# Can South America Become Great?



## sealybobo

Can Mexico ever become like Australia or Canada?

Should all the countries unite like Europe did with the Euro?

I know corruption is bad. Is this the problem? The crime cartels?

I'm in manufacturing and know there are thousand of manufacturing plants south of the border. Having a strong manufacturing sector is good. Why isn't that prosperity trickling down? Or is it? I hope one day Mexicans don't need to cross the border just like Canadians.


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## sealybobo

When corporations can't find enough help wages go up.


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## BlackFlag

If they can beat down the cartels then yes


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## Sonny Clark

sealybobo said:


> Can Mexico ever become like Australia or Canada?
> 
> Should all the countries unite like Europe did with the Euro?
> 
> I know corruption is bad. Is this the problem? The crime cartels?
> 
> I'm in manufacturing and know there are thousand of manufacturing plants south of the border. Having a strong manufacturing sector is good. Why isn't that prosperity trickling down? Or is it? I hope one day Mexicans don't need to cross the border just like Canadians.


The term "Global Economy" basically means "equalization to the lowest level". Use the U.S.A. as an example.


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## BlackSand

Sonny Clark said:


> The term "Global Economy" basically means "equalization to the lowest level". Use the U.S.A. as an example.



South America is experiencing some gains now.

Some countries are gaining enough GDP to qualify for international loans to assist with infrastructure.
All backed by the collateral supplied by manufacturing expansion and industrialization.

Some places, still heavily influenced by tourism dollars are having to find a balance between industrialization and protecting natural resources.
In a lot of cases they are actually more proactive with developing plans and programs that show the proper awareness towards sustainability and the environment.
Most of the time that is all possible because they are using plans and programs developed and tested by more developed nations/corporations.

It is a slow process though and the size of the country can limit their internal resources.
That being the case ... They are more dependent on the global markets and exports.
You can pretty much bet that those markets and exports will be targeted by countries that intend to secure their own wellbeing first.

So basically ... South America is dependent on innovation and venture capitalism more than individualized national control.
Struggling with socialism while attempting industrialization is counterproductive at some times.

.


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## The Irish Ram

Sure they can become profitable.  Elect more democrats.  They are using our money to prop up every country but ours.  Hitlery can get to them as soon as she robs us to build up India.  Can you say, "made in India"?  Wal-mart can't wait!


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## sealybobo

Sonny Clark said:


> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> Can Mexico ever become like Australia or Canada?
> 
> Should all the countries unite like Europe did with the Euro?
> 
> I know corruption is bad. Is this the problem? The crime cartels?
> 
> I'm in manufacturing and know there are thousand of manufacturing plants south of the border. Having a strong manufacturing sector is good. Why isn't that prosperity trickling down? Or is it? I hope one day Mexicans don't need to cross the border just like Canadians.
> 
> 
> 
> The term "Global Economy" basically means "equalization to the lowest level". Use the U.S.A. as an example.
Click to expand...

Actually I heard a Republican author the other day that pointed out that while free trade has hurt the masses in America it has brought billions of non Americans out of poverty.

Mexico, every other s. American country we do free trade with in south america including Cuba and Columbia now, India, china, Africa. 

If you mean you'd prefer a dog eat dog world of winners and losers that produces a small rich and merchant class and the masses are poor vs our way where theres a small poor and rich class but the masses are middle class?


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## BlackSand

The Irish Ram said:


> Sure they can become profitable.  Elect more democrats.  They are using our money to prop up every country but ours.  Hitlery can get to them as soon as she robs us to build up India.  Can you say, "made in India"?  Wal-mart can't wait!



Uh ... Most South American countries are benefiting more from corporations and investors pissed off with the overburdening governmental policies in the US.
I wouldn't go so far as to suggest it is all a good thing or all a bad thing ... Just a lot easier for a country to get excited about improvements when they amount to revenue increases.

At the stage some South American Countries are ... They leave you alone to do your business because the increased revenues are worth the effort.

.


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## Manonthestreet

ALmost half of Mexicans live in poverty.....


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## Sonny Clark

sealybobo said:


> Sonny Clark said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> Can Mexico ever become like Australia or Canada?
> 
> Should all the countries unite like Europe did with the Euro?
> 
> I know corruption is bad. Is this the problem? The crime cartels?
> 
> I'm in manufacturing and know there are thousand of manufacturing plants south of the border. Having a strong manufacturing sector is good. Why isn't that prosperity trickling down? Or is it? I hope one day Mexicans don't need to cross the border just like Canadians.
> 
> 
> 
> The term "Global Economy" basically means "equalization to the lowest level". Use the U.S.A. as an example.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Actually I heard a Republican author the other day that pointed out that while free trade has hurt the masses in America it has brought billions of non Americans out of poverty.
> 
> Mexico, every other s. American country we do free trade with in south america including Cuba and Columbia now, India, china, Africa.
> 
> If you mean you'd prefer a dog eat dog world of winners and losers that produces a small rich and merchant class and the masses are poor vs our way where theres a small poor and rich class but the masses are middle class?
Click to expand...

NO, I do NOT mean anything of the such, and never implied such nonsense.
Just curious, what would be wrong with fair, equal, and balanced foreign trade agreements and policies?


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## sealybobo

The Irish Ram said:


> Sure they can become profitable.  Elect more democrats.  They are using our money to prop up every country but ours.  Hitlery can get to them as soon as she robs us to build up India.  Can you say, "made in India"?  Wal-mart can't wait!


Bush and the GOP before they lost power in 2006 passed laws giving companies tax breaks if they moved their operations out of the country.

The GOP drafted NAFTA. Only reason Clinton signed it is because hw bush lost his re election. It was a done deal.

Are you an isolationist? I agree we should have protected our vital manufacturing base but you guys said Americans want too much.

Keep in mind union companies moved to Mexico India and China, not Texas. Why?


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## sealybobo

Sonny Clark said:


> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sonny Clark said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> Can Mexico ever become like Australia or Canada?
> 
> Should all the countries unite like Europe did with the Euro?
> 
> I know corruption is bad. Is this the problem? The crime cartels?
> 
> I'm in manufacturing and know there are thousand of manufacturing plants south of the border. Having a strong manufacturing sector is good. Why isn't that prosperity trickling down? Or is it? I hope one day Mexicans don't need to cross the border just like Canadians.
> 
> 
> 
> The term "Global Economy" basically means "equalization to the lowest level". Use the U.S.A. as an example.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Actually I heard a Republican author the other day that pointed out that while free trade has hurt the masses in America it has brought billions of non Americans out of poverty.
> 
> Mexico, every other s. American country we do free trade with in south america including Cuba and Columbia now, India, china, Africa.
> 
> If you mean you'd prefer a dog eat dog world of winners and losers that produces a small rich and merchant class and the masses are poor vs our way where theres a small poor and rich class but the masses are middle class?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> NO, I do NOT mean anything of the such, and never implied such nonsense.
> Just curious, what would be wrong with fair, equal, and balanced foreign trade agreements and policies?
Click to expand...

We should help good 3rd world nations if they plan on using their prosperity to lift their citizens out of poverty and if they have something to trade.


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## The Irish Ram

BlackSand said:


> The Irish Ram said:
> 
> 
> 
> Sure they can become profitable.  Elect more democrats.  They are using our money to prop up every country but ours.  Hitlery can get to them as soon as she robs us to build up India.  Can you say, "made in India"?  Wal-mart can't wait!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Uh ... Most South American countries are benefiting more from corporations and investors pissed off with the overburdening governmental policies in the US.
> I wouldn't go so far as to suggest it is all a good thing or all a bad thing ... Just a lot easier for a country to get excited about improvements when they amount to revenue increases.
> 
> At the stage some South American Countries are ... They leave you alone to do your business because the increased revenues are worth the effort.
> 
> .
Click to expand...


Of course they are benefiting from corporations leaving (we are going to tax you to death) America, and moving to their countries.  Thank NAFTA, and soon the Pacific Trade deal.     Anybody's allowed to profit but us.  Because equality doesn't mean, bring other countries up to our standard, it means whittling  us down to theirs.

So if over taxing the "1%" means the 1% are leaving and taking their jobs with them, do you still think that taxing to the hilt is an incentive for companies wanting to do business here?


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## BlackSand

sealybobo said:


> Bush and the GOP before they lost power in 2006 passed laws giving countries tax breaks if they moved their operations out of the country.
> 
> The GOP drafted NAFTA. Only reason Clinton signed it is because hw bush lost his re election. It was a done deal.
> 
> Are you an isolationist? I agree we should have protected our vital manufacturing base but you guys said Americans want too much.
> 
> Keep in mind union companies moved to Mexico India and China, not Texas. Why?



It is pretty foolish to think that the GOP or Democrats can fix the problems in South America when they cannot even keep manufacturing here in the States.
As much grandstanding as our political parties do concerning NAFTA and other trade agreements ... We are not the ones making better conditions in South American countries when that occurs.

It is the corporations that move there and develop the surrounding areas and resources that benefit the countries.

Plus ... Environmentalism, sustainability, good manufacturing processes, employee safety and community resource development are not mysteries anymore.
The countries know about these initiatives and their benefits ... The policies and procedures are already vetted and proven in more developed countries.
South American countries that are interested in developing ... Have a blue-print in place for better methods.
These things are usually required as part of any business agreement between incoming corporations and developing countries.

*Edit:*
In maybe the shortest way possible to explain the major benefit ...
Corporations and businesses that want to make profits are more interested in countries who are eager to help them ... Than they are interested in countries looking for more ways to punish or handicap them.

Sometimes it is really that simple!


.


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## Sonny Clark

sealybobo said:


> Sonny Clark said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sonny Clark said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> Can Mexico ever become like Australia or Canada?
> 
> Should all the countries unite like Europe did with the Euro?
> 
> I know corruption is bad. Is this the problem? The crime cartels?
> 
> I'm in manufacturing and know there are thousand of manufacturing plants south of the border. Having a strong manufacturing sector is good. Why isn't that prosperity trickling down? Or is it? I hope one day Mexicans don't need to cross the border just like Canadians.
> 
> 
> 
> The term "Global Economy" basically means "equalization to the lowest level". Use the U.S.A. as an example.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Actually I heard a Republican author the other day that pointed out that while free trade has hurt the masses in America it has brought billions of non Americans out of poverty.
> 
> Mexico, every other s. American country we do free trade with in south america including Cuba and Columbia now, India, china, Africa.
> 
> If you mean you'd prefer a dog eat dog world of winners and losers that produces a small rich and merchant class and the masses are poor vs our way where theres a small poor and rich class but the masses are middle class?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> NO, I do NOT mean anything of the such, and never implied such nonsense.
> Just curious, what would be wrong with fair, equal, and balanced foreign trade agreements and policies?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> We should help good 3rd world nations if they plan on using their prosperity to lift their citizens out of poverty and if they have something to trade.
Click to expand...

FYI -- Charity starts at home. Why should we help foreign economies before we help our own? Why should we spend hard earned American tax dollars abroad before spending them here to stabilize our own economy? What would be wrong with putting Americans back to work, producing what America uses and consumes? Why sacrifice our own economic well-being in order to strengthen foreign economies? Do American taxpayers want their tax dollars spent elsewhere to assist others, while America experiences economic hardships? Do we elect representatives to serve us, or do we elect them to serve the world, and place America last on the priority list?

Please answer all questions honestly. Thanks.


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## sealybobo

The Irish Ram said:


> BlackSand said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Irish Ram said:
> 
> 
> 
> Sure they can become profitable.  Elect more democrats.  They are using our money to prop up every country but ours.  Hitlery can get to them as soon as she robs us to build up India.  Can you say, "made in India"?  Wal-mart can't wait!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Uh ... Most South American countries are benefiting more from corporations and investors pissed off with the overburdening governmental policies in the US.
> I wouldn't go so far as to suggest it is all a good thing or all a bad thing ... Just a lot easier for a country to get excited about improvements when they amount to revenue increases.
> 
> At the stage some South American Countries are ... They leave you alone to do your business because the increased revenues are worth the effort.
> 
> .
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Of course they are benefiting from corporations leaving (we are going to tax you to death) America, and moving to their countries.  Thank NAFTA, and soon the Pacific Trade deal.     Anybody's allowed to profit but us.  Because equality doesn't mean, bring other countries up to our standard, it means whittling  us down to theirs.
> 
> So if over taxing the "1%" means the 1% are leaving and taking their jobs with them, do you still think that taxing to the hilt is an incentive for companies wanting to do business here?
Click to expand...

If they don't pay taxes you'll have to and that will bring your quality of life down.

The 1% are going to go where wages are lowest if we allow them to without tariffs.  Tax them and if abc company won't move their operations home xyz company will take their business.

Only a government for we the people will do the right things. Unfortunately America is owned by the rich now. They say what goes.

Who's to blame? Middle class dicks who vote republican


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## sealybobo

Sonny Clark said:


> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sonny Clark said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sonny Clark said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> Can Mexico ever become like Australia or Canada?
> 
> Should all the countries unite like Europe did with the Euro?
> 
> I know corruption is bad. Is this the problem? The crime cartels?
> 
> I'm in manufacturing and know there are thousand of manufacturing plants south of the border. Having a strong manufacturing sector is good. Why isn't that prosperity trickling down? Or is it? I hope one day Mexicans don't need to cross the border just like Canadians.
> 
> 
> 
> The term "Global Economy" basically means "equalization to the lowest level". Use the U.S.A. as an example.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Actually I heard a Republican author the other day that pointed out that while free trade has hurt the masses in America it has brought billions of non Americans out of poverty.
> 
> Mexico, every other s. American country we do free trade with in south america including Cuba and Columbia now, India, china, Africa.
> 
> If you mean you'd prefer a dog eat dog world of winners and losers that produces a small rich and merchant class and the masses are poor vs our way where theres a small poor and rich class but the masses are middle class?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> NO, I do NOT mean anything of the such, and never implied such nonsense.
> Just curious, what would be wrong with fair, equal, and balanced foreign trade agreements and policies?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> We should help good 3rd world nations if they plan on using their prosperity to lift their citizens out of poverty and if they have something to trade.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> FYI -- Charity starts at home. Why should we help foreign economies before we help our own? Why should we spend hard earned American tax dollars abroad before spending them here to stabilize our own economy? What would be wrong with putting Americans back to work, producing what America uses and consumes? Why sacrifice our own economic well-being in order to strengthen foreign economies? Do American taxpayers want their tax dollars spent elsewhere to assist others, while America experiences economic hardships? Do we elect representatives to serve us, or do we elect them to serve the world, and place America last on the priority list?
> 
> Please answer all questions honestly. Thanks.
Click to expand...

We did it because corporations and the rich wanted us to.


