# Would You Cheat on a Spouse?



## William Joyce (Jan 31, 2009)

What if the spouse just refused to have sex?


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## roomy (Jan 31, 2009)

William Joyce said:


> What if the spouse just refused to have sex?



In thought or deed?


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## Againsheila (Jan 31, 2009)

William Joyce said:


> What if the spouse just refused to have sex?



No, never.  If my marriage is that bad, I'll get a divorce and THEN I'll go looking for someone else, but as long as I'm married, I'm faithful.  

I have no respect for anyone that cheats on their spouse.  If you are in a bad marriage, get out, then you can do what you want, but until then, you owe it to you spouse and your own honor to remain faithful.


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## strollingbones (Jan 31, 2009)

Againsheila said:


> William Joyce said:
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hmmm sex is not that important...cheating to me..would be placing someone else above me....not just sexually...

would you really end your marriage over cheating?  seems that is a weak reason to dissolve a marriage....


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## Dis (Jan 31, 2009)

William Joyce said:


> What if the spouse just refused to have sex?



Sounds like the question shoiuld be directed back at you, since you're asking.

Looking for justification?


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## PoliticalChic (Jan 31, 2009)

William Joyce said:


> What if the spouse just refused to have sex?



I know there are a lot of people who say sex shouldn't be a priority in a marriage, but they are wrong.  Sex is the glue that holds a marriage together. 

If a spouse refuses to have sex, you need to find out why.  It's not enough of a reason to say he/she doesn't feel like it.  You shouldn't deny your spouse that physical closeness.  

Worse comes to worse, you should at least let the spouse know that you will have to seek affection elsewhere.


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## Dis (Jan 31, 2009)

PoliticalChic said:


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If it's the glue that holds a marriage together, then what good will it do to seek affection elsewhere?

You make it sound like a business arrangement.  "I'm sorry, but if you don't see things my way, I'll take my business elsewhere."

Eh?


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## StaleBO (Jan 31, 2009)

No


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## Said1 (Jan 31, 2009)

PoliticalChic said:


> William Joyce said:
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I would say intimacy, not exclusive to sex, is the glue that holds a marriage together. With holding intimacy is generally regarded as a measure of control or better, someone who is unable to express hostile emotions. It's a punishment.


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## Sky Dancer (Jan 31, 2009)

Is the topic a simple yes or no, I would or would not cheat on a spouse or is it a discussion about may cause a spouse to have sex with someone outside the marriage?


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## Said1 (Jan 31, 2009)

Jalu said:


> Is the topic a simple yes or no, I would or would not cheat on a spouse or is it a discussion about may cause a spouse to have sex with someone outside the marriage?



i think the thread is somewhat open ended. WJ is usually open to evolved discussion, anyway.

I can see how you might be confused and not answer without clear, concise instructions, though.


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## PoliticalChic (Jan 31, 2009)

Dis said:


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Are you trying to justify a husband or a wife denying affection to his/her spouse?  Unless your husband or wife is treating you horribly or being a bad parent, there should be no reason why you should have sex with him or her.

If you don't behave like a wife or husband, you shouldn't be treated as one.

When you make your vows, sex is implicit.  No sex is grounds for divorce.


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## PoliticalChic (Jan 31, 2009)

Dis said:


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Are you trying to justify a husband or a wife denying affection to his/her spouse?  Unless your husband or wife is treating you horribly or being a bad parent, there should be no reason why you should not have sex with him or her.

If you don't behave like a wife or husband, you shouldn't be treated as one.

When you make your vows, sex is implicit.  Refusing sex is grounds for divorce.


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## Sky Dancer (Jan 31, 2009)

Refusing sex may be a woman's only choice if she doesn't want to bear children to death.  Some religious groups do not believe in contraception.


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## dilloduck (Jan 31, 2009)

Yes. I "cheated" on mine and she "cheated' on me but we both agree that something far different was at the heart of our divorce. I believe monogamous sex is an articial line that society has chosen to draw in the sand. We have decided to make it represent something that goes far deeper.
no--I'm not advocating it, saying that it is not a sin as some choose to believe, nor do I think it's a safe practice. Please include any other disclaimers as necessary but feel free to stick an A on my chest


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## PoliticalChic (Jan 31, 2009)

dilloduck said:


> Yes. I "cheated" on mine and she "cheated' on me but we both agree that something far different was at the heart of our divorce. *I believe monogamous sex is an articial line that society has chosen to draw in the sand.* We have decided to make it represent something that goes far deeper.
> no--I'm not advocating it, saying that it is not a sin as some choose to believe, nor do I think it's a safe practice. Please include any other disclaimers as necessary but feel free to stick an A on my chest



What do you mean by the above?

Nowadays, people would think that "A" stood for your first initial.


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## dilloduck (Jan 31, 2009)

PoliticalChic said:


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> > Yes. I "cheated" on mine and she "cheated' on me but we both agree that something far different was at the heart of our divorce. *I believe monogamous sex is an articial line that society has chosen to draw in the sand.* We have decided to make it represent something that goes far deeper.
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well ya--I'm an asshole too


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## PoliticalChic (Jan 31, 2009)

dilloduck said:


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Well we all make mistakes.  But the smart ones learn from them.  

People often change after they get married.  You can only hope that the your own changes parallel that of the spouse.


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## elvis (Jan 31, 2009)

I would not cheat.  I took an oath.  I won't break it.  I don't believe in divorce, either, unless there is infidelity that won't stop or abuse.


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## dilloduck (Jan 31, 2009)

PoliticalChic said:


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Some people aren't even acting as themselves when they marry in the first place. The terms of the marriage aren't even clear nor sometimes even discussed EXCEPT for one thing----you are to no longer have sex with anyone else. That seems to be crystal clear. ( what sex really is happens to only be known by Bill Clinton.)


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## Dis (Jan 31, 2009)

PoliticalChic said:


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If those are your grounds for divorce, then get your divorce - FIRST.  Don't use sex as a tool by saying "If you don't do give me sex, I'm going to get it elsewhere." and then stay married.


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## William Joyce (Jan 31, 2009)

PoliticalChic said:


> When you make your vows, sex is implicit.  No sex is grounds for divorce.



Yes, some states even codify this.  I'd be interested if that was ever put up as grounds in a complaint, 'cause I've never seen it... typically, it's the result of sex-refusal:  adultery.

Anyway, I hear a lot of, "just get a divorce instead."  BUT divorce is a massively disrputive, expensive, kid-hurting and destructive business.  What if the marriage is OK, but the sex is just not even there in any decent form?  Isn't the better solution a little satisfaction on the side?

It's definitely morally fraught... but I wonder if the French/Europeans don't have the better approach.


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## PoliticalChic (Jan 31, 2009)

dilloduck said:


> Some people aren't even acting as themselves when they marry in the first place. The terms of the marriage aren't even clear nor sometimes even discussed EXCEPT for one thing----you are to no longer have sex with anyone else. That seems to be crystal clear. ( what sex really is happens to only be known by Bill Clinton.)



Oh no!  Lessons from Bill? Frankly, I'd much rather imagine sex between him and Monica than him with Hillary.  Now I will go to one Hail Mary.


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## elvis (Jan 31, 2009)

William Joyce said:


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This came up in Gone with the Wind.


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## Said1 (Jan 31, 2009)

William Joyce said:


> PoliticalChic said:
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given to how hurtful it is, despite the bedroom situation, no. With some exceptions, there is usually a bigger issue at hand. Very common after a baby is born, too.


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## elvis (Jan 31, 2009)

I think sex is usually a barometer for how the marriage is going.


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## PoliticalChic (Jan 31, 2009)

Dis said:


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Why go jump into divorce if a meaningful ultimatum might do the trick?


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## elvis (Jan 31, 2009)

PoliticalChic said:


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if you have to give an ultimatum for sex, it's almost like being turned down because her heart isn't in it.


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## dilloduck (Jan 31, 2009)

William Joyce said:


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I've never been there--What is their approach ?


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## PoliticalChic (Jan 31, 2009)

William Joyce said:


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But the French are very open about their mistresses.  Remember when French President Mitterand died, both his wife and mistress were ostensibly present at his funeral?  

To me, the solution is simple:  just have sex.  What is the big deal?


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## Care4all (Jan 31, 2009)

dilloduck said:


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A wife to bear your children and a mistress on the side for the other stuff...is my understanding....at least in the eyes of the French!!!!  

Care


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## dilloduck (Jan 31, 2009)

PoliticalChic said:


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Religious injunctions and misplaced priorities.


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## elvis (Jan 31, 2009)

PoliticalChic said:


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For some women, the relationship has to be right to be interested.


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## PoliticalChic (Jan 31, 2009)

elvis3577 said:


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Her heart may not be in it, but people can change if they are motivated enough.


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## dilloduck (Jan 31, 2009)

Care4all said:


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And this is commonly accepted as a norm in France and other parts of Europe ?


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## elvis (Jan 31, 2009)

PoliticalChic said:


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agreed


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## PoliticalChic (Jan 31, 2009)

dilloduck said:


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I think misplace priorities is a good analysis.  I've been guilty of that.  Thankfully, my husband made it clear that I was not just a mother, but a wife as well.


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## dilloduck (Jan 31, 2009)

PoliticalChic said:


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People can overcome a "cheating spouse" if motivated enough too. I guess Americans are a bit fuzzy on how monogamous relationships are supposed to function.

I have a relationship with my son that would take some real damage if I went fishing without asking him along. SERIOUSLY.
He would be hurt.


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## elvis (Jan 31, 2009)

dilloduck said:


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I  MIGHT be able to overcome a cheating spouse if she could assure me it was over and wouldn't happen again.


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## Againsheila (Jan 31, 2009)

William Joyce said:


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I have a cousin that divorced her husband on the grounds of "impotency".


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## PoliticalChic (Jan 31, 2009)

dilloduck said:


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Yes, as Mrs. Spitzer and Mrs Clinton have demonstrated.  It's very difficult thing because an important trust was violated.  

Your son sounds like he's very attached to you.  I wish my kids will stay as close when they get into their teenage years.  

I went to a book club meeting during the week and the kids were SHOCKED they couldn't come.  I told them it was for adults only and they looked at me in disbelief.


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## PoliticalChic (Jan 31, 2009)

Againsheila said:


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In New York, you don't even need a valid reason -- it's called no fault divorce.


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## Dis (Jan 31, 2009)

PoliticalChic said:


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If you have to deliver ultimatums, you have no marriage.  You have a dictatorship.


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## dilloduck (Jan 31, 2009)

PoliticalChic said:


> Yes, as Mrs. Spitzer and Mrs Clinton have demonstrated.  It's very difficult thing because an important trust was violated.
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> Your son sounds like he's very attached to you.  I wish my kids will stay as close when they get into their teenage years.
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> I went to a book club meeting during the week and the kids were SHOCKED they couldn't come.  I told them it was for adults only and they looked at me in disbelief.



I used the example to show that perhaps the sexual act is not NEARLY as important as other special trusts that are never even spoken about but are much more sacred.


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## elvis (Jan 31, 2009)

Dis said:


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right, and even if she agrees, it's almost like not having sex because her heart's not in it and she's probably not enjoying it.  It becomes a chore that way.


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## dilloduck (Jan 31, 2009)

elvis3577 said:


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And it's not always "her" that's the uninterested party.


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## elvis (Jan 31, 2009)

dilloduck said:


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well, true. I was just thinking of it as if I were in the situation having a disinterested spouse.


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## PoliticalChic (Jan 31, 2009)

Dis said:


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Are you saying that the person is denying the marital act is a dictator? i.e. he/she is dictating that there will be no sex in this marriage.

Are you contending that sex does not have to be part of a marriage?


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## Toro (Jan 31, 2009)

No.  It's better to get a divorce.

But its tricky if there are children involved.  Its greedy to put your needs first but it is also selfish of your spouse for not attending to your needs in a marriage.  

One should go to marriage counseling first, especially if there are children involved.


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## dilloduck (Jan 31, 2009)

elvis3577 said:


> well, true. I was just thinking of it as if I were in the situation having a disinterested spouse.



I just wanted to make sure that both sexes felt equally guilt-----er --included.


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## PoliticalChic (Jan 31, 2009)

dilloduck said:


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So you would accept a marriage without sex?


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## dilloduck (Jan 31, 2009)

PoliticalChic said:


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Why would that ever be necessary ?


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## Care4all (Jan 31, 2009)

Maybe she is getting her sexual needs met elsewhere and you don't know it???


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## PoliticalChic (Jan 31, 2009)

dilloduck said:


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From what I've read and heard it's usually the woman refusing the sex.  But there are a lot of contributing factors that we didn't discuss.  Is one of or both spouses out of shape or overweight, is there a hygiene problem, are the spouses making them look presentable or they spending the whole day in the same old sweats?  Are both spouses doing their best to make themselves look attractive to their spouse?  Are they willing to spend the time to be a friend to their spouse?  Are they attentive to each other's needs outside of sex?


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## Care4all (Jan 31, 2009)

if she is otherwise a keeper, as you say....then no, you shouldn't cheat....though it may be easier.

The best thing to do is figure out how to have her see you as the stud you were when you first met and were doing it like bunny rabbits....!

problem solved!


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## dilloduck (Jan 31, 2009)

PoliticalChic said:


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It's complex as hell since it is also a biological need and we have used sex and marriage to symbolize so many things. There are plenty of men who lose the "interest" they once had for a variety of reasons.


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## PoliticalChic (Jan 31, 2009)

dilloduck said:


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I've heard men accept it because they say they love the wife and wants to keep the marriage intact.


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## dilloduck (Jan 31, 2009)

PoliticalChic said:


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I'm sure they say that and may even do it. Some may resort to mastubation and find that to be satisfactory.


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## William Joyce (Jan 31, 2009)

elvis3577 said:


> right, and even if she agrees, it's almost like not having sex because her heart's not in it and she's probably not enjoying it.  It becomes a chore that way.



Right.  And if one spouse gets this "sex" only infrequently and as the result of begging, it starts to get really pathetic.  The spouse can claim they're not technically refusing sex, but it might actually be worse than no sex.

One prescription I don't think is likely to work is "communicate with your spouse."  Shit, the thing about sex is, it's the anti-talking.  You can't rationally communicate your way into better sex.  Rational communication is like a cold shower.

I read now about the "sexless marriage," which seems to be a huge thing, much more common that we might think.  And of course, ever since I was a kid I heard the jokes -- from comedians to uncles -- about how marriage ends sex.  It was hard for me to imagine in my teens and 20's -- you have full access to a person of the opposite sex?  Man, you'd be banging all day and all night!  Right?


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## Avatar4321 (Feb 1, 2009)

PoliticalChic said:


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Im sorry, but if sex is all that's keeping the relationship together, there are some major issues the couple needs to work out.

To answer the question. No I wouldnt. there is more to life than sex.


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## RetiredGySgt (Feb 1, 2009)

PoliticalChic said:


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From what I have read in New York you are at the mercy of the Judge. You are not entitled to a divorce and with out convincing the Judge won't get one.


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## RetiredGySgt (Feb 1, 2009)

dilloduck said:


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My wife has not had sex with me since 1999. My illness pretty much destroyed the intimacy and she was never really into sex anyway. At first we stayed married because of the kids. Now we are just used to it and stay together cause we still care about one another in other ways.

Now I would not mind finding another woman that would be willing to love me like my wife does AND include sex. But I am not going out of my way to find that.

I suspect sometimes she has a boyfriend, but it just isn't that important. If she does, I am glad she can find happiness in that manner. Financially we would both have problems if we divorced.


