# Oil/Gas Question



## Cain

I am asking the forum members to help me out in a question I have. 

What happens when gas/oil becomes too expensive for people to use? I mean, I live 20+ miles from the closest city [closest town is about 10-12] and we live on a farm in the middle of nowhere, we can't exactly bike/walk too town, even though I know I could probably bike 20 miles, I do not believe it would be a option for school lol, although who knows. Thank the lord I am getting out of here in 3 months. 

I have already closed the idea of getting a truck, seeing as how the Jeep I like just as much gets 23-29mpg average, a lot better then 14-20; now I am wondering, are vehicles really all that important? I have no problem riding a horse to work, although I'd prefer a mule or donkey, less issues and have more sense. (Have raised members of all the families, horse/donkey/mule/cow/emu/llama)

I am just wondering cause I personally have no idea, I mean, the only thing I can think is riots/mobs in the streets trying to figure out how their going to survive.


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## Two Thumbs

During the fuel shortage under Carter I don't recall any riots.

You live on a farm, so if riots did happen, you can watch the cities burn.  B/c that's the only place that will have problems b/c people will lack the space to grow enough food to feed themselves, even fewer will have the knowledge and fewer still the skill/talent.

for me, if it gets to high, I'll take the bus, if the bus jacks the price up, I'll either walk or put in to work from home.

I had a garden in paint buckets last year with poor to fair results, so when food prices go up, more, I'm going to be pressed to feed my kids.


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## Foxfyre

I don't believe it has ever happened that an essential product became cost prohibitive for more than a very few.  High gasoline prices will almost certainly force many people to plan better--set out routes to maximize efficiency in shopping etc. when we do drive our cars/trucks.  There will probably be more carpooling.  More working from home.   Fewer or closer in vacations.  Trips to Grandma's spaced out longer.  Etc.   Those of you out on the farm might invest in a larger freezer, canning supplies, and schedule fewer shopping trips to town.  Higher school costs to run busses could likely result in cutting non essential classes, sports, etc.   In other words, people will generally find ways to manage.  This is not the first time American ingenuity went into high gear to deal with high prices and shortages.

The more serious problem are shortages making Petroleum unavailable for some or for some purposes.  At least spring is coming on so folks are less likely to freeze, but if some processes and products that require petroleum are not able to get all they need, that will show up in higher costs for those products and services and will likely result in more unemployment.  Already trucking companies are cutting back to save on fuel so it may take longer to get products to market and some smaller markets may be cut off entirely.

Look on the bright side.  Maybe this oil crisis will prompt our fearless leaders to pull their heads out of the sand, relax non essential regulations and restrictions so we can start revving up domestic production again.

I'm not holding my breath however.


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## Toronado3800

First step is to ditch my MarkVIII and buy something that uses its technology to get 50mpg. Driving my 280hp 24mpg car around is a pure luxury. 100hp will get a family of four down the road just fine.


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## Care4all

cain

higher oil/gas prices will hurt us all around...because food and the cost of producing it, will rise....so, 2 necessities....transportation to and fro work will be higher AND food and clothes will be higher in price as well...

if wages continue to stay stagnant, this will be a major burden on MOST of middle America....the middle class.

although i am not necessarily against drilling more in some of the nationally restricted areas of the usa, i disagree with Foxfyre....increased drilling in the US will NOT lower the prices of oil and the oil drilled here, is sold on the global market and not held here in the usa....for only our use.

i do agree with Foxfyre that we will use our ingenuity, to get by.

And we will eventually find another energy source, to fuel our needs....it won't be easy....a lot of hardships to come....for certain!


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## KissMy

Rather than go overboard with drastic measures it makes more energy sense to stop shopping as much at stores & have goods delivered to your home. Live close to work, carpool & combine trips as much as possible. Stock-up to reduce trips to stores.

A Chinese worker lives in a dorm at their work place. The average China worker consumes less than 2 barrels of oil per year to live & make products for Americans. The average American consumes over 20 barrels of oil per year to live & make products. It is much, much, much more fuel efficient to make products in China & ship them to American homes than it is for Americans to go to work to make & buy their own goods.

A ocean cargo ship gets over 1,100 net freight ton miles per gallon.
A barge gets 575 net freight ton miles per gallon.
A train gets 425 net freight ton miles per gallon.
A semi truck gets 170 net freight ton miles per gallon.
A UPS delivery truck gets 15 net freight ton miles per gallon.
A Jet plane gets 7 net freight ton miles per gallon.
A 1/2 ton pick-up truck completly filled both ways gets 9 net freight ton miles per gallon. One way 4.5 net freight ton miles per gallon.
An average 20-lbs of goods per car trip to the store empty one way gets 0.125 net freight ton miles per gallon.

FYI - CNBC just did a story (Supermarkets Inc.) on grocery stores. The average American spends $35 per trip to the supermarket & goes shopping 3.5 times per week. You can't even buy 20-lbs worth of groceries for $35. So the average net freight ton miles per gallon for grocery shopping is likely lower than the 0.125 I quoted above. If we would just combine trips, buy more per trip, carpool, take a neighbor shopping with us or do their shopping for them or order online & have things delivered we could more than double our mileage & cut our transportation fuel consumption by more than 50%.


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## boedicca

We are already seeing what will happen:

- Energy and food prices are not counted by the government in core inflation, so they will ignore the issue and actually claim economic growth as consumers pay more for less goods.

- The economy will meander at a moribund pace, causing more people to drop out of the labor force.  The government will use this shrinkage to claim improvements in unemployment.

- The moribund economy will cause tax receipts to be lower than projected while the permanent Big Government Establishment refuses to cut 2% of spending.   The deficts will be bigger than expected.

- The larger deficits will increase the governments need for borrowing; foreign buyers of debt will demand higher interest payments.   Higher interest payments will increase the deficit.  Return to the above point and repeat.

- The disconnect between the official Administration Spin and the reality of stagflation for the vast majority of Americans will  be The Issue in 2012.

- Obama will lose; and if we are smart and lucky, we will elect someone who will quickly undo the Obamanation of his ignorant fiscal and economic policies before we reach the point of no return.


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## editec

In the 50s and 60s gas was cheap and people with jobs moved to the burbs and the poor remained behind.

As gas gets dear, people are moving back into the cities, and the poor are getting displaced.

People will adapt to changing condition if the changes aren't so rapid that they cannot change in time.


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## Mr. H.

Cain, aren't you more worried about the high cost of oil/gas affecting your farm's input costs?


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## Two Thumbs

editec said:


> In the 50s and 60s gas was cheap and people with jobs moved to the burbs and the poor remained behind.
> 
> As gas gets dear, people are moving back into the cities, and the poor are getting displaced.
> 
> People will adapt to changing condition if the changes aren't so rapid that they cannot change in time.



You got a link that shows more poor people are getting displaced?  Or one that shows people to moving into cities?  Where it is far more expensive to live.


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## Midnight Marauder

Cain said:


> What happens when gas/oil becomes too expensive for people to use?


That's.... LONG been the goal of the watermelons. Read Al Gore's 1992 book, "Earth in the Balance," the "Mein Kampf" of the EnviroNazi movement.


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## RGR

Cain said:


> I am just wondering cause I personally have no idea, I mean, the only thing I can think is riots/mobs in the streets trying to figure out how their going to survive.



Crude oil is such a wonderful chemical feedstock that burning it to move ourselves from here to there for cigarettes, beer and fast food is perhaps one of the most ignorant misallocation of resources since the dawn of man.

But there is just so much of the stuff around..."Why not use it!" seems more like the operative attitude.

Modify your behavior, and your expectations, and you won't notice rising gas prices in the least.

My personal example. When gas was $1.50/gal I drove a V8 powered pickup at 13 mpg. At $3/gal I'll drive an Escape Hybrid at 26 mpg.  At $4/gal I'll switch to a Camry hybrid at 39mpg. At $5/gal I buy a Prius. 

Under all these scenario's I spend the exact same amount for fuel, even though the price has gone up by 300%+.

Correspondingly, you can drive less. Drive half as much for each doubling in price and you'll still pay the same money for fuel. And can keep your Jeep, if that is really want to drive.

So pick your price point, and make your capital investment accordingly.


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## KissMy

Two Thumbs said:


> editec said:
> 
> 
> 
> In the 50s and 60s gas was cheap and people with jobs moved to the burbs and the poor remained behind.
> 
> As gas gets dear, people are moving back into the cities, and the poor are getting displaced.
> 
> People will adapt to changing condition if the changes aren't so rapid that they cannot change in time.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You got a link that shows more poor people are getting displaced?  Or one that shows people to moving into cities?  Where it is far more expensive to live.
Click to expand...


If we can get rid of the government union pensions, the cost of living in the city would come way down & compete with rural living. Rural government is tons cheaper than cities. The per citizen & per household cost in cities should cheaper due to efficiency in the city vs rural but currently it is way more expensive due to politicians & union benefits.


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## Mini 14

On behalf of the Pawnbrokers and Gun Dealers of America, I say

BRING IT!!!!


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## JiggsCasey

RGR said:


> Cain said:
> 
> 
> 
> I am just wondering cause I personally have no idea, I mean, the only thing I can think is riots/mobs in the streets trying to figure out how their going to survive.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Crude oil is such a wonderful chemical feedstock that burning it to move ourselves from here to there for cigarettes, beer and fast food is perhaps one of the most ignorant misallocation of resources since the dawn of man.
> 
> But there is just so much of the stuff around..."Why not use it!" seems more like the operative attitude.
> 
> Modify your behavior, and your expectations, and you won't notice rising gas prices in the least.
> 
> My personal example. When gas was $1.50/gal I drove a V8 powered pickup at 13 mpg. At $3/gal I'll drive an Escape Hybrid at 26 mpg.  At $4/gal I'll switch to a Camry hybrid at 39mpg. At $5/gal I buy a Prius.
> 
> Under all these scenario's I spend the exact same amount for fuel, even though the price has gone up by 300%+.
> 
> Correspondingly, you can drive less. Drive half as much for each doubling in price and you'll still pay the same money for fuel. And can keep your Jeep, if that is really want to drive.
> 
> So pick your price point, and make your capital investment accordingly.
Click to expand...


Unfortunately, rising fuel prices effects every aspect of the global economy, not just our Sunday driving habits.

*The price of corn has doubled over the last six months.
*The price of wheat has more than doubled over the past year.
*The price of soybeans is up about 50% since last June.
*The price of cotton has more than doubled over the past year.
*The commodity price of orange juice has doubled since 2009.
*The price of sugar is the highest it has been in 30 years.

Then of course, there's the small business, and it's capacity to hire/maintain employees.


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## Care4all

Two Thumbs said:


> editec said:
> 
> 
> 
> In the 50s and 60s gas was cheap and people with jobs moved to the burbs and the poor remained behind.
> 
> As gas gets dear, people are moving back into the cities, and the poor are getting displaced.
> 
> People will adapt to changing condition if the changes aren't so rapid that they cannot change in time.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You got a link that shows more poor people are getting displaced?  Or one that shows people to moving into cities?  Where it is far more expensive to live.
Click to expand...


he's saying that IF more people from the suburbs move back in to the city, then the poor will be displaced...

