# Are Students Coddled? Schools Get Rid of 'F's



## PoliticalChic (Dec 10, 2008)

*Some Fear Bad Grades May Encourage Dropouts, but Not Everyone Is Convinced*

By EMILY FRIEDMAN
Dec. 5, 2008 

_For more students nationwide, the grading alphabet ends at "D," as school districts eliminate policies that allow children to be given failing marks. 

At public schools in Grand Rapids, Mich., high school students will no longer receive "F"s but instead will earn the letter "H" when their work falls woefully short. 

Superintendent Bernard Taylor told ABCNews.com that the "H" stands for "held," and is a system designed to give students a second chance on work that was not up to par. 

"I never see anyone doing anything but punishing kids," said Taylor. "If the choice is between letting kids fail and giving them another opportunity to succeed, I'm going to err on the side of opportunity." _

ABC News: Are Students Coddled? Schools Get Rid of 'F's

Once again the educrats come up with these ideas which to most logical minds would be completely asinine.  

Does this sound like moving the deck chairs on the Titanic?


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## Angel Heart (Dec 10, 2008)

UGH... At what point do we all march into the school board meetings and demand better? 

Oh wait, I'm already doing that. If this pisses you off, get involved. The board meetings are open to the public.


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## PoliticalChic (Dec 10, 2008)

Angel Heart said:


> UGH... At what point do we all march into the school board meetings and demand better?
> 
> Oh wait, I'm already doing that. If this pisses you off, get involved. The board meetings are open to the public.



If parents didn't need day care, they should go to the schools and protest.  If most families had a single provider, parents wouldn't be so desperate to leave their children in some of these-God-forsaken schools.  I don't mean the actual physical conditions -- I think you know what I mean.  

The people running the schools are coming up with these "wonderful" ideas, kind of makes you wonder what kind of teachers we have as well.  I don't mean to disparage teachers because I've known some great ones, and someone very close to me is a teacher as well.  But most of them are no more educated than the students they teach.

There needs to be an education revolution and I hope that Obama would have the boldness and tenacity to take on such a challenge.


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## Angel Heart (Dec 10, 2008)

You do know that there's more control at the state level when it comes to things like this. The school board level is even better. Only about 5% of school budgets come from the Feds. Most comes from state and local taxes.


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## PoliticalChic (Dec 10, 2008)

Angel Heart said:


> You do know that there's more control at the state level when it comes to things like this. The school board level is even better. Only about 5% of school budgets come from the Feds. Most comes from state and local taxes.



Unfortunately, I haven't seen any great leadership on the local level.


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## Diuretic (Dec 10, 2008)

> Students in Taylor's district can choose to retake the course, do extra work online or decide on a different remedial action with their teacher.
> 
> But if the work has not been rectified within 12 weeks, Taylor said the student will still receive a failing grade.



What's the problem?  Do you think that a student shouldn't be given some help to achieve what they need?  Shouldn't they be given some more time to get there?  It's not an open cheque, there is a limit and it seems to be reasonable.


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## Mr. President (Dec 10, 2008)

This is stupid.  An extra twelve weeks to do homework.  Well hell let me take a twelve week extension on every assignment I have laugh at the due date and tell the teacher I'll do it on my time not yours.  Then when 30 students are turning in 3 months worth of assignments on the same day and the teachers can't get grades out we can go to the parent teacher conference and talk about the teacher's incompetence.


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## Angel Heart (Dec 10, 2008)

PoliticalChic said:


> Unfortunately, I haven't seen any great leadership on the local level.



Ever thought of being that leadership? I'm finding if there's inadequate leadership, it's actually easier to get things done. They don't know what to think when a real leader comes in and starts changing things.


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## KGB (Dec 10, 2008)

another example of liberal hand holding run amuck.....no wonder kids today can't handle failure when they become adults.....


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## Diuretic (Dec 10, 2008)

Mr. President said:


> This is stupid.  An extra twelve weeks to do homework.  Well hell let me take a twelve week extension on every assignment I have laugh at the due date and tell the teacher I'll do it on my time not yours.  Then when 30 students are turning in 3 months worth of assignments on the same day and the teachers can't get grades out we can go to the parent teacher conference and talk about the teacher's incompetence.



Problem with the article is that it's taking grabs from various districts and lumping them together.  Yes, one of the districts is using this for homework (and I have to point out that the idea of "homework" is worth a discussion of itself) but in the first example - Grand Rapids - that doesn't seem to be the case.  I don't see a problem with this approach if it helps students to get to where they need to be.  In the article the question is along the lines of are students mollycoddled?  That's so the rest of us who went through more rigid educational regimes and may well have suffered from them can look at today's students and tell them to "man up".


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## PoliticalChic (Dec 10, 2008)

Angel Heart said:


> Ever thought of being that leadership? I'm finding if there's inadequate leadership, it's actually easier to get things done. They don't know what to think when a real leader comes in and starts changing things.



If my kids were older, I would consider it.  Right now homeschooling them is a full time job.  Taking a leadership role in this would mean having to deal with the frustration of dealing with the educrats who still believe that hand-holding is a good thing for kids.  But you make a good point. Instead of bitching about it, why don't more people get involved.  I know parents get involved in the PTA, but we need a major movement which involves changing the teacher's unions.  Right now they have such a strangle hold on the system, I can't see getting much done.  

I think children are born smart.  They go through bad changes once they get into the system.  The school system is the "dumb machine."  I don't even mean just the academics.  Kids are trained to be lazy in school once they realize how little they have to do to just "get by."


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## Abelian Sea (Dec 10, 2008)

I got an F twice in high school, and in neither case would an extra 12 weeks have made a difference.

Failing grades don't catch students or teachers by surprise. They know there's a problem well before the end of the term. I think these extentions will be wasted in most cases.


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## KittenKoder (Dec 10, 2008)

I have lost all faith in modern schools since many started the perverted "uniforms" policies (they still can't get it passed in the Seattle area for most schools LOL). The problem is though that now the students have taken more interest in cheating, though I don't think it's really because of the school structures but an abuse of technology. As for this particular change, the old way worked fine, my high school based graduation on credits anyway and I think they should do that for all schools. You get the credits, you earn the diploma, otherwise basing it on age is just plain stupid.


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## Ravi (Dec 11, 2008)

I don't have a problem with this. In my kids' school district they have a grade forgiveness policy where classes that are failed can be retaken, often over the internet. Even classes with a score of D can sometimes be retaken to bring up grade point average.

Much better than the teachers just passing the kids without merit.


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## editec (Dec 11, 2008)

I lost at least one teaching post for flunking kids.

Given another opportunity I'd flunked the little bastards again.

Of course given the opportunity to redeign the entire system of education, the whole issue of grades would cease to be problem in _editecotoptia_, too.

I'd DE-SCHOOL America, were it up to me.

The whole antiquated system for educating our children and reeducating ourselves makes like ZERO sense in today's world.

