# Raw milk can be dangerous



## konradv

Here's a little something to think about for those who keep telling us the government should stay out of our business and allow free sale of raw milk.

45 in Utah have campylobacteriosis from raw milk - CNN.com


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## Delta4Embassy

konradv said:


> Here's a little something to think about for those who keep telling us the government should stay out of our business and allow free sale of raw milk.
> 
> 45 in Utah have campylobacteriosis from raw milk - CNN.com



This shouldn't be news, but it is. Some people are just too stupid to consider cow's milk's great, if you're a baby cow. Not so hot for humans though, and the raw product is even worse.


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## Darlene

I read the article.
The illness was not caused by raw milk itself, but the lack of proper hygiene procedures.


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## Rotagilla

People drank raw milk for thousands of years before pasteurization was invented.
..but I understand you (OP) need to support statist policies in government.


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## Darlene

The Health Benefits of Raw Milk from Grass-Fed Animals A Campaign for Real MilkA Campaign for Real Milk

Raw Milk Reality Benefits of Raw Milk

Food Inc. and the Milk Men CMH Gourmand


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## martybegan

konradv said:


> Here's a little something to think about for those who keep telling us the government should stay out of our business and allow free sale of raw milk.
> 
> 45 in Utah have campylobacteriosis from raw milk - CNN.com



How about the government just require raw milk to be LABELLED as raw milk, and let the customer decide?


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## Darlene

martybegan said:


> konradv said:
> 
> 
> 
> Here's a little something to think about for those who keep telling us the government should stay out of our business and allow free sale of raw milk.
> 
> 45 in Utah have campylobacteriosis from raw milk - CNN.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How about the government just require raw milk to be LABELLED as raw milk, and let the customer decide?
Click to expand...


The government should be required to label all foods that have been modified in one way or another as such (GMOs, hormones, etc).
The government doesn't want the people to be in control of what they produce and eat.
Watch the documentary Food INC. Its a great movie and a real eye opener.


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## martybegan

Darlene said:


> martybegan said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> konradv said:
> 
> 
> 
> Here's a little something to think about for those who keep telling us the government should stay out of our business and allow free sale of raw milk.
> 
> 45 in Utah have campylobacteriosis from raw milk - CNN.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How about the government just require raw milk to be LABELLED as raw milk, and let the customer decide?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The government should be required to label all foods that have been modified in one way or another as such (GMOs, hormones, etc).
> The government doesn't want the people to be in control of what they produce and eat.
> Watch the documentary Food INC. Its a great movie and a real eye opener.
Click to expand...


or just label foods with whats in them, regardless. I personally don't give a rats ass about GMO's, transfats, and whatever, but if people want to know if they are in them, fine by me. 

I probably wouldn't drink raw milk, but I would love to have a nice unpasteurized french style cheese from time to time.


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## Darlene

martybegan said:


> Darlene said:
> 
> 
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> martybegan said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> konradv said:
> 
> 
> 
> Here's a little something to think about for those who keep telling us the government should stay out of our business and allow free sale of raw milk.
> 
> 45 in Utah have campylobacteriosis from raw milk - CNN.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How about the government just require raw milk to be LABELLED as raw milk, and let the customer decide?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The government should be required to label all foods that have been modified in one way or another as such (GMOs, hormones, etc).
> The government doesn't want the people to be in control of what they produce and eat.
> Watch the documentary Food INC. Its a great movie and a real eye opener.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> or just label foods with whats in them, regardless. I personally don't give a rats ass about GMO's, transfats, and whatever, but if people want to know if they are in them, fine by me.
> 
> I probably wouldn't drink raw milk, but I would love to have a nice unpasteurized french style cheese from time to time.
Click to expand...


Being with child, it makes me more aware of what I'm putting into my body.
I'd much rather eat organically, even not being pregnant.


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## Delta4Embassy

martybegan said:


> How about the government just require raw milk to be LABELLED as raw milk, and let the customer decide?



Not positive but I think the whole raw milk thing skips the government altogether. Basically some guy on his farm putting it in a container and selling it.


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## Pennywise

The government created the food pyramid that was bought and paid for by the grain lobby. The food pyramid that has created the present obesity epidemic. How many have died from heart disease and diabetes by following government suggestions as to a "healthy" diet?


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## martybegan

Delta4Embassy said:


> martybegan said:
> 
> 
> 
> How about the government just require raw milk to be LABELLED as raw milk, and let the customer decide?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Not positive but I think the whole raw milk thing skips the government altogether. Basically some guy on his farm putting it in a container and selling it.
Click to expand...


Yep, and the USDA is being heavy handed about it, FOR THE CHILDREN.

Just make farmer bob put a label on it that says "raw milk, ooga booga" and be done with it.


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## konradv

Rotagilla said:


> People drank raw milk for thousands of years before pasteurization was invented.
> ..but I understand you (OP) need to support statist policies in government.



True, but many died because of it and the life expectancy was much lower.  You want to go back to those days?


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## konradv

Darlene said:


> I read the article.
> The illness was not caused by raw milk itself, but the lack of proper hygiene procedures.



My point wasn't that raw milk was necessarily bad, but that if government didn't have laws and inspections, this kind of thing would happen much more often.


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## Darlene

konradv said:


> Rotagilla said:
> 
> 
> 
> People drank raw milk for thousands of years before pasteurization was invented.
> ..but I understand you (OP) need to support statist policies in government.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> True, but many died because of it and the life expectancy was much lower.  You want to go back to those days?
Click to expand...

I doubt milk has had anything to do with life expectancy.
Just like its not raw eggs that make you sick but rather the bacteria on the shell (it comes out of a chicken's ass). If a cow's udders aren't cleaned properly, there is the chance of getting sick.
Pasteurization kills off not only harmful bacteria but beneficial bacteria as well.


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## konradv

Darlene said:


> konradv said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Rotagilla said:
> 
> 
> 
> People drank raw milk for thousands of years before pasteurization was invented.
> ..but I understand you (OP) need to support statist policies in government.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> True, but many died because of it and the life expectancy was much lower.  You want to go back to those days?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I doubt milk has had anything to do with life expectancy.
> Just like its not raw eggs that make you sick but rather the bacteria on the shell (it comes out of a chicken's ass). If a cow's udders aren't cleaned properly, there is the chance of getting sick.
> Pasteurization kills off not only harmful bacteria but beneficial bacteria as well.
Click to expand...


Not exactly my point.  The poster pointed to one thing in the past and I pointed to another.  The aren't related except that just because something was true in the past, doesn't automatically make it good and/or true.


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## whitehall

Look at the fine print in prescription drugs. You can get T.B. or be inclined to kill yourself or someone else. Fatal events have occurred. Prescription drugs are ten times more dangerous than raw milk.


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## Darlene

konradv said:


> Darlene said:
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> 
> 
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> konradv said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Rotagilla said:
> 
> 
> 
> People drank raw milk for thousands of years before pasteurization was invented.
> ..but I understand you (OP) need to support statist policies in government.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> True, but many died because of it and the life expectancy was much lower.  You want to go back to those days?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I doubt milk has had anything to do with life expectancy.
> Just like its not raw eggs that make you sick but rather the bacteria on the shell (it comes out of a chicken's ass). If a cow's udders aren't cleaned properly, there is the chance of getting sick.
> Pasteurization kills off not only harmful bacteria but beneficial bacteria as well.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Not exactly my point.  The poster pointed to one thing in the past and I pointed to another.  The aren't related except that just because something was true in the past, doesn't automatically make it good and/or true.
Click to expand...

You were implying that life expectancy was lower than it is today because of raw milk. Many sicknesses and diseases started disappearing when hygiene and cleanliness started improving, including with food. You need to consider the living conditions throughout history that influenced our health. There are many health benefits from drinking raw milk that has been handled properly.
Benefits of Raw Milk LIVESTRONG.COM

Raw Milk Facts...The Raw Milk Information Guide You Can Trust 
Raw Milk Reality Benefits of Raw Milk


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## Darlene

whitehall said:


> Look at the fine print in prescription drugs. You can get T.B. or be inclined to kill yourself or someone else. Fatal events have occurred. Prescription drugs are ten times more dangerous than raw milk.


You have a one in six million chance of getting sick from raw milk. That's a very small chance.


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## koshergrl

""What we've discovered is that an employee had not been thoroughly cleaning the udders of the cows," Larry Lewis with the Utah Department of Agriculture and Food told CNN affiliate KSL. "That is introducing contamination, manure and feces that are in that area into the milk, which is a major problem."

I imagine this was an undocumented immigrant worker. 

They often work in dairies. They also test positive for TB quite frequently. 

Cool...let's encourage more undocumented illegals to jump the borders, and put them to work handling our food. Good idea!

45 in Utah have campylobacteriosis from raw milk - CNN.com


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## Dont Taz Me Bro

konradv said:


> Here's a little something to think about for those who keep telling us the government should stay out of our business and allow free sale of raw milk.
> 
> 45 in Utah have campylobacteriosis from raw milk - CNN.com



Human beings over the age of 2 shouldn't be drinking milk in the first place.  It's really not healthy; it makes you fat.  That aside, if people want to drink raw milk and accept the alleged risk, what right does the government have to stop them?  Isn't this supposed to be a free country?


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## koshergrl

Don't drink raw milk from a dairy that hires illegals. 

My mom taught me that.

PS..we never got sick from raw milk.


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## Dont Taz Me Bro

koshergrl said:


> I imagine this was an undocumented immigrant worker.
> 
> They often work in dairies. They also test positive for TB quite frequently.
> 
> Cool...let's encourage more undocumented illegals to jump the borders, and put them to work handling our food. Good idea!
> 
> 45 in Utah have campylobacteriosis from raw milk - CNN.com



You imagine this scenario due to your personal bias and bigotry.  Do you have any evidence to back up your claim?  No, of course you don't.


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## gallantwarrior

I have been drinking raw milk, my daughter and granddaughters drink raw milk.  I have herd share customers (only way to legally consume raw milk in this state is from your own animals) who drink my raw milk.  None of us have ever gotten sick, or died.  Sanitation is the key to healthy milk, or any food.  Poorly handled and contaminated processed milk can make people sick, too. 
The government should stay out of my food choices.  Required labeling, OK, I'll buy that.  There is a tremendous market for raw foodstuffs driven by people who are educating themselves and becoming aware of the detrimental affects of government meddling in our food supply.


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## skye

Fortunately I am allergic to cows milk. I only drink soy milk.


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## gallantwarrior

skye said:


> Fortunately I am allergic to cows milk. I only drink soy milk.



Here's a clue, what you drink isn't milk.  Soys are not mammals and therefore do not produce milk.  You are welcome to your soy product, most likely produced using GMO soy beans.


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## skye

gallantwarrior said:


> skye said:
> 
> 
> 
> Fortunately I am allergic to cows milk. I only drink soy milk.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here's a clue, what you drink isn't milk.  Soys are not mammals and therefore do not produce milk.  You are welcome to your soy product, most likely produced using GMO soy beans.
Click to expand...



I am very aware of GMO food.

The soy milk I consume is made with Non GM soy.


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## koshergrl

Dont Taz Me Bro said:


> koshergrl said:
> 
> 
> 
> I imagine this was an undocumented immigrant worker.
> 
> They often work in dairies. They also test positive for TB quite frequently.
> 
> Cool...let's encourage more undocumented illegals to jump the borders, and put them to work handling our food. Good idea!
> 
> 45 in Utah have campylobacteriosis from raw milk - CNN.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You imagine this scenario due to your personal bias and bigotry.  Do you have any evidence to back up your claim?  No, of course you don't.
Click to expand...


"
*Who should get tested for TB?*

A person who has symptoms of active TB disease
A person who has been exposed to someone (a family member, friend, or co-worker) who has active TB disease
A person who has HIV infection or certain medical illnesses such as diabetes or chronic kidney failure
A person who is taking steroid or other immune suppressing drugs for chronic medical conditions
A person who lives or works in a homeless shelter, prison, hospital, nursing home or other similar group setting
*A person who has recently come to the U.S. from a region with a lot of active TB* such as Africa, Asia, the Caribbean, Eastern Europe, and *Latin America"*
Tuberculosis United Federation of Teachers


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## gallantwarrior

skye said:


> gallantwarrior said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> skye said:
> 
> 
> 
> Fortunately I am allergic to cows milk. I only drink soy milk.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here's a clue, what you drink isn't milk.  Soys are not mammals and therefore do not produce milk.  You are welcome to your soy product, most likely produced using GMO soy beans.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> I am very aware of GMO food.
> 
> The soy milk I consume is made with Non GM soy.
Click to expand...


Good.  But it is still not _milk.  _Milk:_ "A whitish liquid containing proteins, fats, lactose, and various vitamins and minerals that is produced by the mammary glands of all mature female mammals after they have given birth and serves as nourishment for their young."_
Last time I looked into the subject, soy plants had still not sprouted hair/fur, nor do the bear their young live.
It has become popular as a sales tactic to delude consumers into accepting various plant extracts (soy and almond come to mind) as "milk" because the historical consumption of mammary excretions of various animals has proven nutritious and therefor desirable.


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## Moonglow

Milk blah.. had to drink it from the cow, warm.....


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## koshergrl

Avoid food handled by ppl from Latin America, you'll live longer.


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## Dont Taz Me Bro

koshergrl said:


> Dont Taz Me Bro said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> koshergrl said:
> 
> 
> 
> I imagine this was an undocumented immigrant worker.
> 
> They often work in dairies. They also test positive for TB quite frequently.
> 
> Cool...let's encourage more undocumented illegals to jump the borders, and put them to work handling our food. Good idea!
> 
> 45 in Utah have campylobacteriosis from raw milk - CNN.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You imagine this scenario due to your personal bias and bigotry.  Do you have any evidence to back up your claim?  No, of course you don't.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> "
> *Who should get tested for TB?*
> 
> A person who has symptoms of active TB disease
> A person who has been exposed to someone (a family member, friend, or co-worker) who has active TB disease
> A person who has HIV infection or certain medical illnesses such as diabetes or chronic kidney failure
> A person who is taking steroid or other immune suppressing drugs for chronic medical conditions
> A person who lives or works in a homeless shelter, prison, hospital, nursing home or other similar group setting
> *A person who has recently come to the U.S. from a region with a lot of active TB* such as Africa, Asia, the Caribbean, Eastern Europe, and *Latin America"*
> Tuberculosis United Federation of Teachers
Click to expand...


Which doesn't answer my question, but that was expected because you can't.


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## rawmilkmike

skye said:


> Fortunately I am allergic to cows milk. I only drink soy milk.


Raw milk cures food allergies.


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## Moonglow

rawmilkmike said:


> skye said:
> 
> 
> 
> Fortunately I am allergic to cows milk. I only drink soy milk.
> 
> 
> 
> Raw milk cures food allergies.
Click to expand...


Like being lactose intolerant?


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## rawmilkmike

konradv said:


> Here's a little something to think about for those who keep telling us the government should stay out of our business and allow free sale of raw milk.
> 
> 45 in Utah have campylobacteriosis from raw milk - CNN.com


To date, 45 cases of diarrhea which may have been Campylobacter infections have been reported in people who indicated that they may have consumed some raw milk or cream in the week before their diarrhea began. Larry Lewis with the Utah Department of Agriculture and Food, speculates that maybe an employee had not been thoroughly cleaning the udders of the cows properly. The dairy has been very cooperative in working with the inspectors, and will resume raw milk sales as soon as the milk consistently passes inspection.


Where's the follow up information? How were they linked? Does the state have any proof these illnesses were caused by raw milk? What milk tested positive? Was it milk or cream? Did it come from the bulk tank or a bottle? Was there any independent tests made? Were all 45 people tested for campylobacter? How many non-raw milk drinkers were sick in the area? Is the dairy back in business? How many negative tests were there during this two and a half month outbreak? How many positives tests were there before the milk was clear? How many raw milk customers does this dairy have? What would be a normal amount of diarrhea for a 2 and 1/2 month period?


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## I.P.Freely

I think gun owners should be the only people  allowed to buy raw milk.


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## rawmilkmike

Moonglow said:


> rawmilkmike said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> skye said:
> 
> 
> 
> Fortunately I am allergic to cows milk. I only drink soy milk.
> 
> 
> 
> Raw milk cures food allergies.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Like being lactose intolerant?
Click to expand...

Actually the Mayo Clinic calls it milk protein intolerance not lactose intolerance because it has nothing to do with lactose. Most lactose intolerants are not lactose malabsorbers and most lactose malabsorbers are not lactose intolerant. Almost all can drink raw milk with no problem.


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## rawmilkmike

koshergrl said:


> ""What we've discovered is that an employee had not been thoroughly cleaning the udders of the cows," Larry Lewis with the Utah Department of Agriculture and Food told CNN affiliate KSL. "That is introducing contamination, manure and feces that are in that area into the milk, which is a major problem."
> 
> I imagine this was an undocumented immigrant worker.
> 
> They often work in dairies. They also test positive for TB quite frequently.
> 
> Cool...let's encourage more undocumented illegals to jump the borders, and put them to work handling our food. Good idea!
> 
> 45 in Utah have campylobacteriosis from raw milk - CNN.com


They seldom if ever work in dairies. They also seldom test positive for TB.


To date, 45 cases of diarrhea which MAY HAVE BEEN Campylobacter infections have been reported in people who indicated that they MAY HAVE CONSUMED some raw milk OR CREAM in the WEEK before their DIARRHEA began. Larry Lewis with the Utah Department of Agriculture and Food, SPECULATES THAT MAYBE an employee had not been thoroughly cleaning the udders of the cows properly.


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## rawmilkmike

Delta4Embassy said:


> konradv said:
> 
> 
> 
> Here's a little something to think about for those who keep telling us the government should stay out of our business and allow free sale of raw milk.
> 
> 45 in Utah have campylobacteriosis from raw milk - CNN.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This shouldn't be news, but it is. Some people are just too stupid to consider cow's milk's great, if you're a baby cow. Not so hot for humans though, and the raw product is even worse.
Click to expand...

Yes, and bananas are for monkeys. Pasteurized milk is not food for any species.


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## rawmilkmike

Darlene said:


> whitehall said:
> 
> 
> 
> Look at the fine print in prescription drugs. You can get T.B. or be inclined to kill yourself or someone else. Fatal events have occurred. Prescription drugs are ten times more dangerous than raw milk.
> 
> 
> 
> You have a one in six million chance of getting sick from raw milk. That's a very small chance.
Click to expand...

According to U.S. government studies raw milk may actually have a negative risk factor.
-----
1. An estimated 17.3% of raw milk consumers in Minnesota may have acquired an illness caused by 1 of these enteric pathogens during the 10-year study period. (That's 1.7% per year.) or (1 in 59) and (No deaths in the US from fluid raw milk consumption.)
-----
2. About 48 million people (That's 15% per year or 1 in 6 Americans) get sick and 3,000 die each year from foodborne diseases, according new estimates from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.
-----
If raw milk is the most dangerous food NOT on the market how is it possible that only 1 in 59 raw milk consumer get sick each year from foodborne diseases while 1 in 6 Americans(78.5% of whom drink pasteurized milk and only 3% of whom drink raw milk.) get sick each year from foodborne diseases? Raw milk may be preventing 1.3 million cases of foodborne disease and 90 deaths every year in the US. Or in other words: People who don't drink raw milk are 9 times more likely to contract a so called foodborne illness than people that do.


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## rawmilkmike

Darlene said:


> konradv said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Darlene said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> konradv said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Rotagilla said:
> 
> 
> 
> People drank raw milk for thousands of years before pasteurization was invented.
> ..but I understand you (OP) need to support statist policies in government.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> True, but many died because of it and the life expectancy was much lower.  You want to go back to those days?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I doubt milk has had anything to do with life expectancy.
> Just like its not raw eggs that make you sick but rather the bacteria on the shell (it comes out of a chicken's ass). If a cow's udders aren't cleaned properly, there is the chance of getting sick.
> Pasteurization kills off not only harmful bacteria but beneficial bacteria as well.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Not exactly my point.  The poster pointed to one thing in the past and I pointed to another.  The aren't related except that just because something was true in the past, doesn't automatically make it good and/or true.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You were implying that life expectancy was lower than it is today because of raw milk. Many sicknesses and diseases started disappearing when hygiene and cleanliness started improving, including with food. You need to consider the living conditions throughout history that influenced our health. There are many health benefits from drinking raw milk that has been handled properly.
> Benefits of Raw Milk LIVESTRONG.COM
> Raw Milk Facts...The Raw Milk Information Guide You Can Trust
> Raw Milk Reality Benefits of Raw Milk
Click to expand...

Emigration and moving people around causes high infant mortality. That is what made the life expectancy seem so low. There are actually fewer centenarians today.


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## koshergrl

rawmilkmike said:


> koshergrl said:
> 
> 
> 
> ""What we've discovered is that an employee had not been thoroughly cleaning the udders of the cows," Larry Lewis with the Utah Department of Agriculture and Food told CNN affiliate KSL. "That is introducing contamination, manure and feces that are in that area into the milk, which is a major problem."
> 
> I imagine this was an undocumented immigrant worker.
> 
> They often work in dairies. They also test positive for TB quite frequently.
> 
> Cool...let's encourage more undocumented illegals to jump the borders, and put them to work handling our food. Good idea!
> 
> 45 in Utah have campylobacteriosis from raw milk - CNN.com
> 
> 
> 
> They seldom if ever work in dairies. They also seldom test positive for TB.
> 
> 
> To date, 45 cases of diarrhea which MAY HAVE BEEN Campylobacter infections have been reported in people who indicated that they MAY HAVE CONSUMED some raw milk OR CREAM in the WEEK before their DIARRHEA began. Larry Lewis with the Utah Department of Agriculture and Food, SPECULATES THAT MAYBE an employee had not been thoroughly cleaning the udders of the cows properly.
Click to expand...


Educate yourself:

'
According to Dr. Laurence Nickey, director of the El Paso heath district “Contagious diseases that are generally considered to have been controlled in the United States are readily evident along the border ... The incidence of tuberculosis in El Paso County is twice that of the U.S. rate. Dr. Nickey also states that leprosy, which is considered by most Americans to be a disease of the Third World, is readily evident along the U.S.-Mexico border and that dysentery is several times the U.S. rate ... People have come to the border for economic opportunities, but the necessary sewage treatment facilities, public water systems, environmental enforcement, and medical care have not been made available to them, causing a severe risk to health and well being of people on both sides of the border.”1

A June, 2009 article in the New England Journal of Medicine noted that a majority (57.8%) of all new cases of tuberculosis in the United States in 2007 were diagnosed in foreign-born persons. The TB infection rate among foreign-born persons was 9.8 times as high as that among U.S.-born persons.2 The article documents the medical testing process for TB required of immigrants and refugees, and this points to foreigners who are unscreened, especially the illegal alien population as the logical source of this disproportionate rate of TB incidence. It should also be kept in mind that among U.S. citizens who contract TB their exposure to the disease may well have come from exposure to a non-U.S. citizen.

“The pork tapeworm, which thrives in Latin America and Mexico, is showing up along the U.S. border, threatening to ravage victims with symptoms ranging from seizures to death. ... The same [Mexican] underclass has migrated north to find jobs on the border, bringing the parasite and the sickness—cysticercosis—its eggs can cause[.] Cysts that form around the larvae usually lodge in the brain and destroy tissue, causing hallucinations, speech and vision problems, severe headaches, strokes, epileptic seizures, and in rare cases death.”3

The problem, however, is not confined to the border region, as illegal immigrants have rapidly spread across the country into many new economic sectors such as food processing, construction, and hospitality services.

Typhoid struck Silver Spring, Maryland, in 1992 when an immigrant from the Third World (who had been working in food service in the United States for almost two years) transmitted the bacteria through food at the McDonald’s where she worked. River blindness, malaria, and guinea worm, have all been brought to Northern Virginia by immigration.4"

http://www.fairus.org/issue/illegal-immigration-and-public-health


Statement on behalf of the American Medical Association to the Committee on Public Works and Transportation, U.S. House of Representatives, May 7, 1991.
Liu, Yecai, et al., “Oveseas Screening for Tuberculosis in U.S.-Bound Immigrants and Refugees,” New England Journal of Medicine, June 4, 2009.
_Houston Chronicle_, November 3, 1992.
Influx of Exotic Diseases Keep Doctors Hopping,” _Fairfax Journal_, May 8, 1992.
"Health officials say there is a correlation between increases in tuberculosis cases in recent years and the influx of residents from countries where disease prevention is substandard.” “36 Students in Alexandria Test Positive for TB Exposure,” _Washington Pos_t, June 8, 1995.
"Taking it to the Streets" _Los Angeles Times_, October 2, 1993.
Employee Benefit Research Group study, January 1995. “The study suggests the very high degree to which that population [illegal aliens] is contributing to uncompensated costs.” EBRI President Dallas Salisbury, _Washington Post_, January 25, 1995.
Assessment of Potential Impact of Undocumented Person on National Health Reform, National Health Foundation, April 14, 1993.
See [URL='http://www.fairus.org/issue/PageNavigator/issues/publications/']FAIR publications.

Madeleine Peiner Cosman, Ph.D., Esq. “Illegal Aliens and American Medicine,” _Journal of American Physicians and Surgeons_, Spring 2005.
[/URL]


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## koshergrl

rawmilkmike said:


> Darlene said:
> 
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> konradv said:
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> 
> 
> 
> 
> Darlene said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> konradv said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Rotagilla said:
> 
> 
> 
> People drank raw milk for thousands of years before pasteurization was invented.
> ..but I understand you (OP) need to support statist policies in government.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> True, but many died because of it and the life expectancy was much lower.  You want to go back to those days?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I doubt milk has had anything to do with life expectancy.
> Just like its not raw eggs that make you sick but rather the bacteria on the shell (it comes out of a chicken's ass). If a cow's udders aren't cleaned properly, there is the chance of getting sick.
> Pasteurization kills off not only harmful bacteria but beneficial bacteria as well.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Not exactly my point.  The poster pointed to one thing in the past and I pointed to another.  The aren't related except that just because something was true in the past, doesn't automatically make it good and/or true.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You were implying that life expectancy was lower than it is today because of raw milk. Many sicknesses and diseases started disappearing when hygiene and cleanliness started improving, including with food. You need to consider the living conditions throughout history that influenced our health. There are many health benefits from drinking raw milk that has been handled properly.
> Benefits of Raw Milk LIVESTRONG.COM
> Raw Milk Facts...The Raw Milk Information Guide You Can Trust
> Raw Milk Reality Benefits of Raw Milk
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Emigration and moving people around causes high infant mortality. That is what made the life expectancy seem so low. There are actually fewer centenarians today.
Click to expand...


They don't drink enough milk.


----------



## rawmilkmike

Darlene said:


> konradv said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Rotagilla said:
> 
> 
> 
> People drank raw milk for thousands of years before pasteurization was invented.
> ..but I understand you (OP) need to support statist policies in government.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> True, but many died because of it and the life expectancy was much lower.  You want to go back to those days?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I doubt milk has had anything to do with life expectancy.
> Just like its not raw eggs that make you sick but rather the bacteria on the shell (it comes out of a chicken's ass). If a cow's udders aren't cleaned properly, there is the chance of getting sick.
> Pasteurization kills off not only harmful bacteria but beneficial bacteria as well.
Click to expand...

How do we know that bacteria on the shell has made anyone sick. These are epidemiological associations. There is no proof of cause.


----------



## koshergrl

rawmilkmike said:


> Darlene said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> konradv said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Rotagilla said:
> 
> 
> 
> People drank raw milk for thousands of years before pasteurization was invented.
> ..but I understand you (OP) need to support statist policies in government.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> True, but many died because of it and the life expectancy was much lower.  You want to go back to those days?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I doubt milk has had anything to do with life expectancy.
> Just like its not raw eggs that make you sick but rather the bacteria on the shell (it comes out of a chicken's ass). If a cow's udders aren't cleaned properly, there is the chance of getting sick.
> Pasteurization kills off not only harmful bacteria but beneficial bacteria as well.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> How do we know that bacteria on the shell has made anyone sick. These are epidemiological associations. There is no proof of cause.
Click to expand...


Or we could just not hire undocumented aliens to work in dairies. 

Problem solved.


----------



## rawmilkmike

koshergrl said:


> rawmilkmike said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> koshergrl said:
> 
> 
> 
> ""What we've discovered is that an employee had not been thoroughly cleaning the udders of the cows," Larry Lewis with the Utah Department of Agriculture and Food told CNN affiliate KSL. "That is introducing contamination, manure and feces that are in that area into the milk, which is a major problem."
> 
> I imagine this was an undocumented immigrant worker.
> 
> They often work in dairies. They also test positive for TB quite frequently.
> 
> Cool...let's encourage more undocumented illegals to jump the borders, and put them to work handling our food. Good idea!
> 
> 45 in Utah have campylobacteriosis from raw milk - CNN.com
> 
> 
> 
> They seldom if ever work in dairies. They also seldom test positive for TB.
> 
> 
> To date, 45 cases of diarrhea which MAY HAVE BEEN Campylobacter infections have been reported in people who indicated that they MAY HAVE CONSUMED some raw milk OR CREAM in the WEEK before their DIARRHEA began. Larry Lewis with the Utah Department of Agriculture and Food, SPECULATES THAT MAYBE an employee had not been thoroughly cleaning the udders of the cows properly.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Educate yourself:
> 
> '
> According to Dr. Laurence Nickey, director of the El Paso heath district “Contagious diseases that are generally considered to have been controlled in the United States are readily evident along the border ... The incidence of tuberculosis in El Paso County is twice that of the U.S. rate. Dr. Nickey also states that leprosy, which is considered by most Americans to be a disease of the Third World, is readily evident along the U.S.-Mexico border and that dysentery is several times the U.S. rate ... People have come to the border for economic opportunities, but the necessary sewage treatment facilities, public water systems, environmental enforcement, and medical care have not been made available to them, causing a severe risk to health and well being of people on both sides of the border.”1
> 
> A June, 2009 article in the New England Journal of Medicine noted that a majority (57.8%) of all new cases of tuberculosis in the United States in 2007 were diagnosed in foreign-born persons. The TB infection rate among foreign-born persons was 9.8 times as high as that among U.S.-born persons.2 The article documents the medical testing process for TB required of immigrants and refugees, and this points to foreigners who are unscreened, especially the illegal alien population as the logical source of this disproportionate rate of TB incidence. It should also be kept in mind that among U.S. citizens who contract TB their exposure to the disease may well have come from exposure to a non-U.S. citizen.
> 
> “The pork tapeworm, which thrives in Latin America and Mexico, is showing up along the U.S. border, threatening to ravage victims with symptoms ranging from seizures to death. ... The same [Mexican] underclass has migrated north to find jobs on the border, bringing the parasite and the sickness—cysticercosis—its eggs can cause[.] Cysts that form around the larvae usually lodge in the brain and destroy tissue, causing hallucinations, speech and vision problems, severe headaches, strokes, epileptic seizures, and in rare cases death.”3
> 
> The problem, however, is not confined to the border region, as illegal immigrants have rapidly spread across the country into many new economic sectors such as food processing, construction, and hospitality services.
> 
> Typhoid struck Silver Spring, Maryland, in 1992 when an immigrant from the Third World (who had been working in food service in the United States for almost two years) transmitted the bacteria through food at the McDonald’s where she worked. River blindness, malaria, and guinea worm, have all been brought to Northern Virginia by immigration.4"
> 
> http://www.fairus.org/issue/illegal-immigration-and-public-health
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Statement on behalf of the American Medical Association to the Committee on Public Works and Transportation, U.S. House of Representatives, May 7, 1991.
> 
> Liu, Yecai, et al., “Oveseas Screening for Tuberculosis in U.S.-Bound Immigrants and Refugees,” New England Journal of Medicine, June 4, 2009.
> 
> _Houston Chronicle_, November 3, 1992.
> 
> Influx of Exotic Diseases Keep Doctors Hopping,” _Fairfax Journal_, May 8, 1992.
> 
> "Health officials say there is a correlation between increases in tuberculosis cases in recent years and the influx of residents from countries where disease prevention is substandard.” “36 Students in Alexandria Test Positive for TB Exposure,” _Washington Pos_t, June 8, 1995.
> 
> "Taking it to the Streets" _Los Angeles Times_, October 2, 1993.
> 
> Employee Benefit Research Group study, January 1995. “The study suggests the very high degree to which that population [illegal aliens] is contributing to uncompensated costs.” EBRI President Dallas Salisbury, _Washington Post_, January 25, 1995.
> 
> Assessment of Potential Impact of Undocumented Person on National Health Reform, National Health Foundation, April 14, 1993.
> 
> See FAIR publications.
> Madeleine Peiner Cosman, Ph.D., Esq. “Illegal Aliens and American Medicine,” _Journal of American Physicians and Surgeons_, Spring 2005.
Click to expand...

The incidence of tuberculosis in the US is 4.6 per 100,000 population. Twice that is only 9.2 per 100,000 population.


----------



## koshergrl

So? The claim of the lunatic fringe is that latin americans don't suffer under a much higher incidence.

They're wrong, as usual. Or lying.


----------



## rawmilkmike

koshergrl said:


> rawmilkmike said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Darlene said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> konradv said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Rotagilla said:
> 
> 
> 
> People drank raw milk for thousands of years before pasteurization was invented.
> ..but I understand you (OP) need to support statist policies in government.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> True, but many died because of it and the life expectancy was much lower.  You want to go back to those days?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I doubt milk has had anything to do with life expectancy.
> Just like its not raw eggs that make you sick but rather the bacteria on the shell (it comes out of a chicken's ass). If a cow's udders aren't cleaned properly, there is the chance of getting sick.
> Pasteurization kills off not only harmful bacteria but beneficial bacteria as well.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> How do we know that bacteria on the shell has made anyone sick. These are epidemiological associations. There is no proof of cause.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Or we could just not hire undocumented aliens to work in dairies.
> 
> Problem solved.
Click to expand...

How many raw milk dairies hire undocumented aliens. The second largest raw milk dairy in California only has 65 cows. Many have only 3 or 4.


The incidence of tuberculosis in El Paso County is apparently 9.2 per 100,000 population. The incidence of tuberculosis in the US is still 4.6 per 100,000 population. It isn’t zero. But when was the last documented case of TB in a raw milk consumer.


----------



## koshergrl

Oh my claim isn't that we're getting tb from undocumented workers in dairies. I simply pointed out that they are more likely to contaminate us.

We're much more likely to pick up worms and ecoli and other nasty bugs from them.

The nature of undocumented workers and their employers means that we really don't know how many are working in the dairy industry. Having known undocumented workers that worked not only in the fields (as we all know) but also in dairies, I'm confident the incidence is quite a bit higher than anyone really appreciates.


----------



## rawmilkmike

konradv said:


> Rotagilla said:
> 
> 
> 
> People drank raw milk for thousands of years before pasteurization was invented.
> ..but I understand you (OP) need to support statist policies in government.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> True, but many died because of it and the life expectancy was much lower.  You want to go back to those days?
Click to expand...

Emigration and moving people around causes high infant mortality. That is what made the life expectancy seem so low. There are actually fewer centenarians today.


----------



## rawmilkmike

koshergrl said:


> Oh my claim isn't that we're getting tb from undocumented workers in dairies. I simply pointed out that they are more likely to contaminate us.
> 
> We're much more likely to pick up worms and ecoli and other nasty bugs from them.
> 
> The nature of undocumented workers and their employers means that we really don't know how many are working in the dairy industry. Having known undocumented workers that worked not only in the fields (as we all know) but also in dairies, I'm confident the incidence is quite a bit higher than anyone really appreciates.


TB is a disease of the poor, malnourished, and immune compromised. So just make sure no one is poor, malnourished, and immune compromised, problem solved, as you say.


----------



## rawmilkmike

koshergrl said:


> So? The claim of the lunatic fringe is that latin americans don't suffer under a much higher incidence.
> 
> They're wrong, as usual. Or lying.


Name calling, the sign of the troll.


----------



## rawmilkmike

koshergrl said:


> rawmilkmike said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Darlene said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> konradv said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Darlene said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> konradv said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Rotagilla said:
> 
> 
> 
> People drank raw milk for thousands of years before pasteurization was invented.
> ..but I understand you (OP) need to support statist policies in government.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> True, but many died because of it and the life expectancy was much lower.  You want to go back to those days?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I doubt milk has had anything to do with life expectancy.
> Just like its not raw eggs that make you sick but rather the bacteria on the shell (it comes out of a chicken's ass). If a cow's udders aren't cleaned properly, there is the chance of getting sick.
> Pasteurization kills off not only harmful bacteria but beneficial bacteria as well.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Not exactly my point.  The poster pointed to one thing in the past and I pointed to another.  The aren't related except that just because something was true in the past, doesn't automatically make it good and/or true.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You were implying that life expectancy was lower than it is today because of raw milk. Many sicknesses and diseases started disappearing when hygiene and cleanliness started improving, including with food. You need to consider the living conditions throughout history that influenced our health. There are many health benefits from drinking raw milk that has been handled properly.
> Benefits of Raw Milk LIVESTRONG.COM
> Raw Milk Facts...The Raw Milk Information Guide You Can Trust
> Raw Milk Reality Benefits of Raw Milk
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Emigration and moving people around causes high infant mortality. That is what made the life expectancy seem so low. There are actually fewer centenarians today.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> They don't drink enough milk.
Click to expand...

Jokes, another sign of the troll.


----------



## rawmilkmike

koshergrl said:


> Dont Taz Me Bro said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> koshergrl said:
> 
> 
> 
> I imagine this was an undocumented immigrant worker.
> 
> They often work in dairies. They also test positive for TB quite frequently.
> 
> Cool...let's encourage more undocumented illegals to jump the borders, and put them to work handling our food. Good idea!
> 
> 45 in Utah have campylobacteriosis from raw milk - CNN.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You imagine this scenario due to your personal bias and bigotry.  Do you have any evidence to back up your claim?  No, of course you don't.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> "
> *Who should get tested for TB?*
> 
> A person who has symptoms of active TB disease
> A person who has been exposed to someone (a family member, friend, or co-worker) who has active TB disease
> A person who has HIV infection or certain medical illnesses such as diabetes or chronic kidney failure
> A person who is taking steroid or other immune suppressing drugs for chronic medical conditions
> A person who lives or works in a homeless shelter, prison, hospital, nursing home or other similar group setting
> *A person who has recently come to the U.S. from a region with a lot of active TB* such as Africa, Asia, the Caribbean, Eastern Europe, and *Latin America"*
> Tuberculosis United Federation of Teachers
Click to expand...

So, are they "a family member, friend, or co-worker"?


----------



## rawmilkmike

I.P.Freely said:


> I think gun owners should be the only people  allowed to buy raw milk.


Oh, you mean only rich republicans.


----------



## koshergrl

rawmilkmike said:


> koshergrl said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dont Taz Me Bro said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> koshergrl said:
> 
> 
> 
> I imagine this was an undocumented immigrant worker.
> 
> They often work in dairies. They also test positive for TB quite frequently.
> 
> Cool...let's encourage more undocumented illegals to jump the borders, and put them to work handling our food. Good idea!
> 
> 45 in Utah have campylobacteriosis from raw milk - CNN.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You imagine this scenario due to your personal bias and bigotry.  Do you have any evidence to back up your claim?  No, of course you don't.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> "
> *Who should get tested for TB?*
> 
> A person who has symptoms of active TB disease
> A person who has been exposed to someone (a family member, friend, or co-worker) who has active TB disease
> A person who has HIV infection or certain medical illnesses such as diabetes or chronic kidney failure
> A person who is taking steroid or other immune suppressing drugs for chronic medical conditions
> A person who lives or works in a homeless shelter, prison, hospital, nursing home or other similar group setting
> *A person who has recently come to the U.S. from a region with a lot of active TB* such as Africa, Asia, the Caribbean, Eastern Europe, and *Latin America"*
> Tuberculosis United Federation of Teachers
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> So, are they "a family member, friend, or co-worker"?
Click to expand...


None of the above.


----------



## koshergrl

"A survey by Cornell University found that 2,600 Spanish-speaking people work on New York dairy farms. Of them, two thirds or more are here illegally."

What undocumented dairy workers think of immigration reform News from North Country Public Radio


----------



## koshergrl

"
*"If I was to lose them, I don't know how we'd get the job done"*

Mexican banda music blares in a milk parlor down the road. The farmer who owns *this* place doesn't want to give his name because he's fairly certain some of his workers are undocumented. He says he lives with the fear of a bust or an immigration audit every day.

"If they were to come in and they were to discover that perhaps some of these guys aren't legal, and I was to lose them, I don't know how we'd get the job done the next milking."
What undocumented dairy workers think of immigration reform News from North Country Public Radio


----------



## koshergrl

"They milk through the long winter, and clean frozen manure when the temperature drops below zero and the cows breathe heavy clouds of steam into the pre-dawn air. They milk in spring when everywhere there’s mud. In summer, they milk as the sun paints the barn walls with the same golden hue that lit their walks with a sweetheart or friend in their distant villages. It seems such a simple pleasure, but for the maybe 2,000 dairy workers in Vermont without legal papers..."

In This State For Mexican workers Vermont a land of milk and money

Again. My mama told me..don't get raw milk from places that have undocumented workers. Unless you want to get worms, tb or ecoli.

""If you're an owner, you take risks, fine," said Rebecca Fuentes, a member of the group. But she said it's different for dairy workers, many of whom are undocumented immigrants."

"Fuentes said workers aren't trained properly, may not have protective equipment and work very long hours, often without a day off."

"Alvarez, an undocumented immigrant from Mexico, was working on the Chenango County farm for a few weeks when he was attacked by the bull...."



Dairy dangers As production rises so do concerns about farm workers safety - Times Union


----------



## Two Thumbs

konradv said:


> Here's a little something to think about for those who keep telling us the government should stay out of our business and allow free sale of raw milk.
> 
> 45 in Utah have campylobacteriosis from raw milk - CNN.com


*Treatment[edit]*
The infection is usually self-limiting, and in most cases, symptomatic treatment by liquid and electrolyte replacement is enough in human infections.[8]


the fucking horror


----------



## koshergrl

Yes, well, they insist that this respiratory bug is nothing to worry about too...while at the same time telling us that kids are being hospitalized and put on iron lungs.


----------



## koshergrl

"
Indeed, among immigrants, dairy farms are prized jobs. The money is better and the work is year-round, so they don't have to move their families back and forth following the growing seasons. As the immigration debate rages nationally - with some states deciding they need to enforce immigration laws themselves - the simple fact is that dairy farmers and migrant workers need each other.

Of the more than 12,000 hired workers on Wisconsin's dairy farms, roughly 40% are immigrants, according to UW-Madison associate professor Jill Harrison, who has written several studies on migrant labor in the dairy industry. The reliance on hired immigrants increases with the size of the farm. The majority of immigrant workers - 88.5% - come from Mexico, while most of the rest come from Central and South America.

"If there was a crackdown [on these workers], the dairy industry would face difficult times," Harrison says. "Cows need to be milked a couple of times a day."

