# Why American children are falling behind



## Big_D

Anyone knows that the children in this nation are far behind our European counterparts, but who is to blame.  I know that I am not the first to say this but the teachers and their unions are to blame.  Now, I'm aware that the students need to take accountability for their own success but I am sure anyone reading this can thing of a teacher in their past that made such an impression on them that when they took their class they gave 100%.  Also, I know that a lot of teachers do not get paid well but I doubt simply increasing their pay will automatically force them to do a better job and the statistics below will show that a higher turnover is needed to ensure better grades.  



> "The research shows that kids who have two, three, four strong teachers in a row will eventually excel, no matter what their background, while kids who have even two weak teachers in a row will never recover," says Kati Haycock of the Education Trust and coauthor of the 2006 study



Why We Must Fire Bad Teachers - Newsweek.com

When I was in high school, one of my teacher admitted to making $70,000 and he showed us a movie for the entire duration of the class at LEAST once a week.  I am not exaggerating.  He would show us a movie every Friday and then it was not unusual for him to show us another one or two time more throughout the week.  What is sad, is that he was not the only one.  I can think of numerous teachers at my high school that show us movies, give us busy work, tell us to read out of our text books, and flat out not teach.  As a freshman, one teacher did such a crummy job that in one quarter, the class average was a 64% and at my school a 60% was the absolute lowest a student could obtain and still pass.  Another student and I had an A in that quarter so I would like to know how many people failed to bring the class average so far down.  This teacher was a really nice guy but it is completely absurd that someone can do so poorly and still keep their job.  What is even more pathetic is that my high school is continually ranked one of the top 1,000 in the nation.  If my high school was one of the best in the nation, I would really hate to see what is happening at the rest of them.  

Here is a couple quotes from two newsweek articles about the subject:



> An obvious example: the teachers' unions have fought for protections in contracts and in state laws that make it virtually impossible to get bad teachers out of the classroom. On average it takes two years, $200,000 and 15 percent of the principal's time to get one bad teacher out of the classroom. As a result, principals don't even try.



Are Teachers' Unions the Problem or the Solution? - Newsweek.com



> In New York City in 2008, three out of 30,000 tenured teachers were dismissed for cause. The statistics are just as eye-popping in other cities. The percentage of teachers dismissed for poor performance in Chicago between 2005 and 2008 (the most recent figures available) was 0.1 percent. In Akron, Ohio, zero percent. In Toledo, 0.01 percent. In Denver, zero percent. In no other socially significant profession are the workers so insulated from accountability.



Why We Must Fire Bad Teachers - Newsweek.com



> The Indianapolis Star reported how Lawrence Township schools had quietly laid offwith generous cash settlements and secrecy agreementsa teacher accused of sexually assaulting a student; another accused of touching students and taking photos of female students; another accused of kissing a high-school student; and a fourth with a 20-year history of complaints about injuring and harassing students, including a 1992 rape allegation. At the time the story ran last summer, *all four teachers still held active teaching licenses*.



Why We Must Fire Bad Teachers - Newsweek.com


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## thomas78

This comes as a shock to me because I'd think US children were one of the brightest groups internationally (I'm not American).


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## California Girl

thomas78 said:


> This comes as a shock to me because I'd think US children were one of the brightest groups internationally (I'm not American).



Only those who don't attend public schools.


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## chanel

28 percent of my district is classified special ed. Do foreign countries include the handicapped in their stats? Just sayin...


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## Big_D

In hindsight, I shouldn't have named this thread what I did.  I do not mean to imply that the teachers are the only problem with US schools.


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## random3434

chanel said:


> 28 percent of my district is classified special ed. Do foreign countries include the handicapped in their stats? Just sayin...



everything is your fault chanel, didn't you know?


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## blu

I think parent's are the biggest problem. between libraries and the internet there is nothing stopping you from teaching your kid as much as you want. my stepson is in 2nd grade now but was rated at reading above a 5th grade level and will soon be starting algebra with me. we do an hour every night beyond his homework in math, reading, and science.  he also reads on his own everyday. don't blame the schools, blame the parents.


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## Dr Grump

chanel said:


> 28 percent of my district is classified special ed. Do foreign countries include the handicapped in their stats? Just sayin...



???? How do they define handicapped? 28 percent of the district? Does America have special districts where handicapped kids go? That seems unusually high......


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## Mr. H.

blu said:


> I think parent's are the biggest problem. between libraries and the internet there is nothing stopping you from teaching your kid as much as you want. my stepson is in 2nd grade now but was rated at reading above a 5th grade level and will soon be starting algebra with me. we do an hour every night beyond his homework in math, reading, and science.  he also reads on his own everyday. don't blame the schools, blame the parents.



Roger that.


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## antagon

California Girl said:


> thomas78 said:
> 
> 
> 
> This comes as a shock to me because I'd think US children were one of the brightest groups internationally (I'm not American).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Only those who don't attend public schools.
Click to expand...

damn.


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## xsited1

Big_D said:


> Why American children are falling behind



Just remove minority students from the overall statistics and America is #1.


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## antagon

xsited1 said:


> Big_D said:
> 
> 
> 
> Why American children are falling behind
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Just remove minority students from the overall statistics and America is #1.
Click to expand...

too many stupid, delinquent whities out there.  you'd be disappointed.


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## xsited1

antagon said:


> xsited1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Big_D said:
> 
> 
> 
> Why American children are falling behind
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Just remove minority students from the overall statistics and America is #1.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> too many stupid, delinquent whities out there.  you'd be disappointed.
Click to expand...


Sorry, but you'd be wrong.  Check out scores by race:

National Statistics on Education and Equity Issues, By Race and Ethnicity
Fast Facts

In Little Rock, there are racist blacks running the school system.  They even admit it.  All the good teachers have either left the city or teach in private schools.  Even blacks who want a good education send their kids to private schools.  (I know plenty.)

Most European countries are much more homogeneous race-wise than the US.


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## Annie

thomas78 said:


> This comes as a shock to me because I'd think US children were one of the brightest groups internationally (I'm not American).



For a long time, American children have lagged, especially in math and science. Interestingly enough, up to recently those in universities manage to use creativity across disciplines to excel after graduation. Add to that those that never step inside a university and go onto join the entrepreneurial markets and succeed beyond all projections of teachers and parents. 

That history is changing though. It's much easier to fail and survive.


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## antagon

xsited1 said:


> antagon said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> xsited1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Just remove minority students from the overall statistics and America is #1.
> 
> 
> 
> too many stupid, delinquent whities out there.  you'd be disappointed.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Sorry, but you'd be wrong.  Check out scores by race:
> 
> National Statistics on Education and Equity Issues, By Race and Ethnicity
> Fast Facts
> 
> In Little Rock, there are racist blacks running the school system.  They even admit it.  All the good teachers have either left the city or teach in private schools.  Even blacks who want a good education send their kids to private schools.  (I know plenty.)
> 
> Most European countries are much more homogeneous race-wise than the US.
Click to expand...


that white kids out-stat most minorities most of the time is different than presuming they'll propel the country to #1 without the 'burden' of minorities.  that's the disappointing stretch youve made.

our history educating minorities plays a role you've also underestimated.  europe's got a different history with some different results, despite your homogeneity..

article


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## rdean

It's not the teachers, it's the parents.


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## PoliticalChic

blu said:


> I think parent's are the biggest problem. between libraries and the internet there is nothing stopping you from teaching your kid as much as you want. my stepson is in 2nd grade now but was rated at reading above a 5th grade level and will soon be starting algebra with me. we do an hour every night beyond his homework in math, reading, and science.  he also reads on his own everyday. don't blame the schools, blame the parents.



I can't begin to tell you how exciting it is to find parents working with their children, or step-children in this fashion!

Of course, all parents should act this way to the extent that they are able...

But you are overlooking a major difference between what you are doing, and what is going on in the school system: you are investing your child with a fact-based curriculum, and requiring the incorporation of that body of knowledge by a one-on-one testing process.

Education Week researchers found evidence of a consistently positive relationship between achievement gains and the implementation of standards-based policies related to academic-content standards, aligned assessments, and accountability measures. These associations are more robust for achievement in mathematics, compared to reading. http://www.edweek.org/media/ew/qc/2006/MakingtheConnection.pdf

This is very different from the regimen practiced in the public schools, where self-esteem is considered more important than content-based curriculum.

"... beyond his homework in math, reading, and science."

In the 1992 Stevenson and Stigler, in The Learning Gap: Why Our Schools Are Failing, And What We Can Learn From Japanese and Chinese Education, wrote that Asian parents value effort, and expect their children to work hard, while American parents tend to value their childrens innate abilities, and excuse mediocre academic performance. 
You, of course, fit this paradigm.

Many educators believe that external standards threaten to damage childrens fragile self-esteem. They excuse poor performance as the result of some psychic or emotional deficit in the learner, not as a consequence of low expectations, poor instruction, or laziness. A caring, but misguided view.

I don't know what your preparation is for teaching the youngster, but if it is not based on and ed-school background, consider this fact: these teacher-preparers do such a poor job that they are in large measure reponsible for the mess we have today.

	a. nearly eight in ten teachers believe the publics approach toward learning is outdated and mistaken, and suggest a different path for American education. In sharp contrast to the concerns expressed by typical Americanssmall percentages of education professors feel maintaining discipline and order in the classroom (37%), stressing grammar as well as correct spelling and punctuation (19%), and expecting students to be on time and polite (12%) are absolutely essential qualities to impart to prospective teachers.Fifty-nine percent, for example, think academic sanctions such as the threat of flunking or being held back are not important to motivating kids to learn. Professors of Education: It's How You Learn, Not What You Learn That's Most Important | Public Agenda

	b. A majority of US teacher-prep programs shun scientific evidence regarding effective instructional method. Education Schools Project

	c.  Fewer than 15% of ed-school programs that train primary teachers provide even minimal exposure to the science of reading and most encourage methods of reading instruction that are apt to leave millions of elementary pupils illiterate. http://www.nctq.org/nctq/images/nctq_reading_study_app.pdf


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## California Girl

I like that the teachers are blaming the parents. That's funny. Since I have no dog in the hunt, I say that there is blame for both.... probably more parental responsibility but there are a lot of crap teachers around. That's cuz of the fucking unions.

Easy Answer:

1. Make parents take responsibility for their kids.
2. Fire crap teachers and replace them with good teachers.

Job done.


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## antagon

blu said:


> I think parent's are the biggest problem. between libraries and the internet there is nothing stopping you from teaching your kid as much as you want. my stepson is in 2nd grade now but was rated at reading above a 5th grade level and will soon be starting algebra with me. we do an hour every night beyond his homework in math, reading, and science.  he also reads on his own everyday. don't blame the schools, blame the parents.


i think everyone but the education system can take this argument.  at some point they need to compensate for factors which prevent basic attainment, even to an extent, the parents.

they are responsible for results.  in the last 40yrs the education system has worked out ways to accommodate all kinds of bullshit, but has made no inroads on the real issues of discipline and purpose, without which, time and money spent educating is wasted.


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## PoliticalChic

xsited1 said:


> Big_D said:
> 
> 
> 
> Why American children are falling behind
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Just remove minority students from the overall statistics and America is #1.
Click to expand...


Sorry, my friend, while you and I are usually on the same page, consider the results obtained by KIPP schools or the Pacific Rim Academy, or the Harlem Success Academy, and many similar private and/or charter schools, all of which can be found on Google, and are successful with mainly minority students.


No, the answer is that they have largely jettisoned the progressive approach.


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## xsited1

antagon said:


> xsited1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> antagon said:
> 
> 
> 
> too many stupid, delinquent whities out there.  you'd be disappointed.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry, but you'd be wrong.  Check out scores by race:
> 
> National Statistics on Education and Equity Issues, By Race and Ethnicity
> Fast Facts
> 
> In Little Rock, there are racist blacks running the school system.  They even admit it.  All the good teachers have either left the city or teach in private schools.  Even blacks who want a good education send their kids to private schools.  (I know plenty.)
> 
> Most European countries are much more homogeneous race-wise than the US.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> that white kids out-stat most minorities most of the time is different than presuming they'll propel the country to #1 without the 'burden' of minorities.  that's the disappointing stretch youve made.
> 
> our history educating minorities plays a role you've also underestimated.  europe's got a different history with some different results, despite your homogeneity..
> 
> article
Click to expand...


Wrong.  The fact is that minorities are driving America's average test scores down.  What's worse is the public school systems fail to do anything about this except to 'dumb-down' everyone.  We should be asking the hard questions, like "why do blacks perform so poorly in school?"  The answers are quite clear:  their family unit is in shambles so the parent or parents do not take an active interest in their children's education.  Why?  One reason is that the government has taken the place of the father for many black households, leaving a single mother to care for the children.  That obviously won't work.  

I'd like to see less people dependent on the government and more parents taking responsibility for raising their children.  But our current system won't let that happen so expect more of the same.  In the meantime, follow the Obama plan:  send your kids to private schools.  Even Bill Clinton did that.  They know the truth behind public education.


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## antagon

xsited1 said:


> antagon said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> xsited1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry, but you'd be wrong.  Check out scores by race:
> 
> National Statistics on Education and Equity Issues, By Race and Ethnicity
> Fast Facts
> 
> In Little Rock, there are racist blacks running the school system.  They even admit it.  All the good teachers have either left the city or teach in private schools.  Even blacks who want a good education send their kids to private schools.  (I know plenty.)
> 
> Most European countries are much more homogeneous race-wise than the US.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> that white kids out-stat most minorities most of the time is different than presuming they'll propel the country to #1 without the 'burden' of minorities.  that's the disappointing stretch youve made.
> 
> our history educating minorities plays a role you've also underestimated.  europe's got a different history with some different results, despite your homogeneity..
> 
> article
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Wrong.  The fact is that minorities are driving America's average test scores down.  What's worse is the public school systems fail to do anything about this except to 'dumb-down' everyone.  We should be asking the hard questions, like "why do blacks perform so poorly in school?"  The answers are quite clear:  their family unit is in shambles so the parent or parents do not take an active interest in their children's education.  Why?  One reason is that the government has taken the place of the father for many black households, leaving a single mother to care for the children.  That obviously won't work.
> 
> I'd like to see less people dependent on the government and more parents taking responsibility for raising their children.  But our current system won't let that happen so expect more of the same.  In the meantime, follow the Obama plan:  send your kids to private schools.  Even Bill Clinton did that.  They know the truth behind public education.
Click to expand...

i still dont see a bridge between white american student's performance and #1 in the world.    

id like to see the education system less satisfied with leaving students to their own devices and (re)implementing an approach which makes attainment important.  if parents second that effort, great.  the problem with the minority's fault and parents' fault arguments is that they are solid trends which education should react to accommodate, instead of leverage as excuses. 

i went to private schools except for 3rd and 9th grade.  even private university.  i dont have any kids yet, but if up to me i'll educate them privately.  my experiences in public and private school leave me with the impression that the public system is mandatory day-care. in 9th grade i was presented with 7th-8th grade material with less homework and testing than i had in years.  the way information was presented and the extent it was important to take heed was a joke.  we got through 1/3 to 1/2 of the textbooks after a year.  

what's the point?  how white or supportively-raised do you have to be to achieve in that environment?


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## Samson

California Girl said:


> I like that the teachers are blaming the parents. That's funny. Since I have no dog in the hunt, I say that there is blame for both.... probably more parental responsibility but there are a lot of crap teachers around. That's cuz of the fucking unions.
> 
> Easy Answer:
> 
> 1. Make parents take responsibility for their kids.
> 2. Fire crap teachers and replace them with good teachers.
> 
> Job done.



A. How would you "make parents take responsibility" for anything, let alone their kids? Shall we make them stay after school? What if they don't? Suspend Them? Expel the parents from school?

B. Replace them with "Good Teachers?" You mean the Good Teachers we haven't picked off The Teacher Tree Groves? Where have all these "Good" Teachers been Hiding?


