# Lockheed Martin Now Has a Patent For Its Potentially World Changing Fusion Reactor



## Daryl Hunt (Mar 27, 2018)

*When it first announced the project, the company said it could have a working prototype of the revolutionary power source as early as 2019.*


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## Tijn Von Ingersleben (Mar 27, 2018)

Fascinating stuff. I hope it pans out.


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## JGalt (Mar 27, 2018)

That's pretty cool! I want to be the first one to have a fusion-powered monster truck. Instead of "rollin' coal", I'll be "rollin' Deuterium plasma."


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## MarathonMike (Mar 27, 2018)

There hasn't been much progress in nuclear fusion for decades. I hope this spurs a 'fusion race' with other companies. LMT may or may not be successful, but if a dozen companies put in the R&D, I'll bet one of them gets it done. That would be a game changer.


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## frigidweirdo (Mar 27, 2018)

MarathonMike said:


> There hasn't been much progress in nuclear fusion for decades. I hope this spurs a 'fusion race' with other companies. LMT may or may not be successful, but if a dozen companies put in the R&D, I'll bet one of them gets it done. That would be a game changer.



I bet China's far, far ahead of the US by now.


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## BasicHumanUnit (Mar 27, 2018)

frigidweirdo said:


> I bet China's far, far ahead of the US by now.



Of course they are, they steal the tech data every day.


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## aaronleland (Mar 27, 2018)

I hope they spend decades on it, and it ends up not being able to power a refrigerator.


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## IsaacNewton (Mar 27, 2018)

Ultimately solar power is the final answer to all energy needs of the human race, but fusion is a close second if perfected as it doesn't produce harmful chemical like CO2 or Methane. How they may have solved the conundrum of getting more energy out of the reaction than goes in is the key question. The sun uses natural gravity to power its fusion reactions, to do it on Earth they'd have to reach temps of 100 million degrees. That takes a lot of energy which makes it so hard to get more out than you put in.


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## Daryl Hunt (Mar 27, 2018)

IsaacNewton said:


> Ultimately solar power is the final answer to all energy needs of the human race, but fusion is a close second if perfected as it doesn't produce harmful chemical like CO2 or Methane. How they may have solved the conundrum of getting more energy out of the reaction than goes in is the key question. The sun uses natural gravity to power its fusion reactions, to do it on Earth they'd have to reach temps of 100 million degrees. That takes a lot of energy which makes it so hard to get more out than you put in.



What makes it possible is that it can be done fairly easily.  What makes it dangerous is controlling it.  Not being able to control it might make a runaway and you just might lose an entire county to the damage in an instant before it runs out of fuel.  It appears that Lockheed thinks they have the control licked.

Imagine a nuclear fission power bomber without the nasty fallout and nasty rays.  Something the size of the old B-36 comes to mind except modern.


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## IsaacNewton (Mar 27, 2018)

Daryl Hunt said:


> IsaacNewton said:
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> > Ultimately solar power is the final answer to all energy needs of the human race, but fusion is a close second if perfected as it doesn't produce harmful chemical like CO2 or Methane. How they may have solved the conundrum of getting more energy out of the reaction than goes in is the key question. The sun uses natural gravity to power its fusion reactions, to do it on Earth they'd have to reach temps of 100 million degrees. That takes a lot of energy which makes it so hard to get more out than you put in.
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Red is a good color for a corvette yes?


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## Daryl Hunt (Mar 27, 2018)

JGalt said:


> That's pretty cool! I want to be the first one to have a fusion-powered monster truck. Instead of "rollin' coal", I'll be "rollin' Deuterium plasma."



And you might be the first to get a nice fine for your rolling Deuterium plasma.  Some moron decided to try and break up some protesters recently with this and ended up with a hefty fine with his black cloud.


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## Daryl Hunt (Mar 27, 2018)

IsaacNewton said:


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Knowing Dodge, Dodge will try and shoe horn one into their Challenger package.


