# Toddler finds mother shot dead in Umm al-Fahm



## Lipush (Apr 28, 2013)

The body of a woman was found Sunday in the northern Israeli city of Umm al-Fahm. The victim, of approximately 30 years of age, was apparently shot to death.

Police say the woman's son, a toddler of about three years of age, discovered the dead body as he walked into the family home in the Arab-populated town. 

Toddler finds mother shot dead in Umm al-Fahm - Israel News, Ynetnews


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## SherriMunnerlyn (Apr 28, 2013)

Lipush said:


> The body of a woman was found Sunday in the northern Israeli city of Umm al-Fahm. The victim, of approximately 30 years of age, was apparently shot to death.
> 
> Police say the woman's son, a toddler of about three years of age, discovered the dead body as he walked into the family home in the Arab-populated town.
> 
> Toddler finds mother shot dead in Umm al-Fahm - Israel News, Ynetnews



That is an awful thing, and the women are the victims in these honor killings typically. I was reading not long ago about a recent honor killing where a father and his son killed a daughter supposedly caught meeting a neighbor boy in the middle of the night. I think it happened in Gaza, and while the men were arrested I do not know how their crimes will be treated. The mother wanted them punished. She was distraught. She had been with a sick relative when it happened and came home to find her daughter killed by her own father and brother.


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## Coyote (Apr 28, 2013)

Lipush said:


> The body of a woman was found Sunday in the northern Israeli city of Umm al-Fahm. The victim, of approximately 30 years of age, was apparently shot to death.
> 
> Police say the woman's son, a toddler of about three years of age, discovered the dead body as he walked into the family home in the Arab-populated town.
> 
> Toddler finds mother shot dead in Umm al-Fahm - Israel News, Ynetnews



How horrible ... the poor child was sleeping next to his mother when she was killed...

The article states:  



> Police are looking into the possibility that the suspected murder was related to a dispute within the family.
> 
> Some 150 people took part in a protest over the weekend against the murder of women in Arab society. The demonstration was held at the entrance to the Israeli-Arab community of Kfar Qara along Route 65. *The protesters, most of which were women, held signs with the names of female victims of honor killings and demanded an immediate end to violence targeting women.*



Violence against women is so often put on the back burner in so many cultures.  Like the horrible rape in India.  Women need to take back their freedom from violence but as long as authorities look the other way, not much changes


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## proudveteran06 (Apr 28, 2013)

They're just following their " religion".  I thought we believed in freedom of religion.  If this women were Jewish the two Hypocritical Pro Palestinian Posters wouldn't give a SHIT which is exactly how I feel.


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## Coyote (Apr 28, 2013)

proudveteran06 said:


> They're just following their " religion".  I thought we believed in freedom of religion.  If this women were Jewish the two Hypocritical Pro Palestinian Posters wouldn't give a SHIT which is exactly how I feel.



So you support violence against women then?

Somehow, I'm not surprised.


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## Hossfly (Apr 28, 2013)

Coyote said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> > The body of a woman was found Sunday in the northern Israeli city of Umm al-Fahm. The victim, of approximately 30 years of age, was apparently shot to death.
> ...


First the authorities have to say that honor killings are wrong.  That would be a start.

Abbas aide: No plans to outlaw 'honor killing' | Maan News Agency


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## toastman (Apr 28, 2013)

Is it just me, or do honor killing seem to be on the rise ?? I feel like I've been hearing more and more of these stories in the past year or so


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## Hossfly (Apr 28, 2013)

toastman said:


> Is it just me, or do honor killing seem to be on the rise ?? I feel like I've been hearing more and more of these stories in the past year or so


And the sad part about this practice is the killer(s) is the only one who has had his "honor" offended. The public and the rest of the family normally isn't aware of any "offenses" by the girl/woman. The SOB should be beheaded in the town square.


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## Capstone (Apr 28, 2013)

Another story of violence from the very same website.



> The police have launched an investigation into an alleged assault of an Arab woman in Jerusalem on Monday.
> A witness claims a group of Jewish women attacked an Arab woman near the Light Rail station in the Kiryat Moshe neighborhood, hitting and yelling at her.



Who knows, maybe the incidents are somehow related?

Of course, the shooting victim might simply have fallen prey to some out-of-control Mossad agent...


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## Hossfly (Apr 28, 2013)

Capstone said:


> Another story of violence from the very same website.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You too could be replaced by a lab rat. Ever think of that?


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## Capstone (Apr 29, 2013)

Hossfly said:


> You too could be replaced by a lab rat. Ever think of that?



Why should I?

Even if such a thing were true, threats of what might befall me for expressing my sincere convictions have never worked as intended.


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## Hossfly (Apr 29, 2013)

Capstone said:


> Hossfly said:
> 
> 
> > You too could be replaced by a lab rat. Ever think of that?
> ...


"It's a joke son"!
~~Foghorn Leghorn


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## Capstone (Apr 29, 2013)

Hossfly said:


> Capstone said:
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> > Hossfly said:
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In more ways than one...


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## proudveteran06 (Apr 29, 2013)

Coyote said:


> proudveteran06 said:
> 
> 
> > They're just following their " religion".  I thought we believed in freedom of religion.  If this women were Jewish the two Hypocritical Pro Palestinian Posters wouldn't give a SHIT which is exactly how I feel.
> ...



The Pro Palestinians do. They don't see anything wrong with an entire family being murdered which obviously included women as long as they are Jewish.The hypocrite speaks again.. Their infant son was BEHEADED! Do you support that? Of course you do.I"m not surprised at all!


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## proudveteran06 (Apr 29, 2013)

proudveteran06 said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > proudveteran06 said:
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One very important point; When I had mentioned the family in a prior post there wasn't one Pro Palestinian with ANY degree of sorrow or empathy!!!! However what was even more disgusting was that Pro Palestinian bitch Sheri saying she asked for it because she was on " occupied land " . However what is really disgusting is that she claimed Ms Fogel DESERVED IT because she taught " terrorism " to the young Israeli girls. Of course when asked to produce the link there was nobody home. Didn't see you condemn that!!!! You can take your racist Double Standard and shove it up your ass


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## Lipush (Apr 29, 2013)

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> > The body of a woman was found Sunday in the northern Israeli city of Umm al-Fahm. The victim, of approximately 30 years of age, was apparently shot to death.
> ...



Hope they find who did this.

Poor kid


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## Lipush (Apr 29, 2013)

Coyote said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> > The body of a woman was found Sunday in the northern Israeli city of Umm al-Fahm. The victim, of approximately 30 years of age, was apparently shot to death.
> ...



Yes.

Problem is, our authorities are very hesitant to get involved in cultural issues such as this one. of course they'll investigate each case up to what they can do, but as a phenomenon they pretty much put it aside, out of many reasons.


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## proudveteran06 (Apr 29, 2013)

Lipush said:


> Coyote said:
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> > Lipush said:
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There is a difference between what happened here and what happened in India. The former is about their " religion" where the latter was just plain violence. In the US there have been " Honor Killings". Any " outrage" about their " religious practices"? Of course not!!!


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## irosie91 (Apr 29, 2013)

toastman said:


> Is it just me, or do honor killing seem to be on the rise ?? I feel like I've been hearing more and more of these stories in the past year or so



toast ---it seems to me that they have simply become a topic----honor killings are 
nothing new


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## SherriMunnerlyn (Apr 29, 2013)

I do not think it has anything to do with religion, honor killings, I think it is more cultural like the female circumcisions are. In Iraq, for example, there are certain Kurdish areas where female circimcisions are carried out. In some of the countries in the Middle East, there are literally hundreds of different tribes who have their own dialects and customs. When you see a village like Nabi Saleh, for example,  where all the residents have the surname Tamimi, you are dealing with a specific tribe of people with their own history and customs.


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## irosie91 (Apr 29, 2013)

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> I do not think it has anything to do with religion, honor killings, I think it is more cultural like the female circumcisions are. In Iraq, for example, there are certain Kurdish areas where female circimcisions are carried out. In some of the countries in the Middle East, there are literally hundreds of different tribes who have their own dialects and customs. When you see a village like Nabi Saleh, for example,  where all the residents have the surname Tamimi, you are dealing with a specific tribe of people with their own history and customs.



Thanks so much for a paragraph from the mosque literature ---sherri.
In fact----circumcision is not only ALMOST totally a practice of muslims---
it exists in virtually all places where islam was imposed----in some places 
it is rare.    In general it is not at all prevalent in Iran ---or Pakistan.---but 
it still exists.     It is exremely rare in non muslim populations----
with the exception of some groups in subsaharan africa  (CHECK THE  
W.H.O findings ----or---go to a nice large medical library).  In the 
world today---female circumcision is  A MUSLIM religious 
practice 

As to arabic ----it has the characteristic of the majority of its 
speakers being illiterate-----when a language is spoken 
but not written----is does change lots and persons from 
different places do not understand each other in speech    SO???

      the rest of your post is chock full of misleading assertions
and errors----but that is ok-----you lie all the time


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## irosie91 (Apr 29, 2013)

as to surnames in the middle east-----lots and lots of them 
are simply the name of the place the person comes from 
with  an   "i"  at the end----indicating that fact---eventually 
the name follows the people over generations,    See? 
I can supply baby information ----but I leave out the  
misleading propaganda crap that you throw in.    
keep up the good garbage,   sherri


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## irosie91 (Apr 29, 2013)

regarding  "honor killings"    to say it has nothing to do 
islam----is a very misleading statement.    Islamic law 
is  very very lenient   on the killing of female relatives 
for sexual indiscretion.    It is also very very lenient on
the killing of non muslims    and rape of non muslims. 
Both are actually legal if the non muslim is not "under the 
protection" of a muslim governor ----even then they
cannot be considered  capital crimes

shariah law is easy,   sherri----regarding the 
"legal interactions"   between men and women--
just think of  non muslims as blacks in the old south.

the laws and customs are derived from the same 
sources


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## SherriMunnerlyn (Apr 29, 2013)

My husband  was raised as a Muslim and he was not taught honor killings were a teaching of Islam and I do not think it is.


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## SherriMunnerlyn (Apr 29, 2013)

*killings in historyAs noted by Christian Arab writer, Norma Khouri, honor killings originate from the belief that a woman&#8217;s chastity is the property of her families, a cultural norm that comes "from our ancient tribal days, from the*Hammurabi*and Assyrian tribes of 1200 B.C."[27]Matthew A. Goldstein, J.D. (Arizona), has also noted that honor killings were encouraged in ancient Rome, where male family members who did not take actions against the female adulterers in their family were "actively persecuted".[28]The origin of honor killings and the control of women is evidenced throughout history in the culture and tradition of many regions. TheRoman law*of*pater familias*gave complete control to the men of the family for both their children and wives. Under these laws, the lives of children and wives were at the sole discretion of the men in their family. Ancient Roman Law also established historical roots of honor killings through the law stating that women found guilty of adultery could be killed by their husband in whatever manner the husband desired. In ancient Rome, being raped was seen as dishonorable to the point of destroying a woman's life and reputation, and honor killing was supposed to be a "merciful" act.[citation needed]In Greece also, the lives of women were dictated by their husbands as women were considered socially below males.[29]Among the*Amerindian*Aztecs*and*Incas, adultery was punishable by death.[28]Qays bin Asim, ancient leader of*Banu Tamim*is credited by some historians as the first to kill children on the basis of honor. It is recorded that he murdered all of his daughters to prevent them from ever causing him any kind of dishonor.   http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honor_killing


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## irosie91 (Apr 29, 2013)

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> My husband  was raised as a Muslim and he was not taught honor killings were a teaching of Islam and I do not think it is.




If your husband was raised in Iran----as a shiite muslim---it is unlikely 
that he ever read the koran in any language.    I have known many 
Iranian muslims   ---none could either read arabic or ever read the 
koran. ----and kinda laugh at the very thought of doing so.     I do not 
recall anyone saying that muslims are "taught"  that  "honor killings"  
are legal.    In islamic law ---fathers ---and whoever is the guardian 
of a woman ----have remarkable powers over her.----violations 
of   islamic law ----such as going out of the home without 
permission -----after dusk----etc etc are considered  BLASPHEMY----
a capital crime for adherents of strict islamic law.    If a muslim 
carries out  ISLAMIC LAW upon  the woman under his control----
he has comitted what amounts to no crime.    In fact the same 
is true for  slaves and non muslims in islamic law.     Nothing 
unique----roman law gave the PATERFAMILIAS  the right 
to execute members of his own family----and slaves   --   I am 
amazed that lawyers are not required to know anything about 
the HISTORY OF LAW-----lots of islamic law is derived  from 
the same sources  from which   Constantine elaborated that which 
became the JUSTINIAN CODE---and from which adolf abu ali---
derived the nuremburg laws.


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## SherriMunnerlyn (Apr 29, 2013)

You read a little bit and learn honor killing has a history that predates Islam and it isva cultural practice with nothing to do with religion.


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## irosie91 (Apr 29, 2013)

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> You read a little bit and learn honor killing has a history that predates Islam and it isva cultural practice with nothing to do with religion.




anyone who knows anything ---knows that honor killing predates islam as does 
pita.      Circumcision also predates islam  ----as does the concept of  
VIRGINITY.            the statement that these issues  (excluding pita)  
have nothing to do with  RELIGION    is ----even for you-----
utterly idiotic       Sherri---you know nothing at all about islam---
which is not surprising if your entire source is an Iranian who left 
Iran.      If you want to know something about islam----ask roudy.
He has EXPERIENCED it  


of course you could ask  ISA      but ----the iranians do not speak 
arabic as does isa.


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## proudveteran06 (Apr 29, 2013)

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> My husband  was raised as a Muslim and he was not taught honor killings were a teaching of Islam and I do not think it is.



http://http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2013/apr/15/pregnant-womans-throat-slit-jordan-honor-killing/


Pregnant woman's throat slit in Jordan 'honor killing' - Washington Times













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Pregnant womans throat slit in Jordan honor killing



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By Jessica Chasmar

-

The Washington Times

Monday, April 15, 2013 




**FILE** Jordanian women are seen March 12, 2010, during a rally in Deir Alla west of Amman, Jordan, to express solidarity with Palestinians following clashes between Israeli police and Palestinians in Jerusalem. (Associated Press) 
Enlarge Photo
**FILE** Jordanian women are seen March 12, 2010, during a rally in ... more >



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Jordanian police reported an apparent honor killing Sunday after finding the burned body of a pregnant woman whose throat had been slit and abdomen cut open to expose the fetus.

Authorities found the womans body at dawn in Ruseifeh, east of Amman, Agence France Presse reported.

Her throat was slit in a hideous way. The body was burned after the murder, a police spokesman said. We believe it was an honor crime. The belly of the woman, who was in her twenties, was cut open and we could see her four-month-old unborn child, who was dead too.

Between 15 and 20 women die in so-called honor killings each year in the Arab world, according to AFP.

Murder is punishable by death in Jordan, but courts can reduce sentences for honor killings, particularly if the victims family asks for leniency


Read more: Pregnant woman's throat slit in Jordan 'honor killing' - Washington Times 
Follow us: [MENTION=39892]Was[/MENTION]htimes on Twitter


This " Christian" woman is lying again.  That is all she does.  Something that is " learned" no doubt. Could you imagine her reaction if this happened to a JEWISH WOMEN inside Israel?     She would be yelling and screaming about the RELIGION !!


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## irosie91 (Apr 29, 2013)

for the record---the  rights of the  PATERFAMILIAS   in roman 
law to execute anyone in his family or his slaves ----was ALSO 
an aspect of the religion of the romans   

Virginity---and the seclusion even of married women 
was also an ABSOLUTE must in ancient greece. 

yes  ---sherri-----like  thousands of years ago---lots 
of people did it.       I was referring to the islamic 
cultures that are still extant----like the one in the country 
in which my hubby was born    and the one that the  
Iranians REVIVED  in  the late 1970s     and the one that 
the arab SPRING is  in the act of reviving   --
-OSAMA's islam 
(for the sunnis) 
                       and UM-two boys bostoni

    (there is a new custom for   lag b'omer----the eating of picnic 
      roasted potatoes-----jews did not invent potatoes or the eating 
      thereof-----and bar kochba  never saw a potato----but now 
      it is a JEWISH CUSTOM to eat picnic roasted potatoes on 
      lag'b'omer)   Muslims did not invent circumcision----but TODAY 
'     the overwhelming majority of those who practice doing so 
      are muslims  doing it as a religious rite.   Dead girl for 
      sexual indiscretion---or refusal to marry family chosen 
      man---etc etc ---is way out of proportion to population---
      muslim girl.    In fact also true in the USA 

      On the other hand----the only   death of husband by 
      cleaning a gun by wife-----that I heard about---three 
      of them-----were by texans ---the event taking place 
      in texas and----at least one of the gun cleaners 
      was a baptist-----I do not know the religions of the 
      other two,,      I believe that killing ones 
      husband does precede  the existence of  
      baptists in texas.    I do not have enough data 
      ( as I do regarding the issue of islamic female 
        cicumcision)  to describe  gun cleaning killing 
      of husbands as  a  "texas baptist"  thing


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## Coyote (Apr 29, 2013)

proudveteran06 said:


> SherriMunnerlyn said:
> 
> 
> > My husband  was raised as a Muslim and he was not taught honor killings were a teaching of Islam and I do not think it is.
> ...



No.  She is not lying.  Please show me where in the Quran or Hadith's it states that honor killing is Islamic.  Otherwise, perhaps you should admit you are lying.


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## Coyote (Apr 29, 2013)

Hossfly said:


> Coyote said:
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Pakistan outlaws 'honor' killings - CSMonitor.com

https://sites.google.com/site/roblwagnerarchives/the-myth-of-honor-killings


> Do Muslims as a rule condone honor killings? Of course not. Syria's
> grand mufti, cleric Ahmad Hassoun, has condemned the crime as
> un-Islamic. Forty Pakistani religious scholars issued a joint fatwa in
> 2006 against honor killings, branding the practice as contrary to the
> ...



From Wikipedia:
According to Dr. Shahrzad Mojab, a University of Toronto professor of womens studies, followers of Hinduism, Islam, Judaism and Christianity have used their religions as a rationale to commit honour killings. However, Mojab stated that honor killings dont have any definite connection with religion at all. She also pointed out that honor killings have been practised before any major religion came into existence.  Also according to Widney Brown, the advocacy director of Human Rights Watch, said that the practice goes across cultures and across religions. Human rights advocates have compared honor killing to crimes of passion in Latin America (which are sometimes treated extremely leniently) and also to the killing of women for lack of dowry in India.

Debating the Death Sentence for Honor Killings

Shafia Murders: Imams Issue Fatwa Against Honour Killings, Domestic Violence

RELIGION - US imams issue fatwa against the honor killings

Shi?a fatwa against honor killings | the human province

Chief justice: 'Honor killing' unacceptable in Islam


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## Coyote (Apr 29, 2013)

proudveteran06 said:


> Coyote said:
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Really?  Please show me proof of this alledged wide spread support for honor killings amonst us pro-palestinians.


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## Coyote (Apr 29, 2013)

proudveteran06 said:


> proudveteran06 said:
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What family?  Do you mean the Fogels?  Has it occurred to you that that is old news, much discussed and with much empathy already given and your attempt to continue bringing it up in other threads is little more self-serving thread derailment?



> However what was even more disgusting was that Pro Palestinian bitch Sheri saying she asked for it because she was on " occupied land " . However what is really disgusting is that she claimed Ms Fogel DESERVED IT because she taught " terrorism " to the young Israeli girls. Of course when asked to produce the link there was nobody home. Didn't see you condemn that!!!! You can take your racist Double Standard and shove it up your ass



We'll overlook your own racist double standard for now.  How about discussing the OP rather than dragging other murders into this thread?  Try it.  It ain't rocket science.


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## Coyote (Apr 29, 2013)

proudveteran06 said:


> Lipush said:
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There is no diffference, but I'll humor you.  Let's pretend there is a difference.  Where in the Quran does it permit honor killing?


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## proudveteran06 (Apr 29, 2013)

Coyote said:


> proudveteran06 said:
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  I was obviously referring to the Fogel family . Among the Palestinians there was approval and thirst for more blood.  Didn't see you condemning that Brutal Act. 

  While we are at it, show me proof that I " support violence against women'.


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## proudveteran06 (Apr 29, 2013)

Coyote said:


> proudveteran06 said:
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  Answer your question with a question;  In what name of what " RELIGION" are " HONOR KILLINGS" practiced??  Why isn't it done in other religions?


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## proudveteran06 (Apr 29, 2013)

Coyote said:


> proudveteran06 said:
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  I never said she deserved it unlike Sheri who stated that Ms. Fogel did. Wouldn't expect you to understand that though. So exactly what makes me " racist?"   Because I refuse to get upset about what Arab Men do to Arab Women ?   

    Maybe you would be better off using your hostility towards those " Christians" who do not condemn the Muslim enslaving and killing of Christians.  Naaaaa.... That would be asking to much.    Besides, I can't ask you to think beyond the thread.  


http://http://jurist.org/dateline/2012/06/abeer-hashayka-honor-killings.php


JURIST - Dateline


The number of women killed in Palestine as the result of honor killings has been growing because of the absence of a deterrent law, the phenomenon of violence against women and the mentality that sexual freedom of women brings shame to the family. According to Lona Saadeh in Recommendations to reduce the local phenomenon of violence against women in the West Bank and the Gaza Strip, statistics show that between the years 2004 to 2006, 32 women in Palestine were killed as the result of honor killings for being unfaithful. However, legal and medical evidence from criminal investigations proved that no evidence of infidelity existed in the majority of these instances. In some cases, merely having a conversation with a man merited killing. Often, families who kill their daughters because of honor were found guilty of assaulting them. Statistics from the Women's Center for Legal Aid and Counseling showed that up to eight women were killed in 2008 as a result of being sexually abused by one of their family members.

In 1967, before the Israeli occupation of the Palestinian territories, Jordan ruled the West Bank and Egypt ruled the Gaza Strip. As a result, the West Bank applies Jordanian law and the Gaza Strip applies Egyptian law. The legislative policy in the Jordanian Penal Code of 1960, which is applicable in the West Bank, is to protect people from any crime and to impose sanctions on perpetrators. Although the legislature has criminalized the act of killing, it has also provided honor killers with leniency. In the circumstances of an "honor killing," the male assailant either goes free without punishment in the case of "extenuating circumstances," or he may be imprisoned for a period of one to six months.

Article 340a of the Penal Code states that "every man who takes by surprise his wife or any female relative while committing adultery or fornication with another man and as a result kills, wounds or harms both of them or either of them is entitled to the quit circumstances." Article 98, meanwhile, guarantees "a lighter sentence for male killers who have committed a crime in a fit of fury caused by an unlawful or dangerous act on the part of the victim."

This law either protects men completely or allows for a lesser sentence for honor killings. However, if a woman were to kill any man in her family, such as a husband or brother, because he had had an extramarital relationship  which would also harm the family's honor  she would not be protected by quit or extenuating circumstances. 

The current Palestinian Penal Code, which is still in draft form, treats honor killing differently. This law would give both women and men equal coverage under "extenuating circumstances" when they are surprised to find their spouse in an adulterous relationship. However, Article 235 of this law states that women can only benefit from extenuating circumstances if they catch their husband committing adultery in their house and in their marital bed. However, the husband benefits from extenuating circumstances whenever he discovers his wife's affair.

In May 2011, Aya Barde'a's dead body was found in Hebron City in the West Bank. She was a 21-year-old university student when her uncle killed her and threw her into a well  where she remained for a year until her body was discovered. Her uncle killed her because a young man kept asking Aya's family to allow him to marry her. His persistence led the uncle to believe that there was a sexual relationship and, for this reason, the uncle killed his niece without any evidence that she did anything wrong. The case sparked a wave of anger in Palestine, especially in the feminist movement. Honor killings became a public opinion issue and, on May 15, 2011, the President of the Palestinian National Authority, Mahmoud Abbas, issued a presidential decree to annul Article 340 of the Jordanian Penal Code in the West Bank so that honor killers would not benefit from quit or extenuating circumstances. Despite the illegality of the manner in which Abbas attempted to amend the law, as such amendments require a two-thirds approval vote from the legislative council, it was nevertheless considered to be a positive step toward changing unjust laws against women. 

Honor killing is not just a Palestinian matter but rather a human rights matter. Killing women because of sexual behavior is a violation of women's right to life, which is protected by the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. Article 3 of the Declaration states: "Everyone has the right to life, liberty and security of person." In addition, the Penal Code that applies in the Palestinian territories violates the principle of equality because it gives only men rights under quit circumstances, which contradicts Article 2 of the Declaration: "Everyone is entitled to all the rights and freedoms set forth in this Declaration, without distinction of any kind, such as race, color, sex, language, religion, political or other opinion."


 The above is only a small portion of the article.   This is what you should get upset about instead of taking out your Hostility on me.