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## blu

PoliticalChic said:


> blu said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think parent's are the biggest problem. between libraries and the internet there is nothing stopping you from teaching your kid as much as you want. my stepson is in 2nd grade now but was rated at reading above a 5th grade level and will soon be starting algebra with me. we do an hour every night beyond his homework in math, reading, and science.  he also reads on his own everyday. don't blame the schools, blame the parents.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I can't begin to tell you how exciting it is to find parents working with their children, or step-children in this fashion!
> 
> Of course, all parents should act this way to the extent that they are able...
> 
> But you are overlooking a major difference between what you are doing, and what is going on in the school system: you are investing your child with a fact-based curriculum, and requiring the incorporation of that body of knowledge by a one-on-one testing process.
> 
> Education Week researchers found evidence of a consistently positive relationship between achievement gains and the implementation of standards-based policies related to academic-content standards, aligned assessments, and accountability measures. These associations are more robust for achievement in mathematics, compared to reading. http://www.edweek.org/media/ew/qc/2006/MakingtheConnection.pdf
> 
> This is very different from the regimen practiced in the public schools, where self-esteem is considered more important than content-based curriculum.
> 
> "... beyond his homework in math, reading, and science."
> 
> In the 1992 Stevenson and Stigler, in The Learning Gap: Why Our Schools Are Failing, And What We Can Learn From Japanese and Chinese Education, wrote that Asian parents value effort, and expect their children to work hard, while American parents tend to value their childrens innate abilities, and excuse mediocre academic performance.
> You, of course, fit this paradigm.
> 
> Many educators believe that external standards threaten to damage childrens fragile self-esteem. They excuse poor performance as the result of some psychic or emotional deficit in the learner, not as a consequence of low expectations, poor instruction, or laziness. A caring, but misguided view.
> 
> I don't know what your preparation is for teaching the youngster, but if it is not based on and ed-school background, consider this fact: these teacher-preparers do such a poor job that they are in large measure reponsible for the mess we have today.
> 
> a. nearly eight in ten teachers believe the publics approach toward learning is outdated and mistaken, and suggest a different path for American education. In sharp contrast to the concerns expressed by typical Americanssmall percentages of education professors feel maintaining discipline and order in the classroom (37%), stressing grammar as well as correct spelling and punctuation (19%), and expecting students to be on time and polite (12%) are absolutely essential qualities to impart to prospective teachers.Fifty-nine percent, for example, think academic sanctions such as the threat of flunking or being held back are not important to motivating kids to learn. Professors of Education: It's How You Learn, Not What You Learn That's Most Important | Public Agenda
> 
> b. A majority of US teacher-prep programs shun scientific evidence regarding effective instructional method. Education Schools Project
> 
> c.  Fewer than 15% of ed-school programs that train primary teachers provide even minimal exposure to the science of reading and most encourage methods of reading instruction that are apt to leave millions of elementary pupils illiterate. http://www.nctq.org/nctq/images/nctq_reading_study_app.pdf
Click to expand...


I don't have any professional teaching background, but I have tutored a number of people in school and in my family. I pretty much just do what works including visuals where necessary (we have a big erasable board in my office that we use), along with doing examples then letting him do some on his own. once he knows the material I then give word problem type things that ties it into real life.

Until about a month ago, I had no real way of judging how well my teaching was working for him because it was so far ahead of his school work, but a month ago he got the results from his admissions test into the gifted/magnet/advanced studies school and he got a 98 overall and a 99 in math, which got him accepted into their top academic track, so I think its doing well.  

those are very interesting links as well, still reading them. thank you.


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## Bill O'Olberman

xsited1 said:


> Big_D said:
> 
> 
> 
> Why American children are falling behind
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Just remove minority students from the overall statistics and America is #1.
Click to expand...


Actually, asian americans out preform whites in America. They may lag slightly behind in "engrish" but they more than make up for that deficiency in their superiority in math and science. By your logic, if we got removed everyone but asians from the american school system america's statstics would be even better.


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## antagon

Bill O'Olberman said:


> xsited1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Big_D said:
> 
> 
> 
> Why American children are falling behind
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Just remove minority students from the overall statistics and America is #1.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Actually, asian americans out preform whites in America. They may lag slightly behind in "engrish" but they more than make up for that deficiency in their superiority in math and science. By your logic, if we got removed everyone but asians from the american school system america's statstics would be even better.
Click to expand...


hey, if we remove boys we'll be better yet!


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## Douger

xsited1 said:


> antagon said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> xsited1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Just remove minority students from the overall statistics and America is #1.
> 
> 
> 
> too many stupid, delinquent whities out there.  you'd be disappointed.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Sorry, but you'd be wrong.  Check out scores by race:
> 
> National Statistics on Education and Equity Issues, By Race and Ethnicity
> Fast Facts
> 
> In Little Rock, there are racist blacks running the school system.  They even admit it.  All the good teachers have either left the city or teach in private schools.  Even blacks who want a good education send their kids to private schools.  (I know plenty.)
> 
> Most European countries are much more homogeneous race-wise than the US.
Click to expand...


That's because most blacks in Europe and the rest of the world don't act like fucking *******.
Now they have all the white kids acting like *******. That, combined with outlawing corporal punishment and you have a clusterfuck.


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## Bill O'Olberman

Douger said:


> xsited1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> antagon said:
> 
> 
> 
> too many stupid, delinquent whities out there.  you'd be disappointed.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry, but you'd be wrong.  Check out scores by race:
> 
> National Statistics on Education and Equity Issues, By Race and Ethnicity
> Fast Facts
> 
> In Little Rock, there are racist blacks running the school system.  They even admit it.  All the good teachers have either left the city or teach in private schools.  Even blacks who want a good education send their kids to private schools.  (I know plenty.)
> 
> Most European countries are much more homogeneous race-wise than the US.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> That's because most blacks in Europe and the rest of the world don't act like fucking *******.
> Now they have all the white kids acting like *******. That, combined with outlawing corporal punishment and you have a clusterfuck.
Click to expand...


Wow, you're an idiot and a clear example of the shortcomings of the American education system.


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## uscitizen

Extend the school year for one thing.  The summer vacation length is an archaic American tradition.  It was set up so that the kids could help the family on the farm.
How many do that now?

Compare our length of school year to the other industrialized nations.

Our drop out rate is horrendous.
Ban cell devices in school, they must be in the locker not the classroom.


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## Douger

uscitizen said:


> Extend the school year for one thing.  The summer vacation length is an archaic American tradition.  It was set up so that the kids could help the family on the farm.
> How many do that now?
> 
> Compare our length of school year to the other industrialized nations.
> 
> Our drop out rate is horrendous.
> Ban cell devices in school, they must be in the locker not the classroom.


Now they help out with the family meth lab.


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## blu

uscitizen said:


> Extend the school year for one thing.  The summer vacation length is an archaic American tradition.  It was set up so that the kids could help the family on the farm.
> How many do that now?
> 
> Compare our length of school year to the other industrialized nations.
> 
> Our drop out rate is horrendous.
> Ban cell devices in school, they must be in the locker not the classroom.



california's (other states probably have it) system is best, but really hard on parents. its something like 8 weeks on, 3 off, and goes year round. summer is terrible ons tudents. teachers have to spend the first month of every year recapping stuff from before and (most) kids learn 0 during the summer, a complete waste of a 4th of the year.


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## Douger

Bill O'Olberman said:


> Douger said:
> 
> 
> 
> .
> 
> 
> 
> Wow, you're an idiot and a clear example of the shortcomings of the American education system.
Click to expand...

Shill. Have you ever left the empire to experience other cultures ?
Have you ever looked in from the outside ?
BTW. I'm a retired fisheries biologist and fluent in 3 languages and speak a little Korean from my flag waving daze..
 I went to Essex, where black people live.


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## antagon

Douger said:


> Bill O'Olberman said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Douger said:
> 
> 
> 
> .
> 
> 
> 
> Wow, you're an idiot and a clear example of the shortcomings of the American education system.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Shill. Have you ever left the empire to experience other cultures ?
> Have you ever looked in from the outside ?
> BTW. I'm a retired fisheries biologist and fluent in 3 languages and speak a little Korean from my flag waving daze..
> I went to Essex, where black people live.
Click to expand...

i think you should go to los angeles, where black people live, and profess your ****** act theory in the middle of the street.

your career fails to cover the shortcomings, clown.


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## chanel

Dr Grump said:


> chanel said:
> 
> 
> 
> 28 percent of my district is classified special ed. Do foreign countries include the handicapped in their stats? Just sayin...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ???? How do they define handicapped? 28 percent of the district? Does America have special districts where handicapped kids go? That seems unusually high......
Click to expand...


It can be anything from a minor speech impediment to bipolar disorder to blindness.  Our numbers are unusually high.  Severely handicapped kids go to alternative schools which average around $60K per student with transportation and related services.  The rest are educated in regular schools but all test scores are attached to their neighborhood school, regardless of where they actually go.

I attribute our high numbers to substance abuse/child abuse.  No coincidence there.  Much of the damage is done in utero; and the rest is probably a result of neglect in the early years. Most druggies just want someone to feed and watch their kids for seven hours.  If they learn something, great.  If not, that's ok too.  Welfare and/or seasonal unemployment isn't anything to be ashamed of anymore.  It's a career choice for many which requires no skills or education and has a very lucrative health insurance plan.  

Schools are for students that want to improve their circumstances and become contributing members of society.  There is little incentive to do that anymore.

But I take these stats with a grain of salt.  We are not comparing apples to apples even within our own country.  There are still many, many brilliant kids coming out of our public high schools.  These kids have families and communities that value education.  No coincidence there either.


----------



## antagon

Dr Grump said:


> chanel said:
> 
> 
> 
> 28 percent of my district is classified special ed. Do foreign countries include the handicapped in their stats? Just sayin...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ???? How do they define handicapped? 28 percent of the district? Does America have special districts where handicapped kids go? That seems unusually high......
Click to expand...

there's some bullshit going on in this country whereby shrinks are bankrolling themselves at the expense of people's children via such diagnoses.  supply and demand in the hands of the same party.


----------



## bodecea

Dr Grump said:


> chanel said:
> 
> 
> 
> 28 percent of my district is classified special ed. Do foreign countries include the handicapped in their stats? Just sayin...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ???? How do they define handicapped? 28 percent of the district? Does America have special districts where handicapped kids go? That seems unusually high......
Click to expand...


Not really.  And they are measured with all as are the English Learners.  They must ALL take the NCLB tests AT. GRADE. LEVEL.   So, a 13 year old special ed student reading at the 3rd grade level takes the 8th grade test and that student's grade is figured in with all other 8th graders.   Truth.


Other countries do not do that.   Other countries have longer school days.  Other countries have longer school years.   Other countries track.


----------



## bodecea

California Girl said:


> I like that the teachers are blaming the parents. That's funny. Since I have no dog in the hunt, I say that there is blame for both.... probably more parental responsibility but there are a lot of crap teachers around. That's cuz of the fucking unions.
> 
> Easy Answer:
> 
> 1. Make parents take responsibility for their kids.
> 2. Fire crap teachers and replace them with good teachers.
> 
> Job done.



Define a crap teacher.


----------



## bodecea

Bill O'Olberman said:


> xsited1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Big_D said:
> 
> 
> 
> Why American children are falling behind
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Just remove minority students from the overall statistics and America is #1.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Actually, asian americans out preform whites in America. They may lag slightly behind in "engrish" but they more than make up for that deficiency in their superiority in math and science. By your logic, if we got removed everyone but asians from the american school system america's statstics would be even better.
Click to expand...


And anyone want to guess the difference between "Asians" and other groups?   The emphasis the PARENTS put on education.  It goes back to the PARENTING.


----------



## Truthmatters

California Girl said:


> thomas78 said:
> 
> 
> 
> This comes as a shock to me because I'd think US children were one of the brightest groups internationally (I'm not American).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Only those who don't attend public schools.
Click to expand...


There you go , this person hates her countrymen so much she is willing to say the vast majority of Americans are stupid.


----------



## xsited1

Bill O'Olberman said:


> xsited1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Big_D said:
> 
> 
> 
> Why American children are falling behind
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Just remove minority students from the overall statistics and America is #1.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Actually, asian americans out preform whites in America. They may lag slightly behind in "engrish" but they more than make up for that deficiency in their superiority in math and science. By your logic, if we got removed everyone but asians from the american school system america's statstics would be even better.
Click to expand...


Of course I know this because I'm a member.  However, Asians make up such a small percentage of the population that their test scores are statistically insignificant in the grand scheme of things.  I'm sure you knew this, but decided to throw logic to the wind and post your drivel anyway.


----------



## xsited1

PoliticalChic said:


> xsited1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Big_D said:
> 
> 
> 
> Why American children are falling behind
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Just remove minority students from the overall statistics and America is #1.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Sorry, my friend, while you and I are usually on the same page, consider the results obtained by KIPP schools or the Pacific Rim Academy, or the Harlem Success Academy, and many similar private and/or charter schools, all of which can be found on Google, and are successful with mainly minority students.
> 
> 
> No, the answer is that they have largely jettisoned the progressive approach.
Click to expand...


Incorrect, of course, but we are essentially trying to say the same thing.  My point is very simple:  determine what is wrong and fix it.  You've provided one solution.  I know this solution works because I've seen it work.  Look at a later post of mine for more of an explanation.


----------



## Samson

Truthmatters said:


> California Girl said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> thomas78 said:
> 
> 
> 
> This comes as a shock to me because I'd think US children were one of the brightest groups internationally (I'm not American).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Only those who don't attend public schools.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> There you go , this person hates her countrymen so much she is willing to say the vast majority of Americans are stupid.
Click to expand...


If it makes you feel any better, I only think you and a few dozen Americans are really stupid.


----------



## Bill O'Olberman

xsited1 said:


> Bill O'Olberman said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> xsited1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Just remove minority students from the overall statistics and America is #1.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Actually, asian americans out preform whites in America. They may lag slightly behind in "engrish" but they more than make up for that deficiency in their superiority in math and science. By your logic, if we got removed everyone but asians from the american school system america's statstics would be even better.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Of course I know this because I'm a member.  However, Asians make up such a small percentage of the population that their test scores are statistically insignificant in the grand scheme of things.  I'm sure you knew this, but decided to throw logic to the wind and post your drivel anyway.
Click to expand...


Exactly how large does a sample size have to be before you can draw statistically significant conclusions about that group? There are roughly 15.5 million Asian Americans in the United States (about 5 percent of the total population). There are almost 80 million students in U.S. schools. I am going to make the assumption that 5 percent of those 80 million are asian americans. So we have 4000000 asian americans in american schools. I doubt youll find any statistician in the world who doesnt believe statistically significant conclusions can be drawn from a population of 4000000 people. Still if we assume that they are evenly dispersed between grades 1 and twelve that is 333,333 per grade. An N of 333,333 is large enough to show a statistically significant relationship with very little margin of error. 

You probably didnt mean statistically significant but rather that they make up such a small percentage of U.S. school children that their effect overall effect on U.S. test scores is marginal.


----------



## midcan5

Egad this is tiring. So in the interest of not wasting time on those who live in America but seem to think in outer space, please allow me to re-post the following replies and link to original debates. PS I know many many teachers and it sure ain't their problem, and this goes for private schools too where the American kids are just as spacey as their parents.

Post #12 http://www.usmessageboard.com/education-and-history/108215-education-then-and-now.html

===========

When you make a joke on a noble profession expect an answer.

You miss the point with your constant attempts to pin the blame on others.  Sorry reality is so tough for you, but face it this is America when home schooling and Christian schools are praised for reasons that contradict the very purpose of education.

Again this is America, when was the last time you saw any ad or information on TV praising education or the people who work hard at it? When was the last time you saw teachers referred to as professionals. See ? below. Occasionally there are stories on individual people who make a difference but this is bigger than them. Jonathan Kozol is superb.

I have never watched 'Glee' but it appears to me to be about extracurricular activities and not about school. Am I wrong? This is where our values come from or are displayed.

One of our sons taught math in HS and quickly gave it up as most of the children had no interest in the subject and were plainly obnoxious. Math means nothing to a person who can hit a three point shot. Only the advanced classes were a pleasure. 

Maybe we need to teach golf, basketball, football, soccer, baseball, and for the 99.5% who won't make a living on any of the above, ditch digging and litter pick ups techniques for the great majority. Oh and whining too, Americans do that well.

The Finland information above demonstrates the whys. Do you think the Fins want to shoot basketballs or kick soccer balls after school or do they study.

In America, vacation and sports activities come before education, ask any teacher. And oddly we are a fat nation, maybe we need to add eating to the curriculum. TV watching would be a biggie too. We can all watch Fox and be sacred and fat and dumb too. Glenn Beck could turn anyone into a retard.  

Every American knows a dummy who got rich, why even Gates dropped out of school. These memes, these values are written in our constitution of life. Listen sometime. 'My uncle has a cash store and he makes lots of money, so dats wat I wanna do.' 

One teacher asked me to ask the audience here, when was the last time they asked for an 'appointment' with a teacher for a conference concerning their little Joanie (for whatever) or did not just expect the teacher - the professional - to hear their poop on why little Joanie didn't give a fluck about her education or didn't have her homework cause she was too tired. Usually the parents blame the teacher cause little Joanie's grades are sad. Egad, doesn't that sound familiar!

PS I taught too after school more on that maybe later. 


