# Let's celebrate the Right to Keep and Bear arms...something the rest of the world has surrendered....



## 2aguy (Dec 18, 2021)

Saw this.....and I thought...it's about time we celebrate our ability to exercise our Right to be free from criminal attack, and government tyranny and murder.....

The anti-gunners here on U.S.messageboard.....believe these people should not be able to own or carry guns....

Soooooo.....


*I love this country and its Freedom......*


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## Hugo Furst (Dec 18, 2021)

wish I had a backyard like that


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## rightwinger (Dec 18, 2021)

We get to celebrate 32,000 gun deaths a year

Something no other country would tolerate


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## White 6 (Dec 18, 2021)

WillHaftawaite said:


> wish I had a backyard like that


Then chuck everything you got and move.


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## 2aguy (Dec 18, 2021)

rightwinger said:


> We get to celebrate 32,000 gun deaths a year
> 
> Something no other country would tolerate




Let me correct you....

The democrats caused 95% of the 10,258 gun murders in the U.S. in 2019.....while normal people used their legal guns 1.2 million times a year to stop rapes, robberies, murders, stabbings and beatings......

Suicide using guns is not the fault of the normal gun owners...it is a mental health issue not helped by silly gun control laws that do nothing to stop crime or suicide.


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## 2aguy (Dec 18, 2021)

White 6 said:


> Then chuck everything you got and move.




Why "Chuck everything?"   Save up, buy some rural land and make a shooting course......


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## 1srelluc (Dec 18, 2021)

I did my part this week. 

M1917 reworked to .45 Colt. and a S&W Model 49.


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## 2aguy (Dec 18, 2021)

Celebrating old school....


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## 1srelluc (Dec 18, 2021)

2aguy said:


> Why "Chuck everything?"   Save up, buy some rural land and make a shooting course......


That's what I did, it's right along the Shenandoah River so I have my range along with good hunting and fishing and it's only six miles from my home.





The pavilion as been revamped since '06 but it's perfect for my needs.


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## 1srelluc (Dec 18, 2021)

1srelluc said:


> That's what I did, it's right along the Shenandoah River so I have my range along with good hunting and fishing and it's only six miles from my home.
> 
> View attachment 577108
> 
> The pavilion as been revamped since '06 but it's perfect for my needs. I just happened to be in the right place at the right time, it was not even on the market, I just heard a guy at the morning eatery talking about selling it, approached him in the parking lot and owned it the next week.


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## White 6 (Dec 18, 2021)

2aguy said:


> Why "Chuck everything?"   Save up, buy some rural land and make a shooting course......


Lots of people will not step outside the path of convenience of the big cities and built-up areas, where every tom, dick and harry setting up their own private range would endanger people for miles.


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## rightwinger (Dec 18, 2021)

2aguy said:


> The democrats caused 95% of the 10,258 gun murders in the U.S. in 2019.....while normal people used their legal guns 1.2 million times a year to stop rapes, robberies, murders, stabbings and beatings......


More NRA fantasies


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## 2aguy (Dec 18, 2021)

rightwinger said:


> More NRA fantasies




None of that comes from the NRA.....from the CDC and the FBI....but thanks for trying to lie about it...


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## 2aguy (Dec 18, 2021)

Celebrating the 2nd Amendment....having the choice to decide which gun you will own and carry......this woman stands a better chance of surviving a violent criminal attack than any woman in Europe, Australia or most places around the world....


*I love this country...*


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## rightwinger (Dec 18, 2021)

2aguy said:


> None of that comes from the NRA.....from the CDC and the FBI....but thanks for trying to lie about it...



LOL

I notice you didn’t provide a link to your fantasies


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## 2aguy (Dec 18, 2021)

rightwinger said:


> LOL
> 
> I notice you didn’t provide a link to your fantasies




When I provide the links, you can't then cry baby about my posting those links..........

Here we go...

Gun self defense studies.....all of them...

A quick guide to the studies and the numbers.....the full lay out of what was studied by each study is in the links....

The name of the group doing the study, the year of the study, the number of defensive gun uses and if police and military defensive gun uses are included.....notice the bill clinton and obama defensive gun use research is highlighted.....

GunCite-Gun Control-How Often Are Guns Used in Self-Defense 

GunCite Frequency of Defensive Gun Use in Previous Surveys

Field...1976....3,052,717 ( no cops, no military)

DMIa 1978...2,141,512 ( no cops, no military)

L.A. TIMES...1994...3,609,68 ( no cops, no military)

Kleck......1994...2.5 million ( no cops, no military)

2021 national firearm survey, Prof. William English, PhD. designed by Deborah Azrael of Harvard T. Chan School of public policy, and  Mathew Miller, Northeastern university.......1.67 million defensive uses annually.

*CDC...1996-1998... 1.1 million averaged over those years.( no cops, no military)*

Obama's CDC....2013....500,000--3million

--------------------


Bordua...1977...1,414,544

DMIb...1978...1,098,409 ( no cops, no military)

Hart...1981...1.797,461 ( no cops, no military)

Mauser...1990...1,487,342 ( no cops,no military)

Gallup...1993...1,621,377 ( no cops, no military)

DEPT. OF JUSTICE...1994...1.5 million ( the bill clinton study)

Journal of Quantitative Criminology--- 989,883 times per year."

(Based on survey data from a 2000 study published in the _Journal of Quantitative Criminology_,[17] U.S. civilians use guns to defend themselves and others from crime at least 989,883 times per year.[18])

Paper: "Measuring Civilian Defensive Firearm Use: A Methodological Experiment." By David McDowall and others. _Journal of Quantitative Criminology_, March 2000. Measuring Civilian Defensive Firearm Use: A Methodological Experiment - Springer


-------------------------------------------

Ohio...1982...771,043

Gallup...1991...777,152

Tarrance... 1994... 764,036 (no cops, no military)

Lawerence Southwich Jr. 400,000 fewer violent crimes and at least 800,000 violent crimes deterred..

*2021 national firearms survey..

The survey was designed by Deborah Azrael of the Harvard T.H. Chan School of Public Health, and Matthew Miller of Northeastern University,*
*----
The survey further finds that approximately a third of gun owners (31.1%) have used a firearm to defend themselves or their property, often on more than one occasion, and it estimates that guns are used defensively by firearms owners in approximately 1.67 million incidents per year. Handguns are the most common firearm employed for self-defense (used in 65.9% of defensive incidents), and in most defensive incidents (81.9%) no shot was fired. Approximately a quarter (25.2%) of defensive incidents occurred within the gun owner's home, and approximately half (53.9%) occurred outside their home, but on their property. About one out of ten (9.1%) defensive gun uses occurred in public, and about one out of twenty (4.8%) occurred at work.*
*https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3887145*


*Criminals......and murder...*

Most murder victims in big cities have criminal record

A review of murder statistics across America shows that in many large cities, up to 90 percent of the _victims_ have criminal records.
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The report concludes that “of the 2011 homicide victims, 77 percent (66) had a least one prior arrest and of the known 2011 homicide suspects 90 percent (74) had at least one prior arrest.”
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In early 2012, after pressure put on the police by murder victims’ families in New Orleans, the police department stopped revealing whether or not the murder victim had a prior record.
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Though data is no longer published in Baltimore, USA Today reported in 2007 that 91 percent of the then-205 murder victims in the city between Jan. 1 and Aug. 31, 2007, had criminal records.
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A WND review of the Philadelphia Police Department Murder and Shooting Analysis for 2011 shows a similar pattern to that of other large cities in America – a majority of the murder victims have prior records.

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In Philadelphia in 2011, of 324 murders, 81 percent (263) of the victims had at least one prior arrest; 62 percent (164) had been arrested for a violent crime prior to their murder.
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In Newark, N.J., long considered one of America’s most dangerous cities, 85 percent of the 165 murder victims between 2009 and 2010 had serious arrest histories.
Anthony Braga, a professor with the Rutgers-Newark School of Criminal Justice, told the Newark Star-Ledger that 85 percent of 165 murder victims in Newark between 2009 and 2010 had been arrested at least once before they were killed.
Those victims, he said, had, on average, 10 prior arrests on their criminal records.
A WND review of the Chicago Police Department Murder Analysis reports from 2003 to 2011 provides a statistical breakdown of the demographics of both the victims and offenders in the 4,265 murders in Chicago over that time period.



The Criminology of Firearms
In 2004, the National Academy of Sciences reviewed 253 journal articles, 99 books, 43 government publications and some empirical research of its own about guns. The Academy could not identify any gun restriction that had reduced violent crime, suicide or gun accidents.

Why don't gun bans work? Because they rely on voluntary compliance by gun-using criminals. Prohibitionists never see this absurdity because they deceive themselves into thinking that, as Katherine Christoffel has said: "[M]ost shootings are not committed by felons or mentally ill people, but are acts of passion that are committed using a handgun that is owned for home protection."

*Christoffel, et al., are utterly wrong. The whole corpus of criminological research dating back to the 1890'sshows murderers "almost uniformly have a long history of involvement in criminal behavior," and that "[v]irtually all" murderers and other gun criminals have prior felony records — generally long ones.

While only 15 percent of Americans have criminal records, roughly 90 percent of adult murderers have prior adult records — exclusive of their often extensive juvenile records — with crime careers of six or more adult years including four major felonies. Gerald D. Robin, writing for the Academy of Criminal Justice Sciences,notes that, unlike ordinary gun owners, "the average murderer turns out to be no less hardened a criminal than the average robber or burglar."
====*



> 27 Statistics That Describe How Criminals Use and Obtain Illegal Firearms - Tier Three Tactical





> The vast majority of violent crime in the US occurs amongst those that live a criminal lifestyle. In fact, this study showed that the average homicide victim, in Boston, over a four year period, had been criminally charged themselves an average of 12 times prior to their death.
> This doesn’t mean that they are good or bad people, or that they are somehow less deserving of justice, but it does mean they were no strangers to crime themselves. As they say, violence begets violence.
> That particular study also broke down the circumstances that lead to their death. In total, 66.5% of the situations were gang related, and 15.9% were drug related. Only 13.1% were a personal dispute, with less than 5% between robbery and domestic violence combined.
> Now this is only relevant to Boston during the years of 2010-2014, but I would be surprised if Chicago, Baltimore, or other violent areas are much different.
> This leads us, inevitably, to the conclusion that reducing violent crime and keeping guns off the streets is best tackled as a multifaceted problem. Making guns extra illegal, or changing their appearance will do nothing to prevent someone from buying a gun illegally and using it to settle a score.



========

The 1 % of the population accountable for 63 % of all violent crime convictions​
The 1 % of the population accountable for 63 % of all violent crime convictions
===========
http://www.haciendapublishing.com/m...art-ii-gun-violence-and-constitutional-issues
Another favorite view of the gun control, public health establishment is the myth propounded by Dr. Mark Rosenberg, former head of the NCIPC of the CDC, who has written: "Most of the perpetrators of violence are not criminals by trade or profession. Indeed, in the area of domestic violence, most of the perpetrators are never accused of any crime. The victims and perpetrators are ourselves --- ordinary citizens, students, professionals, and even public health workers."(6) 

That statement is contradicted by available data, government data. The fact is that the typical murderer has had a prior criminal history of at least six years with four felony arrests in his record before he finally commits murder.
=====

*FBI murder by weapon type....*

Expanded Homicide Data Table 8

Guns....10,258

Knives...1,476

Clubs....397

Bare hands....600

Rifles...364


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## M14 Shooter (Dec 20, 2021)

The Constitutional protection afforded to the right to keep and bear arms means the state will never have a monopoly on force.
This is why the left hates said right - and said constitutional protection - so much.


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## braalian (Dec 20, 2021)

An official holiday would be pretty cool


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## 2aguy (Dec 21, 2021)

Yeah….we have days for everything else
We should pick a day and celebrate the 2nd amendment….


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## Colin norris (Dec 21, 2021)

2aguy said:


> Saw this.....and I thought...it's about time we celebrate our ability to exercise our Right to be free from criminal attack, and government tyranny and murder.....
> 
> The anti-gunners here on U.S.messageboard.....believe these people should not be able to own or carry guns....
> 
> ...


You're right to be free came from the democratic process. Not once in the history of the nation has guns be used to defend your freedom. But the irony of republicans defending freedom but simultaneously supporting the capitol riots to destroy democracy.  
Can't you see the hypocrisy of that? Are you that dumb and paranoid about your guns that it's your only feeble excuse.
You don't do much thinking boy.


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## 2aguy (Dec 21, 2021)

Colin norris said:


> You're right to be free came from the democratic process. Not once in the history of the nation has guns be used to defend your freedom. But the irony of republicans defending freedom but simultaneously supporting the capitol riots to destroy democracy.
> Can't you see the hypocrisy of that? Are you that dumb and paranoid about your guns that it's your only feeble excuse.
> You don't do much thinking boy.




Are you really this stupid?

Blacks in this country are only free today because Republicans shot several hundred thousand democrats during the Civil War.....


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## M14 Shooter (Dec 21, 2021)

Colin norris said:


> You're right to be free came from the democratic process.


^^^
Says someone completely ignorant of history.


Colin norris said:


> Not once in the history of the nation has guns be used to defend your freedom.


Do you lie to your kids like this?


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## Colin norris (Dec 21, 2021)

2aguy said:


> Are you really this stupid?
> 
> Blacks in this country are only free today because Republicans shot several hundred thousand democrats during the Civil War.....



No it's you who is  stupid. There was just as many republicans shot also. The majority of the adherents to slavery were republicans but that's embarrassing for  you. Its republicans  who are still racist and hate filled.  Just like you. 
Don't deny it.  You hate blacks.


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## M14 Shooter (Dec 21, 2021)

Colin norris said:


> he majority of the adherents to slavery were republicans


You don't do much thinking, boy.


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## Bootney Lee Farnsworth (Dec 22, 2021)

rightwinger said:


> We get to celebrate 32,000 gun deaths a year
> 
> Something no other country would tolerate


32,000 thanks to half of those who would otherwise find a way to kill themselves and the other half being in gang shootouts in south Chicago and other Democrat shit holes. 

No other country would tolerate a lot of stuff.  That's because the people are subjects with no rights.

You should go live in one of those places.  You'd be happier.


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## rightwinger (Dec 22, 2021)

Bootney Lee Farnsworth said:


> 32,000 thanks to half of those who would otherwise find a way to kill themselves and the other half being in gang shootouts in south Chicago and other Democrat shit holes.
> 
> No other country would tolerate a lot of stuff.  That's because the people are subjects with no rights.
> 
> You should go live in one of those places.  You'd be happier.


Thanks to those who ensure that those with suicidal thoughts are provided open access to firearms


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## 2aguy (Dec 22, 2021)

Bootney Lee Farnsworth said:


> 32,000 thanks to half of those who would otherwise find a way to kill themselves and the other half being in gang shootouts in south Chicago and other Democrat shit holes.
> 
> No other country would tolerate a lot of stuff.  That's because the people are subjects with no rights.
> 
> You should go live in one of those places.  You'd be happier.




Europe allowed 15 million, at least, of their citizens to be murdered by the socialists in Germany.......after those European countries took away their guns, with the exact same promises of safety our anti-gun extremists are making.....


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## 2aguy (Dec 22, 2021)

rightwinger said:


> Thanks to those who ensure that those with suicidal thoughts are provided open access to firearms




And tall buildings, pills, plastic bags and rubber bands, trains, and cleaning products.....and rope.....


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## Bootney Lee Farnsworth (Dec 22, 2021)

rightwinger said:


> Thanks to those who ensure that those with suicidal thoughts are provided open access to firearms


Are they also provided open access to dangerous drugs and open windows in tall buildings?  Are they provided access to freeways, railroad tracks, garages with cars parked inside and access to keys, knives, tools, and any other number of methods?

No, you use 16,000 gun suicides to make the unlawful use of firearms look 100x worse so you can grab those guns.  

We are not persuaded.  Machine guns or Valhalla.


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## Canon Shooter (Dec 22, 2021)

I celebrate my 2nd Amendment rights every time I leave the house in the morning...


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## Bootney Lee Farnsworth (Dec 22, 2021)

2aguy said:


> And tall buildings, pills, plastic bags and rubber bands, trains, and cleaning products.....and rope.....


I was typing pretty much the same thing.


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## Vagabond63 (Dec 26, 2021)

Yes, celebrate your right to bear arms. Like this "responsible" gun owner.




__





						British estate agent shot dead in US 'by evicted tenant'
					





					www.msn.com


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## M14 Shooter (Dec 26, 2021)

Vagabond63 said:


> Yes, celebrate your right to bear arms. Like this "responsible" gun owner.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


What do you think this proves, and why?


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## White 6 (Dec 26, 2021)

I got a couple of gift cards for Christmas.  I think I'll celebrate the 2nd amendment with a new Craft shoulder holster.  Hip holsters are as big a pain in the ass (or actually hip) as they were in the Army, where I usually used a shoulder holster, for ease of getting in and out hatches, doors, etc. and riding in vehicles, seated.  I slept, wearing one, in the field, just fine.  This one looks nice and gets great reviews.


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## M14 Shooter (Dec 26, 2021)

White 6 said:


> I got a couple of gift cards for Christmas.  I think I'll celebrate the 2nd amendment with a new Craft shoulder holster.  Hip holsters are as big a pain in the ass (or actually hip) as they were in the Army, where I usually used a shoulder holster, for ease of getting in and out hatches, doors, etc. and riding in vehicles, seated.  I slept, wearing one, in the field, just fine.  This one looks nice and gets great reviews.
> View attachment 580033


My kids got me one of those 100rd saddle mags for the AR15.
More dakka!


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## Wild Bill Kelsoe (Dec 26, 2021)

rightwinger said:


> We get to celebrate 32,000 gun deaths a year
> 
> Something no other country would tolerate


We should outlaw suicide and arrest murderers.  Problem solved.


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## Wild Bill Kelsoe (Dec 26, 2021)

White 6 said:


> I got a couple of gift cards for Christmas.  I think I'll celebrate the 2nd amendment with a new Craft shoulder holster.  Hip holsters are as big a pain in the ass (or actually hip) as they were in the Army, where I usually used a shoulder holster, for ease of getting in and out hatches, doors, etc. and riding in vehicles, seated.  I slept, wearing one, in the field, just fine.  This one looks nice and gets great reviews.
> View attachment 580033


Is that the one with the holster than can also be worn on the belt?