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## editec (Feb 1, 2009)

William Joyce said:


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It depends, I suppose, on the nature of the relationship between the husband and wife.

It is THEY, not WE, who are the final arbitors of this question.


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## Care4all (Feb 1, 2009)

William Joyce said:


> What if the spouse just refused to have sex?



unfortunately, life isn't ALL about YOU....especially if you are married.

You seem to like your wife, outside of the lack of sex...you seem to imply she's a keeper, otherwise....

Then ask yourself, if she found out, that you were committing adultery with a lady on the side....how would she feel or take it and how would you feel or handle it, with her?

Also, what if the lady you were playing around with, fell for you....and wanted you to leave your wife....what would you do?

Can you honestly keep a mistress without having other feelings for her beside sexual satisfaction, so that it does not interfere with your relationship and friendship with your wife?

I don't think many women can do this...if it were them having the affair....they usually get stuck on and end up loving the guy, they are "doing"....imo which would way complicate the marriage....but men seem to be different, I would suppose....?

How would you feel if you found out that your wife was not having sex with you, but she was with someone else on the side?  Could you accept this?

Would it make you feel that you were not the sex stud that you think you are...?  or make you feel differently about her?

What was it that attracted your wife to you in the first place?  What made her want to "do" you?  What turned her on about you, BACK THEN?  Can you get that BACK again?

so many unanswered questions....

care


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## dilloduck (Feb 1, 2009)

editec said:


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Who do you mean by "they" ? Isn't this a personal question that must be answered by the person contemplating it.


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## jillian (Feb 1, 2009)

Dis said:


> You make it sound like a business arrangement.  "I'm sorry, but if you don't see things my way, I'll take my business elsewhere."
> 
> Eh?




Spoken like someone who's never been married.

There are a lot of reasons to be/stay married to someone. Sex is only one.


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## editec (Feb 1, 2009)

dilloduck said:


> Who do you mean by "they" ? Isn't this a personal question that must be answered by the person contemplating it.


 
Yes, of course. 

But I think you are presuming that I did not answer that question for myself.

I did, and then I also answered it such that you know my expectations for other people as well. I expect them to define their OWN marriages, and do NOT think that the rest of us have any right to judge them as long as they play by their OWN rules.

Hence my statement:



> It depends, I suppose, on the nature of the relationship between the husband and wife.


 
You apparently believe that every marriage lives by some clearly defined rules of society.

I doubt any of them are so cookie cuttered, although I understand perfectly that the laws of the land, and most people would disagree with me.

I consider every marriage a PERSONAL contract between two people.

I don't think marriage is the government's business to be honest.

That is ALSO why I believe in civil unions which merely define that marriage as a contract as it regards property rights and so forth.

What happens in their love lives is THEIR business, not mine or yours or the government's.


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## Dis (Feb 1, 2009)

jillian said:


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Actually, April 1, 1995, so that'd be almost 14 years.. But nice try on your part.


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## dilloduck (Feb 1, 2009)

> You apparently believe that every marriage lives by some clearly defined rules of society.



Far from it. They are all unique and complex arrangements between two unique and complex people yet there are SOME laws that pertain to some aspects of the marriage contract. In America sex is one of those aspects.

As far as the decision to cheat or not, that usually isn't a decision that a married couple gets together and decides. Should an individual decide to cheat there are high legal consequences in addition to the consequences it has on the marriage and all those affected by the marriage.


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## Care4all (Feb 1, 2009)

RetiredGySgt said:


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DAMN IT RGS!

This is the second or the third time you have just thrown me for a loop in a post....and I find myself feeling for you...your loneliness and subtle pain.... 

You're suppose to be the enemy!!!!  lollollol  ....  (well, i am suppose to be your enemy, being a liberal and all, but truly not so much that you are suppose to be mine.)

i just wish there was something you could do, to change your situation with your wife, who you trust and love, even if only in a friendship kind of way....life is so short to live it in 'nothingness' ....'emotionless'....even with ailments imo.

Care


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## dilloduck (Feb 1, 2009)

Care4all said:


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They still care about each other in other ways. I don't see it as the total "nothing" you describe.


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## Care4all (Feb 1, 2009)

dilloduck said:


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you are right dillo!

That was wrong of me to imply.  I just got the sense that he may be 'temporarily" thinking such...?

Care


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## dilloduck (Feb 1, 2009)

Care4all said:


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If I had to suffer the consequences of everything I temporarily think about------


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## random3434 (Feb 1, 2009)

No I wouldn't. 

I wouldn't be able to look them in the eye. The mistrust and lies, how could you do that to someone who is supposed to be your best friend?


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## dilloduck (Feb 1, 2009)

Echo Zulu said:


> No I wouldn't.
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> I wouldn't be able to look them in the eye. The mistrust and lies, how could you do that to someone who is supposed to be your best friend?



I think some very serious issues precede the act--I don't think we're talking about some spur of the moment whim here.


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## editec (Feb 1, 2009)

dilloduck said:


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## dilloduck (Feb 1, 2009)

editec said:


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## jillian (Feb 1, 2009)

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Then presumably you should know better.


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## Dis (Feb 1, 2009)

jillian said:


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I know that you don't dump an ultimatum like THAT in someones lap that you profess to care about.

Because doing so makes it all better, right?


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## jillian (Feb 1, 2009)

Dis said:


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But it's ok to tell your spouse you won't have sex with them anymore? As I said, there are a lot of reasons to stay married. Sex is only one. But I wouldn't find it acceptable to be deprived of sex in a relationship.

My *point*, and my only point, was that relationships are complex and the reason I assumed you weren't married is because your approach was so simplistic and judgmental. 

Me? I thought the question was actually an interesting one and deserved more than to get blown off.


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## dilloduck (Feb 1, 2009)

jillian said:


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> > jillian said:
> ...



Getting blown off would require a whole new thread I think !


----------



## Dis (Feb 1, 2009)

jillian said:


> Dis said:
> 
> 
> > jillian said:
> ...



Ah, but your "assumption" based on my "opinion" isn't the least bit judgemental?  Maybe I simply haven't been married enough times?  I mean.. Once is so few..how could I possibly dare have a differing opinion?

Pul-eeze.

You're doing that hypocritical bit again.


----------



## jillian (Feb 1, 2009)

*yawn*


----------



## 007 (Feb 1, 2009)

Dis said:


> I know that you don't dump an ultimatum like THAT in someones lap that you profess to care about.
> 
> Because doing so makes it all better, right?



I would. If a spouse "cares," as you say, about the other one, then there shouldn't be any holding out on sex. If one person in a relationship has acquired some reason why NOT to have sex with the other, then they need to separate if the other person still wants sex. You can NOT have a marriage without sex.

WJ, is it ever OK to cheat on a spouse? No. If you're not getting any, get a divorce and find someone new, but don't cheat on your spouse.


----------



## William Joyce (Feb 1, 2009)

Care4all said:


> William Joyce said:
> 
> 
> > What if the spouse just refused to have sex?
> ...



All fair questions.

And by the way, why do you assume I'm talking about my own life?  Clearly, I'm talking about a _good friend of mine._


----------



## dilloduck (Feb 1, 2009)

Pale Rider said:


> Dis said:
> 
> 
> > I know that you don't dump an ultimatum like THAT in someones lap that you profess to care about.
> ...



Thousands of people have marriage without sex, Pale.


----------



## Terry (Feb 1, 2009)

William Joyce said:


> What if the spouse just refused to have sex?


 
Look if you're not happy in a marriage and it's about not getting enough sex..Then why the hell stay married?  Get a f'king divorce! Cheating is for a person who has major character flaws! 

Divorce already, you married the person, no sex, oh well guess you'll be either getting a divorce or using your hand a lot.


----------



## Dis (Feb 1, 2009)

Pale Rider said:


> Dis said:
> 
> 
> > I know that you don't dump an ultimatum like THAT in someones lap that you profess to care about.
> ...



Ultimatums escalate problems to begin with.  Ultimatums about sensitive issues such as that are even worse.  If you aren't getting any, and you can't talk about it, or work thru it without putting the other person on a bigger defense by saying "If you don't...I will...", then as I said.. you don't have a marriage.  Get a divorce.  But don't threaten to sleep with someone else just to get what you want while you're still married.


----------



## 007 (Feb 1, 2009)

dilloduck said:


> Pale Rider said:
> 
> 
> > Dis said:
> ...



Yeah well maybe the elderly and such, but not people in their prime.


----------



## William Joyce (Feb 1, 2009)

RetiredGySgt said:


> dilloduck said:
> 
> 
> > PoliticalChic said:
> ...



Now this seems to be a pretty enlightened mindest to me (though I am sorry to hear of your circumstance).  I can think a few couples (not my own, really) that stay together, and you just kind of get the sense that if one or the other has a little something on the side, it's just not mentioned or is accepted.  And like with RGS, the cuckolded spouse might not even want to know, or, if they found it, would be kind of resigned to it.  

I had an aunt and uncle where the aunt blimped up and apparently stopped having sex.  So, he fooled around with his secretary.  I would have thought the women in our family would have been mad.  But they weren't.  Actually, the took HIS SIDE!  Even my more-Catholic-than-thou grandmother!  She would just cluck and say, "what did Mary expect?" (They divorced, he got remarried and divorced again, and now they live together, unmarried.  Weird.)

So, I guess infidelity isn't always that shocking.  In marriages that are on their way down anyway and divorce is on the horizon, it's only adultery in the barest of technical senses.  But even in marriages that will continue on, it's sometimes seen as a "well, what did anyone expect?" situation.  

That, I think, partially answers the question of, "what if your spouse found out?"  Surely most wouldn't be exactly pleased, but some, like RGS, might not be overly surprised.

RGS, how would you have reacted if your wife had come to you and said she'd like to find physical satisfaction elsewhere?


----------



## Dis (Feb 1, 2009)

jillian said:


> *yawn*



Typical.  One would think you could do better by now.

Which marriage are YOU on, that you have so much more experience that you can tell someone else their views are wrong?


----------



## dilloduck (Feb 1, 2009)

Terry said:


> Cheating is for a person who has major character flaws!



hogwash--It's a pretty shallow rule in the first place.


----------



## 007 (Feb 1, 2009)

Dis said:


> Pale Rider said:
> 
> 
> > Dis said:
> ...



Agreed. Triy and find out WHY said person doesn't want to have sex and get past it. But if it's turned into a permanent situation, the 'ultimatum' would stand.

I can tell you right now, I can cook my own food, do my own laundry, I have plenty of money, and I don't need anyone to help me. So what do I need a woman for? Sex. Plain and simple. Of course there's companionship, but that can become tiresome also and you need some space. Sex is a huge component of marriage. It's where intimacy is born and held. No sex, then the marriage will inevitably fall apart.


----------



## dilloduck (Feb 1, 2009)

Pale Rider said:


> Dis said:
> 
> 
> > Pale Rider said:
> ...




I disagree----intimacy can be born and held wherever the relationship chooses.
Intimacy is just the things that two people agree to share exclusively with each other.


----------



## 007 (Feb 1, 2009)

dilloduck said:


> Pale Rider said:
> 
> 
> > Dis said:
> ...



Well I won't disagree as such with you, but I will say that 'intimacy' could be defined many different ways by many different people.

To me, sex is about as 'intimate" of an act one can have with another.


----------



## Terry (Feb 1, 2009)

Too each their own but it doesn't make sense if you're going to cheat then why be married?  Come on, is the person afraid to divorce? Is it they will lose money if they divorce? Is it the concern over Children?  Either one of them shows me that they are selfish people and only care about themselves!  Don't marry, don't cheat, or get a divorce!  

There are medical reason's for a low or non-existant Libdo, maybe if the spouse talks openly to the other and a doctor maybe something can be done, but they don't because the person who cheats wants that as an excuse to satifsy it's own selfish fantasy.


----------



## dilloduck (Feb 1, 2009)

Pale Rider said:


> dilloduck said:
> 
> 
> > Pale Rider said:
> ...



So it seems in our society but I've had sexual relationships that left much to be desired in the way of satifying my needs for imtimacy.


----------



## 007 (Feb 1, 2009)

dilloduck said:


> Pale Rider said:
> 
> 
> > dilloduck said:
> ...



I'm sorry to hear that. I've had relationships where my need for intimacy was OVER satisfied...  ... 

Damn nymph... wish a had her now...


----------



## dilloduck (Feb 1, 2009)

Pale Rider said:


> dilloduck said:
> 
> 
> > Pale Rider said:
> ...



just escaped from one a few years back---whewwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww


----------



## 007 (Feb 1, 2009)

dilloduck said:


> Pale Rider said:
> 
> 
> > dilloduck said:
> ...



Ya never know how good you had it 'til it's gone...


----------



## RodISHI (Feb 1, 2009)

"Would You Cheat on a Spouse?" Nope. I likes mine a lot and I'm hoping to keep him feeling the same for me.


----------



## dilloduck (Feb 1, 2009)

RodISHI said:


> "Would You Cheat on a Spouse?" Nope. I likes mine a lot and I'm hoping to keep him feeling the same for me.



Well hell----if there's no reason whatsoever to cheat it would be a mightly foolish risk.


----------



## Sky Dancer (Feb 1, 2009)

Anyone who answered 'yes, I would cheat' is either a "gross attention seeker" or an idiot.  Why would _anyone _have a serious conversation about this topic in a thread like this?


----------



## dilloduck (Feb 1, 2009)

Jalu said:


> Anyone who answered 'yes, I would cheat' is either a gross attnention seeker or an idiot.



great in depth analysis there, Jalu !


----------



## Dis (Feb 1, 2009)

dilloduck said:


> Jalu said:
> 
> 
> > Anyone who answered 'yes, I would cheat' is either a gross attnention seeker or an idiot.
> ...



Oh, yes.  The attention to detail, and depth of his/her contributing posts is simply beyond compare.


----------



## Sky Dancer (Feb 1, 2009)

See what I mean?


No interest in discussing the topic, is there?    We either tell stories or discuss it hypothetically.

Hypothetically,  life circumstances can bring some people to a crossroads where cheating on a spouse is a distinct possibility.    No one talks about this honestly unless they want to wear a scarlet letter A on their forehead.


----------



## dilloduck (Feb 1, 2009)

Jalu said:


> See what I mean?
> 
> 
> No interest in discussing the topic, is there?



There about 100 post here all on topic---pay attention.


----------



## Sky Dancer (Feb 1, 2009)

Hey, no problem.  I  don't have to post here.


----------



## dilloduck (Feb 1, 2009)

Jalu said:


> Hey, no problem.  I  don't have to post here.



Promise ?


----------



## 007 (Feb 1, 2009)

Jalu said:


> See what I mean?
> 
> 
> No interest in discussing the topic, is there?    We either tell stories or discuss it hypothetically.
> ...



Really? Seems to me people have been very candid here talking about it...


----------



## Skull Pilot (Feb 1, 2009)

See the trick to cheating on your spouse is to cheat on your spouse with your spouse.

Have your wife put on a wig and wear something slinky and "pick her up" in the bar of a nice hotel. Hell you can even leave $100 on the dresser on the way out.


----------



## xsited1 (Feb 1, 2009)

I have and I might do it again.  

I have no regrets.  She's always so smug about it.  I still remember the night like it was yesterday.  I really try.  I do.  But I'm just not good enough.  I always lose.  It's like she has this curse over me.  And when her sister called, it gave me both motive and opportunity.  I quickly switched a few dominos.  Just enough to go up by 10 points.  In the end, she won the match but that one innocent little cheat allowed me to beat her that one time.  It felt good.


