# F-22 Stealth Fighter Cover-up?



## waltky

Granny gonna keep her eagle eye on this one...

*Mystery of F-22 illnesses grows*
_May 9th, 2012 : Even as the Air Force searches for the reason pilots are getting sick flying the F-22, a new mystery about the troubled stealth fighter jet has come to light: Why are mechanics on the ground getting sick in the plane as well?_


> The Air Force has been looking into a number of reports that pilots experienced "hypoxia-like symptoms" aboard F-22s since April 2008. Hypoxia is oxygen deficiency.  The Air Force reports 25 cases of such systems, including 11 since September, when the service cleared the F-22 fleet to return to flight after a four-month grounding.  The fleet was grounded in May 2011 so the service could check the hypoxia reports, but the order was lifted in September under a "return to fly" plan, with equipment modifications and new rules including daily inspections of the life-support systems.  "Early on in the return to fly we had five maintainers that reported hypoxia symptoms," Gen. Daniel Wyman, command surgeon for the Air Combat Command, said during a conference call with reporters Wednesday.
> 
> The maintainers are mechanics on the F-22's ground crews who sometimes have to be in the cockpit while the jet's engine is doing a ground run.  "The maintainers, when they are doing their ground run, are not on the mask, they are in the cockpit," Wyman said.  The problem with maintainers getting sick while on the ground throws a wrench into some of the theories about why at least 25 pilots have suffered hypoxia symptoms.  The Air Force experts trying to figure out the cause of the problem have pointed out that the F-22 flies higher and faster than its predecessors, the F-15 and F-16.
> 
> There has also been speculation that there perhaps could be a problem with the system that feeds oxygen to the pilot's mask while in flight.  Asked what is causing the symptoms in maintainers on the ground, not wearing a mask, Wyman said, "I can't answer that at this time."  Sunday, two F-22 pilots told CBS's "60 Minutes" that they would not fly the jet any more. One of the reasons they gave was that there is a problem with the carbon filter built into their mask to help remove contaminants from the air they breathe.
> 
> Wyman said that "a black dust was noted in some of the breathing hoses near the filters. We analyzed this dust and found it to be activated carbon."  But no activated carbon was found in "30 pilots who had their throat swabbed for testing."  Activated carbon is an inert form of charcoal that has been used in air filters for years.  Nonetheless, the Air Force has decided to remove carbon filters from the F-22 pilot masks.  The Air Force said Tuesday that no disciplinary action will be taken against the pilots for taking their concerns to "60 Minutes."
> 
> Mystery of F-22 illnesses grows &#8211; CNN Security Clearance - CNN.com Blogs









See also:

*Lt. General: No retaliation against F-22 whistleblowers*
_May 9th, 2012 - The Air Force won't take disciplinary action against pilots whove raised concerns about or refused to fly F-22 Raptors because of reports of cockpit oxygen deprivation, an Air Force official told a Senate panel Tuesday, saying theyre covered by a federal whistleblower act._


> The whistleblower protection extends to two Virginia Air National Guard pilots who recently talked to CBSs 60 Minutes about their refusal to fly the stealth jets, Lt. Gen. Janet Wolfenbarger told the Senate Armed Services subcommittee.
> 
> My understanding is that  the chief and the secretary in the Air Force have issued direction that these individuals are protected and that no negative action be taken, Wolfenbarger told U.S. Sen. Scott Brown, R-Massachusetts.
> 
> The Air Force has been looking into a number of reports that pilots experienced hypoxia-like symptoms aboard F-22s since April 2008. Hypoxia is oxygen deficiency.
> 
> CNN Security Clearance - CNN.com Blogs


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## onecut39

waltky said:


> Granny gonna keep her eagle eye on this one...
> 
> *Mystery of F-22 illnesses grows*
> _May 9th, 2012 : Even as the Air Force searches for the reason pilots are getting sick flying the F-22, a new mystery about the troubled stealth fighter jet has come to light: Why are mechanics on the ground getting sick in the plane as well?_
> 
> 
> 
> The Air Force has been looking into a number of reports that pilots experienced "hypoxia-like symptoms" aboard F-22s since April 2008. Hypoxia is oxygen deficiency.  The Air Force reports 25 cases of such systems, including 11 since September, when the service cleared the F-22 fleet to return to flight after a four-month grounding.  The fleet was grounded in May 2011 so the service could check the hypoxia reports, but the order was lifted in September under a "return to fly" plan, with equipment modifications and new rules including daily inspections of the life-support systems.  "Early on in the return to fly we had five maintainers that reported hypoxia symptoms," Gen. Daniel Wyman, command surgeon for the Air Combat Command, said during a conference call with reporters Wednesday.
> 
> The maintainers are mechanics on the F-22's ground crews who sometimes have to be in the cockpit while the jet's engine is doing a ground run.  "The maintainers, when they are doing their ground run, are not on the mask, they are in the cockpit," Wyman said.  The problem with maintainers getting sick while on the ground throws a wrench into some of the theories about why at least 25 pilots have suffered hypoxia symptoms.  The Air Force experts trying to figure out the cause of the problem have pointed out that the F-22 flies higher and faster than its predecessors, the F-15 and F-16.
> 
> There has also been speculation that there perhaps could be a problem with the system that feeds oxygen to the pilot's mask while in flight.  Asked what is causing the symptoms in maintainers on the ground, not wearing a mask, Wyman said, "I can't answer that at this time."  Sunday, two F-22 pilots told CBS's "60 Minutes" that they would not fly the jet any more. One of the reasons they gave was that there is a problem with the carbon filter built into their mask to help remove contaminants from the air they breathe.
> 
> Wyman said that "a black dust was noted in some of the breathing hoses near the filters. We analyzed this dust and found it to be activated carbon."  But no activated carbon was found in "30 pilots who had their throat swabbed for testing."  Activated carbon is an inert form of charcoal that has been used in air filters for years.  Nonetheless, the Air Force has decided to remove carbon filters from the F-22 pilot masks.  The Air Force said Tuesday that no disciplinary action will be taken against the pilots for taking their concerns to "60 Minutes."
> 
> Mystery of F-22 illnesses grows  CNN Security Clearance - CNN.com Blogs
> 
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> 
> See also:
> 
> *Lt. General: No retaliation against F-22 whistleblowers*
> _May 9th, 2012 - The Air Force won't take disciplinary action against pilots whove raised concerns about or refused to fly F-22 Raptors because of reports of cockpit oxygen deprivation, an Air Force official told a Senate panel Tuesday, saying theyre covered by a federal whistleblower act._
> 
> 
> 
> The whistleblower protection extends to two Virginia Air National Guard pilots who recently talked to CBSs 60 Minutes about their refusal to fly the stealth jets, Lt. Gen. Janet Wolfenbarger told the Senate Armed Services subcommittee.
> 
> My understanding is that  the chief and the secretary in the Air Force have issued direction that these individuals are protected and that no negative action be taken, Wolfenbarger told U.S. Sen. Scott Brown, R-Massachusetts.
> 
> The Air Force has been looking into a number of reports that pilots experienced hypoxia-like symptoms aboard F-22s since April 2008. Hypoxia is oxygen deficiency.
> 
> CNN Security Clearance - CNN.com Blogs
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...



The F22.  The most expensive, complex and useless fighter in history.


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## whitehall

During WW2 they had a full proof method for working out design flaws and taking care of fighters that were hard to fly. They gave them to the Marines. The Corsair was one.


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## Ringel05

The early B-29s were built before testing was completed and before the prototype even flew.  They were plagued with problems until just before the end of the war when new engines were developed but it was too late to install them until after the war.


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## waltky

Mebbe dey could fit `em up with oxygen tanks like dey got on scuba gear...

*Pentagon restricts F-22 flights, safety a concern*
_16 May`12  WASHINGTON (AP)  Facing a mysterious safety problem with the Air Force's most-prized stealth fighter, Defense Secretary Leon Panetta on Tuesday ordered new flight restrictions on the F-22 and summoned help from Navy and NASA experts._


> Panetta endorsed Air Force efforts to figure out why some F-22 pilots have experienced dizziness and other symptoms of an oxygen shortage while flying, but his personal intervention signaled a new urgency. A secretary of defense does not normally get involved in a service-specific safety issue unless it is of great concern.  The Air Force grounded its F-22s for four months last year because of the oxygen-deficit problem, and now some pilots are refusing to fly them. An Air Force advisory panel headed by a retired Air Force general studied the problem for seven months and reported in March that it could not pinpoint the root cause. It endorsed a plan keeping the aircraft flying, however, with pilots using special sensors, filters and other safety precautions.
> 
> Panetta was briefed on the problem last Friday, just days after a CBS "60 Minutes" report featured two F-22 pilots who said that during some flights they and other pilots have experienced oxygen deprivation, disorientation and other problems. They cited safety concerns as well as the potential for long-term personal health issues.  Asked why Panetta was acting now, Navy Capt. John Kirby, a Pentagon spokesman, said the defense chief has been aware of the F-22 problem "for quite some time." In light of the recent deployment of several F-22s to the Persian Gulf and because of pilots' expressions of alarm, Panetta chose to "dive a little more deeply into the issue."
> 
> In a letter to Air Force Secretary Michael Donley, Panetta ordered that F-22 flights remain "within proximity of potential landing locations" so that pilots can land quickly in the event they experience an oxygen-deficit problem. Kirby said the specifics of those flight restrictions are to be set by individual F-22 pilots and commanders.  Panetta also told Donley to accelerate the installation of an automatic backup oxygen system in each F-22. The first of those is to be ready for use by December, Kirby said.  And the Pentagon chief ordered the Air Force to call on the expertise of the Navy and NASA in pursuit of a solution.
> 
> Panetta's actions have no immediate effect on U.S. combat operations, since the F-22 is not in Afghanistan. But Panetta said the plane would give up long-distance air patrol missions in Alaska until the planes have an automatic backup oxygen system installed or until Panetta agrees the F-22 can resume those flights. Other aircraft will perform those missions in the meantime.  Panetta's chief spokesman, George Little, told reporters that Panetta supports the Air Force's efforts to get to the bottom of the problem.  "However, the safety of our pilots remains his first and foremost concern," Little said.
> 
> MORE


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## whitehall

The F4U Corsair developed in 1938 was a engineering disaster. The long nose stuck out 14 feet from the pilot and made it difficult to see the deck or the flight control officer. The battery was in the cockpit and had a tendency to boil over with noxious gasses and chronic hydraulic leaks smeared the windshield with oil. The landing gear struts were too stiff and it bounced around like a tennis ball during carrier landing. The engine was so powerful that it was difficult to start and it was fitted with a shotgun shell starting system that was entirely inadequate. The land based Marines loved the "hog" though and the big powerful engine was ideal for Boyington's "Black Sheep"


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## waltky

Granny says so far it sounds like a white-wash to her...

*Air Force cites progress on F-22 oxygen mystery*
_14 June`12  WASHINGTON (AP)  The Air Force believes it is getting much closer to pinpointing the reason why pilots of its prized F-22 stealth fighters sometimes suffer an oxygen deficit during flight, a senior general said Thursday._


> The problem prompted the Air Force to ground the aircraft for a period in 2011, and Defense Secretary Leon Panetta last month ordered new flight restrictions after CBS' 60 Minutes program aired interviews with F-22 pilots who complained about the oxygen problem.  Maj. Gen. Charles Lyon, who is managing the Air Force's effort to resolve the mysterious problem, said in an Associated Press interview that it is likely that the pilots' symptoms are caused by previously unknown restrictions on their breathing.  "We're not ready to declare victory yet," he said, but this is the first time the Air Force has narrowed down the likely cause. Lyon said he also is close to ruling out another theory: That contaminants were getting into the pilot's lungs via the oxygen delivery system that is connected by hose to their flight helmets.
> 
> Lyon said he is satisfied, after extensive testing, that no harmful contaminants are moving through the oxygen system. He is the director of operations for Air Force Combat Command and has been leading the F-22 work since January.  Lyon said the root of the problem, which has caused some F-22 pilots to feel dizzy and experience other symptoms of hypoxia, or oxygen deprivation, may turn out to be linked to two issues:
> 
>  Improper functioning of the pilots' pressure, or G-force, vest. Lyon said that, unknown to the pilots, the vest's bladder has been filling with air at times when it should not. That has made it harder for the pilots to breath. The Air Force last Friday stopped using the vests and is going to modify them before returning them to use in the F-22, Lyon said. In the meantime the Air Force has lowered the maximum altitude the F-22 will fly, since the vests are intended to protect pilots' lungs in the event of a sudden loss of cockpit air pressure at high altitudes.
> 
>  The hose and hose connectors that are part of the pilot's oxygen delivery system have been leaking slightly, further restricting the amount of oxygen getting to the pilot's lungs.
> 
> Lyon said additional testing will be done before the Air Force can be certain that these restrictions are the root of the problem.  The Air Force has come under fire from some in Congress for not taking quicker action to fix the problem. Two leading critics, Sen. Mark Warner, D-Va., and Rep. Adam Kinzinger, R-Ill., told reporters Thursday they believe the Air Force needs to be more open with the public about the issue.  Warner and Kinzinger also said that information they received from the Air Force this week indicates that the oxygen-deficit problem is greater than the Air Force had previously believed.
> 
> MORE



See also:






*Sources: Flight suit could be cause of oxygen loss in F-22 flights*
_June 13th, 2012 - Air Force investigators believe a specialized flight suit could be partially responsible for some pilots experiencing a lack of oxygen while flying the F-22 fighter jet, according to a report by Air Force investigators._


> Investigators are focusing on part of the suit, called the "Combat Edge," which hampers breathing and causes oxygen loss when combined with a physiological condition that collapses air sacs in the lungs, according to details of the report that were shared with Security Clearance.  The findings are expected to be part of the first monthly update by Air Force investigators to Secretary of Defense Leon Panetta to be delivered later this week or early next week, according to sources familiar with the investigation.  The findings are expected to be part of the first monthly update by Air Force investigators to Secretary of Defense Leon Panetta to be delivered later this week or early next week, according to sources familiar with the investigation.  Last month, Panetta ordered the updates on the investigation after the Air Force could not identify the cause of the continued issues with pilots complaining about coming close to passing out while flying the plane, which the service called "hypoxia-like symptoms."
> 
> Combat Edge is a vest-like garment that expands and contracts on a pilot's torso to fight the effects of severe G-forces experienced while flying the F-22. The problem being looked at is that the garment may restrict the pilots' breathing beyond what is intended, according to sources familiar with the report.  Another possible problem for pilots, the report is expected to say, is a condition called acceleration atelectasis, which causes a pilot's lungs to not effectively deliver oxygen to the bloodstream. The condition for F-22 pilots is caused when extreme gravity and breathing almost pure oxygen in the F-22 cockpit partially collapse air sacs in the lungs, according to the sources.  Acceleration atelectasis causes a heavy cough, which F-22 pilots have called the "Raptor cough" after the nickname of the fighter, "Raptor."
> 
> Pilots have complained about the cough in connection with the hypoxia-like conditions as they fly the F-22, the most technologically advanced plane in history, often at altitudes much higher than regular aircraft fly. The pilots also perform maneuvers that put their bodies through extreme conditions.  In an e-mail response to questions by Security Clearance, Air Force spokesman Lt. Col. John Dorrian said, "Recent testing has identified some vulnerability and reliability issues in the upper pressure garment worn by F-22 pilots. Air Combat Command has directed pilots to remove the upper pressure garment during routine flight operations, and Air Force officials are developing a fix to overcome the identified issues."  The findings in the update report to be given to Panetta are not final, according to the sources. Air Force officials say investigators are narrowing down the cause of the problem, which has intermittently plagued the aircraft since 2008.The problem compounded in September 2011 as more pilots complained of experiencing the symptoms.
> 
> The Combat Edge problem does not explain why some mechanics have also suffered from hypoxia while working on the planes on the ground.  The fleet was grounded in May 2011 so the service could check the hypoxia reports, but the order was lifted in September under a "return to fly" plan, with equipment modifications and new rules including daily inspections of the life-support systems.  Investigators initially pointed to an onboard oxygen generating system that pilots used to breathe as a possible cause.  Lockheed Martin, the maker of the jet, was given a $19 million contract to install a backup oxygen system in the F-22 last week.  Last month, Panetta mandated that all F-22 flights "remain within the proximity of potential landing locations" to ensure the ability to recover and land should a pilot run into "unanticipated physiological conditions."
> 
> Source


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## waltky

Granny says dey need to fix dat...

*Oxygen problems far more likely in F-22 than other fighter jets*
_June 15th, 2012 : Pilots flying the F-22 Raptor reported illness from oxygen deprivation incidents 10 times as often as pilots of other fighter jets, according to Air Force data._


> The F-22 has been the focus of an Air Force inquiry because of the oxygen problems.  The new data, released by Sen. Mark Warner, D-Virginia, and Rep. Adam Kinzinger, R-Illinois, shows Raptor pilots have reported 26.43 hypoxia and hypoxia-like incidents per 100,000 flight hours. While that represents a mere fraction of total flight hours, it is far higher than incidents from other Air Force aircraft, including the A-10, the F-15E and the F-16.
> 
> Kinzinger, a military pilot himself, said that while low, the numbers are extremely concerning. Kinzinger and Warner have been vocal in pressing the Air Force to investigate the concerns after two pilots came forward about the problem on CBS's "60 Minutes."The problem puts pilots in "a vulnerable situation, because potentially, you have a pilot who at the beginning stages of hypoxia-like symptoms, really can't, you know, think things through, has a hard time making those judgment calls," Kinzinger told CNN's Soledad O'Brien in an interview on the CNN morning show "Starting Point."  "You really do lose your cognitive ability," he said. "So - well, you do this to recognize your symptoms. Everybody has different symptoms. For me, actually, I start finding everything pretty funny. But then you have a hard time."
> 
> The Air Force continues to investigate the hypoxia problem.  Investigators are looking at whether a compression vest worn as part of the flight suit contributes to the problem, CNN's Mike Mount reported Wednesday.  Investigators are focusing on a part of the suit called the Combat Edge, which can hamper breathing and cause oxygen loss when combined with a physiological condition that collapses air sacs in the lungs, according to details of the report that were shared with CNN Security Clearance.  Combat Edge is a vest-like garment that expands and contracts on a pilot's torso to fight the effects of severe G-forces experienced while flying the F-22.  What is being looked at is whether the garment may restrict the pilots' breathing beyond what is intended, according to sources familiar with the report.  "In many cases, those vests were actually failing in high-G scenarios," Kinzinger said Friday. "So, at this point, it seems like the most likely place to pursue."
> 
> But the problem has proven vexing, especially since there have been incidents of mechanics on the ground having the same symptoms, and some pilots also experiencing hypoxia at lower altitudes.  "The Air Force has explained that these maintainers, you know, had symptoms, but they actually weren't related," Kinzinger said.  "I think it's very important that we take a deep look in that, because if they are related, then the high pressure, the upper vest suit, isn't the issue.  And I think the other big issue, too, is maintainers and pilots have to feel comfortable to come forward and talk about their concerns."
> 
> The fleet was grounded in May 2011 so the service could check the hypoxia reports, but the order was lifted in September under a "return to fly" plan, with equipment modifications and new rules including daily inspections of the life-support systems.  Investigators initially pointed to an onboard oxygen-generating system that feeds pilots' air supply as a possible cause.  Lockheed Martin, the maker of the jet, was given a $19 million contract to install a backup oxygen system in the F-22 last week.  Last month, Defense Secretary Leon Panetta mandated that all F-22 flights "remain within the proximity of potential landing locations" to ensure the ability to recover and land should a pilot run into "unanticipated physiological conditions."
> 
> Source


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## Mad Scientist

The Defense Department should throw some more money at it. The F-22 is "Too Big to Fail".