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## 2aguy (Dec 26, 2021)

Vagabond63 said:


> Yes, celebrate your right to bear arms. Like this "responsible" gun owner.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Please find enough to offset the 1.1 million times a year Americans use their legal guns to save lives according to the CDC...or 1.5 million from the Department of Justice, or 1.67 million from the 2020 Firearms survey......

We will wait.


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## 2aguy (Dec 26, 2021)

Vagabond63 said:


> Yes, celebrate your right to bear arms. Like this "responsible" gun owner.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




While you are here...maybe you would finally answer these questions.....

A woman is grabbed by a violent serial rapist at a bus stop, a train platform or in her apartment...he plans on beating, raping and murdering her. She has a gun, and can stop the rape with the gun......

Do you want her to use that gun to stop the rape?

A woman stops an attack with a gun, a brutal rape, torture and murder...in a public space....if you had the ability to go back in time, and prevent her from having that gun...would you?
====

The British government will not allow a woman to own and carry a gun to prevent being gang raped in a London park.....saying she does not have "good reason," to own the gun.

A member of the House of Lords wants to quail hunt with his rich friends on his private country estate, and the British government gives him the gun....because he has "good reason."

Does this make sense to you?


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## rightwinger (Dec 26, 2021)

Wild Bill Kelsoe said:


> We should outlaw suicide and arrest murderers.  Problem solved.


We have 2.5 million in prison, higher incarceration rate than anywhere in the world

It is not working
We still have 10,000 murders a year


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## rightwinger (Dec 26, 2021)

2aguy said:


> Please find enough to offset the 1.1 million times a year Americans use their legal guns to save lives according to the CDC...or 1.5 million from the Department of Justice, or 1.67 million from the 2020 Firearms survey......
> 
> We will wait.


bullshit number based on gun owners fantasies of “saving lives”









						Gun Threats and Self-Defense Gun Use
					

1-3. Guns are not used millions of times each year in self-defense We use epidemiological theory to explain why the “false positive” problem for rare events can lead to large overestimates of the i…




					www.hsph.harvard.edu


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## rightwinger (Dec 26, 2021)

Firearms are used far more often to intimidate than in self-defense

Using data from a national random-digit-dial telephone survey conducted under the direction of the Harvard Injury Control Center, we examined the extent and nature of offensive gun use.  *We found that firearms are used far more often to frighten and intimidate than they are used in self-defense.*


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## rightwinger (Dec 26, 2021)

Guns in the home are used more often to intimidate intimates than to thwart crime

Using data from a national random-digit-dial telephone survey conducted under the direction of the Harvard Injury Control Research Center, we investigated how and when guns are used in the home.  We found that guns in the home are used more often to frighten intimates than to thwart crime; other weapons are far more commonly used against intruders than are guns.


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## 2aguy (Dec 26, 2021)

rightwinger said:


> Guns in the home are used more often to intimidate intimates than to thwart crime
> 
> Using data from a national random-digit-dial telephone survey conducted under the direction of the Harvard Injury Control Research Center, we investigated how and when guns are used in the home.  We found that guns in the home are used more often to frighten intimates than to thwart crime; other weapons are far more commonly used against intruders than are guns.




The ones intimidating intimates are the criminals the democrat party keeps releasing...and they are not allowed to buy, own or carry guns...


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## 2aguy (Dec 26, 2021)

rightwinger said:


> We have 2.5 million in prison, higher incarceration rate than anywhere in the world
> 
> It is not working
> We still have 10,000 murders a year




Yep....the democrats keep letting the violent criminals........if they would stop doing that, we would reduce our gun crime, since it is those repeat offenders who can't buy, own or carry guns who are doing almost all of the shooting.....

Meanwhile, normal Americans with guns use them 1.1 million times a year, according to the CDC,  to stop violent rapes, robberies, murders, beatings, and stabbings...or 1.5 million  times a year if you use the Department of Justice research.


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## C_Clayton_Jones (Dec 26, 2021)

2aguy said:


> government tyranny and murder


Wrong.

The Second Amendment codifies an individual right to possess a firearm pursuant to lawful self-defense, not to engage in lawless treason against a constitutionally elected government reflecting the will of the people through force of arms.

There’s nothing in the history, text, or case law of the Second Amendment that supports insurrectionist dogma.

“An historically sound understanding of the Second Amendment's English heritage belies the proposition that the Second Amendment was intended to grant an individual right to keep or bear arms against governmental tyranny.”



			http://malvinartley.com/PDF%20Files/THE%20HIDDEN%20HISTORY%20OF%20THE%20SECOND%20AMENDMENT.pdf
		


The Framers did not amend the Constitution to authorize the destruction of the Republic they had just created.


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## White 6 (Dec 26, 2021)

Wild Bill Kelsoe said:


> Is that the one with the holster than can also be worn on the belt?


Yes.  Holster can be taken off the straps and worn on belt.


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## 2aguy (Dec 27, 2021)

Vagabond63 said:


> Yes, celebrate your right to bear arms. Like this "responsible" gun owner.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




That isn't a celebration of the Right, since it was a criminal act....

This....this is a celebration of the Right....Thanks, Votto...

*n elderly man and his wife were violently attacked by a home intruder but he was able to shoot and kill the suspect, who was nearly naked at the time.*
*
Pennsylvania State Police said that 54-year-old Steven David Schaffer had tried to get into another home in Berwick Township and other people's cars before he assaulted the couple who are in their seventies.

They said that Schaffer was nude during the attack except for a t-shirt.
*
*During the attack the husband told his wife to get their gun from their bedroom. Police said that Schaffer followed the woman and "violently attacked" her while she tried to retrieve the gun. The husband was able to get the gun and shoot Schaffer several times, killing him.*









						Elderly man shoots and kills nearly naked home intruder who assaulted him and his wife, PA police say
					

An elderly man and his wife were violently attacked by a home intruder but he was able to shoot and kill the suspect, who was nearly naked at the time.  	Pennsylvania State Police said that 54-year-old Steven David Schaffer had tried to get into another home in Berwick Township and other...




					www.theblaze.com
				




In your country, the couple would have been beaten to death........you must be happy with that...right?


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## Bootney Lee Farnsworth (Dec 27, 2021)

rightwinger said:


> We have 2.5 million in prison, higher incarceration rate than anywhere in the world
> 
> It is not working
> We still have 10,000 murders a year


End the war on drugs and a large part of that problem goes away.


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## Blues Man (Dec 27, 2021)

rightwinger said:


> We get to celebrate 32,000 gun deaths a year
> 
> Something no other country would tolerate


2/3 of those are death by choice 

People do have the right to choose whether they live or die.


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## M14 Shooter (Dec 27, 2021)

C_Clayton_Jones said:


> There’s nothing in the history, text, or case law of the Second Amendment that supports insurrectionist dogma.


^^^^
This is a lie.

"What country can preserve its liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance. Let them take arms."
- Thomas Jefferson, letter to William Stephens Smith, son-in-law of John Adams, December 20, 1787

"What, Sir, is the use of a militia? It is to prevent the establishment of a standing army, the bane of liberty .... Whenever Governments mean to invade the rights and liberties of the people, they always attempt to destroy the militia, in order to raise an army upon their ruins."
- Rep. Elbridge Gerry of Massachusetts, _I Annals of Congress 750_, August 17, 1789

If the representatives of the people betray their constituents, there is then no resource left but in the exertion of that original right of self-defense which is paramount to all positive forms of government, and which against the usurpations of the national rulers, may be exerted with infinitely better prospect of success than against those of the rulers of an individual state. In a single state, if the persons intrusted with supreme power become usurpers, the different parcels, subdivisions, or districts of which it consists, having no distinct government in each, can take no regular measures for defense. The citizens must rush tumultuously to arms, without concert, without system, without resource; except in their courage and despair."
- Alexander Hamilton, _Federalist No. 28_

"--That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness."
- Thomas Jefferson, Declaration of Independence


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## Blues Man (Dec 27, 2021)

rightwinger said:


> bullshit number based on gun owners fantasies of “saving lives”
> 
> 
> 
> ...


it doesn;'t matter how many times guns are used in self defense.

If even one person used a gun in self defense annually it's more than enough but we all know that it happens far more than that.


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## Blues Man (Dec 27, 2021)

Bootney Lee Farnsworth said:


> End the war on drugs and a large part of that problem goes away.


enforce all the federal gun  laws on the books and that takes care of most of the rest


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## Wild Bill Kelsoe (Dec 27, 2021)

Vagabond63 said:


> Yes, celebrate your right to bear arms. Like this "responsible" gun owner.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


He could have just as easily used a knife, or a hammer.


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## Blues Man (Dec 27, 2021)

C_Clayton_Jones said:


> Wrong.
> 
> The Second Amendment codifies an individual right to possess a firearm pursuant to lawful self-defense, not to engage in lawless treason against a constitutionally elected government reflecting the will of the people through force of arms.
> 
> ...


And if that government ever contradicts the will of the people?


----------



## westwall (Dec 27, 2021)

rightwinger said:


> Firearms are used far more often to intimidate than in self-defense
> 
> Using data from a national random-digit-dial telephone survey conducted under the direction of the Harvard Injury Control Center, we examined the extent and nature of offensive gun use.  *We found that firearms are used far more often to frighten and intimidate than they are used in self-defense.*






EXACTLY!  The overwhelming majority of defensive gun uses require brandishing it only!  

Present a weapon and bad people flee to go prey on the unarmed.

Duh!


----------



## westwall (Dec 27, 2021)

We normally break out our machineguns around now, but our range is under 6 feet of snow right now!


----------



## Blues Man (Dec 27, 2021)

westwall said:


> EXACTLY!  The overwhelming majority of defensive gun uses require brandishing it only!
> 
> Present a weapon and bad people flee to go prey on the unarmed.
> 
> Duh!


And it is also an example of the amount of control the average law abiding citizen gun owner exhibits that these would be victimizers aren't shot at a much higher rate than they are.


----------



## rightwinger (Dec 27, 2021)

westwall said:


> EXACTLY!  The overwhelming majority of defensive gun uses require brandishing it only!
> 
> Present a weapon and bad people flee to go prey on the unarmed.
> 
> Duh!


Even when it is YOU who is the bad person

Turning what should be an ordinary argument into a gun confrontation. 
My GUN says I am right


----------



## Blues Man (Dec 27, 2021)

rightwinger said:


> Even when it is YOU who is the bad person
> 
> Turning what should be an ordinary argument into a gun confrontation.
> My GUN says I am right


And it just doesn't happen as often as you like to think it does.

How many people every year pull a gun over an argument?


----------



## rightwinger (Dec 27, 2021)

Blues Man said:


> And it just doesn't happen as often as you like to think it does.
> 
> How many people every year pull a gun over an argument?



It happens in road rage incidents, domestic arguments, arguments in a bar

These are the incidents being reported as “using my gun to save my life”


----------



## Blues Man (Dec 27, 2021)

rightwinger said:


> It happens in road rage incidents, domestic arguments, arguments in a bar
> 
> These are the incidents being reported as “using my gun to save my life”


How many?

Give us real statistics not anecdotes.


----------



## 2aguy (Dec 27, 2021)

rightwinger said:


> It happens in road rage incidents, domestic arguments, arguments in a bar
> 
> These are the incidents being reported as “using my gun to save my life”




No, actually, they aren't.....domestic arguments and "road raged," are committed by violent criminals..not normal people who own guns for self defense.....the domestic abuse is criminals, gang members and other violent people hurting baby mommas......

Thanks for trying to lie about it though....


----------



## Vagabond63 (Dec 30, 2021)

2aguy said:


> Please find enough to offset the 1.1 million times a year Americans use their legal guns to save lives according to the CDC...or 1.5 million from the Department of Justice, or 1.67 million from the 2020 Firearms survey......
> 
> We will wait.


Oh dear, this BS again. Started out at 2.5 million, which was debunked, now it's 1.1 million  from a non existant study, pathetic. Next?


----------



## Whodatsaywhodat. (Dec 30, 2021)

2aguy said:


> Saw this.....and I thought...it's about time we celebrate our ability to exercise our Right to be free from criminal attack, and government tyranny and murder.....
> 
> The anti-gunners here on U.S.messageboard.....believe these people should not be able to own or carry guns....
> 
> ...


Hallelujah..... God bless America. Democrats suck.


----------



## Whodatsaywhodat. (Dec 30, 2021)

Vagabond63 said:


> Oh dear, this BS again. Started out at 2.5 million, which was debunked, now it's 1.1 million  from a non existant study, pathetic. Next?


Irrelevant, if it saved one American its worth it. Don't be a victim.


----------



## Vagabond63 (Dec 30, 2021)

2aguy said:


> No, actually they aren't.....domestic arguments and "road raged," are committed by violent criminals..not normal people who own guns for self defense.....the domestic abuse is criminals, gang members and other violent people hurting baby mommas......


Really? A quick scan through American news media:

Daughters injured in quadruple shooting that left mom dead say they want justice

New York personal trainer arrested and accused of shooting his parents on Christmas

California man accused of fatally shooting his grandmother, father's girlfriend on Christmas

911 caller says husband shot 16-year-old daughter because he thought she was an intruder

No fries with that: Ogden man charged in gun threat at fast-food drive-up

Employee Charged With Murder After Shooting Suspected Thief: Police

Shotgun expert 'only wanted to scare son-in-law'

By all accounts these people are all "normal" law abiding American citizens. 

Thanks for trying to lie about it though....


----------



## Vagabond63 (Dec 30, 2021)

Whodatsaywhodat. said:


> Irrelevant, if it saved one American its worth it. Don't be a victim.


By you logic, then the death of one child by gunfire should be enough to ban all guns. Thanks.


----------



## Vagabond63 (Dec 30, 2021)

Blues Man said:


> How many?


Just take a few minutes to scan your local news sites, I found ten such incidents in as many minutes of searching for December this year alone. Maybe somone should do a study...


----------



## Vagabond63 (Dec 30, 2021)

2aguy said:


> Yep....the democrats keep letting the violent criminals........if they would stop doing that, we would reduce our gun crime, since it is those repeat offenders who can't buy, own or carry guns who are doing almost all of the shooting....



Oh if only responsible gun owners looked after their guns...

'A crime of opportunity': More guns than ever were stolen from vehicles in Nashville in 2021

More “responsible” gun owners behaving irresponsibly; and that’s only in one city. We could do a "Lott" or a "Kleck" and extrapolate these numbers across the USA which would give us between 402,880 and 24,544,205 guns stolen from responsible gun owners vehicles in the US in 2021. Wow, so many irresponsible “responsible” gun owners! Of course, we also would need to look at thefts from homes and gun stores…


----------



## 2aguy (Dec 30, 2021)

Vagabond63 said:


> Oh dear, this BS again. Started out at 2.5 million, which was debunked, now it's 1.1 million  from a non existant study, pathetic. Next?




Wasn't debunked that was Kleck's numbrer.....1.1 is from the Centers from Disease Control, 1.5 million from the Department of Justice, 1.67 from the current 2021 Firearms survey....

You guys have been lying about Kleck's work ever since it came out.....but the government, anti-gun researchers from the CDC and the Department of Justice tried to discredit his work, and simply confirmed it........


----------



## hadit (Dec 30, 2021)

Colin norris said:


> No it's you who is  stupid. There was just as many republicans shot also. The majority of the adherents to slavery were republicans but that's embarrassing for  you. Its republicans  who are still racist and hate filled.  Just like you.
> Don't deny it.  You hate blacks.


Seriously, you really should have paid more attention in history class. Look up when the Republican party was founded and what its major reason for being was.


----------



## Blues Man (Dec 30, 2021)

Vagabond63 said:


> Just take a few minutes to scan your local news sites, I found ten such incidents in as many minutes of searching for December this year alone. Maybe somone should do a study...


Uh huh

My local news is as boring as it gets.  There is virtually no crime in my and my 2 neighboring counties


----------



## 2aguy (Dec 30, 2021)

Vagabond63 said:


> Really? A quick scan through American news media:
> 
> Daughters injured in quadruple shooting that left mom dead say they want justice
> 
> ...




Yes......the stories covered by uninformed, left wing, anti-gun journalists......while the stories of actual self defense go unreported because they don't have bodies on the ground.....

Now....the truth.....

*While Americans know that guns take many innocent lives every year, many don’t know that firearms also save them.*
*
On May 15, an attacker at an apartment complex in Fort Smith, Ark., fatally shot a woman and then fired 93 rounds at other people before a man killed him with a bolt-action rifle. Police said he “likely saved a number of lives in the process.” 


On June 30, a 12-year-old Louisiana boy used a hunting rifle to stop an armed burglar who was threatening his mother’s life during a home invasion.

On July 4, a Chicago gunman shot into a crowd of people, killing one and wounding two others before a concealed handgun permit holder shot and wounded the attacker. Police praised him for stepping in.
-----
Americans who look only at the daily headlines would be surprised to learn that, according to academic estimates, defensive gun uses — including instances when guns are simply shown to deter a crime — are four to five times more common than gun crimes, and far more frequent than the roughly 20,000 murders or fewer each year, with or without a gun. But even when they prevent mass public shootings, defensive uses rarely get national news coverage. Those living in major news markets such as New York City, Washington, D.C., and Los Angeles are unlikely to hear of such stories.*

*As of Aug. 10, America’s five largest newspapers — the New York Times, Washington Post, Los Angeles Times, USA Today, and the Wall Street Journal — have published a combined total of 10 news stories this year reporting a civilian  using a gun to successfully stop a crime, according to a search of the Nexis database of news stories. By contrast, those same newspapers had a total of 1,743 news stories containing the keywords “murder” or “murdered” or “murders” and “gunfire,” “shot,” or “shots.” Including articles with the word “wounded,” the total rises to 2,764.

“Nobody who has done their homework on defensive gun use could possibly believe reading news articles accurately captures anything but an infinitesimal share of defensive gun uses,” Tomislav Kovandzic, an associate professor of criminology at the University of Texas at Dallas, told RealClearInvestigations. “The only way to measure defensive gun uses is with surveys. While there is no such thing as a perfect measure of anything, the fact that they consistently show large numbers of defensive gun uses can’t be ignored.”

