# California's Brown Signs Bill Permitting Non-Physician Abortions



## Jroc (Oct 9, 2013)

Who needs a doctor when youi're killing babies?..Women's rights?



> *Gov. Jerry Brown of California signed AB 154 on Wednesday, legalizing non-physician abortions in the state*.
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> The legislation, which had been pushed vigorously by Planned Parenthood, had been strongly opposed by pro-life groups and some physicians, arguing that it amounted to *legalizing back-alley abortions for profit*.



California's Brown Signs Bill Permitting Non-Physician Abortions


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## TheOldSchool (Oct 9, 2013)

God dammit california.  What the fuck...


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## WelfareQueen (Oct 9, 2013)

But, but, but, but....I thought it was all about Women's Health?   


Ask any women if you want a non-MD sticking things up their koochie to extract a fetus.  Maybe women will finally learn the Democrat line that "it's all about Women's health" is a complete lie.    

Ladies, the Dems don't give a shit about "Women's Health," as this law so aptly demonstrates.  What it really is about is social control and making women feel powerless.


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## HenryBHough (Oct 9, 2013)

I guess it's OK so long as those "providers" are Democrats, experienced at shoving stuff up folks nether regions.


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## driveby (Oct 9, 2013)

WelfareQueen said:


> But, but, but, but....I thought it was all about Women's Health?
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> Ask any women if you want a non-MD sticking things up their koochie to extract a fetus.  Maybe women will finally learn the Democrat line that "it's all about Women's health" is a complete lie.
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Beat me to it...   

There is your real war on women ladies and gents........


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## get_involved (Oct 9, 2013)

Nurse practitioners and physician assistants are qualified to do these early procedures. They won't be legalized back-alley abortions.


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## Plasmaball (Oct 9, 2013)

okie dokie, what else is going on in the news that would be vastly more important?


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## ScienceRocks (Oct 9, 2013)

Good for Brown.... Abortion should come with risk.


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## WelfareQueen (Oct 9, 2013)

get_involved said:


> Nurse practitioners and physician assistants are qualified to do these early procedures. They won't be legalized back-alley abortions.




I am a master's level health care provider.  I work in a major inner city ER that sees over 100,000 patients a year.  I have been in practice for over 25 years.  In no way is a Nurse Practitioner or PA qualified to do unsupervised abortions.   It is beyond their scope of practice and license, and is a major potential health risk to women.  

This law demonstrates an utter contempt for women and their health.  Period.  The only person who should be performing abortions are board certified OB/GYN specialists.


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## BreezeWood (Oct 9, 2013)

> and some physicians, arguing that it amounted to legalizing back-alley abortions for profit.



Good for Brown.... he hit the right nerve. -  

its not back ally when the physician puts the gal in bankruptcy ...

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## Rct_Tsoul (Oct 9, 2013)

Personally I think every abortion should need to be approved by a judge, if you are able to hold your lunch down, take a look at this video:


> Abortion: Dismemberment of an unborn child video


Even though this is intruding upon the VAG, the father of the child deserves to have a say so to allow this to happen to his child, all abortions should be signed by a judge or it should be illegal.
The reason most women get abortions is because they are superficial and are worried about the pregnancy damaging their figure, and that is not a good enough reason to scramble a child's brains & pull them apart like this wile their still ALIVE.


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## KokomoJojo (Oct 9, 2013)

WelfareQueen said:


> But, but, but, but....I thought it was all about Women's Health?
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> Ask any women if you want a non-MD sticking things up their koochie to extract a fetus.  Maybe women will finally learn the Democrat line that "it's all about Women's health" is a complete lie.
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it is!

hooray for california!

no need to get some blood sucking license toting monopoly fool doing a job that can be done better and cheaper in the private.

btw how are things going around Uranus now days?


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## tinydancer (Oct 9, 2013)

What could possibly go wrong?


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## KokomoJojo (Oct 9, 2013)

WelfareQueen said:


> It is beyond their scope of practice and license, and is a major potential health risk to women.




what good does a license do that does nothing more than say the state gave you _*permission *_to do what you do, its meaningless.


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## Jroc (Oct 9, 2013)

BreezeWood said:


> > and some physicians, arguing that it amounted to legalizing back-alley abortions for profit.
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yep dead babies tend to "hit a nerve" with normal people


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## Jroc (Oct 9, 2013)

KokomoJojo said:


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Maybe the Janitor can do it


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## WelfareQueen (Oct 9, 2013)

KokomoJojo said:


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Hairy with a chance of a shit-storm.


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## Jroc (Oct 9, 2013)

Maybe next drive through abortion? Ease of access you know


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## ScienceRocks (Oct 9, 2013)

I wish all the people in California could have free abortion  Legal and illegal alike.


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## TemplarKormac (Oct 9, 2013)

Hey, where are the Liberals chanting their screeds about Republicans not caring about women's health? Oh yeah, they're all quiet. This is disgusting and they f'ing know it.


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## April (Oct 9, 2013)

It is absolutely asinine to allow someone other than a trained, licensed physician to perform a procedure that can have life threatening complications...I really hope that some women are not that stupid...they may as well head to their local butcher shop. 
Unreal.


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## Plasmaball (Oct 10, 2013)

AngelsNDemons said:


> It is absolutely asinine to allow someone other than a trained, licensed physician to perform a procedure that can have life threatening complications...I really hope that some women are not that stupid...they may as well head to their local butcher shop.
> Unreal.



least you were not all sensational about it.


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## TemplarKormac (Oct 10, 2013)

Plasmaball said:


> AngelsNDemons said:
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> > It is absolutely asinine to allow someone other than a trained, licensed physician to perform a procedure that can have life threatening complications...I really hope that some women are not that stupid...they may as well head to their local butcher shop.
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Yep. Ole Kermit would be proud of you. Perhaps you'll find a woman needing your untrained hands to perform an abortion in California someday. You'll feel all giddy inside as you end a life not yet begun and perhaps maybe the poor woman's as well.


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## WelfareQueen (Oct 10, 2013)

Plasmaball said:


> AngelsNDemons said:
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> > It is absolutely asinine to allow someone other than a trained, licensed physician to perform a procedure that can have life threatening complications...I really hope that some women are not that stupid...they may as well head to their local butcher shop.
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Another proud liberal who is clearly deeply concerned about "women's health."


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## BDBoop (Oct 10, 2013)

AngelsNDemons said:


> It is absolutely asinine to allow someone other than a trained, licensed physician to perform a procedure that can have life threatening complications...I really hope that some women are not that stupid...they may as well head to their local butcher shop.
> Unreal.



Which is pretty much exactly what making abortion illegal would accomplish, and better than half the board favors that.


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## koshergrl (Oct 10, 2013)

get_involved said:


> Nurse practitioners and physician assistants are qualified to do these early procedures. They won't be legalized back-alley abortions.


That's exactly what they are you fucking idiot. True and ethical physicians don't do abortions. They are passing these bills so they can keep the abattoirs that are currently functioning, legal under increasing scrutiny. They know the butchers and pigs who do this work now. They're just making it so they can't be prosecuted when the feds start running ghetto residents through like cattle. Production line killing. They need as many *qualified* workers as they can line up because they plan to kill a LOT of babies. And women too..but those deaths will just be incidental and acceptable collateral.


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## TemplarKormac (Oct 10, 2013)

BDBoop said:


> AngelsNDemons said:
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> > It is absolutely asinine to allow someone other than a trained, licensed physician to perform a procedure that can have life threatening complications...I really hope that some women are not that stupid...they may as well head to their local butcher shop.
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Well, this presents quite the conundrum.

First you say that making abortion illegal would endanger women's health, yet you don't speak as to what would happen to a woman's health when Non-Phycisian abortions are allowed in California.

Do you hear that? That's your hypocrisy talking.


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## Plasmaball (Oct 10, 2013)

TemplarKormac said:


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i have zero interest in performing abortions, i have zero issue with a woman getting an abortion. Its not my problem. Unlike you i mind my own business.


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## Plasmaball (Oct 10, 2013)

WelfareQueen said:


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when a woman has an abortion i put on a party hat!


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## TemplarKormac (Oct 10, 2013)

Plasmaball said:


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Oh? Unlike you, I don't advocate murder. 

Dismissed.


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## TemplarKormac (Oct 10, 2013)

Plasmaball said:


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How sickening. Negged.


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## koshergrl (Oct 10, 2013)

All these women were recruited, trained, and put to work legally abusing people. 

File:Biskupia Gorka executions - 14 - Barkmann, Paradies, Becker, Klaff, Steinhoff (left to right).jpg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

When the regime was over, they were convicted as war criminals.

Crimes against humanity are crimes against humanity. It doesn't matter if it's legal at the time or not.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Female_guards_in_Nazi_concentration_camps


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## ScienceRocks (Oct 10, 2013)

TemplarKormac said:


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He does it because he knows there won't be another thug born.  These woman are incapable of raising children. 

What do you expect we do?


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## BDBoop (Oct 10, 2013)

Matthew said:


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Well, not only that but if I can just squeeze in three more abortions before Thanksgiving, I'll have a Fiestaware® gravy boat for the holidays!!


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## koshergrl (Oct 10, 2013)

The true mentality of the pro-abortion fanatic....abuse the women, kill their kids, they have no worth.


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## JoeB131 (Oct 10, 2013)

Jroc said:


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Normal people don't consider kidney-bean sized fetuses to be "babies".  

They call it, "that problem I need to take care of".


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## BorisTheAnimal (Oct 10, 2013)

BreezeWood said:


> > and some physicians, arguing that it amounted to legalizing back-alley abortions for profit.
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Or in the grave.


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## JoeB131 (Oct 10, 2013)

TemplarKormac said:


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Gosnell was a licensed medical doctor.  He still did horrible harm to his adult patients (The only issue that matters.) That kind of defeats your argument.  

Here's the thing.  Most abortions are performed between 8-12 weeks.  You guys go on and on about the late term abortions that almost kind of look like a baby, but that's less than 1% of abortions performed, and usually for good medical reasons.  

Fact is,  trained nurse practioner is as qualified to perform an early abortion as she is to perform thousands of other medical procedures that they do every day. 

I mean, shit, you guys don't get upset when midwives deliver babies, even though they aren't doctors.


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## Intense (Oct 10, 2013)

Matthew said:


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You should campaign on that, bring it all out in the open. Let all your bought and paid for voters see you for what you are, for once.


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## BorisTheAnimal (Oct 10, 2013)

JoeB131 said:


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So I see you're just another RINO who approves, advocates, and promotes the wanton slaughter of unborn children at the altar of "choice".


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## TemplarKormac (Oct 10, 2013)

Matthew said:


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Your post is equally as sickening. What I expect you to do is exercise some reverence for human life!


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## JoeB131 (Oct 10, 2013)

BorisTheAnimal said:


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> So I see you're just another RINO who approves, advocates, and promotes the wanton slaughter of unborn children at the altar of "choice".



No, i'm a moderate Republican who realizes that abortion is what keeps you dumbasses voting against your own economic interests. 

It's how the 1% got everything it wanted and abortion is just as legal now as it was in 1974. 

If you guys were serious about lowering the number of abortions, you'd support universal health care, head start, welfare without shame, paid family and medical leave, and all the other things that would tip a decision on ending a pregnancy.


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## TemplarKormac (Oct 10, 2013)

JoeB131 said:


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You lying son of a gun.  There is no way you are "moderate" or "republican" on anything. You more closely resemble a neo-progressive than anything else.


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## JoeB131 (Oct 10, 2013)

TemplarKormac said:


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No, I represent what Republicans were before couch-sitting trolls like you took it over.


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## BorisTheAnimal (Oct 10, 2013)

JoeB131 said:


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Like I said, another RINO who have ruined the GOP.  There's no difference between you and the Communist Democrats.


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## ScienceRocks (Oct 10, 2013)

TemplarKormac said:


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Better then raising a child that isn't wanted that turns out to kill people.


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## ba1614 (Oct 10, 2013)

TemplarKormac said:


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Pretty much sums up the big government entitlement minded republican that has made the party nearly indistinguishable from the democrats.


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## JoeB131 (Oct 10, 2013)

BorisTheAnimal said:


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The only thing that ruined the GOP is when the crazies took over the asylum.


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## BorisTheAnimal (Oct 10, 2013)

JoeB131 said:


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You mean when real conservatives finally wrested the GOP from limpwristed RINOs like you.


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## ba1614 (Oct 10, 2013)

Matthew said:


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There are many people who would adopt a newborn. The problem is society is so fucked up that there is more perceived shame in giving a baby up for adoption than there is in murder by getting an abortion. We should be encouraging life by removing the negative stigma of giving up a baby to adoption.


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## JoeB131 (Oct 10, 2013)

ba1614 said:


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NOt really is one. 

Here's the real problem. The couples which want to adopt are the ones who put off having babies when they were young and fertile, and are buying the babies of the poor. 

Frankly, this is just creating a class of breeders.  Not seeing this as a good thing.  

Again, what you guys need to do is make it easier for women to choose motherhood over career.


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## Warrior102 (Oct 10, 2013)

JoeB131 said:


> Gosnell was a licensed medical doctor.



So was Josef Mengele, cumstain


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## JoeB131 (Oct 10, 2013)

Warrior102 said:


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Yes he was... 

WHich completely defeats the argument that they have some higher level of holiness in performing a simple outpatient procedure.


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## billyerock1991 (Oct 10, 2013)

Jroc said:


> Who needs a doctor when youi're killing babies?..Women's rights?
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GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOD

they already have  one its call ARE you For 86 heheheheheheheh !!!


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## ba1614 (Oct 10, 2013)

JoeB131 said:


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Choosing life is always the right thing to do.


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## BorisTheAnimal (Oct 10, 2013)

billyerock1991 said:


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Hitler loves people like you.


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## martybegan (Oct 10, 2013)

JoeB131 said:


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Midwives do natural childbirth, where the baby is already coming out. Abortion unless done chemically is a surgical procedure. Are there any other surgical procedures out there that don't require a medical doctor?


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## JoeB131 (Oct 10, 2013)

ba1614 said:


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Not really. The world is already overpopulated and we are straining our resources.   

The only thing we can be thankful for is that most of the world's seven billion people don't live like Americans, or we'd need three planets.


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## billyerock1991 (Oct 10, 2013)

BorisTheAnimal said:


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this repub-lie-clown seems to have a identity crisis if you appose something you're a homo if don't appose it you're a real man


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## billyerock1991 (Oct 10, 2013)

JoeB131 said:


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for every child borne 10 children starve to death ... a figure these repub-lie clowns don't want you to know


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## NLT (Oct 10, 2013)

JoeB131 said:


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If it has a heatbeat its a human life you fucking shitstain 

Too bad you were'nt terminated when you were a kidney bean


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## martybegan (Oct 10, 2013)

billyerock1991 said:


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You got a link for that bullshit?


