# The problem with education



## Zander

The problem with public education - summed up perfectly in a cartoon......







These grades are terrible!!                                                        these grades are terrrible!!


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## bodecea

Zander said:


> The problem with public education - summed up perfectly in a cartoon......
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> These grades are terrible!!                                                        these grades are terrrible!!



How very, very true.


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## Mr. H.

We got an even better education in the 50's...

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vA8s6cQsC2k]smackdown - YouTube[/ame]


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## editec

That's certainly part of the problem.

That is also, incidently, a damned good argument for ending education run by LOCAL school boards.


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## Care4all

why did the kid's parents start complaining about their grades?  sure the school should hold their ground, a bad grade is a bad grade....but it seems to me, in the cartoon's last pic....it's the PARENT's that are the real problem!


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## chanel

I love it!  But there needs to be a third frame, with the principal berating the teacher.

I teach seniors.  There is an unwritten rule that: ALL WILL GRADUATE ON TIME!  (Esp. the criminals)


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## bodecea

bigrebnc1775 said:


> bodecea said:
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> Zander said:
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> The problem with public education - summed up perfectly in a cartoon......
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> These grades are terrible!!                                                        these grades are terrrible!!
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> How very, very true.
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> Click to expand...
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> You're not believable because you're a LIAR THAT WELSHED ON THE BET BE GONE BITCH
Click to expand...


I have a pet.


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## Dont Taz Me Bro

editec said:


> That's certainly part of the problem.
> 
> That is also, incidently, a damned good argument for ending education run by LOCAL school boards.



What exactly does bad parenting have to do with local school boards?


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## Dont Taz Me Bro

Zander said:


> The problem with public education - summed up perfectly in a cartoon......



I would argue that another big problem with public education is that it's compulsory.


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## bodecea

bigrebnc1775 said:


> Dont Taz Me Bro said:
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> Zander said:
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> The problem with public education - summed up perfectly in a cartoon......
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> I would argue that another big problem with public education is that it's compulsory.
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> Click to expand...
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> Just for you
> You're not believable because you're a LIAR THAT WELSHED ON THE BET BE GONE BITCH
Click to expand...


LOL...wrong poster.


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## bodecea

bigrebnc1775 said:


> bodecea said:
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> bigrebnc1775 said:
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> Just for you
> You're not believable because you're a LIAR THAT WELSHED ON THE BET BE GONE BITCH
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> LOL...wrong poster.
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> Click to expand...
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> 
> nope
> You're not believable because you're a LIAR THAT WELSHED ON THE BET BE GONE BITCH
Click to expand...


LOL...I'm not "Don't Taz me Bro"....


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## Jackson

Some of those same parents who blame the teacher may not be checking to see that homework is done, actively support the school, so the child knows his boundaries and doesn't read with their children when they are young.

Maybe they are too busy on the computer... did you check to see your kid's homework tonight?  lol


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## bodecea

Jackson said:


> Some of those same parents who blame the teacher may not be checking to see that homework is done, actively support the school, so the child knows his boundaries and doesn't read with their children when they are young.
> 
> Maybe they are too busy on the computer... did you check to see your kid's homework tonight?  lol



I know around here, some of the schools, 70-80% of the parents are illiterate.


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## syrenn

It seems to me that its the parents fault....in both cases.


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## psikeyhackr

Actually I found it odd when my mother didn't say anything about my D's in religion.

Of course I would do the same thing if I had it to do over.

Where is the criticism of the books and the tests?  If people can graduate from Harvard but can't explain what causes summer and winter and educators think that is OK then there is another problem somewhere.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p0wk4qG2mIg]Harvard Graduates Explain Seasons - YouTube[/ame]


And she gave a crappy explanation saying noting about the gyroscopic action of the planet keeping the axis pointed in one direction as the Earth orbits the Sun.  Grade school physics.  Like airliners hitting skyscrapers.

psik


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## caela

My daughter will have a serious problem if she brings home grades like that. She'll have the '69 version to deal with, not the '09 version!


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## psikeyhackr

caela said:


> My daughter will have a serious problem if she brings home grades like that. She'll have the '69 version to deal with, not the '09 version!



I had straight A's in math with my straight D's in religion.  LOL

It is not my fault that religion is really stupid.

psik


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## caela

psikeyhackr said:


> caela said:
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> My daughter will have a serious problem if she brings home grades like that. She'll have the '69 version to deal with, not the '09 version!
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> I had straight A's in math with my straight D's in religion.  LOL
> 
> It is not my fault that religion is really stupid.
> 
> psik
Click to expand...


Now with grades like that I'd have to find out what the problem was causing the disparity. Were you not doing the work, or were your own views so opposite of the teacher's that you were being graded poorly based on your opinions more than the quality of your work?

If my daughter weren't doing the work then she'd find herself being punished. If she was doing the work (and doing it well, not just half-assing it) and the teacher just didn't like what she was saying then I'd be talking with the teacher, then the principal, then the school-board until her grades were changed appropriately. As long as the actual assignment is done and the criteria are met, you shouldn't get graded down just because the teacher doesn't like what you have to say.


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## flacaltenn

I had a lengthy debate with a Pub school teacher on another board. Mostly about standards and testing.  He couldn't understand why EVERYONE is up in his face about his job and his profession. He had a point. Considering that he gets pummeled by not only parents, but admins, principles, local boards, and the students themselves. And to add insult -- EVERYONE gets to blast him in the political arena.. 

Well -- it's because he's a *PUBLIC *school teacher. Not a private school teacher. That's the unfortunate side effect (largely) of being a publically paid civil servant. Everyone IS in your business. 

Private schools are not constantly nagged about standards and testing because they by and large HAVE TO MEET by CONTRACT the expectations of the parents. Public schools have no such accountibility. Parents trapped in a failing PUBLIC school have little recourse. 

We DO need to perform a triage and take some load off the Pub School teachers. They are battling against problems that they don't want and that they shouldn't be fighting in the 1st place. The pub school problem today -- needs an integrated multi-disciplinary approach to make a big diff in "failing schools". For "bad" schools -- it's a community problem, not an education problem largely. We shouldn't be attacking it from an education standpoint in the first place..


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## psikeyhackr

caela said:


> psikeyhackr said:
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> caela said:
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> My daughter will have a serious problem if she brings home grades like that. She'll have the '69 version to deal with, not the '09 version!
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> I had straight A's in math with my straight D's in religion.  LOL
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> It is not my fault that religion is really stupid.
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> psik
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> Click to expand...
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> 
> Now with grades like that I'd have to find out what the problem was causing the disparity. Were you not doing the work, or were your own views so opposite of the teacher's that you were being graded poorly based on your opinions more than the quality of your work?
Click to expand...


Brother Edwards idea of teaching religion was copying pages and drawing pictures out of the catechisms we HAD TO BUY.  We probably had to do 20 assignments every grading period.  I did 3 in September and decided it was WAY TOO STOOPDI!  I thought I was going to get and F.  I concluded the school must have a policy of not flunking people at religion.  So I did no more assignments for the rest of the year.  Straight D's.

I am still pretty much an agnostic.  Even the New Atheists are pretty boring.  Have they said anything that wasn't said as well 50 years ago?

The idea that all subjects are equally important is ridiculous.  And then they require 4 years of English literature and no accounting.  Double-entry accounting would have been more useful than most of the more complex math I did get and usually got A's in.  Why aren't parents demanding accounting for all kids instead of just insisting that kids get good grades in whatever junk they have to take?

Why aren't parents exchanging info and creating a reading list and ignoring a lot of what the schools say?  I just don't get this TRUST IN AUTHORITY mentality.

psik


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## Katzndogz

It seems that the guidelines for teaching LGBT history is causing some to wonder just what the hell we think we are doing.

California schools will need help on teaching about gays - latimes.com


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## Zander

Mary has two mommies. One of them was a daddy before. He was sad because he really felt like a mommy inside.  Then he went to the doctor and became a mommy. Now he is a she...and a mommy too! The other mommy has very short hair and wears pants. 

Jack has two daddies.  One of them likes show tunes, Barbra Streisand, and cooking shows. The other daddy wears lots of leather clothing with spikes and lifts weights. He is really strong.