Its a system cobbled together from a early industrial model and* it is ineffective and  wastes everybody's time.*


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## Southpaw (Dec 11, 2008)

Just another move that this world is making towards 'positive' thinking.  

Don't tell the kid he's fat. His feelings might get hurt.

Don't tell the kid he failed.  His feelings might get hurt.

Don't push the kids to be the best.  You might offend someone.

It's all ridiculous.  Do people wonder why America is falling behind in terms of being competitive?  Do people wonder why the products of our school system are earning less and less each year?


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## Mr. President (Dec 11, 2008)

Indeed your eminence.  Every grade is earned whether an A or an F.  Some parents dont want to think of their kids as failures.  But when the kid is failing so is the PARENT(S).


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## Ravi (Dec 11, 2008)

Mr. President said:


> Indeed your eminence.  Every grade is earned whether an A or an F.  Some parents dont want to think of their kids as failures.  But when the kid is failing so is the PARENT(S).


A lot of parents do seem to feel that way. But the thread title is misleading. The grade of F isn't going away. Instead the kids are getting a chance to rectify the situation. If they can and actually learn enough to get a passing grade where is the harm?


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## catzmeow (Dec 11, 2008)

PoliticalChic said:


> I think children are born smart.  They go through bad changes once they get into the system.  The school system is the "dumb machine."  I don't even mean just the academics.  Kids are trained to be lazy in school once they realize how little they have to do to just "get by."



I guess I'm just lucky because my kids have been in good schools for their entire school experience.  We've had a couple of bad teachers, but they have been the exception, not the rule.


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## Paulie (Dec 11, 2008)

KGB said:


> another example of liberal hand holding run amuck.....no wonder kids today can't handle failure when they become adults.....



It's ok, soon there won't be such a thing as failure anymore.  There will be regulations to prevent it.


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## Mr. President (Dec 11, 2008)

If you get fired at work YOUR FIRED.  If you fail a class YOU FAILED.  Thats reality.  But we distance kids from reality in hopes that it builds their confidence.  It does but the confidence is a false sense of security because they have not had to face an unsheltered world.


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## Paulie (Dec 11, 2008)

Ravi said:


> A lot of parents do seem to feel that way. But the thread title is misleading. The grade of F isn't going away. Instead the kids are getting a chance to rectify the situation. If they can and actually learn enough to get a passing grade where is the harm?



They had a perfectly good chance the first time around.


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## Ravi (Dec 11, 2008)

Mr. President said:


> If you get fired at work YOUR FIRED.  If you fail a class YOU FAILED.  Thats reality.  But we distance kids from reality in hopes that it builds their confidence.  It does but the confidence is a false sense of security because they have not had to face an unsheltered world.


Again, where is the harm in the kids learning something? BTW, school isn't a job. Unless you want to start paying the little darlings to get good grades your point isn't valid.


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## Paulie (Dec 11, 2008)

Rav, school prepares you for the real world, right?  Educates you so you can compete in the workforce and all?

Most jobs won't offer you a second chance if you do so poorly in your performance that it could be compared to getting an F in school.  That's the worst you can do in school.  If you screwed up something at work that worst that you could, you're probably going to lose your job.  It's not very often you'll get a second chance.

Why place a false impression in children's minds that there is such a thing as a second chance in the real world?  There almost always ISN'T.

That kind of safety net breeds mediocrity.


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## Ravi (Dec 11, 2008)

Paulitics said:


> Rav, school prepares you for the real world, right?  Educates you so you can compete in the workforce and all?
> 
> Most jobs won't offer you a second chance if you do so poorly in your performance that it could be compared to getting an F in school.  That's the worst you can do in school.  If you screwed up something at work that worst that you could, you're probably going to lose your job.  It's not very often you'll get a second chance.
> 
> ...


Maybe. And certainly if your kids think school is the real world and they have no experience of the real world. School isn't the real world and it isn't meant to be the real world. It is meant to give you an education so you can function in the real world. Allowing kids to make up a failing grade is giving them an education.

Now if they were just passing the kids anyway I'd agree with you.

People seem to expect schools to raise their kids when in reality they only exist to provide an education.


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## Mr. President (Dec 11, 2008)

What about the additional load for the teachers.  What about the kids who turn the assignments in on time.  How can we punish these two while glorifying the lazy student who didn't turn the assignment in on time or do it right the first time?


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## glockmail (Dec 11, 2008)

PoliticalChic said:


> *Some Fear Bad Grades May Encourage Dropouts, but Not Everyone Is Convinced*
> 
> By EMILY FRIEDMAN
> Dec. 5, 2008
> ...


 I'm old enough to remember when they changed it to an F. It used to be E, which, coincidentally, comes alphabetically after A, B, C and D. The idea back then was to emphasize that you had indeed Failed. You Fucked up you Fool. 

And when you got int a fight they made you shake hands with the little bastard that hit you on the head with a rock from behind.


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## Ravi (Dec 11, 2008)

Mr. President said:


> What about the additional load for the teachers.  What about the kids who turn the assignments in on time.  How can we punish these two while glorifying the lazy student who didn't turn the assignment in on time or do it right the first time?


How are you punishing the teachers or the other students? It doesn't affect them AT ALL. If teachers teach summer school, they get paid. If they teach online courses, they get paid. Is the job of the school to educate? I think it is.

Kids don't just fail classes out of laziness. Some of them fail a class simply because they can't think at seven in the morning. Why punish them for being teenagers?

Maybe we live on different planets but in my opinion there is nothing wrong with allowing a student to retake a class he or she failed especially if said child learns from the experience.


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## Paulie (Dec 11, 2008)

Ravi said:


> Maybe. And certainly if your kids think school is the real world and they have no experience of the real world. School isn't the real world and it isn't meant to be the real world. It is meant to give you an education so you can function in the real world. Allowing kids to make up a failing grade is giving them an education.
> 
> Now if they were just passing the kids anyway I'd agree with you.
> 
> People seem to expect schools to raise their kids when in reality they only exist to provide an education.



Only liberals expect schools to raise kids.  My point is the opposite.  You get a shot, like anyone else, to succeed in school.  You fail, you deal with the failure.  If you walk into a situation knowing that you'll have a second chance, you'll put forth minimal effort most likely because subconsciously you'll always know you can try again if you don't do well.  That's ridiculous.

If school is preparing you for the real world, then school should not be offering you second chances because most likely, your future prospective boss WON'T BE.


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## Ravi (Dec 11, 2008)

None of you all went to school recently, I guess. We've had a grade of "I" for incomplete for as long as I can remember.


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## Mr. President (Dec 11, 2008)

Ravi I graduated 07 when did you?


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## Ravi (Dec 11, 2008)

Paulitics said:


> Only liberals expect schools to raise kids.  My point is the opposite.  You get a shot, like anyone else, to succeed in school.  You fail, you deal with the failure.  If you walk into a situation knowing that you'll have a second chance, you'll put forth minimal effort most likely because subconsciously you'll always know you can try again if you don't do well.  That's ridiculous.
> 
> If school is preparing you for the real world, then school should not be offering you second chances because most likely, your future prospective boss WON'T BE.


