# Best Health Care, Huh?



## jillian (Jun 16, 2014)

> Five ways the American health care system is literally the worst
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> The United States comes in dead last in a new, international ranking of health care systems from a top health-care non-profit.
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more at link

Five ways the American health care system is literally the worst - Vox


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## Statistikhengst (Jun 17, 2014)

I downloaded the full report and will study it first. Others can do likewise:

http://www.commonwealthfund.org/~/m...rt/2014/jun/1755_davis_mirror_mirror_2014.pdf


And the overview:

http://www.commonwealthfund.org/publications/fund-reports/2014/jun/mirror-mirror


Important to find out exactly how they conducted the study and if it is kosher before jumping to any personal conclusions. I  say this about EVERY study, without exception.

Will get back with you on this once I have digested the study.


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## bripat9643 (Jun 17, 2014)

jillian said:


> > Five ways the American health care system is literally the worst
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> > The United States comes in dead last in a new, international ranking of health care systems from a top health-care non-profit.
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Categories like the following:

access
efficiency
equity
healthy lives​
don't measure the quality of healthcare.  They measure how socialist it is, or they measure cultural issues that affect health.

The article doesn't explain how the other categories:

effective care
safe care
coordinated care
patient centered care​
are measured.  Furthermore, the last two sound like bogus measures that don't really measure the quality of the care.

The only thing that really measures the quality of healthcare:  ie, how many people who go into the hospital with a health issue come out with a successful resolution.  The United States beats every other country by far in that category - the only one that matters to the patient.

In short, your article is bullshit propaganda.


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## TemplarKormac (Jun 17, 2014)

Looks like this thread was dismantled in one post. Moreover, Vox appears to be a liberally slanted news site, jillian, simply by reading the headlines in the column on the right hand side of the screen and on the front page. How do you expect us to think this article is honest?

I just finished the Commonwealth overview, and it blatantly calls for universal healthcare. Moreover, only comparing us to 11 countries is a sorry excuse regarding an abstract for a study on the quality of healthcare. So as it stands, the Commonwealth Fund is being used as a mouthpiece for Obamacare. I cannot speak for the veracity of the study given such a development.

Obamacare is responsible for the drastic rise in healthcare costs anyhow.


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## Rambunctious (Jun 17, 2014)

It cost at least double today for me to cover my family than it did last year. That dang Bush!


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## Kosh (Jun 17, 2014)

Another far left fail thread!


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## The Rabbi (Jun 17, 2014)

jillian said:


> > Five ways the American health care system is literally the worst
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> > The United States comes in dead last in a new, international ranking of health care systems from a top health-care non-profit.
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> ...


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## jillian (Jun 17, 2014)

bripat9643 said:


> jillian said:
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what it measures is ACCESS. if you can't OBTAIN health care, then it doesn't matter how effective, safe, coordinated or patient-centered the care is.

so yes, i'd choose columbia pres/ny hospital cornell over almost anything in the world if i needed a hospital (or mass general or johns hopkins, etc.) but if you earn $100,000 a year and your care is going to cost $300,000 then it doesn't matter how good the doctors are.


as for it meaning how many people who go to a doctor have a successful resolution, what else would you measure health care by some fantasmagircal make believe standard where you chant USA USA?

how about the right stop being defensive about the things we don't do well... and start solving problems?

oh right... that would mean thought, and a desire to solve those problems and actually govern.

never mind.


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## jillian (Jun 17, 2014)

TemplarKormac said:


> Looks like this thread was dismantled in one post. Moreover, Vox appears to be a liberally slanted news site, jillian, simply by reading the headlines in the column on the right hand side of the screen and on the front page. How do you expect us to think this is article is honest?
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> I just finished the Commonwealth overview, and it blatantly calls for universal healthcare. Moreover, only comparing us to 11 countries is a sorry excuse regarding an abstract for a study on the quality of healthcare. So as it stands, the Commonwealth Fund is being used as a mouthpiece for Obamacare. I cannot speak for the veracity of the study given such a development.
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> Obamacare is responsible for the drastic rise in healthcare costs anyhow.



really? how so? 

once again... your declaring yourself victor without actually saying anything doesn't count.

try again.


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## jillian (Jun 17, 2014)

Rambunctious said:


> It cost at least double today for me to cover my family than it did last year. That dang Bush!



no one believes that.

unless of course you had scam coverage before which only covered catastrophic care and now you have actual medical coverage.


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## Toro (Jun 17, 2014)

Having been in both the American and Canadian systems, I would rather be in the American system.

But if I were poor or lower middle class, I'd rather be in Canada.


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## jillian (Jun 17, 2014)

The Rabbi said:


> jillian said:
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so ezra klein and the people at Vox are crazy because you're too stupid to respond appropriately to anything that challenges your little rightwing fantasies.


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## jillian (Jun 17, 2014)

Toro said:


> Having been in both the American and Canadian systems, I would rather be in the American system.
> 
> But if I were poor or lower middle class, I'd rather be in Canada.



yes.

but i think it goes further than that. i don't consider a salary of six figures to be lower middle class, yet if there's a health crisis in the family, that income would be insufficient.

hence the problem


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## Plasmaball (Jun 17, 2014)

TemplarKormac said:


> Looks like this thread was dismantled in one post. Moreover, Vox appears to be a liberally slanted news site, jillian, simply by reading the headlines in the column on the right hand side of the screen and on the front page. How do you expect us to think this is article is honest?
> 
> I just finished the Commonwealth overview, and it blatantly calls for universal healthcare. Moreover, only comparing us to 11 countries is a sorry excuse regarding an abstract for a study on the quality of healthcare. So as it stands, the Commonwealth Fund is being used as a mouthpiece for Obamacare. I cannot speak for the veracity of the study given such a development.
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> Obamacare is responsible for the drastic rise in healthcare costs anyhow.



You didn't read it


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## jillian (Jun 17, 2014)

Plasmaball said:


> TemplarKormac said:
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> > Looks like this thread was dismantled in one post. Moreover, Vox appears to be a liberally slanted news site, jillian, simply by reading the headlines in the column on the right hand side of the screen and on the front page. How do you expect us to think this is article is honest?
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shocking but he got to say the word "obamacare" so he's happy

no one i know has found a "drastic rise" in anything... well, except the cost of college loans.


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## Stephanie (Jun 17, 2014)

don't like the health care here

move


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## AvgGuyIA (Jun 17, 2014)

Worst healthcare in the world is the reason people flock here for healthcare from all over the world.


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## francoHFW (Jun 17, 2014)

We changed your Pub scam of a system , hater dupes. If you don't like, YOU move, "no compromise, un-American TP GOP"- TIME...Pfffft!!


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## AvgGuyIA (Jun 17, 2014)

francoHFW said:


> We changed your Pub scam of a system , hater dupes. If you don't like, YOU move, "no compromise, un-American TP GOP"- TIME...Pfffft!!



   You funny.


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## bedowin62 (Jun 17, 2014)

o-Care is a trainwreck leftard; just like your brain is after years of defending Obama's failures


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## Stephanie (Jun 17, 2014)

francoHFW said:


> We changed your Pub scam of a system , hater dupes. If you don't like, YOU move, "no compromise, un-American TP GOP"- TIME...Pfffft!!



what do you care how ObamaCare is going to hurt people
I witnessed my 86year old mother's last year of her life under Medicaid being herded  like cattle from one place to next,  poking prodding and never could find the blood that was leaking into her stomach, transfusions every month and she has no veins so they stuck pic line in her neck until she finally died a miserable death suffering for two weeks from that dirty pic line they forgot to clean...

yea for socialist care


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## Statistikhengst (Jun 17, 2014)

jillian said:


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There you go. Indeed, that is half of the equation.


Like I said, I am gonna completely study the data and also research VOX - I believe this is actually part of the Luxembourgisch-TV Station with the same name. Follow the money trail.

But there cannot be a doubt that the US Health Care system lags sorely behind a number of others and Obamacare is the first step in fixing the problem.

No amount of RW bellyaching on this thread is going to change the fact that Obamacare is here to stay and that is, for the most part, a very good thing.


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## Anathema (Jun 17, 2014)

jillian said:


> what it measures is ACCESS. if you can't OBTAIN health care, then it doesn't matter how effective, safe, coordinated or patient-centered the care is.



jillian, I'm sorry to have to be the one to break this to you but health care is not a RIGHT in the United States. It never has been and hopefully never will be. Therefore "access" is something that is never likely to be where you want it to be. 

See, here in the United States health care is an INDUSTRY. It's a BUSINESS. Therefore, those things which do not make the doctors, clinics, and hospitals money are not going to be offered. I understand that you and many others don't like that idea, so I've got a potential fix to the problem....

Move to Canada or the UK or France, or whichever other country has the system you most prefer and leave us AMERICANS to our own devices.


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## Seawytch (Jun 17, 2014)

Toro said:


> Having been in both the American and Canadian systems, I would rather be in the American system.
> 
> But if I were poor or lower middle class, I'd rather be in Canada.



Well, I happen to put great store in American exceptionalism and I think we can set up our public/private system better than any other country. Better than Germany, better than Canada. It's just going to take us longer because we're younger.


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## Seawytch (Jun 17, 2014)

Anathema said:


> jillian said:
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You hope that access to lifesaving care is never a right in this country? Quite respectfully, I hope your hope dies on the vine.


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## Anathema (Jun 17, 2014)

Seawytch said:


> Well, I happen to put great store in American exceptionalism and I think we can set up our public/private system better than any other country. Better than Germany, better than Canada. It's just going to take us longer because we're younger.



It's also going to take longer because you've got people like ME and my family who will not take Government Health Care. We would rather DIE, thank you very much.


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## Anathema (Jun 17, 2014)

Seawytch said:


> You hope that access to lifesaving care is never a right in this country? Quite respectfully, I hope your hope dies on the vine.



You've got to PAY to PLAY. That's a very simple concept. If you cannot PAY, why would you expect someone to give you lunch, or housing, or anything else? Why is health care any different? 

Personally, I'd die before I take any Government Health Care. At least I'd go to my grave with a clear conscience.


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## Stephanie (Jun 17, 2014)

Seawytch said:


> Toro said:
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no, you put all your hope on a man called Obama...


so stop lying


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## Derideo_Te (Jun 17, 2014)

Stephanie said:


> francoHFW said:
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Sorry to hear about your mother, Stephanie.

But I have to ask the obvious question. 

What was stopping you from taking her to specialists and hospitals at your own expense if the "socialist care" was so "inferior" and they couldn't find the problem? There are plenty of excellent doctors and hospitals in the private sector in this nation. Why didn't you take your mother to one of those instead?


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## Seawytch (Jun 17, 2014)

Anathema said:


> Seawytch said:
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In my personal opinion, healthcare, like the defense of our nation, should not be a "for profit" industry. Insurance companies are not looking out for the interest of their consumers, of the patients, of Americans...they look out only for their shareholders. That amounts, again in my personal opinion, to profiteering. 

We have the best military in the world, right? That's what everyone says. Oddly enough, we have the best military in the world and it's not a business. It's not for profit. 

Now imagine that we were putting the amount of money into our military that we are, but instead of having the best military, we rank towards the bottom. THAT is our healthcare system and you're just fine with it, but what if it were our military?


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## Stephanie (Jun 17, 2014)

Derideo_Te said:


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I wished I could of


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## Seawytch (Jun 17, 2014)

Stephanie said:


> francoHFW said:
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I too am very sorry to hear that your mother suffered such treatment...however, the Affordable Care Act is not responsible nor is it "socialist" you do realize don't you? It's private insurance, not "government" care. 

The VA is "socialist" and "government care". Care at VA hospitals, when you can get it, is among the best in the country. Care received by VA patients and Medicare patients are _consistently _rated the best in the US in patient satisfaction surveys. 

So Steph, what would you like the option for your Mother on Medicare to have been? What would you like to see done to insure that people like your mother don't suffer under inadequate care?


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## francoHFW (Jun 17, 2014)

Sorry, hater dupes- you're ALREADY paying for everyone's health care, just in the stupidest, cruelest way possible, with 40k+ deaths....the courts have already ruled you can't be turned away from care, but no preventive care and bankruptcies is STUPID...


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## Derideo_Te (Jun 17, 2014)

Anathema said:


> jillian said:
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The Welfare of the People embraces Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness. Without affordable healthcare life is in jeopardy and the pursuit of happiness is not feasible for those who are sick.

So the right to Life means affordable healthcare. How many children would die from treatable conditions without affordable healthcare? Don't they have a right to Life in your opinion? 

What about those that are injured in the course of providing you with access to food, water, power, shelter, roads, etc? Must their Pursuit of Happiness be sacrificed on the alter of your regressive attitude? 

We the People get to decide whether we want affordable healthcare as a right. That is what forming a more perfect union is all about. We the People decide our own destiny though a government of the people and by the people. 

So you are entitled to your opinion but you alone don't get to decide what is and isn't a right that We the People can benefit from.


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## Derideo_Te (Jun 17, 2014)

Stephanie said:


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But what was stopping you? Why couldn't you?


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## francoHFW (Jun 17, 2014)

Sorry, Steph, but that could have happened with any form of payment, and at least it didn't bankrupt the whole family....with a real system.


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## Derideo_Te (Jun 17, 2014)

Seawytch said:


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To this day I still have a problem with the concept of a family having to make the choice between the health/life of their child and bankruptcy.


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## Redfish (Jun 17, 2014)

jillian said:


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Bullshit,  NO one in the USA was denied medical care before obamacare.  NO ONE.   Even those here illegally were treated and it was FREE.

Yes, if you were getting it free, it was a little more inconvenient---------BFD, thats how free stuff works.  

Obamacare has destroyed the good parts of american medical care and multiplied the bad parts---------oh, and it will cost more for everyone.   

the worst piece of legislation in the history of this nation.   YOu dems own it.


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## Redfish (Jun 17, 2014)

Derideo_Te said:


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No one in the USA was faced with that choice before ACA,  but many could be after ACA.

you dumb libs don't understand what your messiah has shoved up your asses.


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## Derideo_Te (Jun 17, 2014)

Redfish said:


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Too bad Redfish ignores all of those people who were denied medical care for "pre-existing conditions".


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## francoHFW (Jun 17, 2014)

Derideo_Te said:


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No longer have to, except in mindless red states for a little while longer...you're welcome...


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## Redfish (Jun 17, 2014)

Seawytch said:


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what I highlighted in red is the crux of socialist medicine.   We see it in the VA, and we will experience it under ACA if it is allowed to remain in force.

You get what you vote for.   You voted for obama and a dem controlled congress for obozo's first two years-----------you got the worst piece of legislation in our history and we will all suffer from your ignorance.


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## francoHFW (Jun 17, 2014)

O-Care may do away with crap policies and cost morons more, but finally the costs are in a down curve in future costs. This is the only period with any problems like that...


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## Derideo_Te (Jun 17, 2014)

Redfish said:


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Too bad your ignorance doesn't deal with reality. 

A child born with Cystic Fibrosis has a "pre-existing condition" and therefore the family cannot obtain coverage. The child needs to be hospitalized or it will die. They family could not afford the hospital bills without going into bankruptcy.

Just one scenario out of many that existed prior to the ACA outlawing the "pre-existing condition" denial of healthcare coverage.  Leukemia, diabetes, renal failure, heart conditions all were denied coverage. That was the reality that your short term memory cannot recall.


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## zeke (Jun 17, 2014)

Anathema said:


> jillian said:
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Hey dude, who were those regular American citizens that designed the for profit health care system that we now have? Was it you? I wan't consulted? Who was that you know?

Or are you just speaking out your ass when you imply that "us Americans" desire this convoluted for profit system that we have?


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## Redfish (Jun 17, 2014)

Derideo_Te said:


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Too bad you don't know the difference between insurance and medical care.   People with no insurance WERE and ARE receiveing treatment under medicaid, charities like St Jude, and in every ER in the country.   