  Maybe you should get in touch with them and ask if it's in the Quran. ( What a stupid comment)


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## Coyote (Apr 29, 2013)

proudveteran06 said:


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That's two questions.

Question 1:  it's not done _in the name of_ any religion - it's done in the misguided cultural belief that a woman and her chastity are the property of her huband or male relatives

Question 2:  It is.

Suggestion:  Before you make an assumption, you had better verify that the answer you assume to be correct, is.

Now, can you answer my question?


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## Coyote (Apr 29, 2013)

proudveteran06 said:


> Coyote said:
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> ...



I've condemned it.  I just don't see the need to keep condemning it everytime you drag it up in an attempt to derail a topic.



> While we are at it, show me proof that I " support violence against women'.



http://www.usmessageboard.com/7162599-post4.html


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## Coyote (Apr 29, 2013)

proudveteran06 said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > proudveteran06 said:
> ...



You said you "don't give a shit".



> unlike Sheri who stated that Ms. Fogel did. Wouldn't expect you to understand that though. So exactly what makes me " racist?"   Because I refuse to get upset about what Arab Men do to Arab Women ?



When you are outraged when the Fogel's were murdered but "don't give a shit" when an Arab is murdered...that seems kind of "racist".

Now, my turn:  what exactly makes me "racist"?



> Maybe you would be better off using your hostility towards those " Christians" who do not condemn the Muslim enslaving and killing of Christians.  Naaaaa.... That would be asking to much.



Oh, I dunno....I'm still wasting time trying to find anywhere where you've exhibited a shred of empathy towards Muslims being killed and "enslaved" (to use your terms) in Sri Lanka and Burma.  Naaaa....would never happen would it? 



> Besides, I can't ask you to think beyond the thread.



Translation: _ I really really really want to derail this thread onto other topics so I can keep bashing ebil muslims_



> The above is only a small portion of the article.   This is what you should get upset about instead of taking out your Hostility on me.



Sweetheart, when you start accusing others of stances, thoughts, or opinions they may not have - do not be surprised to see it flung back at you or be asked to prove it.  That's not hostility. 

I do not "support" honor killings but unlike you - I *do not pretend* it's part of Islam or limited only to Muslims and I condemn it wherever it occurs.  It's an archaic remnant of a once powerful patriarchal mentality that regarded women as men's property and it's still unfortunately very strong in many parts of the world.



> Maybe you should get in touch with them and ask if it's in the Quran. ( What a stupid comment)



Nice dodge but it won't work.  Since it's such a "stupid" comment, it should be easy for you to whip out the Quran (you know so much about Islam after all) and show me where it says honor killing is okee dokee.

YOU made the claim that it's part of the religion.  So support it or admit maybe you might be wrong


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## ForeverYoung436 (Apr 29, 2013)

Coyote said:


> proudveteran06 said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...



I've never heard of honor killings outside of Muslim societies, from all the news reports I've ever watched on that subject.  You mentioned a rape in India, which is not the same as an honor killing.  Honor killings are done because of rape--to the victim instead of the attacker.  Can you please expound on this case in India?


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## Coyote (Apr 29, 2013)

ForeverYoung436 said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > proudveteran06 said:
> ...



A simple search on honor killings (Wikipedia for example) will show it does not occur in just Muslim societies or in all Muslim socieities (for example it's relatively rare in muslim-dominant Indonesia).  As a matter of fact - it was still legal to kill a woman over "honor" (it wasn't considered murder) in Brazil until the 1990's I believe.

News reports are seldom interested in accuracy.



> You mentioned a rape in India, which is not the same as an honor killing.  Honor killings are done because of rape--to the victim instead of the attacker.  Can you please expound on this case in India?



I'm not sure what you are asking me to expound on.  Honor killings occur in India - in fact, it's fairly common there particularly in relation to inter-caste marriages or inconvenient brides.  When I mentioned rape - I was referring to the horrific incident recently where 3 men in a bus brutally raped a young woman, who subsequently died and set afire great public anger and outcry for change.  Rape is endemic among women in certain areas of India and seldom sucessfully prosecuted.  I brought it up in relation to the larger problem of violence against women in these cultures.


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## irosie91 (Apr 29, 2013)

for the record-----the  " LEGAL"  killing in brazil was not any woman in 
the family guilty of a sexual indiscretion------it was   A WIFE 
CAUGHT  IN FLAGRANTE DELICTO      ---even in civilized lands---
that is not   "murder"    it is manslaughter

honor killing -----like female circumcision does remain a 
MUSLIM thing----citing exceptions does not change that fact.
I am left handed----which does not change the fact that most 
normal people are right handed   (obama is left handed too) 

In order to function politely in  mid eastern and indian society----
I must avoid handling food with my left hand -----not easy for me--
but I manage     every time I visit     calcutta  or kolkota or 
mumbai or bombay or mecca


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## proudveteran06 (Apr 29, 2013)

Coyote said:


> ForeverYoung436 said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...




 I don't give a SHIT.  That is not the same as saying she DESERVED IT. The fact that you don't know the difference is not my problem.  

 Can't understand why I don't have empathy towards Muslims who are being attacked by their own people?   lol

   When Muslims begin to care and have empathy towards Christians who are being enslaved and killed or when the Pro Palestinian ( Christian ) Posters do then you can ask me to " care".

      What I did say about the Rape in India was that is was NOT done in the name of " religion".  Is that difficult for you to understand?  

        Like it or not, it basically occurs in the Muslim World.  In the US there have been " Honor Killings" ;  Guess what religion?  Hint....  Not the Jews, Christians, Hindus, Chinese, Japenese, etc. etc. 


http://http://www.cnn.com/2013/04/04/world/asia/afghanistan-honor-killing-survivor


Exclusive: How my brother tried to kill me in 'honor attack' - CNN.com








SHARE THIS










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Exclusive: How my brother tried to kill me in 'honor attack'


By Anna Coren, CNN

updated 1:41 PM EDT, Thu April 4, 2013




Watch this video


'My brother tried to kill me'



STORY HIGHLIGHTS
 Gul Meena, 17, left her abusive husband in Pakistan for another man
She knew she was committing the ultimate crime according to Islamic customs
Meena's brother hacked her friend to death with an ax, before turning on her
Gul Meena is one of thousands of women living in shelters across Afghanistan

Kabul, Afghanistan (CNN) -- It's cold and raining in Kabul and the pothole-filled dirt roads have turned into a sea of mud. We drive up to the gateway of a high-walled compound. A soldier brandishing an AK-47 stands guard outside the building. We've come to a women's shelter to meet Gul Meena -- a 17-year-old girl from Pakistan who shouldn't be alive.

My crew and I are ushered into a room and sitting on a wooden chair slouched over is small, fragile Gul Meena. Her sullen eyes turn from the raindrops streaming down the window outside and towards us as we enter the room.

Gul's bright coloured headscarf is embroidered with blue, red and green flowers and covers most of her face. She nervously plays with it and gives us a glimpse of a frightened smile from underneath the fabric. Her guardian Anisa, from the shelter run by Women for Afghan Women, touches her head and gently moves the headscarf back. That's when we see the scars etched deeply into her face.

This Pakistani girl's life of misery and suffering began at the tender age of 12, when instead of going to school she was married to a man old enough to be her grandfather. She says: "My family married me off when I was 12 years old. My husband was 60. Every day he would beat me. I would cry and beg him stop. But he just kept on beating me."






Watch this video

Educating girls in Afghanistan   





Watch this video

Inside a firefight with the Taliban    





Watch this video

Packing up, shippping out of Afghanistan 
When Gul told her family what was happening, they responded in a way that shocked her. "My family would hit me when I complained. They told me you belong in your husband's house -- that is your life."

After five years of abuse, Gul Meena met a young Afghan man and finally gathered the courage to leave her husband in Pakistan. In November 2012 she packed up some belongings and they made their way across the border into Afghanistan to the city of Jalalabad.

READ MORE: Afghanistan's future: 5 burning questions

Gul knew she was committing the ultimate crime according to strict Islamic customs -- running away from her husband with another man -- but she also knew she didn't want to continue living the life she had since her marriage.

"I'd tried to kill myself with poison several times but it didn't work. I hated my life and I had to escape. When I ran away I knew it would be dangerous. I knew my husband and family would be looking for me but I never thought this would happen. I thought my future would be bright," she says.

Days later her older brother tracked them down. Armed with an ax, he hacked to death Gul Meena's friend, and then struck his own sister 15 times -- cutting open her face, head and parts of her body.

Gul Meena shows me these scars -- taking off her headscarf, her finger gently running up and down the raised, freshly healed skin. She touches her head where the blade hit her and then shows me the deep cuts that were made to the back of her neck and her arms. It's clear to me she desperately tried to fight off her brother before she passed out.

Assuming she was dead, her brother escaped back to Pakistan. Authorities are yet to catch him, but his family denies that he tried to kill Gul.






Watch this video

Dangerous challenge for Afghan police   





Watch this video

A woman like Malala    





Watch this video

Afghanistan's war history 
Hearing the commotion, a passer-by discovered Gul Meena lying in a pool of blood in her bed, and rushed her to the Emergency Department of Nangarhar Regional Medical Centre.

With part of her brain hanging out of her skull, neurosurgeon Zamiruddin Khalid held out little hope that the girl on his operating table would survive.

READ MORE: Why U.S. can't deliver women's rights to Afghanistan

"We took her to the operating theatre and she'd already lost a lot of blood. Her injuries were horrific and her brain had been affected -- we didn't think she would survive", says Khalid as he shows us photos of Gul's injuries before he sewed up the wounds. In one photo her face looks like a piece of meat that has been hacked apart.

Khalid said: "We are very thankful to almighty God that Gul Meena is alive -- it really is a miracle."

But Gul's troubles were far from over. While she'd received life-saving treatment from the doctors and staff at the hospital, she had no one to care for her on the outside. Gul had been disowned by her family and despite the government and authorities knowing that she was alive and receiving care at the hospital, they wanted nothing to do with her due to the stigma and circumstances surrounding her attack.

For two months Gul stayed in the hospital thanks to the generosity of doctors who donated the money to pay for her medicine. Finally the American-Afghan organization Women for Afghan Women was informed of Gul's situation and took her in, transporting her back to a shelter in Kabul to give her the love and care she so desperately needed.

"When she first came to us she couldn't talk or walk she was barely conscious -- she couldn't eat by herself. She had to wear a diaper. If we hadn't got her when we did, she wouldn't have survived," says Manizha Naderi, the executive director of Women For Afghan Women.

Gul Meena is one of thousands of women living in shelters across Afghanistan -- many of them victims of attempted honor killings. Tragically this practice still exists in a number of cultures, including certain tribes in Afghanistan and Pakistan.

U.N. Secretary General Ban Ki Moon recently expressed concern over the 20% increase in civilian casualties among women and girls in Afghanistan in 2012. Moon said: "I'm deeply disturbed that despite some improvements in prosecuting cases of violence, there is still a pervasive climate of impunity in Afghanistan for abuses of women and girls."


  Just part of the article.  You can deny this all you want . Doesn't change the facts.


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## sealadaigh (Apr 29, 2013)

ForeverYoung436 said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > proudveteran06 said:
> ...



get real. men beat up and kill women all the time around the world and in america...and occasionally women beat up or kill men as well. none of it is excusable and just because you can wrap one culture up and put a neat little bow  on the package and name it doesn't make it more wrong.

you've never heard of honor killings? how often do you hear of a man killing his wife or girlfriend because they are engaged in an affair. guess what? that is an honour killing.

where the hell do you live anyway. i would be more concerned about these types of abuses that occur in my own society. it is like the catholic church abuse scandal. that was bad, sure, but some jews were so interested in tearing down the catholic church that their own little childers were being abused by trusted caregivers and they were excusing it.


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## proudveteran06 (Apr 29, 2013)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  PALESTINIANS ARE LAW ABIDING PEOPLE AFTER ALL !



Abbas aide: No plans to outlaw 'honor killing'


Published Monday 24/12/2012 (updated) 29/01/2013 16:02






Police arrest a man accused of killing his niece, Aya Baradiya, in Hebron,
May 12, 2011. (MaanImages/Mohammad Owawy)

By Soraya Al-Ghussein and Hannah Patchett

RAMALLAH (Ma'an) -- President Mahmoud Abbas has no plans to amend laws that reduce sentences for suspects who claim an "honor" defense for murdering women, his legal adviser says.

"Why change it? This would cause serious problems," Hassan al-Ouri told Ma'an, adding that such a reform would "not benefit women."

In May 2011, the president pledged to amend the law to guarantee maximum penalties for "honor killing" in response to protests over the killing of university student Aya Baradiya in Hebron.

The decision was announced in a phone call to a primetime show on state TV, drawing tears among crowds of mourners shown in a live link-up from the Ramallah studio to Baradiya&#8217;s hometown.

Abbas suspended Article 340, which offers a pardon for murder if the perpetrator committed the crime on finding his wife in bed with another man.

The reform was cosmetic: Article 340 had never been used in Palestinian courts since it was legislated in 1960.

"So why did we change the law? To garner public opinion," al-Ouri said in an interview in the presidential compound in Ramallah.

"I, personally, was against the amendment because the crimes that happen in the street have no relevance to Article 340," the legal adviser added.

Al-Ouri says the president will not change the go-to clauses for lawyers seeking leniency for clients who claim they committed murder to defend family "honor."

Articles 97 to 100 of the Jordanian Penal Code, in force in the West Bank, still offer reduced sentences for any act of battery or murder committed in a "state of rage."

"The (law) only addresses 1 percent of the problem. What we need is a new culture," al-Ouri said.

Other officials insist the penal code is the problem.

The law "privileges the killer," Interior Ministry official Haitham Arrar told Ma'an.

"It encourages some people to commit crimes against women, which will go (as far as) killing them," said Arrar, who heads the ministry's democracy and human rights unit.

 Abbas fears 'conservative forces' 

The Palestinian Legislative Council has not met since 2007, when Hamas and Fatah split, but women's rights expert Soraida Hussein dismisses arguments that reforms must wait until parliament reconvenes. 

"For us, for women, all this is irrelevant," said Hussein, general director of the Women's Technical Affairs Committee, an umbrella group of women&#8217;s organizations. "Until now, our lives -- in law and in practice -- are seen as less than men's."

The president should issue a decree that "anybody killing anyone else will be sentenced to the highest sentence possible, whether it is a woman or a boy," says Hussein.

"The minute the law is changed and applied, the minute people will think twice," she says. "It's simple and it's not done."

Hussein suggests Abbas is hesitant to pass legal reforms because "he is not ready yet to confront conservative forces."

In 2009, Abbas ratified the UN Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Discrimination Against Women, but al-Ouri, the legal adviser, says it will only be implemented "so long as it doesn&#8217;t contravene Islamic code."

"Look, we are for total equality but if there is a basic tenet of Islamic code that we would be forced to change under CEDAW, then people would revolt and brand us as non-believers," al-Ouri said.

'Dressing up honor'

Lax laws encourage murder suspects to claim "honor" in their defense, officials and women&#8217;s rights activists say.

"Because the penalty is one or two months, they consider killing her and dress it up as honor," Minister of Women's Affairs Rahiba Diab told Ma'an.

Khawla al-Azraq, who runs a women&#8217;s counseling center in Bethlehem, notes that femicide is a global issue but "now in Palestine, they call this honor killing."

"Sometimes these girls are abused by someone in the family and they need to cover this (up) and they kill her; sometimes because they need her money," she says. "These are the real reasons for killing."

"In Palestine, this is the gap, that until now we don&#8217;t have our own legislation that really can protect women."

The Independent Commission of Human Rights says 13 women have been killed this year, but the real figure is likely to be higher.

"There has been historically a problem of documentation," says Hussein, the women's rights expert. The cause of suspicious deaths of women was often recorded as "fate," which could refer to forced "suicides" or being pushed from a building, she explained.

Despite repeated requests since September, the Ministry of Interior did not provide Ma'an with the official number of women whose deaths were recorded as "fate" in 2012.

Abbas aide: No plans to outlaw 'honor killing' | Maan News Agency

http://http://www.maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=550792


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## sealadaigh (Apr 29, 2013)

irosie91 said:


> for the record---the  rights of the  PATERFAMILIAS   in roman
> law to execute anyone in his family or his slaves ----was ALSO
> an aspect of the religion of the romans
> 
> ...



all this familial killing...sort began when cain slew abel, didn't it?


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## Coyote (Apr 29, 2013)

proudveteran06 said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > ForeverYoung436 said:
> ...



I never said it was the same.

I merely pointed out that you "give a shit" when it comes to the Fogel family and you "don't give a shit" when it comes to an Arab family.



> Can't understand why I don't have empathy towards Muslims who are being attacked by their own people?   lol



Funny that.

I don't care who attacks who.  I still give a shit.  It's human lives ya know...not just _some _human lives.



> When Muslims begin to care and have empathy towards Christians who are being enslaved and killed or when the Pro Palestinian ( Christian ) Posters do then you can ask me to " care".



Well...you see, I don't qualify my empathy to just some groups of people and make it conditional upon arbritrary criteria that disregards their actions as individuals.  The funny thing is, you sound kind of like Sherri there. Imagine that 



> What I did say about the Rape in India was that is was NOT done in the name of " religion".  Is that difficult for you to understand?



Neither is honor killing - what's so hard to understand about that?



> Like it or not, it basically occurs in the Muslim World.  In the US there have been " Honor Killings" ;  Guess what religion?  Hint....  Not the Jews, Christians, Hindus, Chinese, Japenese, etc. etc.



In the US, "honor killing" is rare as to be a statistical anomoly that barely rates a mention (school shootings are far more common).  Around the world however - guess what religions commit honor killings?

I'll make it easy for you:  c) All of the above.

How many of them do it in the "name of religion"?  d) none of the above

It's done for a variety of reasons including:
a) girl is viewed as promiscuous
b) girl got raped (must have been her fault after all)
c) girl married or got involved with someone of the wrong class
d) girl got married or involved in someone of the wrong religion



> Just part of the article.  You can deny this all you want . Doesn't change the facts.



I'm not the one denying facts.


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## irosie91 (Apr 29, 2013)

reabhloideach said:


> irosie91 said:
> 
> 
> > for the record---the  rights of the  PATERFAMILIAS   in roman
> ...




It was a precedent------did you actually read the bible or just the 
classic comic version of the story.     (borrowed from sherri)

I find the story very interesting for the repeated use of a 
particular word----the word is----I believe the theme of the 
entire   story -------want to know the word?      too bad!!!
  I am going to tell you anyway     the word is   "TO CHOOSE"

the theme of the story has more to do with the concept of 
FREE CHOICE ----than sibling rivalry---cain CHOSE to kill--
and then saw his own life as worthless too. 

the last words of one of the parts is   "CHOOSE  (imperative) 
  LIFE"


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## Coyote (Apr 29, 2013)

irosie91 said:


> for the record-----the  " LEGAL"  killing in brazil was not any woman in
> the family guilty of a sexual indiscretion------it was   A WIFE
> CAUGHT  IN FLAGRANTE DELICTO      ---even in civilized lands---
> that is not   "murder"    it is manslaughter
> ...



Honor killing is common amongst Hindu India.

That hardly makes it a "muslim" thing.


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## ForeverYoung436 (Apr 29, 2013)

reabhloideach said:


> ForeverYoung436 said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...



Would you try to control yourself a little?  I was talking of the specific cases in Muslim societies of a girl getting raped, and then the girl's own brother killing her or throwing acid on her because she had somehow brought "disgrace" on her family by getting herself raped.  This is exclusive to Muslim societies, from reports that I have seen on the news.  In the Hebrew Bible, an honor killing would be killing the rapist.  When Dinah was raped, her brothers killed the rapist and his father, Absalom killed his sister's rapist (a half-brother), and a gang-rape sparked a civil war in the Book of Judges.  When a Pakistani couple threw acid on their own daughter for just looking at a man and killed her, technically that wasn't an honor killing--it's only when a girl's own family kills her for being raped.  In the cases that you cited of a husband killing an unfaithful wife, it's not the wife's own blood relatives doing the killing.  THAT is called an "honor killing" in Muslim countries--the family wiping away the shame that their daughter or sister brought upon them.  That's also different from child molestation, and I like to deal with issues individually.
From the way you act, it's no wonder people think you're an alcoholic.


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## sealadaigh (Apr 29, 2013)

ForeverYoung436 said:


> reabhloideach said:
> 
> 
> > ForeverYoung436 said:
> ...



fook off, buddy. people accuse me of being an alcoholic for one reason and one reason only. the only answer they have to my arguments are racial stereotypes.

women are ill treated in all third world countries because third world countries are poverty stricken and maybe instead of first world countries bleeding the less fortunate and forgiving them their debt, that would have a chance to progress and adopt standards more like those  of your usurious money lender ilk...if you get my friggin' drift.

stereotypes are a two way street, you pompous, arrogant ass.

yeah, let's blame it all on the muslims...and god forbid any woman on the back of the haredic bus opens her yap or she'll be gettin' a good punch in the gob so she knows her place.

you do not care one single little damn about muslim women. all you give a flying frog about is demonising muslim society so you have someone to lord it over and make your mown indiscretions less offensive.


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## ForeverYoung436 (Apr 29, 2013)

reabhloideach said:


> ForeverYoung436 said:
> 
> 
> > reabhloideach said:
> ...



I think there's a difference between separate seating or getting acid thrown on you or killed.


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## Hossfly (Apr 29, 2013)

ForeverYoung436 said:


> reabhloideach said:
> 
> 
> > ForeverYoung436 said:
> ...


Of course there is a difference, but Seal wouldn't admit to that.  I wouldn't consider America a third-world country, but honor killings (as well as female circumcisions) are even done here.  For example:  Texas 'honor killing' suspect Yaser Said could be hiding in plain sight as NYC cabbie, private investigator says | Fox News

Meanwhile, while Seal had the chance to discuss the terrible behavior toward women in the Middle East (and elsewhere) on a different forum, he never ever brought it up.  However, if a Jew or someone who is pro Israel brings it up, he is right there on step.  Naturally, the news about his friends Kidnapping and forcing Christian girls to convert doesn't seem to bother him at all.
BosNewsLife ? Christian News Agency » Blog Archive » Pakistan Christian Family Hiding Amid Death Threats


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## Coyote (Apr 29, 2013)

ForeverYoung436 said:


> reabhloideach said:
> 
> 
> > ForeverYoung436 said:
> ...




Well....no.

Disfigured victim's plea to die exposes India's acid violence | Reuters
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cambodian_Acid_Survivors_Charity
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cambodian_Acid_Survivors_Charity
etc. etc.



> *In the Hebrew Bible, an honor killing would be killing the rapist.*  When Dinah was raped, her brothers killed the rapist and his father, Absalom killed his sister's rapist (a half-brother), and a gang-rape sparked a civil war in the Book of Judges.



Lev 21:9  And the daughter of any priest, if she profane herself by playing the whore, she profaneth her father: she shall be burnt with fire. 

Sounds like honor killing to me.

By the way - where in the Quran is there any sanctioning of honor killing?



> When a Pakistani couple threw acid on their own daughter for just looking at a man and killed her, technically that wasn't an honor killing--*it's only when a girl's own family kills her for being raped. *



Where did you get that definition?

Honor Killing

_An honor killing, or honour killing[1] is the homicide of a member of a family or social group by other members, *due to the belief of the perpetrators that the victim has brought dishonor upon the family or community*.

*The perceived dishonor is normally the result of one of the following behaviors, or the suspicion of such behaviors: dressing in a manner unacceptable to the family or community, wanting to terminate or prevent an arranged marriage or desiring to marry by own choice, especially if to a member of a social group deemed inappropriate, engaging in heterosexual acts outside marriage and engaging in homosexual acts.* Honor killings have been labeled as a form of gender apartheid.[2]​_


> In the cases that you cited of a husband killing an unfaithful wife, it's not the wife's own blood relatives doing the killing.  THAT is called an "honor killing" in Muslim countries--the family wiping away the shame that their daughter or sister brought upon them.  That's also different from child molestation, and I like to deal with issues individually.
> From the way you act, it's no wonder people think you're an alcoholic.



Honor killings do not have to be perpetrated by blood relatives as per the definition.


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## Coyote (Apr 29, 2013)

Hossfly said:


> ForeverYoung436 said:
> 
> 
> > reabhloideach said:
> ...



Funny thing is, Hoss...you've had a chance to discuss terrible behavior toward women amongst non-Muslims and you seem to reflexively derail the conversation onto...surprise - Muslims as if only Muslims can be culpable of these horrible things.

I guess it doesn't matter much if it's not a Muslim.


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## sealadaigh (Apr 29, 2013)

Hossfly said:


> ForeverYoung436 said:
> 
> 
> > reabhloideach said:
> ...



if you want to turn this into a religious thing, here is your judeo-christian ethic at work...