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## bodecea

Zander said:


> Mary has two mommies. One of them was a daddy before. He was sad because he really felt like a mommy inside.  Then he went to the doctor and became a mommy. Now he is a she...and a mommy too! The other mommy has very short hair and wears pants.
> 
> Jack has two daddies.  One of them likes show tunes, Barbra Streisand, and cooking shows. The other daddy wears lots of leather clothing with spikes and lifts weights. He is really strong.



That has SO MUCH to do with parents not caring about their children doing well in school these days.


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## Ravi

Zander said:


> The problem with public education - summed up perfectly in a cartoon......
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> These grades are terrible!!                                                        these grades are terrrible!!



Yep. So many parents think their little angel can do no wrong. Teachers cannot direct their own classes without running afoul of some PC bullshit. A prime example is the thread yesterday about a spanish class learning the Mexican pledge as part of their lesson plan.

Just flat out stupidity.


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## Ravi

Anyone read Samson's epic meltdown thread where he blamed the teachers, the principal, and probably the entire school board because his 10th grader didn't do his work?


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## flacaltenn

Ravi said:


> Zander said:
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> The problem with public education - summed up perfectly in a cartoon......
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> These grades are terrible!!                                                        these grades are terrrible!!
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> Yep. So many parents think their little angel can do no wrong. Teachers cannot direct their own classes without running afoul of some PC bullshit. A prime example is the thread yesterday about a spanish class learning the Mexican pledge as part of their lesson plan.
> 
> Just flat out stupidity.
Click to expand...


I agree with you on that one.. But we've been conditioned to expect the worst.


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## caela

psikeyhackr said:


> caela said:
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> psikeyhackr said:
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> I had straight A's in math with my straight D's in religion.  LOL
> 
> It is not my fault that religion is really stupid.
> 
> psik
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> Now with grades like that I'd have to find out what the problem was causing the disparity. Were you not doing the work, or were your own views so opposite of the teacher's that you were being graded poorly based on your opinions more than the quality of your work?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Brother Edwards idea of teaching religion was copying pages and drawing pictures out of the catechisms we HAD TO BUY.  We probably had to do 20 assignments every grading period.  I did 3 in September and decided it was WAY TOO STOOPDI!  I thought I was going to get and F.  I concluded the school must have a policy of not flunking people at religion.  So I did no more assignments for the rest of the year.  Straight D's.
> 
> I am still pretty much an agnostic.  Even the New Atheists are pretty boring.  Have they said anything that wasn't said as well 50 years ago?
> 
> The idea that all subjects are equally important is ridiculous.  And then they require 4 years of English literature and no accounting.  Double-entry accounting would have been more useful than most of the more complex math I did get and usually got A's in.  Why aren't parents demanding accounting for all kids instead of just insisting that kids get good grades in whatever junk they have to take?
> 
> Why aren't parents exchanging info and creating a reading list and ignoring a lot of what the schools say?  I just don't get this TRUST IN AUTHORITY mentality.
> 
> psik
Click to expand...


O.k., that's an idiotic assignment. You learn very little just copying out of a book. Hell I can copy out of a book and have _no clue_ what I just wrote. My daughter won't be in a religious school but, if she were, I'd still make her do the assignment because it IS the assignment. It would be more of a lesson in the fact that we can't just skip the parts of school/work/life that we don't like, than a lesson for the class however and I wouldn't complain about her doing the bare minimum to maintain at least a B in the class. 

And I'd find something else for her to do/read/watch/write etc. on the subject for ME so that I knew she was learning something.

You're right that not all classes are created equal. I don't know about accounting, but a class in basic money management and the way credit works would be useful. So many kids come out of school with no real idea how to balance a checkbook or how to build/maintain credit and a lot of their parents don't know either! My own folks mangled their own and never taught me a thing about it so now I am digging myself out of a hole I was never told I could fall into! Actually, we won't need a class on this, I'll teach it to my daughter myself.

I don't know why so many parents just "go with the flow" when it comes to their childrens educations. I don't. My 3 year old is already learning basic addition skills (really basic, she uses her fingers to get the answers but she's *3*! lol) and word recognition as well as realizing that it's letters that form words and starting phonics to sound words out. Learning is all a game when they're little and it's damned fun to watch them learn. 

Mine WILL have a reading list and a lot of them will be read together before she's ever out of elementary school. Lots of classics (Alice in Wonderland, Oliver Twist etc) can be read to kids and be a bonding time for them and parents. I'll be as selective, as she gets older about what she reads as I am about what I allow her to watch...so many books out there for kids/young adults are just trash. 

Though I suppose trash is better than video games all day.


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## Sunshine

Dont Taz Me Bro said:


> editec said:
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> 
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> That's certainly part of the problem.
> 
> That is also, incidently, a damned good argument for ending education run by LOCAL school boards.
> 
> 
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> What exactly does bad parenting have to do with local school boards?
Click to expand...


Where I'm from, there was a time when bad parenting didn't have anything to do with bad grades.  Kids with bad parents saw getting through school as their ticket to a better life.  And many educators encouraged them to achieve in spite of it.


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## Unkotare

psikeyhackr said:


> caela said:
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> My daughter will have a serious problem if she brings home grades like that. She'll have the '69 version to deal with, not the '09 version!
> 
> 
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> I had straight A's in math with my straight D's in religion.  LOL
> 
> It is not my fault that religion is really stupid.
> 
> psik
Click to expand...



Sounds like it WAS your fault that you are really stupid.


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## psikeyhackr

Unkotare said:


> psikeyhackr said:
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> caela said:
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> My daughter will have a serious problem if she brings home grades like that. She'll have the '69 version to deal with, not the '09 version!
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> I had straight A's in math with my straight D's in religion.  LOL
> 
> It is not my fault that religion is really stupid.
> 
> psik
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> Click to expand...
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> 
> Sounds like it WAS your fault that you are really stupid.
Click to expand...


And getting better grades in religion would have accomplished what?   

psik


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## Samson

editec said:


> That's certainly part of the problem.
> 
> That is also, incidently, a damned good argument for ending education run by LOCAL school boards.





How did you arrive at that absurd conclusion?

Local school boards are the common denominator in both frames.


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## Samson

chanel said:


> I love it!  But there needs to be a third frame, with the principal berating the teacher.
> 
> I teach seniors.  There is an unwritten rule that: ALL WILL GRADUATE ON TIME!  (Esp. the criminals)



We oughta fail them and let you teach them ALL in Summer School.


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## Samson

Dont Taz Me Bro said:


> Zander said:
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> The problem with public education - summed up perfectly in a cartoon......
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> I would argue that another big problem with public education is that it's compulsory.
Click to expand...


Indeed.



This is the single biggest problem.


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## psikeyhackr

caela said:


> You're right that not all classes are created equal. I don't know about accounting, but a class in basic money management and the way credit works would be useful. So many kids come out of school with no real idea how to balance a checkbook or how to build/maintain credit and a lot of their parents don't know either! My own folks mangled their own and never taught me a thing about it so now I am digging myself out of a hole I was never told I could fall into! Actually, we won't need a class on this, I'll teach it to my daughter myself.



The Accounting Game: Basic Accounting Fresh From the Lemonade Stand
Foolish Book Review: "The Accounting Game"

The whole idea that accounting is difficult is ridiculous.

Most accounting books are crap.  I have another book that is 800+ pages, costs $90 and has lots of color glossy pictures.  It does not have the basic accounting equation until page 48.

Assets - Liabilities = Net Worth

That is a 3rd grade level equation.  It should have been on page 5.  Our schools make us buy over priced books with watered down knowledge.

These debates are really about SCHOOLING not EDUCATION.  Our professional educators don't want most people educating themselves without the schools.  But these computers are game changers.  If people can store books on computers and share information world wide then good information can't disappear into dusty libraries with thousands of crappy books and go out of print.

When do we revolt against the TRADITION of Education?  I mean Schooling.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YR5ApYxkU-U]Pink Floyd - Another Brick In The Wall (HQ) - YouTube[/ame]

psik


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## Unkotare

psikeyhackr said:


> Unkotare said:
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> psikeyhackr said:
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> I had straight A's in math with my straight D's in religion.  LOL
> 
> It is not my fault that religion is really stupid.
> 
> psik
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> Sounds like it WAS your fault that you are really stupid.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> And getting better grades in religion would have accomplished what?
> 
> psik
Click to expand...