A Nation of Morons - TurnOffYourTV.com
[ame=http://www.amazon.com/Dumbing-Down-Curriculum-Compulsory-Schooling/dp/0865714487/ref=sr_1_14?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1241441360&sr=1-14]Amazon.com: Dumbing Us Down: The Hidden Curriculum of Compulsory Schooling (9780865714489): John Taylor Gatto, Thomas Moore: Books[/ame]
Dumbest Generation Home
[ame=http://www.amazon.com/High-Tech-Heretic-Reflections-Computer-Contrarian/dp/0385489765/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1248093458&sr=1-1]Amazon.com: High-Tech Heretic: Reflections of a Computer Contrarian (9780385489768): Clifford Stoll: Books[/ame]
Are children getting dumber?  Prospect Magazine
[ame=http://www.amazon.com/Dumbest-Generation-Stupefies-Americans-Jeopardizes/dp/1585426393]Amazon.com: The Dumbest Generation: How the Digital Age Stupefies Young Americans and Jeopardizes Our Future (Or, Don&#39;t Trust Anyone Under 30) (9781585426393): Mark Bauerlein: Books[/ame]


xxxx

Refute what?  Surveys that find what they are looking for are hardly proof of anything. It isn't personal as I know lots of teachers and all would say the same thing. You assume you know something you don't. It doesn't follow that government is the cause of all things bad and ugly.

Since we discussed this before often, I raised this question with numerous teachers. So for the sake of clarity - *America does not honor, praise, acknowledge, or care about education across a wide spectrum. Find out why that is then get back to us. And while you are at it, figure out why science such as global warming and evolution are still controversial in a presumably intelligent nation.

Asian children do well in the same schools you belittle, so do bright or motivated students. Again why. Maybe because most Americas worship money, sports, image, etc in that order, education comes somewhere down the line possibly just ahead of religion. The youtube above says it pretty clearly.  

Re: Finland "Not surprisingly, in a land where literacy and numeracy are considered virtues, teachers are revered. Teenagers ranked teaching at the top of their list of favorite professions in a recent survey. Far more graduates of upper schools in Finland apply for admission to teacher-training institutes than are accepted. The overwhelming majority of those who eventually enter the classroom as a teacher make it a lifelong career, even though they are paid no more than their counterparts in other European countries." Lessons From Finland: The Way to Education Excellence | CommonDreams.org

"At the heart of Finland's stellar reputation is a philosophy completely alien to America. The country of 5.3 million in an area twice the size of Missouri considers education an end in itself - not a means to an end. It's a deeply rooted value that is reflected in the Ministry of Education and in all 432 municipalities. In sharp contrast, Americans view education as a stepping stone to better-paying jobs or to impress others. The distinction explains why we are obsessed with marquee names, and how we structure, operate and fund schools." 

http://www.usmessageboard.com/educa...liberals-in-the-classroom-11.html#post1749647



Repost:  From 'Notebook, A Quibble,' By Mark Slouka

"I was raised to be ashamed of my ignorance, and to try to do something about it if at all possible. I carry that burden to this day, and have successfully passed it on to my children. I dont believe I have the right to an opinion about something I know nothing aboutconstitutional law, for example, or sailinga notion that puts me sadly out of step with a growing majority of my countrymen, many of whom may be unable to tell you anything at all about Islam, say, or socialism, or climate change, except that they hate it, are against it, dont believe in it. Worse still (or more amusing, depending on the day) are those who can tell you, and then offer up a stew of New Age blather, right-wing rant, and bloggers speculation thats so divorced from actual, demonstrable fact, thats so not true, as the kids would say, that the mind goes numb with wonder. Way I see it is, a man in the Tulsa Motel 6 swimming pool told me last summer, if English was good enough for Jesus Christ, its good enough for us.

Quite possibly, this belief in our own opinion, regardless of the facts, may be what separates us from the nations of the world, what makes us unique in Gods eyes. The average German or Czech, though possibly no less ignorant than his American counterpart, will probably consider the possibility that someone who has spent his life studying something may have an opinion worth considering. Not the American. Although perfectly willing to recognize expertise in basketball, for example, or refrigerator repair, when it comes to the realm of ideas, all folks (and their opinions) are suddenly equal. Thus evolution is a damned lie, global warming a liberal hoax, and Republicans care about people like you."

Article appeared in Notesbook. Harper's Magazine*


----------



## PoliticalChic

midcan5 said:


> Egad this is tiring. So in the interest of not wasting time on those who live in America but seem to think in outer space, please allow me to re-post the following replies and link to original debates. PS I know many many teachers and it sure ain't their problem, and this goes for private schools too where the American kids are just as spacey as their parents.
> 
> Post #12 http://www.usmessageboard.com/education-and-history/108215-education-then-and-now.html
> 
> ===========
> 
> When you make a joke on a noble profession expect an answer.
> 
> You miss the point with your constant attempts to pin the blame on others.  Sorry reality is so tough for you, but face it this is America when home schooling and Christian schools are praised for reasons that contradict the very purpose of education.
> 
> Again this is America, when was the last time you saw any ad or information on TV praising education or the people who work hard at it? When was the last time you saw teachers referred to as professionals. See ? below. Occasionally there are stories on individual people who make a difference but this is bigger than them. Jonathan Kozol is superb.
> 
> I have never watched 'Glee' but it appears to me to be about extracurricular activities and not about school. Am I wrong? This is where our values come from or are displayed.
> 
> One of our sons taught math in HS and quickly gave it up as most of the children had no interest in the subject and were plainly obnoxious. Math means nothing to a person who can hit a three point shot. Only the advanced classes were a pleasure.
> 
> Maybe we need to teach golf, basketball, football, soccer, baseball, and for the 99.5% who won't make a living on any of the above, ditch digging and litter pick ups techniques for the great majority. Oh and whining too, Americans do that well.
> 
> The Finland information above demonstrates the whys. Do you think the Fins want to shoot basketballs or kick soccer balls after school or do they study.
> 
> In America, vacation and sports activities come before education, ask any teacher. And oddly we are a fat nation, maybe we need to add eating to the curriculum. TV watching would be a biggie too. We can all watch Fox and be sacred and fat and dumb too. Glenn Beck could turn anyone into a retard.
> 
> Every American knows a dummy who got rich, why even Gates dropped out of school. These memes, these values are written in our constitution of life. Listen sometime. 'My uncle has a cash store and he makes lots of money, so dats wat I wanna do.'
> 
> One teacher asked me to ask the audience here, when was the last time they asked for an 'appointment' with a teacher for a conference concerning their little Joanie (for whatever) or did not just expect the teacher - the professional - to hear their poop on why little Joanie didn't give a fluck about her education or didn't have her homework cause she was too tired. Usually the parents blame the teacher cause little Joanie's grades are sad. Egad, doesn't that sound familiar!
> 
> PS I taught too after school more on that maybe later.
> 
> 
> A Nation of Morons - TurnOffYourTV.com
> Amazon.com: Dumbing Us Down: The Hidden Curriculum of Compulsory Schooling (9780865714489): John Taylor Gatto, Thomas Moore: Books
> Dumbest Generation Home
> Amazon.com: High-Tech Heretic: Reflections of a Computer Contrarian (9780385489768): Clifford Stoll: Books
> Are children getting dumber?  Prospect Magazine
> Amazon.com: The Dumbest Generation: How the Digital Age Stupefies Young Americans and Jeopardizes Our Future (Or, Don't Trust Anyone Under 30) (9781585426393): Mark Bauerlein: Books
> 
> 
> xxxx
> 
> Refute what?  Surveys that find what they are looking for are hardly proof of anything. It isn't personal as I know lots of teachers and all would say the same thing. You assume you know something you don't. It doesn't follow that government is the cause of all things bad and ugly.
> 
> Since we discussed this before often, I raised this question with numerous teachers. So for the sake of clarity - *America does not honor, praise, acknowledge, or care about education across a wide spectrum. Find out why that is then get back to us. And while you are at it, figure out why science such as global warming and evolution are still controversial in a presumably intelligent nation.
> 
> Asian children do well in the same schools you belittle, so do bright or motivated students. Again why. Maybe because most Americas worship money, sports, image, etc in that order, education comes somewhere down the line possibly just ahead of religion. The youtube above says it pretty clearly.
> 
> Re: Finland "Not surprisingly, in a land where literacy and numeracy are considered virtues, teachers are revered. Teenagers ranked teaching at the top of their list of favorite professions in a recent survey. Far more graduates of upper schools in Finland apply for admission to teacher-training institutes than are accepted. The overwhelming majority of those who eventually enter the classroom as a teacher make it a lifelong career, even though they are paid no more than their counterparts in other European countries." Lessons From Finland: The Way to Education Excellence | CommonDreams.org
> 
> "At the heart of Finland's stellar reputation is a philosophy completely alien to America. The country of 5.3 million in an area twice the size of Missouri considers education an end in itself - not a means to an end. It's a deeply rooted value that is reflected in the Ministry of Education and in all 432 municipalities. In sharp contrast, Americans view education as a stepping stone to better-paying jobs or to impress others. The distinction explains why we are obsessed with marquee names, and how we structure, operate and fund schools."
> 
> http://www.usmessageboard.com/educa...liberals-in-the-classroom-11.html#post1749647
> 
> 
> 
> Repost:  From 'Notebook, A Quibble,' By Mark Slouka
> 
> "I was raised to be ashamed of my ignorance, and to try to do something about it if at all possible. I carry that burden to this day, and have successfully passed it on to my children. I dont believe I have the right to an opinion about something I know nothing aboutconstitutional law, for example, or sailinga notion that puts me sadly out of step with a growing majority of my countrymen, many of whom may be unable to tell you anything at all about Islam, say, or socialism, or climate change, except that they hate it, are against it, dont believe in it. Worse still (or more amusing, depending on the day) are those who can tell you, and then offer up a stew of New Age blather, right-wing rant, and bloggers speculation thats so divorced from actual, demonstrable fact, thats so not true, as the kids would say, that the mind goes numb with wonder. Way I see it is, a man in the Tulsa Motel 6 swimming pool told me last summer, if English was good enough for Jesus Christ, its good enough for us.
> 
> Quite possibly, this belief in our own opinion, regardless of the facts, may be what separates us from the nations of the world, what makes us unique in Gods eyes. The average German or Czech, though possibly no less ignorant than his American counterpart, will probably consider the possibility that someone who has spent his life studying something may have an opinion worth considering. Not the American. Although perfectly willing to recognize expertise in basketball, for example, or refrigerator repair, when it comes to the realm of ideas, all folks (and their opinions) are suddenly equal. Thus evolution is a damned lie, global warming a liberal hoax, and Republicans care about people like you."
> 
> Article appeared in Notesbook. Harper's Magazine*


*

So, as I sit at your feet to learn, oh great one, am I correct that your analysis is that teachers are great, students are just spacey- in both public school and private schools, and there really is no problem with education in the US....

And the rule of thumb is that studies only find the answer they were looking for, and only lib studies are ethical and objective.

Brilliant, simply brilliant.

And the national bird is the ostrich?*


----------



## Samson

PoliticalChic said:


> midcan5 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Egad this is tiring. So in the interest of not wasting time on those who live in America but seem to think in outer space, please allow me to re-post the following replies and link to original debates. PS I know many many teachers and it sure ain't their problem, and this goes for private schools too where the American kids are just as spacey as their parents.
> 
> Post #12 http://www.usmessageboard.com/education-and-history/108215-education-then-and-now.html
> 
> ===========
> 
> When you make a joke on a noble profession expect an answer.
> 
> You miss the point with your constant attempts to pin the blame on others.  Sorry reality is so tough for you, but face it this is America when home schooling and Christian schools are praised for reasons that contradict the very purpose of education.
> 
> Again this is America, when was the last time you saw any ad or information on TV praising education or the people who work hard at it? When was the last time you saw teachers referred to as professionals. See ? below. Occasionally there are stories on individual people who make a difference but this is bigger than them. Jonathan Kozol is superb.
> 
> I have never watched 'Glee' but it appears to me to be about extracurricular activities and not about school. Am I wrong? This is where our values come from or are displayed.
> 
> One of our sons taught math in HS and quickly gave it up as most of the children had no interest in the subject and were plainly obnoxious. Math means nothing to a person who can hit a three point shot. Only the advanced classes were a pleasure.
> 
> Maybe we need to teach golf, basketball, football, soccer, baseball, and for the 99.5% who won't make a living on any of the above, ditch digging and litter pick ups techniques for the great majority. Oh and whining too, Americans do that well.
> 
> The Finland information above demonstrates the whys. Do you think the Fins want to shoot basketballs or kick soccer balls after school or do they study.
> 
> In America, vacation and sports activities come before education, ask any teacher. And oddly we are a fat nation, maybe we need to add eating to the curriculum. TV watching would be a biggie too. We can all watch Fox and be sacred and fat and dumb too. Glenn Beck could turn anyone into a retard.
> 
> Every American knows a dummy who got rich, why even Gates dropped out of school. These memes, these values are written in our constitution of life. Listen sometime. 'My uncle has a cash store and he makes lots of money, so dats wat I wanna do.'
> 
> One teacher asked me to ask the audience here, when was the last time they asked for an 'appointment' with a teacher for a conference concerning their little Joanie (for whatever) or did not just expect the teacher - the professional - to hear their poop on why little Joanie didn't give a fluck about her education or didn't have her homework cause she was too tired. Usually the parents blame the teacher cause little Joanie's grades are sad. Egad, doesn't that sound familiar!
> 
> PS I taught too after school more on that maybe later.
> 
> 
> A Nation of Morons - TurnOffYourTV.com
> Amazon.com: Dumbing Us Down: The Hidden Curriculum of Compulsory Schooling (9780865714489): John Taylor Gatto, Thomas Moore: Books
> Dumbest Generation Home
> Amazon.com: High-Tech Heretic: Reflections of a Computer Contrarian (9780385489768): Clifford Stoll: Books
> Are children getting dumber?  Prospect Magazine
> Amazon.com: The Dumbest Generation: How the Digital Age Stupefies Young Americans and Jeopardizes Our Future (Or, Don't Trust Anyone Under 30) (9781585426393): Mark Bauerlein: Books
> 
> 
> xxxx
> 
> Refute what?  Surveys that find what they are looking for are hardly proof of anything. It isn't personal as I know lots of teachers and all would say the same thing. You assume you know something you don't. It doesn't follow that government is the cause of all things bad and ugly.
> 
> Since we discussed this before often, I raised this question with numerous teachers. So for the sake of clarity - *America does not honor, praise, acknowledge, or care about education across a wide spectrum. Find out why that is then get back to us. And while you are at it, figure out why science such as global warming and evolution are still controversial in a presumably intelligent nation.
> 
> Asian children do well in the same schools you belittle, so do bright or motivated students. Again why. Maybe because most Americas worship money, sports, image, etc in that order, education comes somewhere down the line possibly just ahead of religion. The youtube above says it pretty clearly.
> 
> Re: Finland "Not surprisingly, in a land where literacy and numeracy are considered virtues, teachers are revered. Teenagers ranked teaching at the top of their list of favorite professions in a recent survey. Far more graduates of upper schools in Finland apply for admission to teacher-training institutes than are accepted. The overwhelming majority of those who eventually enter the classroom as a teacher make it a lifelong career, even though they are paid no more than their counterparts in other European countries." Lessons From Finland: The Way to Education Excellence | CommonDreams.org
> 
> "At the heart of Finland's stellar reputation is a philosophy completely alien to America. The country of 5.3 million in an area twice the size of Missouri considers education an end in itself - not a means to an end. It's a deeply rooted value that is reflected in the Ministry of Education and in all 432 municipalities. In sharp contrast, Americans view education as a stepping stone to better-paying jobs or to impress others. The distinction explains why we are obsessed with marquee names, and how we structure, operate and fund schools."
> 
> http://www.usmessageboard.com/educa...liberals-in-the-classroom-11.html#post1749647
> 
> 
> 
> Repost:  From 'Notebook, A Quibble,' By Mark Slouka
> 
> "I was raised to be ashamed of my ignorance, and to try to do something about it if at all possible. I carry that burden to this day, and have successfully passed it on to my children. I dont believe I have the right to an opinion about something I know nothing aboutconstitutional law, for example, or sailinga notion that puts me sadly out of step with a growing majority of my countrymen, many of whom may be unable to tell you anything at all about Islam, say, or socialism, or climate change, except that they hate it, are against it, dont believe in it. Worse still (or more amusing, depending on the day) are those who can tell you, and then offer up a stew of New Age blather, right-wing rant, and bloggers speculation thats so divorced from actual, demonstrable fact, thats so not true, as the kids would say, that the mind goes numb with wonder. Way I see it is, a man in the Tulsa Motel 6 swimming pool told me last summer, if English was good enough for Jesus Christ, its good enough for us.
> 
> Quite possibly, this belief in our own opinion, regardless of the facts, may be what separates us from the nations of the world, what makes us unique in Gods eyes. The average German or Czech, though possibly no less ignorant than his American counterpart, will probably consider the possibility that someone who has spent his life studying something may have an opinion worth considering. Not the American. Although perfectly willing to recognize expertise in basketball, for example, or refrigerator repair, when it comes to the realm of ideas, all folks (and their opinions) are suddenly equal. Thus evolution is a damned lie, global warming a liberal hoax, and Republicans care about people like you."
> 
> Article appeared in Notesbook. Harper's Magazine*
> 
> 
> 
> *
> 
> So, as I sit at your feet to learn, oh great one, am I correct that your analysis is that teachers are great, students are just spacey- in both public school and private schools, and there really is no problem with education in the US....
> 
> And the rule of thumb is that studies only find the answer they were looking for, and only lib studies are ethical and objective.
> 
> Brilliant, simply brilliant.
> 
> And the national bird is the ostrich?*
Click to expand...

