# Frack off



## Tommy Tainant (Mar 4, 2016)

Fracking is on the run. We need to stay strong though.

Underground Coal Gasification Collapse Shows Fragility Of Fracking


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## Toddsterpatriot (Mar 4, 2016)

Yes, fracking should remain strong. Cheap fossil fuels are awesome!


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## Fueri (Mar 4, 2016)

IMO this is one of those things that shot out of the gate so fast that the regulations haven't been able to keep pace.

I'm all for cheap fossil fuels.  who doesn't like a bit of relief at the pump after $4-5/gallon gas.  Dropping 60 bucks to fill sucks.  And I can't say that seeing the Saudis and their ilk take a solid kick to the nuts isn't more than a little satisfying.

What I'm not in favor of is cheap gas at any cost, regardless of risk or consequence.

When you can light the tap water in a community on fire something is wrong.

As with a lot of things (Big Pharma I'm looking at you) I think these people know how to get a result, in this case pulling fossil fuels out, but don't have the first damn clue about what the consequences really are and, truth be told, couldn't give  a shit.

My suspicion is that the the oil and gas folks are pumping more money than than gas into DC to keep the regulatory dogs at bay for as long as possible.


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## irosie91 (Mar 4, 2016)

Fueri said:


> IMO this is one of those things that shot out of the gate so fast that the regulations haven't been able to keep pace.
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> I'm all for cheap fossil fuels.  who doesn't like a bit of relief at the pump after $4-5/gallon gas.  Dropping 60 bucks to fill sucks.  And I can't say that seeing the Saudis and their ilk take a solid kick to the nuts isn't more than a little satisfying.
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                  ******* ENERGY IS DA BOMB !!!!  *****


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## Toddsterpatriot (Mar 4, 2016)

Fueri said:


> IMO this is one of those things that shot out of the gate so fast that the regulations haven't been able to keep pace.
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> I'm all for cheap fossil fuels.  who doesn't like a bit of relief at the pump after $4-5/gallon gas.  Dropping 60 bucks to fill sucks.  And I can't say that seeing the Saudis and their ilk take a solid kick to the nuts isn't more than a little satisfying.
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*When you can light the tap water in a community on fire something is wrong.
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Yeah, it means you have methane in your water table. Happened well before fracking got big.


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## RodISHI (Mar 4, 2016)

Tommy Tainant said:


> Fracking is on the run. We need to stay strong though.
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> Underground Coal Gasification Collapse Shows Fragility Of Fracking


Thanks for the link. A good video on this.


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## Fueri (Mar 4, 2016)

Toddsterpatriot said:


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Or you've released methane into your water table.

I'm not against fracking per se.  I do think we're seeing a bit of the wild-wild west element right now in this field, which is on the new side.

The techniques and regulations will catch up, but we're gonna see some broken eggs, I think, before that happens.  When there's this much money to be made a lot goes by the wayside as companies rush in to collect that bank, and this is no different, IMO.  Pump first, ask questions later if you will.....


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## irosie91 (Mar 4, 2016)

I have a simple minded question------how about LOTS MORE TESTING of
public water supplies   ???  -------I am horrified re:    the possibilities of 
EPIDEMIC and also  TERRORIST ADULTERATION


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## Toddsterpatriot (Mar 4, 2016)

RodISHI said:


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We could use nuclear energy, but the enviroweenies don't like that either.


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## RodISHI (Mar 4, 2016)

irosie91 said:


> I have a simple minded question------how about LOTS MORE TESTING of
> public water supplies   ???  -------I am horrified re:    the possibilities of
> EPIDEMIC and also  TERRORIST ADULTERATION


Anyone going with fracking is okay is either bought and paid for, has money in it or totally asinine. If the Republicans stay with this shit they will continue to let the Democrats supporting tear down of the society have free reign.


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## boedicca (Mar 4, 2016)

Fueri said:


> IMO this is one of those things that shot out of the gate so fast that the regulations haven't been able to keep pace.
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Your Burning Strawmen are a bigger threat to the U.S. than is Fracking.

