# Words are cheap, Jane Fonda



## wayne

Someone should tell Jane Fonda that words are cheap. If she wants not to be recorded in US History as a traitor all she has to do is get in her time machine and go back to 1960s and 70s and not make propaganda for the enemy.

__________________________________________________________________________________
http://news.yahoo.com/jane-fonda-jabs-q ... 47808.html

..LOS ANGELES (Reuters) - A new controversy over Oscar winner Jane Fonda's Vietnam War activism caused the actress to come out swinging against home shopping TV network QVC on Saturday, over what she described as its caving in to "extremist" pressure to cancel her appearance.

In a blog posting on showbusiness website TheWrap.com, Fonda wrote that she was scheduled to appear on QVC on Saturday to introduce her book "Prime Time" about aging and life cycles.

But the network, Fonda wrote, reported receiving a flood of angry calls regarding her anti-war activism of the 1960s and 1970s, and it decided to cancel Fonda's appearance.

Four decades ago, the American actress angered Vietnam War supporters who gave her the nickname "Hanoi Jane" for her 1972 visit to the capital of North Vietnam at the height of the conflict. At the time, she posed for photos showing her sitting atop a Viet Cong anti-aircraft gun, and she remains an object of derision by some U.S. veterans and others.

Fonda, 73, has in the past expressed regret about those images, and in her post at The Wrap she took aim at QVC and her critics.

"I am, to say the least, deeply disappointed that QVC caved to this kind of insane pressure by some well funded and organized political extremist groups," Fonda wrote.

QVC acknowledged Fonda's appearance was canceled, but said it was because of a "programing change."

"It's not unusual to have a schedule change with our shows and guests with little or no notice," QVC spokesman Paul Capelli said in a statement.

"I can't speak to Ms. Fonda's comments, other than to confirm that a change in scheduling resulted in her not appearing today."

In 2005, Fonda was spat upon at a book signing in Kansas City, Missouri, by a man who said he was angered by her Vietnam War-era actions.

"Bottom line, this has gone on far too long, this spreading of lies about me!" Fonda wrote at TheWrap.com. "... I love my country. I have never done anything to hurt my country or the men and women who have fought and continue to fight for us."

The daughter of late screen legend Henry Fonda, the actress most recently starred in 2007 film "Georgia Rule." She won Oscars for roles in the films "Coming Home" (1978) and "Klute" (1971).

QVC is a unit of Liberty Media Corp.

(Reporting by Alex Dobuzinskis: Editing by Bob Tourtellotte)


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## Patrick2

Who could ever forget that treasonous slut?  The koolaid kadets probably never heard of her.


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## uscitizen

Get a life!  WTF care about what jane Fonda says?


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## MarcATL

uscitizen said:


> Get a life!  WTF care about what jane Fonda says?



Why...rabid, RW, idiot savant nutjobs of course.


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## uscitizen

The only way I know she is still alive is thru rightwingnutz posts about something she has said.


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## Patrick2

uscitizen said:


> Get a life!  WTF care about what jane Fonda says?



You don't care - why are you even posting in the thread?


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## uscitizen

Cause I feel it my responsibility to my fellow Americans to point out the most stupid ones.


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## Grace

That bitch can rot in hell and I hope today's youth NEVER forget Hanoi Jane. Fuck her and her whining. Good for QVC!


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## Patrick2

uscitizen said:


> Cause I feel it my responsibility to my fellow Americans to point out the most stupid ones.



Why don't you get a life, instead?


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## uscitizen

Patrick2 said:


> uscitizen said:
> 
> 
> 
> Cause I feel it my responsibility to my fellow Americans to point out the most stupid ones.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Why don't you get a life, instead?
Click to expand...


I asked you that first.


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## MarcATL

And the Right are the first to talk about how OTHERS have an obsessive capacity for hate.

The irony!


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## JakeStarkey

Grace said:


> That bitch can rot in hell and I hope today's youth NEVER forget Hanoi Jane. Fuck her and her whining. Good for QVC!



Get a life, Grace.  Sheesh.  I am a veteran, a lifetime member of the DAV.  If I can let it go, I really don't want to hear it from you.


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## Patrick2

MarcATL said:


> And the Right are the first to talk about how OTHERS have an obsessive capacity for hate.
> 
> The irony!



Yaaa - imagine hating a person who got away with treason.  A person who was looking through NVA AA gunsights at the same time US POWS were being tortured in the Hanoi Hilton - the nerve!


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## hortysir

The note


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## wayne

MarcATL said:


> And the Right are the first to talk about how OTHERS have an obsessive capacity for hate.
> 
> The irony!



It is not hate it is justice. Does she not deserve to be remembered as a traitor like Benedict Arnold or was he also a hero? Get over it you lost the Cold War even though you did everything you could to aid the communist war afford. But at least you can bask in the memories of millions of people being worked to death by their communist masters. It give you warm feeling dont it? When Jane Fonda dies there is a place in hell along side her hero Stalin, what about you?


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## Grace

JakeStarkey said:


> Grace said:
> 
> 
> 
> That bitch can rot in hell and I hope today's youth NEVER forget Hanoi Jane. Fuck her and her whining. Good for QVC!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Get a life, Grace.  Sheesh.  I am a veteran, a lifetime member of the DAV.  If I can let it go, I really don't want to hear it from you.
Click to expand...


Well la de da for you.
First, thank you for coming home safe.
Second, I don't want to let it go. what she did will never be forgotten and I will always remember it and I will always hate her fucking guts for it.
Third, I don't care whether you want to hear it from me. You can let it go? Good for you. I'm not you. And I will say what the fuck I want to say. don't like it? Don't read it.


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## tinydancer

Hey Jake. A hey and hello. I had two best friends serving in nam at the time when that douche bag went over and cheered the north on. Empowered the north. fucking barbarella. her only claim to fame is she was the daughter of an excellent actor. 

Fuck you. And I still hope that monster who calls herself a patriot fucking dies the most horrible death for the shit she did.

You want to forgive her? By all means, that is what you can do. But for me, I hope she rots in hell.


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## Mr_Rockhead

wayne said:


> ..."Bottom line, this has gone on far too long, this spreading of lies about me!" Fonda wrote at TheWrap.com. "... I love my country. I have never done anything to hurt my country or the men and women who have fought and continue to fight for us."...



Really?



_"November 22, 1970 -- During a fund-raising tour for GI deserters,
Vietnam Veterans Against the War and the Black Panthers, Jane Fonda
is quoted in the Detroit Free Press as telling a University of
Michigan audience, "I would think that if you understood what
communism was, you would hope, you would pray on your knees that we
would someday become communist,"



"February 16, 1971 -- Jane Fonda and Donald Sutherland form "FTA"
(F*** The Army), an anti-war, anti-American road show that tours near
Army bases *in order to undermine troop morale*. Skits and songs
portray American defeats, soldiers refusing to fight, and the murder
of officers by their troops. FTA cast members mingle with soldiers
after the shows, *encouraging them to desert or to sabotage the Army*."

*Personal note: I have seen the &#8220;FTA&#8221; movie and this is true.*



"March 14 - 18, 1971 -- Jane Fonda, Mark Lane, and VVAW
representative Michael Hunter fly to Europe for a five-day tour. In
Paris, Fonda meets privately with Madame Binh of the PRG, then the
three activists fly to London, where *Fonda alleges* American
atrocities that include "applying electrodes to prisoners' genitals,
mass rapes, slicing off of body parts, scalping, skinning alive, and
leaving 'heat tablets' around which burned the insides of children
who ate them.'""



July 8 - 22, 1972 -- Jane Fonda visits Hanoi, where she makes
numerous radio broadcasts to American and South Vietnamese military
personnel *encouraging mutiny and desertion*, while repeatedly claiming
that the United States is committing war crimes in Vietnam. Fonda
also visits American prisoners, reporting on the air that they are
being "well cared for" and that they wished to convey their "sense of
disgust of the war and their shame for what they have been asked to
do." Upon leaving North Vietnam, Fonda accepts from her hosts a ring
made from the wreckage of a downed American plane.



April, 1973 -- Jane Fonda calls the freed American
prisoners "hypocrites and pawns," insisting that, "Tortured men do
not march smartly off planes, salute the flag, and kiss their wives.
They are liars. I also want to say that these men are not heroes."_


<sigh>


Well, at least, back then, Jane Fonda had nice body to kinda counter-balance her filthy, anti-American mouth.    But now she is nothing but a dried-up old blister sitting around and waiting to die who simply can't keep that mouth shut.

Yep, you gotta love Jane.  And, nope, we will never forget her.  Never.  Ever.  Nope.


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## Grace

Here ya go Jake.:

http://www.usmessageboard.com/general/162896-hanoi-jane.html

Read it and weep, bubba. I suggest you find a board that is a Hanoi Jane Lovefest. Don't wanna hear it from me some more? Tough shit.


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## MeBelle

hortysir said:


> The note



And that's all that needs to be said.


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## Douger

Vietnam.Lost a brother and a cousin there. The biggest clusterfuck the empire started(thus far....we'll see how the current movie_s play's out) and , as usual, didn't finish the job.There is no profit in winning a war. The longer it goes on the more profit your masters make.Your money, of course.
Jane is an idiot.Her father was an idiot.Hollywierd is the breeding ground of flakes who are worshiped by fools.
Full of millionaires, proving murkas ignorance.


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## Caroljo

JakeStarkey said:


> Grace said:
> 
> 
> 
> That bitch can rot in hell and I hope today's youth NEVER forget Hanoi Jane. Fuck her and her whining. Good for QVC!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Get a life, Grace.  Sheesh.  I am a veteran, a lifetime member of the DAV.  If I can let it go, I really don't want to hear it from you.
Click to expand...


YOU may be able to let it go and ignore it...MANY other Viet Name vets cannot and will not because she is a traitor!  I can't believe you can just forget what she did....


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## California Girl

JakeStarkey said:


> Grace said:
> 
> 
> 
> That bitch can rot in hell and I hope today's youth NEVER forget Hanoi Jane. Fuck her and her whining. Good for QVC!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Get a life, Grace.  Sheesh.  I am a veteran, a lifetime member of the DAV.  If I can let it go, I really don't want to hear it from you.
Click to expand...


Then don't listen. But Grace is at liberty to say whatever she wants. That is why you served, isn't it? To defend our freedoms? 

Idiot.


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## midcan5

First amendment 'Freedom' got lost somewhere in Vietnam, anyone looking for it? I hear about it all the time but rarely see it in action.


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## José

I shake my head in disbelief when I read threads like this.

The real question people should be asking is whether the vietnamese people will someday forgive France and America for turning their country into a pile of rubble and killing 1 million vietnamese and here we have a bunch of mentally retarded super patriotic american clowns crucifying a woman that at least tried to do something to stop the massacre.

Their sick notion of nationalism and national loyalty is more important than the lives of 1 million vietnamese or the moral depravation of destroying a country that never did anything to America.

I have to pinch myself to believe this bunch of morally depraved individuals participating in this discussion are for real. tsk, tsk, tsk...

You all make me


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## PoliticalChic

Jane Fonda writes that a planned Saturday appearance on QVC was canceled by the shopping network after viewers complained, citing Fonda's political statements during the Vietnam War. Fonda was scheduled to promote her aging-with-spirit book "Prime Time: Making the Most of Your Life," due out Aug. 9.

On her website, Fonda writes:

The network said they got a lot of calls yesterday criticizing me for my opposition to the Vietnam War and threatening to boycott the show if I was allowed to appear. I am, to say the least, deeply disappointed that QVC caved to this kind of insane pressure by some well funded and organized political extremist groups...Most people dont buy into the far right lies.

Jane Fonda's QVC appearance pulled over Vietnam, she says - latimes.com


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## Sunni Man

First of all let me qualify by saying that I am a Vietnam vet.

 Secondly, history has proven Jane Fonda to be correct in her assessment of the United States involvement of the war.

 Last, we need more patriotic people like her to stand up and fight against government injustice and abuse.


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## konradv

wayne said:


> Someone should tell Jane Fonda that words are cheap. If she wants not to be recorded in US History as a traitor all she has to do is get in her time machine and go back to 1960s and 70s and not make propaganda for the enemy.
> 
> __________________________________________________________________________________
> http://news.yahoo.com/jane-fonda-jabs-q ... 47808.html
> 
> ..LOS ANGELES (Reuters) - A new controversy over Oscar winner Jane Fonda's Vietnam War activism caused the actress to come out swinging against home shopping TV network QVC on Saturday, over what she described as its caving in to "extremist" pressure to cancel her appearance.
> 
> In a blog posting on showbusiness website TheWrap.com, Fonda wrote that she was scheduled to appear on QVC on Saturday to introduce her book "Prime Time" about aging and life cycles.
> 
> But the network, Fonda wrote, reported receiving a flood of angry calls regarding her anti-war activism of the 1960s and 1970s, and it decided to cancel Fonda's appearance.
> 
> Four decades ago, the American actress angered Vietnam War supporters who gave her the nickname "Hanoi Jane" for her 1972 visit to the capital of North Vietnam at the height of the conflict. At the time, she posed for photos showing her sitting atop a Viet Cong anti-aircraft gun, and she remains an object of derision by some U.S. veterans and others.
> 
> Fonda, 73, has in the past expressed regret about those images, and in her post at The Wrap she took aim at QVC and her critics.
> 
> "I am, to say the least, deeply disappointed that QVC caved to this kind of insane pressure by some well funded and organized political extremist groups," Fonda wrote.
> 
> QVC acknowledged Fonda's appearance was canceled, but said it was because of a "programing change."
> 
> "It's not unusual to have a schedule change with our shows and guests with little or no notice," QVC spokesman Paul Capelli said in a statement.
> 
> "I can't speak to Ms. Fonda's comments, other than to confirm that a change in scheduling resulted in her not appearing today."
> 
> In 2005, Fonda was spat upon at a book signing in Kansas City, Missouri, by a man who said he was angered by her Vietnam War-era actions.
> 
> "Bottom line, this has gone on far too long, this spreading of lies about me!" Fonda wrote at TheWrap.com. "... I love my country. I have never done anything to hurt my country or the men and women who have fought and continue to fight for us."
> 
> The daughter of late screen legend Henry Fonda, the actress most recently starred in 2007 film "Georgia Rule." She won Oscars for roles in the films "Coming Home" (1978) and "Klute" (1971).
> 
> QVC is a unit of Liberty Media Corp.
> 
> (Reporting by Alex Dobuzinskis: Editing by Bob Tourtellotte)



If words are cheap, why is a big deal being made over something she said 40 years ago?  I guess the title of the OP is a lie.


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## Sallow

Vietnam was a war crime..and a Genocide.

What Fonda did should have made her a hero.

I don't know how any American can get behind the slaughter that was Vietnam. Millions of innocent people were killed as a result of America's invasion. Fonda's only problem was that she didn't see that the troops were as trapped into this bullshit as the Vietnamese.


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## Moonglow

wayne said:


> MarcATL said:
> 
> 
> 
> And the Right are the first to talk about how OTHERS have an obsessive capacity for hate.
> 
> The irony!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It is not hate it is justice. Does she not deserve to be remembered as a traitor like Benedict Arnold or was he also a hero? Get over it you lost the Cold War even though you did everything you could to aid the communist war afford. But at least you can bask in the memories of millions of people being worked to death by their communist masters. It give you warm feeling dont it? When Jane Fonda dies there is a place in hell along side her hero Stalin, what about you?
Click to expand...


Don't forget your going to be at the same dinner table with Stalin also.


----------



## uscitizen

JakeStarkey said:


> Grace said:
> 
> 
> 
> That bitch can rot in hell and I hope today's youth NEVER forget Hanoi Jane. Fuck her and her whining. Good for QVC!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Get a life, Grace.  Sheesh.  I am a veteran, a lifetime member of the DAV.  If I can let it go, I really don't want to hear it from you.
Click to expand...


Yep same from here a Nam combat vet.


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## Moonglow

the war was a nasty bit o fun.


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## uscitizen

It was no fun at all.


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## JakeStarkey

Caroljo said:


> JakeStarkey said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Grace said:
> 
> 
> 
> That bitch can rot in hell and I hope today's youth NEVER forget Hanoi Jane. Fuck her and her whining. Good for QVC!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Get a life, Grace.  Sheesh.  I am a veteran, a lifetime member of the DAV.  If I can let it go, I really don't want to hear it from you.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> YOU may be able to let it go and ignore it...MANY other Viet Name vets cannot and will not because she is a traitor!  I can't believe you can just forget what she did....
Click to expand...


You are entitled to your wrongheaded opinion, of course, but  having a spiteful soul is a lousy way to spend your time.


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## JakeStarkey

Grace said:


> Here ya go Jake.:
> 
> http://www.usmessageboard.com/general/162896-hanoi-jane.html
> 
> Read it and weep, bubba. I suggest you find a board that is a Hanoi Jane Lovefest. Don't wanna hear it from me some more? Tough shit.



You can have your own wrongheaded opinion, of course, but your emotional reaction does you no credit as an American.


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## JakeStarkey

tinydancer said:


> Hey Jake. A hey and hello. I had two best friends serving in nam at the time when that douche bag went over and cheered the north on. Empowered the north. fucking barbarella. her only claim to fame is she was the daughter of an excellent actor.
> 
> Fuck you. And I still hope that monster who calls herself a patriot fucking dies the most horrible death for the shit she did.
> 
> You want to forgive her? By all means, that is what you can do. But for me, I hope she rots in hell.



Such a tiny damaged soul you have, tinydancer.  Five guys from high school died there.  At least another ten were wounded or injured.  None of us hate Jane Fonda.  You folks who weren't there have no moral legitimacy to hate.  Leave it to the vets from then to make the choice.


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## Jack Fate

JakeStarkey said:


> tinydancer said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hey Jake. A hey and hello. I had two best friends serving in nam at the time when that douche bag went over and cheered the north on. Empowered the north. fucking barbarella. her only claim to fame is she was the daughter of an excellent actor.
> 
> Fuck you. And I still hope that monster who calls herself a patriot fucking dies the most horrible death for the shit she did.
> 
> You want to forgive her? By all means, that is what you can do. But for me, I hope she rots in hell.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Such a tiny damaged soul you have, tinydancer.  Five guys from high school died there.  At least another ten were wounded or injured.  None of us hate Jane Fonda.  You folks who weren't there have no moral legitimacy to hate.  Leave it to the vets from then to make the choice.
Click to expand...


And who are you to tell us what is "moral"?  Everyone in the USA is free to express their opinion about anyone and anything.


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## José

> Originally posted by *Sunni Man*
> First of all let me qualify by saying that I am a Vietnam vet.
> 
> Secondly, history has proven Jane Fonda to be correct in her assessment of the United States involvement of the war.
> 
> Last, we need more patriotic people like her to stand up and fight against government injustice and abuse.





> Originally posted by *konradv*
> If words are cheap, why is a big deal being made over something she said 40 years ago? I guess the title of the OP is a lie.





> Originally posted by *Sallow*
> Vietnam was a war crime..and a Genocide.
> 
> What Fonda did should have made her a hero.
> 
> I don't know how any American can get behind the slaughter that was Vietnam. Millions of innocent people were killed as a result of America's invasion. Fonda's only problem was that she didn't see that the troops were as trapped into this bullshit as the Vietnamese.



Everybody knows the story of the old grandpa thrown into a madhouse by their greedy relatives. Well... Sallow, Sunni, konrad offer definitive proof that I'm not the only sane people in a madhouse. 

But this debate is a waste of time... Extreme, pathological nationalism has the effect of clouding people's judgement, it prevents people from thinking clearly, from distinguishing the forest from the trees. 

In the eyes of the pathologically nationalist individual a trip to Vietnam to stop the wholesale slaughter of a third world people and to show support for a genuine, grassroots nationalist movement is more outrageous than the total clusterfuck created by the leaders of their own nation that motivated the trip in the first place.

If wayne, CarolJo, Grace, Patrick2 etc... had been born in ancient Rome they'd be portraying Jesus as a monster for whipping the money changers while turning a blind eye to each and every atrocity commited by the Roman Empire.

They criticize Nazi Germany's national anthem ("Deutchland uber alles" = "Germany above everything") but can't help goose-stepping to the sound of the US national anthem.


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## PoliticalChic

uscitizen said:


> Cause I feel it my responsibility to my fellow Americans to point out the most stupid ones.



Well, let's see if I can add to your exiguous store of knowledge.

The traitor not only spit in the face of American soldiers, but refused to take any responsiblity for the millions of Asians killed by the communists that she supported....
....refused to do as little as sign Joan Baez's open letter:

1. In 1979, Humanitas, the organization of *anti-war activist Joan Baez, purchased a newspaper ad that ran in five large circulation dailies, called An Open Letter to the Socialist Republic of Vietnam,* which ran in part:  Thousands of innocent Vietnamese, many of whose only crimes are those of conscience, are being arrested, detained and tortured in prison and re-education camps The jails are overflowing with thousands upon thousands of detainees People disappear and never return People are used as human mine detectors, clearing live mine fields with their hands and feet.  For many, life is hell and death is prayed for.   With tragic irony, the cruelty, violence and oppression practiced by foreign powers in your country for more than a century continue today under the present regime.

It was an abiding commitment to *fundamental principles of human dignity, freedom and self-determination that motivated so many Americans to oppose the government of South Vietnam and our country's participation in the war. It is that same commitment that compels us to speak out against your brutal disregard of human rights. *As in the 60s, we raise our voices now so that your people may live.                                           And a Voice to Sing With -- A Memoir, by Joan Baez


2. Baez mailed the letter to 350 anti-war activists. Among those who* refused to sign was Jane Fonda. Your name would mean much more than any other, she told Fonda,* in a long letter. Fonda wrote that the add would lend credence to those who believe that Communism is worse than death Washington Post, Lynn Darling, Joan Baez at 38, June 29, 1979


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## Jack Fate

José;3882686 said:
			
		

> Originally posted by *Sunni Man*
> First of all let me qualify by saying that I am a Vietnam vet.
> 
> Secondly, history has proven Jane Fonda to be correct in her assessment of the United States involvement of the war.
> 
> Last, we need more patriotic people like her to stand up and fight against government injustice and abuse.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Originally posted by *konradv*
> If words are cheap, why is a big deal being made over something she said 40 years ago? I guess the title of the OP is a lie.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Originally posted by *Sallow*
> Vietnam was a war crime..and a Genocide.
> 
> What Fonda did should have made her a hero.
> 
> I don't know how any American can get behind the slaughter that was Vietnam. Millions of innocent people were killed as a result of America's invasion. Fonda's only problem was that she didn't see that the troops were as trapped into this bullshit as the Vietnamese.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Everybody knows the story of the old grandpa thrown into a madhouse by their greedy relatives. Well... Sallow, Sunni, konrad offer definitive proof that I'm not the only sane people in a madhouse.
> 
> But this debate is a waste of time... Extreme, pathological nationalism has the effect of clouding people's judgement, it prevents people from thinking clearly, from distinguishing the forest from the trees.
> 
> In the eyes of the pathologically nationalist individual a trip to Vietnam to stop the wholesale slaughter of a third world people and to show support for a genuine, grassroots nationalist movement is more outrageous than the total clusterfuck created by the leaders of their own nation that motivated the trip in the first place.
> 
> If wayne, CarolJo, Grace, Patrick2 etc... had been born in ancient Rome they'd be portraying Jesus as a monster for whipping the money changers while turning a blind eye to each and every atrocity commited by the Roman Empire.
> 
> They criticize Nazi Germany's national anthem ("Deutchland uber alles" = "Germany above everything") but can't help goose-stepping to the sound of the US national anthem.
Click to expand...


She showed support for our enemy, doesn't matter your opinion of who was right or wrong.  We all had family over there fighting, being mutilated, and dying.   You can have your opinion about a war without helping the enemy with his propaganda.  She went too far.  Some of you just don't get it.


----------



## Sallow

PoliticalChic said:


> uscitizen said:
> 
> 
> 
> Cause I feel it my responsibility to my fellow Americans to point out the most stupid ones.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well, let's see if I can add to your exiguous store of knowledge.
> 
> The traitor not only spit in the face of American soldiers, but refused to take any responsiblity for the *millions of Asians killed by the communists that she supported....*....refused to do as little as sign Joan Baez's open letter:
> 
> 1. In 1979, Humanitas, the organization of *anti-war activist Joan Baez, purchased a newspaper ad that ran in five large circulation dailies, called An Open Letter to the Socialist Republic of Vietnam,* which ran in part:  Thousands of innocent Vietnamese, many of whose only crimes are those of conscience, are being arrested, detained and tortured in prison and re-education camps The jails are overflowing with thousands upon thousands of detainees People disappear and never return People are used as human mine detectors, clearing live mine fields with their hands and feet.  For many, life is hell and death is prayed for.   With tragic irony, the cruelty, violence and oppression practiced by foreign powers in your country for more than a century continue today under the present regime.
> 
> It was an abiding commitment to *fundamental principles of human dignity, freedom and self-determination that motivated so many Americans to oppose the government of South Vietnam and our country's participation in the war. It is that same commitment that compels us to speak out against your brutal disregard of human rights. *As in the 60s, we raise our voices now so that your people may live.                                           And a Voice to Sing With -- A Memoir, by Joan Baez
> 
> 
> 2. Baez mailed the letter to 350 anti-war activists. Among those who* refused to sign was Jane Fonda. Your name would mean much more than any other, she told Fonda,* in a long letter. Fonda wrote that the add would lend credence to those who believe that Communism is worse than death Washington Post, Lynn Darling, Joan Baez at 38, June 29, 1979
Click to expand...


Millions of people from Vietnam, Cambodia and Laos were killed by the American invasion and illegal secret bombings.

You really should get your history straight.


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## R.D.

uscitizen said:


> Get a life!  WTF care about what jane Fonda says?



People who shop QVC.

And of course  Hanoi Jane


----------



## JakeStarkey

Jack Fate said:


> JakeStarkey said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> tinydancer said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hey Jake. A hey and hello. I had two best friends serving in nam at the time when that douche bag went over and cheered the north on. Empowered the north. fucking barbarella. her only claim to fame is she was the daughter of an excellent actor.
> 
> Fuck you. And I still hope that monster who calls herself a patriot fucking dies the most horrible death for the shit she did.
> 
> You want to forgive her? By all means, that is what you can do. But for me, I hope she rots in hell.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Such a tiny damaged soul you have, tinydancer.  Five guys from high school died there.  At least another ten were wounded or injured.  None of us hate Jane Fonda.  You folks who weren't there have no moral legitimacy to hate.  Leave it to the vets from then to make the choice.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> And who are you to tell us what is "moral"?  Everyone in the USA is free to express their opinion about anyone and anything.
Click to expand...


Fascist Jack Fate would tell us what is _moral_?  Fascist Jack Fate?  I said above people have a right to their opinions.  To suggest I don't is another of your lies.  Fascist Jack Fate, many of your opinions are immoral, and I have the right in a free country I don't want fascists like you setting any kind of standard.


----------



## José

> Originally posted by *Political Chic*
> take any responsiblity for the millions of Asians killed by the communists that she supported....



Liar...

Show us any evidence that the vietnamese national liberation movement "killed millions of asians".

They were so bloodthirsty that they even toppled the *REAL* genocidal regime that took over Cambodia.


----------



## JakeStarkey

José;3882742 said:
			
		

> Originally posted by *Political Chic*
> take any responsiblity for the millions of Asians killed by the communists that she supported....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Liar...
> 
> Show us any evidence that the vietnamese national liberation movement "killed millions of asians".
> 
> They were so bloodthirsty that they even toppled the *REAL* genocidal regime that took over Cambodia.
Click to expand...


My friend Political Chic's ability to misconstrue history remains troubling as well as amazing.  No one questions that the  NV communists opposed French, Japanese, and American imperialism.  No one questions that as communists, similar to the fascists of the totalitarian right, committed awful acts against the people.  But killed "millions"?  No.


----------



## PoliticalChic

José;3882742 said:
			
		

> Originally posted by *Political Chic*
> take any responsiblity for the millions of Asians killed by the communists that she supported....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Liar...
> 
> Show us any evidence that the vietnamese national liberation movement "killed millions of asians".
> 
> They were so bloodthirsty that they even toppled the *REAL* genocidal regime that took over Cambodia.
Click to expand...


1. As soon as one begins with "Liar..." they reveal the abject ignorance of the Left.

2. The use of the literary device "us," as though they spoke for masses of folks, reveals the lonliness of the ignorant.

3. In the scholarly *The Black Book of Communism, Stephane Courtois, et. al. *calculate (p. 572) that the Communists immediately shipped between* 200,000 and a million *to reeducation camps out of a population of 20 million. Execution numbered about 65,000 not counting those who died slowly in the camps.

a.	The new Communist Vietnam caused* hundreds of thousands *of ordinary people to flee their homes, with *over 800,000 *taking to the high seas in tiny boats. Commentary magazine, Who Won Vietnam?, May 1994.

4. Starting in April 75, the *Communist Khmer Rouge defeated Lon Nol in Cambodia. *Democrats, starting with the 1974 budget, refused to allocate another penny, and forbade US military action in or over Indochina. *Just as the right had warned*, the communists began a systematic war on the entire populations of their nation, so savage, it is hard to comprehend. It is estimated that *the number of dead numbered between 1.7 to 2.5 million *out of a population of around 8 million. The Killing Fields - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

a.	Frequently found in* totalitarian death cults, the Khmer Rouge *cadres were mostly teenagers, some as young as ten or twelve, produced by cruelty and indoctrination. Consistent with other communist conquests, the Khmer Rouge began the massive and grotesque project of remaking society from scratch. They began by emptying the cities: *every single person in Phnom Penh*- including the lame, hospital patients on intravenous drips, the sick and the elderly, mothers who had just given birth, the pregnant, and infants, - everyone was forced to march. Khmer Rouge rule of Cambodia - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


So let's review:
1. Between the two of us, I am not the "liar.'

2. Between the two of us, I am not the one whose IQ falls way way to the left on the bell curve.

3. Between the two of us, I am not the one who tries to hide ignorance behind words like "us" or "we."
I simply provide the actual evidence.

4. As per your request, I have provided the indicia that the vietnamese national liberation movement "killed millions of asians".
Now is the time for you to genuflect.


5. Rarely has a post exposed atavism as clearly as yours has! Wouldnt you be more comfortable on all fours?


----------



## PoliticalChic

I'd point out how my post destroys Jakey's post....but then, everybody's 
posts do.


----------



## blastoff

Couldn't happen to a nicer bitch.


----------



## Sallow

Cool.

And this should put to rest complaints when similar tactics are used to shut down right wing blowhards. It ain't freedom of speech when advertisers are paying for it.


----------



## PoliticalChic

Sallow said:


> Cool.
> 
> And this should put to rest complaints when similar tactics are used to shut down right wing blowhards. It ain't freedom of speech when advertisers are paying for it.



I realize that you have trouble comprehending subtilty...but consider this. It seems that the QVC folks were not prompted by a movement, such as Media Matters, or a Soros front....
they were individual Americans with a perspective.

"Fonda does herself a disservice by immediately blaming "well-funded and organized political extremist groups" -- she doesn't know where the calls came from, and was surprised by the cancellation."
Jane Fonda's QVC appearance pulled over Vietnam, she says - latimes.com


----------



## uscitizen

Amazing how an atheist Nam combat vet that never wanted to go to war or hurt anyone can understand and forgive but those christians who have never been in combat in nam cannot?


----------



## PoliticalChic

uscitizen said:


> Amazing how an atheist Nam combat vet that never wanted to go to war or hurt anyone can understand and forgive but those christians who have never been in combat in nam cannot?



Very  simple, and has little to do with religious perspective: I choose not to forgive those who give aid and comfort to those who would kill my brothers and sisters.


And, before you ask, I gave up any expectation of canonization long ago.


----------



## Sallow

José;3882742 said:
			
		

> Originally posted by *Political Chic*
> take any responsiblity for the millions of Asians killed by the communists that she supported....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Liar...
> 
> Show us any evidence that the vietnamese national liberation movement "killed millions of asians".
> 
> They were so bloodthirsty that they even toppled the *REAL* genocidal regime that took over Cambodia.
Click to expand...


Like I said. She's not really up on history. Shortly after the Americans left..China tried to "Annex" Vietnam and got their asses roundly kicked. Then, after seeing the devastation wrought by the Khmer Rouge..who Nixon SUPPORTED for a short time..they toppled them. THEN..they opened up trade relations with the United States..allowing all sorts of groups to come in to look for POWs.

She's a hack.

And not a very good hack at that.


----------



## R.D.

uscitizen said:


> Amazing how an atheist Nam combat vet that never wanted to go to war or hurt anyone can understand and forgive but those christians who have never been in combat in nam cannot?




I don't think she wants or cares about your forgiveness, not to take away how wonderful you are. 

She wants you to buy her stuff


----------



## PoliticalChic

Sallow said:


> José;3882742 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Originally posted by *Political Chic*
> take any responsiblity for the millions of Asians killed by the communists that she supported....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Liar...
> 
> Show us any evidence that the vietnamese national liberation movement "killed millions of asians".
> 
> They were so bloodthirsty that they even toppled the *REAL* genocidal regime that took over Cambodia.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Like I said. She's not really up on history. Shortly after the Americans left..China tried to "Annex" Vietnam and got their asses roundly kicked. Then, after seeing the devastation wrought by the Khmer Rouge..who Nixon SUPPORTED for a short time..they toppled them. THEN..they opened up trade relations with the United States..allowing all sorts of groups to come in to look for POWs.
> 
> She's a hack.
> 
> And not a very good hack at that.
Click to expand...