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## ba1614 (Oct 10, 2013)

JoeB131 said:


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We'll if you're that worried about the population stop protecting animals that have taken life, abused a women or child, and stretch their necks. Let the innocent live.


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## JoeB131 (Oct 10, 2013)

martybegan said:


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> Midwives do natural childbirth, where the baby is already coming out. Abortion unless done chemically is a surgical procedure. Are there any other surgical procedures out there that don't require a medical doctor?



It's a real stretch to call early abortion "surgery".  

in fact, women have been getting abortions since the time of Jesus, usually not performed by "doctors".  

It's not like you wingnuts care about the fetuses, you just want to make life as difficult for the women as possible.


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## JoeB131 (Oct 10, 2013)

NLT said:


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No, it's a human life when it can live outside the womb.  

That's the LEGAL definition and has been through most of history.


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## Vox (Oct 10, 2013)

it was supposed to be* safe *procedure? leftards ARE batshit stupid 

as it was from the very beginning - it is all about control, not any choices or women's interests. It is control over the lowly masses by the elite.


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## JakeStarkey (Oct 10, 2013)

*California's Brown Signs Bill Permitting Non-Physician Abortions *

And this is uncommon how?


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## JoeB131 (Oct 10, 2013)

ba1614 said:


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Given that we end up letting more people off death row because they didn't do it than we manage to kill, I'm not feeling a warm fuzzy the government should be in that business.


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## martybegan (Oct 10, 2013)

JoeB131 said:


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Your seriously referencing back to a time where barbers/"doctors" bled people to balance thier "four humors" as an example of a non-physician doing abortions?

If something has to go in to take something out, its surgery, even if its minor surgery and should be done by a doctor. Why does the sacred lefitst sacrament of abortion require all sorts of special rules if its just another procedure to get rid of "unwanted tissue"?  How many other procedures to get rid of "unwanted tissue" can be done by someone without an MD?


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## NLT (Oct 10, 2013)

Plasmaball said:


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Negged! and I hope you get plenty more.


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## JoeB131 (Oct 10, 2013)

martybegan said:


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Not really.  There's really no reason why an abortion has to be performed by a doctor in the first trimester.   It's simply not that complicated of a procedure. 

And as you point out, abortions can be performed chemically now without "surgery".


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## Newby (Oct 10, 2013)

koshergrl said:


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This is what happens in a welfare state that's bankrupt both morally and financially .The government controls the purse strings and wants to lower costs on the amount of food stamps and other financial goodies they hand out.  Can't let that base get too large or they won't be able to sustain feeding them.  I predict we'll see the same thing once they truly get their government clutches in control of who gets what health care as well.  Scary world.


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## Stephanie (Oct 10, 2013)

alright, get out the clothes hangers

they shouldn't care

man oh man this state is history and is being run by a bunch of INSANE commies

but don't ask they have a ultrasound done, these same people will go ape shit


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## Newby (Oct 10, 2013)

JoeB131 said:


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There ya go.... exactly what I'm talking about, that's the mentality.  There's more for me!!!  Disgusting..


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## jon_berzerk (Oct 10, 2013)

Jroc said:


> Who needs a doctor when youi're killing babies?..Women's rights?
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this sort of thing happen when there is a shortage of qualified professionals to 

do the medical service 

so they move the standard down a notch or two 

think this is crazy wait for a few years of obamacare 

destroying our health system


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## TemplarKormac (Oct 10, 2013)

Matthew said:


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What kind of generalization is that? You have no clue what this child will turn out to be. That depends on the person who raises him/her. People should stop playing psychic.


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## Vox (Oct 10, 2013)

get_involved said:


> Nurse practitioners and physician assistants are qualified to do these early procedures. They *won't be legalized back-alley abortions*.



it is already 
next step is going to be certifiying the janitors to perform abortions


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## Vox (Oct 10, 2013)

jon_berzerk said:


> this sort of thing happen when there is a shortage of qualified professionals to
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the whole purpose of obamacare is to shift care to unqualified personnel( with a goal to lower the costs) - for the masses, while the elite will still have the care they want ( or so they think).


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## koshergrl (Oct 10, 2013)

I see the female hating death cultists have arrived.

Aren't they cute....


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## Vox (Oct 10, 2013)

koshergrl said:


> I see the female hating death cultists have arrived.
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> Aren't they cute....



and they all are MEN 

where is the outrage from our batshit stupid feministas of the board?

they are being denigrated to the level of cattle, for the convinience, but I guess they deserve this treatment.

Personally, I am elated that this procedure gets so marginalized and downgraded - that means I would never ever be obliged to provide care for a murder 
Not that I ever had, but in a government-controlled medicine anything is possible.


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## C_Clayton_Jones (Oct 10, 2013)

Telling the hypocrisy and inconsistency of the right, how states rights go out the window when it concerns something they oppose. 

And this law is an example of how state measures can both reflect the will of the majority of the people and conform to Constitutional case law, unlike Proposition 8, for example.  

By meeting those two fundamental requirements, the new law is perfectly appropriate and legitimate, as there is no evidence that the new measure will in any way jeopardize the health of women seeking abortions. 

Conservatives fear the measure because they know no womans health will be endangered, thus undermining the legitimacy of efforts in other states such as requiring doctors to have admitting privileges, a popular backdoor tactic by those opposed to privacy rights.


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## Katzndogz (Oct 10, 2013)

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The janitor will!   He was a janitor last week.  This week he got a new job as an abortionist.  Kermit Gosnell had a 15 year old girl he "trained" in a couple of weeks helping him.

In the main, I can't see anything wrong with this law.  What's the worst that can happen?  Abortions go wrong.  The women end up dead, or unable to have any more children, or get an infection, AIDS or something else.    That's not so bad.   In the great scheme of things, it's better than having them go on, healthy, alive and able to have more abortions.


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## depotoo (Oct 10, 2013)

JoeB131 said:


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then if you are so concerned, I sm sure you'd be willing to take your own life to help lessen the burden and set an example, correct?


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## depotoo (Oct 10, 2013)

C_Clayton_Jones said:


> Telling the hypocrisy and inconsistency of the right, how states rights go out the window when it concerns something they oppose.
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can you show me where this reflects the will of CA voters? Was there a referendum showing such an outcome?


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## Vox (Oct 10, 2013)

Katzndogz said:


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Saving the costs in all directions 

It is amazing how lowly the left (mostly the white men) values the women ( mostly minority ones). Not that they did not give any reason for that - with gladly parroting the mantra of "that's my body and my choice"  
Only stupid women coul let the men off the hook of responsibility that easy.

That is the reason the left considers women stupid cattle - the big chunk of women populace actually proves exactly that.


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## C_Clayton_Jones (Oct 10, 2013)

TemplarKormac said:


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> ...



And you and others on the right need to stop interfering with individuals right to personal liberty, particularly when you seek to increase the authority and power of government to realize that goal. Indeed, no one is a psychic, nor does anyone have a monopoly on morality, and is consequently in no position to dictate conduct concerning personal, private matters. 

You are at liberty to not have an abortion if you believe it is wrong, you are at liberty to counsel others against abortion for the same reason; you are not at liberty, however, to attempt to codify that subjective belief into secular law.


----------



## Katzndogz (Oct 10, 2013)

Vox said:


> Katzndogz said:
> 
> 
> > Jroc said:
> ...



The reality is women ARE devalued.  Men get doctors.  Women get the janitor.  There is no difference between these abortions and the back alley abortions of two generations ago, except today the procedures are done legally.  They are still done by the same incompetents who killed women 50 years ago.   These are the kind of women who get abortions.   Some women will pay, or have their families pay, for a doctor to perform a medical procedure.  The rest will go to incompetents and take their chances.   This isn't exactly the worst thing to ever happen.


----------



## Rct_Tsoul (Oct 10, 2013)

koshergrl said:


> I see the female hating death cultists have arrived.
> 
> Aren't they cute....



No we don't hate women, we just don't think women are capable of making decisions when the subject is upon their own VAG ........... in a nut shell .......... we are striving for the rights to use & FUCK you when ever it tickles our fancy.


----------



## Katzndogz (Oct 10, 2013)

Rct_Tsoul said:


> koshergrl said:
> 
> 
> > I see the female hating death cultists have arrived.
> ...



Knowing that you can drag that woman to the nearest untrained, incompetent who couldn't find a job any place else to get rid of the evidence is a big boost too.


----------



## Soggy in NOLA (Oct 10, 2013)

C_Clayton_Jones said:


> TemplarKormac said:
> 
> 
> > Matthew said:
> ...



But  that's exactly what the left did... they codified their belief that abortion is ok.

You lefties are so full of shit.


----------



## Eaglewings (Oct 10, 2013)

TemplarKormac said:


> Hey, where are the Liberals chanting their screeds about Republicans not caring about women's health? Oh yeah, they're all quiet. This is disgusting and they f'ing know it.




I find this to be horrible. There should be some kind of waiting period to think it all through and it should be the last recourse used in case of a life or death situation.

As said before find a non-radical extreme republican to run for office, and I do believe that you would have many like me vote for him for this reason of abortions like this. As long as the babies are taken care of through 18 after they are born.


----------



## Spoonman (Oct 10, 2013)

amazing,  why don't we just go back to the days of coat hangers


----------



## koshergrl (Oct 10, 2013)

They made coathangers legal from the start. That was the point.


----------



## koshergrl (Oct 10, 2013)

More women die today from botched abortions than ever died in the old days.


----------



## koshergrl (Oct 10, 2013)

Katzndogz said:


> Vox said:
> 
> 
> > Katzndogz said:
> ...


 
Except if the backalley abortionists were caught, they went to jail.

Not any more! Gosnell was the last. His clinic would be perfectly FINE in Cali!


----------



## koshergrl (Oct 10, 2013)

They'll probably move him to a *prison* in Cali when they start warming up the ovens..I mean the stirrups...for the assembly line abortion industry, to train the new recruits in the latest baby killing techniques.


----------



## Spoonman (Oct 10, 2013)

koshergrl said:


> They made coathangers legal from the start. That was the point.



they can't kill them fast enough.  They want their numbers to look like Mcdonalds.  Remember years ago when their sign used to say 1 million served.  Then years later 10 million and so on.   that will be abortions


----------



## Plasmaball (Oct 10, 2013)

TemplarKormac said:


> Plasmaball said:
> 
> 
> > TemplarKormac said:
> ...



False premise. ..typical for a lying fraud.


----------



## Plasmaball (Oct 10, 2013)

TemplarKormac said:


> Plasmaball said:
> 
> 
> > WelfareQueen said:
> ...



Lol pussy...


----------



## Stephanie (Oct 10, 2013)

Our society is hopeless

no redeeming qualities when they see abortion as a good thing


----------



## Spoonman (Oct 10, 2013)

i wonder if obamcare will pay for an abortion performed by someone who isn't a doctor


----------



## Katzndogz (Oct 10, 2013)

koshergrl said:


> Katzndogz said:
> 
> 
> > Vox said:
> ...



In a few years, we'll be talking about the way drug dealers used to go to jail.  Get rid of the crime by legalizing it.  There you go.


----------



## Plasmaball (Oct 10, 2013)

NLT said:


> Plasmaball said:
> 
> 
> > WelfareQueen said:
> ...



Lol hypocrite.


----------



## C_Clayton_Jones (Oct 10, 2013)

AngelsNDemons said:


> It is absolutely asinine to allow someone other than a trained, licensed physician to perform a procedure that can have life threatening complications...I really hope that some women are not that stupid...they may as well head to their local butcher shop.
> Unreal.



The hyperbole and demagoguery notwithstanding, do you have any objective, documented evidence in support of this? Do you have any evidence that those performing abortions in California have had no more training that the local butcher? 

Perhaps you should research the facts first before posting. 

Otherwise, its much more likely that your concern is partisan, where the success of the program will serve to undermine the legitimacy of laws in other states requiring burdensome, and needless, regulatory measures, designed only to interfere with a womans right to privacy.


----------



## C_Clayton_Jones (Oct 10, 2013)

TemplarKormac said:


> Hey, where are the Liberals chanting their screeds about Republicans not caring about women's health? Oh yeah, they're all quiet. This is disgusting and they f'ing know it.



Clearly the hypocrisy of the right knows no bounds. 

Where are our conservative opponents of government regulation and advocates of personal responsibility? 

If Brown were signing into law a measure allowing employers to regulate themselves concerning workplace safety, conservatives would be in full support.


----------



## Vox (Oct 10, 2013)

C_Clayton_Jones said:


> TemplarKormac said:
> 
> 
> > Hey, where are the Liberals chanting their screeds about Republicans not caring about women's health? Oh yeah, they're all quiet. This is disgusting and they f'ing know it.
> ...



It is not the hypocrisy.

we are laughing at you - because you so clearly do not care AT ALL about the abdominal cavity operation being SAFE and just shovel the hanger up women's vagina in the name of population control 

this is hilarious to watch - how you, leftard white men denigrate women. neither of you EVER would consider going to a butcher to perform much less dangerous procedure of vasectomy - only to a doctor. But a surgery with a possibility of death can be performed by a "trained" janitor - because it can be performed only on a woman.

Personally, for me, this decision is GREAT - it means that it is taking away the necessity to provide care for the procedure which I object to on absolute basis - to the back alleys which I have nothing to do with and never will be threatened to be forced to perform.


----------



## Vox (Oct 10, 2013)

Rct_Tsoul said:


> koshergrl said:
> 
> 
> > I see the female hating death cultists have arrived.
> ...



we know.

too bad the stupid leftard women don't.
they think that you gave them a "choice" when you just washed off your hands


----------



## WelfareQueen (Oct 10, 2013)

JoeB131 said:


> TemplarKormac said:
> 
> 
> > Plasmaball said:
> ...




This post is wrong and ignorant in every respect.  This person is completely talking out of their ass.  Period.  I am a master level health care profession.  I work in a big city ER.  Nurse Practitioners are not trained to do abortions and are not trained to perform "thousands of medical procedures."  A NP or PA is a mid-level adjunct to a Physician that in most medical contexts works directly under the supervision of an MD.   In ER's the only "procedures" a NP or PA does is put in stitches.  That's it.  

They diagnosis and treat minor to moderate healthcare aliments.  That is all.  Anything real serious, the MD steps in, and MD's do all procedures because they have much more extensive training.  Any women who would allow a non board certified OB/GYN to abort their fetus is taking their life in their hands.  

In my ER (we see over 100,000 people a year) NP's and PA are not allowed to work in Trauma and Critical Care areas, or in Chest Pain.  They would kill you if they did.  Now if you have a fever, or a mild ankle sprain, or a bad cough....no problem.  

As for Gosnell, the Government supervises dog kennels and nail salons better than abortion clinics.  Democrats don't give a shit about "women's health."  If they did, they would provide better supervision of abortion clinics and weed out the quacks like Gosnell.


