> hey...any inside tips?  bawahahahahhaha



Do not invest in Berkshire Hathaway. If you use its own published buying criteria it is a screaming short that can teach you that the market can stay irrational longer than you can stay solvent.


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## skye

LOL hehe  ^^^^


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## skye

I just want a nice  house by the sea....

and travel all over the world.....

once or twice a year.....


and great clothes ...shoes and  underwear all lace and beautiful..etc

so

where in the stock market shall I  look huh? (not that I look at all)

LOL...just curious LOL


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## skye

gotta make conversation...before  iran war explodes...

small talk  shit


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## Mr. H.

Today's stock market is bullshit and hardly indicative of either the health of any one individual company or the economy in general. Obama printed and dumped $58 billion per month and drove interest rates to zero. 

Where the hell else were investors to turn butt the stock market?


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## rickm19

william the wie said:


> The stock market is an instrument of social Darwinism and therefore very good.


Well I don't see how it is an instrument of social darwinism. It can make people lazy by sitting there playing with money. What happens when all those people making that money disappear? Oh yeah that is when the robots takeover right but wait robots can't invest lol? I mean obviously the stock market is a thinking man's game. So in a sense it would be. Guess I'm just not a huge fan of people taking advantage of it..


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## skye

Mr. H. said:


> Today's stock market is bullshit and hardly indicative of either the health of any one individual company or the economy in general. Obama printed and dumped $58 billion per month and drove interest rates to zero.
> 
> Where the hell else were investors to turn butt the stock market?




well ...gotta keep your eyes open...(not me LOL becauase I know shit about the market...but those who do ...  )))


look here ...look there...look everywhere...


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## rickm19

Toddsterpatriot said:


> rickm19 said:
> 
> 
> 
> So I'm debating in my own mind if the stock market is a drain on society or if it is beneficial...
> We put money in for long term investments in companies.. if they go under we loose out. All it is is people playing with other people's money to try to either better the world with great inventions or make a quick buck. I personally don't see much benefit in it when most middle class people who are invested through investing companies loose their life savings or loose more than what they put in to into because the economy is in shambles or the companies they are vested in go under or just get greedy and sell out. Although I do believe in investing in the companies that will better this world and help sustain things. So why should we rely on a fluctuating market to hopefully have a nest egg for when we retire?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *So I'm debating in my own mind if the stock market is a drain on society or if it is beneficial...*
> 
> Look at those societies with no stock market.
> 
> * I personally don't see much benefit in it when most middle class people who are invested through investing companies loose their life savings or loose more than what they put in to into*
> 
> Wow! Bad info.
> 
> *So why should we rely on a fluctuating market to hopefully have a nest egg for when we retire?*
> 
> You shouldn't. You should give your money to politicians instead, they'll take care of it for you.
Click to expand...


BAD info?.. when the stock market crashes what happens??? It takes years to recoup if it's even possible to break even. Now granted that is few and far in between but almost guaranteed to happen in our lifetime. 

Yeah they already take about half of our money... haha


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## skye

I just voted


stock market good...


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## william the wie

rickm19 said:


> Toddsterpatriot said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rickm19 said:
> 
> 
> 
> So I'm debating in my own mind if the stock market is a drain on society or if it is beneficial...
> We put money in for long term investments in companies.. if they go under we loose out. All it is is people playing with other people's money to try to either better the world with great inventions or make a quick buck. I personally don't see much benefit in it when most middle class people who are invested through investing companies loose their life savings or loose more than what they put in to into because the economy is in shambles or the companies they are vested in go under or just get greedy and sell out. Although I do believe in investing in the companies that will better this world and help sustain things. So why should we rely on a fluctuating market to hopefully have a nest egg for when we retire?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *So I'm debating in my own mind if the stock market is a drain on society or if it is beneficial...*
> 
> Look at those societies with no stock market.
> 
> * I personally don't see much benefit in it when most middle class people who are invested through investing companies loose their life savings or loose more than what they put in to into*
> 
> Wow! Bad info.
> 
> *So why should we rely on a fluctuating market to hopefully have a nest egg for when we retire?*
> 
> You shouldn't. You should give your money to politicians instead, they'll take care of it for you.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> BAD info?.. when the stock market crashes what happens??? It takes years to recoup if it's even possible to break even. Now granted that is few and far in between but almost guaranteed to happen in our lifetime.
> 
> Yeah they already take about half of our money... haha
Click to expand...


The winnowing out of get rich quick idiots transfers the money to people who are able to use it productively.


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## skye

william the wie said:


> rickm19 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Toddsterpatriot said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rickm19 said:
> 
> 
> 
> So I'm debating in my own mind if the stock market is a drain on society or if it is beneficial...
> We put money in for long term investments in companies.. if they go under we loose out. All it is is people playing with other people's money to try to either better the world with great inventions or make a quick buck. I personally don't see much benefit in it when most middle class people who are invested through investing companies loose their life savings or loose more than what they put in to into because the economy is in shambles or the companies they are vested in go under or just get greedy and sell out. Although I do believe in investing in the companies that will better this world and help sustain things. So why should we rely on a fluctuating market to hopefully have a nest egg for when we retire?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *So I'm debating in my own mind if the stock market is a drain on society or if it is beneficial...*
> 
> Look at those societies with no stock market.
> 
> * I personally don't see much benefit in it when most middle class people who are invested through investing companies loose their life savings or loose more than what they put in to into*
> 
> Wow! Bad info.
> 
> *So why should we rely on a fluctuating market to hopefully have a nest egg for when we retire?*
> 
> You shouldn't. You should give your money to politicians instead, they'll take care of it for you.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> BAD info?.. when the stock market crashes what happens??? It takes years to recoup if it's even possible to break even. Now granted that is few and far in between but almost guaranteed to happen in our lifetime.
> 
> Yeah they already take about half of our money... haha
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The winnowing out of get rich quick idiots transfers the money to people who are able to use it productively.
Click to expand...


do not fear or cry or whatever..

idiots will never gain

welfare is the most the can wish for....
oh well


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## william the wie

With all the balanced portfolio threads in this forum well disciplined idiots can in fact gain but not solely based on US equities.


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## Zander

The stock market is a great way to save for the long term. 

Short term trading is gambling. If that is your goal, go to Vegas and play crap (lowest house edge if you know how to bet!), at least there you'll get free drinks!


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## 1stRambo

skye said:


> bloody hell
> 
> stock market great LOL
> 
> if you know what you are doing
> 
> hey...any inside tips?  bawahahahahhaha



Yo, funny!

"GTP"


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## rickm19

william the wie said:


> rickm19 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Toddsterpatriot said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rickm19 said:
> 
> 
> 
> So I'm debating in my own mind if the stock market is a drain on society or if it is beneficial...
> We put money in for long term investments in companies.. if they go under we loose out. All it is is people playing with other people's money to try to either better the world with great inventions or make a quick buck. I personally don't see much benefit in it when most middle class people who are invested through investing companies loose their life savings or loose more than what they put in to into because the economy is in shambles or the companies they are vested in go under or just get greedy and sell out. Although I do believe in investing in the companies that will better this world and help sustain things. So why should we rely on a fluctuating market to hopefully have a nest egg for when we retire?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *So I'm debating in my own mind if the stock market is a drain on society or if it is beneficial...*
> 
> Look at those societies with no stock market.
> 
> * I personally don't see much benefit in it when most middle class people who are invested through investing companies loose their life savings or loose more than what they put in to into*
> 
> Wow! Bad info.
> 
> *So why should we rely on a fluctuating market to hopefully have a nest egg for when we retire?*
> 
> You shouldn't. You should give your money to politicians instead, they'll take care of it for you.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> BAD info?.. when the stock market crashes what happens??? It takes years to recoup if it's even possible to break even. Now granted that is few and far in between but almost guaranteed to happen in our lifetime.
> 
> Yeah they already take about half of our money... haha
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The winnowing out of get rich quick idiots transfers the money to people who are able to use it productively.
Click to expand...




william the wie said:


> rickm19 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Toddsterpatriot said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rickm19 said:
> 
> 
> 
> So I'm debating in my own mind if the stock market is a drain on society or if it is beneficial...
> We put money in for long term investments in companies.. if they go under we loose out. All it is is people playing with other people's money to try to either better the world with great inventions or make a quick buck. I personally don't see much benefit in it when most middle class people who are invested through investing companies loose their life savings or loose more than what they put in to into because the economy is in shambles or the companies they are vested in go under or just get greedy and sell out. Although I do believe in investing in the companies that will better this world and help sustain things. So why should we rely on a fluctuating market to hopefully have a nest egg for when we retire?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *So I'm debating in my own mind if the stock market is a drain on society or if it is beneficial...*
> 
> Look at those societies with no stock market.
> 
> * I personally don't see much benefit in it when most middle class people who are invested through investing companies loose their life savings or loose more than what they put in to into*
> 
> Wow! Bad info.
> 
> *So why should we rely on a fluctuating market to hopefully have a nest egg for when we retire?*
> 
> You shouldn't. You should give your money to politicians instead, they'll take care of it for you.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> BAD info?.. when the stock market crashes what happens??? It takes years to recoup if it's even possible to break even. Now granted that is few and far in between but almost guaranteed to happen in our lifetime.
> 
> Yeah they already take about half of our money... haha
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The winnowing out of get rich quick idiots transfers the money to people who are able to use it productively.
Click to expand...


So in other words the scam artists put out false information to steal from the people just trying to get ahead? Lol
I get people think the get rich quick people are bad when really it is just desperation to have their fair share because the rich have all the fancy toys and tend to like to rub those toys in... that is really a a vicious cycle. I understand both sides though. But as a great man once said our rewards in life will be in equal proportion to our contributions. That don't just apply to finances.


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## 1stRambo

Yo, its good if you have big bucks like Warren Buffett, he makes a lot of money with his investments!

"GTP"


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## Toddsterpatriot

rickm19 said:


> Toddsterpatriot said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rickm19 said:
> 
> 
> 
> So I'm debating in my own mind if the stock market is a drain on society or if it is beneficial...
> We put money in for long term investments in companies.. if they go under we loose out. All it is is people playing with other people's money to try to either better the world with great inventions or make a quick buck. I personally don't see much benefit in it when most middle class people who are invested through investing companies loose their life savings or loose more than what they put in to into because the economy is in shambles or the companies they are vested in go under or just get greedy and sell out. Although I do believe in investing in the companies that will better this world and help sustain things. So why should we rely on a fluctuating market to hopefully have a nest egg for when we retire?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *So I'm debating in my own mind if the stock market is a drain on society or if it is beneficial...*
> 
> Look at those societies with no stock market.
> 
> * I personally don't see much benefit in it when most middle class people who are invested through investing companies loose their life savings or loose more than what they put in to into*
> 
> Wow! Bad info.
> 
> *So why should we rely on a fluctuating market to hopefully have a nest egg for when we retire?*
> 
> You shouldn't. You should give your money to politicians instead, they'll take care of it for you.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> BAD info?.. when the stock market crashes what happens??? It takes years to recoup if it's even possible to break even. Now granted that is few and far in between but almost guaranteed to happen in our lifetime.
> 
> Yeah they already take about half of our money... haha
Click to expand...

 
*BAD info?..*

Yes.

*when the stock market crashes what happens???*

Stock prices go down. Durr.

* It takes years to recoup if it's even possible to break even.*

And?

*Now granted that is few and far in between but almost guaranteed to happen in our lifetime.*

Yup.


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## william the wie

Zander said:


> The stock market is a great way to save for the long term.
> 
> Short term trading is gambling. If that is your goal, go to Vegas and play crap (lowest house edge if you know how to bet!), at least there you'll get free drinks!


But that requires discipline, something no one wants to have to use. What is wanted is the thrill of a big pay off fast.


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## william the wie

Toddsterpatriot said:


> rickm19 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Toddsterpatriot said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rickm19 said:
> 
> 
> 
> So I'm debating in my own mind if the stock market is a drain on society or if it is beneficial...
> We put money in for long term investments in companies.. if they go under we loose out. All it is is people playing with other people's money to try to either better the world with great inventions or make a quick buck. I personally don't see much benefit in it when most middle class people who are invested through investing companies loose their life savings or loose more than what they put in to into because the economy is in shambles or the companies they are vested in go under or just get greedy and sell out. Although I do believe in investing in the companies that will better this world and help sustain things. So why should we rely on a fluctuating market to hopefully have a nest egg for when we retire?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *So I'm debating in my own mind if the stock market is a drain on society or if it is beneficial...*
> 
> Look at those societies with no stock market.
> 
> * I personally don't see much benefit in it when most middle class people who are invested through investing companies loose their life savings or loose more than what they put in to into*
> 
> Wow! Bad info.
> 
> *So why should we rely on a fluctuating market to hopefully have a nest egg for when we retire?*
> 
> You shouldn't. You should give your money to politicians instead, they'll take care of it for you.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> BAD info?.. when the stock market crashes what happens??? It takes years to recoup if it's even possible to break even. Now granted that is few and far in between but almost guaranteed to happen in our lifetime.
> 
> Yeah they already take about half of our money... haha
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> *BAD info?..*
> 
> Yes.
> 
> *when the stock market crashes what happens???*
> 
> Stock prices go down. Durr.
> 
> * It takes years to recoup if it's even possible to break even.*
> 
> And?
> 
> *Now granted that is few and far in between but almost guaranteed to happen in our lifetime.*
> 
> Yup.
Click to expand...

Actually the purpose of a balanced portfolio theory is to get you in at or near the bottom. That is the whole basis of portfolio, that and reducing your exposure when markets are overpriced.


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## Toddsterpatriot

william the wie said:


> Toddsterpatriot said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rickm19 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Toddsterpatriot said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rickm19 said:
> 
> 
> 
> So I'm debating in my own mind if the stock market is a drain on society or if it is beneficial...
> We put money in for long term investments in companies.. if they go under we loose out. All it is is people playing with other people's money to try to either better the world with great inventions or make a quick buck. I personally don't see much benefit in it when most middle class people who are invested through investing companies loose their life savings or loose more than what they put in to into because the economy is in shambles or the companies they are vested in go under or just get greedy and sell out. Although I do believe in investing in the companies that will better this world and help sustain things. So why should we rely on a fluctuating market to hopefully have a nest egg for when we retire?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *So I'm debating in my own mind if the stock market is a drain on society or if it is beneficial...*
> 
> Look at those societies with no stock market.
> 
> * I personally don't see much benefit in it when most middle class people who are invested through investing companies loose their life savings or loose more than what they put in to into*
> 
> Wow! Bad info.
> 
> *So why should we rely on a fluctuating market to hopefully have a nest egg for when we retire?*
> 
> You shouldn't. You should give your money to politicians instead, they'll take care of it for you.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> BAD info?.. when the stock market crashes what happens??? It takes years to recoup if it's even possible to break even. Now granted that is few and far in between but almost guaranteed to happen in our lifetime.
> 
> Yeah they already take about half of our money... haha
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> *BAD info?..*
> 
> Yes.
> 
> *when the stock market crashes what happens???*
> 
> Stock prices go down. Durr.
> 
> * It takes years to recoup if it's even possible to break even.*
> 
> And?
> 
> *Now granted that is few and far in between but almost guaranteed to happen in our lifetime.*
> 
> Yup.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Actually the purpose of a balanced portfolio is to get you in at or near the bottom. That is the whole basis of portfolio, that and reducing your exposure when markets are overpriced.
Click to expand...

 
*Actually the purpose of a balanced portfolio*

The purpose of re-balancing your portfolio?


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## william the wie

Toddsterpatriot said:


> william the wie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Toddsterpatriot said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rickm19 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Toddsterpatriot said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rickm19 said:
> 
> 
> 
> So I'm debating in my own mind if the stock market is a drain on society or if it is beneficial...
> We put money in for long term investments in companies.. if they go under we loose out. All it is is people playing with other people's money to try to either better the world with great inventions or make a quick buck. I personally don't see much benefit in it when most middle class people who are invested through investing companies loose their life savings or loose more than what they put in to into because the economy is in shambles or the companies they are vested in go under or just get greedy and sell out. Although I do believe in investing in the companies that will better this world and help sustain things. So why should we rely on a fluctuating market to hopefully have a nest egg for when we retire?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *So I'm debating in my own mind if the stock market is a drain on society or if it is beneficial...*
> 
> Look at those societies with no stock market.
> 
> * I personally don't see much benefit in it when most middle class people who are invested through investing companies loose their life savings or loose more than what they put in to into*
> 
> Wow! Bad info.
> 
> *So why should we rely on a fluctuating market to hopefully have a nest egg for when we retire?*
> 
> You shouldn't. You should give your money to politicians instead, they'll take care of it for you.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> BAD info?.. when the stock market crashes what happens??? It takes years to recoup if it's even possible to break even. Now granted that is few and far in between but almost guaranteed to happen in our lifetime.
> 
> Yeah they already take about half of our money... haha
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> *BAD info?..*
> 
> Yes.
> 
> *when the stock market crashes what happens???*
> 
> Stock prices go down. Durr.
> 
> * It takes years to recoup if it's even possible to break even.*
> 
> And?
> 
> *Now granted that is few and far in between but almost guaranteed to happen in our lifetime.*
> 
> Yup.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Actually the purpose of a balanced portfolio is to get you in at or near the bottom. That is the whole basis of portfolio, that and reducing your exposure when markets are overpriced.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> *Actually the purpose of a balanced portfolio*
> 
> The purpose of re-balancing your portfolio?
Click to expand...


Exactly. An equally weighted portfolio checked quarterly is hard to beat.. Selling covered options on the lowest volatility issue in its asset class is about the only reason I can think of looking at your portfolio more than once every three months. Getting paid to buy low and sell high is wonderful.


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## william the wie

For the life of me I cannot understand why anyone in their right mind would get into the capital markets without Value Line, AAII or some other summary of risk to keep out of the minefields. Hot tips are for the insane. And anyone who jumps in prior to the 200 market days required to determine the beta of an issue should take Zander's advice of heading to Vegas.


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## rickm19

Toddsterpatriot said:


> rickm19 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Toddsterpatriot said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rickm19 said:
> 
> 
> 
> So I'm debating in my own mind if the stock market is a drain on society or if it is beneficial...
> We put money in for long term investments in companies.. if they go under we loose out. All it is is people playing with other people's money to try to either better the world with great inventions or make a quick buck. I personally don't see much benefit in it when most middle class people who are invested through investing companies loose their life savings or loose more than what they put in to into because the economy is in shambles or the companies they are vested in go under or just get greedy and sell out. Although I do believe in investing in the companies that will better this world and help sustain things. So why should we rely on a fluctuating market to hopefully have a nest egg for when we retire?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *So I'm debating in my own mind if the stock market is a drain on society or if it is beneficial...*
> 
> Look at those societies with no stock market.
> 
> * I personally don't see much benefit in it when most middle class people who are invested through investing companies loose their life savings or loose more than what they put in to into*
> 
> Wow! Bad info.
> 
> *So why should we rely on a fluctuating market to hopefully have a nest egg for when we retire?*
> 
> You shouldn't. You should give your money to politicians instead, they'll take care of it for you.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> BAD info?.. when the stock market crashes what happens??? It takes years to recoup if it's even possible to break even. Now granted that is few and far in between but almost guaranteed to happen in our lifetime.
> 
> Yeah they already take about half of our money... haha
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> *BAD info?..*
> 
> Yes.
> 
> *when the stock market crashes what happens???*
> 
> Stock prices go down. Durr.
> Well duh.. That wasn't the point of the question.. But great logic lol.
> 
> * It takes years to recoup if it's even possible to break even.*
> 
> And?
> 
> *Now granted that is few and far in between but almost guaranteed to happen in our lifetime.*
> 
> Yup.
Click to expand...


So if people loose out once in their lifetime that drops them under the amount of investments that were put in, where is the benefit in that? If everyone pulls out you get a complete collapse so the people who know it is coming pull out while they advise others to stay in... I am all for investing in the right things but most of the people that are vested have no clue what they are vested in and the market is laid out so it is incomprehensible to most. Is that really fair to the people who bust their ass their entire life to support the system?


----------



## Toddsterpatriot

rickm19 said:


> Toddsterpatriot said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rickm19 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Toddsterpatriot said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rickm19 said:
> 
> 
> 
> So I'm debating in my own mind if the stock market is a drain on society or if it is beneficial...
> We put money in for long term investments in companies.. if they go under we loose out. All it is is people playing with other people's money to try to either better the world with great inventions or make a quick buck. I personally don't see much benefit in it when most middle class people who are invested through investing companies loose their life savings or loose more than what they put in to into because the economy is in shambles or the companies they are vested in go under or just get greedy and sell out. Although I do believe in investing in the companies that will better this world and help sustain things. So why should we rely on a fluctuating market to hopefully have a nest egg for when we retire?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *So I'm debating in my own mind if the stock market is a drain on society or if it is beneficial...*
> 
> Look at those societies with no stock market.
> 
> * I personally don't see much benefit in it when most middle class people who are invested through investing companies loose their life savings or loose more than what they put in to into*
> 
> Wow! Bad info.
> 
> *So why should we rely on a fluctuating market to hopefully have a nest egg for when we retire?*
> 
> You shouldn't. You should give your money to politicians instead, they'll take care of it for you.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> BAD info?.. when the stock market crashes what happens??? It takes years to recoup if it's even possible to break even. Now granted that is few and far in between but almost guaranteed to happen in our lifetime.
> 
> Yeah they already take about half of our money... haha
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> *BAD info?..*
> 
> Yes.
> 
> *when the stock market crashes what happens???*
> 
> Stock prices go down. Durr.
> Well duh.. That wasn't the point of the question.. But great logic lol.
> 
> * It takes years to recoup if it's even possible to break even.*
> 
> And?
> 
> *Now granted that is few and far in between but almost guaranteed to happen in our lifetime.*
> 
> Yup.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> So if people loose out once in their lifetime that drops them under the amount of investments that were put in, where is the benefit in that? If everyone pulls out you get a complete collapse so the people who know it is coming pull out while they advise others to stay in... I am all for investing in the right things but most of the people that are vested have no clue what they are vested in and the market is laid out so it is incomprehensible to most. Is that really fair to the people who bust their ass their entire life to support the system?
Click to expand...

 
*So if people loose out once in their lifetime that drops them under the amount of investments that were put in, where is the benefit in that?*

Who did that? When?

*If everyone pulls out you get a complete collapse*

When did everyone pull out? Where?

*so the people who know it is coming pull out*

Who knows when what collapse is coming?

*Is that really fair to the people who bust their ass their entire life to support the system?*

Of course not, but enough about the Federal government.