----------



## Care4all (Feb 1, 2009)

xsited1 said:


> I have and I might do it again.
> 
> I have no regrets.  She's always so smug about it.  I still remember the night like it was yesterday.  I really try.  I do.  But I'm just not good enough.  I always lose.  It's like she has this curse over me.  And when her sister called, it gave me both motive and opportunity.  I quickly switched a few dominos.  Just enough to go up by 10 points.  In the end, she won the match but that one innocent little cheat allowed me to beat her that one time.  It felt good.



oh geez louise, you almost gave me a heart attack X!!!!!  All i could think of as reading that was....but, but, but he said she reads the site....how could he be telling us this....???

where the heck is the 'slap you upside of the head' smiley????

care


----------



## editec (Feb 1, 2009)

dilloduck said:


> Pale Rider said:
> 
> 
> > Dis said:
> ...


 
Millions if you exclude masterbation, would be my guess.

A lot of people, I think, don't like to have sex with married people.


----------



## catzmeow (Feb 1, 2009)

William Joyce said:


> What if the spouse just refused to have sex?



If the spouse is refusing to have sex, there are bigger problems in my marriage than just sex.


----------



## xsited1 (Feb 1, 2009)

Care4all said:


> xsited1 said:
> 
> 
> > I have and I might do it again.
> ...



I'm in enough trouble as it is.  Next time we play dominos, she's gonna watch me like a hawk!


----------



## catzmeow (Feb 1, 2009)

William Joyce said:


> Right.  And if one spouse gets this "sex" only infrequently and as the result of begging, it starts to get really pathetic.  The spouse can claim they're not technically refusing sex, but it might actually be worse than no sex.
> 
> One prescription I don't think is likely to work is "communicate with your spouse."  Shit, the thing about sex is, it's the anti-talking.  You can't rationally communicate your way into better sex.  Rational communication is like a cold shower.
> 
> I read now about the "sexless marriage," which seems to be a huge thing, much more common that we might think.  And of course, ever since I was a kid I heard the jokes -- from comedians to uncles -- about how marriage ends sex.  It was hard for me to imagine in my teens and 20's -- you have full access to a person of the opposite sex?  Man, you'd be banging all day and all night!  Right?


People need sex.  If you aren't getting sex from your wife, and she is utterly uninterested in the concept, then level with her:

You need sex.
You aren't getting any from her.
This situation needs to change, or you will pursue other options, sexually speaking.

Why is it so hard to envision being honest about what you want and need from your spouse?


----------



## editec (Feb 1, 2009)

*William notes:*



> In marriages that are on their way down anyway and divorce is on the horizon, it's only adultery in the barest of technical senses.


 
Nicely put.

True...but the cockhold's sense of being betrayed _as a person_ is probably real enough.

If lust has died between a couple, honestly trying to discuss the issue, _sans_ ultimatums and recriminations, _might_ help keep the loving relationship alive, even if the lust is seeking other outlets.

Don't count on it, of course, because, let's face it, men and women tend to see love and lust very differently, William.

Just my personal observation and certainly a generalization with all the flaws that any man's generalizations about an entire gender certainly have, but in my experience, _to most women_ sex and love are much more aligned than with _most_ men.

Men really don't think of love and sex necessarily being related at all. 

If they happen to coincide so much the better, but sex without emotional commitment is very much part of our potential natures

Women, it seems to me, cannot imagine that they can have sex with someone they don't have at least some slight liking for, and so I think they assume that neither can their men.

Shit when men are in their season, as Lenny Bruce once said:

_Men would make love to mud if that was all that was available._

Whereas, most women, would have to at least _sort of_ like the mud, first.

_Your_ mileage, naturally, may vary depending on driving conditions.


----------



## editec (Feb 1, 2009)

Jalu said:


> See what I mean?
> 
> 
> No interest in discussing the topic, is there? We either tell stories or discuss it hypothetically.
> ...


 
Very well said, Jalu, and thank you for saying it, too.

Absolutely fidelity, if one believes the experts, at least, is rather rare in either gender.

Being completely honest about such an intimate detail in one's life, _in this venue? _

_Nah!_

We have people here with the maturity level of junior high school students.

They could no more handle adults talking honestly about such things than they can handle differences of opinion about things of a far less intimate nature.

I'll tell what I presume though...

I presume there is probably not a single person on this board over 40 who has not _EVER _cheated on somebody..either a boy/girlfriend, a spouse or a long term relationship.

Perhaps they never consumated their infidelity, but the infidelity is really the mind games of people just starting to mix it up, anyway, isn't it?

Seems to me the sex is the merely the final act of infidelity, not the entirety of it.

As William so nicely put it when trying to describe relationships in trouble:,



> ... on their way down anyway and divorce is on the horizon, it's only adultery in the barest of technical senses.


 
Few of us, I suspect, have not taken refuge in such rationalizations to justify our own transgressions from our own sense of who we want to imagine we really are.


----------



## Amanda (Feb 1, 2009)

I just wanted to say that I've been following this thread and I'm very impressed with how you all have been handling it. Very mature, thoughtful discussion. I wish I had something to add, but I'm not married and I don't have any plans for it any time soon. And I kinda doubt anyone would take my insights on relationships very seriously anyway.


----------



## PoliticalChic (Feb 1, 2009)

Skull Pilot said:


> See the trick to cheating on your spouse is to cheat on your spouse with your spouse.
> 
> Have your wife put on a wig and wear something slinky and "pick her up" in the bar of a nice hotel. Hell you can even leave $100 on the dresser on the way out.



I think you were being only half-facetious here.  

A couple needs to have a sense of imagination to keep that "fire" going.

With today's fast and furious lifestyle, sex is put into the corner, sort of as an afterthought by many women.  Remember how sex was always on your mind when you were dating? But life became a little bit more complicated with work, family, children and you don't feel like it much because you were run down and tired.  You really need to make time for it.


----------



## Care4all (Feb 1, 2009)

Well, I still think ultimatums are NOT the right way to go and do not solve the problems that obviously exist, and unless the root of the problem is found, the problem will continue to exist....no ultimatum will change that imho.

So, is she tired, does she work full time then take care of the kids full time and the house full time?  If so, take a 3 day getaway to a hotel drop the kids with the grandparents, let her relax the first day...show her how much you love her and how attractive you find her but don't push the sex till she is rested...

Try to make her initiate the sex with you....by making her feel pretty, secure, unconditionally loved the way you once did when you were dating. (if that fails get her drunk)* 

have you done something that has really hurt her and this is why she keeps her distance?  If so, let her know how sorry you are and reassure her that it was  a mistake you wont repeat....


----------



## PoliticalChic (Feb 1, 2009)

An ultimatum would be a last resort.  Perhaps I didn't make myself clear on that.

Like you said Care, a getaway would be a great way to rekindle that fire. 

Buy her some sexy lingerie, leave her love notes all over the house, go through the day teasing her...
A woman usually likes the seduction.  Just think of all the things you used to do to win her heart. 

It could also be a medical problem in which case she needs to see her OB/GYN to discuss.


----------



## dilloduck (Feb 1, 2009)

Care4all said:


> Well, I still think ultimatums are NOT the right way to go and do not solve the problems that obviously exist, and unless the root of the problem is found, the problem will continue to exist....no ultimatum will change that imho.
> 
> So, is she tired, does she work full time then take care of the kids full time and the house full time?  If so, take a 3 day getaway to a hotel drop the kids with the grandparents, let her relax the first day...show her how much you love her and how attractive you find her but don't push the sex till she is rested...
> 
> ...



The truth about why a spouse is no longer interested in sex may be more intimate than sex itself but I would definitely at least ask the question. If the only answer I get is something as shallow as " I just don't feel like it"  I would assume she not only doesn't feel like it  but also doesn't care to explain it either. Isn't that a breach of intimacy ?


----------



## Skull Pilot (Feb 1, 2009)

PoliticalChic said:


> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> > See the trick to cheating on your spouse is to cheat on your spouse with your spouse.
> ...



you're only half right as i am being 100% serious.

if you haven't tried it you should.  that little game i described is a lot of fun.


----------



## Sky Dancer (Feb 1, 2009)

I'm willing to discuss this topic _hypothetically[/I or we can discuss the topic in literature.  It's the stuff of great fiction and drama._


----------



## Sky Dancer (Feb 1, 2009)

Care4all said:


> Well, I still think ultimatums are NOT the right way to go and do not solve the problems that obviously exist, and unless the root of the problem is found, the problem will continue to exist....no ultimatum will change that imho.
> 
> So, is she tired, does she work full time then take care of the kids full time and the house full time?  If so, take a 3 day getaway to a hotel drop the kids with the grandparents, let her relax the first day...show her how much you love her and how attractive you find her but don't push the sex till she is rested...
> 
> ...



Ultimatums don't work.  If one spouse is in a position of pressuring the other to have unwanted sex, or to justify infidelity,  the relationship is over.

It presumes that flaw in the relationship is all about one partner saying no to sex.

If sex was previously enjoyed by both parties then something happened to set it off.  There could be numerous reasons.    If their is a buy in--to sex as a value in a healthy relationship then it's possible to investigate what's causing the problem and see if it can be remedied.

Some conditions make sex impossible.    If there is no friendship or intimacy in the relationship than temporary or permanent physical or psychological conditions that make the partners turn off to one another can bring an end to the relationship altogether.


----------



## Againsheila (Feb 1, 2009)

editec said:


> Jalu said:
> 
> 
> > See what I mean?
> ...



You lose.   I'm 52 and the only person I've ever had sex with is my husband.  I came close with a boyfriend in college, but he was talking marriage.  Imagine my surprise when the very next day he was dating a blond bimbo.

Both my husband and I have been faithful to each other through 27 years of marriage.  I know many couples that have also remained faithful to each other.  Maybe it's the people you hang out with?   I imagine like follows like.


----------



## Sky Dancer (Feb 1, 2009)

You make a ton of assumptions that are wrong, sheila.  Even Jimmy Carter 'lusted in his mind'.


----------



## catzmeow (Feb 1, 2009)

> I'll tell what I presume though...
> 
> *I presume there is probably not a single person on this board over 40 who has not EVER cheated on somebody..either a boy/girlfriend, a spouse or a long term relationship.*
> 
> ...



While I don't disagree that emotional infidelity can be just as wounding as physical infidelity, I disagree with your assessment here.  

I would say it would be rare to find an adult who  hasn't at least fantasized about another person.  However, I've never cheated, emotionally or otherwise, and I would suggest I'm far from alone in that category.  I don't believe my boyfriend has ever done so, either.  

Some people have integrity.  Others don't.


----------



## catzmeow (Feb 1, 2009)

dilloduck said:


> The truth about why a spouse is no longer interested in sex may be more intimate than sex itself but I would definitely at least ask the question. If the only answer I get is something as shallow as " I just don't feel like it"  I would assume she not only doesn't feel like it  but also doesn't care to explain it either. Isn't that a breach of intimacy ?



She may not know completely why she isn't interested.  For women, sex is intricately connected to emotions.  I know that I checked out, sexually, for a while with my ex-husband because of his continual lies and betrayals.  I couldn't count on him to be truthful or to do what he said he was going to do, and emotionally, I didn't want to be that close to him physically.

However, there can be a host of physical reasons, as well:

Hypothyroidism
Depression
painful intercourse

Beyond that, women who go through childbirth experience drastic changes in how they view their bodies, themselves, and sex can change, too.  It isn't so much being tired and overstressed by having children as it is seeing yourself so differently...the changes that time and being a mom make on your body are huge.  Definitely, it can be hard to stay connected to your sexuality.

But, I think you should try and talk, openly, about this stuff, if you can.


----------



## catzmeow (Feb 1, 2009)

Againsheila said:


> Both my husband and I have been faithful to each other through 27 years of marriage.



That you know of...I know you can speak for you, but you can never totally speak for another person.  Trust me on this one.


----------



## Care4all (Feb 1, 2009)

dilloduck said:


> Care4all said:
> 
> 
> > Well, I still think ultimatums are NOT the right way to go and do not solve the problems that obviously exist, and unless the root of the problem is found, the problem will continue to exist....no ultimatum will change that imho.
> ...



oh, i think asking the question and listening to the response will be very telling...

And asking the question should bring an intimate moment, yet without sex,  between the two when discussing it, if honesty prevails....

talking is good....

if she just doesn't answer, then try to pry it out....still better than ignoring it...


----------



## Sky Dancer (Feb 1, 2009)

If you cheated on a spouse, would you admit it?   Why or why not?


----------



## Care4all (Feb 1, 2009)

Jalu said:


> If you cheated on a spouse, would you admit it?   Why or why not?



that's hard to answer, because i am certain each individual case would be different....

none of us are precisely like another...

if the hubby was a maniac and apt to hit me....then NO!( just file for the divorce now)

if the hubby was sick...needed healing time... then, NO!(let him heal, then discuss)

if it was a one time mess up, never to happen again type thing...then NO! (wouldnt want to hurt him)

if it was an on going affair, then YES...(last hope in saving relationship if you want to save it, if you dont want to save it, then NO, it'll cost you less money when divorcing)

there are just so many different scenarios that warrent different or opposing answers, and each case or couple would be different with eachother as well....


----------



## tobetbaa (Feb 1, 2009)

Do not cheat, haven't you seen that Michael Douglas movie, what was it called again?


----------



## Sky Dancer (Feb 1, 2009)

Thanks Care--

I liked your answer.  I think confessing is a bad idea, unless the spouse is already suspicious and guesses.  Then, it's best to 'fess up'.


----------



## tigerbob (Feb 1, 2009)

William Joyce said:


> What if the spouse just refused to have sex?



What if he / she did?


----------



## PoliticalChic (Feb 1, 2009)

Skull Pilot said:


> you're only half right as i am being 100% serious.
> 
> if you haven't tried it you should.  that little game i described is a lot of fun.



Could be a very interesting Valentine's Day...Thanks for the tip.


----------



## Care4all (Feb 1, 2009)

tobetbaa said:


> Do not cheat, haven't you seen that Michael Douglas movie, what was it called again?



FATAL Attraction


----------



## Sky Dancer (Feb 1, 2009)

tigerbob said:


> William Joyce said:
> 
> 
> > What if the spouse just refused to have sex?
> ...



I'm looking forward to the answer.


----------



## PoliticalChic (Feb 1, 2009)

tobetbaa said:


> Do not cheat, haven't you seen that Michael Douglas movie, what was it called again?



Fatal Attraction:  Every Cheater's Nightmare.


----------



## tigerbob (Feb 1, 2009)

Jalu said:


> tigerbob said:
> 
> 
> > William Joyce said:
> ...



Me too, but not holding my breath.


----------



## Sky Dancer (Feb 1, 2009)

Fatal Attraction--the morality play.


----------



## PoliticalChic (Feb 1, 2009)

tigerbob said:


> William Joyce said:
> 
> 
> > What if the spouse just refused to have sex?
> ...



That would be a serious issue.


----------



## tigerbob (Feb 1, 2009)

PoliticalChic said:


> tigerbob said:
> 
> 
> > William Joyce said:
> ...



Depends who he / she refused to have sex with.


----------



## Sky Dancer (Feb 1, 2009)

Seriously?  Come on now.  Saying no once and awhile is a serious issue?


----------



## catzmeow (Feb 1, 2009)

Jalu said:


> Seriously?  Come on now.  Saying no once and awhile is a serious issue?



Once in a while?  Nope.

For months at a time?  Hell, yeah.


----------



## PoliticalChic (Feb 1, 2009)

I don't think William was talking about once in while.  It sounds like the refusals were on a consistent basis.


----------



## tigerbob (Feb 1, 2009)

PoliticalChic said:


> I don't think William was talking about once in while.  It sounds like the refusals were on a consistent basis.