Got migrants Undocumented workers are integral to the survival of Wisconsin dairy farms - Isthmus

Don't drink raw milk from dairy farms with undocumented workers, and you'll be just fine.


----------



## rawmilkmike

koshergrl said:


> rawmilkmike said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> koshergrl said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dont Taz Me Bro said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> koshergrl said:
> 
> 
> 
> I imagine this was an undocumented immigrant worker.
> 
> They often work in dairies. They also test positive for TB quite frequently.
> 
> Cool...let's encourage more undocumented illegals to jump the borders, and put them to work handling our food. Good idea!
> 
> 45 in Utah have campylobacteriosis from raw milk - CNN.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You imagine this scenario due to your personal bias and bigotry.  Do you have any evidence to back up your claim?  No, of course you don't.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> "
> *Who should get tested for TB?*
> 
> A person who has symptoms of active TB disease
> A person who has been exposed to someone (a family member, friend, or co-worker) who has active TB disease
> A person who has HIV infection or certain medical illnesses such as diabetes or chronic kidney failure
> A person who is taking steroid or other immune suppressing drugs for chronic medical conditions
> A person who lives or works in a homeless shelter, prison, hospital, nursing home or other similar group setting
> *A person who has recently come to the U.S. from a region with a lot of active TB* such as Africa, Asia, the Caribbean, Eastern Europe, and *Latin America"*
> Tuberculosis United Federation of Teachers
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> So, are they "a family member, friend, or co-worker"?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> None of the above.
Click to expand...

So then what is your issue?


----------



## koshergrl

I already stated my issue. X2 for you. I said that undocumented workers pose a higher health risk in dairies, and that statement was challenged...on two levels..#1, that they aren't really a higher health risk (which we all know is hogwash) and #2, that there isn't a high percental of undocumented illegals working in the dairy industry.

So I supported my statements.

So what's your issue?


----------



## rawmilkmike

koshergrl said:


> "
> Indeed, among immigrants, dairy farms are prized jobs. The money is better and the work is year-round, so they don't have to move their families back and forth following the growing seasons. As the immigration debate rages nationally - with some states deciding they need to enforce immigration laws themselves - the simple fact is that dairy farmers and migrant workers need each other.
> 
> Of the more than 12,000 hired workers on Wisconsin's dairy farms, roughly 40% are immigrants, according to UW-Madison associate professor Jill Harrison, who has written several studies on migrant labor in the dairy industry. The reliance on hired immigrants increases with the size of the farm. The majority of immigrant workers - 88.5% - come from Mexico, while most of the rest come from Central and South America.
> 
> "If there was a crackdown [on these workers], the dairy industry would face difficult times," Harrison says. "Cows need to be milked a couple of times a day."
> 
> Got migrants Undocumented workers are integral to the survival of Wisconsin dairy farms - Isthmus
> 
> Don't drink raw milk from dairy farms with undocumented workers, and you'll be just fine.


"550 milk cows in Buffalo County" That doesn't sound like a raw milk dairy.


----------



## mdk

I know the consequences of my actions. I don't need the government to make these choices for me. I am of sound mind and I am very capable making these decisions on my own without the help of the state.


----------



## chikenwing

Darlene said:


> The Health Benefits of Raw Milk from Grass-Fed Animals A Campaign for Real MilkA Campaign for Real Milk
> 
> Raw Milk Reality Benefits of Raw Milk
> 
> Food Inc. and the Milk Men CMH Gourmand



My family grew up on fresh raw milk right out of the bulk tank,good as it gets not one problem ever,unless you didn't shake the milk bottle before you poured some,other wise ya get all cream.


----------



## rawmilkmike

koshergrl said:


> Don't drink raw milk from a dairy that hires illegals.
> 
> My mom taught me that.
> 
> PS..we never got sick from raw milk.


Has anyone?


----------



## dblack

People are too stupid to make these kinds of judgements for themselves. We need government to protect us by making the call for us. It's all good because we have democratic government. You know, "of the people, by the people" etc....

Uh... wait a minute. Hmmm....


----------



## skye

rawmilkmike said:


> skye said:
> 
> 
> 
> Fortunately I am allergic to cows milk. I only drink soy milk.
> 
> 
> 
> Raw milk cures food allergies.
Click to expand...



my eye.


----------



## koshergrl

rawmilkmike said:


> koshergrl said:
> 
> 
> 
> Don't drink raw milk from a dairy that hires illegals.
> 
> My mom taught me that.
> 
> PS..we never got sick from raw milk.
> 
> 
> 
> Has anyone?
Click to expand...


Gotten sick from raw milk?

Have you read the OP?


----------



## rawmilkmike

koshergrl said:


> I already stated my issue. X2 for you. I said that undocumented workers pose a higher health risk in dairies, and that statement was challenged...on two levels..#1, that they aren't really a higher health risk (which we all know is hogwash) and #2, that there isn't a high percental of undocumented illegals working in the dairy industry.
> 
> So I supported my statements.
> 
> So what's your issue?


First, the subject of illegal aliens is a red herring. It's an attempt to change the subject to republican dog whistle politics when we are talking about the banning of raw milk.

Second, The average dairy farm in Wisconsin is 100 cows not 500 or 27,000. The average raw milk dairy is somewhere between 3 and 65, not to likely to be hiring any full time migrant farm hands from Mexico.

Third, is there really a choice if there is only one farmer within 100 miles willing to sell raw milk directly to consumers?

Fourth, when was the last documented case of TB in a raw milk consumer?

Fifth, you didn't say “higher health risk” you said “They also test positive for TB quite frequently.” So you are backpedaling and trying to make a straw-man.

Sixth, of all the issues, you want to warn raw milk consumers about Mexicans? How about raising the minimum wage or requiring 24 paid holidays and 6 weeks paid vacation like in Europe? What do you think that would do to the unemployment rate in this country?

Seventh, how much of our food even comes from the US?

Eighth, if we weren't selling our cheap government subsidized corn down there they wouldn't be looking for work up here.

Ninth, are we talking about undocumented workers, immigrants, or just Mexican in general?


----------



## koshergrl

Meh.

Don't drink raw milk that's been handled by illegals. As I've shown, they are more likely to infect you with tb and a variety of other wonderful bugs.

We bought raw milk (when we didn't have our own cows) ONLY from people we knew, and trusted, and who milked the cows themselves.

Never sick. Not in all the years we bought raw milk from locals, or drank our own.


----------



## rawmilkmike

koshergrl said:


> rawmilkmike said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> koshergrl said:
> 
> 
> 
> Don't drink raw milk from a dairy that hires illegals.
> 
> My mom taught me that.
> 
> PS..we never got sick from raw milk.
> 
> 
> 
> Has anyone?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Gotten sick from raw milk?
> 
> Have you read the OP?
Click to expand...

Have you? Where's their evidence?


----------



## rawmilkmike

skye said:


> rawmilkmike said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> skye said:
> 
> 
> 
> Fortunately I am allergic to cows milk. I only drink soy milk.
> 
> 
> 
> Raw milk cures food allergies.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> my eye.
Click to expand...

Switch to raw milk for a few months. See what happens. You don't have a weakened immune system do you?


----------



## koshergrl

rawmilkmike said:


> koshergrl said:
> 
> 
> 
> I already stated my issue. X2 for you. I said that undocumented workers pose a higher health risk in dairies, and that statement was challenged...on two levels..#1, that they aren't really a higher health risk (which we all know is hogwash) and #2, that there isn't a high percental of undocumented illegals working in the dairy industry.
> 
> So I supported my statements.
> 
> So what's your issue?
> 
> 
> 
> First, the subject of illegal aliens is a red herring. It's an attempt to change the subject to republican dog whistle politics when we are talking about the banning of raw milk.
> 
> Second, The average dairy farm in Wisconsin is 100 cows not 500 or 27,000. The average raw milk dairy is somewhere between 3 and 65, not to likely to be hiring any full time migrant farm hands from Mexico.
> 
> Third, is there really a choice if there is only one farmer within 100 miles willing to sell raw milk directly to consumers.
> 
> Fourth, when was the last documented case of TB in a raw milk consumer.
> 
> Fifth, you didn't say “higher health risk” you said “They also test positive for TB quite frequently.” So you are backpedaling and trying to make a straw-man.
> 
> Sixth, of all the issues, you want to warn raw milk consumers about Mexicans? How about raising the minimum wage or requiring 24 paid holidays and 6 weeks paid vacation like in Europe? What do you think that would do to the unemployment rate in this country?
> 
> Seventh, how much of our food even comes from the US?
> 
> Eighth, if we weren't selling our cheap government subsidized corn down there they would be looking for work up here.
> 
> Ninth, are we talking about undocumented workers, immigrants, or just Mexican in general?
Click to expand...


First, no, the topic of illegals ISN'T a red herring, when we are talking about how unhealthy raw milk is, based on the fact that a dairy worker infected a bunch of people with a case of the nasties. Raw milk is as dangerous as the people who handle it, and a lot of the people who are handling the milk in the dairies are ILLEGALS and therefore the risk of infection is HIGHER. 

And given this " It's an attempt to change the subject to republican dog whistle politics when we are talking about the banning of raw milk" you really shouldn't be talking about red herrings anyway. I will just assume you felt you had to make a bogus accusation in order to justify your own ridiculous red herring.

Second, your second point is irrelevant.
Third, yes there is a choice, that choice is to not buy raw milk from morons like you who apparently don't give a shit if their undocumented workers are infecting people.

Fourth, "Several infectious diseases that are rare in the native US population occur often in the Latin American population (table 1). Risk factors for these infections include limited access to safe food and water, overcrowding, poor nutrition, and exposure to insect vectors. The infections noted in immigrants from Latin America partly reflect these exposures. For example, fecal contamination is common and results in an increased risk for enteric infections. Animal husbandry practices are less safe in Latin America than in the United States, and meat products are often sold informally without screening for parasites having been done. Milk products may not be pasteurized. Overcrowding and poor nutrition may amplify transmission of _Mycobacterium tuberculosis_ and other respiratory pathogens. These exposures may continue after immigration to the United States [2]." Nough said. Infections in Hispanic Immigrants I am of the opinion that we take steps to AVOID infection of our milk supply...not wait until someone dies before engaging in safest practices.

Fifth, meh. Quibbling over semantics. Typical lefty obstructionism.

Sixth, I see it as an illegal immigrant issue, not necessarily a *mexican* issue...but you needed (again) a false statement so you could segue into you next big fat red herring, your lament about minimum wage. Sorry, not interested and it has nothing to do with the fact that it's risky to buy raw milk from places that hire illegals.

Seventh, oh look another red herring. Who cares? Not me. No relevance in this thread..but feel free to start another thread about..whatever it is you're trying to say here...

Eighth, again, oh look, a completely random commentary now about corn. Again, how does this influence the fact that it's stupid to buy raw milk that's been handled by undocumented workers? 

Ninth, gads give it a rest, zealot.


----------



## rawmilkmike

mdk said:


> I know the consequences of my actions. I don't need the government to make these choices for me. I am of sound mind and I am very capable making these decisions on my own without the help of the state.


Besides, these people have a conflict of interest. They are not our friends. The are our employees.


----------



## koshergrl

Raw milk actually increases likelihood of allergies.


----------



## koshergrl

"Two years ago, when Oregon parents Jill Brown and Jason Young met Brad and Tricia Salyers, the families had no idea that they would eventually be sharing in a tragedy that sickened four of the Salyers’ children and left Brown and Young’s youngest child, Kylee – 23 months old at the time – with such severe medical complications that she would need a kidney transplant from her mother.
"All of that and more happened beginning in April 2012 when the children were among 19 people – 15 of them under the age of 19 — who fell ill with E. coli O157:H7, a potentially fatal foodborne pathogen. Soon after, Oregon health officials determined that the outbreak was caused by raw milk from Foundation Farm near Wilsonville in Western Oregon — the Salyers’ family farm. Four of the sickened children were hospitalized with kidney failure.

"Foundation Farm had been providing 48 families with raw milk."

A Mom and a Dairyman Plead Don t Feed Children Raw Milk Food Safety News


----------



## ogibillm

if you're drinking raw milk, you're an idiot. 
it really isn't up for debate.


----------



## chikenwing

ogibillm said:


> if you're drinking raw milk, you're an idiot.
> it really isn't up for debate.[/QUOTE
> 
> WTF
> 
> Having grown up in dairy country raised on raw milk,just like thousands of other in the area,just like every other dairy area around the country,you are full of shit. its just as risky to eat the food from road side stands,and local farmers markets,us your brain for more than a dope stash.


----------



## koshergrl

Yes the mutant ecoli brought in by illegals is apparently of a more virulent and deadly strain than the ecoli of yesteryear, incidentally.


----------



## dblack

Just don't drink raw milk offered by the government. And don't take their free blankets either. I've heard stories.


----------



## koshergrl

Amen.

My kids are Indian and I'm freaking over the thought of a rare, but suddenly (like since we opened the floodgates of hell) not so rare, respiratory virus ripping into them.


----------



## koshergrl

Oh my...how timely is this:

"More than 30 Lynn Community Health Center employees and 800 patients are being tested to determine if they were exposed to tuberculosis after center doctors confirmed a case.
Center Director Lori Berry says after confirming the single positive test for tuberculosis in a male health care worker around Labor Day, center medical workers contacted and tested employees as well as patients ‘‘having sufficient exposure to warrant testing.’’

Hundreds tested for TB in Lynn - Health - Boston.com

And where did the worker get it?

From serving immigrants.


----------



## rawmilkmike

koshergrl said:


> Raw milk actually increases likelihood of allergies.


Says who?


----------



## rawmilkmike

koshergrl said:


> Oh my...how timely is this:
> 
> "More than 30 Lynn Community Health Center employees and 800 patients are being tested to determine if they were exposed to tuberculosis after center doctors confirmed a case.
> Center Director Lori Berry says after confirming the single positive test for tuberculosis in a male health care worker around Labor Day, center medical workers contacted and tested employees as well as patients ‘‘having sufficient exposure to warrant testing.’’
> 
> Hundreds tested for TB in Lynn - Health - Boston.com
> 
> And where did the worker get it?
> 
> From serving immigrants.


“Non-citizen residents can become undocumented/illegal/criminal in one of four ways: 1. by unauthorized entry, 2. when the employer fails to pay worker documentation fees, 3. by staying beyond the expiration date of their status or other authorization, or 4. by violating the terms of legal entry.”

“A quarter of all immigrants who have arrived in recent years have at least some college education.”

“How difficult is it to get a work visa for the US?”

“Once you have the job offer it's actually pretty easy. The company that offered you the job will do most of the work.”
…
This is a must see for anyone concerned with this countries new normal. Or big government as some call it.
…
“Dog Whistle Politics: How Coded Racial Appeals Have Reinvented Racism and Wrecked the Middle Class by Ian Haney Lopez”

... 
Listen - Aired January 22, 2014 - 8:00am;
Racism in Politics Wisconsin Public Radio
…
Read - Posted on 2013-12-12;
Dog Whistle Politics How Coded Racial Appeals Have Reinvented Racism and Wrecked the Middle Class Free eBooks Download - EBOOKEE 
…
Watch, Published on Jan 14, 2014;
or
or


----------



## dblack

rawmilkmike said:


> koshergrl said:
> 
> 
> 
> Raw milk actually increases likelihood of allergies.
> 
> 
> 
> Says who?
Click to expand...


Studies have shown! Do as you're told!


----------



## rawmilkmike

dblack said:


> rawmilkmike said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> koshergrl said:
> 
> 
> 
> Raw milk actually increases likelihood of allergies.
> 
> 
> 
> Says who?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Studies have shown! Do as you're told!
Click to expand...

Name one.


----------



## rawmilkmike

dblack said:


> Just don't drink raw milk offered by the government. And don't take their free blankets either. I've heard stories.


Just don't drink pasteurized milk offered by the government.


----------



## rawmilkmike

koshergrl said:


> Yes the mutant ecoli brought in by illegals is apparently of a more virulent and deadly strain than the ecoli of yesteryear, incidentally.


We grow the best ecoli right here in the US of A.


----------



## dblack

rawmilkmike said:


> dblack said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rawmilkmike said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> koshergrl said:
> 
> 
> 
> Raw milk actually increases likelihood of allergies.
> 
> 
> 
> Says who?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Studies have shown! Do as you're told!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Name one.
Click to expand...


Leading experts agree!


----------



## rawmilkmike

ogibillm said:


> if you're drinking raw milk, you're an idiot.
> it really isn't up for debate.


If it were, you'd lose.


----------



## rawmilkmike

dblack said:


> rawmilkmike said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> dblack said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rawmilkmike said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> koshergrl said:
> 
> 
> 
> Raw milk actually increases likelihood of allergies.
> 
> 
> 
> Says who?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Studies have shown! Do as you're told!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Name one.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Leading experts agree!
Click to expand...

Trolling, are we?


----------



## dblack

rawmilkmike said:


> dblack said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rawmilkmike said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> dblack said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rawmilkmike said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> koshergrl said:
> 
> 
> 
> Raw milk actually increases likelihood of allergies.
> 
> 
> 
> Says who?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Studies have shown! Do as you're told!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Name one.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Leading experts agree!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Trolling, are we?
Click to expand...

Or maybe you need to re-calibrate your sarcasm filter.


----------



## rawmilkmike

koshergrl said:


> "Two years ago, when Oregon parents Jill Brown and Jason Young met Brad and Tricia Salyers, the families had no idea that they would eventually be sharing in a tragedy that sickened four of the Salyers’ children and left Brown and Young’s youngest child, Kylee – 23 months old at the time – with such severe medical complications that she would need a kidney transplant from her mother.
> "All of that and more happened beginning in April 2012 when the children were among 19 people – 15 of them under the age of 19 — who fell ill with E. coli O157:H7, a potentially fatal foodborne pathogen. Soon after, Oregon health officials determined that the outbreak was caused by raw milk from Foundation Farm near Wilsonville in Western Oregon — the Salyers’ family farm. Four of the sickened children were hospitalized with kidney failure.
> 
> "Foundation Farm had been providing 48 families with raw milk."
> 
> A Mom and a Dairyman Plead Don t Feed Children Raw Milk Food Safety News


With 3 cows? Ya right.


----------



## gallantwarrior

koshergrl said:


> Raw milk actually increases likelihood of allergies.



Would you please post a citation supporting that statement?


----------



## rawmilkmike

koshergrl said:


> rawmilkmike said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> koshergrl said:
> 
> 
> 
> I already stated my issue. X2 for you. I said that undocumented workers pose a higher health risk in dairies, and that statement was challenged...on two levels..#1, that they aren't really a higher health risk (which we all know is hogwash) and #2, that there isn't a high percental of undocumented illegals working in the dairy industry.
> 
> So I supported my statements.
> 
> So what's your issue?
> 
> 
> 
> First, the subject of illegal aliens is a red herring. It's an attempt to change the subject to republican dog whistle politics when we are talking about the banning of raw milk.
> 
> Second, The average dairy farm in Wisconsin is 100 cows not 500 or 27,000. The average raw milk dairy is somewhere between 3 and 65, not to likely to be hiring any full time migrant farm hands from Mexico.
> 
> Third, is there really a choice if there is only one farmer within 100 miles willing to sell raw milk directly to consumers.
> 
> Fourth, when was the last documented case of TB in a raw milk consumer.
> 
> Fifth, you didn't say “higher health risk” you said “They also test positive for TB quite frequently.” So you are backpedaling and trying to make a straw-man.
> 
> Sixth, of all the issues, you want to warn raw milk consumers about Mexicans? How about raising the minimum wage or requiring 24 paid holidays and 6 weeks paid vacation like in Europe? What do you think that would do to the unemployment rate in this country?
> 
> Seventh, how much of our food even comes from the US?
> 
> Eighth, if we weren't selling our cheap government subsidized corn down there they would be looking for work up here.
> 
> Ninth, are we talking about undocumented workers, immigrants, or just Mexican in general?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> First, no, the topic of illegals ISN'T a red herring, when we are talking about how unhealthy raw milk is, based on the fact that a dairy worker infected a bunch of people with a case of the nasties. Raw milk is as dangerous as the people who handle it, and a lot of the people who are handling the milk in the dairies are ILLEGALS and therefore the risk of infection is HIGHER.
> 
> And given this " It's an attempt to change the subject to republican dog whistle politics when we are talking about the banning of raw milk" you really shouldn't be talking about red herrings anyway. I will just assume you felt you had to make a bogus accusation in order to justify your own ridiculous red herring.
> 
> Second, your second point is irrelevant.
> Third, yes there is a choice, that choice is to not buy raw milk from morons like you who apparently don't give a shit if their undocumented workers are infecting people.
> 
> Fourth, "Several infectious diseases that are rare in the native US population occur often in the Latin American population (table 1). Risk factors for these infections include limited access to safe food and water, overcrowding, poor nutrition, and exposure to insect vectors. The infections noted in immigrants from Latin America partly reflect these exposures. For example, fecal contamination is common and results in an increased risk for enteric infections. Animal husbandry practices are less safe in Latin America than in the United States, and meat products are often sold informally without screening for parasites having been done. Milk products may not be pasteurized. Overcrowding and poor nutrition may amplify transmission of _Mycobacterium tuberculosis_ and other respiratory pathogens. These exposures may continue after immigration to the United States [2]." Nough said. Infections in Hispanic Immigrants I am of the opinion that we take steps to AVOID infection of our milk supply...not wait until someone dies before engaging in safest practices.
> 
> Fifth, meh. Quibbling over semantics. Typical lefty obstructionism.
> 
> Sixth, I see it as an illegal immigrant issue, not necessarily a *mexican* issue...but you needed (again) a false statement so you could segue into you next big fat red herring, your lament about minimum wage. Sorry, not interested and it has nothing to do with the fact that it's risky to buy raw milk from places that hire illegals.
> 
> Seventh, oh look another red herring. Who cares? Not me. No relevance in this thread..but feel free to start another thread about..whatever it is you're trying to say here...
> 
> Eighth, again, oh look, a completely random commentary now about corn. Again, how does this influence the fact that it's stupid to buy raw milk that's been handled by undocumented workers?
> 
> Ninth, gads give it a rest, zealot.
Click to expand...

“a dairy worker infected a bunch of people with a case of the nasties” That was speculation and they didn't say the nasties came from the worker. What makes you think Raw milk can be dangerous?

If you grew up on raw milk you don't know all the illnesses you missed out on and you don't know how dangerous the average American diet is. If raw milk is 9 times safer than pasteurized then it really doesn't matter if it is some times handled by your scary Mexicans.

Do you even know what dog whistle politics is?

I'm a consumer not a producer. I didn't grow up on raw milk so I know the difference. Do you?

“infectious diseases that are rare in the native US population” are not found in raw milk.

Name calling is a sure sign of a weak argument. What were my choices again?

If they do it to them they'll do it to you.

If you don't care what country your food comes from why would you care who handles it here?

I'm sure some of your buddies in the white house let undocumented workers raise their children.

Your entire argument is a straw man since no one is suggesting anyone should buy anything from a company employing undocumented workers. That would be worse than buying from Walmart.


----------



## rawmilkmike

gallantwarrior said:


> koshergrl said:
> 
> 
> 
> Raw milk actually increases likelihood of allergies.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Would you please post a citation supporting that statement?
Click to expand...

She said she was just being sarcastic.


----------



## I.P.Freely

My two brothers and I caught Undulant fever from raw milk, it nearly killed my younger brother.
Undulant fever definition - Medical Dictionary Definitions of Popular Terms Defined on MedTerms


----------



## elektra

raw milk, good stuff, I have drunk gallons of it, gallons and gallons as a kid. I liked the inch of cream on the top.


----------



## rawmilkmike

I.P.Freely said:


> My two brothers and I caught Undulant fever from raw milk, it nearly killed my younger brother.
> Undulant fever definition - Medical Dictionary Definitions of Popular Terms Defined on MedTerms


What makes you think it was caused by raw milk. Was raw milk your only food? Was it you only exposure risk?


----------



## ogibillm

raw milk kills infants. undeniable fact.


----------



## rawmilkmike

ogibillm said:


> raw milk kills infants. undeniable fact.


That's a new one. Where's your proof? The CDC doesn't have any documented deaths from raw milk.


----------



## koshergrl

rawmilkmike said:


> gallantwarrior said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> koshergrl said:
> 
> 
> 
> Raw milk actually increases likelihood of allergies.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Would you please post a citation supporting that statement?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> She said she was just being sarcastic.
Click to expand...


No I didn't.

Though I was engaging in a bit of hyperbole..but just a bit. I then posted articles which adamantly stated that there is absolutely no scientific evidence that raw milk will reduce allergies, and it's stupid to feed raw milk to children, who are the hardest hit by the pathogens that haunt raw milk.


----------



## koshergrl

rawmilkmike said:


> ogibillm said:
> 
> 
> 
> raw milk kills infants. undeniable fact.
> 
> 
> 
> That's a new one. Where's your proof? The CDC doesn't have any documented deaths from raw milk.
Click to expand...


"While many raw milk advocates say it has inherent nutritional advantages and even helps cure or ease the symptoms of ailments such as asthma and various allergies, most food-safety experts discount those claims as anecdotal, saying they’re not based on science. They also warn of the serious risks to human health associated with drinking milk that hasn’t been pasteurized."

A Mom and a Dairyman Plead Don t Feed Children Raw Milk Food Safety News

Oh..and incidentally...

"_Campylobacter _is common in the developing world, and travelers to foreign countries are at risk for becoming infected with _Campylobacter_. Approximately one-fifth (19%) of _Campylobacter_ cases identified in FoodNet are associated with international travel."

CDC - Campylobacter General Information - NCZVED
Don't buy raw milk from people who hire undocumenteds. It's just another illness like tb that you are more likely to catch if you do.


----------



## rawmilkmike

koshergrl said:


> rawmilkmike said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ogibillm said:
> 
> 
> 
> raw milk kills infants. undeniable fact.
> 
> 
> 
> That's a new one. Where's your proof? The CDC doesn't have any documented deaths from raw milk.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> "While many raw milk advocates say it has inherent nutritional advantages and even helps cure or ease the symptoms of ailments such as asthma and various allergies, most food-safety experts discount those claims as anecdotal, saying they’re not based on science. They also warn of the serious risks to human health associated with drinking milk that hasn’t been pasteurized."
> 
> A Mom and a Dairyman Plead Don t Feed Children Raw Milk Food Safety News
> 
> Oh..and incidentally...
> 
> "_Campylobacter _is common in the developing world, and travelers to foreign countries are at risk for becoming infected with _Campylobacter_. Approximately one-fifth (19%) of _Campylobacter_ cases identified in FoodNet are associated with international travel."
> 
> CDC - Campylobacter General Information - NCZVED
> Don't buy raw milk from people who hire undocumenteds. It's just another illness like tb that you are more likely to catch if you do.
Click to expand...

koshergrl says: “raw milk kills infants. undeniable fact.”


rawmilkmike says: “That's a new one. Where's your proof? The CDC doesn't have any documented deaths from raw milk.”


koshergrl is speechless.


----------



## koshergrl

Look again, retard. I didn't say that.


----------



## rawmilkmike

dblack said:


> rawmilkmike said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> dblack said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rawmilkmike said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> dblack said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rawmilkmike said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> koshergrl said:
> 
> 
> 
> Raw milk actually increases likelihood of allergies.
> 
> 
> 
> Says who?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Studies have shown! Do as you're told!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Name one.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Leading experts agree!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Trolling, are we?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Or maybe you need to re-calibrate your sarcasm filter.
Click to expand...

So, you agree koshergrl's statement is absurd.


----------



## rawmilkmike

koshergrl said:


> Look again, retard. I didn't say that.


My bag.

ogibillm said: “raw milk kills infants. undeniable fact.”

rawmilkmike says: “That's a new one. Where's your proof? The CDC doesn't have any documented deaths from raw milk.”

koshergrl spaces out.


----------



## rawmilkmike

koshergrl said:


> rawmilkmike said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> gallantwarrior said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> koshergrl said:
> 
> 
> 
> Raw milk actually increases likelihood of allergies.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Would you please post a citation supporting that statement?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> She said she was just being sarcastic.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No I didn't.
> 
> Though I was engaging in a bit of hyperbole..but just a bit. I then posted articles which adamantly stated that there is absolutely no scientific evidence that raw milk will reduce allergies, and it's stupid to feed raw milk to children, who are the hardest hit by the pathogens that haunt raw milk.
Click to expand...

koshergrl, you are the one suggesting “it's stupid to feed raw milk to children”. You are the one with the burden of proof. I, like millions of other Americans who have switched to raw milk just want to be left alone. We aren't selling anything. If you think I'm lying when I say raw milk cured my hay fever and food allergies fine, then don't drink it.


----------



## dblack

rawmilkmike said:


> dblack said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rawmilkmike said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> dblack said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rawmilkmike said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> dblack said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rawmilkmike said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> koshergrl said:
> 
> 
> 
> Raw milk actually increases likelihood of allergies.
> 
> 
> 
> Says who?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Studies have shown! Do as you're told!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Name one.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Leading experts agree!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Trolling, are we?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Or maybe you need to re-calibrate your sarcasm filter.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> So, you agree koshergrl's statement is absurd.
Click to expand...


Not necessarily. I don't drink raw milk. But i don't think government has any business telling us what to eat or drink. Or think.


----------



## rawmilkmike

koshergrl agrees with ogibillm, “if you're drinking raw milk, you're an idiot. 
it really isn't up for debate.”

“Let food be thy medicine and medicine be thy food.” 
― Hippocrates

“There are in fact two things, science and opinion; the former begets knowledge, the latter ignorance.” 
― Hippocrates

If you think of raw milk as a medicine it's really a no-brainer. How would it's warning label compare to other medications, and how would it's effectiveness compare? The CDC, AMA, and FDA don't claim to have any proof that it doesn't work. They simply say our evidence is not published in their journals etc etc. The only people saying raw milk isn't the best thing since sliced bread are it's competitors.


----------



## rawmilkmike

koshergrl said:


> "Two years ago, when Oregon parents Jill Brown and Jason Young met Brad and Tricia Salyers, the families had no idea that they would eventually be sharing in a tragedy that sickened four of the Salyers’ children and left Brown and Young’s youngest child, Kylee – 23 months old at the time – with such severe medical complications that she would need a kidney transplant from her mother.
> "All of that and more happened beginning in April 2012 when the children were among 19 people – 15 of them under the age of 19 — who fell ill with E. coli O157:H7, a potentially fatal foodborne pathogen. Soon after, Oregon health officials determined that the outbreak was caused by raw milk from Foundation Farm near Wilsonville in Western Oregon — the Salyers’ family farm. Four of the sickened children were hospitalized with kidney failure.
> 
> "Foundation Farm had been providing 48 families with raw milk."
> 
> A Mom and a Dairyman Plead Don t Feed Children Raw Milk Food Safety News


Foundation Farm

That's 19 cases of diarrhea in more than 10 days for a group of over 150 people at a time when the surrounding community was going through it's rash of stomach flu.

The average American gets diarrhea 4 times a year. That means for a group that size over a 10 day period, the national average would be 16.

Did you see any proof that Kylee's diarrhea had anything to do with raw milk.


----------



## rawmilkmike

koshergrl said:


> Raw milk actually increases likelihood of allergies.


This is not hyperbole. It is an outright lie. Pasteurized milk is the one that “increases the likelihood of allergies.” And there is a scientific basis for this statement.


----------



## ogibillm

rawmilkmike said:


> koshergrl said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rawmilkmike said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ogibillm said:
> 
> 
> 
> raw milk kills infants. undeniable fact.
> 
> 
> 
> That's a new one. Where's your proof? The CDC doesn't have any documented deaths from raw milk.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> "While many raw milk advocates say it has inherent nutritional advantages and even helps cure or ease the symptoms of ailments such as asthma and various allergies, most food-safety experts discount those claims as anecdotal, saying they’re not based on science. They also warn of the serious risks to human health associated with drinking milk that hasn’t been pasteurized."
> 
> A Mom and a Dairyman Plead Don t Feed Children Raw Milk Food Safety News
> 
> Oh..and incidentally...
> 
> "_Campylobacter _is common in the developing world, and travelers to foreign countries are at risk for becoming infected with _Campylobacter_. Approximately one-fifth (19%) of _Campylobacter_ cases identified in FoodNet are associated with international travel."
> 
> CDC - Campylobacter General Information - NCZVED
> Don't buy raw milk from people who hire undocumenteds. It's just another illness like tb that you are more likely to catch if you do.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> koshergrl says: “raw milk kills infants. undeniable fact.”
> 
> 
> rawmilkmike says: “That's a new one. Where's your proof? The CDC doesn't have any documented deaths from raw milk.”
> 
> 
> koshergrl is speechless.
Click to expand...




> From 1998 through 2011, 148 outbreaks due to consumption of raw milk or raw milk products were reported to CDC. These resulted in 2,384 illnesses, 284 hospitalizations, and 2 deaths.


CDC - Raw Milk Questions and Answers - Food Safety


> The impact of pasteurized milk on public health was nothing short of astounding. In 1885 the infant mortality rate in New York City was 273 per 1,000 live births -more than 27%. By 1915 the infant mortality rate was 94 per 1,000, a drop of two-thirds.


The Fight for Safe Milk Pasteurization - Neatorama


----------



## ogibillm

rawmilkmike said:


> koshergrl said:
> 
> 
> 
> Raw milk actually increases likelihood of allergies.
> 
> 
> 
> This is not hyperbole. It is an outright lie. Pasteurized milk is the one that “increases the likelihood of allergies.” And there is a scientific basis for this statement.
Click to expand...

no, there isn't.


----------



## I.P.Freely

rawmilkmike said:


> I.P.Freely said:
> 
> 
> 
> My two brothers and I caught Undulant fever from raw milk, it nearly killed my younger brother.
> Undulant fever definition - Medical Dictionary Definitions of Popular Terms Defined on MedTerms
> 
> 
> 
> What makes you think it was caused by raw milk. Was raw milk your only food? Was it you only exposure risk?
Click to expand...

@rawmilkmike
I live in the UK. Undulant fever then was classified as a "notifiable disease" which meant department of health specialist descended on us.This was 55yrs ago and we had milk delivered from our local farm only.The Department of Health came to a very factual conclusion that it was the milk that infected us and six other neighbours kids.


----------



## koshergrl

rawmilkmike said:


> koshergrl agrees with ogibillm, “if you're drinking raw milk, you're an idiot.
> it really isn't up for debate.”
> 
> “Let food be thy medicine and medicine be thy food.”
> ― Hippocrates
> 
> “There are in fact two things, science and opinion; the former begets knowledge, the latter ignorance.”
> ― Hippocrates
> 
> If you think of raw milk as a medicine it's really a no-brainer. How would it's warning label compare to other medications, and how would it's effectiveness compare? The CDC, AMA, and FDA don't claim to have any proof that it doesn't work. They simply say our evidence is not published in their journals etc etc. The only people saying raw milk isn't the best thing since sliced bread are it's competitors.



What the hell are you talking about?

And why prate hippocrates at me? I don't give a shit what hippocrates said, unless he said something about milk..which he didn't.

Your opinion is that raw milk is a great thing to feed kids, that it isn't risky, that it prevents allergies.

The science says the opposite. In fact, the science says the EXACT opposite, and public health professionals are BEGGING people to stop spreading those lies. 

so maybe you should follow hippocrates' advice, bro.


----------



## rawmilkmike

koshergrl said:


> rawmilkmike said:
> 
> 
> 
> koshergrl agrees with ogibillm, “if you're drinking raw milk, you're an idiot.
> it really isn't up for debate.”
> 
> “Let food be thy medicine and medicine be thy food.”
> ― Hippocrates
> 
> “There are in fact two things, science and opinion; the former begets knowledge, the latter ignorance.”
> ― Hippocrates
> 
> If you think of raw milk as a medicine it's really a no-brainer. How would it's warning label compare to other medications, and how would it's effectiveness compare? The CDC, AMA, and FDA don't claim to have any proof that it doesn't work. They simply say our evidence is not published in their journals etc etc. The only people saying raw milk isn't the best thing since sliced bread are it's competitors.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What the hell are you talking about?
> 
> And why prate hippocrates at me? I don't give a shit what hippocrates said, unless he said something about milk..which he didn't.
> 
> Your opinion is that raw milk is a great thing to feed kids, that it isn't risky, that it prevents allergies.
> 
> The science says the opposite. In fact, the science says the EXACT opposite, and public health professionals are BEGGING people to stop spreading those lies.
> 
> so maybe you should follow hippocrates' advice, bro.
Click to expand...

What you mean to say is that public health professionals infer the EXACT opposite. If you knew of a study that says the EXACT opposite I'm sure you would have shared it by now. A competitor making an unsubstantiated inference is not science.


----------



## rawmilkmike

I.P.Freely said:


> rawmilkmike said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I.P.Freely said:
> 
> 
> 
> My two brothers and I caught Undulant fever from raw milk, it nearly killed my younger brother.
> Undulant fever definition - Medical Dictionary Definitions of Popular Terms Defined on MedTerms
> 
> 
> 
> What makes you think it was caused by raw milk. Was raw milk your only food? Was it you only exposure risk?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> @rawmilkmike
> I live in the UK. Undulant fever then was classified as a "notifiable disease" which meant department of health specialist descended on us.This was 55yrs ago and we had milk delivered from our local farm only.The Department of Health came to a very factual conclusion that it was the milk that infected us and six other neighbours kids.
Click to expand...

Was raw milk your only food? Was it your only exposure risk? 55yrs ago did you really have raw milk delivered from your local farm? What facts could have supported such a conclusion? Even today such accusations are not supported by the facts. Currently all 50 states, Puerto Rico and the U.S. Virgin Islands are brucellosis Class Free.


----------



## rawmilkmike

ogibillm said:


> rawmilkmike said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> koshergrl said:
> 
> 
> 
> Raw milk actually increases likelihood of allergies.
> 
> 
> 
> This is not hyperbole. It is an outright lie. Pasteurized milk is the one that “increases the likelihood of allergies.” And there is a scientific basis for this statement.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> no, there isn't.
Click to expand...

“Researchers have determined that drinking pasteurized, homogenized cow’s milk while breastfeeding significantly increases the chances of the infant becoming allergic.

Medical researchers from Bangkok’s Mahidol University tested and followed 62 mothers and their infants through four months of age.”

Drinking Cow s Milk while Breastfeeding Increases Risk of Baby s Allergies R.E.A.L. Natural


----------



## rawmilkmike

ogibillm said:


> rawmilkmike said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> koshergrl said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rawmilkmike said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ogibillm said:
> 
> 
> 
> raw milk kills infants. undeniable fact.
> 
> 
> 
> That's a new one. Where's your proof? The CDC doesn't have any documented deaths from raw milk.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> "While many raw milk advocates say it has inherent nutritional advantages and even helps cure or ease the symptoms of ailments such as asthma and various allergies, most food-safety experts discount those claims as anecdotal, saying they’re not based on science. They also warn of the serious risks to human health associated with drinking milk that hasn’t been pasteurized."
> 
> A Mom and a Dairyman Plead Don t Feed Children Raw Milk Food Safety News
> 
> Oh..and incidentally...
> 
> "_Campylobacter _is common in the developing world, and travelers to foreign countries are at risk for becoming infected with _Campylobacter_. Approximately one-fifth (19%) of _Campylobacter_ cases identified in FoodNet are associated with international travel."
> 
> CDC - Campylobacter General Information - NCZVED
> Don't buy raw milk from people who hire undocumenteds. It's just another illness like tb that you are more likely to catch if you do.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> koshergrl says: “raw milk kills infants. undeniable fact.”
> 
> 
> rawmilkmike says: “That's a new one. Where's your proof? The CDC doesn't have any documented deaths from raw milk.”
> 
> 
> koshergrl is speechless.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> From 1998 through 2011, 148 outbreaks due to consumption of raw milk or raw milk products were reported to CDC. These resulted in 2,384 illnesses, 284 hospitalizations, and 2 deaths.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> CDC - Raw Milk Questions and Answers - Food Safety
> 
> 
> 
> The impact of pasteurized milk on public health was nothing short of astounding. In 1885 the infant mortality rate in New York City was 273 per 1,000 live births -more than 27%. By 1915 the infant mortality rate was 94 per 1,000, a drop of two-thirds.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The Fight for Safe Milk Pasteurization - Neatorama
Click to expand...

It says “raw milk or raw milk products” The two deaths were associated with cheese not milk.

Infant mortality was normally high among immigrants. Have you read some of the concoctions fed to infants back then? There is no evidence that it was ever caused by raw milk. Lack of raw milk maybe.


----------



## rawmilkmike

koshergrl said:


> Oh my...how timely is this:
> 
> "More than 30 Lynn Community Health Center employees and 800 patients are being tested to determine if they were exposed to tuberculosis after center doctors confirmed a case.
> Center Director Lori Berry says after confirming the single positive test for tuberculosis in a male health care worker around Labor Day, center medical workers contacted and tested employees as well as patients ‘‘having sufficient exposure to warrant testing.’’
> 
> Hundreds tested for TB in Lynn - Health - Boston.com
> 
> And where did the worker get it?
> 
> From serving immigrants.


"Male and female immigrants had, respectively, 3.4 and 2.5 years longer life expectancy than the US-born. Compared to their US-born counterparts, black immigrant men and women had, respectively, 9.4 and 7.8 years longer life expectancy, but Chinese, Japanese, and Filipino immigrants had lower life expectancy. Most immigrant groups had lower risks of infant mortality and low birthweight than the US-born. Consistent with the acculturation hypothesis, immigrants' risks of disability and chronic disease morbidity increased with increasing length of residence."

Health life expectancy and mor... Can J Public Health. 2004 May-Jun - PubMed - NCBI


----------



## gallantwarrior

elektra said:


> raw milk, good stuff, I have drunk gallons of it, gallons and gallons as a kid. I liked the inch of cream on the top.



Cow's milk!  I have goats and the cream (fat) component is more finely distributed, rather like naturally homogenized, very little cream on top.  Just as delicious...and healthy, raw goat's milk.