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## sealybobo

Sonny Clark said:


> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sonny Clark said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sonny Clark said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> Can Mexico ever become like Australia or Canada?
> 
> Should all the countries unite like Europe did with the Euro?
> 
> I know corruption is bad. Is this the problem? The crime cartels?
> 
> I'm in manufacturing and know there are thousand of manufacturing plants south of the border. Having a strong manufacturing sector is good. Why isn't that prosperity trickling down? Or is it? I hope one day Mexicans don't need to cross the border just like Canadians.
> 
> 
> 
> The term "Global Economy" basically means "equalization to the lowest level". Use the U.S.A. as an example.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Actually I heard a Republican author the other day that pointed out that while free trade has hurt the masses in America it has brought billions of non Americans out of poverty.
> 
> Mexico, every other s. American country we do free trade with in south america including Cuba and Columbia now, India, china, Africa.
> 
> If you mean you'd prefer a dog eat dog world of winners and losers that produces a small rich and merchant class and the masses are poor vs our way where theres a small poor and rich class but the masses are middle class?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> NO, I do NOT mean anything of the such, and never implied such nonsense.
> Just curious, what would be wrong with fair, equal, and balanced foreign trade agreements and policies?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> We should help good 3rd world nations if they plan on using their prosperity to lift their citizens out of poverty and if they have something to trade.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> FYI -- Charity starts at home. Why should we help foreign economies before we help our own? Why should we spend hard earned American tax dollars abroad before spending them here to stabilize our own economy? What would be wrong with putting Americans back to work, producing what America uses and consumes? Why sacrifice our own economic well-being in order to strengthen foreign economies? Do American taxpayers want their tax dollars spent elsewhere to assist others, while America experiences economic hardships? Do we elect representatives to serve us, or do we elect them to serve the world, and place America last on the priority list?
> 
> Please answer all questions honestly. Thanks.
Click to expand...

You asked 6 questions. Most of the points you are making I would agree with. I'm a liberal. I like unions. I'm pro labor.


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## Sonny Clark

BlackSand said:


> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> Bush and the GOP before they lost power in 2006 passed laws giving countries tax breaks if they moved their operations out of the country.
> 
> The GOP drafted NAFTA. Only reason Clinton signed it is because hw bush lost his re election. It was a done deal.
> 
> Are you an isolationist? I agree we should have protected our vital manufacturing base but you guys said Americans want too much.
> 
> Keep in mind union companies moved to Mexico India and China, not Texas. Why?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It is pretty foolish to think that the GOP or Democrats can fix the problems in South America when they cannot even keep manufacturing here in the States.
> As much grandstanding as our political parties do concerning NAFTA and other trade agreements ... We are not the ones making better conditions in South American countries when that occurs.
> 
> It is the corporations that move there and develop the surround areas and resources that benefit the countries.
> 
> Plus ... Environmentalism, sustainability, good manufacturing processes, employee safety and community resource development are not mysteries anymore.
> The countries know about these initiatives and their benefits ... The policies and procedures are already vetted and proven in more developed countries.
> South American countries that are interested in developing ... Have a blue-print in place for better methods.
> These things are usually required as part of any business agreement between incoming corporations and developing countries.
> 
> *Edit:*
> In maybe the shortest way possible to explain the major benefit ...
> Corporations and businesses that want to make profits are more interested in countries who are eager to help them ... Than they are interested in countries looking for more ways to punish or handicap them.
> 
> Sometimes it is really that simple!
> 
> 
> .
Click to expand...

But, it's the American corporations and business community that fund election campaigns. Businesses look for the cheapest labor, the fewest amount of rules and regulations, and the ease of export/import. We ( corporate America ) actually LOVE foreign economic environments. And, since we basically have free and open trade, who can blame corporate America for taking advantage of a sweet arrangement? We sacrifice our economic well-being in favor of strengthening foreign economies.


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## Sonny Clark

sealybobo said:


> Sonny Clark said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sonny Clark said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sonny Clark said:
> 
> 
> 
> The term "Global Economy" basically means "equalization to the lowest level". Use the U.S.A. as an example.
> 
> 
> 
> Actually I heard a Republican author the other day that pointed out that while free trade has hurt the masses in America it has brought billions of non Americans out of poverty.
> 
> Mexico, every other s. American country we do free trade with in south america including Cuba and Columbia now, India, china, Africa.
> 
> If you mean you'd prefer a dog eat dog world of winners and losers that produces a small rich and merchant class and the masses are poor vs our way where theres a small poor and rich class but the masses are middle class?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> NO, I do NOT mean anything of the such, and never implied such nonsense.
> Just curious, what would be wrong with fair, equal, and balanced foreign trade agreements and policies?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> We should help good 3rd world nations if they plan on using their prosperity to lift their citizens out of poverty and if they have something to trade.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> FYI -- Charity starts at home. Why should we help foreign economies before we help our own? Why should we spend hard earned American tax dollars abroad before spending them here to stabilize our own economy? What would be wrong with putting Americans back to work, producing what America uses and consumes? Why sacrifice our own economic well-being in order to strengthen foreign economies? Do American taxpayers want their tax dollars spent elsewhere to assist others, while America experiences economic hardships? Do we elect representatives to serve us, or do we elect them to serve the world, and place America last on the priority list?
> 
> Please answer all questions honestly. Thanks.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> We did it because corporations and the rich wanted us to.
Click to expand...

Do you suppose that the anti-America professional politicians seated in Washington had anything to do with it? Would you guess that our government is bought and paid for by the wealthy, the powerful, and the influential? Or, do you believe that corporate America did it all on their own, wrote their own trade agreements and policies, and cut Washington out of the picture?


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## Sonny Clark

sealybobo said:


> Sonny Clark said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sonny Clark said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sonny Clark said:
> 
> 
> 
> The term "Global Economy" basically means "equalization to the lowest level". Use the U.S.A. as an example.
> 
> 
> 
> Actually I heard a Republican author the other day that pointed out that while free trade has hurt the masses in America it has brought billions of non Americans out of poverty.
> 
> Mexico, every other s. American country we do free trade with in south america including Cuba and Columbia now, India, china, Africa.
> 
> If you mean you'd prefer a dog eat dog world of winners and losers that produces a small rich and merchant class and the masses are poor vs our way where theres a small poor and rich class but the masses are middle class?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> NO, I do NOT mean anything of the such, and never implied such nonsense.
> Just curious, what would be wrong with fair, equal, and balanced foreign trade agreements and policies?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> We should help good 3rd world nations if they plan on using their prosperity to lift their citizens out of poverty and if they have something to trade.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> FYI -- Charity starts at home. Why should we help foreign economies before we help our own? Why should we spend hard earned American tax dollars abroad before spending them here to stabilize our own economy? What would be wrong with putting Americans back to work, producing what America uses and consumes? Why sacrifice our own economic well-being in order to strengthen foreign economies? Do American taxpayers want their tax dollars spent elsewhere to assist others, while America experiences economic hardships? Do we elect representatives to serve us, or do we elect them to serve the world, and place America last on the priority list?
> 
> Please answer all questions honestly. Thanks.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You asked 6 questions. Most of the points you are making I would agree with. I'm a liberal. I like unions. I'm pro labor.
Click to expand...

I am NOT a Liberal, Conservative, Moderate, Republican, Democrat, Right wing, Left Wing, nor anything other than an American for America. In my opinion, unions helped in sending our jobs to foreign labor markets. I am pro American labor.


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## Sonny Clark

sealybobo said:


> The Irish Ram said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> BlackSand said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Irish Ram said:
> 
> 
> 
> Sure they can become profitable.  Elect more democrats.  They are using our money to prop up every country but ours.  Hitlery can get to them as soon as she robs us to build up India.  Can you say, "made in India"?  Wal-mart can't wait!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Uh ... Most South American countries are benefiting more from corporations and investors pissed off with the overburdening governmental policies in the US.
> I wouldn't go so far as to suggest it is all a good thing or all a bad thing ... Just a lot easier for a country to get excited about improvements when they amount to revenue increases.
> 
> At the stage some South American Countries are ... They leave you alone to do your business because the increased revenues are worth the effort.
> 
> .
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Of course they are benefiting from corporations leaving (we are going to tax you to death) America, and moving to their countries.  Thank NAFTA, and soon the Pacific Trade deal.     Anybody's allowed to profit but us.  Because equality doesn't mean, bring other countries up to our standard, it means whittling  us down to theirs.
> 
> So if over taxing the "1%" means the 1% are leaving and taking their jobs with them, do you still think that taxing to the hilt is an incentive for companies wanting to do business here?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> If they don't pay taxes you'll have to and that will bring your quality of life down.
> 
> The 1% are going to go where wages are lowest if we allow them to without tariffs.  Tax them and if abc company won't move their operations home xyz company will take their business.
> 
> Only a government for we the people will do the right things. Unfortunately America is owned by the rich now. They say what goes.
> 
> Who's to blame? Middle class dicks who vote republican
Click to expand...

FYI - Both, I repeat, BOTH Democrats and Republicans vote to elect anti-America low-life self-serving egotistical self-centered greedy professional politicians to serve in government, and have done so for over a half century now.


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## BlackSand

Sonny Clark said:


> But, it's the American corporations and business community that fund election campaigns. Businesses look for the cheapest labor, the fewest amount of rules and regulations, and the ease on export/import. We ( corporate America ) actually LOVE foreign economic environments. And, since we basically have free and open trade, who can blame corporate America for taking advantage of a sweet arrangement? We sacrifice our economic well-being in favor of strengthening foreign economies.



Lolz ... Sonny ... Some corporations have chosen to keep their interests within the American system ... But most corporations still have international business and interests.
As long as the government wants to punish or pander corporations ... Then there are players that will play that system.
You cannot buy what is not for sale ... And that includes influence in the political sector.

I think what some people are missing is the amount of capital resources corporations are earning offshore and holding offshore.
To bring those resources back into the states ... They would be taxed anywhere from 35-43%.
There are enough capital resources offshore for American corporations ... That if a better agreement could be made in bringing them back ... The Fed wouldn't have to keep printing money and signing blank checks.

Mitt Romney had a plan for this ... But he didn't get elected.

.


----------



## Sonny Clark

BlackSand said:


> Sonny Clark said:
> 
> 
> 
> But, it's the American corporations and business community that fund election campaigns. Businesses look for the cheapest labor, the fewest amount of rules and regulations, and the ease on export/import. We ( corporate America ) actually LOVE foreign economic environments. And, since we basically have free and open trade, who can blame corporate America for taking advantage of a sweet arrangement? We sacrifice our economic well-being in favor of strengthening foreign economies.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Lolz ... Sonny ... Some corporations have chosen to keep their interests within the American system ... But most corporations still have international business and interests.
> As long as the government wants to punish or pander corporations ... Then there are players that will play that system.
> You cannot by what is not for sale ... And that includes influence in the political sector.
> 
> I think what some people are missing is the amount of capital resources corporations are earning offshore and holding offshore.
> To bring those resources back into the states ... They would be taxed anywhere from 35-43%.
> There are enough capital resources offshore for American corporations ... That if a better agreement could be made in bringing them back ... The Fed wouldn't have to keep printing money and signing blank checks.
> 
> Mitt Romney had a plan for this ... But he didn't get elected.
> 
> .
Click to expand...

They all work together. Our government is nothing more than a puppet, dancing to the tunes played by the wealthy, the powerful, and the influential. Our government knows about off-shore money. Our government approves of it, and condones it. There are many major corporations in America that are almost entirely owned by foreign interest, or partially owned by foreign interests. Government works for corporate America, and corporate America works for government. They share the same bed. Track campaign financing. Track the untold multi-$millions handed out by Lobbyists. Our government is bought and paid for. Legislation and policy is bought and paid for. All of this is common knowledge, and has been common knowledge for many decades now. We've been sold out for decades.


----------



## BlackSand

Sonny Clark said:


> They all work together. Our government is nothing more than a puppet, dancing to the tunes played by the wealthy, the powerful, and the influential. Our government knows about off-shore money. Our government approves of it, and condones it. There are many major corporations in America that are almost entirely owned by foreign interest, or partially owned by foreign interests. Government works for corporate America, and corporate America works for government. They share the same bed. Track campaign financing. Track the untold multi-$millions handed out by Lobbyists. Our government is bought and paid for. Legislation and policy is bought and paid for. All of this is common knowledge, and has been common knowledge for many decades now. We've been sold out for decades.



Whatever your opinion of the government ... Don't extend their power further than it exists.
They have no power over the capital resources corporations hold offshore ... And their agreement/approval is unnecessary and irrelevant.

Otherwise ... There is no difference in lobbying for a corporation and lobbying voters for votes.
Corporations do control their resources and there is little to nothing the government can do about that outside of the country.
If you for any reason have been "sold out" ... It would simply be a case of a very poor investment on your part.

Wait for the government, corporation, union, social net or your neighbor to secure your wellbeing ... And you submit to being at their mercy.
That is a piss poor agreement if you ask me ... Which no one seems that likely to do ... 

.


----------



## westwall

sealybobo said:


> Can Mexico ever become like Australia or Canada?
> 
> Should all the countries unite like Europe did with the Euro?
> 
> I know corruption is bad. Is this the problem? The crime cartels?
> 
> I'm in manufacturing and know there are thousand of manufacturing plants south of the border. Having a strong manufacturing sector is good. Why isn't that prosperity trickling down? Or is it? I hope one day Mexicans don't need to cross the border just like Canadians.









Mexico certainly could.  They are the 5th wealthiest country on the planet in terms of mineral wealth.  However, their corrupt leadership keeps Mexico a third world country and they push their discontents north to us to relive the pressure.

Mexico truly needs a REAL revolution to get rid of the scumbags who have been raping that country for well over a century.


----------



## The Irish Ram

> It is the corporations that move there and develop the surround areas and resources that benefit the countries


.

^ Read that statement Black Sand made.  It is 100% accurate. Read it again.  What is a benefit to the countries?  What benefits the countries?  Corporations.  Corporations moving there, and developing.  

Now you understand why we have no jobs and they do. Now you get why our middle class has been gutted.   Because our country turned Corporations into targets, turned them into public enemy #1% and then taxed them out of our country.  We are not developing.  We are crumbling.  Now the Democrats want the Corporations to move to India and benefit them.  And they will spend every dime they can on making India worthy of the Corporation's attention.  And they'll continue to target the 1%ers/Corporations here.  And the stupid Americans will cheer on their way to the welfare line.


----------



## BlackSand

The Irish Ram said:


> ^ Read that statement Black Sand made.  It is 100% accurate. Read it again.  What is a benefit to the countries?  What benefits the countries?  Corporations.  Corporations moving there, and developing.
> 
> Now you understand why we have no jobs and they do. Now you get why our middle class has been gutted.   Because our country turned Corporations into targets, turned them into public enemy #1% and then taxed them out of our country.  We are not developing.  We are crumbling.  Now the Democrats want the Corporations to move to India and benefit them.  And they will spend every dime they can on making India worthy of the Corporation's attention.  And they'll continue to target the 1%ers/Corporations here.  And the stupid Americans will cheer on their way to the welfare line.



I don't think Americans realize that our productivity is being pressed more towards an aristocratic society (minus farming and basic services).
We are already a world leader in supplying services in the global markets versus exports.
Maybe as short as 50 years from now ... The average American worker will get on a plane once a month and go fix problems elsewhere that they couldn't fix from their desk with a few phone calls.

Buckle Up Heroes!

.


----------



## Sonny Clark

BlackSand said:


> Sonny Clark said:
> 
> 
> 
> They all work together. Our government is nothing more than a puppet, dancing to the tunes played by the wealthy, the powerful, and the influential. Our government knows about off-shore money. Our government approves of it, and condones it. There are many major corporations in America that are almost entirely owned by foreign interest, or partially owned by foreign interests. Government works for corporate America, and corporate America works for government. They share the same bed. Track campaign financing. Track the untold multi-$millions handed out by Lobbyists. Our government is bought and paid for. Legislation and policy is bought and paid for. All of this is common knowledge, and has been common knowledge for many decades now. We've been sold out for decades.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Whatever your opinion of the government ... Don't extend their power further than it exists.
> They have no power over the capital resources corporations hold offshore ... And their agreement/approval is unnecessary and irrelevant.
> 
> Otherwise ... There is no difference in lobbying for a corporation and lobbying voters for votes.
> Corporations do control their resources and there is little to nothing the government can do about that outside of the country.
> If you for any reason have been "sold out" ... It would simply be a case of a very poor investment on your part.
> 
> Wait for the government, corporation, union, social net or your neighbor to secure your wellbeing ... And you submit to being at their mercy.
> That is a piss poor agreement if you ask me ... Which no one seems that likely to do ...
> 
> .
Click to expand...