HOW?

Because land is limited and housing with it....and due to the limited product...housing....and the higher demand for housing, the price of housing and rent in the city will rise rise and rise....this will eventually displace the poor, who can not afford the higher rents that those from the suburbs moving in to the city can pay.


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## Foxfyre

RGR said:


> Cain said:
> 
> 
> 
> I am just wondering cause I personally have no idea, I mean, the only thing I can think is riots/mobs in the streets trying to figure out how their going to survive.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Crude oil is such a wonderful chemical feedstock that burning it to move ourselves from here to there for cigarettes, beer and fast food is perhaps one of the most ignorant misallocation of resources since the dawn of man.
> 
> But there is just so much of the stuff around..."Why not use it!" seems more like the operative attitude.
> 
> Modify your behavior, and your expectations, and you won't notice rising gas prices in the least.
> 
> My personal example. When gas was $1.50/gal I drove a V8 powered pickup at 13 mpg. At $3/gal I'll drive an Escape Hybrid at 26 mpg.  At $4/gal I'll switch to a Camry hybrid at 39mpg. At $5/gal I buy a Prius.
> 
> Under all these scenario's I spend the exact same amount for fuel, even though the price has gone up by 300%+.
> 
> Correspondingly, you can drive less. Drive half as much for each doubling in price and you'll still pay the same money for fuel. And can keep your Jeep, if that is really want to drive.
> 
> So pick your price point, and make your capital investment accordingly.
Click to expand...


Yup.  (On another board) the last time gas prices skyrocketed, we had this same disussion and there were those who saw the practical side of it as you do.  When prices rise, those of us with finite resources make do with less, conserve more, become more careful, plan better.  When things are cheap they are far more expendable and we are far more careless in using them.

And then there is the factor of difference in need.  If you live near a bus stop, you need private transportation less.   But if you are only a half mile to a mile from work, you can drive your beloved Hummer to and from work and consume far less fuel than will the guy driving the Prius 20 miles to and from work.

This thread started with the concern of one who lives far outside the city.  But where we live is a choice for most and there will always be tradeoffs when we decide what is more important.

It was not cheap fuel that drove people to the suburbs but crime and deterioration of other qualify of life factors.


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## KissMy

Care4all said:


> although i am not necessarily against drilling more in some of the nationally restricted areas of the usa, i disagree with Foxfyre....increased drilling in the US will NOT lower the prices of oil and the oil drilled here, is sold on the global market and not held here in the usa....for only our use.



Your political rhetoric has been proven wrong. "Drill Here Drill Now" has & will lower oil prices. Stop regurgitating democrat fact-less lies, spin, & talking points. What drove oil prices up to $145.29? Here is a clue. This coincided with the "Peak Oil" media blitz. Similar to the Enron Power Scam. Oil traders leased most of the oil tankers tying them up to restrict the transportation of oil to markets. They stored their oil in these tankers & parked them offshore so they would not count in inventory creating the illusion of an oil shortage. This is called "Floating Storage"



> Oil Stored at Sea Washes Out Rallies
> More oil is being produced than recession-stricken economies need, and prices have fallen as the extra crude fills storage terminals world-wide. Crude-futures prices are down 72% from the record hit in July... The oil sitting at sea adds an extra layer of uncertainty about the supply overhang, which traders said must be whittled down for oil prices to rebound. Tankers carrying up to two million barrels each aren't counted in official statistics. Ship trackers estimate that as many as 80 million barrels may be on the water, or more than twice the amount kept in the largest commercial storage center in the U.S., in Cushing, Okla.



What Event Happened on the very day oil stopped climbing past $145.29 & began its decline all the way down to $33.87? That is a $112 drop in oil prices!

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FusqAtX0OJ8"]Oil Drops $112 because of this![/ame]

Amazing I Tell You, Utterly Amazing! If you think I am lying about the cause of the $112 drop, Check the date against the oil price charts. *Now you see "Drill Baby Drill" worked. Don't you just hate it when Sarah Palin is smarter than you.* This stuck all those Enron type traders with ship loads of oil that they lost their ass on. Now what event happened on the very day Oil Prices started to climb again from the $33 dollar low. Hint (New Administration took office). Check The Charts! Now every time Obama threatens to stop drilling, these Enron type "Floating Storage" scum bags make their money back. *How Fucking Stupid is this Obama Idiot?*

Bloomberg - Oil Imports Surge as Traders Unwind Floating Storage Bets: Energy Markets


> Oil imports into the Gulf of Mexico region surged to a record last week as the profits from floating storage evaporated, pushing traders to unload their cargoes and forcing crude futures lower.
> 
> The price advantage for traders who buy oil and store it at sea for a month instead of delivering it immediately has shrunk 90 percent since May. Floating storage in the Gulf dropped 24 percent in the week ended July 23, Bloomberg data show.
> 
> &#8220;What was going on last week was dumping the crude,&#8221; said Tim Evans, an energy analyst at Citi Futures Perspective in New York. &#8220;The spread is putting pressure on those holding inventories on tankers to move it ashore.&#8221;
> 
> Stockpiles unexpectedly rose 7.31 million barrels, or 2.1 percent, to 360.8 million in the week ended July 23, confounding analysts who predicted inventories would fall 1.73 million barrels, or 0.5 percent, to their lowest level in four months. A surge in imports to Gulf states contributed to the glut, Energy Department figures showed July 28.


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## Dot Com

Sure we need goods transported but it seems Americans, in their daily private lives, have been groomed to believe that get anywhere farther than 1/2 mile form your house requires pushing @ a ton or more of steel. It stands to reason that the largest profit- maker in the world approves of that mind set too, Exxon. I've ridden/commuted to jobs on bicycles but I live in a suburban/urban area.


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## Dot Com

Care4all said:


> Two Thumbs said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> editec said:
> 
> 
> 
> In the 50s and 60s gas was cheap and people with jobs moved to the burbs and the poor remained behind.
> 
> As gas gets dear, people are moving back into the cities, and the poor are getting displaced.
> 
> People will adapt to changing condition if the changes aren't so rapid that they cannot change in time.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You got a link that shows more poor people are getting displaced?  Or one that shows people to moving into cities?  Where it is far more expensive to live.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> he's saying that IF more people from the suburbs move back in to the city, then the poor will be displaced...
> 
> HOW?
> 
> Because land is limited and housing with it....and due to the limited product...housing....and the higher demand for housing, the price of housing and rent in the city will rise rise and rise....this will eventually displace the poor, who can not afford the higher rents that those from the suburbs moving in to the city can pay.
Click to expand...


Yeah. It's termed- 'gentrification'. The banks buy out low-moderate income housing, demolish it and build condos. low- moderate people are forced out.


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## Defiant1

Cain said:


> I am asking the forum members to help me out in a question I have.
> 
> What happens when gas/oil becomes too expensive for people to use? I mean, I live 20+ miles from the closest city [closest town is about 10-12] and we live on a farm in the middle of nowhere, we can't exactly bike/walk too town, even though I know I could probably bike 20 miles, I do not believe it would be a option for school lol, although who knows. Thank the lord I am getting out of here in 3 months.
> 
> I have already closed the idea of getting a truck, seeing as how the Jeep I like just as much gets 23-29mpg average, a lot better then 14-20; now I am wondering, are vehicles really all that important? I have no problem riding a horse to work, although I'd prefer a mule or donkey, less issues and have more sense. (Have raised members of all the families, horse/donkey/mule/cow/emu/llama)
> 
> I am just wondering cause I personally have no idea, I mean, the only thing I can think is riots/mobs in the streets trying to figure out how their going to survive.



It won't happen.  If gas isn't being bought, companies aren't making money and inventories increase, so they lower the price.


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## JiggsCasey

KissMy said:


> Care4all said:
> 
> 
> 
> although i am not necessarily against drilling more in some of the nationally restricted areas of the usa, i disagree with Foxfyre....increased drilling in the US will NOT lower the prices of oil and the oil drilled here, is sold on the global market and not held here in the usa....for only our use.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Your political rhetoric has been proven wrong. "Drill Here Drill Now" has & will lower oil prices. Stop regurgitating democrat fact-less lies, spin, & talking points. What drove oil prices up to $145.29? Here is a clue. This coincided with the "Peak Oil" media blitz. Similar to the Enron Power Scam. Oil traders leased most of the oil tankers tying them up to restrict the transportation of oil to markets. They stored their oil in these tankers & parked them offshore so they would not count in inventory creating the illusion of an oil shortage. This is called "Floating Storage"
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oil Stored at Sea Washes Out Rallies
> More oil is being produced than recession-stricken economies need, and prices have fallen as the extra crude fills storage terminals world-wide. Crude-futures prices are down 72% from the record hit in July... The oil sitting at sea adds an extra layer of uncertainty about the supply overhang, which traders said must be whittled down for oil prices to rebound. Tankers carrying up to two million barrels each aren't counted in official statistics. Ship trackers estimate that as many as 80 million barrels may be on the water, or more than twice the amount kept in the largest commercial storage center in the U.S., in Cushing, Okla.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> What Event Happened on the very day oil stopped climbing past $145.29 & began its decline all the way down to $33.87? That is a $112 drop in oil prices!
> 
> [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FusqAtX0OJ8"]Oil Drops $112 because of this![/ame]
> 
> Amazing I Tell You, Utterly Amazing! If you think I am lying about the cause of the $112 drop, Check the date against the oil price charts. *Now you see "Drill Baby Drill" worked. Don't you just hate it when Sarah Palin is smarter than you.* This stuck all those Enron type traders with ship loads of oil that they lost their ass on. Now what event happened on the very day Oil Prices started to climb again from the $33 dollar low. Hint (New Administration took office). Check The Charts! Now every time Obama threatens to stop drilling, these Enron type "Floating Storage" scum bags make their money back. *How Fucking Stupid is this Obama Idiot?*
> 
> Hot off the press: Bloomberg - Oil Imports Surge as Traders Unwind Floating Storage Bets: Energy Markets
> 
> 
> 
> Oil imports into the Gulf of Mexico region surged to a record last week as the profits from floating storage evaporated, pushing traders to unload their cargoes and forcing crude futures lower.
> 
> The price advantage for traders who buy oil and store it at sea for a month instead of delivering it immediately has shrunk 90 percent since May. Floating storage in the Gulf dropped 24 percent in the week ended July 23, Bloomberg data show.
> 
> &#8220;What was going on last week was dumping the crude,&#8221; said Tim Evans, an energy analyst at Citi Futures Perspective in New York. &#8220;The spread is putting pressure on those holding inventories on tankers to move it ashore.&#8221;
> 
> Stockpiles unexpectedly rose 7.31 million barrels, or 2.1 percent, to 360.8 million in the week ended July 23, confounding analysts who predicted inventories would fall 1.73 million barrels, or 0.5 percent, to their lowest level in four months. A surge in imports to Gulf states contributed to the glut, Energy Department figures showed July 28.
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


You should study correlation vs. causation. The price spike of 2008 doesn't mean what you think it means. 