Domestic Violence: Fast Facts on Domestic Violence

and don't you friggin dare try to tell what what i do or do not care about. you are a flamin', outrageous, bloody, bible thumping bigot whose sole function has come to be defending israeli society by any means necessary and your choice of mweapons is demonising muslims.

i tell you what. if i were a young muslim growing up in this land of the free and am exposed to all this prejudicial hatred directed at me night and day, i'd be damned tempted to strap on a suicide belt myself.

pretty soon, more roosters are going to come home to roost, and you're the one spreading out the feed for them.

you want me to scour the presses for nasty ass  jews, i can do that, buddy.

get this, chump. poor people beat their wives and do more blue collar crime than rich people. ya ever think you will make the connection with economics and not religion.


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## toastman (Apr 29, 2013)

reabhloideach said:


> Hossfly said:
> 
> 
> > ForeverYoung436 said:
> ...



You're talking as if you don't already do that


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## Hossfly (Apr 29, 2013)

Coyote said:


> Hossfly said:
> 
> 
> > ForeverYoung436 said:
> ...


Why, Coyote, we all know that there is violence against women in all societies regardless of race, religion, or ethnicity.  However, it appears that the subject of honor killings mainly by Muslims seem to upset many people, such as yourself.  Just whom do you think are mainly committing these honor killings these days?  Correct me if I am wrong, but wasn't this thread started to report on a killing of an Arab woman and not a discussion of violence against women?  I could have brought up that not only are honor killings committed against Muslim women in the Middle East and the rest of the Muslim world, but I could also have brought up honor killings by Muslims that are happening in Europe too.  Now if you feel that there is another group which commits a huge amount of honor killings in this world, could  you please inform us?

BBC - Ethics - Honour crimes


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## Lipush (Apr 29, 2013)

Guys, you talk 3 pages about honor killing but it's still not clear that this was the reason. Of course it could be, but it's not clear why.

In the previous weird issue in Israel concerning woman being killed in the Arab community, all of us cried honor killing when in fact it ended up being some psycho taxi driver. Nothing is clear until the police say so.

Still hoping the little one will find a loving family and will overcome this.


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## Capstone (Apr 29, 2013)

Lipush said:


> Guys, you talk 3 pages about honor killing but it's still not clear that this was the reason. Of course it could be, but it's not clear why.
> 
> In the previous weird issue in Israel concerning woman being killed in the Arab community, all of us cried honor killing when in fact it ended up being some psycho taxi driver. Nothing is clear until the police say so.
> 
> Still hoping the little one will find a loving family and will overcome this.



As I pointed out way back on page 1:



Capstone said:


> Another story of violence from the very same website.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Not that I'm rooting for a connection here...


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## Lipush (Apr 30, 2013)

No, you talk about Mossad conspiracy.

Sorry, but that stupid and nonsense more than the honor killing theory.


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## Capstone (Apr 30, 2013)

Lipush said:


> No, you talk about Mossad conspiracy.
> 
> Sorry, but that stupid and nonsense more than the honor killing theory.



Says the zealot with no meter for sarcasm.


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## proudveteran06 (Apr 30, 2013)

reabhloideach said:


> ForeverYoung436 said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...



   Priests have been abusing and molesting little boys for years and the Jews are somehow to blame for that also?  Are the Jews responsible for the MILLIONS of dollars the Church has had to pay out?   Blame the Jew;  Your " Church" and Family taught you well.  There are also allegations about the present pope. Are the Jews responsible for that also?  Clean up your own stench instead of blaming others.


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## Lipush (Apr 30, 2013)

Capstone said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> > No, you talk about Mossad conspiracy.
> ...



That didn't sound like sarcasm  at all. Just silly.


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## proudveteran06 (Apr 30, 2013)

reabhloideach said:


> irosie91 said:
> 
> 
> > for the record---the  rights of the  PATERFAMILIAS   in roman
> ...



   Google " Honor Killings" Catholic boy and show up where it's being done by Jews.  After that report to your Pope with the info.


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## Capstone (Apr 30, 2013)

Lipush said:


> That didn't sound like sarcasm  at all. Just silly.



As it would to someone with no meter for sarcasm.


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## proudveteran06 (Apr 30, 2013)

Coyote said:


> proudveteran06 said:
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  Yes you are ( Nothing new)  Throughout the World it primarily happens in Muslim Countries.  In " palestine" they are not interested in making it ILLEGAL !

   There are traditions and parts of religion that are " accepted" although they didn't have to be written anywhere ( Ex. The Old Testament) to make them " legal".   Some examples; The Kosher Food Laws were put into " law" for Health Reasons at the time, Years ago Catholics couldn't eat meat on Friday's ; now they can.  Just a few examples.   

   Same thing with " HONOR KILLINGS" in the Muslim Religion.  Your stupid question; Is it in the Quran?   Who cares??? IT'S ACCEPTED AND THEIR " LAWS" PERMIT IT !   The above examples ( just a few) aren't written in stone anywhere yet they're accepted.  Get it?  Probably not.     Keep defending it claiming their " religion" has nothing to do with it.


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## SherriMunnerlyn (Apr 30, 2013)

proudveteran06 said:


> Coyote said:
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WHAT A BIGOT AND HATER YOU ARE! Honor killings are not a teaching of Islam, get that through your dense and sick and hate infested mind! DO us all and humanity a favor and go get some professional help for your hate of Musims, buddy!


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## sealadaigh (Apr 30, 2013)

proudveteran06 said:


> reabhloideach said:
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where did i say jews were responsible for any of that. get off your pity pot.

all you really doing is proving my point.

learn how to read. while you are all screaming about the some catholic priest porking some high school kid, your own rabbis right here in the united stated got ree rein on abusing your own kids.

we are cleaning up our stuff, and a lot of people are pissed.

here ya go...you clean up your own friggin' stench. just because jews are small potatoes doesn't mean they can abuse and rape children with impunity.

PressTV - Top Israeli rabbi arrested for raping teenage daughters for over a decade

Jewish child molesters that are never on the NEWS - WHY?

Arizona Rabbi Arrested for Allegedly Raping Child Ten Years Ago | Fox News

and if you need more, there are plenty.


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## ForeverYoung436 (Apr 30, 2013)

Hossfly said:


> Coyote said:
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To deny the problems of terror and honor killings in Muslim societies in the name of not being "Islamophobic" will not heal the problems.  Hindus might also do honor killings, but 2 wrongs don't make a right.


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## sealadaigh (Apr 30, 2013)

proudveteran06 said:


> reabhloideach said:
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lessee, the jewboy ain't satisfied with pissing muslims of, now he is going after the catholics. ya know, or a people who are constantly braggin' about how much smarter you are than gentiles, you sure are friggin' stupid. no wonder there are so few of ya, hymie.


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## proudveteran06 (Apr 30, 2013)

proudveteran06 said:


> Coyote said:
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## proudveteran06 (Apr 30, 2013)

ForeverYoung436 said:


> Hossfly said:
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 Coyote is nothing but a Hypocrite.  It occurs mainly in the Muslim World and is ACCEPTED!    In the US there have been " Honor Killings".  Guess which group?   It's NOT the Hindus!


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## proudveteran06 (Apr 30, 2013)

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> proudveteran06 said:
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THE ABOVE COMES FROM THE " CHRISTIAN" JEW HATER WHO WANTS ISRAEL WIPED OFF THE MAP !     LOL!!!

" Honor Killings" ARE the teaching of Islam; maybe you can enlighten us as to why it's done in the name of their " religion".  Since we're on the subject of hate for other religions;  It's time for you to run to your closest shrink and find out why you have such a sick, twisted hatred for Jews. You have nothing but HATE ! It's that " Christian value" we hear so much about.  Get that Professional Help STAT!   ( Ask your Muslim Husband if it's O.K. with him!)    lol


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## proudveteran06 (Apr 30, 2013)

reabhloideach said:


> proudveteran06 said:
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> > reabhloideach said:
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  What's your point?  Still doesn't take away from the Catholic Church and being the good " Catholic" that you are blaming the Jews for it.  You're the one that mentioned the Jews in the first place. 


 Your " Church" *XXXXXXX* taught you well.


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## SherriMunnerlyn (Apr 30, 2013)

If  I thought like other posters, I would read this article and conclude that honor killings were a Jewish practice.

jewish rally calls for honour killings

with 5 comments


Bat Yam rally: Death to Jewish women who date Arabs
 Yoav Zitun, Ynet, Dec 21 2010

Some 200 people held a demonstration in central Bat Yam Monday evening against relationships between local Jewish women and Arab men. One of the protestors called out:


Any Jewish woman who goes with an Arab should be killed; any Jew who sells his home to an Arab should be killed.

During the rally, held under the banner, We Want a Jewish Bat-Yam, demonstrators also insulted the prophet Muhammad and made racist remarks against Arabs and their saints. Police forces maintained order, but did not act when the demonstrators made racist remarks. One of the speakers said:


We are not racist, we are just Jews. The Arabs are coming and taking our daughters. We will not allow it.

Moshe Ben-Zikri of Eilat said the struggle began three years ago in Givat Zeev. He said:


There were 330 Arab families there, and the Jewish women would walk around with them freely. We vowed this would not happen again. Just like we triumphed there, we will triumph in Bat Yam as well. We are not afraid of the police, the media or the Arabs. We only fear God


jewish rally calls for ?honour killings? | Niqnaq


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## SherriMunnerlyn (Apr 30, 2013)

proudveteran06 said:


> SherriMunnerlyn said:
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I am not a Christian Jew hater, you are a liar. And I do not call for Israel to be wiped off the map, you are a liar. And Islam does not teach that honor killings are a part of Islam. Again, you are a liar. Why dont you stop lying?


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## toastman (Apr 30, 2013)

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> proudveteran06 said:
> 
> 
> > SherriMunnerlyn said:
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Nobody said that ALL Muslims practice honor killings. But whenever we hear a story about it, it tends to be a Muslim. 
This one happened close to MONTREAL where I live


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## proudveteran06 (Apr 30, 2013)

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> If  I thought like other posters, I would read this article and conclude that honor killings were a Jewish practice.
> 
> jewish rally calls for honour killings
> 
> ...



  YAWN......Nice try but failed miserably.  Ever hear " Actions speak louder then Words?"   Are " Honor Killings" practiced and encouraged like they are in ISLAM DESPITE YOUR DENIAL?  YOUR HATE FOR JEWS IS AN OBSESSION.  GET HELP ASAP !

       Regarding this poster;



 Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,547 
Thanks: 2,513
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Rep Power: 0 
SherriMunnerlyn has disabled reputation 

Quote: Originally Posted by Lipush http://www.usmessageboard.com/israe...led-in-shomron-terror-attack.html#post7168324 
"No, he is a human being".

So was the person he killed!

And that person left behind a widow and 5 children! so forgive me for not giving a crap about the stabber...
WHAT business did he have being where he was?  

 No remorse, compassion, sorrow for the JEWISH PERSON which is typical of the Pro Palestinian mentality.  Bet that Hypocritical Bigoted Coyote has nothing critical to say about that poster


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## toastman (Apr 30, 2013)

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> If  I thought like other posters, I would read this article and conclude that honor killings were a Jewish practice.
> 
> jewish rally calls for honour killings
> 
> ...



Just when I thought you couldn't sick any lower.......


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## proudveteran06 (Apr 30, 2013)

Any Jewish woman who goes with an Arab should be killed; any Jew who sells his home to an Arab should be killed.


Regarding the above, Have a problem with it?? Under the " Palestinian Code" any Palestinian who sells land to an Israeli will be killed. Do you object to that? Of course not!!!


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## proudveteran06 (Apr 30, 2013)

toastman said:


> SherriMunnerlyn said:
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  You do hate Jews; You are the liar.  You have also called for the elimination of Israel; You are the liar. " HONOR KILLINGS" ARE A PART OF THE MUSLIM RELIGION no matter how much you deny it!  Just look up the STATS!    I NEVER said that ALL Muslims practice " HONOR KILLINGS" you Liar!   

 BTW, if you are so " outraged" because it's not part of the " religion" what then was the reason for your post regarding the Jews and " Honor Killings" which do NOT happen?  It's because you are a " CHRISTIAN", JEW HATING, MUSLIM LOVING HYPOCRITE !!!


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## SherriMunnerlyn (Apr 30, 2013)

Devarim 22:21

Orthodox Jewish Bible (OJB)21*Then they shall bring out the na&#8217;arah to the door of her bais avi, and the anashim of her town shall stone her with avanim that she die; because she hath committed an outrage in Yisroel, to play the whore in her bais avi; so shalt thou put away the rah from among you.<<<==>>>


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## SherriMunnerlyn (Apr 30, 2013)

My goodness, it looks like honor killings are a teaching of Judaism. And I edit this post, to clarify that I do not think that is true, but certainly anyone could read that verse and have a basis to make such a claim.


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## toastman (Apr 30, 2013)

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> My goodness, it looks like honor killings are a teaching of Judaism.



Well then please pull up an article where a Jew was killed by his family for Honor !


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## SherriMunnerlyn (Apr 30, 2013)

proudveteran06 said:


> toastman said:
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NO, I do not hate Jews. THERE are many Jews I respect and admire, like Richard Falk snd many persons on Mondoweiss.. WHAT I hate is the Occupation Israel imposes on Palestinians and the Injustices of it. NOONE WHO CARES about human rights of all people can support the Occupation and all of its human rights abuses. I do not support  Nations committing such abuses against Humanity, as Israel does.. People choose to carry out honor killings and it is largely cultural, not a religious practice.


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## SherriMunnerlyn (Apr 30, 2013)

Lev 21:9 *And the daughter of any priest, if*she profane herself by playing the whore, she profaneth her father: she shall be burnt with fire;  And he that curseth his father, or his mother, shall surely be put to death. (Exodus 21:17)&#8221;; &#8220;For every one that curseth his father or his mother shall be surely put to death: he hath cursed his father or his mother; his blood shall be upon him. (Leviticus 20:9)&#8221;*THree  examples  of honor killings in The Torah.


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## toastman (Apr 30, 2013)

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> Many Christians are often fond ofLev 21:9 *And the daughter of any priest, if*she profane herself by playing the whore, she profaneth her father: she shall be burnt with fire;  And he that curseth his father, or his mother, shall surely be put to death. (Exodus 21:17); For every one that curseth his father or his mother shall be surely put to death: he hath cursed his father or his mother; his blood shall be upon him. (Leviticus 20:9)*THree  examples  of honor killings in The Torah.



Why did you ignore my question above ?


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## Coyote (Apr 30, 2013)

proudveteran06 said:


> Yes you are ( Nothing new)  Throughout the World it primarily happens in Muslim Countries.  In " palestine" they are not interested in making it ILLEGAL !



I've laid out the facts PV and you have yet to address a single one directly or answer a question directly.

Honor killing is most common in the Middle East culture and in India, particularly amongst the caste conscious Hindu.  The history of it is a cultural history that predates religion.

*I have asked, repeatedly, where in the Quran, there is anything permitting honor killing and you repeatedly dodge it*.  If you want to make the claim that it is an issue of religion then you damn well better find some religious text to back it up as part of that religion.

In addition you fail to explain why honor killing is also common among non-Muslim populations such as Hindus, or why in the Middle East it is practiced by non-Muslim natives such as Christians and Druze as well.



> There are traditions and parts of religion that are " accepted" although they didn't have to be written anywhere ( Ex. The Old Testament) to make them " legal".   Some examples; The Kosher Food Laws were put into " law" for Health Reasons at the time, Years ago Catholics couldn't eat meat on Friday's ; now they can.  Just a few examples.



I provided a number of links where Islamic scholars repudiated honor killings as non-Islamic.  I can find nothing in the religious texts that support the concept of honor killing - in fact, shedding innocent muslim blood seems to be frowned upon.

Your examples of the Kosher food laws still have their origins in the OT - not as detailed, but clearly there.

You are making a claim that the religion supports honor killing but you can't find any thing to back it up except to say it's more prevalent in the Islamic world.



> Same thing with " HONOR KILLINGS" in the Muslim Religion.  Your stupid question; Is it in the Quran?   Who cares??? IT'S ACCEPTED AND THEIR " LAWS" PERMIT IT !



It's not a stupid question.  You made the claim.  Islamic law is Sharia law - where is honor killing in Sharia?  Pedophilia seems to be rampant among Christian clergy, therefore Christianity supports pedophilia - in essence that is the kind of argument you are making with Islam and honor killing.

The real issue is not Islam - it's women's rights in societies that regard women as property and that attitude is prevalent amongst all the religions in those regions as is a societal "acceptance" of violence towards women.  I keep pointing out India because it's an example of a country forced to finally confront this problem following a particularly horrific rape of a Hindu woman in a dominantly Hindu society.  When people try to make it a "religious" issue (and fail to find any widespread religious text or law backing it up) then they are showing themselves to be people who don't really care about addressing the real problems - violence towards women - but only care about demonizing Islam.



> The above examples ( just a few) aren't written in stone anywhere yet they're accepted.  Get it?  Probably not.     Keep defending it claiming their " religion" has nothing to do with it.



Just show me where in the religion there is support for honor killings.  GET IT?

Perhaps it's time for another question you probably won't answer.  If honor killing is supported by the religion,* why is it so rare in Indonesia, 88% Muslim, with the largest Muslim population in the world?*


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## SherriMunnerlyn (Apr 30, 2013)

toastman said:


> SherriMunnerlyn said:
> 
> 
> > If  I thought like other posters, I would read this article and conclude that honor killings were a Jewish practice.
> ...



THE ones sinking low are the Jews who were calling for honour killings.


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## toastman (Apr 30, 2013)

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> toastman said:
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> 
> > SherriMunnerlyn said:
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What about the MANY Muslims who have partaken in Honor killings ?????


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## SherriMunnerlyn (Apr 30, 2013)

proudveteran06 said:


> SherriMunnerlyn said:
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> 
> > If  I thought like other posters, I would read this article and conclude that honor killings were a Jewish practice.
> ...



I AM NOT SEEING YOU EXPRESS COMPASSION FOR THE PALESTINIAN KILLED TODAY BY YOUR KLAN! ARE you going to express compassion for this man killed today? HE had a family too. BY the way, I have already read about half a dozen different stories about who he was, all different. http://www.maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=590803


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## toastman (Apr 30, 2013)

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> proudveteran06 said:
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Where's your compassion for the Israeli killed ?????


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## proudveteran06 (Apr 30, 2013)

Coyote said:


> proudveteran06 said:
> 
> 
> > Yes you are ( Nothing new)  Throughout the World it primarily happens in Muslim Countries.  In " palestine" they are not interested in making it ILLEGAL !
> ...




 Regarding your " legal" question I have already answered it.  The Kosher Laws aren't written anywhere in the Old Testament yet it's part of the Religion.  On Friday's Catholocs were forbidden to eat Meat.  It obviously wasn't written anywhere but still a part of their religion.  The examples go on and on.

" Honor Killing" is not prevelant among Hindus or any other group EXCEPT Muslims.  Care to explain that?   There have been " Honor Killings" in THIS COUNTRY!  Guess who????   Psssss..  ( hint   it's not the Hindus)

  Maybe now you can tell us why in these Countries there are " Laws" that SUPPORT IT!!

      In the Muslim World there is a difference between what happened to that woman in India and an " Honor Killing" whether you want to accept it or not !!!




Quote: Originally Posted by Lipush http://www.usmessageboard.com/israe...led-in-shomron-terror-attack.html#post7168324 
"No, he is a human being".

So was the person he killed!

And that person left behind a widow and 5 children! so forgive me for not giving a crap about the stabber...
WHAT business did he have being where he was?  


    BTW, where is your condemnation of this poster not having any empathy for the stabbing victim?  Just one more example of your hypocrisy


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## SherriMunnerlyn (Apr 30, 2013)

toastman said:


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WHAT about the Brazilians who carried out honor killings?


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## toastman (Apr 30, 2013)

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> toastman said:
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Why don't you back up your claim about how honor killing is a common Jewish Practice ???

Where are the articles to back that up ?


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## SherriMunnerlyn (Apr 30, 2013)

toastman said:


> SherriMunnerlyn said:
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WHERES YOUR COMPASSION FOR THE PALESTINIAN KILLED?  Why is it only Jews who die are entitled to compassion? I reject this idea the world exists only for Jews and only Jews matter. I do not buy into that thinking. AND I do not have to express compassion for every Jew who dies on this discussion board.  I did not know the man or his family. I DO NOT SUPPORT KILLING, NOT HIS KILLING OR THE KILLING OF THE PALESTINIAN.


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## SherriMunnerlyn (Apr 30, 2013)

toastman said:


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I made no such claim. LEARN TO READ.


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## SherriMunnerlyn (Apr 30, 2013)

proudveteran06 said:


> Coyote said:
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You continue to selectively ask for compassion for those who are dying.


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## toastman (Apr 30, 2013)

SherriMunnerlyn said:


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There ya go


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## proudveteran06 (Apr 30, 2013)

'Honor killings' in USA raise concerns 

Updated 11/30/2009 1:42 PM | Comment  | Recommend  E-mail | Print |   Reprints & Permissions | Subscribe to stories like this  








Faleh Almaleki   
Peoria Police Department via AP 









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By Oren Dorell, USA TODAY

Muslim immigrant men have been accused of six "honor killings" in the United States in the past two years, prompting concerns that the Muslim community and police need to do more to stop such crimes.

"There is broad support and acceptance of this idea in Islam, and we're going to see it more and more in the United States," says Robert Spencer, who has trained FBI and military authorities on Islam and founded Jihad Watch, which monitors radical Islam.

Honor killings are generally defined as murders of women by relatives who claim the victim brought shame to the family. Thousands of such killings have occurred in Muslim countries such as Egypt, Jordan, Pakistan and Palestinian territories, according to the World Health Organization.

Some clerics and even lawmakers in these countries have said families have the right to commit honor killings as a way of maintaining values, according to an analysis by Yotam Feldner in the journal Middle East Quarterly.



MORE: Ariz. woman allegedly hit with car by Iraqi father dies

BRITAIN: Father found guilty in honor killing


In the USA, police allege the latest "honor killing" was that of Noor Almaleki, 20, who died Nov. 2 after she and her boyfriend's mother were run over in a Peoria, Ariz., parking lot. Prosecutors charged Almaleki's father, Faleh Almaleki, with murder, saying the Iraqi immigrant was upset that his daughter rejected a husband she married in Iraq and moved in with an American.

'Honor killings' in USA raise concerns - USATODAY.com


Click here: 'Honor killings' in USA raise concerns - USATODAY.com


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## proudveteran06 (Apr 30, 2013)

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> proudveteran06 said:
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        Like you who only have compassion for the Palestinians?  I guess you're right


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## proudveteran06 (Apr 30, 2013)

toastman said:


> SherriMunnerlyn said:
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   THE ones " sinking low" are the Jews who are CALLING for it ; However the Muslims who are DOING IT come from a Very High Religious Standard of Code and Ethics.  Typical of this " Christian"  .


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## proudveteran06 (Apr 30, 2013)

SherriMunnerlyn said:


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  The " Christian" posted a article with the subject matter being about those who want " Honor Killings" trying to be subtle about her real agenda but refuses to talk about the MUSLIMS WHO ARE DOING IT!   Could you imagine if this were a Jewish practice?  Does anyone here think she would ignore it?   " Christian Values"   lol


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## Coyote (Apr 30, 2013)

proudveteran06 said:


> Regarding your " legal" question I have already answered it.  The Kosher Laws aren't written anywhere in the Old Testament yet it's part of the Religion.  On Friday's Catholocs were forbidden to eat Meat.  It obviously wasn't written anywhere but still a part of their religion.  The examples go on and on.



The Kosher laws have their origins in OT material.

_Most of the basic laws of kashrut are derived from the Torah's* Books of Leviticus and Deuteronomy*. Their details and practical application, however, are set down in the oral law (eventually codified in the Mishnah and Talmud) and elaborated on in the later rabbinical literature. While the Torah does not state the rationale for most kashrut laws, many reasons have been suggested, including philosophical, practical and hygienic.​_




> " Honor Killing" is not prevelant among Hindus or any other group EXCEPT Muslims.  Care to explain that?   There have been " Honor Killings" in THIS COUNTRY!  Guess who????   Psssss..  ( hint   it's not the Hindus)



Wow.  Do you even bother to check out links and articles posted or do you just listen to the endless loop in your head?

Here, one more link discussing the problem (you claim isn't) of honor killing in India: Why Honor Killings Happen - India Real Time - WSJ




> Maybe now you can tell us why in these Countries there are " Laws" that SUPPORT IT!!



What laws in what countries?  There are many countries that are yet to have laws defining honor killing as the murder it is but you need to be more specific here if you want me to discuss.



> In the Muslim World there is a difference between what happened to that woman in India and an " Honor Killing" whether you want to accept it or not !!!