It's "As I said," not "Like I said."

Dunce.

I can't think of who it is you remind me of......
......oh, yeah....the bacterium that causes enteritis.


----------



## JakeStarkey

PoliticalChic said:


> I'd point out how my post destroys Jakey's post....but then, everybody's posts do.



Silly sophomoric PoliticalChic caught in the web of her master's values instead of developing her own.  Other than being a true follower, PC has some nice qualities.  Effective writing is not among them.


----------



## JakeStarkey

R.D. said:


> uscitizen said:
> 
> 
> 
> Amazing how an atheist Nam combat vet that never wanted to go to war or hurt anyone can understand and forgive but those christians who have never been in combat in nam cannot?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I don't think she wants or cares about your forgiveness, not to take away how wonderful you are.
> 
> She wants you to buy her stuff
Click to expand...


You could be right, but I doubt that is only about selling stuff.


----------



## Sallow

PoliticalChic said:


> Sallow said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> José;3882742 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Liar...
> 
> Show us any evidence that the vietnamese national liberation movement "killed millions of asians".
> 
> They were so bloodthirsty that they even toppled the *REAL* genocidal regime that took over Cambodia.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Like I said. She's not really up on history. Shortly after the Americans left..China tried to "Annex" Vietnam and got their asses roundly kicked. Then, after seeing the devastation wrought by the Khmer Rouge..who Nixon SUPPORTED for a short time..they toppled them. THEN..they opened up trade relations with the United States..allowing all sorts of groups to come in to look for POWs.
> 
> She's a hack.
> 
> And not a very good hack at that.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> It's "As I said," not "Like I said."
> 
> Dunce.
> 
> I can't think of who it is you remind me of......
> ......oh, yeah....the bacterium that causes enteritis.
Click to expand...


Like I said..

Like..

Like..you're a hack.

Like..and not a very good one at..like..that.

Like it?


----------



## Patrick2

José;3882392 said:
			
		

> I shake my head in disbelief when I read threads like this.
> 
> The real question people should be asking is whether the vietnamese people will someday forgive France and America for turning their country into a pile of rubble and killing 1 million vietnamese and here we have a bunch of mentally retarded super patriotic american clowns crucifying a woman that at least tried to do something to stop the massacre.



When the communists took over, they did the massacring - like 5 million in cambodia.


----------



## R.D.

JakeStarkey said:


> R.D. said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> uscitizen said:
> 
> 
> 
> Amazing how an atheist Nam combat vet that never wanted to go to war or hurt anyone can understand and forgive but those christians who have never been in combat in nam cannot?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I don't think she wants or cares about your forgiveness, not to take away how wonderful you are.
> 
> She wants you to buy her stuff
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You could be right, but I doubt that is only about selling stuff.
Click to expand...


A few years ago when shilling her autobiography she preteneded to apologize.

Now QVC cancelled her segment and she accuses them and their viewers  -  _"I am, to say the least, deeply disappointed that QVC caved to this kind of *insane pressure by some well funded and organized political extremist groups* "_ 

It's all business for her.


----------



## JakeStarkey

Patrick2 said:


> José;3882392 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I shake my head in disbelief when I read threads like this.
> 
> The real question people should be asking is whether the vietnamese people will someday forgive France and America for turning their country into a pile of rubble and killing 1 million vietnamese and here we have a bunch of mentally retarded super patriotic american clowns crucifying a woman that at least tried to do something to stop the massacre.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> When the communists took over, they did the massacring - like 5 million in cambodia.
Click to expand...


The Vietnamese communists, as cruel as they were, did not kill nearly as many civilians as did the French and American, and it was the Vietnamese that ended the Khymer Rouge's role.

Don't you know anything, Pat?


----------



## PoliticalChic

Sallow said:


> PoliticalChic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sallow said:
> 
> 
> 
> Like I said. She's not really up on history. Shortly after the Americans left..China tried to "Annex" Vietnam and got their asses roundly kicked. Then, after seeing the devastation wrought by the Khmer Rouge..who Nixon SUPPORTED for a short time..they toppled them. THEN..they opened up trade relations with the United States..allowing all sorts of groups to come in to look for POWs.
> 
> She's a hack.
> 
> And not a very good hack at that.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's "As I said," not "Like I said."
> 
> Dunce.
> 
> I can't think of who it is you remind me of......
> ......oh, yeah....the bacterium that causes enteritis.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Like I said..
> 
> Like..
> 
> Like..you're a hack.
> 
> Like..and not a very good one at..like..that.
> 
> Like it?
Click to expand...


Actually, yes.

The more you reveal your ignorance, the more it reflects on the Left.


Exactly as I planned.


So, the language is your problem? Let me make you feel at home, Ill speak to you in the language you are most familiar with: sit-stay-roll over.


----------



## Patrick2

JakeStarkey said:


> Patrick2 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> José;3882392 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I shake my head in disbelief when I read threads like this.
> 
> The real question people should be asking is whether the vietnamese people will someday forgive France and America for turning their country into a pile of rubble and killing 1 million vietnamese and here we have a bunch of mentally retarded super patriotic american clowns crucifying a woman that at least tried to do something to stop the massacre.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> When the communists took over, they did the massacring - like 5 million in cambodia.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The Vietnamese communists, as cruel as they were, did not kill nearly as many civilians as did the French and American, and it was the Vietnamese that ended the Khymer Rouge's role.
> 
> Don't you know anything, Pat?
Click to expand...


I come here to debate - I end up tutoring.  Get a clue:

The Killing Fields - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


----------



## JakeStarkey

PoliticalChic, girl, you never plan, only emote, then get hysterical when made to look foolish.  If you are the defender of the Right, your enemies won last week.


----------



## wayne

JakeStarkey said:


> José;3882742 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Originally posted by *Political Chic*
> take any responsiblity for the millions of Asians killed by the communists that she supported....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Liar...
> 
> Show us any evidence that the vietnamese national liberation movement "killed millions of asians".
> 
> They were so bloodthirsty that they even toppled the *REAL* genocidal regime that took over Cambodia.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> My friend Political Chic's ability to misconstrue history remains troubling as well as amazing.  No one questions that the  NV communists opposed French, Japanese, and American imperialism.  No one questions that as communists, similar to the fascists of the totalitarian right, committed awful acts against the people.  But killed "millions"?  No.
Click to expand...


The communist killed millions worldwide; perhaps a hundred million.


----------



## JakeStarkey

wayne said:


> JakeStarkey said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> José;3882742 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Liar...
> 
> Show us any evidence that the vietnamese national liberation movement "killed millions of asians".
> 
> They were so bloodthirsty that they even toppled the *REAL* genocidal regime that took over Cambodia.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> My friend Political Chic's ability to misconstrue history remains troubling as well as amazing.  No one questions that the  NV communists opposed French, Japanese, and American imperialism.  No one questions that as communists, similar to the fascists of the totalitarian right, committed awful acts against the people.  But killed "millions"?  No.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The communist killed millions worldwide; perhaps a hundred million.
Click to expand...


European invasion of the Americans killed scores of millions of Native Americans within a century.  Genghis Khan's armies apparently did in several million people.  You can find hundreds of other examples.  People kill people.


----------



## PoliticalChic

JakeStarkey said:


> PoliticalChic, girl, you never plan, only emote, then get hysterical when made to look foolish.  If you are the defender of the Right, your enemies won last week.



You sound like the Black Knight of Monty Python fame...."just a flesh wound."



[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ra_cUTmQykc&NR=1]&#x202a;Monty Python - Flesh Wound&#x202c;&rlm; - YouTube[/ame]



Dolt.


----------



## JakeStarkey

PoliticalChic said:


> JakeStarkey said:
> 
> 
> 
> PoliticalChic, girl, you never plan, only emote, then get hysterical when made to look foolish.  If you are the defender of the Right, your enemies won last week.
> 
> 
> 
> You sound like the Black Knight of Monty Python fame...."just a flesh wound."   [ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ra_cUTmQykc&NR=1]&#x202a;Monty Python - Flesh Wound&#x202c;&rlm; - YouTube[/ame]   Dolt.
Click to expand...


I used the Black Knight on you and your pals sometime past, remember, so I enjoy that you forgot and now are trying it on me.  Yes, my princess, you are the dolt of the writing far fascist right.


----------



## PoliticalChic

wayne said:


> JakeStarkey said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> José;3882742 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Liar...
> 
> Show us any evidence that the vietnamese national liberation movement "killed millions of asians".
> 
> They were so bloodthirsty that they even toppled the *REAL* genocidal regime that took over Cambodia.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> My friend Political Chic's ability to misconstrue history remains troubling as well as amazing.  No one questions that the  NV communists opposed French, Japanese, and American imperialism.  No one questions that as communists, similar to the fascists of the totalitarian right, committed awful acts against the people.  But killed "millions"?  No.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The communist killed millions worldwide; perhaps a hundred million.
Click to expand...



Of course you are correct. 

The definitive work on the subject is *"The Black Book of Communism: Crimes, Terror, Repression"* [Hardcover]
Mark Kramer (Editor), Jonathan Murphy (Translator), Nicolas Werth (Author), Jean-Louis Panne (Author), Andrzej Paczkowski (Author), Karel Bartosek (Author), Jean-Louis Margolin (Author)

At $40, you might like to find it in your local library.


From Publisher's Weekly:
In France, this damning reckoning of communism's worldwide legacy was a bestseller that sparked passionate arguments among intellectuals of the Left. Essentially a body count of communism's victims in the 20th century, the book draws heavily from recently opened Soviet archives. The verdict: *communism was responsible for between 85 million and 100 million deaths in the century. In France, both sales and controversy were fueled, as Martin Malia notes in the foreword, by editor Courtois's specific comparison of communism's "class genocide" with Nazism's "race genocide."*


----------



## JakeStarkey

"Class genocide" applies to the capitalists as well, who try to change society into the owners and the economic slaves.  Both unregulated capitalism and communism, as one Pope said, are the evils of the modern age.

You got half of it right.


----------



## PoliticalChic

JakeStarkey said:


> "Class genocide" applies to the capitalists as well, who try to change society into the owners and the economic slaves.  Both unregulated capitalism and communism, as one Pope said, are the evils of the modern age.
> 
> You got half of it right.



'....half right..." Now, why does that bring you to mind...hmmmmmm.

Imagine having to turn to you for validation, Jakey....

...that would rate a chapter in Melanie Phillips' book "The World Turned Upside Down."


----------



## wayne

JakeStarkey said:


> "Class genocide" applies to the capitalists as well, who try to change society into the owners and the economic slaves.  Both unregulated capitalism and communism, as one Pope said, are the evils of the modern age.
> 
> You got half of it right.




Where does unregulated capitalism exist in the twenty-first century?


----------



## Grace

I now dub Jake as Jane.


----------



## Claudette

My brother would like to take another trip to Nam. He'd like Jane to go with him. 

He'd like to be in the bomb bay of a B-52 with Jane. 

He'd like to pitch her out at 20 thousand feet.  

My Brother has no love for Jane Fonda. 

Neither do I.


----------



## wayne

I dedicated my life to the struggle against communism because as I was coming of age it was the chief form of tyranny. I hate bullies, thugs and all forms tyranny and slavery. 

A simply definition of modern communism would be: An economic political system where the government choose your job, you can&#8217;t quit and if you don&#8217;t work hard to satisfy your boss he can send you to a slave labor camp to be starved and worked to death.

Jane Fonda believes in communism but she is wrong. Communism is slavery and slavery is worse than death.


----------



## Two Thumbs

Did my post get deleted in the merge for calling fonda a traitor or for calling her a ****?

I simply can't refer to that vile thing on the same level as a moral human being.


----------



## konradv

Patrick2 said:


> JakeStarkey said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Patrick2 said:
> 
> 
> 
> When the communists took over, they did the massacring - like 5 million in cambodia.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Vietnamese communists, as cruel as they were, did not kill nearly as many civilians as did the French and American, and it was the Vietnamese that ended the Khymer Rouge's role.
> 
> Don't you know anything, Pat?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I come here to debate - I end up tutoring.  Get a clue:
> 
> The Killing Fields - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Click to expand...


Oh yeah?  Where does it say that the Vietnamese communists were the ones doing the killing?  The article credits them with STOPPING the Khmer Rouge.  How can you tutor, when you don't even read your own cite?!?!


----------



## JakeStarkey

wayne said:


> I dedicated my life to the struggle against communism because as I was coming of age it was the chief form of tyranny. I hate bullies, thugs and all forms tyranny and slavery.
> 
> A simply definition of modern communism would be: An economic political system where the government choose your job, you cant quit and if you dont work hard to satisfy your boss he can send you to a slave labor camp to be starved and worked to death.
> 
> Jane Fonda believes in communism but she is wrong. Communism is slavery and slavery is worse than death.



Then you hate the more extreme fascist and nativist wings of the Tea Party?


----------



## JakeStarkey

Grace said:


> I now dub Jake as Jane.



I dub Grace as Witless.

Witless, I gave you the last word, and now this.  I am crushed, absolutely crushed.


----------



## PoliticalChic

JakeStarkey said:


> PoliticalChic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JakeStarkey said:
> 
> 
> 
> PoliticalChic, girl, you never plan, only emote, then get hysterical when made to look foolish.  If you are the defender of the Right, your enemies won last week.
> 
> 
> 
> You sound like the Black Knight of Monty Python fame...."just a flesh wound."   [ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ra_cUTmQykc&NR=1]&#x202a;Monty Python - Flesh Wound&#x202c;&rlm; - YouTube[/ame]   Dolt.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I used the Black Knight on you and your pals sometime past, remember, so I enjoy that you forgot and now are trying it on me.  Yes, my princess, you are the dolt of the writing far fascist right.
Click to expand...


Now, here, Jakey is serving the interests of America!

1. Jakey...from your post #45: "No one questions that as communists, similar to the fascists of the totalitarian right, committed awful acts against the people. *But killed "millions"? No.* "

2. Then, in post #46, I produce linked documentation showing that you are dead wrong....

....and here is where it gets good:

3. Then you claim victory!  
You claim to win the argument! I love it!

4. Well, here we have a major step in Jake's campaign to reduce unemployment among psychiartrists!!
Bravo, Jakey! Or Jane, as Grace dubbed you....serving to reduce unemployment in America!

5. As the old saw goes, neurotics build castles in the sky,
Psychotics live in 'em,
And psychiatrists collect the rent.

Now...don't fall behind in your rent, Jakey....er, Jane!


Janey...did you want to apologize? Or retract your erroneous statements about the millions killed?  
Waiting.....


----------



## Caroljo

JakeStarkey said:


> tinydancer said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hey Jake. A hey and hello. I had two best friends serving in nam at the time when that douche bag went over and cheered the north on. Empowered the north. fucking barbarella. her only claim to fame is she was the daughter of an excellent actor.
> 
> Fuck you. And I still hope that monster who calls herself a patriot fucking dies the most horrible death for the shit she did.
> 
> You want to forgive her? By all means, that is what you can do. But for me, I hope she rots in hell.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Such a tiny damaged soul you have, tinydancer.  Five guys from high school died there.  At least another ten were wounded or injured.  None of us hate Jane Fonda.  You folks who weren't there have no moral legitimacy to hate.  Leave it to the vets from then to make the choice.
Click to expand...


My husband joined the Marines VOLUNTARILY and went to Viet Nam when he was 17.... if you think what others have said about her were nasty...you should hear the words that come out of his mouth!  Most americans that know what she did DO hate her...it was treason and she should have been shot!


----------



## JakeStarkey

PoliticalChic said:


> JakeStarkey said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PoliticalChic said:
> 
> 
> 
> You sound like the Black Knight of Monty Python fame...."just a flesh wound."   &#x202a;Monty Python - Flesh Wound&#x202c;&rlm; - YouTube   Dolt.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I used the Black Knight on you and your pals sometime past, remember, so I enjoy that you forgot and now are trying it on me.  Yes, my princess, you are the dolt of the writing far fascist right.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Now, here, Jakey is serving the interests of America!
> 
> 1. Jakey...from your post #45: "No one questions that as communists, similar to the fascists of the totalitarian right, committed awful acts against the people. *But killed "millions"? No.* "
> 
> 2. Then, in post #46, I produce linked documentation showing that you are dead wrong....
> 
> ....and here is where it gets good:
> 
> 3. Then you claim victory!
> You claim to win the argument! I love it!
> 
> 4. Well, here we have a major step in Jake's campaign to reduce unemployment among psychiartrists!!
> Bravo, Jakey! Or Jane, as Grace dubbed you....serving to reduce unemployment in America!
> 
> 5. As the old saw goes, neurotics build castles in the sky,
> Psychotics live in 'em,
> And psychiatrists collect the rent.
> 
> Now...don't fall behind in your rent, Jakey....er, Jane!
> 
> 
> Janey...did you want to apologize? Or retract your erroneous statements about the millions killed?
> Waiting.....
Click to expand...


You were talking about Vietnamese communists, not communists, in general, PC, go back and check.  Jose corrected you, and I reinforced that correction.

You lose.


----------



## Grace

Janey is a troll.


----------



## JakeStarkey

Caroljo said:


> JakeStarkey said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> tinydancer said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hey Jake. A hey and hello. I had two best friends serving in nam at the time when that douche bag went over and cheered the north on. Empowered the north. fucking barbarella. her only claim to fame is she was the daughter of an excellent actor.
> 
> Fuck you. And I still hope that monster who calls herself a patriot fucking dies the most horrible death for the shit she did.
> 
> You want to forgive her? By all means, that is what you can do. But for me, I hope she rots in hell.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Such a tiny damaged soul you have, tinydancer.  Five guys from high school died there.  At least another ten were wounded or injured.  None of us hate Jane Fonda.  You folks who weren't there have no moral legitimacy to hate.  Leave it to the vets from then to make the choice.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> My husband joined the Marines VOLUNTARILY and went to Viet Nam when he was 17.... if you think what others have said about her were nasty...you should hear the words that come out of his mouth!  Most americans that know what she did DO hate her...it was treason and she should have been shot!
Click to expand...


That's for your husband to decide, not you.  You don't have the moral legitimacy to decide (1) her behavior treasonous, and (2) whether her remorse is true.

Don't like it?  I don't care.


----------



## HenryBHough

I keep getting Hanoi Jane confused with Patty Hearst.  

But that probably doesn't matter.


----------



## Grace

JakeStarkey said:


> Caroljo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JakeStarkey said:
> 
> 
> 
> Such a tiny damaged soul you have, tinydancer.  Five guys from high school died there.  At least another ten were wounded or injured.  None of us hate Jane Fonda.  You folks who weren't there have no moral legitimacy to hate.  Leave it to the vets from then to make the choice.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> My husband joined the Marines VOLUNTARILY and went to Viet Nam when he was 17.... if you think what others have said about her were nasty...you should hear the words that come out of his mouth!  Most americans that know what she did DO hate her...it was treason and she should have been shot!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> That's for your husband to decide, not you.  You don't have the moral legitimacy to decide (1) her behavior treasonous, and (2) whether her remorse is true.
> 
> Don't like it?  I don't care.
Click to expand...


For someone that doesn't care, you sure care that some others don't agree with your opinion. Oh, and please refrain from trying to threaten me in pms. It isn't working.


----------



## Sallow

PoliticalChic said:


> Sallow said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PoliticalChic said:
> 
> 
> 
> It's "As I said," not "Like I said."
> 
> Dunce.
> 
> I can't think of who it is you remind me of......
> ......oh, yeah....the bacterium that causes enteritis.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Like I said..
> 
> Like..
> 
> Like..you're a hack.
> 
> Like..and not a very good one at..like..that.
> 
> Like it?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Actually, yes.
> 
> The more you reveal your ignorance, the more it reflects on the Left.
> 
> 
> Exactly as I planned.
> 
> 
> So, the language is your problem? Let me make you feel at home, Ill speak to you in the language you are most familiar with: sit-stay-roll over.
Click to expand...


Don't mess with a wolf..

Bad things could happen..

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SQoNv-hzC_Y]&#x202a;London Massacre Scene - An American Werewolf in London Movie (1981) - HD&#x202c;&rlm; - YouTube[/ame]


----------



## Sallow

Caroljo said:


> JakeStarkey said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> tinydancer said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hey Jake. A hey and hello. I had two best friends serving in nam at the time when that douche bag went over and cheered the north on. Empowered the north. fucking barbarella. her only claim to fame is she was the daughter of an excellent actor.
> 
> Fuck you. And I still hope that monster who calls herself a patriot fucking dies the most horrible death for the shit she did.
> 
> You want to forgive her? By all means, that is what you can do. But for me, I hope she rots in hell.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Such a tiny damaged soul you have, tinydancer.  Five guys from high school died there.  At least another ten were wounded or injured.  None of us hate Jane Fonda.  You folks who weren't there have no moral legitimacy to hate.  Leave it to the vets from then to make the choice.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> My husband joined the Marines VOLUNTARILY and went to Viet Nam when he was 17.... if you think what others have said about her were nasty...you should hear the words that come out of his mouth!  Most americans that know what she did DO hate her...it was treason and she should have been shot!
Click to expand...


Who are "most"?

And do you think America's involvement in Vietnam, a nation which never attacked or threatened us, a nation that simply wanted self-government..was legitimate?


----------



## Patrick2

Communists have killed about 100 million people over the 20th century - nobody else comes comes close.


----------



## Sallow

Patrick2 said:


> Communists have killed about 100 million people over the 20th century - nobody else comes comes close.





Ridiculous.

If you aggregate all communist movements..and all deaths as "killed" sure.

But using the same sort of methods..America sure comes close. And alone.


----------



## PoliticalChic

Sallow said:


> PoliticalChic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sallow said:
> 
> 
> 
> Like I said..
> 
> Like..
> 
> Like..you're a hack.
> 
> Like..and not a very good one at..like..that.
> 
> Like it?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Actually, yes.
> 
> The more you reveal your ignorance, the more it reflects on the Left.
> 
> 
> Exactly as I planned.
> 
> 
> So, the language is your problem? Let me make you feel at home, Ill speak to you in the language you are most familiar with: sit-stay-roll over.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Don't mess with a wolf..
> 
> Bad things could happen..
> 
> [ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SQoNv-hzC_Y]&#x202a;London Massacre Scene - An American Werewolf in London Movie (1981) - HD&#x202c;&rlm; - YouTube[/ame]
Click to expand...


Do you know who youre messing with? 
When ghosts go camping, they tell PoliticalChic stories!  
You've seen the 'Running of the Bulls'? Im the one chasing em!
I go UP Niagara Falls in a barrel!

Watch ya' step, buster...
.....I don't have a license to kill, but I have a learners' permit!


----------



## Moving to USA

I remember when she did those things back in the 60s, she was cut from TV and movies for years after, until the loopy hate American hippy freak leftists came of age and pretended she was ok.

 It would be nice to see her spend the rest of a very long life in a prison camp run exactly like those that she tried to embellish as friendly, humane and caring.

 May she rot in hell for her actions.


----------



## iamwhatiseem

Jane Fonda is stupid women...then and now.
In her book she tried to explain why she did what she did, but did not address the worst things she said such as telling Americans at home not to think of American POW's as heros, but that they are murderers and liars....this was not even in the book.
In the book she did not apologize, only saying that she regretted that she gave the NV the photo op on the anti-aircraft guns.
It was one thing to be against the Vietnam War, but she actively provided PR to the enemy who - let's not forget - murdered between 2-3 million people. A fact to this day she does not acknowledge.


----------



## PoliticalChic

Moving to USA said:


> I remember when she did those things back in the 60s, she was cut from TV and movies for years after, until the loopy hate American hippy freak leftists came of age and pretended she was ok.
> 
> It would be nice to see her spend the rest of a very long life in a prison camp run exactly like those that she tried to embellish as friendly, humane and caring.
> 
> May she rot in hell for her actions.



Actually, destiny may have a worse fate in store for Hanoi Jane....and I don't wish it to sound like I'm wishing this on her: the article said that, at 73, she is already having memory problems....


----------



## PoliticalChic

JakeStarkey said:


> PoliticalChic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JakeStarkey said:
> 
> 
> 
> I used the Black Knight on you and your pals sometime past, remember, so I enjoy that you forgot and now are trying it on me.  Yes, my princess, you are the dolt of the writing far fascist right.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Now, here, Jakey is serving the interests of America!
> 
> 1. Jakey...from your post #45: "No one questions that as communists, similar to the fascists of the totalitarian right, committed awful acts against the people. *But killed "millions"? No.* "
> 
> 2. Then, in post #46, I produce linked documentation showing that you are dead wrong....
> 
> ....and here is where it gets good:
> 
> 3. Then you claim victory!
> You claim to win the argument! I love it!
> 
> 4. Well, here we have a major step in Jake's campaign to reduce unemployment among psychiartrists!!
> Bravo, Jakey! Or Jane, as Grace dubbed you....serving to reduce unemployment in America!
> 
> 5. As the old saw goes, neurotics build castles in the sky,
> Psychotics live in 'em,
> And psychiatrists collect the rent.
> 
> Now...don't fall behind in your rent, Jakey....er, Jane!
> 
> 
> Janey...did you want to apologize? Or retract your erroneous statements about the millions killed?
> Waiting.....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You were talking about Vietnamese communists, not communists, in general, PC, go back and check.  Jose corrected you, and I reinforced that correction.
> 
> You lose.
Click to expand...


I see your new motto is "If at first you don't succeed, redefine success."


----------



## JakeStarkey

My policy is to call a mistake when you make it, PoliticalChic, point it out, and encourage you to do better.


----------



## Grace

JakeStarkey said:


> My policy is to call a mistake when you make it, PoliticalChic, point it out, and encourage you to do better.



You are a tard. I just pointed it out. Maybe it will encourage you to not be a tard.


----------



## Sky Dancer

I like Jane Fonda.  I've especially appreciated seeing her participate in the Vagina Monologues to stop violence against women.

Love those lefties.


----------



## JakeStarkey

Grace said:


> JakeStarkey said:
> 
> 
> 
> My policy is to call a mistake when you make it, PoliticalChic, point it out, and encourage you to do better.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You are a tard. I just pointed it out. Maybe it will encourage you to not be a tard.
Click to expand...


You are a dullard who wishes to play with the adults, but you are still a dullard.


----------



## Caroljo

JakeStarkey said:


> Caroljo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JakeStarkey said:
> 
> 
> 
> Such a tiny damaged soul you have, tinydancer.  Five guys from high school died there.  At least another ten were wounded or injured.  None of us hate Jane Fonda.  You folks who weren't there have no moral legitimacy to hate.  Leave it to the vets from then to make the choice.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> My husband joined the Marines VOLUNTARILY and went to Viet Nam when he was 17.... if you think what others have said about her were nasty...you should hear the words that come out of his mouth!  Most americans that know what she did DO hate her...it was treason and she should have been shot!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> That's for your husband to decide, not you.  You don't have the moral legitimacy to decide (1) her behavior treasonous, and (2) whether her remorse is true.
> 
> Don't like it?  I don't care.
Click to expand...


He DID decide...i've heard all about it..I'm just relaying the message to you!  Just because she didn't do anything to ME, should i think she's ok then?  I know what she did!


----------



## uscitizen

So much of peoples souls wasted on hatred of a person who never did them any harm at all....

Who teaches all this hatred to people?  People hate Jane who were mere babies when she did that stuff.

Politics seems to be very good at keeping fear and hatred alive.


----------



## Grace

uscitizen said:


> So much of peoples souls wasted on hatred of a person who never did them any harm at all....
> 
> Who teaches all this hatred to people?  People hate Jane who were mere babies when she did that stuff.
> 
> Politics seems to be very good at keeping fear and hatred alive.



I wasn't born yet when Hitler did all those atrocities. You can bet your butt I hate him and hope he is being burned non stop.


----------



## PoliticalChic

JakeStarkey said:


> My policy is to call a mistake when you make it, PoliticalChic, point it out, and encourage you to do better.



"My policy......"

Your policy is to try your hardest to be relevant....

....and, restricted by knowledge and ability....man, you've got one up-hill battle there!


----------



## uscitizen

Grace said:


> uscitizen said:
> 
> 
> 
> So much of peoples souls wasted on hatred of a person who never did them any harm at all....
> 
> Who teaches all this hatred to people?  People hate Jane who were mere babies when she did that stuff.
> 
> Politics seems to be very good at keeping fear and hatred alive.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I wasn't born yet when Hitler did all those atrocities. You can bet your butt I hate him and hope he is being burned non stop.
Click to expand...


You hate someone who is long since dead?
I would pray for peace in your soul if I did pray.

We should learn from mistakes and move forward in a positive direction without dragging the weight of hatred along.


----------



## Sallow

PoliticalChic said:


> Sallow said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PoliticalChic said:
> 
> 
> 
> Actually, yes.
> 
> The more you reveal your ignorance, the more it reflects on the Left.
> 
> 
> Exactly as I planned.
> 
> 
> So, the language is your problem? Let me make you feel at home, Ill speak to you in the language you are most familiar with: sit-stay-roll over.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Don't mess with a wolf..
> 
> Bad things could happen..
> 
> [ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SQoNv-hzC_Y]&#x202a;London Massacre Scene - An American Werewolf in London Movie (1981) - HD&#x202c;&rlm; - YouTube[/ame]
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Do you know who youre messing with?
> When ghosts go camping, they tell PoliticalChic stories!
> You've seen the 'Running of the Bulls'? Im the one chasing em!
> I go UP Niagara Falls in a barrel!
> 
> Watch ya' step, buster...
> .....I don't have a license to kill, but I have a learners' permit!
Click to expand...


You'd better be using silv...I mean lead bullets...yeah..lead.

That's it. Lead.


----------



## Grace

uscitizen said:


> Grace said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> uscitizen said:
> 
> 
> 
> So much of peoples souls wasted on hatred of a person who never did them any harm at all....
> 
> Who teaches all this hatred to people?  People hate Jane who were mere babies when she did that stuff.
> 
> Politics seems to be very good at keeping fear and hatred alive.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I wasn't born yet when Hitler did all those atrocities. You can bet your butt I hate him and hope he is being burned non stop.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You hate someone who is long since dead?
> I would pray for peace in your soul if I did pray.
> 
> We should learn from mistakes and move forward in a positive direction without dragging the weight of hatred along.
Click to expand...


Sorry to disappoint you but I'll carry my hatred of despots, insane people who murder millions, kids who hammer their parents, parents who torture their children, pedophiles who rape kids, wackos who torture animals, bitches who betray their own countrymen, etc etc etc. Save your prayers for those who don't want to hate those things. I don't.


----------



## Sallow

iamwhatiseem said:


> Jane Fonda is stupid women...then and now.
> In her book she tried to explain why she did what she did, but did not address the worst things she said such as telling Americans at home not to think of American POW's as heros, but that they are murderers and liars....this was not even in the book.
> In the book she did not apologize, only saying that she regretted that she gave the NV the photo op on the anti-aircraft guns.
> It was one thing to be against the Vietnam War, but she actively provided PR to the enemy who - let's not forget - *murdered between 2-3 million people.* A fact to this day she does not acknowledge.



Who killed 2-3 million people?

That's about the number of Vietnamese killed by American actions in Vietnam.

America dropped more bombs on that tiny country then it's used in every war before that combined.

It was disgusting and shameful.


----------



## PoliticalChic

Sallow said:


> PoliticalChic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sallow said:
> 
> 
> 
> Don't mess with a wolf..
> 
> Bad things could happen..
> 
> &#x202a;London Massacre Scene - An American Werewolf in London Movie (1981) - HD&#x202c;&rlm; - YouTube
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Do you know who youre messing with?
> When ghosts go camping, they tell PoliticalChic stories!
> You've seen the 'Running of the Bulls'? Im the one chasing em!
> I go UP Niagara Falls in a barrel!
> 
> Watch ya' step, buster...
> .....I don't have a license to kill, but I have a learners' permit!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You'd better be using silv...I mean lead bullets...yeah..lead.
> 
> That's it. Lead.
Click to expand...


Watch the lower left corner....watch very carefully...and learn.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ljau7R9ut1s]


----------



## uscitizen

Grace said:


> uscitizen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Grace said:
> 
> 
> 
> I wasn't born yet when Hitler did all those atrocities. You can bet your butt I hate him and hope he is being burned non stop.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You hate someone who is long since dead?
> I would pray for peace in your soul if I did pray.
> 
> We should learn from mistakes and move forward in a positive direction without dragging the weight of hatred along.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Sorry to disappoint you but I'll carry my hatred of despots, insane people who murder millions, kids who hammer their parents, parents who torture their children, pedophiles who rape kids, wackos who torture animals, bitches who betray their own countrymen, etc etc etc. Save your prayers for those who don't want to hate those things. I don't.
Click to expand...


Carry forward positive action not hatred.
But your choice and it will harm you more than them.  especially a dead person...


