# JFK and the Unspeakable



## Bfgrn (Jul 24, 2009)

JFK and the Unspeakable


Oliver Stone
Award-winning filmmaker
Posted: July 23, 2009 05:05 PM

The murder of President Kennedy was a seminal event for me and for millions of Americans. It changed the course of history. It was a crushing blow to our country and to millions of people around the world. It put an abrupt end to a period of a misunderstood idealism, akin to the spirit of 1989 when the Soviet bloc to began to thaw and 2008, when our new American President was fairly elected.

Today, more than 45 years later, profound doubts persist about how President Kennedy was killed and why. My film JFK was a metaphor for all those doubts, suspicions and unanswered questions. Now an extraordinary new book offers the best account I have read of this tragedy and its significance. That book is James Douglass's JFK and the Unspeakable: Why He Died and Why It Matters. It is a book that deserves the attention of all Americans; it is one of those rare books that, by helping us understand our history, has the power to change it.

The subtitle sums up Douglass's purpose: Why He Died and Why it Matters. In his beautifully written and exhaustively researched treatment, Douglass lays out the "motive" for Kennedy's assassination. Simply, he traces a process of steady conversion by Kennedy from his origins as a traditional Cold Warrior to his determination to pull the world back from the edge of destruction.

Many of these steps are well known, such as Kennedy's disillusionment with the CIA after the disastrous Bay of Pigs Invasion, and his refusal to follow the reckless recommendations of the Joint Chiefs of Staff in resolving the Cuban Missile Crisis. (This in itself was truly JFK's shining moment in the sun. It is likely that any other president from LBJ on would have followed the path to a general nuclear war.) Then there was the Test Ban Treaty and JFK's remarkable American University Speech where he spoke with empathy and compassion about the Soviet people, recognizing our common humanity, the fact that we all "inhabit this small planet. We all breathe the same air. We all cherish our children's futures. And we are all mortal."

But many of his steps remain unfamiliar: Kennedy's back-channel dialogue with Khrushchev and their shared pursuit of common ground; his secret opening to dialogue with Fidel Castro (ongoing the very week of his assassination); and his determination to pull out of Vietnam after his probable re-election in 1964.

All of these steps caused him to be regarded as a virtual traitor by elements of the military-intelligence community. These were the forces that planned and carried out his assassination. Kennedy himself said, in 1962, after he read Seven Days in May, which is about a military coup in the United States, that if he had another Bay of Pigs, the same thing could happen to him. Well, he did have another "Bay of Pigs"; he had several. And I think Kennedy prophesied his own death with those words.

Why does it matter? The death of JFK remains a critical turning point in our history. Those who caused his death were targeting not just a man but a vision -- a vision of peace. There is no calculating the consequences of his death for this country and for the world. Those consequences endure. To a large extent, the fate of our country and the future of the planet continue to be controlled by the shadowy forces of what Douglass calls "the Unspeakable." Only by unmasking these forces and confronting the truth about our history can we restore the promise of democracy and lay claim to Kennedy's vision of peace.

But don't take my word for it. Read this extraordinary book and reach your own conclusions.
Link


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## xsited1 (Jul 24, 2009)

Oliver Stone directs some of the best comedies in hollywood.  One of my favorites was JFK.  It had me rolling in the aisles.


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## Bfgrn (Jul 24, 2009)

xsited1 said:


> Oliver Stone directs some of the best comedies in hollywood.  One of my favorites was JFK.  It had me rolling in the aisles.



So I surmise you believe the Warren Commission got it right? Now THAT is hilarious...


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## Liability (Jul 24, 2009)

Well, the magic bullet theory _was_ the brainchild of Arlen Specter, so there are some really good reasons to take the Warren Commission with at least a grain of salt.


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## rightwinger (Aug 6, 2009)

Bfgrn said:


> xsited1 said:
> 
> 
> > Oliver Stone directs some of the best comedies in hollywood.  One of my favorites was JFK.  It had me rolling in the aisles.
> ...



The Warren Commission did get it right

One day, Lee Harvey Oswald read in the paper that the President was visiting Dallas and that his motorcade would pass right under his window at work. So he brought his gun to work, fired three shots and blew JFKs head off.

Thats all there is....nothing has disproved that scenario in 45 years.


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## Bfgrn (Aug 6, 2009)

rightwinger said:


> Bfgrn said:
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> > xsited1 said:
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REALLY???

The United States House of Representatives Select Committee on Assassinations (HSCA) was established in 1976 to investigate the John F. Kennedy assassination and the Martin Luther King, Jr. assassination. The Committee investigated until 1978, and in 1979 issued its final report, concluding that President John F. Kennedy was assassinated by Lee Harvey Oswald, probably as a result of a conspiracy. The members of this probable conspiracy were not identified. However, the committee noted that it believed that the conspiracy did not include the governments of the Soviet Union or Cuba, nor the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI), the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA), or the Secret Service. It also stated it did not believe the conspiracy was organized by any organized crime group, nor any anti-Castro group, but that it could not rule out individual members of either of those groups acting together.
wiki

I often wondered how a skinny little guy like Oswald was able to move the Texas School Depository Building to the opposite side of Elm St. for 6 seconds, then move it back...







And he must have been quite a guy...he was able to suspend the law of physics too...


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## rightwinger (Aug 6, 2009)

_I often wondered how a skinny little guy like Oswald was able to move the Texas School Depository Building to the opposite side of Elm St. for 6 seconds, then move it back..._

Ohhhhhhh.....Grassy Knoll....thoroughly debunked by recent computer animation showing all three shots having a trajectory from the School Book Depository.
Your claims of "It was definitely a conspiracy....except for Soviets, Cuba, Mafia, CIA......." is laughable.

Want to preach your "Magic Bullet" nonsense next?

Keep them coming


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## Bfgrn (Aug 6, 2009)

rightwinger said:


> _I often wondered how a skinny little guy like Oswald was able to move the Texas School Depository Building to the opposite side of Elm St. for 6 seconds, then move it back..._
> 
> Ohhhhhhh.....Grassy Knoll....thoroughly debunked by recent computer animation showing all three shots having a trajectory from the School Book Depository.
> Your claims of "It was definitely a conspiracy....except for Soviets, Cuba, Mafia, CIA......." is laughable.
> ...



If we're going to have a conversation about President Kennedy's murder, first you need to let ME speak for MYSELF (don't tell me what I believe or don't believe) and second,you need to be able to distinguish WHO said what...

The "your claim" you are laughing at is not MY claim... it is the claim of The United States House of Representatives Select Committee on Assassinations (HSCA)...





CE386

IF you LOOK at Warren Commission exhibit CE 386 the Commission claims the smaller wounds are entrance wounds and the large evulsion is the exit wound of the fatal shot...  So, we are forced to accept that a bullet coming from above and to the right rear of the President, entered his skull traveling downward and to the left would exit _above_ the entrance wound and _to the right_...

http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh16/pdf/WH16_CE_386.pdf







CE385

If you look at CE 385 & 386; the lower small wound is claimed to be the entrance wound of the single bullet. BUT, the REAL entrance wound was *not* in the President's *neck*, as the Commission drawing shows, it was in his *back *at about the level of the 3rd thoracic vertebra...

Here is page 2 of the Official Death Certificate authored and signed by President Kennedy's personal physician, Dr. George Burkley who was never called to testify before the Warren Commission...











Dr. Burkley's location of the wound matches the autopsy face sheet, the President's shirt and his jacket .....BUT....NOT the Warren Commission's RElocated entrance wound to promote the phony single bullet...






"Beyond any question, and I'll never change my opinion, the first bullet did not hit me. The second bullet did hit me."
*Governor John B. Connally*


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## Old Rocks (Aug 6, 2009)

The Italian Carcano fired a 160 grain bullet at about 2300 ft. per second. That is a low velocity weopon, less than a 30-30. It would not make a wound like that on the head of President Kennedy. That wound is far more typical of a 220 Swift, or a 25.06. What happened and why, I do not know. But the wound in Kennedys head was not made by an Italian Carcano.


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## rightwinger (Aug 7, 2009)

> Beyond any question, and I'll never change my opinion, the first bullet did not hit me. The second bullet did hit me."
> Governor John B. Connally



The first bullet missed everyone completely, the second bullet passed through Kennedys throat and hit Connaly, the third bullet blew JFKs head off


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## rightwinger (Aug 7, 2009)

Discovery Channel's reenactment of bullet CE399's path
A Discovery Channel special "Unsolved History: JFK &#8212; Beyond the Magic Bullet", attempted to replicate, as well as possible, the conditions of that day. The participants set up blocks of ballistics gel with a substance similar to human bone inside. *These studies showed that largely undeformed bullets were possible to produce, if they were slowed by a passage though a tissue-like substance before striking bone*. Next, two mannequin figures made of ballistic anatomical substances (animal skin, gelatin, and interior bone-like cast) were set up in the exact relative position of JFK and Connally. A marksman, from a distance equal to that of the sixth floor of the Book Depository building, fired the same rifle model found in the Book Depository, using a round from the same batch of "Western Case Cartridge Company" 6.5x52 mm ammunition purchased with the surplus Carcano weapon in early 1963. *The path of their single bullet (followed by high speed photography) duplicated, almost exactly, the wounds suffered by the victims that day*, the only difference being that the bullet did not quite have enough energy to penetrate the "thigh" substance in front of the Connally figure, because it struck an extra bone in the "rib" model (i.e., it fractured 2 ribs in the model vs. one rib in Connally). It was also slightly more deformed than CE 399, possibly for the same reason. *However, this bullet came close enough to duplicating all wounds in both men with a single shot, with a bullet having little deformation*.


[


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## rightwinger (Aug 7, 2009)

ABC's The Kennedy Assassination: Beyond Conspiracy
In 1993 a computer animator named Dale Myers embarked on a 10-year project to completely render the events of November 22 in 3D computer animation. His results were shown as part of ABC's documentary The Kennedy Assassination: Beyond Conspiracy in 2003, and won an Emmy award.

To render his animation, Myers took photographs, home footage, blueprints and plans, and used them *to create arguably the most accurate computer re-creation of events to that time*. His work was assessed by Z-Axis who have been involved in producing computer generated animations of events, processes and concepts for major litigations in the United States and Europe.

Their assessment concluded that Myers' animation allowed the assassination sequence to be viewed "from any point of view with absolute geometric integrity" and that they "believe that the thoroughness and detail incorporated into his work is well beyond that required to present a fair and accurate depiction
*Myers' animation found that the bullet wounds were consistent with JFK's and Governor Connally's positions at the time of shooting, and that by following the bullet's trajectory backwards could be found to have originated from a narrow cone including only a few windows of the sixth floor of the School Book Depository*, one of which was the sniper's nest of boxes from which the rifle barrel had been seen protruding by witnesses.

In the same ABC documentary, Myers uses a close-up examination of the Zapruder film to justify the "single bullet theory." He points out a little-known anomaly on the Zapruder film. When Kennedy's limousine appears from behind the street sign in Dealey Plaza, there is a moment &#8212; seen between frames 223 and 224 on the Zapruder film &#8212; where the right side lapel of Governor Connally's jacket appears to "pop out," as if being pushed from within by an unseen force. Myers theorizes that this is the moment of impact, when both Kennedy and Connally were struck by the same bullet from Oswald's rifle. *Myers also points out that &#8212; in frames 225-230 of the Zapruder film, as Kennedy appears from behind the street sign &#8212; both Kennedy and Connally are simultaneously reacting in pain to the impact of the bullet*.


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## Bfgrn (Aug 7, 2009)

rightwinger said:


> Discovery Channel's reenactment of bullet CE399's path
> A Discovery Channel special "Unsolved History: JFK  Beyond the Magic Bullet", attempted to replicate, as well as possible, the conditions of that day. The participants set up blocks of ballistics gel with a substance similar to human bone inside. *These studies showed that largely undeformed bullets were possible to produce, if they were slowed by a passage though a tissue-like substance before striking bone*. Next, two mannequin figures made of ballistic anatomical substances (animal skin, gelatin, and interior bone-like cast) were set up in the exact relative position of JFK and Connally. A marksman, from a distance equal to that of the sixth floor of the Book Depository building, fired the same rifle model found in the Book Depository, using a round from the same batch of "Western Case Cartridge Company" 6.5x52 mm ammunition purchased with the surplus Carcano weapon in early 1963. *The path of their single bullet (followed by high speed photography) duplicated, almost exactly, the wounds suffered by the victims that day*, the only difference being that the bullet did not quite have enough energy to penetrate the "thigh" substance in front of the Connally figure, because it struck an extra bone in the "rib" model (i.e., it fractured 2 ribs in the model vs. one rib in Connally). It was also slightly more deformed than CE 399, possibly for the same reason. *However, this bullet came close enough to duplicating all wounds in both men with a single shot, with a bullet having little deformation*.
> 
> 
> [



Whoa there cowboy...we're talking the law of physics...You've been confronted with physical and medical evidence that the path of a single bullet passing through the President and hitting the Governor in the back is not possible... you really need to explain in detail HOW a bullet entering the President's back at the level of the third thoracic vertebra traveling on a downward and to the left angle from a sixth floor window can exit his throat from a wound six inches higher?

THEN, you've been confronted with physical and medical evidence that the path of the fatal head wound came from the other side of the street. And again, you claim a bullet traveling on a downward and to the left angle from a sixth floor window exits a wound that is HIGHER and to the right of the entrance wound??

THEN, you need to explain how that bullet traveling on a downward and to the left angle from a sixth floor window hit the President in the back of the head and didn't exit through the President's face???

AND, You say the first shot missed....tell me, where did it go?


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## Old Rocks (Aug 7, 2009)

So, one round goes through soft tissue with little deformation and not much damage to that tissue. Not untypical for a low velocity full jacketed bullet. But the next bullet completely blows out the side of Kennedys skull. Same cartridge, same rifle, same distance. Sorry, that didn't happen. What did happen, I don't know. But it was not a round fired by the Carcano that blew apart President Kennedy's skull.


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## rightwinger (Aug 7, 2009)

Whoa there cowboy...we're talking the law of physics...You've been confronted with physical and medical evidence that the path of a single bullet passing through the President and hitting the Governor in the back is not possible... you really need to explain in detail HOW a bullet entering the President's back at the level of the third thoracic vertebra traveling on a downward and to the left angle from a sixth floor window can exit his throat from a wound six inches higher?

*It was fully explained by the Myers animation. The major problem with the "magic bullet" theory was that they wrongly placed John Conally in the front passenger seat. In fact, he was in a jump seat which was located "down and to the left" of the president. That and the fact that the vehicle was headed downhill which raised the president up higher*

THEN, you've been confronted with physical and medical evidence that the path of the fatal head wound came from the other side of the street. And again, you claim a bullet traveling on a downward and to the left angle from a sixth floor window exits a wound that is HIGHER and to the right of the entrance wound??

* wrong again, the grassy knoll theory of the direction of the bullet was disproved 20 years ago. You really need to get more up to date conspiracy nonsense*

THEN, you need to explain how that bullet traveling on a downward and to the left angle from a sixth floor window hit the President in the back of the head and didn't exit through the President's face???

*Once again fully demonstrated by accredited computer animation that the angles line up with the wounds. The bullet blew out the side of JFKs head*

AND, You say the first shot missed....tell me, where did it go? 

*Oswalds first shot missed and hit the curb around the presidents vehicle. This fact has been documented since 1963*


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## rightwinger (Aug 7, 2009)

Care to discuss Jack Ruby now?


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## Bfgrn (Aug 8, 2009)

rightwinger said:


> Whoa there cowboy...we're talking the law of physics...You've been confronted with physical and medical evidence that the path of a single bullet passing through the President and hitting the Governor in the back is not possible... you really need to explain in detail HOW a bullet entering the President's back at the level of the third thoracic vertebra traveling on a downward and to the left angle from a sixth floor window can exit his throat from a wound six inches higher?
> 
> *It was fully explained by the Myers animation. The major problem with the "magic bullet" theory was that they wrongly placed John Conally in the front passenger seat. In fact, he was in a jump seat which was located "down and to the left" of the president. That and the fact that the vehicle was headed downhill which raised the president up higher*
> 
> ...



You are really reaching with your wacky Myers' crap... the guy had to make President Kennedy into a hunchback wearing his jacket like a cape to fudge his cartoon. PLUS, Myers made more than one cartoon, in the first cartoon he placed the "entrance" wound in the FALSE "NECK" location based on the Warren Report. In his second cartoon, he MOVED the wound and disfigured Kennedy...10 years DOWN the f_ckin' drain...LOL. I don't care if Governor Connally was sitting on JFK's lap and the limousine was dropped off a cliff, the trajectory of the "magic" bullet, the location of the "entrance" wound and the supposed "exit" wound DON'T line up...






IF the first bullet missed, it was fired before the limousine came from behind the Stemmons Freeway sign in the Zapruder film...the 6th floor window site had a TREE in the way...AND the bullet that missed hit a curb much farther down Elm Street and a fragment hit James Teague in the cheek...Teague was standing near the triple overpass, WAY down the street...






You have to get past the FIRST wound...without it, it was MORE than one gunman...

You're WAY behind cowboy, and I haven't even gotten to the Dallas doctors professional observations and consensus of the President's wounds...











[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OpBDuSJeH14]YouTube - Interview - Dr. Charles Crenshaw[/ame]


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## Midnight Marauder (Aug 8, 2009)

Pshaw! Here we are in the 21st Century, three years after EVERY JFK assassination conspiracy has been thoroughly debunked, and we still have some idiots who take OLIVER STONE as some kind of expert on it?


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## Gunny (Aug 8, 2009)

Bfgrn said:


> JFK and the Unspeakable
> 
> 
> Oliver Stone
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Any similarity between Oliver Stone and actual history is purely coincidental.


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## Bfgrn (Aug 8, 2009)

Midnight Marauder said:


> Pshaw! Here we are in the 21st Century, three years after EVERY JFK assassination conspiracy has been thoroughly debunked, and we still have some idiots who take OLIVER STONE as some kind of expert on it?




Debunked by WHOM?

Oliver Stone is only a poster boy and whipping boy for right wing pea brains like you... no one that has studied the JFK assassination takes Stone's movie as a documentary...

If YOU can explain how the law of physics took a 6 second vacation on November 22, 1963 at 12:30 CST please enlighten me...

OR, I could just forget the law of physics, and just SWALLOW like you...

Interesting...the Warren Commission came the the SAME conclusion J Edgar Hoover and President Johnson concluded three days after the assassination...as this memo from the Justice Dept to the President's assistant lays out...

---------------------------------------------------------------------------


*Memo from Nicholas deB. Katzenbach, Deputy Attorney General*

November 25, 1963

MEMORANDUM FOR MR. MOYERS

    It is important that all of the facts surrounding President Kennedy's Assassination be made public in a way which will satisfy people in the United States and abroad that all the facts have been told and that a statement to this effect be made now.

    1. The public must be satisfied that Oswald was the assassin; that he did not have confederates who are still at large; and that the evidence was such that he would have been convicted at trial.

    2. Speculation about Oswald's motivation ought to be cut off, and we should have some basis for rebutting thought that this was a Communist conspiracy or (as the Iron Curtain press is saying) a right-wing conspiracy to blame it on the Communists. Unfortunately the facts on Oswald seem about too pat-- too obvious (Marxist, Cuba, Russian wife, etc.). The Dallas police have put out statements on the Communist conspiracy theory, and it was they who were in charge when he was shot and thus silenced.

    3. The matter has been handled thus far with neither dignity nor conviction. Facts have been mixed with rumor and speculation. We can scarcely let the world see us totally in the image of the Dallas police when our President is murdered.

    I think this objective may be satisfied by making public as soon as possible a complete and thorough FBI report on Oswald and the assassination. This may run into the difficulty of pointing to in- consistencies between this report and statements by Dallas police officials. But the reputation of the Bureau is such that it may do the whole job. The only other step would be the appointment of a Presidential Commission of unimpeachable personnel to review and examine the evidence and announce its conclusions. This has both advantages and disadvantages. It think it can await publication of the FBI report and public reaction to it here and abroad.

    I think, however, that a statement that all the facts will be made public property in an orderly and responsible way should be made now. We need something to head off public speculation or Congressional hearings of the wrong sort.

    Nicholas deB. Katzenbach

    Deputy Attorney General

FBI JFK Assassination File (62-109060)


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## Bfgrn (Aug 8, 2009)

Gunny said:


> Bfgrn said:
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Hey Gunny, your head's on fire and your brain has been incinerated...


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## Liability (Aug 8, 2009)

Gunny said:


> * * * *
> Any similarity between Oliver Stone and actual history is purely coincidental.


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## noonereal (Aug 8, 2009)

This is a ridiculous thread. Maybe put all that thought into something worth while?
Never mind, you'd come up with the result anyway.


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## LA RAM FAN (Aug 8, 2009)

xsited1 said:


> Oliver Stone directs some of the best comedies in hollywood.  One of my favorites was JFK.  It had me rolling in the aisles.



so the government of the united states murdering someone is funny to you.I see.Bill Clinton and and the Bush presidents love your kind.


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## elvis (Aug 8, 2009)

9/11 inside job said:


> xsited1 said:
> 
> 
> > Oliver Stone directs some of the best comedies in hollywood.  One of my favorites was JFK.  It had me rolling in the aisles.
> ...



Yes it's hilarious.  Now go fuck yourself.


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## elvis (Aug 8, 2009)

noonereal said:


> This is a ridiculous thread. Maybe put all that thought into something worth while?
> Never mind, you'd come up with the result anyway.



You are encouraging him to come up with a thread on how the Kennedys have never done anything wrong in their lives.


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## Liability (Aug 8, 2009)

9/11 inside job said:


> xsited1 said:
> 
> 
> > Oliver Stone directs some of the best comedies in hollywood.  One of my favorites was JFK.  It had me rolling in the aisles.
> ...



There is zero evidence supporting the claim that the assissination of President Kennedy was part of any "government" conspiracy.

There IS some reason to believe that if Lee Harvey Oswald was involved in the assassination of President Kennedy at all, that he did not act alone.  But that he might have had some accomplices in some kind of a conspiracy is FAR from evidence that the government was implicated in any way.

There is even less evidence that the 9-11-2001 atroctites were inflicted on Americans by our own government.

There is SOLID evidence that YOU are an imbecile.


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## LA RAM FAN (Aug 8, 2009)

Midnight Marauder said:


> Pshaw! Here we are in the 21st Century, three years after EVERY JFK assassination conspiracy has been thoroughly debunked, and we still have some idiots who take OLIVER STONE as some kind of expert on it?



the only idiots are the ones that ignore the facts that Oliver stone has documented in his film of his.I know cause that film got me interested in the assassination to where I read over a 100 books on it and interviewed witnesses that were there that day.Stone was a 100 times closer to the truth than the fairy tale warren comission was.your right about the Obama thing though,Sealybobo I know is blind to Obama's shortcomings,the other poster you just showed,displayed his/hers as well.


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## LA RAM FAN (Aug 8, 2009)

Liability said:


> 9/11 inside job said:
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other way around,solid evidence YOU are an imbecile living in denial.

theres tons of evidence out there that proves it,just cause you dont want to see it doesnt mean there isnt.

also there is even far more evidence that 9/11 was an inside job even more so than there is that the kennedy assassination was an inside job.again just because you only see what you WANT to see,doesnt mean people like me and this thread starter are imbeciles.You and the other deniars clearly are though.


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## Liability (Aug 8, 2009)

9/11 inside job said:


> Liability said:
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> 
> > 9/11 inside job said:
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No.  There is absolutely no CREDIBLE rational believable evidence that any sane person would place stock in.

You "troofers" are quite plainly goobers.  Clinical.  Dopey.  Stupid.  Nuts.  Oh, and boring as hell.


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## LA RAM FAN (Aug 8, 2009)

rightwinger said:


> Bfgrn said:
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> > xsited1 said:
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The Warren Commission got it right? your hysterical.Even the house select committe on assassinations done in the 70's concluded the warren commission was wrong,that his assassination was the result of a probably conspiracy but were unable to locate the other shooter. hundreds of things like the evidence he has presented has disproved that fairy tale of the warren commissions from 45 years ago. Congressmen Hale Boggs of the warren commission even said he resigned from the commission cause they ignored evidence of a conspiracy and dismissed key items of evidence. also Gaston Fonzi who was a congressmen on the house select committe on assassinations who also resigned from that commission wrote a book about that investigation called THE LAST INVESTIGATION and he talked about how he resigned as well from that commission cause they ignored key evidence and facts and that they also had no interest in finding out the truth.


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## LA RAM FAN (Aug 8, 2009)

Old Rocks said:


> The Italian Carcano fired a 160 grain bullet at about 2300 ft. per second. That is a low velocity weopon, less than a 30-30. It would not make a wound like that on the head of President Kennedy. That wound is far more typical of a 220 Swift, or a 25.06. What happened and why, I do not know. But the wound in Kennedys head was not made by an Italian Carcano.



It sure wasnt.the gun Carcano rifle they found was a piece of crap incapable of firing the weapon.The scope was badly misaligned for one thing they discovered when they tried to fire the weapon.


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## LA RAM FAN (Aug 8, 2009)

rightwinger said:


> > Beyond any question, and I'll never change my opinion, the first bullet did not hit me. The second bullet did hit me."
> > Governor John B. Connally
> 
> 
> ...



impossible to have been done as his illustration proves.Kennedy had an entrance wound below his shoulder and the doctors all agreed that he had an entrance wound to the forehead.His face would not exist if it happened in the fairy tale warren commissions way.anybody who knows anything about forensics also knows your head doesnt go violently backward when shot from the back as well.The jetstream effect the government likes to use as the official excuse for that has all been proven to be lies as well.wow people here are in serious denial on this. got to have a magic bullet that has never been created in the history of mankind to accomplish the miracle the warren commission has propagated all these years.

Not only does the physical and forensic evidence disprove the warren commissions fairy tale,but witness testimony and film footage back up their claims as well that witnesses saw a shooter behind the picket fence firing a rifle which you can see in photos taken that day as well.LOL.we know it was the CIA behind it all because during the winding down of the HSCA investigation,two CIA men came forward and confessed they did it.They came forward and said-we did this,we pulled it off,where do you want to go with this investigation? and of course the HSCA did not investigate it cause they ignored anything that pointed towards government involvement which is why Gaston Fonzi resigned from that investigation. You can go up to the national archives in washington and view for yourselfs there the archives where the two CIA men came forward and confessed they did it.I been there,I have seen it myself.of course your never going to hear the corporate controlled owned media ever mention this.


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## Bfgrn (Aug 8, 2009)

9/11 inside job said:


> Liability said:
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> 
> > 9/11 inside job said:
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PLEASE go somewhere else if you're even thinking about trying to turn this thread into another 911 debate...


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## rightwinger (Aug 8, 2009)

Lee Harvey Oswald read in the paper that JFK was visiting Dallas and his parade would pass right by his window at work. So he brought his gun to work, fired three shots and blew JFKs head off.