Uh, no - there isn't a difference.  The only difference is you refuse to call an honor killing an honor killing



> Quote: Originally Posted by Lipush http://www.usmessageboard.com/israe...led-in-shomron-terror-attack.html#post7168324
> "No, he is a human being".
> 
> So was the person he killed!
> ...



That thread was posted at 3:48am this morning.  I haven't even read it yet and have pretty much stuck to THIS thread so far this morning.  

Your premature and immature attempt to prove hypocrisy is duly noted.

Maybe you can actually answer a question for once instead of flailing away with claims of hypocrisy.  Why is it that honor killings are so rare in Indonesia - the country with the worlds largest Muslim population?


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## Coyote (Apr 30, 2013)

toastman said:


> SherriMunnerlyn said:
> 
> 
> > toastman said:
> ...



Actually, if you go back and read her post she never made that claim.

She posted an article and her comment was:

*If I thought like other posters, I would read this article and conclude that honor killings were a Jewish practice.
*

She did not claim it was common Jewish practice!


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## proudveteran06 (Apr 30, 2013)

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> proudveteran06 said:
> 
> 
> > SherriMunnerlyn said:
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     You missed the point ( as usual). I don't expect You to have compassion for ANY Israeli !     Coyote didn't like when I showed lack of Compassion for that Arab Woman ( I don't give a SHIT) in that " Honor Killing" yet said nothing when you stated Ms. Fogel DESERVED it!   In the Fogel case it was NOT just her; it was the entire family including the beheading of an infant. 

       Just like he hasn't said anything about your lack of remorse about the Israeli who was just killed.  That was my point.  You two are just alike; You are just a lot more obvious then he is.


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## SherriMunnerlyn (Apr 30, 2013)

proudveteran06 said:


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I believe there are Bible stories where Jews carried out honor killings. AND I cited four Jewish Scriptures calling for honor killings In certain situations.  AND I cited an article where Jews were calling for honor killings. I do not see the Hypocrisy in pointing these things out. AS for the practice, there is a lot of family violence that occurs in all cultures, and much of it could be called honor killings but it is not always labelled as such.


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## SherriMunnerlyn (Apr 30, 2013)

proudveteran06 said:


> SherriMunnerlyn said:
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YOU are missing the point that you expect compassion only with respect to Jews who die. AND you use the word remorse as if I am somehow responsible for the mans death and should feel guilt. AND another point, I did not say anyone deserved to die. I am not the One who decides who lives and who dies, God does that.


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## irosie91 (Apr 30, 2013)

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> from whence cometh your   FATALISM    sherri?     That bible you claim you
> study emphasizes   the concept  of man's   FREE WILL-----those baby
> throat slitters you adore---at least according to the theology presented
> in the bible-----were not  PRE-DETERMINED  to slit a baby throat---it is
> THEIR CHOICE  ------oh--I forgot----isa told you differently


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## Coyote (Apr 30, 2013)

proudveteran06 said:


> You missed the point ( as usual). I don't expect You to have compassion for ANY Israeli !     Coyote didn't like when I showed lack of Compassion for that Arab Woman ( I don't give a SHIT) in that " Honor Killing" *yet said nothing when you stated Ms. Fogel DESERVED it!*   In the Fogel case it was NOT just her; it was the entire family including the beheading of an infant.
> 
> Just like he hasn't said anything about your lack of remorse about the Israeli who was just killed.  That was my point.  You two are just alike; You are just a lot more obvious then he is.



I don't respond to every post made but I do clearly recall that I did not say "I don't give a shit" in regards to the Fogels murder.  Nor have I ever condoned such murders.  I have repeatedly and clearly stated I do NOT condone or support attacks on civilians.

Now, here you are trying to justify your "not giving a shit" when it's an Arab woman by flailing away at others and justifying your lack of concern by stating the Fogel murder was more horrendous.  As a matter of fact, it was - however that doesn't mean this murder of an Arab woman is any less a murder.


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## irosie91 (Apr 30, 2013)

Coyote said:


> proudveteran06 said:
> 
> 
> > You missed the point ( as usual). I don't expect You to have compassion for ANY Israeli !     Coyote didn't like when I showed lack of Compassion for that Arab Woman ( I don't give a SHIT) in that " Honor Killing" *yet said nothing when you stated Ms. Fogel DESERVED it!*   In the Fogel case it was NOT just her; it was the entire family including the beheading of an infant.
> ...




I think veteran was responding to callous justifications by isa-respecters on this 
board and in the world to the out and out  murder of women with babes in 
arms.    Keep in mind----al azhar university----by its department of koranic 
studies and koranic law----has LEGALIZED  it  -----it is difficult for people 
who have been determined to be legal targets of murder to worry about 
the SOCIAL  issue ----of honor murder among their oppressors.    I have 
a little glimmer of experience with oppression of women in the  isa-respecting 
culture------preverse as it may seem----I came out of that experience 
with an understanding that IT IS THE WOMEN who perpetuate it.  ---
oppressed isa-respecting women cannot expect help even from their OWN 
MOTHERS -----remember the adage---...the hand that rocks the cradle....
be not surprised regarding the hand that rocked the cradles of  
the   "two boys bostoni"       such hands rock the cradles of honor 
killers,   too.


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## irosie91 (Apr 30, 2013)

BEST IDIOT POST OF THE MILLENIUM---

                   "   ....   one  (unidentified)  'jew'   called out...."


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## proudveteran06 (Apr 30, 2013)

Coyote said:


> proudveteran06 said:
> 
> 
> > You missed the point ( as usual). I don't expect You to have compassion for ANY Israeli !     Coyote didn't like when I showed lack of Compassion for that Arab Woman ( I don't give a SHIT) in that " Honor Killing" *yet said nothing when you stated Ms. Fogel DESERVED it!*   In the Fogel case it was NOT just her; it was the entire family including the beheading of an infant.
> ...



   I never stated you said " I don't give a Shit" regarding the Fogel Family.  Try to read .  A Pro Palestinian says that and there is NO CONDEMNATION.  Nor have I ever said you condone killing civilians. I have said that?  Post, please 


   The slaughter of an entire family including the beheading of an infant was more horrendous!  I do not care about " Honor Killings" nor do I have to justify those feelings.   Saying " I don't give a Shit" is not the same as saying " She deserved it!"  Of course I wouldn't expect you to understand it.

          Too bad you don't have the same standard for Pro Palestinians when Israelis die.   This Pro Palestinian just today shows lack of remorse over an Israeli settler who was killed.  No condemnation from you nor would I expect it.


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## Coyote (Apr 30, 2013)

proudveteran06 said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > proudveteran06 said:
> ...



No.  You need to read.  I did not claim you posted that.

I condemn plenty of stupid shit from both sides when it comes to the murder of civilians.  What I don't do is go through every post and respond just to make people like you happy.

Do you go and condemn every dumb ass comment?  Come to think of it - do you EVER condemn crap from the pro-Israeli side?  My guess is no - you don't "give a shit" when it's your side, just like you don't "give a shit" when it's the murder of an arab woman - you are quite clear on that  

   The slaughter of an entire family including the beheading of an infant was more horrendous!  I do not care about " Honor Killings" nor do I have to justify those feelings.   Saying " I don't give a Shit" is not the same as saying " She deserved it!"  Of course I wouldn't expect you to understand it.



> Too bad you don't have the same standard for Pro Palestinians when Israelis die.   This Pro Palestinian just today shows lack of remorse over an Israeli settler who was killed.  No condemnation from you nor would I expect it.



Here's a hint:  better get your own house in order first, before casting about to disparage others


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## Coyote (Apr 30, 2013)

proudveteran06 said:


> The slaughter of an entire family including the beheading of an infant was more horrendous! * I do not care about " Honor Killings" nor do I have to justify those feelings. *  Saying " I don't give a Shit" is not the same as saying " She deserved it!"  Of course I wouldn't expect you to understand it.



No one is asking you to justify those feelings.

However, it makes a joke of your attacks on the so-called "pro-Palestinians" that you don't care if an innocent Arab women or girl is brutally murdered as long as she isn't a Jew.

They are all human being who did nothing to deserve what was done to them.


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## Lipush (Apr 30, 2013)

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> My goodness, it looks like honor killings are a teaching of Judaism. And I edit this post, to clarify that I do not think that is true, but certainly anyone could read that verse and have a basis to make such a claim.



When was the last time a Jewish woman was stoned by family member???


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## sealadaigh (Apr 30, 2013)

proudveteran06 said:


> reabhloideach said:
> 
> 
> > proudveteran06 said:
> ...



LEARN HOW TO FRIGGIN' READ!!!

where have i blamed jews for anything that the catholic church did.

you just really feel some irrational need to perpetrate some myth about catholics blaming jews for whatever, that is when you aren't engaging yoursel in inventing myths about muslims.


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## irosie91 (Apr 30, 2013)

for our  bible scholar who pointed out   "HONOR KILLINGS"   as advocated 
in the bible------I would appreciate your pointing them out again.   
Some of your "teachers"   may have the opinion that if something 
is reported as happening in the bible---then it was ADVOCATED. 
Interestingly enough----such is not true-----ancient commentaries 
tell the full story        For the record----the tithe laws specifically 
exclude some products including cumin.      
Al Azhar University----can provide the accepted interpretation 
of the koran----not the bible


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## sealadaigh (Apr 30, 2013)

proudveteran06 said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > proudveteran06 said:
> ...



this may come as a big shock to you and irose, but muslims have children too.


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## irosie91 (Apr 30, 2013)

reabhloideach said:


> proudveteran06 said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...



this may come as a shock to you,   Deach-----but you are addressing me 
(irose)
even though not a single word I posted is cited in your citation.    Where 
have I suggested that muslims do not have children?    I am fully aware 
of lots of muslim children.     The first muslim I knew in life was a child---
but then---so was I.


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## sealadaigh (Apr 30, 2013)

irosie91 said:


> reabhloideach said:
> 
> 
> > proudveteran06 said:
> ...



you made an earlier post.


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## proudveteran06 (Apr 30, 2013)

reabhloideach said:


> irosie91 said:
> 
> 
> > reabhloideach said:
> ...



  I agree Muslims have Children; They are called Suicide Bombers

  Since I'm " supposed" to feel the way Muslims do does that mean not only should I lack compassion but actually CHEER when a Palestinian ( Child or otherwise) gets killed and pass out the Candy?  

O.K. THEN !!!!   FREE HERSHEY BARS FOR EVERYBODY !


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## ForeverYoung436 (Apr 30, 2013)

Like the Boston bomber's mother told him, "Go to Palestine!"  She encouraged her own son to go into harm's way!


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## Coyote (Apr 30, 2013)

That's just plain retarded.

The vast majority of Muslims do not have (nor desire) their children to become suicide bombers.

Most do not cheer the deaths of others.l


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## SherriMunnerlyn (Apr 30, 2013)

Lipush said:


> SherriMunnerlyn said:
> 
> 
> > My goodness, it looks like honor killings are a teaching of Judaism. And I edit this post, to clarify that I do not think that is true, but certainly anyone could read that verse and have a basis to make such a claim.
> ...



JESUS stopped the stoning of one.


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## toastman (Apr 30, 2013)

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> > SherriMunnerlyn said:
> ...



Still no link to an incident where there was an honor killing involving Jews , eh?


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## ForeverYoung436 (Apr 30, 2013)

That's good to know.  But even SOME Muslim mothers wanting their children to be martyrs is pretty sick.  Six people were just killed in a suicide bombing in Pakistan.  But they don't matter since they were killed by their own kind, and not Jews.


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## ForeverYoung436 (Apr 30, 2013)

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> > SherriMunnerlyn said:
> ...



2000 years ago.  When was that Saudi princess stoned? 20 years ago?


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## SherriMunnerlyn (Apr 30, 2013)

toastman said:


> SherriMunnerlyn said:
> 
> 
> > Lipush said:
> ...



Is that the issue here?


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## toastman (Apr 30, 2013)

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> toastman said:
> 
> 
> > SherriMunnerlyn said:
> ...



You made the claim, so back it up, or admit you were wrong, as usual


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## proudveteran06 (Apr 30, 2013)

Coyote said:


> proudveteran06 said:
> 
> 
> > The slaughter of an entire family including the beheading of an infant was more horrendous! * I do not care about " Honor Killings" nor do I have to justify those feelings. *  Saying " I don't give a Shit" is not the same as saying " She deserved it!"  Of course I wouldn't expect you to understand it.
> ...








  Regarding my not caring because she wasn't Jewish; Too bad you don't have the same standard with Pro Palestinians.  You also wrote a post about Indonesia ( Saw it earlier).  What that has to do with the General Problem is unrelated.   You can deny it all you want.

  The " kosher " Laws are man made just like many of the " laws" in the Catholic Church are concerning marriage, divorce, etc.  Still a part of their Religion.  Maybe now you can tell us why their laws permit it.





Pakistan Parents Say They Murdered Daughter In 'Honor Killing' Because She Looked At A Boy 








11/05/12 01:19 PM ET EST  AP 






Follow


  Crime   ,   Pakistan   ,   Video   ,  News  ,  Girl Murdered For Eyeing Boy  ,  Honor Killing  ,  Honor Killing Pakistan  ,  Murder  ,  Pakistan Parents Kill Daughter  ,  Parents Kill Daughter  ,   World News  













ISLAMABAD -- A Pakistani couple accused of killing their 15-year-old daughter by pouring acid on her carried out the attack because she sullied the family's honor by looking at a boy, the couple said in an interview broadcast Monday by the BBC.

The girl's death underlines the problem of so-called "honor killings" in Pakistan where women are often killed for marrying or having relationships not approved by their families or because they are perceived to have somehow dishonored their family.

The girl's parents, Mohammad Zafar and his wife Zaheen, recounted the Oct. 29 incident from jail. The father said the girl had turned to look at a boy who drove by on a motorcycle, and he told her it was wrong.

"She said `I didn't do it on purpose. I won't look again.' By then I had already thrown the acid. It was her destiny to die this way," the girl's mother told the British broadcaster.

Television footage of the couple showed them standing behind bars in separate, but adjoining jail cells.

The father said the family had already come under public censure because of their older daughter's behavior, but he did not detail what exactly he meant.

Pakistani officials initially said the attack occurred because the girl supposedly had an affair with a boy.

According to the Human Rights Commission of Pakistan, at least 943 women were killed in the name of honor last year. Only 20 of the women were reported to have been given medical care before they died, the report said. The real toll is believed to be higher because many of the crimes go unreported.

"Throughout the year, women were callously killed in the name of honor when they went against family wishes in any way, or even on the basis of suspicion that they did so. Women were sometimes killed in the name of honor over property disputes and inheritance rights," the report said.

Pakistan Parents Say They Murdered Daughter In 'Honor Killing' Because She Looked At A Boy




http://http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/11/05/pakistan-parents-killed-d_0_n_2078365.html


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## irosie91 (Apr 30, 2013)

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> > SherriMunnerlyn said:
> ...




The parable in the new testament -----is a reflection of 
CLASSICAL PHARISAICAL JUDAISM  .      Only an idiot would 
take it as history ------unless one wishes to claim that christian 
theology is nonsense.      According to christian explication of the 
accounts of history------the REASON  jews did not kill Jesus is 
because the romans 
did not allow the jews to EXECUTE PEOPLE----<<< not quite true
ALSO ---the fact is that  ----in the Israel/Judea of 2000 years ago---
the only legal body that could condemn a person to death under 
jewish law -----was the Sanhedrin in Jerusalem      Bottom 
line------the sanhedrin could but CHOSE not to ----in case of 
Jesus-------the stoning of an adultress could not have happened 
witnout the sanhedrin -----unless it was being done by criminals 
or------romans  ---
---its a PARABLE, JERK  !!!!!!!!!!!!    just as is the  
GOOD SAMARITIN thing------parables by the thousands marked 
that time  -----     in fact  the fave of  Jesus---HILLEL   invented 
lots----well maybe not thousands ----but certainly scores'

The midrash is largely a collection of  parables   too.  


for the record-----were a woman simply stoned to death in 
a village-----that act would be considered MURDER  -----
the people who so engaged could not even claim 
the  "mob did it"      as southern lynchers did to get away 
with murdering  black children

the village would be in grave trouble and face all kinds 
of  things they would have to do----to EXPIATE THE SIN


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## proudveteran06 (Apr 30, 2013)

That's just plain retarded.

The vast majority of Muslims do not have (nor desire) their children to become suicide bombers.

Most do not cheer the deaths of others.l[/QUOTE]

  Unless they're Jews.  However the Pro Palestinian sees nothing wrong with that !


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## ForeverYoung436 (Apr 30, 2013)

By the way proudveteran, are you Jewish and a veteran?  According to Seal, no Jews have served in the American army.  Actually, there are no crescent moons, or very few, in Arlington Cemetary.  Oh and Seal can't use population as an excuse anymore.  There are about 5 or 6 million Muslims in America now.


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## proudveteran06 (Apr 30, 2013)

Coyote said:


> proudveteran06 said:
> 
> 
> > Regarding your " legal" question I have already answered it.  The Kosher Laws aren't written anywhere in the Old Testament yet it's part of the Religion.  On Friday's Catholocs were forbidden to eat Meat.  It obviously wasn't written anywhere but still a part of their religion.  The examples go on and on.
> ...



   What does Indonesia have to do with the fact this mainly occurs among Muslims?  Why single out one Country?   " Kosher Food Laws" are still Man's law just like rules Catholics follow; No Divorce, Against Abortion, Birth Control, etc. etc.  That was my point

       Continue to be Hypocritical and keep denying this happens primarily among Muslims and is happening here. " Honor Killings" are either not persecuted or they are given a slap on the wrist.   One example of it happening here;  A Egyptian man DELIBERATELY ran over and killed his two daughters because they were " disrespecting him".( They can't find him now)  Did he come from Indonesia?  No, he didn't.  Who cares where he comes from?   He's a MUSLIM .

       There was another case in NYS where a MUSLIM beheaded his WIFE!   
      I refuse to call a " Honor Killing" an " Honor Killing?"  lol   Makes as much sense as the rest of your posts


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## irosie91 (Apr 30, 2013)

Societies are not really characterized by what  MOST  of  
their members do or think.    They are characterized by 
what their MOST IMPORTANT PEOPLE DO AND THINK 
AND BELIEVE AND TEACH  -----the rest of the people 
are passive accepters of the  rules and ideals created 
for them.      BASEBALL is an all american sport-----even 
though most americans do not play the game----
basball greats are our heroes

Jihadi with bomb on ass is an all islamic game----even 
though most muslims do not take part----Jihadis 
are the heroes of the ummah


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## proudveteran06 (Apr 30, 2013)

HI!

  Regarding Seal, look down and consider the source.

   reabhloideach: fuck you and the horse who rode in on ya, jew. get your sorry, money grubbin' jewish ass back to work and sell some kidneys and cheat little old ladies out of their retirements.

    His " Church"* XXXXXXXXXXXXXX*


         I am a RN and was a Flight Nurse during Desert Storm. There was a lot of time lapse for me between the POI board closing and me joining this one. I was overseas for a short time.  I am in the USAF Reserves .  Yes, I am Jewish


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## Coyote (Apr 30, 2013)

proudveteran06 said:


> What does Indonesia have to do with the fact this mainly occurs among Muslims?  Why single out one Country?   " Kosher Food Laws" are still Man's law just like rules Catholics follow; No Divorce, Against Abortion, Birth Control, etc. etc.  That was my point



I truly don't get what you are saying here.  

You keep insisting that honor killing is an Islamic thing (as opposed to something endemic in cultures in certain parts of the world).  So I point out the* largest Islamic country* (in terms of population) - a country with very few honor killings and ask how you reconcile your claim with that?  Clearly it isn't a part of the religion when  it is rare in the most populous Muslim country.  Add to that you can find nothing in the religion that actively supports it - unlike Kosher laws who have their origins in the OT (which I linked to).



> Continue to be Hypocritical and keep denying this happens primarily among Muslims and is happening here



I'm not being hypocritical.  I am simply pointing out (and supporting) basic facts that you are unable to dispute:
- honor killings occur through out the world, most commonly in Middle East and Asia
- they occur in all religions of those parts of the world
- none of those religions actively endorse honor killings



> . " Honor Killings" are either not persecuted or they are given a slap on the wrist.   One example of it happening here;  A Egyptian man DELIBERATELY ran over and killed his two daughters because they were " disrespecting him".( They can't find him now)



And that is exactly the problem.  Not the religion - it has little to do with what the religion says - but the culture of people in those parts of the world because it's not just Egyptian Muslims but Egyptian Christians.  And, I absolutely agree with you that prosecution of those crimes is shameful as is the general attitude towards women.  You will find that same attitude in non-Muslim dominant countries like India.  Yet you continue to ignore that in pursuit of a Muslim-only blame.



> Did he come from Indonesia?  No, he didn't.  Who cares where he comes from?   He's a MUSLIM .



Who cares if he's Muslim?  He's EGYPTIAN.

And never mind that honor killings are rare in the Muslim controlled country of Indonesia.



> There was another case in NYS where a MUSLIM beheaded his WIFE!
> I refuse to call a " Honor Killing" an " Honor Killing?"  lol   Makes as much sense as the rest of your posts



Ya...you only call it "honor killing" when it's a Muslim.  A Christian doing the same thing or a Hindu doing the same is not an "honor killing".  That logic don't fly.


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## Lipush (Apr 30, 2013)

*Most do not cheer the deaths of others anymore than most Jews cheer the deaths of Palestinian civilians. *

What??

When, why, and how.


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## sealadaigh (Apr 30, 2013)

ForeverYoung436 said:


> proudveteran06 said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...


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## Coyote (Apr 30, 2013)

Lipush said:


> *Most do not cheer the deaths of others anymore than most Jews cheer the deaths of Palestinian civilians. *
> 
> What??
> 
> When, why, and how.



My mistake - I posted in the wrong place (got distracted) so...it made no sense


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## Coyote (Apr 30, 2013)

reabhloideach said:


> ForeverYoung436 said:
> 
> 
> > proudveteran06 said:
> ...


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## sealadaigh (Apr 30, 2013)

Lipush said:


> *Most do not cheer the deaths of others anymore than most Jews cheer the deaths of Palestinian civilians. *
> 
> What??
> 
> When, why, and how.



well, i distinctly remember the absolute glee of the zionists during thre lebanon war and which was almost equalled in cast lead.

you people ecuse or condone every single palestinian deaths. i have even heard the acts baruch goldstein mitigated by people on this board (and he is regarded still as a hero by many jews, israelis and, especially, settlers)


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## irosie91 (Apr 30, 2013)

coyote----you are depending on exceptions to  prove your point.   
It does not fly.    In fact----female circumcision is rare in Iran----
but in fact----it is----in WORLD ----overwhelmingly a muslim thing. 
go right ahead and cite the exceptions  

a nice idea would be to rename  those "honor killings"---
to   Killing of female KIN  for sexual indiscretions 
    Spouse killing is an entirely different category 
of murder.     The Brazilian laws regarding killing a wife caught
inflagrante delicto  have nothing to do with  "honor killings" 
aka  killing female kin for sexual indiscretion.   The brazilian 
thing is macho man gone nuts ----more like temporary 
insanity as a defense for manslaughter.    I would agree 
that if the man decides to do it three months later------
you could call that something like "honor killing"


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## sealadaigh (Apr 30, 2013)

Coyote said:


> proudveteran06 said:
> 
> 
> > What does Indonesia have to do with the fact this mainly occurs among Muslims?  Why single out one Country?   " Kosher Food Laws" are still Man's law just like rules Catholics follow; No Divorce, Against Abortion, Birth Control, etc. etc.  That was my point
> ...




beating women senseless for spending to much on groceries or for not having the frig properly stocked for sunday football games are not honour killings, even if death ensues.

let's get our priorities straight. it is OK to kill women for somethings, and especially when we can point our clean and righteous finger at someone else.

now watch...some zionist, muslim hating, clown will say i am advocating killing women.


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## Coyote (Apr 30, 2013)

irosie91 said:


> coyote----you are depending on exceptions to  prove your point.
> It does not fly.    In fact----female circumcision is rare in Iran----
> but in fact----it is----in WORLD ----overwhelmingly a muslim thing.
> go right ahead and cite the exceptions



Female circumcision is not Islamic and like honor killings pre-dates the religions.  They occur in countries with certain cultural backgrounds irregardless of religion.  It is *most common in the western, eastern, and north-eastern regions of Africa* (both Islamic and Christian and indiginous belief systems), and in some countries in Asia and the Middle East, and among migrants from these areas.  



> *a nice idea would be to rename  those "honor killings"---
> to   Killing of female KIN  for sexual indiscretions *
> Spouse killing is an entirely different category
> of murder.     The Brazilian laws regarding killing a wife caught
> ...



Agree - but, it's all about macho men owning women and their chastity.


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## ForeverYoung436 (Apr 30, 2013)

reabhloideach said:


> ForeverYoung436 said:
> 
> 
> > proudveteran06 said:
> ...