The WHOLE country has been sold out, not just me. I don't depend on government, nor corporations for anything. I think that you totally misunderstand by use of "sold out".


----------



## BlackSand

Sonny Clark said:


> The WHOLE country has been sold out, not just me. I don't depend on government, nor corporations for anything. I think that you totally misunderstand by use of "sold out".



That wouldn't be the whole country ... I am part of this country at the moment and haven't been sold out.
Of course I never made an investment in the government or implied societal concerns after my military service (which thankfully taught me what I needed to know).
The only way you or anyone else could be "sold out" ... Is if you expected something (anything) from someone else.

I understand what you meant by being "sold out" ... You should have invested more faith in yourself than the government or anything else as far as securing the American Dream.

.


----------



## sealybobo

Sonny Clark said:


> BlackSand said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> Bush and the GOP before they lost power in 2006 passed laws giving countries tax breaks if they moved their operations out of the country.
> 
> The GOP drafted NAFTA. Only reason Clinton signed it is because hw bush lost his re election. It was a done deal.
> 
> Are you an isolationist? I agree we should have protected our vital manufacturing base but you guys said Americans want too much.
> 
> Keep in mind union companies moved to Mexico India and China, not Texas. Why?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It is pretty foolish to think that the GOP or Democrats can fix the problems in South America when they cannot even keep manufacturing here in the States.
> As much grandstanding as our political parties do concerning NAFTA and other trade agreements ... We are not the ones making better conditions in South American countries when that occurs.
> 
> It is the corporations that move there and develop the surround areas and resources that benefit the countries.
> 
> Plus ... Environmentalism, sustainability, good manufacturing processes, employee safety and community resource development are not mysteries anymore.
> The countries know about these initiatives and their benefits ... The policies and procedures are already vetted and proven in more developed countries.
> South American countries that are interested in developing ... Have a blue-print in place for better methods.
> These things are usually required as part of any business agreement between incoming corporations and developing countries.
> 
> *Edit:*
> In maybe the shortest way possible to explain the major benefit ...
> Corporations and businesses that want to make profits are more interested in countries who are eager to help them ... Than they are interested in countries looking for more ways to punish or handicap them.
> 
> Sometimes it is really that simple!
> 
> 
> .
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> But, it's the American corporations and business community that fund election campaigns. Businesses look for the cheapest labor, the fewest amount of rules and regulations, and the ease of export/import. We ( corporate America ) actually LOVE foreign economic environments. And, since we basically have free and open trade, who can blame corporate America for taking advantage of a sweet arrangement? We sacrifice our economic well-being in favor of strengthening foreign economies.
Click to expand...

Why do you call them American corporations? Corporations have no boundaries. They are international corporations.


----------



## sealybobo

Sonny Clark said:


> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sonny Clark said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sonny Clark said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> Actually I heard a Republican author the other day that pointed out that while free trade has hurt the masses in America it has brought billions of non Americans out of poverty.
> 
> Mexico, every other s. American country we do free trade with in south america including Cuba and Columbia now, India, china, Africa.
> 
> If you mean you'd prefer a dog eat dog world of winners and losers that produces a small rich and merchant class and the masses are poor vs our way where theres a small poor and rich class but the masses are middle class?
> 
> 
> 
> NO, I do NOT mean anything of the such, and never implied such nonsense.
> Just curious, what would be wrong with fair, equal, and balanced foreign trade agreements and policies?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> We should help good 3rd world nations if they plan on using their prosperity to lift their citizens out of poverty and if they have something to trade.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> FYI -- Charity starts at home. Why should we help foreign economies before we help our own? Why should we spend hard earned American tax dollars abroad before spending them here to stabilize our own economy? What would be wrong with putting Americans back to work, producing what America uses and consumes? Why sacrifice our own economic well-being in order to strengthen foreign economies? Do American taxpayers want their tax dollars spent elsewhere to assist others, while America experiences economic hardships? Do we elect representatives to serve us, or do we elect them to serve the world, and place America last on the priority list?
> 
> Please answer all questions honestly. Thanks.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> We did it because corporations and the rich wanted us to.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Do you suppose that the anti-America professional politicians seated in Washington had anything to do with it? Would you guess that our government is bought and paid for by the wealthy, the powerful, and the influential? Or, do you believe that corporate America did it all on their own, wrote their own trade agreements and policies, and cut Washington out of the picture?
Click to expand...

Agreed. So why do you blame the middle class and poor?


----------



## Sonny Clark

BlackSand said:


> Sonny Clark said:
> 
> 
> 
> The WHOLE country has been sold out, not just me. I don't depend on government, nor corporations for anything. I think that you totally misunderstand by use of "sold out".
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That wouldn't be the whole country ... I am part of this country at the moment and haven't been sold out.
> Of course I never made an investment in the government or implied societal concerns after my military service (which taught me what I needed to know).
> The only way you or anyone else could be "sold out" ... Is if you expected something (anything) from someone else.
> 
> I understand what you meant by being "sold out" ... You should have invested more faith in yourself than the government or anything else as far as securing the American Dream.
> 
> .
Click to expand...

You have totally misunderstood me, obviously. I am NOT talking about investments


BlackSand said:


> Sonny Clark said:
> 
> 
> 
> The WHOLE country has been sold out, not just me. I don't depend on government, nor corporations for anything. I think that you totally misunderstand by use of "sold out".
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That wouldn't be the whole country ... I am part of this country at the moment and haven't been sold out.
> Of course I never made an investment in the government or implied societal concerns after my military service (which thankfully taught me what I needed to know).
> The only way you or anyone else could be "sold out" ... Is if you expected something (anything) from someone else.
> 
> I understand what you meant by being "sold out" ... You should have invested more faith in yourself than the government or anything else as far as securing the American Dream.
> 
> .
Click to expand...

Where in this world did investments come into this conversation? I have said absolutely nothing about investments. I haven't implied anything about investments. Investments is the least of our worries.


----------



## Sonny Clark

sealybobo said:


> Sonny Clark said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> BlackSand said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> Bush and the GOP before they lost power in 2006 passed laws giving countries tax breaks if they moved their operations out of the country.
> 
> The GOP drafted NAFTA. Only reason Clinton signed it is because hw bush lost his re election. It was a done deal.
> 
> Are you an isolationist? I agree we should have protected our vital manufacturing base but you guys said Americans want too much.
> 
> Keep in mind union companies moved to Mexico India and China, not Texas. Why?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It is pretty foolish to think that the GOP or Democrats can fix the problems in South America when they cannot even keep manufacturing here in the States.
> As much grandstanding as our political parties do concerning NAFTA and other trade agreements ... We are not the ones making better conditions in South American countries when that occurs.
> 
> It is the corporations that move there and develop the surround areas and resources that benefit the countries.
> 
> Plus ... Environmentalism, sustainability, good manufacturing processes, employee safety and community resource development are not mysteries anymore.
> The countries know about these initiatives and their benefits ... The policies and procedures are already vetted and proven in more developed countries.
> South American countries that are interested in developing ... Have a blue-print in place for better methods.
> These things are usually required as part of any business agreement between incoming corporations and developing countries.
> 
> *Edit:*
> In maybe the shortest way possible to explain the major benefit ...
> Corporations and businesses that want to make profits are more interested in countries who are eager to help them ... Than they are interested in countries looking for more ways to punish or handicap them.
> 
> Sometimes it is really that simple!
> 
> 
> .
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> But, it's the American corporations and business community that fund election campaigns. Businesses look for the cheapest labor, the fewest amount of rules and regulations, and the ease of export/import. We ( corporate America ) actually LOVE foreign economic environments. And, since we basically have free and open trade, who can blame corporate America for taking advantage of a sweet arrangement? We sacrifice our economic well-being in favor of strengthening foreign economies.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Why do you call them American corporations? Corporations have no boundaries. They are international corporations.
Click to expand...

Go back and READ. I have said that many corporation are either almost entirely owned by foreign interests, or partially owned by foreign interest. Please, go back and read what I have said. Thanks.


----------



## Sonny Clark

sealybobo said:


> Sonny Clark said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sonny Clark said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sonny Clark said:
> 
> 
> 
> NO, I do NOT mean anything of the such, and never implied such nonsense.
> Just curious, what would be wrong with fair, equal, and balanced foreign trade agreements and policies?
> 
> 
> 
> We should help good 3rd world nations if they plan on using their prosperity to lift their citizens out of poverty and if they have something to trade.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> FYI -- Charity starts at home. Why should we help foreign economies before we help our own? Why should we spend hard earned American tax dollars abroad before spending them here to stabilize our own economy? What would be wrong with putting Americans back to work, producing what America uses and consumes? Why sacrifice our own economic well-being in order to strengthen foreign economies? Do American taxpayers want their tax dollars spent elsewhere to assist others, while America experiences economic hardships? Do we elect representatives to serve us, or do we elect them to serve the world, and place America last on the priority list?
> 
> Please answer all questions honestly. Thanks.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> We did it because corporations and the rich wanted us to.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Do you suppose that the anti-America professional politicians seated in Washington had anything to do with it? Would you guess that our government is bought and paid for by the wealthy, the powerful, and the influential? Or, do you believe that corporate America did it all on their own, wrote their own trade agreements and policies, and cut Washington out of the picture?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Agreed. So why do you blame the middle class and poor?
Click to expand...

Where have I ever said that I blame the Middle Class or the poor? I have never said such, nor implied such.


----------



## sealybobo

BlackSand said:


> Sonny Clark said:
> 
> 
> 
> The WHOLE country has been sold out, not just me. I don't depend on government, nor corporations for anything. I think that you totally misunderstand by use of "sold out".
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That wouldn't be the whole country ... I am part of this country at the moment and haven't been sold out.
> Of course I never made an investment in the government or implied societal concerns after my military service (which thankfully taught me what I needed to know).
> The only way you or anyone else could be "sold out" ... Is if you expected something (anything) from someone else.
> 
> I understand what you meant by being "sold out" ... You should have invested more faith in yourself than the government or anything else as far as securing the American Dream.
> 
> .
Click to expand...

What would you be without that 4 years the government took you in and gave you a job. And they didn't draft you, you chose to be on the government tit for 4 years and get a free degree and access to government benefits like the va.

We respect and appreciate you putting aside your hatred of socialism to take a socialist government service Jon in the public sector.


----------



## The Irish Ram

Common core will prevent Americans from being smart enough to get on a plane and fix anything.  India will be trained to fix whatever needs fixing.

And corporations here do pay taxes.  More than their share, but we keep demanding  more and more, and demonize  those 1%ers.  We declared war on the very people that *used to* hire us.  How stupid.

Ohio is offering tax breaks for 10 years and businesses are hanging their hats in Ohio.  And hiring people to help them run their businesses.  Those people spend their paychecks at the local restaurants and flower shops, and markets.
Businesses appreciate the relationship so they build a nice big park and indoor pool for the community.   It is a much better scenario for everyone involved.
Socialism is a scourge that steals everything you own.  Ask the socialist.  Bernie wants 99%.
You will never see a 99% return.


----------



## BlackSand

Sonny Clark said:


> Where in this world did investments come into this conversation? I have said absolutely nothing about investments. I haven't implied anything about investments. Investments is the least of our worries.



Any effort, attention, money, vote, agreement, understanding, acceptance, compliance or action that supports an idea, government, organization, group, person or other enity is an investment of resources, energy, money, or effort.

For me to answer your post ... Is an "investment" in the possibility that you may understand  the response.

.


----------



## sealybobo

Sonny Clark said:


> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sonny Clark said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sonny Clark said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> We should help good 3rd world nations if they plan on using their prosperity to lift their citizens out of poverty and if they have something to trade.
> 
> 
> 
> FYI -- Charity starts at home. Why should we help foreign economies before we help our own? Why should we spend hard earned American tax dollars abroad before spending them here to stabilize our own economy? What would be wrong with putting Americans back to work, producing what America uses and consumes? Why sacrifice our own economic well-being in order to strengthen foreign economies? Do American taxpayers want their tax dollars spent elsewhere to assist others, while America experiences economic hardships? Do we elect representatives to serve us, or do we elect them to serve the world, and place America last on the priority list?
> 
> Please answer all questions honestly. Thanks.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> We did it because corporations and the rich wanted us to.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Do you suppose that the anti-America professional politicians seated in Washington had anything to do with it? Would you guess that our government is bought and paid for by the wealthy, the powerful, and the influential? Or, do you believe that corporate America did it all on their own, wrote their own trade agreements and policies, and cut Washington out of the picture?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Agreed. So why do you blame the middle class and poor?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Where have I ever said that I blame the Middle Class or the poor? I have never said such, nor implied such.
Click to expand...

Republicans blame the overpaid American worker. The middle class. Too many of us make too much. They say we are why corporations go to Mexico or china.


----------



## Sonny Clark

sealybobo said:


> BlackSand said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sonny Clark said:
> 
> 
> 
> The WHOLE country has been sold out, not just me. I don't depend on government, nor corporations for anything. I think that you totally misunderstand by use of "sold out".
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That wouldn't be the whole country ... I am part of this country at the moment and haven't been sold out.
> Of course I never made an investment in the government or implied societal concerns after my military service (which thankfully taught me what I needed to know).
> The only way you or anyone else could be "sold out" ... Is if you expected something (anything) from someone else.
> 
> I understand what you meant by being "sold out" ... You should have invested more faith in yourself than the government or anything else as far as securing the American Dream.
> 
> .
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> What would you be without that 4 years the government took you in and gave you a job. And they didn't draft you, you chose to be on the government tit for 4 years and get a free degree and access to government benefits like the va.
> 
> We respect and appreciate you putting aside your hatred of socialism to take a socialist government service Jon in the public sector.
Click to expand...

Bullshit. I was drafted in 1966. You know absolutely nothing about me, nor my military service. The government didn't give me shit. I have never ever used my VA benefits. You're full of shit. Have we ever met in person? Do you know my background? Do you know anything about my personal life? If so, how do you know it?


----------



## sealybobo

The Irish Ram said:


> Common core will prevent Americans from being smart enough to get on a plane and fix anything.  India will be trained to fix whatever needs fixing.
> 
> And corporations here do pay taxes.  More than their share, but we keep demanding  more and more, and demonize  those 1%ers.  We declared war on the very people that hired us.  How stupid.
> 
> Ohio is offering tax breaks for 10 years and businesses are hanging their hats in Ohio.  And hiring people to help them run their businesses.  Those people spend their paychecks at the local restaurants and flower shops, and markets.
> Businesses appreciate the relationship so they build a nice big park and indoor pool for the community.   It is a much better scenario for everyone involved.
> Socialism is a scourge that steals everything you own.  Ask the socialist.  Bernie wants 99%.
> You will never see a 99% return.


We don't require more and more from the rich. The tax breaks to them gotta stop and politicians need to go back to taraffs and taxing. Don't just roll back the bush tax breaks, roll back the Reagan ones too.

It's the rich who keep asking for and getting more.