Some conspiracy


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## LA RAM FAN (Aug 8, 2009)

So I surmise you believe the Warren Commission got it right? Now THAT is hilarious...[/QUOTE]

yeah thats the funniest comedy of the century.


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## LA RAM FAN (Aug 8, 2009)

Bfgrn said:


> 9/11 inside job said:
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> > Liability said:
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Believe me Im not.I only mentioned it cause HE brought it up.I have no intention of wanting to talk about that on THIS thread.thats my ONLY comment I have about it.If HE wants to continue it,tell HIM to pm me cause like I said,"I" had no intention of talking about that on this thread till he brought it up.


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## LA RAM FAN (Aug 8, 2009)

rightwinger said:


> Lee Harvey Oswald read in the paper that JFK was visiting Dallas and his parade would pass right by his window at work. So he brought his gun to work, fired three shots and blew JFKs head off.
> 
> Some conspiracy



we just proved Oswald could not have fired the weapon and the warren commission is a fairy tale.Not our fault your in denial.


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## Bfgrn (Aug 8, 2009)

9/11 inside job said:


> Bfgrn said:
> 
> 
> > 9/11 inside job said:
> ...



Thanks...


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## LA RAM FAN (Aug 8, 2009)

rightwinger said:


> Whoa there cowboy...we're talking the law of physics...You've been confronted with physical and medical evidence that the path of a single bullet passing through the President and hitting the Governor in the back is not possible... you really need to explain in detail HOW a bullet entering the President's back at the level of the third thoracic vertebra traveling on a downward and to the left angle from a sixth floor window can exit his throat from a wound six inches higher?
> 
> *It was fully explained by the Myers animation. The major problem with the "magic bullet" theory was that they wrongly placed John Conally in the front passenger seat. In fact, he was in a jump seat which was located "down and to the left" of the president. That and the fact that the vehicle was headed downhill which raised the president up higher*
> 
> ...



Everytime the government defends the warren commission, they always resort to using computer animation with THEORYS instead of facts. they ignore witness testimony,film footage and forensic and medical evidence.


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## Bfgrn (Aug 8, 2009)

rightwinger said:


> Lee Harvey Oswald read in the paper that JFK was visiting Dallas and his parade would pass right by his window at work. So he brought his gun to work, fired three shots and blew JFKs head off.
> 
> Some conspiracy



Translation...you have no answers to my questions and you give up...

How typical of the disingenuous...you start out with a roar and leave with a peep...


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## LA RAM FAN (Aug 8, 2009)

noonereal said:


> This is a ridiculous thread. Maybe put all that thought into something worth while?
> Never mind, you'd come up with the result anyway.



well yeah the fairy tales people here are telling like that the warren commission was right make this a rediculous thread.Things like the opening post on this thread are all factual stuff though that many people here are obviously in denial about though.


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## LA RAM FAN (Aug 8, 2009)

Liability said:


> 9/11 inside job said:
> 
> 
> > Liability said:
> ...



so you resort to name calling when you cant back up your points.gotcha.


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## rightwinger (Aug 8, 2009)

_Lee Harvey Oswald read in the paper that JFK was visiting Dallas and his parade would pass right by his window at work. So he brought his gun to work, fired three shots and blew JFKs head off.

Some conspiracy_

Nobody has yet to disprove this FACT
Your decades old conspiracy lies have been ridiculed and disproved for years.


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## Bfgrn (Aug 8, 2009)

rightwinger said:


> _Lee Harvey Oswald read in the paper that JFK was visiting Dallas and his parade would pass right by his window at work. So he brought his gun to work, fired three shots and blew JFKs head off.
> 
> Some conspiracy_
> 
> ...



Gee did you forget already???

The United States House of Representatives Select Committee on Assassinations (HSCA) was established in 1976 to investigate the John F. Kennedy assassination and the Martin Luther King, Jr. assassination. The Committee investigated until 1978, and in 1979 issued its final report, concluding that President John F. Kennedy was assassinated by Lee Harvey Oswald, probably as a result of a conspiracy. The members of this probable conspiracy were not identified. However, the committee noted that it believed that the conspiracy did not include the governments of the Soviet Union or Cuba, nor the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI), the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA), or the Secret Service. It also stated it did not believe the conspiracy was organized by any organized crime group, nor any anti-Castro group, but that it could not rule out individual members of either of those groups acting together.
wiki


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## Liability (Aug 8, 2009)

9/11 inside job said:


> Liability said:
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> 
> > 9/11 inside job said:
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When you blather, there's no point to refute.

You and your mentally ill ilk make silly sick claims.  You have no credible evidence to support them.  Forget the JFK assassination.  Your username is proof enough that you are a freakin' loon.   

If one were to accept the foolishness that you espouse (even if there's no rational basis on Earth to do so), *one would have to accept*, _as true_, *the premise that the United States government saw something of value in causing all the horrors and consequential damages brought about by the 9/11/2001 atrocities.*

Troofers are universally absurd.


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## geauxtohell (Aug 8, 2009)

Bfgrn said:


> My film JFK.......



Was a farce that glorified an unethical and ruthless prosecuter, Jim Garrison, on his witch hunt against Clay Shaw, an innocent man.  Garrison likely got away with targeting Shaw simply because Shaw was homosexual.


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## geauxtohell (Aug 8, 2009)

Liability said:


> 9/11 inside job said:
> 
> 
> > xsited1 said:
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My God.

Somebody shake me.  I agree with liability.


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## rightwinger (Aug 8, 2009)

I guess that seals it then..

*probably *as a result of a conspiracy. The members of this probable conspiracy were not identified. However, the committee noted that it believed that the conspiracy *did not include the governments of the Soviet Union or Cuba, nor the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI), the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA), or the Secret Service*. It also stated *it did not believe the conspiracy was organized by any organized crime group, nor any anti-Castro group,* but that it could not rule out individual members of either of those groups acting together.

Yeah right...It was "probably" (but maybe not) the result of a conspiracy. And we can be sure it was not a conspiracy of Soviet Union, Cuba, CIA, FBI, Mafia or an anti-Castro Group......
That really lays it down...who exactly is left for this "conspiracy"???
If it was a conspiracy, who would conspire with a loser like Oswald?   He was already a one man conspiracy. He had already tried an assasination and everyone he tried to link up with told him to go to hell


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## Gunny (Aug 8, 2009)

Bfgrn said:


> Gunny said:
> 
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> > Bfgrn said:
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Work a long time on that snappy comeback did you?


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## Gunny (Aug 8, 2009)

9/11 inside job said:


> Midnight Marauder said:
> 
> 
> > Pshaw! Here we are in the 21st Century, three years after EVERY JFK assassination conspiracy has been thoroughly debunked, and we still have some idiots who take OLIVER STONE as some kind of expert on it?
> ...



Correction.  The idiots are the ones that see ghosts.  And don't know how to shoot.  For a Marine, the shots Oswald took were closer than where we START shooting on the range (200 meters).  

Oliver Stone's made a fortune sucking money out of grapenuts like you who can't see the forest for all the trees.


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## Gunny (Aug 8, 2009)

9/11 inside job said:


> Liability said:
> 
> 
> > 9/11 inside job said:
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I'll bet you're great at parties.  Just bust out the Inkblot Test on YOU and the hilarity begins.


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## Gunny (Aug 8, 2009)

Okay ... I confess ... it was me.  That I was only 3 years old and living in Karamursel, Turkey is just all part of the plot.


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## Old Rocks (Aug 8, 2009)

I was 20 years old at the time of the assination. I had actually fired a Italian Carcano and was familiar with the ballistics and the power of the cartridge. The gun was accurate enough, and I am told that Oswald was an excellent shot. However, the type of wound in Kennedy's skull simply was not what a Carcano was capable of, particularly at that range. I was and am in no position to know exactly what happened, but the one thing I do understand is that the Carcano was not the rifle that blew Kennedys head apart.


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## rightwinger (Aug 8, 2009)

The Carcano has been test fired using bullets from the same lot that Oswald used and yes it was found fully capable of blowing JFKs head off.


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## Liability (Aug 8, 2009)

Gunny said:


> Okay ... I confess ... it was me.  That I was only 3 years old and living in Karamursel, Turkey is just all part of the plot.



If you were in Turkey,

that's either the best alibi 

OR

that was one HELL of a set of shots!


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## Gunny (Aug 9, 2009)

Liability said:


> Gunny said:
> 
> 
> > Okay ... I confess ... it was me.  That I was only 3 years old and living in Karamursel, Turkey is just all part of the plot.
> ...



Marksmanship training, especially for 3 years olds, is a priority in the Marines.


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## Liability (Aug 9, 2009)

Gunny said:


> Liability said:
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Taking into account the curvature of the Earth as well as atmospheric conditions over that vast distance to strike a small object which you can't even see -- much less doing so at the age of three?!?   The Marine priority and training is nothing less than incredible!  Hell of a shot.


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## WillowTree (Aug 9, 2009)

start from the beginning,, read "Death of a President" by William Manchester.

then read all the conspiracy theories.. it was Oswald. Mob, Ruby Oswald


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## HUGGY (Aug 9, 2009)

xsited1 said:


> Oliver Stone directs some of the best comedies in hollywood.  One of my favorites was JFK.  It had me rolling in the aisles.



You think a president getting assasinated is humorous?  I've about had it with you ...you sorry piece of shit.


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## Liability (Aug 9, 2009)

HUGGY said:


> xsited1 said:
> 
> 
> > Oliver Stone directs some of the best comedies in hollywood.  One of my favorites was JFK.  It had me rolling in the aisles.
> ...



No no.  Try not to always be so dim.

Assassination bad.

Dishonest movie about assassination comical.

Personally, I accept that it took more than one gunman to murder President Kennedy.  But, even so, the movie about the assassination by Ollie Stone, the lying imbecile libbie,  is just ridiculous.


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## editec (Aug 9, 2009)

This is a rathole I refuse to go down because there is far too much conflicting informtion that makes it impossible for layman who cannot establish the credientials, credibility or the  agendas of the informants, to come to any conclusions.

I have long doubted the Warren report got it entirely right, however.

But what I do NOT have is any conspiracy theory about what actually did happen.


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## Bfgrn (Aug 9, 2009)

editec said:


> This is a rathole I refuse to go down because there is far too much conflicting informtion that makes it impossible for layman who cannot establish the credientials, credibility or the  agendas of the informants, to come to any conclusions.
> 
> I have long doubted the Warren report got it entirely right, however.
> 
> But what I do NOT have is any conspiracy theory about what actually did happen.



I don't know who killed the President, but I do understand that the law of physics always apply...

I also know that eye witnesses are usually discounted, but when a whole group of doctors agree on the location and nature of a person's wounds and they are in direct conflict with the "official" findings, it is grounds for very DEEP skepticism...

The Warren Commission had to rely totally on the FBI for evidence...and when the FBI Director and the President (LBJ) have phone conversations and memos about how to make sure Oswald is seen as the only gunman, and the importance of cutting off any conspiracy speculation, it adds more fuel to the skepticism fire...

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sh0-2Sthn9A]YouTube - The Large Back of the Head Wound[/ame]


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## LA RAM FAN (Aug 10, 2009)

Liability said:


> HUGGY said:
> 
> 
> > xsited1 said:
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thanks again for showing you only see what you WANT to see like so many other posters here.


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## Liability (Aug 10, 2009)

9/11 inside job said:


> Liability said:
> 
> 
> > HUGGY said:
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The comedy keeps coming.   I see what happened.  I do NOT "see" the lunatic garbage you "see."  The stuff which morons like *you* "see" are nothing more and nothing less than paranoid delusions.


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## LA RAM FAN (Aug 10, 2009)

oh since you responded so quickly,hope you enjoyed talking to yourself frady cat denial,cause I was done with you a long time ago after you proved you only see what you WANT to see by ignoring my facts I posted.


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## Liability (Aug 10, 2009)

9/11 inside job said:


> oh since you responded so quickly,hope you enjoyed talking to yourself frady cat denial,cause I was done with you a long time ago after you proved you only see what you WANT to see by ignoring my facts I posted.



And yet, you responded pretty much immediately yourself.



By the way,  my denial of your completely imbecilic and baseless contentions has nothing to do with "_frady_" cat anything.   [Your functional illliteracy is almost as amusing as your paranoid delusional thinking.]  My denial is instead premised on the FACTS.

FACTS:  Those are the things that make you and your idiot ilk wet your panties.


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## BolshevikHunter (Aug 10, 2009)

Liability said:


> Well, the magic bullet theory _was_ the brainchild of Arlen Specter, so there are some really good reasons to take the Warren Commission with at least a grain of salt.



Yep, He's clearly one of the most disgusting carpetbaggers in D.C. ~BH


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## HUGGY (Aug 10, 2009)

Liability said:


> HUGGY said:
> 
> 
> > xsited1 said:
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The secret service recently revealed that threats against the president have gone up
 400%.  Tell me something big shot? If by some strange circumstance you were in a situation where you were the first to see someone pull out a gun and aim it at Obama...would you act or just stand there?  That's what I thought.  You are a major pussy and unamerican.  Go fuck yourself.  I swear to my dead relatives I would.  We can't prove it here but just say the words pissant.  Show your true colors..I dare you.


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## Liability (Aug 10, 2009)

HUGGY said:


> Liability said:
> 
> 
> > HUGGY said:
> ...



You are an amazng imbecile.  You "ask" a question and _in the space of the very next sentence_ in that same post you pretend that I not only answered, but that you know what my answer would be or what I'd do.  

If I went looking for working definition of "imbecile," it would be difficult to find a more classic example than you and that bit of sophistry.  (And there are a few huge contenders here at USMB for the title of most stupid.  You are one of the front-runners.)

I would never stand idly by and permit some schmuck to assassinate the President of the United States -- even one like President Obama whom I hold in extremely low esteem.

An ass like you would probably applaud if someone had taken a shot at President Bush.  Uber-mindless-partisans such as you tend to think that way.  But for MOST of us (conservatives *and* libs), WE (this excludes morons like you, of course) believe that killing one of our elected officials is not just a crime against that politician, but a crime against ALL of us and our Republic.

I want President Obama out of Office, but barring an impeachment and conviction, I (and most of the rest of us -- not counting jerks like you) believe there is already a perfectly valid and proper way of accomplishing that:  the ballot.

Complete jackass morons like you should never attempt to speak for me.  You can barely grunt out words for yourself, you reject.


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## LA RAM FAN (Aug 10, 2009)

HUGGY said:


> Liability said:
> 
> 
> > HUGGY said:
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Dont bother with this idiot.He only see's what he WANTS to see like so many others that have posted on this thread.I know if I had been one of those agents for kennedy back then,"I" wouldnt have slept on the job and not care about Kennedys life like they did..For Kennedy,if I had known about how he was trying to do good things for the american people like he was and wanted to get rid of the military industrial complex -"that eisenhower warned the american people to be aware of in his farewell address,if I had known all that about Kennedy,I would have taken a bullet for him back then.He was the last true president we had that wasnt a puppet for the military industrial complex and thats what got him killed.

Obama? he's just another one of their obediant puppets that will do what they tell him to do.HIM I would just let the government kill off.He's an evil son of bitch like every president we have had since kennedy.


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## Liability (Aug 10, 2009)

9/11 inside job said:


> HUGGY said:
> 
> 
> > Liability said:
> ...



Translate that into Latin and emblazon those words on your family crest!  

We have found the Motto of you simple-minded Troofers.


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## HUGGY (Aug 11, 2009)

9/11 inside job said:


> HUGGY said:
> 
> 
> > Liability said:
> ...



I bother with all neo con comers.  That is why I am here.  Just call it payback for fucking up the republican party.


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## LA RAM FAN (Aug 11, 2009)

suit yourself.you said fucking up the republican party.Like I said,every president we have had since kennedy has been a puppet for the elite-the bankers and the military industrial complex,both partys are corrupt,neither is for the people,thats why we need a third party created if were ever going to get america back.you DO know that dont you?


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## BolshevikHunter (Aug 11, 2009)

9/11 inside job said:


> suit yourself.you said fucking up the republican party.Like I said,every president we have had since kennedy has been a puppet for the elite-the bankers and the military industrial complex,both partys are corrupt,neither is for the people,thats why we need a third party created if were ever going to get america back.you DO know that dont you?



Without a doubt both Parties are corrupt. And yes, Both of them are ruled by International Bankers. Though I have pushed hard for a way out of the two Party sheople system myself for years, Look what we ended up with now? Nothing could be worse then the madman Obama, nothing whatsoever. By the time we get a Third Party that has a chance this Nation will be finished. What we need is for The GOP to return to it's Conservative roots. We need better leaders. People who honor the Constitution like Ron Paul (though I don't agree with everything Paul says).That is a more realistic approach my friend. ~BH


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## LA RAM FAN (Aug 11, 2009)

BolshevikHunter said:


> 9/11 inside job said:
> 
> 
> > Without a doubt both Parties are corrupt. And yes, Both of them are ruled by International Bankers. Though I have pushed hard for a way out of the two Party sheople system myself for years, Look what we ended up with now? Nothing could be worse then the madman Obama, nothing whatsoever. By the time we get a Third Party that has a chance this Nation will be finished. What we need is for The GOP to return to it's Conservative roots. We need better leaders. People who honor the Constitution like Ron Paul (though I don't agree with everything Paul says).That is a more realistic approach my friend. ~BH
> ...


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## HUGGY (Aug 11, 2009)

Gunny said:


> Liability said:
> 
> 
> > Gunny said:
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You hunt three year olds?


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## Liability (Aug 12, 2009)

HUGGY said:


> 9/11 inside job said:
> 
> 
> > HUGGY said:
> ...




It is interesting that simplistic tools like DRuggy attempt to put labels on everyone they cannot coherently debate.  

I am not a neo-con.  DRuggy knows not whereof he babbles.


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## HUGGY (Aug 12, 2009)

Liability said:


> HUGGY said:
> 
> 
> > 9/11 inside job said:
> ...



Sorry for you sparky.  You don't make the rules.  As far as I can tell you are a neo con fuck.  You know ..free speach and everything.  Keep posting your hate for america and I'll keep pointing it out.  Don't like it?  Don't post.


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## Liability (Aug 12, 2009)

HUGGY said:


> Liability said:
> 
> 
> > HUGGY said:
> ...



I never said I made any of the rules here, you idiot.  I didn't even imply any such thing, ya moron.



HUGGY said:


> As far as I can tell you are a neo con fuck.



As far as YOU can tell?  Bwahahaha!  You can't even tell time.  You are far too much of a morn.  



HUGGY said:


> You know ..free speach and everything.



You are SUCH a total jackass, it looks like you are not even responding to the post I made.  You are clearly addled.



HUGGY said:


> Keep posting your hate for america and I'll keep pointing it out.  Don't like it?  Don't post.



I haven't posted ANY hate for America (and the name is a proper noun which requires capitalization of the first letter, you imbecile).

You cannot "point out" any such thing out -- since there is no factual basis for your idiotic delusions.  I will happily continue to post to continually point out what a total cretin you are, Druggy.


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## editec (Aug 12, 2009)

Still another thread basically ruined by people incapable of having a discussion without trading epithets to people who disagee with their postings.This is happening in thread after thread, now.Anyone disagree with me when I say this childish crap  is getting worse?


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## HUGGY (Aug 12, 2009)

editec said:


> Still another thread basically ruined by people incapable of having a discussion without trading epithets to people who disagee with their postings.This is happening in thread after thread, now.Anyone disagree with me when I say this childish crap  is getting worse?



Remind you of what the neo cons are doing to the town hall meetings???????

What comes around goes around..or so says Terry(AKA SweetCheeks).

You asked for war.  How is it working for you?


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## Liability (Aug 12, 2009)

editec said:


> Still another thread basically ruined by people incapable of having a discussion without trading epithets to people who disagee with their postings.This is happening in thread after thread, now.Anyone disagree with me when I say this childish crap  is getting worse?



LOL!

It is not possible to "ruin" a carton of milk that has already gone bad.

This thread STARTED by bfgn commenced with a quoted piece by the bombastic puke Oliver Stone.

It was, by definition, already ruined -- from jump.


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## BolshevikHunter (Aug 12, 2009)

Liability said:


> HUGGY said:
> 
> 
> > Liability said:
> ...



I think Huggy has a crush on you bro. I would keep an eye out for fruits in pink panties peaking inside your bedroom window. ~BH


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## LA RAM FAN (Aug 12, 2009)

editec said:


> Still another thread basically ruined by people incapable of having a discussion without trading epithets to people who disagee with their postings.This is happening in thread after thread, now.Anyone disagree with me when I say this childish crap  is getting worse?



Nope dont disagree with you at all.Thats why I dont make more threads than i do seeing how people act so childish around here when they cant counter facts..thats also why I dont bother with people who throw childish insults here  like divecon,godboy and this Liability poster.If they haul off and hit me just for speaking my peace,then I will hit them back and leave and put them on my ignore list and not bother with them anymore.


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## Liability (Aug 12, 2009)

9/11 inside job said:


> editec said:
> 
> 
> > Still another thread basically ruined by people incapable of having a discussion without trading epithets to people who disagee with their postings.This is happening in thread after thread, now.Anyone disagree with me when I say this childish crap  is getting worse?
> ...





Nobody "hits" here you srtupid sissy.  It's a message board.  No need to wet your panties any further.

The simple fact is that you suffer from a very sad mental condition.  You are mentally ill.  

You say truly stupid stuff and think yourself clever.

You and your sickeningly stupid ilk are incapable of thinking-through ALL of the MANY things that WOULD BE required for any of your conspiracy-theory luncacy to have any relationship to the truth.

You have no facts.  You have lunatic theories.

You idiotic 9-11 "troofers" are all complete assholes.  Plain and simple.


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## Rational Man (Aug 14, 2009)

You know, there was a time that I actually believed in the JFK conspiracy nonsense...before I actually educated myself.  There is a book that came out back around 1993 called _Case Closed_ by Gerald Posner.  I would suggest that you read it.  Posner basically debunks every conspiracy theory that has ever come up and pretty much proves that Oswald actually did act alone.  The "magic bullet" stuff that gets the conspiracy buffs all bent out of shape is just absolute nonsense.  There was nothing "magic" at all about the bullet that hit Kennedy and Connelly -- it traveled in a perfectly straight path.

In addition, Posner was the first writer about the Kennedy assassination to ever interview Oswald's wife.  Oswald's wife said that her husband basically had no friends or associates of any sort and was pretty much a loner.


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## Bfgrn (Aug 14, 2009)

Rational Man said:


> You know, there was a time that I actually believed in the JFK conspiracy nonsense...before I actually educated myself.  There is a book that came out back around 1993 called _Case Closed_ by Gerald Posner.  I would suggest that you read it.  Posner basically debunks every conspiracy theory that has ever come up and pretty much proves that Oswald actually did act alone.  The "magic bullet" stuff that gets the conspiracy buffs all bent out of shape is just absolute nonsense.  There was nothing "magic" at all about the bullet that hit Kennedy and Connelly -- it traveled in a perfectly straight path.
> 
> In addition, Posner was the first writer about the Kennedy assassination to ever interview Oswald's wife.  Oswald's wife said that her husband basically had no friends or associates of any sort and was pretty much a loner.



Rational Man... there is nothing _rational_ about the single bullet theory...it defies all the laws of physics, so, your education is incomplete...

Please refer to my previous posts on the physical and medical evidence, and the Dallas doctors...

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sh0-2Sthn9A]YouTube - The Large Back of the Head Wound[/ame]


*HASTY JUDGMENT: A REPLY TO GERALD POSNER--WHY THE JFK CASE IS NOT CLOSED*

Michael T. Griffith
1996  
Second Edition
Revised and Expanded on 4/8/98

In a Special Report in its August 30-September 6, 1993 issue, U.S. NEWS & WORLD REPORT formally endorsed, and printed two extracts from, Gerald Posner's new book, CASE CLOSED: LEE HARVEY OSWALD AND THE ASSASSINATION OF JFK (New York: Random House, 1993). On the magazine's cover appeared the words "Case Closed" set against the background of a picture of the President and his wife, Jacqueline Kennedy. The cover described CASE CLOSED as "a brilliant new book" that "proves who killed Kennedy." Turning to the book itself, we find strong endorsements of it by William Styron, Stephen Ambrose, Tom Wicker, and David Wise. With all the hoopla, the reader might get the impression that Posner has not only achieved some major breakthroughs in the case, but that he's actually solved it. Unfortunately, nothing could be further from the truth.

The most that can be said in Posner's defense is that he seems to discredit some peripheral conspiracy arguments. But, when it comes to the central issues of the case--such as the direction and number of the shots, the magic bullet, the medical evidence, Oswald's role, etc.--Posner stumbles badly, at times offering theories and interpretations that are surprisingly strained. Also, Posner advances many claims that have already been refuted. CASE CLOSED is essentially another untenable defense of the Warren Commission's dubious single-assassin theory.

http://karws.gso.uri.edu/JFK/the_critics/griffith/Hasty_Judgment.html


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## LA RAM FAN (Aug 14, 2009)

Rational Man said:


> You know, there was a time that I actually believed in the JFK conspiracy nonsense...before I actually educated myself.  There is a book that came out back around 1993 called _Case Closed_ by Gerald Posner.  I would suggest that you read it.  Posner basically debunks every conspiracy theory that has ever come up and pretty much proves that Oswald actually did act alone.  The "magic bullet" stuff that gets the conspiracy buffs all bent out of shape is just absolute nonsense.  There was nothing "magic" at all about the bullet that hit Kennedy and Connelly -- it traveled in a perfectly straight path.
> 
> In addition, Posner was the first writer about the Kennedy assassination to ever interview Oswald's wife.  Oswald's wife said that her husband basically had no friends or associates of any sort and was pretty much a loner.



Rational man you really need to change your user name to IRRATIONAL MAN.I have read that propaganda of Posners and its filled with tons of lies.the only nonsense is the warren commission and Posners lone nut theory propagated by the government and corporate controlled media.Posner doesnt debunk shit in that book.

Just like the warren commission,he ignores key evidence and facts.He talks about Ed Hoffman the death mute who was there that day  in his book and makes up all kinds of lies about him.I know cause I have researched the kennedy assassination ever since 93 and have met witnesses that were there that day including Ed Hoffman.Hoffman told me he cried when he saw all the lies made up about him,words and actions of Hoffmans that Hoffman said he never said or did.He tells out right lies also that Ruby had no connections to the mob.Proven lie.Your ALSO not aware that Maria Oswald herself has called Posner out over the years,saying he is an outright liar and disinformation agent.

You need to read the posts of this thread starter and mine cause we proved you can ONLY have a magic bullet to accomplish the miracles of the fairy tale warren commission and Posners fairy tale.you only educated yourself to the lies and propaganda of the governments that  they WANT you to believe.Marina was also on NBC with Tom Brokaw back then in 93 and he was talking to her about Posners book talking about some of the things Marina said and she called Posner out on national tv.She said things like-I never said that.I never said ANY of those things Posner made up. Through my OWN research I discovered Posner was a liar as well. 