----------



## william the wie

rickm19 said:


> Toddsterpatriot said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rickm19 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Toddsterpatriot said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rickm19 said:
> 
> 
> 
> So I'm debating in my own mind if the stock market is a drain on society or if it is beneficial...
> We put money in for long term investments in companies.. if they go under we loose out. All it is is people playing with other people's money to try to either better the world with great inventions or make a quick buck. I personally don't see much benefit in it when most middle class people who are invested through investing companies loose their life savings or loose more than what they put in to into because the economy is in shambles or the companies they are vested in go under or just get greedy and sell out. Although I do believe in investing in the companies that will better this world and help sustain things. So why should we rely on a fluctuating market to hopefully have a nest egg for when we retire?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *So I'm debating in my own mind if the stock market is a drain on society or if it is beneficial...*
> 
> Look at those societies with no stock market.
> 
> * I personally don't see much benefit in it when most middle class people who are invested through investing companies loose their life savings or loose more than what they put in to into*
> 
> Wow! Bad info.
> 
> *So why should we rely on a fluctuating market to hopefully have a nest egg for when we retire?*
> 
> You shouldn't. You should give your money to politicians instead, they'll take care of it for you.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> BAD info?.. when the stock market crashes what happens??? It takes years to recoup if it's even possible to break even. Now granted that is few and far in between but almost guaranteed to happen in our lifetime.
> 
> Yeah they already take about half of our money... haha
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> *BAD info?..*
> 
> Yes.
> 
> *when the stock market crashes what happens???*
> 
> Stock prices go down. Durr.
> Well duh.. That wasn't the point of the question.. But great logic lol.
> 
> * It takes years to recoup if it's even possible to break even.*
> 
> And?
> 
> *Now granted that is few and far in between but almost guaranteed to happen in our lifetime.*
> 
> Yup.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> So if people loose out once in their lifetime that drops them under the amount of investments that were put in, where is the benefit in that? If everyone pulls out you get a complete collapse so the people who know it is coming pull out while they advise others to stay in... I am all for investing in the right things but most of the people that are vested have no clue what they are vested in and the market is laid out so it is incomprehensible to most. Is that really fair to the people who bust their ass their entire life to support the system?
Click to expand...

Just google balanced or lazy man portfolios. If you don't know what you are doing then either learn or go with a balanced portfolio ETF or mutual fund.


----------



## rickm19

Toddsterpatriot said:


> rickm19 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Toddsterpatriot said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rickm19 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Toddsterpatriot said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rickm19 said:
> 
> 
> 
> So I'm debating in my own mind if the stock market is a drain on society or if it is beneficial...
> We put money in for long term investments in companies.. if they go under we loose out. All it is is people playing with other people's money to try to either better the world with great inventions or make a quick buck. I personally don't see much benefit in it when most middle class people who are invested through investing companies loose their life savings or loose more than what they put in to into because the economy is in shambles or the companies they are vested in go under or just get greedy and sell out. Although I do believe in investing in the companies that will better this world and help sustain things. So why should we rely on a fluctuating market to hopefully have a nest egg for when we retire?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *So I'm debating in my own mind if the stock market is a drain on society or if it is beneficial...*
> 
> Look at those societies with no stock market.
> 
> * I personally don't see much benefit in it when most middle class people who are invested through investing companies loose their life savings or loose more than what they put in to into*
> 
> Wow! Bad info.
> 
> *So why should we rely on a fluctuating market to hopefully have a nest egg for when we retire?*
> 
> You shouldn't. You should give your money to politicians instead, they'll take care of it for you.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> BAD info?.. when the stock market crashes what happens??? It takes years to recoup if it's even possible to break even. Now granted that is few and far in between but almost guaranteed to happen in our lifetime.
> 
> Yeah they already take about half of our money... haha
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> *BAD info?..*
> 
> Yes.
> 
> *when the stock market crashes what happens???*
> 
> Stock prices go down. Durr.
> Well duh.. That wasn't the point of the question.. But great logic lol.
> 
> * It takes years to recoup if it's even possible to break even.*
> 
> And?
> 
> *Now granted that is few and far in between but almost guaranteed to happen in our lifetime.*
> 
> Yup.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> So if people loose out once in their lifetime that drops them under the amount of investments that were put in, where is the benefit in that? If everyone pulls out you get a complete collapse so the people who know it is coming pull out while they advise others to stay in... I am all for investing in the right things but most of the people that are vested have no clue what they are vested in and the market is laid out so it is incomprehensible to most. Is that really fair to the people who bust their ass their entire life to support the system?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> *So if people loose out once in their lifetime that drops them under the amount of investments that were put in, where is the benefit in that?*
> 
> Who did that? When?
> 
> *If everyone pulls out you get a complete collapse*
> 
> When did everyone pull out? Where?
> 
> *so the people who know it is coming pull out*
> 
> Who knows when what collapse is coming?
> 
> *Is that really fair to the people who bust their ass their entire life to support the system?*
> 
> Of course not, but enough about the Federal government.
Click to expand...


LOL very good. Who said anything about the federal government .


----------



## rickm19

william the wie said:


> rickm19 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Toddsterpatriot said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rickm19 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Toddsterpatriot said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rickm19 said:
> 
> 
> 
> So I'm debating in my own mind if the stock market is a drain on society or if it is beneficial...
> We put money in for long term investments in companies.. if they go under we loose out. All it is is people playing with other people's money to try to either better the world with great inventions or make a quick buck. I personally don't see much benefit in it when most middle class people who are invested through investing companies loose their life savings or loose more than what they put in to into because the economy is in shambles or the companies they are vested in go under or just get greedy and sell out. Although I do believe in investing in the companies that will better this world and help sustain things. So why should we rely on a fluctuating market to hopefully have a nest egg for when we retire?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *So I'm debating in my own mind if the stock market is a drain on society or if it is beneficial...*
> 
> Look at those societies with no stock market.
> 
> * I personally don't see much benefit in it when most middle class people who are invested through investing companies loose their life savings or loose more than what they put in to into*
> 
> Wow! Bad info.
> 
> *So why should we rely on a fluctuating market to hopefully have a nest egg for when we retire?*
> 
> You shouldn't. You should give your money to politicians instead, they'll take care of it for you.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> BAD info?.. when the stock market crashes what happens??? It takes years to recoup if it's even possible to break even. Now granted that is few and far in between but almost guaranteed to happen in our lifetime.
> 
> Yeah they already take about half of our money... haha
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> *BAD info?..*
> 
> Yes.
> 
> *when the stock market crashes what happens???*
> 
> Stock prices go down. Durr.
> Well duh.. That wasn't the point of the question.. But great logic lol.
> 
> * It takes years to recoup if it's even possible to break even.*
> 
> And?
> 
> *Now granted that is few and far in between but almost guaranteed to happen in our lifetime.*
> 
> Yup.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> So if people loose out once in their lifetime that drops them under the amount of investments that were put in, where is the benefit in that? If everyone pulls out you get a complete collapse so the people who know it is coming pull out while they advise others to stay in... I am all for investing in the right things but most of the people that are vested have no clue what they are vested in and the market is laid out so it is incomprehensible to most. Is that really fair to the people who bust their ass their entire life to support the system?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Just google balanced or lazy man portfolios. If you don't know what you are doing then either learn or go with a balanced portfolio ETF or mutual fund.
Click to expand...

Im not looking for advice... It is really quite simple at its core. Its all the legalities that make it complicated for most.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot

rickm19 said:


> Toddsterpatriot said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rickm19 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Toddsterpatriot said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rickm19 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Toddsterpatriot said:
> 
> 
> 
> *So I'm debating in my own mind if the stock market is a drain on society or if it is beneficial...*
> 
> Look at those societies with no stock market.
> 
> * I personally don't see much benefit in it when most middle class people who are invested through investing companies loose their life savings or loose more than what they put in to into*
> 
> Wow! Bad info.
> 
> *So why should we rely on a fluctuating market to hopefully have a nest egg for when we retire?*
> 
> You shouldn't. You should give your money to politicians instead, they'll take care of it for you.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> BAD info?.. when the stock market crashes what happens??? It takes years to recoup if it's even possible to break even. Now granted that is few and far in between but almost guaranteed to happen in our lifetime.
> 
> Yeah they already take about half of our money... haha
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> *BAD info?..*
> 
> Yes.
> 
> *when the stock market crashes what happens???*
> 
> Stock prices go down. Durr.
> Well duh.. That wasn't the point of the question.. But great logic lol.
> 
> * It takes years to recoup if it's even possible to break even.*
> 
> And?
> 
> *Now granted that is few and far in between but almost guaranteed to happen in our lifetime.*
> 
> Yup.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> So if people loose out once in their lifetime that drops them under the amount of investments that were put in, where is the benefit in that? If everyone pulls out you get a complete collapse so the people who know it is coming pull out while they advise others to stay in... I am all for investing in the right things but most of the people that are vested have no clue what they are vested in and the market is laid out so it is incomprehensible to most. Is that really fair to the people who bust their ass their entire life to support the system?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> *So if people loose out once in their lifetime that drops them under the amount of investments that were put in, where is the benefit in that?*
> 
> Who did that? When?
> 
> *If everyone pulls out you get a complete collapse*
> 
> When did everyone pull out? Where?
> 
> *so the people who know it is coming pull out*
> 
> Who knows when what collapse is coming?
> 
> *Is that really fair to the people who bust their ass their entire life to support the system?*
> 
> Of course not, but enough about the Federal government.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> LOL very good. Who said anything about the federal government .
Click to expand...

 
You did when you mentioned people "loosing (sic) their life savings" and again when you mentioned "bust their ass to support the system"


----------



## william the wie

I just did something I rarely do, I checked some technical indicators.

Margin is declining rapidly.  The odds of a continued bull run have gone from roughly 15 to 1 to 9 to 7 as a result.

Energy at the margin can decline to less than $5/bbl due to the reduction in rig count. Diagonal drilling in a well that goes from productive to dry has a much greater probability of hitting oil or gas and at much lower cost. Since royalty trusts are and have been really pushed this means that a lot of money will exit the market when this happens.

dividend reinvestment as a percentage of total return is declining in favor of stock buybacks to reduce the supply of shares available for sale. this is extremely bad news.

CAPE or Shiller PE is headed for Alpha Centauri at about warp nine. This is very bas news.

So, the current situation is that we have most players, not investors, ignoring both fundamentals and technical indicators. This is the financial equivalent of filling a bucket with TNT, inverting it, sitting on it and then hitting ignition.


----------



## rickm19

william the wie said:


> I just did something I rarely do, I checked some technical indicators.
> 
> Margin is declining rapidly.  The odds of a continued bull run have gone from roughly 15 to 1 to 9 to 7 as a result.
> 
> Energy at the margin can decline to less than $5/bbl due to the reduction in rig count. Diagonal drilling in a well that goes from productive to dry has a much greater probability of hitting oil or gas and at much lower cost. Since royalty trusts are and have been really pushed this means that a lot of money will exit the market when this happens.
> 
> dividend reinvestment as a percentage of total return is declining in favor of stock buybacks to reduce the supply of shares available for sale. this is extremely bad news.
> 
> CAPE or Shiller PE is headed for Alpha Centauri at about warp nine. This is very bas news.
> 
> So, the current situation is that we have most players, not investors, ignoring both fundamentals and technical indicators. This is the financial equivalent of filling a bucket with TNT, inverting it, sitting on it and then hitting ignition.


Couldn't agree more. Everyone is so interested in the odds of how they can make money, they forget to look at the product or potential dangers of the company behind the products.


----------



## rickm19

Toddsterpatriot said:


> rickm19 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Toddsterpatriot said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rickm19 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Toddsterpatriot said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rickm19 said:
> 
> 
> 
> BAD info?.. when the stock market crashes what happens??? It takes years to recoup if it's even possible to break even. Now granted that is few and far in between but almost guaranteed to happen in our lifetime.
> 
> Yeah they already take about half of our money... haha
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *BAD info?..*
> 
> Yes.
> 
> *when the stock market crashes what happens???*
> 
> Stock prices go down. Durr.
> Well duh.. That wasn't the point of the question.. But great logic lol.
> 
> * It takes years to recoup if it's even possible to break even.*
> 
> And?
> 
> *Now granted that is few and far in between but almost guaranteed to happen in our lifetime.*
> 
> Yup.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> So if people loose out once in their lifetime that drops them under the amount of investments that were put in, where is the benefit in that? If everyone pulls out you get a complete collapse so the people who know it is coming pull out while they advise others to stay in... I am all for investing in the right things but most of the people that are vested have no clue what they are vested in and the market is laid out so it is incomprehensible to most. Is that really fair to the people who bust their ass their entire life to support the system?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> *So if people loose out once in their lifetime that drops them under the amount of investments that were put in, where is the benefit in that?*
> 
> Who did that? When?
> 
> *If everyone pulls out you get a complete collapse*
> 
> When did everyone pull out? Where?
> 
> *so the people who know it is coming pull out*
> 
> Who knows when what collapse is coming?
> 
> *Is that really fair to the people who bust their ass their entire life to support the system?*
> 
> Of course not, but enough about the Federal government.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> LOL very good. Who said anything about the federal government .
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You did when you mentioned people "loosing (sic) their life savings" and again when you mentioned "bust their ass to support the system"
Click to expand...

Well not sure how "loosing their life savings" falls into that category, unless you are talking about the ones who run for office and have to put up so much money for campaigns..
and I cant disagree about busting their ass to support the system.. I was a military man so I know how that works. Even in politics the metal drain for thinking and caring about others can be in that classification.


----------



## william the wie

rickm19 said:


> william the wie said:
> 
> 
> 
> I just did something I rarely do, I checked some technical indicators.
> 
> Margin is declining rapidly.  The odds of a continued bull run have gone from roughly 15 to 1 to 9 to 7 as a result.
> 
> Energy at the margin can decline to less than $5/bbl due to the reduction in rig count. Diagonal drilling in a well that goes from productive to dry has a much greater probability of hitting oil or gas and at much lower cost. Since royalty trusts are and have been really pushed this means that a lot of money will exit the market when this happens.
> 
> dividend reinvestment as a percentage of total return is declining in favor of stock buybacks to reduce the supply of shares available for sale. this is extremely bad news.
> 
> CAPE or Shiller PE is headed for Alpha Centauri at about warp nine. This is very bas news.
> 
> So, the current situation is that we have most players, not investors, ignoring both fundamentals and technical indicators. This is the financial equivalent of filling a bucket with TNT, inverting it, sitting on it and then hitting ignition.
> 
> 
> 
> Couldn't agree more. Everyone is so interested in the odds of how they can make money, they forget to look at the product or potential dangers of the company behind the products.
Click to expand...


The greatest investor who ever lived and literally Buffett's teacher (at Columbia U), Benjamin Graham, beat the Dow 4 to 1 1926-56 by buying only companies selling for less than the cash in the till. The fact is that cash is king and capital gains are fairy gold until cashed in. Yet DC and I do mean both major parties have been promoting financial leverage for dubious investments since 1921. Take the student loans and 30 year mortgages that impoverish so many, There is no evidence that they add net value and there hasn't been since 1968.


----------



## rickm19

william the wie said:


> rickm19 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> william the wie said:
> 
> 
> 
> I just did something I rarely do, I checked some technical indicators.
> 
> Margin is declining rapidly.  The odds of a continued bull run have gone from roughly 15 to 1 to 9 to 7 as a result.
> 
> Energy at the margin can decline to less than $5/bbl due to the reduction in rig count. Diagonal drilling in a well that goes from productive to dry has a much greater probability of hitting oil or gas and at much lower cost. Since royalty trusts are and have been really pushed this means that a lot of money will exit the market when this happens.
> 
> dividend reinvestment as a percentage of total return is declining in favor of stock buybacks to reduce the supply of shares available for sale. this is extremely bad news.
> 
> CAPE or Shiller PE is headed for Alpha Centauri at about warp nine. This is very bas news.
> 
> So, the current situation is that we have most players, not investors, ignoring both fundamentals and technical indicators. This is the financial equivalent of filling a bucket with TNT, inverting it, sitting on it and then hitting ignition.
> 
> 
> 
> Couldn't agree more. Everyone is so interested in the odds of how they can make money, they forget to look at the product or potential dangers of the company behind the products.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The greatest investor who ever lived and literally Buffett's teacher (at Columbia U), Benjamin Graham, beat the Dow 4 to 1 1926-56 by buying only companies selling for less than the cash in the till. The fact is that cash is king and capital gains are fairy gold until cashed in. Yet DC and I do mean both major parties have been promoting financial leverage for dubious investments since 1921. Take the student loans and 30 year mortgages that impoverish so many, There is no evidence that they add net value and there hasn't been since 1968.
Click to expand...

cash is king and I think that has a huge problem with how the market is run and why people invest. If I had cash I would be investing in companies that will promote great benefits for employees and that produce products for a healthy, ecological, sustainable future.. not companies that just want to put money in their pocket. But for those of us who do not come from wealth we get stuck because like you said we are either tied down with a mortgage or student loans.. now I did not go to college nor do I fell that anyone who wants an education should have to pay for it.. i served in iraq and they dont even make the kids pay for college.... Basic fact is that unless you come from wealth or have a great idea that hasn't already been taken or you take advantage of the lesser you are going to stuggle your whole life. the system is designed to keep the rich richer and the poor or middle class from getting ahead where they don't have to pay out to the wealthy. I just don't think that is humane and is is going to be the cause of a revolution because there are too many people who are tired of it unless things start to change. in pa there are talks of raising the minimum wage by 3 bucks an hour but that is only going to benefit if the owners absorb that increase if they don't it is just going to cause inflation...


----------



## Zander

rickm19 said:


> william the wie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rickm19 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> william the wie said:
> 
> 
> 
> I just did something I rarely do, I checked some technical indicators.
> 
> Margin is declining rapidly.  The odds of a continued bull run have gone from roughly 15 to 1 to 9 to 7 as a result.
> 
> Energy at the margin can decline to less than $5/bbl due to the reduction in rig count. Diagonal drilling in a well that goes from productive to dry has a much greater probability of hitting oil or gas and at much lower cost. Since royalty trusts are and have been really pushed this means that a lot of money will exit the market when this happens.
> 
> dividend reinvestment as a percentage of total return is declining in favor of stock buybacks to reduce the supply of shares available for sale. this is extremely bad news.
> 
> CAPE or Shiller PE is headed for Alpha Centauri at about warp nine. This is very bas news.
> 
> So, the current situation is that we have most players, not investors, ignoring both fundamentals and technical indicators. This is the financial equivalent of filling a bucket with TNT, inverting it, sitting on it and then hitting ignition.
> 
> 
> 
> Couldn't agree more. Everyone is so interested in the odds of how they can make money, they forget to look at the product or potential dangers of the company behind the products.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The greatest investor who ever lived and literally Buffett's teacher (at Columbia U), Benjamin Graham, beat the Dow 4 to 1 1926-56 by buying only companies selling for less than the cash in the till. The fact is that cash is king and capital gains are fairy gold until cashed in. Yet DC and I do mean both major parties have been promoting financial leverage for dubious investments since 1921. Take the student loans and 30 year mortgages that impoverish so many, There is no evidence that they add net value and there hasn't been since 1968.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> cash is king and I think that has a huge problem with how the market is run and why people invest. If I had cash I would be investing in companies that will promote great benefits for employees and that produce products for a healthy, ecological, sustainable future.. not companies that just want to put money in their pocket. But for those of us who do not come from wealth we get stuck because like you said we are either tied down with a mortgage or student loans.. now I did not go to college nor do I fell that anyone who wants an education should have to pay for it.. i served in iraq and they dont even make the kids pay for college.... Basic fact is that unless you come from wealth or have a great idea that hasn't already been taken or you take advantage of the lesser you are going to stuggle your whole life. the system is designed to keep the rich richer and the poor or middle class from getting ahead where they don't have to pay out to the wealthy. I just don't think that is humane and is is going to be the cause of a revolution because there are too many people who are tired of it unless things start to change. in pa there are talks of raising the minimum wage by 3 bucks an hour but that is only going to benefit if the owners absorb that increase if they don't it is just going to cause inflation...
Click to expand...


Sorry, but you are wrong. The only "real" barrier to success in the USA is between your ears......


----------



## rickm19

Zander said:


> rickm19 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> william the wie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rickm19 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> william the wie said:
> 
> 
> 
> I just did something I rarely do, I checked some technical indicators.
> 
> Margin is declining rapidly.  The odds of a continued bull run have gone from roughly 15 to 1 to 9 to 7 as a result.
> 
> Energy at the margin can decline to less than $5/bbl due to the reduction in rig count. Diagonal drilling in a well that goes from productive to dry has a much greater probability of hitting oil or gas and at much lower cost. Since royalty trusts are and have been really pushed this means that a lot of money will exit the market when this happens.
> 
> dividend reinvestment as a percentage of total return is declining in favor of stock buybacks to reduce the supply of shares available for sale. this is extremely bad news.
> 
> CAPE or Shiller PE is headed for Alpha Centauri at about warp nine. This is very bas news.
> 
> So, the current situation is that we have most players, not investors, ignoring both fundamentals and technical indicators. This is the financial equivalent of filling a bucket with TNT, inverting it, sitting on it and then hitting ignition.
> 
> 
> 
> Couldn't agree more. Everyone is so interested in the odds of how they can make money, they forget to look at the product or potential dangers of the company behind the products.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The greatest investor who ever lived and literally Buffett's teacher (at Columbia U), Benjamin Graham, beat the Dow 4 to 1 1926-56 by buying only companies selling for less than the cash in the till. The fact is that cash is king and capital gains are fairy gold until cashed in. Yet DC and I do mean both major parties have been promoting financial leverage for dubious investments since 1921. Take the student loans and 30 year mortgages that impoverish so many, There is no evidence that they add net value and there hasn't been since 1968.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> cash is king and I think that has a huge problem with how the market is run and why people invest. If I had cash I would be investing in companies that will promote great benefits for employees and that produce products for a healthy, ecological, sustainable future.. not companies that just want to put money in their pocket. But for those of us who do not come from wealth we get stuck because like you said we are either tied down with a mortgage or student loans.. now I did not go to college nor do I fell that anyone who wants an education should have to pay for it.. i served in iraq and they dont even make the kids pay for college.... Basic fact is that unless you come from wealth or have a great idea that hasn't already been taken or you take advantage of the lesser you are going to stuggle your whole life. the system is designed to keep the rich richer and the poor or middle class from getting ahead where they don't have to pay out to the wealthy. I just don't think that is humane and is is going to be the cause of a revolution because there are too many people who are tired of it unless things start to change. in pa there are talks of raising the minimum wage by 3 bucks an hour but that is only going to benefit if the owners absorb that increase if they don't it is just going to cause inflation...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Sorry, but you are wrong. The only "real" barrier to success in the USA is between your ears......
Click to expand...

Hahaha for many yes.. me I am on my way to sucess. But it has been a long rough road and the problem with that is people like to screw others over when they see someone smater than them. The saying keep your friends close but enemies closer is too prominent in today's society.. it's sad that no one can trust anyone. But also why should sucess depend on one's ability to think? to me the barrier to sucess should be ones heart along with the Brian.


----------



## Zander

Yes, the Brian.......


----------



## rickm19

Zander said:


> Yes, the Brian.......


Yeah yeah stupid auto spelling changed it.. I like how that is your best rebuttal


----------



## william the wie

Brains are not the biggie.
Knowing your own limitations, self discipline, living below your means and many other things rank higher.


----------



## william the wie

If you want real wealth become a tree farmer or a goatherd. Since I've checked out goatherding and how it works I'll go over that one in more detail:

The hours suck, the big drawback.