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## westwall (Mar 27, 2018)

IsaacNewton said:


> Ultimately solar power is the final answer to all energy needs of the human race, but fusion is a close second if perfected as it doesn't produce harmful chemical like CO2 or Methane. How they may have solved the conundrum of getting more energy out of the reaction than goes in is the key question. The sun uses natural gravity to power its fusion reactions, to do it on Earth they'd have to reach temps of 100 million degrees. That takes a lot of energy which makes it so hard to get more out than you put in.







That is a laughable assertion.  Solar is notoriously inefficient, incredibly toxic to produce, and doesn't work when the Sun ain't shining.  Fusion, if it can be perfected would instantly change the energy system dynamics of the world.  Anybody who doesn't understand how profound a change that would engender is truly living in the 18th century.


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## IsaacNewton (Mar 27, 2018)

westwall said:


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> > Ultimately solar power is the final answer to all energy needs of the human race, but fusion is a close second if perfected as it doesn't produce harmful chemical like CO2 or Methane. How they may have solved the conundrum of getting more energy out of the reaction than goes in is the key question. The sun uses natural gravity to power its fusion reactions, to do it on Earth they'd have to reach temps of 100 million degrees. That takes a lot of energy which makes it so hard to get more out than you put in.
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## longknife (Mar 27, 2018)

*What I would really like to see is a usable fuel cell where water is turned into hydrogen to power plants for transportation uses.*


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## Daryl Hunt (Mar 27, 2018)

Daryl Hunt said:


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The new Dodge Destructo.  Good for 1 quarter mile only.  It hits 462 mph and goes up in a ball of light.  It has a new Warrantee of 20-20.  20 minutes or 20 feet whichever comes first.


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## Daryl Hunt (Mar 27, 2018)

longknife said:


> *What I would really like to see is a usable fuel cell where water is turned into hydrogen to power plants for transportation uses.*



There may be a new battery on the horizon that uses metalics that changes a solution into and then hydrogen directly into electricity and then back to the original solution.  The next 5 years is going to be one wild ride for everything connected to energy.


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## Old Rocks (Mar 28, 2018)

westwall said:


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Mr. Westwall seems to be a bit down on solar. However where it has been used, the people seem to like it. And here is a plan that will change it's utility forever.


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## Daryl Hunt (Mar 28, 2018)

Old Rocks said:


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Australia is a good candidate.  Just go inland and you get to some of the flattest and barren land you have ever seen.  Most of the population hugs the coastlines.  It's a natural for Solar Power.  I have a background in battery power and solar power.  We are on the brink of even having 3 wheel vehicles that can operate  at about less than 20 mph without the need of a battery when the sun is out on just solar cells alone.  With the cost of Lithium Batteries coming down you can now run a higher amp hour battery and have quite a bit more range on the low speed vehicles and use them at night.  If need be, plug them in to get you home.  The Recharging Stations are cropping up all over the place these days in places like California, Oregon and Denver.  

As for housing, if you are building a new house, you can build a zero energy building for about the cost that you used to build a regular building for.  That means solar along with improved insulation, position of glass and a few other neat tricks that don't cost that much in construction.  By having a backup battery system you can have power after the sun goes down.  The good news is, you only need max power about 4 hours a day.  The rest of the time, you are either using less power since it's rest time or it's daylight and you are producing an overage of power.  You can have 10KWs of Batteries that you only use for the peak period and the non peak period.   When the sun is out, you are recharging it.  The Solar Cells go on in place of the Roof Tiles.  By using a heat exchanger your heating and cooling will not require a lot of power and your solar can cover that as well.

This system works even when it's overcast.  When the sun is completely covered it still works at about an 80% rate.  You may need a backup heating system though just in case depending on how cold it gets.  In the Southern States, no heat will be needed.


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## IsaacNewton (Mar 28, 2018)

Old Rocks said:


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No worries, some still think they live in 1885 and are on the lookout for the newest whale oil lamp.