For instance,he goes and says in his book that the reason the guy who was having a seizure that day  was never taken into the hospital that day to account for the fact that there was no record of his admittance there,was he said that according to the ambulance driver,he was feeling much better and was able to get up and walk away.LIE,LIE AND LIE.I know that for a fact it was a lie cause I met that ambulance driver at a JFK conference in Dallas in 93 and he said Posner lied,what he REALLY said was when they got to the hospital,the guy just got up in left. The book is cleverly written,I'll say that much.The first 50 pages or so had me going.

That book actually had me going for a while into thinking that it was the truth,that oswald really WAS the lone assassin.But then after the first 50 pages,he exposed himself for the true liar and disinformation artist he REALLY is.Matter of fact,it was learned later on over the years,that his law firm is a lobbying firm for the CIA.After I got nauseated with all his provem lies he spilled later on in the book,it didnt surprise me at all to learn that about him in the coming years. You really need to be more careful about what you read.Posner has fooled lots of people out there such as yourself.Matter of fact you REALLY should read the rebuttal to that book.Cant remember the authors name who wrote it but he debunks everything Posner says in his book that he wrote appropriately called CASE OPEN.


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## Kerry Won Ohio (Aug 14, 2009)

> there is nothing rational about the single bullet theory...it defies all the laws of physics, so, your education is incomplete...



Rational Man is correct.  You NEED to read _Case Closed_.  There was nothing magical about the gunshot that hit both Kennedy and Connelly.


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## Bfgrn (Aug 14, 2009)

*The Context of the Warren Commissions Investigation of Kennedys Autopsy Evidence*

It is useful to put the Commissions handling of the Presidents medical and autopsy evidence into the context of its overall management of the murder investigation. Its work on the latter was far from exemplary. So unexemplary, in fact, that the Commissions shortcomings later gave rise to scathing criticism not only from the predictable, omnipresent malcontents, but also, extraordinarily, from two independent groups of experienced government investigators  those of the 1976 Senate Select Committee (eponymously named the Church Committee after its chairman, Senator Frank Church), and the House Select Committee on Assassinations (HSCA) in 1978.

Though the mainstream press has repeatedly lauded the Warren Commission, it has been oddly quiet about these remarkable, official rebukes. This, despite the fact they amounted to no less than the government twice, independently, impugning its own work. The HSCAs comment that, It is a reality to be regretted that the [Warren] Commission failed to live up to its promise,[118] pretty much sums up the conclusions of both the Church Committee and the HSCA. The reasons both groups found for the failure are as similar as they are straightforward. The Warren Commission never assembled an independent investigative staff of its own. Instead, it unwisely turned to the FBI, and to a lesser extent, to the Secret Service and the CIA. The interests of these agencies happened to lay with a no conspiracy finding, lest they be accused of failure to foil the worst-case scenario.

The Committee has developed evidence, the Church Committee concluded, which impeaches the process by which the intelligence agencies arrived at their own conclusions about the assassination, and by which they provided information to the Warren Commission. This evidence indicates that the investigation of the assassination was deficient and that facts which might have substantially affected the course of the investigation were not provided the Warren Commission or those individuals within the FBI and the CIA, as well as other agencies of Government, who were charged with investigating the assassination.[URL="http://www.history-matters.com/essays/jfkmed/How5Investigations/How5InvestigationsGotItWrong_1b.htm#_edn119"][119][/URL] Regarding the FBIs endeavors, the House Select Committee was blistering: It must be said that the FBI generally exhausted its resources in confirming its case against Oswald as the lone assassin, a case that Director J. Edgar Hoover, at least, seemed determined to make within 24 hours of the of the assassination.[120]

Hoover, it turns out, succeeded in swiftly disseminating his pre-investigative epiphany to a powerful lobby, one that closed ranks, minds evidently shut, even before the first Commission member had been appointed. Almost immediately after the assassination, the Church Committee said, Director Hoover, the Justice Department and the White House exerted pressure on senior Bureau officials to complete their investigation and issue a factual report supporting the conclusions that Oswald was the lone assassin  .[121] That conclusion has found abundant confirmation in a flurry of formerly suppressed documents, many of which were only unsealed finally in the 1990s.

For example, in an 11/24/63 memo to LBJ, Homer Thornberry, an associate of the acting Attorney General Katzenbach, reported that, I have talked with Nick Katzenbach and he is very concerned that everyone know that Oswald was guilty of the Presidents assassination.[122] The next day, in a memo to presidential assistant Bill Moyers, Katzenbach himself urged that, the public must be satisfied that Oswald was the assassin; that he did not have confederates who are still at large; and that the evidence was such that he would have been convicted at trial.[123] As historian Michael Kurtz has observed, the day before Katzenbach wrote this memo, on the same day Thornberry dispatched his communiqué, Hoover had called presidential adviser Walter Jenkins and had said, anticipating Katzenbach, The thing I am concerned about, and so is Mr. Katzenbach, is having something issued so we can convince the public that Oswald is the real assassin.[124][125] [Additional internal FBI memos, literally from the day of the murder, reflect the same monogamous passion for Oswald evident in Hoovers, Katzenbachs and Tornberrys memos. This is explored in detail in an essay by author Aguilar, Max Holland Rescues the Warren Commission and The Nation.[126])

Perhaps Katzenbach was guided by his belief that, as he explained it to the HSCA, [T]here is no investigative agency in the world that I believe compares with the FBI then [in 1963] and I suppose it is probably true today.[127] And so, very simply, if that [Oswalds guilt] was the conclusion that the FBI was going to come to, then the public had to be satisfied that was the correct conclusion.[128]

Such faith is difficult to fathom. As second-in-command to mob arch nemesis, Bobby Kennedy, one might have expected Katzenbach to have had a less exalted view of the Bureau chief. For by the time he took control of the Kennedy case, Hoover had already been exposed as a bit of a laughingstock for opining that organized crime didnt exist in America. And by the time Katzenbach testified to the HSCA, the Bureau had gone on record declaring that it had proved Nixon innocent of Watergate after what then-Attorney General Richard Kleindienst, with unintended irony, had described as the greatest FBI effort since the assassination of President Kennedy.[129]

Katzenbachs personal judgments aside, the Warren Commission apparently did not have the sort of cooperative relationship with the FBI one might have wished for in so important an investigation. The evidence, the HSCA discovered, indicates that Hoover viewed the Warren Commission more as an adversary than a partner in a search for the facts of the assassination. The HSCAs chief counsel, Robert Blakey, an experienced criminal investigator and prosecutor himself, was impressed with neither the Commissions vigor nor its independence from the FBI. What was significant, Blakey has written, was the ability of the FBI to intimidate the Commission, in light of the bureaus predisposition on the questions of Oswalds guilt and whether there had been a conspiracy. At a January 27 [1964] Commission meeting, there was another dialogue [among Warren Commissioners]:

*John McCloy:*  the time is almost overdue for us to have a better perspective of the FBI investigation than we now have  We are so dependent on them for our facts  .

*Commission counsel J. Lee Rankin:* Part of our difficulty in regard to it is that they have no problem. They have decided that no one else is involved  .

*Senator Richard Russell:* They have tried the case and reached a verdict on every aspect.

*Senator Hale Boggs:* You have put your finger on it. (Closed Warren Commission meeting.)[130]






Hoover may have succeeded in intimidating the Commission by employing one of his favorite dirty tricks. [D]erogatory information pertaining to both Commission members and staff was brought to Mr. Hoovers attention, the Church Committee discovered.[131] During an appearance before the HSCA in 1977, no less than Warren Commission chief counsel J. Lee Rankin sheepishly conceded, Who could protest against what Mr. Hoover did back in those days?[132] Apparently not even presidential appointees.

Thus, with the exposes of the Church and Select Committees, the government has itself granted one of the more potent criticisms of Warren Commission skeptics: that its final conclusions had been determined even before work had commenced. Looked at this way, the reasons for the Commissions inattention to clear conflicts in the medical and autopsy evidence can be seen as of a piece with the Commissions general disinterest in anyone other than Oswald, an orientation that is well explored in the works of skeptics such as Sylvia Meagher, Harold Weisberg, Josiah Thompson, Henry Hurt, Peter Dale Scott, Robert Blakey, etc.

How Five Investigations into JFK's Medical/Autopsy Evidence Got it Wrong - I-B. The Warren Commission Examines Kennedy's Medical Autopsy Evidence


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## Kerry Won Ohio (Aug 14, 2009)

But if you_ really_ have read Posner's book and you _still_ believe this nonsense, I'm afraid there is not much else I can do.  

So what do you _specifically_ disagree with in Posner's book?


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## Bfgrn (Aug 14, 2009)

Kerry Won Ohio said:


> But if you_ really_ have read Posner's book and you _still_ believe this nonsense, I'm afraid there is not much else I can do.
> 
> So what do you _specifically_ disagree with in Posner's book?



I know your question is directed at someone else, but...

Gerald Posner, the President or a King of the world cannot alter the LAW of physics...if you LOOK at the physical and medical evidence, the single bullet theory is the Emperor's New Clothes"...


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## Liability (Aug 14, 2009)

Bfgrn said:


> Kerry Won Ohio said:
> 
> 
> > But if you_ really_ have read Posner's book and you _still_ believe this nonsense, I'm afraid there is not much else I can do.
> ...



The "magic bullet" theory makes no sense.  It is one of Arlen Sphincter's lasting bits of shame.

That bullet barely got ANY deformation despite going through skin, muscle and bone.  Pardon my French, but BULL Shiite!

 Even if the problem of the apparent violation of the laws of physics could be overcome, the physical condition of that bullet makes it quite clear that it is not the sole bullet to do all that damage.


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## Kerry Won Ohio (Aug 15, 2009)

Liability said:


> Bfgrn said:
> 
> 
> > Kerry Won Ohio said:
> ...



The bullet did not hit any bone.  In fact, the bullet barely penetrated Connelly's leg and fell out when he was being moved off a gurney at the hospital.  

Just because a bullet isn't "deformed", doesn't mean there was no damage.  Most of the bullet's casing was missing.  Posner discussed all of this in his book and ballistics experts confirmed there was nothing out of the ordinary with the condition of the bullet.


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## DiveCon (Aug 15, 2009)

why am i not surprised at who the JFK conspiracy nutters are


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## elvis (Aug 15, 2009)

DiveCon said:


> why am i not surprised at who the JFK conspiracy nutters are



I think Jackie shot him in the face.


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## JW Frogen (Aug 15, 2009)

According to Mick Jagger the Devil killed the Kennedys.

Which would make him a LBJ all the way kinda arch angel.


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## DiveCon (Aug 15, 2009)

elvis3577 said:


> DiveCon said:
> 
> 
> > why am i not surprised at who the JFK conspiracy nutters are
> ...


if a bullet had come from the grassy knoll it would have gone through JFK's head and killed Jackie as well
it was proven by the discovery channels "inside the limo" show


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## Bfgrn (Aug 15, 2009)

Kerry Won Ohio said:


> Liability said:
> 
> 
> > Bfgrn said:
> ...


*
WRONG*

    * entered Connally's back just below and behind his right armpit creating an 8 millimeters by 15 millimeters elliptical wound, indicating that bullet was fired from an acute angle to the entrance wound point, or that the bullet was tumbling having hit something (presumably Kennedy), 

    * completely destroyed 127 millimeters (5 in) of Connally's fifth right rib bone as it smashed through his chest interior at a documented 10-degree anatomically downward angle, (post-operative x-rays document that some of the metal fragments are still buried with him) 

    * exited slightly below his right nipple, creating a 50 millimeter, sucking-air, blowout chest wound, 

    * passed through Connally's shirt and suit coat front, seen in commission photos five inches (127 mm) to the right of the suit coat right lapel, and even with the lowest point of the right lapel, 

    * now slowed to 900 feet per second (274 m/s)(subsonic), the bullet entered through Connally's right upper (outside) wrist, (but did not first pass through his suit coat nor shirt wrist area) (in 2003 Nellie Connally described in her book From Love Field that Connally's right hand, French cuff shirt cuff, solid-gold Mexican peso cufflink was struck with a bullet and the cufflink was completely shot off during the attack. Connallys cufflink is not found -nor was ever entered- into the assassination evidence) 

    * broke his right radius wrist bone at its widest point, depositing metal fragments, (post-operative x-rays document that some of the metal fragments are still buried with him) 

    * exited the palm (inner) side of Connally's wrist, 

    * now slowed to 400 feet per second (122 m/s), the bullet entered the front side of his left thigh creating a documented 10-millimeter nearly round wound, 

    * buried itself shallowly into Connally's left thigh muscles, 

http://www.theblackvault.com/wiki/index.php/Single_bullet_theory

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cnawDAp_zKM]YouTube - Connally doctor: CE 399 didn't create wounds[/ame]

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-QdsxbOoUqY]YouTube - John Connally - KRLD-TV - June22nd,1964[/ame]

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iM-q2YOsbrc&feature=PlayList&p=8AC3DA07B795CD42&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=37]YouTube - Gov. Connally's Press Conference[/ame]


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## Liability (Aug 15, 2009)

Kerry Won Ohio said:


> Liability said:
> 
> 
> > Bfgrn said:
> ...



*Of COURSE* it hit bone.  Man are you ignorant.  I'd respond more fully, but even though I am not convinced of some massive conspiracy, I will just defer the rebuttal of your stupid ignorant comment to bfgrn who nailed it (and you in the process):  http://www.usmessageboard.com/1425018-post100.html

The condition of the magic bullet was absolutely out of the normal for ANY bullet which caused that much damage to tissue and bone.

It should have been mushroomed and mangled.  It wasn't.  

The fact that one bullet in THAT condition could not POSSIBLY have caused all the aforementioned damage is pretty solid proof that there was at least one more shot fired.  And the only rational implication from that is that there was a second gun somewhere.


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## JenT (Aug 15, 2009)

Liability said:


> Kerry Won Ohio said:
> 
> 
> > Liability said:
> ...



Thanks for the reminder, I gotta buy more hollow tips


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## LA RAM FAN (Aug 15, 2009)

Kerry Won Ohio said:


> > there is nothing rational about the single bullet theory...it defies all the laws of physics, so, your education is incomplete...
> 
> 
> 
> Rational Man is correct.  You NEED to read _Case Closed_.  There was nothing magical about the gunshot that hit both Kennedy and Connelly.



as I just said,I HAVE read it and as I just proved in my last post,Posner is a freaking liar.You NEED to read Case Open.That book debunks everyone of Posners fairy tales.


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## LA RAM FAN (Aug 15, 2009)

Kerry Won Ohio said:


> But if you_ really_ have read Posner's book and you _still_ believe this nonsense, I'm afraid there is not much else I can do.
> 
> So what do you _specifically_ disagree with in Posner's book?



I just pointed out SOME of the lies that Posner says in that propaganda piece of his in my last post on page five..again you really need to read CASE OPEN.That book debunks everyone of Posners fantasys.


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## Dante (Aug 15, 2009)

xsited1 said:


> Oliver Stone directs some of the best comedies in hollywood.  One of my favorites was JFK.  It had me rolling in the aisles.



didn't see IT, but I love Oliver Stone comedies too. (_great mimes tinker alike)_


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## Dante (Aug 15, 2009)

Kerry Won Ohio said:


> But if you_ really_ have read Posner's book and you _still_ believe this nonsense, I'm afraid there is not much else I can do.
> 
> So what do you _specifically_ disagree with in Posner's book?


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## JakeStarkey (Aug 15, 2009)

Guys, how it happened is truly confusing to this day.  Most history professors probably require "Lee Harvey Oswald as the lone perp" as the answer on exams, even if said professors have real doubt.


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## LA RAM FAN (Aug 15, 2009)

DevNell said:


> Kerry Won Ohio said:
> 
> 
> > But if you_ really_ have read Posner's book and you _still_ believe this nonsense, I'm afraid there is not much else I can do.
> ...



oh god here I got to repeat it again for you brainwashed kennedy deniars.read my last post on page five where I listed the lies of Posners and read the freaking book CASE OPEN before you start posting this crap here about Posners fantasy that oswalkd killed kennedy and was the lone gunman.also you might actually want to read  the posts of mine and the thread starters.if you STILL think Oswald did it after all that,you guys are in serious denial.


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## LA RAM FAN (Aug 15, 2009)

JakeStarkey said:


> Guys, how it happened is truly confusing to this day.  Most history professors probably require "Lee Harvey Oswald as the lone perp" as the answer on exams, even if said professors have real doubt.



One thing we know is fact,Stones film may not be the ENTIRE truth,but its a 100 times more accurate to what really happened than the fairy tale the warren commission came up with and people still desperately want to believe in. You hit the nail right on the head there about most professors having to require to say that "Lee Harvey Oswald" is the answer on their exams.

I know that for a fact cause after I saw JFK that movie woke me up to the REAL country I live in and I have never looked at the united states of america the same way I used to when growing up.I stopped listening to the corporate controlled  news where they got CIA plants, and started reading ALTERNATIVE news sources that report REAL news the mainstream media wont ever touch such as American Free Press.

Thats REAL news the stuff THEY report. anyways back to your professor comment,I know your 100% right on that cause after JFK came out,a few years later after I got out of High School,I went back to my high school american history teacher and asked him why he lied to us telling us that Oswald was the lone gunman and not the truth that the CIA did it.He then went on and said-Oh I never did believe that.I then said-What that Oswald was the lone assassin or that the CIA killed him? he then said-That Oswald was the lone assassin.I then said to him-Well if you didnt believe it,then why did you tell us those lies back then that he killed Kennedy? He then went on to say-Well just between you and me,if I had said back then and now what I REALLY believed happened,I wouldnt be teaching here anymore.I would lose my job. true life story.I swear to it. Thats the way it is,they cant teach what they REALLY believe,or they would lose their jobs.Cant blame them. 

Think about it.The schools are funded by the city,and the city is funded by the state,and the state is funded by the federal government.so naturally your only going to hear what THEY want you to hear.They dont want you to hear our TRUE american history.The best way to learn the truth is go to the libray is what I always tell parents who have children so their children wont be brainwashed by the lies and propaganda of the government WE were forced to hear and grow up listening to.


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## Liability (Aug 15, 2009)

9/11 inside job said:


> JakeStarkey said:
> 
> 
> > Guys, how it happened is truly confusing to this day.  Most history professors probably require "Lee Harvey Oswald as the lone perp" as the answer on exams, even if said professors have real doubt.
> ...



  At least we now get a bit of insight into why you are such a loon.  



9/11 inside job said:


> Thats REAL news the stuff THEY report.



BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!  



9/11 inside job said:


> anyways * * * *



Just a little FYI, dipstick:  "anyways" is not a real word.



9/11 inside job said:


> Think about it.The schools are funded by the city,and the city is funded by the state,and the state is funded by the federal government



  Yes yes.  Of course.  States are "funded" by the Federal Gubmint.  COIT-ENLY!  Nyuk, nyuk, nyuk.  ANd you're not ignorant.  <<chortle>>



9/11 inside job said:


> .so naturally your only going to hear what THEY want you to hear.They dont want you to hear our TRUE american history.



BWAHAHAHAHA!  Well, sure.  You know how "THEY" are.



9/11 inside job said:


> The best way to learn the truth is go to the libray



Often found right next to a library.



9/11 inside job said:


> is what I always tell parents who have children so their children wont be brainwashed by the lies and propaganda of the government WE were forced to hear and grow up listening to.



It's much better to go to ALTERNATIVE NEWS to get the daily scoop on paranoid delusions and believe that imbecility!


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## elvis (Aug 15, 2009)

DiveCon said:


> elvis3577 said:
> 
> 
> > DiveCon said:
> ...



Nah.  Jackie shot him.  Ruby said he shot Oswald to keep Jackie from having to testify.  That's no coincidence.


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## Kerry Won Ohio (Aug 16, 2009)

Bfgrn said:


> Kerry Won Ohio said:
> 
> 
> > Liability said:
> ...



OK, I stand corrected about the bullet not hitting any bone.  Forgive me, it's been a long time since I read about this.

However, you're hurting your own theory that there was a conspiracy when you said this --



> entered Connally's back just below and behind his right armpit creating an 8 millimeters by 15 millimeters elliptical wound, indicating that bullet was fired from an acute angle to the entrance wound point, or that the bullet was tumbling having hit something (presumably Kennedy),



I definitely remember reading that the bullet was tumbling after it went through Kennedy, which is why Connally had a larger than normal entrance wound in his back.  And one reason the bullet wasn't "deformed" is because it lost a lot of velocity after going through Kennedy.   

Look, over 80% of the eyewitnesses who were interviewed the day of the assassination told investigators that they heard only 3 shots.  That is a pretty remarkable statistic, having that many eyewitnesses agree.  And NOBODY said any bullshit that day about a grassy knoll shooter.

And, as Posner recounts in his book, there was an eyewitness standing directly across the street from the book depository who watched Oswald fire the 3 shots.  And this eyewitness told the police immediately...not 20 years later, like the conspiracy wacko "eyewitnesses".  Of course, these are the types of facts that the conspiracy buffs never like to talk about.


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## Kerry Won Ohio (Aug 16, 2009)

> One thing we know is fact,Stones film may not be the ENTIRE truth,but its a 100 times more accurate to what really happened than the fairy tale the warren commission came up with and people still desperately want to believe in



Oh my God, now I KNOW you are truly delusional and you haven't read Posner's book.  Or is you have read it, you are in total denial.

Jim Garrison (Kevin Costner's character) was one of the most corrupt DAs in the history of this country.  Even people that worked with him have testified to this.  Plus, the guy was kicked out of the Army for mental problems ("paranoia" being one of his many mental problems -- that explains a lot!).  He fabricated the ENTIRE FUCKING CASE against Clay Shaw.  All Garrison did was completely ruin an innocent man's life.  Garrison didn't have a shred of evidence that Oswald knew Shaw or ANY of the people in that movie.  He literally pulled that entire case out of his ass because he was a shameless glory hound.


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## Kerry Won Ohio (Aug 16, 2009)

geauxtohell said:


> Bfgrn said:
> 
> 
> > My film JFK.......
> ...


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## Kerry Won Ohio (Aug 16, 2009)

9/11 inside job said:


> DevNell said:
> 
> 
> > Kerry Won Ohio said:
> ...



I don't see what you're talking about on page 5.  If you've read _Case Closed_ and still believe the conspiracy crap, then you are in denial.  Pure and simple.

This controversy is dead and has been since _Case Closed_ came out 15 years ago.  Nobody has refuted anything Posner wrote in the book.  Plus, the fact that you said the movie "JFK" is legit tells me that you are a total blowhard not worth listening to.


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## Bfgrn (Aug 16, 2009)

Kerry Won Ohio said:


> Bfgrn said:
> 
> 
> > Kerry Won Ohio said:
> ...



You said:_ "However, you're hurting your own theory that there was a conspiracy when you said this --"_

KWO...I only posted what was written in wikipedia's description of Connally's wounds..."(presumably Kennedy)" is not my comment...

I wish you would have watched the videos I posted...



BUT,let's try to make this simple and logical applying common sense. Pretend you know nothing about eye witness accounts or any books written years later...

HERE is the "evidence" you have to decipher... 

First: It has been determined* that in order for a lone gunman on the 6th floor of the Texas School Depository Building to have inflicted all the wounds to President Kennedy and Governor Connally one bullet HAD TO create the initial non fatal wounds to the President and all the wounds to Governor Connally.

* Based on the 6.5 x 52 mm Italian made Mannlicher Carcano M91/38 bolt-action rifle found on the TSDB's 6th floor

* The wounds inflicted to President Kennedy and Governor Connally

* That one bullet missed the limousine, struck a curb and caused superficial wounds to a bystander near the triple underpass

* The reactions of those two men as seen on a home movie taken by Abraham Zapruder on a Bell & Howell 414PD

* The time frame all those pieces of hard evidence

The Warren Commission faced an analytic problem:
The 486 frames of the 26.6-second Zapruder film established that a less-than-six-second period of time passed during the shooting. The time required to operate the bolt-action 6.5 x 52 mm Mannlicher Carcano rifle would have permitted a shooter, at most, to get off only three shots.

SO... EITHER a lone sniper in a 6th floor window of the TSDB (Oswald) created all the wounds OR there was more than one gunman...

Let's start at the beginning and concentrate just on the initial non fatal wounds to the President. We HAVE TO get past those wounds to proceed to Connally's wounds if the single bullet theory is valid...

HERE is the Warren Commission's depiction of the initial wounds to the President:

CE 385





CE 386







And HERE is the ACTUAL physical and medical evidence of those wounds...

Here is page 2 of the Official Death Certificate authored and signed by President Kennedy's personal physician, Dr. George Burkley who was never called to testify before the Warren Commission...

"a second wound occurred in the posterior back at about the level of the third thoracic vertebra"







AND...Dr. Burkley's location of the back wound matches the autopsy face sheet that he also signed...







AND...Dr. Burkley's location of the back wound matches the President's shirt and jacket...







AND...

The initial draft of the Warren Report stated:
"A bullet had entered his back at a point slightly above the shoulder to the right of the spine."

It was CHANGED at the urging of Commission member Gerald R. Ford...

Ford suggested changing that to read: ''A bullet had entered the back of
his neck at a point slightly to the right of the spine.''

The final report said: ''A bullet had entered the base of the back of his
neck slightly to the right of the spine.''

"A bullet had entered the back of his neck slightly to the right of the spine."

YOUR turn...


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## Ryan (Aug 16, 2009)

Without getting into the terminal ballistics, judging only from the shooting requirements that where required of Oswald, I find the lone gunman theory near impossible to believe.  Fact one, Oswald was a below average shot as a Marine qualifying as a Sharpshooter and Marksman.  The first shot missed Kennedy completely but yet Oswald was supposedly able to make the next 2 more difficult follow up shots, amazing.

Many people cite the Peter Jennings program with a computer image recreation as compelling evidence that not only were the shots originating from the 6th floor of the school book depository and prove the charges against Oswald.  The burden of proof should be with the "lone gunman" theorists especially since the case never went to trial.  I had many misgivings with the Jennings program especially the portion where Dr. John Lattimer clumsily racks the bolt of a Mannlicher Carcano in a little less then 8.3 seconds "dry firing" the firearm.  Either Lattimer, who served in WWII in the medical field, has no experience with shooting or he counts on the viewer as being ignorant.  The Warren Commission time frame was established at between 4.6 and 5.15 seconds based on film analysis.  This is a key element of the "lone gunman" theory where no more then three shot were fired in that time frame or the theory falls apart.  Can this time frame be proven possible?

Shooting a bolt action rifle with live ammunition would result in a recoil and greatly increase the time required to regain the target in the scope, lead the target and get off a well aimed shot and repeat the process.  Very strange for a first miss then a tremendous recovery tracking a target that was not in full view through an Oak tree but this what the "lone gunman" theorists believe.      