----------



## WelfareQueen (Oct 10, 2013)

C_Clayton_Jones said:


> Telling the hypocrisy and inconsistency of the right, how states rights go out the window when it concerns something they oppose.
> 
> And this law is an example of how state measures can both reflect the will of the majority of the people and conform to Constitutional case law, unlike Proposition 8, for example.
> 
> ...




Another person talking completely out of their ass, and clearly is not a medical provider, and has no knowledge of provider training or credentials.  Any women who would allow a non board certified OB/GYN to abort her fetus is taking her life in her hands.  I cannot be more clear.  

Any women who reads this and is considering an abortion, please make sure clinic is reputable, and a board certified physician performs the procedure.  Unlike liberals, I actually give a damn about women's health.


----------



## Vox (Oct 10, 2013)

WelfareQueen said:


> JoeB131 said:
> 
> 
> > TemplarKormac said:
> ...



same is in the OR. they can close the skin and put dressings by themselves - that's it.
NP and PA are the most used to do the paperwork. that is their level of responsibility.


----------



## WelfareQueen (Oct 10, 2013)

Vox said:


> WelfareQueen said:
> 
> 
> > JoeB131 said:
> ...



Yep,

It is identical in Virginia.  Mid-level providers serve an important role, but they are not trained to do complex procedures.  Any woman who would allow a non OB/GYN to perform an abortion is foolish.  

Btw....I have four years undergrad, two years of graduate school, a one year internship, and a three year residency to get licensed.  I worked hard for those credentials, but I know what I am capable of doing and not doing, and what I am able to do under the scope of my license.  This California Law endangers women's health, and shows a contempt for women in general.


----------



## Vox (Oct 10, 2013)

WelfareQueen said:


> Btw....I have four years undergrad, two years of graduate school, a one year internship, and a three year residency to get licensed.  I worked hard for those credentials, but I know what I am capable of doing and not doing, and what I am able to do under the scope of my license.  *This California Law endangers women's health, and shows a contempt for women in genera*l.



It certainly does. I am actually amazed that women don't protest this. Look on this board - all our militant feministas are zipped, because instinctively thet FEEL it is wrong and devastating to THEM, but the party line is to parrot and cheer


----------



## WelfareQueen (Oct 10, 2013)

Vox said:


> WelfareQueen said:
> 
> 
> > Btw....I have four years undergrad, two years of graduate school, a one year internship, and a three year residency to get licensed.  I worked hard for those credentials, but I know what I am capable of doing and not doing, and what I am able to do under the scope of my license.  *This California Law endangers women's health, and shows a contempt for women in genera*l.
> ...




Again, I have to agree with you.  No way any true feminist or person who supports women's health issues would like this bill.  I guess that's why all are democrat ladies on this message board have gone in hiding.  Very sad.

And ladies, no guy on planet earth would have a non-MD do a vasectomy.  Why would you be stupid enough to have a non-MD do a surgical procedure in your uterus.  I mean, no offense, but are you fucking stupid?


----------



## martybegan (Oct 10, 2013)

JoeB131 said:


> martybegan said:
> 
> 
> > JoeB131 said:
> ...



Does the bill only allow NP's and PA's to administer chemical abortions? Or is this another political bill that is short on details and actual contnent, and just something a special interest group rammed through?


----------



## g5000 (Oct 10, 2013)

Jroc said:


> Who needs a doctor when youi're killing babies?..Women's rights?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Governor Brown has de-regulated abortions.

Interesting.


----------



## g5000 (Oct 10, 2013)

martybegan said:


> Does the bill only allow NP's and PA's to administer chemical abortions? Or is this another political bill that is short on details and actual contnent, and just something a special interest group rammed through?



Read it and find out for yourself: Bill Text - AB-154 Abortion.


----------



## g5000 (Oct 10, 2013)

WelfareQueen said:


> I am a master's level health care provider.  I work in a major inner city ER that sees over 100,000 patients a year.  I have been in practice for over 25 years.  In no way is a Nurse Practitioner or PA qualified to do unsupervised abortions.   It is beyond their scope of practice and license, and is a major potential health risk to women.
> 
> This law demonstrates an utter contempt for women and their health.  Period.  The only person who should be performing abortions are board certified OB/GYN specialists.



The only entity who should be performing abortions is God.


----------



## koshergrl (Oct 10, 2013)

WelfareQueen said:


> C_Clayton_Jones said:
> 
> 
> > Telling the hypocrisy and inconsistency of the right, how &#8216;states&#8217; rights&#8217; go out the window when it concerns something they oppose.
> ...


 
You forget how thoroughly the progressive bloc has trained generations of women, and men, to believe that abortion is a clean, easy, clinical procedure that poses no more risk than blowing your nose....and that it is the obligation of every confused, abused, bullied woman to climb up and spread her legs for the good of the country if she gets pregnant.

It's all based on lies. From Kinsey, to R v. W, to now. Everything they think and believe is lies. Abortion is risky, women do still die, they are killing babies, it doesn't protect anyone from anything but makes EVERYTHING worse. They lie about the numbers that are performed, about how it's done, and about the circumstances and the age of the babies killed. They refuse to answer to ANYONE...and people are SURPRISED when there are butcher shops like Gosnell's that run for years and years and years with the blessings of PP and the whole progressive establishment?

Gosnell is a progressive HERO. That is why they're lowering the standards in Cali. So they can enable more people just like him to butcher women and children...only legally.


----------



## mamooth (Oct 10, 2013)

NP's can be certified midwives, and childbirth is way more dangerous than abortion.

Hence, it's illogical and insane to claim NP's are unqualified to do the much safer abortion procedures.

Vox, WelfareQueen, why do you hate women so much that you'd allow NP's to be midwives? Is it that you want women to die?

The kooks, even the "health care professionals", don't seem to know even the most basic facts about medical abortions and childbirth. Such as how easy and safe a vacuum aspiration abortion is. But then, if they weren't dogshit ignorant of the facts, they wouldn't be pro-lifers.

Of course, pro-lifers are the crowd that created Dr. Gosnell. He's the pro-life poster boy, and the goal of pro-lifers is to create more Dr. Gosnells. Once you make it impossible for good clinics to exist, hacks step in to fill the void. Pro-lifers adore that, since they fully approve of abortion as long as it's humiliating and dangerous. Vox proved that with this line.



> Personally, for me, this decision is GREAT - it means that it is taking away the necessity to provide care for the procedure which I object to on absolute basis - to the back alleys which I have nothing to do with and never will be threatened to be forced to perform.



Most pro-life liars don't give a shit about life. Never have. They're mainly just a bunch of sicko pervs who get off on punishing women.


----------



## koshergrl (Oct 10, 2013)

Oh look, more lies right on cue.


----------



## PredFan (Oct 10, 2013)

I say let them. If these idiots want to go to the local 7-11 and get thier abortions well, they are probably going to be democrats anyway and we don't need those morons breeding.


----------



## Vox (Oct 10, 2013)

mamooth said:


> NP's can be certified midwives, and childbirth is way more dangerous than abortion.
> 
> Hence, it's illogical and insane to claim NP's are unqualified to do the much safer abortion procedures.



above is certified militant ignorance. Childbirth is way safer than abortion, because it is natural. Abortion is unnatural and therefore much more risky.
Giving birth under the supervision of a midwife in a hospital has been done for ages. Abortions have not been performed by nurses - nurses are not trained to make a medical judgement and it is often needed when performing surgery. 



> Vox, WelfareQueen, why do you hate women so much that you'd allow NP's to be midwives? Is it that you want women to die?



are you off haloperidol? what does this incoherent blubber supposed to mean?


> The kooks, even the "health care professionals", don't seem to know even the most basic facts about medical abortions and childbirth. Such as how easy and safe a vacuum aspiration abortion is. But then, if they weren't dogshit ignorant of the facts, they wouldn't be pro-lifers.


the propagandist male chouvinistic left does not know anything either about abortion or anatomy or physiology of a woman and a human being. their ignorant definition that a baby in utero is not a human being but a "cluster of cells" is the best proof of the total ignorance.


> Of course, pro-lifers are the crowd that created Dr. Gosnell. He's the pro-life poster boy, and the goal of pro-lifers is to create more Dr. Gosnells. Once you make it impossible for good clinics to exist, hacks step in to fill the void. Pro-lifers adore that, since they fully approve of abortion as long as it's humiliating and dangerous. Vox proved that with this line.



typical leftard blabbing while in ostrich position of denial 




> Most pro-life liars don't give a shit about life. Never have. They're mainly just a bunch of sicko pervs who get off on punishing women.



blah-blah-blah-blah


----------



## politicalnot (Oct 10, 2013)

WelfareQueen said:


> JoeB131 said:
> 
> 
> > TemplarKormac said:
> ...



Total BS.  I know many PA's that put doctors to SHAME>  Just because you have MD,DO behind your name doesn't mean you can do shit.  Most can't manage a typical everyday patient for diabetes, heart problems, etc.

There are PA's out there that are MORE competent than most doctors.  EXPERIENCE, EXPERIENCE, EXPERIENCE and the will to learn goes a long long way.

Nurse Practioners aren't on the same level as PA's in most cases.  They are way more specialized generally than a PA.  Nurse Practitioners are the same way and can be more competent than a doctor given experience.

I've worked around healthcare for many years.  The FIRST thing you should ask a healthcare professional is where in their class they graduated.  I'll take the top PA student over the bottom half of the medical class every damn time.

Give me a PA with an ER certification on his license and I"ll take him over a general practitioner every time if I'm having a heart attack.


----------



## Vox (Oct 10, 2013)

politicalnot said:


> WelfareQueen said:
> 
> 
> > JoeB131 said:
> ...



total bullshit of an ignorant militant.
There are no PAs which are better than doctors, neither there are NPs of the category - as they are NEVER on the same level of training and responsibility. It is like comparing a kettle and a bottle. Both are holding water but serve different purposes.
Both NPs and PAs work under supervision of MD or DO.
They may boast in front of you how important they are ( if they are insecure in their abilities and have some internal complexes) but the ones which are REALLY good - will never do that as they are so good that they KNOW their limitations.
The ones which are considering themselves equal or better than physicians - are simply fail to know what they don't know 
Stay away from them.


----------



## g5000 (Oct 10, 2013)

Vox said:


> Abortions have not been performed by nurses - nurses are not trained to make a medical judgement and it is often needed when performing surgery.



The bill does not authorize nurses to perform surgical abortions.  Only non-surgical ones.  It authorizes them to perform aspirations or administer abortifacients after certification for those methods.


----------



## PredFan (Oct 10, 2013)

So let's see, back in the late 60s and early 70s we were told that we had to make abortion legal because we had to get the women out of the back allies and back rooms and get them to doctors to save their lives. Now we are told that they should be allowed to have abortions without doctors. You liberals are an insane bunch.


----------



## Vox (Oct 10, 2013)

g5000 said:


> Vox said:
> 
> 
> > Abortions have not been performed by nurses - nurses are not trained to make a medical judgement and it is often needed when performing surgery.
> ...



in order to take morning-after pill one does not need anybody else except pharmacist.

I won't advice anybody to get a chemical abortion. Too risky. If you need one - go for a surgical in a surgicenter.


----------



## Vox (Oct 10, 2013)

PredFan said:


> So let's see, back in the late 60s and early 70s we were told that we had to make abortion legal because we had to get the women out of the back allies and back rooms and get them to doctors to save their lives. Now we are told that they should be allowed to have abortions without doctors. You liberals are an insane bunch.



we made the glorious circle and ended where we started - now legalizing back alley ones to save costs


----------



## Vox (Oct 10, 2013)

g5000 said:


> Vox said:
> 
> 
> > Abortions have not been performed by nurses - nurses are not trained to make a medical judgement and it is often needed when performing surgery.
> ...



aspiration IS a surgical abortion.

gosh, people, you are stupid.

not mean to be offensive - but you are simply ignorant.

If you get in and disrupt the tissue - it IS surgery.


----------



## Sunshine (Oct 10, 2013)

Vox said:


> politicalnot said:
> 
> 
> > WelfareQueen said:
> ...



You are wrong.  I did everything the MDs where I worked did.  And only in the first 3 or 4 years of practice was there an MD in my specialty on site.  The VA is making their NPs independent providers.  When that happens the rest of the nation will follow.  NPs and PAs are just like optometrists, we are mid level providers.  And the things mid levels can do and are allowed to do has increased exponentially since we got out there in specialties.  NPs doing surgical procedures are an inevitable result of this.  You simply don't know what you are talking about.


----------



## HenryBHough (Oct 10, 2013)

I'm all for cheap abortions, regardless of who provides them to liberals.  At minimum it will make one positive contribution to the gene pool; at best TWO.


----------



## koshergrl (Oct 10, 2013)

No, it doesn't matter who advocates it. It's always wrong when the government funds and encourages the killing of innocents. In this case, it's wrong for women, it's wrong for children, and it's wrong for humanity.


----------



## HenryBHough (Oct 10, 2013)

koshergrl said:


> No, it doesn't matter who advocates it. It's always wrong when the government funds and encourages the killing of innocents. In this case, it's wrong for women, it's wrong for children, and it's wrong for humanity.



Show me an innocent liberal.......

Just one.

Please.


----------



## TemplarKormac (Oct 10, 2013)

C_Clayton_Jones said:


> TemplarKormac said:
> 
> 
> > Hey, where are the Liberals chanting their screeds about Republicans not caring about women's health? Oh yeah, they're all quiet. This is disgusting and they f'ing know it.
> ...



LOL.

Where are you when a woman's life is in danger? Oh that's right, you're armchair quarterbacking at home spouting faux outrage over how she will come to great harm if she is denied an abortion, when you don't give a damn if California passes Non-Physician abortion law that presents an greater danger to her health! You idiot.

You are the hypocrite Clayton.


----------



## koshergrl (Oct 10, 2013)

Men who fight this battle *for* women are typically the men who also exploit them.

Men who appreicate porn, and sex that is paid for, and who are incapable of entering into meaningful relationships with women, but who feel they have a *right* to have sex with them anyway.

Or, alternately, sex traffickers.


----------



## WelfareQueen (Oct 10, 2013)

mamooth said:


> NP's can be certified midwives, and childbirth is way more dangerous than abortion.
> 
> Hence, it's illogical and insane to claim NP's are unqualified to do the much safer abortion procedures.
> 
> ...




Another person talking out of their ass.  No NP can act as a midwife without a great deal of additional training and certification.  NP are not trained or licensed as an OB/GYN specialist and should be be performing abortions.  Period.


----------



## BDBoop (Oct 10, 2013)

C_Clayton_Jones said:


> TemplarKormac said:
> 
> 
> > Hey, where are the Liberals chanting their screeds about Republicans not caring about women's health? Oh yeah, they're all quiet. This is disgusting and they f'ing know it.
> ...