Oh - I didn't get that impression from the OP.  Different matter if this is the case.


----------



## PoliticalChic (Feb 1, 2009)

tigerbob said:


> PoliticalChic said:
> 
> 
> > tigerbob said:
> ...



Wife refusing to have sex with husband.
Husband refusing to have sex with wife.


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## tigerbob (Feb 1, 2009)

PoliticalChic said:


> tigerbob said:
> 
> 
> > PoliticalChic said:
> ...



No 3rd parties involved?  UPS guy?  Pool boy?


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## Care4all (Feb 1, 2009)

more than likely, William's wife is not having an affair on him, thus no sex with him, and more than likely willaim didn't do anything wrong to warrent the sexless life, and more than likely she just isn't feeling good about herself....her own looks and how they have changed, even if they haven't changed that much....cuz you all know how women can do that to ourselves and be our own worst enemy when being critical about ourselves....

He needs to make her feel sexy again....and get her to take walks with him, to boost self esteem and energy levels!

I know when i lose just 5 lbs, and think I am looking pretty good, the hubby doesn't stand a prayer of getting any sleep!

It could be something as little as this, that gets her going again!


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## Gunny (Feb 1, 2009)

Dis said:


> PoliticalChic said:
> 
> 
> > Dis said:
> ...



Bullshit.  Except where the state has decided to tax you for it, marriage, as a REAL institution is a matter of the heart.  If one or both no longer love the other, that piece of paper isn't worth spit, and arguing that words on a sheet of paper should be the basis of not just saying "f--k it" in a loveless marriage is kinda lame.


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## Gunny (Feb 1, 2009)

PoliticalChic said:


> Dis said:
> 
> 
> > PoliticalChic said:
> ...



Try that on me.  I don't do ultimatums.  Dish one MY way, and you best be planning on carrying through with your threat because you WILL get called.


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## Dis (Feb 1, 2009)

Gunny said:


> Dis said:
> 
> 
> > PoliticalChic said:
> ...



Bullshit nothing. If your marriage is to the point where you're dropping ultimatums such as "if you don't put out, I'm going elsewhere", rather than talking/working through it, then your marriage IS done, and you should just get the divorce, rather than staying married.


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## Gunny (Feb 1, 2009)

PoliticalChic said:


> Dis said:
> 
> 
> > PoliticalChic said:
> ...



Delivering an ultimatum is definitely a control thing.


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## dilloduck (Feb 1, 2009)

Gunny said:


> PoliticalChic said:
> 
> 
> > Dis said:
> ...



So is " I don't want to have sex with you again"


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## Dis (Feb 1, 2009)

dilloduck said:


> Gunny said:
> 
> 
> > PoliticalChic said:
> ...



No, that's just generally an ego blow.


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## tigerbob (Feb 1, 2009)

Dis said:


> dilloduck said:
> 
> 
> > Gunny said:
> ...



Does an ego blow count as sex?


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## manu1959 (Feb 1, 2009)

dilloduck said:


> Gunny said:
> 
> 
> > PoliticalChic said:
> ...



you don't cheat on that shit.....you fire it.....


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## dilloduck (Feb 1, 2009)

Dis said:


> dilloduck said:
> 
> 
> > Gunny said:
> ...



that too


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## xsited1 (Feb 1, 2009)

Here's the Southern solution:



> Man walks into his bedroom with a sheep under his arm.
> 
> His wife is lying in bed reading.
> 
> ...


----------



## Dis (Feb 1, 2009)

tigerbob said:


> Dis said:
> 
> 
> > dilloduck said:
> ...



Leave it to a man to focus on only one word out of the entire sentence...


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## dilloduck (Feb 1, 2009)

manu1959 said:


> dilloduck said:
> 
> 
> > Gunny said:
> ...



not much point in keeping that on your payroll .
Is exclusive and "enough"  sex part of the marriage contract ?


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## Gunny (Feb 1, 2009)

Dis said:


> Gunny said:
> 
> 
> > Dis said:
> ...



Meanwhile secluding yourself from seeking at a minimum sex, optimally a better relationship until the i's are dotted and the t's crossed on the paperwork?  I think not.  

If the marriage is over, it's over and I don't need a piece of paper to clue me in, nor give me permission to get on with my life.

I don't know how many other Biblethumper states are like this, but in VA, you had to be legally separated for a year before the court would grant you a divorce.  You going to just sit around and stare at the wall for a year?

Sorry.  The marriage was over LONG before then.  I'm not going to make myself even more miserable than I was the last couple of years of that marriage by perpetuating my seclusion to satisfy someone's overly-moralistic set of rules based on a piece of paper and a black-or-white only mindset.


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## Gunny (Feb 1, 2009)

dilloduck said:


> Gunny said:
> 
> 
> > PoliticalChic said:
> ...



I consider that pretty-much an ultimatum.


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## manu1959 (Feb 1, 2009)

Gunny said:


> dilloduck said:
> 
> 
> > Gunny said:
> ...



depends how fat she has gotten......


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## Gunny (Feb 1, 2009)

tigerbob said:


> Dis said:
> 
> 
> > dilloduck said:
> ...



According to the Honorable Mr Clinton, anything that blows or smokes is NOT defined as "sexual relations."


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## dilloduck (Feb 1, 2009)

manu1959 said:


> Gunny said:
> 
> 
> > dilloduck said:
> ...



in that case it might be a reprieve


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## Gunny (Feb 1, 2009)

manu1959 said:


> Gunny said:
> 
> 
> > dilloduck said:
> ...



  a point to consider.


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## Said1 (Feb 1, 2009)

manu1959 said:


> Gunny said:
> 
> 
> > dilloduck said:
> ...



I read somewhere (reliable internets source) that a man's penis shrinks as he gets fatter. Is that true, or is it just harder to access?


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## Care4all (Feb 1, 2009)

Said1 said:


> manu1959 said:
> 
> 
> > Gunny said:
> ...



TOUCHE!


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## dilloduck (Feb 1, 2009)

Said1 said:


> manu1959 said:
> 
> 
> > Gunny said:
> ...



no --the old one is just shed and a larger one replaces it.


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## Said1 (Feb 1, 2009)

dilloduck said:


> Said1 said:
> 
> 
> > manu1959 said:
> ...



You wish.


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## manu1959 (Feb 1, 2009)

Said1 said:


> manu1959 said:
> 
> 
> > Gunny said:
> ...



wouldn't know ...... i don't fuck fat men....you?


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## Said1 (Feb 1, 2009)

manu1959 said:


> Said1 said:
> 
> 
> > manu1959 said:
> ...


I thought that was obvious.


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## manu1959 (Feb 1, 2009)

Said1 said:


> manu1959 said:
> 
> 
> > Said1 said:
> ...



ya....you are too hot for that......


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## dilloduck (Feb 1, 2009)

Said1 said:


> dilloduck said:
> 
> 
> > Said1 said:
> ...



Why ?---I don't fuck fat men either


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## Said1 (Feb 1, 2009)

dilloduck said:


> Said1 said:
> 
> 
> > dilloduck said:
> ...



I was refering to shedding the old one and growing a new one. Presumably, this would phenomena would extent to all men, not just pudgy guys - if it were possible.


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## dilloduck (Feb 1, 2009)

Said1 said:


> dilloduck said:
> 
> 
> > Said1 said:
> ...



In that case I would cheat right before the old one fell off


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## Care4all (Feb 1, 2009)

dilloduck said:


> Said1 said:
> 
> 
> > dilloduck said:
> ...



hahahahahahahaha! oh my goodness!


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## dilloduck (Feb 1, 2009)

Care4all said:


> dilloduck said:
> 
> 
> > Said1 said:
> ...



and have chicks bid for it on e bay !


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## Amanda (Feb 1, 2009)

dilloduck said:


> Care4all said:
> 
> 
> > dilloduck said:
> ...



You might be able to sell it but I doubt it would be women bidding on it...


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## dilloduck (Feb 1, 2009)

Amanda said:


> dilloduck said:
> 
> 
> > Care4all said:
> ...



You haven't seen it recently !


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## Amanda (Feb 1, 2009)

dilloduck said:


> Amanda said:
> 
> 
> > dilloduck said:
> ...



Hey now, I haven't seen it at all. Don't go making it sound like it isn't.


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## dilloduck (Feb 1, 2009)

Amanda said:


> dilloduck said:
> 
> 
> > Amanda said:
> ...


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## Amanda (Feb 1, 2009)

dilloduck said:


> Amanda said:
> 
> 
> > dilloduck said:
> ...



Ok, let's get this back on track.


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## dilloduck (Feb 1, 2009)

Amanda said:


> dilloduck said:
> 
> 
> > Amanda said:
> ...



Fire away


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## Sky Dancer (Feb 1, 2009)

PoliticalChic said:


> I don't think William was talking about once in while.  It sounds like the refusals were on a consistent basis.





Ever consider that William may have earned the no, not with you?


----------



## Amanda (Feb 1, 2009)

Jalu said:


> PoliticalChic said:
> 
> 
> > I don't think William was talking about once in while.  It sounds like the refusals were on a consistent basis.
> ...



I think there are some things, like sex, that are a given in a marriage. If they aren't then they better have been spelled out from the beginning. If someone thinks they are withdrawing part of what they agreed to then I think it's quite possible the marriage is over. There's something seriously wrong if someone doesn't want to be intimate with their partner and it's even worse if they think they can just stop and keep enjoying the other benefits that come with marriage.


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## dilloduck (Feb 1, 2009)

Amanda said:


> Jalu said:
> 
> 
> > PoliticalChic said:
> ...



Apparently it needs to be part of the contract--in ink.
It seems to be sorta vague don't you think ?


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## Sky Dancer (Feb 1, 2009)

Where does a marriage contract say that a spouse has to put out or else on demand?


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## dilloduck (Feb 1, 2009)

Jalu said:


> Where does a marriage contract say that a spouse has to put out or else on demand?



It doesn't.


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## catzmeow (Feb 1, 2009)

Dis said:


> Bullshit nothing. If your marriage is to the point where you're dropping ultimatums such as "if you don't put out, I'm going elsewhere", rather than talking/working through it, then your marriage IS done, and you should just get the divorce, rather than staying married.



People stay married for a ton of reasons besides just sex.  If one spouse isn't into having sex, the other spouse should be open about his/her needs, and deal with it honestly, rather than cheating.  Better that than pretending things are fine and going behind the person's back, dishonestly.


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## dilloduck (Feb 1, 2009)

catzmeow said:


> Dis said:
> 
> 
> > Bullshit nothing. If your marriage is to the point where you're dropping ultimatums such as "if you don't put out, I'm going elsewhere", rather than talking/working through it, then your marriage IS done, and you should just get the divorce, rather than staying married.
> ...



How can one spouse deny the other sex and continue to expect fidelity ?


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## catzmeow (Feb 1, 2009)

dilloduck said:


> not much point in keeping that on your payroll .
> Is exclusive and "enough"  sex part of the marriage contract ?



It is for me.  Now, given that, if he has some physical disability that renders him unable to perform, there are ways to have sex without having SEX, if you catch my drift.  But someone who simply stops putting out, entirely?  Fuck that noise.


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## Sky Dancer (Feb 1, 2009)

dilloduck said:


> catzmeow said:
> 
> 
> > Dis said:
> ...



In sickness and in health until death do us part.  Does a wife dump her husband and start shagging someone else when he has prostate cancer?  What about mental illness or normal aging? 

Do you dump the man or woman you love for improved body parts?


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## catzmeow (Feb 1, 2009)

dilloduck said:


> How can one spouse deny the other sex and continue to expect fidelity ?



In my opinion, they can't.  It's simply absurd. Sex is as much a human need as food and clothing.  I have a close friend, Brian, whose wife hasn't slept with him in years, and in fact, refuses to touch him physically.  

Is he obligated to continue to be faithful to her?  In my opinion, no.  Though, I think he should be honest and open with her, and tell her what he's planning to do.  That isn't an ultimatum, it's saying, "I have no plans to divorce you, for the sake of the kids, but I have needs.  If you are unwilling or unable to meet those needs, I will be pursuing them elsewhere."

I have no moral objection to that.  What I don't like is the lying and sneaking that cheating always seems to entail.


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## Amanda (Feb 1, 2009)

dilloduck said:


> Amanda said:
> 
> 
> > Jalu said:
> ...



I guess for some.

To me there are a lot of things that are part of the deal and are pretty much non-negotiable unless there are really extenuating circumstances.


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## dilloduck (Feb 1, 2009)

catzmeow said:


> dilloduck said:
> 
> 
> > not much point in keeping that on your payroll .
> ...



I think we're back to William's point but he apparently isn't intimate enough with us to give us the details of behind his question.


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## catzmeow (Feb 1, 2009)

Jalu said:


> In sickness and in health until death do us part.  Does a wife dump her husband and start shagging someone else when he has prostate cancer?



Does prostate cancer incapacitate his fingers or tongue?  There are dozens of ways to give a partner sexual pleasure and satisfaction, and only a few of them require a functional penis.  Failing that, you can hold each other and provide physical comfort.

I cannot imagine a scenario in a healthy marriage where I would not somehow try to please my partner physically, no matter what my health was.

But, there are a whole lot of people out there who are neither sick, nor disabled, who simply have no desire to have sex with their significant other.  They just stop...for reasons that frankly baffle me.  They don't even try.  And then, they expect the other person to remain faithful, to not pursue sex outside the bonds of marriage, and to keep supporting them.

In general, I've found that the people who choose to stop having sex are women, who still expect the man to keep providing for them financially.  In my friend's case, it has been YEARS since his wife allowed him to have sex with her.  Or, for that matter, to sleep in her bed.  And, this is an attractive man with good hygiene.  There is literally no reason that I can think of that this woman refuses to even TOUCH HIM.  Or, sleep next to him.

What's wrong with that picture?


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## dilloduck (Feb 1, 2009)

catzmeow said:


> Jalu said:
> 
> 
> > In sickness and in health until death do us part.  Does a wife dump her husband and start shagging someone else when he has prostate cancer?
> ...



Lot's if the man has a healthy sex drive.


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## catzmeow (Feb 1, 2009)

Jalu said:


> In sickness and in health until death do us part.  Does a wife dump her husband and start shagging someone else when he has prostate cancer?  What about mental illness or normal aging?
> 
> Do you dump the man or woman you love for improved body parts?



What about a woman who is married to a man who suffers from alzheimers, and who lingers for a decade in a completely incapacitated condition.  Is she NEVER supposed to stray from her vows?


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## 007 (Feb 1, 2009)

I would think that if the wife ballooned up to hippo status and her sweaty, celulite rolls didn't turn me on anymore, I'm not going to poke it, even if she does want it. Now that story can go both ways. Or maybe we just both grow old and neither of us want sex anymore. But while you're virile enough and want to have sex, and your partner says no, then there IS something wrong. An affair, a medical problem, whatever, but it should be taken care of, pronto. If there is no remedy for the situation, then it's time to move on, and I don't mean cheat. I mean get a divorce.


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## Sky Dancer (Feb 1, 2009)

There are conditions that cause a lack of desire.  Certain medications for example.  I don't have judgments of other people who cheat in their marriages.  It's the stuff of real life and great fiction.

I'm watching a very successful married couple, go from a regular married life to one that is an 'open marriage' model.  I wish them luck.


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## dilloduck (Feb 1, 2009)

catzmeow said:


> Jalu said:
> 
> 
> > In sickness and in health until death do us part.  Does a wife dump her husband and start shagging someone else when he has prostate cancer?  What about mental illness or normal aging?
> ...



I would imagine some would praise her for her sacrifice while others would think she's just stupid or not interested either.