*

Note to Truthmatters:

PC is making a joke about the Ostrich being the National Bird.

*


----------



## PoliticalChic

Samson said:


> PoliticalChic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> midcan5 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Egad this is tiring. So in the interest of not wasting time on those who live in America but seem to think in outer space, please allow me to re-post the following replies and link to original debates. PS I know many many teachers and it sure ain't their problem, and this goes for private schools too where the American kids are just as spacey as their parents.
> 
> Post #12 http://www.usmessageboard.com/education-and-history/108215-education-then-and-now.html
> 
> ===========
> 
> When you make a joke on a noble profession expect an answer.
> 
> You miss the point with your constant attempts to pin the blame on others.  Sorry reality is so tough for you, but face it this is America when home schooling and Christian schools are praised for reasons that contradict the very purpose of education.
> 
> Again this is America, when was the last time you saw any ad or information on TV praising education or the people who work hard at it? When was the last time you saw teachers referred to as professionals. See ? below. Occasionally there are stories on individual people who make a difference but this is bigger than them. Jonathan Kozol is superb.
> 
> I have never watched 'Glee' but it appears to me to be about extracurricular activities and not about school. Am I wrong? This is where our values come from or are displayed.
> 
> One of our sons taught math in HS and quickly gave it up as most of the children had no interest in the subject and were plainly obnoxious. Math means nothing to a person who can hit a three point shot. Only the advanced classes were a pleasure.
> 
> Maybe we need to teach golf, basketball, football, soccer, baseball, and for the 99.5% who won't make a living on any of the above, ditch digging and litter pick ups techniques for the great majority. Oh and whining too, Americans do that well.
> 
> The Finland information above demonstrates the whys. Do you think the Fins want to shoot basketballs or kick soccer balls after school or do they study.
> 
> In America, vacation and sports activities come before education, ask any teacher. And oddly we are a fat nation, maybe we need to add eating to the curriculum. TV watching would be a biggie too. We can all watch Fox and be sacred and fat and dumb too. Glenn Beck could turn anyone into a retard.
> 
> Every American knows a dummy who got rich, why even Gates dropped out of school. These memes, these values are written in our constitution of life. Listen sometime. 'My uncle has a cash store and he makes lots of money, so dats wat I wanna do.'
> 
> One teacher asked me to ask the audience here, when was the last time they asked for an 'appointment' with a teacher for a conference concerning their little Joanie (for whatever) or did not just expect the teacher - the professional - to hear their poop on why little Joanie didn't give a fluck about her education or didn't have her homework cause she was too tired. Usually the parents blame the teacher cause little Joanie's grades are sad. Egad, doesn't that sound familiar!
> 
> PS I taught too after school more on that maybe later.
> 
> 
> A Nation of Morons - TurnOffYourTV.com
> Amazon.com: Dumbing Us Down: The Hidden Curriculum of Compulsory Schooling (9780865714489): John Taylor Gatto, Thomas Moore: Books
> Dumbest Generation Home
> Amazon.com: High-Tech Heretic: Reflections of a Computer Contrarian (9780385489768): Clifford Stoll: Books
> Are children getting dumber?  Prospect Magazine
> Amazon.com: The Dumbest Generation: How the Digital Age Stupefies Young Americans and Jeopardizes Our Future (Or, Don't Trust Anyone Under 30) (9781585426393): Mark Bauerlein: Books
> 
> 
> xxxx
> 
> Refute what?  Surveys that find what they are looking for are hardly proof of anything. It isn't personal as I know lots of teachers and all would say the same thing. You assume you know something you don't. It doesn't follow that government is the cause of all things bad and ugly.
> 
> Since we discussed this before often, I raised this question with numerous teachers. So for the sake of clarity - *America does not honor, praise, acknowledge, or care about education across a wide spectrum. Find out why that is then get back to us. And while you are at it, figure out why science such as global warming and evolution are still controversial in a presumably intelligent nation.
> 
> Asian children do well in the same schools you belittle, so do bright or motivated students. Again why. Maybe because most Americas worship money, sports, image, etc in that order, education comes somewhere down the line possibly just ahead of religion. The youtube above says it pretty clearly.
> 
> Re: Finland "Not surprisingly, in a land where literacy and numeracy are considered virtues, teachers are revered. Teenagers ranked teaching at the top of their list of favorite professions in a recent survey. Far more graduates of upper schools in Finland apply for admission to teacher-training institutes than are accepted. The overwhelming majority of those who eventually enter the classroom as a teacher make it a lifelong career, even though they are paid no more than their counterparts in other European countries." Lessons From Finland: The Way to Education Excellence | CommonDreams.org
> 
> "At the heart of Finland's stellar reputation is a philosophy completely alien to America. The country of 5.3 million in an area twice the size of Missouri considers education an end in itself - not a means to an end. It's a deeply rooted value that is reflected in the Ministry of Education and in all 432 municipalities. In sharp contrast, Americans view education as a stepping stone to better-paying jobs or to impress others. The distinction explains why we are obsessed with marquee names, and how we structure, operate and fund schools."
> 
> http://www.usmessageboard.com/educa...liberals-in-the-classroom-11.html#post1749647
> 
> 
> 
> Repost:  From 'Notebook, A Quibble,' By Mark Slouka
> 
> "I was raised to be ashamed of my ignorance, and to try to do something about it if at all possible. I carry that burden to this day, and have successfully passed it on to my children. I dont believe I have the right to an opinion about something I know nothing aboutconstitutional law, for example, or sailinga notion that puts me sadly out of step with a growing majority of my countrymen, many of whom may be unable to tell you anything at all about Islam, say, or socialism, or climate change, except that they hate it, are against it, dont believe in it. Worse still (or more amusing, depending on the day) are those who can tell you, and then offer up a stew of New Age blather, right-wing rant, and bloggers speculation thats so divorced from actual, demonstrable fact, thats so not true, as the kids would say, that the mind goes numb with wonder. Way I see it is, a man in the Tulsa Motel 6 swimming pool told me last summer, if English was good enough for Jesus Christ, its good enough for us.
> 
> Quite possibly, this belief in our own opinion, regardless of the facts, may be what separates us from the nations of the world, what makes us unique in Gods eyes. The average German or Czech, though possibly no less ignorant than his American counterpart, will probably consider the possibility that someone who has spent his life studying something may have an opinion worth considering. Not the American. Although perfectly willing to recognize expertise in basketball, for example, or refrigerator repair, when it comes to the realm of ideas, all folks (and their opinions) are suddenly equal. Thus evolution is a damned lie, global warming a liberal hoax, and Republicans care about people like you."
> 
> Article appeared in Notesbook. Harper's Magazine*
> 
> 
> 
> *
> 
> So, as I sit at your feet to learn, oh great one, am I correct that your analysis is that teachers are great, students are just spacey- in both public school and private schools, and there really is no problem with education in the US....
> 
> And the rule of thumb is that studies only find the answer they were looking for, and only lib studies are ethical and objective.
> 
> Brilliant, simply brilliant.
> 
> And the national bird is the ostrich?*
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> *
> 
> Note to Truthmatters:
> 
> PC is making a joke about the Ostrich being the National Bird.
> 
> *
Click to expand...

*

Oh, so now I have to be an accompice in your muggings???*


----------



## antagon

chanel said:


> Dr Grump said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> chanel said:
> 
> 
> 
> 28 percent of my district is classified special ed. Do foreign countries include the handicapped in their stats? Just sayin...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ???? How do they define handicapped? 28 percent of the district? Does America have special districts where handicapped kids go? That seems unusually high......
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> It can be anything from a minor speech impediment to bipolar disorder to blindness.  Our numbers are unusually high.  Severely handicapped kids go to alternative schools which average around $60K per student with transportation and related services.  The rest are educated in regular schools but all test scores are attached to their neighborhood school, regardless of where they actually go.
> 
> I attribute our high numbers to substance abuse/child abuse.  No coincidence there.  Much of the damage is done in utero; and the rest is probably a result of neglect in the early years. Most druggies just want someone to feed and watch their kids for seven hours.  If they learn something, great.  If not, that's ok too.  Welfare and/or seasonal unemployment isn't anything to be ashamed of anymore.  It's a career choice for many which requires no skills or education and has a very lucrative health insurance plan.
> 
> Schools are for students that want to improve their circumstances and become contributing members of society.  There is little incentive to do that anymore.
> 
> But I take these stats with a grain of salt.  We are not comparing apples to apples even within our own country.  There are still many, many brilliant kids coming out of our public high schools.  These kids have families and communities that value education.  No coincidence there either.
Click to expand...


this is full of excuses.  typical of public education.  while public schools might be daycare for some kids, its welfare for some teachers and administrators who are satisfied with their mediocrity and that of their product.


----------



## saveliberty

The whole public school system is broke.  Parents lack expectations of their children to learn and demonstrate that by showing up to Johnny's games, but not his conferences.  The only time the teacher deserves attention is when they suggest he be held back a grade.

Teachers allow unions to protect the underqualified and unmotivated.  They don't insist on students meeting their standards and instilling a love of learnig where thay can.

Adminstrators, well they are political animals.  Enough said.

Create a system that rewards those with merit and has consequences for those who fail.  That covers all of the above parties.  Why do children fail?  Because they look at all we have and how stupid we are.  Why would they expect it needs to be any different for them?


----------



## Samson

saveliberty said:


> The whole public school system is broke



Actually:







The numbers of educated Americans has been rising since 1950.


----------



## saveliberty

Samson said:


> saveliberty said:
> 
> 
> 
> The whole public school system is broke
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Actually:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The numbers of educated Americans has been rising since 1950.
Click to expand...


Educated?  Most people who graduated the eighth grade in the 1950s have better math and reading skills than today's high school graduates.  Lowering  the bar makes your graph look better and that is it.  You realize this right?  Maybe your just a victim of new math.  I know they skim over how to make a graph now.


----------



## Samson

saveliberty said:


> Educated?  Most people who graduated the eighth grade in the 1950s have better math and reading skills than today's high school graduates.  Lowering  the bar makes your graph look better and that is it.  You realize this right?  Maybe your just a victim of new math.  I know they skim over how to make a graph now.



Frankly I wasn't terribly impressed with the graph.

Regardless of math skill level of a 1950 8th grader vs a 2006 High school graduate:






Today a college graduate makes more than an 8th grader.

To get into college, students must first succeed in High School: Obviously if "The Whole Public School System" were broke, then there would be no premium placed on higher degrees in the labor market.


----------



## saveliberty

Just because people like you and me can achieve dispite a broke elementary and secondary school system, isn't an endorsement of the system.  I was fairly specific on what I saw as shortcomings of the system.  Do you care to debate them?  I do find you make great posts most of the time.  Perhaps this is a case of we agree to disagree.


----------



## Samson

saveliberty said:


> Just because people like you and me can achieve dispite a broke elementary and secondary school system, isn't an endorsement of the system.  I was fairly specific on what I saw as shortcomings of the system.  Do you care to debate them?  I do find you make great posts most of the time.  Perhaps this is a case of we agree to disagree.



I'm not certain I disagree with you: There are certainly many aspects of Public Education that seem to be ineffective, including those you mentioned.

But it appears that smart kids are able to persevere despite handicaps inherent in the system..e.g...Lincoln had no High School Education, and he managed quite well.

So, lets examine the ......"less smart" kids.

How "Good" of a teacher do they need? How "Good" can their parents be expected to be? How much do we really want to spend on them?

It appears that the answer is:

A. they don't really need GREAT teachers; degreed babysitters will suffice, 
B. they'll never really have GREAT parents, and as a consequence, 
C. we really don't need to spend much more on them than is needed to keep up appearances, and to foster the occasional success story that will appear in the Media, tugging on the heartstrings, and convincing the masses that there is hope.

The alternative you suggest:



> Create a system that rewards those with merit and has consequences for those who fail. That covers all of the above parties.



Would be great: But would the results be any different than what we have now? Those that become more educated earn more money.....students, their parents, and TEACHERS already know this.


----------



## Charles Stucker

saveliberty said:


> Just because people like you and me can achieve dispite a broke elementary and secondary school system, isn't an endorsement of the system.  I was fairly specific on what I saw as shortcomings of the system.  Do you care to debate them?  I do find you make great posts most of the time.  Perhaps this is a case of we agree to disagree.



Schools no longer have the luxury of recruiting the best and brightest to be teachers. Before women's liberation the big professional careers were nursing and teaching, so the teaching field could choose from among the very best. That is no longer the case and effective teaching is difficult, made more so by endless government mandated paperwork (of no value) which drives away those who would otherwise make good teachers.

At the same time crack babies, Down's Syndrome children and countless other 'special needs' children flood the classes because of the moronic 'No Child Left Behind' policy. Couple that with administrations which limit teachers to failing no more than one student per class (otherwise you're not teaching effectively) and the result is clear. Two brain damaged kids hold back the entire class as no one has to exceed their level of ability. I have no desire to deny the mentally handicapped a chance at whatever education they can obtain, but when it impacts all the other students then I object.

Teaching at academia suffers from "the latest thing" because the drive to produce new ideas for dissertations guarantees crackpot theories that only work for unusual individuals filter into mainstream educational repertoire; this is so successful that many modern teachers will argue the method the Red Cross uses to teach swimming is not applicable to the classroom. Even though that same methodology was used throughout the latter 19th century. 

Several other problems exist; unconcerned parents, gangs, drugs, cell phones (and texting), lawyers pushing suits when schools try to instill any level of discipline in rowdy brats, and inept politicians attempting to direct from the national level when schools are best handled at the local level. 

The solution to the problem is to force the politicians and lawyers out of the classroom, break the NEA and remake it from better material, get parents interested in their kids, and hold students to standards. If that means little Johnny has to repeat third grade, then Johnny gets held back.


----------



## PoliticalChic

Samson said:


> saveliberty said:
> 
> 
> 
> The whole public school system is broke
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Actually:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The numbers of educated Americans has been rising since 1950.
Click to expand...


Total nonsense.

The graph is obviated by the fact that standards are lowered so that a)less material is tested and 'taught'  and b) passing grades are lowered.

And, of course, remedial courses are de rigueur in colleges and universities. And grade inflation is rampant.

A more accurate measurement would be a comparison of international exams and where our students line up versus those of other nations.

To be correct, you would have to change your post from "educated Americans" to some form of "graduated Americans."  The two are far from synonymous.


----------



## Samson

PoliticalChic said:


> Samson said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> saveliberty said:
> 
> 
> 
> The whole public school system is broke
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Actually:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The numbers of educated Americans has been rising since 1950.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> A more accurate measurement would be a comparison of international exams and where our students line up versus those of other nations.
Click to expand...


A "more accurate measurement?" 

That would confrim what? That the USA is a different nation than Korea and Italy?

OK......I'll play along with your little fantacy of pretending the USA and every other country on the planet has the same sociological issues.

So where is it?


----------



## Samson

Charles Stucker said:


> Schools no longer have the luxury of recruiting the best and brightest to be teachers. Before women's liberation the big professional careers were nursing and teaching, so the teaching field could choose from among the very best. That is no longer the case and effective teaching is difficult, made more so by endless government mandated paperwork (of no value) which drives away those who would otherwise make good teachers..



Excellent point, and one that Most Academians will obscure because it highlights a disadvatage to Wimmins Liberation. Usually this is held forth with the following: Nursing and Teaching were underpaid positions before Wimmins Lib, and unfairly remain so because of continuing bias towards Wimmins. Thus, we ignore the fact that many Wimmins have entered a labor market where the competing salaries, based on the VALUE OF THE LABOR, allows them more lucrative career choices. We also ignore the fact that many Wimmins (and Mens) CHOOSE to be teachers DESPITE the lower pay. Why? Take your pick of reasons, but having almost 3 months off working a year may be one.



Charles Stucker said:


> At the same time crack babies, Down's Syndrome children and countless other 'special needs' children flood the classes because of the moronic 'No Child Left Behind' policy. Couple that with administrations which limit teachers to failing no more than one student per class (otherwise you're not teaching effectively) and the result is clear. Two brain damaged kids hold back the entire class as no one has to exceed their level of ability. I have no desire to deny the mentally handicapped a chance at whatever education they can obtain, but when it impacts all the other students then I object..