Yup. Because only the fetus is worthy of life. Once born? "Let him die."


----------



## TemplarKormac (Oct 10, 2013)

BDBoop said:


> C_Clayton_Jones said:
> 
> 
> > TemplarKormac said:
> ...



Sure, but the woman is just as meaningless. Just ask Jerry Brown. "Let her die."


----------



## koshergrl (Oct 10, 2013)

BDBoop said:


> C_Clayton_Jones said:
> 
> 
> > TemplarKormac said:
> ...


 
Of all the stupid premises the baby killers cling to, this is the most patently ridiculous.

As if abortion increases the likelihood of babies surviving.


----------



## hazlnut (Oct 10, 2013)




----------



## WelfareQueen (Oct 10, 2013)

politicalnot said:


> WelfareQueen said:
> 
> 
> > JoeB131 said:
> ...





Completely wrong.  You have no idea what you are talking about.  Look up the training and credentialing required for an MD versus a PA.  They're called "Physician Assistant" for a reason.


----------



## Vox (Oct 10, 2013)

koshergrl said:


> Men who fight this battle *for* women are typically the men who also exploit them.
> 
> Men who appreicate porn, and sex that is paid for, and who are incapable of entering into meaningful relationships with women, but who feel they have a *right* to have sex with them anyway.
> 
> Or, alternately, sex traffickers.



Or the ones who just seem to really enjoy their role of sex object only. Sex objects do not need relationships which involve empathy, understanding, commitment and responsibility.


----------



## koshergrl (Oct 10, 2013)

The men who go to the mat for the abortion industry are without exception foul, disgusting pieces of humanity.

The women are primarily just misled, abused, confused and thoroughly groomed by the industry or by specific people.


----------



## Luissa (Oct 10, 2013)

Matthew said:


> Good for Brown.... Abortion should come with risk.



"During the pilot program, which began in 2007, some 8,000 aspiration abortions were provided by nondoctors. Complications rates for doctors and nondoctors were similar, below 2 percent in both cases."

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/10/10/us/california-expands-availability-of-abortions.html?_r=0


----------



## Vox (Oct 10, 2013)

Sunshine said:


> Vox said:
> 
> 
> > politicalnot said:
> ...




The VA is socialized medicine. And you failed to mention that VA are always full of residents -physicians in training


----------



## JoeB131 (Oct 10, 2013)

koshergrl said:


> More women die today from botched abortions than ever died in the old days.



Abortion is safer than childbirth.  

Although both are pretty damned safe.


----------



## JoeB131 (Oct 10, 2013)

WelfareQueen said:


> [
> 
> 
> This post is wrong and ignorant in every respect.  This person is completely talking out of their ass.  Period.  I am a master level health care profession.  I work in a big city ER.  Nurse Practitioners are not trained to do abortions and are not trained to perform "thousands of medical procedures."  A NP or PA is a mid-level adjunct to a Physician that in most medical contexts works directly under the supervision of an MD.   In ER's the only "procedures" a NP or PA does is put in stitches.  That's it.
> ...



Gosnell existed because most of his clients were too poor to afford a competent doctor.  

Nothing more, nothing less.   

When you have 50 million uninsured, that's what you are going to get.


----------



## WelfareQueen (Oct 10, 2013)

Luissa said:


> Matthew said:
> 
> 
> > Good for Brown.... Abortion should come with risk.
> ...



Before mid-level providers could perform any aspirations they received a great deal of additional training and certification under the pilot program.  More MSM bullshit.


----------



## Luissa (Oct 10, 2013)

WelfareQueen said:


> Luissa said:
> 
> 
> > Matthew said:
> ...



Um okay


----------



## WelfareQueen (Oct 10, 2013)

JoeB131 said:


> WelfareQueen said:
> 
> 
> > [
> ...




The Government fucked up and failed to protect women.  There was a complete lack of oversight and supervision by State and Local Government even after numerous complaints were made, including the deaths of a number of women getting abortions.  

Gosnell was a quack and the Government failed to protect vulnerable women.  Why is it so difficult to admit the obvious?


----------



## WelfareQueen (Oct 10, 2013)

Luissa said:


> WelfareQueen said:
> 
> 
> > Luissa said:
> ...




For any health care provider it is all about training and credentialing.  An ER doc literally works hundreds if not thousands of traumas during their residency under direct supervision of a board certified MD before they ever practice independently.  

I have no objection to an NP or PA performing abortions as long as they go through the same training as an OB/GYN.  That would be a 2 to 3 year supervised residency in which they perform many abortions under direct clinical supervision.  That is what I had to do in my specialty, and more importantly, it is what is in the best interests of women's health.  

Shouldn't that be what everyone is interested in?  What is in the best interest of the woman's health?


----------



## koshergrl (Oct 10, 2013)

Luissa said:


> Matthew said:
> 
> 
> > Good for Brown.... Abortion should come with risk.
> ...



As all babykillers who have argued with me before know, and you are one of them, those numbers mean absolutely nothing since the clinics are not required by law to report, and complications and deaths are under reported...to the extent of not being reported at all. Women who die of blood poisoning do not have "blood poisoning caused by botched late term abortion 3 weeks ago" written on their death certs. 

As you are aware. 

What makes me disgusted are the WOMEN who know these things, who are willing to lie to other young women, and encourage them to risk their lives, in order to protect their *right* to abort future blunders.


----------



## Jroc (Oct 11, 2013)

Spoonman said:


> i wonder if obamcare will pay for an abortion performed by someone who isn't a doctor



It's up to the death panel i suppose


----------



## koshergrl (Oct 11, 2013)

WelfareQueen said:


> JoeB131 said:
> 
> 
> > WelfareQueen said:
> ...



Because joeb is a lying dick, and a HUGE fan of Gosnell's. He yucked and cracked jokes and cheered the guy on all the way through the trial. He said women were lying, and nobody has ever been coerced into an abortion, and called Gosnell a hero. 

Oh, and he also knows that Gosnell charged a FORTUNE (in cash) for the services he provided. Joe coined the phrase "he owed them a dead fetus" during the trial. He called the dead babies medical waste, including the ones murdered after they were born.

Joe is Gosnell's biggest fan.


----------



## C_Clayton_Jones (Oct 11, 2013)

koshergrl said:


> Luissa said:
> 
> 
> > Matthew said:
> ...



Abortion isnt baby killing, its ignorant idiocy to suggest otherwise. 

And it comes as no surprise you elect to ignore the facts, where complications for doctors and nondoctors were similar and rare, instead engaging in disgraceful demagoguery.


----------



## koshergrl (Oct 11, 2013)

Meh. Baby, fetus, adolescent...all names for different developmental stages of the same thing..a human. It's killing an innocent human, and nobody has the right. 

Are you a Gosnell fan too? I know there's a whole circle of you guys who loved him...I suspect you network. You're disgusting pigs. Now fuck off.


----------



## TemplarKormac (Oct 11, 2013)

C_Clayton_Jones said:


> koshergrl said:
> 
> 
> > Luissa said:
> ...



Then what is it exactly?

Sure, just ask Gosnell how well non physician abortions worked out for him. You engage in disgraceful demagoguery when you contend that you can endanger a woman's health by denying her the right to abortion, but then say non-physician abortions will in no way endanger her health. Preposterous.


----------



## ShaklesOfBigGov (Oct 11, 2013)

WelfareQueen said:


> get_involved said:
> 
> 
> > Nurse practitioners and physician assistants are qualified to do these early procedures. They won't be legalized back-alley abortions.
> ...



I was under the impression we had a government which enjoys pushing regulations and certifications, to promote and entrust that we have proven qualified experienced licensed professionals performing the tasks they are assigned to do? It's always so good to hear the level of importance we place in restricting some professions, such as a parent's decision to home school, while easing the importance of others. Could the realization of regulations and cost cutting measures to be implemented under Obamacare, leading to a possibility of large number of doctors leaving the field, be behind such new laxed measures?


----------



## Plasmaball (Oct 11, 2013)

PredFan said:


> I say let them. If these idiots want to go to the local 7-11 and get thier abortions well, they are probably going to be democrats anyway and we don't need those morons breeding.



I heard you get a special 32 oz cup when you do. 
Picture of a fetus or something..


----------



## JoeB131 (Oct 11, 2013)

WelfareQueen said:


> JoeB131 said:
> 
> 
> > WelfareQueen said:
> ...



The government can only act if someone complains.  What you all like to forget is that these women were not tossed into the back of a van.  They went to Gosnell, paid him money, and went home satisfied with the result.  At least until they got STD infections from his unsterlized instruments.  

It should also be pointed out that while Gosnell left his poor patients of color in the cat-shit infested ward, his white patients got the nice clean exam rooms.


----------



## JoeB131 (Oct 11, 2013)

koshergrl said:


> [
> 
> Because joeb is a lying dick, and a HUGE fan of Gosnell's. He yucked and cracked jokes and cheered the guy on all the way through the trial. He said women were lying, and nobody has ever been coerced into an abortion, and called Gosnell a hero.
> 
> ...



I think the joke is that you bible thumpers really cared about these women of color or their so-called 'babies".   

When you support universal healthcare and welfare without shame, then I will take you seriously when you bitch about the women who decide to terminate.  

That trial was a farce.  They went from "hundreds" of babies to three (two of whom weren't terminated by Gosnell himself.)  They gave immunity to all his co-conspirators, both the patients and the clinic workers, and when a  jury FINALLY gave them a guilty verdict, they copped a deal with Gosnell to make sure he didn't appeal to someone who can actually read a lawbook.


----------



## koshergrl (Oct 11, 2013)

Told ya. He's a psychopath.

These are the men who want legal abortion. The same men who wanted legal abortion during WWII. Men who despise women..and when did color become a part of it? It isn't for me..but it obviously is for joe.


----------



## JoeB131 (Oct 11, 2013)

koshergrl said:


> Told ya. He's a psychopath.
> 
> These are the men who want legal abortion. The same men who wanted legal abortion during WWII. Men who despise women..and when did color become a part of it? It isn't for me..but it obviously is for joe.



No, it is a big part of the problem. 

Rich, White women get nice safe legal abortions in clean clinics.  They did even when Abortion was "illegal". 

Poor women of color get quacks like Gosnell. 

Oh, here was the thing.  Why did women have abortions during WWII?  Oh, because they were getting laid while their husbands were off at war, and no one really believed the "Baby left on a doorstep" stories.


----------



## koshergrl (Oct 11, 2013)

Back on ignore you go, psychopath. I'm not interested in talking to you. I just like to remind everybody of who you really are, now and then.


----------



## TemplarKormac (Oct 11, 2013)

JoeB131 said:


> WelfareQueen said:
> 
> 
> > JoeB131 said:
> ...



What the hell? Gosnell was a black man you dumbfuck! 

Argument destroyed! What on Earth does race have to do with abortion? Such rank stupidity.


----------



## koshergrl (Oct 11, 2013)

Joe is scum. I told you, men who support abortion are the lowest of the low. They hate women, and generally speaking they are racist as well...because in this country, the percentage of minority women getting abortions is vastly disproportionate to the entire population. It's almost always a race thing with abortion...race, and/or power over women, and abject sexual depravity.

joeb is the trifecta.


----------



## JoeB131 (Oct 11, 2013)

TemplarKormac said:


> JoeB131 said:
> 
> 
> > WelfareQueen said:
> ...



Why is the fact he was a self-loathing black man have anything to do with what I just said. True, he's not as repulsive as other self-loathing blacks who become Republicans like Herman Cain and Mia Love.  Those people are just sad.  

White women with money got good care. 
Women of color got shitty care. 

The answer to Gosnell is universal health care where everyone gets the same treatment. 

Wow. What a concept!


----------



## koshergrl (Oct 11, 2013)

Shut up, scum.


----------



## JoeB131 (Oct 11, 2013)

koshergrl said:


> Joe is scum. I told you, men who support abortion are the lowest of the low. They hate women, and generally speaking they are racist as well...because in this country, the percentage of minority women getting abortions is vastly disproportionate to the entire population. It's almost always a race thing with abortion...race, and/or power over women, and abject sexual depravity.
> 
> joeb is the trifecta.



The reason why women of color get more abortions is because they have less access to other forms of birth control.  

And that's all abortion is. a form of birth control. 

Deal with it. 

Women walk into abortion clinics under their own power. They pay with their own money, and they make their own choices.  

Again, stop putting off your bad decisions on me because I refuse to get involved.  You're like the person who threatens to jump off a building seeing if anyone cares.  

I don't.


----------



## strollingbones (Oct 11, 2013)

where were all these protests about womens rights when va wanted to shove something up a womans vag before she had an abortion....where was all this outcry?


----------



## TemplarKormac (Oct 11, 2013)

Save it. You are no longer worth talking to, Joe.


----------



## TemplarKormac (Oct 11, 2013)

strollingbones said:


> where were all these protests about womens rights when va wanted to shove something up a womans vag before she had an abortion....where was all this outcry?



There's a difference between a vaginal probe and the grave, apparently.


----------



## JoeB131 (Oct 11, 2013)

koshergrl said:


> Back on ignore you go, psychopath. I'm not interested in talking to you. I just like to remind everybody of who you really are, now and then.



Oh, please, just because some ex-boyfriend talked you into something, quit putting it off on me.


----------



## JoeB131 (Oct 11, 2013)

TemplarKormac said:


> Save it. You are no longer worth talking to, Joe.



Yeah, I know, it hurts when you Bible Thumping morons get your heads stomped in by reality. 

Reality. Women are going to get abortions.  Nothing you can do about it.  

"Women who are against abortion are ones you wouldn't want to fuck anyway"- George Carlin.


----------



## strollingbones (Oct 11, 2013)

yall do realize most abortions are chemical now?   it is a big business and neither party is going to stop it...the majority of americans endorse 'limited abortion rights'


----------



## JoeB131 (Oct 11, 2013)

TemplarKormac said:


> strollingbones said:
> 
> 
> > where were all these protests about womens rights when va wanted to shove something up a womans vag before she had an abortion....where was all this outcry?
> ...



Medical Waste incinerators aren't "a grave".


----------



## koshergrl (Oct 11, 2013)

The lies are coming fast and furious.


----------



## strollingbones (Oct 11, 2013)

women have aborted since they figured out how to do it...


----------



## koshergrl (Oct 11, 2013)

strollingbones said:


> yall do realize most abortions are chemical now?   it is a big business and neither party is going to stop it...the majority of americans endorse 'limited abortion rights'



Lie.

"&#8226; Medication abortion accounted for 17% of all nonhospital abortions,  and about one-quarter of abortions before nine weeks&#8217; gestation, in  2008.[2]"

Facts on Induced Abortion in the United States

Unless you think 32  is "most" of 100?


----------



## strollingbones (Oct 11, 2013)

data from 2008?


----------



## koshergrl (Oct 11, 2013)

You have something more current? No? Then shut your stupid lips.