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## Moonglow

or we could give it to our enemies


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## waltky

Mad wrote: _The Defense Department should throw some more money at it. The F-22 is "Too Big to Fail"._

Or in this case, Too Big to Fall...

*More problems for F-22 beyond mysterious oxygen loss issue*
_July 16th, 2012 : Two recent in-flight emergencies involving troubled oxygen systems in the F-22 "Raptor" are unrelated to other, more worrisome breathing problems pilots have experienced for more than a year when flying the plane, according to U.S. Air Force officials._


> The Air Force has been investigating why a number of F-22 pilots have experienced a mysterious loss of oxygen while in the air, causing dizziness and confusion known as hypoxia, since spring 2011.  But two recent incidents related to the F-22 oxygen system are considered regular mechanical issues not connected to the oxygen deprivation investigation, according to Air Force Lt. Col. Tadd Sholtis, a spokesman for the Air Force's Air Combat Command.  "The recent incidents that have resulted in new expressions of concern are of a different kind than the ones we have been focused on in recent months," Sholtis told CNN's Security Clearance.
> 
> Air Force officials have labeled the number of unexplained F-22 breathing incidents as "cause unknown," while labeling the two recent incidents as "cause known.  The latest problems prompted two members of Congress, Sen. Mark Warner, D-Virginia, and Rep. Adam Kinzinger, R-Illinois, to send a letter to the Air Force secretary last week demanding answers.  In an e-mail response to Security Clearance, Sholtis sent information on what Air Force initial investigations found in the two recent incidents. Sholtis said the mechanical issues were "not specific to the F-22 aircraft."  One of the incidents, an oxygen system malfunction on July 6, is still under investigation by the Air Force and the plane remains grounded, according to the Air Force information provided by Sholtis, but the incident is still listed as a "cause known" problem.
> 
> While returning from a training mission, the pilot from the 154th Wing of the Hawaii Air National Guard received a warning indication that the Onboard Oxygen Generating System (OBOGS) was malfunctioning and declared an in-flight emergency.  "The pilot experienced a hypoxic symptom in conjunction with the aircraft warning and activated the emergency oxygen system," according to the information given to Security Clearance. The pilot recovered and landed the plane without a problem after receiving emergency oxygen.  "The pilot has no lingering physiological effects and has returned to flight status. More details will be available when the investigation is complete, but we're confident the annunciation of the OBOGS warning during the flight points to the cause, which was a malfunction within the OBOGS," according to the information.
> 
> On June 26, an F-22 pilot from the 1st Fighter Wing was conducting routine flight operations out of Langley Air Force Base in Virginia. The pilot reported a "temporary restriction," in breathing and "was not receiving the normal flow of oxygen through the hose," to his face mask as he was on final approach. The pilot was able to land the plane safely, according to the information.  After parking the plane, the pilot remained in the cockpit and was instructed to engage the emergency oxygen system, the information said. The emergency system shoots pure oxygen into a pilot's mask as part of a safety protocol.  While the pilot was breathing the emergency air, he reported tightness in his chest for a short time, according to the information from Sholtis. It was later diagnosed as atelectasis related to breathing a high concentration of oxygen, the statement said. Altelectasis is defined as a partial or total lung collapse.
> 
> MORE


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## waltky

Granny says dat's the gubmint tellin' it - still remains to be seen...

*After four years Air Force confident it has found F-22 problem source*
_July 31st, 2012 - An imperfect valve, a filter meant to protect pilots from chemical and biological threats, and decades-old vest technology combined to cause problems that grounded the state-of-the-art F-22 fighter jet, according to Air Force Maj. Gen. Charles Lyon, director of operations for Air Combat Command._


> "We determined with confidence the source of the unexplained physiological incident resides in the F-22 cockpit," Lyon said.  The Air Force has been investigating why a number of F-22 pilots have experienced a mysterious loss of oxygen while in the air, causing dizziness and confusion known as hypoxia, since spring 2011. Oxygen problems that have caused hypoxia-like symptoms in pilots and ground crew members have occurred for the past four years.
> 
> In recent months, Air Force officials, under pressure from Congress and Secretary of Defense Leon Panetta, have searched for a root cause of the problem and have thoroughly examined the system as a whole and found what they believes is the cause.  "In the end there is no smoking gun," Lyon told reporters at the Pentagon Tuesday during a briefing laying out the details of the findings.
> 
> The Air Force found four main components to the cause of the problem:
> 
>  The upper pressure garment, or vest, that the pilots were wearing
> 
>  The oxygen-delivery hoses on the vest
> 
>  The valve in the quick connection point in those hoses
> 
>  An air filter on the hoses designed to filter out chemical and biological agents
> 
> The Air Force had checked each of those parts of the system independently and they all worked as expected. But only once had the service checked the entire system together.  "There was a rudimentary testing that was done on the vest and it said that it inflates early and that it impedes the mobility of the pilot in the cockpit, and that was it. They didn't study the long term physiological impact of having this inflated," Lyon said.  After that rudimentary test was done, the entire F-22 fleet was grounded, but is now flying with limits on how high the planes can fly and how far from a safe landing strip they can go.
> 
> MORE


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## waltky

F-35 Joint Strike Fighter has shortcomings that will get pilots shot down...

*New Pentagon super fighter will get pilots shot down, warns report*
_Wednesday, March 6, 2013 - The U.S. Air Force version of the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter has shortcomings that will get pilots shot down in combat, according to a leaked Pentagon report evaluating combat testing of the plane._


> The out-of-cockpit visibility in the F-35A is less than other Air Force fighter aircraft, states the report from the Defense Department's Directorate of Operational Test and Evaluation, referring to a pilots ability to see the sky around them.  Test pilots comments quoted in the report are more blunt.  The head rest is too large and will impede aft [rear] visibility and survivability during surface and air engagements, said one. Aft visibility will get the pilot gunned [down] every time in dogfights, opined another.
> 
> The report, known as an Operational Utility Evaluation, was posted online by spending watchdog the Project on Government Oversight.  A spokesman for Bethesda, Md.-based Lockheed Martin, the lead contractor on the $400 billion multi-service F-35 program, which is developing three different versions of the plane for the Air Force, Marine Corps and Navy, defended the aircrafts performance.
> 
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> 
> An F-35 B Lightning II from VMFA 121 roars off the runway at Marine Corps Air Station in Yuma, Ariz. on March 1, 2013.
> 
> The Air Force undertook its own Operational Utility Evaluation on the F-35A last year, said Lockheed Spokesman Michael J. Rein. The services Air Evaluation and Training  Command found the plane ready to conduct safe and effective flying training operations, he said.  In addition to limited visibility, the aircrafts much touted multi-million dollar electronic helmet mounted display  which is supposed to project important technical information onto the faceplate of the pilots helmet  presented frequent problems for the pilots, according to the report.
> 
> These included misalignment of the virtual horizon display with the actual horizon, inoperative or flickering displays, and focal problems  where the pilot would have either blurry or double vision in the display, the report states.  The report shows that the F-35A is flawed beyond redemption, commented POGO staffer and veteran defense spending analyst Winslow Wheeler.  The Air Force did not immediately respond to a request for comment.
> 
> Read more: New Pentagon super fighter will get pilots shot down, warns report - Washington Times


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## there4eyeM

The F35 is the $400 000 000 000.00 failure that, if anything could, should put the coup de grace to enormous waste for useless weapons.


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## Politico

Coverup means no one knows. The problems are well known. That why they grounded them duh.


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## SteadyMercury

So many weapons platforms that went on to be quite successful encountered complains, skepticism, and issues during development.


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## emptystep

Some of that technology comes back to civilian use. Ever hear of a company named BBN?


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## SteadyMercury

Isn't that a porn category? Wait maybe I'm seeing that wrong.


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## waltky

F-22 Raptor cover-up...

*Pilot's career stalls after criticizing oxygen system*
_April 20, 2014 ~ The Air Force has spent tens of millions of dollars over the past two years correcting problems with its premier jet fighter -- issues that Capt. Joshua Wilson helped expose by speaking up, both to his bosses and on national television._


> Since then, Wilson's career as an F-22 Raptor pilot has stalled. A member of the Virginia Air National Guard's 149th Fighter Squadron, Wilson hasn't been permitted to fly the jet since early 2012. He's fighting disciplinary actions that he sees as retribution for going public.  "I'm a fighter pilot. I worked my entire life to get in the cockpit and to that job," said Wilson, who is 37. "Right now, I'm fighting the Air Force when I should be fighting our enemies."  Almost two years ago, Wilson and Maj. Jeremy Gordon told CBS's "60 Minutes" that the F-22 had a defective oxygen system that was endangering pilots.  The veteran aviators, dressed in their Virginia Air National Guard flight suits, shared their personal accounts of mid-flight oxygen deprivation that left them disoriented. Other pilots had similar life-threatening experiences but were reluctant to speak publicly, they said.
> 
> The Pentagon's top brass took notice.  Then-Defense Secretary Leon Panetta demanded that Air Force leaders accelerate their efforts to fix the problem. He asked NASA and the Navy to help, and he restricted Raptor flights so pilots experiencing problems would be close to a landing field. Members of Congress weighed in, too.  Back at Langley Air Force Base, Virginia Air National Guard leaders were also taking action. Even before the "60 Minutes" segment aired in May 2012, the squadron's leadership began a series of punitive measures against Wilson.  In April 2012, they stopped his planned promotion to major, and they threatened to take away his wings, jeopardizing his military career.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The first operational F-22A Raptor is flown to its permanent home at Langley Air Force Base, Va.
> 
> They also forced him out of his full-time desk job with the Air Force's Air Combat Command at Langley.  During that time, Wilson alerted the Department of Defense's office of inspector general, which is investigating. He and his lawyers say the Virginia Air National Guard's actions are reprisal for speaking out.  Cotton Puryear, a Virginia National Guard spokesman, declined to discuss the actions against Wilson. Guard leaders are waiting for the inspector general's probe to be completed before they "take appropriate action to resolve any outstanding issues," Puryear wrote in an email.  No such disciplinary problems haunt Maj. Jeremy Gordon, who sat next to Wilson in the interview with "60 Minutes" correspondent Lesley Stahl.
> 
> Gordon, a decorated pilot who flew an F-16 in the Iraq War, voluntarily stopped flying the Raptor in mid-2012. He remains a part of the squadron, flying a T-38 trainer jet.  "There are not and never were any personnel actions initiated regarding Maj. Gordon," Puryear wrote.  Wilson said he has refused overtures from his leaders to walk away. He wants a chance to clear his reputation and get back in the cockpit.  "If you guys can prove I'm a bad officer, kick me out of the military," he said. "If not, let me get back to my job. Let me get back to what I love to do, what I'm good at and what I trained my entire life to do."
> 
> MORE


----------



## Dot Com

onecut39 said:


> waltky said:
> 
> 
> 
> Granny gonna keep her eagle eye on this one...
> 
> *Mystery of F-22 illnesses grows*
> _May 9th, 2012 : Even as the Air Force searches for the reason pilots are getting sick flying the F-22, a new mystery about the troubled stealth fighter jet has come to light: Why are mechanics on the ground getting sick in the plane as well?_
> 
> 
> 
> The Air Force has been looking into a number of reports that pilots experienced "hypoxia-like symptoms" aboard F-22s since April 2008. Hypoxia is oxygen deficiency.  The Air Force reports 25 cases of such systems, including 11 since September, when the service cleared the F-22 fleet to return to flight after a four-month grounding.  The fleet was grounded in May 2011 so the service could check the hypoxia reports, but the order was lifted in September under a "return to fly" plan, with equipment modifications and new rules including daily inspections of the life-support systems.  "Early on in the return to fly we had five maintainers that reported hypoxia symptoms," Gen. Daniel Wyman, command surgeon for the Air Combat Command, said during a conference call with reporters Wednesday.
> 
> The maintainers are mechanics on the F-22's ground crews who sometimes have to be in the cockpit while the jet's engine is doing a ground run.  "The maintainers, when they are doing their ground run, are not on the mask, they are in the cockpit," Wyman said.  The problem with maintainers getting sick while on the ground throws a wrench into some of the theories about why at least 25 pilots have suffered hypoxia symptoms.  The Air Force experts trying to figure out the cause of the problem have pointed out that the F-22 flies higher and faster than its predecessors, the F-15 and F-16.
> 
> There has also been speculation that there perhaps could be a problem with the system that feeds oxygen to the pilot's mask while in flight.  Asked what is causing the symptoms in maintainers on the ground, not wearing a mask, Wyman said, "I can't answer that at this time."  Sunday, two F-22 pilots told CBS's "60 Minutes" that they would not fly the jet any more. One of the reasons they gave was that there is a problem with the carbon filter built into their mask to help remove contaminants from the air they breathe.
> 
> Wyman said that "a black dust was noted in some of the breathing hoses near the filters. We analyzed this dust and found it to be activated carbon."  But no activated carbon was found in "30 pilots who had their throat swabbed for testing."  Activated carbon is an inert form of charcoal that has been used in air filters for years.  Nonetheless, the Air Force has decided to remove carbon filters from the F-22 pilot masks.  The Air Force said Tuesday that no disciplinary action will be taken against the pilots for taking their concerns to "60 Minutes."
> 
> Mystery of F-22 illnesses grows  CNN Security Clearance - CNN.com Blogs
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> See also:
> 
> *Lt. General: No retaliation against F-22 whistleblowers*
> _May 9th, 2012 - The Air Force won't take disciplinary action against pilots whove raised concerns about or refused to fly F-22 Raptors because of reports of cockpit oxygen deprivation, an Air Force official told a Senate panel Tuesday, saying theyre covered by a federal whistleblower act._
> 
> 
> 
> The whistleblower protection extends to two Virginia Air National Guard pilots who recently talked to CBSs 60 Minutes about their refusal to fly the stealth jets, Lt. Gen. Janet Wolfenbarger told the Senate Armed Services subcommittee.
> 
> My understanding is that  the chief and the secretary in the Air Force have issued direction that these individuals are protected and that no negative action be taken, Wolfenbarger told U.S. Sen. Scott Brown, R-Massachusetts.
> 
> The Air Force has been looking into a number of reports that pilots experienced hypoxia-like symptoms aboard F-22s since April 2008. Hypoxia is oxygen deficiency.
> 
> CNN Security Clearance - CNN.com Blogs
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> The F22.  The most expensive, complex and useless fighter in history.
Click to expand...


not according to this Ranking Republican:


----------



## usmcstinger

The F35 fighter jet is superior to the F22. Why bother with F22?


----------



## Indofred

Moonglow said:


> or we could give it to our enemies



Yes, Israel comes to mind.


----------



## waltky

Whistle-blower retaliation by the Air Force...

*Lawyer: Second pilot was pulled from F-22 after interview on safety issues*
_May 2, 2014  A second F-22 Raptor pilot who spoke publicly about safety issues with the fighter jet was barred from flying the plane not long after appearing on national television two years ago, his attorney said Thursday._


> The revelation came the same day that U.S. Sen. Mark Warner and an Illinois congressman pressed Defense Secretary Chuck Hagel to speed up what is now a two-year-long investigation into whether the Virginia Air National Guard pilots were wrongly punished for appearing on CBS's "60 Minutes" program in May 2012.  Maj. Jeremy Gordon and Capt. Joshua Wilson, both assigned to the Guard's 149th Fighter Squadron at Langley Air Force Base, described how the plane's defective oxygen system was endangering pilots, noting that many aviators were not willing to speak publicly for fear of reprisals.  The men were treated differently in the spring of 2012 and in the months that followed the broadcast.
> 
> Gordon, 38, a fighter jet combat veteran, now does not fly the F-22 but remains in the squadron, flying a T-38 trainer jet. Attorney Rick Morgan, who represents both pilots, said Thursday that it wasn't Gordon's decision in May or June 2012 to stop flying the F-22.  "Maj. Gordon indicated to his leadership that he wished to return to the F-22 and was advised that they were not prepared to return him to that airplane," Morgan said. Gordon did not face formal disciplinary action.  Gordon, who has declined to be interviewed, was considered to be among the more seasoned F-22 pilots in the squadron. A 1998 Air Force Academy graduate, he holds several commendations, including the Distinguished Flying Cross, stemming from his duties as an F-16 pilot in the Iraq War. He had been flying the F-22 since 2006 while a full-time aviator before switching to the Air National Guard in 2009.  The Air Force made at least one attempt last year to get him back into its premier plane. Gen. Mark Welsh III, the Air Force chief of staff, who, like Gordon, began his career as an F-16 pilot, telephoned Gordon in 2013 to ask whether he wanted to fly the F-22 again, according to a source familiar with the conversation. Gordon declined.
> 
> Meanwhile, Wilson has said he's fighting to get his career back. He also is a former F-16 pilot whose goal has been to eventually become a full-time F-22 aviator.  Wilson requested a Defense Department Inspector General investigation in early 2012, claiming he was the focus of punitive actions that included stopping a planned promotion and initiating a review of his flight status that prevents him from flying in the interim. He's still assigned to the squadron but hasn't flown an F-22 since early 2012.  Air National Guard leaders said they won't resolve his personnel issues until the investigation is complete.  Wilson, who has been grounded for two years, has seen his income plummet. His Air National Guard commander withdrew permission in 2012 to allow Wilson to work a full-time desk job at the Air Combat Command at Langley.  The loss of that job, as well as F-22 flight pay, meant Wilson's military paycheck dropped to about $10,000 a year from about $100,000, said U.S. Rep. Adam Kinzinger, an Illinois Republican and Air National Guard pilot who has been an advocate for the two aviators.
> 
> Kinzinger and Warner reiterated Thursday that Wilson has wrongly been retaliated against for pressing for fixes to a faulty oxygen system that was endangering pilots. In the past two years, the Air Force has spent millions installing a new backup system and other equipment meant to address the concern.  Warner said there's been no indication when the inspector general's inquiry might be completed but noted that usually, personnel-related investigations take months.  "Two years should be more than enough time," he said.  Cotton Puryear, a Virginia National Guard spokesman, said he could not comment on Gordon or actions pending against Wilson.  "Everything is hold until the IG investigation is complete - as long as it's done right," Puryear said. "We don't want it rushed."
> 
> http://www.stripes.com/news/us/lawy...-22-after-interview-on-safety-issues-1.281156


----------



## Navy1960

Let's see the F-22 was cancelled  because it's 133 Million dollar cost per aircraft was considered way to much for one aircraft.  So the DOD decides to come up with the brilliant plan to make a lower cost  "one size fits all" aircraft called the F-35 only problem is  it ended up costing  135 million per aircraft and now we get  "oh well" and if you are in the USMC and are getting the B version your paying 195 million for what can be argued as an aircraft that is so vanilla that it under performs in every envelope it was meant to perform in and in some cases  is outperformed by current generation aircraft.  While its a shame the USAF took it upon themselves to shelve the careers of the two Officers who might have saved a lot of lives rather than look at it as a positive, in the end  these men did a great service to the nation and the Air Force by fixing an issue  that was costing lives.


----------



## waltky

Mebbe the Pentagon has developed a jet beyond the capabilities of humans...