Just because someone dies from a medical problem does not mean they did not receive treatment.   Medicine will not prevent any of us from eventually dying.


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## Stephanie (Jun 17, 2014)

francoHFW said:


> Sorry, hater dupes- you're ALREADY paying for everyone's health care, just in the stupidest, cruelest way possible, with 40k+ deaths....the courts have already ruled you can't be turned away from care, but no preventive care and bankruptcies is STUPID...



40,ooo death...now we get to pay for more DEATHS than that  since abortions will now be included, but you don't count them as potential human being do you?

and hey  guess what, WE ARE still paying for it for all as most of the ones signed up are being subsidized by TAXPAYERS under ObamaCare and we get the same system as what our VA is now going through

oh well right


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## Seawytch (Jun 17, 2014)

Redfish said:


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Millions of Americans were faced with that and still are...but fewer will because they now have _insurance _to cover their medical bills.

Medical bankruptcy is unheard of in other developed nations.


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## Seawytch (Jun 17, 2014)

Redfish said:


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Unfortunately, the ACA isn't socialist medicine...it's private insurance companies. 

The crux for *some *VA's is Congress's inability to pass funding for them to increase the number of hospitals and doctors needed to care for all the returning victims of Bush's unnecessary wars.


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## francoHFW (Jun 17, 2014)

Stephanie said:


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> > Sorry, hater dupes- you're ALREADY paying for everyone's health care, just in the stupidest, cruelest way possible, with 40k+ deaths....the courts have already ruled you can't be turned away from care, but no preventive care and bankruptcies is STUPID...
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Absolutely WRONG as usual. Abortions NOT covered.


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## Seawytch (Jun 17, 2014)

Seawytch said:


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## Stephanie (Jun 17, 2014)

Seawytch said:


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## Redfish (Jun 17, 2014)

Seawytch said:


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Don't be so naive.   ACA is socialized medicine.   The govt is funding it, they are just using the insurance companies as the paying mechanism.   Its a fraud, and you have bought into it.   Since you are so gullible, I have some beachfront property for sale, its kind of swampy, but you can easily convert it to a sandy beach full of condos.


"Bush's unnecessary wars"  love that talking point don't you?    Its total bullshit since both parties authorized and funded them.   Check you constitution, Bush or no president, could do that on his own-----------well, maybe obama could since he ignores the constitution.,


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## Redfish (Jun 17, 2014)

Seawytch said:


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Here's some truth for you, wytch.   Yes, there are lots of bankrupcies in the USA, and many of them have unpaid medical bills---------but only a tiny % of them go bankrupt because of medical bills.   the vast majority go bankrupt because of mortgages, car payments, credit cards, loss of a job, etc.    Most doctors and hospitals write off unpaid bills rather than spend the money trying to collect them.  

Once again, you repeat a left wing talking point that is based on a LIE.


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## Seawytch (Jun 17, 2014)

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## Seawytch (Jun 17, 2014)

Redfish said:


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No, the government isn't "funding it". Medicare was expanded in some states to help cover the cost of insuring the uninsured...which is cheaper than how their healthcare was previously delivered...in emergency rooms. 

Are you aware that the uninsured rate in Massachusetts is  now zero? I believe it is in Michigan where they now have a 95% insured rate in their state. The ACA is working as it was designed to. Could it be designed much better? Hell yes. It could include a public option. 

Yes, they were Bush's unnecessary wars. It was Bush's faulty intelligence that lied...oops, led...Congress into going along with the plan. It was ill conceived and a huge mistake. Isn't it about time to own up to it?


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## Derideo_Te (Jun 17, 2014)

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None as blind as those that refuse to see. Name one person without insurance prior to the ACA that received a life saving heart transplant from an ER. You can't because it never happened. The ER just patched them up and sent them back out to die at home when they got the ER bill.


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## Redfish (Jun 17, 2014)

Derideo_Te said:


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I personally know two people who received life saving double lung transplants and one who received life saving colon cancer surgery. none of them had insurance, none of them had any money.   

Your talking points are LIES.  

Those of us who pay, cover those who do not or cannot.   ACA only makes it more expensive for everyone, and will result in actual denial of care to those deemed too old or too sick.  

be careful what you wish for, you may get it.


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## Redfish (Jun 17, 2014)

Seawytch said:


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is the govt not funding it when they subsidize the premiums or put people on the medicaid list?

sure, some now have free insurance coverage------------free to them, not to us the taxpayers.   Nothing has changed, except now we also have to pay for a huge govt beaurocracy.   

the faulty intel was not "Bush's".   it was belonged to the CIA and FBI, as well as the UK's MI5 and others.   I did not realize how naive you are.


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## Derideo_Te (Jun 17, 2014)

Redfish said:


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I notice that you failed to state that they received those surgeries via the ER. Your lying by omission says volumes. 

Denial of healthcare was rampant before the ACA. With ACA coverage the healthcare can be provided without having to go to the ER. Problems can be treated at a fraction of the cost. The ACA is far from perfect but it is a massive improvement over the profit driven denial system that you supported.


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## Redfish (Jun 17, 2014)

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## Freewill (Jun 17, 2014)

I am not sure how people rate things I only know what effects me.  Most of the countries that are developed do not have the unique problems that face America. The biggest being an open border where thousands are pouring across the border bring who know what disease.  Use to be that immigrants would go through a medical examine and sent back if sick, not no more.

Also most countries are not the mix of race, color and creeds that is America. 

So I can only go by what I see for myself.

1.  I have a lot of access to healthcare whether I pay for it myself or am covered.  I can go to Walmart and receive care.  I called one convenience care place when I had an infected tooth because the dentists couldn't see me and they gave me better advice then did my dentist.

2.  Any care I have received, which isn't a whole lot, has gone without problem and within a reasonable time frame.  Those I know who had emergencies were seen quickly and treated effectively regardless of their health care coverage.

3. What I do see as a problem for me in the future is the out of control cost that Obamacare has cost ME.   I don't qualify for subsidizes, which is a good thing, so I am going to have to pay the full load because the company I work(ed) for is dropping me in 2015.  They say Obamacare will save me money, they lie it will be very expensive.

4.  What really is mind boggling is the cost of drugs, THIS is the real problem in my opinion.  Why Canada can sell the same drug for much less is a puzzle to me and why the government won't let a person mail order the drugs is also a puzzle.  Why one of the biggest expenses for the average Joe was not addressed by Obamacare is a crime.


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## The Rabbi (Jun 17, 2014)

Seawytch said:


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Weren't you touting how wonderful the VA was a few months ago?  That's your public health care.


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## Seawytch (Jun 17, 2014)

The Rabbi said:


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The VA is wonderful. It works fantastically when we don't have an obstructionist Congress blocking funding to hire more doctors and build more hospitals. 

Odd that Congress is willing to keep pushing equipment onto the military that it doesn't want, but can't find the money to pay for the healthcare they require when they come back from the wars they started.


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## Seawytch (Jun 17, 2014)

Redfish said:


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## Seawytch (Jun 17, 2014)

Redfish said:


> Seawytch said:
> 
> 
> > Stephanie said:
> ...


----------



## Bush92 (Jun 17, 2014)

insurance companies + doctors +lawyers = bad health care system.


----------



## The Rabbi (Jun 17, 2014)

Seawytch said:


> The Rabbi said:
> 
> 
> > Seawytch said:
> ...



That wonderful health care system is embroiled in scandal so deep the recent nominee withdrew rather than deal with it.  It has literally killed thousands of people.
The VA's budget has doubled in the last 5 years, so dont blame a stingy Congress.  No, the problem is socialized medicine.  And you want more of it.


----------



## Plasmaball (Jun 17, 2014)

AvgGuyIA said:


> Worst healthcare in the world is the reason people flock here for healthcare from all over the world.



They dont...


----------



## Plasmaball (Jun 17, 2014)

Stephanie said:


> francoHFW said:
> 
> 
> > We changed your Pub scam of a system , hater dupes. If you don't like, YOU move, "no compromise, un-American TP GOP"- TIME...Pfffft!!
> ...



No you didnt..no they didnt..


----------



## Redfish (Jun 17, 2014)

Seawytch said:


> Redfish said:
> 
> 
> > Seawytch said:
> ...


----------



## Plasmaball (Jun 17, 2014)

Anathema said:


> Seawytch said:
> 
> 
> > Well, I happen to put great store in American exceptionalism and I think we can set up our public/private system better than any other country. Better than Germany, better than Canada. It's just going to take us longer because we're younger.
> ...



I have no problem letting this happen..


----------



## sameech (Jun 17, 2014)

jillian said:


> > Five ways the American health care system is literally the worst
> >
> > The United States comes in dead last in a new, international ranking of health care systems from a top health-care non-profit.
> >
> ...



So this study effectively proves what I have said all along:  Americans like to bitch and complain about everything.


----------



## Derideo_Te (Jun 17, 2014)

Freewill said:


> I am not sure how people rate things I only know what effects me.  Most of the countries that are developed do not have the unique problems that face America. The biggest being an open border where thousands are pouring across the border bring who know what disease.  Use to be that immigrants would go through a medical examine and sent back if sick, not no more.
> 
> Also most countries are not the mix of race, color and creeds that is America.
> 
> ...



The exhorbitant cost of drugs goes back to Medicare Part D. The Republicans blocked the ability of the government to negotiate with Big Pharma for reduced drug prices. Every other nation negotiates for lower drug prices hence the reason why Canada can sell the same drug for less. 

The ACA partially remedied that problem although you might not see it directly. It is one of the biggest cost reductions for Medicare and Medicaid. If we had a Single Payer system that would allow the average Joe to obtain cheaper medications too. Unfortunately the ACA means that your private health insurer still gets to gouge you on medications.


----------



## Redfish (Jun 17, 2014)

Plasmaball said:


> AvgGuyIA said:
> 
> 
> > Worst healthcare in the world is the reason people flock here for healthcare from all over the world.
> ...



Oh, but they do.   Sick people come to the USA for medical care in droves.  Including illegals.   Do you ever hear of americans going to the UK or Canada for medical care?  Nope.   But we are trying to copy their failed systems.   amazingly stupid.


----------



## Plasmaball (Jun 17, 2014)

Stephanie said:


> Seawytch said:
> 
> 
> > Seawytch said:
> ...


----------



## Plasmaball (Jun 17, 2014)

Redfish said:


> Plasmaball said:
> 
> 
> > AvgGuyIA said:
> ...



But they also go abroad to have surgeries done because it's cheaper....I've been over this already with people.  People tend to come here because we have the best cancer treatments...people go abroad more for surgery. 

What might cost you 20000 here will cost you 4 thousand someplace else.


----------



## Redfish (Jun 17, 2014)

Derideo_Te said:


> Freewill said:
> 
> 
> > I am not sure how people rate things I only know what effects me.  Most of the countries that are developed do not have the unique problems that face America. The biggest being an open border where thousands are pouring across the border bring who know what disease.  Use to be that immigrants would go through a medical examine and sent back if sick, not no more.
> ...



Obama had control of congress for his first two years.  Why didn't he fix the big pharma drug rip off problem??????  

answer:  because they contributed too much to his campaign.

Wake the fuck up.   You lefties bitch about oil companies making 8% profit but you are silent when big pharma makes 35%.   hypocrisy.


----------



## Redfish (Jun 17, 2014)

Plasmaball said:


> Redfish said:
> 
> 
> > Plasmaball said:
> ...



If you want to have your kidney transplant done in Costa Rica, go right ahead.   But why not go to Canada or the UK?   they have the system that you want so badly.   Could it be that you might have to wait 6 months and might die first?   

I cannot believe the naivete of some of you libs.


----------



## JoeNormal (Jun 17, 2014)

jillian said:


> bripat9643 said:
> 
> 
> > jillian said:
> ...



Very true.  What the study really does is point out how many ticks and leaches there are in the American health care industry.  I mean when was the last time you got your lab results before you got the bill?


----------



## Redfish (Jun 17, 2014)

JoeNormal said:


> jillian said:
> 
> 
> > bripat9643 said:
> ...



Do you really think ACA wil change any of that?-----------can you say VA?

Do you really think that a govt beaurocracy will be better than the free market?


----------



## JoeNormal (Jun 17, 2014)

Redfish said:


> JoeNormal said:
> 
> 
> > jillian said:
> ...



I don't really expect the ACA to do much.  Obama should have stuck to his guns and pushed through single payer as was his original intention.  Too many special interests involved for that to have seen the light of day I guess.


----------



## Meister (Jun 17, 2014)

jillian said:


> > Five ways the American health care system is literally the worst
> >
> > The United States comes in dead last in a new, international ranking of health care systems from a top health-care non-profit.
> >
> ...



Ezra Klein? A PMSNBC analyst?  Got it


----------



## Harry Dresden (Jun 17, 2014)

jillian said:


> > Five ways the American health care system is literally the worst
> >
> > The United States comes in dead last in a new, international ranking of health care systems from a top health-care non-profit.
> >
> ...



wheres Chris?.....he says no one beats France....they did not fare to well in that thing either compared to everyone else.....we even came out better than them on a few categories....


----------



## jillian (Jun 17, 2014)

Redfish said:


> Seawytch said:
> 
> 
> > Redfish said:
> ...



that's false and not based on anything but wishful thinking.

more than 50% of the bankruptcies in the US are the result of unanticipated medical care, and, in fact, is the single largest cause of bankruptcy filings.

Medical Bills Are the Biggest Cause of US Bankruptcies: Study

Medical bills prompt more than 60 percent of U.S. bankruptcies - CNN.com

a large part of the reason for that is not just medical costs but our entire health care delivery system, with people losing coverage when they get sick because they can't work, so they are out of pocket for health care. that will, hopefully be helped some with the ACA and expanded medicare coverage (oh right... red states hate that).

but we're the only civilized nation that has this problem.

so now that you know this, you won't repeat that only a small percentage of bankruptcies are based on medical expenses, right?

and, no... most people do NOT file for bankruptcy because of mortgages. you're simply making that up.


----------



## Howey (Jun 17, 2014)

jillian said:


> > Five ways the American health care system is literally the worst
> >
> > The United States comes in dead last in a new, international ranking of health care systems from a top health-care non-profit.
> >
> ...



We've proven it before. The VA system, once one gets in, is far superior to any hospital.

Which reminds me...


----------



## ClosedCaption (Jun 17, 2014)

Stephanie said:


> don't like the health care here
> 
> move



Dont like the govt 



move


----------



## jillian (Jun 17, 2014)

Meister said:


> jillian said:
> 
> 
> > > Five ways the American health care system is literally the worst
> ...



yes, we know... he's actually smart so you hate him. and how dare he publish information.

now run along and listen to sarah bawwacuda


----------



## jillian (Jun 17, 2014)

Redfish said:


> JoeNormal said:
> 
> 
> > jillian said:
> ...



the ACA SHOULD say that.

the VA works when the patients are admitted. want more efficient admissions tell your idiot rightwingers to stop cutting discretionary spending and taxes for rich people.

and I understand that you can't respond to any of this except by repeating things you heard rush limbot say. but maybe if righties actually gave it the old college try they might come up with actual ideas. come on... give it the old college try.


----------



## Redfish (Jun 17, 2014)

jillian said:


> Redfish said:
> 
> 
> > Seawytch said:
> ...



more lies, but if you choose to believe them, go right ahead.

There are virtually no US bankrupcies SOLELY caused by medical bills,   Just because a bankrupcy filing includes unpaid medical bills does not prove that the bankrupcy was CAUSED by medical bills.

you have bought into the left wing lies about this.   If you choose to remain ignorant, do so at your peril.   I could not care less what you believe.


----------



## Samson (Jun 17, 2014)

Statistikhengst said:


> I downloaded the full report and will study it first. Others can do likewise:
> 
> http://www.commonwealthfund.org/~/m...rt/2014/jun/1755_davis_mirror_mirror_2014.pdf
> 
> ...