The Warren commission tested with three marksmen that were as Master shots by NRA standards and none were able to reproduce anything close to the shooting that has been attributed to Oswald.  Lattimer also presented a couple strings of fire that was recorded in Marine rifle range book as proof that Oswald was an excellent shot.  The proof in in the qualification and Oswald as pointed out earlier was a below average shot.  The 6th story window was apx. 60 feet above ground the distances were 175, 240 and 265 ft which is a short range but yet a difficult shot that has yet to be reproduced.  

The best  opportunity to shoot from the 6th story window would have been when the limo was making the slow turn from Houston onto Elm but yet the shots were taken as the target was further along and with heavy pipes in the window frame would have complicate a very difficult shot for a right handed shooter. 

Often "lone gunman" theorists claim that the marksmanship requirements have been reproduced from that same height at a moving target at the speed of the limo and with a similar rifle and scope set up but they can never specify the trails.  I welcome anyone to clarify any worthy recreations or point out  what marksmanship evidence convinces them of Oswald guilt.  Bear in mind that shots taken from the Dal Tex building, the Dallas County Records building, the County Criminal Courts building were possibilities that were never disproved by Jennings film.

Just wondering how many remember what big new story launched Jennings career into national prominence in America?  Would Jennings have a conflict of interest in the assassination theories?     

Also, I want to point out, since Jim Garrison's character was called into question, that Dallas DA Henry Wade's office is known for extreme corruption with numerous convictions overturned.


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## rightwinger (Aug 16, 2009)

Fact one, Oswald was a below average shot as a Marine qualifying as a Sharpshooter and Marksman. The first shot missed Kennedy completely but yet Oswald was supposedly able to make the next 2 more difficult follow up shots, amazing.
_I have never met a Marine who doesn't think he could make that shot[/I

The Warren Commission time frame was established at between 4.6 and 5.15 seconds based on film analysis. This is a key element of the "lone gunman" theory where no more then three shot were fired in that time frame or the theory falls apart. Can this time frame be proven possible?

 The ability to fire three shots has been repeatedly demonstrated. Keep in mind the first shot is already in the chamber, the clock starts once the first shot is fired. Six seconds to rire the remaining two shots is not difficult and has been proven
The 6th story window was apx. 60 feet above ground the distances were 175, 240 and 265 ft which is a short range but yet a difficult shot that has yet to be reproduced. 
It has been reproduced many times, find me a single Marine who doesn't think he could make that shot. 

Question for those who don't buy a lone gunman.  If there were multiple gunmen, why would they only get off three shots?  Wouldn't you set up a kill zone and spray the limo with gunfire?

Why would Oswald have a gun that he paid $19 for?  Wouldn't the CIA provide him a $500 sniper rifle to be sure?_


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## Old Rocks (Aug 16, 2009)

All of which still begs the question, how in the hell did a round like Oswald was firing create the head wound Kennedy suffered? I have no theories as to why or who. But that wound was not the kind that a rifle shooting full metal jacketed at 2300 ft/sec would make.


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## Kerry Won Ohio (Aug 17, 2009)

> AND...
> 
> The initial draft of the Warren Report stated:
> "A bullet had entered his back at a point slightly above the shoulder to the right of the spine."
> ...



I really don't understand what your point is here -- a few minor word changes to the autopsy report indicates a conspiracy???

Posner addressed all of the supposed "inconsistencies" in the autopsy report in his book.  The conspiracy theorists love to jump all over the autopsy, but there is just nothing here.  

And you are wrong about another important point (which the Warren Commission also got wrong) --
The shooting lasted OVER 8 SECONDS, not the 6 seconds that the Warren Commission concluded.  Posner proves this in his book in several ways by analyzing the Zapruder film.  8 seconds was plenty of time to fire all 3 shots.

Did you know that there were 3 men standing directly below Oswald on the 5th floor when the 3 shots were fired?  There is even a photo of these men trying to look up at the 6th floor through their window shortly after the shooting.  These men heard 3 shots and they even heard the shells hitting the floor.  

This is exactly what I mean -- you conspiracy buffs completely IGNORE any inconvenient facts like this that don't fit your version of events.


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## Kerry Won Ohio (Aug 17, 2009)

> Without getting into the terminal ballistics, judging only from the shooting requirements that where required of Oswald, I find the lone gunman theory near impossible to believe. Fact one, Oswald was a below average shot as a Marine qualifying as a Sharpshooter and Marksman. The first shot missed Kennedy completely but yet Oswald was supposedly able to make the next 2 more difficult follow up shots, amazing.



The first shot hit a tree branch and got deflected.  That is why he missed Kennedy on the first shot.

It doesn't matter if Oswald was a below average shot in the Marines.  He was using a rifle with a scope from a very short distance.  A novice could have hit Kennedy.


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## Bfgrn (Aug 17, 2009)

Kerry Won Ohio said:


> > AND...
> >
> > The initial draft of the Warren Report stated:
> > "A bullet had entered his back at a point slightly above the shoulder to the right of the spine."
> ...



MINOR points??? CHANGING the location of the first wound in the President by the Warren Commission (NOT the autopsy) is MINOR? REALLY???????????

I guess I didn't make it SIMPLE enough for you...

YOU need to get me past the first two wounds in the President, otherwise, the single bullet theory FALLS APART...

HERE is where the Warren Commission said the first wound (initial entrance wound of the single bullet) was located...

Warren Commission Exhibit CE 386






HERE is trajectory according to the Warren Commission based on their FALSE first wound location (CHANGED from back to back of neck in the Report)...

Warren Commission Exhibit CE 385





AND...

HERE is the ACTUAL location of the first wound (initial entrance wound of the single bullet)











KWO... you are really starting to piss me off...YOU are the one ignoring everything I posted and asked of you...then you have the nerve to call me a conspiracy buff? ALL I have talked about is physical and medical evidence...I have NOT forwarded ANY conspiracies theories...

NOW, either address the first wounds, or just admit you are not prepared to discuss the JFK assassination intelligently...


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## Ryan (Aug 17, 2009)

Fact one, Oswald was a below average shot as a Marine qualifying as a Sharpshooter and Marksman. The first shot missed Kennedy completely but yet Oswald was supposedly able to make the next 2 more difficult follow up shots, amazing.
_I have never met a Marine who doesn't think he could make that shot[/I

The Warren Commission time frame was established at between 4.6 and 5.15 seconds based on film analysis. This is a key element of the "lone gunman" theory where no more then three shot were fired in that time frame or the theory falls apart. Can this time frame be proven possible?

The ability to fire three shots has been repeatedly demonstrated. Keep in mind the first shot is already in the chamber, the clock starts once the first shot is fired. Six seconds to rire the remaining two shots is not difficult and has been proven
The 6th story window was apx. 60 feet above ground the distances were 175, 240 and 265 ft which is a short range but yet a difficult shot that has yet to be reproduced. 
It has been reproduced many times, find me a single Marine who doesn't think he could make that shot. 

Question for those who don't buy a lone gunman. If there were multiple gunmen, why would they only get off three shots? Wouldn't you set up a kill zone and spray the limo with gunfire?

Why would Oswald have a gun that he paid $19 for? Wouldn't the CIA provide him a $500 sniper rifle to be sure? 

**********
I am a former Marine that has several rifle expert awards and while in a STA platoon was trained at the 1st Marine Division sniper school and believe I could not have made that string of shots.  More importantly a former Marine, police officer and well accomplished authority on snipers Craig Roberts in his book "Kill Zone"  states without hesitation that he could not have duplicated Oswald's supposed feat.  The distance is not the issue and those familiar with shooting and the Dealey Plaza requirements appreciate these questions.  You now have the name of a combat experienced Marine, Craig Roberts, who studied the facts, wrote a book on the issue and put his reputation on the line.  Now that I have provided you with the name of an authority I would appreciate you specify what demonstration "reproduced" the theoretical lone gunman shooting results.   

Your final two questions maybe legitimate by themselves but do not change the basic questions concerning a  rifle and scope that could not be zeroed until Warren Commission had engineers work on the rifle using shims et cetera.  Oswald was not a skilled shooter despite great efforts to portray him as such and this portrayal is key to the "lone gunman" theory.  A connection between Oswald to a more expensive rifle is more complicated and apparently a faulty rifle has somehow been convincing enough evidence for the many "lone gunman" theorists.  The issue of shots fired has also been controversial, but these operational issues do not zero the scope on the Mannlicher Carcano or reproduce that string of fire.  What I am asking for is the best evidence that Oswald made those shots._


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## Ryan (Aug 17, 2009)

The first shot hit a tree branch and got deflected. That is why he missed Kennedy on the first shot.

It doesn't matter if Oswald was a below average shot in the Marines. He was using a rifle with a scope from a very short distance. A novice could have hit Kennedy. 

**********
I have never read that the first shot was deflected by a tree branch but would appreciate you listing your source.  I know that a curb was hit by a projectile during the assassination and a piect of concrete hit a by stander.  I have never been to Dealey Plaza and cannot say for certain where the tree branches came into play in relation to the limo on Elm Street and the first shot.  Based on your post the bullet would been directed by a tree branch to such a great degree that the huge limo would be missed completely.  Is that what you are saying?

It's worth noting that Military Snipers are trained to shoot from behind bushes as a form of cover and concealment.  Perhaps the projectile is deflected a bit but the benefits out weigh costs and this is differant then Police Sniping.  Still though the Oswald shots were supposedly made at a moving target and certainly the tree would have made tracking very difficult for that second follow up shot that hit the upper torso.  I am using the Warren Commision tests which employed three Master riflemen, not novices, and the "lone gunman" theory could not be sustained.


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## rightwinger (Aug 17, 2009)

While in the Marines, Oswald was trained in the use of the M1 Garand rifle. Following that training, he was tested in December 1956, and obtained a score of 212, which was 2 points above the minimum for qualifications as a sharpshooter. In May 1959, on another range, Oswald scored 191, which was 1 point over the minimum for ranking as a marksman.


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## LA RAM FAN (Aug 18, 2009)

Kerry Won Ohio said:


> > One thing we know is fact,Stones film may not be the ENTIRE truth,but its a 100 times more accurate to what really happened than the fairy tale the warren commission came up with and people still desperately want to believe in
> 
> 
> 
> ...




your in serious denial as usual. AGAIN for the 100th freaking time,stop seeing only what you WANT to see and read the freaking book CASE OPEN, it debunks everyone of Posners fantasys .Funny how your afraid to read that book and my last post on page 5 I have to keep repeating to you. Ruined an innocent mans life? your hysterical.It was later learned through the freedom of information act years later that  Clay Shaw DID work for the CIA.you crack me up.The reason Garrison couldnt prove it was cause plants of the CIA penetrated his office and knew what he was up to.Also the jury back then, even though they were not convinced that Shaw was guilty since Garrison could not prove it,they WERE convinced it was a conspiracy after looking at the zapruder film.


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## Ryan (Aug 18, 2009)

Just to follow up on the issue of the shots attributed to Oswald, the rifle scope was not sighted in placing the cross hairs on the point of impact with the projectile.  In other words, if a shooter placed those cross hairs on a target at any range and squeezed the trigger the result would be a miss.  This circumstance was not a result of a jarred rifle that may have occurred after the assassination but was inherent to the rifle scope/mount itself and required great effort by the Warren Commission to address.

Lone gunman theorists such as Bugliosi (sp?) explain this massive problem away by suggesting that Oswald did not use the scope but instead used the iron sights.  This is possible on some rifle set ups to see the iron sights below a scope to some degree.  This type of scope mount serves where a hunter may have a damaged scope that occurs during a hunt or perhaps low light conditions or even scope sighted in a different distance then the distance a target appears.  It does seem to me that shooting attributed to Oswald would be easier with iron sights since the objective lense of the defective scope looks to be the dimensions of a dime an reacquiring a target for a follow up shot would be very difficult.  Oswald would have to had totally miss on the cold barrell shot, which should be the best, but shot 2 would be better and shot 3 the best as the target moved away from him through tree branches.   

This iron sight theory has not been tested to prove that this method would be able to reproduce the same results attributed to Oswald.  Surely using the iron sights would be more likely to result in a hit but the time frame of the maximum (HSCA) of 8.1 seconds firing three shots with the MC bolt action at a moving target is still tight.  Then the question arises as to why Oswald would not use the scope?  Did Oswald realize that the scope was defective?  If so, then why did he leave that the scope and mounting system on the rifle especially since the useless bulk would obstruct the view of the iron sights and make tracking a target more difficult?  It really does not add up and even Bugliosi must have held his nose when he offered up that one.  

Another major problem with the lone gunman theory is that Oswald was a below average shot for a Marine.  When Oswald qualified a on stationary targets he was using the M-1 Garand which was the best battle rifle that existed at that time.  The Warren Commission and the CBS tests could not produce the shots attributed to Oswald under controlled conditions and so how anyone believes that Oswald could make those shots under the intense stress that would naturally occur when shooting a US President is hard for me to understand.  Even using the time frame of the HSCA is beyond the skill of Oswald.  Two very big problems for the lone gunman theorists.


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## LA RAM FAN (Aug 18, 2009)

Kerry Won Ohio said:


> > AND...
> >
> > The initial draft of the Warren Report stated:
> > "A bullet had entered his back at a point slightly above the shoulder to the right of the spine."
> ...



and AGAIN ,the book CASE OPEN addressed all of Posners lies and proved they were.the only ones that ignore facts because it doesnt go along with their version of events,are you lone nut theorists who only see what you WANT to see since your in so much serious denial.


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## LA RAM FAN (Aug 18, 2009)

Kerry Won Ohio said:


> 9/11 inside job said:
> 
> 
> > DevNell said:
> ...



No its just unlike you,I do research and dont ignore facts.Also unlike you,I dont go into it seeing only what I want to see.thanks for proving your afraid to read that last post of mine on page 5 since you know it proves what a liar he is.if you STILL believe in that lone nut crap after all these years,then you are in serious denial.plain and simple.you know it,I know it.


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## Ryan (Aug 18, 2009)

9/11

I do not have "Case Open" and hope to get it at some time.  As I recall reading sometime ago, Clay Shaw was an OSS man during WWII and the transition to CIA operative is not a big leap.  Also, Shaw was linked to a shadowy organization PERMINDEX.


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## LA RAM FAN (Aug 18, 2009)

Yeah your right on everything you said about Shaw.Those facts were learned through the ARRB-assassinations records review boards in the 90's.I cannot remember the authors name who wrote it, but Im sure you can find that out in a google search but the book Case Open blows away all of Posners fantasys that this lone nut theorist here wants so desperatly to believe in.I suggest everybody here ignore this nutcase.He only see's what he WANTS to see and he didnt even bother reading that post of mine I kept referring him to since he knows it proves all the lies of Posners were just that.

I have read over a 100 books on the assassination over the years and have been fortunate enough to meet some of the witnesses that were there that day as well to know enough that it was a home grown plot by our government.Whats funny about these lone not theorists who refer to Posners book as the ultimate truth is he was invited to come down to a november in dallas convention one time to debate it and he didnt take them up on their challenge to do so cause he knew they would shread to pieces his book and make him look like a fool.LOL.


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## Ryan (Aug 18, 2009)

I have Posners book from the secondary market, see for sale for $1 at book sales.  Have not read it yet but will someday just to see what got so many fish in the bucket.


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## LA RAM FAN (Aug 18, 2009)

Ryan said:


> Just to follow up on the issue of the shots attributed to Oswald, the rifle scope was not sighted in placing the cross hairs on the point of impact with the projectile.  In other words, if a shooter placed those cross hairs on a target at any range and squeezed the trigger the result would be a miss.  This circumstance was not a result of a jarred rifle that may have occurred after the assassination but was inherent to the rifle scope/mount itself and required great effort by the Warren Commission to address.
> 
> Lone gunman theorists such as Bugliosi (sp?) explain this massive problem away by suggesting that Oswald did not use the scope but instead used the iron sights.  This is possible on some rifle set ups to see the iron sights below a scope to some degree.  This type of scope mount serves where a hunter may have a damaged scope that occurs during a hunt or perhaps low light conditions or even scope sighted in a different distance then the distance a target appears.  It does seem to me that shooting attributed to Oswald would be easier with iron sights since the objective lense of the defective scope looks to be the dimensions of a dime an reacquiring a target for a follow up shot would be very difficult.  Oswald would have to had totally miss on the cold barrell shot, which should be the best, but shot 2 would be better and shot 3 the best as the target moved away from him through tree branches.
> 
> ...



very well said.yeah that was what I mentioned earlier is that there was no way Oswald could have fired the shots cause when the police found the rifle,it was a piece of crap.Great to hear someone who knows something about rifles such as yourself to be talking about this.The scope was badly misaligned with the crosshairs, and oswald sure as hell wouldnt wait till he got down on Elm where it was a much more difficult shot,he would take the shot on Main where he is out in the open for a wide open shot.

The other thing that blows away the lone nut theory is Posner says the same shot that hit Kennedy,hit Connely as well.we know thats impossible cause frame 313 I think is the frame,shows Kennedy being hit in the throat and Connely visibly holding his hat which is impossible to do if his wrist has been shattered by the bullet.

You also got to ignore the laws of physics to accept the warren commissions report.Anybody with logic and common sense,knows that the  laws of physics prove that your head goes forward when you get hit in the head from behind.Not backward.Matter of fact,this one author who wrote a book about it,knew immediately the warren commission was a lie when he went up to the Museam years later, cause he served in vietnam and had dozens of kills and he said not one time did he ever remember seeing someones head go backwards after shooting them in the head from behind.Also anybody who knows anything about forensics,knows that the blood that gushs from the head after being shot from behind,knows it would have gone forward and hit the secret service men in front.The patrolman on the motorcycle on Jackies side who was riding behind the wheels of the Limo,was splattered with blood on him which is impossible if a has been fired  from behind, as anybody who knows anything about forensics plainly knows.


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## LA RAM FAN (Aug 18, 2009)

Ryan said:


> I have Posners book from the secondary market, see for sale for $1 at book sales.  Have not read it yet but will someday just to see what got so many fish in the bucket.



Whats really funny is when I got the book,it was marked down at a dollar as well.Shows you how much people "at least in my area at that time" believed in that propaganda of Posners.They could not sell hardly any copies of it  so it got marked down drastically. as i said previously before,the first 50 pages or so had me going.I really wanted to believe that it was the truth.and it had me believing that the first 50 pages or so.Its very cleverly written.so I can see who so many people could have allowed themselves to get brainwashed by Posners lies and propaganda.If your not careful,it can fool you.But like I said on my last post on page 5,after reading through it and knowing so much of what he said was outright lies as I proved in that post of mine-last one on page five,I got nausiated with it just like you will when you read it.


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## Bfgrn (Aug 18, 2009)

DevNell said:


> Kerry Won Ohio said:
> 
> 
> > But if you_ really_ have read Posner's book and you _still_ believe this nonsense, I'm afraid there is not much else I can do.
> ...



Case Closed: Lee Harvey Oswald and the Assassination of JFK. By Gerald Posner. (New York: Random House, 1993. Pp. xvi, 607. $25.00, ISBN 0-679-41825-3.)

    Gerald Posner argues that the Warren Commission properly investigated the assassination of JFK. He claims to have refuted the critics, purports to show what actually occurred, and asserts simple factual answers to explain complex problems that have plagued the subject for years. In the process he condemns all who do not agree with the official conclusions as theories driven by conjectures. At the same time his book is so theory driven, so rife with speculation, and so frequently unable to conform his text with the factual content in his sources that it stands as one of the stellar instances of irresponsible publishing on the subject.

Massive numbers of factual errors suffuse the book, which make it a veritable minefield. Random samples are the following: Pontchartrain is a lake not a river. The wounded James Tague stood twenty feet east, not under the triple underpass. There were three Philip Geracis, not one; he confuses the second and the third. A tiny fragment, not a bullet, entered Connally's thigh. The Army did the testing that he refers to the FBI. None, not three, commissioners heard at least half the hearings. The Warren Commission did not have any investigators. Captain Donovan is John, not Charles, and a lieutenant. The critics of the official findings are not leftists but include conservatives such as Cardinal Cushing, William Loeb, and former commissioner, Richard Russell.

Posner often presents the opposite of what the evidence says. In the presentation of a corrupt picture of Oswald's background, for example, he states that, under the name of Osborne, Oswald picked up leaflets he distributed from the Jones Printing Company and that the "receptionist" identified him. She in fact said that Oswald did not pick up the leaflets as the source that Posner cites indicates.

No credible evidence connects Oswald to the murder. All the data that Posner presents to do so is either shorn of context, corrupted, the opposite of what the sources actually say, or nonsourced. For example, 100 percent of the witness testimony and physical evidence exclude Oswald from carrying the rifle to work that day disguised as curtain rods. Posner manipulates with words to concoct a case against Oswald as with Linnie Mae Randle, who swore the package, as Oswald allegedly carried it, was twenty-eight inches long, far too short to have carried a rifle. He grasped its end, and it hung from his swinging arm to almost touch the ground. Posner converts this to "tucked under his armpit, and the other end did not quite touch the ground"(p. 225). The rifle was heavily oiled, but the paper sack discovered on the sixth floor had not a trace of oil. Posner excludes this vital fact.

To refute criticism that the first of three shots (the magic bullet) inflicted seven nonfatal wounds on two bodies in impossible physical and time constraints, he invents a second magic bullet. He asserts that Oswald fired the first bullet near frame 160 of the Zapruder film, fifty frames earlier than officially held, and missed. The bullet hit a twig or a branch or a tree, as he varies it, then separated into its copper sheath and lead composite core. The core did a right angle to fly west more than 200 feet to hit a curbstone and wound Tague while the sheath decided to disappear. The curb in fact had been damaged. He omits that analysis of the curb showed the bullet came from the west, which means the bullet would have had to have taken another sui generis turn of 135 degrees to get back west with sufficient force to smash concrete, which he pretends was not marred.

He asserts proof of a core hit because FBI analysis revealed "traces of [sic per reviewer] lead with a trace of antimony" (p. 325) in the damage. What he omits destroys his theory. He does not explain that a bullet core has several other metallic elements in its composition, not two, rendering his conclusion false. He further neglects to inform the reader that by May 1964 the damage had been covertly patched with a concrete paste and that in August, not July, 1964, the FBI tested the scrapings of the paste, not the damage, which gave the two metal results.

He says the second shot transited JFK's neck and caused the nonfatal wounds striking Connally at Zapruder film frame 224 where Connally is seen turned to his right, allegedly lining his body up with JFK's neck, thus sustaining the single bullet explanation. He finds proof that a bullet hit then in Connally's lapel that was flapping in that one frame as it passed through. But he does not conform to fact. Wind gusting to twenty miles per hour that day ruffled clothing. And, there is no bullet hole in the lapel but in the jacket body beneath the right nipple area.

Posner crowns his theory with the certainty of science by using one side of the computer-enhanced studies by Failure Analysis Associates of Menlo Park that his text implies he commissioned. The firm, however, lambastes his use as a distortion of the technology that it had developed for the American Bar Association's mock trial of Oswald where both sides used it.

Posner fails. I believe that irrefutable evidence shows conspirators, none of them Oswald, killed JFK. A mentally ill Jack Ruby, alone and unaided, shot Oswald. The federal inquiry knowingly collapsed and theorized a political solution. Its corruption spawned theorists who tout solutions rather than define the facts that are locked in the massively muddied evidentiary base and released only by hard work.

David R. Wrone
University of Wisconsin, Stevens Point


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## Kerry Won Ohio (Aug 19, 2009)

My God, that Wisconsin professor David Wrone is a total fucking idiot --



> Massive numbers of factual errors suffuse the book, which make it a veritable minefield. Random samples are the following: Pontchartrain is a lake not a river. The wounded James Tague stood twenty feet east, not under the triple underpass. There were three Philip Geracis, not one; he confuses the second and the third. A tiny fragment, not a bullet, entered Connally's thigh. The Army did the testing that he refers to the FBI. None, not three, commissioners heard at least half the hearings. The Warren Commission did not have any investigators. Captain Donovan is John, not Charles, and a lieutenant. The critics of the official findings are not leftists but include conservatives such as Cardinal Cushing, William Loeb, and former commissioner, Richard Russell.



Unfortunately for Wrone, NONE of this hot air refutes Posner's strong case that Oswald alone killed Kennedy.  This guy is obviously desperate -- he is looking for any minor factual error because he can't do ANYTHING to refute Posner's case.



> No credible evidence connects Oswald to the murder



Jesus Christ, this guy gets stupider with each paragraph.  Here is just some of the evidence from Posner's book that shows that Oswald killed Kennedy --

1)  An eyewitness standing directly across the street from the book depository watched Oswald fire all 3 shots.  He told the police about it immediately after the assassination.  He didn't wait 20 years like the grassy knoll "witnesses"

2)  The same rifle that Oswald used to killed Kennedy was also used in an attempt to kill a right-wing politician (General Edmin Walker) at his Dallas home in March 1963.  Oswald fired a round through Walker's kitchen window and it was just a fluke of luck that prevented Walker from getting killed.  Tests on the bullet for this failed attempt later matched Oswald's rifle.  Oswald TOLD his wife that he tried to kill Walker and even took pictures of Walker's house that were later found by the police. 

Until you conspiracy loons actually read Posner's book, you should just give this nonsense a rest.


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## Kerry Won Ohio (Aug 19, 2009)

Ryan said:


> The first shot hit a tree branch and got deflected. That is why he missed Kennedy on the first shot.
> 
> It doesn't matter if Oswald was a below average shot in the Marines. He was using a rifle with a scope from a very short distance. A novice could have hit Kennedy.
> 
> ...



Regarding the deflected first shot, it comes from Posner's book, _Case Closed_.

The Warren Commission did determine that one man could fire all 3 shots, so I don't understand your last sentence.


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## Kerry Won Ohio (Aug 19, 2009)

9/11 inside job said:


> Kerry Won Ohio said:
> 
> 
> > > One thing we know is fact,Stones film may not be the ENTIRE truth,but its a 100 times more accurate to what really happened than the fairy tale the warren commission came up with and people still desperately want to believe in
> ...



Dude, Garrison was a total crackpot, just like you.  Not even the conspiracy buffs still believe Garrison's bullshit!!  (well, except for you).  This is a major reason why Oliver Stone was so heavily criticized for making a movie based on Garrison's bullshit book.


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## Bfgrn (Aug 19, 2009)

Kerry Won Ohio said:


> My God, that Wisconsin professor David Wrone is a total fucking idiot --
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Interesting...you continue to rant and rave and call people conspiracy "loons"...but you refuse to address the first wound of the "supposed" single bullet in the President's back, not in his neck as the Warren Commission FALSELY claimed in their report and in their illustrations entered as evidence. You refuse to answer WHY the Warren Report CHANGED the location of the wound and even CHANGED the description on that wound from "back" to "back of neck"...

HERE is documented proof that officials in the HIGHEST levels of our government wanted to "cut off" all speculation of a second gunman and wanted nothing BUT an outcome from the Warren Commission that Oswald acted alone...

This memo was sent from the Justice Department to the White House on November 25, 1963...3 days after the President was assassinated and one day after Oswald was killed and no longer able to stand trial.