You get paid to feed your herd by state and federal parks and forests as well as farms infested with weeds such as kudzu.

Sales of meat and milk are very good

the capital to set up is generally about the same as a McMansion or less.


----------



## rickm19

william the wie said:


> If you want real wealth become a tree farmer or a goatherd. Since I've checked out goatherding and how it works I'll go over that one in more detail:
> 
> The hours suck, the big drawback.
> 
> You get paid to feed your herd by state and federal parks and forests as well as farms infested with weeds such as kudzu.
> 
> Sales of meat and milk are very good
> 
> the capital to set up is generally about the same as a McMansion or less.



Haha I like it! A good hard working job! I would go crazy with a job like that though... I'm not looking for wealth though I just want to be able to help others more. I like where I am at and will be in a hard working lucrative position in the not too distant future. Just need to learn a bit more about business and how to make wise choices with the cashflow. You sound like a very knowledgable man!


----------



## william the wie

rickm19 said:


> william the wie said:
> 
> 
> 
> If you want real wealth become a tree farmer or a goatherd. Since I've checked out goatherding and how it works I'll go over that one in more detail:
> 
> The hours suck, the big drawback.
> 
> You get paid to feed your herd by state and federal parks and forests as well as farms infested with weeds such as kudzu.
> 
> Sales of meat and milk are very good
> 
> the capital to set up is generally about the same as a McMansion or less.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Haha I like it! A good hard working job! I would go crazy with a job like that though... I'm not looking for wealth though I just want to be able to help others more. I like where I am at and will be in a hard working lucrative position in the not too distant future. Just need to learn a bit more about business and how to make wise choices with the cashflow. You sound like a very knowledgable man!
Click to expand...

If you are going to invest know what you are doing and more importantly know how to figure out if something is outside your circle of competence.

If what you want to do is help people every Starbucks and Panera's in the country has to discard baked goods you can drop that off at a local soup kitchen and it looks good on your resume..


----------



## haissem123

it was supposed to be good but mankind's greed took over as usual. Now it's just a corrupt house of cards continually collapsing upon us all. Time to do away with it. 911 was God turning over the corrupt tables in his house. You are investing in buying and selling other peoples lives to the lowest bidder. no good can come from that. ou have done unto others and now it's being done unto us all and it doesn't seem right all of a sudden. lol. kill all the goldmen sacking your retirement funds you are now forced to invest in their corrupt markets. it's texas holdem on the short stack and worse. the market can and is nothing but manipulation and lies for a few to own the many.


----------



## william the wie

The stock market is subject to the same sort of if it bleeds it leads mindset as any other news people are interested in. Most markets generally don't do anything half the time. That is why there are index funds and ETFs to make watching the market less mind numbing. Make it sound exciting instead of a lesson in how interest compounds, which is what it is, and people pour their money in.


----------



## Flopper

rickm19 said:


> So I'm debating in my own mind if the stock market is a drain on society or if it is beneficial...
> We put money in for long term investments in companies.. if they go under we loose out. All it is is people playing with other people's money to try to either better the world with great inventions or make a quick buck. I personally don't see much benefit in it when most middle class people who are invested through investing companies loose their life savings or loose more than what they put in to into because the economy is in shambles or the companies they are vested in go under or just get greedy and sell out. Although I do believe in investing in the companies that will better this world and help sustain things. So why should we rely on a fluctuating market to hopefully have a nest egg for when we retire?


Who said you have to invest in the stock market to build your nest egg. There are other forms of investment such as real estate,  ownership in local businesses, precious metals, and collectibles.  However, you can loose your shirt in these investments.  Investing always involves risk.  Without risk, there's no reward.  And the secret of all successful investing is weighing the risk versus the reward.


----------



## Flopper

haissem123 said:


> it was supposed to be good but mankind's greed took over as usual. Now it's just a corrupt house of cards continually collapsing upon us all. Time to do away with it. 911 was God turning over the corrupt tables in his house. You are investing in buying and selling other peoples lives to the lowest bidder. no good can come from that. ou have done unto others and now it's being done unto us all and it doesn't seem right all of a sudden. lol. kill all the goldmen sacking your retirement funds you are now forced to invest in their corrupt markets. it's texas holdem on the short stack and worse. the market can and is nothing but manipulation and lies for a few to own the many.


The stock market was created for the 1%, not the 99%. Over the years we made the market a safer place for the public by eliminating a lot of unfair practices but the risks of investing are still there and the 1% will always have advantages over the 99%.


----------



## rickm19

Flopper said:


> haissem123 said:
> 
> 
> 
> it was supposed to be good but mankind's greed took over as usual. Now it's just a corrupt house of cards continually collapsing upon us all. Time to do away with it. 911 was God turning over the corrupt tables in his house. You are investing in buying and selling other peoples lives to the lowest bidder. no good can come from that. ou have done unto others and now it's being done unto us all and it doesn't seem right all of a sudden. lol. kill all the goldmen sacking your retirement funds you are now forced to invest in their corrupt markets. it's texas holdem on the short stack and worse. the market can and is nothing but manipulation and lies for a few to own the many.
> 
> 
> 
> The stock market was created for the 1%, not the 99%. Over the years we made the market a safer place for the public by eliminating a lot of unfair practices but the risks of investing are still there and the 1% will always have advantages over the 99%.
Click to expand...

That is my point. It was created by the wealthy manipulators so they had an easier to invest the money, that they already had, to make more. Now I have never paid attention to it because I don't agree with how and why it was created. But since almost every hard working American is invested in it in one way or another I have become interested in it because I do care about the people and unless you actually pay attention to it over the course of a lifetime a 401K is not very beneficial to ones just contributing out of their pay checks. Now most of us are starting to see how corrupt it is and many people want a revolution, which I don't think is the key to anything. Now correct me if I am wrong but this is the stock market in a nutshell.... A guy with no money, due to being controlled by the finical aspect of the world, has a great idea for a business that can help others and change lives. So without the money he turns to the men with the money and signs a contract so that man can "help" him. So basically that contract forms a publicly traded business so others can "benefit" from that companies growth. Now obviously there are different ways to fund a startup campaign so the business would not be publicly traded but if that man making the contract wants it there it will be. So with one simple little transaction the man with the money simply makes more money by doing nothing as long as that company flourishes. So there is the risk. But what most people don't see is how that contract cuts into a businesses profits and takes away from the hard working people who are sitting there making that money for them. While the big man on top uses that money that he really didn't need to begin with to vest in other things and simply using his mind to control the profits he makes. Now if you are in that one percent I applaud you. But I really think it is time to stop looking at how much money can be made and start looking at how we can make this world more sustainable and stop dumping money into houses that have so much room it could house and sustain 20 families. Think about the energy consumption it takes and chain effect that is has on humanity. Most of the one percenters believe in population control from what I understand. We don't need that, we just need better investing and more economical sustainability. Only God has the right to deem who lives and who dies. And if you think Satain is the true God well im sure you will not appreciate his slavery when your time on this earth is done and over with. See God didn't forbid eve to eat from the tree of knowledge to hold her back. He simply did it to test her because he knows that without him, knowledge can the be fruit of all evil.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot

rickm19 said:


> Flopper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> haissem123 said:
> 
> 
> 
> it was supposed to be good but mankind's greed took over as usual. Now it's just a corrupt house of cards continually collapsing upon us all. Time to do away with it. 911 was God turning over the corrupt tables in his house. You are investing in buying and selling other peoples lives to the lowest bidder. no good can come from that. ou have done unto others and now it's being done unto us all and it doesn't seem right all of a sudden. lol. kill all the goldmen sacking your retirement funds you are now forced to invest in their corrupt markets. it's texas holdem on the short stack and worse. the market can and is nothing but manipulation and lies for a few to own the many.
> 
> 
> 
> The stock market was created for the 1%, not the 99%. Over the years we made the market a safer place for the public by eliminating a lot of unfair practices but the risks of investing are still there and the 1% will always have advantages over the 99%.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> That is my point. It was created by the wealthy manipulators so they had an easier to invest the money, that they already had, to make more. Now I have never paid attention to it because I don't agree with how and why it was created. But since almost every hard working American is invested in it in one way or another I have become interested in it because I do care about the people and unless you actually pay attention to it over the course of a lifetime a 401K is not very beneficial to ones just contributing out of their pay checks. Now most of us are starting to see how corrupt it is and many people want a revolution, which I don't think is the key to anything. Now correct me if I am wrong but this is the stock market in a nutshell.... A guy with no money, due to being controlled by the finical aspect of the world, has a great idea for a business that can help others and change lives. So without the money he turns to the men with the money and signs a contract so that man can "help" him. So basically that contract forms a publicly traded business so others can "benefit" from that companies growth. Now obviously there are different ways to fund a startup campaign so the business would not be publicly traded but if that man making the contract wants it there it will be. So with one simple little transaction the man with the money simply makes more money by doing nothing as long as that company flourishes. So there is the risk. But what most people don't see is how that contract cuts into a businesses profits and takes away from the hard working people who are sitting there making that money for them. While the big man on top uses that money that he really didn't need to begin with to vest in other things and simply using his mind to control the profits he makes. Now if you are in that one percent I applaud you. But I really think it is time to stop looking at how much money can be made and start looking at how we can make this world more sustainable and stop dumping money into houses that have so much room it could house and sustain 20 families. Think about the energy consumption it takes and chain effect that is has on humanity. Most of the one percenters believe in population control from what I understand. We don't need that, we just need better investing and more economical sustainability. Only God has the right to deem who lives and who dies. And if you think Satain is the true God well im sure you will not appreciate his slavery when your time on this earth is done and over with. See God didn't forbid eve to eat from the tree of knowledge to hold her back. He simply did it to test her because he knows that without him, knowledge can the be fruit of all evil.
Click to expand...

 
* I do care about the people and unless you actually pay attention to it over the course of a lifetime a 401K is not very beneficial to ones just contributing out of their pay checks.*

Bullshit.

* Now most of us are starting to see how corrupt it is and many people want a revolution,*

Just the idiots.

In the future, break your stupid rants into paragraphs. You look less crazy that way.


----------



## haissem123

Flopper said:


> haissem123 said:
> 
> 
> 
> it was supposed to be good but mankind's greed took over as usual. Now it's just a corrupt house of cards continually collapsing upon us all. Time to do away with it. 911 was God turning over the corrupt tables in his house. You are investing in buying and selling other peoples lives to the lowest bidder. no good can come from that. ou have done unto others and now it's being done unto us all and it doesn't seem right all of a sudden. lol. kill all the goldmen sacking your retirement funds you are now forced to invest in their corrupt markets. it's texas holdem on the short stack and worse. the market can and is nothing but manipulation and lies for a few to own the many.
> 
> 
> 
> The stock market was created for the 1%, not the 99%. Over the years we made the market a safer place for the public by eliminating a lot of unfair practices but the risks of investing are still there and the 1% will always have advantages over the 99%.
Click to expand...

we've let them open all those loop holes and liars dens all over again. don't think because you have a few million in the market you are assured salvation for the penalties that corrupt falling house will impose on the fools that sell each other out. wake up


----------



## haissem123

rickm19 said:


> Flopper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> haissem123 said:
> 
> 
> 
> it was supposed to be good but mankind's greed took over as usual. Now it's just a corrupt house of cards continually collapsing upon us all. Time to do away with it. 911 was God turning over the corrupt tables in his house. You are investing in buying and selling other peoples lives to the lowest bidder. no good can come from that. ou have done unto others and now it's being done unto us all and it doesn't seem right all of a sudden. lol. kill all the goldmen sacking your retirement funds you are now forced to invest in their corrupt markets. it's texas holdem on the short stack and worse. the market can and is nothing but manipulation and lies for a few to own the many.
> 
> 
> 
> The stock market was created for the 1%, not the 99%. Over the years we made the market a safer place for the public by eliminating a lot of unfair practices but the risks of investing are still there and the 1% will always have advantages over the 99%.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> That is my point. It was created by the wealthy manipulators so they had an easier to invest the money, that they already had, to make more. Now I have never paid attention to it because I don't agree with how and why it was created. But since almost every hard working American is invested in it in one way or another I have become interested in it because I do care about the people and unless you actually pay attention to it over the course of a lifetime a 401K is not very beneficial to ones just contributing out of their pay checks. Now most of us are starting to see how corrupt it is and many people want a revolution, which I don't think is the key to anything. Now correct me if I am wrong but this is the stock market in a nutshell.... A guy with no money, due to being controlled by the finical aspect of the world, has a great idea for a business that can help others and change lives. So without the money he turns to the men with the money and signs a contract so that man can "help" him. So basically that contract forms a publicly traded business so others can "benefit" from that companies growth. Now obviously there are different ways to fund a startup campaign so the business would not be publicly traded but if that man making the contract wants it there it will be. So with one simple little transaction the man with the money simply makes more money by doing nothing as long as that company flourishes. So there is the risk. But what most people don't see is how that contract cuts into a businesses profits and takes away from the hard working people who are sitting there making that money for them. While the big man on top uses that money that he really didn't need to begin with to vest in other things and simply using his mind to control the profits he makes. Now if you are in that one percent I applaud you. But I really think it is time to stop looking at how much money can be made and start looking at how we can make this world more sustainable and stop dumping money into houses that have so much room it could house and sustain 20 families. Think about the energy consumption it takes and chain effect that is has on humanity. Most of the one percenters believe in population control from what I understand. We don't need that, we just need better investing and more economical sustainability. Only God has the right to deem who lives and who dies. And if you think Satain is the true God well im sure you will not appreciate his slavery when your time on this earth is done and over with. See God didn't forbid eve to eat from the tree of knowledge to hold her back. He simply did it to test her because he knows that without him, knowledge can the be fruit of all evil.
Click to expand...

these are the same kings investing the gold they stole for ever and ever apparently, we never over throw them just let them hide among us to resurface.


----------



## haissem123

Toddsterpatriot said:


> rickm19 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Flopper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> haissem123 said:
> 
> 
> 
> it was supposed to be good but mankind's greed took over as usual. Now it's just a corrupt house of cards continually collapsing upon us all. Time to do away with it. 911 was God turning over the corrupt tables in his house. You are investing in buying and selling other peoples lives to the lowest bidder. no good can come from that. ou have done unto others and now it's being done unto us all and it doesn't seem right all of a sudden. lol. kill all the goldmen sacking your retirement funds you are now forced to invest in their corrupt markets. it's texas holdem on the short stack and worse. the market can and is nothing but manipulation and lies for a few to own the many.
> 
> 
> 
> The stock market was created for the 1%, not the 99%. Over the years we made the market a safer place for the public by eliminating a lot of unfair practices but the risks of investing are still there and the 1% will always have advantages over the 99%.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> That is my point. It was created by the wealthy manipulators so they had an easier to invest the money, that they already had, to make more. Now I have never paid attention to it because I don't agree with how and why it was created. But since almost every hard working American is invested in it in one way or another I have become interested in it because I do care about the people and unless you actually pay attention to it over the course of a lifetime a 401K is not very beneficial to ones just contributing out of their pay checks. Now most of us are starting to see how corrupt it is and many people want a revolution, which I don't think is the key to anything. Now correct me if I am wrong but this is the stock market in a nutshell.... A guy with no money, due to being controlled by the finical aspect of the world, has a great idea for a business that can help others and change lives. So without the money he turns to the men with the money and signs a contract so that man can "help" him. So basically that contract forms a publicly traded business so others can "benefit" from that companies growth. Now obviously there are different ways to fund a startup campaign so the business would not be publicly traded but if that man making the contract wants it there it will be. So with one simple little transaction the man with the money simply makes more money by doing nothing as long as that company flourishes. So there is the risk. But what most people don't see is how that contract cuts into a businesses profits and takes away from the hard working people who are sitting there making that money for them. While the big man on top uses that money that he really didn't need to begin with to vest in other things and simply using his mind to control the profits he makes. Now if you are in that one percent I applaud you. But I really think it is time to stop looking at how much money can be made and start looking at how we can make this world more sustainable and stop dumping money into houses that have so much room it could house and sustain 20 families. Think about the energy consumption it takes and chain effect that is has on humanity. Most of the one percenters believe in population control from what I understand. We don't need that, we just need better investing and more economical sustainability. Only God has the right to deem who lives and who dies. And if you think Satain is the true God well im sure you will not appreciate his slavery when your time on this earth is done and over with. See God didn't forbid eve to eat from the tree of knowledge to hold her back. He simply did it to test her because he knows that without him, knowledge can the be fruit of all evil.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> * I do care about the people and unless you actually pay attention to it over the course of a lifetime a 401K is not very beneficial to ones just contributing out of their pay checks.*
> 
> Bullshit.
> 
> * Now most of us are starting to see how corrupt it is and many people want a revolution,*
> 
> Just the idiots.
> 
> In the future, break your stupid rants into paragraphs. You look less crazy that way.
Click to expand...

just the true americans that see their democracy, justice system and futures being sold to kings of industry for peanuts. like your brain. a peanut


----------



## rickm19

Toddsterpatriot said:


> rickm19 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Flopper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> haissem123 said:
> 
> 
> 
> it was supposed to be good but mankind's greed took over as usual. Now it's just a corrupt house of cards continually collapsing upon us all. Time to do away with it. 911 was God turning over the corrupt tables in his house. You are investing in buying and selling other peoples lives to the lowest bidder. no good can come from that. ou have done unto others and now it's being done unto us all and it doesn't seem right all of a sudden. lol. kill all the goldmen sacking your retirement funds you are now forced to invest in their corrupt markets. it's texas holdem on the short stack and worse. the market can and is nothing but manipulation and lies for a few to own the many.
> 
> 
> 
> The stock market was created for the 1%, not the 99%. Over the years we made the market a safer place for the public by eliminating a lot of unfair practices but the risks of investing are still there and the 1% will always have advantages over the 99%.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> That is my point. It was created by the wealthy manipulators so they had an easier to invest the money, that they already had, to make more. Now I have never paid attention to it because I don't agree with how and why it was created. But since almost every hard working American is invested in it in one way or another I have become interested in it because I do care about the people and unless you actually pay attention to it over the course of a lifetime a 401K is not very beneficial to ones just contributing out of their pay checks. Now most of us are starting to see how corrupt it is and many people want a revolution, which I don't think is the key to anything. Now correct me if I am wrong but this is the stock market in a nutshell.... A guy with no money, due to being controlled by the finical aspect of the world, has a great idea for a business that can help others and change lives. So without the money he turns to the men with the money and signs a contract so that man can "help" him. So basically that contract forms a publicly traded business so others can "benefit" from that companies growth. Now obviously there are different ways to fund a startup campaign so the business would not be publicly traded but if that man making the contract wants it there it will be. So with one simple little transaction the man with the money simply makes more money by doing nothing as long as that company flourishes. So there is the risk. But what most people don't see is how that contract cuts into a businesses profits and takes away from the hard working people who are sitting there making that money for them. While the big man on top uses that money that he really didn't need to begin with to vest in other things and simply using his mind to control the profits he makes. Now if you are in that one percent I applaud you. But I really think it is time to stop looking at how much money can be made and start looking at how we can make this world more sustainable and stop dumping money into houses that have so much room it could house and sustain 20 families. Think about the energy consumption it takes and chain effect that is has on humanity. Most of the one percenters believe in population control from what I understand. We don't need that, we just need better investing and more economical sustainability. Only God has the right to deem who lives and who dies. And if you think Satain is the true God well im sure you will not appreciate his slavery when your time on this earth is done and over with. See God didn't forbid eve to eat from the tree of knowledge to hold her back. He simply did it to test her because he knows that without him, knowledge can the be fruit of all evil.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> * I do care about the people and unless you actually pay attention to it over the course of a lifetime a 401K is not very beneficial to ones just contributing out of their pay checks.*
> 
> Bullshit.
> 
> * Now most of us are starting to see how corrupt it is and many people want a revolution,*
> 
> Just the idiots.
> 
> In the future, break your stupid rants into paragraphs. You look less crazy that way.
Click to expand...

Don't call Bullshit without backup. It happened in 1929 and again in 2009. That is a 80 year cycle where anyone deeply vested at a high age lost out.

Ahh see you call them idiots. Me I see them as the good hard working Americans who are tired of making crap while they make the rich richer and getting 30% of their checks taken by the government. The idiots are the one too naïve to see what really goes on behind closed doors.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot

rickm19 said:


> Toddsterpatriot said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rickm19 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Flopper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> haissem123 said:
> 
> 
> 
> it was supposed to be good but mankind's greed took over as usual. Now it's just a corrupt house of cards continually collapsing upon us all. Time to do away with it. 911 was God turning over the corrupt tables in his house. You are investing in buying and selling other peoples lives to the lowest bidder. no good can come from that. ou have done unto others and now it's being done unto us all and it doesn't seem right all of a sudden. lol. kill all the goldmen sacking your retirement funds you are now forced to invest in their corrupt markets. it's texas holdem on the short stack and worse. the market can and is nothing but manipulation and lies for a few to own the many.
> 
> 
> 
> The stock market was created for the 1%, not the 99%. Over the years we made the market a safer place for the public by eliminating a lot of unfair practices but the risks of investing are still there and the 1% will always have advantages over the 99%.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> That is my point. It was created by the wealthy manipulators so they had an easier to invest the money, that they already had, to make more. Now I have never paid attention to it because I don't agree with how and why it was created. But since almost every hard working American is invested in it in one way or another I have become interested in it because I do care about the people and unless you actually pay attention to it over the course of a lifetime a 401K is not very beneficial to ones just contributing out of their pay checks. Now most of us are starting to see how corrupt it is and many people want a revolution, which I don't think is the key to anything. Now correct me if I am wrong but this is the stock market in a nutshell.... A guy with no money, due to being controlled by the finical aspect of the world, has a great idea for a business that can help others and change lives. So without the money he turns to the men with the money and signs a contract so that man can "help" him. So basically that contract forms a publicly traded business so others can "benefit" from that companies growth. Now obviously there are different ways to fund a startup campaign so the business would not be publicly traded but if that man making the contract wants it there it will be. So with one simple little transaction the man with the money simply makes more money by doing nothing as long as that company flourishes. So there is the risk. But what most people don't see is how that contract cuts into a businesses profits and takes away from the hard working people who are sitting there making that money for them. While the big man on top uses that money that he really didn't need to begin with to vest in other things and simply using his mind to control the profits he makes. Now if you are in that one percent I applaud you. But I really think it is time to stop looking at how much money can be made and start looking at how we can make this world more sustainable and stop dumping money into houses that have so much room it could house and sustain 20 families. Think about the energy consumption it takes and chain effect that is has on humanity. Most of the one percenters believe in population control from what I understand. We don't need that, we just need better investing and more economical sustainability. Only God has the right to deem who lives and who dies. And if you think Satain is the true God well im sure you will not appreciate his slavery when your time on this earth is done and over with. See God didn't forbid eve to eat from the tree of knowledge to hold her back. He simply did it to test her because he knows that without him, knowledge can the be fruit of all evil.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> * I do care about the people and unless you actually pay attention to it over the course of a lifetime a 401K is not very beneficial to ones just contributing out of their pay checks.*
> 
> Bullshit.
> 
> * Now most of us are starting to see how corrupt it is and many people want a revolution,*
> 
> Just the idiots.
> 
> In the future, break your stupid rants into paragraphs. You look less crazy that way.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Don't call Bullshit without backup. It happened in 1929 and again in 2009. That is a 80 year cycle where anyone deeply vested at a high age lost out.
> 
> Ahh see you call them idiots. Me I see them as the good hard working Americans who are tired of making crap while they make the rich richer and getting 30% of their checks taken by the government. The idiots are the one too naïve to see what really goes on behind closed doors.
Click to expand...