----------



## Grace

I don't live my life thinking about fruitloops who murder, uscitizen. But if the subject comes up, I will express what I feel about them. Burying my head in the sand won't make what they did or will do go away. But I appreciate your stance. Let me appreciate mine, ok?


----------



## José

> Originally posted by *Grace*
> Sorry to disappoint you but I'll carry my hatred of despots, insane people who murder millions, kids who hammer their parents, parents who torture their children, pedophiles who rape kids, wackos who torture animals, bitches who betray their own countrymen, etc etc etc. Save your prayers for those who don't want to hate those things. I don't.


OK, you already expressed your hatred of "bitches who betray their own countrymen".

Now when are you going to express your hatred of "people who murdered millions" in Vietnam (US political leaders and the soldiers who carried out their orders)?


----------



## uscitizen

Grace said:


> I don't live my life thinking about fruitloops who murder, uscitizen. But if the subject comes up, I will express what I feel about them. Burying my head in the sand won't make what they did or will do go away. But I appreciate your stance. Let me appreciate mine, ok?



As I said carry your burden of hatred if it suits you too.  Life is a lot calmer without it though.


----------



## Againsheila

wayne said:


> Someone should tell Jane Fonda that words are cheap. If she wants not to be recorded in US History as a traitor all she has to do is get in her time machine and go back to 1960s and 70s and not make propaganda for the enemy.
> 
> __________________________________________________________________________________
> http://news.yahoo.com/jane-fonda-jabs-q ... 47808.html
> 
> ..LOS ANGELES (Reuters) - A new controversy over Oscar winner Jane Fonda's Vietnam War activism caused the actress to come out swinging against home shopping TV network QVC on Saturday, over what she described as its caving in to "extremist" pressure to cancel her appearance.
> 
> In a blog posting on showbusiness website TheWrap.com, Fonda wrote that she was scheduled to appear on QVC on Saturday to introduce her book "Prime Time" about aging and life cycles.
> 
> But the network, Fonda wrote, reported receiving a flood of angry calls regarding her anti-war activism of the 1960s and 1970s, and it decided to cancel Fonda's appearance.
> 
> Four decades ago, the American actress angered Vietnam War supporters who gave her the nickname "Hanoi Jane" for her 1972 visit to the capital of North Vietnam at the height of the conflict. At the time, she posed for photos showing her sitting atop a Viet Cong anti-aircraft gun, and she remains an object of derision by some U.S. veterans and others.
> 
> Fonda, 73, has in the past expressed regret about those images, and in her post at The Wrap she took aim at QVC and her critics.
> 
> "I am, to say the least, deeply disappointed that QVC caved to this kind of insane pressure by some well funded and organized political extremist groups," Fonda wrote.
> 
> QVC acknowledged Fonda's appearance was canceled, but said it was because of a "programing change."
> 
> "It's not unusual to have a schedule change with our shows and guests with little or no notice," QVC spokesman Paul Capelli said in a statement.
> 
> "I can't speak to Ms. Fonda's comments, other than to confirm that a change in scheduling resulted in her not appearing today."
> 
> In 2005, Fonda was spat upon at a book signing in Kansas City, Missouri, by a man who said he was angered by her Vietnam War-era actions.
> 
> "Bottom line, this has gone on far too long, this spreading of lies about me!" Fonda wrote at TheWrap.com. "...* I love my country. I have never done anything to hurt my country or the men and women who have fought and continue to fight for us."*
> 
> The daughter of late screen legend Henry Fonda, the actress most recently starred in 2007 film "Georgia Rule." She won Oscars for roles in the films "Coming Home" (1978) and "Klute" (1971).
> 
> QVC is a unit of Liberty Media Corp.
> 
> (Reporting by Alex Dobuzinskis: Editing by Bob Tourtellotte)



Boy, does she have selective memory.


----------



## uscitizen

Againsheila said:


> wayne said:
> 
> 
> 
> Someone should tell Jane Fonda that words are cheap. If she wants not to be recorded in US History as a traitor all she has to do is get in her time machine and go back to 1960s and 70s and not make propaganda for the enemy.
> 
> __________________________________________________________________________________
> http://news.yahoo.com/jane-fonda-jabs-q ... 47808.html
> 
> ..LOS ANGELES (Reuters) - A new controversy over Oscar winner Jane Fonda's Vietnam War activism caused the actress to come out swinging against home shopping TV network QVC on Saturday, over what she described as its caving in to "extremist" pressure to cancel her appearance.
> 
> In a blog posting on showbusiness website TheWrap.com, Fonda wrote that she was scheduled to appear on QVC on Saturday to introduce her book "Prime Time" about aging and life cycles.
> 
> But the network, Fonda wrote, reported receiving a flood of angry calls regarding her anti-war activism of the 1960s and 1970s, and it decided to cancel Fonda's appearance.
> 
> Four decades ago, the American actress angered Vietnam War supporters who gave her the nickname "Hanoi Jane" for her 1972 visit to the capital of North Vietnam at the height of the conflict. At the time, she posed for photos showing her sitting atop a Viet Cong anti-aircraft gun, and she remains an object of derision by some U.S. veterans and others.
> 
> Fonda, 73, has in the past expressed regret about those images, and in her post at The Wrap she took aim at QVC and her critics.
> 
> "I am, to say the least, deeply disappointed that QVC caved to this kind of insane pressure by some well funded and organized political extremist groups," Fonda wrote.
> 
> QVC acknowledged Fonda's appearance was canceled, but said it was because of a "programing change."
> 
> "It's not unusual to have a schedule change with our shows and guests with little or no notice," QVC spokesman Paul Capelli said in a statement.
> 
> "I can't speak to Ms. Fonda's comments, other than to confirm that a change in scheduling resulted in her not appearing today."
> 
> In 2005, Fonda was spat upon at a book signing in Kansas City, Missouri, by a man who said he was angered by her Vietnam War-era actions.
> 
> "Bottom line, this has gone on far too long, this spreading of lies about me!" Fonda wrote at TheWrap.com. "...* I love my country. I have never done anything to hurt my country or the men and women who have fought and continue to fight for us."*
> 
> The daughter of late screen legend Henry Fonda, the actress most recently starred in 2007 film "Georgia Rule." She won Oscars for roles in the films "Coming Home" (1978) and "Klute" (1971).
> 
> QVC is a unit of Liberty Media Corp.
> 
> (Reporting by Alex Dobuzinskis: Editing by Bob Tourtellotte)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Boy, does she have selective memory.
Click to expand...


Ype and the hatred for her is a selective memory as well.
Not sure why anyone even pays any attention to her at all, except for political programming I suppose.


----------



## Sallow

PoliticalChic said:


> Sallow said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PoliticalChic said:
> 
> 
> 
> Do you know who youre messing with?
> When ghosts go camping, they tell PoliticalChic stories!
> You've seen the 'Running of the Bulls'? Im the one chasing em!
> I go UP Niagara Falls in a barrel!
> 
> Watch ya' step, buster...
> .....I don't have a license to kill, but I have a learners' permit!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You'd better be using silv...I mean lead bullets...yeah..lead.
> 
> That's it. Lead.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Watch the lower left corner....watch very carefully...and learn.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ljau7R9ut1s]
Click to expand...



Yeah..I saw that as it was happening..

Fun stuff.

Stand by your man..Tiger mom!


----------



## Againsheila

uscitizen said:


> Againsheila said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> wayne said:
> 
> 
> 
> Someone should tell Jane Fonda that words are cheap. If she wants not to be recorded in US History as a traitor all she has to do is get in her time machine and go back to 1960s and 70s and not make propaganda for the enemy.
> 
> __________________________________________________________________________________
> http://news.yahoo.com/jane-fonda-jabs-q ... 47808.html
> 
> ..LOS ANGELES (Reuters) - A new controversy over Oscar winner Jane Fonda's Vietnam War activism caused the actress to come out swinging against home shopping TV network QVC on Saturday, over what she described as its caving in to "extremist" pressure to cancel her appearance.
> 
> In a blog posting on showbusiness website TheWrap.com, Fonda wrote that she was scheduled to appear on QVC on Saturday to introduce her book "Prime Time" about aging and life cycles.
> 
> But the network, Fonda wrote, reported receiving a flood of angry calls regarding her anti-war activism of the 1960s and 1970s, and it decided to cancel Fonda's appearance.
> 
> Four decades ago, the American actress angered Vietnam War supporters who gave her the nickname "Hanoi Jane" for her 1972 visit to the capital of North Vietnam at the height of the conflict. At the time, she posed for photos showing her sitting atop a Viet Cong anti-aircraft gun, and she remains an object of derision by some U.S. veterans and others.
> 
> Fonda, 73, has in the past expressed regret about those images, and in her post at The Wrap she took aim at QVC and her critics.
> 
> "I am, to say the least, deeply disappointed that QVC caved to this kind of insane pressure by some well funded and organized political extremist groups," Fonda wrote.
> 
> QVC acknowledged Fonda's appearance was canceled, but said it was because of a "programing change."
> 
> "It's not unusual to have a schedule change with our shows and guests with little or no notice," QVC spokesman Paul Capelli said in a statement.
> 
> "I can't speak to Ms. Fonda's comments, other than to confirm that a change in scheduling resulted in her not appearing today."
> 
> In 2005, Fonda was spat upon at a book signing in Kansas City, Missouri, by a man who said he was angered by her Vietnam War-era actions.
> 
> "Bottom line, this has gone on far too long, this spreading of lies about me!" Fonda wrote at TheWrap.com. "...* I love my country. I have never done anything to hurt my country or the men and women who have fought and continue to fight for us."*
> 
> The daughter of late screen legend Henry Fonda, the actress most recently starred in 2007 film "Georgia Rule." She won Oscars for roles in the films "Coming Home" (1978) and "Klute" (1971).
> 
> QVC is a unit of Liberty Media Corp.
> 
> (Reporting by Alex Dobuzinskis: Editing by Bob Tourtellotte)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Boy, does she have selective memory.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Ype and the hatred for her is a selective memory as well.
> Not sure why anyone even pays any attention to her at all, except for political programming I suppose.
Click to expand...


She'd get a lot more respect if she admitted she did wrong, apologize and keep apologizing instead of lying and saying it never happened.  Instead of blaming QVC, she should have admitted she was wrong in the past and it's catching up with her.  She should apologize to those she hurt and swear it will never happen again.  Eventually, most people will forgive her.  It's terribly hard to forgive someone that isn't contrite.


----------



## Sallow

José;3885600 said:
			
		

> Originally posted by *Grace*
> Sorry to disappoint you but I'll carry my hatred of despots, insane people who murder millions, kids who hammer their parents, parents who torture their children, pedophiles who rape kids, wackos who torture animals, bitches who betray their own countrymen, etc etc etc. Save your prayers for those who don't want to hate those things. I don't.
> 
> 
> 
> OK, you already expressed your hatred of "bitches who betray their own countrymen".
> 
> Now when are you going to express your hatred of "people who murdered millions" in Vietnam (US political leaders and the soldiers who carried out their orders)?
Click to expand...


Soldiers have no choice. They are charged with carrying out the legal orders of the civilian government. The Majority of people who served in Vietnam..did so honorably. And many went without joining of their own free will.


----------



## Sallow

Againsheila said:


> uscitizen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Againsheila said:
> 
> 
> 
> Boy, does she have selective memory.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ype and the hatred for her is a selective memory as well.
> Not sure why anyone even pays any attention to her at all, except for political programming I suppose.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> She'd get a lot more respect if she admitted she did wrong, apologize and keep apologizing instead of lying and saying it never happened.  Instead of blaming QVC, she should have admitted she was wrong in the past and it's catching up with her.  She should apologize to those she hurt and swear it will never happen again.  Eventually, most people will forgive her.  It's terribly hard to forgive someone that isn't contrite.
Click to expand...


Bullshit.



> I would like to say something, not just to Vietnam veterans in New England, but to men who were in Vietnam, who I hurt, or whose pain I caused to deepen because of things that I said or did. I was trying to help end the killing and the war, but there were times when I was thoughtless and careless about it and I'm very sorry that I hurt them. And I want to apologize to them and their families. [...] I will go to my grave regretting the photograph of me in an anti-aircraft gun, which looks like I was trying to shoot at American planes. It hurt so many soldiers. It galvanized such hostility. It was the most horrible thing I could possibly have done. It was just thoughtless..."[40]
> Jane Fonda - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



When did any American President apologize for Vietnam? It was a genocide. And a war crime.


----------



## iamwhatiseem

Sallow said:


> iamwhatiseem said:
> 
> 
> 
> Jane Fonda is stupid women...then and now.
> In her book she tried to explain why she did what she did, but did not address the worst things she said such as telling Americans at home not to think of American POW's as heros, but that they are murderers and liars....this was not even in the book.
> In the book she did not apologize, only saying that she regretted that she gave the NV the photo op on the anti-aircraft guns.
> It was one thing to be against the Vietnam War, but she actively provided PR to the enemy who - let's not forget - *murdered between 2-3 million people.* A fact to this day she does not acknowledge.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Who killed 2-3 million people?
> 
> That's about the number of Vietnamese killed by American actions in Vietnam.
> 
> America dropped more bombs on that tiny country then it's used in every war before that combined.
> 
> It was disgusting and shameful.
Click to expand...


Seriously?? Ever hear of Cambodia?


----------



## JakeStarkey

PoliticalChic said:


> JakeStarkey said:
> 
> 
> 
> My policy is to call a mistake when you make it, PoliticalChic, point it out, and encourage you to do better.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "My policy......"
> 
> Your policy is to try your hardest to be relevant....
> 
> ....and, restricted by knowledge and ability....man, you've got one up-hill battle there!
Click to expand...


You have to do better.  You were wrong, I corrected it, and you can't apologize?  You are not perfect, far from it.


----------



## Againsheila

Sallow said:


> Againsheila said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> uscitizen said:
> 
> 
> 
> Ype and the hatred for her is a selective memory as well.
> Not sure why anyone even pays any attention to her at all, except for political programming I suppose.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> She'd get a lot more respect if she admitted she did wrong, apologize and keep apologizing instead of lying and saying it never happened.  Instead of blaming QVC, she should have admitted she was wrong in the past and it's catching up with her.  She should apologize to those she hurt and swear it will never happen again.  Eventually, most people will forgive her.  It's terribly hard to forgive someone that isn't contrite.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Bullshit.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I would like to say something, not just to Vietnam veterans in New England, but to men who were in Vietnam, who I hurt, or whose pain I caused to deepen because of things that I said or did. I was trying to help end the killing and the war, but there were times when I was thoughtless and careless about it and I'm very sorry that I hurt them. And I want to apologize to them and their families. [...] I will go to my grave regretting the photograph of me in an anti-aircraft gun, which looks like I was trying to shoot at American planes. It hurt so many soldiers. It galvanized such hostility. It was the most horrible thing I could possibly have done. It was just thoughtless..."[40]
> Jane Fonda - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> When did any American President apologize for Vietnam? It was a genocide. And a war crime.
Click to expand...


yeah, she apologized once and now she says she never did anything against our government or our soldiers...ie..it never happened.  How can anyone believe anything she says.  Did you read the OP?

." I love my country. I have never done anything to hurt my country or the men and women who have fought and continue to fight for us.""

Those are not the words of someone who is sorry for her actions.

You can save the presidents for another thread, this one is about the traitor Jane Fonda.


----------



## WillowTree

JakeStarkey said:


> Grace said:
> 
> 
> 
> That bitch can rot in hell and I hope today's youth NEVER forget Hanoi Jane. Fuck her and her whining. Good for QVC!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Get a life, Grace.  Sheesh.  I am a veteran, a lifetime member of the DAV.  If I can let it go, I really don't want to hear it from you.
Click to expand...


That's tough ain't it starkey larkey.. Grace lives in America,, she has a constitutional right to free speech. Fuck Hanoi Jane.


----------



## Vast LWC

Man, I know you people are desperate for something to distract from the downward spiral of NewsCorp, but this is just sad.

LOL.


----------



## Patrick2

Sallow said:


> Patrick2 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Communists have killed about 100 million people over the 20th century - nobody else comes comes close.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ridiculous.
> 
> If you aggregate all communist movements..and all deaths as "killed" sure.
> 
> But using the same sort of methods..America sure comes close. And alone.
Click to expand...


Hogwash. Read up:  "The Black Book of Communism".  Communists KILLED in round numbers 100 million.  Note: of course the leftwingers, culpable for communism being around so long, have tried to historically revise" that account - but for libs/leftwingers, lying is like breathing for normal people.


----------



## Sallow

Againsheila said:


> Sallow said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Againsheila said:
> 
> 
> 
> She'd get a lot more respect if she admitted she did wrong, apologize and keep apologizing instead of lying and saying it never happened.  Instead of blaming QVC, she should have admitted she was wrong in the past and it's catching up with her.  She should apologize to those she hurt and swear it will never happen again.  Eventually, most people will forgive her.  It's terribly hard to forgive someone that isn't contrite.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Bullshit.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I would like to say something, not just to Vietnam veterans in New England, but to men who were in Vietnam, who I hurt, or whose pain I caused to deepen because of things that I said or did. I was trying to help end the killing and the war, but there were times when I was thoughtless and careless about it and I'm very sorry that I hurt them. And I want to apologize to them and their families. [...] I will go to my grave regretting the photograph of me in an anti-aircraft gun, which looks like I was trying to shoot at American planes. It hurt so many soldiers. It galvanized such hostility. It was the most horrible thing I could possibly have done. It was just thoughtless..."[40]
> Jane Fonda - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> When did any American President apologize for Vietnam? It was a genocide. And a war crime.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> yeah, she apologized once and now she says she never did anything against our government or our soldiers...ie..it never happened.  How can anyone believe anything she says.  Did you read the OP?
> 
> ." I love my country. I have never done anything to hurt my country or the men and women who have fought and continue to fight for us.""
> 
> Those are not the words of someone who is sorry for her actions.
> 
> You can save the presidents for another thread, this one is about the traitor Jane Fonda.
Click to expand...


Jane Fonda did nothing wrong and is no traitor.

Pointing out genocide and war crimes makes you a hero.


----------



## Sallow

Patrick2 said:


> Sallow said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Patrick2 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Communists have killed about 100 million people over the 20th century - nobody else comes comes close.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ridiculous.
> 
> If you aggregate all communist movements..and all deaths as "killed" sure.
> 
> But using the same sort of methods..America sure comes close. And alone.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Hogwash. Read up:  "The Black Book of Communism".  Communists KILLED in round numbers 100 million.  Note: of course the leftwingers, culpable for communism being around so long, have tried to historically revise" that account - but for libs/leftwingers, lying is like breathing for normal people.
Click to expand...


Oh really..

Do tell.

How did all this "killing" take place.

Did the Chinese force their own people to use opium. Oh wait..no..that was the United States that forced the Chinese to use opium!

Boxer Rebellion - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Gosh darn it.

So I am wondering..would deaths caused by Opium overdoses be considered "killing" by America?


----------



## JakeStarkey

WillowTree said:


> JakeStarkey said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Grace said:
> 
> 
> 
> That bitch can rot in hell and I hope today's youth NEVER forget Hanoi Jane. Fuck her and her whining. Good for QVC!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Get a life, Grace.  Sheesh.  I am a veteran, a lifetime member of the DAV.  If I can let it go, I really don't want to hear it from you.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> That's tough ain't it starkey larkey.. Grace lives in America,, she has a constitutional right to free speech. Fuck Hanoi Jane.
Click to expand...


And Moscow Mollie spittles across the page.  Grace has the right to be told she is an ungrateful American hysteriac.  She can take the heat, or she can take the beat with her fat little feat.


----------



## Dr Grump

Jack Fate said:


> José;3882686 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Originally posted by *Sunni Man*
> First of all let me qualify by saying that I am a Vietnam vet.
> 
> Secondly, history has proven Jane Fonda to be correct in her assessment of the United States involvement of the war.
> 
> Last, we need more patriotic people like her to stand up and fight against government injustice and abuse.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Originally posted by *Sallow*
> Vietnam was a war crime..and a Genocide.
> 
> What Fonda did should have made her a hero.
> 
> I don't know how any American can get behind the slaughter that was Vietnam. Millions of innocent people were killed as a result of America's invasion. Fonda's only problem was that she didn't see that the troops were as trapped into this bullshit as the Vietnamese.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Everybody knows the story of the old grandpa thrown into a madhouse by their greedy relatives. Well... Sallow, Sunni, konrad offer definitive proof that I'm not the only sane people in a madhouse.
> 
> But this debate is a waste of time... Extreme, pathological nationalism has the effect of clouding people's judgement, it prevents people from thinking clearly, from distinguishing the forest from the trees.
> 
> In the eyes of the pathologically nationalist individual a trip to Vietnam to stop the wholesale slaughter of a third world people and to show support for a genuine, grassroots nationalist movement is more outrageous than the total clusterfuck created by the leaders of their own nation that motivated the trip in the first place.
> 
> If wayne, CarolJo, Grace, Patrick2 etc... had been born in ancient Rome they'd be portraying Jesus as a monster for whipping the money changers while turning a blind eye to each and every atrocity commited by the Roman Empire.
> 
> They criticize Nazi Germany's national anthem ("Deutchland uber alles" = "Germany above everything") but can't help goose-stepping to the sound of the US national anthem.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> She showed support for our enemy, doesn't matter your opinion of who was right or wrong.  We all had family over there fighting, being mutilated, and dying.   You can have your opinion about a war without helping the enemy with his propaganda.  She went too far.  Some of you just don't get it.
Click to expand...


She apologised. She was young and naive, and some of what she said was right...but not all. That was then...


----------



## JakeStarkey

Dr Grump said:


> Jack Fate said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> José;3882686 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Everybody knows the story of the old grandpa thrown into a madhouse by their greedy relatives. Well... Sallow, Sunni, konrad offer definitive proof that I'm not the only sane people in a madhouse.
> 
> But this debate is a waste of time... Extreme, pathological nationalism has the effect of clouding people's judgement, it prevents people from thinking clearly, from distinguishing the forest from the trees.
> 
> In the eyes of the pathologically nationalist individual a trip to Vietnam to stop the wholesale slaughter of a third world people and to show support for a genuine, grassroots nationalist movement is more outrageous than the total clusterfuck created by the leaders of their own nation that motivated the trip in the first place.
> 
> If wayne, CarolJo, Grace, Patrick2 etc... had been born in ancient Rome they'd be portraying Jesus as a monster for whipping the money changers while turning a blind eye to each and every atrocity commited by the Roman Empire.
> 
> They criticize Nazi Germany's national anthem ("Deutchland uber alles" = "Germany above everything") but can't help goose-stepping to the sound of the US national anthem.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> She showed support for our enemy, doesn't matter your opinion of who was right or wrong.  We all had family over there fighting, being mutilated, and dying.   You can have your opinion about a war without helping the enemy with his propaganda.  She went too far.  Some of you just don't get it.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> She apologised. She was young and naive, and some of what she said was right...but not all. That was then...
Click to expand...


Just so.  The hating hypocrites can hop on outta here.


----------



## Dr Grump

JakeStarkey said:


> Dr Grump said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jack Fate said:
> 
> 
> 
> She showed support for our enemy, doesn't matter your opinion of who was right or wrong.  We all had family over there fighting, being mutilated, and dying.   You can have your opinion about a war without helping the enemy with his propaganda.  She went too far.  Some of you just don't get it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> She apologised. She was young and naive, and some of what she said was right...but not all. That was then...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Just so.  The hating hypocrites can hop on outta here.
Click to expand...


Oh I know. The rabbidness with which some of these righties react/act towards certain people makes me think I'm in Nazi germany crica 1933....all hysteria with little to back them up...


----------



## tinydancer

Odd how Hanoi Jane never protested the Khmer Rouge. You know Hanoi Jane the hero speaking out against genocide and war crimes...

 Could it be because they were Communists?


----------



## Sallow

tinydancer said:


> Odd how Hanoi Jane never protested the Khmer Rouge. You know Hanoi Jane the hero speaking out against genocide and war crimes...
> 
> Could it be because they were Communists?



Naw.

The Vietnamese took em out.

Wonder if Ol' Tricky Dick was proud he once supported them.

Seems conservatives could give a shit.


----------



## tinydancer

Sallow said:


> tinydancer said:
> 
> 
> 
> Odd how Hanoi Jane never protested the Khmer Rouge. You know Hanoi Jane the hero speaking out against genocide and war crimes...
> 
> Could it be because they were Communists?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Naw.
> 
> The Vietnamese took em out.
> 
> Wonder if Ol' Tricky Dick was proud he once supported them.
> 
> Seems conservatives could give a shit.
Click to expand...


The Khmer Rouge were still communists. And Nixon had not a problem with Communist China either now, did he?

I still think that JFK escalated the war in the hopes of keeping South Vietnam out of the hands of Communists.On the other hand,  LBJ made his family fortune on the war though. $$$$$$$ mega bucks for Johnson. 

And Hanoi Jane never protested the genocide being committed by the Khmer Rouge. One would think that this hero would be against any and all genocides.

Interesting Bill O'Reilly interview with Ted Turner where O'Reilly brings up Fonda's silence on the genocide and Turner admits he himself ignored that little Cambodian genocide because it wasn't on the news much, lol.


----------



## JakeStarkey

tinydancer said:


> Odd how Hanoi Jane never protested the Khmer Rouge. You know Hanoi Jane the hero speaking out against genocide and war crimes...
> 
> Could it be because they were Communists?



That's a good point.  Why don't you check to make sure your statement is correct?

Otherwise, you are just blowing air out your ass.


----------



## Patrick2

Sallow said:


> tinydancer said:
> 
> 
> 
> Odd how Hanoi Jane never protested the Khmer Rouge. You know Hanoi Jane the hero speaking out against genocide and war crimes...
> 
> Could it be because they were Communists?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Naw.
> 
> The Vietnamese took em out.
> 
> Wonder if Ol' Tricky Dick was proud he once supported them.
> 
> Seems conservatives could give a shit.
Click to expand...


Let's be clear here.  The vietnamese didn't topple the khmer rouge regime because they had a tender concern for the 1/3 of the population being killed by them, they did it because after the end of the vietnam war, the khmer rouge attacked vietnam.  As for Nixon, he ended the war started by democrats.


----------



## tinydancer

JakeStarkey said:


> tinydancer said:
> 
> 
> 
> Odd how Hanoi Jane never protested the Khmer Rouge. You know Hanoi Jane the hero speaking out against genocide and war crimes...
> 
> Could it be because they were Communists?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That's a good point.  Why don't you check to make sure your statement is correct?
> 
> Otherwise, you are just blowing air out your ass.
Click to expand...


Oh, there is no doubt they were Communist. And psycho crazy homicidal maniacal commies to boot.

_ * Following their leader Pol Pot, the Khmer Rouge imposed an extreme form of social engineering on Cambodian society &#8212; a radical form of agrarian communism where the whole population had to work in collective farms or forced labour projects.

 In terms of the number of people killed as a proportion of the population (est. 7.1 million people, as of 1975[6]), it was the most lethal regime of the 20th century.[7]

The Khmer Rouge wanted to eliminate anyone suspected of "involvement in free-market activities".

 Suspected capitalists encompassed professionals and almost everyone with an education, many urban dwellers, and people with connections to foreign governments.

The Khmer Rouge believed parents were tainted with capitalism. 

Consequently, children were separated from parents and brainwashed to communism as well as taught torture methods with animals.

 Children were a "dictatorial instrument of the party"[8] and were given leadership in torture and executions.[1] 


Flag of Democratic KampucheaOne of their mottoes, in reference to the New People, was: "To keep you is no benefit. To destroy you is no loss."[9] The ideology of the Khmer Rouge evolved over time.

 In the early days, it was an orthodox communist party and looked to the Vietnamese Communists for guidance.

It became more anti-intellectual when groups of students who had been studying in France returned to Cambodia. 

The students, including future party leader Pol Pot, had been heavily influenced by the example of the French Communist Party (PCF).
*_

That's right out of wiki. And if you know left wingers, like I know left wingers, many have been heavily influenced by Mao. I would put Jane in that category.


----------



## José

> Originally posted by *Willow Tree*
> That's tough ain't it starkey larkey.. Grace lives in America,, she has a constitutional right to free speech. Fuck Hanoi Jane.



Political Chic, Willow Tree, California Girl, Grace, Caroljo, etc, etc...

If any of you ladies were my wife I would severely restrict your constitutional right to spew bulshit about the Vietnam War *in a prehistoric kind of way*.


----------



## JakeStarkey

tinydancer said:


> JakeStarkey said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> tinydancer said:
> 
> 
> 
> Odd how Hanoi Jane never protested the Khmer Rouge. You know Hanoi Jane the hero speaking out against genocide and war crimes...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That's a good point.  Why don't you check to make sure your statement is correct?
> 
> Otherwise, you are just blowing air out your ass.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You are stupid at times, truly limited.
> 
> Let's try again.
> 
> Show us that Jane Fonda never protested against the Khmer Rouge.
Click to expand...


----------



## tinydancer

Hanoi Jane just doesn't understand the loathing and deep animosity that is directed at her.

She should read her own words more often. 

*  When cases of torture began to emerge among POWs returning to the United States, Fonda called the returning POWs "hypocrites and liars".

 She added, "These were not men who had been tortured. These were not men who had been starved. These were not men who had been brainwashed."[33]*

* On the subject of torture in general, Fonda told The New York Times in 1973, "I'm quite sure that there were incidents of torture ... but the pilots who were saying it was the policy of the Vietnamese and that it was systematic, I believe that's a lie."[34]*

* Fonda further stated that the POWs were "military careerists and professional killers " who are "trying to make themselves look self-righteous, but they are war criminals according to the law".*


----------



## Grace

José;3886852 said:
			
		

> Originally posted by *Willow Tree*
> That's tough ain't it starkey larkey.. Grace lives in America,, she has a constitutional right to free speech. Fuck Hanoi Jane.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Political Chic, Willow Tree, California Girl, Grace, Caroljo, etc, etc...
> 
> If any of you ladies were my wife I would severely restrict your constitutional right to spew bulshit about the Vietnam War *in a prehistoric kind of way*.
Click to expand...


If a frog had wings it wouldn't bump its ass as it hopped. Keep croaking, bubba.


----------



## tinydancer

JakeStarkey said:


> tinydancer said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JakeStarkey said:
> 
> 
> 
> That's a good point.  Why don't you check to make sure your statement is correct?
> 
> Otherwise, you are just blowing air out your ass.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You are stupid at times, truly limited.
> 
> Let's try again.
> 
> Show us that Jane Fonda never protested against the Khmer Rouge.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You show me where she did.
> 
> I can't find any protest related to the Khmer Rouge. And I have her protest page opened from her own website. And I remember those days vividly. I was a liberal.
> 
> And I can't remember jack shit being brought up over the Khmer Rouge.
> 
> You must remember Jane was a proud pro communist supporter. It would make sense that she would support Pol Pot.
> 
> * In a 1970 address at Michigan State University Fonda gave a speech saying; "I would think that if you understood what Communism was, you would hope, you would pray on your knees, that we would someday become communists."*
> 
> That sort of lays it all out there in one sentence.
> 
> It's all at wiki. And no mention of her campaigning against the Communist  Khmer Rouge.
> 
> Nada.
Click to expand...


----------



## Grace

José;3886852 said:
			
		

> Originally posted by *Willow Tree*
> That's tough ain't it starkey larkey.. Grace lives in America,, she has a constitutional right to free speech. Fuck Hanoi Jane.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Political Chic, Willow Tree, California Girl, Grace, Caroljo, etc, etc...
> 
> If any of you ladies were my wife I would severely restrict your constitutional right to spew bulshit about the Vietnam War *in a prehistoric kind of way*.
Click to expand...


Neg'd. In a prehistoric kind of way.


----------



## tinydancer

I found the transcript for the O'Reilly/Ted Turner interview that I wrote about in a previous post. Most interesting and it does link in Fonda.

*  O&#8217;Reilly brought up the holocaust that occurred in Southeast Asia after America abandoned the region to communist dictators, and pointed out that Turner did not use his media empire to shine any light on the roblem:

O&#8217;REILLY: I asked Ms. Fonda, "Didn&#8217;t it ever bother you that after all of your activism and getting America out of Vietnam which it subsequently did in the mid-70s, that three million human beings were slaughtered by the people that you were lionizing, the North Vietnamese and the Khmer Rouge communists, who wouldn&#8217;t have been slaughtered if we&#8217;d stayed, and their skulls were stacked up on top of one another, and I never heard a word from you, Jane Fonda, and I never heard a word from Ted Turner about that," and that, to me, is a good question.

TURNER: You got me. I didn&#8217;t really think about it. You know, it didn&#8217;t make the news very much at the time.

O&#8217;REILLY: No, it didn&#8217;t. And you had a vehicle that you could have had. The revisionist history is what I&#8217;m worried about here. I think America is a noble nation. I think we&#8217;ve made mistakes. I think we tried to have freedom in Vietnam for the South Vietnamese. Unfortunately, the government was corrupt. I don&#8217;t think that was a venal, terrible thing to do. I think we were trying to protect people there. Maybe I&#8217;m wrong. But afterward, there&#8217;s no doubt three million human beings were slaughtered, Jane Fonda said not a word. And to this day, she blames America for everything, and I think it&#8217;s wrong.