Just sayin'.


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## RodISHI (Mar 4, 2016)

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Call me an enviroweenie. Start upgrading. Instead of putting raw shit loose everywhere start building smaller facilities for methane. Invest in things that do not or can not destroy every bit of enviroment around it or like Fukushima radiating half of the f'ing world.


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## Toddsterpatriot (Mar 4, 2016)

RodISHI said:


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Or they realize that cheap, reliable energy is a good thing.
Solar and wind wouldn't do very much for me in a Chicago winter.


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## irosie91 (Mar 4, 2016)

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another simple minded question----why not?


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## Toddsterpatriot (Mar 4, 2016)

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*Call me an enviroweenie. Start upgrading.
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I agree, upgrade and expand our nuclear plants.


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## Toddsterpatriot (Mar 4, 2016)

irosie91 said:


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Why don't wind and solar help keep me warm during a dark, cold winter?


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## RodISHI (Mar 4, 2016)

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I disagree nuclear waste is deadly and I could imagine you don't want it in your backyard either.


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## RodISHI (Mar 4, 2016)

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Chicago needs to build an incinerator generator and start burning all the trash that is generated there. Sorry but the big plans are killing off too many people. Think more locally and divest what you have available. Use coal and scrubbers if you have to but leave the radiation and radium water polluting frackers off.


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## Toddsterpatriot (Mar 4, 2016)

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*I disagree nuclear waste is deadly
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Obama said global warming is the biggest threat. No CO2 from nukes.

*I could imagine you don't want it in your backyard either.*

Depends, how much will you pay for me to store it?


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## RodISHI (Mar 4, 2016)

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No you can pollute your neighbors yard either by taking money to store shit in your yard that will pollute their yard.


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## irosie91 (Mar 4, 2016)

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fracking creates radiation pollution?      oh----I did not know.      ------"radium"?----
where does the radium come in,  in the FRACKING process?


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## Toddsterpatriot (Mar 4, 2016)

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*Chicago needs to build an incinerator generator and start burning all the trash that is generated their.
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CO2 and heavy metal waste.

*Sorry but the big plans are killing off too many people.*

How many people have been killed by US civilian nuclear reactors?


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## Toddsterpatriot (Mar 4, 2016)

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Why do you feel modern waste containers would pollute my neighbor's yard?


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## RodISHI (Mar 4, 2016)

irosie91 said:


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Radium is in the ground. When they frack it releases it into the water table along with the polluting chemicals that they use and any other pollutant in the ground. Like mining. If I mined silver lead and mercury is released along with other pollutants that are disastrous to living organism, human or animals either one.


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## RodISHI (Mar 4, 2016)

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No one has come up with a full safe long term storage for waste yet. Why create waste will last for hundreds and thousands of years? Hell they are still cleaning up old mine sites from a hundred years ago. Idaho had to spend a small fortune to get their shit cleaned up after they discovered it was leaking into the aquifer. Nuclear is a short term fix with extensive long term problems.


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## Fueri (Mar 4, 2016)

boedicca said:


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Oh, and what strawman argument are you referring to?


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## irosie91 (Mar 4, 2016)

RodISHI said:


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thanks------more reason for more careful---WATER TESTING----lots of things
pollute the water-----some time ago it turned out that we are all ingesting
SSRI   anti - depressants      (not really a bad thing)


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## Toddsterpatriot (Mar 4, 2016)

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The waste mostly breaks down to uranium, americium and plutonium. Easily handled. Useful fuel.
You don't need to bury it forever. That would be stupid and wasteful.


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## Toddsterpatriot (Mar 4, 2016)

RodISHI said:


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Very cool video that shows long term decay products.
No need to bury stuff for 1,000,000 years.


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## RodISHI (Mar 4, 2016)

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I'd passed on the anti-depressant meds but hey everyone gets a choice I guess.


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## RodISHI (Mar 4, 2016)

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Listening to it. If it is worth while to even consider I may put it with some experts I know and get back with you with their opinion.