Also, there was no "peak oil media blitz," drama queen. Almost no one is talking about peak oil. They don't dare cover it (and please don't pretend the Discovery channel is the media we're talking about here). You're lying for effect... again. 

Those events you assign do not follow the partisan equation you are trying to spin. 

$33 global oil had ZERO to do with your favorite president's decree about kiddie pools under our ocean bed.

Needless to say, you ARE as dumb as Palin.


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## Cain

Didn't want to have to make a mess quoting everyone so here ya go lol: 

Well, my grandma lived on a cotton farm with 13 brothers and sisters, the only person that ever went to town was her father, and I think she said once a month to stock up, but I can't remember what they stocked up on, they raised their own food I think.

Yea, well, I know my parents will NEVER move into the city, I think they'd rather die in the country, their terrified of huge populated areas, and they just like the quite life. I don't blame them to be honest.

My vehicle of choice is the Jeep Patriot, and I believe 23-29 will be good for me, seeing as how I won't be paying for anything else, I don't plan to take a cell phone with me, or anything I can't just buy outright. If it gets bad enough, I could get a motorcycle, I have heard of some that get 50+, but if I get stationed in North Dakota, I'm investing in some serious winter gear. 

I love living on a farm, but I'd hate to see the cities burn, and my worry would be the roads near my farm turning into Road Warrior lol. 

Thanks for all the information and comments/suggestions, I thank you all, and I hope for more, I really worry about this, and I try to find a logical reason before giving into panic as best as I can, although I fail at times.

Also, I do not believe it would effect our output much, we have all the gear to use animals for agriculture (not much of a option for large farms, but we are a small farm) and I know a lot of the local Amish, and they wouldn't mind showing us the ropes to do it old-style lol. I remember complaining one time about setting tobbaco (planting) and our boss talked about how he had bought this setter like 30 years ago and it was old then, then I was told in Mexico they still do it by hand, I was inclined to like the setter haha.


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## Foxfyre

Cain said:


> Didn't want to have to make a mess quoting everyone so here ya go lol:
> 
> Well, my grandma lived on a cotton farm with 13 brothers and sisters, the only person that ever went to town was her father, and I think she said once a month to stock up, but I can't remember what they stocked up on, they raised their own food I think.
> 
> Yea, well, I know my parents will NEVER move into the city, I think they'd rather die in the country, their terrified of huge populated areas, and they just like the quite life. I don't blame them to be honest.
> 
> My vehicle of choice is the Jeep Patriot, and I believe 23-29 will be good for me, seeing as how I won't be paying for anything else, I don't plan to take a cell phone with me, or anything I can't just buy outright. If it gets bad enough, I could get a motorcycle, I have heard of some that get 50+, but if I get stationed in North Dakota, I'm investing in some serious winter gear.
> 
> I love living on a farm, but I'd hate to see the cities burn, and my worry would be the roads near my farm turning into Road Warrior lol.
> 
> Thanks for all the information and comments/suggestions, I thank you all, and I hope for more, I really worry about this, and I try to find a logical reason before giving into panic as best as I can, although I fail at times.
> 
> Also, I do not believe it would effect our output much, we have all the gear to use animals for agriculture (not much of a option for large farms, but we are a small farm) and I know a lot of the local Amish, and they wouldn't mind showing us the ropes to do it old-style lol. I remember complaining one time about setting tobbaco (planting) and our boss talked about how he had bought this setter like 30 years ago and it was old then, then I was told in Mexico they still do it by hand, I was inclined to like the setter haha.



You're still very young darlin', despite a demonstrated wisdom beyond your years.  You haven't experienced what your grandparents have experienced--your parents probably some less so because their generation have enjoyed far more good times than hard times.

My parents endured a depression the likes of which America had never seen and has never seen since.  But folks took care of folks, nobody we knew starved whether they had work or not even though the government didn't take care of anybody in their part of the world, and all survived.

Then came WWII and a time when gasoline, tires, meat, and numerous other necessities were severely rationed and butter was non existant unless you could make your own on the farm.   World War II sucked almost all products out of the economy but people back then, unless they were extremely wealthy, learned to improvise, make do, wear things out, use things up, and make things last because they knew there might not be any more in the foreseeable future.  Many were supporting a family on a dollar a day.  My great aunt ran a general store in a small eastern New Mexico town and made sure folks got a scoop of flour or a bit of sugar even if they couldn't pay.  Years later she was still trying to collect some of the debts she carried during that time but everybody survived the hardships.

Then there was my generation dealing with the Cold War, duck and cover drills and the Viet Nam War that affected us all and dragged on for a decade.  Then there were more gasoline shortages with long gas lines hoping for just a gallon or two of fuel to be left when they got to the pump, watching double digit inflation erode our buying power and consume our savings as bread crept above an unimaginable $1/loaf,  dealing with high unemployment and double digit interest rates.   And there were also the brutal droughts creating terrifying water shortages, brown outs, Three Mile Island and Chernobyl, devastating hurricanes, killer tornadoes, killer earthquakes, unbelievable wild fires, and every other challenge imaginable.

And we survived it all.

We've had really good times for a long time now so we're softer and more dependent on government and less confident in our own ability to cope.  But we're still Americans and the old spirit is there.  We just have to resurrect it and hitch up our overalls and we'll weather the current storms and challenges too.

We have to.  There simply is no option to fail.


----------



## RGR

JiggsCasey said:


> You should study correlation vs. causation. The price spike of 2008 doesn't mean what you think it means.



The parrot shouldn't be calling the kettle black.

You obviously confused correlation with causation not 5 posts back by pretending that increased food costs are because of fuel costs. Without a mention in the world of all the other things which effect food costs...just letting your mouth run away with you.

Stop. Apply single neuron firing. Then post.



			
				JiggsCasey said:
			
		

> Also, there was no "peak oil media blitz," drama queen. Almost no one is talking about peak oil.



Not NOW. But in 2005 it was making the front page of USA Today, above the fold. Of course, peak happened, no one noticed, and certainly it isn't even WORTH talking about now except by backwoods intellectuals who just won't shut up about their religious beliefs. 



			
				JiggsCasey said:
			
		

> They don't dare cover it (and please don't pretend the Discovery channel is the media we're talking about here). You're lying for effect... again.



They were covering it before you were skimming the Cliff Notes version of the peak oil Bible. And were predicting it before you were born, so of COURSE they were covering it (and Jimmy Carter was pretending it was real in the 70's).

Jiggsy, why don't you tell use which Peak Priest or congregation member you are on the religious sites so we can investigate your bad predictions, ridiculous assertions, and sophomoric logic there rather than cluttering up the joint here trying to recruit new members to your religion?


----------



## RGR

Foxfyre said:


> Modify your behavior, and your expectations, and you won't notice rising gas prices in the least.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yup.  (On another board) the last time gas prices skyrocketed, we had this same disussion and there were those who saw the practical side of it as you do.  When prices rise, those of us with finite resources make do with less, conserve more, become more careful, plan better.  When things are cheap they are far more expendable and we are far more careless in using them.
Click to expand...


Yeah, the basic behavior dictated by economics works pretty well. People bash them for not being a science but they have some quite reasonable and valid points to make..usually ignored by others in a rush to advocate a political or religious position.



			
				Foxfyre said:
			
		

> This thread started with the concern of one who lives far outside the city.  But where we live is a choice for most and there will always be tradeoffs when we decide what is more important.
> 
> It was not cheap fuel that drove people to the suburbs but crime and deterioration of other qualify of life factors.



Thats how I see it. However, these boards are obviously infested with some peaker-lite religious agendas and they tend to cast everything as a "things only happen because of oil!" argument.


----------



## Samson

Care4all said:


> Two Thumbs said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> editec said:
> 
> 
> 
> In the 50s and 60s gas was cheap and people with jobs moved to the burbs and the poor remained behind.
> 
> As gas gets dear, people are moving back into the cities, and the poor are getting displaced.
> 
> People will adapt to changing condition if the changes aren't so rapid that they cannot change in time.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You got a link that shows more poor people are getting displaced?  Or one that shows people to moving into cities?  Where it is far more expensive to live.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> he's saying that IF more people from the suburbs move back in to the city, then the poor will be displaced...
> 
> HOW?
> 
> Because land is limited and housing with it....and due to the limited product...housing....and the higher demand for housing, the price of housing and rent in the city will rise rise and rise....this will eventually displace the poor, who can not afford the higher rents that those from the suburbs moving in to the city can pay.
Click to expand...


This is why God made Public Transportation.


----------



## Samson

RGR said:


> Foxfyre said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Modify your behavior, and your expectations, and you won't notice rising gas prices in the least.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yup.  (On another board) the last time gas prices skyrocketed, we had this same disussion and there were those who saw the practical side of it as you do.  When prices rise, those of us with finite resources make do with less, conserve more, become more careful, plan better.  When things are cheap they are far more expendable and we are far more careless in using them.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yeah, the basic behavior dictated by economics works pretty well. People bash them for not being a science but they have some quite reasonable and valid points to make..usually ignored by others in a rush to advocate a political or religious position.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Foxfyre said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This thread started with the concern of one who lives far outside the city.  But where we live is a choice for most and there will always be tradeoffs when we decide what is more important.
> 
> It was not cheap fuel that drove people to the suburbs but crime and deterioration of other qualify of life factors.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Thats how I see it. However, these boards are obviously infested with some peaker-lite religious agendas and they tend to cast everything as a "things only happen because of oil!" argument.
Click to expand...


Meh...it isn't necessarily an argument against fossil fuel use as much as it is a partisan argument to tie every potential "evul" to a Republican Agenda. Most of the "peaker-lites" have finally figured out that 3 years after Bush left office, he's no longer an effective boggie-man, so they've found another, less capricious target: The Oil and Gas Industry.