The U.S. Department of Justice’s National Crime Victimization Survey indicates that around 100,000 defensive gun uses occur each year -- an estimate that, though it may seem like a lot, is actually much lower than 17 other surveys. They find between 760,000 defensive handgun uses and 3.6 million defensive uses of any type of gun per year, with an average of about 2 million.

The difference between these surveys arises from the screening questions. The National Crime Victimization Survey first asks a person if they have been a victim of a crime. Only respondents who answer “yes” are asked if they have ever used a gun defensively.
----

Defensive gun uses don't loom large as a public concern not only because they tend not to feature dead bodies or blood. They are also underplayed because of a distorting feedback loop involving news organizations. 


Many leading outfits use data from the Gun Violence Archive to track firearm use. The GVA, however, relies primarily on news reports, creating literally an unvirtuous circle. This media coverage focuses on the most extreme cases, which academic research suggests is actually a minority of gun uses.
*
*“Media stories cannot be trusted to accurately reflect the number or type of defensive gun uses that actually occur,” Professor Gary Mauser of Canada’s Simon Fraser University told RCI. Mauser has conducted national surveys on defensive gun use. “National surveys find that firearms are rarely fired when used to stop a violent attack," he said. "Such cases are unlikely to be reported to the police, and even less likely to found in media stories. Relying upon media stories would greatly underestimate the true number of defensive gun uses.”
-----*
*Compounding the challenge, most police departments do not compile data on defensive gun use. One exception is the Houston Police Department. Jodi Silva, a spokesperson for the department, told RCI it has a rule to release a press statement whenever someone has been killed or wounded in a shooting. No other department does that. This helps explain why two-thirds of defensive gun uses compiled by the GVA come from Houston, with the rest found in news stories from elsewhere.  *
*
Mauser notes another anomaly: Police departments are only reporting instances when shots are fired. “That means they are certainly missing most defensive gun use cases,” he says. 
*
*Texas has the most news stories on defensive gun uses, with over 14% of all the cases. That isn’t surprising given that it’s the most populous state with less restrictive concealed-carry laws. Just three states – Texas, Florida, and Ohio – accounted for over 26% of all the defensive gun use news stories.*












						There Are Far More Defensive Gun Uses Than Murders. Here's Why You Rarely Hear of Them.
					

While Americans know that guns take many innocent lives every year, many don’t know that firearms also save them. On May 15, an attacker at an apartment complex in Fort Smith, Ark., fatally




					www.realclearinvestigations.com
				






*Now.......how about answering these questions......*
*
A woman is grabbed by a violent serial rapist at a bus stop, a train platform or in her apartment...he plans on beating, raping and murdering her. She has a gun, and can stop the rape with the gun......

Do you want her to use that gun to stop the rape?

A woman stops an attack with a gun, a brutal rape, torture and murder...in a public space....if you had the ability to go back in time, and prevent her from having that gun...would you?
=======

The British government will not allow a woman to own and carry a gun to prevent being gang raped in a London park.....saying she does not have "good reason," to own the gun.

A member of the House of Lords wants to quail hunt with his rich friends on his private country estate, and the British government gives him the gun....because he has "good reason."
*
*Does this make sense to you?*


----------



## 2aguy (Dec 30, 2021)

Vagabond63 said:


> Oh if only responsible gun owners looked after their guns...
> 
> 'A crime of opportunity': More guns than ever were stolen from vehicles in Nashville in 2021
> 
> More “responsible” gun owners behaving irresponsibly; and that’s only in one city. We could do a "Lott" or a "Kleck" and extrapolate these numbers across the USA which would give us between 402,880 and 24,544,205 guns stolen from responsible gun owners vehicles in the US in 2021. Wow, so many irresponsible “responsible” gun owners! Of course, we also would need to look at thefts from homes and gun stores…




The problem, you uninformed doofus....is that anti-gunners like you, here in the states, make as many public spaces as possible gun free zones....for normal gun owners.....this requires normal gun owners to store their guns in their car for the simple act of going shopping at the local grocery store.  Then, the people the democrat party keeps releasing.....criminals.....break into cars and steal guns.....

Gun free zones, and the idiots who create them, cause gun theft, not normal gun owners....

And again....please answer the following questions....which you have yet to do......I wonder why?

*A woman is grabbed by a violent serial rapist at a bus stop, a train platform or in her apartment...he plans on beating, raping and murdering her. She has a gun, and can stop the rape with the gun......*
*
Do you want her to use that gun to stop the rape?

A woman stops an attack with a gun, a brutal rape, torture and murder...in a public space....if you had the ability to go back in time, and prevent her from having that gun...would you?
=======
The British government will not allow a woman to own and carry a gun to prevent being gang raped in a London park.....saying she does not have "good reason," to own the gun.

A member of the House of Lords wants to quail hunt with his rich friends on his private country estate, and the British government gives him the gun....because he has "good reason."
*
*Does this make sense to you?*


----------



## Blues Man (Dec 30, 2021)

Vagabond63 said:


> Oh if only responsible gun owners looked after their guns...
> 
> 'A crime of opportunity': More guns than ever were stolen from vehicles in Nashville in 2021
> 
> More “responsible” gun owners behaving irresponsibly; and that’s only in one city. We could do a "Lott" or a "Kleck" and extrapolate these numbers across the USA which would give us between 402,880 and 24,544,205 guns stolen from responsible gun owners vehicles in the US in 2021. Wow, so many irresponsible “responsible” gun owners! Of course, we also would need to look at thefts from homes and gun stores…


So blame the victim of a crime and not the actual fucking criminal.

I guess the 700000 annual rape victims just had it coming too, right?


----------



## 2aguy (Dec 30, 2021)

Vagabond63 said:


> Oh if only responsible gun owners looked after their guns...
> 
> 'A crime of opportunity': More guns than ever were stolen from vehicles in Nashville in 2021
> 
> More “responsible” gun owners behaving irresponsibly; and that’s only in one city. We could do a "Lott" or a "Kleck" and extrapolate these numbers across the USA which would give us between 402,880 and 24,544,205 guns stolen from responsible gun owners vehicles in the US in 2021. Wow, so many irresponsible “responsible” gun owners! Of course, we also would need to look at thefts from homes and gun stores…




And the other side....lives saved...because Americans can defend themselves....

600 million guns in private hands......over 21.25 million Americans can carry guns legally in public for self defense.........



American use those legal guns 1.1 million times a year to stop rapes, stabbings, beatings, robberies, and murders, as well as also stopping mass public shootings when they are allowed to have their legal guns with them...



Gun deaths...the truth....



2019...



Gun murder...10,235



Gun accidents...486



Of the gun murder deaths....over 70-80% of the victims are not regular Americans....they are criminals...murdered by other criminals in primarily democrat party controlled cities....where the democrat party judges, prosecutors and politicians have released them over and over again no matter how many times they are arrested for felony, illegal gun possession and violent crimes with guns...that's on you and your political party...not normal gun owners.





Gun suicides... 23,491...





Americans use their legal guns 1.1 million times a year to stop brutal rapes, robberies, beatings, knifings, murders......according to the Centers for Disease Control, and 1.5 million times according to the Department of Justice.



Lives saved....based on research?  By law abiding gun owners using guns to stop criminals?



Case Closed: Kleck Is Still Correct





* that makes for at least 176,000 lives saved—*



Money saved from people not being beaten, raped, murdered, robbed?.......





*So figuring that the average DGU saves one half of a person’s life—as “gun violence” predominantly affects younger demographics—that gives us $3.465 million per half life.*

*Putting this all together, we find that the monetary benefit of guns (by way of DGUs) is roughly $1.02 trillion per year. That’s trillion. With a ‘T’.

I was going to go on and calculate the costs of incarceration ($50K/year) saved by people killing 1527 criminals annually, and then look at the lifetime cost to society of an average criminal (something in excess of $1 million). But all of that would be a drop in the bucket compared to the $1,000,000,000,000 ($1T) annual benefit of gun ownership.*
*
When compared to the (inflation adjusted from 2002) $127.5 billion ‘cost’ of gun violence calculated by by our Ludwig-Cook buddies, guns save a little more than eight times what they “cost.”

Which, I might add, is completely irrelevant since “the freedom to own and carry the weapon of your choice is a natural, fundamental, and inalienable human, individual, civil, and Constitutional right — subject neither to the democratic process nor to arguments grounded in social utility.”
*
*So even taking Motherboard’s own total and multiplying it by 100, the benefits to society of civilian gun ownership dwarf the associated costs.*


Annual Defensive Gun Use Savings Dwarf Study's "Gun Violence" Costs - The Truth About Guns


----------



## 2aguy (Dec 30, 2021)

Vagabond63 said:


> Oh if only responsible gun owners looked after their guns...
> 
> 'A crime of opportunity': More guns than ever were stolen from vehicles in Nashville in 2021
> 
> More “responsible” gun owners behaving irresponsibly; and that’s only in one city. We could do a "Lott" or a "Kleck" and extrapolate these numbers across the USA which would give us between 402,880 and 24,544,205 guns stolen from responsible gun owners vehicles in the US in 2021. Wow, so many irresponsible “responsible” gun owners! Of course, we also would need to look at thefts from homes and gun stores…




If only women would stop dressing in sexy clothes, they wouldn't be raped so much.......is essentially what you are saying here.......


----------



## Whodatsaywhodat. (Dec 30, 2021)

Vagabond63 said:


> By you logic, then the death of one child by gunfire should be enough to ban all guns. Thanks.


Anti American troll. Go away.


----------



## Vagabond63 (Jan 1, 2022)

Wild Bill Kelsoe said:


> He could have just as easily used a knife, or a hammer.


True, but the "right to bear arms" doesn't specify right to bear firearms, does it?


----------



## Vagabond63 (Jan 1, 2022)

Blues Man said:


> Uh huh
> 
> My local news is as boring as it gets.  There is virtually no crime in my and my 2 neighboring counties


Apologies, by local, I meant American.


----------



## Vagabond63 (Jan 1, 2022)

2aguy said:


> If only women would stop dressing in sexy clothes, they wouldn't be raped so much.......is essentially what you are saying here.......


You really do have a rape fixation, don't you. Do yourself a favour and get psychiatric help.


----------



## Vagabond63 (Jan 1, 2022)

2aguy said:


> And the other side....lives saved...because Americans can defend themselves....


Ah yes the predictable torrent of repetative cut and paste. Next?


----------



## 2aguy (Jan 1, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> True, but the "right to bear arms" doesn't specify right to bear firearms, does it?



Yeah, and Freedom of speech doesn’t specify which speech and freedom of religion doesn’t specify which religion….right?

No wonder you guys lost your empire.


----------



## 2aguy (Jan 1, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> You really do have a rape fixation, don't you. Do yourself a favour and get psychiatric help.



You tell us, and any woman reading this thread, everything we need to know when you refuse to answer those questions

A woman is grabbed by a violent serial rapist at a bus stop, a train platform or in her apartment...he plans on beating, raping and murdering her. She has a gun, and can stop the rape with the gun.....
.
Do you want her to use that gun to stop the rape?

A woman stops an attack with a gun, a brutal rape, torture and murder...in a public space....if you had the ability to go back in time, and prevent her from having that gun...would you?
=====

The British government will not allow a woman to own and carry a gun to prevent being gang raped in a London park.....saying she does not have "good reason," to own the gun.

A member of the House of Lords wants to quail hunt with his rich friends on his private country estate, and the British government gives him the gun....because he has "good reason."

Does this make sense to you?


----------



## 2aguy (Jan 1, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> Oh dear, this BS again. Started out at 2.5 million, which was debunked, now it's 1.1 million  from a non existant study, pathetic. Next?



You guys keep using that word, “ debunked,” for things you don’t like……….as if that means anything


----------



## Wild Bill Kelsoe (Jan 1, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> True, but the "right to bear arms" doesn't specify right to bear firearms, does it?


A firearm is an "arm".  The word "arm" is literally part of the word firearm.

The 1st Amendment doesn't say anything about the "separation of church and state", but people swear up and down that it does.


----------



## 2aguy (Jan 1, 2022)

Wild Bill Kelsoe said:


> A firearm is an "arm".  The word "arm" is literally part of the word firearm.
> 
> The 1st Amendment doesn't say anything about the "separation of church and state", but people swear up and down that it does.




Yeah....ain't that Brit great..........The 1st Amendment doesn't say which "press" is allowed to be free.......it doesn't say "which" people are allowed to petition for grievances.....

I am amazed they kept their empire as long as they did....

When Putin takes over Europe........will it be hard for them to learn to speak Russian?


----------



## 2aguy (Jan 1, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> Oh dear, this BS again. Started out at 2.5 million, which was debunked, now it's 1.1 million  from a non existant study, pathetic. Next?




Here...the rest of the studies......

A quick guide to the studies and the numbers.....the full lay out of what was studied by each study is in the links....

The name of the group doing the study, the year of the study, the number of defensive gun uses and if police and military defensive gun uses are included.....notice the bill clinton and obama defensive gun use research is highlighted.....

GunCite-Gun Control-How Often Are Guns Used in Self-Defense 

GunCite Frequency of Defensive Gun Use in Previous Surveys

Field...1976....3,052,717 ( no cops, no military)

DMIa 1978...2,141,512 ( no cops, no military)

L.A. TIMES...1994...3,609,68 ( no cops, no military)

Kleck......1994...2.5 million ( no cops, no military)

2021 national firearm survey, Prof. William English, PhD. designed by Deborah Azrael of Harvard T. Chan School of public policy, and  Mathew Miller, Northeastern university.......1.67 million defensive uses annually.

CDC...1996-1998... 1.1 million  averaged over  those years.( no cops, no military)

Obama's CDC....2013....500,000--3million

--------------------


Bordua...1977...1,414,544

DMIb...1978...1,098,409 ( no cops, no military)

Hart...1981...1.797,461 ( no cops, no military)

Mauser...1990...1,487,342 ( no cops,no military)

Gallup...1993...1,621,377 ( no cops, no military)

DEPT. OF JUSTICE...1994...1.5 million ( the bill clinton study)

Journal of Quantitative Criminology--- 989,883 times per year."

(Based on survey data from a 2000 study published in the _Journal of Quantitative Criminology_,[17] U.S. civilians use guns to defend themselves and others from crime at least 989,883 times per year.[18])

Paper: "Measuring Civilian Defensive Firearm Use: A Methodological Experiment." By David McDowall and others. _Journal of Quantitative Criminology_, March 2000. Measuring Civilian Defensive Firearm Use: A Methodological Experiment - Springer


-------------------------------------------

Ohio...1982...771,043

Gallup...1991...777,152

Tarrance... 1994... 764,036 (no cops, no military)

Lawerence Southwich Jr. 400,000 fewer violent crimes and at least 800,000 violent crimes deterred..

*2021 national firearms survey..

The survey was designed by Deborah Azrael of the Harvard T.H. Chan School of Public Health, and Matthew Miller of Northeastern University,*
*----
The survey further finds that approximately a third of gun owners (31.1%) have used a firearm to defend themselves or their property, often on more than one occasion, and it estimates that guns are used defensively by firearms owners in approximately 1.67 million incidents per year. Handguns are the most common firearm employed for self-defense (used in 65.9% of defensive incidents), and in most defensive incidents (81.9%) no shot was fired. Approximately a quarter (25.2%) of defensive incidents occurred within the gun owner's home, and approximately half (53.9%) occurred outside their home, but on their property. About one out of ten (9.1%) defensive gun uses occurred in public, and about one out of twenty (4.8%) occurred at work.
2021 National Firearms Survey*


----------



## M14 Shooter (Jan 1, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> True, but the "right to bear arms" doesn't specify right to bear firearms, does it?


There's no question whatsoever that "arms", whatever else it may mean, includes firearms.
Current jurisprudence indicates that it includes all "bearable arms", which, at the least, includes all firearms in common use for traditionally  lawful purposes.


----------



## Vagabond63 (Jan 2, 2022)

M14 Shooter said:


> There's no question whatsoever that "arms", whatever else it may mean, includes firearms.
> Current jurisprudence indicates that it includes all "bearable arms", which, at the least, includes all firearms in common use for traditionally  lawful purposes.


Never said it didn't. My point was, you can just as easily have a "well regulated militia" armed with Bows, etc.


----------



## Vagabond63 (Jan 2, 2022)

2aguy said:


> Here...the rest of the studies......
> 
> A quick guide to the studies and the numbers.....the full lay out of what was studied by each study is in the links....
> 
> ...


Blah, blah. Same cut and paste drivel. Extrapolated guesswork based on limited sample "opinion polls", Even your 2021 National Firearms survey clearly states ESTIMATES, estimates are basically guesswork, next?


----------



## Blues Man (Jan 2, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> Apologies, by local, I meant American.


Just more of an illustration that you have no real idea what life here is like .

The US is a big country and the fact is that 70% of all murders in this country take place in well defined depressed urban neighborhoods.  This small number of hyper-violent inner city areas actually skew the murder rates for the entire country.

The drivers of the violence are a lot more complicated than mere gun laws.  The powers that be know where these areas are and have chosen to do nothing about them because for the most part the murders are young minority males killing other young minority males and the cops, politicians and even the population in general just doesn't care about young minority males.

The murder rate for vast swaths of the rest of the country is extremely low but you people all seem to think that it's some homogeneous statistic.  It's not


----------



## Vagabond63 (Jan 2, 2022)

Blues Man said:


> Just more of an illustration that you have no real idea what life here is like .
> 
> The US is a big country and the fact is that 70% of all murders in this country take place in well defined depressed urban neighborhoods.  This small number of hyper-violent inner city areas actually skew the murder rates for the entire country.
> 
> ...


Never said it was, it's the same in the UK. Our gun crimes are almost always gang related. I lived in Nottingham in the early 2000's when the city was dubbed the gun crime capital of the UK, or "Shottingham" in the popular press. Almost all the violence was caused by a gang war between two gangs in two parts of the city St. Anne's and The Meadows. It got so bad that only armed police patrolled those areas. The situation improved when corrupt police were removed and a major crimes task force took out both the gangs. If you believed the popular press, however, Nottingham was awash with guns and had gunfights everywhere. 