*Scientists Develop Quick Way for Pilots to Detect Hypoxia Symptoms*
_ Oct 31, 2015 - Researchers with the U.S. Air Force may have found a way to detect hypoxia in pilots in real-time during flights by measuring volatile organic compounds, or VOCs, in their breath, according to a new study._


> Hypoxia is a deficiency of oxygen reaching the tissues. A sudden loss of cabin pressure, speeding up the lack of oxygen flowing through the body, could result in a pilot losing consciousness before being able to take actions in the cockpit for both passengers and to keep the plane in the air.  Researchers at Wright-Patterson Air Force Base think an automatic system may be able to detect hypoxia based on pilot's breath, allowing either the pilot or systems on the plane to take action.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "Despite the myriad of advances in aerospace technology, many modern, high-performance aircraft still rely on the pilot to recognize the symptoms of hypoxia in order to initiate appropriate procedures in the event of a malfunction," said Dr. Claude Grigsby, a technical advisor in the Human Signatures Branch in the 711th Human Performance Wing, in a press release. "This research provides the basis for both the utility of exhaled breath monitoring to monitor for hypoxia as well as targets for future solid state senor development."  The researchers worked with eight pilots, simulating a "fairly standard" hypoxic event while in flight. The volunteer participants were exposed to five minutes of reduced oxygen levels to simulate higher altitudes, and then were given five minutes of oxygen "recovery," a typical in-flight response to the condition.
> 
> For each of the participants, VOC levels were measured before and after the simulated hypoxia and recovery, as well as every minute during the simulations. Although the results showed VOC levels drop after a hypoxic event, researchers are unsure how this works.  "We are working to better understand hypoxic episodes mechanistically to validate our findings and to improve our non-invasive chemical sensing platforms," said Dr. Sean Harshman, a research scientist in the 711th Human Performance Wing at Wright-Patterson Air Force Base. "Our future and ongoing studies seek to confirm the data presented in this manuscript, develop a flight worthy chemical sensor, and begin further mechanistic studies of respiratory hypoxia."  The study is published in the Journal of Breath Research.
> 
> Scientists Develop Quick Way for Pilots to Detect Hypoxia Symptoms | Military.com


----------



## eagle1462010

Lockheed Martin F-22 Raptor - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The F-22 is currently being upgraded with a backup oxygen system, software upgrades and oxygen sensors to address the frequent oxygen deprivation issues and normalize operations.[99] In 2013, the faulty flight vest valves were replaced and altitude restrictions lifted; distance restrictions will be lifted once a backup oxygen system is installed.[100] In April 2014 the USAF stated in Congressional testimony that installation of automatic backup oxygen systems on the F-22 fleet would be completed within twelve months.[101]

All F-22s To Have Backup Oxygen Systems Within 12 Months

Most of the current backup oxygen systems in the F-22 fleet require activation by the pilot, which might not be possible in the case of extreme hypoxia-like symptoms, such as a pilot blacking out.

Lt. Gen. Charles Davis, the military deputy in the office of assistant secretary of the Air Force for acquisition, said in testimony to the Senate Armed Services Committee that it has been more than 24 months since the last hypoxia-like incident occurred. And since the F-22 returned to flight in September 2011, it has averaged about 26,000 flying hours a year.


Installed a freaking oxygen valve that fails at higher altitudes.............probably tested at ground level..............Our expert Gov't at work..........


----------



## waltky

Automatic oxygen backups installed in F-22's...




*New Technology Aims to Track Hypoxia-Like Symptoms in Fighter Pilots*
_Jul 15, 2016 | A British company is teaming up with the Air Force to design a system that could assess and even treat hypoxia-like symptoms in pilots before they become a threat._


> Executives with Cobham Plc said the company is in the early stages of development with a system that could monitor a pilot's breathing, metabolic and physiological state and more by means of unobtrusive sensors mounted onto the pilot's breathing hose and mask.  Rob Schaeffer, product director for environmental systems at Cobham, told Military.com that the product development was in response to a request for proposals from the U.S. Air Force School of Aerospace Medicine at Wright-Patterson Air Force Base in Dayton, Ohio.  Cobham already builds the on-board oxygen generation systems used in F/A-18E/F Super Hornets and other fighter aircraft.  The request for proposals follows a troubling series of incidents in recent years. In 2011, the Air Force grounded its fleet of F-22 Raptors in order to investigate a pattern of pilot blackouts and other hypoxia-like symptoms. The force ultimately installed automatic oxygen backups in the aircraft.
> 
> More recently, Breaking Defense reported an uptick in "physiological events" indicative of oxygen deprivation symptoms for Navy F/A-18 Hornet pilots over the last five years.  Schaeffer emphasized that the root causes of these problems is not known, and hypoxia is only a hypothesis. The system now under development, he said, could isolate the root causes and generate data to help researchers determine when the problem occurs and how best to fix it.  While the current model of the system is platform-agnostic, linking in to a pilot's breathing apparatus, Cobham is also evaluating a platform-specific design that would be built into the aircraft.  "If you have a sensor like this, what we'd like to do is integrate this into the aircraft and make this an automated backup oxygen system," said Stuart Buckley, Cobham's senior director of business development and sales.
> 
> Cobham plans to deliver airworthy hardware to the Air Force by April 2017 for testing according to the service's flight protocols that would demonstrate the sensors' ability to collect pilot data and download it at the end of flight.  While there is no formal agreement with the Navy regarding the project, Schaeffer said the service is aware of it.  "We have participated in many briefings with [U.S. Naval Air Systems Command] and the Office of Naval Research, and there is a high degree of interest," he said.  The final solution could analyze pilot health in flight far beyond oxygen levels: Schaeffer said the company was looking at building in electrocardiogram capability and assessing factors like Gs pulled, climbing altitude, temperature, humidity and pressure to isolate causes of hypoxia-like incidents in order to solve the problem.  "If I can help the government find the root cause, I've got a better chance to solve the problem," Buckley said.
> 
> New Technology Aims to Track Hypoxia-Like Symptoms in Fighter Pilots | Military.com


----------



## waltky

F-18 and EA18G's affected too?...




*Cockpit Hypoxia 'Number One Safety Issue' for Naval Aviation*
_Aug 19, 2016 | The U.S. Navy has yet to solve a troubling pattern of hypoxia-like symptoms in the cockpit among pilots of F/A-18 Hornet variants and EA-18G Growler aircraft, and the head of naval aviation said this week that resolving the dangerous problem is his top safety priority._


> Vice Adm. Mike Shoemaker, the commander of Naval Air Forces, told an audience at the Center for Strategic and International Studies this week that Marine Corps and Navy aviation leaders were pushing forward with a multi-pronged approach that included better training for pilots and a close analysis of apparent problems with the onboard oxygen generation system.  "Where cabin pressurization has issues, we've adjusted the warnings we get in the cockpit and adjusted the emergency procedures for how we respond to various scenarios," Shoemaker said. "We've been out to the fleet to talk about how to test, how the maintainers work and maintain those systems."
> 
> Incidents of reported oxygen loss, cockpit depressurization and air contamination among Navy and Marine Corps pilots have steeply risen in recent years. Navy Times reported in May that 2015 had seen the highest number of these kind of reports in at least six years, with 103 reported Navy incidents and 12 reported Marine Corps incidents. Since 2009, the paper reported, there have been 424 hypoxia-related incidents reported by Navy pilots and 47 by Marine Corps pilots.  Shoemaker suggested that the bump in reporting could actually be a function of heightened awareness, rather that more incidents occurring.  "So guys are going back and saying, 'Look, there's nothing wrong with reporting this.' We need to make sure we understand all the failure modes. So I think we're doing a good job of that," he said.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> An F/A-18C Hornet pilot climbs into the cockpit of his aircraft in preparation for operations off the deck of the USS Enterprise.​
> In the fleet, he said, pilots in training now spend time in aircraft simulators in which oxygen levels are gradually degraded so they can learn to identify the symptoms associated with hypoxia. Navy leaders have also spoken with pilots to draw attention to the problem and encourage them to make reports, he said.  On the engineering side, NAVAIR personnel are working to better understand the onboard oxygen generation system and potential problems.  "There are some contaminants in the system that we're still struggling with a little bit, but the engineers are figuring out ways to filter and identify that," Shoemaker said.  Shoemaker said the Navy expected to introduce a new technology to the fleet soon that would "scrub" the air delivered to the cockpit and remove these kinds of contaminants. And to address cabin pressurization problems, he said, engineers have adjusted cockpit warnings and emergency response procedures to alert pilots to issues sooner and give them more time to respond.
> 
> In July, executives with Cobham Plc., the maker of the Super Hornet's onboard oxygen generation system, told Military.com the company is also developing a system with input from the Air Force and Navy that would monitor pilots' breathing and other physical indicators to alert them to potential cockpit oxygen issues sooner.  "We're putting a full court press on this," Shoemaker said of efforts to address the cockpit problems. "It is our number one safety issue. [But] with awareness across the fleet and the importance of just understanding emergency procedures and complying with those, I think it's manageable."
> 
> Cockpit Hypoxia 'Number One Safety Issue' for Naval Aviation | Military.com


----------



## waltky

Similar to F-22 problem...




*F-35s Grounded at Luke AFB After Pilots Report Hypoxia-Like Symptoms*
_   9 Jun 2017 | The Air Force has grounded all F-35 Joint Strike Fighters at Luke Air Force Base, Arizona, after pilots complained of hypoxia-related issues, officials said Friday._


> "The 56th Fighter Wing at Luke Air Force Base, Arizona, canceled local flying operations today for F-35A Lightning II aircraft due to a series of five incidents in which pilots have experienced hypoxia-like symptoms," Air Force spokesman Capt. Mark Graff said in an email.  A total of 48 aircraft and 49 pilots are affected by the temporary stand-down, according to Maj. Rebecca Heyse, a spokeswoman for the base.  "Flying operations are planned to resume Monday, June 12," she said in an email.  The incident is "limited to Luke" at this time, meaning other bases aren't affected by the order, Graff said.
> 
> Since May 2, five F-35A pilots have experienced "physiological incidents while flying," according to the statement from Heyse. In each case, the aircraft's backup oxygen system kicked in and the pilot followed the correct procedures to land safely, it stated.  "In order to synchronize operations and maintenance efforts toward safe flying operations, we have canceled local F-35A flying," Brig. Gen. Brook Leonard, 56th Fighter Wing commander, said in the statement. "The Air Force takes these physiological incidents seriously, and our focus is on the safety and well-being of our pilots. We are taking the necessary steps to find the root cause of these incidents."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Brig. Gen. Scott Pleus, the 56th Fighter Wing commander, lands the flagship F-35 Lightning ll at Luke Air Force Base, Ariz.​
> The Air Force on Friday contacted other F-35 squadrons and international partners operating the aircraft to educate pilots on the incident, according to the statement from Graff.  Graff didn't say whether B or C model variants, flown by the Navy and Marine Corps, have experienced similar problems.  The issue of military pilots suffering hypoxia-like symptoms -- shortness of breath, confusion, wheezing -- isn't limited to the F-35 fleet.  Pilots flying the F-22 Raptor fifth-generation stealth jet experienced hypoxia symptoms on various occasions between 2008 and 2012. One pilot died as a result, and one had a near-death scare, with dozens more pilots experiencing confusion and disorientation while flying, according to an ABC News investigation at the time.
> 
> Then-Pentagon spokesman George Little said investigators found the cause to be a faulty valve in the high-pressure vest worn by the pilots at extreme altitude, which was restricting their ability to breathe.  More recently, the Navy went so far as to equip the aircraft carrier USS George H. W. Bush with specialized equipment called a transportable recompression system, or hyperbaric chamber, amid a review of physiological episodes affecting pilots who flew the T-45 trainer and the F/A-18 Hornet.  Graff couldn't say whether the F-35 and T-45 incidents are somehow connected.
> 
> MORE


----------



## Daryl Hunt

And similar to the F-18 as well.  The fix on the F-22 was the addition of external bottles of Oxy.


----------



## Dot Com

whitehall said:


> During WW2 they had a full proof method for working out design flaws and taking care of fighters that were hard to fly. They gave them to the Marines. The Corsair was one.


more like "impossible to fly" as the pilot needs to breathe

What makes it worse, as Trump pointed- out, is the exorbitant cost of these planes


----------



## Manonthestreet

Dot Com said:


> whitehall said:
> 
> 
> 
> During WW2 they had a full proof method for working out design flaws and taking care of fighters that were hard to fly. They gave them to the Marines. The Corsair was one.
> 
> 
> 
> more like "impossible to fly" as the pilot needs to breathe
> 
> What makes it worse, as Trump pointed- out, is the exorbitant cost of these planes
Click to expand...

Trump has been harping on F-35......F-22 was stopped to sbaotouge our forces and substitute crappy overpriced f-35 whose repalcement is alrdy on the drawing board it is such a failure


----------



## Dot Com

Manonthestreet said:


> Dot Com said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> whitehall said:
> 
> 
> 
> During WW2 they had a full proof method for working out design flaws and taking care of fighters that were hard to fly. They gave them to the Marines. The Corsair was one.
> 
> 
> 
> more like "impossible to fly" as the pilot needs to breathe
> 
> What makes it worse, as Trump pointed- out, is the exorbitant cost of these planes
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Trump has been harping on F-35......F-22 was stopped to sbaotouge our forces and substitute crappy overpriced f-35 whose repalcement is alrdy on the drawing board it is such a failure
Click to expand...


You're right about the Trump F35 issue but doesn't mean the F22 is much better. Gates and McCain were right to point it out as Pork years ago. BTW- you serve? When? Where? 

Just funnin'


----------



## Manonthestreet

Dot Com said:


> Manonthestreet said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dot Com said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> whitehall said:
> 
> 
> 
> During WW2 they had a full proof method for working out design flaws and taking care of fighters that were hard to fly. They gave them to the Marines. The Corsair was one.
> 
> 
> 
> more like "impossible to fly" as the pilot needs to breathe
> 
> What makes it worse, as Trump pointed- out, is the exorbitant cost of these planes
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Trump has been harping on F-35......F-22 was stopped to sbaotouge our forces and substitute crappy overpriced f-35 whose repalcement is alrdy on the drawing board it is such a failure
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You're right about the Trump F35 issue but doesn't mean the F22 is much better. Gates and McCain were right to point it out as Pork years ago. BTW- you serve? When? Where?
> 
> Just funnin'
Click to expand...



F-22 flies higher faster futher and outmanuevers F-35 like the sled it is and bests the plane it replaces F-15 by wide margin


----------



## Dot Com

Manonthestreet said:


> Dot Com said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Manonthestreet said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dot Com said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> whitehall said:
> 
> 
> 
> During WW2 they had a full proof method for working out design flaws and taking care of fighters that were hard to fly. They gave them to the Marines. The Corsair was one.
> 
> 
> 
> more like "impossible to fly" as the pilot needs to breathe
> 
> What makes it worse, as Trump pointed- out, is the exorbitant cost of these planes
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Trump has been harping on F-35......F-22 was stopped to sbaotouge our forces and substitute crappy overpriced f-35 whose repalcement is alrdy on the drawing board it is such a failure
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You're right about the Trump F35 issue but doesn't mean the F22 is much better. Gates and McCain were right to point it out as Pork years ago. BTW- you serve? When? Where?
> 
> Just funnin'
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> F-22 flies higher faster futher and outmanuevers F-35 like the sled it is and bests the plane it replaces F-15 by wide margin
Click to expand...

how much they cost TO THE TAXPAYER EACH? That was a rhetorical question.


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## Daryl Hunt

Manonthestreet said:


> Dot Com said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> whitehall said:
> 
> 
> 
> During WW2 they had a full proof method for working out design flaws and taking care of fighters that were hard to fly. They gave them to the Marines. The Corsair was one.
> 
> 
> 
> more like "impossible to fly" as the pilot needs to breathe
> 
> What makes it worse, as Trump pointed- out, is the exorbitant cost of these planes
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Trump has been harping on F-35......F-22 was stopped to sbaotouge our forces and substitute crappy overpriced f-35 whose repalcement is alrdy on the drawing board it is such a failure
Click to expand...


The F-22 was stopped be because we only have X number dollars.  It was a good choice considering the F-22 cannot be matched by any other Fighter in performance.  The Upgrades to the F-15C and E keeps the newer F-15s able to take on anything except the F-22.  This includes the SU-35.  

Meanwhile, we need a all around fighter.  The F-18 really can't do the job and the F-16 can't either in a contested area.  Hence the need of the F-35.  

Just remember, the F-22 AND the F-18 had the same problem.  It turned out it was  a faulty valve that has since been upgraded and replaced.  The F-22 spends more of it's like at 50K or better so they also added an external breathing Oxy tank in case the main fails.  It's just the F-35s turn to get the new stuff.  At one time, both the F-22 AND the F-18 was grounded fleet wide until the problem was taken care of.

No big thing.  Just teething problems.  And can happen to even  the older birds.  Gremlins are real.


----------



## waltky

Granny says dey need to fix dat a-fore somebody conks out inna cockpit...




* Air Force: No Clear Cause for F-35A Hypoxia-Related Problem*
_16 Jun 2017 | The revelation comes one week after the service grounded all 55 F-35A Lightning IIs at Luke Air Force Base._


> The Air Force still hasn't determined what is causing pilots to experience oxygen deprivation symptoms at Luke Air Force Base, an official said Friday.  The revelation comes one week after the service grounded all 55 F-35A Lightning IIs at the Arizona base and other previously undisclosed incidents have come to light.  "We learned a lot from each other" over the past week, Brig. Gen. Brook Leonard, 56th Fighter Wing commander, told reporters during a call Friday, referencing ongoing maintenance and strategic initiatives the base has been working on since operations halted June 9.  But "we did not find a specific cause that we could put our finger on and just fix and then all of a sudden return to flying with safe operations," said Leonard, an F-35 instructor pilot and former F-16 Fighting Falcon pilot.
> 
> The 56th Fighter Wing halted operations for all F-35As last week after pilots complained of hypoxia-related issues.  But the base hopes it can return its F-35s to flight by Tuesday, Leonard said. Engineers, maintainers and aeromedical specialists, including officials from the aircraft's manufacturer, Lockheed Martin, have been on the case, he said.  Without giving specifics, Leonard said, "We did eliminate a lot of areas" of what the causes could be regarding the maintenance or aircrew management side of operations that could cause physiological incidents.  "The solution is going to be a very multi-layered human and machine solution," he said. "We're progressing toward that."  On Thursday, Air Force officials disclosed to Military.com that there have been 15 reported F-35A in-flight and ground physiological events since April 2, 2011, including the most recent events at Luke.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Airman 1st Class Nkosi Jones 61st Aircraft Maintenance Unit weapons Airman, secures a panel while Staff Sgt. Martin De La Vara, 61st AMU crew chief, prepares to pull the chocks​
> Leonard on Friday added that within that same timeframe, 23 cases have occurred across the Joint Strike Fighter fleet -- 15 Air Force models, three Marine Corps B models and five Navy C models. He said the other services' incidents occurred "some years back."  In the 23 cases, 13 -- across all three models -- were discovered to have a root cause, the commander said.  A defense official told Military.com on Friday those 13 were plagued by "pressure issues, contaminated oxygen and ground events." Ground events, for example, could be attributed to "lots of jets on a ramp, of which exhaust fumes may have played a role," the official said.  The remaining 10 remain unexplained. "We may never arrive at a determination for some of these," the official said.  As for recent events, which are limited to Luke, "Some are specific to the person," the defense official said. "How they were flying, at what altitude they were flying," among other variables could play a role, the official said.
> 
> Leonard said the hypoxia-like symptoms at Luke were linked to pilots flying at a particular altitude, but would not disclose specifics.  The general said the Air Force hasn't ruled out that the issue could be linked to the On-Board Oxygen Generating System, known as OBOGS.  "We do think the OBOGS system is not as robust as it can be; however, according to all our testing, it meets the minimum standard," he said.  There are plans to modify the system, made by Honeywell, Leonard said, but he would not give details. "While that could be weakness in the OBOGS system … we did not find that a causal across the five instances," he said.  Of the recent incidents, four jets belong to the U.S. Air Force and one to an international partner, Leonard said. Australia, Norway and Italy are currently training alongside the service at the base.
> 
> *Avoiding Flight Envelopes*