You're making a common error: NCLB has little to do with the Individuals with Disabilities Education Act signed, rather reluctantly, by Gerald Ford. In actual practice, there were initially few students that qualified as "special ed." However, there are an increasing number of Autistic Kids, or why ADD, ADHD, OBD, CD, Bi-Polar, OCD, and an ever growing list of Mental Disorders seem to have decended like Plagues Upon the Land of the Brave. Do you wonder why? I'll let you guess, (_Hint: Its not because we're devolving into chimpanzees_)



Charles Stucker said:


> Teaching at academia suffers from "the latest thing" because the drive to produce new ideas for dissertations guarantees crackpot theories that only work for unusual individuals filter into mainstream educational repertoire; this is so successful that many modern teachers will argue the method the Red Cross uses to teach swimming is not applicable to the classroom. Even though that same methodology was used throughout the latter 19th century..



One man's crackpot theory is another man's Law of Gravity. The whole purpose of academia is to render forth "Crack-pot" theories.



Charles Stucker said:


> Several other problems exist; unconcerned parents, gangs, drugs, cell phones (and texting), lawyers pushing suits when schools try to instill any level of discipline in rowdy brats, and inept politicians attempting to direct from the national level when schools are best handled at the local level..



MOST parents are very concerned about their offspring. I usually shy away from blaming "society" for anything, because it seems like a pussy excuse, but I must point out something here that IS a sociological disorder: Teenagers are being treated like Adults. I think this is a product of having laws allowing teenagers to be drafted, to vote, to drink, to drive, and a number of other responsibilities that would have astonished the world 50 years ago. 



Charles Stucker said:


> The solution to the problem is to force the politicians and lawyers out of the classroom, break the NEA and remake it from better material, get parents interested in their kids, and hold students to standards. If that means little Johnny has to repeat third grade, then Johnny gets held back.



Hmmm..........so, _*you*_ wanna teach a classroom of Johnny's?


----------



## Charles Stucker

Samson said:


> One man's crackpot theory is another man's Law of Gravity. The whole purpose of academia is to render forth "Crack-pot" theories.


Education, like many social "sciences" faces a particular limitation on testing theories; it is impossible to isolate variables and provide rigorous, reproducible tests of theories. Too often the "theory" which is now touted was a success only because of the particular combination of teacher, administration and students. When it is applied by the masses of teachers it only results in confusion; something along the lines of the military axiom- Order, Counter Order, Disorder.



Samson said:


> Hmmm..........so, _*you*_ wanna teach a classroom of Johnny's?


No, but holding back the underachievers is the only way to instill a sense of consequence in some students. If the weakest half of the students failed, as they probably should, only the entry level would be hit with extra students, and then only for a year because the students, held to standards, would adapt.


----------



## Dr.Traveler

Charles Stucker said:


> No, but holding back the underachievers is the only way to instill a sense of consequence in some students. If the weakest half of the students failed, as they probably should, only the entry level would be hit with extra students, and then only for a year because the students, held to standards, would adapt.



Drive by post:

I know that "Social Promotion" is the boogey man in a lot of debates about the failure of Public schools, but something to think about:

1.  When Teachers make a decision to hold back a student, it is often most contested by the Parents.  Social Promotion occurs because Parents insist it isn't little Johnny's fault, and the Administration caves.  If you want to end Social Promotion, then you'll have to convince parents first.

2.  Social promotion stops being an issue once a student hits High School.  At that point forward class rank is figured by credit hours earned, eliminating social promotion for the most part.  Perhaps we need to take a similar approach earlier on.


----------



## Samson

Charles Stucker said:


> Samson said:
> 
> 
> 
> One man's crackpot theory is another man's Law of Gravity. The whole purpose of academia is to render forth "Crack-pot" theories.
> 
> 
> 
> Education, like many social "sciences" faces a particular limitation on testing theories; it is impossible to isolate variables and provide rigorous, reproducible tests of theories. Too often the "theory" which is now touted was a success only because of the particular combination of teacher, administration and students. When it is applied by the masses of teachers it only results in confusion; something along the lines of the military axiom- Order, Counter Order, Disorder.
Click to expand...


Yes.

Not sure what point you're making?

Should social sciences NOT test theories?



Charles Stucker said:


> Samson said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hmmm..........so, _*you*_ wanna teach a classroom of Johnny's?
> 
> 
> 
> No, but holding back the underachievers is the only way to instill a sense of consequence in some students. If the weakest half of the students failed, as they probably should, only the entry level would be hit with extra students, and then only for a year because the students, held to standards, would adapt.
Click to expand...


There is no evidence to support your assertaion that holding back underachievers will do anything but allow them to more concretely define themselves as underachievers.

But, let's imagine that threatening underachievers with underachievement might motivate and underachiever.

And let's imagine that teachers who have a underachieving student for 9 months, cannot wait to get another crack at them AGAIN.

And let's imagine classrooms have unlimited space in which to deposite underachievers.

And let's imagine parents of underachieving students will be just tickled pink to pick up their living expenses for an additional year of public schooling.

You've already pointed out the difficulties associated with having Special Ed kids in a room already full of "normals." Don't you think that having an 8th grader that's beginning to shave (or worse) might be distracting in a 6th grade class?


----------



## Charles Stucker

Dr.Traveler said:


> 2.  Social promotion stops being an issue once a student hits High School.  At that point forward class rank is figured by credit hours earned, eliminating social promotion for the most part.  Perhaps we need to take a similar approach earlier on.


Actually Dallas had a long standing rule that no more than one student could be failed in a given high school class. Which gave rise to the classic you don't have to run faster than the bear type of scenarios; students did not have to master the material to pass, they just had to do a tiny bit more than the weakest student. I understand that for a few years (early 80"s?) DISD had a no failure rule and everyone passed every class if they attended regularly. 

Yes we do need to have a procedure where failing students are held back and the administration must back the teachers on these decisions. Of course as soon as the lawyers step in.........


----------



## Samson

Charles Stucker said:


> Dr.Traveler said:
> 
> 
> 
> 2.  Social promotion stops being an issue once a student hits High School.  At that point forward class rank is figured by credit hours earned, eliminating social promotion for the most part.  Perhaps we need to take a similar approach earlier on.
> 
> 
> 
> Actually Dallas had a long standing rule that no more than one student could be failed in a given high school class. Which gave rise to the classic you don't have to run faster than the bear type of scenarios; students did not have to master the material to pass, they just had to do a tiny bit more than the weakest student. I understand that for a few years (early 80"s?) DISD had a no failure rule and everyone passed every class if they attended regularly.
> 
> Yes we do need to have a procedure where failing students are held back and the administration must back the teachers on these decisions. Of course as soon as the lawyers step in.........
Click to expand...


Social Promotion has nothing or little to do with it.

Retaining students is not only a logistical nightmare but is also not effective. 

Except maybe in ONE case, that I'll grant you: Retaining Kindergartners.

There is smoething to be said for simply allowing kids at this age to mature another year, and it can be done without creating monsterous results in the classroom.


----------



## PoliticalChic

Charles Stucker said:


> Samson said:
> 
> 
> 
> One man's crackpot theory is another man's Law of Gravity. The whole purpose of academia is to render forth "Crack-pot" theories.
> 
> 
> 
> Education, like many social "sciences" faces a particular limitation on testing theories; it is impossible to isolate variables and provide rigorous, reproducible tests of theories. Too often the "theory" which is now touted was a success only because of the particular combination of teacher, administration and students. When it is applied by the masses of teachers it only results in confusion; something along the lines of the military axiom- Order, Counter Order, Disorder.
> 
> 
> 
> Samson said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hmmm..........so, _*you*_ wanna teach a classroom of Johnny's?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> No, but holding back the underachievers is the only way to instill a sense of consequence in some students. If the weakest half of the students failed, as they probably should, only the entry level would be hit with extra students, and then only for a year because the students, held to standards, would adapt.
Click to expand...


1. "...it is impossible to isolate variables and provide rigorous, reproducible tests of theories."
The solution to  this is to tie ed funds to the student and allow the parent to choose any schooling that they see fit, as we did with the G.I. Bill
Testing will sort out the successful venues.

2. "...holding back the underachievers is the only way to instill a sense of consequence."
Since most ed schools teach that the above is untrue...

"Fifty-nine percent, for example, think academic sanctions such as the threat of flunking or being held back are not important to motivating kids to learn. Professors of Education: It's How You Learn, Not What You Learn That's Most Important | Public Agenda

...here is a solution to this: do away with ed schools, allow open admission to the teaching profession, based on the following, and use student grades to determine teacher's tenure.


There is no convincing evidence that certified teachers are more effective in the classroom or that ed-school-based training helps. Education Schools Project

See http://www.dartmouth.edu/~dstaiger/Papers/nyc fellows march 2006.pdf for evidence that certification has very little effect on student achievement.

private schools appear to do fine- perhaps better-without being compelled to hire state certified teachers. Chester Finn, Troublemaker, p. 283.

The American Board for Certification of Teacher Excellence proposed the following requirements alone for a teaching license: graduate college, pass a criminal background check, and a rigorous test of knowledge of their subject.


----------



## saveliberty

Samson said:


> Charles Stucker said:
> 
> 
> 
> Schools no longer have the luxury of recruiting the best and brightest to be teachers. Before women's liberation the big professional careers were nursing and teaching, so the teaching field could choose from among the very best. That is no longer the case and effective teaching is difficult, made more so by endless government mandated paperwork (of no value) which drives away those who would otherwise make good teachers..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Excellent point, and one that Most Academians will obscure because it highlights a disadvatage to Wimmins Liberation. Usually this is held forth with the following: Nursing and Teaching were underpaid positions before Wimmins Lib, and unfairly remain so because of continuing bias towards Wimmins. Thus, we ignore the fact that many Wimmins have entered a labor market where the competing salaries, based on the VALUE OF THE LABOR, allows them more lucrative career choices. We also ignore the fact that many Wimmins (and Mens) CHOOSE to be teachers DESPITE the lower pay. Why? Take your pick of reasons, but having almost 3 months off working a year may be one.
> 
> 
> 
> Charles Stucker said:
> 
> 
> 
> At the same time crack babies, Down's Syndrome children and countless other 'special needs' children flood the classes because of the moronic 'No Child Left Behind' policy. Couple that with administrations which limit teachers to failing no more than one student per class (otherwise you're not teaching effectively) and the result is clear. Two brain damaged kids hold back the entire class as no one has to exceed their level of ability. I have no desire to deny the mentally handicapped a chance at whatever education they can obtain, but when it impacts all the other students then I object..
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You're making a common error: NCLB has little to do with the Individuals with Disabilities Education Act signed, rather reluctantly, by Gerald Ford. In actual practice, there were initially few students that qualified as "special ed." However, there are an increasing number of Autistic Kids, or why ADD, ADHD, OBD, CD, Bi-Polar, OCD, and an ever growing list of Mental Disorders seem to have decended like Plagues Upon the Land of the Brave. Do you wonder why? I'll let you guess, (_Hint: Its not because we're devolving into chimpanzees_)
> 
> 
> 
> One man's crackpot theory is another man's Law of Gravity. The whole purpose of academia is to render forth "Crack-pot" theories.
> 
> 
> 
> Charles Stucker said:
> 
> 
> 
> Several other problems exist; unconcerned parents, gangs, drugs, cell phones (and texting), lawyers pushing suits when schools try to instill any level of discipline in rowdy brats, and inept politicians attempting to direct from the national level when schools are best handled at the local level..
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> MOST parents are very concerned about their offspring. I usually shy away from blaming "society" for anything, because it seems like a pussy excuse, but I must point out something here that IS a sociological disorder: Teenagers are being treated like Adults. I think this is a product of having laws allowing teenagers to be drafted, to vote, to drink, to drive, and a number of other responsibilities that would have astonished the world 50 years ago.
> 
> 
> 
> Charles Stucker said:
> 
> 
> 
> The solution to the problem is to force the politicians and lawyers out of the classroom, break the NEA and remake it from better material, get parents interested in their kids, and hold students to standards. If that means little Johnny has to repeat third grade, then Johnny gets held back.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Hmmm..........so, _*you*_ wanna teach a classroom of Johnny's?
Click to expand...


I had a teaching degree from college.  Do I want to teach anymore?  Sure, my classroom, my rules.  Question is...can the student and parents handle that?


----------



## Samson

PoliticalChic said:


> Charles Stucker said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Samson said:
> 
> 
> 
> One man's crackpot theory is another man's Law of Gravity. The whole purpose of academia is to render forth "Crack-pot" theories.
> 
> 
> 
> Education, like many social "sciences" faces a particular limitation on testing theories; it is impossible to isolate variables and provide rigorous, reproducible tests of theories. Too often the "theory" which is now touted was a success only because of the particular combination of teacher, administration and students. When it is applied by the masses of teachers it only results in confusion; something along the lines of the military axiom- Order, Counter Order, Disorder.
> 
> 
> 
> Samson said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hmmm..........so, _*you*_ wanna teach a classroom of Johnny's?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> No, but holding back the underachievers is the only way to instill a sense of consequence in some students. If the weakest half of the students failed, as they probably should, only the entry level would be hit with extra students, and then only for a year because the students, held to standards, would adapt.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 1. "...it is impossible to isolate variables and provide rigorous, reproducible tests of theories."
> The solution to  this is to tie ed funds to the student and allow the parent to choose any schooling that they see fit, as we did with the G.I. Bill
> Testing will sort out the successful venues.
> 
> 2. "...holding back the underachievers is the only way to instill a sense of consequence."
> Since most ed schools teach that the above is untrue...
> 
> "Fifty-nine percent, for example, think academic sanctions such as the threat of flunking or being held back are not important to motivating kids to learn. Professors of Education: It's How You Learn, Not What You Learn That's Most Important | Public Agenda
> 
> ...here is a solution to this: do away with ed schools, allow open admission to the teaching profession, based on the following, and use student grades to determine teacher's tenure.
> 
> 
> There is no convincing evidence that certified teachers are more effective in the classroom or that ed-school-based training helps. Education Schools Project
> 
> See http://www.dartmouth.edu/~dstaiger/Papers/nyc fellows march 2006.pdf for evidence that certification has very little effect on student achievement.
> 
> private schools appear to do fine- perhaps better-without being compelled to hire state certified teachers. Chester Finn, Troublemaker, p. 283.
> 
> The American Board for Certification of Teacher Excellence proposed the following requirements alone for a teaching license: graduate college, pass a criminal background check, and a rigorous test of knowledge of their subject.
Click to expand...


After wading through your customary muck of opinion based opinion, I'm still not certain if you have a point?

Was this it?



> ...here is a solution to this: do away with ed schools, allow open admission to the teaching profession, based on the following, and use student grades to determine teacher's tenure.



I agree, an BA Ed is completely worthless, and shouldn't be offered. Teacher Certification is a State Rsponsibility: there are already ways to become certified without a BA Ed.

So, if we use student grades to determine teacher's "tenure" why would anyone wanna teach 1st grade?


----------



## Samson

saveliberty said:


> Samson said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Charles Stucker said:
> 
> 
> 
> Schools no longer have the luxury of recruiting the best and brightest to be teachers. Before women's liberation the big professional careers were nursing and teaching, so the teaching field could choose from among the very best. That is no longer the case and effective teaching is difficult, made more so by endless government mandated paperwork (of no value) which drives away those who would otherwise make good teachers..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Excellent point, and one that Most Academians will obscure because it highlights a disadvatage to Wimmins Liberation. Usually this is held forth with the following: Nursing and Teaching were underpaid positions before Wimmins Lib, and unfairly remain so because of continuing bias towards Wimmins. Thus, we ignore the fact that many Wimmins have entered a labor market where the competing salaries, based on the VALUE OF THE LABOR, allows them more lucrative career choices. We also ignore the fact that many Wimmins (and Mens) CHOOSE to be teachers DESPITE the lower pay. Why? Take your pick of reasons, but having almost 3 months off working a year may be one.
> 
> 
> 
> You're making a common error: NCLB has little to do with the Individuals with Disabilities Education Act signed, rather reluctantly, by Gerald Ford. In actual practice, there were initially few students that qualified as "special ed." However, there are an increasing number of Autistic Kids, or why ADD, ADHD, OBD, CD, Bi-Polar, OCD, and an ever growing list of Mental Disorders seem to have decended like Plagues Upon the Land of the Brave. Do you wonder why? I'll let you guess, (_Hint: Its not because we're devolving into chimpanzees_)
> 
> 
> 
> One man's crackpot theory is another man's Law of Gravity. The whole purpose of academia is to render forth "Crack-pot" theories.
> 
> 
> 
> MOST parents are very concerned about their offspring. I usually shy away from blaming "society" for anything, because it seems like a pussy excuse, but I must point out something here that IS a sociological disorder: Teenagers are being treated like Adults. I think this is a product of having laws allowing teenagers to be drafted, to vote, to drink, to drive, and a number of other responsibilities that would have astonished the world 50 years ago.
> 
> 
> 
> Charles Stucker said:
> 
> 
> 
> The solution to the problem is to force the politicians and lawyers out of the classroom, break the NEA and remake it from better material, get parents interested in their kids, and hold students to standards. If that means little Johnny has to repeat third grade, then Johnny gets held back.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Hmmm..........so, _*you*_ wanna teach a classroom of Johnny's?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I had a teaching degree from college.  Do I want to teach anymore?  Sure, my classroom, my rules.  Question is...can the student and parents handle that?
Click to expand...