Kosher did the study we find?
 [MENTION=46168]Statistikhengst[/MENTION]
The study was conducted by 

_The Commonwealth Fund is a private foundation that promotes a high performance health care system providing better access, improved quality, and greater efficiency. The Fund&#8217;s work focuses particularly on society&#8217;s most vulnerable, including low-income people, the uninsured, minority Americans, young children, and elderly adults.
The Fund carries out this mandate by supporting independent research on health care issues and making grants to improve health care practice and policy. An international program in health policy is designed to stimulate innovative policies and practices in the United States and other industrialized countries.​_
I wonder if stimulating innovative policies and practices requires more public funding.....

hmmmmmmm?


....would ranking the USA below any other nation would stimulate more public funding? Would more public funding grow, or shrink government?


I'm not certain why the Commonwealth Fund doesn't simply call the report: The USA: A Nation that should spend more money on healthcare because we compared them with UK, a much smaller nation with completely different demographics and found that the UK spends LESS per capita!!!


----------



## JoeNormal (Jun 17, 2014)

jillian said:


> Redfish said:
> 
> 
> > JoeNormal said:
> ...



College try?  They don't need no stinkin' college.


----------



## Harry Dresden (Jun 17, 2014)

jillian said:


> Rambunctious said:
> 
> 
> > It cost at least double today for me to cover my family than it did last year. That dang Bush!
> ...



why Jillian?.....i know a guy who's premiums and deductible have gone up quite a bit.....is that just a scam?....my premium went up 1200 a year as of Jan 1st....and usually with federal workers nothing changes until the new contracts are negotiated....not this time apparently...


----------



## Redfish (Jun 17, 2014)

jillian said:


> Redfish said:
> 
> 
> > JoeNormal said:
> ...





Want some ideas that would actually work?

1. allow interstate competition between insurance companies
2. tort reform, limit malpractice awards and make the looser pay all court and lawyer costs
3. shorten drug patents to 3 years and get cheap generics in the system faster
4. stop wasteful defensive medicine by reforming malpractice laws
5. stop giving free treatment to illegals, give them life saving treatment only and then send them home
6. require insurance companies to take people with pre-existing conditions and eliminate life maximum payments.
7. fully fund medicare advantage, it works and saves money for the govt and the people
8, Fully repeal ACA


OK, there are 8 that would actually work.   Putting the entire country under a VA-like system with insurance companies as the payment vehicle will never work.


----------



## Misty (Jun 17, 2014)

My healthcare has always been very good. My insurance company has always taken people with existing conditions and I've never had to wait in the emergency room. 

You can find good healthcare if you take time to research it. People need to realize that they can make their lives good all by themselves. It just takes a little effort.


----------



## Toro (Jun 17, 2014)

jillian said:


> Toro said:
> 
> 
> > Having been in both the American and Canadian systems, I would rather be in the American system.
> ...



I had better healthcare here when I didn't make six figures. 

I think the middle class is generally better served by the American system. For the lower middle class and the poor, I don't think that's true.


----------



## jillian (Jun 17, 2014)

Misty said:


> My healthcare has always been very good. My insurance company has always taken people with existing conditions and I've never had to wait in the emergency room.
> 
> You can find good healthcare if you take time to research it. People need to realize that they can make their lives good all by themselves. It just takes a little effort.



yokie dokie


----------



## Harry Dresden (Jun 17, 2014)

francoHFW said:


> We changed your Pub scam of a system , hater dupes. If you don't like, YOU move, "no compromise, un-American TP GOP"- TIME...Pfffft!!



Frankie....shut the fuck up.....if anyone is a hater here....its you....you prove it with just about every post.....


----------



## jillian (Jun 17, 2014)

JoeNormal said:


> jillian said:
> 
> 
> > Redfish said:
> ...



I actually had a 21 year old idiot on another board tell me he didn't go to college because he didn't want to be taught by "liberals". he earned $8,000 a year, refused to go on his parents' health care when the law allowed him to stay on til he was 26 (because he didn't want any part of "obamacare") and couldn't afford his own health care, wouldn't take medicare and couldn't afford a car to go to work so walked miles... 

but he had money for pot.

so there ya go.


----------



## ClosedCaption (Jun 17, 2014)

jillian said:


> Misty said:
> 
> 
> > My healthcare has always been very good. My insurance company has always taken people with existing conditions and I've never had to wait in the emergency room.
> ...



Ignorance is bliss.

She doesnt know it sucks compared to other nations therefore its awesome


----------



## Redfish (Jun 17, 2014)

jillian said:


> Misty said:
> 
> 
> > My healthcare has always been very good. My insurance company has always taken people with existing conditions and I've never had to wait in the emergency room.
> ...



translation =  I am too ignorant to shop for my own insurance or make my own decisions, I want to depend to the government to care for me, feed me, tell me how to live, and when to die.    you are a liberal through and through, jilly.   pathetic.


----------



## jillian (Jun 17, 2014)

Samson said:


> Statistikhengst said:
> 
> 
> > I downloaded the full report and will study it first. Others can do likewise:
> ...



they are probably JUST the people to do that study since their goal is to see that people DO have health coverage.... not being vested in any particular means of seeing that happens.


----------



## The Rabbi (Jun 17, 2014)

"Studies" like this are always amusing.  THe formula is simple. Stack the deck in advance by picking some criteria you know the uS will do poorly in.  Extra points if those criteria are subjective and hard to measure.  Use something like "patient satisfaction with hospital food" as one measure. Do the study.  Write the report, funded by interested parties. Then publicize it as "US HealthCare System Failing Badly!"
And then watch rubes like Jillian fall for it.


----------



## Anathema (Jun 17, 2014)

Seawytch said:


> In my personal opinion, healthcare, like the defense of our nation, should not be a "for profit" industry. Insurance companies are not looking out for the interest of their consumers, of the patients, of Americans...they look out only for their shareholders. That amounts, again in my personal opinion, to profiteering.



That is called BUSINESS. The Military-Industrial complex is most definitely a For-Profit business. The US Army, Navy, Air Force, Marines, and Coast Guard aren't, but unless you're going to Nationalize the health care industry, you're comparing apples and oranges.




Derideo_Te said:


> We the People get to decide whether we want affordable healthcare as a right. That is what forming a more perfect union is all about. We the People decide our own destiny though a government of the people and by the people.
> 
> So you are entitled to your opinion but you alone don't get to decide what is and isn't a right that We the People can benefit from.



No, I don't get to decide. Our Founding Fathers decided it for us when they wrote the US Constitution, which does not have ANY mandate for Government involvement in health or medical issues. You the People get to change that only IF and WHEN you ammend the US Constitution. Anything else (like the ACA) is not only illegal, but immoral.


----------



## Redfish (Jun 17, 2014)

jillian said:


> Samson said:
> 
> 
> > Statistikhengst said:
> ...





OK, one more time,  try to pay attention, read each word slowly and carefully

not having insurance does NOT mean you don't have healthcare.   NO ONE in the USA was being denied healthcare before ACA.   NO ONE.  

There was no crisis in healthcare.   It was a made up crisis aimed at ramming more socialism up the asses of american citizens.   

It was part of obozo's plan to "fundamentally transform" the USA.   You libs just sit there grinning as more and more of your rights and freedoms are taken away.   You are too stupid to realize that once they are gone, you can't get them back.


----------



## peach174 (Jun 17, 2014)

We would have the best Health Care in the entire world if the Feds would get their damn noses out it.


----------



## jillian (Jun 17, 2014)

peach174 said:


> We would have the best Health Care in the entire world if the Feds would get their damn noses out it.



they had their noses out of it.


----------



## jillian (Jun 17, 2014)

Redfish said:


> jillian said:
> 
> 
> > Samson said:
> ...



i'd suggest you worry about your own reading skills since you can't seem to even spell PRESIDENT OBAMA'S name properly.

(I put that in caps btw... because I know it upsests Obama deranged wackos)

as for the rant about rights and freedoms. blah blah blah blah blah. more rightwingnut talking points.

you're really boring. and the more frustrated become, the more you seem to rely on what the blogosphere tells you.

it's funny.


----------



## Harry Dresden (Jun 17, 2014)

Stephanie said:


> francoHFW said:
> 
> 
> > We changed your Pub scam of a system , hater dupes. If you don't like, YOU move, "no compromise, un-American TP GOP"- TIME...Pfffft!!
> ...



yea i know what you mean....my wife and her mother have the same kind of Arthritis .....her mother seems to get half-assed care from Medicare about relieving her problem while the wife has had things done by Blue Cross at St.Joes med Center that Medicare wont do for the Mo in law at Loma Linda Med Center....and we have asked them why.....it is too expensive so she has to just do what they will do for her which stops short of a few treatments that the wife has had and so far they have worked.....


----------



## The Rabbi (Jun 17, 2014)

jillian said:


> peach174 said:
> 
> 
> > We would have the best Health Care in the entire world if the Feds would get their damn noses out it.
> ...



Which decade was that in? Not since WW2 at best.
 nutter


----------



## Anathema (Jun 17, 2014)

zeke said:


> Hey dude, who were those regular American citizens that designed the for profit health care system that we now have? Was it you? I wan't consulted? Who was that you know?
> 
> Or are you just speaking out your ass when you imply that "us Americans" desire this convoluted for profit system that we have?



The Founding Fathers, when they chose to leave any mention of a mandate for Government involvement in health care or medicine. The idea that everyone deserves to be treated is a very recent idea.... it was only enacted into law in the 1980's by supposedly (but not really) Conservative Ronald Reagan. At the founding of this nation there were no "Public" hospitals or clinics. There were private doctors and if you couldn't pay, you didn't get treated. Very simple.




Bush92 said:


> insurance companies + doctors +lawyers = bad health care system.



Add the Government into the equation, even if you subtract the insurance companies and you get a result that's even worse.




Plasmaball said:


> I have no problem letting this happen..



See, but your cohorts do. That's why my mother had to spend 10 minutes arguing with a paramedic about my father's DNR order the day he died, and why I have the same issues with most hospitals on those rare occasions that I get admitted..... Far too many people believe that if there is an option to "help" it should be required to be undertaken, no matter what the patient actually wants.


----------



## Harry Dresden (Jun 17, 2014)

Anathema said:


> jillian said:
> 
> 
> > what it measures is ACCESS. if you can't OBTAIN health care, then it doesn't matter how effective, safe, coordinated or patient-centered the care is.
> ...



so there can be no tweaking of the "non money making" things so they are there for those who need them?......


----------



## ClosedCaption (Jun 17, 2014)

jillian said:


> peach174 said:
> 
> 
> > We would have the best Health Care in the entire world if the Feds would get their damn noses out it.
> ...



And it was awesome...Sorry I mean it was awe...ful


----------



## Harry Dresden (Jun 17, 2014)

Seawytch said:


> Toro said:
> 
> 
> > Having been in both the American and Canadian systems, I would rather be in the American system.
> ...



well i agree there.....this country has always been able to rise to the top when it needed too....but you need a leader for that to happen.....we dont have any leaders around....


----------



## 1776 (Jun 17, 2014)

Shitstain....the sheer number of people in this country that need to be serviced is a negative against our healthcare system from the start compared to other countries not named India and China.

Sooooooo how do China and India stack up to the US??? Do Americans go there for care or the other way around?

Shut the fuck up, shit eater.



jillian said:


> > Five ways the American health care system is literally the worst
> >
> > The United States comes in dead last in a new, international ranking of health care systems from a top health-care non-profit.
> >
> ...


----------



## Harry Dresden (Jun 17, 2014)

Derideo_Te said:


> Stephanie said:
> 
> 
> > Derideo_Te said:
> ...



$$$$$.....


----------



## peach174 (Jun 17, 2014)

jillian said:


> peach174 said:
> 
> 
> > We would have the best Health Care in the entire world if the Feds would get their damn noses out it.
> ...



No they didn't.
We had a endless list of laws a regulations in Health Care that has become even bigger thanks to ACA.
We have the VA, Medicare and Medicaid. Planned Parenthood.
We should never even have a Federal Department of Health and Human Services.
We should have State Run health services.
No where in our Constitution does it say our Government has the right to run health care.


----------



## Harry Dresden (Jun 17, 2014)

Seawytch said:


> Redfish said:
> 
> 
> > Derideo_Te said:
> ...



you sure?..... the original Drummer for Iron Maiden had to have a few Benefit Concerts to help pay for his Medical Bills because of the MS he had...he is from England for those who dont know....


----------



## Meister (Jun 17, 2014)

jillian said:


> Meister said:
> 
> 
> > jillian said:
> ...


Ideology is everything to you, darlin'.  It doesn't have to be right as long as it's liberal.
You wouldn't know "smart" if it bitch slapped you in the face.

Klein is just another leftwing ideologue that skews the numbers to make them support his premise.  The rightwingers will do the same thing and is why I don't post polls, because a person needs to know the context of the questions.
Something that a "Lawyer" seems to think isn't important.  Funny what you call smart


----------



## Harry Dresden (Jun 17, 2014)

Seawytch said:


> Redfish said:
> 
> 
> > Seawytch said:
> ...



unnecessary wars?.....so were you another one of the 10% who was against us going into Afghanistan?....if so what do you think our response should have been?...


----------



## Harry Dresden (Jun 17, 2014)

Howey said:


> jillian said:
> 
> 
> > > Five ways the American health care system is literally the worst
> ...



and we have been through this before also.....in another thread that you ran from when you had a few links coming at you that you could not refute.....some Sheriff you are....


----------



## Howey (Jun 17, 2014)

Harry Dresden said:


> Howey said:
> 
> 
> > jillian said:
> ...



Ran from? lol

Either participate intelligently and disprove the facts or call mommy for help.

VA Care: Still the Best Care Anywhere? by Phillip Longman | Political Animal | The Washington Monthly


----------



## Harry Dresden (Jun 17, 2014)

Misty said:


> My healthcare has always been very good. My insurance company has always taken people with existing conditions and I've never had to wait in the emergency room.
> 
> You can find good healthcare if you take time to research it. People need to realize that they can make their lives good all by themselves. It just takes a little effort.



Group plans have always taken pre-existing conditions as far as i know...


----------



## Harry Dresden (Jun 17, 2014)

jillian said:


> JoeNormal said:
> 
> 
> > jillian said:
> ...



sounds more like a bunch of bull to push some buttons......


----------



## Howey (Jun 17, 2014)

Harry Dresden said:


> Misty said:
> 
> 
> > My healthcare has always been very good. My insurance company has always taken people with existing conditions and I've never had to wait in the emergency room.
> ...




You obviously know very little.


----------



## Redfish (Jun 17, 2014)

Harry Dresden said:


> Misty said:
> 
> 
> > My healthcare has always been very good. My insurance company has always taken people with existing conditions and I've never had to wait in the emergency room.
> ...



true,  you only got into that if you tried to buy an individual policy.   I see that our gay poster has already made a fool of himself on this,  but he is wrong.


----------



## Howey (Jun 17, 2014)

jillian said:


> JoeNormal said:
> 
> 
> > jillian said:
> ...



Sounds like [MENTION=1528]Yurt[/MENTION] le


----------



## Harry Dresden (Jun 17, 2014)

Howey said:


> Harry Dresden said:
> 
> 
> > Howey said:
> ...



like you did?....you ran from the fucking thread Howey....and there was a couple of  posters at the end of it wondering were you went...they are probably still wondering....


----------



## Harry Dresden (Jun 17, 2014)

Howey said:


> Harry Dresden said:
> 
> 
> > Misty said:
> ...



my wife has been an Epileptic since 1979.....i have switched Ins companies at work 4 or 5 times....she was never refused....so apparently you dont know very much do ya.....some fucking sheriff you are....


----------



## Derideo_Te (Jun 17, 2014)

Anathema said:


> Seawytch said:
> 
> 
> > In my personal opinion, healthcare, like the defense of our nation, should not be a "for profit" industry. Insurance companies are not looking out for the interest of their consumers, of the patients, of Americans...they look out only for their shareholders. That amounts, again in my personal opinion, to profiteering.
> ...