----------



## elektra

gallantwarrior said:


> elektra said:
> 
> 
> 
> raw milk, good stuff, I have drunk gallons of it, gallons and gallons as a kid. I liked the inch of cream on the top.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cow's milk!  I have goats and the cream (fat) component is more finely distributed, rather like naturally homogenized, very little cream on top.  Just as delicious...and healthy, raw goat's milk.
Click to expand...

all cream is healthy


----------



## ogibillm

rawmilkmike said:


> ogibillm said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rawmilkmike said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> koshergrl said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rawmilkmike said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ogibillm said:
> 
> 
> 
> raw milk kills infants. undeniable fact.
> 
> 
> 
> That's a new one. Where's your proof? The CDC doesn't have any documented deaths from raw milk.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> "While many raw milk advocates say it has inherent nutritional advantages and even helps cure or ease the symptoms of ailments such as asthma and various allergies, most food-safety experts discount those claims as anecdotal, saying they’re not based on science. They also warn of the serious risks to human health associated with drinking milk that hasn’t been pasteurized."
> 
> A Mom and a Dairyman Plead Don t Feed Children Raw Milk Food Safety News
> 
> Oh..and incidentally...
> 
> "_Campylobacter _is common in the developing world, and travelers to foreign countries are at risk for becoming infected with _Campylobacter_. Approximately one-fifth (19%) of _Campylobacter_ cases identified in FoodNet are associated with international travel."
> 
> CDC - Campylobacter General Information - NCZVED
> Don't buy raw milk from people who hire undocumenteds. It's just another illness like tb that you are more likely to catch if you do.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> koshergrl says: “raw milk kills infants. undeniable fact.”
> 
> 
> rawmilkmike says: “That's a new one. Where's your proof? The CDC doesn't have any documented deaths from raw milk.”
> 
> 
> koshergrl is speechless.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> From 1998 through 2011, 148 outbreaks due to consumption of raw milk or raw milk products were reported to CDC. These resulted in 2,384 illnesses, 284 hospitalizations, and 2 deaths.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> CDC - Raw Milk Questions and Answers - Food Safety
> 
> 
> 
> The impact of pasteurized milk on public health was nothing short of astounding. In 1885 the infant mortality rate in New York City was 273 per 1,000 live births -more than 27%. By 1915 the infant mortality rate was 94 per 1,000, a drop of two-thirds.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The Fight for Safe Milk Pasteurization - Neatorama
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> It says “raw milk or raw milk products” The two deaths were associated with cheese not milk.
> 
> Infant mortality was normally high among immigrants. Have you read some of the concoctions fed to infants back then? There is no evidence that it was ever caused by raw milk. Lack of raw milk maybe.
Click to expand...

 so just what in the hell changed, other than pasteurization, that caused the dramatic decrease in infant mortality? nothing. nothing that can account for that change except kids stopped getting raw milk.

you want to be an idiot and drink raw milk, go ahead. 

just stop lying to people and saying it's safe. it's not. it's dangerous. it can kill. pretending otherwise is ignorant and flies in the face of science.


----------



## ogibillm

rawmilkmike said:


> ogibillm said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rawmilkmike said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> koshergrl said:
> 
> 
> 
> Raw milk actually increases likelihood of allergies.
> 
> 
> 
> This is not hyperbole. It is an outright lie. Pasteurized milk is the one that “increases the likelihood of allergies.” And there is a scientific basis for this statement.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> no, there isn't.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> “Researchers have determined that drinking pasteurized, homogenized cow’s milk while breastfeeding significantly increases the chances of the infant becoming allergic.
> 
> Medical researchers from Bangkok’s Mahidol University tested and followed 62 mothers and their infants through four months of age.”
> 
> Drinking Cow s Milk while Breastfeeding Increases Risk of Baby s Allergies R.E.A.L. Natural
Click to expand...

your studies are damning of all cow's milk. there is no basis to believe there is or would be any difference between using unpasteurized and pasteurized cow's milk.

there is plenty of reason to believe that using raw milk would introduce the mother and child to all kinds of nasty bacteria though.


----------



## rawmilkmike

ogibillm said:


> rawmilkmike said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ogibillm said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rawmilkmike said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> koshergrl said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rawmilkmike said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ogibillm said:
> 
> 
> 
> raw milk kills infants. undeniable fact.
> 
> 
> 
> That's a new one. Where's your proof? The CDC doesn't have any documented deaths from raw milk.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> "While many raw milk advocates say it has inherent nutritional advantages and even helps cure or ease the symptoms of ailments such as asthma and various allergies, most food-safety experts discount those claims as anecdotal, saying they’re not based on science. They also warn of the serious risks to human health associated with drinking milk that hasn’t been pasteurized."
> 
> A Mom and a Dairyman Plead Don t Feed Children Raw Milk Food Safety News
> 
> Oh..and incidentally...
> 
> "_Campylobacter _is common in the developing world, and travelers to foreign countries are at risk for becoming infected with _Campylobacter_. Approximately one-fifth (19%) of _Campylobacter_ cases identified in FoodNet are associated with international travel."
> 
> CDC - Campylobacter General Information - NCZVED
> Don't buy raw milk from people who hire undocumenteds. It's just another illness like tb that you are more likely to catch if you do.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> koshergrl says: “raw milk kills infants. undeniable fact.”
> 
> 
> rawmilkmike says: “That's a new one. Where's your proof? The CDC doesn't have any documented deaths from raw milk.”
> 
> 
> koshergrl is speechless.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> From 1998 through 2011, 148 outbreaks due to consumption of raw milk or raw milk products were reported to CDC. These resulted in 2,384 illnesses, 284 hospitalizations, and 2 deaths.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> CDC - Raw Milk Questions and Answers - Food Safety
> 
> 
> 
> The impact of pasteurized milk on public health was nothing short of astounding. In 1885 the infant mortality rate in New York City was 273 per 1,000 live births -more than 27%. By 1915 the infant mortality rate was 94 per 1,000, a drop of two-thirds.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The Fight for Safe Milk Pasteurization - Neatorama
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> It says “raw milk or raw milk products” The two deaths were associated with cheese not milk.
> 
> Infant mortality was normally high among immigrants. Have you read some of the concoctions fed to infants back then? There is no evidence that it was ever caused by raw milk. Lack of raw milk maybe.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> so just what in the hell changed, other than pasteurization, that caused the dramatic decrease in infant mortality? nothing. nothing that can account for that change except kids stopped getting raw milk.
> 
> you want to be an idiot and drink raw milk, go ahead.
> 
> just stop lying to people and saying it's safe. it's not. it's dangerous. it can kill. pretending otherwise is ignorant and flies in the face of science.
Click to expand...

What science? Between the CDC, FDA, AMA, and yourself if you had any proof you would have produced it by now. There are millions of Americans that KNOW the truth.


----------



## ogibillm

rawmilkmike said:


> ogibillm said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rawmilkmike said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ogibillm said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rawmilkmike said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> koshergrl said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rawmilkmike said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ogibillm said:
> 
> 
> 
> raw milk kills infants. undeniable fact.
> 
> 
> 
> That's a new one. Where's your proof? The CDC doesn't have any documented deaths from raw milk.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> "While many raw milk advocates say it has inherent nutritional advantages and even helps cure or ease the symptoms of ailments such as asthma and various allergies, most food-safety experts discount those claims as anecdotal, saying they’re not based on science. They also warn of the serious risks to human health associated with drinking milk that hasn’t been pasteurized."
> 
> A Mom and a Dairyman Plead Don t Feed Children Raw Milk Food Safety News
> 
> Oh..and incidentally...
> 
> "_Campylobacter _is common in the developing world, and travelers to foreign countries are at risk for becoming infected with _Campylobacter_. Approximately one-fifth (19%) of _Campylobacter_ cases identified in FoodNet are associated with international travel."
> 
> CDC - Campylobacter General Information - NCZVED
> Don't buy raw milk from people who hire undocumenteds. It's just another illness like tb that you are more likely to catch if you do.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> koshergrl says: “raw milk kills infants. undeniable fact.”
> 
> 
> rawmilkmike says: “That's a new one. Where's your proof? The CDC doesn't have any documented deaths from raw milk.”
> 
> 
> koshergrl is speechless.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> From 1998 through 2011, 148 outbreaks due to consumption of raw milk or raw milk products were reported to CDC. These resulted in 2,384 illnesses, 284 hospitalizations, and 2 deaths.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> CDC - Raw Milk Questions and Answers - Food Safety
> 
> 
> 
> The impact of pasteurized milk on public health was nothing short of astounding. In 1885 the infant mortality rate in New York City was 273 per 1,000 live births -more than 27%. By 1915 the infant mortality rate was 94 per 1,000, a drop of two-thirds.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The Fight for Safe Milk Pasteurization - Neatorama
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> It says “raw milk or raw milk products” The two deaths were associated with cheese not milk.
> 
> Infant mortality was normally high among immigrants. Have you read some of the concoctions fed to infants back then? There is no evidence that it was ever caused by raw milk. Lack of raw milk maybe.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> so just what in the hell changed, other than pasteurization, that caused the dramatic decrease in infant mortality? nothing. nothing that can account for that change except kids stopped getting raw milk.
> 
> you want to be an idiot and drink raw milk, go ahead.
> 
> just stop lying to people and saying it's safe. it's not. it's dangerous. it can kill. pretending otherwise is ignorant and flies in the face of science.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> What science? Between the CDC, FDA, AMA, and yourself if you had any proof you would have produced it by now. There are millions of Americans that KNOW the truth.
Click to expand...

there are millions of americans that know the truth.
you just aren't one of them.

those of us with brains in our heads only drink safe milk.

the science is settled. raw milk carries diseases. pasteurizing the milk kills the bacteria, making the milk safer.

that's the science. do you have any science to dispute that very basic fact?


----------



## rawmilkmike

ogibillm said:


> rawmilkmike said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ogibillm said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rawmilkmike said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> koshergrl said:
> 
> 
> 
> Raw milk actually increases likelihood of allergies.
> 
> 
> 
> This is not hyperbole. It is an outright lie. Pasteurized milk is the one that “increases the likelihood of allergies.” And there is a scientific basis for this statement.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> no, there isn't.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> “Researchers have determined that drinking pasteurized, homogenized cow’s milk while breastfeeding significantly increases the chances of the infant becoming allergic.
> 
> Medical researchers from Bangkok’s Mahidol University tested and followed 62 mothers and their infants through four months of age.”
> 
> Drinking Cow s Milk while Breastfeeding Increases Risk of Baby s Allergies R.E.A.L. Natural
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> your studies are damning of all cow's milk. there is no basis to believe there is or would be any difference between using unpasteurized and pasteurized cow's milk.
> 
> there is plenty of reason to believe that using raw milk would introduce the mother and child to all kinds of nasty bacteria though.
Click to expand...

Raw milk and pasteurized milk are obviously two completely different things. Pasteurized milk is a semi-sterile growth medium and a toxic energy supplement. Raw milk is a super-food, super safe and super nutritious. There is certainly a “basis to believe” this, you simply chose to ignore it because it competes with your product. What is your product by the way?

Raw human breast-milk is much more likely to be contaminated with the very same so called pathogens as raw cows milk yet WHO and the AAP both say it is the best food for babies and never claim it to be unsafe or contaminated with deadly pathogens.

If you suffer from any of the ailments claimed to be cured be raw milk you'd be a fool not to try it. Even if all of the negative accusations from the pharmaceutical and processed food industries were true. Think about the alternatives.


----------



## ogibillm

rawmilkmike said:


> ogibillm said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rawmilkmike said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ogibillm said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rawmilkmike said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> koshergrl said:
> 
> 
> 
> Raw milk actually increases likelihood of allergies.
> 
> 
> 
> This is not hyperbole. It is an outright lie. Pasteurized milk is the one that “increases the likelihood of allergies.” And there is a scientific basis for this statement.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> no, there isn't.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> “Researchers have determined that drinking pasteurized, homogenized cow’s milk while breastfeeding significantly increases the chances of the infant becoming allergic.
> 
> Medical researchers from Bangkok’s Mahidol University tested and followed 62 mothers and their infants through four months of age.”
> 
> Drinking Cow s Milk while Breastfeeding Increases Risk of Baby s Allergies R.E.A.L. Natural
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> your studies are damning of all cow's milk. there is no basis to believe there is or would be any difference between using unpasteurized and pasteurized cow's milk.
> 
> there is plenty of reason to believe that using raw milk would introduce the mother and child to all kinds of nasty bacteria though.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Raw milk and pasteurized milk are obviously two completely different things. Pasteurized milk is a semi-sterile growth medium and a toxic energy supplement. Raw milk is a super-food, super safe and super nutritious. There is certainly a “basis to believe” this, you simply chose to ignore it because it competes with your product. What is your product by the way?
> 
> Raw human breast-milk is much more likely to be contaminated with the very same so called pathogens as raw cows milk yet WHO and the AAP both say it is the best food for babies and never claim it to be unsafe or contaminated with deadly pathogens.
> 
> If you suffer from any of the ailments claimed to be cured be raw milk you'd be a fool not to try it. Even if all of the negative accusations from the pharmaceutical and processed food industries were true. Think about the alternatives.
Click to expand...

you don't understand what science is, do you?


----------



## rawmilkmike

ogibillm said:


> rawmilkmike said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ogibillm said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rawmilkmike said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ogibillm said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rawmilkmike said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> koshergrl said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rawmilkmike said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ogibillm said:
> 
> 
> 
> raw milk kills infants. undeniable fact.
> 
> 
> 
> That's a new one. Where's your proof? The CDC doesn't have any documented deaths from raw milk.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> "While many raw milk advocates say it has inherent nutritional advantages and even helps cure or ease the symptoms of ailments such as asthma and various allergies, most food-safety experts discount those claims as anecdotal, saying they’re not based on science. They also warn of the serious risks to human health associated with drinking milk that hasn’t been pasteurized."
> 
> A Mom and a Dairyman Plead Don t Feed Children Raw Milk Food Safety News
> 
> Oh..and incidentally...
> 
> "_Campylobacter _is common in the developing world, and travelers to foreign countries are at risk for becoming infected with _Campylobacter_. Approximately one-fifth (19%) of _Campylobacter_ cases identified in FoodNet are associated with international travel."
> 
> CDC - Campylobacter General Information - NCZVED
> Don't buy raw milk from people who hire undocumenteds. It's just another illness like tb that you are more likely to catch if you do.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> koshergrl says: “raw milk kills infants. undeniable fact.”
> 
> 
> rawmilkmike says: “That's a new one. Where's your proof? The CDC doesn't have any documented deaths from raw milk.”
> 
> 
> koshergrl is speechless.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> From 1998 through 2011, 148 outbreaks due to consumption of raw milk or raw milk products were reported to CDC. These resulted in 2,384 illnesses, 284 hospitalizations, and 2 deaths.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> CDC - Raw Milk Questions and Answers - Food Safety
> 
> 
> 
> The impact of pasteurized milk on public health was nothing short of astounding. In 1885 the infant mortality rate in New York City was 273 per 1,000 live births -more than 27%. By 1915 the infant mortality rate was 94 per 1,000, a drop of two-thirds.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The Fight for Safe Milk Pasteurization - Neatorama
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> It says “raw milk or raw milk products” The two deaths were associated with cheese not milk.
> 
> Infant mortality was normally high among immigrants. Have you read some of the concoctions fed to infants back then? There is no evidence that it was ever caused by raw milk. Lack of raw milk maybe.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> so just what in the hell changed, other than pasteurization, that caused the dramatic decrease in infant mortality? nothing. nothing that can account for that change except kids stopped getting raw milk.
> 
> you want to be an idiot and drink raw milk, go ahead.
> 
> just stop lying to people and saying it's safe. it's not. it's dangerous. it can kill. pretending otherwise is ignorant and flies in the face of science.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> What science? Between the CDC, FDA, AMA, and yourself if you had any proof you would have produced it by now. There are millions of Americans that KNOW the truth.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> there are millions of americans that know the truth.
> you just aren't one of them.
> 
> those of us with brains in our heads only drink safe milk.
> 
> the science is settled. raw milk carries diseases. pasteurizing the milk kills the bacteria, making the milk safer.
> 
> that's the science. do you have any science to dispute that very basic fact?
Click to expand...

ogibillm, you are the attacker, the accuser, the name caller, the one trying to force others to buy your product. The burden of proof is on you. 

There is no one that knows your so called truth. Some may believe it. They don't know it. People that switch to raw milk KNOW it's safety and benefit and there are millions of us.


----------



## ogibillm

rawmilkmike said:


> ogibillm said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rawmilkmike said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ogibillm said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rawmilkmike said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ogibillm said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rawmilkmike said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> koshergrl said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rawmilkmike said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ogibillm said:
> 
> 
> 
> raw milk kills infants. undeniable fact.
> 
> 
> 
> That's a new one. Where's your proof? The CDC doesn't have any documented deaths from raw milk.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> "While many raw milk advocates say it has inherent nutritional advantages and even helps cure or ease the symptoms of ailments such as asthma and various allergies, most food-safety experts discount those claims as anecdotal, saying they’re not based on science. They also warn of the serious risks to human health associated with drinking milk that hasn’t been pasteurized."
> 
> A Mom and a Dairyman Plead Don t Feed Children Raw Milk Food Safety News
> 
> Oh..and incidentally...
> 
> "_Campylobacter _is common in the developing world, and travelers to foreign countries are at risk for becoming infected with _Campylobacter_. Approximately one-fifth (19%) of _Campylobacter_ cases identified in FoodNet are associated with international travel."
> 
> CDC - Campylobacter General Information - NCZVED
> Don't buy raw milk from people who hire undocumenteds. It's just another illness like tb that you are more likely to catch if you do.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> koshergrl says: “raw milk kills infants. undeniable fact.”
> 
> 
> rawmilkmike says: “That's a new one. Where's your proof? The CDC doesn't have any documented deaths from raw milk.”
> 
> 
> koshergrl is speechless.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> From 1998 through 2011, 148 outbreaks due to consumption of raw milk or raw milk products were reported to CDC. These resulted in 2,384 illnesses, 284 hospitalizations, and 2 deaths.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> CDC - Raw Milk Questions and Answers - Food Safety
> 
> 
> 
> The impact of pasteurized milk on public health was nothing short of astounding. In 1885 the infant mortality rate in New York City was 273 per 1,000 live births -more than 27%. By 1915 the infant mortality rate was 94 per 1,000, a drop of two-thirds.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The Fight for Safe Milk Pasteurization - Neatorama
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> It says “raw milk or raw milk products” The two deaths were associated with cheese not milk.
> 
> Infant mortality was normally high among immigrants. Have you read some of the concoctions fed to infants back then? There is no evidence that it was ever caused by raw milk. Lack of raw milk maybe.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> so just what in the hell changed, other than pasteurization, that caused the dramatic decrease in infant mortality? nothing. nothing that can account for that change except kids stopped getting raw milk.
> 
> you want to be an idiot and drink raw milk, go ahead.
> 
> just stop lying to people and saying it's safe. it's not. it's dangerous. it can kill. pretending otherwise is ignorant and flies in the face of science.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> What science? Between the CDC, FDA, AMA, and yourself if you had any proof you would have produced it by now. There are millions of Americans that KNOW the truth.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> there are millions of americans that know the truth.
> you just aren't one of them.
> 
> those of us with brains in our heads only drink safe milk.
> 
> the science is settled. raw milk carries diseases. pasteurizing the milk kills the bacteria, making the milk safer.
> 
> that's the science. do you have any science to dispute that very basic fact?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> ogibillm, you are the attacker, the accuser, the name caller, the one trying to force others to buy your product. The burden of proof is yours.
Click to expand...

and i've proven it. pasteurization kills harmful bacteria.
potentially life threatening illnesses are carried by raw milk.
pasteurization reduced the infant mortality rate.

none of these facts are in dispute, but you still want to claim that raw milk is safe despite all the science saying otherwise.


----------



## rawmilkmike

ogibillm said:


> rawmilkmike said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ogibillm said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rawmilkmike said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ogibillm said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rawmilkmike said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> koshergrl said:
> 
> 
> 
> Raw milk actually increases likelihood of allergies.
> 
> 
> 
> This is not hyperbole. It is an outright lie. Pasteurized milk is the one that “increases the likelihood of allergies.” And there is a scientific basis for this statement.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> no, there isn't.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> “Researchers have determined that drinking pasteurized, homogenized cow’s milk while breastfeeding significantly increases the chances of the infant becoming allergic.
> 
> Medical researchers from Bangkok’s Mahidol University tested and followed 62 mothers and their infants through four months of age.”
> 
> Drinking Cow s Milk while Breastfeeding Increases Risk of Baby s Allergies R.E.A.L. Natural
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> your studies are damning of all cow's milk. there is no basis to believe there is or would be any difference between using unpasteurized and pasteurized cow's milk.
> 
> there is plenty of reason to believe that using raw milk would introduce the mother and child to all kinds of nasty bacteria though.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Raw milk and pasteurized milk are obviously two completely different things. Pasteurized milk is a semi-sterile growth medium and a toxic energy supplement. Raw milk is a super-food, super safe and super nutritious. There is certainly a “basis to believe” this, you simply chose to ignore it because it competes with your product. What is your product by the way?
> 
> Raw human breast-milk is much more likely to be contaminated with the very same so called pathogens as raw cows milk yet WHO and the AAP both say it is the best food for babies and never claim it to be unsafe or contaminated with deadly pathogens.
> 
> If you suffer from any of the ailments claimed to be cured be raw milk you'd be a fool not to try it. Even if all of the negative accusations from the pharmaceutical and processed food industries were true. Think about the alternatives.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> you don't understand what science is, do you?
Click to expand...

I'll take that as a yes then.

If you want to site some empirical evidence to back up you accusations go right ahead. Science is based on actual research not the lack of it. Unless you are referring to pseudoscience.


----------



## rawmilkmike

ogibillm said:


> rawmilkmike said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ogibillm said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rawmilkmike said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ogibillm said:
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> 
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> rawmilkmike said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
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> ogibillm said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rawmilkmike said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> koshergrl said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rawmilkmike said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ogibillm said:
> 
> 
> 
> raw milk kills infants. undeniable fact.
> 
> 
> 
> That's a new one. Where's your proof? The CDC doesn't have any documented deaths from raw milk.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> "While many raw milk advocates say it has inherent nutritional advantages and even helps cure or ease the symptoms of ailments such as asthma and various allergies, most food-safety experts discount those claims as anecdotal, saying they’re not based on science. They also warn of the serious risks to human health associated with drinking milk that hasn’t been pasteurized."
> 
> A Mom and a Dairyman Plead Don t Feed Children Raw Milk Food Safety News
> 
> Oh..and incidentally...
> 
> "_Campylobacter _is common in the developing world, and travelers to foreign countries are at risk for becoming infected with _Campylobacter_. Approximately one-fifth (19%) of _Campylobacter_ cases identified in FoodNet are associated with international travel."
> 
> CDC - Campylobacter General Information - NCZVED
> Don't buy raw milk from people who hire undocumenteds. It's just another illness like tb that you are more likely to catch if you do.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> koshergrl says: “raw milk kills infants. undeniable fact.”
> 
> 
> rawmilkmike says: “That's a new one. Where's your proof? The CDC doesn't have any documented deaths from raw milk.”
> 
> 
> koshergrl is speechless.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> From 1998 through 2011, 148 outbreaks due to consumption of raw milk or raw milk products were reported to CDC. These resulted in 2,384 illnesses, 284 hospitalizations, and 2 deaths.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> CDC - Raw Milk Questions and Answers - Food Safety
> 
> 
> 
> The impact of pasteurized milk on public health was nothing short of astounding. In 1885 the infant mortality rate in New York City was 273 per 1,000 live births -more than 27%. By 1915 the infant mortality rate was 94 per 1,000, a drop of two-thirds.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The Fight for Safe Milk Pasteurization - Neatorama
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> It says “raw milk or raw milk products” The two deaths were associated with cheese not milk.
> 
> Infant mortality was normally high among immigrants. Have you read some of the concoctions fed to infants back then? There is no evidence that it was ever caused by raw milk. Lack of raw milk maybe.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> so just what in the hell changed, other than pasteurization, that caused the dramatic decrease in infant mortality? nothing. nothing that can account for that change except kids stopped getting raw milk.
> 
> you want to be an idiot and drink raw milk, go ahead.
> 
> just stop lying to people and saying it's safe. it's not. it's dangerous. it can kill. pretending otherwise is ignorant and flies in the face of science.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> What science? Between the CDC, FDA, AMA, and yourself if you had any proof you would have produced it by now. There are millions of Americans that KNOW the truth.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> there are millions of americans that know the truth.
> you just aren't one of them.
> 
> those of us with brains in our heads only drink safe milk.
> 
> the science is settled. raw milk carries diseases. pasteurizing the milk kills the bacteria, making the milk safer.
> 
> that's the science. do you have any science to dispute that very basic fact?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> ogibillm, you are the attacker, the accuser, the name caller, the one trying to force others to buy your product. The burden of proof is yours.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> and i've proven it. pasteurization kills harmful bacteria.
> potentially life threatening illnesses are carried by raw milk.
> pasteurization reduced the infant mortality rate.
> 
> none of these facts are in dispute, but you still want to claim that raw milk is safe despite all the science saying otherwise.
Click to expand...

and i've proven it. pasteurization kills some bacteria.
potentially life threatening illnesses are carried by some bacteria.
pasteurization increases infant mortality.

none of these facts are in dispute, but you still want to claim that pasteurized milk is safe despite all the science saying otherwise.

study shows that pasteurization adversely affects the antibacterial properties of raw milk.
Impact of pasteurization on the antibacterial ... Eur J Pediatr. 2012 - PubMed - NCBI


----------



## koshergrl

Hmmm..let's weigh the benefits of the dubious antibacterial properties of raw milk..against the potential of deadly (and various) milk-borne illnesses.


----------



## ogibillm

rawmilkmike said:


> study shows that pasteurization adversely affects the antibacterial properties of raw milk.
> Impact of pasteurization on the antibacterial ... Eur J Pediatr. 2012 - PubMed - NCBI


you're really wanting to make a comparison between a mother's milk for her child and milk from a dairy?

your article does not mention cow's milk at all. do you have a study that involves cow's milk?


----------



## rawmilkmike

koshergrl said:


> Hmmm..let's weigh the benefits of the dubious antibacterial properties of raw milk..against the potential of deadly (and various) milk-borne illnesses.


So, the first time we are looking at an actual scientific study from a government website you call it dubious but we should take your misinterpretations of unsubstantiated inferences by raw milks competitors as fact?


----------



## rawmilkmike

ogibillm said:


> rawmilkmike said:
> 
> 
> 
> study shows that pasteurization adversely affects the antibacterial properties of raw milk.
> Impact of pasteurization on the antibacterial ... Eur J Pediatr. 2012 - PubMed - NCBI
> 
> 
> 
> you're really wanting to make a comparison between a mother's milk for her child and milk from a dairy?
> 
> your article does not mention cow's milk at all. do you have a study that involves cow's milk?
Click to expand...

Of course, but I thought you'd be more likely to believe one of your own resent studies.

If pasteurization adversely affects the antibacterial properties of raw breast milk why wouldn't it do the same to raw cows milk?


----------



## gallantwarrior

elektra said:


> gallantwarrior said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> elektra said:
> 
> 
> 
> raw milk, good stuff, I have drunk gallons of it, gallons and gallons as a kid. I liked the inch of cream on the top.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cow's milk!  I have goats and the cream (fat) component is more finely distributed, rather like naturally homogenized, very little cream on top.  Just as delicious...and healthy, raw goat's milk.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> all cream is healthy
Click to expand...


I didn't say it wasn't.  I'm actually disappointed that about the only way to get enough cream from goats' milk is by using a centrifuge.  My granddaughters will wait on either side of the milking bench and participate in "target practice".  The only way to get fresher raw milk is to suck it from the teat.  My family thrives on raw milk.


----------



## gallantwarrior

ogibillm said:


> rawmilkmike said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ogibillm said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rawmilkmike said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ogibillm said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rawmilkmike said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> koshergrl said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rawmilkmike said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ogibillm said:
> 
> 
> 
> raw milk kills infants. undeniable fact.
> 
> 
> 
> That's a new one. Where's your proof? The CDC doesn't have any documented deaths from raw milk.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> "While many raw milk advocates say it has inherent nutritional advantages and even helps cure or ease the symptoms of ailments such as asthma and various allergies, most food-safety experts discount those claims as anecdotal, saying they’re not based on science. They also warn of the serious risks to human health associated with drinking milk that hasn’t been pasteurized."
> 
> A Mom and a Dairyman Plead Don t Feed Children Raw Milk Food Safety News
> 
> Oh..and incidentally...
> 
> "_Campylobacter _is common in the developing world, and travelers to foreign countries are at risk for becoming infected with _Campylobacter_. Approximately one-fifth (19%) of _Campylobacter_ cases identified in FoodNet are associated with international travel."
> 
> CDC - Campylobacter General Information - NCZVED
> Don't buy raw milk from people who hire undocumenteds. It's just another illness like tb that you are more likely to catch if you do.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> koshergrl says: “raw milk kills infants. undeniable fact.”
> 
> 
> rawmilkmike says: “That's a new one. Where's your proof? The CDC doesn't have any documented deaths from raw milk.”
> 
> 
> koshergrl is speechless.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> From 1998 through 2011, 148 outbreaks due to consumption of raw milk or raw milk products were reported to CDC. These resulted in 2,384 illnesses, 284 hospitalizations, and 2 deaths.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> CDC - Raw Milk Questions and Answers - Food Safety
> 
> 
> 
> The impact of pasteurized milk on public health was nothing short of astounding. In 1885 the infant mortality rate in New York City was 273 per 1,000 live births -more than 27%. By 1915 the infant mortality rate was 94 per 1,000, a drop of two-thirds.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The Fight for Safe Milk Pasteurization - Neatorama
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> It says “raw milk or raw milk products” The two deaths were associated with cheese not milk.
> 
> Infant mortality was normally high among immigrants. Have you read some of the concoctions fed to infants back then? There is no evidence that it was ever caused by raw milk. Lack of raw milk maybe.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> so just what in the hell changed, other than pasteurization, that caused the dramatic decrease in infant mortality? nothing. nothing that can account for that change except kids stopped getting raw milk.
> 
> you want to be an idiot and drink raw milk, go ahead.
> 
> just stop lying to people and saying it's safe. it's not. it's dangerous. it can kill. pretending otherwise is ignorant and flies in the face of science.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> What science? Between the CDC, FDA, AMA, and yourself if you had any proof you would have produced it by now. There are millions of Americans that KNOW the truth.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> there are millions of americans that know the truth.
> you just aren't one of them.
> 
> those of us with brains in our heads only drink safe milk.
> 
> the science is settled. raw milk carries diseases. pasteurizing the milk kills the bacteria, making the milk safer.
> 
> that's the science. do you have any science to dispute that very basic fact?
Click to expand...


"Safe" milk is shit milk.  Why in hell would anyone want to buy, and consume, a product that was so thoroughly purged of all its natural goodness that it would have to be "fortified"?


----------



## elektra

gallantwarrior said:


> elektra said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> gallantwarrior said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> elektra said:
> 
> 
> 
> raw milk, good stuff, I have drunk gallons of it, gallons and gallons as a kid. I liked the inch of cream on the top.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cow's milk!  I have goats and the cream (fat) component is more finely distributed, rather like naturally homogenized, very little cream on top.  Just as delicious...and healthy, raw goat's milk.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> all cream is healthy
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I didn't say it wasn't.  I'm actually disappointed that about the only way to get enough cream from goats' milk is by using a centrifuge.  My granddaughters will wait on either side of the milking bench and participate in "target practice".  The only way to get fresher raw milk is to suck it from the teat.  My family thrives on raw milk.
Click to expand...

I was not disagreeing, just saying I like cream. The Internet does not always express my meaning, sorry.


----------



## gallantwarrior

ogibillm said:


> rawmilkmike said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ogibillm said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rawmilkmike said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ogibillm said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rawmilkmike said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ogibillm said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rawmilkmike said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> koshergrl said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rawmilkmike said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ogibillm said:
> 
> 
> 
> raw milk kills infants. undeniable fact.
> 
> 
> 
> That's a new one. Where's your proof? The CDC doesn't have any documented deaths from raw milk.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> "While many raw milk advocates say it has inherent nutritional advantages and even helps cure or ease the symptoms of ailments such as asthma and various allergies, most food-safety experts discount those claims as anecdotal, saying they’re not based on science. They also warn of the serious risks to human health associated with drinking milk that hasn’t been pasteurized."
> 
> A Mom and a Dairyman Plead Don t Feed Children Raw Milk Food Safety News
> 
> Oh..and incidentally...
> 
> "_Campylobacter _is common in the developing world, and travelers to foreign countries are at risk for becoming infected with _Campylobacter_. Approximately one-fifth (19%) of _Campylobacter_ cases identified in FoodNet are associated with international travel."
> 
> 
> CDC - Campylobacter General Information - NCZVED
> Don't buy raw milk from people who hire undocumenteds. It's just another illness like tb that you are more likely to catch if you do.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> koshergrl says: “raw milk kills infants. undeniable fact.”
> 
> 
> rawmilkmike says: “That's a new one. Where's your proof? The CDC doesn't have any documented deaths from raw milk.”
> 
> 
> koshergrl is speechless.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> From 1998 through 2011, 148 outbreaks due to consumption of raw milk or raw milk products were reported to CDC. These resulted in 2,384 illnesses, 284 hospitalizations, and 2 deaths.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> CDC - Raw Milk Questions and Answers - Food Safety
> 
> 
> 
> The impact of pasteurized milk on public health was nothing short of astounding. In 1885 the infant mortality rate in New York City was 273 per 1,000 live births -more than 27%. By 1915 the infant mortality rate was 94 per 1,000, a drop of two-thirds.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The Fight for Safe Milk Pasteurization - Neatorama
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> It says “raw milk or raw milk products” The two deaths were associated with cheese not milk.
> 
> Infant mortality was normally high among immigrants. Have you read some of the concoctions fed to infants back then? There is no evidence that it was ever caused by raw milk. Lack of raw milk maybe.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> so just what in the hell changed, other than pasteurization, that caused the dramatic decrease in infant mortality? nothing. nothing that can account for that change except kids stopped getting raw milk.
> 
> you want to be an idiot and drink raw milk, go ahead.
> 
> just stop lying to people and saying it's safe. it's not. it's dangerous. it can kill. pretending otherwise is ignorant and flies in the face of science.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> What science? Between the CDC, FDA, AMA, and yourself if you had any proof you would have produced it by now. There are millions of Americans that KNOW the truth.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> there are millions of americans that know the truth.
> you just aren't one of them.
> 
> those of us with brains in our heads only drink safe milk.
> 
> the science is settled. raw milk carries diseases. pasteurizing the milk kills the bacteria, making the milk safer.
> 
> that's the science. do you have any science to dispute that very basic fact?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> ogibillm, you are the attacker, the accuser, the name caller, the one trying to force others to buy your product. The burden of proof is yours.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> and i've proven it. pasteurization kills harmful bacteria.
> potentially life threatening illnesses are carried by raw milk.
> pasteurization reduced the infant mortality rate.
> 
> none of these facts are in dispute, but you still want to claim that raw milk is safe despite all the science saying otherwise.
Click to expand...


Pas


elektra said:


> gallantwarrior said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> elektra said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> gallantwarrior said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> elektra said:
> 
> 
> 
> raw milk, good stuff, I have drunk gallons of it, gallons and gallons as a kid. I liked the inch of cream on the top.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cow's milk!  I have goats and the cream (fat) component is more finely distributed, rather like naturally homogenized, very little cream on top.  Just as delicious...and healthy, raw goat's milk.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> all cream is healthy
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I didn't say it wasn't.  I'm actually disappointed that about the only way to get enough cream from goats' milk is by using a centrifuge.  My granddaughters will wait on either side of the milking bench and participate in "target practice".  The only way to get fresher raw milk is to suck it from the teat.  My family thrives on raw milk.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I was not disagreeing, just saying I like cream. The Internet does not always express my meaning, sorry.
Click to expand...


I love cream...too bad goat milk doesn't make a lot of it.  To make butter, I have to skim it off with a teaspoon!


----------



## Cav Scout

konradv said:


> Here's a little something to think about for those who keep telling us the government should stay out of our business and allow free sale of raw milk.
> 
> 45 in Utah have campylobacteriosis from raw milk - CNN.com



Awe.. that is too bad.  Stay the hell out of what I eat, drink and feed my kids.  Grew up on a small dairy farm, none of us died.

I eat raw pork liver as well.

Stupid idiots did not know how to take care of their milk.


----------



## Flopper

Cav Scout said:


> konradv said:
> 
> 
> 
> Here's a little something to think about for those who keep telling us the government should stay out of our business and allow free sale of raw milk.
> 
> 45 in Utah have campylobacteriosis from raw milk - CNN.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Awe.. that is too bad.  Stay the hell out of what I eat, drink and feed my kids.  Grew up on a small dairy farm, none of us died.
> 
> I eat raw pork liver as well.
> 
> Stupid idiots did not know how to take care of their milk.
Click to expand...

There's big difference in small diary farms  of yesterday with local distribution.  Today, diary farms are huge, some with as many 30,000 cows with little attention paid to their health compared to the small farms of yesterday.  The milk on the table today may have traveled hundreds of miles before if finally reaches the dinner table weeks after it comes from the cow.  Only on a fool would suggest we not pasteurized milk today.


----------



## Cav Scout

Flopper said:


> Cav Scout said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> konradv said:
> 
> 
> 
> Here's a little something to think about for those who keep telling us the government should stay out of our business and allow free sale of raw milk.
> 
> 45 in Utah have campylobacteriosis from raw milk - CNN.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Awe.. that is too bad.  Stay the hell out of what I eat, drink and feed my kids.  Grew up on a small dairy farm, none of us died.
> 
> I eat raw pork liver as well.
> 
> Stupid idiots did not know how to take care of their milk.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> There's big difference in small diary farms  of yesterday with local distribution.  Today, diary farms are huge, some with as many 30,000 cows with little attention paid to their health compared to the small farms of yesterday.  The milk on the table today may have traveled hundreds of miles before if finally reaches the dinner table weeks after it comes from the cow.  Only on a fool would suggest we not pasteurized milk today.
Click to expand...


30K Turn table dairy farms are not selling raw milk...

Locals are selling raw milk from their 25 cow dairy...

When I tell you a small family farm it was 500 head of jerseys milked by HAND.

Try not to baffle me with bullshit ok?


----------



## rawmilkmike

gallantwarrior said:


> ogibillm said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rawmilkmike said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ogibillm said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rawmilkmike said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ogibillm said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rawmilkmike said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ogibillm said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rawmilkmike said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> koshergrl said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rawmilkmike said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ogibillm said:
> 
> 
> 
> raw milk kills infants. undeniable fact.
> 
> 
> 
> That's a new one. Where's your proof? The CDC doesn't have any documented deaths from raw milk.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> "While many raw milk advocates say it has inherent nutritional advantages and even helps cure or ease the symptoms of ailments such as asthma and various allergies, most food-safety experts discount those claims as anecdotal, saying they’re not based on science. They also warn of the serious risks to human health associated with drinking milk that hasn’t been pasteurized."
> 
> A Mom and a Dairyman Plead Don t Feed Children Raw Milk Food Safety News
> 
> Oh..and incidentally...
> 
> "_Campylobacter _is common in the developing world, and travelers to foreign countries are at risk for becoming infected with _Campylobacter_. Approximately one-fifth (19%) of _Campylobacter_ cases identified in FoodNet are associated with international travel."
> 
> 
> CDC - Campylobacter General Information - NCZVED
> Don't buy raw milk from people who hire undocumenteds. It's just another illness like tb that you are more likely to catch if you do.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> koshergrl says: “raw milk kills infants. undeniable fact.”
> 
> 
> rawmilkmike says: “That's a new one. Where's your proof? The CDC doesn't have any documented deaths from raw milk.”
> 
> 
> koshergrl is speechless.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> From 1998 through 2011, 148 outbreaks due to consumption of raw milk or raw milk products were reported to CDC. These resulted in 2,384 illnesses, 284 hospitalizations, and 2 deaths.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> CDC - Raw Milk Questions and Answers - Food Safety
> 
> 
> 
> The impact of pasteurized milk on public health was nothing short of astounding. In 1885 the infant mortality rate in New York City was 273 per 1,000 live births -more than 27%. By 1915 the infant mortality rate was 94 per 1,000, a drop of two-thirds.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The Fight for Safe Milk Pasteurization - Neatorama
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> It says “raw milk or raw milk products” The two deaths were associated with cheese not milk.
> 
> Infant mortality was normally high among immigrants. Have you read some of the concoctions fed to infants back then? There is no evidence that it was ever caused by raw milk. Lack of raw milk maybe.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> so just what in the hell changed, other than pasteurization, that caused the dramatic decrease in infant mortality? nothing. nothing that can account for that change except kids stopped getting raw milk.
> 
> you want to be an idiot and drink raw milk, go ahead.
> 
> just stop lying to people and saying it's safe. it's not. it's dangerous. it can kill. pretending otherwise is ignorant and flies in the face of science.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> What science? Between the CDC, FDA, AMA, and yourself if you had any proof you would have produced it by now. There are millions of Americans that KNOW the truth.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> there are millions of americans that know the truth.
> you just aren't one of them.
> 
> those of us with brains in our heads only drink safe milk.
> 
> the science is settled. raw milk carries diseases. pasteurizing the milk kills the bacteria, making the milk safer.
> 
> that's the science. do you have any science to dispute that very basic fact?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> ogibillm, you are the attacker, the accuser, the name caller, the one trying to force others to buy your product. The burden of proof is yours.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> and i've proven it. pasteurization kills harmful bacteria.
> potentially life threatening illnesses are carried by raw milk.
> pasteurization reduced the infant mortality rate.
> 
> none of these facts are in dispute, but you still want to claim that raw milk is safe despite all the science saying otherwise.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Pas
> 
> 
> elektra said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> gallantwarrior said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> elektra said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> gallantwarrior said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> elektra said:
> 
> 
> 
> raw milk, good stuff, I have drunk gallons of it, gallons and gallons as a kid. I liked the inch of cream on the top.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Cow's milk!  I have goats and the cream (fat) component is more finely distributed, rather like naturally homogenized, very little cream on top.  Just as delicious...and healthy, raw goat's milk.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> all cream is healthy
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I didn't say it wasn't.  I'm actually disappointed that about the only way to get enough cream from goats' milk is by using a centrifuge.  My granddaughters will wait on either side of the milking bench and participate in "target practice".  The only way to get fresher raw milk is to suck it from the teat.  My family thrives on raw milk.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I was not disagreeing, just saying I like cream. The Internet does not always express my meaning, sorry.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I love cream...too bad goat milk doesn't make a lot of it.  To make butter, I have to skim it off with a teaspoon!
Click to expand...

PAS
_abbreviation for_
*1. * (Medicine) physician-assisted suicide: a practice in which a terminally-ill person requests a medical practitioner to administer a lethal dose of medication
pas (pɑː; _French _pɑ)
_n_, _pl_ *pas* (pɑːz; _French _pɑ)
*1. * (Ballet) a dance step or movement, esp in ballet
*2. *the right to precede; precedence
[C18: French, literally: step]

Which do you mean?


----------



## Cav Scout

Gawd the level of stupid in this thread is amazing....

Most people in this Nation have no idea what they eat, what it was raised on or how it was grown, they see a few videos put out by some numbskull or read some shit on the USDA website or whatever and by gawd its gospel.  Never mind we have lived thousands of years...

Because of you own cleanliness and genetic intolerance and modern medicine is the only flipping reason a third of you are still alive... 

Yet those of us whom prefer to actually taste our food... well everything we do should be outlawed.... chumps... as bad as those assholes whom think peanut butter should be outlawed because your kid might ask my kid for a bite of her sandwich in school...

There are a reason for genetic deaths...they actually serve a purpose.

If your kid is lactose intolerant, do the world a favor, don't let it breed.


