# A Question of 9/11 Conspiracy Theorists



## DManInAZ (Sep 11, 2008)

For me, personally, I initially thought within a few hours of the events "wow, what a way for GWB to take the heat of his economic problems".

However, on the other side of the coin, how could you ensure that the number of people required to pull this off would stay quiet? It just seems that among those that would have been involved, at least a few would leak something. That is my question.

I welcome your thoughts.

Finally, i'd like to honor Stephen P. Driscoll, NYPD ESU (07/04/63 - 09/11/01)


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## Article 15 (Sep 11, 2008)

My answer is, you can't.

I think Bush is a good man with good intentions.  But I also think he's a dumbass that was too heavily influenced by the people around him ... people whom I would put on the less desirable list.

And I'm sorry for your loss.


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## DManInAZ (Sep 11, 2008)

Article 15 said:


> And I'm sorry for your loss.



Thanks. I'd like to call him a friend, although I didn't know him well. He was leaving a job and I took his place. However, every year on this day, I think of him first.


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## kirkster (Sep 11, 2008)

DManInAZ said:


> For me, personally, I initially thought within a few hours of the events "wow, what a way for GWB to take the heat of his economic problems".
> 
> However, on the other side of the coin, how could you ensure that the number of people required to pull this off would stay quiet? It just seems that among those that would have been involved, at least a few would leak something. That is my question.
> 
> ...



you obviously have issues with reality.


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## DManInAZ (Sep 11, 2008)

kirkster said:


> you obviously have issues with reality.



Please expound on this.


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## DiveCon (Sep 12, 2008)

DManInAZ said:


> For me, personally, I initially thought within a few hours of the events "wow, what a way for GWB to take the heat of his economic problems".
> 
> *However, on the other side of the coin, how could you ensure that the number of people required to pull this off would stay quiet? It just seems that among those that would have been involved, at least a few would leak something*. That is my question.
> 
> ...


 thats the thing
where is that someone that would say "i helped wire the buildings, and this is how we did it"
or, i helped X to do Y 
you dont have ANYONE making those claims
and the sheer numbers that would have had to been involved makes the troofer nonsense stand out as nonsense


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## eots (Sep 12, 2008)

DManInAZ said:


> For me, personally, I initially thought within a few hours of the events "wow, what a way for GWB to take the heat of his economic problems".
> 
> However, on the other side of the coin, how could you ensure that the number of people required to pull this off would stay quiet? It just seems that among those that would have been involved, at least a few would leak something. That is my question.
> 
> ...



the misguided and historical unsound belief that secrets can not be kept is a very false one,,my father was in military Intel he was honored with medals for operations that he was involved in 40s and 50s that had only recently been declassified..as  well people can and do die suddenly or simple disappear and do..I would like to reference you to a site please don't ignorant to belive these people and statements are made up..they are not..and you will see that those involved  in counter terrorism and military Intel do not belive secrets can not be kept or the logistics of such a operation to be unplausibly
Many well known and respected senior U.S. military officers, intelligence services veterans, and government officials have expressed significant criticism of the 9/11 Commission 

Patriots Question 9/11 - Responsible Criticism of the 9/11 Commission Report


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## DiveCon (Sep 12, 2008)

eots said:


> the misguided and historical unsound belief that secrets can not be kept is a very false one,,*my father was in military Intel he was honored with medals for operations that he was involved in 40s and 50s that had only recently been declassified*..as well people can and do die suddenly or simple disappear and do..I would like to reference you to a site please don't ignorant to belive these people and statements are made up..they are not..and you will see that those involved in counter terrorism and military Intel do not belive secrets can not be kept or the logistics of such a operation to be unplausibly
> Many well known and respected senior U.S. military officers, intelligence services veterans, and government officials have expressed significant criticism of the 9/11 Commission
> 
> <snipped troofer link>


and none of those OPs your dad were part of had any where near the complexity that 9/11 would have needed


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## DManInAZ (Sep 12, 2008)

eots said:


> the misguided and historical unsound belief that secrets can not be kept is a very false one,,my father was in military Intel he was honored with medals for operations that he was involved in 40s and 50s that had only recently been declassified..as  well people can and do die suddenly or simple disappear and do..I would like to reference you to a site please don't ignorant to belive these people and statements are made up..they are not..and you will see that those involved  in counter terrorism and military Intel do not belive secrets can not be kept or the logistics of such a operation to be unplausibly
> Many well known and respected senior U.S. military officers, intelligence services veterans, and government officials have expressed significant criticism of the 9/11 Commission
> 
> Patriots Question 9/11 - Responsible Criticism of the 9/11 Commission Report



I may be wrong on this, but isn't the sheer number of people killed in this unprecedented for an "operation"? I'm not saying that there aren't people who have no problem keeping something like this quiet. However, I think there would be a couple whose conscience would get the best of them just based on the large number of lives lost.


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## eots (Sep 12, 2008)

where do you come up with the concept that in would take this mass amount of people ?
It was the boldest false flag operation ..and it could well be their demise ...but again I would reference you to the patriots question 911 site ..if this concept that it would require masses of people where correct..do you not think ..they would have thought of this...and then examine the physics of 911 and you will soon find the official version to be impossible


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## DiveCon (Sep 12, 2008)

eots said:


> where do you come up with the concept that in would take this mass amount of people ?
> It was the boldest false flag operation ..and it could well be their demise ...but again I would reference you to the patriots question 911 site ..if this concept that it would require masses of people where correct..do you not think ..they would have thought of this...and then examine the physics of 911 and you will soon find the official version to be impossible


do you have any clue what it would have taken to just wire the towers for demolition?
and thats not including actually putting in the explosives


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## DManInAZ (Sep 12, 2008)

I guess I'm kinda stuck in the middle on this. I can see both positions.


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## RetiredGySgt (Sep 12, 2008)

Lets see. 4 aircraft Hijacked. Where did they find suicidal operatives to pull that off? at least 3 buildings loaded with explosives according to your pet theories. These would have required construction on pillars and supports in numerous places in those buildings, the placing and concealing of explosives and the wiring required to detonate those explosives. Security in each of the buildings would have had to be involved as well as any maintenance crews and any supervisors as well as any person that had access to those areas of each building.

Again the explosives would have had to be places at a minimum in 2 different places, the basement and on an upper floor higher in the building. Someone would have had to haul all the explosives wiring and detonator materials into the building, loaded on elevators, gained access to an upper floor, sealed off that upper floor, moved in construction equipment to work on the supports and pillars in the basement and that upper floor.

In the case of the Pentagon you have claimed a missile was fired at it. Which requires even more people to be involved. Someone had to acquire the missile and the system ( aircraft) that fired it, a pilot and ground crew. It would have required that someone haul in all the fake debris that was found at the missile strike site to make it look like a plane wreck. The FBI would have to have been involved since you claim they seized all the tapes from every business that was anywhere near the flight path, ohh and they seized them with in moments ( again according to you) of the supposed crash missile strike.

No one can explain exactly what kind of missile would have caused the type of damage done to the Pentagon. No one can explain why the aircraft that would have fired the missile was never seen by any radar or other aircraft or person on the ground. No one has explained where all the passengers, crew and the AIRCRAFT have gone that was hijacked in DC.

The plane had to go somewhere. That means an airfield or base was used, requiring Air traffic Controllers, ground crew, security and any other personnel required to run the airfield or base. The crew and passengers had to go somewhere or if murdered their bodies went somewhere. Requiring people to guard them or people to murder them transport their bodies and dispose of said bodies. Not to mention the plane had to be destroyed or dismantled and the debris or parts sent some where.

You have claimed that NORAD was involved, that it was ordered to stand down, that interceptors were ordered not to launch and firther have claimed a US jet shot down the flight in Pennsylvania. This would have involved NUMEROUS US Air Force personnel as well as Air National Guard. Pilots, ground crew, air traffic controllers, security, a whole laundry list of officers from lowest to highest.

The cover up would have required that every investigator, county, State, Federal be involved at all 3 locations. As well as the FBI investigating the crime. It would have involved personnel at the different airports and airlines of the aircraft hijacked and the air fields those planes took off from.

It would have included Foreign intelligence agencies since they were involved in identifying and tracking the supposed Arabs that were blamed for the attacks.

It would have included the people that reported the terrorists were training to fly air craft. The FBI agents that did the investigations and the city and State law enforcement involved in tjose investigations.

Further it is claimed we knew all along they were planning these attacks and did nothing, so it would have required that the operation include fake terrorists doing all the things required for the supposed information on that. Or all the investigators were involved.

Yup a couple guys in Dick Cheney's office could have pulled this off.


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## Luissa (Sep 12, 2008)

DiveCon said:


> do you have any clue what it would have taken to just wire the towers for demolition?
> and thats not including actually putting in the explosives


I agree with you there for one they have proven the fire from the jet fuel was the reason for the collapse of the buildings and the way they were designed which the terrorist probably banked on. And I also believe Bush ignored the warning signs not out of corruption but out of being a dumbass!


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## DiveCon (Sep 12, 2008)

Luissa27 said:


> I agree with you there for one they have proven the fire from the jet fuel was the reason for the collapse of the buildings and the way they were designed which the terrorist probably banked on. And I also believe Bush ignored the warning signs not out of corruption but out of being a dumbass!


actually, it was a combination of things that caused the collapse, including the weakened structure from where the planes crashed into the building, putting more stress on the remaining structures
the fire was also part of it not melting the steel, but heating it to a point of structural failure
these are all things that are FACTS in physics
and the weak point in the buildings were the way the floors were connected to the beams
it was just a simple piece of steel attached by bolts
when the trusses weakened and sagged, they put too much stress on the joints and began to fail, after a few did, the domino effect took over and then the sheer weight of the floors above and the laws of motion and inertia took over


btw, it was also already shown that our government had pieces of the puzzle, but becauise of the Gorelick wall(limiting communications between the military anhd civilian agencies) that no one had the complete picture to put them together


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## MichaelCollins (Sep 12, 2008)

I am pretty convinced that BUSHTEAM were well aware that 911 was going to happen. Not sure if they were actually involved in the planning and execution ..but it is pretty obvious they knew about it and welcomed it...

It cannot be a coincidence that as soon as BUSHTEAM get into power..an event occurs which allows them free licence to carry out their long intended and long planned invasion of Iraq....and also to create a new imaginary enemy....and to create a large proportion of the US public with FEAR and hatred.

For those of you ..who cant believe that your leaders would sacrifice 3000 US lives...why do you doubt this? They are the same people who showed no problem in dropping 1000s of bombs on iraqi civilians....and surely all human life is equal?...and they did this for money...pure and simple...pretty cold hearted.

For those who insist that BUSHTEAM didnt know about it... it must mean that you believe the US secret services are unbelievably incompetent?


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## glockmail (Sep 12, 2008)

eots said:


> .......and then examine the physics of 911 and you will soon find the official version to be impossible



This is where I look at the conspiracy theory and see that is it complete bullshit. Unlike all the kooks who espouse it, I actually know a bit about how structures are built and respond to loads.


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## DiveCon (Sep 12, 2008)

MichaelCollins said:


> I am pretty convinced that BUSHTEAM were well aware that 911 was going to happen. Not sure if they were actually involved in the planning and execution ..but it is pretty obvious they knew about it and welcomed it...
> 
> It cannot be a coincidence that as soon as BUSHTEAM get into power..an event occurs which allows them free licence to carry out their long intended and long planned invasion of Iraq....and also to create a new imaginary enemy....and to create a large proportion of the US public with FEAR and hatred.
> 
> ...


you believe this because you are an ignorant moron


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## editec (Sep 12, 2008)

MichaelCollins said:


> I am pretty convinced that BUSHTEAM were well aware that 911 was going to happen. Not sure if they were actually involved in the planning and execution ..but it is pretty obvious they knew about it and welcomed it...


 
Based on what evidence?



> It cannot be a coincidence that as soon as BUSHTEAM get into power..an event occurs which allows them free licence to carry out their long intended and long planned invasion of Iraq....and also to create a new imaginary enemy....and to create a large proportion of the US public with FEAR and hatred.


 
A coincidence? Using in in the way you're using it in the above,, I don't think you understand what the word means.

Using it the way you're using it now -- fact and logic free -- I mean, you could make the case the Lincoln plotted to have the South fire on Fort Sumpter so that he would be shot in Ford's theater.



> For those of you ..who cant believe that your leaders would sacrifice 3000 US lives...why do you doubt this? They are the same people who showed no problem in dropping 1000s of bombs on iraqi civilians....and surely all human life is equal?...and they did this for money...pure and simple...pretty cold hearted.


 
I've known some sociopathic personalities who can kill without remorse. Do you suppose because they are what they are, they therefore must have killed Kennedy? 

That is an example of the _connecting-the-dots-that-aren't-there_ dislogic you're using in the above argument.

Just because someone is capable of real evil, doesn't mean they committed any particular crime.



> For those who insist that BUSHTEAM didnt know about it... it must mean that you believe the US secret services are unbelievably incompetent?


 
Yes. Isn't that obvious? 

Consider...Our combined INTEL services didn't know about the Russian missles in Cuba until they were installed. They were caught with their pants down about the Berlin Wall. They really thought the Bay of Pigs would work. They really though Saharto was a Communist. They NEVER managed to get a single well placed spy in the Kremlin, either.

Damned right I think our INTEL is not competent when it comes to knowing much about the Islamic organzations working against the West. 

When it comes to infiltrated Islamic organizations? We're even less prepared to infiltration of those, than we were to infliltrate the Soviet Union, *which they failed to do for nearly fourty years.*

So, in anwer to you question, I definitely DO think they are not competent to know in advance that such operations are happening. I', dubious our INTEL has actually stopped any foreign based terrorist plot to date. Somethings coming from american based amateurs, maybe, but Al Qada? Not a chance. 

What little they actually knew -- those fragments of information that might have lead them to understand something involving passenger airliners as weapons -- was not coordinated between divergent INTEL organiations which had those factoids.

The White House wasn't competent to put it together. Hell, evidence suggests that they weren't even listening to the good data they WERE given.

And even if they had been competent, they'd still not have known enough to know what was planned, the target, or the time.

Hey, I love a conspiracy theory as much as the next guy.

But this one you're fielding here, just doesn't hold together any better than the WTC did.


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## Care4all (Sep 12, 2008)

DiveCon said:


> do you have any clue what it would have taken to just wire the towers for demolition?
> and thats not including actually putting in the explosives



I remember watching one of those 911 conspiracy videos/movies on the net about 3 years ago that blew my mind.....but then i just dismissed it because it truely was too nutszoid to believe....

On this video it had a man speaking that worked in one of the financial corps in the building and he said that the buildings upper floors were "powered down" 2 days right prior to 911....and due to this power down, security cameras were shut down and people were free to enter the building.

I just googled this and found a blip of what this guy was saying on the video.

So, if this is true, then wiring the building could have taken place on the upper floors on the 2 prior days.

Things like this are what make the Conspiracy theories continue on....
-----------------------------------------------------------

The other thing that gives credence to someone knowing ahead of time were the Put Options....and the millions "someone or some financial group or some other country" made off of the tradgedy of the airlines crashing in to the towers.  "Someone" made millions and we have never been told who it was that placed/bought these Put Options and how they knew to place them.

Though I have seen recently on a show about prophesy on the History channel, (myan, bible, seers etc) that there is a man that created "Spiders" to scan the web for key words that helps predict the future to a degree, so that they could make better predictions on the stock market....and this system of Spiders was already in place prior to 911, so it is possible that these spiders helped predict a tradgedy around the time of 911, thus financial institutions placing the Put Options on the Airlines and the financial institutions in the world trade center that were going to be hurt????

9/11 Insider Trading

here's the thing on the guy talking about the trade center power down the days prior to 911.



> Pre-9/11 World Trade Center Power-Down
> by Victor Thorn - April 23, 2004
> Did the World Trade Center towers undergo a deliberate power-down on the weekend prior to the 9-11 terrorist attacks? According to Scott Forbes, a senior database administrator for Fiduciary Trust, Inc.  a high-net investment bank which was later acquired by Franklin Templeton  this is precisely what took place. Forbes, who was hired by Fiduciary in 1999 and is now stationed at a U.K. branch office, was working on the weekend of September 8-9, 2001, and said that his company was given three weeks advance notice that New Yorks Port Authority would take out power in the South Tower from the 48th floor up. The reason: the Port Authority was performing a cabling upgrade to increase the WTCs computer bandwidth.
> 
> ...



I still don't buy in to the administration knowing or planning or whatever regarding 911, but there are still many questions regarding this devasting attack that were left unanswered imho, which is what fuels conspiracy theories by mixing in some truth with a bunch of lies.

care


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## DiveCon (Sep 12, 2008)

Care4all said:


> I remember watching one of those 911 conspiracy videos/movies on the net about 3 years ago that blew my mind.....but then i just dismissed it because it truely was too nutszoid to believe....
> 
> On this video it had a man speaking that worked in one of the financial corps in the building and he said that the buildings upper floors were "powered down" 2 days right prior to 911....and due to this power down, security cameras were shut down and people were free to enter the building.
> 
> ...


uh, it would have taken a lot longer than 2 days to wire a building of that size

especially to have done it and not had people wonder "hey, what are these wires for"


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## Care4all (Sep 13, 2008)

DiveCon said:


> uh, it would have taken a lot longer than 2 days to wire a building of that size
> 
> especially to have done it and not had people wonder "hey, what are these wires for"



I assume you are right on this, but wires were everywhere, this group was supposedly rewiring for extra band width...so i don't think anyone would think anything about wiring taking place....

keeping this out of the spotlight and main stream news is suspicious though, and as i said, unanswered or unaddressed things like this allow for Conspiracy theories to flourish.

Care


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## LA RAM FAN (Sep 13, 2008)

eots said:


> the misguided and historical unsound belief that secrets can not be kept is a very false one,,my father was in military Intel he was honored with medals for operations that he was involved in 40s and 50s that had only recently been declassified..as  well people can and do die suddenly or simple disappear and do..I would like to reference you to a site please don't ignorant to belive these people and statements are made up..they are not..and you will see that those involved  in counter terrorism and military Intel do not belive secrets can not be kept or the logistics of such a operation to be unplausibly
> Many well known and respected senior U.S. military officers, intelligence services veterans, and government officials have expressed significant criticism of the 9/11 Commission
> 
> Patriots Question 9/11 - Responsible Criticism of the 9/11 Commission Report



well done again eots. you also got to remember that Bushs cousin and brother were in charge of the security for the towers and that george bush sr was the former director of the CIA,and anybody who has ever done any research on the CIA knows about the evil autrocities they have done against people of the populations of the world over the years rivals the third reichs.at least ONE former CIA director has come forward and talked about that before in the past and wrote a book on it confessing it all before he died as well. All it would take is less than a hundred people to place the explosives in the towers in the months prior to it all.Not hard to do at all especially when you got those two evil bastards in charge of the security.

we dont know half of what goes on in washington and around the world that the government does because its an out of control government headed by evil,greedy people who to them,killing over 3000 people is as meaningless to them as it is to us to step on a bunch of ants.Money talks and they all profited from it.Bush and cheney profited in millions from all this.The fact is the government keeps secrets from the population of the world as a matter of routine.and as far as the CIA AND FBI,they have made a living for YEARS on keeping secrets from the population of the world.and there have been people such as sybil whats her name,that have come forward with information that it was an inside job only to be harrassed and threatened by government officials.Its just like the kennedy assassination,they HAVENT been able to keep it a secret that it was an inside job,thats why millions of people more and more every year around the world, are coming to that conclusion on the truth that it WAS an inside job.


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## LA RAM FAN (Sep 13, 2008)

glockmail said:


> This is where I look at the conspiracy theory and see that is it complete bullshit. Unlike all the kooks who espouse it, I actually know a bit about how structures are built and respond to loads.



well yeah the governments official conspiracy that bin laden and muslims were behind it IS complete Bullshit.you can cliam you know about how structures are built and all but the reason we know it was an inside job is that there are thousands of architech experts out there such as richard gage who can refute it all.the fact that there are so many out there backing up richard gage and demolition experts backing him up is overwheming proof that explosives brought the towers down.


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## dilloduck (Sep 13, 2008)

9/11 inside job said:


> well yeah the governments official conspiracy that bin laden and muslims were behind it IS complete Bullshit.you can cliam you know about how structures are built and all but the reason we know it was an inside job is that there are thousands of architech experts out there such as richard gage who can refute it all.the fact that there are so many out there backing up richard gage and demolition experts backing him up is overwheming proof that explosives brought the towers down.



then why fly 2 planes into them ?


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## DiveCon (Sep 13, 2008)

9/11 inside job said:


> well yeah the governments official conspiracy that bin laden and muslims were behind it IS complete Bullshit.you can cliam you know about how structures are built and all but the reason we know it was an inside job is that there are thousands of architech experts out there such as richard gage who can refute it all.the fact that there are so many out there backing up richard gage and demolition experts backing him up is overwheming proof that explosives brought the towers down.


yes, because science and physics have an agenda


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## eots (Sep 14, 2008)

[





> QUOTE=RetiredGySgt;778981]Lets see. 4 aircraft Hijacked. Where did they find suicidal operatives to pull that off?



the hijackers where real,,,pawns and there activitys where noted by citizens ans intel agents but silienced

The White House had (at least ) 28 Advanced Intelligence Warnings Prior to 9/11 

The White House had (at least ) 28 Advanced Intelligence Warnings Prior to 9/11  Compiled by Eric Smith

frontline: the man who knew | PBS  FBI Special Agent John O'Neill was the FBI's leading expert on Al Qaeda. But to people at FBI headquarters he was too much of a maverick and they stopped 

frontline: the man who knew | PBS








> at least 3 buildings loaded with explosives according to your pet theories. These would have required construction on pillars and supports in numerous places in those buildings, the placing and concealing of explosives and the wiring required to detonate those explosives. Security in each of the buildings would have had to be involved as well as any maintenance crews and any supervisors as well as any person that had access to those areas of each building.
> 
> Again the explosives would have had to be places at a minimum in 2 different places, the basement and on an upper floor higher in the building. Someone would have had to haul all the explosives wiring and detonator materials into the building, loaded on elevators, gained access to an upper floor, sealed off that upper floor, moved in construction equipment to work on the supports and pillars in the basement and that upper floor


.

Scott Forbes is a Senior Database Administrator for Fiduciary Trust and used to work in the South Tower of the WTC. This interview with him began last September and was conducted through a series of instant messaging and e-mails. Scott can be reached at:
scottforbes2002@hotmail.com

Killtown: Scott Forbes Interview




 9/11 - Explosion Witness William Rodriguez


Rodriguez at L.A. 9/11 Confrence - AOL Video

LiveLeak.com - Witness To WTC Explosions On 9/11 Kills Himself  This is identical to the story that William Rodriguez has related, .... Ultra 500+ Zoom of first WTC hit 9/11. Description from youtube footage "**You have ...
LiveLeak.com - Witness To WTC Explosions On 9/11 Kills Himself - 55k 

In the case of the Pentagon you have claimed a missile was fired at it. Which requires even more people to be involved. Someone had to acquire the missile and the system ( aircraft) that fired it, a pilot and ground crew. It would have required that someone haul in all the fake debris that was found at the missile strike site to make it look like a plane wreck. The FBI would have to have been involved since you 





> claim they seized all the tapes from every business that was anywhere near the flight path, ohh and they seized them with in moments ( again according to you) of the supposed crash missile strike.




FBI Withholding 84 More Tapes of Pentagon on 9/11
Magically Only 1 shows impact so why not release the rest?

Steve Watson / Infowars | May 17 2006

The FBI is withholding at least another 84 surveillance tapes that were seized in the immediate aftermath of the attack on the Pentagon.

There is an ongoing lawsuit to get these tapes released via the Freedom of Information Act. The FBI has admitted in a statement to attorney, Scott Hodes, representative of Mr Scott Bingham who runs the website Flight77.info, that they have these tapes, that they have already analyzed them and are still keeping them under lock and key.

A great deal of speculation has surrounded reports that on the morning of september 11th, 2001 the FBI visited two private businesses near the pentagon and confiscated several security camera video tapes.

The first is said to be the Cigto gas station with several security cameras aimed in the direction of the pentagon. Flight 77 flew directly over the gas station at an altitude of roughly 50 feet, less than 3 seconds from impact.

Three months after 9/11 The National Geographic and others reported on this, publishing short interviews with the gas station owner, Jose Velasquez.





> No one can explain exactly what kind of missile would have caused the type of damage done to the Pentagon. No one can explain why the aircraft that would have fired the missile was never seen by any radar or other aircraft or person on the ground. No one has explained where all the passengers, crew and the AIRCRAFT have gone that was hijacked in DC.
> 
> The plane had to go somewhere. That means an airfield or base was used, requiring Air traffic Controllers, ground crew, security and any other personnel required to run the airfield or base. The crew and passengers had to go somewhere or if murdered their bodies went somewhere. Requiring people to guard them or people to murder them transport their bodies and dispose of said bodies. Not to mention the plane had to be destroyed or dismantled and the debris or parts sent some where.







*Major General Albert Stubblebine*

Major General Albert Stubblebine, U.S. Army (ret)  Former Commanding General of U.S. Army Intelligence and Security Command, 1981 - 1984.  Also commanded the U.S. Armys Electronic Research and Development Command and the U.S. Armys Intelligence School and Center. Former head of Imagery Interpretation for Scientific and Technical Intelligence. 32-year Army career. 

Member, Military Intelligence Hall of Fame. 
Video 7/11/06: "One of my experiences in the Army was being in charge of the Armys Imagery Interpretation for Scientific and Technical Intelligence during the Cold War.  I measured pieces of Soviet equipment from photographs. It was my job. I look at the hole in the Pentagon and I look at the size of an airplane that was supposed to have hit the Pentagon. And I said, The plane does not fit in that hole. So what did hit the Pentagon? What hit it? Where is it? What's going on?" http://www.und 


Editor's note: For more information on the impact at the Pentagon, see Colonel Nelson, Commander Muga, Lt. Col. Kwiatkowski, Lt. Col. Latas, Major Rokke, Capt. Wittenberg, Capt. Davis, Barbara Honegger, April Gallop, Colonel Bunel, and Steve DeChiaro. 


Bio: Canadian Sub 




Lt. Col. Karen U. Kwiatkowski, PhD, U.S. Air Force (ret)  Former Political-Military Affairs Officer in the Office of the Secretary of Defense. Also served on the staff of the Director of the National Security Agency. 20-year Air Force career.  Member adjunct faculty, Political Science Department, James Madison University.  Instructor, University of Maryland University College and American Public University System.  Author of African Crisis Response Initiative: Past Present and Future (2000) and Expeditionary Air Operations in Africa: Challenges and Solutions (2001). 
Contributor to 9/11 and American Empire: Intellectuals Speak Out 8/23/06:  Account of Lt. Col. Karen Kwiatkowski, Pentagon employee and eyewitness to the events at the Pentagon on 9/11.  "I believe the Commission failed to deeply examine the topic at hand, failed to apply scientific rigor to its assessment of events leading up to and including 9/11, failed to produce a believable and unbiased summary of what happened, failed to fully examine why it happened, and even failed to include a set of unanswered questions for future research. ... 

It is as a scientist that I have the most trouble with the official government conspiracy theory, mainly because it does not satisfy the rules of probability or physics.  The collapses of the World Trade Center buildings clearly violate the laws of probability and physics. ... 

There was a dearth of visible debris on the relatively unmarked [Pentagon] lawn, where I stood only minutes after the impact.  Beyond this strange absence of airliner debris, there was no sign of the kind of damage to the Pentagon structure one would expect from the impact of a large airliner. This visible evidence or lack thereof may also have been apparent to the secretary of defense [Donald Rumsfeld], who in an unfortunate slip of the tongue referred to the aircraft that slammed into the Pentagon as a "missile". ... 

I saw nothing of significance at the point of impact - no airplane metal or cargo debris was blowing on the lawn in front of the damaged building as smoke billowed from within the Pentagon. ... all of us staring at the Pentagon that morning were indeed looking for such debris, but what we expected to see was not evident. 

The same is true with regard to the kind of damage we expected. ... But I did not see this kind of damage. Rather, the facade had a rather small hole, no larger than 20 feet in diameter. Although this facade later collapsed, it remained standing for 30 or 40 minutes, with the roof line remaining relatively straight.  

The scene, in short, was not what I would have expected from a strike by a large jetliner. It was, however, exactly what one would expect if a missile had struck the Pentagon. ... 

More information is certainly needed regarding the events of 9/11 and the events leading up to that terrible day." 


Editor's note: For more information on the impact at the Pentagon, see General Stubblebine, Colonel Nelson, Commander Muga, Lt. Col. Latas, Major Rokke, Capt. Wittenberg, Capt. Davis, Barbara Honegger, April Gallop, Colonel Bunel, and Steve DeChiaro. 


Member: Scientific Panel Investigating Nine-Eleven  Association Statement: "We have found solid scientific grounds on which to question the interpretation put upon the events of September 11, 2001 by the Office of the President of the United States of America and subsequently propagated by the major media of western nations." 


Bio: http://militaryweek.com/ 

Patriots Question 9/11 - Responsible Criticism of the 9/11 Commission Report




> You have claimed that NORAD was involved, that it was ordered to stand down, that interceptors were ordered not to launch and firther have claimed a US jet shot down the flight in Pennsylvania. This would have involved NUMEROUS US Air Force personnel as well as Air National Guard. Pilots, ground crew, air traffic controllers, security, a whole laundry list of officers from lowest to highest.



9/11 CBS NEWS REPORT ON NORAD STAND DOWN


[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6JNWGl8f_44]YouTube - 9/11 CBS NEWS REPORT ON NORAD STAND DOWN[/ame]

The cover up would have required that every investigator, county, State, Federal be involved at all 3 locations. As well as the FBI investigating the crime. It would have involved personnel at the different airports and airlines of the aircraft hijacked and the air fields those planes took off from.

It would have included Foreign intelligence agencies since they were involved in identifying and tracking the supposed Arabs that were blamed for the attacks.


Israeli MOSSAD admitting 9/11 we were trying to document9/11
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w0hmhLycNyQ]YouTube - Israeli MOSSAD admitting 9/11 we were trying to document9/11[/ame]

The Five Dancing Israelis
Arrested On 9-11

As the world watched in disbelief and asked the question...


...Mossad operatives were seen dancing with joy.

 A Mossad surveillance team made quite a public spectacle of themselves on 9-11.

The New York Times reported Thursday that a group of five men had set up video cameras aimed at the Twin Towers prior to the attack on Tuesday, and were seen congratulating one another afterwards. (1) 

Police received several calls from angry New Jersey residents claiming "middle-eastern" men with a white van were videotaping the disaster with shouts of joy and mockery. (2)

"They were like happy, you know  They didn't look shocked to me" said a witness. (3)

9-11 Attacks: The Five Dancing Israelis Arrested on 9-11

It would have included the people that reported the terrorists were training to fly air craft. The FBI agents that did the investigations and the city and State law enforcement involved in tjose investigations.



> Further it is claimed we knew all along they were planning these attacks and did nothing, so it would have required that the operation include fake terrorists doing all the things required for the supposed information on that. Or all the investigators were involved.




see prior knowledge






> Yup a couple guys in Dick Cheney's office could have pulled this off.:cuckoo


:[/QUOTE]


----------



## glockmail (Sep 14, 2008)

9/11 inside job said:


> well yeah the governments official conspiracy that bin laden and muslims were behind it IS complete Bullshit.you can cliam you know about how structures are built and all but the reason we know it was an inside job is that there are thousands of architech experts out there such as *richard gage* who can refute it all.the fact that there are so many out there backing up richard gage and demolition experts backing him up is overwheming proof that explosives brought the towers down.


 For every Richard Gage (no education or experience in structural or forensic engineering) you bring up I can link to 100's of structural engineers who disagree with his emotion-laced findings, including Gene Corley (BS civil engineering, MS structural engineering, PhD structural engineering, licensed in 18 states and chartered in the UK).


----------



## eots (Sep 14, 2008)

glockmail said:


> For every Richard Gage (no education or experience in structural or forensic engineering) you bring up I can link to 100's of structural engineers who disagree with his emotion-laced findings, including Gene Corley (BS civil engineering, MS structural engineering, PhD structural engineering, licensed in 18 states and chartered in the UK).



oh please do...530+ Engineers and Architects 

Engineers and Architects Question the 9/11 Commission Report


Patriots Question 9/11 - Engineers and Architects Question the 9/11 Commission Report


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## glockmail (Sep 14, 2008)

eots said:


> oh please do...530+ Engineers and Architects
> 
> Engineers and Architects Question the 9/11 Commission Report
> 
> ...


 The top engineer from your link, his sole statement:


> All three [WTC] collapses were very uniform in nature. Natural collapses due to unplanned events are not uniform."


He apparently agrees that these were not natural events.


----------



## eots (Sep 14, 2008)

*Richard Gage*, AIA, Architect &#8211; Member, American Institute of Architects.  A practicing Architect for 20 years who has worked on most types of building construction including numerous fire-proofed steel-framed buildings.  Founding member of Architects and Engineers for 9/11 Truth. 
Speech at Sonoma State University 4/20/07: 

"Another 2006 poll by Scripps Howard, Ohio University, which found that a shocking 16% believe that the World Trade Center's Twin Towers were brought down by explosives.  Unfortunately, my research has also concluded that this is true.  Tonight I will present to you the very clear evidence that all three World Trade Center high-rise buildings, the Twin Towers and Building 7 were destroyed not by fire as our government has told us, but by controlled demolition with explosives." About Us 


*Frank A. DeMartini &#8211; WTC victim.  Architect and WTC Construction Manager,* North Tower, 88th floor.  Demartini first worked at the World Trade Center when Leslie E. Robertson Associates hired him to assess damage from the terrorist truck bombing in 1993. 

Video interview 1/25/01: "The [Twin Tower] building was designed to have a fully loaded 707 crash into it. That was the largest plane at the time. I believe that the building probably could sustain multiple impacts of jetliners because this structure is like the mosquito netting on your screen door. This intense grid * and the jet-plane is just a pencil puncturing that screen netting. It really does nothing to the screen netting." Google Video 


Editor's note: The Boeing 767-200s that impacted the Twin Towers on 9/11 were only slightly larger than 707s and DC 8s, the types of jetliners whose impacts the World Trade Center's designers anticipated.  The maximum takeoff weight of the 707 is 15% less than the 767. 


Bio: http://www.legacy.com 

*Scott C. Grainger, BS CE, PE &#8211; Licensed Professional Civil Engineer and/or Fire Protection *Engineer in the States of Arizona, California, Colorado, Nevada, New Mexico, New York, Utah, Virginia, Washington, and Wyoming.  Owner of Grainger Consulting, Inc., a fire protection engineering firm (23 years).  Former Chairman, Arizona State Fire Code Committee.  Former President of the Arizona Chapter of the Society of Fire Protection Engineers.  Current Member of the Forensic Sciences Committee and the Fire Standards Committee of ASTM International (formerly American Society for Testing and Materials ).  Senior Member, National Academy of Forensic Engineers. 
Statement in support of Architects and Engineers petition: 

"Approximately 50% of my work is forensic. I am licensed in 9 States. In addition to my forensic work, a good portion of my work is in the design of structural fireproofing systems. 

All three [WTC] collapses were very uniform in nature. Natural collapses due to unplanned events are not uniform."  AE911Truth 



*Hugo Bachmann, PhD &#8211; Professor Emeritus and former Chairman of the Department of Structural Dynamics and Earthquake Engineering*, Swiss Federal Institute of Technology.  Author and co-author of Erdbebenbemessung von Stahlbetonhochbauten (Seismic Analysis of Concrete Reinforced Structures) (1990), Vibration Problems in Structures: Practical Guidelines (1995), Biege- und Schubversuche an teilweise vorgespannten Leichtbetonbalken (Structural Analysis of Linked Concrete Beams) (1998), Hochbau für Ingenieure. Eine Einführung (Structural Construction for Engineers. An introduction) (2001), Erdbebensicherung von Bauwerken (Earthquake-proofing Buildings) (2002). 

Tages Anzeiger Article 9/9/06: "In my opinion the building WTC 7 was, with great probability, professionally demolished," says Hugo Bachmann, Emeritus ETH [Swiss Federal Institute of Technology] - Professor of Structural Analysis and Construction. And also Jörg Schneider, likewise emeritus ETH - Professor of Structural Analysis and Construction, interprets the few available video recordings as evidence that "the building WTC 7 was with great probability demolished." 
English translation: Intro
Original in German: Intro


----------



## dilloduck (Sep 14, 2008)

Why bother flying planes into them ?


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## eots (Sep 14, 2008)

I would think that was obvious...to appear like a devastating terrorist attack...to have patsises to take the blame..if the towers had not fallen the support for invasion would have been less assured..etc.. etc...that's all you have to say ?


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## dilloduck (Sep 14, 2008)

eots said:


> I would think that was obvious...to appear like a devastating terrorist attack...to have patsises to take the blame..if the towers had not fallen the support for invasion would have been less assured..etc.. etc...that's all you have to say ?



Do you mean to tell me that flying an airliner into each of the twin towers might not have been enough so they rigged them to blow for added effect ???


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## eots (Sep 14, 2008)

that would be my ..opinion.. a real investigation could answer these questions..but regardless the forensics prove a controlled demolition


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## RetiredGySgt (Sep 15, 2008)

eots said:


> that would be my ..opinion.. a real investigation could answer these questions..but regardless the forensics prove a controlled demolition



And again, where did they find the "terrorists" to commit suicide for the cause? What happened to the plane in DC? If they were not Arabs why did none of the people calling on cell phones tell us they were all white guys in business suits?

You still haven't explained how hundreds to thousands of co conspirators have been kept silent all these years.


----------



## glockmail (Sep 15, 2008)

......



eots said:


> that would be my ..opinion.. a real investigation could answer these questions..but regardless the forensics prove a controlled demolition


That's a bald-faced lie, of course. Also, repeating the resumes of your panel of experts does nothing to refute my earlier assessment of them. Most of them have no education or experience in either structural or forensic engineering, and none of them has education or experience that even come close to the experts that disagree with them.


----------



## sealybobo (Sep 15, 2008)

DManInAZ said:


> For me, personally, I initially thought within a few hours of the events "wow, what a way for GWB to take the heat of his economic problems".
> 
> However, on the other side of the coin, how could you ensure that the number of people required to pull this off would stay quiet? It just seems that among those that would have been involved, at least a few would leak something. That is my question.
> 
> ...



PNAC members PNAC Neo-Con Artists

Remember Scott McClellan told us Bush lied us into the war?  What the fuck did any of us do about it?  Nothing.  So even if one of them did come out and talk, what are they going to say?  Bush was warned and looked the other way?  We know he was warned.  The question is, did he mean to look the other way or is he just neglegent?  Hell, with his ties to the Bin Ladin family going back 30 years, I say he's more involved than just looking the other way.  No I don't think he met with Mohammad Atta, but I bet his Saudi billionaire buddies are a part of the New World Order of PNAC too.

See, they don't care about muslim or women or gays.  It's rich vs. poor.  NEW WORLD ORDER!!!

Chaney had control of NORAD.  Why?  He can give you any excuse he wants.  You have to accept it.  And since half of America WANTS to believe him, he'll be ok.  Even though no VP has ever taken control of NORAD, and how ironic it was when 9-11 occured.  Otherwise, our airforce would have shot those planes out of the sky before they reached their targets.  

Elliott Abrams   Gary Bauer   William J. Bennett   Jeb Bush

Dick Cheney    Eliot A. Cohen    Midge Decter    Paula Dobriansky    Steve Forbes

Aaron Friedberg   Francis Fukuyama   Frank Gaffney   Fred C. Ikle

Donald Kagan   Zalmay Khalilzad   I. Lewis Libby    Norman Podhoretz

Dan Quayle   Peter W. Rodman    Stephen P. Rosen    Henry S. Rowen

Donald Rumsfeld   Vin Weber   George Weigel   Paul Wolfowitz


We already sort of know they allowed it to happen.  They said in PNAC that they needed a Pearl Harbor type event.


----------



## eots (Sep 15, 2008)

RetiredGySgt said:


> > And again, where did they find the "terrorists" to commit suicide for the cause?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## eots (Sep 15, 2008)

glockmail said:


> ......
> 
> 
> That's a bald-faced lie, of course. Also, repeating the resumes of your panel of experts does nothing to refute my earlier assessment of them. Most of them have no education or experience in either structural or forensic engineering, and none of them has education or experience that even come close to the experts that disagree with them.



blah ..blah..blah you make statements but back the with........NOTHING


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## dilloduck (Sep 15, 2008)

eots said:


> RetiredGySgt said:
> 
> 
> > OK i will answer yet again the terrorist where real... trained right her...known to citizens ,fbi and cia...just all warnings where ignored ,,they where all-cia-duh assets ...as is bin laden
> ...


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## glockmail (Sep 15, 2008)

eots said:


> blah ..blah..blah you make statements but back the with........NOTHING


Looks like your usual response.


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## eots (Sep 15, 2008)

dilloduck said:


> eots said:
> 
> 
> > how come they forgot to blow the Penatagon and the White House
> ...


----------



## dilloduck (Sep 15, 2008)

but the bombings --they messed up the bombings.


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## eots (Sep 15, 2008)

but mindless..your little quips are mindless..


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## Jarvis (Sep 15, 2008)

WOW!  all I can say was I never in a million years thought that there were this many people out of there mind.  Was I the only person that watched the planes fly into the buildings?  Was I the only person that found out about the "Let's Roll" on the last call home made on PA flight right before they took over the highjackers and crashed the plane into the field?


----------



## DiveCon (Sep 15, 2008)

eots said:


> OK i will answer yet again the terrorist where real... trained right her...known to citizens ,fbi and cia...just all warnings where ignored ,,they where all-cia-duh assets ...as is bin laden
> 
> What happened to the plane in DC? If they were not Arabs why did none of the people calling on cell phones tell us they were all white guys in business suits?
> .
> ...


well, since he didnt say "hundreds of thousands" i guess that makes you the ignorant one


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## dilloduck (Sep 15, 2008)

eots said:


> but mindless..your little quips are mindless..



think of them as teeny tiny clues to help you find your way back to today.


----------



## RetiredGySgt (Sep 15, 2008)

DiveCon said:


> well, since he didnt say "hundreds of thousands" i guess that makes you the ignorant one



Reading never was his strong suit. Ask him why he doesn't now provide us with the OTHER Pentagon claim? The one where the "witness" argued that the debris which WAS all over the place was from the wrong aircraft.


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## eots (Sep 15, 2008)

well then a few hundred perhaps ..you don't believe that could be maintained? and again I would point out I will place more faith in what *high level* Intel agents and counter terrorism experts believe is logistically possible than *you*...and yes there is some conflict in eyewitness testimony this is why you investigate and interview and release the surveillance tapes


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## DiveCon (Sep 15, 2008)

eots said:


> well then a few hundred perhaps ..you don't believe that could be maintained? and again I would point out I will place more faith in what *high level* Intel agents and counter terrorism experts believe is logistically possible than *you*...and yes there is some conflict in eyewitness testimony this is why you investigate and interview and release the surveillance tapes


no one has convinced me that you are right
and i highly doubt you are capable to convince anyone that actually thinks
science is not on your side

and quite frankly, i believe your quotes of these people are taken out of context or, then never actually said anything of the sort
i have seen too many 'TROOTHERS' totally lie about what someone has said


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## RetiredGySgt (Sep 16, 2008)

A cover up would require that every investigator in new York, Pennsylvania and Washington DC were in on it. This includes local, County, State and Federal personnel. It would require that every FBI agent, every intel agencies and every law enforcement personnel were in on it.

It would require that the Governor and mayor of new York were in on it. The Mayor of Washington DC would have to be in on it. This includes numerous members of their staffs.

The Air Force, Air  National Guard and Army would have to be in on it as well as Navy and Marine Corps Air Units. This would be high ranking officers all the way down to privates.

Someone had to plant the explosives and prepare the buildings. Security at those buildings as well as supervisory staff would have to be in on it. It would require that general public that worked and passed through those buildings would all have to be blind stupid or in on it.

The simple fact that some people claim to have seen debris and others claim not to at the Pentagon destroys your claim that no air craft hit. The missing air craft, passengers and crew further undermine your claim.

No one can tell us what kind of missile could have done the damage caused at the Pentagon. If it were loaded with explosives it would have an entirely different signature then the holes present at the building. If it were not loaded with explosives it would have to have been a hardened reinforced missile with armor and a VERY large missile indeed.

Experts HAVE explained what happened at the towers, NUMEROUS, credible experts with no axe to grind. As well as investigators involved in researching what happened.

Then we have the crack pot claims no terrorists were involved. That the supposed men the Government says did it never existed. Which brings us back to how did the conspirators find suicidal members to hijack the aircraft and plow them into at least 2 buildings. And how come the Pennsylvania passengers and the Washington DC passengers that called on cell phones did not tell us they were a bunch of white men.

This requires that Foreign Governments be involved in the cover up like Germany and requires new agencies of the US Government besides the ones already listed to be involved.

What happened to your claim, Eots, that our elected representatives all knew or most knew and were to afraid to do or say anything because of the vast secret society that really rules the world?

The sheer number of people that would have to be involved in a cover up, not to mention those involved in the actual attack make it so unlikely that no one has talked after 8 years as to boggle the mind.

NONE of your "experts" were involved in any way in the investigation. They have had no access to the information the investigators had. No on ground first hand exposure to the evidence or lack there of, of what happened.

We know when Bush farts in his sleep but all these people have been kept silent all these years?


----------



## MichaelCollins (Sep 16, 2008)

All the conspiracy theorists are nuts.... 

Just ignore them.

We all know that BUSHTEAM allowed 911... we can suspect that they were involved in the operation...but we can be damn sure that they knew it was going to happen..

the timing would suggest that they were deeply involved..


----------



## jillian (Sep 16, 2008)

MichaelCollins said:


> All the conspiracy theorists are nuts....
> 
> Just ignore them.
> 
> ...



We "all know"???

I'd suggest that your standard for "knowing" something is fairly low.


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## glockmail (Sep 16, 2008)

MichaelCollins said:


> All the conspiracy theorists are nuts....
> 
> Just ignore them.
> 
> ...


  Of course, that would require a very large number of people involved in a conspiracy. Due to delays by Al Gore and foot dragging by Democrats in the Senate, many of Bush's Director-level staff were old Clinton appointees; his political enemies. They would have to be part of the conspiracy as well.


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## MichaelCollins (Sep 16, 2008)

glockmail said:


> Of course, that would require a very large number of people involved in a conspiracy. Due to delays by Al Gore and foot dragging by Democrats in the Senate, many of Bush's Director-level staff were old Clinton appointees; his political enemies. They would have to be part of the conspiracy as well.





How can you be so ignorant about your own nation?

Bushteam is largely Cheney and the gang....and of course Bush senior.

Those who were involved in 911 are purely defence/CIA operatives....Pentagon involved without doubt.

Now when i say involved... i mean that they inspired islamic terrorism..they nurtured it...and they controlled it....

They wanted a 911...and they allowed it to happen.


so u see u are quite wrong..... a very small number of americans needed to be involved.


----------



## glockmail (Sep 16, 2008)

MichaelCollins said:


> How can you be so ignorant about your own nation?
> 
> Bushteam is largely Cheney and the gang....and of course Bush senior.
> 
> ...



Wow not only are you the biggest asshole on the board you're a dumbass and a kook.


----------



## DiveCon (Sep 16, 2008)

glockmail said:


> Wow not only are you the biggest asshole on the board you're a dumbass and a kook.


come on, this guy claimed there was no religion in europe, that alone should tell everyone that he is completely out of touch with reality


----------



## glockmail (Sep 16, 2008)

DiveCon said:


> come on, this guy claimed there was no religion in europe, that alone should tell everyone that he is completely out of touch with reality


No shit? Well that confirms it then.


----------



## MichaelCollins (Sep 16, 2008)

DiveCon said:


> come on, this guy claimed there was no religion in europe, that alone should tell everyone that he is completely out of touch with reality



So you think that there is religion in Europe?

Is that from your vast experience of living here?

Religion died many years ago in Europe... there are as i  have said before...ceremonial remnants...but it plays no role in the everyday lives of the vast majority of Europeans..from Italy to Germany to France to Spain to the UK.

Most Europeans are pretty educated these days... Religion can only prosper in third world backwaters... it revels in ignorance.


----------



## Uknow_me72 (Sep 16, 2008)

I want you all to know that you are allowing this. You have relinquished your authority and power over to the government. Your voice doesn't count with them.

Do you live in England and watch the camera's and call the cops on the people you see breaking the law? Are you policing yourself for them?

Look in the mirror and ask yourself what have you done to prevent this from happening again? Did you watch the terror alerts and report every Arab in your neighbor hood and Arab that entered an airplane. Did you allow new laws to be put in place so your world will not be destroyed again?

What happened now, the stock markets crashed, housing markets, but you do not know how it has happened, regular people like you and me, we buy things, we spend our whole pay checks every time. We stimulate the economy but some how it just keeps going down.

Time to wake up, that market ticker that you see is a fraud, all they do is change the number and take peoples money.

Oil is renable, you use it, more is created. There is no shortage they just raise they price.

The money that goes in to oil and war never comes back into the economy, they are just draining it until you have to depend on the government to eat.

Why do we have to go out and collect fuckin piece of paper to get food...

What are we idiots? Everyone watch the movie idocracy and you will see exactly the world you live in today. 

That is the illusion while the trick is being done some where else.

EOTS - Smack them all again, maybe they'll listen now.


----------



## eots (Sep 16, 2008)

Jarvis said:


> WOW!  all I can say was I never in a million years thought that there were this many people out of there mind.  Was I the only person that watched the planes fly into the buildings?  Was I the only person that found out about the "Let's Roll" on the last call home made on PA flight right before they took over the highjackers and crashed the plane into the field?



and any of this is relevant why ?


----------



## RetiredGySgt (Sep 16, 2008)

Uknow_me72 said:


> I want you all to know that you are allowing this. You have relinquished your authority and power over to the government. Your voice doesn't count with them.
> 
> Do you live in England and watch the camera's and call the cops on the people you see breaking the law? Are you policing yourself for them?
> 
> ...



Remind us about that Earthquake again?


----------



## Uknow_me72 (Sep 16, 2008)

RetiredGySgt said:


> Remind us about that Earthquake again?



Not a problem, It did happen as it was told. I have advised that it will happen anyways just not on the timing that I and a few others seen it to.

Now if you would like to go back and read the rest of what was said along with that Earthquake then you will see that it is all commiing True and has.

If you are going to wait and not look at what else has happened that was stated then I can't help a blind man out.

.......

Understand the power of prayer changes prophecy when enough pray for a different out come.


----------



## RetiredGySgt (Sep 16, 2008)

Uknow_me72 said:


> Not a problem, It did happen as it was told. I have advised that it will happen anyways just not on the timing that I and a few others seen it to.
> 
> Now if you would like to go back and read the rest of what was said along with that Earthquake then you will see that it is all commiing True and has.
> 
> ...



You stated that a massive Earthquake would occur in the SE Asia area in the month of July. You claimed this would prove you were some kind of seer and could tell us all about the facts of life and reality. 

Remind me again? Was this Earthquake covered up? Was it just not reported in the news?

Just admit you were wrong. You and the guy on the street corner with the sign saying " The End is Near" are one and the same.


----------



## LA RAM FAN (Sep 16, 2008)

glockmail said:


> For every Richard Gage (no education or experience in structural or forensic engineering) you bring up I can link to 100's of structural engineers who disagree with his emotion-laced findings, including Gene Corley (BS civil engineering, MS structural engineering, PhD structural engineering, licensed in 18 states and chartered in the UK).



yeah lets take a look at those corrupted a -holes bank accounts.I guarantee they have been paid off to say what they want the american people to hear.Besides I'll take the word over firefighters who were there who in the fire engineering magazine called the 9/11 investigation a half baked farce making comments like-those people had no interest in finding out the truth.Thats a joke saying those buildings collapsed due to fire.I have put out buildings before and have dealt with buildings that went down due to explosives going off.I know the difference between the sound of a buliding collapsing from  just a mere collapse and explosives,and those were explosives going off.anybody else who says otherwise is a damn liar.Those were not the exact words of the firefighters of course but very similiar.They DID say the investigation was a half baked farce for sure.I'll take the words over firefighters that know the difference between explosions and a mere collapse over this corrupt Gene Corley guy who wasnt there, anyday of the year.


----------



## dilloduck (Sep 16, 2008)

9/11 inside job said:


> yeah lets take a look at those corrupted a -holes bank accounts.I guarantee they have been paid off to say what they want the american people to hear.Besides I'll take the word over firefighters who were there who in the fire engineering magazine called the 9/11 investigation a half baked farce making comments like-those people had no interest in finding out the truth.Thats a joke saying those buildings collapsed due to fire.I have put out buildings before and have dealt with buildings that went down due to explosives going off.I know the difference between the sound of a buliding collapsing from  just a mere collapse and explosives,and those were explosives going off.anybody else who says otherwise is a damn liar.Those were not the exact words of the firefighters of course but very similiar.They DID say the investigation was a half baked farce for sure.I'll take the words over firefighters that know the difference between explosions and a mere collapse over this corrupt Gene Corley guy who wasnt there, anyday of the year.



Why bother with flying planes into the WTC ?


----------



## DiveCon (Sep 16, 2008)

dilloduck said:


> Why bother with flying planes into the WTC ?


exactly, you run the risk of damaging the wires to the explosives
if you have all these buildings wired, why bother with the planes, just blow them up and blame the terrorists


----------



## MichaelCollins (Sep 16, 2008)

DiveCon said:


> exactly, you run the risk of damaging the wires to the explosives
> if you have all these buildings wired, why bother with the planes, just blow them up and blame the terrorists



Why dont you have a "we remember bomb and hide"????

Why are you so selective about remembering victims of terrorism?

Do you think it makes you appear to be patriotic?? is that it?


----------



## dilloduck (Sep 16, 2008)

DiveCon said:


> exactly, you run the risk of damaging the wires to the explosives
> if you have all these buildings wired, why bother with the planes, just blow them up and blame the terrorists



screws em up everytime--not like they need any help or anything


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## DiveCon (Sep 16, 2008)

MichaelCollins said:


> Why dont you have a "we remember bomb and hide"????
> 
> Why are you so selective about remembering victims of terrorism?
> 
> Do you think it makes you appear to be patriotic?? is that it?


you are a moron and an asshole, what you think and say means NOTHING to me


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## dilloduck (Sep 16, 2008)

DiveCon said:


> you are a moron and an asshole, what you think and say means NOTHING to me



He does owe us a few bucks for entertaining him tho !
but we gotta look out--he's gotta QUEEN ! 
Whew--speaking of fairy tales.


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## MichaelCollins (Sep 16, 2008)

dilloduck said:


> *He does owe us a few bucks for entertaining him tho !*but we gotta look out--he's gotta QUEEN !
> Whew--speaking of fairy tales.




I agree.... we dont have such limited characters here in the UK... .imagine in this day and age...people believing in the Bible...you just couldnt make it up.

But then americans like to keep things very very simple.


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## DManInAZ (Sep 16, 2008)

MichaelCollins said:


> I agree.... we dont have such limited characters here in the UK... .imagine in this day and age...people believing in the Bible...you just couldnt make it up.
> 
> But then americans like to keep things very very simple.



I could be mistaken (you'd have to ask my wife just how often), but i'm not sure that you were being agreed with.


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## eots (Sep 17, 2008)

dilloduck said:


> screws em up everytime--not like they need any help or anything






In his new exposé of the National Security Agency entitled Body of Secrets, author James Bamford highlights  a set of proposals on Cuba by the Joint Chiefs of Staff codenamed OPERATION NORTHWOODS.  This document, titled Justification for U.S. Military Intervention in Cuba was provided by the JCS to Secretary of Defense Robert McNamara on March 13, 1962, as the key component of Northwoods.  Written in response to a request from the Chief of the Cuba Project, Col. Edward Lansdale, the Top Secret memorandum describes U.S. plans to covertly engineer various pretexts that would justify a U.S. invasion of Cuba.  These proposals - part of a secret anti-Castro program known as Operation Mongoose - included staging the assassinations of Cubans living in the United States, developing a fake Communist Cuban terror campaign in the Miami area, in other Florida cities and even in Washington, including sink[ing] a boatload of Cuban refugees (real or simulated), faking a Cuban airforce attack on a civilian jetliner, and concocting a Remember the Maine incident by blowing up a U.S. ship in Cuban waters and then blaming the incident on Cuban sabotage.  Bamford himself writes that Operation Northwoods may be the most corrupt plan ever created by the U.S. government.


[PDF] Operation NORTHWOODS  File Format: PDF/Adobe Acrobat - View as HTML
Page 1. Page 2. Page 3. Page 4. Page 5. Page 6. Page 7. Page 8. Page 9. Page 10. Page 11. Page 12. Page 13. Page 14. Page 15.
www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/news/20010430/doc1.pdf - 


Operation Northwoods

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IygchZRJVXM]YouTube - Operation Northwoods[/ame]


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## RetiredGySgt (Sep 17, 2008)

eots said:


> In his new exposé of the National Security Agency entitled Body of Secrets, author James Bamford highlights  a set of proposals on Cuba by the Joint Chiefs of Staff codenamed OPERATION NORTHWOODS.  This document, titled Justification for U.S. Military Intervention in Cuba was provided by the JCS to Secretary of Defense Robert McNamara on March 13, 1962, as the key component of Northwoods.  Written in response to a request from the Chief of the Cuba Project, Col. Edward Lansdale, the Top Secret memorandum describes U.S. plans to covertly engineer various pretexts that would justify a U.S. invasion of Cuba.  These proposals - part of a secret anti-Castro program known as Operation Mongoose - included staging the assassinations of Cubans living in the United States, developing a fake Communist Cuban terror campaign in the Miami area, in other Florida cities and even in Washington, including sink[ing] a boatload of Cuban refugees (real or simulated), faking a Cuban airforce attack on a civilian jetliner, and concocting a Remember the Maine incident by blowing up a U.S. ship in Cuban waters and then blaming the incident on Cuban sabotage.  Bamford himself writes that Operation Northwoods may be the most corrupt plan ever created by the U.S. government.
> 
> 
> [PDF] Operation NORTHWOODS  File Format: PDF/Adobe Acrobat - View as HTML
> ...



I bet we have plans for resisting Alien Invasions too. Or an attack By Canada. Let me know when those happen.


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## DiveCon (Sep 17, 2008)

eots said:


> In his new exposé of the National Security Agency entitled Body of Secrets, author James Bamford highlights  a set of proposals on Cuba by the Joint Chiefs of Staff codenamed OPERATION NORTHWOODS.  This document, titled Justification for U.S. Military Intervention in Cuba was provided by the JCS to Secretary of Defense Robert McNamara on March 13, 1962, as the key component of Northwoods.  Written in response to a request from the Chief of the Cuba Project, Col. Edward Lansdale, the Top Secret memorandum describes U.S. plans to covertly engineer various pretexts that would justify a U.S. invasion of Cuba.  These proposals - part of a secret anti-Castro program known as Operation Mongoose - included staging the assassinations of Cubans living in the United States, developing a fake Communist Cuban terror campaign in the Miami area, in other Florida cities and even in Washington, including sink[ing] a boatload of Cuban refugees (real or simulated), faking a Cuban airforce attack on a civilian jetliner, and concocting a Remember the Maine incident by blowing up a U.S. ship in Cuban waters and then blaming the incident on Cuban sabotage.  Bamford himself writes that Operation Northwoods may be the most corrupt plan ever created by the U.S. government.
> 
> 
> [PDF] Operation NORTHWOODS  File Format: PDF/Adobe Acrobat - View as HTML
> ...


you morons keep bringing up Op Northwoods as proof that the US government would do a false flag Op against its own people where Americans would die
except, that shows that it WOULDNT happen because it was rejected and the originator of the plan was FIRED
and even in THAT REJECTED plan, no Americans were to die
this shows you dont even READ what you link to


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## eots (Sep 17, 2008)

it was approved to higest levels before it was rejected you have no facts and as far as the government killing its citizens goes


CIA MIND CONTROL EXPERIMENTS
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MSOOK3tocTk]YouTube - CIA MIND CONTROL EXPERIMENTS[/ame]


U.S. Gov video bio weapon test in New york etc.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DG6GMNd-xN0]YouTube - U.S. Gov video bio weapon test in New york etc.[/ame]




False Flag Terrorism

"False flag terrorism" occurs when elements within a government stage a secret operation whereby government forces pretend to be a targeted enemy while attacking their own forces or people. The attack is then falsely blamed on the enemy in order to justify going to war against that enemy. Or as Wikipedia defines it: 

False flag operations are covert operations conducted by governments, corporations, or other organizations, which are designed to appear as if they are being carried out by other entities. The name is derived from the military concept of flying false colors; that is, flying the flag of a country other than one's own. False flag operations are not limited to war and counter-insurgency operations, and have been used in peace-time; for example, during Italy's strategy of tension.
The term comes from the old days of wooden ships, when one ship would hang the flag of its enemy before attacking another ship in its own navy. Because the enemy's flag was hung instead of the flag of the real country of the attacking ship, it was called a "false flag" attack. 

There are many examples of false flag attacks through history. For example, it is widely known that the Nazis, in Operation Himmler, faked attacks on their own people and resources which they blamed on the Poles, to justify the invasion of Poland. And it has now been persuasively argued  as shown, for example, in this History Channel video  that Nazis set fire to their own parliament, the Reichstag, and blamed that fire on others. The Reichstag fire was the watershed event which justified Hitler's seizure of power and suspension of liberties. 

And in the early 1950s, agents of an Israeli terrorist cell operating in Egypt planted bombs in several buildings, including U.S. diplomatic facilities, then left behind "evidence" implicating the Arabs as the culprits (one of the bombs detonated prematurely, allowing the Egyptians to identify the bombers). Israel's Defense Minister was brought down by the scandal, along with the entire Israeli government. Click here for verification.

The Russian KGB apparently conducted a wave of bombings in Russia in order to justify war against Chechnya and put Vladimir Putin into power (see also this short essay and this report). And the Turkish government has been caught bombing its own and blaming it on a rebel group in order to justify a crackdown on that group. Muslim governments also play this game. For example, the well-respected former Indonesian president claimed that their government had a role in the Bali bombings.

This sounds nuts, right?  You've never heard of this "false flag terrorism," where a government attacks its own people then blames others in order to justify its goals, right?  And you are skeptical of the statements discussed above? Please take a look at these historical quotes:

"If tyranny and oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy." - U.S. President James Madison

"Why of course the people don't want war ... But after all it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship ... Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country." - Hermann Goering, Nazi leader.

What about the U.S.?

Is it logical to assume that, even if other countries have carried out false flag operations (especially horrible regimes such as, say, the Nazis or Stalin), the U.S. has never done so? Well, as documented by the New York Times, Iranians working for the C.I.A. in the 1950's posed as Communists and staged bombings in Iran in order to turn the country against its democratically-elected president (see also this essay).

And, as confirmed by a former Italian Prime Minister, an Italian judge, and the former head of Italian counterintelligence, NATO, with the help of the Pentagon and CIA, carried out terror bombings in Italy and blamed communists, in order to rally peoples support for their governments in Europe in their fight against communism.  As one participant in this formerly-secret program stated: "You had to attack civilians, people, women, children, innocent people, unknown people far removed from any political game. The reason was quite simple. They were supposed to force these people, the Italian public, to turn to the state to ask for greater security."

Moreover, recently declassified U.S. Government documents show that in the 1960s, the U.S. Joint Chiefs of Staff signed off on a plan code-named Operation Northwoods to blow up American airplanes (using an elaborate plan involving the switching of airplanes), and also to commit terrorist acts on American soil, and then to blame it on the Cubans in order to justify an invasion of Cuba. The operation was not carried out only because the Kennedy administration refused to implement these Pentagon plans. 

For lots more on the astonishing Operation Northwoods, see the ABC news report; the official declassified documents; and watch this interview with James Bamford, the former Washington Investigative Producer for ABC's World News Tonight with Peter Jennings. One quote from the Northwoods documents states: "A 'Remember the Maine' incident could be arranged: We could blow up a US ship in Guantanamo Bay and blame Cuba. Casualty lists in US newspapers would cause a helpful wave of national indignation." 

What about Al-Qaeda? 

You might think Al-Qaeda is different. It is very powerful, organized, and out to get us, right? Consider this Los Angeles Times article, reviewing a BBC documentary entitled The Power of Nightmares, which shows that the threat from Al Qaeda has been vastly overblown (and see this article on who is behind the hype). And former National Security Adviser Zbigniew Brzezinski testified to the Senate that the war on terror is "a mythical historical narrative." 

And did you know that the FBI had penetrated the cell which carried out the 1993 World Trade Center bombing, but had -- at the last minute -- cancelled the plan to have its FBI infiltrator substitute fake powder for real explosives, against the infiltrator's strong wishes (summary version is free; full version is pay-per-view)? See also this TV news report. 

Have you heard that the CIA is alleged to have met with Bin Laden two months before 9/11? Did you know that years after 9/11 the FBI first stated that it did not have sufficient evidence to prosecute Bin Laden for 9/11? The agency apparently still does not have any hard evidence linking Bin Laden to the crime (see also this partial confirmation by the Washington Post). And did you see the statement by the CIA commander in charge of the capture that the U.S. let Bin Laden escape from Afghanistan? 

Have you heard that the anthrax attacks -- which were sent along with notes purportedly written by Islamic terrorists -- used a weaponized anthrax strain from the top U.S. bioweapons facility? Indeed, top bioweapons experts have stated that the anthrax attack may have been a CIA test "gone wrong." For more on this, see this article by a former NSA and naval intelligence officer and this statement by a distinguished law professor and bioterror expert (and this one). 

It is also interesting that the only Congress-members mailed anthrax letters were key Democrats, and that the attacks occurred one week before passage of the freedom-curtailing PATRIOT Act, which seems to have scared them and the rest of Congress into passing that act without even reading it. And though it may be a coincidence, White House staff began taking the anti-anthrax medicine before the Anthrax attacks occurred. 

Even General William Odom, former director of the National Security Agency, said "By any measure the US has long used terrorism. In 78-79 the Senate was trying to pass a law against international terrorism, yet in every version they produced, the lawyers said the US would be in violation" (the audio is here).

Why Does This Matter?

Please read what the following highly respected people are saying: 

Former prominent Republican U.S. Congressman and CIA official Bob Barr stated that the U.S. is close to becoming a totalitarian society and that the current administration is using fear to try to ensure that this happens. Current Republican U.S. Congressman Ron Paul stated that the government "is determined to have martial law." He also said a contrived "Gulf of Tonkin-type incident may occur to gain popular support for an attack on Iran." Former National Security Adviser Brzezinski told the Senate that a terrorist act might be carried out in the U.S. and falsely blamed on Iran to justify war against that nation. 

The former Assistant Secretary of the Treasury in the Reagan administration, Paul Craig Roberts, who is called the "Father of Reaganomics" and is a former editor and columnist for the Wall Street Journal, BusinessWeek, and Scripps Howard News Service, has said: 

"Ask yourself: Would a government that has lied us into two wars and is working to lie us into an attack on Iran shrink from staging 'terrorist' attacks in order to remove opposition to its agenda? ... If the Bush administration wants to continue its wars in the Middle East and to entrench the 'unitary executive' at home, it will have to conduct some false flag operations that will both frighten and anger the American people and make them accept Bush's declaration of 'national emergency' and the return of the draft. Alternatively, the administration could simply allow any real terrorist plot to proceed without hindrance." 

(see also this even stronger statement).

Retired 27-year CIA analyst Ray McGovern, who prepared and presented Presidential Daily Briefings and served as a high-level analyst for several presidents, stated that if there was another major attack in the U.S., it would lead to martial law. He went on to say: 

"We have to be careful, if somebody does this kind of provocation - big violent explosions of some kind - we have to not take the word of the masters there in Washington that this was some terrorist event because it could well be a provocation allowing them, or seemingly to allow them to get what they want." 

The former CIA analyst would not put it past the government to "play fast and loose" with terror alerts and warnings and even terrorist events in order to rally people behind the flag. 