WTF are "your rules?"

Why do you even ask if "the student and parents handle that?"

As long as you're teaching approve curriculum, and following the school's discipline plan, they have no choice.


----------



## Dr.Traveler

PoliticalChic said:


> ...here is a solution to this: do away with ed schools, allow open admission to the teaching profession, based on the following, and use student grades to determine teacher's tenure.



Getting a teaching licsense isn't actually that hard, and many many many states have alternative certification procedures thanks to some very lean years in education.

The other point, tying a teacher's tenure to student grades, is a formula for disaster.  The degree of disaster is directly related to how much input the teacher has on student grades.  If you're tying a teacher's tenure to results from a standardized test, then the Administration can easily "fix" a teacher's class to deep six those that they don't like.  At the very least, the successful teacher will only teach the skills necessary to pass the test, which is not at all the same as teaching the skill necessary for success later.  If you're tying a teacher's tenure to the classroom grade, the bar will plummet.


----------



## PoliticalChic

Dr.Traveler said:


> PoliticalChic said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...here is a solution to this: do away with ed schools, allow open admission to the teaching profession, based on the following, and use student grades to determine teacher's tenure.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Getting a teaching licsense isn't actually that hard, and many many many states have alternative certification procedures thanks to some very lean years in education.
> 
> The other point, tying a teacher's tenure to student grades, is a formula for disaster.  The degree of disaster is directly related to how much input the teacher has on student grades.  If you're tying a teacher's tenure to results from a standardized test, then the Administration can easily "fix" a teacher's class to deep six those that they don't like.  At the very least, the successful teacher will only teach the skills necessary to pass the test, which is not at all the same as teaching the skill necessary for success later.  If you're tying a teacher's tenure to the classroom grade, the bar will plummet.
Click to expand...


1. "...Administration can easily "fix" a teacher's class to deep six those that they don't like."
I have heard similar critiques from many teachers, and there is probably a great deal of experience to this fear.
How about if we take this power out of the hands of administrators, and use a randomized computer program for selection, for assigning classes to teachers?

2. The Obama Administration's "Race to the Top" predicates monetary awards to states that correlate the student scores to the teacher they had.
I think that this is the only real way to rate teacher's ability.
Would this be more fair if the scores were not of one year, but of a set period so that more than one group of children were the basis of tenure decisions?

"Standardized tests produce rich sources of information that researchers can use to identify effective policies and practices. The data revolution, moreover, promises to move education policy away from politics. Numbers dont have agendas or run for reelection. Accurately collected and properly analyzed, data can reveal truths that escape our sight.

One such truth is the effectiveness of individual teachers. Data analysis is far from perfect, and no one argues that it should be used in isolation to make employment decisions. But modern techniques can help us distinguish between teachers whose students excel and teachers whose students languish or fail. Theres just one problem with the data revolution: it doesnt work without data."http://www.city-journal.org/2009/eon1214mw.html

"Oregon for the first time plans to connect student test scores to the teachers responsible for those students and make the results available to teachers, principals and researchers to help them judge teachers' effectiveness. 

Schools will be expected to use those results to improve teaching practices and could use them to help decide which teachers they should promote, give bonuses or let go. 

Those plans are laid out in Oregon's application to win a $200 million share of the Obama administration's $4 billion Race to the Top fund." 
EducationNews.org - Oregon to peg teacher ratings to student scores


----------



## PoliticalChic

Dr.Traveler said:


> PoliticalChic said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...here is a solution to this: do away with ed schools, allow open admission to the teaching profession, based on the following, and use student grades to determine teacher's tenure.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Getting a teaching licsense isn't actually that hard, and many many many states have alternative certification procedures thanks to some very lean years in education.
> 
> The other point, tying a teacher's tenure to student grades, is a formula for disaster.  The degree of disaster is directly related to how much input the teacher has on student grades.  If you're tying a teacher's tenure to results from a standardized test, then the Administration can easily "fix" a teacher's class to deep six those that they don't like.  At the very least, the successful teacher will only teach the skills necessary to pass the test, which is not at all the same as teaching the skill necessary for success later.  If you're tying a teacher's tenure to the classroom grade, the bar will plummet.
Click to expand...



"...the successful teacher will only teach the skills necessary to pass the test, which is not at all the same as teaching the skill necessary for success later."

Teaching to the test is deplored in education circles, although that complaint is easily answered: if the test faithfully mirrors the skills and knowledge set out in the standards, then preparing ones pupils to ace such a test is an honorable mission! 
From  Troublemaker, by Chester E. Finn, Jr. Former Assistant Secretary of Education under President Reagan.


----------



## saveliberty

Samson said:


> saveliberty said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Samson said:
> 
> 
> 
> Excellent point, and one that Most Academians will obscure because it highlights a disadvatage to Wimmins Liberation. Usually this is held forth with the following: Nursing and Teaching were underpaid positions before Wimmins Lib, and unfairly remain so because of continuing bias towards Wimmins. Thus, we ignore the fact that many Wimmins have entered a labor market where the competing salaries, based on the VALUE OF THE LABOR, allows them more lucrative career choices. We also ignore the fact that many Wimmins (and Mens) CHOOSE to be teachers DESPITE the lower pay. Why? Take your pick of reasons, but having almost 3 months off working a year may be one.
> 
> 
> 
> You're making a common error: NCLB has little to do with the Individuals with Disabilities Education Act signed, rather reluctantly, by Gerald Ford. In actual practice, there were initially few students that qualified as "special ed." However, there are an increasing number of Autistic Kids, or why ADD, ADHD, OBD, CD, Bi-Polar, OCD, and an ever growing list of Mental Disorders seem to have decended like Plagues Upon the Land of the Brave. Do you wonder why? I'll let you guess, (_Hint: Its not because we're devolving into chimpanzees_)
> 
> 
> 
> One man's crackpot theory is another man's Law of Gravity. The whole purpose of academia is to render forth "Crack-pot" theories.
> 
> 
> 
> MOST parents are very concerned about their offspring. I usually shy away from blaming "society" for anything, because it seems like a pussy excuse, but I must point out something here that IS a sociological disorder: Teenagers are being treated like Adults. I think this is a product of having laws allowing teenagers to be drafted, to vote, to drink, to drive, and a number of other responsibilities that would have astonished the world 50 years ago.
> 
> 
> 
> Hmmm..........so, _*you*_ wanna teach a classroom of Johnny's?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I had a teaching degree from college.  Do I want to teach anymore?  Sure, my classroom, my rules.  Question is...can the student and parents handle that?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> WTF are "your rules?"
> 
> Why do you even ask if "the student and parents handle that?"
> 
> As long as you're teaching approve curriculum, and following the school's discipline plan, they have no choice.
Click to expand...


1.  Do what I tell you to do, when I tell you to do it.
2.  Complete all classwork.
3.  Treat everyone in class with respect.
4.  If you don't understand the subject material ask a question.
5.  If you still have trouble, visit the classroom one hour before or after school.
6.  Show all your work to your parents, have them sign the work and return it to me.
7.  Parents make at least two contacts with me during the term.
8.  Failure to follow the rules will result in punishment that will involve working at the school in some type of school or community service.  Failure to comply means you are dropped from the course.
9.  Try with your best.


----------



## Samson

saveliberty said:


> Samson said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> saveliberty said:
> 
> 
> 
> I had a teaching degree from college.  Do I want to teach anymore?  Sure, my classroom, my rules.  Question is...can the student and parents handle that?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> WTF are "your rules?"
> 
> Why do you even ask if "the student and parents handle that?"
> 
> As long as you're teaching approve curriculum, and following the school's discipline plan, they have no choice.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 1.  Do what I tell you to do, when I tell you to do it.
> 2.  Complete all classwork.
> 3.  Treat everyone in class with respect.
> 4.  If you don't understand the subject material ask a question.
> 5.  If you still have trouble, visit the classroom one hour before or after school.
> 6.  Show all your work to your parents, have them sign the work and return it to me.
> 7.  Parents make at least two contacts with me during the term.
> 8.  Failure to follow the rules will result in punishment that will involve working at the school in some type of school or community service.  Failure to comply means you are dropped from the course.
> 9.  Try with your best.
Click to expand...


*LOL...#8*



"dropped from the course".......now that's funny.

You get that they are forced to be there, right?


----------



## manu1959

Dr Grump said:


> chanel said:
> 
> 
> 
> 28 percent of my district is classified special ed. Do foreign countries include the handicapped in their stats? Just sayin...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ???? How do they define handicapped? 28 percent of the district? Does America have special districts where handicapped kids go? That seems unusually high......
Click to expand...


ADD is handicapped....schools get extra funding for mainstreaing "hc" kids....and extr funding for "hc" kids ....so the have incentive to hang an alphabet label on your kid....


----------



## PoliticalChic

To the teachers who are contributing to this thread, today is a day to
celebrate a teacher who stood up for his principles, John Scopes:

1925 - An evolution law, enacted on this day in the great State of Tennessee, made it a crime for a teacher in any state-supported public school or college to teach any theory that contradicted the Bible&#8217;s account of man&#8217;s creation. Within two months, a Dayton, Tennessee high school science teacher, John T. Scopes was indicted, and later convicted, in the famous &#8216;Monkey Trial&#8217; for teaching his students the theory of evolution; that man descended from a lower order of animals ... or monkeys. Scopes was fined $100. Defense Attorney Clarence Darrow stated that this was &#8220;the first case of its kind since we stopped trying people for witchcraft.&#8221;


----------



## saveliberty

Samson said:


> saveliberty said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Samson said:
> 
> 
> 
> WTF are "your rules?"
> 
> Why do you even ask if "the student and parents handle that?"
> 
> As long as you're teaching approve curriculum, and following the school's discipline plan, they have no choice.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 1.  Do what I tell you to do, when I tell you to do it.
> 2.  Complete all classwork.
> 3.  Treat everyone in class with respect.
> 4.  If you don't understand the subject material ask a question.
> 5.  If you still have trouble, visit the classroom one hour before or after school.
> 6.  Show all your work to your parents, have them sign the work and return it to me.
> 7.  Parents make at least two contacts with me during the term.
> 8.  Failure to follow the rules will result in punishment that will involve working at the school in some type of school or community service.  Failure to comply means you are dropped from the course.
> 9.  Try with your best.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> *LOL...#8*
> 
> 
> 
> "dropped from the course".......now that's funny.
> 
> You get that they are forced to be there, right?
Click to expand...


Maybe in your system they are.  You asked what mine was.  I told you.


----------



## Charles Stucker

Samson said:


> "dropped from the course".......now that's funny.
> 
> You get that they are forced to be there, right?



Perhaps that is the problem. 
Make school optional with the proviso that anyone who does not matriculate from High school is ineligible for any government assistance ever with a single exception - admission to a home for the mentally retarded, and then only if they are demonstrably incapable of living on their own.

Then up the standards as high as you like and the students will strive to meet the expectations because the parents will drive them. If they don't then they fall out and are not part of the problem - they can work menial jobs fro the rest of their life and never be a burden on the productive members of society because they never get any government benefits.  Prison can be viewed as a benefit as the alternative is death or expulsion from the country (the offenders choice, if they can find a country to accept them before judgment is rendered), we could go on in this vein for some time.

This is of course at least partly satire, I'll let the individual reader determine which parts are satire and which are not.

Students misbehavior, including poor performance, must have a consequence, or they are taught only how to be lazy whiners.


----------



## Samson

PoliticalChic said:


> 1. "...Administration can easily "fix" a teacher's class to deep six those that they don't like."
> I have heard similar critiques from many teachers, and there is probably a great deal of experience to this fear.
> How about if we take this power out of the hands of administrators, and use a randomized computer program for selection, for assigning classes to teachers?



"Power out of the hands of administrators?"

You guys realise that the administrators are there to supervise teachers, right?

School counsellors set up classes according to a dizzying array of criteria. Administrators have almost nothing to do with fixing which students attend what class.





PoliticalChic said:


> 2. The Obama Administration's "Race to the Top" predicates monetary awards to states that correlate the student scores to the teacher they had.
> I think that this is the only real way to rate teacher's ability.
> Would this be more fair if the scores were not of one year, but of a set period so that more than one group of children were the basis of tenure decisions?





You're kidding right?

Say you are The Best Teacher In The World.

The Class Bunny, "Bugs" dies during the week of the test.

No one can concentrate on all the Great Things You Have Taugh, because they are knashing teeth, tearing hair in anguish of Bugs' Unfortunate Demise.

Test results say YOU SUCK!

So you're fired.


----------



## Samson

Charles Stucker said:


> Samson said:
> 
> 
> 
> "dropped from the course".......now that's funny.
> 
> You get that they are forced to be there, right?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Perhaps that is the problem.
> Make school optional with the proviso that anyone who does not matriculate from High school is ineligible for any government assistance ever with a single exception - admission to a home for the mentally retarded, and then only if they are demonstrably incapable of living on their own..
Click to expand...


You are correct: Compulsory Education beyond 8th grade _IS_ the MAJOR problem.

After graduating from 8th grade, 15 year olds should have the choice of staying home and watching cartoons, spitting out kids, working, paying to attend college/college prep school, or attending a Public Vocational School (Free).


----------



## Dr.Traveler

PoliticalChic said:


> Teaching to the test is deplored in education circles, although that complaint is easily answered: if the test faithfully mirrors the skills and knowledge set out in the standards, then preparing ones pupils to ace such a test is an honorable mission!
> From  Troublemaker, by Chester E. Finn, Jr. Former Assistant Secretary of Education under President Reagan.



That sounds good on paper.  That's not a smart alleck comeback.  I've more to say, but I'm having trouble putting what I've seen in my experience to print in a coherent manner right now.  

I'll come back later and take a stab at it after the doctor's office.


----------



## Dr.Traveler

PoliticalChic said:


> Would this be more fair if the scores were not of one year, but of a set period so that more than one group of children were the basis of tenure decisions?



Yes.  And I don't mean to totally dismiss student outcomes as *a part* of a teacher's tenure.  Considering the job at the elementary and secondary level is education, that definitely should be part of the analysis.  How to assess that is the sticky point, and to be honest I don't think a single "fair" way exists.  Any method will have a potential for unfairness, the hope is that a "least unfair" method could be picked.


----------



## PoliticalChic

Samson said:


> PoliticalChic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 1. "...Administration can easily "fix" a teacher's class to deep six those that they don't like."
> I have heard similar critiques from many teachers, and there is probably a great deal of experience to this fear.
> How about if we take this power out of the hands of administrators, and use a randomized computer program for selection, for assigning classes to teachers?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "Power out of the hands of administrators?"
> 
> You guys realise that the administrators are there to supervise teachers, right?
> 
> School counsellors set up classes according to a dizzying array of criteria. Administrators have almost nothing to do with fixing which students attend what class.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PoliticalChic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 2. The Obama Administration's "Race to the Top" predicates monetary awards to states that correlate the student scores to the teacher they had.
> I think that this is the only real way to rate teacher's ability.
> Would this be more fair if the scores were not of one year, but of a set period so that more than one group of children were the basis of tenure decisions?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You're kidding right?
> 
> Say you are The Best Teacher In The World.
> 
> The Class Bunny, "Bugs" dies during the week of the test.
> 
> No one can concentrate on all the Great Things You Have Taugh, because they are knashing teeth, tearing hair in anguish of Bugs' Unfortunate Demise.
> 
> Test results say YOU SUCK!
> 
> So you're fired.
Click to expand...


"You guys realise that the administrators are there to supervise teachers, right?

School counsellors set up classes according to a dizzying array of criteria. Administrators have almost nothing to do with fixing which students attend what class."
What do administrators actually do that a computer-techie couldn't do, now that districts are going to use test scores to rate teachers?


"The Class Bunny, "Bugs" dies."
But he doesn't die every year...

So we surgically remove the ability of the teacher who perennially complains that she has the worst classes, and has the lowest passing percentages on standardized tests...
kind of puts the spotlight where it belongs.

Could you provide the name of the administrator who has to deal with your constant carping, so that I can send him or her the "Long Suffering" Award.


----------



## antagon

major issue is that everyone is focused on secondary education.  those kids have already been failed by the system.  i say start with younger children, altering the education system to work as an indoctrination to the idea that education is important.

instead of psychologists inventing a host of disorders to tag children with, they should work to craft a curriculum which brainwashes children with the idea that education is the most essential component of their life, and their job for which they are to seek upward mobility for the next 15 or so years.

in systems which perform better than ours, to include private schools, this is the method.  among parents who support their children through our system and garner laudable results, this is the method.  where virtually any student who is excelling at school can be found, this is the mindset that they have... a sense of _purpose_ and _urgency_ about putting education first and getting it right.

brainwash the children when they are young and impressionable.  make respect, achievement and competition in education the #1 priority for american youth.  way simpler than all this wrestling with parents, administrators and rude teenagers.  my brainwashed generation will rebuke their own slacking parents, colleagues and teachers, and everything else will fall into place.