A better overall grade point average for one. A demonstration that you were capable of getting better grades in that subject for another. Perhaps most importantly, an indication that you were more interested in being a good student and a generally capable person than being a pissy little self-important shitstain.


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## Unkotare

psikeyhackr said:


> When do we revolt against the TRADITION of Education?  I mean Schooling.







Feel free to homeschool your own kids.


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## psikeyhackr

Unkotare said:


> A better overall grade point average for one. A demonstration that you were capable of getting better grades in that subject for another. Perhaps most importantly, an indication that you were more interested in being a good student and a generally capable person than being a pissy little self-important shitstain.



So you don't think my straight A's in physics, chemistry and biology helped my GPA.  

You expect kids to be morons who follow orders even when the orders are STUPID.

Here is an example of the kind of science fiction I liked in grade school and high school.

All Day September - Roger Kuykendall | Feedbooks  <- Link

That story is from 1959 and is about finding water on the Moon.  We didn't actually find water there until 2009.  So that story was 50 years ahead of its time and 10 years before the actual Moon landing.  It also talks about turbines and electrolyzing water.  I was reading about the evolution of stars and nuclear fusion in grade school.  Your concept of education is about making children DUMB.

SF made science more interesting than my science teachers and probably helped me get those A's.

Here is a different type of sci-fi.

Subversive  by Reynolds Mack
"Subversive" by Reynolds Mack Free Download. The book is added by K. Havard (Texas) Read online books at OnRead.com.

This is not science fiction by A. E. Van Vogt had the same ideas.

The Tyranny of Words (1938) by Stuart Chase
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M9H1StY1nU8]"The Tyranny of Words" - YouTube[/ame]

I could have read that in high school but none of my teachers told me about it.  They probably didn't know.  That is why a good reading list could be so useful.  But it might be why teachers never mention the concept.

People like you are largely the reason the educational system is so screwed up.

psik


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## Unkotare

psikeyhackr said:


> So you don't think my straight A's in physics, chemistry and biology helped my GPA.





I didn't say that, did I? Did you decide reading comprehension wasn't an important enough subject as well? 

It's clear you were a pissy little punk and haven't changed much. It's just a shame you didn't have anyone who cared enough to cuff you in the back of the head and teach you to stop being a little prick. You'd have been much better off.


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## Unkotare

psikeyhackr said:


> Here is an example of the kind of science fiction I liked in grade school and high school.





Who the fuck asked you or cares? It's clear you were failed miserably by the educational system and any adults in your life. A shame.


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## Unkotare

psikeyhackr said:


> People like you are largely the reason the educational system is so screwed up.





People like you are proof that kids need to learn discipline and focus and the fact that their own little egos are NOT the center of the universe.


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## psikeyhackr

Unkotare said:


> psikeyhackr said:
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> Here is an example of the kind of science fiction I liked in grade school and high school.
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> 
> 
> Who the fuck asked you or cares? It's clear you were failed miserably by the educational system and any adults in your life. A shame.
Click to expand...


You must care since you keep responding to my posts.

Afraid you might learn something from reading it.  

I explained what was in it.  But you would have had me wasting time copying garbage so I supplied info about the alternative use of my time.

psik


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## Unkotare

psikeyhackr said:


> Unkotare said:
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> psikeyhackr said:
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> Here is an example of the kind of science fiction I liked in grade school and high school.
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> Who the fuck asked you or cares? It's clear you were failed miserably by the educational system and any adults in your life. A shame.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You must care since you keep responding to my posts.
Click to expand...




Did I ask you what science fiction you liked to read as a child? No I did not. Does it have anything to do with you being a pissy little punk who tanked a class because you didn't 'like' it? No it does not. I guess you never learned to focus either.


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## psikeyhackr

Unkotare said:


> Did I ask you what science fiction you liked to read as a child? No I did not. Does it have anything to do with you being a pissy little punk who tanked a class because you didn't 'like' it? No it does not. I guess you never learned to focus either.



I "tanked" the entire religion years before I ever took the class dude.

I simply gave you an example of a superior information source.  I notice you make no comment about the straight A's in the sciences.  Did you do that?

psik


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## Unkotare

psikeyhackr said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> Did I ask you what science fiction you liked to read as a child? No I did not. Does it have anything to do with you being a pissy little punk who tanked a class because you didn't 'like' it? No it does not. I guess you never learned to focus either.
> 
> 
> 
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> I "tanked" the entire religion years before I ever took the class dude.
> 
> I simply gave you an example of a superior information source.  I notice you make no comment about the straight A's in the sciences.  Did you do that?
Click to expand...


Did I ask you what science fiction you liked to read as a child? No I did not. Did I ask you about your grades in other classes? No I did not. Does it have anything to do with you being a pissy little punk who tanked a class because you didn't 'like' it? No it does not. If you decided you didn't 'like' history would your reading science fiction have any-fucking-thing to do with you failing history because you were a stupid little punk? No it would not. I guess you never learned to focus either.


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## AngelPreto

Some of the parents blame on teachers and also some of teachers blame on parents for it. But it's the overall problem you can find everywhere. The mistake is only of our education system.


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## chanel

Can I vent for a moment?  Today we had a meeting regarding the national "Common Core Standards" (a separate web site) which is supposed to guide our instruction starting next September.  The teachers have been asked to align these standards with the "NJ Core Curriculum Standards", (a separate web site) which are a completely different skill set (process vs. content).  In addition, we are to use a unit planning program, (a separate web site) to aid in completing our weekly lesson plans (a separate web site), while incorporating the skill deficiencies of our students which have been identified by our in house testing program ( a separate web site).  Mind you, special education teachers are supposed to use the IEP (a separate web site) in order to provide individualized instruction to each student.  

Did I mention that my computer is 8 years old?

Each of these programs require on-going teacher training and district licenses at a cost of tens of thousands of dollars.

I don't think anyone at the meeting had a fucking clue as to what they were asking us to do.  Except me.  I busted up laughing like a crazy person.

And they wonder why Johnny can't read.

Your tax dollars at work.


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## psikeyhackr

chanel said:


> Did I mention that my computer is 8 years old?



Get a used computer.  Probably about 3 years old.  Probably a good idea to put in a new hard drive.  Unfortunately drive prices have been going up because of flood in Thailand.  Ain't that ridiculous?  Allowing something that can be manufactured anywhere to get that concentrated.

Anyway, our so called EDUACTIONAL SYSTEM is really designed to serve the economic interests of the educational bureaucracy.  Teachers are only slightly higher on the totem pole than the students.

The culture has an imperialistic psychology so everything is done in an imperialistic manner.  Students need to find good books and mostly ignore the system.

The Shockwave Rider  by John Brunner
Peak Energy: The Shockwave Rider

psik


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## jaffeh

I've been trying to educate Americans in backward states for thirty years.  

I'm mostly liberal thinking except when it comes to children.  I wasn't allowed to lean to liberal until I was  thirty and didn't care for Reagan.

But liberal policies toward children and education don't work.  I went to school in the sixties, and when I went out to teach high school in the late seventies, early eighties, liberal policies in education had taken hold.  They haven't gotten better.   

But we have a whole generation and more of teachers who grew up with the lousy policies.  

Whoever said he got a better education in the fifties was right.  Kids don't change, but attitudes toward them do.  In the fifties and sixties and before, respect for teachers and school was required, sincere or not.  Accomplishment was required for reward.    Parents, trying to make the kids grow up well, trusted educators.  The old "if you get paddled at school, you'll get it again when you get home" rule applied, and it made a believer out of me.  I curbed my behavior.


----------



## chanel

There are many reasons for that jaffeh, but in my experience, here in NJ, most of the blame goes the lawyers.   At any given time, our district is being sued for one thing or another.  Most are frivolous, but not worth fighting.  

I just read an article about some football players in North Jersey that have been charged with aggravated assault.  The school put them on "activity restriction" which is standard discipline when a serious crime occurs off school grounds.  After a "4 hour meeting with the players' parents and LAWYERS," the board reversed their decisiion and will allow the boys to play in the championship.  

No one has any balls anymore.  If I were superintendent of that school, I would have told those parents and lawyers to get the fuck out of my office and get in line to sue us.  But lawsuits cost money, so bending over seems to be the only way.

What a wonderful message to send to the other students in that school, eh?  Football is more important than nearly beating a kid to death.