False Flag Operations


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## dilloduck (Sep 17, 2008)

eots said:


> it was approved to higest levels before it was rejected you have no facts and as far as the government killing its citizens goes
> 
> 
> CIA MIND CONTROL EXPERIMENTS
> ...



but why bother to go to the trouble of flying planes into them ?


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## eots (Sep 17, 2008)

why dont you ask the creators of the northwoods plan..that question  ..but i will take you understand the goverment is capable of such plans,has used false flag terror in the past and is capable of killing its own people


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## dilloduck (Sep 17, 2008)

eots said:


> why dont you ask the creators of the northwoods plan..that question  ..but i will take you understand the goverment is capable of such plans,has used false flag terror in the past and is capable of killing its own people



cuz it doesn't say anything about planes---whose idea was that ?


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## eots (Sep 17, 2008)

northwoods indeed speaks of planes ,,,read  it again


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## eots (Sep 17, 2008)

In response to a request for pretexts for military intervention by the Chief of Operations of the Cuba Project, Brig. Gen. Edward Lansdale, the document lists methods (with, in some cases, outlined plans) the authors believed would garner public and international support for U.S. military intervention in Cuba. These are staged attacks purporting to be of Cuban origin.

"1. Since it would seem desirable to use legitimate provocation as the basis for US military intervention in Cuba a cover and deception plan, to include requisite preliminary actions such as has been developed in response to Task 33 c, could be executed as an initial effort to provoke Cuban reactions. Harassment plus deceptive actions to convince the Cubans of imminent invasion would be emphasized. Our military posture throughout execution of the plan will allow a rapid change from exercise to intervention if Cuban response justifies.

2. A series of well coordinated incidents will be planned to take place in and around Guantanamo to give genuine appearance of being done by hostile Cuban forces.

a. Incidents to establish a credible attack (not in chronological order):

(1) Start rumors (many). Use clandestine radio.

(2) Land friendly Cubans in uniform "over-the-fence" to stage attack on base.

(3) Capture Cuban (friendly) saboteurs inside the base.

(4) Start riots near the base main gate (friendly Cubans).

(5) Blow up ammunition inside the base; start fires.

(6) Burn aircraft on air base (sabotage).

(7) Lob mortar shells from outside of base into base. Some damage to installations.

(8) Capture assault teams approaching from the sea or vicinity of Guantanamo City.

(9) Capture militia group which storms the base.

(10) Sabotage ship in harbor; large fires -- napthalene.

(11) Sink ship near harbor entrance. Conduct funerals for mock-victims (may be in lieu of (10)).

b. United States would respond by executing offensive operations to secure water and power supplies, destroying artillery and mortar emplacements which threaten the base.

c. Commence large scale United States military operations.

3. A "Remember the Maine" incident could be arranged in several forms:

a. We could blow up a US ship in Guantanamo Bay and blame Cuba.

b. We could blow up a drone (unmanned) vessel anywhere in the Cuban waters. We could arrange to cause such incident in the vicinity of Havana or Santiago as a spectacular result of Cuban attack from the air or sea, or both. The presence of Cuban planes or ships merely investigating the intent of the vessel could be fairly compelling evidence that the ship was taken under attack. The nearness to Havana or Santiago would add credibility especially to those people that might have heard the blast or have seen the fire. The US could follow up with an air/sea rescue operation covered by US fighters to "evacuate" remaining members of the non-existent crew. Casualty lists in US newspapers would cause a helpful wave of national indignation.

4. We could develop a Communist Cuban terror campaign in the Miami area, in other Florida cities and even in Washington.

The terror campaign could be pointed at refugees seeking haven in the United States. We could sink a boatload of Cubans enroute to Florida (real or simulated). We could foster attempts on lives of Cuban refugees in the United States even to the extent of wounding in instances to be widely publicized. Exploding a few plastic bombs in carefully chosen spots, the arrest of Cuban agents and the release of prepared documents substantiating Cuban involvement, also would be helpful in projecting the idea of an irresponsible government.

5. A "Cuban-based, Castro-supported" filibuster could be simulated against a neighboring Caribbean nation (in the vein of the 14th of June invasion of the Dominican Republic). We know that Castro is backing subversive efforts clandestinely against Haiti, Dominican Republic, Guatemala, and Nicaragua at present and possible others. These efforts can be magnified and additional ones contrived for exposure. For example, advantage can be taken of the sensitivity of the Dominican Air Force to intrusions within their national air space. "Cuban" B-26 or C-46 type aircraft could make cane-burning raids at night. Soviet Bloc incendiaries could be found. This could be coupled with "Cuban" messages to the Communist underground in the Dominican Republic and "Cuban" shipments of arm which would be found, or intercepted, on the beach.

6. Use of MIG type aircraft by US pilots could provide additional provocation. Harassment of civil air, attacks on surface shipping and destruction of US military drone aircraft by MIG type planes would be useful as complementary actions. An F-86 properly painted would convince air passengers that they saw a Cuban MIG, especially if the pilot of the transport were to announce such fact. The primary drawback to this suggestion appears to be the security risk inherent in obtaining or modifying an aircraft. However, reasonable copies of the MIG could be produced from US resources in about three months.

7. Hijacking attempts against civil air and surface craft should appear to continue as harassing measures condoned by the government of Cuba. Concurrently, genuine defections of Cuban civil and military air and surface craft should be encouraged.

8. It is possible to create an incident which will demonstrate convincingly that a Cuban aircraft has attacked and shot down a chartered civil airliner enroute from the United States to Jamaica, Guatemala, Panama or Venezuela. The destination would be chosen only to cause the flight plan route to cross Cuba. The passengers could be a group of college students off on a holiday or any grouping of persons with a common interest to support chartering a non-scheduled flight.

a. An aircraft at Eglin AFB would be painted and numbered as an exact duplicate for a civil registered aircraft belonging to a CIA proprietary organization in the Miami area. At a designated time the duplicate would be substituted for the actual civil aircraft and would be loaded with the selected passengers, all boarded under carefully prepared aliases. The actual registered aircraft would be converted to a drone.

b. Take off times of the drone aircraft and the actual aircraft will be scheduled to allow a rendezvous south of Florida. From the rendezvous point the passenger-carrying aircraft will descend to minimum altitude and go directly into an auxiliary field at Eglin AFB where arrangements will have been made to evacuate the passengers and return the aircraft to its original status. The drone aircraft meanwhile will continue to fly the filed flight plan. When over Cuba the drone will being transmitting on the international distress frequency a "MAY DAY" message stating he is under attack by Cuban MIG aircraft. The transmission will be interrupted by destruction of the aircraft which will be triggered by radio signal. This will allow ICAO radio stations in the Western Hemisphere to tell the US what has happened to the aircraft instead of the US trying to "sell" the incident.

9. It is possible to create an incident which will make it appear that Communist Cuban MIGs have destroyed a USAF aircraft over international waters in an unprovoked attack.

a. Approximately 4 or 5 F-101 aircraft will be dispatched in trail from Homestead AFB, Florida, to the vicinity of Cuba. Their mission will be to reverse course and simulate fakir aircraft for an air defense exercise in southern Florida. These aircraft would conduct variations of these flights at frequent Intervals. Crews would be briefed to remain at least 12 miles off the Cuban coast; however, they would be required to carry live ammunition in the event that hostile actions were taken by the Cuban MIGs.

b. On one such flight, a pre-briefed pilot would fly tail-end Charley at considerable interval between aircraft. While near the Cuban Island this pilot would broadcast that he had been jumped by MIGs and was going down. No other calls would be made. The pilot would then fly directly west at extremely low altitude and land at a secure base, an Eglin auxiliary. The aircraft would be met by the proper people, quickly stored and given a new tail number. The pilot who had performed the mission under an alias, would resume his proper identity and return to his normal place of business. The pilot and aircraft would then have disappeared.

c. At precisely the same time that the aircraft was presumably shot down a submarine or small surface craft would disburse F-101 parts, parachute, etc., at approximately 15 to 20 miles off the Cuban coast and depart. The pilots returning to Homestead would have a true story as far as they knew. Search ships and aircraft could be dispatched and parts of aircraft found."



Operation Northwoods - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## dilloduck (Sep 17, 2008)

eots said:


> northwoods indeed speaks of planes ,,,read  it again



Flying into the WTC ?  sorry--don't see that.


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## eots (Sep 17, 2008)

dildofuck...


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## dilloduck (Sep 17, 2008)

eots said:


> dildofuck...



hey eots--get it anyway you can---don't be ashamed !


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## eots (Sep 17, 2008)

get it any way you can huh..that's about what i would expect as your philosophy,,not surprising


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## dilloduck (Sep 17, 2008)

eots said:


> get it any way you can huh..that's about what i would expect as your philosophy,,not surprising



ok--now go back to your bombs and stuff. Let me know when you find out why they bothered to crash jets all over the place.


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## eots (Sep 17, 2008)

sure and you can answer this

Why didn't jets intercept the airliners since they 
had numerous warnings of terrorist attacks?

Where are the flight recorders? 

 How were all hijackers identified just 2 days 
after the attack? 

Why do none of the names appear on the passenger list


How was it possible the Pentagon was hit 1 hour and 20 minutes after the attacks began? Why was there no response from Andrews Air Force Base, just 10 miles away and home to Air National Guard units charged with defending the skies above the nation''s capital? 

How could three buildings all fall semetricaly..in a fashion that only occurs with percise controled failure..the will of ali ?


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## dilloduck (Sep 17, 2008)

eots said:


> sure and you can answer this
> 
> Why didn't jets intercept the airliners since they
> had numerous warnings of terrorist attacks?
> ...




Still don't know I see--


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## Care4all (Sep 17, 2008)

eots said:


> sure and you can answer this
> 
> Why didn't jets intercept the airliners since they
> had numerous warnings of terrorist attacks?
> ...



personally, i can remember that i thought at the time when all the news stations on 9/11 named the person who headed this up as Bin Laden....which meant our gvt gave the media this info to report on 911, with all hijackers being named and pictured less than 48 hours after they attacked i even asked my husband, ''Everyone on the planes are dead, HOW could our gvt name WITH PHOTO IDS these 19 hijackers sooooo QUICKLY unless they had been following them and were aware of them?  And if they were aware of them, WHY DIDN'T THEY STOP THEM?''

THOSE really were my immediate thoughts....and i still was living in my old peaceful cocoon ....when i was politically and gvt ignorant.....before message boards.....  before my awakening....the Happy Days of my life!!!  lollollol  But it still seemed suspicious that the pics of all hijackers were in press 2 days later to me....  

i don't want to read this whole thread....but do you have proof that these hijacker names were not on the passenger list???  because i remember video being shown of Atta at the security gate in Bangor maine heading to new york?

care


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## MichaelCollins (Sep 17, 2008)

eots said:


> it was approved to higest levels before it was rejected you have no facts and as far as the government killing its citizens goes
> 
> 
> CIA MIND CONTROL EXPERIMENTS
> ...





Fortunately every single first world nation is aware of this...and the majority of educated people are well aware that BUSHTEAM played a role in 911.

However...the US people have been controlled through dumming down for so long now...that false flag attacks are very possible there.

If you have such a large constituency of uneducated, untravelled and ignorant people ..as the US clearly does... it is very easy to create images of the big bad bogeyman foreigner...The hillbillies drenched in their religious fear and hatred extremism...will lap it up.

I expect another one to justify the Trillion dollar US defence budget very soon.


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## jla1178 (Sep 18, 2008)

MichaelCollins said:


> Fortunately every single first world nation is aware of this...and the majority of educated people are well aware that BUSHTEAM played a role in 911.
> 
> However...the US people have been controlled through dumming down for so long now...that false flag attacks are very possible there.
> 
> ...


----------



## Jarvis (Sep 18, 2008)

Wow, so the Catholic church isn't important in Italy?  That would be news to the thousands of people that flock to the vatican everyday?  And what makes you an expert on religion in Europe?  When I was in Germany every week there churches were filled, so thats two of the biggest countries in Europe, and from my perspective they are still thriving.


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## MichaelCollins (Sep 18, 2008)

Jarvis said:


> Wow, so the Catholic church isn't important in Italy?  That would be news to the thousands of people that flock to the vatican everyday?  And what makes you an expert on religion in Europe?  When I was in Germany every week there churches were filled, so thats two of the biggest countries in Europe, and from my perspective they are still thriving.



I have lived in Italy for 3 years... never met one person who attended church..

The vatican is a tourist attraction mate... it will get 1000s every day.

That is what religion is in Europe... a ceremonial remnant... pretty but no one believes in any of the associated nonsense... lovely churches though.

Germany 5% attendence ..Italy 4%.

Only the US has a serious percentage of jesus freaks.

Also those catholics who do remain..mostly over 70 years of age... its a nice religion.... US christianity is totally insane..evangelical bible bashing extreme freakiness.


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## Silence (Sep 18, 2008)

MichaelCollins said:


> I am pretty convinced that BUSHTEAM were well aware that 911 was going to happen. Not sure if they were actually involved in the planning and execution ..but it is pretty obvious they knew about it and welcomed it...
> 
> It cannot be a coincidence that as soon as BUSHTEAM get into power..an event occurs which allows them free licence to carry out their long intended and long planned invasion of Iraq....and also to create a new imaginary enemy....and to create a large proportion of the US public with FEAR and hatred.
> 
> ...



it makes me feel dirty when I agree with you 

I too, think Bush & Co knew about the pending attacks, I also think they choose to ignore it.  All the evidence found by the 9/11 commission indicates such.  

What would make anyone think that they wouldn't view those 3,000 people as collateral damage?  It gave them a rallying point and enabled them to enact some of the most fucked up and unconstitutional practices in modern history.  

The fact that Bush & Co basically let Bin Laden go seems suspicious at least.  add the fact that no one in his administration seems concerned about finding and bringing him to justice and it certainly makes one wonder if there wasn't at least some complacency in the attacks.


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## RetiredGySgt (Sep 18, 2008)

Silence said:


> it makes me feel dirty when I agree with you
> 
> I too, think Bush & Co knew about the pending attacks, I also think they choose to ignore it.  All the evidence found by the 9/11 commission indicates such.
> 
> ...



Que Twilight Zone music and prepare the tin foil for making hats.


----------



## eots (Sep 18, 2008)

RetiredGySgt said:


> Que Twilight Zone music and prepare the tin foil for making hats.



why are the meds not working for you again rgs..


----------



## Uknow_me72 (Sep 18, 2008)

eots said:


> why are the meds not working for you again rgs..




He was a casualty of Agent Orange in Nam. He can't help it.

Wait, US government doesn't put its own troops in harms way and kill them....

There was a radio malfunction.

http://www1.va.gov/Agentorange/


----------



## jla1178 (Sep 18, 2008)

Uknow_me72 said:


> He was a casualty of Agent Orange in Nam.



Which, of course, was invented by the Illuminati.


----------



## DiveCon (Sep 18, 2008)

jla1178 said:


> Which, of course, was invented by the Illuminati.


and ordered by the masons


----------



## jla1178 (Sep 18, 2008)

DiveCon said:


> and ordered by the masons



Actually, there was no war. That's textbook nonsense. No educated person should believe anything from a textbook.


----------



## Silence (Sep 18, 2008)

RetiredGySgt said:


> Que Twilight Zone music and prepare the tin foil for making hats.



what I've never understood and probably never will understand is the inability to see this administration for the totl fuck ups that they are.  

Why would anyone defend the actions of Bush & Co?  are they that blinded by party loyalty that they refuse to acknowledge the factual evidence that was found?  intelligence warnings of pending attacks were ignored.  there is no getting around that. 

When Bush took office he pulled the plug on anti-terrorist measures that Clinton had enacted such as monitoring funding to terrorist countries.  Then they said TOO MUCH emphasis had been placed on tracking Osama Bin Laden.  

Say what you want, but the TRUTH is the TRUTH no matter how you'd like to believe it's some crazy tin foil hatter's theory.


----------



## dilloduck (Sep 18, 2008)

Silence said:


> what I've never understood and probably never will understand is the inability to see this administration for the totl fuck ups that they are.
> 
> Why would anyone defend the actions of Bush & Co?  are they that blinded by party loyalty that they refuse to acknowledge the factual evidence that was found?  intelligence warnings of pending attacks were ignored.  there is no getting around that.
> 
> ...



so who did it?


----------



## Richard-H (Sep 18, 2008)

DManInAZ said:


> However, on the other side of the coin, how could you ensure that the number of people required to pull this off would stay quiet? It just seems that among those that would have been involved, at least a few would leak something. That is my question.



What do you think they have Guantanamo prison for?


----------



## Uknow_me72 (Sep 18, 2008)

Obviously Agent Orange and all the Chemical Weapons are done on our troops so they can study the effects when they come back.


----------



## dilloduck (Sep 18, 2008)

Uknow_me72 said:


> Obviously Agent Orange and all the Chemical Weapons are done on our troops so they can study the effects when they come back.



exactly


----------



## Care4all (Sep 18, 2008)

my father is battling his third cancer, all attributed to his agent orange exposure while he served in Viet Nam....  

I just find it hard to believe it was used to test the affects on soldiers....i believe it was used with disregard to the health effects but not done on purpose to harm our own soldiers, for goodness sakes uknowme!


----------



## Richard-H (Sep 18, 2008)

My best guess is that Cheney & co. decided that they needed an excuse to invade Afganistan, to they could run a pipline across it. So they contacted Pakistani intelligence and gave them a bunch of Anthrax.  They instructed them to make sure that, whoever they killed, the American Media would know about it.

Pakastani intelligence, in turn gave it to Mohammud Atta, but screwed up the instructions, so he gave orders to send it to 'American Media' literally. Then they sent it to the American media in general, they they sent it to whoever.

In the process, Atta and a few of his followers poisoned themselves in the process, knew they we're dying, so Atta decided to launch the 9/11 attacks.

The plan for the 9/11 attacks had been engineered by Bin Laden & co., but he didn't order them to be executed. Atta did it on his own hook.

Bin Laden decided to follow the old adage "It's better to take the credit than get stuck with the blame".

Everyone that had any knowledge of what really happened, along with Atta's anthrax mailers, was disappeared to Guantanamo prison - along with a bunch of other terrorist suspects and enemy combatants (just to give the place some sort of credibility).

And the rest is history.


----------



## RetiredGySgt (Sep 18, 2008)

Richard-H said:


> My best guess is that Cheney & co. decided that they needed an excuse to invade Afganistan, to they could run a pipline across it. So they contacted Pakistani intelligence and gave them a bunch of Anthrax.  They instructed them to make sure that, whoever they killed, the American Media would know about it.
> 
> Pakastani intelligence, in turn gave it to Mohammud Atta, but screwed up the instructions, so he gave orders to send it to 'American Media' literally. Then they sent it to the American media in general, they they sent it to whoever.
> 
> ...



Looney TUNES time, say do you need a stable supply of Tin Foil? I can probably recommend a source.


----------



## eots (Sep 18, 2008)

RetiredGySgt said:


> Looney TUNES time, say do you need a stable supply of Tin Foil? I can probably recommend a source.



come on rgs we all know it is psychotropic drugs that keep you _stable_
and in denial for fear it will fuel a paranoid episode..its OK old solider


----------



## RetiredGySgt (Sep 18, 2008)

eots said:


> come on rgs we all know it is psychotropic drugs that keep you _stable_
> and in denial for fear it will fuel a paranoid episode..its OK old solider



We all know you and your buddies SHOULD be on drugs for your delusions and paranoia. You have some of the most ignorant rants on this board only followed by those that agree with you. A doctor really can help with that delusional world you live in. Medication can help most people, I believe it is 80 percent, now you could be in the 20 percent, but you will never know till you ask for help.


----------



## eots (Sep 18, 2008)

RetiredGySgt said:


> We all know you and your buddies SHOULD be on drugs for your delusions and paranoia. You have some of the most ignorant rants on this board only followed by those that agree with you. A doctor really can help with that delusional world you live in. Medication can help most people, I believe it is 80 percent, now you could be in the 20 percent, but you will never know till you ask for help.



ah..life in soma city...you have been successfully reprogrammed congratulations !!


----------



## eots (Sep 18, 2008)

what is you dont think I belive DIVECONARTIST..THAT RGS IS ON PSYCOTROPIC MEDICATIONS OR THAT 911 WAS AN INSIDE JOB ???


----------



## DiveCon (Sep 18, 2008)

eots said:


> what is you dont think I belive DIVECONARTIST..THAT RGS IS ON PSYCOTROPIC MEDICATIONS OR THAT 911 WAS AN INSIDE JOB ???


any of this nonsense you post
you just do it for the reaction


----------



## eots (Sep 19, 2008)

that's right scooby-do me and *these men *are just looking for a little attention because we feel intellectually inferior and are bitter that others have had so much success we need to blame it on something...wake the fuck up

*Capt. Edgar Mitchell, U.S. Navy *(ret), BS Industrial Management, BS *Aerontautical Engineering, Doctor of Science, Aeronautics and Astronautics from MIT *&#8211; Pilot and Astronaut.  Sixth man to walk on the moon *(Apollo 14 mission).*  Patrol bomber and attack plane pilot, U.S. Navy.  Test Pilot, Air Test and Evaluation Squadron 5 (VX-5).  Chief of Project Management Division, Navy Field Office for the Manned Orbiting Laboratory Project.  *Graduated first in his class from the Aerospace Research Pilot School, and served as an instructor there.*  Recipient of many awards and honors including the *Presidential Medal of Freedom,* the USN Distinguished Medal and three NASA Group Achievement Awards. Inducted to the Space Hall of Fame in 1979 and the Astronaut Hall of Fame in 1998.  Recipient of honorary doctorates in engineering from New Mexico State University, the University of Akron, Carnegie Mellon University, and a ScD from Embry-Riddle University.  Founder of the Institute of Noetic Sciences. 
Endorser of and proposed Commissioner of a New Investigation into 9/11 as described in the New York City Ballot Initiative 11/08: "Petition to Create a NYC Independent Commission with Subpoena Power to Conduct a Comprehensive and Fact-Driven Investigation of All Relevant Aspects of the Tragic Events of September 11, 2001 and Issue a Report. 

WHEREAS, many New York City voters believe that there remain many unanswered questions critical to establishing the truth about all relevant events leading up to, during and subsequent to the tragic attacks occurring on September 11, 2001 (&#8220;9/11&#8221, and 

WHEREAS, no prior investigation by any New York City agency or any other governmental entity has resulted in the citizens being provided with those critical answers or information necessary to establish the truth about those tragic events, ... 

An independent, temporary New York City commission (the &#8220;Commission&#8221 is hereby created to conduct a comprehensive, factdriven investigation into the events that took place on 9/11, as well as to thoroughly examine related events before and after the attacks, including any activities attempting to hide, cover up, impede or obstruct any investigation into these 9/11 events, following wherever the facts may lead. The Commission shall publish one or more reports of their findings." 

Website: Ed Mitchell 


*Lt. Col. Guy S. Razer, MS Aeronautical Science, U.S. Air Force* (ret) &#8211; Retired U.S. Air Force command fighter pilot.  *Former instructor; U.S. Air Force Fighter Weapons* School and NATO&#8217;s Tactical Leadership Program.  As an Air Force weapons effects expert was responsible for wartime tasking of most appropriate aircraft/munition for target destruction to include steel and concrete superstructures.  Former aeronautical structures flight test engineer with McDonnell Douglas, working on advanced DC-9 autopilot systems and DC-10 flight envelope expansion stress and flutter analysis.  Tactical aircraft flown: General Dynamics F-111 Aardvark fighter/bomber, McDonnell Douglas F-15E Strike Eagle, General Dynamics / Lockheed Martin F-16 Fighting Falcon, McDonnell Douglas F-18 Hornet, Boeing B-1 Bomber, MiG-29 (Russian fighter), and Su-22 (Russian fighter/bomber).  3,000+ fighter hours.  Combat time over Iraq.  20-year Air Force career. 
Statement to this website 3/25/07: "After 4+ years of research since retirement in 2002, I am 100% convinced that the attacks of September 11, 2001 were planned, organized, and committed by treasonous perpetrators that have infiltrated the highest levels of our government.  It is now time to take our country back. 

The "collapse" of WTC Building 7 shows beyond any doubt that the demolitions were pre-planned.  There is simply no way to demolish a 47-story building (on fire) over a coffee break.  It is also impossible to report the building&#8217;s collapse before it happened, as BBC News did, unless it was pre-planned.  Further damning evidence is Larry Silverstein's video taped confession in which he states "they made that decision to pull [WTC 7] and we watched the building collapse." [Editor's note: WTC Building 7 was 610 feet tall, 47 stories.  It would have been the tallest building in 33 states.  Although it was not hit by an airplane, it completely collapsed into a pile of rubble in less than 7 seconds at 5:20 p.m. on 9/11, seven hours after the collapses of the Twin Towers.  However, no mention of its collapse appears in the 9/11 Commission's "full and complete account of the circumstances surrounding the September 11, 2001 terrorist attacks."  Watch the collapse video here.  And six years after 9/11, the Federal government has yet to publish its promised final report that explains the cause of its collapse.] 

We cannot let the pursuit of justice fail.  Those of us in the military took an oath to "support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic".  Just because we have retired does not make that oath invalid, so it is not just our responsibility, it is our duty to expose the real perpetrators of 9/11 and bring them to justice, no matter how hard it is, how long it takes, or how much we have to suffer to do it. 

We owe it to those who have gone before us who executed that same oath, and who are doing the same thing in Iraq and Afghanistan right now.  Those of us who joined the military and faithfully executed orders that were given us had to trust our leaders.  The violation and abuse of that trust is not only heinous, but ultimately the most accurate definition of treason!" 


Member: Scholars for 9/11 Truth and Justice   Association Statement: "Scholars for 9/11 Truth and Justice is a non-partisan organization consisting of independent researchers and activists engaged in uncovering the true nature of the September 11, 2001 attacks." 



*David L. Griscom, PhD &#8211; Research physicist, retired in 2001 from Naval Research Laboratory* (NRL) in Washington, DC, after 33 years service.  Fellow of the American Physical Society.  Fulbright-García Robles Fellow at Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México in Mexico City (1997).  Visiting professorships of research at the Universities of Paris and Saint-Etienne, France, and Tokyo Institute of Technology (2000 - 2003).  *Adjunct Professor of Materials Science and Engineering, University of Arizona (2004 *- 2005).  Winner of the 1993 N.F. Mott Award sponsored by the Journal of Non-Crystalline Solids, the 1995 Otto Schott Award offered by the Carl-Zeiss-Stiftung (Germany), a *1996 Outstanding Graduate School Alumnus Award at Brown University,* and the 1997 Sigma Xi Pure Science Award at NRL. Principal author of 109 of his 185 published works, a body of work which is highly cited by his peers.  Officially credited with largest number of papers (5) by any author on list of 100 most cited articles authored at NRL between 1973 and 1988. 
Personal blog 1/5/07: "David Ray Griffin has web-published a splendid, highly footnoted account of The Destruction of the World Trade Center: Why the Official Account Cannot Be True:  This scholarly work, rich in eyewitness accounts, includes 11 separate pieces of evidence that the World Trade Center towers 1, 2 [each 1300+ feet tall, 110 stories], and 7 were brought down by explosives.  [Editor's note: WTC Building 7 was 610 feet tall, 47 stories.  It would have been the tallest building in 33 states.  Although it was not hit by an airplane, it completely collapsed into a pile of rubble in less than 7 seconds at 5:20 p.m. on 9/11, seven hours after the collapses of the Twin Towers.  However, no mention of its collapse appears in the 9/11 Commission's "full and complete account of the circumstances surrounding the September 11, 2001 terrorist attacks."  Watch the collapse video here.  And six years after 9/11, the Federal government has yet to publish its promised final report that explains the cause of its collapse.]

... I implore my fellow physicists and engineers who may have the time, expertise, and (ideally) supercomputer access to get to work on the physics of the World Trade Center collapses and publish their findings in refereed journals like, say, the Journal of Applied Physics. 

The issue of knowing who was really behind the 9/11 attacks is of paramount importance to the future of our country, because the "official" assumption that it was the work of 19 Arab amateurs (1) does not match the available facts and (2) has led directly to the deplorable Patriot Act, the illegal Iraq war, NSA spying on ordinary Americans, repudiation of the Geneva Conventions, and the repeal of habeas corpus (a fundamental point of law that has been with us since the signing of the Magna Carta in 1215). 

Surely these Orwellian consequences of public ignorance constitute more than sufficient motivation for any patriotic American physicist or engineer to join the search for 9/11 Truth!" http://impactglassman 


Member: Scholars for 9/11 Truth and Justice   Association Statement: "Scholars for 9/11 Truth and Justice is a non-partisan organization consisting of independent researchers and activists engaged in uncovering the true nature of the September 11, 2001 attacks." 


Bio: David L Griscom PhD Physicist bio 







Dwain Deets, MS Eng 

Dwain Deets, MS Physics, MS Eng &#8211; Former Director, Aerospace Projects, NASA Dryden Flight Research Center.  Before this appointment, he served as Director, Research Engineering Division at Dryden.  Recipient of the NASA Exceptional Service Award and the Presidential Meritorious Rank Award in the Senior Executive Service (1988).  Selected presenter of the Wright Brothers Lectureship in Aeronautics, a distinguished speaking engagement sponsored by the American Institute of Aeronautics and Astronautics (AIAA) (1986).  Included in "Who's Who in Science and Engineering" 1993 - 2000.  Former Chairman of the Aerospace Control and Guidance Systems Committee of the Society of Automotive Engineers.  Former Member, AIAA Committee on Society and Aerospace Technology.  37 year NASA career. 
Statement in support of Architects and Engineers petition:
"The many visual images (massive structural members being hurled horizontally, huge pyroclastic clouds, etc.) leave no doubt in my mind explosives were involved [in the destruction of the World Trade Center]."  AE911Truth 


Signatory: Petition requesting a reinvestigation of 9/11, signed by more than 400 Architects and Engineers: 

"On Behalf of the People of the United States of America, the undersigned Architects and Engineers for 9/11 Truth and affiliates  hereby petition for, and demand, a truly independent investigation with subpoena power in order to uncover the full truth surrounding the events of 9/11/01 - specifically the collapse of the World Trade Center Towers and Building 7.  We believe that there is sufficient doubt about the official story and therefore that the 9/11 investigation must be re-opened and must include a full inquiry into the possible use of explosives that may have been the actual cause behind the destruction of the World Trade Center Towers and WTC Building 7." Sign the Petition 


Editor's note: WTC Building 7 was 610 feet tall, 47 stories.  It would have been the tallest building in 33 states.  Although it was not hit by an airplane, it completely collapsed into a pile of rubble in less than 7 seconds at 5:20 p.m. on 9/11, seven hours after the collapses of the Twin Towers.  However, no mention of its collapse appears in the 9/11 Commission's "full and complete account of the circumstances surrounding the September 11, 2001 terrorist attacks."  Watch the collapse video here.  And six years after 9/11, the Federal government has yet to publish its promised final report that explains the cause of its collapse. 


Bio: NASA - Dryden Flight Research Center 




Member: Pilots for 9/11 Truth  Association Statement: "Pilots for 9/11 Truth is an organization of aviation professionals and pilots throughout the globe that have gathered together for one purpose. We are committed to seeking the truth surrounding the events of the 11th of September 2001. Our main focus concentrates on the four flights, maneuvers performed and the reported pilots. We do not offer theory or point blame. However, we are focused on determining the truth of that fateful day since the United States Government doesn't seem to be very forthcoming with answers." 


Signatory: Petition requesting a reinvestigation of 9/11, signed by more than 400 Architects and Engineers: 

"On Behalf of the People of the United States of America, the undersigned Architects and Engineers for 9/11 Truth and affiliates  hereby petition for, and demand, a truly independent investigation with subpoena power in order to uncover the full truth surrounding the events of 9/11/01 - specifically the collapse of the World Trade Center Towers and Building 7.  We believe that there is sufficient doubt about the official story and therefore that the 9/11 investigation must be re-opened and must include a full inquiry into the possible use of explosives that may have been the actual cause behind the destruction of the World Trade Center Towers and WTC Building 7." Sign the Petition 


Website: MySpace.com - Guy - 50 - Male - Las Vegas, Isle Of Man - www.myspace.com/supereagle69


----------



## glockmail (Sep 19, 2008)

eots said:


> ......
> 
> *Capt. Edgar Mitchell, U.S. Navy *(ret), .....
> *Lt. Col. Guy S. Razer, MS Aeronautical Science, U.S. Air Force* (ret)  .....
> Dwain Deets, MS Eng  .....



No education or experience in structural or forensic engineering between the three of them. Pfft.


----------



## eots (Sep 19, 2008)

glockmail said:


> No education or experience in structural or forensic engineering between the three of them. Pfft.



*Hugo Bachmann, PhD  Professor Emeritus and former Chairman of the Department of Structural Dynamics and Earthquake Engineering,* Swiss Federal Institute of Technology.  Author and co-author of Erdbebenbemessung von Stahlbetonhochbauten (Seismic Analysis of Concrete Reinforced Structures) (1990), Vibration Problems in Structures: Practical Guidelines (1995), Biege- und Schubversuche an teilweise vorgespannten Leichtbetonbalken (Structural Analysis of Linked Concrete Beams) (1998), Hochbau für Ingenieure. Eine Einführung (Structural Construction for Engineers. An introduction) (2001), Erdbebensicherung von Bauwerken (Earthquake-proofing Buildings) (2002). 

Tages Anzeiger Article 9/9/06: "In my opinion the building WTC 7 was, with great probability, professionally demolished," says Hugo Bachmann, Emeritus ETH [Swiss Federal Institute of Technology] - Professor of Structural Analysis and Construction. And also Jörg Schneider, likewise emeritus ETH - Professor of Structural Analysis and Construction, interprets the few available video recordings as evidence that "the building WTC 7 was with great probability demolished." 
English translation: Intro
Original in German: Intro 



Mario Fontana, Dr Sc CE  Professor of Structural Analysis and Construction, Institute of *Structural Engineering,* Swiss Federal Institute of Technology.  Former Director of the Steel Construction Division, Geilinger AG.  Author of more than* 40 papers on structural engineering.* 
Tages Anzeiger Article 9/9/06: "We simply don't know what exactly happened in WTC 7," said Mario Fontana, sitting Professor of Structural Analysis and Construction at ETH-Zurich. At conferences of structural analysis experts one has discovered only very little on the collapse of WTC 7. It is at least thinkable that a long, on-going fire could have caused the collapse of the building, according to Fontana." 
English translation: Intro
Original in German: Intro 


Kamal S. Obeid, BS CE, MS CE, SE, PE  Licensed Professional* Structural and Civil Engineer, State of California. *Statement in support of Architects and Engineers petition: 

"Only recently have I begun to examine the structural collapse of the buildings. Photos of the steel, evidence about how the buildings collapsed, the unexplainable collapse of WTC 7, evidence of thermite in the debris as well as several other red flags, are quite troubling indications of well-planned and controlled demolition."  AE911Truth 


Patriots Question 9/11 - Engineers and Architects Question the 9/11 Commission Report


----------



## glockmail (Sep 19, 2008)

eots said:


> *Hugo Bachmann, PhD  Professor Emeritus and former Chairman of the Department of Structural Dynamics and Earthquake Engineering,* Swiss Federal Institute of Technology.  Author and co-author of Erdbebenbemessung von Stahlbetonhochbauten (Seismic Analysis of Concrete Reinforced Structures) (1990), Vibration Problems in Structures: Practical Guidelines (1995), Biege- und Schubversuche an teilweise vorgespannten Leichtbetonbalken (Structural Analysis of Linked Concrete Beams) (1998), Hochbau für Ingenieure. Eine Einführung (Structural Construction for Engineers. An introduction) (2001), Erdbebensicherung von Bauwerken (Earthquake-proofing Buildings) (2002).
> 
> Tages Anzeiger Article 9/9/06: "In my opinion the building WTC 7 was, with great probability, professionally demolished," says Hugo Bachmann, Emeritus ETH [Swiss Federal Institute of Technology] - Professor of Structural Analysis and Construction. And also Jörg Schneider, likewise emeritus ETH - Professor of Structural Analysis and Construction, interprets the few available video recordings as evidence that "the building WTC 7 was with great probability demolished."
> English translation: Intro
> ...



Bachmanns experience is with concrete structures and earthquakes. WTC was steel, and brought down by fire.

Fontana agrees with me that a fire brought it down.

Obeids statement is his first impression. He states that he has only begun to examine.


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## eots (Sep 19, 2008)

they all signed the petition which statement is very clear , they are intelligent experienced and educated exceeding what is required for their opinions to carry weight combined along with the shared opinions of military Intel ,FBI and astronauts and top ranked pilots.. ex directors of NORAD etc etc..it kind of starts to add up..your hair splitting games are disingenuous


----------



## glockmail (Sep 19, 2008)

eots said:


> they all signed the petition which statement is very clear , they are intelligent experienced and educated exceeding what is required for their opinions to carry weight combined along with the shared opinions of military Intel ,FBI and astronauts and top ranked pilots.. ex directors of NORAD etc etc..it kind of starts to add up..your hair splitting games are disingenuous


 If you are going to cite "weight" then I will simply point out to the many more engineers who disagree.


----------



## DiveCon (Sep 19, 2008)

eots said:


> they all signed the petition which statement is very clear , they are intelligent experienced and educated exceeding what is required for their opinions to carry weight combined along with the shared opinions of military Intel ,FBI and astronauts and top ranked pilots.. ex directors of NORAD etc etc..it kind of starts to add up..your hair splitting games are disingenuous


yeah, and a lot of people signed a petition to ban hydrogen hydroxide too

btw, that astronaut doesnt have anything to do with you troofers on that link to his website
so for all we know he is just another guy you morons keep lying about


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## eots (Sep 19, 2008)

such as.....popular mechanics ?


----------



## Uknow_me72 (Sep 19, 2008)

All you have done is prove to me that you worship authority.

You bow to it, you love it and you can not believe anything else unless someone has authority over you.

What happened to being a man? 

Get a hold of yourself guys and get the fuck out of the illusion. Look at what you are doing. Because someone has a title that you WERE TAUGHT TO OBEY you listen to them..... 

Reminds me of the slavery days of blacks in America, they were taught to obey their drivers same as you in this day. 

EOTS - Slap them again, Maybe they'll listen


----------



## MichaelCollins (Sep 19, 2008)

Uknow_me72 said:


> All you have done is prove to me that you worship authority.
> 
> You bow to it, you love it and you can not believe anything else unless someone has authority over you.
> 
> ...



The likes of Divecon and Glockmail do seem to confirm the theory that the US is a dictatorship.  There are so many gullible fools in the US now..that the leaders can do literally what they like...and these sheep will follow.

Not great for the free thinking, educated americans...  but this has been a concerted policy over successive US governments..to dumb down...the result is enough Divecons and Glockmails to ensure a dictatorship.


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## DiveCon (Sep 19, 2008)

MichaelCollins said:


> The likes of Divecon and Glockmail do seem to confirm the theory that the US is a dictatorship.  There are so many gullible fools in the US now..that the leaders can do literally what they like...and these sheep will follow.
> 
> Not great for the free thinking, educated americans...  but this has been a concerted policy over successive US governments..to dumb down...the result is enough Divecons and Glockmails to ensure a dictatorship.


yes, because understanding the actual science of a building falling makes one live under a dictatorship



what a moron you are
:eyerolls:


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## eots (Sep 19, 2008)

DiveCon said:


> yes, because understanding the actual science of a building falling makes one live under a dictatorship
> 
> 
> 
> ...



why do you pretend to understand anything..you know your not that bright


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## MichaelCollins (Sep 19, 2008)

DiveCon said:


> yes, because understanding the actual science of a building falling makes one live under a dictatorship
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I really feel for the educated american minority.

Are you scared of terrorists Divecon... what is it....attacks everyday in the US now?

Or is it none in 7 years.... and yet you voted for Bush in 2004 because he made you scared of these prolific terrorists who were everywhere.

You are gullible...you are uneducated and you are living in a dictatorship.

Regards from FREE and democractic Europe,

Michael.


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## eots (Sep 19, 2008)

DiveCon said:


> yeah, and a lot of people signed a petition to ban hydrogen hydroxide too
> 
> btw, that astronaut doesnt have anything to do with you troofers on that link to his website
> so for all we know he is just another guy you morons keep lying about



omg....you are so stupid.._for all we know_ ?  who is we ?..the mentaly handicaped ? and if you  knew _the astronaut _ was confirmed..truth..you would hold a diffrent opinion ? not likely..not until everyone else does... and its on fox at 5...its sad really


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## DiveCon (Sep 19, 2008)

LOL

you both are complete morons and i'm LMAO at you


----------



## dilloduck (Sep 19, 2008)

Uknow_me72 said:


> All you have done is prove to me that you worship authority.
> 
> You bow to it, you love it and you can not believe anything else unless someone has authority over you.
> 
> ...



ahhh EOTS is a sock puppet----that explains a lot !


----------



## Richard-H (Sep 19, 2008)

glockmail said:


> No education or experience in structural or forensic engineering between the three of them. Pfft.



That's weird, where I went to school, the mechanics of materials as well as several courses in the basics of structural engineering were required for all engineering disciplines. Of course we all know that physicist would no nothing of structural engineering - it would be a bit over their head -NOT!!!

Are you some kind of Flaming  or what?!?!?!?!?!


----------



## Richard-H (Sep 19, 2008)

Uknow_me72 said:


> All you have done is prove to me that you worship authority.
> You bow to it, you love it and you can not believe anything else unless someone has authority over you.
> What happened to being a man?
> Get a hold of yourself guys and get the fuck out of the illusion. Look at what you are doing. Because someone has a title that you WERE TAUGHT TO OBEY you listen to them.....
> ...



This country has long been ruled by the wealthy elite who let Democracy act as a pressure release when the commoners get angry. They give in to populists and liberals when they know the alternative is revolution.

As soon as the threat from the cold war ended, they immediately started to slowly destroy the middle class.

What one of the most degrading aspects of this society is that they continually reward the working class conformists. These are the people who 'succeed' in school, these are the people who get the high paying jobs. They grow up to be 'yes' men. 'Don't rock the boat', 'don't make waves' are their life's philosophies.

These conformists do next to no real contribution to society in terms of real production. Meanwhile the free thinking people are recognized early on in life and condemned. They wind up being the productive members of society that shoulder the real workload. They get economically trapped at an early age, before they understand the world - they are the ones that buy into the great and good myths of 'free' thinking and hard work to get ahead.

Those people that support the status quo are those people who have and recieve drastically more money than they earn (and deep down they know it). They fight tooth and nail to perserve society's inequities. While the productive people are too busy being productive to fight back.


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## eots (Sep 19, 2008)

dilloduck said:


> ahhh EOTS is a sock puppet----that explains a lot !



this is your argument ?  this is your lame attempt to descredit fact..cleary..you have no case

Popular Mechanics Debunked Part 1

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WULRQCgvsdE]YouTube - Popular Mechanics Debunked Part 1[/ame]


----------



## RetiredGySgt (Sep 19, 2008)

eots said:


> this is your argument ?  this is your lame attempt to descredit fact..cleary..you have no case
> 
> Popular Mechanics Debunked Part 1
> 
> YouTube - Popular Mechanics Debunked Part 1



You have no facts. NONE of the people you cite were involved in the investigations or had first hand information or knowledge or access to data. I have seen your lists before, if one actually READS some of the people you provide one line quotes from they discover the guy never approved supported or believed any of the nonsense you spout. But hey any lie will do right?


----------



## DiveCon (Sep 19, 2008)

RetiredGySgt said:


> You have no facts. NONE of the people you cite were involved in the investigations or had first hand information or knowledge or access to data. I have seen your lists before, if one actually READS some of the people you provide one line quotes from they discover the guy never approved supported or believed any of the nonsense you spout. But hey any lie will do right?


amazing, isnt it
those claiming to want the truth, are so willing to use lies


----------



## eots (Sep 19, 2008)

retiredgysgt said:


> ]you Have No Facts. None Of The People You Cite Were Involved In The Investigations



That's Not True There Are 911 Commission Members That Are Signatories To The Petition As Well As The Ex Head  Director Of Nist...do Not Pretend For One Minute Either Of You Ever Read The 911 Commission Report Or The Nist Report

Or Had First Hand Information Or Knowledge Or Access To Data. I Have Seen Your Lists Before, If One Actually Reads 





> some Of The People You Provide One Line Quotes From They Discover The Guy Never Approved Supported Or Believed Any Of The Nonsense You Spout. But Hey Any Lie Will Do Right


?]

And You Can Provide A Example Of This...right ?


----------



## RetiredGySgt (Sep 20, 2008)

I don't need to, you keep telling people to read your site, I agree, READ it, ALL of it. When ever the site has a one line quote from some important sounding person, look up the actual entire comments and you see that they neither agree with nor support the retardo positions of Eots.

Look Eots I am HELPING you.


----------



## eots (Sep 20, 2008)

RetiredGySgt said:


> I don't need to, you keep telling people to read your site, I agree, READ it, ALL of it. When ever the site has a one line quote from some important sounding person, look up the actual entire comments and you see that they neither agree with nor support the retardo positions of Eots.
> 
> Look Eots I am HELPING you.



pussy..you cant back up shit...because your full of it


----------



## RetiredGySgt (Sep 20, 2008)

eots said:


> pussy..you cant back up shit...because your full of it



Yup, your right, Remember folks GO READ EOTS site and when you find a quote, LOOK UP ALL the Statement. You will be surprised.

The one I really liked was the guy that disagreed on a minor procedural process and Eots has him listed as debunking the report. Of course he only shows you his tiny bit of a quote on the procedural point, one has to read the entire statement to realize the guy AGREES with the actual findings.


----------



## DiveCon (Sep 20, 2008)

RetiredGySgt said:


> Yup, your right, Remember folks GO READ EOTS site and when you find a quote, LOOK UP ALL the Statement. You will be surprised.
> 
> The one I really liked was the guy that disagreed on a minor procedural process and Eots has him listed as debunking the report. Of course he only shows you his tiny bit of a quote on the procedural point, one has to read the entire statement to realize the guy AGREES with the actual findings.


thats what they have to do
no person with an actively fuinctioning brain actually believes their bullshit


----------



## Richard-H (Sep 20, 2008)

The collapse of the World Trade Center towers were mostly due to a ridiculous design that should never have been approved by the City of New York. ($$$)

Several ethical engineering firms refused to build these. Finally a completely unethical sleazy firm actually agreed to build them.

These enormous buildings had NO CENTRAL SUPPORTS! My shitty little raised ranch has 8central supports.

From the beginning of civilization no one has LIKED central supports in any structure, but the laws of physics demand them. 

Idiotic business people, that had no knowledge of construction engineering, had the final say in the design of these buildings and demanded a design that defied the laws of physics.

The same was true of the Titanic, where business people overroad the judgement of the engineering and marine professionals.

I knew a young low level construction engineer that worked on these buildings back in the early 1970s. At the time they were being built he said that they were unsafe and that the design was fundamentally flawed.

These building were built like a child's snap together toy!


----------



## dilloduck (Sep 20, 2008)

Richard-H said:


> The collapse of the World Trade Center towers were mostly due to a ridiculous design that should never have been approved by the City of New York. ($$$)
> 
> Several ethical engineering firms refused to build these. Finally a completely unethical sleazy firm actually agreed to build them.
> 
> ...



Right--airplanes had nothing to do with it


----------



## DiveCon (Sep 20, 2008)

dilloduck said:


> Right--airplanes had nothing to do with it


his point is that the planes are what made it fall because of design flaws
which is partially true
the flange that held the floors to the uprights were faulty


----------



## RetiredGySgt (Sep 20, 2008)

Richard-H said:


> The collapse of the World Trade Center towers were mostly due to a ridiculous design that should never have been approved by the City of New York. ($$$)
> 
> Several ethical engineering firms refused to build these. Finally a completely unethical sleazy firm actually agreed to build them.
> 
> ...



Wait? Weren't you just claiming that the Government blew them up? Which is it?


----------



## eots (Sep 20, 2008)

RetiredGySgt said:


> Yup, your right, Remember folks GO READ EOTS site and when you find a quote, LOOK UP ALL the Statement. You will be surprised.
> 
> The one I really liked was the guy that disagreed on a minor procedural process and Eots has him listed as debunking the report. Of course he only shows you his tiny bit of a quote on the procedural point, one has to read the entire statement to realize the guy AGREES with the actual findings.



why is it so hard for to simple post your example of this accusation ?


Capt. Edgar Mitchell, U.S. Navy (ret), BS Industrial Management, BS Aerontautical Engineering, Doctor of Science, Aeronautics and Astronautics from MIT  Pilot and Astronaut.  Sixth man to walk on the moon (Apollo 14 mission).  Patrol bomber and attack plane pilot, U.S. Navy.  Test Pilot, Air Test and Evaluation Squadron 5 (VX-5).  Chief of Project Management Division, Navy Field Office for the Manned Orbiting Laboratory Project.  Graduated first in his class from the Aerospace Research Pilot School, and served as an instructor there.  Recipient of many awards and honors including the Presidential Medal of Freedom, the USN Distinguished Medal and three NASA Group Achievement Awards. Inducted to the Space Hall of Fame in 1979 and the Astronaut Hall of Fame in 1998.  Recipient of honorary doctorates in engineering from New Mexico State University, the University of Akron, Carnegie Mellon University, and a ScD from Embry-Riddle University.  Founder of the Institute of Noetic Sciences. 
*Endorser of and proposed Commissioner of a New Investigation into 9/11 as described in the New York City Ballot Initiative 11/08: "Petition to Create a NYC Independent Commission with Subpoena Power to Conduct a Comprehensive and Fact-Driven Investigation of All Relevant Aspects of the Tragic Events of September 11, 2001 and Issue a Report. *

WHEREAS, many New York City voters believe that there remain many *unanswered questions critical to establishing the truth* about all relevant events leading up to, during and subsequent to the tragic attacks occurring on September 11, 2001 (9/11), and 

WHEREAS, no prior investigation by any New York City agency or any other governmental entity has resulted in the citizens being provided with those critical answers or information necessary to* establish the truth* about those tragic events, ... 

An independent, temporary New York City commission (the Commission) is hereby created to conduct a comprehensive, *factdriven investigation *into the events that took place on 9/11, as well as to thoroughly examine related events before and after the attacks, including any activities *attempting to hide, cover up, impede or obstruct any investigation* into these 9/11 events, following wherever the facts may lead. The Commission shall publish one or more reports of their findings." 


Website: Ed Mitchell 


wow that's so confusing ..he doesn't really think there is a cover up and the truth has not been told..if you read carefully like rgs you will see he is really saying the truth has been told and there is no cover up...folks

*
Lt. Col. Guy S. Razer, MS Aeronautical Science, U.S. Air Force (ret)  Retired U.S. Air Force command fighter pilot.  Former instructor; U.S. Air Force Fighter Weapons School and NATOs Tactical Leadership Program.*  As an Air Force weapons effects expert was responsible for wartime tasking of most appropriate aircraft/munition for target destruction to include steel and concrete superstructures.  Former aeronautical structures flight test engineer with McDonnell Douglas, working on advanced DC-9 autopilot systems and DC-10 flight envelope expansion stress and flutter analysis.  Tactical aircraft flown: General Dynamics F-111 Aardvark fighter/bomber, McDonnell Douglas F-15E Strike Eagle, General Dynamics / Lockheed Martin F-16 Fighting Falcon, McDonnell Douglas F-18 Hornet, Boeing B-1 Bomber, MiG-29 (Russian fighter), and Su-22 (Russian fighter/bomber).  3,000+ fighter hours.  Combat time over Iraq.  20-year Air Force career. 
Statement to this website 3/25/07: "After 4+ years of research since retirement in 2002, I am 100% convinced that the attacks of September 11, 2001 were planned, organized, and committed by treasonous perpetrators that have infiltrated the highest levels of our government.  It is now time to take our country back. 

*The "collapse" of WTC Building 7 shows beyond any doubt that the demolitions were pre-planned.  There is simply no way to demolish a 47-story building (on fire) over a coffee break.*  It is also impossible to report the buildings collapse before it happened, as BBC News did, unless it was pre-planned.  Further damning evidence is Larry Silverstein's video taped confession in which he states "they made that decision to pull [WTC 7] and we watched the building collapse." [Editor's note: WTC Building 7 was 610 feet tall, 47 stories.  It would have been the tallest building in 33 states.  *Although it was not hit by an airplane, it completely collapsed into a pile of rubble in less than 7 seconds at 5:20 p.m. on 9/11, seven hours after the collapses of the Twin Towers.  However, no mention of its collapse appears in the 9/11 Commission's* "full and complete account of the circumstances surrounding the September 11, 2001 terrorist attacks."  Watch the collapse video here.  And six years after 9/11, *the Federal government has yet to publish its promised final report that explains the cause of its collapse.] **We cannot let the pursuit of justice fail.  Those of us in the military took an oath to "support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic".  *Just because we have retired does not make that oath invalid, so it is not just our responsibility, it is our duty to expose the real perpetrators of 9/11 and bring them to justice, no matter how hard it is, how long it takes, or how much we have to suffer to do it. 

We owe it to those who have gone before us who executed that same oath, and who are doing the same thing in Iraq and Afghanistan right now.  Those of us who joined the military and faithfully executed orders that were given us had to trust our leaders.  The violation and abuse of that trust is not only heinous, but ultimately the most accurate definition of treason!" 


Member: Scholars for 9/11 Truth and Justice   Association Statement: "Scholars for 9/11 Truth and Justice is a non-partisan organization consisting of independent researchers and activists engaged in uncovering the true nature of the September 11, 2001 attacks." 


Member: Pilots for 9/11 Truth  Association Statement: "Pilots for 9/11 Truth is an organization of aviation professionals and pilots throughout the globe that have gathered together for one purpose. We are committed to seeking the truth surrounding the events of the 11th of September 2001. Our main focus concentrates on the four flights, maneuvers performed and the reported pilots. We do not offer theory or point blame. However, we are focused on determining the truth of that fateful day since the United States Government doesn't seem to be very forthcoming with answers." 


Signatory: Petition requesting a reinvestigation of 9/11, signed by more than 400 Architects and Engineers: 

"On Behalf of the People of the United States of America, the undersigned Architects and Engineers for 9/11 Truth and affiliates  hereby petition for, and demand, a truly independent investigation with subpoena power in order to uncover the full truth surrounding the events of 9/11/01 - specifically the collapse of the World Trade Center Towers and Building 7.  We believe that there is sufficient doubt about the official story and therefore that the 9/11 investigation must be re-opened and must include a full inquiry into the possible use of explosives that may have been the actual cause behind the destruction of the World Trade Center Towers and WTC Building 7." Sign the Petition 


Website: MySpace.com - Guy - 50 - Male - Las Vegas, Isle Of Man - www.myspace.com/supereagle69 


*Again I must apologize for by misrepresentation of the facts clearly on further examination of the statement he is saying building 7 fell due to fire and ALL-CIA-DUH DID IT...FOLKS*


----------



## eots (Sep 21, 2008)

anyone remeber when  apollo astronauts where respected ?..heros..


----------



## DiveCon (Sep 21, 2008)

eots said:


> anyone remeber when  apollo astronauts where respected ?..heros..


you have yet to prove that apollo astronaut actually said or believes any of that


----------



## eots (Sep 21, 2008)

I JUST POSTED THE PROOF..are you really so uninformed as to believe that the Internet is such that you can quote provide links create video interviews..that are completely false  on such highly sensitive subjects and attribute the to such high profile individuals and not face legal action ? or have your site shut down ? sure I can have a site that claims the moon is made of cheese if I want..but I CANT...quote top level military and government officials..and claim these as their opinions and especially on a site that has grown and remained up for over 5 years !!..you need to accept this are in fact their opinions and move on from there if you disagree


----------



## DiveCon (Sep 21, 2008)

eots said:


> I JUST POSTED THE PROOF..are you really so uninformed as to believe that the Internet is such that you can quote provide links create video interviews..that are completely false  on such highly sensitive subjects and attribute the to such high profile individuals and not face legal action ? or have your site shut down ? sure I can have a site that claims the moon is made of cheese if I want..but I CANT...quote top level military and government officials..and claim these as their opinions and especially on a site that has grown and remained up for over 5 years !!..you need to accept this are in fact their opinions and move on from there if you disagree


um, where did you post this proof
you copy & pasting stuff from troofer sites is NOT proof


----------



## eots (Sep 21, 2008)

in your ignorance you deem any sight that provides the evidence as a _troofer sight _and you completely avoided the question...do you really believe these statements are not real and that one can quote high level government and military personal without repercussion ?


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## DiveCon (Sep 21, 2008)

until you provide something with actual proof, yes, i believe them to either be complete fabrications or a twist on what he actually said


----------



## eots (Sep 21, 2008)

DiveCon said:


> until you provide something with actual proof, yes, i believe them to either be complete fabrications or a twist on what he actually said



translation..yes i am so ignorant as to believe it is possible the have a site up for five years that quotes top level government officials ..creates false  video interviews on highly sensitive and  with potential career ruining statements without repercussion or legal action


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## DiveCon (Sep 21, 2008)

eots said:


> translation..yes i am so ignorant as to believe it is possible the have a site up for five years that quotes top level government officials ..creates false video interviews on highly sensitive and with potential career ruining statements without repercussion or legal action


its not being ignorant you moron
alex jones has just such a site
several of them in fact

and you are more of a moron that i have previously thought possible if you think that


----------



## eots (Sep 21, 2008)

DiveCon said:


> its not being ignorant you moron
> alex jones has just such a site
> several of them in fact
> 
> and you are more of a moron that i have previously thought possible if you think that



Alex's site offers editorial opinion and factual reporting..he has never lost a court case..he features many highly respected guest and makes it very clear what is his opinion and what are the *factual statements* of others
editorial opinion and creating false statements and also interviews of high profile individuals is not the same..not even close..all you have proved here is you don't know the difference between editorial opinion and factual reporting


----------



## DiveCon (Sep 21, 2008)

eots said:


> Alex's site offers editorial opinion and factual reporting..he has never lost a court case..he features many highly respected guest and makes it very clear what is his opinion and what are the *factual statements* of others
> editorial opinion and creating false statements and also interviews of high profile individuals is not the same..not even close..all you have proved here is you don't know the difference between editorial opinion and factual reporting


yeah, keep believing that


i'm sure it helps you sleep


----------



## eots (Sep 21, 2008)

*recent guest on alex jones show:*

                                             jesse ventura
                                             pat bucanan
                                             ed asner 
                                             ron paul  
                                             ted nugent
                                             david ray griffin
                                             allan watt
                                             Dave Mustaine
                                             Cynthia McKinney
                                             lou Dobbs,
                                             Ray McGovern 
                                             Gary Franchi's  * Patriots Question 9/11 *-
                                             Steven Jones,  BYU physics professor 
                                             Col. Donn de Grand-Pre
                                             Noam Chomsky  
                                             David Mayer de Rothschild  
                                             Ralph Nader
                                             Former German Defense Minister Von Buelow
                                             Dennis Kucinich

JUST TO NAME A FEW


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## eots (Sep 21, 2008)

DiveCon said:


> yeah, keep believing that
> 
> 
> i'm sure it helps you sleep



WHY.. would the acceptance of this fact keep you awake ?..  is that the reason for your denial ?


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## eots (Sep 21, 2008)

Todays guest

Jim Marrs 
Alex welcomes author Jim Marrs (The Rise of the Fourth Reich), former *NASA analyst *and author Richard C. Cook, and author, journalist, and lecturer Webster Tarpley (Obama: The Postmodern Coup). 
 Listen Now  Windows Media  Alex Jones' Infowars: There's a war on for your mind!


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## eots (Sep 21, 2008)

hey rgs are you ready to provided a example of a misquote yet or are you just going to pull a diveconartist and just keep making statements you can't qualify ?


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## DiveCon (Sep 21, 2008)

eots said:


> hey rgs are you ready to provided a example of a misquote yet or are you just going to pull a diveconartist and just keep making statements you can't qualify ?


hey moron, you can keep believing alex jones if you want
i really dont give a shit
but i will call it as i see it and tell you he is laughing at you all the way to the bank


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## eots (Sep 21, 2008)

you don't know the difference between editorial opinion and factual reporting clearly
and if money was what Alex was after..he could get multi million dollar rush Limbaugh..sized contracts with his abilities as a radio broadcaster


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## DiveCon (Sep 21, 2008)

eots said:


> you don't know the difference between editorial opinion and factual reporting clearly
> and if money was what Alex was after..he could get multi million dollar rush Limbaugh..sized contracts with his abilities as a radio broadcaster


he doesnt have the talent to get the kind of money Limbaugh gets
LOL
but do keep believing him and buying his videos


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## eots (Sep 21, 2008)

he post his entire catalog on google for *free*..buying is a option..as an act of support...and yes Alex is a top rate  broadcaster and also publishes his financial statement ever year..but regardless anyone who believes a national syndicated radio show host can claim he has a NASA  system analyst  or    congressmen or  governors .. retired army col  or fighter pilots on his show..but is just lying..and its one of his buddies pretending to be this person......is not in touch with reality....you can disagree with their opinions..but to simple deny there existence is lunacy


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## DiveCon (Sep 21, 2008)

eots said:


> he post his entire catalog on google for *free*..buying is a option..as an act of support...and yes Alex is a top rate  broadcaster and also publishes his financial statement ever year..but regardless anyone who believes a national syndicated radio show host can claim he has a NASA  system analyst  or    congressmen or  governors .. retired army col  or fighter pilots on his show..but is just lying..and its one of his buddies pretending to be this person......is not in touch with reality....you can disagree with their opinions..but to simple deny there existence is lunacy


yet you never show proof of them actually saying this crap
just post text with nothing to back it up
and i think its funny how the guys you claim to have said these things always seem to deny it when asked


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## eots (Sep 22, 2008)

Alex Jones Interviews Col. Donn de Grand-Pre

Alex Jones Interviews Col. Donn de Grand-Pre


Alex Jones Interviews David Schippers: Government Had Prior 

Alex Jones Interviews David Schippers: Government Had Prior Knowledge of Pending Terrorist Attacks


Alex Jones interviews Steven Jones, a BYU physics professor ...
45 min - 


Alex Jones Interviews Steven Jones

CENTCOM Sergeant Details Traitorous Stand Down Orders On 9/11

CENTCOM Sergeant Details Traitorous Stand Down Orders On 9/11


Full Interview with American Military Hero, Bud Day « Camerons ... 
alex jones interviews airforce - Google Search

: Former CIA agent
Alex Jones Interviews Robert Baer - Part 2
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zFW9rzO646U]YouTube - Alex Jones Interviews Robert Baer - Part 2[/ame]


Dr. Paul Craig Roberts and Alex Jones on Iran 
Former assistant secretary of the Treasury in the Reagan Administration and prolific and popular journalist, Paul Craig ... Former assistant secretary of the Treasury in the Reagan Administration 

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qb4-8puIfgw]YouTube - Dr. Paul Craig Roberts and Alex Jones on Iran (4 of 4)[/ame]


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## glockmail (Sep 22, 2008)

Richard-H said:


> That's weird, where I went to school, the mechanics of materials as well as several courses in the *basics *of structural engineering were required for all engineering disciplines. Of course we all know that physicist would no nothing of structural engineering - it would be a bit over their head -NOT!!!
> 
> Are you some kind of Flaming  or what?!?!?!?!?!


 Basics? Nuf said.


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## glockmail (Sep 22, 2008)

Richard-H said:


> The collapse of the World Trade Center towers were mostly due to a ridiculous design that should never have been approved by the City of New York. ($$$)
> 
> Several ethical engineering firms refused to build these. Finally a completely unethical sleazy firm actually agreed to build them.
> 
> ...



The twin towers were built with a perimeter ring of columns and a central core of columns. Your young low level buddy doesn't know what he's talking about.


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## DiveCon (Sep 22, 2008)

eots said:


> Alex Jones Interviews Col. Donn de Grand-Pre
> 
> Alex Jones Interviews Col. Donn de Grand-Pre


cant find much on him yet




eots said:


> Alex Jones Interviews David Schippers: Government Had Prior
> 
> Alex Jones Interviews David Schippers: Government Had Prior Knowledge of Pending Terrorist Attacks


so, hes just another moron lawyer(not that all lawyers are morons)


eots said:


> Alex Jones interviews Steven Jones, a BYU physics professor ...
> 45 min -
> 
> 
> Alex Jones Interviews Steven Jones


known crackpot, hes been debunked so many times i wont even bother to look him up
last i knew he was fired from his teaching position



eots said:


> CENTCOM Sergeant Details Traitorous Stand Down Orders On 9/11
> 
> CENTCOM Sergeant Details Traitorous Stand Down Orders On 9/11


well, that was easy, seems hes another poser

Screw Loose Change: Photoshop Follies



eots said:


> Full Interview with American Military Hero, Bud Day « Camerons ...
> alex jones interviews airforce - Google Search
> 
> : Former CIA agent
> ...


 

havent looked up any of these yet, but i expect they will be similar


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## sealybobo (Sep 22, 2008)

This morgage meltdown is just another terrorist attack on the American people and the world.  The rich don't care what country you are from.  The American people are a nucience to them because we cost too much.  They don't want the world relying on our economy anymore.  So every economy will become not so reliant on America's stock market.  And power has been consolidated, correct?  More power in fewer hands.

Help government, save us!!!  Disaster capitalism at its finest.

How do they get away with it?  You are all sheep!!!!  Dumb fucks, every one of you.  If you even had a clue.


----------



## Uknow_me72 (Sep 22, 2008)

Yes Government, Buy all the banks and the entire housing market, please buy the stock market so you own everything and you have full and total control. We are sheeps and we do not see what you are doing. 

Once you own everything you can then make money more theoretical and we can work for government credits. You can give us a microchip and we can scan it on those easy pay systems where we just scan it. If we do not work for you we will not eat. I call it a fair trade. I don't know why people keep saying this is a prision and we are slaves.


----------



## sealybobo (Sep 22, 2008)

Uknow_me72 said:


> Yes Government, Buy all the banks and the entire housing market, please buy the stock market so you own everything and you have full and total control. We are sheeps and we do not see what you are doing.
> 
> Once you own everything you can then make money more theoretical and we can work for government credits. You can give us a microchip and we can scan it on those easy pay systems where we just scan it. If we do not work for you we will not eat. I call it a fair trade. I don't know why people keep saying this is a prision and we are slaves.



I don't know why letting the 5 richest families in the world own anything is more free than having our government own the necessities.  Water, gas, electric, oil, health.  Fuck yea baby!!

But if you build the next internet, you can get rich.  Letting the rich gouge the public for necessities is madness.  

Don't we own our government?  So if our government owns the necessities, WE OWN THE NECESSITIES!!!


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## Uknow_me72 (Sep 22, 2008)

Those same families own the government.....


----------



## eots (Sep 22, 2008)

glockmail said:


> The twin towers were built with a perimeter ring of columns and a central core of columns. Your young low level buddy doesn't know what he's talking about.



structural engineering does not override the laws of physics the towers fell at free fall speed as did building 7 ..this is not possible without the assistance of explosives


----------



## glockmail (Sep 22, 2008)

eots said:


> structural engineering does not override the laws of physics the towers fell at free fall speed as did building 7 ..this is not possible without the assistance of explosives


 Its entirely possible without explosives. Once one floor collapses the ones above fall by gravity.


----------



## sealybobo (Sep 22, 2008)

Uknow_me72 said:


> Those same families own the government.....



We agree on something.


----------



## eots (Sep 22, 2008)

glockmail said:


> Its entirely possible without explosives. Once one floor collapses the ones above fall by gravity.



without any resistance ??? and what of the central column ..by this theory..which would require minutes not seconds..the central column would have to remain standing...what happened to the central column


----------



## glockmail (Sep 22, 2008)

eots said:


> without any resistance ??? and what of the central column ..by this theory..which would require minutes not seconds..the central column would have to remain standing...what happened to the central column


It was not a central column, but a series of columns surrounding a central core. No wonder you are so confused about the method of collapse.