----------



## Samson

PoliticalChic said:


> Samson said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PoliticalChic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 1. "...Administration can easily "fix" a teacher's class to deep six those that they don't like."
> I have heard similar critiques from many teachers, and there is probably a great deal of experience to this fear.
> How about if we take this power out of the hands of administrators, and use a randomized computer program for selection, for assigning classes to teachers?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "Power out of the hands of administrators?"
> 
> You guys realise that the administrators are there to supervise teachers, right?
> 
> School counsellors set up classes according to a dizzying array of criteria. Administrators have almost nothing to do with fixing which students attend what class.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PoliticalChic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 2. The Obama Administration's "Race to the Top" predicates monetary awards to states that correlate the student scores to the teacher they had.
> I think that this is the only real way to rate teacher's ability.
> Would this be more fair if the scores were not of one year, but of a set period so that more than one group of children were the basis of tenure decisions?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You're kidding right?
> 
> Say you are The Best Teacher In The World.
> 
> The Class Bunny, "Bugs" dies during the week of the test.
> 
> No one can concentrate on all the Great Things You Have Taugh, because they are knashing teeth, tearing hair in anguish of Bugs' Unfortunate Demise.
> 
> Test results say YOU SUCK!
> 
> So you're fired.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> "You guys realise that the administrators are there to supervise teachers, right?
> 
> School counsellors set up classes according to a dizzying array of criteria. Administrators have almost nothing to do with fixing which students attend what class."
> What do administrators actually do that a computer-techie couldn't do, now that districts are going to use test scores to rate teachers?
> 
> 
> "The Class Bunny, "Bugs" dies."
> But he doesn't die every year...
> 
> So we surgically remove the ability of the teacher who perennially complains that she has the worst classes, and has the lowest passing percentages on standardized tests...
> kind of puts the spotlight where it belongs.
> 
> Could you provide the name of the administrator who has to deal with your constant carping, so that I can send him or her the "Long Suffering" Award.
Click to expand...


Heh.......where do you think I've heard all this carping?

I'm not going to begin to attempt to list all the shit a school administrator does.

But fairly rating teachers IS one of them.

To give you some sort of perspective in reality, showing up for work on Monday's and Friday's weighs MUCH more heavily on a teacher's evaluation than Whatever might be gleened from analysing Standardized Test Scores.


----------



## Samson

antagon said:


> major issue is that everyone is focused on secondary education.  those kids have already been failed by the system.  i say start with younger children, altering the education system to work as an indoctrination to the idea that education is important.
> 
> instead of psychologists inventing a host of disorders to tag children with, they should work to craft a curriculum which brainwashes children with the idea that education is the most essential component of their life, and their job for which they are to seek upward mobility for the next 15 or so years.
> 
> in systems which perform better than ours, to include private schools, this is the method.  among parents who support their children through our system and garner laudable results, this is the method.  where virtually any student who is excelling at school can be found, this is the mindset that they have... a sense of _purpose_ and _urgency_ about putting education first and getting it right.
> 
> brainwash the children when they are young and impressionable.  make respect, achievement and competition in education the #1 priority for american youth.  way simpler than all this wrestling with parents, administrators and rude teenagers.  my brainwashed generation will rebuke their own slacking parents, colleagues and teachers, and everything else will fall into place.



Soldiers could take the boys from their mothers at age 7, house them in a dormitory with other boys and train them as soldiers. The mother's softening influence is detrimental to a boy's education. The boys endure harsh physical discipline and deprivation to make them strong. The march without shoes and go without food. They learn to fight, endure pain and survive through their wits. The older boys willingly participate in beating the younger boys to toughen them. Self-denial, simplicity, the warrior code, and loyalty to the city-state will govern their lives.

Girls also could be taken from the home at 7 and sent to a seperate school. Here they learn wrestling, gymnastics, are taught to fight, and endure other physical training. Americans should believe that strong mothers produce strong children. Young women will compete at athletic events and compete in the nude.

The Spartans Childhood - Ancient Greece - HistoryWiz


----------



## PoliticalChic

Samson said:


> PoliticalChic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Samson said:
> 
> 
> 
> "Power out of the hands of administrators?"
> 
> You guys realise that the administrators are there to supervise teachers, right?
> 
> School counsellors set up classes according to a dizzying array of criteria. Administrators have almost nothing to do with fixing which students attend what class.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You're kidding right?
> 
> Say you are The Best Teacher In The World.
> 
> The Class Bunny, "Bugs" dies during the week of the test.
> 
> No one can concentrate on all the Great Things You Have Taugh, because they are knashing teeth, tearing hair in anguish of Bugs' Unfortunate Demise.
> 
> Test results say YOU SUCK!
> 
> So you're fired.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "You guys realise that the administrators are there to supervise teachers, right?
> 
> School counsellors set up classes according to a dizzying array of criteria. Administrators have almost nothing to do with fixing which students attend what class."
> What do administrators actually do that a computer-techie couldn't do, now that districts are going to use test scores to rate teachers?
> 
> 
> "The Class Bunny, "Bugs" dies."
> But he doesn't die every year...
> 
> So we surgically remove the ability of the teacher who perennially complains that she has the worst classes, and has the lowest passing percentages on standardized tests...
> kind of puts the spotlight where it belongs.
> 
> Could you provide the name of the administrator who has to deal with your constant carping, so that I can send him or her the "Long Suffering" Award.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Heh.......where do you think I've heard all this carping?
> 
> I'm not going to begin to attempt to list all the shit a school administrator does.
> 
> But fairly rating teachers IS one of them.
> 
> To give you some sort of perspective in reality, Showing up for work on Monday's and Friday's weights MUCH more heavily on a teacher's evaluation than Whatever might be gleened from analysing Standardized Test Scores.
Click to expand...



Are you hinting that I am your paragon, your apotheosis?? In fact your exemplar???
I don't know whether to blush or to commit seppuku!!!


"...fairly rating teachers ..."
Note how teachers in this thread blanch at the thought! "Fair"?  

They think that administrators are the very opposite: they will purposely assign them poor classes.

Comparing the teachers 'rating' to the achievements of their students should be the rating! Talk about fair!


When I consider the construct "Showing up for work on Monday's and Friday's weights MUCH more heavily on a teacher's evaluation," I now realize how correct my high school science teacher was when he posited that a monkey sitting at a keyboard, randomly hitting keys,  for an infinite amount of time would, eventually, produce the works of Shakespeare.


----------



## Samson

PoliticalChic said:


> I now realize how correct my high school science teacher was when he posited that a monkey sitting at a keyboard, randomly hitting keys,  for an infinite amount of time would, eventually, produce the works of Shakespeare.



Yes, I'm certain YOUR teacher had a good reason to say that.........


----------



## PoliticalChic

Samson said:


> PoliticalChic said:
> 
> 
> 
> I now realize how correct my high school science teacher was when he posited that a monkey sitting at a keyboard, randomly hitting keys,  for an infinite amount of time would, eventually, produce the works of Shakespeare.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, I'm certain YOUR teacher had a good reason to say that.........
Click to expand...


Are you suggesting some simian comparison with moi???

Sticks and stones...


----------



## Samson

PoliticalChic said:


> Samson said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PoliticalChic said:
> 
> 
> 
> I now realize how correct my high school science teacher was when he posited that a monkey sitting at a keyboard, randomly hitting keys,  for an infinite amount of time would, eventually, produce the works of Shakespeare.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, I'm certain YOUR teacher had a good reason to say that.........
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Are you suggesting some simian comparison with moi???
> 
> Sticks and stones...
Click to expand...




I'm merely highlighting irony.


----------



## PoliticalChic

Samson said:


> PoliticalChic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Samson said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, I'm certain YOUR teacher had a good reason to say that.........
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Are you suggesting some simian comparison with moi???
> 
> Sticks and stones...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm merely highlighting irony.
Click to expand...


Sticks and stones: missives on the way.


----------



## Charles Stucker

Samson said:


> Young women will compete at athletic events and compete in the nude.


Finally a suggestion of yours that I truly want to see.

Which smiley fits here?


----------



## Samson

Charles Stucker said:


> Samson said:
> 
> 
> 
> Young women will compete at athletic events and compete in the nude.
> 
> 
> 
> Finally a suggestion of yours that I truly want to see.
> 
> Which smiley fits here?
Click to expand...


----------



## Charles Stucker

Samson said:


> Charles Stucker said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Samson said:
> 
> 
> 
> Young women will compete at athletic events and compete in the nude.
> 
> 
> 
> Finally a suggestion of yours that I truly want to see.
> 
> Which smiley fits here?
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


Do Is your guy digging a swimming hole, or a mud wrestling pit? Cause I can totally get into watching women mud wrestling.


----------



## antagon

Samson said:


> antagon said:
> 
> 
> 
> major issue is that everyone is focused on secondary education.  those kids have already been failed by the system.  i say start with younger children, altering the education system to work as an indoctrination to the idea that education is important.
> 
> instead of psychologists inventing a host of disorders to tag children with, they should work to craft a curriculum which brainwashes children with the idea that education is the most essential component of their life, and their job for which they are to seek upward mobility for the next 15 or so years.
> 
> in systems which perform better than ours, to include private schools, this is the method.  among parents who support their children through our system and garner laudable results, this is the method.  where virtually any student who is excelling at school can be found, this is the mindset that they have... a sense of _purpose_ and _urgency_ about putting education first and getting it right.
> 
> brainwash the children when they are young and impressionable.  make respect, achievement and competition in education the #1 priority for american youth.  way simpler than all this wrestling with parents, administrators and rude teenagers.  my brainwashed generation will rebuke their own slacking parents, colleagues and teachers, and everything else will fall into place.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Soldiers could take the boys from their mothers at age 7, house them in a dormitory with other boys and train them as soldiers. The mother's softening influence is detrimental to a boy's education. The boys endure harsh physical discipline and deprivation to make them strong. The march without shoes and go without food. They learn to fight, endure pain and survive through their wits. The older boys willingly participate in beating the younger boys to toughen them. Self-denial, simplicity, the warrior code, and loyalty to the city-state will govern their lives.
> 
> Girls also could be taken from the home at 7 and sent to a seperate school. Here they learn wrestling, gymnastics, are taught to fight, and endure other physical training. Americans should believe that strong mothers produce strong children. Young women will compete at athletic events and compete in the nude.
> 
> The Spartans Childhood - Ancient Greece - HistoryWiz
Click to expand...


You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Samson again.


----------



## Againsheila

blu said:


> I think parent's are the biggest problem. between libraries and the internet there is nothing stopping you from teaching your kid as much as you want. my stepson is in 2nd grade now but was rated at reading above a 5th grade level and will soon be starting algebra with me. we do an hour every night beyond his homework in math, reading, and science.  he also reads on his own everyday. don't blame the schools, blame the parents.



If you are educating your child, why are you sending him to school in the first place?  I thought the whole reason behind public schools was so that our kids could get an education.  Now it's the parents job?  What the heck are we paying the schools all those taxes for?


----------



## mdn2000

The increase is directly proportunate to the increase in illegal aliens attending public schools.


----------



## Samson

Againsheila said:


> blu said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think parent's are the biggest problem. between libraries and the internet there is nothing stopping you from teaching your kid as much as you want. my stepson is in 2nd grade now but was rated at reading above a 5th grade level and will soon be starting algebra with me. we do an hour every night beyond his homework in math, reading, and science.  he also reads on his own everyday. don't blame the schools, blame the parents.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If you are educating your child, why are you sending him to school in the first place?  I thought the whole reason behind public schools was so that our kids could get an education.  Now it's the parents job?  What the heck are we paying the schools all those taxes for?
Click to expand...


He/she never claimed to be the _*only source*_ of education for Stepson.

Kids are with teachers about 40 hrs/week.

Kids are with parents 128 hrs/week.

From whom do you expect them to learn more?


----------



## Samson

mdn2000 said:


> The increase is directly proportunate to the increase in illegal aliens attending public schools.



Habla Ingles?

"The increase?"

In what? 

Tacos served for lunch?


----------



## Charles Stucker

Samson said:


> Kids are with teachers about 40 hrs/week.
> 
> Kids are with parents 128 hrs/week.
> 
> From whom do you expect them to learn more?



Depends on the parent - I've run across a number that are appallingly ignorant at the most basic levels.


----------



## Samson

Charles Stucker said:


> Samson said:
> 
> 
> 
> Kids are with teachers about 40 hrs/week.
> 
> Kids are with parents 128 hrs/week.
> 
> From whom do you expect them to learn more?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Depends on the parent - I've run across a number that are appallingly ignorant at the most basic levels.
Click to expand...


Yes, its amazing that so many have any grasp on the rudiments of procreation.

Actually, the fact that most kids learn anything at all at school, is evidence to the natural intelligence of humans, rather than any inherited intelligence from parents, or the environments they provide.


----------



## saveliberty

Samson said:


> Kids are with teachers about 40 hrs/week.
> 
> Kids are with parents 128 hrs/week.
> 
> From whom do you expect them to learn more?



Let's see...

The kids should be asleep 56 hours.

Eating about 11 hours.

Leaves about 61 hours.  

I expect they are in school specifically to learn.  The 61 hours available have multiple purposes.  I would hope instilling a work ethic (jobs around the house), morals (church) and enjoying each other would be some of the main duties of the home.  I'm going to lay math and reading primarily on the school.  By the way, the school seems bent on eating a large portion of the 61 hours with sports activities and homework.  Just saying.


----------



## Charles Stucker

Samson said:


> Charles Stucker said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Samson said:
> 
> 
> 
> Kids are with teachers about 40 hrs/week.
> 
> Kids are with parents 128 hrs/week.
> 
> From whom do you expect them to learn more?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Depends on the parent - I've run across a number that are appallingly ignorant at the most basic levels.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yes, its amazing that so many have any grasp on the rudiments of procreation.
> 
> Actually, the fact that most kids learn anything at all at school, is evidence to the natural intelligence of humans, rather than any inherited intelligence from parents, or the environments they provide.
Click to expand...


You must spread some reputation around.......


----------



## Samson

saveliberty said:


> Samson said:
> 
> 
> 
> Kids are with teachers about 40 hrs/week.
> 
> Kids are with parents 128 hrs/week.
> 
> From whom do you expect them to learn more?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Let's see...
> 
> The kids should be asleep 56 hours.
> 
> Eating about 11 hours.
> 
> Leaves about 61 hours.
> 
> I expect they are in school specifically to learn.  The 61 hours available have multiple purposes.  I would hope instilling a work ethic (jobs around the house), morals (church) and enjoying each other would be some of the main duties of the home.  I'm going to lay math and reading primarily on the school.  By the way, the school seems bent on eating a large portion of the 61 hours with sports activities and homework.  Just saying.
Click to expand...


I was waiting for someone to say "kids SHOULD be asleep 56 hours" or that they might be fed at home.

This gives me a chance to get on my little soap-box: Schools don't expect very fucking much from parents: BUT WTF? can they at least make sure kids SLEEP?????

Guess what? THEY DON'T!!!


----------



## Againsheila

Samson said:


> Againsheila said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> blu said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think parent's are the biggest problem. between libraries and the internet there is nothing stopping you from teaching your kid as much as you want. my stepson is in 2nd grade now but was rated at reading above a 5th grade level and will soon be starting algebra with me. we do an hour every night beyond his homework in math, reading, and science.  he also reads on his own everyday. don't blame the schools, blame the parents.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If you are educating your child, why are you sending him to school in the first place?  I thought the whole reason behind public schools was so that our kids could get an education.  Now it's the parents job?  What the heck are we paying the schools all those taxes for?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> He/she never claimed to be the _*only source*_ of education for Stepson.
> 
> Kids are with teachers about 40 hrs/week.
> 
> Kids are with parents 128 hrs/week.
> 
> From whom do you expect them to learn more?
Click to expand...


Depends on what they are learning...I expect the schools to teach them to read, to write, math, social studies, history, science, etc.  If the parents are required to teach them those subjects, what are the schools required to do?


----------



## Samson

Againsheila said:


> Samson said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Againsheila said:
> 
> 
> 
> If you are educating your child, why are you sending him to school in the first place?  I thought the whole reason behind public schools was so that our kids could get an education.  Now it's the parents job?  What the heck are we paying the schools all those taxes for?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> He/she never claimed to be the _*only source*_ of education for Stepson.
> 
> Kids are with teachers about 40 hrs/week.
> 
> Kids are with parents 128 hrs/week.
> 
> From whom do you expect them to learn more?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Depends on what they are learning...I expect the schools to teach them to read, to write, math, social studies, history, science, etc.  If the parents are required to teach them those subjects, what are the schools required to do?
Click to expand...


Who is requiring parents to teach math?