----------



## chanel

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zDZFcDGpL4U]RSA Animate - Changing Education Paradigms - YouTube[/ame]


----------



## iamwhatiseem

The problem in American education is IMO:

1) Decisions are made by those from the outside looking in.
2) Teachers Unions. 
3) Department of Education which has categorically failed in every single facet that it was chartered to improve.
4) Parents uninvolved with their child's education.
5) Parents holding their children blameless
6) An ever increasing amoral society that does a *TERRIBLE* job of rewarding high achievers while excusing and passing under achievers. 
7) Last but by no means - politics...getting government the HELL out of educating our children.


----------



## Samson

chanel said:


> No one has any balls anymore.  If I were superintendent of that school, I would have told those parents and lawyers to get the fuck out of my office and get in line to sue us.  But lawsuits cost money, so bending over seems to be the only way.
> 
> What a wonderful message to send to the other students in that school, eh?  Football is more important than nearly beating a kid to death.



You are mistaking the cause, but you certainly have the effect "down pat."

In actuality, it is practically impossible to sue any public entity, but school districts are a particularly tough nut. I'm not satying it's impossible, but unless a school bus stops on a train-track, you're unlikely to see any law suite attracing the attention of the vultures in silk ties.

HOWEVER, something almost as bad as losing money is Scandle and Publicity. Superintendents and Principals keep their jobs by not rocking the boat, which often require "bending over."


----------



## psikeyhackr

iamwhatiseem said:


> The problem in American education is IMO:
> 
> 1) Decisions are made by those from the outside looking in.
> 2) Teachers Unions.
> 3) Department of Education which has categorically failed in every single facet that it was chartered to improve.
> 4) Parents uninvolved with their child's education.
> 5) Parents holding their children blameless
> 6) An ever increasing amoral society that does a *TERRIBLE* job of rewarding high achievers while excusing and passing under achievers.
> 7) Last but by no means - politics...getting government the HELL out of educating our children.



Well if we quit assuming that education meant schooling and created a National Recommended Reading List, possibly by ignoring the people calling themselves educators maybe kids would learn more from reading THE RIGHT BOOKS than from teachers who have an economic interest in dribbling out information slowly.

I have both of these books:

The Accounting Game: Basic Accounting Fresh From the Lemonade Stand
The Accounting Game : Basic Accounting Fresh from the Lemonade Stand // Discounted Books from Excel Tip .com

Glencoe Accounting, First-Year Course
Glencoe Accounting, First-Year Course: Real-World Applications & Connections by Donald J. Guerrieri,F. Barry Haber,William B. Hoyt | uRead.com-Books | online bookstore | 9780078456701

The second book costs 5 or more times as much as the first.  It has the basic accounting equation on page 48 the first book has it on page 6.  Depreciation is on page 524 of the first and 114 of the second.  The first book is hard cover and has LOTS of color glossy pictures.  So is the objective to spend a lot of time and money learning a little or learn a lot in little time and not spend much.

Which is smart accounting?  Does smart accounting serve the purposes of these expensive schools?  Curious that they have never suggested mandatory accounting.  Don't teachers buy houses and cars like normal people?  So either they can't figure out what information is important or they are not making sure everyone knows it.

psik


----------



## FurthurBB

psikeyhackr said:


> iamwhatiseem said:
> 
> 
> 
> The problem in American education is IMO:
> 
> 1) Decisions are made by those from the outside looking in.
> 2) Teachers Unions.
> 3) Department of Education which has categorically failed in every single facet that it was chartered to improve.
> 4) Parents uninvolved with their child's education.
> 5) Parents holding their children blameless
> 6) An ever increasing amoral society that does a *TERRIBLE* job of rewarding high achievers while excusing and passing under achievers.
> 7) Last but by no means - politics...getting government the HELL out of educating our children.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well if we quit assuming that education meant schooling and created a National Recommended Reading List, possibly by ignoring the people calling themselves educators maybe kids would learn more from reading THE RIGHT BOOKS than from teachers who have an economic interest in dribbling out information slowly.
> 
> I have both of these books:
> 
> The Accounting Game: Basic Accounting Fresh From the Lemonade Stand
> The Accounting Game : Basic Accounting Fresh from the Lemonade Stand // Discounted Books from Excel Tip .com
> 
> Glencoe Accounting, First-Year Course
> Glencoe Accounting, First-Year Course: Real-World Applications & Connections by Donald J. Guerrieri,F. Barry Haber,William B. Hoyt | uRead.com-Books | online bookstore | 9780078456701
> 
> The second book costs 5 or more times as much as the first.  It has the basic accounting equation on page 48 the first book has it on page 6.  Depreciation is on page 524 of the first and 114 of the second.  The first book is hard cover and has LOTS of color glossy pictures.  So is the objective to spend a lot of time and money learning a little or learn a lot in little time and not spend much.
> 
> Which is smart accounting?  Does smart accounting serve the purposes of these expensive schools?  Curious that they have never suggested mandatory accounting.  Don't teachers buy houses and cars like normal people?  So either they can't figure out what information is important or they are not making sure everyone knows it.
> 
> psik
Click to expand...


I cannot see where the national reading lists we already have make that much difference.  Parents should definitely require more reading from children, but not all children can learn from reading alone.  I know three accountants and two engineers that have a lot of problems with reading.  My son, who is studying to be an engineer was taking calculus in middle school and had to go to special classes for reading.


----------



## Zander

Naperville Illinos students regularly score in the top1%  in the world for math and science. Yet they spend no more on education than neighboring school districts. The only thing they do differently is they make all of the students exercise. Exercising increases the ability to learn....,time to bring back mandatory PE classes for all students.


----------



## PoliticalChic

Care4all said:


> why did the kid's parents start complaining about their grades?  sure the school should hold their ground, a bad grade is a bad grade....but it seems to me, in the cartoon's last pic....it's the PARENT's that are the real problem!



Thom Friedman agrees with you....this was from his NYTimes article:

Fifteen-year-old students whose parents often read books with them during their first year of primary school show markedly higher scores in PISA 2009 than students whose parents read with them infrequently or not at all. The performance advantage among students whose parents read to them in their early school years is evident regardless of the familys socioeconomic background. Parents engagement with their 15-year-olds is strongly associated with better performance in PISA.http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/20/opinion/sunday/friedman-how-about-better-parents.html


----------



## JamesInFlorida

Zander said:


> Naperville Illinos students regularly score in the top1%  in the world for math and science. Yet they spend no more on education than neighboring school districts. The only thing they do differently is they make all of the students exercise. Exercising increases the ability to learn....,time to bring back mandatory PE classes for all students.



Great post. It also teaches children to work with others well, and participate in a team-like environment. PE def. serves it place in school, it's a shame that many schools are doing away with it.

edit: I started coaching high school hockey a few years ago, just for fun. And I was blown away at the "me, me, me" involved with most of the players. It's as if they didn't understand how to be apart of a team, and work towards a common goal for their organization. Almost all of them were like that (not all). 

Not to mention every kid's parents were complaining to me about having their kids be on the 1st line. Because their child was special. And forget about the kids who didn't make the team...their parents were the worst. I had one kid who didn't make the team his freshman year (I don't play favorites-the best players make the team), and he didn't complain, told me he was going to work really hard to make the team the next year. I told him I'd give him private lessons for free-and he did. He was so dedicated and worked so hard that the next year he didn't only make the team-he was one of the best players. The other kids who were cut never showed up the next year for tryouts-not sure if they quit or not, couldn't tell you. But I'm sure it was "my fault" either way. haha


----------



## OohPooPahDoo

Dont Taz Me Bro said:


> Zander said:
> 
> 
> 
> The problem with public education - summed up perfectly in a cartoon......
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I would argue that another big problem with public education is that it's compulsory.
Click to expand...


No its not. Parents may choose private schools or homeschooling.