----------



## zzzz

We have alternative fuels to power vehicles. The cost and applicability of them are why they are not being used to their full extent. But it is not powering our vehicles that we must worry about. Oil is used to make all of the following:
Solvents
Diesel fuel
Motor Oil
Bearing Grease
Ink
Floor Wax
Ballpoint Pens
Football Cleats
Upholstery
Sweaters
Boats
Insecticides
Bicycle Tires
Sports Car Bodies
Nail Polish
Fishing lures
Dresses
Tires
Golf Bags
Perfumes
Cassettes
Dishwasher parts
Tool Boxes
Shoe Polish
Motorcycle Helmet
Caulking
Petroleum Jelly
Transparent Tape
CD Player
Faucet Washers
Antiseptics
Clothesline
Curtains
Food Preservatives
Basketballs
Soap
Vitamin Capsules
Antihistamines
Purses
Shoes
Dashboards
Cortisone
Deodorant
Footballs
Putty
Dyes
Panty Hose
Refrigerant
Percolators
Life Jackets
Rubbing Alcohol
Linings
Skis
TV Cabinets
Shag Rugs
Electrician's Tape
Tool Racks
Car Battery Cases
Epoxy
Paint
Mops
Slacks
Insect Repellent
Oil Filters
Umbrellas
Yarn
Fertilizers
Hair Coloring
Roofing
Toilet Seats
Fishing Rods
Lipstick
Denture Adhesive
Linoleum
Ice Cube Trays
Synthetic Rubber
Speakers
Plastic Wood
Electric Blankets
Glycerin
Tennis Rackets
Rubber Cement
Fishing Boots
Dice
Nylon Rope
Candles
Trash Bags
House Paint
Water Pipes
Hand Lotion
Roller Skates
Surf Boards
Shampoo
Wheels
Paint Rolers
Shower Curtains
Guitar Strings
Luggage
Aspirin
Safety Glasses
Antifreeze
Football Helmets
Awnings
Eyeglasses
Clothes
Toothbrushes
Ice Chests
Footballs
Combs
CD's & DVD's
Paint Brushes
Detergents
Vaporizers
Balloons
Sun Glasses
Tents
Heart Valves
Crayons
Parachutes
Telephones
Enamel
Pillows
Dishes
Cameras
Anesthetics
Artificial Turf
Artificial limbs
Bandages
Dentures
Model Cars
Folding Doors
Hair Curlers
Cold cream
Movie film
Soft Contact lenses
Drinking Cups
Fan Belts
Car Enamel
Shaving Cream
Ammonia
Refrigerators
Golf Balls
Toothpaste
Gasoline

And that's only 144 of the over 6000 items that are created form oil.


----------



## RGR

zzzz said:


> We have alternative fuels to power vehicles. The cost and applicability of them are why they are not being used to their full extent. But it is not powering our vehicles that we must worry about. Oil is used to make all of the following:
> 
> And that's only 144 of the over 6000 items that are created form oil.



That's some list!

Good thing we can make oil from natural gas....so not only do we have a century or more of oil laying around, but then we can start converting all of that natural gas to oil and use that too!

Abundance! What a concept!


----------



## Samson

JiggsCasey said:


> RGR said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cain said:
> 
> 
> 
> I am just wondering cause I personally have no idea, I mean, the only thing I can think is riots/mobs in the streets trying to figure out how their going to survive.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Crude oil is such a wonderful chemical feedstock that burning it to move ourselves from here to there for cigarettes, beer and fast food is perhaps one of the most ignorant misallocation of resources since the dawn of man.
> 
> But there is just so much of the stuff around..."Why not use it!" seems more like the operative attitude.
> 
> Modify your behavior, and your expectations, and you won't notice rising gas prices in the least.
> 
> My personal example. When gas was $1.50/gal I drove a V8 powered pickup at 13 mpg. At $3/gal I'll drive an Escape Hybrid at 26 mpg.  At $4/gal I'll switch to a Camry hybrid at 39mpg. At $5/gal I buy a Prius.
> 
> Under all these scenario's I spend the exact same amount for fuel, even though the price has gone up by 300%+.
> 
> Correspondingly, you can drive less. Drive half as much for each doubling in price and you'll still pay the same money for fuel. And can keep your Jeep, if that is really want to drive.
> 
> So pick your price point, and make your capital investment accordingly.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Unfortunately, rising fuel prices effects every aspect of the global economy, not just our Sunday driving habits.
> 
> *The price of corn has doubled over the last six months.
> *The price of wheat has more than doubled over the past year.
> *The price of soybeans is up about 50% since last June.
> *The price of cotton has more than doubled over the past year.
> *The commodity price of orange juice has doubled since 2009.
> *The price of sugar is the highest it has been in 30 years.
> 
> Then of course, there's the small business, and it's capacity to hire/maintain employees.
Click to expand...


The real mystery is why academic quackery has risen in price: How does regurgitating the same pathetic predictions for the past 60 years rise in value?


----------



## RGR

Samson said:


> Meh...it isn't necessarily an argument against fossil fuel use as much as it is a partisan argument to tie every potential "evul" to a Republican Agenda. Most of the "peaker-lites" have finally figured out that 3 years after Bush left office, he's no longer an effective boggie-man, so they've found another, less capricious target: The Oil and Gas Industry.



Ah, they've been after that industry nearly forever. The peak-rapturists to a large extent are human-haters, and really want lawyers, yuppies, and humvee drivers to die, for many reasons (not the least of which is jealousy I suppose).


----------



## Samson

RGR said:


> Samson said:
> 
> 
> 
> Meh...it isn't necessarily an argument against fossil fuel use as much as it is a partisan argument to tie every potential "evul" to a Republican Agenda. Most of the "peaker-lites" have finally figured out that 3 years after Bush left office, he's no longer an effective boggie-man, so they've found another, less capricious target: The Oil and Gas Industry.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ah, they've been after that industry nearly forever. The peak-rapturists to a large extent are human-haters, and really want lawyers, yuppies, and humvee drivers to die, for many reasons (not the least of which is jealousy I suppose).
Click to expand...


"lawyers, yuppies, and humvee drivers?".....you just described Boulder County.


----------



## Cuyo

Cain said:


> I am asking the forum members to help me out in a question I have.
> 
> What happens when gas/oil becomes too expensive for people to use? I mean, I live 20+ miles from the closest city [closest town is about 10-12] and we live on a farm in the middle of nowhere, we can't exactly bike/walk too town, even though I know I could probably bike 20 miles, I do not believe it would be a option for school lol, although who knows. Thank the lord I am getting out of here in 3 months.
> 
> I have already closed the idea of getting a truck, seeing as how the Jeep I like just as much gets 23-29mpg average, a lot better then 14-20; now I am wondering, are vehicles really all that important? I have no problem riding a horse to work, although I'd prefer a mule or donkey, less issues and have more sense. (Have raised members of all the families, horse/donkey/mule/cow/emu/llama)
> 
> I am just wondering cause I personally have no idea, I mean, the only thing I can think is riots/mobs in the streets trying to figure out how their going to survive.



Do you mean eg today's (still relatively cheap) temporary price increases?  Or when such a time arrives that it's up way higher... And for good... And assuming an alternative has not replaced it?


----------



## RGR

Samson said:


> "lawyers, yuppies, and humvee drivers?".....you just described Boulder County.



Oh...I bet there are more Priuses in Boulder County than Humvee's.


----------



## RGR

Cuyo said:


> ... And assuming an alternative has not replaced it?



Alternatives already are. Which is why the peak-rapturists are running so scared as of late.


----------



## JiggsCasey

RGR said:


> Not NOW. But in 2005 it was making the front page of USA Today, above the fold. Of course, peak happened, no one noticed, and certainly it isn't even WORTH talking about now except by backwoods intellectuals who just won't shut up about their religious beliefs.



You are truly the champion of unfalsifiable claim.  It's like a defense mechanism for you. LOL

To you morons, because we can't specify a particular hour of when it happened, we're somehow "wrong." Global liquids production peaked this past decade, and has been relatively flatlined since late 2004. Grow up, and attempt to be intellectually honest for once in your short agenda-driven history here.

Along those lines, pointing to one publication from six years ago does NOT support his claim, regardless of how desperately you try to spin, liar. Sure, there has been a spattering of reports over the past 30 years questioning world oil reserves. But OBVIOUSLY, dick, the assertion made by your loyal follower there was that it's all some ongoing "media blitz" on the topic of peak oil, ..... when it most certainly has NOT been.

If the media actually "blitzed" the topic of global resource depletion, it would be above the fold on A1 every day of every month.  The FACT of the matter is, the mainstream media barely ever mentions it. And NEVER mentions the IEA's latest assessments.

My gawd, do you ever suck at this.


----------



## JiggsCasey

Samson said:


> The real mystery is why academic quackery has risen in price: How does regurgitating the same pathetic predictions for the past 60 years rise in value?



Oh, hey there slow poster. Guess what? They're not the same predictions at all. Different conditions, different paradigm, and obviously, very different outcome already unfolding.

Remove your head from your rectum, and think about doing more reading, and less baseless pontificating.


----------



## editec

Two Thumbs said:


> editec said:
> 
> 
> 
> In the 50s and 60s gas was cheap and people with jobs moved to the burbs and the poor remained behind.
> 
> As gas gets dear, people are moving back into the cities, and the poor are getting displaced.
> 
> People will adapt to changing condition if the changes aren't so rapid that they cannot change in time.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You got a link that shows more poor people are getting displaced? Or one that shows people to moving into cities? Where it is far more expensive to live.
Click to expand...

 

Not really, no.

But having been part of the revitalization of Boston in the 70s and 80s,  where upwardly mobile Yuppies took back the neighborhoods that had once been nice neighborhoods, and then had turned into slums as White FLIGHT happened in the 50s and 60s, I think what I wrote above is a rather well understood phemonema.

The revitalization of the EAST COAST's cities isn't really something that one can debate.

It's _way too_ obvious for that.


----------



## editec

Care4all said:


> Two Thumbs said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> editec said:
> 
> 
> 
> In the 50s and 60s gas was cheap and people with jobs moved to the burbs and the poor remained behind.
> 
> As gas gets dear, people are moving back into the cities, and the poor are getting displaced.
> 
> People will adapt to changing condition if the changes aren't so rapid that they cannot change in time.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You got a link that shows more poor people are getting displaced? Or one that shows people to moving into cities? Where it is far more expensive to live.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> he's saying that IF more people from the suburbs move back in to the city, then the poor will be displaced...
> 
> HOW?
> 
> Because land is limited and housing with it....and due to the limited product...housing....and the higher demand for housing, the price of housing and rent in the city will rise rise and rise....this will eventually displace the poor, who can not afford the higher rents that those from the suburbs moving in to the city can pay.
Click to expand...

 
Actually what I am saying is that this process has been happening since the 1970s.

Pick almost every East coast city and study what's been happening for the last 40 years.

You'll see what I'm talking about.


----------



## Old Rocks

Peak oil is a fact, and right now. The disruption of what we considered our normal weather patterns has begun, with the expected affects on agriculture. And the political disruptions attendent to both these developments are going on right now.

We are going to live in some interesting times from here on.


----------



## KissMy

Bush lifts executive ban on offshore oil drilling on July 14, 2008 *That very day oil prices reversed its climb to its new all time high & began its decline to $33* until Obama took office promising drilling restrictions. Check the crude oil price chart below!


----------



## Foxfyre

Production may have peaked awhile back due to more and more oil reserves being placed off limits and increased regulation and restrictions making it ever more costly to go after.

That is not the same thing as available oil peaking however.

There is plenty of oil still available to harvest--almost certainly enough to meet our needs until we routinely and naturally find something better to replace it as has always been the case with the evolvement of humankind.


----------



## Care4all

KissMy said:


> Bush lifts executive ban on offshore oil drilling on July 14, 2008 That very day oil prices reversed its climb & began its decline to $33 until Obama took office promising drilling restrictions. Check the crude oil price chart below!



how do you know prices didn't fall because Americans pulled back and used less oil?

how do you know this wasn't due to the housing boom crash?

how do you know this is not from the bank failures taking place during this period?