The "intent" of our government in regards to any investigation is CLEAR in this memo and they are mirrored in phone conversations between LBJ and J Edgar Hoover in the same time frame...


Memo from Nicholas deB. Katzenbach, Deputy Attorney General

November 25, 1963

MEMORANDUM FOR MR. MOYERS

It is important that all of the facts surrounding President Kennedy's Assassination be made public in a way which will satisfy people in the United States and abroad that all the facts have been told and that a statement to this effect be made now.

1. The public must be satisfied that Oswald was the assassin; that he did not have confederates who are still at large; and that the evidence was such that he would have been convicted at trial.

2. Speculation about Oswald's motivation ought to be cut off, and we should have some basis for rebutting thought that this was a Communist conspiracy or (as the Iron Curtain press is saying) a right-wing conspiracy to blame it on the Communists. Unfortunately the facts on Oswald seem about too pat-- too obvious (Marxist, Cuba, Russian wife, etc.). The Dallas police have put out statements on the Communist conspiracy theory, and it was they who were in charge when he was shot and thus silenced.

3. The matter has been handled thus far with neither dignity nor conviction. Facts have been mixed with rumor and speculation. We can scarcely let the world see us totally in the image of the Dallas police when our President is murdered.

I think this objective may be satisfied by making public as soon as possible a complete and thorough FBI report on Oswald and the assassination. This may run into the difficulty of pointing to in- consistencies between this report and statements by Dallas police officials. But the reputation of the Bureau is such that it may do the whole job. The only other step would be the appointment of a Presidential Commission of unimpeachable personnel to review and examine the evidence and announce its conclusions. This has both advantages and disadvantages. It think it can await publication of the FBI report and public reaction to it here and abroad.

I think, however, that a statement that all the facts will be made public property in an orderly and responsible way should be made now. We need something to head off public speculation or Congressional hearings of the wrong sort.

Nicholas deB. Katzenbach

Deputy Attorney General

FBI JFK Assassination File (62-109060)


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## Ryan (Aug 19, 2009)

Whats really funny is when I got the book,it was marked down at a dollar as well.Shows you how much people "at least in my area at that time" believed in that propaganda of Posners.They could not sell hardly any copies of it so it got marked down drastically. as i said previously before,the first 50 pages or so had me going.I really wanted to believe that it was the truth.and it had me believing that the first 50 pages or so.Its very cleverly written.so I can see who so many people could have allowed themselves to get brainwashed by Posners lies and propaganda.If your not careful,it can fool you.But like I said on my last post on page 5,after reading through it and knowing so much of what he said was outright lies as I proved in that post of mine-last one on page five,I got nausiated with it just like you will when you read it. 

*******
Luckily in my area of IL we have several used book sales.  I just picked up a copy of the "Oswald Affair" that I never heard of before.  It was translated to English from French and has good reviews.  If nothing else with Posner's book, I will at least have a big door stop.


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## Ryan (Aug 19, 2009)

Regarding the deflected first shot, it comes from Posner's book, Case Closed.

The Warren Commission did determine that one man could fire all 3 shots, so I don't understand your last sentence. 

*********
I hope the following will explain to your satisfaction that the "lone gunman" theory could not be sustained by the rifle test conducted by the Warren Commision's own tests.

The Warren Commision employed three riflemen rated as Masters by the NRA to fire the Mannlicher Carcano during shooting tests.  Out of 5 shooting NRA grades, Master is the highest level and only awarded to the most outstanding riflemen.  Two of the riflemen where were civilians and one was in the US Army at the time of the tests.  The 6th story window was 60 feet off the ground where the Master Marksmen fired from an elevation estimated by Ronald Simmons, Chief of the Infantry Weapons Evaluation Branch of the Ballistics Research Labratory of the Department of the Army, to be 30 feet off the ground.  Oswald supposedly fired at moving target where the experts fired at a stationary targets.  In the simulated environment these experts could commence firing whenever they were ready where the assassin(s) had to shoot while the target presented itself.

In addition to this circumstance the rifle sight was rebuilt.  As Simmmons states, "they could not sight the weapon in," he explains "well they could not sight the weapon in using the telescope."  Simmons also pointed out that rifle aiming device was rebuilt by a machinist who added two shims, one which tended to adjust the azmith and the other the elevation.  Simmons, just like the riflemen, was employed by the Warren Commission.  

The experts fired two series of three shots, 6 each for a total of 18 shots, at three stationary targets placed at distaces of 175, 240 and 265 feet respectively.  According to Simmons who arranged the test the targets were not as far apart as they should have been to represent the actual position of the limo.  Simmons stated that the condition of the field was a "little awkward."  

Of the three experts, only one was able to get off the three shots in the required time where he fired three shots 4.6 and 5.1 seconds.  The other two Master Riflemen required 6.45, 6.75, 7.0 and 8.25 seconds.  Not one of the 18 shots struck the head or neck area of the targets.  These tests where conducted under far less demanding circumstances then was attributed to a below average shooter LHO.  So you not only have a rifle and rifleman unable to make these shots but you have 3 outstanding riflemen, not "novices," at far less demanding conditions with a rebuilt scope unable to score one hit on easier shots and only 1 to make the shots in the time frame as determined by the Warren Commission.

This major problem was addressed to some degree by Buglioso where he claims that Oswald used the iron sights.  I am not sure what sight picture the Mannlicher Carcano would offer with a scope on the weapon but I addressed the unlikelyhood of that issue in earlier post.  What is worth noting is that Bugliosi knows that the rifle and scope on the Manlicher Carcano make for a bad theory.


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## LA RAM FAN (Aug 19, 2009)

Bfgrn said:


> Interesting...you continue to rant and rave and call people conspiracy "loons"...but you refuse to address the first wound of the "supposed" single bullet in the President's back, not in his neck as the Warren Commission FALSELY claimed in their report and in their illustrations entered as evidence. You refuse to answer WHY the Warren Report CHANGED the location of the wound and even CHANGED the description on that wound from "back" to "back of neck"...
> 
> HERE is documented proof that officials in the HIGHEST levels of our government wanted to "cut off" all speculation of a second gunman and wanted nothing BUT an outcome from the Warren Commission that Oswald acted alone...
> 
> ...



Its also interesting that this lone nut loon refuses to look at my last post on page 5 cause he knows it proves what a pathalogical liar Posner is.This lone nut theorist also is a joke claiming we havent read Posners book when like I said,I got interested in the JFK assassination after the movie came out that I read over a 100 books on it "including" Posners fantasy CASE CLOSED.This lone nut theorist has no credibility in the fact that he refuses to address your points or my last post on page 5 I keep asking him to look at and also that HE wont take me up on my challenge to read CASE OPEN since he obviously only sees what he WANTS to see and just wants to go on all these laughable rants and raves.


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## Kerry Won Ohio (Aug 21, 2009)

Bfgrn said:


> Kerry Won Ohio said:
> 
> 
> > My God, that Wisconsin professor David Wrone is a total fucking idiot --
> ...





> Interesting...you continue to rant and rave and call people conspiracy "loons"...but you refuse to address the first wound of the "supposed" single bullet in the President's back, not in his neck as the Warren Commission FALSELY claimed in their report and in their illustrations entered as evidence. You refuse to answer WHY the Warren Report CHANGED the location of the wound and even CHANGED the description on that wound from "back" to "back of neck"...



I didn't address it because I have no idea what you're trying to imply!!  So the Warren Commission changed the location of Kennedy's wounds and this AUTOMATICALLY means a conspiracy???  You're not jumping from A to B, dude...you're jumping from A to X!

Regardless, Posner discusses this in his book and shows that all of these so-called "changes" are total nonsense.


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## Bfgrn (Aug 21, 2009)

Kerry Won Ohio said:


> Bfgrn said:
> 
> 
> > Kerry Won Ohio said:
> ...



You have NO idea what I'm trying to imply? REALLY???

The single bullet theory depends TOTALLY on the wounds of the two men lining up...THEY DON'T...and I presented PROOF the Warren Commission MOVED the location of the first wound and CHANGED the description in the final report...I don't understand why this isn't clear to you and why you can't see the implications of the wound being moved...

The only nonsense going on here is you, your false accusations and your Posner nonsense... there IS NO "Regardless" if you can't get me past the first set of wounds...

You keep talking conspiracy...I am ONLY talking about physical and medical evidence... The LOGICAL approach is to follow the evidence to a logical conclusion...You can bring out all the Posners in the universe, it can't erase the OBVIOUS flaw in the single bullet theory...

It is clear you are unable to discuss this in an intelligent manner...


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## Ryan (Aug 21, 2009)

Here is a brief snippet from a WS where Howard Donahue gives his opinion on the shooting in Dealey Plaza and just as interesting his view on Gerald Posner.  Donahue was one of the 11 riflemen used in the CBS rifle test and in fact Donahue's shooting was best among the riflemen.  Donahue has come to believe that the third shot an JFK was an accidental discharge by Secret Service Agent George Hickey.  That theory is certainly worth considering but the more important fact is that a volunteer participant in the most extensive test to date holds the belief that the "lone gunman" theory is very unlikely based on the time frames.  Here is Donahue' brief observation on Posner and the link.

-----
    I asked Howard Donahue about Posner's assertion. Donahue was a court-certified firearms expert and a world-class marksman. He was invited to participate in the famous 1967 CBS rifle test and achieved the best score of the simulation. He testified in several cases as an expert witness on firearms issues. Here is what Donahue said about Posner's claim (all emphasis is original):

Dear Mike: Sept. 11, 1996 

Concerning the case with the damaged lip. Posner claims it could have held a projectile at that time. Let me explain something about Posner. He will tell you anything to make a point. There were NO SHELLS DENTED IN THAT MANNER BY THE HSCA. I will refer you to Professor Thompson's book, SIX SECONDS IN DALLAS, page 144, exhibit no. 543. Dr. Thompson discovered this case had been fired (dry fired) at least three times. He also tried to dent the cases by throwing them against a wall, to no avail. Just to prove this, I am enclosing a fired 6.5 mm Carcano case. Throw it around any way you wish and try to dent it. These cases are very strong. It could have only been dented by feeding the case into the breech of the gun with great force. This would be from the clip. . . .

In closing, I have never seen a case dented like this. Dr. Thompson never saw any cases so deformed. So Posner says the HSCA had several empties dented like these??? 

Thanks for your interest--please keep in touch. 

Howard Donahue, Firearms Examiner

--------
DENT


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## Ryan (Aug 21, 2009)

Here is another section from a web-sight I find interesting.  Of particular interest is the quote of the late Carlos Hathcock, a name that is well known by military shooting enthusiats and would certainly discredit anyone claiming that the "lone gunman" theorists are correct in contending that the string of fire was "easy."  It was near to impossible for Oswald to make those shots under the best circumstances and of course the rifle/scope could not be sighted in at the time of the shooting.  In view of these facts, how can anyone believe people like Posner and Bugliosi?       

----




The impossibility of Oswald's alleged shooting feat was what led former Marine sniper Craig Roberts to reject the lone-gunman theory. Roberts explains as he recounts the first time he visited the sixth floor of the Texas School Book Depository: 

I turned my attention to the window in the southeast corner--the infamous Sniper's Nest. . . . I immediately felt like I had been hit with a sledge hammer. The word that came to mind at what I saw as I looked down through the window to Elm Street and the kill zone was: IMPOSSIBLE!

I knew instantly that Oswald could not have done it. . . . The reason I knew that Oswald could not have done it, was that *I* could not have done it. (KILL ZONE: A SNIPER LOOKS AT DEALEY PLAZA, p. 5) 

Retired Gunnery Sergeant Carlos Hathcock is likewise skeptical of Oswald's alleged shooting feat. Hathcock is a former senior instructor at the U. S. Marine Corps Sniper Instruction School at Quantico, Virginia. He has been described as the most famous American military sniper in history. In Vietnam he was credited with 93 confirmed kills. He now conducts police SWAT team sniper schools across the country. Craig Roberts asked Hathcock about the marksmanship feat attributed to Oswald by the Warren Commission. Hathcock answered that he did not believe Oswald could have done what the Commission said he did. Added Hathcock, 

Let me tell you what we did at Quantico. We reconstructed the whole thing: the angle, the range, the moving target, the time limit, the obstacles, everything. I don't know how many times we tried it, but we couldn't duplicate what the Warren Commission said Oswald did. (KILL ZONE, pp. 89-90)

Oswald A Poor Shot?


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## LA RAM FAN (Aug 21, 2009)

Bfgrn said:


> Kerry Won Ohio said:
> 
> 
> > Bfgrn said:
> ...



well said.and dont forget to mention how he wont even look at my last post on page 5 that proves  Posner is a liar or is open minded enough to read Case Open either.


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## Ryan (Aug 22, 2009)

I was thumbing through Posner's "Case Closed" looking at some of the shooting information.  Some of Posner's data really stood out, I find it interesting to note that he offers the HSCA minimum bolt manipulation time frame to be 1.66 seconds as opposed to the FBI data of 2.25 to 2.3 seconds.  As Posner stated, "that minimum time frame is now out of date."  What does this mean?  Why did Posner not have a further explanation?   Could the FBI just had another bad day or those Committee people where just better exhibition shooters?

What Posner should have included is that the rifle tested by the HSCA, to determine the minimum time frame for the operating the bolt, was not the same Carcano that was found on the 6th floor of the school book depository.  Any military surplus rifle may vary greatly from the condition of the firearm and even perhaps the original military contract.  The operation of the bolt could be very difficult on one rifle and move with complete ease on another rifle.  So the time frame is not "out of date," the HSCA data is invalid.  This invalid data appears to be an important aspect of Posner's reasoning.

The question then remains, was Posner's research so cursory that he did not know these facts?  Or was Posner being dishonest and intentionally duping anyone of the many uninformed who reads his book in good faith?  

What bit of evidence still exists from the 3 shooting trials that lending any credibility to the possibility that "lone gunman" theory is even remotely possible?  The tests provide much proof against the "lone gunman" theory but nothing to support this theory.


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## LA RAM FAN (Aug 22, 2009)

As I mentioned earlier,people need to be careful when reading Posners book.Its very cleverly written.so cleverly written INITIALLY it had me buying into it.But then he went on to expose himself for the fraud he is by his outright lies I mentioned earlier and the book failed to mention that his law firm is a lobbying firm for the CIA.


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## LA RAM FAN (Aug 22, 2009)

Bfgrn said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> > Whoa there cowboy...we're talking the law of physics...You've been confronted with physical and medical evidence that the path of a single bullet passing through the President and hitting the Governor in the back is not possible... you really need to explain in detail HOW a bullet entering the President's back at the level of the third thoracic vertebra traveling on a downward and to the left angle from a sixth floor window can exit his throat from a wound six inches higher?
> ...



This post right here that this lone nut theorist blatantly ignores, proves Posner is delusional and has fantasys about Oswald being the lone assassian.


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## Againsheila (Aug 22, 2009)

rightwinger said:


> Bfgrn said:
> 
> 
> > xsited1 said:
> ...



Watched a series on the history channel.  A few seconds after the shots were fired, a police officer, who was right outside the door of the schoolbook depository, ran in.  He saw Oswald in the basement, where witnesses had put him all morning.  He was not out of breath...there were 7 people on the stairs, none of them had seen Oswald running down the stairs, the elevator took several minutes, now unless you can figure out a way that Oswald could get down 7 floors without being seen in less than 30 seconds....there is no way he could have done it.  Unless of course, you call the cop a liar.....

And I don't understand how anyone can believe that magic bullet theory.


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## LA RAM FAN (Aug 22, 2009)

9/11 inside job said:


> Rational man you really need to change your user name to IRRATIONAL MAN.I have read that propaganda of Posners and its filled with tons of lies.the only nonsense is the warren commission and Posners lone nut theory propagated by the government and corporate controlled media.Posner doesnt debunk shit in that book.
> 
> Just like the warren commission,he ignores key evidence and facts.He talks about Ed Hoffman the death mute who was there that day  in his book and makes up all kinds of lies about him.I know cause I have researched the kennedy assassination ever since 93 and have met witnesses that were there that day including Ed Hoffman.Hoffman told me he cried when he saw all the lies made up about him,words and actions of Hoffmans that Hoffman said he never said or did.He tells out right lies also that Ruby had no connections to the mob.Proven lie.Your ALSO not aware that Maria Oswald herself has called Posner out over the years,saying he is an outright liar and disinformation agent.
> 
> ...



as does THIS post of mine ALSO prove that Posner has fantasys of Oswald being the lone nut gunman and that he is also a pathetic liar.yeah do this.Finish reading Posners book Case Closed THEN read Harold Weinbergs book-Case Open.Weinberg points out the lies and disinformation of Posner and proves him to be the fraud that he is as well.


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## OneWorld (Aug 22, 2009)

Read it... great book.


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## Againsheila (Aug 22, 2009)

Kerry Won Ohio said:


> Ryan said:
> 
> 
> > The first shot hit a tree branch and got deflected. That is why he missed Kennedy on the first shot.
> ...



Question:  Why would Oswald wait until the car passed the school book depository to shoot JFK?  Why wouldn't he  have shot him when he was closer?  The car came down the road and turned right in front of the school book depository...any sniper worth his salt would have shot Kennedy then, not when he was driving away.


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## LA RAM FAN (Aug 22, 2009)

Againsheila said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> > Bfgrn said:
> ...



Their clearly in denial and only see what they WANT to see.What Posner also fails to mention in his book as well is that several of Garrisons investigaters also tried to run down the stairs in the 30 seconds they said Oswald pulled off this miracle feat and they could not do it.they were out of breath and they didnt even come close to making it back down within 30 seconds.


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## LA RAM FAN (Aug 22, 2009)

OneWorld said:


> Read it... great book.



I assume your referring to the book Case Open? because yeah,your right that IS a great book.


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## LA RAM FAN (Aug 22, 2009)

Kerry Won Ohio said:


> 9/11 inside job said:
> 
> 
> > Kerry Won Ohio said:
> ...



you post lies as usual.the only bullshit is the stuff YOU have been posting about Posner.Treating him like he is a god when he is a proven pathalogial liar.as this thread starter has proven to you and you have blantantly ignored.


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## LA RAM FAN (Aug 22, 2009)

Kerry Won Ohio said:


> Bfgrn said:
> 
> 
> > Kerry Won Ohio said:
> ...



read my post FIRST post on page 11,I posted it for you AGAIN  since you keep ignoring it,it PROVES Posner is delusional and has fantasys about oswald being the lone assassian and that he is a pathalogical liar.


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## LA RAM FAN (Aug 22, 2009)

Againsheila said:


> Kerry Won Ohio said:
> 
> 
> > Ryan said:
> ...



yeah thats what I was saying earlier.As the diagram points out that the thread starter was kind enough to furnish for us which I just posted again above on this page,is Oswald was going to take the shot,he would have done it where he has a clear open view and clear target which is what he had on Houston coming towards him.He sure as hell wouldnt wait till he got onto Elm and drove away where the shot was MUCH more difficult.Matter of fact,I cant remember the authors name but he wrote a book called A SNIPERS NEST.

He was a highly decorated marksmen in vietnam and years later after the assassination,he was up in dallas for some convention for his job,so while waiting around,he went up to the school depository and he knew immediately,that the warren commissions explantion that oswald fired the rifle,was B.S.he knew it cause he knew HE could not have done it.It was a moving target and with an unreliable carcano rifle to shoot with,those conditions made it impossible to pull it off.Not to mention the investigaters found oswalds rifle scope to be badly misalingned and thet the trees were in full bloom as well back then also making it impossible.and like i said earlier as well,he also mentioned in his book that he had dozens of kills and he never once saw a persons head go BACKWARDSs when he shot them from behind.plus anybody who knows anything at all about forensics knows the blood goes forward NOT backwards when shooting them from behind as well.yet the driver and the secret serviceman in front of connely were not splattered with blood but the police motercycle patrolmen riding behind the wheel of kennedy was.to accept the warren commissions version and Posners fantasys,you got to say that the laws of physics that scientisits have gone by for thousands of years,no longer apply anymore.


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## Kerry Won Ohio (Aug 23, 2009)

9/11 inside job said:


> Kerry Won Ohio said:
> 
> 
> > 9/11 inside job said:
> ...



Posner is a "proven pathalogical liar", but Garrisson is not??  That's fucking hilarious!!  You are truly stupid!!

You probably haven't even read Posner's book, like all of the conspiracy dipshits on this thread.  None of you idiots have refuted anything meaningful in his book.

This is an indisputable fact -- the ONLY SHOOTER identified by witnesses on the day of the assassination was Oswald on the 6th floor of the book depository.  NO WITNESSES mentioned seeing any other shooters on the grassy knoll or anywhere else.

The fact that you actually still BELIEVE Garrisson's bullshit shows that you are hopelessly lost.  The 1970s are over, moron.


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## Kerry Won Ohio (Aug 23, 2009)

OneWorld said:


> Read it... great book.



_Case Closed_ is a great book.  However, it's only for people that _truly_ want to know the truth -- which excludes nutjobs like "9/11 inside job" and his little conspiracy buddies.

These conspiracy idiots wouldn't believe Oswald committed the assassination all by himself if they had video of that day from every conceivable angle.  It's just too difficult for some people to believe that one loser nobody like Oswald can change the course of history with a few gunshots.  So they get these fantastic notions in their head and they will always remain there, no matter what.


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## Kerry Won Ohio (Aug 23, 2009)

Bfgrn said:


> Kerry Won Ohio said:
> 
> 
> > Bfgrn said:
> ...





> The single bullet theory depends TOTALLY on the wounds of the two men lining up...THEY DON'T



Wrong again, they certainly do line up.  Just because you don't want to believe it, doesn't make it so.  The forensic evidence that Posner discusses in his book shows that the shot could have come from _only one_ possible location -- the 6th floor corner window where Oswald was.

If the Warren Commission was trying to cover-up something regarding the autopsy report, then they wouldn't have been so clumsy about it.  And they weren't trying to cover anything up, as Posner shows in his book.

*And if the Warren Commission was trying to push the lone gunman theory, then why woudn't they just lie about how long the shooting lasted? -- instead of saying Oswald fired all 3 shots in 6 seconds, they could have just said 10 seconds. * This would have given Oswald even more time to fire all 3 shots.  (Incidentally, Posner shows that the shooting actually lasted 8 seconds, so the Warren Commission was wrong when it said it lasted 6 seconds).

You probably haven't even read Posner's book, so this discussion is pointless.


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## Ryan (Aug 23, 2009)

Kerry Won Ohio said:


> 9/11 inside job said:
> 
> 
> > Kerry Won Ohio said:
> ...



The only witness to identify Oswald was Howard Brennan.  Is this the witness you have referred to in this recent post and a earlier post?  Brennan's description of Oswald supposedly standing in a half closed window led to the manhunt for Oswald.  The details of height and weight of the rifleman supposedly came from Brennan and went out over the police radios immediately.  A remarkable feat since much of anyone standing in that location would be obscurred by bricks.

Later Brennan claimed to the Dallas Police that he could not identify Oswald in a DP line up.  Subsequent to his failure or refusal to identify Oswald, Brennan then claimed that he lied and the truth was that he really could identify Oswald.  He stated that he was scared for his safety even though the FBI was providing 24 protection.  Do you remember this now because Posner tried to explain it away?  Why does Posner coddle Brennan but then criticizes Jean Hills inconsistant statements that were no where near as bad as Brennan's statements? 

This is the WC star witness and Posner's main source of eyewitness proof.  Howard Brennan is a terrible source.  Name another witness that specifically identified Oswald as the 6th floor rifleman.  Jackson, Couch, Crawford, Mitchell, Cabell Worrell or Euins did not identify Oswald.  So besides Brennan who else identified LHO?  

There were scores of witnesses that thought the shots came from the grass knoll including Mercer, Bowers, Price, Holland and Deputy Constable Weitzman.  Many witnesses in Dealey Plaza were not interviewed by the WC.  Any skilled rifleman/sniper would avoid detection.  

What is the case against Garrison?


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## Bfgrn (Aug 23, 2009)

Kerry Won Ohio said:


> Bfgrn said:
> 
> 
> > Kerry Won Ohio said:
> ...



They ONLY line up when you use the FALSE location of the entrance wound the Warren Commission MOVED!!!

*Warren Commission exhibit CE 386* (NOTE the entrance wound in the President's NECK)








*Warren Commission exhibit CE 385* (NOTE the path of the bullet CRITICAL to the single bullet theory based on the FALSE location of the entrance wound)





HERE is the ACTUAL location of the BACK wound (NOTE the 7 X4 mm)...

Official autopsy face sheet signed by the President's personal physician...





Which MATCHES the President's clothing...


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## Kerry Won Ohio (Aug 24, 2009)

Ryan said:


> Kerry Won Ohio said:
> 
> 
> > 9/11 inside job said:
> ...



Even if what you're saying about Brennan is true (which I doubt), you're essentialy admitting that there was someone shooting at Kennedy from the 6th floor of the school book depository.  And there were also 3 men standing directly below Oswald on the 5th floor who heard all 3 shots loud and clear.  As I mentioned earlier, there is a picture in Posner's book of these 3 men trying to look up through their window on the 5th floor to see the shooter on the 6th floor.  The picture was taken a few seconds after the shooting.



> There were scores of witnesses that thought the shots came from the grass knoll including Mercer, Bowers, Price, Holland and Deputy Constable Weitzman.



NONE (let me repeat, NONE!!) of these "witnesses" came forward immediately after the shooting.  Brennan did come forward immediately, which automatically gives him much more credibility.


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## Kerry Won Ohio (Aug 24, 2009)

> They ONLY line up when you use the FALSE location of the entrance wound the Warren Commission MOVED!!!



This whole discussion is pointless and you are TOTALLY missing the point.  Why would the Warren Commission have to use the 6th floor location to "line up" the wounds, if they were complicit in a conspiracy (as you say)?  Why couldn't they just pick *ANOTHER LOCATION* to line up Kennedy and Connally wounds??  Similarly, why didn't the Warren Commission just state that Oswald had 10 seconds to fire all 3 shots instead of 6 seconds (giving Oswald much more time to fire all 3 shots)???  

You conspiracy buffs are hilarious -- you believe certain parts of the Warren Commission report that conform to your conspiracy beliefs (such as 6 seconds to fire all 3 shots), but not others.  You pick and choose your bullshit "inconsistencies".  Your whole notion of a Warren Commission conspiracy is just a very weak house of cards.


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## Bfgrn (Aug 24, 2009)

Kerry Won Ohio said:


> > They ONLY line up when you use the FALSE location of the entrance wound the Warren Commission MOVED!!!
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I'm missing the point???...You're really showing how little you know about this case. 

Why would the Warren Commission have to use the 6th floor location to "line up" the wounds, if they were complicit in a conspiracy (as you say)?  Why couldn't they just pick *ANOTHER LOCATION* to line up Kennedy and Connally wounds??