----------



## R.C. Christian

Never harmed my ancestors. Try selling it now and you'll get a Swat team sent to your barn. Poor Amish.


----------



## Cav Scout

ogibillm said:


> rawmilkmike said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ogibillm said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rawmilkmike said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ogibillm said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rawmilkmike said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> koshergrl said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rawmilkmike said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ogibillm said:
> 
> 
> 
> raw milk kills infants. undeniable fact.
> 
> 
> 
> That's a new one. Where's your proof? The CDC doesn't have any documented deaths from raw milk.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> "While many raw milk advocates say it has inherent nutritional advantages and even helps cure or ease the symptoms of ailments such as asthma and various allergies, most food-safety experts discount those claims as anecdotal, saying they’re not based on science. They also warn of the serious risks to human health associated with drinking milk that hasn’t been pasteurized."
> 
> A Mom and a Dairyman Plead Don t Feed Children Raw Milk Food Safety News
> 
> Oh..and incidentally...
> 
> "_Campylobacter _is common in the developing world, and travelers to foreign countries are at risk for becoming infected with _Campylobacter_. Approximately one-fifth (19%) of _Campylobacter_ cases identified in FoodNet are associated with international travel."
> 
> CDC - Campylobacter General Information - NCZVED
> Don't buy raw milk from people who hire undocumenteds. It's just another illness like tb that you are more likely to catch if you do.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> koshergrl says: “raw milk kills infants. undeniable fact.”
> 
> 
> rawmilkmike says: “That's a new one. Where's your proof? The CDC doesn't have any documented deaths from raw milk.”
> 
> 
> koshergrl is speechless.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> From 1998 through 2011, 148 outbreaks due to consumption of raw milk or raw milk products were reported to CDC. These resulted in 2,384 illnesses, 284 hospitalizations, and 2 deaths.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> CDC - Raw Milk Questions and Answers - Food Safety
> 
> 
> 
> The impact of pasteurized milk on public health was nothing short of astounding. In 1885 the infant mortality rate in New York City was 273 per 1,000 live births -more than 27%. By 1915 the infant mortality rate was 94 per 1,000, a drop of two-thirds.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The Fight for Safe Milk Pasteurization - Neatorama
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> It says “raw milk or raw milk products” The two deaths were associated with cheese not milk.
> 
> Infant mortality was normally high among immigrants. Have you read some of the concoctions fed to infants back then? There is no evidence that it was ever caused by raw milk. Lack of raw milk maybe.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> so just what in the hell changed, other than pasteurization, that caused the dramatic decrease in infant mortality? nothing. nothing that can account for that change except kids stopped getting raw milk.
> 
> you want to be an idiot and drink raw milk, go ahead.
> 
> just stop lying to people and saying it's safe. it's not. it's dangerous. it can kill. pretending otherwise is ignorant and flies in the face of science.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> What science? Between the CDC, FDA, AMA, and yourself if you had any proof you would have produced it by now. There are millions of Americans that KNOW the truth.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> there are millions of americans that know the truth.
> you just aren't one of them.
> 
> those of us with brains in our heads only drink safe milk.
> 
> the science is settled. raw milk carries diseases. pasteurizing the milk kills the bacteria, making the milk safer.
> 
> that's the science. do you have any science to dispute that very basic fact?
Click to expand...


Nope, raw milk carries stuff that kills weak bodies.

So does Meat, so does everything we eat unless it is put through all types of different treatments, that is why we invented things like skimming, boiling, curing, smoking, all sorts of ways to preserve.

But here is the simple fact...

We with our cleanliness have created a society that can't eat a hunk of venison if it is starving with out getting sick...  That will work well for you all in future.


----------



## Cav Scout

R.C. Christian said:


> Never harmed my ancestors. Try selling it now and you'll get a Swat team sent to your barn. Poor Amish.




I buy milk, eggs and bread from the Amish right down the road.

My kid is alive and so is the rest of the family.

To hell with the USDA.


----------



## rawmilkmike

Flopper said:


> Cav Scout said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> konradv said:
> 
> 
> 
> Here's a little something to think about for those who keep telling us the government should stay out of our business and allow free sale of raw milk.
> 
> 45 in Utah have campylobacteriosis from raw milk - CNN.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Awe.. that is too bad.  Stay the hell out of what I eat, drink and feed my kids.  Grew up on a small dairy farm, none of us died.
> 
> I eat raw pork liver as well.
> 
> Stupid idiots did not know how to take care of their milk.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> There's big difference in small diary farms  of yesterday with local distribution.  Today, diary farms are huge, some with as many 30,000 cows with little attention paid to their health compared to the small farms of yesterday.  The milk on the table today may have traveled hundreds of miles before if finally reaches the dinner table weeks after it comes from the cow.  Only on a fool would suggest we not pasteurized milk today.
Click to expand...

There is no evidence that even the worst raw milk was or is as bad as the best pasteurized, homogenized milk of today. Pasteurization of milk does nothing to improve it's safety. Outbreaks of so called foodborne illness are mathematical models based on speculative(fraudulent really) input. There is no way to know if any of them actually have anything to do with food, lack of food maybe. They simple mean that some of the annual 12 billion cases of diarrhea in this country happen to people who ate the same food. It doesn't matter if your product has a negative risk factor and is actually preventing the very same illnesses. It can always be associated with so called foodborne illness.


----------



## rawmilkmike

Cav Scout said:


> ogibillm said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rawmilkmike said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ogibillm said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rawmilkmike said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ogibillm said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rawmilkmike said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> koshergrl said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rawmilkmike said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ogibillm said:
> 
> 
> 
> raw milk kills infants. undeniable fact.
> 
> 
> 
> That's a new one. Where's your proof? The CDC doesn't have any documented deaths from raw milk.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> "While many raw milk advocates say it has inherent nutritional advantages and even helps cure or ease the symptoms of ailments such as asthma and various allergies, most food-safety experts discount those claims as anecdotal, saying they’re not based on science. They also warn of the serious risks to human health associated with drinking milk that hasn’t been pasteurized."
> 
> A Mom and a Dairyman Plead Don t Feed Children Raw Milk Food Safety News
> 
> Oh..and incidentally...
> 
> "_Campylobacter _is common in the developing world, and travelers to foreign countries are at risk for becoming infected with _Campylobacter_. Approximately one-fifth (19%) of _Campylobacter_ cases identified in FoodNet are associated with international travel."
> 
> CDC - Campylobacter General Information - NCZVED
> Don't buy raw milk from people who hire undocumenteds. It's just another illness like tb that you are more likely to catch if you do.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> koshergrl says: “raw milk kills infants. undeniable fact.”
> 
> 
> rawmilkmike says: “That's a new one. Where's your proof? The CDC doesn't have any documented deaths from raw milk.”
> 
> 
> koshergrl is speechless.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> From 1998 through 2011, 148 outbreaks due to consumption of raw milk or raw milk products were reported to CDC. These resulted in 2,384 illnesses, 284 hospitalizations, and 2 deaths.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> CDC - Raw Milk Questions and Answers - Food Safety
> 
> 
> 
> The impact of pasteurized milk on public health was nothing short of astounding. In 1885 the infant mortality rate in New York City was 273 per 1,000 live births -more than 27%. By 1915 the infant mortality rate was 94 per 1,000, a drop of two-thirds.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The Fight for Safe Milk Pasteurization - Neatorama
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> It says “raw milk or raw milk products” The two deaths were associated with cheese not milk.
> 
> Infant mortality was normally high among immigrants. Have you read some of the concoctions fed to infants back then? There is no evidence that it was ever caused by raw milk. Lack of raw milk maybe.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> so just what in the hell changed, other than pasteurization, that caused the dramatic decrease in infant mortality? nothing. nothing that can account for that change except kids stopped getting raw milk.
> 
> you want to be an idiot and drink raw milk, go ahead.
> 
> just stop lying to people and saying it's safe. it's not. it's dangerous. it can kill. pretending otherwise is ignorant and flies in the face of science.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> What science? Between the CDC, FDA, AMA, and yourself if you had any proof you would have produced it by now. There are millions of Americans that KNOW the truth.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> there are millions of americans that know the truth.
> you just aren't one of them.
> 
> those of us with brains in our heads only drink safe milk.
> 
> the science is settled. raw milk carries diseases. pasteurizing the milk kills the bacteria, making the milk safer.
> 
> that's the science. do you have any science to dispute that very basic fact?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Nope, raw milk carries stuff that kills weak bodies.
> 
> So does Meat, so does everything we eat unless it is put through all types of different treatments, that is why we invented things like skimming, boiling, curing, smoking, all sorts of ways to preserve.
> 
> But here is the simple fact...
> 
> We with our cleanliness have created a society that can't eat a hunk of venison if it is starving with out getting sick...  That will work well for you all in future.
Click to expand...

Nope, raw milk could theoretically carry bacteria that is sometimes found in diarrhea. There is no proof that that bacteria is the cause let alone where it may have come from if in fact it wasn't already in the body before the illness. Raw milk is the least friendly to unwanted bacteria and the least likely to be contaminated by it. No one lives in a bubble. We are all exposed to these bacteria. In most cases food is actually the least likely source.


----------



## rawmilkmike

Cav Scout said:


> konradv said:
> 
> 
> 
> Here's a little something to think about for those who keep telling us the government should stay out of our business and allow free sale of raw milk.
> 
> 45 in Utah have campylobacteriosis from raw milk - CNN.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Awe.. that is too bad.  Stay the hell out of what I eat, drink and feed my kids.  Grew up on a small dairy farm, none of us died.
> 
> I eat raw pork liver as well.
> 
> Stupid idiots did not know how to take care of their milk.
Click to expand...

That may or may not be true but there is no reason to stipulate to the propaganda. There is no reason to believe that any of these people were sickened by their milk.


----------



## Cav Scout

rawmilkmike said:


> Cav Scout said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ogibillm said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rawmilkmike said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ogibillm said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rawmilkmike said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ogibillm said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rawmilkmike said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> koshergrl said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rawmilkmike said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ogibillm said:
> 
> 
> 
> raw milk kills infants. undeniable fact.
> 
> 
> 
> That's a new one. Where's your proof? The CDC doesn't have any documented deaths from raw milk.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> "While many raw milk advocates say it has inherent nutritional advantages and even helps cure or ease the symptoms of ailments such as asthma and various allergies, most food-safety experts discount those claims as anecdotal, saying they’re not based on science. They also warn of the serious risks to human health associated with drinking milk that hasn’t been pasteurized."
> 
> A Mom and a Dairyman Plead Don t Feed Children Raw Milk Food Safety News
> 
> Oh..and incidentally...
> 
> "_Campylobacter _is common in the developing world, and travelers to foreign countries are at risk for becoming infected with _Campylobacter_. Approximately one-fifth (19%) of _Campylobacter_ cases identified in FoodNet are associated with international travel."
> 
> CDC - Campylobacter General Information - NCZVED
> Don't buy raw milk from people who hire undocumenteds. It's just another illness like tb that you are more likely to catch if you do.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> koshergrl says: “raw milk kills infants. undeniable fact.”
> 
> 
> rawmilkmike says: “That's a new one. Where's your proof? The CDC doesn't have any documented deaths from raw milk.”
> 
> 
> koshergrl is speechless.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> From 1998 through 2011, 148 outbreaks due to consumption of raw milk or raw milk products were reported to CDC. These resulted in 2,384 illnesses, 284 hospitalizations, and 2 deaths.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> CDC - Raw Milk Questions and Answers - Food Safety
> 
> 
> 
> The impact of pasteurized milk on public health was nothing short of astounding. In 1885 the infant mortality rate in New York City was 273 per 1,000 live births -more than 27%. By 1915 the infant mortality rate was 94 per 1,000, a drop of two-thirds.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The Fight for Safe Milk Pasteurization - Neatorama
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> It says “raw milk or raw milk products” The two deaths were associated with cheese not milk.
> 
> Infant mortality was normally high among immigrants. Have you read some of the concoctions fed to infants back then? There is no evidence that it was ever caused by raw milk. Lack of raw milk maybe.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> so just what in the hell changed, other than pasteurization, that caused the dramatic decrease in infant mortality? nothing. nothing that can account for that change except kids stopped getting raw milk.
> 
> you want to be an idiot and drink raw milk, go ahead.
> 
> just stop lying to people and saying it's safe. it's not. it's dangerous. it can kill. pretending otherwise is ignorant and flies in the face of science.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> What science? Between the CDC, FDA, AMA, and yourself if you had any proof you would have produced it by now. There are millions of Americans that KNOW the truth.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> there are millions of americans that know the truth.
> you just aren't one of them.
> 
> those of us with brains in our heads only drink safe milk.
> 
> the science is settled. raw milk carries diseases. pasteurizing the milk kills the bacteria, making the milk safer.
> 
> that's the science. do you have any science to dispute that very basic fact?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Nope, raw milk carries stuff that kills weak bodies.
> 
> So does Meat, so does everything we eat unless it is put through all types of different treatments, that is why we invented things like skimming, boiling, curing, smoking, all sorts of ways to preserve.
> 
> But here is the simple fact...
> 
> We with our cleanliness have created a society that can't eat a hunk of venison if it is starving with out getting sick...  That will work well for you all in future.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Nope, raw milk could theoretically carry bacteria that is sometimes found in diarrhea. There is no proof that that bacteria is the cause let alone where it may have come from if in fact it wasn't already in the body before the illness. Raw milk is the least friendly to unwanted bacteria and the least likely to be contaminated by it.
Click to expand...


Oh good grief, stop shooting yourself in the foot.

I spent more time pulling the tits of jerseys in my youth then you have seen cows.

Here is how bacteria and milk work.

When milk is in the bag it is pure and it is also sterile.  ZERO bacteria count.

However when it hits the can, the bacteria from the environment around it can invade and contaminate it.

Milk with less than a 3% bacterial count is sold as a premium to whomever you are selling too.  It is also sold by butterfat content and pound.

At 5% it becomes marginal and you will get crap for a pay check.  At 5.5% you cannot sell it.  

Now if you have an infected cow, then you are an idiot if you put that in the jug.... Unless you are milking 1000 head and know it will be diluted.

Many dairy farmers now take that chance.

Milk that is less than 3% bac and 12% butterfat is golden and worth a helleva lot right now...

It is used to mix with the shit most dairy's produce to make it drinkable after it is boiled down to white water so it does not kill the weak and the meek.

None of you know a damn thing about modern milk and that plastic jug it comes from.


----------



## Cav Scout

rawmilkmike said:


> Cav Scout said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> konradv said:
> 
> 
> 
> Here's a little something to think about for those who keep telling us the government should stay out of our business and allow free sale of raw milk.
> 
> 45 in Utah have campylobacteriosis from raw milk - CNN.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Awe.. that is too bad.  Stay the hell out of what I eat, drink and feed my kids.  Grew up on a small dairy farm, none of us died.
> 
> I eat raw pork liver as well.
> 
> Stupid idiots did not know how to take care of their milk.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> That may or may not be true but there is no reason to stipulate to the propaganda. There is no reason to believe that any of these people were sickened by their milk.
Click to expand...


Sure they were, but it was not the milks fault, it was the way it was taken care of and environment it was in when it was handled.

Possibly it was a certain cow, if that milk was predominantly from a cold cow, well then it makes perfect sense.  Look man, I believe in drinking whole, raw milk, I drink it every day.  But don't play that it is always golden crap, you can feed someone bad milk, just like you can bad meat or anything else.

The question is, do you have the 'stomach' to deal with bad food, and most today do not.


----------



## I.P.Freely

rawmilkmike said:


> I.P.Freely said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rawmilkmike said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I.P.Freely said:
> 
> 
> 
> My two brothers and I caught Undulant fever from raw milk, it nearly killed my younger brother.
> Undulant fever definition - Medical Dictionary Definitions of Popular Terms Defined on MedTerms
> 
> 
> 
> What makes you think it was caused by raw milk. Was raw milk your only food? Was it you only exposure risk?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> @rawmilkmike
> I live in the UK. Undulant fever then was classified as a "notifiable disease" which meant department of health specialist descended on us.This was 55yrs ago and we had milk delivered from our local farm only.The Department of Health came to a very factual conclusion that it was the milk that infected us and six other neighbours kids.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Was raw milk your only food? Was it your only exposure risk? 55yrs ago did you really have raw milk delivered from your local farm? What facts could have supported such a conclusion? Even today such accusations are not supported by the facts. Currently all 50 states, Puerto Rico and the U.S. Virgin Islands are brucellosis Class Free.
Click to expand...

My mother was from Eastern Europe, she had trained in France to be a Doctor. The other neighbors kids ate very different food to us.All I remember is the farmer was prosecuted and found guilty.He then had to replace his pasteurization machinery. My mother then bought a house cow for milk. 
It is legal in the UK for farmers to sell "raw" milk from their premises.Brucellosis was eradicated in the UK around 1980.


----------



## Cav Scout

I.P.Freely said:


> rawmilkmike said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I.P.Freely said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rawmilkmike said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I.P.Freely said:
> 
> 
> 
> My two brothers and I caught Undulant fever from raw milk, it nearly killed my younger brother.
> Undulant fever definition - Medical Dictionary Definitions of Popular Terms Defined on MedTerms
> 
> 
> 
> What makes you think it was caused by raw milk. Was raw milk your only food? Was it you only exposure risk?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> @rawmilkmike
> I live in the UK. Undulant fever then was classified as a "notifiable disease" which meant department of health specialist descended on us.This was 55yrs ago and we had milk delivered from our local farm only.The Department of Health came to a very factual conclusion that it was the milk that infected us and six other neighbours kids.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Was raw milk your only food? Was it your only exposure risk? 55yrs ago did you really have raw milk delivered from your local farm? What facts could have supported such a conclusion? Even today such accusations are not supported by the facts. Currently all 50 states, Puerto Rico and the U.S. Virgin Islands are brucellosis Class Free.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> My mother was from Eastern Europe, she had trained in France to be a Doctor. The other neighbors kids ate very different food to us.All I remember is the farmer was prosecuted and found guilty.He then had to replace his pasteurization machinery. My mother then bought a house cow for milk.
> It is legal in the UK for farmers to sell "raw" milk from their premises.Brucellosis was eradicated in the UK around 1980.
Click to expand...

LOL Brucellosis (bangs) has not ever been 'eradicated' anywhere.


----------



## I.P.Freely

Cav Scout said:


> I.P.Freely said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rawmilkmike said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I.P.Freely said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rawmilkmike said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I.P.Freely said:
> 
> 
> 
> My two brothers and I caught Undulant fever from raw milk, it nearly killed my younger brother.
> Undulant fever definition - Medical Dictionary Definitions of Popular Terms Defined on MedTerms
> 
> 
> 
> What makes you think it was caused by raw milk. Was raw milk your only food? Was it you only exposure risk?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> @rawmilkmike
> I live in the UK. Undulant fever then was classified as a "notifiable disease" which meant department of health specialist descended on us.This was 55yrs ago and we had milk delivered from our local farm only.The Department of Health came to a very factual conclusion that it was the milk that infected us and six other neighbours kids.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Was raw milk your only food? Was it your only exposure risk? 55yrs ago did you really have raw milk delivered from your local farm? What facts could have supported such a conclusion? Even today such accusations are not supported by the facts. Currently all 50 states, Puerto Rico and the U.S. Virgin Islands are brucellosis Class Free.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> My mother was from Eastern Europe, she had trained in France to be a Doctor. The other neighbors kids ate very different food to us.All I remember is the farmer was prosecuted and found guilty.He then had to replace his pasteurization machinery. My mother then bought a house cow for milk.
> It is legal in the UK for farmers to sell "raw" milk from their premises.Brucellosis was eradicated in the UK around 1980.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> LOL Brucellosis (bangs) has not ever been 'eradicated' anywhere.
Click to expand...

 in cows? you better tell that to the BBC. BBC News - Selfridges raw milk farmer Stephen Hook to carry on selling But Mr Hook insisted: "Our cows are tested every year for TB and we have never had it. Brucellosis was eradicated as a cattle disease in this country in the early 1980s, so it is no longer an issue."


----------



## Yarddog

konradv said:


> Here's a little something to think about for those who keep telling us the government should stay out of our business and allow free sale of raw milk.
> 
> 45 in Utah have campylobacteriosis from raw milk - CNN.com




Raw Meat can be dangerous.   When not handled properly,  poultry in particular.  Hmmm  maybe for the good of the American people we can all be forced to be vegetarians.   And I imagine more Americans die a horrible death from Diabetes each year due to too much sugar, than will EVER die from Raw Milk. The real danger is giving away to much of our free will. pretty soon no one will be around who remembers what living life is.  Be a little more fatalistic about things, its good for you just like raw milk!  were all going to die someday.  (WAGTDS) .....  save this one for the acronym thread


----------



## Cav Scout

I.P.Freely said:


> Cav Scout said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I.P.Freely said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rawmilkmike said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I.P.Freely said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rawmilkmike said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I.P.Freely said:
> 
> 
> 
> My two brothers and I caught Undulant fever from raw milk, it nearly killed my younger brother.
> Undulant fever definition - Medical Dictionary Definitions of Popular Terms Defined on MedTerms
> 
> 
> 
> What makes you think it was caused by raw milk. Was raw milk your only food? Was it you only exposure risk?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> @rawmilkmike
> I live in the UK. Undulant fever then was classified as a "notifiable disease" which meant department of health specialist descended on us.This was 55yrs ago and we had milk delivered from our local farm only.The Department of Health came to a very factual conclusion that it was the milk that infected us and six other neighbours kids.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Was raw milk your only food? Was it your only exposure risk? 55yrs ago did you really have raw milk delivered from your local farm? What facts could have supported such a conclusion? Even today such accusations are not supported by the facts. Currently all 50 states, Puerto Rico and the U.S. Virgin Islands are brucellosis Class Free.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> My mother was from Eastern Europe, she had trained in France to be a Doctor. The other neighbors kids ate very different food to us.All I remember is the farmer was prosecuted and found guilty.He then had to replace his pasteurization machinery. My mother then bought a house cow for milk.
> It is legal in the UK for farmers to sell "raw" milk from their premises.Brucellosis was eradicated in the UK around 1980.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> LOL Brucellosis (bangs) has not ever been 'eradicated' anywhere.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> in cows? you better tell that to the BBC. BBC News - Selfridges raw milk farmer Stephen Hook to carry on selling But Mr Hook insisted: "Our cows are tested every year for TB and we have never had it. Brucellosis was eradicated as a cattle disease in this country in the early 1980s, so it is no longer an issue."
Click to expand...


Are there Deer in the UK?


----------



## I.P.Freely

Yarddog said:


> konradv said:
> 
> 
> 
> Here's a little something to think about for those who keep telling us the government should stay out of our business and allow free sale of raw milk.
> 
> 45 in Utah have campylobacteriosis from raw milk - CNN.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Raw Meat can be dangerous.   When not handled properly,  poultry in particular.  Hmmm  maybe for the good of the American people we can all be forced to be vegetarians.   And I imagine more Americans die a horrible death from Diabetes each year due to too much sugar, than will EVER die from Raw Milk. The real danger is giving away to much of our free will. pretty soon no one will be around who remembers what living life is.  Be a little more fatalistic about things, its good for you just like raw milk!  were all going to die someday.  (WAGTDS) .....  save this one for the acronym thread
Click to expand...

America love affair with fast foods is deadly. Consumer Reports Fruits and vegetables are common causes of food-borne illness - The Washington Post


----------



## Cav Scout

I.P.Freely said:


> Yarddog said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> konradv said:
> 
> 
> 
> Here's a little something to think about for those who keep telling us the government should stay out of our business and allow free sale of raw milk.
> 
> 45 in Utah have campylobacteriosis from raw milk - CNN.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Raw Meat can be dangerous.   When not handled properly,  poultry in particular.  Hmmm  maybe for the good of the American people we can all be forced to be vegetarians.   And I imagine more Americans die a horrible death from Diabetes each year due to too much sugar, than will EVER die from Raw Milk. The real danger is giving away to much of our free will. pretty soon no one will be around who remembers what living life is.  Be a little more fatalistic about things, its good for you just like raw milk!  were all going to die someday.  (WAGTDS) .....  save this one for the acronym thread
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> America love affair with fast foods is deadly. Consumer Reports Fruits and vegetables are common causes of food-borne illness - The Washington Post
Click to expand...

Fast food and fresh fruit have what in common, please remind me?


----------



## I.P.Freely

Cav Scout said:


> I.P.Freely said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cav Scout said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I.P.Freely said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rawmilkmike said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I.P.Freely said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rawmilkmike said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I.P.Freely said:
> 
> 
> 
> My two brothers and I caught Undulant fever from raw milk, it nearly killed my younger brother.
> Undulant fever definition - Medical Dictionary Definitions of Popular Terms Defined on MedTerms
> 
> 
> 
> What makes you think it was caused by raw milk. Was raw milk your only food? Was it you only exposure risk?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> @rawmilkmike
> I live in the UK. Undulant fever then was classified as a "notifiable disease" which meant department of health specialist descended on us.This was 55yrs ago and we had milk delivered from our local farm only.The Department of Health came to a very factual conclusion that it was the milk that infected us and six other neighbours kids.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Was raw milk your only food? Was it your only exposure risk? 55yrs ago did you really have raw milk delivered from your local farm? What facts could have supported such a conclusion? Even today such accusations are not supported by the facts. Currently all 50 states, Puerto Rico and the U.S. Virgin Islands are brucellosis Class Free.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> My mother was from Eastern Europe, she had trained in France to be a Doctor. The other neighbors kids ate very different food to us.All I remember is the farmer was prosecuted and found guilty.He then had to replace his pasteurization machinery. My mother then bought a house cow for milk.
> It is legal in the UK for farmers to sell "raw" milk from their premises.Brucellosis was eradicated in the UK around 1980.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> LOL Brucellosis (bangs) has not ever been 'eradicated' anywhere.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> in cows? you better tell that to the BBC. BBC News - Selfridges raw milk farmer Stephen Hook to carry on selling But Mr Hook insisted: "Our cows are tested every year for TB and we have never had it. Brucellosis was eradicated as a cattle disease in this country in the early 1980s, so it is no longer an issue."
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Are there Deer in the UK?
Click to expand...

yes, but although the have horns the do not look like cows. There are no wild Deer near us apart from in Chester Zoo.


----------



## rawmilkmike

Cav Scout said:


> rawmilkmike said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cav Scout said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> konradv said:
> 
> 
> 
> Here's a little something to think about for those who keep telling us the government should stay out of our business and allow free sale of raw milk.
> 
> 45 in Utah have campylobacteriosis from raw milk - CNN.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Awe.. that is too bad.  Stay the hell out of what I eat, drink and feed my kids.  Grew up on a small dairy farm, none of us died.
> 
> I eat raw pork liver as well.
> 
> Stupid idiots did not know how to take care of their milk.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> That may or may not be true but there is no reason to stipulate to the propaganda. There is no reason to believe that any of these people were sickened by their milk.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Sure they were, but it was not the milks fault, it was the way it was taken care of and environment it was in when it was handled.
> 
> Possibly it was a certain cow, if that milk was predominantly from a cold cow, well then it makes perfect sense.  Look man, I believe in drinking whole, raw milk, I drink it every day.  But don't play that it is always golden crap, you can feed someone bad milk, just like you can bad meat or anything else.
> 
> The question is, do you have the 'stomach' to deal with bad food, and most today do not.
Click to expand...

I grew up believing the same thing and in many ways I still do but in researching raw foods I have learned to question what I now call propaganda. Yes, there is such a thing as bacteria and you don't want to inject them directly into your bloodstream but we are talking about food. 

I really want to trust you but you say “Sure they were, don't play that it is always golden crap, you can feed someone bad milk, just like you can bad meat or anything else.” then you say “Possibly it was a certain cow”. That makes me so mad. Are you sure or just speculating? The state will have you running around like a chicken with it's head cut off.

I don't like curds and whey. That doesn't mean they're unhealthy for me. The same goes for raw meat and fish. Most Americans won't eat them raw let alone when they're stinking to high haven. That doesn't make them unhealthy for them. Haven't you heard the story about the arctic explorer and the Eskimos?


----------



## Cav Scout

I.P.Freely said:


> Cav Scout said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I.P.Freely said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cav Scout said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I.P.Freely said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rawmilkmike said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I.P.Freely said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rawmilkmike said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I.P.Freely said:
> 
> 
> 
> My two brothers and I caught Undulant fever from raw milk, it nearly killed my younger brother.
> Undulant fever definition - Medical Dictionary Definitions of Popular Terms Defined on MedTerms
> 
> 
> 
> What makes you think it was caused by raw milk. Was raw milk your only food? Was it you only exposure risk?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> @rawmilkmike
> I live in the UK. Undulant fever then was classified as a "notifiable disease" which meant department of health specialist descended on us.This was 55yrs ago and we had milk delivered from our local farm only.The Department of Health came to a very factual conclusion that it was the milk that infected us and six other neighbours kids.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Was raw milk your only food? Was it your only exposure risk? 55yrs ago did you really have raw milk delivered from your local farm? What facts could have supported such a conclusion? Even today such accusations are not supported by the facts. Currently all 50 states, Puerto Rico and the U.S. Virgin Islands are brucellosis Class Free.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> My mother was from Eastern Europe, she had trained in France to be a Doctor. The other neighbors kids ate very different food to us.All I remember is the farmer was prosecuted and found guilty.He then had to replace his pasteurization machinery. My mother then bought a house cow for milk.
> It is legal in the UK for farmers to sell "raw" milk from their premises.Brucellosis was eradicated in the UK around 1980.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> LOL Brucellosis (bangs) has not ever been 'eradicated' anywhere.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> in cows? you better tell that to the BBC. BBC News - Selfridges raw milk farmer Stephen Hook to carry on selling But Mr Hook insisted: "Our cows are tested every year for TB and we have never had it. Brucellosis was eradicated as a cattle disease in this country in the early 1980s, so it is no longer an issue."
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Are there Deer in the UK?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> yes, but although the have horns the do not look like cows. There are no wild Deer near us apart from in Chester Zoo.
Click to expand...


Well then here is this, Bangs has not ever been 'eradicated' anywhere there are four legged hoofed critters, it has been handled and mostly vaccinated out of cattle.  But it has NEVER been eradicated anywhere.  You can have bangs free herds in an area for a 'while', but if there is a four legged wild critter of the sheep, goat, bovine, elk, ancestry around it is NOT eradicated.  Period.


----------



## Cav Scout

rawmilkmike said:


> Cav Scout said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rawmilkmike said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cav Scout said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> konradv said:
> 
> 
> 
> Here's a little something to think about for those who keep telling us the government should stay out of our business and allow free sale of raw milk.
> 
> 45 in Utah have campylobacteriosis from raw milk - CNN.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Awe.. that is too bad.  Stay the hell out of what I eat, drink and feed my kids.  Grew up on a small dairy farm, none of us died.
> 
> I eat raw pork liver as well.
> 
> Stupid idiots did not know how to take care of their milk.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> That may or may not be true but there is no reason to stipulate to the propaganda. There is no reason to believe that any of these people were sickened by their milk.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Sure they were, but it was not the milks fault, it was the way it was taken care of and environment it was in when it was handled.
> 
> Possibly it was a certain cow, if that milk was predominantly from a cold cow, well then it makes perfect sense.  Look man, I believe in drinking whole, raw milk, I drink it every day.  But don't play that it is always golden crap, you can feed someone bad milk, just like you can bad meat or anything else.
> 
> The question is, do you have the 'stomach' to deal with bad food, and most today do not.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I grew up believing the same thing and in many ways I still do but in researching raw foods I have learned to question what I now call propaganda. Yes, there is such a thing as bacteria and you don't want to inject them directly into your bloodstream but we are talking about food.
> 
> I really want to trust you but you say “Sure they were, don't play that it is always golden crap, you can feed someone bad milk, just like you can bad meat or anything else.” then you say “Possibly it was a certain cow”. That makes me so mad. Are you sure or just speculating? The state will have you running around like a chicken with it's head cut off.
> 
> I don't like curds and whey. That doesn't mean they're unhealthy for me. The same goes for raw meat and fish. Most Americans won't eat them raw let alone when they're stinking to high haven. That doesn't make them unhealthy for them. Haven't you heard the story about the arctic explorer and the Eskimos?
Click to expand...


No, I am saying you have no clue what you are talking about.

It could have been the milk or it could have been something entirely different.  There is no actual proof in the posted links, however, if the milk caused it, it was not the fault of the milk, it was the fault of those that handled it.  Their process, or their environment that they controlled.  

Look man I have pictures of me as a kid drinking milk being squirted at me from a mast cow... it will not hurt you when it is sterile.

What happens after the cow is not the milks fault.


----------



## I.P.Freely

Cav Scout said:


> I.P.Freely said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yarddog said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> konradv said:
> 
> 
> 
> Here's a little something to think about for those who keep telling us the government should stay out of our business and allow free sale of raw milk.
> 
> 45 in Utah have campylobacteriosis from raw milk - CNN.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Raw Meat can be dangerous.   When not handled properly,  poultry in particular.  Hmmm  maybe for the good of the American people we can all be forced to be vegetarians.   And I imagine more Americans die a horrible death from Diabetes each year due to too much sugar, than will EVER die from Raw Milk. The real danger is giving away to much of our free will. pretty soon no one will be around who remembers what living life is.  Be a little more fatalistic about things, its good for you just like raw milk!  were all going to die someday.  (WAGTDS) .....  save this one for the acronym thread
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> America love affair with fast foods is deadly. Consumer Reports Fruits and vegetables are common causes of food-borne illness - The Washington Post
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Fast food and fresh fruit have what in common, please remind me?
Click to expand...

 I was replying to konradv suggestion, to quote


Cav Scout said:


> I.P.Freely said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yarddog said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> konradv said:
> 
> 
> 
> Here's a little something to think about for those who keep telling us the government should stay out of our business and allow free sale of raw milk.
> 
> 45 in Utah have campylobacteriosis from raw milk - CNN.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Raw Meat can be dangerous.   When not handled properly,  poultry in particular.  Hmmm  maybe for the good of the American people we can all be forced to be vegetarians.   And I imagine more Americans die a horrible death from Diabetes each year due to too much sugar, than will EVER die from Raw Milk. The real danger is giving away to much of our free will. pretty soon no one will be around who remembers what living life is.  Be a little more fatalistic about things, its good for you just like raw milk!  were all going to die someday.  (WAGTDS) .....  save this one for the acronym thread
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> America love affair with fast foods is deadly. Consumer Reports Fruits and vegetables are common causes of food-borne illness - The Washington Post
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Fast food and fresh fruit have what in common, please remind me?
Click to expand...

read konradv post and you may understand.


----------



## rawmilkmike

Cav Scout said:


> I.P.Freely said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yarddog said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> konradv said:
> 
> 
> 
> Here's a little something to think about for those who keep telling us the government should stay out of our business and allow free sale of raw milk.
> 
> 45 in Utah have campylobacteriosis from raw milk - CNN.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Raw Meat can be dangerous.   When not handled properly,  poultry in particular.  Hmmm  maybe for the good of the American people we can all be forced to be vegetarians.   And I imagine more Americans die a horrible death from Diabetes each year due to too much sugar, than will EVER die from Raw Milk. The real danger is giving away to much of our free will. pretty soon no one will be around who remembers what living life is.  Be a little more fatalistic about things, its good for you just like raw milk!  were all going to die someday.  (WAGTDS) .....  save this one for the acronym thread
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> America love affair with fast foods is deadly. Consumer Reports Fruits and vegetables are common causes of food-borne illness - The Washington Post
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Fast food and fresh fruit have what in common, please remind me?
Click to expand...

The next thing you know they're going to want to irradiate our salads.


----------



## I.P.Freely

Cav Scout said:


> I.P.Freely said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cav Scout said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I.P.Freely said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cav Scout said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I.P.Freely said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rawmilkmike said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I.P.Freely said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rawmilkmike said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I.P.Freely said:
> 
> 
> 
> My two brothers and I caught Undulant fever from raw milk, it nearly killed my younger brother.
> Undulant fever definition - Medical Dictionary Definitions of Popular Terms Defined on MedTerms
> 
> 
> 
> What makes you think it was caused by raw milk. Was raw milk your only food? Was it you only exposure risk?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> @rawmilkmike
> I live in the UK. Undulant fever then was classified as a "notifiable disease" which meant department of health specialist descended on us.This was 55yrs ago and we had milk delivered from our local farm only.The Department of Health came to a very factual conclusion that it was the milk that infected us and six other neighbours kids.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Was raw milk your only food? Was it your only exposure risk? 55yrs ago did you really have raw milk delivered from your local farm? What facts could have supported such a conclusion? Even today such accusations are not supported by the facts. Currently all 50 states, Puerto Rico and the U.S. Virgin Islands are brucellosis Class Free.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> My mother was from Eastern Europe, she had trained in France to be a Doctor. The other neighbors kids ate very different food to us.All I remember is the farmer was prosecuted and found guilty.He then had to replace his pasteurization machinery. My mother then bought a house cow for milk.
> It is legal in the UK for farmers to sell "raw" milk from their premises.Brucellosis was eradicated in the UK around 1980.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> LOL Brucellosis (bangs) has not ever been 'eradicated' anywhere.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> in cows? you better tell that to the BBC. BBC News - Selfridges raw milk farmer Stephen Hook to carry on selling But Mr Hook insisted: "Our cows are tested every year for TB and we have never had it. Brucellosis was eradicated as a cattle disease in this country in the early 1980s, so it is no longer an issue."
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Are there Deer in the UK?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> yes, but although the have horns the do not look like cows. There are no wild Deer near us apart from in Chester Zoo.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Well then here is this, Bangs has not ever been 'eradicated' anywhere there are four legged hoofed critters, it has been handled and mostly vaccinated out of cattle.  But it has NEVER been eradicated anywhere.  You can have bangs free herds in an area for a 'while', but if there is a four legged wild critter of the sheep, goat, bovine, elk, ancestry around it is NOT eradicated.  Period.
Click to expand...

I think I would prefer to believe  Defra Brucellosis Animal Health and Veterinary Laboratories Agency
to quote Defra "The last confirmed case of Brucellosis (Brucella arbortus) in the UK occurred in 2004."


----------



## I.P.Freely

rawmilkmike said:


> Cav Scout said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I.P.Freely said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yarddog said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> konradv said:
> 
> 
> 
> Here's a little something to think about for those who keep telling us the government should stay out of our business and allow free sale of raw milk.
> 
> 45 in Utah have campylobacteriosis from raw milk - CNN.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Raw Meat can be dangerous.   When not handled properly,  poultry in particular.  Hmmm  maybe for the good of the American people we can all be forced to be vegetarians.   And I imagine more Americans die a horrible death from Diabetes each year due to too much sugar, than will EVER die from Raw Milk. The real danger is giving away to much of our free will. pretty soon no one will be around who remembers what living life is.  Be a little more fatalistic about things, its good for you just like raw milk!  were all going to die someday.  (WAGTDS) .....  save this one for the acronym thread
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> America love affair with fast foods is deadly. Consumer Reports Fruits and vegetables are common causes of food-borne illness - The Washington Post
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Fast food and fresh fruit have what in common, please remind me?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The next thing you know they're going to want to irradiate our salads.
Click to expand...

Most food is safe if it is prepared properly by a person with clean hands preferably.


----------



## Cav Scout

I.P.Freely said:


> Cav Scout said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I.P.Freely said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cav Scout said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I.P.Freely said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cav Scout said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I.P.Freely said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rawmilkmike said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I.P.Freely said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rawmilkmike said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I.P.Freely said:
> 
> 
> 
> My two brothers and I caught Undulant fever from raw milk, it nearly killed my younger brother.
> Undulant fever definition - Medical Dictionary Definitions of Popular Terms Defined on MedTerms
> 
> 
> 
> What makes you think it was caused by raw milk. Was raw milk your only food? Was it you only exposure risk?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> @rawmilkmike
> I live in the UK. Undulant fever then was classified as a "notifiable disease" which meant department of health specialist descended on us.This was 55yrs ago and we had milk delivered from our local farm only.The Department of Health came to a very factual conclusion that it was the milk that infected us and six other neighbours kids.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Was raw milk your only food? Was it your only exposure risk? 55yrs ago did you really have raw milk delivered from your local farm? What facts could have supported such a conclusion? Even today such accusations are not supported by the facts. Currently all 50 states, Puerto Rico and the U.S. Virgin Islands are brucellosis Class Free.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> My mother was from Eastern Europe, she had trained in France to be a Doctor. The other neighbors kids ate very different food to us.All I remember is the farmer was prosecuted and found guilty.He then had to replace his pasteurization machinery. My mother then bought a house cow for milk.
> It is legal in the UK for farmers to sell "raw" milk from their premises.Brucellosis was eradicated in the UK around 1980.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> LOL Brucellosis (bangs) has not ever been 'eradicated' anywhere.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> in cows? you better tell that to the BBC. BBC News - Selfridges raw milk farmer Stephen Hook to carry on selling But Mr Hook insisted: "Our cows are tested every year for TB and we have never had it. Brucellosis was eradicated as a cattle disease in this country in the early 1980s, so it is no longer an issue."
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Are there Deer in the UK?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> yes, but although the have horns the do not look like cows. There are no wild Deer near us apart from in Chester Zoo.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Well then here is this, Bangs has not ever been 'eradicated' anywhere there are four legged hoofed critters, it has been handled and mostly vaccinated out of cattle.  But it has NEVER been eradicated anywhere.  You can have bangs free herds in an area for a 'while', but if there is a four legged wild critter of the sheep, goat, bovine, elk, ancestry around it is NOT eradicated.  Period.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I think I would prefer to believe  Defra Brucellosis Animal Health and Veterinary Laboratories Agency
> to quote Defra "The last confirmed case of Brucellosis (Brucella arbortus) in the UK occurred in 2004."
Click to expand...



Wait... 80's.... 2004.....

Isn't this the same nation that eradicated Mad Cow?  

Like five times now in the last fifteen years....

Something makes me think your milk mindedness and your math are both drunker than I am.


----------



## Cav Scout

I.P.Freely said:


> rawmilkmike said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cav Scout said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I.P.Freely said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yarddog said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> konradv said:
> 
> 
> 
> Here's a little something to think about for those who keep telling us the government should stay out of our business and allow free sale of raw milk.
> 
> 45 in Utah have campylobacteriosis from raw milk - CNN.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Raw Meat can be dangerous.   When not handled properly,  poultry in particular.  Hmmm  maybe for the good of the American people we can all be forced to be vegetarians.   And I imagine more Americans die a horrible death from Diabetes each year due to too much sugar, than will EVER die from Raw Milk. The real danger is giving away to much of our free will. pretty soon no one will be around who remembers what living life is.  Be a little more fatalistic about things, its good for you just like raw milk!  were all going to die someday.  (WAGTDS) .....  save this one for the acronym thread
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> America love affair with fast foods is deadly. Consumer Reports Fruits and vegetables are common causes of food-borne illness - The Washington Post
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Fast food and fresh fruit have what in common, please remind me?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The next thing you know they're going to want to irradiate our salads.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Most food is safe if it is prepared properly by a person with clean hands preferably.
Click to expand...