I think you're crazy, Pauli. Most kids don't like repeating classes. 

Not sure why you keep trying to equate school with the real world. Liberals don't expect schools to raise their kids. It sounds like you do, frankly. I prefer mine get educated and learn about the real world through gainful employment and volunteer work.


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## Southpaw (Dec 11, 2008)

Ravi said:


> Kids don't just fail classes out of laziness. Some of them fail a class simply because they can't think at seven in the morning. Why punish them for being teenagers?



Sure they do.

As for the whole 7am thing, they better get used to getting up earlier than that for the breakfast shift at McDonalds or the construction job if they keep failing.

Life is tough.


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## Angel Heart (Dec 11, 2008)

Mr. President said:


> Indeed your eminence.  Every grade is earned whether an A or an F.  Some parents dont want to think of their kids as failures.  But when the kid is failing so is the PARENT(S).



And where does dyslexia fit into your idea? As a dyslexic, I can tell you it wasn't my parents that caused me to get F's in spelling and writing. It was the fact that I learn different. I wasn't taught the tools to manage it until college. I still hate to put pen to paper but as you can tell my spelling isn't that much of an issue today.

I don't agree with not giving the F. Grade them as you see them, how ever all the F's come with a reason. Be it lack of parental support or a learning disability, it needs to be addressed. Dyslexia is not being addressed at all. I've been told it's an 'archaic' term.

Giving the child a sugar coated grade isn't going to anything positive. It's going to give the child a false sense of reality. They should take the signs of the child's struggling and find out why. Blaming the parents only isn't the solution. Blaming the teachers only isn't the solution. Finding out the whys and correcting them is.


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## Paulie (Dec 11, 2008)

In some instances, I was able to plead my case to a teacher for mercy, and re-take a test.  That was based on the teacher's disgretion, though.  There were times I was denied.  Usually my pleas fell on deaf ears.  But my grades were what I made them.  No one owed me a second chance.  I had the same opportunity to succeed as the student who got an A on the test.  I probably should have paid more attention during lecture, or studied the materials more.


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## PoliticalChic (Dec 11, 2008)

glockmail said:


> I'm old enough to remember when they changed it to an F. It used to be E, which, coincidentally, comes alphabetically after A, B, C and D. The idea back then was to emphasize that you had indeed Failed. You Fucked up you Fool.
> 
> And when you got int a fight they made you shake hands with the little bastard that hit you on the head with a rock from behind.



I'm crying and laughing at the same time if that is possible.


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## Mr. President (Dec 11, 2008)

Angel Heart said:


> And where does dyslexia fit into your idea? As a dyslexic, I can tell you it wasn't my parents that caused me to get F's in spelling and writing. It was the fact that I learn different. I wasn't taught the tools to manage it until college. I still hate to put pen to paper but as you can tell my spelling isn't that much of an issue today.
> 
> I don't agree with not giving the F. Grade them as you see them, how ever all the F's come with a reason. Be it lack of parental support or a learning disability, it needs to be addressed. Dyslexia is not being addressed at all. I've been told it's an 'archaic' term.
> 
> Giving the child a sugar coated grade isn't going to anything positive. It's going to give the child a false sense of reality. They should take the signs of the child's struggling and find out why. Blaming the parents only isn't the solution. Blaming the teachers only isn't the solution. Finding out the whys and correcting them is.





Yeah now we are talking about special needs not the average kid.  Of course that would call for different measures.


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## Ravi (Dec 11, 2008)

Southpaw said:


> Sure they do.
> 
> As for the whole 7am thing, they better get used to getting up earlier than that for the breakfast shift at McDonalds or the construction job if they keep failing.
> 
> Life is tough.


lol. I had to start at 7 am as well and was failing english literature. My teacher was smart enough to know that it was the hour of the day and not my intelligence and switched me to a later class. After that I got straight As.

Never worked at McDonalds in my life and I graduated in the top 5% of a hugely populated school.

Life is tough, that is true. All the more reason that schools should educate people.


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## Paulie (Dec 11, 2008)

Ravi said:


> I think you're crazy, Pauli. Most kids don't like repeating classes.
> 
> Not sure why you keep trying to equate school with the real world. Liberals don't expect schools to raise their kids. It sounds like you do, frankly. I prefer mine get educated and learn about the real world through gainful employment and volunteer work.



Not liking to repeat a class is a pretty good reason to try hard the first time around.

The students who were coddled with second chances are going to be really disappointed when the boss fires them the first time they break a computer, or cause a grease fire at the grill.


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## Ravi (Dec 11, 2008)

Paulitics said:


> Not liking to repeat a class is a pretty good reason to try hard the first time around.
> 
> The students who were coddled with second chances are going to be really disappointed when the boss fires them the first time they break a computer, or cause a grease fire at the grill.


So? At least they will have an education and can find another job.


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## Mr. President (Dec 11, 2008)

Ravi said:


> How are you punishing the teachers or the other students? It doesn't affect them AT ALL. If teachers teach summer school, they get paid. If they teach online courses, they get paid. Is the job of the school to educate? I think it is.



Yes to educate but should the curriculum have to now make room for the twelve week extension?  Surely if the student didn't grasp the concepts taught in the 5th week there is no way he/she will grasp the concepts being taught in week 11.  In fact the week 5 assignment isn't neccessary until next semester.  What happens to the report card?





Ravi said:


> Kids don't just fail classes out of laziness. Some of them fail a class simply because they can't think at seven in the morning. Why punish them for being teenagers?



They may be tired but we can all function at 7 in the morning.  I was up at 5:30 every morning.  Military household and I did excellent in school.




Ravi said:


> Maybe we live on different planets but in my opinion there is nothing wrong with allowing a student to retake a class he or she failed especially if said child learns from the experience.



Retaking every now and then is one thing if the circumstance calls for it.  But manditory retakes are crutches for those lazy people who would rather be doing something else.


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## Paulie (Dec 11, 2008)

Ravi said:


> So? At least they will have an education and can find another job.



Yeah, an education they only had to try half as hard to achieve.


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## Ravi (Dec 11, 2008)

Mr. President said:


> Yes to educate but should the curriculum have to now make room for the twelve week extension?  Surely if the student didn't grasp the concepts taught in the 5th week there is no way he/she will grasp the concepts being taught in week 11.  In fact the week 5 assignment isn't neccessary until next semester.  What happens to the report card?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



It isn't mandatory. From the article:



> Students in Taylor's district can choose to retake the course, do extra work online or decide on a different remedial action with their teacher.
> But if the work has not been rectified within 12 weeks, Taylor said the student will still receive a failing grade.



If a kid fails out of laziness, as you seem to suggest is the only reason they fail, then this program isn't going to help them at all. It's only going to help the kids that want to be helped. And those are the kids that are going to probably learn something.


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## Angel Heart (Dec 11, 2008)

Mr. President said:


> Yeah now we are talking about special needs not the average kid.  Of course that would call for different measures.