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## irosie91 (Apr 30, 2013)

Coyote said:


> irosie91 said:
> 
> 
> > coyote----you are depending on exceptions to  prove your point.
> ...





not exactly     SEXUAL JEALOUSY  is a huge issue for BOTH MEN AND WOMEN 
in  western culture ----in fact it comes along with SEXUAL CHOICE.   Sexuality 
is a huge issue in CRIME......in the islamic system the chastity thing relates 
the   blood ties of the woman and its family  "HONOR"    How you can 
equate a mother taking part in the killing of her daughter for 
sexual indiscretion with a macho brazilian killing his wfe INFLAGRANTE 
DELICTO ---mystifies me

as to female circumcision---it is OVERWHLMINGLY  islamic ----today---
it was invented in ancient   egypt       a large number of ISLAMIC 
SCHOLARS  ---support it a religious rite   TODAY          the fact that it 
was invented before islam existed----is really not an arguement---the 
fact that the rite spread from egypt to subsaharan africa is not 
an arguement either.    The fact that it does show up wherever  islam 
WENT    in cultures that never had it before islam got there  ----eg  PAKISTAN---
is an arguement valid arguement for its being associated with islam 


It is mentioned in the koran indicating that the custom had 
spread from    egypt to arabia before islam was invented----
the fact that  it is mentioned by  muhummad himself----made 
it  HALAL for muslims       I am amazed that so many here never 
read either the bible or the koran-----I read them both in 
adolescence----with the same motivation which led me to read 
my brothers'  superman comics-----they were available. 
Female circ is not mentioned in the bible or the talmud----
male circ is-----and that was probably invented before 
Judaism.     There is some indication based on weird ornamentation 
of the  vulva area in some of the   canaanite peoples----
that female circ was practiced in canaan ----the ornaments 
required at least a piercing.    

Piercing of the ears is mentioned in the bible and talmud---
but not of the labia


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## Coyote (Apr 30, 2013)

irosie91 said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > irosie91 said:
> ...



Where is female circumcision mentioned in the Koran?


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## sealadaigh (Apr 30, 2013)

ForeverYoung436 said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > irosie91 said:
> ...



give me a link to this admission, you low life liar. as far as i am concerned, this is not much different than accusing someone of paedophilia or bestiality. report me to the police, why don't you. afraid of the lawsuit.

is this the only way you asses can beat me. you are one sorry lowlife.

where is the link. you all never provide links.

you all are terrified of me...LOL.


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## patrickcaturday (Apr 30, 2013)

proudveteran06 said:


> HI!
> 
> Regarding Seal, look down and consider the source.
> 
> ...




*You know I have checked through Seal's posts and I have not found any quotes by him that remotely resemble this one, is it possible that you could provide us with a link. The reason I ask this is because I have found that most of the things that are attributed, especially those on the old POI board, to him are either highly misleading or outright lies and none of them have any context so they can be judged accurately.*


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## sealadaigh (Apr 30, 2013)

Coyote said:


> reabhloideach said:
> 
> 
> > ForeverYoung436 said:
> ...


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## ForeverYoung436 (Apr 30, 2013)

Anyways, back to the topic of honor killings.  I believe in the Koran it says a man can beat his wife.  This is a prelude to honor killings.  I might have been wrong about honor killings only being about rape.  That's what the news report said.  But, like I said before, denying that Muslim societies have problems with terror and honor killings, because of being politically correct, will only continue the problems and not solve them.


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## SherriMunnerlyn (Apr 30, 2013)

ForeverYoung436 said:


> Anyways, back to the topic of honor killings.  I believe in the Koran it says a man can beat his wife.  This is a prelude to honor killings.  I might have been wrong about honor killings only being about rape.  That's what the news report said.  But, like I said before, denying that Muslim societies have problems with terror and honor killings, because of being politically correct, will only continue the problems and not solve them.



WHERE IN THE Koran DOES IT SAY THAT? We have already established The Torah sanctions honor killings.


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## Hossfly (Apr 30, 2013)

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> > SherriMunnerlyn said:
> ...


Can you tell Jesus to stop the killing of Christians in the Muslim world since you are such "a good humanitarian?"


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## proudveteran06 (Apr 30, 2013)

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> ForeverYoung436 said:
> 
> 
> > Anyways, back to the topic of honor killings.  I believe in the Koran it says a man can beat his wife.  This is a prelude to honor killings.  I might have been wrong about honor killings only being about rape.  That's what the news report said.  But, like I said before, denying that Muslim societies have problems with terror and honor killings, because of being politically correct, will only continue the problems and not solve them.
> ...



   Even if the Torah dies sanction Honor Killings, so what?   Is it taught?  More importantly, it is done should be the question.  This " Christian" married to a Muslim still denies that Islam sanctions it and there are laws on the books that ALLOW MEN TO DO THIS !


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## SherriMunnerlyn (Apr 30, 2013)

proudveteran06 said:


> SherriMunnerlyn said:
> 
> 
> > ForeverYoung436 said:
> ...



I presented an article where Jews were calling for honor killings. So you apparently cannot speak for all of your Klansmen. AND one more time. Stop lying, stop your lying and bigoted claims that Islam sanctions this honor killing practice and laws allow it. BOTH CLAIMS ARE BOGUS! And as for my husband, he stopped being a Muslim before I met him over 20 years ago. SO, STOP MAKING THAT FALSE CLAIM TOO!


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## SherriMunnerlyn (Apr 30, 2013)

"Even within the Middle East, honour killing is not restricted to Muslims. In Yemen, a*Jewish*father killed his daughter after a rebuke from the rabbi for her extra-marital pregnancy, and in Palestine, in 2005, Faten Habash was beaten to death with an iron bar, wielded by her*Christian*father because she wanted to marry her Muslim boyfriend.While there is no Quranic justification for honour killing, it is unfortunately true that many of the perpetrators believe themselves justified by their faith. All religions are influenced by the patriarchal culture under which they were created and so codify some of the oppressive practises of their time. All religions are interpreted by reactionary elements who wish to defend and retain patriarchal dominance. It is in the name of Christianity that reactionary elements in some American states and European countries restrict abortion rights; it was in the name of Islam that reactionary elements in Jordan and Pakistan blocked legal amendments which would have closed loopholes that allow honour killers to escape with token punishment. As Nilofar Bakhtiar, adviser to Pakistan's prime minister on Women's' Development says, men find it "very convenient to say that what they don't want to do is against Islam and what they want to do is in the name of Islam."  http://www.islamawareness.net/HonourKilling/outside.html


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## Hossfly (Apr 30, 2013)

reabhloideach said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > proudveteran06 said:
> ...


Seal doesn't seem to be able to absorb the fact that civilized people don't like to see any violence against women whatever their religion is.  I have a great idea for Seal.  If he is ever in the Los Angeles area, he can visit that young Afghani woman whose husband cut off her nose and her ear and she is now awaiting plastic surgery to fix her up.  Take her out to lunch and symphasize with her as to the ordeal she has gone through.


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## Hossfly (Apr 30, 2013)

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> ForeverYoung436 said:
> 
> 
> > Anyways, back to the topic of honor killings.  I believe in the Koran it says a man can beat his wife.  This is a prelude to honor killings.  I might have been wrong about honor killings only being about rape.  That's what the news report said.  But, like I said before, denying that Muslim societies have problems with terror and honor killings, because of being politically correct, will only continue the problems and not solve them.
> ...


I don't think Frau Sherri took ancient history in high school where she would have found out that people were very violent in the olden times and even had child sacrifices.  Meanwhile, we are talking about today, Frau Sherri.  It seems that your friends are the champions when it comes to honor killings.  I do hope that if you find out that one has been committed in your general area that you report this to the authorities.


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## Hossfly (Apr 30, 2013)

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> "Even within the Middle East, honour killing is not restricted to Muslims. In Yemen, a*Jewish*father killed his daughter after a rebuke from the rabbi for her extra-marital pregnancy, and in Palestine, in 2005, Faten Habash was beaten to death with an iron bar, wielded by her*Christian*father because she wanted to marry her Muslim boyfriend.While there is no Quranic justification for honour killing, it is unfortunately true that many of the perpetrators believe themselves justified by their faith. All religions are influenced by the patriarchal culture under which they were created and so codify some of the oppressive practises of their time. All religions are interpreted by reactionary elements who wish to defend and retain patriarchal dominance. It is in the name of Christianity that reactionary elements in some American states and European countries restrict abortion rights; it was in the name of Islam that reactionary elements in Jordan and Pakistan blocked legal amendments which would have closed loopholes that allow honour killers to escape with token punishment. As Nilofar Bakhtiar, adviser to Pakistan's prime minister on Women's' Development says, men find it "very convenient to say that what they don't want to do is against Islam and what they want to do is in the name of Islam."  Honour killing outside the world of Islam


I am sure Frau Sherri can give us all the statistics of the honor killings in every Muslim country there is, even it includes members of the minorities living there.  The statistics will no doubt show that there are many, many honor killings among Muslims.  By the way, I think many of us have seen the video of a Mullah or Imam telling the men how to beat their wives.  I wonder how many Muslim men follow this advice and beat their wives up here in America the same way the clergyman in the video tells them to.


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## SherriMunnerlyn (May 1, 2013)

Hossfly said:


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It seems you are only capable of making baseless claims that always demonize Muslims.


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## toastman (May 1, 2013)

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> Hossfly said:
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It seems like 99.9% of your posts are to demonize Israel


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## SherriMunnerlyn (May 1, 2013)

Hossfly said:


> SherriMunnerlyn said:
> 
> 
> > "Even within the Middle East, honour killing is not restricted to Muslims. In Yemen, a*Jewish*father killed his daughter after a rebuke from the rabbi for her extra-marital pregnancy, and in Palestine, in 2005, Faten Habash was beaten to death with an iron bar, wielded by her*Christian*father because she wanted to marry her Muslim boyfriend.While there is no Quranic justification for honour killing, it is unfortunately true that many of the perpetrators believe themselves justified by their faith. All religions are influenced by the patriarchal culture under which they were created and so codify some of the oppressive practises of their time. All religions are interpreted by reactionary elements who wish to defend and retain patriarchal dominance. It is in the name of Christianity that reactionary elements in some American states and European countries restrict abortion rights; it was in the name of Islam that reactionary elements in Jordan and Pakistan blocked legal amendments which would have closed loopholes that allow honour killers to escape with token punishment. As Nilofar Bakhtiar, adviser to Pakistan's prime minister on Women's' Development says, men find it "very convenient to say that what they don't want to do is against Islam and what they want to do is in the name of Islam."  Honour killing outside the world of Islam
> ...



How did we arrive at the subject of Muslim men beating their wives? What I know is men beating their wives is not something only Muslims do. AND most people do not watch those Muslim hating propaganda videos you so love, they do not watch them and they know they are filled with nothing but propaganda and lies.


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## Lipush (May 1, 2013)

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> ForeverYoung436 said:
> 
> 
> > Anyways, back to the topic of honor killings.  I believe in the Koran it says a man can beat his wife.  This is a prelude to honor killings.  I might have been wrong about honor killings only being about rape.  That's what the news report said.  But, like I said before, denying that Muslim societies have problems with terror and honor killings, because of being politically correct, will only continue the problems and not solve them.
> ...



Surat Al-Nisa' (Surah number 4): _"...So righteous women are devoutly obedient, guarding in [the husband's] absence what Allah would have them guard. But those [wives] from whom you fear arrogance - [first] advise them; [then if they persist], forsake them in bed; and [finally], strike them."_


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## Lipush (May 1, 2013)

reabhloideach said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> > *Most do not cheer the deaths of others anymore than most Jews cheer the deaths of Palestinian civilians. *
> ...



"you people ecuse or condone every single palestinian deaths."

NOT TRUE AT ALL!

" i have even heard the acts baruch goldstein mitigated by people on this board"

So please bring over a link, or quote a post, if you do not mind! I don't recall any Zionist poster here accepting Goldstein's actions or seeing him as a hero!


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## SherriMunnerlyn (May 1, 2013)

Lipush said:


> reabhloideach said:
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Just go to the thresd about the 82 year old woman in Hebron, I was reading a post from irosie about what a kind hesrted man Goldstein was.


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## SherriMunnerlyn (May 1, 2013)

Lipush said:


> SherriMunnerlyn said:
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Since when does strike mean kill?


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## Lipush (May 1, 2013)

"_I believe in the Koran it says a man can beat his wife_. This is a prelude to honor killings."

He said that the Quran permits beating, and that it's the prelude to honor killing. the question was about if it permits beating.

the answer was given


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## Lipush (May 1, 2013)

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> Lipush said:
> 
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> > reabhloideach said:
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She didn't say anything about Goldstein besides the fact that his colleagues mourned his death


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## sealadaigh (May 1, 2013)

Hossfly said:


> SherriMunnerlyn said:
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what an incredibly cruel and sexist thing to say. you not only owe sherri an apology, and women in general an apology, but men as well.


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## SherriMunnerlyn (May 1, 2013)

Lipush said:


> SherriMunnerlyn said:
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Thats not all she has said.


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## Lipush (May 1, 2013)

I  believe so. If I'm wrong, then please quote the post itself, I may have missed it, if so, than my bad it'll be.


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## sealadaigh (May 1, 2013)

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> Lipush said:
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oh c'mon. it's not that bad, this beloved colleague. it's not as if the knesset had to pass laws against people worshipping him or that his tomb had to be bulldozed to deter hero worshipping pilgrims...

it is not like people celebrate him in songs with lyrics like...

"Dr. Goldstein, there is none other like you in the world. Dr. Goldstein, we all love you he aimed at terrorists' heads, squeezed the trigger hard, and shot bullets, and shot, and shot." 

Sheikh Jarrah Jews praise Baruch Goldstein on Purim - Israel News, Ynetnews

oh, and for the sake of historical accuracy...

"and shot and shot and shot and shot and shot and shot and shot and shot and shot
and shot and shot and shot and shot and shot and shot and shot and shot and shot
and shot and shot and shot and shot and shot and shot and shot and shot."

who knows. maybe he was kind hearted and just putting the as many of the palestinians on the west bank as he could with his limited supply of ammo out of the misery he knew they would be suffering at the hands of his beloved colleagues today.


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## Lipush (May 1, 2013)

Most Israelis feel disgusted by his actions. That's the one truth that matters.


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## Lipush (May 1, 2013)

Coyote said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> > "_I believe in the Koran it says a man can beat his wife_. This is a prelude to honor killings."
> ...



As I said before, the issue was beating, not killing.

I simply quoted from the Quran.


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## Coyote (May 1, 2013)

ForeverYoung436 said:


> Anyways, back to the topic of honor killings.  I believe in the Koran it says a man can beat his wife. * This is a prelude to honor killings*.  I might have been wrong about honor killings only being about rape.  That's what the news report said.  But, like I said before, denying that Muslim societies have problems with terror and honor killings, because of being politically correct, will only continue the problems and not solve them.



Only in a very twisted sense can it be used to justify killing.  Those who use that to claim that Islam endorses honor killing ignore a similar passage in the bible that is even more explicit:

Lev 21:9  And the daughter of any priest, if she profane herself by playing the whore, she profaneth her father: she shall be burnt with fire.

Of course it all comes from the same Middle Eastern culture and God.

It has nothing to do with being "politically correct" - only with being honest.  The real issue is that these societies and cultures have problems with women and violence towards women is socially acceptable.  

When you make it to be a problem of a religion then you leave out the deeper causes in order to focus on the superficial.  The same religions that have passages endorsing violence also have passages endorsing peace, co-existance, love and respect.  The problem is how the adherents choose to follow it.  

When it comes to violence against women - it is by no means limited to Islamic countries though it is common in them because of the culture.  The same sort of culture exists in India and the same problems exist there even though it's not a Muslim country.  

People keep trying to put honor killing into a category by itself, but it isn't - it's part of a pervasive attitude that violence towards women is not only acceptable but often deserved.  Women have acid thrown in their face for lack of "modesty" or even lack of sufficient dowry.  Women are "honor killed" for the same reasons.  Women are raped because they are of a lower caste and the rapists higher.  They get away with it because they have power.   All of this is essentially the same as honor killing yet disregarded in the constant attempt to define honor killing as a distinct entity.

I keep bringing up India because India represents a nation that is non-majority Muslim yet is grappling with a significant problem of a deeply ingrained male dominated culture confronting a modern world where women are not chattel - an attitude especially prevalent in the rural villages and provences.  The now infamous rape of a young student inflamed the nation and people are wanting change - whether it will happen is not clear, there are significant cultural obstacles to overcome, but it's a start.  There are people in the Middle Eastern countries that are voicing similar opinions concerning women, rape, and honor killings and there too, there are going to be significant obstacles not the least of which is a religious view and a culture that is still male dominated.

I also keep bringing up Indonesia because it IS a muslim majority country where the largest population of Muslims live - and honor killings are rare.  You can't simply blame the religion for honor killings and ignore Indonesia's statistics.

It's a more complicated and more pervasive problem then religion.


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## Coyote (May 1, 2013)

proudveteran06 said:


> SherriMunnerlyn said:
> 
> 
> > ForeverYoung436 said:
> ...



Islam no more sanctions honor killing then does Christianity or Judaism.

What laws on what books of what countries?


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## irosie91 (May 1, 2013)

Lipush said:


> SherriMunnerlyn said:
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> 
> > Lipush said:
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sherri lies alot       and she seems to have a very limited vocabulary---
"MITIGATING"  a crime is not the same as endorsing it      I have 
never encountered a lawyer   who did not know the word  "mitigate"

for someone who insists that people who slip into houses 
in order to slit the throats of infants  ----do not belong in 
jail------her comments are truly idiotic       For the record---
I stated clearly and I think twice that I never met  Goldstein--
and now she decided that  I described my impression of his 
personality


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## irosie91 (May 1, 2013)

Idiot lie from sherri >>> (In the name of isa)

""We have already established The Torah sanctions honor killings.""


      sherri----why do you LIE  so openly and audaciously about 
      the Legal system that   Jesus of Nazareth fully endorsed and 
      to which he adhered  


     There is no endorsement of  "honor killings"    in Torah law.  
     Adultery was considered a crime ---but in fact   the judaism 
     of  Jesus-----ie  PHARISEE  Judaism ----- was specifically 
     very lenient on the issue and no one was executed for it.  

     Honor killing refers to relatives killing members of their family 
     for the sake of family  "honor"-----not judicial executions.
     Homemade executions are not legal in Jewish law ---
     and never were.     For a lawyer you know so little 
     about the history of law.      

    the parable of   "cast the first stone"---etc----is very 
    pharisaical in nature------could even have  been something going 
    around that  Hillel said or a commonly voiced adage.   
    Several of the comments attibuted to Jesus in the 
    new testament are simply well known adages of the time


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## toastman (May 1, 2013)

irosie91 said:


> Idiot lie from sherri-----
> 
> We have already established The Torah sanctions honor killings.
> 
> ...



Sherri will take every opportunity to slander the Jews, and then claim that she is not a liar , but instead a good Christian woman


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## SherriMunnerlyn (May 1, 2013)

I do not claim any Religion today sanctions honor killings.


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## irosie91 (May 1, 2013)

toastman said:


> irosie91 said:
> 
> 
> > Idiot lie from sherri-----
> ...




      true----but when did  "we"  establish that  "the torah endorses honor killings"????
          I am curious..        how did   "we"   do that?     She seems to  "know"  
          all kinds of things about books she never read.


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## toastman (May 1, 2013)

irosie91 said:


> toastman said:
> 
> 
> > irosie91 said:
> ...



I asked her several time to post links on some incidents involving Jewish honor killings. 
I'm still waiting


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## Coyote (May 1, 2013)

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> I do not claim any Religion today sanctions honor killings.



No, you didn't - I suspect that will be overlooked.


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## Hossfly (May 1, 2013)

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> Hossfly said:
> 
> 
> > SherriMunnerlyn said:
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Am I all over the Internet day and night telling baseless lies about Israel and the Jews?  As far as honor killings, you will find information about these on the Internet if you would just research it if you can spare a few minutes away from your bashing the Jews and Israel.  I still hope that if you become aware of a honor killing by your friends in your area that you alert the authorities to it.  I don't think Americans wants to see this part of a culture being brought here to America.  Perhaps you were too busy on all your sites to even catch what already has happened here with regard to honor killings.

Afghan woman shot dead by her father in front of mob for 'running away from her husband' | Mail Online


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## irosie91 (May 1, 2013)

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> I do not claim any Religion today sanctions honor killings.




how nice of you.     Honor killings are tolerated in islamic law.    ---that is----
a defense of murder of a female relative ----based on sexual indiscretion 
tends to be accepted in islamic courts      ---in islamic lands---its a variable 
thing-----of course.        Killing a wife  caught   Inflagrante delicto----has 
historically been and in some countries still is a mitigating factor in a charge 
of  "murder"----- even in the USA---such a killing is usually called  
manslaughter------crime of passion. 

I have no idea how it works in Iran----but in the country in which my hubby 
was born-----you can be sure that it is virtually legal   

you should define your terms----what are you actually calling  "honor 
   killing"????


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## SherriMunnerlyn (May 1, 2013)

Coyote said:


> SherriMunnerlyn said:
> 
> 
> > I do not claim any Religion today sanctions honor killings.
> ...



I do not claim today any Religion sanctions honor killings. I do no think this was true in the past.


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## SherriMunnerlyn (May 1, 2013)

DinahThis article is about the Biblical character. For other uses, see*Dinah (disambiguation).In the*Hebrew Bible,*Dinah*(Hebrew:*&#1491;&#1460;&#1468;&#1497;&#1504;&#1464;&#1492;,Modern*Dina*Tiberian*Dîn&#257;*; "Judged; vindicated") was the daughter of*Jacob, one of the*patriarchsof the*Israelites, and*Leah, his first wife. The episode of her abduction and violation by aCanaanite*prince, and the subsequent vengeance of her brothers*Simeon*and*Levi, commonly referred to as "The Rape of Dinah", is told inGenesis 34.The http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dinah


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## Coyote (May 1, 2013)

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> Coyote said:
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> > SherriMunnerlyn said:
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All three Abrahamic religions share the same roots in a culture where honor killing was probably perfectly acceptable.

Most of the ancient world spun that way.


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## SherriMunnerlyn (May 1, 2013)

Coyote said:


> SherriMunnerlyn said:
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I agree.


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## irosie91 (May 1, 2013)

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> Coyote said:
> 
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> > SherriMunnerlyn said:
> ...





what was not true?       you did not even define your use of the term 
"honor killing"  ------long ago  people used to  engage in DUELS   for 
 "HONOR"   -----the objective was to killl the other guy-----legality 
 in those cases -----was variable.      When you use the term  
 "RELIGION SANCTIONS"     what does it mean?     renders it 
 LEGAL?     or just mitigates penalty?    or simply says it is 
 ok in sermons?

 you did falsely claim that  the "torah"   "endorses"  "honor killings"----

 Are sanction,  mitigate and endorse ----all synonymous in your lexicon?

 for islamic law----al azhar  university   ---department of koranic 
 studies is considered   authoritative by the  sunnis of the world----
 there used to be a website listing its   FARTWAHS on law ----but 
 it was so disgusting that it was removed.    One of its top 
 authorities -----is your hero   SHAYKH ABDEL RAHMAN  who considered 
 his bombing of the world trade center in  1993 to be utterly legal ---
 in islamic law.      He has also called upon muslims of the world 
 to kill americans if  HE   dies in prison-----He has a very bad 
 case of diabetes----its amazing he is still alive-----must be those 
 jewish prison doctors

 I do not recall reading anything about honor killings on that 
 website---but its been gone for years.     It did include 
 the legality of killing any israeli regardless of age or gender---
 a fave of isa-respecters ----      lately al azhar koranic 
 scholars legalized killing any jew---regardless of age or 
 gender in the world.  -----I do not know if they have 
 made a statement on killing americans.


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## irosie91 (May 1, 2013)

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > SherriMunnerlyn said:
> ...




what culture was that?      in order to understand  islam----a useful 
thing would be a study of  "ancient"    (well----1400 years ago 
if you wish to call that ancient)    culture of arabia.     Ancient culture 
from which jews derived would be  mesopotamia----not arabia. with 
sojourn in egypt  and ---developement in canaan.    ancient christian 
culture---is largely from greece and rome.      The ancient culture of 
arabia is clouded by rejection of all things pre islamic----I have no 
doubt that there are or were   thousands of  manusciprts left by the 
jews who lived there pre-islamic that would be a good source of 
that history-------maybe some enterprising  bedouin  hid some away 
when   Yathrib aka Medina was  DUG UP

the statement that  "HONOR KILLINGS"    (notably without a definition 
of honor killings)   characterized all cultures of the ancient world 
is about as shallow as any statement can be


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## Coyote (May 1, 2013)

irosie91 said:


> SherriMunnerlyn said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...



The indiginous cultures of the Middle East which produced the OT and NT and Koran.