* 
 It happened in 1929 and again in 2009.*

What happened in 1929 and 2009 that would harm someone that invested in their 401K over the course of their lifetime?


----------



## Toddsterpatriot

rickm19 said:


> Toddsterpatriot said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rickm19 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Flopper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> haissem123 said:
> 
> 
> 
> it was supposed to be good but mankind's greed took over as usual. Now it's just a corrupt house of cards continually collapsing upon us all. Time to do away with it. 911 was God turning over the corrupt tables in his house. You are investing in buying and selling other peoples lives to the lowest bidder. no good can come from that. ou have done unto others and now it's being done unto us all and it doesn't seem right all of a sudden. lol. kill all the goldmen sacking your retirement funds you are now forced to invest in their corrupt markets. it's texas holdem on the short stack and worse. the market can and is nothing but manipulation and lies for a few to own the many.
> 
> 
> 
> The stock market was created for the 1%, not the 99%. Over the years we made the market a safer place for the public by eliminating a lot of unfair practices but the risks of investing are still there and the 1% will always have advantages over the 99%.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> That is my point. It was created by the wealthy manipulators so they had an easier to invest the money, that they already had, to make more. Now I have never paid attention to it because I don't agree with how and why it was created. But since almost every hard working American is invested in it in one way or another I have become interested in it because I do care about the people and unless you actually pay attention to it over the course of a lifetime a 401K is not very beneficial to ones just contributing out of their pay checks. Now most of us are starting to see how corrupt it is and many people want a revolution, which I don't think is the key to anything. Now correct me if I am wrong but this is the stock market in a nutshell.... A guy with no money, due to being controlled by the finical aspect of the world, has a great idea for a business that can help others and change lives. So without the money he turns to the men with the money and signs a contract so that man can "help" him. So basically that contract forms a publicly traded business so others can "benefit" from that companies growth. Now obviously there are different ways to fund a startup campaign so the business would not be publicly traded but if that man making the contract wants it there it will be. So with one simple little transaction the man with the money simply makes more money by doing nothing as long as that company flourishes. So there is the risk. But what most people don't see is how that contract cuts into a businesses profits and takes away from the hard working people who are sitting there making that money for them. While the big man on top uses that money that he really didn't need to begin with to vest in other things and simply using his mind to control the profits he makes. Now if you are in that one percent I applaud you. But I really think it is time to stop looking at how much money can be made and start looking at how we can make this world more sustainable and stop dumping money into houses that have so much room it could house and sustain 20 families. Think about the energy consumption it takes and chain effect that is has on humanity. Most of the one percenters believe in population control from what I understand. We don't need that, we just need better investing and more economical sustainability. Only God has the right to deem who lives and who dies. And if you think Satain is the true God well im sure you will not appreciate his slavery when your time on this earth is done and over with. See God didn't forbid eve to eat from the tree of knowledge to hold her back. He simply did it to test her because he knows that without him, knowledge can the be fruit of all evil.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> * I do care about the people and unless you actually pay attention to it over the course of a lifetime a 401K is not very beneficial to ones just contributing out of their pay checks.*
> 
> Bullshit.
> 
> * Now most of us are starting to see how corrupt it is and many people want a revolution,*
> 
> Just the idiots.
> 
> In the future, break your stupid rants into paragraphs. You look less crazy that way.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Don't call Bullshit without backup. It happened in 1929 and again in 2009. That is a 80 year cycle where anyone deeply vested at a high age lost out.
> 
> Ahh see you call them idiots. Me I see them as the good hard working Americans who are tired of making crap while they make the rich richer and getting 30% of their checks taken by the government. The idiots are the one too naïve to see what really goes on behind closed doors.
Click to expand...

 
*Ahh see you call them idiots.*

Yes, people who think we need a revolution because of Wall Street are idiots.

*and getting 30% of their checks taken by the government.*

You don't think that's a good investment for your earnings? LOL!


----------



## haissem123

Toddsterpatriot said:


> rickm19 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Toddsterpatriot said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rickm19 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Flopper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> haissem123 said:
> 
> 
> 
> it was supposed to be good but mankind's greed took over as usual. Now it's just a corrupt house of cards continually collapsing upon us all. Time to do away with it. 911 was God turning over the corrupt tables in his house. You are investing in buying and selling other peoples lives to the lowest bidder. no good can come from that. ou have done unto others and now it's being done unto us all and it doesn't seem right all of a sudden. lol. kill all the goldmen sacking your retirement funds you are now forced to invest in their corrupt markets. it's texas holdem on the short stack and worse. the market can and is nothing but manipulation and lies for a few to own the many.
> 
> 
> 
> The stock market was created for the 1%, not the 99%. Over the years we made the market a safer place for the public by eliminating a lot of unfair practices but the risks of investing are still there and the 1% will always have advantages over the 99%.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> That is my point. It was created by the wealthy manipulators so they had an easier to invest the money, that they already had, to make more. Now I have never paid attention to it because I don't agree with how and why it was created. But since almost every hard working American is invested in it in one way or another I have become interested in it because I do care about the people and unless you actually pay attention to it over the course of a lifetime a 401K is not very beneficial to ones just contributing out of their pay checks. Now most of us are starting to see how corrupt it is and many people want a revolution, which I don't think is the key to anything. Now correct me if I am wrong but this is the stock market in a nutshell.... A guy with no money, due to being controlled by the finical aspect of the world, has a great idea for a business that can help others and change lives. So without the money he turns to the men with the money and signs a contract so that man can "help" him. So basically that contract forms a publicly traded business so others can "benefit" from that companies growth. Now obviously there are different ways to fund a startup campaign so the business would not be publicly traded but if that man making the contract wants it there it will be. So with one simple little transaction the man with the money simply makes more money by doing nothing as long as that company flourishes. So there is the risk. But what most people don't see is how that contract cuts into a businesses profits and takes away from the hard working people who are sitting there making that money for them. While the big man on top uses that money that he really didn't need to begin with to vest in other things and simply using his mind to control the profits he makes. Now if you are in that one percent I applaud you. But I really think it is time to stop looking at how much money can be made and start looking at how we can make this world more sustainable and stop dumping money into houses that have so much room it could house and sustain 20 families. Think about the energy consumption it takes and chain effect that is has on humanity. Most of the one percenters believe in population control from what I understand. We don't need that, we just need better investing and more economical sustainability. Only God has the right to deem who lives and who dies. And if you think Satain is the true God well im sure you will not appreciate his slavery when your time on this earth is done and over with. See God didn't forbid eve to eat from the tree of knowledge to hold her back. He simply did it to test her because he knows that without him, knowledge can the be fruit of all evil.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> * I do care about the people and unless you actually pay attention to it over the course of a lifetime a 401K is not very beneficial to ones just contributing out of their pay checks.*
> 
> Bullshit.
> 
> * Now most of us are starting to see how corrupt it is and many people want a revolution,*
> 
> Just the idiots.
> 
> In the future, break your stupid rants into paragraphs. You look less crazy that way.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Don't call Bullshit without backup. It happened in 1929 and again in 2009. That is a 80 year cycle where anyone deeply vested at a high age lost out.
> 
> Ahh see you call them idiots. Me I see them as the good hard working Americans who are tired of making crap while they make the rich richer and getting 30% of their checks taken by the government. The idiots are the one too naïve to see what really goes on behind closed doors.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> *Ahh see you call them idiots.*
> 
> Yes, people who think we need a revolution because of Wall Street are idiots.
> 
> *and getting 30% of their checks taken by the government.*
> 
> You don't think that's a good investment for your earnings? LOL!
Click to expand...

the looting of wealth by a few at any times hurts us all through out generations you fn idiot


----------



## Toddsterpatriot

haissem123 said:


> Toddsterpatriot said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rickm19 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Toddsterpatriot said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rickm19 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Flopper said:
> 
> 
> 
> The stock market was created for the 1%, not the 99%. Over the years we made the market a safer place for the public by eliminating a lot of unfair practices but the risks of investing are still there and the 1% will always have advantages over the 99%.
> 
> 
> 
> That is my point. It was created by the wealthy manipulators so they had an easier to invest the money, that they already had, to make more. Now I have never paid attention to it because I don't agree with how and why it was created. But since almost every hard working American is invested in it in one way or another I have become interested in it because I do care about the people and unless you actually pay attention to it over the course of a lifetime a 401K is not very beneficial to ones just contributing out of their pay checks. Now most of us are starting to see how corrupt it is and many people want a revolution, which I don't think is the key to anything. Now correct me if I am wrong but this is the stock market in a nutshell.... A guy with no money, due to being controlled by the finical aspect of the world, has a great idea for a business that can help others and change lives. So without the money he turns to the men with the money and signs a contract so that man can "help" him. So basically that contract forms a publicly traded business so others can "benefit" from that companies growth. Now obviously there are different ways to fund a startup campaign so the business would not be publicly traded but if that man making the contract wants it there it will be. So with one simple little transaction the man with the money simply makes more money by doing nothing as long as that company flourishes. So there is the risk. But what most people don't see is how that contract cuts into a businesses profits and takes away from the hard working people who are sitting there making that money for them. While the big man on top uses that money that he really didn't need to begin with to vest in other things and simply using his mind to control the profits he makes. Now if you are in that one percent I applaud you. But I really think it is time to stop looking at how much money can be made and start looking at how we can make this world more sustainable and stop dumping money into houses that have so much room it could house and sustain 20 families. Think about the energy consumption it takes and chain effect that is has on humanity. Most of the one percenters believe in population control from what I understand. We don't need that, we just need better investing and more economical sustainability. Only God has the right to deem who lives and who dies. And if you think Satain is the true God well im sure you will not appreciate his slavery when your time on this earth is done and over with. See God didn't forbid eve to eat from the tree of knowledge to hold her back. He simply did it to test her because he knows that without him, knowledge can the be fruit of all evil.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> * I do care about the people and unless you actually pay attention to it over the course of a lifetime a 401K is not very beneficial to ones just contributing out of their pay checks.*
> 
> Bullshit.
> 
> * Now most of us are starting to see how corrupt it is and many people want a revolution,*
> 
> Just the idiots.
> 
> In the future, break your stupid rants into paragraphs. You look less crazy that way.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Don't call Bullshit without backup. It happened in 1929 and again in 2009. That is a 80 year cycle where anyone deeply vested at a high age lost out.
> 
> Ahh see you call them idiots. Me I see them as the good hard working Americans who are tired of making crap while they make the rich richer and getting 30% of their checks taken by the government. The idiots are the one too naïve to see what really goes on behind closed doors.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> *Ahh see you call them idiots.*
> 
> Yes, people who think we need a revolution because of Wall Street are idiots.
> 
> *and getting 30% of their checks taken by the government.*
> 
> You don't think that's a good investment for your earnings? LOL!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> the looting of wealth by a few at any times hurts us all through out generations you fn idiot
Click to expand...

 
I agree, the government should stop looting our wealth.


----------



## william the wie

rickm19 said:


> Toddsterpatriot said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rickm19 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Flopper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> haissem123 said:
> 
> 
> 
> it was supposed to be good but mankind's greed took over as usual. Now it's just a corrupt house of cards continually collapsing upon us all. Time to do away with it. 911 was God turning over the corrupt tables in his house. You are investing in buying and selling other peoples lives to the lowest bidder. no good can come from that. ou have done unto others and now it's being done unto us all and it doesn't seem right all of a sudden. lol. kill all the goldmen sacking your retirement funds you are now forced to invest in their corrupt markets. it's texas holdem on the short stack and worse. the market can and is nothing but manipulation and lies for a few to own the many.
> 
> 
> 
> The stock market was created for the 1%, not the 99%. Over the years we made the market a safer place for the public by eliminating a lot of unfair practices but the risks of investing are still there and the 1% will always have advantages over the 99%.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> That is my point. It was created by the wealthy manipulators so they had an easier to invest the money, that they already had, to make more. Now I have never paid attention to it because I don't agree with how and why it was created. But since almost every hard working American is invested in it in one way or another I have become interested in it because I do care about the people and unless you actually pay attention to it over the course of a lifetime a 401K is not very beneficial to ones just contributing out of their pay checks. Now most of us are starting to see how corrupt it is and many people want a revolution, which I don't think is the key to anything. Now correct me if I am wrong but this is the stock market in a nutshell.... A guy with no money, due to being controlled by the finical aspect of the world, has a great idea for a business that can help others and change lives. So without the money he turns to the men with the money and signs a contract so that man can "help" him. So basically that contract forms a publicly traded business so others can "benefit" from that companies growth. Now obviously there are different ways to fund a startup campaign so the business would not be publicly traded but if that man making the contract wants it there it will be. So with one simple little transaction the man with the money simply makes more money by doing nothing as long as that company flourishes. So there is the risk. But what most people don't see is how that contract cuts into a businesses profits and takes away from the hard working people who are sitting there making that money for them. While the big man on top uses that money that he really didn't need to begin with to vest in other things and simply using his mind to control the profits he makes. Now if you are in that one percent I applaud you. But I really think it is time to stop looking at how much money can be made and start looking at how we can make this world more sustainable and stop dumping money into houses that have so much room it could house and sustain 20 families. Think about the energy consumption it takes and chain effect that is has on humanity. Most of the one percenters believe in population control from what I understand. We don't need that, we just need better investing and more economical sustainability. Only God has the right to deem who lives and who dies. And if you think Satain is the true God well im sure you will not appreciate his slavery when your time on this earth is done and over with. See God didn't forbid eve to eat from the tree of knowledge to hold her back. He simply did it to test her because he knows that without him, knowledge can the be fruit of all evil.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> * I do care about the people and unless you actually pay attention to it over the course of a lifetime a 401K is not very beneficial to ones just contributing out of their pay checks.*
> 
> Bullshit.
> 
> * Now most of us are starting to see how corrupt it is and many people want a revolution,*
> 
> Just the idiots.
> 
> In the future, break your stupid rants into paragraphs. You look less crazy that way.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Don't call Bullshit without backup. It happened in 1929 and again in 2009. That is a 80 year cycle where anyone deeply vested at a high age lost out.
> 
> Ahh see you call them idiots. Me I see them as the good hard working Americans who are tired of making crap while they make the rich richer and getting 30% of their checks taken by the government. The idiots are the one too naïve to see what really goes on behind closed doors.
Click to expand...

Actually the best investment record vs. the Dow happened 1926-56, Graham-Newman beat the DJIA 4 to 1 over that time frame. Templeton did nearly as well. A balanced portfolio was also profitable. 1929-33 saw one of the ten greatest bond rallies ever.

Also neither 29 nor 08 was a patch on 87.


----------



## haissem123

william the wie said:


> rickm19 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Toddsterpatriot said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rickm19 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Flopper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> haissem123 said:
> 
> 
> 
> it was supposed to be good but mankind's greed took over as usual. Now it's just a corrupt house of cards continually collapsing upon us all. Time to do away with it. 911 was God turning over the corrupt tables in his house. You are investing in buying and selling other peoples lives to the lowest bidder. no good can come from that. ou have done unto others and now it's being done unto us all and it doesn't seem right all of a sudden. lol. kill all the goldmen sacking your retirement funds you are now forced to invest in their corrupt markets. it's texas holdem on the short stack and worse. the market can and is nothing but manipulation and lies for a few to own the many.
> 
> 
> 
> The stock market was created for the 1%, not the 99%. Over the years we made the market a safer place for the public by eliminating a lot of unfair practices but the risks of investing are still there and the 1% will always have advantages over the 99%.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> That is my point. It was created by the wealthy manipulators so they had an easier to invest the money, that they already had, to make more. Now I have never paid attention to it because I don't agree with how and why it was created. But since almost every hard working American is invested in it in one way or another I have become interested in it because I do care about the people and unless you actually pay attention to it over the course of a lifetime a 401K is not very beneficial to ones just contributing out of their pay checks. Now most of us are starting to see how corrupt it is and many people want a revolution, which I don't think is the key to anything. Now correct me if I am wrong but this is the stock market in a nutshell.... A guy with no money, due to being controlled by the finical aspect of the world, has a great idea for a business that can help others and change lives. So without the money he turns to the men with the money and signs a contract so that man can "help" him. So basically that contract forms a publicly traded business so others can "benefit" from that companies growth. Now obviously there are different ways to fund a startup campaign so the business would not be publicly traded but if that man making the contract wants it there it will be. So with one simple little transaction the man with the money simply makes more money by doing nothing as long as that company flourishes. So there is the risk. But what most people don't see is how that contract cuts into a businesses profits and takes away from the hard working people who are sitting there making that money for them. While the big man on top uses that money that he really didn't need to begin with to vest in other things and simply using his mind to control the profits he makes. Now if you are in that one percent I applaud you. But I really think it is time to stop looking at how much money can be made and start looking at how we can make this world more sustainable and stop dumping money into houses that have so much room it could house and sustain 20 families. Think about the energy consumption it takes and chain effect that is has on humanity. Most of the one percenters believe in population control from what I understand. We don't need that, we just need better investing and more economical sustainability. Only God has the right to deem who lives and who dies. And if you think Satain is the true God well im sure you will not appreciate his slavery when your time on this earth is done and over with. See God didn't forbid eve to eat from the tree of knowledge to hold her back. He simply did it to test her because he knows that without him, knowledge can the be fruit of all evil.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> * I do care about the people and unless you actually pay attention to it over the course of a lifetime a 401K is not very beneficial to ones just contributing out of their pay checks.*
> 
> Bullshit.
> 
> * Now most of us are starting to see how corrupt it is and many people want a revolution,*
> 
> Just the idiots.
> 
> In the future, break your stupid rants into paragraphs. You look less crazy that way.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Don't call Bullshit without backup. It happened in 1929 and again in 2009. That is a 80 year cycle where anyone deeply vested at a high age lost out.
> 
> Ahh see you call them idiots. Me I see them as the good hard working Americans who are tired of making crap while they make the rich richer and getting 30% of their checks taken by the government. The idiots are the one too naïve to see what really goes on behind closed doors.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Actually the best investment record vs. the Dow happened 1926-56, Graham-Newman beat the DJIA 4 to 1 over that time frame. Templeton did nearly as well. A balanced portfolio was also profitable. 1929-33 saw one of the ten greatest bond rallies ever.
> 
> Also neither 29 nor 08 was a patch on 87.
Click to expand...

are you sure about that? 08 was pretty bad globally and really isn't over yet. bandaids are holding our economic world together for a few more minutes it seems


----------



## Toddsterpatriot

*Also neither 29 nor 08 was a patch on 87.*

What do you mean?


----------



## william the wie

haissem123 said:


> william the wie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rickm19 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Toddsterpatriot said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rickm19 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Flopper said:
> 
> 
> 
> The stock market was created for the 1%, not the 99%. Over the years we made the market a safer place for the public by eliminating a lot of unfair practices but the risks of investing are still there and the 1% will always have advantages over the 99%.
> 
> 
> 
> That is my point. It was created by the wealthy manipulators so they had an easier to invest the money, that they already had, to make more. Now I have never paid attention to it because I don't agree with how and why it was created. But since almost every hard working American is invested in it in one way or another I have become interested in it because I do care about the people and unless you actually pay attention to it over the course of a lifetime a 401K is not very beneficial to ones just contributing out of their pay checks. Now most of us are starting to see how corrupt it is and many people want a revolution, which I don't think is the key to anything. Now correct me if I am wrong but this is the stock market in a nutshell.... A guy with no money, due to being controlled by the finical aspect of the world, has a great idea for a business that can help others and change lives. So without the money he turns to the men with the money and signs a contract so that man can "help" him. So basically that contract forms a publicly traded business so others can "benefit" from that companies growth. Now obviously there are different ways to fund a startup campaign so the business would not be publicly traded but if that man making the contract wants it there it will be. So with one simple little transaction the man with the money simply makes more money by doing nothing as long as that company flourishes. So there is the risk. But what most people don't see is how that contract cuts into a businesses profits and takes away from the hard working people who are sitting there making that money for them. While the big man on top uses that money that he really didn't need to begin with to vest in other things and simply using his mind to control the profits he makes. Now if you are in that one percent I applaud you. But I really think it is time to stop looking at how much money can be made and start looking at how we can make this world more sustainable and stop dumping money into houses that have so much room it could house and sustain 20 families. Think about the energy consumption it takes and chain effect that is has on humanity. Most of the one percenters believe in population control from what I understand. We don't need that, we just need better investing and more economical sustainability. Only God has the right to deem who lives and who dies. And if you think Satain is the true God well im sure you will not appreciate his slavery when your time on this earth is done and over with. See God didn't forbid eve to eat from the tree of knowledge to hold her back. He simply did it to test her because he knows that without him, knowledge can the be fruit of all evil.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> * I do care about the people and unless you actually pay attention to it over the course of a lifetime a 401K is not very beneficial to ones just contributing out of their pay checks.*
> 
> Bullshit.
> 
> * Now most of us are starting to see how corrupt it is and many people want a revolution,*
> 
> Just the idiots.
> 
> In the future, break your stupid rants into paragraphs. You look less crazy that way.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Don't call Bullshit without backup. It happened in 1929 and again in 2009. That is a 80 year cycle where anyone deeply vested at a high age lost out.
> 
> Ahh see you call them idiots. Me I see them as the good hard working Americans who are tired of making crap while they make the rich richer and getting 30% of their checks taken by the government. The idiots are the one too naïve to see what really goes on behind closed doors.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Actually the best investment record vs. the Dow happened 1926-56, Graham-Newman beat the DJIA 4 to 1 over that time frame. Templeton did nearly as well. A balanced portfolio was also profitable. 1929-33 saw one of the ten greatest bond rallies ever.
> 
> Also neither 29 nor 08 was a patch on 87.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> are you sure about that? 08 was pretty bad globally and really isn't over yet. bandaids are holding our economic world together for a few more minutes it seems
Click to expand...

Yeah, if you want proof just google but if you really want to understand the whys of how big it was I found the great courses "Chaos" DVD(s) very useful.

Basically the inventors of portfolio insurance and dynamic hedging ignored uncertainty of conditions and worked at cross purposes in 87 to create a more than 20 SD move. In 1998, The Nobel prize winners at Long Term Capital Management almost brought on 2008 early. As a non-institutional investor you can use portfolio insurance. Even though the cash flow isn't much it is positive.


----------



## william the wie

Toddsterpatriot said:


> *Also neither 29 nor 08 was a patch on 87.*
> 
> What do you mean?