----------



## eots (Sep 22, 2008)

what happened to the _series _of central columns..and where did the molten metal come from


----------



## eots (Sep 22, 2008)

History Channel Molten Metal At Ground Zero 

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Ogrupgt4mI]YouTube - History Channel Molten Metal At Ground Zero[/ame]


Evidence for thermite and view of the "spire" collapse

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FWn8QNQWSsY[/ame]

Molten WTC rock
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xbMu2w7fSG8&feature=related]YouTube - Molten WTC rock[/ame]


Molten metal in basements 911 Demolition
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n7FtFeKyaRg]YouTube - Molten metal in basements 911 Demolition[/ame]


----------



## Care4all (Sep 22, 2008)

it burned and smoldered for 5 months after the collapse....i remember that it was february 02 before it stopped burning....that is a very long time....


----------



## glockmail (Sep 22, 2008)

eots said:


> what happened to the _series _of central columns..and where did the molten metal come from


 The columns collapsed and buckled at their bolted joints when they lost lateral support from the floors. 

With regards to the unrelated issue that you brought up, although there have been several reports of "molten steel", when the bottom of the excavation was reached there were no pools of solidified steel, thereby proving those reports to be bullshit.


----------



## glockmail (Sep 22, 2008)

Care4all said:


> it burned and smoldered for 5 months after the collapse....i remember that it was february 02 before it stopped burning....that is a very long time....


 That's to be expected with thousands of gallons of jet fuel, furniture, paper and debris insulated in very deep basements.


----------



## eots (Sep 22, 2008)

you just say no molten therefore there is none ? its just explained away like that huh and again all-this buckling you speak of caused no delay in the speed in which the towers fell and if the floors had the mass to knock out the floors beneath then why is there only ruble and dust ...where is the mass..the piles of floors


----------



## glockmail (Sep 22, 2008)

eots said:


> you just say no molten therefore there is none ? its just explained away like that huh and again all-this buckling you speak of caused no delay in the speed in which the towers fell and if the floors had the mass to knock out the floors beneath then why is there only ruble and dust ...where is the mass..the piles of floors


I see your method of dealing with irrefutable logic is to construct sentences so poorly as to be unable to be deciphered. It's an unusual technique but one that I have seen before.


----------



## DiveCon (Sep 22, 2008)

eots said:


> you just say no molten therefore there is none ? its just explained away like that huh and again all-this buckling you speak of caused no delay in the speed in which the towers fell and if the floors had the mass to knock out the floors beneath then why is there only ruble and dust ...where is the mass..the piles of floors


it is a lie to claim they fell at free fall speed
thats another of the many lies you troofers keep repeating
because you use faulty numbers to begin with
you use the full 110 story height as the full length of the fall when the pile that was left was over 4 stories tall and the colapse didnt start at the very top
this is just the logic and common sense you morons lack


----------



## DiveCon (Sep 22, 2008)

glockmail said:


> I see your method of dealing with irrefutable logic is to construct sentences so poorly as to be unable to be deciphered. It's an unusual technique but one that I have seen before.


he also ignores what happens to concrete as it would fall
it tends to return to a powder state
but hey, he is in denial of common sense and logic anyway


----------



## eots (Sep 22, 2008)

the towers fell at near free fall speed and nowhere near the time reqired for a pancake collapse to ocurr and what of building 7


WTC 7 Falls in under 7 seconds. The rate of free fall for the 47 story building is 6.8 

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ml_n5gJgQ_U]YouTube - WTC 7 Free Fall Collapse[/ame]


----------



## glockmail (Sep 22, 2008)

DiveCon said:


> he also ignores what happens to concrete as it would fall
> it tends to return to a powder state
> but hey, he is in denial of common sense and logic anyway



It was actually gyp-crete, a mixture of portland cement, gypsum and fine aggregates which is very weak and in fact disintegrates into dust as you described.


----------



## eots (Sep 22, 2008)

glockmail said:


> I see your method of dealing with irrefutable logic is to construct sentences so poorly as to be unable to be deciphered. It's an unusual technique but one that I have seen before.



I see you cant answer the question in any detail  and just make empty statements


----------



## eots (Sep 22, 2008)

glockmail said:


> That's to be expected with thousands of gallons of jet fuel, furniture, paper and debris insulated in very deep basements.



those items dont burn at the tempatures recorded ..jet fuel would immeditly be burned off in the intial explosion and jet fuel doesnt even burn at the tempatures recorded


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## glockmail (Sep 22, 2008)

eots said:


> I see you cant answer the question in any detail  and just make empty statements


I'm sorry, was that a question?


----------



## Care4all (Sep 22, 2008)

glockmail said:


> That's to be expected with thousands of gallons of jet fuel, furniture, paper and debris insulated in very deep basements.



i can see that....

at the time, it was tormenting to watch the burn continuing....and having to wait on looking for human remains in those burning areas....


----------



## glockmail (Sep 22, 2008)

eots said:


> those items dont burn at the tempatures recorded ..jet fuel would immeditly be burned off in the intial explosion and jet fuel doesnt even burn at the tempatures recorded



Wow- what's a "tempatures "? Do you mean temperature? But your position earlier was that the fire was hot enough to melt steel. Perhaps you should get your theory straight before you repeat it. But that would take scientific knowledge, including how the building was built, and that's just too hard for you folks, isn't it?


----------



## dilloduck (Sep 22, 2008)

eots said:


> those items dont burn at the tempatures recorded ..jet fuel would immeditly be burned off in the intial explosion and jet fuel doesnt even burn at the tempatures recorded



Why did they even bother flying planes into the buidlings ?


----------



## eots (Sep 22, 2008)

Let&#8217;s start with _*temperatures *_&#8211; 1,340 F. temperatures, recorded in thermal images of the surface of the World Trade Center rubble pile a week after 9/11 by NASA&#8217;s AVIRIS equipment on USGS overflights.3Such temperatures cannot be achieved by oxygen-starved hydrocarbon fires. Such fires burn at only 600 to 800 F.4Remember, there was no fire on the top of the pile. Thesource of this incredible heat was therefore below the surface of the rubble, where it must havebeen far hotter than 1,340 degrees. Mark Loizeaux, president of Controlled Demolition, Inc., who was hired for the Building 7 cleanup, said that &#8220;molten steel was found at 7 WTC.&#8221;5Leslie Robertson, World Trade Centerstructural engineer, stated that on October 5, &#8220;21 days after the attacks, the fires were stillburning and molten steel was still running.&#8221;6Fire department personnel, recorded on video, reported seeing &#8220;molten steel running down the channel rails&#8230; like you're in a foundry &#8211; likelava from a volcano.&#8221;7Joe O&#8217;Toole, a Bronx firefighter, saw a crane lifting a steel beamvertically from deep within a pile. He said &#8220;it was dripping from the molten steel.&#8221;8BartVoorsanger, an architect hired to save &#8220;relics from the rubble,&#8221; stated about the multi-ton &#8220;meteorite&#8221; that it was a &#8220;fused element of molten steel and concrete.&#8221;9The knowledge that this evidence even exists was denied by one of your top engineers, John Gross, in his appearance at the University of Texas in April of this year.10Steel melts at about 2,850 degrees Fahrenheit, about twice the temperature of the World TradeCenter Tower 1 and 2 fires as estimated by NIST. So what melted the steel?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Page 2 
2 Appendix C of FEMA&#8217;s BPAT Report (attached to this email) documents steel samples showingrapid oxidation, sulfidation, and intergranular melting.11A liquid eutectic mixture, includingsulfur from an unknown source, caused intense corrosion of the steel, gaping holes in wideflange beams, and the thinning of half-inch-thick flanges to almost razor-sharpness in the World Trade Center 7 steel. The New York Times called this &#8220;the deepest mystery uncovered in theinvestigation.&#8221;NIST left all of this crucial forensic evidence out of its report. Why? Because it didn&#8217;t fit in with the official conspiracy theory. Last year, physicist Steven Jones, two other physicists, and a geologist analyzed the slag at theends of the beams and in the samples of the previously molten metal.12They found iron, aluminum, sulfur, manganese and fluorine &#8211; the chemical evidence of thermate, a high-tech incendiary cutting charge used by the military to cut through steel like a hot knife through butter. The by-product of the thermate reaction is molten iron! There&#8217;s no other possible source for allthe molten iron that was found. One of thermate&#8217;s key ingredients is sulfur, which can form theliquid eutectic that FEMA found and lower the melting point of steel. In addition, World Trade Center 7&#8217;s catastrophic structural failure showed every characteristic ofexplosive, controlled demolition. You can see all these characteristics at our websitewww.AE911truth.org. The destruction began suddenly at the base of the building. Several firstresponders reported explosions occurring about a second before the collapse. There was thesymmetrical, near-free-fall speed of collapse, through the path of greatest resistance &#8211; with 40,000 tons of steel designed to resist this load &#8211; straight down into its own footprint. Thisrequires that all the columns have to fail within a fraction of a second of each other &#8211; perimetercolumns as well as core columns. There was also the appearance of mistimed explosions(squibs?) at the upper seven floors on the network video recordings of the collapse. And we haveexpert testimony from a European demolitions expert, Danny Jowenko, who said &#8220;This iscontrolled demolition&#8230; a team of experts did this&#8230; This is professional work, without anydoubt.&#8221;13Fire cannot produce these effects. Fire produces large, gradual deformations and asymmetricalcollapses. Thermate can produce all of these effects used in conjunction with linear shaped charges. If the thermate is formed into ultra-fine particles, as has been accomplished at LosAlamos National Laboratory, it is called super-thermate, and is very explosive.14The National Fire Protection Association&#8217;s NFPA 921 Guide for Fire and Explosion Investigations (1998 Edition) dictates in fire investigations that certain residues should be tested for. Thermate would leave behind signs of sulfidation/corrosion by sulfur. Such residues were in fact noted in Appendix C of the FEMA BPAT report (see note 11). &#8220;If the physical evidenceestablishes one factor, such as the presence of an accelerant, that may be sufficient to establish the cause even where other factors such as ignition source cannot be determined.&#8221;15Thermateand sulfur obviously qualify as accelerants in this case (with regard to the destruction of steelwhich in turn could have caused the near-free-fall-speed collapse). (The fires were notparticularly suspicious, but Building 7&#8217;s collapse was, because of its symmetry and speed.)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Page 3 
3 Because NIST seems to have forgotten or neglected to apply key features of the scientificmethod, I am including as an attachment to this submission Steven E. Jones, &#8220;Revisiting9/11/2001 -- Applying the Scientific Method&#8221;, Journal of 911 Studies, April 2007, http://www.journalof911studies.com/volume/200704/JonesWTC911SciMethod.pdf. How much longer must we endure NIST&#8217;s cover-up of how Building 7 was actually destroyed?Millions of Americans,16including the 230+ architects and engineers and 600 others ofAE911Truth.org, demand that NIST come clean with a full-throttle, fully resourced and transparent forensic investigation of the evidence of the controlled demolition of Building 7. References1AE911Truth.org.2James Quintiere, Ph.D., presentation at the 2007 World Fire Safety Conference June 4 and June 5, 2007,&#8220;Questions on the WTC Investigations,&#8221; quoted in Alan Miller, &#8220;Former Chief of NIST's Fire Science DivisionCalls for Independent Review of World Trade Center Investigation,&#8221; OpEdNews.com, August 21, 2007,OpEdNews » OpEdNews.Com Progressive, Tough Liberal News and Opinion 01-0429: World Trade Center USGS Thermal, http://pubs.usgs.gov/of/2001/ofr-01-0429/thermal.r09.html,cited in Roger N. Clark, Robert O. Green, et al., OFR 01-0429: World Trade Center USGS Imaging Spectroscopy,USGS Open-File Report 01-0429, &#8220;Environmental Studies of the World Trade Center area after the September 11,2001 attack,&#8221; November 27, 2001, http://pubs.usgs.gov/of/2001/ofr-01-0429/.4This is a correction from my spoken statement. Moreover, according to NIST NCSTAR 1(http://wtc.nist.gov/NISTNCSTAR1CollapseofTowers.pdf), p. 29, the highest temperature typically reached by firesof common building combustibles is 1,100 C. Moreover, even for WTC 1, where the fires were ignited by jet fuel,NIST estimated the temperature range as between 500 and 1,000 C. The high end of this range is about 2/3 themelting point of steel. There is no evidence to support the idea that the fires in WTC 7 were any hotter than this. Onthe contrary, the holes in WTC 7 caused by falling steel from WTC 1, which would have fed oxygen to the fires inWTC 7, were much smaller than those in WTC 1 and farther from the observed flames.5Christopher Bollyn, &#8220;New Seismic Data Refutes Official Explanation,&#8221; American Free Press, September 3, 2002,Internet Archive Wayback Machine Williams, SEAUNEWS, The Newsletter of the Structural Engineers Association of Utah, October 2001, page3, http://www.seau.org/SEAUNews-2001-10.pdf. The words appear without quotes, so they might be Williams&#8217;paraphrase.7&#8220;Molten Metal Flows at Ground Zero,&#8221; posted November 16, 2006, Molten Metal Flows at Ground Zero Lin, &#8220;Recovery worker reflects on months spent at Ground Zero," May 29, 2002, Knight-Ridder, cited inDavid Ray Griffin, 9/11, American Empire, and Christian Faith, May 5, 2006, Global Research,http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=2393.9Relics In The Rubble, http://bsdb.nfshost.com/ae911truth_v13/Relics_in_the_Rubble_Meteorite.wmv, excerpted as&#8220;Molten Steel Found in Ruins of World Trade Center,&#8221; posted May 31, 2007,MySpaceTV Videos: Watch and share your favorite videos, trailers, movies, tv shows, music videos, and clips Lead Engineer Questioned About 9/11 Denies Molten Metal,&#8221; posted May 21, 2007,NIST Lead Engineer Questioned About 9/11 ~ Denies Molten Metal. One of AE911Truth&#8217;s member-signers waspresent when Dr. Gross made his denial. He denied not only that the reports of molten steel or iron were true, buteven knowing of any such reports having been made by any eyewitnesses. This video provides another copy of theclip referenced in &#8220;Molten Metal Flows at Ground Zero,&#8221; cited above.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Page 4 
4 11Jonathan Barnett, Ronald R. Biederman, and R. D. Sisson, Jr., &#8220;Limited Metallurgical Examination,&#8221; undated,http://www.fema.gov/pdf/library/fema403_apc.pdf.12Steven Jones, &#8220;Can one PROVE the use of thermate/superthermate?&#8221;, &#8220;Answers to Objections and Questions,&#8221;July 18, 2006, Journal of 9/11 Studies,http://www.journalof911studies.com/articles/JonesAnswersQuestionsWorldTradeCenter.pdf.13Posted on YouTube in three parts: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k3DR...utube.com/watch?v=sep-HDZoEBM&feature=related, andhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=boNzLZInbjU.14John Gartner, &#8220;Military Reloads with Nanotech,&#8221; Technology Review (MIT), January 21, 2005,http://www.technologyreview.com/Nanotech/14105/.15&#8220;NFPA 921 Section 12-2.4 : Undetermined Fire Cause,&#8221; reproduced athttp://www.interfire.org/res_file/92112m.asp.16Mike Berger, &#8220;Zogby Poll Finds Over 70 Million Voting Age Americans Support New 9/11 Investigation,&#8221; May22, 2006, http://www.911truth.org/article.php?story=20060522022041421.eratures[/I]


----------



## glockmail (Sep 22, 2008)

eots said:


> Lets start with _*temperatures *_ 1,340 F. temperatures, recorded in thermal images of the surface of the World Trade Center rubble pile a week after 9/11 by NASAs AVIRIS equipment on USGS overflights.3Such temperatures cannot be achieved by oxygen-starved hydrocarbon fires. Such fires burn at only 600 to 800 F.4Remember, there was no fire on the top of the pile. Thesource of this incredible heat was therefore below the surface of the rubble, where it must havebeen far hotter than 1,340 degrees. Mark Loizeaux, president of Controlled Demolition, Inc., who was hired for the Building 7 cleanup, said that molten steel was found at 7 WTC.5Leslie Robertson, World Trade Centerstructural engineer, stated that on October 5, 21 days after the attacks, the fires were stillburning and molten steel was still running.6Fire department personnel, recorded on video, reported seeing molten steel running down the channel rails like you're in a foundry  likelava from a volcano.7Joe OToole, a Bronx firefighter, saw a crane lifting a steel beamvertically from deep within a pile. He said it was dripping from the molten steel.8BartVoorsanger, an architect hired to save relics from the rubble, stated about the multi-ton meteorite that it was a fused element of molten steel and concrete.9The knowledge that this evidence even exists was denied by one of your top engineers, John Gross, in his appearance at the University of Texas in April of this year.10Steel melts at about 2,850 degrees Fahrenheit, about twice the temperature of the World TradeCenter Tower 1 and 2 fires as estimated by NIST. So what melted the steel?
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Page 2
> 2 Appendix C of FEMAs BPAT Report (attached to this email) documents steel samples showingrapid oxidation, sulfidation, and intergranular melting.11A liquid eutectic mixture, includingsulfur from an unknown source, caused intense corrosion of the steel, gaping holes in wideflange beams, and the thinning of half-inch-thick flanges to almost razor-sharpness in the World Trade Center 7 steel. The New York Times called this the deepest mystery uncovered in theinvestigation.NIST left all of this crucial forensic evidence out of its report. Why? Because it didnt fit in with the official conspiracy theory. Last year, physicist Steven Jones, two other physicists, and a geologist analyzed the slag at theends of the beams and in the samples of the previously molten metal.12They found iron, aluminum, sulfur, manganese and fluorine  the chemical evidence of thermate, a high-tech incendiary cutting charge used by the military to cut through steel like a hot knife through butter. The by-product of the thermate reaction is molten iron! Theres no other possible source for allthe molten iron that was found. One of thermates key ingredients is sulfur, which can form theliquid eutectic that FEMA found and lower the melting point of steel. In addition, World Trade Center 7s catastrophic structural failure showed every characteristic ofexplosive, controlled demolition. You can see all these characteristics at our websitewww.AE911truth.org. The destruction began suddenly at the base of the building. Several firstresponders reported explosions occurring about a second before the collapse. There was thesymmetrical, near-free-fall speed of collapse, through the path of greatest resistance  with 40,000 tons of steel designed to resist this load  straight down into its own footprint. Thisrequires that all the columns have to fail within a fraction of a second of each other  perimetercolumns as well as core columns. There was also the appearance of mistimed explosions(squibs?) at the upper seven floors on the network video recordings of the collapse. And we haveexpert testimony from a European demolitions expert, Danny Jowenko, who said This iscontrolled demolition a team of experts did this This is professional work, without anydoubt.13Fire cannot produce these effects. Fire produces large, gradual deformations and asymmetricalcollapses. Thermate can produce all of these effects used in conjunction with linear shaped charges. If the thermate is formed into ultra-fine particles, as has been accomplished at LosAlamos National Laboratory, it is called super-thermate, and is very explosive.14The National Fire Protection Associations NFPA 921 Guide for Fire and Explosion Investigations (1998 Edition) dictates in fire investigations that certain residues should be tested for. Thermate would leave behind signs of sulfidation/corrosion by sulfur. Such residues were in fact noted in Appendix C of the FEMA BPAT report (see note 11). If the physical evidenceestablishes one factor, such as the presence of an accelerant, that may be sufficient to establish the cause even where other factors such as ignition source cannot be determined.15Thermateand sulfur obviously qualify as accelerants in this case (with regard to the destruction of steelwhich in turn could have caused the near-free-fall-speed collapse). (The fires were notparticularly suspicious, but Building 7s collapse was, because of its symmetry and speed.)
> ...



Nice cut-n-paste, but I'm looking for _your _explanation.


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## eots (Sep 22, 2008)

lets hear yours....mr popular mechanics..backed up with some kind of info other than popular mechanics


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## glockmail (Sep 22, 2008)

eots said:


> lets hear yours....mr popular mechanics..backed up with some kind of info other than popular mechanics


Mine is the same as the conclusion of the American Society of Civil Engineers, of which I have been a member for almost 30 years. The unabated fires brought the buildings down: The floor trusses softened and drooped, the columns then lost lateral support and buckled at their weakest points, which were bolted connections in 20' lengths. When one 40' section gave way the building above that level dropped, "free fall", to the sections below, which were not designed to handle those dynamic loads. Therefore the failure progressed to the entire building.


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## KittenKoder (Sep 22, 2008)

YouTube - Broadcast Yourself.


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## DiveCon (Sep 22, 2008)

glockmail said:


> Mine is the same as the conclusion of the American Society of Civil Engineers, of which I have been a member for almost 30 years. The unabated fires brought the buildings down: The floor trusses softened and drooped, the columns then lost lateral support and buckled at their weakest points, which were bolted connections in 20' lengths. When one 40' section gave way the building above that level dropped, "free fall", to the sections below, which were not designed to handle those dynamic loads. Therefore the failure progressed to the entire building.


and while not the sole cause, it was a contributing factor that the points that were damaged by the plane crash weakend the structural supports and put extra loads onto the existing supports
it was a combination effect
thats why these troofer morons have to ignore the science


----------



## glockmail (Sep 22, 2008)

DiveCon said:


> and while not the sole cause, it was a contributing factor that the points that were damaged by the plane crash weakend the structural supports and put extra loads onto the existing supports
> it was a combination effect
> thats why these troofer morons have to ignore the science


I would like to see a correlation between these kooks and what percentage are Democrats. I'm certain that it would be a high number; close to 100%.


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## KittenKoder (Sep 22, 2008)

glockmail said:


> I would like to see a correlation between these kooks and what percentage are Democrats. I'm certain that it would be a high number; close to 100%.



That makes no point at all. It's the same as that 100% of the KKK is republican.


----------



## glockmail (Sep 22, 2008)

KittenKoder said:


> That makes no point at all. It's the same as that 100% of the KKK is republican.


What the fuck are you talking about? The KKK is the terrorist wing of the Democrat Party, created when they lost the Civil War, and carried in to the present by guys like Robert "Sheets" Byrd, Democrat West Virginia.


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## DiveCon (Sep 22, 2008)

glockmail said:


> I would like to see a correlation between these kooks and what percentage are Democrats. I'm certain that it would be a high number; close to 100%.


most i have dealt with are libertarian to total anachists
few are dems but thats mostly because they want to blame everything on Bush
they are the minority


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## KittenKoder (Sep 22, 2008)

glockmail said:


> What the fuck are you talking about? The KKK is the terrorist wing of the Democrat Party, created when they lost the Civil War, and carried in to the present by guys like Robert "Sheets" Byrd, Democrat West Virginia.



The modern versions of things are never the same as when they started. The oiginal republicans and democrats use to work together more, but now they just keep attacking each other for instance. Most KKK members today are republican ... most likely. Not like they actually tell anyone who they are all the time.


----------



## DiveCon (Sep 22, 2008)

KittenKoder said:


> That makes no point at all. It's the same as *SAYING *that 100% of the KKK is republican.


 fixed



glockmail said:


> What the fuck are you talking about? The KKK is the terrorist wing of the Democrat Party, created when they lost the Civil War, and carried in to the present by guys like Robert "Sheets" Byrd, Democrat West Virginia.


 see my fix


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## glockmail (Sep 22, 2008)

DiveCon said:


> most i have dealt with are libertarian to total anachists
> few are dems but thats mostly because they want to blame everything on Bush
> they are the minority


About half of Libtardians are Democrats who figured out economics, but are still clinging to liberal social issues. Anarchists tend to be children of far-left Liberals who want to shock their parents.


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## DiveCon (Sep 22, 2008)

KittenKoder said:


> The modern versions of things are never the same as when they started. The oiginal republicans and democrats use to work together more, but now they just keep attacking each other for instance. Most KKK members today are republican ... most likely. Not like they actually tell anyone who they are all the time.


actually, thats not true either


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## jillian (Sep 22, 2008)

DiveCon said:


> actually, thats not true either



what part of what she said isn't true? seems about right to me.


----------



## glockmail (Sep 22, 2008)

KittenKoder said:


> The modern versions of things are never the same as when they started. The oiginal republicans and democrats use to work together more, but now they just keep attacking each other for instance. Most KKK members today are republican ... most likely. Not like they actually tell anyone who they are all the time.


 Wow you're full of fucked-up, baseless theories. So Republicans shed blood to stop racist Democrat policies, but that's not contentious compared with modern times, when the Republicans and Democrats each adopted each others positions to become really hateful of each other.


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## glockmail (Sep 22, 2008)

jillian said:


> what part of what she said isn't true? seems about right to me.


 That's because you're as shit-fer-brains dumb as she is.


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## DiveCon (Sep 22, 2008)

jillian said:


> what part of what she said isn't true? seems about right to me.


 


glockmail said:


> That's because you're as shit-fer-brains dumb as she is.


 what he said


----------



## eots (Sep 22, 2008)

glockmail said:


> Mine is the same as the conclusion of the American Society of Civil Engineers, of which I have been a member for almost 30 years. The unabated fires brought the buildings down: The floor trusses softened and drooped, the columns then lost lateral support and buckled at their weakest points, which were bolted connections in 20' lengths. When one 40' section gave way the building above that level dropped, "free fall", to the sections below, which were not designed to handle those dynamic loads. Therefore the failure progressed to the entire building.



so you read their conclusion.. did you read how they arrived at it ...that was fema's findings..but it was agenda driven science full of contradictions and allowances for along series of highly improbable phenomenon all occurring one after the other..it was a completely flawed study and was based mainly on fire ..which did nothing to explain the collapse of building 7 not jet fuel yet it falls  in the same controlled manner the only 3 buildings to fall due to fire ever


----------



## DiveCon (Sep 22, 2008)

eots said:


> so you read their conclusion.. did you read how they arrived at it ...that was fema's findings..but it was agenda driven science full of contradictions and allowances for along series of highly improbable phenomenon all occurring one after the other..it was a completely flawed study and was based mainly on fire ..which did nothing to explain the collapse of building 7 not jet fuel yet it falls  in the same controlled manner the only 3 buildings to fall due to fire ever


sigh, the tower fell right into WTC 7
and they had huge diesel tanks for the emergency backup generators
and the water mains were broken so they had no water to fight the fires


----------



## eots (Sep 22, 2008)

big deal it was a massive building and had only small fires many buildings have suffered fire greater stress and not collapsed..even nist has not concluded  on wtc 7..no sorry does not even come close to a explanation ..it could if really stretched explain some sort of even tipping or partial collapse but not in the manner it occurred


[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LD06SAf0p9A]YouTube - wtc 7 collapse[/ame]    7 SECS


----------



## dilloduck (Sep 22, 2008)

eots said:


> big deal it was a massive building and had only small fires many buildings have suffered fire greater stress and not collapsed..even nist has not concluded  on wtc 7..no sorry does not even come close to a explanation ..it could if really stretched explain some sort of even tipping or partial collapse but not in the manner it occurred
> 
> 
> YouTube - wtc 7 collapse    7 SECS



they needed more planes


----------



## DiveCon (Sep 22, 2008)

eots said:


> big deal it was a massive building and had only small fires many buildings have suffered fire greater stress and not collapsed..even nist has not concluded  on wtc 7..no sorry does not even come close to a explanation ..it could if really stretched explain some sort of even tipping or partial collapse but not in the manner it occurred
> 
> 
> YouTube - wtc 7 collapse    7 SECS


now you are back to talking bullshit again
you totally ignore the facts and bring up some BS video and make an unfounded claim
a 60k gallon tank of diesel fuel ruptured from the damage done by the colapse of the tower into WTC7, it also took out 2/3rds of the south face of the building
damaged the support structures as well
thus putting more stress on the remaining supports, the fire burned unabated for HOURS
it finally just colapsed because the support structures lost their ability to stand


----------



## KittenKoder (Sep 22, 2008)

DiveCon said:


> now you are back to talking bullshit again
> you totally ignore the facts and bring up some BS video and make an unfounded claim
> a 60k gallon tank of diesel fuel ruptured from the damage done by the colapse of the tower into WTC7, it also took out 2/3rds of the south face of the building
> damaged the support structures as well
> ...



Conspiracy nuts don't care about facts or logic. They feed on fear and the uneducated.


----------



## eots (Sep 22, 2008)

DiveCon said:


> now you are back to talking bullshit again
> you totally ignore the facts and bring up some BS video and make an unfounded claim
> a 60k gallon tank of diesel fuel ruptured from the damage done by the colapse of the tower into WTC7, it also took out 2/3rds of the south face of the building
> damaged the support structures as well
> ...



all at the exact same instance,,even tho fuel tanks where on one side of the building only.. and the distribution of heat uneven.. ever single truss on ever single floor gave in at the exact same moment..uh.. huh


----------



## DiveCon (Sep 22, 2008)

eots said:


> all at the exact same instance,,even tho fuel tanks where on one side of the building only.. and the distribution of heat uneven.. ever single truss on ever single floor gave in at the exact same moment..uh.. huh


:doh: you are dense, arent you
it didnt take EVERY SINGLE support to fail at once
all it took was a few to fail and the rest wouldnt support the whole load
do you not understand the simple principle of "a chain is only as strong as it's weakest link"?
remember, the remaining supports were NOT DESIGNED to carry the whole load, it was spread over the whole support systems
have you seen how they rebuilt WTC7?
they learned from the mess and made the supports much stronger
gee, why would they do that if the previous building had no support flaws and was taken down by a controlled demolition??????


because it wasnt, you MORON
learn something one day


----------



## KittenKoder (Sep 22, 2008)

DiveCon said:


> :doh: you are dense, arent you
> it didnt take EVERY SINGLE support to fail at once
> all it took was a few to fail and the rest wouldnt support the whole load
> do you not understand the simple principle of "a chain is only as strong as it's weakest link"?
> ...



Kind of reminds me of the last earthquake here in Seattle. Most buildings were still standing, but they were close to falling apart because of the damage done. They had to be closed while construction crews rebuilt the inside of the building. They didn't fall all at once, some didn't last until they could be reinforced. It doesn't take an engineer to see that buildings need all the supports to be in tact for a building to stand, as I said before, conspiracy nuts feed off the uneducated and unthinking as much as hatemongers do ... hmmm ... resemblance anyone?


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## RetiredGySgt (Sep 23, 2008)

KittenKoder said:


> The modern versions of things are never the same as when they started. The oiginal republicans and democrats use to work together more, but now they just keep attacking each other for instance. Most KKK members today are republican ... most likely. Not like they actually tell anyone who they are all the time.



Must be nice to be able to read the minds of people you do not even know and determine the party they belong to.

What IS know is Democrats WERE the KKK and a long serving Senator, Byrd, admits he was one. Yet you do not care that he was a card carrying, sheet wearing racist bigot.


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## KittenKoder (Sep 23, 2008)

RetiredGySgt said:


> Must be nice to be able to read the minds of people you do not even know and determine the party they belong to.
> 
> What IS know is Democrats WERE the KKK and a long serving Senator, Byrd, admits he was one. Yet you do not care that he was a card carrying, sheet wearing racist bigot.



 You still think I care about whether dems are good or bad. I don't care because both sides are corrupt. The point of the matter is that the KKK follows republican views, not democrat. There are always some in one party or the other that will be completely opposite their own (*cough* Obama and McCain) but then, that is the flaw with blind followers of all types.


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## RetiredGySgt (Sep 23, 2008)

KittenKoder said:


> You still think I care about whether dems are good or bad. I don't care because both sides are corrupt. The point of the matter is that the KKK follows republican views, not democrat. There are always some in one party or the other that will be completely opposite their own (*cough* Obama and McCain) but then, that is the flaw with blind followers of all types.



You are ignorant as a box of rocks. The Republican party was more for Civil Rights then the Democrats were, you may want to go check out just how many voted FOR civil rights and the percentage by totals in both parties that supported it. It makes ZERO sense that racist democrats would flee the democratic party to a party even more bent on civil rights and ending segregation.

But then as you noted in another thread, never let facts intrude on a good lie.


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## KittenKoder (Sep 23, 2008)

RetiredGySgt said:


> You are ignorant as a box of rocks. The Republican party was more for Civil Rights then the Democrats were, you may want to go check out just how many voted FOR civil rights and the percentage by totals in both parties that supported it. It makes ZERO sense that racist democrats would flee the democratic party to a party even more bent on civil rights and ending segregation.
> 
> But then as you noted in another thread, never let facts intrude on a good lie.



The key part of your post is the tense, it WAS. Not it IS. They have both swung, and those who follow the party blindly by their names instead of their ideals are ... well ... just plain stupid. Time to move to the present, currently both parties are completely fucked up, neither standing for more than their own selfish ideals. One now has hyper-religious nutjobs running it and the other is hiding the taking of rights in 'what is best for the planet'. The two parties are nothing like they once were.


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## RetiredGySgt (Sep 23, 2008)

KittenKoder said:


> The key part of your post is the tense, it WAS. Not it IS. They have both swung, and those who follow the party blindly by their names instead of their ideals are ... well ... just plain stupid. Time to move to the present, currently both parties are completely fucked up, neither standing for more than their own selfish ideals. One now has hyper-religious nutjobs running it and the other is hiding the taking of rights in 'what is best for the planet'. The two parties are nothing like they once were.



You must have missed it when the Republican party threw out the far right religious "nut Jobs" But then who would expect YOU to have paid any attention to reality.

The only party run by extremists is the Liberal Democratic party.

You are of course aware that Bush is no right winger? Yet he is President elected by your supposed far right religious nut jobs? That McCain is another Republican that is left of center, yet he is the Republican nominee?

You are aware that Neo Cons are not far right at all? That they are disgruntled Democrats that found that the swing of their party to far left lala land was to much to take?

No I suspect you know none of this. Go pretend religious nut jobs have any real power in the Republican party.


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## KittenKoder (Sep 23, 2008)

RetiredGySgt said:


> You must have missed it when the Republican party threw out the far right religious "nut Jobs" But then who would expect YOU to have paid any attention to reality.



Sarah Palin.


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## glockmail (Sep 23, 2008)

eots said:


> so you read their conclusion.. did you read how they arrived at it ...that was fema's findings..but it was agenda driven science full of contradictions and allowances for along series of highly improbable phenomenon all occurring one after the other..it was a completely flawed study and was based mainly on fire ..which did nothing to explain the collapse of building 7 not jet fuel yet it falls  in the same controlled manner the only 3 buildings to fall due to fire ever



Actually when I read the report it first explained how the building was built and it became immediately obvious to me how it collapsed. In fact when I saw the fires building that day on TV I predicted that they would collapse- I just wasn't sure of the exact mechanism. The report's conclusion mirrors my own. 

What is this "series of highly improbable phenomenon all occurring one after the other" that you speak of? I predict that you don't really know and this just some line of bullshit that you read and decided to parrot back. So prove me wrong or lose credibility big time.


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## RetiredGySgt (Sep 23, 2008)

glockmail said:


> Actually when I read the report it first explained how the building was built and it became immediately obvious to me how it collapsed. In fact when I saw the fires building that day on TV I predicted that they would collapse- I just wasn't sure of the exact mechanism. The report's conclusion mirrors my own.
> 
> What is this "series of highly improbable phenomenon all occurring one after the other" that you speak of? I predict that you don't really know and this just some line of bullshit that you read and decided to parrot back. So prove me wrong or lose credibility big time.



He doesn't do information, except his cut and past jobs. When asked he just claims he is providing us with the information and we should read it our selves.


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## Uknow_me72 (Sep 23, 2008)

EOTS - Most these puppets are here just to waste your time and you will never win them over. You are doing a great job, just wax it up and get the move on. 

They will not believe you unless you show them your degree and credential's. We are not people of Authority to them, which they worship. They are taught to bow to the slave masters and no one else. The only way we can show them is to walk of the plantation.


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## glockmail (Sep 23, 2008)

Uknow_me72 said:


> EOTS - Most these puppets are here just to waste your time and you will never win them over. You are doing a great job, just wax it up and get the move on.
> 
> They will not believe you unless you show them your degree and credential's. We are not people of Authority to them, which they worship. They are taught to bow to the slave masters and no one else. The only way we can show them is to walk of the plantation.


Wow you're full of shit too. Nice try at cheer leading though. 

For proof, I'll extend my simple challenge to you as well: 

What is this "series of highly improbable phenomenon all occurring one after the other" that caused the WTC towers to go down? Answer in your own words or lose credibility. I don't care if you never passed the 8th grade. Come up with something remotely plausible.


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## jla1178 (Sep 23, 2008)

Uknow_me72 said:


> Most these puppets are here just to waste your time....



The pot calling the kettle black.


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## DiveCon (Sep 23, 2008)

Uknow_me72 said:


> EOTS - Most these puppets are here just to waste your time and you will never win them over. You are doing a great job, just wax it up and get the move on.
> 
> *They will not believe you unless you show them your degree and credential's.* We are not people of Authority to them, which they worship. They are taught to bow to the slave masters and no one else. The only way we can show them is to walk of the plantation.


 i dont care if he has 40 PhD's
hes still a fucking nutcase, the same as YOU


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## Uknow_me72 (Sep 23, 2008)

EOTS - You see all how all of them take offense and have to defend their views, they are now realizing that it is true but a mental block is making them act like those crying adults on the Jack in the Box commercial when they are hungry.


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## glockmail (Sep 23, 2008)

Uknow_me72 said:


> EOTS - You see all how all of them take offense and have to defend their views, they are now realizing that it is true but a mental block is making them act like those crying adults on the Jack in the Box commercial when they are hungry.


 I see that you didn't accept my simple intellectual challenge, but instead went back to cheer leading, then adding insults.


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## KittenKoder (Sep 23, 2008)

glockmail said:


> I see that you didn't accept my simple intellectual challenge, but instead went back to cheer leading, then adding insults.



It gets old, since morons like you just ignore real facts and science, choosing instead to focus on your lame book of myth. If you'd at least show a bit of intelligence and learn once in awhile you might be able to actually show the conspiracy nuts a thing or two, but all your other stances just show you are not better than they are.


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## glockmail (Sep 23, 2008)

KittenKoder said:


> It gets old, since morons like you just ignore real facts and science, choosing instead to focus on your lame book of myth. If you'd at least show a bit of intelligence and learn once in awhile you might be able to actually show the conspiracy nuts a thing or two, but all your other stances just show you are not better than they are.


 Read post 199 and get back to me sister.


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## DiveCon (Sep 23, 2008)

KittenKoder said:


> It gets old, since morons like you just ignore real facts and science, choosing instead to focus on your lame book of myth. If you'd at least show a bit of intelligence and learn once in awhile you might be able to actually show the conspiracy nuts a thing or two, but all your other stances just show you are not better than they are.


uh, someone didnt read the whole thread


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## KittenKoder (Sep 23, 2008)

glockmail said:


> Read post 199 and get back to me sister.



Picking and choosing which science you will not ignore does not make it any better, you still ignore science, and quite often. I know you religious nuts keep holding everyone else to the 'all or nothing' motto, why not yourselves?


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## DiveCon (Sep 23, 2008)

KittenKoder said:


> Picking and choosing which science you will not ignore does not make it any better, you still ignore science, and quite often. I know you religious nuts keep holding everyone else to the 'all or nothing' motto, why not yourselves?


WOW 

where did he say anything about religion?


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## KittenKoder (Sep 23, 2008)

DiveCon said:


> WOW
> 
> where did he say anything about religion?



He has voiced his religious ideals often in other places. Keep up.


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## DiveCon (Sep 23, 2008)

KittenKoder said:


> He has voiced his religious ideals often in other places. Keep up.


i dont read every thread on this forum
have no intention of doing so
but could you please point out what he said in THIS thread that had anything to do with religion and was mocking science?


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## Uknow_me72 (Sep 24, 2008)

glockmail -
Why should I get in your debate on request that won't sway the views of the world. I try to stick to subjects that will change the world not ones that will prove how a tower collapsed. Plenty of other people did that research and those debates, why do I need to go over it? Besides we have EOTS for that aspect.







Cheerleading is not my thing, I am a man of my own and keep the idols out of my life. I did offer a fellow man words of encouragement and a pat on the back because I can see the good in what he is trying to do.


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## glockmail (Sep 24, 2008)

KittenKoder said:


> Picking and choosing which science you will not ignore does not make it any better, you still ignore science, and quite often. I know you religious nuts keep holding everyone else to the 'all or nothing' motto, why not yourselves?


Actually I never ignore science. Now what exactly does religion have to do with this discussion of how the towers collapsed?


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## dilloduck (Sep 24, 2008)

glockmail said:


> Actually I never ignore science. Now what exactly does religion have to do with this discussion of how the towers collapsed?



allah told them to do it !


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## glockmail (Sep 24, 2008)

Uknow_me72 said:


> glockmail -
> Why should I get in your debate on request that won't sway the views of the world. I try to stick to subjects that will change the world not ones that will prove how a tower collapsed. Plenty of other people did that research and those debates, why do I need to go over it? Besides we have EOTS for that aspect.
> 
> 
> ...


 Sure man. Stoking a ridiculous conspiracy theory is a good thing.


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## Uknow_me72 (Sep 24, 2008)

Evolution is a Theory, the purposed creation of the universe is a Theory. Matter of fact pretty much every single scientific discovery is a THEORY....

So what makes a theory that there is a conspiracy going on that things are not what it looks like on the outside ridiculous if science theories are not?

Nothing...
Check your own logic on it. 

Can you trust everything that you have been taught by the education system and what the featured authorities in power that told you so?

Disregard it, you have been lied to. 

I am on the biggest conspiracy of them all. 9/11 is just a 1x1 sq in small piece of the picture when the picture is really a mural that is big as this galaxy.....


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## glockmail (Sep 24, 2008)

Uknow_me72 said:


> .....
> 
> I am on the biggest conspiracy of them all. 9/11 is just a 1x1 sq in small piece of the picture when the picture is really a mural that is big as this galaxy.....


 This explains a lot.


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## dilloduck (Sep 24, 2008)

glockmail said:


> This explains a lot.



Well he's the universe--hard to argue with that !


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## glockmail (Sep 24, 2008)

dilloduck said:


> Well he's the universe--hard to argue with that !


 There are some really fucked up people in this world.


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## DManInAZ (Sep 24, 2008)

_*wonders if this message board is just a theory*_


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## jla1178 (Sep 24, 2008)

Uknow_me72 said:


> Evolution is a Theory, the purposed creation of the universe is a Theory. Matter of fact pretty much every single scientific discovery is a THEORY....
> 
> So what makes a theory that there is a conspiracy going on that things are not what it looks like on the outside ridiculous if science theories are not?



Erroneous logic. You establish parameters to support your own conclusion.


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## KittenKoder (Sep 24, 2008)

*thinks it is*


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## eots (Sep 27, 2008)

QUOTE=glockmail;799734]There are some really fucked up people in this world. [/QUOTE]

yes and you are one of them holding up popular mechanics and the fema and 911 commission reports as fact.... when even those involved in the commission ,nist reports and fema have gone as far as to say...*cover up*and call for independent investigation or to write of the petition and concerns as these men and woman of service as a lack of intelligence or lunacy...divecon is just stupid he has a excuse...you another case..


http://patriotsquestion911.com/


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## dilloduck (Sep 27, 2008)

eots said:


> QUOTE=glockmail;799734]There are some really fucked up people in this world.



yes and you are one of them holding up popular mechanics and the fema and 911 commission reports as fact.... when even those involved in the commission ,nist reports and fema have gone as far as to say...*cover up*and call for independent investigation or to write of the petition and concerns as these men and woman of service as a lack of intelligence or lunacy...divecon is just stupid he has a excuse...you another case..


Patriots Question 9/11 - Responsible Criticism of the 9/11 Commission Report[/QUOTE]

ok ok --we did it--I give up


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## glockmail (Sep 29, 2008)

eots said:


> yes and you are one of them holding up popular mechanics and the fema and 911 commission reports as fact.... when even those involved in the commission ,nist reports and fema have gone as far as to say...*cover up*and call for independent investigation or to write of the petition and concerns as these men and woman of service as a lack of intelligence or lunacy...divecon is just stupid he has a excuse...you another case..



Surprise, surprise, you are repeating the same crap that you did last week, here: http://www.usmessageboard.com/795645-post198.html



> lets hear yours....mr popular mechanics..backed up with some kind of info other than popular mechanics



My reply, that you were unable to defend against, is therefore the same: http://www.usmessageboard.com/796121-post199.html



> Mine is the same as the conclusion of the American Society of Civil Engineers, of which I have been a member for almost 30 years. The unabated fires brought the buildings down: The floor trusses softened and drooped, the columns then lost lateral support and buckled at their weakest points, which were bolted connections in 20' lengths. When one 40' section gave way the building above that level dropped, "free fall", to the sections below, which were not designed to handle those dynamic loads. Therefore the failure progressed to the entire building.


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## eots (Sep 29, 2008)

[





> QUOTE=glockmail;809285]Surprise, surprise, you are repeating the same crap that you did last week, here: http://www.usmessageboard.com/795645-post198.html



because its true then and its true now...



> My reply, that you were unable to defend against, is therefore the same: http://www.usmessageboard.com/796121-post199.html


[/QUOTE]

there was nothing to defend... it is you that ignores the fact the inquiry's you support have been denounced as inadequate by people involved in the inquiry's themselves


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## glockmail (Sep 29, 2008)

eots said:


> there was nothing to defend... it is you that ignores the fact the inquiry's you support have been denounced as inadequate by people involved in the inquiry's themselves


 Prove it.


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## eots (Sep 29, 2008)

*Aug. 21, 2007: Former Chief of NIST's *Fire Science Division Calls for Independent Review of World Trade Center Investigation
PDF Version      Article on OpEdNews

Summary: James Quintiere, Ph.D., former Chief of NIST's Fire Science Division, called for an independent review of the World Trade Center Twin Tower collapse investigation. "I wish that there would be a peer review of this," he said, referring to the NIST investigation. "I think all the records that NIST has assembled should be archived. I would really like to see someone else take a look at what they've done; both structurally and from a fire point of view. ... I think the official conclusion that NIST arrived at is questionable." 


*Daniel Marcus &#8211; General Counsel of the 9-11 Commission.*  Former Partner in the Washington law firm of Wilmer, Cutler & Pickering.  Deputy General Counsel of the Department of Health, Education and Welfare, and General Counsel of the Department of Agriculture under President Jimmy Carter.  Senior Counsel in the White House Counsel's office under President William Clinton.  From 1999 to 2001 he held several senior positions at the Department of Justice, including Associate Attorney General.  Former Visiting Professor at Georgetown University Law Center.  Currently Fellow in Law and Government, Washington College of Law at American University. 
Article New York Times 12/6/07: "The Central Intelligence Agency in 2005 destroyed at least two videotapes documenting the interrogation of two Al Qaeda operatives in the agency&#8217;s custody, a step it took in the midst of Congressional and legal scrutiny about the C.I.A&#8217;s secret detention program, according to current and former government officials. ... 



Staff members of the Sept. 11 commission, which completed its work in 2004, expressed surprise when they were told that interrogation videotapes existed until 2005. 

&#8220;The commission did formally request material of this kind from all relevant agencies, and the commission was assured that we had received all the material responsive to our request,&#8221; said Philip D. Zelikow, who served as executive director of the Sept. 11 commission and later as a senior counselor to Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice. 

&#8220;No tapes were acknowledged or turned over, nor was the commission provided with any transcript prepared from recordings,&#8221; he said. 

*Daniel Marcus, a law professor at American University who served as general counsel for the Sept. 11 commission* and was involved in the discussions about interviews with Al Qaeda leaders, said he had heard nothing about any tapes being destroyed. 

If tapes were destroyed, he said, &#8220;it&#8217;s a big deal, it&#8217;s a very big deal,&#8221; because it could amount to *obstruction of justice *to *withhold evidence *being sought in criminal or fact-finding investigations." 
J

*ohn F. Lehman, Jr., PhD &#8211; 9/11 Commissioner.*  Former Secretary of the Navy 1981 - 1987.  Former staff member to Henry Kissinger on the National Security Council.  Member, Project for the New American Century (PNAC). 
Article Washington Post 8/2/06:  "Some staff members and commissioners of the Sept. 11 panel concluded that the Pentagon's initial story of how it reacted to the 2001 terrorist attacks may have been part of a *deliberate effort to mislead *the commission and the public rather than a reflection of the fog of events on that day, according to sources involved in the debate. ... 



"My view of that was that whether it was willful or just the fog of stupid bureaucracy, I don't know," Lehman said. "But in the order of magnitude of things, going after bureaucrats because they *misled the commission *didn't seem to make sense to me." 

*Lee Hamilton, Vice Chairman, 9/11 Commission &#8211; Former 17-term Congressman* from Indiana.  Former Chairman of the House Committee on Foreign Affairs and the Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence.  Currently President and Director of the Woodrow Wilson International Center for Scholars and serves as a member of the President's Homeland Security Advisory Council.

Stonewalled by the CIA by Thomas Kean and Lee Hamilton New York Times article 1/2/08: "More than five years ago, Congress and President Bush created the 9/11 commission. The goal was to provide the American people with the fullest possible account of the &#8220;facts and circumstances relating to the terrorist attacks of Sept. 11, 2001&#8221; &#8212; and to offer recommendations to prevent future attacks. Soon after its creation, the president&#8217;s chief of staff directed all executive branch agencies to cooperate with the commission. 

The commission&#8217;s mandate was sweeping and it explicitly included the intelligence agencies. But the recent revelations that the C.I.A. destroyed videotaped interrogations of Qaeda operatives leads us to conclude that the agency failed to respond to our lawful requests for information about the 9/11 plot. Those who knew about those videotapes &#8212; and did not tell us about them &#8212; obstructed our investigation. 

There could have been absolutely no doubt in the mind of anyone at the C.I.A. &#8212; or the White House &#8212; of the commission&#8217;s interest in any and all information related to Qaeda detainees involved in the 9/11 plot. Yet no one in the administration ever told the commission of the existence of videotapes of detainee interrogations. ... 

As a legal matter, it is not up to us to examine the C.I.A.&#8217;s failure to disclose the existence of these tapes. That is for others. What we do know is that government officials decided not to inform a lawfully constituted body, created by Congress and the president, to investigate one the greatest tragedies to confront this country. *We call that obstruction." *J.



* Terrence "Terry" Brunner &#8211; Former prosecutor in the Organized Crime and Racketeering Section of the U.S. Justice Department and a key member of Attorney General Bobby Kennedy&#8217;s anti-corruption task force.*  Former assistant U.S. Attorney for the Northern District of Illinois.    Former Executive Director of the Better Government Association 1971 - 2000.  Currently Director, Aviation Integrity Project. 
Article CBS News 3/5/03:  "Here we've got the most important event in America in the past 50 years, the most horrible thing that's happened to Americans, and yet we pick a bunch of people who are connected to the very people who are at the center of the question of who's at fault," says Terry Brunner, a former federal prosecutor who now runs the Aviation Integrity Project in Chicago. "It's ridiculous." 

Brunner checked out the commissioners and discovered that out of 10, at least six represent the very companies they're now investigating. 

He says they are: "Fred Fielding, Spirit Airlines, United Airlines; Slade Gordon represents Delta Airlines; Sen. Max Cleland &#8211; $300,000 from the airline industry; Jim Thompson represents American Airlines; Richard Ben-Veniste represents Boeing and United Airlines; and Rep. Tim Roemer - Boeing and Lockheed Martin." 

"They're all up to here, with either being connected to the airlines or to the manufacturer of the airplane," says Brunner. 

One of the commissioners, former Illinois Gov. Jim Thompson, once represented United and still counsels American - the very airlines involved in the Sept. 11 attack. 

"The issue of my firm's representing American shouldn't be taken too far," says Thompson. "I don't think the commission as a whole is conflicted." 

"When you've got six out of the ten people, a majority of the group, are connected in that way, how can they make an honest call?" asks Brunner." CBS News - Breaking News Headlines: Business, Entertainment & World News 


* Morgan Reynolds, PhD &#8211; Chief Economist, U.S. Department of Labor under George W. Bush 2001 - 2002.  Former Director of the Criminal Justice Center *at the National Center for Policy Analysis.  Professor Emeritus, Economics, Texas A&M University. 

Contributing author to 9/11 and American Empire (Vol I) &#8211; Intellectuals Speak Out (2006). 
Video interview with Alex Jones 6/2/06: "I first began to suspect that 9/11 was in inside job when the Bush-Cheney Administration invaded Iraq. &#8230; We can prove that the government&#8217;s story is false."  http://video.goo 


Essay 6/9/05: "It is hard to exaggerate the importance of a scientific debate over the cause(s) of the collapse of the twin towers [each 1300+ feet tall, 110 stories] and building 7. If the official wisdom on the collapses is wrong, as I believe it is, then policy based on such erroneous engineering analysis is not likely [to] prove to be sound."  http://www.l...   


Patriots Question 9/11 - Responsible Criticism of the 9/11 Commission Report


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## dilloduck (Sep 29, 2008)

but why bother using planes ?


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## eots (Sep 29, 2008)

that question was asked and answered...its a stupid question..do you  think apollo astronaut..and top gun instructors..NORAD directors.. are to stupid to ask themselves your stupid repetitive question

OPERATION NORTHWOODS: US PLANNED FAKE TERROR ATTACKS ON CITIZENS TO CREATE SUPPORT FOR CUBAN WAR


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## dilloduck (Sep 29, 2008)

eots said:


> that question was asked and answered...its a stupid question..do you  think apollo astronaut..and top gun instructors..NORAD directors.. are to stupid to ask themselves your stupid repetitive question
> 
> OPERATION NORTHWOODS: US PLANNED FAKE TERROR ATTACKS ON CITIZENS TO CREATE SUPPORT FOR CUBAN WAR



 I read that already--why didn't they jsut blow the damn buildings ?


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## DiveCon (Sep 29, 2008)

OK

the Op Northwoods plan was to FAKE the shooting down of a plane and claim the Cubans did it(and this plan was not only rejected, but the man behind the plan was FIRED)

the Op Conspiracy nut is that the plan was to kill over 3000 of our own citizens
yeah, there is such an equivalency there


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## eots (Sep 29, 2008)

*Capt. Daniel Davis, U.S. Army &#8211; Former U.S. Army Air Defense Officer and NORAD Tac Director.  Decorated with the Bronze Star and the Soldiers Medal for bravery under fire and the Purple Heart for injuries sustained in Viet Nam.*  Also served in the Army Air Defense Command as Nike Missile Battery Control Officer for the Chicago-Milwaukee Defense Area.  Founder and former CEO of Turbine Technology Services Corp., a turbine (jet engine) services and maintenance company (15 years).  Former Senior Manager at General Electric Turbine (jet) Engine Division (15 years).  Private pilot.

Statement to this website 3/23/07: "As a former General Electric Turbine engineering specialist and manager and then CEO of a turbine engineering company, I can guarantee that none of the high tech, high temperature alloy engines on any of the four planes that crashed on 9/11 would be completely destroyed, burned, shattered or melted in any crash or fire.  Wrecked, yes, but not destroyed.  Where are all of those engines, particularly at the Pentagon?  If jet powered aircraft crashed on 9/11, those engines, plus wings and tail assembly, would be there. 

Additionally, in my experience as an officer in NORAD as a Tactical Director for the Chicago-Milwaukee Air Defense and as a current private pilot, there is no way that an aircraft on instrument flight plans (all commercial flights are IFR) would not be intercepted when they deviate from their flight plan, turn off their transponders, or stop communication with Air Traffic Control.  No way!  With very bad luck, perhaps one could slip by, but no there's no way all four of them could! 


*ya but why did they use planes..yuk yuk got ya there mister nor-rad...!*


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## eots (Sep 29, 2008)

[*QUOTE=DiveCon;811297]OK

the Op Northwoods plan was to FAKE the shooting down of a plane and claim the Cubans did it(and this plan was not only rejected, but the man behind the plan was FIRED) 
the Op Conspiracy nut is that the plan was to kill over 3000 of our own citizens
yeah, there is such an equivalency there*

_the man_..you mean,,, ol whats him name...he was fired ..was he....intresting


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## dilloduck (Sep 29, 2008)

eots said:


> *Capt. Daniel Davis, U.S. Army  Former U.S. Army Air Defense Officer and NORAD Tac Director.  Decorated with the Bronze Star and the Soldiers Medal for bravery under fire and the Purple Heart for injuries sustained in Viet Nam.*  Also served in the Army Air Defense Command as Nike Missile Battery Control Officer for the Chicago-Milwaukee Defense Area.  Founder and former CEO of Turbine Technology Services Corp., a turbine (jet engine) services and maintenance company (15 years).  Former Senior Manager at General Electric Turbine (jet) Engine Division (15 years).  Private pilot.
> 
> Statement to this website 3/23/07: "As a former General Electric Turbine engineering specialist and manager and then CEO of a turbine engineering company, I can guarantee that none of the high tech, high temperature alloy engines on any of the four planes that crashed on 9/11 would be completely destroyed, burned, shattered or melted in any crash or fire.  Wrecked, yes, but not destroyed.  Where are all of those engines, particularly at the Pentagon?  If jet powered aircraft crashed on 9/11, those engines, plus wings and tail assembly, would be there.
> 
> ...



You tricky bastard


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## DiveCon (Sep 29, 2008)

eots said:


> *Capt. Daniel Davis, U.S. Army  Former U.S. Army Air Defense Officer and NORAD Tac Director. Decorated with the Bronze Star and the Soldiers Medal for bravery under fire and the Purple Heart for injuries sustained in Viet Nam.* Also served in the Army Air Defense Command as Nike Missile Battery Control Officer for the Chicago-Milwaukee Defense Area. Founder and former CEO of Turbine Technology Services Corp., a turbine (jet engine) services and maintenance company (15 years). Former Senior Manager at General Electric Turbine (jet) Engine Division (15 years). Private pilot.
> 
> Statement to this website 3/23/07: "As a former General Electric Turbine engineering specialist and manager and then CEO of a turbine engineering company, *I can guarantee that none of the high tech, high temperature alloy engines on any of the four planes that crashed on 9/11 would be completely destroyed, burned, shattered or melted in any crash or fire. Wrecked, yes, but not destroyed. Where are all of those engines,* particularly at the Pentagon? If jet powered aircraft crashed on 9/11, those engines, plus wings and tail assembly, would be there.
> 
> ...


ah, so no planes hit
i get it now


----------



## eots (Sep 29, 2008)

divecon said:


> ah, So No Planes Hit
> I Get It Now



*wtf*..are You Talking About...YES there where planes..planes hit the trade center..the pentagon is questionable..and not one picture or piece of physical evidence has been produced to prove a plane hit the pentagon..and more importantly a director of NORAD fells it impossible for 4  hijacked planes to fly across the nation unimpeded


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## DiveCon (Sep 29, 2008)

dilloduck said:


> You tricky bastard


hey, he got us there
they didnt use planes


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## DiveCon (Sep 29, 2008)

eots said:


> *wtf*..are You Talking About...


your guy said that no engines were found and that since they wouldnt be totally destroyed, how could they use planes?
i'm just following with what you posted


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## eots (Sep 29, 2008)

Col. Michael Harley, U.S. Air Force (ret) &#8211; Retired Chief of Standardization of a Strategic Air Command Wing equipped with Boeing B-52 bombers, Boeing RC-135 reconnaissance aircraft and Boeing KC-135 Stratotankers.  Command pilot and U.S. Air Force accident investigator.  6,000+ total hours flown.  Aircraft flown: Boeing B-52 Stratofortress bomber, Lockheed C130A, B, E,& prototype H Hercules, K-135 Stratotanker, DeHavilland U6 Beaver, Lockheed T-33 Shooting Star, Cessna T-37 Dragonfly "Tweet", Northrup T-38 Talon, North American T-39 Sabreliner, Bell UH-1 Iroquois "Huey" Helicopter.  26 years commissioned officer and 34 total years of U.S. Air Force service.  Former Instructor, Accident Investigation, Embry-Riddle Aeronautical University.  Management analyst and IG.  Simulator instructor.  Instructor Pilot and Standardization Evaluation Pilot.  Civilian aircraft flown: Cessna 177, Beechcraft Twin Bonanza, Piper Cherokee-6.  Newspaper columnist and freelance writer. 
Member: Pilots for 9/11 Truth  Association Statement: "Pilots for 9/11 Truth is an organization of aviation professionals and pilots throughout the globe that have gathered together for one purpose. We are committed to seeking the truth surrounding the events of the 11th of September 2001. Our main focus concentrates on the four flights, maneuvers performed and the reported pilots. We do not offer theory or point blame. However, we are focused on determining the truth of that fateful day since the United States Government doesn't seem to be very forthcoming with answers." 


*Major Jon I. Fox, U.S. Marine Corps &#8211; Former Marine Corps fighter pilot, including interceptor pilot.  Retired commercial airline pilot, Continental Airlines.  Aircraft flown: Boeing 727, McDonnell Douglas DC-10, LearJet.  35-year commercial aviation career. 
Statement to this website 6/3/08: *

"Recent research proves that explosives were used at the World Trade Center.  Flight paths and maneuvers of the aircraft involved at the Pentagon and Shanksville do not match NTSB released flight data recordings.  Shouldn't there be a criminal investigation before more lives and trillions of dollars are wasted?" 




*Statement in support of Architects and Engineers petition: *

"On hearing the military (NORAD/NEAD) excuses for no intercepts on 9/11/2001, I knew from personal experience that they were lying.  I then began re-checking other evidence and found mostly more lies from the "official spokesmen".  Jet fuel fires at atmospheric pressure do not get hot enough to weaken steel. Structures do not collapse through themselves in free fall time with only gravity as the powering force."  AE911Truth 


*Lt. Col. Karen U. Kwiatkowski, PhD, U.S. Air Force (ret) &#8211; Former Political-Military Affairs Officer in the Office of the Secretary of Defense*. Also served on the staff of the Director of the National Security Agency. 20-year Air Force career.  Member adjunct faculty, Political Science Department, James Madison University.  Instructor, University of Maryland University College and American Public University System.  Author of African Crisis Response Initiative: Past Present and Future (2000) and Expeditionary Air Operations in Africa: Challenges and Solutions (2001). 
Contributor to 9/11 and American Empire: Intellectuals Speak Out 8/23/06:  Account of *Lt. Col. Karen Kwiatkowski, Pentagon employee and eyewitness* to the events at the Pentagon on 9/11.  "I believe the Commission failed to deeply examine the topic at hand, failed to apply scientific rigor to its assessment of events leading up to and including 9/11, failed to produce a believable and unbiased summary of what happened, failed to fully examine why it happened, and even failed to include a set of unanswered questions for future research. ... 

It is as a scientist that I have the most trouble with the official government conspiracy theory, mainly because it does not satisfy the rules of probability or physics.  The collapses of the World Trade Center buildings clearly violate the laws of probability and physics. ... 

There was a dearth of visible debris on the relatively unmarked [Pentagon] lawn, where I stood only minutes after the impact.  Beyond this strange absence of airliner debris, there was no sign of the kind of damage to the Pentagon structure one would expect from the impact of a large airliner. This visible evidence or lack thereof may also have been apparent to the secretary of defense [Donald Rumsfeld], who in an unfortunate slip of the tongue referred to the aircraft that slammed into the Pentagon as a "missile". ... 

I saw nothing of significance at the point of impact - no airplane metal or cargo debris was blowing on the lawn in front of the damaged building as smoke billowed from within the Pentagon. ... all of us staring at the Pentagon that morning were indeed looking for such debris, but what we expected to see was not evident. 

The same is true with regard to the kind of damage we expected. ... But I did not see this kind of damage. Rather, the facade had a rather small hole, no larger than 20 feet in diameter. Although this facade later collapsed, it remained standing for 30 or 40 minutes, with the roof line remaining relatively straight.  

The scene, in short, was not what I would have expected from a strike by a large jetliner. It was, however, exactly what one would expect if a missile had struck the Pentagon. ... 

More information is certainly needed regarding the events of 9/11 and the events leading up to that terrible day." 

*
Col. George Nelson, MBA, U.S. Air Force (ret) &#8211; Former U.S. Air Force aircraft accident investigator and airplane parts authority.  Graduate, U.S. Air Force War College.  34-year Air Force career. *

Licensed commercial pilot.  Licensed airframe and powerplant mechanic. 
Essay: "In all my years of direct and indirect participation, I never witnessed nor even heard of an aircraft loss, where the wreckage was accessible, that prevented investigators from finding enough hard evidence to positively identify the make, model, and specific registration number of the aircraft -- and in most cases the precise cause of the accident. ... 

The government alleges that four wide-body airliners crashed on the morning of September 11 2001, resulting in the deaths of more than 3,000 human beings, yet not one piece of hard aircraft evidence has been produced in an attempt to positively identify any of the four aircraft. On the contrary, it seems only that all potential evidence was deliberately kept hidden from public view. &#8230; 

With all the evidence readily available at the Pentagon crash site, any unbiased rational investigator could only conclude that a Boeing 757 did not fly into the Pentagon as alleged. Similarly, with all the evidence available at the Pennsylvania crash site, it was most doubtful that a passenger airliner caused the obvious hole in the ground and certainly not the Boeing 757 as alleged. &#8230; 

As painful and heartbreaking as was the loss of innocent lives and the lingering health problems of thousands more, a most troublesome and nightmarish probability remains that so many Americans appear to be involved in the most heinous conspiracy in our country's history."   Physics911, by Scientific Panel Investigating Nine-Eleven, 9/11/2001


----------



## dilloduck (Sep 29, 2008)

eots said:


> Col. Michael Harley, U.S. Air Force (ret)  Retired Chief of Standardization of a Strategic Air Command Wing equipped with Boeing B-52 bombers, Boeing RC-135 reconnaissance aircraft and Boeing KC-135 Stratotankers.  Command pilot and U.S. Air Force accident investigator.  6,000+ total hours flown.  Aircraft flown: Boeing B-52 Stratofortress bomber, Lockheed C130A, B, E,& prototype H Hercules, K-135 Stratotanker, DeHavilland U6 Beaver, Lockheed T-33 Shooting Star, Cessna T-37 Dragonfly "Tweet", Northrup T-38 Talon, North American T-39 Sabreliner, Bell UH-1 Iroquois "Huey" Helicopter.  26 years commissioned officer and 34 total years of U.S. Air Force service.  Former Instructor, Accident Investigation, Embry-Riddle Aeronautical University.  Management analyst and IG.  Simulator instructor.  Instructor Pilot and Standardization Evaluation Pilot.  Civilian aircraft flown: Cessna 177, Beechcraft Twin Bonanza, Piper Cherokee-6.  Newspaper columnist and freelance writer.
> Member: Pilots for 9/11 Truth  Association Statement: "Pilots for 9/11 Truth is an organization of aviation professionals and pilots throughout the globe that have gathered together for one purpose. We are committed to seeking the truth surrounding the events of the 11th of September 2001. Our main focus concentrates on the four flights, maneuvers performed and the reported pilots. We do not offer theory or point blame. However, we are focused on determining the truth of that fateful day since the United States Government doesn't seem to be very forthcoming with answers."
> 
> *Major Jon I. Fox, U.S. Marine Corps  Former Marine Corps fighter pilot, including interceptor pilot.  Retired commercial airline pilot, Continental Airlines.  Aircraft flown: Boeing 727, McDonnell Douglas DC-10, LearJet.  35-year commercial aviation career.
> ...




how come they didnt use explosives ?


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## eots (Sep 29, 2008)

*All good questions dildo..perhaps we should support the intelligent..exceptional  men and woman's request for a real investigation as they also have some extremely important unanswered questions*

Letter to Congress regarding the 9/11 Commission Report 9/13/04, signed by the following 25 military, intelligence, and law enforcement veterans: http://www.pogo.org/ [/B]

"[W]e the undersigned wish to bring to the attention of the Congress and the people of the United States what we believe are serious shortcomings in the report and its recommendations. &#8230; 

Omission is one of the major flaws in the Commission&#8217;s report.  We are aware of significant issues and cases that were duly reported to the commission by those of us with direct knowledge, but somehow escaped attention. &#8230; 

The omission of such serious and applicable issues and information by itself renders the report flawed, and casts doubt on the validity of many of its recommendations. ... 

The Commission, with its incomplete report of "facts and circumstances", intentional avoidance of assigning accountability, and disregard for the knowledge, expertise and experience of those who actually do the job, has now set about pressuring our Congress and our nation to hastily implement all its recommendations. ... 