The Welfare of the People clause covers healthcare!

Your inability to comprehend the Constitution doesn't negate that the government was given the power to do what is in the best interests of We the People. Healthcare is constitutional and the SCOTUS agreed.

Your whining won't change any of that.


----------



## peach174 (Jun 17, 2014)

Seawytch said:


> Redfish said:
> 
> 
> > Seawytch said:
> ...



How much more funding do you want. We are already taxed out to the max.

The Feds spend 1.8 Trillion in Health Care and Welfare.

We spent 6.3 Trillion in 2014
We spent 3 Trillion in 2008.
It just keeps going up and up.
This has got to stop.

We spend 20% on Health Care
We spend 13% on Defense.
Defense for the Feds is in our Constitution 
Welfare and Health Care are not.
The private sector can handle the expense much better the Feds who are robbing us blind from both parties.


Government Spending in United States: Federal State Local for 2014 - Charts Tables History


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## Anathema (Jun 17, 2014)

Harry Dresden said:


> so there can be no tweaking of the "non money making" things so they are there for those who need them?......



There can be no power exerted by the Government which forces medical facilities or practitioners to accept less money than they expect for any procedure or medication. 

IF a medical professional or care center chooses to service people without compensation or with lower than normal payment that is their right, but they should never be forced to do so.


----------



## Harry Dresden (Jun 17, 2014)

Redfish said:


> Harry Dresden said:
> 
> 
> > Misty said:
> ...



he is a fucking jerk....said he is the new Sheriff and nothing will go by him .....yea until something comes along that puts a dent in what the new Sheriff said....


----------



## Anathema (Jun 17, 2014)

Derideo_Te said:


> The Welfare of the People clause covers healthcare!
> 
> Your inability to comprehend the Constitution doesn't negate that the government was given the power to do what is in the best interests of We the People. Healthcare is constitutional and the SCOTUS agreed.



Where is this "Welfare of the People" clause? Are you referring to the "General Welfare and Common Defense" language of Article I, Section 8? If so, then you have no idea what you're talking about. That language refers to the Welfare and Defense of the NATION, not its individual citizens AND more importantly, the limitations and description of what that entails is laid out in the 18 specific items listed further on in that Section; none of which refer to medicine, medical care, or health.



Derideo_Te said:


> Your whining won't change any of that.



No, but my rifle will, along with the rifles of a whole lot of other frustrated people in this country. If things are not straightened out in due course, this may well be an issue that could again cause revolution, like the illegal imposition of Federal laws onto States did in 1861.


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## Plasmaball (Jun 17, 2014)

Redfish said:


> Plasmaball said:
> 
> 
> > Redfish said:
> ...



Neat...This meme..


----------



## Derideo_Te (Jun 17, 2014)

Anathema said:


> Derideo_Te said:
> 
> 
> > The Welfare of the People clause covers healthcare!
> ...



Your ignorance of the Constitution is your problem.

As far as your insurrectionist sedition and delusions of resurrecting slavery are concerned you are in the wrong thread. Start your own instead of derailing the OP.


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## Anathema (Jun 17, 2014)

Derideo_Te said:


> Your ignorance of the Constitution is your problem.



No, my knowldege of the Constitution is my problem. It creates a situation where I cannot make the words on that Founding Document agree with the society, government, and nation I happen to live in.


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## jillian (Jun 17, 2014)

Anathema said:


> Derideo_Te said:
> 
> 
> > Your ignorance of the Constitution is your problem.
> ...



what politicians of their age said is less important than the caselaw construing it since the words have little meaning absent judicial construction.

the "founding fathers" also believed women shouldn't have the vote, and slavery was peachy keen.

they disagreed on most things. the courts during their lifetime didn't necessarily rule in their favor since they knew they were just politicians and didn't deify them.

and yes, you are ignorant of the constitution which provides that taxes may be levied for the general welfare of the people. you seem to have missed a few things in your zeal to misread the second amendment.

if only you were so literal with the words "well-regulated militia" since for over 200 years until scalia and his wingers, no justice ever believed the second created a private right of ownership.


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## kiwiman127 (Jun 17, 2014)

Toro said:


> Having been in both the American and Canadian systems, I would rather be in the American system.
> 
> But if I were poor or lower middle class, I'd rather be in Canada.



Considering that around 80% of the US population is either middle class or poor, your statement speaks volumes and in volumes.
It also amazes me that we have people here are content to pay the highest prices in the world by far for a healthcare system that's just adequate.  These same folks have no problem with how much healthcare in the US is eating up our GDP.  It's also hurting our economy, individuals, families and businesses.  Anyone want to explain why that's all OK?  Anyone?
To the poster that claimed that Obamacare is responsible for the high cost, Obamacare has been in effect just a short period. From 1999 to 2009 healthcare insurance rose 131% and that's before Obamacare.  In real life, this past year the cost of healthcare insurance had one of it's smaller increases.


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## Anathema (Jun 17, 2014)

jillian said:


> what politicians of their age said is less important than the caselaw construing it since the words have little meaning absent judicial construction.



BULLSHIT!! The words have total meaning. The problem is that you people don't want to read what was written, but rather what you want it to mean.



jillian said:


> the "founding fathers" also believed women shouldn't have the vote, and slavery was peachy keen.



Both of which ARE the correct beliefs on those topics.


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## Dont Taz Me Bro (Jun 17, 2014)

jillian said:


> what it measures is ACCESS.



Wasn't that the whole point of the costly ObamaCare boondoggle you people continue insisting we need?


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## Samson (Jun 17, 2014)

Toro said:


> jillian said:
> 
> 
> > Toro said:
> ...



I once had pink eye in Canada. As a Yank, I had to fork over $100, but got the see one of the 50 Punjabi Physicians working at the store-front clinic right away. [MENTION=2926]Toro[/MENTION]


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## 1776 (Jun 17, 2014)

The scum behind these bogus polls/stories put "access" above quality and wait times. 

They feel if everyone in the nation can see a doctor sometime within the year aka spreading the pain and misery to everyone, that is better than the US system where people with money/insurance get timely and quality care and the poor without money/insurance get the leftovers in Medicaid or ER invasions.


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## Derideo_Te (Jun 17, 2014)

Anathema said:


> jillian said:
> 
> 
> > what politicians of their age said is less important than the caselaw construing it since the words have little meaning absent judicial construction.
> ...



The 2nd Amendment "as written" requires gun owners to belong to a well ordered militia. Unless you and every other gun owner belongs to a well ordered militia you and they are in violation of your interpretation of the Constitution.


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## Anathema (Jun 17, 2014)

Derideo_Te said:


> The 2nd Amendment "as written" requires gun owners to belong to a well ordered militia. Unless you and every other gun owner belongs to a well ordered militia you and they are in violation of your interpretation of the Constitution.



I most definitely AM a member of a well regulated militia (not well ordered, please learn to read English) as defined in the 18th Century. In that day and age all males above the age of 16 were deemed to be members of the militia. Well regulated meant that the individuals trained and practiced regularly with their arms. I shoot probably somewhere betwen 300 and 500 rounds a month from a variety of arms. I also actively read and discuss military tactics, theory, and maneuver with others. 

As I said, it would help if you people learned to actually read the language of the document you are talking about.


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## Freewill (Jun 17, 2014)

Why is it that liberals seem, no they do, to take great pride in tearing down the USA on almost every subject?

The Iraq war.

The Afghanistan war.

Our Health Care.

How a soldier that went AWOL is treated

The military

Abortion

Religion

The list is freanin' endless.  Next time any subject is posted note which side automatically picks the side that makes America look bad.


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## Freewill (Jun 17, 2014)

Derideo_Te said:


> Anathema said:
> 
> 
> > jillian said:
> ...



The NRA is a well regulated militia.  I do believe that a militia is not a requirement.  For example, say this was 1776 and all the guns in America were confiscated, could a well regulated militia then be formed?  Hell no.  So in order to form a militia, well regulated, the people had to have arms, that is not to be infringed.


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## Freewill (Jun 17, 2014)

Anathema said:


> Derideo_Te said:
> 
> 
> > The 2nd Amendment "as written" requires gun owners to belong to a well ordered militia. Unless you and every other gun owner belongs to a well ordered militia you and they are in violation of your interpretation of the Constitution.
> ...



Home Land security would like your phone number.


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## Derideo_Te (Jun 17, 2014)

Anathema said:


> Derideo_Te said:
> 
> 
> > The 2nd Amendment "as written" requires gun owners to belong to a well ordered militia. Unless you and every other gun owner belongs to a well ordered militia you and they are in violation of your interpretation of the Constitution.
> ...



You endorse slavery and denying women the right to vote. Your opinion on what constitutes a "well regulated" militia is probably as bogus as your interpretation of the constitution.

BTW how much healthcare would your family enjoy if you didn't waste your money on 300 to 500 rounds every month?


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## Freewill (Jun 17, 2014)

Derideo_Te said:


> Anathema said:
> 
> 
> > Derideo_Te said:
> ...



Saying that the constitution allows for citizens to bare arms in a well regulated militia but otherwise no?  Isn't that the same as telling people they can from a baseball team but they just can't own bats, balls and gloves to do so.


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## Howey (Jun 17, 2014)

Harry Dresden said:


> Howey said:
> 
> 
> > Harry Dresden said:
> ...



Blame this forum for allowing multiple threads on same subjects. I never run from threads. I will, however, leave a thread when it's obvious I'm speaking to brick walls.



Harry Dresden said:


> Howey said:
> 
> 
> > Harry Dresden said:
> ...



Changed your tune huh? Yes, some HUGE group plans may accept prior conditions and they're few. That's why Obamacare was created. And you failed to add you paid out of your ass for that coverage.


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## Howey (Jun 17, 2014)

jillian said:


> Anathema said:
> 
> 
> > Derideo_Te said:
> ...



These idiotic teabaggers amuse me. Wanna carry a gun like you think the founding fathers wanted?

Go buy a fucking musket tard!


----------



## Toro (Jun 17, 2014)

kiwiman127 said:


> Toro said:
> 
> 
> > Having been in both the American and Canadian systems, I would rather be in the American system.
> ...



I think the middle class in America has better healthcare than the middle class in Canada.


----------



## Anathema (Jun 17, 2014)

Freewill said:


> Home Land security would like your phone number.



I'm quite sure they already have it along with my address, email, and everything else you can think of. If not, they're slacking.




Derideo_Te said:


> You endorse slavery and denying women the right to vote. Your opinion on what constitutes a "well regulated" militia is probably as bogus as your interpretation of the constitution.



What part of the Constitution is contrary to either/both of those things?



Derideo_Te said:


> BTW how much healthcare would your family enjoy if you didn't waste your money on 300 to 500 rounds every month?



I reload a lot of the ammo, so the cost isn't that extreme. Besides, it allows me to customize the ammo a bit more. I pay about $250 a month for health insurance, add about $40 a month for medications and another $25 for doctor's visits, bringing the total to about $315 a month. That's roughly one day's pay for me, so it's not a terribly significant amount of money, thank you very much. Besides, given the choice, I'd take that $315 and put it into more ammo rather than the health care.


----------



## Toro (Jun 17, 2014)

Samson said:


> Toro said:
> 
> 
> > jillian said:
> ...



There are some things that are better in Canada than in the US. For example, my wife once took our infant son to outpatients in Canada for a cold, and the total bill was less than our co-pay in the US.


----------



## francoHFW (Jun 17, 2014)

Same old brainwashed Pubcrappe from the chumps of the greedy idiot rich GOP...WE'RE ALREADY PAYING FOR EVERYONE'S CARE, JUST IN THE STUPIDEST, CRUELEST, MOST EXPENSIVE WAY POSSIBLE, DINGBATS. WITH 45 K DEAD...


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## Anathema (Jun 17, 2014)

francoHFW said:


> ...WE'RE ALREADY PAYING FOR EVERYONE'S CARE, JUST IN THE STUPIDEST, CRUELEST, MOST EXPENSIVE WAY POSSIBLE, DINGBATS. WITH 45K DEAD...



Then I have a solution..... Stop paying for care of people who can't pay themselves. We should be able to at least triple that 45,000 number in the first year.


----------



## Rambunctious (Jun 17, 2014)

jillian said:


> Rambunctious said:
> 
> 
> > It cost at least double today for me to cover my family than it did last year. That dang Bush!
> ...



Well that's just plain silly. Come on Jill you seem to believe anything you're told by the liar and chief. I'm hurt.


----------



## Stephanie (Jun 17, 2014)

jillian said:


> Meister said:
> 
> 
> > jillian said:
> ...



wow jilly, and you talk about people using right wing sites

Ezra Klein, his education is in medical, medicine, he's a doctor, professor?




> Klein in October 2008
> 
> 
> Born
> ...



now run along and listen to Rachel Maddcow


----------



## jillian (Jun 17, 2014)

Anathema said:


> BULLSHIT!! The words have total meaning. The problem is that you people don't want to read what was written, but rather what you want it to mean.



you can spew all you want... but we live in a common law system where caselaw has equal weight with statute and establishes precedent. 

there is no meaning to "DUE" process absent caselaw.

there is no meaning to "equal protection" absent caselaw.

again... why aren't you demanding that guns are only in possession of those who are part of a *well regulated* militia (that doesn't mean thugs with guns on a ranch in AZ).



> Both of which ARE the correct beliefs on those topics.



only if you're a troll or a moron.

I do believe you're a double threat in that regard.


----------



## jillian (Jun 17, 2014)

Rambunctious said:


> jillian said:
> 
> 
> > Rambunctious said:
> ...



if you mean the president, he and I have never had a conversation. so I haven't been told anything by him. 

I am always skeptical. but the rightwingnuts here are so Obama deranged that it's not like we can have an actual discussion about actual policy.

don't feel hurt. here. have a cookie.


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## Samson (Jun 17, 2014)

jillian said:


> Anathema said:
> 
> 
> > BULLSHIT!! The words have total meaning. The problem is that you people don't want to read what was written, but rather what you want it to mean.
> ...



The evidence is indisputable.


----------



## JoeNormal (Jun 17, 2014)

Freewill said:


> Why is it that liberals seem, no they do, to take great pride in tearing down the USA on almost every subject?
> 
> The Iraq war.
> 
> ...



If we're against the USA, it's only because over the last 30 or 40 years, it's become a wholly owned subsidiary of mega-corporations and the rich.


----------



## jasonnfree (Jun 17, 2014)

Redfish said:


> jillian said:
> 
> 
> > bripat9643 said:
> ...



Nobody was denied life threatening medical care before ACA you should say.  Routine medical care, and important preventive care, has always cost money in this country.  Democrats have tried since WW2 to have a national health care like other first world countries, but "right to life" republicans have always fought.  We wouldn't even have social security if the people hadn't run the republicans out of D.C. in the 30's so FDR could push it through.


----------



## jasonnfree (Jun 17, 2014)

Anathema said:


> Derideo_Te said:
> 
> 
> > The Welfare of the People clause covers healthcare!
> ...



So there.  It always goes back to that damn freeing of the slaves!!!!  I knew it.  Taking the slaves, who were rightfully the property of their masters, who paid good money for them, and setting them free. Then allowing them to read, vote, have to pay them for their labor.  Just ain't right.  Nothing in the constitution about setting slaves free either.


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## bedowin62 (Jun 17, 2014)

jasonnfree said:


> Redfish said:
> 
> 
> > jillian said:
> ...





you silly idiot; all you have done is succeeded in making things worse

oh yea and Social Security and the other entitlement programs have over $100 TRILLION in unfunded mandates


good jobs; because you "CARE"


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## bedowin62 (Jun 17, 2014)

IF YOU  invested the same amount of money you were forced to contribute to Social Security you would have possibly millions over a working lifetime; and the government could always have had a fund for people who lost their retirement money in downturns; which has happened like 5 times; there's been about 5 down years in the history of the stock market


----------



## Statistikhengst (Jun 17, 2014)

Samson said:


> Statistikhengst said:
> 
> 
> > I downloaded the full report and will study it first. Others can do likewise:
> ...