What of the ones like me that didn't fit into the normal special needs requirements? I could of used help and tools to master learning a lot earlier than college. I struggled my way all the way through. Or my 13 yr old who's on grade level in all but a few areas and in those areas he's only just outside the averages. There are no services available. To have him officially tested I have to pay for it myself. I can't even do the work with him to help him. Being dyslexic makes that impossiable.

BTW did you know that 1 out of every 5 is dyslexic?

Dyslexia



> According to the latest dyslexia research from the National Institutes of Health, dyslexia affects 20 percent of Americans (and about the same percentage of people in other countries.)
> 
> Thats one out of every five children.
> 
> ...


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## Ravi (Dec 11, 2008)

Paulitics said:


> Yeah, an education they only had to try half as hard to achieve.


No, they actually had to try twice as hard if they had to retake the course.

I'm curious. If you are against making up failing grades you must also be against allowing students that fail an entire year to repeat the year they failed, correct? Flunk one year and they are out on their asses.


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## Mr. President (Dec 11, 2008)

STUDENTS CAN CHOOSE TO

that makes it their choice so they say yeha I'll just do that later.

Its not going to help its going to delay the innevitable.


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## Mr. President (Dec 11, 2008)

Angel Heart said:


> What of the ones like me that didn't fit into the normal special needs requirements? I could of used help and tools to master learning a lot earlier than college. I struggled my way all the way through. Or my 13 yr old who's on grade level in all but a few areas and in those areas he's only just outside the averages. There are no services available. To have him officially tested I have to pay for it myself. I can't even do the work with him to help him. Being dyslexic makes that impossiable.
> 
> BTW did you know that 1 out of every 5 is dyslexic?
> 
> Dyslexia



That means %08 aren't.


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## Paulie (Dec 11, 2008)

Rav, besides something obvious like a serious problem in the home life, what exactly is causing these kids to fail?

Most of the time, students fail due to lack of effort.  Why should a lack of effort be REWARDED, for all intents and purposes?  If you couldn't fulfil your obligations the first time around, why should you get a second chance?

I don't mind certain students getting another shot when they had a serious reason for underperformance, but too many kids just don't put forth enough effort.  That's the primary reason for the US falling so hard in international academics.  These types of students don't deserve a second chance, they deserve the result they created for themselves through their own effort.


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## Paulie (Dec 11, 2008)

When you fail a course for the year, you start all over again and take the complete course.

Often times, when you make up a class, you're given a condensed, watered-down version of the entire cirriculum.  It's a half-ass way to shove a passing grade down a kid's throat.

I don't mind starting all over again the next year.  You have 9-10 months to figure the friggin class out.  Having to do it all over again from day 1 should be enough of a deterrent to shape your act up.


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## Ravi (Dec 11, 2008)

Paulitics said:


> Rav, besides something obvious like a serious problem in the home life, what exactly is causing these kids to fail?
> 
> Most of the time, students fail due to lack of effort.  Why should a lack of effort be REWARDED, for all intents and purposes?  If you couldn't fulfil your obligations the first time around, why should you get a second chance?
> 
> I don't mind certain students getting another shot when they had a serious reason for underperformance, but too many kids just don't put forth enough effort.  That's the primary reason for the US falling so hard in international academics.  These types of students don't deserve a second chance, they deserve the result they created for themselves through their own effort.


I'm going to let you do your own homework and figure it out for yourself. Teaching kids that failure is the end of the world is a bad thing. Failure is part of life and a great learning experience of its own.


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## Paulie (Dec 11, 2008)

Ravi said:


> I'm going to let you do your own homework and figure it out for yourself. Teaching kids that failure is the end of the world is a bad thing. Failure is part of life and a great learning experience of its own.



You contradict yourself and don't even realize it.


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## Ravi (Dec 11, 2008)

Paulitics said:


> When you fail a course for the year, you start all over again and take the complete course.
> 
> Often times, when you make up a class, you're given a condensed, watered-down version of the entire cirriculum.  It's a half-ass way to shove a passing grade down a kid's throat.
> 
> I don't mind starting all over again the next year.  You have 9-10 months to figure the friggin class out.  Having to do it all over again from day 1 should be enough of a deterrent to shape your act up.


I don't know how it is with the school in the OP, but in our district you don't get a watered down version. You repeat the entire segment that you failed. Usually online with a different teacher.


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## Steerpike (Dec 11, 2008)

Ravi said:


> So? At least they will have an education and can find another job.



I think the point is they won't really have an education.

If the old system (and I'm making numbers up for purposes of an example) passed kids with a 70% or better through a class, and a new system passes a class with 50% or better through a class, do the additional 20% now have a better education than they would have had under the old system?  No.  They have a piece of paper (diploma) that they wouldn't have received before, but they are no better educated.

If you lower standards to push kids through, you do not help them.  You only create for them a false sense of their own education and capability.  

You really help them when you work with them to achieve a true education, rather than using a rubber stamp to validate their lack of one.


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## Ravi (Dec 11, 2008)

Paulitics said:


> You contradict yourself and don't even realize it.


Maybe, but my point was that teaching kids that failure is permanent isn't the way to go. They still have the failure in this case, but they also have a chance to get beyond it.


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## Angel Heart (Dec 11, 2008)

Mr. President said:


> That means %08 aren't.



Don't you mean 80%?

I wonder what % of children are failing due to dyslexia... 

Center for Dyslexia



> Children Who Can't Read Become Adolescents Who Can't Read
> Although many children have average or above average intelligence, they do not learn to read in the elementary classroom. They are usually bright, eager learners at the age of 6. They can answer questions about a story after the teacher has read the story aloud, they have good to excellent vocabularies, and they expect to do well in school. They have trouble manipulating sounds in words and have great difficulty "sounding out" words. If they can read some words, it is because they have memorized them. These students have a learning disability called dyslexia.
> 
> If students with dyslexia receive appropriate instruction in the early grades, they learn to read and spell. If they do not receive instruction tailored to the way they learn best, they do not learn to read and spell. They start to do poorly in school and gradually lose any enthusiasm for learning. They end up being asked (on a daily basis) to perform tasks requiring the use of literacy skills they haven't acquired. Discouragement often leads to frustration. As adolescence approaches, frustration often leads to behavior problems and loss of self-esteem. Teachers and parents can't understand why seemingly bright students are not producing work at a level that corresponds to expectations.
> ...


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## Ravi (Dec 11, 2008)

Steerpike said:


> I think the point is they won't really have an education.
> 
> If the old system (and I'm making numbers up for purposes of an example) passed kids with a 70% or better through a class, and a new system passes a class with 50% or better through a class, do the additional 20% now have a better education than they would have had under the old system?  No.  They have a piece of paper (diploma) that they wouldn't have received before, but they are no better educated.
> 
> ...


I agree with what you are saying about the grading system but I don't think it applies in this example.