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## TheOldSchool (Mar 28, 2018)

Daryl Hunt said:


> *When it first announced the project, the company said it could have a working prototype of the revolutionary power source as early as 2019.*


Trump’s going to tax the hell out of it to protect obsolete jobs


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## westwall (Mar 28, 2018)

Old Rocks said:


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I have a solar system, unlike you silly people, so actually know its limitations.


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## The Sage of Main Street (Mar 28, 2018)

Daryl Hunt said:


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*Bug Spray*

Once you have black, you never come back.


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## The Sage of Main Street (Mar 28, 2018)

Daryl Hunt said:


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*The Only Oil That Has Peaked Is Snake Oil*

Wannabe futurists have been preaching that for the last 45 years.


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## miketx (Mar 28, 2018)

Great news. I just wonder how it will be used to continue to screw over the public.


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## miketx (Mar 28, 2018)

Daryl Hunt said:


> IsaacNewton said:
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The problem with your theory is that once the containment is breached the fusion reaction stops.


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## westwall (Mar 28, 2018)

The Sage of Main Street said:


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Try over a 100 years.....  And still they scream it from the rooftops!


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## Daryl Hunt (Mar 29, 2018)

westwall said:


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The problem with using pure hydrogen for anything is, the molecules are the smallest ones and it's a real bear to make a seal to contain them.  Sooner or later you are going to have a build up of pure hydrogen in a fender well and blow your right rear side off.


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## westwall (Mar 29, 2018)

Daryl Hunt said:


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Back in the old days that was true.  Modern technology however, has made that issue a thing of the past.


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## Daryl Hunt (Mar 29, 2018)

westwall said:


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And yet we don't see it coming out.  it's still a problem.  If I bounce the system around like it would be in a car leaks will happen.  And those leaks are dangerous.  There are safer alternatives out there that are coming on line or are already on line.


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## westwall (Mar 29, 2018)

Daryl Hunt said:


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That's because it is still more expensive in terms of energy usage to separate out the hydrogen.  Until they advance the tech to where you get more energy out of the hydrogen than is used to create it you won't see it commercially available.  However, if Lockheed can indeed perfect their fusion technology, that too will be a thing of the past.  I don't think anyone here has any idea of just how profound a change will come when fusion power is perfected.


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## Daryl Hunt (Mar 29, 2018)

westwall said:


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That's what pretty well killed off the electric car in 190X. The Gas Car was found to be cheaper when you considered just how crude the electric car was. They did not have the technology to build a battery and electric motor to go much further than 10 miles per charge without one hell a long extension cord. Of course, Trolleys did have one hell of a long extension cord and the Trains ended up doing it 50 years later. But cars didn't have that capability until just recently. Add to the fact, the Military tied up the Rare Earth Motor for about 10 years in the 80s and 90s so they could not be developed for commercial uses. Even so, it hasn't been until recently that the batteries have been capable or cheap enough to complete. It's gotten to the point where it's not real tough to produce a family electric car that has a 250 mile range for just about 5000 more than it's gas counterpart. And most of that difference is the batteries themselves. And that is coming down as better batteries are coming on line.

India, China, California, Oregon and a few other states will not allow gas powered cars by 2030 on their highways. Even in Denver, the push for recharging stations are being pushed. Fedex just placed a large order for a fleet of Electric Trucks with Tesla. Funny how we are going back to the way it was in 1903.

The Fusion has been very elusive for decades now.  Even with the best solution just overhead.  It's going to happen.  Maybe not now, but someday.  And it will revolutionize even flight.


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## Erinwltr (Mar 29, 2018)

Awesome.  Thanks for the comment.  Sort of reminds me of the episode on Voyager, The Omega Directive."


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## Old Rocks (Mar 29, 2018)

Until they have a fusion reactor up and running, let us continue to develop wind and solar. Both are now cheaper than even dirty coal by kilowatt produced. And solar has the advantage of being able to use it in very small applications as easily as in mega-watt installations.