If memory serves 87 was just shy of a 30 SD move downward in something like less than 120 hours.  1929-31 had multiple rallies over nearly two years where course corrections were possible. 08 has seen multiple rallies to new record territories and the October 08- March 09 decline was so mild that portfolio insurance could reduce losses 75-90%.

Does that show the difference?


----------



## william the wie

haissem123 said:


> william the wie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rickm19 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Toddsterpatriot said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rickm19 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Flopper said:
> 
> 
> 
> The stock market was created for the 1%, not the 99%. Over the years we made the market a safer place for the public by eliminating a lot of unfair practices but the risks of investing are still there and the 1% will always have advantages over the 99%.
> 
> 
> 
> That is my point. It was created by the wealthy manipulators so they had an easier to invest the money, that they already had, to make more. Now I have never paid attention to it because I don't agree with how and why it was created. But since almost every hard working American is invested in it in one way or another I have become interested in it because I do care about the people and unless you actually pay attention to it over the course of a lifetime a 401K is not very beneficial to ones just contributing out of their pay checks. Now most of us are starting to see how corrupt it is and many people want a revolution, which I don't think is the key to anything. Now correct me if I am wrong but this is the stock market in a nutshell.... A guy with no money, due to being controlled by the finical aspect of the world, has a great idea for a business that can help others and change lives. So without the money he turns to the men with the money and signs a contract so that man can "help" him. So basically that contract forms a publicly traded business so others can "benefit" from that companies growth. Now obviously there are different ways to fund a startup campaign so the business would not be publicly traded but if that man making the contract wants it there it will be. So with one simple little transaction the man with the money simply makes more money by doing nothing as long as that company flourishes. So there is the risk. But what most people don't see is how that contract cuts into a businesses profits and takes away from the hard working people who are sitting there making that money for them. While the big man on top uses that money that he really didn't need to begin with to vest in other things and simply using his mind to control the profits he makes. Now if you are in that one percent I applaud you. But I really think it is time to stop looking at how much money can be made and start looking at how we can make this world more sustainable and stop dumping money into houses that have so much room it could house and sustain 20 families. Think about the energy consumption it takes and chain effect that is has on humanity. Most of the one percenters believe in population control from what I understand. We don't need that, we just need better investing and more economical sustainability. Only God has the right to deem who lives and who dies. And if you think Satain is the true God well im sure you will not appreciate his slavery when your time on this earth is done and over with. See God didn't forbid eve to eat from the tree of knowledge to hold her back. He simply did it to test her because he knows that without him, knowledge can the be fruit of all evil.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> * I do care about the people and unless you actually pay attention to it over the course of a lifetime a 401K is not very beneficial to ones just contributing out of their pay checks.*
> 
> Bullshit.
> 
> * Now most of us are starting to see how corrupt it is and many people want a revolution,*
> 
> Just the idiots.
> 
> In the future, break your stupid rants into paragraphs. You look less crazy that way.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Don't call Bullshit without backup. It happened in 1929 and again in 2009. That is a 80 year cycle where anyone deeply vested at a high age lost out.
> 
> Ahh see you call them idiots. Me I see them as the good hard working Americans who are tired of making crap while they make the rich richer and getting 30% of their checks taken by the government. The idiots are the one too naïve to see what really goes on behind closed doors.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Actually the best investment record vs. the Dow happened 1926-56, Graham-Newman beat the DJIA 4 to 1 over that time frame. Templeton did nearly as well. A balanced portfolio was also profitable. 1929-33 saw one of the ten greatest bond rallies ever.
> 
> Also neither 29 nor 08 was a patch on 87.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> are you sure about that? 08 was pretty bad globally and really isn't over yet. bandaids are holding our economic world together for a few more minutes it seems
Click to expand...


I would call 08 an aftershock of 87, 1998 and 2000. My investing rules of thumb are:

Don't try to outsmart anybody, they'll do it to themselves. 

If you can't explain your strategy to the village idiot it's too complicated.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot

william the wie said:


> Toddsterpatriot said:
> 
> 
> 
> *Also neither 29 nor 08 was a patch on 87.*
> 
> What do you mean?
> 
> 
> 
> If memory serves 87 was just shy of a 30 SD move downward in something like less than 120 hours.  1929-31 had multiple rallies over nearly two years where course corrections were possible. 08 has seen multiple rallies to new record territories and the October 08- March 09 decline was so mild that portfolio insurance could reduce losses 75-90%.
> 
> Does that show the difference?
Click to expand...

 
Gotcha.
I was thinking more in terms of time it took to hit new highs.


----------



## Flopper

rickm19 said:


> Flopper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> haissem123 said:
> 
> 
> 
> it was supposed to be good but mankind's greed took over as usual. Now it's just a corrupt house of cards continually collapsing upon us all. Time to do away with it. 911 was God turning over the corrupt tables in his house. You are investing in buying and selling other peoples lives to the lowest bidder. no good can come from that. ou have done unto others and now it's being done unto us all and it doesn't seem right all of a sudden. lol. kill all the goldmen sacking your retirement funds you are now forced to invest in their corrupt markets. it's texas holdem on the short stack and worse. the market can and is nothing but manipulation and lies for a few to own the many.
> 
> 
> 
> The stock market was created for the 1%, not the 99%. Over the years we made the market a safer place for the public by eliminating a lot of unfair practices but the risks of investing are still there and the 1% will always have advantages over the 99%.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> That is my point. It was created by the wealthy manipulators so they had an easier to invest the money, that they already had, to make more. Now I have never paid attention to it because I don't agree with how and why it was created. But since almost every hard working American is invested in it in one way or another I have become interested in it because I do care about the people and unless you actually pay attention to it over the course of a lifetime a 401K is not very beneficial to ones just contributing out of their pay checks. Now most of us are starting to see how corrupt it is and many people want a revolution, which I don't think is the key to anything. Now correct me if I am wrong but this is the stock market in a nutshell.... A guy with no money, due to being controlled by the finical aspect of the world, has a great idea for a business that can help others and change lives. So without the money he turns to the men with the money and signs a contract so that man can "help" him. So basically that contract forms a publicly traded business so others can "benefit" from that companies growth. Now obviously there are different ways to fund a startup campaign so the business would not be publicly traded but if that man making the contract wants it there it will be. So with one simple little transaction the man with the money simply makes more money by doing nothing as long as that company flourishes. So there is the risk. But what most people don't see is how that contract cuts into a businesses profits and takes away from the hard working people who are sitting there making that money for them. While the big man on top uses that money that he really didn't need to begin with to vest in other things and simply using his mind to control the profits he makes. Now if you are in that one percent I applaud you. But I really think it is time to stop looking at how much money can be made and start looking at how we can make this world more sustainable and stop dumping money into houses that have so much room it could house and sustain 20 families. Think about the energy consumption it takes and chain effect that is has on humanity. Most of the one percenters believe in population control from what I understand. We don't need that, we just need better investing and more economical sustainability. Only God has the right to deem who lives and who dies. And if you think Satain is the true God well im sure you will not appreciate his slavery when your time on this earth is done and over with. See God didn't forbid eve to eat from the tree of knowledge to hold her back. He simply did it to test her because he knows that without him, knowledge can the be fruit of all evil.
Click to expand...

The stock market like all markets are based on the desire to accumulate wealth.  Now that may be bad in your opinion but it's a fact of life. A market for shares of an enterprise is necessary for free enterprise to grow.  Without it, investors would be reluctant to invest and without those investments the economic growth we have seen in this country and the world would have been impossible.

I disagree with your statement that the stock market is corrupt.  Full disclosure is required by law for publicly traded stocks.  Everything you need to know about a company to make a decision is there.  You won't find that at your local used car lot or when buy a house or sign a lease or buy into a local business. Sure there are unscrupulous people in the securities industry but there are unscrupulous people in every business endeavor. Every year there're millions of complaints by people being swindled and treated unfairly by businesses and yet few of those complaints are leveled at the securities industry.  However, when a broker or investment manger steals from his clients, it's in every newspaper in the country.  And everyone who lost his shirt in the market trying to make a quick buck declares it's all a big swindle.


----------



## william the wie

Toddsterpatriot said:


> william the wie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Toddsterpatriot said:
> 
> 
> 
> *Also neither 29 nor 08 was a patch on 87.*
> 
> What do you mean?
> 
> 
> 
> If memory serves 87 was just shy of a 30 SD move downward in something like less than 120 hours.  1929-31 had multiple rallies over nearly two years where course corrections were possible. 08 has seen multiple rallies to new record territories and the October 08- March 09 decline was so mild that portfolio insurance could reduce losses 75-90%.
> 
> Does that show the difference?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Gotcha.
> I was thinking more in terms of time it took to hit new highs.
Click to expand...


yeah that is the partyline based on the efficient market hypothesis which is in its sixth or seventh iteration. EMF goes back to at least the Mississippi Scheme of the early 1700s and is based on the idea that investors and speculators are irrational in their assessment of risk/reward based on different market conditions.


----------



## william the wie

Flopper said:


> rickm19 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Flopper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> haissem123 said:
> 
> 
> 
> it was supposed to be good but mankind's greed took over as usual. Now it's just a corrupt house of cards continually collapsing upon us all. Time to do away with it. 911 was God turning over the corrupt tables in his house. You are investing in buying and selling other peoples lives to the lowest bidder. no good can come from that. ou have done unto others and now it's being done unto us all and it doesn't seem right all of a sudden. lol. kill all the goldmen sacking your retirement funds you are now forced to invest in their corrupt markets. it's texas holdem on the short stack and worse. the market can and is nothing but manipulation and lies for a few to own the many.
> 
> 
> 
> The stock market was created for the 1%, not the 99%. Over the years we made the market a safer place for the public by eliminating a lot of unfair practices but the risks of investing are still there and the 1% will always have advantages over the 99%.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> That is my point. It was created by the wealthy manipulators so they had an easier to invest the money, that they already had, to make more. Now I have never paid attention to it because I don't agree with how and why it was created. But since almost every hard working American is invested in it in one way or another I have become interested in it because I do care about the people and unless you actually pay attention to it over the course of a lifetime a 401K is not very beneficial to ones just contributing out of their pay checks. Now most of us are starting to see how corrupt it is and many people want a revolution, which I don't think is the key to anything. Now correct me if I am wrong but this is the stock market in a nutshell.... A guy with no money, due to being controlled by the finical aspect of the world, has a great idea for a business that can help others and change lives. So without the money he turns to the men with the money and signs a contract so that man can "help" him. So basically that contract forms a publicly traded business so others can "benefit" from that companies growth. Now obviously there are different ways to fund a startup campaign so the business would not be publicly traded but if that man making the contract wants it there it will be. So with one simple little transaction the man with the money simply makes more money by doing nothing as long as that company flourishes. So there is the risk. But what most people don't see is how that contract cuts into a businesses profits and takes away from the hard working people who are sitting there making that money for them. While the big man on top uses that money that he really didn't need to begin with to vest in other things and simply using his mind to control the profits he makes. Now if you are in that one percent I applaud you. But I really think it is time to stop looking at how much money can be made and start looking at how we can make this world more sustainable and stop dumping money into houses that have so much room it could house and sustain 20 families. Think about the energy consumption it takes and chain effect that is has on humanity. Most of the one percenters believe in population control from what I understand. We don't need that, we just need better investing and more economical sustainability. Only God has the right to deem who lives and who dies. And if you think Satain is the true God well im sure you will not appreciate his slavery when your time on this earth is done and over with. See God didn't forbid eve to eat from the tree of knowledge to hold her back. He simply did it to test her because he knows that without him, knowledge can the be fruit of all evil.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The stock market like all markets are based on the desire to accumulate wealth.  Now that may be bad in your opinion but it's a fact of life. A market for shares of an enterprise is necessary for free enterprise to grow.  Without it, investors would be reluctant to invest and without those investments the economic growth we have seen in this country and the world would have been impossible.
> 
> I disagree with your statement that the stock market is corrupt.  Full disclosure is required by law for publicly traded stocks.  Everything you need to know about a company to make a decision is there.  You won't find that at your local used car lot or when buy a house or sign a lease or buy into a local business. Sure there are unscrupulous people in the securities industry but there are unscrupulous people in every business endeavor. Every year there're millions of complaints by people being swindled and treated unfairly by businesses and yet few of those complaints are leveled at the securities industry.  However, when a broker or investment manger steals from his clients, it's in every newspaper in the country.  And everyone who lost his shirt in the market trying to make a quick buck declares it's all a big swindle.
Click to expand...

As Mark Twain, I think it was, noted, "Dog bites man is not news. Man bites dog is news." And you are right a good investment strategy is designed to make watching grass growing seem exciting.


----------



## Flopper

Toddsterpatriot said:


> rickm19 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Toddsterpatriot said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rickm19 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Flopper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> haissem123 said:
> 
> 
> 
> it was supposed to be good but mankind's greed took over as usual. Now it's just a corrupt house of cards continually collapsing upon us all. Time to do away with it. 911 was God turning over the corrupt tables in his house. You are investing in buying and selling other peoples lives to the lowest bidder. no good can come from that. ou have done unto others and now it's being done unto us all and it doesn't seem right all of a sudden. lol. kill all the goldmen sacking your retirement funds you are now forced to invest in their corrupt markets. it's texas holdem on the short stack and worse. the market can and is nothing but manipulation and lies for a few to own the many.
> 
> 
> 
> The stock market was created for the 1%, not the 99%. Over the years we made the market a safer place for the public by eliminating a lot of unfair practices but the risks of investing are still there and the 1% will always have advantages over the 99%.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> That is my point. It was created by the wealthy manipulators so they had an easier to invest the money, that they already had, to make more. Now I have never paid attention to it because I don't agree with how and why it was created. But since almost every hard working American is invested in it in one way or another I have become interested in it because I do care about the people and unless you actually pay attention to it over the course of a lifetime a 401K is not very beneficial to ones just contributing out of their pay checks. Now most of us are starting to see how corrupt it is and many people want a revolution, which I don't think is the key to anything. Now correct me if I am wrong but this is the stock market in a nutshell.... A guy with no money, due to being controlled by the finical aspect of the world, has a great idea for a business that can help others and change lives. So without the money he turns to the men with the money and signs a contract so that man can "help" him. So basically that contract forms a publicly traded business so others can "benefit" from that companies growth. Now obviously there are different ways to fund a startup campaign so the business would not be publicly traded but if that man making the contract wants it there it will be. So with one simple little transaction the man with the money simply makes more money by doing nothing as long as that company flourishes. So there is the risk. But what most people don't see is how that contract cuts into a businesses profits and takes away from the hard working people who are sitting there making that money for them. While the big man on top uses that money that he really didn't need to begin with to vest in other things and simply using his mind to control the profits he makes. Now if you are in that one percent I applaud you. But I really think it is time to stop looking at how much money can be made and start looking at how we can make this world more sustainable and stop dumping money into houses that have so much room it could house and sustain 20 families. Think about the energy consumption it takes and chain effect that is has on humanity. Most of the one percenters believe in population control from what I understand. We don't need that, we just need better investing and more economical sustainability. Only God has the right to deem who lives and who dies. And if you think Satain is the true God well im sure you will not appreciate his slavery when your time on this earth is done and over with. See God didn't forbid eve to eat from the tree of knowledge to hold her back. He simply did it to test her because he knows that without him, knowledge can the be fruit of all evil.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> * I do care about the people and unless you actually pay attention to it over the course of a lifetime a 401K is not very beneficial to ones just contributing out of their pay checks.*
> 
> Bullshit.
> 
> * Now most of us are starting to see how corrupt it is and many people want a revolution,*
> 
> Just the idiots.
> 
> In the future, break your stupid rants into paragraphs. You look less crazy that way.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Don't call Bullshit without backup. It happened in 1929 and again in 2009. That is a 80 year cycle where anyone deeply vested at a high age lost out.
> 
> Ahh see you call them idiots. Me I see them as the good hard working Americans who are tired of making crap while they make the rich richer and getting 30% of their checks taken by the government. The idiots are the one too naïve to see what really goes on behind closed doors.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> *
> It happened in 1929 and again in 2009.*
> 
> What happened in 1929 and 2009 that would harm someone that invested in their 401K over the course of their lifetime?
Click to expand...

The average 401K investor who stuck to his guns and refused to sell out and continued investing has more than recovered his loses.  The right 401K is a great deal, a government tax break plus contributions from the employer.  However, some 401Ks are pretty crappy.  People should consider the employer's 401K along with other compensation before accepting a job.  I had one once that took 10 years to become vested, had high fees, and poor management.  Yet, I still got a decent return.


----------



## Flopper

william the wie said:


> Flopper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rickm19 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Flopper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> haissem123 said:
> 
> 
> 
> it was supposed to be good but mankind's greed took over as usual. Now it's just a corrupt house of cards continually collapsing upon us all. Time to do away with it. 911 was God turning over the corrupt tables in his house. You are investing in buying and selling other peoples lives to the lowest bidder. no good can come from that. ou have done unto others and now it's being done unto us all and it doesn't seem right all of a sudden. lol. kill all the goldmen sacking your retirement funds you are now forced to invest in their corrupt markets. it's texas holdem on the short stack and worse. the market can and is nothing but manipulation and lies for a few to own the many.
> 
> 
> 
> The stock market was created for the 1%, not the 99%. Over the years we made the market a safer place for the public by eliminating a lot of unfair practices but the risks of investing are still there and the 1% will always have advantages over the 99%.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> That is my point. It was created by the wealthy manipulators so they had an easier to invest the money, that they already had, to make more. Now I have never paid attention to it because I don't agree with how and why it was created. But since almost every hard working American is invested in it in one way or another I have become interested in it because I do care about the people and unless you actually pay attention to it over the course of a lifetime a 401K is not very beneficial to ones just contributing out of their pay checks. Now most of us are starting to see how corrupt it is and many people want a revolution, which I don't think is the key to anything. Now correct me if I am wrong but this is the stock market in a nutshell.... A guy with no money, due to being controlled by the finical aspect of the world, has a great idea for a business that can help others and change lives. So without the money he turns to the men with the money and signs a contract so that man can "help" him. So basically that contract forms a publicly traded business so others can "benefit" from that companies growth. Now obviously there are different ways to fund a startup campaign so the business would not be publicly traded but if that man making the contract wants it there it will be. So with one simple little transaction the man with the money simply makes more money by doing nothing as long as that company flourishes. So there is the risk. But what most people don't see is how that contract cuts into a businesses profits and takes away from the hard working people who are sitting there making that money for them. While the big man on top uses that money that he really didn't need to begin with to vest in other things and simply using his mind to control the profits he makes. Now if you are in that one percent I applaud you. But I really think it is time to stop looking at how much money can be made and start looking at how we can make this world more sustainable and stop dumping money into houses that have so much room it could house and sustain 20 families. Think about the energy consumption it takes and chain effect that is has on humanity. Most of the one percenters believe in population control from what I understand. We don't need that, we just need better investing and more economical sustainability. Only God has the right to deem who lives and who dies. And if you think Satain is the true God well im sure you will not appreciate his slavery when your time on this earth is done and over with. See God didn't forbid eve to eat from the tree of knowledge to hold her back. He simply did it to test her because he knows that without him, knowledge can the be fruit of all evil.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The stock market like all markets are based on the desire to accumulate wealth.  Now that may be bad in your opinion but it's a fact of life. A market for shares of an enterprise is necessary for free enterprise to grow.  Without it, investors would be reluctant to invest and without those investments the economic growth we have seen in this country and the world would have been impossible.
> 
> I disagree with your statement that the stock market is corrupt.  Full disclosure is required by law for publicly traded stocks.  Everything you need to know about a company to make a decision is there.  You won't find that at your local used car lot or when buy a house or sign a lease or buy into a local business. Sure there are unscrupulous people in the securities industry but there are unscrupulous people in every business endeavor. Every year there're millions of complaints by people being swindled and treated unfairly by businesses and yet few of those complaints are leveled at the securities industry.  However, when a broker or investment manger steals from his clients, it's in every newspaper in the country.  And everyone who lost his shirt in the market trying to make a quick buck declares it's all a big swindle.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> As Mark Twain, I think it was, noted, "Dog bites man is not news. Man bites dog is news." And you are right a good investment strategy is designed to make watching grass growing seem exciting.
Click to expand...

I cringe every time I hear the phrase "playing the market":  What nonsense, successful investing is not a game.  It takes work, patience and the ability to make decisions based on logic, not fear and greed. Most people can't do that and should be in index funds or just stay out of the market..


----------



## Toddsterpatriot

Flopper said:


> Toddsterpatriot said:
> 
> 
> 
> The average 401K investor who stuck to his guns and refused to sell out and continued investing has more than recovered his loses.  The right 401K is a great deal, a government tax break plus contributions from the employer.  However, some 401Ks are pretty crappy.  People should consider the employer's 401K along with other compensation before accepting a job.  I had one once that took 10 years to become vested, had high fees, and poor management.  Yet, I still got a decent return.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *I had one once that took 10 years to become vested, had high fees, and poor management.*
> 
> You bet, crappy plans with low levels of assets can really get stuck with high fees.
> Consistent contributions, at least 10% a year, can go a long way to making sure you don't have
> to depend on the promises of politicians for your retirement. Whiners, like several on this thread,
> will always have someone else to blame for their retirement shortfalls.
Click to expand...


----------



## rickm19

Toddsterpatriot said:


> rickm19 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Toddsterpatriot said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rickm19 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Flopper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> haissem123 said:
> 
> 
> 
> it was supposed to be good but mankind's greed took over as usual. Now it's just a corrupt house of cards continually collapsing upon us all. Time to do away with it. 911 was God turning over the corrupt tables in his house. You are investing in buying and selling other peoples lives to the lowest bidder. no good can come from that. ou have done unto others and now it's being done unto us all and it doesn't seem right all of a sudden. lol. kill all the goldmen sacking your retirement funds you are now forced to invest in their corrupt markets. it's texas holdem on the short stack and worse. the market can and is nothing but manipulation and lies for a few to own the many.
> 
> 
> 
> The stock market was created for the 1%, not the 99%. Over the years we made the market a safer place for the public by eliminating a lot of unfair practices but the risks of investing are still there and the 1% will always have advantages over the 99%.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> That is my point. It was created by the wealthy manipulators so they had an easier to invest the money, that they already had, to make more. Now I have never paid attention to it because I don't agree with how and why it was created. But since almost every hard working American is invested in it in one way or another I have become interested in it because I do care about the people and unless you actually pay attention to it over the course of a lifetime a 401K is not very beneficial to ones just contributing out of their pay checks. Now most of us are starting to see how corrupt it is and many people want a revolution, which I don't think is the key to anything. Now correct me if I am wrong but this is the stock market in a nutshell.... A guy with no money, due to being controlled by the finical aspect of the world, has a great idea for a business that can help others and change lives. So without the money he turns to the men with the money and signs a contract so that man can "help" him. So basically that contract forms a publicly traded business so others can "benefit" from that companies growth. Now obviously there are different ways to fund a startup campaign so the business would not be publicly traded but if that man making the contract wants it there it will be. So with one simple little transaction the man with the money simply makes more money by doing nothing as long as that company flourishes. So there is the risk. But what most people don't see is how that contract cuts into a businesses profits and takes away from the hard working people who are sitting there making that money for them. While the big man on top uses that money that he really didn't need to begin with to vest in other things and simply using his mind to control the profits he makes. Now if you are in that one percent I applaud you. But I really think it is time to stop looking at how much money can be made and start looking at how we can make this world more sustainable and stop dumping money into houses that have so much room it could house and sustain 20 families. Think about the energy consumption it takes and chain effect that is has on humanity. Most of the one percenters believe in population control from what I understand. We don't need that, we just need better investing and more economical sustainability. Only God has the right to deem who lives and who dies. And if you think Satain is the true God well im sure you will not appreciate his slavery when your time on this earth is done and over with. See God didn't forbid eve to eat from the tree of knowledge to hold her back. He simply did it to test her because he knows that without him, knowledge can the be fruit of all evil.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> * I do care about the people and unless you actually pay attention to it over the course of a lifetime a 401K is not very beneficial to ones just contributing out of their pay checks.*
> 
> Bullshit.
> 
> * Now most of us are starting to see how corrupt it is and many people want a revolution,*
> 
> Just the idiots.
> 
> In the future, break your stupid rants into paragraphs. You look less crazy that way.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Don't call Bullshit without backup. It happened in 1929 and again in 2009. That is a 80 year cycle where anyone deeply vested at a high age lost out.
> 
> Ahh see you call them idiots. Me I see them as the good hard working Americans who are tired of making crap while they make the rich richer and getting 30% of their checks taken by the government. The idiots are the one too naïve to see what really goes on behind closed doors.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> *
> It happened in 1929 and again in 2009.*
> 
> What happened in 1929 and 2009 that would harm someone that invested in their 401K over the course of their lifetime?
Click to expand...