I think, those things above would certainly have to be looked in to, before you can come to this conclusion of yours, Kissmy.....don't you?


----------



## KissMy

World oil supply rose 0.5 mb/d in January, to 88.5 mb/d, on higher OPEC crude output.


----------



## KissMy

Care4all said:


> KissMy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Bush lifts executive ban on offshore oil drilling on July 14, 2008 That very day oil prices reversed its climb & began its decline to $33 until Obama took office promising drilling restrictions. Check the crude oil price chart below!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> how do you know prices didn't fall because Americans pulled back and used less oil?
> 
> how do you know this wasn't due to the housing boom crash?
> 
> how do you know this is not from the bank failures taking place during this period?
> 
> I think, those things above would certainly have to be looked in to, before you can come to this conclusion of yours, Kissmy.....don't you?
Click to expand...


I know what caused the price moves because I have been watching, studying & investing in crude oil, ethanol & alt energy for 10 years now. I have been investing in agricultural commodities for 25 years. I know what is moving the market prices. Everything else is just smoke & mirrors. The Lehman collapse was on September 15th 2008, Oil dropped July 14th 2008. These big banks were heavily invested in crude oil. They own more crude oil than the oil companies do. The sharp drop in oil price hit the banks hard & likely triggered their collapse.


----------



## Care4all

KissMy said:


> Care4all said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> KissMy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Bush lifts executive ban on offshore oil drilling on July 14, 2008 That very day oil prices reversed its climb & began its decline to $33 until Obama took office promising drilling restrictions. Check the crude oil price chart below!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> how do you know prices didn't fall because Americans pulled back and used less oil?
> 
> how do you know this wasn't due to the housing boom crash?
> 
> how do you know this is not from the bank failures taking place during this period?
> 
> I think, those things above would certainly have to be looked in to, before you can come to this conclusion of yours, Kissmy.....don't you?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I know what caused the price moves because I have been watching, studying & investing in crude oil, ethanol & alt energy for 10 years now. I have been investing in agricultural commodities for 25 years. I know what is moving the market prices. Everything else is just smoke & mirrors. The Lehman ceollapse was on September 15th 2008, Oil dropped July 14th 2008. These big banks were heavily invested in crude oil. They own more crude oil than the oil companies do. The sharp drop in oil price hit the banks hard & likely triggered their collapse.
Click to expand...


Well, you may just KNOW IT from your experience, but your chart does not necessarily prove such, not without charts on the other things I mentioned....and analyzing them as well....

Care


----------



## KissMy

*DECEMBER 12, 2008*  WSJ: Times Tough for Energy Overhaul


> President-elect Barack Obama plans soon to introduce his energy and environment team, which will include Nobel Prize-winning physicist Steven Chu as energy secretary and former Environmental Protection Agency
> 
> Administrator Carol Browner as White House energy adviser.
> The team's makeup shows that Mr. Obama plans to put a heavy emphasis on combating climate change and promoting technologies to wean the U.S. off imported oil...
> 
> In a sign of one major internal difference, *Mr. Chu has called for gradually ramping up gasoline taxes over 15 years to coax consumers into buying more-efficient cars and living in neighborhoods closer to work.*


----------



## KissMy

Care4all said:


> Well, you may just KNOW IT from your experience, but your chart does not necessarily prove such, not without charts on the other things I mentioned....and analyzing them as well....
> 
> Care



When will you be through analyzing the charts on the other things you mentioned? MSNBC talking points don't count.


----------



## Care4all

KissMy said:


> Care4all said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well, you may just KNOW IT from your experience, but your chart does not necessarily prove such, not without charts on the other things I mentioned....and analyzing them as well....
> 
> Care
> 
> 
> 
> 
> When will you be through analyzing the charts on the other things you mentioned? MSNBC talking points don't count.
Click to expand...


Nice try on deflection....  

i don't watch msnbc, at all...


----------



## RGR

JiggsCasey said:


> RGR said:
> 
> 
> 
> Not NOW. But in 2005 it was making the front page of USA Today, above the fold. Of course, peak happened, no one noticed, and certainly it isn't even WORTH talking about now except by backwoods intellectuals who just won't shut up about their religious beliefs.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You are truly the champion of unfalsifiable claim.  It's like a defense mechanism for you. LOL
Click to expand...


Notice how you speak....but you don't deny anything I've said. 



			
				JiggsCasey said:
			
		

> To you morons, because we can't specify a particular hour of when it happened, we're somehow "wrong."



And you apparently can't read either. I simply referenced the entire year that Peak Prophets claimed was THE year, I could care less where within the year your Rapture event happened. 

It happened...hope you enjoyed it...now let the adult discuss relevant topics and you go back to your Peak Rapturist sunday school.



			
				JiggsCasey said:
			
		

> Along those lines, pointing to one publication from six years ago does NOT support his claim, regardless of how desperately you try to spin, liar.



I referenced three Priests of Peak as well you halfwit. USA Today was simply the mainstream recognition that yeah, peak oil happened, gee, now lets go back to our lives. Sorry they didn't validate your religion.



			
				JiggsCasey said:
			
		

> If the media actually "blitzed" the topic of global resource depletion, it would be above the fold on A1 every day of every month.



Of course it wouldn't. History shows us why...your Priests claimed peak back in 2005...and your church is still considered crackpot central. So sorry...even the reality of your Rapture event hasn't been more than a blip....certainly we don't have to talk about something manufactured by your religious nutbag friends.


----------



## RGR

Old Rocks said:


> Peak oil is a fact, and right now.




Well...maybe. First it happened in 2000, then 2005, then 2008, and then again in 2010. You do realize that PEAK oil isn't supposed to keep PEAKING over and over again, don't you?


----------



## KissMy

Like I keep telling OldRockHead & Jiggs Crazy, we keep on setting New World Oil Production Records month after month & year after year.  These type of idiots have been telling us we are at peak oil for over 90 years now & they still believe it. 



> In 1919 the director of the U.S. Bureau of Mines predicted that "within the next two to five years the oil fields of this country will reach their maximum production, and from that time on we will face an ever-increasing decline."
> 
> That same year, National Geographic magazine predicted that oil shales in Colorado and Utah would be exploited to produce oil, because the demand for oil could not be met by existing production.
> 
> In January 1920, Dr. George Otis Smith, Director of the United States Geological Survey, in commenting upon our oil supply stated: "The position of the United States in regard to oil can best be characterized as precarious."
> 
> In May 1920, Dr. Smith said: "Americans will have to depend on foreign sources or use less oil, or perhaps both.



*World oil supply rose 0.5 mb/d in January, 2011 to 88.5 mb/d, setting a new record high.*


----------



## KissMy

Bill Clinton: Drilling delays 'ridiculous'


> Former President Bill Clinton said Friday that delays in offshore oil and gas drilling permits are &#8220;ridiculous&#8221; at a time when the economy is still rebuilding... Bill Clinton reportedly criticized delays in oil drilling permits since last year's spill in the Gulf.


----------



## Care4all

KissMy said:


> Like I keep telling OldRockHead & Jiggs Crazy, we keep on setting New World Oil Production Records month after month & year after year.  These type of idiots have been telling us we are at peak oil for over 90 years now & they still believe it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In 1919 the director of the U.S. Bureau of Mines predicted that "within the next two to five years the oil fields of this country will reach their maximum production, and from that time on we will face an ever-increasing decline."
> 
> That same year, National Geographic magazine predicted that oil shales in Colorado and Utah would be exploited to produce oil, because the demand for oil could not be met by existing production.
> 
> In January 1920, Dr. George Otis Smith, Director of the United States Geological Survey, in commenting upon our oil supply stated: "The position of the United States in regard to oil can best be characterized as precarious."
> 
> In May 1920, Dr. Smith said: "Americans will have to depend on foreign sources or use less oil, or perhaps both.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *World oil supply rose 0.5 mb/d in January, 2011 to 88.5 mb/d, setting a new record high.*
Click to expand...


and world oil usage?  Is that at an all time high as well?


----------



## Care4all

KissMy said:


> Bill Clinton: Drilling delays 'ridiculous'
> 
> 
> 
> Former President Bill Clinton said Friday that delays in offshore oil and gas drilling permits are ridiculous at a time when the economy is still rebuilding... Bill Clinton reportedly criticized delays in oil drilling permits since last year's spill in the Gulf.
Click to expand...


the delays have been long, the first company was approved a week or 2 ago....experts seem to think that now that the first company approved has shown that they can cap a bust like BP's, the future approvals should follow at a good pace....at least that's what i read.


----------



## KissMy

Care4all said:


> KissMy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Like I keep telling OldRockHead & Jiggs Crazy, we keep on setting New World Oil Production Records month after month & year after year.  These type of idiots have been telling us we are at peak oil for over 90 years now & they still believe it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In 1919 the director of the U.S. Bureau of Mines predicted that "within the next two to five years the oil fields of this country will reach their maximum production, and from that time on we will face an ever-increasing decline."
> 
> That same year, National Geographic magazine predicted that oil shales in Colorado and Utah would be exploited to produce oil, because the demand for oil could not be met by existing production.
> 
> In January 1920, Dr. George Otis Smith, Director of the United States Geological Survey, in commenting upon our oil supply stated: "The position of the United States in regard to oil can best be characterized as precarious."
> 
> In May 1920, Dr. Smith said: "Americans will have to depend on foreign sources or use less oil, or perhaps both.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *World oil supply rose 0.5 mb/d in January, 2011 to 88.5 mb/d, setting a new record high.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> and world oil usage?  Is that at an all time high as well?
Click to expand...


Yes it is - Global oil product demand for 2010 and 2011 is revised up by 120 kb/d on average on higher-than-expected submissions in non OECD Asia and improved economic prospects for OECD North America. At 87.8 mb/d in 2010, global oil demand rose by 2.8 mb/d year-on-year, and should reach 89.3 mb/d in 2011 (+1.5 mb/d year on-year).


----------



## edthecynic

Care4all said:


> KissMy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Bush lifts executive ban on offshore oil drilling on July 14, 2008 That very day oil prices reversed its climb & began its decline to $33 until Obama took office promising drilling restrictions. Check the crude oil price chart below!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *how do you know prices didn't fall because Americans pulled back and used less oil?*
> 
> how do you know this wasn't due to the housing boom crash?
> 
> how do you know this is not from the bank failures taking place during this period?
> 
> I think, those things above would certainly have to be looked in to, before you can come to this conclusion of yours, Kissmy.....don't you?
Click to expand...

You are exactly right Care.

First of all, oil prices were heading straight down starting July 4, 2008 until they peaked at $147.27 on July 11 due to unrest over Iranian missile tests. They started to decline the very next day, two days before Bush made his speech that added not one single barrel of oil that day.

The real reason for the dramatic drop in oil prices was not due to an increase in SUPPLY, but the dramatic drop in DEMAND!!!!