Most food is safe if you take care of it properly...  PERIOD>


----------



## rawmilkmike

Cav Scout said:


> rawmilkmike said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cav Scout said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rawmilkmike said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cav Scout said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> konradv said:
> 
> 
> 
> Here's a little something to think about for those who keep telling us the government should stay out of our business and allow free sale of raw milk.
> 
> 45 in Utah have campylobacteriosis from raw milk - CNN.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Awe.. that is too bad.  Stay the hell out of what I eat, drink and feed my kids.  Grew up on a small dairy farm, none of us died.
> 
> I eat raw pork liver as well.
> 
> Stupid idiots did not know how to take care of their milk.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> That may or may not be true but there is no reason to stipulate to the propaganda. There is no reason to believe that any of these people were sickened by their milk.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Sure they were, but it was not the milks fault, it was the way it was taken care of and environment it was in when it was handled.
> 
> Possibly it was a certain cow, if that milk was predominantly from a cold cow, well then it makes perfect sense.  Look man, I believe in drinking whole, raw milk, I drink it every day.  But don't play that it is always golden crap, you can feed someone bad milk, just like you can bad meat or anything else.
> 
> The question is, do you have the 'stomach' to deal with bad food, and most today do not.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I grew up believing the same thing and in many ways I still do but in researching raw foods I have learned to question what I now call propaganda. Yes, there is such a thing as bacteria and you don't want to inject them directly into your bloodstream but we are talking about food.
> 
> I really want to trust you but you say “Sure they were, don't play that it is always golden crap, you can feed someone bad milk, just like you can bad meat or anything else.” then you say “Possibly it was a certain cow”. That makes me so mad. Are you sure or just speculating? The state will have you running around like a chicken with it's head cut off.
> 
> I don't like curds and whey. That doesn't mean they're unhealthy for me. The same goes for raw meat and fish. Most Americans won't eat them raw let alone when they're stinking to high haven. That doesn't make them unhealthy for them. Haven't you heard the story about the arctic explorer and the Eskimos?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No, I am saying you have no clue what you are talking about.
> 
> It could have been the milk or it could have been something entirely different.  There is no actual proof in the posted links, however, if the milk caused it, it was not the fault of the milk, it was the fault of those that handled it.  Their process, or their environment that they controlled.
> 
> Look man I have pictures of me as a kid drinking milk being squirted at me from a mast cow... it will not hurt you when it is sterile.
> 
> What happens after the cow is not the milks fault.
Click to expand...

My only point is that when ever milk is blamed for an illness "it could have been something entirely different.  There is no actual proof" so how do we know if it is even possible for raw milk to cause illness?


----------



## Cav Scout

rawmilkmike said:


> Cav Scout said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I.P.Freely said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yarddog said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> konradv said:
> 
> 
> 
> Here's a little something to think about for those who keep telling us the government should stay out of our business and allow free sale of raw milk.
> 
> 45 in Utah have campylobacteriosis from raw milk - CNN.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Raw Meat can be dangerous.   When not handled properly,  poultry in particular.  Hmmm  maybe for the good of the American people we can all be forced to be vegetarians.   And I imagine more Americans die a horrible death from Diabetes each year due to too much sugar, than will EVER die from Raw Milk. The real danger is giving away to much of our free will. pretty soon no one will be around who remembers what living life is.  Be a little more fatalistic about things, its good for you just like raw milk!  were all going to die someday.  (WAGTDS) .....  save this one for the acronym thread
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> America love affair with fast foods is deadly. Consumer Reports Fruits and vegetables are common causes of food-borne illness - The Washington Post
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Fast food and fresh fruit have what in common, please remind me?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The next thing you know they're going to want to irradiate our salads.
Click to expand...


I think that has already happened... 

You were eating it at that point...

One should not eat inside of the machines...


----------



## Cav Scout

rawmilkmike said:


> Cav Scout said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rawmilkmike said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cav Scout said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rawmilkmike said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cav Scout said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> konradv said:
> 
> 
> 
> Here's a little something to think about for those who keep telling us the government should stay out of our business and allow free sale of raw milk.
> 
> 45 in Utah have campylobacteriosis from raw milk - CNN.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Awe.. that is too bad.  Stay the hell out of what I eat, drink and feed my kids.  Grew up on a small dairy farm, none of us died.
> 
> I eat raw pork liver as well.
> 
> Stupid idiots did not know how to take care of their milk.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> That may or may not be true but there is no reason to stipulate to the propaganda. There is no reason to believe that any of these people were sickened by their milk.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Sure they were, but it was not the milks fault, it was the way it was taken care of and environment it was in when it was handled.
> 
> Possibly it was a certain cow, if that milk was predominantly from a cold cow, well then it makes perfect sense.  Look man, I believe in drinking whole, raw milk, I drink it every day.  But don't play that it is always golden crap, you can feed someone bad milk, just like you can bad meat or anything else.
> 
> The question is, do you have the 'stomach' to deal with bad food, and most today do not.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I grew up believing the same thing and in many ways I still do but in researching raw foods I have learned to question what I now call propaganda. Yes, there is such a thing as bacteria and you don't want to inject them directly into your bloodstream but we are talking about food.
> 
> I really want to trust you but you say “Sure they were, don't play that it is always golden crap, you can feed someone bad milk, just like you can bad meat or anything else.” then you say “Possibly it was a certain cow”. That makes me so mad. Are you sure or just speculating? The state will have you running around like a chicken with it's head cut off.
> 
> I don't like curds and whey. That doesn't mean they're unhealthy for me. The same goes for raw meat and fish. Most Americans won't eat them raw let alone when they're stinking to high haven. That doesn't make them unhealthy for them. Haven't you heard the story about the arctic explorer and the Eskimos?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No, I am saying you have no clue what you are talking about.
> 
> It could have been the milk or it could have been something entirely different.  There is no actual proof in the posted links, however, if the milk caused it, it was not the fault of the milk, it was the fault of those that handled it.  Their process, or their environment that they controlled.
> 
> Look man I have pictures of me as a kid drinking milk being squirted at me from a mast cow... it will not hurt you when it is sterile.
> 
> What happens after the cow is not the milks fault.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> My only point is that when ever milk is blamed for an illness "it could have been something entirely different.  There is no actual proof" so how do we know if it is even possible for raw milk to cause illness?
Click to expand...


Oh for gawds sake.  If you let anything... milk, meat, veggies, or pussy get contaminated, it will cause you illness.


----------



## I.P.Freely

Cav Scout said:


> I.P.Freely said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cav Scout said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I.P.Freely said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cav Scout said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I.P.Freely said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cav Scout said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I.P.Freely said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rawmilkmike said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I.P.Freely said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rawmilkmike said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I.P.Freely said:
> 
> 
> 
> My two brothers and I caught Undulant fever from raw milk, it nearly killed my younger brother.
> Undulant fever definition - Medical Dictionary Definitions of Popular Terms Defined on MedTerms
> 
> 
> 
> What makes you think it was caused by raw milk. Was raw milk your only food? Was it you only exposure risk?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> @rawmilkmike
> I live in the UK. Undulant fever then was classified as a "notifiable disease" which meant department of health specialist descended on us.This was 55yrs ago and we had milk delivered from our local farm only.The Department of Health came to a very factual conclusion that it was the milk that infected us and six other neighbours kids.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Was raw milk your only food? Was it your only exposure risk? 55yrs ago did you really have raw milk delivered from your local farm? What facts could have supported such a conclusion? Even today such accusations are not supported by the facts. Currently all 50 states, Puerto Rico and the U.S. Virgin Islands are brucellosis Class Free.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> My mother was from Eastern Europe, she had trained in France to be a Doctor. The other neighbors kids ate very different food to us.All I remember is the farmer was prosecuted and found guilty.He then had to replace his pasteurization machinery. My mother then bought a house cow for milk.
> It is legal in the UK for farmers to sell "raw" milk from their premises.Brucellosis was eradicated in the UK around 1980.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> LOL Brucellosis (bangs) has not ever been 'eradicated' anywhere.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> in cows? you better tell that to the BBC. BBC News - Selfridges raw milk farmer Stephen Hook to carry on selling But Mr Hook insisted: "Our cows are tested every year for TB and we have never had it. Brucellosis was eradicated as a cattle disease in this country in the early 1980s, so it is no longer an issue."
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Are there Deer in the UK?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> yes, but although the have horns the do not look like cows. There are no wild Deer near us apart from in Chester Zoo.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Well then here is this, Bangs has not ever been 'eradicated' anywhere there are four legged hoofed critters, it has been handled and mostly vaccinated out of cattle.  But it has NEVER been eradicated anywhere.  You can have bangs free herds in an area for a 'while', but if there is a four legged wild critter of the sheep, goat, bovine, elk, ancestry around it is NOT eradicated.  Period.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I think I would prefer to believe  Defra Brucellosis Animal Health and Veterinary Laboratories Agency
> to quote Defra "The last confirmed case of Brucellosis (Brucella arbortus) in the UK occurred in 2004."
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Wait... 80's.... 2004.....
> 
> Isn't this the same nation that eradicated Mad Cow?
> 
> Like five times now in the last fifteen years....
> 
> Something makes me think your milk mindedness and your math are both drunker than I am.
Click to expand...

I doubt that is possible, this may interest you CDC - Bovine Spongiform Encephalopathy BSE


----------



## I.P.Freely

Cav Scout said:


> rawmilkmike said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cav Scout said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rawmilkmike said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cav Scout said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rawmilkmike said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cav Scout said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> konradv said:
> 
> 
> 
> Here's a little something to think about for those who keep telling us the government should stay out of our business and allow free sale of raw milk.
> 
> 45 in Utah have campylobacteriosis from raw milk - CNN.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Awe.. that is too bad.  Stay the hell out of what I eat, drink and feed my kids.  Grew up on a small dairy farm, none of us died.
> 
> I eat raw pork liver as well.
> 
> Stupid idiots did not know how to take care of their milk.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> That may or may not be true but there is no reason to stipulate to the propaganda. There is no reason to believe that any of these people were sickened by their milk.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Sure they were, but it was not the milks fault, it was the way it was taken care of and environment it was in when it was handled.
> 
> Possibly it was a certain cow, if that milk was predominantly from a cold cow, well then it makes perfect sense.  Look man, I believe in drinking whole, raw milk, I drink it every day.  But don't play that it is always golden crap, you can feed someone bad milk, just like you can bad meat or anything else.
> 
> The question is, do you have the 'stomach' to deal with bad food, and most today do not.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I grew up believing the same thing and in many ways I still do but in researching raw foods I have learned to question what I now call propaganda. Yes, there is such a thing as bacteria and you don't want to inject them directly into your bloodstream but we are talking about food.
> 
> I really want to trust you but you say “Sure they were, don't play that it is always golden crap, you can feed someone bad milk, just like you can bad meat or anything else.” then you say “Possibly it was a certain cow”. That makes me so mad. Are you sure or just speculating? The state will have you running around like a chicken with it's head cut off.
> 
> I don't like curds and whey. That doesn't mean they're unhealthy for me. The same goes for raw meat and fish. Most Americans won't eat them raw let alone when they're stinking to high haven. That doesn't make them unhealthy for them. Haven't you heard the story about the arctic explorer and the Eskimos?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No, I am saying you have no clue what you are talking about.
> 
> It could have been the milk or it could have been something entirely different.  There is no actual proof in the posted links, however, if the milk caused it, it was not the fault of the milk, it was the fault of those that handled it.  Their process, or their environment that they controlled.
> 
> Look man I have pictures of me as a kid drinking milk being squirted at me from a mast cow... it will not hurt you when it is sterile.
> 
> What happens after the cow is not the milks fault.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> My only point is that when ever milk is blamed for an illness "it could have been something entirely different.  There is no actual proof" so how do we know if it is even possible for raw milk to cause illness?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Oh for gawds sake.  If you let anything... milk, meat, veggies, or pussy get contaminated, it will cause you illness.
Click to expand...

yes, I wonder what heat treated pussy taste like Cav..............chicken?


----------



## rawmilkmike

Cav Scout said:


> I.P.Freely said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cav Scout said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I.P.Freely said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cav Scout said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I.P.Freely said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cav Scout said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I.P.Freely said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rawmilkmike said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I.P.Freely said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rawmilkmike said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I.P.Freely said:
> 
> 
> 
> My two brothers and I caught Undulant fever from raw milk, it nearly killed my younger brother.
> Undulant fever definition - Medical Dictionary Definitions of Popular Terms Defined on MedTerms
> 
> 
> 
> What makes you think it was caused by raw milk. Was raw milk your only food? Was it you only exposure risk?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> @rawmilkmike
> I live in the UK. Undulant fever then was classified as a "notifiable disease" which meant department of health specialist descended on us.This was 55yrs ago and we had milk delivered from our local farm only.The Department of Health came to a very factual conclusion that it was the milk that infected us and six other neighbours kids.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Was raw milk your only food? Was it your only exposure risk? 55yrs ago did you really have raw milk delivered from your local farm? What facts could have supported such a conclusion? Even today such accusations are not supported by the facts. Currently all 50 states, Puerto Rico and the U.S. Virgin Islands are brucellosis Class Free.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> My mother was from Eastern Europe, she had trained in France to be a Doctor. The other neighbors kids ate very different food to us.All I remember is the farmer was prosecuted and found guilty.He then had to replace his pasteurization machinery. My mother then bought a house cow for milk.
> It is legal in the UK for farmers to sell "raw" milk from their premises.Brucellosis was eradicated in the UK around 1980.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> LOL Brucellosis (bangs) has not ever been 'eradicated' anywhere.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> in cows? you better tell that to the BBC. BBC News - Selfridges raw milk farmer Stephen Hook to carry on selling But Mr Hook insisted: "Our cows are tested every year for TB and we have never had it. Brucellosis was eradicated as a cattle disease in this country in the early 1980s, so it is no longer an issue."
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Are there Deer in the UK?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> yes, but although the have horns the do not look like cows. There are no wild Deer near us apart from in Chester Zoo.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Well then here is this, Bangs has not ever been 'eradicated' anywhere there are four legged hoofed critters, it has been handled and mostly vaccinated out of cattle.  But it has NEVER been eradicated anywhere.  You can have bangs free herds in an area for a 'while', but if there is a four legged wild critter of the sheep, goat, bovine, elk, ancestry around it is NOT eradicated.  Period.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I think I would prefer to believe  Defra Brucellosis Animal Health and Veterinary Laboratories Agency
> to quote Defra "The last confirmed case of Brucellosis (Brucella arbortus) in the UK occurred in 2004."
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Wait... 80's.... 2004.....
> 
> Isn't this the same nation that eradicated Mad Cow?
> 
> Like five times now in the last fifteen years....
> 
> Something makes me think your milk mindedness and your math are both drunker than I am.
Click to expand...

Thanks for your honesty. You never argue with a drunk. When you sober up you may remember that Bangs is seldom life threatening and that raw milk is still a super-food. Yes, these guys don't understand the technical definition of 'eradicated' but does that really matter?


----------



## rawmilkmike

Cav Scout said:


> rawmilkmike said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cav Scout said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rawmilkmike said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cav Scout said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rawmilkmike said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cav Scout said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> konradv said:
> 
> 
> 
> Here's a little something to think about for those who keep telling us the government should stay out of our business and allow free sale of raw milk.
> 
> 45 in Utah have campylobacteriosis from raw milk - CNN.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Awe.. that is too bad.  Stay the hell out of what I eat, drink and feed my kids.  Grew up on a small dairy farm, none of us died.
> 
> I eat raw pork liver as well.
> 
> Stupid idiots did not know how to take care of their milk.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> That may or may not be true but there is no reason to stipulate to the propaganda. There is no reason to believe that any of these people were sickened by their milk.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Sure they were, but it was not the milks fault, it was the way it was taken care of and environment it was in when it was handled.
> 
> Possibly it was a certain cow, if that milk was predominantly from a cold cow, well then it makes perfect sense.  Look man, I believe in drinking whole, raw milk, I drink it every day.  But don't play that it is always golden crap, you can feed someone bad milk, just like you can bad meat or anything else.
> 
> The question is, do you have the 'stomach' to deal with bad food, and most today do not.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I grew up believing the same thing and in many ways I still do but in researching raw foods I have learned to question what I now call propaganda. Yes, there is such a thing as bacteria and you don't want to inject them directly into your bloodstream but we are talking about food.
> 
> I really want to trust you but you say “Sure they were, don't play that it is always golden crap, you can feed someone bad milk, just like you can bad meat or anything else.” then you say “Possibly it was a certain cow”. That makes me so mad. Are you sure or just speculating? The state will have you running around like a chicken with it's head cut off.
> 
> I don't like curds and whey. That doesn't mean they're unhealthy for me. The same goes for raw meat and fish. Most Americans won't eat them raw let alone when they're stinking to high haven. That doesn't make them unhealthy for them. Haven't you heard the story about the arctic explorer and the Eskimos?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No, I am saying you have no clue what you are talking about.
> 
> It could have been the milk or it could have been something entirely different.  There is no actual proof in the posted links, however, if the milk caused it, it was not the fault of the milk, it was the fault of those that handled it.  Their process, or their environment that they controlled.
> 
> Look man I have pictures of me as a kid drinking milk being squirted at me from a mast cow... it will not hurt you when it is sterile.
> 
> What happens after the cow is not the milks fault.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> My only point is that when ever milk is blamed for an illness "it could have been something entirely different.  There is no actual proof" so how do we know if it is even possible for raw milk to cause illness?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Oh for gawds sake.  If you let anything... milk, meat, veggies, or pussy get contaminated, it will cause you illness.
Click to expand...

Another bad example. Isn't that self cleaning?


----------



## rawmilkmike

Yarddog said:


> konradv said:
> 
> 
> 
> Here's a little something to think about for those who keep telling us the government should stay out of our business and allow free sale of raw milk.
> 
> 45 in Utah have campylobacteriosis from raw milk - CNN.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Raw Meat can be dangerous.   When not handled properly,  poultry in particular.  Hmmm  maybe for the good of the American people we can all be forced to be vegetarians.   And I imagine more Americans die a horrible death from Diabetes each year due to too much sugar, than will EVER die from Raw Milk. The real danger is giving away to much of our free will. pretty soon no one will be around who remembers what living life is.  Be a little more fatalistic about things, its good for you just like raw milk!  were all going to die someday.  (WAGTDS) .....  save this one for the acronym thread
Click to expand...

Correction: the CDC hasn't documented any deaths associated with raw fluid milk consumption.


----------



## I.P.Freely

rawmilkmike said:


> Cav Scout said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I.P.Freely said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cav Scout said:
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> 
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> I.P.Freely said:
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> 
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> Cav Scout said:
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> I.P.Freely said:
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> Cav Scout said:
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> I.P.Freely said:
> 
> 
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> 
> rawmilkmike said:
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> 
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> 
> I.P.Freely said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rawmilkmike said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I.P.Freely said:
> 
> 
> 
> My two brothers and I caught Undulant fever from raw milk, it nearly killed my younger brother.
> Undulant fever definition - Medical Dictionary Definitions of Popular Terms Defined on MedTerms
> 
> 
> 
> What makes you think it was caused by raw milk. Was raw milk your only food? Was it you only exposure risk?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> @rawmilkmike
> I live in the UK. Undulant fever then was classified as a "notifiable disease" which meant department of health specialist descended on us.This was 55yrs ago and we had milk delivered from our local farm only.The Department of Health came to a very factual conclusion that it was the milk that infected us and six other neighbours kids.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Was raw milk your only food? Was it your only exposure risk? 55yrs ago did you really have raw milk delivered from your local farm? What facts could have supported such a conclusion? Even today such accusations are not supported by the facts. Currently all 50 states, Puerto Rico and the U.S. Virgin Islands are brucellosis Class Free.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> My mother was from Eastern Europe, she had trained in France to be a Doctor. The other neighbors kids ate very different food to us.All I remember is the farmer was prosecuted and found guilty.He then had to replace his pasteurization machinery. My mother then bought a house cow for milk.
> It is legal in the UK for farmers to sell "raw" milk from their premises.Brucellosis was eradicated in the UK around 1980.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> LOL Brucellosis (bangs) has not ever been 'eradicated' anywhere.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> in cows? you better tell that to the BBC. BBC News - Selfridges raw milk farmer Stephen Hook to carry on selling But Mr Hook insisted: "Our cows are tested every year for TB and we have never had it. Brucellosis was eradicated as a cattle disease in this country in the early 1980s, so it is no longer an issue."
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Are there Deer in the UK?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> yes, but although the have horns the do not look like cows. There are no wild Deer near us apart from in Chester Zoo.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Well then here is this, Bangs has not ever been 'eradicated' anywhere there are four legged hoofed critters, it has been handled and mostly vaccinated out of cattle.  But it has NEVER been eradicated anywhere.  You can have bangs free herds in an area for a 'while', but if there is a four legged wild critter of the sheep, goat, bovine, elk, ancestry around it is NOT eradicated.  Period.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I think I would prefer to believe  Defra Brucellosis Animal Health and Veterinary Laboratories Agency
> to quote Defra "The last confirmed case of Brucellosis (Brucella arbortus) in the UK occurred in 2004."
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Wait... 80's.... 2004.....
> 
> Isn't this the same nation that eradicated Mad Cow?
> 
> Like five times now in the last fifteen years....
> 
> Something makes me think your milk mindedness and your math are both drunker than I am.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Thanks for your honesty. You never argue with a drunk. When you sober up you may remember that Bangs is seldom life threatening and that raw milk is still a super-food. Yes, these guys don't understand the technical definition of 'eradicated' but does that really matter?
Click to expand...

I cant remember (mad Cow) the last time I drank milk! I will have a big slice of Brie de Meaux and some home made sour dough toast for brekkie in 30 mins.


----------



## rawmilkmike

I.P.Freely said:


> rawmilkmike said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cav Scout said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I.P.Freely said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yarddog said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> konradv said:
> 
> 
> 
> Here's a little something to think about for those who keep telling us the government should stay out of our business and allow free sale of raw milk.
> 
> 45 in Utah have campylobacteriosis from raw milk - CNN.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Raw Meat can be dangerous.   When not handled properly,  poultry in particular.  Hmmm  maybe for the good of the American people we can all be forced to be vegetarians.   And I imagine more Americans die a horrible death from Diabetes each year due to too much sugar, than will EVER die from Raw Milk. The real danger is giving away to much of our free will. pretty soon no one will be around who remembers what living life is.  Be a little more fatalistic about things, its good for you just like raw milk!  were all going to die someday.  (WAGTDS) .....  save this one for the acronym thread
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> America love affair with fast foods is deadly. Consumer Reports Fruits and vegetables are common causes of food-borne illness - The Washington Post
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Fast food and fresh fruit have what in common, please remind me?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The next thing you know they're going to want to irradiate our salads.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Most food is safe if it is prepared properly by a person with clean hands preferably.
Click to expand...

Yes, but food isn't the only thing they touch. And destroying the food is not really an option.


----------



## I.P.Freely

rawmilkmike said:


> Cav Scout said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rawmilkmike said:
> 
> 
> 
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> Cav Scout said:
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> rawmilkmike said:
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> Cav Scout said:
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> 
> rawmilkmike said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cav Scout said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> konradv said:
> 
> 
> 
> Here's a little something to think about for those who keep telling us the government should stay out of our business and allow free sale of raw milk.
> 
> 45 in Utah have campylobacteriosis from raw milk - CNN.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Awe.. that is too bad.  Stay the hell out of what I eat, drink and feed my kids.  Grew up on a small dairy farm, none of us died.
> 
> I eat raw pork liver as well.
> 
> Stupid idiots did not know how to take care of their milk.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> That may or may not be true but there is no reason to stipulate to the propaganda. There is no reason to believe that any of these people were sickened by their milk.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Sure they were, but it was not the milks fault, it was the way it was taken care of and environment it was in when it was handled.
> 
> Possibly it was a certain cow, if that milk was predominantly from a cold cow, well then it makes perfect sense.  Look man, I believe in drinking whole, raw milk, I drink it every day.  But don't play that it is always golden crap, you can feed someone bad milk, just like you can bad meat or anything else.
> 
> The question is, do you have the 'stomach' to deal with bad food, and most today do not.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I grew up believing the same thing and in many ways I still do but in researching raw foods I have learned to question what I now call propaganda. Yes, there is such a thing as bacteria and you don't want to inject them directly into your bloodstream but we are talking about food.
> 
> I really want to trust you but you say “Sure they were, don't play that it is always golden crap, you can feed someone bad milk, just like you can bad meat or anything else.” then you say “Possibly it was a certain cow”. That makes me so mad. Are you sure or just speculating? The state will have you running around like a chicken with it's head cut off.
> 
> I don't like curds and whey. That doesn't mean they're unhealthy for me. The same goes for raw meat and fish. Most Americans won't eat them raw let alone when they're stinking to high haven. That doesn't make them unhealthy for them. Haven't you heard the story about the arctic explorer and the Eskimos?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No, I am saying you have no clue what you are talking about.
> 
> It could have been the milk or it could have been something entirely different.  There is no actual proof in the posted links, however, if the milk caused it, it was not the fault of the milk, it was the fault of those that handled it.  Their process, or their environment that they controlled.
> 
> Look man I have pictures of me as a kid drinking milk being squirted at me from a mast cow... it will not hurt you when it is sterile.
> 
> What happens after the cow is not the milks fault.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> My only point is that when ever milk is blamed for an illness "it could have been something entirely different.  There is no actual proof" so how do we know if it is even possible for raw milk to cause illness?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Oh for gawds sake.  If you let anything... milk, meat, veggies, or pussy get contaminated, it will cause you illness.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Another bad example. Isn't that self cleaning?
Click to expand...

Not for the verbal variety of diarrhea.


----------



## rawmilkmike

Why do


I.P.Freely said:


> rawmilkmike said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cav Scout said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rawmilkmike said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cav Scout said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rawmilkmike said:
> 
> 
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> 
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> Cav Scout said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rawmilkmike said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cav Scout said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> konradv said:
> 
> 
> 
> Here's a little something to think about for those who keep telling us the government should stay out of our business and allow free sale of raw milk.
> 
> 45 in Utah have campylobacteriosis from raw milk - CNN.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Awe.. that is too bad.  Stay the hell out of what I eat, drink and feed my kids.  Grew up on a small dairy farm, none of us died.
> 
> I eat raw pork liver as well.
> 
> Stupid idiots did not know how to take care of their milk.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> That may or may not be true but there is no reason to stipulate to the propaganda. There is no reason to believe that any of these people were sickened by their milk.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Sure they were, but it was not the milks fault, it was the way it was taken care of and environment it was in when it was handled.
> 
> Possibly it was a certain cow, if that milk was predominantly from a cold cow, well then it makes perfect sense.  Look man, I believe in drinking whole, raw milk, I drink it every day.  But don't play that it is always golden crap, you can feed someone bad milk, just like you can bad meat or anything else.
> 
> The question is, do you have the 'stomach' to deal with bad food, and most today do not.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I grew up believing the same thing and in many ways I still do but in researching raw foods I have learned to question what I now call propaganda. Yes, there is such a thing as bacteria and you don't want to inject them directly into your bloodstream but we are talking about food.
> 
> I really want to trust you but you say “Sure they were, don't play that it is always golden crap, you can feed someone bad milk, just like you can bad meat or anything else.” then you say “Possibly it was a certain cow”. That makes me so mad. Are you sure or just speculating? The state will have you running around like a chicken with it's head cut off.
> 
> I don't like curds and whey. That doesn't mean they're unhealthy for me. The same goes for raw meat and fish. Most Americans won't eat them raw let alone when they're stinking to high haven. That doesn't make them unhealthy for them. Haven't you heard the story about the arctic explorer and the Eskimos?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No, I am saying you have no clue what you are talking about.
> 
> It could have been the milk or it could have been something entirely different.  There is no actual proof in the posted links, however, if the milk caused it, it was not the fault of the milk, it was the fault of those that handled it.  Their process, or their environment that they controlled.
> 
> Look man I have pictures of me as a kid drinking milk being squirted at me from a mast cow... it will not hurt you when it is sterile.
> 
> What happens after the cow is not the milks fault.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> My only point is that when ever milk is blamed for an illness "it could have been something entirely different.  There is no actual proof" so how do we know if it is even possible for raw milk to cause illness?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Oh for gawds sake.  If you let anything... milk, meat, veggies, or pussy get contaminated, it will cause you illness.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Another bad example. Isn't that self cleaning?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Not for the verbal variety of diarrhea.
Click to expand...

Why, does yours talk? But seriously:

“_From 1906 until 1918, Arctic explorer Vilhjalmur Stefansson (1879 - 1962) spent 11 years as an Eskimo among Eskimos. He was adopted into an Eskimo family, lived in tent, and ate fish and seal meat, often raw or fermented. He concluded that he had never been in better health in his life. He also writes about the excellent health, including dental health, and the absence of headaches experienced on exclusive animal-foods diet.”_

Vilhjalmur Stefansson Adventures in Diet - presented by Dr. Bass


----------



## I.P.Freely

rawmilkmike said:


> Why do
> 
> 
> I.P.Freely said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rawmilkmike said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cav Scout said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rawmilkmike said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cav Scout said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rawmilkmike said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
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> Cav Scout said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rawmilkmike said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cav Scout said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> konradv said:
> 
> 
> 
> Here's a little something to think about for those who keep telling us the government should stay out of our business and allow free sale of raw milk.
> 
> 45 in Utah have campylobacteriosis from raw milk - CNN.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Awe.. that is too bad.  Stay the hell out of what I eat, drink and feed my kids.  Grew up on a small dairy farm, none of us died.
> 
> I eat raw pork liver as well.
> 
> Stupid idiots did not know how to take care of their milk.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> That may or may not be true but there is no reason to stipulate to the propaganda. There is no reason to believe that any of these people were sickened by their milk.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Sure they were, but it was not the milks fault, it was the way it was taken care of and environment it was in when it was handled.
> 
> Possibly it was a certain cow, if that milk was predominantly from a cold cow, well then it makes perfect sense.  Look man, I believe in drinking whole, raw milk, I drink it every day.  But don't play that it is always golden crap, you can feed someone bad milk, just like you can bad meat or anything else.
> 
> The question is, do you have the 'stomach' to deal with bad food, and most today do not.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I grew up believing the same thing and in many ways I still do but in researching raw foods I have learned to question what I now call propaganda. Yes, there is such a thing as bacteria and you don't want to inject them directly into your bloodstream but we are talking about food.
> 
> I really want to trust you but you say “Sure they were, don't play that it is always golden crap, you can feed someone bad milk, just like you can bad meat or anything else.” then you say “Possibly it was a certain cow”. That makes me so mad. Are you sure or just speculating? The state will have you running around like a chicken with it's head cut off.
> 
> I don't like curds and whey. That doesn't mean they're unhealthy for me. The same goes for raw meat and fish. Most Americans won't eat them raw let alone when they're stinking to high haven. That doesn't make them unhealthy for them. Haven't you heard the story about the arctic explorer and the Eskimos?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No, I am saying you have no clue what you are talking about.
> 
> It could have been the milk or it could have been something entirely different.  There is no actual proof in the posted links, however, if the milk caused it, it was not the fault of the milk, it was the fault of those that handled it.  Their process, or their environment that they controlled.
> 
> Look man I have pictures of me as a kid drinking milk being squirted at me from a mast cow... it will not hurt you when it is sterile.
> 
> What happens after the cow is not the milks fault.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> My only point is that when ever milk is blamed for an illness "it could have been something entirely different.  There is no actual proof" so how do we know if it is even possible for raw milk to cause illness?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Oh for gawds sake.  If you let anything... milk, meat, veggies, or pussy get contaminated, it will cause you illness.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Another bad example. Isn't that self cleaning?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Not for the verbal variety of diarrhea.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Why, does yours talk? But seriously:
> 
> “_From 1906 until 1918, Arctic explorer Vilhjalmur Stefansson (1879 - 1962) spent 11 years as an Eskimo among Eskimos. He was adopted into an Eskimo family, lived in tent, and ate fish and seal meat, often raw or fermented. He concluded that he had never been in better health in his life. He also writes about the excellent health, including dental health, and the absence of headaches experienced on exclusive animal-foods diet.”_
> 
> Vilhjalmur Stefansson Adventures in Diet - presented by Dr. Bass
Click to expand...

I hope he was under 5ft 6" tall as "Eskimo women" wash the hair in their own urine and love to waltz


----------



## rawmilkmike

Cav Scout said:


> rawmilkmike said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cav Scout said:
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> 
> 
> 
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> ogibillm said:
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> rawmilkmike said:
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> ogibillm said:
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> rawmilkmike said:
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> ogibillm said:
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> rawmilkmike said:
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> koshergrl said:
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> rawmilkmike said:
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> 
> 
> 
> 
> ogibillm said:
> 
> 
> 
> raw milk kills infants. undeniable fact.
> 
> 
> 
> That's a new one. Where's your proof? The CDC doesn't have any documented deaths from raw milk.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> "While many raw milk advocates say it has inherent nutritional advantages and even helps cure or ease the symptoms of ailments such as asthma and various allergies, most food-safety experts discount those claims as anecdotal, saying they’re not based on science. They also warn of the serious risks to human health associated with drinking milk that hasn’t been pasteurized."
> 
> A Mom and a Dairyman Plead Don t Feed Children Raw Milk Food Safety News
> 
> Oh..and incidentally...
> 
> "_Campylobacter _is common in the developing world, and travelers to foreign countries are at risk for becoming infected with _Campylobacter_. Approximately one-fifth (19%) of _Campylobacter_ cases identified in FoodNet are associated with international travel."
> 
> CDC - Campylobacter General Information - NCZVED
> Don't buy raw milk from people who hire undocumenteds. It's just another illness like tb that you are more likely to catch if you do.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> koshergrl says: “raw milk kills infants. undeniable fact.”
> 
> 
> rawmilkmike says: “That's a new one. Where's your proof? The CDC doesn't have any documented deaths from raw milk.”
> 
> 
> koshergrl is speechless.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> From 1998 through 2011, 148 outbreaks due to consumption of raw milk or raw milk products were reported to CDC. These resulted in 2,384 illnesses, 284 hospitalizations, and 2 deaths.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> CDC - Raw Milk Questions and Answers - Food Safety
> 
> 
> 
> The impact of pasteurized milk on public health was nothing short of astounding. In 1885 the infant mortality rate in New York City was 273 per 1,000 live births -more than 27%. By 1915 the infant mortality rate was 94 per 1,000, a drop of two-thirds.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The Fight for Safe Milk Pasteurization - Neatorama
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> It says “raw milk or raw milk products” The two deaths were associated with cheese not milk.
> 
> Infant mortality was normally high among immigrants. Have you read some of the concoctions fed to infants back then? There is no evidence that it was ever caused by raw milk. Lack of raw milk maybe.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> so just what in the hell changed, other than pasteurization, that caused the dramatic decrease in infant mortality? nothing. nothing that can account for that change except kids stopped getting raw milk.
> 
> you want to be an idiot and drink raw milk, go ahead.
> 
> just stop lying to people and saying it's safe. it's not. it's dangerous. it can kill. pretending otherwise is ignorant and flies in the face of science.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> What science? Between the CDC, FDA, AMA, and yourself if you had any proof you would have produced it by now. There are millions of Americans that KNOW the truth.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> there are millions of americans that know the truth.
> you just aren't one of them.
> 
> those of us with brains in our heads only drink safe milk.
> 
> the science is settled. raw milk carries diseases. pasteurizing the milk kills the bacteria, making the milk safer.
> 
> that's the science. do you have any science to dispute that very basic fact?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Nope, raw milk carries stuff that kills weak bodies.
> 
> So does Meat, so does everything we eat unless it is put through all types of different treatments, that is why we invented things like skimming, boiling, curing, smoking, all sorts of ways to preserve.
> 
> But here is the simple fact...
> 
> We with our cleanliness have created a society that can't eat a hunk of venison if it is starving with out getting sick...  That will work well for you all in future.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Nope, raw milk could theoretically carry bacteria that is sometimes found in diarrhea. There is no proof that that bacteria is the cause let alone where it may have come from if in fact it wasn't already in the body before the illness. Raw milk is the least friendly to unwanted bacteria and the least likely to be contaminated by it.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Oh good grief, stop shooting yourself in the foot.
> 
> I spent more time pulling the tits of jerseys in my youth then you have seen cows.
> 
> Here is how bacteria and milk work.
> 
> When milk is in the bag it is pure and it is also sterile.  ZERO bacteria count.
> 
> However when it hits the can, the bacteria from the environment around it can invade and contaminate it.
> 
> Milk with less than a 3% bacterial count is sold as a premium to whomever you are selling too.  It is also sold by butterfat content and pound.
> 
> At 5% it becomes marginal and you will get crap for a pay check.  At 5.5% you cannot sell it.
> 
> Now if you have an infected cow, then you are an idiot if you put that in the jug.... Unless you are milking 1000 head and know it will be diluted.
> 
> Many dairy farmers now take that chance.
> 
> Milk that is less than 3% bac and 12% butterfat is golden and worth a helleva lot right now...
> 
> It is used to mix with the shit most dairy's produce to make it drinkable after it is boiled down to white water so it does not kill the weak and the meek.
> 
> None of you know a damn thing about modern milk and that plastic jug it comes from.
Click to expand...

That's all well and good but it doesn't explain how raw milk would make a person sick. Why is this such an emotional subject?

I couldn't find an example of bacteria count given as a percentage. Is it 3% or is it 30,000/mL? And you have left out the beneficial bacteria that populate the teat ducts.


----------



## rawmilkmike

I.P.Freely said:


> rawmilkmike said:
> 
> 
> 
> Why do
> 
> 
> I.P.Freely said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rawmilkmike said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cav Scout said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rawmilkmike said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cav Scout said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rawmilkmike said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cav Scout said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rawmilkmike said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cav Scout said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> konradv said:
> 
> 
> 
> Here's a little something to think about for those who keep telling us the government should stay out of our business and allow free sale of raw milk.
> 
> 45 in Utah have campylobacteriosis from raw milk - CNN.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Awe.. that is too bad.  Stay the hell out of what I eat, drink and feed my kids.  Grew up on a small dairy farm, none of us died.
> 
> I eat raw pork liver as well.
> 
> Stupid idiots did not know how to take care of their milk.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> That may or may not be true but there is no reason to stipulate to the propaganda. There is no reason to believe that any of these people were sickened by their milk.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Sure they were, but it was not the milks fault, it was the way it was taken care of and environment it was in when it was handled.
> 
> Possibly it was a certain cow, if that milk was predominantly from a cold cow, well then it makes perfect sense.  Look man, I believe in drinking whole, raw milk, I drink it every day.  But don't play that it is always golden crap, you can feed someone bad milk, just like you can bad meat or anything else.
> 
> The question is, do you have the 'stomach' to deal with bad food, and most today do not.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I grew up believing the same thing and in many ways I still do but in researching raw foods I have learned to question what I now call propaganda. Yes, there is such a thing as bacteria and you don't want to inject them directly into your bloodstream but we are talking about food.
> 
> I really want to trust you but you say “Sure they were, don't play that it is always golden crap, you can feed someone bad milk, just like you can bad meat or anything else.” then you say “Possibly it was a certain cow”. That makes me so mad. Are you sure or just speculating? The state will have you running around like a chicken with it's head cut off.
> 
> I don't like curds and whey. That doesn't mean they're unhealthy for me. The same goes for raw meat and fish. Most Americans won't eat them raw let alone when they're stinking to high haven. That doesn't make them unhealthy for them. Haven't you heard the story about the arctic explorer and the Eskimos?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No, I am saying you have no clue what you are talking about.
> 
> It could have been the milk or it could have been something entirely different.  There is no actual proof in the posted links, however, if the milk caused it, it was not the fault of the milk, it was the fault of those that handled it.  Their process, or their environment that they controlled.
> 
> Look man I have pictures of me as a kid drinking milk being squirted at me from a mast cow... it will not hurt you when it is sterile.
> 
> What happens after the cow is not the milks fault.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> My only point is that when ever milk is blamed for an illness "it could have been something entirely different.  There is no actual proof" so how do we know if it is even possible for raw milk to cause illness?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Oh for gawds sake.  If you let anything... milk, meat, veggies, or pussy get contaminated, it will cause you illness.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Another bad example. Isn't that self cleaning?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Not for the verbal variety of diarrhea.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Why, does yours talk? But seriously:
> 
> “_From 1906 until 1918, Arctic explorer Vilhjalmur Stefansson (1879 - 1962) spent 11 years as an Eskimo among Eskimos. He was adopted into an Eskimo family, lived in tent, and ate fish and seal meat, often raw or fermented. He concluded that he had never been in better health in his life. He also writes about the excellent health, including dental health, and the absence of headaches experienced on exclusive animal-foods diet.”_
> 
> Vilhjalmur Stefansson Adventures in Diet - presented by Dr. Bass
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I hope he was under 5ft 6" tall as "Eskimo women" wash the hair in their own urine and love to waltz
Click to expand...

And your point is?


----------



## I.P.Freely

rawmilkmike said:


> I.P.Freely said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rawmilkmike said:
> 
> 
> 
> Why do
> 
> 
> I.P.Freely said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rawmilkmike said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cav Scout said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rawmilkmike said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cav Scout said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rawmilkmike said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cav Scout said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rawmilkmike said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cav Scout said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> konradv said:
> 
> 
> 
> Here's a little something to think about for those who keep telling us the government should stay out of our business and allow free sale of raw milk.
> 
> 45 in Utah have campylobacteriosis from raw milk - CNN.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Awe.. that is too bad.  Stay the hell out of what I eat, drink and feed my kids.  Grew up on a small dairy farm, none of us died.
> 
> I eat raw pork liver as well.
> 
> Stupid idiots did not know how to take care of their milk.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> That may or may not be true but there is no reason to stipulate to the propaganda. There is no reason to believe that any of these people were sickened by their milk.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Sure they were, but it was not the milks fault, it was the way it was taken care of and environment it was in when it was handled.
> 
> Possibly it was a certain cow, if that milk was predominantly from a cold cow, well then it makes perfect sense.  Look man, I believe in drinking whole, raw milk, I drink it every day.  But don't play that it is always golden crap, you can feed someone bad milk, just like you can bad meat or anything else.
> 
> The question is, do you have the 'stomach' to deal with bad food, and most today do not.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I grew up believing the same thing and in many ways I still do but in researching raw foods I have learned to question what I now call propaganda. Yes, there is such a thing as bacteria and you don't want to inject them directly into your bloodstream but we are talking about food.
> 
> I really want to trust you but you say “Sure they were, don't play that it is always golden crap, you can feed someone bad milk, just like you can bad meat or anything else.” then you say “Possibly it was a certain cow”. That makes me so mad. Are you sure or just speculating? The state will have you running around like a chicken with it's head cut off.
> 
> I don't like curds and whey. That doesn't mean they're unhealthy for me. The same goes for raw meat and fish. Most Americans won't eat them raw let alone when they're stinking to high haven. That doesn't make them unhealthy for them. Haven't you heard the story about the arctic explorer and the Eskimos?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No, I am saying you have no clue what you are talking about.
> 
> It could have been the milk or it could have been something entirely different.  There is no actual proof in the posted links, however, if the milk caused it, it was not the fault of the milk, it was the fault of those that handled it.  Their process, or their environment that they controlled.
> 
> Look man I have pictures of me as a kid drinking milk being squirted at me from a mast cow... it will not hurt you when it is sterile.
> 
> What happens after the cow is not the milks fault.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> My only point is that when ever milk is blamed for an illness "it could have been something entirely different.  There is no actual proof" so how do we know if it is even possible for raw milk to cause illness?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Oh for gawds sake.  If you let anything... milk, meat, veggies, or pussy get contaminated, it will cause you illness.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Another bad example. Isn't that self cleaning?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Not for the verbal variety of diarrhea.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Why, does yours talk? But seriously:
> 
> “_From 1906 until 1918, Arctic explorer Vilhjalmur Stefansson (1879 - 1962) spent 11 years as an Eskimo among Eskimos. He was adopted into an Eskimo family, lived in tent, and ate fish and seal meat, often raw or fermented. He concluded that he had never been in better health in his life. He also writes about the excellent health, including dental health, and the absence of headaches experienced on exclusive animal-foods diet.”_
> 
> Vilhjalmur Stefansson Adventures in Diet - presented by Dr. Bass
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I hope he was under 5ft 6" tall as "Eskimo women" wash the hair in their own urine and love to waltz
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> And your point is?
Click to expand...