----------



## Zander

JamesInFlorida said:


> Zander said:
> 
> 
> 
> Naperville Illinos students regularly score in the top1%  in the world for math and science. Yet they spend no more on education than neighboring school districts. The only thing they do differently is they make all of the students exercise. Exercising increases the ability to learn....,time to bring back mandatory PE classes for all students.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Great post. It also teaches children to work with others well, and participate in a team-like environment. PE def. serves it place in school, it's a shame that many schools are doing away with it.
> 
> edit: I started coaching high school hockey a few years ago, just for fun. And I was blown away at the "me, me, me" involved with most of the players. It's as if they didn't understand how to be apart of a team, and work towards a common goal for their organization. Almost all of them were like that (not all).
> 
> Not to mention every kid's parents were complaining to me about having their kids be on the 1st line. Because their child was special. And forget about the kids who didn't make the team...their parents were the worst. I had one kid who didn't make the team his freshman year (I don't play favorites-the best players make the team), and he didn't complain, told me he was going to work really hard to make the team the next year. I told him I'd give him private lessons for free-and he did. He was so dedicated and worked so hard that the next year he didn't only make the team-he was one of the best players. The other kids who were cut never showed up the next year for tryouts-not sure if they quit or not, couldn't tell you. But I'm sure it was "my fault" either way. haha
Click to expand...


Here is a link to some great research on the topic. I just finished the book "[ame="http://www.amazon.com/Spark-Revolutionary-Science-Exercise-Brain/dp/0316113506"]spark- the revolutionary new science of exercise [/ame]- very eye opening. 

John J. Ratey, MD


----------



## lizzie

Imo, the problem with education is mostly the parents, or the lack thereof. Teachers and social workers can never be an adequate replacement for parents who are fully involved in helping their children prepare for life. Family is the cornerstone of the foundation. Self-discilipine is the key to success. Self-disclipine begins in the home with parents who are willing to be parents for the well-being of their children.


----------



## Unkotare

JamesInFlorida said:


> Zander said:
> 
> 
> 
> Naperville Illinos students regularly score in the top1%  in the world for math and science. Yet they spend no more on education than neighboring school districts. The only thing they do differently is they make all of the students exercise. Exercising increases the ability to learn....,time to bring back mandatory PE classes for all students.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Great post. It also teaches children to work with others well, and participate in a team-like environment. PE def. serves it place in school, it's a shame that many schools are doing away with it.
> 
> edit: I started coaching high school hockey a few years ago, just for fun. And I was blown away at the "me, me, me" involved with most of the players. It's as if they didn't understand how to be apart of a team, and work towards a common goal for their organization. Almost all of them were like that (not all).
> 
> Not to mention every kid's parents were complaining to me about having their kids be on the 1st line. Because their child was special. And forget about the kids who didn't make the team...their parents were the worst. I had one kid who didn't make the team his freshman year (I don't play favorites-the best players make the team), and he didn't complain, told me he was going to work really hard to make the team the next year. I told him I'd give him private lessons for free-and he did. He was so dedicated and worked so hard that the next year he didn't only make the team-he was one of the best players. The other kids who were cut never showed up the next year for tryouts-not sure if they quit or not, couldn't tell you. But I'm sure it was "my fault" either way. haha
Click to expand...



Hockey parents are a special kind of nuts.


----------



## FurthurBB

Zander said:


> Naperville Illinos students regularly score in the top1%  in the world for math and science. Yet they spend no more on education than neighboring school districts. The only thing they do differently is they make all of the students exercise. Exercising increases the ability to learn....,time to bring back mandatory PE classes for all students.



In the world?  I would like to see these statistics because I do not believe it is in the world.  Also, my children's school is in the top 2% in the nation, and there is no increased exercise.  Though, they also do not spend a lot of money.  It is in an affluent neighborhood and only gets special things, like smart boards or fancy electronics, if the parents association pays for it.  They are the only school in my state to have only teachers with advanced degrees in middle school and high school, they have 11 students per teacher, and buy new books every year.  Seems anecdotal evidence is not going to work for this problem.


----------



## psikeyhackr

FurthurBB said:


> I cannot see where the national reading lists we already have make that much difference.  Parents should definitely require more reading from children, but not all children can learn from reading alone.  I know three accountants and two engineers that have a lot of problems with reading.  My son, who is studying to be an engineer was taking calculus in middle school and had to go to special classes for reading.



What national reading list do we already have?  I have looked around the net and seen lots of different lists.  Most don't have any explanation for how books are selected. 

psik


----------



## Zander

FurthurBB said:


> Zander said:
> 
> 
> 
> Naperville Illinos students regularly score in the top1%  in the world for math and science. Yet they spend no more on education than neighboring school districts. The only thing they do differently is they make all of the students exercise. Exercising increases the ability to learn....,time to bring back mandatory PE classes for all students.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In the world?  I would like to see these statistics because I do not believe it is in the world.  Also, my children's school is in the top 2% in the nation, and there is no increased exercise.  Though, they also do not spend a lot of money.  It is in an affluent neighborhood and only gets special things, like smart boards or fancy electronics, if the parents association pays for it.  They are the only school in my state to have only teachers with advanced degrees in middle school and high school, they have 11 students per teacher, and buy new books every year.  Seems anecdotal evidence is not going to work for this problem.
Click to expand...


The 8th grade 1999 Naperville students finished 6th in the WORLD for math and number 1 for science in the TIMSS (trends in international math and science study). there were 230,000 students from around the world that participated. It is well documented that EXERCISE dramatically improves the ability to learn.


EDIT- here is the link...http://skyatthey.com/about-4/research


----------



## Unkotare

You forgot the link.


----------



## Zander

Here is the link

Research « SKY Academy: SKY at the Y


----------



## rdean

For the right wing, the problem with education is "education".  Learning "stuff" is bad.  You could possibly end up "over-educated".


----------



## lizzie

rdean said:


> For the right wing, the problem with education is "education". Learning "stuff" is bad. You could possibly end up "over-educated".


 
Not at all. The problem with education is that we are failing to educate our children. A significant number of them graduate high school incapable of using the English language well, or punctuate and use grammar for effective communication. Almost every college kid I know nowadays has to take "remedial" math before they can even take college algebra. It's not like college algebra is different from high school algebra- they just aren't learning it.


----------



## Zander

rdean said:


> For the right wing, the problem with education is "education".  Learning "stuff" is bad.  You could possibly end up "over-educated".



You are a sad, pathetic, little man.


----------



## jillian

flacaltenn said:


> I had a lengthy debate with a Pub school teacher on another board. Mostly about standards and testing.  He couldn't understand why EVERYONE is up in his face about his job and his profession. He had a point. Considering that he gets pummeled by not only parents, but admins, principles, local boards, and the students themselves. And to add insult -- EVERYONE gets to blast him in the political arena..
> 
> Well -- it's because he's a *PUBLIC *school teacher. Not a private school teacher. That's the unfortunate side effect (largely) of being a publically paid civil servant. Everyone IS in your business.
> 
> Private schools are not constantly nagged about standards and testing because they by and large HAVE TO MEET by CONTRACT the expectations of the parents. Public schools have no such accountibility. Parents trapped in a failing PUBLIC school have little recourse.
> 
> We DO need to perform a triage and take some load off the Pub School teachers. They are battling against problems that they don't want and that they shouldn't be fighting in the 1st place. The pub school problem today -- needs an integrated multi-disciplinary approach to make a big diff in "failing schools". For "bad" schools -- it's a community problem, not an education problem largely. We shouldn't be attacking it from an education standpoint in the first place..



the difference between a private school teacher and a public school teacher lies in the obligation to educate ALL kids. public schools don't get to pick and choose... private schools do. behavior problem? private school doesn't have to take them. uneducable? private school doesn't have to take them. public school? has to take every last one... 

and then teachers get abused by people who don't think they should be paid for busing their butts.


----------



## lizzie

jillian said:


> the difference between a private school teacher and a public school teacher lies in the obligation to educate ALL kids. public schools don't get to pick and choose... private schools do. behavior problem? private school doesn't have to take them. uneducable? private school doesn't have to take them. public school? has to take every last one...
> 
> and then teachers get abused by people who don't think they should be paid for busing their butts.


 
What accounts for the fact that the public schools were doing a good job of educating us 50 years ago, but not now? It can't be strictly a matter of private schools picking and choosing. I'm not certain that just because someone is in private school they are automatically easier to educate. Just because Mom and Dad can afford private school doesn't mean that the child is any more teachable, and in fact may be an insufferable little jerk.


----------



## hortysir

How ironic is the Spanish?????