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## Steerpike (Dec 11, 2008)

Ravi said:


> I agree with what you are saying about the grading system but I don't think it applies in this example.



Perhaps not, but whenever a school starts down the path of lowering standards for PC or other reasons, I think it ends up hurting in the end.


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## Paulie (Dec 11, 2008)

Ravi said:


> Maybe, but my point was that teaching kids that failure is permanent isn't the way to go. They still have the failure in this case, but they also have a chance to get beyond it.



They _DO_ have a chance to get beyond it.  They try again next year.  One bad class isn't the end of the world.  If it's multiple classes a student is failing, I think the problems run deeper than simply needing a second chance.


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## Ravi (Dec 11, 2008)

Steerpike said:


> Perhaps not, but whenever a school starts down the path of lowering standards for PC or other reasons, I think it ends up hurting in the end.


I don't understand why you think allowing students to retake classes they've failed is lowering standards. If they let them retake the class and pass them simply because they retook it I would agree with you. But that isn't what they do, at least not in my school district. To pass the class they must earn a passing grade using the same grading system the school already uses. If they don't pass it, they are stuck with a fail.


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## Ravi (Dec 11, 2008)

Paulitics said:


> They _DO_ have a chance to get beyond it.  They try again next year.  One bad class isn't the end of the world.  If it's multiple classes a student is failing, I think the problems run deeper than simply needing a second chance.


I didn't realize we were talking about multiple classes.


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## Steerpike (Dec 11, 2008)

Ravi said:


> I don't understand why you think allowing students to retake classes they've failed is lowering standards. If they let them retake the class and pass them simply because they retook it I would agree with you. But that isn't what they do, at least not in my school district. To pass the class they must earn a passing grade using the same grading system the school already uses. If they don't pass it, they are stuck with a fail.



I think they should certainly be allowed to retake the class and succeed. No problem with that.  But I think the renaming of the initial F in the class is at best a wash and at worst a 'lowering of standards' in the sense that you're moving away from being honest with the child and letting them accept the fact that they'd failed at the class. I don't see a reason to sugar coat it, and I am not sure it would be helpful.


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## Paulie (Dec 11, 2008)

Ravi said:


> I didn't realize we were talking about multiple classes.



We weren't, necessarily.  I brought it up in convo.  The point is, failing a class isn't the end of the world.  You can try again next year.  And if you continue to fail classes, you just delay your graduation.  It's all on YOU.

We don't need kids getting lifelines, we need them trying as hard as they can the first time around.  Make the most of your opportunity.

You could always go live in Zimbabwe, or something, where life is REALLY grand!


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## Mr. President (Dec 11, 2008)

Angel Heart said:


> Don't you mean 80%?
> 
> I wonder what % of children are failing due to dyslexia...
> 
> Center for Dyslexia



Yes I was being a Smart A when I wrote %08 instead of 80% when talking baout percentage of kids without dyslexia.


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## Ravi (Dec 11, 2008)

You all don't seem to mind then that they retake the class, only that they don't call the initial grade an F? 

Kind of silly, IMO, since I'm pretty sure the kids know what H means.


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## Steerpike (Dec 11, 2008)

Ravi said:


> You all don't seem to mind then that they retake the class, only that they don't call the initial grade an F?
> 
> Kind of silly, IMO, since I'm pretty sure the kids know what H means.



That's why I said at best it is a wash, so why change it?  At worst, it may detract from what can be a valuable lesson:  "Oh, crap.  I FAILED.  I better put more effort into this."

But even assuming you are correct in all cases, that would argue against changing the status quo because there is no benefit to the change.


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## Paulie (Dec 11, 2008)

Ravi said:


> You all don't seem to mind then that they retake the class, only that they don't call the initial grade an F?
> 
> Kind of silly, IMO, since I'm pretty sure the kids know what H means.



No, we WANT them to call the initial grade an F.  We DO mind about that.

When you retake the class again, you start over.  That's what you get for failing the class.  Maybe this time around you'll realize how important those credits are.

We had a couple 5 and 6 year plan'ers in my HS.  They WEREN'T cool, no matter how cool it might have seemed to be that old.


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## Angel Heart (Dec 11, 2008)

Mr. President said:


> Yes I was being a Smart A when I wrote %08 instead of 80% when talking baout percentage of kids without dyslexia.



 Nothing like another myth about dyslexia.



> MYTH:
> Dyslexia means you see things backwards.
> FACT:
> If it were that simple, we could solve the problem by having dyslexic children hold their books in front of a mirror.
> ...



Dyslexia


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## Ravi (Dec 11, 2008)

Steerpike said:


> That's why I said at best it is a wash, so why change it?  At worst, it may detract from what can be a valuable lesson:  "Oh, crap.  I FAILED.  I better put more effort into this."
> 
> But even assuming you are correct in all cases, that would argue against changing the status quo because there is no benefit to the change.


Okay, I can see that. I don't think it matters, but at least I understand your point.


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## Mr. President (Dec 11, 2008)

Angel Heart said:


> Nothing like another myth about dyslexia.
> 
> 
> 
> Dyslexia



I understand what dyslexia is it was intended purely as sarcasm


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## Ravi (Dec 11, 2008)

Paulitics said:


> No, we WANT them to call the initial grade an F.  We DO mind about that.
> 
> When you retake the class again, you start over.  That's what you get for failing the class.  Maybe this time around you'll realize how important those credits are.
> 
> We had a couple 5 and 6 year plan'ers in my HS.  They WEREN'T cool, no matter how cool it might have seemed to be that old.


And they called the grades Fs then, right? I dunno, I can hear you but I can't understand what you are saying.

And you did object to them making up failing grades.


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## Paulie (Dec 11, 2008)

Ravi said:


> And they called the grades Fs then, right? I dunno, I can hear you but I can't understand what you are saying.
> 
> And you did object to them making up failing grades.



Feel free to agree with me anytime now, Rav.


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## Ravi (Dec 11, 2008)

Paulitics said:


> Feel free to agree with me anytime now, Rav.


I'd like to, but you are all over this thread saying that letting kids make up their failed grades is somehow a bad thing.


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## Diuretic (Dec 11, 2008)

Ravi said:


> I'd like to, but you are all over this thread saying that letting kids make up their failed grades is somehow a bad thing.



And that's the point.  There seems to be a comprehension problem here, perhaps it's the ideological blinkers (blinders)?  This is about education, it's not about labelling winners and losers, especially at an early age.  Of course they should be able to make up for failed grades.  If the point of an education is development to the fullest of their ability then they should be given opportunities, within reason, to so develop to their potential.


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## Annie (Dec 11, 2008)

Abelian Sea said:


> I got an F twice in high school, and in neither case would an extra 12 weeks have made a difference.
> 
> Failing grades don't catch students or teachers by surprise. They know there's a problem well before the end of the term. I think these extentions will be wasted in most cases.



Agreed. My 7th grade class this year is a wonder to behold. We've gotten back their standardized tests and it's the first class I've ever had where all but four are within 4 pts of 100, (not an IQ, just sounds like it.  ) The 'low' was 89, the other three were above 104, the highest 128. 