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## martybegan (Mar 29, 2018)

Old Rocks said:


> Until they have a fusion reactor up and running, let us continue to develop wind and solar. Both are now cheaper than even dirty coal by kilowatt produced. And solar has the advantage of being able to use it in very small applications as easily as in mega-watt installations.



Except at night, and when there is no wind, and when it rains, or there is too much wind, or during the winter in certain parts of the country....


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## Daryl Hunt (Mar 29, 2018)

martybegan said:


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> ...



For solar, even when it's overcast, you will get an 80% supply.  In the rain, it might drop to 50%.  By  adding batteries you can charge the batteries during the peak sun times and use the batteries when the sun is not out.


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## The Sage of Main Street (Mar 29, 2018)

Daryl Hunt said:


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*IED 2 KO PC*

Can we time it so it grenades Antiffy protesters?


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## The Sage of Main Street (Mar 29, 2018)

Erinwltr said:


> Sort of reminds me of the episode on Voyager, The Omega Directive."


*Geektopia*

Fictional science


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## westwall (Mar 29, 2018)

Daryl Hunt said:


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That is certainly their stated goal.  And if fusion can be brought on line then hydrogen fuel cells will supplant EV's.  EV's are always going to be less efficient than ICE's until Nikola Tesla's broadcast power system can be developed where you get your electricity via antenna.  Get that tech working and EV's will sweep all other motive systems off the road.  And rightfully so.


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## Daryl Hunt (Mar 29, 2018)

The Sage of Main Street said:


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How about putting a bunch of it in the wheel wells of those idiots doing rolling black smoke.


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## martybegan (Mar 29, 2018)

Daryl Hunt said:


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Do you have a link for 80% in overcast conditions and 50% in the rain?


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## Daryl Hunt (Mar 29, 2018)

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I don't need it.  I deal in solar and electric power.  It's from my own experience.  Solar uses rays that are beyond our sight as well.  Pretty much, if there is any light at all, solar will use it.  If it's 80% across the board on all waves then you get 80%.  If it's raining, even the rain will refract light.  Just not as much as either a cloudy day or a clear day. 

But since you can't seem to find google yourself, here is a couple of cites
Will My Solar Panels Work When It’s Cloudy or Rainy? | Direct Energy Solar

Do Solar Panels Work at Night or On Cloudy Days? | EnergySage


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## martybegan (Mar 30, 2018)

Daryl Hunt said:


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From what I read you only get 10%-25% efficiency when it's cloudy. Your 2nd link also only says 10-25%, so why are you going on about 80%?


Do solar panels work in cloudy weather?


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## Old Rocks (Mar 30, 2018)

And that is why you buy Powerwall batteries from Tesla.


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## Daryl Hunt (Mar 30, 2018)

martybegan said:


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The link says a 10 to 25% decrease.  That would be a total of 75 to 90% total.  The old Solar Panels were like you say.  But the new ones are tuned more to accept to operate more efficiently.  On a Bike (trike) on a cloudy day, you can still get 8 amps out of the 12 on a cloudy day.  Meaning, wihtout battery, you can do about 8 mph versus 12 mph.  That doesn't sound real impressive but during a continous operation, that's still quite a range.  Now, add a 50AH battery and you have a 20 mph bike with unlimited range with about a 4 hour night time operating range.  Trust me, spend 12 hours on that rig and your ass is flat.  but you will have gone more than 200 miles.


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## WorldWatcher (Mar 30, 2018)

Daryl Hunt said:


> The link says a 10 to 25% decrease.  That would be a total of 75 to 90% total.  Read it again.




Actually the first paragraph says " *But, do solar panels work in cloudy weather? Yes… just not quite as well*On a cloudy day, typical solar panels can produce 10-25% of their rated capacity."


>>>>


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## martybegan (Mar 30, 2018)

Daryl Hunt said:


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No, the link says you get 10-25% efficiency. 



> On a cloudy day, typical solar panels can produce 10-25% of their rated capacity.



