# Green energy Bottleneck



## Manonthestreet

According to the analysis, turbines and solar panels might be skyrocketing a bit too much. Demand for some metals like neodymium and indium could grow by more than a dozen times by 2050, and there simply might not be enough supply to power the green revolution.v





We Might Not Have Enough Materials for All the Solar Panels and Wind Turbines We Need

I would say you have about a decade before prices start to explode at which point "free energy" meme really starts to bite


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## Crepitus

New materials will come on the scene, they always do.


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## Manonthestreet

Crepitus said:


> New materials will come on the scene, they always do.


Been hearing about graphene batts for yrs.....still no closer.


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## Crepitus

Manonthestreet said:


> Crepitus said:
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> New materials will come on the scene, they always do.
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> 
> Been hearing about graphene batts for yrs.....still no closer.
Click to expand...

How long did it take to develop lithium batteries?  Or neodymium magnets?

Decades.


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## westwall

Crepitus said:


> Manonthestreet said:
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> Crepitus said:
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> New materials will come on the scene, they always do.
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> Been hearing about graphene batts for yrs.....still no closer.
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> Click to expand...
> 
> How long did it take to develop lithium batteries?  Or neodymium magnets?
> 
> Decades.
Click to expand...






Yup, and solar modules are little better than the ones I bought and installed 30 years ago.  Sad really, when you think about it.


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## Pilot1

I am waiting for Di-Lithium Crystals.  It's coming.


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## HenryBHough

If alchemists could change petroleum molecules into those rare earths liberals would still try to prevent drilling.  As well as to outlaw alchemy.

Suicidal.


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## westwall

Pilot1 said:


> I am waiting for Di-Lithium Crystals.  It's coming.







They must if only because the name is so cool!


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## Tax Man

As I have my panels who cares?


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## Manonthestreet

Crepitus said:


> New materials will come on the scene, they always do.





Crepitus said:


> Manonthestreet said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Crepitus said:
> 
> 
> 
> New materials will come on the scene, they always do.
> 
> 
> 
> Been hearing about graphene batts for yrs.....still no closer.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> How long did it take to develop lithium batteries?  Or neodymium magnets?
> 
> Decades.
Click to expand...

and you only have about 1 before serious probs hit


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## Crepitus

westwall said:


> Crepitus said:
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> Manonthestreet said:
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> Crepitus said:
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> New materials will come on the scene, they always do.
> 
> 
> 
> Been hearing about graphene batts for yrs.....still no closer.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> How long did it take to develop lithium batteries?  Or neodymium magnets?
> 
> Decades.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yup, and solar modules are little better than the ones I bought and installed 30 years ago.  Sad really, when you think about it.
Click to expand...

Not true actually
  Your old panels are in the 15-20% efficiency range while.they are experimenting with panels that get into the middle 40s.


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## westwall

Crepitus said:


> westwall said:
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> Crepitus said:
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> Manonthestreet said:
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> Crepitus said:
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> New materials will come on the scene, they always do.
> 
> 
> 
> Been hearing about graphene batts for yrs.....still no closer.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> How long did it take to develop lithium batteries?  Or neodymium magnets?
> 
> Decades.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yup, and solar modules are little better than the ones I bought and installed 30 years ago.  Sad really, when you think about it.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Not true actually
> Your old panels are in the 15-20% efficiency range while.they are experimenting with panels that get into the middle 40s.
Click to expand...







Wrong.  The theoretical maximum efficiency for solar modules is 33% as calculated by Shockley and Queisser.  That number has not risen in decades.  The research into tandem solar cells hopes to raise that up to their theoretical maximum of around 42% (49% was the number for multiple cells) but they have come nowhere near that.  The reality is my modules were doing 18% when i installed them, and they are doing 13% now.  The last time I checked into it seriously the maximum efficiency obtained was by an Australian University at 25%.

Color me unimpressed.


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## Crepitus

westwall said:


> Crepitus said:
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> westwall said:
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> Crepitus said:
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> Manonthestreet said:
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> Crepitus said:
> 
> 
> 
> New materials will come on the scene, they always do.
> 
> 
> 
> Been hearing about graphene batts for yrs.....still no closer.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> How long did it take to develop lithium batteries?  Or neodymium magnets?
> 
> Decades.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yup, and solar modules are little better than the ones I bought and installed 30 years ago.  Sad really, when you think about it.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Not true actually
> Your old panels are in the 15-20% efficiency range while.they are experimenting with panels that get into the middle 40s.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wrong.  The theoretical maximum efficiency for solar modules is 33% as calculated by Shockley and Queisser.  That number has not risen in decades.  The research into tandem solar cells hopes to raise that up to their theoretical maximum of around 42% (49% was the number for multiple cells) but they have come nowhere near that.  The reality is my modules were doing 18% when i installed them, and they are doing 13% now.  The last time I checked into it seriously the maximum efficiency obtained was by an Australian University at 25%.
> 
> Color me unimpressed.
Click to expand...

Read the link kid.