----------



## jillian

lizzie said:


> jillian said:
> 
> 
> 
> the difference between a private school teacher and a public school teacher lies in the obligation to educate ALL kids. public schools don't get to pick and choose... private schools do. behavior problem? private school doesn't have to take them. uneducable? private school doesn't have to take them. public school? has to take every last one...
> 
> and then teachers get abused by people who don't think they should be paid for busing their butts.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What accounts for the fact that the public schools were doing a good job of educating us 50 years ago, but not now? It can't be strictly a matter of private schools picking and choosing. I'm not certain that just because someone is in private school they are automatically easier to educate. Just because Mom and Dad can afford private school doesn't mean that the child is any more teachable, and in fact may be an insufferable little jerk.
Click to expand...


i think you're missing the point in that private schools can turn down any kid who is a problem student... even if mommy and daddy have money.

and yes, if they're in private school, they're easier to educate because the private school doesn't have to take kids who ARE difficult.


----------



## jillian

Zander said:


> FurthurBB said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Zander said:
> 
> 
> 
> Naperville Illinos students regularly score in the top1%  in the world for math and science. Yet they spend no more on education than neighboring school districts. The only thing they do differently is they make all of the students exercise. Exercising increases the ability to learn....,time to bring back mandatory PE classes for all students.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In the world?  I would like to see these statistics because I do not believe it is in the world.  Also, my children's school is in the top 2% in the nation, and there is no increased exercise.  Though, they also do not spend a lot of money.  It is in an affluent neighborhood and only gets special things, like smart boards or fancy electronics, if the parents association pays for it.  They are the only school in my state to have only teachers with advanced degrees in middle school and high school, they have 11 students per teacher, and buy new books every year.  Seems anecdotal evidence is not going to work for this problem.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The 8th grade 1999 Naperville students finished 6th in the WORLD for math and number 1 for science in the TIMSS (trends in international math and science study). there were 230,000 students from around the world that participated. It is well documented that EXERCISE dramatically improves the ability to learn.
> 
> 
> EDIT- here is the link...Research « SKY Academy: SKY at the Y
Click to expand...


that's interesting. and i can't say it surprises me.

but i'd also ask what the economic range of the students at that school was. i'm pretty sure that the higher the poverty level, the lower the test scores since poverty and education are a difficult mix. 

it may well be that the discipline from exercise carries over into other aress... which also doesn't surprise me.

when my son was in kindergarten, he had all 27 kids in his class crawling around on hands and knees pretending they were cats. 

when we got to school to pick him up, the teacher was about ready to have a nervous breakdown because her entire class was meowing...  she said "please take home the kitty cat". lol.. 

we decided tai kwan do would be a good idea at that point. 

and it was. doing marshal arts focused him, burned excess energy and disciplined him.


----------



## lizzie

jillian said:


> i think you're missing the point in that private schools can turn down any kid who is a problem student... even if mommy and daddy have money.
> 
> and yes, if they're in private school, they're easier to educate because the private school doesn't have to take kids who ARE difficult.


 
They can turn them down, but do they? I can't say I've ever heard of a child being refused a private school education.


----------



## hortysir

lizzie said:


> jillian said:
> 
> 
> 
> i think you're missing the point in that private schools can turn down any kid who is a problem student... even if mommy and daddy have money.
> 
> and yes, if they're in private school, they're easier to educate because the private school doesn't have to take kids who ARE difficult.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> They can turn them down, but do they? I can't say I've ever heard of a child being refused a private school education.
Click to expand...


You've never met TDM?


----------



## hortysir

*edit* or Rdean?


----------



## lizzie

hortysir said:


> lizzie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> jillian said:
> 
> 
> 
> i think you're missing the point in that private schools can turn down any kid who is a problem student... even if mommy and daddy have money.
> 
> and yes, if they're in private school, they're easier to educate because the private school doesn't have to take kids who ARE difficult.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> They can turn them down, but do they? I can't say I've ever heard of a child being refused a private school education.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You've never met TDM?
Click to expand...

 
I guess not. I have no idea who it is.


----------



## Zander

jillian said:


> Zander said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> FurthurBB said:
> 
> 
> 
> In the world?  I would like to see these statistics because I do not believe it is in the world.  Also, my children's school is in the top 2% in the nation, and there is no increased exercise.  Though, they also do not spend a lot of money.  It is in an affluent neighborhood and only gets special things, like smart boards or fancy electronics, if the parents association pays for it.  They are the only school in my state to have only teachers with advanced degrees in middle school and high school, they have 11 students per teacher, and buy new books every year.  Seems anecdotal evidence is not going to work for this problem.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The 8th grade 1999 Naperville students finished 6th in the WORLD for math and number 1 for science in the TIMSS (trends in international math and science study). there were 230,000 students from around the world that participated. It is well documented that EXERCISE dramatically improves the ability to learn.
> 
> 
> EDIT- here is the link...Research « SKY Academy: SKY at the Y
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> that's interesting. and i can't say it surprises me.
> 
> but i'd also ask what the economic range of the students at that school was. i'm pretty sure that the higher the poverty level, the lower the test scores since poverty and education are a difficult mix.
> 
> it may well be that the discipline from exercise carries over into other aress... which also doesn't surprise me.
> 
> when my son was in kindergarten, he had all 27 kids in his class crawling around on hands and knees pretending they were cats.
> 
> when we got to school to pick him up, the teacher was about ready to have a nervous breakdown because her entire class was meowing...  she said "please take home the kitty cat". lol..
> 
> we decided tai kwan do would be a good idea at that point.
> 
> and it was. doing marshal arts focused him, burned excess energy and disciplined him.
Click to expand...


Naperville is a fairly affluent community (here is a LINK to the community demographics) . But the research shows that even in poor districts, introducing regular, mandatory exercise into the curriculum improves student behavior, fitness, and test scores.  



> Urbana-Champaign, Illinois
> University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign psychophysiologist, Charles Hillman, measured students attention, working memory and processing speed and found that EEGs showed more activity in the brains of fit children. On cognitive tests, fit students had better attention and higher test scores than those less fit.
> 
> Kansas City, Missouri
> After expanding physical activity from one class a week to forty-five minutes every day, in only one year an inner-city elementary school in Kansas City reduced its discipline problems and incidences of violence as much as 250%.
> 
> Titusville, Pennsylvania
> This small, low income town installed fitness centers in their secondary schools and added ten minutes to their school day, but shaved 10% off academic class time. Since the program started in 2000, the districts standardized test scores rose from below the state average to 17% above it in reading and 18% above in math.  They are closing the achievement gap. And, among the 550 junior high students, there has not been one incident of fighting reported.


----------



## rdean

lizzie said:


> rdean said:
> 
> 
> 
> For the right wing, the problem with education is "education". Learning "stuff" is bad. You could possibly end up "over-educated".
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Not at all. The problem with education is that we are failing to educate our children. A significant number of them graduate high school incapable of using the English language well, or punctuate and use grammar for effective communication. Almost every college kid I know nowadays has to take "remedial" math before they can even take college algebra. It's not like college algebra is different from high school algebra- they just aren't learning it.
Click to expand...


I love it when people who teach their children that science is a faith, evolution a lie and climate change a conspiracy insist their children aren't being taught "right".

So what do they do?  They rewrite history books.  Teach mysticism as an alternative to science.  What's really hilarious are these right winger universities who teach "natural science" instead of "science".  
So what the fuck is "natural science"?  Oh, stuff like "bees pollinate flowers" and "germs are small".  We just have a different view of what is "education".  In my world, Bible Study isn't education, it's propaganda.


----------



## C_Clayton_Jones

> The problem with public education - summed up perfectly in a cartoon......


You clearly have no idea what youre talking about. 

Your naïve reactionaryism isnt the answer; and the decline in the quality of education began at the advent of Reagan-era political budget cuts and the implementation of other conservative policies.


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## Zander

C_Clayton_Jones said:


> The problem with public education - summed up perfectly in a cartoon......
> 
> 
> 
> You clearly have no idea what youre talking about.
> 
> Your naïve reactionaryism isnt the answer; and the decline in the quality of education began at the advent of Reagan-era political budget cuts and the implementation of other conservative policies.
Click to expand...


Is reactionaryism a word?  ( you misspelled naive too)


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## Unkotare

rdean said:


> For the right wing, the problem with education is "education".  Learning "stuff" is bad.  You could possibly end up "over-educated".




Seems like you dodged that bullet, shitforbrains.


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## rdean

Unkotare said:


> rdean said:
> 
> 
> 
> For the right wing, the problem with education is "education".  Learning "stuff" is bad.  You could possibly end up "over-educated".
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Seems like you dodged that bullet, shitforbrains.
Click to expand...