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## RodISHI (Mar 4, 2016)

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Okay Toddsterpatriot I watch all I can handle. Find a good salesman and make a presentation and surely we can get everyone on board. I think not but hey you may get it accomplished for awhile. I prefer to go with the pig shit theory. Get a pig farm near you and generate some electricity with pig shit. Heck even hydrogen cars be would more appealing than your current nuclear options. Just my personal opinion though.


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## Toddsterpatriot (Mar 4, 2016)

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*I prefer to go with the pig shit theory. Get a pig farm near you and generate some electricity with pig shit.
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How many pigs needed to power and heat Chicago during the winter?

*Heck even hydrogen cars be would more appealing than your current nuclear options.
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Hydrogen generated in what way?


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## RodISHI (Mar 4, 2016)

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Look into hydrogen.

Are you asking a serious question on how to heat Chicago?


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## Toddsterpatriot (Mar 4, 2016)

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I live in Chicago, so yes, I'm serious.

You look into hydrogen. When you figure out how to generate it for cars, let me know your secret.


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## Searcher44 (Mar 4, 2016)

Tommy Tainant said:


> Fracking is on the run. We need to stay strong though.
> 
> Underground Coal Gasification Collapse Shows Fragility Of Fracking




I'm not quite clear on your position, are you defending UCG (Underground Coal Gasification)? Sounds a little sketchy to me.

*UCG*
_"The process involves drilling two parallel wells down to (and usually horizontally through) a coal seam and joining them at the end with some method (e.g. directional drilling or hydraulic fracturing). Air (or possibly pure oxygen) is injected down one well, the coal is set on fire and partially burns, producing a stream of gases. Water flowing into the cavity from the surrounding aquifers is also consumed in the reactions, but this may be supplemented by injection of water or steam. At the surface the gases produced are separated into carbon dioxide, water and the syngas (consisting of carbon monoxide, hydrogen and methane). In addition large quantities of waste (carbon dioxide and contaminated water) are produced."_


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## RodISHI (Mar 4, 2016)

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Its already been figured out along with other energy devices. Until you get giants under control anyone that comes forth with something better or more efficient is not exactly safe. Heck the big dogs can't stand a little competition from a mom and pop sand and gravel business like I had much less take away their bulti-billion dollar scams on everyone. By the way if I had the information I would spread it far and wide freely throughout the country to insure everyone had the plans. Someone did on Pantone's behalf after he finally succumbed and was gone. One thing that they did not get was the spirit that he carried with him to tell the giants make it useful to help everyone or fu-go away.  
One for a few to look at if they are interested.


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## Toddsterpatriot (Mar 4, 2016)

RodISHI said:


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*Its already been figured out along with other energy devices.
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Then it should be easy for you to explain.


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## RodISHI (Mar 4, 2016)

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You can do the research I am confident you are capable.


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## Toddsterpatriot (Mar 4, 2016)

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Nice video. Nuclear transmutation. Perpetual motion is the fuel of the future.


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## Toddsterpatriot (Mar 4, 2016)

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You made the recommendation, why so shy?
If hydrogen is the best fuel to power our cars, that's fine.
Tell me where you want to get the hydrogen.


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## RodISHI (Mar 4, 2016)

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I thought you were claiming your house needed heat. You want me to do all your research and give you cars and ways to deal with your heating issues too?


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## Toddsterpatriot (Mar 4, 2016)

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*I thought you were claiming your house needed heat.
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Heat and power. Your pig shit idea kinda stinks. Nuclear would work. In Illinois nuclear works just fine.
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You want me to do all your research
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You say hydrogen is good fuel for cars. Fine. It doesn't grow on trees, can't be mined or drilled.
So what's your source? Or just admit it sounded cool, but have no idea where to get it.


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## RodISHI (Mar 4, 2016)

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Get creative and use your own waste if you don't like pig shit. 
Pee-powered fuel cell turns urine to energy


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## Toddsterpatriot (Mar 4, 2016)

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I'm sure that's enough to heat and power a home in Chicago during winter. LOL!