Definitely one way to look at it, no doubt. No, I haven't read it all yet, I have too much to do professsionally right now, but I will read it all.

As I wrote in my posting to Jillian, I question EVERY study and look for internals for saying much of anything about said study.  It may, however, be kosher if you just swing it over your head three times.

However, the one point that [MENTION=3135]jillian[/MENTION] made was especially strong and poignant, namely, that before people start screaming that the study is endorsing socialism or some such bullshit, the idea that measuring access to health care is indeed important, because if people have no good access to health care, then it doesn't matter a hill of beans what the quality of said care is.

If you do swing the study three times around your head, watch out for the sharp paper edges. 

 [MENTION=21821]Samson[/MENTION]


----------



## Stephanie (Jun 17, 2014)

Derideo_Te said:


> Anathema said:
> 
> 
> > Derideo_Te said:
> ...



no you're twisting of what the general welfare of people in the constitution mean,  is ignorant
sorry but I had to say that
the Federal government was never meant to be our nanny, mommie or daddies


----------



## Derideo_Te (Jun 17, 2014)

Stephanie said:


> Derideo_Te said:
> 
> 
> > Anathema said:
> ...



Not in the least!

Let's just take a look at the Defense budget in real terms. Not just the amount allocated but also the corporate welfare, the interest on the National Debt for unfunded weapons and wars, the pension obligations to veterans, the whole package. 

That equates to roughly 27% of the entire budget. Do you believe that the Founding Fathers ever imagined spending one out of every four dollars on the military? Did they foresee the US having the ability to strike anyone, anywhere on the entire planet? 

Of course they didn't! 

But you accept that massive spending as though it is was meant to be what was intended for the Federal government. That somehow the FF's were prescient enough to believe that 200+ years into the future that America would be the world's policeman. 

If you accept that the Federal government has the right to tax you and your children for a military that far exceeds the actual needs to defend this nation then you are in no position to deny the Federal government the right to provide healthcare.

Both cost money and both are in the Constitution. 

There is far less justification for a military budget that is more than the combined total of the next 10 nations spending than there is for healthcare.






Not when there are schools, roads and bridges that are in disrepair. 

This is about priorities!


----------



## Harry Dresden (Jun 17, 2014)

Derideo_Te said:


> Anathema said:
> 
> 
> > jillian said:
> ...



..ist part mentions "Militia" 2nd part "People"....who are those people?....


----------



## Meister (Jun 17, 2014)

Derideo_Te said:


> Stephanie said:
> 
> 
> > Derideo_Te said:
> ...



General Welfare was not meant for a certain individual or a certain group of people, it was meant for all....not what you wingnuts morphed it.  Just sayin.....


----------



## Harry Dresden (Jun 17, 2014)

Howey said:


> Harry Dresden said:
> 
> 
> > Howey said:
> ...


* I will, however, leave a thread when it's obvious I'm speaking to brick walls.*

you were not speaking to brick walls Howey.....you said something ...people countered what you said.....i was one of them.....but no Howey......you ran from the thread because you were proved wrong.....

*Changed your tune huh? *

how did i change my tune Howey?.....and dont run away here i wanna know how i changed my tune.......

*And you failed to add you paid out of your ass for that coverage*

sorry Howey i paid the exact same as anyone else on the plan for family coverage........you really dont know very much do ya Sheriff?...


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## Derideo_Te (Jun 17, 2014)

Meister said:


> Derideo_Te said:
> 
> 
> > Stephanie said:
> ...



The ACA covers the entire population of the USA.


----------



## Listening (Jun 17, 2014)

Am I wrong in stating that the other ten countries in the study have Universal Health Care ?


----------



## Meister (Jun 17, 2014)

Derideo_Te said:


> Meister said:
> 
> 
> > Derideo_Te said:
> ...


That has nothing to do with how our FF framed "General Welfare".
No doubt the liberals of today have most of them rolling in their grave.


----------



## Luddly Neddite (Jun 17, 2014)

Harry Dresden said:


> jillian said:
> 
> 
> > JoeNormal said:
> ...



We have one like that on this board. 

And, I've recently written about another one I know. 

Lazy RWs want it given to them. They don't want to work for anything. And they sure as hell don't want to work for an education.


----------



## Derideo_Te (Jun 17, 2014)

Meister said:


> Derideo_Te said:
> 
> 
> > Meister said:
> ...



Since you failed to provide any substantiation for your allegation it is null and void.


----------



## Derideo_Te (Jun 17, 2014)

Luddly Neddite said:


> Harry Dresden said:
> 
> 
> > jillian said:
> ...



Ever notice that it is immigrants that want to come here and work hard for an education for their children?


----------



## Luddly Neddite (Jun 17, 2014)

peach174 said:


> We would have the best Health Care in the entire world if the Feds would get their damn noses out it.



WTH are you talking about?

The feds never had "their noses in it". 

Oh wait ... This is another of those things that were perfect until Obama was elected. Right?


----------



## Luddly Neddite (Jun 17, 2014)

Derideo_Te said:


> Luddly Neddite said:
> 
> 
> > Harry Dresden said:
> ...



While those RWs whose descendents came here several generations ago hate the educated lefty elitists and think a fat pay check should be handed to them.

Yep.


----------



## initforme (Jun 17, 2014)

The simple question is where is the GOP alternative for people to look at as far as health care?   Crickets.


----------



## Luddly Neddite (Jun 17, 2014)

initforme said:


> The simple question is where is the GOP alternative for people to look at as far as health care?   Crickets.



Its exactly like their plan for illegals, gitmo, Iraq, jobs, infrastructure, education, energy ...


----------



## Derideo_Te (Jun 17, 2014)

Luddly Neddite said:


> initforme said:
> 
> 
> > The simple question is where is the GOP alternative for people to look at as far as health care?   Crickets.



But that happened when Obama was elected. Just months after the election we had Swine flu!


----------



## Listening (Jun 17, 2014)

initforme said:


> The simple question is where is the GOP alternative for people to look at as far as health care?   Crickets.



The simple answer has always been  the market.

So....the alternative is to get Obama and the state regulators out of the system (except for a few key points), and allow things to settle out.

The left simply can't take this because it forces people to be good consumers.  And because some won't become good consumers (or will just sit down, do nothing, and whine), the rest of us are saddled with them.

But the alternative has always been there and it is a good alternative.

Nobody answered my question about the other ten systems.

I am pretty sure that the other ten are UHC systems (although I know several of those countries have large private components too....you know...something you pay for out of your own pocket).

Comparing them to the U.S. is stupid.

We don't have a homogeneous system.  I have fantastic health care and always have had in spite of the fact that there have been times where my budget was very tight.

I would also add that pre-existing conditions (which I am torn on) and the ability to drop somone (which I totally disagree with as I see it as a contract violation....how can they take your money for fifteen years and then drop you.....I've never understood that) were allowed under HEAVY GOVERNMENT REGULATION.  Kansas has an Insurance Commissioner (which allowed this happen under Sebelius' watch).  

Will someone tell me how we needed Obummercare to get this under control when it was happening all over the place (red and blue) ?


----------



## Luddly Neddite (Jun 17, 2014)

Derideo_Te said:


> Luddly Neddite said:
> 
> 
> > initforme said:
> ...



And, since we had never before had swine flu,

ITS OBAMA'S FAULT!!!


----------



## alan1 (Jun 17, 2014)

jillian said:


> bripat9643 said:
> 
> 
> > jillian said:
> ...


I have health insurance.  My eldest daughter has health insurance.  My youngest daughter and her new husband have health insurance.
None of us have ever been denied access to healthcare.

My eldest daughter's boyfriend hasn't had health insurance for the seven years I've known him.  He has Crohns disease, which means he requires more healthcare than the other four of us combined.  He's never been denied access to healthcare, in spite of the fact that he never pays his healthcare bills.  Never denied, never pays.

My sister works as a nurse in California.  She says they never deny anybody healthcare.  Ever.  Even homeless people or drug addicts that they know will not pay the bill are treated.

If the article says that access to healthcare isn't available, it's a lie.  Hospitals are not legally allowed to deny healthcare to a person needing healthcare.

The premise of the ACA was that everybody would have insurance, in fact, the law now makes it mandatory to have health insurance.  They told us that somewhere between 35-50 million people (depends upon which liberal media source you get info from) were without health insurance, but that the ACA would fix that.  The ACA is now claiming success because 8 million people signed up.  My math says that 8 million is a heck of a lot less than 35-50 million.  Add in the fact that some of those 8 million were forced into the ACA when their current health insurance policies were cancelled.  The ACA didn't solve a damn thing.

I have a solution though.

For all you people that think the ACA is such a great thing, lets keep it.  But at the same time, let's allow doctors and hospitals to refuse service (medical care) to those that ignore the law requiring them to have health insurance.  Let's treat it like auto insurance.  If I don't have auto insurance (as required by law) and I get into a wreck, no auto repair shop is forced to fix my car without payment.  I say we do the same thing with medical care.  If I need medical care, but I don't have medical insurance (as required by law), why should any doctor treat me?  Let hospitals and doctors refuse treatment.  Put that practice into place and you will find a lot more people willing to purchase health insurance.

I'm sure some will call me a cold hearted bastard for proposing that medical care givers be allowed to refuse treatment to those that cannot pay.  But you know what, the law now requires them to carry insurance, if they choose not to do so, that's their choice, screw them, let 'em die.  It's their choice and their responsibility and their consequences.


----------



## Statistikhengst (Jun 17, 2014)

Listening said:


> Am I wrong in stating that the other ten countries in the study have Universal Health Care ?



Will need to check that, but they probably do. Germany, GB and France definitely do.


----------



## jillian (Jun 17, 2014)

Stephanie said:


> Derideo_Te said:
> 
> 
> > Anathema said:
> ...



not even a little bit, steffie. there has always been disagreement on these issues... even back when the constitution was ratified.

so i always find it amusing when someone like you says "this is what it says" "this is what it means".

when the reality is there is over 200 years of decisions governing constitutional construction. so to ignore that is kind of incomprehensible.


----------



## Meister (Jun 17, 2014)

Derideo_Te said:


> Meister said:
> 
> 
> > Derideo_Te said:
> ...


I hope this helps substantiate my allegation and give you a needed education.....apparently.
general welfare
What does the General Welfare Clause really mean? | Constitution Mythbuster
The General Welfare Clause | from Reason to Freedom
Does the "General Welfare Clause" Of The U.S. Constitution Authorize
Madison on the Meaning of the ?General Welfare,? the ?Purpose? of Enumerated Powers, and the ?Definition? of Constitutional Government
The General Welfare Clause | Intellectual Takeout (ITO)


----------



## bripat9643 (Jun 17, 2014)

Derideo_Te said:


> Stephanie said:
> 
> 
> > Derideo_Te said:
> ...



Defense is 18% of the budget, not 27% of the budget, so right off the bat we know you are full of shit.  Whenever a libturd posts a figure on this website, it's almost guaranteed to be a lie.  You can never take anything a libturd says at face value.  You have to operate on the premise that they are nothing by servile lying toadies.


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## jillian (Jun 17, 2014)

bripat9643 said:


> Derideo_Te said:
> 
> 
> > Stephanie said:
> ...



your source for that number?


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## jillian (Jun 17, 2014)

Meister said:


> Derideo_Te said:
> 
> 
> > Meister said:
> ...



the founding fathers didn't AGREE on the clause. they had disparate views like today's politicians.

but thanks. i prefer not to have my policy initiatives be based on mores from more than 200 years ago.... especially when our laws don't require that.


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## Meister (Jun 17, 2014)

jillian said:


> Stephanie said:
> 
> 
> > Derideo_Te said:
> ...



With all due respect...
 "Enumerated Powers"  from our very wise and intelligent Founding Fathers.


They knew eventually the nuts would come out of the woodwork.

They didn't create the constitution to be a willy nilly piece of paper, and that's why they came up with Enumerated Powers to keep the power of the feds in check.


----------



## jillian (Jun 17, 2014)

initforme said:


> The simple question is where is the GOP alternative for people to look at as far as health care?   Crickets.



their alternative is to deregulate everything and divest everyone of the benefits of citizenship so everyone lives like they did in dickensian england... except they want to be firing guns at their neighbors.


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## Meister (Jun 17, 2014)

jillian said:


> Meister said:
> 
> 
> > Derideo_Te said:
> ...



Oh....I'm sure YOU DON'T want YOUR policy initiatives based on the constitution.  I have no doubt about that at all.


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## Peach (Jun 17, 2014)

Luddly Neddite said:


> initforme said:
> 
> 
> > The simple question is where is the GOP alternative for people to look at as far as health care?   Crickets.
> ...



*&$# @$!  If you can term that a plan.........................


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## TemplarKormac (Jun 17, 2014)

jillian said:


> initforme said:
> 
> 
> > The simple question is where is the GOP alternative for people to look at as far as health care?   Crickets.
> ...



Funny how you two keep forgetting this:

A Serious GOP Alternative to Obamacare | The American Spectator

And these:

Seriously? The Republicans Have No Health Plan? - Forbes


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## Statistikhengst (Jun 17, 2014)

Meister said:


> jillian said:
> 
> 
> > Stephanie said:
> ...




Indeed, those same very wise and intelligent Founding Fathers, who also made a way for the Constitution to be amended as needed, realizing that it was not a holy writ.

Yes, those Founding Fathers.

Thanks for your support in this matter, [MENTION=17949]Meister[/MENTION]!


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## jillian (Jun 17, 2014)

Statistikhengst said:


> Meister said:
> 
> 
> > jillian said:
> ...



more than that... they said the taxing and spending clause is for the general welfare. it isn't that complex.


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## Meister (Jun 17, 2014)

Statistikhengst said:


> Meister said:
> 
> 
> > jillian said:
> ...



No shit, sherlock.  Please explain for all of us what the procedure is to amend the constitution?  Hmmmm 
When jumping through all the hoops it wouldn't be willy nilly, would it stat?

But, thank you for your thought.  Always appreciated [MENTION=46168]Statistikhengst[/MENTION]


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## Plasmaball (Jun 17, 2014)

Meister said:


> Derideo_Te said:
> 
> 
> > Meister said:
> ...



yeah i doubt it.


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## Meister (Jun 17, 2014)

jillian said:


> Statistikhengst said:
> 
> 
> > Meister said:
> ...


What you consider is General Welfare, is not the same as what the FF's General Welfare.
What can I say..wingnuts always change the definition to fit their premise.


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## Plasmaball (Jun 17, 2014)

Meister said:


> jillian said:
> 
> 
> > Statistikhengst said:
> ...



and your general welfare is not the same as the founders.


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## Meister (Jun 17, 2014)

jillian said:


> Statistikhengst said:
> 
> 
> > Meister said:
> ...



general welfare was never for picking and choosing individuals or a group of certain people.
general welfare was for ALL, and it was never set up to take from one group and give to another group.  Well, maybe in the twisted minds of lawyers....but not from the FF's.


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## Meister (Jun 17, 2014)

Plasmaball said:


> Meister said:
> 
> 
> > jillian said:
> ...



What???


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## Plasmaball (Jun 17, 2014)

Meister said:


> Plasmaball said:
> 
> 
> > Meister said:
> ...



read this slowly. your opinion on general welfare is not the same as the founders you moronic twat.


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## Meister (Jun 17, 2014)

Plasmaball said:


> Meister said:
> 
> 
> > Plasmaball said:
> ...



You don't even know my opinion, I was just stating the FF's position.  Shows what little you know.  Hey....are you dot com's sock?  You're posting just like her.