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## Said1 (Feb 1, 2009)

catzmeow said:


> Jalu said:
> 
> 
> > In sickness and in health until death do us part.  Does a wife dump her husband and start shagging someone else when he has prostate cancer?  What about mental illness or normal aging?
> ...



I don't see a problem with that, considering he'll forget about it immediately if he finds out.


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## dilloduck (Feb 1, 2009)

Said1 said:


> catzmeow said:
> 
> 
> > Jalu said:
> ...



 great point !


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## 007 (Feb 1, 2009)

Ultimately, it comes down to the two people involved. Is one willing to stay with the other even if they've been cut off, or not? 

But under no circumstances should you ever cheat.


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## Sky Dancer (Feb 1, 2009)

If a spouse is ill and dying, it wouldn't be so surprising to see the husband or wife of the terminally ill or dying spouse seek comfort.  Would you condemn that individual?


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## dilloduck (Feb 1, 2009)

Pale Rider said:


> Ultimately, it comes down to the two people involved. Is one willing to stay with the other even if they've been cut off, or not?
> 
> But under no circumstances should you ever cheat.



When you get married there is a whole hell of a lot of things you shouldn't do anymore !


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## 007 (Feb 1, 2009)

dilloduck said:


> Pale Rider said:
> 
> 
> > Ultimately, it comes down to the two people involved. Is one willing to stay with the other even if they've been cut off, or not?
> ...



That's why I've been single for going on 22 years... I want to do what I want to do, when and where I want, how I want, why I want, and I don't want anybody to bitch at me if I do. I'm exercising my freedom.


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## Sky Dancer (Feb 1, 2009)

Remaining in love, that's the key.


----------



## Said1 (Feb 1, 2009)

dilloduck said:


> Said1 said:
> 
> 
> > catzmeow said:
> ...



But seriously. My friends brother met someone right before his wife died - she was sick for a long time. And yes, he was shunned for it, but only for the girl he started dating and married (and divorced) rather than how soon he moved on after his wife died.


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## Sky Dancer (Feb 1, 2009)

Pale Rider said:


> dilloduck said:
> 
> 
> > Pale Rider said:
> ...




More than likely you'll die single.  Many of us who are married will stay true to our spouses and die single.


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## dilloduck (Feb 1, 2009)

Said1 said:


> dilloduck said:
> 
> 
> > Said1 said:
> ...



That social taboo can be a bitch.


----------



## Said1 (Feb 1, 2009)

dilloduck said:


> Said1 said:
> 
> 
> > dilloduck said:
> ...



She wasn't very nice, either.


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## dilloduck (Feb 1, 2009)

Said1 said:


> dilloduck said:
> 
> 
> > Said1 said:
> ...



Apparently----divorcing a nice person would be stupid.


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## Sky Dancer (Feb 1, 2009)

I've done it.  Divorced someone I loved.


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## 007 (Feb 1, 2009)

Jalu said:


> Pale Rider said:
> 
> 
> > dilloduck said:
> ...



Maybe, single in the sense that I won't be marriad. But I do have a girl friend. She has her own place and I have mine. For now that's good.


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## dilloduck (Feb 1, 2009)

Jalu said:


> I've done it.  Divorced someone I loved.



and  ???????????


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## tigerbob (Feb 1, 2009)

Dis said:


> tigerbob said:
> 
> 
> > Dis said:
> ...



Busted!

God gave us a brain and a dick, but...


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## Sky Dancer (Feb 1, 2009)

He died.  End of story.


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## Dis (Feb 1, 2009)

catzmeow said:


> Dis said:
> 
> 
> > Bullshit nothing. If your marriage is to the point where you're dropping ultimatums such as "if you don't put out, I'm going elsewhere", rather than talking/working through it, then your marriage IS done, and you should just get the divorce, rather than staying married.
> ...



That was my point.. You should try first. If trying fails, then just get the divorce rather than dropping ultimatums.  They just make everything worse.


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## Care4all (Feb 2, 2009)

When my grandmother was 79 and my grandpa was 90 years old, (he was 11 years older than her and they were married 65 years before he passed on),anyway my grandmother was telling my mom that grandpa was trying to have sex with her every morning and that she was fending him off by telling him it was not his "magic" that was making "it" that way, that he was just waking up 'piss hard' and she was refusing to have sex with him.....i kid you NOT!!!!  hahahahahahaha!  ( I can't believe my grandma even talked about sex, or even had it....ever... and her children had to have been just miracles so when my mom was giggling and telling me about grandma's complaints...I was just thrown!!!!)

So the question is, should my grandpa have cheated on my grandma cuz she was refusing, when he was 90 and she approaching 80, and would that have been ok?


----------



## catzmeow (Feb 2, 2009)

God, I hope I'm still having sex when I'm 90.


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## Care4all (Feb 2, 2009)

catzmeow said:


> God, I hope I'm still having sex when I'm 90.



I KNOW!!!!

and Viagra wasn't even available back then!  Must be his Italian Blood!!!!!


----------



## Gunny (Feb 2, 2009)

Jalu said:


> Where does a marriage contract say that a spouse has to put out or else on demand?



I don't see where anyone said anyone has to put out "on demand."  That isn't the discussion at all.

The discussion is "no more sex."  

In both cases, courts have made legal rulings.  The woman has the right to say no to sex and it means no.  I say that only because I have never heard of a court case where the man refused, but one would assume it applies both ways.

Courts also rule that a refusal to have sex at all is grounds for a divorce.  

In other words, your sudden shift in topic is covered by law and there is no argument from a legal standpoint.


----------



## Gunny (Feb 2, 2009)

Jalu said:


> dilloduck said:
> 
> 
> > catzmeow said:
> ...



Again, you're tossing in junk that changes the discussion.  The discussion is "no more sex," given as an ultimatum from one partner to the other.

That is unilaterally changing the relationship.  Hardly what I would call a 50-50, partnership decision.  

If one decides "no more sex," then, IMO, the one making that decision should have NO problem with the other fulfilling that need elsewhere and cheating shouldn't be an issue.  

"Can't" perform is a completely separate issue.


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## Gunny (Feb 2, 2009)

Jalu said:


> If a spouse is ill and dying, it wouldn't be so surprising to see the husband or wife of the terminally ill or dying spouse seek comfort.  Would you condemn that individual?



Yep.  In a heartbeat.  Again, nothing to do with the parameters of the discussion, but under this particular circumstance, I can easily see condemning that person's behavior.


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## Care4all (Feb 2, 2009)

I know if you do not consummate your marriage that is grounds for divorce/annulment, so sex is implied in marriage.

I am not certain though, if after consummation, if sex is then required or grounds for divorce if it does not take place, i would imagine this would be state law, if it is a law?


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## Gunny (Feb 2, 2009)

Care4all said:


> I know if you do not consummate your marriage that is grounds for divorce/annulment, so sex is implied in marriage.
> 
> I am not certain though, if after consummation, if sex is then required or grounds for divorce if it does not take place, i would imagine this would be state law, if it is a law?



I'm sure it is individual state laws.  I don't even recall the specifics, nor even where I was living at the time, but there was a case I recall hearing about where the divorce was granted because the woman decided to quit putting out after the fact.


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## jillian (Feb 2, 2009)

Gunny said:


> Care4all said:
> 
> 
> > I know if you do not consummate your marriage that is grounds for divorce/annulment, so sex is implied in marriage.
> ...



NY law says that refusing sex for a period of one year or more constitutes constructive abandonment and is grounds for divorce.


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## editec (Feb 2, 2009)

Jalu said:


> I've done it. Divorced someone I loved.


 
Sometimes love is just not enough to keep two people together.


----------



## dilloduck (Feb 2, 2009)

jillian said:


> Gunny said:
> 
> 
> > Care4all said:
> ...



Once a year seems to be a pretty easy feat to accomplish. How do you prove it in court ?


----------



## jillian (Feb 2, 2009)

dilloduck said:


> jillian said:
> 
> 
> > Gunny said:
> ...



You prove it by your testimony. But NY doesn't have "no fault" divorce, so that's what most people allege in their complaints. And every so often, the person suing was the one who stopped having sex with the other... so they don't get the divorce... which means they can't get the property of the marriage divided.


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## 007 (Feb 2, 2009)

Care4all said:


> I know if you do not consummate your marriage that is grounds for divorce/annulment, so sex is implied in marriage.
> 
> I am not certain though, if after consummation, if sex is then required or grounds for divorce if it does not take place, i would imagine this would be state law, if it is a law?



After all, I have heard having sex with your spouse called your "duty."


----------



## dilloduck (Feb 2, 2009)

jillian said:


> dilloduck said:
> 
> 
> > jillian said:
> ...



Most people allege they haven't had sex for a year ? Poor planning if they thought they were gonig to get their share of the loot.


----------



## random3434 (Feb 2, 2009)

editec said:


> Jalu said:
> 
> 
> > I've done it. Divorced someone I loved.
> ...



Truer words were never spoken editec.


----------



## Paulie (Feb 2, 2009)

Againsheila said:


> William Joyce said:
> 
> 
> > What if the spouse just refused to have sex?
> ...



So it's not ok to cheat, but it's ok to divorce when you gave a vow of staying together "til death"?

Don't have sex behind my back, attone for the mistake, and get back on track with the marriage you vowed to stay in forever...but go ahead and break the promise if you feel like you're bored with me.  

Ok, gotcha.


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## dilloduck (Feb 2, 2009)

Paulie said:


> Againsheila said:
> 
> 
> > William Joyce said:
> ...



ya-- weird huh?   Sorta like "if your gonna cheat follow the proper procedures" .


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## Paulie (Feb 2, 2009)

dilloduck said:


> Paulie said:
> 
> 
> > Againsheila said:
> ...



I wouldn't have expected to see that from Sheila.  She seems like the type that would honor that kind of committment.

Afterall, it's why we men have such problems with it.    Once you take those vows, you're _IN_


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## dilloduck (Feb 2, 2009)

Paulie said:


> dilloduck said:
> 
> 
> > Paulie said:
> ...



and you're only in one place and with her permission.


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## 007 (Feb 2, 2009)

Paulie said:


> Againsheila said:
> 
> 
> > William Joyce said:
> ...



So you don't believe in divorce... OK, gotcha.

I think what Shiela said was admirable. She believes one should be faithful. What is wrong with that? She believes in divorce, which is perfectly legal. What is wrong with that? No one is getting hurt, and no one is breaking the law. What is wrong with that?


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## Paulie (Feb 2, 2009)

Pale Rider said:


> Paulie said:
> 
> 
> > Againsheila said:
> ...



I'm not debating legality, just morality.

A vow to stay together until death is a pretty serious vow.  You ought not make that kind of committment unless you're willing to honor it.  A mistake along the way of cheating isn't the worst thing in the world if you're able to reconcile and maintain the vow.  That's the "for better or for worse" part.

I'm not religious, but it seems like a slap in the face to "god" to have one of his representatives take time out of their otherwise busy day to come and administer lifelong vows to a couple that ultimately calls it quits because they're either bored, or all the sudden not in love anymore, or what have you.

Don't take it personally.  It's just an opinion, that's all.


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## Paulie (Feb 2, 2009)

I just don't see marriage as a novelty.  You take the vow, you KEEP the vow and weather the bad times, or you don't do it at all.

It's that simple.


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## dilloduck (Feb 2, 2009)

Paulie said:


> I just don't see marriage as a novelty.  You take the vow, you KEEP the vow and weather the bad times, or you don't do it at all.
> 
> It's that simple.



So the solution of getting divorced before you have sex with someone else rings a bit hollow to you, does it ?


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## Againsheila (Feb 2, 2009)

Care4all said:


> When my grandmother was 79 and my grandpa was 90 years old, (he was 11 years older than her and they were married 65 years before he passed on),anyway my grandmother was telling my mom that grandpa was trying to have sex with her every morning and that she was fending him off by telling him it was not his "magic" that was making "it" that way, that he was just waking up 'piss hard' and she was refusing to have sex with him.....i kid you NOT!!!!  hahahahahahaha!  ( I can't believe my grandma even talked about sex, or even had it....ever... and her children had to have been just miracles so when my mom was giggling and telling me about grandma's complaints...I was just thrown!!!!)
> 
> So the question is, should my grandpa have cheated on my grandma cuz she was refusing, when he was 90 and she approaching 80, and would that have been ok?



Okay, I gotta tell a story here....When I was in college, I had a friend named Mary Ellen and she asked her 84 year old Grandma, "Grandma, how old do you have to be before you're not interested in sex anymore?"  and her grandma patted her hand and said "Mary Ellen, when I get there, I'll let you know.


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## Againsheila (Feb 2, 2009)

Paulie said:


> Pale Rider said:
> 
> 
> > Paulie said:
> ...



Sometimes, for whatever reason, a marriage just doesn't work out.  That's why we have divorce laws.  I'm not exactly in favor of divorce but since we do have it available, then it's preferable to remaining in a bad marriage.  I do not, however, think anyone should divorce on a whim.  Keeping a family together is a very big responsibility and it's extremely important.

It takes work to keep a marriage together and if you aren't willing to work for that, don't get married.  

As long as you are married, it's important to remain faithful to your vows.  Furthermore, for all those single gals and guys out there, having an affair with a married person, you are committing a moral sin.  I don't care how you try to justify it, you are breaking up a a marriage, and/or causing trouble for a family that doesn't deserve it.  

I knew a woman that dated a married man.  She KNEW he was married and expected him to leave his wife for her.  I just looked at her and said "If he'll leave his wife for you, what makes you think he won't leave you when someone better comes along?"  She finally dumped him.


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## AllieBaba (Feb 2, 2009)

Define "bad marriage".

I have a problem with people who define a "bad marriage" as "bad" because they themselves are tired of working on it and want to play the field.

Or who define a marriage as "bad" because they have realized that it IS hard work, you don't wake up every morning with good breath and stars in your eyes, and you may go through very, very long stretches where you don't like each other very much...but because you have children and are committed to something that is greater than the dream of 100 percent joyfull bliss all the time, and because you have a plan and still are committed to the plan, you stay together.

Anyone who has weathered long marriages will tell you..there are stretches of time where they didn't understand each other, didn't like each other, didn't care much, lost touch...but they come back around..and 30 years down the line, they have been very, very happy they did so. I have yet for a veteran of a 25-30 (or more) year marriage say they regretted spending all that time together.

And at the same time, they all had serious doubts along the marriage road and wanted to leave the marriages....


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## Anguille (Feb 2, 2009)

catzmeow said:


> God, I hope I'm still having sex when I'm 90.


  I guess I do too. But I'm not sure I'm going to want to be having it with 90 year old men.


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## AllieBaba (Feb 2, 2009)

No kidding.


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## Sky Dancer (Feb 2, 2009)

Paulie said:


> Pale Rider said:
> 
> 
> > Paulie said:
> ...



People marry for different reasons.  I think divorce as a 'slap in the face to god' is a slap in the face to those who legally marry by a justice of the peace.

Not everyone marries with religious ritualism.


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## Care4all (Feb 2, 2009)

Jalu said:


> Paulie said:
> 
> 
> > Pale Rider said:
> ...



Do you take a vow at the justice of the peace?  is there anything that is required to recite?


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## AllieBaba (Feb 2, 2009)

Jalu said:


> Paulie said:
> 
> 
> > Pale Rider said:
> ...



It's not about religion. It's about choosing a lifestyle, and an environment for kids to grow up in, and what's best for your family and society.


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## Sky Dancer (Feb 2, 2009)

Nothing to recite.  You sign the paperwork.  That's it.