Umm the market crashed...


----------



## Toddsterpatriot

rickm19 said:


> Toddsterpatriot said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rickm19 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Toddsterpatriot said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rickm19 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Flopper said:
> 
> 
> 
> The stock market was created for the 1%, not the 99%. Over the years we made the market a safer place for the public by eliminating a lot of unfair practices but the risks of investing are still there and the 1% will always have advantages over the 99%.
> 
> 
> 
> That is my point. It was created by the wealthy manipulators so they had an easier to invest the money, that they already had, to make more. Now I have never paid attention to it because I don't agree with how and why it was created. But since almost every hard working American is invested in it in one way or another I have become interested in it because I do care about the people and unless you actually pay attention to it over the course of a lifetime a 401K is not very beneficial to ones just contributing out of their pay checks. Now most of us are starting to see how corrupt it is and many people want a revolution, which I don't think is the key to anything. Now correct me if I am wrong but this is the stock market in a nutshell.... A guy with no money, due to being controlled by the finical aspect of the world, has a great idea for a business that can help others and change lives. So without the money he turns to the men with the money and signs a contract so that man can "help" him. So basically that contract forms a publicly traded business so others can "benefit" from that companies growth. Now obviously there are different ways to fund a startup campaign so the business would not be publicly traded but if that man making the contract wants it there it will be. So with one simple little transaction the man with the money simply makes more money by doing nothing as long as that company flourishes. So there is the risk. But what most people don't see is how that contract cuts into a businesses profits and takes away from the hard working people who are sitting there making that money for them. While the big man on top uses that money that he really didn't need to begin with to vest in other things and simply using his mind to control the profits he makes. Now if you are in that one percent I applaud you. But I really think it is time to stop looking at how much money can be made and start looking at how we can make this world more sustainable and stop dumping money into houses that have so much room it could house and sustain 20 families. Think about the energy consumption it takes and chain effect that is has on humanity. Most of the one percenters believe in population control from what I understand. We don't need that, we just need better investing and more economical sustainability. Only God has the right to deem who lives and who dies. And if you think Satain is the true God well im sure you will not appreciate his slavery when your time on this earth is done and over with. See God didn't forbid eve to eat from the tree of knowledge to hold her back. He simply did it to test her because he knows that without him, knowledge can the be fruit of all evil.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> * I do care about the people and unless you actually pay attention to it over the course of a lifetime a 401K is not very beneficial to ones just contributing out of their pay checks.*
> 
> Bullshit.
> 
> * Now most of us are starting to see how corrupt it is and many people want a revolution,*
> 
> Just the idiots.
> 
> In the future, break your stupid rants into paragraphs. You look less crazy that way.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Don't call Bullshit without backup. It happened in 1929 and again in 2009. That is a 80 year cycle where anyone deeply vested at a high age lost out.
> 
> Ahh see you call them idiots. Me I see them as the good hard working Americans who are tired of making crap while they make the rich richer and getting 30% of their checks taken by the government. The idiots are the one too naïve to see what really goes on behind closed doors.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> *
> It happened in 1929 and again in 2009.*
> 
> What happened in 1929 and 2009 that would harm someone that invested in their 401K over the course of their lifetime?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Umm the market crashed...
Click to expand...

 
When? By how much?


----------



## rickm19

Flopper said:


> william the wie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Flopper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rickm19 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Flopper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> haissem123 said:
> 
> 
> 
> it was supposed to be good but mankind's greed took over as usual. Now it's just a corrupt house of cards continually collapsing upon us all. Time to do away with it. 911 was God turning over the corrupt tables in his house. You are investing in buying and selling other peoples lives to the lowest bidder. no good can come from that. ou have done unto others and now it's being done unto us all and it doesn't seem right all of a sudden. lol. kill all the goldmen sacking your retirement funds you are now forced to invest in their corrupt markets. it's texas holdem on the short stack and worse. the market can and is nothing but manipulation and lies for a few to own the many.
> 
> 
> 
> The stock market was created for the 1%, not the 99%. Over the years we made the market a safer place for the public by eliminating a lot of unfair practices but the risks of investing are still there and the 1% will always have advantages over the 99%.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> That is my point. It was created by the wealthy manipulators so they had an easier to invest the money, that they already had, to make more. Now I have never paid attention to it because I don't agree with how and why it was created. But since almost every hard working American is invested in it in one way or another I have become interested in it because I do care about the people and unless you actually pay attention to it over the course of a lifetime a 401K is not very beneficial to ones just contributing out of their pay checks. Now most of us are starting to see how corrupt it is and many people want a revolution, which I don't think is the key to anything. Now correct me if I am wrong but this is the stock market in a nutshell.... A guy with no money, due to being controlled by the finical aspect of the world, has a great idea for a business that can help others and change lives. So without the money he turns to the men with the money and signs a contract so that man can "help" him. So basically that contract forms a publicly traded business so others can "benefit" from that companies growth. Now obviously there are different ways to fund a startup campaign so the business would not be publicly traded but if that man making the contract wants it there it will be. So with one simple little transaction the man with the money simply makes more money by doing nothing as long as that company flourishes. So there is the risk. But what most people don't see is how that contract cuts into a businesses profits and takes away from the hard working people who are sitting there making that money for them. While the big man on top uses that money that he really didn't need to begin with to vest in other things and simply using his mind to control the profits he makes. Now if you are in that one percent I applaud you. But I really think it is time to stop looking at how much money can be made and start looking at how we can make this world more sustainable and stop dumping money into houses that have so much room it could house and sustain 20 families. Think about the energy consumption it takes and chain effect that is has on humanity. Most of the one percenters believe in population control from what I understand. We don't need that, we just need better investing and more economical sustainability. Only God has the right to deem who lives and who dies. And if you think Satain is the true God well im sure you will not appreciate his slavery when your time on this earth is done and over with. See God didn't forbid eve to eat from the tree of knowledge to hold her back. He simply did it to test her because he knows that without him, knowledge can the be fruit of all evil.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The stock market like all markets are based on the desire to accumulate wealth.  Now that may be bad in your opinion but it's a fact of life. A market for shares of an enterprise is necessary for free enterprise to grow.  Without it, investors would be reluctant to invest and without those investments the economic growth we have seen in this country and the world would have been impossible.
> 
> I disagree with your statement that the stock market is corrupt.  Full disclosure is required by law for publicly traded stocks.  Everything you need to know about a company to make a decision is there.  You won't find that at your local used car lot or when buy a house or sign a lease or buy into a local business. Sure there are unscrupulous people in the securities industry but there are unscrupulous people in every business endeavor. Every year there're millions of complaints by people being swindled and treated unfairly by businesses and yet few of those complaints are leveled at the securities industry.  However, when a broker or investment manger steals from his clients, it's in every newspaper in the country.  And everyone who lost his shirt in the market trying to make a quick buck declares it's all a big swindle.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> As Mark Twain, I think it was, noted, "Dog bites man is not news. Man bites dog is news." And you are right a good investment strategy is designed to make watching grass growing seem exciting.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I cringe every time I hear the phrase "playing the market":  What nonsense, successful investing is not a game.  It takes work, patience and the ability to make decisions based on logic, not fear and greed. Most people can't do that and should be in index funds or just stay out of the market..
Click to expand...

So do I and I feel like too many people do that in order to try to make a buck and most people refuse to the actual benefits that company contributes to the world. They see MONEY and that is all. I would love to have the money to invest in proper companies who contribute well to their employees but then again I don't think anyone should rely on INVESTING to make money. See the sad fact of the matter is no one can truly get ahead in life unless they own their own business or figure out a way to inadvertently or advertently scam others into giving them money. Money is the main source of all evil and until we figure out a way to work without it we are going to go up in flames in the not too distant future. Maybe not in your lifetime or mine and that is what people don't think about. Although I still have about 50 years to go and do not like he way things are looking for mankind. They only care what is done in their short time on this earth. You don't realize how many people are depressed and go off the deep end because they can barley survive in this financial world. Then again most people don't care or think about that cause they have all the money they'll ever need.


----------



## rickm19

Toddsterpatriot said:


> rickm19 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Toddsterpatriot said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rickm19 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Toddsterpatriot said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rickm19 said:
> 
> 
> 
> That is my point. It was created by the wealthy manipulators so they had an easier to invest the money, that they already had, to make more. Now I have never paid attention to it because I don't agree with how and why it was created. But since almost every hard working American is invested in it in one way or another I have become interested in it because I do care about the people and unless you actually pay attention to it over the course of a lifetime a 401K is not very beneficial to ones just contributing out of their pay checks. Now most of us are starting to see how corrupt it is and many people want a revolution, which I don't think is the key to anything. Now correct me if I am wrong but this is the stock market in a nutshell.... A guy with no money, due to being controlled by the finical aspect of the world, has a great idea for a business that can help others and change lives. So without the money he turns to the men with the money and signs a contract so that man can "help" him. So basically that contract forms a publicly traded business so others can "benefit" from that companies growth. Now obviously there are different ways to fund a startup campaign so the business would not be publicly traded but if that man making the contract wants it there it will be. So with one simple little transaction the man with the money simply makes more money by doing nothing as long as that company flourishes. So there is the risk. But what most people don't see is how that contract cuts into a businesses profits and takes away from the hard working people who are sitting there making that money for them. While the big man on top uses that money that he really didn't need to begin with to vest in other things and simply using his mind to control the profits he makes. Now if you are in that one percent I applaud you. But I really think it is time to stop looking at how much money can be made and start looking at how we can make this world more sustainable and stop dumping money into houses that have so much room it could house and sustain 20 families. Think about the energy consumption it takes and chain effect that is has on humanity. Most of the one percenters believe in population control from what I understand. We don't need that, we just need better investing and more economical sustainability. Only God has the right to deem who lives and who dies. And if you think Satain is the true God well im sure you will not appreciate his slavery when your time on this earth is done and over with. See God didn't forbid eve to eat from the tree of knowledge to hold her back. He simply did it to test her because he knows that without him, knowledge can the be fruit of all evil.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> * I do care about the people and unless you actually pay attention to it over the course of a lifetime a 401K is not very beneficial to ones just contributing out of their pay checks.*
> 
> Bullshit.
> 
> * Now most of us are starting to see how corrupt it is and many people want a revolution,*
> 
> Just the idiots.
> 
> In the future, break your stupid rants into paragraphs. You look less crazy that way.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Don't call Bullshit without backup. It happened in 1929 and again in 2009. That is a 80 year cycle where anyone deeply vested at a high age lost out.
> 
> Ahh see you call them idiots. Me I see them as the good hard working Americans who are tired of making crap while they make the rich richer and getting 30% of their checks taken by the government. The idiots are the one too naïve to see what really goes on behind closed doors.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> *
> It happened in 1929 and again in 2009.*
> 
> What happened in 1929 and 2009 that would harm someone that invested in their 401K over the course of their lifetime?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Umm the market crashed...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> When? By how much?
Click to expand...

Click expand lol. look like as a whole it lost about 55% of its value.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot

rickm19 said:


> Toddsterpatriot said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rickm19 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Toddsterpatriot said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rickm19 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Toddsterpatriot said:
> 
> 
> 
> * I do care about the people and unless you actually pay attention to it over the course of a lifetime a 401K is not very beneficial to ones just contributing out of their pay checks.*
> 
> Bullshit.
> 
> * Now most of us are starting to see how corrupt it is and many people want a revolution,*
> 
> Just the idiots.
> 
> In the future, break your stupid rants into paragraphs. You look less crazy that way.
> 
> 
> 
> Don't call Bullshit without backup. It happened in 1929 and again in 2009. That is a 80 year cycle where anyone deeply vested at a high age lost out.
> 
> Ahh see you call them idiots. Me I see them as the good hard working Americans who are tired of making crap while they make the rich richer and getting 30% of their checks taken by the government. The idiots are the one too naïve to see what really goes on behind closed doors.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> *
> It happened in 1929 and again in 2009.*
> 
> What happened in 1929 and 2009 that would harm someone that invested in their 401K over the course of their lifetime?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Umm the market crashed...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> When? By how much?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Click expand lol. look like as a whole it lost about 55% of its value.
Click to expand...

 
What lost 55%? When?


----------



## rickm19

Toddsterpatriot said:


> rickm19 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Toddsterpatriot said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rickm19 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Toddsterpatriot said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rickm19 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Don't call Bullshit without backup. It happened in 1929 and again in 2009. That is a 80 year cycle where anyone deeply vested at a high age lost out.
> 
> Ahh see you call them idiots. Me I see them as the good hard working Americans who are tired of making crap while they make the rich richer and getting 30% of their checks taken by the government. The idiots are the one too naïve to see what really goes on behind closed doors.
> 
> 
> 
> *
> It happened in 1929 and again in 2009.*
> 
> What happened in 1929 and 2009 that would harm someone that invested in their 401K over the course of their lifetime?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Umm the market crashed...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> When? By how much?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Click expand lol. look like as a whole it lost about 55% of its value.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> What lost 55%? When?
Click to expand...

Damn dude it is a thread. Quit being a pain lol. Would you like me to copy and paste like you do so you cut out words and only reply to what you want? Learn to EXPAND


----------



## Toddsterpatriot

rickm19 said:


> Toddsterpatriot said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rickm19 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Toddsterpatriot said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rickm19 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Toddsterpatriot said:
> 
> 
> 
> *
> It happened in 1929 and again in 2009.*
> 
> What happened in 1929 and 2009 that would harm someone that invested in their 401K over the course of their lifetime?
> 
> 
> 
> Umm the market crashed...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> When? By how much?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Click expand lol. look like as a whole it lost about 55% of its value.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> What lost 55%? When?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Damn dude it is a thread. Quit being a pain lol. Would you like me to copy and paste like you do so you cut out words and only reply to what you want? Learn to EXPAND
Click to expand...

 
Keep being non-specific. That way I can't respond to your claims. Idiot.


----------



## Flopper

rickm19 said:


> Flopper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> william the wie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Flopper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rickm19 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Flopper said:
> 
> 
> 
> The stock market was created for the 1%, not the 99%. Over the years we made the market a safer place for the public by eliminating a lot of unfair practices but the risks of investing are still there and the 1% will always have advantages over the 99%.
> 
> 
> 
> That is my point. It was created by the wealthy manipulators so they had an easier to invest the money, that they already had, to make more. Now I have never paid attention to it because I don't agree with how and why it was created. But since almost every hard working American is invested in it in one way or another I have become interested in it because I do care about the people and unless you actually pay attention to it over the course of a lifetime a 401K is not very beneficial to ones just contributing out of their pay checks. Now most of us are starting to see how corrupt it is and many people want a revolution, which I don't think is the key to anything. Now correct me if I am wrong but this is the stock market in a nutshell.... A guy with no money, due to being controlled by the finical aspect of the world, has a great idea for a business that can help others and change lives. So without the money he turns to the men with the money and signs a contract so that man can "help" him. So basically that contract forms a publicly traded business so others can "benefit" from that companies growth. Now obviously there are different ways to fund a startup campaign so the business would not be publicly traded but if that man making the contract wants it there it will be. So with one simple little transaction the man with the money simply makes more money by doing nothing as long as that company flourishes. So there is the risk. But what most people don't see is how that contract cuts into a businesses profits and takes away from the hard working people who are sitting there making that money for them. While the big man on top uses that money that he really didn't need to begin with to vest in other things and simply using his mind to control the profits he makes. Now if you are in that one percent I applaud you. But I really think it is time to stop looking at how much money can be made and start looking at how we can make this world more sustainable and stop dumping money into houses that have so much room it could house and sustain 20 families. Think about the energy consumption it takes and chain effect that is has on humanity. Most of the one percenters believe in population control from what I understand. We don't need that, we just need better investing and more economical sustainability. Only God has the right to deem who lives and who dies. And if you think Satain is the true God well im sure you will not appreciate his slavery when your time on this earth is done and over with. See God didn't forbid eve to eat from the tree of knowledge to hold her back. He simply did it to test her because he knows that without him, knowledge can the be fruit of all evil.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The stock market like all markets are based on the desire to accumulate wealth.  Now that may be bad in your opinion but it's a fact of life. A market for shares of an enterprise is necessary for free enterprise to grow.  Without it, investors would be reluctant to invest and without those investments the economic growth we have seen in this country and the world would have been impossible.
> 
> I disagree with your statement that the stock market is corrupt.  Full disclosure is required by law for publicly traded stocks.  Everything you need to know about a company to make a decision is there.  You won't find that at your local used car lot or when buy a house or sign a lease or buy into a local business. Sure there are unscrupulous people in the securities industry but there are unscrupulous people in every business endeavor. Every year there're millions of complaints by people being swindled and treated unfairly by businesses and yet few of those complaints are leveled at the securities industry.  However, when a broker or investment manger steals from his clients, it's in every newspaper in the country.  And everyone who lost his shirt in the market trying to make a quick buck declares it's all a big swindle.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> As Mark Twain, I think it was, noted, "Dog bites man is not news. Man bites dog is news." And you are right a good investment strategy is designed to make watching grass growing seem exciting.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I cringe every time I hear the phrase "playing the market":  What nonsense, successful investing is not a game.  It takes work, patience and the ability to make decisions based on logic, not fear and greed. Most people can't do that and should be in index funds or just stay out of the market..
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> So do I and I feel like too many people do that in order to try to make a buck and most people refuse to the actual benefits that company contributes to the world. They see MONEY and that is all. I would love to have the money to invest in proper companies who contribute well to their employees but then again I don't think anyone should rely on INVESTING to make money. See the sad fact of the matter is no one can truly get ahead in life unless they own their own business or figure out a way to inadvertently or advertently scam others into giving them money. Money is the main source of all evil and until we figure out a way to work without it we are going to go up in flames in the not too distant future. Maybe not in your lifetime or mine and that is what people don't think about. Although I still have about 50 years to go and do not like he way things are looking for mankind. They only care what is done in their short time on this earth. You don't realize how many people are depressed and go off the deep end because they can barley survive in this financial world. Then again most people don't care or think about that cause they have all the money they'll ever need.
Click to expand...

I have all the money I will ever need and yes I do realize how depressed you can be if you spend your life just fighting to survive.  I know because that was world I was born into. IMHO, most people are in that position because of bad decisions they made when they were young.  If you're young and poor and start a family before you're financial able to support it, then you will probably be poor your entire life and life will be a long fight for survival.   

It's people that are good or bad, not the stock market and not wealth..  The market is just another means of making money.  It's not for everyone.  Being wealthy is neither good nor bad.  It all depends on how you use your wealth.


----------



## rickm19

Toddsterpatriot said:


> rickm19 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Toddsterpatriot said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rickm19 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Toddsterpatriot said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rickm19 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Umm the market crashed...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> When? By how much?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Click expand lol. look like as a whole it lost about 55% of its value.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> What lost 55%? When?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Damn dude it is a thread. Quit being a pain lol. Would you like me to copy and paste like you do so you cut out words and only reply to what you want? Learn to EXPAND
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Keep being non-specific. That way I can't respond to your claims. Idiot.
Click to expand...

Keep trying to make yourself feel good bud. But if you knew how to do some research you would know I was referring to 2009 for the 55% and the total Dow drop in 1929 was 89%. Don't call me an idiot when you can to do research as well or hell if you already knew you would simply be able to respond.