You've given up on hydrogen power already?


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## RodISHI (Mar 4, 2016)

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How much energy do you think you need per month for your house?


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## Toddsterpatriot (Mar 4, 2016)

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More than I can get from pee and pig shit. Or imaginary hydrogen.


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## RodISHI (Mar 4, 2016)

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Maybe you should learn to live more conservatively.
Nuclear energy does not compare in short term cost nor long term cost. People will have to learn to live within their means and deal with it. If every person was responsible for their own waste they could use that as an added bonus for as long as their is electric grids. Whole cities can be operated on waste generation plants supplemented with other cleaner energy sources.

Idaho Renewable Energy Projects Gain Momentum  - Snake River Alliance

SAS Output


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## Toddsterpatriot (Mar 4, 2016)

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*Maybe you should learn to live more conservatively.
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Good idea. I'll start by not wasting money or energy on hydrogen fuel.

Why do you like hydrogen? Expensive, explosive, hard to store, doesn't reduce CO2. Kinda pointless.

*Nuclear energy does not compare in short term cost nor long term cost.*

Does not compare to what?


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## RodISHI (Mar 4, 2016)

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I gave you the cost sheets. You evidently did not look at the links. 

Use what you have available. Personally we are conservative in what we use. 

Why flush waste into a system in every city wasting water and energy afterwards trying to clean it up? Why not instead have individual systems where each family deals with its own waste? 

Methane is also explosive but so is gas.


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## Toddsterpatriot (Mar 4, 2016)

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*I gave you the cost sheets.*

Cost sheets for hydrogen? Where?

*Why flush waste into a system in every city wasting water and energy afterwards trying to clean it up? Why not instead have individual systems where each family deals with its own waste?
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Cheaper, better, to do it in one place.
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Methane is also explosive but so is gas.
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Not as explosive as hydrogen. Methane also has a lot more energy than an identical volume of hydrogen.
And methane is easily drilled for, all over the world. Unlike hydrogen which takes energy to create.


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## RodISHI (Mar 4, 2016)

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The cost sheet are for current electric sources but here is another source for you.
The True Cost of Electricity Calculated
By the way the Koch's and the sovereign fund need to find another mode to push their agenda.

Actually long term dumping all waste into one system is not the most efficient regardless of what area of the country it is in.


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## koshergrl (Mar 4, 2016)

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 Nope, they don't. They won't be happy until all the old people who are living on fixed incomes are dead...either frozen or starved, because of their idiotic environmental policies that are meaningless...except that they make poor people poorer, give the government more power, and make it nearly impossible for poor people to eat and heat their homes.


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## Toddsterpatriot (Mar 4, 2016)

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*The cost sheet are for current electric sources*

Did you see how much cheaper the nuclear fuel cost was?

*Actually long term dumping all waste into one system is not the most efficient
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Actually sewage processing at a central location is most efficient.


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## RodISHI (Mar 4, 2016)

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I did see something. I am hoping others will take a looksee closer.

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			Nuclear energy costs, predictably, much more than other sources because of the truly massive costs of disasters like Fukushima and Chernobyl.
		
Click to expand...

*


> The report continues:
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> Calculating the cost of nuclear energy is more difficult. *A newly constructed nuclear power plant raises the average cost to about 0.20 *euros per kWh, according to the California Energy Commission. *By contrast, old, written off plants in Germany produce electricity at a bargain rate of 0.02 or 0.03 euros per kWh.*
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## RodISHI (Mar 4, 2016)

Now for the sewage issue it will take me a bit longer to put that one to rest. We are getting a little closer to what my papa taught me in that field. I'll put that up for you tomorrow.


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## Toddsterpatriot (Mar 4, 2016)

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Hydrogen dead yet?


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## RodISHI (Mar 4, 2016)

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No why would it be.


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## Toddsterpatriot (Mar 4, 2016)

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You can't seem to find a source.


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## RodISHI (Mar 4, 2016)

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I'm not looking to give you one.