From Guttmacher..this is Planned Parenthood's PR team:

"
*Facts on Induced Abortion in the United States  *

 July 2013
*INCIDENCE OF ABORTION*


----------



## JoeB131 (Oct 11, 2013)

strollingbones said:


> women have aborted since they figured out how to do it...



And that's the point they ignore.  

If they were serious about reducing the number of abortions, they would want to do what France does.   France has paid family leave, strong worker protections (unlike two co-workers of mine who were fired when they got pregnant) and universal health care.  As a result, they have half the abortions we have. 

But being bible thumping morons, they want to do what the Philippines do. Abortion is illegal, but they have 500,000 to 800,000 abortions a year.  Aborted fetuses are left on the steps of churches, either to get their souls into heaven or to show contempt for the Church at its policies.


----------



## koshergrl (Oct 11, 2013)

I'm going to puke now.

You guys have at. You deserve each other.


----------



## TemplarKormac (Oct 11, 2013)

strollingbones said:


> data from 2008?



Comes from a report by the Guttmacher Institute dated July 2013


----------



## JoeB131 (Oct 11, 2013)

koshergrl said:


> You have something more current? No? Then shut your stupid lips.
> 
> From Guttmacher..this is Planned Parenthood's PR team:
> 
> ...



No link that goes anywhere...  typical.


----------



## koshergrl (Oct 11, 2013)

It's the same link, you moron:

Facts on Induced Abortion in the United States

*Facts on Induced Abortion in the United States  *

 July 2013
*INCIDENCE OF ABORTION *


----------



## koshergrl (Oct 11, 2013)

I can do this for days.

You see, you can't win with thinking people when all you do is lie. The only way you can win with lies is to target the vulnerable, dependent, and frightened. You know, children and such. But it won't work with me, or any other adult with half a mind and a whole soul.


----------



## strollingbones (Oct 11, 2013)

the report is from 2013...but the data she sited is from 2008


----------



## strollingbones (Oct 11, 2013)

koshergrl said:


> *I can do this for days.
> *
> You see, you can't win with thinking people when all you do is lie. The only way you can win with lies is to target the vulnerable, dependent, and frightened. You know, children and such. But it won't work with me, or any other adult with half a mind and a whole soul.




and yet a few posts ago, you had this busy full rich real life?  and yet you will give days to this thread?  which is it?


----------



## JoeB131 (Oct 11, 2013)

koshergrl said:


> I can do this for days.
> 
> You see, you can't win with thinking people when all you do is lie. The only way you can win with lies is to target the vulnerable, dependent, and frightened. You know, children and such. But it won't work with me, or any other adult with half a mind and a whole soul.



I don't think you have half a mind.  

I think you are just angry that people don't agree with your position on the subject.  

Abortion is going to happen, and the only reason why the GOP is still talking about it is because they can get STUPID people like you to vote against working people's interests to make the wealthy richer.  

Abortion is just as legal now as it was in 1974.  The Christian Right's 40 year temper tantrum has gotten it nowhere.  

There are ways to reduce abortions, but it would actually involve liberal policies, and you guys have proven you don't give a fuck about poor children when they aren't in fetal form.


----------



## koshergrl (Oct 11, 2013)

No shit. Because that's the most current information anyone has, you idiot. Though of course ALL the numbers are meaningless....most states don't require the clinics to cough up any information at all. We've been through this all before. Quit lying and go lay down.


----------



## JoeB131 (Oct 11, 2013)

koshergrl said:


> No shit. Because that's the most current information anyone has, you idiot. Though of course ALL the numbers are meaningless....most states don't require the clinics to cough up any information at all. We've been through this all before. Quit lying and go lay down.



Translation- I'm going to use statistics to boolster my point, unless they don't, in which case I'm going to claim that there's a vast conspiracy to hide the "real" numbers that show how EEEEEEEEvil abortion is.  Even though most women just don't care and will keep having them anyway.  

BUt it's all Mr. Man's Fault.  And the Porn Industry!   

Ever picture KG as Piper Laurie in "_Carrie_"?  I have.


----------



## Stephanie (Oct 11, 2013)

well,  this is showing how much the commies in their government really CARE about the people in it California.

man oh man, and people are cheering this

now you are free to go to someone and if they use a coat hanger, as long as it's a WOMAN CHOICE I guess

damn this getting sad,  anyway to kill off the offspring of people

Brown is one of those commies who see this as a good thing for his views on "population CONTROL"


----------



## koshergrl (Oct 11, 2013)

yup yup.


----------



## Spoonman (Oct 11, 2013)

i wonder if this is an attempt to make the abortion numbers look lower.  how many might not be reported now?


----------



## Plasmaball (Oct 11, 2013)

strollingbones said:


> koshergrl said:
> 
> 
> > *I can do this for days.
> ...



well this is allie, who never uses real facts and lies basically in all her posts.


----------



## koshergrl (Oct 11, 2013)

Spoonman said:


> i wonder if this is an attempt to make the abortion numbers look lower.  how many might not be reported now?



They aren't reported now. California has no reporting requirement. As a *courtesy* they provide some numbers, but it's an open joke...nobody has to abide by any rules whatever. The only information they have are guesses. And their guesses are outright lies meant to hide the truths of the industry...gosnell is not a rarity.


----------



## kaz (Oct 11, 2013)

Jroc said:


> Who needs a doctor when youi're killing babies?..Women's rights?



Just so you know, women are not prevented from seeing a doctor...

The idea that government has the right to tell anyone ever who they are allowed to get medical care from is an abomination of liberty.


----------



## Spoonman (Oct 11, 2013)

koshergrl said:


> Spoonman said:
> 
> 
> > i wonder if this is an attempt to make the abortion numbers look lower.  how many might not be reported now?
> ...



i want the ability to take that approach with my income


----------



## mamooth (Oct 11, 2013)

As we see far too often, the real world data shows exactly the opposite of what Koshrgrl claims.

Yes Virginia, a study has been done on the safety of early abortions, comparing  doctors vs. NP's. They should have assumed that was the case, being how the reality-based community can always back up claims with hard data. Alas, their crazy cult told them to babble nonsense, hence they went off with their usual wild conspiracy theories, and now look very silly.

Oh, the study.

Safety of Aspiration Abortion Performed by Nurse Practitioners, Certified Nurse Midwives, and Physician Assistants Under a California Legal Waiver

Summary:
No difference in the rate of serious complications. (6 out of 11,487)
A minor difference in the rate of minor complications. (but still far safer than being forced to wait for a later term abortion.)

So, this bill prevents Gosnells by increasing access to early legal abortion, with no sacrifice in safety. Since the pro-life goal is to create as many Gosnells as possible by restricting access to early abortion, pro-lifers will oppose the bill, no matter what the facts show. Their fear is that it will be a big success and spread to more states, undermining their national "make every abortionist a Gosnell" strategy.


----------



## Spoonman (Oct 11, 2013)

mamooth said:


> As we see far too often, the real world data shows exactly the opposite of what Koshrgrl claims.
> 
> Yes Virginia, a study has been done on the safety of early abortions, comparing  doctors vs. NP's. They should have assumed that was the case, being how the reality-based community can always back up claims with hard data. Alas, their crazy cult told them to babble nonsense, hence they went off with their usual wild conspiracy theories, and now look very silly.
> 
> ...



this whole argument is really kind of stupid, because in the end what really matters is either way, an innocent baby still dies.


----------



## koshergrl (Oct 11, 2013)

Yup.


----------



## R.C. Christian (Oct 11, 2013)

California makes me sick.


----------



## kaz (Oct 11, 2013)

Spoonman said:


> mamooth said:
> 
> 
> > As we see far too often, the real world data shows exactly the opposite of what Koshrgrl claims.
> ...



good thing we have government to be sure nothing bad happens


----------



## Stephanie (Oct 11, 2013)

R.C. Christian said:


> California makes me sick.



they are on the way of Detroit their taxing and ridiculous regulations they are putting on businesses is driving them out...then they will ONLY have all the people on their wonderful government handouts...it will be the life of luxury...the life of JULIAS

 but all the elitist HOLLYWEIRD people and politicians like Pelos, Boxer, Brown  can live in their liberal utopia..of course it will be behind their high gated walls with armed guards...but hey, they can afford it


----------



## koshergrl (Oct 11, 2013)

oh look, a bunch of people who think there are too many people on the planet, and who consistently ignore the reality of abortion...who fight to prevent any oversight or restrictions or even basic reporting requirements...say it's safe!

I feel so much better.

Sheesh. Can you be more dense, please? Dr. Mengele says twin studies are good for twins.


----------



## Spoonman (Oct 11, 2013)

ok, if abortion is really a solution to a problem, how about this.  We abort all anchor babies.  that would solve a problem


----------



## kaz (Oct 11, 2013)

Spoonman said:


> ok, if abortion is really a solution to a problem, how about this.  We abort all anchor babies.  that would solve a problem



Abortion, when government suddenly becomes the decision maker...

It's a woman's body.  I am entitled to my opinion, I am not entitled to make her decision for her.  Either way.


----------



## koshergrl (Oct 11, 2013)

I think the people who think other people should die should take the first hit.

I think that anyway, but if it diverts them from their fixed intent to commit infanticide and, incidentally, to treat women like shit...well, I'm for it.


----------



## Stephanie (Oct 11, 2013)

I can picture it now, on every street corner there will a store where go you go get your abortion...

flashing neon signs will read, one stop shopping for your abortion, quick and easy, cheap too

of course they will have to advertise in Spanish too

you call one it will be, press one for Spanish, two for English


----------



## kaz (Oct 11, 2013)

koshergrl said:


> I think the people who think other people should die should take the first hit.
> 
> I think that anyway, but if it diverts them from their fixed intent to commit infanticide and, incidentally, to treat women like shit...well, I'm for it.



Arguing like a liberal is beneath you.  I know you're smarter than that.

To believe a woman has a right to her body isn't believing other people should die or having a fixed intent to commit infanticide.  

I'll tell you what I tell liberals when they do that.  Your inability to accurately address my actual view doesn't speak well for your conviction in the truth of your own argument.


----------



## Spoonman (Oct 11, 2013)

Stephanie said:


> I can picture it now, on every street corner there will a store where go you go get your abortion...
> 
> flashing neon signs will read, one stop shopping for your abortion, quick and easy, cheap too
> 
> ...



hey, now that cameras have gone digital and no one needs developing, we've got all those empty photomats.  why let all that unused real estate go to waste.


----------



## kaz (Oct 11, 2013)

Spoonman said:


> Stephanie said:
> 
> 
> > I can picture it now, on every street corner there will a store where go you go get your abortion...
> ...



Government should have bailed out photomats, it's a travesty....


----------



## waronwhistleblo (Oct 11, 2013)




----------



## Vox (Oct 11, 2013)

C_Clayton_Jones said:


> koshergrl said:
> 
> 
> > Luissa said:
> ...


Except you did not read the study, if there was a study and don't know who payed for it, what methodology was used, the sampling of the group and so on. Without it the information is useless to say the least.

Women having mortal complications of an abortion do not die in abortion clinic unless it is a complication from anesthetic administration( which is a different totally issue her) but from sepsis or hemrrhage which can be delayed even to weeks - they would never be even considered by such thpe of comparison.

There are some comparative statistics for some practices with MDs and nurses providing - NONE of them withstand scientific research scrutiny and are useless. If that would be so easy that a monkey could be trAined, nobody would spend half a million dollars and more than a decade of time to train an MD or DO


----------



## WelfareQueen (Oct 11, 2013)

As I said before, it's fine if an NP or PA wants to do abortions....just do a 2-3 year supervised clinical residency in OB/GYN like an MD does and everything is cool.  We want what is best for the patient, don't we? 

After all....isn't this about a woman's health?


----------



## Stephanie (Oct 11, 2013)

WelfareQueen said:


> As I said before, it's fine if an NP or PA wants to do abortions....just do a 2-3 year supervised clinical residency in OB/GYN like an MD does and everything is cool.  We want what is best for the patient, don't we?
> 
> After all....isn't this about a woman's health?



I'd say good luck with that one

they already have illegal dentistry set ups in California.....they have messed up a lot people...
I know about it because I used to live there back in the 90's..
to me this bill just gives the go ahead for more of those except for abortions...

oh well, the people there don't care, I don't either


----------



## Vox (Oct 12, 2013)

strollingbones said:


> the report is from 2013...but the data she
> 
> sited is from 2008



YOU don't show ANY data, just blah-blah-blah


----------



## Vox (Oct 12, 2013)

kaz said:


> Jroc said:
> 
> 
> > Who needs a doctor when youi're killing babies?..Women's rights?
> ...



the abomination of liberty is lowering the standards of care in order to lower the costs.


----------



## Vox (Oct 12, 2013)

kaz said:


> Spoonman said:
> 
> 
> > ok, if abortion is really a solution to a problem, how about this.  We abort all anchor babies.  that would solve a problem
> ...



except it is NOT a woman's body. It is murder of a human being.

Do you want to get government off prosecution of murdering human beings - let's say in 12 trimester? i

should we return to the ancient times? women and children at ANY stage of development were not considered human as well and no government involvement in killing a child or a woman? precious liberty - do you want to return to such a one?
NO?
WHY?
What is the difference?


----------



## koshergrl (Oct 12, 2013)

kaz said:


> koshergrl said:
> 
> 
> > I think the people who think other people should die should take the first hit.
> ...


Don't tell me how to argue, you sanctimonious twit. A woman's *right to her body* doesn't extend to destroying the life that is dependent upon her body for protection and sustenance.

This whole thing is simply about protecting the *choice* of people to have sex when they shouldn't be having sex. Sex is not a necessity of life. You don't HAVE to have sex. You CHOOSE to have sex. And at the time you CHOOSE to have sex, you also CHOOSE whether or not you are prepared to deal with the chance that you may create another life. THAT is the choice you need to be looking at. Not the CHOICE to kill another life, when you made a stupid choice earlier.


----------



## JoeB131 (Oct 12, 2013)

koshergrl said:


> Don't tell me how to argue, you sanctimonious twit. A woman's *right to her body* doesn't extend to destroying the life that is dependent upon her body for protection and sustenance.
> 
> This whole thing is simply about protecting the *choice* of people to have sex when they shouldn't be having sex. Sex is not a necessity of life. You don't HAVE to have sex. You CHOOSE to have sex. And at the time you CHOOSE to have sex, you also CHOOSE whether or not you are prepared to deal with the chance that you may create another life. THAT is the choice you need to be looking at. Not the CHOICE to kill another life, when you made a stupid choice earlier.



Who are you to decide when people shouldn't be having sex?  Or telling them what to do with their bodies?

Hey, here's a whacky idea. If you don't like abortions, don't have one.