----------



## Daryl Hunt

waltky said:


> Granny says dey need to fix dat a-fore somebody conks out inna cockpit...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> * Air Force: No Clear Cause for F-35A Hypoxia-Related Problem*
> _16 Jun 2017 | The revelation comes one week after the service grounded all 55 F-35A Lightning IIs at Luke Air Force Base._
> 
> 
> 
> The Air Force still hasn't determined what is causing pilots to experience oxygen deprivation symptoms at Luke Air Force Base, an official said Friday.  The revelation comes one week after the service grounded all 55 F-35A Lightning IIs at the Arizona base and other previously undisclosed incidents have come to light.  "We learned a lot from each other" over the past week, Brig. Gen. Brook Leonard, 56th Fighter Wing commander, told reporters during a call Friday, referencing ongoing maintenance and strategic initiatives the base has been working on since operations halted June 9.  But "we did not find a specific cause that we could put our finger on and just fix and then all of a sudden return to flying with safe operations," said Leonard, an F-35 instructor pilot and former F-16 Fighting Falcon pilot.
> 
> The 56th Fighter Wing halted operations for all F-35As last week after pilots complained of hypoxia-related issues.  But the base hopes it can return its F-35s to flight by Tuesday, Leonard said. Engineers, maintainers and aeromedical specialists, including officials from the aircraft's manufacturer, Lockheed Martin, have been on the case, he said.  Without giving specifics, Leonard said, "We did eliminate a lot of areas" of what the causes could be regarding the maintenance or aircrew management side of operations that could cause physiological incidents.  "The solution is going to be a very multi-layered human and machine solution," he said. "We're progressing toward that."  On Thursday, Air Force officials disclosed to Military.com that there have been 15 reported F-35A in-flight and ground physiological events since April 2, 2011, including the most recent events at Luke.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Airman 1st Class Nkosi Jones 61st Aircraft Maintenance Unit weapons Airman, secures a panel while Staff Sgt. Martin De La Vara, 61st AMU crew chief, prepares to pull the chocks​
> Leonard on Friday added that within that same timeframe, 23 cases have occurred across the Joint Strike Fighter fleet -- 15 Air Force models, three Marine Corps B models and five Navy C models. He said the other services' incidents occurred "some years back."  In the 23 cases, 13 -- across all three models -- were discovered to have a root cause, the commander said.  A defense official told Military.com on Friday those 13 were plagued by "pressure issues, contaminated oxygen and ground events." Ground events, for example, could be attributed to "lots of jets on a ramp, of which exhaust fumes may have played a role," the official said.  The remaining 10 remain unexplained. "We may never arrive at a determination for some of these," the official said.  As for recent events, which are limited to Luke, "Some are specific to the person," the defense official said. "How they were flying, at what altitude they were flying," among other variables could play a role, the official said.
> 
> Leonard said the hypoxia-like symptoms at Luke were linked to pilots flying at a particular altitude, but would not disclose specifics.  The general said the Air Force hasn't ruled out that the issue could be linked to the On-Board Oxygen Generating System, known as OBOGS.  "We do think the OBOGS system is not as robust as it can be; however, according to all our testing, it meets the minimum standard," he said.  There are plans to modify the system, made by Honeywell, Leonard said, but he would not give details. "While that could be weakness in the OBOGS system … we did not find that a causal across the five instances," he said.  Of the recent incidents, four jets belong to the U.S. Air Force and one to an international partner, Leonard said. Australia, Norway and Italy are currently training alongside the service at the base.
> 
> *Avoiding Flight Envelopes*
Click to expand...


Agreed.  They may do a temp fix in the meantime like they did with the F-22 and put a backup system with external tanks.  The F-35A was never designed to fly at 50k feet nor do they want it there.  If they keep it below 30K it may be okay.  But if it needs to zoom to 50K it may need that backup system.  It's a temp fix but it works and gets the F-35A back into the air while they iron out a real fix.


----------



## Daryl Hunt

Dot Com said:


> Manonthestreet said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dot Com said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Manonthestreet said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dot Com said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> whitehall said:
> 
> 
> 
> During WW2 they had a full proof method for working out design flaws and taking care of fighters that were hard to fly. They gave them to the Marines. The Corsair was one.
> 
> 
> 
> more like "impossible to fly" as the pilot needs to breathe
> 
> What makes it worse, as Trump pointed- out, is the exorbitant cost of these planes
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Trump has been harping on F-35......F-22 was stopped to sbaotouge our forces and substitute crappy overpriced f-35 whose repalcement is alrdy on the drawing board it is such a failure
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You're right about the Trump F35 issue but doesn't mean the F22 is much better. Gates and McCain were right to point it out as Pork years ago. BTW- you serve? When? Where?
> 
> Just funnin'
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> F-22 flies higher faster futher and outmanuevers F-35 like the sled it is and bests the plane it replaces F-15 by wide margin
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> how much they cost TO THE TAXPAYER EACH? That was a rhetorical question.
Click to expand...


The last run on the F-22 was right around 135 mil a copy.  The more you make the cheaper it is.  Unfortunately, the plant that it was made in is now making other things.  I don't foresee them cranking up another run on the F-22 since it's replacement is on the drafting table.


----------



## Daryl Hunt

Manonthestreet said:


> Dot Com said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Manonthestreet said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dot Com said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> whitehall said:
> 
> 
> 
> During WW2 they had a full proof method for working out design flaws and taking care of fighters that were hard to fly. They gave them to the Marines. The Corsair was one.
> 
> 
> 
> more like "impossible to fly" as the pilot needs to breathe
> 
> What makes it worse, as Trump pointed- out, is the exorbitant cost of these planes
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Trump has been harping on F-35......F-22 was stopped to sbaotouge our forces and substitute crappy overpriced f-35 whose repalcement is alrdy on the drawing board it is such a failure
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You're right about the Trump F35 issue but doesn't mean the F22 is much better. Gates and McCain were right to point it out as Pork years ago. BTW- you serve? When? Where?
> 
> Just funnin'
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> F-22 flies higher faster futher and outmanuevers F-35 like the sled it is and bests the plane it replaces F-15 by wide margin
Click to expand...


That's good to hear.  I imagine the Russians are worried on the F-22 considering the latest mods on the F-15 allows it to do better than head to head with the Russian SU-35.  And the F-35A makes dog meat out of the F-15C/D/E.  So, the F-35A isn't quite up to the F-22's standard.  But, then again, what is?  Nothing short of a Librician Death Ray.

BTW, in 1976, the same was being said about the F-15.  Even today, the F-15SX and E are over 110 mil a copy.  Politics shut down the F-22 Assembly line.  Aren't you happy that the powers that be didn't listen when the same things were being said about the F-15?


----------



## waltky

Solution to F-22 hypoxia problem?...





*Air Force Tests New System to Monitor for Hypoxia Problems*
_September 18, 2017 — The Air Force is testing a breathing and cockpit environment monitoring system developed by Cobham to provide data to address the continuing problem of pilots developing hypoxia-like symptoms._


> The military “doesn’t know what’s at the root of the problem, and Cobham doesn’t either. Nobody does,” said Rob Schaeffer, business management developer for Cobham Mission Systems Division. But he said the Cobham system could help pinpoint the solution.  At the Air Force Association’s Air, Space and Cyber Conference on Monday, Schaeffer said the company had delivered eight of its inhalation monitors in June to the U.S. Air Force School of Aerospace Medicine (USAFSAM) for testing.  Another eight units of the exhalation monitors will be delivered to USAFSAM later this month. Schaeffer said the Navy has also shown interest in testing the systems.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The inhalation sensor block is attached to a chest-mounted breathing regulator or integrated terminal block. The exhalation sensor can sit inside a vest pocket so as not to impede the pilot's field of regard.​
> The latest from the U.K. defense company comes amid news that the Air Force plans to modify flight equipment for the F-35 such as the pilot vest and breathing mask, according to a report from Aviation Week.  The Air Force has reduced the flight vest weight by 10 pounds to relieve chest pressure, and has moved to replace faulty exhalation valves found in the masks after testing, officials told AvWeek at the conference.  Cobham’s system has inhalation and exhalation monitors that fit in a flight vest pocket. The inhalation monitor is designed to measure oxygen pressure, temperature, pressure within the breathing hose, humidity and other factors. The exhalation monitor checks oxygen pressure, expired carbon dioxide, and pressure within the mask, among other variables.
> 
> In June, the Air Force grounded some of its F-35A Joint Strike Fighters following incidents in which pilots reported hypoxia-like symptoms while flying.  The groundings renewed attention on hypoxia, a physical condition caused by oxygen deficiency that may result in temporary cognitive and physiological impairment and possible loss of consciousness.  In recent years, hypoxia has also affected pilots of F-22 Raptor, F/A-18 Hornet and T-45 Goshawk aircraft.  The problem gained national attention in 2010 after an F-22 crashed and the pilot was killed following a suspected loss of oxygen.
> 
> Air Force Tests New System to Monitor for Hypoxia Problems - Defensetech


----------



## waltky

Hypoxia starting to affect A-10's...




*A-10 Pilots Report Hypoxia-Like Incidents at Davis-Monthan AFB*
_11 Jan 2018 - More than two dozen A-10 Thunderbolt II attack aircraft at Davis-Monthan Air Force Base, Arizona, didn't fly in late November after two pilots reported they experienced hypoxia-like symptoms while flying._


> In both incidents, which occurred the week of Nov. 27, "the aircraft's backup oxygen supply system operated as designed and the pilots followed the correct procedures to safely land the aircraft," said Capt. Joshua Benedetti, spokesman for the 355th Fighter Wing.  Benedetti said one of the aircraft was equipped with the Onboard Oxygen Generation System, commonly known as OBOGS, while the other was equipped with the Liquid Oxygen System, or LOX.  "An additional pilot reported a ground incident associated with the A-10's oxygen system that same week," he said.  The Air Force "quickly determined the issue with the LOX-equipped aircraft was related to a malfunction with the cabin pressure and oxygen regulator. Those issues were fixed immediately," Benedetti said.
> 
> To properly inspect the OBOGS-equipped aircraft -- 28 of the total 85 A-10s on base -- the service grounded those jets for about a week, he said.  Despite those efforts, the service is still seeking answers to figure out how the incidents occurred.  "At this point, we have not determined a root cause," Benedetti said.  "During the course of the investigation, we have identified how we could better maintain the system by cleaning the water separator drain and associated piping with pressurized air, which may help prevent corrosion found in some of the piping. Additionally, we made the pilot preflight OBOGS procedure more prescriptive," he said.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A U.S. Air Force A-10 Thunderbolt II sits beneath a sunshade at Davis-Monthan Air Force Base, Ariz.​
> While the 28 aircraft stood down operations, missions on base continued with the remaining 57 LOX-equipped aircraft.  "We resumed flying with all LOX and OBOGS aircraft less than a week later, and there have been no incidents since," Benedetti said.  He added, "The Air Force takes these physiological incidents seriously, and our focus is on the safety and well-being of our pilots."  Officials at Davis-Monthan said they will continue to share information on the OBOGS aircraft with other A-10 units so proper precautions may be taken.
> 
> In June, the 56th Fighter Wing at Luke Air Force Base, Arizona, halted operations for all F-35As there after pilots complained of hypoxia-related issues.  In succeeding days, the Air Force established initiatives to keep pilots safe and to avoid experiencing symptoms -- shortness of breath, confusion, wheezing -- in flight.  Those initiatives include a backup oxygen system, wearable technology to monitor pilots' oxygen levels, and a restriction on how high pilots could take the craft.  The F-35s at Luke resumed flight that same month. Currently a total of 61 F-35As are assigned to Luke.  A root cause for those incidents has not been found.
> 
> A-10 Pilots Report Hypoxia-Like Incidents at Davis-Monthan AFB


----------



## waltky

Hypoxia problem shows up in  prop trainer...
*



*
*T-6 Texan Trainers Grounded Again After Hypoxia Incidents*
_1 Feb 2018 - The Air Force has ordered an indefinite operational pause for all T-6 Texan II trainer aircraft after reports of more hypoxia-related incidents._


> The 19th Air Force, under Air Education and Training Command, issued a guidance Wednesday to stand down operations after a cluster of unexplained physiological events occurred at Columbus Air Force Base, Mississippi; Vance Air Force Base, Oklahoma; and Sheppard Air Force Base, Texas, within the last week, officials said in a release.  The pause began Feb. 1 to enable the service to examine "the root causes of the incidents, educate and listen to aircrew, develop and deliver mitigation solutions," the release said.  "The safety of our instructors and student pilots is paramount and has been our priority and focus," said Maj. Gen. Patrick Doherty, 19th Air Force commander.  "We're acting swiftly, making temporary, but necessary, changes to everyone's training, general awareness, checklist procedures, and [may] possibly modify aircrew flying equipment to mitigate risk to the aircrew while we tackle this issue head-on to safeguard everyone flying T-6s," Doherty said in the release.
> 
> The news broke after the Facebook group, Air Force Amn/nco/snco -- which is popular within the Air Force but isn't officially run by the service -- obtained an email from Doherty, at first stating that solo flights for instructor and student pilots had been suspended "until further notice" over the growing concerns of unexplained physiological events.  The 19th Air Force is responsible for training more than 30,000 U.S. and allied students annually in various specialties, including pilot training.  According to the Air Force, instructor pilot training in the T-6A began at Randolph Air Force Base, Texas, in 2000, while Joint Primary Pilot Training, or JPPT, began in October 2001 at Moody Air Force Base, Georgia.  JPPT is currently held at Columbus AFB; Vance AFB; and Laughlin and Sheppard Air Force Bases in Texas, according to the service's T-6 factsheet.  This is just the latest in a series of hypoxia-related incidents for the Air Force.  The T-6A fleet at Vance's 71st Flying Training Wing was grounded in November after a handful of pilots observed hypoxia-like symptoms -- shortness of breath, confusion, wheezing -- in flight.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The T-6A Texan II is a single-engine, two-seat primary trainer designed to train Joint Primary Pilot Training, or JPPT, students in basic flying skills common to U.S. Air Force and Navy pilots.​
> More than 100 of the trainers were put on operational pause between Nov. 15 and Dec. 5. However, officials could not pinpoint the origin of the incidents.  "No specific root cause for the physiological events was identified during two weeks of investigation by aviation, medical, functional and industry experts," according to an Air Force release at the time. "However, specific concerns were eliminated as possible causes, including maintenance and aircrew flight equipment procedures."  In January, the service announced it had created a new investigative team to research and record ongoing hypoxia episodes in hopes of minimizing future incidents.  Brig. Gen. Bobbi Jo Doorenbos, currently special assistant to the director of the Air National Guard, was named to head the "Unexplained Physiologic Events Integration Team."  The AETC on Wednesday said officials are relying on the team to pinpoint the problem.  "... Doorenbos is leading the team and will work closely with 19th Air Force, AETC, and other [major commands] to examine the causes of these incidents and ensure industry and enterprise-wide solutions are given high priority to find root causes and deliver solutions across all weapon systems," it said in a statement.
> 
> Aside from the T-6, more than two dozen A-10 Thunderbolt II attack aircraft at Davis-Monthan Air Force Base, Arizona, didn't fly in late November after two pilots reported they experienced hypoxia symptoms.  In June, the 56th Fighter Wing at Luke Air Force Base, Arizona, halted operations for all F-35As there after pilots complained of hypoxia-related issues. In succeeding days, the Air Force established initiatives to keep pilots safe and to avoid experiencing symptoms in flight, and the F-35s were back in the air that same month.  A root cause for all these incidents has not been determined.  While physiological events aren't common, the service has said it has seen an increase in pilots reporting the hazardous events. "The probability that a pilot will experience a physiological event is less than 1 percent per year," Doorenbos said last month.  "Still, we are aggressively addressing these events and communicating with aircrew so they remain confident in their aircraft and weapon systems," she said.
> 
> T-6 Texan Trainers Grounded Again After Hypoxia Incidents


----------



## Inmar

The production of F22 is discontinued and will not be more resurrected, since the plane has not lived up to expectations and is too expensive. America has no more aircraft of the 5th generation.


----------



## Daryl Hunt

Inmar said:


> The production of F22 is discontinued and will not be more resurrected, since the plane has not lived up to expectations and is too expensive. America has no more aircraft of the 5th generation.



Actually, it has lived up to what is expected.  It was expected to make Russian and China stay very worried and spend oodles of money and resources to try and catch up.  It's still the best of the best for Air to Air.  But the Best won't stay in that position for long.  

One of the reasons it was cancelled was due to money.  It's expensive.  Here are other reasons.

With them learning how to do construction of a Stealth Fighter like the F-35, there were leaps in methods of construction that can't really be used on the F-22.  The F-22 is a purpose built bird with no real room for expansion.  The F-35 had space and capability extra room designed in.  It won't affect the F-35 but it will the followon fighter to replace the F-22.  

The technology is from the 1990s on the F-22.  Okay, if it were Russian it would cutting edge today.  But since Russia is about 20 years behind, it's no wonder that in the next 5 years, the Russians might catch up.  This will mean that they have to have a complete new design (sorry, the SU-57 is an older design and 5th gen in name only.  The F-15E fairs as good overall as the SU-57) from the ground up.  You can add another 10 years or so to the Russian Time Frame just to reach parity.  Russia will get parity somewhere around 2030.  Meanwhile, the followon fighter for the F-22 comes out no later than 2035 and the Russians are once again 20 years behind.  And don't tell me that they will miraculously introduce a 6th Gen.  You have to learn how to build a 5th gen first.  

One of the things that the 6th gen fighter will borrow from the F-35 is how it's sensors work.  On the F-35, all it's leading, trailing and side edges have sensors built in.  The 6th gen just takes that a step further and the whole AC is a sensor.  You can't do that with the F-22.  Just like Russia, the US needs to start with a clean design and go from there.  The good news is, the 6th gen US Fighter will cost less than if we tried to adapt the F-22 and kept it in production since it is borrowing from both the F-22 and F-35 and expanding on it.

Be happy that the F-22 has never had to do the job it was built for.  It's one of the reasons that it never happened.


----------



## Admiral Rockwell Tory

usmcstinger said:


> The F35 fighter jet is superior to the F22. Why bother with F22?



How do you figure that?


----------



## Daryl Hunt

Admiral Rockwell Tory said:


> usmcstinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> The F35 fighter jet is superior to the F22. Why bother with F22?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How do you figure that?
Click to expand...


I think it all depends on the job.  In Air to Air, the F-22 is supreme right now.  But when you start going for contested ground attack then the F-35 has the nod for that.  Each one is tailored to do one thing exceptional but can also do the others job just not as well as the other.  

The detractors ding the F-35 because it can't do it all.  Especially as well as air interdictor like the F-22.  But the same can be said for the F-22 for contested ground attack.  Only if you absolutely have to use either for the job that they can do but not as well as the other may happen but it's not suggested nor wanted.  

The F-22 will be working with the F-15 for air to air.  The lack of external missiles really isn't a factor since the F-15 is the missile truck and the F-22 can take over any one of those.  Just like the F-16 becomes the bomb truck for the F-35.  They are practicing that now and it works.  

In real life, it's not just one on one.  It's a huge number against a huge number.  Will there be losses of F-22s and F-35s?   Yes, nothing comes free.  But how many SU-35s, SU-30s and SU-27 along with radar sites will be lost by the other side?