WHY didn't the Warren Commission pick another location? Do I REALLY have to explain THAT to you??? Did they find a rifle and 3 cartridges on the 6th floor of the Dal-Tex building, the County Court Records, the County Criminal Court or the old courthouse building? Did Lee Harvey Oswald work at the Dal-Tex building, County Court Records, the County Criminal Court or the old courthouse building? HELLO, is anybody home???

Similarly, why didn't the Warren Commission just state that Oswald had 10 seconds to fire all 3 shots instead of 6 seconds (giving Oswald much more time to fire all 3 shots)???  

6 seconds, 10 seconds or an hour is irrelevant as far as Oswald having the time to fire the shots...BUT...time becomes paramount when a certain piece of EVIDENCE called the Zapruder film is entered into the case. The time frame was determined by the REACTIONS of the victims to their wounds as seen on that piece of hard evidence called the Zapruder film. The film proves ONE gunman with a bolt action rifle DOESN'T have the TIME to inflict the first wound to the President, cock the weapon, re-aim AND inflict the wounds to Governor Connally with two separate shots...

You conspiracy buffs are hilarious -- you believe certain parts of the Warren Commission report that conform to your conspiracy beliefs (such as 6 seconds to fire all 3 shots), but not others.  You pick and choose your bullshit "inconsistencies".  Your whole notion of a Warren Commission conspiracy is just a very weak house of cards. 

You call ME a conspiracy buff??? YOUR frinkin' screen name IS a conspiracy theory!!!!!!!!! Back off your high and mighty pontifications...

YOU have ignored hard EVIDENCE crucial to the single bullet theory...I've place that Warren Commission's evidence right in front of you and you still refuse to see it! 

NOW...you REALLY need to answer my question....WHY did the Warren Commission MOVE the first wound??? There MUST be a LOGICAL reason...


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## Kerry Won Ohio (Aug 25, 2009)

Bfgrn said:


> Kerry Won Ohio said:
> 
> 
> > > They ONLY line up when you use the FALSE location of the entrance wound the Warren Commission MOVED!!!
> ...





> WHY didn't the Warren Commission pick another location? Do I REALLY have to explain THAT to you??? Did they find a rifle and 3 cartridges on the 6th floor of the Dal-Tex building, the County Court Records, the County Criminal Court or the old courthouse building? Did Lee Harvey Oswald work at the Dal-Tex building, County Court Records, the County Criminal Court or the old courthouse building? HELLO, is anybody home???



Excuse me, weren't you the one who posted that idiotic _Case Closed_ book review by that Wisconsin professor??  You know, the one that said there was "no credible evidence" linking Oswald to the assassination??  So now you are contradicting your own lame ass posts!!  You're looking more and more foolish by the minute.



> 6 seconds, 10 seconds or an hour is irrelevant as far as Oswald having the time to fire the shots...BUT...time becomes paramount when a certain piece of EVIDENCE called the Zapruder film is entered into the case. The time frame was determined by the REACTIONS of the victims to their wounds as seen on that piece of hard evidence called the Zapruder film. The film proves ONE gunman with a bolt action rifle DOESN'T have the TIME to inflict the first wound to the President, cock the weapon, re-aim AND inflict the wounds to Governor Connally with two separate shots...



100% wrong, as I've already explained.  The film doesn't "prove" more than one gunman, you are delusional.  The first shot completly missed and the second shot hit Kennedy and Connelly.  If Connelly had been hit by 2 shots, his leg and his wrist would have been in much worse shape.  In fact, the bullet barely penetrated Connelly's leg and fell out of his leg at the hospital because it had lost so much velocity after going through Kennedy and Connelly's chest.  And if Connelly was hit by 2 separate bullets, why wasn't the other bullet ever recovered???  Hell, they found remnants of the first shot that completely missed.  

Again, Posner goes through all of this in _Case Closed_, which you obviously haven't read or you just willfully choose to ignore the facts.



> You call ME a conspiracy buff??? YOUR frinkin' screen name IS a conspiracy theory!!!!!!!!! Back off your high and mighty pontifications...



No, I don't believe there was a coordinated conspiracy to steal the election from Kerry.  Just a few corrupt Repug election officials stole the election on their own.  I have REAL evidence to back up my beliefs - the exit polls indicate that Kerry won.



> YOU have ignored hard EVIDENCE crucial to the single bullet theory...I've place that Warren Commission's evidence right in front of you and you still refuse to see it!
> 
> NOW...you REALLY need to answer my question....WHY did the Warren Commission MOVE the first wound??? There MUST be a LOGICAL reason...



This evidence is "crucial" only in your mind.  A couple of crappy illustrations don't mean a damn thing.  Posner explains these supposed inconsistencies in his book.  It's been over 10 years since I read the book and I can't remember everything.  

Just do yourself a favor and read Posner's book.


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## Ryan (Aug 25, 2009)

Kerry Won Ohio said:


> Ryan said:
> 
> 
> > Kerry Won Ohio said:
> ...



Most of what I posted on Brennan could be confirmed by Posner's book "Case Closed on pages 247- 250.  There is alot more to Brennan that Posner does not include.  The identification of LHO went out over the Dallas Police radio at 12:45, just about 15 minutes after the assassination.  What causes some controversy is that Brennan claims to have first given that description of LHO to a Dallas PO and Secret Service Agent Forrest Sorrels within minutes of the shooting.  Agent Sorrels disagrees saying that he was in the lead car that rushed the following JFK limo to parkland Hospital.  Sorrels testfied that he could not have met with Brennan until well after 1PM.  So wherever that first description and radio report  at 12:45 came from is a unclear.  Brennan's insists that he spoke with Agent Sorrels and a DPO within minutes of the assassination and he is supposed to be the source of the radio description but all this confusion is a very strong reason to doubt Brennan's recollection of all the events.  Sorrels was at Parkland at the time of the radio transmission.

Brennan's description of the actions he viewed on the 6th floor is contradicted by Arnold Rowland who also came fourth immediately.  The handing of Rowland and is wife by the WC is very interesting in itself but the point for this discussion is that  Rowland could not identify LHO as any of the men he saw.  Rowland claimed to have seen several others before the shooting but was ignored by the WC.  Brennan was about 100 feet and Rowland at 150 away from the book depository and 6o feet below the half opened window.  A considerable distance to make a positve identification.

As I pointed out earlier, Brennan did not identify LHO in DPD line after the assassination.  As a matter of fact Brennan did not identify Oswald until after LHO was killed by Jack Ruby and of course Brennan could have by that time seen the face of the man several times in the paper and on television.  After the FBI visited Brennan, he then claimed to recognize LHO as the man he had seen on the 6th floor.  Brennan claimed he could have identified LHO at the time of DPD lineup but refused because he was afraid of a much wider Communist Conspiracy that he still claimed to fear even while testifying at the WC.  It's worth noting that Brennan was giving television interviews that whole weekend apparently without any concern for his safety, yet he either lied to the Dallas Police or the Warren Commission on whether he was able to identify LHO.  

Brennan also testified that during the shooting he dove for cover from protection from the bullets behind the wall he was seated.  This position of Brennan was photographed before the shooting.  If this is true of Brennan's actions he would have afforded only cover from the grassy knoll and remained in full view of the 6th floor.  At the same time a stream of witnesses ran toward the grassy knoll.

Brennan traveled to DC which on the same flight as the Black witnesses he claimed to observe on the 5th floor.  Brennan also claimed to have identified those same two Blacks as they exited the book depository but Sorrels explicitly denied this claim by Brennan.  As Brennan testified, "throughout my entire life, I could never remember what a colored person looks like if he got out of my sight.  And I always  thought that if I had to identify a colored person I could not.  But by coincidence that one time I did recognize those two boys."

While in DC the Commision asked Brennan if his "recognition of the Negroes on the day of the assassination was as good as his recognition of the rifleman."  To this question Brennan answered, "yes, at the time it was.  Now, the boys rode up with me on the plane, of course I recognize them now."  Later when the WC asked Brennan to identify the two Blacks in the hearing room Brennan said "I dont know which of those two... No; I won't say for sure .  I can't tell which of those two it was...  I saw two but I can't identify which one it was."  Still the WC found that Brennan identified the two out of a lineup of three.

The truth is that Brennan was a mess, by his own he admission he either lied to the DPD or the WC.  He was neither timely, accurate or credible but he was WC star witness in the murder of the President of the US and the conerstone of Posner's witness argument.

Without going into the details Posner was also dishonest in the way he covered Mark Lane in that section of eyewitnesses in his book.  Brennan and his questionable vision was a legitmate point handled by very well by Lane.


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## Ryan (Aug 25, 2009)

Most people do not seem to appreciate what is the true meaning of the word conspiracy.  My understanding is that a conspiracy includes any illegal planing by two or more persons, which no doubt occurs often.  I am sure, there are more precise meanings but my point is that the term is not understood very well and therefore the phrase "conspiracy theory" has become a pejorative term to somehow effortlessly discredit one legitimize another.  

The truth is that throughout history "conspiracy theories" abounded and have become accepted as fact.  In the Bible from the "Fall of Man" to the book of "Revelations" and all points in between is loaded with "conspiracy theories" that are accepted on the basis of faith.  Therefore are all religious people "conspiracy theorists"?  Every time a law enforcement agency investigates a crime involving two or more persons they should start with a "conspiracy theory."  Are all law enforcement agents "conspiracy theorists"?

If Lee Harvey Oswald did in fact assassinate JFK and at any point received assistance from another that knew of his plans or actions then that would be a "conspiracy."  Of course the guilt of LHO is far from certain despite his strange character.  The bottom line is that we are surrounded by "conspiracy theories" and those that back their beliefs up with detailed information presented in good faith are the one's that deserve the most credibility.  I tend to appreciate one's that go out on a limb and take a well thought out and unpopular position.


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## LA RAM FAN (Aug 25, 2009)

Kerry Won Ohio said:


> 9/11 inside job said:
> 
> 
> > Kerry Won Ohio said:
> ...



the only moron posting here is YOU!!!. Yes NOW your learning.Yes Posner is a proven pathalogical liar and Garrison is NOT. and I already proved I  HAVE read that fantasy book of Posners idiot with my FIRST post  on page 11 that YOU refuse to read cause your so much afraid of the truth and only see what you WANT to see.the only idiot here is you and the only one that hasnt refuted anything is you.thats why you have stooped to childish insults and name calling cause you know you cant refute them.No the fact that YOU still "BELIEVE" that bullshit that Oswald killed Kennedy shows that YOU are hopelessly lost,afraid of the truth,and in serious denial.


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## LA RAM FAN (Aug 25, 2009)

Kerry Won Ohio said:


> OneWorld said:
> 
> 
> > Read it... great book.
> ...



Yes CASE OPEN "IS" a great book.and yes it is only for people who want to know the truth and ALSO are open minded which EXCLUDES you and Irrational Man. CASE OPEN debunks everyone of Posners fantasys he has.PROOF that you are afraid of the truth and only see what you WANT to see and you ignore evidence and facts is I just copied my post that I kept referring you to and posted it AGAIN for the hundreth time in my first post on page 11 to make sure you knew which post I was referring to.That post PROVES Posner only has fantasys that Oswald was the lone assassin and is a pathalogical liar.YOU never addressed that post despite the many times I asked you to cause you know you cant refute it.You havent been able to refute ANYTHING wer have thrown at you.you keep posting all kinds of proven B.S  just to try and save face.

Guys this frady cat deniar has been totally brainwashed by the lies and propaganda of Posners book.He refuses to read Weinbergs book CASE OPEN that proves what a pathalogical liar Posner is,wont address my post I asked him to MANY times which I just posted again for him in my first post on page 11 that AGAIN he ignored.Has not addressed many of the thread starters points he has brought up that prove the warren commission and posner have fantasys about oswald being the lone gunman,that being the case,since he has proven he is so much in denial and afraid of the truth,I strongly suggest you guys do what Im going to do.Ignore him.No sense in trying to reason with someone when they only see what they WANT to see as this guy has proven in spades.


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## Bfgrn (Aug 25, 2009)

Kerry Won Ohio said:


> Bfgrn said:
> 
> 
> > Kerry Won Ohio said:
> ...





WOW Kerry Lost Ohio...I'm seeing a pattern develop here...you're proving A) you know NOTHING about the assassination of President Kennedy beyond what Gerald Posner has filled your head with B) you draw false or irrelevant conclusions from my posts and C) you are unable to see the OBVIOUS and instead embrace the abstract and ridiculous...

Those "crappy illustrations" you refer to are OFFICIAL EXHIBITS of the Warren Commission. The _*CE*_ in CE 385 & CE 386 MEANS *C*ommission *E*xhibit! They are illustrations of the "official" version of the Warren Commission's conclusion of what happened on November 22, 1963...a conclusion Gerald Posner embraces...

You discount and dismiss the FACT the Warren Commission MOVED the President's first wound UP to his neck from it's actual lower location in his BACK. THEN, you don't even QUESTION that "MAGICALLY" the new location "just happens" to line up with the Commission's single bullet theory. A critical conclusion because without the single bullet theory, there are too many wounds and not enough shots, THUS, the Warren Commission would have been forced to look for other gunmen...

What David Wrone believes Oswald's role was in the assassination is TOTALLY irrelevant...the only relevant entity that matters in what Oswald's role was in the assassination is the government that arrested and charged him.

NO ONE is denying that shots were fired from behind and above the motorcade... the ONLY question is if he (Oswald, Donald Duck or whoever) acted alone...

You can't get me past the first wound... thus, you fail...


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## Againsheila (Aug 25, 2009)

Bfgrn said:


> Kerry Won Ohio said:
> 
> 
> > Bfgrn said:
> ...



Actually, we don't know if the only shots were fired from above and behind the motorcade.  It's impossible to tell where the bullet entered Kennedy's head and where it exited as his brain completely disappeared.......funny how things like that happen, isn't it.  Some people still believe Sirhan Sirhan killed Robert Kennedy too even though the panels in the room with the bullet holes in them disappeared as well.  And the autopsy showed that the bullet that killed him was fired from no more than 6 inches away from his head but witnesses grabbed Sirhan, Sirhan and said at no time was his gun closer than two feet to Robert Kennedy.

The Boston Tea Party?  It wasn't because taxes were too high, it was because England lowered the taxes on tea and made their tea cheaper, our forefathers, who smuggled in tea, couldn't sell their tea and make a profit....face it, our government has always been corrupt and thinks nothing of lying to the people.


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## Ryan (Aug 26, 2009)

In his book "Case Closed" Posner feigns that he was concerned with the historical treatment of Howard Brennan.  Yet Posner does not have any worthwhile examples which he refers to as attack on Brennan by those who do not accept the WC Report.  I have to wonder what Posner thought of Sandy Speaker's account of Brennan's treatment by federal investigators.  Speaker was Brennan's foreman as a pipe fitter on a construction project behind the Dallas Book Depositoy.

Sandy Speaker interviewed by Jim Marrs
"They took [Brennan] off for about three weeks.  I don't know if they were Secret Service or FBI, but they were federal people.  He came back a nervous wreck and within a year his hair turned snow white.  He would not talk about [the assassination] after that.  They made him say what they wanted him to say."


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## Ryan (Aug 26, 2009)

In Dealey Plaza there were scores of witnesses to the JFK assassination and not surprisingly many disagree about what occurred during that confusing event.  Many claimed that the shots originated from the "grassy knoll" others the DBD or that there were more then 3 shots.  There is are varying accounts despite what authors like Posner would suggest.  Here is an interesting account  from steel worker Richard Carr interviewed by Jim Marrs.

Carr
The FBI came to my house-there were two of them-and they said they heard I witnessed the assassination and I said I did.  They told me,  "If you did not see Lee Harvey Oswald up in the School Book Depository with a rifle, you did not witness it."  I said, Well the man I saw on television that they tell me is Lee Harvey Oswald was not in the window of the School Book Depository.  That's not the man."  And [one of the agents] said I better keep my mouth shut.  He did not ask me what I saw, he told me what I saw.


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## Ryan (Aug 26, 2009)

Sandy Speaker, Brennan's superviser, also told Marrs about a anonymous phone call A. J. Millican received in early 1964.  Millican phoned Speaker, almost in tears, and warned him never talk about the assasination again.  Millican told Speaker that he just received an anonymous phone call not only threatening his life but the lives of his wife and sisters.  He also said the caller told him to warn Speaker to keep his mouth shut.

Speaker
That call really shook me up because Millican was a former boxing champ of the Pacific fleet.  He was a scrapper, a fighter.  But he was obviously scared to death.    And I still don't underatand how they got my name because I was never interviewed by the FBI, the Secret Service the police or anyone.  They must be pretty powerful to have found out about me.


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## Ryan (Aug 26, 2009)

KWO, I just noticed your claim from Posner's book about, "3 men trying to look up through their window on the 5th floor to see the shooter on the 6th floor. The picture was taken a few seconds after the shooting."  

You must have a different edition then I do since my book has a a picture of only two men looking straight out.  As far as someone shooting from the 6th floor, I have no doubt that there was someone shooting up there.  Obviously Posner has not explained the issue very well if this is considered evidence of Oswald's guilt.


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## LA RAM FAN (Aug 26, 2009)

Againsheila said:


> Bfgrn said:
> 
> 
> > Kerry Won Ohio said:
> ...



I can only laugh at the fools who fall for the B.S of Posners that he sprouts off.Posner fails to mention that the reason many witnesses ran to the grassy knoll is because they SAW a gunman firing behind the picket fence.I guess according to Posner,those people were delusional and seeing things right? those are the laughable explanations Posner comes up with in his book when he tries to explain away his fantasys for Oswald being the lone gunman. yeah thats funny how in the RFK assassination,they removed all the evidence as well by getting rid of the ceiling panels where bullet holes were.The FBI also confiscated the pictures of a high school photographer there  who took many photos as well and never returned them.

The RFK assassination was as complete of a joke as the JFK assassination was as well in the fact that the worlds most famous coroner who has done like over a 1000 autopsys in his life,said that RFK had an entrance bullet wound to the BACK of his head which proves Sirhan could not have fired the shots since witnesses placed him in FRONT of RFK the entire time and the film footage backs them up as well.Yes we have an evil and out of control government on our hands that is never held accountable for their actions,yet the blind sheep people of the country,just want to bury their heads in the sand like an ostrich and will go on worrying about trivial little things like how their favorite team in football is doing or how their love life is,ect ect.pretty pitiful that they dont care.


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## LA RAM FAN (Aug 26, 2009)

Kerry Won Ohio said:


> YOU have ignored hard EVIDENCE crucial to the single bullet theory...I've place that Warren Commission's evidence right in front of you and you still refuse to see it!
> 
> Just do yourself a favor and read Posner's book.



Do YOURSELF a favor,and STOP falling for the lies and propaganda of Posners and worshipping him as the ultimate truth.Like he said,you have ignored hard EVIDENCE crucial to the single bullet theory.Like he said,he has placed the warren commissions so called evidence right in front of you and you still refuse to see it.Not only that,you still refuse to read my first post that I REPOSTED for you for the hundreth time just to make sure you knew what post I was referring to,and you STILL refuse to read it.You wont read it cause you know that it obviously proves what a pathalogical liar Posner really is.

for the hundreth time,do YOURSELF a favor and read Harold Weinbergs book CASE OPEN.It refutes every one of Posners fantasys he has and doesnt ignore evidence and facts like Posner conviently does.Of course as we both know,you only see what you WANT to see,so as we both know,you wont read Weinbergs book.


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## LA RAM FAN (Aug 26, 2009)

Ryan said:


> KWO, I just noticed your claim from Posner's book about, "3 men trying to look up through their window on the 5th floor to see the shooter on the 6th floor. The picture was taken a few seconds after the shooting."
> 
> You must have a different edition then I do since my book has a a picture of only two men looking straight out.  As far as someone shooting from the 6th floor, I have no doubt that there was someone shooting up there.  Obviously Posner has not explained the issue very well if this is considered evidence of Oswald's guilt.



yes that is one of many of Posners problems he has in his fairy tales is that doesnt prove oswalds guilt either.another thing that Posner ignores is there is film footage out there I have seen where a few minutes before the assassination,you can clearly see the figures of TWO men moving around in the 6th floor window moving boxes around before the assassination.obviously planting the evidence.kinda shoots the warren commissions theory that oswald was the lone gunman to pieces,that he didnt have accomplishes if he had ANYTHING to do with it.


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## Kerry Won Ohio (Aug 27, 2009)

> What David Wrone believes Oswald's role was in the assassination is TOTALLY irrelevant



Well, then...why did you post this weak-ass propoganda bullshit???



> NO ONE is denying that shots were fired from behind and above the motorcade... the ONLY question is if he (Oswald, Donald Duck or whoever) acted alone...



Not a question anymore....Posner answered it conclusively.  



> You can't get me past the first wound... thus, you fail...



I don't need to.  You will keep believing your delusions, no matter what I say.  Your "other" shot barely penetrated Connelly's leg...not very believable.  And the entrance wounds on Connelly's wrist and leg are larger than normal because the bullet started tumbling after going through Kennedy.  Yet, you are obsessed with a couple of Warren Commission exhibits that are nothing more than illustrations.  

AND WHERE IS THIS OTHER BULLET???  You yourself admitted the shots came from "above and behind" the motorcade -- so why wasn't another bullet found in the President's limo???  Of course, you have no answer for this except for more lame conspiracy nonsense. 

The only failure is on your side.  You are absolutely convinced that there is more than one shooter, yet you can't produce 1 CREDIBLE WITNESS out of the hundreds of people that were there that day.


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## Kerry Won Ohio (Aug 27, 2009)

Ryan said:


> KWO, I just noticed your claim from Posner's book about, "3 men trying to look up through their window on the 5th floor to see the shooter on the 6th floor. The picture was taken a few seconds after the shooting."
> 
> You must have a different edition then I do since my book has a a picture of only two men looking straight out.  As far as someone shooting from the 6th floor, I have no doubt that there was someone shooting up there.  Obviously Posner has not explained the issue very well if this is considered evidence of Oswald's guilt.



I haven't read the book in over 10 years and I don't have a copy, so maybe there are only 2 men in the picture.  It's not like it really matters.  I thought the photo did show the men looking up, but maybe I'm wrong about that as well.  

The men's testimony is what REALLY matters, and they told the police about what they witnessed shortly after the shooting.  I also remember Posner mentioning another eyewitness who was part of the motorcade watching the 3 men trying to look up at the 6th floor during the shooting.


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## Kerry Won Ohio (Aug 27, 2009)

Ryan said:


> Most people do not seem to appreciate what is the true meaning of the word conspiracy.  My understanding is that a conspiracy includes any illegal planing by two or more persons, which no doubt occurs often.  I am sure, there are more precise meanings but my point is that the term is not understood very well and therefore the phrase "conspiracy theory" has become a pejorative term to somehow effortlessly discredit one legitimize another.
> 
> The truth is that throughout history "conspiracy theories" abounded and have become accepted as fact.  In the Bible from the "Fall of Man" to the book of "Revelations" and all points in between is loaded with "conspiracy theories" that are accepted on the basis of faith.  Therefore are all religious people "conspiracy theorists"?  Every time a law enforcement agency investigates a crime involving two or more persons they should start with a "conspiracy theory."  Are all law enforcement agents "conspiracy theorists"?
> 
> If Lee Harvey Oswald did in fact assassinate JFK and at any point received assistance from another that knew of his plans or actions then that would be a "conspiracy."  Of course the guilt of LHO is far from certain despite his strange character.  The bottom line is that we are surrounded by "conspiracy theories" and those that back their beliefs up with detailed information presented in good faith are the one's that deserve the most credibility.  I tend to appreciate one's that go out on a limb and take a well thought out and unpopular position.





> The bottom line is that we are surrounded by "conspiracy theories" and those that back their beliefs up with detailed information presented in good faith are the one's that deserve the most credibility.  I tend to appreciate one's that go out on a limb and take a well thought out and unpopular position.



I agree with this sentiment.  I have no problem with someone trying to push a conspiracy theory, but you better have real evidence to back it up.  For all of the posturing on here about a JFK conspiracy, there is just NO substantial evidence.


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## Kerry Won Ohio (Aug 27, 2009)

9/11 inside job said:


> Ryan said:
> 
> 
> > KWO, I just noticed your claim from Posner's book about, "3 men trying to look up through their window on the 5th floor to see the shooter on the 6th floor. The picture was taken a few seconds after the shooting."
> ...



Dude, you think Garrison and Oliver Stone are credible.  Therefore, I just can't take anything you say seriously, especially after reading this crazy crap.


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## Ryan (Aug 27, 2009)

Kerry Won Ohio said:


> Ryan said:
> 
> 
> > KWO, I just noticed your claim from Posner's book about, "3 men trying to look up through their window on the 5th floor to see the shooter on the 6th floor. The picture was taken a few seconds after the shooting."
> ...



I cannot remember how long it has been since I read on the JFK assassination or what book but it has been years since I read Jim Marrs account.  I have read enough good books to strongly suspect that Posner is being intentionally deceptive and plan make his book the next I read.  

The three men referred to that were on the 5th floor Harold Norman, James Jarmen Jr. and Bonnie Ray Williams gave testimony that in several respects conflicted with each other.  Most importantly not one could offer any testimony that placed LHO on the 6th floor.  Williams was on the 6th floor sometime after 12:00 looking for his friends which he found on the 5th floor.  While on the 6th floor Williams claimed he saw no one else including LHO.  

It has been years since I read the accounts of the three but as I recall there is nothing that makes a case against LHO.  I do remember confusion by at least one as to whether the shots came from the floor above or the floor below or if the shots were fired from the west end or the east end of the building.  Williams claimed to have heard a bolt action rifle being cycled and spent casings hitting the floor above.  Very possible but somehow Posner takes this to be an eyewitness to LHO with his comment on the picture caption.  All three of the men ran to the west end of the building to view the parking area.  Maybe this is because a large segment of the crowd ran in the same direction.


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## Ryan (Aug 27, 2009)

Kerry Won Ohio said:


> Ryan said:
> 
> 
> > Most people do not seem to appreciate what is the true meaning of the word conspiracy.  My understanding is that a conspiracy includes any illegal planing by two or more persons, which no doubt occurs often.  I am sure, there are more precise meanings but my point is that the term is not understood very well and therefore the phrase "conspiracy theory" has become a pejorative term to somehow effortlessly discredit one legitimize another.
> ...



What I want is the truth.  Since I do not have a crystal ball the next best option is to test the theories that are presented.  To me the most important theories are the ones that claim to prove LHO as the "lone gunman"  since IMO this is the case and it has never been made.  I do not know what role, if any, LHO played but as I stated on one of my first posts I find it very difficult to believe that LHO fired the shots that may best be known as shot 2 or 3.  Maybe he killed Tippet maybe he fired that first shot but I have never read anything that can convinces me that he made the last two shots.  Maybe he was a complete "patsy" I do not know.  The rifle testing by the WC, CBS and HSCA was either irrelevant or provided data that argued against the "lone gunman" theory.  