----------



## The Irish Ram

The Irish Ram said:


> Common core will prevent Americans from being smart enough to get on a plane and fix anything.  India will be trained to fix whatever needs fixing.
> 
> And corporations here do pay taxes.  More than their share, but we keep demanding  more and more, and demonize  those 1%ers.  We declared war on the very people that *used to* hire us.  How stupid.
> 
> Ohio is offering tax breaks for 10 years and businesses are hanging their hats in Ohio.  And hiring people to help them run their businesses.  Those people spend their paychecks at the local restaurants and flower shops, and markets.
> Businesses appreciate the relationship so they build a nice big park and indoor pool for the community.   It is a much better scenario for everyone involved.
> Socialism is a scourge that steals everything you own.  Ask the socialist.  Bernie wants 99%.
> You will never see a 99% return.



Yep it's funny alright.  Ohioans are laughing all the way to the bank once again. 
And the pool is open!


----------



## sealybobo

Sonny Clark said:


> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> BlackSand said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sonny Clark said:
> 
> 
> 
> The WHOLE country has been sold out, not just me. I don't depend on government, nor corporations for anything. I think that you totally misunderstand by use of "sold out".
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That wouldn't be the whole country ... I am part of this country at the moment and haven't been sold out.
> Of course I never made an investment in the government or implied societal concerns after my military service (which thankfully taught me what I needed to know).
> The only way you or anyone else could be "sold out" ... Is if you expected something (anything) from someone else.
> 
> I understand what you meant by being "sold out" ... You should have invested more faith in yourself than the government or anything else as far as securing the American Dream.
> 
> .
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> What would you be without that 4 years the government took you in and gave you a job. And they didn't draft you, you chose to be on the government tit for 4 years and get a free degree and access to government benefits like the va.
> 
> We respect and appreciate you putting aside your hatred of socialism to take a socialist government service Jon in the public sector.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Bullshit. I was drafted in 1966. You know absolutely nothing about me, nor my military service. The government didn't give me shit. I have never ever used my VA benefits. You're full of shit. Have we ever met in person? Do you know my background? Do you know anything about my personal life? If so, how do you know it?
Click to expand...

You are a liberal 23 year old fat Asian gay as far as I can tell


----------



## Sonny Clark

BlackSand said:


> Sonny Clark said:
> 
> 
> 
> Where in this world did investments come into this conversation? I have said absolutely nothing about investments. I haven't implied anything about investments. Investments is the least of our worries.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Any effort, attention, money, vote, agreement, understanding, acceptance, compliance or action that supports an idea, government, organization, group, person or other enity is an investment of resources, energy, money, or effort.
> 
> For me to answer your post ... Is an "investment" in the possibility that you may understand  the response.
> 
> .
Click to expand...

FYI - Every single American taxpayer is invested in America, period. And, every single American not wealthy, not powerful, and not influential, has been sold out. And, I'm NOT talking about personal investments. I'm talking about this once great nation. Would you like a list?

 And, if it were an investment, as you call it, then our investment is worthless as we speak. Do you realize how many future generations of Americans have already been saddled with astronomical debt?


----------



## BlackSand

sealybobo said:


> What would you be without that 4 years the government took you in and gave you a job. And they didn't draft you, you chose to be on the government tit for 4 years and get a free degree and access to government benefits like the va.
> 
> We respect and appreciate you putting aside your hatred of socialism to take a socialist government service Jon in the public sector.



Seven years ... Not 4 and never stationed stateside except for training.
I got the opportunity to see the world ... Some really shitty parts of the world to be exact.
I used the GI Bill to go to college and get a piece of paper to hang on the wall I have never used for anything other than a decoration.

The military didn't teach me to hate socialism, liberalism or America ... It gave me an appreciation for the opportunities we as Americans have at our disposal ... And the intestinal fortitude to put it all on the line and go for it.

.


----------



## Sonny Clark

sealybobo said:


> Sonny Clark said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sonny Clark said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sonny Clark said:
> 
> 
> 
> FYI -- Charity starts at home. Why should we help foreign economies before we help our own? Why should we spend hard earned American tax dollars abroad before spending them here to stabilize our own economy? What would be wrong with putting Americans back to work, producing what America uses and consumes? Why sacrifice our own economic well-being in order to strengthen foreign economies? Do American taxpayers want their tax dollars spent elsewhere to assist others, while America experiences economic hardships? Do we elect representatives to serve us, or do we elect them to serve the world, and place America last on the priority list?
> 
> Please answer all questions honestly. Thanks.
> 
> 
> 
> We did it because corporations and the rich wanted us to.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Do you suppose that the anti-America professional politicians seated in Washington had anything to do with it? Would you guess that our government is bought and paid for by the wealthy, the powerful, and the influential? Or, do you believe that corporate America did it all on their own, wrote their own trade agreements and policies, and cut Washington out of the picture?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Agreed. So why do you blame the middle class and poor?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Where have I ever said that I blame the Middle Class or the poor? I have never said such, nor implied such.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Republicans blame the overpaid American worker. The middle class. Too many of us make too much. They say we are why corporations go to Mexico or china.
Click to expand...

FYI - I am NOT a Republican, nor a Democrat.


----------



## BlackSand

Sonny Clark said:


> FYI - Every single American taxpayer is invested in America, period. And, every single American not wealthy, not powerful, and not influential, has been sold out. And, I'm NOT talking about personal investments. I'm talking about this once great nation. Would you like a list?
> 
> And, if it were an investment, as you call it, then our investment is worthless as we speak. Do you realize how many future generations of Americans have already been saddled with astronomical debt?



I pay my taxes because I am invested in not going to jail ... You are free to pay yours for whatever reason you want.
And ... I am not going to argue with the concept you might have made a worthless investment at some point.

.


----------



## Sonny Clark

sealybobo said:


> Sonny Clark said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> BlackSand said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sonny Clark said:
> 
> 
> 
> The WHOLE country has been sold out, not just me. I don't depend on government, nor corporations for anything. I think that you totally misunderstand by use of "sold out".
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That wouldn't be the whole country ... I am part of this country at the moment and haven't been sold out.
> Of course I never made an investment in the government or implied societal concerns after my military service (which thankfully taught me what I needed to know).
> The only way you or anyone else could be "sold out" ... Is if you expected something (anything) from someone else.
> 
> I understand what you meant by being "sold out" ... You should have invested more faith in yourself than the government or anything else as far as securing the American Dream.
> 
> .
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> What would you be without that 4 years the government took you in and gave you a job. And they didn't draft you, you chose to be on the government tit for 4 years and get a free degree and access to government benefits like the va.
> 
> We respect and appreciate you putting aside your hatred of socialism to take a socialist government service Jon in the public sector.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Bullshit. I was drafted in 1966. You know absolutely nothing about me, nor my military service. The government didn't give me shit. I have never ever used my VA benefits. You're full of shit. Have we ever met in person? Do you know my background? Do you know anything about my personal life? If so, how do you know it?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You are a liberal 23 year old fat Asian gay as far as I can tell
Click to expand...

And you're a low-life fucking asshole, as far as I can tell. .... FYI - I am NOT a Liberal, Conservative, Moderate, Independent, Republican, Democrat, Left Wing, Right Wing, nor anything other than an American for America, period. Also, for your information, asshole, I'll be 68 years young tomorrow. No, I am NOT an Asian, by any stretch of the imagination. So, by your pathetic silly immature comments, you know absolutely nothing about me.

Anything else turd lip? If so, lets hear it.


----------



## Sonny Clark

BlackSand said:


> Sonny Clark said:
> 
> 
> 
> FYI - Every single American taxpayer is invested in America, period. And, every single American not wealthy, not powerful, and not influential, has been sold out. And, I'm NOT talking about personal investments. I'm talking about this once great nation. Would you like a list?
> 
> And, if it were an investment, as you call it, then our investment is worthless as we speak. Do you realize how many future generations of Americans have already been saddled with astronomical debt?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I pay my taxes because I am invested in not going to jail ... You are free to pay yours for whatever reason you want.
> And ... I am not going to argue with the concept you might have made a worthless investment at some point.
> 
> .
Click to expand...

I pay my taxes. I'm an American taxpayer, and have been for many years. And, who hasn't made an investment in America via their taxes? That's just common sense.


----------



## BlackSand

Sonny Clark said:


> I pay my taxes. I'm an American taxpayer, and have been for many years. And, who hasn't made an investment in America via their taxes? That's just common sense.



Are you happy with your investment in America and the returns you receive for the effort and resources you donated to the cause?

I don't bitch about it ... And feel that I have received adequate returns for my investment.
Not that I am stupid enough to believe better resource management and oversight would be more beneficial ... But I don't expect much from the government since they pretty much ensure they are incapable of doing what should be done.

*Edit:*
Perhaps an anecdotal analogy may explain it better ...

I primarily purchase and use vehicles that consume large amounts of gasoline for business and recreation purposes.
My friends get very irritated with me if I don't go ape shit when the price of fuel goes up and they want to piss and whine about it.
When they ask me why it doesn't bother me I tell them ... "It just means I need to earn more money to support my desires".

The clue is to stop thinking about how things don't work ... And start taking advantage of how things do work.

.


----------



## sealybobo

Sonny Clark said:


> BlackSand said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sonny Clark said:
> 
> 
> 
> Where in this world did investments come into this conversation? I have said absolutely nothing about investments. I haven't implied anything about investments. Investments is the least of our worries.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Any effort, attention, money, vote, agreement, understanding, acceptance, compliance or action that supports an idea, government, organization, group, person or other enity is an investment of resources, energy, money, or effort.
> 
> For me to answer your post ... Is an "investment" in the possibility that you may understand  the response.
> 
> .
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> FYI - Every single American taxpayer is invested in America, period. And, every single American not wealthy, not powerful, and not influential, has been sold out. And, I'm NOT talking about personal investments. I'm talking about this once great nation. Would you like a list?
> 
> And, if it were an investment, as you call it, then our investment is worthless as we speak. Do you realize how many future generations of Americans have already been saddled with astronomical debt?
Click to expand...

The point of not taxing the poor is to not make it more difficult than it already is getting out of poverty


----------



## sealybobo

If you got rich despite paying taxes why do you want to change the rules that clearly hurt the rest of us that haven't yet made it. Like the affordable healthcare you got when you were working. Or better interest on savings, or high paying union jobs or pensions?


----------



## sealybobo

The Irish Ram said:


> Common core will prevent Americans from being smart enough to get on a plane and fix anything.  India will be trained to fix whatever needs fixing.
> 
> And corporations here do pay taxes.  More than their share, but we keep demanding  more and more, and demonize  those 1%ers.  We declared war on the very people that *used to* hire us.  How stupid.
> 
> Ohio is offering tax breaks for 10 years and businesses are hanging their hats in Ohio.  And hiring people to help them run their businesses.  Those people spend their paychecks at the local restaurants and flower shops, and markets.
> Businesses appreciate the relationship so they build a nice big park and indoor pool for the community.   It is a much better scenario for everyone involved.
> Socialism is a scourge that steals everything you own.  Ask the socialist.  Bernie wants 99%.
> You will never see a 99% return.


Not quite. A local government builds the community park paid for because those businesses and their employees are residents that pay taxes to that local government.

You would like to remove the government and have corporations controlling the economy. Who's gonna maintain and pay the taxes on that park the corporation put up? Who's gonna patrol it? Neighborhood watch? A community completely run the libertarians way.


----------



## BlackSand

sealybobo said:


> If you got rich despite paying taxes why do you want to change the rules that clearly hurt the rest of us that haven't yet made it. Like the affordable healthcare you got when you were working. Or better interest on savings, or high paying union jobs or pensions?



Well I guess it all depends on what you think about the government's policies in those areas.

Take for instance Healthcare ... There are plans available that provide for all the coverage that anyone would need.
These plans apply to employer provided healthcare that is far and beyond what any standard plan offers.
But since these plans often cost more and offer more than the basic bullshit the government is prepared to provide you with ... The ACA will levy an upfront *40% tax* to the plans.

You are not just screwing the rich people ... You are fucking their employees as well*.





* Now ... Tell me why I shouldn't take the money it would cost to cover my employees ... Build a family clinic on site ... Hire a doctor and staff on salary to treat them in most routine cases ... And let the ACA pay me for their treatment?

.


----------



## The Irish Ram

Nope, I'd like for us to stop strangeling busi


sealybobo said:


> The Irish Ram said:
> 
> 
> 
> Common core will prevent Americans from being smart enough to get on a plane and fix anything.  India will be trained to fix whatever needs fixing.
> 
> And corporations here do pay taxes.  More than their share, but we keep demanding  more and more, and demonize  those 1%ers.  We declared war on the very people that *used to* hire us.  How stupid.
> 
> Ohio is offering tax breaks for 10 years and businesses are hanging their hats in Ohio.  And hiring people to help them run their businesses.  Those people spend their paychecks at the local restaurants and flower shops, and markets.
> Businesses appreciate the relationship so they build a nice big park and indoor pool for the community.   It is a much better scenario for everyone involved.
> Socialism is a scourge that steals everything you own.  Ask the socialist.  Bernie wants 99%.
> You will never see a 99% return.
> 
> 
> 
> Not quite. A local government builds the community park paid for because those businesses and their employees are residents that pay taxes to that local government.
> 
> You would like to remove the government and have corporations controlling the economy. Who's gonna maintain and pay the taxes on that park the corporation put up? Who's gonna patrol it? Neighborhood watch? A community completely run the libertarians way.
Click to expand...


No, what I'd like is for everyone to pay their fair share, and stop gouging the corporations. 
And the park scenario isn't hypothetical.  It was a gift from the Corporation that was welcomed into the community.    Bobby Urich's mom and aunts became millionaires supplying the corporate/local workers with homemade lunches and their famous cabbage rolls.  Stores popped up.  All the kids swim in the pool at the park until winter, and then they get to play in the indoor pool.  Taxes from the corporation and the businesses and the workers pay for the upkeep.

Obama regulations are shutting the corporation down.  They are closing up and taking their jobs and tax money elsewhere.  And the once prospering town is now full of laid off workers and closed businesses.  They even closed the post office.  One café remains open.


----------



## The Irish Ram

Nope, I'd like for us to stop strangeling busi


sealybobo said:


> The Irish Ram said:
> 
> 
> 
> Common core will prevent Americans from being smart enough to get on a plane and fix anything.  India will be trained to fix whatever needs fixing.
> 
> And corporations here do pay taxes.  More than their share, but we keep demanding  more and more, and demonize  those 1%ers.  We declared war on the very people that *used to* hire us.  How stupid.
> 
> Ohio is offering tax breaks for 10 years and businesses are hanging their hats in Ohio.  And hiring people to help them run their businesses.  Those people spend their paychecks at the local restaurants and flower shops, and markets.
> Businesses appreciate the relationship so they build a nice big park and indoor pool for the community.   It is a much better scenario for everyone involved.
> Socialism is a scourge that steals everything you own.  Ask the socialist.  Bernie wants 99%.
> You will never see a 99% return.
> 
> 
> 
> Not quite. A local government builds the community park paid for because those businesses and their employees are residents that pay taxes to that local government.
> 
> You would like to remove the government and have corporations controlling the economy. Who's gonna maintain and pay the taxes on that park the corporation put up? Who's gonna patrol it? Neighborhood watch? A community completely run the libertarians way.
Click to expand...


No, what I'd like is for everyone to pay their fair share, and stop gouging the corporations. 
And the park scenario isn't hypothetical.  It was a gift from the Corporation that was welcomed into the community.    Bobby Urich's mom and aunts became millionaires supplying the corporate/local workers with homemade lunches and their famous cabbage rolls.  Stores popped up.  All the kids swim in the pool at the park until winter, and then they got to play in the indoor pool.  Taxes from the corporation and the businesses and the workers pay for the upkeep.