----------



## Selivan

I like the American F-22 ...
He is very beautiful, like a girl ...
It remains only to connect his brains and put on a Russian fur coat, so that these "brains" do not freeze in the Arctic regions ...
Then, the Russians will let him fly ...
---------------------------------------------------------------
Otherwise, the "electronics" will freeze the back ...
Russian - good, so take care of your health


----------



## Inmar

Daryl Hunt said:


> Inmar said:
> 
> 
> 
> The production of F22 is discontinued and will not be more resurrected, since the plane has not lived up to expectations and is too expensive. America has no more aircraft of the 5th generation.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Actually, it has lived up to what is expected.  It was expected to make Russian and China stay very worried and spend oodles of money and resources to try and catch up.  It's still the best of the best for Air to Air.  But the Best won't stay in that position for long.
> 
> One of the reasons it was cancelled was due to money.  It's expensive.  Here are other reasons.
> 
> With them learning how to do construction of a Stealth Fighter like the F-35, there were leaps in methods of construction that can't really be used on the F-22.  The F-22 is a purpose built bird with no real room for expansion.  The F-35 had space and capability extra room designed in.  It won't affect the F-35 but it will the followon fighter to replace the F-22.
> 
> The technology is from the 1990s on the F-22.  Okay, if it were Russian it would cutting edge today.  But since Russia is about 20 years behind, it's no wonder that in the next 5 years, the Russians might catch up.  This will mean that they have to have a complete new design (sorry, the SU-57 is an older design and 5th gen in name only.  The F-15E fairs as good overall as the SU-57) from the ground up.  You can add another 10 years or so to the Russian Time Frame just to reach parity.  Russia will get parity somewhere around 2030.  Meanwhile, the followon fighter for the F-22 comes out no later than 2035 and the Russians are once again 20 years behind.  And don't tell me that they will miraculously introduce a 6th Gen.  You have to learn how to build a 5th gen first.
> 
> One of the things that the 6th gen fighter will borrow from the F-35 is how it's sensors work.  On the F-35, all it's leading, trailing and side edges have sensors built in.  The 6th gen just takes that a step further and the whole AC is a sensor.  You can't do that with the F-22.  Just like Russia, the US needs to start with a clean design and go from there.  The good news is, the 6th gen US Fighter will cost less than if we tried to adapt the F-22 and kept it in production since it is borrowing from both the F-22 and F-35 and expanding on it.
> 
> Be happy that the F-22 has never had to do the job it was built for.  It's one of the reasons that it never happened.
Click to expand...

When you prove American thought, then you must give references to the publication of the mass media enemy. The rest is empty chatter.  note We never show Russian references about the disgrace of the American army. We show only your materials.


----------



## Daryl Hunt

Inmar said:


> Daryl Hunt said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Inmar said:
> 
> 
> 
> The production of F22 is discontinued and will not be more resurrected, since the plane has not lived up to expectations and is too expensive. America has no more aircraft of the 5th generation.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Actually, it has lived up to what is expected.  It was expected to make Russian and China stay very worried and spend oodles of money and resources to try and catch up.  It's still the best of the best for Air to Air.  But the Best won't stay in that position for long.
> 
> One of the reasons it was cancelled was due to money.  It's expensive.  Here are other reasons.
> 
> With them learning how to do construction of a Stealth Fighter like the F-35, there were leaps in methods of construction that can't really be used on the F-22.  The F-22 is a purpose built bird with no real room for expansion.  The F-35 had space and capability extra room designed in.  It won't affect the F-35 but it will the followon fighter to replace the F-22.
> 
> The technology is from the 1990s on the F-22.  Okay, if it were Russian it would cutting edge today.  But since Russia is about 20 years behind, it's no wonder that in the next 5 years, the Russians might catch up.  This will mean that they have to have a complete new design (sorry, the SU-57 is an older design and 5th gen in name only.  The F-15E fairs as good overall as the SU-57) from the ground up.  You can add another 10 years or so to the Russian Time Frame just to reach parity.  Russia will get parity somewhere around 2030.  Meanwhile, the followon fighter for the F-22 comes out no later than 2035 and the Russians are once again 20 years behind.  And don't tell me that they will miraculously introduce a 6th Gen.  You have to learn how to build a 5th gen first.
> 
> One of the things that the 6th gen fighter will borrow from the F-35 is how it's sensors work.  On the F-35, all it's leading, trailing and side edges have sensors built in.  The 6th gen just takes that a step further and the whole AC is a sensor.  You can't do that with the F-22.  Just like Russia, the US needs to start with a clean design and go from there.  The good news is, the 6th gen US Fighter will cost less than if we tried to adapt the F-22 and kept it in production since it is borrowing from both the F-22 and F-35 and expanding on it.
> 
> Be happy that the F-22 has never had to do the job it was built for.  It's one of the reasons that it never happened.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> When you prove American thought, then you must give references to the publication of the mass media enemy. The rest is empty chatter.  note We never show Russian references about the disgrace of the American army. We show only your materials.
Click to expand...


I also give reference to over 20 years in USAF.  And all you really see in action is the small units of the US Army and Marines.  The last time the 82nd was used they were way too rough for Afghanistan.  They had to be pulled.  You see, the normal Army is there to break things, blow things up and kill a lot of people fast.  And they are very good at it.  But the only way they can be used is a large scale war.  The definately aren't Policemen.  So they use small scale specially trained units.


----------



## Selivan

Daryl Hunt said:


> I also give reference to over 20 years in USAF. And all you really see in action is the small units of the US Army and Marines. The last time the 82nd was used they were way too rough for Afghanistan. They had to be pulled. You see, the normal Army is there to break things, blow things up and kill a lot of people fast. And they are very good at it. But the only way they can be used is a large scale war. The definately aren't Policemen. So they use small scale specially trained units.


it is not interesting.
You were told that you should give references to the Russian media, in which they say that your fighter really exists ...
-------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------
If the Russians will prove to you that they have the best fighter, they will only give American references


----------



## Daryl Hunt

Selivan said:


> Daryl Hunt said:
> 
> 
> 
> I also give reference to over 20 years in USAF. And all you really see in action is the small units of the US Army and Marines. The last time the 82nd was used they were way too rough for Afghanistan. They had to be pulled. You see, the normal Army is there to break things, blow things up and kill a lot of people fast. And they are very good at it. But the only way they can be used is a large scale war. The definately aren't Policemen. So they use small scale specially trained units.
> 
> 
> 
> it is not interesting.
> You were told that you should give references to the Russian media, in which they say that your fighter really exists ...
> -------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------
> If the Russians will prove to you that they have the best fighter, they will only give American references
Click to expand...


Yah, right.  The Russian Media is controlled by the State and NO state will ever admit that the other side has the better anything.  You seem to sell us very short.  We understand Nationalism at a degree at least equal to a Russian.  But our Media is not state controlled otherwise it would be a lot less messy over here.


----------



## Inmar

Daryl Hunt said:


> the Russian Media is controlled by the Statе.....



And the Russians do not have access to the Internet.


----------



## Selivan

Daryl Hunt said:


> Yah, right.  The Russian Media is controlled by the State and NO state will ever admit that the other side has the better anything.  You seem to sell us very short.  We understand Nationalism at a degree at least equal to a Russian.  But our Media is not state controlled otherwise it would be a lot less messy over here.






In the Russian media, you can say whatever you want.
To scold the government, Putin, to demand the collapse of Russia, to ask for sanctions against Russia.
It can be done by any politician and even by a presidential candidate.
Not only on the Internet, but also on radio and central television channels.

Even more:
Opposition media, which say the biggest shit, are sponsored by the Government. 
like this Эхо Москвы - новости, радио, политика, экономика, особое мнение
People listen to what they say and will never vote for them. It's good...

I'll tell you a secret:
- The USSR forbade such a mass media
- Russia, on the contrary, supports. This is a good strategic move, since people will never support them.
Look at this forum - there is such a character here. The more he craps, the better 

Other opposition media outlets are sponsored from America by "black cash"

================================================
*There is nothing like this in America, because you do not have democracy and freedom.*
You just tell the tales that monopolies allow you.
There is no opposition in America.
Sponsorship of the American media and political parties from abroad is prohibited.
If any of your politicians say on television a phrase meaning "I do not like America," then he will end his career and be sent to ignore. Maybe then the CIA will find compromising evidence against him and he will be put in jail for some other crime ...
================================================

Why can I say this?
1. I lived in America and live in Russia
2. I speak Russian and English and can read any press
3. I can compare sources of information

Why can not you argue?
1. You have never been to Russia
2. You do not speak Russian and can only read the American press
3. You can not compare sources of information
Therefore, you have wrong beliefs.


----------



## Daryl Hunt

Selivan said:


> Daryl Hunt said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yah, right.  The Russian Media is controlled by the State and NO state will ever admit that the other side has the better anything.  You seem to sell us very short.  We understand Nationalism at a degree at least equal to a Russian.  But our Media is not state controlled otherwise it would be a lot less messy over here.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In the Russian media, you can say whatever you want.
> To scold the government, Putin, to demand the collapse of Russia, to ask for sanctions against Russia.
> It can be done by any politician and even by a presidential candidate.
> Not only on the Internet, but also on radio and central television channels.
> 
> Even more:
> Opposition media, which say the biggest shit, are sponsored by the Government.
> like this Эхо Москвы - новости, радио, политика, экономика, особое мнение
> People listen to what they say and will never vote for them. It's good...
> 
> I'll tell you a secret:
> - The USSR forbade such a mass media
> - Russia, on the contrary, supports. This is a good strategic move, since people will never support them.
> Look at this forum - there is such a character here. The more he craps, the better
> 
> Other opposition media outlets are sponsored from America by "black cash"
> 
> ================================================
> *There is nothing like this in America, because you do not have democracy and freedom.*
> You just tell the tales that monopolies allow you.
> There is no opposition in America.
> Sponsorship of the American media and political parties from abroad is prohibited.
> If any of your politicians say on television a phrase meaning "I do not like America," then he will end his career and be sent to ignore. Maybe then the CIA will find compromising evidence against him and he will be put in jail for some other crime ...
> ================================================
> 
> Why can I say this?
> 1. I lived in America and live in Russia
> 2. I speak Russian and English and can read any press
> 3. I can compare sources of information
> 
> Why can not you argue?
> 1. You have never been to Russia
> 2. You do not speak Russian and can only read the American press
> 3. You can not compare sources of information
> Therefore, you have wrong beliefs.
Click to expand...


The latest one is the opposition leader that was found guilty of something and then that made it so he could not run.  Or the poisoning of Russian Citizens that Putin finds dangerous.  Yes, you are free to say anything you want in Russia but that freedom will come at a very high price which also might mean your life.

I already figured out you are a Putin Sponsored Troll that will lie about things because your Leader wants you to.  I have never been to Russia but I have been inside of the USSR.  Things haven't changed that much in Russia no matter what you say.  It did for awhile but it's gone back to being the stifling country it once was.  There is a bit of Stalin in Putin.  So keep doing what you are doing.  We ain't buy'in it.


----------



## Selivan

Daryl Hunt said:


> The latest one is the opposition leader that was found guilty of something and then that made it so he could not run.  Or the poisoning of Russian Citizens that Putin finds dangerous.  Yes, you are free to say anything you want in Russia but that freedom will come at a very high price which also might mean your life.
> 
> I already figured out you are a Putin Sponsored Troll that will lie about things because your Leader wants you to.  I have never been to Russia but I have been inside of the USSR.  Things haven't changed that much in Russia no matter what you say.  It did for awhile but it's gone back to being the stifling country it once was.  There is a bit of Stalin in Putin.  So keep doing what you are doing.  We ain't buy'in it.



When a person does not have the right answer, then passes to insults.
You are not interesting for me

By the way, I do not like Putin


----------



## Daryl Hunt

Selivan said:


> Daryl Hunt said:
> 
> 
> 
> The latest one is the opposition leader that was found guilty of something and then that made it so he could not run.  Or the poisoning of Russian Citizens that Putin finds dangerous.  Yes, you are free to say anything you want in Russia but that freedom will come at a very high price which also might mean your life.
> 
> I already figured out you are a Putin Sponsored Troll that will lie about things because your Leader wants you to.  I have never been to Russia but I have been inside of the USSR.  Things haven't changed that much in Russia no matter what you say.  It did for awhile but it's gone back to being the stifling country it once was.  There is a bit of Stalin in Putin.  So keep doing what you are doing.  We ain't buy'in it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> When a person does not have the right answer, then passes to insults.
> You are not interesting for me
Click to expand...


Well, Comrade, I have the right to answer any way I wish to.  I call our President an Orange Orangutan (there are other colors than orange as well), I want ALL of our Congress replaced.  I was not in favor of the Iraqi War (and I said so numerous times), I say that our Government is a Corporate Controlled disaster.  And more.  And they haven't come after me yet since it's my right to say these things.

Now, back to the F-22.  And exactly what does Russia have in answer to the F-22 currently?  Nothing.  With the F-22 working in tandem with the new additions to the F-15 (missile trucks) there isn't much of a chance for your comrades to get off a shot first dodging all those incoming missiles.  So only half will actually hit.  But when your squadron has more than double the amount of missiles fired at them, half works.  The F-22 doesn't have to use his radar or even launch the missile himself.  He just passively guides them in.  And please, don't tell us of what the future will bring.  The present is the only thing that counts.  And, currently, your vaunted SU-57 is a sitting duck out there even if it were in full production (it's not).  Your SU-35 stands out like a sore thumb.  Even the F-35 can handle them.  Yes, you will claim that they can out dogfight a F-35.  Sure, but only a handful will get through.  Not enough to win the battle.  

Your claim that a SU-35 ran off a F-22 never happened.  The Truth came out on that one.  The SU-25 was on a run on US Supported fighters with the F-22 doing topcap.  It was inside the US zone.  The Two F-22s intercepted the SU-25 and dropped flares to ward it off.  Your SU-35 crossed the line and went to help the SU-25.  Except, all the while it had a F-22 dogging it's tail.  Both the SU-25 and SU-35 left the area being dogged from the rear by two F-22s.  I do think this a waste of the F-22 which is hard to see until it's almost right on top of you.  I think for this type of Mission a F-15 would have been better.  He won't sneak up on you but you will definitely see him wag his wings to show off his missile load.


----------



## Inmar

Selivan said:


> it is not interesting.
> You were told that you should give references to the Russian media, in which they say that your fighter really exists ...
> -------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------
> If the Russians will prove to you that they have the best fighter, they will only give American references


But the American turned on the button "fool"


----------



## Selivan

Inmar said:


> But the American turned on the button "fool"




I tell him that:
- In Russia, a *presidential candidate* can scold Russia and get support from America

He is turning round
- *I *in America can abuse my Government, so we have freedom

Probably, he believes that his person and the candidate for the presidency are one and the same


What can you still argue about?


----------



## Inmar

Now there will be "govno natsii" and will show links to some Paul Felgenhaur. Let's wait.


----------



## Daryl Hunt

Inmar said:


> Selivan said:
> 
> 
> 
> it is not interesting.
> You were told that you should give references to the Russian media, in which they say that your fighter really exists ...
> -------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------
> If the Russians will prove to you that they have the best fighter, they will only give American references
> 
> 
> 
> But the American turned on the button "fool"
Click to expand...


My Button is bigger than your button


----------



## Daryl Hunt

Selivan said:


> Inmar said:
> 
> 
> 
> But the American turned on the button "fool"
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I tell him that:
> - In Russia, a *presidential candidate* can scold Russia and get support from America
> 
> He is turning round
> - *I *in America can abuse my Government, so we have freedom
> 
> Probably, he believes that his person and the candidate for the presidency are one and the same
> 
> 
> What can you still argue about?
Click to expand...


Reminds me of an old joke.

An American was talking with a Russian.  The American said, "In America, we can burn the US flag, what about in Russia".  The Russian replied "In Russia we can also burn the American Flag".


----------



## Inmar

Daryl Hunt said:


> Reminds me of an old joke.
> 
> An American was talking with a Russian.  The American said, "In America, we can burn the US flag, what about in Russia".  The Russian replied "In Russia we can also burn the American Flag".


Yes, there was such a joke.


----------



## Inmar

Daryl Hunt said:


> My Button is bigger than your button




Real There was a telecast about architecture. One English architect is asked:
- Why do you build such small hospitals for the crazy? We saw great.
- where did you see them?
- in USA
 - aah ... but what surprises you then?


----------



## Selivan

Daryl Hunt said:


> My Button is bigger than your button



In the Russian mentality, the concept:
"turned on the button "Fool" - means that the opponent pretends that he does not understand the question, although he understands it perfectly, but does not want to answer, because he does not know the answer ....
Therefore, in Russian, your answer response sounds like:
"I'm even more of a fool than you" 
*Please do not be offended!*

You do not disappear ...

=============================================


Daryl Hunt said:


> Reminds me of an old joke.
> An American was talking with a Russian.  The American said, "In America, we can burn the US flag, what about in Russia".  The Russian replied "In Russia we can also burn the American Flag".


Another option from the 70's:
American:
- I can go to the White House and shout: "Carter is a moron!"
Soviet:
- I, too, can go to Red Square and shout: "Carter is a moron!"
--------------------------------------------------
*It's funny, but I meant completely different ...*


----------



## Daryl Hunt

Selivan said:


> Daryl Hunt said:
> 
> 
> 
> My Button is bigger than your button
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In the Russian mentality, the concept:
> "turned on the button "Fool" - means that the opponent pretends that he does not understand the question, although he understands it perfectly, but does not want to answer, because he does not know the answer ....
> Therefore, in Russian, your answer response sounds like:
> "I'm even more of a fool than you"
> *Please do not be offended!*
> 
> You do not disappear ...
> 
> =============================================
> 
> 
> Daryl Hunt said:
> 
> 
> 
> Reminds me of an old joke.
> An American was talking with a Russian.  The American said, "In America, we can burn the US flag, what about in Russia".  The Russian replied "In Russia we can also burn the American Flag".
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Another option from the 70's:
> American:
> - I can go to the White House and shout: "Carter is a moron!"
> Soviet:
> - I, too, can go to Red Square and shout: "Carter is a moron!"
> --------------------------------------------------
> *It's funny, but I meant completely different ...*
Click to expand...


I see you are listing the USSR as your home.  Hmm, brings to light on that one.  You keep posting.  An old Warrior like I am understands that between the battles there are very little differences between combatants.

By the Way, the comment I made about the size of my button was a Dig on President Trump.