----------



## Sallow (Oct 12, 2013)

Jroc said:


> BreezeWood said:
> 
> 
> > > and some physicians, arguing that it amounted to legalizing back-alley abortions for profit.
> ...



What dead babies?


----------



## Sallow (Oct 12, 2013)

koshergrl said:


> kaz said:
> 
> 
> > koshergrl said:
> ...



Sure it does.

If it didn't, then she'd have no right to kill disease..which is a form of life that is dependent upon her body for protection and sustenance.


----------



## koshergrl (Oct 12, 2013)

Brilliant. Run with that. Babies are a disease.


----------



## Sallow (Oct 12, 2013)

JoeB131 said:


> koshergrl said:
> 
> 
> > Don't tell me how to argue, you sanctimonious twit. A woman's *right to her body* doesn't extend to destroying the life that is dependent upon her body for protection and sustenance.
> ...



There's that.

And the fact that humans are as driven to have sex..as they are to eat.

It's a hard wired thing..and if it wasn't?

There'd be no more humans.


----------



## koshergrl (Oct 12, 2013)

Oh, okay. So you maintain we have no control over our sexual impulses.

Got it. That's the same argument that depraved individuals who want to legalize things like rape and sex with animals say.


----------



## Jroc (Oct 12, 2013)

Sallow said:


> Jroc said:
> 
> 
> > BreezeWood said:
> ...



This baby can be killed in California

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iZsAwnd4Msg]24 week premature baby - Toby's journey - YouTube[/ame]


----------



## Sallow (Oct 12, 2013)

koshergrl said:


> Oh, okay. So you maintain we have no control over our sexual impulses.
> 
> Got it. That's the same argument that depraved individuals who want to legalize things like rape and sex with animals say.



There's rules about eating too.

Look it up.


----------



## kaz (Oct 12, 2013)

Vox said:


> kaz said:
> 
> 
> > Jroc said:
> ...



All hail the great government God who is protecting us from making our own decisions about our own wallets and our own bodies.


----------



## kaz (Oct 12, 2013)

Vox said:


> kaz said:
> 
> 
> > Spoonman said:
> ...



Strawmen aside, the baby does not have a right to the woman's body.  Which is why your strawmen were strawmen.  I am not talking about what is the right and wrong decision, I'm talking about who makes the decision.  That you want politicians and bureaucrats to tell the woman under what circumstances she makes choices over her body and when they do is wrong.

You have plenty of options though under liberty.  Information campaigns, providing her with choices by spending your own time and money helping her or contributing to a charity to do it.  But to run to government and tell them you want them to use the power of guns to do it for you is pathetic.  Grow a pair and do something about it, don't ask other people to use force to do it for you.


----------



## kaz (Oct 12, 2013)

koshergrl said:


> kaz said:
> 
> 
> > koshergrl said:
> ...



"I" am sanctimonious.  LOL.


----------



## kaz (Oct 12, 2013)

Sallow said:


> koshergrl said:
> 
> 
> > kaz said:
> ...



What a stupid argument.  I hate when liberals argue on my side, it's enough work already...


----------



## koshergrl (Oct 12, 2013)

kaz said:


> koshergrl said:
> 
> 
> > kaz said:
> ...



Yes, "you" are. When "you" presume to advise me on whether or not I can do better, and how I should better couch my argument.

Maybe condescending is a better term. Either way, it's annoying and does not bode well for you in your interactions with me.


----------



## kaz (Oct 12, 2013)

koshergrl said:


> kaz said:
> 
> 
> > koshergrl said:
> ...



I see, but you saying I "think other people should die" and have an "intent" to commit infanticide is reasonable debate.  What I said was that the baby does not have a right to another person's body.

It makes no difference to your interactions with me because you're not capable of getting to me.  But your double standard is worthy of the liberals at their "best."

Maybe if you tried effective solutions on your own rather than running to government with guns to force their will on women who don't recognize government's rights over their bodies, you would find your campaign against abortion to be a lot more effective.  You do that, and I'll donate.  I'd love you to persuade and offer women to not get abortions effectively.  Force won't work.


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## koshergrl (Oct 12, 2013)

I didn't say you thought other people should die.

So much for that. I didn't read any further.


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## C_Clayton_Jones (Oct 12, 2013)

koshergrl said:


> kaz said:
> 
> 
> > koshergrl said:
> ...



Ignorant nonsense. 

All persons are guaranteed the right to privacy by the 4th, 5th, and 14th Amendments in the context of substantive due process. See:_ Griswold v. Connecticut _(1965), _Eisenstadt v. Baird _(1972), _Roe v. Wade_ (1973), _Planned Parenthood v. Casey _(1992). Consequently, the state is prohibited from placing an undue burden on a womans right to access an abortion prior to viability of the fetus, where such measures would result in a violation of that right to privacy. 

This case law neither condones abortion nor compels others to have an abortion, it simply prohibits the state from crossing into the personal, private realm of individual liberty safeguarded by the Constitution, and in no way preempts citizens from pursuing other means to bring about the end of the practice. 

Moreover, not all pregnancies result from consensual sex and pregnancy can also result from intercourse where the woman has made a good faith effort to prevent pregnancy where contraception methods have unexpectedly failed. 

Last, this whole thing is simply about the right of individuals to be free from unwanted and unwarranted government interference concerning matters both personal and private. That you disapprove of how adults might conduct their private lives is thankfully irrelevant, and we have the Constitution and its case law to protect citizens from the ignorance and hate you manifest.


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## kaz (Oct 12, 2013)

C_Clayton_Jones said:


> All persons are guaranteed the right to privacy by the 4th, 5th, and 14th Amendments



Actually the working one here is the 10th amendment.  I know liberals don't like to use that one since you consider it road kill.   That is why Roe v. Wade is a Constitutional abomination.  Even though I'm clearly pro-choice, unlike Republicans and Democrats, I have intellectual integrity.  And the Feds overstepping their authority is a far greater threat to our liberty than any freedom they support.  That which they can give, they can take away.  The Feds have no say on abortion either to enable or ban it.


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## NYcarbineer (Oct 12, 2013)

kaz said:


> C_Clayton_Jones said:
> 
> 
> > All persons are guaranteed the right to privacy by the 4th, 5th, and 14th Amendments
> ...



States cannot pass laws that violate the Constitution.  The Constitution protects the right of privacy.

States can thus not pass laws that violate the right of privacy.


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## koshergrl (Oct 12, 2013)

C_Clayton_Jones said:


> koshergrl said:
> 
> 
> > kaz said:
> ...



The right to privacy and the right to kill your child are not the same.

So let's review..who's ignorant again? Can you provide me the definition of "privacy" that includes "abortion"or "murder" as acts that are protected by "privacy" laws?

Is burglary also protected by "privacy" laws? I mean, if nobody sees it, it's nobody's business, right? It's not like the homeowner FEELS anything when the back door gets kicked in and the tv yanked from the wall..


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## koshergrl (Oct 12, 2013)

And yes, it's true...contraception isn't 100 percent effective.

So people choosing to have sex should consider the fact that not all contraceptive is 100 percent effective, before they actually have sex. There is no method of birth control, aside from abstinence, that is 100 percent effective.

That's a part of the "choice" you make.


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## Crackerjaxon (Oct 12, 2013)

Good ol' Moonbeam is creating jobs, folks.


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## Crackerjaxon (Oct 12, 2013)

Sallow said:


> JoeB131 said:
> 
> 
> > koshergrl said:
> ...




Without sex, democrats become emaciated, pine away and die.


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## Stephanie (Oct 12, 2013)

Crackerjaxon said:


> Good ol' Moonbeam is creating jobs, folks.



California has opened the floodgates for Illegal immigrants, so they can't have them adding more people to the state...so for them it's OPEN UP who can preform ABORTION and KILL THE helpless and innocent for Population control

He's not doing this because he cares, he has an ulterior motive and if anyone knows about the old hippy commie moonbeam,  they would know this


----------



## Crackerjaxon (Oct 12, 2013)

Sallow said:


> Jroc said:
> 
> 
> > BreezeWood said:
> ...



Interesting the way liberals dehumanize their victims before killing them.

How do you think Nazis lived with themselves as they slaughtered Jews?


----------



## Crackerjaxon (Oct 12, 2013)

JoeB131 said:


> koshergrl said:
> 
> 
> > Joe is scum. I told you, men who support abortion are the lowest of the low. They hate women, and generally speaking they are racist as well...because in this country, the percentage of minority women getting abortions is vastly disproportionate to the entire population. It's almost always a race thing with abortion...race, and/or power over women, and abject sexual depravity.
> ...



Genocide is just a form of population control, right?


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## koshergrl (Oct 12, 2013)

Yes, it is.


----------



## Vox (Oct 12, 2013)

koshergrl said:


> Brilliant. Run with that. Babies are a disease.



One can't fell any lower than that. Leftards are the scum of the earth


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## koshergrl (Oct 12, 2013)

I know. They know it too. You can't be unaware that you're scum, when every waking thought is all about convincing the world that the most heinous practices are actually "good" for them.


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## mamooth (Oct 12, 2013)

Look at all the the pro-life pervo control freaks. It really bugs that authoritarian crowd when people won't play along with their power fantasies. They're actually happy with abortion, provided it's degrading and dangerous. They don't give a shit about life, they just want to punish the dirty sluts who dared have sex.

Worse for them, most the NP's doing abortions will be women, and how can the pro-lifers call for the assassination of women? I mean, they'd love to, but they know how that would turn the entire nation against them, instead of just the current majority of the nation. So this will destroy their terrorist plans. They won't be able to get any more support for assassinations, and there will eventually be too many providers to assassinate. So another element of their master plan, gone.

And finally, this just ruins their plans for more Gosnells. He was the pro-life poster boy, their masterwork, their blueprint for the future. All gone now, after this anti-Gosnell bill spreads from California. No wonder they're having meltdowns.


----------



## kaz (Oct 12, 2013)

NYcarbineer said:


> kaz said:
> 
> 
> > C_Clayton_Jones said:
> ...





Read my post and provide a lucid response if you'd like a response from me.


----------



## clevergirl (Oct 12, 2013)

Narcissism rules American- nay Western culture.

Fucking self absorbed narcissists claim killing an unborn baby is a right. Let them have their right to kill- perhaps they will succeed in killing off their perverted wicked kind of thinking while doing so.

Let's keep birth for the  responsible; sane and less selfish among us.


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## NYcarbineer (Oct 12, 2013)

kaz said:


> NYcarbineer said:
> 
> 
> > kaz said:
> ...



I proved you were wrong to say that the federal government has no say on abortion, unless you can prove that the federal government has no say on issues of privacy rights.

Oh, and btw, you are not pro-choice on abortion if you believe that any government, state government included, 

has the right to ban it.


----------



## kaz (Oct 12, 2013)

NYcarbineer said:


> kaz said:
> 
> 
> > NYcarbineer said:
> ...


You proved nothing, you didn't even understand what I said.



NYcarbineer said:


> Oh, and btw, you are not pro-choice on abortion if you believe that any government, state government included,
> 
> has the right to ban it.





You're declaring me not pro-choice?  Crap, I'm going to cry now.



Sorry, I was trying to cry, I really was.  When you say "right" I'm not sure what basis you are using.  The Constitution does not address abortion, I did a word search.  And since it's an enumerated document, sorry Charlie, but only good tasting tuna get to be Star Kist.

I also oppose government prohibiting abortion at the State, local and International collective levels as well.  But that doesn't put in the Constitution what's not there.

I'd be good with your getting it in the Constitution, that would require 2/3, 2/3 and 3/4.  Good luck with that.


----------



## JoeB131 (Oct 12, 2013)

koshergrl said:


> And yes, it's true...contraception isn't 100 percent effective.
> 
> So people choosing to have sex should consider the fact that not all contraceptive is 100 percent effective, before they actually have sex. There is no method of birth control, aside from abstinence, that is 100 percent effective.
> 
> That's a part of the "choice" you make.



abortion is also 100% effective in getting rid of unwanted problems.  

So there's that.


----------



## TemplarKormac (Oct 12, 2013)

JoeB131 said:


> koshergrl said:
> 
> 
> > And yes, it's true...contraception isn't 100 percent effective.
> ...



So a child is a problem? Right then, keep the legs closed during a one night stand and that would help in getting rid of unwanted problems too. Oh well, guess self restraint isn't taught anymore these days.


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## BDBoop (Oct 12, 2013)

JoeB131 said:


> koshergrl said:
> 
> 
> > And yes, it's true...contraception isn't 100 percent effective.
> ...



It sounds like nothing so much in here as "AND IF I'M NOT GETTING ANY, THEN BY GOD NOBODY IS GETTING ANY!"


----------



## WelfareQueen (Oct 12, 2013)

JoeB131 said:


> koshergrl said:
> 
> 
> > And yes, it's true...contraception isn't 100 percent effective.
> ...



Sadly, your parents didn't go in that direction.


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## TemplarKormac (Oct 12, 2013)

BDBoop said:


> JoeB131 said:
> 
> 
> > koshergrl said:
> ...


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## BDBoop (Oct 12, 2013)

WelfareQueen said:


> JoeB131 said:
> 
> 
> > koshergrl said:
> ...



Hey, I didn't know you were pro-choice! Sweet! 

Welcome aboard.


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## koshergrl (Oct 12, 2013)

TemplarKormac said:


> BDBoop said:
> 
> 
> > JoeB131 said:
> ...



Yes, after about the 50th time she found a way to interject her musings about MY sex life (into a wide variety of threads about a wide variety of topis) it started getting just a little creepy.

Boop spends, and has since her early days, an inordinate amount of time thinking about whether or not I'm getting any, and with whom.


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## JoeB131 (Oct 12, 2013)

TemplarKormac said:


> JoeB131 said:
> 
> 
> > koshergrl said:
> ...



Nope, a fetus isn't a "child".  

Can we kind of get that straight?  

Never heard a woman who was getting an abortion call it a "child" or a "baby". It was always, "that problem I need to take care of!" 

And all the preaching and pictures of medical waste and screaming at people isn't going to change the reality that given a choice between ending a pregnancy and screwing up their entire lives, most women WILL Have an abortion.


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## JoeB131 (Oct 12, 2013)

WelfareQueen said:


> JoeB131 said:
> 
> 
> > koshergrl said:
> ...



Gee, that joke was old when Dan Akryod said it to Jane Curtain.  And he knew he was being obnoxious...


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## koshergrl (Oct 12, 2013)

JoeB131 said:


> TemplarKormac said:
> 
> 
> > JoeB131 said:
> ...



I am so tired of baby killers jumping on the "it's not a baby, it's a FETUS" thing. As if that makes a difference.

*Yawn*.

Almost as boring as joe's eternal assertion that the many women he's talked to about their abortions did so with a smile and a skip and no worries about anything. 

Cuz we all know...risky sex AND abortions are good for women!!


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## koshergrl (Oct 12, 2013)

Isn't that the sex traffickers' creed or something?