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## Toddsterpatriot (Mar 4, 2016)

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I understand your inability/reluctance to provide one.


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## RodISHI (Mar 4, 2016)

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No actually you don't.


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## Toddsterpatriot (Mar 4, 2016)

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You either have no clue about sources.....or you found one and realized it was stupid.


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## RodISHI (Mar 5, 2016)

Initiatives that can help solve the energy and pollution problems via alternative energy forms.

Use Biomass from every available resource. Even dirty diapers and plastic waste can be made into biomass pellets. Waste paper and wood products or small tree farms can also be utilized for biomass boilers.

Human, animal and all other forms of organic waste can be utilized to for Methane production. The Methane is already being produced by dairies and various facilities throughout the nation. Waste Management already does this and has for years. Each household could also have its own individual digester system. These can be purchased from a supplier or you can do a DYI fairly easily. Ideally Methane is easier to deal with in warmer areas but can be utilized in both colder weather climates and warmer weather climates. There are a lot of videos on the subject. The affluent from these systems makes great fertilizer so fewer chemicals are needed throughout to grow food. As individuals become more self sufficient concerning their own waste products the problem issues that municipalities face with large public sewage systems decrease. The public and farm waste increasing the overload of nutrients going into water ways and eco systems throughout the country will also decrease.



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Again I am sure you are capable.
electric generation hydrogen - Google Search


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## Toddsterpatriot (Mar 5, 2016)

RodISHI said:


> Initiatives that can help solve the energy and pollution problems via alternative energy forms.
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Your idea for green energy cars is to use perfectly good electricity to generate hydrogen?
Thanks, that's one of the best stupid sources of hydrogen.


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## RodISHI (Mar 5, 2016)

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I did not believe you were serious but you just proved it. Sometimes people just have to listen to that little voice inside that says to you, "This person is a fake". Thanks for the verification.


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## Toddsterpatriot (Mar 5, 2016)

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I did not believe you were serious but you just proved it
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I'm serious, the idea of hydrogen as a clean fuel is idiotic.
Glad to verify that for you.


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## RodISHI (Mar 5, 2016)

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Fracking and nuclear is what is idiotic.


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## Toddsterpatriot (Mar 5, 2016)

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Yes, watermelons often dislike cheap, reliable energy.


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## RodISHI (Mar 5, 2016)

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People do not like the like the lingering effects of your kind of reliable energy. Most get really pissy about being poisoned and irradiated.


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## Toddsterpatriot (Mar 5, 2016)

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People who die because of expensive, unreliable energy don't get pissy.

When you get a chance, look up how many people have been killed by the US civilian nuclear energy industry.


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## RodISHI (Mar 5, 2016)

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Your barking up the wrong tree my dad had a cancer that was caused from working for a few months in a nuclear facility.


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## Toddsterpatriot (Mar 5, 2016)

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I doubt that, but please, elaborate.


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## RodISHI (Mar 5, 2016)

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Doubt what you like. He was there at San Onofre in the 70's for a bit when they had to do upgrades.


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## Toddsterpatriot (Mar 5, 2016)

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You don't think that everyone who ever worked there and later got cancer can blame it on San Onofre, do you?


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## RodISHI (Mar 5, 2016)

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Actually the union families are pretty tight and yes others that worked there had associative cancer from working there.


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## Toddsterpatriot (Mar 5, 2016)

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Unless there was some sort of radioactive release, not a lot of extra cancers can be blamed on working there.


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## RodISHI (Mar 5, 2016)

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So you think the expert doctors are telling lies?


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## Toddsterpatriot (Mar 5, 2016)

RodISHI said:


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The plural of anecdote is not data.


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## RodISHI (Mar 5, 2016)

Toddsterpatriot said:


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You really do make your self look ridiculous on this issue if you think the majority are not aware of the dangers of radium and radiation at this point.


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## Toddsterpatriot (Mar 5, 2016)

RodISHI said:


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Your father was exposed to radium at the plant? What was his job there?