We the undersigned, who have worked within various government agencies (FBI, CIA, FAA, DIA, Customs) responsible for national security and public safety, call upon you in Congress to include the voices of those with first-hand knowledge and expertise in the important issues at hand.  We stand ready to do our part." http://www.pogo.org/


Edward J. Costello, Jr. &#8211; Former Special Agent, Counterterrorism, FBI.  Former Judge pro tem., Los Angeles, CA. 


John M. Cole &#8211; Former Intelligence Operations Specialist, in the FBI&#8217;s Counterintelligence Division.  In charge of FBI&#8217;s foreign intelligence investigations covering India, Pakistan and Afghanistan. 18-year FBI career. 


Mark Conrad, JD &#8211; Retired Agent in Charge, Internal Affairs, U.S. Customs, responsible for the internal integrity and security for areas encompassing nine states and two foreign locations.  Former Federal Sky Marshall.  27-year U.S. Customs career.  Currently Associate General Counsel, National Association of Federal Agents.  Assistant Professor of Criminal Justice at Troy University.


Rosemary N. Dew &#8211; Former Supervisory Special Agent, Counterterrorism and Counterintelligence, FBI.  Former member of The President's National Security Telecommunications Advisory Committee (NSTAC) and the Electronic Commerce/Cyber Crime Working Group. 13-year FBI career. 


Bogdan Dzakovic &#8211; Witness before the 9/11 Commission.  14-year Counter-terrorism expert in the Security Division of the Federal Aviation Administration.  Team Leader of the FAA's Red (Terrorism) Team, which conducted undercover tests on airport security through simulated terrorist attacks.  Former Team Leader in the Federal Air Marshal program.  Former Coast Guard officer.  (See also individual statement above.)


Sibel D. Edmonds &#8211; Witness before the 9/11 Commission.  Former Language Translation Specialist, performing translations for counterterrorism and counterintelligence operations, FBI.  (See also individual statement above.)


Steve Elson &#8211; Former Special Agent with the U.S. Navy and the FAA. Specialist in Counterterrorism, Intelligence, and Security.  Twenty-two years military experience, primarily in Naval Special Warfare and nine years Federal service with the FAA and DEA.  Retired Navy SEAL. (See also individual statement above.)


David Forbes &#8211; Former head of Thames Valley Police Fraud Squad, trained at New Scotland Yard.  Over 30 years experience in law enforcement, commercial and industrial security-related risk management, and service sector business management.  Currently Aviation, Logistics and Govt. Security Analyst, BoydForbes, Inc.


Melvin A. Goodman &#8211; Former Division Chief and Senior Analyst at the Office of Soviet Affairs, CIA,1966 - 1990.  Senior Analyst at the Bureau of Intelligence and Research, State Department, 1974 - 1976.  Professor of International Security at the National War College 1986 - 2004.  Currently Senior Fellow at the Center for International Policy and Adjunct Professor of International Relations at Johns Hopkins University. He is the author and co-author of five books on international relations. (See also individual statement above.)


Mark Graf &#8211; Former Security Supervisor, Planner, and Derivative Classifier, Department of Energy.  Former Chairman of the Rocky Flats (DOE) Physical Security Systems Working Group from 1990 through 1995.


Gilbert M. Graham &#8211; Retired Special Agent, Counterintelligence, FBI. 24-year FBI career. 


Diane Kleiman &#8211; Former Special Agent, US Customs.


Lt. Col. Karen U. Kwiatkowski, PhD, U.S. Air Force (ret) &#8211; Former Political-Military Affairs Officer in the Office of the Secretary of Defense. Also served on the staff of the Director of the National Security Agency. 20-year Air Force veteran.  (See also individual statement above.)


Lynne A. Larkin &#8211; Former CIA Operations Officer.  Served in several CIA foreign stations and in the CIA's counter-intelligence center helping chair a multi-agency task force and seminars on coordinating intelligence among intelligence and crime prevention agencies.


David MacMichael, PhD &#8211; Former Senior Estimates Officer with special responsibility for Western Hemisphere Affairs at the CIA's National Intelligence Council.  Former Captain, U.S. Marine Corps.


Raymond L. McGovern &#8211; Former Chairman, National Intelligence Estimates, CIA, responsible for preparing the President&#8217; Daily Brief (PDB) for Ronald Reagan and George H.W. Bush.  27-year CIA veteran. Former U.S. Army Intelligence Officer.  (See also individual statement above.)


Theodore J. Pahle &#8211; Former Senior Intelligence Officer with the Defense Intelligence Agency.  His 37-year intelligence career was exclusively as a HUMINT (Human Intelligence) operations officer with DIA, Office of Naval Intelligence and U.S. Army Intelligence.  He is a Middle East and Latin American operations specialist.  Today, he continues to support the HUMINT effort as a contract instructor.


Behrooz Sarshar &#8211; Retired Language Translation Specialist, performing Farsi translations for counterterrorism and counterintelligence operations dealing with Iran and Afghanistan, FBI.


Brian F. Sullivan &#8211; Retired Special Agent and Risk Management Specialist, FAA.  Retired Lieutenant Colonel, Military Police.


Commander Larry J. Tortorich, U.S. Navy (ret) &#8211; Former Deputy Program Manager for Logistics &#8211; Tomahawk Cruise Missiles.  24-year Navy career in the fields of aviation and counterterrorism.  Two years as a federal employee with DHS/TSA in the fields of security and counterterrorism.  


Jane A. Turner &#8211; Retired Special Agent, FBI.  24-year FBI career. 


John B. Vincent &#8211; Retired Special Agent, Counterterrorism, FBI.  27-year FBI career.


Fred Whitehurst, JD, PhD &#8211; Retired Supervisory Special Agent / Laboratory Forensic Examiner, FBI.  16-year FBI career.  Former U.S. Army Intelligence Officer. 


Col. Ann Wright, U.S. Army (ret) &#8211; Retired Army officer and former U.S. Diplomat.  Served 13 years on active duty with the U.S. Army and 16 years in the U.S. Army Reserves.  She was a member of the International law team in Operation Urgent Fury in Grenada and served in Panama and Somalia.  She joined the Foreign Service in 1987 and served as Deputy Chief of Mission of U.S. Embassies in Sierra Leone, Micronesia and Afghanistan.  She helped reopen the US Embassy in Kabul in December, 2001.  One of three U.S. State Department officials to publicly resign in direct protest of the invasion of Iraq in March, 2003.  (See also individual statement above.)


Matthew J. Zipoli &#8211; Special Response Team (SRT) Officer, DOE.   Vice President, Security Police Officer's Association, Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory 
Patriots Question 9/11 - Responsible Criticism of the 9/11 Commission Report


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## UN=con (Sep 29, 2008)

What about Barry Jennings who was killed by the government for exposing that there is bombs in the buildings.  He gives a detailed view of what he saw that day.  Search on youtube for barry jennings and hear what inside building WTC 7 was like.  Also on an interesting note building wtc 7 was demolished in a controlled demolition because none of the debris from building 1 and 2 ever hit the building wtc 7.  It is clear from barry jennings account of the events of that day that 911 was an inside job and if you dont believe this maybe you are delusional.


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## eots (Sep 29, 2008)

World Exclusive: WTC7 Survivor Barry Jennings Account

[ame=http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=kRaKHq2dfCI]YouTube - World Exclusive: WTC7 Survivor Barry Jennings Account[/ame]


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## eots (Sep 29, 2008)

Who was John O'Neill? He was The Man Who Knew

[ame=http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=Q9FuI2ixZT4]YouTube - Who was John O'Neill? He was The Man Who Knew[/ame]

Alex Jones Tv:"Mysterious Death of Barry Jennings"



[ame=http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=ris8OGSskCk]YouTube - Alex Jones Tv:"Mysterious Death of Barry Jennings"[/ame]


The Senator Wellstone Assassination

[ame=http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=3Vbf49kzWFw]YouTube - The Senator Wellstone Assassination[/ame]


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## glockmail (Sep 30, 2008)

glockmail said:


> Prove it.


I'm still waiting. What engineers who reported for ASCE denounced its findings? Your smokescreen can't hide your non-response, *eots*.


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## sylverfoxx (Oct 7, 2008)

It could very easily have  been accomplished by the US CIA and Israeli Mossad working together in secrecy. Do a little research on the security companies in charge of the World Trade Center and the airports from which the planes supposedly departed. Notice the Bush family connections and Israeli involvement before blindly accepting the load of crap the mainstream media feeds you.


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## RetiredGySgt (Oct 7, 2008)

DiveCon said:


> your guy said that no engines were found and that since they wouldnt be totally destroyed, how could they use planes?
> i'm just following with what you posted



You have made the mistake of actually paying attention to what he says and claims. His conspiracy works only so long as you just nod your head and agree. FACTS? Who needs facts? they just make them up as they go along. The man claims NO engines were recovered at ANY site and so no planes were used and Eots says ONLY the Pentagon.

It is like his claim of no debris at the Pentagon, he used to list as a source a person that claimed lots of debris was at the Pentagon but that it was all from the wrong plane, I ask him how he could list that along side the one that claimed no debris and guess what? He quit posting the one about the wrong Debris.

Again pay no attention to the details, just nod your head sagely and agree with Eots.


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## glockmail (Oct 7, 2008)

sylverfoxx said:


> It could very easily have  been accomplished by the US CIA and Israeli Mossad working together in secrecy. Do a little research on the security companies in charge of the World Trade Center and the airports from which the planes supposedly departed. Notice the Bush family connections and Israeli involvement before blindly accepting the load of crap the mainstream media feeds you.


 Bullshit. Do you own damn research.


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## eots (Jan 17, 2009)

Video "Demolition Expert" | sevenload


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## DiveCon (Jan 17, 2009)

eots said:


> Video "Demolition Expert" | sevenload


ROFLMAO
so, because a building that was prepared for demo(they REMOVE the glass on the floor where they place explosives) didnt have windows breaking, you think that proves the expert WRONG

omg you are more moronic that i used to believe
how do you manage to actually function


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## Big_D (Jan 17, 2009)

eots said:


> Video "Demolition Expert" | sevenload



Once again Divecon is right on the nose.

If someone would view the clip, the demolition expert clearly said that the _individual_ explosive (the one he is holding in his hand at the beginning of the clip) that would have had to be used to bring the WTC building down would have caused the windows to break.   This doesnt mean that the explosives used to demolish the other buildings shown also used this exact same explosive.  See the difference?


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## DiveCon (Jan 17, 2009)

Big_D said:


> Once again Divecon is right on the nose.
> 
> If someone would view the clip, the demolition expert clearly said that the _individual_ explosive (the one he is holding in his hand at the beginning of the clip) that would have had to be used to bring the WTC building down would have caused the windows to break.   This doesnt mean that the explosives used to demolish the other buildings shown also used this exact same explosive.  See the difference?


actually, if you look closely at the building in the video, you will see the floors that had the explosives had the windows removed
they ALWAYS do that for explosive demos, that LAST thing you want is shards of glass flying all over the place


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## Mr. Jones (Jan 22, 2009)

dilloduck said:


> Do you mean to tell me that flying an airliner into each of the twin towers might not have been enough so they rigged them to blow for added effect ???


 I think the biggest conspiracy theory is the so called "official version" the 9-11 commission came up with. There's just too many questions that haven't been answered. This was a plan that was hatched by the members of PNAC (The Project For A New American Century) a long time ago, which called for a catalyzing event like another Pearl Harbor to kick things off in the conquest of the middle east. They had plenty of time to sort out the details. As soon as I watched the towers come down that day I thought it looked like a CD, and so did everyone else I knew. 
And then they didn't even attempt to explain WTC 7?
Never in history has a steel structured building collapsed due to fire. That was what really got me to look into it more, and solidified my belief that you can't trust the government, and it doesn't matter who is president, I mean CEO


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## Godboy (Jan 22, 2009)

> This was a plan that was hatched by the members of PNAC (The Project For A New American Century) a long time ago, which called for a catalyzing event like another Pearl Harbor to kick things off in the conquest of the middle east.



So this super secret organization thought it was a good idea to put an official name to an organization they never wanted anyone to know about? That seems like a major oversight on their part. Not only that, you also know how long theyve been planning this? Man, you shoulda told someone before 9/11 went down, you would have been a hero! Whats even more amazing is YOU were able to find out who these super secret people were with only the internet at your disposal! Jack Bauer could use your computer skills if Chloe ever dies.


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## DiveCon (Jan 22, 2009)

Godboy said:


> So this super secret organization thought it was a good idea to put an official name to an organization they never wanted anyone to know about? That seems like a major oversight on their part. Not only that, they are so terrible at keeping secrets, you also know how long theyve been planning this? Man, you shoulda told someone before 9/11 went down, you would have been a hero! Whats even more amazing is YOU were able to find out who these super secret people were with only the internet at your disposal! Jack Bauer could use your computer skills if Chloe ever dies.


not only that, the bastards put it on the INTERNET


Welcome to the Project for the New American Century


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## eots (Jan 22, 2009)

Godboy said:


> So this super secret organization thought it was a good idea to put an official name to an organization they never wanted anyone to know about? That seems like a major oversight on their part. Not only that, they are so terrible at keeping secrets, you also know how long theyve been planning this? Man, you shoulda told someone before 9/11 went down, you would have been a hero! Whats even more amazing is YOU were able to find out who these super secret people were with only the internet at your disposal! Jack Bauer could use your computer skills if Chloe ever dies.



they know your so programed and ill informed they have little fear and they indeed speak of their plans openly


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## Godboy (Jan 22, 2009)

> they know your so programed and ill informed they have little fear and they indeed speak of their plans openly



Really? I cant believe i didnt already know about this stuff. This is amazing!  I got to check this out...so where can i find videos of these "open" discussions? I checked youtube with no luck.

Hey, while you are giving us the links to this proof of yours, you should also send them to the FBI. They need to know about this too so they can arrest these people right now! You are going to be a HERO eots!!

...and someday ill be able to tell my grandchildren that i once spoke to you over an internet discussion board! Ok, i got to go now, im going to go call all of my friends and tell them about this!


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## Mr. Jones (Jan 22, 2009)

Godboy said:


> So this super secret organization thought it was a good idea to put an official name to an organization they never wanted anyone to know about? That seems like a major oversight on their part. Not only that, they are so terrible at keeping secrets, you also know how long theyve been planning this? Man, you shoulda told someone before 9/11 went down, you would have been a hero! Whats even more amazing is YOU were able to find out who these super secret people were with only the internet at your disposal! Jack Bauer could use your computer skills if Chloe ever dies.


The PNAC doesnt have these plans for 9-11 specifically  If you read it you'll see what I mean. It's an interesting read check it out.
_Once upon a time in an office rented to them by the American Heritage Foundation, a group of powerful men directly connected to the halls of the capital and the defense and energy industry formed a fringe rightwing organization based loosely on the teachings of Leo Strauss. They called themselves the Project for the New American Century._
_Unsurprisingly these three exceedingly conservative foundations have strong ties to weapons manufacturing and several members of the Project are former CEOs and board members of defense contractors and energy companies. (Halliburton, Trireme, Bechtel, etc.)_
_These guys drew up a plan for using our role as last remaining super power to expand their respective global markets through force..._
A brief history of the PNAC: a refresher « Project for the Old American Century blog


----------



## RetiredGySgt (Jan 22, 2009)

Once again for the slow and stupid, the number of people that would have to be involved in the Government planning and executing 9/11 is so high it would be impossible to believe no one has talked by now. It would have to include Military, civilian, State, Federal , County and City employees. It would have to include FBI and all intel groups. It would also have to include foreign Governments and their intel groups. Further exactly where did they find the suicidal people to fly the planes into buildings?


----------



## Mr. Jones (Jan 23, 2009)

Just a thought, wouldn't people naturally be afraid to talk if they were threatened with extortion, harm or even death. What of their families? Individuals who would do something on the scale of 9-11 would have to be  cold blooded heartless SOBs, with some serious pull, who presumably would have the ability to shut anybody up. These men would have to be some very powerful people with serious connections.
*"A group of powerful men directly connected to the halls of the capital and the defense and energy industry" 
"Unsurprisingly these three exceedingly conservative foundations have strong ties to weapons manufacturing and several members of the Project are former CEOs and board members of defense contractors and energy companies. (Halliburton, Trireme, Bechtel, etc.)"*
These are the heavies of the heavies on the world stage
with unlimited access to whatever would be needed. 
Especially hush money-
*On September 10, 2001, Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld held a press conference to disclose that over $2,000,000,000,000 in Pentagon funds could not be accounted for. Rumsfeld stated: "According to some estimates we cannot track $2.3 trillion in transactions." According to a report by the Inspector General, the Pentagon cannot account for 25 percent of what it spends. 

Such a disclosure normally might have sparked a huge scandal. However, the commencement of the attack on New York City and Washington in the morning would assure that the story remained buried. To the trillions already missing from the coffers, an obedient Congress terrorized by anthrax attacks would add billions more in appropriations to fight the "War on Terror."*

There were some who tried to speak out-
*Aug 27, 2001: An FBI supervisor tries to ensure that a hijacker doesn't "take control of a plane and fly it into the World Trade Center." Headquarters chastises him for notifying the CIA. *
http://www.wanttoknow.info/021017senateic.pdf
TIME Magazine: The Bombshell Memo

*May 17, 2002: Dan Rather says that he and other journalists haven't been properly investigating since 9/11. He graphically describes the pressures to conform that built up after the attacks. *
US media cowed by patriotic fever, says CBS star | Media | The Guardian

*May 30, 2002: FBI Agent Wright formally accuses the FBI of deliberately curtailing investigations that might have prevented 9/11. He is threatened with retribution if he talks to Congress about this. *
FOXNews.com - Whistleblower Complains of FBI Obstruction - Politics | Republican Party | Democratic Party | Political Spectrum
Los Angeles News - Another FBI Agent Blows the Whistle - page 1 - LA Weekly

*July 22, 2004: The 9/11 Commission Report is published. It fails to mention that a year before the attacks a secret Pentagon project had identified four 9/11 hijackers, including leader Mohamed Atta. The Commission spokesperson initially states members were not informed of this, but later acknowledges they were.*
9/11 Commission's Staff Rejected Report on Early Identification of Chief Hijacker - New York Times

*Aug 9, 2006: A  book by 9/11 Commission chairmen Kean and Hamilton outlines repeated deceptions by the Pentagon and FAA, including the timelines of Flights 77 and 93. CNN News: "The fact that the government would ... perpetuate the lie suggests that we need a full investigation of what is going on."*
[ame=http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0307263770/sr=1-1/qid=1156207288/ref=pd_bbs_1/104-3462640-4229555?ie=UTF8&s=books]Amazon.com: Without Precedent: The Inside Story of the 9/11 Commission: Thomas H. Kean, Lee H. Hamilton: Books[/ame]
9/11 panel's book assails Pentagon - Security- msnbc.com


*2006-2007: Over 50 former senior government officials and more than 100 highly respected professors publicly criticize The 9/11 Commission Report as highly flawed, and call for a new, independent investigation.*
Government, Military, Intelligence Officials Question 9/11 Commission Report

I don't think they would recruit some peeon county or city employees that were of little value, but people probably went to work and did what they were told. Some unwittingly may have participated like the personnel that
participated in the "ABLE DANGER" Terror Drills on 9/11.
YouTube - 9/11 Coincidences (Part Six)

And a foreign country is suspected of participating, those being Pakistan, and Israel.
I wondered how they could rig the towers because it would take some time to properly do so. From 1996 to 2000 Securcom installed a "new security system"
Marvin P Bush was a player in that security company.
Wirt Walker, W's cousin was CEO. There were power downs
in the buildings shortly before the attacks too.
Power-Down In Trade Centers Weekend Before 9/11 - Video

So there are plenty of things left unanswered and not properly investigated or reported, because people are most likely scared shitless.
I have a question. If it ever comes to light that these bastards committed these acts on their own people, what would we do about it? What could we do about it as individual citizens?  OR


----------



## Godboy (Jan 23, 2009)

> Mr. Jones
> Registered User
> 
> On September 10, 2001, Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld held a press conference to disclose that over $2,000,000,000,000 in Pentagon funds could not be accounted for. Rumsfeld stated: "According to some estimates we cannot track $2.3 trillion in transactions



I had this sneaky feeling that all that garbage you claimed as facts were lies (im being kind when i say "sneaky feeling", you conspiracy guys are notoriously dishonest people), so i decided to look up your first claim, and guess what i found? Its all bullshit and you wont find an ounce of these supposed facts anywhere outside of liberalist conspiracy sites. Did you honestly think you could just peddle that garbage on THESE boards and get away with it? You might be able to con your idiot conspiracy loving buddies with that crap, but it only takes pushing a few buttons on our keyboards to determine what is fact and what is not.

I wont bother wasting my time exposing your other claims, so ill just assume from here on out that everything you say is a lie. Maybe im being too harsh, perhaps you arent lying, but maybe your just an idiot that believes everything he reads. Wouldnt it just be better to do your research and know the real truth, that way you dont look like a dumbass?

Hey idiot, why dont you just look up to see if there was a press conference on that date? Its such an easy thing to do. You know what you find when you type in that date with Rumsfelds name in a search engine? You get an assload of conspiracy websites talking about this stupid 2 trillion dollar claim. Dont you think i would find a single unbiased legit web site with info about a white house press conference the day before 9/11? Honestly man, get a brain. Wheres the CNN video of it on youtube? Isnt the point of these press conferences to let the press get the story out to the people? There wasnt a press conference on that date at all retard, let alone one about missing 2 trillion dollars.

This is what it takes for conspiracy theories to happen. You just need a dumbass person who makes no attempt to research the crap hes been told and then he goes off and starts pawning that crap to everyone he comes in contact with. At some point he bumps into some other dumbass, tells him the story, and the cycle continues. Fucking retards.


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## DiveCon (Jan 23, 2009)

Godboy said:


> I had this sneaky feeling that all that garbage you claimed as facts were lies (im being kind when i say "sneaky feeling", you conspiracy guys are notoriously dishonest people), so i decided to look up your first claim, and guess what i found? Its all bullshit and you wont find an ounce of these supposed facts anywhere outside of liberalist conspiracy sites. Did you honestly think you could just peddle that garbage on THESE boards and get away with it? You might be able to con your idiot conspiracy loving buddies with that crap, but it only takes pushing a few buttons on our keyboards to determine what is fact and what is not.
> 
> I wont bother wasting my time exposing your other claims, so ill just assume from here on out that everything you say is a lie. Maybe im being too harsh, perhaps you arent lying, but maybe your just an idiot that believes everything he reads. Wouldnt it just be better to do your research and know the real truth, that way you dont look like a dumbass?
> 
> ...


9/11 troofers are some of the biggest liars i have ever met


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## eots (Jan 23, 2009)

Godboy said:


> Really? I cant believe i didnt already know about this stuff. This is amazing!  I got to check this out...so where can i find videos of these "open" discussions? I checked youtube with no luck.
> 
> Hey, while you are giving us the links to this proof of yours, you should also send them to the FBI. They need to know about this too so they can arrest these people right now! You are going to be a HERO eots!!
> 
> ...and someday ill be able to tell my grandchildren that i once spoke to you over an internet discussion board! Ok, i got to go now, im going to go call all of my friends and tell them about this!



*to take that kind of credit would be disrespectful to these  patriots and hero's*







*Lt. Col. Robert Bowman, PhD, U.S. Air Force (ret)  Director of Advanced Space Programs Development under Presidents Ford and Carter.  U.S. Air Force fighter pilot with over 100 combat missions. (PhD in Aeronautics and Nuclear Engineering, Cal Tech).   Former Head of the Department of Aeronautical Engineering and Assistant Dean at the U.S. Air Force Institute of Technology.  22-year Air Force career.  Also taught Mathematics and English at the University of Southern California, the University of Maryland, and Phillips University. *
Video 9/11/04: "A lot of these pieces of information, taken together, prove that the official story, the official conspiracy theory of 9/11 is a bunch of hogwash.  Its impossible.  Theres a second group of facts having to do with the cover up.  Taken together these things prove that high levels of our government dont want us to know what happened and whos responsible. 

Who gained from 9/11?  Who covered up crucial information about 9/11?  And who put out the patently false stories about 9/11 in the first place?  When you take those three things together, I think the case is pretty clear that its highly placed individuals in the administration with all roads passing through Dick Cheney. 

I think the very kindest thing that we can say about George W. Bush and all the people in the U.S. Government that have been involved in this massive cover-up, the very kindest thing we can say is that they were aware of impending attacks and let them happen.  Now some people will say thats much too kind, however even that is high treason and conspiracy to commit murder."  http://video.go 


*Lt. Col. Guy S. Razer, MS Aeronautical Science, U.S. Air Force (ret)  Retired U.S. Air Force command fighter pilot.  Former instructor; U.S. Air Force Fighter Weapons School and NATOs Tactical Leadership Program.  As an Air Force weapons effects expert was responsible for wartime tasking of most appropriate aircraft/munition for target destruction to include steel and concrete superstructures.  Former aeronautical structures flight test engineer with McDonnell Douglas, working on advanced DC-9 autopilot systems and DC-10 flight envelope expansion stress and flutter analysis.  Tactical aircraft flown: General Dynamics F-111 Aardvark fighter/bomber, McDonnell Douglas F-15E Strike Eagle, General Dynamics / Lockheed Martin F-16 Fighting Falcon, McDonnell Douglas F-18 Hornet, Boeing B-1 Bomber, MiG-29 (Russian fighter), and Su-22 (Russian fighter/bomber).  3,000+ fighter hours.  Combat time over Iraq.  20-year Air Force career. 
Statement to this website 3/25/07:* "After 4+ years of research since retirement in 2002, I am 100% convinced that the attacks of September 11, 2001 were planned, organized, and committed by treasonous perpetrators that have infiltrated the highest levels of our government.  It is now time to take our country back. 

The "collapse" of WTC Building 7 shows beyond any doubt that the demolitions were pre-planned.  There is simply no way to demolish a 47-story building (on fire) over a coffee break.  It is also impossible to report the buildings collapse before it happened, as BBC News did, unless it was pre-planned.  Further damning evidence is Larry Silverstein's video taped confession in which he states "they made that decision to pull [WTC 7] and we watched the building collapse." [Editor's note: WTC Building 7 was 610 feet tall, 47 stories.  It would have been the tallest building in 33 states.  Although it was not hit by an airplane, it completely collapsed into a pile of rubble in less than 7 seconds at 5:20 p.m. on 9/11, seven hours after the collapses of the Twin Towers.  However, no mention of its collapse appears in the 9/11 Commission's "full and complete account of the circumstances surrounding the September 11, 2001 terrorist attacks."  Watch the collapse video here.  And six years after 9/11, the Federal government has yet to publish its promised final report that explains the cause of its collapse.] 

We cannot let the pursuit of justice fail.  Those of us in the military took an oath to "support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic".  Just because we have retired does not make that oath invalid, so it is not just our responsibility, it is our duty to expose the real perpetrators of 9/11 and bring them to justice, no matter how hard it is, how long it takes, or how much we have to suffer to do it. 

We owe it to those who have gone before us who executed that same oath, and who are doing the same thing in Iraq and Afghanistan right now.  Those of us who joined the military and faithfully executed orders that were given us had to trust our leaders.  The violation and abuse of that trust is not only heinous, but *ultimately the most accurate definition of treason!" *





*Capt. Daniel Davis, U.S. Army  Former U.S. Army Air Defense Officer and NORAD Tac Director.  Decorated with the Bronze Star and the Soldiers Medal for bravery under fire and the Purple Heart for injuries sustained in Viet Nam.  Also served in the Army Air Defense Command as Nike Missile Battery Control Officer for the Chicago-Milwaukee Defense Area.  Founder and former CEO of Turbine Technology Services Corp., a turbine (jet engine) services and maintenance company (15 years).  Former Senior Manager at General Electric Turbine (jet) Engine Division (15 years).  Private pilot.*
Statement to this website 3/23/07: "As a former General Electric Turbine engineering specialist and manager and then CEO of a turbine engineering company, I can guarantee that none of the high tech, high temperature alloy engines on any of the four planes that crashed on 9/11 would be completely destroyed, burned, shattered or melted in any crash or fire.  Wrecked, yes, but not destroyed.  Where are all of those engines, particularly at the Pentagon?  If jet powered aircraft crashed on 9/11, those engines, plus wings and tail assembly, would be there. 

Additionally, in my experience as an officer in NORAD as a Tactical Director for the Chicago-Milwaukee Air Defense and as a current private pilot, there is no way that an aircraft on instrument flight plans (all commercial flights are IFR) would not be intercepted when they deviate from their flight plan, turn off their transponders, or stop communication with Air Traffic Control.  No way!  With very bad luck, perhaps one could slip by, but no there's no way all four of them could! 

Finally, going over the hill and highway and crashing into the Pentagon right at the wall/ground interface is nearly impossible for even a small slow single engine airplane and no way for a 757. Maybe the best pilot in the world could accomplish that but not these unskilled "terrorists". 

*Attempts to obscure facts by calling them a "Conspiracy Theory" does not change the truth.  It seems, "Something is rotten in the State." *



Patriots Question 9/11 - Responsible Criticism of the 9/11 Commission Report


----------



## Andrew2382 (Jan 23, 2009)

the goverment can't run the post office effiecently yet they did all this


----------



## eots (Jan 23, 2009)

Godboy said:


> I had this sneaky feeling that all that garbage you claimed as facts were lies (im being kind when i say "sneaky feeling", you conspiracy guys are notoriously dishonest people), so i decided to look up your first claim, and guess what i found? Its all bullshit and you wont find an ounce of these supposed facts anywhere outside of liberalist conspiracy sites. Did you honestly think you could just peddle that garbage on THESE boards and get away with it? You might be able to con your idiot conspiracy loving buddies with that crap, but it only takes pushing a few buttons on our keyboards to determine what is fact and what is not.
> 
> I wont bother wasting my time exposing your other claims, so ill just assume from here on out that everything you say is a lie. Maybe im being too harsh, perhaps you arent lying, but maybe your just an idiot that believes everything he reads. Wouldnt it just be better to do your research and know the real truth, that way you dont look like a dumbass?
> 
> ...



*what a fool..its right here*

rumsfeild sept 10th - Google Video


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## eots (Jan 23, 2009)

Andrew2382 said:


> the goverment can't run the post office effiecently yet they did all this



another media programed response...


----------



## Andrew2382 (Jan 23, 2009)

http://www.usmessageboard.com/consp...-theorists-dream-comes-true-5.html#post933152


----------



## Andrew2382 (Jan 23, 2009)

when will you cooks understand that these theorist are playing you guys like a fiddle to make a dollar for themselves....and the weakminded (ie you) buy into it becuase you don't trust anyone.

As dave said

To pull something of this magnitude off would have needed so many people involved that it would be impossible for people to keep thei rmouth shut about it for all this time.

Get over it.


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## eots (Jan 23, 2009)

Andrew2382 said:


> when will you cooks understand that these theorist are playing you guys like a fiddle to make a dollar for themselves....and the weakminded (ie you) buy into it becuase you don't trust anyone.
> 
> As dave said
> 
> ...



*I believe these people have a better grasp of the logistics of such a operation far more than you do*


*Raymond L. McGovern  Former Chairman, National Intelligence Estimates, CIA, responsible for preparing the President Daily Brief (PDB) for Ronald Reagan and George H.W. Bush.  27-year CIA veteran. Former U.S. Army Intelligence Officer.* 

Video 7/22/06:  "I think at simplest terms, theres a cover-up.  The 9/11 report is a joke.  The question is: Whats being covered up?  Is it gross malfeasance, gross negligence, misfeasance?  Now there are a whole bunch of unanswered questions.  And the reason theyre unanswered is because this administration will not answer the questions.  I just want to reassert, what Scott [Ritter, former Major in the U.S. Marines Corps, former Chief Weapons Inspector for the United Nations Special Commission in Iraq] said and this is the bottom line for me, just as Hitler in 1933 cynically exploited the burning of the parliament building, the Reichstag, this is exactly what our President did in exploiting 9/11.  The cynical way in which he played on our trauma, used it to justify attacking, making a war of aggression on a country that he knew had nothing to do with 9/11.  That suffices for me, I think Scott is exactly right, thats certainly an impeachable offense." http://video.google 




*William Christison  Former National Intelligence Officer and Director of the CIA's Office of Regional and Political Analysis.  29-year CIA veteran.*

Endorsement of Debunking 9/11 Debunking 3/30/07:  "David Ray Griffins Debunking 9/11 Debunking is a superb compendium of the strong body of evidence showing the official U.S. Government story of what happened on September 11, 2001 to be almost certainly a monstrous series of lies.  Tragically, the entire course of U.S. foreign and domestic policies since that date has grown out of these almost certain falsehoods.  This single book could (and should) provide the basis for the United Nations International Court of Justice, or some specially constituted global body (independent of the U.S.) to investigate with highest priority, and publicly report its findings about, the charge that unknown elements within the U.S. Government, and possibly some individuals elsewhere closely allied to the U.S., caused or contributed to causing the events of September 11 to happen." Amazon.com: Online Shopping for Electronics, Apparel, Computers, Books, DVDs & more 


Essay Stop Belittling the Theories About September 11  8/14/06: "I now think there is persuasive evidence that the events of September did not unfold as the Bush administration and the 9/11 Commission would have us believe.  An airliner almost certainly did not hit The Pentagon.  The North and South Towers of the World Trade Center almost certainly did not collapse and fall to earth because hijacked aircraft hit them." Dissident Voice 


Article 9/7/06: "David Griffin believes this all was totally an inside job - I've got to say I think that it was too.  I have since decided that....at least some elements in this US government had contributed in some way or other to causing 9/11 to happen or at least allowing it to happen.  The reason that the two towers in New York actually collapsed and fell all the way to the ground was controlled explosions rather than just being hit by two airplanes.  All of the characteristics of these demolitions show that they almost had to have been controlled explosions." Alex Jones' Prison Planet.com 


Member: Scientific Panel Investigating Nine-Eleven  Association Statement: "We have found solid scientific grounds on which to question the interpretation put upon the events of September 11, 2001 by the Office of the President of the United States of America and subsequently propagated by the major media of western nations." 


Audio interview 9/29/06: "We very seriously need an entirely new very high level and truly independent investigation of the events of 9/11.  I think you almost have to look at the 9/11 Commission Report as a joke and not a serious piece of analysis at all.  It gave the administration what it wanted to support their official story on what happened on the date of September 11 and that's all they cared about. ... It's a monstrous crime. Absolutely a monstrous crime." Electric Politics 


*Letter to Congress regarding the 9/11 Commission Report 9/13/04, signed by the following 25 military, intelligence, and law enforcement veterans: *Project On Government Oversight 


"[W]e the undersigned wish to bring to the attention of the Congress and the people of the United States what we believe are serious shortcomings in the report and its recommendations.  

Omission is one of the major flaws in the Commissions report.  We are aware of significant issues and cases that were duly reported to the commission by those of us with direct knowledge, but somehow escaped attention.  

The omission of such serious and applicable issues and information by itself renders the report flawed, and casts doubt on the validity of many of its recommendations. ... 

The Commission, with its incomplete report of "facts and circumstances", intentional avoidance of assigning accountability, and disregard for the knowledge, expertise and experience of those who actually do the job, has now set about pressuring our Congress and our nation to hastily implement all its recommendations. ... 

We the undersigned, who have worked within various government agencies (FBI, CIA, FAA, DIA, Customs) responsible for national security and public safety, call upon you in Congress to include the voices of those with first-hand knowledge and expertise in the important issues at hand.  We stand ready to do our part." Project On Government Oversight


*Edward J. Costello, Jr.  Former Special Agent, Counterterrorism, FBI.*  Former Judge pro tem., Los Angeles, CA. 


*John M. Cole  Former Intelligence Operations Specialist, in the FBIs Counterintelligence Division.*  In charge of FBIs foreign intelligence investigations covering India, Pakistan and Afghanistan. 18-year FBI career. 


*Mark Conrad, JD  Retired Agent in Charge, Internal Affairs, U.S. Customs, responsible for the internal integrity and security for areas encompassing nine states and two foreign locations.  Former Federal Sky Marshall. * 27-year U.S. Customs career.  Currently Associate General Counsel, National Association of Federal Agents.  Assistant Professor of Criminal Justice at Troy University.


*Rosemary N. Dew  Former Supervisory Special Agent, Counterterrorism and Counterintelligence, FBI.  Former member of The President's National Security Telecommunications Advisory Committee (NSTAC)* and the Electronic Commerce/Cyber Crime Working Group. 13-year FBI career. 


*Bogdan Dzakovic  Witness before the 9/11 Commission.  14-year Counter-terrorism expert in the Security Division of the Federal Aviation Administration.*  Team Leader of the FAA's Red (Terrorism) Team, which conducted undercover tests on airport security through simulated terrorist attacks.  Former Team Leader in the Federal Air Marshal program.  Former Coast Guard officer.  (See also individual statement above.)


*Sibel D. Edmonds  Witness before the 9/11 Commission.  Former Language Translation Specialist, performing translations for counterterrorism and counterintelligence operations, FBI. * (See also individual statement above.)


*Steve Elson  Former Special Agent with the U.S. Navy and the FAA. Specialist in Counterterrorism, Intelligence, and Security.*  Twenty-two years military experience, primarily in Naval Special Warfare and nine years Federal service with the FAA and DEA.  Retired Navy SEAL. (See also individual statement above.)


*David Forbes  Former head of Thames Valley Police Fraud Squad, trained at New Scotland Yard.  Over 30 years experience in law enforcement*, commercial and industrial security-related risk management, and service sector business management.  Currently Aviation, Logistics and Govt. Security Analyst, BoydForbes, Inc.


*Melvin A. Goodman  Former Division Chief and Senior Analyst at the Office of Soviet Affairs, CIA,1966 - 1990.  Senior Analyst at the Bureau of Intelligence and Research, State Department, 1974 - 1976.*  Professor of International Security at the National War College 1986 - 2004.  Currently Senior Fellow at the Center for International Policy and Adjunct Professor of International Relations at Johns Hopkins University. He is the author and co-author of five books on international relations. (See also individual statement above.)


*Mark Graf  Former Security Supervisor, Planner, and Derivative Classifier, Department of Energy.  Former Chairman of the Rocky Flats (DOE) Physical Security Systems Working Group from 1990 through 1995.*


*Gilbert M. Graham  Retired Special Agent, Counterintelligence, FBI. *24-year FBI career. 


*Diane Kleiman  Former Special Agent, US Customs*.


*Lt. Col. Karen U. Kwiatkowski, PhD, U.S. Air Force (ret)  Former Political-Military Affairs Officer in the Office of the Secretary of Defense. Also served on the staff of the Director of the National Security Agency. 20-year Air Force veteran. * (See also individual statement above.)

*
Lynne A. Larkin  Former CIA Operations Officer.  Served in several CIA foreign stations and in the CIA's counter-intelligence* center helping chair a multi-agency task force and seminars on coordinating intelligence among intelligence and crime prevention agencies.


*David MacMichael, PhD  Former Senior Estimates Officer with special responsibility for Western Hemisphere Affairs at the CIA's National Intelligence Council.  Former Captain, U.S. Marine Corps.*

*
Raymond L. McGovern  Former Chairman, National Intelligence Estimates, CIA, responsible for preparing the President Daily Brief (PDB) for Ronald Reagan and George H.W. Bush.  27-year CIA veteran. Former U.S. Army Intelligence Officer.*  (See also individual statement above.)

*
Theodore J. Pahle  Former Senior Intelligence Officer with the Defense Intelligence Agency*.  His 37-year intelligence career was exclusively as a HUMINT (Human Intelligence) operations officer with DIA, Office of Naval Intelligence and U.S. Army Intelligence.  He is a Middle East and Latin American operations specialist.  Today, he continues to support the HUMINT effort as a contract instructor.


*Behrooz Sarshar  Retired Language Translation Specialist, performing Farsi translations for counterterrorism and counterintelligence operations dealing with Iran and Afghanistan, FBI.*


*Brian F. Sullivan  Retired Special Agent and Risk Management Specialist, FAA.  Retired Lieutenant Colonel, Military Police.*


Commander Larry J. Tortorich, U.S. Navy (ret)  Former Deputy Program *Manager for Logistics * Tomahawk Cruise Missiles.  24-year Navy career in the fields of aviation and counterterrorism.  Two years as a federal employee with DHS/TSA in the fields of security and counterterrorism.  


*Jane A. Turner  Retired Special Agent, FBI.  24-year FBI career.* 

*
John B. Vincent  Retired Special Agent, Counterterrorism, FBI.*  27-year FBI career.

*
Fred Whitehurst, JD, PhD  Retired Supervisory Special Agent / Laboratory Forensic Examiner, FBI.  *16-year FBI career.  Former U.S. Army Intelligence Officer. 

*
Col. Ann Wright, U.S. Army (ret)  Retired Army officer and former U.S. Diplomat.*  Served 13 years on active duty with the U.S. Army and 16 years in the U.S. Army Reserves.  She was a member of the International law team in Operation Urgent Fury in Grenada and served in Panama and Somalia.  She joined the Foreign Service in 1987 and served as Deputy Chief of Mission of U.S. Embassies in Sierra Leone, Micronesia and Afghanistan.  She helped reopen the US Embassy in Kabul in December, 2001.  One of three U.S. State Department officials to publicly resign in direct protest of the invasion of Iraq in March, 2003.  (See also individual statement above.)


*Matthew J. Zipoli  Special Response Team (SRT) Officer, DOE.   Vice President, Security Police Officer's Association, Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory* 

Patriots Question 9/11 - Responsible Criticism of the 9/11 Commission Report


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## Andrew2382 (Jan 23, 2009)

you post the same shit all the time

guess what all those people

NOT ONE FUCKING SCIENTIST

all analysts and field operatives

Where is your comment on my post debunking all your shit?


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## eots (Jan 23, 2009)

*there are many scientist you fool ..you where questioning the ability of intelligence agency's to orchestrate ch a event and thees experts disagree with you*

*
David L. Griscom, PhD &#8211; Research physicist, retired in 2001 from Naval Research Laboratory (NRL) in Washington, DC, after 33 years service.  Fellow of the American Physical Society. * Fulbright-García Robles Fellow at Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México in Mexico City (1997).  Visiting professorships of research at the Universities of Paris and Saint-Etienne, France, and Tokyo Institute of Technology (2000 - 2003).  Adjunct Professor of Materials Science and Engineering, University of Arizona (2004 - 2005).  Winner of the 1993 N. F. Mott Award sponsored by the Journal of Non-Crystalline Solids, the 1995 Otto Schott Award offered by the Carl-Zeiss-Stiftung (Germany), a 1996 Outstanding Graduate School Alumnus Award at Brown University, and the 1997 Sigma Xi Pure Science Award at NRL. Principal author of 109 of his 185 published works, a body of work which is highly cited by his peers.  Officially credited with largest number of papers (5) by any author on list of 100 most cited articles authored at NRL between 1973 and 1988. 
Personal blog 1/5/07: "David Ray Griffin has web-published a splendid, highly footnoted account of The Destruction of the World Trade Center: Why the Official Account Cannot Be True:  This scholarly work, rich in eyewitness accounts, includes 11 separate pieces of evidence that the World Trade Center towers 1, 2 [each 1300+ feet tall, 110 stories], and 7 were brought down by explosives.  [Editor's note: WTC Building 7 was 610 feet tall, 47 stories.  It would have been the tallest building in 33 states.  Although it was not hit by an airplane, it completely collapsed into a pile of rubble in less than 7 seconds at 5:20 p.m. on 9/11, seven hours after the collapses of the Twin Towers.  However, no mention of its collapse appears in the 9/11 Commission's "full and complete account of the circumstances surrounding the September 11, 2001 terrorist attacks."  Watch the collapse video here.  And six years after 9/11, the Federal government has yet to publish its promised final report that explains the cause of its collapse.]

... I implore my fellow physicists and engineers who may have the time, expertise, and (ideally) supercomputer access to get to work on the physics of the World Trade Center collapses and publish their findings in refereed journals like, say, the Journal of Applied Physics. 

The issue of knowing who was really behind the 9/11 attacks is of paramount importance to the future of our country, because the "official" assumption that it was the work of 19 Arab amateurs (1) does not match the available facts and (2) has led directly to the deplorable Patriot Act, the illegal Iraq war, NSA spying on ordinary Americans, repudiation of the Geneva Conventions, and the repeal of habeas corpus (a fundamental point of law that has been with us since the signing of the Magna Carta in 1215). 

Surely these Orwellian consequences of public ignorance constitute more than sufficient motivation for any patriotic American physicist or engineer to join the search for 9/11 Truth!" http://impactglassman 


Member: Scholars for 9/11 Truth and Justice   Association Statement: "Scholars for 9/11 Truth and Justice is a non-partisan organization consisting of independent researchers and activists engaged in uncovering the true nature of the September 11, 2001 attacks." 


Bio: David L Griscom PhD Physicist bio 






*
Dwain Deets, MS Eng *

*Dwain Deets, MS Physics, MS Eng &#8211; Former Director, Aerospace Projects, NASA Dryden Flight Research Center.  Before this appointment, he served as Director, Research Engineering Division at Dryden.  Recipient of the NASA Exceptional Service Award and the Presidential Meritorious Rank Award in the Senior Executive Service (1988).  *Selected presenter of the Wright Brothers Lectureship in Aeronautics, a distinguished speaking engagement sponsored by the American Institute of Aeronautics and Astronautics (AIAA) (1986).  Included in "Who's Who in Science and Engineering" 1993 - 2000.  Former Chairman of the Aerospace Control and Guidance Systems Committee of the Society of Automotive Engineers.  Former Member, AIAA Committee on Society and Aerospace Technology.  37 year NASA career. 
Statement in support of Architects and Engineers petition:
"The many visual images (massive structural members being hurled horizontally, huge pyroclastic clouds, etc.) leave no doubt in my mind explosives were involved [in the destruction of the World Trade Center]."  AE911Truth 


Signatory: Petition requesting a reinvestigation of 9/11, signed by more than 500 Architects and Engineers: 

"On Behalf of the People of the United States of America, the undersigned Architects and Engineers for 9/11 Truth and affiliates  hereby petition for, and demand, a truly independent investigation with subpoena power in order to uncover the full truth surrounding the events of 9/11/01 - specifically the collapse of the World Trade Center Towers and Building 7.  We believe that there is sufficient doubt about the official story and therefore that the 9/11 investigation must be re-opened and must include a full inquiry into the possible use of explosives that may have been the actual cause behind the destruction of the World Trade Center Towers and WTC Building 7." Sign the Petition 


Editor's note: WTC Building 7 was 610 feet tall, 47 stories.  It would have been the tallest building in 33 states.  Although it was not hit by an airplane, it completely collapsed into a pile of rubble in less than 7 seconds at 5:20 p.m. on 9/11, seven hours after the collapses of the Twin Towers.  However, no mention of its collapse appears in the 9/11 Commission's "full and complete account of the circumstances surrounding the September 11, 2001 terrorist attacks."  Watch the collapse video here.  And six years after 9/11, the Federal government has yet to publish its promised final report that explains the cause of its collapse. 


Bio: NASA - Dryden Flight Research Center 









*Larry L. Erickson, MS, PhD
No photo available *

*Larry L. Erickson, BS Aeronautical Eng, MS Aeronautical Eng, PhD Eng Mechanics &#8211; Retired NASA Aerospace Engineer and Research Scientist.*  Conducted research in the fields of structural dynamics, aerodynamics, aeroelasticity and flutter.  Recipient of NASA's Aerodynamics Division Researcher-of-the-Year Award.  33-year NASA career.  Member, American Institute of Aeronautics & Astronautics.  Instructor, Physics and Aerospace Engineering, California Polytechnic State University, San Luis Obispo 1998 - present.  Author and co-author of several scientific papers on aerodynamic analysis.  Contributing author to Applied Computational Aerodynamics (1990). 
Statement in support of Architects and Engineers petition:
"Serious technical investigations by experts seem to be lacking from the official explanations."  AE911Truth 


Signatory: Petition requesting a reinvestigation of 9/11, signed by more than 500 Architects and Engineers: 

"On Behalf of the People of the United States of America, the undersigned Architects and Engineers for 9/11 Truth and affiliates  hereby petition for, and demand, a truly independent investigation with subpoena power in order to uncover the full truth surrounding the events of 9/11/01 - specifically the collapse of the World Trade Center Towers and Building 7.  We believe that there is sufficient doubt about the official story and therefore that the 9/11 investigation must be re-opened and must include a full inquiry into the possible use of explosives that may have been the actual cause behind the destruction of the World Trade Center Towers and WTC Building 7." Sign the Petition 


Editor's note: WTC Building 7 was 610 feet tall, 47 stories.  It would have been the tallest building in 33 states.  Although it was not hit by an airplane, it completely collapsed into a pile of rubble in less than 7 seconds at 5:20 p.m. on 9/11, seven hours after the collapses of the Twin Towers.  However, no mention of its collapse appears in the 9/11 Commission's "full and complete account of the circumstances surrounding the September 11, 2001 terrorist attacks."  Watch the collapse video here.  And six years after 9/11, the Federal government has yet to publish its promised final report that explains the cause of its collapse.  



*Robert H. Waser, BS ME, MS ME, PE &#8211; Retired Research and Development Engineer, U.S. Naval Ordinance Lab. 33 year career,* of which 15 years were as Chief Engineer of the laboratory's wind tunnel complex, which includes the world's largest hypervelocity wind tunnel.  Retired Licensed Professional Engineer, State of Maryland. 
Statement in support of Architects and Engineers petition: 
"The 'official' 9/11 story seems to violate laws of physics and engineering analysis, specifically with respect to the collapse speed and the temperatures of molten iron.  *The only explanation that seems to be in accordance with all observations is controlled demolition."  *AE911Truth

Patriots Question 9/11 - Responsible Criticism of the 9/11 Commission Report


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## Andrew2382 (Jan 23, 2009)

lol 3 experts...should I prove 30 experts that disagree you fool

still waiting for you to comment on my previous post


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## eots (Jan 23, 2009)

i will stand with these men ..you can go stand with fox news and popular mechanics ..ok 


*Bogdan Dzakovic &#8211; Witness before the 9/11 Commission.  14-year Counter-terrorism expert in the Security Division of the Federal Aviation Administration. Team Leader of the FAA's Red (Terrorism) Team*, which conducted undercover tests on airport security through simulated terrorist attacks.  Former Team Leader in the Federal Air Marshal program.  Former Coast Guard officer.

Video transcript 8/21/05 : Regarding the 9/11 Commission "The best I could say about it is they really botched the job by not really going into the real failures. &#8230; At worst, I think the 9/11 Commission Report is treasonous." 



National Security Whistleblowers Coalition 


*Raymond A. Ciccolilli*

*Raymond A. Ciccolilli &#8211; Former U.S. Sky Marshal and Senior U.S. Customs Inspector.  Retired from U.S. Customs and Border Protection after 33 years.  Worked on almost every enforcement team within U.S. Customs. *
Statement in support of Architects and Engineers petition: 

"I am ashamed that I spent so many years defending the borders only to now know that we are now living the most corrupt time in all of U.S. history.  I had some questions in my mind about all the circumstances involved in 9/11 but it wasn't until I watched this DVD did all the pieces of the puzzle fall into place.  I guess, I, too, was living in denial.  No one wants to believe this, but having witnessed two jet plane crashes in the past, and watching the Trade Center buildings collapse, I know that the facts do not add up. 

After viewing several other documentaries on 9/11, I am now convinced these building were deliberately destroyed.  Someone has to be held accountable."  AE911Truth 



*
Morgan Reynolds, PhD &#8211; Chief Economist, U.S. Department of Labor under George W. Bush 2001 - 2002.  *Former Director of the Criminal Justice Center at the National Center for Policy Analysis.  Professor Emeritus, Economics, Texas A&M University. 

Contributing author to 9/11 and American Empire (Vol I) &#8211; Intellectuals Speak Out (2006). 
Video interview with Alex Jones 6/2/06: "I first began to suspect that 9/11 was in inside job when the Bush-Cheney Administration invaded Iraq. &#8230; We can prove that the government&#8217;s story is false."  http://video.google


*Capt. Edgar Mitchell, U.S. Navy (ret), BS Industrial Management, BS Aeronautical Engineering, Doctor of Science, Aeronautics and Astronautics from MIT &#8211; Pilot and Astronaut.  Sixth man to walk on the moon (Apollo 14 mission).*  Patrol bomber and attack plane pilot, U.S. Navy.  Test Pilot, Air Test and Evaluation Squadron 5 (VX-5).  Chief of Project Management Division, Navy Field Office for the Manned Orbiting Laboratory Project.  Graduated first in his class from the Aerospace Research Pilot School, and served as an instructor there.  Recipient of many awards and honors including the Presidential Medal of Freedom, the USN Distinguished Medal and three NASA Group Achievement Awards. Inducted to the Space Hall of Fame in 1979 and the Astronaut Hall of Fame in 1998.  Recipient of honorary doctorates in engineering from New Mexico State University, the University of Akron, Carnegie Mellon University, and a ScD from Embry-Riddle University.  Founder of the Institute of Noetic Sciences. 
Endorser of and proposed Commissioner of a New Investigation into 9/11 as described in the New York City Ballot Initiative 11/08: "Petition to Create a NYC Independent Commission with Subpoena Power to Conduct a Comprehensive and Fact-Driven Investigation of All Relevant Aspects of the Tragic Events of September 11, 2001 and Issue a Report. 

WHEREAS, many New York City voters believe that there remain many unanswered questions critical to establishing the truth about all relevant events leading up to, during and subsequent to the tragic attacks occurring on September 11, 2001 (&#8220;9/11&#8221, and 

WHEREAS, no prior investigation by any New York City agency or any other governmental entity has resulted in the citizens being provided with those critical answers or information necessary to establish the truth about those tragic events, ... 

An independent, temporary New York City commission (the &#8220;Commission&#8221 is hereby created to conduct a comprehensive, factdriven investigation into the events that took place on 9/11, as well as to thoroughly examine related events before and after the attacks, including any activities attempting to hide, cover up, impede or obstruct any investigation into these 9/11 events, following wherever the facts may lead. The Commission shall publish one or more reports of their findings." 


Website: Ed Mitchell 



Essay 6/9/05: "It is hard to exaggerate the importance of a scientific debate over the cause(s) of the collapse of the twin towers [each 1300+ feet tall, 110 stories] and building 7. If the official wisdom on the collapses is wrong, as I believe it is, then policy based on such erroneous engineering analysis is not likely [to] prove to be sound."  http://www.l...   

Patriots Question 9/11 - Responsible Criticism of the 9/11 Commission Report


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## Andrew2382 (Jan 23, 2009)

sigh

same whacko posts over and over

it's as if you ahve them ready to copy and paste at a moments notice 

and rather then confront someone else's data you just link your own that does nothing to debunk the other


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## eots (Jan 23, 2009)

you have no data..you have the failed 911 commission report that did not even address building 7 and a popular mechanics magazine...


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## Big_D (Jan 23, 2009)

eots said:


> you have no data..you have the failed 911 commission report that did not even address building 7 and a popular mechanics magazine...



As we have shown you time and time again, we have MUCH more than that. The experts I have shown you FAR outweigh yours.


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## eots (Jan 23, 2009)

*the proof would be found in a real investigation under the terms of the petition and and chaired by Egar Mitchell*

*.Capt. Edgar Mitchell, U.S. Navy (ret), BS Industrial Management, BS Aeronautical Engineering, Doctor of Science, Aeronautics and Astronautics from MIT &#8211; Pilot and Astronaut.  Sixth man to walk on the moon (Apollo 14 mission).*  Patrol bomber and attack plane pilot, U.S. Navy.  Test Pilot, Air Test and Evaluation Squadron 5 (VX-5).  Chief of Project Management Division, Navy Field Office for the Manned Orbiting Laboratory Project.  Graduated first in his class from the Aerospace Research Pilot School, and served as an instructor there.  Recipient of many awards and honors including the Presidential Medal of Freedom, the USN Distinguished Medal and three NASA Group Achievement Awards. Inducted to the Space Hall of Fame in 1979 and the Astronaut Hall of Fame in 1998.  Recipient of honorary doctorates in engineering from New Mexico State University, the University of Akron, Carnegie Mellon University, and a ScD from Embry-Riddle University.  Founder of the Institute of Noetic Sciences. 


*Endorser of and proposed Commissioner of a New Investigation into 9/11 as described in the New York City Ballot Initiative 11/08:* "Petition to Create a NYC Independent Commission with Subpoena Power to Conduct a Comprehensive and Fact-Driven Investigation of All Relevant Aspects of the Tragic Events of September 11, 2001 and Issue a Report. 

*WHEREAS, *many New York City voters believe that there remain many unanswered questions critical to establishing the truth about all relevant events leading up to, during and subsequent to the tragic attacks occurring on September 11, 2001 (&#8220;9/11&#8221, and 

*WHEREAS,* no prior investigation by any New York City agency or any other governmental entity has resulted in the citizens being provided with those critical answers or information necessary to establish the truth about those tragic events, ... 

An independent, temporary New York City commission (the &#8220;Commission&#8221 is hereby created to conduct a comprehensive, factdriven investigation into the events that took place on 9/11, as well as to thoroughly examine related events before and after the attacks, including any activities attempting to hide, cover up, impede or obstruct any investigation into these 9/11 events, following wherever the facts may lead. The Commission shall publish one or more reports of their findings." 


Website: Ed Mitchell 

Signatory: Petition requesting a reinvestigation of 9/11:     
"We want truthful answers to question. &#8230;  As Americans of conscience, we ask for four things: 
An immediate investigation by New York Attorney General Eliot Spitzer 
Immediate investigation in Congressional Hearings. 
Media attention to scrutinize and investigate the evidence. 
The formation of a truly independent citizens-based inquiry." http://www.911truth.org/article 

Patriots Question 9/11 - Responsible Criticism of the 9/11 Commission Report


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## Andrew2382 (Jan 23, 2009)

my article didn't come from popular mechanics or 9/11 report...maybe you should try reading it

you know reading right

top to bottom 
left to right
group of words make a sentence
take tylenol for any hedaches
midol for any cramps


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## Godboy (Jan 23, 2009)

eots said:


> *what a fool..its right here*
> 
> rumsfeild sept 10th - Google Video



Why is it, the only video i can find of this, is a CBS news report and NOT the full press conference? For all i know when Rumsfeld said "There are some estimates that 2.3 trillion dollars are missing", the following words out of his mouth could have been "but i dont think this is true." Wheres the full video of this? Only 1 lone CBS report of this exists? I sure looked for others, but i found jack shit.

It seems to me that if this was even a worthwile story, the journalists would have had a field day with it, but since they dont seem concerned about it, theres obvious no story there at all. Then again, perhaps the liberal journalists are afraid of what they might find if they look into it, considering that the missing money would have come from when Clinton was in office, NOT from the Bush administration.

I made the claim that Rumsfeld never said ANYTHING about missing money, because i couldnt find any proof of it. While you still havent shown completely sufficient evidence of this, i have no problems admitting when im wrong. He did at least say the words "there are SOME estimates that 2.3 trillion dollars are missing". That still doesnt mean this non-story is proof of any wrong doing by evil secret societies. Black OPs spending is always off the books and everyone knows it comes from the military budget.

The reason they do secret spending isnt because some dude is trying to make himself rich, its because they dont want to have to report our most top secret projects to congress on audit day. Why? ...because those idiots leak information all the time. When you want something kept secret, you dont go telling 435 more people about it. Its been this way since the turn of the century, and yes, it even happens when your beloved democrats are in the White House.


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## Godboy (Jan 23, 2009)

...and for fuck sake eots, dont you have any thoughts of your own? Whats with the cut and paste posting? Im certian that everyone else does the same thing i do when i see your cut and paste novels, they just skip past your posts entirely.


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## Mr. Jones (Jan 23, 2009)

eots said:


> *what a fool..its right here*
> 
> rumsfeild sept 10th - Google Video



No shit. If they want to continue to live in a fantasy world, and deny what is going on despite all the things that are  happening around them, to our country, and to the world that's cool. But millions of others know better and aren't afraid to live in reality and face it. They even deny conspiracies, what indoctrinated morons 
 It is only those who benefit most from conspiracies who have an inherent bias against them. Those who benefit from conspiracy have vested interests in discounting them. Conspiracies are how important crimes are committed. No one acting alone is capable of achieving much certainly one person cannot wage aggressive war or even significant acts of terrorism. Certainly the crimes of 911 were the work of a conspiracy whether the conspiracy was conceived and directed by Bushco or other terrorists. Acts which enrich a group are called free enterprise if legal, conspiracies if illegal.

    If conspiracies did not exist, then why has the US Supreme Court handed down so many cases defining them and applying to them the laws of these United States? And why are there so many US laws having to do with conspiracies if conspiracies did not exist?

They also fail to understand that you don't find stories negative in opinion about the government, or its questionable institutions, in media that is generally favorable to them.


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## Godboy (Jan 23, 2009)

A clarification needs to be made about this supposed missing money....

First off to say its missing is innaccurate, what he said was they couldnt track where it was spent, and there IS a difference. To put it all in context, Rumsfelds reason for even mentioning it was so that he could point out the innefficient bureaucracy at the Pentagon, because he had plans to shake things up to make them more efficient.


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## Godboy (Jan 23, 2009)

> If &#8216;conspiracies&#8217; did not exist, then why has the US Supreme Court handed down so many cases defining them and applying to them the laws of these United States? And why are there so many US laws having to do with &#8216;conspiracies&#8217; if &#8216;conspiracies&#8217; did not exist?



There is such a thing as "conspiracy to commit murder". I hardly think they had JFKs assasination, the moon landing and 9/11 in mind when they talk about conspiracies. Only dumbass people believe in that stuff.


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## Mr. Jones (Jan 23, 2009)

Godboy said:


> A clarification needs to be made about this supposed missing money....
> 
> First off to say its missing is innaccurate, what he said was they couldnt track where it was spent, and there IS a difference. To put it all in context, Rumsfelds reason for even mentioning it was so that he could point out the innefficient bureaucracy at the Pentagon, because he had plans to shake things up to make them more efficient.


He couldn't track where it was spent, there fore it's gone, missing. It doesn't matter to me what his intentions were when he mentioned it it's still fucking missing isn't it?


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## DiveCon (Jan 23, 2009)

Mr. Jones said:


> He couldn't track where it was spent, there fore it's gone, missing. It doesn't matter to me what his intentions were when he mentioned it it's still fucking missing isn't it?


and just what does this have to do with 9/11 conspiracies?


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## Godboy (Jan 23, 2009)

> He couldn't track where it was spent, there fore it's gone, missing. It doesn't matter to me what his intentions were when he mentioned it it's still fucking missing isn't it?



The money didnt disappear, it was spent, they just cant say on what. There are a million reasons why. For example, if you have 1000 employees doing a particular job, you cant account for every hour they worked or what they did that hour for, but that doesnt mean someone stole money, it just means its impossible to say exactly everything each one of those individuals did while you were paying them. That was his point, the bureaucracy at the Pentagon was costing alot of money and he wanted to fix that problem.

Besides, the money would have been missing before Bush was in office, so if you want to point a finger, point it at Clinton.


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## RetiredGySgt (Jan 23, 2009)

DiveCon said:


> and just what does this have to do with 9/11 conspiracies?



He is implying that the money was spent on the planning and execution of 9/11 attack.


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## DiveCon (Jan 23, 2009)

RetiredGySgt said:


> He is implying that the money was spent on the planning and execution of 9/11 attack.


oh brother


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## Godboy (Jan 23, 2009)

I would also mention that if Rumsfeld hadnt said anything about it at all, we wouldnt be having this conversation right now because no one would even know about it. To suggest that after the Bush administration took 2.3 trillion dollars to fund their "9/11 false flag scenario", they turned around and told the world about it, is preposterous. 

Is there no attempt from the conspiracy guys at applying logic to these allegations?


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## Godboy (Jan 23, 2009)

To believe there was a conspiracy by the Bush administration to kill 3000 Americans on 9/11, requires believing several things. The underlying accusation is that this was done so that the Bush family could make a bunch of money by taking oil from Iraq (which never happened, in spite of all the accusations), while at the same time they would take out Bush seniors old nemisis, Saddam Hussain. Then theres also the claim about the Bush family wanting to make money on the defense spending. There are several problems with these accusations.

Now, by all the liberal media accounts, Bush junior is a dumbass carefree playboy who never earned a penny of his own and got it all from daddy. If there is any truth to that claim, why is it you suddenly are able to believe Bush is such a patriot, that hes willing to risk going to prison for the rest of his life in an attempt to raise this "false flag", just so he can kill some terrorists? Is it for money? His billionaire family is not hurting for money, so playboy Bush's life isnt going to change in any way whatsoever by making more money. He can already buy any house, car or anything he wants, as it is. What would be his motivation for such a risky endeavor? Also, if Bush is the dumbass you all claim he is, how is he now capable of masterminding the biggest conspiracy in world history?

Lets take a look at another claim about 9/11...

Conspiracy guys claim that the pentagon was NOT hit by a plane, but it was actually hit by a cruise missle. My question is, if they wanted people to believe the pentagon was hit by a plane, why didnt they just use a plane? Are you trying to tell me they would rather have to deal with secretly removing all missle wreckage from the site, only to turn around and replace it all with airplane wreckage? I mean seriously guys, cant we be even a little logical about these things?

Not only would they have to fake all that stuff, they would also have to make all the people from Flight 77 disappear, and the plane would have to be hidden too. Why go through all that trouble when you could just crash the real Flight 77 into the Pentagon in the first place? Why bother with the cruise missle at all? 

Are you all aware that its very easy to control planes from the ground? Its called "fly by wire" and its been around a long time believe it or not. The most popular application of it today is probably the CIA designed predator drones, but you will find "fly by wire" components in just about every new plane they build today. Hmm, maybe i shouldnt be telling you conspiracy guys this stuff, because you will only create a new conspiracy, as has constantly been done the past 8 years every time we disprove your previous absurd claims.

Why is it so hard for people to ask themselves simple questions like these?


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## Mr. Jones (Jan 23, 2009)

Godboy said:


> There is such a thing as "conspiracy to commit murder". I hardly think they had JFKs assasination, the moon landing and 9/11 in mind when they talk about conspiracies. Only dumbass people believe in that stuff.


 Only dumbass people think the official gov. version of every single thing that happens is true. People that are afraid to question authority are cowards.
I couldn't care any less about the moon landing, my concern is what kind of society and gov. structure is in place and what is going to have to be done to correct it.  I don't argue with people over the conservative or liberal agenda, both are equally repressive against the people they claim to represent, the real argument is between we the people and them who have taken over the country and subverted it and its principles and what it is supposed to stand for.


> RetiredGySgt
> He is implying that the money was spent on the planning and execution of 9/11 attack.


 It could have been. The question was asked why no one has come forward, and I implied that it could have been used to shut people up. If they wouldn't have been so secretive about the events of 9-11, there would be less suspicion, but they didn't even want to conduct a proper investigation
you don't see anything suspicious or wrong about that? Their version has resulted in more questions then answers, and when those questions are raised, they attack the ones who asked  by calling then names and questioning their patriotism instead.
All the doubters of the official version want is a real and thorough
examination of what happened so their questions can be answered
and all this can be put to rest, WTF is so wrong about that?  Why do they resist? Why would you as an American citizen resist?


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## Big_D (Jan 23, 2009)

eots said:


> *the proof would be found in a real investigation under the terms of the petition and and chaired by Egar Mitchell*
> 
> *.Capt. Edgar Mitchell, U.S. Navy (ret), BS Industrial Management, BS Aeronautical Engineering, Doctor of Science, Aeronautics and Astronautics from MIT  Pilot and Astronaut.  Sixth man to walk on the moon (Apollo 14 mission).*  Patrol bomber and attack plane pilot, U.S. Navy.  Test Pilot, Air Test and Evaluation Squadron 5 (VX-5).  Chief of Project Management Division, Navy Field Office for the Manned Orbiting Laboratory Project.  Graduated first in his class from the Aerospace Research Pilot School, and served as an instructor there.  Recipient of many awards and honors including the Presidential Medal of Freedom, the USN Distinguished Medal and three NASA Group Achievement Awards. Inducted to the Space Hall of Fame in 1979 and the Astronaut Hall of Fame in 1998.  Recipient of honorary doctorates in engineering from New Mexico State University, the University of Akron, Carnegie Mellon University, and a ScD from Embry-Riddle University.  Founder of the Institute of Noetic Sciences.