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## Katzndogz (Oct 12, 2013)

This might have the unintended consequence of forcing women back into back alleys.    The one with the coat hanger will know more and have more experience whose last job was taco filler at Taco Bell.

This really doen't have a downside.


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## JoeB131 (Oct 12, 2013)

Here's where I changed my mind about abortion. 

When I was just out of college and in active duty military service, one of my fellow NCOs had this girlfriend.   Asian, Catholic, seemingly nice but really manipulative. College educated and smart enough to know better.   And when he didn't make good on his promises to marry her, she stopped taking birth contol.  She got knocked up, pulled the old, "Marry me or else" bit, and then did the Or Else.  Because she didn't want her parents knowing she wasn't a virgin at 22. 

They broke up, got back together, and right before I realized I needed a better class of friend, pretty much did the same shit again.  

Now, besides instituting rule #7 (never get involved in other people's soap operas) the one thing I took away from that is you are never going to bully people into not having abortions.  It just isn't going to happen.  As long as people make bad choices, they are going to want an eraser.


----------



## JoeB131 (Oct 12, 2013)

koshergrl said:


> [
> 
> 
> I am so tired of baby killers jumping on the "it's not a baby, it's a FETUS" thing. As if that makes a difference.
> ...



Okay, out here in the real world, women are having sex.  Sometimes with committed partners, sometimes not...  

Reality check.  Sometimes now isn't the right time.  Heck, 40% of abortions are sought by MARRIED women.


----------



## Crackerjaxon (Oct 12, 2013)

JoeB131 said:


> TemplarKormac said:
> 
> 
> > JoeB131 said:
> ...



When is a baby not a baby?

When it's inconvenient for liberals.


----------



## koshergrl (Oct 12, 2013)

Nobody cares about the irrelevant "personal" stories you have, joe. You're a scumbag, whose premier function on this site is to promote abortion.

Yuck. You're so disgusting people have a hard time wrapping their heads around it. True story. You are not admired, you are shunned and avoided. You get your kicks from the support you receive from the most pathetic of our female posters...just as most abortionists make a living off the same pathetic crowd. Women who have been abused, who are desperate, who are vulnerable and confused. 

The rest of us, we see you for what you are...and we're perfectly certain that you are just as repugnant in real life as you are on here. Probably more so. It's a little harder to hide who you are in the real world, and you are a disgusting misogynist, a fan of porn, who appears to fantasize 24/7 about abortion.

Beyond creepy. Certainly criminal.


----------



## Vox (Oct 12, 2013)

kaz said:


> Vox said:
> 
> 
> > kaz said:
> ...



do you equate a human being with a wallet? and a human body INSIDE mother's body IS NOT HER BODY.


----------



## WelfareQueen (Oct 12, 2013)

BDBoop said:


> WelfareQueen said:
> 
> 
> > JoeB131 said:
> ...




You haven't been reading very closely.


----------



## Vox (Oct 12, 2013)

JoeB131 said:


> TemplarKormac said:
> 
> 
> > JoeB131 said:
> ...



Yes, HE IS.

A fetus IS a child.
Even if you close your eyes and ears - it is still going to bug you - a fetus IS a child. A child which has not been born yet. But it is still a child, a human being, a man or a woman.
And you are advertizing the murder of those children.

and it is never a "problem". That "problem" haunts those who performed abortions for the rest of their lives. Always. Even if those women deny it.
Psychiatrists KNOW


----------



## BDBoop (Oct 12, 2013)

WelfareQueen said:


> BDBoop said:
> 
> 
> > WelfareQueen said:
> ...



Oh, sure I have! You just advocated choice. And I figure if you can do that retroactively, then you can do it now, too.

I mean, you seem like SUCH a nice guy. Surely you didn't take the low road just so you could be a dick to Joe.


----------



## koshergrl (Oct 12, 2013)

Ah, the #1 Pro-Joe cheerleader is here.


----------



## Stephanie (Oct 12, 2013)

mamooth said:


> Look at all the the pro-life pervo control freaks. It really bugs that authoritarian crowd when people won't play along with their power fantasies. They're actually happy with abortion, provided it's degrading and dangerous. They don't give a shit about life, they just want to punish the dirty sluts who dared have sex.
> 
> Worse for them, most the NP's doing abortions will be women, and how can the pro-lifers call for the assassination of women? I mean, they'd love to, but they know how that would turn the entire nation against them, instead of just the current majority of the nation. So this will destroy their terrorist plans. They won't be able to get any more support for assassinations, and there will eventually be too many providers to assassinate. So another element of their master plan, gone.
> 
> And finally, this just ruins their plans for more Gosnells. He was the pro-life poster boy, their masterwork, their blueprint for the future. All gone now, after this anti-Gosnell bill spreads from California. No wonder they're having meltdowns.



.people can't talk about abortion or they get this condescending bs from you PRO CHOICE...You people are free free free to go abort your all offspring, nobody gives a crap


----------



## Vox (Oct 12, 2013)

JoeB131 said:


> Here's where I changed my mind about abortion.
> 
> When I was just out of college and in active duty military service, one of my fellow NCOs had this girlfriend.   Asian, Catholic, seemingly nice but really manipulative. College educated and smart enough to know better.   And when he didn't make good on his promises to marry her, she stopped taking birth contol.  She got knocked up, pulled the old, "Marry me or else" bit, and then did the Or Else.  Because she didn't want her parents knowing she wasn't a virgin at 22.
> 
> ...



oh, just stop repeating tht crap over and over again. a scumbag ( your friend) and even a bigger scumbag ( his girlfriend) have nothing to do with your stance on convenience about killing children in utero.


----------



## JoeB131 (Oct 12, 2013)

koshergrl said:


> Nobody cares about the irrelevant "personal" stories you have, joe. You're a scumbag, whose premier function on this site is to promote abortion.
> 
> Yuck. You're so disgusting people have a hard time wrapping their heads around it. True story. You are not admired, you are shunned and avoided. You get your kicks from the support you receive from the most pathetic of our female posters...just as most abortionists make a living off the same pathetic crowd. Women who have been abused, who are desperate, who are vulnerable and confused.
> 
> ...



Hey, don't put it off on me that a man talked you into something once... 

True story. Womenmake their own decisions, and they live with them.  

Which I'm fine with, as long as it shows religious idiots how completely irrelevent they and their magic friend in the sky really are.


----------



## JoeB131 (Oct 12, 2013)

Vox said:


> [
> 
> Yes, HE IS.
> 
> ...



Nope. Sorry. A fetus isn't a child. Not in the eyes of the law, not in the eyes of science and not even in the Bible, where killing a fetus was serious as paying a fine.  

(Meanwhile, the Bible did advocate the death penalty for picking up sticks on the sabbath and having the gay sex.)  

You bible thumping types need to just mind your own business and leave other people to theirs.


----------



## BDBoop (Oct 12, 2013)

JoeB131 said:


> koshergrl said:
> 
> 
> > Nobody cares about the irrelevant "personal" stories you have, joe. You're a scumbag, whose premier function on this site is to promote abortion.
> ...



"Nobody cares" is a lie.


----------



## JoeB131 (Oct 12, 2013)

Vox said:


> JoeB131 said:
> 
> 
> > Here's where I changed my mind about abortion.
> ...



Well, that's partly true.  I just got those people out of my life after that... and was better off for it. 

You know what really changed my mind. 

When I realized what CHUMPS the Koch Brothers and their kind play you pro-lifers for.  

Hey, guess what, Abortion is still legal after 40 years, and the Koch Brothers put the Kay-bosh on candidates who actually believe that stuff.  Hense, why they would rather lose with McCain and Romney than take a chance that Santorum or Huckabee might win.  

If you guys were serious about reducing the number of abortions, you'd support sex education, family and medical leave, strong workers' rights, and universal health care.  

But you don't.  You just want to lord over women who are largely ignoring you anyway.


----------



## koshergrl (Oct 12, 2013)

The lie is that any of those things actually prevent abortions.

They don't. Not if you are also preaching to women that they are also obligated to engage in sex with the most unlikely of characters from the age of about 11. Not when you train children that they are *sexual* from birth, and not expected to restrain any sexual urge.

Combine THAT with the eternal lament that children are "problems" and "medical waste"...and what you have is exactly what did happen upon the advent of legalized abortion, easily obtainable birth control, and the de-criminalization of sex crimes:

Abortion rates that sky rocketed, beyond what anyone ever could have imagined, and which have only begun to drop slightly in the last 20 years or so...an increase in child abuse, and the destruction of the social structure of an entire nation.

Which is just about when more traditional values started to come back into vogue, after 30 years or so of completely unhinged, un-restricted and un-challenged  pro-sexual depravity marketing.


----------



## WelfareQueen (Oct 12, 2013)

BDBoop said:


> WelfareQueen said:
> 
> 
> > BDBoop said:
> ...



Hon, I never said I was against abortion.  That was your interpretation.  I do think abortion is barbaric, but I have never been a woman with a fetus growing in my body that I didn't want.  Hence, I'll let the women involved make that decision and then they can try to live with their conscience.  

I have worked with women as a therapist that have been through an abortion, or contemplated it.  The entire process can be devastating.  For some women it is no more important than a bowel movement.  There doesn't seem to be any middle ground.  But in this instance you've made assumptions about me that are incorrect.


----------



## C_Clayton_Jones (Oct 12, 2013)

Vox said:


> JoeB131 said:
> 
> 
> > TemplarKormac said:
> ...



In your subjective, personal opinion, not as a fact of law.  

Which is fine, youre entitled to your opinion, with the understanding it will never change, and no one will attempt to change it.


----------



## kaz (Oct 12, 2013)

Vox said:


> kaz said:
> 
> 
> > Vox said:
> ...



I don't.  Do you?  That's pretty sick.


----------



## Noomi (Oct 12, 2013)

Vox said:


> kaz said:
> 
> 
> > Vox said:
> ...



It is attached to her body, feeds off her body, and uses her body to survive. She deserves complete control of it for that reason.


----------



## koshergrl (Oct 13, 2013)

C_Clayton_Jones said:


> Vox said:
> 
> 
> > JoeB131 said:
> ...



Let's ask the Nazi doctors if they had the legal authority to do what they did...

Oh wait, you can't...they were EXECUTED for CRIMES AGAINST HUMANITY. You see, sometimes the law is wrong. If you commit human rights violations, even if it is LEGAL (and it very often is) that doesn't mean that you aren't doing anything wrong. Laws do not define humanity, and laws cannot remove humanity. When you have laws that do, then you're in a very bad place.


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## JoeB131 (Oct 13, 2013)

koshergrl said:


> The lie is that any of those things actually prevent abortions.
> 
> They don't. Not if you are also preaching to women that they are also obligated to engage in sex with the most unlikely of characters from the age of about 11. Not when you train children that they are *sexual* from birth, and not expected to restrain any sexual urge.



Actually, they do. Which is why France has half the abortions we have.  Or Germany. Or Japan.  Once you tell the religious fucks to sit down and shut up, and put your policy on changing attitudes, it usually works just fine. 




> Combine THAT with the eternal lament that children are "problems" and "medical waste"...and what you have is exactly what did happen upon the advent of legalized abortion, easily obtainable birth control, and the de-criminalization of sex crimes:
> 
> Abortion rates that sky rocketed, beyond what anyone ever could have imagined, and which have only begun to drop slightly in the last 20 years or so...an increase in child abuse, and the destruction of the social structure of an entire nation.



except they didn't skyrocket.  They were just reported.  Again, here's the thing. If Children who would have normally been born were now being aborted, the birth rate would have DROPPED in 1973.  It didn't.  It levelled off.  Which proves that women before 1972 were probably having nice safe abortions in their gynocologists office, and they wrote something else down on the chart.  



> Which is just about when more traditional values started to come back into vogue, after 30 years or so of completely unhinged, un-restricted and un-challenged  pro-sexual depravity marketing.



Uh, no, not really.  What usually happens is that people look aback at your traditional values, and wonder how people could have ever been so stupid, or how this was ever accepted.


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## Stephanie (Oct 13, 2013)

Noomi said:


> Vox said:
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> > kaz said:
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are you talking about a tick, a flea, or what?


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## ShaklesOfBigGov (Oct 13, 2013)

C_Clayton_Jones said:


> Last, this whole thing is simply about the right of individuals to be free from unwanted and unwarranted government interference concerning matters both personal and private. That you disapprove of how adults might conduct their private lives is thankfully irrelevant, and we have the Constitution and its case law to protect citizens from the ignorance and hate you manifest.



If individuals are to be free from government influence, then organizations such as Planned Parenthood can rely on private funding and keep our government completely out of any "influential" role towards a woman's decision on whether or not she should seek an abortion. If it's to accurately be solely a *woman's right* to "privacy" then government has no place to take a side through funding such a procedure. Let them remain completely neutral, to include contraception, and allow women to make a choice on the basis of their own individual situation WITHOUT the ease and convenience of Federal aid to influence them. If you're a strong proponent of Congressional funding of Planned Parenthood, then you are not being honest in your view of government interference concerning personal and privacy matters.


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## JoeB131 (Oct 13, 2013)

ShaklesOfBigGov said:


> [
> 
> If individuals are to be free from government influence, then organizations such as Planned Parenthood can rely on private funding and keep our government completely out of any "influential" role towards a woman's decision on whether or not she should seek an abortion. If it's to accurately be solely a *woman's right* to "privacy" then government has no place to take a side through funding such a procedure. Let them remain completely neutral, to include contraception, and allow women to make a choice on the basis of their own individual situation WITHOUT the ease and convenience of Federal aid to influence them. If you're a strong proponent of Congressional funding of Planned Parenthood, then you are not being honest in your view of government interference concerning personal and privacy matters.



Again, if Libertarianism was such a swell idea, how come there isn't one Libertarian Country in the world today?  

I mean, maybe Somalia- the have no government, crazy people with guns, and no taxes, but that was by accident, not by design.


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## koshergrl (Oct 13, 2013)

Why don't you start a thread about that, joe, so we can delete your irrelevant post above from this thread?

Stick to the fucking subject. As St. Patrick says in Braveheart.


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## ShaklesOfBigGov (Oct 13, 2013)

TemplarKormac said:


> JoeB131 said:
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Apparently the left is only capable of comprehending the term _choice_, once their view of "a problem" begins.


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## ShaklesOfBigGov (Oct 13, 2013)

JoeB131 said:


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So much for government interfering in the personal privacy rights of women, remove Federal funding from the equation and you have Joe here throwing a little ranting fit


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## koshergrl (Oct 13, 2013)

ShaklesOfBigGov said:


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 That's because if the whores have to pay for it themselves, there goes his profit margin....