I'd be tickled pink if parents simply made sure they got 8 hours of sleep/night, fed them something besides Pop-Tarts, and dressed them in something I wouldn't expect a $20 whore to be wearing.


----------



## saveliberty

Samson said:


> saveliberty said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Samson said:
> 
> 
> 
> Kids are with teachers about 40 hrs/week.
> 
> Kids are with parents 128 hrs/week.
> 
> From whom do you expect them to learn more?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Let's see...
> 
> The kids should be asleep 56 hours.
> 
> Eating about 11 hours.
> 
> Leaves about 61 hours.
> 
> I expect they are in school specifically to learn.  The 61 hours available have multiple purposes.  I would hope instilling a work ethic (jobs around the house), morals (church) and enjoying each other would be some of the main duties of the home.  I'm going to lay math and reading primarily on the school.  By the way, the school seems bent on eating a large portion of the 61 hours with sports activities and homework.  Just saying.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I was waiting for someone to say "kids SHOULD be asleep 56 hours" or that they might be fed at home.
> 
> This gives me a chance to get on my little soap-box: Schools don't expect very fucking much from parents: BUT WTF? can they at least make sure kids SLEEP?????
> 
> Guess what? THEY DON'T!!!
Click to expand...


SOME don't, but it is a point well taken and I did leave out 3, hopefully 4 hours, for personal hygiene.


----------



## Samson

saveliberty said:


> Samson said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> saveliberty said:
> 
> 
> 
> Let's see...
> 
> The kids should be asleep 56 hours.
> 
> Eating about 11 hours.
> 
> Leaves about 61 hours.
> 
> I expect they are in school specifically to learn.  The 61 hours available have multiple purposes.  I would hope instilling a work ethic (jobs around the house), morals (church) and enjoying each other would be some of the main duties of the home.  I'm going to lay math and reading primarily on the school.  By the way, the school seems bent on eating a large portion of the 61 hours with sports activities and homework.  Just saying.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I was waiting for someone to say "kids SHOULD be asleep 56 hours" or that they might be fed at home.
> 
> This gives me a chance to get on my little soap-box: Schools don't expect very fucking much from parents: BUT WTF? can they at least make sure kids SLEEP?????
> 
> Guess what? THEY DON'T!!!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> SOME don't, but it is a point well taken and I did leave out 3, hopefully 4 hours, for personal hygiene.
Click to expand...


LMAO.....hopefully, 30 min/week on personal hygene.


----------



## mdn2000

Samson said:


> mdn2000 said:
> 
> 
> 
> The increase is directly proportunate to the increase in illegal aliens attending public schools.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Habla Ingles?
> 
> "The increase?"
> 
> In what?
> 
> Tacos served for lunch?
Click to expand...


Eu nao fala? voce nao saber nada, voce muito lento.


----------



## uscitizen

Why are American children falliing behind?

Simple they follow their parents examples.


----------



## mdn2000

American children are not falling behind, illegal Alien children are bringing test scores down. The children of Latino families are bringing the test scores down. At least this is the case in California.


----------



## sparky

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rVSgQaSWhOg]YouTube - Generation in Jeopardy: Today's Youth, Tomorrow's Future[/ame]


----------



## antagon

saveliberty said:


> Samson said:
> 
> 
> 
> Kids are with teachers about 40 hrs/week.
> 
> Kids are with parents 128 hrs/week.
> 
> From whom do you expect them to learn more?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Let's see...
> 
> The kids should be asleep 56 hours.
> 
> Eating about 11 hours.
> 
> Leaves about 61 hours.
> 
> I expect they are in school specifically to learn.  The 61 hours available have multiple purposes.  I would hope instilling a work ethic (jobs around the house), morals (church) and enjoying each other would be some of the main duties of the home.  I'm going to lay math and reading primarily on the school.  By the way, the school seems bent on eating a large portion of the 61 hours with sports activities and homework.  Just saying.
Click to expand...


your hopes are presumably shared by school administrators,  but are failing to produce the results.  schools must take the responsibility to instill a work ethic and morality in students.  and thats that.  anything short is making an excuse.  sports activities and homework are some of the best institutions in the education system.  typical, too, to reproach what works to protect what doesnt.


----------



## editec

If the teachers unions are to blame, why is it that the states with ther BEST education are alos the MOST unionized, and the states with the least unionized teachers are also providing the WORST educational experience?

That rather flies in the face of the premise that unions are to blame, doesn't it?


----------



## Samson

mdn2000 said:


> American children are not falling behind, illegal Alien children are bringing test scores down. The children of Latino families are bringing the test scores down. At least this is the case in California.



As distastefully racist as this sounds, let's just IMAGINE that its true.

If true, then it would be ridiculous to blame Public Educators for lower educational achievement scores.


----------



## sparky

editec said:


> If the teachers unions are to blame, why is it that the states with ther BEST education are alos the MOST unionized, and the states with the least unionized teachers are also providing the WORST educational experience?
> 
> That rather flies in the face of the premise that unions are to blame, doesn't it?



because we can't blame the kids, won't blame the parents, and don't have the collective horsepower to realize systemic problems have far reaching social implications

so unions are left, and in light of the union busting that's gained a lotta steam here, fits quite nicely into the American denial via demonization scheme we like sh*t ourselves with

~S~


----------



## Samson

antagon said:


> saveliberty said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Samson said:
> 
> 
> 
> Kids are with teachers about 40 hrs/week.
> 
> Kids are with parents 128 hrs/week.
> 
> From whom do you expect them to learn more?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Let's see...
> 
> The kids should be asleep 56 hours.
> 
> Eating about 11 hours.
> 
> Leaves about 61 hours.
> 
> I expect they are in school specifically to learn.  The 61 hours available have multiple purposes.  I would hope instilling a work ethic (jobs around the house), morals (church) and enjoying each other would be some of the main duties of the home.  I'm going to lay math and reading primarily on the school.  By the way, the school seems bent on eating a large portion of the 61 hours with sports activities and homework.  Just saying.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> your hopes are presumably shared by school administrators,  but are failing to produce the results.  schools must take the responsibility to instill a work ethic and morality in students.  and thats that.  anything short is making an excuse.  sports activities and homework are some of the best institutions in the education system.  typical, too, to reproach what works to protect what doesnt.
Click to expand...


These statements aren't that unusual, nor are they necessarily unshared by school administrators: Schools LEAP at the chance to justify broadening any revenue-consuming program, regardless of however silly it might be.

How would you propose schools "instill moarlity in students," much less put them to bed before 10 PM and wake them before 7 AM?

First we'll need to hire a consulting agency to determine "what is moral." Better yet, we could send a team of administrators to an Island off Greece for the summer to ponder the issue. I volunteer.

Second, if the administrators ever return, we'll need to keep teachers afterschool for a few days, preferably Fridays, to disseminate the "Morality Curriculum."

Next, we need to increase taxes (bond issue) to purchase all the various and sundry books, materials, and films associated with the Morality Curriculum. Additionally, the taxes will need to increase the budget of the District's Legal Dept. to defend against all the ACLU suits that will be generated when anyone disagrees with The District's Morality.

......I could go on, ad infininum, but I think you get the gist.


----------



## sparky

gee, one would think running shcools like penal systems would already have imparted all the USDA moral fiber the kids need, eh Sam.....~S~


----------



## Samson

sparky said:


> editec said:
> 
> 
> 
> If the teachers unions are to blame, why is it that the states with ther BEST education are alos the MOST unionized, and the states with the least unionized teachers are also providing the WORST educational experience?
> 
> That rather flies in the face of the premise that unions are to blame, doesn't it?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> because we can't blame the kids, won't blame the parents, and don't have the collective horsepower to realize systemic problems have far reaching social implications
> 
> so unions are left, and in light of the union busting that's gained a lotta steam here, fits quite nicely into the American denial via demonization scheme we like sh*t ourselves with
> 
> ~S~
Click to expand...


Texas State Law prohibits Teacher Unionization (much like Federal Employees are prohibited from Unionizing, e.g. Flight Controllers, who, striking in 1980 were summarily Fired by the Reagan Administration). Texas has no income tax.

New York (and California?) allow Teacher Unions, and they have high state income taxes to pay the resulting inflated salaries.

Where do students learn more?


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## Samson

sparky said:


> gee, one would think running shcools like penal systems would already have imparted all the USDA moral fiber the kids need, eh Sam.....~S~



Yeah, its difficult to believe that after imposing such draconian rules like "Walk in the Hall," students would need much more Moralality.


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## uscitizen

Samson said:


> sparky said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> editec said:
> 
> 
> 
> If the teachers unions are to blame, why is it that the states with ther BEST education are alos the MOST unionized, and the states with the least unionized teachers are also providing the WORST educational experience?
> 
> That rather flies in the face of the premise that unions are to blame, doesn't it?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> because we can't blame the kids, won't blame the parents, and don't have the collective horsepower to realize systemic problems have far reaching social implications
> 
> so unions are left, and in light of the union busting that's gained a lotta steam here, fits quite nicely into the American denial via demonization scheme we like sh*t ourselves with
> 
> ~S~
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Texas State Law prohibits Teacher Unionization (much like Federal Employees are prohibited from Unionizing, e.g. Flight Controllers, who, striking in 1980 were summarily Fired by the Reagan Administration). Texas has no income tax.
> 
> New York (and California?) allow Teacher Unions, and they have high state income taxes to pay the resulting inflated salaries.
> 
> Where do students learn more?
Click to expand...


Got me, where is texas ranked nationwide in primary education?


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## saveliberty

editec said:


> If the teachers unions are to blame, why is it that the states with ther BEST education are alos the MOST unionized, and the states with the least unionized teachers are also providing the WORST educational experience?
> 
> That rather flies in the face of the premise that unions are to blame, doesn't it?



The basis for this claim that unions equate to higher education seems to be rooted in unions keeping down class size through contract terms.  While that may have some truth to it, my guess is, less expensive teachers would also make for even smaller class size.  Also, the lack of protection of poor teachers without unions would increase learning.  Unions have also blocked programs like vouchers and charter schools, which may very well encourage better learning.


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## Samson

uscitizen said:


> Samson said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sparky said:
> 
> 
> 
> because we can't blame the kids, won't blame the parents, and don't have the collective horsepower to realize systemic problems have far reaching social implications
> 
> so unions are left, and in light of the union busting that's gained a lotta steam here, fits quite nicely into the American denial via demonization scheme we like sh*t ourselves with
> 
> ~S~
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Texas State Law prohibits Teacher Unionization (much like Federal Employees are prohibited from Unionizing, e.g. Flight Controllers, who, striking in 1980 were summarily Fired by the Reagan Administration). Texas has no income tax.
> 
> New York (and California?) allow Teacher Unions, and they have high state income taxes to pay the resulting inflated salaries.
> 
> Where do students learn more?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Got me, where is texas ranked nationwide in primary education?
Click to expand...


Not sure about primary education.

Newsweek publishes a list of America's 1,300 Top PUBLIC Highschools every year.

For 2009, here are the numbers of schools by state that made the list:

Texas = 134
California = 267
New York = 180
Florida = 136



> Public schools are ranked according to a ratio devised by Jay Mathews: the number of Advanced Placement, Intl. Baccalaureate and/or Cambridge tests taken by all students at a school in 2007 divided by the number of graduating seniors.


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## antagon

Samson said:


> antagon said:
> 
> 
> 
> your hopes are presumably shared by school administrators,  but are failing to produce the results.  schools must take the responsibility to instill a work ethic and morality in students.  and thats that.  anything short is making an excuse.  sports activities and homework are some of the best institutions in the education system.  typical, too, to reproach what works to protect what doesnt.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> These statements aren't that unusual, nor are they necessarily unshared by school administrators: Schools LEAP at the chance to justify broadening any revenue-consuming program, regardless of however silly it might be.
> 
> How would you propose schools "instill moarlity in students,"...
> 
> First we'll need to hire a consulting agency to determine "what is moral." Better yet, we could send a team of administrators to an Island off Greece for the summer to ponder the issue. I volunteer.
> 
> Second, if the administrators ever return, we'll need to keep teachers afterschool for a few days, preferably Fridays, to disseminate the "Morality Curriculum."
> 
> Next, we need to increase taxes (bond issue) to purchase all the various and sundry books, materials, and films associated with the Morality Curriculum. Additionally, the taxes will need to increase the budget of the District's Legal Dept. to defend against all the ACLU suits that will be generated when anyone disagrees with The District's Morality.
> 
> ......I could go on, ad infininum, but I think you get the gist.
Click to expand...

i would welcome teachers and admins to abandon the greek seminars they learned about ADHD, etc, and take on some that produce results instead of goalpost shifts which have labeled masses of americans as drug-dependent retards.

morality as applicable in our secular public schools might just boil down to decorum in class and valuing education, a well-earned dollar, America, self-development, self-preparation, hard work, etc...  we're moving toward a moratorium on this sort of education.  there is no sense of purpose for students, unless their parents cram it down their throats.  anything without a purpose is inane time and spending.  

the school system should assume the roles required to produce results instead of standing on the sidelines, lamenting on failed parenting and filling prescriptions for the riddilin deficiency they claim we've got.



> ... much less put them to bed before 10 PM and wake them before 7 AM?


if they do better with the above, this part will be moot.  

*now where's the abandon the foster system, bring back boarding schools and orphanages thread?*


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## Samson

> ... much less put them to bed before 10 PM and wake them before 7 AM?





antagon said:


> if they do better with the above, this part will be moot.



Yes, my point is they DO _*Not*_ do better with the above.



antagon said:


> *now where's the abandon the foster system, bring back boarding schools and orphanages thread?*




You oughta start it: Include the linky to Spartan Children.


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## mdn2000

Samson said:


> mdn2000 said:
> 
> 
> 
> American children are not falling behind, illegal Alien children are bringing test scores down. The children of Latino families are bringing the test scores down. At least this is the case in California.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As distastefully racist as this sounds, let's just IMAGINE that its true.
> 
> If true, then it would be ridiculous to blame Public Educators for lower educational achievement scores.
Click to expand...


Racist, coming from me impossible, I will be sure to tell my Negro wife and children. I will also have to go into Mexico, into my the homes of my Mexican friends and tell them as well, I will have to tell the illegal aliens I have worked side by side with, who I have ate with, who I have drank with.

My comment does not sound racist. Its simply fact, given its fact its very important to discuss how else will we improve the education of these children.  

See despite the pre-conceived prejudice you taint conservative comments with not everyone is how you see them. 

Treating every child the same when it comes to education is not good. The culture and education of the parents is extremely important, illegal alien children are at a disadvantage for many reasons, I am not an expert on this but I do know what I see and of whom I speak. 

Illegal alien children are at an extreme disadvantage just understanding English. I know the difficulties for I have experienced them myself, English was a terrible subject for me, falling behind versus starting behind is a huge difference. 

Its not fair to the illegal alien children to pretend school is not much more difficult for them. 

No matter the cause or the handicap of the children a teachers is only there to teach. The measure of success of a teacher is the child learning.

If the child fails to learn, the teacher failed to teach. 

In the case of Los Angeles teachers failing to teach the children, maybe the failure starts because of attitudes just like Samson's.


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## editec

saveliberty said:


> editec said:
> 
> 
> 
> If the teachers unions are to blame, why is it that the states with ther BEST education are alos the MOST unionized, and the states with the least unionized teachers are also providing the WORST educational experience?
> 
> That rather flies in the face of the premise that unions are to blame, doesn't it?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The basis for this claim that unions equate to higher education seems to be rooted in unions keeping down class size through contract terms.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No, the basis for that claim is based on test results that occur in the schools, number of graduates, students who continue on to college.
> 
> If outcomes matter, then blaming unions for outcomes is foolish.
> 
> The most unionized states ALSO produce the best EDUCATIONAL OUTCOMES.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> While that may have some truth to it, my guess is, less expensive teachers would also make for even smaller class size.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Your guess?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Also, the lack of protection of poor teachers without unions would increase learning.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I think you and I are being fed a bill of goods. Getting rid of teachers, even tenured teachers is fairly easy to do.
> 
> No profession has LESS job security than public school teachers.
> 
> None.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unions have also blocked programs like vouchers and charter schools, which may very well encourage better learning.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Have they?
> 
> Do you know that teachers unions have also STARTED charter schools?
> 
> I'm guessing not. You are a victim of propaganda, amigo.
> 
> Hey, I don't blame you for being misinformed. You're the victim of a concerted propaganda campaign designed to crush unions and basically to set us up to defund public schools for the working classes while the rich get to avoid paying for public schools
> 
> The lies that are being passed off to the public about teachers and schools and tenure are freaking amazing.
> 
> But let me ask you again.
> 
> *How do you explain your character assassination of teachers unions when the states where teachers unions are most powerful ALSO produce the best educational outcomes?*
> 
> TRY to put aside your antiunion prejudice for a moment and look at this usse without that bias.
> 
> Practically everything these right wing think tanks have told you and I about education isn't only wrong,_ it's the opposite of the truth._
Click to expand...


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