Similar situations exist today in many of our major cities, but the answer to such problems is not to make guns freely avaulable to everyone who wants one, To do so, can cause a Saturday night brawl or road rage incident to escalate into something far more deadly.


----------



## Blues Man (Jan 2, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> Never said it was, it's the same in the UK. Our gun crimes are almost always gang related. I lived in Nottingham in the early 2000's when the city was dubbed the gun crime capital of the UK, or "Shottingham" in the popular press. Almost all the violence was caused by a gang war between two gangs in two parts of the city St. Anne's and The Meadows. It got so bad that only armed police patrolled those areas. The situation improved when corrupt police were removed and a major crimes task force took out both the gangs. If you believed the popular press, however, Nottingham was awash with guns and had gunfights everywhere.
> 
> Similar situations exist today in many of our major cities, but the answer to such problems is not to make guns freely avaulable to everyone who wants one, To do so, can cause a Saturday night brawl or road rage incident to escalate into something far more deadly.


Our federal and state guns laws are not designed to give free access to firearms to everyone.

So maybe you should read them.


----------



## Vagabond63 (Jan 2, 2022)

Blues Man said:


> Our federal and state guns laws are not designed to give free access to firearms to everyone.
> 
> So maybe you should read them.


Fair point. "but the answer to such problems is not to make guns freely available to everyone (without a criminal record, dishonourable discharge, or known mental health issue plus a few more minor categories) who wants one." OK? 

Everyone is a "normal law abidding citizen" until they commit a crime, go mad, etc. They only lose any guns in their posession if authorities are aware they have them.


----------



## Blues Man (Jan 2, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> Fair point. "but the answer to such problems is not to make guns freely available to everyone (without a criminal record, dishonourable discharge, or known mental health issue plus a few more minor categories) who wants one." OK?
> 
> Everyone is a "normal law abidding citizen" until they commit a crime, go mad, etc. They only lose any guns in their posession if authorities are aware they have them.



So you're one of those people who think everyone is just a criminal in waiting.

Maybe we should treat all men as rapists since they're not a rapist until they are right?


----------



## Wild Bill Kelsoe (Jan 2, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> Never said it didn't. My point was, you can just as easily have a "well regulated militia" armed with Bows, etc.


No you can't.  Mastering the bow and arrow is much harder than mastering a firearm.


----------



## Cellblock2429 (Jan 2, 2022)

2aguy said:


> Saw this.....and I thought...it's about time we celebrate our ability to exercise our Right to be free from criminal attack, and government tyranny and murder.....
> 
> The anti-gunners here on U.S.messageboard.....believe these people should not be able to own or carry guns....
> 
> ...


/----/ We are not alone: 10 Countries Where Guns Are Legal


----------



## Cellblock2429 (Jan 2, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> Fair point. "but the answer to such problems is not to make guns freely available to everyone (without a criminal record, dishonourable discharge, or known mental health issue plus a few more minor categories) who wants one." OK?
> 
> Everyone is a "normal law abidding citizen" until they commit a crime, go mad, etc. They only lose any guns in their posession if authorities are aware they have them.


/-----/ You are not a drunk driver committing vehicular homicide until you are. Time to give up your car and driver's license. This could be you tomorrow morning driving to work. How can you be so irresponsible?


----------



## 2aguy (Jan 2, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> Blah, blah. Same cut and paste drivel. Extrapolated guesswork based on limited sample "opinion polls", Even your 2021 National Firearms survey clearly states ESTIMATES, estimates are basically guesswork, next?




Funny......research shows us many things about life, yet you are now saying they shoe us nothing...

18-19 independent studies, conducted by both private and government research groups, most, if not all, anti-gun in their beliefs........the studies created by research professionals, trained in research techniques, implemented by trained research professionals....

And you say they are all wrong......

Boy, the dumb is strong with this one....


----------



## 2aguy (Jan 2, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> Fair point. "but the answer to such problems is not to make guns freely available to everyone (without a criminal record, dishonourable discharge, or known mental health issue plus a few more minor categories) who wants one." OK?
> 
> Everyone is a "normal law abidding citizen" until they commit a crime, go mad, etc. They only lose any guns in their posession if authorities are aware they have them.




*Everyone is a "normal law abidding citizen" until they commit a crime, go mad, etc.*


Wrong.....not even close.......our murder is confined to tiny areas, primarily areas controlled by the democrat party....

Murderers are not normal people who have a bad day, they are individuals with long histories of crime and violence....as all research shows....you dipshit......

The Criminology of Firearms


*Christoffel, et al., are utterly wrong. The whole corpus of criminological research dating back to the 1890'sshows murderers "almost uniformly have a long history of involvement in criminal behavior," and that "[v]irtually all" murderers and other gun criminals have prior felony records — generally long ones.*

*While only 15 percent of Americans have criminal records, roughly 90 percent of adult murderers have prior adult records — exclusive of their often extensive juvenile records — with crime careers of six or more adult years including four major felonies. Gerald D. Robin, writing for the Academy of Criminal Justice Sciences,notes that, unlike ordinary gun owners, "the average murderer turns out to be no less hardened a criminal than the average robber or burglar."*
======


27 Statistics That Describe How Criminals Use and Obtain Illegal Firearms - Tier Three Tactical

*The vast majority of violent crime in the US occurs amongst those that live a criminal lifestyle. In fact, this study showed that the average homicide victim, in Boston, over a four year period, had been criminally charged themselves an average of 12 times prior to their death.*

*This doesn’t mean that they are good or bad people, or that they are somehow less deserving of justice, but it does mean they were no strangers to crime themselves. As they say, violence begets violence.

You pull things out of your ass, and think you have deep insight into the issue....*

http://www.haciendapublishing.com/m...art-ii-gun-violence-and-constitutional-issues


*Another favorite view of the gun control, public health establishment is the myth propounded by Dr. Mark Rosenberg, former head of the NCIPC of the CDC, who has written: "Most of the perpetrators of violence are not criminals by trade or profession. Indeed, in the area of domestic violence, most of the perpetrators are never accused of any crime. The victims and perpetrators are ourselves --- ordinary citizens, students, professionals, and even public health workers."(6) *

*That statement is contradicted by available data, government data. The fact is that the typical murderer has had a prior criminal history of at least six years with four felony arrests in his record before he finally commits murder.*


----------



## 2aguy (Jan 2, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> Fair point. "but the answer to such problems is not to make guns freely available to everyone (without a criminal record, dishonourable discharge, or known mental health issue plus a few more minor categories) who wants one." OK?
> 
> Everyone is a "normal law abidding citizen" until they commit a crime, go mad, etc. They only lose any guns in their posession if authorities are aware they have them.




You guys never answer this question....if what you believe is true...how is it possible that as millions and millions of Americans bought, owned, and carried guns for 27 years, the gun murder rate went down 49%....

How do you explain that?


As millions and millions of Americans bought, owned, and carried guns, how is it possible, according to you, that the gun crime rate went down 75%.....

How do you explain that?

Over the last 27 years,  up to the year 2015, we went from 200 million guns in private hands in the 1990s and 4.7 million people carrying guns for self defense in 1997...to close to 400-600 million guns in private hands and over 19.4 million people carrying guns for self defense in 2019...guess what happened...

New Concealed Carry Report For 2020: 19.48 Million Permit Holders, 820,000 More Than Last Year despite many states shutting down issuing permits because of the Coronavirus - Crime Prevention Research Center


-- gun murder down 49%

--gun crime down 75%

--violent crime down 72%

Gun Homicide Rate Down 49% Since 1993 Peak; Public Unaware

*Compared with 1993, the peak of U.S. gun homicides, the firearm homicide rate was 49% lower in 2010, and there were fewer deaths, even though the nation’s population grew. The victimization rate for other violent crimes with a firearm—assaults, robberies and sex crimes—was 75% lower in 2011 than in 1993. Violent non-fatal crime victimization overall (with or without a firearm) also is down markedly (72%) over two decades.*


This means that access to guns does not create gun crime........

Why do our democrat party controlled cities have gun crime problems?

1) the democrat party keeps releasing violent gun offenders...they have created a revolving door for criminals who use guns, and will release even the most serious gun offenders over and over again....why?   Probably because they realise that normal people don't use their guns for crime, so if they want to push gun control, they need criminals to shoot people.....so they keep releasing them....

2)  The democrat party keeps attacking the police.....driving the officers into not doing pro-active policing, cutting detective forces so that murders go unsolved..........


----------



## 2aguy (Jan 2, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> Fair point. "but the answer to such problems is not to make guns freely available to everyone (without a criminal record, dishonourable discharge, or known mental health issue plus a few more minor categories) who wants one." OK?
> 
> Everyone is a "normal law abidding citizen" until they commit a crime, go mad, etc. They only lose any guns in their posession if authorities are aware they have them.




And....since you poked you nose out of your hole......

Answer these questions......

To any women reading these posts.....note that the left wingers like vagabond, do not answer the following questions.........they refuse to answer them because of what they believe....that you being violently beaten, raped and murdered is the better outcome, than they allow you to own and carry a gun to save your life...


*A woman is grabbed by a violent serial rapist at a bus stop, a train platform or in her apartment...he plans on beating, raping and murdering her. She has a gun, and can stop the rape with the gun......

Do you want her to use that gun to stop the rape?

A woman stops an attack with a gun, a brutal rape, torture and murder...in a public space....if you had the ability to go back in time, and prevent her from having that gun...would you?
=====
The British government will not allow a woman to own and carry a gun to prevent being gang raped in a London park.....saying she does not have "good reason," to own the gun.

A member of the House of Lords wants to quail hunt with his rich friends on his private country estate, and the British government gives him the gun....because he has "good reason."

Does this make sense to you?

*


----------



## 2aguy (Jan 2, 2022)

Blues Man said:


> So you're one of those people who think everyone is just a criminal in waiting.
> 
> Maybe we should treat all men as rapists since they're not a rapist until they are right?




Yep....which is why they support totalitarian governments and their investigation techniques....in China, if they suspect a crime has been committed, they don't just scoop up the suspects...they scoop up the neighbors, friends, and family.....and beat them until they find the actual criminals....

This is the world vagabond supports.


----------



## 2aguy (Jan 2, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> Never said it was, it's the same in the UK. Our gun crimes are almost always gang related. I lived in Nottingham in the early 2000's when the city was dubbed the gun crime capital of the UK, or "Shottingham" in the popular press. Almost all the violence was caused by a gang war between two gangs in two parts of the city St. Anne's and The Meadows. It got so bad that only armed police patrolled those areas. The situation improved when corrupt police were removed and a major crimes task force took out both the gangs. If you believed the popular press, however, Nottingham was awash with guns and had gunfights everywhere.
> 
> Similar situations exist today in many of our major cities, but the answer to such problems is not to make guns freely avaulable to everyone who wants one, To do so, can cause a Saturday night brawl or road rage incident to escalate into something far more deadly.




And the gun crime in the U.S. is the same...criminals murdering each other over crime, and insults.

27 years of American experience show you don't know what you are talking about.......as millions and millions of Americans owned and even carried guns in public....the gun murder rate went down, not up....

How do you explain that?

The gun crime rate went down, not up....how do you explain that?

Now, as your criminals become less European and more 3rd world, without the respect for British culture or British laws....and a complete lack of fear of British police as your left wing begins to hamstring your police....calling them racists and such......you are experiencing increasing levels of violence.....

yet you think you are immune to it.......

you are an idiot.


----------



## 2aguy (Jan 2, 2022)

Blues Man said:


> Just more of an illustration that you have no real idea what life here is like .
> 
> The US is a big country and the fact is that 70% of all murders in this country take place in well defined depressed urban neighborhoods.  This small number of hyper-violent inner city areas actually skew the murder rates for the entire country.
> 
> ...




The drivers of our gun violence?

Fatherless homes, which provide gang members and criminals.......fatherless homes create crime, poverty and violence....

Britain is about to learn this lesson as their social welfare system has broken down their family and social systems to the point they can't keep kids out of crime anymore...

The democrat party and their policies then take the fatherless homes, and add the destruction of the police, and the release of known, repeat, violent gun offenders to the mix.....

Those are the factors driving our violent crime rates, not guns....


----------



## Flash (Jan 2, 2022)

2aguy said:


> Celebrating old school....




I have a good buddy that is into cowboy action shooting.  He is in his late 50s and retired and competes with fast draw.  He is one of the top three in the state with fast draw.  He practices for at least three hours every day.  Some days he spends all day long practicing. 

He goes through a ton of ammo.  I help him do his reloads.  He tried practicing with 22s but he says it is not the same as full loads.  He says to be in the top he has to practice like he competes.


----------



## 2aguy (Jan 2, 2022)

Flash said:


> I have a good buddy that is into cowboy action shooting.  He is in his late 50s and retired and competes with fast draw.  He is one of the top three in the state with fast draw.  He practices for at least three hours every day.  Some days he spends all day long practicing.
> 
> He goes through a ton of ammo.  I help him do his reloads.  He tried practicing with 22s but he says it is not the same as full loads.  He says to be in the top he has to practice like he competes.




Yep....never had the interest in devoting that much time to something like that.......


----------



## M14 Shooter (Jan 2, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> Never said it didn't. My point was, you can just as easily have a "well regulated militia" armed with Bows, etc.


Technically, true - but irrelevant.


----------



## M14 Shooter (Jan 2, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> Everyone is a "normal law abidding citizen" until they commit a crime, go mad, etc. They only lose any guns in their posession if authorities are aware they have them.


That's how rights work in a free society - you get to exercise them freely, until such a time you do something that merits their removal.
We do not take guns from people because they might commit a crime for the same reason we do not imprison people because they might commit a crime.


----------



## Vagabond63 (Jan 3, 2022)

Wild Bill Kelsoe said:


> No you can't.  Mastering the bow and arrow is much harder than mastering a firearm.


For some people, perhaps but it's still a valid alternative and a well regulated militia should provide adequate training...


----------



## Vagabond63 (Jan 3, 2022)

Cellblock2429 said:


> /-----/ You are not a drunk driver committing vehicular homicide until you are. Time to give up your car and driver's license. This could be you tomorrow morning driving to work. How can you be so irresponsible?
> View attachment 582658


Ah, yes, that old argument. Cars are not designed to kill people, but to get them from A to B; that's an unfortunate consequence of something going wrong. Guns however only have one function, to kill, so higher standards are necessary in my view.


----------



## Cellblock2429 (Jan 3, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> Ah, yes, that old argument. Cars are not designed to kill people, but to get them from A to B; that's an unfortunate consequence of something going wrong. Guns however only have one function, to kill, so higher standards are necessary in my view.


/——/ Nice spin, gun grabber.  Some cars are used to kill people. Some guns are used for sport and hunting food. What are knives designed for?


----------



## Smokin' OP (Jan 3, 2022)

Cellblock2429 said:


> /——/ Nice spin, gun grabber.  Some cars are used to kill people.


Really?
Which cars would they be?


Cellblock2429 said:


> Some guns are used for sport and hunting food.


But what is the end result?
Do the guns tickle them to get them to climb into your oven or limb up on top of your grill?


Cellblock2429 said:


> What are knives designed for?


Cutting.


----------



## Vagabond63 (Jan 3, 2022)

Blues Man said:


> So you're one of those people who think everyone is just a criminal in waiting.
> 
> Maybe we should treat all men as rapists since they're not a rapist until they are right?


I didn't say that, but ultimately it's a truism because sooner or later we all braek one law or another. Ever jay walked?


----------



## Blues Man (Jan 3, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> I didn't say that, but ultimately it's a truism because sooner or later we all braek one law or another. Ever jay walked?


So then I should just treat you like a murdering piece of shit right?

Maybe we should just revoke your driver's license now because it's only a matter of time before you get shitfaced and kill someone right?

And comparing Jaywalking to murder is beyond stupid.


----------



## Cellblock2429 (Jan 3, 2022)

Smokin' OP said:


> Really?
> Which cars would they be?
> 
> But what is the end result?
> ...


/----/  Here ya go spanky. Now to prevent more murders with cars, take your car to the crusher. QuickStats: Average Number of Deaths from Motor Vehicle Injuries ...


----------



## Cellblock2429 (Jan 3, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> Ah, yes, that old argument. Cars are not designed to kill people, but to get them from A to B; that's an unfortunate consequence of something going wrong. Guns however only have one function, to kill, so higher standards are necessary in my view.


/-----/ Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) shows that more people were murdered with knives (1,515) and “blunt objects” such as hammers (443) than with rifles (297). The numbers also show that fewer people were killed with shotguns (235) than with knives or blunt objects.


----------



## Smokin' OP (Jan 3, 2022)

Cellblock2429 said:


> /----/  Here ya go spanky. Now to prevent more murders with cars, take your car tp teh crusher. QuickStats: Average Number of Deaths from Motor Vehicle Injuries ...
> View attachment 583050


WOW.
I most certainly will take my truck to the crusher when you tell me.

So, WHICH CARS were MADE SPECIFICALLY for KILLING?


----------



## 2aguy (Jan 3, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> Ah, yes, that old argument. Cars are not designed to kill people, but to get them from A to B; that's an unfortunate consequence of something going wrong. Guns however only have one function, to kill, so higher standards are necessary in my view.




Wrong......guns protect people, most of the time without firing a shot, they feed people, they entertain people.......the rapes, robberies, murders, stabbings and beatings they stop are lives saved from death, and also from life shattering trauma........

You really have no idea what you are talking about, but you continue to do so.....


----------



## 2aguy (Jan 3, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> Ah, yes, that old argument. Cars are not designed to kill people, but to get them from A to B; that's an unfortunate consequence of something going wrong. Guns however only have one function, to kill, so higher standards are necessary in my view.




Just about every criminal act, from drug selling to murder involves a car....hard to bury a body, move drugs, or rape without access to transportation....

Carrying a body onto a train is a little awkward.......


----------



## Cellblock2429 (Jan 3, 2022)

Smokin' OP said:


> WOW.
> I most certainly will take my truck to the crusher when you tell me.
> 
> So, WHICH CARS were MADE SPECIFICALLY for KILLING?


/----/ Dead is dead, no matter the brand.


----------



## 2aguy (Jan 3, 2022)

Smokin' OP said:


> WOW.
> I most certainly will take my truck to the crusher when you tell me.
> 
> So, WHICH CARS were MADE SPECIFICALLY for KILLING?