So if you can usually get 100 watts out of a cell, you only get 10-25 on a cloudy or rainy day. 

You have a link for these 75% efficient on a cloudy day cells?


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## westwall (Mar 30, 2018)

Old Rocks said:


> And that is why you buy Powerwall batteries from Tesla.







Which won't give you power for more than a day.  Storms tend to last a lot longer than that.  I have a solar system and have had for almost thirty years now.  What is sad is the cheap systems out there will basically do as good as my thirty year old system.  That's pathetic.  If I'm willing to spend another 35K or so, I can get a system that is advertised at twice the efficiency of my system as it currently sits.  But, I live in the mountains with lots of storms so no, your powerwall is not the solution you think it is.  

My primary system for year round power is a water wheel in my creek.  We get enough power to run the lights and the refrigerator.  THAT is the best system I have other than the Grid, and by a long way.


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## martybegan (Mar 30, 2018)

westwall said:


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How old is your water wheel? They have also been making strides in small personal water flow turbines for power generation.


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## westwall (Mar 30, 2018)

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It's now 26 years old.  I built it myself, except for the dynamo.


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## martybegan (Mar 30, 2018)

westwall said:


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Interesting. This is a link to what's out today. (or at least in 2012)

Company unveils small personal-sized hydroelectricity generator


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## Daryl Hunt (Mar 30, 2018)

westwall said:


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Almost all of our electric power around here is hydro electric power.  It used to be oil and then Natural Gas but in the late 60s and early 70s the Dam Systems on the Black Canyon was finished and it had enough power to not only power everything along the various towns and cities but enough to export at a profit.  The Air got a lot cleaner and the power cost went down.

You care lucky to have a stream you can use.  Hydro Electric Power is the way to go whenever you can.  It's cheap and extremely efficient.  I wonder why more Rocky Mountain Towns don't go that route instead of fighting to keep their coal burning power plants since they have rivers and streams all around them.


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## Daryl Hunt (Mar 30, 2018)

martybegan said:


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It all depends on how old the system is.  Like Westwall's system, being 30 years old, it's not going to be real efficient.  But the brand new stuff can run on the other light waves other than white light just fine.  Light goes from Microwave to higher frequency light we can't see.  There are more types of light that we can't see than we can see.  Building a system to utilize the full spectrum means that when the white light isn't there as much, the others can pick up the slack. And that is where we are today.  Yes, it's expensive but the cost is coming down as production comes up.


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## westwall (Mar 30, 2018)

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Because it costs money, that's why.  The coal powered plants are already there, and for the most part are in far off remote places where they are not seen.


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## westwall (Mar 30, 2018)

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That's good for charging a cell phone or other small battery operated device, but you can't power a house with it.  Scaled up though and it would be a different story.


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## Daryl Hunt (Mar 30, 2018)

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At 250 watts and 12 volts that 3000 amps.  That pretty well takes care of your household electric energy including your fridge.  The problem is, it's expensive costing about 7000 bucks a pop in 2012.  I have a feeling that your home made one comes to that setting at a fraction of the cost.


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## bripat9643 (Mar 31, 2018)

IsaacNewton said:


> Ultimately solar power is the final answer to all energy needs of the human race, but fusion is a close second if perfected as it doesn't produce harmful chemical like CO2 or Methane. How they may have solved the conundrum of getting more energy out of the reaction than goes in is the key question. The sun uses natural gravity to power its fusion reactions, to do it on Earth they'd have to reach temps of 100 million degrees. That takes a lot of energy which makes it so hard to get more out than you put in.



Only a profound idiot would claim solar is preferable to fusion power.  What's better about, the fact that it's unrealiable, that it requires millions of acres of land, that it's useless in cold climates?  Your subsequent discussion of fusion only confirms that you're a dumbass.


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## bripat9643 (Mar 31, 2018)

Daryl Hunt said:


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There is no runaway problem, dork.  The minute anything goes wrong, the reaction stops.