You can call me names, but you can't call me wrong.


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## Unkotare

jillian said:


> and then teachers get abused by people who don't think they should be paid for busing their butts.






What kind of bus do they use for that?


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## Unkotare

jillian said:


> and it was. doing marshal arts focused him, burned excess energy and disciplined him.





That's great. Maybe now he can teach you English.


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## Unkotare

rdean said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rdean said:
> 
> 
> 
> For the right wing, the problem with education is "education".  Learning "stuff" is bad.  You could possibly end up "over-educated".
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Seems like you dodged that bullet, shitforbrains.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You can call me names, but you can't call me wrong.
Click to expand...




I can do both, shitforbrains.


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## rdean

Unkotare said:


> rdean said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> Seems like you dodged that bullet, shitforbrains.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You can call me names, but you can't call me wrong.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I can do both, shitforbrains.
Click to expand...


If you can't PROVE it, you can't do it.

Republicans think if they just "say something", it makes it true.


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## Unkotare

Prove what? That your hysterical partisan mewling is just that?


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## rdean

Unkotare said:


> Prove what? That your hysterical partisan mewling is just that?



See?  You don't even know yourself.  

'nuff said.


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## Unkotare

rdean said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> Prove what? That your hysterical partisan mewling is just that?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> See?  You don't even know yourself.
> 
> 'nuff said.
Click to expand...



I do know. That's why I can say that you are nothing but a hysterical, self-indulgent little emo bitch that no one but other hysterical, self-indulgent little emo bitches ever takes seriously.


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## bripat9643

rdean said:


> You can call me names, but you can't call me wrong.



Wrong.


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## psikeyhackr

Zander said:


> rdean said:
> 
> 
> 
> For the right wing, the problem with education is "education".  Learning "stuff" is bad.  You could possibly end up "over-educated".
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You are a sad, pathetic, little man.
Click to expand...


ROFL

Most of the time I think the right and left wings are debating societies designed to maintain the appropriate levels of confusion.

psik


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## rdean

Unkotare said:


> rdean said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> Prove what? That your hysterical partisan mewling is just that?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> See?  You don't even know yourself.
> 
> 'nuff said.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> I do know. That's why I can say that you are nothing but a hysterical, self-indulgent little emo bitch that no one but other hysterical, self-indulgent little emo bitches ever takes seriously.
Click to expand...


Someone takes me seriously.  Or they wouldn't be screaming and calling names.


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## bigrebnc1775

rdean said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rdean said:
> 
> 
> 
> See?  You don't even know yourself.
> 
> 'nuff said.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I do know. That's why I can say that you are nothing but a hysterical, self-indulgent little emo bitch that no one but other hysterical, self-indulgent little emo bitches ever takes seriously.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Someone takes me seriously.  Or they wouldn't be screaming and calling names.
Click to expand...


No the reason they call you names is because you take yourself seriously


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## FurthurBB

Zander said:


> FurthurBB said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Zander said:
> 
> 
> 
> Naperville Illinos students regularly score in the top1%  in the world for math and science. Yet they spend no more on education than neighboring school districts. The only thing they do differently is they make all of the students exercise. Exercising increases the ability to learn....,time to bring back mandatory PE classes for all students.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In the world?  I would like to see these statistics because I do not believe it is in the world.  Also, my children's school is in the top 2% in the nation, and there is no increased exercise.  Though, they also do not spend a lot of money.  It is in an affluent neighborhood and only gets special things, like smart boards or fancy electronics, if the parents association pays for it.  They are the only school in my state to have only teachers with advanced degrees in middle school and high school, they have 11 students per teacher, and buy new books every year.  Seems anecdotal evidence is not going to work for this problem.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The 8th grade 1999 Naperville students finished 6th in the WORLD for math and number 1 for science in the TIMSS (trends in international math and science study). there were 230,000 students from around the world that participated. It is well documented that EXERCISE dramatically improves the ability to learn.
> 
> 
> EDIT- here is the link...Research « SKY Academy: SKY at the Y
Click to expand...


Thank you for the link, I am just not believing that exercise alone could be the answer when other school achieve just as much without any added exercise.   I think it is a good idea that students take gym everyday, and definitely would not hurt education.  It is just that most of the truly smart people are not very athletic, usually sit out at gym, don't participate in any extracurricular activities, and still get great grades as well as the fact that it is rare to find a smart sports star at any high school.


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## FurthurBB

lizzie said:


> jillian said:
> 
> 
> 
> the difference between a private school teacher and a public school teacher lies in the obligation to educate ALL kids. public schools don't get to pick and choose... private schools do. behavior problem? private school doesn't have to take them. uneducable? private school doesn't have to take them. public school? has to take every last one...
> 
> and then teachers get abused by people who don't think they should be paid for busing their butts.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What accounts for the fact that the public schools were doing a good job of educating us 50 years ago, but not now? It can't be strictly a matter of private schools picking and choosing. I'm not certain that just because someone is in private school they are automatically easier to educate. Just because Mom and Dad can afford private school doesn't mean that the child is any more teachable, and in fact may be an insufferable little jerk.
Click to expand...


If our children got the same education that was given in the 50s they would be further behind than they already are.  My children learn more now than when I went to school and graduation from their high school requires 9 more credit hours.  Although, it also requires 7 more credit hours than any other school, excluding one private school, in the area.


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## FurthurBB

lizzie said:


> jillian said:
> 
> 
> 
> i think you're missing the point in that private schools can turn down any kid who is a problem student... even if mommy and daddy have money.
> 
> and yes, if they're in private school, they're easier to educate because the private school doesn't have to take kids who ARE difficult.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> They can turn them down, but do they? I can't say I've ever heard of a child being refused a private school education.
Click to expand...


There are quite a few private schools in my area that will only take certain children and require an entrance exam.


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## lizzie

FurthurBB said:


> lizzie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> jillian said:
> 
> 
> 
> the difference between a private school teacher and a public school teacher lies in the obligation to educate ALL kids. public schools don't get to pick and choose... private schools do. behavior problem? private school doesn't have to take them. uneducable? private school doesn't have to take them. public school? has to take every last one...
> 
> and then teachers get abused by people who don't think they should be paid for busing their butts.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What accounts for the fact that the public schools were doing a good job of educating us 50 years ago, but not now? It can't be strictly a matter of private schools picking and choosing. I'm not certain that just because someone is in private school they are automatically easier to educate. Just because Mom and Dad can afford private school doesn't mean that the child is any more teachable, and in fact may be an insufferable little jerk.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> If our children got the same education that was given in the 50s they would be further behind than they already are. My children learn more now than when I went to school and graduation from their high school requires 9 more credit hours. Although, it also requires 7 more credit hours than any other school, excluding one private school, in the area.
Click to expand...

 
If that's the case, then why can't so many of our youth these days spell, use grammar, and do basic math without a calculator or computer?  I assure you I am far from behind today's students, and usually out ahead.


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## Unkotare

FurthurBB said:


> It is just that most of the truly smart people are not very athletic, usually sit out at gym, don't participate in any extracurricular activities, and still get great grades as well as the fact that it is rare to find a smart sports star at any high school.




That would be a great point IF IT WEREN'T COMPLETE B.S.


You sound like not only an idiot, but a 98lbs weakling with a terrible inferiority complex as well.


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## EdwardBaiamonte

Zander said:


> The problem with public education - summed up perfectly in a cartoon.



The problem with public education is that it is public or liberal. The liberals have made our kids the dumbest in the civilized world and yet the liberals still defend their status quo. It ought to be illegal.

The Republican solution is get rid of the rigid bureaucratic liberal unions and use vouchers to give everyone capitalist like incentives to do better day in and day out.


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## PoliticalChic

FurthurBB said:


> lizzie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> jillian said:
> 
> 
> 
> the difference between a private school teacher and a public school teacher lies in the obligation to educate ALL kids. public schools don't get to pick and choose... private schools do. behavior problem? private school doesn't have to take them. uneducable? private school doesn't have to take them. public school? has to take every last one...
> 
> and then teachers get abused by people who don't think they should be paid for busing their butts.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What accounts for the fact that the public schools were doing a good job of educating us 50 years ago, but not now? It can't be strictly a matter of private schools picking and choosing. I'm not certain that just because someone is in private school they are automatically easier to educate. Just because Mom and Dad can afford private school doesn't mean that the child is any more teachable, and in fact may be an insufferable little jerk.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> If our children got the same education that was given in the 50s they would be further behind than they already are.  My children learn more now than when I went to school and graduation from their high school requires 9 more credit hours.  Although, it also requires 7 more credit hours than any other school, excluding one private school, in the area.
Click to expand...