Considering just accidental deaths.......

600 million guns in the U.S.....over 21.5 million Americans actually carry guns in public for self defense....

Accidental gun deaths....2019

486.....in a country of over 330 million people.


Accidental car deaths....2019

39,107

Cars are deadlier in every way.


A rental truck used by a muslim terrorists in Nice, France was used to murder 86 people and wound 435...more killed in 5 minutes of driving than in any mass public shooting in the U.S...'

More killed in that one attack than in all but 2 mass public shootings since 1982....


----------



## 2aguy (Jan 3, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> I didn't say that, but ultimately it's a truism because sooner or later we all braek one law or another. Ever jay walked?




And that is just stupid......murder is not jaywalking.....that you would try that lame attempt is just silly.


----------



## Cellblock2429 (Jan 3, 2022)

2aguy said:


> Just about every criminal act, from drug selling to murder involves a car....hard to bury a body, move drugs, or rape without access to transportation....
> 
> Carrying a body onto a train is a little awkward.......


/----/ Gun grabbing Libs say getting knifed to death in the trunk of a car is OK because they weren't designed to kill.


----------



## Smokin' OP (Jan 3, 2022)

Cellblock2429 said:


> /----/ Dead is dead, no matter the brand.


So, can't answer the question?
Which vehicles are made for killing?

I've killed many animals with my rifles.
Haven't killed anyone with my truck.


----------



## 2aguy (Jan 3, 2022)

Smokin' OP said:


> So, can't answer the question?
> Which vehicles are made for killing?
> 
> I've killed many animals with my rifles.
> Haven't killed anyone with my truck.




All of them.......they kill more people every single year than guns do in the hands of criminals.....


----------



## Wild Bill Kelsoe (Jan 3, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> For some people, perhaps but it's still a valid alternative and a well regulated militia should provide adequate training...


As long as the bad guys have guns, it's a terrible idea.


----------



## Smokin' OP (Jan 3, 2022)

2aguy said:


> Considering just accidental deaths.......
> 
> 600 million guns in the U.S.....over 21.5 million Americans actually carry guns in public for self defense....
> 
> ...


Another Trumptard that thinks cars weren't made for transportation.
They were made for killing.


----------



## Wild Bill Kelsoe (Jan 3, 2022)

Smokin' OP said:


> So, can't answer the question?
> Which vehicles are made for killing?
> 
> I've killed many animals with my rifles.
> Haven't killed anyone with my truck.


Knives are made for killing.  You ready to regulate knife ownership?

Although, ultimately, that's irrelevant if we're talking about protecting lives.  Right?


----------



## Wild Bill Kelsoe (Jan 3, 2022)

Smokin' OP said:


> Another Trumptard that thinks cars weren't made for transportation.
> They were made for killing.


Were hammers made for killing?  What about axes?  Chainsaws?


----------



## 2aguy (Jan 3, 2022)

Smokin' OP said:


> Another Trumptard that thinks cars weren't made for transportation.
> They were made for killing.




Made for killing or not, they kill more people in this country than guns do...all gun deaths combined........they are deadlier than guns, and according to shitheads like you...that means they must be banned and confiscated......


----------



## Smokin' OP (Jan 3, 2022)

2aguy said:


> All of them.......they kill more people every single year than guns do in the hands of criminals.....


Really, moron?
Cars were *made* to kill?

They sure didn't include that in their sale commercials.


----------



## candycorn (Jan 3, 2022)

2aguy said:


> Yeah….we have days for everything else
> We should pick a day and celebrate the 2nd amendment….



Well, it should coincide with a school massacre since the second amendment is what caused every school massacre ever....

There are so many.  Which one would you pick?


----------



## 2aguy (Jan 3, 2022)

Smokin' OP said:


> Really, moron?
> Cars were *made* to kill?
> 
> They sure didn't include that in their sale commercials.




When they kill more people than guns do, they were made to kill.............

They kill more people than guns do and idiots like you tell us guns were made to kill.....

If cars kill more people than guns do...by a lot....than they are deadlier than guns.....


----------



## 2aguy (Jan 3, 2022)

candycorn said:


> Well, it should coincide with a school massacre since the second amendment is what caused every school massacre ever....
> 
> There are so many.  Which one would you pick?




How many?   Out of 137,432 schools in the U.S.......

One school shooting in 2021... 4 killed

0 school shootings in 2020.... 0 killed

0 in 2019............0 killed

2 in 2018....27 killed

0 in 2017......o killed

out of 330 million people, 73 million children.....

Please....enlighten us...

What did all 3 schools have in common?   They were all gun free zones.......created by dumb asses like you.....









						101 American School Statistics: 2020/2021 Data, Trends & Predictions | Research.com
					

All data points, statistics, trends, and predictions presented in this article have been gathered by G2R research team led by Imed Bouchrika, PhD. You are free to quote, share, and distribute the information here for your own purposes without any limitations. Education has always been a top...




					research.com
				





Keep in mind.....

deer kill 200 people a year

Lawn mowers kill 90-100 a year

Bathtubs kill 87 children a year.....

In 5 years 32 children died in school shootings.........87 in one year in bathtubs...


----------



## Smokin' OP (Jan 3, 2022)

Wild Bill Kelsoe said:


> Were hammers made for killing?  What about axes?  Chainsaws?


WTF?
Just how many of Trump's cult, got taken from his correspondence school?

Do people go hunting with a hammer?
Do people go hunting with an ax?
Do people go hunting with a chainsaw?

Outdoor channel should be aware of this.


----------



## candycorn (Jan 3, 2022)

2aguy said:


> How many?   Out of 137,432 schools in the U.S.......
> 
> One school shooting in 2021... 4 killed
> 
> ...



You seem to have missed the question.

Which school shooting are you going to celebrate?  There is Columbine, Sandy Hook, Marjorie Stoneman Douglass, Virginia Tech, and hundreds more.  Surely you can pick one to celebrate the effects of the second amendment without some nonsensical cherry picking of stats.

Hell, the 2nd Amendment has caused so many school massacres that the folks at Wikipedia have had to divide the carnage up into two different pages:





__





						List of school shootings in the United States (before 2000) - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org
				








__





						List of school shootings in the United States - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org
				




Pick a date and get back to us....


----------



## Wild Bill Kelsoe (Jan 3, 2022)

Smokin' OP said:


> WTF?
> Just how many of Trump's cult, got taken from his correspondence school?
> 
> Do people go hunting with a hammer?
> ...


Explain how any of that is relevant...lol

You anti-gunners make some absolutely shitty arguments in favor of banning guns.


----------



## Smokin' OP (Jan 3, 2022)

2aguy said:


> When they kill more people than guns do, they were made to kill.............


Really?
So, which one should I take to the woods, I'll leave my rifle at the house.


2aguy said:


> They kill more people than guns do and idiots like you tell us guns were made to kill.....


That's what I primarily use for hunting to kill an animal.
I never thought about killing on my way to Walmart, you imbecile.


2aguy said:


> If cars kill more people than guns do...by a lot....than they are deadlier than guns.....


So, cars are a necessity, they built highways and roads........................to kill people?

Trump really loves you.


----------



## 2aguy (Jan 3, 2022)

candycorn said:


> You seem to have missed the question.
> 
> Which school shooting are you going to celebrate?  There is Columbine, Sandy Hook, Marjorie Stoneman Douglass, Virginia Tech, and hundreds more.  Surely you can pick one to celebrate the effects of the second amendment without some nonsensical cherry picking of stats.
> 
> ...




We do not celebrate school shootings, or any other unlawful use of guns against the innocent...

You, and your ilk, rejoice in each shooting, dance on the bodies of dead children and smear their blood all over yourselves.......school shootings serve you and your quest to ban and confiscate guns..........

Look in the mirror....you are the cause of school shootings with your gun free zones.....


----------



## 2aguy (Jan 3, 2022)

Smokin' OP said:


> Really?
> So, which one should I take to the woods, I'll leave my rifle at the house.
> 
> That's what I primarily use for hunting to kill an animal.
> ...




Rapes, robberies, murders, stabbings, beatings, mass public shootings, genocide.....stopped by guns.....they save far more lives than they take.....

Without guns, you and your idiots would have begun to fill mass graves again....


----------



## Smokin' OP (Jan 3, 2022)

Wild Bill Kelsoe said:


> Explain how any of that is relevant...lol


You tell me.

'Were hammers made for killing? What about axes? Chainsaws'?


Wild Bill Kelsoe said:


> You anti-gunners make some absolutely shitty arguments in favor of banning guns.


NOT anti-gun, idiot, I have some myself.
For 30 years you morons claim someone is going to ban your guns, when did it happen?
When is it going to happen?
You morons believe it every time.

I really want to know, having guns for well over 40 years, not even once has someone threatened to take them away.

Then you morons go out and purchase more of what you're convinced.............are going to be banned.


----------



## Smokin' OP (Jan 3, 2022)

2aguy said:


> Rapes, robberies, murders, stabbings, beatings, mass public shootings, genocide.....stopped by guns.....they save far more lives than they take.....
> 
> Without guns, you and your idiots would have begun to fill mass graves again....


You're FOS.
A LOT more committed with guns than prevented with guns, moron.


----------



## 2aguy (Jan 3, 2022)

Smokin' OP said:


> You tell me.
> 
> 'Were hammers made for killing? What about axes? Chainsaws'?
> 
> ...




The left always wants guns for themselves...just not the people they plan on oppressing and killling.


----------



## 2aguy (Jan 3, 2022)

Smokin' OP said:


> You're FOS.
> A LOT more committed with guns than prevented with guns, moron.



Wrong....

Guns are used 1.1 million times a year to stop rape, robbery, murder, beatings, stabbings, even mass public shootings.....according to the CDC...

1.5 million according to the Dept. of Justice....

1.67 million times a year according to the 2021 Firearms survey...

Guns in 2019 were used to murder 10,258 times.


Can you tell which number is bigger?


----------



## Smokin' OP (Jan 3, 2022)

2aguy said:


> The left always wants guns for themselves...just not the people they plan on oppressing and killling.


Yeah, pretty much.
Having morons who, evidently cant shoot, who needs 100 rounds of ammo to wound a turtle is dangerous for everyone.


----------



## Smokin' OP (Jan 3, 2022)

2aguy said:


> Wrong....
> 
> Guns are used 1.1 million times a year to stop rape, robbery, murder, beatings, stabbings, even mass public shootings.....according to the CDC...


You're FOS.
The CDC stopped issuing that data in the 90's.


2aguy said:


> 1.5 million according to the Dept. of Justice....
> 
> 1.67 million times a year according to the 2021 Firearms survey...


A survey?


2aguy said:


> Guns in 2019 were used to murder 10,258 times.


Again. FOS.

In the United States, more than seven people per hour die a violent death. In 2019, more than 19,100 people were victims of homicide and over 47,500 people died by suicide.


2aguy said:


> Can you tell which number is bigger?


----------



## 2aguy (Jan 3, 2022)

Smokin' OP said:


> You're FOS.
> The CDC stopped issuing that data in the 90's.
> 
> A survey?
> ...




Suicides don't count, dipshit........

10,258 were killed with guns in 2019, 23,941 committed suicide with guns...but again, the suicides don't count.

The CDC hid their gun self defense research since it was getting too close to Kleck's numbers.....the Department of Justice found 1.5 million .....and here are the rest of the studies...

A quick guide to the studies and the numbers.....the full lay out of what was studied by each study is in the links....

The name of the group doing the study, the year of the study, the number of defensive gun uses and if police and military defensive gun uses are included.....notice the bill clinton and obama defensive gun use research is highlighted.....

GunCite-Gun Control-How Often Are Guns Used in Self-Defense 

GunCite Frequency of Defensive Gun Use in Previous Surveys

Field...1976....3,052,717 ( no cops, no military)

DMIa 1978...2,141,512 ( no cops, no military)

L.A. TIMES...1994...3,609,68 ( no cops, no military)

Kleck......1994...2.5 million ( no cops, no military)

2021 national firearm survey, Prof. William English, PhD. designed by Deborah Azrael of Harvard T. Chan School of public policy, and  Mathew Miller, Northeastern university.......1.67 million defensive uses annually.

CDC...1996-1998... 1.1 million  averaged over  those years.( no cops, no military)

Obama's CDC....2013....500,000--3million

--------------------


Bordua...1977...1,414,544

DMIb...1978...1,098,409 ( no cops, no military)

Hart...1981...1.797,461 ( no cops, no military)

Mauser...1990...1,487,342 ( no cops,no military)

Gallup...1993...1,621,377 ( no cops, no military)

DEPT. OF JUSTICE...1994...1.5 million ( the bill clinton study)

Journal of Quantitative Criminology--- 989,883 times per year."

(Based on survey data from a 2000 study published in the _Journal of Quantitative Criminology_,[17] U.S. civilians use guns to defend themselves and others from crime at least 989,883 times per year.[18])

Paper: "Measuring Civilian Defensive Firearm Use: A Methodological Experiment." By David McDowall and others. _Journal of Quantitative Criminology_, March 2000. Measuring Civilian Defensive Firearm Use: A Methodological Experiment - Springer


-------------------------------------------

Ohio...1982...771,043

Gallup...1991...777,152

Tarrance... 1994... 764,036 (no cops, no military)

Lawerence Southwich Jr. 400,000 fewer violent crimes and at least 800,000 violent crimes deterred..

*2021 national firearms survey..*

The survey was designed by Deborah Azrael of the Harvard T.H. Chan School of Public Health, and Matthew Miller of Northeastern University,
----
The survey further finds that approximately a third of gun owners (31.1%) have used a firearm to defend themselves or their property, often on more than one occasion, and it estimates that guns are used defensively by firearms owners in approximately 1.67 million incidents per year. Handguns are the most common firearm employed for self-defense (used in 65.9% of defensive incidents), and in most defensive incidents (81.9%) no shot was fired. Approximately a quarter (25.2%) of defensive incidents occurred within the gun owner's home, and approximately half (53.9%) occurred outside their home, but on their property. About one out of ten (9.1%) defensive gun uses occurred in public, and about one out of twenty (4.8%) occurred at work.
2021 National Firearms Survey


----------



## Wild Bill Kelsoe (Jan 3, 2022)

Smokin' OP said:


> You tell me.
> 
> 'Were hammers made for killing? What about axes? Chainsaws'?
> 
> ...


Anyone who supports gun control supports banning guns.  Either intentionally, or out of stupidity.


----------



## Captain Caveman (Jan 3, 2022)

2aguy said:


> Saw this.....and I thought...it's about time we celebrate our ability to exercise our Right to be free from criminal attack, and government tyranny and murder.....
> 
> The anti-gunners here on U.S.messageboard.....believe these people should not be able to own or carry guns....
> 
> ...


Handkerchiefs and baby oil at the ready guys.


----------



## M14 Shooter (Jan 3, 2022)

Smokin' OP said:


> Again. FOS.


The FBI agrees with him.  How is he wrong?








Smokin' OP said:


> In 2019, more than 19,100 people were victims of homicide


The FBI disagrees with you. (see above).  How are you right?


----------



## M14 Shooter (Jan 3, 2022)

Smokin' OP said:


> A LOT more committed with guns than prevented with guns, moron.


Prove this to be true.


----------



## M14 Shooter (Jan 3, 2022)

Smokin' OP said:


> For 30 years you morons claim someone is going to ban your guns, when did it happen?
> When is it going to happen?
> You morons believe it every time.


Democrats routinely run on banning guns; some run on banning and confiscating guns.
Almost all of them run on making it harder for the law abiding to exercise their right to keep and bear arms
Are they lying about what they want to do?


----------



## candycorn (Jan 3, 2022)

2aguy said:


> We do not celebrate school shootings, or any other unlawful use of guns against the innocent...
> 
> You, and your ilk, rejoice in each shooting, dance on the bodies of dead children and smear their blood all over yourselves.......school shootings serve you and your quest to ban and confiscate guns..........
> 
> Look in the mirror....you are the cause of school shootings with your gun free zones.....



Well, the 2nd Amendment is the only reason the school massacres take place....  Sorry that hurts your feelings but it is 100% true.  Thought and prayers.


----------



## M14 Shooter (Jan 3, 2022)

candycorn said:


> Well, the 2nd Amendment is the only reason the school massacres take place....


^^^
This is a lie


----------



## candycorn (Jan 3, 2022)

M14 Shooter said:


> ^^^
> This is a lie


Meanwhile back in reality....

other nations don't have dozens and dozens of school massacres.


----------



## 2aguy (Jan 3, 2022)

candycorn said:


> Meanwhile back in reality....
> 
> other nations don't have dozens and dozens of school massacres.




Neither have we.......one every couple of years isn't the problem you shitheads want it to be...considering cars kill more children than all forms of gun violence and accidents to....

Do you sacrifice to your god, "government" for the next school shooting to happen?


----------



## 2aguy (Jan 3, 2022)

candycorn said:


> Well, the 2nd Amendment is the only reason the school massacres take place....  Sorry that hurts your feelings but it is 100% true.  Thought and prayers.




31 kids killed in school shooting frome 2016-2021........

Kids killed in cars? 12,315

Hmmmm.....

Cars kill more children than guns do in school shootings, and every other form of unlawful gun use....

So we need to ban cars...right?


Your ability to own a private car ends with the death of one child....right?









						US mass shootings, 1982–2022: Data from Mother Jones’ investigation
					

The full data set from our in-depth investigation into mass shootings.




					www.motherjones.com
				








__





						WISQARS (Web-based Injury Statistics Query and Reporting System)|Injury Center|CDC
					

WISQARS (Web-based Injury Statistics Query and Reporting System) is an interactive database system that provides customized reports of injury-related data.




					www.cdc.gov


----------



## 2aguy (Jan 3, 2022)

candycorn said:


> Meanwhile back in reality....
> 
> other nations don't have dozens and dozens of school massacres.




You are an idiot....from Mother Jones, mass public shooting tracker data base....so far...

*School shootings...

2021....1
2020....0
2019....0
2018.....2
2017....0
2016...0
2015....1 (community college)
2014...1
2013.....0
2012....2
2011....0
2010...0









						US mass shootings, 1982–2022: Data from Mother Jones’ investigation
					

The full data set from our in-depth investigation into mass shootings.




					www.motherjones.com
				



*


----------



## candycorn (Jan 3, 2022)

2aguy said:


> You are an idiot....from Mother Jones, mass public shooting tracker data base....so far...
> 
> *School shootings...
> 
> ...