Obama regulations are shutting the corporation down.  They are closing up and taking their jobs and tax money elsewhere.  And the once prospering town is now full of laid off workers and closed businesses.  They even closed the post office.  One café remains open.


----------



## The Irish Ram

Nope, I'd like for us to stop strangeling busi


sealybobo said:


> The Irish Ram said:
> 
> 
> 
> Common core will prevent Americans from being smart enough to get on a plane and fix anything.  India will be trained to fix whatever needs fixing.
> 
> And corporations here do pay taxes.  More than their share, but we keep demanding  more and more, and demonize  those 1%ers.  We declared war on the very people that *used to* hire us.  How stupid.
> 
> Ohio is offering tax breaks for 10 years and businesses are hanging their hats in Ohio.  And hiring people to help them run their businesses.  Those people spend their paychecks at the local restaurants and flower shops, and markets.
> Businesses appreciate the relationship so they build a nice big park and indoor pool for the community.   It is a much better scenario for everyone involved.
> Socialism is a scourge that steals everything you own.  Ask the socialist.  Bernie wants 99%.
> You will never see a 99% return.
> 
> 
> 
> Not quite. A local government builds the community park paid for because those businesses and their employees are residents that pay taxes to that local government.
> 
> You would like to remove the government and have corporations controlling the economy. Who's gonna maintain and pay the taxes on that park the corporation put up? Who's gonna patrol it? Neighborhood watch? A community completely run the libertarians way.
Click to expand...


No, what I'd like is for everyone to pay their fair share, and stop gouging the corporations. 
And the park scenario isn't hypothetical.  It was a gift from the Corporation that was welcomed into the community.    Bobby Urich's mom and aunts became millionaires supplying the corporate/local workers with homemade lunches and their famous cabbage rolls.  Stores popped up.  All the kids swim in the pool at the park until winter, and then they got to play in the indoor pool.  Taxes from the corporation and the businesses and the workers paid for the upkeep.

Obama regulations are shutting the corporation down.  They are closing up and taking their jobs and tax money elsewhere.  And the once prospering little town is now full of laid off workers and closed businesses.  They even closed the post office.  One café remains open.


----------



## sealybobo

So anyway, can south america become great? So one day they are like Canada? My company does a lot of business in mexico. We aren't even a big 2 in my industry and we do business with at least 2000 Mexican companies. 

I suspect those corporations are in shit hole towns where people pay no taxes cause the got no money. Where's Walmart? Is there a thriving middle class in the Mexican towns ford moved their plants to?

I would estimate my industry services 50,000 factories in mexico. So why Mexicans coming here?


----------



## The Irish Ram

Nope, I'd like for us to stop strangeling busi


sealybobo said:


> The Irish Ram said:
> 
> 
> 
> Common core will prevent Americans from being smart enough to get on a plane and fix anything.  India will be trained to fix whatever needs fixing.
> 
> And corporations here do pay taxes.  More than their share, but we keep demanding  more and more, and demonize  those 1%ers.  We declared war on the very people that *used to* hire us.  How stupid.
> 
> Ohio is offering tax breaks for 10 years and businesses are hanging their hats in Ohio.  And hiring people to help them run their businesses.  Those people spend their paychecks at the local restaurants and flower shops, and markets.
> Businesses appreciate the relationship so they build a nice big park and indoor pool for the community.   It is a much better scenario for everyone involved.
> Socialism is a scourge that steals everything you own.  Ask the socialist.  Bernie wants 99%.
> You will never see a 99% return.
> 
> 
> 
> Not quite. A local government builds the community park paid for because those businesses and their employees are residents that pay taxes to that local government.
> 
> You would like to remove the government and have corporations controlling the economy. Who's gonna maintain and pay the taxes on that park the corporation put up? Who's gonna patrol it? Neighborhood watch? A community completely run the libertarians way.
Click to expand...


No, what I'd like is for everyone to pay their fair share, and stop gouging the corporations. 
And the park scenario isn't hypothetical.  It was a gift from the Corporation that was welcomed into the community.    Bobby Urich's mom and aunts became millionaires supplying the corporate/local workers with homemade lunches and their famous cabbage rolls.  Stores popped up.  All the kids swim in the pool at the park until winter, and then they got to play in the indoor pool.  Taxes from the corporation and the businesses and the workers paid for the upkeep.

Obama regulations are shutting the corporation down.  They are closing up and taking their jobs and tax money elsewhere.  And the once prospering little town is now full of laid off workers and closed businesses.  They even closed the post office.  One café remains open.


----------



## The Irish Ram

Nope, I'd like for us to stop strangeling busi


sealybobo said:


> The Irish Ram said:
> 
> 
> 
> Common core will prevent Americans from being smart enough to get on a plane and fix anything.  India will be trained to fix whatever needs fixing.
> 
> And corporations here do pay taxes.  More than their share, but we keep demanding  more and more, and demonize  those 1%ers.  We declared war on the very people that *used to* hire us.  How stupid.
> 
> Ohio is offering tax breaks for 10 years and businesses are hanging their hats in Ohio.  And hiring people to help them run their businesses.  Those people spend their paychecks at the local restaurants and flower shops, and markets.
> Businesses appreciate the relationship so they build a nice big park and indoor pool for the community.   It is a much better scenario for everyone involved.
> Socialism is a scourge that steals everything you own.  Ask the socialist.  Bernie wants 99%.
> You will never see a 99% return.
> 
> 
> 
> Not quite. A local government builds the community park paid for because those businesses and their employees are residents that pay taxes to that local government.
> 
> You would like to remove the government and have corporations controlling the economy. Who's gonna maintain and pay the taxes on that park the corporation put up? Who's gonna patrol it? Neighborhood watch? A community completely run the libertarians way.
Click to expand...


No, what I'd like is for everyone to pay their fair share, and stop gouging the corporations. 
And the park scenario isn't hypothetical.  It was a gift from the Corporation that was welcomed into the community.    Bobby Urich's mom and aunts became millionaires supplying the corporate/local workers with homemade lunches and their famous cabbage rolls.  Stores popped up.  All the kids swim in the pool at the park until winter, and then they got to play in the indoor pool.  Taxes from the corporation and the businesses and the workers paid for the upkeep.

Obama regulations are shutting the corporation down.  They are closing up and taking their jobs and tax money elsewhere.  And the once prospering little town is now full of laid off workers and closed businesses.  They even closed the post office.  One café remains open.


----------



## sealybobo

The Irish Ram said:


> Nope, I'd like for us to stop strangeling busi
> 
> 
> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Irish Ram said:
> 
> 
> 
> Common core will prevent Americans from being smart enough to get on a plane and fix anything.  India will be trained to fix whatever needs fixing.
> 
> And corporations here do pay taxes.  More than their share, but we keep demanding  more and more, and demonize  those 1%ers.  We declared war on the very people that *used to* hire us.  How stupid.
> 
> Ohio is offering tax breaks for 10 years and businesses are hanging their hats in Ohio.  And hiring people to help them run their businesses.  Those people spend their paychecks at the local restaurants and flower shops, and markets.
> Businesses appreciate the relationship so they build a nice big park and indoor pool for the community.   It is a much better scenario for everyone involved.
> Socialism is a scourge that steals everything you own.  Ask the socialist.  Bernie wants 99%.
> You will never see a 99% return.
> 
> 
> 
> Not quite. A local government builds the community park paid for because those businesses and their employees are residents that pay taxes to that local government.
> 
> You would like to remove the government and have corporations controlling the economy. Who's gonna maintain and pay the taxes on that park the corporation put up? Who's gonna patrol it? Neighborhood watch? A community completely run the libertarians way.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No, what I'd like is for everyone to pay their fair share, and stop gouging the corporations.
> And the park scenario isn't hypothetical.  It was a gift from the Corporation that was welcomed into the community.    Bobby Urich's mom and aunts became millionaires supplying the corporate/local workers with homemade lunches and their famous cabbage rolls.  Stores popped up.  All the kids swim in the pool at the park until winter, and then they got to play in the indoor pool.  Taxes from the corporation and the businesses and the workers paid for the upkeep.
> 
> Obama regulations are shutting the corporation down.  They are closing up and taking their jobs and tax money elsewhere.  And the once prospering little town is now full of laid off workers and closed businesses.  They even closed the post office.  One café remains open.
Click to expand...

Is your business model working for Mexicans? Mexico is business friendly how come your libertarian utopia isn't happening in mexico?


----------



## The Irish Ram

Nope, I'd like for us to stop strangeling busi


sealybobo said:


> The Irish Ram said:
> 
> 
> 
> Common core will prevent Americans from being smart enough to get on a plane and fix anything.  India will be trained to fix whatever needs fixing.
> 
> And corporations here do pay taxes.  More than their share, but we keep demanding  more and more, and demonize  those 1%ers.  We declared war on the very people that *used to* hire us.  How stupid.
> 
> Ohio is offering tax breaks for 10 years and businesses are hanging their hats in Ohio.  And hiring people to help them run their businesses.  Those people spend their paychecks at the local restaurants and flower shops, and markets.
> Businesses appreciate the relationship so they build a nice big park and indoor pool for the community.   It is a much better scenario for everyone involved.
> Socialism is a scourge that steals everything you own.  Ask the socialist.  Bernie wants 99%.
> You will never see a 99% return.
> 
> 
> 
> Not quite. A local government builds the community park paid for because those businesses and their employees are residents that pay taxes to that local government.
> 
> You would like to remove the government and have corporations controlling the economy. Who's gonna maintain and pay the taxes on that park the corporation put up? Who's gonna patrol it? Neighborhood watch? A community completely run the libertarians way.
Click to expand...


No, what I'd like is for everyone to pay their fair share, and stop gouging the corporations. 
And the park scenario isn't hypothetical.  It was a gift from the Corporation that was welcomed into the community.    Bobby Urich's mom and aunts became millionaires supplying the corporate/local workers with homemade lunches and their famous cabbage rolls.  Stores popped up.  All the kids swim in the pool at the park until winter, and then they got to play in the indoor pool.  Taxes from the corporation and the businesses and the workers paid for the upkeep.

Obama regulations are shutting the corporation down.  They are closing up and taking their jobs and tax money elsewhere.  And the once prospering little town is now full of laid off workers and closed businesses.  They even closed the post office.  One café remains open.


----------



## sealybobo

The Irish Ram said:


> Nope, I'd like for us to stop strangeling busi
> 
> 
> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Irish Ram said:
> 
> 
> 
> Common core will prevent Americans from being smart enough to get on a plane and fix anything.  India will be trained to fix whatever needs fixing.
> 
> And corporations here do pay taxes.  More than their share, but we keep demanding  more and more, and demonize  those 1%ers.  We declared war on the very people that *used to* hire us.  How stupid.
> 
> Ohio is offering tax breaks for 10 years and businesses are hanging their hats in Ohio.  And hiring people to help them run their businesses.  Those people spend their paychecks at the local restaurants and flower shops, and markets.
> Businesses appreciate the relationship so they build a nice big park and indoor pool for the community.   It is a much better scenario for everyone involved.
> Socialism is a scourge that steals everything you own.  Ask the socialist.  Bernie wants 99%.
> You will never see a 99% return.
> 
> 
> 
> Not quite. A local government builds the community park paid for because those businesses and their employees are residents that pay taxes to that local government.
> 
> You would like to remove the government and have corporations controlling the economy. Who's gonna maintain and pay the taxes on that park the corporation put up? Who's gonna patrol it? Neighborhood watch? A community completely run the libertarians way.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No, what I'd like is for everyone to pay their fair share, and stop gouging the corporations.
> And the park scenario isn't hypothetical.  It was a gift from the Corporation that was welcomed into the community.    Bobby Urich's mom and aunts became millionaires supplying the corporate/local workers with homemade lunches and their famous cabbage rolls.  Stores popped up.  All the kids swim in the pool at the park until winter, and then they got to play in the indoor pool.  Taxes from the corporation and the businesses and the workers paid for the upkeep.
> 
> Obama regulations are shutting the corporation down.  They are closing up and taking their jobs and tax money elsewhere.  And the once prospering little town is now full of laid off workers and closed businesses.  They even closed the post office.  One café remains open.
Click to expand...

Show me where those corporations end up. If it's Texas cool. If it's mexico why not Mississippi?


----------



## The Irish Ram

Nope, I'd like for us to stop strangeling busi


sealybobo said:


> The Irish Ram said:
> 
> 
> 
> Common core will prevent Americans from being smart enough to get on a plane and fix anything.  India will be trained to fix whatever needs fixing.
> 
> And corporations here do pay taxes.  More than their share, but we keep demanding  more and more, and demonize  those 1%ers.  We declared war on the very people that *used to* hire us.  How stupid.
> 
> Ohio is offering tax breaks for 10 years and businesses are hanging their hats in Ohio.  And hiring people to help them run their businesses.  Those people spend their paychecks at the local restaurants and flower shops, and markets.
> Businesses appreciate the relationship so they build a nice big park and indoor pool for the community.   It is a much better scenario for everyone involved.
> Socialism is a scourge that steals everything you own.  Ask the socialist.  Bernie wants 99%.
> You will never see a 99% return.
> 
> 
> 
> Not quite. A local government builds the community park paid for because those businesses and their employees are residents that pay taxes to that local government.
> 
> You would like to remove the government and have corporations controlling the economy. Who's gonna maintain and pay the taxes on that park the corporation put up? Who's gonna patrol it? Neighborhood watch? A community completely run the libertarians way.
Click to expand...


No, what I'd like is for everyone to pay their fair share, and stop gouging the corporations. 
And the park scenario isn't hypothetical.  It was a gift from the Corporation that was welcomed into the community.    Bobby Urich's mom and aunts became millionaires supplying the corporate/local workers with homemade lunches and their famous cabbage rolls.  Stores popped up.  All the kids swim in the pool at the park until winter, and then they got to play in the indoor pool.  Taxes from the corporation and the businesses and the workers paid for the upkeep.

Obama regulations are shutting the corporation down.  They are closing up and taking their jobs and tax money elsewhere.  And the once prospering little town is now full of laid off workers and closed businesses.  They even closed the post office.  One café remains open.


----------



## BlackSand

sealybobo said:


> So anyway, can south america become great? So one day they are like Canada? My company does a lot of business in mexico. We aren't even a big 2 in my industry and we do business with at least 2000 Mexican companies.
> 
> I suspect those corporations are in shit hole towns where people pay no taxes cause the got no money. Where's Walmart? Is there a thriving middle class in the Mexican towns ford moved their plants to?
> 
> I would estimate my industry services 50,000 factories in mexico. So why Mexicans coming here?



Of course it can ... South America is on its way there now ... It isn't going to happen overnight though.

Are you aware that Mexico is actually Central America and not South America?
I mean there are a lot of developing countries in Central America coming along nicely ... Not restricted to Mexico there either.

.


----------



## The Irish Ram

Nope, I'd like for us to stop strangeling busi


sealybobo said:


> The Irish Ram said:
> 
> 
> 
> Common core will prevent Americans from being smart enough to get on a plane and fix anything.  India will be trained to fix whatever needs fixing.
> 
> And corporations here do pay taxes.  More than their share, but we keep demanding  more and more, and demonize  those 1%ers.  We declared war on the very people that *used to* hire us.  How stupid.
> 
> Ohio is offering tax breaks for 10 years and businesses are hanging their hats in Ohio.  And hiring people to help them run their businesses.  Those people spend their paychecks at the local restaurants and flower shops, and markets.
> Businesses appreciate the relationship so they build a nice big park and indoor pool for the community.   It is a much better scenario for everyone involved.
> Socialism is a scourge that steals everything you own.  Ask the socialist.  Bernie wants 99%.
> You will never see a 99% return.
> 
> 
> 
> Not quite. A local government builds the community park paid for because those businesses and their employees are residents that pay taxes to that local government.
> 
> You would like to remove the government and have corporations controlling the economy. Who's gonna maintain and pay the taxes on that park the corporation put up? Who's gonna patrol it? Neighborhood watch? A community completely run the libertarians way.
Click to expand...