Read more: Turner Admits He Ignored Slaughter by Khmer Rouge Communists, Praises Castro Faster Than Bush | NewsBusters.org*


----------



## Againsheila

Sallow said:


> Againsheila said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sallow said:
> 
> 
> 
> Bullshit.
> 
> 
> 
> When did any American President apologize for Vietnam? It was a genocide. And a war crime.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> yeah, she apologized once and now she says she never did anything against our government or our soldiers...ie..it never happened.  How can anyone believe anything she says.  Did you read the OP?
> 
> ." I love my country. I have never done anything to hurt my country or the men and women who have fought and continue to fight for us.""
> 
> Those are not the words of someone who is sorry for her actions.
> 
> You can save the presidents for another thread, this one is about the traitor Jane Fonda.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Jane Fonda did nothing wrong and is no traitor.
> 
> Pointing out genocide and war crimes makes you a hero.
Click to expand...



Please tell me you aren't so stupid!  She went to the Viet Cong.  Our soldiers were dying.  She did publicity photos for the ENEMY!!!!  She called our own soldiers scum.  When the POWs came back she said very bad things about them.  

What "genocide" are you talking about?  Do you know ANYTHING about the Vietnam war?  Do you know ANYONE who served?  Both my father and my brother served in that war.  Have you talked to anyone that served in that war?  Do you know about the women bringing BABIES into the American's camp.  Babies, with bombs in their diapers?  They left the babies and ran.  Our soldiers died with THEIR babies and you say we committed genocide?  What the heck are you talking about?  If we committed genocide, how did they manage to win the war?????  Just try thinking about what you are saying...

What kind of crap have you been fed and why one earth did you believe it?

I wouldn't justify that war/police action for anything, but calling what our soldiers did "genocide" while defending a traitor like Jane Fonda is not what I would call an educated opinion.


----------



## Foxfyre

I lost people I loved in Vietnam.  And have shared just a small bit of the pain and horror experienced by many who didn't die.  Nobody with a brain exalts or wants war.  It is one of the more cruel and insane activities of humankind and there is nothing to commend or defend fighting one.  Unless not fighting it would be worse.

Many thought Korea was senseless.  Many of us thought Vietnam was senseless.  Many of us think we have no business fighting any war that has no clear objective, that we don't have any way to know we won, and/or when we have no intention of winning it.  That was true of Vietnam, and I would not have faulted Jane Fonda for saying it.  Off camera.  To other Americans.

You don't say things like that and worse to the enemy in front of the world's cameras when we have boots on the ground in harm's way.  When we have men being tortured in the enemy concentration camps.  When we have an enemy that is encouraged by public dissent and keeps fighting because if the people aren't behind our army, then the enemy knows they can win.

Jane Fonda has never apologized for that.  Until she does. . . .


----------



## Mr_Rockhead

DaPwnzlord said:


> So she was a traitor for opposing an unjust imperialistic war? Nice.



Nope, Jane Fonda is not a traitor for protesting the war.  Indeed, it is the American way to protest war.  All wars.

Personally, I am a Vietnam veteran who served in combat on a navy destroyer and I (and virtually all of my peers) were also against the war.  In fact, growing up back then with a war going on and the draft hanging over our heads, most of us were against the war  big time.  So get real.

Jane Fonda is a traitor for doing things like going on the air in Vietnam and encouraging our military to mutiny and desert.  She is a traitor to America because she injected herself into the actual fighting of the war and attempted to use her celebrity to affect the outcome of the war (to Americas disadvantage).


----------



## Mr_Rockhead

uscitizen said:


> So much of peoples souls wasted on hatred of a person who never did them any harm at all....
> 
> Who teaches all this hatred to people?  People hate Jane who were mere babies when she did that stuff.
> 
> Politics seems to be very good at keeping fear and hatred alive.



Admittedly, there is still some hatred out there but the situation with Jane Fonda is more like a feeling of justice not done (kinda like with OJ or, more recently, Casey Anthony).

Every time things start to die down, Fonda opens her mouth and then the flood gates re-open.


----------



## Dr Grump

Mr_Rockhead said:


> uscitizen said:
> 
> 
> 
> So much of peoples souls wasted on hatred of a person who never did them any harm at all....
> 
> Who teaches all this hatred to people?  People hate Jane who were mere babies when she did that stuff.
> 
> Politics seems to be very good at keeping fear and hatred alive.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Admittedly, there is still some hatred out there but the situation with Jane Fonda is more like a feeling of justice not done (kinda like with OJ or, more recently, Casey Anthony).
> 
> Every time things start to die down, Fonda opens her mouth and then the flood gates re-open.
Click to expand...


Now you're comparing Fonda to Simpson and Anthony? Pathetic...


----------



## Mr_Rockhead

Dr Grump said:


> Mr_Rockhead said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> uscitizen said:
> 
> 
> 
> So much of peoples souls wasted on hatred of a person who never did them any harm at all....
> 
> Who teaches all this hatred to people?  People hate Jane who were mere babies when she did that stuff.
> 
> Politics seems to be very good at keeping fear and hatred alive.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Admittedly, there is still some hatred out there but the situation with Jane Fonda is more like a feeling of justice not done (kinda like with OJ or, more recently, Casey Anthony).
> 
> Every time things start to die down, Fonda opens her mouth and then the flood gates re-open.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Now you're comparing Fonda to Simpson and Anthony? Pathetic...
Click to expand...


Nope, I am just using them as an example as to why its not always about hatred (as some keep claiming).

There are a lot of people who will never give OJ or Casey a pass just like there are a lot of people who will never give Fonda a pass and hate does not really come into play with most of them.

To many, it's simply a matter of wanting to see justice done.


----------



## Dr Grump

Mr_Rockhead said:


> Dr Grump said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mr_Rockhead said:
> 
> 
> 
> Admittedly, there is still some hatred out there but the situation with Jane Fonda is more like a feeling of justice not done (kinda like with OJ or, more recently, Casey Anthony).
> 
> Every time things start to die down, Fonda opens her mouth and then the flood gates re-open.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Now you're comparing Fonda to Simpson and Anthony? Pathetic...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Nope, I am just using them as an example as to why its not always about hatred (as some keep claiming).
> 
> There are a lot of people who will never give OJ or Casey a pass just like there are a lot of people who will never give Fonda a pass and hate does not really come into play with most of them.
> 
> To many, it's simply a matter of wanting to see justice done.
Click to expand...


What justice needs doing as far as Fonda is concerned? I don't agree with how she did what she did (but agree with some of her points), but she is not a traitor. If so, she wasn't charged....


----------



## JakeStarkey

tinydancer said:


> JakeStarkey said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> tinydancer said:
> 
> 
> 
> You are stupid at times, truly limited.
> 
> Let's try again.
> 
> Show us that Jane Fonda never protested against the Khmer Rouge.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You show me where she did.
> 
> I can't find any protest related to the Khmer Rouge. And I have her protest page opened from her own website. And I remember those days vividly. I was a liberal.
> 
> And I can't remember jack shit being brought up over the Khmer Rouge.
> 
> You must remember Jane was a proud pro communist supporter. It would make sense that she would support Pol Pot.
> 
> * In a 1970 address at Michigan State University Fonda gave a speech saying; "I would think that if you understood what Communism was, you would hope, you would pray on your knees, that we would someday become communists."*
> 
> That sort of lays it all out there in one sentence.
> 
> It's all at wiki. And no mention of her campaigning against the Communist  Khmer Rouge.
> 
> Nada.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Your assertion, your requirement to prove it, not mine to disprove it until you have some evidence.  And you ignore that the North Vietnamese put down the Khymer Rouge.
> 
> Jane Fonda did the wrong thing, in my opinion.  However, despite what the less nuanced thinking displayed above in the thread reveal, she did not commit treason.
Click to expand...


----------



## WillowTree

JakeStarkey said:


> WillowTree said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JakeStarkey said:
> 
> 
> 
> Get a life, Grace.  Sheesh.  I am a veteran, a lifetime member of the DAV.  If I can let it go, I really don't want to hear it from you.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That's tough ain't it starkey larkey.. Grace lives in America,, she has a constitutional right to free speech. Fuck Hanoi Jane.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> And Moscow Mollie spittles across the page.  Grace has the right to be told she is an ungrateful American hysteriac.  She can take the heat, or she can take the beat with her fat little feat.
Click to expand...


Except if you tell her that it makes you a liar. Fuck Hanoi Jane.


----------



## JakeStarkey

WillowTree said:


> JakeStarkey said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> WillowTree said:
> 
> 
> 
> That's tough ain't it starkey larkey.. Grace lives in America,, she has a constitutional right to free speech. Fuck Hanoi Jane.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And Moscow Mollie spittles across the page.  Grace has the right to be told she is an ungrateful American hysteriac.  She can take the heat, or she can take the beat with her fat little feat.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Except if you tell her that it makes you a liar. Fuck Hanoi Jane.
Click to expand...


You have the right to complain, we all do, but I have to right to tell you are wrong.

You are wrong.


----------



## Sallow

Patrick2 said:


> Sallow said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> tinydancer said:
> 
> 
> 
> Odd how Hanoi Jane never protested the Khmer Rouge. You know Hanoi Jane the hero speaking out against genocide and war crimes...
> 
> Could it be because they were Communists?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Naw.
> 
> The Vietnamese took em out.
> 
> Wonder if Ol' Tricky Dick was proud he once supported them.
> 
> Seems conservatives could give a shit.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Let's be clear here.  The vietnamese didn't topple the khmer rouge regime because they had a tender concern for the 1/3 of the population being killed by them, they did it because after the end of the vietnam war, the khmer rouge attacked vietnam.  As for Nixon, he ended the war started by democrats.
Click to expand...


Democrats? That's arguable. Eisenhower stopped a general election that would have seen a victory for Ho Chi Mihn.

And it doesn't matter "why' they took the Khmer Rouge out..they took them out. And Nixon ended the war after expanding it and killing over a million Vietnamese.

And he didn't end it because he wanted to, he ended it because of massive protests.

Vietnam has pretty much done right by it's people..it's got a vibrant and fast growing economy.  Surprisingly enough..it didn't hold any malice against America either..for what was..a crime and a genocide.


----------



## R.D.

José;3886852 said:
			
		

> Political Chic, Willow Tree, California Girl, Grace, Caroljo, etc, etc...
> 
> If any of you ladies were my wife I would severely restrict your constitutional right to spew bulshit about the Vietnam War *in a prehistoric kind of way*.



I have my doubts   a lady would be your wife.


----------



## tinydancer

Sallow said:


> Patrick2 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sallow said:
> 
> 
> 
> Naw.
> 
> The Vietnamese took em out.
> 
> Wonder if Ol' Tricky Dick was proud he once supported them.
> 
> Seems conservatives could give a shit.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Let's be clear here.  The vietnamese didn't topple the khmer rouge regime because they had a tender concern for the 1/3 of the population being killed by them, they did it because after the end of the vietnam war, the khmer rouge attacked vietnam.  As for Nixon, he ended the war started by democrats.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Democrats? That's arguable. Eisenhower stopped a general election that would have seen a victory for Ho Chi Mihn.
> 
> And it doesn't matter "why' they took the Khmer Rouge out..they took them out. And Nixon ended the war after expanding it and killing over a million Vietnamese.
> 
> And he didn't end it because he wanted to, he ended it because of massive protests.
> 
> Vietnam has pretty much done right by it's people..it's got a vibrant and fast growing economy.  Surprisingly enough..it didn't hold any malice against America either..for what was..a crime and a genocide.
Click to expand...




it's not arguable whatsoever that Democrats sent in troops. Eisenhower only had advisors in place.

Here's a BBC timeline so we can start to talk TRUTH and not revisionist history.

* A chronology of key events:

1930 - Ho Chi Minh founds the Indochinese Communist Party (ICP). 

1941 - ICP organises a guerrilla force, Viet Minh, in response to invasion by Japan during World War II. 

1945 - The Viet Minh seizes power. Ho Chi Minh announces Vietnam's independence. 

1946 - French forces attack Viet Minh in Haiphong in November, sparking the war of resistance against the colonial power. 

1950 - Democratic Republic of Vietnam is recognised by China and USSR. 

1954 - Viet Minh forces attack an isolated French military outpost in the town of Dien Bien Phu. The attempt to take the outpost lasts two months, during which time the French government agrees to peace talks in Geneva. At the Geneva conference, Vietnam is split into North and South at the 17th Parallel. 

1956 - South Vietnamese President Ngo Dinh Diem begins campaign against political dissidents. 

1957 - Beginning of Communist insurgency in the South. 

1959 - Weapons and men from North Vietnam begin infiltrating the South. 

1960 - American aid to Diem increased. 

1962 - Number of US military advisors in South Vietnam rises to 12,000. 

1963 - Viet Cong, the communist guerrillas operating in South Vietnam, defeat units of the ARVN, the South Vietnamese Army. President Diem is overthrown. 

US enters the war  NOW LET'S SEE....WHO WAS PRESIDENT?

1964 - US destroyer allegedly attacked by North Vietnamese patrol boats. This triggers start of pre-planned American bombing raids on North Vietnam. 

1965 - 200,000 American combat troops arrive in South Vietnam. 

1966 - US troop numbers in Vietnam rise to 400,000, then to 500,000 the following year. 


1968 - Tet Offensive - a combined assault by Viet Cong and the North Vietnamese army on US positions - begins. More than 500 civilians die in the US massacre at My Lai. 

1969 - Ho Chi Minh dies. President Nixon begins to reduce US ground troops in Vietnam as domestic public opposition to the war grows. 

1970 - Nixon's national security advisor, Henry Kissinger, and Le Duc Tho, for the Hanoi government, start talks in Paris. 

1973 - Ceasefire agreement in Paris, US troop pull-out completed by March. 

1975 - North Vietnamese troops invade South Vietnam and take control of the whole country after South Vietnamese President Duong Van Minh surrenders. 
*


----------



## JakeStarkey

Eisenhower sent in military advisers and trainers immediately after the division in 1954.  He increased those numbers  and the $$$ over the years until he left early in 1961. He encouraged JFK to continue it and expand.

I encourage you to know your history, tinydancer.


----------



## wayne

It has been said how great things turned out for the people of Vietnam, well that depends:  

The people Vietnam are not free they are slaves. They do not control their government, their government controls them without their consent. If they wish to be slaves that is fine as long as  they do not threaten my freedom  and the freedom of my people. 

 Perhaps they are meant to be slaves; perhaps not all people are capable of freedom; that is what my ancestors believed.

If you want to be a communist slave enjoy your slavery, but if you are thinking of imposing it on my people you can expect war  or at least a brutal insurgency.

Contrary to what you might think I am not a conservative but a moderate; however, I found during the Cold War  that conservatives were the best allies of freedom. 

Live free or die. Why do liberals hate that motto?


----------



## uscitizen

Treason?  Now the Reagan administration commited treason.  Govt employees dealing weapons to an avowed enemy of the USA.


----------



## José

wayne said:


> It has been said how great things turned out for the people of Vietnam, well that depends:
> 
> The people Vietnam are not free they are slaves. They do not control their government, their government controls them without their consent. If they wish to be slaves that is fine as long as  they do not threaten my freedom  and the freedom of my people.
> 
> Perhaps they are meant to be slaves; perhaps not all people are capable of freedom; that is what my ancestors believed.
> 
> If you want to be a communist slave enjoy your slavery, but if you are thinking of imposing it on my people you can expect war  or at least a brutal insurgency.
> 
> Contrary to what you might think I am not a conservative but a moderate; however, I found during the Cold War  that conservatives were the best allies of freedom.
> 
> Live free or die. Why do liberals hate that motto?



American policymakers thought *democratic elections in Vietnam would result in an 80% vote for Ho Chi Minh* and therefore blocked elections in the south of the country.

*democratic elections in Vietnam would result in an 80% vote for Ho Chi Minh*

*democratic elections in Vietnam would result in an 80% vote for Ho Chi Minh*

*democratic elections in Vietnam would result in an 80% vote for Ho Chi Minh*

*democratic elections in Vietnam would result in an 80% vote for Ho Chi Minh*

Background to the Vietnam War - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


----------



## hortysir

MeBelle60 said:


> hortysir said:
> 
> 
> 
> The note
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And that's all that needs to be said.
Click to expand...

Bears repeating!

What say Sunni, and the list of thankers of this note?


Sunni Man said:


> First of all let me qualify by saying that I am a Vietnam vet.
> 
> Secondly, history has proven Jane Fonda to be correct in her assessment of the United States involvement of the war.
> 
> Last, we need more patriotic people like her to stand up and fight against government injustice and abuse.



The list of thankers to this post proves the absurdity.....


----------



## tinydancer

JakeStarkey said:


> Eisenhower sent in military advisers and trainers immediately after the division in 1954.  He increased those numbers  and the $$$ over the years until he left early in 1961. He encouraged JFK to continue it and expand.
> 
> I encourage you to know your history, tinydancer.



I do know my history. I never denied that Eisenhower had military advisers in place and South Vietnam was receiving financial assistance. This was smack dab in the middle of the cold war and it meant everything *at that time* to prevent communist expansion.

I'm the one that put up the time line for crying out loud.

But the key to the Vietnam WAR was that troops were deployed in *1964.*

Hello? Who was President? What party did he belong to?


----------



## Foxfyre

tinydancer said:


> JakeStarkey said:
> 
> 
> 
> Eisenhower sent in military advisers and trainers immediately after the division in 1954.  He increased those numbers  and the $$$ over the years until he left early in 1961. He encouraged JFK to continue it and expand.
> 
> I encourage you to know your history, tinydancer.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I do know my history. I never denied that Eisenhower had military advisers in place and South Vietnam was receiveing financial assistance. This was smack dab in the middle of the cold war and it meant everything *at that time* to prevent communist expansion.
> 
> I'm the one that put up the time line for crying out loud.
> 
> But the key to the Vietnam WAR was that troops were deployed in *1964.*
> 
> Hello? Who was President? What party did he belong to?
Click to expand...


You're a relative (and welcome) newcomer to USMB td, and the timeline you posted is instructive for anybody not totally ideologically blinded.  But unfortunately you're addressing our Jakey here.  He's a sweet, lovable, caring, and funny guy when you get him off the political threads.  But unfortunately, he doesn't read what is posted carefully and his political perspectives, while predictably paradoxical, and occasionally nonsensical, are, at best, different.  (I have long suspected he is intentionally pulling everybody's collective leg.)


----------



## tinydancer

Foxfyre said:


> tinydancer said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JakeStarkey said:
> 
> 
> 
> Eisenhower sent in military advisers and trainers immediately after the division in 1954.  He increased those numbers  and the $$$ over the years until he left early in 1961. He encouraged JFK to continue it and expand.
> 
> I encourage you to know your history, tinydancer.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I do know my history. I never denied that Eisenhower had military advisers in place and South Vietnam was receiveing financial assistance. This was smack dab in the middle of the cold war and it meant everything *at that time* to prevent communist expansion.
> 
> I'm the one that put up the time line for crying out loud.
> 
> But the key to the Vietnam WAR was that troops were deployed in *1964.*
> 
> Hello? Who was President? What party did he belong to?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You're a relative (and welcome) newcomer to USMB td, and the timeline you posted is instructive for anybody not totally ideologically blinded.  But unfortunately you're addressing our Jakey here.  He's a sweet, lovable, caring, and funny guy when you get him off the political threads.  But unfortunately, he doesn't read what is posted carefully and his political perspectives, while predictably paradoxical, and occasionally nonsensical, are, at best, different.  (I have long suspected he is intentionally pulling everybody's collective leg.)
Click to expand...


Thanks for the heads up. Appreciated.


----------



## wayne

According to the US Constitution it is treason( for a citizen of the U S) to provide aid and comfort to the enemy. Jane Fonda provided the enemy with aid ( propaganda) .  Jane Fonda is a trader.

Also, democratic elections in a communist country, what an oxymoron.


----------



## JakeStarkey

tinydancer said:


> Foxfyre said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> tinydancer said:
> 
> 
> 
> I do know my history. I never denied that Eisenhower had military advisers in place and South Vietnam was receiveing financial assistance. This was smack dab in the middle of the cold war and it meant everything *at that time* to prevent communist expansion.
> 
> I'm the one that put up the time line for crying out loud.
> 
> But the key to the Vietnam WAR was that troops were deployed in *1964.*
> 
> Hello? Who was President? What party did he belong to?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You're a relative (and welcome) newcomer to USMB td, and the timeline you posted is instructive for anybody not totally ideologically blinded.  But unfortunately you're addressing our Jakey here.  He's a sweet, lovable, caring, and funny guy when you get him off the political threads.  But unfortunately, he doesn't read what is posted carefully and his political perspectives, while predictably paradoxical, and occasionally nonsensical, are, at best, different.  (I have long suspected he is intentionally pulling everybody's collective leg.)
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Thanks for the heads up. Appreciated.
Click to expand...


I am the above personally, for sure, and I thank Foxfyre.  My political comments are always germane, in context, and dismantle the extremes.  Foxfyre is one of the finest folks I have ever known in the board world, but her politics are hard right agenda-driven, and politically she views the world between those blinders.  That does not dismiss her humane care for everyone.

She will invite you to the Coffee Shop, inevitably, so go on over and meet everybody in a very relaxed, nurturing, and supportive setting.


----------



## uscitizen

So we cannot provide aid or comfort to the enemy?

Such as in weapons in Iran Contra?


----------



## JakeStarkey

I knew many officers and NCOs that left the U.S. military because of Iran-Contra.

They all felt betrayed by Reagan.  They were.


----------



## hortysir

Reagan's dead and Fonda won't be soon enough


----------



## JakeStarkey

Death is the great leveler, for sure, and we all stride toward it.


----------



## wayne

hortysir said:


> Reagan's dead and Fonda won't be soon enough




The world owes Ronald Reagan a debt of gratitude; he won the Cold War and saved untold generations from slavery.


----------



## frazzledgear

uscitizen said:


> Get a life!  WTF care about what jane Fonda says?




What are you?  Like 16?  Some of us are older and don't pretend the only important stuff that happens occurred today.  We remember good and well the incredible damage this TRAITOR did to the morale of our soldiers and to this nation during wartime.  She was a major player in getting other people to do awful things to returning vets -people who were DRAFTED and not even there by choice but met upon their return with jeers, thrown bottles (a lefty favorite anytime) and being spit upon.   Fucking bitch.  Hope she rots in hell and she absolutely should go down in history books as the traitor she is.  This female, when asked about the fact that after getting her way and being instrumental in destroying support for the war and following the withdrawal of US forces - 4 MILLION civilians were slaughtered by the communists -responded by saying it wasn't important because we shouldn't have been there at all.  God save me from ever being the  cold-hearted, inhumane monster that Jane Fonda is that I could EVER just dismiss out of hand as UNIMPORTANT the fact 4 MILLION people were murdered, much less murdered after I played such a pivotal role in the sequence of events that resulted in those murders.  

Jane Fonda should never have been able to get a good night's sleep for the rest of her life -but that presumes the bitch has a conscience.  And she doesn't.  She has stated numerous times she has no regrets about what she did -or the fact it resulted in the mass murder of 4 MILLION people.


----------



## MeBelle

hortysir said:


> MeBelle60 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> hortysir said:
> 
> 
> 
> The note
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And that's all that needs to be said.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Bears repeating!
Click to expand...


Makes one wonder if one needs to be rude to be heard!


----------



## Patrick2

uscitizen said:


> So we cannot provide aid or comfort to the enemy?
> 
> Such as in weapons in Iran Contra?



We aren't and haven't been at war with iran, Megabrain.


----------



## Mr_Rockhead

Dr Grump said:


> Mr_Rockhead said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dr Grump said:
> 
> 
> 
> Now you're comparing Fonda to Simpson and Anthony? Pathetic...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Nope, I am just using them as an example as to why its not always about hatred (as some keep claiming).
> 
> There are a lot of people who will never give OJ or Casey a pass just like there are a lot of people who will never give Fonda a pass and hate does not really come into play with most of them.
> 
> To many, it's simply a matter of wanting to see justice done.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> What justice needs doing as far as Fonda is concerned? I don't agree with how she did what she did (but agree with some of her points), but she is not a traitor. If so, she wasn't charged....
Click to expand...


The fact that she was never charged is probably what sticks the most in peoples craws.

Indeed, much of the lingering hatred actually stems from the fact that our spineless politicians opted to pander to the ever-increasing, anti-war voting bloc rather than pursue justice for the USA this matter.


----------



## Mr_Rockhead

uscitizen said:


> So we cannot provide aid or comfort to the enemy?...



Nope.

If you don&#8217;t like the war, your only option is to stand on the sidelines and protest it.

And, if you decide to take part in it, you better be supporting our side or you better renounce your citizenship and join the other side.

We are talking about war here and it should be taken seriously.


----------



## JakeStarkey

Let's get to Sanity Island and up on Reality Rock.

No declared war?  No treason.


----------



## Foxfyre

Whether the war is declared or not, the men and women our country send to fight it are at just as much risk, bleed blood that is just as red, lose limbs and eyes just as horribly, and die just as dead.  Their families are just as stressed and just as grieved.

ANYBODY who puts them at greater risk by consoling and encouraging the enemy is their enemy and my enemy.   And traitor seems to be an apt characterization.


----------



## Sallow

wayne said:


> hortysir said:
> 
> 
> 
> Reagan's dead and Fonda won't be soon enough
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The world owes Ronald Reagan a debt of gratitude; he won the Cold War and saved untold generations from slavery.
Click to expand...


He committed Treason, violated the United States Constitution, plunged this nation into massive debt, fostered several government bailouts, and "won" the Cold War by bribing the Soviets.


----------



## Sallow

frazzledgear said:


> uscitizen said:
> 
> 
> 
> Get a life!  WTF care about what jane Fonda says?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What are you?  Like 16?  Some of us are older and don't pretend the only important stuff that happens occurred today.  We remember good and well the incredible damage this TRAITOR did to the morale of our soldiers and to this nation during wartime.  She was a major player in getting other people to do awful things to returning vets -people who were DRAFTED and not even there by choice but met upon their return with jeers, thrown bottles (a lefty favorite anytime) and being spit upon.   Fucking bitch.  Hope she rots in hell and she absolutely should go down in history books as the traitor she is.  This female, when asked about the fact that after getting her way and being instrumental in destroying support for the war and following the withdrawal of US forces -* 4 MILLION civilians were slaughtered by the communists -*responded by saying it wasn't important because we shouldn't have been there at all.  God save me from ever being the  cold-hearted, inhumane monster that Jane Fonda is that I could EVER just dismiss out of hand as UNIMPORTANT the fact 4 MILLION people were murdered, much less murdered after I played such a pivotal role in the sequence of events that resulted in those murders.
> 
> Jane Fonda should never have been able to get a good night's sleep for the rest of her life -but that presumes the bitch has a conscience.  And she doesn't.  She has stated numerous times she has no regrets about what she did -or the fact it resulted in the mass murder of 4 MILLION people.
Click to expand...


No they weren't. They were "slaughtered" by Americans.

Like this Conservative hero..

Lt. Calley.

William Calley - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
My Lai Massacre - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

America commited a war crime and a genocide in Vietnam. There is no way around that.

Calley's men herded people into ditches and machined gunned them to death. They gang raped little girls. And he got away with the whole thing. It wasn't an isolated incident either.

Is this the fault of our troops? Not at all. They were poorly commanded by people in Washington. And they were pawns in a massive bloody crime of epic proportions.

Are Conservatives mad at this at all? Absolutely not. In fact..they did it again in Iraq. While the atrocities were kept to a minimum..it was a war crime nonetheless.


----------



## konradv

wayne said:


> hortysir said:
> 
> 
> 
> Reagan's dead and Fonda won't be soon enough
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The world owes Ronald Reagan a debt of gratitude; he won the Cold War and saved untold generations from slavery.
Click to expand...


Ronnie got lucky that he had someone like Gorbachev in the Kremlin.  If he'd tried his agenda on the old-time hardliners, we could have had WW III.  In actuality the winning of the Cold War was a 45 year effort by people of both parties.  Why not credit Carter?  He really got the ball rolling by supporting Afghan freedom fighters and getting the Soviets embroiled in their own Viet Nam.  All Reagan-Bush did was ignore the country after the Soviets left, allowing the Taliban anf the Al Qaeda to take root.  Gee thanks, Ronnie!!!


----------



## JakeStarkey

Foxfyre said:


> Whether the war is declared or not, the men and women our country send to fight it are at just as much risk, bleed blood that is just as red, lose limbs and eyes just as horribly, and die just as dead.  Their families are just as stressed and just as grieved.
> 
> ANYBODY who puts them at greater risk by consoling and encouraging the enemy is their enemy and my enemy.   And traitor seems to be an apt characterization.



I have no doubt that is true.  However, unless war is declared, Fonda did not commit treason.


----------



## Sallow

konradv said:


> wayne said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> hortysir said:
> 
> 
> 
> Reagan's dead and Fonda won't be soon enough
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The world owes Ronald Reagan a debt of gratitude; he won the Cold War and saved untold generations from slavery.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Ronnie got lucky that he had someone like Gorbachev in the Kremlin.  If he'd tried his agenda on the old-time hardliners, we could have had WW III.  In actuality the winning of the Cold War was a 45 year effort by people of both parties.  Why not credit Carter?  He really got the ball rolling by supporting Afghan freedom fighters and getting the Soviets embroiled in their own Viet Nam.  All Reagan-Bush did was ignore the country after the Soviets left, allowing the Taliban anf the Al Qaeda to take root.  Gee thanks, Ronnie!!!
Click to expand...


The Wheat embargo had a far worse effect.

Carter's support was for harrassment. Ronald Reagan and George HW Bush upped that support by a huge magnitude and wanted to get the Russians expelled from Afghanistan.


----------



## Foxfyre

JakeStarkey said:


> Foxfyre said:
> 
> 
> 
> Whether the war is declared or not, the men and women our country send to fight it are at just as much risk, bleed blood that is just as red, lose limbs and eyes just as horribly, and die just as dead.  Their families are just as stressed and just as grieved.
> 
> ANYBODY who puts them at greater risk by consoling and encouraging the enemy is their enemy and my enemy.   And traitor seems to be an apt characterization.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I have no doubt that is true.  However, unless war is declared, Fonda did not commit treason.
Click to expand...




> *trea·son
> &#8211;noun *
> 1. the offense of acting to overthrow one's government or to harm or kill its sovereign.
> 2. a violation of allegiance to one's sovereign or to one's state.
> 3. the betrayal of a trust or confidence; breach of faith; treachery.


Source:  Dictonary.com

And the legal definition:



> TREASON
> This word imports a betraying, treachery, or breach of allegiance.
> 
> The Constitution of the United States, Art. III, defines treason against the United States to consist only in levying war against them, or in adhering to their enemies, giving them aid or comfort. This offence is punished with death. By the same article of the Constitution, no person shall be convicted of treason, unless on the testimony of two witnesses to the same overt act, or on confession in open court.
> http://www.lectlaw.com/def2/t103.htm



I don't see anything in that to suggest that a war has to be declared in order to commit treason.  I am pretty sure there is nothing in U.S. law to suggest that either.


----------



## Warrior102

Has John Kerry been brought up yet?

If not - he should.

Woops - I just did.


----------



## Sallow

Foxfyre said:


> JakeStarkey said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Foxfyre said:
> 
> 
> 
> Whether the war is declared or not, the men and women our country send to fight it are at just as much risk, bleed blood that is just as red, lose limbs and eyes just as horribly, and die just as dead.  Their families are just as stressed and just as grieved.
> 
> ANYBODY who puts them at greater risk by consoling and encouraging the enemy is their enemy and my enemy.   And traitor seems to be an apt characterization.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I have no doubt that is true.  However, unless war is declared, Fonda did not commit treason.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *trea·son
> noun *
> 1. the offense of acting to overthrow one's government or to harm or kill its sovereign.
> 2. a violation of allegiance to one's sovereign or to one's state.
> 3. the betrayal of a trust or confidence; breach of faith; treachery.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Source:  Dictonary.com
> 
> And the legal definition:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> TREASON
> This word imports a betraying, treachery, or breach of allegiance.
> 
> The Constitution of the United States, Art. III, defines treason against the United States to consist only in levying war against them, or in adhering to their enemies, giving them aid or comfort. This offence is punished with death. By the same article of the Constitution, no person shall be convicted of treason, unless on the testimony of two witnesses to the same overt act, or on confession in open court.
> Legal Definition of Treason
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I don't see anything in that to suggest that a war has to be declared in order to commit treason.  I am pretty sure there is nothing in U.S. law to suggest that either.
Click to expand...


Reagan fulfilled 2 and 3 of your definition. Does he qualify too?