Maybe it is responsible for the Inuits dying historically 10 years younger than Canadians and suffering 10% more cancers.
The Monks of Athos are said to be one of the healthiest groups in the World, researchers claim it is their diet.The head monk claims it is because the have no contact with women or bank managers.


----------



## rawmilkmike

I.P.Freely said:


> rawmilkmike said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I.P.Freely said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rawmilkmike said:
> 
> 
> 
> Why do
> 
> 
> I.P.Freely said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rawmilkmike said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cav Scout said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rawmilkmike said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cav Scout said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rawmilkmike said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cav Scout said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rawmilkmike said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cav Scout said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> konradv said:
> 
> 
> 
> Here's a little something to think about for those who keep telling us the government should stay out of our business and allow free sale of raw milk.
> 
> 45 in Utah have campylobacteriosis from raw milk - CNN.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Awe.. that is too bad.  Stay the hell out of what I eat, drink and feed my kids.  Grew up on a small dairy farm, none of us died.
> 
> I eat raw pork liver as well.
> 
> Stupid idiots did not know how to take care of their milk.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> That may or may not be true but there is no reason to stipulate to the propaganda. There is no reason to believe that any of these people were sickened by their milk.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Sure they were, but it was not the milks fault, it was the way it was taken care of and environment it was in when it was handled.
> 
> Possibly it was a certain cow, if that milk was predominantly from a cold cow, well then it makes perfect sense.  Look man, I believe in drinking whole, raw milk, I drink it every day.  But don't play that it is always golden crap, you can feed someone bad milk, just like you can bad meat or anything else.
> 
> The question is, do you have the 'stomach' to deal with bad food, and most today do not.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I grew up believing the same thing and in many ways I still do but in researching raw foods I have learned to question what I now call propaganda. Yes, there is such a thing as bacteria and you don't want to inject them directly into your bloodstream but we are talking about food.
> 
> I really want to trust you but you say “Sure they were, don't play that it is always golden crap, you can feed someone bad milk, just like you can bad meat or anything else.” then you say “Possibly it was a certain cow”. That makes me so mad. Are you sure or just speculating? The state will have you running around like a chicken with it's head cut off.
> 
> I don't like curds and whey. That doesn't mean they're unhealthy for me. The same goes for raw meat and fish. Most Americans won't eat them raw let alone when they're stinking to high haven. That doesn't make them unhealthy for them. Haven't you heard the story about the arctic explorer and the Eskimos?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No, I am saying you have no clue what you are talking about.
> 
> It could have been the milk or it could have been something entirely different.  There is no actual proof in the posted links, however, if the milk caused it, it was not the fault of the milk, it was the fault of those that handled it.  Their process, or their environment that they controlled.
> 
> Look man I have pictures of me as a kid drinking milk being squirted at me from a mast cow... it will not hurt you when it is sterile.
> 
> What happens after the cow is not the milks fault.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> My only point is that when ever milk is blamed for an illness "it could have been something entirely different.  There is no actual proof" so how do we know if it is even possible for raw milk to cause illness?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Oh for gawds sake.  If you let anything... milk, meat, veggies, or pussy get contaminated, it will cause you illness.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Another bad example. Isn't that self cleaning?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Not for the verbal variety of diarrhea.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Why, does yours talk? But seriously:
> 
> “_From 1906 until 1918, Arctic explorer Vilhjalmur Stefansson (1879 - 1962) spent 11 years as an Eskimo among Eskimos. He was adopted into an Eskimo family, lived in tent, and ate fish and seal meat, often raw or fermented. He concluded that he had never been in better health in his life. He also writes about the excellent health, including dental health, and the absence of headaches experienced on exclusive animal-foods diet.”_
> 
> Vilhjalmur Stefansson Adventures in Diet - presented by Dr. Bass
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I hope he was under 5ft 6" tall as "Eskimo women" wash the hair in their own urine and love to waltz
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> And your point is?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Maybe it is responsible for the Inuits dying historically 10 years younger than Canadians and suffering 10% more cancers.
> The Monks of Athos are said to be one of the healthiest groups in the World, researchers claim it is their diet.The head monk claims it is because the have no contact with women or bank managers.
Click to expand...

"When word reached American and European physicians that the Inuit did not develop cancer, a number of them decided to mount an active search for it. This search began in the 1850s and tapered off in the 1920s, as traditionally-living Inuit became difficult to find." 

"One of these physicians was captain George B. Leavitt. He actively searched for cancer among the traditionally-living Inuit from 1885 to 1907. Along with his staff, he claims to have performed tens of thousands of examinations. He did not find a single case of cancer. At the same time, he was regularly diagnosing cancers among the crews of whaling ships and other Westernized populations." 
Whole Health Source Cancer Among the Inuit


----------



## gallantwarrior

Flopper said:


> Cav Scout said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> konradv said:
> 
> 
> 
> Here's a little something to think about for those who keep telling us the government should stay out of our business and allow free sale of raw milk.
> 
> 45 in Utah have campylobacteriosis from raw milk - CNN.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Awe.. that is too bad.  Stay the hell out of what I eat, drink and feed my kids.  Grew up on a small dairy farm, none of us died.
> 
> I eat raw pork liver as well.
> 
> Stupid idiots did not know how to take care of their milk.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> There's big difference in small diary farms  of yesterday with local distribution.  Today, diary farms are huge, some with as many 30,000 cows with little attention paid to their health compared to the small farms of yesterday.  The milk on the table today may have traveled hundreds of miles before if finally reaches the dinner table weeks after it comes from the cow.  Only on a fool would suggest we not pasteurized milk today.
Click to expand...


I would never advocate buying raw milk from big-agri concerns like the ones you describe.  The way they treat their animals and the product is atrocious.  That's one of the reasons pasteurization became a requirement.  But buying raw milk from a small holder, especially knowing that the family that cares for the animals and handles the milk consumes it raw, too...that's an entirely different matter.  I prefer buying as much of my food fresh and raw from farmers who grow it, and feed it to their own families.


----------



## gallantwarrior

rawmilkmike said:


> Cav Scout said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> konradv said:
> 
> 
> 
> Here's a little something to think about for those who keep telling us the government should stay out of our business and allow free sale of raw milk.
> 
> 45 in Utah have campylobacteriosis from raw milk - CNN.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Awe.. that is too bad.  Stay the hell out of what I eat, drink and feed my kids.  Grew up on a small dairy farm, none of us died.
> 
> I eat raw pork liver as well.
> 
> Stupid idiots did not know how to take care of their milk.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> That may or may not be true but there is no reason to stipulate to the propaganda. There is no reason to believe that any of these people were sickened by their milk.
Click to expand...


As soon as someone admits to consuming raw milk, the investigation is done.  I wonder whether any of those who became ill had consumed eggs, chicken, ground turkey...you know, culprits far more often responsible for campylobacter infections.


----------



## rawmilkmike

gallantwarrior said:


> Flopper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cav Scout said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> konradv said:
> 
> 
> 
> Here's a little something to think about for those who keep telling us the government should stay out of our business and allow free sale of raw milk.
> 
> 45 in Utah have campylobacteriosis from raw milk - CNN.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Awe.. that is too bad.  Stay the hell out of what I eat, drink and feed my kids.  Grew up on a small dairy farm, none of us died.
> 
> I eat raw pork liver as well.
> 
> Stupid idiots did not know how to take care of their milk.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> There's big difference in small diary farms  of yesterday with local distribution.  Today, diary farms are huge, some with as many 30,000 cows with little attention paid to their health compared to the small farms of yesterday.  The milk on the table today may have traveled hundreds of miles before if finally reaches the dinner table weeks after it comes from the cow.  Only on a fool would suggest we not pasteurized milk today.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I would never advocate buying raw milk from big-agri concerns like the ones you describe.  The way they treat their animals and the product is atrocious.  That's one of the reasons pasteurization became a requirement.  But buying raw milk from a small holder, especially knowing that the family that cares for the animals and handles the milk consumes it raw, too...that's an entirely different matter.  I prefer buying as much of my food fresh and raw from farmers who grow it, and feed it to their own families.
Click to expand...

That is all true except that pasteurization was designed to inactivate the enzymes that oxidize milk fat after homogenization without significantly changing the flavor of the milk. It is not designed to kill so call pathogens and it can not make poor quality Holstein milk into organic Jersey milk. There is no evidence that "big-agri" raw milk is any more likely to be associated with food-borne illness. Many "big-agri" farmers drink their own milk raw.


----------



## Darlene

koshergrl said:


> rawmilkmike said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> koshergrl said:
> 
> 
> 
> Don't drink raw milk from a dairy that hires illegals.
> 
> My mom taught me that.
> 
> PS..we never got sick from raw milk.
> 
> 
> 
> Has anyone?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Gotten sick from raw milk?
> 
> Have you read the OP?
Click to expand...

The OP states doesn't necessarily say raw milk makes people sick. It says that the bacteria from dirt and feces on the cow's udders made people sick. Do research instead of believing everything the FDA says.


----------



## rawmilkmike

gallantwarrior said:


> rawmilkmike said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cav Scout said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> konradv said:
> 
> 
> 
> Here's a little something to think about for those who keep telling us the government should stay out of our business and allow free sale of raw milk.
> 
> 45 in Utah have campylobacteriosis from raw milk - CNN.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Awe.. that is too bad.  Stay the hell out of what I eat, drink and feed my kids.  Grew up on a small dairy farm, none of us died.
> 
> I eat raw pork liver as well.
> 
> Stupid idiots did not know how to take care of their milk.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> That may or may not be true but there is no reason to stipulate to the propaganda. There is no reason to believe that any of these people were sickened by their milk.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> As soon as someone admits to consuming raw milk, the investigation is done.  I wonder whether any of those who became ill had consumed eggs, chicken, ground turkey...you know, culprits far more often responsible for campylobacter infections.
Click to expand...

“Campylobacter species are widely distributed in most warm-blooded animals. It is among the most common bacterial infections of humans. Campylobacter can be found in contaminated food or water. Direct contact with infected animals, including pets, is also a well-documented means of disease-transmission. Other common routes of transmission for the bacteria are fecal-oral, person-to-person, and sexual contact. Prevalence of infection in otherwise healthy people is quite low.”


----------



## rawmilkmike

Darlene said:


> koshergrl said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rawmilkmike said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> koshergrl said:
> 
> 
> 
> Don't drink raw milk from a dairy that hires illegals.
> 
> My mom taught me that.
> 
> PS..we never got sick from raw milk.
> 
> 
> 
> Has anyone?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Gotten sick from raw milk?
> 
> Have you read the OP?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The OP states doesn't necessarily say raw milk makes people sick. It says that the bacteria from dirt and feces on the cow's udders made people sick. Do research instead of believing everything the FDA says.
Click to expand...

And that is obviously just speculation.


----------



## Darlene

rawmilkmike said:


> Darlene said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> koshergrl said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rawmilkmike said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> koshergrl said:
> 
> 
> 
> Don't drink raw milk from a dairy that hires illegals.
> 
> My mom taught me that.
> 
> PS..we never got sick from raw milk.
> 
> 
> 
> Has anyone?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Gotten sick from raw milk?
> 
> Have you read the OP?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The OP states doesn't necessarily say raw milk makes people sick. It says that the bacteria from dirt and feces on the cow's udders made people sick. Do research instead of believing everything the FDA says.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> And that is obviously just speculation.
Click to expand...

I was figuring you were pro-raw milk by your name.
If it's just speculation about the cleanliness affecting the quality of milk (it's far more than speculation, hun), then the same thing can be said about raw milk causing sicknesses.
I think people forget that pasteurized milk also causes sicknesses.


----------



## ChrisL

They should put a label on it letting people know of the risks, and let people decide if they want to risk getting sick or not.  I don't see how the government can FORCE you to eat safely.  People should be able to consume what they want.  As far as the sellers of this milk, they should have to pass basic cleanliness regulations (you know, like rats, bugs, etc.) but still be allowed to sell their product, IMO.


----------



## rawmilkmike

Darlene said:


> rawmilkmike said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Darlene said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> koshergrl said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rawmilkmike said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> koshergrl said:
> 
> 
> 
> Don't drink raw milk from a dairy that hires illegals.
> 
> My mom taught me that.
> 
> PS..we never got sick from raw milk.
> 
> 
> 
> Has anyone?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Gotten sick from raw milk?
> 
> Have you read the OP?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The OP states doesn't necessarily say raw milk makes people sick. It says that the bacteria from dirt and feces on the cow's udders made people sick. Do research instead of believing everything the FDA says.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> And that is obviously just speculation.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I was figuring you were pro-raw milk by your name.
> If it's just speculation about the cleanliness affecting the quality of milk (it's far more than speculation, hun), then the same thing can be said about raw milk causing sicknesses.
> I think people forget that pasteurized milk also causes sicknesses.
Click to expand...

I will admit I prefer not to drink sour milk. So careful handling is important to me. It just isn't the most important quality to me. The state is more concerned with the construction of the milk house than they are with the milk. For instance, I pay extra for Jersey when I can get it.

The state said that it may have been a dirty utter that caused the positive test. That is speculation. And the same thing can be said about raw milk causing sicknesses. Raw milk is blamed simply because it's raw milk. The accusation is completely arbitrary.


----------



## rawmilkmike

ChrisL said:


> They should put a label on it letting people know of the risks, and let people decide if they want to risk getting sick or not.  I don't see how the government can FORCE you to eat safely.  People should be able to consume what they want.  As far as the sellers of this milk, they should have to pass basic cleanliness regulations (you know, like rats, bugs, etc.) but still be allowed to sell their product, IMO.


They should have to pass basic cleanliness regulations if that is what the consumer wants. If their basic cleanliness regulations are going to double and quadruple the price they can keep them.


----------



## ChrisL

rawmilkmike said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> They should put a label on it letting people know of the risks, and let people decide if they want to risk getting sick or not.  I don't see how the government can FORCE you to eat safely.  People should be able to consume what they want.  As far as the sellers of this milk, they should have to pass basic cleanliness regulations (you know, like rats, bugs, etc.) but still be allowed to sell their product, IMO.
> 
> 
> 
> They should have to pass basic cleanliness regulations if that is what the consumer wants. If their basic cleanliness regulations are going to double and quadruple the price they can keep them.
Click to expand...


Thing is, a lot of people will take advantage of lax regulations when it comes to cleanliness.  I'm not worried about raw milk, but of course the production facilities need to be clean. Otherwise, there could fecal matter and other such disgusting things in the milk.  Also, it could be expired or any number of things.


----------



## rawmilkmike

ChrisL said:


> rawmilkmike said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> They should put a label on it letting people know of the risks, and let people decide if they want to risk getting sick or not.  I don't see how the government can FORCE you to eat safely.  People should be able to consume what they want.  As far as the sellers of this milk, they should have to pass basic cleanliness regulations (you know, like rats, bugs, etc.) but still be allowed to sell their product, IMO.
> 
> 
> 
> They should have to pass basic cleanliness regulations if that is what the consumer wants. If their basic cleanliness regulations are going to double and quadruple the price they can keep them.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Thing is, a lot of people will take advantage of lax regulations when it comes to cleanliness.  I'm not worried about raw milk, but of course the production facilities need to be clean. Otherwise, there could fecal matter and other such disgusting things in the milk.  Also, it could be expired or any number of things.
Click to expand...

Direct farm sales and a little friendly competition would insure that. The state admits it doesn't want us to drink raw milk period. Any regulation will be utilized to that end. Just look at California.


----------



## ChrisL

rawmilkmike said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rawmilkmike said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> They should put a label on it letting people know of the risks, and let people decide if they want to risk getting sick or not.  I don't see how the government can FORCE you to eat safely.  People should be able to consume what they want.  As far as the sellers of this milk, they should have to pass basic cleanliness regulations (you know, like rats, bugs, etc.) but still be allowed to sell their product, IMO.
> 
> 
> 
> They should have to pass basic cleanliness regulations if that is what the consumer wants. If their basic cleanliness regulations are going to double and quadruple the price they can keep them.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Thing is, a lot of people will take advantage of lax regulations when it comes to cleanliness.  I'm not worried about raw milk, but of course the production facilities need to be clean. Otherwise, there could fecal matter and other such disgusting things in the milk.  Also, it could be expired or any number of things.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Direct farm sales and a little friendly competition would insure that. The state admits it doesn't want us to drink raw milk period. Any regulation will be utilized to that end. Just look at California.
Click to expand...


I don't know though, people get greedy and sometimes careless.  That's what happens sometimes.  Like I said though, that's my only problem with it.  Personally, I've never even tried raw milk, but if that's what some people prefer, I don't think the government should be able to prevent people from consuming it at their own risk.  If there weren't any kind of sanitary regulations, that should be on a label just so people are aware of the risks.


----------



## Flopper

Between 1993 and 2006 more than 1500 people in the United States became sick from drinking raw milk or eating cheese made from raw milk. In addition, CDC reported that unpasteurized milk is 150 times more likely to cause food borne illness and results in 13 times more hospitalizations than illnesses involving pasteurized dairy products.

Whether raw milk is safe to drink depends on the health of the cows, the handling of the milk; the cleaning and sterilization of equipment, and storage time and temperature.  Pasteurized which removes over 99% of the bacteria significantly reduces the chance of becoming sick from contaminated milk. 

Federal laws prevent the interstate sale of raw milk but many states allow sales within the state. The push, if you want to call it that to allow raw milk sales across the country comes from small dairy farms struggling to survive, health food addicts that believe in the magic properties of raw milk, and right wing nuts who want to abolish all food safety laws.


----------



## ChrisL

Flopper said:


> Between 1993 and 2006 more than 1500 people in the United States became sick from drinking raw milk or eating cheese made from raw milk. In addition, CDC reported that unpasteurized milk is 150 times more likely to cause food borne illness and results in 13 times more hospitalizations than illnesses involving pasteurized dairy products.
> 
> Whether raw milk is safe to drink depends on the health of the cows, the handling of the milk; the cleaning and sterilization of equipment, and storage time and temperature.  Pasteurized which removes over 99% of the bacteria significantly reduces the chance of becoming sick from contaminated milk.
> 
> Federal laws prevent the interstate sale of raw milk but many states allow sales within the state. The push, if you want to call it that to allow raw milk sales across the country comes from small dairy farms struggling to survive, health food addicts that believe in the magic properties of raw milk, and right wing nuts who want to abolish all food safety laws.



Well, if people want to risk it, I don't think the government should have to stop them.  Who cares?  Let people drink contaminated poop milk.  They aren't hurting anyone else.  As long as the consumer is aware, I don't see a problem with it.


----------



## boedicca

If raw milk were that dangerous, people would not have commonly consumed it.


----------



## gallantwarrior

rawmilkmike said:


> gallantwarrior said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Flopper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cav Scout said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> konradv said:
> 
> 
> 
> Here's a little something to think about for those who keep telling us the government should stay out of our business and allow free sale of raw milk.
> 
> 45 in Utah have campylobacteriosis from raw milk - CNN.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Awe.. that is too bad.  Stay the hell out of what I eat, drink and feed my kids.  Grew up on a small dairy farm, none of us died.
> 
> I eat raw pork liver as well.
> 
> Stupid idiots did not know how to take care of their milk.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> There's big difference in small diary farms  of yesterday with local distribution.  Today, diary farms are huge, some with as many 30,000 cows with little attention paid to their health compared to the small farms of yesterday.  The milk on the table today may have traveled hundreds of miles before if finally reaches the dinner table weeks after it comes from the cow.  Only on a fool would suggest we not pasteurized milk today.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I would never advocate buying raw milk from big-agri concerns like the ones you describe.  The way they treat their animals and the product is atrocious.  That's one of the reasons pasteurization became a requirement.  But buying raw milk from a small holder, especially knowing that the family that cares for the animals and handles the milk consumes it raw, too...that's an entirely different matter.  I prefer buying as much of my food fresh and raw from farmers who grow it, and feed it to their own families.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> That is all true except that pasteurization was designed to inactivate the enzymes that oxidize milk fat after homogenization without significantly changing the flavor of the milk. It is not designed to kill so call pathogens and it can not make poor quality Holstein milk into organic Jersey milk. There is no evidence that "big-agri" raw milk is any more likely to be associated with food-borne illness. Many "big-agri" farmers drink their own milk raw.
Click to expand...


I agree with your general assessment about what pasteurization accomplishes in milk.  Unfortunately, the general public has been sold a bill of goods that only pasteurized milk is safe to consume, raw milk is to be condemned and those who sell it should be jailed, those who consume it deserve what they get.
I beg to differ on the point that big-agribusinesses produce good, wholesome milk of the same quality that small holders do.  And since most big-agri "farmers' operate in absentia, I would wager that the only way they consume milk produced on those types of farms is if it is offered for sale at the super market nearby.


----------



## OnePercenter

No shit!


----------



## Alex.

*The Dangers of Unpasteurized Milk *


----------



## rawmilkmike

ChrisL said:


> They should put a label on it letting people know of the risks, and let people decide if they want to risk getting sick or not.  I don't see how the government can FORCE you to eat safely.  People should be able to consume what they want.  As far as the sellers of this milk, they should have to pass basic cleanliness regulations (you know, like rats, bugs, etc.) but still be allowed to sell their product, IMO.


Our government is controlled by the industries it is supposed to regulate so it has a conflict of interest when it comes to our safety.


----------



## rawmilkmike

OnePercenter said:


> No shit!


No shit. Pun intended.


----------



## rawmilkmike

Alex. said:


> *The Dangers of Unpasteurized Milk *


USFoodandDrugAdmin, is one of raw milk's competitors. They have a conflict of interest when it comes to raw milk and our health.


----------



## rawmilkmike

Alex. said:


> *The Dangers of Unpasteurized Milk *


Pasteurization does not insure that these bacteria are not in the milk. There are no studies. What is said is that: pasteurization does not significantly change the nutritional value printed on the label and that they have done no resent studies that prove that pasteurization causes milk protein intolerance and that they don't recognize the studies that show pasteurization causes asthma. You don't need a study to prove that. Hyperbole, association is not proof of cause. What they know is that people that drink raw milk sometime get diarrhea just like the rest of us. The CDC's Minnesota study shows that the average American is 9 times more likely to contract a so called foodborne illness than people who drink raw milk. The named bacteria are some times found in diarrhea. That doesn't mean that they are the cause or that they are responsible for complications arising from medical treatments which have many deadly side effects. The named bacteria are seldom found in raw milk sold for human consumption and have never been proven to cause illness when they are. The CDC has never documented a single death associated with raw fluid milk consumption. Raw milk is healthy and is especially important for children, the elderly, pregnant women, and people with weakened immune systems. The illnesses they are referring to are associated with diarrhea for which their own study shows raw milk is preventative. Healthy people have never been showed to get sick from any of the named bacteria. If you look them up you will find the opposite is said. These bacteria are everywhere. They are in us, on us, and on almost everything we touch and or eat. Comments are disabled for this video. I wonder why.


----------



## rawmilkmike

gallantwarrior said:


> rawmilkmike said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> gallantwarrior said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Flopper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cav Scout said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> konradv said:
> 
> 
> 
> Here's a little something to think about for those who keep telling us the government should stay out of our business and allow free sale of raw milk.
> 
> 45 in Utah have campylobacteriosis from raw milk - CNN.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Awe.. that is too bad.  Stay the hell out of what I eat, drink and feed my kids.  Grew up on a small dairy farm, none of us died.
> 
> I eat raw pork liver as well.
> 
> Stupid idiots did not know how to take care of their milk.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> There's big difference in small diary farms  of yesterday with local distribution.  Today, diary farms are huge, some with as many 30,000 cows with little attention paid to their health compared to the small farms of yesterday.  The milk on the table today may have traveled hundreds of miles before if finally reaches the dinner table weeks after it comes from the cow.  Only on a fool would suggest we not pasteurized milk today.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I would never advocate buying raw milk from big-agri concerns like the ones you describe.  The way they treat their animals and the product is atrocious.  That's one of the reasons pasteurization became a requirement.  But buying raw milk from a small holder, especially knowing that the family that cares for the animals and handles the milk consumes it raw, too...that's an entirely different matter.  I prefer buying as much of my food fresh and raw from farmers who grow it, and feed it to their own families.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> That is all true except that pasteurization was designed to inactivate the enzymes that oxidize milk fat after homogenization without significantly changing the flavor of the milk. It is not designed to kill so call pathogens and it can not make poor quality Holstein milk into organic Jersey milk. There is no evidence that "big-agri" raw milk is any more likely to be associated with food-borne illness. Many "big-agri" farmers drink their own milk raw.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I agree with your general assessment about what pasteurization accomplishes in milk.  Unfortunately, the general public has been sold a bill of goods that only pasteurized milk is safe to consume, raw milk is to be condemned and those who sell it should be jailed, those who consume it deserve what they get.
> I beg to differ on the point that big-agribusinesses produce good, wholesome milk of the same quality that small holders do.  And since most big-agri "farmers' operate in absentia, I would wager that the only way they consume milk produced on those types of farms is if it is offered for sale at the super market nearby.
Click to expand...

Who said "that big-agribusinesses produce good, wholesome milk of the same quality that small holders do." All I was saying is that most raw milk is still a super-food regardless where it comes from and that pasteurization does not improve it or make it safer. Of course some raw milks are better than others.


----------



## rawmilkmike

ChrisL said:


> rawmilkmike said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rawmilkmike said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> They should put a label on it letting people know of the risks, and let people decide if they want to risk getting sick or not.  I don't see how the government can FORCE you to eat safely.  People should be able to consume what they want.  As far as the sellers of this milk, they should have to pass basic cleanliness regulations (you know, like rats, bugs, etc.) but still be allowed to sell their product, IMO.
> 
> 
> 
> They should have to pass basic cleanliness regulations if that is what the consumer wants. If their basic cleanliness regulations are going to double and quadruple the price they can keep them.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Thing is, a lot of people will take advantage of lax regulations when it comes to cleanliness.  I'm not worried about raw milk, but of course the production facilities need to be clean. Otherwise, there could fecal matter and other such disgusting things in the milk.  Also, it could be expired or any number of things.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Direct farm sales and a little friendly competition would insure that. The state admits it doesn't want us to drink raw milk period. Any regulation will be utilized to that end. Just look at California.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I don't know though, people get greedy and sometimes careless.  That's what happens sometimes.  Like I said though, that's my only problem with it.  Personally, I've never even tried raw milk, but if that's what some people prefer, I don't think the government should be able to prevent people from consuming it at their own risk.  If there weren't any kind of sanitary regulations, that should be on a label just so people are aware of the risks.
Click to expand...

If you ever tried to find a source of raw milk, washed 30 half gallon jars, drove out to the farm, went into the barn to fill them for your family and drank raw milk for a few months, you would first find how regulation has made it difficult to find and obtain raw milk and maybe even how much it adds to the cost without improving it's quality in the least. It's health benefits you will start to see almost immediately and it's safety is proven after just three months. If you are scared, look up the so called deadly pathogens and see what they say. Small producers aren't the only ones who can get greedy and sometimes careless. The same can happen with large producers and the regulators that work for them. Why do you think it is so hard to find healthy foods in our nations restaurants and supermarkets? Who can you trust to tell you a food's risk to your health?


----------



## rawmilkmike

ChrisL said:


> Flopper said:
> 
> 
> 
> Between 1993 and 2006 more than 1500 people in the United States became sick from drinking raw milk or eating cheese made from raw milk. In addition, CDC reported that unpasteurized milk is 150 times more likely to cause food borne illness and results in 13 times more hospitalizations than illnesses involving pasteurized dairy products.
> 
> Whether raw milk is safe to drink depends on the health of the cows, the handling of the milk; the cleaning and sterilization of equipment, and storage time and temperature.  Pasteurized which removes over 99% of the bacteria significantly reduces the chance of becoming sick from contaminated milk.
> 
> Federal laws prevent the interstate sale of raw milk but many states allow sales within the state. The push, if you want to call it that to allow raw milk sales across the country comes from small dairy farms struggling to survive, health food addicts that believe in the magic properties of raw milk, and right wing nuts who want to abolish all food safety laws.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well, if people want to risk it, I don't think the government should have to stop them.  Who cares?  Let people drink contaminated poop milk.  They aren't hurting anyone else.  As long as the consumer is aware, I don't see a problem with it.
Click to expand...

The only ones saying it is "contaminated poop milk" are it's competitors.


----------



## rawmilkmike

Flopper said:


> Between 1993 and 2006 more than 1500 people in the United States became sick from drinking raw milk or eating cheese made from raw milk. In addition, CDC reported that unpasteurized milk is 150 times more likely to cause food borne illness and results in 13 times more hospitalizations than illnesses involving pasteurized dairy products.
> 
> Whether raw milk is safe to drink depends on the health of the cows, the handling of the milk; the cleaning and sterilization of equipment, and storage time and temperature.  Pasteurized which removes over 99% of the bacteria significantly reduces the chance of becoming sick from contaminated milk.
> 
> Federal laws prevent the interstate sale of raw milk but many states allow sales within the state. The push, if you want to call it that to allow raw milk sales across the country comes from small dairy farms struggling to survive, health food addicts that believe in the magic properties of raw milk, and right wing nuts who want to abolish all food safety laws.


Pasteurized milk is also made from raw milk and is also sometimes included in raw milk stats.
-----
The study was called “Nonpasteurized Dairy Products, Disease Outbreaks, and State Laws, 1993–2006” It says in the abstract: “Nonpasteurized products caused a disproportionate number (≈150× greater/unit of product consumed) of outbreaks” Nowhere in the results do you find 150x or “greater/unit of product consumed”
-----
It says “1% of U.S. residents consume raw milk” which is from the 2002-2003 FoodNet Population Survey. It's 3% in the 2006-2007survey. It refers to outbreaks not cases. Raw milk outbreaks average 20 cases per outbreak. Pasteurized milk averages 1,645 cases per outbreak.
-----
Why just 1993–2006? In 1985, there were over 16,000 confirmed cases of Salmonella infection that were traced back to pasteurized milk from a single dairy. From 1993–2006 there were only 2,098 all together.
-----
In 2007 the number of raw milk consumers tripled. They all ready knew this for 4 yrs. This study only involved “outbreaks in which investigators reported whether the product was pasteurized or raw.” In most outbreaks involving pasteurized dairy, investigators do NOT report that the milk is pasteurized; they just say “milk” or “cheese.”
-----
It compared “raw milk AND raw milk products” to just “pasteurized milk” and not pasteurized milk products. When a person goes to the hospital with a food-borne illness, the first question asked is “Did you drink raw milk?” If the person answers yes, he or she is immediately admitted and no further questions are asked. Most of these people are out in just a day or two despite the horrific safe record hospitals have.
-----
The association is completely arbitrary. We don't know if the cause is even bacterial, which bacteria if it is, or where it came from. All these bacteria can be pasted by human contact. Some are even airborne or in soil and most if not all are already in our bodies. When they aren't in our body that could be called an imbalance. Look up Fecal microbiota transplantation (FMT) stool poop. So we go from 150x to 50x to 5x to 1.35x to 0.7x before we even consider that fact that most pasteurized milk outbreak-associations are unreported and raw milk outbreak-associations are over reported.


----------



## gallantwarrior

interesting that treated milk and its possible implication in food borne outbreaks has not been studied or documented.


----------



## rawmilkmike

Flopper said:


> Between 1993 and 2006 more than 1500 people in the United States became sick from drinking raw milk or eating cheese made from raw milk. In addition, CDC reported that unpasteurized milk is 150 times more likely to cause food borne illness and results in 13 times more hospitalizations than illnesses involving pasteurized dairy products.
> 
> Whether raw milk is safe to drink depends on the health of the cows, the handling of the milk; the cleaning and sterilization of equipment, and storage time and temperature.  Pasteurized which removes over 99% of the bacteria significantly reduces the chance of becoming sick from contaminated milk.
> 
> Federal laws prevent the interstate sale of raw milk but many states allow sales within the state. The push, if you want to call it that to allow raw milk sales across the country comes from small dairy farms struggling to survive, health food addicts that believe in the magic properties of raw milk, and right wing nuts who want to abolish all food safety laws.


The push, for raw milk is consumer driven and is bipartisan.

Yes, consumers that live near state borders do cross to buy raw milk but Mark McAfee, California’s largest raw milk producer is the only one challenging the ban on interstate commerce.

Yes, small dairy farms are struggling to survive.

Healthy food is not addictive. That is the problem. Most health-food nuts actually avoid dairy products.

There is nothing magical about healthy food. It's just common sense.

Food safety regulators are actually breaking the law. We are only asking for fair administration of the regulations and the law. These new raw milk bills are just additional regulation designed to make raw milk more difficult to obtain.


----------



## rawmilkmike

gallantwarrior said:


> interesting that treated milk and its possible implication in food borne outbreaks has not been studied or documented.


I assume you are referring to how the CDC, FDA, and AAP always claim there is no evidence when in fact they are the ones with the burden of proof.


----------



## Alex.

rawmilkmike said:


> Alex. said:
> 
> 
> 
> *The Dangers of Unpasteurized Milk *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pasteurization does not insure that these bacteria are not in the milk. There are no studies. What is said is that: pasteurization does not significantly change the nutritional value printed on the label and that they have done no resent studies that prove that pasteurization causes milk protein intolerance and that they don't recognize the studies that show pasteurization causes asthma. You don't need a study to prove that. Hyperbole, association is not proof of cause. What they know is that people that drink raw milk sometime get diarrhea just like the rest of us. The CDC's Minnesota study shows that the average American is 9 times more likely to contract a so called foodborne illness than people who drink raw milk. The named bacteria are some times found in diarrhea. That doesn't mean that they are the cause or that they are responsible for complications arising from medical treatments which have many deadly side effects. The named bacteria are seldom found in raw milk sold for human consumption and have never been proven to cause illness when they are. The CDC has never documented a single death associated with raw fluid milk consumption. Raw milk is healthy and is especially important for children, the elderly, pregnant women, and people with weakened immune systems. The illnesses they are referring to are associated with diarrhea for which their own study shows raw milk is preventative. Healthy people have never been showed to get sick from any of the named bacteria. If you look them up you will find the opposite is said. These bacteria are everywhere. They are in us, on us, and on almost everything we touch and or eat. Comments are disabled for this video. I wonder why.
Click to expand...


I never said insure.


----------



## ChrisL

rawmilkmike said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Flopper said:
> 
> 
> 
> Between 1993 and 2006 more than 1500 people in the United States became sick from drinking raw milk or eating cheese made from raw milk. In addition, CDC reported that unpasteurized milk is 150 times more likely to cause food borne illness and results in 13 times more hospitalizations than illnesses involving pasteurized dairy products.
> 
> Whether raw milk is safe to drink depends on the health of the cows, the handling of the milk; the cleaning and sterilization of equipment, and storage time and temperature.  Pasteurized which removes over 99% of the bacteria significantly reduces the chance of becoming sick from contaminated milk.
> 
> Federal laws prevent the interstate sale of raw milk but many states allow sales within the state. The push, if you want to call it that to allow raw milk sales across the country comes from small dairy farms struggling to survive, health food addicts that believe in the magic properties of raw milk, and right wing nuts who want to abolish all food safety laws.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well, if people want to risk it, I don't think the government should have to stop them.  Who cares?  Let people drink contaminated poop milk.  They aren't hurting anyone else.  As long as the consumer is aware, I don't see a problem with it.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The only ones saying it is "contaminated poop milk" are it's competitors.
Click to expand...


Well if it's not regulated, you never know!


----------



## rawmilkmike

ChrisL said:


> rawmilkmike said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Flopper said:
> 
> 
> 
> Between 1993 and 2006 more than 1500 people in the United States became sick from drinking raw milk or eating cheese made from raw milk. In addition, CDC reported that unpasteurized milk is 150 times more likely to cause food borne illness and results in 13 times more hospitalizations than illnesses involving pasteurized dairy products.
> 
> Whether raw milk is safe to drink depends on the health of the cows, the handling of the milk; the cleaning and sterilization of equipment, and storage time and temperature.  Pasteurized which removes over 99% of the bacteria significantly reduces the chance of becoming sick from contaminated milk.
> 
> Federal laws prevent the interstate sale of raw milk but many states allow sales within the state. The push, if you want to call it that to allow raw milk sales across the country comes from small dairy farms struggling to survive, health food addicts that believe in the magic properties of raw milk, and right wing nuts who want to abolish all food safety laws.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well, if people want to risk it, I don't think the government should have to stop them.  Who cares?  Let people drink contaminated poop milk.  They aren't hurting anyone else.  As long as the consumer is aware, I don't see a problem with it.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The only ones saying it is "contaminated poop milk" are it's competitors.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Well if it's not regulated, you never know!
Click to expand...

Pasteurized milk is regulated. How much do we know about it? I know far more about the raw milk I buy then anything else I eat. When raw milk is regulated and sold in a store I don't even know if it is raw. I don't know what kind of cow it comes from, what the cow eats, or how the cow is treated.


----------



## regent

Is it true that before the government provided safety laws for food and drink, embalming fluid was used to keep milk from souring?


----------



## rawmilkmike

Alex. said:


> rawmilkmike said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Alex. said:
> 
> 
> 
> *The Dangers of Unpasteurized Milk *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pasteurization does not insure that these bacteria are not in the milk. There are no studies. What is said is that: pasteurization does not significantly change the nutritional value printed on the label and that they have done no resent studies that prove that pasteurization causes milk protein intolerance and that they don't recognize the studies that show pasteurization causes asthma. You don't need a study to prove that. Hyperbole, association is not proof of cause. What they know is that people that drink raw milk sometime get diarrhea just like the rest of us. The CDC's Minnesota study shows that the average American is 9 times more likely to contract a so called foodborne illness than people who drink raw milk. The named bacteria are some times found in diarrhea. That doesn't mean that they are the cause or that they are responsible for complications arising from medical treatments which have many deadly side effects. The named bacteria are seldom found in raw milk sold for human consumption and have never been proven to cause illness when they are. The CDC has never documented a single death associated with raw fluid milk consumption. Raw milk is healthy and is especially important for children, the elderly, pregnant women, and people with weakened immune systems. The illnesses they are referring to are associated with diarrhea for which their own study shows raw milk is preventative. Healthy people have never been showed to get sick from any of the named bacteria. If you look them up you will find the opposite is said. These bacteria are everywhere. They are in us, on us, and on almost everything we touch and or eat. Comments are disabled for this video. I wonder why.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I never said insure.
Click to expand...

Well, you didn't say anything. There is no way to know if you posted this video because you agree with it or because you think it is silly. If you are referring to the video, does this mean you agree with the rest of my critique of it?

As far as the word insure, my bag. She said “ And you can only be sure that they're not in your milk if it's been pasteurized.” Well, we are not sure that they are in our milk. An outbreak is only a mathematical association based either on the misguided presumption that raw milk is the most likely source or in the case of other foods strictly on percentages with no initial association. Pasteurized milk is associated with far more illness than raw milk and many of those associations are actually supported by what they like to call scientific research. Where as there is no research showing that raw milk has ever cause an illness.

Oh, and many of the “Some people” she is referring to actually know raw milk is more nutritious and more easily digested and they know pasteurization causes lactose intolerance because they have switched from pasteurized to raw. It's not a matter of belief for them. Often these are the people you are arguing with if in fact that is what you are attempting to do.


----------



## Flopper

ChrisL said:


> Flopper said:
> 
> 
> 
> Between 1993 and 2006 more than 1500 people in the United States became sick from drinking raw milk or eating cheese made from raw milk. In addition, CDC reported that unpasteurized milk is 150 times more likely to cause food borne illness and results in 13 times more hospitalizations than illnesses involving pasteurized dairy products.
> 
> Whether raw milk is safe to drink depends on the health of the cows, the handling of the milk; the cleaning and sterilization of equipment, and storage time and temperature.  Pasteurized which removes over 99% of the bacteria significantly reduces the chance of becoming sick from contaminated milk.
> 
> Federal laws prevent the interstate sale of raw milk but many states allow sales within the state. The push, if you want to call it that to allow raw milk sales across the country comes from small dairy farms struggling to survive, health food addicts that believe in the magic properties of raw milk, and right wing nuts who want to abolish all food safety laws.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well, if people want to risk it, I don't think the government should have to stop them.  Who cares?  Let people drink contaminated poop milk.  They aren't hurting anyone else.  As long as the consumer is aware, I don't see a problem with it.
Click to expand...

The problem is you can't tell whether the milk you buy in the store is contaminated or not. Even if you open the container you can't tell. Milk can have a high enough bacteria count to make you and your family sick and you will never know it till you're puking your guts out.  Milk doesn't have to be sour to be dangerous to drink.  The only way to protect yourself is to drink pasteurized milk.

I might agree with you if just the customer drank the milk.  Milk goes to institutions, food processors, restaurants, food banks, and your neighbors kids.  Thanks to pasteurization, illness from drinking milk is rare so people assume that milk in their glass is safe to drink.


----------



## ChrisL

Flopper said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Flopper said:
> 
> 
> 
> Between 1993 and 2006 more than 1500 people in the United States became sick from drinking raw milk or eating cheese made from raw milk. In addition, CDC reported that unpasteurized milk is 150 times more likely to cause food borne illness and results in 13 times more hospitalizations than illnesses involving pasteurized dairy products.
> 
> Whether raw milk is safe to drink depends on the health of the cows, the handling of the milk; the cleaning and sterilization of equipment, and storage time and temperature.  Pasteurized which removes over 99% of the bacteria significantly reduces the chance of becoming sick from contaminated milk.
> 
> Federal laws prevent the interstate sale of raw milk but many states allow sales within the state. The push, if you want to call it that to allow raw milk sales across the country comes from small dairy farms struggling to survive, health food addicts that believe in the magic properties of raw milk, and right wing nuts who want to abolish all food safety laws.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well, if people want to risk it, I don't think the government should have to stop them.  Who cares?  Let people drink contaminated poop milk.  They aren't hurting anyone else.  As long as the consumer is aware, I don't see a problem with it.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The problem is you can't tell whether the milk you buy in the store is contaminated or not. Even if you open the container you can't tell. Milk can have a high enough bacteria count to make you and your family sick and you will never know it till you're puking your guts out.  Milk doesn't have to be sour to be dangerous to drink.
Click to expand...