No, what I'd like is for everyone to pay their fair share, and stop gouging the corporations. 
And the park scenario isn't hypothetical.  It was a gift from the Corporation that was welcomed into the community.    Bobby Urich's mom and aunts became millionaires supplying the corporate/local workers with homemade lunches and their famous cabbage rolls.  Stores popped up.  All the kids swim in the pool at the park until winter, and then they got to play in the indoor pool.  Taxes from the corporation and the businesses and the workers paid for the upkeep.

Obama regulations are shutting the corporation down.  They are closing up and taking their jobs and tax money elsewhere.  And the once prospering little town is now full of laid off workers and closed businesses.  They even closed the post office.  One café remains open.


----------



## The Irish Ram

Nope, I'd like for us to stop strangeling busi


sealybobo said:


> The Irish Ram said:
> 
> 
> 
> Common core will prevent Americans from being smart enough to get on a plane and fix anything.  India will be trained to fix whatever needs fixing.
> 
> And corporations here do pay taxes.  More than their share, but we keep demanding  more and more, and demonize  those 1%ers.  We declared war on the very people that *used to* hire us.  How stupid.
> 
> Ohio is offering tax breaks for 10 years and businesses are hanging their hats in Ohio.  And hiring people to help them run their businesses.  Those people spend their paychecks at the local restaurants and flower shops, and markets.
> Businesses appreciate the relationship so they build a nice big park and indoor pool for the community.   It is a much better scenario for everyone involved.
> Socialism is a scourge that steals everything you own.  Ask the socialist.  Bernie wants 99%.
> You will never see a 99% return.
> 
> 
> 
> Not quite. A local government builds the community park paid for because those businesses and their employees are residents that pay taxes to that local government.
> 
> You would like to remove the government and have corporations controlling the economy. Who's gonna maintain and pay the taxes on that park the corporation put up? Who's gonna patrol it? Neighborhood watch? A community completely run the libertarians way.
Click to expand...


No, what I'd like is for everyone to pay their fair share, and stop gouging the corporations. 
And the park scenario isn't hypothetical.  It was a gift from the Corporation that was welcomed into the community.    Bobby Urich's mom and aunts became millionaires supplying the corporate/local workers with homemade lunches and their famous cabbage rolls.  Stores popped up.  All the kids swim in the pool at the park until winter, and then they got to play in the indoor pool.  Taxes from the corporation and the businesses and the workers paid for the upkeep.

Obama regulations are shutting the corporation down.  They are closing up and taking their jobs and tax money elsewhere.  And the once prospering little town is now full of laid off workers and closed businesses.  They even closed the post office.  One café remains open.


----------



## sealybobo

BlackSand said:


> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> So anyway, can south america become great? So one day they are like Canada? My company does a lot of business in mexico. We aren't even a big 2 in my industry and we do business with at least 2000 Mexican companies.
> 
> I suspect those corporations are in shit hole towns where people pay no taxes cause the got no money. Where's Walmart? Is there a thriving middle class in the Mexican towns ford moved their plants to?
> 
> I would estimate my industry services 50,000 factories in mexico. So why Mexicans coming here?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Of course it can ... South America is on its way there now ... It isn't going to happen overnight though.
> 
> Are you aware that Mexico is actually Central America and not South America?
> I mean there are a lot of developing countries in Central America coming along nicely ... Not restricted to Mexico there either.
> 
> .
Click to expand...

I hope we go back to such a booming economy where companies have to share the profits just to keep good help because a good employee who works hard could go find a better job. The corporations like jobs being scarce and the market flooded with workers so they turn a blind eye while illegal employers hire illegals. Not hard to tell who's illegal.

So I hope things get better in mexico. Maybe I'll become a Mexican. How's the weather in central america?

I forgot mexico isn't in south america but I know Israel isn't in Africa.


----------



## sealybobo

The Irish Ram said:


> Nope, I'd like for us to stop strangeling busi
> 
> 
> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Irish Ram said:
> 
> 
> 
> Common core will prevent Americans from being smart enough to get on a plane and fix anything.  India will be trained to fix whatever needs fixing.
> 
> And corporations here do pay taxes.  More than their share, but we keep demanding  more and more, and demonize  those 1%ers.  We declared war on the very people that *used to* hire us.  How stupid.
> 
> Ohio is offering tax breaks for 10 years and businesses are hanging their hats in Ohio.  And hiring people to help them run their businesses.  Those people spend their paychecks at the local restaurants and flower shops, and markets.
> Businesses appreciate the relationship so they build a nice big park and indoor pool for the community.   It is a much better scenario for everyone involved.
> Socialism is a scourge that steals everything you own.  Ask the socialist.  Bernie wants 99%.
> You will never see a 99% return.
> 
> 
> 
> Not quite. A local government builds the community park paid for because those businesses and their employees are residents that pay taxes to that local government.
> 
> You would like to remove the government and have corporations controlling the economy. Who's gonna maintain and pay the taxes on that park the corporation put up? Who's gonna patrol it? Neighborhood watch? A community completely run the libertarians way.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No, what I'd like is for everyone to pay their fair share, and stop gouging the corporations.
> And the park scenario isn't hypothetical.  It was a gift from the Corporation that was welcomed into the community.    Bobby Urich's mom and aunts became millionaires supplying the corporate/local workers with homemade lunches and their famous cabbage rolls.  Stores popped up.  All the kids swim in the pool at the park until winter, and then they got to play in the indoor pool.  Taxes from the corporation and the businesses and the workers paid for the upkeep.
> 
> Obama regulations are shutting the corporation down.  They are closing up and taking their jobs and tax money elsewhere.  And the once prospering little town is now full of laid off workers and closed businesses.  They even closed the post office.  One café remains open.
Click to expand...

Why don't those corporations go to red states? And why doesn't Obama regulate tariff and tax them if they leave?

You anti regulation nuts.


----------



## The Irish Ram

Sorry for all the duplicate posts.  I have no problem anywhere else but trying to post on this site is a friggin nightmare.  I can't even delete them.    I think I'll skip the aggravation today, and go play with my horse instead.  Have a good one everybody.  I hope God blesses your day.


----------



## BlackSand

sealybobo said:


> I hope we go back to such a booming economy where companies have to share the profits just to keep good help because a good employee who works hard could go find a better job. The corporations like jobs being scarce and the market flooded with workers so they turn a blind eye while illegal employers hire illegals. Not hard to tell who's illegal.
> 
> So I hope things get better in mexico. Maybe I'll become a Mexican. How's the weather in central america?
> 
> I forgot mexico isn't in south america but I know Israel isn't in Africa.



Ah Man ... That's okay ... Although I can say they are rather picky about it down there.
Plus ... I am not near as impressed with Mexico as I have been with advances in Belize and Honduras.

Both still have crime problems ... But the governments are being far more aggressive with drug traffickers.
Seized drug related properties (currently owned by the governments) are also a windfall for corporations looking for cheap land and an opportunity to work with the establishment and communities.

Belize is relatively young (1980) and has made major strides towards implementing responsible policies (minus the standard third world routine bullshit).
Like Honduras ... They are channeling efforts to capitalize on resources in order to attract more distinguished clients ... With better internal policies.
I mean if the corporation already has responsible internal policies ... Then governmental oversight is a simple formality.
They both also have serious environmental restrictions that protect some of their more important resources ... Already in place.

The weather is nice ... The sea is never too far away ... And for the most part the people are friendly.

.


----------



## GHook93

sealybobo said:


> Can Mexico ever become like Australia or Canada?.


They should aim higher then Canada or Australia! Aka the U.S. dipshit.


----------



## sealybobo

GHook93 said:


> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> Can Mexico ever become like Australia or Canada?.
> 
> 
> 
> They should aim higher then Canada or Australia! Aka the U.S. dipshit.
Click to expand...

My bro and his family are coming back from 4 years in Europe. Switzerland and they've visited almost every country, too many to name. America is no longer the greatest country in the world. In many ways we are one of the greatest and in a couple ways we are but no longer is that statement necessarily true. That's your ignorant national pride.

A great example. 20 years ago if someone in Vancouver was looking through binoculars at Seattle anyone in Vancouver would choose to live in Seattle vs Vancouver. That is not true today people in Vancouver have it much better than people in Seattle today in many ways.


----------



## Toro

sealybobo said:


> Can Mexico ever become like Australia or Canada?
> 
> Should all the countries unite like Europe did with the Euro?
> 
> I know corruption is bad. Is this the problem? The crime cartels?
> 
> I'm in manufacturing and know there are thousand of manufacturing plants south of the border. Having a strong manufacturing sector is good. Why isn't that prosperity trickling down? Or is it? I hope one day Mexicans don't need to cross the border just like Canadians.



No.


----------



## frigidweirdo

sealybobo said:


> Can Mexico ever become like Australia or Canada?
> 
> Should all the countries unite like Europe did with the Euro?
> 
> I know corruption is bad. Is this the problem? The crime cartels?
> 
> I'm in manufacturing and know there are thousand of manufacturing plants south of the border. Having a strong manufacturing sector is good. Why isn't that prosperity trickling down? Or is it? I hope one day Mexicans don't need to cross the border just like Canadians.



Mexico's in South America? Since when?


----------



## Toro

sealybobo said:


> GHook93 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> Can Mexico ever become like Australia or Canada?.
> 
> 
> 
> They should aim higher then Canada or Australia! Aka the U.S. dipshit.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> My bro and his family are coming back from 4 years in Europe. Switzerland and they've visited almost every country, too many to name. America is no longer the greatest country in the world. In many ways we are one of the greatest and in a couple ways we are but no longer is that statement necessarily true. That's your ignorant national pride.
> 
> A great example. 20 years ago if someone in Vancouver was looking through binoculars at Seattle anyone in Vancouver would choose to live in Seattle vs Vancouver. That is not true today people in Vancouver have it much better than people in Seattle today in many ways.
Click to expand...


Why do you think that?

Vancouver is insanely expensive, much more so than Seattle.

I love Vancouver, have lived there, and am going there in a few days, but it's standard of living isn't any better than Seattle's.


----------



## frigidweirdo

sealybobo said:


> GHook93 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> Can Mexico ever become like Australia or Canada?.
> 
> 
> 
> They should aim higher then Canada or Australia! Aka the U.S. dipshit.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> My bro and his family are coming back from 4 years in Europe. Switzerland and they've visited almost every country, too many to name. America is no longer the greatest country in the world. In many ways we are one of the greatest and in a couple ways we are but no longer is that statement necessarily true. That's your ignorant national pride.
> 
> A great example. 20 years ago if someone in Vancouver was looking through binoculars at Seattle anyone in Vancouver would choose to live in Seattle vs Vancouver. That is not true today people in Vancouver have it much better than people in Seattle today in many ways.
Click to expand...


Many European countries are better to live in than the US. The US is all about money. If you're obsessed with money then the US is the place. If you actually want a good life and a government that looks out for you, then Europe it is.


----------



## sealybobo

frigidweirdo said:


> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> Can Mexico ever become like Australia or Canada?
> 
> Should all the countries unite like Europe did with the Euro?
> 
> I know corruption is bad. Is this the problem? The crime cartels?
> 
> I'm in manufacturing and know there are thousand of manufacturing plants south of the border. Having a strong manufacturing sector is good. Why isn't that prosperity trickling down? Or is it? I hope one day Mexicans don't need to cross the border just like Canadians.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mexico's in South America? Since when?
Click to expand...

You know what I mean. Lol


----------



## frigidweirdo

Toro said:


> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> GHook93 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> Can Mexico ever become like Australia or Canada?.
> 
> 
> 
> They should aim higher then Canada or Australia! Aka the U.S. dipshit.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> My bro and his family are coming back from 4 years in Europe. Switzerland and they've visited almost every country, too many to name. America is no longer the greatest country in the world. In many ways we are one of the greatest and in a couple ways we are but no longer is that statement necessarily true. That's your ignorant national pride.
> 
> A great example. 20 years ago if someone in Vancouver was looking through binoculars at Seattle anyone in Vancouver would choose to live in Seattle vs Vancouver. That is not true today people in Vancouver have it much better than people in Seattle today in many ways.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Why do you think that?
> 
> Vancouver is insanely expensive, much more so than Seattle.
> 
> I love Vancouver, have lived there, and am going there in a few days, but it's standard of living isn't any better than Seattle's.
Click to expand...


I'd prefer Vancouver. Again, it's not all about money.


----------



## Toro

frigidweirdo said:


> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> GHook93 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> Can Mexico ever become like Australia or Canada?.
> 
> 
> 
> They should aim higher then Canada or Australia! Aka the U.S. dipshit.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> My bro and his family are coming back from 4 years in Europe. Switzerland and they've visited almost every country, too many to name. America is no longer the greatest country in the world. In many ways we are one of the greatest and in a couple ways we are but no longer is that statement necessarily true. That's your ignorant national pride.
> 
> A great example. 20 years ago if someone in Vancouver was looking through binoculars at Seattle anyone in Vancouver would choose to live in Seattle vs Vancouver. That is not true today people in Vancouver have it much better than people in Seattle today in many ways.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Many European countries are better to live in than the US. The US is all about money. If you're obsessed with money then the US is the place. If you actually want a good life and a government that looks out for you, then Europe it is.
Click to expand...


I lived in London for awhile.

London is one of my favourite cities in the world - second only to Vancouver! - but after living in Europe, I came to the conclusion that I'd rather live in America and visit Europe rather than living in Europe and visiting America.  

Europe is more interesting, but it's easier living here.


----------



## frigidweirdo

sealybobo said:


> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> Can Mexico ever become like Australia or Canada?
> 
> Should all the countries unite like Europe did with the Euro?
> 
> I know corruption is bad. Is this the problem? The crime cartels?
> 
> I'm in manufacturing and know there are thousand of manufacturing plants south of the border. Having a strong manufacturing sector is good. Why isn't that prosperity trickling down? Or is it? I hope one day Mexicans don't need to cross the border just like Canadians.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mexico's in South America? Since when?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You know what I mean. Lol
Click to expand...


You mean Latin America. Not South America. 

I'd point out that if you're talking about something and want what you say to be taken seriously, then at least getting the right part of the world right is a good start.

It's like saying Africa's a country, or that South Africa's in the Middle East or something like that.


----------



## sealybobo

frigidweirdo said:


> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> GHook93 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> Can Mexico ever become like Australia or Canada?.
> 
> 
> 
> They should aim higher then Canada or Australia! Aka the U.S. dipshit.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> My bro and his family are coming back from 4 years in Europe. Switzerland and they've visited almost every country, too many to name. America is no longer the greatest country in the world. In many ways we are one of the greatest and in a couple ways we are but no longer is that statement necessarily true. That's your ignorant national pride.
> 
> A great example. 20 years ago if someone in Vancouver was looking through binoculars at Seattle anyone in Vancouver would choose to live in Seattle vs Vancouver. That is not true today people in Vancouver have it much better than people in Seattle today in many ways.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Many European countries are better to live in than the US. The US is all about money. If you're obsessed with money then the US is the place. If you actually want a good life and a government that looks out for you, then Europe it is.
Click to expand...