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## bripat9643 (Mar 31, 2018)

Daryl Hunt said:


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Fine for what?


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## Old Rocks (Mar 31, 2018)

Little fuck finger, we have solar, and it is delivering power to many people as we post. How many people are powering their house on fusion power? For fifty years, fusion has been just around the corner. When it actually arrives, then talk to me about how good it is. Until then, hydro, solar, and wind are far more useful than promises.


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## longknife (Mar 31, 2018)

My problem with hydro-power is that it affects the wildlife using the stream or river to live.


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## Daryl Hunt (Mar 31, 2018)

bripat9643 said:


> IsaacNewton said:
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Only a profound idiot would wait for a bus that might never come and miss the one that does.


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## evenflow1969 (Mar 31, 2018)

aaronleland said:


> I hope they spend decades on it, and it ends up not being able to power a refrigerator.


It is already putting out more power than put in. It will work, oil and gas iks fucked as fuel! They will be needed for other products. The bad news is what this means for the nucklear arms race. It no longer takes years of spinning fuel for a bomb. This tech ends up in wrong hands, bad news!


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## bripat9643 (Mar 31, 2018)

evenflow1969 said:


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Yu can't use it to make a bomb, moron.


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## bripat9643 (Mar 31, 2018)

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Solar power isn't a bus. It's a broken down bicycle.


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## Daryl Hunt (Mar 31, 2018)

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Being the ultra rightwing fruitcake you are, I don't expect you to understand.  But we will go ahead without your help in spite of you.


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## IsaacNewton (Mar 31, 2018)

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You voted for a douche that had a fake university scam young people out of millions of dollars. Yes you are the person to lecture humanity on fraud.


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## bripat9643 (Mar 31, 2018)

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Not with my tax money, asshole.  You can do whatever you want with your own money.


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## bripat9643 (Mar 31, 2018)

IsaacNewton said:


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Snowflakes do nothing but constantly spout lies and smears.


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## IsaacNewton (Mar 31, 2018)

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## evenflow1969 (Mar 31, 2018)

bripat9643 said:


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You obviously know nothing of nuclear physics. Educate your self! The same process can make a release of alpha,beta, and gama particles. This processs can be used for quickened enrichment. Also please define eexplosion buddie. Do you see anything that might applie? Moron!


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## bripat9643 (Mar 31, 2018)

evenflow1969 said:


> bripat9643 said:
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There's no such thing as gama particles, moron  There are gama rays, not gama particles.   There are alpha and beta particles.  None of these can  be used to enrich uranium. You need free nuetrons to do that.  However, a fusion reaction will produce them, but you need to have it in proximity to the reaction, and there is no reason to pack uranium into a fusion reactor unless you are deliberately trying to make a bomb.

Before you call someone a dumbass, you better make sure you have your facts straight.

Now don't you feel stupid?


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## Daryl Hunt (Apr 1, 2018)

bripat9643 said:


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WE aren't using your money.  ou don't pay taxes anyway.  Stay off the public roads, you aren't paying for them.  Your kids shouldn't use any of the educational systems including the colleges or univervsities or tradeschools, stop using the water out of the tap, your Natural Gas needs to be shut off, your electric power needs to be shut off, no gas at the pumps, and more.  If you use any of these things you just might be a socialist.  Thinking otherwise you also might be inbred.


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## evenflow1969 (Apr 1, 2018)

bripat9643 said:


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you do not know shit, to a particle physicist every thing is a particle. It is nuclear and particle physicists that work on these types of things, So thank you for you hilll billy knowlege, but have a coke and a smile and shut the fuck up! To us even a photon is a particle!


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## bripat9643 (Apr 1, 2018)

Daryl Hunt said:


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Yes, I am paying for them.  Solar wouldn't exist without generous credits from the taxpayer.  I also pay taxes for roads, schools, colleges and universities.  I pay the utility company directly for water, gas and electricity.  Private companies supply gas at the pump.  