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## C_Clayton_Jones (Oct 13, 2013)

Vox said:


> kaz said:
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Justice OConnor already addressed this in _Casey_: 



> It is an inescapable biological fact that state regulation with respect to the child a woman is carrying will have a far greater impact on the mother's liberty than on the father's. The effect of state regulation on a woman's protected liberty is doubly deserving of scrutiny in such a case, as the State has touched not only upon the private sphere of the family but upon the very bodily integrity of the pregnant woman.
> 
> Planned Parenthood of Southeastern Pa. v. Casey, 505 U.S. 833 (1992)



Consequently, the Court wisely and correctly determined that the rights of the woman are paramount prior to viability and birth, where there are greater restrictions upon the state and its desire to preempt the womans right to privacy.


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## JoeB131 (Oct 13, 2013)

koshergrl said:


> [
> 
> Let's ask the Nazi doctors if they had the legal authority to do what they did...
> 
> Oh wait, you can't...they were EXECUTED for CRIMES AGAINST HUMANITY. You see, sometimes the law is wrong. If you commit human rights violations, even if it is LEGAL (and it very often is) that doesn't mean that you aren't doing anything wrong. Laws do not define humanity, and laws cannot remove humanity. When you have laws that do, then you're in a very bad place.



Actually, the vast majority of Nazis were acquitted of war crimes, and Germany passed a law in the 1960s immunizing most of its citizens from prosectution... Mengele was hidden with help from the German authorities for decades.  

But again, why do you never advocate arresting the women who have them? I mean, if they never showed up at abortion clinics, there wouldn't be any abortions.  

Oh. Right. The Porn INdustry made them do it! Nasty old Porn industry.


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## JoeB131 (Oct 13, 2013)

ShaklesOfBigGov said:


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NOt at all.  The government merely helps women find birth control.  PP doesnt' need government money for that, Abortion is a service that pays for itself.  

And frankly, if you guys were serious about there wanting less abortions, you'd want more birth control.  If you had a lick of sense.


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## ShaklesOfBigGov (Oct 13, 2013)

JoeB131 said:


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.... or if people like you had any lick of sense, you'd make sure you'd use ANY appropriate measures to avoid finding yourself in that position in the first place. Seems to me, someone is not using some basic common sense. Instead you look to the "taxpayer" to bail you out of your personal misfortune, while still claiming they remain out of your bedroom. So why should I contribute my tax dollars to help get you out of a situation you yourself consider to be a private matter and personal decision?


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## JoeB131 (Oct 14, 2013)

ShaklesOfBigGov said:


> [
> 
> .... or if people like you had any lick of sense, you'd make sure you'd use ANY appropriate measures to avoid finding yourself in that position in the first place. Seems to me, someone is not using some basic common sense. Instead you look to the "taxpayer" to bail you out of your personal misfortune, while still claiming they remain out of your bedroom. So why should I contribute my tax dollars to help get you out of a situation you yourself consider to be a private matter and personal decision?



I think it's more of a pay me now or pay me later.  

If you are too poor to afford a child, the state's going to end up taking care of him. 

So, yeah, a $300.00 abortion is a bargain compared to the hundreds of thousands of dollars making that kid a ward of the state.


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## BorisTheAnimal (Oct 14, 2013)

JoeB131 said:


> ShaklesOfBigGov said:
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Hitler would love you.


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## BDBoop (Oct 14, 2013)

BorisTheAnimal said:


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Oh, HELL YEAH! Godwin whack bingo. I won!!


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## koshergrl (Oct 14, 2013)

That's right. Because today's progressives are in NO WAY like the progressives of yesteryear. TOTALLY different.


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## Spoonman (Oct 14, 2013)

JoeB131 said:


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another thing you liberals screwed up.  allowing the kid to even become  a ward of the state.  sure, have as many kids as you want, we'll just send you bigger welfare checks


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## ShaklesOfBigGov (Oct 14, 2013)

JoeB131 said:


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That only shows how the left really have no respect for life, other than allow these unwanted fetuses to be conveniently set aside and discarded after you've finally resolved in handling your inconvenient problem. Yet they are opposed to the death penalty of convicted felons, who have at the very least served their time defending their life in court before their accusers? This type of twisted logic, a compassion of convenience if you will, makes absolutely no sense what-so-ever.


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## Katzndogz (Oct 14, 2013)

This is the way democrats work.  Then want abortion to reduce the number of poor the government needs to support.  Then they import millions of really poor village people from the third world jungle for the government to support.

The last thing democrats want is more Americans who might, MIGHT, have a chance to grow up with some kind of enforced education.  Better to bring in those too old to educate and inculcate in American life.   It's called population replacement by design.   Kill off American children, bring in immigrants and their children.


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## JoeB131 (Oct 14, 2013)

BorisTheAnimal said:


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Why?  Hitler banned abortion.  Nazi Germany was the only country that ever executed people for performing them. 


Marie-Louise Giraud - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



> Marie-Louise Giraud, at the age of 39, was guillotined on the morning of July 30, 1943, in the courtyard of the prison de la Roquette in Paris by executioner Jules-Henri Desfourneaux for having performed 27 abortions in the region of Cherbourg. She was the only faiseuse d'anges (French slang: literally "maker of angels") to be executed for this reason. A man was also beheaded the same year for three abortions


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## JoeB131 (Oct 14, 2013)

ShaklesOfBigGov said:


> [
> 
> That only shows how the left really have no respect for life, other than allow these unwanted fetuses to be conveniently set aside and discarded after you've finally resolved in handling your inconvenient problem. Yet they are opposed to the death penalty of convicted felons, who have at the very least served their time defending their life in court before their accusers? This type of twisted logic, a compassion of convenience if you will, makes absolutely no sense what-so-ever.



I'm opposed to the Death Penalty because the government you don't trust to run health care or teach kids about sex education actually doesn't do a very good job of determinig guilt.  

In my State, we executed 13 people, and relased 20 from Death Row because they didn't do what they were accused of.


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## koshergrl (Oct 14, 2013)

No, Hitler made abortion legal in the population he wanted to eradicate...

in Poland. 

So shut up, liar. Katz nailed it.


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## koshergrl (Oct 14, 2013)

"[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]*Further,  a Nazi decree of October 19, 1941 established abortion on demand as the  official policy of Poland. Hitler, however, expressed dissatisfaction  with this policy. Abortion, he believed, should NOT be limited to  Poland. He therefore ordered that abortion be expanded to all  populations under the control of the "Ministry of the Occupied  Territories of the East."
On  July 22, 1942, the Fuhrer exhibited a highly positive attitude towards  abortion as an indispensable method of dealing with the non-German  populations in countries under Nazi control. "In view of the large  families of the native populations," he asserted, "it could only suit us  if girls and women there had as many abortions as possible." Hitler  also personally announced that he "would personally shoot" any "such  idiot" who "tried to put into practice such an order (forbidding  abortion) in the occupied Eastern territories."


[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]http://constitutionalistnc.tripod.com/hitler-leftist/id15.html
[/FONT]
*[/FONT]


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## JoeB131 (Oct 14, 2013)

Do you have something from CREDIBLE historians?


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## koshergrl (Oct 14, 2013)

Anyone is more credible than you, liar. I could quote Daffy Duck, and everyone here would give him more credence than they give you.

"As Germany conquered other European states, it took harsh measures to keep the conquered from reproducing, particularly in the Slavic east, most particularly Poland."
http://www.uffl.org/vol%209/hunt9.pdf


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## JoeB131 (Oct 14, 2013)

Okay, I think she flipped...


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## koshergrl (Oct 14, 2013)

Funny, Hitler also believed one of the most useful applications of legal abortion was in the interest of leaving women "open" and working. ("Open" is a term used by horsebreeders, btw. An "open" mare is not pregnant.)


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## JoeB131 (Oct 14, 2013)

koshergrl said:


> Funny, Hitler also believed one of the most useful applications of legal abortion was in the interest of leaving women "open" and working. ("Open" is a term used by horsebreeders, btw. An "open" mare is not pregnant.)



I think you are mistaking Hilter for your gynocologist...


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## ShaklesOfBigGov (Oct 14, 2013)

JoeB131 said:


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However, with the use of DNA evidence as well as the other advancements we now have in forensics science, that adds more certainty to proving guilt. Add to that the fact we use a judicial system, where the prosecutor and defense each utilizes the same process of questioning potential jurors to determine a jury of your peers, places the case more in the hands of the people than the government. So based on these two issues, I'm not really buying your "government" excuse. In short, through both examples I had previously stated in my last post, there seems to be found a whole array of excuses for why we can no longer accept personal responsibility for the decisions we make.


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## JoeB131 (Oct 14, 2013)

ShaklesOfBigGov said:


> JoeB131 said:
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A lot of problems with this statement. 



> with the use of DNA evidence as well as the other advancements



Except most murder convictions are made without DNA evidence.  



> Add to that the fact we use a judicial system, where the prosecutor and defense each utilizes the same process of questioning potential jurors to determine a jury of your peers, places the case more in the hands of the people than the government.



Except most Public Defenders have nowhere near the budget of the prosecutors and police to investigate crimes.  this is why a rich person has never been executed, even ones who are as guilty as a cat in a canary cage. 

Again, the example of Rolando Cruz.  Guy was put on trial THREE TIMES for a murder that someone else copped to because prosecutors in MY county couldn't admit they made a mistake. 



> In short, through both examples I had previously stated in my last post, there seems to be found a whole array of excuses for why we can no longer accept personal responsibility for the decisions we make



I think you are failing to make a distinction between "personal responsibility" and "Making the choices I want".   

I think a woman who gets pregnant but knows damned well she isn't ready to have a baby at this point in her life is taking responsibility when she chooses to end the pregnancy.  Sorry, fetuses aren't people.


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## mamooth (Oct 14, 2013)

The Nazis went both ways. Abortion forbidden for Aryan women, but often mandated for "lesser" races.

The common factor, nobody got a choice. Hence the pro-choicers would be the polar opposite of Nazis.


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## Katzndogz (Oct 14, 2013)

Fetuses aren't people in the same way muslims don't think Jews are people.  The same waty that slaves weren't people.  By decree.   Democrats aren't people either.  Maybe it's time to eliminate and legalize the termination of democrats.   It would certainly reduce the population of criminals.


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## mamooth (Oct 14, 2013)

> The Constitution does not address abortion



True, but abortion was legal (until "quickening") and common when it was written. Plenty of abortifacients for sale. Give a woman enough mercury, and she'll get sick enough to miscarry. Might die too.

Anyways, the founders didn't seem to have any concern about that status quo. So the founders would seem to be on the pro-choice side.


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## koshergrl (Oct 14, 2013)

JoeB131 said:


> koshergrl said:
> 
> 
> > Funny, Hitler also believed one of the most useful applications of legal abortion was in the interest of leaving women "open" and working. ("Open" is a term used by horsebreeders, btw. An "open" mare is not pregnant.)
> ...


Please spare the board your sick fantasies. We already know you have an unhealthy obsession with the concept of abortion...we don't need all the bizarro details.


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## mamooth (Oct 14, 2013)

Katzndogz said:


> Fetuses aren't people in the same way muslims don't think Jews are people.  The same waty that slaves weren't people.  By decree.



PETA tells me cows are people, and that I'm a murderer for eating meat.

Pro-lifers all sound exactly like PETA. I honestly have difficulty telling the difference between the two groups. Both of them use a dishonest whackaloon revisionist definition to define "person", and then froth that anyone not accepting their kook definition is a murderer.

Katz, koshr, why don't you pro-lifers just formally merge with PETA, given that you have so much in common?



> Democrats aren't people either.  Maybe it's time to eliminate and legalize the termination of democrats.   It would certainly reduce the population of criminals.



Katz certainly is a bloodthirsty little rumpswab, ain't he? Scary thing, he's fairly normal for a conservative. A good portion of them -- maybe 20% -- honestly want to see the mass murder of liberals.


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## koshergrl (Oct 14, 2013)

mamooth said:


> > The Constitution does not address abortion
> 
> 
> True, but abortion was legal (until "quickening") and common when it was written. Plenty of abortifacients for sale. Give a woman enough mercury, and she'll get sick enough to miscarry. Might die too.
> ...



Oh, okay....


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## BDBoop (Oct 14, 2013)

mamooth said:


> Katzndogz said:
> 
> 
> > Fetuses aren't people in the same way muslims don't think Jews are people.  The same waty that slaves weren't people.  By decree.
> ...



Allegedly, Katz is female. I had trouble believing it, but KG! so. Yeah.


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## koshergrl (Oct 14, 2013)

So. Cows are human in the same way fetuses are human?

At what stage of development do cows become a child? If we don't eat them, do they spontaneously become human?


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## JoeB131 (Oct 14, 2013)

koshergrl said:


> JoeB131 said:
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Actually, I could care less about Abortion one way or the other.  Has no effect on my life. 

Except the pleasure I derive from watching Bible thumping idiots getting all upset that it's legal, baby!


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## C_Clayton_Jones (Oct 14, 2013)

> The Constitution does not address abortion



Its case law does, however, as the Constitution exists only in the context of that case law. 

And the 3rd, 4th, and 5th Amendments are exceedingly clear with regard to prohibiting government from violating the rights to privacy and individual liberty, applied to the states and other jurisdictions by the 14th Amendment. 

Government has no authority and is wholly unfit to dictate to private citizens concerning personal, private matters best left to individuals themselves to decide, in accordance with each persons good conscience. 

This was once a basic conservative tenet, now lost to the insanity that is the social right and Christian fundamentalism.


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## BDBoop (Oct 14, 2013)

JoeB131 said:


> Do you have something from CREDIBLE historians?



Phfft, no!


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## Jroc (Oct 14, 2013)

C_Clayton_Jones said:


> > The Constitution does not address abortion
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Funny that the only individule liberty the left seems to like is the unlimited killing of babies...Kind of like a death cult


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## Noomi (Oct 14, 2013)

koshergrl said:


> No, Hitler made abortion legal in the population he wanted to eradicate...
> 
> in Poland.
> 
> So shut up, liar. Katz nailed it.



Are you sure that was abortion? Because sending someone to the gas chamber is not abortion, no matter how much you want it to be.


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## koshergrl (Oct 14, 2013)

Read the material, noomi. Abortion. Hitler was obsessed with it and was adamantly pro-abortion...particularly in the populations he wanted to eliminate or use as a work force.


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## BDBoop (Oct 14, 2013)

Noomi said:


> koshergrl said:
> 
> 
> > No, Hitler made abortion legal in the population he wanted to eradicate...
> ...


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## ShaklesOfBigGov (Oct 15, 2013)

Jroc said:


> C_Clayton_Jones said:
> 
> 
> > > The Constitution does not address abortion
> ...




Have you noticed as he boasted "individual liberty" that he completely bypassed the right to life, as in the familiar phrase "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness"? What I always found interesting was the order of importance the Founders had placed for each, as life and individual liberty was deemed as highly valued followed by the "individual" pursuit of happiness.


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