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## alan1 (Jun 17, 2014)

initforme said:


> The simple question is where is the GOP alternative for people to look at as far as health care?   Crickets.



Questions are always easy.  Answers tend to be more difficult.
I am unsure why liberals usually seem to think that the government holds a viable solution since their track record has been abysmal.  
For example, 40 years of the war on poverty has resulted in a poverty rate almost the same today as it was 40 years ago.
For example, 30 years of the war on drugs has resulted in the rate of drug use remaining almost the same.
For example, 40 years of affirmative action has resulted in black student college graduation rates remaining about the same.

Thinking that the government, be it Dem or Rep, is going to solve stuff for you is foolish.
Same old song, just a different piano player.
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HVKtL9VU8rQ]Billy Joel "Pianoman" Original Video - YouTube[/ame]


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## billdad19912114 (Jun 17, 2014)

Our friends and family know we come from a generation that is living soul , and the best healthcare if our American family's was to die was to go to the eye doctor and the hospital even the dentist and get x rays. I like it when king tut obama give x rays on obama care , it helps us a lot I got mine at rush hospital city of Chicago.


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## HelenaHandbag (Jun 17, 2014)

initforme said:


> The simple question is where is the GOP alternative for people to look at as far as health care?   Crickets.


Check your premise, Jimminy Cricket.

What makes it incumbent upon anyone else to come up with a stupid government program, to supplant another stupid government program?


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## PredFan (Jun 17, 2014)

Not this stupid shit again. I know liberals aren't smart but how many times do we have to debunk this nonsense?


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## alan1 (Jun 17, 2014)

HelenaHandbag said:


> initforme said:
> 
> 
> > The simple question is where is the GOP alternative for people to look at as far as health care?   Crickets.
> ...



Stupid government programs are always the solution to solve previous stupid government programs that have failed.
Just ask a liberal if you don't believe me.


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## GWV5903 (Jun 17, 2014)

jillian said:


> > Five ways the American health care system is literally the worst
> >
> > The United States comes in dead last in a new, international ranking of health care systems from a top health-care non-profit.
> >
> ...



UHC Propaganda 101...

If you admit this are you afraid you will turn into a frog?


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## Harry Dresden (Jun 17, 2014)

Luddly Neddite said:


> Harry Dresden said:
> 
> 
> > jillian said:
> ...



lots of lazy "LWs" too .....ill say it because you would never say that...


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## Anathema (Jun 18, 2014)

jasonnfree said:


> So there.  It always goes back to that damn freeing of the slaves!!!!.....



Actually in my mind the much greater travesty and much more damaging act was the freeing of the women in the early 20th Century. 

I have no issue with the concept of slavery, though I am opposed to it based solely on race. On the other hand I have a significant issue with allowing women to be involved in society as they are now, no matter what their age, race, or social status is.


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## Statistikhengst (Jun 18, 2014)

Anathema said:


> jasonnfree said:
> 
> 
> > So there.  It always goes back to that damn freeing of the slaves!!!!.....
> ...




Ok, that was weird.


----------



## Harry Dresden (Jun 18, 2014)

Anathema said:


> jasonnfree said:
> 
> 
> > So there.  It always goes back to that damn freeing of the slaves!!!!.....
> ...



geezus....go find the Doctor and ask him to drop you off in 1650......


----------



## boedicca (Jun 18, 2014)

The NIH is great, as long as you don't mind dying.

_*The only serious black mark against the NHS was its poor record on keeping people alive.* On a composite "healthy lives" score, which includes deaths among infants and patients who would have survived had they received timely and effective healthcare, the UK came 10th. _

NHS is the world's best healthcare system, report says | Society | The Guardian


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## Listening (Jun 18, 2014)

Meister said:


> Plasmaball said:
> 
> 
> > Meister said:
> ...



It is so sad when we have people like Schillian and Spamaball pontificating on the USC.

If they have kids...they'll be screwed up for sure.

Add "The font of all knowledge" to that list. (Deridio_Te)


----------



## Derideo_Te (Jun 18, 2014)

Meister said:


> Derideo_Te said:
> 
> 
> > Meister said:
> ...



Extremist RW bloggers are not a source of education, they are a source of disinformation and partisan demagoguery.


----------



## Derideo_Te (Jun 18, 2014)

Statistikhengst said:


> Anathema said:
> 
> 
> > jasonnfree said:
> ...



Anathema is a self confessed wife beater.


----------



## Meister (Jun 18, 2014)

Derideo_Te said:


> Meister said:
> 
> 
> > Derideo_Te said:
> ...


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## bripat9643 (Jun 18, 2014)

Derideo_Te said:


> Meister said:
> 
> 
> > Derideo_Te said:
> ...



How ironic.


----------



## TooTall (Jun 18, 2014)

Derideo_Te said:


> Redfish said:
> 
> 
> > jillian said:
> ...



Medical care was not denied for "pre-existing conditions," insurance companies just didn't pay for it.


----------



## Harry Dresden (Jun 18, 2014)

TooTall said:


> Derideo_Te said:
> 
> 
> > Redfish said:
> ...



the ones me and the wife had over the last 30 years did....


----------



## Anathema (Jun 19, 2014)

Harry Dresden said:


> geezus....go find the Doctor and ask him to drop you off in 1650......



Actually, if he's going that way, I'd really prefer about 1250AD, but who's to quibble over a couple hundred years; since it would only be a matter of a couple years before I was dead in either time period.


----------



## Redfish (Jun 19, 2014)

TooTall said:


> Derideo_Te said:
> 
> 
> > Redfish said:
> ...





OK, one more time-------------Not       having      insurance      does      not     mean     you      did      not      get     treatment.  


Uninsured people received medical care before obamacare,  NO    ONE    WAS    DENIED    MEDICAL     TREATMENT     BEFORE      ACA.      NO    ONE.


There was no healthcare crisis in the USA that mandated destroying the entire system.


----------



## Derideo_Te (Jun 19, 2014)

Redfish said:


> TooTall said:
> 
> 
> > Derideo_Te said:
> ...



The healthcare system was not "destroyed" by the ACA and yes, there was a crisis.

If you could not afford the healthcare expenses out of pocket that your greedy profit obsessed HMO denied as being a "pre-existing condition" then it was the same thing as being denied treatment. When your choice is food or medication you choose food. Medical treatments that cost tens of thousands of dollars were the number one cause of bankruptcies.


----------



## RDD_1210 (Jun 19, 2014)

Redfish said:


> TooTall said:
> 
> 
> > Derideo_Te said:
> ...



Thanks for letting us all know how clueless you are.


----------



## Listening (Jun 19, 2014)

Derideo_Te said:


> Redfish said:
> 
> 
> > TooTall said:
> ...



The only crisis that existed was for a small group of people who wanted affordable health care, but could not "afford" it based on the government protected health insurance industry.

So the answer was to give  the health industry more protection and pull all of us into what was a very localized issue.

You dorks are amazing.


----------



## Listening (Jun 19, 2014)

RDD_1210 said:


> Redfish said:
> 
> 
> > TooTall said:
> ...



Thank you for not breeding.


----------



## RDD_1210 (Jun 19, 2014)

Listening said:


> Derideo_Te said:
> 
> 
> > Redfish said:
> ...



Hahah, is this serious???


----------



## Darkwind (Jun 19, 2014)

jillian said:


> bripat9643 said:
> 
> 
> > jillian said:
> ...


A flat out lie.  Every American has access to healthcare.  No medical facility can turn a person away on the basis of anything.

Care is not measured by access.  It is measured by outcome.

We rank # 1 in the world.

Too bad for you little hate America thread.


----------



## Listening (Jun 19, 2014)

RDD_1210 said:


> Listening said:
> 
> 
> > Derideo_Te said:
> ...



I know this must be painful for you.

However, there is a cure.  

It starts with you getting your head pulled out of Ed Shultz's ass.


----------



## Derideo_Te (Jun 19, 2014)

Darkwind said:


> jillian said:
> 
> 
> > bripat9643 said:
> ...



Please provide a list of all those who turned up at the ER needing a heart transplant in order to survive and received one without any insurance or the ability to pay for it.


----------



## RDD_1210 (Jun 19, 2014)

Listening said:


> RDD_1210 said:
> 
> 
> > Listening said:
> ...



Who? 

So does this mean your previous statement was in fact serious? 

Really???


----------



## Listening (Jun 19, 2014)

RDD_1210 said:


> Listening said:
> 
> 
> > RDD_1210 said:
> ...



Do you want to continue to look stupid or do you want to address the point ?

Why don't you start with this thread, which the left never touched in spite of repeated requests and bumps.

Be my guest.

http://www.usmessageboard.com/polit...nest-people-point-the-errors-in-my-facts.html


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## RDD_1210 (Jun 19, 2014)

Listening said:


> RDD_1210 said:
> 
> 
> > Listening said:
> ...



Hahahah, did you really just link to a healthmyths thread???

Hahhahahahahahahahahaha!!!!

Holy shit, thanks for making my day.

Let me guess, next you want to know why nobody takes ChessWarNow seriously either. 

Sorry bout that! 

hahahahahaha


----------



## Listening (Jun 19, 2014)

RDD_1210 said:


> Listening said:
> 
> 
> > RDD_1210 said:
> ...



I "don't want to know" anything about ChessWarNow.

However, I am quite aware of the fact that most see you has a thin fingernail smarter than Chris (the board moron).

I'd say you were sorry alright.  

When you want to address the point, let me know.


----------



## RDD_1210 (Jun 19, 2014)

Listening said:


> RDD_1210 said:
> 
> 
> > Listening said:
> ...



Hahahahaha, sure. Just wait here and hold your breath. I'll address his amazing point momentarily.


----------



## Listening (Jun 19, 2014)

RDD_1210 said:


> Listening said:
> 
> 
> > RDD_1210 said:
> ...



Give me a moment to alert the board.  

After all, this will be the first time you've addressed *anything*.


----------



## RDD_1210 (Jun 19, 2014)

Listening said:


> RDD_1210 said:
> 
> 
> > Listening said:
> ...



At the same time, alert the board how you shouldn't even be on this site after you agreed to ban yourself when Obama was reelected. Yet, here you are trolling away. Why is that?

Oh I know, you are not honest and have zero integrity. You must be proud.


----------



## Listening (Jun 19, 2014)

RDD_1210 said:


> Listening said:
> 
> 
> > RDD_1210 said:
> ...



You are still batting 1000.


----------



## RDD_1210 (Jun 19, 2014)

Listening said:


> RDD_1210 said:
> 
> 
> > Listening said:
> ...



You know thats a good thing, right? 

So....um, thanks.


----------



## Redfish (Jun 19, 2014)

Derideo_Te said:


> Redfish said:
> 
> 
> > TooTall said:
> ...





Bullshit------nothing but dem/lib/socialist LIES.


----------



## Derideo_Te (Jun 19, 2014)

Redfish said:


> Derideo_Te said:
> 
> 
> > Redfish said:
> ...



Too bad you couldn't refute any of them with credible links.


----------



## GHook93 (Jun 19, 2014)

Statistikhengst said:


> I downloaded the full report and will study it first. Others can do likewise:
> 
> http://www.commonwealthfund.org/~/m...rt/2014/jun/1755_davis_mirror_mirror_2014.pdf
> 
> ...



I agree we should exam the study and neither side should jump to it too quickly. The left should be so quick to believe with out skepticism and the right should be so quick to dismiss.

Personally I think there is a lot of merit to attacking our system pre and post Obaminationcare!


----------



## GHook93 (Jun 19, 2014)

Rambunctious said:


> It cost at least double today for me to cover my family than it did last year. That dang Bush!



True Obaminationcare wasn't the answer, but neither was status quo.


----------



## depotoo (Jun 19, 2014)

Who founded this organization? None other than an Obama crony-

David Blumenthal, MD, came to his latest job just after it became a whole lot busier.When President Obama on March 20 (2009) appointed Dr. Blumenthal, 60, to be the national health information technology coordinator, it was barely a month after the enactment of a federal stimulus package that included about $19 billion in net Medicare and Medicaid incentives for electronic health records adoption.


----------



## Listening (Jun 19, 2014)

GHook93 said:


> Statistikhengst said:
> 
> 
> > I downloaded the full report and will study it first. Others can do likewise:
> ...



How do you compare a partially regulated and corrupt system like ours to countries that have socialist (not a bad word) health care ?  

There is no comparison.  To be meaningful, you'd need the public and private component of each system.  I know Canada has a large private health care sector....how do you distinguish ?

We are also much larger than these countries.  If you broke it down into regions, would it matter ?  Could you find sections of the country that look better than Denmark (a country that might be a bit bigger than Kansas, but half the size of Chicago) ?

Have a good time.


----------



## Listening (Jun 20, 2014)

GHook93 said:


> Rambunctious said:
> 
> 
> > It cost at least double today for me to cover my family than it did last year. That dang Bush!
> ...



Correct,

The GOP blew it in the early 90's by not addressing the issue.

Hillarycare was Ready Fire Aim.

The GOP just put the rifle down.



RDD_1210 said:


> Listening said:
> 
> 
> > RDD_1210 said:
> ...



You know it could mean you are wrong 100% of the time too.  But, I guess you'll learn.

I noticed, you didn't address any of the points that have been made.

Typical.


----------



## jillian (Jun 20, 2014)

Redfish said:


> Derideo_Te said:
> 
> 
> > Redfish said:
> ...



poor clueless thing... typical brainwashed wackadoodle low information voter. but no doubt you think you're actually saying something when you spew.

now go wipe the spittle off of your chin.


----------



## Meister (Jun 20, 2014)

jillian said:


> Redfish said:
> 
> 
> > Derideo_Te said:
> ...


Were you going to make a point, or were you just trolling your own thread?


----------



## RDD_1210 (Jun 20, 2014)

Listening said:


> GHook93 said:
> 
> 
> > Rambunctious said:
> ...



I also noticed you don't honor your agreements. 

Typical.


----------



## Listening (Jun 20, 2014)

RDD_1210 said:


> Listening said:
> 
> 
> > GHook93 said:
> ...



And you still haven't addressed the point.

Still batting 1000.


----------



## Noomi (Jun 20, 2014)

jillian said:


> > Five ways the American health care system is literally the worst
> >
> > The United States comes in dead last in a new, international ranking of health care systems from a top health-care non-profit.
> >
> ...



It is the worst because it sends people bankrupt.


----------



## Cecilie1200 (Jun 20, 2014)

jillian said:


> bripat9643 said:
> 
> 
> > jillian said:
> ...



Well, let's just define "access", shall we?  Today I had what is a very normal spread of calls for my typical workday.  

1)  There was the gentleman with the 1199/SEIU coverage (I absolutely cringe when I see that come up in the header) who wanted to know why his "very important; I need it to live" medication was going to cost him $260.  I explained that it was a quite new drug, a brand-name without a generic equivalent, and because of its newness on the market, it currently appeared on his insurance provider's formulary as non-preferred, which would probably change when it had been around longer and the effects had been observed more.  He informed me that that was "Crazy!  How can a medication cost that much!"  I told him that the medication actually costs quite a bit more, when you considered the part the insurance was covering, and that many brand-names cost more than that.  He then asked, "Well, why is the insurance company making me pay so much of it?  You don't understand, I NEED this drug, so why does it cost me so much?"  I think you just answered your own question, dummy.

2)  There was the gold-standard call - it wouldn't be my workday without at least one of these gems.  Guy took his prescription for Cialis to the local pharmacy to be filled, and they filled it . . . for half the quantity it was written for.  When he asked them why they didn't give him the full amount, they told him that the claim had been rejected by the insurance company for any quantity over what they gave him.  I explained that his insurance company has a quantity exception for Cialis - which is the norm among insurance companies - and in order for them to pay for his full prescription, his doctor would have to request a prior authorization.  He gave me the answer I could hear coming a mile away:  "Where does the insurance company get off overruling my doctor and telling me what drugs I can take?"  My standard, memorized response:  "They aren't telling you what drugs you can take.  You are welcome to purchase whatever quantity out of your own pocket that you like.  They are, however, declining to pay for any more than this amount without your doctor explaining the clinical necessity for it."  The hard truth is, if you turn over responsibility for paying your bills to someone else, you also turn over the right to dictate what you get to that payer.