I drink milk all the time.  Lol!  I think some of you are just being babies.  People smoke, and cigarettes can make you sick and kill you, but the government is FINE with those.


----------



## rawmilkmike

regent said:


> Is it true that before the government provided safety laws for food and drink, embalming fluid was used to keep milk from souring?


First of all these are regulations and they are supposed to be ours not the government's. It's not the government's repeatability to say what can and can not be in our food. It is however, their job to make sure we know exactly what is in our food and they are failing miserably in that regard.

Did you know there is embalming fluid in GMO corn, diet soda, cigarettes, vaccines, beer, decaf coffee, toothpaste, and it is still used as a preservative in milk used as animal feed.


----------



## rawmilkmike

Flopper said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Flopper said:
> 
> 
> 
> Between 1993 and 2006 more than 1500 people in the United States became sick from drinking raw milk or eating cheese made from raw milk. In addition, CDC reported that unpasteurized milk is 150 times more likely to cause food borne illness and results in 13 times more hospitalizations than illnesses involving pasteurized dairy products.
> 
> Whether raw milk is safe to drink depends on the health of the cows, the handling of the milk; the cleaning and sterilization of equipment, and storage time and temperature.  Pasteurized which removes over 99% of the bacteria significantly reduces the chance of becoming sick from contaminated milk.
> 
> Federal laws prevent the interstate sale of raw milk but many states allow sales within the state. The push, if you want to call it that to allow raw milk sales across the country comes from small dairy farms struggling to survive, health food addicts that believe in the magic properties of raw milk, and right wing nuts who want to abolish all food safety laws.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well, if people want to risk it, I don't think the government should have to stop them.  Who cares?  Let people drink contaminated poop milk.  They aren't hurting anyone else.  As long as the consumer is aware, I don't see a problem with it.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The problem is you can't tell whether the milk you buy in the store is contaminated or not. Even if you open the container you can't tell. Milk can have a high enough bacteria count to make you and your family sick and you will never know it till you're puking your guts out.  Milk doesn't have to be sour to be dangerous to drink.  The only way to protect yourself is to drink pasteurized milk.
> 
> I might agree with you if just the customer drank the milk.  Milk goes to institutions, food processors, restaurants, food banks, and your neighbors kids.  Thanks to pasteurization, illness from drinking milk is rare so people assume that milk in their glass is safe to drink.
Click to expand...

In most states raw milk in not sold in stores. If you think the milk has made you sick stop drinking it or switch brands. 60 % of adults can't drink pasteurized milk. Raw milk does not go to restaurants and food banks even though it should. It would still be labeled. Who would give raw milk to their neighbors kids without their parents consent?


----------



## Flopper

rawmilkmike said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rawmilkmike said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Flopper said:
> 
> 
> 
> Between 1993 and 2006 more than 1500 people in the United States became sick from drinking raw milk or eating cheese made from raw milk. In addition, CDC reported that unpasteurized milk is 150 times more likely to cause food borne illness and results in 13 times more hospitalizations than illnesses involving pasteurized dairy products.
> 
> Whether raw milk is safe to drink depends on the health of the cows, the handling of the milk; the cleaning and sterilization of equipment, and storage time and temperature.  Pasteurized which removes over 99% of the bacteria significantly reduces the chance of becoming sick from contaminated milk.
> 
> Federal laws prevent the interstate sale of raw milk but many states allow sales within the state. The push, if you want to call it that to allow raw milk sales across the country comes from small dairy farms struggling to survive, health food addicts that believe in the magic properties of raw milk, and right wing nuts who want to abolish all food safety laws.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well, if people want to risk it, I don't think the government should have to stop them.  Who cares?  Let people drink contaminated poop milk.  They aren't hurting anyone else.  As long as the consumer is aware, I don't see a problem with it.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The only ones saying it is "contaminated poop milk" are it's competitors.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Well if it's not regulated, you never know!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Pasteurized milk is regulated. How much do we know about it? I know far more about the raw milk I buy then anything else I eat. When raw milk is regulated and sold in a store I don't even know if it is raw. I don't know what kind of cow it comes from, what the cow eats, or how the cow is treated.
Click to expand...

You don't how clean the dairy is and how healthy the  cows are or how long the milk has been stored and at what temperature.  You of course have the same problems with pasteurized milk with one big difference.  After milk has been pasteurized, almost all bacteria  originated at farm and in storage and transportation has been eliminated.  This provides a margin of error which is very important because milk is often not stored at the proper temperature and time period.


----------



## Indofred

martybegan said:


> How about the government just require raw milk to be LABELLED as raw milk, and let the customer decide?



That's what they did in the UK.
Different types had different coloured caps.
The red top became very unpopular and hardly sold.


----------



## rawmilkmike

Flopper said:


> rawmilkmike said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rawmilkmike said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Flopper said:
> 
> 
> 
> Between 1993 and 2006 more than 1500 people in the United States became sick from drinking raw milk or eating cheese made from raw milk. In addition, CDC reported that unpasteurized milk is 150 times more likely to cause food borne illness and results in 13 times more hospitalizations than illnesses involving pasteurized dairy products.
> 
> Whether raw milk is safe to drink depends on the health of the cows, the handling of the milk; the cleaning and sterilization of equipment, and storage time and temperature.  Pasteurized which removes over 99% of the bacteria significantly reduces the chance of becoming sick from contaminated milk.
> 
> Federal laws prevent the interstate sale of raw milk but many states allow sales within the state. The push, if you want to call it that to allow raw milk sales across the country comes from small dairy farms struggling to survive, health food addicts that believe in the magic properties of raw milk, and right wing nuts who want to abolish all food safety laws.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well, if people want to risk it, I don't think the government should have to stop them.  Who cares?  Let people drink contaminated poop milk.  They aren't hurting anyone else.  As long as the consumer is aware, I don't see a problem with it.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The only ones saying it is "contaminated poop milk" are it's competitors.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Well if it's not regulated, you never know!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Pasteurized milk is regulated. How much do we know about it? I know far more about the raw milk I buy then anything else I eat. When raw milk is regulated and sold in a store I don't even know if it is raw. I don't know what kind of cow it comes from, what the cow eats, or how the cow is treated.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You don't how clean the dairy is and how healthy the  cows are or how long the milk has been stored and at what temperature.  You of course have the same problems with pasteurized milk with one big difference.  After milk has been pasteurized, almost all bacteria  originated at farm and in storage and transportation has been eliminated.  This provides a margin of error which is very important because milk is often not stored at the proper temperature and time period.
Click to expand...

Often it is the same milk that is sold to the processor so you would know "how clean the dairy is and how healthy the cows are or how long the milk has been stored and at what temperature."

You do realize that raw milk only sours. It doesn't spoil at room temperature. Unwanted bacteria do not grow in raw milk. They do grow very well in sterilized milk.


----------



## Flopper

rawmilkmike said:


> Flopper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Flopper said:
> 
> 
> 
> Between 1993 and 2006 more than 1500 people in the United States became sick from drinking raw milk or eating cheese made from raw milk. In addition, CDC reported that unpasteurized milk is 150 times more likely to cause food borne illness and results in 13 times more hospitalizations than illnesses involving pasteurized dairy products.
> 
> Whether raw milk is safe to drink depends on the health of the cows, the handling of the milk; the cleaning and sterilization of equipment, and storage time and temperature.  Pasteurized which removes over 99% of the bacteria significantly reduces the chance of becoming sick from contaminated milk.
> 
> Federal laws prevent the interstate sale of raw milk but many states allow sales within the state. The push, if you want to call it that to allow raw milk sales across the country comes from small dairy farms struggling to survive, health food addicts that believe in the magic properties of raw milk, and right wing nuts who want to abolish all food safety laws.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well, if people want to risk it, I don't think the government should have to stop them.  Who cares?  Let people drink contaminated poop milk.  They aren't hurting anyone else.  As long as the consumer is aware, I don't see a problem with it.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The problem is you can't tell whether the milk you buy in the store is contaminated or not. Even if you open the container you can't tell. Milk can have a high enough bacteria count to make you and your family sick and you will never know it till you're puking your guts out.  Milk doesn't have to be sour to be dangerous to drink.  The only way to protect yourself is to drink pasteurized milk.
> 
> I might agree with you if just the customer drank the milk.  Milk goes to institutions, food processors, restaurants, food banks, and your neighbors kids.  Thanks to pasteurization, illness from drinking milk is rare so people assume that milk in their glass is safe to drink.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> In most states raw milk in not sold in stores. If you think the milk has made you sick stop drinking it or switch brands. 60 % of adults can't drink pasteurized milk. Raw milk does not go to restaurants and food banks even though it should. It would still be labeled. Who would give raw milk to their neighbors kids without their parents consent?
Click to expand...

Raw milk has a higher bacteria count of both good and bad bacteria thus more attention has to be given to storage temperatures and storage times.  Maybe you as an individual would be willing to do that.  Few restaurants are institutions would take on that responsibility.

60% of the adults can not digest milk because they are lactose intolerant.  Despite claims sometimes made about the health benefits of drinking raw milk, evidence does not suggest that drinking raw milk will relieve or lessen the symptoms of lactose intolerance, according to a study conducted by nutritionists at Stanford University and published this week in _Annals of Family Medicine_.

Study Examines Relationship Between Raw Milk and Lactose Intolerance Food Safety News


----------



## Flopper

rawmilkmike said:


> Flopper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rawmilkmike said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rawmilkmike said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Flopper said:
> 
> 
> 
> Between 1993 and 2006 more than 1500 people in the United States became sick from drinking raw milk or eating cheese made from raw milk. In addition, CDC reported that unpasteurized milk is 150 times more likely to cause food borne illness and results in 13 times more hospitalizations than illnesses involving pasteurized dairy products.
> 
> Whether raw milk is safe to drink depends on the health of the cows, the handling of the milk; the cleaning and sterilization of equipment, and storage time and temperature.  Pasteurized which removes over 99% of the bacteria significantly reduces the chance of becoming sick from contaminated milk.
> 
> Federal laws prevent the interstate sale of raw milk but many states allow sales within the state. The push, if you want to call it that to allow raw milk sales across the country comes from small dairy farms struggling to survive, health food addicts that believe in the magic properties of raw milk, and right wing nuts who want to abolish all food safety laws.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well, if people want to risk it, I don't think the government should have to stop them.  Who cares?  Let people drink contaminated poop milk.  They aren't hurting anyone else.  As long as the consumer is aware, I don't see a problem with it.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The only ones saying it is "contaminated poop milk" are it's competitors.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Well if it's not regulated, you never know!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Pasteurized milk is regulated. How much do we know about it? I know far more about the raw milk I buy then anything else I eat. When raw milk is regulated and sold in a store I don't even know if it is raw. I don't know what kind of cow it comes from, what the cow eats, or how the cow is treated.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You don't how clean the dairy is and how healthy the  cows are or how long the milk has been stored and at what temperature.  You of course have the same problems with pasteurized milk with one big difference.  After milk has been pasteurized, almost all bacteria  originated at farm and in storage and transportation has been eliminated.  This provides a margin of error which is very important because milk is often not stored at the proper temperature and time period.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Often it is the same milk that is sold to the processor so you would know "how clean the dairy is and how healthy the cows are or how long the milk has been stored and at what temperature."
> 
> You do realize that raw milk only sours. It doesn't spoil at room temperature. Unwanted bacteria do not grow in raw milk. They do grow very well in sterilized milk.
Click to expand...

Nonsense.  Bacteria will grow in any milk raw or pasteurized. The immune system in raw milk provides an environment that tends to suppress the growth of bacteria but it still grows.   Contamination can also spoil the milk, making it taste bitter and turn thick and sticky.  Now scientists have discovered new species of bacteria that can grow at low temperatures, spoiling raw milk even when it is refrigerated. 

New Bacteria Discovered In Raw Milk -- ScienceDaily


----------



## rawmilkmike

Flopper said:


> rawmilkmike said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Flopper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Flopper said:
> 
> 
> 
> Between 1993 and 2006 more than 1500 people in the United States became sick from drinking raw milk or eating cheese made from raw milk. In addition, CDC reported that unpasteurized milk is 150 times more likely to cause food borne illness and results in 13 times more hospitalizations than illnesses involving pasteurized dairy products.
> 
> Whether raw milk is safe to drink depends on the health of the cows, the handling of the milk; the cleaning and sterilization of equipment, and storage time and temperature.  Pasteurized which removes over 99% of the bacteria significantly reduces the chance of becoming sick from contaminated milk.
> 
> Federal laws prevent the interstate sale of raw milk but many states allow sales within the state. The push, if you want to call it that to allow raw milk sales across the country comes from small dairy farms struggling to survive, health food addicts that believe in the magic properties of raw milk, and right wing nuts who want to abolish all food safety laws.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well, if people want to risk it, I don't think the government should have to stop them.  Who cares?  Let people drink contaminated poop milk.  They aren't hurting anyone else.  As long as the consumer is aware, I don't see a problem with it.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The problem is you can't tell whether the milk you buy in the store is contaminated or not. Even if you open the container you can't tell. Milk can have a high enough bacteria count to make you and your family sick and you will never know it till you're puking your guts out.  Milk doesn't have to be sour to be dangerous to drink.  The only way to protect yourself is to drink pasteurized milk.
> 
> I might agree with you if just the customer drank the milk.  Milk goes to institutions, food processors, restaurants, food banks, and your neighbors kids.  Thanks to pasteurization, illness from drinking milk is rare so people assume that milk in their glass is safe to drink.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> In most states raw milk in not sold in stores. If you think the milk has made you sick stop drinking it or switch brands. 60 % of adults can't drink pasteurized milk. Raw milk does not go to restaurants and food banks even though it should. It would still be labeled. Who would give raw milk to their neighbors kids without their parents consent?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Raw milk has a higher bacteria count of both good and bad bacteria thus more attention has to be given to storage temperatures and storage times.  Maybe you as an individual would be willing to do that.  Few restaurants are institutions would take on that responsibility.
> 
> 60% of the adults can not digest milk because they are lactose intolerant.  Despite claims sometimes made about the health benefits of drinking raw milk, evidence does not suggest that drinking raw milk will relieve or lessen the symptoms of lactose intolerance, according to a study conducted by nutritionists at Stanford University and published this week in _Annals of Family Medicine_.
> 
> Study Examines Relationship Between Raw Milk and Lactose Intolerance Food Safety News
Click to expand...

Only good bacteria grow in raw milk “bad bacteria” do not. “bad bacteria” grow unchecked in pasteurized milk. For it time and temperature is an issue. At home many people drink the milk till it sours.

You are the one who said “restaurants and institutions” use raw milk.

By the way, the Mayo Clinic calls it milk protein intolerance. The Stanford University study was on 16 mildly lactose intolerant lactose malabsorbers. Lactose malabsorbers are generally not lactose intolerant. The study actually proved that lactose intolerance has nothing to do with lactose which they probably knew from the start.
Behind the Stanford Raw Milk Lactose Intolerant Study


----------



## Flopper

Indofred said:


> martybegan said:
> 
> 
> 
> How about the government just require raw milk to be LABELLED as raw milk, and let the customer decide?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That's what they did in the UK.
> Different types had different coloured caps.
> The red top became very unpopular and hardly sold.
Click to expand...

Most states that allow raw milk to be sold require it to be labeled as such. 
The federal law outlawing raw milk only applies to interstate sales. In state sales are controlled by state laws. Large dairy farms that ship across state lines would pasteurize with or without the federal law because they need to be able to store milk for longer periods of time plus many states require that milk be pasteurized.

The push to allow raw milk sales comes from small dairy farms who want to avoid the expense of pasteurizing and want to expand their market across state lines.


----------



## Flopper

Flopper said:


> Indofred said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> martybegan said:
> 
> 
> 
> How about the government just require raw milk to be LABELLED as raw milk, and let the customer decide?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That's what they did in the UK.
> Different types had different coloured caps.
> The red top became very unpopular and hardly sold.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Most states that allow raw milk to be sold require it to be labeled as such.
> The federal law outlawing raw milk only applies to interstate sales. In state sales are controlled by state laws. Large dairy farms that ship across state lines would pasteurize with or without the federal law because they need to be able to store milk for longer periods of time plus many states require that milk be pasteurized.
> 
> The push to allow raw milk sales comes from small dairy farms who want to avoid the expense of pasteurizing and want to expand their market across state lines.
Click to expand...



.


rawmilkmike said:


> Flopper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rawmilkmike said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Flopper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Flopper said:
> 
> 
> 
> Between 1993 and 2006 more than 1500 people in the United States became sick from drinking raw milk or eating cheese made from raw milk. In addition, CDC reported that unpasteurized milk is 150 times more likely to cause food borne illness and results in 13 times more hospitalizations than illnesses involving pasteurized dairy products.
> 
> Whether raw milk is safe to drink depends on the health of the cows, the handling of the milk; the cleaning and sterilization of equipment, and storage time and temperature.  Pasteurized which removes over 99% of the bacteria significantly reduces the chance of becoming sick from contaminated milk.
> 
> Federal laws prevent the interstate sale of raw milk but many states allow sales within the state. The push, if you want to call it that to allow raw milk sales across the country comes from small dairy farms struggling to survive, health food addicts that believe in the magic properties of raw milk, and right wing nuts who want to abolish all food safety laws.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well, if people want to risk it, I don't think the government should have to stop them.  Who cares?  Let people drink contaminated poop milk.  They aren't hurting anyone else.  As long as the consumer is aware, I don't see a problem with it.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The problem is you can't tell whether the milk you buy in the store is contaminated or not. Even if you open the container you can't tell. Milk can have a high enough bacteria count to make you and your family sick and you will never know it till you're puking your guts out.  Milk doesn't have to be sour to be dangerous to drink.  The only way to protect yourself is to drink pasteurized milk.
> 
> I might agree with you if just the customer drank the milk.  Milk goes to institutions, food processors, restaurants, food banks, and your neighbors kids.  Thanks to pasteurization, illness from drinking milk is rare so people assume that milk in their glass is safe to drink.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> In most states raw milk in not sold in stores. If you think the milk has made you sick stop drinking it or switch brands. 60 % of adults can't drink pasteurized milk. Raw milk does not go to restaurants and food banks even though it should. It would still be labeled. Who would give raw milk to their neighbors kids without their parents consent?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Raw milk has a higher bacteria count of both good and bad bacteria thus more attention has to be given to storage temperatures and storage times.  Maybe you as an individual would be willing to do that.  Few restaurants are institutions would take on that responsibility.
> 
> 60% of the adults can not digest milk because they are lactose intolerant.  Despite claims sometimes made about the health benefits of drinking raw milk, evidence does not suggest that drinking raw milk will relieve or lessen the symptoms of lactose intolerance, according to a study conducted by nutritionists at Stanford University and published this week in _Annals of Family Medicine_.
> 
> Study Examines Relationship Between Raw Milk and Lactose Intolerance Food Safety News
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Only good bacteria grow in raw milk “bad bacteria” do not. “bad bacteria” grow unchecked in pasteurized milk. For it time and temperature is an issue. At home many people drink the milk till it sours.
> 
> You are the one who said “restaurants and institutions” use raw milk.
> 
> By the way, the Mayo Clinic calls it milk protein intolerance. The Stanford University study was on 16 mildly lactose intolerant lactose malabsorbers. Lactose malabsorbers are generally not lactose intolerant. The study actually proved that lactose intolerance has nothing to do with lactose which they probably knew from the start.
> Behind the Stanford Raw Milk Lactose Intolerant Study
Click to expand...

The enzymes in the milk can't prevent either good or bad bacteria from growing, they can only retard the grow.

There are opinions and studies that support both claims but there is no concrete evidence that raw milk is a solution for for the 60% of Americans who can't drink milk.

You do realize that most of these studies are in one or another are funded by either the Milk Institute or the FDA.


----------



## rawmilkmike

Flopper said:


> Flopper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Indofred said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> martybegan said:
> 
> 
> 
> How about the government just require raw milk to be LABELLED as raw milk, and let the customer decide?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That's what they did in the UK.
> Different types had different coloured caps.
> The red top became very unpopular and hardly sold.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Most states that allow raw milk to be sold require it to be labeled as such.
> The federal law outlawing raw milk only applies to interstate sales. In state sales are controlled by state laws. Large dairy farms that ship across state lines would pasteurize with or without the federal law because they need to be able to store milk for longer periods of time plus many states require that milk be pasteurized.
> 
> The push to allow raw milk sales comes from small dairy farms who want to avoid the expense of pasteurizing and want to expand their market across state lines.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> .
> 
> 
> rawmilkmike said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Flopper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rawmilkmike said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Flopper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Flopper said:
> 
> 
> 
> Between 1993 and 2006 more than 1500 people in the United States became sick from drinking raw milk or eating cheese made from raw milk. In addition, CDC reported that unpasteurized milk is 150 times more likely to cause food borne illness and results in 13 times more hospitalizations than illnesses involving pasteurized dairy products.
> 
> Whether raw milk is safe to drink depends on the health of the cows, the handling of the milk; the cleaning and sterilization of equipment, and storage time and temperature.  Pasteurized which removes over 99% of the bacteria significantly reduces the chance of becoming sick from contaminated milk.
> 
> Federal laws prevent the interstate sale of raw milk but many states allow sales within the state. The push, if you want to call it that to allow raw milk sales across the country comes from small dairy farms struggling to survive, health food addicts that believe in the magic properties of raw milk, and right wing nuts who want to abolish all food safety laws.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Well, if people want to risk it, I don't think the government should have to stop them.  Who cares?  Let people drink contaminated poop milk.  They aren't hurting anyone else.  As long as the consumer is aware, I don't see a problem with it.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The problem is you can't tell whether the milk you buy in the store is contaminated or not. Even if you open the container you can't tell. Milk can have a high enough bacteria count to make you and your family sick and you will never know it till you're puking your guts out.  Milk doesn't have to be sour to be dangerous to drink.  The only way to protect yourself is to drink pasteurized milk.
> 
> I might agree with you if just the customer drank the milk.  Milk goes to institutions, food processors, restaurants, food banks, and your neighbors kids.  Thanks to pasteurization, illness from drinking milk is rare so people assume that milk in their glass is safe to drink.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> In most states raw milk in not sold in stores. If you think the milk has made you sick stop drinking it or switch brands. 60 % of adults can't drink pasteurized milk. Raw milk does not go to restaurants and food banks even though it should. It would still be labeled. Who would give raw milk to their neighbors kids without their parents consent?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Raw milk has a higher bacteria count of both good and bad bacteria thus more attention has to be given to storage temperatures and storage times.  Maybe you as an individual would be willing to do that.  Few restaurants are institutions would take on that responsibility.
> 
> 60% of the adults can not digest milk because they are lactose intolerant.  Despite claims sometimes made about the health benefits of drinking raw milk, evidence does not suggest that drinking raw milk will relieve or lessen the symptoms of lactose intolerance, according to a study conducted by nutritionists at Stanford University and published this week in _Annals of Family Medicine_.
> 
> Study Examines Relationship Between Raw Milk and Lactose Intolerance Food Safety News
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Only good bacteria grow in raw milk “bad bacteria” do not. “bad bacteria” grow unchecked in pasteurized milk. For it time and temperature is an issue. At home many people drink the milk till it sours.
> 
> You are the one who said “restaurants and institutions” use raw milk.
> 
> By the way, the Mayo Clinic calls it milk protein intolerance. The Stanford University study was on 16 mildly lactose intolerant lactose malabsorbers. Lactose malabsorbers are generally not lactose intolerant. The study actually proved that lactose intolerance has nothing to do with lactose which they probably knew from the start.
> Behind the Stanford Raw Milk Lactose Intolerant Study
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The enzymes in the milk can't prevent either good or bad bacteria from growing, they can only retard the grow.
> 
> There are opinions and studies that support both claims but there is no concrete evidence that raw milk is a solution for for the 60% of Americans who can't drink milk.
> 
> You do realize that most of these studies are in one or another are funded by either the Milk Institute or the FDA.
Click to expand...

Every bacteria is different how can they all be effected equally and aren't you forgetting increasing acidity and reducing lactose? Any environmental change will select for certain bacteria.

Why do we need concrete evidence?

What's the Milk Institute? What's your point about the FDA?


----------



## rawmilkmike

Flopper said:


> rawmilkmike said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Flopper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rawmilkmike said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rawmilkmike said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Flopper said:
> 
> 
> 
> Between 1993 and 2006 more than 1500 people in the United States became sick from drinking raw milk or eating cheese made from raw milk. In addition, CDC reported that unpasteurized milk is 150 times more likely to cause food borne illness and results in 13 times more hospitalizations than illnesses involving pasteurized dairy products.
> 
> Whether raw milk is safe to drink depends on the health of the cows, the handling of the milk; the cleaning and sterilization of equipment, and storage time and temperature.  Pasteurized which removes over 99% of the bacteria significantly reduces the chance of becoming sick from contaminated milk.
> 
> Federal laws prevent the interstate sale of raw milk but many states allow sales within the state. The push, if you want to call it that to allow raw milk sales across the country comes from small dairy farms struggling to survive, health food addicts that believe in the magic properties of raw milk, and right wing nuts who want to abolish all food safety laws.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well, if people want to risk it, I don't think the government should have to stop them.  Who cares?  Let people drink contaminated poop milk.  They aren't hurting anyone else.  As long as the consumer is aware, I don't see a problem with it.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The only ones saying it is "contaminated poop milk" are it's competitors.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Well if it's not regulated, you never know!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Pasteurized milk is regulated. How much do we know about it? I know far more about the raw milk I buy then anything else I eat. When raw milk is regulated and sold in a store I don't even know if it is raw. I don't know what kind of cow it comes from, what the cow eats, or how the cow is treated.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You don't how clean the dairy is and how healthy the  cows are or how long the milk has been stored and at what temperature.  You of course have the same problems with pasteurized milk with one big difference.  After milk has been pasteurized, almost all bacteria  originated at farm and in storage and transportation has been eliminated.  This provides a margin of error which is very important because milk is often not stored at the proper temperature and time period.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Often it is the same milk that is sold to the processor so you would know "how clean the dairy is and how healthy the cows are or how long the milk has been stored and at what temperature."
> 
> You do realize that raw milk only sours. It doesn't spoil at room temperature. Unwanted bacteria do not grow in raw milk. They do grow very well in sterilized milk.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Nonsense.  Bacteria will grow in any milk raw or pasteurized. The immune system in raw milk provides an environment that tends to suppress the growth of bacteria but it still grows.   Contamination can also spoil the milk, making it taste bitter and turn thick and sticky.  Now scientists have discovered new species of bacteria that can grow at low temperatures, spoiling raw milk even when it is refrigerated.
> 
> New Bacteria Discovered In Raw Milk -- ScienceDaily
Click to expand...

Nonsense, some but not all bacteria will grow in any milk raw or pasteurized. The immune system in raw milk provides an environment that suppress the growth of bacteria but some will still grow until the milk becomes curds and whey. “bitter, thick and sticky” but still a very healthy food.

This is a great article. Did you read it? It describes how a previously unknown milk bacteria produces the heat resistant enzymes that effect the flavor of pasteurized milk.


----------



## ChrisL

Flopper said:


> Indofred said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> martybegan said:
> 
> 
> 
> How about the government just require raw milk to be LABELLED as raw milk, and let the customer decide?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That's what they did in the UK.
> Different types had different coloured caps.
> The red top became very unpopular and hardly sold.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Most states that allow raw milk to be sold require it to be labeled as such.
> The federal law outlawing raw milk only applies to interstate sales. In state sales are controlled by state laws. Large dairy farms that ship across state lines would pasteurize with or without the federal law because they need to be able to store milk for longer periods of time plus many states require that milk be pasteurized.
> 
> The push to allow raw milk sales comes from small dairy farms who want to avoid the expense of pasteurizing and want to expand their market across state lines.
Click to expand...


Again, I have to bring up cigarettes.  Doesn't that cross your mind at all?  Why is selling cigarettes legal, but selling raw MILK is illegal?


----------



## rawmilkmike

ChrisL said:


> Flopper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Indofred said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> martybegan said:
> 
> 
> 
> How about the government just require raw milk to be LABELLED as raw milk, and let the customer decide?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That's what they did in the UK.
> Different types had different coloured caps.
> The red top became very unpopular and hardly sold.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Most states that allow raw milk to be sold require it to be labeled as such.
> The federal law outlawing raw milk only applies to interstate sales. In state sales are controlled by state laws. Large dairy farms that ship across state lines would pasteurize with or without the federal law because they need to be able to store milk for longer periods of time plus many states require that milk be pasteurized.
> 
> The push to allow raw milk sales comes from small dairy farms who want to avoid the expense of pasteurizing and want to expand their market across state lines.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Again, I have to bring up cigarettes.  Doesn't that cross your mind at all?  Why is selling cigarettes legal, but selling raw MILK is illegal?
Click to expand...

raw milk isn't really illegal


----------



## rawmilkmike

Flopper said:


> rawmilkmike said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rawmilkmike said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Flopper said:
> 
> 
> 
> Between 1993 and 2006 more than 1500 people in the United States became sick from drinking raw milk or eating cheese made from raw milk. In addition, CDC reported that unpasteurized milk is 150 times more likely to cause food borne illness and results in 13 times more hospitalizations than illnesses involving pasteurized dairy products.
> 
> Whether raw milk is safe to drink depends on the health of the cows, the handling of the milk; the cleaning and sterilization of equipment, and storage time and temperature.  Pasteurized which removes over 99% of the bacteria significantly reduces the chance of becoming sick from contaminated milk.
> 
> Federal laws prevent the interstate sale of raw milk but many states allow sales within the state. The push, if you want to call it that to allow raw milk sales across the country comes from small dairy farms struggling to survive, health food addicts that believe in the magic properties of raw milk, and right wing nuts who want to abolish all food safety laws.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well, if people want to risk it, I don't think the government should have to stop them.  Who cares?  Let people drink contaminated poop milk.  They aren't hurting anyone else.  As long as the consumer is aware, I don't see a problem with it.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The only ones saying it is "contaminated poop milk" are it's competitors.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Well if it's not regulated, you never know!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Pasteurized milk is regulated. How much do we know about it? I know far more about the raw milk I buy then anything else I eat. When raw milk is regulated and sold in a store I don't even know if it is raw. I don't know what kind of cow it comes from, what the cow eats, or how the cow is treated.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You don't how clean the dairy is and how healthy the  cows are or how long the milk has been stored and at what temperature.  You of course have the same problems with pasteurized milk with one big difference.  After milk has been pasteurized, almost all bacteria  originated at farm and in storage and transportation has been eliminated.  This provides a margin of error which is very important because milk is often not stored at the proper temperature and time period.
Click to expand...

Pasteurized milk is regulated. How much do we know about it? There are a lot of steps after pasteurization. A family farm is much less toxic than a processing plant. Filling your own bottles right on the farm eliminates all those steps and all those exposures.


----------



## ChrisL

rawmilkmike said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Flopper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Indofred said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> martybegan said:
> 
> 
> 
> How about the government just require raw milk to be LABELLED as raw milk, and let the customer decide?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That's what they did in the UK.
> Different types had different coloured caps.
> The red top became very unpopular and hardly sold.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Most states that allow raw milk to be sold require it to be labeled as such.
> The federal law outlawing raw milk only applies to interstate sales. In state sales are controlled by state laws. Large dairy farms that ship across state lines would pasteurize with or without the federal law because they need to be able to store milk for longer periods of time plus many states require that milk be pasteurized.
> 
> The push to allow raw milk sales comes from small dairy farms who want to avoid the expense of pasteurizing and want to expand their market across state lines.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Again, I have to bring up cigarettes.  Doesn't that cross your mind at all?  Why is selling cigarettes legal, but selling raw MILK is illegal?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> raw milk isn't really illegal
Click to expand...


I thought it was illegal to sell it?


----------



## koshergrl

ChrisL said:


> Flopper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Indofred said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> martybegan said:
> 
> 
> 
> How about the government just require raw milk to be LABELLED as raw milk, and let the customer decide?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That's what they did in the UK.
> Different types had different coloured caps.
> The red top became very unpopular and hardly sold.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Most states that allow raw milk to be sold require it to be labeled as such.
> The federal law outlawing raw milk only applies to interstate sales. In state sales are controlled by state laws. Large dairy farms that ship across state lines would pasteurize with or without the federal law because they need to be able to store milk for longer periods of time plus many states require that milk be pasteurized.
> 
> The push to allow raw milk sales comes from small dairy farms who want to avoid the expense of pasteurizing and want to expand their market across state lines.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Again, I have to bring up cigarettes.  Doesn't that cross your mind at all?  Why is selling cigarettes legal, but selling raw MILK is illegal?
Click to expand...


Probably because babies are hardly ever killed outright when they're forced to smoke. Though it certainly is illegal for underaged persons to smoke...perhaps we should just make it illegal to feed the underaged raw milk. Let the adult idiots take their chances.


----------



## ChrisL

rawmilkmike said:


> Flopper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rawmilkmike said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rawmilkmike said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well, if people want to risk it, I don't think the government should have to stop them.  Who cares?  Let people drink contaminated poop milk.  They aren't hurting anyone else.  As long as the consumer is aware, I don't see a problem with it.
> 
> 
> 
> The only ones saying it is "contaminated poop milk" are it's competitors.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Well if it's not regulated, you never know!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Pasteurized milk is regulated. How much do we know about it? I know far more about the raw milk I buy then anything else I eat. When raw milk is regulated and sold in a store I don't even know if it is raw. I don't know what kind of cow it comes from, what the cow eats, or how the cow is treated.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You don't how clean the dairy is and how healthy the  cows are or how long the milk has been stored and at what temperature.  You of course have the same problems with pasteurized milk with one big difference.  After milk has been pasteurized, almost all bacteria  originated at farm and in storage and transportation has been eliminated.  This provides a margin of error which is very important because milk is often not stored at the proper temperature and time period.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Pasteurized milk is regulated. How much do we know about it? There are a lot of steps after pasteurization. A family farm is much less toxic than a processing plant. Filling your own bottles right on the farm eliminates all those steps and all those exposures.
Click to expand...


Well, we know that the facilities are inspected on a regular basis for cleanliness, etc.  I'm sure they occasionally take samples to test the milk too.  I believe those are some things they are SUPPOSED to be doing anyways.


----------



## gallantwarrior

Flopper said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Flopper said:
> 
> 
> 
> Between 1993 and 2006 more than 1500 people in the United States became sick from drinking raw milk or eating cheese made from raw milk. In addition, CDC reported that unpasteurized milk is 150 times more likely to cause food borne illness and results in 13 times more hospitalizations than illnesses involving pasteurized dairy products.
> 
> Whether raw milk is safe to drink depends on the health of the cows, the handling of the milk; the cleaning and sterilization of equipment, and storage time and temperature.  Pasteurized which removes over 99% of the bacteria significantly reduces the chance of becoming sick from contaminated milk.
> 
> Federal laws prevent the interstate sale of raw milk but many states allow sales within the state. The push, if you want to call it that to allow raw milk sales across the country comes from small dairy farms struggling to survive, health food addicts that believe in the magic properties of raw milk, and right wing nuts who want to abolish all food safety laws.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well, if people want to risk it, I don't think the government should have to stop them.  Who cares?  Let people drink contaminated poop milk.  They aren't hurting anyone else.  As long as the consumer is aware, I don't see a problem with it.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The problem is you can't tell whether the milk you buy in the store is contaminated or not. Even if you open the container you can't tell. Milk can have a high enough bacteria count to make you and your family sick and you will never know it till you're puking your guts out.  Milk doesn't have to be sour to be dangerous to drink.  The only way to protect yourself is to drink pasteurized milk.
> 
> I might agree with you if just the customer drank the milk.  Milk goes to institutions, food processors, restaurants, food banks, and your neighbors kids.  Thanks to pasteurization, illness from drinking milk is rare so people assume that milk in their glass is safe to drink.
Click to expand...


I haven't seen anyone here advocate that all milk be raw, that pasteurized milk not be available for those who prefer it.  People who want to consume raw milk are interested in changing the draconian regulations that make it almost impossible in many places, or at least extremely inconvenient, to acquire raw milk.  And, enforcement of the anti-raw-milk regulations has reached the level of pogroms directed at the producers/sellers of raw milk to consumers.


----------



## ChrisL

gallantwarrior said:


> Flopper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Flopper said:
> 
> 
> 
> Between 1993 and 2006 more than 1500 people in the United States became sick from drinking raw milk or eating cheese made from raw milk. In addition, CDC reported that unpasteurized milk is 150 times more likely to cause food borne illness and results in 13 times more hospitalizations than illnesses involving pasteurized dairy products.
> 
> Whether raw milk is safe to drink depends on the health of the cows, the handling of the milk; the cleaning and sterilization of equipment, and storage time and temperature.  Pasteurized which removes over 99% of the bacteria significantly reduces the chance of becoming sick from contaminated milk.
> 
> Federal laws prevent the interstate sale of raw milk but many states allow sales within the state. The push, if you want to call it that to allow raw milk sales across the country comes from small dairy farms struggling to survive, health food addicts that believe in the magic properties of raw milk, and right wing nuts who want to abolish all food safety laws.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well, if people want to risk it, I don't think the government should have to stop them.  Who cares?  Let people drink contaminated poop milk.  They aren't hurting anyone else.  As long as the consumer is aware, I don't see a problem with it.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The problem is you can't tell whether the milk you buy in the store is contaminated or not. Even if you open the container you can't tell. Milk can have a high enough bacteria count to make you and your family sick and you will never know it till you're puking your guts out.  Milk doesn't have to be sour to be dangerous to drink.  The only way to protect yourself is to drink pasteurized milk.
> 
> I might agree with you if just the customer drank the milk.  Milk goes to institutions, food processors, restaurants, food banks, and your neighbors kids.  Thanks to pasteurization, illness from drinking milk is rare so people assume that milk in their glass is safe to drink.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I haven't seen anyone here advocate that all milk be raw, that pasteurized milk not be available for those who prefer it.  People who want to consume raw milk are interested in changing the draconian regulations that make it almost impossible in many places, or at least extremely inconvenient, to acquire raw milk.  And, enforcement of the anti-raw-milk regulations has reached the level of pogroms directed at the producers/sellers of raw milk to consumers.
Click to expand...


That's right.  I am certainly not advocating for there to be only raw milk, but for there to be choices available to the consumer.  If people want to risk it, that's up to them IMO.  I might even try it.


----------



## gallantwarrior

Flopper said:


> Indofred said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> martybegan said:
> 
> 
> 
> How about the government just require raw milk to be LABELLED as raw milk, and let the customer decide?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That's what they did in the UK.
> Different types had different coloured caps.
> The red top became very unpopular and hardly sold.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Most states that allow raw milk to be sold require it to be labeled as such.
> The federal law outlawing raw milk only applies to interstate sales. In state sales are controlled by state laws. Large dairy farms that ship across state lines would pasteurize with or without the federal law because they need to be able to store milk for longer periods of time plus many states require that milk be pasteurized.
> 
> The push to allow raw milk sales comes from small dairy farms who want to avoid the expense of pasteurizing and want to expand their market across state lines.
Click to expand...


The push to allow raw milk sales comes from small dairy farmers (I am one) who are constantly asked whether we sell our milk raw.  There's tremendous interest and a huge market for raw milk available.  While I will pasteurize my milk if the customer requests it, I still have to abide by the regulations and sell it under the same conditions I would if it were raw.  The reason for that is qualifying as a Grade A dairy can be onerous, difficult to achieve, and yes, expensive.  Here's a short overview of some of the requirements: Langston University Goat Research Extension.  If you were to look at the more detailed literature, they even dictate the candlepower your lights have to comply with.
As far regulation of sales, it varies from one state to another.  Most states allow farm sale of raw milk.  This should give the consumer the ability to actually check and see how the animals and product are handled.  (I welcome any of my customers to visit.)  There are five "models" for raw milk sales: 1) no sales allowed, under any circumstances; 2) can be sold as pet food only and must be de-natured, usually by adding charcoal to discolor the milk; 3) herd shares legal (as in Alaska) that allow the owners of an animal to consume the raw milk produces.  This allows a person to purchase a "share" of the herd (become an owner), and thereby consume "their" milk; 4) farm sales permitted, the consumer buys the milk at the location where it is produced; and, finally, 5) legal retail sales of raw milk.  When sold as such, raw milk and raw milk products must be labelled.
State-by-State Review of Raw Milk Laws


----------



## gallantwarrior

ChrisL said:


> rawmilkmike said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Flopper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rawmilkmike said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rawmilkmike said:
> 
> 
> 
> The only ones saying it is "contaminated poop milk" are it's competitors.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well if it's not regulated, you never know!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Pasteurized milk is regulated. How much do we know about it? I know far more about the raw milk I buy then anything else I eat. When raw milk is regulated and sold in a store I don't even know if it is raw. I don't know what kind of cow it comes from, what the cow eats, or how the cow is treated.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You don't how clean the dairy is and how healthy the  cows are or how long the milk has been stored and at what temperature.  You of course have the same problems with pasteurized milk with one big difference.  After milk has been pasteurized, almost all bacteria  originated at farm and in storage and transportation has been eliminated.  This provides a margin of error which is very important because milk is often not stored at the proper temperature and time period.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Pasteurized milk is regulated. How much do we know about it? There are a lot of steps after pasteurization. A family farm is much less toxic than a processing plant. Filling your own bottles right on the farm eliminates all those steps and all those exposures.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Well, we know that the facilities are inspected on a regular basis for cleanliness, etc.  I'm sure they occasionally take samples to test the milk too.  I believe those are some things they are SUPPOSED to be doing anyways.
Click to expand...


Guess what, places where raw milk sales are permitted also have inspection requirements.