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## Anguille (Feb 2, 2009)

Care4all said:


> Jalu said:
> 
> 
> > Paulie said:
> ...


Everyone I know who used a JP wrote their own vows.


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## Care4all (Feb 2, 2009)

Jalu said:


> Nothing to recite.  You sign the paperwork.  That's it.



And what is the paperwork for?  What is the contract agreement the both are signing?

if there is no agreement what is the marriage for....what do you sign on to?


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## AllieBaba (Feb 2, 2009)

Taxes. 
Birth.
Death.

It's a tracking device used to help the government keep track of data.


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## Dis (Feb 2, 2009)

Care4all said:


> Jalu said:
> 
> 
> > Paulie said:
> ...



Yep.  Typical marriage vows (or those of your choosing), same type of thing - just not done in a church.  They even use the word "God".  They'll just marry you anywhere you want to get married.  I didn't get married in a church.  I got marriied in the Mitchell Park Domes.  Can't have a preacher for that.


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## Sky Dancer (Feb 2, 2009)

Care4all said:


> Jalu said:
> 
> 
> > Nothing to recite.  You sign the paperwork.  That's it.
> ...



You sign on to the legal status of being married.


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## Dis (Feb 2, 2009)

Jalu said:


> Nothing to recite.  You sign the paperwork.  That's it.



You're wrong.

If you prefer a traditional type ceremony, they will perform it, and you will recite everything as if you were standing in a church.


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## Sky Dancer (Feb 2, 2009)

Care4all said:


> Jalu said:
> 
> 
> > Nothing to recite.  You sign the paperwork.  That's it.
> ...


You assume that without ceremony in a church there are no agreements in the marriage? Take a look at your marriage license.  What does it say?


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## Anguille (Feb 2, 2009)

Care4all said:


> Jalu said:
> 
> 
> > Nothing to recite.  You sign the paperwork.  That's it.
> ...


Pre nups are a separate thing. You agree verbally to honor the vows you asked the JP to recite, if any. I think I remember my sister and bro-in-law only vowed to love each other and be husband and wife to each other. Nothing complicated, nothing religious. Their JP was a bit absent minded and presented them after to the guests as Mr and Mrs His Last Name which annoyed my sister as she was not changing her name. 
You then sign a marriage license same as the one that is issued at City Hall.


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## Sky Dancer (Feb 2, 2009)

Anyone can pick up a minister license and sign your marriage documents.  That and another witness and that's it.  You're married.


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## Care4all (Feb 2, 2009)

Jalu said:


> Care4all said:
> 
> 
> > Jalu said:
> ...



fyi there is no malice intent in what i am asking you!  

I don't know what my marriage license says?hahahahaha 

that's why i was asking you!

What is the agreement, the legal agreement to marriage? 

I know what my religious vows were....no problem there.....it's the rest of the gobbledygook that i am clueless on....?


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## Sky Dancer (Feb 2, 2009)

Gunny said:


> Jalu said:
> 
> 
> > If a spouse is ill and dying, it wouldn't be so surprising to see the husband or wife of the terminally ill or dying spouse seek comfort.  Would you condemn that individual?
> ...



Congrats.  You win the award for being the most judgmental individual I've ever met.  Have a heart.


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## Care4all (Feb 2, 2009)

North Carolina History Project : Marriage, History of

ok, found some history on it...

it is primarily for inheritance reasons....rightful heirs to an estate....when someone dies....


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## Sky Dancer (Feb 2, 2009)

Care4all said:


> North Carolina History Project : Marriage, History of
> 
> ok, found some history on it...
> 
> it is primarily for inheritance reasons....rightful heirs to an estate....when someone dies....


See, marriage is about property rights, inheritance and taxes.   It's a way to get health insurance too.


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## Dis (Feb 2, 2009)

Jalu said:


> Gunny said:
> 
> 
> > Jalu said:
> ...



And you might just be the most callous person I've ever run across.. Your spouse is laying there dying, and you're more concerned with running off and getting laid because you need "comfort"?

Pathetic.


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## Sky Dancer (Feb 2, 2009)

Dis said:


> Jalu said:
> 
> 
> > Gunny said:
> ...



Nope.  I've never done that.  I wouldn't condemn someone else who did.    Have you ever seen someone die a slow death of dementia?  What about ALS or MS?

You don't know me.  Not a bit.


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## jillian (Feb 2, 2009)

Jalu said:


> Nope.  I've never done that.  I just wouldn't condemn someone else who did.    Have you ever seen someone die a slow death of dementia?



Talk about judgmental, eh? It's easy for holier than thou types to sentence other people to a life of no sex or intimacy and just being a caretaker. I think some people want to be martyrs so they like seeing other people as miserable as possible. Personally, I think people do what they can to get by in situations like that.


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## Sky Dancer (Feb 2, 2009)

When your heart is breaking, and you feel like dying yourself as you watch your loved one wither away, some people reach out to others in order to find the strength to carry on.

I would not condemn a man or woman who 'cheated' on a spouse who had ALS, MS or dementia.  Try imagining yourself in their shoes as the full time caregiver before you paint a letter A on their forehead and punish them.


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## Care4all (Feb 2, 2009)

Jalu said:


> Care4all said:
> 
> 
> > North Carolina History Project : Marriage, History of
> ...



yeah, i know that about health insurance....

The Gay marriage law in massachusetts ended up hurting alot of gays and heteros that had partners living with them, but just did not want to get married.

After gay marriage passed, the employers who used to offer health care insurance for your "partner" that lived with you, cut that out and only offered insurance coverage for you AND YOUR PARTNER, if you were married.

Many gay couples that were getting insurance for their partners that did not want to get married, lost their health insurance.

May hetero couples that got their partner's insurance through their employer, lost that insurance as well....

they have to be married now, in order to get it....is what an article i was reading last year had said....

it was a minor, unforeseen backlash to the new Gay marriage law, is what the article was saying...


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## jillian (Feb 2, 2009)

Care4all said:


> Jalu said:
> 
> 
> > Care4all said:
> ...



perhaps. but i'm ok with that one. a heterosexual couple wouldn't get benefits if they weren't married either.

it was offered to "partners" because there was no other means of covering a family unit. but if they weren't enough of a family unit to get married when they could, then I'm ok with them losing coverage.

equality is what it is... for good and bad.


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## Dis (Feb 2, 2009)

Jalu said:


> When your heart is breaking, and you feel like dying yourself as you watch your loved one wither away, some people reach out to others in order to find the strength to carry on.
> 
> I would not condemn a man or woman who 'cheated' on a spouse who had ALS, MS or dementia.  Try imagining yourself in their shoes as the full time caregiver before you paint a letter A on their forehead and punish them.



You can't find comfort in a friend?  You can only find it in sex with someone other than the person you made the vows "in sickness and in health, for better or for worse, in good times, and in bad" with?

LMAO.


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## Care4all (Feb 2, 2009)

yes, it is fair now jillian....

But there are still an awful lot of gay couples and hetero couples that relied on this health care coverage...

And in Massachusetts, it was fair, before Gay marriage as well, because health care coverage was offered to any partner living with you....gay or hetero.  Massachusetts has always been pretty good about that...

I don't know why it had to change?


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## jillian (Feb 2, 2009)

Dis said:


> You can't find comfort in a friend?  You can only find it in sex with someone other than the person you made the vows "in sickness and in health, for better or for worse, in good times, and in bad" with?
> 
> LMAO.





yeah, you shouldn't have sex for 10 to 15 years of your life.


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## Shogun (Feb 2, 2009)




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## jillian (Feb 2, 2009)

It could be a bit embarrassing if the dog did that when guests were over.


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## GHook93 (Feb 2, 2009)

Againsheila said:


> William Joyce said:
> 
> 
> > What if the spouse just refused to have sex?
> ...



Getting divorce isn't that easy, esp when you have kids!


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## Dis (Feb 2, 2009)

jillian said:


> Dis said:
> 
> 
> > You can't find comfort in a friend?  You can only find it in sex with someone other than the person you made the vows "in sickness and in health, for better or for worse, in good times, and in bad" with?
> ...



Get a friggen BOB.  You made the vows, and when it becomes inconvenient for you, and you're feeling a little put out, you can just forsake them?


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## jillian (Feb 2, 2009)

Care4all said:


> yes, it is fair now jillian....
> 
> But there are still an awful lot of gay couples and hetero couples that relied on this health care coverage...
> 
> ...



it changed because people want to be married. that may have been problematic for some and I understand that they relied on it. but it is what it is. and, ultimately, it's about equality.... not about creating special interest groups, IMO. (although it might not have killed the state to leave the coverage in place for people who already had it and just not allow anyone new to get it).


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## jillian (Feb 2, 2009)

Dis said:


> jillian said:
> 
> 
> > Dis said:
> ...



you need to get a grip on your holier than thou self. "a little inconvenient"? "feeling put out"? are you retarded? seriously.... or is it that you couldn't care less if you had sex, so no one else should get any either?

explains a lot.

No one says you should "foresake them", drama queen. That's the point! And what the heck is a BOB?


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## Shogun (Feb 2, 2009)

Indeed!

Regarding incapacitated spouses though, I have to wonder how the "till death do us part, for better or for worse" becomes invalid in this day and age of sex shop options.  True, a husband with Alzheimer's probably can't reciprocate intimacy like he once could....  but i'm thinking this falls under the "better or worse" part of the marriage vows.


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## Dis (Feb 2, 2009)

jillian said:


> Dis said:
> 
> 
> > jillian said:
> ...



I'm saying you're pretty damned selfish if you're putting your physical comfort above that of the person you vowed to love above all else.  Hell, why not just meander off and get a divorce, or toss'm in a nursing establishment?  Then you can hie off and get laid 3 times a day if you want.

The fact that you can just leave them lying there and flounce out the door and jump into someone elses bed speaks volumes..


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## Dis (Feb 2, 2009)

Shogun said:


> Indeed!
> 
> Regarding incapacitated spouses though, I have to wonder how the "till death do us part, for better or for worse" becomes invalid in this day and age of sex shop options.  True, a husband with Alzheimer's probably can't reciprocate intimacy like he once could....  but i'm thinking this falls under the "better or worse" part of the marriage vows.



One would think.

But, apparently not.  Once they become an inconvenience, scrap'm, and look for an upgrade.


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## jillian (Feb 2, 2009)

Shogun said:


> Indeed!
> 
> Regarding incapacitated spouses though, I have to wonder how the "till death do us part, for better or for worse" becomes invalid in this day and age of sex shop options.  True, a husband with Alzheimer's probably can't reciprocate intimacy like he once could....  but i'm thinking this falls under the "better or worse" part of the marriage vows.



Even Abraham was allowed a surrogate partner when Sarah couldn't give him a child. I'm not saying it's the way to go. I'm simply saying that people get through sucky situations best they can. And there's no point to judging others. And you do realize that for most people, sex is more than an orgasm, right? So a life of sex toys might not cut it.


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## GHook93 (Feb 2, 2009)

William Joyce said:


> What if the spouse just refused to have sex?



Than you are like the billions of other married people in the! 

Shit WJ I can't relate with you on much (mainly because you are a red-neck racist freak !), but this might be one of them! The wife used to be a freak, well when we were dating and in the first few years of marriage. Baby one came and well things slowed down. Baby 2 and well, you get the picture.

I have personally thought about it! I have kept myself in decent shape! Not sure my game is as good though. 

Then I thought about not seeing my kids everyday and that just seemed more important!


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## Shogun (Feb 2, 2009)

jillian said:


> Shogun said:
> 
> 
> > Indeed!
> ...



There are a lot of things from the OT that we don't really observe under our America Tradition of Marriage.  Saul had concubines but we haven't worked that into our system yet.. Even the child of David and Bathsheba paid the price for their infidelity....  

Yes, I know that sex is more than an orgasm.  Much like marriage vows are more than words.


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## Care4all (Feb 2, 2009)

The Abraham story hasn't turned out too well Jillian....just look at the middle east today...

I agree with you, that God does give us free will, and that includes making a mistake...

But to me, the story of Abraham and Sarah and Haagar having ishmael because sarah and abraham could not conceive was a story about his temporary lack of FAITH in God, to answer their prayers and give them a child, Isaac.

And the consequences of this mistake of abraham's choice in using Haagar as surrogate or additional wife has punished the generations to follow.

But yes, i agree with you that God allows free will, and God allowed Abraham this free will and LOVED HIM NO LESS, for his choices, even if they were mistakes.

That's kinda how I see it!


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## PoliticalChic (Feb 2, 2009)

Shogun said:


> Indeed!
> 
> Regarding incapacitated spouses though, I have to wonder how the "till death do us part, for better or for worse" becomes invalid in this day and age of sex shop options.  True, a husband with Alzheimer's probably can't reciprocate intimacy like he once could....  but i'm thinking this falls under the "better or worse" part of the marriage vows.



Can everyone be as doting and caring as Nancy Reagan, as she was for 10 years?  Once Alzheimer's ravages the brain, you can't even have a coherent conversation with someone who is afflicted.


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## AllieBaba (Feb 2, 2009)

jillian said:


> Jalu said:
> 
> 
> > Nope.  I've never done that.  I just wouldn't condemn someone else who did.    Have you ever seen someone die a slow death of dementia?
> ...



Who the hell is sentencing anyone? It's a choice. You can either be devoted to your spouse regardless of the inconvenience, or you can not be.


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## Care4all (Feb 2, 2009)

Now, on the other new topic....I think it all depends.

Every circumstance may be different and there is no true yes or no answer that any of us could truely answer without being in the circumstance ourselves....

too many nuances to flat out say, yes i would cheat on a spouse if they had altzheimers for a decade...

I mean, what if you had children around?  

Would it be an open relationship where the cheating is out in the public?

What if you were 65 when he or she came down with it?  

What if you were 50 and all the kids gone?

What if you and your husband have already discussed this situation together and have given eachother permission to do such?

so many what ifs....

I would like to think that my husband or I would not "cheat" under those circumstances...

but you all have given me a topic to discuss with my husband....maybe it wouldn't be cheating in his eyes?  I don't know?


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## AllieBaba (Feb 2, 2009)

GHook93 said:


> William Joyce said:
> 
> 
> > What if the spouse just refused to have sex?
> ...




Boo fucking hoo. 

Men conveniently forget that when they were single, they didn't get any sex at all, the losers.


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## Shogun (Feb 2, 2009)

PoliticalChic said:


> Shogun said:
> 
> 
> > Indeed!
> ...



I would advise you amend your marriage vows then.  Hopefully, if you are ever incapacitated then your current spouse won't start asking similar questions.


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## PoliticalChic (Feb 2, 2009)

Shogun said:


> PoliticalChic said:
> 
> 
> > Shogun said:
> ...



God forbid, if I became afflicted with Alzheimer's, because I love my husband, I wouldn't expect him to "stay" by my side a 100% of time, especially if I can't even be of any emotional support.


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## Paulie (Feb 2, 2009)

PoliticalChic said:


> Shogun said:
> 
> 
> > PoliticalChic said:
> ...



If cheating would be ok with you, that's not a bad thing, if you're still maintaining your vows to be together until death.

Marriage doesn't have to be synonymous with sex.  If you'd be ok with your husband getting laid somewhere else because you're incapacitated by a disease, then so be it.  If you maintain your marriage until death, you completed your agreement.  

If sex makes or breaks a marriage, you better have already figured that part out before diving in.  And you also ought to realize it's not always going to be the same as it was the first earth-shattering time.  That's the for better or for worse part.  When the marriage gets bad, you do what you have to do to work through it and be stronger in the end.  That was the vow you took, afterall.


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## AllieBaba (Feb 2, 2009)

I just would really like somebody to point out where it's a "requirement" that adults get a certain amount of sex each day?