The law catches up to oil Irwin Kellner - MarketWatch

What is even more interesting is *the reason for this plunge. It is not  so much due to increased supplies of crude as to decreased demand for  the black stuff.* This is indicative of a major change in lifestyles,  personal and corporate.


----------



## KissMy

edthecynic said:


> You are exactly right Care.
> 
> First of all, oil prices were heading straight down starting July 4, 2008 until they peaked at $147.27 on July 11 due to unrest over Iranian missile tests. They started to decline the very next day, two days before Bush made his speech that added not one single barrel of oil that day.
> 
> The real reason for the dramatic drop in oil prices was not due to an increase in SUPPLY, but the dramatic drop in DEMAND!!!!
> 
> The law catches up to oil Irwin Kellner - MarketWatch
> 
> What is even more interesting is *the reason for this plunge. It is not  so much due to increased supplies of crude as to decreased demand for  the black stuff.* This is indicative of a major change in lifestyles,  personal and corporate.



What a load of crap! First you state oil headed straight down starting July 4th, 2008 because of dramatic drop in demand, but then it suddenly made a new all time high on July 11th 2008  You have no clue dude!  First of all the oil numbers & report only come out on Wednesdays. That means when oil stocks, draw downs, supply & demand were tallied up & the Cushing Oklahoma oil storage was lower than expectations on Wednesday July 9th 2008 so the oil speculators drove prices up over the next 2 days culminating in a new all-time high $147.27 trade on Friday July 11th 2008. These traders were willing to head into the weekend holding the most expensive oil ever purchased because they knew that Monday July 14th 2008 was going to bring even higher oil prices & that following Wednesdays lower oil inventories were going to drive prices even higher. Except when that Monday July 14th 2008 came around President Bush had a big surprise waiting for these crude oil speculators. Their days of running oil prices up were over when he opened up the OCS to drilling. This came 2 months after he & congress halted the filling of the Strategic Petroleum Reserve (SPR). The bankers that were using up most of the oil tanker fleet to secretly hold nearly 100 million barrels of oil in "floating storage" knew that the congressional OCS ban was about to expire & the government meant business when it came to increasing oil supply & dropping prices. It took these bankers & speculators about a year to unload all that "floating storage" from those tankers back into the marketplace crushing oil prices. It took almost a year to unload that excess "floating storage" storage even as OPEC reduced production to stabilize prices due to all these tankers unloading oil onto the markets.


----------



## Care4all

kissmy....lack of demand drove the prices down, i vaguely remember the news on it....

the supply did not increase with Bush's announcement, it takes years on new finds....and you are not even talking about a new find....you are talking about just getting permission to look for a new find.....not even a find...there is no way this could have affected the prices....in the way you have speculated.

seriously, the reduction in demand, drove prices downward...which is how it works....and increased demand would have increased prices...


----------



## KissMy

Care4all said:


> kissmy....lack of demand drove the prices down, i vaguely remember the news on it....
> 
> the supply did not increase with Bush's announcement, it takes years on new finds....and you are not even talking about a new find....you are talking about just getting permission to look for a new find.....not even a find...there is no way this could have affected the prices....in the way you have speculated.
> 
> seriously, the reduction in demand, drove prices downward...which is how it works....and increased demand would have increased prices...



Bush caused the speculators hoarding oil in floating storage to panic & that drove the price down. The demand was already lower than supply for a very, very long time & it never affected price because the Crushing Oklahoma storage was not climbing. Where do you think all the floating storage oil came from? Even though there was an over-supply & slack demand of oil the price kept going higher & higher. The US dollar was getting so weak for many years prior due to excess subprime loans that investors wanted to hold oil & gold instead of the value losing US dollars.

Also read up on how the Enron power scam worked. This was the same thing was done on a global scale. The tankers that are normally used to transport oil to markets were used up to park oil out in the ocean where it would not show up in inventory. This gave the illusion of a shortage & reduced the amount of available tankers to transport oil to the USA.


----------



## edthecynic

KissMy said:


> edthecynic said:
> 
> 
> 
> You are exactly right Care.
> 
> First of all, oil prices were heading straight down starting July 4, 2008 until they peaked at $147.27 on July 11 due to unrest over Iranian missile tests. They started to decline the very next day, two days before Bush made his speech that added not one single barrel of oil that day.
> 
> The real reason for the dramatic drop in oil prices was not due to an increase in SUPPLY, but the dramatic drop in DEMAND!!!!
> 
> The law catches up to oil Irwin Kellner - MarketWatch
> 
> What is even more interesting is *the reason for this plunge. It is not  so much due to increased supplies of crude as to decreased demand for  the black stuff.* This is indicative of a major change in lifestyles,  personal and corporate.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What a load of crap! First you state oil headed straight down starting July 4th, 2008 because of dramatic drop in demand, but then it suddenly made a new all time high on July 11th 2008  You have no clue dude!  First of all the oil numbers & report only come out on Wednesdays. That means when oil stocks, draw downs, supply & demand were tallied up & the Cushing Oklahoma oil storage was lower than expectations on Wednesday July 9th 2008 so the oil speculators drove prices up over the next 2 days culminating in a new all-time high $147.27 trade on Friday July 11th 2008. These traders were willing to head into the weekend holding the most expensive oil ever purchased because they knew that Monday July 14th 2008 was going to bring even higher oil prices & that following Wednesdays lower oil inventories were going to drive prices even higher. Except when that Monday July 14th 2008 came around President Bush had a big surprise waiting for these crude oil speculators.
Click to expand...

BALONEY!
As I pointed out, prices were on their way down from July 4, 2008 





> [Past, Present and Future Oil Prices
> [FONT=Verdana, System, Arial]*Oil extends slide into 2nd day, losing over  $5*.  Oil tumbled more than $5 a barrel *Tuesday [7/8/2008]* in its second big drop this week,  hurling crude back to levels not seen since June 26 as traders wary about the health of the global economy  cashed in gains from oil's recent rally.][/FONT]


 until Iran tested a missile and there was speculation that Israel would attack Iran. 





> Past, Present and Future Oil Prices
> [FONT=Verdana, System, Arial]*Oil sets new trading record above $147 a barrel*.  It's only July, but it might be time to start loading up on blankets and  sweaters.  Oil spiked to a new trading record as hostilities rise between the West and Iran  raising the  likelihood that this winter's heating bills will be the priciest yet.
> 
> [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, System, Arial]*Crude Oil Rises to Record on Speculation Israel May Attack Iran*.  Crude oil rose more than $5 to a record on concerns that Israel may be  preparing to attack Iran, while a strike in Brazil and renewed militant activity in Nigeria threaten to cut supplies.[/FONT]


And Bush's announcement had absolutely no effect on the price of oil because even though Bush lifted a ban on Continental Shelf drilling  a Congressional prohibition remained!!!!!!!!!!

Here is a chart of daily oil prices for 2008 up to July, 16:


----------



## HUGGY

Cain said:


> I am asking the forum members to help me out in a question I have.
> 
> What happens when gas/oil becomes too expensive for people to use? I mean, I live 20+ miles from the closest city [closest town is about 10-12] and we live on a farm in the middle of nowhere, we can't exactly bike/walk too town, even though I know I could probably bike 20 miles, I do not believe it would be a option for school lol, although who knows. Thank the lord I am getting out of here in 3 months.
> 
> I have already closed the idea of getting a truck, seeing as how the Jeep I like just as much gets 23-29mpg average, a lot better then 14-20; now I am wondering, are vehicles really all that important? I have no problem riding a horse to work, although I'd prefer a mule or donkey, less issues and have more sense. (Have raised members of all the families, horse/donkey/mule/cow/emu/llama)
> 
> I am just wondering cause I personally have no idea, I mean, the only thing I can think is riots/mobs in the streets trying to figure out how their going to survive.



Keep clinging to your stupid market forces prices on a strategic commodity.  The only way to control the price of a vital national security power supply it to nationalize our oil and buy up the rights to all the oil we can.

Price of a gallon of gas in Venezuela......12 cents.

CNN/Money: Global gas prices


----------



## editec

I think nationalizing the nations oil production would be a disaster.

The solution is to regulate the industry only as much as is necessary to keep that industry from becoming a cancer on the economy.

Right now that NOT what we're doing.


----------



## HUGGY

editec said:


> I think nationalizing the nations oil production would be a disaster.
> 
> The solution is to regulate the industry only as much as is necessary to keep that industry from becoming a cancer on the economy.
> 
> Right now that NOT what we're doing.



At this point every little flare up in the world that could possibly be construed as having a theoretical effect on the delivery of oil to anywhere on earth is an excuse for the speculators to drive up the prices of gas at the pump here in the USA.  THAT is a disaster on our economy.  It is not a POSSIBLE disaster.  It is a real and present disaster.  We need to wake up and decide if our over all economy should be subject to these forces that only benefit a handful of people.

It does not have to be an all or nothing situation.  Even just the presence of a government owned and operated oil production, refining and gasoline/fuel industry would have a significant effect on stabilizing the market fluctuations that effect all commerce in our country.


----------



## spectrumc01

Cain said:


> I am asking the forum members to help me out in a question I have.
> 
> What happens when gas/oil becomes too expensive for people to use? I mean, I live 20+ miles from the closest city [closest town is about 10-12] and we live on a farm in the middle of nowhere, we can't exactly bike/walk too town, even though I know I could probably bike 20 miles, I do not believe it would be a option for school lol, although who knows. Thank the lord I am getting out of here in 3 months.
> 
> I have already closed the idea of getting a truck, seeing as how the Jeep I like just as much gets 23-29mpg average, a lot better then 14-20; now I am wondering, are vehicles really all that important? I have no problem riding a horse to work, although I'd prefer a mule or donkey, less issues and have more sense. (Have raised members of all the families, horse/donkey/mule/cow/emu/llama)
> 
> I am just wondering cause I personally have no idea, I mean, the only thing I can think is riots/mobs in the streets trying to figure out how their going to survive.



First I moved into town six years ago, then I bought a bike four years ago, and now I walk and bike everywhere depending what the weather is.  Snowing... I walk, raining... I ride my bike.  The distance is 2 mi. one way to the first job and several block to the second job.  Sad isn't it... work two jobs and still can't afford gas over other nessecities, i.e. medical bills, food, shelter.


----------



## spectrumc01

editec said:


> I think nationalizing the nations oil production would be a disaster.
> 
> The solution is to regulate the industry only as much as is necessary to keep that industry from becoming a cancer on the economy.
> 
> Right now that NOT what we're doing.



Nationalization may work later, but I would rather see oil taken off the comodity market, to kepp the speculators from artificially inflating the prices.


----------



## edthecynic

editec said:


> I think nationalizing the nations oil production would be a disaster.
> 
> The solution is to regulate the industry only as much as is necessary to keep that industry from becoming a cancer on the economy.
> 
> Right now that NOT what we're doing.


I think the threat of nationalization can be a very powerful tool. Right now, the oil monopoly controls the supply by capping productive wells. By threatening to nationalize all CAPPED wells if the oil is not put on the market, I think would light a fire under the oil monopoly and motivate them to increase supply.