Nope...














						School shootings are becoming more frequent, after a lull during the pandemic.
					

The deadly gunfire in Oxford, Mich., added one more episode to a growing list of fatal shootings on school property in the United States this year.




					www.nytimes.com


----------



## candycorn (Jan 3, 2022)

2aguy said:


> one every couple of years isn't the problem


Unless you're the parent of one of the victims of the 2nd Amendment...then it becomes a problem.

Or do you think all of these parents are Crisis Actors too?


----------



## Man of Ethics (Jan 3, 2022)

One picture is worth a thousand words.


----------



## 2aguy (Jan 3, 2022)

candycorn said:


> Nope...
> 
> View attachment 583341
> 
> ...



Wrong.   The sources you use include gang shootings when the school is closed and guys who shoot themselves in the parking lot on the weekend.

Actual school shootings where an individual targets the school are documented at Mother Jones.

And there were maybe 5 in 5 years or more


----------



## 2aguy (Jan 3, 2022)

candycorn said:


> Nope...
> 
> View attachment 583341
> 
> ...



The clue that your source is stupid?  It says fatal shootings on school property, not attacks on school property……..and since your link is behind a paywall you can’t show us what they mean.

The gun violence archive lies like you do…..including shootings that happen across the street from schools and when the school is actually closed


----------



## candycorn (Jan 3, 2022)

2aguy said:


> Weong.   The sources you use include gang shootings when the school is closed and guys who shoot themselves in the parking lot on the weekend.
> 
> Actual school shootings where an individual targets the school are documented at Mother Jones.
> 
> And there were maybe 5 in 5 years or more



More Nonsense....


----------



## candycorn (Jan 3, 2022)

2aguy said:


> You are an idiot....from Mother Jones, mass public shooting tracker data base....so far...
> 
> *School shootings...
> 
> ...



You said there were no school shootings in 2017.

Please explain why you ignore these shootings.









						Aztec High School shooting - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org
				












						Rancho Tehama shootings - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org
				












						Freeman High School (Washington) - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org


----------



## Smokin' OP (Jan 4, 2022)

2aguy said:


> Suicides don't count, dipshit........


They aren't, numbnuts.
Another Trumptard who can't read.

'In the United States, more than seven people per hour die a violent death. In 2019, more than 19,100 people were victims of homicide and over 47,500 people died by suicide'.

Ignoring the *and* part?


2aguy said:


> 10,258 were killed with guns in 2019, 23,941 committed suicide with guns...but again, the suicides don't count.
> 
> The CDC hid their gun self defense research since it was getting too close to Kleck's numbers.....the Department of Justice found 1.5 million .....and here are the rest of the studies...


So, that's where you're getting your BS from?

 Gary Kleck, a Florida State University criminologist, also ignores the fact that his results repeatedly fail tests of external validity. In our original article, we mention that Kleck’s data would require, impossibly, that gun owners use their gun in self-defense in more than 100 percent of burglaries.
Kleck’s data also suggests that every year hundreds of thousands of criminals are shot by law-abiding citizens. But where are the hospital records to validate this claim? 
 Kleck insists, with no medical knowledge and without citing a single study, that the vast majority of these criminals never seek hospital treatment, a claim scoffed at by medical professionals.

Kleck concludes his article by saying we “have not offered any new criticisms” and, like Dr. Hemenway before us, do “not once cite the one thing that could legitimately cast doubt on our estimates—better empirical evidence.” However, had he read the second page of our column, he would have seen that the entire point of our article was to highlight new empirical evidence debunking Kleck’s claims.

Here are the facts Kleck missed: According to his own survey more than 50 percent of respondents claim to have reported their defensive gun use to the police. 
This means we should find at least half of his 2.5 million annual Defensive Gun Uses (DGUs) in police reports alone. Instead, the most comprehensive nonpartisan effort to catalog police and media reports on DGUs by The Gun Violence Archive was barely able to find 1,600 in 2014. 
 Where are the remaining 99.94 percent of Kleck’s supposed DGUs hiding?

Like I stated..................a survey.


2aguy said:


> A quick guide to the studies and the numbers.....the full lay out of what was studied by each study is in the links....
> 
> The name of the group doing the study, the year of the study, the number of defensive gun uses and if police and military defensive gun uses are included.....notice the bill clinton and obama defensive gun use research is highlighted.....
> 
> ...


Sure................ANOTHER survey.

In May 1994 by ABC News and the Washington Post.  One question asked: "Have you yourself ever seen anything that you believe was a spacecraft from another planet?"  10% of respondents answered in the affirmative. These 150 individuals were then asked, "Have you personally ever been in contact with aliens from another planet or not?" and 6% answered "Yes."

By extrapolating to the national population, we might conclude that almost 20 million Americans have seen spacecraft from another planet, and over a million have been in personal contact with aliens from other planets.


----------



## Vagabond63 (Jan 4, 2022)

Blues Man said:


> So then I should just treat you like a murdering piece of shit right?
> 
> Maybe we should just revoke your driver's license now because it's only a matter of time before you get shitfaced and kill someone right?
> 
> And comparing Jaywalking to murder is beyond stupid.


Not at all, but you should take reasonable precautions in case I might one day turn murderous or get drunk and drive. Requiring training and background testing is, in my view, the bare minimum requirements before allowing anyone to get a firearm. In the UK you had to be a member of a gun club or similar for a time before you could apply for a firearms certificate. This requirement gave the club time to train you in safe practices and to evaluate your state of mind (UK clubs were interviewed by police when you applied). That plus your medical records proved you were safe enough to own a gun. Yes the system wasn't perfect and a few nutcases fell through, but nevertheless our system produced about 1 mass shooting every decade, The USA seems to have one every week, somewhere.
Oh, I wasn't comparing Jaywalking to murder, you did.


----------



## Smokin' OP (Jan 4, 2022)

Wild Bill Kelsoe said:


> Anyone who supports gun control supports banning guns.  Either intentionally, or out of stupidity.


So, we should allow people to have Tommy Guns, RPG's, shotguns with 5-inch barrels and silencers?


----------



## Vagabond63 (Jan 4, 2022)

Cellblock2429 said:


> /-----/ Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) shows that more people were murdered with knives (1,515) and “blunt objects” such as hammers (443) than with rifles (297). The numbers also show that fewer people were killed with shotguns (235) than with knives or blunt objects.


So rifles and shotguns, but I see you omitted handguns from your statistics, cherrypicking?


----------



## Vagabond63 (Jan 4, 2022)

2aguy said:


> guns protect people, most of the time without firing a shot, they feed people, they entertain people.......the rapes, robberies, murders, stabbings and beatings they stop are lives saved from death, and also from life shattering trauma.....


Oh good grief, I could equally state that guns protect and feed deranged psychopaths and sociopaths, rapists, robbers. The lives taken by guns cause life shattering trauma.


----------



## Smokin' OP (Jan 4, 2022)

M14 Shooter said:


> The FBI agrees with him.  How is he wrong?
> 
> View attachment 583179
> 
> ...


No, they don't.

In America, an estimated 16,425 people were murdered in 2019. This was a 0.3% increase from the 2018 estimate.

Here are murder rates in 65 major U.S. cities (cities with greater than 100,000 residents) for 2019. These rates are calculated using the latest statistics available — the FBI's 2019 Crime in the United States data, as well as data culled directly from city police officials and the U.S. Census Bureau.

While the initial release of the NCHS preliminary data did not provide a total number of homicides from 2020, the FBI's Uniform Crime Report recorded about 21,570 murders total last year -- compared with an estimated 16,425 murders in 2019.
The NCHS researchers plan to conduct follow-up analyses on the new homicide data for more insight into state-level data and how the homicides occurred. For instance, the provisional data do not document the various mechanisms of homicide, but the researchers noted that provisional data on gun-related deaths also increased last year, climbing from a rate of 11.9 firearm deaths per 100,000 in 2019 to 13.6 per 100,000 in 2020 -- a 14% increase.


----------



## Smokin' OP (Jan 4, 2022)

candycorn said:


> You said there were no school shootings in 2017.
> 
> Please explain why you ignore these shootings.
> 
> ...


Good, I'll pass the mantle on to you.

I've had enough of these two idiots.

Good luck.


----------



## candycorn (Jan 4, 2022)

Smokin' OP said:


> Good, I'll pass the mantle on to you.
> 
> I've had enough of these two idiots.
> 
> Good luck.



I've been debating these guys for years.  They offer nothing except the failed boilerplate "logic" that delivered us to this shameful place in our history where massacres via firearms are acceptable.  Here is what I want to know....since 1776 or 1781--whichever date you want to use, how many nations have had revolutions?  Probably dozens and dozens if not hundreds.  You know how many looked at our 2nd Amendment and said, "yeah we need one of those"?  None.  And they seem to be getting along just fine in most of these nations with zero fear of their governments rounding up people for shits and giggles--the "fear" that they have here that as soon as they give up their bazooka...Uncle Sam is going to encroach on their rights.  Fear is all they have to offer which is really the one thing they swear they are not--scared little boys who think their guns will ensure their safety when statistics show that the inverse is true more often than not.


----------



## Vagabond63 (Jan 4, 2022)

Smokin' OP said:


> Good, I'll pass the mantle on to you.
> 
> I've had enough of these two idiots.
> 
> Good luck.


That's what they rely on, fatigue. They just carry on copy pasting their BS or generally spouting drivel hoping their "opponents" (as they see them) give up in disgust and walk away. Anyway, thanks for your input.


----------



## Smokin' OP (Jan 4, 2022)

candycorn said:


> I've been debating these guys for years.  They offer nothing except the failed boilerplate "logic" that delivered us to this shameful place in our history where massacres via firearms are acceptable.  Here is what I want to know....since 1776 or 1781--whichever date you want to use, how many nations have had revolutions?  Probably dozens and dozens if not hundreds.  You know how many looked at our 2nd Amendment and said, "yeah we need one of those"?  None.


Just like communist healthcare.
If our current system is as great as the authoritarian party claims it is, why aren't dozens of countries waiting in line to adopt the US healthcare system?

The authoritarian party did try to get Russians to join a gun rights club, all they did was invite a Russian spy, to join their group.


candycorn said:


> And they seem to be getting along just fine in most of these nations with zero fear of their governments rounding up people for shits and giggles--the "fear" that they have here that as soon as they give up their bazooka...Uncle Sam is going to encroach on their rights.  Fear is all they have to offer which is really the one thing they swear they are not--scared little boys who think their guns will ensure their safety when statistics show that the inverse is true more often than not.


Correct.
IDK, what they're thinking.

Good luck with the morons.


----------



## Blues Man (Jan 4, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> Not at all, but you should take reasonable precautions in case I might one day turn murderous or get drunk and drive. Requiring training and background testing is, in my view, the bare minimum requirements before allowing anyone to get a firearm. In the UK you had to be a member of a gun club or similar for a time before you could apply for a firearms certificate. This requirement gave the club time to train you in safe practices and to evaluate your state of mind (UK clubs were interviewed by police when you applied). That plus your medical records proved you were safe enough to own a gun. Yes the system wasn't perfect and a few nutcases fell through, but nevertheless our system produced about 1 mass shooting every decade, The USA seems to have one every week, somewhere.
> Oh, I wasn't comparing Jaywalking to murder, you did.


Right so you should not be allowed to drive because who knows when you'll get behind the wheel drunk.  You could drink at home where no one is able to evaluate your ability to drive.  Maybe you should have to call a cop every time you want to drive so he can give you a sobriety test.

You should not be around kids unless supervised because who knows when you'll decide to bugger one of them

And the US is not the UK and it will never be the UK so what you want Americans to do is irrelevant and the fact is that only an extremely small number of people who legally own guns commit murder.

I know it must be strange to you that we don't blame everyone for the crimes of a few people.


----------



## Vagabond63 (Jan 4, 2022)

Blues Man said:


> I know it must be strange to you that we don't blame everyone for the crimes of a few people.


Don't you? Many posters on this site appear to blame all Muslims for 9/11, forgetting or ignoring the fact that that atrocity was carried out by Saudis.


----------



## Vagabond63 (Jan 4, 2022)

Blues Man said:


> And the US is not the UK and it will never be the UK so what you want Americans to do is irrelevant


Personally, I don't care that much what goes on across the pond unless it is likely to affect me personally. As I've stated earlier and elsewhere, I feel obliged to comment when someone claims our gun control system doesn't work, therefore, by their logic, nothing should be done about the daily gun killings and woundings that appear to go on in your country.


----------



## NoNukes (Jan 4, 2022)

2aguy said:


> Saw this.....and I thought...it's about time we celebrate our ability to exercise our Right to be free from criminal attack, and government tyranny and murder.....
> 
> The anti-gunners here on U.S.messageboard.....believe these people should not be able to own or carry guns....
> 
> ...


The rest of the world surrendered it for good reasons. Americans are too thick to see this.


----------



## Blues Man (Jan 4, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> Don't you? Many posters on this site appear to blame all Muslims for 9/11, forgetting or ignoring the fact that that atrocity was carried out by Saudis.


No I don't.  9\11 was motivated by the US's constant meddling in the Middle East and not by religion

You certainly do blame everyone for the crimes of others though.


----------



## Blues Man (Jan 4, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> Personally, I don't care that much what goes on across the pond unless it is likely to affect me personally. As I've stated earlier and elsewhere, I feel obliged to comment when someone claims our gun control system doesn't work, therefore, by their logic, nothing should be done about the daily gun killings and woundings that appear to go on in your country.


The fact is all your gun control didn't change your murder or crime rates at all.

The fact is we have more guns in the hands of the public than ever before and our murder rate is virtually the same as it was 50 years ago.


----------



## M14 Shooter (Jan 4, 2022)

Relative Ethics said:


> One picture is worth a thousand words.


As you know...
For every gun used to commit murder, >10 are used in self-defense
For every gun used to commit suicide, >5 are used in self-0defense


----------



## M14 Shooter (Jan 4, 2022)

Smokin' OP said:


> No, they don't.
> In America, an estimated 16,425 people were murdered in 2019. This was a 0.3% increase from the 2018 estimate.


The FBI said 13,927, down from 2016 2017 and 2018.
How are they wrong?


----------



## M14 Shooter (Jan 4, 2022)

Smokin' OP said:


> So, we should allow people to have Tommy Guns, RPG's, shotguns with 5-inch barrels and silencers?


These are all legal to own in the US.


----------



## M14 Shooter (Jan 4, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> As I've stated earlier and elsewhere, I feel obliged to comment when someone claims our gun control system doesn't work...


Mostly, people note that the claim your system -does- work is a _post-hoc_ fallacy.
And they're right, as you, personally, collectively, and repeatedly, have failed to demonstrate the necessary relationship between the gun laws in the UK and the lower rate of gun-related crime in the UK.


Vagabond63 said:


> therefore, by their logic, nothing should be done about the daily gun killings and woundings that appear to go on in your country.


Fallacy: _Non-seq_.   No one argues this, and nothing in my argument, above, necessitates this.

What should -never- be done to address the number of gun-related "killings and woundings" in the US is to lay unnecessary and ineffective restrictions on the exercise of the right to keep and bear arms by the law abiding.


----------



## Smokin' OP (Jan 4, 2022)

M14 Shooter said:


> These are all legal to own in the US.


YES, they are.
NOT without a background check and a license.

We've been over this.


----------



## M14 Shooter (Jan 4, 2022)

Smokin' OP said:


> YES, they are.


And so, the answer to your question:
_So, we should allow people to have Tommy Guns, RPG's, shotguns with 5-inch barrels and silencers?       _
Is "yes".


> NOT without a background check and a license.


You need neither to own this.


----------



## 2aguy (Jan 4, 2022)

Smokin' OP said:


> They aren't, numbnuts.
> Another Trumptard who can't read.
> 
> 'In the United States, more than seven people per hour die a violent death. In 2019, more than 19,100 people were victims of homicide and over 47,500 people died by suicide'.
> ...



You morons keep trying to lie about Kleck, but everytime anti-gun researchers try to refute him with their own studies they come back with almost the same numbers....

You guys focus on Kleck in the hope people will not notice the 18 other studies that show the same thing Kleck found....here...

A quick guide to the studies and the numbers.....the full lay out of what was studied by each study is in the links....

The name of the group doing the study, the year of the study, the number of defensive gun uses and if police and military defensive gun uses are included.....notice the bill clinton and obama defensive gun use research is highlighted.....

GunCite-Gun Control-How Often Are Guns Used in Self-Defense 

GunCite Frequency of Defensive Gun Use in Previous Surveys

Field...1976....3,052,717 ( no cops, no military)

DMIa 1978...2,141,512 ( no cops, no military)

L.A. TIMES...1994...3,609,68 ( no cops, no military)

Kleck......1994...2.5 million ( no cops, no military)

2021 national firearm survey, Prof. William English, PhD. designed by Deborah Azrael of Harvard T. Chan School of public policy, and  Mathew Miller, Northeastern university.......1.67 million defensive uses annually.

CDC...1996-1998... 1.1 million  averaged over  those years.( no cops, no military)

Obama's CDC....2013....500,000--3million

--------------------


Bordua...1977...1,414,544

DMIb...1978...1,098,409 ( no cops, no military)

Hart...1981...1.797,461 ( no cops, no military)

Mauser...1990...1,487,342 ( no cops,no military)

Gallup...1993...1,621,377 ( no cops, no military)

DEPT. OF JUSTICE...1994...1.5 million ( the bill clinton study)

Journal of Quantitative Criminology--- 989,883 times per year."

(Based on survey data from a 2000 study published in the _Journal of Quantitative Criminology_,[17] U.S. civilians use guns to defend themselves and others from crime at least 989,883 times per year.[18])

Paper: "Measuring Civilian Defensive Firearm Use: A Methodological Experiment." By David McDowall and others. _Journal of Quantitative Criminology_, March 2000. Measuring Civilian Defensive Firearm Use: A Methodological Experiment - Springer


-------------------------------------------

Ohio...1982...771,043

Gallup...1991...777,152

Tarrance... 1994... 764,036 (no cops, no military)

Lawerence Southwich Jr. 400,000 fewer violent crimes and at least 800,000 violent crimes deterred..