----------



## JakeStarkey

Foxfyre said:


> JakeStarkey said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Foxfyre said:
> 
> 
> 
> Whether the war is declared or not, the men and women our country send to fight it are at just as much risk, bleed blood that is just as red, lose limbs and eyes just as horribly, and die just as dead.  Their families are just as stressed and just as grieved.
> 
> ANYBODY who puts them at greater risk by consoling and encouraging the enemy is their enemy and my enemy.   And traitor seems to be an apt characterization.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I have no doubt that is true.  However, unless war is declared, Fonda did not commit treason.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *trea·son
> noun *
> 1. the offense of acting to overthrow one's government or to harm or kill its sovereign.
> 2. a violation of allegiance to one's sovereign or to one's state.
> 3. the betrayal of a trust or confidence; breach of faith; treachery.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Source:  Dictonary.com
> 
> And the legal definition:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> TREASON
> This word imports a betraying, treachery, or breach of allegiance.
> 
> The Constitution of the United States, Art. III, defines treason against the United States to consist only in levying war against them, or in adhering to their enemies, giving them aid or comfort. This offence is punished with death. By the same article of the Constitution, no person shall be convicted of treason, unless on the testimony of two witnesses to the same overt act, or on confession in open court.
> Legal Definition of Treason
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I don't see anything in that to suggest that a war has to be declared in order to commit treason.  I am pretty sure there is nothing in U.S. law to suggest that either.
Click to expand...


Are you talking about the War clause in the Constitution?  Yes, you are.  Sustained.


----------



## Warrior102

Sallow said:


> frazzledgear said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> uscitizen said:
> 
> 
> 
> Get a life!  WTF care about what jane Fonda says?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What are you?  Like 16?  Some of us are older and don't pretend the only important stuff that happens occurred today.  We remember good and well the incredible damage this TRAITOR did to the morale of our soldiers and to this nation during wartime.  She was a major player in getting other people to do awful things to returning vets -people who were DRAFTED and not even there by choice but met upon their return with jeers, thrown bottles (a lefty favorite anytime) and being spit upon.   Fucking bitch.  Hope she rots in hell and she absolutely should go down in history books as the traitor she is.  This female, when asked about the fact that after getting her way and being instrumental in destroying support for the war and following the withdrawal of US forces -* 4 MILLION civilians were slaughtered by the communists -*responded by saying it wasn't important because we shouldn't have been there at all.  God save me from ever being the  cold-hearted, inhumane monster that Jane Fonda is that I could EVER just dismiss out of hand as UNIMPORTANT the fact 4 MILLION people were murdered, much less murdered after I played such a pivotal role in the sequence of events that resulted in those murders.
> 
> Jane Fonda should never have been able to get a good night's sleep for the rest of her life -but that presumes the bitch has a conscience.  And she doesn't.  She has stated numerous times she has no regrets about what she did -or the fact it resulted in the mass murder of 4 MILLION people.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No they weren't. They were "slaughtered" by Americans.
> 
> Like this Conservative hero..
> 
> Lt. Calley.
> 
> William Calley - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> My Lai Massacre - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> America commited a war crime and a genocide in Vietnam. There is no way around that.
> 
> Calley's men herded people into ditches and machined gunned them to death. They gang raped little girls. And he got away with the whole thing. It wasn't an isolated incident either.
> 
> Is this the fault of our troops? Not at all. They were poorly commanded by people in Washington. And they were pawns in a massive bloody crime of epic proportions.
> 
> Are Conservatives mad at this at all? Absolutely not. In fact..they did it again in Iraq. While the atrocities were kept to a minimum..it was a war crime nonetheless.
Click to expand...


Lt. Calley was a conservative hero? Where did you get that revelation. 

Having personally served 20+ years in the military - Lt. Calley, if he was to be judged on his political position - would be tagged as a Liberal. 

Inexperienced, his men had no respect for him, snot-nosed college puke with no military bearing, hated universally. Sounds Liberal to me. 

This is the type of "officer" real Americans in the field would frag, with smiles on their faces.


----------



## Foxfyre

JakeStarkey said:


> Foxfyre said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JakeStarkey said:
> 
> 
> 
> I have no doubt that is true.  However, unless war is declared, Fonda did not commit treason.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Source:  Dictonary.com
> 
> And the legal definition:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> TREASON
> This word imports a betraying, treachery, or breach of allegiance.
> 
> The Constitution of the United States, Art. III, defines treason against the United States to consist only in levying war against them, or in adhering to their enemies, giving them aid or comfort. This offence is punished with death. By the same article of the Constitution, no person shall be convicted of treason, unless on the testimony of two witnesses to the same overt act, or on confession in open court.
> Legal Definition of Treason
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I don't see anything in that to suggest that a war has to be declared in order to commit treason.  I am pretty sure there is nothing in U.S. law to suggest that either.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Are you talking about the War clause in the Constitution?  Yes, you are.  Sustained.
Click to expand...


Jakey, God love you, I can't tell if you are conceding the point or think you have disputed it.


----------



## Sallow

Warrior102 said:


> Sallow said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> frazzledgear said:
> 
> 
> 
> What are you?  Like 16?  Some of us are older and don't pretend the only important stuff that happens occurred today.  We remember good and well the incredible damage this TRAITOR did to the morale of our soldiers and to this nation during wartime.  She was a major player in getting other people to do awful things to returning vets -people who were DRAFTED and not even there by choice but met upon their return with jeers, thrown bottles (a lefty favorite anytime) and being spit upon.   Fucking bitch.  Hope she rots in hell and she absolutely should go down in history books as the traitor she is.  This female, when asked about the fact that after getting her way and being instrumental in destroying support for the war and following the withdrawal of US forces -* 4 MILLION civilians were slaughtered by the communists -*responded by saying it wasn't important because we shouldn't have been there at all.  God save me from ever being the  cold-hearted, inhumane monster that Jane Fonda is that I could EVER just dismiss out of hand as UNIMPORTANT the fact 4 MILLION people were murdered, much less murdered after I played such a pivotal role in the sequence of events that resulted in those murders.
> 
> Jane Fonda should never have been able to get a good night's sleep for the rest of her life -but that presumes the bitch has a conscience.  And she doesn't.  She has stated numerous times she has no regrets about what she did -or the fact it resulted in the mass murder of 4 MILLION people.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No they weren't. They were "slaughtered" by Americans.
> 
> Like this Conservative hero..
> 
> Lt. Calley.
> 
> William Calley - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> My Lai Massacre - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> America commited a war crime and a genocide in Vietnam. There is no way around that.
> 
> Calley's men herded people into ditches and machined gunned them to death. They gang raped little girls. And he got away with the whole thing. It wasn't an isolated incident either.
> 
> Is this the fault of our troops? Not at all. They were poorly commanded by people in Washington. And they were pawns in a massive bloody crime of epic proportions.
> 
> Are Conservatives mad at this at all? Absolutely not. In fact..they did it again in Iraq. While the atrocities were kept to a minimum..it was a war crime nonetheless.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Lt. Calley was a conservative hero? Where did you get that revelation.
> 
> Having personally served 20+ years in the military - Lt. Calley, if he was to be judged on his political position - would be tagged as a Liberal.
> 
> Inexperienced, his men had no respect for him, snot-nosed college puke with no military bearing, hated universally. Sounds Liberal to me.
> 
> This is the type of "officer" real Americans in the field would frag, with smiles on their faces.
Click to expand...


Nixon basically got his ass out of the fire.

Did you read Calley's biography?



> William Calley was born in Miami, Florida. His father was a United States Navy veteran of World War II. Calley graduated from Miami Edison High School in Miami and then attended Palm Beach Junior College in 1963. He dropped out in 1964 after receiving unsatisfactory grades, consisting of two Cs, one D, and four Fs.[3] Calley then worked at a variety of jobs, including as a bellhop, dishwasher, salesman, insurance appraiser and train conductor.[4] While living in San Francisco in 1966, Calley received a letter from the Selective Service board requesting reevaluation of his medical condition. While attempting to return to Miami, his car broke down in Albuquerque, New Mexico, where Calley then reported to a recruiting official, enlisting in the U.S. Army on July 26, 1966.[4]
> 
> Later in 1974, President Nixon tacitly issued Calley a limited Presidential Pardon. Consequently, his general court-martial conviction and dismissal from the U.S. Army were upheld, however, the prison sentence and subsequent parole obligations were commuted to time served, leaving Calley a free man.[14]
> 
> Sometime in 2005 or 2006, Calley divorced his wife Penny, whose father had employed him at the V.V. Vick jewelry store in Columbus since 1975, and moved to downtown Atlanta to live with his son, William Laws Calley III.[15] In October 2007, Calley agreed to be interviewed by the UK newspaper the Daily Mail to discuss the massacre, saying, *"Meet me in the lobby of the nearest bank at opening time tomorrow, and give me a certified check for $25,000, *then I'll talk to you for precisely one hour."[16] When the journalist "showed up at the appointed hour, armed not with a check but a list of questions," Calley left.



Military family..dropped out of college..followed orders without question..pardoned by Nixon and ultimately wanting to profit..

Sounds pretty conservative to me.


----------



## hortysir

MeBelle60 said:


> hortysir said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MeBelle60 said:
> 
> 
> 
> And that's all that needs to be said.
> 
> 
> 
> Bears repeating!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Makes one wonder if one needs to be rude to be heard!
Click to expand...


Naah...
They hear it. 
It interferes with their reality, s'all


----------



## José

> Originally posted by *wayne*
> Also, democratic elections in a communist country, what an oxymoron.



Since when a political leader has to be democratic to enjoy massive support from his people?

Washington, Jefferson, etc... created a racial dictatorship in North America that waged war against the native people of the continent, kept part of the population enslaved and restricted the right to vote to less than 10% of its citizens.

Despite being a bunch of racist, classist and sexist jerks they were the true heroes of the US independence and the legitimate political leaders of the new nation.

Any puppet state created by Britain and "headed" by loyalists *equivalent to South Vietnam* would be flatly rejected by the american people.

The people of Vietnam couldn't care less if Ho was a capitalist, a comunist or a feudalist. He was the greatest hero of Vietnam's struggle against French and Japanese colonial rule and that was all that counted for them.


----------



## Patrick2

JakeStarkey said:


> Let's get to Sanity Island and up on Reality Rock.
> 
> No declared war?  No treason.



A person who talks about "reality" suggests that the vietnam war wasn't a war.


----------



## Patrick2

Sallow said:


> wayne said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> hortysir said:
> 
> 
> 
> Reagan's dead and Fonda won't be soon enough
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The world owes Ronald Reagan a debt of gratitude; he won the Cold War and saved untold generations from slavery.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> He committed Treason, violated the United States Constitution, plunged this nation into massive debt, fostered several government bailouts, and "won" the Cold War by bribing the Soviets.
Click to expand...


You've truly taken leave of your senses.


----------



## Dr Grump

frazzledgear said:


> uscitizen said:
> 
> 
> 
> Get a life!  WTF care about what jane Fonda says?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What are you?  Like 16?  Some of us are older and don't pretend the only important stuff that happens occurred today.  We remember good and well the incredible damage this TRAITOR did to the morale of our soldiers and to this nation during wartime.  She was a major player in getting other people to do awful things to returning vets -people who were DRAFTED and not even there by choice but met upon their return with jeers, thrown bottles (a lefty favorite anytime) and being spit upon.   Fucking bitch.  Hope she rots in hell and she absolutely should go down in history books as the traitor she is.  This female, when asked about the fact that after getting her way and being instrumental in destroying support for the war and following the withdrawal of US forces - 4 MILLION civilians were slaughtered by the communists -responded by saying it wasn't important because we shouldn't have been there at all.  God save me from ever being the  cold-hearted, inhumane monster that Jane Fonda is that I could EVER just dismiss out of hand as UNIMPORTANT the fact 4 MILLION people were murdered, much less murdered after I played such a pivotal role in the sequence of events that resulted in those murders.
> 
> Jane Fonda should never have been able to get a good night's sleep for the rest of her life -but that presumes the bitch has a conscience.  And she doesn't.  She has stated numerous times she has no regrets about what she did -or the fact it resulted in the mass murder of 4 MILLION people.
Click to expand...


Talk about a drama queen..

Now she is responsible for 4 million deaths...

Some people just shouldn't be allowed to vote...


----------



## Dr Grump

Foxfyre said:


> Whether the war is declared or not, the men and women our country send to fight it are at just as much risk, bleed blood that is just as red, lose limbs and eyes just as horribly, and die just as dead.  Their families are just as stressed and just as grieved.
> 
> ANYBODY who puts them at greater risk by consoling and encouraging the enemy is their enemy and my enemy.   And traitor seems to be an apt characterization.



But that doesn't apply to Fonda..


----------



## logical4u

PoliticalChic said:


> Jane Fonda writes that a planned Saturday appearance on QVC was canceled by the shopping network after viewers complained, citing Fonda's political statements during the Vietnam War. Fonda was scheduled to promote her aging-with-spirit book "Prime Time: Making the Most of Your Life," due out Aug. 9.
> 
> On her website, Fonda writes:
> 
> The network said they got a lot of calls yesterday criticizing me for my opposition to the Vietnam War and threatening to boycott the show if I was allowed to appear. I am, to say the least, deeply disappointed that QVC caved to this kind of insane pressure by some well funded and organized political extremist groups...Most people dont buy into the far right lies.
> 
> Jane Fonda's QVC appearance pulled over Vietnam, she says - latimes.com



That is ironic that QVC caved to same techniques she was "trying" to apply and did apply during Vietnam.  I guess she showed her anti-fans how to do it.


----------



## tinydancer

I could never understand rich left wing born with a silver spoon in their mouths and always had it easy liberals fascination with communism. Hanoi Jane is just one of so many. Ayers father was a CEO. Dohrn grew up in an upper middle class family.

Ted Turner who absolutely admires Castro to death was born with a silver spoon in his mouth. The list of left wing maniacs who came from wealthy families is endless.

Truly strange.

Edit to add: Hanoi Jane was a true believer in communism.


----------



## José

> Originally posted by *tinydancer*
> *I could never understand* rich left wing born with a silver spoon in their mouths and always had it easy liberals fascination with communism.



I feel your pain.

I could never understand what's wrong with the idea that the right place for american soldiers who engage in unjust wars of agression is six feet below the ground with a bullet in the head.


----------



## JakeStarkey

Patrick2 said:


> JakeStarkey said:
> 
> 
> 
> Let's get to Sanity Island and up on Reality Rock.  No declared war?  No treason.
> 
> 
> 
> A person who talks about "reality" suggests that the vietnam war wasn't a war.
Click to expand...


This from a couch ranger, oh my.  Pat, you are just ignorant, not stupid.  You are biased, you can't evaluate.  OK.  Vietnam was not a "declared" war in the sense of the Constitution's requirements.  Go back and read the Tonkin Gulf Resolution.  Compare it to the declarations by Congress in WWI and WWII.  Then tell us how wrong you are.  Sheesh.


----------



## José

Jesus Christ!!

Fonda said she would like to shoot down one of the american pilots who were participating in a war of agression without anything remotely similar to a legitimate *CASUS BELLI*.

The woman deserves a Nobel Prize for those words of wisdom... she does not deserve to be nailed to a cross by a sorry bunch of drooling, mentally retarded super patriotic american clowns.


----------



## tinydancer

José;3895716 said:
			
		

> Originally posted by *tinydancer*
> *I could never understand* rich left wing born with a silver spoon in their mouths and always had it easy liberals fascination with communism.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I feel your pain.
> 
> I could never understand what's wrong with the idea that the right place for american soldiers who engage in unjust wars of agression is six feet below the ground with a bullet in the head.
Click to expand...


And pity the poor north vietnamese soldier who was a pawn in the hands of Ho Chi Minh who died fighting for Ho's imperialist dreams. An unjust war of aggression indeed.

Now back to Hanoi Jane the Communist.....


----------



## JakeStarkey

This is about tinydancer the unbalanced?  The OP is not about you.


----------



## José

Your problem, dancer, is that you refuse to see the Vietnam War through the eyes of the people of Vietnam.

You refuse to accept that Ho Chi Minh was the Father of the Nation so to speak, that in the eyes of the people of Vietnam he represented the century old vietnamese struggle to break free from foreign domination (China, France, Japan, etc...)

You refuse to accept all these facts because doing so would force you to concede a point that is extremely painful for you:

The fact that America didn't play the "good guy" in Vietnam.


----------



## tinydancer

José;3895865 said:
			
		

> Jesus Christ!!
> 
> Fonda said she would like to shoot down one of the american pilots who were participating in a war of agression without anything remotely similar to a legitimate *CASUS BELLI*.
> 
> The woman deserves a Nobel Prize for those words of wisdom... she does not deserve to be nailed to a cross by a sorry bunch of drooling, mentally retarded super patriotic american clowns.



She was just your better known anti American pro communist at the time. She believed in violence and winning a war. Hanoi Jane was just cheering on a different side called the Viet Cong.

She was no peacenik. Jane believed in communist takeovers of countries.

I guess you could call her a super patriotic North Vietnamese clown.


----------



## José

> Originally posted by *tinydancer*
> I guess you could call her a super patriotic North Vietnamese clown.



LOL, dancer...    

Well, I give you this:

Super patriotic clowns come in all flavors: americans, mexicans, russians, chinese... you name it.


----------



## Dr Grump

tinydancer said:


> José;3895865 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jesus Christ!!
> 
> Fonda said she would like to shoot down one of the american pilots who were participating in a war of agression without anything remotely similar to a legitimate *CASUS BELLI*.
> 
> The woman deserves a Nobel Prize for those words of wisdom... she does not deserve to be nailed to a cross by a sorry bunch of drooling, mentally retarded super patriotic american clowns.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> She was just your better known anti American pro communist at the time. She believed in violence and winning a war. Hanoi Jane was just cheering on a different side called the Viet Cong.
> 
> She was no peacenik. Jane believed in communist takeovers of countries.
> 
> I guess you could call her a super patriotic North Vietnamese clown.
Click to expand...


You don't have a clue do you TD...or are you a troll?


----------



## tinydancer

José;3895904 said:
			
		

> Your problem, dancer, is that you refuse to see the Vietnam War through the eyes of the people of Vietnam.
> 
> You refuse to accept that Ho Chi Minh was the Father of the Nation so to speak, that in the eyes of the people of Vietnam he represented the century old vietnamese struggle to break free from foreign domination (China, France, Japan, etc...)
> 
> You refuse to accept all these facts because doing so would force you to concede a point that is extremely painful for you:
> 
> The fact that America didn't play the "good guy" in Vietnam.





So everybody and their mother loved just loved and adored Ho Chi Minh did they?  

I vividly remember all the boat people who drowned at sea. Some made it. But so many didn't. A good friend and co worker of my husbands(when we lived in Toronto) had been a child on one of those boats.

His story is hair raising.


----------



## tinydancer

Dr Grump said:


> tinydancer said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> José;3895865 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jesus Christ!!
> 
> Fonda said she would like to shoot down one of the american pilots who were participating in a war of agression without anything remotely similar to a legitimate *CASUS BELLI*.
> 
> The woman deserves a Nobel Prize for those words of wisdom... she does not deserve to be nailed to a cross by a sorry bunch of drooling, mentally retarded super patriotic american clowns.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> She was just your better known anti American pro communist at the time. She believed in violence and winning a war. Hanoi Jane was just cheering on a different side called the Viet Cong.
> 
> She was no peacenik. Jane believed in communist takeovers of countries.
> 
> I guess you could call her a super patriotic North Vietnamese clown.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You don't have a clue do you TD...or are you a troll?
Click to expand...


I guess you missed the well known quote I put up of Hanoi Jane. The one where she says we should all fall to our knees and pray that one day we can all be communists?

1970. Speaking to students at the University of Michigan.


----------



## Patrick2

JakeStarkey said:


> Patrick2 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JakeStarkey said:
> 
> 
> 
> Let's get to Sanity Island and up on Reality Rock.  No declared war?  No treason.
> 
> 
> 
> A person who talks about "reality" suggests that the vietnam war wasn't a war.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> This from a couch ranger, oh my.  Pat, you are just ignorant, not stupid.  You are biased, you can't evaluate.  OK.  Vietnam was not a "declared" war in the sense of the Constitution's requirements.  Go back and read the Tonkin Gulf Resolution.  Compare it to the declarations by Congress in WWI and WWII.  Then tell us how wrong you are.  Sheesh.
Click to expand...


Lessee - how can I scope this down for you - 

Because imo every war since wwII was technically an illegal war because they weren't declared by congress, it's IDIOTIC to make a pole vault of illogic from that and say they thereby weren't WARS.  Further, I'm guessing any court would rule that congress in supplying draft legislation, and war budgets for several years to prosecute the war, effectively obviated even the technical illegality.  Sorry, you don't have a leg to stand on.


----------



## Mr_Rockhead

Warrior102 said:


> Sallow said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> frazzledgear said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...* 4 MILLION civilians were slaughtered by the communists -*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No they weren't. They were "slaughtered" by Americans.
> 
> Like this Conservative hero..
> 
> Lt. Calley....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Lt. Calley was a conservative hero? Where did you get that revelation.
> 
> Having personally served 20+ years in the military - Lt. Calley, if he was to be judged on his political position - would be tagged as a Liberal.
> 
> Inexperienced, his men had no respect for him, snot-nosed college puke with no military bearing, hated universally. Sounds Liberal to me.
> 
> This is the type of "officer" real Americans in the field would frag, with smiles on their faces.
Click to expand...


There are some people who simply do not belong in war but they dont always get screened out.

I am reminded of the college cowboy liberal hero whose weapon of choice to take out one, single, solitary, enemy soldier was twin-fifties.

If Im not mistaken, he killed the soldier (and probably every other fucking living thing down-range for about two and a half miles).

Gheese.


----------



## Mr_Rockhead

Warrior102 said:


> Has John Kerry been brought up yet?
> 
> If not - he should.
> 
> Woops - I just did.



Yikes!  I did to.


----------



## Mr_Rockhead

Sallow said:


> Foxfyre said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JakeStarkey said:
> 
> 
> 
> I have no doubt that is true.  However, unless war is declared, Fonda did not commit treason.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Source:  Dictonary.com
> 
> And the legal definition:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> TREASON
> This word imports a betraying, treachery, or breach of allegiance.
> 
> The Constitution of the United States, Art. III, defines treason against the United States to consist only in levying war against them, or in adhering to their enemies, giving them aid or comfort. This offence is punished with death. By the same article of the Constitution, no person shall be convicted of treason, unless on the testimony of two witnesses to the same overt act, or on confession in open court.
> Legal Definition of Treason
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I don't see anything in that to suggest that a war has to be declared in order to commit treason.  I am pretty sure there is nothing in U.S. law to suggest that either.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Reagan fulfilled 2 and 3 of your definition. Does he qualify too?
Click to expand...


If you feel Reagan qualifies, then you have to agree that Fonda also qualifies.

However, qualifying and actually being charged are two different things.

And thats all we are saying, she should have been charged.


----------



## Foxfyre

Dr Grump said:


> Foxfyre said:
> 
> 
> 
> Whether the war is declared or not, the men and women our country send to fight it are at just as much risk, bleed blood that is just as red, lose limbs and eyes just as horribly, and die just as dead.  Their families are just as stressed and just as grieved.
> 
> ANYBODY who puts them at greater risk by consoling and encouraging the enemy is their enemy and my enemy.   And traitor seems to be an apt characterization.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But that doesn't apply to Fonda..
Click to expand...


Yes, is does apply to Fonda.  A high ranking North Vietnam officer went on the record after we abandoned Saigon that we had them beat in the Tet Offensive.  They were ready to give up but what kept them fighting was the vivid images on television of American citizens 'rioting in the streets', burning American flags, cursing their government, and sympathizing with the North Vietnamese.  Jane Fonda was certainly part of that in her widely publicized comments and laughing as she looked through a North Vietnamese gunsight.  All that gave the North Vietnamese incentive to keep fighting and in the end it was not them but us who caved, abandoning our allies and leaving them to no doubt horrible deaths.  The way we sneaked out of Saigon was one of the sorriest chapters in U.S. history.

And in defeat we still mourn the 58,212 names inscribed on the Vietnam Memorial wall.

Since WWII we have never achieved victory in a war.  We just fight them and then stop fighting with nothing really resolved.  I hope I live long enough to see the day that we will never commit a single one of our brave young men and women to combat unless we 1) have a clear objective of what victory will be;  2) A definitive plan to achieve it and 3) The will to do whatever we have to do to get it done.

We have never won a war in which those we defeated are not now our friends.

And I don't believe we have ever acquired a friend in the wars we just stopped fighting.


----------



## José

> Originally posted by *Foxfyre*
> And in defeat we still mourn the 58,212 names inscribed on the Vietnam Memorial wall.



Speak for yourself and your morally depraved nationalism.

The rest of the world mourns the deaths of 1 million vietnamese who never did anything to France and America to have their country turned into a killing field.

They don't give two shits about french and US cannon fodder.


----------



## Grace

José;3898843 said:
			
		

> Originally posted by *Foxfyre*
> And in defeat we still mourn the 58,212 names inscribed on the Vietnam Memorial wall.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Speak for yourself and your morally depraved nationalism.
> 
> The rest of the world mourns the deaths of 1 million vietnamese who never did anything to France and America to have their country turned into a killing field.
> 
> They don't give two shits about french and US cannon fodder.
Click to expand...


Foxfyre speaks for me and for many others. YOU speak for yourself in your Fonda Ass Kissing.


----------



## José

> Originally posted by *Grace*
> Foxfyre speaks for me and for many others. YOU speak for yourself in your Fonda Ass Kissing.



Grace, 

I hope someday you'll show for these innocent vietnamese children:




the same wonderful commiseration and respect you showed for this (marvelous) creature:


----------



## JakeStarkey

Mr_Rockhead said:


> Sallow said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Foxfyre said:
> 
> 
> 
> Source:  Dictonary.com  And the legal definition:  I don't see anything in that to suggest that a war has to be declared in order to commit treason.  I am pretty sure there is nothing in U.S. law to suggest that either.
> 
> 
> 
> Reagan fulfilled 2 and 3 of your definition. Does he qualify too?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> If you feel Reagan qualifies, then you have to agree that Fonda also qualifies.  However, qualifying and actually being charged are two different things.  And thats all we are saying, she should have been charged.
Click to expand...

That you folks don't understand the Constitution or the law on treason is immaterial.

Fonda does not quality to be indicted.


----------



## Sallow

Mr_Rockhead said:


> Sallow said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Foxfyre said:
> 
> 
> 
> Source:  Dictonary.com
> 
> And the legal definition:
> 
> 
> 
> I don't see anything in that to suggest that a war has to be declared in order to commit treason.  I am pretty sure there is nothing in U.S. law to suggest that either.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Reagan fulfilled 2 and 3 of your definition. Does he qualify too?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> If you feel Reagan qualifies, then you have to agree that Fonda also qualifies.
> 
> However, qualifying and actually being charged are two different things.
> 
> And thats all we are saying, she should have been charged.
Click to expand...


Reagan should have been impeached and removed from office.

Not one conservative ever agreed with that.

But he specifically fulfilled the legal definition of Treason with his Iran deal..and Violated the Constitution with his Contra deal.

So much for the "law abiding" conservatives.


----------



## Sallow

José;3898930 said:
			
		

> Originally posted by *Grace*
> Foxfyre speaks for me and for many others. YOU speak for yourself in your Fonda Ass Kissing.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Grace,
> 
> I hope someday you'll show for these innocent vietnamese children:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> the same wonderful commiseration and respect you showed for this (marvelous) creature:
Click to expand...


Sarah Palin allowed them to be hunted from the air.

Bitch.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zr183lk-wQk]&#x202a;Aerial Hunting of Wolves in Alaska (short version)&#x202c;&rlm; - YouTube[/ame]
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EQobIUE1zTU]&#x202a;Brutal: Sarah Palin's Record on Aerial Wolf Hunting&#x202c;&rlm; - YouTube[/ame]


----------



## JakeStarkey

Hundreds of officers and thousands of NCOs left the service because of Iran-Contra.


----------



## Sallow

Mr_Rockhead said:


> Warrior102 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Has John Kerry been brought up yet?
> 
> If not - he should.
> 
> Woops - I just did.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yikes!  I did to.
Click to expand...


Yeah..and?

What about John Kerry.

He bled for this country.

He saved his men.

And he spoke out against the war.

And conservative bastards lied about his record.

Dailymotion - Kerry Confronts Swift Boat Funder - a News & Politics video


----------



## Patrick2

Sallow said:


> Mr_Rockhead said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Warrior102 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Has John Kerry been brought up yet?
> 
> If not - he should.
> 
> Woops - I just did.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yikes!  I did to.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yeah..and?
> 
> What about John Kerry.
> 
> He bled for this country.
> 
> He saved his men.
> 
> And he spoke out against the war.
> 
> And conservative bastards lied about his record.
> 
> Dailymotion - Kerry Confronts Swift Boat Funder - a News & Politics video
Click to expand...


He cut his finger a few times and demanded purple hearts.


----------



## JakeStarkey

Patrick2 in the field would have run from the wartime John Kerry.

Kerry did what the decorations said, and he would have kicked Pat's ass then handed it to him.


----------



## José

Sallow said:


> José;3898930 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Originally posted by *Grace*
> Foxfyre speaks for me and for many others. YOU speak for yourself in your Fonda Ass Kissing.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Grace,
> 
> I hope someday you'll show for these innocent vietnamese children:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> the same wonderful commiseration and respect you showed for this (marvelous) creature:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Sarah Palin allowed them to be hunted from the air.
> 
> Bitch.
> 
> [ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zr183lk-wQk]&#x202a;Aerial Hunting of Wolves in Alaska (short version)&#x202c;&rlm; - YouTube[/ame]
> [ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EQobIUE1zTU]&#x202a;Brutal: Sarah Palin's Record on Aerial Wolf Hunting&#x202c;&rlm; - YouTube[/ame]
Click to expand...


You, Grace and I are the 3 official wolf-lovers of the USMB, Sallow so I'm gonna share with you a real story I saw on a wildlife documentary (I'm probably the biggest fan of the genre). It's completely off-topic but who cares?? 

The show followed the release of two mexican or gray wolves into the wild (sorry I forgot the details). A native american tribe (a branch of the Sioux nation) offered their reservation as a new home for the wolf couple.

When the moment of release finally came, the "chief" came to see the wolves, and said to the male:

"*How are you, old fellow?

You disapeared from our lives so long ago and the heart of our tribe got filled with sadness. You left a void in our land and in our lives.

May you and your family prosper again. etc, etc, etc,...*"

Then the chief said a prayer in Sioux and the wolves were released.

One has to be made of steel to hold off the tears... the stark contrast between the white and the native american attitude becomes immediately clear for anyone with a functioning brain.

While the european culture viewed the wolf as a competitor to be annihilated and the native american culture worship them as their teacher.


----------



## José

On a more serious note, Sallow, I'm gonna create a thread about ethics, soldiers and wars to solve once and for all our ongoing discussion about US soldiers in Vietnam.

I'll post a link here when it's done.


----------



## Patrick2

JakeStarkey said:


> Patrick2 in the field would have run from the wartime John Kerry.
> 
> Kerry did what the decorations said, and he would have kicked Pat's ass then handed it to him.



Besides his fraudulent purple hearts, he disobeyed orders and ran his ship aground.  Then he apparently ran after an unarmed VC and shot him in the back.  After that, he came back home and held the fraudulent Winter Soldier "hearings".  He married the widow of a rich republican to get his hands on her money.


----------



## JakeStarkey

You rely on the rantings of an alcoholic old man, Pat, who hated Kerry, because Kerry was the real thing and told his superior to stick it up his alcoholic ass.  The closer the stories got to the men who actually served on the boats with him, the stories turned out to be those for which he was decorated.

George W. Bush also served competently in the Air National Guard.  He did not desert, he did his duty.

People like you, son, should not be permitted to vote.

Perhaps only veterans, who served faithfully like George Washington and Alexander Hamilton and James Monroe, should be allowed to vote.


----------



## Wolfmoon

Janes own father disowned her after that. Out of touch Actors and Actresses should stay out of politics. Jane should have stuck to saving starving dogs and children in Africa. Oh Well, Jane the poor little rich girl will go to her grave labeled a traitor!


----------



## Grace

José;3898930 said:
			
		

> Originally posted by *Grace*
> Foxfyre speaks for me and for many others. YOU speak for yourself in your Fonda Ass Kissing.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Grace,
> 
> I hope someday you'll show for these innocent vietnamese children:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> the same wonderful commiseration and respect you showed for this (marvelous) creature:
Click to expand...


What makes you think I don't feel pain for those people as much as I do the wolf? What does that have to do with Fonda? I think shes a bitch and I hope she goes to her grave shunned, hated and spit upon because she deserves all that she gets and more.


----------



## Grace

And I liken Palin to be just another Fonda. But Palin is much more stupid.


----------



## JakeStarkey

Wolfmoon said:


> Janes own father disowned her after that. Out of touch Actors and Actresses should stay out of politics. Jane should have stuck to saving starving dogs and children in Africa. Oh Well, Jane the poor little rich girl will go to her grave labeled a traitor!



Only by the unimportant, ignorant few.


----------



## JakeStarkey

Grace said:


> José;3898930 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Originally posted by *Grace*
> Foxfyre speaks for me and for many others. YOU speak for yourself in your Fonda Ass Kissing.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Grace,
> 
> I hope someday you'll show for these innocent vietnamese children:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> the same wonderful commiseration and respect you showed for this (marvelous) creature:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> What makes you think I don't feel pain for those people as much as I do the wolf? What does that have to do with Fonda? I think shes a bitch and I hope she goes to her grave shunned, hated and spit upon because she deserves all that she gets and more.
Click to expand...