> in order to understand  islam----a useful
> thing would be a study of  "ancient"    (well----1400 years ago
> if you wish to call that ancient)    culture of arabia.     Ancient culture
> from which jews derived would be  mesopotamia----not arabia. with
> ...



They are all essentially the same when it comes to the treatment and regard of women.  All of those ancient cultures intermingled in the same area and can not be easily be seperated out distinct.  Simply reading the OT and the Koran and looking at the the role of women in the most conservative sects of all 3 religions born of that region is telling.

As far as "rejection" of things pre-Islamic, that seems doubtful since a great deal of learning was preserved by Arab scholars  (including pre-Islamic Roman and Greek material) during the so-called Dark Ages.



> the statement that  "HONOR KILLINGS"    (notably without a definition
> of honor killings)   characterized all cultures of the ancient world
> is about as shallow as any statement can be



It's been defined, multiple times in these discussions.  I'll help you out be defining it yet again, from the same source (Wiki): Honor killing - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

_An honor killing, or honour killing[1] is the homicide of a member of a family or social group by other members, due to the belief of the perpetrators that the victim has brought dishonor upon the family or community.

The perceived dishonor is normally the result of one of the following behaviors, or the suspicion of such behaviors: dressing in a manner unacceptable to the family or community, wanting to terminate or prevent an arranged marriage or desiring to marry by own choice, especially if to a member of a social group deemed inappropriate, engaging in heterosexual acts outside marriage and engaging in homosexual acts. Honor killings have been labeled as a form of gender apartheid.[2]​_
Secondly, I didn't say "honor killing characterized all cultures of the ancient world" - however much of the ancient world - in particular the ME regions - held women in poor regard in terms of rights, power, freedom.  In addition, allegience to family/tribe and it's honor was held far higher than individualism in those cultures.

A good look at the ancient history of honor killing, including the many biblical references and instances: Rabbi Michael Leo Samuel » Blog Archive » Honor Killings in Antiquity (2/2)

I would suggest that the only shallowness lies in your own response and your inner need to maintain the fiction that ancient Arabs were uniquely loathsome in the ancient world.


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## irosie91 (May 1, 2013)

Coyote said:


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> 
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> > SherriMunnerlyn said:
> ...





    wrong again-----I did not even mention the culture of ancient arabia----
    for good reason-----As far as I know ----there is very little information on 
    the actual   culture of ancient arabia  ----I wish they would dig the place up  
    and work it out

    Your citation is excellent------it fully supports everything I have posted 
    about the situation-----your problem is you do not know the biblical references 
    ----and do not understand the article    ----just as an example----the story 
    of  DINAH-----no question her brothers blamed her for GADDING about 
    with those guys from  shechem  (which  btw is nablus)      and no doubt 
    her BROTHERS ----simon and levi ----went off to shechem to punch them out--
    but ----levi and simon was   PUT DOWN for that unwarranted and---barbaric 
    act   by  JACOB--(aka israel)  in his death bed speech when he names 
    judah his successor---------you need to read the whole bible---Jacob 
    virtually calls them stupid thugs   (jacob is the important guy)

   as to the other examples of bible history-----they are just that-----historic 
   account---and most  pre-date ---LAW      You confuse acknowleged 
   CRIME  with  custom and more' 

   you should read the article again----and consider when and in what 
   context the examples take place 

   as to EZEKIEL     he did not describe law or custom---he described something 
   he considered  HORRIBLE   that could happen -----the DURER of his day---

   you probably did not understand the  SOTAH  thing----it refers to a  trial 
   for adultery----in which a woman drinks something----that is supposed 
   to cause her to drop dead if she is guilty------no one ever died from it---
   it was more a conciliation procedure than a trial  (and they lived happily 
   ever after)


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## Coyote (May 1, 2013)

irosie91 said:


> Coyote said:
> 
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> > irosie91 said:
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Agree



> Your citation is excellent------it fully supports everything I have posted
> about the situation-----your problem is you do not know the biblical references
> ----and do not understand the article    ----just as an example----the story
> of  DINAH-----no question her brothers blamed her for GADDING about
> ...



:lol...I like the way you tell the story, certainly more entertaining than the originals.... 

However, it's not me that is using those as examples of honor killing, it's the author, who is himself a Rabbi.  I think he makes a good point and it's an accurate summation of honor killing in antiquity.



> as to the other examples of bible history-----they are just that-----historic
> account---and most  pre-date ---LAW      You confuse acknowleged
> CRIME  with  custom and more'



I'm not confusing anything - just pointing out that honor killing has a rich a varied history in the ancient world (or, to put succinctly - it sucked to be a woman in ancient and even not-so-ancient times).



> you should read the article again----and consider when and in what
> *context *the examples take place
> 
> as to EZEKIEL     he did not describe law or custom---he described something
> he considered  HORRIBLE   that could happen -----the DURER of his day---



Context is interesting and yes, it's very very important.  The context of much of this is in those eras what we term "honor killing" was perfectly acceptable as were arranged and child marriages, polygamy and genocide.  But historical context is often ignored - particularly when picking out individual verses to make a modern point whether it's Koran or Bible.



> you probably did not understand the  SOTAH  thing----it refers to a  trial
> for adultery----in which a woman drinks something----that is supposed
> to cause her to drop dead if she is guilty------no one ever died from it---
> it was more a conciliation procedure than a trial  (and they lived happily
> ever after)



Sotah....is that kind of like the whole dunking the witch thing?


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## irosie91 (May 1, 2013)

yes---see if the witch floats------but sotah is kinda benign---in 
a macabre sort of way------the best part is that no one ever \
died from the drink----but the poor accusing hubby was 
shamed forever by everyone and the wife could spend 
the rest of her life THROWING IT UP TO HIM .

there may have been a provision preventing him from 
divorcing her thereafter. ------stuff that made it unlikely 
to be used-----the stakes for both sides were too high---
the better course for all would be-----just forget about it.

an idea cooked up to deal with a social issue---
inexpensively ----in the absence of marriage 
counselling.    I wish I knew who invented it


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## proudveteran06 (May 1, 2013)

Coyote said:


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   If something isn't " outlawed" or stopped; If it's allowed to continue then it's defined as legal.  Get it?   Of course not.

     Your Friend states that Honor Killings are mentioned in the Torah. Why don't you challenge her?  Of course you wont; She's a Pro Palestinian ; You Hypocrite 


Click here: Abbas aide: No plans to outlaw 'honor killing' | Maan News Agency


Abbas aide: No plans to outlaw 'honor killing' | Maan News Agency



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------




Abbas aide: No plans to outlaw 'honor killing'


Published Monday 24/12/2012 (updated) 29/01/2013 16:02






Police arrest a man accused of killing his niece, Aya Baradiya, in Hebron,
May 12, 2011. (MaanImages/Mohammad Owawy)

By Soraya Al-Ghussein and Hannah Patchett

RAMALLAH (Ma'an) -- President Mahmoud Abbas has no plans to amend laws that reduce sentences for suspects who claim an "honor" defense for murdering women, his legal adviser says.

"Why change it? This would cause serious problems," Hassan al-Ouri told Ma'an, adding that such a reform would "not benefit women."

In May 2011, the president pledged to amend the law to guarantee maximum penalties for "honor killing" in response to protests over the killing of university student Aya Baradiya in Hebron.

The decision was announced in a phone call to a primetime show on state TV, drawing tears among crowds of mourners shown in a live link-up from the Ramallah studio to Baradiyas hometown.

Abbas suspended Article 340, which offers a pardon for murder if the perpetrator committed the crime on finding his wife in bed with another man.

The reform was cosmetic: Article 340 had never been used in Palestinian courts since it was legislated in 1960.

"So why did we change the law? To garner public opinion," al-Ouri said in an interview in the presidential compound in Ramallah.

"I, personally, was against the amendment because the crimes that happen in the street have no relevance to Article 340," the legal adviser added.

Al-Ouri says the president will not change the go-to clauses for lawyers seeking leniency for clients who claim they committed murder to defend family "honor."

Articles 97 to 100 of the Jordanian Penal Code, in force in the West Bank, still offer reduced sentences for any act of battery or murder committed in a "state of rage."

"The (law) only addresses 1 percent of the problem. What we need is a new culture," al-Ouri said.

Other officials insist the penal code is the problem.

The law "privileges the killer," Interior Ministry official Haitham Arrar told Ma'an.

"It encourages some people to commit crimes against women, which will go (as far as) killing them," said Arrar, who heads the ministry's democracy and human rights unit.

 Abbas fears 'conservative forces' 

The Palestinian Legislative Council has not met since 2007, when Hamas and Fatah split, but women's rights expert Soraida Hussein dismisses arguments that reforms must wait until parliament reconvenes. 

"For us, for women, all this is irrelevant," said Hussein, general director of the Women's Technical Affairs Committee, an umbrella group of womens organizations. "Until now, our lives -- in law and in practice -- are seen as less than men's."

The president should issue a decree that "anybody killing anyone else will be sentenced to the highest sentence possible, whether it is a woman or a boy," says Hussein.

"The minute the law is changed and applied, the minute people will think twice," she says. "It's simple and it's not done."

Hussein suggests Abbas is hesitant to pass legal reforms because "he is not ready yet to confront conservative forces."

In 2009, Abbas ratified the UN Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Discrimination Against Women, but al-Ouri, the legal adviser, says it will only be implemented "so long as it doesnt contravene Islamic code."

"Look, we are for total equality but if there is a basic tenet of Islamic code that we would be forced to change under CEDAW, then people would revolt and brand us as non-believers," al-Ouri said.

'Dressing up honor'

Lax laws encourage murder suspects to claim "honor" in their defense, officials and womens rights activists say.

"Because the penalty is one or two months, they consider killing her and dress it up as honor," Minister of Women's Affairs Rahiba Diab told Ma'an.

Khawla al-Azraq, who runs a womens counseling center in Bethlehem, notes that femicide is a global issue but "now in Palestine, they call this honor killing."

"Sometimes these girls are abused by someone in the family and they need to cover this (up) and they kill her; sometimes because they need her money," she says. "These are the real reasons for killing."

"In Palestine, this is the gap, that until now we dont have our own legislation that really can protect women."

The Independent Commission of Human Rights says 13 women have been killed this year, but the real figure is likely to be higher.

"There has been historically a problem of documentation," says Hussein, the women's rights expert. The cause of suspicious deaths of women was often recorded as "fate," which could refer to forced "suicides" or being pushed from a building, she explained.


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## SherriMunnerlyn (May 1, 2013)

Honor killings are unlawful, your own article says that.


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## Coyote (May 1, 2013)

proudveteran06 said:


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I don't know about the Torah, but the OT is full of honor killings.  It was part of the ME culture. You idiot.  

(I'd be careful about calling others hypocrites when you consistently refuse to call out your own).



> Click here: Abbas aide: No plans to outlaw 'honor killing' | Maan News Agency




You keep bringing up Abbas' aid's statement as if it's supposed to mean anything?


From reading the article,  Abbas is one man, in one non-country, with weak political power - and the issue he is talking about - the potential conflict with conservative forces over more liberal ones is a valid one (for example - if he clashed, and lost to the religious conservatives - it could take Palestinians into worse situation).  Other than that - what he is discussing isn't even about "outlawing" honor killing - it's already against the law, but the penalty for the crime is a lesser one then for other murders (that is how I'm reading it).


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## irosie91 (May 1, 2013)

The  old testament is not full of honor killings of the kind that 
are popping out like popped corn     in any place where muslims 
live.      We are having problems with this discussion because 
even with the definitions provided---we have not defined  
our terms precisely       We should use examples of recently 
published cases.    Girls being killed for wanting to have 
a job.    girls being killed for not wanting to marry the 
chosen guy,    girls being killed for looking at a boy 
or meeting one in a corner.    Dinah was mentioned 
in a citation -----SHE went out of her way to meet 
people ON HER OWN   in shechem ----the story 
was the boys of shechem screwed her  or something 
like that.      HER BROTHERS DID NOT KILL HER.
  Today in many muslim countries----such a girl 
killed by male family members would be considered 
properly killed,    In islamic law she could not claim 
rape ----even if it was rape-----because she WENT 
OUT UNACCOMPANIED <<<<   them's the facts 


I learned about islamic law from muslims and ---dhimmis


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## proudveteran06 (May 1, 2013)

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> Honor killings are unlawful, your own article says that.




  If something is " Unlawful" yet allowed with NO attempts to stop it what does that mean to you?   It goes on, Abbas has stated he DOES NOT ATTEMPT TO PUT A STOP TO IT!  If this was going on in Israel ;you Christian Hypocrite your reaction would be quite different!


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## ForeverYoung436 (May 1, 2013)

irosie91 said:


> Coyote said:
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  There is no mention in the Torah of Dinah's brothers blaming her.  On the contrary, they came to her defense by killing her attackers.


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## proudveteran06 (May 1, 2013)

Coyote said:


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   So Honor Killings are mentioned in the Old Testament; What's your point?   Do the Jewish people practice it You Moron?  

 " Honor Killings" may be " against the law" but it is done , overlooked, and excused!


 SMALL EXAMPLE OF WHAT IS STARTING TO HAPPEN IN THIS COUNTRY!


Upstate Man Charged With Beheading His Estranged Wife

By LIZ ROBBINS

Published: February 17, 2009 


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A man who founded a Muslim American television station to help fight Muslim stereotypes is to appear on Wednesday in a suburban Buffalo court on charges that he decapitated his wife last week. 




Enlarge This Image

Bridges TV, via Associated Press

Aasiya and Muzzammil Hassan in an undated photo. 



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The man, Muzzammil Hassan, 44, went to a police station in Orchard Park, N.Y., on Thursday to report that his wife, Aasiya Zubair Hassan, was dead, Chief Andrew Benz said on Tuesday. Mr. Hassan told the police that her body could be found in the nearby office of the television station, Bridges TV. The police later arrested him on charges of second-degree murder, Chief Benz said. 

On Feb. 6, Ms. Hassan, 37, filed for divorce and obtained an order of protection against Mr. Hassan, Chief Benz said. 

It was unclear on Tuesday night whether Mr. Hassan had legal representation. 

The news of the killing stunned Buffalo, a city already overwhelmed with emotion by the commuter plane crash that killed 50 people in the hamlet of Clarence Center on Thursday. 

The gruesome death of Ms. Hassan prompted outrage from Muslim leaders after suggestions that it had been some kind of honor killing based on religious or cultural beliefs. 

Dr. Sawsan Tabbaa, a Muslim community leader who teaches orthodontia at the State University at Buffalo, said, This is not an honor killing, no way. 

Dr. Tabbaa added, It has nothing to do with his faith. 

At the Muslim Community Center in Amherst, N.Y., on Tuesday, Dr. Tabbaa joined more than 200 others for early morning prayers and a funeral service for Ms. Hassan, who had been active at the centers mosque. 

She was more of a practicing Muslim than her husband, said Hassan Shibly, Dr. Tabbaas son, who worked for the television station with the Hassans before going to law school. She really believed in the cause, wanting to present her faith in an accurate light and now people are blaming her very faith for her death. 

Rabbi Bradley Hirschfeld, the president of the National Jewish Center for Learning and Leadership in New York, worked with Ms. Hassan, who was a programmer at the station, for three years and said they were good friends. He said that when he first met Mr. Hassan, he considered him smart and charming. 

Rabbi Hirschfeld said Ms. Hassan had confided in him a few years ago about incidents of domestic abuse, but at the time she insisted that her husband was getting counseling. She later told Rabbi Hirschfeld that the counselor had told her she was safe. 

I knew there were issues in the marriage, Rabbi Hirschfeld said. I didnt know it was this bad. My immediate response is horror and incredible sadness. 

The Associated Press reported on Tuesday that the police had responded in the past to domestic dispute calls at the Hassan house. 

The couple have two children in elementary school and Mr. Hassan has two teenage children from a previous marriage, friends of the couple said. 

At the television station on Tuesday, bouquets of flowers were left next to the locked door. One had a note: In memory of Aasiya. May Allah keep you at peace and from any more harm. 

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/18/nyregion/18behead.html?_r=0

Click here: Upstate New York Man Charged With Beheading His Estranged Wife - NYTimes.com


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## irosie91 (May 1, 2013)

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> Honor killings are unlawful, your own article says that.




   yes---in muslim countries today----most do not allow honor murder---
     but the issue of honor mitigates <<  this is a remnant of times when 
     they were legal and it indicates a level of ideological approval.

     You credit all kinds of  "human rights"  organizations with being 
     absolutely accurate----- Turkey is known to have a very high  
     FEMALE SUICIDE RATE-----which human rights activists have   
     described as a cover story for prevalent  "HONOR" murders


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## irosie91 (May 1, 2013)

ForeverYoung436 said:


> irosie91 said:
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Its in some commentary or mishnah-----the thing is used as a cautionary 
tale -----girls should not take chances like   DINAH DID    and there is something 
---vague to me now---of them keeping her in a barrel ---either on the way back from 
or to  shechem-------to giver her the idea that she should be HIDDEN--or some 
weird thing like that.    The only people   Jacob seems to blame ---are his two 
idiot sons----levi and simon-------and reuben gets blamed for being an idiot 
too-----for trying to seduce someone  ------so  JUDAH---the fourth son gets to 
be named heir--------I like that speech----its actually humorous  ------jacob 
telling his three oldest sons what jerks they are.     Somehow LEVI  gets to be 
the ancestor of Moses    anyway         the levites win in the end.    As to 
DINAH---jacob is angry about the WHOLE EPISODE   -----an unnecessay battle 
with the people of shechem ----bothered him------so what has happened 
to his house now????      WE GOT NABLUS   

     thems that troubleth their own house eth----inherits  NABLUS


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## Coyote (May 2, 2013)

proudveteran06 said:


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Let me simplify, hypocrite.

Your previous claims (which are getting kind of confusing) are that honor killing is part of Islam, and a quote was given from the Quran to supposedly support it (striking a woman).  

My point is you can find similar quotes in the OT that even better support it.  My claim is it's the culture and it's been practiced in the ME by people of all religions within those cultures, as well as in other countries around the world.  

Most Jewish people are far removed from the culture that practices honor killing due to the diaspora - but there are still many Muslims (and Christians, Druze, etc) in those countries who are not.  Yet, Muslims in Indonesia - the country with the largest population of Muslims, rarely have honor killings and Hindus and Sikhs in areas India do.  The point is - religion has little to do with it.



> " Honor Killings" may be " against the law" but it is done , overlooked, and excused!



Ok, you're moving the goalposts by admitting it is against the law.

I agree - it is way overlooked, excused and the penalties horribly low, but that is not just in the Middle East or Muslim countries.  Look at India.  It's a serious problem but by focusing on it as a Muslim problem, you are ignoring the reality and "excusing" it in non-Muslim countries.



> SMALL EXAMPLE OF WHAT IS STARTING TO HAPPEN IN THIS COUNTRY!



Oh bullshit.  That's just fear mongering.  Honor killings are very rare in this country and what's more the Muslim community in the US is vocally unified in opposition to that crime.  Your article was from 2009 - not even very current.


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## proudveteran06 (May 2, 2013)

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   You're right. " Honor Killings" are very rare in this Country but until recently we haven't had them at all. Which Group?  Hint.... It's not the Hindus.  My post was just one example.

     I am not " moving the Goalposts" by admitting it's against the law   lol.  In " palestine" they declared they have no intention of making it illegal. ( Just one example)

   " Honor Killing" is a part of Islam just like some practices in the Catholic Church that are not written anywhere in some historical text. (Ex.  Not eating meat on Friday)


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## SherriMunnerlyn (May 2, 2013)

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Will you ever stop repeating this lie that honor killings are lawful in Palestine?  They are not. WILL you ever stop repeating this lie that honor killings are a part of Islam ? THEY ARE NOT. STOP LYING.


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## Hossfly (May 2, 2013)

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Last year there was a murder in one of the Arab villages, and eventually it was found out that the murder was an honor killing.  However, the article stated that the Israeli authorities prefer to stay out of these disputed because it has to do with their culture.


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## Hossfly (May 2, 2013)

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You're supposed to be a lawyer, Sherri.Then surely you get these updates from "The Jurist". They seem to differ from your "opinion", Perry Mason.


http://jurist.org/dateline/2012/06/abeer-hashayka-honor-killings.php


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## irosie91 (May 2, 2013)

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## Hossfly (May 2, 2013)

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What say you Sherri?


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## SherriMunnerlyn (May 3, 2013)

Hossfly said:


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WHAT article ? What incident?


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## SherriMunnerlyn (May 3, 2013)

Hossfly said:


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THEY support what I have been saying, honor killings are not unlawful.
THE article does not say honor killings are lawful. A few other points are made, the laws that apply in Palestinian Territories are Jordanian laws, carried over from the time when Jordan occupied the lands. All the so called Palestinian legislation is draft laws, which do not make honor killings lawful either.


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## SherriMunnerlyn (May 3, 2013)

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irosie91 said:


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## proudveteran06 (May 3, 2013)

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Honor Killings" are accepted in Islam and are happening in those Countries including Gaza!!! They are NOT prosecuted so they are LAWFUL !!!!! STOP LYING!!!!!!


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## SherriMunnerlyn (May 3, 2013)

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What I hate are the human rights abuses Israel carries out and every person who has a conscience hates that! And people.of conscience speak out against these human rights abuses as long as they continue.


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## Hossfly (May 3, 2013)

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There are no human rights abuses by Israel. You make things up. These many organizations that roll off your tongue such as NGO,ISM,HRO, UN and all those idiotic abbreviations are nothing more than a pack of Jew haters that you idolize.


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## Coyote (May 3, 2013)

*Posts have been removed. Take your off topic flaming to the appropriate rooms: Flame Zone or Badlands.*


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## SherriMunnerlyn (May 3, 2013)

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None of that is true and your sources do not back any of it up as true. Is 
Israel a Muslim country? THE thread began discussing a possible honor killing there. DO honor killings happen in Indonesia where the majority religion is Islam? The fact is honor killings happen in many places and it has nothing to do with Islam or countries being Muslim. ONE last point, countries are not a Religion, Islam or any other religion,  it is people who have religions and no nation has people all of one religion.


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## Coyote (May 3, 2013)

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If honor killing is "a part of Islam" why is it not practiced in the most populous Islamic country in the world?  You fail to address this over and over.

Secondly, *re-read your article*.  

Honor killing is AGAINST THE LAW in the Palestinian Territories.

In otherwords - it is already "outlawed".  The issue - if you read the article rather than go by the title, is the penalty for it.

Abbas had made a promise to amend the law to guarantee *maximum* penalties for honor killing which he has since back-pedaled on.

Abbas also suspended Article 340, which offers a pardon for murder if the perpetrator committed the crime on finding his wife in bed with another man (though apparently that pardon hasn't been used for ages in the courts so it doesn't mean as much as it appears).


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## irosie91 (May 3, 2013)

Coyote----your arguements against the fact that  "HONOR"  killings 
are far more prevalent in  MANY muslim population than MOST other 
populations ---are contrived.       A STRUGGLE to find a history of an 
"HONOR"  killing in the bible ----which is a HISTORY-- not a compendium 
of law----is silly     Islamic law is based on anything which muhummad 
DID.     Jewish law is not based on ANYTHING MOSES DID ---or  
ADAM DID.      Islamic scholars interpret  koranic law and jewish 
scholars interpret jewish law.     Islamic scholars have chosen to 
mitigate penalties against HONOR KILLERS in islamic lands---jewish 
scholars chose to stop executing ADULTERERS  thousands of years 
ago,     christians were still doing it a few hundred years ago but
also STOPPED     Greeks did it even after jews stopped---for women 
and her male lover and seem have done something like it ----
in the name of  ZORBA THE GREEK  
I have no idea what and when or still goes on in SICILY
muslims still do it  TODAY---openly----<<< in large muslim countries
<<<<<<  thems the facts  
 (if you want to insist that  execution of adulterers is the
 EPITOME OF HONOR KILLING)     
an interesting factoid is that there is an allusion in 
the KORAN  ---to the fact that jews argued against  executing 
adulterers     in the time of muhummad-----interestingly enough---
the allusion is historically correct.    That arguement began LONG 
before the  "CAST THE FIRST STONE"   parable   (attn sherri)

perhaps the discussion should center upon which legal systems 
mitigate murder based on   "PASSION"----and either term it 
MANSLAUGHTER   ----or penalize it very lightly---and which societies 
tend to HIDE IT    because of social approval    My sense is that 
lots of killing can go on in south east asia which is socially 
acceptableand in the HILLS    and in the far east------and in ANY
PLACE IN THE WORLD WHICH IS THE HILLS.    like Zorba the  
greek's hometown  and-----remote kurdish villages and maybe 
appalachia 

perhaps a more neutral topic would be the execution of "WITCHES"

jews did that thouands of years ago----but not as recently as SALEM 

it turns out the laws are on the books and occassionally enforced 
in  saudi arabia-------


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## Lipush (May 3, 2013)

I don't know if Honor killings are permitted in Islam or the Palestinian community, that should be an interesting discussion.