Any subsequent assassination "conspiracy theory" is a separate issue from "lone gunman" theory.  If someone legitimately discredit a certain "conspiracy theory" that does not make the case for the "lone gunman" theory.  I do admit, I find many of the "conspiracy theories" fascinating but understand that proving a case is a harder issue.  Certainly I strongly disagree that the case is closed and will probably never be.


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## Ryan (Aug 27, 2009)

9/11 inside job said:


> Ryan said:
> 
> 
> > KWO, I just noticed your claim from Posner's book about, "3 men trying to look up through their window on the 5th floor to see the shooter on the 6th floor. The picture was taken a few seconds after the shooting."
> ...



It is remarkable shame that with all the cameras in Dealey Plaza not one has been found that caught the 6th floor or grassy knoll.  Some had indoor or the wrong setting on their film and other panned very near but stopped before hit a main area of interest.  It is also a shame that much of the press covering the event was in a bus in the motorcade.  There is a photo taken in front of the DSBD just before the JFK limo passed and someone that looks very much like LHO is in the picture.  Officially the WC determined the man in the photo was someone named Lovelady or something like that.  Shakespear would no doubt have found the assassination and all the related issues fascinating.


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## LA RAM FAN (Aug 27, 2009)

Ryan said:


> 9/11 inside job said:
> 
> 
> > Ryan said:
> ...



They made sure that most of  the press was towards the back of the motorcade that day having them on the bus towards the end.Theres isnt a shread of evidence that ever proved oswald did it as the thread starter,myself and again sheila have proved throughout this thread.More evidence that proves that Oswald could not have done it besides the fact that some witnesses ran to the grasy knoll cause they said they SAW a riflemen firing behind the picket fence,is there are photos out there you can see  that were taken of the school book depository seconds before the assassination and during the time as well and NONE show pics of a guy in the window with a rifle.Pretty much closes the case that Oswald had anything to do with it as well as again sheilas post that shoot to pieces that he had anything to do with it.


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## LA RAM FAN (Aug 27, 2009)

some people may not be aware of how George Bush Sr is involved in the kennedy assassination up to his ears.there is a DVD out there thats a must see called THE JFK BUSH CONNECTION.You tube of course has deleted it like they always do with important videos. During the bay of pigs debacle,there were two ships that went out to sea.One was called Zapata.whichof course was the name of an oil drilling company of george bushs.the other-Barbara.of course the coincidence theorists like Irrational man and Kerry One Ohio "who I strongly suspect is a sock of Irratioanl Man",will just chuck that up to being just that,a coincidence.


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## Ryan (Aug 28, 2009)

There is a photo of a "CIA" man photographed in Dealey Plaza that very strongly resembles GHWB.  Of course GHWB claimed to not have been involved with the CIA until he became the director years later.  Dallas is his area but I wonder in what capacity he would be in if he was at Dealey Plaza if not working for the CIA?  

An interesting character is a man named George de Mohrenschildt who befriended LHO.  This was a very unlikely friendship since de Mohrenschildt's father was a wealthy Russian and his family members were imprisoned and destroyed by the Bolsheviks.  George de Mohrenschildt immigrated to the US around 1938 but there was suspicion that he was a Nazi agent placing him with extreme right wing factions. 

GdM was an oil man, well educated and with high society graces but yet he became a "friend" to the clumsy LHO who was supposed to be a ultra left "Marxist Leninist" that despised the right wing and even took a shot at General Walker.  So what was the connection of GdM to LHO?  It would stand to reason that GdM and LHO would despise each othere and have no connection as friends.  GdM was also a long time family friend of the high society Bouviers.  Most interesting of all, though, is GdM was a friend of GHWB and even exchanged letters when GdM thought he was being followed and targeted somehow by government operatives (do not take my word for it the letters can be found online.)

Just before the HSCA, GdM was being interviewed by Jay Epstein and he revealed that he was never on the payroll of the CIA but did work as an asset and was paid off with business favors.  This was an important revelation and GdM claimed to be the connection between H. L. Hunt and LHO.  Epstein planned follow up interviews of GdM but during the short interval GdM was found with a gunshot wound in the mouth.  Since GdM had a history of psychological care the case was determined to be a suicide.  

The theory also exists that LHO was a patsy for the CIA but independtly he was infiltrating the radical elements for the FBI and he reported to Hosty.  The CIA supposedly did not know of the FBI interest with LHO.  I believe the WC investgated this theory and found it to be untrue, for whatever that's worth.


----------



## LA RAM FAN (Aug 28, 2009)

yeah I know,when I heard all of that it blew me away.Recently even the mainstream media put out an article that talked about how Gerald Ford when he sat in the warren commission meetings,he was secretly recording the hearings and passing on the information to J Edgar Hoover.This again is coming from the mainstream media!!!! so the People that defend the warren commission are just making themselves look like fools that oswald was the lone assassin.Ford of course was rewarded the office of the presidency for his role in the coverup.I have been waiting for a thread like this to be made for a longggggg time cause until 9/11 came along,thats all I EVER did was read books about the Kennedy assassination.The first 5 years or so after the movie came out,I was obsessed with it and thats all I ever did when i wasnt working or sleeping was read about it.Since a thread has finally been made about it here,as long as the thread starter here doesnt care,I am going to post a lot of things here on BOTH the JFK and RFK assassinations since I have finally found a thread that has stayed around for a long time on the subject.which is amazing cause this topic USUALLY doesnt stay on the first page very long at other sites as well.Just look at how many people have talked about the subject in the last couple of pages,not many.so as long as he doesnt care,Im going to post  a lot here and keep it alive since its a topic that I really have a passion for.


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## LA RAM FAN (Aug 28, 2009)

This was a post that Again Shelia posted ona  kennedy thread one time that I think is very  valuable so I will start it off by posting this.That was a thread I did NOT want to keep alive and didnt back then  because it was a thread made by someone here that ignores evidence and facts and was a thread that endorced the warren commission so thats why I wanted to wait till some thread like this was made before making more posts about the event.thats just ONE example of how someone would have to be really stupid to believe in the warren commission report or case closed.something that Again Sheila DIDNT mention is those people that died were people who testified to the warren commission they saw a man with a rifle behind the picket fence or heard shots come from the grassy knoll.funny how so many people who gave a version to the warren commission that when it didnt fit THEIR version of events,they died in very mysterious circumstances.Posner of course in his book, makes pitiful and pathetic attempts to try and persuade people that thier deaths were not suspecious at all.He is such a joke its pitiful.

I saw a show on the Kennedy assassination years and years ago and they were talking about the number of people who were on the grassy knoll that died mysteriously within a few years after the assassination. Japan, apparently did the math and said the odds of all those people dying in such mysterious circumstances after witnessing the same event were something like 4 in a million. Can't remember exactly, it's been more than 30 years since I saw that particular show. 
__________________


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## LA RAM FAN (Aug 31, 2009)

Thought this was a really good post made quite sometime back on another thread about the JFK assassination so thought I would post this here.Like i said earlier,the thread defended the lone nut theory that oswald kliled kennedy and did it by himself so did not want to keep that thread alive back then like I want to with this one.

To me, the conspiracy isn't who shot JFK but why and if there was anyone behind it.

Even if Oswald was the lone shooter, it doesn't mean someone wasn't controlling him.

I wonder why THIS hasn't been shown throughout the media.

Carlos Marcello Had JFK Killed


Quote:
&#8220;Yeah, I had the son of a bitch killed. I&#8217;m glad I did. I&#8217;m sorry I couldn&#8217;t have done it myself!&#8221;

These were the words of Carlos Marcello, the Mafia godfather of Louisiana and Texas. And he was talking about the assassination of President John F. Kennedy.

Marcello&#8217;s startling admission is in uncensored FBI files at the National Archives, detailed for the first time in a new encyclopedic book &#8220;Legacy of Secrecy&#8221; by Lamar Waldron.
The Mafia easily had the most to gain by killing JFK and essentially getting JFK and RFK out of the way.

And of course, I'm willing to bet 2-1 that the CIA was involved also to at least a certain extent.

And the FBI wasn't gonna do shit. J. Edgar Hoover at the helm hated the Kennedy Brothers. The same POS who sent letters to MLK. Jr telling him to kill himself or he'd reveal the fact that MLK.Jr had a mistress. 
__________________


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## Ryan (Sep 3, 2009)

Just started reading the Posner book, I am on only page 34 and very sleepy but now I am convinced Oswald was the lone gunman.  Just kidding...


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## Ryan (Sep 3, 2009)

Must have been Japanese actuaries working 12 hour shifts.


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## Liability (Sep 3, 2009)

9/11 inside job said:


> Thought this was a really good post made quite sometime back on another thread about the JFK assassination so thought I would post this here.Like i said earlier,the thread defended the lone nut theory that oswald kliled kennedy and did it by himself so did not want to keep that thread alive back then like I want to with this one.
> 
> To me, the conspiracy isn't who shot JFK but why and if there was anyone behind it.
> 
> ...





A damn Mafia scumbag makes a claim.  Nobody with a functioning braincell would blindly accept the word of a mafioso at face value.  Naturally, 9/11 inside jobless laps it right up.

THEN we learn that the imbecile, 9/11 inside jobless, would be "willing" to "bet" that the CIA was involved, too!

Wow.

That settles it then.

Yeppir.  We're SOLD!


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## LA RAM FAN (Sep 3, 2009)

Liability said:


> 9/11 inside job said:
> 
> 
> > Thought this was a really good post made quite sometime back on another thread about the JFK assassination so thought I would post this here.Like i said earlier,the thread defended the lone nut theory that oswald kliled kennedy and did it by himself so did not want to keep that thread alive back then like I want to with this one.
> ...



hey frady cat "afraid of government conspiracys ditzcon clone" I have always said from the very beginning the mob was involved but only at a lower level.we KNOW that the CIA was involved frady cat because as I said before,two CIA men came forward during the house select committe on assassinations investigation and CONFESSED renegade operatives in the agency were behind it all.they confessed it when the investigation was winding down and said -where do you want to go with this? of course the committe never investigated it cause anything that led towards government involvement,they ignored. 

I also already mentioned how Gaston fonzi a congressmen who was on the committe resigned in disgust because just like the warren commission,they ignored leads and facts and especially anything that pointed towards government complicity.I already mentioned frady cat,that he talks about that in his book THE LAST INVESTIGATION but just like that lone nut loon who worships Posers fariy tale bkk CASE CLOSED as the ultimate truth and wont read CASE OPEN which debunks that book,YOU wont read it cause you only see what you WANT to see as we both know.its really tiresome having to repeat things to you.


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## DiveCon (Sep 3, 2009)

9/11 inside job said:


> Liability said:
> 
> 
> > 9/11 inside job said:
> ...


LOL no moron, its YOU that is affraid of the government
you are the one that thinks your own government killed 3000+ of its own people


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## Liability (Sep 4, 2009)

DiveCon said:


> 9/11 inside job said:
> 
> 
> > Liability said:
> ...



The New York Slimes prints classified material on its front page regardless of possible negative impact on our national security.  Why?  Because there is a large contingent of idiots in our land who put themselves over the interests of our collective security.  

*But how do papers and outlets like The Slimes GET the classified information in the first place?*

That's right.  The government is composed of many many individuals.  And they ALL have to abide by commitments to keep state secrets SECRET in order for even national security classified material to REMAIN secret.  And yet, it does not happen.  So we KNOW beyond any petty dispute that large collections of people are not usually all that good at keeping secrets.  

Despite the fact that we all already KNOW as much, there are folks out there {mutants like 9/11 kooks}  who insist that the "gubmint" was engaged in mass murderous behavior directed AT our own innocent citizens (mostly civilians at that).  

It is not that there is no such thing as a conspiracy.  There are conspiracies.  But the thing about conspiracies is that they have this amazing tendency NOT to remain secret.  And individuals -- who have a pitiable track record for not keeping important state secrets under wraps -- are not likely candidates to be involved in THIS kind of conpiracy but now being suddenly ABLE to keep the secret.

Logic compels the conclusion.  The USMB member with the username "9/11 inside job" is an imbecile.


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## LA RAM FAN (Sep 5, 2009)

proof that the frady cat is in denial as always about government conspiracys.


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## DiveCon (Sep 5, 2009)

9/11 inside job said:


> proof that the frady cat is in denial as always about government conspiracys.


yes, you are "frady" cat


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## LA RAM FAN (Sep 5, 2009)

anyhow in keep this thread alive for the people like Again Sheila,Ryan,and the thread starter who are open minded and dont ignore facts,this is something I posted on that same kennedy thread once that needs to be mentioned again.
This was sent to me by a friend/professor of mine from a college where I studied political science at where I learned from him to never trust in the mainstream media that the people who believe in that fairy tale warren commission report that oswald was the lone assassian really seriously need to read.It starts out like this and reads-MEDIA IS A TOOL OF PROPAGANDA-AND THIS DISCOVERY CHANNEL IS ONE OF THE MOST EGREGIOUS OF MANIPULATIONS OF MINDS AND HEARTS.
Most of us have learned we should trust only what we can affirm from the "liberal" media.We've realized that there is a media bias -and taking the first reports as "truth" can mislead.Hearst Corporation is 37.5% owner of the HISTORY CHANNEL.History plainly shows us that the term "yellow journalism" originated with the label of William Randolph Heart's style of journalism.MINISTRY OF PROPAGANDA.THE HISTORY CHANNEL-WHO CONTROLS HISTORY CHANNEL? 

PART TWO-Last night the HISTORY CHANNEL broadcast "The Bible Code.Predicting Armageddon." as one of a series this week which is named by HISTORY CHANNEL as "Armageddin week". "EXPERTS" in the Talmud,present a "detailed computer analysis of the talmud as an intricate document which is so rich with information that the Talmud includes references to 9/11,Twin Towers,Sirhan,Oswald,Moon Landing of Apollo-apparently more specific than even Nostradamus was able to predict.What is most interesting about the intricate cyroptographic investigations into the talmud is HOW CONSISTANTLY THE OFFICIAL MYTHS OF EACH OF THESE TURNING EVENTS IN HISTORY FIT WITH WHAT ARE KNOWN IN "CONSPIRACY CIRCLES" AS ZIONIST NEW WORLD ORDER PLANS.We are being manipulated in this case by a propaganda style and systems of domination. at this point I want to emphasize that it is no more anti-italian to talk of the crimes of the MAFIA,than it is anti-semitic to talk of an Israel criminal syndicate. 

last part-Back to the HISTORY CHANNEL and Talmud experts.In the core of my being,these talmud experts featured in The Bible Code.Predicting armageddon occur to me as the biggest liars regarding the encoding of all the turning events that are claimed to be revealed.The experts dont reveal anything of their methods which could be verified.They conviently affirm the popular myths of 9/11 and,those of us who study 9/11 see clearly the fingerprints of an ISRAELI CRIMINAL SYNDICATE.How beguiling is this brainwashing about the JFK assassination being "OSWALD" and RFK was "SIRHAN". Each of these crimes has benefitted the criminal syndicate of Israel. JFK'S executive directive 11110 is a likely motive for Israeli criminal synidicate to assassinate-among other reasons.9/11 benefited Israeli by bringing the military might of the us to Israel's regional enemies.The HISTORY CHANNEL has promoted its documentaries about 9/11,flight 93 and the kennedy assassination.Each of these are ENFORCED MYTHS-the official stories designed to fool and enslave.The HISTORY CHANNEL should be named something like THE ISRAELI CRIMINAL SYNDICATE PROPAGANDA CHANNEL. I could not have said that last thing any better. 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


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## Liability (Sep 5, 2009)

9/11 inside job said:


> anyhow in keep this thread alive for the people like Again Sheila,Ryan,and the thread starter who are open minded and dont ignore facts,this is something I posted on that same kennedy thread once that needs to be mentioned again.
> This was sent to me by a friend/professor of mine from a college where I studied political science at where I learned from him to never trust in the mainstream media that the people who believe in that fairy tale warren commission report that oswald was the lone assassian really seriously need to read.It starts out like this and reads-MEDIA IS A TOOL OF PROPAGANDA-AND THIS DISCOVERY CHANNEL IS ONE OF THE MOST EGREGIOUS OF MANIPULATIONS OF MINDS AND HEARTS.
> Most of us have learned we should trust only what we can affirm from the "liberal" media.We've realized that there is a media bias -and taking the first reports as "truth" can mislead.Hearst Corporation is 37.5% owner of the HISTORY CHANNEL.History plainly shows us that the term "yellow journalism" originated with the label of William Randolph Heart's style of journalism.MINISTRY OF PROPAGANDA.THE HISTORY CHANNEL-WHO CONTROLS HISTORY CHANNEL?
> 
> ...



It looks like the idiot kook 9/11 troofer ^ is now posting while high.


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## DiveCon (Sep 5, 2009)

Liability said:


> 9/11 inside job said:
> 
> 
> > anyhow in keep this thread alive for the people like Again Sheila,Ryan,and the thread starter who are open minded and dont ignore facts,this is something I posted on that same kennedy thread once that needs to be mentioned again.
> ...


you mean he hasnt always?


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## Liability (Sep 5, 2009)

DiveCon said:


> Liability said:
> 
> 
> > 9/11 inside job said:
> ...



Good point.  Or drunk.  Or both.  Could be a traumatic brain injury.

One old feller once tried to compose an entire book in one (VERY) long sentence.   It, too, was unreadable gibberish.  But some liberal psuedo intelligentsia probably gave it an award or two.


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## Ryan (Sep 6, 2009)

9/11 inside job said:


> proof that the frady cat is in denial as always about government conspiracys.




I'm not sure who "frady cat" is but being in denial of government conspiracies is all too common.  

Is it so inconceivable that rogue elements in the hierarchy of the CIA would conduct unlawful acts?  Was Project MK-ULTRA unlawful?  Did the OSS establish a working relationship with organized crime figures such as "Lucky Luciano" and Meyer Lansky?  Did the CIA not pick up where the OSS left off?  Why would the CIA be considered above reproach?


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## Ryan (Sep 6, 2009)

That Part II sounds more like the Torah not the Talmud.  The Talmud is not universally accepted in Judaism, a very controversial teaching.


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## Ryan (Nov 18, 2009)

Since last posting on this thread I was able to read both Posner's "Case Closed" and Weisberg's "Case Open."  The two books could not have been more differant, Posner's was a well written book full of questionable information, cleverly worded deceptions and important omissions.  Weisberg book was poorly written but honest with some important clarifications.

I know understand why people that know nothing about the JFK assassination read Posner's book and are duped into believing that this was an honest effort.


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## Againsheila (Nov 18, 2009)

rightwinger said:


> Bfgrn said:
> 
> 
> > xsited1 said:
> ...



Only if you don't believe the cop who rushed into the School Book Depository seconds after the shots were fired and found Oswald in the Basement breakroom where he'd been all morning, according to witnesses, waiting for a phone call.

There were 7 people on the stairs, none of whom had seen Lee Harvey pass by and the elevator took over 2 and 1/2 minutes....the policeman saw him only seconds after the shots were fired, not minutes.

What did he do?  Jump 7 stories?  The policeman said he wasn't out of breath or anything to indicate he'd rushed to the breakroom and away from the 6th floor.

The history channel aired a really good miniseries on The Men Who Killed Kennedy.  There's an even better uncut version on the internet...the one aired on the history channel left out several rather significant details.


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## Againsheila (Nov 18, 2009)

My question for those who believe that Harvey was the lone gunman...Do you also believe that Paul Revere made the midnight ride and the battle of Bunker hill actually took place on Bunker hill?


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## LA RAM FAN (Nov 21, 2009)

Againsheila said:


> My question for those who believe that Harvey was the lone gunman...Do you also believe that Paul Revere made the midnight ride and the battle of Bunker hill actually took place on Bunker hill?



Hell those people that still believe that such as Ditzcon and that other lone nut poster that has come on here many timese who is even more of an idiot than LIAR ability,those people will be too embarrased to admit it and will deny it,but I guarantee you,they think pro wrestling is real as well.


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## LA RAM FAN (Nov 21, 2009)

Ryan said:


> Since last posting on this thread I was able to read both Posner's "Case Closed" and Weisberg's "Case Open."  The two books could not have been more differant, Posner's was a well written book full of questionable information, cleverly worded deceptions and important omissions.  Weisberg book was poorly written but honest with some important clarifications.
> 
> I know understand why people that know nothing about the JFK assassination read Posner's book and are duped into believing that this was an honest effort.



Great to hear that unlike that poster Rightwinger,YOU took the time out to read BOTH books.Case Open is full of so many lies its unreal.Like you said,it has very cleverly worded deceptions and some omissions in it.Like one I remember Posner saying is that the reason the epilepic that suffered a siezure right before the motercade came by,why there were no records of his admittence into the hospital is Posner writes that he felt much better when he got there and told the ambulance attendent that and that was why he left and did not go in when he brought him there to the hospital.

well the people that defend the official version like rightwinger are obviously disinfo agents cause he ignored the fact I brought up to him that that ambulance driver said at a november in dallas conference once that Posner lied about that,that he NEVER said that.What the driver DID say was he took him there to the hospital and he just got up and left. who does that disinfo agent expect us to believe to be the liar? Posner or the ambulance driver? sorry Posner is the liar.


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## LA RAM FAN (Nov 21, 2009)

Againsheila said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> > Bfgrn said:
> ...



very true.well said.Like i said,bet the guy believes pro wrestling  is real as well.


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## Bfgrn (Nov 21, 2009)

Tomorrow will be 46 years ago we heard the news... it is difficult to focus on cause when the effect has been so devastating to the history that followed...

When Kennedy was assassinated in 1963, John Kenneth Galbraith wrote that he was relieved that the President had died quickly, fearing the destruction of his wit and intellect as the greater evil.


[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ntv_RA6TzQ0"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ntv_RA6TzQ0[/ame]


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## DiveCon (Nov 21, 2009)

9/11 inside job said:


> Againsheila said:
> 
> 
> > My question for those who believe that Harvey was the lone gunman...Do you also believe that Paul Revere made the midnight ride and the battle of Bunker hill actually took place on Bunker hill?
> ...


fuck off asshole
dont try to say what i do or dont believe when you dont even know what the fuck YOU believe


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## mudwhistle (Nov 21, 2009)

Bump


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## LA RAM FAN (Nov 21, 2009)

Bfgrn said:


> Tomorrow will be 46 years ago we heard the news... it is difficult to focus on cause when the effect has been so devastating to the history that followed...
> 
> When Kennedy was assassinated in 1963, John Kenneth Galbraith wrote that he was relieved that the President had died quickly, fearing the destruction of his wit and intellect as the greater evil.
> 
> ...



the guy that believes pro wrestling is real just now posted after you B.


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## Yukon (Nov 21, 2009)

Oswald shot JFK. I know because I was on the corner of Elm and North Hudson when it happened. Most of you, if not all of you, weren't even born at the time.


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## Modbert (Nov 21, 2009)

What people seem to ignore is that most recently, FBI tapes were released. On these tapes, Carlos Marcello (Godfather of Louisiana and Texas Mafia) bragging about ordering the hit of JFK.

Carlos Marcello Had JFK Killed



> *Yeah, I had the son of a bitch killed. Im glad I did. Im sorry I couldnt have done it myself!*
> 
> These were the words of Carlos Marcello, the Mafia godfather of Louisiana and Texas. And he was talking about the assassination of President John F. Kennedy





> Marcellos startling admission* is in uncensored FBI files at the National Archives,* detailed for the first time in a new encyclopedic book Legacy of Secrecy by Lamar Waldron.
> 
> Waldrons book, released in November 2008, caps twenty years of research that began in 1988 when he didnt know that Marcello had confessed to JFKs murder back in 1985.





> IN 1963, only weeks after JFK was killed, *the FBI questioned 14 Marcello mob associates. Yet the godfathers name doesnt even appear in the Warren Report. This secrecy, it seems, was all because of Cuba.*
> 
> In their massive war against the Mafia, President Kennedy and his brother Attorney General Robert Kennedy were never able to convict any members of the Marcello crime family. And Marcello didnt make his admission of guilt until he was serving a long prison sentence as a result of an FBI sting called BRILAB. *The FBI also carried on a sting against Marcello with the code name CAMTEX.*
> 
> ...





> You may wonder why the FBI and CIA withheld information from the House committee. By the time of JFKs murder, dozens of Marcello associates had infiltrated a CIA operation code-named AMWORLD, a project started by JFK himself.
> 
> This was the CIAs top-secret plan to cooperate with Cubas army commander, Juan Almeida, to stage a coup against Fidel Castro on Dec. 1, 1963. That was 10 days after JFKs trip to Dallas.



The relationship between the Mob and the CIA in the 50's and 60's is well documented. It was a time when Hoover was more concerned about going after other criminals and not the Mob. Plus, there was always the theory that the Mob had blackmail on FBI that would cost him his career.

The Mob had the Motive, the Means, and the backup to do the job. The CIA knew, maybe even had some members help, all in the name of protecting their existence.

It's not a conspiracy when all the facts are smacking you in the face.


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## DiveCon (Nov 21, 2009)

9/11 inside job said:


> Bfgrn said:
> 
> 
> > Tomorrow will be 46 years ago we heard the news... it is difficult to focus on cause when the effect has been so devastating to the history that followed...
> ...


LIAR
once again you fucking MORON, dont even begin to attempt to say what i do or dont believe in
you dumb fucking moron


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## Ryan (Nov 22, 2009)

9/11 inside job said:


> Ryan said:
> 
> 
> > Since last posting on this thread I was able to read both Posner's "Case Closed" and Weisberg's "Case Open."  The two books could not have been more differant, Posner's was a well written book full of questionable information, cleverly worded deceptions and important omissions.  Weisberg book was poorly written but honest with some important clarifications.
> ...



There were many faults in Posners book that should have been noticed and pointed out by the many historians who instead lavished praise.  I could not believe the effort Posner went to discredit Jim Garrison who apparently was the worst person in the JFK assassination including Ruby and Oswald.  So much left out by Posner yet he includes an unbelievable accusation of Garrison trying to solicit a minor at a fitness club who just happened to be close relative of a bitter political rival.  With all that goes on in New Orleans and Posner printed that with nothing else to corroborate Garrison's behavior?

Posner claimed that researchers like Garrison have muddied the waters for JFK researchers but that is exactly what Posner has done.  De Gaulle chased PERMINDEX out of France because those cut throats were the ones trying to kill him (Day of the Jackal).

I have Weisberg's most recent (?) book "Never Again" and will read soon.   He made a great point that Posner is just a CIA (Corporate Interests of America) lackey.


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## Yukon (Nov 22, 2009)

DiveCon said:


> "
> 
> ...once again you fucking MORON, dont even begin to attempt to say what i do or dont believe in..."




You believe whatever your conservative masters tell you. People like you are incapable of independant, rational thought. Your mind is too small to absorb the harsh realities of society so you hide in your Conservative induced environment of fear, loathing, and hatred. Yes you fear anything and anyone who is different, you loath those who dare challenge conventional wisdom, and you hate anyone who dares to speak the truth to you. 
You skull is on the verge of exploding because you are now ruled by a Negro. I pity you my child, for you are sad.