I am sure you feel the pain for those back in the day, don't doubt it for a second.  You have every right in your heart, if you wish, to feel that about Fonda.  It's also in your heart to let it go, if you wish.


----------



## Grace

JakeStarkey said:


> Grace said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> José;3898930 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Grace,
> 
> I hope someday you'll show for these innocent vietnamese children:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> the same wonderful commiseration and respect you showed for this (marvelous) creature:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What makes you think I don't feel pain for those people as much as I do the wolf? What does that have to do with Fonda? I think shes a bitch and I hope she goes to her grave shunned, hated and spit upon because she deserves all that she gets and more.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I am sure you feel the pain for those back in the day, don't doubt it for a second.  You have every right in your heart, if you wish, to feel that about Fonda.  It's also in your heart to let it go, if you wish.
Click to expand...


When it comes to Fonda, I don't wish. I will nurture that hate whenever her fucking face or name comes up. Otherwise, I don't rent space in my head thinking about her at all. That's about as important to me that she is. Nothing. Nada. Zilch. Squat.
YOU are the one that said you didn't want to hear it from me Jake. In a public thread, in a public forum. Now you sing another tune. Sorry. Not interested in your opinion of what YOU think I should feel.


----------



## The Gadfly

JakeStarkey said:


> Caroljo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JakeStarkey said:
> 
> 
> 
> Such a tiny damaged soul you have, tinydancer.  Five guys from high school died there.  At least another ten were wounded or injured.  None of us hate Jane Fonda.  You folks who weren't there have no moral legitimacy to hate.  Leave it to the vets from then to make the choice.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> My husband joined the Marines VOLUNTARILY and went to Viet Nam when he was 17.... if you think what others have said about her were nasty...you should hear the words that come out of his mouth!  Most americans that know what she did DO hate her...it was treason and she should have been shot!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> That's for your husband to decide, not you.  You don't have the moral legitimacy to decide (1) her behavior treasonous, and (2) whether her remorse is true.
> 
> Don't like it?  I don't care.
Click to expand...


Well, Jake, I don't know when or where you served, but I do know I fought in Vietnam, so I think I have the appropriate "standing" to say the following: Jane Fonda gave aid and comfort , and made propaganda, for an armed enemy of the United States in wartime. (I do not care for such silly distinctions as "Vietnam was not a declared war" - morally, and to a soldier fighting there, it WAS a war). That, in my book, is treason. There is no question that Jane Fonda and others, some driven by ideology, some by honest belief, and some by self-aggrandizement, put themselves before their country, and helped the North Vietnamese win a war they lost on the battlefield. In the process, they deprived those of us who served there of the victory we fought, sweated and bled for, and over 58,000 of our brothers died for.  Therefore:

Rest assured, that if I had been able somehow to get hold of that American Traitor Bitch, I would have made her look at the faces and mangled bodies of all the Vietnamese women, from toddlers to girls to old women, that her beloved little VC "freedom fighters" raped, mutilated, tortured and murdered, in ways too gruesome to describe here. I wish, that every image of Communist atrocity burned into my brain, and that of every Vietnam vet who saw them, could somehow be etched on her soul, so that she would have to spend eternity with the memory of just what it was she supported. I'd like for her to know just who the REAL murderers, torturers, rapists, and baby killers of Vietnam were, because they sure as hell weren't us Americans! Others may choose to forgive and forget; as for me, I have no interest in meeting any of my former foes, and shaking hands with them; I shake hands with men, NOT murdering, torturing, butchering scum. The enemy were NOT soldiers, they were the dregs of barbaric, depraved humanity! I hate every damn VC and NVA just as much now, as I did then, and I'll forgive Hanoi Jane, when the Jews forgive Hitler! I don't claim to speak for all of us, but the majority of Vietnam vets I know agree with me.

You can lecture me on the frailties of my unforgiving soul, but I promise you this; if I do go to hell for anything I've done, I will make it my personal mission, to hunt down the traitorous soul of that communist bitch, and kick it from one end of hades to the other.


----------



## JakeStarkey

The Gadfly said:


> JakeStarkey said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Caroljo said:
> 
> 
> 
> My husband joined the Marines VOLUNTARILY and went to Viet Nam when he was 17.... if you think what others have said about her were nasty...you should hear the words that come out of his mouth!  Most americans that know what she did DO hate her...it was treason and she should have been shot!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That's for your husband to decide, not you.  You don't have the moral legitimacy to decide (1) her behavior treasonous, and (2) whether her remorse is true.
> 
> Don't like it?  I don't care.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Well, Jake, I don't know when or where you served, but I do know I fought in Vietnam, so I think I have the appropriate "standing" to say the following: Jane Fonda gave aid and comfort , and made propaganda, for an armed enemy of the United States in wartime. (I do not care for such silly distinctions as "Vietnam was not a declared war" - morally, and to a soldier fighting there, it WAS a war). That, in my book, is treason. There is no question that Jane Fonda and others, some driven by ideology, some by honest belief, and some by self-aggrandizement, put themselves before their country, and helped the North Vietnamese win a war they lost on the battlefield. In the process, they deprived those of us who served there of the victory we fought, sweated and bled for, and over 58,000 of our brothers died for.  Therefore:
> 
> Rest assured, that if I had been able somehow to get hold of that American Traitor Bitch, I would have made her look at the faces and mangled bodies of all the Vietnamese women, from toddlers to girls to old women, that her beloved little VC "freedom fighters" raped, mutilated, tortured and murdered, in ways too gruesome to describe here. I wish, that every image of Communist atrocity burned into my brain, and that of every Vietnam vet who saw them, could somehow be etched on her soul, so that she would have to spend eternity with the memory of just what it was she supported. I'd like for her to know just who the REAL murderers, torturers, rapists, and baby killers of Vietnam were, because they sure as hell weren't us Americans! Others may choose to forgive and forget; as for me, I have no interest in meeting any of my former foes, and shaking hands with them; I shake hands with men, NOT murdering, torturing, butchering scum. The enemy were NOT soldiers, they were the dregs of barbaric, depraved humanity! I hate every damn VC and NVA just as much now, as I did then, and I'll forgive Hanoi Jane, when the Jews forgive Hitler! I don't claim to speak for all of us, but the majority of Vietnam vets I know agree with me.
> 
> You can lecture me on the frailties of my unforgiving soul, but I promise you this; if I do go to hell for anything I've done, I will make it my personal mission, to hunt down the traitorous soul of that communist bitch, and kick it from one end of hades to the other.
Click to expand...


The Gadfly, many veterans disagree with your attitude, you know this, yet you want to vent.  I understand that, OK, but I have every right to tell you I think you are on a wrong track.  A lot of bad things were done in Vietnam, we did a bit of it, for sure, but if you are saying the NVA and the VC were a lot worse, I agree.


----------



## Againsheila

wayne said:


> hortysir said:
> 
> 
> 
> Reagan's dead and Fonda won't be soon enough
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The world owes Ronald Reagan a debt of gratitude; he won the Cold War and saved untold generations from slavery.
Click to expand...


No offense, but I don't think he "won" the cold war.  They  just spent so much on arms trying to keep up with us that they went bankrupt.  Now we are in the same position.  As went the USSR, so goes the USA.


----------



## Againsheila

tinydancer said:


> I could never understand rich left wing born with a silver spoon in their mouths and always had it easy liberals fascination with communism. Hanoi Jane is just one of so many. Ayers father was a CEO. Dohrn grew up in an upper middle class family.
> 
> Ted Turner who absolutely admires Castro to death was born with a silver spoon in his mouth. The list of left wing maniacs who came from wealthy families is endless.
> 
> Truly strange.
> 
> Edit to add: Hanoi Jane was a true believer in communism.



There are a fair number of right wing hacks that were born into upper class families too....

Look at Bush Jr....just for example....


----------



## JakeStarkey

Now that is class warfare: all libs come from upper class families.

Is that stupid, or what?


----------



## The Gadfly

Sallow said:


> Patrick2 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sallow said:
> 
> 
> 
> Naw.
> 
> The Vietnamese took em out.
> 
> Wonder if Ol' Tricky Dick was proud he once supported them.
> 
> Seems conservatives could give a shit.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Let's be clear here.  The vietnamese didn't topple the khmer rouge regime because they had a tender concern for the 1/3 of the population being killed by them, they did it because after the end of the vietnam war, the khmer rouge attacked vietnam.  As for Nixon, he ended the war started by democrats.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Democrats? That's arguable. Eisenhower stopped a general election that would have seen a victory for Ho Chi Mihn.
> 
> And it doesn't matter "why' they took the Khmer Rouge out..they took them out. And Nixon ended the war after expanding it and killing over a million Vietnamese.
> 
> And he didn't end it because he wanted to, he ended it because of massive protests.
> 
> Vietnam has pretty much done right by it's people..it's got a vibrant and fast growing economy.  Surprisingly enough..it didn't hold any malice against America either..for what was..a crime and a genocide.
Click to expand...


Really, Sallow? 65,000 executions in the "re-education camps"? How about the "boat people"- did your commie pals do right by them? How about the Dega ("Montagnards", to you)? How are THEY being treated by the regime, these days? Do you even care? And to think some of you call ME a "baby killer"! What's ironic, is that some of us American soldiers who supposedly "did nothing but commit war crimes" in Vietnam, had and have more compassion for the Vietnamese people (the innocent civilians) than you liberals have ever had!

By the way, while we are setting the record straight, most of us consider Lt. Calley a sorry disgrace, to the army, to the officer corps, and to America. The record shows that Calley was at best a marginal officer, lacking the requisite qualities of leadership, incompetent, negligent, and unable or unwilling to maintain discipline in his unit; in essence a failure, who under better circumstances would have been weeded out at OCS, and should never have been given command of an infantry platoon. I knew a few of his species in Vietnam, and they were universally despised, though fortunately, most of them never did anything remotely like what Calley did. So far as this former officer is concerned, Calley is NOT a hero, NOT a victim, NOT a martyr, and NOT a scapegoat; just a simple, miserable, wretched failure.


----------



## JakeStarkey

Much of what you say, Gad, is true, but my liberal friends cared for the civilians, even if they showed poor understanding in jumping on the troops.  Yes, LT Calley never should have held a command, and I still don't understand by CPT Medina and the BN XO didn't get hammered.  Disgraceful.

I don't know if this part is true, but I have heard it was two Mormon GIs who turned their machine gun onto the rest of the PLT and told them to "cease firing or we will shoot you!"  Hopefully, something decent happened on that terrible day.


----------



## The Gadfly

JakeStarkey said:


> You rely on the rantings of an alcoholic old man, Pat, who hated Kerry, because Kerry was the real thing and told his superior to stick it up his alcoholic ass.  The closer the stories got to the men who actually served on the boats with him, the stories turned out to be those for which he was decorated.
> 
> George W. Bush also served competently in the Air National Guard.  He did not desert, he did his duty.
> 
> People like you, son, should not be permitted to vote.
> 
> Perhaps only veterans, who served faithfully like George Washington and Alexander Hamilton and James Monroe, should be allowed to vote.



Jake,
There are conflicting accounts of what Lt. Kerry did and did not do in Vietnam. I am not going to question the conduct of a fellow officer in the field, when I did not personally witness same, and the accounts of those who did vary widely; and I presume his medal citations are accurate. However, his conduct after he returned from Vietnam is not in dispute; it is a matter of record, and I find that conduct inappropriate and reprehensible.


----------



## JakeStarkey

His conduct after Vietnam is fully accurate and a matter of record and fair game.

What he did in Vietnam, according to the stories of the men who served on the boat, give no reason why any of us should pay attention to the alcoholic ravings of a man who should never have obtained flag rank.


----------



## Patrick2

JakeStarkey said:


> You rely on the rantings of an alcoholic old man, Pat, who hated Kerry, because Kerry was the real thing and told his superior to stick it up his alcoholic ass.  The closer the stories got to the men who actually served on the boats with him, the stories turned out to be those for which he was decorated.



Nonsense, he was exposed for what he is.  A number of soldiers who testified at his Winter Soldier hearings, who told about all kinds of alleged US atrocities, were discovered by the few reporters who followed up to have been in the military in vietnam but never in combat, or in the military but never in vietnam, or even never in the military at all.


----------



## JakeStarkey

The Gadfly has the right of it, and a civilian like you who knows nothing receives the type of reply that such rantings as yours deserve: they show you know nothing.


----------



## Patrick2

JakeStarkey said:


> The Gadfly has the right of it, and a civilian like you who knows nothing receives the type of reply that such rantings as yours deserve: they show you know nothing.



Lots of MILITARY *who were there* nailed him.  End of story.


----------



## The Gadfly

Patrick2 said:


> JakeStarkey said:
> 
> 
> 
> You rely on the rantings of an alcoholic old man, Pat, who hated Kerry, because Kerry was the real thing and told his superior to stick it up his alcoholic ass.  The closer the stories got to the men who actually served on the boats with him, the stories turned out to be those for which he was decorated.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Nonsense, he was exposed for what he is.  A number of soldiers who testified at his Winter Soldier hearings, who told about all kinds of alleged US atrocities, were discovered by the few reporters who followed up to have been in the military in vietnam but never in combat, or in the military but never in vietnam, or even never in the military at all.
Click to expand...


Those hearings, and the procuring of false testimony, are the conduct I have the greatest problem with. Look, I'm not about to claim that every American troop in Vietnam was an angel; there are a few soldiers in every war who do terrible things, things that dishonor their uniform, and Vietnam was no exception. However, to paint the majority of American troops in Vietnam as mindless animals and war criminals who ran amok simply is not true and it unfairly sullied the honor of those of us who did our best to follow orders, act according to the laws of war, and to protect the innocent (and sometimes, that meant protecting them from our Vietnamese counterparts, as well as from the Cong and NVA). Yes, we were savage, even merciless, in battle, but most of us did anything but abuse the local civilians. I thought we were supposed to protect those poor people, and one of my deepest regrets is that we could not do more, and that ultimately, we were forced to abandon them, knowing what the communists would do to them. Personally, I feel sick over that, and always will, and I know other Vietnam vets who feel the same, and yet, according to Mr. Kerry, and "witnesses" who weren't even there, we are the bad guys? Why....just, WHY?


----------



## Grace

The Gadfly said:


> JakeStarkey said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Caroljo said:
> 
> 
> 
> My husband joined the Marines VOLUNTARILY and went to Viet Nam when he was 17.... if you think what others have said about her were nasty...you should hear the words that come out of his mouth!  Most americans that know what she did DO hate her...it was treason and she should have been shot!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That's for your husband to decide, not you.  You don't have the moral legitimacy to decide (1) her behavior treasonous, and (2) whether her remorse is true.
> 
> Don't like it?  I don't care.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Well, Jake, I don't know when or where you served, but I do know I fought in Vietnam, so I think I have the appropriate "standing" to say the following: Jane Fonda gave aid and comfort , and made propaganda, for an armed enemy of the United States in wartime. (I do not care for such silly distinctions as "Vietnam was not a declared war" - morally, and to a soldier fighting there, it WAS a war). That, in my book, is treason. There is no question that Jane Fonda and others, some driven by ideology, some by honest belief, and some by self-aggrandizement, put themselves before their country, and helped the North Vietnamese win a war they lost on the battlefield. In the process, they deprived those of us who served there of the victory we fought, sweated and bled for, and over 58,000 of our brothers died for.  Therefore:
> 
> Rest assured, that if I had been able somehow to get hold of that American Traitor Bitch, I would have made her look at the faces and mangled bodies of all the Vietnamese women, from toddlers to girls to old women, that her beloved little VC "freedom fighters" raped, mutilated, tortured and murdered, in ways too gruesome to describe here. I wish, that every image of Communist atrocity burned into my brain, and that of every Vietnam vet who saw them, could somehow be etched on her soul, so that she would have to spend eternity with the memory of just what it was she supported. I'd like for her to know just who the REAL murderers, torturers, rapists, and baby killers of Vietnam were, because they sure as hell weren't us Americans! Others may choose to forgive and forget; as for me, I have no interest in meeting any of my former foes, and shaking hands with them; I shake hands with men, NOT murdering, torturing, butchering scum. The enemy were NOT soldiers, they were the dregs of barbaric, depraved humanity! I hate every damn VC and NVA just as much now, as I did then, and I'll forgive Hanoi Jane, when the Jews forgive Hitler! I don't claim to speak for all of us, but the majority of Vietnam vets I know agree with me.
> 
> You can lecture me on the frailties of my unforgiving soul, but I promise you this; if I do go to hell for anything I've done, I will make it my personal mission, to hunt down the traitorous soul of that communist bitch, and kick it from one end of hades to the other.
Click to expand...


----------



## The Gadfly

JakeStarkey said:


> Much of what you say, Gad, is true, but my liberal friends cared for the civilians, even if they showed poor understanding in jumping on the troops.  Yes, LT Calley never should have held a command, and I still don't understand by CPT Medina and the BN XO didn't get hammered.  Disgraceful.
> 
> I don't know if this part is true, but I have heard it was two Mormon GIs who turned their machine gun onto the rest of the PLT and told them to "cease firing or we will shoot you!"  Hopefully, something decent happened on that terrible day.



Jake,
I think you're referring to WO Hugh Thompson's two door gunners; Thompson ordered them to fire on troops from 2nd Platoon, C Company if they tried to kill a group of Vietnamese civilians hiding in a bunker. WO Thompson and his crew seem to be some of the few who did the right thing that day. Calley might have been the worst culprit, but not the only one; IMO, some other officers were guilty of dereliction of duty, or worse. The whole thing still reeks, and was definitely NOT "normal"; not in my experience. Hugh Thompson said years later he could never forgive the men of that company for what they did that day. I can't either. There is no way you can justify something like that, no way at all.


----------



## Patrick2

The Gadfly said:


> Patrick2 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JakeStarkey said:
> 
> 
> 
> You rely on the rantings of an alcoholic old man, Pat, who hated Kerry, because Kerry was the real thing and told his superior to stick it up his alcoholic ass.  The closer the stories got to the men who actually served on the boats with him, the stories turned out to be those for which he was decorated.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Nonsense, he was exposed for what he is.  A number of soldiers who testified at his Winter Soldier hearings, who told about all kinds of alleged US atrocities, were discovered by the few reporters who followed up to have been in the military in vietnam but never in combat, or in the military but never in vietnam, or even never in the military at all.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Those hearings, and the procuring of false testimony, are the conduct I have the greatest problem with. Look, I'm not about to claim that every American troop in Vietnam was an angel; there are a few soldiers in every war who do terrible things, things that dishonor their uniform, and Vietnam was no exception. However, to paint the majority of American troops in Vietnam as mindless animals and war criminals who ran amok simply is not true and it unfairly sullied the honor of those of us who did our best to follow orders, act according to the laws of war, and to protect the innocent (and sometimes, that meant protecting them from our Vietnamese counterparts, as well as from the Cong and NVA). Yes, we were savage, even merciless, in battle, but most of us did anything but abuse the local civilians. I thought we were supposed to protect those poor people, and one of my deepest regrets is that we could not do more, and that ultimately, we were forced to abandon them, knowing what the communists would do to them. Personally, I feel sick over that, and always will, and I know other Vietnam vets who feel the same, and yet, according to Mr. Kerry, and "witnesses" who weren't even there, we are the bad guys? Why....just, WHY?
Click to expand...


You soldiers did just fine there, but from what I've read you were let down by the civilian leaders.  They say wars are to important to leave to generals - that was the first civilian-led war, and the results spoke for themselves.


----------



## Mr_Rockhead

Sallow said:


> Mr_Rockhead said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sallow said:
> 
> 
> 
> Reagan fulfilled 2 and 3 of your definition. Does he qualify too?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If you feel Reagan qualifies, then you have to agree that Fonda also qualifies.
> 
> However, qualifying and actually being charged are two different things.
> 
> And thats all we are saying, she should have been charged.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Reagan should have been impeached and removed from office.
> 
> Not one conservative ever agreed with that.
> 
> But he specifically fulfilled the legal definition of Treason with his Iran deal..and Violated the Constitution with his Contra deal.
> 
> So much for the "law abiding" conservatives.
Click to expand...


You are correct, there are a lot of people who should have been charged but never were (including Jane Fonda).


----------



## Mr_Rockhead

Sallow said:


> Mr_Rockhead said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Warrior102 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Has John Kerry been brought up yet?
> 
> If not - he should.
> 
> Woops - I just did.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yikes!  I did to.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yeah..and?
> 
> What about John Kerry.
> 
> He bled for this country.
> 
> He saved his men.
> 
> And he spoke out against the war.
> 
> And conservative bastards lied about his record.
> 
> Dailymotion - Kerry Confronts Swift Boat Funder - a News & Politics video
Click to expand...


I never said he didnt do any of the things you listed.

I simply mentioned that he has been brought up (twice and, now, three times) on this thread.

Heck, Ill even go as far as to admit that Kerry did a lot of other stuff besides the things you listed.

I think the only point is it is hard to talk about Jane Fonda and not mention John Kerry.


----------



## Mr_Rockhead

The Gadfly said:


> JakeStarkey said:
> 
> 
> 
> You rely on the rantings of an alcoholic old man, Pat, who hated Kerry, because Kerry was the real thing and told his superior to stick it up his alcoholic ass.  The closer the stories got to the men who actually served on the boats with him, the stories turned out to be those for which he was decorated.
> 
> George W. Bush also served competently in the Air National Guard.  He did not desert, he did his duty.
> 
> People like you, son, should not be permitted to vote.
> 
> Perhaps only veterans, who served faithfully like George Washington and Alexander Hamilton and James Monroe, should be allowed to vote.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jake,
> There are conflicting accounts of what Lt. Kerry did and did not do in Vietnam. I am not going to question the conduct of a fellow officer in the field, when I did not personally witness same, and the accounts of those who did vary widely; and I presume his medal citations are accurate. However, his conduct after he returned from Vietnam is not in dispute; it is a matter of record, and I find that conduct inappropriate and reprehensible.
Click to expand...


I will only add that, since Kerry was an officer, he spent a lot more time with group of officers who condemned him then he did with the handful of enlisted men who stood with him.

To this day, the navy has strict segregation between officers and enlisted when it comes to living quarters and etc.  So Kerry spent a lot more time with the officers who banded together to run his presidential bid aground then he did with the crew of his boat.  He lived in the officers barracks and his crew lived in the enlisted barracks.

Also, those men who challenged Kerry were also decorated heroes and they deserve every bit the amount of respect for their service as the Kerry supporters demand for Kerry.

And, I agree, if the navy said Kerry earned all those decorations in four short months, as far as Im concerned, he earned them.

And, yup, Kerrys real notoriety begins when he touched-down back home.


----------



## JakeStarkey

Patrick2 said:


> The Gadfly said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Patrick2 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Nonsense, he was exposed for what he is.  A number of soldiers who testified at his Winter Soldier hearings, who told about all kinds of alleged US atrocities, were discovered by the few reporters who followed up to have been in the military in vietnam but never in combat, or in the military but never in vietnam, or even never in the military at all.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Those hearings, and the procuring of false testimony, are the conduct I have the greatest problem with. Look, I'm not about to claim that every American troop in Vietnam was an angel; there are a few soldiers in every war who do terrible things, things that dishonor their uniform, and Vietnam was no exception. However, to paint the majority of American troops in Vietnam as mindless animals and war criminals who ran amok simply is not true and it unfairly sullied the honor of those of us who did our best to follow orders, act according to the laws of war, and to protect the innocent (and sometimes, that meant protecting them from our Vietnamese counterparts, as well as from the Cong and NVA). Yes, we were savage, even merciless, in battle, but most of us did anything but abuse the local civilians. I thought we were supposed to protect those poor people, and one of my deepest regrets is that we could not do more, and that ultimately, we were forced to abandon them, knowing what the communists would do to them. Personally, I feel sick over that, and always will, and I know other Vietnam vets who feel the same, and yet, according to Mr. Kerry, and "witnesses" who weren't even there, we are the bad guys? Why....just, WHY?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You soldiers did just fine there, but from what I've read you were let down by the civilian leaders.  They say wars are to important to leave to generals - that was the first civilian-led war, and the results spoke for themselves.
Click to expand...


Abraham Lincoln led the Civil War.  Study the literature.  FDR had no trouble telling the admirals and generals when to stand down and what to do.  You are correct, though, in thanking the American men and women who served in Vietnam.


----------



## JakeStarkey

An officer's word is no better than an enlisted man's word, and his observation is inherently no worthier.  When bullets fly around the men closest to Kerry, listen to them before those further away.  No drunk retired flag officer deserves respect when his rantings are obviously only that, ranting hatred.  The enlisted observations, since they were the ones closest to Kerry in action, will always be given more weight than those who were further away in the action.


----------



## uscitizen

Ahh the thread has now morphed to an anti Kerry thread.


----------



## Mr_Rockhead

JakeStarkey said:


> An officer's word is no better than an enlisted man's word, and his observation is inherently no worthier.  When bullets fly around the men closest to Kerry, listen to them before those further away.  No drunk retired flag officer deserves respect when his rantings are obviously only that, ranting hatred.  The enlisted observations, since they were the ones closest to Kerry in action, will always be given more weight than those who were further away in the action.



I believe there were about 20 decorated officers from Kerrys swift boat squadron who were the first to come forward against Kerry.  These officers were later joined by others including at least one Medal Of Honor winner (and including at least one member of Kerrys crew).  And I believe they were sober when they did this.

That said, sure, Kerry and his crew lived through some harrowing times together.  And it only makes sense that (most of them) would stick up for each other when the time came.  But so wouldnt anyone under similar circumstances.


----------



## Mr_Rockhead

uscitizen said:


> Ahh the thread has now morphed to an anti Kerry thread.




I noticed that to.

I guess its hard to talk about one without eventually mentioning the other.

Probably has something to do with that two peas in a pod thing.


----------



## JakeStarkey

You are repeating the drunk's story, rockhead.  And what you believe does not count for squat.  The story is clear, and your interp is wrong.  Listen to the stories of those closest to Kerry.

Officers are no more inherently reliable in telling the truth than enlisted or NCO ranks.  I saw too many officers convicted by courts martial to believe otherwise.


----------



## logical4u

uscitizen said:


> Treason?  Now the Reagan administration commited treason.  Govt employees dealing weapons to an avowed enemy of the USA.



Is that like this administration supplying arms to mexican drug lords that will overthrow that country and are crimminals in this country?  Funny, how you worshippers of O, are totally silent about that.


----------



## logical4u

JakeStarkey said:


> Foxfyre said:
> 
> 
> 
> Whether the war is declared or not, the men and women our country send to fight it are at just as much risk, bleed blood that is just as red, lose limbs and eyes just as horribly, and die just as dead.  Their families are just as stressed and just as grieved.
> 
> ANYBODY who puts them at greater risk by consoling and encouraging the enemy is their enemy and my enemy.   And traitor seems to be an apt characterization.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I have no doubt that is true.  However, unless war is declared, Fonda did not commit treason.
Click to expand...


Why do we posecute spies?


----------



## logical4u

Sallow said:


> Warrior102 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sallow said:
> 
> 
> 
> No they weren't. They were "slaughtered" by Americans.
> 
> Like this Conservative hero..
> 
> Lt. Calley.
> 
> William Calley - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> My Lai Massacre - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> America commited a war crime and a genocide in Vietnam. There is no way around that.
> 
> Calley's men herded people into ditches and machined gunned them to death. They gang raped little girls. And he got away with the whole thing. It wasn't an isolated incident either.
> 
> Is this the fault of our troops? Not at all. They were poorly commanded by people in Washington. And they were pawns in a massive bloody crime of epic proportions.
> 
> Are Conservatives mad at this at all? Absolutely not. In fact..they did it again in Iraq. While the atrocities were kept to a minimum..it was a war crime nonetheless.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Lt. Calley was a conservative hero? Where did you get that revelation.
> 
> Having personally served 20+ years in the military - Lt. Calley, if he was to be judged on his political position - would be tagged as a Liberal.
> 
> Inexperienced, his men had no respect for him, snot-nosed college puke with no military bearing, hated universally. Sounds Liberal to me.
> 
> This is the type of "officer" real Americans in the field would frag, with smiles on their faces.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Nixon basically got his ass out of the fire.
> 
> Did you read Calley's biography?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> William Calley was born in Miami, Florida. His father was a United States Navy veteran of World War II. Calley graduated from Miami Edison High School in Miami and then attended Palm Beach Junior College in 1963. He dropped out in 1964 after receiving unsatisfactory grades, consisting of two Cs, one D, and four Fs.[3] Calley then worked at a variety of jobs, including as a bellhop, dishwasher, salesman, insurance appraiser and train conductor.[4] While living in San Francisco in 1966, Calley received a letter from the Selective Service board requesting reevaluation of his medical condition. While attempting to return to Miami, his car broke down in Albuquerque, New Mexico, where Calley then reported to a recruiting official, enlisting in the U.S. Army on July 26, 1966.[4]
> 
> Later in 1974, President Nixon tacitly issued Calley a limited Presidential Pardon. Consequently, his general court-martial conviction and dismissal from the U.S. Army were upheld, however, the prison sentence and subsequent parole obligations were commuted to time served, leaving Calley a free man.[14]
> 
> Sometime in 2005 or 2006, Calley divorced his wife Penny, whose father had employed him at the V.V. Vick jewelry store in Columbus since 1975, and moved to downtown Atlanta to live with his son, William Laws Calley III.[15] In October 2007, Calley agreed to be interviewed by the UK newspaper the Daily Mail to discuss the massacre, saying, *"Meet me in the lobby of the nearest bank at opening time tomorrow, and give me a certified check for $25,000, *then I'll talk to you for precisely one hour."[16] When the journalist "showed up at the appointed hour, armed not with a check but a list of questions," Calley left.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Military family..dropped out of college..followed orders without question..pardoned by Nixon and ultimately wanting to profit..
> 
> Sounds pretty conservative to me.
Click to expand...


Why do we know his grades and not Obama's, ..... just sayin'


----------



## logical4u

Sallow said:


> Mr_Rockhead said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sallow said:
> 
> 
> 
> Reagan fulfilled 2 and 3 of your definition. Does he qualify too?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If you feel Reagan qualifies, then you have to agree that Fonda also qualifies.
> 
> However, qualifying and actually being charged are two different things.
> 
> And thats all we are saying, she should have been charged.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Reagan should have been impeached and removed from office.
> 
> Not one conservative ever agreed with that.
> 
> But he specifically fulfilled the legal definition of Treason with his Iran deal..and Violated the Constitution with his Contra deal.
> 
> So much for the "law abiding" conservatives.
Click to expand...



Is this like "this" administration supplying the enemy (drug thugs criss-crossing border) and the muslim brotherhood in Libya)?  Are you saying he should be impeached, too?


----------



## logical4u

Grace said:


> And I liken Palin to be just another Fonda. But Palin is much more stupid.



What enemies of America has Palin laughed and broke bread with before cameras?


----------



## logical4u

Againsheila said:


> tinydancer said:
> 
> 
> 
> I could never understand rich left wing born with a silver spoon in their mouths and always had it easy liberals fascination with communism. Hanoi Jane is just one of so many. Ayers father was a CEO. Dohrn grew up in an upper middle class family.
> 
> Ted Turner who absolutely admires Castro to death was born with a silver spoon in his mouth. The list of left wing maniacs who came from wealthy families is endless.
> 
> Truly strange.
> 
> Edit to add: Hanoi Jane was a true believer in communism.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There are a fair number of right wing hacks that were born into upper class families too....
> 
> Look at Bush Jr....just for example....
Click to expand...


And are they playing with the enemy during combat (in a safer area of course), while the same enemy is killing American military?  Please clarify.


----------



## logical4u

JakeStarkey said:


> Now that is class warfare: all libs come from upper class families.
> 
> Is that stupid, or what?



You missed it.  The "leaders" of libs come from upper class families.  They whip up the people they consider to be absolute idiots (a few have even put ways into place, "abortion", to reduce the number of "unacceptable" minorities) into mob frenzies, and direct the mob for their personal gain.  It is about power.  Daddy had it, they want it, and they are unwilling to work for it honestly in a competetive market place.  They deceive, destroy and are willing to murder for power, and they do it in the liberal venue.  The liberals are all about dividing and conquering.  They pit groups and classes (defined by them of course) against each other, to direct attention away from their methods.  Those silver-spooned "leaders" cannot get as much traction with conservatives; conservatives support INDIVIDUAL FREEDOM, not group (elite) privelage.


----------



## hellofromwarsaw

Stupid GD war. And Nixon's "secret plan" to was a bunch of crappe to get elected. GD lying' cheatin' pubs and their silly blind dupes...Jane always apologized for that picture,  but hardly treason, dimwits...


----------



## Foxfyre

logical4u said:


> Grace said:
> 
> 
> 
> And I liken Palin to be just another Fonda. But Palin is much more stupid.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What enemies of America has Palin laughed and broke bread with before cameras?
Click to expand...


I was sort of wondering that too.  Seemed like an odd statement because whatever anybody thinks about Sarah Palin, I can't think of a single instance that she ever bashed the military or her country for that matter.