Where does edgar mitchell say he believes 9/11 was an inside job?  He might want a new investigation but that doesnt mean he believes it was an inside job.  Secondly, I don't know how an astronaut would be more credible than structure engineering professors:
	Dr. Paul F. Mlakar Ph.D., P.E., F.ASCE
o	His View on 9/11: http://mceer.buffalo.edu/meetings/AEI/presentations/06Mlakar-paper.pdf
o	His credentials: http://mceer.buffalo.edu/meetings/AEI/Mlakar.pdf

	Dr. Tim Wilkinson: Professor of engineering at The university of Sydney 
o	His view on 9/11: World Trade Center - Some Engineering Aspects - Civil Engineering - The University of Sydney
o	His credentials: Tim Wilkinson - Civil Engineering - The University of Sydney
	Dr. Hassan Astaneh: Professor of engineering at Berkley 
His view on 9/11: Jets hit towers in most vulnerable spots / Killers appear to have known where to strike 
His Credentials: Engineering News, Date
(located under his photo)


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## Big_D (Jan 23, 2009)

Just out of curiosity mr jones, do you believe the past few presidents collaborated on 9/11?


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## Mr. Jones (Jan 23, 2009)

Godboy said:


> Besides, the money would have been missing before Bush was in office, so if you want to point a finger, point it at Clinton.



Damn right. I believe something of this magnitude would have to extend beyond one political party. We shouldn't get entangled in blaming one specific party, this isn't a left -right thing. That's a distraction. While we argue over that kind of crap, nothing regarding 9-11 gets accomplished and it doesn't benefit the country. FWIW another suspicious fact about the missing trillions is that at the time, the Pentagons comptroller was  Dov Zakheim, who just happened to be a member of the PNAC,  and before that he was with a defense contractor that makes remote control guidance systems for planes. Does that prove anything? Nope just another strange coincidence that should be considered.
Here's some info Mr. Zakheim- if you're interested.
Right Web | Profile | Dov Zakheim


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## eots (Jan 23, 2009)

Big_D said:


> Where does edgar mitchell say he believes 9/11 was an inside job?  He might want a new investigation but that doesnt mean he believes it was an inside job.  Secondly, I don't know how an astronaut would be more credible than structure engineering professors:
> &#8226;	Dr. Paul F. Mlakar Ph.D., P.E., F.ASCE
> o	His View on 9/11: http://mceer.buffalo.edu/meetings/AEI/presentations/06Mlakar-paper.pdf
> o	His credentials: http://mceer.buffalo.edu/meetings/AEI/Mlakar.pdf
> ...



first off I NEVER SAID Edgar said it was an inside job...he said what he said..it is there to be read...nmany of the other signatory's have stated inside job ..but Edgar has only said the official story is implausible and it needs to be investigated

secondly there are experts in intelligence ..flight . flight crashes .physics..engineering..
are all required in a proper investigation of 911

and Edgar is not just a astronaut he also has a engineering degree


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## Mr. Jones (Jan 23, 2009)

Big_D said:


> Just out of curiosity mr jones, do you believe the past few presidents collaborated on 9/11?


Look just to clarify where I stand on all this, since I'm new here and all.
I believe that there are people with the power to steer this country in the way they want it. They come from both parties. I don't take sides, I condemn them both.
I think  the establishment of the 2 party system is in place to keep us arguing among ourselves, while those in control continue to have their way with our country and us. How could I possibly support the Democratic party when looking back at history it was a Democrat who helped circumvent the Constitution by signing the Federal Reserve Act and putting our countries monetary system in the hands of private bankers? From then on both parties have been complicit in this scam. I also believe  there is such a thing as a cabal of power brokers who control government behind the scenes. Roosevelt said
_""The real truth of the matter is, as you and I know, that a financial element in the larger centers has owned every Government since the days of Andrew Jackson..." _
Bill Clintons professor at Georgetown, Carroll Quigley once wrote _"There does exist and has existed for a generation, an international...network which operates, to some extent, in the way the radical right believes the Communists act. _  This powerful entity, call them the hidden hand, shadow government whatever, was given absolute control of the finances of the United States when the Federal Reserve Act, and the  Federal Reserve System, was set into motion. The USA has not been controlled by its citizens since then. They don't give a shit what party affiliation their CEO (president) has. We as the people who live in this nation have to get our heads out of our asses and see things as they are and how it affect us and our families, not they way these criminals want us to see it. How have we benefited by doing that? 
So I would have to answer the above question with a yes, because somewhere down the line the past few presidents, ANY president could have done something to prevent what happened on 9-11. Something could have been done to change the course this country was on prior to 9-11, it would have had to start by separating themselves and in turn our country, from the monetary banking system that was put in place to give the bastards the power
 to achieve what they have. The only 2 presidents I have read about that tried were assassinated, Lincoln and Kennedy. In order to try to understand the root problem this country is infested with, I  spent time learning about the monetary system and its roots, and who controls it. I still don't know all there is to know or have all the answers I'm not that smart, but I have taught myself a lot more then what I did before and have come to the 
conclusions I've tried to explain a little of here. There is more to all of this shit then meets the eye, and that it goes way back in history, what happened then has greatly affected what we are experiencing now. That's just my .02 on things


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## eots (Jan 23, 2009)

[ame=http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=nHtOquNXJng&feature=related]YouTube - JFK-Secret societies PT2 - Unedited[/ame]


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## eots (Jan 23, 2009)

[ame=http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=8y06NSBBRtY&feature=related]YouTube - Eisenhower warns us of the military industrial complex.[/ame]


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## DiveCon (Jan 23, 2009)

eots said:


> YouTube - JFK-Secret societies PT2 - Unedited


yeah, he was talking about Soviet communism


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## RetiredGySgt (Jan 23, 2009)

Mr. Jones said:


> Damn right. I believe something of this magnitude would have to extend beyond one political party. We shouldn't get entangled in blaming one specific party, this isn't a left -right thing. That's a distraction. While we argue over that kind of crap, nothing regarding 9-11 gets accomplished and it doesn't benefit the country. FWIW another suspicious fact about the missing trillions is that at the time, the Pentagons comptroller was  Dov Zakheim, who just happened to be a member of the PNAC,  and before that he was with a defense contractor that makes remote control guidance systems for planes. Does that prove anything? Nope just another strange coincidence that should be considered.
> Here's some info Mr. Zakheim- if you're interested.
> Right Web | Profile | Dov Zakheim



Ya cause well Cheney used that secret Nintendo Controller to fly those planes into the Twin Towers. When ever you turds start with that you lose all credibility. Next you will be telling us a missile hit the Pentagon right? And that the Pennsylvania flight didn't crash at all.


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## Toro (Jan 23, 2009)

Mr. Jones said:


> It is only those who benefit most from &#8216;conspiracies&#8217; who have an inherent bias against them. Those who benefit from &#8216;conspiracy&#8217; have vested interests in discounting them.



Nonsense.

I have been named in not one, but two conspiracies.  If you google my name (and no, my name isn't "Toro") you will find people have written about me being involved in a conspiracy.   And it is all absolute bullshit.

I had always been highly suspicious of alleged conspiracies involving shadowy groups, involved in nefarious dealings, linked by circumstantial and anecdotal evidence.   After actually being named in one, with all these apparent fantastical dealings, I was even more convinced that most of them are garbage.  

I had absolutely nothing to gain from my so-called involvement in this non-existent conspiracy, though I'm sure someone would find some reason why I would have benefited.  After all, you can always find _some_ reason why someone would benefit.  So it certainly is not just "those who benefit most from &#8216;conspiracies&#8217; who have an inherent bias against them."


----------



## eots (Jan 23, 2009)

bullshit..kenndy gave speech's on communism and called it communism and when he spoke of secret societies he called them secret societies...


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## DiveCon (Jan 23, 2009)

eots said:


> bullshit..kenndy gave speech's on communism and called it communism and when he spoke of secret societies he called them secret societies...


its just YOU nutters that called it secret societies


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## Big_D (Jan 23, 2009)

eots said:


> first off I NEVER SAID Edgar said it was an inside job...he said what he said..it is there to be read...
> 
> You seem to say it here:
> http://www.usmessageboard.com/consp...ego-plane-crash-an-inside-job.html#post931486
> ...


----------



## eots (Jan 23, 2009)

Big_D said:


> eots said:
> 
> 
> > first off I NEVER SAID Edgar said it was an inside job...he said what he said..it is there to be read...
> ...


----------



## eots (Jan 23, 2009)

DiveCon said:


> eots said:
> 
> 
> > bullshit..kenndy gave speech's on communism and called it communism and when he spoke of secret societies he called them secret societies...
> ...



so kenndy was a nutter and you are a ?????


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## DiveCon (Jan 23, 2009)

eots said:


> you have flawed science that allows for a mathematically impossible series of highly improbable events all occurring in order to try and fit science to the story


 except none of them were actually mathematically impossible


----------



## DiveCon (Jan 23, 2009)

eots said:


> DiveCon said:
> 
> 
> > eots said:
> ...


no, moron, you are calling them that, Kennedy never did


----------



## Big_D (Jan 24, 2009)

eots said:


> Big_D said:
> 
> 
> > eots said:
> ...


----------



## Mr. Jones (Jan 24, 2009)

Toro said:


> Mr. Jones said:
> 
> 
> > It is only those who benefit most from conspiracies who have an inherent bias against them. Those who benefit from conspiracy have vested interests in discounting them.
> ...


 The people in PNAC sure did.
So did Larry Silverstein, and all those involved with placing the put options. And many more. Your situation can't be judged since we don't know any details, and honestly wouldn't be something that's anybody's business, or concern, I'm sure whatever you were alleged to have been involved in wouldn't compare in scale to what we're talking about . Like I said the real conspiracy theory is the outrageous claim that 19 Arabs hijacked 4 planes with boxcutters led by a cave dwelling evil genius, and managed to coincidentally pick the exact same day that our air defenses were conducting mock
drills for the same scenario, and this managed to obliterate 2 -110 story skyscrapers AND a 3rd that wasn't hit by a plane. Good God WTF does it take for people to put a couple of brain cells together and see this shit just doesn't make sense. I can totally understand the level of disbelief one feels about this. I started out thinking there is no way anybody in our own government could be involved. I attended fundraisers, rally's, got so pissed off I wanted to kill those damned M-kers who did it. My brother at age 34 enlisted and did a tour in Iraq
and got his foot blown off.  As time went by I set out to DISPROVE claims of gov. involvement, but then there were no WMDs, and the president said at a press conference,  he didn't feel Bin Ladin was worth even thinking about, and that was after he tried to block an investigation. The more time I dedicated to learning about this, the more I found things that went against the gov's account. The biggest problem I have is that so many people are GDned scared to face this possibility, and deny the hell out it. Could some of you deniers tell me what is so far fetched about a 9-11 false flag op and coverup? I ask in all seriousness.


----------



## Toro (Jan 24, 2009)

Mr. Jones said:


> The people in PNAC sure did.
> So did Larry Silverstein, and all those involved with placing the put options. And many more. Your situation can't be judged since we don't know any details, and honestly wouldn't be something that's anybody's business, or concern, I'm sure whatever you were alleged to have been involved in wouldn't compare in scale to what we're talking about .



Of course not.  Nothing does.  But the details are well known as it involved the collapse of one of the largest companies in the world. I was even called to Congress and testified in front of the Commerce Committee.  So it was not inconsequential.  



> The biggest problem I have is that so many people are GDned scared to face this possibility, and deny the hell out it. Could some of you deniers tell me what is so far fetched about a 9-11 false flag op and coverup? I ask in all seriousness.



I am certainly not scared of any answer.  And I am disgusted with the Republican party and think Bush was the worst President of my lifetime, so its not like I have a political axe to grind.  I'd be more than happy to acknowledge that the conspiracists are correct if I thought they were.  But the more I looked at their theories, the more dissuaded I became.

The greater and more elaborate the alleged conspiracy, the greater the burden of proof.  For example, The fact that some people might benefit from an event does not mean they were involved in the event, whether it is PNAC or Larry Silverstein or whomever.  Circumstantial, anecdotal or coincidental evidence - which is what the entire 9/11 conspiracy theories rely upon - does not prove anything.  The fact that WMD or that that government mislead or lied about other things does not mean they are lying about 9/11. (Though of course you are not going to get the whole story out of the government.  You don't get the whole story out of the government when your mail goes missing, so why would you expect to get the full story regarding of the greatest foreign attacks on our soil in the history of the nation?)

You asked about the stand-down, and told people to put a couple of brain cells together.  Okay, what happened to the plane that crashed into the Pentagon?  The conspiracists tell us that it was a cruise missile that hit the Pentagon.  Well, where did all the passengers on the plane go?  What happened to the plane?  We have flight records that the plane took off.  We have people who boarded the passengers and checked their luggage.  We have flight controllers who tracked the plane.  So where did it go?  Planes just don't disappear.


----------



## eots (Jan 24, 2009)

Toro said:


> Mr. Jones said:
> 
> 
> > The people in PNAC sure did.
> ...


----------



## Toro (Jan 24, 2009)

eots

Could you do me, and I assume most other people a favor?  I'd really like to engage what you are saying, but it is too much to read, especially when I'm taking a break reading a long proposal for work.  Instead, summarize it in a paragraph or two and provide a link to what you C&P.  Thanks.


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## eots (Jan 24, 2009)

the official conspiracy theory is unproven..has not meet the burden of proof and the fact that top level military personal are unable to get a interview or forum outside of Alex Jones and independent film and instead choose to refer to as rosies conspiracy theory to minipulate and control your thinking 
why dont they call it * Deets *wacky conspiracy and interveiw him ?

*
Dwain Deets, MS Physics, MS Eng &#8211; Former Director, Aerospace Projects, NASA Dryden Flight Research Center.  Before this appointment, he served as Director, Research Engineering Division at Dryden.  Recipient of the NASA Exceptional Service Award and the Presidential Meritorious Rank Award in the Senior Executive Service (1988).*  Selected presenter of the Wright Brothers Lectureship in Aeronautics, a distinguished speaking engagement sponsored by the American Institute of Aeronautics and Astronautics (AIAA) (1986).  Included in "Who's Who in Science and Engineering" 1993 - 2000.  Former Chairman of the Aerospace Control and Guidance Systems Committee of the Society of Automotive Engineers.  Former Member, AIAA Committee on Society and Aerospace Technology.  37 year NASA career. 
*Statement in support of Architects and Engineers petition:
"The many visual images (massive structural members being hurled horizontally, huge pyroclastic clouds, etc.) leave no doubt in my mind explosives were involved [in the destruction of the World Trade Center]."* AE911Truth 


*Signatory: Petition requesting a reinvestigation of 9/11, signed by more than 500 Architects and Engineers: *

"On Behalf of the People of the United States of America, the undersigned Architects and Engineers for 9/11 Truth and affiliates  hereby petition for, and demand, a truly independent investigation with subpoena power in order to uncover the full truth surrounding the events of 9/11/01 - specifically the collapse of the World Trade Center Towers and Building 7.  We believe that there is sufficient doubt about the official story and therefore that the 9/11 investigation must be re-opened and must include a full inquiry into the possible use of explosives that may have been the actual cause behind the destruction of the World Trade Center Towers and WTC Building 7." Sign the Petition 

Patriots Question 9/11 - Responsible Criticism of the 9/11 Commission Report


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## DiveCon (Jan 24, 2009)

eots said:


> the official conspiracy theory is unproven..has not meet the burden of proof and the fact that top level military personal are unable to get a interview or forum outside of Alex Jones and independent film and instead choose to refer to as rosies conspiracy theory to minipulate and control your thinking
> why dont they call it *Deets *wacky conspiracy and interveiw him ?
> 
> 
> <snipped bullshit that you have copy & pasted a MULTITUDE of time>


 yes, anyone that believe this bullshit you continue to post is WACKY
the official story(as much as has been released) is correct and backed up by the evidence 
only morons continue to think otherwise


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## eots (Jan 24, 2009)

divecon said:


> eots said:
> 
> 
> > the official conspiracy theory is unproven..has not meet the burden of proof and the fact that top level military personal are unable to get a interview or forum outside of alex jones and independent film and instead choose to refer to as rosies conspiracy theory to minipulate and control your thinking
> ...



and the proof is what ?...mr moron...


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## DiveCon (Jan 24, 2009)

eots said:


> divecon said:
> 
> 
> > eots said:
> ...


you post these things from your nutter websites and act as if that is proof, it is NOT
you are the moron, asshole


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## Big_D (Jan 24, 2009)

eots said:


> the official conspiracy theory is unproven..has not meet the burden of proof and the fact that top level military personal are unable to get a interview or forum outside of Alex Jones and independent film and instead choose to refer to as rosies conspiracy theory to minipulate and control your thinking
> why dont they call it * Deets *wacky conspiracy and interveiw him ?



As I have shown you, the 2002 and 2003 forensic engineer of the year winners have written papers that disagree with your opinion.  I have also shown countless other engineering professors and experts that also disagree with you.


----------



## DiveCon (Jan 24, 2009)

Big_D said:


> eots said:
> 
> 
> > the official conspiracy theory is unproven..has not meet the burden of proof and the fact that top level military personal are unable to get a interview or forum outside of Alex Jones and independent film and instead choose to refer to as rosies conspiracy theory to minipulate and control your thinking
> ...


it doesnt matter, he will only trust the lies he finds on his nutter troofer sites
facts dont matter
he cant even back up that these people he quotes actually support his shit


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## Big_D (Jan 24, 2009)

One of many issues that I never understood about the conspiracy theorist point of view, is how they can believe the government could have placed explosives throughout the 110 WTC building without anyone noticing.  The world record for a controlled demolition is the former 33 story J.L. Hudson Department Store.  According to this article (Controlled Demolition, Inc. | Press Release) it took them 24 days to plant the explosives throughout this building, which was of course abandoned.  Meanwhile, the conspirators believe that our govt could have placed explosives throughout two 110 story buildings which would obviously taken months if not years to finish. All at the same time they would have to be hiding the demolition and doing it without anyone noticing.  According to this site (CBC News Indepth: September 11) the WTC had 80,000 visitors a day and had more than 55,000 workers employed there.  However, none of these people reported seeing someone planting demolition nor did they find it hidden somewhere.  A job of this undertaking would have certainly been uncovered by someone, yet it was not.  Obviously, a conspiracy is impossible.


----------



## DiveCon (Jan 24, 2009)

Big_D said:


> One of many issues that I never understood about the conspiracy theorist point of view, is how they can believe the government could have placed explosives throughout the 110 WTC building without anyone noticing.  The world record for a controlled demolition is the former 33 story J.L. Hudson Department Store.  According to this article (Controlled Demolition, Inc. | Press Release) it took them 24 days to plant the explosives throughout this building, which was of course abandoned.  Meanwhile, the conspirators believe that our govt could have placed explosives throughout two 110 story buildings which would obviously taken months if not years to finish. All at the same time they would have to be hiding the demolition and doing it without anyone noticing.  According to this site (CBC News Indepth: September 11) the WTC had 80,000 visitors a day and had more than 55,000 workers employed there.  However, none of these people reported seeing someone planting demolition nor did they find it hidden somewhere.  A job of this undertaking would have certainly been uncovered by someone, yet it was not.  Obviously, a conspiracy is impossible.


and the 47 story WTC7
and not one of the guys that did the wiring has ever come forward to say, "yeah, i helped wire the explosives"


----------



## eots (Jan 24, 2009)

Big_D said:


> One of many issues that I never understood about the conspiracy theorist point of view, is how they can believe the government could have placed explosives throughout the 110 WTC building without anyone noticing.  The world record for a controlled demolition is the former 33 story J.L. Hudson Department Store.  According to this article (Controlled Demolition, Inc. | Press Release) it took them 24 days to plant the explosives throughout this building, which was of course abandoned.  Meanwhile, the conspirators believe that our govt could have placed explosives throughout two 110 story buildings which would obviously taken months if not years to finish. All at the same time they would have to be hiding the demolition and doing it without anyone noticing.  According to this site (CBC News Indepth: September 11) the WTC had 80,000 visitors a day and had more than 55,000 workers employed there.  However, none of these people reported seeing someone planting demolition nor did they find it hidden somewhere.  A job of this undertaking would have certainly been uncovered by someone, yet it was not.  Obviously, a conspiracy is impossible.



you make a lot of assumptions on what is possible. and there are people with much more experience and involved in covert operations  that  I have posted that disagree with your assumption....it may very well of taken months or years... a full peer reviewed inquire intro all aspects of 911 is warranted  and required for definitive answers to this cover-up 

*Letter to Congress regarding the 9/11 Commission Report 9/13/04, signed by the following 25 military, intelligence, and law enforcement veterans*: Project On Government Oversight 


"[W]e the undersigned wish to bring to the attention of the Congress and the people of the United States what we believe are serious shortcomings in the report and its recommendations.  

*Omission is one of the major flaws in the Commissions report.  We are aware of significant issues and cases that were duly reported to the commission by those of us with direct knowledge, but somehow escaped attention.  *

The omission of such serious and applicable issues and information by itself renders the report flawed, and casts doubt on the validity of many of its recommendations. ... 

The Commission, with its incomplete report of "facts and circumstances", intentional avoidance of assigning accountability, and disregard for the knowledge, expertise and experience of those who actually do the job, has now set about pressuring our Congress and our nation to hastily implement all its recommendations. ... 

*We the undersigned, who have worked within various government agencies (FBI, CIA, FAA, DIA, Customs) responsible for national security and public safety, call upon you in Congress to include the voices of those with first-hand knowledge and expertise in the important issues at hand.  We stand ready to do our part." *Project On Government Oversight

Patriots Question 9/11 - Responsible Criticism of the 9/11 Commission Report


----------



## DiveCon (Jan 24, 2009)

eots said:


> Big_D said:
> 
> 
> > One of many issues that I never understood about the conspiracy theorist point of view, is how they can believe the government could have placed explosives throughout the 110 WTC building without anyone noticing. The world record for a controlled demolition is the former 33 story J.L. Hudson Department Store. According to this article (Controlled Demolition, Inc. | Press Release) it took them 24 days to plant the explosives throughout this building, which was of course abandoned. Meanwhile, the conspirators believe that our govt could have placed explosives throughout two 110 story buildings which would obviously taken months if not years to finish. All at the same time they would have to be hiding the demolition and doing it without anyone noticing. According to this site (CBC News Indepth: September 11) the WTC had 80,000 visitors a day and had more than 55,000 workers employed there. However, none of these people reported seeing someone planting demolition nor did they find it hidden somewhere. A job of this undertaking would have certainly been uncovered by someone, yet it was not. Obviously, a conspiracy is impossible.
> ...


yet no where do they claim it was an inside job, nor that it was allowed to happen


----------



## eots (Jan 24, 2009)

*Lt. Col. Karen U. Kwiatkowski, PhD, U.S. Air Force (ret) &#8211; Former Political-Military Affairs Officer in the Office of the Secretary of Defense. Also served on the staff of the Director of the National Security Agency. 20-year Air Force career*.  Member adjunct faculty, Political Science Department, James Madison University.  Instructor, University of Maryland University College and American Public University System.  Author of African Crisis Response Initiative: Past Present and Future (2000) and Expeditionary Air Operations in Africa: Challenges and Solutions (2001). 
Contributor to 9/11 and American Empire: Intellectuals Speak Out 8/23/06:  Account of Lt. Col. Karen Kwiatkowski, Pentagon employee and *eyewitness to the events at the Pentagon on 9/11.*  "I believe the Commission failed to deeply examine the topic at hand, failed to apply scientific rigor to its assessment of events leading up to and including 9/11, failed to produce a believable and unbiased summary of what happened, failed to fully examine why it happened, and even failed to include a set of unanswered questions for future research. ... 

*It is as a scientist that I have the most trouble with the official government conspiracy theory, mainly because it does not satisfy the rules of probability or physics.  The collapses of the World Trade Center buildings clearly violate the laws of probability and physics. ...* 

There was a dearth of visible debris on the relatively unmarked [Pentagon] lawn, where I stood only minutes after the impact.  Beyond this strange absence of airliner debris, there was no sign of the kind of damage to the Pentagon structure one would expect from the impact of a large airliner. This visible evidence or lack thereof *may also have been apparent to the secretary of defense [Donald Rumsfeld], who in an unfortunate slip of the tongue referred to the aircraft that slammed into the Pentagon as a "missile". ... *
*Signatory: Petition requesting a reinvestigation of 9/11*



*Capt. Daniel Davis, U.S. Army &#8211; Former U.S. Army Air Defense Officer and NORAD Tac Director. * Decorated with the Bronze Star and the Soldiers Medal for bravery under fire and the Purple Heart for injuries sustained in Viet Nam.  Also served in the Army Air Defense Command as Nike Missile Battery Control Officer for the Chicago-Milwaukee Defense Area.  Founder and former CEO of Turbine Technology Services Corp., a turbine (jet engine) services and maintenance company (15 years).  Former Senior Manager at General Electric Turbine (jet) Engine Division (15 years).  Private pilot.

Statement to this website 3/23/07: "As a former General Electric Turbine engineering specialist and manager and then CEO of a turbine engineering company, I can guarantee that none of the high tech, high temperature alloy engines on any of the four planes that crashed on 9/11 would be completely destroyed, burned, shattered or melted in any crash or fire.  Wrecked, yes, but not destroyed.  Where are all of those engines, particularly at the Pentagon?  If jet powered aircraft crashed on 9/11, those engines, plus wings and tail assembly, would be there. 

Additionally, in my experience as an officer in NORAD as a Tactical Director for the Chicago-Milwaukee Air Defense and as a current private pilot, there is no way that an aircraft on instrument flight plans (all commercial flights are IFR) would not be intercepted when they deviate from their flight plan, turn off their transponders, or stop communication with Air Traffic Control.  No way!  With very bad luck, perhaps one could slip by, but no there's no way all four of them could! 

Finally, going over the hill and highway and crashing into the Pentagon right at the wall/ground interface is nearly impossible for even a small slow single engine airplane and no way for a 757. Maybe the best pilot in the world could accomplish that but not these unskilled "terrorists". 
*
Attempts to obscure facts by calling them a "Conspiracy Theory" does not change the truth.  It seems, "Something is rotten in the State."*
*Signatory: Petition requesting a reinvestigation of 9/11*

*
some of them say it in there individual statements*...


----------



## DiveCon (Jan 24, 2009)

eots said:


> *Lt. Col. Karen U. Kwiatkowski, PhD, U.S. Air Force (ret) &#8211; Former Political-Military Affairs Officer in the Office of the Secretary of Defense. Also served on the staff of the Director of the National Security Agency. 20-year Air Force career*. Member adjunct faculty, Political Science Department, James Madison University. Instructor, University of Maryland University College and American Public University System. Author of African Crisis Response Initiative: Past Present and Future (2000) and Expeditionary Air Operations in Africa: Challenges and Solutions (2001).
> Contributor to 9/11 and American Empire: Intellectuals Speak Out 8/23/06: Account of Lt. Col. Karen Kwiatkowski, Pentagon employee and *eyewitness to the events at the Pentagon on 9/11.* "I believe the Commission failed to deeply examine the topic at hand, failed to apply scientific rigor to its assessment of events leading up to and including 9/11, failed to produce a believable and unbiased summary of what happened, failed to fully examine why it happened, and even failed to include a set of unanswered questions for future research. ...
> 
> *It is as a scientist that I have the most trouble with the official government conspiracy theory, mainly because it does not satisfy the rules of probability or physics. The collapses of the World Trade Center buildings clearly violate the laws of probability and physics. ...*
> ...


then they have lost their minds
because there IS evidence of what they claim wasnt there

and what i find even more amazing is, you cant seem to get any of these people to go public beyond these nutter sites


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## eots (Jan 24, 2009)

DiveCon said:


> eots said:
> 
> 
> > *Lt. Col. Karen U. Kwiatkowski, PhD, U.S. Air Force (ret) &#8211; Former Political-Military Affairs Officer in the Office of the Secretary of Defense. Also served on the staff of the Director of the National Security Agency. 20-year Air Force career*. Member adjunct faculty, Political Science Department, James Madison University. Instructor, University of Maryland University College and American Public University System. Author of African Crisis Response Initiative: Past Present and Future (2000) and Expeditionary Air Operations in Africa: Challenges and Solutions (2001).
> ...



*its called the controled media*



Morgan Reynolds at Chicago 911 Truth Conference 02 Jun 2006



Morgan Reynolds, PhD &#8211; Chief Economist, U.S. Department of Labor under George W. Bush 2001 - 2002.  Former Director of the Criminal Justice Center at the National Center for Policy Analysis.  Professor Emeritus, Economics, Texas A&M University. 

Contributing author to 9/11 and American Empire (Vol I) &#8211; Intellectuals Speak Out (2006). 
Video interview with Alex Jones 6/2/06: "I first began to suspect that 9/11 was in inside job when the Bush-Cheney Administration invaded Iraq. &#8230; We can prove that the government&#8217;s story is false."  http://video.goo 


Essay 6/9/05: "It is hard to exaggerate the importance of a scientific debate over the cause(s) of the collapse of the twin towers [each 1300+ feet tall, 110 stories] and building 7. If the official wisdom on the collapses is wrong, as I believe it is, then policy based on such erroneous engineering analysis is not likely [to] prove to be sound."  http://www.l...   


Editor's note: WTC Building 7 was 610 feet tall, 47 stories.  It would have been the tallest building in 33 states.  Although it was not hit by an airplane, it completely collapsed into a pile of rubble in less than 7 seconds at 5:20 p.m. on 9/11, seven hours after the collapses of the Twin Towers.  However, no mention of its collapse appears in the 9/11 Commission's "full and complete account of the circumstances surrounding the September 11, 2001 terrorist attacks."  Watch the collapse video here.  And six years after 9/11, the Federal government has yet to publish its promised final report that explains the cause of its collapse. 


Bio:


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## DiveCon (Jan 24, 2009)

eots said:


> DiveCon said:
> 
> 
> > eots said:
> ...


get some of them to join here


----------



## Luissa (Jan 24, 2009)

DiveCon said:


> Big_D said:
> 
> 
> > One of many issues that I never understood about the conspiracy theorist point of view, is how they can believe the government could have placed explosives throughout the 110 WTC building without anyone noticing.  The world record for a controlled demolition is the former 33 story J.L. Hudson Department Store.  According to this article (Controlled Demolition, Inc. | Press Release) it took them 24 days to plant the explosives throughout this building, which was of course abandoned.  Meanwhile, the conspirators believe that our govt could have placed explosives throughout two 110 story buildings which would obviously taken months if not years to finish. All at the same time they would have to be hiding the demolition and doing it without anyone noticing.  According to this site (CBC News Indepth: September 11) the WTC had 80,000 visitors a day and had more than 55,000 workers employed there.  However, none of these people reported seeing someone planting demolition nor did they find it hidden somewhere.  A job of this undertaking would have certainly been uncovered by someone, yet it was not.  Obviously, a conspiracy is impossible.
> ...


and what does he think the planes were? Just for show?
If I was going to destroy a building with explosives I would spend millions probably wiring the place and then fly a plane into the building just for the dramatic effect!Maybe that is what is wrong with the economy, our government spent so much money bombing the towers and they got the idea from Lord Of The Rings!


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## Big_D (Jan 24, 2009)

eots said:


> Big_D said:
> 
> 
> > One of many issues that I never understood about the conspiracy theorist point of view, is how they can believe the government could have placed explosives throughout the 110 WTC building without anyone noticing.  The world record for a controlled demolition is the former 33 story J.L. Hudson Department Store.  According to this article (Controlled Demolition, Inc. | Press Release) it took them 24 days to plant the explosives throughout this building, which was of course abandoned.  Meanwhile, the conspirators believe that our govt could have placed explosives throughout two 110 story buildings which would obviously taken months if not years to finish. All at the same time they would have to be hiding the demolition and doing it without anyone noticing.  According to this site (CBC News Indepth: September 11) the WTC had 80,000 visitors a day and had more than 55,000 workers employed there.  However, none of these people reported seeing someone planting demolition nor did they find it hidden somewhere.  A job of this undertaking would have certainly been uncovered by someone, yet it was not.  Obviously, a conspiracy is impossible.
> ...


----------



## DiveCon (Jan 24, 2009)

Luissa said:


> DiveCon said:
> 
> 
> > Big_D said:
> ...


yeah, if you got the buildings wired, why risk damaging the wiring by flying planes into the buildings?
why not just claim the terrorists infiltrated the maintenance staff and secretly wired the building over a period of years


----------



## eots (Jan 24, 2009)

> Big_D said:
> 
> 
> > eots said:
> ...


----------



## Big_D (Jan 24, 2009)

eots said:


> ALL ASSUMPTIONS



What assumptions am I making?



My quote:Fact: In order to bring down the WTC buildings through controlled demolition, workers would have had to hidden explosives and wires throughout the buildings.
Your quote:


eots said:


> with the technolgy and methiods in common use



Can you clarify this statement?  In common use, wires and explosives aren't hidden.  Your quote doesn't make any sense.


My quote:Fact: Fact: The WTC buildings had 80,000 visitors (almost 30 million per year) and had 55,000 employees that arrived on a daily basis yet nobody has said they found explosives.


eots said:


> so what


So?  Does that not mean anything to you that _all_ those people went through the WTC buildings on a yearly basis and NOBODY has came forward with proof that the buildings were brought down through controlled demolition?



eots said:


> there where reports of unprecedented power downs at wtc and of unexplained workers but the testimony was ignored bt the commmision...and lets not forget Marvin Bush's role in security at wtc



Is that it?  First of all, just because there were power downs and unexplained workers it doesn't mean there was a conspiracy.  Secondly, there were 30 million visitors to the WTC a year and nobody came forward to state that they found explosives in walls nor did they see workers plant demotion.  If our govt did blow up the towers, someone would have came forward with evidence showing that there were explosives hidden in walls by now.  The fact that nobody has came forward with this evidence is proof that bush, clinton, and company didn't blow up the towers.  



eots said:


> so you immediately just ignore the individual statements the signatory's ??



Of course not.  I will take their signature for what it is worth and that is the desire for a new investigation.  Their signature is not a statement that they believe it was an inside job.



eots said:


> *
> The Destruction of the World Trade Center: Why the Official Account Cannot Be True*
> The Destruction of the World Trade Center: Why the Official Account Cannot Be True



Again, you take the word of a philosophy professor over actual experts.  As one of my experts said, there would be miles of wires found in the debris from the towers.  However, nothing of the such was found.  How can you explain that?


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## eots (Jan 24, 2009)

Big_D said:


> eots said:
> 
> 
> > ALL ASSUMPTIONS
> ...



as individuals however the have indeed gave the opinion inside job

and this professor has the admiration and support iof gentlemen such as these 


*David L. Griscom, PhD  Research physicist, retired in 2001 from Naval Research Laboratory (NRL) in Washington, DC, after 33 years service.  *Fellow of the American Physical Society.  Fulbright-García Robles Fellow at Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México in Mexico City (1997).  Visiting professorships of research at the Universities of Paris and Saint-Etienne, France, and Tokyo Institute of Technology (2000 - 2003).  Adjunct Professor of Materials Science and Engineering, University of Arizona (2004 - 2005).  Winner of the 1993 N. F. Mott Award sponsored by the Journal of Non-Crystalline Solids, the 1995 Otto Schott Award offered by the Carl-Zeiss-Stiftung (Germany), a 1996 Outstanding Graduate School Alumnus Award at Brown University, and the 1997 Sigma Xi Pure Science Award at NRL. Principal author of 109 of his 185 published works, a body of work which is highly cited by his peers.  Officially credited with largest number of papers (5) by any author on list of 100 most cited articles authored at NRL between 1973 and 1988. 
Personal blog 1/5/07: *"David Ray Griffin has *web-published a splendid, highly footnoted account of The Destruction of the World Trade Center: Why the Official Account Cannot Be True:  This scholarly work, rich in eyewitness accounts, includes 11 separate pieces of evidence that the World Trade Center towers 1, 2 [each 1300+ feet tall, 110 stories], and 7 were brought down by explosives.  [Editor's note: WTC Building 7 was 610 feet tall, 47 stories.  It would have been the tallest building in 33 states.  Although it was not hit by an airplane, it completely collapsed into a pile of rubble in less than 7 seconds at 5:20 p.m. on 9/11, seven hours after the collapses of the Twin Towers.  However, no mention of its collapse appears in the 9/11 Commission's "full and complete account of the circumstances surrounding the September 11, 2001 terrorist attacks."  Watch the collapse video here.  And six years after 9/11, the Federal government has yet to publish its promised final report that explains the cause of its collapse.]

... I implore my fellow physicists and engineers who may have the time, expertise, and (ideally) supercomputer access to get to work on the physics of the World Trade Center collapses and publish their findings in refereed journals like, say, the Journal of Applied Physics. 

The issue of knowing who was really behind the 9/11 attacks is of paramount importance to the future of our country, because the "official" assumption that it was the work of 19 Arab amateurs (1) does not match the available facts and (2) has led directly to the deplorable Patriot Act, the illegal Iraq war, NSA spying on ordinary Americans, repudiation of the Geneva Conventions, and the repeal of habeas corpus (a fundamental point of law that has been with us since the signing of the Magna Carta in 1215). 

Surely these Orwellian consequences of public ignorance constitute more than sufficient motivation for any patriotic American physicist or engineer to join the search for 9/11 Truth!" http://impactglassman 


Member: Scholars for 9/11 Truth and Justice   Association Statement: "Scholars for 9/11 Truth and Justice is a non-partisan organization consisting of independent researchers and activists engaged in uncovering the true nature of the September 11, 2001 attacks." 


Bio: David L Griscom PhD Physicist bio

*

William Christison  Former National Intelligence Officer and Director of the CIA's *Office of Regional and Political Analysis.  29-year CIA veteran.

Endorsement of Debunking 9/11 Debunking 3/30/07:  "David Ray Griffins Debunking 9/11 Debunking is a superb compendium of the strong body of evidence showing the official U.S. Government story of what happened on September 11, 2001 to be almost certainly a monstrous series of lies.  Tragically, the entire course of U.S. foreign and domestic policies since that date has grown out of these almost certain falsehoods.  This single book could (and should) provide the basis for the United Nations International Court of Justice, or some specially constituted global body (independent of the U.S.) to investigate with highest priority, and publicly report its findings about, the charge that unknown elements within the U.S. Government, and possibly some individuals elsewhere closely allied to the U.S., caused or contributed to causing the events of September 11 to happen." Amazon.com: Online Shopping for Electronics, Apparel, Computers, Books, DVDs & more 


*
Dwain Deets, MS Physics, MS Eng  Former Director, Aerospace Projects, NASA Dryden Flight Research Center.  Before this appointment, he served as Director, Research Engineering Division at Dryden.  Recipient of the NASA Exceptional Service Award and the Presidential Meritorious Rank Award* in the Senior Executive Service (1988).  Selected presenter of the Wright Brothers Lectureship in Aeronautics, a distinguished speaking engagement sponsored by the American Institute of Aeronautics and Astronautics (AIAA) (1986).  Included in "Who's Who in Science and Engineering" 1993 - 2000.  Former Chairman of the Aerospace Control and Guidance Systems Committee of the Society of Automotive Engineers.  Former Member, AIAA Committee on Society and Aerospace Technology.  37 year NASA career. 
Statement in support of Architects and Engineers petition:
"The many visual images (massive structural members being hurled horizontally, huge pyroclastic clouds, etc.) leave no doubt in my mind explosives were involved [in the destruction of the World Trade Center]."  AE911Truth 

*
Signatory: Petition* requesting a reinvestigation of 9/11, signed by more than 500 Architects and Engineers: 

"On Behalf of the People of the United States of America, the undersigned Architects and Engineers for 9/11 Truth and affiliates  hereby petition for, and demand, a truly independent investigation with subpoena power in order to uncover the full truth surrounding the events of 9/11/01 - specifically the collapse of the World Trade Center Towers and Building 7.  We believe that there is sufficient doubt about the official story and therefore that the 9/11 investigation must be re-opened and must include a full inquiry into the possible use of explosives that may have been the actual cause behind the destruction of the World Trade Center Towers and WTC Building 7." Sign the Petition 


Editor's 

Essay Stop Belittling the Theories About September 11  8/14/06: "I now think there is persuasive evidence that the events of September did not unfold as the Bush administration and the 9/11 Commission would have us believe.  An airliner almost certainly did not hit The Pentagon.  The North and South Towers of the World Trade Center almost certainly did not collapse and fall to earth because hijacked aircraft hit them." Dissident Voice 


Article 9/7/06: "*David Griffin *believes this all was totally an inside job - I've got to say I think that it was too.  I have since decided that....at least some elements in this US government had contributed in some way or other to causing 9/11 to happen or at least allowing it to happen.  The reason that the two towers in New York actually collapsed and fell all the way to the ground was controlled explosions rather than just being hit by two airplanes.  All of the characteristics of these demolitions show that they almost had to have been controlled explosions." Alex Jones' Prison Planet.com 


Member: Scientific Panel Investigating Nine-Eleven  Association Statement: "We have found solid scientific grounds on which to question the interpretation put upon the events of September 11, 2001 by the Office of the President of the United States of America and subsequently propagated by the major media of western nations." 


Audio interview 9/29/06: "We very seriously need an entirely new very high level and truly independent investigation of the events of 9/11.  I think you almost have to look at the 9/11 Commission Report as a joke and not a serious piece of analysis at all.  It gave the administration what it wanted to support their official story on what happened on the date of September 11 and that's all they cared about. ... It's a monstrous crime. Absolutely a monstrous crime." Electric Politics 


Bio: Amal Press 

*Capt. Daniel Davis, U.S. Army  Former U.S. Army Air Defense Officer and NORAD Tac Director.  Decorated with the Bronze Star and the Soldiers Medal for bravery under fire and the Purple Heart for injuries sustained in Viet Nam.*  Also served in the Army Air Defense Command as Nike Missile Battery Control Officer for the Chicago-Milwaukee Defense Area.  Founder and former CEO of Turbine Technology Services Corp., a turbine (jet engine) services and maintenance company (15 years).  Former Senior Manager at General Electric Turbine (jet) Engine Division (15 years).  Private pilot.

Statement to this website 3/23/07: "As a former General Electric Turbine engineering specialist and manager and then CEO of a turbine engineering company, I can guarantee that none of the high tech, high temperature alloy engines on any of the four planes that crashed on 9/11 would be completely destroyed, burned, shattered or melted in any crash or fire.  Wrecked, yes, but not destroyed.  Where are all of those engines, particularly at the Pentagon?  If jet powered aircraft crashed on 9/11, those engines, plus wings and tail assembly, would be there. 

Additionally, in my experience as an officer in NORAD as a Tactical Director for the Chicago-Milwaukee Air Defense and as a current private pilot, there is no way that an aircraft on instrument flight plans (all commercial flights are IFR) would not be intercepted when they deviate from their flight plan, turn off their transponders, or stop communication with Air Traffic Control.  No way!  With very bad luck, perhaps one could slip by, but no there's no way all four of them could! 

Finally, going over the hill and highway and crashing into the Pentagon right at the wall/ground interface is nearly impossible for even a small slow single engine airplane and no way for a 757. Maybe the best pilot in the world could accomplish that but not these unskilled "terrorists". 

Attempts to obscure facts by calling them a "Conspiracy Theory" does not change the truth.  It seems, "Something is rotten in the State." 


Editor's note: For more information on the impact at the Pentagon, see General Stubblebine, Colonel Nelson, Commander Muga, Lt. Col. Kwiatkowski, Lt. Col. Latas, Major Rokke, Capt. Wittenberg, Barbara Honegger, April Gallop, Colonel Bunel, and Steve DeChiaro. 


Statement in support of Architects and Engineers petition: 

"The government conspiracy theory does not hold up to scrutiny. As a professional with over 30 years experience working with gas turbines (jet engines) and fuels - kerosene (jet fuel) does not burn in any open flame hot enough to effect steel - well under 1000 deg F. Also bogus are the explanations regarding why no planes were intercepted. SOP [Standard Operating Procedure] is they are always, always intercepted if they stray off course and/or turn off the transponder like these flights all did. No command decision needed. Has our government ever been untruthful to us?"  AE911Truth 


*Signatory: Petition* requesting a reinvestigation of 9/11, signed by more than 500 Architects and Engineers: 

"On Behalf of the People of the United States of America, the undersigned Architects and Engineers for 9/11 Truth and affiliates  hereby petition for, and demand, a truly independent investigation with subpoena power in order to uncover the full truth surrounding the events of 9/11/01 - specifically the collapse of the World Trade Center Towers and Building 7.  We believe that there is sufficient doubt about the official story and therefore that the 9/11 investigation must be re-opened and must include a full inquiry into the possible use of explosives that may have been the actual cause behind the destruction of the World Trade Center Towers and WTC Building 7." Sign the Petition


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## Luissa (Jan 25, 2009)

DiveCon said:


> Luissa said:
> 
> 
> > DiveCon said:
> ...


I believe in some conspiracy theories but ones that have some logic to it!
And if they wired the building wouldn't at least a few fireman noticed something when they were looking for people and wouldn't they have found some sort of evidence when they were looking through the remains. If they did that would be the NYFD was also in on it! WoW, it must go deeper then we imagine!!!!!


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## eots (Jan 25, 2009)

there is a lot of testimony  from first responders avoided and ignored by the commission


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## DiveCon (Jan 25, 2009)

eots said:


> there is a lot of testimony  from first responders avoided and ignored by the commission


look, eots, i'll give you that the 9/11 commision was a farce, but not the way you think
all they did was tell us what we already knew
the facts are available, and have been presented to you many times, you still choose to believe the nonsense and lies of the troofer nutters


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## Big_D (Jan 25, 2009)

eots said:


> Big_D said:
> 
> 
> > eots said:
> ...



First of all you ignored all of my other points in the post you are quoting.  As I said, *30 million people *visited the WTC buildings on a yearly basis and *nobody* has come forth with evidence that the place was wired for a demolition.  Next, as I showed in one article that it took 24 days to plant and wire explosives on a building far smaller than the WTC buildings and the workers didn't have to hide them.  Therefore, the employees had to of been working for months if not years without not just one person showing evidence that they seen someone planing and wiring explosives.  Also, the demolition would have been hidden for this amount of time also without anyone coming forth with evidence that this was there.  Finally, I stated that an expert said that part of the demolition, such as the wires, would have been in the rubble. Yet, nothing was there.  You didn't mention *any *of this in your reply.


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## Big_D (Jan 25, 2009)

Next, in reply to your experts back the hoax theory, you had a number of people who agreed with Griffin yet *NONE* of them were structure engineers.  Some were well out of their area of expertise.  As I have shown there are many experts that agree with the official point of view:

Here is one paper on why the WTC building collapsed:
http://www.civil.northwestern.edu/people/bazant/PDFs/Papers/405.pdf
-Zden&#283;k P. Ba&#382;ant- Professor at Northwestern

his credentials: 
"Engineer Zden&#283;k P. Ba&#382;ant is best known as a *world leader in scaling research in solid mechanics* (1&#8211;6). His research focuses on the effect of structure size on structural strength as it relates to the failure behavior of the structure. He also has made outstanding advances in structural stability (7), fracture mechanics (8), the micromechanics of material damage (8&#8211;10), concrete creep (11&#8211;13), and probabilistic mechanics (6, 8, 14). *He was elected to the National Academy of Engineering in 1996 and to the National Academy of Sciences in 2002, 1 of only 153 members with such a dual appointment.* In his Inaugural Article (1), published in this issue of PNAS, Ba&#382;ant presents a simple justification of the scaling laws for the fracture of quasibrittle materials such as concrete, rock, fiber composites, and sea ice...In 1996, he received the *Prager Medal from the Society of Engineering Science (SES)* and the *Newmark Medal from the American Society of Civil Engineers.* In 1997, the *American Society of Mechanical Engineers awarded him the Warner Medal,* which recognizes outstanding contributions to the engineering literature. He has received *four honorary doctorates* and will be presented with a *fifth *this fall from l'Institut National des Sciences Appliquées in Lyon, France. Ba&#382;ant has authored or coauthored six books and more than 450 articles in refereed journals.* In 2001, he received the* *award of Highly Cited Researcher, which is given by the Institute for Scientific Information to only 250 authors worldwide across all engineering fields.* In addition, he served as president of SES and was founding president of the International Association of Fracture Mechanics and Concrete Structures."
http://www.pnas.org/content/101/37/13397.full.pdf
Inaugural Article: Biography of Zden&#x0011b;k P. Ba&#x0017e;ant
Civil and Environmental Engineering - Faculty Profile - Zdenek Bazant


"That impact was too much, and no building could possibly withstand such weight, so floor after floor came down in what we call progressive collapse"
Jets hit towers in most vulnerable spots / Killers appear to have known where to strike
-Hassan Astaneh
His Creditentials: 
"CEE professor Hassan Astaneh has been teaching at Berkeley since 1986. He has taught classes on the design of steel structures and advanced steel design engineering mechanics-static. He is an expert in the effects of disasters on steel structures and has testified before Congress on how the structural integrity of the World Trade Center reacted to the terrorist attack."
Engineering News, Date

"This paper uses a finite element model to investigate the stability of the Twin-Towers of the World Trade Center, New York for a number of different fire scenarios."
Edinburgh Research Archive : Item 1842/1216
by 
Dr. Asif Usmani
Dr. Y.C. Chung
Dr. Jose Torero
Each of their individual credit MORE than speak for themselves.  Just read these below and you will be convinced.
Fire Safety Engineering

Fire Safety Engineering

You might have to read the full article to understand the following quote:
""When that part is wiped out, the structure comes down," Irfanoglu said. "We design structures with some extra capacity to cover some uncertainties, but we never anticipate such heavy demand coming from an aircraft impact. If the columns were distributed, maybe, the fire could not take them out so easily."
Purdue study supports WTC collapse findings - USATODAY.com

Dr. Ayhan Irfanoglu- Engineering professor at *Purdue*
Amazing credentials: Ayhan Irfanoglu - Purdue University


"The exterior structure is comprised of columns. The vertical load bearing members and the horizontal elements called "beams." When the plane impacted the building, it severely damaged those exterior columns. The following fire further damaged the support columns. So it was a two step event; initial damage by plane and further damage or subsequent loss of structural stability that caused the building to fail. "
CNN.com - Tod Rittenhouse: Why the World Trade Center collapsed - September 13, 2001
-Todd Rittenhouse
His credentials:

"Tod Rittenhouse is an expert in blast engineering from the international consulting engineering firm Weidlinger Associates and has been the blast engineer for a number of embassies and government buildings."

CNN.com - Tod Rittenhouse: Why the World Trade Center collapsed - September 13, 2001



"The simulation merges a realistic-looking visualization of the airliner approaching the building with a technical, science-based animation of the plane crashing into the structure.

"This is going to be a tremendous asset," said Mete Sozen, Purdue&#8217;s Kettelhut Distinguished Professor of Structural Engineering. "Eventually, I hope this will be expanded into a model that we can use to help design structures to resist severe impact loads.

"Using this simulation I can do the so-called &#8217;what-if&#8217; study, testing hypothetical scenarios before actually building a structure."

The simulation can be recorded on a DVD and played on an ordinary personal computer.

The software tool is unusual because it uses principles of physics to simulate how a plane&#8217;s huge mass of fuel and cargo impacts a building. The plane&#8217;s structure caused relatively little damage, and the explosion and fire that resulted from the crash also are not likely to have been dominant factors in the disaster, Sozen said.

The model indicates the most critical effects were from the mass moving at high velocity.

"At that speed, the plane itself is like a sausage skin," Sozen said. "It doesn&#8217;t have much strength and virtually crumbles on impact." 

-Dr. Mete Sozen: Engineering professor at *Purdue *
https://engineering.purdue.edu/CE/People/view_person?resource_id=2260


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## eots (Jan 25, 2009)

you cant even concede the facts...


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## eots (Jan 25, 2009)

You Tube Expands 9/11 Truth Purge 

Paul Joseph Watson
Prison Planet.com
Friday, January 23, 2009



You Tube has permanently suspended another major 9/11 truth account in a continuation of the purge that began following efforts by the establishment to smear the 9/11 truth movement as terrorist propaganda.

You Tube has previously been caught blocking 9/11 truth videos from entering into top ranking charts for both views and comments despite their enduring popularity.

It also has a record of wanton censorship in deleting videos that are artistically crafted compilations and the furthest possible thing from copyright violation, such as the &#8220;Question Your Reality&#8221; video.

You Tube has now completely deleted the &#8220;OneDeadDJ&#8221; user account, which was used to display videos on Prison Planet.com, and in particular video clips relating to the BBC reporting the collapse of Building 7 over 20 minutes in advance.


Upon attempting to login to the account, one is met with the message, &#8220;Your account has been permanently disabled&#8221;. No explanation as to why is given.

One of the videos deleted by You Tube, which features in the article &#8220;BBC Reported Building 7 Collapse 20 Minutes Before It Fell,&#8221; had over 1 million views and nearly 45,000 comments before it was pulled this week.

Alex Jones' Infowars.com: Because there is a war on for your mind!


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## Big_D (Jan 25, 2009)

eots said:


> You Tube Expands 9/11 Truth Purge
> 
> Paul Joseph Watson
> Prison Planet.com
> ...



Here is the problem arguing with you.  When we are debating one issue and after it seems that you are defeated, you drop it and start talking about something else.  I made the point that it would have taken workers months if not years to plant and wire demolition throughout the WTC buildings.  Since, 30 million people would have gone through the WTC buildings on a yearly basis, most of which would be tourists with camera on hand, would have noticed this wiring and have evidence of it.  Therefore, by now someone would have shown evidence that there was demolition in the buildings.  After stating this you avoid the issue and bring up this article which had nothing to do with what I was talking about.


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## eots (Jan 25, 2009)

Big_D said:


> eots said:
> 
> 
> > You Tube Expands 9/11 Truth Purge
> ...



it is related to the issue and is current...and I have already addressed your assumptions
and the fact that evidence is with held first responder and eyewitness testimony disregarded at will by the commision...to the point that wtc 7 was  completely omitted. from the report.


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## DiveCon (Jan 25, 2009)

Big_D said:


> eots said:
> 
> 
> > You Tube Expands 9/11 Truth Purge
> ...


welcome to the world of 9/11 troofers


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## eots (Jan 25, 2009)

says the poster boy for denial...


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## Big_D (Jan 25, 2009)

eots said:


> you have not even come close to dereating anything...



Then why can't you refute the article instead of changing the subject?



eots said:


> it is related to the issue and is current...



The issue wasn't whether youtube was showing 9/11 hoax videos.


eots said:


> and I have already addressed your assumptions



All what you said is that there was testimony ignored by the 9/11 commission.  That doesn't explain why none of the 30 million people who visited the WTC yearly haven't come forth with evidence that the place was wired.  Do you really believe that none of those people nor the 55,000 that worked there never noticed anything?



eots said:


> and the fact that evidence is with held first responder and eyewitness testimony disregarded at will by the commision...to the point that wtc 7 was  completely omitted. from the report.



Even if that is true, then it doesnt explain why nobody found anything in the first two towers.


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## DiveCon (Jan 25, 2009)

eots said:


> I'm the poster boy for denial...


yeah, you do deny the truth


Fixed for truth


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## Godboy (Jan 25, 2009)

Blah blah blah. Yeah, you guys have all the facts dont you. The only way you can even begin to believe the 9/11 truthers version of this is by ignoring ALL the evidence that points to this being a terrorist act committed by Islamo-fascists, by crashing planes into buildings.

You know what, lets just dispense with the debate, in fact, if your proof of this being an inside job is so solid, why are we even debating it at all? If you got proof, PROVE IT THEN, or shut the fuck up for christ sake. You guys are retarded.


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## eots (Jan 25, 2009)

Godboy said:


> Blah blah blah. Yeah, you guys have all the facts dont you. The only way you can even begin to believe the 9/11 truthers version of this is by ignoring ALL the evidence that points to this being a terrorist act committed by Islamo-fascists, by crashing planes into buildings.
> 
> You know what, lets just dispense with the debate, in fact, if your proof of this being an inside job is so solid, why are we even debating it at all? If you got proof, PROVE IT THEN, or shut the fuck up for christ sake. You guys are retarded.



such as...


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## eots (Jan 25, 2009)

eots said:


> Godboy said:
> 
> 
> > Blah blah blah. Yeah, you guys have all the facts dont you. The only way you can even begin to believe the 9/11 truthers version of this is by ignoring ALL the evidence that points to this being a terrorist act committed by Islamo-fascists, by crashing planes into buildings.
> ...


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## Godboy (Jan 25, 2009)

> such as... your evidence is what...definitive proof can be found through a reasonable and open examination of the evidence something that still has not been done on any aspect of 911 p.s go fuck yourself



Your comments only highlight your lack of understanding about the investigation. To say there has been no definitive proof, simply isnt true to reality. 

I think this is where i check out. I just dont see a point to a serious debate with people who refuse to even acknowledge facts that have already been proven. Its like trying to argue with a person over whether or not the earth is round. People like this make logical discussions  nearly impossible, and frankly, i think its a waste of time to try. Let the fools believe whatever they want.


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## eots (Jan 25, 2009)

Godboy said:


> > such as... your evidence is what...definitive proof can be found through a reasonable and open examination of the evidence something that still has not been done on any aspect of 911 p.s go fuck yourself
> 
> 
> 
> ...




and the proven facts are what ?....goatboy                                                /


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## DiveCon (Jan 25, 2009)

eots said:


> Godboy said:
> 
> 
> > > such as... your evidence is what...definitive proof can be found through a reasonable and open examination of the evidence something that still has not been done on any aspect of 911 p.s go fuck yourself
> ...


how about the fact they found NO evidence of explosives at the WTC site


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## eots (Jan 26, 2009)

how about the fact they destroyed evidence shipped it off for scrap and ignored eyewitness testimony first responders


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## eots (Jan 26, 2009)

After spending 25 years dealing with explosive weaponry, General Partin independently studied the damage done to the Murrah building in the month before the evidence was destroyed, and made several strong statements to members of the US Congress. In July of 1995, General Partin wrote to Senator Trent Lott, stating, &#8220;The attached report contains conclusive proof that the bombing of the Aflred P. Murrah Federal Building&#8230;was not caused solely by the truck bomb. Evidence shows that the massive destruction was primarily the result of four demolition charges placed at critical structural points at the third floor level.&#8221; He added &#8220;No government law enforcement agency should be permitted to demolish, smash and bury evidence of a&#8230;terrorist attack without a thorough examination by an independent, technically competent agency.&#8221;[6]

When speaking about the unprecedented destruction of evidence, General Partin was referring to the demolition of the Murrah Building by Mark Loizeaux&#8217;s company, just five days after Partin made his strong statements directly to the US Congress. But Partin might as well have been talking about the WTC six years later, where much of the steel evidence was destroyed in the month before engineering investigators began inspecting the scene. It was noted by the House Committee on Science, as they reviewed early shortcomings of the WTC investigation, that, &#8220;Some of the critical pieces of steel&#8230;were gone before the first BPAT team member ever reached the site.&#8221;[7] At the time of this destruction of evidence, Gene Corley was in charge of the investigation and his OKC partner Charles Thornton&#8217;s company was in charge of the site at Ground Zero.


9/11: Looking for Truth in Credentials: The Peculiar WTC Experts


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## Mr. Jones (Jan 26, 2009)

eots said:


> After spending 25 years dealing with explosive weaponry, General Partin independently studied the damage done to the Murrah building in the month before the evidence was destroyed, and made several strong statements to members of the US Congress. In July of 1995, General Partin wrote to Senator Trent Lott, stating, The attached report contains conclusive proof that the bombing of the Aflred P. Murrah Federal Buildingwas not caused solely by the truck bomb. Evidence shows that the massive destruction was primarily the result of four demolition charges placed at critical structural points at the third floor level. He added No government law enforcement agency should be permitted to demolish, smash and bury evidence of aterrorist attack without a thorough examination by an independent, technically competent agency.[6]
> 
> When speaking about the unprecedented destruction of evidence, General Partin was referring to the demolition of the Murrah Building by Mark Loizeauxs company, just five days after Partin made his strong statements directly to the US Congress. But Partin might as well have been talking about the WTC six years later, where much of the steel evidence was destroyed in the month before engineering investigators began inspecting the scene. It was noted by the House Committee on Science, as they reviewed early shortcomings of the WTC investigation, that, Some of the critical pieces of steelwere gone before the first BPAT team member ever reached the site.[7] At the time of this destruction of evidence, Gene Corley was in charge of the investigation and his OKC partner Charles Thorntons company was in charge of the site at Ground Zero.
> 
> ...


 This is why there is so much suspicion about the attacks. There wasn't any evidence that could have been presented because they did their best to get rid of it. I read that the workers hauling the trucks with the wreckage had tracking devices on the vehicles so they would know where they were at all times. There is a lot we don't know because of omissions and cover ups, it should be obvious they don't want the truth of how it all went down made public.


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## Andrew2382 (Jan 26, 2009)

blah blah blah

same ol shit and it gets debunked over and over

you post the same people posting the same spew just so they can make a dollar off cooks like you

Everything has been debunked by people other then popular mechanics and 911 report

Everything from 

the free fall
thermite (my fav) so stupid people are on this one
no plane wreckage
steel doesn't melt
explosives
bursts of air

the list goes on and on

I think because your life is so meaningless and empty you need to find substance in the dumbest shit so you have something to talk about.

All these "theorist" do it to make money don't you get it...and you buy into it


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## Mr. Jones (Jan 26, 2009)

Andrew2382 said:


> blah blah blah
> 
> same ol shit and it gets debunked over and over
> 
> ...



That's one of the most asinine statement of  bullshit I've read. How TF, do you figure the "theorists" make money off of me? Name one. And what have they done to "debunk" the suspicion? Just gone against the laws of physics and science is all they did, while not having the balls to debate the other side.
I'm not an expert on it but any fool can see that shit just doesn't add up and if you can't see that your 
Whether if you believe the official account or not, the fact is a proper investigation was never conducted, and the people who care about their country have a right to know, as well as the families of the victims. Actually the whole world should know because it has effected  the damned planet!  Perhaps if YOUR life had meaning to it you might be more concerned about what's happening in the world instead of hiding your head in the sand and pretending it doesn't exist. Why do you criticize others because they don't see things the same as you? Have you ever considered that something just isn't right with the official version of events? That's where the main argument is.  And that's where an honest debate about this should start, yet they don't want to have a real investigative study done with experts on both sides presenting their arguments. That's the first hurdle to over come. But they don't want to do it  If the governments version of events is so right then they should not be afraid to to do this. Hell they got rid of all the evidence at the scenes, and have all the experts at their disposal they should be salivating at the chance bring it on and settle this shit . 
You have been lied to fool, don't YOU get it?


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## Andrew2382 (Jan 26, 2009)

lol, everything has been debunked and you guys go back to the same sources by the same idiots that say the same shit without taking real science into effect.

How do they make money?  maybe not off you personally...it was a general statement you nimrod.

All these guys sell books and make apperances all to make a dollar.  its not that difficult to understand really.

Everyone of your retarded theories has been explained throughly.

If you doubt me feel free to list one of your conspiracy theories i'll be happy to throw logic into your face


----------



## Mr. Jones (Jan 26, 2009)

Godboy said:


> Blah blah blah. Yeah, you guys have all the facts dont you.


 I sure don't and don't claim to either. Do you? And if you do, are you sure?


> The only way you can even begin to believe the 9/11 truthers version of this is by ignoring ALL the evidence that points to this being a terrorist act committed by Islamo-fascists, by crashing planes into buildings.


 I read OBL never claimed responsibility for the attack, in fact the FBI s wanted poster doesn't even accuse him of it. So which Islamo- Fascists are responsible?
Box cutters, give me a break!



> You know what, lets just dispense with the debate, in fact, if your proof of this being an inside job is so solid, why are we even debating it at all? If you got proof, PROVE IT THEN, or shut the fuck up for christ sake. You guys are retarded.


 There is enough
inconsistencies in the "official story' to question it. No one here said they have proof and know exactly what happened you moron. From what I can tell people are trying to tell you there is strong evidence of the government lying to your dumbass. Good God are you people that much in denial of that? I bet those that bash and ridicule are the ones who haven't read shit about the reasons why it doesn't make sense or that the events that happened are too coincidental to dismiss. There's a whole bunch of false statements from "No one could have imagined planes into buildings"  to "Iraq was connected to 9/11". Lots of unanswered questions asked of the 9/11 Commission never got answered. Commission member Max Cleland resigned, condemning the entire exercise as a "scam" and "whitewash."  You dumbshits don't suspect anything? 
After the destruction of the WTC structural steel, the official Twin Towers collapse investigation was left with almost no forensic evidence, and thus could only provide dubious computer models of ultimately unprovable theories. *It failed to even test for the possibility of explosives.* Why not clear this up?
I mean WTF does it take for you to admit to yourself that many things just aren't right with their version?  Maybe you people just find ridiculing and bashing people who give a fuck about their country
entertaining and get your rocks off doing it  This event changed the world and how we live here in our country and you are all ok with the inconsistencies and BS in the explanation of it? You are the retards.


----------



## Andrew2382 (Jan 26, 2009)

Box cutters have a much bigger threat when youa re under the impression there is a bomb on the plane


----------



## DiveCon (Jan 26, 2009)

eots said:


> how about the fact they destroyed evidence shipped it off for scrap and ignored eyewitness testimony first responders


how about that is a LIE and NOT a fact


----------



## DiveCon (Jan 26, 2009)

Mr. Jones said:


> That's one of the most asinine statement of bullshit I've read. How TF, do you figure the "theorists" make money off of me? Name one.


do you go to their websites?
THATS how they make money off you


----------



## DiveCon (Jan 26, 2009)

Andrew2382 said:


> Box cutters have a much bigger threat when youa re under the impression there is a bomb on the plane


also when the standard practice was to co-operate with the highjackers because no one had ever used highjacked planes as a weapon before


----------



## Mr. Jones (Jan 26, 2009)

Andrew2382 said:


> lol, everything has been debunked and you guys go back to the same sources by the same idiots that say the same shit without taking real science into effect.
> 
> How do they make money?  maybe not off you personally...it was a general statement you nimrod.
> 
> ...


 Doubt you? I doubt the official version, I doubt the government. Engaging in a discussion about 9-11 with people like you is pointless because you don't have the capacity to think beyond the propaganda and lies you have been told, and besides, doing so would infringe  on your comfort zone. It is too horrible for weak minded people to fathom that a rogue element of conspirators with the power and resources planned and executed this attack on US soil. There's a name for this-Cognitive Dissonance. Cognitive dissonance is a psychological phenomenon which refers to the discomfort felt at a discrepancy between what you already know or believe, and new information or interpretation.
It's time you face the facts-Your government has lied to you. 
And no, not everything has been debunked, only in your pretend world it has.
OT-Do you believe the Federal Reserve is really part of the Government too?


----------



## Big_D (Jan 26, 2009)

eots said:


> how about the fact they destroyed evidence shipped it off for scrap and ignored eyewitness testimony first responders



Here is a photo of the rubble:
http://www.andrew.cmu.edu/user/jgeist/USAR/WTC_rubble.jpg

Show me where the explosives are.


----------



## Toro (Jan 26, 2009)

DiveCon said:


> Mr. Jones said:
> 
> 
> > That's one of the most asinine statement of bullshit I've read. How TF, do you figure the "theorists" make money off of me? Name one.
> ...



Also, guys make money writing books.  Guys make money on the radio.  Guys make money on speaking engagements, etc.


----------



## Toro (Jan 26, 2009)

Mr. Jones said:


> I read OBL never claimed responsibility for the attack, in fact the FBI s wanted poster doesn't even accuse him of it. So which Islamo- Fascists are responsible?
> Box cutters, give me a break!



Bin Laden claims responsibility for 9/11.

Bin Laden claims responsibility for 9/11

Al-Qaeda gets pissed off that Iran says Israel, not al-Qaeda, is behind 9/11.