Apparently you believe going to the grocery store makes someone a socialist.  That's how we know you're a dumbfuck.


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## Old Rocks (Apr 1, 2018)

Modern autos would not exist without the roads various levels of government has built. There are many things that modern society depends on that were started with taxpayer money, including what we are communicating on right now. Just because you are a little ideological asshole does not change any of that.


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## Old Rocks (Apr 1, 2018)

I hope Lockheed Martin is successful, but until they have a working model, continue to build what works, solar and wind.


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## HenryBHough (Apr 1, 2018)

bripat9643 said:


> Snowflakes do nothing but constantly spout lies and smears.



Untrue!

They also whine and devote much of their time to productive activities.  Like masturbation.


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## bripat9643 (Apr 1, 2018)

Old Rocks said:


> Modern autos would not exist without the roads various levels of government has built. There are many things that modern society depends on that were started with taxpayer money, including what we are communicating on right now. Just because you are a little ideological asshole does not change any of that.



That's obvious bullshit because autos came before the roads, not after.  Furthermore, private companies were bulding toll roads, but the auto manufacturers wanted the various local governments to subsidize their industry.  Private companies developed most of the technology in existence, includng 90% of the internet.   They would have developed 100% of the internet technology, given a little more time.  There were already private networks in existence at the time.  I know because I used to work on one that tied together all the computers in our company.  It was only a small leap to go from private networks to public networks.


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## bripat9643 (Apr 1, 2018)

Old Rocks said:


> I hope Lockheed Martin is successful, but until they have a working model, continue to build what works, solar and wind.


PHHHHHTT!  

Dead ends.


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## Daryl Hunt (Apr 2, 2018)

bripat9643 said:


> Daryl Hunt said:
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Newsflash:  The Trucks that deliver your food are all subsidized.  If the heavy trucks were taxed like cars according to their actual weight and the damage they do to the road, each truck would be paying over 8000 times the amount of registration fees to be on the road.  There is almost nothing in your life that isn't connected to some kind of socialist program.  

The Infrastructure that goes into the power and gas grids are from taxes.  Are you aware that the Gas, Cable, Telephone and Electric Company don't own the lines even though they are the ones that installed them?  They are owned by one of the many levels of Government.  And money from Taxes went into putting in those lines.    Anytime infrastructure is put into place Government helps with the funding.  Like putting in the new Recharging Stations for electric cars.  Or putting in new electric lines in a rural area.  Or that new Cable TV line that is slowly reaching further into rural America.  While you pray to the "Corporate Gods" you should also be aware that they wouldn't exist with the help from the Socialist side of things.  If Corporate were left to it' s own devices, there are much easier ways to make money than getting power, tv, internet, etc. to the general public.


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## Daryl Hunt (Apr 2, 2018)

bripat9643 said:


> Old Rocks said:
> 
> 
> > Modern autos would not exist without the roads various levels of government has built. There are many things that modern society depends on that were started with taxpayer money, including what we are communicating on right now. Just because you are a little ideological asshole does not change any of that.
> ...



The Interstate System was NOT built with you in mind.  It was built to mobilize the Military.  Just like the Autobahn in Germany was built for the same reasons.  We learned from Germany of the 30s.  And to this day, it's heavily subsidized by the Federal and State Governments.  As for the Internet, your Lan has nothing to do with the Internet.  You are talking about an Intranet which is a short closed circuit.  The father to the Internet interconnected the Military and Universities using underground wiring so that if the over the ground telephone systems were knocked out the Military would still be in operation and communication.  Arpnet started it all.  I was involved in a bit of Arpnet in a small way like many hundreds of thousands.


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## bripat9643 (Apr 2, 2018)

Daryl Hunt said:


> bripat9643 said:
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Total bullshit.  Have you got any proof of the above?



Daryl Hunt said:


> The Infrastructure that goes into the power and gas grids are from taxes.  Are you aware that the Gas, Cable, Telephone and Electric Company don't own the lines even though they are the ones that installed them?  And money from Taxes went into putting in those lines.