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## DiveCon (Nov 22, 2009)

Yukon said:


> DiveCon said:
> 
> 
> > "
> ...


another fucking moron trying to tell me what i do or dont believe

i have no master and i'm ruled by NO ONE

fuck off asshole


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## Yukon (Nov 22, 2009)

DiveCon,

I'm simply trying to provide you with the guidance you so obviously missed out on as a child. Some of the comments you make lead me to believe that you are mentally challenged (in simpler words border-line retarded). Are you?


----------



## DiveCon (Nov 22, 2009)

Yukon said:


> DiveCon,
> 
> I'm simply trying to provide you with the guidance you so obviously missed out on as a child. Some of the comments you make lead me to believe that you are mentally challenged (in simpler words border-line retarded). Are you?


no, you're just projecting

asshole


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## LA RAM FAN (Nov 23, 2009)

Yukon said:


> Oswald shot JFK. I know because I was on the corner of Elm and North Hudson when it happened. Most of you, if not all of you, weren't even born at the time.



for a minute there you had me going there thinking were really serious.lol.glad you made those next few posts,it forced me to edit this.


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## LA RAM FAN (Nov 23, 2009)

Yukon said:


> DiveCon said:
> 
> 
> > "
> ...



well said Yukon. thats the best post EVER written about Ditzcon.it describes him PERFECTLY and down to the tee.I could never have said it any better myself.


----------



## DiveCon (Nov 23, 2009)

9/11 inside job said:


> Yukon said:
> 
> 
> > DiveCon said:
> ...


a moron like you cant do better than a fucktard like yukon
LOL


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## LA RAM FAN (Nov 24, 2009)

so you coming on her to talk to yourself some more Ditzcon? your breath is wasted on me since i never read your moronic ramblings.


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## DiveCon (Nov 24, 2009)

9/11 inside job said:


> so you coming on her to talk to yourself some more Ditzcon? your breath is wasted on me since i never read your moronic ramblings.


whatever you say 911 rim job
you should hook up with autozona


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## Ryan (Nov 24, 2009)

My mistake, I posted earlier that de Gaulle had PERMINDEX booted out of France but it was Switzerland.  PERMINDEX moved to South Africa after Switzerland and later Canada et cetera.  De Gaulle made many enimies with his policies on Algeria and Viet Nam.  He also influenced JFK on Viet Nam.


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## LA RAM FAN (Nov 24, 2009)

thats a good idea.I'll just ignore that troll ditzcon and just talk about information like YOU do.


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## LA RAM FAN (Nov 25, 2009)

I posted this over on the other JFK thread so I will post it here as well.

 after the disasterous bay of pigs invasion,JFK threatend to split the CIA into a thousand pieces and scatter it into the four winds were his words after that.He was going to get rid of the CIA cause he saw how they were an evil and out of control organization they really were.the CIA had lied to him and tried to trick him into ordering an all out invasion.after that,he got wise and stopped listening to the advise of the military and leaned on his aides and Bobby closely. The CIA  had FAR more to gain than anybody in his elimination..


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## DiveCon (Nov 25, 2009)

9/11 inside job said:


> I posted this over on the other JFK thread so I will post it here as well.
> 
> after the disasterous bay of pigs invasion,JFK threatend to split the CIA into a thousand pieces and scatter it into the four winds were his words after that.He was going to get rid of the CIA cause he saw how they were an evil and out of control organization they really were.the CIA had lied to him and tried to trick him into ordering an all out invasion.after that,he got wise and stopped listening to the advise of the military and leaned on his aides and Bobby closely. The CIA  had FAR more to gain than anybody in his elimination..


yes, and a group that had no fear of snuffing a sitting POTUS would allow you to expose what they wouldnt allow JFK to do

LOL
yeah, sure


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## JW Frogen (Nov 25, 2009)

Bfgrn said:


> JFK and the Unspeakable
> 
> 
> Oliver Stone
> ...



That made me laugh out loud.

Fairly elected? In 1960 the Kennedy&#8217;s were spreading bribe money around West Virginia like AIDS in a 70s San Francisco bath house and LBJ was doing his usual Lazarus miracle by raising the dead to vote Democrat in Texas.

As to what did his death do? Well it helped pass Civil Rights legislation as almost everything Kennedy had presented to Congress was stalled. It took the master legislative skills of LBJ to pass that. 

Kennedy could not pass anything even if he were on a diet of ExLax Enchiladas.


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## Ryan (Nov 28, 2009)

JW Frogen said:


> Bfgrn said:
> 
> 
> > JFK and the Unspeakable
> ...



It was a bit before my time but your point seems accurate.  JFK could not get his programs through Congress and LBJ did.  Also, LBJ reversed JFK's more cautious approach to military involvement in Viet Nam.  If there was a connection, as I believe, between the two major shifts in US policy then it was conducted for the most part behind the scenes.  

One thing is for sure, LBJ was a broken man after his first term as an elected President.  It remains unknown to history what LBJ's most revealing political thoughts might have been, but I wonder if he ever reflected on the military policies of JFK.  JFK was not a dove but LBJ was a hawk and his "master legislative skills" did not save him or the Nation from a military disaster.


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## Ryan (Nov 28, 2009)

9/11 inside job said:


> I posted this over on the other JFK thread so I will post it here as well.
> 
> after the disasterous bay of pigs invasion,JFK threatend to split the CIA into a thousand pieces and scatter it into the four winds were his words after that.He was going to get rid of the CIA cause he saw how they were an evil and out of control organization they really were.the CIA had lied to him and tried to trick him into ordering an all out invasion.after that,he got wise and stopped listening to the advise of the military and leaned on his aides and Bobby closely. The CIA  had FAR more to gain than anybody in his elimination..



I agree, the CIA was at logger heads with JFK and one side had to lose.  My references to PERMINDEX is as a tentacle of the same rogue element within the CIA.  A "permanent industrial exhibition" was a front, one used often by such an intelligence organization,  which old OSS men like Clay Shaw were main players and this type of research is why Posner criticized Garrison.  Posner is a slick, dumbed down, CIA penman.


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## Yukon (Nov 28, 2009)

Conservative morons like those who post on this site have no understanding of President Kennedy. You understand nothing, you believe in vdisproved Reagan economic theories (vodoo economics), you believe in Iraqi WMD's, you believe Elvis lives, that the CIA shot Kennedy, that Bush, Junior  won fairly. In summary you bleieve whatever Rush, Glenn, and Sean tell you for you are fools.


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## LA RAM FAN (Nov 28, 2009)

Yukon said:


> Conservative morons like those who post on this site have no understanding of President Kennedy. You understand nothing, you believe in vdisproved Reagan economic theories (vodoo economics), you believe in Iraqi WMD's, you believe Elvis lives, that the CIA shot Kennedy, that Bush, Junior  won fairly. In summary you bleieve whatever Rush, Glenn, and Sean tell you for you are fools.



Yukon that was a great post until the crap you posted that the CIA did not kill Kennedy.You need to read through my posts here cause I have proved they DID and they had more to gain by it than anybody.otherwise EVERYTHING else you said was accurate.It describes people like Ditzcon,Rightwinger and Liar ability perfectly.


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## LA RAM FAN (Nov 28, 2009)

Ryan said:


> 9/11 inside job said:
> 
> 
> > I posted this over on the other JFK thread so I will post it here as well.
> ...



Have you ever known that when we bring up these facts like this ,that instead of trying to refute it,they type stuff like the posts yukon did when confronted with evidence like this they cant refute?


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## DiveCon (Nov 28, 2009)

9/11 inside job said:


> Yukon said:
> 
> 
> > Conservative morons like those who post on this site have no understanding of President Kennedy. You understand nothing, you believe in vdisproved Reagan economic theories (vodoo economics), you believe in Iraqi WMD's, you believe Elvis lives, that the CIA shot Kennedy, that Bush, Junior  won fairly. In summary you bleieve whatever Rush, Glenn, and Sean tell you for you are fools.
> ...


figures a fucking idiot like you would agree with yukon
birds of a feather
both totally fucking INSANE


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## LA RAM FAN (Nov 28, 2009)

Ryan said:


> JW Frogen said:
> 
> 
> > Bfgrn said:
> ...



we know that its a fact that after LBJ became president,that a couple days later he signed document # 273 that REVERSED kennedys policy on vietnam and called for an esculation on it.A couple months before his assassination,kennedy had signed document # 263 which called for a complete withdrawel from vietnam by 1965.It was no secret,everybody knew it.There were headlines in the military papers on the front pages back then reading-kennedy to withdraw from vietnam by 1965. Fletcher Prouty who's character Donald Sutherland played in the movie,wrote a book about it called THE SECRET TEAM and I have tape of an interview of his as well where he talks all about that,very informative interview.

For years,it was just speculated among researchers,that Kennedy wanted to withdraw from vietnam but we had no proof of it other than he did call for a 1000 troop withdrawel from vietnam by the end of 1963.for years we could only speculate that he was gojng to withdraw but NOW we know for sure that he was going to completely withdraw from vietnam by 1965 cause thanks to the ARRB invesitagion in the 90's,they came across and discovered documents that he DID sign memorandum #263 which again called for a complete withdrawel from vietnam by 1965.so we know for sure now that he definetely was going to withdraw.no question whatsoever about it now. 

See Kennedy could not be bought off to play their game.He was rich,he didnt need the money.LBJ on the other hand,COULD be bought off cause he wasnt rich.So since the CIA/military industrial complex did him a favor getting him elected by killing kennedy,LBJ was more than happy to return the favor and give them their war they wanted.They scratched his back,he scratched their back.LBJ and Nixon both involved in it,hated the kennedys,everyone knew that back then.and do did J  Edgar Hoover.Hoover however was buddys with both LBJ and Nixon so he was more than delighted to cover up the evidence in the case. that one poster was correct,JFK wasnt fairly elected,Joe Kennedy sr used his mob connections to get him elected which of course pissed of Nixon and why he was willing to be participate in the planning of his assassination as well.


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## rightwinger (Nov 28, 2009)

> So since the CIA/military industrial complex did him a favor getting him elected by killing kennedy,LBJ was more than happy to return the favor and give them their war they wanted


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## LA RAM FAN (Nov 28, 2009)

ah was wondering when disinformation agent troll rightwinger was going to come back and join fellow agent troll Ditzcon.


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## rightwinger (Nov 28, 2009)

9/11 inside job said:


> ah was wondering when disinformation agent troll rightwinger was going to come back and join fellow agent troll Ditzcon.



Its a conspiracy damn it....a conspiracy


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## DiveCon (Nov 28, 2009)

rightwinger said:


> 9/11 inside job said:
> 
> 
> > ah was wondering when disinformation agent troll rightwinger was going to come back and join fellow agent troll Ditzcon.
> ...


hey, dont give away agent secrets
LOL


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## Ryan (Nov 28, 2009)

9/11 inside job said:


> Ryan said:
> 
> 
> > 9/11 inside job said:
> ...



Yeah, not sure who he was talking too.  Hey, I was wondering based on another post on a different thread whether you have read any Micheal Collins Piper on the JFK assassination?


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## JW Frogen (Nov 28, 2009)

Factoid: JFKs last thoughts were eeer uumm look at the boobs on that blonde broad on the grassy knoll, they blow me away!!!!


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## LA RAM FAN (Nov 30, 2009)

Ryan said:


> 9/11 inside job said:
> 
> 
> > Ryan said:
> ...



No but its on my MUST READ list because i know that there is definetely a lot of truth to that book.


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## Yukon (Nov 30, 2009)

I told you I was there. I was. That's a fact.


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## LA RAM FAN (Dec 11, 2009)

Ryan said:


> 9/11 inside job said:
> 
> 
> > Ryan said:
> ...



since you asked this,thought I would post some really good information on it taken from another site that I talk a lot about the JFK assassination at.here it is below in the next couple of posts.


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## LA RAM FAN (Dec 11, 2009)

The Missing Link In The JFK Assassination Conspiracy 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Rense.com


More Evidence Mossad Killed 
JFK Over Israeli Nukes
The Missing Link In The JFK Assassination Conspiracy
From John
9-28-3

(Note - The second item below is a letter from JFK to Israeli Prime Minister Eshkol which 
makes it crystal clear JFK did NOT want the Jewish state to develop nuclear weapons and 
that he was demanding regular US inspections of the Dimona Nuclear facility...which, as we 
now know, was/is used to develop Israel's enormous inventory of atomic and thermonuclear 
weapons. The US Air Force white paper regarding past and ongoing Israeli thermonuclear 
blackmail of the US is a stunning look at how Zionism has exerted such staggering domination 
over the US for decades. -ed) 


After reading: "New JFK Assassination Theory" from WND, it is obvious that it is just more dis-information diverting attention away from the more than likely perpetrators, the Mossad. 
It's only fair to remind or inform your readers of the theory posed by Michael Collins 
Piper in 'Final Judgment'. His theory makes more sense than anything. 


Final Judgement Reviewed by Mark Braver 

There seems to be a lot of misperception of what Final Judgment does and does not say about the JFK assassination. The book does not say that "the Jews killed JFK." That's horse manure. 

What the book does say is that: When New Orleans District Attorney Jim Garrison charged businessman Clay Shaw with participation in the JFK assassination conspiracy Garrison stumbled upon the Israeli Mossad connection to the murder of President Kennedy. Shaw served on the board of a shadowy corporation known as Permindex. A primary shareholder in Permindex was the Banque De Credit International of Geneva, founded by Tibor Rosenbaum, an arms procurer and financier for the Mossad. 

What's more, the Mossad-sponsored Swiss bank was the chief "money laundry" for Meyer Lansky, the head of the international crime syndicate and an Israeli loyalist whose operations meshed closely on many fronts with the American CIA. 

The chairman of Permindex was Louis M. Bloomfield of Montreal, a key figure in the Israeli lobby and an operative of the Bronfman family of Canada, long-time Lansky associates and among Israel's primary international patrons. 

In the pages of "Final Judgment" the Israeli connection to the JFK assassination is explored in frightening--and fully documented--detail. For example, did you know: 

* That JFK was engaged in a bitter secret conflict with Israel over U.S. East policy and that Israel's prime minister resigned in disgust, saying JFK's stance threatened Israel's very survival? 

* That JFK's successor, Lyndon Johnson, immediately reversed America's policy toward Israel? 

* That the top Mafia figures often alleged to be behind the JFK assassination were only front men for Meyer Lansky? 

* That the CIA's liaison to the Mossad, James Angleton, was a prime mover behind the cover-up of the JFK assassination? 

Why didn't Oliver Stone, in his famous movie "JFK" not mention any of this? It turns out the chief financial backer of Stone's film was longtime Mossad figure, Arnon Milchan, Israel's biggest arms dealer. 

The very fact that the Israeli lobby has gone through such great lengths to try to smear Michael Collins Piper and to try to discredit Final Judgment gives the book great credibility. If the book was really so silly or so unconvincing, it doesn't seem likely that groups such as the Anti-Defamation League would go out of their way to try to suppress the book as they have. 

The fact is that Piper demonstrates that Israel did indeed have a very strong motive to want to get JFK out of the way and that numerous people who have been linked in other writings to the JFK conspiracy were (as Piper documents) also in the sphere of influence of Israel's Mossad. Not only Clay Shaw in New Orleans, but also James Angleton at the CIA, who was Israel's strongest advocate at the CIA and also the CIA's liaison to the Mossad. The Israeli connection is indeed "the missing link in the JFK assassination conspiracy." 

The "Reader from Chicago" who wrote the review of Final Judgment posted here is really off the beam and I suspect he (or she) is deliberately distorting what Piper's book does say in order to try to discourage people from reading it. 

The fact is that Piper's book documents (quite clearly, in my estimation) not only the means, opportunity and the motive for Israeli Mossad involvement in the assassination (working in conjunction with the CIA), but it is also quite fascinating and very interesting read. "Boring" is the last word I'd use to describe the book, and it is certainly not "poorly written." 

What's more, the book is not--I repeat--not "anti-Semitic" and the book has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with the subject of the Holocaust. In fact, anybody familiar with any of the standard writings on the JFK assassination will recognize the names of some of the key players in the scenario Piper documents: Clay Shaw, David Ferrie, Guy Banister and James J. Angleton of the CIA--and none of them were Jewish. So where this reviewer gets off saying that Piper finds "a Jew under every rock" is beyond me. I have read literally hundreds of books and magazine articles and other material on the JFK assassination and not in a single one of them--with the exception of Final Judgment--did I ever learn that President John F. Kennedy was trying to stop Israel from building the nuclear bomb and that this literally touched off a "secret war" behind the scenes between JFK and Israel's prime minister, David Ben-Gurion, who resigned (among other reasons) in disgust over JFK's policies with Israel. In fact, Israeli historian Avner Cohen in his book, Israel and the Bomb, documents this quite thoroughly. 

And in Final Judgment Piper also outlines some interesting Israeli connections by people who have been linked to the JFK assassination and cover-up, including Clay Shaw of New Orleans. Even Israeli journalist Barry Chamish has written in an Internet review of Final Judgment that he finds Piper's Israeli connection (via Shaw and Permindex) quite convincing. 

There was a controversy in the Chicago area following an attempt by the Anti-Defamation League (an Israeli lobby organization) and people associated with the ADL to prevent Final Judgment from being placed in the Schaumburg Township District Library. Chances are the Reader from Chicago is probably an ADL representative! --This text refers to the Unknown Binding edition. 

__________ 


JFK's Concern Over Israel's Nuclear Bomb Program 

continuation 
__________________
Let"s Save America From Zionism. 


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  #2 (permalink)       09-24-2009, 03:08 PM  
 canuck27  
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Posts: 19,961  

 continuation 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

JFK's Letter To Israeli PM Eshkol July 5, 1963 

Dear Mr. Prime Minister (Eshkol), 

It gives me great personal pleasure to extend congratulations as you assume your responsibilities as Prime Minister of Israel. You have our friendship and best wishes in your new tasks. It is on one of these that I am writing you at this time. 

You are aware, I am sure, of the exchange which I had with Prime Minister Ben-Gurion concerning American visits (ie: inspections -ed) to Israel's nuclear facility at Dimona. Most recently, the Prime Minister wrote to me on May 27. His words reflected a most intense personal consideration of a problem that I know is not easy for your Government, as it is not for mine. We welcomed the former Prime Minister's strong reaffirmation that Dimona will be devoted exclusively to peaceful purposes and the reaffirmation also of Israel's willingness to permit periodic visits (ie: inspections -ed) to Dimona. 

I regret having to add to your burdens so soon after your assumption of office, but I feel the crucial importance of this problem necessitates my taking up with you at this early date certain further considerations, arising out of Mr. Ben-Gurion's May 27 letter, as to the nature and scheduling of such visits. 

I am sure you will agree that these visits should be as nearly as possible in accord with international standards, thereby resolving all doubts as to the peaceful intent of the Dimona project. As I wrote Mr. Ben-Gurion, this Government's commitment to and support of Israel could be seriously jeopardized if it should be thought that we were unable to obtain reliable information on a subject as vital to the peace as the question of Israel's effort in the nuclear field. 

Therefore, I asked our scientists to review the alternative schedules of visits we and you had proposed. If Israel's purposes are to be clear beyond reasonable doubt, I believe that the schedule which would best serve our common purposes would be a visit early this summer, another visit in June 1964, and thereafter at intervals of six months. I am sure that such a schedule should not cause you any more difficulty than that which Mr. Ben-Gurion proposed in his May 27 letter. It would be essential, and I understand that Mr. Ben-Gurion's letter was in accord with this, that our scientist have access to all areas of the Dimona site and to any related part of the complex, such as fuel fabrication facilities or plutonium separation plant, and that sufficient time to be allotted for a thorough examination. 

Knowing that you fully appreciate the truly vital significance of this matter to the future well-being of Israel, to the United States, and internationally, I am sure our carefully considered request will have your most sympathetic attention. 

Sincerely, 
John F. Kennedy 

Home Page 


Here is the US Air Force paper on Israel's nuclear blackmail of the United States and its 
influence on US foreign policy. One can draw additional conclusions about how such 
blackmail might have factored into the trillion plus US dollars that have benefited Israel 
since JFK's murder. 


Israel's 'Use' Of Nuclear Weapons Against Us

Bush Must Say 'No' To Israeli Nuclear Blackmail - LaRouche 


Comment 
From George LoBuono 
10-3-3 

Mossad motives against JFK are probably true, but don't forget who more probably did the actual shooting and the cover-up. CIA and military-industrial fingerprints are all over the hit. Meyer Lansky may have had Permindex-Mossad ties, i.e. he sought refuge in Israel toward the end of his life, but Lansky had much more going here in the USA. For example, the United Fruit company figures in the lives of more assassination suspects than did Permindex. Col. Fletcher Prouty's naming of Gen. Ed Lansdale as the man in Dealey Plaza photos (walking past the famous hobo suspects) also points to United Fruit. Lansdale's protege in the CIA was Allen Dulles, who worked for United Fruit for years. United Fruit was owned by the Du Pont family. Incidentally, the Bronfman family which this article ties to Permindex, held a major share of Du Pont corp. stock up until a few years ago. In short, there may have been Mossad motives against JFK, but the larger hand and the triggermen appear to have been US citizens.






Disclaimer

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MainPage
Jeff Rense Program 
__________________
Let"s Save America From Zionism.


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## DiveCon (Dec 11, 2009)

OMG!!!!!!!!!!!!  it was the JOOOOOOOOOS


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## Yukon (Dec 11, 2009)

9/11 inside job said:


> Have you ever known that when we bring up these facts like this ,that instead of trying to refute it,they type stuff like the posts yukon did when confronted with evidence like this they cant refute?



I'm sure you would agree, being such a fact based person, that Bush Junior os a liar? There were NO WMD's and Saddam had nothing to do with 9/11.


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## LA RAM FAN (Dec 11, 2009)

Yukon said:


> 9/11 inside job said:
> 
> 
> > Have you ever known that when we bring up these facts like this ,that instead of trying to refute it,they type stuff like the posts yukon did when confronted with evidence like this they cant refute?
> ...



yes of course.all that it true,thats why I was puzzled when you made this post below because it was all a great post EXCEPT for the part of where you said the part of the CIA in kennedy because as I have proved in this thread with the help of others of course,,the CIA was behind his assassination.if you had just said in this post below you believe that oswald killed kennedy instead of the CIA,I would say that was a great intelligent post that describes people like Ditzcon and Rightwinger perfectly.It was all great till that part.

Conservative morons like those who post on this site have no understanding of President Kennedy. You understand nothing, you believe in vdisproved Reagan economic theories (vodoo economics), you believe in Iraqi WMD's, you believe Elvis lives, that the CIA shot Kennedy, that Bush, Junior won fairly. In summary you bleieve whatever Rush, Glenn, and Sean tell you for you are fools. 
__________________
"Not all Republicans are racist, but most racists are Republican" - Fr Yukon, Feb 1965


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## LA RAM FAN (Dec 11, 2009)

9/11 inside job said:


> The Missing Link In The JFK Assassination Conspiracy
> 
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> ...



the thing i find really interesting about that article is that again Lyndon Johnson reversed a policy of kennedys.Just like he reversed kennedys policy to completely withdraw from vietnam by 1965 and signed a document that esculated the war instead,he reversed Kennedys policy towards Isreal which beniffited the Isreali mossad.


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## hylandrdet (Jan 10, 2010)

Alright guys!

I gonna help you clean this up a little.

There were FOUR SHOTS FIRED!


Shot 1- Missed the entire car. Look at the Zapruder film. The first shot came as Kennedy had disappeared behind the sign. You can tell this because he began to stop waving to check to see what going on. 


Shot 2- The second shot hit Kennedy in the back and traveled exactly along the path as suggested by the most recent study. That I no longer doubt; there was no magic bullet. This bullet is known as C.E. 399. You'll find out why it's important for you to remember this later. 


The last two shots- Now pay attention, because even I didn't picked up on this until a few years ago. 

Keep an eye on Jackie's head and JFK's ear at the point of impact. Jackie was looking slightly downward when the third shot hit JFK's head. A freeze frame photo of the "red mist", coming from JFK's head, clearly shows that the third shot hit JFK from BEHIND. The following is my description of the remaining frames.

- Jackie begans to look up after feeling the spray of blood and brain tissue hitting her face. Notice that JFK's ear was still in it's proper position.

- JFK's head begans to snap back; at this point, Jackie is starting to make full eye contact with JFK.

- In a bizarre action, the back of JFK's head begans to open up and his ear suddenly drops downward. What's left of his head moves back and to the left. At this point, Jackie sees chunks of JFK's brain tissue lying on the trunk of the limo and began to leave her seat to retrieve the brain matter. 

-Jackie Kennedy kept the chunks of brain matter in her hands until the limo had reached Parkland Hospital where she handed it over to the physicians, believing that it could help them save her husband. 

Question...

How could huge chunks of brain matter (about the size of your thumbnail) find its way on the trunk of the car, when the "red mist" clearly indicates that the brain tissue had traveled forward?

Answer: The fourth shot, coming from the grassy knoll,  followed almost immediately after the third shot, fired by Oswald. It flew right into the hole produced by the third shot and blew the back of JFK's skull open. 

There was never any certified proof suggesting that the bullet(s) that'd hit JFK's head was ever recovered, nor should there be. For the bullet(s) that hit JFK's head had fragmented. 

A bullet fragment, known as C.E. 567, was tested by the National Archives and Records Administration. This bullet fragment, found near the driver side front seat, was tested for fibrous material related to JFK and Connally's clothing and DNA. The fiber and DNA extracted from the fragment contained human DNA, but failed short of matching either JFK or Connally's clothing or blood. This came as the result DNA deterioation. 

According to the trajectory of the third and fourth shots, there was no way both bullets could have landed in the car, unless the bullets had broken up and it's fragments fell onto or into the car. That's exactly what had happened.  

Now this leads to a very interesting question...

How is it that CE 567, now being regarded as the possible "first head shot" bullet, had broken up after passing through two layers of thin skull bone, yet CE 399, "the magic bullet" had passed through numerous sets of dense bone, yet came out in near mint condition?

Is it quite possible that CE 567 and CE 399 are two different bullets?

So now you know why the Warren Commission report and Oliver Stone's take on the assassination seems so outrageous. They're both trying to form their cases around the one solid bullet and numerous bullet fragments of unofficial origin. You would sound crazy too if you tried to rationalize how three bullets could had done the work of four.

All I know is this. I believe that Lee Harvey Oswald was the primary shooter, but he didn't act alone; he had help. If there is one person that'd convince me of this it was Abraham Zapruder. It's not his film alone that'd convince me, it's his testimony. He testified that he'd heard shots coming from "all around" him. Clearly the gunshot blast was very close to him  

When you have the chance, travel to Dallas, go to Dealey Plaza and stand on the exact spot where Zapruder shot the film. Now take a look to the right; you'll find that Zapruder was 12 feet away and right beside the back of the grassy knoll. If there was a shooter there, he could not had missed hearing that shot.

Food for thought.


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