----------



## Uncensored2008

onecut39 said:


> waltky said:
> 
> 
> 
> Granny gonna keep her eagle eye on this one...
> 
> *Mystery of F-22 illnesses grows*
> _May 9th, 2012 : Even as the Air Force searches for the reason pilots are getting sick flying the F-22, a new mystery about the troubled stealth fighter jet has come to light: Why are mechanics on the ground getting sick in the plane as well?_
> 
> 
> 
> The Air Force has been looking into a number of reports that pilots experienced "hypoxia-like symptoms" aboard F-22s since April 2008. Hypoxia is oxygen deficiency.  The Air Force reports 25 cases of such systems, including 11 since September, when the service cleared the F-22 fleet to return to flight after a four-month grounding.  The fleet was grounded in May 2011 so the service could check the hypoxia reports, but the order was lifted in September under a "return to fly" plan, with equipment modifications and new rules including daily inspections of the life-support systems.  "Early on in the return to fly we had five maintainers that reported hypoxia symptoms," Gen. Daniel Wyman, command surgeon for the Air Combat Command, said during a conference call with reporters Wednesday.
> 
> The maintainers are mechanics on the F-22's ground crews who sometimes have to be in the cockpit while the jet's engine is doing a ground run.  "The maintainers, when they are doing their ground run, are not on the mask, they are in the cockpit," Wyman said.  The problem with maintainers getting sick while on the ground throws a wrench into some of the theories about why at least 25 pilots have suffered hypoxia symptoms.  The Air Force experts trying to figure out the cause of the problem have pointed out that the F-22 flies higher and faster than its predecessors, the F-15 and F-16.
> 
> There has also been speculation that there perhaps could be a problem with the system that feeds oxygen to the pilot's mask while in flight.  Asked what is causing the symptoms in maintainers on the ground, not wearing a mask, Wyman said, "I can't answer that at this time."  Sunday, two F-22 pilots told CBS's "60 Minutes" that they would not fly the jet any more. One of the reasons they gave was that there is a problem with the carbon filter built into their mask to help remove contaminants from the air they breathe.
> 
> Wyman said that "a black dust was noted in some of the breathing hoses near the filters. We analyzed this dust and found it to be activated carbon."  But no activated carbon was found in "30 pilots who had their throat swabbed for testing."  Activated carbon is an inert form of charcoal that has been used in air filters for years.  Nonetheless, the Air Force has decided to remove carbon filters from the F-22 pilot masks.  The Air Force said Tuesday that no disciplinary action will be taken against the pilots for taking their concerns to "60 Minutes."
> 
> Mystery of F-22 illnesses grows  CNN Security Clearance - CNN.com Blogs
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> See also:
> 
> *Lt. General: No retaliation against F-22 whistleblowers*
> _May 9th, 2012 - The Air Force won't take disciplinary action against pilots whove raised concerns about or refused to fly F-22 Raptors because of reports of cockpit oxygen deprivation, an Air Force official told a Senate panel Tuesday, saying theyre covered by a federal whistleblower act._
> 
> 
> 
> The whistleblower protection extends to two Virginia Air National Guard pilots who recently talked to CBSs 60 Minutes about their refusal to fly the stealth jets, Lt. Gen. Janet Wolfenbarger told the Senate Armed Services subcommittee.
> 
> My understanding is that  the chief and the secretary in the Air Force have issued direction that these individuals are protected and that no negative action be taken, Wolfenbarger told U.S. Sen. Scott Brown, R-Massachusetts.
> 
> The Air Force has been looking into a number of reports that pilots experienced hypoxia-like symptoms aboard F-22s since April 2008. Hypoxia is oxygen deficiency.
> 
> CNN Security Clearance - CNN.com Blogs
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> The F22.  The most expensive, complex and useless fighter in history.
Click to expand...



Nonsense.

Why do the ignorant think we should still fly Sopwith Camels?

Dog fighting is useless, stealth is the key to survivability, where missile lock is the goal. The F22 is the most deadly craft in the skies.


----------



## Daryl Hunt

Uncensored2008 said:


> onecut39 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> waltky said:
> 
> 
> 
> Granny gonna keep her eagle eye on this one...
> 
> *Mystery of F-22 illnesses grows*
> _May 9th, 2012 : Even as the Air Force searches for the reason pilots are getting sick flying the F-22, a new mystery about the troubled stealth fighter jet has come to light: Why are mechanics on the ground getting sick in the plane as well?_
> 
> 
> 
> The Air Force has been looking into a number of reports that pilots experienced "hypoxia-like symptoms" aboard F-22s since April 2008. Hypoxia is oxygen deficiency.  The Air Force reports 25 cases of such systems, including 11 since September, when the service cleared the F-22 fleet to return to flight after a four-month grounding.  The fleet was grounded in May 2011 so the service could check the hypoxia reports, but the order was lifted in September under a "return to fly" plan, with equipment modifications and new rules including daily inspections of the life-support systems.  "Early on in the return to fly we had five maintainers that reported hypoxia symptoms," Gen. Daniel Wyman, command surgeon for the Air Combat Command, said during a conference call with reporters Wednesday.
> 
> The maintainers are mechanics on the F-22's ground crews who sometimes have to be in the cockpit while the jet's engine is doing a ground run.  "The maintainers, when they are doing their ground run, are not on the mask, they are in the cockpit," Wyman said.  The problem with maintainers getting sick while on the ground throws a wrench into some of the theories about why at least 25 pilots have suffered hypoxia symptoms.  The Air Force experts trying to figure out the cause of the problem have pointed out that the F-22 flies higher and faster than its predecessors, the F-15 and F-16.
> 
> There has also been speculation that there perhaps could be a problem with the system that feeds oxygen to the pilot's mask while in flight.  Asked what is causing the symptoms in maintainers on the ground, not wearing a mask, Wyman said, "I can't answer that at this time."  Sunday, two F-22 pilots told CBS's "60 Minutes" that they would not fly the jet any more. One of the reasons they gave was that there is a problem with the carbon filter built into their mask to help remove contaminants from the air they breathe.
> 
> Wyman said that "a black dust was noted in some of the breathing hoses near the filters. We analyzed this dust and found it to be activated carbon."  But no activated carbon was found in "30 pilots who had their throat swabbed for testing."  Activated carbon is an inert form of charcoal that has been used in air filters for years.  Nonetheless, the Air Force has decided to remove carbon filters from the F-22 pilot masks.  The Air Force said Tuesday that no disciplinary action will be taken against the pilots for taking their concerns to "60 Minutes."
> 
> Mystery of F-22 illnesses grows  CNN Security Clearance - CNN.com Blogs
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> See also:
> 
> *Lt. General: No retaliation against F-22 whistleblowers*
> _May 9th, 2012 - The Air Force won't take disciplinary action against pilots whove raised concerns about or refused to fly F-22 Raptors because of reports of cockpit oxygen deprivation, an Air Force official told a Senate panel Tuesday, saying theyre covered by a federal whistleblower act._
> 
> 
> 
> The whistleblower protection extends to two Virginia Air National Guard pilots who recently talked to CBSs 60 Minutes about their refusal to fly the stealth jets, Lt. Gen. Janet Wolfenbarger told the Senate Armed Services subcommittee.
> 
> My understanding is that  the chief and the secretary in the Air Force have issued direction that these individuals are protected and that no negative action be taken, Wolfenbarger told U.S. Sen. Scott Brown, R-Massachusetts.
> 
> The Air Force has been looking into a number of reports that pilots experienced hypoxia-like symptoms aboard F-22s since April 2008. Hypoxia is oxygen deficiency.
> 
> CNN Security Clearance - CNN.com Blogs
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> The F22.  The most expensive, complex and useless fighter in history.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Nonsense.
> 
> Why do the ignorant think we should still fly Sopwith Camels?
> 
> Dog fighting is useless, stealth is the key to survivability, where missile lock is the goal. The F22 is the most deadly craft in the skies.
Click to expand...


For those that think the F-22 can't turn, I watched it come in at fighting speeds, slow, and make a complete 180 in about 6 times it's own length and then pour the coals to it.  The F-22 can turn inside a Japanese Zero or an American P-51 and that is saying something.  About the only bird I know that might turn with a F-22 would be the old Bird Dog recon.  It can dog fight just fine.  Did you notice in the latest dustup where an AC-130 took out an entire column and even took out the black hats that were running away on foot in less than 10 seconds?  Considering those were really Russians, where was the SU-35s at?  They didn't come in because of the Topcap F-22s.  The US gloves are coming off.  Cross the line or attack across that line and expect the black hats to be wiped out to the man.  And there is nothing that the black hats can do about it except deny, deny, deny.


----------



## Selivan

Daryl Hunt said:


> I see you are listing the USSR as your home.  Hmm, brings to light on that one.  You keep posting.  An old Warrior like I am understands that between the battles there are very little differences between combatants.
> 
> By the Way, the comment I made about the size of my button was a Dig on President Trump.



*About President Trump to me it is not clear and uninteresting ... These are your American internal affairs
You will be surprised, but also about President Putin - too. *

Next
Of course...
I grew up in the USSR, served in the Frontier troops and fought in Приднестровье.
I have an education in Physics, Master of Technology, then I worked 18 years in the financial system ... Now I have my own small business, but I prefer to live in the forest: Build from wood, fishing and picking mushrooms.
My name is Andrew.


In the photo 1987 I'm on the right


----------



## Selivan

Uncensored2008 said:


> Nonsense.
> 
> Why do the ignorant think we should still fly Sopwith Camels?
> 
> Dog fighting is useless, stealth is the key to survivability, where missile lock is the goal. The F22 is the most deadly craft in the skies.



Of course, bullshit ...
But the old man is sure.
Never argue with the old!
==================================================
You must respect old age and just smile and nod your head.
The old people love it!


----------



## Selivan

*F-22 Stealth Fighter Cover-up? *


----------



## Daryl Hunt

Selivan said:


> Daryl Hunt said:
> 
> 
> 
> I see you are listing the USSR as your home.  Hmm, brings to light on that one.  You keep posting.  An old Warrior like I am understands that between the battles there are very little differences between combatants.
> 
> By the Way, the comment I made about the size of my button was a Dig on President Trump.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *About President Trump to me it is not clear and uninteresting ... These are your American internal affairs
> You will be surprised, but also about President Putin - too. *
> 
> Next
> Of course...
> I grew up in the USSR, served in the Frontier troops and fought in Приднестровье.
> I have an education in Physics, Master of Technology, then I worked 18 years in the financial system ... Now I have my own small business, but I prefer to live in the forest: Build from wood, fishing and picking mushrooms.
> My name is Andrew.
> 
> 
> In the photo 1987 I'm on the right
> View attachment 177046
Click to expand...


Hello Andrew.  Mine is Daryl.  I retired from the USAF not long after your picture was taken.  For the next 15 years, I bummed around until I established a Nation wide ISP.  Believe it or not, it's cheaper and easier to do a Nation Wide rather than a local.  Local politics are a bear.  

I grew up at 9200 feet so I can relate to the Woods idea.  Except where I lived and worked the place was murder on everything and a completely different life.  Cold, High Altitude, but we called it God's Country and it was and still is.  But I wanted to go get warm and go shopping more than 3 times a year.  And I hate mushrooms   Up until last week, I was the local distributor for Electric Bicycle Kits.  At 67, I decided to completely retire.  Time to dust off that fishing, visiting the woods and ignoring mushrooms in favor of Asparigas.  Yes,  what you want there is called retirement here.

Nice to hear from you.

BTW, what's the skinny on the SU-57?  And why didn't they upgrade the Mig-35 to make it something other than just an upgraded Mig-29?  The reason the F-22 is not being produced is that the followon bird to replace it is already nearing the end of the design phase.


----------



## Selivan

Frankly, the Google translator said that your name is Daril.
You wrote a lot of beeches, but I did not understand anything.
Sorry,


----------



## Daryl Hunt

Selivan said:


> Frankly, the Google translator said that your name is Daril.
> You wrote a lot of beeches, but I did not understand anything.
> Sorry,



Just like I really don't understand your "Beeches" statement.  Guess we are even.


----------



## Selivan

Daryl Hunt said:


> Just like I really don't understand your "Beeches" statement.  Guess we are even.


You are an old American goat, and I am a Soviet old goat.
That's all... 
We must be friends and do not be afraid
When you get old ... other values begin in Life ...
And you're all about planes ...
You better grow potatoes, cabbage, grow carrots on the ground ...
I do like this


----------



## Daryl Hunt

Selivan said:


> Daryl Hunt said:
> 
> 
> 
> Just like I really don't understand your "Beeches" statement.  Guess we are even.
> 
> 
> 
> You are an old American goat, and I am a Soviet old goat.
> That's all...
> We must be friends and do not be afraid
> When you get old ... other values begin in Life ...
> And you're all about planes ...
> You better grow potatoes, cabbage, grow carrots on the ground ...
> I do like this
Click to expand...


I am retired.  I retired about 4 times until it stuck this time.  I did my time growing potatoes, cabbage and carrots.  Along with working on high country ranches in many jobs I started out life as a Rancher.  USAF was just part of my life.  I also worked as an Entertainer while I was in USAF.  Made more money doing that than I did from my Military Check.  I wasn't really a Military Person.  I was a part time Military (don't tell any one.  they may not pay me my retirement) and a full time musician and entertainer.  But someone needs to grow those vegetables.  Can't have a decent steak without good green beans.

How could I be afraid of someone that works in the soil growing food?  You seem to be a good man.  I worry more about taking care of the Children that seem to be in serious harm these days.  I imagine that you would as well.  I don't know what is going on in Russia so I can't comment on the social life there.  It would be good if you were to start a new message in another area so we can talk about it and exchange ideas, information and more.  If you don't want to do it here, you can go to one of my other sites and discuss it there without the trolls and fruitcakes.

militaryvids.com or Droopyvids.com.   I don't let the fruitcakes of either side post any comments there.  Also, in military.com you might help out with the Russian Military Vids and subjects.  It would be greatly appreciated.


----------



## Selivan

If you need a calculation of a wooden house and construction, then you can ask me ...
I know how Americans build wooden houses ... - sorry ... it's garbage.
-----------------
I believe that Russians and Americans should argue only about the quality of the houses they build from natural materials. not on the quality of aircraft and missiles


----------



## Selivan

Daryl Hunt said:


> Hello Andrew.  Mine is Daryl.



Old Dear American Gentleman Daryl ... Tell me, American friend.
What do Russian SU-57s in Syria do?

- Russian media outlets write that the US F-22s no longer fly, because they are afraid to disgrace themselves?

*- And what do the American media write? *


----------



## Daryl Hunt

Selivan said:


> Daryl Hunt said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hello Andrew.  Mine is Daryl.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Old Dear American Gentleman Daryl ... Tell me, American friend.
> What do Russian SU-57s in Syria do?
> 
> - Russian media outlets write that the US F-22s no longer fly, because they are afraid to disgrace themselves?
> 
> *- And what do the American media write? *
Click to expand...


I don't see what it does.  The F-22 keeps flying.  No fear involved.  The SU-57 is an incomplete weapons system.  The SU-35 is more of a threat since it's more of a seasoned weapons system being based on the SU-27 and SU-30.  In American, having the SU-57 in Syria has ZERO affect militarily for America while it is being  used for propaganda for Russia as can be seen by your post.  I don't know if it will ever be much of a deciding factor.  But today, it's more of an oddity.  Our Media just mentions it and moves on.  It's not really that important.


----------



## Daryl Hunt

As to turning, I watch the SU-35 make a really tight turn using thrust vectoring.  Quite impressive.  The other day, I watched the F-22 version of it.  The F-22 put the speed brakes on, slowed down to a very slow rate, turned on it's side, turned 180 degrees in about 6 times it's own length, changed level, poured the coals and accelerated to past mach in a matter of a couple of seconds.  In a turn and burn fight, the F-22 can actually out turn the SU-35 by quite a margin since it can decelerate and accelerate quite a bit faster.  And the only way that the full use of the thrust vectoring can be used is at really slow speeds.  Otherwise, the G forces would turn the pilot into mush.

In a real fight, the fight would be just under Mach so neither one would use much of the Thrust vectoring so that would not be a real factor.  I hope we never find out which would win and which would lose.  Not good for world peace at that point.
'


----------



## Selivan

Typical American Gentleman ...
Even arguing is not necessary ... Of course, American aircraft are better than Russian ...

=====================================
Is American alcohol better than Russian?


----------



## Daryl Hunt

Selivan said:


> Typical American Gentleman ...
> Even arguing is not necessary ... Of course, American aircraft are better than Russian ...
> 
> =====================================
> Is American alcohol better than Russian?



Carrier Birds, SU-33 verus F-18.
Land Based Mig-29 versus F-16
Land Based SU-27/30 versus F-15
Ground Attack SU-25/24 versus A-10
Fighter Bomber SU-34 versus F-15E

I only listed those because those have the numbers to be counted.  And I separated the Carrier based fighters from the land based as the carrier based are generally heavier than the land based.  And the only ones that have really faced each other in combat have been the Mig-29 and the SU-25/24 against the F-15 and the SU-27 where the latter have cleaned house.  To date, the F-15 and the SU-27 have yet to face each other in combat so we just don't know.  this is not something that needs to be argued.

But, we can argue about Booze.  I   prefer English Gin myself.  Some things neither the Russians nor the Americans can really get right.


----------



## Selivan

Do you like cabbage and lamb?


----------



## Tijn Von Ingersleben

Selivan said:


> Is American alcohol better than Russian?


Which types? You folks probably have better vodka than we do. I dont know if i have ever tasted Russian beer? Do you folks make wine?


----------



## Daryl Hunt

Selivan said:


> Do you like cabbage and lamb?



If that is all that is available.  Hunger does that.  But I am Western Born which means Steak and Potatoes.


----------



## Inmar

Tijn Von Ingersleben said:


> Selivan said:
> 
> 
> 
> Is American alcohol better than Russian?
> 
> 
> 
> Which types? You folks probably have better vodka than we do. I dont know if i have ever tasted Russian beer? Do you folks make wine?
Click to expand...


Russian beer is shit. All production belongs to foreign monopolies. The best beer is Czech. Wine in Russia is also bad. When there was the USSR, the best wine was Moldavian.
Soviet production standards for Vodka were stolen and sold to America in 1991. Now the vodka is different. 
By the way, now vodka in Russia is very cheap. It costs less than 1 percent of the monthly salary. In the Soviet Union, vodka cost 5 percent of the monthly salary, but there were also more alcoholic drinks. Now.. It is very rare to meet a drunk.


----------



## Inmar

Selivan said:


> Typical American Gentleman ...
> Even arguing is not necessary ... Of course, American aircraft are better than Russian ...
> 
> =====================================
> Is American alcohol better than Russian?




As I understand, this is a joke. But Americans do not understand such jokes. They need to draw, for example, a curved nose, throw a cake in the face or when a person falls. They do not understand the subtle Russian humor.


----------



## Tijn Von Ingersleben

Inmar said:


> Tijn Von Ingersleben said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Selivan said:
> 
> 
> 
> Is American alcohol better than Russian?
> 
> 
> 
> Which types? You folks probably have better vodka than we do. I dont know if i have ever tasted Russian beer? Do you folks make wine?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Russian beer is shit. All production belongs to foreign monopolies. The best beer is Czech. Wine in Russia is also bad. When there was the USSR, the best wine was Moldavian.
Click to expand...

I have had Czech Budweiser...much better than our Budweiser...yich!


----------



## Inmar

Tijn Von Ingersleben said:


> Inmar said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tijn Von Ingersleben said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Selivan said:
> 
> 
> 
> Is American alcohol better than Russian?
> 
> 
> 
> Which types? You folks probably have better vodka than we do. I dont know if i have ever tasted Russian beer? Do you folks make wine?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Russian beer is shit. All production belongs to foreign monopolies. The best beer is Czech. Wine in Russia is also bad. When there was the USSR, the best wine was Moldavian.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I have had Czech Budweiser...much better than our Budweiser...yich!
Click to expand...


Unfortunately, Budweiser is the most primitive and cheap grade of Czech beer. In America, it is sold by its substitute Bud. If you have money, then go to the Czech Republic for the New Year in Prague. You will see a wonderful city and ... the Czechs will feed you and give you a drink so that you will never forget


----------



## Inmar

Selivan said:


> Do you like cabbage and lamb?