----------



## Toome

I think that much of what is attributed to Jane Fonda's anti-war actions are basically made up or exaggerated.  I do not deny that she went to Hanoi; nor do I deny that she made strong anti-US statements that served North Vietnamese propaganda.  However, until she is tried in court for her actions and convicted of treason, she's not a traitor.  In all these years, no one has made a successful case against her.  This tells me that's because there is no evidence to support the charge.

If we truly believe in the Constitution, we have to acknowledge the right of people like Jane Fonda to express themselves no matter how unpopular the statement may be.  Otherwise, citizens will begin to fear expressing themselves; and, I think that our forefathers specifically worded the Constitution to protect that freedom of expression.

While she's made public apologies for her past actions, which is HER right to do, not everyone has to accept those apologies, which is THEIR right to do.  And while it's been a very long time since she made those statements and took those actions, it's clear that some folks are never going to forgive her.  That's something SHE'S going to have to live with.

She was not denied due process.  Viewers have the right to express outrage, and QVC certainly has the right to protect its financial interests if letting Fonda appear is going to hit them in the wallet.  That's the beauty of free enterprise and commerce.

No, I don't condone Fonda's actions in the past, but I defend her right to express her disagreement.  The Constitution very strongly sees to that.  Now, all these years later, the same argument is being used against her:  the right of all of those people she offended and disrespected to exercise their right to express that disagreement in turn.

Karma's a bitch.


----------



## Foxfyre

Toome said:


> I think that much of what is attributed to Jane Fonda's anti-war actions are basically made up or exaggerated.  I do not deny that she went to Hanoi; nor do I deny that she made strong anti-US statements that served North Vietnamese propaganda.  However, until she is tried in court for her actions and convicted of treason, she's not a traitor.  In all these years, no one has made a successful case against her.  This tells me that's because there is no evidence to support the charge.
> 
> If we truly believe in the Constitution, we have to acknowledge the right of people like Jane Fonda to express themselves no matter how unpopular the statement may be.  Otherwise, citizens will begin to fear expressing themselves; and, I think that our forefathers specifically worded the Constitution to protect that freedom of expression.
> 
> While she's made public apologies for her past actions, which is HER right to do, not everyone has to accept those apologies, which is THEIR right to do.  And while it's been a very long time since she made those statements and took those actions, it's clear that some folks are never going to forgive her.  That's something SHE'S going to have to live with.
> 
> She was not denied due process.  Viewers have the right to express outrage, and QVC certainly has the right to protect its financial interests if letting Fonda appear is going to hit them in the wallet.  That's the beauty of free enterprise and commerce.
> 
> No, I don't condone Fonda's actions in the past, but I defend her right to express her disagreement.  The Constitution very strongly sees to that.  Now, all these years later, the same argument is being used against her:  the right of all of those people she offended and disrespected to exercise their right to express that disagreement in turn.
> 
> Karma's a bitch.



Sorry, but the way I see it, her rights end at the precise point that her expressing her opinion puts our men and women in combat at higher risk.   You can get all technical and legal as you want, and it will not change the fact that she fraternized with the same enemy that fully intended to kill as many of her fellow Americans as they could.

Whether our military should have been there in the first place is an entirely separate debate.  But once we order our people into combat, their well being and survival becomes more important than anybody's political or social opinions about anything.


----------



## Mr_Rockhead

JakeStarkey said:


> You are repeating the drunk's story, rockhead.  And what you believe does not count for squat.  The story is clear, and your interp is wrong.  Listen to the stories of those closest to Kerry.
> 
> Officers are no more inherently reliable in telling the truth than enlisted or NCO ranks.  I saw too many officers convicted by courts martial to believe otherwise.



I used the phrase I believe simply because I could not recall the exact number from Kerrys outfit who originally came out against him.  I said I believed it was about twenty but, according to wiki, it was eleven.  So, even though I recall it being higher, I will go with eleven.

But that does not change the fact that each and every one of them wore the same uniform and came away with just as many decorations as Kerry.  Nope, these men were also heroes and they have at least as much credibility.  And, perhaps, even more because they were willing to put themselves out there without any chance of reward.  They were not running for anything.

Also, the number of veterans signing on against Kerry grew rapidly as his notoriety became known outside of Massachusetts.  There was no internet or Cable News back when these events were unfolding so much of it was just the stuff of local lore until he threw himself into the national spotlight.


----------



## Mr_Rockhead

Toome said:


> I think that much of what is attributed to Jane Fonda's anti-war actions are basically made up or exaggerated.  I do not deny that she went to Hanoi; nor do I deny that she made strong anti-US statements that served North Vietnamese propaganda.  However, until she is tried in court for her actions and convicted of treason, she's not a traitor.  In all these years, no one has made a successful case against her.  This tells me that's because there is no evidence to support the charge.
> 
> If we truly believe in the Constitution, we have to acknowledge the right of people like Jane Fonda to express themselves no matter how unpopular the statement may be.  Otherwise, citizens will begin to fear expressing themselves; and, I think that our forefathers specifically worded the Constitution to protect that freedom of expression.
> 
> ...



Taking an active part in bringing about your countries defeat is not a simple act of protest.

While in Vietnam, Jane recorded many propaganda pieces for the North Vietnamese.  These interviews were designed to do one thing and only one thing &#8211; demoralize American troops.

By comparison, an American woman was convicted of TREASON for doing the exact same thing during WW-II (she was one of the many Tokyo Roses).

So, regardless of whether Fonda was ever charged, there is plenty of evidence (such as the broadcasts) and also a precedent.


----------



## JakeStarkey

Mr_Rockhead said:


> JakeStarkey said:
> 
> 
> 
> You are repeating the drunk's story, rockhead.  And what you believe does not count for squat.  The story is clear, and your interp is wrong.  Listen to the stories of those closest to Kerry.
> 
> Officers are no more inherently reliable in telling the truth than enlisted or NCO ranks.  I saw too many officers convicted by courts martial to believe otherwise.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I used the phrase I believe simply because I could not recall the exact number from Kerrys outfit who originally came out against him.  I said I believed it was about twenty but, according to wiki, it was eleven.  So, even though I recall it being higher, I will go with eleven.
> 
> But that does not change the fact that each and every one of them wore the same uniform and came away with just as many decorations as Kerry.  Nope, these men were also heroes and they have at least as much credibility.  And, perhaps, even more because they were willing to put themselves out there without any chance of reward.  They were not running for anything.
> 
> Also, the number of veterans signing on against Kerry grew rapidly as his notoriety became known outside of Massachusetts.  There was no internet or Cable News back when these events were unfolding so much of it was just the stuff of local lore until he threw himself into the national spotlight.
Click to expand...


The heroes (I can't deny that) were not there.  Kerry's men were.  I believe them before I do the officers or the rear admiral.


----------



## Mr_Rockhead

JakeStarkey said:


> Mr_Rockhead said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JakeStarkey said:
> 
> 
> 
> You are repeating the drunk's story, rockhead.  And what you believe does not count for squat.  The story is clear, and your interp is wrong.  Listen to the stories of those closest to Kerry.
> 
> Officers are no more inherently reliable in telling the truth than enlisted or NCO ranks.  I saw too many officers convicted by courts martial to believe otherwise.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I used the phrase &#8220;I believe&#8221; simply because I could not recall the exact number from Kerry&#8217;s outfit who originally came out against him.  I said I believed it was about twenty but, according to wiki, it was eleven.  So, even though I recall it being higher, I will go with eleven.
> 
> But that does not change the fact that each and every one of them wore the same uniform and came away with just as many decorations as Kerry.  Nope, these men were also heroes and they have at least as much credibility.  And, perhaps, even more because they were willing to put themselves out there without any chance of reward.  They were not running for anything.
> 
> Also, the number of veterans signing on against Kerry grew rapidly as his notoriety became known outside of Massachusetts.  There was no internet or Cable News back when these events were unfolding so much of it was just the stuff of local lore until he threw himself into the national spotlight.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The heroes (I can't deny that) were not there.  Kerry's men were.  I believe them before I do the officers or the rear admiral.
Click to expand...


Sorry, Jake, but I don&#8217;t think you get it.  They were there.  They were commanding the other boats in Kerry&#8217;s squadron.  

Admittedly, they were not on his boat (most of the time) but their boats were right there beside Kerry&#8217;s on the very same missions.  And it was them (and not his crew) who lived and socialized with Kerry when they returned to the base after those missions.  In fact, many of them won their decorations during the exact same battles Kerry won his.

Now, did some of them rally against him for pure political reasons?  Sure, a few.  But there were simply too many of them to attribute such rank motives to all of them.

I try to put myself in their place.  What would it take to get me to sign that public document condemning a fellow vet who fought right beside me?  Since I personally think it really doesn&#8217;t get much more serious than that, I&#8217;m inclined to believe that most of these people truly believe John Kerry did something wrong.

And, almost to a man, they were focused on his antics after he came home.  The side-story crap about his decorations was the part of the story the media chose to sensationalize in an attempt to keep his campaign afloat.  And it almost worked.

So I have no problem with anyone defending Kerry&#8217;s service (especially those in his crew that did).  The navy determined he earned his decorations and, as far as I&#8217;m concerned, he did.  But that does not make him any better (or any more believable) than those who fought right beside him.

Also, as in all walks of life, some turned into alcoholics but most did not.


----------



## JakeStarkey

The men on Kerry's boat say differently.  Those officers were not on Kerry's boat.  If they said those incidents of valor did not occur (remember such actions have to be vetted) at the time, according to those officers, their views were not considered worthy, thus are worthless.  If they said it later, their words really don't matter.


----------



## The Gadfly

This thread is not about John Kerry. It is not about William Calley either. This is about Jane Fonda and her actions. Whether or not those actions legally constituted treason against the United States, one thing I do know: on the Wall are the names of 58,264 of my brothers, and 8 of my sisters who died. At least some of those names are there, as a direct result of Jane Fonda's aid to and encouragement of the NVA and the VC. How many? We can never know, but even if it is only one, that is one too many! We have the freedom to protest, it is true, but the use (or abuse) of that freedom has consequences. In this case that includes the loss of the the lives of young Americans serving this nation. Those names are not statistics, or abstractions; every single on of them belongs to an American, one of us; complete with hopes, dreams, feelings, a family, and a future that will never be. Some consequences!

So, when you brand the soldier with the mark of Cain, when you talk about the blood on his hands and the stains on his soul, I suggest you remember that the hands and souls of some who never fired a shot, or faced one, are not so squeaky clean either; and yes, Janie dear, it will take a lot more than soap, to wash away what's dripping from yours!


----------



## tinydancer

She married Tom Hayden. Nuff said. Cripes I lived those days and I was a freaking liberal that walked away from commie maniacs. 

That's what they were. They were not anti war protestors. Hell's bells, they were pro communist take over of the world.

You had freaking Ayers and Bernie dedicating Prairie Fire to freaking Sirhan Sirhan for heavens sake.

We are not talking just happy left wing campers protesting war. They WANTED and DESIRED for the US and western democracies to be overthrown.

Look up Hayden and how many times he met with the VietCong in Europe.

Sheesh.

People better learn their history.


----------



## Sallow

The Gadfly said:


> Sallow said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Patrick2 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Let's be clear here.  The vietnamese didn't topple the khmer rouge regime because they had a tender concern for the 1/3 of the population being killed by them, they did it because after the end of the vietnam war, the khmer rouge attacked vietnam.  As for Nixon, he ended the war started by democrats.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Democrats? That's arguable. Eisenhower stopped a general election that would have seen a victory for Ho Chi Mihn.
> 
> And it doesn't matter "why' they took the Khmer Rouge out..they took them out. And Nixon ended the war after expanding it and killing over a million Vietnamese.
> 
> And he didn't end it because he wanted to, he ended it because of massive protests.
> 
> Vietnam has pretty much done right by it's people..it's got a vibrant and fast growing economy.  Surprisingly enough..it didn't hold any malice against America either..for what was..a crime and a genocide.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Really, Sallow? 65,000 executions in the "re-education camps"? How about the "boat people"- *did your commie pals do right by them? *How about the Dega ("Montagnards", to you)? How are THEY being treated by the regime, these days? Do you even care? And to think some of you call ME a "baby killer"! What's ironic, is that some of us American soldiers who supposedly "did nothing but commit war crimes" in Vietnam, had and have more compassion for the Vietnamese people (the innocent civilians) than you liberals have ever had!
> 
> By the way, while we are setting the record straight, most of us consider Lt. Calley a sorry disgrace, to the army, to the officer corps, and to America. The record shows that Calley was at best a marginal officer, lacking the requisite qualities of leadership, incompetent, negligent, and unable or unwilling to maintain discipline in his unit; in essence a failure, who under better circumstances would have been weeded out at OCS, and should never have been given command of an infantry platoon. I knew a few of his species in Vietnam, and they were universally despised, though fortunately, most of them never did anything remotely like what Calley did. So far as this former officer is concerned, Calley is NOT a hero, NOT a victim, NOT a martyr, and NOT a scapegoat; just a simple, miserable, wretched failure.
Click to expand...


I have no commie pals, asshole. And if you were so fucking worried about "executions" and the other messes left by a war crime..then maybe you should have supported the elections taking place in the first place.

Or are you really so fucking stupid that you think that the aftermath of a 15 year was going to be pretty. Eh?

And Calley wasn't a "failure" he was a war criminal. Like the many war criminals that commanded him. They massacred a village and gang raped children. THATS what really happened. Marginalizing it, is DISGUSTING. And this event was NOT unique.

Asshole.


----------



## tinydancer

Sallow said:


> The Gadfly said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sallow said:
> 
> 
> 
> Democrats? That's arguable. Eisenhower stopped a general election that would have seen a victory for Ho Chi Mihn.
> 
> And it doesn't matter "why' they took the Khmer Rouge out..they took them out. And Nixon ended the war after expanding it and killing over a million Vietnamese.
> 
> And he didn't end it because he wanted to, he ended it because of massive protests.
> 
> Vietnam has pretty much done right by it's people..it's got a vibrant and fast growing economy.  Surprisingly enough..it didn't hold any malice against America either..for what was..a crime and a genocide.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Really, Sallow? 65,000 executions in the "re-education camps"? How about the "boat people"- *did your commie pals do right by them? *How about the Dega ("Montagnards", to you)? How are THEY being treated by the regime, these days? Do you even care? And to think some of you call ME a "baby killer"! What's ironic, is that some of us American soldiers who supposedly "did nothing but commit war crimes" in Vietnam, had and have more compassion for the Vietnamese people (the innocent civilians) than you liberals have ever had!
> 
> By the way, while we are setting the record straight, most of us consider Lt. Calley a sorry disgrace, to the army, to the officer corps, and to America. The record shows that Calley was at best a marginal officer, lacking the requisite qualities of leadership, incompetent, negligent, and unable or unwilling to maintain discipline in his unit; in essence a failure, who under better circumstances would have been weeded out at OCS, and should never have been given command of an infantry platoon. I knew a few of his species in Vietnam, and they were universally despised, though fortunately, most of them never did anything remotely like what Calley did. So far as this former officer is concerned, Calley is NOT a hero, NOT a victim, NOT a martyr, and NOT a scapegoat; just a simple, miserable, wretched failure.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I have no commie pals, asshole. And if you were so fucking worried about "executions" and the other messes left by a war crime..then maybe you should have supported the elections taking place in the first place.
> 
> Or are you really so fucking stupid that you think that the aftermath of a 15 year was going to be pretty. Eh?
> 
> And Calley wasn't a "failure" he was a war criminal. Like the many war criminals that commanded him. They massacred a village and gang raped children. THATS what really happened. Marginalizing it, is DISGUSTING. And this event was NOT unique.
> 
> Asshole.
Click to expand...


LBJ made a fortune. Take your hate out on Democrats.  Call all the Dems vile and horrid because they were.And they are making a fortune again propogating all the new wars.

Hello Libya????????

I was a kid in those days. Who did I protest? Dems. The most disgusting pieces of shit on the planet. President JOHNSON D YES D made a killing off of 58,000 plus AMERICAN LIVES

Chicago didn't happen for nothing man.


----------



## Sunni Man

R





Mr_Rockhead said:


> Taking an active part in bringing about your countries defeat is not a simple act of protest.
> 
> While in Vietnam, Jane recorded many propaganda pieces for the North Vietnamese.  These interviews were designed to do one thing and only one thing  demoralize American troops.
> 
> By comparison, an American woman was convicted of TREASON for doing the exact same thing during WW-II (she was one of the many Tokyo Roses).
> 
> So, regardless of whether Fonda was ever charged, there is plenty of evidence (such as the broadcasts) and also a precedent.


 The reason that Tokyo Rose's actions were treasonous was because we were in a "declared" war.

 Which was not the case concerning Vietnam or Jane Fonda's trip there as an American citizen.


----------



## Sallow

The Gadfly said:


> This thread is not about John Kerry. It is not about William Calley either. This is about Jane Fonda and her actions. Whether or not those actions legally constituted treason against the United States, one thing I do know: on the Wall are the names of 58,264 of my brothers, and 8 of my sisters who died. At least some of those names are there, as a direct result of Jane Fonda's aid to and encouragement of the NVA and the VC. How many? We can never know, but even if it is only one, that is one too many! We have the freedom to protest, it is true, but the use (or abuse) of that freedom has consequences. In this case that includes the loss of the the lives of young Americans serving this nation. Those names are not statistics, or abstractions; every single on of them belongs to an American, one of us; complete with hopes, dreams, feelings, a family, and a future that will never be. Some consequences!
> 
> So, when you brand the soldier with the mark of Cain, when you talk about the blood on his hands and the stains on his soul, I suggest you remember that the hands and souls of some who never fired a shot, or faced one, are not so squeaky clean either; and yes, Janie dear, it will take a lot more than soap, to wash away what's dripping from yours!



This is something symptomatic of you and your fascist friends. Like Lee Atwater you guys take something like expressing freedom of speech..and conflate into treason.

And you do things like marginalize real treason..like Ronald Reagan making a deal with the Iranian government, before he had any authority to do so..or funding the nun raping Contras in violation of legislation by Congress...as "No big deal".

And you guys hold up pissant liars like John O'Neill as some kind of clariion of truth telling.

Fucking disgusting.


----------



## Sallow

tinydancer said:


> Sallow said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Gadfly said:
> 
> 
> 
> Really, Sallow? 65,000 executions in the "re-education camps"? How about the "boat people"- *did your commie pals do right by them? *How about the Dega ("Montagnards", to you)? How are THEY being treated by the regime, these days? Do you even care? And to think some of you call ME a "baby killer"! What's ironic, is that some of us American soldiers who supposedly "did nothing but commit war crimes" in Vietnam, had and have more compassion for the Vietnamese people (the innocent civilians) than you liberals have ever had!
> 
> By the way, while we are setting the record straight, most of us consider Lt. Calley a sorry disgrace, to the army, to the officer corps, and to America. The record shows that Calley was at best a marginal officer, lacking the requisite qualities of leadership, incompetent, negligent, and unable or unwilling to maintain discipline in his unit; in essence a failure, who under better circumstances would have been weeded out at OCS, and should never have been given command of an infantry platoon. I knew a few of his species in Vietnam, and they were universally despised, though fortunately, most of them never did anything remotely like what Calley did. So far as this former officer is concerned, Calley is NOT a hero, NOT a victim, NOT a martyr, and NOT a scapegoat; just a simple, miserable, wretched failure.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I have no commie pals, asshole. And if you were so fucking worried about "executions" and the other messes left by a war crime..then maybe you should have supported the elections taking place in the first place.
> 
> Or are you really so fucking stupid that you think that the aftermath of a 15 year was going to be pretty. Eh?
> 
> And Calley wasn't a "failure" he was a war criminal. Like the many war criminals that commanded him. They massacred a village and gang raped children. THATS what really happened. Marginalizing it, is DISGUSTING. And this event was NOT unique.
> 
> Asshole.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> LBJ made a fortune. Take your hate out on Democrats.  Call all the Dems vile and horrid because they were.And they are making a fortune again propogating all the new wars.
> 
> Hello Libya????????
> 
> I was a kid in those days. Who did I protest? Dems. The most disgusting pieces of shit on the planet. President JOHNSON D YES D made a killing off of 58,000 plus AMERICAN LIVES
> 
> Chicago didn't happen for nothing man.
Click to expand...


I've always held contempt for LBJ for his role in Vietnam. Any list of America's worst presidents..I put LBJ in..exclusively for that reason.

That's not something you guys ever do.

Admit fault.

Nixon presided over as much..or more death and destruction as LBJ.

And lied about many things. Like the secret bombings of Cambodia and Laos.

I never ever see any right wing threads about that.

Or Eisenhower stopping the general elections.

Nothing.


----------



## tinydancer

Sallow said:


> tinydancer said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sallow said:
> 
> 
> 
> I have no commie pals, asshole. And if you were so fucking worried about "executions" and the other messes left by a war crime..then maybe you should have supported the elections taking place in the first place.
> 
> Or are you really so fucking stupid that you think that the aftermath of a 15 year was going to be pretty. Eh?
> 
> And Calley wasn't a "failure" he was a war criminal. Like the many war criminals that commanded him. They massacred a village and gang raped children. THATS what really happened. Marginalizing it, is DISGUSTING. And this event was NOT unique.
> 
> Asshole.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> LBJ made a fortune. Take your hate out on Democrats.  Call all the Dems vile and horrid because they were.And they are making a fortune again propogating all the new wars.
> 
> Hello Libya????????
> 
> I was a kid in those days. Who did I protest? Dems. The most disgusting pieces of shit on the planet. President JOHNSON D YES D made a killing off of 58,000 plus AMERICAN LIVES
> 
> Chicago didn't happen for nothing man.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I've always held contempt for LBJ for his role in Vietnam. Any list of America's worst presidents..I put LBJ in..exclusively for that reason.
> 
> That's not something you guys ever do.
> 
> Admit fault.
> 
> Nixon presided over as much..or more death and destruction as LBJ.
> 
> And lied about many things. Like the secret bombings of Cambodia and Laos.
> 
> I never ever see any right wing threads about that.
> 
> Or Eisenhower stopping the general elections.
> 
> Nothing.
Click to expand...


YOU GUYS? Sallow I talk it like it is. And what it was. When JFK was trying to keep a lid on it, he was to be admired. And yes, we had the cold war going on at the time and we were all trying to fight back against communist aggression.

Let's be real here. I don't want to play 20 20 hindsight here. That's insane. 

But let's look at the players we are talking about. Hayden and Fonda were pro communist crazy left wing american hating pieces of shit. so were ayers and bernie.

I lived those days. these facts are not under dispute my man.

The war is really not the point in question here. It is the reaction to it. Where is Fonda today against action in Libya. Jodi? How many can I name?

Silence on Libya.....

Crickets.....


Hypomothertruckencrites.....


----------



## tinydancer

Re: Nixon upping the offensive. He had NO choice after the Tet offensive. None. He came into office and he had to flex to save those who were left.

Who were the aggresors? Let's get this right. TheCommunist  North was invading the South. Can anyone spell R E A L I T Y here?


----------



## JakeStarkey

Reagan, by the lame stream far right's reasoning, committed treason over Iran-Contra.


----------



## The Gadfly

Sallow said:


> The Gadfly said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sallow said:
> 
> 
> 
> Democrats? That's arguable. Eisenhower stopped a general election that would have seen a victory for Ho Chi Mihn.
> 
> And it doesn't matter "why' they took the Khmer Rouge out..they took them out. And Nixon ended the war after expanding it and killing over a million Vietnamese.
> 
> And he didn't end it because he wanted to, he ended it because of massive protests.
> 
> Vietnam has pretty much done right by it's people..it's got a vibrant and fast growing economy.  Surprisingly enough..it didn't hold any malice against America either..for what was..a crime and a genocide.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Really, Sallow? 65,000 executions in the "re-education camps"? How about the "boat people"- *did your commie pals do right by them? *How about the Dega ("Montagnards", to you)? How are THEY being treated by the regime, these days? Do you even care? And to think some of you call ME a "baby killer"! What's ironic, is that some of us American soldiers who supposedly "did nothing but commit war crimes" in Vietnam, had and have more compassion for the Vietnamese people (the innocent civilians) than you liberals have ever had!
> 
> By the way, while we are setting the record straight, most of us consider Lt. Calley a sorry disgrace, to the army, to the officer corps, and to America. The record shows that Calley was at best a marginal officer, lacking the requisite qualities of leadership, incompetent, negligent, and unable or unwilling to maintain discipline in his unit; in essence a failure, who under better circumstances would have been weeded out at OCS, and should never have been given command of an infantry platoon. I knew a few of his species in Vietnam, and they were universally despised, though fortunately, most of them never did anything remotely like what Calley did. So far as this former officer is concerned, Calley is NOT a hero, NOT a victim, NOT a martyr, and NOT a scapegoat; just a simple, miserable, wretched failure.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I have no commie pals, asshole. And if you were so fucking worried about "executions" and the other messes left by a war crime..then maybe you should have supported the elections taking place in the first place.
> 
> Or are you really so fucking stupid that you think that the aftermath of a 15 year was going to be pretty. Eh?
> 
> And Calley wasn't a "failure" he was a war criminal. Like the many war criminals that commanded him. They massacred a village and gang raped children. THATS what really happened. Marginalizing it, is DISGUSTING. And this event was NOT unique.
> 
> Asshole.
Click to expand...


When you defend a tyrannical communist government , I take that to mean you consider them your "pals".

Second, I find it ironic that the Left always brings up Calley; you practically have made him the poster boy for all American soldiers in Vietnam. Thanks to him, all of us have been labeled murderers and baby killers. Well, Calley WAS a failure and a disgrace, and yes, I'll throw in war criminal as well, because what he and his men did is definitely a war crime. Everybody remembers Calley. However, there WERE Americans at My Lai that day who did not commit atrocities, or stand there and do nothing while others committed mass murder. I never hear Hugh Thompson mentioned, and yet, he ought to be remembered by you, and everyone else,  for what he did. I want to know if you or anyone else here remembers WO1 Thompson, because he represents the other side of the story of My Lai,and while we are telling the truth, we ought to tell ALL of it.


----------



## JakeStarkey

The Gadfly said:


> Sallow said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Gadfly said:
> 
> 
> 
> Really, Sallow? 65,000 executions in the "re-education camps"? How about the "boat people"- *did your commie pals do right by them? *How about the Dega ("Montagnards", to you)? How are THEY being treated by the regime, these days? Do you even care? And to think some of you call ME a "baby killer"! What's ironic, is that some of us American soldiers who supposedly "did nothing but commit war crimes" in Vietnam, had and have more compassion for the Vietnamese people (the innocent civilians) than you liberals have ever had!
> 
> By the way, while we are setting the record straight, most of us consider Lt. Calley a sorry disgrace, to the army, to the officer corps, and to America. The record shows that Calley was at best a marginal officer, lacking the requisite qualities of leadership, incompetent, negligent, and unable or unwilling to maintain discipline in his unit; in essence a failure, who under better circumstances would have been weeded out at OCS, and should never have been given command of an infantry platoon. I knew a few of his species in Vietnam, and they were universally despised, though fortunately, most of them never did anything remotely like what Calley did. So far as this former officer is concerned, Calley is NOT a hero, NOT a victim, NOT a martyr, and NOT a scapegoat; just a simple, miserable, wretched failure.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I have no commie pals, asshole. And if you were so fucking worried about "executions" and the other messes left by a war crime..then maybe you should have supported the elections taking place in the first place.
> 
> Or are you really so fucking stupid that you think that the aftermath of a 15 year was going to be pretty. Eh?
> 
> And Calley wasn't a "failure" he was a war criminal. Like the many war criminals that commanded him. They massacred a village and gang raped children. THATS what really happened. Marginalizing it, is DISGUSTING. And this event was NOT unique.
> 
> Asshole.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> SNIP: absolutely nothing .
Click to expand...


The Gadfly is a Far Righty Extremist Fascist and is best treated that way.  Nuff said.


----------



## Sallow

The Gadfly said:


> Sallow said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Gadfly said:
> 
> 
> 
> Really, Sallow? 65,000 executions in the "re-education camps"? How about the "boat people"- *did your commie pals do right by them? *How about the Dega ("Montagnards", to you)? How are THEY being treated by the regime, these days? Do you even care? And to think some of you call ME a "baby killer"! What's ironic, is that some of us American soldiers who supposedly "did nothing but commit war crimes" in Vietnam, had and have more compassion for the Vietnamese people (the innocent civilians) than you liberals have ever had!
> 
> By the way, while we are setting the record straight, most of us consider Lt. Calley a sorry disgrace, to the army, to the officer corps, and to America. The record shows that Calley was at best a marginal officer, lacking the requisite qualities of leadership, incompetent, negligent, and unable or unwilling to maintain discipline in his unit; in essence a failure, who under better circumstances would have been weeded out at OCS, and should never have been given command of an infantry platoon. I knew a few of his species in Vietnam, and they were universally despised, though fortunately, most of them never did anything remotely like what Calley did. So far as this former officer is concerned, Calley is NOT a hero, NOT a victim, NOT a martyr, and NOT a scapegoat; just a simple, miserable, wretched failure.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I have no commie pals, asshole. And if you were so fucking worried about "executions" and the other messes left by a war crime..then maybe you should have supported the elections taking place in the first place.
> 
> Or are you really so fucking stupid that you think that the aftermath of a 15 year was going to be pretty. Eh?
> 
> And Calley wasn't a "failure" he was a war criminal. Like the many war criminals that commanded him. They massacred a village and gang raped children. THATS what really happened. Marginalizing it, is DISGUSTING. And this event was NOT unique.
> 
> Asshole.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> *When you defend a tyrannical communist government , I take that to mean you consider them your "pals".*
> 
> Second, I find it ironic that the Left always brings up Calley; you practically have made him the poster boy for all American soldiers in Vietnam. Thanks to him, all of us have been labeled murderers and baby killers. Well, Calley WAS a failure and a disgrace, and yes, I'll throw in war criminal as well, because what he and his men did is definitely a war crime. Everybody remembers Calley. However, there WERE Americans at My Lai that day who did not commit atrocities, or stand there and do nothing while others committed mass murder. I never hear Hugh Thompson mentioned, and yet, he ought to be remembered by you, and everyone else,  for what he did. I want to know if you or anyone else here remembers WO1 Thompson, because he represents the other side of the story of My Lai,and while we are telling the truth, we ought to tell ALL of it.
Click to expand...


I defend the people of most any country coming up with popular self rule. That's what Vietnam was doing. That's what they've been trying to do for almost 1,000 years.

They wanted an election. They earned it. They helped fight the Japanese during WWII. They didn't get it. What they got was invasion.

That something you want to defend?

Cheers.


----------



## Sallow

JakeStarkey said:


> Reagan, by the lame stream far right's reasoning, committed treason over Iran-Contra.



Not only their reasoning. Any reasoning.

Fucking Democrats were to spineless to impeach.


----------



## tinydancer

Sallow said:


> The Gadfly said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sallow said:
> 
> 
> 
> I have no commie pals, asshole. And if you were so fucking worried about "executions" and the other messes left by a war crime..then maybe you should have supported the elections taking place in the first place.
> 
> Or are you really so fucking stupid that you think that the aftermath of a 15 year was going to be pretty. Eh?
> 
> And Calley wasn't a "failure" he was a war criminal. Like the many war criminals that commanded him. They massacred a village and gang raped children. THATS what really happened. Marginalizing it, is DISGUSTING. And this event was NOT unique.
> 
> Asshole.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *When you defend a tyrannical communist government , I take that to mean you consider them your "pals".*
> 
> Second, I find it ironic that the Left always brings up Calley; you practically have made him the poster boy for all American soldiers in Vietnam. Thanks to him, all of us have been labeled murderers and baby killers. Well, Calley WAS a failure and a disgrace, and yes, I'll throw in war criminal as well, because what he and his men did is definitely a war crime. Everybody remembers Calley. However, there WERE Americans at My Lai that day who did not commit atrocities, or stand there and do nothing while others committed mass murder. I never hear Hugh Thompson mentioned, and yet, he ought to be remembered by you, and everyone else,  for what he did. I want to know if you or anyone else here remembers WO1 Thompson, because he represents the other side of the story of My Lai,and while we are telling the truth, we ought to tell ALL of it.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I defend the people of most any country coming up with popular self rule. That's what Vietnam was doing. That's what they've been trying to do for almost 1,000 years.
> 
> They wanted an election. They earned it. They helped fight the Japanese during WWII. They didn't get it. What they got was invasion.
> 
> That something you want to defend?
> 
> Cheers.
Click to expand...


Are you really trying to defend the Communist North and their invasion of the south as a Democratic action?

Let's get real here. Ho was the aggressor. Ho invaded the south. Of this there is no doubt.

Why are we trying to spin this? Commie North vs sort of democratic south. Oh and btw, lets talk about all of this?

Part of the invasion of the south was based on the "whoopsies" we killed all the farmers in North Vietnam and we need the rice paddies in the south because we fucked up as commies always do.

The Cong offed all the farmers. Did you know that? I did. They blamed the farmers for a famine.

oh looky, global warming viet cong blaming the farmers for not forseeing a drought and a famine.

Lefties never change do they?