BBC NEWS | Middle East | Al-Qaeda accuses Iran of 9/11 lie


----------



## eots (Jan 26, 2009)

dont even bother with the fake all-cia duh..propaganda clips..bin laden was dead before those tapes where even made..bin laden is not carged with the crime of 911 by the fbi due tio lack of evidence...*thats just a fact*


----------



## eots (Jan 26, 2009)

[ame=http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=luEyygPr3vk]YouTube - AL QAEDA DOES NOT EXIST !! 911 TRUTH !! CREATED BY ILLUMINATI CIA !!!![/ame]


----------



## Mr. Jones (Jan 26, 2009)

Toro said:


> Mr. Jones said:
> 
> 
> > I read OBL never claimed responsibility for the attack, in fact the FBI s wanted poster doesn't even accuse him of it. So which Islamo- Fascists are responsible?
> ...



Oh yeah the timely message right before the election on 2004.
You actually believe that bogus video? Why did it take him so long to 
"claim responsibility"? How many bogus videos of a man who btw many say is dead and has been, does it take before you notice it isn't him.
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SZq_4PIbnhI]YouTube - Coming Soon: New Fake Bin Laden Video--Just In Time For 9/11[/ame]
 You people are so easily fooled, and you don't question it for a second that the videos like a lot of 9-11 is all BS. The man must have dyed his beard and now has to read from a scripted paper,
The image of bin Laden reading a statement was dramatically different from the few other videos of the al-Qaida leader that have emerged since the Sept. 11 attacks. In the last video, conveniently coming on  Sept. 10, 2003, bin Laden is  walking through rocky terrain with his top deputy Ayman al-Zawahri, both carrying automatic rifles. In a taped message issued at the same time, bin Laden praises the "great damage to the enemy" on Sept. 11 and mentions five hijackers by name.
 Then in December 2001, the Pentagon released a videotape in which bin Laden is shown at a dinner with associates in Afghanistan on Nov. 9, 2001, saying the destruction of the Sept. 11 attacks exceeded even his "optimistic" calculations.
But in none of his previous messages, audio or video, did bin Laden directly state that he ordered the attacks. Why wouldn't he? Answer that, if he did it why didn't say he did right away, instead of waiting right before the elections to scare the shit out of idiots into voting for Bush? OBL is said to be d.e.a.d 
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UnychOXj9Tg]YouTube - Benazir Bhutto: Bin Laden was Murdered[/ame]
Cmon man you guys are that stupid that you can't compare the videos and how different he looks? There has been no confirmed trace of bin Laden since he narrowly escaped from the CIA and the U.S. military after the battle near Tora Bora, Afghanistan, in December 2001. That was where our troops on the ground had him and then got orders to sub contract the rest of the mission to the Afghans northern alliance. Way to go. If he would have been caught or killed that would hinder the "war on terrorism" wouldn't it?
Any way you slice it we were all lied to, from lawmakers in congress
down to the heard of compliant brain dead public citizens. It's funny officials blamed disruptions posed by the war in Iraq for not being able to find him. Officials with the CIA and the military said they began shifting resources out of Afghanistan in early 2002 and still haven't recovered from that mistake. Look just compare the videos
for yourself and look at the differences.
9-11 anniversary 2007- 
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rUiNiB2yVCQ&feature=related]YouTube - Osama Bin Laden - 911 Anniversary 2007[/ame]
Her's an earlier on -a real one
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xnBbohnjVOg&feature=related]YouTube - osama bin laden[/ame]
FBI Most Wanted -
FBI Ten Most Wanted Fugitive - Usama Bin Laden

Cmon man the lies and fake tapes and all the questions that are ignored and unanswered and the astronomical coincidenses, doesn't that kind of tug at your consciousness and reason? Are you that stubborn that you would make yourself look so foolish when you fall for this rubbish, and still have the gall to talk smack to people simply because we aren't afraid to question authority? Pussies.
The video and statement in it are LIES look at things for what they are and not what you want them to be, damned cowards.


----------



## eots (Jan 26, 2009)

Toro said:


> DiveCon said:
> 
> 
> > Mr. Jones said:
> ...



the vast majority of people listed at patriots question 911 are not making a dime on there stand or statements on 011 and have nothing at all to gain..it is the perpetrators of the 911 myth that have made billions off of 911 not the truth movement...


----------



## Big_D (Jan 26, 2009)

Mr. Jones said:


> eots said:
> 
> 
> > After spending 25 years dealing with explosive weaponry, General Partin independently studied the damage done to the Murrah building in the month before the evidence was destroyed, and made several strong statements to members of the US Congress. In July of 1995, General Partin wrote to Senator Trent Lott, stating, The attached report contains conclusive proof that the bombing of the Aflred P. Murrah Federal Buildingwas not caused solely by the truck bomb. Evidence shows that the massive destruction was primarily the result of four demolition charges placed at critical structural points at the third floor level. He added No government law enforcement agency should be permitted to demolish, smash and bury evidence of aterrorist attack without a thorough examination by an independent, technically competent agency.[6]
> ...



So the workers were in on it too?  Yet, none of these people spoke up to inform us of the truth.  Don't you think that _any_ of these individuals are good people?

How come with all the photos taken there was no evidence of explosives?  As the one expert said, "Mr Loizeaux also told the BBC that you would need to place hundreds of explosive charges along with miles of initiating cable and miles more detonating cord. And you would find evidence left behind of all these explosive charges, blasting caps and tubes."
BBC NEWS | Programmes | Conspiracy Files | Q&A: The collapse of Tower 7
Yet, nothing was found.  

Again, show me the explosives here:
http://www.andrew.cmu.edu/user/jgeist/USAR/WTC_rubble.jpg


----------



## Toro (Jan 26, 2009)

Mr. Jones said:


> Oh yeah the timely message right before the election on 2004.



No, he also said it on al-Jazeera in 2002.

rediff.com: Osama bin Laden claims 9/11: Al-Jazeera



> You actually believe that bogus video? Why did it take him so long to
> "claim responsibility"? How many bogus videos of a man who btw many say is dead and has been, does it take before you notice it isn't him.



Of course the conspiracists would say this.  They *have* to say its a fake.  Otherwise their whole argument comes crashing down on their heads.  They have to deny it and claim it is a fake.  They have no choice.  Otherwise, they look foolish.  Too many people have a vested interest in keeping this nonsense going.  



> You people are so easily fooled, and you don't question it for a second that the videos like a lot of 9-11 is all BS. The man must have dyed his beard and now has to read from a scripted paper,
> The image of bin Laden reading a statement was dramatically different from the few other videos of the al-Qaida leader that have emerged since the Sept. 11 attacks. In the last video, conveniently coming on  Sept. 10, 2003, bin Laden is  walking through rocky terrain with his top deputy Ayman al-Zawahri, both carrying automatic rifles. In a taped message issued at the same time, bin Laden praises the "great damage to the enemy" on Sept. 11 and mentions five hijackers by name.
> Then in December 2001, the Pentagon released a videotape in which bin Laden is shown at a dinner with associates in Afghanistan on Nov. 9, 2001, saying the destruction of the Sept. 11 attacks exceeded even his "optimistic" calculations.
> But in none of his previous messages, audio or video, did bin Laden directly state that he ordered the attacks. Why wouldn't he? Answer that, if he did it why didn't say he did right away, instead of waiting right before the elections to scare the shit out of idiots into voting for Bush?



First, why wouldn't al-Qaeda want Bush as President?  He's a great recruiting tool for them.  America's involvement in Iraq was deeply unpopular in the Middle East and was a great breeding ground for terrorists.

Second, the fact that in other videos he didn't come out and say "I did it" is not surprising.  Why would he?  He assumed we all knew it.  However, once people start questioning whether al-Qaeda really did do it - thus lowering al-Qaeda's and OBL's status and credibility in the Middle East - he has to remind people.  I can only imagine his bemusement of so many people blaming his handiwork on Bush.  



> OBL is said to be d.e.a.d
> YouTube - Benazir Bhutto: Bin Laden was Murdered



Omar Sheikh has been in jail since February 2002. 

Ahmed Omar Saeed Sheikh - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

So, if what you claim to be true is so, Sheikh would have killed OBL a few months after 9/11.  Otherwise, he killed him from jail.  Of course, there is no motive why Omar Sheikh - a kindered spirit of OBL - would kill bin Laden.  

Since there is zero evidence of this, we can safely say that Omar Sheikh did not kill OBL.

As for the video, I figured this out the moment I first saw the tape when some other twoofer post it elsewhere.  Bhutto is referring to Daniel Pearl, not OBL.  Listen to what she said right before she misspeaks.  In her description of enemies that might kill her, she refers to the terrorist decapitations of three British and three American tourists in India then follows up with the murderer of Daniel Pearl.  Omar Sheikh is the murderer of Pearl, not of OBL.

Bhutto says in an interview *in 2007* that she is co-operating with the American military targeting OBL.



> Bhutto would take US aid against bin Laden
> Says she would cooperate in targeting leader
> 
> By Associated Press  |  October 2, 2007
> ...



Pakistan opposition leader Benazir Bhutto would accept US aid in targeting Osama bin Laden - The Boston Globe

So, in other words, the Pakistani military would have been involved in an elaborate ruse *five years after the alleged death of OBL*.  Of course, the conspiracists will say that she was lying, trying to deceive the world.  However, they will believe with 100% certainty that her slip of the tongue is the unquestioned truth.



> Cmon man you guys are that stupid that you can't compare the videos and how different he looks? There has been no confirmed trace of bin Laden since he narrowly escaped from the CIA and the U.S. military after the battle near Tora Bora, Afghanistan, in December 2001.



And then, within the next two months, was killed by Omar Sheikh.  Right?  



> That was where our troops on the ground had him and then got orders to sub contract the rest of the mission to the Afghans northern alliance. Way to go. If he would have been caught or killed that would hinder the "war on terrorism" wouldn't it?



Possibly.  Perhaps the Bush administration thought a martyred OBL would be more dangerous than one living in a cave.  Perhaps the Bush administration didn't want to send thousands of American troops to their deaths in the Khyber Pass.  Or perhaps the Bush administration is incompetent.  But that in no way proves anything regarding 9/11.



> Cmon man the lies and fake tapes and all the questions that are ignored and unanswered and the astronomical coincidenses, doesn't that kind of tug at your consciousness and reason? Are you that stubborn that you would make yourself look so foolish when you fall for this rubbish, and still have the gall to talk smack to people simply because we aren't afraid to question authority? Pussies.
> The video and statement in it are LIES look at things for what they are and not what you want them to be, damned cowards.



No, I think the government has much more important things to do rather than burn through tens of millions of dollars trying to answer bizarre questions from people who will *never* be convinced otherwise.


----------



## Toro (Jan 26, 2009)

eots said:


> the vast majority of people listed at patriots question 911 are not making a dime on there stand or statements on 011 and have nothing at all to gain..it is the perpetrators of the 911 myth that have made billions off of 911 not the truth movement...



And I have spent hundreds of hours trying to refute the conspiracists claims and have never made a dime.  I'm not questioning the vast majority of people who believe in the 9/11 conspiracy theories.  I have no doubt you honestly believe it to be the case.  

But how much money do you think Alex Jones has made off 9/11?  The Loose Change guys were unemployed before they released their video.  Thierry Meyssan wrote a book that topped the charts in France.  Lots of people have made money questioning 9/11.  There are lots of people making money off 9/11 conspiracies. Why are their motives assumed to be pure?


----------



## eots (Jan 26, 2009)

> DiveCon said:
> 
> 
> > Luissa27 said:
> ...



Global Research


----------



## DiveCon (Jan 26, 2009)

eots said:


> > DiveCon said:
> >
> >
> > > *you belive...how about we have a real inquiry and know...*
> ...


actually, that has already been debunked

ryan was NOT in the position he claimed to be at UL


----------



## DiveCon (Jan 26, 2009)

but oh yeah, we know, UL is another part of the conspiracy


----------



## eots (Jan 26, 2009)

> DiveCon said:
> 
> 
> > Luissa27 said:
> ...


----------



## Big_D (Jan 26, 2009)

eots said:


> dont even bother with the fake all-cia duh..propaganda clips..bin laden was dead before those tapes where even made..bin laden is not carged with the crime of 911 by the fbi due tio lack of evidence...*thats just a fact*



Sure it is unproven. I cannot prove that he is behind it as you cannot prove that he is not. And again, if Bin Laden didn't have a hand in it, it still doesnt mean that Al Qaida wasn't behind it. To me the following is compelling evidence that Bin laden is behind it, but it is not proof:
"December 13 2001
The Pentagon releases a video it claims shows Bin Laden discussing the September 11 attacks with guests at an al-Qaida dinner at a house in Kandahar. In one section, he gently smiles and explains how "we calculated in advance the number of casualties from the enemy based on the position of the tower," but the attack surpassed his expectations. "I was thinking that the fire from the fuel in the plane would melt the iron structure of the building and collapse the area where the plane hit and the floors above it only. That is all we had hoped for."
Apparently found in late November in an abandoned house in Jalalabad, the video is hailed as conclusive proof that Bin Laden was behind the attacks.

December 26 2001
Looking gaunt, tired and as if he has aged a decade in the past two months, Bin Laden appears to take credit for the September 11 attacks. "Our terrorism against the United States is worthy of praise to deter the oppressor so that America stop its support for Israel, which is killing our children," he says.He is shot against a brown blanket, masking any clues that may disclose his location. The video was filmed to mark three months since the "blessed attack" on the US, he says, meaning that he has survived the US assault on his bases up to mid December at least.

April 15 2002
Al-Jazeera shows excerpts from a forthcoming documentary made by a pro-al-Qaida production company featuring previously unseen footage of Bin Laden and al-Zawahiri sat by a stream.
The package also includes what appears to be a video message from Ahmed al-Haznawi, one of the Flight 93 hijackers in a segment called The Wills of the New York and Washington Battle Martyrs. The 22-year-old Saudi pledges to give his life to "martyrdom" and swears to send a "bloodied message" to Americans by attacking them in their "heartland". "

The Guardian's Timeline of the tapes

He also confesses it in the following:
BBC NEWS | Middle East | Bin Laden video threatens America
Bin Laden says he ordered 9/11 attacks
Osama claims responsibility for 9/11-Rest of World-World-The Times of India

As Toro pointed out, Al-Qaeda, not just Bin Laden, has confessed to the attacks.  *That is a fact.*  Therefore, even if all these videos are fakes then there is still responsibility taken for it.


----------



## eots (Jan 26, 2009)

[ame=http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=WA_xXWSXyFI]YouTube - Immortal Technique- Bin Laden[/ame]


----------



## Big_D (Jan 26, 2009)

Robert Behinig, an associate manager of Underwriters Laboratories, had _no_ problem with the official story of 9/11:http://www.ul.com/regulators/WTC.pdf
Here is another link: July-August 2002: Protecting the Foundation of Fire-safety

So, did anyone find any explosives in this photo? http://www.andrew.cmu.edu/user/jgeist/USAR/WTC_rubble.jpg
As the demolition expert said, there would have been miles of equipment at the site, yet nobody can point where it is at.


----------



## eots (Jan 26, 2009)

[ame=http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=qP9n2Edieww]YouTube - (5/5) Kevin Ryan on the Alex Jones Show, December 29, 2008[/ame]


Fires did not bring the World Trade Centers

[ame=http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=CwaMVUdxxwg]YouTube - Fires did not bring down the World Trade Centers[/ame]


----------



## Big_D (Jan 26, 2009)

For the third time in this thread you were asked to find explosives in that photo and you ignored it all three times.  Again, as the demolition expert said, you would have had plenty of it at the scenes.  You cannot combat this so you simply jump to something else.


----------



## Big_D (Jan 26, 2009)

It is also interesting how you take the word of a youtube video over acutal engineering experts who have no problem with the official story of 9/11:

Dr. Ayhan Irfanoglu- Engineering professor at Purdue 
https://www.washingtontimes.com/themes/people/ayhan-irfanoglu


Masayuki Nakao Engineering professor at the University of Tokyo. 
JST Failure Knowledge Database > Case Details > The World Trade Center Collapse


Eduardo Kausel: MIT Engineering professor
The Towers Lost and Beyond

These are engineering professors at the top engineering schools in the world according to this site: http://latestuniversityranking.blogspot.com/2008/11/world-university-rankings-engineering.html

Yet, you take the word of a youtube video.


----------



## eots (Jan 26, 2009)

evidence is suppressed first responder and eye wittiness testimony ignored  the methods used for the demolition techniques  are not determined and perhaps unconventional ..ewe dint know because there is a cover up ....how about you tell me how Kevin Ryan of underwriters is wrong


----------



## DiveCon (Jan 26, 2009)

yeah, a gas fire could never melt steel

Tanker fire destroys part of MacArthur Maze / 2 freeways closed near Bay Bridge


----------



## DiveCon (Jan 26, 2009)

eots said:


> evidence is suppressed first responder and eye wittiness testimony ignored  the methods used for the demolition techniques  are not determined and perhaps unconventional ..ewe dint know because there is a cover up ....how about you tell me how Kevin Ryan of underwriters is wrong


how about you prove ryan has any credibility at all
since UL says he doesnt


----------



## eots (Jan 26, 2009)

Big_D said:


> It is also interesting how you take the word of a youtube video over acutal engineering experts who have no problem with the official story of 9/11:
> 
> Dr. Ayhan Irfanoglu- Engineering professor at Purdue
> https://www.washingtontimes.com/themes/people/ayhan-irfanoglu
> ...


----------



## DiveCon (Jan 26, 2009)

eots said:


> Big_D said:
> 
> 
> > It is also interesting how you take the word of a youtube video over acutal engineering experts who have no problem with the official story of 9/11:
> ...


----------



## Big_D (Jan 26, 2009)

eots said:


> evidence is suppressed first responder and eye wittiness testimony ignored  the methods used for the demolition techniques  are not determined and perhaps unconventional ..ewe dint know because there is a cover up



As the expert said, the evidence would have been there.  The camera videotaping the debris would have shown this.  Photographs and videos were taken before anyone was there cleaning it up and therefore we would have evidence of this.  Sorting through all this debris and finding all the explosives, wires, and everything else involved before any video was taken would be impossible.  They would have actually needed to hunt and find everything that would have used and some of it would of course be hidden under the debris.  There is no way around it.  



eots said:


> ....how about you tell me how Kevin Ryan of underwriters is wrong





eots said:


> that is simply the formate it is Kevin Ryan of underwriters the man that that certified the steel used for the towers...it is the laws of physics



I will admit that I cannot do that because I am no expert.  However, as I have shown if he is right then someone else at underwriters is wrong.  It is one person's word against another.  This also means that if Ryan is right then the two papers that passed the engineering division of the Society for Industrial and Applied Mathematics:
http://www.structuremag.org/Archives/2007-11/SF-WTC7-Gilsanz-Nov07.pdf
http://www.civil.northwestern.edu/people/bazant/PDFs/Papers/405.pdf

As I have said to you in the past, that means that _all_ these engineering experts read and passed those two articles:
ASCE-EMD - ADMINISTRATIVE COMMITTEES
ASCE-EMD - EXCOM
ASCE-EMD - ADMINISTRATIVE COMMITTEES

If Ryan is right then all these engineering experts are wrong.  I think they would know more about the law of physics.


----------



## eots (Jan 27, 2009)

Big_D said:


> eots said:
> 
> 
> > evidence is suppressed first responder and eye wittiness testimony ignored  the methods used for the demolition techniques  are not determined and perhaps unconventional ..ewe dint know because there is a cover up
> ...



his job was to certify and test steel for high rise construction...the facts are the facts


----------



## eots (Jan 27, 2009)

eots said:


> Big_D said:
> 
> 
> > eots said:
> ...


----------



## RetiredGySgt (Jan 27, 2009)

Quoting yourself does not make it any less ignorant then the first time you posted it.


----------



## eots (Jan 27, 2009)

you are a expert on ignorence..all those years of practice have made you proficient at it


----------



## Mr. Jones (Jan 27, 2009)

Big_D said:


> For the third time in this thread you were asked to find explosives in that photo and you ignored it all three times.  Again, as the demolition expert said, you would have had plenty of it at the scenes.  You cannot combat this so you simply jump to something else.


 Did someone here claim to be able to identify thermite, or wires/cables in that pile of wreckage?  From a photo? 
Perhaps if proper procedure was followed and a proper investigation done, something would have been found but we'll never know now.
But what if this process was used that would have probably eliminated the need for conventional cables and CD equipment?
*It turns out that explosive, sol-gel nano-thermites were developed by US government
scientists, at Lawrence Livermore National Laboratories (LLNL) (Tillitson et al 1998,
Gash et al 2000, Gash et al 2002). These LLNL scientists reported that --*
*The sol-gel process is very amenable to dip-, spin-, and spray-coating
technologies to coat surfaces. We have utilized this property to dip-coat various
substrates to make sol-gel Fe,O,/ Al / Viton coatings. The energetic coating dries
to give a nice adherent film. Preliminary experiments indicate that films of the
hybrid material are self-propagating when ignited by thermal stimulus
(Gash et al 2002).*
*"But despite a number of variations in NISTs story, it never
considered explosives or pyrotechnic materials in any of its hypotheses."*
Wow, nano-thermites, and nano-thermite coatings, this is interesting, I never heard of this before.
http://journalof911studies.com/volume/2008/Ryan_NIST_and_Nano-1.pdf 
One thing that can't be disputed is the thermal imaging of the rubble that showed intense heat for months after the collapse. I haven't seen an explanation for that. Some experts dismiss the intense fire theory
for the collapses because of the low burn temp of jet fuel, and say the only thing that could sustain such high temperatures in the rubble for so long is thermite/thermate, which if true would point to 
a CD of the buildings, perhaps using the above mentioned technology, instead of conventional methods of wiring a building?


----------



## Big_D (Jan 27, 2009)

First, I see that decided not insult my statement about the workers actually having to find the explosives, instead of actually refuting it.  You made the statement that the first workers at the WTC buildings actually removed all evidence of the demolition.  I responded by stating that in order to do that they would actually have to move the debris out of the way and find _every_ piece demolition that fell before any video was taken.  As the demolition expert said there would have been plenty of this and the first video/photographs of the debris would have shown it, but nothing of the such has surfaced.  Of course you couldn't refute it so you just insulted it instead.  



eots said:


> the facrs of steel and tempature our not opinions..they are hard facts



What hard facts are you referring to?  Per all those experts they believe that the fact was the towers collapsed because of the planes not because of explosives.  I had probably 80+ of the top engineers in the world and they all disagree with you.  



eots said:


> his job was to certify and test steel for high rise construction...the facts are the facts



Robert Behinig, associate manager of Underwriters Laboratories Fire Protection Division who certified the WTCs steel, disagrees with him.


----------



## Big_D (Jan 27, 2009)

Mr. Jones said:


> For the third time in this thread you were asked to find explosives in that photo and you ignored it all three times.  Again, as the demolition expert said, you would have had plenty of it at the scenes.  You cannot combat this so you simply jump to something else.


 Did someone here claim to be able to identify thermite, or wires/cables in that pile of wreckage?  From a photo? [/QUOTE]

No, but it would have been conspicuous from the first photos at the scene.  Because there is not footage of this, that mean no demolition was there.



Mr. Jones said:


> Perhaps if proper procedure was followed and a proper investigation done, something would have been found but we'll never know now.  But what if this process was used that would have probably eliminated the need for conventional cables and CD equipment?



How do you explain what happened to all the demolition equipment that would have been used?  Workers couldn't have gone onto the debris and removed it without being videotaped.  Camera were recording at the time of the fall.  



Mr. Jones said:


> *It turns out that explosive, sol-gel nano-thermites were developed by US government
> scientists, at Lawrence Livermore National Laboratories (LLNL) (Tillitson et al 1998,
> Gash et al 2000, Gash et al 2002). These LLNL scientists reported that --*
> *The sol-gel process is very amenable to dip-, spin-, and spray-coating
> ...



Yet, nobody found any evidence of this at the WTC buidlings.   Mark Loizeaux, the demolition expert, actually said that walls would have had to be torn down and the place would obviously need to be filled with wiring.  Of the 30 million people who visited the WTC yearly or the 55,000 workers nobody has evidence of any demolition or wiring inside the building.  Surely, _someone_ would have found _something._  As I said, Robert Behinig, associate manager of Underwriters Laboratories Fire Protection Division who certified the WTCs steel, disagrees with him: http://www.ul.com/regulators/WTC.pdf  As I have also shown, so does all those engineering experts who approved those two papers from post number 423.



Mr. Jones said:


> One thing that can't be disputed is the thermal imaging of the rubble that showed intense heat for months after the collapse. I haven't seen an explanation for that. Some experts dismiss the intense fire theory
> for the collapses because of the low burn temp of jet fuel, and say the only thing that could sustain such high temperatures in the rubble for so long is thermite/thermate, which if true would point to
> a CD of the buildings, perhaps using the above mentioned technology, instead of conventional methods of wiring a building?



Thermal energy is created by increased temperatures, it doesn't mean that demolition was used.  As per the article below they explain why it occurred.

"the thermal energy generated by the collapse of the two structures..."
NPS-GIS World Trade Center GIS


----------



## eots (Jan 27, 2009)

Robert Behinig, associate manager of Underwriters Laboratories Fire Protection Division who certified the WTCs steel, disagrees with him.[/QUOTE]

I wonder if Kevin Ryan being fired after disputing the nist  had anything to do with that


----------



## eots (Jan 27, 2009)

9/11 whistleblower fired 2004-11-17 23:30

 by Flemming Funch

Until two days ago Kevin Ryan was head of the Environmental Health Laboratory Div. of Underwriter's Laboratory. That is the lab that originally had certified the steel that the World Trade Center was built with. He had recently written a memo to Frank Gayle of the National Institute of Standards and Technology questioning that the steel had failed in the WTC 1 and WTC 2 collapses due to the burning jet fuel. I'll include his memo below. He simply points out that the information doesn't match what his lab knew about the steel, and that the official reports are based on ideas that have nothing to do with the known laws of physics. I.e. the possible temperatures of burning fuel and the temperatures at which steel might possibly be softened. That has been mentioned before, of course, but experts in the right positions have stayed strangely quiet. So I guess this guy needed to be shut up too. Doesn't sound like he'll be very quiet, though. 

Various comments and info here and an article here



[ame]http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=QGuwulT7spQ&feature=PlayList&p=FA8D7A017C97B1CC&index=17[/ame]
From: Kevin R Ryan/SBN/ULI 
To: frank.gayle@nist.gov


----------



## DiveCon (Jan 27, 2009)

eots said:


> I wonder if Kevin Ryan being fired after disputing the nist had anything to do with that


did you see the results of his law suit?





comedy gold


----------



## Big_D (Jan 27, 2009)

eots said:


> Robert Behinig, associate manager of Underwriters Laboratories Fire Protection Division who certified the WTC&#8217;s steel, disagrees with him.



Kevin Ryan had nothing to do with it.  When I searched the web to see if Ryan had been fired at all, I wasn't able to locate any credible site with this info.  But according to the conspiracy websites, Ryan was fired in 2004.  Robert Behinig's article (http://www.ul.com/regulators/WTC.pdf) came out in 2002.  Kevin Ryan termination, if it even is true, had nothing to do with it as it would have happened _after _Behinig's article was printed.


----------



## eots (Jan 27, 2009)

you people are idiotic your denial if the information isot disseminated through the controlled media ..it does not exist to you ...thats how easy you make it...any alternative source that does have the information is defined as a troofer site...kevin Ryan is not some elusive shadowy figure..his credibility and story are well known to those that have followed the 911 sinvestigation..just deal with the facts...agree or disagree but stop the lame ass denial..that these people exist or facts like he was fired for his stand


----------



## DiveCon (Jan 27, 2009)

eots said:


> you people are idiotic your denial if the information isot disseminated through the controlled media ..it does not exist to you ...thats how easy you make it...any alternative source that does have the information is defined as a troofer site...kevin Ryan is not some elusive shadowy figure..his credibility and story are well known to those that have followed the 911 sinvestigation..just deal with the facts...agree or disagree but stop the lame ass denial..that these people exist or facts like he was fired for his stand


no, its you thats idiotic, you would believe anything on the internet
if its not from a legit source, it is questionable
Kevin Ryan was FIRED because he was a moron


----------



## Godboy (Jan 27, 2009)

> eots
> Registered User
> Member #3851
> 
> He simply points out that the information doesn't match what his lab knew about the steel, and that the official reports are based on ideas that have nothing to do with the known laws of physics. I.e. the possible temperatures of burning fuel and the temperatures at which steel might possibly be softened.



If this were true, pretty much every scientist on earth would agree with him, but they dont, because theres absolutely NO truth to that statement at all. Thats the beauty of science, its irrefutable, unless your a nut job.


----------



## eots (Jan 27, 2009)

Godboy said:


> > eots
> > Registered User
> > Member #3851
> >
> ...



here comes goatboy talking out his ass...again


----------



## eots (Jan 27, 2009)

Pilot who flew 2 planes used on 9/11 doesn't believe official story 



RUSS WITTENBERG: (Stated On September 16, 2007)
"I flew the two actual aircraft which were involved in 9/11... Fight number 175 and Flight 93, the 757 that allegedly went down in Shanksville and Flight 175 is the aircraft that's alleged to have hit the South Tower. I don't believe it's possible for... a so-called terrorist to train on a 172, then jump in a cockpit of a 757-767 class cockpit, and vertical navigate the aircraft, lateral navigate the aircraft, and fly the airplane at speeds exceeding it's design limit speed by well over 100 knots, make high-speed high-banked turns,.. pulling probably 5, 6, 7 G's... I couldn't do it and I'm absolutely positive they couldn't do it."




 DATELINE 9/28/2007 Respected Architect Richard Gage:

[people are dubbing this new evidence 'Pandora's Box' saying this is going to blow the lid off the official story] Blueprint for Truth: The Architecture of Destruction, featuring San Francisco architect, Richard Gage, AIA, founding member of Architects and Engineers for 9/11 Truth [ae911Truth.org] at the Media Education Foundation community room, located at the back of the building where Woodstar Cafe is located, 60 Masonic Street, Northampton, MA, beginning at 
7:00 pm on October 4, 2007.
Richard Gage - Web Site http:/ae911truth.org 


Info Item

DATELINE 9/24/2007


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## Godboy (Jan 27, 2009)

> I don't believe it's possible for... a so-called terrorist to train on a 172, then jump in a cockpit of a 757-767 class cockpit, and vertical navigate the aircraft, lateral navigate the aircraft, and fly the airplane at speeds exceeding it's design limit speed by well over 100 knots, make high-speed high-banked turns,.. pulling probably 5, 6, 7 G's... I couldn't do it and I'm absolutely positive they couldn't do it."



Yet it still happened. How do you explain the planes we all saw crash into the twin towers, if its impossible for them to crash, as your quote claims?


----------



## eots (Jan 27, 2009)

you say footage of a plane hitting the pentagon ?  well you must be the first


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## DiveCon (Jan 27, 2009)

eots said:


> you say footage of a plane hitting the pentagon ?  well you must be the first


no, he said footage of the planes hitting the WTC


----------



## Big_D (Jan 27, 2009)

eots said:


> you people are idiotic your denial if the information isot disseminated through the controlled media ..it does not exist to you ...thats how easy you make it...any alternative source that does have the information is defined as a troofer site...kevin Ryan is not some elusive shadowy figure..his credibility and story are well known to those that have followed the 911 sinvestigation..j



I do not know nor care if he got fired.  I was just making the point that there only place I was able to find info stating that he got fired was on the conspirator's website.


----------



## DiveCon (Jan 27, 2009)

Big_D said:


> eots said:
> 
> 
> > you people are idiotic your denial if the information isot disseminated through the controlled media ..it does not exist to you ...thats how easy you make it...any alternative source that does have the information is defined as a troofer site...kevin Ryan is not some elusive shadowy figure..his credibility and story are well known to those that have followed the 911 sinvestigation..j
> ...


he did get fired
for violating UL's rules
also UL said he had nothing to do with the WTC construction


----------



## Big_D (Jan 27, 2009)

eots said:


> Pilot who flew 2 planes used on 9/11 doesn't believe official story
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I have seen these individuals and all the ones you have used in the past.  None of them can compare to the amount of structure engineers that I have used in post number 423 of this thread.  They are the top engineering experts in the world and they approved two papers that showing that the WTC buildings were brought down by the planes, not explosives.


----------



## Mr. Jones (Jan 27, 2009)

Big_D said:


> Thermal energy is created by increased temperatures, it doesn't mean that demolition was used.  As per the article below they explain why it occurred.
> 
> "the thermal energy generated by the collapse of the two structures..."
> NPS-GIS World Trade Center GIS


 No it doesn't explain shit man. Those intense fires that burned for at least 100 days, were not caused by burning waste paper baskets etc.. They sprayed water on them and it still burned, and workers and firefighters saw molten metal running down the twisted beams in the pile.
And as far as not finding evidence of a CD because they didn't find cables or blasting caps etc..*(A)-* They weren't looking for any of that.
No one was sent  there to specifically look for evidence of CD. Office furniture, fabrics and human remains were transformed into dust in the time it took for the two towers to fall anyway.  Rescue workers report that they didn't find a computer, desk or chair. And
* (B)-*The detonating cord itself could have been used as a cutter-Here's an excerpt from a letter
that was sent to physicist Steven Jones, and others who have investigated the 
demolition of the towers-specifically regarding the dust at the scene-
*...."The work that you and others have produced detailing the residual chemical and physical signatures of the presence of Thermite and Thermate in the WTC dust has been extraordinary to say the least. But if I may be so bold, it would seem you are looking for the proverbial needle in a haystack full of nails.
The cutter charges you speak of do produce the type of evidence that you have pointed out several times and you have proven, in my opinion, their presence in the demolition of the World Trade Centers.
However, you mentioned in one of your lectures about the iron-rich spheres, that you and others have found many spheres of varying composition. I would like to suggest one possible explanation for that.*
*Detonating cord 
Your work explaining how the core and exterior columns were moved out of the way of the falling debris by the use of cutter charges like Thermite or Thermate has been exceptional. However, in the demolition industry, these types of charges are not used to remove floor mass or concrete firewalls.
That work is accomplished by the detonating cord itself.
This cord, though used as a fuse to ignite the cutter charges and accurately link them together in a controlled demolition, is also a high explosive in and of itself.
As a timing mechanism, detonation cord detonates at a very reliable rate (about 7000 - 8000 m/s), enabling engineers to control the pattern in which charges are detonated. This is particularly useful for demolitions, when structural elements need to be destroyed in a specific order to control the collapse of a building. Wiki
Cordtex and Primacord are the most commonly used detonation cords. Primaline, a heavier yield Primacord, has a hard plastic casing ...
*
http://files.meetup.com/1148/Open Letter to Steve Jones.txt


----------



## DiveCon (Jan 27, 2009)

Mr. Jones said:


> Big_D said:
> 
> 
> > Thermal energy is created by increased temperatures, it doesn't mean that demolition was used.  As per the article below they explain why it occurred.
> ...


oh man, not the thermite/thermate bs again




you guys are a fucking joke


----------



## manu1959 (Jan 27, 2009)

yep bush blew up the towers and faked a hit at the pentagon and faked a crash in a corn field and made all the people in the four planes disapear and convinced a rich kid to make a tape to take responsibilty for it all......all so he could invade iraq and help oil companies take the oil and ultimately destroy his reputation.....and not one of the conspirators has come forword......

bush is an evil genius......

odd that the x president that has recieved millions from the middle east......and appointed clarke and tenant....who were in charge of american security during all of this and the ones that convinced bush it was a slam dunk...was .....bill clinton.....and the secretary of state is now............his scorned wife.......


----------



## Mr. Jones (Jan 28, 2009)

Look, The official theory of the collapse, is a fire theory, and fire has never caused large steel-frame buildings to collapse. They say the fire was extraordinarily hot, at first they said it definitely was hot enough to melt the steel and cause the collapse. Hyman Brown and many experts claimed at the time, that the jet fuel melted the steel, other experts agreed saying nothing could survive the intense heat. But Steel does not even begin to melt until it reaches almost 2800°. Experts agree that kerosene which is what jet fuel mostly is, can at MOST rise to 1700°F. That's about 1100 degrees less, so that is why the fire melting the columns theory is being dismissed. Remember the towers were designed to withstand 200 mph winds and an impact by a commercial airliner-
"Hyman Brown, the construction manager of the Twin Towers, said: They were over-designed to withstand almost anything, including hurricanes, . . . bombings and an airplane hitting them"
" And even Thomas Eagar, an MIT professor of materials engineering who supports the official theory, says that the impact of the airplanes would not have been significant, because the number of columns lost on the initial impact was not large and the loads were shifted to remaining columns in this highly redundant structure
" Likewise, the NIST Report, in discussing how the impact of the planes contributed to the collapse, focuses primarily on the claim that the planes dislodged a lot of the fire-proofing from the steel."
So the official theory is a fire theory.
There are also many who claim the fires were merely hot enough to weaken the columns, but the heat would still have to be very hot, and burn for a long time to do this, however much of the fuel was burned up on impact and the rest burned in about 10 -15 minutes, then we all saw lots of black smoke after that signaling that the fires were starved of oxygen. It doesn't seem unreasonable to question the official theory based on these facts.
"NIST, which found that of the 16 perimeter columns examined, only three columns had evidence that the steel reached temperatures above 250&#730;C [482&#730;F],  These estimates were based on them analyzing 3% of the perimeter columns and 1% of the core
because  government officials had most of the steel immediately sold and shipped off. So really, they can't conclusively say for sure what the temps of the fires were, based on that small percentage-so their theory is also speculative, and not backed up by solid evidence either.
It is a fact that steel is a good conductor of heat and if you 've ever used a torch and cut some metal,  you would know that if you cut it on one end, the heat from your cut will spread a good distance down the steel bar, thereby diffusing the heat. In other words, the intense
heat needed to melt or soften the steel would have to remain concentrated on that one area, and in order for it to become so hot to do that to the other columns, it would have to be unbelievably hot,
relative to the size of the building.
The small localized fires of 1200-1300 degrees , would never have 
heated the columns enough to cause a global collapse, the heat would have been spread throughout the building.
Indeed there were fires but not big enough to cause the kind of damage we witnessed to one building, let alone three in the entire history of the planet!
Ok I read the 2nd tower got hit between floors 78 and 84, so that area should have had the most fire-"And yet Brian Clark, a survivor, said that when he got down to the 80th floor: "You could see through the wall and the cracks and see flames . . . just licking up, not a roaring inferno, just quiet flames licking up and smoke sort of eking through the wall." WTF?
"Likewise, one of the fire chiefs who had reached the 78th floor found only two isolated pockets of fire. ???
We watched as the media told us these intense fires burned for so long it eventually caused the collapses-North Tower 1 hr 42minutes-and the South Tower a whopping 56 minutes.

There have been other fires that burned way longer and with more intensity and not one has collapsed into their own foot print-
9-11 Research: Other Skyscraper Fires

 So of course the official theory is going to be questioned, you would have to be crazy or stupid not too 

"     Another important comparison is afforded by a series of experiments run in Great Britain in the mid-1990s to see what kind of damage could be done to steel-frame buildings by subjecting them to extremely hot, all-consuming fires that lasted for many hours. FEMA, having reviewed those experiments, said: Despite the temperature of the steel beams reaching 800-900°C (1,500-1,700°F) in three of the tests. . . , no collapse was observed in any of the six experiments (1988, Appendix A).
 These comparisons bring out the absurdity of NISTs claim that the towers collapsed because the planes knocked the fireproofing off the steel columns."
The only thing that has cause a total collapse of a steel hi-rise building is a _controlled demolition _ That is a FACT.

 By implying that fire produced collapses that perfectly mimicked the collapses that have otherwise been produced _only_ by precisely placed explosives, requires a miracle.
And they fell at free fall speed! The floors below would have had to provide _some_ kind of resistance! So the 9-11 commission completely leaves out the fact the towers had 47 massive steel core columns to get around that one, yeah fuck it pretend they don't exist  They actually said the middle core of the buildings was a hollow shaft!
Their version is absurd.  The trail of lies and inconsistencies, all the omissions and unanswered questions, all the unbelievable coincidences that led up to that day. When you add it all up, it doesn't make sense, and that is why more and more people suspect that 9-11 WAS AN INSIDE JOB AND STILL NEEDS TO BE INVESTIGATED.


----------



## DiveCon (Jan 28, 2009)

Mr. Jones said:


> Look, The official theory of the collapse, is a fire theory, and fire has never caused large steel-frame buildings to collapse. .


 WRONG
that is a complete LIE

the building you morons like to use as an example in Spain, the part that collapsed was of similar constrution as the WTC buildings, the rest(the part that DIDNT collapse) wasnt, it was a combo of steel and concrete
but the steel only part DID collapse


----------



## RetiredGySgt (Jan 28, 2009)

Godboy said:


> > I don't believe it's possible for... a so-called terrorist to train on a 172, then jump in a cockpit of a 757-767 class cockpit, and vertical navigate the aircraft, lateral navigate the aircraft, and fly the airplane at speeds exceeding it's design limit speed by well over 100 knots, make high-speed high-banked turns,.. pulling probably 5, 6, 7 G's... I couldn't do it and I'm absolutely positive they couldn't do it."
> 
> 
> 
> Yet it still happened. How do you explain the planes we all saw crash into the twin towers, if its impossible for them to crash, as your quote claims?



He claims several things, depending on the day of the week and whether he thinks he can get away with it.

At one point he claimed they were radio controlled, which he has alluded to in this thread. Another time he has claimed the Government worked with the terrorists alluding to the fact we trained them for the job, another time he claimed the Government sent their own pilots.

He has also claimed at times no planes struck anything, and you can see that in the story he cited for you here. Alleged? Funny I did not see an alleged anything on 9/11.

He has claimed that no plane hit the Pentagon, though do not ask him where the plane, passengers and crew went. He has at times claimed only a couple guys could have pulled off 9/11 the inside job. He has claimed at times no plane crashed in Pennsylvania AND he has claimed the airforce shot the plane down. He has claimed there was no debris at the Pentagon AND he has claimed there was lots of Debris all from the wrong aircraft and airline.

He quotes snippets of people and then claims they believe the Government is covering up, of course if you read what they ACTUALLY said, you find out they disagreed with some small part of the explanation and never once claimed the Government covered up anything.

Press him and he will anounce he does not have to provide any theories just shoot down any he does not agree with.


----------



## eots (Jan 28, 2009)

RetiredGySgt said:


> Godboy said:
> 
> 
> > > I don't believe it's possible for... a so-called terrorist to train on a 172, then jump in a cockpit of a 757-767 class cockpit, and vertical navigate the aircraft, lateral navigate the aircraft, and fly the airplane at speeds exceeding it's design limit speed by well over 100 knots, make high-speed high-banked turns,.. pulling probably 5, 6, 7 G's... I couldn't do it and I'm absolutely positive they couldn't do it."
> ...



what  are you rambling about now ?


----------



## Mr. Jones (Jan 28, 2009)

DiveCon said:


> Mr. Jones said:
> 
> 
> > Look, The official theory of the collapse, is a fire theory, and fire has never caused large steel-frame buildings to collapse. .
> ...


Wrong- You got it backwards there. Concrete basically explodes and pops off of whatever it is attached to when you heat the piss out it. I worked for years with oxy acetelene torches and have on more then one occasion either set the torch to close to the floor or dropped it on accident.  The part of the Windsor building that collapsed was the CONCRETE REINFORCED PART. 
Concrete does not dissipate heat well at all. Concrete when exposed to very high heat will pop, it does this because of a small percentage of latent moisture in it.  The Windsor building was
partially reinforced in concrete and rebar.
*Windsor Building Partial Collapse

The observation that the Windsor Building is the only skyscraper to have suffered even a partial collapse as a result of fire suggests that the use of steel-reinforced-concrete framing was responsible. A closer look at the incident shows reality to be more complex. The portion of the building that collapsed consisted of the outer portions of floor slabs and perimeter walls throughout the upper third of the building (the 21st through 32nd floors). The outer walls consisted of steel box columns arranged on 1.8 meter centers and connected by narrow spandrel plates. The columns had square cross-sections 120mm on a side, and were fabricated of C-sections 7mm thick welded together. (these were a fraction of the dimensions, and spaced about twice as far apart as the perimeter columns of the Twin Towers.) The perimeter columns lacked fireproofing throughout the upper third of the Windsor building. 5  

The Windsor Building fire engulfed the upper third of the building, but also spread downward as low as the fourth floor. A report by two fire safety experts in Japan highlighted three causes for the very wide extent of the fire:  
    * The lack of a sprinkler system
    * Incorrect installation of spandrels
    * The lack of fire prevention regulations in Spain 
The Windsor Building fire demonstrates that a huge building-consuming fire, after burning for many hours can produce the collapse of parts of the building with weak steel supports lacking fire protection. It also shows that the collapse events that do occur are gradual and partial. *
The partial collapses of this building was spread out during the course of about 3 hrs. 
*These partial collapse events, spread over several hours, contrast with the implosion of WTC Building 7 in 7 seconds, and the total explosive collapses of each of the Twin Towers in under 17 seconds.* 
All of the buildings mentioned burned a hell of a lot longer then the trade center fires did and none of them came down looking like they were imploded. BTW-How do you explain the eyewitnesses that heard explosions at the base of the buildings, and the firefighters who heard rapid explosions in succession as one chief described' pop, pop ,pop in rapid order? Are all these people coooks or liars?
I think most people know something just isn't right about the events but are in all honesty in a state of denial that evil people were/are in control of their country.


----------



## Godboy (Jan 28, 2009)

Mr. Jones said:


> DiveCon said:
> 
> 
> > Mr. Jones said:
> ...



Once again, all your facts and your presentation of them are garbage. Thats all flat wrong.


----------



## Godboy (Jan 28, 2009)

> BTW-How do you explain the eyewitnesses that heard explosions at the base of the buildings, and the firefighters who heard rapid explosions in succession as one chief described' pop, pop ,pop in rapid order? Are all these people coooks or liars?



Of course they are liars. Everyone knows that when buildings collapse, they make no sound at all.


----------



## Mr. Jones (Jan 28, 2009)

LMAO, You guys are fkn nuts


----------



## Godboy (Jan 28, 2009)

Mr. Jones said:


> LMAO, You guys are fkn nuts



I hardly think a consipracy wacko is a good judge of who is sane and who is not.

You nut jobs do realize that you are a joke to the sane world right? Nobody takes you seriously and nor should they. You deserve the ridicule and we have fun when we do it. I remember you from school, you were the weird booger eating kid in the class with no friends that everybody picked on. Seems nothing has changed for you as an adult.


----------



## DiveCon (Jan 28, 2009)

Godboy said:


> > BTW-How do you explain the eyewitnesses that heard explosions at the base of the buildings, and the firefighters who heard rapid explosions in succession as one chief described' pop, pop ,pop in rapid order? Are all these people coooks or liars?
> 
> 
> 
> Of course they are liars. Everyone knows that when buildings collapse, they make no sound at all.


yeah, and people that have never heard an explosive go off before are great people to trust when they say they heard an explosion

just like people have discribed a cars backfire as a gunshot
anyone that knows what a gunshot really sounds like doesnt say that


----------



## Mr. Jones (Jan 28, 2009)

Godboy said:


> Mr. Jones said:
> 
> 
> > LMAO, You guys are fkn nuts
> ...


 No you sure got me figured wrong asswipe. Im the sob that would've put an asswipping  on those that would pick on the helpless little booger eaters, and enjoyed taking their lunch money an given it to them too . If anybody is a nut job it's people like you that believe any crock of shit your TV and your government tell you no matter how wrong or unreasonable it may be.
Your government and politicians have bullshitted you all your miserable controlled little life face it, it's all around you and more then likely going to get worse, and denying it makes you look like a weak coward afraid of reality and the real world. You go ahead and continue to kiss ass and be a good little brainwashed robot, but someday you're going to have to decide whose side your on, the patriots who are tired of getting fked over, or the terrorists who stole your country from you and your kids.


----------



## DiveCon (Jan 28, 2009)

Mr. Jones said:


> Godboy said:
> 
> 
> > Mr. Jones said:
> ...


dude, seriously, seek out professional help


----------



## eots (Jan 28, 2009)

Edna Cintron &#8211; WTC victim.  Administrative Assistant, Marsh & McLennan, WTC North Tower

Video of Edna Cintron waving: Person Waving from Plane Shape Hole 


Editor's note: The appearance of Edna Cintron, looking out of the hole in the North Tower caused by the airplane impact, raises doubts about the existence of raging fires at the impact point hot enough to substantially weaken steel, which according to the official account caused the collapse of the Twin Towers.  Note also the near absence of smoke and flames.  See also Chief Orio Palmer. 


Bio: RussBaker.com 



Captain Karin DeShore &#8211; WTC survivor.  Battalion 46, FDNY.  

Statement recorded by FDNY 11/7/01: After having survived the collapse of the South Tower by taking shelter behind a large pillar near Ground Zero, Captain DeShore found temporary safety in a small shop. "I went outside to see what I could do, when I saw the second building of the World Trade Center [North Tower], still unbeknown to me the first one had collapsed. 

Somewhere around the middle of the World Trade Center, there was this orange and red flash coming out. Initially it was just one flash. Then this flash just kept popping all the way around the building and that building had started to explode. The popping sound, and with each popping sound it was initially an orange and then a red flash came out of the building and then it would just go all around the building on both sides as far as I could see. These popping sounds and the explosions were getting bigger, going both up and down and then all around the building. 







*
Major General Albert Stubblebine, U.S. Army (ret) &#8211; Former Commanding General of U.S. Army Intelligence and Security Command, 1981 - 1984.*  Also commanded the U.S. Army&#8217;s Electronic Research and Development Command and the U.S. Army&#8217;s Intelligence School and Center. Former *head of Imagery Interpretation for Scientific and Technical Intelligence. *32-year Army career. 

*Member, Military Intelligence Hall of Fame*. 
Video 7/11/06: "One of my experiences in the Army was being in charge of the Army&#8217;s Imagery Interpretation for Scientific and Technical Intelligence during the Cold War.  I measured pieces of Soviet equipment from photographs. It was my job. I look at the hole in the Pentagon and I look at the size of an airplane that was supposed to have hit the Pentagon. And I said, &#8216;The plane does not fit in that hole&#8217;. So what did hit the Pentagon? What hit it? Where is it? What's going on?" http://www.und 


*

Lt. Col. Robert Bowman, PhD, U.S. Air Force (ret) &#8211; Director of Advanced Space Programs Development under Presidents Ford and Carter.  U.S. Air Force fighter pilot with over 100 combat missions. (PhD in Aeronautics and Nuclear Engineering, Cal Tech). *  Former Head of the Department of Aeronautical Engineering and Assistant Dean at the U.S. Air Force Institute of Technology.  22-year Air Force career.  Also taught Mathematics and English at the University of Southern California, the University of Maryland, and Phillips University. 
Video 9/11/04: "A lot of these pieces of information, taken together, prove that the official story, the official conspiracy theory of 9/11 is a bunch of hogwash.  It&#8217;s impossible. &#8230; There&#8217;s a second group of facts having to do with the cover up. &#8230; Taken together these things prove that high levels of our government don&#8217;t want us to know what happened and who&#8217;s responsible.&#8230; 

Who gained from 9/11?  Who covered up crucial information about 9/11?  And who put out the patently false stories about 9/11 in the first place?  When you take those three things together, I think the case is pretty clear that it&#8217;s highly placed individuals in the administration with all roads passing through Dick Cheney. 

*I think the very kindest thing that we can say about George W. Bush and all the people in the U.S. Government that have been involved in this massive cover-up, the very kindest thing we can say is that they were aware of impending attacks and let them happen.  Now some people will say that&#8217;s much too kind, however even that is high treason and conspiracy to commit murder."* http://video.go 


Signatory: Petition requesting a reinvestigation of 9/11:     
"We want truthful answers to question. &#8230;  As Americans of conscience, we ask for four things: 
An immediate investigation by New York Attorney General Eliot Spitzer 
Immediate investigation 

*

Col. George Nelson, MBA, U.S. Air Force (ret) &#8211; Former U.S. Air Force aircraft accident investigator and airplane parts authority.*  Graduate, U.S. Air Force War College.  34-year Air Force career. 

Licensed commercial pilot.  Licensed airframe and powerplant mechanic. 




Essay: "In all my years of direct and indirect participation, I never witnessed nor even heard of an aircraft loss, where the wreckage was accessible, that prevented investigators from finding enough hard evidence to positively identify the make, model, and specific registration number of the aircraft -- and in most cases the precise cause of the accident. ... 

The government alleges that four wide-body airliners crashed on the morning of September 11 2001, resulting in the deaths of more than 3,000 human beings, yet not one piece of hard aircraft evidence has been produced in an attempt to positively identify any of the four aircraft. On the contrary, it seems only that all potential evidence was deliberately kept hidden from public view. &#8230; 

*With all the evidence readily available at the Pentagon crash site, any unbiased rational investigator could only conclude that a Boeing 757 did not fly into the Pentagon as alleged. Similarly, with all the evidence available at the Pennsylvania crash site, it was most doubtful that a passenger airliner caused the obvious hole in the ground and certainly not the Boeing 757 as alleged. &#8230; 

As painful and heartbreaking as was the loss of innocent lives and the lingering health problems of thousands more, a most troublesome and nightmarish probability remains that so many Americans appear to be involved in the most heinous conspiracy in our country's history."* Physics911, by Scientific Panel Investigating Nine-Eleven, 9/11/2001


----------



## DiveCon (Jan 28, 2009)

eots said:


> Edna Cintron  WTC victim. Administrative Assistant, Marsh & McLennan, WTC North Tower
> 
> Video of Edna Cintron waving: Person Waving from Plane Shape Hole
> 
> ...


 whos to say she wasnt near death from the heat
you dont know
thats why making the claim it wasnt hot there is complete BULLSHIT


----------



## eots (Jan 28, 2009)

ZERO.Investigation.Into.911.avi


----------



## eots (Jan 28, 2009)

if your ADD ..doesnt stop you you should view this film..I  know you prefer fox sound bites to explain the world,,but you should give something else a try


----------



## DiveCon (Jan 28, 2009)

eots said:


> ZERO.Investigation.Into.911.avi


you want people to waste their time on a fucking 2 hour video with nothing to say what to expect from it

LOL
what a loon


----------



## DiveCon (Jan 28, 2009)

so, eots, whats in this video thats different from the 1000's of other stupid videos you nutters have posted that will suddenly make me want to believe in your asinine fucking conspiracies


btw, you may have deleted your post, but i still got it, you are the one with the serious attention issues


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## Big_D (Jan 28, 2009)

Mr. Jones said:


> Those intense fires that burned for at least 100 days, were not caused by burning waste paper baskets etc.. They sprayed water on them and it still burned, and workers and firefighters saw molten metal running down the twisted beams in the pile.



As it clearly showed on the link I supplied, the thermal energy was caused by the heat.



Mr. Jones said:


> And as far as not finding evidence of a CD because they didn't find cables or blasting caps etc..*(A)-* They weren't looking for any of that.
> No one was sent  there to specifically look for evidence of CD.



 Take a look at this photo here:

http://www.debunking911.com/paper.jpg

As you can tell, paper was found in the debris. If paper was found then certainly explosives would have been found as well.


Mr. Jones said:


> * (B)-*The detonating cord itself could have been used as a cutter-Here's an excerpt from a letter
> that was sent to physicist Steven Jones, and others who have investigated the
> demolition of the towers-specifically regarding the dust at the scene-
> *...."
> *


*


According to demolition experts Mark Loizeaux, there would have been plenty of this stuff.  At least one camera would have had this on tape and it would be on countless conspirator's websites.

"Mark Loizeaux who runs one of the world's leading demolition companies, Controlled Demolition Incorporated, and who holds the world record for bringing down the largest steel structure, the J L Hudson building in Detroit, says it is simply not possible to bring down a building like Tower 7 which was fully occupied and without anybody seeing or hearing something...
Mr Loizeaux also told the BBC that you would need to place hundreds of explosive charges along with miles of initiating cable and miles more detonating cord. And you would find evidence left behind of all these explosive charges, blasting caps and tubes. "

BBC NEWS | Programmes | Conspiracy Files | Q&A: The collapse of Tower 7*


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## eots (Jan 28, 2009)

quit your rambling...and just admit you cant focus long enough..to many facts make your brain hurt


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## eots (Jan 28, 2009)

No it doesn't explain shit man. Those intense fires that burned for at least 100 days, were not caused by burning waste paper baskets etc.. They sprayed water on them and it still burned, and workers and firefighters saw molten metal running down the twisted beams in the pile.
And as far as not finding evidence of a CD because they didn't find cables or blasting caps etc..(A)- They weren't looking for any of that.
No one was sent there to specifically look for evidence of CD. Office furniture, fabrics and human remains were transformed into dust in the time it took for the two towers to fall anyway. Rescue workers report that they didn't find a computer, desk or chair. And
(B)-The detonating cord itself could have been used as a cutter-Here's an excerpt from a letter
that was sent to physicist Steven Jones, and others who have investigated the 
demolition of the towers-specifically regarding the dust at the scene-
...."The work that you and others have produced detailing the residual chemical and physical signatures of the presence of Thermite and Thermate in the WTC dust has been extraordinary to say the least. But if I may be so bold, it would seem you are looking for the proverbial needle in a haystack full of nails.
The cutter charges you speak of do produce the type of evidence that you have pointed out several times and you have proven, in my opinion, their presence in the demolition of the World Trade Centers.
However, you mentioned in one of your lectures about the iron-rich spheres, that you and others have found many spheres of varying composition. I would like to suggest one possible explanation for that.
Detonating cord 
Your work explaining how the core and exterior columns were moved out of the way of the falling debris by the use of cutter charges like Thermite or Thermate has been exceptional. However, in the demolition industry, these types of charges are not used to remove floor mass or concrete firewalls.
That work is accomplished by the detonating cord itself.
This cord, though used as a fuse to ignite the cutter charges and accurately link them together in a controlled demolition, is also a high explosive in and of itself.
As a timing mechanism, detonation cord detonates at a very reliable rate (about 7000 - 8000 m/s), enabling engineers to control the pattern in which charges are detonated. This is particularly useful for demolitions, when structural elements need to be destroyed in a specific order to control the collapse of a building. Wiki
Cordtex and Primacord are the most commonly used detonation cords. Primaline, a heavier yield Primacord, has a hard plastic casing ...


----------



## Big_D (Jan 28, 2009)

eots said:


> No it doesn't explain shit man. Those intense fires that burned for at least 100 days, were not caused by burning waste paper baskets etc.. They sprayed water on them and it still burned, and workers and firefighters saw molten metal running down the twisted beams in the pile.
> And as far as not finding evidence of a CD because they didn't find cables or blasting caps etc..(A)- They weren't looking for any of that.
> No one was sent there to specifically look for evidence of CD. Office furniture, fabrics and human remains were transformed into dust in the time it took for the two towers to fall anyway. Rescue workers report that they didn't find a computer, desk or chair. And
> (B)-The detonating cord itself could have been used as a cutter-Here's an excerpt from a letter
> ...



I just responded to that post


----------



## eots (Jan 28, 2009)

Big_D said:


> Mr. Jones said:
> 
> 
> > Those intense fires that burned for at least 100 days, were not caused by burning waste paper baskets etc.. They sprayed water on them and it still burned, and workers and *firefighters saw molten metal* running down the twisted beams in the pile.
> ...


----------



## DiveCon (Jan 28, 2009)

eots said:


> Big_D said:
> 
> 
> > Mr. Jones said:
> ...


----------



## DiveCon (Jan 28, 2009)

eots said:


> quit your rambling...and just admit you cant focus long enough..to many facts make your brain hurt


i can focus on facts, but clearly you cant
you dont post facts, you post utter nonsense


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## Big_D (Jan 28, 2009)

eots said:


> but yet the NIST report says no* molten metal...*because without explosives no such temps could of been created



Fireman could have easily seen molten metal at the WTC debris.  The world trade center was completely covered in aluminum alloy. (World Trade Center aluminum - September 11: Bearing Witness to History)  Aluminum has a melting point of 660.32 Celsius.  (Aluminium - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)  According to Dr. Hassan Astaneh, Professor of engineering at Berkley , (Jets hit towers in most vulnerable spots / Killers appear to have known where to strike) the heat was well more than enough to melt the aluminum.  Therefore, the molten metal they witnessed could have easily have been aluminum, not steel.


----------



## eots (Jan 28, 2009)

[ame]http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=Zww9-AaIgrw[/ame]




[ame=http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=LTa_XL_k8fY]YouTube - Scientists Examine the Molten Steel that Lingered for Weeks Underneath WTC 1, 2 & 7 on 9/11 - Many Surprises Found[/ame]


----------



## DiveCon (Jan 28, 2009)

eots said:


> http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=Zww9-AaIgrw
> 
> 
> 
> ...


yet they never show any "molten metal"


----------



## eots (Jan 28, 2009)

so all the eyewitnesses  liar ,,morons...?  have some balls and view the film it features many of the military experts you claim don't exist or just shut the fuck up and admit you have no interest in knowing the truth


ZERO.Investigation.Into.911.avi


----------



## DiveCon (Jan 28, 2009)

eots said:


> so all the eyewitnesses  liar ,,morons...?  have some balls and view the film it features many of the military experts you claim don't exist or just shut the fuck up and admit you have no interest in knowing the truth
> 
> 
> ZERO.Investigation.Into.911.avi


i watched some of both
and what they "called" molten" was being picked up by "TONGS"
now, if you understand what the word "molten" means, you will know that is IMPOSSIBLE
you can NOT pick up a LIQUID with TONGS


----------



## Big_D (Jan 28, 2009)

eots said:


> so all the eyewitnesses  liar ,,morons...?  have some balls and view the film it features many of the military experts you claim don't exist or just shut the fuck up and admit you have no interest in knowing the truth



I can believe that these people saw molten _metal._  However, you *never* proved that this metal was steel.  As I said, the entire buildings were covered in aluminum and this melts at a temperature far below steel.  The buildings could have easily been hot enough to melt this.   

What you never stated was how the buildings could have been wired up and planted with demolition when 30 million people went through the buildings yearly.  Nobody has came forward with evidence that there was demolition in the buildings despite the fact that it was over seven years ago.  How could they even wire and place demolition without _anyone_ noticing?


----------



## DiveCon (Jan 28, 2009)

this is what they claim to be "molten" metal
notice nothing is dripping
while it is red and white hot, it is not "molten"


----------



## eots (Jan 28, 2009)

DiveCon said:


> this is what they claim to be "molten" metal
> notice nothing is dripping
> while it is red and white hot, it is not "molten"



eyewitness reported molten metal..and red and white hot metal can not be produced from kerosene and burning furniture,,,

look at the flaws of the official story on a whole...if you are at all intrested in finding the truth

ZERO.Investigation.Into.911.avi


----------



## Godboy (Jan 28, 2009)

eots said:


> so all the eyewitnesses  liar ,,morons...?  have some balls and view the film it features many of the military experts you claim don't exist or just shut the fuck up and admit you have no interest in knowing the truth
> 
> 
> ZERO.Investigation.Into.911.avi



No, only the eyewitnesses that suggest this was an inside job were morons, the rest were normal people like the rest of us.

I still find it strange that YOU (Eots) claim you have proof of an inside job, yet you just sit here, wasting your time by cutting and pasting crap from conspiracy websites. Why not take your evidence to the FBI if its so important and obvious as you claim. Werent you saying that you had physics on your side and that its impossible for the steel to melt like it did? If this is true, why waste your time telling us stupid non believers, when you could bring the evidence to smart people who would understand it? 

I suspect your evidence isnt nearly as good as you claim (insert sarcastic grin here), of course you can always prove me wrong, simply by turning in thgis evidence of yours. If theres any truth to it, i would imagine it will be all over the news within days.


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## RetiredGySgt (Jan 28, 2009)

Godboy said:


> eots said:
> 
> 
> > so all the eyewitnesses  liar ,,morons...?  have some balls and view the film it features many of the military experts you claim don't exist or just shut the fuck up and admit you have no interest in knowing the truth
> ...



You don't get it... Everyone but the tinfoil brigade are either in on it or to stupid to get it.


----------



## eots (Jan 28, 2009)

Godboy said:


> eots said:
> 
> 
> > so all the eyewitnesses  liar ,,morons...?  have some balls and view the film it features many of the military experts you claim don't exist or just shut the fuck up and admit you have no interest in knowing the truth
> ...



you are only showing your complete ignorence..these are not my claims or theory's they are the beliefs and opinions of many top level military experts,,*including CIA AND FBI agents*a fact you simply can not deal with..what should concern you is why this fact is not reported in the controlled media...I have however for my own amusement and protest made a habit of phoning and e-mailing the FBI -CIA AND HOMELAND SECURITY to report the crimes of the administration ....


----------



## eots (Jan 28, 2009)

RetiredGySgt said:


> Godboy said:
> 
> 
> > eots said:
> ...



no ..not stupid..just mind controled through the controled media


*the tin foil hat brigade*

Patriots Question 9/11 - Responsible Criticism of the 9/11 Commission ...
This website provides responsible criticism of the 9/11 Commission Report by senior military, intelligence and government officials.

Patriots Question 9/11 - Responsible Criticism of the 9/11 Commission Report


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## DiveCon (Jan 28, 2009)

eots said:


> DiveCon said:
> 
> 
> > this is what they claim to be "molten" metal
> ...


i already know the truth


----------



## Godboy (Jan 28, 2009)

> eots
> Registered User
> Member #3851
> 
> I have however for my own amusement and protest made a habit of phoning and e-mailing the FBI -CIA AND HOMELAND SECURITY to report the crimes of the administration ....



Ok, i knew it. Your not just some normal guy who happens to believe in the conspiracy, and this isnt the first time in your life where youve been in disagreement with everyone else around you, to your disbelief. Im sure you know youre a little different from everyone else, but you will never admit it given the current debate and the question of your sanity. Im sure its not uncommon for people around you to think your weird. Thats actually you in your avatar picture right? Yeah, i figured that was you, and while in that picture you are trying to act silly, theres a hint of lunacy in it. Youre that weird guy that creeps the girls out.


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## Modbert (Jan 29, 2009)

I've always questioned the knowledge of the Government about what happened on 9/11 and whether they had a role in it or not.

And this is even when I take out the conspiracy theories but use their own words.

Rummy saying the plane over Penn was shot down.

Bush saying he saw the 1st plane hit on 9/11 and making a lame joke in the same context which is impossible because nobody saw the first plane hit.

Small things like that make me go


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## RetiredGySgt (Jan 29, 2009)

Robert_Santurri said:


> I've always questioned the knowledge of the Government about what happened on 9/11 and whether they had a role in it or not.
> 
> And this is even when I take out the conspiracy theories but use their own words.
> 
> ...



Ya, cause well it would have been so easy for the Government to have planned and executed the attacks and then have kept it secret all these years. The number of people that would have to have been involved in the planning and execution of the attacks then the even more needed to cover it up make it the stupidest claim ever.


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## Godboy (Jan 29, 2009)

> The number of people that would have to have been involved in the planning and execution of the attacks then the even more needed to cover it up make it the stupidest claim ever.



This is the thing the conspiracy guys always fail to REALLY consider. They seem content with the idea that it would only take a handful of people to pull it off. While it may sound like a joke, i blame Hollywood. You watch enough movies about government cover-ups, it starts to seem plausible, for some people.


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## eots (Jan 29, 2009)

Godboy said:


> > eots
> > Registered User
> > Member #3851
> >
> ...



get serious.!.. lthe ladies love me !