----------



## rickm19

Flopper said:


> rickm19 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Flopper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> william the wie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Flopper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rickm19 said:
> 
> 
> 
> That is my point. It was created by the wealthy manipulators so they had an easier to invest the money, that they already had, to make more. Now I have never paid attention to it because I don't agree with how and why it was created. But since almost every hard working American is invested in it in one way or another I have become interested in it because I do care about the people and unless you actually pay attention to it over the course of a lifetime a 401K is not very beneficial to ones just contributing out of their pay checks. Now most of us are starting to see how corrupt it is and many people want a revolution, which I don't think is the key to anything. Now correct me if I am wrong but this is the stock market in a nutshell.... A guy with no money, due to being controlled by the finical aspect of the world, has a great idea for a business that can help others and change lives. So without the money he turns to the men with the money and signs a contract so that man can "help" him. So basically that contract forms a publicly traded business so others can "benefit" from that companies growth. Now obviously there are different ways to fund a startup campaign so the business would not be publicly traded but if that man making the contract wants it there it will be. So with one simple little transaction the man with the money simply makes more money by doing nothing as long as that company flourishes. So there is the risk. But what most people don't see is how that contract cuts into a businesses profits and takes away from the hard working people who are sitting there making that money for them. While the big man on top uses that money that he really didn't need to begin with to vest in other things and simply using his mind to control the profits he makes. Now if you are in that one percent I applaud you. But I really think it is time to stop looking at how much money can be made and start looking at how we can make this world more sustainable and stop dumping money into houses that have so much room it could house and sustain 20 families. Think about the energy consumption it takes and chain effect that is has on humanity. Most of the one percenters believe in population control from what I understand. We don't need that, we just need better investing and more economical sustainability. Only God has the right to deem who lives and who dies. And if you think Satain is the true God well im sure you will not appreciate his slavery when your time on this earth is done and over with. See God didn't forbid eve to eat from the tree of knowledge to hold her back. He simply did it to test her because he knows that without him, knowledge can the be fruit of all evil.
> 
> 
> 
> The stock market like all markets are based on the desire to accumulate wealth.  Now that may be bad in your opinion but it's a fact of life. A market for shares of an enterprise is necessary for free enterprise to grow.  Without it, investors would be reluctant to invest and without those investments the economic growth we have seen in this country and the world would have been impossible.
> 
> I disagree with your statement that the stock market is corrupt.  Full disclosure is required by law for publicly traded stocks.  Everything you need to know about a company to make a decision is there.  You won't find that at your local used car lot or when buy a house or sign a lease or buy into a local business. Sure there are unscrupulous people in the securities industry but there are unscrupulous people in every business endeavor. Every year there're millions of complaints by people being swindled and treated unfairly by businesses and yet few of those complaints are leveled at the securities industry.  However, when a broker or investment manger steals from his clients, it's in every newspaper in the country.  And everyone who lost his shirt in the market trying to make a quick buck declares it's all a big swindle.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> As Mark Twain, I think it was, noted, "Dog bites man is not news. Man bites dog is news." And you are right a good investment strategy is designed to make watching grass growing seem exciting.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I cringe every time I hear the phrase "playing the market":  What nonsense, successful investing is not a game.  It takes work, patience and the ability to make decisions based on logic, not fear and greed. Most people can't do that and should be in index funds or just stay out of the market..
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> So do I and I feel like too many people do that in order to try to make a buck and most people refuse to the actual benefits that company contributes to the world. They see MONEY and that is all. I would love to have the money to invest in proper companies who contribute well to their employees but then again I don't think anyone should rely on INVESTING to make money. See the sad fact of the matter is no one can truly get ahead in life unless they own their own business or figure out a way to inadvertently or advertently scam others into giving them money. Money is the main source of all evil and until we figure out a way to work without it we are going to go up in flames in the not too distant future. Maybe not in your lifetime or mine and that is what people don't think about. Although I still have about 50 years to go and do not like he way things are looking for mankind. They only care what is done in their short time on this earth. You don't realize how many people are depressed and go off the deep end because they can barley survive in this financial world. Then again most people don't care or think about that cause they have all the money they'll ever need.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I have all the money I will ever need and yes I do realize how depressed you can be if you spend your life just fighting to survive.  I know because that was world I was born into. IMHO, most people are in that position because of bad decisions they made when they were young.  If you're young and poor and start a family before you're financial able to support it, then you will probably be poor your entire life and life will be a long fight for survival.
> 
> It's people that are good or bad, not the stock market and not wealth..  The market is just another means of making money.  It's not for everyone.  Being wealthy is neither good nor bad.  It all depends on how you use your wealth.
Click to expand...

Yes people do make the wrong decisions. The thing about that is we grow up in a society now that has SOOO many avenues of approach. I know I had a hard time deciding because I can really do anything I put my mind too and then that just creates an overwhelming feeling of "am I doing the right thing?" Kids today have to vest so much money in schooling just to get a decent job.. They have to live the rest of their life in debt and learn to live of off that obtained information they had to pay so much for. So once they obtain that debt they are forced to work a career path that they sometimes come to figure out wasn't right for them.

See we live in a world based on the knowledge we can obtain and the skills we can perform. We are forced to make life long choices before our decision making skills are fully developed. Studies say that full development occurs between the ages of 24-28. With a world based on money people get stuck cause they are so consumed with having to make that money to survive while paying off student loans or raising children or just simply trying to survive cause they cannot handle society at its core. If they cant handle it is cause they have to put up with assholes, bullies, and people who just do not know how to be decent. 

Now due to all the corruption we have to live in litigious world that is so lawful that we cant scratch our ass without having to sign a paper that is usually one sided. That creates paranoia and people cant even be true friends anymore cause everyone is so worried about getting screwed over. Im not sure where exactly we went wrong but it happened in this decade and it is just going to get worse unless we turn things around.


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## william the wie

rickm19 said:


> Flopper said:
> 
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> rickm19 said:
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> Flopper said:
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> william the wie said:
> 
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> Flopper said:
> 
> 
> 
> The stock market like all markets are based on the desire to accumulate wealth.  Now that may be bad in your opinion but it's a fact of life. A market for shares of an enterprise is necessary for free enterprise to grow.  Without it, investors would be reluctant to invest and without those investments the economic growth we have seen in this country and the world would have been impossible.
> 
> I disagree with your statement that the stock market is corrupt.  Full disclosure is required by law for publicly traded stocks.  Everything you need to know about a company to make a decision is there.  You won't find that at your local used car lot or when buy a house or sign a lease or buy into a local business. Sure there are unscrupulous people in the securities industry but there are unscrupulous people in every business endeavor. Every year there're millions of complaints by people being swindled and treated unfairly by businesses and yet few of those complaints are leveled at the securities industry.  However, when a broker or investment manger steals from his clients, it's in every newspaper in the country.  And everyone who lost his shirt in the market trying to make a quick buck declares it's all a big swindle.
> 
> 
> 
> As Mark Twain, I think it was, noted, "Dog bites man is not news. Man bites dog is news." And you are right a good investment strategy is designed to make watching grass growing seem exciting.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I cringe every time I hear the phrase "playing the market":  What nonsense, successful investing is not a game.  It takes work, patience and the ability to make decisions based on logic, not fear and greed. Most people can't do that and should be in index funds or just stay out of the market..
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> So do I and I feel like too many people do that in order to try to make a buck and most people refuse to the actual benefits that company contributes to the world. They see MONEY and that is all. I would love to have the money to invest in proper companies who contribute well to their employees but then again I don't think anyone should rely on INVESTING to make money. See the sad fact of the matter is no one can truly get ahead in life unless they own their own business or figure out a way to inadvertently or advertently scam others into giving them money. Money is the main source of all evil and until we figure out a way to work without it we are going to go up in flames in the not too distant future. Maybe not in your lifetime or mine and that is what people don't think about. Although I still have about 50 years to go and do not like he way things are looking for mankind. They only care what is done in their short time on this earth. You don't realize how many people are depressed and go off the deep end because they can barley survive in this financial world. Then again most people don't care or think about that cause they have all the money they'll ever need.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I have all the money I will ever need and yes I do realize how depressed you can be if you spend your life just fighting to survive.  I know because that was world I was born into. IMHO, most people are in that position because of bad decisions they made when they were young.  If you're young and poor and start a family before you're financial able to support it, then you will probably be poor your entire life and life will be a long fight for survival.
> 
> It's people that are good or bad, not the stock market and not wealth..  The market is just another means of making money.  It's not for everyone.  Being wealthy is neither good nor bad.  It all depends on how you use your wealth.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Yes people do make the wrong decisions. The thing about that is we grow up in a society now that has SOOO many avenues of approach. I know I had a hard time deciding because I can really do anything I put my mind too and then that just creates an overwhelming feeling of "am I doing the right thing?" Kids today have to vest so much money in schooling just to get a decent job.. They have to live the rest of their life in debt and learn to live of off that obtained information they had to pay so much for. So once they obtain that debt they are forced to work a career path that they sometimes come to figure out wasn't right for them.
> 
> See we live in a world based on the knowledge we can obtain and the skills we can perform. We are forced to make life long choices before our decision making skills are fully developed. Studies say that full development occurs between the ages of 24-28. With a world based on money people get stuck cause they are so consumed with having to make that money to survive while paying off student loans or raising children or just simply trying to survive cause they cannot handle society at its core. If they cant handle it is cause they have to put up with assholes, bullies, and people who just do not know how to be decent.
> 
> Now due to all the corruption we have to live in litigious world that is so lawful that we cant scratch our ass without having to sign a paper that is usually one sided. That creates paranoia and people cant even be true friends anymore cause everyone is so worried about getting screwed over. Im not sure where exactly we went wrong but it happened in this decade and it is just going to get worse unless we turn things around.
Click to expand...


That's been true forever and one of the reasons for downturns.

There is one brain circuit for relationships.

There is one brain circuit for risk seeking/avoidance.

There is one circuit for discounting future value.

For the last 12 years the brain atlas project has been mapping out where these circuits are in your head, the genes that control them and how they interact.

Inflation creates jobs while destroying social relationships and that in turn changes gene frequencies. The solutions usually espoused to get over economic bad times create moral hazard. Behavioral economics is now pointing out these problems and the need for social relationships in the economy. Short form stimulus measures destroy the fabric of society. What the world needs now is drastic deflation to heal society by changing gene frequencies.


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## rickm19

Well I need to get involved with that project! lol my brain fires neurons like crazy!

yeah one of those stimulus measures is Facebook. Kids today use is as a source of communication and just completely destroys the interaction between humans. I was watching something the other day about the 528 hz. Basically calling it the God frequency. There is a frequency for evil which I think was 441 hz. So if we could get our music and tv frequencies and all the waves around us resonating at 528 Hz we could heal society and change the way everyone thinks and feels. I know our brains are constantly picking up all the radio waves, signals, energy and everything all around all the time. As Tesla discovered, the earth has a resident frequency just as our bodies do. The frequencies around us are constantly throwing people off kilter and just destroying the way we think and act.


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## william the wie

You are outside of my circle of competence with that one.


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## Flopper

rickm19 said:


> Flopper said:
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> rickm19 said:
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> Flopper said:
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> william the wie said:
> 
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> Flopper said:
> 
> 
> 
> The stock market like all markets are based on the desire to accumulate wealth.  Now that may be bad in your opinion but it's a fact of life. A market for shares of an enterprise is necessary for free enterprise to grow.  Without it, investors would be reluctant to invest and without those investments the economic growth we have seen in this country and the world would have been impossible.
> 
> I disagree with your statement that the stock market is corrupt.  Full disclosure is required by law for publicly traded stocks.  Everything you need to know about a company to make a decision is there.  You won't find that at your local used car lot or when buy a house or sign a lease or buy into a local business. Sure there are unscrupulous people in the securities industry but there are unscrupulous people in every business endeavor. Every year there're millions of complaints by people being swindled and treated unfairly by businesses and yet few of those complaints are leveled at the securities industry.  However, when a broker or investment manger steals from his clients, it's in every newspaper in the country.  And everyone who lost his shirt in the market trying to make a quick buck declares it's all a big swindle.
> 
> 
> 
> As Mark Twain, I think it was, noted, "Dog bites man is not news. Man bites dog is news." And you are right a good investment strategy is designed to make watching grass growing seem exciting.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I cringe every time I hear the phrase "playing the market":  What nonsense, successful investing is not a game.  It takes work, patience and the ability to make decisions based on logic, not fear and greed. Most people can't do that and should be in index funds or just stay out of the market..
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> So do I and I feel like too many people do that in order to try to make a buck and most people refuse to the actual benefits that company contributes to the world. They see MONEY and that is all. I would love to have the money to invest in proper companies who contribute well to their employees but then again I don't think anyone should rely on INVESTING to make money. See the sad fact of the matter is no one can truly get ahead in life unless they own their own business or figure out a way to inadvertently or advertently scam others into giving them money. Money is the main source of all evil and until we figure out a way to work without it we are going to go up in flames in the not too distant future. Maybe not in your lifetime or mine and that is what people don't think about. Although I still have about 50 years to go and do not like he way things are looking for mankind. They only care what is done in their short time on this earth. You don't realize how many people are depressed and go off the deep end because they can barley survive in this financial world. Then again most people don't care or think about that cause they have all the money they'll ever need.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I have all the money I will ever need and yes I do realize how depressed you can be if you spend your life just fighting to survive.  I know because that was world I was born into. IMHO, most people are in that position because of bad decisions they made when they were young.  If you're young and poor and start a family before you're financial able to support it, then you will probably be poor your entire life and life will be a long fight for survival.
> 
> It's people that are good or bad, not the stock market and not wealth..  The market is just another means of making money.  It's not for everyone.  Being wealthy is neither good nor bad.  It all depends on how you use your wealth.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Yes people do make the wrong decisions. The thing about that is we grow up in a society now that has SOOO many avenues of approach. I know I had a hard time deciding because I can really do anything I put my mind too and then that just creates an overwhelming feeling of "am I doing the right thing?" Kids today have to vest so much money in schooling just to get a decent job.. They have to live the rest of their life in debt and learn to live of off that obtained information they had to pay so much for. So once they obtain that debt they are forced to work a career path that they sometimes come to figure out wasn't right for them.
> 
> See we live in a world based on the knowledge we can obtain and the skills we can perform. We are forced to make life long choices before our decision making skills are fully developed. Studies say that full development occurs between the ages of 24-28. With a world based on money people get stuck cause they are so consumed with having to make that money to survive while paying off student loans or raising children or just simply trying to survive cause they cannot handle society at its core. If they cant handle it is cause they have to put up with assholes, bullies, and people who just do not know how to be decent.
> 
> Now due to all the corruption we have to live in litigious world that is so lawful that we cant scratch our ass without having to sign a paper that is usually one sided. That creates paranoia and people cant even be true friends anymore cause everyone is so worried about getting screwed over. Im not sure where exactly we went wrong but it happened in this decade and it is just going to get worse unless we turn things around.
Click to expand...

The size of college loans are really unfair.I graduated from college 50 years ago.  My total cost of college for 4 years including room and board was about $5,000 at a state university.  My granddaughter will be starting college next year at the same school.  The estimated cost is $105,000. If the college loan is for that amount the monthly payments will be $750/mo for 20 years.  That's insane


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## Toddsterpatriot

rickm19 said:


> Toddsterpatriot said:
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> Toddsterpatriot said:
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> When? By how much?
> 
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> 
> Click expand lol. look like as a whole it lost about 55% of its value.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> What lost 55%? When?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Damn dude it is a thread. Quit being a pain lol. Would you like me to copy and paste like you do so you cut out words and only reply to what you want? Learn to EXPAND
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Keep being non-specific. That way I can't respond to your claims. Idiot.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Keep trying to make yourself feel good bud. But if you knew how to do some research you would know I was referring to 2009 for the 55% and the total Dow drop in 1929 was 89%. Don't call me an idiot when you can to do research as well or hell if you already knew you would simply be able to respond.
Click to expand...

 
*But if you knew how to do some research you would know I was referring to 2009 for the 55% and the total Dow drop in 1929 was 89%.*

I'm great at research. I'm not great at reading the mind of whiney idiots.


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## rickm19

Toddsterpatriot said:


> rickm19 said:
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> Toddsterpatriot said:
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> Toddsterpatriot said:
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> rickm19 said:
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> Click expand lol. look like as a whole it lost about 55% of its value.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What lost 55%? When?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Damn dude it is a thread. Quit being a pain lol. Would you like me to copy and paste like you do so you cut out words and only reply to what you want? Learn to EXPAND
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Keep being non-specific. That way I can't respond to your claims. Idiot.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Keep trying to make yourself feel good bud. But if you knew how to do some research you would know I was referring to 2009 for the 55% and the total Dow drop in 1929 was 89%. Don't call me an idiot when you can to do research as well or hell if you already knew you would simply be able to respond.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> *But if you knew how to do some research you would know I was referring to 2009 for the 55% and the total Dow drop in 1929 was 89%.*
> 
> I'm great at research. I'm not great at reading the mind of whiney idiots.
Click to expand...


Yeah it easy to talk like that when your hiding behind your keyboard huh? Who asked you to read minds? You asked a question I answered. Simple... Now unless you actually intend to respond, well I really don't care how you respond cause your are irrelevant and haven't been able to say one intelligent thing.


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## rickm19

Flopper said:


> rickm19 said:
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> Flopper said:
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> rickm19 said:
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> Flopper said:
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> william the wie said:
> 
> 
> 
> As Mark Twain, I think it was, noted, "Dog bites man is not news. Man bites dog is news." And you are right a good investment strategy is designed to make watching grass growing seem exciting.
> 
> 
> 
> I cringe every time I hear the phrase "playing the market":  What nonsense, successful investing is not a game.  It takes work, patience and the ability to make decisions based on logic, not fear and greed. Most people can't do that and should be in index funds or just stay out of the market..
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> So do I and I feel like too many people do that in order to try to make a buck and most people refuse to the actual benefits that company contributes to the world. They see MONEY and that is all. I would love to have the money to invest in proper companies who contribute well to their employees but then again I don't think anyone should rely on INVESTING to make money. See the sad fact of the matter is no one can truly get ahead in life unless they own their own business or figure out a way to inadvertently or advertently scam others into giving them money. Money is the main source of all evil and until we figure out a way to work without it we are going to go up in flames in the not too distant future. Maybe not in your lifetime or mine and that is what people don't think about. Although I still have about 50 years to go and do not like he way things are looking for mankind. They only care what is done in their short time on this earth. You don't realize how many people are depressed and go off the deep end because they can barley survive in this financial world. Then again most people don't care or think about that cause they have all the money they'll ever need.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I have all the money I will ever need and yes I do realize how depressed you can be if you spend your life just fighting to survive.  I know because that was world I was born into. IMHO, most people are in that position because of bad decisions they made when they were young.  If you're young and poor and start a family before you're financial able to support it, then you will probably be poor your entire life and life will be a long fight for survival.
> 
> It's people that are good or bad, not the stock market and not wealth..  The market is just another means of making money.  It's not for everyone.  Being wealthy is neither good nor bad.  It all depends on how you use your wealth.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Yes people do make the wrong decisions. The thing about that is we grow up in a society now that has SOOO many avenues of approach. I know I had a hard time deciding because I can really do anything I put my mind too and then that just creates an overwhelming feeling of "am I doing the right thing?" Kids today have to vest so much money in schooling just to get a decent job.. They have to live the rest of their life in debt and learn to live of off that obtained information they had to pay so much for. So once they obtain that debt they are forced to work a career path that they sometimes come to figure out wasn't right for them.
> 
> See we live in a world based on the knowledge we can obtain and the skills we can perform. We are forced to make life long choices before our decision making skills are fully developed. Studies say that full development occurs between the ages of 24-28. With a world based on money people get stuck cause they are so consumed with having to make that money to survive while paying off student loans or raising children or just simply trying to survive cause they cannot handle society at its core. If they cant handle it is cause they have to put up with assholes, bullies, and people who just do not know how to be decent.
> 
> Now due to all the corruption we have to live in litigious world that is so lawful that we cant scratch our ass without having to sign a paper that is usually one sided. That creates paranoia and people cant even be true friends anymore cause everyone is so worried about getting screwed over. Im not sure where exactly we went wrong but it happened in this decade and it is just going to get worse unless we turn things around.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The size of college loans are really unfair.I graduated from college 50 years ago.  My total cost of college for 4 years including room and board was about $5,000 at a state university.  My granddaughter will be starting college next year at the same school.  The estimated cost is $105,000. If the college loan is for that amount the monthly payments will be $750/mo for 20 years.  That's insane
Click to expand...

Yea a veterinarian student I was seeing is just finishing up her last year of school and will be coming out at about 400k in debt.. About the same as a real doctor. I was thinking about going back but I cant see investing that much money for knowledge that can be obtained simply by reading. Yeah I would gain good resources and contacts but I just don't see it as a good investment. If you see the kind of money that goes into the info structure it really makes you sick cause you know that is what you are paying for also. A simple 4 year business degree would cost me around 64k. So I have to waste four years of my life spending money instead of making it. Or find a way to balance a 10 hr per day job and then going home and wrack my brain even more. Which I don't mind I'm just not a fan of structured learning. The thing that is bad is that kids can learn better with on the job training and a lot of what is learned in school is never applied to the career.


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## Flopper

rickm19 said:


> Flopper said:
> 
> 
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> rickm19 said:
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> Flopper said:
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> 
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> rickm19 said:
> 
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> 
> Flopper said:
> 
> 
> 
> I cringe every time I hear the phrase "playing the market":  What nonsense, successful investing is not a game.  It takes work, patience and the ability to make decisions based on logic, not fear and greed. Most people can't do that and should be in index funds or just stay out of the market..
> 
> 
> 
> So do I and I feel like too many people do that in order to try to make a buck and most people refuse to the actual benefits that company contributes to the world. They see MONEY and that is all. I would love to have the money to invest in proper companies who contribute well to their employees but then again I don't think anyone should rely on INVESTING to make money. See the sad fact of the matter is no one can truly get ahead in life unless they own their own business or figure out a way to inadvertently or advertently scam others into giving them money. Money is the main source of all evil and until we figure out a way to work without it we are going to go up in flames in the not too distant future. Maybe not in your lifetime or mine and that is what people don't think about. Although I still have about 50 years to go and do not like he way things are looking for mankind. They only care what is done in their short time on this earth. You don't realize how many people are depressed and go off the deep end because they can barley survive in this financial world. Then again most people don't care or think about that cause they have all the money they'll ever need.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I have all the money I will ever need and yes I do realize how depressed you can be if you spend your life just fighting to survive.  I know because that was world I was born into. IMHO, most people are in that position because of bad decisions they made when they were young.  If you're young and poor and start a family before you're financial able to support it, then you will probably be poor your entire life and life will be a long fight for survival.
> 
> It's people that are good or bad, not the stock market and not wealth..  The market is just another means of making money.  It's not for everyone.  Being wealthy is neither good nor bad.  It all depends on how you use your wealth.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Yes people do make the wrong decisions. The thing about that is we grow up in a society now that has SOOO many avenues of approach. I know I had a hard time deciding because I can really do anything I put my mind too and then that just creates an overwhelming feeling of "am I doing the right thing?" Kids today have to vest so much money in schooling just to get a decent job.. They have to live the rest of their life in debt and learn to live of off that obtained information they had to pay so much for. So once they obtain that debt they are forced to work a career path that they sometimes come to figure out wasn't right for them.
> 
> See we live in a world based on the knowledge we can obtain and the skills we can perform. We are forced to make life long choices before our decision making skills are fully developed. Studies say that full development occurs between the ages of 24-28. With a world based on money people get stuck cause they are so consumed with having to make that money to survive while paying off student loans or raising children or just simply trying to survive cause they cannot handle society at its core. If they cant handle it is cause they have to put up with assholes, bullies, and people who just do not know how to be decent.
> 
> Now due to all the corruption we have to live in litigious world that is so lawful that we cant scratch our ass without having to sign a paper that is usually one sided. That creates paranoia and people cant even be true friends anymore cause everyone is so worried about getting screwed over. Im not sure where exactly we went wrong but it happened in this decade and it is just going to get worse unless we turn things around.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The size of college loans are really unfair.I graduated from college 50 years ago.  My total cost of college for 4 years including room and board was about $5,000 at a state university.  My granddaughter will be starting college next year at the same school.  The estimated cost is $105,000. If the college loan is for that amount the monthly payments will be $750/mo for 20 years.  That's insane
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Yea a veterinarian student I was seeing is just finishing up her last year of school and will be coming out at about 400k in debt.. About the same as a real doctor. I was thinking about going back but I cant see investing that much money for knowledge that can be obtained simply by reading. Yeah I would gain good resources and contacts but I just don't see it as a good investment. If you see the kind of money that goes into the info structure it really makes you sick cause you know that is what you are paying for also. A simple 4 year business degree would cost me around 64k. So I have to waste four years of my life spending money instead of making it. Or find a way to balance a 10 hr per day job and then going home and wrack my brain even more. Which I don't mind I'm just not a fan of structured learning. The thing that is bad is that kids can learn better with on the job training and a lot of what is learned in school is never applied to the career.
Click to expand...