Yet, they are the worst class about doing assignments and their tests are abysmal. I actually laid out $50 to be able to post quizzes and activities so they could review online from home. This morning I basically laid out how to do their essays, organizational wise. I told them the topics, but not the actual way they'd have to approach the topic, (compare and contrast, analyze, predict...). I gave them time to use their text to write a 'practice essay.' 

Graded them during my free period. High 88%, Low 38%, most are in 70's. 

Class as a whole:

Class Average Statistics
High	93.3%
Low	59.34%
*Mean	78.04%
*Median	80%

Our grading scale (tough)

Grading Scale
A+	100	               C   79
A	96	               C-  77
A-	93	               D+ 75
B+	91	               D   72
B	88	               D-  70
B-	85	               F      0
C+	83	 	 

Their 'scores' are higher than their performance, as I grade homework as full points, IF they correct mistakes and add important missing information. About every 5 weeks, I collect their notebooks and grade those based upon taking notes and making corrections to their homework. Their highest notebook grade replaces their lowest test grade, IF it's better. 

Are they being 'coddled?' Indeed. Yet by the time I get them in middle school, they are so conditioned to 'working with a group' and being given certain 'projects' to finish as a group, that we just are attempting to teach, while getting them ready for high school. 

I had one kid today say, "You keep giving us chapter tests, why not give us just 'section tests', it's too much information?" I explained that was the reason to keep their section quizzes and study them before the test. His reply, "It's too much work."


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## Ravi (Dec 11, 2008)

Diuretic said:


> And that's the point.  There seems to be a comprehension problem here, perhaps it's the ideological blinkers (blinders)?  This is about education, it's not about labelling winners and losers, especially at an early age.  Of course they should be able to make up for failed grades.  If the point of an education is development to the fullest of their ability then they should be given opportunities, within reason, to so develop to their potential.


We seem to be in the minority on this subject.

Just out of curiosity, I checked with my uber-conservative sister-in-law who teaches middle school social studies and she agreed with me so I'm not as crazy as I think I am.



I don't know how it is down under, but here it has gotten to the point that if you don't have a college degree you should resign yourself to a life time of crime. So, IMO, the more you educate children in public school, the better they, and we all, are off in the long run.


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## Paulie (Dec 11, 2008)

Ravi said:


> Just out of curiosity, I checked with my uber-conservative sister-in-law who teaches middle school social studies and she agreed with me _so I'm not as crazy as I think I am_.



Um, if the last 8 years isn't tantamount to the lack of common sense and intelligence among many conservatives, I don't know what is.

The fact that you might lend credence to one simply because their opinion matches yours makes you that crazy, and THEN some.


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## Diuretic (Dec 11, 2008)

Ravi said:


> We seem to be in the minority on this subject.
> 
> Just out of curiosity, I checked with my uber-conservative sister-in-law who teaches middle school social studies and she agreed with me so I'm not as crazy as I think I am.
> 
> ...



Just on that last point, if you really want a decent living here, get a trade apprenticeship, it pays much better than a white collar job requiring a degree!  Of course medicine and law are the big earners but young doctors and young lawyers do it really tough for the first few years.  Now I'm getting off topic though.


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## Ravi (Dec 11, 2008)

Paulitics said:


> Um, if the last 8 years isn't tantamount to the lack of common sense and intelligence among many conservatives, I don't know what is.
> 
> The fact that you might lend credence to one simply because their opinion matches yours makes you that crazy, and THEN some.


heh, I said conservative, not republican. Believe it or not, there is a difference.


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## Annie (Dec 11, 2008)

Diuretic said:


> And that's the point.  There seems to be a comprehension problem here, perhaps it's the ideological blinkers (blinders)?  This is about education, it's not about labelling winners and losers, especially at an early age.  Of course they should be able to make up for failed grades.  If the point of an education is development to the fullest of their ability then they should be given opportunities, within reason, to so develop to their potential.



Repeating a class is the norm, after failure. Erasing the failure is not. One would expect that the second, third time around will result in a better grade.

Average, aka GPA


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## Diuretic (Dec 11, 2008)

Annie said:


> Repeating a class is the norm, after failure. Erasing the failure is not. One would expect that the second, third time around will result in a better grade.
> 
> Average, aka GPA



Repeating a class or a unit of work isn't unusual, heck you can even ask for a re-submit at uni.  I agree that there shouldn't be an erasing of failure, surely a second attempt or a re-submit or whatever should be on a student's record so that any patterns can be observed.  I assume also that we're referring to formative assessment here?


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## Annie (Dec 11, 2008)

Diuretic said:


> Repeating a class or a unit of work isn't unusual, heck you can even ask for a re-submit at uni.  I agree that there shouldn't be an erasing of failure, surely a second attempt or a re-submit or whatever should be on a student's record so that any patterns can be observed.  I assume also that we're referring to formative assessment here?



Formative assessment? I suppose that would depend upon the subject. Believe it or not there are right and wrong answers.


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## Diuretic (Dec 11, 2008)

Annie said:


> Formative assessment? I suppose that would depend upon the subject. Believe it or not there are right and wrong answers.



Yep, I found that right and wrong stuff a real bugbear in maths at school. 

I couldn't work out why my suggestions weren't as valid as the responses to the questions which could be found in the back of the textbook.


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## Amanda (Dec 11, 2008)

Ravi said:


> So? At least they will have an education and can find another job.



You're missing the point. We need to punish these little scamps! School isn't about academics, it's about learning to submit to authority. 

You WILL do this assignment on this completely arbitrary timetable BECAUSE I SAY SO! 

You all hate your stupid, mindless bosses right? At least you get paid to be there. School is all that retarded crap you go through everyday, except we can't run to HR if someone bothers us, we have to just take the beating, and there's paycheck as the reward. It's cracking me up to read about how these sissy kids need to man up and get with the program... the program you all hate and despise.

I'm sure I'm going to get to hear about how some of you just love your jobs, blah blah blah, but I know it's not the norm. I have a job, remember? I grew up listening to growups bitch about their crappy jobs. 

For the rest of you that know what I'm talking about because you don't love your job.... Don't you remember when you were free?


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## Amanda (Dec 11, 2008)

editec said:


> I lost at least one teaching post for flunking kids.
> 
> Given another opportunity I'd flunked the little bastards again.
> 
> ...



You made too much sense, no one could reply they were too stunned.


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## KittenKoder (Dec 12, 2008)

Actually, school is a place where people are suppose to be given the chance to learn instead of socialize. However the learning part was never fully incorporated into the US school system.


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## Diuretic (Dec 12, 2008)

Amanda said:


> You're missing the point. We need to punish these little scamps! School isn't about academics, it's about learning to submit to authority.
> 
> You WILL do this assignment on this completely arbitrary timetable BECAUSE I SAY SO!
> 
> ...



[youtube]http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=M_bvT-DGcWw[/youtube]

I hope this works, I can't play Flash in Opera in Gutsy.