----------



## eots (Jan 29, 2009)

RetiredGySgt said:


> Robert_Santurri said:
> 
> 
> > I've always questioned the knowledge of the Government about what happened on 9/11 and whether they had a role in it or not.
> ...



but some very experienced military Intel people disagree with your assumption on this... clearly

*William Christison  Former National Intelligence Officer and Director of the CIA's Office of Regional and Political Analysis.  29-year CIA veteran.*

Endorsement of Debunking 9/11 Debunking 3/30/07:  "David Ray Griffins Debunking 9/11 Debunking is a superb compendium of the strong body of evidence showing the official U.S. Government story of what happened on September 11, 2001 to be almost certainly a monstrous series of lies.  Tragically, the entire course of U.S. foreign and domestic policies since that date has grown out of these almost certain falsehoods.  This single book could (and should) provide the basis for the United Nations International Court of Justice, or some specially constituted global body (independent of the U.S.) to investigate with highest priority, and publicly report its findings about, the charge that unknown elements within the U.S. Government, and possibly some individuals elsewhere closely allied to the U.S., caused or contributed to causing the events of September 11 to happen." Amazon.com: Online Shopping for Electronics, Apparel, Computers, Books, DVDs & more 





*Capt. Gregory M. Zeigler, PhD, U.S. Army  Former U.S. Army Intelligence Officer *

Statement to this website 9/19/06: "I knew from September 18, 2001, that the official story about 9/11 was false. ... [A]nomalies poured in rapidly: the hijackers' names appearing in none of the published flight passenger lists, BBC reports of stolen identities of the alleged hijackers or the alleged hijackers being found alive, the obvious demolitions of WTC 1 and 2 [each 1300+ feet tall, 110 stories], and WTC 7, the lack of identifiable Boeing 757 wreckage at the Pentagon ... Link to full statement     [Editor's note: WTC Building 7 was 610 feet tall, 47 stories.  It would have been the tallest building in 33 states.  Although it was not hit by an airplane, it completely collapsed into a pile of rubble in less than 7 seconds at 5:20 p.m. on 9/11, seven hours after the collapses of the Twin Towers.  However, no mention of its collapse appears in the 9/11 Commission's "full and complete account of the circumstances surrounding the September 11, 2001 terrorist attacks."  Watch the collapse video here.  And six years after 9/11, the Federal government has yet to publish its promised final report that explains the cause of its collapse.] 


Member: Scholars for 9/11 Truth and Justice   Association Statement: "Scholars for 9/11 Truth and Justice is a non-partisan organization consisting of independent researchers and activists engaged in uncovering the true nature of the September 11, 2001 attacks." 





*Robert David Steele (Vivas)  U.S. Marine Corps infantry and intelligence officer for twenty years.  Second-ranking civilian (GS-14) in U.S. Marine Corps Intelligence from 1988 - 1992 and a member of the Adjunct Faculty of Marine Corps University.   Also former clandestine services case officer with the CIA.  25-year U.S. military and intelligence career.  Currently Founder and CEO of OSS.net and a proponent of Open Source Intelligence.* 

Author of On Intelligence: Spies and Secrecy in an Open World (2000, Foreword by Senator David Boren (D-OK)),  The New Craft of Intelligence: Personal, Public, & Political (2002, Foreword by Senator Pat Roberts (R-KS)),  Information Operations: All Information, All Languages, All the Time (2005, Foreword by Congressman Rob Simmons (R-CT-02)), The Smart Nation Act: Public Intelligence in the Public Interest (2006). Co-author of NATO Open Source Intelligence Handbook (2001).  Co-editor of NATO Open Source Intelligence Reader (2002).  Contributing editor of Peacekeeping Intelligence: Emerging Concepts for the Future (2003, Foreword by Dame Pauline Neville-Jones, UK).  
*Essay 10/7/06: Review of Webster Tarpley's 9/11 Synthetic Terror: Made in the USA.  "I am forced to conclude that 9/11 was at a minimum allowed to happen as a pretext for 
war, *and I am forced to conclude that there is sufficient evidence to indict (not necessarily convict) Dick Cheney, Karl Rove and others of a neo-conservative neo-Nazi coup d'etat and kick-off of the clash of civilizations. ... 

This is, without question, the most important modern reference on state-sponsored terrorism, and also the reference that most pointedly suggests that select rogue elements within the US Government, most likely led by Dick Cheney with the assistance of George Tenet, Buzzy Kronguard, and others close to the Wall Street gangs, are the most guilty of state-sponsored terrorism.... 

I sit here, a 54-year old, liberally educated, two graduate degrees, war college, a life overseas, 150 IQ or so, the number #1 Amazon reviewer for non-fiction, a former Marine Corps infantry officer, a former CIA clandestine case officer, founder of the Marine Corps Intelligence Center, and I have to tell anyone who cares to read this: I believe it. I believe it enough to want a full investigation that passes the smell test of the 9/11 families as well as objective outside observers." Amazon.com: Online Shopping for Electronics, Apparel, Computers, Books, DVDs & more 


OpEdNews » Twenty-five U.S. Military Officers Challenge Official Account of 9/11


----------



## DiveCon (Jan 29, 2009)

eots said:


> RetiredGySgt said:
> 
> 
> > Robert_Santurri said:
> ...


again, you C&P more crap from a troofer nutters site


----------



## Big_D (Jan 29, 2009)

Nobody can compare to the experts who wrote and and approved the following two papers:

http://www.civil.northwestern.edu/people/bazant/PDFs/Papers/405.pdf

http://www.structuremag.org/Archives/2007-11/SF-WTC7-Gilsanz-Nov07.pdf

Here are the experts from the* engineering division of the Society for Industrial and Applied Mathematics* that passed the two papers: 

ASCE-EMD - ADMINISTRATIVE COMMITTEES

http://www.ce.jhu.edu/emd/excom.htm

http://www.ce.jhu.edu/emd/admin.htmll

Two papers about 9/11 has passed the society of industrial and applied mathematics and they both agree it was done by terrorist's planes.  _All_ these engineering professors just simply cannot be wrong.


----------



## Modbert (Jan 29, 2009)

RetiredGySgt said:


> Robert_Santurri said:
> 
> 
> > I've always questioned the knowledge of the Government about what happened on 9/11 and whether they had a role in it or not.
> ...



Not saying such a thing would be easy. I'm simply stating that I wonder about the government's role in 9/11. It seems to me it's similar to the beginning of past wars.

Though I'm simply stating their words, that's what makes me go .


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## eots (Jan 29, 2009)

what do they know about military intelligence ?...the papers are basically meaningless ...a real and full investigation of 911 under the terms set out in the petition is the only way the have definitive answers



*Capt. Edgar Mitchell, U.S. Navy (ret), BS Industrial Management, BS Aeronautical Engineering, Doctor of Science, Aeronautics and Astronautics from MIT &#8211; Pilot and Astronaut.  Sixth man to walk on the moon (Apollo 14 mission).*  Patrol bomber and attack plane pilot, U.S. Navy.  Test Pilot, Air Test and Evaluation Squadron 5 (VX-5).  Chief of Project Management Division, Navy Field Office for the Manned Orbiting Laboratory Project.  Graduated first in his class from the Aerospace Research Pilot School, and served as an instructor there.  Recipient of many awards and honors including the Presidential Medal of Freedom, the USN Distinguished Medal and three NASA Group Achievement Awards. Inducted to the Space Hall of Fame in 1979 and the Astronaut Hall of Fame in 1998.  Recipient of honorary doctorates in engineering from New Mexico State University, the University of Akron, Carnegie Mellon University, and a ScD from Embry-Riddle University.  Founder of the Institute of Noetic Sciences. 
Endorser of and proposed Commissioner of a New Investigation into 9/11 as described in the New York City Ballot Initiative 11/08: "Petition to Create a NYC Independent Commission with Subpoena Power to Conduct a Comprehensive and Fact-Driven Investigation of All Relevant Aspects of the Tragic Events of September 11, 2001 and Issue a Report. 

WHEREAS, many New York City voters believe that there remain many unanswered questions critical to establishing the truth about all relevant events leading up to, during and subsequent to the tragic attacks occurring on September 11, 2001 (&#8220;9/11&#8221, and 

WHEREAS, no prior investigation by any New York City agency or any other governmental entity has resulted in the citizens being provided with those critical answers or information necessary to establish the truth about those tragic events, ... 

An independent, temporary New York City commission (the &#8220;Commission&#8221 is hereby created to conduct a comprehensive, factdriven investigation into the events that took place on 9/11, as well as to thoroughly examine related events before and after the attacks, including any activities attempting to hide, cover up, impede or obstruct any investigation into these 9/11 events, following wherever the facts may lead. The Commission shall publish one or more reports of their findings." 



* "We want truthful answers to question. &#8230;  As Americans of conscience, we ask for four things: *
An immediate investigation by New York Attorney General Eliot Spitzer 
Immediate investigation in Congressional Hearings. 
Media attention to scrutinize and investigate the evidence. 
The formation of a truly independent citizens-based inquiry." http://www.911truth.org/article 

Patriots Question 9/11 - Responsible Criticism of the 9/11 Commission Report


----------



## eots (Jan 29, 2009)

what do they know about military intelligence ?...the papers are basically meaningless ...a real and full investigation of 911 under the terms set out in the petition is the only way the have definitive answers



*Capt. Edgar Mitchell, U.S. Navy (ret), BS Industrial Management, BS Aeronautical Engineering, Doctor of Science, Aeronautics and Astronautics from MIT  Pilot and Astronaut.  Sixth man to walk on the moon (Apollo 14 mission).*  Patrol bomber and attack plane pilot, U.S. Navy.  Test Pilot, Air Test and Evaluation Squadron 5 (VX-5).  Chief of Project Management Division, Navy Field Office for the Manned Orbiting Laboratory Project.  Graduated first in his class from the Aerospace Research Pilot School, and served as an instructor there.  Recipient of many awards and honors including the Presidential Medal of Freedom, the USN Distinguished Medal and three NASA Group Achievement Awards. Inducted to the Space Hall of Fame in 1979 and the Astronaut Hall of Fame in 1998.  Recipient of honorary doctorates in engineering from New Mexico State University, the University of Akron, Carnegie Mellon University, and a ScD from Embry-Riddle University.  Founder of the Institute of Noetic Sciences. 
Endorser of and proposed Commissioner of a New Investigation into 9/11 as described in the New York City Ballot Initiative 11/08: "Petition to Create a NYC Independent Commission with Subpoena Power to Conduct a Comprehensive and Fact-Driven Investigation of All Relevant Aspects of the Tragic Events of September 11, 2001 and Issue a Report. 

WHEREAS, many New York City voters believe that there remain many unanswered questions critical to establishing the truth about all relevant events leading up to, during and subsequent to the tragic attacks occurring on September 11, 2001 (9/11), and 

WHEREAS, no prior investigation by any New York City agency or any other governmental entity has resulted in the citizens being provided with those critical answers or information necessary to establish the truth about those tragic events, ... 

An independent, temporary New York City commission (the Commission) is hereby created to conduct a comprehensive, factdriven investigation into the events that took place on 9/11, as well as to thoroughly examine related events before and after the attacks, including any activities attempting to hide, cover up, impede or obstruct any investigation into these 9/11 events, following wherever the facts may lead. The Commission shall publish one or more reports of their findings." 



* "We want truthful answers to question.   As Americans of conscience, we ask for four things: *
An immediate investigation by New York Attorney General Eliot Spitzer 
Immediate investigation in Congressional Hearings. 
Media attention to scrutinize and investigate the evidence. 
The formation of a truly independent citizens-based inquiry." http://www.911truth.org/article 

Patriots Question 9/11 - Responsible Criticism of the 9/11 Commission Report


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## Big_D (Jan 29, 2009)

eots said:


> what do they know about military intelligence ?



I really do not know but the following few people have excellent armed forces experience and they disagree with you.

Col. Ed Walby 
Capt. Bill Scott (Ret. USAF)
Lt. Herbert McConnell 
Tech. Sgt. Laura Bosco
Lt. Col. Skip Aldous (Ret.)

Debunking the 9/11 Myths: Special Report - Popular Mechanics



eots said:


> ...the papers are basically meaningless ...a real and full investigation of 911 under the terms set out in the petition is the only way the have definitive answers



Neither of those two people believe it was an inside job.  So what about the papers are meaningless?  You have been posting credentials of people who agree with and some who even do not.  Does that make every one of them meaningless?  As I have said, all those engineering experts from my last post agree that the fall of the towers were caused by the planes. They are the best engineering minds this planet has and they all disagree with you.


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## DiveCon (Jan 29, 2009)

Big_D said:


> eots said:
> 
> 
> > what do they know about military intelligence ?
> ...


to the troofers, unless you follow along with their mindless drivel, you are part of the conspiracy





the sparrow flies north at 0800


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## Modbert (Jan 29, 2009)

Not sure I'd trust a publication owned by the Hearst Corporation.


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## manu1959 (Jan 29, 2009)

Robert_Santurri said:


> Not sure I'd trust a publication owned by the Hearst Corporation.



if you were a hearst i bet you would be ok with it......but just for fun who do you trust....


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## eots (Jan 29, 2009)

Big_D said:


> eots said:
> 
> 
> > what do they know about military intelligence ?
> ...



so where are their statements ? their record of service ?


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## Big_D (Jan 29, 2009)

eots said:


> Big_D said:
> 
> 
> > eots said:
> ...



They took part in the popular mechanics article against the 9/11 conspiracy.


eots said:


> their record of service ?



I am not sure where to find their record of service.  Do you really think they lied about it? I was able to find a few links that proved validity for three of the five individuals:

In Real-time
www.1af.acc.af.mil/shared/media/document/AFD-060710-005.pdf
www.1af.acc.af.mil/shared/media/document/AFD-060710-009.pdf 
http://www.445aw.afrc.af.mil/shared/media/document/AFD-060831-077.pdf

Also, you avoided the question.  How were those two articles meaningless?  Those experts informed us what happened on 9/11 and since it is in opposition to you, it is now irrelevant.  So please inform me what is so meaningless about it.


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## Big_D (Jan 29, 2009)

Robert_Santurri said:


> Not sure I'd trust a publication owned by the Hearst Corporation.



It is not just the magazine that supports the official story of 9-11.  As you can see from the link below, there were MANY experts from a number of different fields that agree with it.

Debunking the 9/11 Myths: Special Report - Popular Mechanics


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## eots (Jan 29, 2009)

Big_D said:


> eots said:
> 
> 
> > Big_D said:
> ...


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## Big_D (Jan 29, 2009)

You sure cant answer that question can you?  That is *twice *in which I asked you to back up your to which I get nothing in reply.  You have done this in the past numerous times to avoid issues.  How are those two articles from post number 494 meaningless?  



eots said:


> sorry not good enough..took part is far to vauge...what are their personal statements the stand behind



I do not know of each individual statement they made.  They would have agreed to be part of the article if they believed 9/11 was an inside job.  They are in the sources page of the article.  Therefore, they certainly would have taken part in it.  However, this is a high official from our armed forces on the claim that flight 93 was shot down by Major Rick Gibney, "According to Air National Guard spokesman Master Sgt. David Somdahl, Gibney flew an F-16 that morning--but nowhere near Shanksville. He took off from Fargo, N.D., and flew to Bozeman, Mont., to pick up Ed Jacoby Jr., the director of the New York State Emergency Management Office. Gibney then flew Jacoby from Montana to Albany, N.Y., so Jacoby could coordinate 17,000 rescue workers engaged in the state's response to 9/11. Jacoby confirms the day's events. "I was in Big Sky for an emergency managers meeting. Someone called to say an F-16 was landing in Bozeman. From there we flew to Albany." Jacoby is outraged by the claim that Gibney shot down Flight 93. "I summarily dismiss that because Lt. Col. Gibney was with me at that time. It disgusts me to see this because the public is being misled. More than anything else it disgusts me because it brings up fears. It brings up hopes &#8212; it brings up all sorts of feelings, not only to the victims' families but to all the individuals throughout the country, and the world for that matter. I get angry at the misinformation out there."

Debunking the 9/11 Myths: Special Report - Popular Mechanics



eots said:


> any of them directors of    ? any receive presidential  honors ?..did any head research Dept's ?



I am not sure, I do not have access to their profiles.  They must be high officials in our armed forces or they wouldn't have been given the title that they were. 




eots said:


> ...any of them have 33 yrs experience as a military crash investigator and parts expert ?



Not sure of the years of experience, but here is one airline crash investigator's opinion:  "It's not unusual for an engine to move or tumble across the ground," says Michael K. Hynes, an airline accident expert who investigated the crash of TWA Flight 800 out of New York City in 1996. "When you have very high velocities, 500 mph or more," Hynes says, "you are talking about 700 to 800 ft. per second. For something to hit the ground with that kind of energy, it would only take a few seconds to bounce up and travel 300 yards."
Debunking the 9/11 Myths: Special Report - Popular Mechanics


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## eots (Jan 30, 2009)

*Major General Albert Stubblebine, U.S. Army (ret)  Former Commanding General of U.S. Army Intelligence and Security Command, 1981 - 1984.*  Also commanded the U.S. Armys Electronic Research and Development Command and the U.S. Armys Intelligence School and Center. Former head of Imagery Interpretation for Scientific and Technical Intelligence. 32-year Army career. 

*Member, Military Intelligence Hall of Fame*. 


Video 7/11/06: "One of my experiences in the Army was being in charge of the Armys Imagery Interpretation for Scientific and Technical Intelligence during the Cold War.  I measured pieces of Soviet equipment from photographs. It was my job. I look at the hole in the Pentagon and I look at the size of an airplane that was supposed to have hit the Pentagon. And I said, The plane does not fit in that hole. So what did hit the Pentagon? What hit it? Where is it? What's going on?" http://www.und 


Editor's note: For more information on the impact at the Pentagon, see Colonel Nelson, Commander Muga, Lt. Col. Kwiatkowski, Lt. Col. Latas, Major Rokke, Capt. Wittenberg, Capt. Davis, Barbara Honegger, April Gallop, Colonel Bunel, and Steve DeChiaro. 



*
Col. George Nelson, MBA, U.S. Air Force (ret)  Former U.S. Air Force aircraft accident investigator and airplane parts authority.  Graduate, U.S. Air Force War College.  34-year Air Force career*. 

Licensed commercial pilot.  Licensed airframe and powerplant mechanic. 
Essay: "In all my years of direct and indirect participation, I never witnessed nor even heard of an aircraft loss, where the wreckage was accessible, that prevented investigators from finding enough hard evidence to positively identify the make, model, and specific registration number of the aircraft -- and in most cases the precise cause of the accident. ... 

The government alleges that four wide-body airliners crashed on the morning of September 11 2001, resulting in the deaths of more than 3,000 human beings, yet not one piece of hard aircraft evidence has been produced in an attempt to positively identify any of the four aircraft. On the contrary, it seems only that all potential evidence was deliberately kept hidden from public view.  

With all the evidence readily available at the Pentagon crash site, any unbiased rational investigator could only conclude that a Boeing 757 did not fly into the Pentagon as alleged. Similarly, with all the evidence available at the Pennsylvania crash site, it was most doubtful that a passenger airliner caused the obvious hole in the ground and certainly not the Boeing 757 as alleged.  

As painful and heartbreaking as was the loss of innocent lives and the lingering health problems of thousands more, a* most troublesome and nightmarish probability remains that so many Americans appear to be involved in the most heinous conspiracy in our country's history."* Physics911, by Scientific Panel Investigating Nine-Eleven, 9/11/2001 


*Capt. Daniel Davis, U.S. Army  Former U.S. Army Air Defense Officer and NORAD Tac Director.  Decorated with the Bronze Star and the Soldiers Medal for bravery under fire and the Purple Heart for injuries sustained in Viet Nam.  *Also served in the Army Air Defense Command as Nike Missile Battery Control Officer for the Chicago-Milwaukee Defense Area.  Founder and former CEO of Turbine Technology Services Corp., a turbine (jet engine) services and maintenance company (15 years).  Former Senior Manager at General Electric Turbine (jet) Engine Division (15 years).  Private pilot.

Statement to this website 3/23/07: "As a former General Electric Turbine engineering specialist and manager and then CEO of a turbine engineering company, I can guarantee that none of the high tech, high temperature alloy engines on any of the four planes that crashed on 9/11 would be completely destroyed, burned, shattered or melted in any crash or fire.  Wrecked, yes, but not destroyed.  Where are all of those engines, particularly at the Pentagon?  If jet powered aircraft crashed on 9/11, those engines, plus wings and tail assembly, would be there. 

Additionally, in my experience as an officer in NORAD as a Tactical Director for the Chicago-Milwaukee Air Defense and as a current private pilot, there is no way that an aircraft on instrument flight plans (all commercial flights are IFR) would not be intercepted when they deviate from their flight plan, turn off their transponders, or stop communication with Air Traffic Control.  No way!  With very bad luck, perhaps one could slip by, but no there's no way all four of them could! 

Finally, going over the hill and highway and crashing into the Pentagon right at the wall/ground interface is nearly impossible for even a small slow single engine airplane and no way for a 757. Maybe the best pilot in the world could accomplish that but not these unskilled "terrorists". 

*Attempts to obscure facts by calling them a "Conspiracy Theory" does not change the truth.  It seems, "Something is rotten in the State." *


*
Lt. Col. Guy S. Razer, MS Aeronautical Science, U.S. Air Force (ret)  Retired U.S. Air Force command fighter pilot.  Former instructor; U.S. Air Force Fighter Weapons School and NATOs Tactical Leadership Program.  As an Air Force weapons effects expert was responsible for wartime tasking of most appropriate aircraft/munition for target destruction to include steel and concrete superstructures. * Former aeronautical structures flight test engineer with McDonnell Douglas, working on advanced DC-9 autopilot systems and DC-10 flight envelope expansion stress and flutter analysis.  Tactical aircraft flown: General Dynamics F-111 Aardvark fighter/bomber, McDonnell Douglas F-15E Strike Eagle, General Dynamics / Lockheed Martin F-16 Fighting Falcon, McDonnell Douglas F-18 Hornet, Boeing B-1 Bomber, MiG-29 (Russian fighter), and Su-22 (Russian fighter/bomber).  3,000+ fighter hours.  Combat time over Iraq.  20-year Air Force career. 
Statement to this website 3/25/07: "After 4+ years of research since retirement in 2002, I am 100% convinced that the attacks of September 11, 2001 were planned, organized, and committed by treasonous perpetrators that have infiltrated the highest levels of our government.  It is now time to take our country back. 

*The "collapse" of WTC Building 7 shows beyond any doubt that the demolitions were pre-planned*.  There is simply no way to demolish a 47-story building (on fire) over a coffee break.  It is also impossible to report the buildings collapse before it happened, as BBC News did, unless it was pre-planned.  Further damning evidence is Larry Silverstein's video taped confession in which he states "they made that decision to pull [WTC 7] and we watched the building collapse." [Editor's note: WTC Building 7 was 610 feet tall, 47 stories.  It would have been the tallest building in 33 states.  Although it was not hit by an airplane, it completely collapsed into a pile of rubble in less than 7 seconds at 5:20 p.m. on 9/11, seven hours after the collapses of the Twin Towers.  However, no mention of its collapse appears in the 9/11 Commission's "full and complete account of the circumstances surrounding the September 11, 2001 terrorist attacks."  Watch the collapse video here.  And six years after 9/11, the Federal government has yet to publish its promised final report that explains the cause of its collapse.] 

We cannot let the pursuit of justice fail.  Those of us in the military took an oath to "support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic".  Just because we have retired does not make that oath invalid, so it is not just our responsibility, it is our duty to expose the real perpetrators of 9/11 and bring them to justice, no matter how hard it is, how long it takes, or how much we have to suffer to do it. 

We owe it to those who have gone before us who executed that same oath, and who are doing the same thing in Iraq and Afghanistan right now.  Those of us who joined the military and faithfully executed orders that were given us had to trust our leaders.  *The violation and abuse of that trust is not only heinous, but ultimately the most accurate definition of treason!" *
*
Lt. Col. Robert Bowman, PhD, U.S. Air Force (ret)  Director of Advanced Space Programs Development under Presidents Ford and Carter.  U.S. Air Force fighter pilot with over 100 combat missions. (PhD in Aeronautics and Nuclear Engineering, Cal Tech).   Former Head of the Department of Aeronautical Engineering* and Assistant Dean at the U.S. Air Force Institute of Technology.  22-year Air Force career.  Also taught Mathematics and English at the University of Southern California, the University of Maryland, and Phillips University. 
Video 9/11/04: "A lot of these pieces of information, taken together, prove that the official story, the official conspiracy theory of 9/11 is a bunch of hogwash.  Its impossible.  Theres a second group of facts having to do with the cover up.  Taken together these things prove that high levels of our government dont want us to know what happened and whos responsible. 

Who gained from 9/11?  Who covered up crucial information about 9/11?  And who put out the patently false stories about 9/11 in the first place?  When you take those three things together, I think the case is pretty clear that its highly placed individuals in the administration with all roads passing through Dick Cheney. 

I think the very kindest thing that we can say about George W. Bush and all the people in the U.S. Government that have been involved in this massive cover-up, the very kindest thing we can say is that they were aware of impending attacks and let them happen.  Now some people will say thats much too kind, however even that is *high treason and conspiracy to commit murder*."  http://video.go


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## DiveCon (Jan 30, 2009)

eots said:


> *Major General Albert Stubblebine, U.S. Army (ret) &#8211; Former Commanding General of U.S. Army Intelligence and Security Command, 1981 - 1984.* Also commanded the U.S. Army&#8217;s Electronic Research and Development Command and the U.S. Army&#8217;s Intelligence School and Center. Former head of Imagery Interpretation for Scientific and Technical Intelligence. 32-year Army career.
> 
> *Member, Military Intelligence Hall of Fame*.
> 
> ...


and every bit of that has been debunked and explained
they're flat out WRONG


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## eots (Jan 30, 2009)

DiveCon said:


> eots said:
> 
> 
> > *Major General Albert Stubblebine, U.S. Army (ret)  Former Commanding General of U.S. Army Intelligence and Security Command, 1981 - 1984.* Also commanded the U.S. Armys Electronic Research and Development Command and the U.S. Armys Intelligence School and Center. Former head of Imagery Interpretation for Scientific and Technical Intelligence. 32-year Army career.
> ...



for those with the limited capacity's that popular mechanics caters to  perhaps it has
but I am  the rest of us will require a higher standard than that


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## DiveCon (Jan 30, 2009)

eots said:


> DiveCon said:
> 
> 
> > eots said:
> ...


its been debunked for anyone that has an IQ higher than a carrot
for those under, maybe not


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## eots (Jan 30, 2009)

*you mean like this guy*

*
Lt. Col. Guy S. Razer, MS Aeronautical Science, U.S. Air Force (ret) &#8211; Retired U.S. Air Force command fighter pilot.  Former instructor; U.S. Air Force Fighter Weapons School and NATO&#8217;s Tactical Leadership Program.  As an Air Force weapons effects expert was responsible for wartime tasking of most appropriate aircraft/munition for target destruction to include steel and concrete superstructures.*  Former aeronautical structures flight test engineer with McDonnell Douglas, working on advanced DC-9 autopilot systems and DC-10 flight envelope expansion stress and flutter analysis.  Tactical aircraft flown: General Dynamics F-111 Aardvark fighter/bomber, McDonnell Douglas F-15E Strike Eagle, General Dynamics / Lockheed Martin F-16 Fighting Falcon, McDonnell Douglas F-18 Hornet, Boeing B-1 Bomber, MiG-29 (Russian fighter), and Su-22 (Russian fighter/bomber).  3,000+ fighter hours.  Combat time over Iraq.  20-year Air Force career. 





Statement to this website 3/25/07: "After 4+ years of research since retirement in 2002, I am 100% convinced that the attacks of September 11, 2001 were planned, organized, and committed by treasonous perpetrators that have infiltrated the highest levels of our government.  It is now time to take our country back. 

The "collapse" of WTC Building 7 shows beyond any doubt that the demolitions were pre-planned.  There is simply no way to demolish a 47-story building (on fire) over a coffee break.  It is also impossible to report the building&#8217;s collapse before it happened, as BBC News did, unless it was pre-planned.  Further damning evidence is Larry Silverstein's video taped confession in which he states "they made that decision to pull [WTC 7] and we watched the building collapse." [Editor's note: WTC Building 7 was 610 feet tall, 47 stories.  It would have been the tallest building in 33 states.  Although it was not hit by an airplane, it completely collapsed into a pile of rubble in less than 7 seconds at 5:20 p.m. on 9/11, seven hours after the collapses of the Twin Towers.  However, no mention of its collapse appears in the 9/11 Commission's "full and complete account of the circumstances surrounding the September 11, 2001 terrorist attacks."  Watch the collapse video here.  And six years after 9/11, the Federal government has yet to publish its promised final report that explains the cause of its collapse.] 

We cannot let the pursuit of justice fail.  Those of us in the military took an oath to "support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic".  Just because we have retired does not make that oath invalid, so it is not just our responsibility, it is our duty to expose the real perpetrators of 9/11 and bring them to justice, no matter how hard it is, how long it takes, or how much we have to suffer to do it. 

We owe it to those who have gone before us who executed that same oath, and who are doing the same thing in Iraq and Afghanistan right now.  Those of us who joined the military and faithfully executed orders that were given us had to trust our leaders.  The violation and abuse of that trust is not only heinous, but ultimately the most accurate definition of treason!" 


Member: Scholars for 9/11 Truth and Justice   Association Statement: "Scholars for 9/11 Truth and Justice is a non-partisan organization consisting of independent researchers and activists engaged in uncovering the true nature of the September 11, 2001 attacks." 


Member: Pilots for 9/11 Truth  Association Statement: "Pilots for 9/11 Truth is an organization of aviation professionals and pilots throughout the globe that have gathered together for one purpose. We are committed to seeking the truth surrounding the events of the 11th of September 2001. Our main focus concentrates on the four flights, maneuvers performed and the reported pilots. We do not offer theory or point blame. However, we are focused on determining the truth of that fateful day since the United States Government doesn't seem to be very forthcoming with answers." 


Signatory: Petition requesting a reinvestigation of 9/11, signed by more than 500 Architects and Engineers: 

"On Behalf of the People of the United States of America, the undersigned Architects and Engineers for 9/11 Truth and affiliates  hereby petition for, and demand, a truly independent investigation with subpoena power in order to uncover the full truth surrounding the events of 9/11/01 - specifically the collapse of the World Trade Center Towers and Building 7.  We believe that there is sufficient doubt about the official story and therefore that the 9/11 investigation must be re-opened and must include a full inquiry into the possible use of explosives that may have been the actual cause behind the destruction of the World Trade Center Towers and WTC Building 7." Sign the Petition 


Website: MySpace.com - Guy - 51 - Male - Las Vegas, Isle Of Man - www.myspace.com/supereagle69 

Patriots Question 9/11 - Responsible Criticism of the 9/11 Commission Report


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## DiveCon (Jan 30, 2009)

yes, if he actually believees the bullshit you do
again, i dont accept that this guy really DOES

btw, all the heisman nominees this past year had myspace pages that were not theirs
other people made them and claimed they were them


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## Big_D (Jan 30, 2009)

eots said:


> *Major General Albert Stubblebine, U.S. Army (ret) &#8211; Former Commanding General of U.S. Army Intelligence and Security Command, 1981 - 1984.*  Also commanded the U.S. Army&#8217;s Electronic Research and Development Command and the U.S. Army&#8217;s Intelligence School and Center. Former head of Imagery Interpretation for Scientific and Technical Intelligence. 32-year Army career.
> 
> *Member, Military Intelligence Hall of Fame*.
> 
> ...



I am not sure why you put so much credibility in their statements as some of those people are not even engineers.  Some of them were just pilots. 

Here is one paper on why the WTC building collapsed:
http://www.civil.northwestern.edu/people/bazant/PDFs/Papers/405.pdf
-Zden&#283;k P. Ba&#382;ant-  Engineer Professor at Northwestern

his credentials: 
"Engineer Zden&#283;k P. Ba&#382;ant is best known as a *world leader in scaling research in solid mechanics* (1&#8211;6). His research focuses on the effect of structure size on structural strength as it relates to the failure behavior of the structure. He also has made outstanding advances in structural stability (7), fracture mechanics (8), the micromechanics of material damage (8&#8211;10), concrete creep (11&#8211;13), and probabilistic mechanics (6, 8, 14). *He was elected to the National Academy of Engineering in 1996 and to the National Academy of Sciences in 2002, 1 of only 153 members with such a dual appointment.* In his Inaugural Article (1), published in this issue of PNAS, Ba&#382;ant presents a simple justification of the scaling laws for the fracture of quasibrittle materials such as concrete, rock, fiber composites, and sea ice."
http://www.pnas.org/content/101/37/13397.full.pdf
Inaugural Article: Biography of Zden&#x0011b;k P. Ba&#x0017e;ant
Civil and Environmental Engineering - Faculty Profile - Zdenek Bazant


"That impact was too much, and no building could possibly withstand such weight, so floor after floor came down in what we call progressive collapse"
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2001/09/12/MN101866.DTL&hw=STRUCTURAL&sn=025&sc=505
-Hassan Astaneh
His Creditentials: 
"CEE professor Hassan Astaneh has been teaching at *Berkeley *since 1986. He has taught classes on the design of steel structures and advanced steel design engineering mechanics-static. He is an expert in the effects of disasters on steel structures and has testified before Congress on how the structural integrity of the World Trade Center reacted to the terrorist attack."
Engineering News, Date

You might have to read the full article to understand the following quote:
""When that part is wiped out, the structure comes down," Irfanoglu said. "We design structures with some extra capacity to cover some uncertainties, but we never anticipate such heavy demand coming from an aircraft impact. If the columns were distributed, maybe, the fire could not take them out so easily."
Purdue study supports WTC collapse findings - USATODAY.com

Dr. Ayhan Irfanoglu- Engineering professor at *Purdue*
Amazing credentials: 
Ayhan Irfanoglu - Purdue University

Here is a paper on 9/11 by the 2003 Forensic engineer of the year Paul F. Mlakar:
http://mceer.buffalo.edu/meetings/AEI/presentations/06Mlakar-paper.pdf


Here is a paper by the 2002 Forensic engineer of the year: 
Gene Corley | World news | The Guardian

Here is proof that they won that award:
American Society of Civil Engineers (ASCE)
*
There you go, the 2002 and 2003 forensic engineer of the year winner believes 9/11 was caused by terrorists. *

Those people are the top engineering experts that teach at the best engineering schools in the world.  They clearly know what they are talking about.


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## eots (Jan 30, 2009)

DiveCon said:


> yes, if he actually believees the bullshit you do
> again, i dont accept that this guy really DOES
> 
> btw, all the heisman nominees this past year had myspace pages that were not theirs
> other people made them and claimed they were them



and you have just proved how much in denial you are such a crazy unfounded  and irrational conspiracy theory...what a nut case


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## DiveCon (Jan 30, 2009)

eots said:


> DiveCon said:
> 
> 
> > yes, if he actually believees the bullshit you do
> ...


and this is why i think you are fucking NUTS
THERE WAS NO denial there at all
i dont KNOW if he believes what you do or not and if he does, hes as fucking nuts as you are
what i posted are the FACTS and reality of the internet
ANYONE can make a page and claim all kindas of bullshit
case in point, alex jones
as to him being sued, the person suing would need to prove damages, and since he has ZERO credibility and few people would beleive anything that fucked up asshole says, it would be impossible to prove you were actually damaged by him
you are a fucking moron if you dont think there are false and spoof pages all over the fucking internet


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## eots (Jan 30, 2009)

Big_D said:


> eots said:
> 
> 
> > *Major General Albert Stubblebine, U.S. Army (ret)  Former Commanding General of U.S. Army Intelligence and Security Command, 1981 - 1984.*  Also commanded the U.S. Armys Electronic Research and Development Command and the U.S. Armys Intelligence School and Center. Former head of Imagery Interpretation for Scientific and Technical Intelligence. 32-year Army career.
> ...



so this award was not from the president or nasa....and according to dive con ...he might not even exist !....bot seriuosly...he is in no position to say terrorist did it is he...at best he can say he believes the plane impact and fire caused the collapse ..he has no expertise in terrorism or Intel or aircraft does he... and all this proves in light of the experts I have posted is ...experts disagree and a full peer review inquiry under the terms of the petition sited by Edgar Mitchell is essential to  determining the facts of 911


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## Godboy (Jan 30, 2009)

I think its funny how eots continues to cut and paste nonsense from his wacko web sites. I dont know about the rest of you, but the moment i see one of his cut and paste jobs, i simply move on to the next post. God hes a fucking retard. 

Crazy AND stupid its a terrible combination.


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## eots (Jan 30, 2009)

[





> QUOTE=DiveCon;1019145]
> 
> 
> 
> ...



YOUR SO SIMPLY MINDED....this site has been up for years in has been mentioned on national televisin..the participants have repeated the claims in independent film
so if you want tomake such a bizzare conspiracy theory...prove it





> case in point, alex jones
> as to him being sued, the person suing would need to prove damages, and since he has ZERO credibility and few people would beleive anything that fucked up asshole says, it would be impossible to prove you were actually damaged by him



again a ridiculous statement with no bases in reality...and Again you cant seem to grasp the difference between editorial opinion and giving direct quotes from a person using their service record and image...a child could grasp this reality...



> you are a fucking moron if you dont think there are false and spoof pages all over the fucking internet


[/QUOTE]

and your a ignorant fool if you cant determine the difference...which you clearly can not


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## eots (Jan 30, 2009)

Godboy said:


> I think its funny how eots continues to cut and paste nonsense from his wacko web sites. I dont know about the rest of you, but the moment i see one of his cut and paste jobs, i simply move on to the next post. God hes a fucking retard.
> 
> Crazy AND stupid its a terrible combination.



you would know goatboy...so ya please move ony


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## Godboy (Jan 30, 2009)

The part i love most is eots gets so frustrated that the rest of the world doesnt see it his way. He will never get it, no matter how much proof you show him, because hes insane of course. I also find his claim that the steel structure of the twin towers couldnt have softened to be particularly hilarious, especially given the fact that every member of the science community disagrees with him. What an idiot, lol.


----------



## eots (Jan 30, 2009)

> Godboy said:
> 
> 
> > The part i love most is eots gets so frustrated that the rest of the world doesnt see it his way.
> ...



this statement has no basis in fact ..I have proven that there are many credible  individuals that question 911...ome of whom is Kevin Ryan of underwriters who tested the steel from the wtc...and many top military experts from a wide range pf disiuplines..you just can not deal with that reality


----------



## Godboy (Jan 30, 2009)

> I have proven that there are many credible individuals that question 911...



No, you havent. The only thing youve done is post garbage from conspiracy websites. You obviously dont understand what real proof is, nor do you have an understanding of the kinds of reliable places where a person would find such proof. You dont get it and you will never get it eots, because you arent a sane person.


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## DiveCon (Jan 30, 2009)

eots said:


> [
> 
> 
> 
> ...



and your a ignorant fool if you cant determine the difference...which you clearly can not[/QUOTE]
you dumbass, i didnt call it a conspiracy you idiot
lol
you did
alex jones is a fucking LIAR and you are the fucking MORON that believes his and his symps lies


----------



## eots (Jan 30, 2009)

DiveCon said:


> eots said:
> 
> 
> > [
> ...



what you speak of by definition is a conspiracy..you are simply  not of the intellectual ability to be able to grasp that fact





> alex jones is a fucking LIAR and you are the fucking MORON that believes his and his symps lies


[/QUOTE]

Alex Jones ?..the information and statements posted of top level military experts have nothing to do with Alex Jones ..they speak for them self


----------



## eots (Jan 30, 2009)

Godboy said:


> > I have proven that there are many credible individuals that question 911...
> 
> 
> 
> No, you havent. The only thing youve done is post garbage from conspiracy websites. You obviously dont understand what real proof is, nor do you have an understanding of the kinds of reliable places where a person would find such proof. You dont get it and you will never get it eots, because you arent a sane person.



so then in your opinion the military personal on the patriots site and most of the signatory's of the petition are insane...or are you a divecon conspiracy theorist that believes the petition the statements the appearances in documentary film are all staged and this total slanderous misrepresentation of top level military personal has gone on unabated for years with out a single action being taken by those who's reputations careers and honored service has been violated ?...now thats some conspiracy theory...any links ?????


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## Big_D (Jan 30, 2009)

eots said:


> Big_D said:
> 
> 
> > I am not sure why you put so much credibility in their statements as some of those peole are not even engineers.  Some of them was just pilots.
> ...



The forensic engineer of the year award is from the American society of engineers.  This clearly proves he is one of the top in this field.  Their articles showed how the planes caused the fall of the towers and not demolition.



eots said:


> and according to dive con ...he might not even exist !....



Divecon was obviously stating that your people might not exist because there is no documentation of them beyond the conspirator's website.  However, my experts have plenty of documentation.



eots said:


> bot seriuosly...he is in no position to say terrorist did it is he...



Why wouldn't he be?  From reading his article, it shows that the planes caused the collapsed, not demolition.



eots said:


> he has no expertise in terrorism or Intel or aircraft does he...



I really don't know.  How would this be relevant?  



eots said:


> and all this proves in light of the experts I have posted is ...experts disagree and a full peer review inquiry under the terms of the petition sited by Edgar Mitchell is essential to  determining the facts of 911



Clearly the majority of the engineering experts agree with the true story.  There is no question among them. If you take a look at post number 494 of this thread, the vast majority of engineers agree with the true story.


----------



## DiveCon (Jan 30, 2009)

Big_D said:


> Divecon was obviously stating that your people might not exist because there is no documentation of them beyond the conspirator's website. However, my experts have plenty of documentation.


 Eots doesnt have the brain capacity to understand that simple concept


----------



## Big_D (Jan 30, 2009)

DiveCon said:


> Big_D said:
> 
> 
> > Divecon was obviously stating that your people might not exist because there is no documentation of them beyond the conspirator's website. However, my experts have plenty of documentation.
> ...



The thing I just cannot see is how anyone can believe it was an inside job if nobody from the WTC buildings saw any proof of demolition.  It just cannot add up.


----------



## DiveCon (Jan 30, 2009)

Big_D said:


> DiveCon said:
> 
> 
> > Big_D said:
> ...


and those with explosive demolition experience have all said that for it to have been done by explosives it would have had far more windows exploding out on the levels where the explosives would have had to have been placed
the whole floor level
thats why on controled demolitions they remove the windows


----------



## eots (Jan 30, 2009)

[





> QUOTE=Big_D;1019512]
> 
> 
> 
> ...





> The forensic engineer of the year award is from the American society of engineers.  This clearly proves he is one of the top in this field.  Their articles showed how the planes caused the fall of the towers and not demolition.



but clearly is not equal to presidential honors or military hall of fame or NASA



> Divecon was obviously stating that your people might not exist because there is no documentation of them beyond the conspirator's website.  However, my experts have plenty of documentation.



thats absurd the only documentation you provide is from the INTERNET which according to dive con unless its featured on fox or CNN can be fake...many of these individuals also appear in interview in many f the films I have posted...some are high profile enough to be considered public figures





eots said:


> he has no expertise in terrorism or Intel or aircraft does he...





> I really don't know.  How would this be relevant?



then your really missing the whole picture






eots said:


> and all this proves in light of the experts I have posted is ...experts disagree and a full peer review inquiry under the terms of the petition sited by Edgar Mitchell is essential to  determining the facts of 911





> Clearly the majority of the engineering experts agree with the true story.  There is no question among them. If you take a look at post number 494 of this thread, the vast majority of engineers agree with the true story




that is simply untrue and the majority have often been wrong... regardless  without release of all classified evidence media scrutiny ..cross examination ..eyewittness testomony..any paper can only be based on the information made available and are therefore incomplete and inadequate


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## eots (Jan 30, 2009)

DiveCon said:


> Big_D said:
> 
> 
> > Divecon was obviously stating that your people might not exist because there is no documentation of them beyond the conspirator's website. However, my experts have plenty of documentation.
> ...



divcon is clearly living in a dreamland as are you if you believe this web site and statements of such high ranking military personal can exist and remain up for years collect donations and use the images of honored American service men in both print and in films viewed by hundreds of thousands....truly not connected with reality ...beside your anecdotal storys can you provide any example of this,, links please


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## DiveCon (Jan 30, 2009)

eots said:


> DiveCon said:
> 
> 
> > Big_D said:
> ...


you are the one not living in reality
of course such a website could exist for YEARS 
you are so totally clueless of the realities of the internet


----------



## DiveCon (Jan 30, 2009)

eots said:


> DiveCon said:
> 
> 
> > Big_D said:
> ...


{Eots translation}

Its on the internets, it MUST be true

{fools translation}
they printed it in the newspaper, it MUST be true


----------



## eots (Jan 30, 2009)

DiveCon said:


> eots said:
> 
> 
> > DiveCon said:
> ...



translation ..DIVCON IS IN COMPLETE DENIAL..and needs to make up statements to address rather than address the ones  actually made ...a web site and independent film can not attribute statements to top level military personal and falsely use their image.. and honored service .. collect donations ..and submit petitions in their good names unabated...you lunatic


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## DiveCon (Jan 30, 2009)

eots said:


> DiveCon said:
> 
> 
> > eots said:
> ...


you believe the shit you do, and you call ME the lunatic?


too fuckin funny


----------



## eots (Jan 30, 2009)

if you believe the conspiracy you speak of is what is occurring with the Patriots site you are indeed a loon....so do you ?


----------



## DiveCon (Jan 30, 2009)

eots said:


> if you believe the conspiracy you speak of is what is occurring with the Patriots site you are indeed a loon....so do you ?


its not a conspiracy to state that people put up total BULLSHIT on the internet


----------



## eots (Jan 30, 2009)

DiveCon said:


> eots said:
> 
> 
> > if you believe the conspiracy you speak of is what is occurring with the Patriots site you are indeed a loon....so do you ?
> ...



no  but it is indeed a conspiracy to use false statements of top level military personal in print and film with there likeness... submit petitions and collect donations...a huge conspiracy..you should report this if you believe it to be true..it is a criminal act


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## DiveCon (Jan 30, 2009)

eots said:


> DiveCon said:
> 
> 
> > eots said:
> ...


no, its a fucking JOKE you moron
LOL
no one gives those site any credibility
other than maybe the 4.7% of the NUTTERS like you


----------



## DiveCon (Jan 30, 2009)

btw, everything on the internets is SOOOOO true


Eotsisgay&#8217;s Blog


----------



## eots (Jan 30, 2009)

it would be very clear to any rational and honest mind... you cant not address my statement and are avoiding it with your mindless responses...


----------



## eots (Jan 30, 2009)

DiveCon said:


> btw, everything on the internets is SOOOOO true
> 
> 
> Eotsisgay&#8217;s Blog



you do understand the difference don't you ...you weak little fagot ...you did not use my name ,,you did not use my image..you did not attribute quotes directly to me..you have not attempted to collect donations off of this misrepesentation...oh what am  I  thinking... this is way beyond your understanding....


----------



## DiveCon (Jan 30, 2009)

eots said:


> DiveCon said:
> 
> 
> > btw, everything on the internets is SOOOOO true
> ...


ROFLMAO


dude, it happens


----------



## Godboy (Jan 31, 2009)

> thats absurd the only documentation you provide is from the INTERNET which according to dive con unless its featured on fox or CNN can be fake...many of these individuals also appear in interview in many f the films I have posted...some are high profile enough to be considered public figures



Eots, heres the thing, im sure youve found that same information in about a thousand different places, so you must be thinking its true, but its a mistake to just assume its true because its so widely spread. A prime example of this is racist websites. They all circulate the exact same stuff around, and this stuff leaks out and gets into other less obvious racist sites. The bottom line is, unless you can find information from legitimate sites to back up what they are saying, you cant assume its true, and often its not.

In your situation, all the information and links you provide, come from liberal or conspiracy websites. If you want to shut people up, you need to show them facts that they cant deny. Thats how you win debates online like this. Find something on CNN.com that backs up what you claim, or maybe something from the New York Times or the Washington Post. If theres any truth to your information, surely you must be able to recognize that the most talented investigative journalists in the world would know about it and cover it. 

What a great weapon you would have, if you simply backed up your stories with links to sites people couldnt argue with. Of course, if they do argue with the sites you use, then obviously you arent using what would be considered legitimate sites, in the eyes of the masses.


----------



## DiveCon (Jan 31, 2009)

Godboy said:


> > thats absurd the only documentation you provide is from the INTERNET which according to dive con unless its featured on fox or CNN can be fake...many of these individuals also appear in interview in many f the films I have posted...some are high profile enough to be considered public figures
> 
> 
> 
> ...


whats amazing is he assumes these people are "high profile" yet the ONLY place you can find info for them are on the nutter troofer sites
when he posts a link to someones page thats NOT on a troofer site, it says NOTHING to back up what he said
and as for Ed Mitchell, someone that i KNOW exists, the guy disabled his contact page on his own site
that should say something
someone was obviously, abusing that feature to the point it HAD to be disabled


----------



## Big_D (Jan 31, 2009)

eots said:


> many are engineers none *was *just pilots but are pilots with engineering digress  or directly invoked in NORAD or Air defense and deserving of a great deal of credibility



From the info that was posted there was at least one individual without any special degrees.  I not know how pilots with engineering degrees are more credible in this field than the top engineering professors in the world.



eots said:


> but clearly is not equal to presidential honors or military hall of fame or NASA



Why wouldn't it?  How is an armed forces member with presidential honor or in the military hall of fame more credible than the 2002 and 2003 forensic engineer of the year?  Nobody would know why the towers fell better than an engineer and as I proved, I have the top engineering professors in the world on my side.  Also, the popular mechanics article had people from NASA.



eots said:


> thats absurd the only documentation you provide is from the INTERNET which according to dive con unless its featured on fox or CNN can be fake...many of these individuals also appear in interview in many f the films I have posted...some are high profile enough to be considered public figures




You're right.  Info from CNN can be fake.  However, wouldn't you think that info from CNN would be more credible than a website?  Wouldn't you also admit that it is odd that one some of the people you post are ONLY on the conspiracy websites?  When I do a Google search for some of them I can only find information for them on that site.  However, if you would do a search for my experts you see their biographies on them, infomation about them on their universities websites, and press releases about them.  



eots said:


> then your really missing the whole picture



How am I?  I do not know how someone with expertise in terrorism or Intel would the specific on how a building would collapse.




eots said:


> and all this proves in light of the experts I have posted is ...experts disagree and a full peer review inquiry under the terms of the petition sited by Edgar Mitchell is essential to  determining the facts of 911
> 
> 
> 
> ...



First of all, I *NEVER* found any information stating that Edgar Mitchell wants a new investigation because there might be a chance our govt was behind it.  There are MANY reasons why someone would want a new investigation.  It doesn't necessarily mean it is b/c he agrees with you.  Next, as the demolition expert said If 9/11 was an inside job there would have been miles and miles of cables/cords from the demolition in the debris. People would be easily able to see the explosives at ground zero and yet nobody has found any.  He also said that walls would have had to torn down and again nobody has said they saw this either.  Also, the WTC buildings had 30 million people visiting it every year and 55,000 employees.  However, not just one of these people has came forward with evidence that the place was loaded with explosives.  The world record for a controlled demolition took 24 days to plant the explosives and they didn't have to worry about hiding anything.  Therefore, it must have taken them months if not years to setup.  Again, in this amount of time none of the 30 million visitors or 55,000 employees have came forward with evidence of explosives were planted.


----------



## Mr. Jones (Jan 31, 2009)

You guys fail to understand that the major media outlets that you trust are the ones that passed on false information concerning 9-11, or do not always ask the hard questions, or omit valuable information in reporting the news. That is why so many turn to alternative news sources. 
A person who sits in front of Murdochs Fox News or CNN is simply being brainwashed with propaganda. If a person intends to be informed, he must turn to foreign news broadcasts, to Internet sites, to foreign newspapers available on the Internet, or to alternative newspapers. Independent reporting disappeared when Clinton allowed Murdoch and a small handful of moguls to concentrate the American media in a few corporate hands. That was the end of American reporting.
Journalists disappeared from management positions and were replaced by corporate advertising executives with the goal not to offend any source of advertising revenue, and certainly not to offend the government, which controls the broadcast licenses . Today, reporters write the stories that their masters want to hear, or they are out. And the editors make csure that no uncomfortable information reaches the public. The function of the MSM is to sell products and to brainwash the audience for the government and interest groups. By subscribing to it, you support your own brainwashing. 
There are 5 major corporations that control the news we see today, and the heads of those corporations are all in bed with the government, they are the manipulators of public opinion.

_" ... the media in the United States effectively represents the interests of corporate America, and ... the media elite are the watchdogs of what constitutes acceptable ideological messages, the parameters of news and information content, and the general use of media resources.
Peter Phillips, Project Censored, 1998_


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## Mr. Jones (Jan 31, 2009)

Big_D said:


> First of all, I *NEVER* found any information stating that Edgar Mitchell wants a new investigation because there might be a chance our govt was behind it.  There are MANY reasons why someone would want a new investigation.  It doesn't necessarily mean it is b/c he agrees with you.  Next, as the demolition expert said If 9/11 was an inside job there would have been miles and miles of cables/cords from the demolition in the debris. People would be easily able to see the explosives at ground zero and yet nobody has found any.  He also said that walls would have had to torn down and again nobody has said they saw this either.  Also, the WTC buildings had 30 million people visiting it every year and 55,000 employees.  However, not just one of these people has came forward with evidence that the place was loaded with explosives.  The world record for a controlled demolition took 24 days to plant the explosives and they didn't have to worry about hiding anything.  Therefore, it must have taken them months if not years to setup.  Again, in this amount of time none of the 30 million visitors or 55,000 employees have came forward with evidence of explosives were planted.


 Dude I tried to explain some of those concerns about the cables/cords. 
*A letter to Steven Jones cocerning his studies of the dust collected at ground zero-*
_"....Cutter charges are indeed an important part of the demolition process, but they are not, by far and away, the most abundant explosive charge used in terms of shear volume in a demolition.
The cutter charges you speak of do produce the type of evidence that you have pointed out several times and you have proven, in my opinion, their presence in the demolition of the World Trade Centers.
However, you mentioned in one of your lectures about the iron-rich spheres, that you and others have found many spheres of varying composition. I would like to suggest one possible explanation for that.
*Detonating cord. *
Your work explaining how the core and exterior columns were moved out of the way of the falling debris by the use of &#8220;cutter charges&#8221; like Thermite or Thermate has been exceptional. However, in the demolition industry, these types of charges are not used to remove floor mass or concrete firewalls.
That work is accomplished by the detonating cord itself.
This cord, though used as a fuse to ignite the cutter charges and accurately link them together in a controlled demolition, is also a *high explosive in and of itself.*
&#8220;As a timing mechanism, detonation cord detonates at a very reliable rate (about 7000 - 8000 m/s), enabling engineers to control the pattern in which charges are detonated. This is particularly useful for demolitions, when structural elements need to be destroyed in a specific order to control the collapse of a building.&#8221; Wiki
*&#8220;Cordtex&#8221; and &#8220;Primacord&#8221;* are the most commonly used detonation cords. Primaline, a heavier yield Primacord, has a hard plastic casing and looks very similar to a heavy gage commercial wiring.
(I remember that one of the witnesses who observed the workers who came in during the weekend of the &#8220;power-down&#8221; at the World Trade Centers say that he saw many of them moving large spools of what looked like &#8220;brightly colored cable&#8221;. Primaline, like most commercial explosives, uses bright colors to differentiate between the cords grain loads.)
?????????????
You see, this is the vehicle they use to break up the vast amounts of concrete flooring systems and turn them virtually into dust and at the same time. Also, these charges (for they are explosive charges themselves) are used simultaneously to break-up the metal floor pans under the concrete as well as the metal trusses that hold them up.
The heavier cord burns* extremely hot *and they use some of these in commercial demo applications to remove large sections of pipe (which means they will in fact, cut through certain gages of steel).
So here we have a possible avenue of research; since we know that the cutter charges are not used to break up the masses of concrete flooring, and we know that there are different chemical traces in the iron-rich micro-spheres that you have found in the WTC dust, it would seem likely that, as is standard practice in professional demolitions, some other charge was used. I suggest that you look into the residual trace element finger-prints of detonator cords such as Primline.
The presence of this product would go a long way to explain the different compositions of the micro-spheres (the chemical make-up of the Primaline is different than that of the Thermite and Themate cutter charges, and the metals that were affected by these charges would be different than that of the steel columns.)"_
http://files.meetup.com/1148/Open Letter to Steve Jones.txt

http://www.answers.com/topic/detonating-cord

Why would the demolition expert you got your information from not explain about this  detonating cord that is commonly used in the industry?? Your source is not credible.


----------



## eots (Jan 31, 2009)

> Godboy said:
> 
> 
> > > thats absurd the only documentation you provide is from the INTERNET which according to dive con unless its featured on fox or CNN can be fake...many of these individuals also appear in interview in many f the films I have posted...some are high profile enough to be considered public figures
> ...


----------



## eots (Jan 31, 2009)

DiveCon said:


> Godboy said:
> 
> 
> > > thats absurd the only documentation you provide is from the INTERNET which according to dive con unless its featured on fox or CNN can be fake...many of these individuals also appear in interview in many f the films I have posted...some are high profile enough to be considered public figures
> ...



.


ya morons like you...he disables his comment page according to the dive con conspiracy theory because he is aware of the abuse of his image...but takes no action to stop the misrepresentation....ok


----------



## eots (Jan 31, 2009)

*Major General Albert Stubblebine, U.S. Army (ret) &#8211; Former Commanding General of U.S. Army Intelligence and Security Command, 1981 - 1984.  Also commanded the U.S. Army&#8217;s Electronic Research and Development Command and the U.S. Army&#8217;s Intelligence School and Center. Former head of Imagery Interpretation for Scientific and Technical Intelligence. 32-year Army career. 

Member, Military Intelligence Hall of Fame. 
Video 7/11/06: "One of my experiences in the* Army was being in charge of the Army&#8217;s Imagery Interpretation for Scientific and Technical Intelligence during the Cold War.  I measured pieces of Soviet equipment from photographs. It was my job. I look at the hole in the Pentagon and I look at the size of an airplane that was supposed to have hit the Pentagon. And I said, &#8216;The plane does not fit in that hole&#8217;. So what did hit the Pentagon? What hit it? Where is it? What's going on?" http://www.und 

[ame]http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=-9CNToaP2Ew[/ame]

*Lt. Col. Robert Bowman, PhD, U.S. Air Force (ret) &#8211; Director of Advanced Space Programs Development under Presidents Ford and Carter.  U.S. Air Force fighter pilot with over 100 combat missions. (PhD in Aeronautics and Nuclear Engineering, Cal Tech).   Former Head of the Department of Aeronautical Engineering and Assistant Dean at the U.S. Air Force Institute of Technology.  22-year Air Force career.  Also taught Mathematics *and English at the University of Southern California, the University of Maryland, and Phillips University. [/B]



Video 9/11/04: "A lot of these pieces of information, taken together, prove that the official story, the official conspiracy theory of 9/11 is a bunch of hogwash.  It&#8217;s impossible. &#8230; There&#8217;s a second group of facts having to do with the cover up. &#8230; Taken together these things prove that high levels of our government don&#8217;t want us to know what happened and who&#8217;s responsible.&#8230; 

Who gained from 9/11?  Who covered up crucial information about 9/11?  And who put out the patently false stories about 9/11 in the first place?  When you take those three things together, I think the case is pretty clear that it&#8217;s highly placed individuals in the administration with all roads passing through Dick Cheney. 

I think the very kindest thing that we can say about George W. Bush and all the people in the U.S. Government that have been involved in this massive cover-up, the very kindest thing we can say is that they were aware of impending attacks and let them happen.  Now some people will say that&#8217;s much too kind, however even that is high treason and conspiracy to commit murder."  http://video.go 

[ame=http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=thm-Kusrmcw]YouTube - LT. Col. Robert Bowman at American Scholars Symposium pt 1[/ame]


*Morgan Reynolds, PhD &#8211; Chief Economist, U.S. Department of Labor under George W. Bush 2001 - 2002.  Former Director of the Criminal Justice Center at the National Center for Policy Analysis.  Professor Emeritus, Economics, Texas A&M University. *

Contributing author to 9/11 and American Empire (Vol I) &#8211; Intellectuals Speak Out (2006). 
Video interview with Alex Jones 6/2/06: "I first began to suspect that 9/11 was in inside job when the Bush-Cheney Administration invaded Iraq. &#8230; We can prove that the government&#8217;s story is false."  http://video.goo 


Essay 6/9/05: "It is hard to exaggerate the importance of a scientific debate over the cause(s) of the collapse of the twin towers [each 1300+ feet tall, 110 stories] and building 7. If the official wisdom on the collapses is wrong, as I believe it is, then policy based on such erroneous engineering analysis is not likely [to] prove to be sound."  http://www.l...   


[ame=http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=C4mI4BHRdMQ]YouTube - Morgan Reynolds - Prosecuting the 9/11 Perps - Pt 1[/ame]


----------



## Big_D (Jan 31, 2009)

Mr. Jones said:


> Big_D said:
> 
> 
> > First of all, I *NEVER* found any information stating that Edgar Mitchell wants a new investigation because there might be a chance our govt was behind it.  There are MANY reasons why someone would want a new investigation.  It doesn't necessarily mean it is b/c he agrees with you.  Next, as the demolition expert said If 9/11 was an inside job there would have been miles and miles of cables/cords from the demolition in the debris. People would be easily able to see the explosives at ground zero and yet nobody has found any.  He also said that walls would have had to torn down and again nobody has said they saw this either.  Also, the WTC buildings had 30 million people visiting it every year and 55,000 employees.  However, not just one of these people has came forward with evidence that the place was loaded with explosives.  The world record for a controlled demolition took 24 days to plant the explosives and they didn't have to worry about hiding anything.  Therefore, it must have taken them months if not years to setup.  Again, in this amount of time none of the 30 million visitors or 55,000 employees have came forward with evidence of explosives were planted.
> ...



First of all your article has little to do with what I am asking.  This piece shows how he thinks how they brought down the building while leaving open COUNTLESS questions.

Secondly, you are still not answering how they could have planted all this equipment without being noticed or without someone finding it.  Wouldn't one of the 30 million visitors that the WTC got years have found some type of evidence of this.  Wouldn't one of the 55,000 employees there have proof that this existed in the buidling?

Next, your post isn't an explanation why those cords were not found at the WTC.  Here is an exert of an article about the demolition of the J.L. Hudson Building:

"Over 36,000 ft. of detonating cord and 4,512 non-electric delay devices were installed in CDI's implosion initiation system. As the implosion required the detonation of a total of 2,728 lb. of explosives..."
Controlled Demolition, Inc. | Press Release

There you go.  36,000 feet of cord was used on a building MUCH smaller than any of the three world trade center buildings and NOTHING was found in the debris.  

In response to that article you posted more questions were brought up, 
"Please explain to me how it would even be possible, much less likely, for the &#8220;covert demolition teams&#8221;, *to get uninhibited access to hundreds of these core columns in a highly secure and occupied office building, to install these absolutely massive devices, so that they can attach them, all without anyone noticing.*

Also please explain how none of these hundreds, if not thousands, of what would surely be distinctive looking devices,* which by their very nature would have to be built to withstand tremendous pressure and temperature, were not found in the wreckage of the World Trade Center*, by any of the hundreds of firefighters, police officers, iron workers, FBI agents, and various other investigators who were involved in the cleanup. In fact, why is one of these devices not shown in the photo you are using? They should be attached to that very column. Why would these conspirators use such a complicated device, knowing that it could *easily be discovered in the aftermath*?"

Screw Loose Change: Follow-up Questions for Steven Jones



Mr. Jones said:


> Detonating cord: Definition from Answers.com
> 
> Why would the demolition expert you got your information from not explain about this  detonating cord that is commonly used in the industry??



He never said that this wasn't true.  My expert said that the equipment used would have been found to which this has never been refuted.


Mr. Jones said:


> Your source is not credible.



My expert is Mark Loizeaux.

Here is an exert from an article about him:
"Mark Loizeaux is a demolition expert, and his company, Controlled Demolition Inc. in Phoenix, Md., has taken down more than 7,000 structures around the world by imploding them with explosive charges. But that is only about 15 percent of the company's business. Founded by Loizeaux's father, the company also carries out traditional dismantlings of buildings as well as destroying chemical weapons production facilities, including a current project at Fort Detrick, Md., to demolish the facility that made weapons-grade anthrax."

Survival Guide: Mark Loizeaux, demolition expert -- Washington Technology

To me he sounds like he would know what he is talking about when it comes to demolishing a building.


----------



## eots (Jan 31, 2009)

you cant seem to deal with the fact eyewitness testimony and evidence has been witheld..and there even military personal that claim direct knowleadge..but will not speak out of the chain of command only to congress in a investigation


----------



## LA RAM FAN (Jan 31, 2009)

Mr. Jones said:


> You guys fail to understand that the major media outlets that you trust are the ones that passed on false information concerning 9-11, or do not always ask the hard questions, or omit valuable information in reporting the news. That is why so many turn to alternative news sources.
> A person who sits in front of Murdochs Fox News or CNN is simply being brainwashed with propaganda. If a person intends to be informed, he must turn to foreign news broadcasts, to Internet sites, to foreign newspapers available on the Internet, or to alternative newspapers. Independent reporting disappeared when Clinton allowed Murdoch and a small handful of moguls to concentrate the American media in a few corporate hands. That was the end of American reporting.
> Journalists disappeared from management positions and were replaced by corporate advertising executives with the goal not to offend any source of advertising revenue, and certainly not to offend the government, which controls the broadcast licenses . Today, reporters write the stories that their masters want to hear, or they are out. And the editors make csure that no uncomfortable information reaches the public. The function of the MSM is to sell products and to brainwash the audience for the government and interest groups. By subscribing to it, you support your own brainwashing.
> There are 5 major corporations that control the news we see today, and the heads of those corporations are all in bed with the government, they are the manipulators of public opinion.
> ...



exactly,great stuff there Mr Jones.btw dont waste your breath on Big D.He ignores evidence and just repeats the same questions over and over again that he asked you before that you already gave him answers to.Most the 9/11 apologists  on here like Divecon are just idiots and in denial.BiG D is obviously a dis info agent just probing people to see how much they know,so be smart,dont play his game and respond to him.


----------



## LA RAM FAN (Jan 31, 2009)

eots said:


> it would be very clear to any rational and honest mind... you cant not address my statement and are avoiding it with your mindless responses...




its clear to ANYBODY with a rational and open mind with logic and common sense that explosives brought down the towers and it was an inside job.To believe otherwise is being an idiot cause thats saying that the laws of physics that scientists have gone by for thousands of years no longer apply anymore. to defend the official version,thats saying that Sir Issac Newton is an idiot and doesnt know anything at all about science.


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## LA RAM FAN (Jan 31, 2009)

Article 15 said:


> My answer is, you can't.
> 
> I think Bush is a good man with good intentions.  But I also think he's a dumbass that was too heavily influenced by the people around him ... people whom I would put on the less desirable list.
> 
> And I'm sorry for your loss.



the ignorance of people is astonishing.thats the most hysterical thing I have ever heard that Bush is a good man.yeah so was Hitler and Stalin.


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## LA RAM FAN (Jan 31, 2009)

eots said:


> glockmail said:
> 
> 
> > For every Richard Gage (no education or experience in structural or forensic engineering) you bring up I can link to 100's of structural engineers who disagree with his emotion-laced findings, including Gene Corley (BS civil engineering, MS structural engineering, PhD structural engineering, licensed in 18 states and chartered in the UK).
> ...




I cant believe this thread is STILL going on.But since it IS not only that Eots-everybody always ignores you when you point that out about the 500 plus engineers cause their in denial,but Gene Corley has been proven to be a corrupt man as well.I will show that tomorrow.all the stuff you posted on page two alone proves it was an inside job and explosives were used.any person who reads THAT and STILL defends the official version is a complete moron.


----------



## Big_D (Jan 31, 2009)

eots said:


> you cant seem to deal with the fact eyewitness testimony and evidence has been witheld



Do you have any evidence that this is true?  And even if it is, then with all the video footage that was taken of the debris, the demolition equipment would have been visible in it.



eots said:


> ..and there even military personal that claim direct knowleadge..but will not speak out of the chain of command only to congress in a investigation



If they have not spoke out then how do you know that they were informed of it was an inside job?


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## Toro (Jan 31, 2009)

9/11 inside job said:


> the ignorance of people is astonishing.thats the most hysterical thing I have ever heard that Bush is a good man.yeah so was Hitler and Stalin.



Its astonishing that anyone would compare Bush with Hitler and Stalin.