3)  Just recently, United Parcel Service's union renegotiated their contract, and they were forced to face the hard truth:  there ain't no such thing as a free lunch.  UPS is done giving their employees a platinum-plated free ride, and downgraded to gold plate instead.  They imposed an incredibly nominal deductible, and a modest schedule of flat copayments depending on whether the drug is preferred, non-preferred or generic.  When I say "modest", we're talking in the range of $5-10 for a 90-day supply of generic meds through the mail.  Most of our members would kill to have their own policies be that inexpensive to them.  Nevertheless, I have learned to cringe when I see UPS come up in the insurance header, too, because these people are INCENSED at the idea that they now are required to take on a VERY SLIGHTLY larger share of their own health costs.  Don't even talk to me about premiums.  Most of the people I talk to are on long-term medications like insulin, a cocktail of blood pressure and cholesterol pills, antidepressants and nerve medications, or all of the above.  Their insurance companies are paying more for their meds every month than they are paying for their premiums, with no doubt.

Every single one of the people I talk to has "access" to medical care and medications; if they didn't, I wouldn't be talking to them, because my company is employed by their insurance companies.  People without health insurance have no reason to call me at all.  But THEY think they don't have access, because they are defining "access" as "I do squat and someone else provides everything for me because I deserve it".


----------



## Listening (Jun 21, 2014)

Noomi said:


> jillian said:
> 
> 
> > > Five ways the American health care system is literally the worst
> ...



No, it doesn't.

People bankrupt themselves.  

BTW: The average bankruptcy (which is all or partially driven by health care costs) is about the cost of a good used car (20 grand).  

Seems to me that people need to pay their bills.  Declaring bankruptcy over 20 grand is cowardly.


----------



## carthymc9 (Jun 22, 2014)

USA and Canada both system have to similar but USA system as well best i think.


----------



## Noomi (Jun 22, 2014)

carthymc9 said:


> USA and Canada both system have to similar but USA system as well best i think.



The US system sucks.


----------



## Noomi (Jun 22, 2014)

Listening said:


> Noomi said:
> 
> 
> > jillian said:
> ...



So people choose to get sick and bankrupt themselves?


----------



## alan1 (Jun 22, 2014)

Noomi said:


> carthymc9 said:
> 
> 
> > USA and Canada both system have to similar but USA system as well best i think.
> ...




Gee, I don't know about that [MENTION=38085]Noomi[/MENTION], it works pretty good for me.

In fact, just this month I was on vacation for a week and a half on an east coast island, and silly me, I forgot to bring my blood pressure medicine.  I visited a local clinic and explained my situation.  Had an exam from the nurse and spent about 10 minutes talking to him, then spent about 10 minutes talking to the doctor and she wrote me a prescription for the medicine.  I was in and out of the clinic in 35 minutes, my cost was $20.  I got the prescription filled at the local pharmacy for $4.
I'd call that "fantastic", not "sucks" as far as medical care service and results go.


----------



## Statistikhengst (Jun 22, 2014)

alan1 said:


> Noomi said:
> 
> 
> > carthymc9 said:
> ...



Sounds like in your case you got a good deal, there.


----------



## The Rabbi (Jun 22, 2014)

alan1 said:


> Noomi said:
> 
> 
> > carthymc9 said:
> ...


You're arguing with someone who couldn't find the US on a map with both hands.


----------



## Derideo_Te (Jun 22, 2014)

Listening said:


> Noomi said:
> 
> 
> > jillian said:
> ...



Not if you are earning minimum wage which is $14k per annum.


----------



## Cecilie1200 (Jun 22, 2014)

Noomi said:


> carthymc9 said:
> 
> 
> > USA and Canada both system have to similar but USA system as well best i think.
> ...



How would you know?


----------



## Cecilie1200 (Jun 22, 2014)

Statistikhengst said:


> alan1 said:
> 
> 
> > Noomi said:
> ...



What, because you think that's out of the norm?


----------



## boedicca (Jun 22, 2014)

Noomi said:


> jillian said:
> 
> 
> > > Five ways the American health care system is literally the worst
> ...




That is a load of poppycock based on abuse of statistics.

The study the "bankrupt due to health bills" meme came about because people who are descending into bankruptcy usually don't pay any of their bills, including ones to doctors and hospitals.  Minor bills for office visits are counted in the stats.

In reality, people go bankrupt due to having more debt than their incomes can handle.  The government has enabled this situation via promoting mortgages and student loans to people who will never be able to afford the debt load.  That has absolutely nothing to do with health care.


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## Howey (Jun 22, 2014)

Listening said:


> Noomi said:
> 
> 
> > jillian said:
> ...



I guess you can't provide proof of that claim, huh?


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## boedicca (Jun 22, 2014)

Here's a more accurate analysis of bankruptcy:

_Zhu says that over-consumption, overspending and households that simply live beyond their means are the primary factors that wreck finances and lead to bankruptcy. When household budgets are stretched to the limits and beyond, a single adverse event such as an illness or layoff can immediately lead to bankruptcy. While many bankruptcies may be triggered by these adverse events, the true cause of the bankruptcies is overspending, according to the study.

*The study determined that patterns of spending and over-consumption influence the likelihood of filing bankruptcy. A high ratio of mortgage debt to household income, credit card debt to household income and credit card debts to household income are all factors contributing to bankruptcy filings.*

On top of the debt to income ratio, medical conditions and illnesses raise the probability of bankruptcy by approximately 50 percent. However, divorce and unemployment have little impact on whether or not someone ends up filing bankruptcy.

The results of the study indicate that consumers strategically choose to file bankruptcy after overspending, rather than being forced into filing bankruptcy by adverse events.

It seems that people do not generally adjust spending in order to avoid bankruptcy. The study showed that in the households which file bankruptcy, more than five percent own at least one luxury vehicle. Mortgage debt is also high in bankrupt households and credit card debt is often equal to an entire year's income.

When consumers overspend and live beyond their means and then experience an adverse event, the study found that they are likely to file Chapter 7 bankruptcy because they do not have the ability to repay their debts. Chapter 7 bankruptcy allows these consumers to have their debts discharged with no obligation to repay them...._


Study: Overspending the Main Cause of Bankruptcy


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## Listening (Jun 22, 2014)

Derideo_Te said:


> Listening said:
> 
> 
> > Noomi said:
> ...



We know you think you're entitled....

But I know folks who make less than 14K, have more debt and would die before declaring banrkuptcy.  

They have a sense of honor.


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## Listening (Jun 22, 2014)

boedicca said:


> Here's a more accurate analysis of bankruptcy:
> 
> _Zhu says that over-consumption, overspending and households that simply live beyond their means are the primary factors that wreck finances and lead to bankruptcy. When household budgets are stretched to the limits and beyond, a single adverse event such as an illness or layoff can immediately lead to bankruptcy. While many bankruptcies may be triggered by these adverse events, the true cause of the bankruptcies is overspending, according to the study.
> 
> ...



The argument is that there is some statistic for medical bankruptcy.  What I never see is how much of the BR is due to medical bills or if the medical bills were just the straw that broke the camel's back.

How is it that Obama cancel's "junk plans" which WERE NOT junk.

Then I read about some plans offered through the exchange that have 25,000 deductible....is that possible.  That is more than the average medical bankruptcy.  Seems like Obama and Co need to rewrite the script.  This show is gonna get cancelled.


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## Listening (Jun 23, 2014)

Are we ready to declare the OP another case of Schillian flatulence, get out the air spray, and put the thread to rest ?


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## Jroc (Jun 23, 2014)

Derideo_Te said:


> Darkwind said:
> 
> 
> > jillian said:
> ...



I know a guy works for a friend of mine who had a heart attack. He was airlifted to university of Michigan hospital for emergency surgery ..he had no insurance. And this stupid cut and paste op is a joke


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## Political Junky (Jun 24, 2014)

Jroc said:


> Derideo_Te said:
> 
> 
> > Darkwind said:
> ...


You paid for his surgery, but you can bet he didn't have a heart transplant.


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## The Rabbi (Jun 24, 2014)

Political Junky said:


> Jroc said:
> 
> 
> > Derideo_Te said:
> ...



None of those pathetic responses refutes the idea that we have the best medical system when it comes to delivering timely and effective treatment.


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## Statistikhengst (Jun 24, 2014)

The Rabbi said:


> Political Junky said:
> 
> 
> > Jroc said:
> ...




And your data to back that claim?


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## Political Junky (Jun 24, 2014)

Statistikhengst said:


> The Rabbi said:
> 
> 
> > Political Junky said:
> ...



Good luck with getting an answer.


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## The Rabbi (Jun 24, 2014)

Political Junky said:


> Statistikhengst said:
> 
> 
> > The Rabbi said:
> ...



My answer is "Fuck you." Whenever libs cannot refute something they pull that crap.  Then when the evidence is produced they either dispute the source or move the goalposts.
Go find it yourself.  It's well documented enough.


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## Derideo_Te (Jun 24, 2014)

Listening said:


> Derideo_Te said:
> 
> 
> > Listening said:
> ...



Anecdotes are not facts!


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## Derideo_Te (Jun 24, 2014)

Jroc said:


> Derideo_Te said:
> 
> 
> > Darkwind said:
> ...



Yet another poster who spouts specious anecdotes instead of providing the hard facts requested.


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## Listening (Jun 24, 2014)

Derideo_Te said:


> Listening said:
> 
> 
> > Derideo_Te said:
> ...



Of course not.....

The claim (in bold) is no less conjecture and is certainly not a fact either.

What was your point ?


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## Derideo_Te (Jun 24, 2014)

Listening said:


> Derideo_Te said:
> 
> 
> > Listening said:
> ...



Your baseless allegation;



> Declaring bankruptcy over 20 grand is cowardly.



My factual response;



> Not if you are earning minimum wage which is $14k per annum.



Your anecdote;



> But I know folks who make less than 14K, have more debt and would die before declaring banrkuptcy.



The onus is on you to prove that it is "cowardly" to declare bankruptcy with a debt of $20k when you are only earning $14k.

So far your anecdotal response does not negate the facts that to someone trying to eke a living earning $14k pa would be forced to declare bankruptcy if they had no means to pay off a $20k debt burden.


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## Listening (Jun 24, 2014)

Derideo_Te said:


> Listening said:
> 
> 
> > Derideo_Te said:
> ...



There was no qualification for saying they had no means.  Quit moving the goal posts.

There is no FACT that someone making 14k would be forced (no choice) to declare bankruptcy.


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## Jroc (Jun 24, 2014)

Derideo_Te said:


> Jroc said:
> 
> 
> > Derideo_Te said:
> ...



the whole premise of the question is stupid anyway. You don't just show up at a hospital  needing a heart transplant and get, it insurance or not...What kind of idiot would think such a thing? although I'm sure once the federal government fully takes over the healthcare system, if you have political connections you'll be put at the top of the list


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## emilynghiem (Jun 24, 2014)

One of the worst problems is that our 'secular' system does not recognize or promote 
knowledge and access to spiritual healing that would drastically reduce costs and save more lives. Curing criminal illness would be cheaper than wasting billions on a failed prison system, and all those tax resources could be invested in education and health care.

Home - Christian Healing Ministries
Healing Is Yours
freespiritualhealing | Resources for Healing and Forgiveness Therapy



jillian said:


> > Five ways the American health care system is literally the worst
> >
> > The United States comes in dead last in a new, international ranking of health care systems from a top health-care non-profit.
> >
> ...


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## Political Junky (Jun 24, 2014)

Jroc said:


> Derideo_Te said:
> 
> 
> > Jroc said:
> ...


Dick Cheney sure got to the top of the list.


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## The Rabbi (Jun 24, 2014)

Political Junky said:


> Jroc said:
> 
> 
> > Derideo_Te said:
> ...



But not by just showing up at the hospital, twit.


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## Political Junky (Jun 24, 2014)

The Rabbi said:


> Political Junky said:
> 
> 
> > Jroc said:
> ...


Who said he did?


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## The Rabbi (Jun 24, 2014)

Political Junky said:


> The Rabbi said:
> 
> 
> > Political Junky said:
> ...



That was the point of contention.  Try to keep up.  Explaining things to you is so tiresome.


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## william the wie (Jun 24, 2014)

lurk post.


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## alan1 (Jun 25, 2014)

Statistikhengst said:


> alan1 said:
> 
> 
> > Noomi said:
> ...



I don't have to visit a doctor very often, but when I do, I am usually in and out in less than hour.  And given the correct medical diagnosis and treatment.

I have no idea why Noomi thinks the US system sucks, perhaps it is because she's never experienced it first hand.


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## Jroc (Jun 25, 2014)

Political Junky said:


> Jroc said:
> 
> 
> > Derideo_Te said:
> ...



Really? He must have been on that list for years with all his heart problems... More cronyism is not good for we commoners, but that's what you'll get with government run healthcare


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## alan1 (Jun 25, 2014)

Derideo_Te said:


> Listening said:
> 
> 
> > Noomi said:
> ...



Why don't you tell us what percentage of bankruptcies are due to medical bills where the person is making minimum wage.
That would be helpful.


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## alan1 (Jun 25, 2014)

Political Junky said:


> Jroc said:
> 
> 
> > Derideo_Te said:
> ...



Imagine that, he had medical insurance before Obamacare.  How is it possible?
In fact, Dick Cheney started having heart problems in his 30's, and he received medical care every time in those early years.  Maybe it was because he was smart enough to purchase medical insurance before Mr Obama told him to and before he needed it.


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## Listening (Jun 25, 2014)

alan1 said:


> Statistikhengst said:
> 
> 
> > alan1 said:
> ...



When it is in vogue to bash it....the sheep bash it.


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## Derideo_Te (Jun 26, 2014)

Listening said:


> Derideo_Te said:
> 
> 
> > Listening said:
> ...



Ever tried living on $14k pa yourself? Not moving anything. Simply stating that when you are living below the poverty level a debt burden of $20k is not something that you can afford to pay off. Even the interest payments are probably stretching your meager resources to the limits. 

Try doing the math for a change instead of just coming up with kneejerks about imaginary goal posts.


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## Derideo_Te (Jun 26, 2014)

Jroc said:


> Derideo_Te said:
> 
> 
> > Jroc said:
> ...



Thank you for conceding that you have nothing of value to contribute. Have a nice day.


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## Listening (Jun 26, 2014)

Derideo_Te said:


> Listening said:
> 
> 
> > Derideo_Te said:
> ...



Oh, so now I see we are advocating based on.....some set of assumptions you believe are valid.

I think.

In some way's your post makes no sense.

And is more kneejerk than mine since you are clearly being a hypocrite in your call to not use anecdotes (or some kind of thought experiment) as proof.

You can roll something out as "obvious" with nothing to back it up.

But you won't allow for real world examples of people who have gone contrary to your way of thinking.

Moron.


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## Listening (Jun 27, 2014)

U.S. Health Care Is the Best! And the Worst. - NationalJournal.com

"We are very good in treating highly specialized conditions after they have already developed&#8212;that's why people come from all over the world to get that treatment," says Paul Starr, a Princeton University sociologist who studies health care. "But we've allocated resources in such a way that we don't provide a lot of the up-front things&#8212;primary care, public-health services&#8212;that have a much bigger effect on the overall health of the population."

*****************

Which I thought was good perspective.

We have a great system....but our prevention leaves something to be desired.


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## Cecilie1200 (Jun 27, 2014)

Jroc said:


> Political Junky said:
> 
> 
> > Jroc said:
> ...