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## Amanda (Feb 2, 2009)

AllieBaba said:


> I just would really like somebody to point out where it's a "requirement" that adults get a certain amount of sex each day?



I don't think anyone was saying that. The question has been reframed from how it was originally asked. This is supposed to be about one partner deciding that sex is off the menu for unstated reasons. It was never supposed to be about dementia or paralysis or whatever.

In the original context I don't think it was about someone demanding it everyday (tho I guess that could be what was happening...) it was about someone refusing all the time. I don't think anyone (sane) here would say anyone has the right to demand sex everyday. I think what they (and I) am saying is that sex _should_ be part of a healthy intimate relationship and if it isn't there then there is a problem. Then how they think that problem should be addressed varies wildly.


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## jillian (Feb 2, 2009)

AllieBaba said:


> I just would really like somebody to point out where it's a "requirement" that adults get a certain amount of sex each day?



did anyone say that? nope... didn't think so.


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## Dis (Feb 2, 2009)

jillian said:


> AllieBaba said:
> 
> 
> > I just would really like somebody to point out where it's a "requirement" that adults get a certain amount of sex each day?
> ...



You could take lessons in making your point from the 18 year old that posted 5min before you had to get that smarmy comment in.


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## AllieBaba (Feb 2, 2009)

When you freak out about dooming someone to a...gasp...life without on-call sex, you're essentially saying sex is a requirement for adult life.


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## Said1 (Feb 2, 2009)

I was wondering when someone from the no-sex side would turn up.


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## AllieBaba (Feb 2, 2009)

Lol. There's one in every crowd, I guess.

I just don't think sex is a human right. I could be wrong. But I don't think I am.


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## catzmeow (Feb 2, 2009)

AllieBaba said:


> I just would really like somebody to point out where it's a "requirement" that adults get a certain amount of sex each day?



I need it, to be blunt.  BOB will not suffice, on his own.  I've lived without sex, and it's a miserable existence.


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## Said1 (Feb 2, 2009)

AllieBaba said:


> Lol. There's one in every crowd, I guess.
> 
> I just don't think sex is a human right. I could be wrong. But I don't think I am.



I don't think it's a right, either.


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## PoliticalChic (Feb 2, 2009)

Paulie said:


> PoliticalChic said:
> 
> 
> > Shogun said:
> ...



When something as life-changing as Alzheimer's would afflict either myself or my spouse, I wouldn't expect the marriage vows to hold.  It's not about just the sex in such a case.


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## Dis (Feb 2, 2009)

PoliticalChic said:


> Paulie said:
> 
> 
> > PoliticalChic said:
> ...



Wow.. That's just really sad. The times your spouse may need you the most is the time you don't expect those vows to hold.

Just..wow.


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## jillian (Feb 2, 2009)

Dis said:


> jillian said:
> 
> 
> > AllieBaba said:
> ...



no thanks. i gave you the respect you deserved.


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## Dis (Feb 2, 2009)

jillian said:


> Dis said:
> 
> 
> > jillian said:
> ...



You on drugs?  It wasn't even me you were replying to, but another member..  She musta deserved that, too, huh?

Sometimes you're really sad, Jill


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## jillian (Feb 2, 2009)

Dis said:


> jillian said:
> 
> 
> > Dis said:
> ...



yeah, couldn't tell the difference between you and alli. 

oops. you'd better do something about that... you know, like a little anger management.

see, the one thing i've learned from you nutcases, is that it's just stupid to be polite to you. wasted effort. so i'll treat you like you deserve.


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## Dis (Feb 2, 2009)

jillian said:


> Dis said:
> 
> 
> > jillian said:
> ...



Actually, you treat everyone that disagrees with you exactly the same; accusing them of hatred, pure spite, etc.

That's something YOU might want to work on.  I would suggest you pull the pole out of your ass and get started.


----------



## random3434 (Feb 2, 2009)

AllieBaba said:


> I just would really like somebody to point out where it's a "requirement" that adults get a certain amount of sex each day?



The Porn Industry?


----------



## Gunny (Feb 2, 2009)

Jalu said:


> Gunny said:
> 
> 
> > Jalu said:
> ...




Wow.  Why not exaggerate a bit, huh?  That's hardly being the most judgemental.  Matter of fact, it's fairly moderate compared to condemning the PERSON, as nost people do.  I only condemn the behavior.

Sorry, but under the circumstances you stated, it's wrong.


----------



## Gunny (Feb 2, 2009)

Jalu said:


> Care4all said:
> 
> 
> > North Carolina History Project : Marriage, History of
> ...



You are speaking only of the legal contract with the state.  Marriage is also a promise between two people and God.


----------



## Gunny (Feb 2, 2009)

Jalu said:


> When your heart is breaking, and you feel like dying yourself as you watch your loved one wither away, some people reach out to others in order to find the strength to carry on.
> 
> I would not condemn a man or woman who 'cheated' on a spouse who had ALS, MS or dementia.  Try imagining yourself in their shoes as the full time caregiver before you paint a letter A on their forehead and punish them.



That's called being weak.


----------



## Anguille (Feb 2, 2009)

I learned two things from this thread:

1) There is something called BOB that is supposed to help out certain women with the urge to merge, but I still don't know what this BOB does.

2) Dis' bitchiness is due to more than just not getting any nicotine.


----------



## Againsheila (Feb 2, 2009)

Anguille said:


> Care4all said:
> 
> 
> > Jalu said:
> ...



One of the best weddings I attended, a friend of mine was divorced and had twins.  She was marrying again and the kids were part of the ceremony.  When it was over, the minister introduced them as "Mr and Mrs 'his last name' and family".  The kids loved their new dad.


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## 007 (Feb 3, 2009)

I never would have guessed this topic could have ground on for this long...


----------



## roomy (Feb 3, 2009)

What a threadWell done folks.


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## jillian (Feb 3, 2009)

Gunny said:


> Jalu said:
> 
> 
> > Care4all said:
> ...



that' would be a RELIGIOUS marriage... having nothing to do with marriage as enacted by the State.


----------



## jillian (Feb 3, 2009)

Gunny said:


> Jalu said:
> 
> 
> > Care4all said:
> ...



because marriage as a legal entity has nothing to do with religion.


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## RetiredGySgt (Feb 3, 2009)

jillian said:


> Gunny said:
> 
> 
> > Jalu said:
> ...



You are aware, being a lawyer and all, that if one marries a foreigner just for the purpose of conveying legal immigration status on them it is a crime? So much for it is just a legal contract.

Anyone that claims marriage is just a legal contract is a fool and most likely will not be married for long.


----------



## jillian (Feb 3, 2009)

RetiredGySgt said:


> jillian said:
> 
> 
> > Gunny said:
> ...



It is illegal to marry someone in order to convey citizenship because it is fraud on the government.... which is always illegal.


----------



## catzmeow (Feb 3, 2009)

RetiredGySgt said:


> Anyone that claims marriage is just a legal contract is a fool and most likely will not be married for long.



So, a person has to believe in God to be successful at marriage???


----------



## RetiredGySgt (Feb 3, 2009)

catzmeow said:


> RetiredGySgt said:
> 
> 
> > Anyone that claims marriage is just a legal contract is a fool and most likely will not be married for long.
> ...



I did not say that. But claiming marriage is just some legal contract is ignorant.

Some more examples of how marriage is not JUST a contract. A lot of places that offer spousal benefits will not pay them if they discover the marriage is just a convenience between two people to collect benefits. One can have a marriage ANNULLED for failure to consumate the marriage.

And Jillian if all marriage is is a legal contract, how is it fraud if one marries for the express purpose of providing immigrant status? Is that not a legal contract?


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## jillian (Feb 3, 2009)

legal "contract" is your words. 

don't distort what people say.

marriage is a construct of the state. the "religious" issues that go into some marriages, do so at the choice of the people involved, but have nothing to do with the legality of marriage, itself.

that is why if i get divorced, i do so in court. but if i want a religious divorce such that i can get remarried in a temple, then i have to go to a bais din.


----------



## dilloduck (Feb 3, 2009)

AllieBaba said:


> GHook93 said:
> 
> 
> > William Joyce said:
> ...



I hope you just forgot to put up a sarcastic or laughing smilie.


----------



## Care4all (Feb 3, 2009)

Honestly, this has been a great thread that William started and then ran off from....there have been so many side discussions and "What if" discussions that stemmed off of william's original question, and i think i learned a thing or two, about humans or at least confirmed some of my hunches.

I think some women have mostly approached their answers to the various scenarios in a way that defines "cheat" differently than some of the men or at least william has defined in so many words the term "cheat".... women see it as a side "relationship" of intimacy and some men seem to see it as "sex", fullfilling a duty kind of thing.

And yes, there are gender cross overs where women see it as just "sex" as well.... like what i think Catzmeow has indicated, but even with her, i believe intimacy is implied with her 'would hate going the rest of her life without sex' comment.

Many have expressed that intimacy does not necessary take having sex all the time when you are married and I whole heartedly agree, some have mentioned that this is what the 'for better, for worse' means if you have taken religious vows, and you just work through things....and you can if you have the intimacy that i am talking about....because you are still very loving and close, but circumstance has slowed the sex down a bit, could be a hectic, stressful job, or a bunch of rugrats....when you love eachother and have the intimacy down pat....you can get by without the sexual contact with your mate by "taking care of yourself" in the sexual manner through the 'tough times'.

The problem with this, at least according to the Bible, which for Christians, requires you to have sex with one another and even 'good' sex at that, if you pay attention to it.... ,  is that by not having a sexual relationship with your partner (for the reason of just not wanting to), puts your partner in the "reach of temptation"....God built us to want to have sex, a sexual desire....reproduce and multiply is the result....

Not to say that there are not some men and women that do get all the sex in the world at home, but for some reason, still seek it elsewhere...... this usually stems from inner problems of the person cheating....whether it be their own insecurities, high labido, or they are getting the sex at home in a robotic sense, but not the 'intimacy'.


While both are having sex outside the marriage, and both are ultimately cheating, we may not be talking about the same thing here, ya know?

Care


----------



## Red Dawn (Feb 3, 2009)

William Joyce said:


> Would You Cheat on a Spouse?
> 
> What if the spouse just refused to have sex?



That's a stupd question. 

What's the reason she would refuse to have sex?  Does the dude punch her in the face and verbally abuse her?  Or, is there some other intimacy and communication problems in the relationship?   There's a billion reasons loss of intimacy between spouses can happen. 

And none of them justify cheating.  The only ethical answers to your question are:

talk to her.
get couples counseling. 
Or get divorced.


----------



## dilloduck (Feb 3, 2009)

Red Dawn said:


> William Joyce said:
> 
> 
> > Would You Cheat on a Spouse?
> ...




A very touching and helpful response. Deep too !


----------



## RodISHI (Feb 3, 2009)

I think there are many reason people in relationships can get into that rut of no sexual intimacy.

One couple my family knew had a problem in this department. The guy had not touched his wife in 18 years. He was taught and thought sex was only for having children. Two kid's and it stop from there. She was fed up and trying to deal with the problem from her end. She asked her doctor, "What should I do this is driving me crazy." He told her she could leave him, cheat on him or determine to live without sex. 

They were both Catholics. So she was in the quandry of committing a major sin and he would not just have sex with her for all those years because he thought it was a sin. After long thoughts on the matter and trying everything possible to entice her hubby to no avail she decided she was going to cheat. 

(She related this story to my mom)
She got dressed up and went to the nearest town and stopped at the first bar she saw. Nervous as could be she hesitated in her car for a few moment reflecting and asking herself if she could actually do this. Finally she got up the courage to get out of her car and head toward the bar. She walked through the door of the bar and from down at the other end of the bar someone yelled, "Fresh meat!" Mortified she walked back out to her car. Got in and drove home.

In time she and her hubby worked it out and they are now a very happy couple traveling the world together.


----------



## dilloduck (Feb 3, 2009)

RodISHI said:


> I think there are many reason people in relationships can get into that rut of no sexual intimacy.
> 
> One couple my family knew had a problem in this department. The guy had not touched his wife in 18 years. He was taught and thought sex was only for having children. Two kid's and it stop from there. She was fed up and trying to deal with the problem from her end. She asked her doctor, "What should I do this is driving me crazy." He told her she could leave him, cheat on him or determine to live without sex.
> 
> ...



I was wondering why she ran away so fast---gotta work on my pick up lines. 

Good story--thanks


----------



## GHook93 (Feb 3, 2009)

Red Dawn said:


> William Joyce said:
> 
> 
> > Would You Cheat on a Spouse?
> ...


Not true (well maybe in WJ situation, but in most situations its untrue). 

You have the old joke, what is the best birth control medicine a woman can take?
- Wedding Cake


I think after a woman gets married her sex drive goes way down. Then after Jr comes, it is even worse!


----------



## Paulie (Feb 3, 2009)

PoliticalChic said:


> Paulie said:
> 
> 
> > PoliticalChic said:
> ...



So when you said "for better or for worse, in SICKNESS and in health" you were really just kidding?


----------



## Paulie (Feb 3, 2009)

It's amazing to me how easily a liberal can just dismiss something like marriage as ultimately being nothing more than a novelty.

The justification is great, too.  "it's merely a legal contract".  

If you only got married for legal reasons than you _deserve_ to fail.


----------



## PoliticalChic (Feb 3, 2009)

Paulie said:


> PoliticalChic said:
> 
> 
> > Paulie said:
> ...



I think your question says more about you than it says about me.


----------



## Care4all (Feb 3, 2009)

altzheimers is not a good example....unless it is early onset altzeimers because this disease usually comes on in the Senior years and i believe the sexual desires subside by then.....the desire for intimacy may still be there, but not necessarily the sex drive brought on by needing to reproduce, that is there in the subconscious, especially if the couple is around the same age...Reagan got his disease around 75 years old.


----------



## jillian (Feb 3, 2009)

Paulie said:


> It's amazing to me how easily a liberal can just dismiss something like marriage as ultimately being nothing more than a novelty.
> 
> The justification is great, too.  "it's merely a legal contract".
> 
> If you only got married for legal reasons than you _deserve_ to fail.



PC? A liberal?

1. this isn't about liberal/conservative (see: newt gingrich). 2. she's going to come through the computer screen and kick your sorry butt for calilng her that.


----------



## random3434 (Feb 3, 2009)

dilloduck said:


> RodISHI said:
> 
> 
> > I think there are many reason people in relationships can get into that rut of no sexual intimacy.
> ...






    


And the thing is, I can TOTALLY picture you doing that! 


Good one dillo, thanks for making me laugh!


----------



## RodISHI (Feb 3, 2009)

GHook93 said:


> Red Dawn said:
> 
> 
> > William Joyce said:
> ...


When a woman has a child normally her life changes dramactically. Most generally she is fairly busy taking care of the child. In that her time for thinking on her sweetie has changed. He is no longer the sole factor in house that takes up her thoughts. From that point it takes a husband to recognize that and seek to pamper her a bit more with the romance factor. There are a lot of ways to put the romance back into a relationship.

Back in the days of getting super busy there was just very little time for personal time that affected our personal time together. Generally speaking to have time alone it took a motel somewhere.

Then you may have the asshole factor that kicks in at times. When a sweetheart is being an asshole most surely do not feel up to jumping in bed and making wild passionate love.

Passion is something in a relationship you have to build on as the relationship matures.


----------



## Againsheila (Feb 3, 2009)

According to my sister "Men have to have sex to feel loved, women have to feel loved to have sex."