If your goal is to convince others of your thesis, making such analogies discredits you instantly. So you may want to refrain from doing so.


----------



## LA RAM FAN (Jan 31, 2009)

the other thing I wanted to add on to that great post of Mr Jones is that congress did an investigation into the corrupt activities of the CIA back in the 70's and through the freedom of information act,they discovered that the CIA has plants in major media outlets.their everywhere.The CIA was behind 9/11.their the reason the world is in such a mess and their the reason kennedy was killed.He was trying to get rid of the CIA and thats why they killed him.the news topics they cover are a joke.they were talking about O.J SIMPSON and plastering news about him on the front pages of all the major newspapers for over a year.

That kind of news is a joke and horrible reporting.who gives a crap about O.J simpson or if yoru pro football team won sunday? they consider THAT major news to report on the front pages.THIS is what SHOULD have been covered on the front pages of major newspapers for over a year but never was cause the media doesnt report real news.this below.
The Mena Arkansas Reagan, Bush, Clinton, Drug Connection

it was inexcusable to NOT report this for a whole year on the fron pages but to report that OJ SIMPSON garbage.


----------



## Mr. Jones (Jan 31, 2009)

Toro said:


> 9/11 inside job said:
> 
> 
> > the ignorance of people is astonishing.thats the most hysterical thing I have ever heard that Bush is a good man.yeah so was Hitler and Stalin.
> ...


Comparisons are made because Hitler had the Reichstag and Bush had 9-11. Both were reasons to invade a sovereign nation on BS pretexts. Both were false flag ops to promote national unity to fight a common enemy.


----------



## Toro (Jan 31, 2009)

Mr. Jones said:


> Toro said:
> 
> 
> > 9/11 inside job said:
> ...



And Stalin?

When Hitler is referenced, people don't think of the Reichstag.  If your goal is to convince people, making any reference to Hitler is remarkably dumb, because unless you are talking to the True Believers, everyone else - including the undecided - will say "that's idiotic" since Hitler conjures up visions of genocide and barbarity, not the Reichstag.


----------



## DiveCon (Jan 31, 2009)

Toro said:


> Mr. Jones said:
> 
> 
> > Toro said:
> ...


you are trying to use reason and common sense withy someone that thinks Bush was able to pull off a false flag op on 9/11


----------



## Big_D (Jan 31, 2009)

9/11 inside job said:


> eots said:
> 
> 
> > glockmail said:
> ...


*
As I have said to you before, the petition that these engineer/architects signed did NOT state that they believe 9/11 was an inside job. * It clearly states that they simply want a new investigation.  Because someone wants a new investigation does not mean they believe it was an inside job.  

If Gene Corley has been proven to be a corrupt man than please provide evidence proving this.  

If you want evidence of what engineers are saying about the attacks then you have to look no further than the following two articles:

http://www.civil.northwestern.edu/people/bazant/PDFs/Papers/405.pdf
http://www.structuremag.org/Archives/2007-11/SF-WTC7-Gilsanz-Nov07.pdf

As I have been saying, these two articles have been read and approved by the the engineering division of the Society for Industrial and Applied Mathematics.  The people who wrote and approved those two article are among the top engineering minds in the world.  Nobody cannot can get to their position without being voted or appointed in by other engineering experts.  They are professors at the best engineering schools in the world.  Look at the list of engineers who approved those two papers:
ASCE-EMD - ADMINISTRATIVE COMMITTEES
ASCE-EMD - ADMINISTRATIVE COMMITTEES

No other article about the attacks can be more credible as it hasn't passed this group.  As oppose to the engineers/architects who signed the petition these experts *are *actually stating their view on 9-11 and that is the official version.


----------



## Mr. Jones (Feb 1, 2009)

Toro said:


> Mr. Jones said:
> 
> 
> > Toro said:
> ...


The goal is to get people to think with more of an open mind about their country, if comparing Bush with Hitler automatically makes people think what you say, then that is proof society is programmed to think a certain way at the mere mention of a name or topic. All one has to do is ask _why_ the comparison is made. That's the problem, no one asks why about anything. Many people today frequently dismiss information without questioning it, without considering it and in many cases without even looking at it. 
Because CNN and FOX news figure it for them


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## Godboy (Feb 1, 2009)

> if comparing Bush with Hitler automatically makes people think what you say, then that is proof society is programmed to think a certain way at the mere mention of a name or topic



This statement is  a cop out. There is a big difference between programming people and simply informing them of world history. History is taught to humans starting from a young age, and obviously Hitler is a big part of human history, let alone current history. If it was YOUR job to teach young kids who Hitler was, you are well aware that it would be a complete waste of time to spend a day teaching them about how much Hitler loved his German shepards, because doing so would not be true to what he really was...a monster. Every person has done something good in their life, no matter how evil that person is theyve done something good at some point, but you would be doing those children a big injustice to only teach them about the good things Hitler did, because those good things dont hold any significance to his place in world history. 

Which brings us back to what really matters, what you claimed we were programmed to think...Hitler was a madman who killed millions. When you say Hitler, it brings up images death and destruction, not because we are "programmed" to think that way, but because it WAS THAT WAY. MANY people died, and theres countless hours of black and white footage to prove it. Its the most horrible thing ever documented and this documentation is ingrained in our minds, for obvious the reason...because it was absolutely terrible. 

When you compare someone to Hitler, what fucking other thing would we think youre talking about? I mean, if you say Bush is just like Hitler, im certainly not thinking...."a man with a fondness for German shepards"! 

You said a stupid thing. Why not, instead of trying to back peddle with this "programmed" nonsense, just own up to your mistake and not make it again in the future?


----------



## Mr. Jones (Feb 1, 2009)

Godboy said:


> This statement is  a cop out. There is a big difference between programming people and simply informing them of world history. History is taught to humans starting from a young age, and obviously Hitler is a big part of human history, let alone current history. If it was YOUR job to teach young kids who Hitler was, you are well aware that it would be a complete waste of time to spend a day teaching them about how much Hitler loved his German shepards, because doing so would not be true to what he really was...a monster. Every person has done something good in their life, no matter how evil that person is theyve done something good at some point, but you would be doing those children a big injustice to only teach them about the good things Hitler did, because those good things dont hold any significance to his place in world history.
> 
> Which brings us back to what really matters, what you claimed we were programmed to think...Hitler was a madman who killed millions. When you say Hitler, it brings up images death and destruction, not because we are "programmed" to think that way, but because it WAS THAT WAY. MANY people died, and theres countless hours of black and white footage to prove it. Its the most horrible thing ever documented and this documentation is ingrained in our minds, for obvious the reason...because it was absolutely terrible.
> 
> ...


This is a thread about 9-11, not the Holocaust. Like I said before Hitler had the Reichstag and Bush had 9-11 that is the comparison, if your too stupid to understand that read some history on false flag ops.


----------



## DiveCon (Feb 1, 2009)

Mr. Jones said:


> Godboy said:
> 
> 
> > This statement is  a cop out. There is a big difference between programming people and simply informing them of world history. History is taught to humans starting from a young age, and obviously Hitler is a big part of human history, let alone current history. If it was YOUR job to teach young kids who Hitler was, you are well aware that it would be a complete waste of time to spend a day teaching them about how much Hitler loved his German shepards, because doing so would not be true to what he really was...a monster. Every person has done something good in their life, no matter how evil that person is theyve done something good at some point, but you would be doing those children a big injustice to only teach them about the good things Hitler did, because those good things dont hold any significance to his place in world history.
> ...


except 9/11 wasnt a false flag like you nutters believe


----------



## Mr. Jones (Feb 2, 2009)

Big_D said:


> As I have said to you before, the petition that these engineer/architects signed did NOT state that they believe 9/11 was an inside job. [/B] It clearly states that they simply want a new investigation.  Because someone wants a new investigation does not mean they believe it was an inside job.


 So they must want a new investigation because why? Because the official story is flawed.



> If Gene Corley has been proven to be a corrupt man than please provide evidence proving this.


 The resume of Dr. W. Gene Corley demonstrates that he has a long history of being a shill for the U S Government.  


> If you want evidence of what engineers are saying about the attacks then you have to look no further than the following two articles:
> 
> http://www.civil.northwestern.edu/people/bazant/PDFs/Papers/405.pdf
> http://www.structuremag.org/Archives/2007-11/SF-WTC7-Gilsanz-Nov07.pdf
> ...


 Blah blah blah... I took the time to check out one of your links regarding the experts you speak of so highly, and I found that the
Scholars for 9-11 Truth have written a paper in the Journal of 9/11 Studies that is a refutation of what your experts wrote and subsequently NIST agreed with. Specifically this one written by Zdenek P. Bazant, and Yong Zhou.
http://www.civil.northwestern.edu/people/bazant/PDFs/Papers/405.pdf 
 It is interesting to read exactly what your experts are claiming, and the response to it. Basically your guys say that the top 12 floors they call RB-12 (RIGID BLOCK) crashed down on the remaining structure
DS-6 (DAMAGED STRUCTURE 6floors) and RB-92 the remaining undamaged stories of the WTC. 
*"What NIST essentially says, agreeing with Bazant, is that the lighter and weaker part initially fell
with a powerful jolt onto the heavier and stronger part, which could not withstand its momentum,
and that this caused a progressive collapse to initiate smashing the lower block to bits all the way
to the ground. The NIST Final Report does not tell us what happened to RB-12+ after its impact with the two
structures beneath it. Did it fall through them all the way to the ground (that is, to the rubble heap
on the ground), maintaining considerable mass and rigidity the whole time--as Bazant argued in
2001 and has continued to argue? On this the NIST authors are silent. 
NIST also does not tell us how far RB-12+ fell before its impact with intact structure. Did it fall
one story (roughly 12 feet), or several stories? We are left in the dark. Once again Bazant comes
to the rescue. It fell &#8220;at least one story,&#8221; he says. [13]
To his credit, Bazant is willing to state the essential elements of the hypothesis. If this hypothesis
is to hold any water at all there must be substantial impact: RB-12+ has a lot of work to do, so it
had better fall at least one story.
As we will show, for the purposes of the present refutation it does not matter whether RB-12+
fell one story, six stories, or somewhere in between."*

*"The 116th peer-reviewed paper was published today in the Journal of 9/11 Studies:*
*&#8220;The Missing Jolt: A Simple Refutation of the NIST-Bazant Collapse Hypothesis,&#8221;*

*This fine paper underwent several months of rather arduous peer-review preceding its publication in the Journal of 9/11 Studies. The paper supports work by James Gourley published in the Journal of Engineering Mechanics and recent analysis by David Chandler. A few quotes from the paper should wet your interest:

&#8220;In its Final Report on the Collapse of the World Trade Center Towers, the National Institute of Standards and Technology summarizes its three year study and outlines its explanation of the total collapse of WTC 1 and WTC 2.[1] Readers of the report will find that the roughly $20 million expended on this effort have resulted in an explanation of the total collapse of these buildings that is so vague it barely qualifies as a hypothesis. But it does have one crucial feature of a hypothesis: it is, in principle, falsifiable. In fact, it is easy to demonstrate that it is false.
In this paper we will, concentrating on the North Tower, offer a refutation that is:
&#8226; easy to understand but reasonably precise
&#8226; capable of being stated briefly
&#8226; verifiable by any reader with average computer skills and a grasp of simple mathematics.*
*[snip] Zdenek Bazant and Yong Zhou, with whose September 13, 2001 back-of-the-envelope theory (with subsequent revisions and additions) NIST largely agrees, have never hesitated to say that the upper block fell. [8] Bazant has likewise been frank about the need for severe impact as the upper and lower structures met: he believes the impact may have been powerful enough to have been recorded by seismometers. [9] In his view, collapse initiation of the lower structure required &#8220;one powerful jolt.&#8221;[10] Of course, if there was a powerful jolt to the lower structure there must also have been a powerful jolt to the upper falling structure, in accord with Newton&#8217;s Third Law.&#8221;*

 The Scholars For 9-11 Truth took the time to thoroughly examine footage of the north tower collapse and take measurements and are very thorough. And they blow Bazant's and NIST's theory away. Check it out yourself.
STJ911 Blog
http://journalof911studies.com/volume/2008/TheMissingJolt4.pdf

They also say--*"It is
also important to note here that Bazant was off by a factor of ten in his calculation of the
stiffness of the columns, with his 71 GN/m estimate. [8] The actual stiffness, calculated here
using the actual column cross sections, is approximately 7.1 GN/m. (see Appendices B and C)
[19][20] This error of Bazant&#8217;s caused him to significantly overestimate the potential amplifying
effect of the impulse or jolt he claims occurred after a one story fall of the upper block.*
*Conclusions:
We have tracked the fall of the roof of the North Tower through 114.4 feet, (approximately 9
stories) and we have found that it did not suffer severe and sudden impact or abrupt
deceleration. There was no jolt. Thus there could not have been any amplified load. In the
absence of an amplified load there is no mechanism to explain the collapse of the lower portion
of the building, which was undamaged by fire. The collapse hypothesis of Bazant and the authors
of the NIST report has not withstood scrutiny.*

 My Conclusion after studying this:  The NIST report and it's authors are full of shit.


----------



## Mr. Jones (Feb 2, 2009)

DiveCon said:


> except 9/11 wasnt a false flag like you nutters believe


 You haven't looked into the events before or after 9-11 much have you? Or read about false flag ops?


----------



## RetiredGySgt (Feb 2, 2009)

Mr. Jones said:


> DiveCon said:
> 
> 
> > except 9/11 wasnt a false flag like you nutters believe
> ...



The sheer number of people that would have to be involved for this to be a false flag operation is staggering. Thousands of people from all walks of life would need to be intimately involved. Security Guards and administrators as well as regular employees of most firms in the towers would have to have either been involved or to stupid to notice massive construction on numerous floors and the basement, they would have had to have blinders on to miss the cut support columns and the explosives and intricate wiring needed to bring the Towers down on 9/11, all done at least WEEKS before the attack.

Airport security at 4 separate airports, passengers on at least two of the hijacked jets that phoned family about the hijackings. Ticketing agents at 4 airports.

The FBI would have to have been involved in large numbers if we are to believe the claims they seized tapes along the route of the Washington DC air liner minutes after it occurred. Someone would have had to fly the plane, load the missile and control the flight for the supposed missile that hit the Pentagon. This would have included weapons loaders, aircrew, maintenance, security, flight line crew, air traffic controllers and at least one AWACS.

The military would have had to be included, all the supposed orders to shut down all intercepts and all air bases the morning of the attack, this would include again, pilots, air crew, flight crew, security, maintenance personnel.

All the eye witnesses that SAW the plane in DC would have had to be in on it. The passengers and crew of the missing plane would have to go somewhere as well as the aircraft, this would include at least one airbase somewhere and all the myriad of people that would have seen the aircraft land. Not to mention the security needed to offload and murder and dispose of the bodies. And then there is the plane itself. It had to go somewhere.

Then we have the supposed cover up. This would require the cooperation of hundreds of investigators from city, county, State and Federal and military to pull off. It would require the cooperation of most of the engineers and architects that agree on what happened. It would require the Mayor and his staff in New York to be in on it.

It would require all the rescue volunteers and workers at ground zero to be in on it, in order to cover up the supposed explosive material and residue that would be left over. The press and emergency medical personnel. The fire fighters that just lost hundreds of fiends and coworkers, the city cops as well.

The number of people that would be involved is staggering. And then to claim all these people from all these different walks of life all agreed to remain silent about it and have done so for 8 years..... Ya I can see where you conspiracy guys have a lock on this situation.


----------



## eots (Feb 2, 2009)

RetiredGySgt said:


> Mr. Jones said:
> 
> 
> > DiveCon said:
> ...



you have no idea how many people would of been involved or what demolition techniques where used ..they are all just assumptions made from your very limited knowledge


----------



## DiveCon (Feb 2, 2009)

eots said:


> RetiredGySgt said:
> 
> 
> > Mr. Jones said:
> ...


LOL
what demolition techniques were used?


----------



## DiveCon (Feb 2, 2009)

Mr. Jones said:


> DiveCon said:
> 
> 
> > except 9/11 wasnt a false flag like you nutters believe
> ...


actually, i have, and i found that all you troofers are fucking moronic idiots


----------



## Big_D (Feb 2, 2009)

Mr. Jones said:


> So they must want a new investigation because why? Because the official story is flawed.



Again, this doesn't mean they believe Bush and company planted explosives in the WTC buildings, hit the pentagon with a missile, and shot down a third aircraft.  The people who signed it simply want a new investigation.  Look at senator Mark Dayton.  He wants a new investigation and he does not believe it was an inside job.  It is interesting that the conspirators have a petition that states they simply want a new investigation instead of stating, "Sign the following if you believe our govt blew up the WTC buildings."  The reason it is not phrased as this is because if they would do this, they know much fewer people would actually sign it. If someone would go to their website you can actually see that a good portion of these people ARE NOT EVEN LICENSED!!!  But it doesn't matter as they are NOT saying they believe it was an inside job.



Mr. Jones said:


> If you want evidence of what engineers are saying about the attacks then you have to look no further than the following two articles:



I know you opinion.  I asked for evidence to support this. 



Mr. Jones said:


> Blah blah blah... I took the time to check out one of your links regarding the experts you speak of so highly, and I found that the
> Scholars for 9-11 Truth have written a paper in the Journal of 9/11 Studies that is a refutation of what your experts wrote and subsequently NIST agreed with. Specifically this one written by Zdenek P. Bazant, and Yong Zhou.
> http://www.civil.northwestern.edu/people/bazant/PDFs/Papers/405.pdf
> It is interesting to read exactly what your experts are claiming, and the response to it. Basically your guys say that the top 12 floors they call RB-12 (RIGID BLOCK) crashed down on the remaining structure.



I have read this.  They miss the point of the paper.  Here is the journal of debunking 9/11 conspiracy theories response:
"Once accurate computer calculations are carried out, various details of the failure mechanism will doubtless be found to differ from the present simplifying hypotheses.  *Errors by a factor of 2 would not be terribly surprising, but that would hardly matter since the present analysis reveals order-of-magnitude differences between the dynamic loads and the structural resistance.*

There have been many interesting, but intuitive, competing explanations of the collapse.  To decide their viability, however, it is important to do at least some crude calculations.  For example, it has been suggested that the connections of the floor-supporting trusses to the framed tube columns were not strong enough.  Maybe they were not, but even if they were it would have made no difference, as shown by the present simple analysis.

*The main purpose of the present analysis is to prove that the whole tower must have collapsed if the fire destroyed the load capacity of the majority of columns of a single floor.  *This purpose justifies the optimistic simplifying assumptions regarding survival made at the outset, which include unlimited plastic ductility) i.e., absence of fracture), uniform distribution of impact forces among the columns, disregard of various complication details (e.g., the possibility that the failures of floor-column connections and of core columns preceded the column and tube failure, or that the upper tube got wedged inside the lower tube), etc. "
http://www.jod911.com/evidence.pdf

Plus, if he is wrong then the following must be wrong as they all approved his paper:

George Deodatis: Department of Civil and Environmental Engineering at Princeton University 

Jacob Fish: Department of Civil Engineering at Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute 

Nimal Rajapakse: Department of Mechanical Engineering at the University of British Columbia 

Keh-Han Wang: Department of Civil and Environmental Engineering at the University of Houston 

Jin Ooi: School of Civil & Environmental Engineering at the University of Edinburgh.

Guillermo D. Hahnepartment of Civil and Environmental Engineering at Vanderbilt University  

Hamn-Ching Chen: Department of Civil Engineering at the Texas A&M University  

James L. Beck: Applied Mechanics and Civil Engineering at the California Institute of Technology 

Arup K. Maji: Department of Civil Engineering at the University of New Mexico 

ASCE-EMD - ADMINISTRATIVE COMMITTEES

Plus, many others that I do not feel like posting.


----------



## Big_D (Feb 2, 2009)

eots said:


> you have no idea how many people would of been involved or what demolition techniques where used ..they are all just assumptions made from your very limited knowledge


 
The assumptions made on your side is that these buildings could have had demolition equipment placed and hidden without _anyone_ have proof  of noticing or finding them.


----------



## eots (Feb 2, 2009)

no individual study means anything   without the full release of all suppressed evidence..eyewittness statements..and full panel peer review of all conclusions...something the Bush administration has done everything in its power to avoid....


----------



## DiveCon (Feb 2, 2009)

eots said:


> no individual study means anything   without the full release of all suppressed evidence..eyewittness statements..and full panel peer review of all conclusions...something the Bush administration has done everything in its power to avoid....


actually, there has been a ton released, and all of it shows that what happened, happened, yet you guys still deny it
why should they bother to release more classified info for you to deny?


----------



## eots (Feb 2, 2009)

DiveCon said:


> eots said:
> 
> 
> > no individual study means anything   without the full release of all suppressed evidence..eyewittness statements..and full panel peer review of all conclusions...something the Bush administration has done everything in its power to avoid....
> ...



oh really... a ton has been released,,any links ?


----------



## DiveCon (Feb 2, 2009)

eots said:


> DiveCon said:
> 
> 
> > eots said:
> ...


they've all been posted to you before
it was a waste of time then, why would it be any different now?


----------



## eots (Feb 2, 2009)

oh..really...post of previously classified 911 evidence has been released...intresting tell me more...can you be specific... and the full peer review ...when did that occur ....you have never even read the 911 commission report...have you


----------



## Big_D (Feb 2, 2009)

eots said:


> no individual study means anything   without the full release of all suppressed evidence..eyewittness statements..and full panel peer review of all conclusions...something the Bush administration has done everything in its power to avoid....



What evidence and statements have been suppressed?

If our govt did plant explosives and had it hidden in the WTC buildings how come actual evidence hasn't ever came forward with this.  As we said, it would have been hidden for months if not years in the buildings.  Wouldn't someone have captured any evidence of this on film?  By now wouldn't it be posted all over the web?  There is simply NO way our govt could have stopped this from happening taking into account all the people that went through the WTC.  It is just simply impossible.  

Honestly, tell me how they could have hidden the demolition equipment, for as long as they had to, without anyone having taken a picture of it.


----------



## DiveCon (Feb 2, 2009)

eots said:


> oh..really...post of previously classified 911 evidence has been released...intresting tell me more...can you be specific... and the full peer review ...when did that occur ....you have never even read the 911 commission report...have you


stop being a clown, if you can


----------



## eots (Feb 2, 2009)

my god that list is so long...wtc 7...was completly ommited from the report..amd your all right wth that
and any and all eyewittness testomony that conflicted with the official story was completly ommitted
..94 survallence tapes from the pentagon...it just goes on and on..


----------



## DiveCon (Feb 2, 2009)

eots said:


> my god that list is so long...wtc 7...was completly ommited from the report..amd your all right wth that
> and any and all eyewittness testomony that conflicted with the official story was completly ommitted
> ..94 survallence tapes from the pentagon...it just goes on and on..


why should they release those 94, when you clowns ignored the ones they have released?


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## Big_D (Feb 2, 2009)

eots said:


> my god that list is so long...wtc 7...was completly ommited from the
> report..amd your all right wth that



It was certainly part of the NIST report.  I know you do think much of that one, but it is still part of it.



eots said:


> and any and all eyewittness testomony that conflicted with the official story was completly ommitted



How do you know that _all _ testimony that conflicted with the official story was omitted?



eots said:


> 94 survallence tapes from the pentagon



The only place I can find this on the web is on the conspirators website and even if it is true then there would still be a number of reasons why they wouldn't want it shown to the public.
*
Just answer me this question:  How they could have hidden the demolition equipment, for as long as they had to, without anyone having taken a picture of it.*


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## DiveCon (Feb 2, 2009)

Big_D said:


> eots said:
> 
> 
> > my god that list is so long...wtc 7...was completly ommited from the
> ...


he's talking about the security camera footage that was taken as evidence from gas stations and hotels in the area
the ones they have released had just fleeting glimpes of the plane, but these guys still refuse to admit it


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## RetiredGySgt (Feb 2, 2009)

Big_D said:


> eots said:
> 
> 
> > my god that list is so long...wtc 7...was completly ommited from the
> ...



EOTS doesn't do facts. In fact if he had to he would have to admit his crack pot claims are, well crackpot.

In order to bring a building down in a controlled explosion one must spends weeks and sometimes months preparing the EMPTY building. depending on height, different floors have to have supports cut partly through and laced with explosives with a series of very specialized and VISIBLE wiring running to a control point and that Control point has to be linked by more specialized wire to all the other CONTROL points and the actually detonation point.

The basement has to have supports cut in a similar manner with even more explosives and wiring. A building the size of the Twin Towers would need explosives on numerous floors UNLESS EOTS is going to concede that taking out several floors and allowing them to slam into the floors below them will CAUSE just such a collapse.

The Twin Towers were NEVER empty. Security was never removed, maintenance was never stopped, workers at all the firms in those buildings were never locked out.

The IGNORANCE of the claim that somehow Bush managed to plant explosives in those buildings with no one being the wiser, no security being tripped, no maintenance personnel seeing the construction and preparations required is astounding.

Which firm did the explosives and wiring? Only a few firms can do that work. Joe CIA rag man can not do it. Nor can military Fred.

When one starts asking these questions EOTS and partners scurry for the dark corners and try to bamboozle the ignorant and foolish with side claims and bullshit.

Their whole petition is a con job. It does not claim that they want an investigation into the FALSE FLAG operation. It does not even claim the Government had anything to do with the attacks. But that doesn't stop these con artists from later claiming anyone that signed those petitions agrees with their ignorant ass claims.


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## Big_D (Feb 2, 2009)

DiveCon said:


> Big_D said:
> 
> 
> > eots said:
> ...



These tapes have been released.   There was no camera with 24 frames per second that show the crash.  All are security cameras.  I cannot find any info where it says the govt has seized this and will not release it to the public. I have found that one FBI agent that said there are 85 tapes that could show something but nothing conclusive.


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## DiveCon (Feb 2, 2009)

Big_D said:


> DiveCon said:
> 
> 
> > Big_D said:
> ...


its said that they got tape from 97 security cams in the area
of that they release video from 3
none have a great image of the plane because they were not 30 fps cams, just security cams
i doubt any of the 94 not released would show anything more than the 3 released


but i would like to see them all released, just to shut these morons up, but i know it wont
they will just keep claiming the same bullshit over and over


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## Big_D (Feb 2, 2009)

RetiredGySgt said:


> Big_D said:
> 
> 
> > eots said:
> ...



Exactly!  I have never seen an adequate explanation on this.  As I have shown it took a company almost a month to do the wiring on an empty building that was less than a third the size on ONE WTC building.  Plus, this demolition company didn't have to worry about hiding cables, explosives, etc.  Now, in order to blow up two 110 story buildings and another 47 story building, with 30 million people passing through them each year and hiding EVERYTHING, would have just been impossible.  And even if they were able to hide them eventually someone would have came forward with proof by now.


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## RetiredGySgt (Feb 2, 2009)

Big_D said:


> DiveCon said:
> 
> 
> > Big_D said:
> ...



You realize part of the conspiracy claim is that within minutes of the aircraft hitting the Pentagon FBI agents SWARMED the route and confiscated all the tapes in a matter of minutes? Sometimes threatening the business if they did not hand them over RIGHT then.

Of course EOTS has also claimed two completely different versions of events at the Pentagon. He no longer posts them but he claimed , in the same post, the following...

Version 1.

High Ranking Military Officers rushed out of the Pentagon to the side of the building hit and swear there was absolutely NO debris. No evidence a plane was involved at all.

Version 2.

Another eye witness at the Pentagon that had experience with air frames and commercial jets claimed that not only was there lots of aircraft debris, including part of a fuselage, but the parts were all from the wrong kind of aircraft AND the painting on the parts was from the WRONG airline.

Further he has at times claimed a " couple" of guys could easily have laid all the explosives needed in a matter of a short time in the Towers. And he sites as evidence that a few weeks before the attack a small section of one of the Towers was sealed off for a short time.

Another of his claims is that WTC 7 was destroyed because it was the command center from which the attacks were carried out and the Government needed to destroy the evidence of those plans and that command center.

Another great claim is that there were no terrorists at all. That there is no evidence any Arabs were involved at all. That the Government sent its own people to hijack the aircraft. Of course when you ask EOTS how they found suicidal Government workers to fly the planes into those buildings he starts ducking and weaving. That usually gets another conspirator to claim that the planes had no hijackers at all, that the passengers and crew were probably gassed and the planes were remotely piloted ( from WTC 7 command post) into the buildings.

EOTS has at times claimed that Bill Clinton and his administration worked with George Bush and his to carry out the attacks and that the Mayor of New York was in on the whole thing. Other times he just claims a nefarious secret group that REALLY runs the Country just ordered Bush to go along. That Congressman and Senators were all in the know but ordered to be quiet about it from this Secret Cabal.


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## Big_D (Feb 2, 2009)

DiveCon said:


> Big_D said:
> 
> 
> > DiveCon said:
> ...



Really?  I cannot find anywhere it says they have not been released.  In fact, the agent who said she saw all the videos claimed that the ONLY one with adequate footage was well known security camera at the pentagon.

This one: http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/05/16/pentagon.video/index.html

Plus, you're right.  Since they are security cameras they would not show an adequate video of the plane hitting the building.


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## Big_D (Feb 2, 2009)

RetiredGySgt said:


> Big_D said:
> 
> 
> > DiveCon said:
> ...



Another thing I never understood was the incentive for our government to attack itself.  That alone just doesn't make sense.  They people behind the attacks (who apparently are in high powerful positions) would know that if there was proof of this, then there would be anarchy like France in the 1800's.  Or, the individuals certainly would have been murdered in the streets like Mussolini.  It doesn't add up.


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## DiveCon (Feb 2, 2009)

Big_D said:


> DiveCon said:
> 
> 
> > Big_D said:
> ...


yeah, i had seen the second camera release, plus they had one from a gas station where you could only see the tip of the tail and the reflection of the body under a bridge
not sure if they are still online or not


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## DiveCon (Feb 2, 2009)

wow, i hadnt seen this one before
it doesnt show anything till the very end, but you can see it

[youtube]8Vnu_yiUzls[/youtube]


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## DiveCon (Feb 2, 2009)

here is another fun one

[youtube]5j_c1tPMiG0&NR=1[/youtube]


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## DiveCon (Feb 2, 2009)

here is another one that shows how the troofers lie

[youtube]t1wQ2BJsgx0&NR=1[/youtube]


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## eots (Feb 2, 2009)

> RetiredGySgt said:
> 
> 
> > Big_D said:
> ...



there are indeed secret society's ..a shadow gpovernment..and they have lead you to wars built on lies...and are now raiding your bank account...and it is all by design



[ame=http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=_WSGwnz7XpY]YouTube - The speech that got John F. Kennedy Killed[/ame]


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## DiveCon (Feb 2, 2009)

eots said:


> > right and your talking about the pentagon the most secured building in americia ..but no cameras...ck
> >
> >
> >
> ...


more deflection by Eots


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## manu1959 (Feb 2, 2009)

someone tell me again why we chose to wage war rather than just buy iraq.....


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## Mr. Jones (Feb 3, 2009)

Big_D said:


> Plus, many others that I do not feel like posting.


Looking for truth in credentials-
When Matthew Rothschild, editor of the online magazine The Progressive, wrote an article called Enough of the 9/11 Conspiracies, Already, we all knew he was not talking about the conspiracy theory that the US government sells us to justify the expanding 9/11 Wars. To the contrary, in writing that article Mr. Rothschild was selling that same theory himself. What he actually meant was that people should not question the US governments story of terror because credentialed experts have been found to support it. But the fact is that the experts found to support the official conspiracy theory of 9/11 are predominantly those who profit from doing so. 
*Thats not to say that all of these people were part of the conspiracy. *But they are, whether consciously or not, a part of the cover-up. And that, of course, is the greater crime. 
The Bush Administration employed a number of such credentialed experts to give us multiple explanations for the unprecedented destruction of three tall steel-framed buildings at the World Trade Center (WTC). Unfortunately, all of those explanations have proven to be false, and this fact reminds us that academic credentials dont necessarily make a person more capable of, or more likely to, tell the truth. 
Exactly how they could find so many experts on the fire-induced collapse of tall buildings is not immediately clear, considering such an event had never happened before. But it did help that the questions were quickly framed as being solely matters of structural engineering, a sub-field of civil engineering,* because structural engineers cannot find work without continual government approvals. A Chemistry laboratory manager like myself can work without permits or licenses, but people cant just go out and build a bridge or a tall building on their own. The extensive paperwork necessary to complete civil engineering projects is obtained by working closely with, and staying on good terms with, local and national authorities.* That fact may not be enough to ensure vocal support for the official story of global collapse, but it has been enough to keep most structural engineers from publicly opposing the intransigent government stance on the WTC events. 
From where, then, has the vocal support come within the engineering community? Matthew Rothschild points to some interesting characters when he says that I made a few calls myself, including to *Gene Corley *and to* Mete Sozen. *Additionally, Rothschild says that he consulted some of the top building design and engineering firms, like *Skidmore Owings* *& Merrill,* and *Greenhorne & OMara.* To emphasize just how solid the governments story is, he adds that he also contacted engineering professors at* MIT *and other leading *universities in the country,* and none of them puts any stock in the 9/11 conspiracy theories.

 What Mr. Rothschild failed to tell us is that Gene Corley and Mete Sozen not only created the reports that he is defending, but have also, for many years, worked for the US Department of Defense (DOD) through the Blast Mitigation for Structures Program (BMSP). Since 1997, this program has provided the DOD with expertise in explosives, and has been funded at $10 million annually.[2] After 9/11, astronomical increases in DOD funding were likely to have benefited all DOD partners and programs, like DODs Nunn-Perry award winner, Greenhorne & OMara, and those involved with the BMSP. Of course, the DOD was probably already awash in black-budget funds prior to 9/11, as indicated by the missing trillions reported by the DOD on 9/10/01.[3]

Rothschild also failed to let us know that Skidmore Owings & Merrill (SOM), one of his independent engineering firms, is responsible for the architectural design of the new Freedom Tower. SOM gained that contract at the personal insistence of Larry Silverstein, the original owner of WTC 7 and the WTC towers leaseholder. Mr. Rothschild may also not be aware that William Baker, a top executive at SOM, was involved in several of the official WTC investigations and reports that have been generated. In any case it is clear that the Freedom Tower would not be the publicity-rich project it is today if an alternative explanation forced us to rename it the There Goes Our Freedom Tower. 

Getting back to those experts at BMSP, we see that DOD employs a number of consulting firms to help out Corley and Sozen, in what is called the Blast Mitigation Action Group (BMAG), including ARUP, ARA, SAIC, SGH, Thornton-Tomasetti and Weidlinger Associates.[4] It should be noted that most of these firms were major contributors to the various official explanations for collapse of the WTC buildings, as well as being government contractors in fields related to terrorism. Strangely, despite their overwhelming expertise in the use of explosives, none of their explanations for the WTC events had anything to do with explosives. 

In any case, it is clear that Rothschilds primary experts have a long history of involvement in US government interests, and in highly questionable engineering reports. But surely the *engineering professors at MIT *and other leading universities in the country could not all be so tied to US government interests. There must be some objective members within the group of scientists supporting the Bush Administrations theories, and some agreement among scientists around the world. 
The truth is that interpretation of the events at the WTC does include *some agreement from all parties.* *We all agree that no tall steel-framed building in history has ever collapsed uniformly at nearly free-fall speed into a pile of rubble for any reason whatsoever, outside of demolition.* And were in agreement that the first three occasions of such an event supposedly occurred all on the same day, all in the same place. ..
From there, however, the views of the governments credentialed experts diverge from those who are more interested in objectively seeking the truth. The initial facts of agreement should lead any objective person to seek *a detailed investigation that leaves no hypothesis un-examined. *But for the governments credentialed experts, only one hypothesis was worthy of consideration, a fire-based failure of all three buildings that jibed with the overall official version of the events of that day. 
In support of that fire-based triple play, the experts gave us a progression of false stories. The media gave us the first false story, with help from* PhD engineers,* some of whom were contributors to the official reports. *Eduardo Kausel, an engineering professor at MIT *and contributor to the WTC report generated by the National Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST), suggested to us in Scientific American that this catastrophe was probably due to the jet fuel fires *melting *the steel in the buildings.[8] He was joined in this early theory by a handful of other PhD engineers and professors around the country,....Another structural engineer who made early claims of melting steel, in the infamous 2002 Nova video Why the Towers Fell, was *Matthys Levy.* Mr. Levy was a principal at the BMAG consulting firm Weidlinger Associates that, later, with the help of many other PhD engineers, produced a report on the WTC disaster as part of* an insurance claim by Larry Silverstein.*
....Their final report told us that floor failure had nothing to do with the WTC disasters, but that the failure of columns alone, independent of the floors, explains the collapses.[11] At the time, Levy told us *There is no doubt left about the sequence of failure.[12] *
Unfortunately, the credentialed experts were wrong again. Until NISTs final report came out in 2005, the Pancake Theory had replaced the column failure theory as the most widely accepted explanation for collapse. FEMA, along with a professor of Engineering from Northwestern,* Zdenek Bazant,* championed this theory of pancaking floors as the major explanation for the collapse of both towers,* directly contradicting* *the Silverstein-Weidlinger report. *
....Amazingly enough, just last summer *NIST finally admitted that the explanation could not involve pancaking floors either*, by saying NISTs findings do not support the pancake theory of collapse.[13] NISTs findings, first reported in their final draft report of October 2004 and built over a period of several years, originally consisted of two considerably different stories for the two towers.
But NIST *modified this nine months later* in their final, final draft report, giving just one story for both towers about widely-dislodged fireproofing and sagging floors pulling the external columns inward, with no mention of pancaking. Their final, final collapse initiation sequence, the essence of their report, is now known to be false in every aspect.

*Through the years, NIST and the other official investigators ignored the demolition hypothesis completely,* as can be seen from their reports and archived presentations. 

The experts you site are not going to deviate from the official line -
*"Thats not surprising though, as the scientists working for FEMA and NIST, and therefore for the Bush Administration, would not likely lead their investigation toward a result that would limit or stop the 9/11 Wars.* -Read DOD

And we can imagine that all those independent contractors who contributed to the ever-changing story, who were also consulting firms for the DODs interesting Blast Mitigation Action Group, would be hard-pressed to offer an explanation that would require a less militarily focused solution. -Kevin Ryan

Read the rest of it to find out how some of the "experts" used to back up the official version received government grants to their engineering depts. at schools like University of California San Diego, and Carnegie Mellon University.

* Those of us fighting for the truth about 9/11 owe it to the victims of the expanding 9/11 Wars, and to ourselves, to reveal these ongoing lies from corporate criminals and their credentialed experts. It is becoming increasingly obvious that those giving us one false story after another, while simultaneously ignoring much of the evidence of 9/11, might have more than just a cozy relationship with this government, and more than a benign past. It seems quite possible that some among those providing these explanations are knowingly complicit in the greater crime of a 9/11 cover-up.

It is also true that, like Matthew Rothschild, many of us (YOU PEOPLE)  simply want quick and easy answers, in order to relieve ourselves of any need to think about the facts of 9/11..*

4um: Looking for Truth in Credentials: The WTC Experts


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## Big_D (Feb 3, 2009)

Mr. Jones said:


> Big_D said:
> 
> 
> > Plus, many others that I do not feel like posting.
> ...



So these people believe the experts who I have shown create fictional papers on 9/11 because they cannot find work or will not be able to get work without the govt's help?  That is one of the most silly explanations I have ever heard.  First off, the experts I have shown have jobs as professors, they do not need to find any work at all.  Secondly, are you saying that ALL the professors in the United States know 9/11 is an inside job and have no values at all so they just keep quiet?  Couldn't they just go to a foreign country to start a new life and then start saying the "truth"?  Thirdly, a good number of the people I have shown are not even Americans.  In fact,* a number of the experts I showed on the post you quoted me had engineers that were not Americans. * Here is a list of foreigners who agree with that it is the terrorists who caused 9/11:
&#8226;	Dr. Asif Usmani: Professor of engineering at Edinburgh 
o	His view on 9/11: Edinburgh Research Archive : Item 1842/1216
o	His Credentials: Fire Safety Engineering
&#8226;	Dr. Jose Torero: Professor of engineering at Edinburgh  
o	His View on 9/11: Edinburgh Research Archive : Item 1842/1216
o	His credentials: Fire Safety Engineering
&#8226;	Masayuki Nakao Engineering professor at the University of Tokyo. 
o	His view on 9/11: JST Failure Knowledge Database > Case Details > The World Trade Center Collapse
o	His credentials: Masayuki Nakao
&#8226;	Arvid Naess: Professor of engineering at Norwegian University of Science and Technology
o	His View on 9/11: Debunking 9/11 Conspiracy Theories and Controlled Demolition - The Paper
o	His Credentials: NTNU Institutt for matematiske fag
o	Professor Arvid Naess
&#8226;	Dr Keith Seffen Engineering Professor at Cambridge University 
o	His view on 9/11: BBC NEWS | Science/Nature | 9/11 demolition theory challenged
o	His Credentials: Keith Seffen
&#8226;	Dr. Tim Wilkinson: Professor of engineering at The university of Sydney 
o	His view on 9/11: World Trade Center - Some Engineering Aspects - Civil Engineering - The University of Sydney
o	His credentials: Tim Wilkinson - Civil Engineering - The University of Sydney

*NONE of the preceding were Americans*.  These people would have NO reason to take the time to make up a fictional paper on 9/11.  They have NO incentive at all.

If you want an instance of someone who might not believe what he says, then you can just look at Alex Jones.  He failed at being a Republican politician and at former radio show before making claims that 9/11 was an inside job.  He CLEARLY has made a living doing this now.

That article also sites how a number of the papers that agree with the official story differ from one another.  They are different people with different opinions.  They are not going to come to the exact same conclusion on why the buildings fell.  It also states that apparently schools received grants for creating papers that agree with the govt.  First, I have a hard time believing they can prove that it was directly correlated to this.  Secondly, there are many schools who's engineering professors written papers and they do not even make the claim for a large number of them.   The piece also makes claims that NIST didn't bother to check for any signs of demotion.  Anyone can see from a bit of research that they have made issue to that.  This article drops likes to drop names of experts who disagree with them but never states how they are corrupt.


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## Big_D (Feb 3, 2009)

manu1959 said:


> someone tell me again why we chose to wage war rather than just buy iraq.....



The people who believe in the hoax cannot argue that.  If 9/11 was an inside job, our govt could have just as easily said that the people attacking us were simply from Iraq as oppose to Afghanistan, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, etc.


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## DiveCon (Feb 3, 2009)

Big_D said:


> manu1959 said:
> 
> 
> > someone tell me again why we chose to wage war rather than just buy iraq.....
> ...


and if they could have pulled this off, why didnt they PLANT stockpiles of WMD in Iraq
Hmmmmm


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## Andrew2382 (Feb 3, 2009)

what I love about these cooks is their sense of logic.

They truly believe that 9/11 was devised from the top peaks of our goverment to have us go to war.  It would have involved hundreds of people, from the demolotion to the planning etc..

They did all this, yet if it truly were a conspiracy.

WOULDN'T THEY HAVE HAD JUST 1 TEAM PLANT A NUKE IN IRAQ TO PROVE THERE WERE WMD'S THERE!


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## LA RAM FAN (Feb 3, 2009)

When Hitler is referenced, people don't think of the Reichstag.  If your goal is to convince people, making any reference to Hitler is remarkably dumb, because unless you are talking to the True Believers, everyone else - including the undecided - will say "that's idiotic" since Hitler conjures up visions of genocide and barbarity, not the Reichstag.[/QUOTE]
The goal is to get people to think with more of an open mind about their country, if comparing Bush with Hitler automatically makes people think what you say, then that is proof society is programmed to think a certain way at the mere mention of a name or topic. All one has to do is ask _why_ the comparison is made. That's the problem, no one asks why about anything. Many people today frequently dismiss information without questioning it, without considering it and in many cases without even looking at it. 
Because CNN and FOX news figure it for them [/QUOTE]

exactly,they just automatically accept what the corporate controlled media tells them and brainwashes them with.I've said it before but it always goes ignored,stop listening to what the corporate controlled media tells you and look at alternative news such as MEDIA BYPASS,AMERICAN FREE PRESS AND ROCK CREEK FREE PRESS.

If they would bother and do that,they would see that agencys like the CIA make the third reich look like a bunch of choir boys and you would hear about the autrocities that presidents have committed that rival Hitlers and Stalins.Your not going to hear about them though from the corporate controlled CIA media so STOP LISTENING TO THEM and START reading those other alternative news sources people.as long as you keep going what your doing,your heads will remain buried in the sand like an ostrich which is what they want you to keep doing.


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## LA RAM FAN (Feb 3, 2009)

I was also talking yesterday about how the reason the world is in such a mess that it is and why we have wars all the time is because of the CIA and that was why they killed kennedy cause he wanted to get rid of them.When your a president who wants to do good for the people like kennedy did,they get rid of you.speaking of the CIA since they werre behind 9/11,Harry Truman who created the CIA back in 1947 himself said in later years when he got out of office that creating the CIA was the worst mistake he ever made in his entire time as president,that he created an out of control monster.

When Truman created it,the purpose for creating it in the beginning was to have the CIA Director gather information about other agencys around the world and report directly to the president about it.Thats what their duties WERE in the beginning,but then they became an out of control agency engaging an illegal covert activities starting wars in other countries creating false pretenses for war.Thats how all the drugs get supplied into the country is from the CIA.thats all been documented.Truman later in life realised that was happening and thats when he confessed creating the CIA was the worst mistake he ever made during his time as president and that he had created a monster.


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## Mr. Jones (Feb 3, 2009)

Ok fellas, I can appreciate the questions you all ask, and I readily admit, they are pretty good questions, ie: how the devices were planted, and the amount of people necessary to pull the event off. What I like about those questions is that it at least shows that you guys are thinking about this and in turn makes me think and look into it more. Debate is good and necessary, something experts on both sides need to do, in a public forum, hell if a debate were to be televised with both sides bringing their opinions and hypotheses I bet the ratings would shoot through the roof. But damn it you can't expect one side to have all the answers, the government hasn't even provided what we want or need to know. I think we should change course a bit and see what we DO agree with concerning 9-11. Like, do all agree that this was the first time in history that 3 buildings were totally demolished by fire? Can we agree that the gov has changed its story of the events? Can we agree that there are a shit load of very suspicious or coincidental things that occurred before and after the wtc came down. And can we agree that many documented televised interviews with survivors say that they heard explosions coming from the basements of these buildings? 
I'm just throwing this suggestion out there because we seem to get sidetracked and bounce from one thing to another and it makes it hard to stay focused. I want you all to keep this in mind regarding 9-11 about me personally, I initially believed the official story was plausible, but I kept viewing the videos of the destruction, and damn it It looks like there is a tremendous amount of energy exploding out ward, and the thing that most makes me skeptical of the govs version is the FACT that the towers came down at free fall speed with the bottom solid structure providing nearly NO resistance!! So what  if anything CAN we agree on about all this and let's go from there? Your thoughts??


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## Andrew2382 (Feb 3, 2009)

the enter button is your friend


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## DiveCon (Feb 3, 2009)

Mr. Jones said:


> Ok fellas, I can appreciate the questions you all ask, and I readily admit, they are pretty good questions, ie: how the devices were planted, and the amount of people necessary to pull the event off. What I like about those questions is that it at least shows that you guys are thinking about this and in turn makes me think and look into it more. Debate is good and necessary, something experts on both sides need to do, in a public forum, hell if a debate were to be televised with both sides bringing their opinions and hypotheses I bet the ratings would shoot through the roof. But damn it you can't expect one side to have all the answers, the government hasn't even provided what we want or need to know. I think we should change course a bit and see what we DO agree with concerning 9-11. Like, do all agree that this was the first time in history that 3 buildings were totally demolished by fire? Can we agree that the gov has changed its story of the events? Can we agree that there are a shit load of very suspicious or coincidental things that occurred before and after the wtc came down. And can we agree that many documented televised interviews with survivors say that they heard explosions coming from the basements of these buildings?
> I'm just throwing this suggestion out there because we seem to get sidetracked and bounce from one thing to another and it makes it hard to stay focused. I want you all to keep this in mind regarding 9-11 about me personally, I initially believed the official story was plausible, but I kept viewing the videos of the destruction, and damn it It looks like there is a tremendous amount of energy exploding out ward, and the thing that most makes me skeptical of the govs version is the FACT that the towers came down at free fall speed with the bottom solid structure providing nearly NO resistance!! So what  if anything CAN we agree on about all this and let's go from there? Your thoughts??


the fact is, they DIDNT come down at free fall speed
that is a claim that is unsupported by the facts
to be free fall speed the times you use would mean that the building fell into a hole below ground level
and there was about a 4 story pile
it was NOT free fall


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## Mr. Jones (Feb 3, 2009)

DiveCon said:


> Mr. Jones said:
> 
> 
> > Ok fellas, I can appreciate the questions you all ask, and I readily admit, they are pretty good questions, ie: how the devices were planted, and the amount of people necessary to pull the event off. What I like about those questions is that it at least shows that you guys are thinking about this and in turn makes me think and look into it more. Debate is good and necessary, something experts on both sides need to do, in a public forum, hell if a debate were to be televised with both sides bringing their opinions and hypotheses I bet the ratings would shoot through the roof. But damn it you can't expect one side to have all the answers, the government hasn't even provided what we want or need to know. I think we should change course a bit and see what we DO agree with concerning 9-11. Like, do all agree that this was the first time in history that 3 buildings were totally demolished by fire? Can we agree that the gov has changed its story of the events? Can we agree that there are a shit load of very suspicious or coincidental things that occurred before and after the wtc came down. And can we agree that many documented televised interviews with survivors say that they heard explosions coming from the basements of these buildings?
> ...



I watched a video with a timer next to the falling building. It came down sooner then it should have. Ok is there anything that you agree
with your opposition about, anything at all?


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## DiveCon (Feb 3, 2009)

not when the opposition is WRONG


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## eots (Feb 3, 2009)

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V0GHVEKrhng&feature=related]YouTube - WTC7: NIST Finally Admits Freefall (Part I)[/ame]


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## DiveCon (Feb 3, 2009)

eots said:


> YouTube - WTC7: NIST Finally Admits Freefall (Part I)


i thought you didnt trust the NIST?

btw, that video is NOT NIST, its another one of you F'n NUTTERS


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## Mr. Jones (Feb 4, 2009)

DiveCon said:


> eots said:
> 
> 
> > YouTube - WTC7: NIST Finally Admits Freefall (Part I)
> ...


 You must have skipped the part where the NIST
spokesmen stumbled all over their words. From reading your BS posts in this thread it's obvious you are only interested in ridiculing people since you haven't contributed anything resembling intelligence in your responses. You aren't concerned about 9-11, and probably don''t give a damn about your country, all you want to do is engage in tactics one finds in a school yard at recess,.. pathetic. 
The video clearly shows the NIST reps struggling to come up with answers to difficult questions, and yet all you can up with is
"btw, that video is NOT NIST, its another one of you F'n NUTTERS"
Quit wasting our time and find a thread that fits your IQ level dude.


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## DiveCon (Feb 4, 2009)

Mr. Jones said:


> DiveCon said:
> 
> 
> > eots said:
> ...


assholes like you nutters dont deserve anything BUT ridicule


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## eots (Feb 4, 2009)

poor Little retarded divcon....


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## manu1959 (Feb 4, 2009)

why do buildings free fall.......


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## DiveCon (Feb 4, 2009)

eots said:


> poor Little retarded divcon....


poor eots, cant even spell my name right


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## DiveCon (Feb 4, 2009)

manu1959 said:


> why do buildings free fall.......


when whats holding them up can no longer support the weight


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## eots (Feb 4, 2009)

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=877gr6xtQIc&feature=related]YouTube - Danny Jowenko on WTC 7 controlled demolition[/ame]


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## DiveCon (Feb 4, 2009)

eots said:


> YouTube - Danny Jowenko on WTC 7 controlled demolition


his opinion is based solely on watching sellective video tapes


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## manu1959 (Feb 4, 2009)

DiveCon said:


> manu1959 said:
> 
> 
> > why do buildings free fall.......
> ...



maybe eore can explain how they got the chrages planted on the same floors that the planes hit and no one in any of the offices ever saw anything.....


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## DiveCon (Feb 4, 2009)

manu1959 said:


> DiveCon said:
> 
> 
> > manu1959 said:
> ...


and how the planes crashing into them didnt cause any of the explosives to misfire


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## manu1959 (Feb 4, 2009)

DiveCon said:


> manu1959 said:
> 
> 
> > DiveCon said:
> ...



and why those buildings......and what happend to all the people that weren't in the planes that didn't hit the buildings because the whole thing was fake.....

maybe the buildings are still there.....some type of cloaking device makes them hard to see.....but i hear if you are jewish...or a mason...or a member of skull and bones you can still get in.....


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## DiveCon (Feb 4, 2009)

manu1959 said:


> DiveCon said:
> 
> 
> > manu1959 said:
> ...


dont forget the bilderburgs and Bohemian Grovers or the Illuminatti


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## DiveCon (Feb 4, 2009)

oh and PNAC'rs, CFR'rs, and i'm sure i'm forgetting a few more of the alphabeters


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## LA RAM FAN (Feb 5, 2009)

Andrew2382 said:


> what I love about these cooks is their sense of logic.
> 
> They truly believe that 9/11 was devised from the top peaks of our goverment to have us go to war.  It would have involved hundreds of people, from the demolotion to the planning etc..
> 
> ...



if you werent so afraid of the truth and stop letting the corporate controlled media brainwash you with their lies and propaganda and read alternative news sources like the ones I mentioned,you would know thats all true. it only takes a couple hundred people or so a few months to do it in.

If you would actually look at the videos you would see that the witnesses that said they heard and saw explosions of bright yellow orange lights going on are true.The videos show explosions going off long after the plane hit on the bottom floors and witnesses say the windows were blown out below as well,all impossible since the building hasn't collapsed yet.duh.

Even a kid would know thats impossible.LOL.The videos prove that as well cause there is smoke coming from the ground.the plane hit at the top,there shouldn't  be explosions going off in the ground and smoke rising from the ground with the windows being blown out below and witnesses like willie rodriguez and others wouldnt have seen fire coming from the basement below when the plane hadnt even struck the towers yet with a witnesse on fire emerging yelling-my god,theres explosions going off below..thats you 9/11 apologists cuckoo logic though.


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## LA RAM FAN (Feb 5, 2009)

DiveCon said:


> Mr. Jones said:
> 
> 
> > DiveCon said:
> ...


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## DiveCon (Feb 5, 2009)

9/11 inside job said:


> you must have a really unhappy life in the fact that you got to result to name calling whenever your losing an argument and cant face facts since it scares you so much.


ROFLMAO
no, i am a very happy person
you are the fucking nutter that refuses to admit to facts


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## Luissa (Feb 5, 2009)

I can't believe this thread is 43 pages long!
So was it an inside job?


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## DiveCon (Feb 5, 2009)

Luissa said:


> I can't believe this thread is 43 pages long!
> So was it an inside job?


LOL
the nutters still havent proved it


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## Andrew2382 (Feb 5, 2009)

9/11 inside job said:


> Andrew2382 said:
> 
> 
> > what I love about these cooks is their sense of logic.
> ...




you a fucking kook dude,

First you never answered my question.  If it was a mast goverment conspiracy to make us go  to war, and it involved hundreds of people, then why wouldn't they go all the way and just send 2-5 people and plant a few nukes somewhere in Iraq to make it full circle?

You sound stupid.

Also, all your shit has been debunked over and over...I posted something a few pages back to which none of you tin foil hat people ever respond too.

Keep living in la la land and when you come down to earth let me know


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## DiveCon (Feb 5, 2009)

btw Andrew, Cooks prepare meals, these morons are KOOKS


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## LA RAM FAN (Feb 5, 2009)

Luissa said:


> I can't believe this thread is 43 pages long!
> So was it an inside job?



Yeah I cant believe it is either.Its been going on since october of last year.LOL

To answer the question, yeah it was an inside job but as you can see,these two kids here Andrew and Divecon are so much in denial and afraid of the truth that they engage  in name calling when they cant counter peoples posts.I wonder how the ignore button here works.I dont got time to read the posts of chidren.ah I see how it works now.time to add these two kids to my ignore list.


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## LA RAM FAN (Feb 5, 2009)

DiveCon said:


> btw Andrew, Cooks prepare meals, these morons are KOOKS



yep thats what you two guys are..Andrew and DiveCon the two frady cats.


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## DiveCon (Feb 5, 2009)

9/11 inside job said:


> Luissa said:
> 
> 
> > I can't believe this thread is 43 pages long!
> ...


ROFLMAO
kids!!!!!!
lol
i'm likely old enough to be your dad, you moron
and i'm not scared of anything
'i KNOW the truth
its you thats scared to admit it
you seem to want to believe the stupidity of it being an inside job even though you don't have fact one to back it up


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## Mr. Jones (Feb 5, 2009)

9/11 inside job said:


> DiveCon said:
> 
> 
> > Mr. Jones said:
> ...


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## DiveCon (Feb 5, 2009)

Mr. Jones said:


> I even reached out and tried to ask what if anything we all could agree on and he comes back with responses like that, so it's obvious he isn't here to engage in any insightful dialogue, he's just here to talk shit about people who are sincere about the topic.


oh PALEEZE
LOL
you do not engage in dialogue, you spout nonsense


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## eots (Feb 5, 2009)

*Lt. Col. Shelton F. Lankford, U.S. Marine Corps (ret)  Retired U.S. Marine Corps fighter pilot with over 300 combat missions flown. Decorations include the Distinguished Flying Cross and 32 awards of the Air Medal. Aircraft flown: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk, Lockheed C-130H Hercules. 10,000+ total hours flown. 20-year Marine Corps career*. 

Article Twenty-five U.S. Military Officers Challenge Official Account of 9/11 1/14/08: 

September 11, 2001 seems destined to be the  watershed event of our lives and the greatest test for our democracy in our lifetimes.  The evidence of government complicity in the lead-up to the events, the failure to respond during the event, and the  astounding lack of any meaningful investigation afterwards, as well as the* ignoring of evidence turned up by others that renders the official explanation impossible,* may signal the end of the American experiment.  It has been used to justify all manners of measures to legalize repression at home and as a pretext for behaving as an aggressive empire abroad.  Until we demand an independent, honest, and thorough investigation and accountability for those whose action and inaction led to those events and the cover-up, our republic and our *Constitution remain in the gravest danger. *OpEdNews.Com Progressive, Tough Liberal News and Opinion 


Statement to this website 2/20/07: 

"This isn't about party, it isn't about Bush Bashing. It's about our country, our constitution, and our future. ... 

Your countrymen have been murdered and the *more you delve into it the more it looks as though they were murdered by our government, who used it as an excuse to murder other people thousands of miles away. *
*If you ridicule others who have sincere doubts and who know factual information that directly contradicts the official report and who want explanations from those who hold the keys to our government, and have motive, means, and opportunity to pull off a 9/11, but you are too lazy or fearful, or ... to check into the facts yourself, what does that make you? *Scholars for 9/11 truth have developed reams of scientific data. Michael Ruppert published an exhaustive account of the case from the viewpoint of a trained investigator. David Ray Griffin provides a context for the unanswered or badly answered questions that should nag at anyone who pretends to love this country. 

*Are you afraid that you will learn the truth and you can't handle it? ... *

Do a little research. Google is a wonderful tool. 

What does it all add up to? The Commission was, as was the Warren Commission before it, a dog and pony show ... " Link to full statement 
Patriots Question 9/11 - Responsible Criticism of the 9/11 Commission Report


now who should I pay heed to   this fine gentlemen or someone who struggles with the English language...


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## DiveCon (Feb 5, 2009)

eots said:


> *Lt. Col. Shelton F. Lankford, U.S. Marine Corps (ret)  Retired U.S. Marine Corps fighter pilot with over 300 combat missions flown. Decorations include the Distinguished Flying Cross and 32 awards of the Air Medal. Aircraft flown: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk, Lockheed C-130H Hercules. 10,000+ total hours flown. 20-year Marine Corps career*.
> 
> Article Twenty-five U.S. Military Officers Challenge Official Account of 9/11 1/14/08:
> 
> ...


SoS


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## LA RAM FAN (Feb 7, 2009)

Mr. Jones said:


> 9/11 inside job said:
> 
> 
> > DiveCon said:
> ...


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## DiveCon (Feb 7, 2009)

wow, you are one to talk about brainwashing
LOL
you are so fucking brainwashed by this nonsense you even took the name you did


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## eots (Feb 7, 2009)

DiveCon said:


> wow, you are one to talk about brainwashing
> LOL
> you are so fucking brainwashed by this nonsense you even took the name you did



I am still trying to figure out whats up with the skinny Mexican  diver


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## DiveCon (Feb 7, 2009)

eots said:


> DiveCon said:
> 
> 
> > wow, you are one to talk about brainwashing
> ...


its just a diver
sheeesh
how the fuck could you tell what nationality he has


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## Toro (Feb 7, 2009)

DiveCon said:


> manu1959 said:
> 
> 
> > DiveCon said:
> ...



Hey, you leave us, er, I mean "them" out of this...


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## DiveCon (Feb 7, 2009)

Toro said:


> DiveCon said:
> 
> 
> > manu1959 said:
> ...


the sparrow flies south at dawn Shhh


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## eots (Feb 7, 2009)

DiveCon said:


> Toro said:
> 
> 
> > DiveCon said:
> ...



yes why don't you share your vast knowledge of skull and bones the bohemian grove the participants their agenda and influence on American foreign policy... please...LOL


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## DiveCon (Feb 7, 2009)

eots said:


> DiveCon said:
> 
> 
> > Toro said:
> ...


why?
it would be a waste of time
because you already have your preconcived notiopns that will never change
morons like you are only here to be ridiculed


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## eots (Feb 7, 2009)

or you have no clue and couldn't answer the question in an intelligent manner if your life depended on it


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## RetiredGySgt (Feb 7, 2009)

eots said:


> or you have no clue and couldn't answer the question in an intelligent manner if your life depended on it



Ya cause they are so secret everyone that wants to knows all about them. Jeez someone needs to have a talk with these guys, however do they plan to take over if everyone knows about their nefarious plots and machinations?


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## DiveCon (Feb 7, 2009)

eots said:


> or you have no clue and couldn't answer the question in an intelligent manner if your life depended on it


LOL

you are quite the clown


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## Dr. T. Sanchez (Feb 7, 2009)

There was no conspiracy.


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## DiveCon (Feb 7, 2009)

DR. T. Sanchez said:


> There was no conspiracy.


there was, only not the one these morons talk about
the conspiracy was Bin Ladens


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## eots (Feb 7, 2009)

not one of you losers are informed enough to even hold a valid opinion


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## RetiredGySgt (Feb 7, 2009)

eots said:


> not one of you losers are informed enough to even hold a valid opinion



Once again nut job, how is it you know all about these supposed secret organizations and their nefarious plans?


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## eots (Feb 7, 2009)

RetiredGySgt said:


> eots said:
> 
> 
> > or you have no clue and couldn't answer the question in an intelligent manner if your life depended on it
> ...



they are banking on the fact most people are as ignorant as you... know the dumb downed masses


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## RetiredGySgt (Feb 7, 2009)

eots said:


> RetiredGySgt said:
> 
> 
> > eots said:
> ...



You would be hilarious if I did not know how sick you really are. Seek help. Before it is to late.


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## eots (Feb 7, 2009)

RetiredGySgt said:


> eots said:
> 
> 
> > not one of you losers are informed enough to even hold a valid opinion
> ...



I read the books they write..and essays ..listen to their words.. you have never bothered don't pretend you have...


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## RetiredGySgt (Feb 7, 2009)

eots said:


> RetiredGySgt said:
> 
> 
> > eots said:
> ...



Ya cause secret organizations that SECRETLY plan to run the world publish all their works, plans and member rosters for everyone to read.


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## eots (Feb 7, 2009)

RetiredGySgt said:


> eots said:
> 
> 
> > RetiredGySgt said:
> ...



stop projecting your mental illness on to me ..just because your to ignorant debate the facts


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## eots (Feb 7, 2009)

RetiredGySgt said:


> eots said:
> 
> 
> > RetiredGySgt said:
> ...



some member rosters are released ,,some are leaked..and absolutely in their hubris publish books..would you like me to suggest a few ?

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BbnpN07J_zg]YouTube - Dick Cheney ex-director of CFR talks to David Rockefeller[/ame]


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## eots (Feb 7, 2009)

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Qy97pFDLig&feature=related]YouTube - Barack Obama CFR info[/ame]


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## DiveCon (Feb 7, 2009)

RetiredGySgt said:


> eots said:
> 
> 
> > RetiredGySgt said:
> ...


yeah, and publish on the ineternet
so no one will know


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## eots (Feb 7, 2009)

DiveCon said:


> RetiredGySgt said:
> 
> 
> > eots said:
> ...




you clearly did not view the clips if thats what you think..like I sayi I could direct you to books found in any major library but it would truly be pointless if you can not even absorb the simple information presented in these videos


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## DiveCon (Feb 7, 2009)

eots said:


> DiveCon said:
> 
> 
> > RetiredGySgt said:
> ...


the videos you post are LIES
why would i bother to waste my time when you have proven over and over that you post shit thats nothing but LIES


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## eots (Feb 8, 2009)

how would you in your complete ignorance know what is a lie...these are lame ass excuses ...a back down to the intellectual chalange...you don't bother because to address the issue because you are not capable and would fail...so you try cover the fact..that you have pussied out...


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## Dr. T. Sanchez (Feb 8, 2009)

Eots, did you forget to take your meds?


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## DiveCon (Feb 8, 2009)

eots said:


> how would you in your complete ignorance know what is a lie...these are lame ass excuses ...a back down to the intellectual chalange...you don't bother because to address the issue because you are not capable and would fail...so you try cover the fact..that you have pussied out...


um, when your video is titled "explosives found" and when i watch the video the report didnt say anything about an explosive device
i would say with pretty good certainty that the title was a lie


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## Dr. T. Sanchez (Feb 8, 2009)

eots said:


> how would you in your complete ignorance know what is a lie...these are lame ass excuses ...a back down to the intellectual chalange...you don't bother because to address the issue because you are not capable and would fail...so you try cover the fact..that you have pussied out...



Dude, don't let the CIA steal your brainwaves! I have developed a special hat that can stop the brainwave stealers. It takes some time to build, but you'll thank me when you make it.

Do you have access to plutonium?


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## eots (Feb 8, 2009)

DR. T. Sanchez said:


> Eots, did you forget to take your meds?



and why would you say that ..do you have a opinion on the the issue of the council on foreign relations ? or are you to ignorant or delusional to recognize they exsist..or is it you feel they have no unwarranted influence on foreign and domestic policy ?...are you intimidated by your own ignorance is that why ?






[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2kjsy2Z3kdI]YouTube - CNN Video:Lou Dobbs Slams CFR & North American Union[/ame]



[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VOk6ENxyAh0]YouTube - Brzezinski on CFR, Bilderberg, and Trilateral Commission[/ame]


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## eots (Feb 8, 2009)

DR. T. Sanchez said:


> eots said:
> 
> 
> > how would you in your complete ignorance know what is a lie...these are lame ass excuses ...a back down to the intellectual chalange...you don't bother because to address the issue because you are not capable and would fail...so you try cover the fact..that you have pussied out...
> ...




no one is talking such madness but you..i am speaking about the cfr..a subject you cant comment sensible on because you are completely ignorant of the subject and respond in a manner that you have been programed to by the low end of mass media


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## DiveCon (Feb 8, 2009)

DR. T. Sanchez said:


> eots said:
> 
> 
> > how would you in your complete ignorance know what is a lie...these are lame ass excuses ...a back down to the intellectual chalange...you don't bother because to address the issue because you are not capable and would fail...so you try cover the fact..that you have pussied out...
> ...


does it require 1.21 gigawatts?


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## eots (Feb 8, 2009)

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8y06NSBBRtY]YouTube - Eisenhower warns us of the military industrial complex.[/ame]


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## LA RAM FAN (Feb 9, 2009)

yeah they always conviently ignore that statement by Eisenhower the same way  they always ignore your video you show about JFK warning the people about secret societys.


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