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## Mikeoxenormous

Manonthestreet said:


> According to the analysis, turbines and solar panels might be skyrocketing a bit too much. Demand for some metals like neodymium and indium could grow by more than a dozen times by 2050, and there simply might not be enough supply to power the green revolution.v
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We Might Not Have Enough Materials for All the Solar Panels and Wind Turbines We Need
> 
> I would say you have about a decade before prices start to explode at which point "free energy" meme really starts to bite


One thing you might look into is that solar panels need a lot of silver..

https://seekingalpha.com/article/40...r-world-even-solar-power-efficiency-quadruple


> It is estimated that it currently takes about 20 grams of silver to build an average solar panel. The average size of a solar panel is about 1.8 square meters. Given that there are 1,000,000 square meters in a square kilometer, it would take about 11.1 million grams, or 11.1 tons of silver to cover a square kilometer with solar panels. Given estimates that it would take covering a landmass the size of Spain with solar panels in order to meet all our energy needs, we should multiply that 11.1 ton figure by 506,000 square kilometers, which is the size of Spain.


 I have over 1000 ounces of silver.  First is that is tarnishes, that is it dissolves away and cannot be recuperated.   Eventually Silver will become rarer than gold, and the flip in price will come.  Might not in my lifetime but could in my children's lifetimes.


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## Old Rocks

A massive, 'semi-infinite' trove of rare-earth metals has been found in Japan

Researchers have found hundreds of years' worth of critical rare-earth metals beneath Japanese waters — enough to supply to the world on a "semi-infinite basis," according to a study published on Tuesday.




Screenshot of Scientific Reports
The location of the seabed where a large amount of rare-earth metals is found.

*Is there a problem?*


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## Manonthestreet

Exclusive: Tesla expects global shortage of electric vehicle battery minerals - sources - Reuters


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## Pilot1

Manonthestreet said:


> Exclusive: Tesla expects global shortage of electric vehicle battery minerals - sources - Reuters



Maybe Tesla should start making Internal Combustion Engine cars that run on a readily available and inexpensive fuel, gasoline.


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## Manonthestreet

Funny thing is libs have been at forefront of trying to close mines and keep any new ones from opening.


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## elektra

Green Energy, the Science of the smart? Let us look at the advances. 

1st generation Wind Turbines, around 70 feet tall.
Latest design, 1500 feet tall! 

Now that is science, wind turbines fail by the tens of thousands. The solution, make them bigger! Such great thinking of the left. They are real geniuses.


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## Tax Man

elektra said:


> Green Energy, the Science of the smart? Let us look at the advances.
> 
> 1st generation Wind Turbines, around 70 feet tall.
> Latest design, 1500 feet tall!
> 
> Now that is science, wind turbines fail by the tens of thousands. The solution, make them bigger! Such great thinking of the left. They are real geniuses.
> 
> View attachment 264334


I find it ironic you live in California and know so little about turbines. Here in the San Francisco area we have thousands of wind turbines and very few fail! There is a newer type of wind turbine that does not have propeller blades but a simple helix.


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## Tax Man

My solar system is working just fine.


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## elektra

Tax Man said:


> I find it ironic you live in California and know so little about turbines. Here in the San Francisco area we have thousands of wind turbines and very few fail! There is a newer type of wind turbine that does not have propeller blades but a simple helix.


 In San Francisco you have zero wind turbines. But you said area, right? In San Francisco county you have no Wind Turbines!


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## elektra

Tax Man said:


> My solar system is working just fine.


Prove it


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## elektra

14,000 wind turbines, failed, left to rot, torn down, Altamont pass, California.


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## daveman

Tax Man said:


> elektra said:
> 
> 
> 
> Green Energy, the Science of the smart? Let us look at the advances.
> 
> 1st generation Wind Turbines, around 70 feet tall.
> Latest design, 1500 feet tall!
> 
> Now that is science, wind turbines fail by the tens of thousands. The solution, make them bigger! Such great thinking of the left. They are real geniuses.
> 
> View attachment 264334
> 
> 
> 
> I find it ironic you live in California and know so little about turbines. Here in the San Francisco area we have thousands of wind turbines and very few fail! There is a newer type of wind turbine that does not have propeller blades but a simple helix.
Click to expand...

The industry doesn't have much optimism for vertical-axis turbines, including the helix design.


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## westwall

Tax Man said:


> elektra said:
> 
> 
> 
> Green Energy, the Science of the smart? Let us look at the advances.
> 
> 1st generation Wind Turbines, around 70 feet tall.
> Latest design, 1500 feet tall!
> 
> Now that is science, wind turbines fail by the tens of thousands. The solution, make them bigger! Such great thinking of the left. They are real geniuses.
> 
> View attachment 264334
> 
> 
> 
> I find it ironic you live in California and know so little about turbines. Here in the San Francisco area we have thousands of wind turbines and very few fail! There is a newer type of wind turbine that does not have propeller blades but a simple helix.
Click to expand...





The only person demonstrating ignorance is you.  When is the last time you visited the Altamont?  

Or have you ever even seen the dozens of windmills sitting silent?

That's not including the ones that have caught fire and collapsed.


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## HenryBHough

Last time I drove through Altamont Pass I counted more failed windmills than active ones.  By "failed" I don't mean they weren't in use; I only counted as "failed" those with missing or obviously damaged blades. I won't do that again.  To many failures to count - distracting on a somewhat difficult road.


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