"My children learn more now than when I went to school..."

Judging by your post, one need only live under a rock on a desert isle and that would be true.


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## Samson

EdwardBaiamonte said:


> Zander said:
> 
> 
> 
> The problem with public education - summed up perfectly in a cartoon.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The problem with public education is that it is public . .....
Click to expand...


This post is an excellent example of "The Problem with Education."


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## EdwardBaiamonte

Samson said:


> EdwardBaiamonte said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Zander said:
> 
> 
> 
> The problem with public education - summed up perfectly in a cartoon.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The problem with public education is that it is public . .....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> This post is an excellent example of "The Problem with Education."
Click to expand...



I suppose you're feeling bad that you didn't realize that liberalism has made our kids the dumbest in the civilized world?


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## Samson

EdwardBaiamonte said:


> Samson said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> EdwardBaiamonte said:
> 
> 
> 
> The problem with public education is that it is public . .....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This post is an excellent example of "The Problem with Education."
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> I suppose you're feeling bad that you didn't realize that liberalism has made our kids the dumbest in the civilized world?
Click to expand...


Um, yeah.....

Or, I'm pointing out that your post was moronic.

It does make me feel a twinge of guilt to burst your idiotic partisan bubble: Niether political party, nor conservatives, nor liberals, control "the public school system in the USA."


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## EdwardBaiamonte

Samson said:


> Niether political party, nor conservatives, nor liberals, control "the public school system in the USA."



  If its a public or liberal government school system you can be certain that conservatives oppose it. The liberal unions are perhaps the biggest problem with the schools. They harm the product in schools exactly the way they do in manufacturing. The unions should be made illegal and a voucher system should be introduced to provide capitalist like incentives.

It is disgusting that liberals support the status quo when it has made our kids the least educated in the civilized world. It is perfect testimony to what liberals really are.


----------



## Care4all

EdwardBaiamonte said:


> Samson said:
> 
> 
> 
> Niether political party, nor conservatives, nor liberals, control "the public school system in the USA."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If its a public or liberal government school system you can be certain that conservatives oppose it. The liberal unions are perhaps the biggest problem with the schools. They harm the product in schools exactly the way they do in manufacturing. The unions should be made illegal and a voucher system should be introduced to provide capitalist like incentives.
> 
> It is disgusting that liberals support the status quo when it has made our kids the least educated in the civilized world. It is perfect testimony to what liberals really are.
Click to expand...

what a bunch of bunk!  sheesh


----------



## FurthurBB

lizzie said:


> FurthurBB said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> lizzie said:
> 
> 
> 
> What accounts for the fact that the public schools were doing a good job of educating us 50 years ago, but not now? It can't be strictly a matter of private schools picking and choosing. I'm not certain that just because someone is in private school they are automatically easier to educate. Just because Mom and Dad can afford private school doesn't mean that the child is any more teachable, and in fact may be an insufferable little jerk.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If our children got the same education that was given in the 50s they would be further behind than they already are. My children learn more now than when I went to school and graduation from their high school requires 9 more credit hours. Although, it also requires 7 more credit hours than any other school, excluding one private school, in the area.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> If that's the case, then why can't so many of our youth these days spell, use grammar, and do basic math without a calculator or computer?  I assure you I am far from behind today's students, and usually out ahead.
Click to expand...


Well, some people yearn for the good old days so bad, they see only what they want to see.  How could you have gotten the education they are getting when did not even know 1/2 of the things we know today.   All of my children can spell, and read, and use punctuation, they can all do basic math without a calculator or a computer and I have actually never met a child that couldn't do these things.  There is a school in our area that is all about sports and have gotten in trouble numerous times for passing their sports stars that really only had 8th grade educations because they were never made to do anything in high school.  Even all those kids can read, spell, do basic math without electrons, their grammar is a little lacking ... so maybe it is just not a problem here or only a local problem.


----------



## FurthurBB

PoliticalChic said:


> FurthurBB said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> lizzie said:
> 
> 
> 
> What accounts for the fact that the public schools were doing a good job of educating us 50 years ago, but not now? It can't be strictly a matter of private schools picking and choosing. I'm not certain that just because someone is in private school they are automatically easier to educate. Just because Mom and Dad can afford private school doesn't mean that the child is any more teachable, and in fact may be an insufferable little jerk.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If our children got the same education that was given in the 50s they would be further behind than they already are.  My children learn more now than when I went to school and graduation from their high school requires 9 more credit hours.  Although, it also requires 7 more credit hours than any other school, excluding one private school, in the area.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> "My children learn more now than when I went to school..."
> 
> Judging by your post, one need only live under a rock on a desert isle and that would be true.
Click to expand...


Thanks, I guess you do not think private schools are better than public, and I know you hate advanced degrees, even if obtained from private religious schools, so I will not ask about that.


----------



## Samson

Care4all said:


> EdwardBaiamonte said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Samson said:
> 
> 
> 
> Niether political party, nor conservatives, nor liberals, control "the public school system in the USA."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If its a public or liberal government school system you can be certain that conservatives oppose it. The liberal unions are perhaps the biggest problem with the schools. They harm the product in schools exactly the way they do in manufacturing. The unions should be made illegal and a voucher system should be introduced to provide capitalist like incentives.
> 
> It is disgusting that liberals support the status quo when it has made our kids the least educated in the civilized world. It is perfect testimony to what liberals really are.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> what a bunch of bunk!  sheesh
Click to expand...


I thought I said that.

It is clear that Eddy isn't capable of much more than regurgitating anti-liberal dogma.

If he considered for a moment that, 1. There is no US school system, and, 2. Other countries in the "civilized world" are much more "liberal" than the USA, his head would probably explode.


----------



## chanel

Samson said:


> chanel said:
> 
> 
> 
> No one has any balls anymore.  If I were superintendent of that school, I would have told those parents and lawyers to get the fuck out of my office and get in line to sue us.  But lawsuits cost money, so bending over seems to be the only way.
> 
> What a wonderful message to send to the other students in that school, eh?  Football is more important than nearly beating a kid to death.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You are mistaking the cause, but you certainly have the effect "down pat."
> 
> In actuality, it is practically impossible to sue any public entity, but school districts are a particularly tough nut. I'm not satying it's impossible, but unless a school bus stops on a train-track, you're unlikely to see any law suite attracing the attention of the vultures in silk ties.
> 
> HOWEVER, something almost as bad as losing money is Scandle and Publicity. Superintendents and Principals keep their jobs by not rocking the boat, which often require "bending over."
Click to expand...


I respectively disagree.  



> Tort reform isn't an issue for just New Jersey's businesses and physicians. Budgeting for extensive litigation throughout New Jersey's school districts is having an impact. Just as in the private sector, lawsuit abuse carries consequences. But when it impacts schools, the impact is felt by students and taxpayers, rather than consumers.
> 
> The average New Jersey school district allocates approximately $26,000 each school year for litigation expenses. In seven districts, this figure was higher than $500,000 for the 2009-2010 school year. And as one Morris County school district learned, sometimes all it takes is one bad lawyer to affect their budget priorities for years to come.



Legal costs are an issue for N.J. school budgets | Commentary | NewJerseyNewsroom.com -- Your State. Your News.

In the article I posted, the board reversed its position and benched the football players under "HIB". Now their lawyers are really pissed and are considering taking on the new bullying law.  I knew that law would be challenged, but I anticipated that it would be over a free speech issue resulting in a school suspension.  

This case will be over the "right" to beat someone unconscious (off school grounds) and play football.


----------



## kowalskil

bodecea said:


> Jackson said:
> 
> 
> 
> Some of those same parents who blame the teacher may not be checking to see that homework is done, actively support the school, so the child knows his boundaries and doesn't read with their children when they are young.
> 
> Maybe they are too busy on the computer... did you check to see your kid's homework tonight?  lol
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I know around here, some of the schools, 70-80% of the parents are illiterate.
Click to expand...


The percentage will decrease, if education is supported, and if it is as good as it can be.
.


----------