My brothers a VP. In Europe he's home by 6. Here he will work 12 hours and stress even take phone calls on weekends.


----------



## Toro

frigidweirdo said:


> Toro said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> GHook93 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> Can Mexico ever become like Australia or Canada?.
> 
> 
> 
> They should aim higher then Canada or Australia! Aka the U.S. dipshit.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> My bro and his family are coming back from 4 years in Europe. Switzerland and they've visited almost every country, too many to name. America is no longer the greatest country in the world. In many ways we are one of the greatest and in a couple ways we are but no longer is that statement necessarily true. That's your ignorant national pride.
> 
> A great example. 20 years ago if someone in Vancouver was looking through binoculars at Seattle anyone in Vancouver would choose to live in Seattle vs Vancouver. That is not true today people in Vancouver have it much better than people in Seattle today in many ways.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Why do you think that?
> 
> Vancouver is insanely expensive, much more so than Seattle.
> 
> I love Vancouver, have lived there, and am going there in a few days, but it's standard of living isn't any better than Seattle's.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I'd prefer Vancouver. Again, it's not all about money.
Click to expand...


All things being equal, I'd rather live in Vancouver.  I lived in the West End for two years and loved it.

But all things aren't equal.  

I don't know why anyone would broadly say that they'd rather live in Vancouver rather than Seattle compared to 20 years ago.  It has become more difficult to live in Vancouver relative to Seattle over the past two decades.


----------



## frigidweirdo

Toro said:


> I lived in London for awhile.
> 
> London is one of my favourite cities in the world - second only to Vancouver! - but after living in Europe, I came to the conclusion that I'd rather live in America and visit Europe rather than living in Europe and visiting America.
> 
> Europe is more interesting, but it's easier living here.



Well, that's London. I wouldn't live in London. There are much better places in Europe than a big city like London. (Just see how many times I can say London in a short post). 

Spain, for example, has a better way of life, similar to countries like Italy, I would say Greece, but they're a disaster. The Germanic countries are the opposite, but often good for living in too. While there are loads of rules, as long as you follow them then you can have a great life too.


----------



## sealybobo

Toro said:


> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> GHook93 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> Can Mexico ever become like Australia or Canada?.
> 
> 
> 
> They should aim higher then Canada or Australia! Aka the U.S. dipshit.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> My bro and his family are coming back from 4 years in Europe. Switzerland and they've visited almost every country, too many to name. America is no longer the greatest country in the world. In many ways we are one of the greatest and in a couple ways we are but no longer is that statement necessarily true. That's your ignorant national pride.
> 
> A great example. 20 years ago if someone in Vancouver was looking through binoculars at Seattle anyone in Vancouver would choose to live in Seattle vs Vancouver. That is not true today people in Vancouver have it much better than people in Seattle today in many ways.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Why do you think that?
> 
> Vancouver is insanely expensive, much more so than Seattle.
> 
> I love Vancouver, have lived there, and am going there in a few days, but it's standard of living isn't any better than Seattle's.
Click to expand...

There was a year after the crash of 2007 they had it better than us. I forgot we have recovered and that's probably not true anymore.

But one thing they have is free healthcare. A lot easier getting out of poverty when you aren't forced to buy healthcare even when you are out of work. Safety nets.


----------



## sealybobo

frigidweirdo said:


> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> Can Mexico ever become like Australia or Canada?
> 
> Should all the countries unite like Europe did with the Euro?
> 
> I know corruption is bad. Is this the problem? The crime cartels?
> 
> I'm in manufacturing and know there are thousand of manufacturing plants south of the border. Having a strong manufacturing sector is good. Why isn't that prosperity trickling down? Or is it? I hope one day Mexicans don't need to cross the border just like Canadians.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mexico's in South America? Since when?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You know what I mean. Lol
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You mean Latin America. Not South America.
> 
> I'd point out that if you're talking about something and want what you say to be taken seriously, then at least getting the right part of the world right is a good start.
> 
> It's like saying Africa's a country, or that South Africa's in the Middle East or something like that.
Click to expand...

Do you know how many people think Israel is in Africa not Asia?


----------



## frigidweirdo

Toro said:


> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Toro said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> GHook93 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> Can Mexico ever become like Australia or Canada?.
> 
> 
> 
> They should aim higher then Canada or Australia! Aka the U.S. dipshit.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> My bro and his family are coming back from 4 years in Europe. Switzerland and they've visited almost every country, too many to name. America is no longer the greatest country in the world. In many ways we are one of the greatest and in a couple ways we are but no longer is that statement necessarily true. That's your ignorant national pride.
> 
> A great example. 20 years ago if someone in Vancouver was looking through binoculars at Seattle anyone in Vancouver would choose to live in Seattle vs Vancouver. That is not true today people in Vancouver have it much better than people in Seattle today in many ways.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Why do you think that?
> 
> Vancouver is insanely expensive, much more so than Seattle.
> 
> I love Vancouver, have lived there, and am going there in a few days, but it's standard of living isn't any better than Seattle's.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I'd prefer Vancouver. Again, it's not all about money.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> All things being equal, I'd rather live in Vancouver.  I lived in the West End for two years and loved it.
> 
> But all things aren't equal.
> 
> I don't know why anyone would broadly say that they'd rather live in Vancouver rather than Seattle compared to 20 years ago.  It has become more difficult to live in Vancouver relative to Seattle over the past two decades.
Click to expand...



You say it's been more difficult. In what way? Financially or other stuff?


----------



## frigidweirdo

sealybobo said:


> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> Can Mexico ever become like Australia or Canada?
> 
> Should all the countries unite like Europe did with the Euro?
> 
> I know corruption is bad. Is this the problem? The crime cartels?
> 
> I'm in manufacturing and know there are thousand of manufacturing plants south of the border. Having a strong manufacturing sector is good. Why isn't that prosperity trickling down? Or is it? I hope one day Mexicans don't need to cross the border just like Canadians.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mexico's in South America? Since when?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You know what I mean. Lol
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You mean Latin America. Not South America.
> 
> I'd point out that if you're talking about something and want what you say to be taken seriously, then at least getting the right part of the world right is a good start.
> 
> It's like saying Africa's a country, or that South Africa's in the Middle East or something like that.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Do you know how many people think Israel is in Africa not Asia?
Click to expand...


No. But I know there are a lot of people who struggle with basic geography outside of their state.

Examples. An 18 year old who was soon to go off to a decent university who thought Russia was the Ukraine. 
A person who didn't know Britain was an island. 

Then again I'm well traveled.


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## sealybobo

frigidweirdo said:


> Toro said:
> 
> 
> 
> I lived in London for awhile.
> 
> London is one of my favourite cities in the world - second only to Vancouver! - but after living in Europe, I came to the conclusion that I'd rather live in America and visit Europe rather than living in Europe and visiting America.
> 
> Europe is more interesting, but it's easier living here.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well, that's London. I wouldn't live in London. There are much better places in Europe than a big city like London. (Just see how many times I can say London in a short post).
> 
> Spain, for example, has a better way of life, similar to countries like Italy, I would say Greece, but they're a disaster. The Germanic countries are the opposite, but often good for living in too. While there are loads of rules, as long as you follow them then you can have a great life too.
Click to expand...

My bros in Switzerland and yes all the countries surrounding it are all beautiful too.

What's the best 5 surrounding American states are all great? Around me would bbe PA, OH, IL, WI. No European would be impressed. Lol

I'd say colorado


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## frigidweirdo

sealybobo said:


> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Toro said:
> 
> 
> 
> I lived in London for awhile.
> 
> London is one of my favourite cities in the world - second only to Vancouver! - but after living in Europe, I came to the conclusion that I'd rather live in America and visit Europe rather than living in Europe and visiting America.
> 
> Europe is more interesting, but it's easier living here.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well, that's London. I wouldn't live in London. There are much better places in Europe than a big city like London. (Just see how many times I can say London in a short post).
> 
> Spain, for example, has a better way of life, similar to countries like Italy, I would say Greece, but they're a disaster. The Germanic countries are the opposite, but often good for living in too. While there are loads of rules, as long as you follow them then you can have a great life too.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> My bros in Switzerland and yes all the countries surrounding it are all beautiful too.
> 
> What's the best 5 surrounding American states are all great? Around me would bbe PA, OH, IL, WI. No European would be impressed. Lol
> 
> I'd say colorado
Click to expand...


I lived in Colorado up in the mountains. It was nice, relaxing place to be.


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## eagle1462010

Critical Alert Jeff Sessions Warns America Against Potentially Disastrous Obama Trade Deal

The second major point in the Sessions document details how passing TPA through Congress would result in “increased trade deficits.”

“Barclays estimates that during the first quarter of this year, the overall U.S. trade deficit will reduce economic growth by .2 percent,” Sessions writes. “History suggests that trade deals set into motion under the 6-year life of TPA could exacerbate our trade imbalance, acting as an impediment to both GDP and wage growth. Labor economist Clyde Prestowitz attributes 60 percent of the U.S.’ 5.7 million manufacturing jobs lost over the last decade to import-driven trade imbalances.”

Sessions also cites former AT&T CEO Leo Hindery, Jr., who wrote in a recent column for Reuters that since the North American Free Trade Agreement (NAFTA) and South Korea free trade agreements were passed and implemented, “U.S. trade deficits, which drag down economic growth, have soared more than 430 percent with our free-trade partners.”

“In the same period, they’ve declined 11 percent with countries that are not free-trade partners,” Hindery wrote, in the part where Sessions cites him, adding: “Obama’s 2011 trade deal with South Korea, which serves as the template for the new Trans-Pacific Partnership, has resulted in a 50 percent jump in the U.S. trade deficit with South Korea in its first two years. This equates to 50,000 U.S. jobs lost. “

As a result of all that, Sessions questions whether such a trade agreement would actually help—or whether it would hurt—the U.S. economy overall.


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## sealybobo

Toro said:


> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Toro said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> GHook93 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> Can Mexico ever become like Australia or Canada?.
> 
> 
> 
> They should aim higher then Canada or Australia! Aka the U.S. dipshit.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> My bro and his family are coming back from 4 years in Europe. Switzerland and they've visited almost every country, too many to name. America is no longer the greatest country in the world. In many ways we are one of the greatest and in a couple ways we are but no longer is that statement necessarily true. That's your ignorant national pride.
> 
> A great example. 20 years ago if someone in Vancouver was looking through binoculars at Seattle anyone in Vancouver would choose to live in Seattle vs Vancouver. That is not true today people in Vancouver have it much better than people in Seattle today in many ways.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Why do you think that?
> 
> Vancouver is insanely expensive, much more so than Seattle.
> 
> I love Vancouver, have lived there, and am going there in a few days, but it's standard of living isn't any better than Seattle's.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I'd prefer Vancouver. Again, it's not all about money.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> All things being equal, I'd rather live in Vancouver.  I lived in the West End for two years and loved it.
> 
> But all things aren't equal.
> 
> I don't know why anyone would broadly say that they'd rather live in Vancouver rather than Seattle compared to 20 years ago.  It has become more difficult to live in Vancouver relative to Seattle over the past two decades.
Click to expand...

I read it in an article explaining how in 2008 2009 maybe people were better off in Vancouver. With all the social programs and safety nets being eliminated in America, the high unemployment we were experiencing.

If you can't imagine then you forgot about the great recession we went through.


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## eagle1462010

Free Trade agreements help poor countries and hurt modern countries.  In their mission statements they say that their goals are to end world poverty.  The only way for that to happen is for the poor countries wage standards to eventually go up, while the modern countries wage standards go down.  Meeting in equallibrium somewhere down the road.....................

Meaning we get the shaft, while Mexico gets the boom.
There is no doubt that are manufacturing jobs in this country have been severely hurt by these deals.
It is lowering our jobs, and hurting the American worker so big business can haul ass and take advantage of cheap labor and sell the products back here..............And they continue to do so as more and more jobs migrate to the 3rd World.  

TPP is NAFTA  on Steroids....................and guarantees we get fucked again.


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## sealybobo

eagle1462010 said:


> Free Trade agreements help poor countries and hurt modern countries.  In their mission statements they say that their goals are to end world poverty.  The only way for that to happen is for the poor countries wage standards to eventually go up, while the modern countries wage standards go down.  Meeting in equallibrium somewhere down the road.....................
> 
> Meaning we get the shaft, while Mexico gets the boom.
> There is no doubt that are manufacturing jobs in this country have been severely hurt by these deals.
> It is lowering our jobs, and hurting the American worker so big business can haul ass and take advantage of cheap labor and sell the products back here..............And they continue to do so as more and more jobs migrate to the 3rd World.
> 
> TPP is NAFTA  on Steroids....................and guarantees we get fucked again.


Maybe like my grandparents picked up and moved here from greece one day you'll be sneaking across the border into mexico.


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## eagle1462010

sealybobo said:


> eagle1462010 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Free Trade agreements help poor countries and hurt modern countries.  In their mission statements they say that their goals are to end world poverty.  The only way for that to happen is for the poor countries wage standards to eventually go up, while the modern countries wage standards go down.  Meeting in equallibrium somewhere down the road.....................
> 
> Meaning we get the shaft, while Mexico gets the boom.
> There is no doubt that are manufacturing jobs in this country have been severely hurt by these deals.
> It is lowering our jobs, and hurting the American worker so big business can haul ass and take advantage of cheap labor and sell the products back here..............And they continue to do so as more and more jobs migrate to the 3rd World.
> 
> TPP is NAFTA  on Steroids....................and guarantees we get fucked again.
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe like my grandparents picked up and moved here from greece one day you'll be sneaking across the border into mexico.
Click to expand...

Doubtful.  We can buy tacos here already.

Your point............................Are you for or against Free Trade and the loss of jobs that go with it....................But hey man, we get Chinese crap stuff for cheap now.  ECONOMICS 101........it's basic............how are you going to spend all that extra money on cheaper goods man................So says the ones pushing for it............as they ignore the lost jobs in this country.  Are you one of those people...........


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## frigidweirdo

eagle1462010 said:


> Free Trade agreements help poor countries and hurt modern countries.  In their mission statements they say that their goals are to end world poverty.  The only way for that to happen is for the poor countries wage standards to eventually go up, while the modern countries wage standards go down.  Meeting in equallibrium somewhere down the road.....................
> 
> Meaning we get the shaft, while Mexico gets the boom.
> There is no doubt that are manufacturing jobs in this country have been severely hurt by these deals.
> It is lowering our jobs, and hurting the American worker so big business can haul ass and take advantage of cheap labor and sell the products back here..............And they continue to do so as more and more jobs migrate to the 3rd World.
> 
> TPP is NAFTA  on Steroids....................and guarantees we get fucked again.



Hey, if you go bomb those countries and put them back a few decades, it means they'll never get decent wages, it'll also mean you get cheap stuff from those countries meaning your money goes further. 
Hasn't that been US policy for a long time now?


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## eagle1462010

frigidweirdo said:


> eagle1462010 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Free Trade agreements help poor countries and hurt modern countries.  In their mission statements they say that their goals are to end world poverty.  The only way for that to happen is for the poor countries wage standards to eventually go up, while the modern countries wage standards go down.  Meeting in equallibrium somewhere down the road.....................
> 
> Meaning we get the shaft, while Mexico gets the boom.
> There is no doubt that are manufacturing jobs in this country have been severely hurt by these deals.
> It is lowering our jobs, and hurting the American worker so big business can haul ass and take advantage of cheap labor and sell the products back here..............And they continue to do so as more and more jobs migrate to the 3rd World.
> 
> TPP is NAFTA  on Steroids....................and guarantees we get fucked again.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hey, if you go bomb those countries and put them back a few decades, it means they'll never get decent wages, it'll also mean you get cheap stuff from those countries meaning your money goes further.
> Hasn't that been US policy for a long time now?
Click to expand...