----------



## Samson

Care4all said:


> kissmy....lack of demand drove the prices down, i vaguely remember the news on it....
> 
> ....
> seriously, the reduction in demand, drove prices downward...which is how it works....and increased demand would have increased prices...



So the rise in oil prices ($68.01 - 105.20/BBL) in the past 52 are weeks a result of increased demand?

Thanks for straightening that out for me Care, I could have sworn it had something to do with "Unrest" in Egypt and the fact that nearly 3 million barrels of oil transit daily through the Suez Canal controlled by Egypt.

I also thought that Libya, an oil producing nation that was (is?) having some internal politcal strife might have had something to do with it




> the loss of 1.6 million barrels per day of sweet oil could potentially trigger a steep rise in prices and force a sharp reduction in demand to balance the system.




Actually, I'm being sarcastic.

The price of oil had become inelastic back in October, 2010.



> Crude oil prices have surged to year high recently, as the economy is showing its first signs of recovery. Mark my words: the economy is not booming, far from that. There are however some signs that the worst part is behind us. But a surge in oil prices like we are witnessing seems out of proportion with today's growth, stagnant at best. This is due to the lack of elasticity in crude oil pricing


----------



## Foxfyre

HUGGY said:


> Cain said:
> 
> 
> 
> I am asking the forum members to help me out in a question I have.
> 
> What happens when gas/oil becomes too expensive for people to use? I mean, I live 20+ miles from the closest city [closest town is about 10-12] and we live on a farm in the middle of nowhere, we can't exactly bike/walk too town, even though I know I could probably bike 20 miles, I do not believe it would be a option for school lol, although who knows. Thank the lord I am getting out of here in 3 months.
> 
> I have already closed the idea of getting a truck, seeing as how the Jeep I like just as much gets 23-29mpg average, a lot better then 14-20; now I am wondering, are vehicles really all that important? I have no problem riding a horse to work, although I'd prefer a mule or donkey, less issues and have more sense. (Have raised members of all the families, horse/donkey/mule/cow/emu/llama)
> 
> I am just wondering cause I personally have no idea, I mean, the only thing I can think is riots/mobs in the streets trying to figure out how their going to survive.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Keep clinging to your stupid market forces prices on a strategic commodity.  The only way to control the price of a vital national security power supply it to nationalize our oil and buy up the rights to all the oil we can.
> 
> Price of a gallon of gas in Venezuela......12 cents.
> 
> CNN/Money: Global gas prices
Click to expand...


Do you honestly think that gallon of gasoline only cost 12 cents in Venezuela?  Do you really want to trade our freedoms and liberties for a Venezuelan style government?   Do you really think that if our government would relax all unnecessary regulation and restrictions, including refinery processes, and turned loose our American producers that we would not improve our own situation and produce cheaper fuel?

Right now a single refinery in West Texas supplies gasoline to several surrounding states.  Each state and sometimes each city requires a different forumlation of the gasoline which requires the refinery to shut down and retool before it can make the product to ship to the various places.  That is the story all over the country.  If we would just settle on one formulation that we were all willing to live with, we could greatly increase fuel production overnight which would help.  And producing our own crude oil needs would not only make us less vulnerable to whims of countries that don't like us very much, but would also lower the cost if we can produce enough of it.

Supply and demand is far superior to government controls over the long haul.


----------



## edthecynic

Foxfyre said:


> Right now a single refinery in West Texas supplies gasoline to several surrounding states.  Each state and sometimes each city requires a different forumlation of the gasoline which requires the refinery to shut down and retool before it can make the product to ship to the various places.  That is the story all over the country.*  If we would just settle on one formulation that we were all willing to live with, we could greatly increase fuel production overnight *which would help.


I have to agree with you 100% on that!


----------



## KissMy

edthecynic said:


> And Bush's announcement had absolutely no effect on the price of oil because even though Bush lifted a ban on Continental Shelf drilling  a Congressional prohibition remained!!!!!!!!!!



You are so dumb! Congress had already signaled that they were letting its yearly imposed Congressional OCS ban lapse.

ANWR: Obama defines OCS future for Alaska, the Nation 


> In July 2008 President George W. Bush lifted the Presidential ban on OCS and in September of *that year Congress let lapse its yearly imposed Congressional ban*





> All in all President Obama's plan closed more areas of Americas OCS than it opened, and the areas it opened are only open after study periods and subject to Congressional approval.


----------



## edthecynic

KissMy said:


> edthecynic said:
> 
> 
> 
> And Bush's announcement had absolutely no effect on the price of oil because even though Bush lifted a ban on Continental Shelf drilling  a Congressional prohibition remained!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You are so dumb!* Congress had already signaled that they were letting its yearly imposed Congressional OCS ban lapse.*
> 
> ANWR: Obama defines OCS future for Alaska, the Nation
> 
> 
> 
> In July 2008 President George W. Bush lifted the Presidential ban on OCS and in September of *that year Congress let lapse its yearly imposed Congressional ban*
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> All in all President Obama's plan closed more areas of Americas OCS than it opened, and the areas it opened are only open after study periods and subject to Congressional approval.
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...

So, you are now saying that it was the Democratic Congress that brought down oil prices by signaling they would allow the ban to lapse BEFORE Bush lifted the ban. That would explain why crude prices fell BEFORE the EXACT day Bush lifted the ban. So again Bush's speech had nothing to do with the fall of crude prices, it was Congress' earlier signaling!
Thank you.


----------



## Care4all

no, it was the the fact that demand had reached an all time low....and the recession and bank failures showed demand would stay low....

if you still think it was just a simple announcement of drilling a few years down the road, then you should have no problems showing us any oil find around the world, that made prices go down....there has NOT been one...anywhere that has reduced the price of oil on the market, even a mega find, has not reduced prices on the market....so why you think a simple announcement caused the crash of oil prices is beyond me?


----------



## xsited1

"...the United States&#8217; combined recoverable natural gas, oil and coal endowment is the largest on Earth."

US fossil fuel | Government report shows U.S. oil, natural gas reserves largest in world | The Daily Caller - Breaking News, Opinion, Research, and Entertainment


----------



## Mr. H.

Endowment. I like that.

Sure beats the term "curse", as libs are want to use.


----------



## Douger

JiggsCasey said:


> RGR said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cain said:
> 
> 
> 
> I am just wondering cause I personally have no idea, I mean, the only thing I can think is riots/mobs in the streets trying to figure out how their going to survive.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Crude oil is such a wonderful chemical feedstock that burning it to move ourselves from here to there for cigarettes, beer and fast food is perhaps one of the most ignorant misallocation of resources since the dawn of man.
> 
> But there is just so much of the stuff around..."Why not use it!" seems more like the operative attitude.
> 
> Modify your behavior, and your expectations, and you won't notice rising gas prices in the least.
> 
> My personal example. When gas was $1.50/gal I drove a V8 powered pickup at 13 mpg. At $3/gal I'll drive an Escape Hybrid at 26 mpg.  At $4/gal I'll switch to a Camry hybrid at 39mpg. At $5/gal I buy a Prius.
> 
> Under all these scenario's I spend the exact same amount for fuel, even though the price has gone up by 300%+.
> 
> Correspondingly, you can drive less. Drive half as much for each doubling in price and you'll still pay the same money for fuel. And can keep your Jeep, if that is really want to drive.
> 
> So pick your price point, and make your capital investment accordingly.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Unfortunately, rising fuel prices effects every aspect of the global economy, not just our Sunday driving habits.
> 
> *The price of corn has doubled over the last six months.
> *The price of wheat has more than doubled over the past year.
> *The price of soybeans is up about 50% since last June.
> *The price of cotton has more than doubled over the past year.
> *The commodity price of orange juice has doubled since 2009.
> *The price of sugar is the highest it has been in 30 years.
> 
> Then of course, there's the small business, and it's capacity to hire/maintain employees.
Click to expand...

But there's no inflation !!! 
Gawd Blass murka !!!


----------



## KissMy

Care4all said:


> no, it was the the fact that demand had reached an all time low....and the recession and bank failures showed demand would stay low....
> 
> if you still think it was just a simple announcement of drilling a few years down the road, then you should have no problems showing us any oil find around the world, that made prices go down....there has NOT been one...anywhere that has reduced the price of oil on the market, even a mega find, has not reduced prices on the market....so why you think a simple announcement caused the crash of oil prices is beyond me?




If you think it was demand & not off-shore oil hoarding then why was the Baltic Dry Shipping Index rising while the Baltic Tanker Shipping Index falling?

Commodities traders have learned to use tankers to store oil out of sight in the ocean creating a shortage of available tankers to ship oil to hungry markets there-by driving up the price of the oil they are holding in those tankers.

*Baltic Dry Shipping Index (BDI)*





*Baltic Dirty Tanker Shipping Index (BDTI)*


----------



## Flopper

If you look at the gas price rise from 2001 to 2008, the approximate average increase per year is about 11%.  Of course in any one year gas can jump all over the place.  If 11% is a good number $3.60/gal gas will be right at $10/gal in ten years.   I think this projection is probably on the low side looking at the huge growth in demand from China, India, and third work world countries.

With a fill-up costing $170 to $200, the future for hybrids and electrics look very good.

Gasoline Price History


----------



## Old Rocks

The future looks very good for an algea or bacterial produced replacement for diesel oil. Many modern diesels now exceeding the hybrids on mileage, and are cheaper to produce.

The future of the electrics depends entirely on the manufacture of a reasonably priced high capacity battery.


----------



## Samson

Old Rocks said:


> The future looks very good for an algea or bacterial produced replacement for diesel oil. Many modern diesels now exceeding the hybrids on mileage, and are cheaper to produce.
> 
> The future of the electrics depends entirely on the manufacture of a reasonably priced high capacity battery.





> Algae biodiesel has the potential to replace all crude oil world-wide. If algae farms can achieve their potential, then this could be completed 100 million acres in contrast it would take exponentially much more land to achieve the exact same effect with conventional biofuel crops




How To Transform Algae Biomass Into Useful BioDiesel Fuel? | Remade.info

Only 100 million acres?

That's a third of the 309,607,601 harvested acres in the USA (2007)

United States Fact Sheet: US agriculture income population food education employment unemployment federal funds farms top commodities exports counties financial indicators poverty farm income Rural Nonmetro Urban Metropolitan America USDA organic Cen

Where will these 100, million acres be?


----------



## Old Rocks

Seems to me that the US has something like 6% of the earths land area. Since we are talking about the whole worlds oil production, much of the land would be in other nations. Another point, we presently waste municiple sewage worldwide. That would be a very good nutrient source for this kind of farming.

Also, by mandating much better mileage in the vehicles, not as much would be needed. No, this is not the whole answer, but it could be part of it, along with recharable hybrids. Preferably powered by residential roof mounted solar.