 People place a huge value on the name of the school on their degree and pay dearly for top schools.  If that school happens to be MIT, Harvard, Yale, Cal Tech, etc. it's worth big bucks but for 90% of the schools, the name on your degree only helps you get your first job.  After that, employers are primarily interested in what you accomplished since graduated, not where you got your diploma.

You can attend a community college in most states for about $2,000 to $3,000 a year then transfer to to 4 year state school and you will have reduced your college cost by nearly a half.  I think this is a far better path for most young people than 4 years at a prestigious university and a huge 20 year loan.


----------



## haissem123

Flopper said:


> rickm19 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Flopper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> haissem123 said:
> 
> 
> 
> it was supposed to be good but mankind's greed took over as usual. Now it's just a corrupt house of cards continually collapsing upon us all. Time to do away with it. 911 was God turning over the corrupt tables in his house. You are investing in buying and selling other peoples lives to the lowest bidder. no good can come from that. ou have done unto others and now it's being done unto us all and it doesn't seem right all of a sudden. lol. kill all the goldmen sacking your retirement funds you are now forced to invest in their corrupt markets. it's texas holdem on the short stack and worse. the market can and is nothing but manipulation and lies for a few to own the many.
> 
> 
> 
> The stock market was created for the 1%, not the 99%. Over the years we made the market a safer place for the public by eliminating a lot of unfair practices but the risks of investing are still there and the 1% will always have advantages over the 99%.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> That is my point. It was created by the wealthy manipulators so they had an easier to invest the money, that they already had, to make more. Now I have never paid attention to it because I don't agree with how and why it was created. But since almost every hard working American is invested in it in one way or another I have become interested in it because I do care about the people and unless you actually pay attention to it over the course of a lifetime a 401K is not very beneficial to ones just contributing out of their pay checks. Now most of us are starting to see how corrupt it is and many people want a revolution, which I don't think is the key to anything. Now correct me if I am wrong but this is the stock market in a nutshell.... A guy with no money, due to being controlled by the finical aspect of the world, has a great idea for a business that can help others and change lives. So without the money he turns to the men with the money and signs a contract so that man can "help" him. So basically that contract forms a publicly traded business so others can "benefit" from that companies growth. Now obviously there are different ways to fund a startup campaign so the business would not be publicly traded but if that man making the contract wants it there it will be. So with one simple little transaction the man with the money simply makes more money by doing nothing as long as that company flourishes. So there is the risk. But what most people don't see is how that contract cuts into a businesses profits and takes away from the hard working people who are sitting there making that money for them. While the big man on top uses that money that he really didn't need to begin with to vest in other things and simply using his mind to control the profits he makes. Now if you are in that one percent I applaud you. But I really think it is time to stop looking at how much money can be made and start looking at how we can make this world more sustainable and stop dumping money into houses that have so much room it could house and sustain 20 families. Think about the energy consumption it takes and chain effect that is has on humanity. Most of the one percenters believe in population control from what I understand. We don't need that, we just need better investing and more economical sustainability. Only God has the right to deem who lives and who dies. And if you think Satain is the true God well im sure you will not appreciate his slavery when your time on this earth is done and over with. See God didn't forbid eve to eat from the tree of knowledge to hold her back. He simply did it to test her because he knows that without him, knowledge can the be fruit of all evil.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The stock market like all markets are based on the desire to accumulate wealth.  Now that may be bad in your opinion but it's a fact of life. A market for shares of an enterprise is necessary for free enterprise to grow.  Without it, investors would be reluctant to invest and without those investments the economic growth we have seen in this country and the world would have been impossible.
> 
> I disagree with your statement that the stock market is corrupt.  Full disclosure is required by law for publicly traded stocks.  Everything you need to know about a company to make a decision is there.  You won't find that at your local used car lot or when buy a house or sign a lease or buy into a local business. Sure there are unscrupulous people in the securities industry but there are unscrupulous people in every business endeavor. Every year there're millions of complaints by people being swindled and treated unfairly by businesses and yet few of those complaints are leveled at the securities industry.  However, when a broker or investment manger steals from his clients, it's in every newspaper in the country.  And everyone who lost his shirt in the market trying to make a quick buck declares it's all a big swindle.
Click to expand...

for any species to let their power being horded for a few to sit in the sun sucking the natural resources and all others lives for the few and to all our ruins is a stop and childish way to manage such a fragile world. To make kings we have to over throw makes us all humpty dumbdies. it's time for mankind to grow up and  evolve already. the days of trying to build rock castles on sand are over. We can't hide under rocks any more and there's no where left to run.


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## haissem123

with black pools and instant swaps the markets over. stop being stupid and cut them out go direct to companies. fuck the sales men getting rich off selling us all out and cheating us with the same old tricks. time to wake up dah.


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## Flopper

haissem123 said:


> with black pools and instant swaps the markets over. stop being stupid and cut them out go direct to companies. fuck the sales men getting rich off selling us all out and cheating us with the same old tricks. time to wake up dah.


Possibly the best investment advice I have ever received was ignore any investments peddled by sales people.  Good investments don't need to be sold.  They sell themselves.  Anytime I get an investment solicitation, I drop it in the trash.  If it's a large glossy booklet, I throw in the trash without looking at it.


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## haissem123

was it just me, or did anybody else notice how FOX pumped and dumped precious metal on the old folks with fears of worthless money any minute? why nobody collectively called this shysters out on this scare tactic robbing the old is beyond me.


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## Flopper

haissem123 said:


> was it just me, or did anybody else notice how FOX pumped and dumped precious metal on the old folks with fears of worthless money any minute? why nobody collectively called this shysters out on this scare tactic robbing the old is beyond me.


That's not just Fox, goal peddlers have always used fear of economic disaster.to sell their product.


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## william the wie

It was also CNBC, Bloombery, RT and this and other message boards on gold.

Flopper, the free sales pitch dinners around here run 5-10 times higher than the restaurants mentioned on the Food Channel's triple D show is that true where you are too?


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## Flopper

william the wie said:


> It was also CNBC, Bloombery, RT and this and other message boards on gold.
> 
> Flopper, the free sales pitch dinners around here run 5-10 times higher than the restaurants mentioned on the Food Channel's triple D show is that true where you are too?


Probably so, however I really don't go to sales presentations very often. I've found most of them are a waste of time.  The last one I attended was about 5 years ago, a sales pitch for oil and gas limited partnerships. a real rip off.


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## william the wie

haissem123 said:


> with black pools and instant swaps the markets over. stop being stupid and cut them out go direct to companies. fuck the sales men getting rich off selling us all out and cheating us with the same old tricks. time to wake up dah.


Just go to Wikipedia and look up Modern Portfolio theory then use either the links or investopedia to explain the terms you don't understand. There are massive diseconomies of scale in investing as in if you can't beat Buffett's record something is wrong with you. Since 1998 he has lagged the S&P on average and since 2010 he has struck out on earnings every year just google for his own public statements on the subject. When you are that big it is hard to find investments that make a difference in your bottomline and that you can get into, much less get off. I disagree with his self assessment that he could have gotten out of Coca-Cola at the top and agree with him that he should have. With positions that big getting out isn't really possible. Small and medium cap value stocks beat the averages by a huge amount. And there are enough of them to get you bery rich indeed.


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## Flopper

william the wie said:


> haissem123 said:
> 
> 
> 
> with black pools and instant swaps the markets over. stop being stupid and cut them out go direct to companies. fuck the sales men getting rich off selling us all out and cheating us with the same old tricks. time to wake up dah.
> 
> 
> 
> Just go to Wikipedia and look up Modern Portfolio theory then use either the links or investopedia to explain the terms you don't understand. There are massive diseconomies of scale in investing as in if you can't beat Buffett's record something is wrong with you. Since 1998 he has lagged the S&P on average and since 2010 he has struck out on earnings every year just google for his own public statements on the subject. When you are that big it is hard to find investments that make a difference in your bottomline and that you can get into, much less get off. I disagree with his self assessment that he could have gotten out of Coca-Cola at the top and agree with him that he should have. With positions that big getting out isn't really possible. Small and medium cap value stocks beat the averages by a huge amount. And there are enough of them to get you bery rich indeed.
Click to expand...

Some people have the crazy idea that market success is synonymous with beating the s&p500.  What they fail to realize is that those big gains in the index are often followed by big loses.  I'm certainly happy my portfolio rarely beats this index.  During the 2007 to 2009 market collapse the S&P500 lose 46% of it's value.


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## william the wie

Right idea but I think you are looking at it wrong way around Flopper. It is avoiding the index losses that bring the higher returns. It turns out that lower risk equals higher returns and high risk equals lower returns. However lower risk is not the same as no risk and my portfolio is made up of optionable ETFs that at least have a sector risk of less than 1.

a 50% loss requires a 100% gain and so on. Looking over what I have I figure a 50% loss in the S&P will cost me less than 50% but if I write calls on the sectors that I own and out of the money puts on sectors I want to own and use that money to buy mini-S&P puts I can reduce my out of pocket losses by more than 50% to much less than 25% and possibly less than 20%. But I need a lot of uncorrelated sectors because useful idiots with money get somewhat scarce in the aftermath of a bear market. There is one hedge with a 28% house PC and I get to be the house in this case. I like that one a lot but I recognize that useful idiots with money get scarce in the aftermath of a bear market so I have other piles as well but I do love my safety harness while the good times roll.


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## haissem123

william the wie said:


> haissem123 said:
> 
> 
> 
> with black pools and instant swaps the markets over. stop being stupid and cut them out go direct to companies. fuck the sales men getting rich off selling us all out and cheating us with the same old tricks. time to wake up dah.
> 
> 
> 
> Just go to Wikipedia and look up Modern Portfolio theory then use either the links or investopedia to explain the terms you don't understand. There are massive diseconomies of scale in investing as in if you can't beat Buffett's record something is wrong with you. Since 1998 he has lagged the S&P on average and since 2010 he has struck out on earnings every year just google for his own public statements on the subject. When you are that big it is hard to find investments that make a difference in your bottomline and that you can get into, much less get off. I disagree with his self assessment that he could have gotten out of Coca-Cola at the top and agree with him that he should have. With positions that big getting out isn't really possible. Small and medium cap value stocks beat the averages by a huge amount. And there are enough of them to get you bery rich indeed.
Click to expand...

If all you do is capitalize on others around you the you are a parasite that needs fixing. See?


----------



## william the wie

haissem123 said:


> william the wie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> haissem123 said:
> 
> 
> 
> with black pools and instant swaps the markets over. stop being stupid and cut them out go direct to companies. fuck the sales men getting rich off selling us all out and cheating us with the same old tricks. time to wake up dah.
> 
> 
> 
> Just go to Wikipedia and look up Modern Portfolio theory then use either the links or investopedia to explain the terms you don't understand. There are massive diseconomies of scale in investing as in if you can't beat Buffett's record something is wrong with you. Since 1998 he has lagged the S&P on average and since 2010 he has struck out on earnings every year just google for his own public statements on the subject. When you are that big it is hard to find investments that make a difference in your bottomline and that you can get into, much less get off. I disagree with his self assessment that he could have gotten out of Coca-Cola at the top and agree with him that he should have. With positions that big getting out isn't really possible. Small and medium cap value stocks beat the averages by a huge amount. And there are enough of them to get you bery rich indeed.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> If all you do is capitalize on others around you the you are a parasite that needs fixing. See?
Click to expand...

think of it as non-lethal evolution in action. Back in 1970s, I know because I checked the data available at college, most college degrees had a negative Net Present Value. The real cost of a college degree in the liberal arts even without GI bill or other subsidy back then was less than a quarter of what it is now. Everybody who has gone that way is gene pool pollution.


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## Alexa777

As for me it is good, it gives growth and development. as an exampleAmerican corporation OPIC is ready to invest up to $ 250 million in each project in Ukraine


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## SteadyMercury

william the wie said:


> Margin is declining rapidly.  The odds of a continued bull run have gone from roughly 15 to 1 to 9 to 7 as a result.


These look like made up numbers, what are these from a bookie?


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## SteadyMercury

rickm19 said:


> If I had cash I would be investing in


Why is it the people with the most to say about investing usually turn out to not actually be invested in anything?


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## SteadyMercury

haissem123 said:


> 911 was God turning over the corrupt tables in his house.


Ahh big magic invisible person in sky got sick of stock market so made planes crash into buildings.

Gotcha.


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## SteadyMercury

rickm19 said:


> Now correct me if I am wrong but this is the stock market in a nutshell.... A guy with no money, due to being controlled by the finical aspect of the world, has a great idea for a business that can help others and change lives. So without the money he turns to the men with the money and signs a contract so that man can "help" him. So basically that contract forms a publicly traded business so others can "benefit" from that companies growth. Now obviously there are different ways to fund a startup campaign so the business would not be publicly traded but if that man making the contract wants it there it will be. *So with one simple little transaction the man with the money simply makes more money by doing nothing as long as that company flourishes*.


I bolded where you went off the rails. The man with the money might make money, might break even, might lose some, might lose all.


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## william the wie

SteadyMercury said:


> william the wie said:
> 
> 
> 
> Margin is declining rapidly.  The odds of a continued bull run have gone from roughly 15 to 1 to 9 to 7 as a result.
> 
> 
> 
> These look like made up numbers, what are these from a bookie?
Click to expand...

I write for the audience I'm writing to. 92.25% is the usual probability of a non-correction in a given quarter when leverage is steady or increasing 56% is the probability when leverage declines without a correction..That is the reason for the word roughly.


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## SteadyMercury

So you believe one single factor (margin) can be used to determine the probability of a correction, using only only one of three states (steady, increasing, decreasing) to get a percentage change down to 1/100 of a percentage?

I'm a bit skeptical, the stock market is a far more complex system with way more variables to look at just any one measure to arrive at such specific odds.


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## william the wie

Your welcome to your opinion.


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## SteadyMercury

Okay then to clarify, you believe the odds of a correction in the stock market can be calculated down to the hundredth of a percentage by looking only at whether margin is rising or declining? Regardless of PE, growth expectations, sentiment, what the central bank says, world events, etc. that is all irrelevant all we need to know is margin direction and the odds become one of two values.

Seriously?

Sorry dude I love your posts and all but I find this shit laughable.


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## Dogmaphobe

Mutually exclusive dichotomies -- good or bad?


----------



## william the wie

SteadyMercury said:


> Okay then to clarify, you believe the odds of a correction in the stock market can be calculated down to the hundredth of a percentage by looking only at whether margin is rising or declining? Regardless of PE, growth expectations, sentiment, what the central bank says, world events, etc. that is all irrelevant all we need to know is margin direction and the odds become one of two values.
> 
> Seriously?
> 
> Sorry dude I love your posts and all but I find this shit laughable.



Usually it is a warning sign of market manipulation as apparently revealed over the last 24 hours in the oil market

oil production and storage data was apparently removed from last week's data to be inserted into this week's data.

Backwardation in the futures market has temporarily ended and WTI may drop below transportation costs for awhile.

Shell in particular will be hit very hard due to its merger announcement yesterday.

That is turn means that the S&P will drop to some and FTSE even more. The fact is that massive bureaucracies  at multiple Sovereign Wealth Funds cannot keep all mouths shut nor can prosecutions be brought.


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## william the wie

Edit time limit ran out but basically I keep in mind that even Benjamin Graham got hurt in 1929 by ignoring the need to hedge. The timing of your post and my exoneration was just luck but I do kind of like it.


----------



## OohPooPahDoo

rickm19 said:


> So I'm debating in my own mind if the stock market is a drain on society or if it is beneficial...
> We put money in for long term investments in companies.. if they go under we loose out. All it is is people playing with other people's money to try to either better the world with great inventions or make a quick buck.




No.

its just to make a buck.

Any inventions that come about are just there because they make a buck.


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## SteadyMercury

william the wie said:


> The timing of your post and my exoneration was just luck but I do kind of like it.


What exoneration? We were discussing whether a single factor (margin volume direction) could make the odds of a correction quantifiable to one of two distinct values accurate down to the hundredth of a percentage.

That is ridiculous to believe, the market is a far more complex system and many things impact the future odds of a correction.


----------



## JiggsCasey

it's great when growth is seemingly infinite ... unfortunately, we do not live in that world any more, as global net energy continues its rapid decline and the world's biosphere continues to die around us.. ...   It's only the illusion of growth that continues to expand what is undoubtedly a stock market bubble...   

In the short term, there is still time to pump and dump...  In the mid- to long-term? Get out!!! Liquidate while you still can.


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## CoachWitch

There are people who made money enough for their living through stock investments and few of them have lost their lifetime savings. So, it’s difficult to predict if it is good or bad. I would suggest you to try your luck but be careful.


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## william the wie

JiggsCasey said:


> it's great when growth is seemingly infinite ... unfortunately, we do not live in that world any more, as global net energy continues its rapid decline and the world's biosphere continues to die around us.. ...   It's only the illusion of growth that continues to expand what is undoubtedly a stock market bubble...
> 
> In the short term, there is still time to pump and dump...  In the mid- to long-term? Get out!!! Liquidate while you still can.


 Liquidate into what?


----------



## Maggdy

I believe in this: 
"Why 99% of trading is pointless?
By Mitch Tuchman
Published: Aug 1, 2015 8:32 a.m. ET

Bloomberg News/Landov
An astonishing $32 trillion in securities changes hands every year with no net positive impact for investors, charges Vanguard Group Founder John Bogle.

Meanwhile, corporate finance — the reason Wall Street exists — is just a tiny slice of the total business. The nation's big investment banks probably could work for less than a week and take the rest of the year off with no real effect on the economy.


"The job of finance is to provide capital to companies. We do it to the tune of $250 billion a year in IPOs and secondary offerings," Bogle told Time in an interview.


"What else do we do? We encourage investors to trade about $32 trillion a year. So the way I calculate it, 99% of what we do in this industry is people trading with one another, with a gain only to the middleman. It's a waste of resources."

Rent seekers

It's a lot of money, $32 trillion. Nearly double the entire U.S. economy moving from one pocket to another, with a toll-taker in the middle. Most people refer to them as "stock brokers," but let's call them what they are — toll-takers and rent-seekers.

Rent-seeking as an occupation is as old as the hills. In exchange for working to build up credentials and relative fluency in the arcane rules of an industry, one gets to stand back from actual work and just collect money.

Ostensibly, the job of a financial adviser is to provide advice. Do you actually get that from your broker? It is worth anything?

Research shows, over and over, that stock brokers can't do much of anything demonstrably valuable. They don't know which stocks will go up or down and when. They don't know which asset classes will outperform this year or next.

Nobody knows. That's the point. If you're among that small cadre of extremely high-level traders who can throw loads of cash at a short-term fluke, fantastic. If you have a mind for numbers like Warren Buffett that allows you to buy companies on the cheap and hold them forever, excellent.

If you're a normal retirement investor trying to get from A to B and retire on time, well, you have a really big problem to face: The toll-taker wants your money.

Dead weight

So he needs you to trade — a lot. Because that's how stock brokers make money. Not by doling out retirement advice, but by ensuring that your account is active and churning commissions on behalf of them and their employers.

What's a highway with no traffic on it? If you're a toll-taker, it's a money loser. So Wall Street's rent-seekers need traffic in the form of regular trading. An account that sits invested for months at a time with no trades is dead weight to them.

Nevertheless, as Bogle maintains, doing nothing is the key. "Don't do something, just stand there!" he has often said.

A portfolio indexing approach to investing codifies Bogle's time-tested and effective way of investing for retirement — without lining the pockets of toll-taking stock brokers along the way."

More from MarketWatch: Why 99% of trading is pointless


----------



## Delta4Embassy

Good for short-term investing, buy low, sell high. But long-term we're gonna default on the national debt or any of a number of other calamities will occur causing the global economy to collapse.


----------



## Agit8r

A market is only as good or bad as what is traded in it.


----------



## william the wie

And the people doing the trading.


----------



## OohPooPahDoo

Maggdy said:


> I believe in this:
> "Why 99% of trading is pointless?
> By Mitch Tuchman
> Published: Aug 1, 2015 8:32 a.m. ET
> 
> Bloomberg News/Landov
> An astonishing $32 trillion in securities changes hands every year with no net positive impact for investors, charges Vanguard Group Founder John Bogle.


 well no fucking shit. Its a zero sum game. This is the dumbest statement regarding the stock market i have ever heard. The author has shit for brains.


----------



## basquebromance

if folks had listened to Trump over the last 6 years things would have worked out, it would have worked out. we are so tied up with china. when things go bad with china, they go bad with us. we're just tied in. we're tied in. and we're tied in to their advantage, not our advantage. what we have to do is be smart. we have to be smart. WE HAVE TO STOP THEM FROM DEVALUING THEIR CURRENCY. PRESIDENT TRUMP WILL DO THAT!


----------



## Toddsterpatriot

basquebromance said:


> if folks had listened to Trump over the last 6 years things would have worked out, it would have worked out. we are so tied up with china. when things go bad with china, they go bad with us. we're just tied in. we're tied in. and we're tied in to their advantage, not our advantage. what we have to do is be smart. we have to be smart. WE HAVE TO STOP THEM FROM DEVALUING THEIR CURRENCY. PRESIDENT TRUMP WILL DO THAT!



Their currency is overvalued, not undervalued.


----------



## Toro

basquebromance said:


> if folks had listened to Trump over the last 6 years things would have worked out, it would have worked out. we are so tied up with china. when things go bad with china, they go bad with us. we're just tied in. we're tied in. and we're tied in to their advantage, not our advantage. what we have to do is be smart. we have to be smart. WE HAVE TO STOP THEM FROM DEVALUING THEIR CURRENCY. PRESIDENT TRUMP WILL DO THAT!



No he won't, you idiot.

China is in trouble.  

The CNY is going lower.


----------



## william the wie

Toro said:


> basquebromance said:
> 
> 
> 
> if folks had listened to Trump over the last 6 years things would have worked out, it would have worked out. we are so tied up with china. when things go bad with china, they go bad with us. we're just tied in. we're tied in. and we're tied in to their advantage, not our advantage. what we have to do is be smart. we have to be smart. WE HAVE TO STOP THEM FROM DEVALUING THEIR CURRENCY. PRESIDENT TRUMP WILL DO THAT!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No he won't, you idiot.
> 
> China is in trouble.
> 
> The CNY is going lower.
Click to expand...


CNY, Mainland  or international Yuan? They're both going down but the mainland will go down further.


----------



## xband

william the wie said:


> Toro said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> basquebromance said:
> 
> 
> 
> if folks had listened to Trump over the last 6 years things would have worked out, it would have worked out. we are so tied up with china. when things go bad with china, they go bad with us. we're just tied in. we're tied in. and we're tied in to their advantage, not our advantage. what we have to do is be smart. we have to be smart. WE HAVE TO STOP THEM FROM DEVALUING THEIR CURRENCY. PRESIDENT TRUMP WILL DO THAT!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No he won't, you idiot.
> 
> China is in trouble.
> 
> The CNY is going lower.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> CNY, Mainland  or international Yuan? They're both going down but the mainland will go down further.
Click to expand...


If you invested your money in a foreign market then I feel the deepest pity for you without bragging. God takes care of drunks and fools


----------