Cronyism?  Dick Cheney's health coverage was through his employer, as a result of his job, just like many Americans.  The fact that YOU have never accomplished enough in your life to be able to hold a job with excellent benefits does not mean there's anything crooked or underhanded about someone else having done so.


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## Cecilie1200 (Jun 27, 2014)

Listening said:


> U.S. Health Care Is the Best! And the Worst. - NationalJournal.com
> 
> "We are very good in treating highly specialized conditions after they have already developed&#8212;that's why people come from all over the world to get that treatment," says Paul Starr, a Princeton University sociologist who studies health care. "But we've allocated resources in such a way that we don't provide a lot of the up-front things&#8212;primary care, public-health services&#8212;that have a much bigger effect on the overall health of the population."
> 
> ...



Wow.  Unsubstantiated assumptions from an Ivory Tower talking head, stated as fact.  That's certainly convincing.


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## Listening (Jun 27, 2014)

Cecilie1200 said:


> Listening said:
> 
> 
> > U.S. Health Care Is the Best! And the Worst. - NationalJournal.com
> ...



C'mon Cecilie, I'm on your side.  

But I don't think there is anything wrong with looking at how our system could be improved.

I have several doctor friends who all say we are pretty weak on the preventative...but great on the curative.


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## Cecilie1200 (Jun 28, 2014)

Listening said:


> Cecilie1200 said:
> 
> 
> > Listening said:
> ...



I don't have a problem with improvement.  I have a problem with taking our template for improvement from people who have no clue about the real world and the real people who live in it.

And while I have no doubt that doctors would much rather have the bulk of their day made up of routine checkups and physicals rather than having to treat actual problems, that doesn't mean that "preventive" makes nearly as much difference in healthcare spending and quality of life as the promoters of socialist health systems would like us to believe.

It's actually been pretty well proven that increased spending on preventive measures does NOT reduce overall healthcare spending, so that ship has definitely sailed.  But it is also necessary to question the automatic assumption that increased spending on preventive measures will improve overall public health, too.  And it's further necessary to question the assertion that the United States is penurious when it comes to preventive medical spending.  (For me, it's necessary to question damned near ANY assertion.)

First of all, it's important to differentiate between _spending _on preventive medicine and _acting _on preventive medicine.  Too many people don't make the jump from going to the doctor for information on smoking cessation programs - for example - and actually USING the information to quit smoking.  I had a call at work the other day from a woman who has been getting two or three different smoking cessation medications from our mail-order pharmacy for the last year.  Her call was related to the fact that the doctor had denied our request for a renewal of her prescription because he was requiring her to go in for an office visit and checkup before he would write the new prescription.  This means that 1)  The woman's insurance paid for at least one office visit with the doctor to acquire the initial prescription, 2) the woman's insurance paid for twelve months worth of two or more prescription-level anti-smoking medications, which are NOT cheap, and 3) was going to be paying for at least one more office visit with the doctor and another three months worth of medications, minimum . . . and she still hadn't kicked the habit.

Second of all, recent studies show that the US has increased its actual spending on preventive medicine, and it makes much more spending available . . . IF people want to use it.  That doesn't guarantee that people WILL use it.  I myself have a copay of about $3 per office visit when I go to the doctor, and no copayment at all on medications.  However, except for yearly PAP smears and mammograms (because my family has a distressingly long history on both sides of people dying from virulent cancers) and the rare times when I'm truly sick, I don't go to the doctor.  The preventive spending is available to me, but I don't use it, and I'm hardly unusual among Americans.  Studies have shown that people on Medicaid - again, for example - who have a virtually unlimited supply of office visits and screenings for a spectrum of possible ailments and whatnot available to them, comparatively rarely make use of them.  By contrast, putting someone on Medicaid does not significantly reduce their use of emergency room and urgent-care visits.  Basically, just because you make it possible for someone to see the doctor before they get sick doesn't mean they WILL.  You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink.


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## Listening (Jun 29, 2014)

Cecilie1200 said:


> Listening said:
> 
> 
> > Cecilie1200 said:
> ...



Thanks for this information.

While I can't argue with your description of what goes on above, I'd like to see a change in our philosophy regarding preventative medicine.

It has to include incentives and penalties.

As an example, if a person is overweight and headed in the wrong direction, I feel we need to "motivate" them to not become obese.  That could be done through a series of financial pentalties for getting to fat.  Those penalties would take the form of increased premiums or a rider of some kind.

I have not thought his all the way through....but it would be something like that.


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## Derideo_Te (Jun 29, 2014)

Cecilie1200 said:


> Listening said:
> 
> 
> > Cecilie1200 said:
> ...


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## william the wie (Jun 29, 2014)

Actually provably effective preventative healthcare is available at the county health office and teaching hospitals everywhere I have ever lived in the US at low or no cost. There are huge disputes over all other forms of "preventative care".

Prostate exams, angioplasty and bypass operations have always been suspect. In the last two cases EDTA and Serapeptase are over the counter medications that can and sometimes do make limited medical claims without the usual FDA disclaimer for the treatment of cardio-vascular disease. EDTA for example does have FDA approval as a blood thinner and Serapeptase has FDA approval for its use to dissolve plaque. Although usually used only in ERs those approved uses can be cited in advertising.


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## Cecilie1200 (Jun 29, 2014)

Listening said:


> Cecilie1200 said:
> 
> 
> > Listening said:
> ...



Sorry, but it's not MY job - and sure as shit not the government's - to "motivate" an adult human being one way or another in regard to his own health.  I'm not his momma, and for sure Uncle Sam isn't.

If your response is, "Well, he's going to cost the government for healthcare because he's unhealthy, then", you haven't defined a reason why we need to get more involved in his life; you've defined the reason we're already too involved to start.


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## Listening (Jun 29, 2014)

Cecilie1200 said:


> Listening said:
> 
> 
> > Cecilie1200 said:
> ...



You are right that it isn't our jobs.  And I certainly DON'T want government anywhere near this kind of thing (with the possible exception of running public service adds).

What I am saying is that people who are fat should pay more for health insurance because they belong to a high risk group and being fat, by and large, is a CHOICE.

The same for smokers, drinkers, and others who have high risk behaviour.  

It's simple economics.  He's not going to cost the government....he or she is going to cost me and I don't feel I should pay for people's poor decisions.  So if you are fat...you should start paying now for the diabetes medicines you'll probably be consuming sometime later on.


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## Politico (Jun 30, 2014)

Cecilie1200 said:


> Cronyism?  Dick Cheney's health coverage was through his employer, as a result of his job, just like many Americans.  The fact that YOU have never accomplished enough in your life to be able to hold a job with excellent benefits does not mean there's anything crooked or underhanded about someone else having done so.



LOL Cheney hasn't had an employer for years. His heart transplant was paid for by the taxpayers.


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## Meister (Jun 30, 2014)

Listening said:


> Cecilie1200 said:
> 
> 
> > Listening said:
> ...


Perhaps people that are older should have to pay a higher premium than those that are younger?  Where does it stop?


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## Listening (Jun 30, 2014)

Meister said:


> Listening said:
> 
> 
> > Cecilie1200 said:
> ...



You raise a good point.  Especially since something like 30% of all health care is for people in the last year of life.  My wife can tell stories of people who wanted to be left alone to die, but whose families insisted that the DNR not be honored and that everything be done to keep granny alive (for what purpose was still not clear).

That is why I like individual SS accounts (not private accounts, but accounts with actual balances in them).  Someone in later years could then draw from those in the cases where questionable expenses could be incurred.  Someone could chose to spend a bunch of money to live a little longer or chose instead to pass it along.  

Choice is such a nice word.


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## Cecilie1200 (Jun 30, 2014)

Listening said:


> Cecilie1200 said:
> 
> 
> > Listening said:
> ...



Dear, people who are obese already DO pay more for health insurance, as do people who smoke, and people who have pre-existing conditions.  Do you think you're coming up with some brilliant, innovative idea that the insurance company underwriters haven't already covered to a faretheewell in their premium schedules?  Please.

It's simple logic.  WHY is he going to cost you and me money?  Because some group of dumbshits voted in another group of pandering cretins who passed laws making him our financial responsibility, that's why.  They put him on the public dole and raised a huge outcry against "punishing" people with pre-existing conditions and indicators and demanding that we subsidize that shit.  For a group of people who swear by Darwinist evolution, the American political left sure does seem determined to counteract natural selection and survival of the fittest.

So, once again, the answer isn't to get even MORE involved in his fucking life by taking him by the scruff of his fat neck and dragging him away from the dinner table.  The answer, to be brutally honest, is to get LESS involved and let the fat fucker eat himself to death so that he's out of everyone's way.


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## Listening (Jul 1, 2014)

Cecilie1200 said:


> Listening said:
> 
> 
> > Cecilie1200 said:
> ...



Actually, I was not aware of what you describe in your first paragraph.  Thanks for the info.

Can't argue the second paragraph.

Totally agree with the third....as long as we all agree that when said fatty blows the top off his max that we don't come to his rescue.  Either his family puts up or he goes away.


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## Cecilie1200 (Jul 2, 2014)

Meister said:


> Listening said:
> 
> 
> > Cecilie1200 said:
> ...



People who are old enough get Medicare, which is a damned good deal in exchange for not having died, FYI.

Who says it SHOULD stop?  Is there some particular reason that your expenses for health insurance - or any insurance - SHOULDN'T be calculated by how much you are, in turn, going to cost?  Makes sense to me.


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## Cecilie1200 (Jul 2, 2014)

Listening said:


> Cecilie1200 said:
> 
> 
> > Listening said:
> ...



Hey, I'm all over that like white on rice.  It's not that I have a problem, in theory, with having a social safety net for emergencies.  I get that shit sometimes happens to people, and we're not animals.  But when the "shit" happening to someone is their own stupidity, then I honestly have to question what benefit there is to society in keeping someone that dumb, useless, and self-destructive around, at no expense to him.  It's YOUR health and YOUR life, and YOU should be the one paying to maintain it, or the people who actually want you around should.  Those of us who will never notice or care if you die should not be charged as though your existence is a public utility.


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## william the wie (Jul 2, 2014)

Obamacare in all but name will implode sooner or later.


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## Listening (Jul 5, 2014)

Cecilie1200 said:


> Listening said:
> 
> 
> > Cecilie1200 said:
> ...



And that becomes the crux of the disagree with the other side.

When you tell others to "take care of themselves", you have to take a risk that they won't.

And if you bail them out, you become an enabling society.

I am all for a safety net for those who are trying.

But I am all to aware of situations where the system is being scammed.  And I am not afraid to speculate that is happening in huge chunks.

I am also willing to live with that risks.  But, I've seen communities do some pretty great things.  In one small Idaho town, they raised 200,000 back in the early 80's for a liver transplant that a kid's family could not afford.  I know the town and they'd have done it for ten kids even though they are not rolling the dough.


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## Listening (Jul 10, 2014)

william the wie said:


> Obamacare in all but name will implode sooner or later.



If they ditch the employer mandate....do you think the law could be challenged again.

Maybe we will still have the best health care after all.

We can only hope.

I know this will piss off Schillian since she hates America.


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## hinlik (Jul 22, 2014)

Health is wealth. I want to share some nesscery steps for health care. First of all brush their teeth properly. Many peoples dont know importance of teeth brush. Cut your nails after one week. Use 2 litter water bottles daily base. Eat your stress away. Dont eat carbohydrates for at least an hour after exercise. Dont smoking, do regular self examination of your body. However we are safe many dieses.


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## Listening (Jul 24, 2014)

Where o where is Schillian.

We cram her thread up her rear and she takes off.


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## Youch (Aug 10, 2014)

jillian said:


> > Five ways the American health care system is literally the worst
> >
> > The United States comes in dead last in a new, international ranking of health care systems from a top health-care non-profit.
> >
> ...



I do not have the time to read the other responses to this post.   I just wanted to be on record for having stated that this is a moronic poll/quiz/article/whatever.  The actual facts are, that the vast majority of people prefer, and in fact migrants move toward, the American health care system.  Canadians come to the US for complicated matters.  

What, you want to go to some other country for your healthcare?  GO FOR IT!!!  BS, you will not....  why, because ours was the best before government got involved.  Still is, for a while...

Change channels....   Bring it on, lets debate......


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## Youch (Aug 10, 2014)

hinlik said:


> Health is wealth. I want to share some nesscery steps for health care. First of all brush their teeth properly. Many peoples dont know importance of teeth brush. Cut your nails after one week. Use 2 litter water bottles daily base. Eat your stress away. Dont eat carbohydrates for at least an hour after exercise. Dont smoking, do regular self examination of your body. However we are safe many dieses.



Good point....national health care policy has nothing to do with health care......instead it has to do with buying votes and the growth of government and intrusion into our lives.


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## Rikurzhen (Aug 10, 2014)




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## Rozman (Aug 11, 2014)

jillian said:


> Rambunctious said:
> 
> 
> > It cost at least double today for me to cover my family than it did last year. That dang Bush!
> ...



Bullshit....

I had a good plan before OCare.
Naw saddled with a $6,000.00 yearly deductible I don't go see my doctor.
I can't afford the out of pocket costs for the tests he did in the office.
Colonoscopy that should be done this Fall.... No way that's getting done now.
I can't afford it.


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## Listening (Aug 23, 2014)

Rozman said:


> jillian said:
> 
> 
> > Rambunctious said:
> ...



Yeah, we creamed that little nugget right out of the blocks.  Nobody heard of junk plans until the country went into open revolt over being cancelled.  It's all BULLSHIT.

Schillian is one sad assed loser for the left.  It's a shame people like that don't follow Grayson's plea.


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## Statistikhengst (Aug 24, 2014)

Listening said:


> Rozman said:
> 
> 
> > jillian said:
> ...




Oh, you mean the plea where Grayson said that the Republicans want people to die?

Is that the plea you mean?

So, are you saying that Jillian should die, but of course are way too much of a coward to actually come out and say the words like that?

Is that how you roll these days?  Sad, just plain old sad.

Just when I think Righties cannot sink any lower, they do.


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## Greenbeard (Aug 24, 2014)

Rozman said:


> Naw saddled with a $6,000.00 yearly deductible I don't go see my doctor.
> I can't afford the out of pocket costs for the tests he did in the office.
> Colonoscopy that should be done this Fall.... No way that's getting done now.
> I can't afford it.



Evidence-based preventive services are carved out of cost-sharing for plans. That means if you're 50 or over, you won't have to pay anything out of pocket for a colonoscopy.


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## boedicca (Aug 24, 2014)

Rozman said:


> jillian said:
> 
> 
> > Rambunctious said:
> ...




And that is the point.  For people to pay for something that is basically useless given the high deductibles and narrow provider networks...and fill the bank accounts of the Big Government Crony Insurance Companies who helped write the legislation and have HHS in regulatory capture mode.


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## Listening (Aug 24, 2014)

You can keep your doctor if you like them, until we tell you that you can't keep your doctor if you like them.


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## dblack (Aug 25, 2014)

I think what eats up the statists is that it's not a 'system'.


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## GHook93 (Aug 25, 2014)

There is a different between the best health INSURANCE system and best healthCARE system in the world. If you are talking best health insurance system then you may have a point. But if you are talking about the best healthCARE system in the world then we are the undisputed kings. We have BY FAR the best doctors, facilities and medical schools. 

Which Country has Best Doctors in the World Famous Doctors in the World WhichCountry.co
"Q: What Country has Best Doctors in the World?

*Ans: *There are several nations having top doctors in different specializations but according a survey
_*United States* is the country which has the most famous and best doctors in the world._ qualified students and doctors from around the world come to USA for the to become top medical professionals. and USA is also famous for its Globally popular Mayo clinic which is located in Rochester. throughout America has better medical treatment providers as compared to other developed nations. sometimes they are expensive which a poor person can’t afford,since United States is  famous for its excellent and expert doctors from all other countries in the whole world. - See more at: Which Country has Best Doctors in the World Famous Doctors in the World WhichCountry.co"


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