If you mean outsourcing of jobs..........well yeah.......take a look at the Trade deficits reported by Sessions in the article posted.  
Your money goes further................tell that to the displaced workers from the cuts here to provide jobs there...........

Trump brought up a 1 Billion dollar deal with Ford.  They are building a 1 Billion dollar plant in Mexico............How is that good for the American worker.............................It's not, nor is the outsourcing of jobs.

Looked at the labor participation rate................but it's ok the manipulated unemployment rate just doesn't count the ones dropped out of the labor force................

We are getting our asses handed to us by the likes of China and Mexico unless you like cheap Chinese products........That needs to change if we want to grow jobs here instead of abroad.  But that will not happen, they will displace more with the TPP.


----------



## sealybobo

eagle1462010 said:


> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> eagle1462010 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Free Trade agreements help poor countries and hurt modern countries.  In their mission statements they say that their goals are to end world poverty.  The only way for that to happen is for the poor countries wage standards to eventually go up, while the modern countries wage standards go down.  Meeting in equallibrium somewhere down the road.....................
> 
> Meaning we get the shaft, while Mexico gets the boom.
> There is no doubt that are manufacturing jobs in this country have been severely hurt by these deals.
> It is lowering our jobs, and hurting the American worker so big business can haul ass and take advantage of cheap labor and sell the products back here..............And they continue to do so as more and more jobs migrate to the 3rd World.
> 
> TPP is NAFTA  on Steroids....................and guarantees we get fucked again.
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe like my grandparents picked up and moved here from greece one day you'll be sneaking across the border into mexico.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Doubtful.  We can buy tacos here already.
> 
> Your point............................Are you for or against Free Trade and the loss of jobs that go with it....................But hey man, we get Chinese crap stuff for cheap now.  ECONOMICS 101........it's basic............how are you going to spend all that extra money on cheaper goods man................So says the ones pushing for it............as they ignore the lost jobs in this country.  Are you one of those people...........
Click to expand...

I'm not an isolationist but free trade is inevitable. In the future there won't be poor nations I hope. They will unionize.

You make a good point. We already buy our shit from china. Now you are complaining? Who'd you vote for in 1988? Cause the GOP and bush 1 made NAFTA. Clinton just signed it.

Every country protected their vital industries except America why? Because American workers make too much.


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## eagle1462010

The Universal Displaced Worker Program - U.S. Department of Labor

*Who are Displaced Workers?*

A displaced worker is someone who loses their job because their employer closed a plant or division; moved or abolished their position; or simply had insufficient work for them; as well as some service members who leave the military. *Over 7 million American workers have been displaced from long-term jobs since 2008. *Many will experience hardships that may extend beyond the time they are unemployed.

*The Existing Landscape*

The current workforce development system treats displaced workers differently depending on the circumstances behind how they lost their job. Those who lost their jobs due to the impact of foreign trade are eligible for extensive income support, training, and reemployment services under the Trade Adjustment Assistance program (TAA). Meanwhile, millions of workers who were displaced for other reasons receive far _less_ generous support and training through the Workforce Investment Act Dislocated Worker program (WIA DW) on a first-come, first-serve basis. These dual tracks lead to confusion and inequality.


----------



## eagle1462010

sealybobo said:


> eagle1462010 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> eagle1462010 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Free Trade agreements help poor countries and hurt modern countries.  In their mission statements they say that their goals are to end world poverty.  The only way for that to happen is for the poor countries wage standards to eventually go up, while the modern countries wage standards go down.  Meeting in equallibrium somewhere down the road.....................
> 
> Meaning we get the shaft, while Mexico gets the boom.
> There is no doubt that are manufacturing jobs in this country have been severely hurt by these deals.
> It is lowering our jobs, and hurting the American worker so big business can haul ass and take advantage of cheap labor and sell the products back here..............And they continue to do so as more and more jobs migrate to the 3rd World.
> 
> TPP is NAFTA  on Steroids....................and guarantees we get fucked again.
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe like my grandparents picked up and moved here from greece one day you'll be sneaking across the border into mexico.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Doubtful.  We can buy tacos here already.
> 
> Your point............................Are you for or against Free Trade and the loss of jobs that go with it....................But hey man, we get Chinese crap stuff for cheap now.  ECONOMICS 101........it's basic............how are you going to spend all that extra money on cheaper goods man................So says the ones pushing for it............as they ignore the lost jobs in this country.  Are you one of those people...........
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I'm not an isolationist but free trade is inevitable. In the future there won't be poor nations I hope. They will unionize.
> 
> You make a good point. We already buy our shit from china. Now you are complaining? Who'd you vote for in 1988? Cause the GOP and bush 1 made NAFTA. Clinton just signed it.
> 
> Every country protected their vital industries except America why? Because American workers make too much.
Click to expand...

Every President alive supported NAFTA.  They all showed up to offer support for Free Trade.  And we have displaced millions of workers over time as a result, and lowered wage standards as a result.

I'm very aware the GOP supports Free trade agreements....................and I've NEVER BEEN ON BOARD with them.  I've argued against it since NAFTA.

It's NOT ALL FREE TRADE...........The term is BS under the WTO as tariffs still apply under the WTO.  Countries like China hose us over by using taxes like the VAT, to substitute for tariffs.................and use currency manipulation to increase their exports.........not to mention the disputes with subsidizing their products that get sold over here..........and the WTO pretty much lets them get away with it.  Given their FAVORED STATUS on the WTO rules for tariffs on products.

aka they are fucking us and we don't even get a reach around.  In the past we dealt directly with them and other countries and didn't use foreign entities to decide our fate on trade..................and when unfair policies came up we threw up walls to make them come to the table over trade.


----------



## sealybobo

eagle1462010 said:


> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> eagle1462010 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> eagle1462010 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Free Trade agreements help poor countries and hurt modern countries.  In their mission statements they say that their goals are to end world poverty.  The only way for that to happen is for the poor countries wage standards to eventually go up, while the modern countries wage standards go down.  Meeting in equallibrium somewhere down the road.....................
> 
> Meaning we get the shaft, while Mexico gets the boom.
> There is no doubt that are manufacturing jobs in this country have been severely hurt by these deals.
> It is lowering our jobs, and hurting the American worker so big business can haul ass and take advantage of cheap labor and sell the products back here..............And they continue to do so as more and more jobs migrate to the 3rd World.
> 
> TPP is NAFTA  on Steroids....................and guarantees we get fucked again.
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe like my grandparents picked up and moved here from greece one day you'll be sneaking across the border into mexico.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Doubtful.  We can buy tacos here already.
> 
> Your point............................Are you for or against Free Trade and the loss of jobs that go with it....................But hey man, we get Chinese crap stuff for cheap now.  ECONOMICS 101........it's basic............how are you going to spend all that extra money on cheaper goods man................So says the ones pushing for it............as they ignore the lost jobs in this country.  Are you one of those people...........
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I'm not an isolationist but free trade is inevitable. In the future there won't be poor nations I hope. They will unionize.
> 
> You make a good point. We already buy our shit from china. Now you are complaining? Who'd you vote for in 1988? Cause the GOP and bush 1 made NAFTA. Clinton just signed it.
> 
> Every country protected their vital industries except America why? Because American workers make too much.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Every President alive supported NAFTA.  They all showed up to offer support for Free Trade.  And we have displaced millions of workers over time as a result, and lowered wage standards as a result.
> 
> I'm very aware the GOP supports Free trade agreements....................and I've NEVER BEEN ON BOARD with them.  I've argued against it since NAFTA.
> 
> It's NOT ALL FREE TRADE...........The term is BS under the WTO as tariffs still apply under the WTO.  Countries like China hose us over by using taxes like the VAT, to substitute for tariffs.................and use currency manipulation to increase their exports.........not to mention the disputes with subsidizing their products that get sold over here..........and the WTO pretty much lets them get away with it.  Given their FAVORED STATUS on the WTO rules for tariffs on products.
> 
> aka they are fucking us and we don't even get a reach around.  In the past we dealt directly with them and other countries and didn't use foreign entities to decide our fate on trade..................and when unfair policies came up we threw up walls to make them come to the table over trade.
Click to expand...

I can't argue.


----------



## frigidweirdo

eagle1462010 said:


> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> eagle1462010 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Free Trade agreements help poor countries and hurt modern countries.  In their mission statements they say that their goals are to end world poverty.  The only way for that to happen is for the poor countries wage standards to eventually go up, while the modern countries wage standards go down.  Meeting in equallibrium somewhere down the road.....................
> 
> Meaning we get the shaft, while Mexico gets the boom.
> There is no doubt that are manufacturing jobs in this country have been severely hurt by these deals.
> It is lowering our jobs, and hurting the American worker so big business can haul ass and take advantage of cheap labor and sell the products back here..............And they continue to do so as more and more jobs migrate to the 3rd World.
> 
> TPP is NAFTA  on Steroids....................and guarantees we get fucked again.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hey, if you go bomb those countries and put them back a few decades, it means they'll never get decent wages, it'll also mean you get cheap stuff from those countries meaning your money goes further.
> Hasn't that been US policy for a long time now?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> If you mean outsourcing of jobs..........well yeah.......take a look at the Trade deficits reported by Sessions in the article posted.
> Your money goes further................tell that to the displaced workers from the cuts here to provide jobs there...........
> 
> Trump brought up a 1 Billion dollar deal with Ford.  They are building a 1 Billion dollar plant in Mexico............How is that good for the American worker.............................It's not, nor is the outsourcing of jobs.
> 
> Looked at the labor participation rate................but it's ok the manipulated unemployment rate just doesn't count the ones dropped out of the labor force................
> 
> We are getting our asses handed to us by the likes of China and Mexico unless you like cheap Chinese products........That needs to change if we want to grow jobs here instead of abroad.  But that will not happen, they will displace more with the TPP.
Click to expand...


This is how things are funny. Not funny haha, funny they stink.

The US says that Capitalism is the way forwards, along with democracy. It goes around the world telling countries to be capitalist countries. It doesn't do this for the benefit of the countries it wants to be capitalist. It does it for its own benefit. 

Take Bolivia. The World Bank went to Bolivia and said "we'll give you some money if you privatize industries". So Bolivia, for some reason, said yes. They privatized the water industry, this led to 25% of people in La Paz not having clean water, something essential to life. 
Two companies took over the water supply. One was a French company (Suez) the other by Biwater and Bechtel (British and American). This happened in 1999. They didn't last that long, in 2005 they were terminated.

However the premise is that foreign companies go in, buy up, increase costs, reduce the wages for the workers, reduce coverage for the people, and all profits leave the country. Nothing benefits the host country, in this case Bolivia. 

Water supply and sanitation in Bolivia - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

Bolivia Food Water Watch

"In the late 1990s, the World Bank forced Bolivia to privatize the public water system of its third-largest city, Cochabamba, by threatening to withhold debt relief and other development assistance. In a process with just one bidder, U.S.-based Bechtel was granted a 40-year lease to take over Cochabamba‚ water through a subsidiary called Aguas del Tunari."

Another example is the dairy industry. Same thing happened, privatization, bought up by a foreign company, products cost more, farmers received less, profits left the country, benefiting the rich countries, like the USA. 

However to change the nature of the argument a little here. The US sees outsourcing. Hardly surprising, and why people are complaining about it I don't know. It happens to be a problem because of the incompetence of the US govt and state govts, especially in regards to education.

In other first world countries they realised that education is really important. What's the difference between first world and third world countries? Simple, third world countries earn less money. So, a first world country should be looking at high tech jobs. This means you need an educated workforce to take these jobs so that lower waged jobs can be outsourced and those people earning good wages buy products cheaply from countries which pay workers less.

However the US hasn't done that, and is suffering the consequences. However the political elite isn't telling you to get angry that they're incompetent. they're simply fighting over outsourcing.

To link the two parts together. The US demands Capitalism when screwing over other countries like Bolivia, and demands a reduction in capitalism when it screws the US over. Overall the US comes out better off. 

However the future for a country which can't get rid of the dollar bill because govt is so inept, and so locked away in corruption (that has been legitimised), and this leads to education not meeting the needs of the country to deal with the increase in China's development and education (they're producing highly educated robots, no creativity, no thought process by can work like mules and do high level jobs) and other countries rising up a little, the US is on the way down massively.

You can see from a site like this how little in the way of thought process is going on politically.


----------



## eagle1462010

House OKs Trade Bill To Give Help To Displaced Workers - Bloomberg Politics

The U.S. House of Representatives passed a $450 million worker-assistance measure Thursday that Democrats earlier helped defeat, sending it to President Barack Obama for his signature as part of a package of trade legislation.

The vote was 286-138. *The Trade Adjustment Assistance legislation continues a program that helps U.S. workers who lose their jobs as a result of international trade pacts.*

“This week’s votes represent a much-needed win for hardworking American families,” Obama said in an e-mailed statement. He said he will sign the trade bills as soon as they reach his desk.

“We stand ready to go to the next step.”

House Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi
“We stand ready to go to the next step,” said Democratic leader Nancy Pelosi of California on the House floor before the vote. She said Democratic efforts have helped mobilize attention on the issues surrounding trade pacts, including the effects on U.S. workers and the environment.

She said Democrats will be ready to shine a “bright spotlight” on the details of trade pacts as they come before Congress.

Passage of the worker aid measure was one of the last elements of a hard-fought win by Obama to push through a trade package that is a key second-term priority, even against opposition from his party. His victory was underscored by the Senate’s final passage Wednesday of a measure giving him fast-track trade authority.


In a Nut shell.  They KNOW THE DEAL WILL DISPLACE AMERICAN WORKERS.  It is on purpose, as the intent is to Globalize trade and end world poverty...................They go up..................and we go down................


----------



## eagle1462010

How Would the Trans-Pacific Partnership Promote the Off-Shoring of American Jobs?  

*Nearly five million American manufacturing jobs – one out of every four – have been lost since implementation of the North American Free Trade Agreement (NAFTA) and the World Trade Organization (WTO)*. *Since NAFTA, over 60,000 American manufacturing facilities have closed. The TPP would replicate and expand on the NAFTA model*.  A leaked text revealed that TPP is slated to include the extreme foreign investor privileges that help corporations offshore more U.S. jobs to low-wage countries. These NAFTA-style terms provide special benefits to firms that relocate abroad and eliminate many of the usual risks that make firms think twice about moving to low-wage countries.  Under the NAFTA model, U.S. manufacturing imports have soared while growth of U.S. manufacturing exports has slowed.  TPP includes Vietnam, a new favorite for corporations’ job off-shoring, because wages there are even lower than China.  Already, the growth of the U.S. trade deficit with China, since China entered the WTO in 2001, has had a devastating effect on U.S. workers and the U.S. economy.* Between 2001 and 2011, 2.7 million U.S. jobs were lost or displaced. Devastation of U.S. manufacturing drives down wages, erodes the tax base* and heightens inequality. Despite major gains in American worker productivity, real median wages hover at 1979 levels. Government data shows that* two out of every five displaced manufacturing workers who were rehired in 2012 experienced wage reductions of more than 20 percent.* With the loss of manufacturing, tax revenue that could have funded social services or local infrastructure projects has declined, while displaced workers have turned to ever-shrinking welfare programs. This has resulted in the virtual collapse of some local governments in areas hardest hit
http://www.exposethetpp.org/TPP_and_Off-Shoring_of_American_Jobs.pdf


----------