----------



## The Gadfly

Sallow said:


> The Gadfly said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sallow said:
> 
> 
> 
> I have no commie pals, asshole. And if you were so fucking worried about "executions" and the other messes left by a war crime..then maybe you should have supported the elections taking place in the first place.
> 
> Or are you really so fucking stupid that you think that the aftermath of a 15 year was going to be pretty. Eh?
> 
> And Calley wasn't a "failure" he was a war criminal. Like the many war criminals that commanded him. They massacred a village and gang raped children. THATS what really happened. Marginalizing it, is DISGUSTING. And this event was NOT unique.
> 
> Asshole.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *When you defend a tyrannical communist government , I take that to mean you consider them your "pals".*
> 
> Second, I find it ironic that the Left always brings up Calley; you practically have made him the poster boy for all American soldiers in Vietnam. Thanks to him, all of us have been labeled murderers and baby killers. Well, Calley WAS a failure and a disgrace, and yes, I'll throw in war criminal as well, because what he and his men did is definitely a war crime. Everybody remembers Calley. However, there WERE Americans at My Lai that day who did not commit atrocities, or stand there and do nothing while others committed mass murder. I never hear Hugh Thompson mentioned, and yet, he ought to be remembered by you, and everyone else,  for what he did. I want to know if you or anyone else here remembers WO1 Thompson, because he represents the other side of the story of My Lai,and while we are telling the truth, we ought to tell ALL of it.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I defend the people of most any country coming up with popular self rule. That's what Vietnam was doing. That's what they've been trying to do for almost 1,000 years.
> 
> They wanted an election. They earned it. They helped fight the Japanese during WWII. They didn't get it. What they got was invasion.
> 
> That something you want to defend?
> 
> Cheers.
Click to expand...


Bullshit! Ho got his country, the DRV. Then, the communist egomaniacal dictator decided he wanted it all, so he INVADED the RVN (South Vietnam). Indigenous freedom fighters, my arse!  Most of the VC were NORTH VIETNAMESE soldiers, infiltrated into the south, a fact most of them readily admitted. They recruited there by terror and intimidation, the murdering, torturing, sacks of shit! Thank you, but I'll save my tears for the innocent people of South Vietnam, who we tried to protect from communist terror; real "freedom fighters" don't brutalize their own people (which even Jake admits they did!).

I see you don't want to discuss Hugh Thompson. No wonder, the idea that even in the carnage of My Lai, an American remembered what an American soldier is supposed to be doesn't fit with your theory that we were all mass murderers. For those who want to know:

WO1 Hugh Thompson was flying low-level recon in an OH-23 Raven Helicopter at the group of hamlets (including My Lai) collectively code-named "Pinkville" on the morning of 16 March, 1968. With him were crew chief SPC Glen Andreotta, and door gunner SPC Larry Colburn. The chopper was not receiving enemy fire, but Thompson spotted two suspected VC (males of military age, which is what we normally looked for). He and his crew secured these, and flew them back to base for interrogation.They also spotted a group of wounded Vietnamese, which they marked with a green smoke canister (indicating they needed help).Upon returning to the vicinity around 0900 hours, Thompson and his crew noticed that the Vietnamese they had marked were now dead. Hovering low, they saw a wounded Vietnamese female, then saw an American captain (later identified as Medina) walk up and shoot her dead. ( CPT Medina later claimed he thought she had a grenade). They also noticed a large number of bodies, many apparently women and children. (That would indicate something was wrong; a fight that big would have normally been accompanied by enemy fire at the helicopter, and armed VC scurrying around; there was no evidence of either). Thompson then radioed the accompanying UH-1 gunships escorting him that something wasn't right and that "There looks like a whole lot of unnecessary killing going own down there". (This was anything but routine, which indicates that Thompson recognized there was NOTHING "Normal" about what was going on). Seeing a number of dead and wounded Vietnamese in a ditch, with American troops nearby (Calley's platoon), Thompson landed, dismounted, and confronted SGT Mitchell, and subsequently, LT Calley, asking what could be done to help the Vietnamese in the ditch. As Thompson recalled, Mitchell said something to the effect that all that could be done was put them out of their misery. He asked Calley what was going on, only to be basically told it was "none of your business", and "I've got my orders...". He pointed out to Calley that "These are....unarmed civilians, sir.". Calley told him to get back in the helicopter. As they flew off,  Andreotta reported that Mitchell was shooting the people in the ditch. Thompson noticed another group of Vietnamese running for the cover of a bunker, pursued by American troops (2nd Platoon). Thompson landed the chopper between the Americans and the Vietnamese, tellling his crew to train their guns on the American troops, and "If those bastards open up on me or these people, you open up on them! Promise me!" He then approached LT Brooks, asking for help getting the Vietnamese out of the bunker; Brooks offered to "help get them out with a hand grenade." Thompson told Brooks "I can do better" and eventually coaxed the Vietnamese out of the bunker, then called for the two Hueys to land and fly them to safety. Thompson stayed with the Vietnamese until they were evacuated. While en route to base, Thompson and his crew noticed around a hundred Vietnamese dead or dying in another irrigation ditch. They landed, got out and went through the ditch, finding a blood-soaked but apparently unhurt Vietnamese child, who they loaded on the OH-23 and flew to the ARVN hospital at Quang Ngai. Upon returning to base, Thompson, furious at what he had seen reported the entire incident to his commanding officer. Shorty after, the word reached the commander of the task force, LTC Barker, and the killing finally stopped.

They gave Hugh Thompson  the DFC; the citation was a fabricated lie, and Thompson trashed it. He later testified in the investigations that followed, including congressional hearings. His reward was hate mail, death threats, and a public upbraiding from the head of the House Armed Services Committee, who said he was the only American at My Lai who ought to be court martialed, for training his guns on American troops, and tried (unsuccessfully) to have it done. It took thirty years for the decency and heroism of Hugh Thompson and his crew to be recognized, but finally, they all received the Soldier's Medal, the Army's highest award for bravery not involving direct combat with the enemy. Glen Andreotta got his posthumously (he was killed in action, 8 April, 1968). I would think those men would be just as much heroes to you, as they are to me, if not even more so; but then again, that might mess with the comfortable little stereotype, or maybe, infamy is easier to remember than honor. Either way, it's a damn shame, because whether you believe it or not, there were a hell of a lot more Hugh Thompsons, Glen Andreottas, and Larry Colburns in Vietnam, than there were Calleys and Medinas; even if most of them didn't have to go nearly as far to prove it, as those three did. The villains live in infamy, the heroes are forgotten, honor's cast aside, the American soldier of Vietnam is still a drug-besotted, murdering, war criminal and slacker, and the beat goes on, and on, and on.....


----------



## Lovebears65

Sallow said:


> Vietnam was a war crime..and a Genocide.
> 
> What Fonda did should have made her a hero.
> 
> I don't know how any American can get behind the slaughter that was Vietnam. Millions of innocent people were killed as a result of America's invasion. Fonda's only problem was that she didn't see that the troops were as trapped into this bullshit as the Vietnamese.


 But why condem the people who went to fight, Its not like they had a choice and she did  calling them murderers and such..  You dont have to support the war but at least support the troops NO MATTER what the war is. Because they have no choice where and when they go


----------



## tinydancer

The people who defend the likes of Fonda, Hayden, Ayers and Dorhn defy any logic I can apply to their defense that they give these people.

All of the above are not only anti American, they are pro communist. I can argue this forever. Because I tell the truth.


----------



## JakeStarkey

The lame stream far right agenda-driven hoss and hosses here have never read the Pentagon Papers.

Listen up, morons, America was defending corporate profit structures in Vietnam 90%, democracy 10%.

We lost because the SVN leadership was as corrupt as the Tea Party and Righty Extremist Fascists in America today.  You morons lost this battle in the 1970s and you will lose it the twenty teens.  History will rub you out.


----------



## José

> Originally posted by *The Gadfly*
> When you defend a tyrannical communist government , I take that to mean you consider them your "pals".



Ssheeesh... you guys are dense or what? We might as well be debating Vietnam with a piece of wood, Jake/Sallow...

Small, babbling children of the USMB... Pay attention to Uncle Joe now!!

Nobody here is defending comunism...

Everybody who believes in the modern secular, democratic state created by the founders of America (*IN THEORY, NOT IN PRACTICE!!*) would love to see  the most legitimate vietnamese national heroes like Ho and Giap spousing the same ideals and turning a united Vietnam into an open, democratic society.

The only thing we are saying is the obvious:

*We are not Vietnamese!!

Our parents and grandparents were not Vietnamese!!

Therefore, it's not for us nor anybody to choose who should be the national heroes of Vietnam, their political leaders or decide the historical course followed by that asian nation!!

José, Sallow, Jake, Gadfly, France and America had no right to have a say in the matter. This was the absolute prerogative of the people of Vietnam!!*


----------



## José

> Originally posted by *tinydancer*
> Are you really trying to defend the Communist North and their invasion of the south as a Democratic action?



No, tinybrain!!

What Sallow is trying (but failing miserably) to do is put into your skulls the fact that the entire war was the direct result of France and America's disastrous decision to deny the vietnamese people the right to self-determination.

*The same right to self determination the people of Vietnam fully respected, when, 200 years ago, the american people decided to create a racist, sexist and classist dictatorship in North America under the command of General George Washington!!*


----------



## José

> Originally posted by *The Gadfly*
> Bullshit! Ho got his country, the DRV. Then, the communist egomaniacal dictator decided he wanted it all, so he INVADED the RVN (South Vietnam).



Yeah right!!

The very same people who, if allowed by France, America and their puppet state in the South, would vote massively for Ho Chi Minh in 1955-1960, suddenly and mysteriously, changed allegiances and started hating their greatest independence hero in less than 2 years.

The lengths people will go to delegitimise a grassroots national independence movement never ceases to amaze me.


----------



## The Gadfly

The Gadfly said:


> Calley might have been the worst culprit, but not the only one; IMO, some other officers were guilty of dereliction of duty, or worse. The whole thing still reeks, and was definitely NOT "normal"; not in my experience. Hugh Thompson said years later he could never forgive the men of that company for what they did that day. I can't either.* There is no way you can justify something like that, no way at all.*





Sallow said:


> The Gadfly said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sallow said:
> 
> 
> 
> Democrats? That's arguable. Eisenhower stopped a general election that would have seen a victory for Ho Chi Mihn.
> 
> And it doesn't matter "why' they took the Khmer Rouge out..they took them out. And Nixon ended the war after expanding it and killing over a million Vietnamese.
> 
> And he didn't end it because he wanted to, he ended it because of massive protests.
> 
> Vietnam has pretty much done right by it's people..it's got a vibrant and fast growing economy.  Surprisingly enough..it didn't hold any malice against America either..for what was..a crime and a genocide.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Really, Sallow? 65,000 executions in the "re-education camps"? How about the "boat people"- *did your commie pals do right by them? *How about the Dega ("Montagnards", to you)? How are THEY being treated by the regime, these days? Do you even care? And to think some of you call ME a "baby killer"! What's ironic, is that some of us American soldiers who supposedly "did nothing but commit war crimes" in Vietnam, had and have more compassion for the Vietnamese people (the innocent civilians) than you liberals have ever had!
> 
> By the way, while we are setting the record straight, most of us consider Lt. Calley a sorry disgrace, to the army, to the officer corps, and to America. The record shows that Calley was at best a marginal officer, lacking the requisite qualities of leadership, incompetent, negligent, and unable or unwilling to maintain discipline in his unit; in essence a failure, who under better circumstances would have been weeded out at OCS, and should never have been given command of an infantry platoon. I knew a few of his species in Vietnam, and they were universally despised, though fortunately, most of them never did anything remotely like what Calley did. So far as this former officer is concerned, Calley is NOT a hero, NOT a victim, NOT a martyr, and NOT a scapegoat; just a simple, miserable, wretched failure.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I have no commie pals, asshole. And if you were so fucking worried about "executions" and the other messes left by a war crime..then maybe you should have supported the elections taking place in the first place.
> 
> Or are you really so fucking stupid that you think that the aftermath of a 15 year was going to be pretty. Eh?
> 
> And Calley wasn't a "failure" he was a war criminal. Like the many war criminals that commanded him. They massacred a village and gang raped children. THATS what really happened. Marginalizing it, is DISGUSTING. And this event was NOT unique.
> 
> Asshole.
Click to expand...


Next time, try reading what I post, instead of just the parts you want to attack. Does what I posted a couple of pages back (quoted above for your convenience) sound like "MARGINALIZING" what happened at My Lai? What's the matter; I didn't use quite the ideologically correct words to describe Calley, since I did not specifically say "WAR CRIMINAL"? Oh, do excuse me for being so terribly insensitive....


----------



## José

> Originally posted by *The Gadfly*
> Indigenous freedom fighters, my arse! Most of the VC were NORTH VIETNAMESE soldiers, infiltrated into the south, a fact most of them readily admitted.



Of course, some of them "came" from North Vietnam, genius!!

After France created the totally illegitimate state of South Vietnam many south vietnamese went into exile in the north.



> Many of the Vietcong's core members were "regroupees," southern Vietminh who had resettled in the North after the Geneva Accord (1954).
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viet_Cong


----------



## Dr Grump

tinydancer said:


> Dr Grump said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> tinydancer said:
> 
> 
> 
> She was just your better known anti American pro communist at the time. She believed in violence and winning a war. Hanoi Jane was just cheering on a different side called the Viet Cong.
> 
> She was no peacenik. Jane believed in communist takeovers of countries.
> 
> I guess you could call her a super patriotic North Vietnamese clown.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You don't have a clue do you TD...or are you a troll?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I guess you missed the well known quote I put up of Hanoi Jane. The one where she says we should all fall to our knees and pray that one day we can all be communists?
> 
> 1970. Speaking to students at the University of Michigan.
Click to expand...


So you grab a quote from 41 years ago and run with it? How old are you?


----------



## Dr Grump

tinydancer said:


> Sallow said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Gadfly said:
> 
> 
> 
> *When you defend a tyrannical communist government , I take that to mean you consider them your "pals".*
> 
> Second, I find it ironic that the Left always brings up Calley; you practically have made him the poster boy for all American soldiers in Vietnam. Thanks to him, all of us have been labeled murderers and baby killers. Well, Calley WAS a failure and a disgrace, and yes, I'll throw in war criminal as well, because what he and his men did is definitely a war crime. Everybody remembers Calley. However, there WERE Americans at My Lai that day who did not commit atrocities, or stand there and do nothing while others committed mass murder. I never hear Hugh Thompson mentioned, and yet, he ought to be remembered by you, and everyone else,  for what he did. I want to know if you or anyone else here remembers WO1 Thompson, because he represents the other side of the story of My Lai,and while we are telling the truth, we ought to tell ALL of it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I defend the people of most any country coming up with popular self rule. That's what Vietnam was doing. That's what they've been trying to do for almost 1,000 years.
> 
> They wanted an election. They earned it. They helped fight the Japanese during WWII. They didn't get it. What they got was invasion.
> 
> That something you want to defend?
> 
> Cheers.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Are you really trying to defend the Communist North and their invasion of the south as a Democratic action?
> 
> Let's get real here. Ho was the aggressor. Ho invaded the south. Of this there is no doubt.
> 
> Why are we trying to spin this? Commie North vs sort of democratic south. Oh and btw, lets talk about all of this?
> 
> Part of the invasion of the south was based on the "whoopsies" we killed all the farmers in North Vietnam and we need the rice paddies in the south because we fucked up as commies always do.
> 
> The Cong offed all the farmers. Did you know that? I did. They blamed the farmers for a famine.
> 
> oh looky, global warming viet cong blaming the farmers for not forseeing a drought and a famine.
> 
> Lefties never change do they?
Click to expand...


If you honestly believe the South was democratic, I've got a bridge to sell you in Brooklyn...


----------



## The Gadfly

JakeStarkey said:


> The lame stream far right agenda-driven hoss and hosses here have never read the Pentagon Papers.
> 
> Listen up, morons, America was defending corporate profit structures in Vietnam 90%, democracy 10%.
> 
> We lost because the SVN leadership was as corrupt as the Tea Party and Righty Extremist Fascists in America today.  You morons lost this battle in the 1970s and you will lose it the twenty teens.  History will rub you out.



Oh, I've read them. And I would have LOVED to have had an honest stable, South Vietnamese government for an ally, AND a National Command Authority which could actually locate its collective arse, much less get its collective head out of said arse long enough to have some idea of what it wanted me and my fellow soldiers to accomplish, and just the slightest bit of a clue how it expected us to accomplish it, AND, oh by the way, ARVN counterparts who were actually reliable, and did not engage in undesirable (and illegal) extracurricular activities - little things like that.  Unfortunately, my superiors were not in the habit of asking a mere O-3 what he would like to have....gee, I wonder why we felt we were being undermined on all sides? As long as I am wishing, it would also have been nice to come home to a country where people were NOT waving the VC flag and cheering for the other side, but I digress...


----------



## Grace

I guess this is supposed to show what a caring man he is.


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## JakeStarkey

The Gadfly said:


> JakeStarkey said:
> 
> 
> 
> The lame stream far right agenda-driven hoss and hosses here have never read the Pentagon Papers.
> 
> Listen up, morons, America was defending corporate profit structures in Vietnam 90%, democracy 10%.
> 
> We lost because the SVN leadership was as corrupt as the Tea Party and Righty Extremist Fascists in America today.  You morons lost this battle in the 1970s and you will lose it the twenty teens.  History will rub you out.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oh, I've read them. And I would have LOVED to have had an honest stable, South Vietnamese government for an ally, AND a National Command Authority which could actually locate its collective arse, much less get its collective head out of said arse long enough to have some idea of what it wanted me and my fellow soldiers to accomplish, and just the slightest bit of a clue how it expected us to accomplish it, AND, oh by the way, ARVN counterparts who were actually reliable, and did not engage in undesirable (and illegal) extracurricular activities - little things like that.  Unfortunately, my superiors were not in the habit of asking a mere O-3 what he would like to have....gee, I wonder why we felt we were being undermined on all sides? As long as I am wishing, it would also have been nice to come home to a country where people were NOT waving the VC flag and cheering for the other side, but I digress...
Click to expand...


We were fighting the wrong country at the wrong time for the wrong people (the SVN corrupt leadership and American corporations), and America rightly said "This is wrong."

Unfortunately, they took it out on the vets.

Gadfly, we have people on this thread will outright lie and say its urban myth the vets were spit on.

I saw it, I dozens who saw it, and that was just our experience.  At least 95% of American historians teach this misplaced hatred.


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## The Gadfly

JakeStarkey said:


> The Gadfly said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JakeStarkey said:
> 
> 
> 
> The lame stream far right agenda-driven hoss and hosses here have never read the Pentagon Papers.
> 
> Listen up, morons, America was defending corporate profit structures in Vietnam 90%, democracy 10%.
> 
> We lost because the SVN leadership was as corrupt as the Tea Party and Righty Extremist Fascists in America today.  You morons lost this battle in the 1970s and you will lose it the twenty teens.  History will rub you out.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oh, I've read them. And I would have LOVED to have had an honest stable, South Vietnamese government for an ally, AND a National Command Authority which could actually locate its collective arse, much less get its collective head out of said arse long enough to have some idea of what it wanted me and my fellow soldiers to accomplish, and just the slightest bit of a clue how it expected us to accomplish it, AND, oh by the way, ARVN counterparts who were actually reliable, and did not engage in undesirable (and illegal) extracurricular activities - little things like that.  Unfortunately, my superiors were not in the habit of asking a mere O-3 what he would like to have....gee, I wonder why we felt we were being undermined on all sides? As long as I am wishing, it would also have been nice to come home to a country where people were NOT waving the VC flag and cheering for the other side, but I digress...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> We were fighting the wrong country at the wrong time for the wrong people (the SVN corrupt leadership and American corporations), and America rightly said "This is wrong."
> 
> Unfortunately, they took it out on the vets.
> 
> Gadfly, we have people on this thread will outright lie and say its urban myth the vets were spit on.
> 
> I saw it, I dozens who saw it, and that was just our experience.  At least 95% of American historians teach this misplaced hatred.
Click to expand...


Jake, that's the part of it I (and I'm sure many others) have struggled to understand. I guess we were easer and more convenient targets than the politicians, and now that most of the latter are dead, I suppose we are the only targets left, but damn, what did they expect us to do? What were we going to do? Mutiny? Just say "I quit!" and walk home? Some of us believed in what we were doing (or at least, trying to do), others didn't, but either way, the best we could do, was do our duty honorably, and hope we lived to come home. Hell, half the time our whole world was a few meters of rice paddy, tall grass or jungle, each other, and Charlie, and ultimately, all we were fighting for was each other.

Beyond that, I think most of it was sheer, ideological hatred; seems like some people would "forgive" those vets who "confessed to their crime"; the rest of us were, I guess you could say, "presumed war criminals", whether we had played by the rules or not. Well, sorry, but I don't believe in "confessing" to supposed "crimes" I never committed.

I'll tell you what it did in my case; I wasn't particularly political before, beyond "Duty, Honor, Country"; socially, for someone who grew up in the South, I was maybe somewhat liberal, but that treatment turned me against liberals. It wasn't hard to see what side of the political fence the hatred came from, and they even dishonored the wounded and the dead, which for me, was pretty much the last straw. So if you want to know how I learned to despise the Left; how I became what you called a righty extremist something or other, that's where it started. I've never been able to forget or forgive that, and I don't think I ever will be.


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## JakeStarkey

The New Left of the day were not the liberals, and the liberals today of our age are not the "old" New Left.  Hayden and Fonda were New Left, he a solid Red and she a soft Pink.  Citizens then were generally (and today simply do not know) unaware just how corrupt the damn SVN and some of ARVN leaderships were.  This is why we are going to lose in Afghanistan, too: the Kharzais and buddies are out for themselves not the people.

All I can say is Fonda got religion, she got remorse, and she has tried to do right by it for some years.

No one today, at least, is spitting on soldiers coming home.


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## The Gadfly

JakeStarkey said:


> The New Left of the day were not the liberals, and the liberals today of our age are not the "old" New Left.  Hayden and Fonda were New Left, he a solid Red and she a soft Pink.  Citizens then were generally (and today simply do not know) unaware just how corrupt the damn SVN and some of ARVN leaderships were.  This is why we are going to lose in Afghanistan, too: the Kharzais and buddies are out for themselves not the people.
> 
> All I can say is Fonda got religion, she got remorse, and she has tried to do right by it for some years.
> 
> No one today, at least, is spitting on soldiers coming home.


I don't know about that first part, Jake; some of them sure sound much the same to me, still use the same mantras, catch phrases and canards. Some have changed, how much, I'm not certain. From my perspective some liberals today are totally different, and others....well, you've seen their comments here; judge for yourself, because I'm pretty biased, but....

I'll give you that on the RVN government(s), and some of the ARVN as well. The latter were a pretty uneven bunch; some of them were good soldiers and patriots, as far as I could tell, some of them were just about useless, and a few were corrupt, sadistic, little bastards who were little (if any) better than the Cong. Most of the civilian population, IMO, deserved better than either lot, but we couldn't give it to them, unfortunately.

As for the last sentence, yeah, at least there's that much, and I hope it stays that way; if that never happens again, then maybe what we went through was worth it in the end. Sometimes, I don't know; I just don't know.


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## Sallow

tinydancer said:


> Sallow said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Gadfly said:
> 
> 
> 
> *When you defend a tyrannical communist government , I take that to mean you consider them your "pals".*
> 
> Second, I find it ironic that the Left always brings up Calley; you practically have made him the poster boy for all American soldiers in Vietnam. Thanks to him, all of us have been labeled murderers and baby killers. Well, Calley WAS a failure and a disgrace, and yes, I'll throw in war criminal as well, because what he and his men did is definitely a war crime. Everybody remembers Calley. However, there WERE Americans at My Lai that day who did not commit atrocities, or stand there and do nothing while others committed mass murder. I never hear Hugh Thompson mentioned, and yet, he ought to be remembered by you, and everyone else,  for what he did. I want to know if you or anyone else here remembers WO1 Thompson, because he represents the other side of the story of My Lai,and while we are telling the truth, we ought to tell ALL of it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I defend the people of most any country coming up with popular self rule. That's what Vietnam was doing. That's what they've been trying to do for almost 1,000 years.
> 
> They wanted an election. They earned it. They helped fight the Japanese during WWII. They didn't get it. What they got was invasion.
> 
> That something you want to defend?
> 
> Cheers.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Are you really trying to defend the Communist North and their invasion of the south as a Democratic action?
> 
> Let's get real here. Ho was the aggressor. Ho invaded the south. Of this there is no doubt.
> 
> Why are we trying to spin this? Commie North vs sort of democratic south. Oh and btw, lets talk about all of this?
> 
> Part of the invasion of the south was based on the "whoopsies" we killed all the farmers in North Vietnam and we need the rice paddies in the south because we fucked up as commies always do.
> 
> The Cong offed all the farmers. Did you know that? I did. They blamed the farmers for a famine.
> 
> oh looky, global warming viet cong blaming the farmers for not forseeing a drought and a famine.
> 
> Lefties never change do they?
Click to expand...


No lets get real here. During WWII the Viet Mihn fought the Japanese. France wanted it's colony back and supported the South..which was a dictatorship. Then decided that the Viet Mihn were to tough for them. At the Paris peace accords they were promised an election but Eisenhower intervened once he realized that Ho Chi Mihn would have won fair and square. That began it.

The South was a dictatorship under Diem that went from bad to worse after his assassination..and wound up with a known heroin dealer as Dictator, Thieu. That's what the United States was backing. 

You really ought to do research before posting this bullshit.

Nguyen Van Thieu - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The Politics of Heroin in Southeast Asia - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


----------



## José

> Originally posted by *Sallow*
> France wanted it's colony back and supported the South..which was a dictatorship.



France did much more than simply supporting South Vietnam, Sallow... the frogs created the whole damn puppet state!!

South Vietnam is just the new name of the *Provisional Central Government of Vietnam* created and ruled directly by France that later became the State of Vietnam.



> The State of Vietnam replaced the Provisional Central Government of Vietnam (19481949).
> 
> From 1949 to 1954, *the State of Vietnam had partial autonomy from France as an associated state within the French Union*.
> 
> State of Vietnam - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## Dr Grump

Most French colonies were seen as part of France, as opposed to an extention of France...there is a difference...


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## The Gadfly

José;3908106 said:
			
		

> Originally posted by *Sallow*
> France wanted it's colony back and supported the South..which was a dictatorship.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> France did much more than simply supporting South Vietnam, Sallow... the frogs created the whole damn puppet state!!
> 
> South Vietnam is just the new name of the *Provisional Central Government of Vietnam* created and ruled directly by France that later became the State of Vietnam.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The State of Vietnam replaced the Provisional Central Government of Vietnam (1948&#8211;1949).
> 
> From 1949 to 1954, *the State of Vietnam had partial autonomy from France as an associated state within the French Union*.
> 
> State of Vietnam - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


None of which changes the fact that the RVN was a recognized, sovereign state, militarily invaded by another state (the DRV). Aren't you and your comrades on the Left always ready to cite legal technicalities when it suits you? Well, legally speaking, what Uncle Ho's DRV did was *unlawful aggression*. Election or no election, Ho had no mandate from the U.N. or anyone else (except his Soviet puppet masters) to invade the RVN. Facts are a bitch, aren't they?


----------



## JakeStarkey

The Gadfly said:


> JakeStarkey said:
> 
> 
> 
> The New Left of the day were not the liberals, and the liberals today of our age are not the "old" New Left.  Hayden and Fonda were New Left, he a solid Red and she a soft Pink.  Citizens then were generally (and today simply do not know) unaware just how corrupt the damn SVN and some of ARVN leaderships were.  This is why we are going to lose in Afghanistan, too: the Kharzais and buddies are out for themselves not the people.
> 
> All I can say is Fonda got religion, she got remorse, and she has tried to do right by it for some years.
> 
> No one today, at least, is spitting on soldiers coming home.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't know about that first part, Jake; some of them sure sound much the same to me, still use the same mantras, catch phrases and canards. Some have changed, how much, I'm not certain. From my perspective some liberals today are totally different, and others....well, you've seen their comments here; judge for yourself, because I'm pretty biased, but....
> 
> I'll give you that on the RVN government(s), and some of the ARVN as well. The latter were a pretty uneven bunch; some of them were good soldiers and patriots, as far as I could tell, some of them were just about useless, and a few were corrupt, sadistic, little bastards who were little (if any) better than the Cong. Most of the civilian population, IMO, deserved better than either lot, but we couldn't give it to them, unfortunately.
> 
> As for the last sentence, yeah, at least there's that much, and I hope it stays that way; if that never happens again, then maybe what we went through was worth it in the end. Sometimes, I don't know; I just don't know.
Click to expand...


Those who did not live the Sixties and the war have no ideal emotionally or psychologically what the boomers went through, and in part how it molded us to even this day.

I honor your service and your fallen comrades.  I honor all who served then and now.  I just wish the far left and the far right who did not go through the experiences our generation did would take the time to study very, very carefully.


----------



## José

> Originally posted by *JakeStarkey*
> I honor your service and your fallen comrades.



Of course you do, Jake... after all you're a pornographic, morally depraved super patriotic american clown who dehumanise 1 million vietnamese killed by the "service" of the people you now honor.


----------



## José

> Originally posted by *The Gadfly*
> None of which changes the fact that the RVN was a recognized, sovereign state, militarily invaded by another state (the DRV). Aren't you and your comrades on the Left always ready to cite legal technicalities when it suits you? Well, legally speaking, what Uncle Ho's DRV did was unlawful aggression. Election or no election, Ho had no mandate from the U.N. or anyone else (except his Soviet puppet masters) to invade the RVN. Facts are a bitch, aren't they?



International law cannot be invoked to delegitimise genuine movements of national liberation from colonial rule (you just admitted that South Vietnam was a creation, an extention and the heir of French Indochina).

The 13 colonies were also a recognized overseas territory of the British crown in 1770 but this does not delegitimise the american revolution.


----------



## José

I already debated with Gadfly.

He seems to be a decent, likeable human being but he also fits the stereotype of a Vietnam veteran perfectly.

*1 - Sad, embittered, mourning the fall of that shambolic mess of a (puppet) state called South Vietnam.

2 - Living in a permanent state of denial regarding the will of the vietnamese people and America's role in the conflict.

3 - Giving credence to the urban legend that Vietnam Vets were spat on and cussed by americans when they came back.*

etc, etc, etc...

You name a vietnam vet sterotype and you'll find it in him.

I'm afraid that at any moment he'll start describing to us his flashbacks of the jungle fight in Vietnam.

But despite all this, I still have a strange kind of simpathy for the guy (excluding his "service" in Vietnam, of course).

I like the guy, I don't even know exactly why, but I do.


----------



## Patrick2

José;3909792 said:
			
		

> Living in a permanent state of denial regarding the will of the vietnamese people and America's role in the conflict.



A few communist thugs ran north vietnam, and you call that "the will of the vietnamese people"?  How about all the south vietnamese who died in "re-education camps" after the war - they willed themselves to end up there?

Do you understand what a brainwashed ass you sound like?


----------



## JakeStarkey

José;3909641 said:
			
		

> Originally posted by *JakeStarkey*
> I honor your service and your fallen comrades.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Of course you do, Jake... after all you're a pornographic, morally depraved super patriotic american clown who dehumanise 1 million vietnamese killed by the "service" of the people you now honor.
Click to expand...

 Jose, we were generation who went because we were expected to.  Our parents were the generation who saved the world from fascism and militarism, then staved off communism.

They and our generation committed many errors, and Vietnam was one of them.

However, if we had stepped off, as you imply, you would not be able to yell about our failures.  The bad guys either would have indoctrinated you or would have put you against the wall.

You do not know, or ignoring, the entire story, which is about right for your mindset in which you describe The Gadfly above by your standards.

You are wrong, and your errors are taught as such in our high schools and colleges.

You and your opinion are on the ash heap of history, Jose, and all your wailing does not change that.


----------



## Mr_Rockhead

Sunni Man said:


> R
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mr_Rockhead said:
> 
> 
> 
> Taking an active part in bringing about your countries defeat is not a simple act of protest.
> 
> While in Vietnam, Jane recorded many propaganda pieces for the North Vietnamese.  These interviews were designed to do one thing and only one thing  demoralize American troops.
> 
> By comparison, an American woman was convicted of TREASON for doing the exact same thing during WW-II (she was one of the many Tokyo Roses).
> 
> So, regardless of whether Fonda was ever charged, there is plenty of evidence (such as the broadcasts) and also a precedent.
> 
> 
> 
> The reason that Tokyo Rose's actions were treasonous was because we were in a "declared" war.
> 
> Which was not the case concerning Vietnam or Jane Fonda's trip there as an American citizen.
Click to expand...


This was already covered.

Copy and paste from post 185:

TREASON

This word imports a betraying, treachery, or breach of allegiance. 

The Constitution of the United States, Art. III, defines treason against the United States to consist only in levying war against them, *or* in adhering to their enemies, giving them aid or comfort. This offence is punished with death. By the same article of the Constitution, no person shall be convicted of treason, unless on the testimony of two witnesses to the same overt act, or on confession in open court. 

Legal Definition of Treason

And, yes, Jane was an American citizen while doing this stuff that's the reason she is just as just as guilty as WW-II American woman who was charged and convicted for doing the exact same thing.


----------