----------



## gallantwarrior

ChrisL said:


> gallantwarrior said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Flopper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Flopper said:
> 
> 
> 
> Between 1993 and 2006 more than 1500 people in the United States became sick from drinking raw milk or eating cheese made from raw milk. In addition, CDC reported that unpasteurized milk is 150 times more likely to cause food borne illness and results in 13 times more hospitalizations than illnesses involving pasteurized dairy products.
> 
> Whether raw milk is safe to drink depends on the health of the cows, the handling of the milk; the cleaning and sterilization of equipment, and storage time and temperature.  Pasteurized which removes over 99% of the bacteria significantly reduces the chance of becoming sick from contaminated milk.
> 
> Federal laws prevent the interstate sale of raw milk but many states allow sales within the state. The push, if you want to call it that to allow raw milk sales across the country comes from small dairy farms struggling to survive, health food addicts that believe in the magic properties of raw milk, and right wing nuts who want to abolish all food safety laws.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well, if people want to risk it, I don't think the government should have to stop them.  Who cares?  Let people drink contaminated poop milk.  They aren't hurting anyone else.  As long as the consumer is aware, I don't see a problem with it.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The problem is you can't tell whether the milk you buy in the store is contaminated or not. Even if you open the container you can't tell. Milk can have a high enough bacteria count to make you and your family sick and you will never know it till you're puking your guts out.  Milk doesn't have to be sour to be dangerous to drink.  The only way to protect yourself is to drink pasteurized milk.
> 
> I might agree with you if just the customer drank the milk.  Milk goes to institutions, food processors, restaurants, food banks, and your neighbors kids.  Thanks to pasteurization, illness from drinking milk is rare so people assume that milk in their glass is safe to drink.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I haven't seen anyone here advocate that all milk be raw, that pasteurized milk not be available for those who prefer it.  People who want to consume raw milk are interested in changing the draconian regulations that make it almost impossible in many places, or at least extremely inconvenient, to acquire raw milk.  And, enforcement of the anti-raw-milk regulations has reached the level of pogroms directed at the producers/sellers of raw milk to consumers.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> That's right.  I am certainly not advocating for there to be only raw milk, but for there to be choices available to the consumer.  If people want to risk it, that's up to them IMO.  I might even try it.
Click to expand...


I didn't think you were.  I do believe it should be far less difficult for someone who wants raw milk to acquire it.  My brochure clearly states that some studies claim that raw milk may be hazardous.  I also provide links for raw milk information.


----------



## koshergrl

gallantwarrior said:


> Flopper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Flopper said:
> 
> 
> 
> Between 1993 and 2006 more than 1500 people in the United States became sick from drinking raw milk or eating cheese made from raw milk. In addition, CDC reported that unpasteurized milk is 150 times more likely to cause food borne illness and results in 13 times more hospitalizations than illnesses involving pasteurized dairy products.
> 
> Whether raw milk is safe to drink depends on the health of the cows, the handling of the milk; the cleaning and sterilization of equipment, and storage time and temperature.  Pasteurized which removes over 99% of the bacteria significantly reduces the chance of becoming sick from contaminated milk.
> 
> Federal laws prevent the interstate sale of raw milk but many states allow sales within the state. The push, if you want to call it that to allow raw milk sales across the country comes from small dairy farms struggling to survive, health food addicts that believe in the magic properties of raw milk, and right wing nuts who want to abolish all food safety laws.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well, if people want to risk it, I don't think the government should have to stop them.  Who cares?  Let people drink contaminated poop milk.  They aren't hurting anyone else.  As long as the consumer is aware, I don't see a problem with it.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The problem is you can't tell whether the milk you buy in the store is contaminated or not. Even if you open the container you can't tell. Milk can have a high enough bacteria count to make you and your family sick and you will never know it till you're puking your guts out.  Milk doesn't have to be sour to be dangerous to drink.  The only way to protect yourself is to drink pasteurized milk.
> 
> I might agree with you if just the customer drank the milk.  Milk goes to institutions, food processors, restaurants, food banks, and your neighbors kids.  Thanks to pasteurization, illness from drinking milk is rare so people assume that milk in their glass is safe to drink.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I haven't seen anyone here advocate that all milk be raw, that pasteurized milk not be available for those who prefer it.  People who want to consume raw milk are interested in changing the draconian regulations that make it almost impossible in many places, or at least extremely inconvenient, to acquire raw milk.  And, enforcement of the anti-raw-milk regulations has reached the level of pogroms directed at the producers/sellers of raw milk to consumers.
Click to expand...

What I have seen is dangerous pro-raw milk propaganda that pooh-poohs the inherent risks, and proclaims benefits of raw milk that have not been established scientifically...in the face of all public health authorities who are BEGGING them to stop spreading bad information, and who are BEGGING parents to abstain from feeding their children raw milk.


----------



## gallantwarrior

koshergrl said:


> gallantwarrior said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Flopper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Flopper said:
> 
> 
> 
> Between 1993 and 2006 more than 1500 people in the United States became sick from drinking raw milk or eating cheese made from raw milk. In addition, CDC reported that unpasteurized milk is 150 times more likely to cause food borne illness and results in 13 times more hospitalizations than illnesses involving pasteurized dairy products.
> 
> Whether raw milk is safe to drink depends on the health of the cows, the handling of the milk; the cleaning and sterilization of equipment, and storage time and temperature.  Pasteurized which removes over 99% of the bacteria significantly reduces the chance of becoming sick from contaminated milk.
> 
> Federal laws prevent the interstate sale of raw milk but many states allow sales within the state. The push, if you want to call it that to allow raw milk sales across the country comes from small dairy farms struggling to survive, health food addicts that believe in the magic properties of raw milk, and right wing nuts who want to abolish all food safety laws.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well, if people want to risk it, I don't think the government should have to stop them.  Who cares?  Let people drink contaminated poop milk.  They aren't hurting anyone else.  As long as the consumer is aware, I don't see a problem with it.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The problem is you can't tell whether the milk you buy in the store is contaminated or not. Even if you open the container you can't tell. Milk can have a high enough bacteria count to make you and your family sick and you will never know it till you're puking your guts out.  Milk doesn't have to be sour to be dangerous to drink.  The only way to protect yourself is to drink pasteurized milk.
> 
> I might agree with you if just the customer drank the milk.  Milk goes to institutions, food processors, restaurants, food banks, and your neighbors kids.  Thanks to pasteurization, illness from drinking milk is rare so people assume that milk in their glass is safe to drink.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I haven't seen anyone here advocate that all milk be raw, that pasteurized milk not be available for those who prefer it.  People who want to consume raw milk are interested in changing the draconian regulations that make it almost impossible in many places, or at least extremely inconvenient, to acquire raw milk.  And, enforcement of the anti-raw-milk regulations has reached the level of pogroms directed at the producers/sellers of raw milk to consumers.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> What I have seen is dangerous pro-raw milk propaganda that pooh-poohs the inherent risks, and proclaims benefits of raw milk that have not been established scientifically...in the face of all public health authorities who are BEGGING them to stop spreading bad information, and who are BEGGING parents to abstain from feeding their children raw milk.
Click to expand...


Who owns the public (government) health authorities?  Who owns the government agencies whose "studies" "prove" the dangers of raw milk?  Follow the money, just like the whole organic issue, if small holders can be demonized and destroyed, the market share of the big agri-concerns will be increased.


----------



## rawmilkmike

koshergrl said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Flopper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Indofred said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> martybegan said:
> 
> 
> 
> How about the government just require raw milk to be LABELLED as raw milk, and let the customer decide?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That's what they did in the UK.
> Different types had different coloured caps.
> The red top became very unpopular and hardly sold.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Most states that allow raw milk to be sold require it to be labeled as such.
> The federal law outlawing raw milk only applies to interstate sales. In state sales are controlled by state laws. Large dairy farms that ship across state lines would pasteurize with or without the federal law because they need to be able to store milk for longer periods of time plus many states require that milk be pasteurized.
> 
> The push to allow raw milk sales comes from small dairy farms who want to avoid the expense of pasteurizing and want to expand their market across state lines.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Again, I have to bring up cigarettes.  Doesn't that cross your mind at all?  Why is selling cigarettes legal, but selling raw MILK is illegal?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Probably because babies are hardly ever killed outright when they're forced to smoke. Though it certainly is illegal for underaged persons to smoke...perhaps we should just make it illegal to feed the underaged raw milk. Let the adult idiots take their chances.
Click to expand...

The CDC hasn't documented any deaths associated with raw fluid milk consumption. And parents don't want their kids smoking.


----------



## koshergrl

Yeah, I have common sense. I don't believe there's a government conspiracy to prevent us from drinking raw milk. The nature of milk as it is produced today makes raw milk a very, very risky venture. For kids.


----------



## koshergrl

rawmilkmike said:


> koshergrl said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Flopper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Indofred said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> martybegan said:
> 
> 
> 
> How about the government just require raw milk to be LABELLED as raw milk, and let the customer decide?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That's what they did in the UK.
> Different types had different coloured caps.
> The red top became very unpopular and hardly sold.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Most states that allow raw milk to be sold require it to be labeled as such.
> The federal law outlawing raw milk only applies to interstate sales. In state sales are controlled by state laws. Large dairy farms that ship across state lines would pasteurize with or without the federal law because they need to be able to store milk for longer periods of time plus many states require that milk be pasteurized.
> 
> The push to allow raw milk sales comes from small dairy farms who want to avoid the expense of pasteurizing and want to expand their market across state lines.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Again, I have to bring up cigarettes.  Doesn't that cross your mind at all?  Why is selling cigarettes legal, but selling raw MILK is illegal?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Probably because babies are hardly ever killed outright when they're forced to smoke. Though it certainly is illegal for underaged persons to smoke...perhaps we should just make it illegal to feed the underaged raw milk. Let the adult idiots take their chances.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The CDC hasn't documented any deaths associated with raw fluid milk consumption. And parents don't want their kids smoking.
Click to expand...


The CDC says:

"Raw milk can carry harmful bacteria and other germs that can make you very sick or kill you. While it is possible to get foodborne illnesses from many different foods, raw milk is one of the riskiest of all.

"Getting sick from raw milk can mean many days of diarrhea, stomach cramping, and vomiting. Less commonly, it can mean kidney failure, paralysis, chronic disorders, and even death."

"From 1998 through 2011, 148 outbreaks due to consumption of raw milk or raw milk products were reported to CDC. These resulted in 2,384 illnesses, 284 hospitalizations, and 2 deaths. Most of these illnesses were caused by _Escherichia coli_, _Campylobacter_, _Salmonella, or Listeria_. It is important to note that a substantial proportion of the raw milk-associated disease burden falls on children; among the 104 outbreaks from 1998-2011 with information on the patients’ ages available, 82% involved at least one person younger than 20 years old.
Because not all cases of foodborne illness are recognized and reported, the actual number of illnesses associated with raw milk likely is greater."

CDC - Raw Milk Questions and Answers - Food Safety


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## koshergrl

"There are no health benefits from drinking raw milk that cannot be obtained from drinking pasteurized milk that is free of disease-causing bacteria. The process of pasteurization of milk has never been found to be the cause of chronic diseases, allergies, or developmental or behavioral problems."

CDC - Raw Milk Questions and Answers - Food Safety


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## koshergrl

"Routine pasteurization of milk began in the United States in the 1920s and became widespread by 1950 as a means to reduce contamination and reduce human illnesses. It led to dramatic reductions in the number of people getting sick from diseases that had previously been transmitted commonly by milk. Most public health professionals and health care providers consider pasteurization to be one of public health’s most effective food safety interventions ever!

"Many medical and scientific organizations recommend pasteurization for all milk consumed by humans; these include CDC, the Food and Drug Administration, the American Academy of Pediatrics, the American Veterinary Medical Association, the National Association of State Public Health Veterinarians, and others."

CDC - Raw Milk Questions and Answers - Food Safety


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## koshergrl

"
*Are there more outbreaks related to raw milk in states where it is legal to sell?*
Yes. States that allow the legal sale of raw milk for human consumption have more raw milk-related outbreaks of illness than states that do not allow raw milk to be sold legally."

CDC - Raw Milk Questions and Answers - Food Safety


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## gallantwarrior

koshergrl said:


> Yeah, I have common sense. I don't believe there's a government conspiracy to prevent us from drinking raw milk. The nature of milk as it is produced today makes raw milk a very, very risky venture. For kids.



Theoretically for children, old people, and anyone with compromised immune systems...are you aware that it is not recommended to feed infants honey, too?  Honey is, like milk, a very good medium for bacteria.  It is also one of Nature's best anti-bacterial agents.  Access to raw milk should be left up to the consumer, like many other things.  Whether they feed it to their children is their business. 
One of my raw milk customer purchased two herd shares right after their granddaughter was born because Mom was unable to produce enough milk herself.  They wanted raw milk for its natural nutritional properties, they wanted goat milk (raw) because they preferred goat milk.  The family goes through about two gallons a week and have never had a complaint.  The baby is almost two now and the healthiest, most adorable little girl you could hope to meet.  Oh, yeah, the 90-some-year- old granny drinks the stuff too.
I drink my own milk, my family drinks it, my customers drink it.  I would have more customers if I had more milk.  And that regardless of the stupid contracts everyone is forced to sign.


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## koshergrl

I did know that about honey.

I was raised on raw milk. I have no problem with people having cows and drinking raw milk, or even selling it to their friends. 

I do have a problem with people spreading lies about the safety of such practices, downplaying the risk, and pretending it's actually more healthy..when anybody with an iota of sense knows that milk-borne pathogens that are killed by pasteurization are gnarly and particularly dangerous for CHILDREN.

I don't care if you drink raw milk. I don't care if you feed it to your kids.

But don't LIE about how safe it is.


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## gallantwarrior

koshergrl said:


> Yeah, I have common sense. I don't believe there's a government conspiracy to prevent us from drinking raw milk. The nature of milk as it is produced today makes raw milk a very, very risky venture. For kids.



It should be the business of the people responsible for raising children as what those children are fed.  Government may regulate how some products are treated, but if an alternative is available, why should that be denied to anyone who wishes to use it?
I have some herd share customers who purchased two herd shares when their granddaughter was born.  The mom was unable to produce sufficient milk and they consider commercially available formulae and milk substitutes to be unacceptable.  They prefer goat milk.  Not only has their infant granddaughter been fed raw goat milk (she's almost two now), but the 90-some-year-old granny drinks it, too.  I could sell much more milk if people were able to simply come and pick it up, but the whole contract thing does put people off.  All they want is a gallon of milk, not a contractual obligation.  (Wonder how you'd like it if the local supermarket required you to sign a waiver every time you bought groceries?)
As far as implication of raw milk in foodborne illness outbreaks?  As soon as raw milk comes up, all other investigation ceases.  The agencies that track alleged raw milk outbreaks do not even inquire into outbreaks due to consumption of processed milk.  By-the-way, do you like peanut butter?
CDC - Apr 29 2009 Update - Salmonella Typhimurium Infections Linked to Peanut Butter
CDC - Salmonella Bredeney Infections Linked to Peanut Butter
Peanut almond and nut butters recalled - CNN.com
Salmonella Illnesses Prompt Peanut Butter Recall Food Poison Journal
A Bit e of Salmonella Peanut Butter History Lessons not learned Food Poison Journal


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## koshergrl

I know that peanut butter is dangerous. Perhaps you missed my (repeated) posts where I said I'm fine with raw milk being fed...I raised goats, I milked them, I have drunk raw milk till it came out of my ears, my kids have as well...we milked our own cows, and we bought from neighbors when we didn't have our own.

Again, I don't have a problem with people taking risks and drinking raw milk.

I do have a problem with farmers spreading lies about the safety of products they're pedaling as safe for children.


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## gallantwarrior

koshergrl said:


> I know that peanut butter is dangerous.
> 
> Again, I don't have a problem with people taking risks.
> 
> I do have a problem with marketeers spreading lies about the safety of products they're pedaling to children.



I'm not sure where you get your information.  I have not seen raw milk peddled to children.  I know a lot of people who have grown distrustful of the foodstuffs produced on a large scale and widely distributed.  Personally, I have become very aware of what is put into cans, bottles, and boxes and peddled as nutritional food (for health reasons).  Read the labels.  As for milk, anything that has to be "fortified" in any way has most likely had the original benefits stripped out of it through processing.  Do you know why commercially produced milk is so often "Vitamin D fortified"?


----------



## koshergrl

I get my information from this thread, where rawmilkmike or whatever his name is has stated repeatedly that there are no deaths attributed to raw milk consumption by the CDC (I disproved that), who has stated that drinking raw milk will help prevent allergies in children (I disproved that) and a variety of other ridiculous claims.

Perhaps you should read the thread, before you pooh-pooh my counter arguments and pretend that nobody said those things.


----------



## gallantwarrior

koshergrl said:


> I get my information from this thread, where rawmilkmike or whatever his name is has stated repeatedly that there are no deaths attributed to raw milk consumption by the CDC (I disproved that), who has stated that drinking raw milk will help prevent allergies in children (I disproved that) and a variety of other ridiculous claims.
> 
> Perhaps you should read the thread, before you pooh-pooh my counter arguments and pretend that nobody said those things.



I'm not pooh-poohing your arguments.  But I am equally aware that powerful forces are just as likely to disseminate bullshit lies about raw milk.  Any food substance can cause illness.  Most of the time, this results from poor processing, or poor care by the consumer.  There are by far more foodborne outbreaks that can be attributed to processed foods than raw.  Foodborne outbreaks resulting from consumption of locally grown and locally marketed food stuffs are far rarer.  The greatest majority of what rmm has posted is actually informative.
For me, the basic, bottom line is: government should drag their nasty noses out of our refrigerators and pantries.  The public has the responsibility to inform itself.  If the literature you have read convinces you that raw milk is unhealthy, by all means, don't drink it.  But if I decide I prefer raw to processed milk, I should have that choice available to me.


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## rawmilkmike

koshergrl said:


> gallantwarrior said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Flopper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Flopper said:
> 
> 
> 
> Between 1993 and 2006 more than 1500 people in the United States became sick from drinking raw milk or eating cheese made from raw milk. In addition, CDC reported that unpasteurized milk is 150 times more likely to cause food borne illness and results in 13 times more hospitalizations than illnesses involving pasteurized dairy products.
> 
> Whether raw milk is safe to drink depends on the health of the cows, the handling of the milk; the cleaning and sterilization of equipment, and storage time and temperature.  Pasteurized which removes over 99% of the bacteria significantly reduces the chance of becoming sick from contaminated milk.
> 
> Federal laws prevent the interstate sale of raw milk but many states allow sales within the state. The push, if you want to call it that to allow raw milk sales across the country comes from small dairy farms struggling to survive, health food addicts that believe in the magic properties of raw milk, and right wing nuts who want to abolish all food safety laws.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well, if people want to risk it, I don't think the government should have to stop them.  Who cares?  Let people drink contaminated poop milk.  They aren't hurting anyone else.  As long as the consumer is aware, I don't see a problem with it.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The problem is you can't tell whether the milk you buy in the store is contaminated or not. Even if you open the container you can't tell. Milk can have a high enough bacteria count to make you and your family sick and you will never know it till you're puking your guts out.  Milk doesn't have to be sour to be dangerous to drink.  The only way to protect yourself is to drink pasteurized milk.
> 
> I might agree with you if just the customer drank the milk.  Milk goes to institutions, food processors, restaurants, food banks, and your neighbors kids.  Thanks to pasteurization, illness from drinking milk is rare so people assume that milk in their glass is safe to drink.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I haven't seen anyone here advocate that all milk be raw, that pasteurized milk not be available for those who prefer it.  People who want to consume raw milk are interested in changing the draconian regulations that make it almost impossible in many places, or at least extremely inconvenient, to acquire raw milk.  And, enforcement of the anti-raw-milk regulations has reached the level of pogroms directed at the producers/sellers of raw milk to consumers.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> What I have seen is dangerous pro-raw milk propaganda that pooh-poohs the inherent risks, and proclaims benefits of raw milk that have not been established scientifically...in the face of all public health authorities who are BEGGING them to stop spreading bad information, and who are BEGGING parents to abstain from feeding their children raw milk.
Click to expand...

The dangers of raw milk have not been established scientifically. These are testimonials. So you can call us liars but you can't call it propaganda. You are the one “pooh-poohing”. Where is you science? “Public health authorities” work for us and they have a conflict of interest when it comes to our health. You are the one with the bad information. You haven't been able to explain any of the discrepancies in your unsubstantiated accusations, hyperbole, and out right lies. Why do we need to “established the benefits of raw milk scientifically”? Why can't we just try it and find out for ourselves? How long do you think it takes to find out if the “pro-raw milk hype is propaganda” or not? Avoiding raw milk does not prevent the average American from getting this deadly disease 4 times a year.


----------



## rawmilkmike

koshergrl said:


> I get my information from this thread, where rawmilkmike or whatever his name is has stated repeatedly that there are no deaths attributed to raw milk consumption by the CDC (I disproved that), who has stated that drinking raw milk will help prevent allergies in children (I disproved that) and a variety of other ridiculous claims.
> 
> Perhaps you should read the thread, before you pooh-pooh my counter arguments and pretend that nobody said those things.


*koshergrl,* Perhaps you should read the thread, You haven't disproved anything.


----------



## rawmilkmike

ChrisL said:


> rawmilkmike said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Flopper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rawmilkmike said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rawmilkmike said:
> 
> 
> 
> The only ones saying it is "contaminated poop milk" are it's competitors.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well if it's not regulated, you never know!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Pasteurized milk is regulated. How much do we know about it? I know far more about the raw milk I buy then anything else I eat. When raw milk is regulated and sold in a store I don't even know if it is raw. I don't know what kind of cow it comes from, what the cow eats, or how the cow is treated.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You don't how clean the dairy is and how healthy the  cows are or how long the milk has been stored and at what temperature.  You of course have the same problems with pasteurized milk with one big difference.  After milk has been pasteurized, almost all bacteria  originated at farm and in storage and transportation has been eliminated.  This provides a margin of error which is very important because milk is often not stored at the proper temperature and time period.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Pasteurized milk is regulated. How much do we know about it? There are a lot of steps after pasteurization. A family farm is much less toxic than a processing plant. Filling your own bottles right on the farm eliminates all those steps and all those exposures.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Well, we know that the facilities are inspected on a regular basis for cleanliness, etc.  I'm sure they occasionally take samples to test the milk too.  I believe those are some things they are SUPPOSED to be doing anyways.
Click to expand...

Pasteurized milk farms are inspected one or twice a year but do we know what they are inspected for. If we knew would we care? Things we do care about like what kind of cow, what kind of feed, and what they add to the milk, that we don't know. When raw milk is sold in stores do they test to make sure it's raw, nope.


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## rawmilkmike

koshergrl said:


> I know that peanut butter is dangerous. Perhaps you missed my (repeated) posts where I said I'm fine with raw milk being fed...I raised goats, I milked them, I have drunk raw milk till it came out of my ears, my kids have as well...we milked our own cows, and we bought from neighbors when we didn't have our own.
> 
> Again, I don't have a problem with people taking risks and drinking raw milk.
> 
> I do have a problem with farmers spreading lies about the safety of products they're pedaling as safe for children.


Rawmilkmike is not a farmer. If you and your kids drank raw milk for years then you must know these are not lies. How often did you and your kids get diarrhea?


----------



## gallantwarrior

rawmilkmike said:


> koshergrl said:
> 
> 
> 
> I know that peanut butter is dangerous. Perhaps you missed my (repeated) posts where I said I'm fine with raw milk being fed...I raised goats, I milked them, I have drunk raw milk till it came out of my ears, my kids have as well...we milked our own cows, and we bought from neighbors when we didn't have our own.
> 
> Again, I don't have a problem with people taking risks and drinking raw milk.
> 
> I do have a problem with farmers spreading lies about the safety of products they're pedaling as safe for children.
> 
> 
> 
> Rawmilkmike is not a farmer. If you and your kids drank raw milk for years then you must know these are not lies. How often did you and your kids get diarrhea?
Click to expand...


gallantwarrior is a dairy farmer, but I most definitely agree.  How did the human race _ever_ survive before government started telling us what to eat, and what not to eat?


----------



## ChrisL

gallantwarrior said:


> koshergrl said:
> 
> 
> 
> I know that peanut butter is dangerous.
> 
> Again, I don't have a problem with people taking risks.
> 
> I do have a problem with marketeers spreading lies about the safety of products they're pedaling to children.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not sure where you get your information.  I have not seen raw milk peddled to children.  I know a lot of people who have grown distrustful of the foodstuffs produced on a large scale and widely distributed.  Personally, I have become very aware of what is put into cans, bottles, and boxes and peddled as nutritional food (for health reasons).  Read the labels.  *As for milk, anything that has to be "fortified" in any way has most likely had the original benefits stripped out of it through processing.  Do you know why commercially produced milk is so often "Vitamin D fortified"*?
Click to expand...


Interesting!  You know, I've never really thought about it before.  I just always thought they were trying to make it healthier or something.


----------



## ChrisL

rawmilkmike said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rawmilkmike said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Flopper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rawmilkmike said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well if it's not regulated, you never know!
> 
> 
> 
> Pasteurized milk is regulated. How much do we know about it? I know far more about the raw milk I buy then anything else I eat. When raw milk is regulated and sold in a store I don't even know if it is raw. I don't know what kind of cow it comes from, what the cow eats, or how the cow is treated.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You don't how clean the dairy is and how healthy the  cows are or how long the milk has been stored and at what temperature.  You of course have the same problems with pasteurized milk with one big difference.  After milk has been pasteurized, almost all bacteria  originated at farm and in storage and transportation has been eliminated.  This provides a margin of error which is very important because milk is often not stored at the proper temperature and time period.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Pasteurized milk is regulated. How much do we know about it? There are a lot of steps after pasteurization. A family farm is much less toxic than a processing plant. Filling your own bottles right on the farm eliminates all those steps and all those exposures.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Well, we know that the facilities are inspected on a regular basis for cleanliness, etc.  I'm sure they occasionally take samples to test the milk too.  I believe those are some things they are SUPPOSED to be doing anyways.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Pasteurized milk farms are inspected one or twice a year but do we know what they are inspected for. If we knew would we care? Things we do care about like what kind of cow, what kind of feed, and what they add to the milk, that we don't know. When raw milk is sold in stores do they test to make sure it's raw, nope.
Click to expand...


I am also very interested in the cleanliness of the facilities and equipment used, etc.


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## gallantwarrior

ChrisL said:


> gallantwarrior said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> koshergrl said:
> 
> 
> 
> I know that peanut butter is dangerous.
> 
> Again, I don't have a problem with people taking risks.
> 
> I do have a problem with marketeers spreading lies about the safety of products they're pedaling to children.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not sure where you get your information.  I have not seen raw milk peddled to children.  I know a lot of people who have grown distrustful of the foodstuffs produced on a large scale and widely distributed.  Personally, I have become very aware of what is put into cans, bottles, and boxes and peddled as nutritional food (for health reasons).  Read the labels.  *As for milk, anything that has to be "fortified" in any way has most likely had the original benefits stripped out of it through processing.  Do you know why commercially produced milk is so often "Vitamin D fortified"*?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Interesting!  You know, I've never really thought about it before.  I just always thought they were trying to make it healthier or something.
Click to expand...


Interested in a bit of history?  Vitamin D comes from the sun.  Dairy animals that graze on grass and other natural sources ingest natural Vitamin D.  (Vitamin D comes from sunshine.)  Factory farmed animals are denied access to pastures (grass) where they have access to natural vitamin D.  Factory farmed milk comes from animals that are denied access to natural vitamin D sources.  Further processing removes not only bacteria (both "good" and "bad") but damages natural nutritional elements, including vitamin D.  Therefore, processed milk produced by factory dairies is devoid of vitamin D and must be "fortified" by reintroducing artificial vitamins into the milk.


----------



## rawmilkmike

koshergrl said:


> rawmilkmike said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> koshergrl said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Flopper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Indofred said:
> 
> 
> 
> That's what they did in the UK.
> Different types had different coloured caps.
> The red top became very unpopular and hardly sold.
> 
> 
> 
> Most states that allow raw milk to be sold require it to be labeled as such.
> The federal law outlawing raw milk only applies to interstate sales. In state sales are controlled by state laws. Large dairy farms that ship across state lines would pasteurize with or without the federal law because they need to be able to store milk for longer periods of time plus many states require that milk be pasteurized.
> 
> The push to allow raw milk sales comes from small dairy farms who want to avoid the expense of pasteurizing and want to expand their market across state lines.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Again, I have to bring up cigarettes.  Doesn't that cross your mind at all?  Why is selling cigarettes legal, but selling raw MILK is illegal?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Probably because babies are hardly ever killed outright when they're forced to smoke. Though it certainly is illegal for underaged persons to smoke...perhaps we should just make it illegal to feed the underaged raw milk. Let the adult idiots take their chances.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The CDC hasn't documented any deaths associated with raw fluid milk consumption. And parents don't want their kids smoking.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The CDC says:
> 
> "Raw milk can carry harmful bacteria and other germs that can make you very sick or kill you. While it is possible to get foodborne illnesses from many different foods, raw milk is one of the riskiest of all.
> 
> "Getting sick from raw milk can mean many days of diarrhea, stomach cramping, and vomiting. Less commonly, it can mean kidney failure, paralysis, chronic disorders, and even death."
> 
> "From 1998 through 2011, 148 outbreaks due to consumption of raw milk or raw milk products were reported to CDC. These resulted in 2,384 illnesses, 284 hospitalizations, and 2 deaths. Most of these illnesses were caused by _Escherichia coli_, _Campylobacter_, _Salmonella, or Listeria_. It is important to note that a substantial proportion of the raw milk-associated disease burden falls on children; among the 104 outbreaks from 1998-2011 with information on the patients’ ages available, 82% involved at least one person younger than 20 years old.
> Because not all cases of foodborne illness are recognized and reported, the actual number of illnesses associated with raw milk likely is greater."
> 
> CDC - Raw Milk Questions and Answers - Food Safety
Click to expand...

First, many consumers drink raw milk for their health. That makes the CDC a competitor. So this is kind of like asking a barber if you need a haircut.

The first two are not official statements. They have nothing to back them up. This is a resent tactic.

The last one is there normal modus operandi. It says “raw milk or raw milk products”. Pasteurized milk and cheese are raw milk products. The two deaths were associated with cheese not raw fluid milk consumption.

It's great that you used this one because it explains what is meant by “a substantial proportion of the raw milk-associated disease burden falls on children”.

“among 104 outbreaks with information on the patients’ ages available” What about the ones where the information on the patients’ ages was unavailable?

“82% of the outbreaks involved at least one person younger than 20 years old.” Raw milk outbreaks average 20 cases per outbreak. Wouldn't you expect all of the outbreaks to have more than one person younger than 20 years old? Pasteurized milk averages 1,645 cases per outbreak. And would you call a 19 year old a child?

Because not all cases of foodborne illness are recognized and reported, the actual number of illnesses associated with PASTEURIZE milk likely is greater."


----------



## ChrisL

gallantwarrior said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> gallantwarrior said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> koshergrl said:
> 
> 
> 
> I know that peanut butter is dangerous.
> 
> Again, I don't have a problem with people taking risks.
> 
> I do have a problem with marketeers spreading lies about the safety of products they're pedaling to children.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not sure where you get your information.  I have not seen raw milk peddled to children.  I know a lot of people who have grown distrustful of the foodstuffs produced on a large scale and widely distributed.  Personally, I have become very aware of what is put into cans, bottles, and boxes and peddled as nutritional food (for health reasons).  Read the labels.  *As for milk, anything that has to be "fortified" in any way has most likely had the original benefits stripped out of it through processing.  Do you know why commercially produced milk is so often "Vitamin D fortified"*?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Interesting!  You know, I've never really thought about it before.  I just always thought they were trying to make it healthier or something.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Interested in a bit of history?  Vitamin D comes from the sun.  Dairy animals that graze on grass and other natural sources ingest natural Vitamin D.  (Vitamin D comes from sunshine.)  Factory farmed animals are denied access to pastures (grass) where they have access to natural vitamin D.  Factory farmed milk comes from animals that are denied access to natural vitamin D sources.  Further processing removes not only bacteria (both "good" and "bad") but damages natural nutritional elements, including vitamin D.  Therefore, processed milk produced by factory dairies is devoid of vitamin D and must be "fortified" by reintroducing artificial vitamins into the milk.
Click to expand...


Yes, that makes good sense.  I just never really gave it much thought before.  Lol!  I'm not a farm raised person obviously.


----------



## rawmilkmike

ChrisL said:


> rawmilkmike said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rawmilkmike said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Flopper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rawmilkmike said:
> 
> 
> 
> Pasteurized milk is regulated. How much do we know about it? I know far more about the raw milk I buy then anything else I eat. When raw milk is regulated and sold in a store I don't even know if it is raw. I don't know what kind of cow it comes from, what the cow eats, or how the cow is treated.
> 
> 
> 
> You don't how clean the dairy is and how healthy the  cows are or how long the milk has been stored and at what temperature.  You of course have the same problems with pasteurized milk with one big difference.  After milk has been pasteurized, almost all bacteria  originated at farm and in storage and transportation has been eliminated.  This provides a margin of error which is very important because milk is often not stored at the proper temperature and time period.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Pasteurized milk is regulated. How much do we know about it? There are a lot of steps after pasteurization. A family farm is much less toxic than a processing plant. Filling your own bottles right on the farm eliminates all those steps and all those exposures.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Well, we know that the facilities are inspected on a regular basis for cleanliness, etc.  I'm sure they occasionally take samples to test the milk too.  I believe those are some things they are SUPPOSED to be doing anyways.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Pasteurized milk farms are inspected one or twice a year but do we know what they are inspected for. If we knew would we care? Things we do care about like what kind of cow, what kind of feed, and what they add to the milk, that we don't know. When raw milk is sold in stores do they test to make sure it's raw, nope.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I am also very interested in the cleanliness of the facilities and equipment used, etc.
Click to expand...

But do we know what they are inspected for? You can see the cleanliness of the facilities and equipment used when you go to pick up your raw milk. Bacteria isn't necessarily the worst type of contamination. What about the 5 second rule?


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## rawmilkmike

gallantwarrior said:


> rawmilkmike said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> koshergrl said:
> 
> 
> 
> I know that peanut butter is dangerous. Perhaps you missed my (repeated) posts where I said I'm fine with raw milk being fed...I raised goats, I milked them, I have drunk raw milk till it came out of my ears, my kids have as well...we milked our own cows, and we bought from neighbors when we didn't have our own.
> 
> Again, I don't have a problem with people taking risks and drinking raw milk.
> 
> I do have a problem with farmers spreading lies about the safety of products they're pedaling as safe for children.
> 
> 
> 
> Rawmilkmike is not a farmer. If you and your kids drank raw milk for years then you must know these are not lies. How often did you and your kids get diarrhea?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> gallantwarrior is a dairy farmer, but I most definitely agree.  How did the human race _ever_ survive before government started telling us what to eat, and what not to eat?
Click to expand...

Yes, but gallantwarrior isn't propagandizing and pooh-poohing. You know, I think the government has had a lot to say about what we eat for a long time. That's why people in many cities have been sick for a long time.


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## rawmilkmike

koshergrl said:


> I did know that about honey.
> 
> I was raised on raw milk. I have no problem with people having cows and drinking raw milk, or even selling it to their friends.
> 
> I do have a problem with people spreading lies about the safety of such practices, downplaying the risk, and pretending it's actually more healthy..when anybody with an iota of sense knows that milk-borne pathogens that are killed by pasteurization are gnarly and particularly dangerous for CHILDREN.
> 
> I don't care if you drink raw milk. I don't care if you feed it to your kids.
> 
> But don't LIE about how safe it is.


It's easy for someone raised on raw milk to take their good health for granted. People who switch to raw milk know the difference. Did you get diarrhea 4 times a year like the average American who drinks pasteurized milk?

Oh, you “have no problem with people having cows and drinking raw milk, or even selling it to their friends.”? You just don't want those no good city slickers getting their hands on it.

People who have never drank raw milk can look up your so called “gnarly milk-borne pathogens” that are supposedly “killed by pasteurization” and see that they are not “gnarly” and are not “killed by pasteurization”.

Why would you want others to suffer the “gnarly” illnesses you and your children did? Why would anyone want to drink raw milk if it were dangerous and had no benefit? Why would anyone continue drinking it if it was not helping them and it was giving them diarrhea more than 4 times a year. It's not like it's alcohol or chocolate milk. It's seasonal. Sometimes it doesn't even taste as good as pasteurized milk.


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## rawmilkmike

koshergrl said:


> Yeah, I have common sense. I don't believe there's a government conspiracy to prevent us from drinking raw milk. The nature of milk as it is produced today makes raw milk a very, very risky venture. For kids.


You admit the government doesn’t want us drinking raw milk. How is that not a conspiracy? We don't pay them to tell us what to eat. Big pharma does. Your sense is very common though. Maybe we should go back to milking by hand.

“82% of the outbreaks involved at least one person younger than 20 years old.” Raw milk outbreaks average 20 cases per outbreak. Is this what you mean by “a very, very risky venture. For kids.”?


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## rawmilkmike

koshergrl said:


> "
> *Are there more outbreaks related to raw milk in states where it is legal to sell?*
> Yes. States that allow the legal sale of raw milk for human consumption have more raw milk-related outbreaks of illness than states that do not allow raw milk to be sold legally."
> 
> CDC - Raw Milk Questions and Answers - Food Safety


Making raw milk legal, as they say, does not make it any easier to obtain. Raw milk is supposedly legal in California but most of their raw milk is still sold through cow shares.


----------



## rawmilkmike

gallantwarrior said:


> koshergrl said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, I have common sense. I don't believe there's a government conspiracy to prevent us from drinking raw milk. The nature of milk as it is produced today makes raw milk a very, very risky venture. For kids.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Theoretically for children, old people, and anyone with compromised immune systems...are you aware that it is not recommended to feed infants honey, too?  Honey is, like milk, a very good medium for bacteria.  It is also one of Nature's best anti-bacterial agents.  Access to raw milk should be left up to the consumer, like many other things.  Whether they feed it to their children is their business.
> One of my raw milk customer purchased two herd shares right after their granddaughter was born because Mom was unable to produce enough milk herself.  They wanted raw milk for its natural nutritional properties, they wanted goat milk (raw) because they preferred goat milk.  The family goes through about two gallons a week and have never had a complaint.  The baby is almost two now and the healthiest, most adorable little girl you could hope to meet.  Oh, yeah, the 90-some-year- old granny drinks the stuff too.
> I drink my own milk, my family drinks it, my customers drink it.  I would have more customers if I had more milk.  And that regardless of the stupid contracts everyone is forced to sign.
Click to expand...

Actually honey is even more stable than raw milk. They've found honey from Egyptian times. Sterilized milk is they stuff used as a growth medium.


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## rawmilkmike

koshergrl said:


> "There are no health benefits from drinking raw milk that cannot be obtained from drinking pasteurized milk that is free of disease-causing bacteria. The process of pasteurization of milk has never been found to be the cause of chronic diseases, allergies, or developmental or behavioral problems."
> 
> CDC - Raw Milk Questions and Answers - Food Safety


You do realize that you have not backed up any of your previous accusations yet and you don't responded when we show your accusations to be false. You just move on and change the subject.

What the CDC actually says is that the testimonials of millions of American raw milk consumers are not published in their journals and they don't recognize the studies that show some of the “health benefits of drinking raw milk” and they completely ignore the studies that show pasteurized milk is the “cause of chronic diseases, allergies, developmental and behavioral problems.” and they admit that pasteurized milk is not free of so called disease-causing bacteria. Their own data shows that.

The CDC is famous for saying there is no evidence but they are the ones with the burden of proof. They are the ones trying to tell people what to eat. They have the resources. They could easily do a study to prove their theories. They don't because they don't want to know the answer. We had more than enough evidence to try raw milk. Once we did we knew the CDC was being disingenuous.


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## koshergrl

Of course I have. I backed up everything. And you haven't shown anything that I said to be false. In fact, you've been caught outright in a couple of lies...#1, that raw milk wards off allergies, and #2, that the CDC had no reported deaths attributed to raw milk consumption.

What else would you like me to back up?


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## koshergrl

So when you sell milk, do you lie to your customers about, say, the date you milked it? Or the temps at which you keep it?


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## rawmilkmike

koshergrl said:


> Of course I have. I backed up everything. And you haven't shown anything that I said to be false. In fact, you've been caught outright in a couple of lies...#1, that raw milk wards off allergies, and #2, that the CDC had no reported deaths attributed to raw milk consumption.
> 
> What else would you like me to back up?


Copy pasted directly from your post: “148 outbreaks due to consumption of raw milk or raw milk products were reported to CDC. These resulted in 2,384 illnesses, 284 hospitalizations, and 2 deaths.” 


It says “raw milk or raw milk products” not “raw milk”. OR OR OR!!! So which is it milk OR cheese?


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## rawmilkmike

koshergrl said:


> So when you sell milk, do you lie to your customers about, say, the date you milked it? Or the temps at which you keep it?


That would be a silly thing to lie about.


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## rawmilkmike

koshergrl said:


> Of course I have. I backed up everything. And you haven't shown anything that I said to be false. In fact, you've been caught outright in a couple of lies...#1, that raw milk wards off allergies, and #2, that the CDC had no reported deaths attributed to raw milk consumption.
> 
> What else would you like me to back up?


You haven't explained why we need to prove our claims even if we were selling raw milk which I am not. If my claims are false it's up to you to prove that they are. Most pharmaceuticals are not proven to work every time and many have known side effects that always accompany their use. Regardless how credible you say they are, we have studies and millions of testimonials demonstrating raw milk's safety and benefit and all the CDC can say is raw milk could theoretically contain bacteria that some say may cause diarrhea in some people some of the time. The same diarrhea that the average American gets 4 times a year.


----------



## SixFoot

martybegan said:


> konradv said:
> 
> 
> 
> Here's a little something to think about for those who keep telling us the government should stay out of our business and allow free sale of raw milk.
> 
> 45 in Utah have campylobacteriosis from raw milk - CNN.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How about the government just require raw milk to be LABELLED as raw milk, and let the customer decide?
Click to expand...


Because that would be a form of freedom.


----------



## SixFoot

mdk said:


> I know the consequences of my actions. I don't need the government to make these choices for me. I am of sound mind and I am very capable making these decisions on my own without the help of the state.



That's crazy talk. Just what the hell do you know about your own body?


----------



## mdk

SixFoot said:


> mdk said:
> 
> 
> 
> I know the consequences of my actions. I don't need the government to make these choices for me. I am of sound mind and I am very capable making these decisions on my own without the help of the state.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That's crazy talk. Just what the hell do you know about your own body?
Click to expand...


But it's so much easier having the government make the decisions for us. Besides, thinking causes wrinkles.


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## SixFoot

mdk said:


> SixFoot said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> mdk said:
> 
> 
> 
> I know the consequences of my actions. I don't need the government to make these choices for me. I am of sound mind and I am very capable making these decisions on my own without the help of the state.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That's crazy talk. Just what the hell do you know about your own body?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> But it's so much easier having the government make the decisions for us. Besides, thinking causes wrinkles.
Click to expand...


Tell me about it.


----------



## ChrisL

koshergrl said:


> So when you sell milk, do you lie to your customers about, say, the date you milked it? Or the temps at which you keep it?



Why be so adamant to stop people from making their own choices?  If they want to take the risk to their health and drink it, then let them.  We let people smoke cigarettes and drink alcohol, don't we?  

There has to be another reason why the government does not want to legalize this product, and it MUST have something to do with money.


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## rawmilkmike

koshergrl said:


> So when you sell milk, do you lie to your customers about, say, the date you milked it? Or the temps at which you keep it?


How much are you paid for trolling this site?


----------