   Это чушь


----------



## waltky

F-35 program comes under scrutiny...
*




*
*Upgrades, Development to F-35 Jet Will Cost $1 Billion Per Year*
_8 Mar 2018 - Lawmakers are apprehensive about the strategy known as continuous capability development and delivery._


> Will it cost $1 billion or more just to update the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter every year?  That's the estimate from the F-35's Joint Program Office.  During a House Armed Services tactical air and land forces subcommittee hearing Wednesday, lawmakers were apprehensive about the strategy known as continuous capability development and delivery, or C2D2.  This strategy aims to do smaller, incremental updates instead of taking F-35s off the flightline to get months' worth of larger, packaged software and modernization upgrades needed to "keep up with the latest threats."   Citing a recent report delivered to Congress regarding C2D2, Rep. Niki Tsongas, D-Mass., said costs "may be as high as $11 billion in development and $5.4 billion in procurement" between fiscal 2018 and fiscal 2024 to achieve all the requirements.  "This potential cost of $16 billion is an astonishingly high amount and, as far as I am aware, greatly exceeds any cost figures previously provided to Congress," she said.  "It is important to remember this is a software-intensive effort, and the last 17 years of F-35 software development have seen dramatic cost increases and significant delays," Tsongas continued. "If Congress agrees to support this effort at this cost and under the proposed management regime, it should only do so fully aware of the significant risks involved."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vice Adm. Mat Winter, director of the F-35 Joint Program Office, said the current cost estimate stands at roughly $10.8 billion for development, of which $3.7 billion will be shared by U.S. allies operating the F-35. The Pentagon would thus be responsible for only $7.2 billion over seven years.  Tsongas also queried Air Force, Marine Corps and Navy officials on whether the proposal is reasonable for the fifth-generation stealth jet.  "None of the services have a true comfort level until we have a ... cost of how this is going to happen scoped out," said Lt. Gen. Steven R. Rudder, the Marine Corps' deputy commandant for aviation. "But year by year, we're going to put money into C2D2 at the levels that Admiral Winter is requesting currently."  Rudder testified alongside Winter; Air Force Lt. Gen Jerry D. Harris, deputy chief of staff for Plans, Programs and Requirements; and Rear Adm. Scott D. Conn, air warfare director for the office of the chief of Naval Operations.  Conn agreed with Rudder, and Harris added there are "funds laid in [the Air Force's] plan," as well as plans to reduce sustainment costs long term. He did not specify budget numbers.  C2D2 replaces what was once called Block 4 follow-on modernization, or the succeeding, repetitive mods to Block 4, the latest software modernization to upgrade the F-35's avionics and weapons delivery. Block 4 itself is slated for implementation sometime before the end of 2018.  "We just want to be sure this is rooted in reality," Tsongas said.  In a follow-up discussion with reporters, Winter laid out worst- and best-case cost scenarios.
> 
> Going through all of the pre-planning and execution -- when developers and engineers are needed, at what point a certain batch of F-35 Lightning IIs can receive the work, among other factors -- Winter said once those calculations formally come together, $10.8 billion for development is roughly correct.  "That estimate will most likely come down, but I don't guarantee anything," Winter said.  "But we've also looked at, if all of that is correct, what are the modifications to the fleet aircraft, so the procurement elements of this, the software's going to be minuscule," he said, referring to the $5.4 billion figure Tsongas cited.  "If I had all the hardware updates on the first year, it would be a less [of] a procurement cost because all of my new aircraft would already have it in there," Winter said.  In his written prepared testimony for the hearing, Winter cited the Pentagon's lessons learned from upgrading the F-22 Raptor, but did not specify what modifications to the stealth jet have cost. At the Defense Department's order, Lockheed Martin Corp. stopped producing the F-22 in 2011.  "Based on experience from the F-22, an eight-to-10-year span between technology refresh events will maintain viable warfighting capability throughout each cycle," he said in his testimony.  The F-35's total cost has been projected at more than $1 trillion over a 50-year lifetime.
> 
> Upgrades, Development to F-35 Jet Will Cost $1 Billion Per Year



See also:

*Lawmakers to Military: Don't Buy Another 'Money Pit' Like F-35*
_7 Mar 2018 - Lawmakers put military officials on the spot to explain how to prevent programs from becoming "too big to fail."_


> Members of the House Armed Services Committee met with acquisition chiefs from the Army, Navy and Air Force to assess how the services are using new congressional authorities to streamline the bureaucratic policies and procedures that often prevent combat systems from being fielded efficiently.  Rep. Adam Smith, D-Wash., asked what acquisition reform efforts are doing to prevent the services from becoming wedded to sacred-cow programs that are designed to do too much.  "If we could go back to 1997, we would not build the F-35 the way we are currently building it. It is, at the moment, too big to fail," Smith said. "It's the only attack jet fighter we have; we've got to build it. We've got to make it work.  "What would we do differently in the way we constructed that program, so that it didn't become the money pit that it has become?" he asked.
> 
> William Roper, assistant secretary of the Air Force for acquisition, said the service focused on starting with a capable base model and improving on it, rather than trying to create the perfect platform.  There is a lot of discipline to spiral development, Roper said, "as opposed to just kicking off a large program where there are multiple difficult things to do, hoping that they will somehow all work out and in the end you'll get the system that you want."  James F. "Hondo" Geurts, assistant secretary of the Navy for research, development and acquisition, said the Navy has taken this approach with its submarine programs over the past two decades.  "We have come up with a good submarine, and now we have got a very disciplined, rapid way to quickly get new technology onto those submarines," he said.  That's a way that we have tried to approach it, so you have a good base platform with a lot of resiliency and margins, so you can quickly iterate to wherever the direction goes, because we won't know what we need on those platforms 10 years from now," Geurts said.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Two U.S. Air Force F-35A Lightning IIs, assigned to the 4th Fighter Squadron from Hill Air Force Base, Utah, conduct flight training operations over the Utah Test and Training Range on Feb 14, 2018.​
> The Army's new acquisition reform effort involves the creation of "cross-functional teams" that will focus on rapid development of new platforms in the service's six new modernization priorities -- long-range precision fires; next-generation combat vehicle; future vertical lift; a mobile and expeditionary network; air and missile defense capabilities; and soldier lethality.  The concept is designed to embrace rapid prototyping and involve warfighters at the beginning and keep them engaged throughout the process.  HASC Chairman Mac Thornberry, R-Texas, questioned whether these CFTs will become part of the problem in the future.  "Why aren't these cross-functional teams that the Army has set up just another layer of bureaucracy?" he asked Bruce Jette, assistant secretary of the Army for acquisition, logistics and technology.
> 
> To Jette, the main problem with Army acquisition is there is no "tight linkage with the people that generate the requirement; the technology people who can bring the capabilities to the table that you want to think about as you are looking to the future; and the acquisition people who actually have to get into the field."  "The idea of the cross-functional teams is to bring that entity together in one place for specific areas of critical importance," Jette said.  "The biggest issue to me is, I see the value, and I want to see whether there is decay in the value over a long period of time," he said. "I don't think there is any intention with the senior leadership to allow that to happen."  Lawmakers also wanted to know how the services, and Congress, will be able to measure if the acquisitions process improves over time.  "It seems to me that a lot of what we talk about is process changes, and what we ought to be looking at is what is the output," Thornberry said.  "Because it doesn't really matter if we write lots of laws and you all ... change the regulations -- if we don't have the best our country can produce getting to the warfighter faster, then all of this is for naught."
> 
> In the past, program managers have been given credit for following acquisition processes to the "nth degree," Jette said.  "We are going to be product-oriented," he said. "Accountability is not whether you follow the process in detail, but whether or not you generate a product."  In most cases, the accountability and balance sheets are based on costs within the programs, Roper said.  "What I predict we are going to see greater need for and demand for is to have time-based metrics -- tracking things like time to contract, time to complete development, time to field," he said.  "Time to fail would be a great one, "Roper added, "if we want to quit having these large programs where the failure occurs 10 years after the start."
> 
> Lawmakers to Military: Don't Buy Another 'Money Pit' Like F-35


----------



## Daryl Hunt

waltky said:


> F-35 program comes under scrutiny...
> *
> 
> 
> 
> *
> *Upgrades, Development to F-35 Jet Will Cost $1 Billion Per Year*
> _8 Mar 2018 - Lawmakers are apprehensive about the strategy known as continuous capability development and delivery._
> 
> 
> 
> Will it cost $1 billion or more just to update the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter every year?  That's the estimate from the F-35's Joint Program Office.  During a House Armed Services tactical air and land forces subcommittee hearing Wednesday, lawmakers were apprehensive about the strategy known as continuous capability development and delivery, or C2D2.  This strategy aims to do smaller, incremental updates instead of taking F-35s off the flightline to get months' worth of larger, packaged software and modernization upgrades needed to "keep up with the latest threats."   Citing a recent report delivered to Congress regarding C2D2, Rep. Niki Tsongas, D-Mass., said costs "may be as high as $11 billion in development and $5.4 billion in procurement" between fiscal 2018 and fiscal 2024 to achieve all the requirements.  "This potential cost of $16 billion is an astonishingly high amount and, as far as I am aware, greatly exceeds any cost figures previously provided to Congress," she said.  "It is important to remember this is a software-intensive effort, and the last 17 years of F-35 software development have seen dramatic cost increases and significant delays," Tsongas continued. "If Congress agrees to support this effort at this cost and under the proposed management regime, it should only do so fully aware of the significant risks involved."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vice Adm. Mat Winter, director of the F-35 Joint Program Office, said the current cost estimate stands at roughly $10.8 billion for development, of which $3.7 billion will be shared by U.S. allies operating the F-35. The Pentagon would thus be responsible for only $7.2 billion over seven years.  Tsongas also queried Air Force, Marine Corps and Navy officials on whether the proposal is reasonable for the fifth-generation stealth jet.  "None of the services have a true comfort level until we have a ... cost of how this is going to happen scoped out," said Lt. Gen. Steven R. Rudder, the Marine Corps' deputy commandant for aviation. "But year by year, we're going to put money into C2D2 at the levels that Admiral Winter is requesting currently."  Rudder testified alongside Winter; Air Force Lt. Gen Jerry D. Harris, deputy chief of staff for Plans, Programs and Requirements; and Rear Adm. Scott D. Conn, air warfare director for the office of the chief of Naval Operations.  Conn agreed with Rudder, and Harris added there are "funds laid in [the Air Force's] plan," as well as plans to reduce sustainment costs long term. He did not specify budget numbers.  C2D2 replaces what was once called Block 4 follow-on modernization, or the succeeding, repetitive mods to Block 4, the latest software modernization to upgrade the F-35's avionics and weapons delivery. Block 4 itself is slated for implementation sometime before the end of 2018.  "We just want to be sure this is rooted in reality," Tsongas said.  In a follow-up discussion with reporters, Winter laid out worst- and best-case cost scenarios.
> 
> Going through all of the pre-planning and execution -- when developers and engineers are needed, at what point a certain batch of F-35 Lightning IIs can receive the work, among other factors -- Winter said once those calculations formally come together, $10.8 billion for development is roughly correct.  "That estimate will most likely come down, but I don't guarantee anything," Winter said.  "But we've also looked at, if all of that is correct, what are the modifications to the fleet aircraft, so the procurement elements of this, the software's going to be minuscule," he said, referring to the $5.4 billion figure Tsongas cited.  "If I had all the hardware updates on the first year, it would be a less [of] a procurement cost because all of my new aircraft would already have it in there," Winter said.  In his written prepared testimony for the hearing, Winter cited the Pentagon's lessons learned from upgrading the F-22 Raptor, but did not specify what modifications to the stealth jet have cost. At the Defense Department's order, Lockheed Martin Corp. stopped producing the F-22 in 2011.  "Based on experience from the F-22, an eight-to-10-year span between technology refresh events will maintain viable warfighting capability throughout each cycle," he said in his testimony.  The F-35's total cost has been projected at more than $1 trillion over a 50-year lifetime.
> 
> Upgrades, Development to F-35 Jet Will Cost $1 Billion Per Year
> 
> 
> 
> 
> See also:
> 
> *Lawmakers to Military: Don't Buy Another 'Money Pit' Like F-35*
> _7 Mar 2018 - Lawmakers put military officials on the spot to explain how to prevent programs from becoming "too big to fail."_
> 
> 
> 
> Members of the House Armed Services Committee met with acquisition chiefs from the Army, Navy and Air Force to assess how the services are using new congressional authorities to streamline the bureaucratic policies and procedures that often prevent combat systems from being fielded efficiently.  Rep. Adam Smith, D-Wash., asked what acquisition reform efforts are doing to prevent the services from becoming wedded to sacred-cow programs that are designed to do too much.  "If we could go back to 1997, we would not build the F-35 the way we are currently building it. It is, at the moment, too big to fail," Smith said. "It's the only attack jet fighter we have; we've got to build it. We've got to make it work.  "What would we do differently in the way we constructed that program, so that it didn't become the money pit that it has become?" he asked.
> 
> William Roper, assistant secretary of the Air Force for acquisition, said the service focused on starting with a capable base model and improving on it, rather than trying to create the perfect platform.  There is a lot of discipline to spiral development, Roper said, "as opposed to just kicking off a large program where there are multiple difficult things to do, hoping that they will somehow all work out and in the end you'll get the system that you want."  James F. "Hondo" Geurts, assistant secretary of the Navy for research, development and acquisition, said the Navy has taken this approach with its submarine programs over the past two decades.  "We have come up with a good submarine, and now we have got a very disciplined, rapid way to quickly get new technology onto those submarines," he said.  That's a way that we have tried to approach it, so you have a good base platform with a lot of resiliency and margins, so you can quickly iterate to wherever the direction goes, because we won't know what we need on those platforms 10 years from now," Geurts said.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Two U.S. Air Force F-35A Lightning IIs, assigned to the 4th Fighter Squadron from Hill Air Force Base, Utah, conduct flight training operations over the Utah Test and Training Range on Feb 14, 2018.​
> The Army's new acquisition reform effort involves the creation of "cross-functional teams" that will focus on rapid development of new platforms in the service's six new modernization priorities -- long-range precision fires; next-generation combat vehicle; future vertical lift; a mobile and expeditionary network; air and missile defense capabilities; and soldier lethality.  The concept is designed to embrace rapid prototyping and involve warfighters at the beginning and keep them engaged throughout the process.  HASC Chairman Mac Thornberry, R-Texas, questioned whether these CFTs will become part of the problem in the future.  "Why aren't these cross-functional teams that the Army has set up just another layer of bureaucracy?" he asked Bruce Jette, assistant secretary of the Army for acquisition, logistics and technology.
> 
> To Jette, the main problem with Army acquisition is there is no "tight linkage with the people that generate the requirement; the technology people who can bring the capabilities to the table that you want to think about as you are looking to the future; and the acquisition people who actually have to get into the field."  "The idea of the cross-functional teams is to bring that entity together in one place for specific areas of critical importance," Jette said.  "The biggest issue to me is, I see the value, and I want to see whether there is decay in the value over a long period of time," he said. "I don't think there is any intention with the senior leadership to allow that to happen."  Lawmakers also wanted to know how the services, and Congress, will be able to measure if the acquisitions process improves over time.  "It seems to me that a lot of what we talk about is process changes, and what we ought to be looking at is what is the output," Thornberry said.  "Because it doesn't really matter if we write lots of laws and you all ... change the regulations -- if we don't have the best our country can produce getting to the warfighter faster, then all of this is for naught."
> 
> In the past, program managers have been given credit for following acquisition processes to the "nth degree," Jette said.  "We are going to be product-oriented," he said. "Accountability is not whether you follow the process in detail, but whether or not you generate a product."  In most cases, the accountability and balance sheets are based on costs within the programs, Roper said.  "What I predict we are going to see greater need for and demand for is to have time-based metrics -- tracking things like time to contract, time to complete development, time to field," he said.  "Time to fail would be a great one, "Roper added, "if we want to quit having these large programs where the failure occurs 10 years after the start."
> 
> Lawmakers to Military: Don't Buy Another 'Money Pit' Like F-35
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


Never has one type of Aircraft been asked to do all of the things that the F-35 has been tasked to do.  And it's done them.  About the time we think they are done with it's requirements, here comes new ones.  In a squadron operation, it's more deadly than even the F-22.  It's the best Assault Fighter there is.  It's a flying Command Post, and more.  It's capable of picking up Naval Missiles and giving those missiles ranges that the Naval Ships can't.  The list keeps getting longer.  And in 2021, it goes operational with Tactical Lasers.   Meanwhile, all it's systems are being improved on and incorporated into the 6th gen fighter and the B-21 keeping those head and shoulders above anything else for decades to come when they come out in 2025.  The F-35 IS too big to fail but the alternative is failure.  I choose success.


----------



## waltky

Pilots 'Not Making Things Up,' Air Force Says of 'Hypoxia' Incidents...

*Pilots 'Not Making Things Up,' Air Force Says of 'Hypoxia' Incident*
_12 Jul 2018 - The Air Force has ruled out pilots' mistaking symptoms in hypoxia incidents_


> The Air Force has yet to find the cause for a surge of hypoxia-like incidents in a wide variety of aircraft but has ruled out the possibility that pilots could be mistaking symptoms in some cases.  "We know for a fact what our pilots are experiencing in the airplanes -- our pilots are not making things up" when they report incidents, Air Force Lt. Gen. Mark C. Nowland, deputy chief of staff for operations, told Military.com after an aviation safety hearing last month before the House Armed Services Subcommittee on Readiness.  In an interview last week, Col. William Mueller, director of the Air Force-Pilot Physicians Program, backed up Nowland on the veracity of pilot reports of hypoxia-like symptoms, including shortness of breath, confusion and wheezing while in aircraft ranging from trainers to the most advanced fighters.  "It's real stuff; people are not making this up," said Mueller, a pilot with a medical degree who also serves as career manager for Air Force medical officers who are qualified as pilots and flight surgeons.
> 
> Mueller is working with a team of Air Force investigators, in coordination with the Navy and NASA, that is attempting to pinpoint causes for what the Air Force calls Unexplained Physiological Events (UPEs) experienced by pilots.  Air Force officials, in studies and in congressional hearings, have outlined three possibilities: failures in the oxygen delivery system, contaminants in the system, and unusual levels of carbon dioxide.  At a Senate Armed Services Committee hearing in April, Air Force Chief of Staff Gen. David Goldfein said, "We don't have the smoking gun yet" in the search for a root cause of the incidents, "and we're not going to stop until we find it."  Although the cause remains a mystery, Goldfein said the service has gained valuable knowledge since a series of incidents in 2010 involving F-22 Raptors, the most advanced U.S. fighters.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> U.S. Air Force Senior Airman Darrian Caskey performs a seal check on the mask of 1st Lt. Alex Medina in the altitude hypobaric chamber for USAFSAM hypoxia demo training at Wright-Patterson Air Force Base, Ohio, April 26, 2017​
> In November 2010, Air Force Capt. Jeff Haney was killed in the crash of his F-22 on a training mission in Alaska. The controversial Air Force investigation found that Haney suffered "severe restricted breathing" during the flight but still ruled that pilot error was the main cause of the crash.  There were 11 other hypoxia-type incidents involving F-22s between 2008 and 2011, according to the Air Force, and much of the concern at the time was with the On-Board Oxygen Generation Systems, or OBOGS. It was developed in the 1980s as a source of limitless oxygen for pilots and a replacement for the canisters of compressed liquid or gaseous oxygen that had been used previously.  The OBOGS was designed to draw air from the plane's engine compressor before combustion and run it through a series of scrubbers to remove nitrogen.
> 
> Although the focus was on the OBOGS in the F-22 investigation, the Air Force later concluded the problem was with a valve controlling the pilot's pressure vest, which could allow the vest to inflate and restrict the pilot's ability to breathe.  Since then, the service has worked with engineers, physiologists, contractors and operators of various types of aircraft to get a broader understanding of the problem, Goldfein said at the April hearing.  In examining the F-22 incidents, the Air Force concluded the problem likely was not hypoxia, an oxygen deficiency, but rather hypocapnia, a condition of too little carbon dioxide in the blood that can be caused by hyperventilation, he said.  In addition to hypoxia and hypocapnia, the Air Force also had to be concerned with hypercapnia, an excessive amount of carbon dioxide in the bloodstream, Mueller said in the interview with Military.com.  "There are a lot of possible medical explanations," but none has been pinned down, he said.
> 
> MORE