Marriage is work.  My husband and I have a game.  I bought a small cardboard box that plays music.  We take turns hiding it.  Sometimes it takes months before the other person finds it, but when they do, they remember the love we share.  Just one small thing to help keep your marriage alive.


----------



## Paulie (Feb 3, 2009)

jillian said:


> Paulie said:
> 
> 
> > It's amazing to me how easily a liberal can just dismiss something like marriage as ultimately being nothing more than a novelty.
> ...



Where I mentioned liberal, is how the LIBERALS here seem to be able to write off marriage as nothing more than a legal contract...i.e., YOU.

And I didn't make that statement as a direction towards PC.  It was just a generalized statement I made after posting to her.  She's obviously an exception to what otherwise seems to be largely a liberal thought that marriage is disposable.


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## Againsheila (Feb 3, 2009)

Once you have kids, your sex life is basically over...

I once read an idea for getting time with your spouse by keeping your kids busy.  Send them on a scavenger hunt through the house with a list of 20 items.  Mom and Dad's bedroom is off limits.  Only hide 19 items.


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## PoliticalChic (Feb 3, 2009)

jillian said:


> Paulie said:
> 
> 
> > It's amazing to me how easily a liberal can just dismiss something like marriage as ultimately being nothing more than a novelty.
> ...



Jillian, that truly is funny visual!


----------



## jillian (Feb 3, 2009)

funny. pc's position on this issue is pretty much like mine.

but keep on keepin' on.

or do i need to go through the list of "conservatives" who dumped and cheated on their wives like Newt and Henry Hyde?


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## jillian (Feb 3, 2009)

PoliticalChic said:


> jillian said:
> 
> 
> > Paulie said:
> ...



Thank you.


----------



## RodISHI (Feb 3, 2009)

Againsheila said:


> According to my sister "Men have to have sex to feel loved, women have to feel loved to have sex."
> 
> Marriage is work.  My husband and I have a game.  I bought a small cardboard box that plays music.  We take turns hiding it.  Sometimes it takes months before the other person finds it, but when they do, they remember the love we share.  Just one small thing to help keep your marriage alive.


Those little things count for a lot when it comes to keeping a long term relationship alive. Good one Sheila.


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## William Joyce (Feb 8, 2009)

catzmeow said:


> But, there are a whole lot of people out there who are neither sick, nor disabled, who simply have no desire to have sex with their significant other.  They just stop...for reasons that frankly baffle me.  They don't even try.  And then, they expect the other person to remain faithful, to not pursue sex outside the bonds of marriage, and to keep supporting them.
> 
> In general, I've found that the people who choose to stop having sex are women, who still expect the man to keep providing for them financially.  In my friend's case, it has been YEARS since his wife allowed him to have sex with her.  Or, for that matter, to sleep in her bed.  And, this is an attractive man with good hygiene.  There is literally no reason that I can think of that this woman refuses to even TOUCH HIM.  Or, sleep next to him.
> 
> What's wrong with that picture?



Obviously, a lot... but to some of the posters in this thread, he's either got to divorce her or jerk off until one of the two of them dies.  I don't know... I'm all for loyalty, but it seems that in circumstances like this, it wouldn't be immoral to, eh, seek some comfort.

I also think, at the risk of turning this into a men v. women thread, that men are kinda screwed today in marriage.  (I know they are in divorce... read Alex Baldwin's book on this.)  It's basically a function of how feminism gave women a ton of extra rights, but men got nothing in exchange...  for instance, one advantage of a more traditional time was that a woman didn't work all day long and come home as dog-tired as her husband... so maybe sex was a little easier then?  Just guessing.

I understand that marriage and kids are a sacrifice.  Fine with that.  Wouldn't have it any other way... but I do have this one little question about the sex (or "no sex") thing.  It seems to me that's pushing it too far.  The woman of today gets to have her career, her kids, all the comfort and security of a bygone era, doors opened, earmuffs, diamonds, you name it.  But the MAN of today still has to work his ass off, and gets NONE of those little pleasures of yesteryear (can't hang with the fellas, can't have a wife in pearls who kisses him when he gets home, can't have a cigar...)  A lot of the time, he's like a "half woman" around the house (I do most of the vacuuming at my house, for instance)...  I don't know.  It's kinda screwed up, I think, and I know women have legit beefs about modern society.  But men do, too.  Men have been severely busted down over the years, with no let-up in effort they have to expend.

So, not to derail my own thread, but I guess the expectation of fidelity was more rational when the woman was at home as a housewife.  And no, I'm not suggesting that all women be forced out of the workforce, just thinking out loud here.


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## dilloduck (Feb 8, 2009)

William Joyce said:


> catzmeow said:
> 
> 
> > But, there are a whole lot of people out there who are neither sick, nor disabled, who simply have no desire to have sex with their significant other.  They just stop...for reasons that frankly baffle me.  They don't even try.  And then, they expect the other person to remain faithful, to not pursue sex outside the bonds of marriage, and to keep supporting them.
> ...



And you caused quite the stir by doing so I might add !!  Thanks !


----------



## Amanda (Feb 8, 2009)

Againsheila said:


> Once you have kids, your sex life is basically over...


Why should that be?


----------



## Gunny (Feb 8, 2009)

jillian said:


> funny. pc's position on this issue is pretty much like mine.
> 
> but keep on keepin' on.
> 
> or do i need to go through the list of "conservatives" who dumped and cheated on their wives like Newt and Henry Hyde?



Dumping and cheating on your spouse is in fact not conservative at all.  Remaining monogamous is.  I keep telling you you're a neocon.  One day you'll listen.


----------



## Amanda (Feb 8, 2009)

William Joyce said:


> catzmeow said:
> 
> 
> > But, there are a whole lot of people out there who are neither sick, nor disabled, who simply have no desire to have sex with their significant other.  They just stop...for reasons that frankly baffle me.  They don't even try.  And then, they expect the other person to remain faithful, to not pursue sex outside the bonds of marriage, and to keep supporting them.
> ...



I feel for you William. I think there are a lot of things in modern society that aren't fair to men or women. I'm not sure why things change in relationships but I know that no one should be unhappy and feeling unsatisfied. I would suggest honesty and openness. I can take almost anything except being lied to, so if I were with a guy and he were thinking the kinds of things you are thinking I would want to know about it and try to come to some resolution. Seriously, my heart goes out to you.


----------



## Anguille (Feb 8, 2009)

I can't help thinking that Billy just discovered his wife is an octoroon.


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## dilloduck (Feb 8, 2009)

Anguille said:


> I can't help thinking that Billy just discovered his wife is an octoroon.



aw cmon--the guy shows his warm human side and ya gotta just jump on him. No wonder us menfolk don't share our deep feelings .


----------



## Anguille (Feb 9, 2009)

dilloduck said:


> Anguille said:
> 
> 
> > I can't help thinking that Billy just discovered his wife is an octoroon.
> ...



I thought it was because we didn't shave under our wings.


----------



## PoliticalChic (Feb 9, 2009)

William Joyce said:


> catzmeow said:
> 
> 
> > But, there are a whole lot of people out there who are neither sick, nor disabled, who simply have no desire to have sex with their significant other.  They just stop...for reasons that frankly baffle me.  They don't even try.  And then, they expect the other person to remain faithful, to not pursue sex outside the bonds of marriage, and to keep supporting them.
> ...



You've touched on a lot of important issues here.

The rules of the game have changed quite a bit.  When a woman stayed home, and she was a housewife and raised kids, the expectation of sex on a regular basis may have seemed more reasonable.  Today, with most women working out of the house and continuing to cook, doing almost all domestic chores as doing the wash and cleaning the house, and looking after kids' bedtimes and homework, makes for very tired wives.  

The line between husbandly duties and wifely duties have blurred.  If you're living in the 21st century America and you think it's "unmanly" to do the dishes or make a few meals, think again.  There are husbands staying at home raising their kids, while the wives bring home the bacon, is that less manly?  So don't expect to have a perky wife at 10:30 at night if you haven't helped her with the cooking and cleaning, and have expected the house to be in order.  

I've worked outside of the home (due to choice, not necessity) and now I'm home, homeschooling my kids.  While we live a conservative lifestyle, our views toward spouses' roles are not conventional.  My husband has said to me, "You spend too much time in the kitchen..."  He will vacuum if he sees that a room needs vacuuming.  He's more like a frontier type of guy that would prefer to do things for himself.  I also don't mind picking up some tools and putting together a piece of furniture.  

I think men have lost respect in the the current society.  It started with women's lib, but I think that's another thread.  

I agree with Catz, that it is foolish for women to believe that they can refuse sex and the expect the relationship to stay in equilibrium.  What if the husband just refused to do some of the things that were taken for granted?  What if he went on strike and refused to change the oil in the car or forget to mow the lawn?  Maybe that will get her attention.


----------



## GHook93 (Feb 9, 2009)

Againsheila said:


> According to my sister "Men have to have sex to feel loved, women have to feel loved to have sex."


I would change that. "Men have sex to feel pleasure, woment have to feel loved, nutured and in control in order to consider having sex!"

Many women are much more sexual before marriage. Its like if you had your choices of which diner to go to, that diner would have to compete for your business. They would have to be open at reasonable times, including 24 hrs in some cases, offer specials and exotic dishes, give discounts and prepare the food well. Not if all the diner closed down except one (meaning commit to just one), your stuck going to that one. That diner has much less incentive to please the customer. No more 24 hours, in fact most nights the diner is closed, no more specials or maybe the once blue moon special and not more discounts, you have to work for it and the prices increase 10 fold.


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## Anguille (Feb 9, 2009)

PoliticalChic said:


> You've touched on a lot of important issues here.
> 
> The rules of the game have changed quite a bit.  When a woman stayed home, and she was a housewife and raised kids, the expectation of sex on a regular basis may have seemed more reasonable.  Today, with most women working out of the house and continuing to cook, doing almost all domestic chores as doing the wash and cleaning the house, and looking after kids' bedtimes and homework, makes for very tired wives.
> 
> ...



If things reach a point where you are considering refusing sex for reasons other than fatigue or illness, then it's time to take stock before things get worse. But any amount of sex or lack of it is normal, as long as both parties are okay with it. Generally though, there are times when one is in the mood and the other isn't. We are all individuals with separate lives. We have to adjust and accommodate and be open to having our moods changed. Being lovers means being friends who share bodies.


----------



## dilloduck (Feb 9, 2009)

> Being lovers means being friends who share bodies.



at the minimum.


----------



## catzmeow (Feb 9, 2009)

William Joyce said:


> Obviously, a lot... but to some of the posters in this thread, he's either got to divorce her or jerk off until one of the two of them dies.  I don't know... I'm all for loyalty, but it seems that in circumstances like this, it wouldn't be immoral to, eh, seek some comfort.
> 
> I also think, at the risk of turning this into a men v. women thread, that men are kinda screwed today in marriage.  (I know they are in divorce... read Alex Baldwin's book on this.)  It's basically a function of how feminism gave women a ton of extra rights, but men got nothing in exchange...  for instance, one advantage of a more traditional time was that a woman didn't work all day long and come home as dog-tired as her husband... so maybe sex was a little easier then?  Just guessing.



Wait.  I need to pause briefly and laugh my ass off.  One thing men "got" from feminism was not having to carry the burden of the family, financially, alone anymore.  You don't think that's huge, for many men?  I know very few women who are working because they WANT to.  I know a TON who are working because the family needs their income.  If that's the case, then both spouses should share equally in the other responsibility, as well.

As far as cheating, I still think it's immoral.  It's not the fact that you are having sex with another woman that bothers me, it's the dishonesty and deception involved in infidelity.  I would personally advise having an honest conversation with the sexually disinterested spouse.

I'm not saying that you should make an ultimatum, but the spouse who chooses not to have sex should know that he/she is putting you in a difficult position, physically and sexually speaking, and that if the two of you are not going to be havings sex within the bounds of marriage, she is basically pushing you to pursue sex elsewhere.  That isn't an ultimatum, it is a simple reality.  It's saying:  "I need this, and it is reasonable to want it in my marriage.  If you don't want it, then I will go elsewhere so as not to bother you."  Of course, she also has to realize that the risk is great that you may form an emotional connection with someone else, over time, and it may destabilize your marriage.  But, refusing to have sex with your marriage partner is incredibly destabilizing to the marriage.

Don't cheat.  Tell your wife how things are, and allow her to choose between several options.  If you are going to pursue sex outside of your marriage, make sure that your wife has a chance to opt out of that scenario.

In essence, grow a ballsack and a spine.  Deal with your problems openly and honestly.  Tell her the truth.


----------



## PoliticalChic (Feb 9, 2009)

catzmeow said:


> William Joyce said:
> 
> 
> > Obviously, a lot... but to some of the posters in this thread, he's either got to divorce her or jerk off until one of the two of them dies.  I don't know... I'm all for loyalty, but it seems that in circumstances like this, it wouldn't be immoral to, eh, seek some comfort.
> ...



I agree with you for the most of the post except this one point.  I have met women who don't have to work, but choose to because they don't want to stay home with the kids.  One woman told me that she gets depressed when she stays at home.  People's lifestyles can be changed to varying degrees if they believe that one parent should be home with the kids.


----------



## catzmeow (Feb 9, 2009)

PoliticalChic said:


> I agree with you for the most of the post except this one point.  I have met women who don't have to work, but choose to because they don't want to stay home with the kids.  One woman told me that she gets depressed when she stays at home.  People's lifestyles can be changed to varying degrees if they believe that one parent should be home with the kids.



I know very few people in my area who could survive financially without the wife working.  But then, we're all middle class.


----------



## Arthur (Feb 9, 2009)

Yes and no.


----------



## Truthspeaker (Feb 9, 2009)

William Joyce said:


> What if the spouse just refused to have sex?



Never cheat. Just leave her.


----------



## Arthur (Feb 9, 2009)

William Joyce--

Don't cheat even for the reason in the OP.    Been there, done that.  It's a disaster.


----------



## PoliticalChic (Feb 9, 2009)

Anguille said:


> PoliticalChic said:
> 
> 
> > You've touched on a lot of important issues here.
> ...



I sometimes question the legitamcy of the fatigue factor.  How often can one use that excuse and get away with it.  You can't call in to work and say, "I'm a bit worn out today..."

When your kids are hungry, one can't say, "Go fix your own supper because I'm too tired..."

At some point, the spouse will get angry to a point beyond words.


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## Anguille (Feb 9, 2009)

Sounds like a louse of a spouse.


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## Arthur (Feb 9, 2009)

So, Political Chick--you put out even when you don't feel like it?    Cause it's like feeding your kids?  Marital duty?


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## PoliticalChic (Feb 9, 2009)

Arthur said:


> So, Political Chick--you put out even when you don't feel like it?    Cause it's like feeding your kids?  Marital duty?



My husband wants sex all the time and his desire hasn't waned one bit since we first met over 15 years ago.  Use your imagination.  LOL.  It helps that he works out 3x a week and can easily charm the pants off me.


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## 007 (Feb 9, 2009)

PoliticalChic said:


> Arthur said:
> 
> 
> > So, Political Chick--you put out even when you don't feel like it?    Cause it's like feeding your kids?  Marital duty?
> ...



If that's the case, you probably look pretty good still too...


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## Arthur (Feb 9, 2009)

PoliticalChic said:


> Arthur said:
> 
> 
> > So, Political Chick--you put out even when you don't feel like it?    Cause it's like feeding your kids?  Marital duty?
> ...



I thought you were saying you had to 'lie back and think of England".


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## PoliticalChic (Feb 9, 2009)

Pale Rider said:


> PoliticalChic said:
> 
> 
> > Arthur said:
> ...



I don't deny it.  I think it turns him on that I still turn heads.


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