If it doesn't work then you'll have to sing it yourself:



_Another Brick in the Wall Part 2 

We don't need no education
We dont need no thought control
No dark sarcasm in the classroom
Teachers leave them kids alone
Hey! Teachers! Leave them kids alone!
All in all it's just another brick in the wall.
All in all you're just another brick in the wall.

We don't need no education
We dont need no thought control
No dark sarcasm in the classroom
Teachers leave them kids alone
Hey! Teachers! Leave them kids alone!
All in all it's just another brick in the wall.
All in all you're just another brick in the wall.

"Wrong, Do it again!"
"If you don't eat yer meat, you can't have any pudding. How can you
have any pudding if you don't eat yer meat?"
"You! Yes, you behind the bikesheds, stand still laddy!"_


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## Agnapostate (Dec 12, 2008)

The school system is based on indoctrination rather than education, and instructs students in the way of textbook drudgery rather than legitimate forms of education that might prepare students with practical skills. 

I would recommend that those interested in this topic read _Deschooling Society_ by Ivan Illich.


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## Amanda (Dec 12, 2008)

Agnapostate said:


> I would recommend that those interested in this topic read _Deschooling Society_ by Ivan Illich.



That's the problem, most _adults_ don't care, they're out of there, not their problem anymore.


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## GHook93 (Dec 12, 2008)

Are you kidding me! Getting rid of F's! Maybe we should get rid of B,C & D also!


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## Diuretic (Dec 12, 2008)

GHook93 said:


> Are you kidding me! Getting rid of F's! Maybe we should get rid of B,C & D also!



No there has to be some form of assessment of learning otherwise there's no point in the effort to teach and to learn.


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## KittenKoder (Dec 12, 2008)

The problem is that schools are becoming no more than conditioning camps, conditioning kids to do nothing but cheat and don't get caught, while obeying their 'leaders' blindly.

If everyone is conditioned to follow then who will lead in the future?


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## Ravi (Dec 12, 2008)

I still feel some sympathy for the teachers. School is an institution, and it is almost impossible for it to not act like an institution. There are a lot of good teachers and there are a lot of bad teachers.

The good ones teach despite all the stupidity and politics. The bad ones collect their paychecks.

As long as teachers understand that their job is to educate no matter what, they do a great job...regardless of the grading system or if little Johnny doesn't know the difference between an H and an F.


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## FistyTheBadger (Dec 12, 2008)

This is fucked up, and I don't know what to do about it.


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## Ravi (Dec 12, 2008)

FistyTheBadger said:


> This is fucked up, and I don't know what to do about it.


We'll give you an I for incomplete and let you redo the course.


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## KittenKoder (Dec 12, 2008)

Actually, the cute little fuzzy is the first one I have seen be fully honest on this. No one knows what to do yet. All we have is an old system that we know isn't helping much, but each change made just makes it worse. So no one knows yet, all we can do is guess and hope the next technique works better.


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## Gem (Dec 12, 2008)

There are still a lot of good teachers out there...teachers who try everyday to reach kids and who realize and feel strongly that their job is to educate, not to drill random facts into young peoples heads, but to encourage them to develop critical thinking skills - to extend and refine their thinking, to take the information we give them and run with it in whatever direction the feel pulled towards.

But there are a lot of issues facing education today - and some of them certainly revolve around the fact that we as a society have been lowering expectations and demands on students, partially in the name of allowing them to "discover education on their own" and partially in the name of "improving their self-esteem" among other reasons.

I am all for students being able to make up work, re-take tests, etc.  I have said to parents numerous times that my goal isn't to have your child learn it on December 12th or not at all...but rather to learn it, to understand it, and to be able to use what I have taught them to some _useful_ purpose.

However...

What we are running into in the public school setting...are kids who are learning _very_ quickly...that this often means they don't have to take anything seriously the first time.

Why put any time into the research project that is due at the end of this week?  When my teacher will accept it at anytime up until the end of the marking period?  Why turn in homework...when, after my mom finds out that I'm failing at the midpoint of the marking period...she'll call the school and ask them to send home all my missed assignments, so I can do them and turn them in the day before grades are due?

As far as schools becoming conditioning camps - haven't they always been that to some extent?  

I am not sure that with the direction our society has chosen to go, the public education system can be saved (or should be).  I think that I would much prefer a system in which parents and their children could choose a school that matched their philosophy.  Want a school that doesn't believe in homework?  Great - here it is.  Want a school that is more traditional, that will require a lot of time and participation from your child?  Go to this school.  Want a "free school" model where your child can work with his teachers on studies that are uniquely tied to his interests?  Or a school that is more vocationally based?  Educators could then choose what type of school they want to work in (and schools could choose whether or not to pay their teachers on a union-based system or based on individual qualifications).

Sorry for the ramble...education is one of those "close to my heart" subjects for me.


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## Diuretic (Dec 13, 2008)

Do educators still talk about learning theories or is that sort of out of fashion now?


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## KittenKoder (Dec 13, 2008)

Diuretic said:


> Do educators still talk about learning theories or is that sort of out of fashion now?



Not sure about now, but that was the best part of school. Talking theories and possibilities made us WANT to learn more, and we had to do the study ourselves to figure it out. It was a great learning tool.


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## editec (Dec 13, 2008)

The purpose of schools is to educate the children.

Grades are merely a way of telling kids how they're doing.

That system stinks, folks, it really does.

We can do better. We can do _much _better.

We really can design lesson plans for each kid if we're willing to invest in education. It's called _diagnostic proscriptive educating._ It works beautifully.

The child is tested first to see what they know and understand and then based on those tests an edcuational plan is specifically designed for them.

Sadly we're too busy pissing away money on foolish things to invest in the kind of tools and resources such systems require.


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## Amanda (Dec 13, 2008)

Ravi said:


> I still feel some sympathy for the teachers. School is an institution, and it is almost impossible for it to not act like an institution.



I do too. I wouldn't want their job, not the way it is right now anyway. I agree very strongly with the "institution" part.


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## Amanda (Dec 13, 2008)

editec said:


> The purpose of schools is to educate the children.
> 
> Grades are merely a way of telling kids how they're doing.
> 
> ...



I would love to see something like this put in place. I'd really like to hear more of your thoughts on how it could be done.


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## Amanda (Dec 13, 2008)

Gem said:


> There are still a lot of good teachers out there...teachers who try everyday to reach kids and who realize and feel strongly that their job is to educate, not to drill random facts into young peoples heads, but to encourage them to develop critical thinking skills - to extend and refine their thinking, to take the information we give them and run with it in whatever direction the feel pulled towards.


I believe this.



Gem said:


> But there are a lot of issues facing education today - and some of them certainly revolve around the fact that we as a society have been lowering expectations and demands on students, partially in the name of allowing them to "discover education on their own" and partially in the name of "improving their self-esteem" among other reasons.


Do you really this that's all there is to it? Do you think the way we do school ever really worked well? Weren't there always kids that had a hard time learning in the kind of environment that school presents? 