*2021 national firearms survey..*

The survey was designed by Deborah Azrael of the Harvard T.H. Chan School of Public Health, and Matthew Miller of Northeastern University,
----
The survey further finds that approximately a third of gun owners (31.1%) have used a firearm to defend themselves or their property, often on more than one occasion, and it estimates that guns are used defensively by firearms owners in approximately 1.67 million incidents per year. Handguns are the most common firearm employed for self-defense (used in 65.9% of defensive incidents), and in most defensive incidents (81.9%) no shot was fired. Approximately a quarter (25.2%) of defensive incidents occurred within the gun owner's home, and approximately half (53.9%) occurred outside their home, but on their property. About one out of ten (9.1%) defensive gun uses occurred in public, and about one out of twenty (4.8%) occurred at work.
2021 National Firearms Survey


----------



## 2aguy (Jan 4, 2022)

Smokin' OP said:


> They aren't, numbnuts.
> Another Trumptard who can't read.
> 
> 'In the United States, more than seven people per hour die a violent death. In 2019, more than 19,100 people were victims of homicide and over 47,500 people died by suicide'.
> ...




Shit head....

This means we should find at least half of his 2.5 million annual Defensive Gun Uses (DGUs) in police reports alone. Instead, the most comprehensive nonpartisan effort to catalog police and media reports on DGUs by The Gun Violence Archive was barely able to find 1,600 in 2014.

*Most of the defensive gun uses did not involve even firing the gun....you moron...which means the criminal ran off, or surrendered .........and in most of those cases, the police would not have even recorded the use of a gun, you idiot....*

*This shows how deceptive you idiots are....*


----------



## 2aguy (Jan 4, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> Not at all, but you should take reasonable precautions in case I might one day turn murderous or get drunk and drive. Requiring training and background testing is, in my view, the bare minimum requirements before allowing anyone to get a firearm. In the UK you had to be a member of a gun club or similar for a time before you could apply for a firearms certificate. This requirement gave the club time to train you in safe practices and to evaluate your state of mind (UK clubs were interviewed by police when you applied). That plus your medical records proved you were safe enough to own a gun. Yes the system wasn't perfect and a few nutcases fell through, but nevertheless our system produced about 1 mass shooting every decade, The USA seems to have one every week, somewhere.
> Oh, I wasn't comparing Jaywalking to murder, you did.



We don't have one every week, you lying asshole....

Every mass public shooting in the United States going back to 1982.....documented by extreme, left wing, extreme, anti-gun, Mother Jones....

US mass shootings, 1982–2021: Data from Mother Jones’ investigation

Dating back to at least 2005, the FBI and leading criminologists essentially defined a mass shooting as a single attack in a public place in which four or more victims were killed. We adopted that baseline for fatalities when we gathered data in 2012 on three decades worth of cases. 
-------


Here is a description of the criteria we use:

The perpetrator took the lives of at least four people. A 2008 FBI report identifies an individual as a mass murderer—versus a spree killer or a serial killer—if he kills four or more people in a single incident (not including himself), typically in a single location. (*In 2013, the US government’s fatality baseline was revised down to three; our database reflects this change beginning from Jan. 2013, as detailed above.)
The killings were carried out by a lone shooter. (Except in the case of the Columbine massacre and the Westside Middle School killings, which involved two shooters.)
The shootings occurred in a public place. (Except in the case of a party on private property in Crandon, Wisconsin, and another in Seattle, where crowds of strangers had gathered, essentially constituting a public crowd.)* Crimes primarily related to gang activity or armed robbery are not included, nor are mass killings that took place in private homes (often stemming from domestic violence).*
Perpetrators who died or were wounded during the attack are not included in the victim tallies.
We included a handful of cases also known as “spree killings“—cases in which the killings occurred in more than one location, but still over a short period of time, that otherwise fit the above criteria.
----------------------
Our research focused on indiscriminate rampages in public places resulting in four or more victims killed by the attacker. We exclude shootings stemming from more conventionally motivated crimes such as armed robbery or gang violence. (Or in which the perpetrators have not been identified.) Other news outlets and researchers have since published larger tallies that include a wide range of gun crimes in which four or more people have been either wounded or killed. While those larger datasets of multiple-victim shootings are useful for studying the broader problem of gun violence, our investigation provides an in-depth look at a distinct phenomenon—from the firearms used and mental health factors to the growing copycat problem. Tracking mass shootings is complex; we believe ours is the most useful approach for studying this specific phenomenon.



---------
The actual number of mass shootings from Mother Jones......

Here you go...the number of mass public shootings according to Mother Jones...rabid, anti gun, left wing news source.....not the NRA...

The list below comes from the old definition of 4 killed to make a shooting a mass shooting...if you now go to the link there are more than listed below...but that is because Mother Jones changed the list from the time I first posted it...and changed to obama's new standard of only 3 dead to make a mass shooting...



US Mass Shootings, 1982-2015: Data From Mother Jones' Investigation

2021...6
2020....2

2019....10

2018... 12

2017:  11 ( 5 according to the old standard)

2016....6

2015....4 ( obama's new standard....7)

2014....2 (4)

2013....5

2012....7

2011....3

2010....1

2009....4

2008....3

2007....4

2006....3

2005...2

2004....1

2003...1

2002 not listed so more than likely 0

2001....1

2000....1

1999....5

1998...3

1997....2

1996....1

1995...1

1994...1

1993...4

1992...2

1991...3

1990...1

1989...2

1988....1

1987...1

1986...1

1985... not listed so probably 0

1984...2

1983...not listed so probably 0

1982...1
US Mass Shootings, 1982-2015: Data From Mother Jones' Investigation


----------



## 2aguy (Jan 4, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> Oh good grief, I could equally state that guns protect and feed deranged psychopaths and sociopaths, rapists, robbers. The lives taken by guns cause life shattering trauma.




And the lives saved from rape, robbery, murder, stabbings, beatings, mass public shootings, are lives saved from that same trauma....

According to the Centers for Disease control this happens 1.1 million times a year......

According to the Dept. of Justice this happens 1.5 million times a year.....

Now...while you are here...answer the following questions...

*A woman is grabbed by a violent serial rapist at a bus stop, a train platform or in her apartment...he plans on beating, raping and murdering her. She has a gun, and can stop the rape with the gun......*
*
Do you want her to use that gun to stop the rape?

A woman stops an attack with a gun, a brutal rape, torture and murder...in a public space....if you had the ability to go back in time, and prevent her from having that gun...would you?
======
The British government will not allow a woman to own and carry a gun to prevent being gang raped in a London park.....saying she does not have "good reason," to own the gun.

A member of the House of Lords wants to quail hunt with his rich friends on his private country estate, and the British government gives him the gun....because he has "good reason."

Does this make sense to you?*


----------



## M14 Shooter (Jan 4, 2022)




----------



## 2aguy (Jan 4, 2022)

candycorn said:


> You said there were no school shootings in 2017.
> 
> Please explain why you ignore these shootings.
> 
> ...




I didn't ignore those shootings, they don't meet the FBI standard for mass public shootings....so much so Mother JOnes didn't even record them at the lower standard of 3 victims killed in the event, and even the anti-gun extremists, like you who pray to your god, "Government," didn't see these stories in the news so you could dance on the bodies of the dead, and smear their blood all over yourselves...

Lets tak a look and see what we find...



The standard for a mass public shooting according to the FBI is 3 killed...it used to be 4, but when there weren't enough mass public shootings to get news for obama's new gun control push, he loweered the standard to 3 people killed...

This didn't even meet that standard...









						Aztec High School shooting - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org
				





1). This shooter was another shooter the FBI new about...they knew who he was and investigated him...this is something that seems to happen a lot.........

2) He killed 2 people, not 3, so this doesn't qualify as a mass public shooting.....

US mass shootings, 1982–2021: Data from Mother Jones’ investigation

Dating back to at least 2005, the FBI and leading criminologists essentially defined a mass shooting as a single attack in a public place in which four or more victims were killed. We adopted that baseline for fatalities when we gathered data in 2012 on three decades worth of cases. 
-------


Here is a description of the criteria we use:

The perpetrator took the lives of at least four people. A 2008 FBI report identifies an individual as a mass murderer—versus a spree killer or a serial killer—if he kills four or more people in a single incident (not including himself), typically in a single location. (*In 2013, the US government’s fatality baseline was revised down to three; our database reflects this change beginning from Jan. 2013, as detailed above.)
The killings were carried out by a lone shooter. (Except in the case of the Columbine massacre and the Westside Middle School killings, which involved two shooters.)
The shootings occurred in a public place. (Except in the case of a party on private property in Crandon, Wisconsin, and another in Seattle, where crowds of strangers had gathered, essentially constituting a public crowd.)* Crimes primarily related to gang activity or armed robbery are not included, nor are mass killings that took place in private homes (often stemming from domestic violence).*
Perpetrators who died or were wounded during the attack are not included in the victim tallies.
We included a handful of cases also known as “spree killings“—cases in which the killings occurred in more than one location, but still over a short period of time, that otherwise fit the above criteria.
----------------------
Our research focused on indiscriminate rampages in public places resulting in four or more victims killed by the attacker. We exclude shootings stemming from more conventionally motivated crimes such as armed robbery or gang violence. (Or in which the perpetrators have not been identified.) Other news outlets and researchers have since published larger tallies that include a wide range of gun crimes in which four or more people have been either wounded or killed. While those larger datasets of multiple-victim shootings are useful for studying the broader problem of gun violence, our investigation provides an in-depth look at a distinct phenomenon—from the firearms used and mental health factors to the growing copycat problem. Tracking mass shootings is complex; we believe ours is the most useful approach for studying this specific phenomenon.


----------



## 2aguy (Jan 4, 2022)

candycorn said:


> You said there were no school shootings in 2017.
> 
> Please explain why you ignore these shootings.
> 
> ...



So....if we buck the actual definition and include the Aztec shooting....

That makes 2 killed in public school shootings in 2017....

The Tehama school shooting wasn't a school shooting.....no one at the school was killed, he killed people before  he got to the school and was trying to kill a child related to him......

Again, no one was killed at the school so it didn't trip the mass public shooting tracker at Mother JOnes, or even here on U.S.message....

*Thing to note.......he had a restraining order and had his guns confiscated well before the shooting....and got guns illegally for the shooting, school was a gun free zone..*









						Rancho Tehama shootings - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org
				




*0 students or staff killed at the school

So....2017.....if you include the first school....2 killed.......in 2017 in school type shooting...out of 73 million children in the U.S...*


----------



## Smokin' OP (Jan 4, 2022)

2aguy said:


> You morons keep trying to lie about Kleck, but everytime anti-gun researchers try to refute him with their own studies they come back with almost the same numbers....
> 
> You guys focus on Kleck in the hope people will not notice the 18 other studies that show the same thing Kleck found....here...
> 
> ...


ANOTHER survey?

Survey's aren't factual, same crap Kleck tried nd failed.


----------



## Smokin' OP (Jan 4, 2022)

2aguy said:


> Shit head....


Moron.


2aguy said:


> This means we should find at least half of his 2.5 million annual Defensive Gun Uses (DGUs) in police reports alone. Instead, the most comprehensive nonpartisan effort to catalog police and media reports on DGUs by The Gun Violence Archive was barely able to find 1,600 in 2014.
> 
> *Most of the defensive gun uses did not involve even firing the gun....you moron...which means the criminal ran off, or surrendered .........and in most of those cases, the police would not have even recorded the use of a gun, you idiot....
> 
> This shows how deceptive you idiots are....*


No, it shows how gullible you morons are.


----------



## M14 Shooter (Jan 4, 2022)

Smokin' OP said:


> Moron.
> No, it shows how gullible you morons are.


Thank you for your mindless, zero-content response.


----------



## 2aguy (Jan 4, 2022)

candycorn said:


> You said there were no school shootings in 2017.
> 
> Please explain why you ignore these shootings.
> 
> ...




Dipshit......you just linked to the Freeman Highschool data page....not the shooting page...

Don't worry, I looked it up for you.....

Once again....only one student was killed.....this is why it didn't trip the Mother Jones mass public shooting tracker and why it didn't even show up here on U.S.messageboard.......it doesn't even have a Wikipedia page dedicated to it....you doofus....



			https://www.usnews.com/news/best-states/washington/articles/2021-11-16/trial-in-freeman-school-shooting-case-scheduled-for-jan-18
		




So........of the 3 shootings you want added...which do not meet the basic definition of mass public shooting.........

 people were killed in 2017 at schools in what one could consider mass public shootings....vs. gang or crime releated shootings...


So...since 2012.... people were killed in school shootings.......


Since 2012 to 2019.....2019 the last year for CDC death data....

24,713 people age <1 to 18 were killed in cars.....

Also.....


----------



## 2aguy (Jan 4, 2022)

candycorn said:


> You said there were no school shootings in 2017.
> 
> Please explain why you ignore these shootings.
> 
> ...




Going through the Mother Jones Data base for mass public shootings and isolating school shootings at all levels including colleges and community colleges how many people were killed?

For your sake I also included the Aztec, Freeman and Tehama school shootings with their grand total of 3 people killed...no one having been actually killed in the Tehama school shooting......all deaths occurred in other locations....

Between 1992-2021

139

there are currently over 73 million children in the U.S.

Deer kill 200 people every single year.

Ladders kill 300 people every year....

Cars killed over 39,000 in 2019

Bathtubs kill 350 people a year....

Lawnmowers kill









						US mass shootings, 1982–2022: Data from Mother Jones’ investigation
					

The full data set from our in-depth investigation into mass shootings.




					www.motherjones.com
				





139 children killed over 29 years............

To repeat....

139 children killed over 29 years....

2019 alone, 645 children ages <1 to 14 died of drowning.

2019 alone,  74 died from poisoning....

2019 alone, 1,282 died in car accidents........


For that number.....you want to ban 600 million guns, and stop over 21.5 millioin Americans  who currently carry their legal guns in public for self defense..........


This is why you are insane and irrational......

Just for reference....and why we protect the 2nd Amendment.......

the national socialists murdered 1.5 million Jewish, Romani and other children..........their government.......and why we have the 2nd Amendment...


----------



## 2aguy (Jan 4, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> Don't you? Many posters on this site appear to blame all Muslims for 9/11, forgetting or ignoring the fact that that atrocity was carried out by Saudis.




Hmmmmm...Saudis are not muslims??


----------



## 2aguy (Jan 4, 2022)

NoNukes said:


> The rest of the world surrendered it for good reasons. Americans are too thick to see this.




Yes....the Europeans did what you want and first registered, then turned in their guns...on the promise it would make them all safer...this happened in the 1920s...

By the end of the 1930s, the registered guns were confiscated....and the mass murder began...

Did turning in their guns actually make them safer....the numbers of murder victims say no...

German socialists

*By genocide, the murder of hostages, reprisal raids, forced labor, "euthanasia," starvation, exposure, medical experiments, and terror bombing, and in the concentration and death camps, the Nazis murdered from 15,003,000 to 31,595,000 people, most likely 20,946,000 men, women, handicapped, aged, sick, prisoners of war, forced laborers, camp inmates, critics, homosexuals, Jews, Slavs, Serbs, Germans, Czechs, Italians, Poles, French, Ukrainians, and many others. Among them 1,000,000 were children under eighteen years of age.1 
*
*And none of these monstrous figures even include civilian and military combat or war-deaths*

http://[URL='http://hawaii.edu/powe...]http://hawaii.edu/powerkills/NAZIS.CHAP1.HTM[/URL]


----------



## 2aguy (Jan 4, 2022)

Smokin' OP said:


> ANOTHER survey?
> 
> Survey's aren't factual, same crap Kleck tried nd failed.




OK dipshit.....answer these....


and again, any woman reading these posts....note that the left wing anti-gunners refuse to answer the following simple questions.......that should tell you all you need to know about you, your safety and where you rank in their beliefs......

*A woman is grabbed by a violent serial rapist at a bus stop, a train platform or in her apartment...he plans on beating, raping and murdering her. She has a gun, and can stop the rape with the gun......

Do you want her to use that gun to stop the rape?

A woman stops an attack with a gun, a brutal rape, torture and murder...in a public space....if you had the ability to go back in time, and prevent her from having that gun...would you?
======
The British government will not allow a woman to own and carry a gun to prevent being gang raped in a London park.....saying she does not have "good reason," to own the gun.

A member of the House of Lords wants to quail hunt with his rich friends on his private country estate, and the British government gives him the gun....because he has "good reason."

Does this make sense to you?*


----------



## Man of Ethics (Jan 4, 2022)

M14 Shooter said:


> As you know...
> For every gun used to commit murder, >10 are used in self-defense
> For every gun used to commit suicide, >5 are used in self-0defense


Some studies say so.

That seems very strange.  Justifiable homicide is rare.


----------



## 2aguy (Jan 4, 2022)

Relative Ethics said:


> Some studies say so.
> 
> That seems very strange.  Justifiable homicide is rare.



The reason dead criminals at the hand of armed citizens is rare is due to two things

1). Normal people do not want to shoot or kill anyone, even criminals.

2) except for the 238 or so really stupid
Criminals each year, most criminals do not want to be shot…..wounded or killed.

   This is why most gun self defense events do not end in even wounding or death.

Criminals run away, or surrender, and then, even when shot, are wounded, not killed.

Only 238 or so criminals are stupid or unlucky and actually manage to push normal people into shooting them….


----------



## candycorn (Jan 4, 2022)

2aguy said:


> I didn't ignore those shootings, they don't meet the FBI standard for mass public shootings....so much so Mother JOnes didn't even record them at the lower standard of 3 victims killed in the event, and even the anti-gun extremists, like you who pray to your god, "Government," didn't see these stories in the news so you could dance on the bodies of the dead, and smear their blood all over yourselves...
> 
> Lets tak a look and see what we find...
> 
> ...



Shootings that take place at schools are not school shootings?


----------



## candycorn (Jan 4, 2022)

2aguy said:


> So....if we buck the actual definition and include the Aztec shooting....
> 
> That makes 2 killed in public school shootings in 2017....
> 
> ...