However, what is clear, is, that there is no real protest against that, in the Arab community.

I think this issue is not being dealt with correctly, in Israel.


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## Coyote (May 3, 2013)

Lipush said:


> I don't know if Honor killings are permitted in Islam or the Palestinian community, that should be an interesting discussion.
> 
> However, what is clear, is, that there is no real protest against that, in the Arab community.
> 
> I think this issue is not being dealt with correctly, in Israel.



There is increasing pressure to make changes, particularly after several high profile killings - but it's slow and it's going against an ingrained culture. It takes events like, for example, the shooting of the school girl in Pakistan to inflame a community enough to start agitating.  The same thing is happening in India, with the horrific rape.


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## Lipush (May 3, 2013)

The shooting of the school girl was not due to honor problem. It was pure Taliban lunacy. I'm not sure it's the same problem, even though both cultural issues maybe rooted in the same very general problem.


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## proudveteran06 (May 3, 2013)

SherriMunnerlyn said:


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  THEY ARE LAWFUL IN " palestine". THEY ARE AN ACCEPTED PART OF ISLAM!    NOTHING IS DONE ABOUT THEM , EXCUSES ARE MADE, AND THE WOMAN IS ALWAYS TO BLAME!   STOP LYING!!!!


Palestinian Mother Speaks Out About Daughter?s Honor Killing - Al-Monitor: the Pulse of the Middle East


Palestinian Mother Speaks Out 
 About Daughters Honor Killing 



Palestinian women attend a public rally in Gaza City in May 2012. (photo by REUTERS/Mohammed Salem)  









 Print    


 FONT SIZE   
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By:  Asmaa al-Ghoul for Al-Monitor Palestine Pulse  Posted on  March 20.


  &#1573;&#1602;&#1585;&#1571; &#1576;&#1575;&#1604;&#1604;&#1594;&#1577; &#1575;&#1604;&#1593;&#1585;&#1576;&#1610;&#1577; 



Hiyam, a 23-year-old Palestinian woman, was killed at the hands of her father and brother at dawn on March 8 under the pretext of a so-called honor killing. Her mother Souad, 44, spoke with Al-Monitor at the family's home in the Nuseirat refugee camp in the heart of the Gaza Strip. Looking gray with fatigue, and so worn out she could not even stand, Souad said, They wronged my daughter Hiyam. She was my eldest daughter and the sweetest of them all. May god avenge her father and brother. 


About This Article



Summary : 
Those who commit so-called honor crimes continue to receive light sentences in the Gaza Strip despite efforts to amend outdated laws in this regard, Asmaa al-Ghoul reports.
Original Title:
 Gazan Woman Killed in Suspected Honor Crime
Author:  Asmaa al-Ghoul
 Translated by: Sahar Ghoussoub

 Categories : Originals  Palestinian Authority   	 


The mother told Al-Monitor her daughter's story. I was visiting my parents, and I slept at their place. Around 3:00 a.m., I received a call from my eldest son, Adham, telling me to rush back home. I felt there was something very bad. When I arrived at home I found my daughter standing there in silence, Souad said, pointing to a corner in the house. Souad continued, Adham said that they had found our young neighbor Ahmed inside the house. I asked my daughter, and she said it was a thief jumping out of the window. They did not give her a chance to speak. My daughter was shy by nature. She did not even defend herself.

With her surviving children sitting around her, Souad's eyes filled with tears, when she added, I knew they were going to kill her. I screamed and cried, and then I dont remember anything except that I woke up in a closed room with my young children.


They wronged my daughter Hiyam. She was my eldest daughter and the sweetest of them all. May god avenge her father and brother.

Mohammed, Souads 13-year-old son, related what had happened next. My mother fell on the floor in the living room. When she fainted, we dragged her to the room and they shut the door. This was the last time we saw my sister Hiyam. There were neighbors and many men in the house, he said. According to the police and the family, the father and brother strangled Hiyam. The young man, Ahmed, was beaten and thrown from a high structure and presumed dead. Neighbors were asked to witness the act and reported it to the police.

Mohammed added, sadly, The police came too late. They arrived after one and a half hours. If they had come earlier, they would have saved my sister Hiyam.

Al-Monitor met with Ayman al-Batniji, the police spokesperson, in his office. Batniji phoned Raed Abu Hoichel, head of investigations in Gaza, to get the details of the crime. After their conversation, Batniji told Al-Monitor, The police arrived to the crime scene after receiving a call from the neighbors saying that there was a young man on the ground, covered in blood. The police came and arrested him, along with the [female] victims father and brother.

After about an hour, the neighbors called again to inform the police that the girls body was in the house. The police went to the home and took Hiyam's body to the hospital. It was later revealed that the father and his son had first strangled Hiyam with a rope, and when that failed to kill her, they used a double wire instead. Batniji confirmed that the father and son had been arrested for killing Hiyam, while the young neighbor who was beaten was being held in custody on charges of violation of privacy.

Souad, her son Mohammed and her other daughter, Haya, 12, were holding on to Hiyams diary, in which she had written that she wanted to go to a friends birthday party and to another friends engagement party, but that she could not. The mother explained that her daughter rarely left the house and that there had been nothing suspicious in her behavior. I remember that the day before she was killed, she asked me to get her a pad, so how can they accuse her of such a crime? the victims mother asked, indicating that her daughter had been menstruating when she was killed.




Above is just part of the article ! 
Read more: Palestinian Mother Speaks Out About Daughter?s Honor Killing - Al-Monitor: the Pulse of the Middle East


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## Coyote (May 3, 2013)

proudveteran06 said:


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She's not lying.

Honor killlings ARE NOT LAWFUL in Palestine.  They are against the law.  It's there in black and white.  The law may not be well enough enforced and the penalties inadequate but it IS against the law.  No one is making excuses - they are simply pointing out the FACTS.  Gees.

In that last article you printed:

_After about an hour, the neighbors called again to inform the police that the girl&#8217;s body was in the house. The police went to the home and took Hiyam's body to the hospital. It was later revealed that the father and his son had first strangled Hiyam with a rope, and when that failed to kill her, they used a double wire instead. *Batniji confirmed that the father and son had been arrested for killing Hiyam, while the young neighbor who was beaten was being held in custody on charges of violation of privacy.*_


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## proudveteran06 (May 3, 2013)

Coyote said:


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So what?  These " arrests" of those who commit " Honor Killings are relatively recent only because of the International Pressure put on them.  If they want to be seen as " civilized" to the outside world they have to act " civilized", don't they?    Next question would be; What jail sentence would they get?


   Jordan is supposed to be a ' civilized " Arab Country and even there until a few years ago is was 100% accepted!  They passed a law ; article 340 which stated husbands would no longer be EXONERATED for murdering unfaithful wives, but the " circumstances" would be considered " evidence" for mitigating his " defense" !!!!!  O.K. with that?  Of course you are !   " Honor Killings" are considered " just" even if the Husband, Father, Son, Brother SUSPECTS something!!!!  If a woman is raped, SHE must have done something to provoke it!!

    If Jews were doing this in Israel,  the Pro Palestinians would be handing out Candy !!!!


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## Coyote (May 3, 2013)

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You know.  You really are beginning to sound either stupid or desperate

Who cares if the arrests are "realtively recent" or "becuase of international pressure" (which, oddly, you support when it comes to that but not when it comes to Israel's human rights abuses).  The point is that honor killing IS ILLEGAL despite your repeated lies to the contrary.  It's NOT LEGAL.  Ok, do we understand that one simple fact?

Second issue:  I've repeatedly (how many times now?) said - that the law is not yet evenly enforced and the issue which Abbas is commenting on is NOT whether it is to be "outlawed" but whether maximum penalties shall be levied.  At the moment Abbas has back pedaled in deference to conservative religious pressure.  Ok - are we clear?

It IS illegal.

Maximum penalties are thus far NOT levied.

Those are the only actual facts.

As to the rest of it - if they want to be seen as civilized, YES - they need to get on the ball about this.  As does India.  As does a host of other countries.  Just like Israel needs to get on the ball about incarcerating juvaniles without access to parents or lawyers - for stone throwing.  Ok - do you GET IT that being civilized is complicated and not one sided?  I for one, absolutely agree that such things as honor killing and casual acceptance of rape in some societies and the acceptance of child abuse in the guise of law enforcement is NOT civilized behavior.



> /
> Jordan is supposed to be a ' civilized " Arab Country and even there until a few years ago is was 100% accepted!  They passed a law ; article 340 which stated husbands would no longer be EXONERATED for murdering unfaithful wives, but the " circumstances" would be considered " evidence" for mitigating his " defense" !!!!!  O.K. with that?  Of course you are !   " Honor Killings" are considered " just" even if the Husband, Father, Son, Brother SUSPECTS something!!!!  If a woman is raped, SHE must have done something to provoke it!!



Ok.  Well, first of all - do you have a link?  Second of all, Jordan sounds a lot like Brazil in the 1990's and, frankly - Jordan needs to get on the ball.  Eventually, it will.



> If Jews were doing this in Israel,  the Pro Palestinians would be handing out Candy !!!!



And we know that the Pro-Israeli's are already handing out candy for anything that bashes the Palestinians.

Do you think maybe, just once, you can see beyond a pro-Israeli/anti-Palesinian narrative and view the real issues?  Like, world wide violence to women?  Or do you ONLY care when it's a Muslim issue?


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## irosie91 (May 3, 2013)

coyote---you have evidence of jews  "handing out candy"   because 
of disasters which befall  "palestinians"   ?    why would you throw 
in a gratuitous lie?     its silly


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## toastman (May 3, 2013)

Coyote said:


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Care to elaborate on the bold ?
As for your last statement, it's funny that you accuse him of solely applying his comments to Muslims, when in reality it is the pro - Palestinians who are solely focusing their criticism and hate on the issues concerning Israel / Palestine conflict, and claiming Israel is committing atrocities, while turning a blind eye to the REAL issues of the Middle East and the ACTUAL countries who are committing atrocities . Why?
Because the Joooos aren't involved.


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## irosie91 (May 3, 2013)

from   ??? 
"You know. You really are beginning to sound either stupid or desperate
Who cares if the arrests are "realtively recent" or "becuase of international 
pressure" 
.............................................
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
The point is that honor killing IS ILLEGAL despite your repeated lies to the 
contrary. It's NOT LEGAL. Ok, do we understand that one simple fact?


some time ago--  I  (irose)  was very roundly critisized for 
saying   "who cares" ?    in reference to honor killings and 
other acts of abuse upon women by muslims.    ----I am 
going to be brave and say it again  ----WHO CARES?---
but I have a reason------I live in the USA and had some--
infrequent, minor involvement with the problem -----in which
 I was somehing like a consultant.    
Regarding this issue----the people who have to be the  very 
FIRST TO CARE-----are the women themselves -----for the 
record----muslim women are under marked pressure to 
conform to the demands of their families---and far more 
so their husbands and even  their in-laws.
The sad reality is that in the issue of husband,  in law
---- wife relationship---the people who seem most 
adamant about a woman conforming to her husband's 
demands----are HER OWN MOTHER and BROTHERS. 
My sense is that the MOTHER is key---if a girl's mother 
does not care to protect her----based on social pressures,
intervention becomes very difficult.    I believe that the 
problem will self-correct when muslim mothers get more 
"on the side"  of their daughters.   All MOTHERS  have 
power in a family------look at the power  UM-2boysbostoni 
had over her sons


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## proudveteran06 (May 4, 2013)

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In the Muslim Religion " Honor Killings " for the most part are overlooked. It is not just "violence" against women . The fact that they may be finally forced to confront this and change their laws just proves that it is legal !!! Tell us please why men are still offered some " latitude" when it comes to " Honor Killings "


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## SherriMunnerlyn (May 4, 2013)

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HONOR KILLINGS occur all over the world and are not overlooked at all, where the practice occurs people oppose it and try to stop it. IN the Jewish world,  baby killing and killing of civilians gets overlooked. LOOK at those 1500 children your Klansmen in Israel killed since 2000. PROUD BABY KILLERS! What can be lower then this deliberate Jewish killing of nonJewish children? WHAT can be more barbaric? AND why does that not bother you?


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## SherriMunnerlyn (May 4, 2013)

THE argument they should just change their laws is funny. The Palestinians live under Occupation. THEY are not free to govern themselves. THE bigoted liar who makes this argument should demand Israel end her Occupation before she accuses Palestinians of doing anything with respect to their laws.


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## SherriMunnerlyn (May 4, 2013)

The thread started out about the killing of a mother  and speculation it might be an honor killing. AS another poster pointed out, it might be a killing by an Israeli  Jew of this mother. We really do not know much about this case at all. It certainly does not prove anything whatsoever about honor killings.


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## Muskie (May 4, 2013)

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> The thread started out about the killing of a mother  and speculation it might be an honor killing. AS another poster pointed out, it might be a killing by an Israeli of this mother. We really do not know much about this case at all. It certainly does not prove anything whatsoever about honor killings.



Are you really denying that Muslims do not partake in Honor Killings?? 
Where do you read your news from Sherri??
I am not saying that ALL Muslims do so, but every article that I've read about honor killings involved Muslims doing so to honor their 'God'.


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## irosie91 (May 4, 2013)

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> The thread started out about the killing of a mother  and speculation it might be an honor killing. AS another poster pointed out, it might be a killing by an Israeli of this mother. We really do not know much about this case at all. It certainly does not prove anything whatsoever about honor killings.




****CONGRATULATIONS SHERRI******   on your first logical post----
the killing could have been  by anyone---     an Israeli, an isa-respecter, 
or some unaligned person      The incident did touch off a discussion 
about  honor killing----but regarding THIS particular killing we have 
insufficient information just as we often have insufficient information 
regarding crime.   ----of course sherri should keep that fact in mind 
----consistently

The statement  "this particular killing does not prove anything 
 whatsoever about honor killing"---,<<< a first for sherri!!!!!!
 a true statement.

 There is hope for you yet,,    sherri


Now that we did veer into a discussion about  "honor killing"------
now HONOR KILLING is the subject.    Try to adapt sherri


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## SherriMunnerlyn (May 4, 2013)

Muskie said:


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> > The thread started out about the killing of a mother  and speculation it might be an honor killing. AS another poster pointed out, it might be a killing by an Israeli of this mother. We really do not know much about this case at all. It certainly does not prove anything whatsoever about honor killings.
> ...



PEOPLE commit honor killings all over the world and the practice predated Islam. I do not exist to demonize and hate Muslims , that is not my purposr for being created as it appears to be yours. YOU need to read a little more, Your post shows a lack of knowledge about honor killings.


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## irosie91 (May 4, 2013)

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Islam has been around for 1400 years-----most stuff PREDATES it----
today---"honor killings"    in the USA --of girls and women---are an 
islamic issue------

Pita predates  islam too----but that fact does not stop crazed 
islamicists from resenting the fact that jews eat it    Pita may--
possible predate jews-----I don't know---nor do I care----
the  PREDATING arguement is idiotic


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## Hossfly (May 4, 2013)

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It is quite obvious, Frau Sherri, that your purpose in life is to demonize and hate Jews.  If this was not the case, you would be on other forums condemning what was happening to other people in places like the Middle East, Southeast Asia, and Africa.  Instead you appear to be all over the Internet just bashing the Jews and Israel.  Would it really be that much trouble for you to take time out from this and start condemning what is happening to many innocent people by your friends?


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## SherriMunnerlyn (May 5, 2013)

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Who appointed you my Shepherd? I have been cautioned to be wary of wolves in sheeps clothing such as yourself.  I take those warnings seriously.


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## Intense (May 5, 2013)

*Thread Cleaned. Please keep on Topic.*


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## proudveteran06 (May 5, 2013)

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  HONOR KILLINGS ARE THE MUSLIM WAY OF LIFE !!  Do other cultures do it?  Of course.  However, it PRIMARILY HAPPENS IN THEIR CULTURE!  Those 1500 " children" that were killed? Prove that it was " deliberate"  You mean the " religion" that is responsible for the DELIBERATE killing of Christians?  If it were the other way around you and the rest of those Barbarians in Gaza and the W.Bank 
would be handing out Candy; that's why!

    All those Barbarians had to do is recognize Israel's right to exist and stop firing Rockets after Israel left Gaza.  Instead, they IMMEDIATELY increased their Rocket fire.

    As previously stated, I will celebrate the Death of every Palestinian the way you CELEBRATE the Murder of the Fogel Family including the decapitation of their infant !


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## Hossfly (May 5, 2013)

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Who appointed you as the spokeswoman for Mr. Lucifer?  We have been warned about people like you, and that is why so much of your nonsense goes in one ear and out the other, so to speak.


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## irosie91 (May 5, 2013)

Sherri has a close relationship with both   Mr Lucifer and 
Mr  Isa.     Both speak to her in arabic----and ---seem to 
provide an address located in a place they call  
"palestine'     Since none of the rest of us are acquainted 
with either   Mr Isa or Mr Lucifer----we have no choice but 
to consider her to be the sole source.


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## Coyote (May 5, 2013)

toastman said:


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Yes.  It's in response to PV's retarded post that Palestinians would be handing out candy.



> As for your last statement, it's funny that you accuse him of solely applying his comments to Muslims, when in reality it is the pro - Palestinians who are solely focusing their criticism and hate on the issues concerning Israel / Palestine conflict, and claiming Israel is committing atrocities, while turning a blind eye to the REAL issues of the Middle East and the ACTUAL countries who are committing atrocities . Why?



Toast, I don't know what you are criticizing me about. I've repeated over and over that honor killing and by extension a general acceptance of violence towards women are a widespread problem.  I have not denied it is a serious problem in the ME as well as in some other countries.

I've shown facts supporting that it is a cultural problem, not a done in the name of religion.

The discussion was about honor killing - what BLIND eye I am I turning?  Unlike some - I'm sticking to the facts rather than demonizing.



> Because the Joooos aren't involved.



What the fuck does that have to do with it?  Get off the victim bandwagon with the anti-semitic references,  and look at the issues being discussed rather than knee jerking in defense of one side!


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## Coyote (May 5, 2013)

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In the Muslim religion or in certain Muslim cultures?  Please explain to me why the most populous Muslim country in the world does not engage in it?  Please explain to me why India, not dominant Muslim engages in it (Hindu's and Sikhs as well as it's Muslim minority).

I agree it is a significant problem - but it is not a religious problem, it's a cultural problem and it needs to be address.

As to why men are offered latitude?  Because it's a culture still entrenched in a patriarchal mentality where women's chastity and bodies are the property of husbands, fathers and brothers.  It's the same culture that prefers male children and kills unwanted female infants; that feels it's ok to rape a woman of lower castes or blame the woman for rape.


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## Coyote (May 5, 2013)

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Why should the deaths of ANY innocents be celebrated?


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## proudveteran06 (May 5, 2013)

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  You are the Retard who denies the Palestinians woud be handing out Candy.  They have named streets after SUICIDE BOMBERS!  What does that tell you; You Jerk Off??

   " Honor Killing" is MORE then " violence against women".  You can deny this all you want; It's not going to change facts  It IS done in the name of " religion"


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## Coyote (May 5, 2013)

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Ya, and Israel commemorates the King David Hotel Bombing each year (or at least one city there does) - so what?  Their old terrorists become political leaders.  There's not friggin' difference.  Israel considers their personal terrorists to be freedom fighters and Palestine considers their personal terrorists to be freedom fighters. 



> " Honor Killing" is MORE then " violence against women".  You can deny this all you want; It's not going to change facts  It IS done in the name of " religion"



Well, since you have yet to show it is done in the name of religion and you steadfastly refuse to answer the question of why the most populous Muslim nation, amongst others do not engage in it or why non-Muslim cultures engage in it then I'll continue to call your bigoted bullshit exactly what it is: bigoted bullshit.

Aside from that - Honor Killing is the extreme end of the spectrum that is culturally accepted violence towards women.  I, frankly, do not see how it is worse than female infanticide or a brutal gang rape that leaves a young woman in a coma and finally death.  It's all coming from the same source - you just refuse to see it because you want to see Islam as the source of all evil and if it's not Muslims doing it, you don't give a shit.


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## Hossfly (May 5, 2013)

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I don't think a person talking about honor killings among Muslims is actually bigoted.  I think the person is just stating a fact.  There have been plenty of articles about honor killings, and we have seen how they are now happening in the U.S. and Europe.  The sad thing is that young women in the prime of their lives are murdered by a member of their family because of a supposed stain they put on their families, such as the daughter becoming too Westernized or the daughter is interested in someone who is not of the same religion.  Being that you had brought up Hindus, I thought this article was interesting.

Hindu vs. Muslim Honor Killings :: The Phyllis Chesler Organization


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## irosie91 (May 6, 2013)

good article-----there was one point----softly made ---about honor 
killings amongst hindus being more common in NORTHERN parts 
of india---than in the south.    It may be an issue of proximity----
my sense which is based on impression regarding people I have 
known from the Indian subcontinent---is that the northern part 
is more influenced by islamic more's than is the southern part 
of India------and that charateristic seems to me to be true 
even of southern muslims----like those who came from mumbai.

Another impression I have on the caste issue---is an issue that 
does not get imported to the US as so serious a problem outside 
of India-----that is the marriagability of the family members and 
the offspring of the intercaste couple-----the issue seems to 
become moot in the USA ----even for apologists for the caste and 
arranged marriage system in INDIA-----ie Indian hindus in the USA--
among those I have known---even if they defend the system in 
India and are attached to the religion----do not seem to be all 
that attached to restrictions of the caste system or social systems 
to the point that they would try to replicate it in the USA for 
their own children------although importing hindu spouses 
from India----does seem to be a concept  which some 
hindu mothers in the USA  do harbor   (a colleague of mine---
INSISTED  she would for her baby daughter------that was more 
than 30 years ago-----anyone care to guess how that one 
turned out?----no one was killed----or even got angry ---
and the groom was not only not of the same caste----he 
is not even Indian or remotely hindu<<just one example--OK?)


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## Coyote (May 6, 2013)

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Talking about it?  No.

But when you move on to labeling it as something specifically supported by that religion, and when you likewise ignore the fact that honor killing occurs frequently outside of the Muslim religion - then yes.  It begins to look like bigoted fear mongering.



> I think the person is just stating a fact.



Depends.  That same person ignores that honor killing does not occur in all Muslim countries and does occur in non-Muslim populations of those countries.

Why are those facts ignored?  I'll tell you.  The real concern is Islam, not Honor Killing.



> There have been plenty of articles about honor killings, and we have seen how they are now happening in the U.S. and Europe.


]

Actually - they are very very rare in western countries.  They are sensational and brutal and go against our values so they appear in the media (blood, gore, sex sells) but they are still very rare and mainly among recent immigrants.  In addition, some of them are less honor killings than an extension of domestic violence.

From Wikipedia:


> Canada
> 
> A 2007 study by Dr. Amin Muhammad and Dr. Sujay Patel of Memorial University, Canada, investigated how the practice of honor killings has been brought to Canada. The report explained that "*[w]hen people come and settle in Canada they can bring their traditions and forcefully follow them. In some cultures, people feel some boundaries are never to be crossed, and if someone would violate those practices or go against it, then killing is justified to them." The report noted that "In different cultures, they can get away without being punishedthe courts actually sanction them under religious contexts"*. The report also said that the people who commit these crimes *are usually mentally ill*, and that the mental health aspect is often ignored by Western observers because of a lack of understanding of the insufficiently developed state of mental healthcare in developing countries in which honor killings are prevalent.[67]
> 
> ...



Wikipedia also has this, referencing the author who's article you linked:



> Honor killing in the United States
> 
> A 2009 article by Phyllis Chesler in Middle East Quarterly[72] argues that the United States is far behind Europe in acknowledging that honor killings are a special form of domestic violence, requiring special training and special programs to protect the young women and girls most likely to be the victim of such practices. The article suggests that the fear of being labeled "culturally insensitive" often prevents government officials in the United States and the media from identifying and accurately reporting these incidents as "honor killings" when they occur. Failing to accurately describe the problem makes it more difficult to develop public policies to address it.
> 
> The article reports that, although there are not many cases of honor killings within the United States, the overwhelming majority of honor killings are perpetrated by Muslims against Muslims (90% of honor killings known to have taken place in Europe and the United States from 1998 to 2008).[72] *In these documented cases the victims were murdered because they were believed to have acted in a way against the religion of the family.* In every case, perpetrators view their victims as violating rules of religious conduct and act without remorse.[72]



Now, the thing is - the Canadian article points out that it's the culture that is the problem, and that makes sense.  Your author, who is quoted here - wrote an excellent article and makes some good points in her conclusion - however, there is one glaring point:  her research was with Hindu's in India and Muslims in Pakistan and dealt with one immigrant group: Pakistani's.  I think a lot of what she says makes sense - but, it's also very much culture within a fundamentalist Islamic outlook.