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## RodISHI (Mar 5, 2016)

Toddsterpatriot said:


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Ask your self what kind of union jobs are done at a nuclear plant. No I've gave you enough personal information and I am not going to go back and forth on nuclear with you. There is a whole lot of people gathered to do that already.


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## Toddsterpatriot (Mar 5, 2016)

RodISHI said:


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I'm asking myself what kind of union job would expose someone to radium.
Not coming up with an answer.


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## bripat9643 (Mar 25, 2016)

Fueri said:


> IMO this is one of those things that shot out of the gate so fast that the regulations haven't been able to keep pace.
> 
> I'm all for cheap fossil fuels.  who doesn't like a bit of relief at the pump after $4-5/gallon gas.  Dropping 60 bucks to fill sucks.  And I can't say that seeing the Saudis and their ilk take a solid kick to the nuts isn't more than a little satisfying.
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My guess is that you're a douche bag who doesn't know his ass from a hole in the ground.  The "tap water on fire" thing was proven to be a hoax.


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## Toro (Mar 25, 2016)

Fracking has been one of the best things ever to happen in the energy industry.


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## Fueri (Mar 25, 2016)

bripat9643 said:


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Your guess is flat wrong fuck face.

I develop sensing technologies for, among other things, the oil and gas industries.  In other words douchenozzle I know exactly what I'm talking about in terms of these sorts of technologies/regulations for this being behind the curve.

ETA:  and BTW, I was clear in that I am not against fracking.  I'm only againt allowing greed to push things too fast to the point where we really do not not know what the impacts of our actions will be, as happens whenever there is all that lovely money to be had.


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## bripat9643 (Mar 25, 2016)

Fueri said:


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We already know.  The issue has been investigated ad nauseum and litigated.  If you knew your ass from a hole in the ground you would at least know that, but you don't.


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## Fueri (Mar 25, 2016)

bripat9643 said:


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Sure, your internet google skills are clearly greater than decades of actual first hand work.  

Of course it's been litigated.  And of course big oil has plenty of money to do so, and influence lawmakers, something else I also mentioned already.  So did big tobacco, the automakers and big pharma today.  

Quite simply you know nothing of the technologies, nothing of the dangers and are too fucking stupid to for two seconds listen to anyone that gores your sacred cow with a simple message of caution in the face of large corporate greed running out in front of reasonable measures.  If you can't process that simple message your head is so far up your ass that not even I could find it.


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## bripat9643 (Mar 25, 2016)

Fueri said:


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My father was a petroleum geologist, so I think I know a thing or two about the technology.  You sound exactly like the usual anti-technology leftwing douche bag.  You haven't produced a single shred of evidence that fracking is dangerous.  All you've done is issue scary warnings about "big pharma" and "big oil" just like any leftwing douche bag would.


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## Fueri (Mar 25, 2016)

bripat9643 said:


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First, I'm about as left wing as you are.  On this issue I advocate caution.  That does not make me left wing, it makes me sensible.

Second, I don't give a damn what your daddy did x number of years ago or what you think you know because of what he did.

Third, if using common sense to point out the obvious fact that large companies will spend whatever necessary to pursue their interests via court actions and lobbyists is an alien concept, you're so buried by your own dogma that you won't allow yourself to utilize common sense.

Here's a fact,  the epa is pushing for the abandonment of ionizing radioactive isotopes as radiation sources in the systems used to inspect wells for integrity issues, such as casement cracking.  They are doing it in part because of the dangers presented by fracking in terms of unwanted things leeching to places where they are not intended to go.  I know this because I am one of the people working to replace these isotopes with non-ionizing radiation sources.  

You can continue to claim that I know nothing, but it's simply not so.  Millions upon millions of dollars are being spent on these things, and we are, without question, well behind the curve in terms of what we'd like to have in terms of proper tools.  That bothers me- and a lot of other people that actually have an eyeball on this stuff.

And again, I'm not advocating for abandonment of fracking at all, but do not think that allowing corporations, that have proven time and time again that they care only about money, to run out in front of sensible safety measures is a particularly smart thing to do.


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