Gem said:


> I am all for students being able to make up work, re-take tests, etc.  I have said to parents numerous times that my goal isn't to have your child learn it on December 12th or not at all...but rather to learn it, to understand it, and to be able to use what I have taught them to some _useful_ purpose.
> 
> However...
> 
> ...


I think this is why editec's idea makes so much sense. Kids are bored in school... I think it happens for a lot of reasons being too smart is just one of them, but if learning could be tailored to the student I think a lot more kids would learn a lot more stuff. Standardized testing probably wouldn't work very well anymore, but did it ever?



Gem said:


> As far as schools becoming conditioning camps - haven't they always been that to some extent?


Nice to see this admitted. Srsly.  



Gem said:


> I am not sure that with the direction our society has chosen to go, the public education system can be saved (or should be).  I think that I would much prefer a system in which parents and their children could choose a school that matched their philosophy.  Want a school that doesn't believe in homework?  Great - here it is.  Want a school that is more traditional, that will require a lot of time and participation from your child?  Go to this school.  Want a "free school" model where your child can work with his teachers on studies that are uniquely tied to his interests?  Or a school that is more vocationally based?  Educators could then choose what type of school they want to work in (and schools could choose whether or not to pay their teachers on a union-based system or based on individual qualifications).
> 
> Sorry for the ramble...education is one of those "close to my heart" subjects for me.



I thought it was nice to read. 

I don't blame video games or movies or TV for making kids lazy or not good at school, but I think if you look at the _speed_ at which they are experienced it makes sitting in a classroom very dull by comparison. Also if you watch TV and really pay attention to how information is presented you see that an hour long show is really only 40 minutes of show and they tease what's coming up and recount what you just saw so many times that it's maybe more like 15 minutes of show that they just say over and over. I think if school was made more like TV it would be easier to teach kids that way than to have someone stand in front of them and read a book at them.


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## Paulie (Dec 13, 2008)

Ravi said:


> Iunderstand that their job is to educate no matter what, they do a great job...



Same can be said for just about any profession.  

Doctors especially come to mind.


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## Annie (Dec 13, 2008)

editec said:


> The purpose of schools is to educate the children.
> 
> Grades are merely a way of telling kids how they're doing.
> 
> ...



Don't you always pre-test? It's part of any assessment, no? I'd love to be able to give each kid their own lesson plan, once in awhile I do, but not enough time. I do tend to differentiate though at least three different plans per class.


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## FistyTheBadger (Dec 13, 2008)

Annie said:


> Don't you always pre-test? It's part of any assessment, no? I'd love to be able to give each kid their own lesson plan, once in awhile I do, but not enough time. I do tend to differentiate though at least three different plans per class.


Pre-testing is very new.


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## random3434 (Dec 13, 2008)

Annie said:


> Don't you always pre-test? It's part of any assessment, no? I'd love to be able to give each kid their own lesson plan, once in awhile I do, but not enough time. I do tend to differentiate though at least three different plans per class.



Sounds like an IEP! Too bad only special needs students get those, I bet a lot of other kids could benifit from their own also!


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## Annie (Dec 13, 2008)

Echo Zulu said:


> Sounds like an IEP! Too bad only special needs students get those, I bet a lot of other kids could benifit from their own also!



Indeed, but classes are not of 5-8. However it's important to know the pre-knowledge level of the kids. I wouldn't think of attacking a new area, without finding what they already know. Some classes have kids that are well read and know what the text and materials would cover. They need something extra. Others may be struggling to cover the basics. Most are somewhere inbetween.


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## del (Dec 13, 2008)

Echo Zulu said:


> Sounds like an IEP! Too bad only special needs students get those, I bet a lot of other kids could benifit from their own also!



both of my kids had/have IEPs. i think good teachers have IEPs for all their students whether or not it's mandated by law.


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## random3434 (Dec 13, 2008)

Annie said:


> Indeed, but classes are not of 5-8. However it's important to know the pre-knowledge level of the kids. I wouldn't think of attacking a new area, without finding what they already know. Some classes have kids that are well read and know what the text and materials would cover. They need something extra. Others may be struggling to cover the basics. Most are somewhere inbetween.



Thus our good friend, differentiated instruction. Almost all classrooms should be implementing this strategy.


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## Paulie (Dec 13, 2008)

Echo what is your position on this topic?  Do you agree with all students being given second chances to avoid an F that they otherwise earned?


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## random3434 (Dec 13, 2008)

Paulitics said:


> Echo what is your position on this topic?  Do you agree with all students being given second chances to avoid an F that they otherwise earned?



I think it depends on the circumstance of the student. How hard did he/she try in the class? If they were just goofing off, not turning in work, not asking for extra help when they saw they needed it, then no, they don't deserve a second chance. They live with that F.

Now, for someone with learning problems, or who really just couldn't understand the material, and tried/asked for extra help, yes. If they are willing to work hard again, maybe the subject could be  differentiated for that student or students. 


Remember, I teach special needs kids, and I know ALL children learn differently, not just the ones in "special ed."


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## Annie (Dec 13, 2008)

Echo Zulu said:


> Thus our good friend, differentiated instruction. Almost all classrooms should be implementing this strategy.



Indeed. While my MSed work was an administration degree, the focus was on differentiation.


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## Unkotare (Dec 8, 2018)

Anything that is not an "A" is an "F" anyway.


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## Ravi (Dec 8, 2018)

Paulie said:


> Echo what is your position on this topic?  Do you agree with all students being given second chances to avoid an F that they otherwise earned?


Did she give you a second chance or did you deserve the F? Lmao.


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## Paulie (Dec 9, 2018)

Ravi said:


> Paulie said:
> 
> 
> > Echo what is your position on this topic?  Do you agree with all students being given second chances to avoid an F that they otherwise earned?
> ...


Aaaaand boom goes the dynamite


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## bodecea (Dec 9, 2018)

PoliticalChic said:


> Angel Heart said:
> 
> 
> > UGH... At what point do we all march into the school board meetings and demand better?
> ...


No one is forced to be silent at school board meetings.  No one is even forced to put their children in public schools if you don't like it.


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## PoliticalChic (Dec 9, 2018)

bodecea said:


> PoliticalChic said:
> 
> 
> > Angel Heart said:
> ...




No school huh?

Explains many of your posts.

I love these autobiographical posts.....


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## bodecea (Dec 9, 2018)

PoliticalChic said:


> bodecea said:
> 
> 
> > PoliticalChic said:
> ...


Who said "no school"?  I said (and words actually do have meaning) that no one is even forced to put their children in public schools if you don't like it.

Reading comprehension is your friend.


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## PoliticalChic (Dec 9, 2018)

bodecea said:


> PoliticalChic said:
> 
> 
> > bodecea said:
> ...





I love putting a burr under your saddle, donkey.

And....essentially, almost everyone is forced to put their child in public school, under penalty of law.



Try truth for a change, m'kay?


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