Wrong.  It's true the government effectively expropriated them, however.  They were built entirely with utility company revenue.



Daryl Hunt said:


> Anytime infrastructure is put into place Government helps with the funding.



Wrong.



Daryl Hunt said:


> Like putting in the new Recharging Stations for electric cars.  Or putting in new electric lines in a rural area.  Or that new Cable TV line that is slowly reaching further into rural America.  While you pray to the "Corporate Gods" you should also be aware that they wouldn't exist with the help from the Socialist side of things.  If Corporate were left to it' s own devices, there are much easier ways to make money than getting power, tv, internet, etc. to the general public.



You mean boondoggles wouldn't exist, and people would have to pay the true cost of the services they use.  

REA is one of the biggest boondoggles ever foisted on the taxpayers.  Most of the people who benefit are wealthy celebrities who live in places like Aspen.


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## Daryl Hunt (Apr 2, 2018)

bripat9643 said:


> Daryl Hunt said:
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Are you aware that the lines are LEASED, not owned by the various companies?  This is why the community can kick any of these companies to the curb and bring in another one.  Yes, the Company installed them but the bulk of the funds to do the work was from the Tax Payer.  It's all part of doing business.  You can't change the fact that almost every facet of your life is affected by the Government unless you are living completely off the Grid.  And even then, some of what you need to survive will still be affected by the Tax Payer and Government.  A Republic has a bit of Socialism in it in order to exist.


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## martybegan (Apr 2, 2018)

Daryl Hunt said:


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Even the newer ones are still only at the high end (25%) efficient when cloudy. 

Why can't you just admit you misread the article?


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## there4eyeM (Apr 2, 2018)

Solar and other renewable energy sources offer the possibility to decentralize and, thus, democratize, power, in more than one way. Control over our lives would be more in our hands and less in those of government, technicians and 'experts'. Anything that works to further and prolong centralization is against our interests.


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## bripat9643 (Apr 2, 2018)

Daryl Hunt said:


> bripat9643 said:
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That's obvious bullshit.  The bulk of the funds to install the lines came from the power utility.  Why would they need taxpayer money when they can charge their customers for the cost?  You're obviously spouting horseshit,  In recent years a number of states, counties, cities have implemented policies where consumers can purchase power from other suppliers.   They do this by forcing the utilities that own the power lines to lease them to other vendors for an approved rate.  The utility that installed the power lines still owns them, however.

It's true that almost every facet of your life is affected by the Government.  That's all the parts of my life that suck.  There is simply no requirment for government to be involved in providing any services other than law enforcement, and I would even argue with that.  Government is a criminal gang that horns in wherever it can.  It doesn't improve life overall.


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## bripat9643 (Apr 2, 2018)

there4eyeM said:


> Solar and other renewable energy sources offer the possibility to decentralize and, thus, democratize, power, in more than one way. Control over our lives would be more in our hands and less in those of government, technicians and 'experts'. Anything that works to further and prolong centralization is against our interests.


No one is stopping you from installing solar.  Go right ahead, spend all your money.


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## bripat9643 (Apr 2, 2018)

martybegan said:


> Daryl Hunt said:
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> > martybegan said:
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Efficiency is not the same thing as power output.  Their efficiency can remain exactly the same, but their power output can decline by 90% on cloudy days.


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## martybegan (Apr 2, 2018)

bripat9643 said:


> martybegan said:
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Ah, a technological word quibble!!!

I did use the term efficient, not efficiency, which I used to describe the drop in yes, power output, expected when the sun isn't shining. 

So my use of the word efficient while not exactly correct, does give the proper impression of a reduction in power provided vs. the maximum value expected.


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## there4eyeM (Apr 2, 2018)

It is investing, not spending, to go solar.


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## Daryl Hunt (Apr 2, 2018)

there4eyeM said:


> It is investing, not spending, to go solar.



He'll change his tune when someone invents a petro powered solar panel.


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