----------



## Samson

Old Rocks said:


> Seems to me that the US has something like 6% of the earths land area. Since we are talking about the whole worlds oil production, much of the land would be in other nations. Another point, we presently waste municiple sewage worldwide. That would be a very good nutrient source for this kind of farming.
> 
> Also, by mandating much better mileage in the vehicles, not as much would be needed. No, this is not the whole answer, but it could be part of it, along with recharable hybrids. Preferably powered by residential roof mounted solar.



So I guess the answer is: You don't have the foggiest idea where 100 million acres would be.

Thanks for confirming yet another hair-brained idea.


----------



## edthecynic

Samson said:


> Old Rocks said:
> 
> 
> 
> The future looks very good for an algea or bacterial produced replacement for diesel oil. Many modern diesels now exceeding the hybrids on mileage, and are cheaper to produce.
> 
> The future of the electrics depends entirely on the manufacture of a reasonably priced high capacity battery.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Algae biodiesel has the potential to* replace all crude oil world-wide.* If algae farms can achieve their potential, then this could be completed 100 million acres in contrast it would take exponentially much more land to achieve the exact same effect with conventional biofuel crops
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> How To Transform Algae Biomass Into Useful BioDiesel Fuel? | Remade.info
> 
> Only 100 million acres?
> 
> *That's a third of the 309,607,601 harvested acres in the USA *(2007)
> 
> United States Fact Sheet: US agriculture income population food education employment unemployment federal funds farms top commodities exports counties financial indicators poverty farm income Rural Nonmetro Urban Metropolitan America USDA organic Cen
> 
> Where will these 100, million acres be?
Click to expand...




Samson said:


> Old Rocks said:
> 
> 
> 
> Seems to me that *the US has something like 6% of the earths land area. Since we are talking about the whole worlds oil production, much of the land would be in other nations.* Another point, we presently waste municiple sewage worldwide. That would be a very good nutrient source for this kind of farming.
> 
> Also, by mandating much better mileage in the vehicles, not as much would be needed. No, this is not the whole answer, but it could be part of it, along with recharable hybrids. Preferably powered by residential roof mounted solar.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *So I guess the answer is: You don't have the foggiest idea where 100 million acres would be.*
> 
> Thanks for confirming yet another hair-brained idea.
Click to expand...

Thanks for confirming that you have no explanation why all the world's crude oil has to be produced in the USA.

BTW Algae can also be used to create biofuel.






Oilgae Report - Algae Fuel Report, Algae Oil, Energy - Market, Data, Business
*Why are algae so exciting from a renewable energy standpoint? For a number of reasons*



The yields of oil and fuels from algae are much higher (10-100 times) than competing energy crops
 Algae can grow practically anywhere, thus ensuring that there is no competition with food crops.
 Algae are excellent bioremediation agents - they have the potential to absorb massive amounts of CO2 and can play an important role in sewage and wastewater treatment.
 Algae are the only feedstock that have the potential to completely replace world's consumption of transportation fuels.
Algae are already being used in a wide variety of industries and  applications, and many newer applications are being discovered. Such a  wide range of end-uses enable companies to produce both fuels and  non-fuel products from the same algae feedstock


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## Samson

edthecynic said:


> Samson said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Old Rocks said:
> 
> 
> 
> The future looks very good for an algea or bacterial produced replacement for diesel oil. Many modern diesels now exceeding the hybrids on mileage, and are cheaper to produce.
> 
> The future of the electrics depends entirely on the manufacture of a reasonably priced high capacity battery.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How To Transform Algae Biomass Into Useful BioDiesel Fuel? | Remade.info
> 
> Only 100 million acres?
> 
> *That's a third of the 309,607,601 harvested acres in the USA *(2007)
> 
> United States Fact Sheet: US agriculture income population food education employment unemployment federal funds farms top commodities exports counties financial indicators poverty farm income Rural Nonmetro Urban Metropolitan America USDA organic Cen
> 
> Where will these 100, million acres be?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Samson said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Old Rocks said:
> 
> 
> 
> Seems to me that *the US has something like 6% of the earths land area. Since we are talking about the whole worlds oil production, much of the land would be in other nations.* Another point, we presently waste municiple sewage worldwide. That would be a very good nutrient source for this kind of farming.
> 
> Also, by mandating much better mileage in the vehicles, not as much would be needed. No, this is not the whole answer, but it could be part of it, along with recharable hybrids. Preferably powered by residential roof mounted solar.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> *So I guess the answer is: You don't have the foggiest idea where 100 million acres would be.*
> 
> Thanks for confirming yet another hair-brained idea.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Thanks for confirming that you have no explanation why all the world's crude oil has to be produced in the USA.
Click to expand...


Gee another vague answer to a simple question.

Yep, sure sounds like a great imaginary idea.

Let's try a third time, just for grins, shall we?

_WHERE WILL THE 100 million ACRES BE?_


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## Flopper

When we first started using oil as a fuel, production was a pretty simple process, you scooped it up in bucket.  That didn't last very long before we were drilling wells and pumping it out.  

Did you know the average oil well has a life of 10 to 25 years, 10 to 15 for offshore well?  As a rule of thumb, 75% of the oil is produced in the first three years.  From then on production falls until operating costs out weight the profits.  Then new wells have to be drilled and finally more oil has to be discovered.  As we look harder to find oil and drill deeper and deeper the cost of development and  production rises.  OPEC who controls 40% of the oil help insure a continued rise in price.

With a huge and increasing demand from developing nations, increasing production and development  costs, tighter environmental laws worldwide, and higher taxes on petroleum, gasoline is going nowhere but up. $10/gal and higher is on it's way.  If the current rates of increase in gasoline prices over the last 10 years continue we will see that price within 10 years.  This is going to make alternative energy a cheap alternative, and is certainly going to drive the development for even cheaper alternatives and more efficient vehicles.


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## edthecynic

Samson said:


> edthecynic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Samson said:
> 
> 
> 
> How To Transform Algae Biomass Into Useful BioDiesel Fuel? | Remade.info
> 
> Only 100 million acres?
> 
> *That's a third of the 309,607,601 harvested acres in the USA *(2007)
> 
> United States Fact Sheet: US agriculture income population food education employment unemployment federal funds farms top commodities exports counties financial indicators poverty farm income Rural Nonmetro Urban Metropolitan America USDA organic Cen
> 
> Where will these 100, million acres be?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Samson said:
> 
> 
> 
> *So I guess the answer is: You don't have the foggiest idea where 100 million acres would be.*
> 
> Thanks for confirming yet another hair-brained idea.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Thanks for confirming that you have no explanation why all the world's crude oil has to be produced in the USA.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Gee another vague answer to a simple question.
> 
> Yep, sure sounds like a great imaginary idea.
> 
> Let's try a third time, just for grins, shall we?
> 
> _WHERE WILL THE 100 million ACRES BE?_
Click to expand...

Up your fat ass!


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## KissMy

- Where do we get 100 million acres worth of plastic bags to grow algae in?
- It takes crude oil to make those bags.
- How do you get the slimy clingy algae out of the bag & can the bag be re-used after that?
- How long until you have to replace those bags?
- How much fresh water will this take?
- What do you do with the algae waste after you squeeze the oil out?
- How do you get algae feed into those bags?
- How much energy does all of this consume per amount of energy returned?


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## Samson

edthecynic said:


> Samson said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> edthecynic said:
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks for confirming that you have no explanation why all the world's crude oil has to be produced in the USA.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Gee another vague answer to a simple question.
> 
> Yep, sure sounds like a great imaginary idea.
> 
> Let's try a third time, just for grins, shall we?
> 
> _WHERE WILL THE 100 million ACRES BE?_
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Up your fat ass!
Click to expand...


Third Childish Answer.

Wanna go for Four?

Obviously, the imagination of the BioDiesel Alge Croud is pretty limited, so don't hurt yourself.


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## Flopper

zzzz said:


> We have alternative fuels to power vehicles. The cost and applicability of them are why they are not being used to their full extent. But it is not powering our vehicles that we must worry about. Oil is used to make all of the following:
> Solvents
> Diesel fuel
> Motor Oil
> Bearing Grease
> Ink
> Floor Wax
> Ballpoint Pens
> Football Cleats
> Upholstery
> Sweaters
> Boats
> Insecticides
> Bicycle Tires
> Sports Car Bodies
> Nail Polish
> Fishing lures
> Dresses
> Tires
> Golf Bags
> Perfumes
> Cassettes
> Dishwasher parts
> Tool Boxes
> Shoe Polish
> Motorcycle Helmet
> Caulking
> Petroleum Jelly
> Transparent Tape
> CD Player
> Faucet Washers
> Antiseptics
> Clothesline
> Curtains
> Food Preservatives
> Basketballs
> Soap
> Vitamin Capsules
> Antihistamines
> Purses
> Shoes
> Dashboards
> Cortisone
> Deodorant
> Footballs
> Putty
> Dyes
> Panty Hose
> Refrigerant
> Percolators
> Life Jackets
> Rubbing Alcohol
> Linings
> Skis
> TV Cabinets
> Shag Rugs
> Electrician's Tape
> Tool Racks
> Car Battery Cases
> Epoxy
> Paint
> Mops
> Slacks
> Insect Repellent
> Oil Filters
> Umbrellas
> Yarn
> Fertilizers
> Hair Coloring
> Roofing
> Toilet Seats
> Fishing Rods
> Lipstick
> Denture Adhesive
> Linoleum
> Ice Cube Trays
> Synthetic Rubber
> Speakers
> Plastic Wood
> Electric Blankets
> Glycerin
> Tennis Rackets
> Rubber Cement
> Fishing Boots
> Dice
> Nylon Rope
> Candles
> Trash Bags
> House Paint
> Water Pipes
> Hand Lotion
> Roller Skates
> Surf Boards
> Shampoo
> Wheels
> Paint Rolers
> Shower Curtains
> Guitar Strings
> Luggage
> Aspirin
> Safety Glasses
> Antifreeze
> Football Helmets
> Awnings
> Eyeglasses
> Clothes
> Toothbrushes
> Ice Chests
> Footballs
> Combs
> CD's & DVD's
> Paint Brushes
> Detergents
> Vaporizers
> Balloons
> Sun Glasses
> Tents
> Heart Valves
> Crayons
> Parachutes
> Telephones
> Enamel
> Pillows
> Dishes
> Cameras
> Anesthetics
> Artificial Turf
> Artificial limbs
> Bandages
> Dentures
> Model Cars
> Folding Doors
> Hair Curlers
> Cold cream
> Movie film
> Soft Contact lenses
> Drinking Cups
> Fan Belts
> Car Enamel
> Shaving Cream
> Ammonia
> Refrigerators
> Golf Balls
> Toothpaste
> Gasoline
> 
> And that's only 144 of the over 6000 items that are created form oil.


For most of the products you listed, oil is needed for the manufacture of the plastic components.  Plastics can be made from a variety of organic material from wood to potatoes. One of the primary reasons we use so much plastic instead of metal is cost.  As oil prices continues to rise, we may see more manufactures using metal components.   But make no mistake, the driving force behind oil production is fuel, not byproducts.


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