Ahh...so kids and teachers merely being shot is no problem...you have to get killed for it to "matter"?

How long have you been this insane?


----------



## candycorn (Jan 4, 2022)

2aguy said:


> Dipshit......you just linked to the Freeman Highschool data page....not the shooting page...
> 
> Don't worry, I looked it up for you.....
> 
> ...


"ONLY" one student was killed.....

This is what the 2nd Amendment has brought us....  that a kid can get killed and it is dismissed because the body count is not that high.  



Wow.


Again, you seem to want to celebrate the 2nd amendment.  Make sure you pick a date that coincides with an educational bloodbath....since that is what the 2nd Amendment is bringing us.


----------



## 2aguy (Jan 4, 2022)

candycorn said:


> Shootings that take place at schools are not school shootings?



Depends on when they happen.  Is the school open at the time of the shooting……is the general school population the target or is it a domestic dispute?  Is it a gang member shooting another gang member but no one else?


----------



## 2aguy (Jan 4, 2022)

candycorn said:


> Ahh...so kids and teachers merely being shot is no problem...you have to get killed for it to "matter"?
> 
> How long have you been this insane?



Are you this stupid?  The FBI has a specific definition of mass public shooting….you have seen it over and over again……ask them


----------



## 2aguy (Jan 4, 2022)

candycorn said:


> "ONLY" one student was killed.....
> 
> This is what the 2nd Amendment has brought us....  that a kid can get killed and it is dismissed because the body count is not that high.
> 
> ...



138 kids and or staff killed over 29 years……cars kill over 1000 kids every single year….

According to your standard we now must ban and confiscate all cars…dittos bathtubs that kill 350 people every year.


----------



## M14 Shooter (Jan 4, 2022)

Relative Ethics said:


> Some studies say so.


A study YOU use for reference.
Must be legit - right?


----------



## candycorn (Jan 4, 2022)

2aguy said:


> Are you this stupid?  The FBI has a specific definition of mass public shooting….you have seen it over and over again……ask them



Yes they do...

But we're not talking about the FBI definition...we're talking about school shootings.  And you seem to think it's just peachy if kids are "only" shot and not killed.  What in the fuck is wrong with you?


----------



## candycorn (Jan 4, 2022)

2aguy said:


> 138 kids and or staff killed over 29 years……cars kill over 1000 kids every single year….
> 
> According to your standard we now must ban and confiscate all cars…dittos bathtubs that kill 350 people every year.



According to your standard, we can accept a lot more gun deaths?

What in the fuck is wrong with you?


----------



## 2aguy (Jan 4, 2022)

candycorn said:


> According to your standard, we can accept a lot more gun deaths?
> 
> What in the fuck is wrong with you?



You shouldn’t drink when you are on meds…….you need to stop.


----------



## 2aguy (Jan 4, 2022)

candycorn said:


> Yes they do...
> 
> But we're not talking about the FBI definition...we're talking about school shootings.  And you seem to think it's just peachy if kids are "only" shot and not killed.  What in the fuck is wrong with you?



Put down the booze and call someone…..you need an AA meeting right away


----------



## candycorn (Jan 4, 2022)

2aguy said:


> You shouldn’t drink when you are on meds…….you need to stop.



You never told us what school massacre are you planning to celebrate.  That is the most damaging outcome of the centuries old 2nd Amendment...that and your bizarre acceptance of kids being murdered.  

Really...what the fuck is wrong with you?


----------



## 2aguy (Jan 4, 2022)

candycorn said:


> You never told us what school massacre are you planning to celebrate.  That is the most damaging outcome of the centuries old 2nd Amendment...that and your bizarre acceptance of kids being murdered.
> 
> Really...what the fuck is wrong with you?



138 people killed in 29 years?

cars killed over 39,000 in just 2019


----------



## 2aguy (Jan 4, 2022)

candycorn said:


> You never told us what school massacre are you planning to celebrate.  That is the most damaging outcome of the centuries old 2nd Amendment...that and your bizarre acceptance of kids being murdered.
> 
> Really...what the fuck is wrong with you?



Of the two of us you and the other anti- gun extremists love school shootings…..they help you with your anti- gun mania.


----------



## candycorn (Jan 4, 2022)

2aguy said:


> 138 people killed in 29 years?
> 
> cars killed over 39,000 in just 2019



Are you really sick enough to not know the difference between accidental deaths and murders?  

Really..what in the fuck is wrong with you?


----------



## candycorn (Jan 4, 2022)

2aguy said:


> Of the two of us you and the other anti- gun extremists love school shootings…..they help you with your anti- gun mania.



You're the one who refuses to acknowledge school shootings ( you said zero occurred in 2017 when I showed you just 3 of the many that took place).  So you're the one who thinks "only" one dead kid is acceptable. 

Really, what in the fuck is wrong with you?


----------



## 2aguy (Jan 4, 2022)

candycorn said:


> Are you really sick enough to not know the difference between accidental deaths and murders?
> 
> Really..what in the fuck is wrong with you?



Cars kill more people accidentally than guns do when criminals use them illegally…….if you weren’t stupid you would see that that shows that cars are deadlier than guns……..and according to your own “logic” that means we need to ban and confiscate cars.


----------



## 2aguy (Jan 4, 2022)

candycorn said:


> You're the one who refuses to acknowledge school shootings ( you said zero occurred in 2017 when I showed you just 3 of the many that took place).  So you're the one who thinks "only" one dead kid is acceptable.
> 
> Really, what in the fuck is wrong with you?



Mother Jones, the anti gun,
Left wing extremist news source didnt log those shootings…..none of you anti-gun extremists knew about them as well……

Even with them?

138 deaths in 29 years

Cars over 39,000 killed in 2019.


----------



## candycorn (Jan 4, 2022)

2aguy said:


> Cars kill more people accidentally than guns do when criminals use them illegally…….if you weren’t stupid you would see that that shows that cars are deadlier than guns……..and according to your own “logic” that means we need to ban and confiscate cars.



Your idiocy is truly incredible.  Accidental deaths are not the same as the murders you shrug off. 

Really, what in the fuck is wrong with you?


----------



## candycorn (Jan 4, 2022)

2aguy said:


> Mother Jones, the anti gun,
> Left wing extremist news source didnt log those shootings…..none of you anti-gun extremists knew about them as well……
> 
> Even with them?
> ...



Again...do you not know the difference between accidents and murders?  Really?

What in the fuck is wrong with you?


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## 2aguy (Jan 4, 2022)

candycorn said:


> Again...do you not know the difference between accidents and murders?  Really?
> 
> What in the fuck is wrong with you?



I know the difference and if you have 138 deaths in 29 years versus 39,000 deaths in one year and every year you would have to be really stupid to not see cars are
Deadlier than guns….


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## 2aguy (Jan 4, 2022)

rightwinger said:


> We get to celebrate 32,000 gun deaths a year
> 
> Something no other country would tolerate



Those other countries participated in the murder of 15million innocent men, women and children by the German socialists so don’t tell us what they won’t tolerate.


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## Smokin' OP (Jan 5, 2022)

2aguy said:


> OK dipshit.....answer these....
> 
> 
> and again, any woman reading these posts....note that the left wing anti-gunners refuse to answer the following simple questions.......that should tell you all you need to know about you, your safety and where you rank in their beliefs......


And AGAIN, you think the left-wing wants to ban guns.


2aguy said:


> *A woman is grabbed by a violent serial rapist at a bus stop, a train platform or in her apartment...he plans on beating, raping and murdering her. She has a gun, and can stop the rape with the gun.....*.





2aguy said:


> *Do you want her to use that gun to stop the rape?*


Of course, thank god she has her AK-47 with her on her way to the dentist.



2aguy said:


> *A woman stops an attack with a gun, a brutal rape, torture and murder...in a public space....if you had the ability to go back in time, and prevent her from having that gun...would you?*


NO.


2aguy said:


> *======
> The British government will not allow a woman to own and carry a gun to prevent being gang raped in a London park.....saying she does not have "good reason," to own the gun.*


Nothing stopping her from carrying a knife.
What she needs is an AR-15.


2aguy said:


> *A member of the House of Lords wants to quail hunt with his rich friends on his private country estate, and the British government gives him the gun....because he has "good reason."
> 
> Does this make sense to you?*


Even they have to have a license and a registered weapon.


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## Smokin' OP (Jan 5, 2022)

2aguy said:


> Yes....the Europeans did what you want and first registered, then turned in their guns...on the promise it would make them all safer...this happened in the 1920s...





2aguy said:


> By the end of the 1930s, the registered guns were confiscated....and the mass murder began...


You're SO, FOS.

1928 the _Law on Firearms and Ammunition_ was enacted. It relaxed gun restrictions as to ownership (but not as to their use and instruction on their use, as these were still illegal according to the Versailles Treaty) and put into effect a strict firearm licensing scheme. 
Under this scheme, Germans could possess firearms, but were required to have separate permits to do the following: own or sell firearms, carry firearms (including handguns), manufacture firearms, and professionally deal in firearms and ammunition. 
Furthermore, the law restricted ownership of firearms to "... persons whose trustworthiness is not in question and who can show a need for a (gun) permit."

The 1938 _German Weapons Act_, the precursor of the current weapons law, superseded the 1928 law. As under the 1928 law, citizens were required to have a permit to carry a firearm and a separate permit to acquire a firearm. But under the new law:


Gun restriction laws applied only to handguns, not to long guns or ammunition. The 1938 revisions completely deregulated the acquisition and transfer of rifles and shotguns, and the possession of ammunition.
The legal age at which guns could be purchased was lowered from 20 to 18.
Permits were valid for three years, rather than one year.
Holders of annual hunting permits, government workers, and NSDAP (the National Socialist German Workers' Party) members were no longer subject to gun ownership restrictions. Prior to the 1938 law, only officials of the central government, the states, and employees of the German Reichsbahn Railways were exempted.


Manufacture of arms and ammunition continued to require a permit, with the proviso that such permits would no longer be issued to any company even partly owned by Jews; Jews could not manufacture or deal in firearms or ammunition.



2aguy said:


> Did turning in their guns actually make them safer....the numbers of murder victims say no...
> 
> German socialists


Horseshit.
You blame gun confiscation for jews  being in concentration camps?


2aguy said:


> *By genocide, the murder of hostages, reprisal raids, forced labor, "euthanasia," starvation, exposure, medical experiments, and terror bombing, and in the concentration and death camps, the Nazis murdered from 15,003,000 to 31,595,000 people, most likely 20,946,000 men, women, handicapped, aged, sick, prisoners of war, forced laborers, camp inmates, critics, homosexuals, Jews, Slavs, Serbs, Germans, Czechs, Italians, Poles, French, Ukrainians, and many others. Among them 1,000,000 were children under eighteen years of age.1 *
> 
> *And none of these monstrous figures even include civilian and military combat or war-deaths*
> 
> http://[URL='http://hawaii.edu/powe...]http://hawaii.edu/powerkills/NAZIS.CHAP1.HTM[/URL]


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## Vagabond63 (Jan 5, 2022)

2aguy said:


> Hmmmmm...Saudis are not muslims??


Never said they weren't. Saudis are America's allies, was my point. Do keep up.


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## Vagabond63 (Jan 5, 2022)

candycorn said:


> You're the one who refuses to acknowledge school shootings ( you said zero occurred in 2017 when I showed you just 3 of the many that took place).  So you're the one who thinks "only" one dead kid is acceptable.
> 
> Really, what in the fuck is wrong with you?


Have you not noticed, 2aguy cherry-picks  data to fit his "arguments" while ignoring any data that might contradict him. This is another reason he floods threads with the same copy/paste BS because the more you repeat something, the more likely people are to believe it as truth. He's basically just a "firehose of falsehoods".


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## candycorn (Jan 5, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> Have you not noticed, 2aguy cherry-picks  data to fit his "arguments" while ignoring any data that might contradict him. This is another reason he floods threads with the same copy/paste BS because the more you repeat something, the more likely people are to believe it as truth. He's basically just a "firehose of falsehoods".


Its debunked boilerplate lies...over and over.  

I'm of the opinion that there are places in the nation where not having a gun to protect yourself is almost negligent....so I'm not against gun ownership.  The notion though that anyone should be able to go into any store and buy as many guns as they can afford no questions asked is batshit crazy as our number of gun deaths every year confirm.


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## Smokin' OP (Jan 5, 2022)

candycorn said:


> Its debunked boilerplate lies...over and over.
> 
> I'm of the opinion that there are places in the nation where not having a gun to protect yourself is almost negligent....so I'm not against gun ownership.  The notion though that anyone should be able to go into any store and buy as many guns as they can afford no questions asked is batshit crazy as our number of gun deaths every year confirm.


Of course, they want people to jump through hoops to vote.

Guns?..........................no shirt, no shoes, no ID....................no problem.


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## 2aguy (Jan 5, 2022)

Smokin' OP said:


> You're SO, FOS.
> 
> 1928 the _Law on Firearms and Ammunition_ was enacted. It relaxed gun restrictions as to ownership (but not as to their use and instruction on their use, as these were still illegal according to the Versailles Treaty) and put into effect a strict firearm licensing scheme.
> Under this scheme, Germans could possess firearms, but were required to have separate permits to do the following: own or sell firearms, carry firearms (including handguns), manufacture firearms, and professionally deal in firearms and ammunition.
> ...




Moron....you guys always point to party members owning guns, never to the fact that Jews and political enemies of the socialists had their guns taken......you know, the ones they actually murdered.


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## M14 Shooter (Jan 5, 2022)

Smokin' OP said:


> And AGAIN, you think the left-wing wants to ban guns.


The vast majority of Democrats include gun bans as part of their campaign platform.
Are they lying abut their intention?


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## M14 Shooter (Jan 5, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> Have you not noticed, 2aguy cherry-picks  data to fit his "arguments" while ignoring any data that might contradict him.


Did you noticed how every time someone points out the fallacy of your 'UK gun laws reduce gun-related crime' nonsense, you ignore it?
I did.





__





						Let's celebrate the Right to Keep and Bear arms...something the rest of the world has surrendered....
					

And the US is not the UK and it will never be the UK so what you want Americans to do is irrelevant  Personally, I don't care that much what goes on across the pond unless it is likely to affect me personally. As I've stated earlier and elsewhere, I feel obliged to comment when someone claims...



					www.usmessageboard.com


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## M14 Shooter (Jan 5, 2022)

Smokin' OP said:


> YES, they are.
> NOT without a background check and a license.


What background check / license do I need to buy/own this?


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## Smokin' OP (Jan 5, 2022)

2aguy said:


> Moron....you guys always point to party members owning guns, never to the fact that Jews and political enemies of the socialists had their guns taken......you know, the ones they actually murdered.


WTF? IDIOT.
Let's review dumbass.

'

Manufacture of arms and ammunition continued to require a permit, with the provison that such permits would no longer be issued to any company even partly owned by Jews; Jews could not manufacture or deal in firearms or ammunition.



M14 Shooter said:


> The vast majority of Democrats include gun bans as part of their campaign platform.
> Are they lying abut their intention?


No, you are.......as usual.
They are talking of banning stupid guns for stupid people, that brand.
Of course, Trumptards get their panties in a bunch.


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## M14 Shooter (Jan 5, 2022)

Smokin' OP said:


> They are talking of banning stupid guns for stupid people, that brand.


Look at you, choosing to lie rather than admit you are wrong.
Fact remains:
The vast majority of Democrats include gun bans as part of their campaign platform.


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## Smokin' OP (Jan 5, 2022)

M14 Shooter said:


> What background check / license do I need to buy/own this?
> 
> View attachment 583826


What is it?
Looks like a pistol for idiots.


----------



## Smokin' OP (Jan 5, 2022)

M14 Shooter said:


> Look at you, choosing to lie rather than admit you are wrong.
> Fact remains:
> The vast majority of Democrats include gun bans as part of their campaign platform.


OK.


----------



## M14 Shooter (Jan 5, 2022)

Smokin' OP said:


> What is it?


A shotgun with a ~5" barrel.


----------



## M14 Shooter (Jan 5, 2022)

Smokin' OP said:


> OK.


And so you agree:
Gun owners have good reason to believe the left-wing wants to ban guns.


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## Vagabond63 (Jan 5, 2022)

M14 Shooter said:


> Gun owners have good reason to believe the left-wing wants to ban guns.


More likely, that's the beliefs of Right wing gun crazies.


----------



## Vagabond63 (Jan 5, 2022)

2aguy said:


> Those other countries participated in the murder of 15million innocent men, women and children by the German socialists so don’t tell us what they won’t tolerate.


Making numbers up again. Please make up your mind how many innocent victims were killed by totalitarian regimes with both left and right wing political views in the early twentieth century. 

Oh, BTW, in the mid 19th century, a Christian sect was responsible for the deaths of over 20 million people? Just thought I'd throw that in there.


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## 2aguy (Jan 5, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> Making numbers up again. Please make up your mind how many innocent victims were killed by totalitarian regimes with both left and right wing political views in the early twentieth century.
> 
> Oh, BTW, in the mid 19th century, a Christian sect was responsible for the deaths of over 20 million people? Just thought I'd throw that in there.




From a leading researcher in government murder...

NAZI GENOCIDE AND MASS MURDER



German socialists

*By genocide, the murder of hostages, reprisal raids, forced labor, "euthanasia," starvation, exposure, medical experiments, and terror bombing, and in the concentration and death camps, the Nazis murdered from 15,003,000 to 31,595,000 people, most likely 20,946,000 men, women, handicapped, aged, sick, prisoners of war, forced laborers, camp inmates, critics, homosexuals, Jews, Slavs, Serbs, Germans, Czechs, Italians, Poles, French, Ukrainians, and many others. Among them 1,000,000 were children under eighteen years of age.1 *

And none of these monstrous figures even include civilian and military combat or war-deaths

http://[URL='http://hawaii.edu/powe...]http://hawaii.edu/powerkills/NAZIS.CHAP1.HTM[/URL]


----------



## M14 Shooter (Jan 5, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> More likely, that's the beliefs of Right wing gun crazies.


You must not have paid -any- attention to the conversation you just commented on.
The vast majority of Democrats include gun bans as part of their campaign platform.        
Unless these people are lying, gun owners have good reason to believe the left-wing wants to ban guns.  
Why do you think they are lying?


----------