----------



## waltky

*Navy, Air Force Team Up to Get to Bottom of Oxygen Deprivation Among Pilots...*
*



*
*Navy, Air Force Team Up to Get to Bottom of Oxygen Deprivation Among Pilots*
_14 Sep 2018  -- The Navy and the Air Force are teaming up to get to the root cause of oxygen deprivation among its pilots, which officials have said is their biggest safety concern in aviation._


> Pilots flying the Navy's F/A-18 Super Hornets and the Air Force's F-22 Raptors have reported in recent years experiencing hypoxia-like symptoms while flying, and solving it has proved difficult for both branches.  Hampton Roads is home to both aircraft, with Super Hornets based at Naval Air Station Oceana in Virginia Beach and Raptors at Langley Air Force Base in Hampton.
> 
> Hypoxia symptoms include nausea, tingling, fatigue and disorientation. Pilots also have been experiencing decompression sickness, which causes double vision, headaches, dizziness and other issues. Broadly, the episodes typically are related to unscheduled pressure changes or pilots breathing gas.  "We want to gather and share as much information as possible to bring viable solutions to the table," said Rear Adm. Fredrick R. Luchtman in a statement. "This joint effort will help us to minimize risk faster and smarter. We owe it to our aviators. This partnership will help us tackle the complexities of physiological episodes on a broader scale by eliminating redundant efforts and maximizing the application of resources. It's a win-win across the board."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A U.S. Air Force F-22 Raptor departs the runway May 9, 2017, while a U.S. Navy F-18 Super Hornet and another F-22 crawl up the ramp in preparation for takeoff.​
> The Naval Aerospace Medical Research Laboratory in Dayton, Ohio, is already building several aircraft-specific life support system simulators to reproduce the breathing environments of the T-45 and F/A-18 aircraft. The facility's new respiratory physiology laboratory will study the effects of variable breathing gas mixtures, in-line breathing resistance, breathing gas pressure and flow disruptions, as well as flight equipment fit on aircrew physiology and cognitive function, according to the Navy.  The Air Force announced the new partnership, called the Joint Physiological Episodes Action Team, at the Pentagon on Tuesday. "Adopting a common team name, creating the Joint PEAT and better leveraging our joint data, research and resources will improve safety and combat readiness," said Brig. Gen. Edward Vaughan, AF-PEAT leader.
> 
> The services broadly refer to the incidents as physiological episodes and the Navy already has a website dedicated to it at Navy News Feature. The Air Force said that site will soon be co-branded and include Air Force physiological episode information as well as new joint findings.
> 
> Navy, Air Force Team Up to Get to Bottom of Oxygen Deprivation Among Pilots



See also:

*Air Force Announces Fix to Hypoxia Problems in T-6 Aircraft*
_14 Sep 2018 - Air Force officials say they have identified a fix to problems in the T-6 Texan II trainer aircraft that were making pilots short of breath and resulted in a month-long fleet grounding in February._


> Following a six-month investigation, Air Education and Training Command announced Thursday that a team of experts including Navy, Air Force and NASA personnel had pinpointed the issue as a fluctuation in oxygen concentrations in the cockpit while the trainer aircraft was in flight.  To fix the problem, officials said, a series of corrective measures has been identified, including redesigning the aircraft's oxygen system and adjusting oxygen control levels in flight. AETC also plans to ramp up maintenance on the aircraft's onboard oxygen generation system, or OBOGS.  "So far, technical efforts to date and analysis of data collected have determined that pilots have been exposed to significantly changing levels of oxygen concentration," Lt. Gen. Steve Kwast, commander of AETC, said in a released statement. "The varying levels of oxygen concentration, even though in excess of what the body typically needs, [have] caused physiological stress that most pilots on most days actually adapt to without noticing."
> 
> Following a series of what the Air Force calls unexplained physiological episodes, or UPEs, the commander of the 19th Air Force, Maj. Gen. Patrick Doherty, announced in February 2018 that the entire T-6 fleet would undergo an operational pause. During the pause, which lasted until Feb. 27, the service organized an independent team of experts to determine the causes of the episodes.  Some of the findings came back quickly. According to an AETC release Thursday, the team found that OBOGS filter and drain valves failed at higher rates than expected, a discovery that led to repairs and increased inspections. But despite these efforts, the pilot episodes continued.  Air Force Times reported in April that there had been a dozen T-6 UPEs in the two months following the T-6 fleet grounding.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The T-6A Texan II is a single-engine, two-seat primary trainer designed to train Joint Primary Pilot Training, or JPPT, students in basic flying skills common to U.S. Air Force and Navy pilots.​
> Now, AETC, working with Air Force Materiel Command, is engaged in a longer-term process that involves redesigning the T-6 OBOGS apparatus to build in more consistency in the oxygen levels delivered to pilots. The two commands are also working with Beechcraft, the manufacturer, to alter the software algorithm to stabilize oxygen concentrations in the cockpit, according to officials.  "While this should reduce physiological events, the Air Force will pursue a broader redesign," AETC officials said in the release.  It's possible the fixes to the T-6, which are expected to take two to four years to implement, will be applicable to other aircraft that have had reported physiological episodes. Air Force planes with reported incidents include A-10 Thunderbolt IIs, F-22 Raptors and F-35A Joint Strike Fighters, while affected Navy aircraft include F/A-18 Hornets, EA-18G Growlers and T-45 Goshawk trainers.
> 
> Brig. Gen. Edward Vaughan, the officer in charge of solving the physiological episodes problem for the Air Force, will work with other services to decide if the OBOGS fix for the T-6 will work for other aircraft, according to the release.  Current T-6 pilots will also receive additional training materials to help them identify problematic symptoms and correct issues that arise, officials said.  "Since our T-6 operational pause, we have made every effort to communicate with every instructor and every student exactly what we've found," Doherty said in a statement. "Transparency remains of utmost importance to us as we all work together to ensure that our pilots are safe and know the way ahead."
> 
> Air Force Announces Fix to Hypoxia Problems in T-6 Aircraft


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## Admiral Rockwell Tory

waltky said:


> *Navy, Air Force Team Up to Get to Bottom of Oxygen Deprivation Among Pilots...*
> *
> 
> 
> 
> *
> *Navy, Air Force Team Up to Get to Bottom of Oxygen Deprivation Among Pilots*
> _14 Sep 2018  -- The Navy and the Air Force are teaming up to get to the root cause of oxygen deprivation among its pilots, which officials have said is their biggest safety concern in aviation._
> 
> 
> 
> Pilots flying the Navy's F/A-18 Super Hornets and the Air Force's F-22 Raptors have reported in recent years experiencing hypoxia-like symptoms while flying, and solving it has proved difficult for both branches.  Hampton Roads is home to both aircraft, with Super Hornets based at Naval Air Station Oceana in Virginia Beach and Raptors at Langley Air Force Base in Hampton.
> 
> Hypoxia symptoms include nausea, tingling, fatigue and disorientation. Pilots also have been experiencing decompression sickness, which causes double vision, headaches, dizziness and other issues. Broadly, the episodes typically are related to unscheduled pressure changes or pilots breathing gas.  "We want to gather and share as much information as possible to bring viable solutions to the table," said Rear Adm. Fredrick R. Luchtman in a statement. "This joint effort will help us to minimize risk faster and smarter. We owe it to our aviators. This partnership will help us tackle the complexities of physiological episodes on a broader scale by eliminating redundant efforts and maximizing the application of resources. It's a win-win across the board."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A U.S. Air Force F-22 Raptor departs the runway May 9, 2017, while a U.S. Navy F-18 Super Hornet and another F-22 crawl up the ramp in preparation for takeoff.​
> *The Naval Aerospace Medical Research Laboratory in Dayton, Ohio*, is already building several aircraft-specific life support system simulators to reproduce the breathing environments of the T-45 and F/A-18 aircraft. The facility's new respiratory physiology laboratory will study the effects of variable breathing gas mixtures, in-line breathing resistance, breathing gas pressure and flow disruptions, as well as flight equipment fit on aircrew physiology and cognitive function, according to the Navy.  The Air Force announced the new partnership, called the Joint Physiological Episodes Action Team, at the Pentagon on Tuesday. "Adopting a common team name, creating the Joint PEAT and better leveraging our joint data, research and resources will improve safety and combat readiness," said Brig. Gen. Edward Vaughan, AF-PEAT leader.
> 
> The services broadly refer to the incidents as physiological episodes and the Navy already has a website dedicated to it at Navy News Feature. The Air Force said that site will soon be co-branded and include Air Force physiological episode information as well as new joint findings.
> 
> Navy, Air Force Team Up to Get to Bottom of Oxygen Deprivation Among Pilots
> 
> 
> 
> 
> See also:
> 
> *Air Force Announces Fix to Hypoxia Problems in T-6 Aircraft*
> _14 Sep 2018 - Air Force officials say they have identified a fix to problems in the T-6 Texan II trainer aircraft that were making pilots short of breath and resulted in a month-long fleet grounding in February._
> 
> 
> 
> Following a six-month investigation, Air Education and Training Command announced Thursday that a team of experts including Navy, Air Force and NASA personnel had pinpointed the issue as a fluctuation in oxygen concentrations in the cockpit while the trainer aircraft was in flight.  To fix the problem, officials said, a series of corrective measures has been identified, including redesigning the aircraft's oxygen system and adjusting oxygen control levels in flight. AETC also plans to ramp up maintenance on the aircraft's onboard oxygen generation system, or OBOGS.  "So far, technical efforts to date and analysis of data collected have determined that pilots have been exposed to significantly changing levels of oxygen concentration," Lt. Gen. Steve Kwast, commander of AETC, said in a released statement. "The varying levels of oxygen concentration, even though in excess of what the body typically needs, [have] caused physiological stress that most pilots on most days actually adapt to without noticing."
> 
> Following a series of what the Air Force calls unexplained physiological episodes, or UPEs, the commander of the 19th Air Force, Maj. Gen. Patrick Doherty, announced in February 2018 that the entire T-6 fleet would undergo an operational pause. During the pause, which lasted until Feb. 27, the service organized an independent team of experts to determine the causes of the episodes.  Some of the findings came back quickly. According to an AETC release Thursday, the team found that OBOGS filter and drain valves failed at higher rates than expected, a discovery that led to repairs and increased inspections. But despite these efforts, the pilot episodes continued.  Air Force Times reported in April that there had been a dozen T-6 UPEs in the two months following the T-6 fleet grounding.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The T-6A Texan II is a single-engine, two-seat primary trainer designed to train Joint Primary Pilot Training, or JPPT, students in basic flying skills common to U.S. Air Force and Navy pilots.​
> Now, AETC, working with Air Force Materiel Command, is engaged in a longer-term process that involves redesigning the T-6 OBOGS apparatus to build in more consistency in the oxygen levels delivered to pilots. The two commands are also working with Beechcraft, the manufacturer, to alter the software algorithm to stabilize oxygen concentrations in the cockpit, according to officials.  "While this should reduce physiological events, the Air Force will pursue a broader redesign," AETC officials said in the release.  It's possible the fixes to the T-6, which are expected to take two to four years to implement, will be applicable to other aircraft that have had reported physiological episodes. Air Force planes with reported incidents include A-10 Thunderbolt IIs, F-22 Raptors and F-35A Joint Strike Fighters, while affected Navy aircraft include F/A-18 Hornets, EA-18G Growlers and T-45 Goshawk trainers.
> 
> Brig. Gen. Edward Vaughan, the officer in charge of solving the physiological episodes problem for the Air Force, will work with other services to decide if the OBOGS fix for the T-6 will work for other aircraft, according to the release.  Current T-6 pilots will also receive additional training materials to help them identify problematic symptoms and correct issues that arise, officials said.  "Since our T-6 operational pause, we have made every effort to communicate with every instructor and every student exactly what we've found," Doherty said in a statement. "Transparency remains of utmost importance to us as we all work together to ensure that our pilots are safe and know the way ahead."
> 
> Air Force Announces Fix to Hypoxia Problems in T-6 Aircraft
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


Great article, but I worry that someone is talking out of their ass.

 For example, the Naval Aerospace Medical Research Lab is in Pensacola, Florida, not Dayton, Ohio.  
That would likely be the Chair Forces lab, since that s where Wright-Patterson AFB is located.

How much of the other material did they get wrong?.


----------



## Daryl Hunt

Admiral Rockwell Tory said:


> waltky said:
> 
> 
> 
> *Navy, Air Force Team Up to Get to Bottom of Oxygen Deprivation Among Pilots...*
> *
> 
> 
> 
> *
> *Navy, Air Force Team Up to Get to Bottom of Oxygen Deprivation Among Pilots*
> _14 Sep 2018  -- The Navy and the Air Force are teaming up to get to the root cause of oxygen deprivation among its pilots, which officials have said is their biggest safety concern in aviation._
> 
> 
> 
> Pilots flying the Navy's F/A-18 Super Hornets and the Air Force's F-22 Raptors have reported in recent years experiencing hypoxia-like symptoms while flying, and solving it has proved difficult for both branches.  Hampton Roads is home to both aircraft, with Super Hornets based at Naval Air Station Oceana in Virginia Beach and Raptors at Langley Air Force Base in Hampton.
> 
> Hypoxia symptoms include nausea, tingling, fatigue and disorientation. Pilots also have been experiencing decompression sickness, which causes double vision, headaches, dizziness and other issues. Broadly, the episodes typically are related to unscheduled pressure changes or pilots breathing gas.  "We want to gather and share as much information as possible to bring viable solutions to the table," said Rear Adm. Fredrick R. Luchtman in a statement. "This joint effort will help us to minimize risk faster and smarter. We owe it to our aviators. This partnership will help us tackle the complexities of physiological episodes on a broader scale by eliminating redundant efforts and maximizing the application of resources. It's a win-win across the board."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A U.S. Air Force F-22 Raptor departs the runway May 9, 2017, while a U.S. Navy F-18 Super Hornet and another F-22 crawl up the ramp in preparation for takeoff.​
> *The Naval Aerospace Medical Research Laboratory in Dayton, Ohio*, is already building several aircraft-specific life support system simulators to reproduce the breathing environments of the T-45 and F/A-18 aircraft. The facility's new respiratory physiology laboratory will study the effects of variable breathing gas mixtures, in-line breathing resistance, breathing gas pressure and flow disruptions, as well as flight equipment fit on aircrew physiology and cognitive function, according to the Navy.  The Air Force announced the new partnership, called the Joint Physiological Episodes Action Team, at the Pentagon on Tuesday. "Adopting a common team name, creating the Joint PEAT and better leveraging our joint data, research and resources will improve safety and combat readiness," said Brig. Gen. Edward Vaughan, AF-PEAT leader.
> 
> The services broadly refer to the incidents as physiological episodes and the Navy already has a website dedicated to it at Navy News Feature. The Air Force said that site will soon be co-branded and include Air Force physiological episode information as well as new joint findings.
> 
> Navy, Air Force Team Up to Get to Bottom of Oxygen Deprivation Among Pilots
> 
> 
> 
> 
> See also:
> 
> *Air Force Announces Fix to Hypoxia Problems in T-6 Aircraft*
> _14 Sep 2018 - Air Force officials say they have identified a fix to problems in the T-6 Texan II trainer aircraft that were making pilots short of breath and resulted in a month-long fleet grounding in February._
> 
> 
> 
> Following a six-month investigation, Air Education and Training Command announced Thursday that a team of experts including Navy, Air Force and NASA personnel had pinpointed the issue as a fluctuation in oxygen concentrations in the cockpit while the trainer aircraft was in flight.  To fix the problem, officials said, a series of corrective measures has been identified, including redesigning the aircraft's oxygen system and adjusting oxygen control levels in flight. AETC also plans to ramp up maintenance on the aircraft's onboard oxygen generation system, or OBOGS.  "So far, technical efforts to date and analysis of data collected have determined that pilots have been exposed to significantly changing levels of oxygen concentration," Lt. Gen. Steve Kwast, commander of AETC, said in a released statement. "The varying levels of oxygen concentration, even though in excess of what the body typically needs, [have] caused physiological stress that most pilots on most days actually adapt to without noticing."
> 
> Following a series of what the Air Force calls unexplained physiological episodes, or UPEs, the commander of the 19th Air Force, Maj. Gen. Patrick Doherty, announced in February 2018 that the entire T-6 fleet would undergo an operational pause. During the pause, which lasted until Feb. 27, the service organized an independent team of experts to determine the causes of the episodes.  Some of the findings came back quickly. According to an AETC release Thursday, the team found that OBOGS filter and drain valves failed at higher rates than expected, a discovery that led to repairs and increased inspections. But despite these efforts, the pilot episodes continued.  Air Force Times reported in April that there had been a dozen T-6 UPEs in the two months following the T-6 fleet grounding.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The T-6A Texan II is a single-engine, two-seat primary trainer designed to train Joint Primary Pilot Training, or JPPT, students in basic flying skills common to U.S. Air Force and Navy pilots.​
> Now, AETC, working with Air Force Materiel Command, is engaged in a longer-term process that involves redesigning the T-6 OBOGS apparatus to build in more consistency in the oxygen levels delivered to pilots. The two commands are also working with Beechcraft, the manufacturer, to alter the software algorithm to stabilize oxygen concentrations in the cockpit, according to officials.  "While this should reduce physiological events, the Air Force will pursue a broader redesign," AETC officials said in the release.  It's possible the fixes to the T-6, which are expected to take two to four years to implement, will be applicable to other aircraft that have had reported physiological episodes. Air Force planes with reported incidents include A-10 Thunderbolt IIs, F-22 Raptors and F-35A Joint Strike Fighters, while affected Navy aircraft include F/A-18 Hornets, EA-18G Growlers and T-45 Goshawk trainers.
> 
> Brig. Gen. Edward Vaughan, the officer in charge of solving the physiological episodes problem for the Air Force, will work with other services to decide if the OBOGS fix for the T-6 will work for other aircraft, according to the release.  Current T-6 pilots will also receive additional training materials to help them identify problematic symptoms and correct issues that arise, officials said.  "Since our T-6 operational pause, we have made every effort to communicate with every instructor and every student exactly what we've found," Doherty said in a statement. "Transparency remains of utmost importance to us as we all work together to ensure that our pilots are safe and know the way ahead."
> 
> Air Force Announces Fix to Hypoxia Problems in T-6 Aircraft
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Great article, but I worry that someone is talking out of their ass.
> 
> For example, the Naval Aerospace Medical Research Lab is in Pensacola, Florida, not Dayton, Ohio.
> That would likely be the Chair Forces lab, since that s where Wright-Patterson AFB is located.
> 
> How much of the other material did they get wrong?.
Click to expand...


Guess you need to be busted down to Seaman 3rd on this one.  The article got the location correct.  Are you in such a hurry to be correct that you don't bother to do any form of fact checking before you open that big mouth?

Naval Medical Research Unit Dayton
_The Naval Medical Research Unit Dayton is a major DoD medical research command and the home of the Naval Aerospace Medical Research Laboratory and the Environmental Health Effects Laboratory. As a subordinate command to Naval Medical Research Center, NAMRU-D conducts aerospace medical and environmental health effects research to enhance warfighter health, safety, performance, and readiness. NAMRU-D conducts research to address identified Fleet needs, and results in products and solutions ranging from basic knowledge, to fielded technologies._


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