> Although Hindu honor killing is a gruesome and sordid affair, it differs in many important respects from honor killing in neighboring Pakistan and other Muslim countries. Indian Hindus murder men for honor more often than do Pakistani Muslims, and they murder for reasons mainly related to concerns about caste purity.
> 
> Perhaps the most striking characteristic of Hindu honor killings is the fact that Indians abandon the horrific practice when they migrate to the West whereas many Pakistani Muslims carry it with them. Part of the explanation may lie in their different patterns of acculturation upon immigrating to the West. Young Hindus in the West are no less prone to violate traditional social codes than young Muslims, and their parents may be no less furious when they do, but Hindu families in the West do not feel the same degree of public humiliation and shame as they might experience back in India. They are eager to preserve their cultural identity but not at the expense of alienating their adoptive communities. The absence of dreaded khap panchayats no doubt mitigates the consequences of dishonor.
> 
> ...




My argument is culture for the following reasons:
- there is nothing specific in the religion endorsing or supporting honor killing (certainly no more than Judaism or Christianity).
- similar cultures in India for example, practice it and non-Muslim minorities in Muslim ME countries practice it.
- it is rare (if at all) in Indonesia - the most heavily populated muslim nation, it's non-existent in non-immigrant western muslim communities.


So why do people make it about a religion than about the cultural values of those countries and their immigrants?  There is a relation between religion and culture, but it has more to do with how that culture chooses to interpret that religion.  Some will say it's PC refusing to acknowledge "reality" - but I think, in light of the above inconsistencies - it's bigotry refusing to entertain the idea that Islam is not the source of all evil.



> The sad thing is that young women in the prime of their lives are murdered by a member of their family because of a supposed stain they put on their families, such as the daughter becoming too Westernized or the daughter is interested in someone who is not of the same religion.  Being that you had brought up Hindus, I thought this article was interesting.
> 
> Hindu vs. Muslim Honor Killings :: The Phyllis Chesler Organization



To me - the reason for the killing is less important then the murder of innocent girls and women.  It's gruesome and wrong regardless of whether it's "family honor", caste differences, socially accepted rape or machismo "crimes of passion" - all of which are often overlooked in societies that condone or ignore violence against women.  When people try to make a religion a primary culprit in these happenings, it tells me they don't care as much when it happens outside of the Islam.  It's kind of like your frequent argument against Sherri:  ....why don't you care when xyz outrages are being purpretrated against qrt in lmno.


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## Hossfly (May 6, 2013)

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You can go on and on about this forever, Coyote, but the fact remains that most of the honor killings are committed by people who are Muslims.  I just hope that they don't bring this custom of honor killings here to the U.S. on a regular basis.  We all know that people have killed their children here for one reason or another (usually because the person has been mentally deranged), but no one except those giving a pass to Islamic culture and customs, will deny that honor killings with regard to putting a stain on the family name are mainly prevalent in Muslim societies.  I heard that the UN has a group of women meeting who are discussing violence against women, and it is a shame that you don't live in New York where you can attend these meetings.


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## Coyote (May 6, 2013)

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It's a shame you can't see the problem beyond the lense of Islam or the irony of labeling non-Muslim killings usually the act of a "deranged mind" and implying that those honor killings done by Muslims are not.

Unlike you, Hoss - I do not see it as a Muslim problem but a serious problem of violence against women that spans cultures and religions and unlike YOU - I don't care what religion fosters the violence towards innocent women - I only care that it be addressed.  If you call it a "free-pass", then what, pray tell do you call your general indifference (or perhaps it's a free pass) to non-Islamic violence towards women?


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## Hossfly (May 6, 2013)

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I am not indifferent or giving free passes. Just remarking on what I see the most. 99% of the time it's done by you-know-who.


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## Coyote (May 6, 2013)

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I'm not giving free passes either Hoss.  I'm simply noting the role culture plays over religion and putting the emphasis and blame squarely where it belongs.  We don't need more hate mongering.


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## SherriMunnerlyn (May 6, 2013)

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We have over 8000 Palestinians killed by Israel, most of them civilans and many women were killed. I never heard a word of criticism from you over any of those killings of Arab women by Zionists.


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## SherriMunnerlyn (May 6, 2013)

I read a real news story that was heartbreaking about.an honor killing  and even went back and found it and reread it a few days ago and I did not start a thread on it because I knew it would become all about demonizing Muslims.  And that takes us nowhere. In one of Arthur Gishes books, he mentions a woman in At TUWANI  who was trying to start an organization addressing abuses against women. And the truth is it is with women like her who join with others to address the human rights abuses they face as women, that changes will come about.


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## freedombecki (May 6, 2013)

Coyote said:


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 Coyote, his concern is mine: honor killings are required in some sects of Islam.

Here, honor killings will only be against the law if we refuse to adopt "Sharia Law" which in a nutshell amounts to "you have to leave me alone because I am a religious person."

It is against our Constitution to make one set of laws for one group and another set of laws for another--so far.

When that unequal circumstances changes back, it will favor Islam, and womens', progress here is no more. Did you read the International headlines this morning? Pakistan removed their womens' voting due to Islamic law.

The writing is on the wall should we ever, ever let our guard down and accept different laws for different people rather than the Constitution.


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## Coyote (May 6, 2013)

freedombecki said:


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What sects of Islam "require" it and where is it written?



> Here, honor killings will only be against the law if we refuse to adopt "Sharia Law" which in a nutshell amounts to "you have to leave me alone because I am a religious person."



Honor killings are not part of Sharia.



> It is against our Constitution to make one set of laws for one group and another set of laws for another--so far.



Sort of but not totally true.

Religious preferences have been used in voluntarily settling disputes related to marriage, inheritance, divorce and certain types of contracts and not just Islam.  The thing is - it never trumps US or State law so it's not making "one set of laws" or some and another for others - or at least not any more than voluntarily agreeing using Catholic moderators to settle marital disputes in a form of "binding arbritation" rather than a divorce court.

It's can also used in determining disputes over contracts (like marriage or divorce or inheritance) that originated outside the US if the country it originated in used Sharia.

Sharia is not this big bogeyman people want to make it out to be - it's pretty diverse in the manner in which it's interpreted and much of it involves civil matters - from handling money and contracts, divorce, marriage, inheritance etc.  It's not all or even mostly chopping off hands and stoning adulterers and homosexuals (which, by the way is Biblical law as well).



> When that unequal circumstances changes back, it will favor Islam, and womens', progress here is no more. Did you read the International headlines this morning? Pakistan removed their womens' voting due to Islamic law.



Pakistan is not the US and, like I said - if Christians (like the Dominionists) haven't been able to force their brand of religious law on us in 200 years why on earth do people think Muslims could?



> The writing is on the wall should we ever, ever let our guard down and accept different laws for different people rather than the Constitution.



We've used different laws for different people voluntarily for centuries with no issue, in the civil code - the Amish, Jews, Catholics, Muslims and assorted other sects have made use of religious courts or law, in civil matters where both parties are willing.  Criminal law is a different matter.


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## Hossfly (May 6, 2013)

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Well I think it is a shame that you can't see that is mainly done by Muslims.  it appears that you want to give the Muslims a pass when it comes to this.  I think all of us on this forum realize that there is violence against women in all parts of the world, but I also think that those who aren't trying to give a pass to the main perpetrators of honor killings realize that most of the honor killings are done by Muslims.  I realize that some honor killings are done by people with deranged minds, but I don't think the majority are, especially if there are more than one family member involved in killing a female in the family.  Tell you what, Coyote, since you appear to think that honor killings are very common in the non Muslim world, why not give us some statistics of the honor killings among the different religions.  If there are no statistics available, I am sure you can show us articles about honor killings committed by the different religions in this world.


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## Coyote (May 6, 2013)

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I don't give anyone a "free pass".



> I think all of us on this forum realize that there is violence against women in all parts of the world, but I also think that those who aren't trying to give a pass to the main perpetrators of honor killings realize that most of the honor killings are done by Muslims.



You certainly like to give your own side a lot of credit while accusing the other side of giving a "free pass".  *However, kind of like Sherri posting about Jews...you only ever seem to post concern about it when it's Muslims doing it.
*


> I realize that some honor killings are done by people with deranged minds, but I don't think the majority are, especially if there are more than one family member involved in killing a female in the family.



I agree, I don't think the majority of them are.  But - while you say they are "very common" in the Muslim world, they are not common throughout the Muslim world, as I've repeatedly pointed out.  In addition - in those Middle Eastern/Asian countries where they are common - they are common to all the religions there.

Over and over, you ignore that.  So is it part of the "religion" or part of the "culture"?



> Tell you what, Coyote, since you appear to think that honor killings are very common in the non Muslim world, why not give us some statistics of the honor killings among the different religions.  If there are no statistics available, I am sure you can show us articles about honor killings committed by the different religions in this world.



Actually, I didn't say they are "very common" in the non Muslim world.  I said they are not unique to the Muslim world nor are they common to the entire Muslim world (as I've said over and over and over).  I've already posted references to where honor killings have been committed in India, among Hindus and Sikhs as well as Muslims.  I posted a link where a Christian man in a Middle Eastern country also committed an honor killing.  I'm not going to repeat it.


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## Hossfly (May 6, 2013)

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Let face it, Coyote, you want to give a pass to the many honor killings committed by Muslims by trying to bring up other groups where you don't find the prevalence of honor killings like one does in the Muslim community.   Since you are so into the subject of honor killings, I suggest that you contact Professor Phyllis Chesler on her Facebook page.  Since she has been studying this subject for a long time, you can tell her your thoughts and she will tell you hers.  This way you can get to the nitty gritty of the subject of honor killings.


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## Coyote (May 7, 2013)

Hossfly said:


> Let face it, Coyote, you want to give a pass to the many honor killings committed by Muslims by trying to bring up other groups where you don't find the prevalence of honor killings like one does in the Muslim community.



Kind of like you give a free pass to those non-Muslim groups that engage in honor killings? 

I prefer to view the big picture.

The prevalence of honor killing (and disfigurement and assault) are high in India.  I choose not to ignore that.

I also choose not to ignore the fact that the most populous Muslim country in the world rarely has honor killings or the fact that other religions within those ME Muslim countries engage in honor killings.  Such messy facts - they complicate things don't they?



> Since you are so into the subject of honor killings, I suggest that you contact Professor Phyllis Chesler on her Facebook page.  Since she has been studying this subject for a long time, you can tell her your thoughts and she will tell you hers.  This way you can get to the nitty gritty of the subject of honor killings.



Your suggestion is noted and discarded. Her article was an excellent read, but there are many people who have studied honor killings and are considered expert and material is freely available on the internet.  Why limit yourself to only ONE person's opinion?


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## Hossfly (May 7, 2013)

Coyote said:


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> ...


Why, Coyote, since you seem to be the expert here on honor killings, I would think you would enjoy the chance of debating this professor who has studied the violence against women (including honor killings) for a very long time.  Why pass up a good opportunity in having a debate with someone on a subject in which you are apparently interested.  As for taking one person's opinion, maybe some of the viewers should just discard yours as others can discard my opinion.  Isn't that great that the viewers have the prerogative to discard anyone's opinion?


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## Coyote (May 7, 2013)

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Well Hoss....where have I ever claimed or implied that I am an "expert" on honor killings?  I merely stated that there are multiple sources of information, from experts, freely available on the web and I avail myselves of them.  Isn't it better not to put your all your eggs in one expert?



> Why pass up a good opportunity in having a debate with someone on a subject in which you are apparently interested.



hmmm....interesting idea.  Why don't you try it and let me know how it goes?



> As for taking one person's opinion, maybe some of the viewers should just discard yours as others can discard my opinion.  *Isn't that great that the viewers have the prerogative to discard anyone's opinion?*



Absolutely - in fact, why do you feel the need to state the obvious?  On this we can agree.

Her concluding paragraph makes some very interesting points:

_While it is alarming that there are *so many honor killings in India and Pakistan*, there may yet be cause for hope. Every honor killing begins with a rebellion* against tribalism and patriarchy&#8212;or with a fear that tribal and patriarchal values are under attack*. Many of the victims in our study were people who believed that they could push traditional boundaries, that they could get away with asserting their rights. They were wrong, and they paid the ultimate price for that mistake, but the key is that they tried. More rebels will follow._


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## freedombecki (May 7, 2013)

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Sorry, but I've looked at Europe. When the % gets up to 20%, things change. Demands are made and never withdrawn. Homicide bombings start if demands aren't met. It's messy. And it all started with a sob story about of all things, other Muslims.

Don't be naïve. If you are, you lose, and if you have them, your children and progeny will lose their own family roots on account of this planned takeover of the world. Those who do not acquiesce pay the price.

It happened already in Germany in the 1930s. Fast-talking Haj Amin al-Husseini talked Hitler into hustling more Jews through the poisoned shower centers to eliminate all Europe's jews in less time than the war was to have taken. Here's a link that verifies Hitler's contentment with simply deporting Jews before he met al-Husseini: Amin Al Husseini: Father of Jihad, Al Qaeda, Arafat, Saddam Hussein and the Muslim Brotherhood

"Murder them all" ~ Haj Amin al-Husseini Nov. 29, 1947 ~ conflict_2

Here is a macabre catalogue of holocaust death pictures, which the Germans kept in files and now exists online: holocaust pictures of dead bodies - Bing Images

The Grand Mufti of Jerusalem in WWII: "Kill them all."


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## Hossfly (May 7, 2013)

SherriMunnerlyn said:


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I have posted this before but it's still a good read.


Abbas aide: No plans to outlaw 'honor killing' | Maan News Agency

If they don't plan to outlaw the killings then the killings are lawful, wouldn't you say, Perry Mason?


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## Coyote (May 7, 2013)

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I'm not naive.  I'm looking at long-standing Muslim populations in western countries and I'm looking at the kind of rhetoric today that closely resembles the anti-semitic rhetoric of the 1930's - only it's directed at Muslims.  The Nazi's were Christians.  Did you know that? The Pope, at the time, was complicit. The Nazi's killed a lot of Jews.  That is something worth remembering when you want to start saddling groups of people with generational guilt and hate.

One interesting article on Muslim integration that put to lie some of the stereotypes being promoted:

Studying Muslim integration in Europe | Dalia Mogahed | Comment is free | guardian.co.uk


> ...However, the recent Gallup study paints a very different picture. While Muslims in three European countries are indeed highly religious and socially conservative, this neither leads to a sympathy for terrorist acts, a desire to isolate nor a lack of national loyalty....


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## irosie91 (May 7, 2013)

Coyote---here is a surprise for you----I actually agree that the  'FEAR OF SHARIAH" 
in the USA  is silly.   If consenting muslim adults want to go to a shariah court for 
their civil matters----fine with me----but your description of that system  as benign 
for people stuck with it-----ie muslims in shariah adherent countries and---non muslims 
stuck with it-----even though it is VARIABLY imposed----is always bad---women 
and non muslims are always in jeapordy at the very least----potentially.   As for muslim 
women in the USA----if the shariah courts do not adapt---it seems to me---over time 
the women will force the issue.-----HOWEVER....  if shariah law is  in any way  
ENDORSED in the USA----keep in mind that some people will take that to mean 
KORANIC LAW got a boost to the point of being acceptable.     Right now the  
KORANIC SCHOLARS  of   al azhar----have determined that ---for the sunnis of the 
world-----killing hindus and jews is----LEGAL at least ---sorta.   and rape---well---
that too.    The arguement for apologists is   "islamic law requires muslims to follow 
the law of the land"----is just not good enough for me----for real reasons----events I 
have seen in the USA


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## Coyote (May 7, 2013)

irosie91 said:


> Coyote---here is a surprise for you----I actually agree that the  'FEAR OF SHARIAH"
> in the USA  is silly.   If consenting muslim adults want to go to a shariah court for
> their civil matters----fine with me----*but your description of that system  as benign
> for people stuck with it-----ie muslims in shariah adherent countries and---non muslims
> ...



Actually, Rosie, I don't think it is benign necessarily.  Personally, I'm for 100% secular law and 100% seperation of church and state.  Some Muslim countries only use Sharia for civil law (which is pretty much benign) but criminal law is under a different code.  Other countries use Sharia - to varying degrees, with varying levels of interpetration in criminal codes.  Some countries have laws on the books, like our "blue laws" that are hold overs and no longer enforced while some strictly enforce even blasphemy laws.

As far as killing Jews and Hindus being "legal" - that's highly debatable and I don't know of any country where it is not treated as murder.  Rape - in many of those countries and in many non-muslim countries is still treated as the woman's fault and shame and seldom fully prosecuted.


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## Hossfly (May 7, 2013)

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Yes, she appears to be a very intelligent woman who has studied the issue regarding violence against woman.  I thought a person like you, being a woman,  would enjoy a give and take with her since you seem to have different views of honor killings prevalent in the Muslim community, whether it is tribal or not.  It seems strange that a young woman would be murdered by her family if she looks at a man not of that family even in places like Europe.  Do they bring their tribal customs to Europe?  By the way, why not ask her what she thinks about the female circumcision in Muslim society.  I read articles that even in the U.S., they are doing this


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## Coyote (May 7, 2013)

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Yes.  One of many 



> *I thought a person like you, being a woman,  would enjoy a give and take with her* since you seem to have different views of honor killings prevalent in the Muslim community, whether it is tribal or not.



No you didn't 



> It seems strange that a young woman would be murdered by her family if she looks at a man not of that family even in places like Europe.



Why does it seem strange?  Immigrants often bring certain customs with them.  The fact that it is still  RARE among immigrants is testimony that that is one of the customs not often brought along.



> Do they bring their tribal customs to Europe?
> By the way, why not ask her what she thinks about the female circumcision in Muslim society.  I read articles that even in the U.S., they are doing this



I wonder why honor killings are so rare in the most populous Muslim nation in the world?

I wonder why ME and Pakistani Christians, Druze and other minorities practice honor killings too?

I wonder why female mutilation occurs in Christian African countries?  

I wonder why female mutilation is rare in western muslims?

Go figure.  

Big mysteries here my friend


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## irosie91 (May 7, 2013)

Coyote said:


> Why does it seem strange?  Immigrants often bring certain customs with them.  The fact that it is still  RARE among immigrants is testimony that that is one of the customs not often brought along.




  .......in view of the way hormones run----it seems strange to me that in ANY 
  culture a girl  will be killed for looking at a boy----even if doing so is 
  very much ----condemned in the culture.    I get my information about muslims 
  of the  indian subcontinent from muslims of the indian subcontinent----in fact 
  the first muslim I know as a kid was pakistani----he assured me that his 
  sister could never take a walk with a boy----whilst the two of use were walking 
  together----we were both 14 and simply both doing a volunteer thing at the same 
  place     I was horrified----It never occured to me that the little stroll was a 
  "boy/girl thing"-----I grew up----other pakistanis I knew told me that as children--
  if a brother's friend came to the house for a visit---the girls of the family VANISHED 
  to the backrooms -----however---I also learned from HINDU friends---that girls 
  were afforded separate facilities everywhere----from park benches to train cars 
  in India------MINGLING OF THE SEXES there is simply  "NOT DONE"---on the other 
  hand-----I also learned from Hindu friends. indian literature (short stories by hindus) 
  and  BOLLYWOOD  that surreptitious glances are prized by hindus.   From 
  hindus  in the USA----I learned---its the boys who are timid----not the girls and
  the girls so not seem COMPELLED to VANISH



> Do they bring their tribal customs to Europe?
> By the way, why not ask her what she thinks about the female circumcision in Muslim society.  I read articles that even in the U.S., they are doing this
> 
> I wonder why honor killings are so rare in the most populous Muslim nation in the world?



     Easy---because it used to be buddhist/hindu----it is rare in Iran too because 
     it never really got over its distaste for  arabs.   It is even far more rare in Pakistan
     then in north african muslim countries ----hindus did not do it



> I wonder why ME and Pakistani Christians, Druze and other minorities practice honor killings too?



     Very rarely----but local custom ----of those in MAJORITY always have an
     effect on minorities ---



> I wonder why female mutilation occurs in Christian African countries?




    It was there before islam got there-----migrated from Egypt---Egypt 
    had very close trade relations with subsaharan blacks  




> I wonder why female mutilation is rare in western muslims?



   Its illegal 



> Go figure.
> 
> Big mysteries here my friend


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## Hossfly (May 7, 2013)

irosie91 said:


> Coyote said:
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> ...


It is silly, IRosie, to even waste more time on Coyote and the subject of honor killings.  I think many of the viewers who had previously never even knew that things like honor killings happened have now been presented with so many articles about them on the Internet, and it appears that this is mainly prevalent in the Muslim world.   Coyote can argue from Monday through Sunday about it not being prevalent in the Muslim world if it makes her happy.  In fact, she can contact Zohra Yusuf, chairwoman of the HRCP, and tell her that a country like Pakistan which is mainly Muslim  has so few honor killings of young females.


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## proudveteran06 (May 7, 2013)

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Palestinians Hand Out Candy After Murder of 5 Israelis in Their Sleep | The Gateway Pundit


 GETS EVEN BETTER THEN THAT!

PMW Bulletins  
Abbas sponsors birthday celebrations honoring terrorist Dalal Mughrabi, killer of 37  
by Itamar Marcus and Nan Jacques Zilberdik 
Dec. 31, 2009  




More Sharing ServicesShare | Share on facebookShare on twitterShare on emailShare on print 




This week Palestinian Authority Chairman Mahmoud Abbas once again honored the memory of the terrorist Dalal Mughrabi - this time by sponsoring a ceremony celebrating the 50th anniversary of her birth. Mughrabi led the most lethal terror attack in Israel's history in 1978, when she and other terrorists hijacked a bus and killed 37 civilians. Present at the ceremony were Palestinian dignitaries and a children's marching band. Earlier this year, Abbas sponsored a computer center named after Mughrabi.

The PA further glorified Mughrabi on the date of her birth when the Governor of Ramallah announced the naming of the "Dalal Mughrabi Square".

An article by Fatah spokesman Jamal Nazal in the official PA daily defined the terrorist Mughrabi as "the heroine of Palestine's heroines."
[Al-Hayat Al-Jadida, Dec. 30, 2009]




Banner showing Mughrabi at birthday celebration 

PA leaders at Mughrabi birthday celebration 

Children's marching band at Mughrabi birthday celebration 
Remnat of bus hijacked bu Mughrabi 
Remnant of bus hijacked by Mughrabi 
The text on the giant banner carrying Mughrabi's portrait at the birthday ceremony read:
"Under the auspices of President Mahmoud Abbas
The Political and National Education Authority
Ceremony on the anniversary of the birth of the bride of the cosmos
The Shahida (Martyr) Dalal Mughrabi."

Two PA TV news broadcasts focused on the celebration:
"Under the auspices of President Mahmoud Abbas, the Political and National Education Authority held a ceremony marking the 50th anniversary of the Shahida (Martyr) Dalal Mughrabi, commander of the Coastal Operation (i.e. hijacking of bus and killing of 37 civilians)." 
[PA TV (Fatah), Dec. 29, 2009]

These are not isolated examples of public glorification of terrorists in the PA. The PA has a strong tradition of using terrorists as role models -- especially for children -- by naming public places, facilities and events after them. Dalal Mughrabi, who is not known for anything other than her murderous terror attack, is one of the prominent examples of a terrorist who is promoted as a worthy and desirable role model.

The following are named after, or have been named after Dalal Mughrabi in the last two years: 



   Last but not least, He initially called me a " racist" because I don't believe Palestinians should become citizens of Israel.  When I challenged him about Abbas NO JEW/ NO ISRAELI Policy he denied it!


Abbas? Palestine: No Jews Allowed







The Cordray Crisis





Santorum's Flawed Plan for Working America




Abbas Palestine: No Jews Allowed



May 30th, 2011 at 11:53 pm Emmanuel Navon  | 36 Comments |

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So now here is the question Netanyahu cleverly asked in his masterly address to the US Congress.  If the benefits of peace with the Palestinians are so clear, why has peace eluded us?  Netanyahus answer to his own rhetorical question was correct: the Palestinian leadership has always refused, and continues to refuse, to sign a peace agreement that entails the acceptance and permanence of the Jewish state, regardless of its borders.  Hence the PAs rejection of the offers by Ehud Barack (in 2000) and by Ehud Olmert (in 2008) to establish a Palestinian state on virtually the entire West Bank and Gaza.  Arafat and Abbas said no, because they were asked to abandon the fantasy of invading Israel with the descendants of the 1948 Arab refugees, because they refused to recognize the Jewish past of the Temple Mount, and because they would not commit to ending the conflict after reaching statehood.

So then here is another question.  If Abbas refused to establish a Palestinian state within borders that were practically identical to the 1949 armistice lines, why would he accept to establish a Palestinian state on a smaller territory in order for Israel to have defensible borders?  Those who claim that Israel will eventually achieve peace by keeping offering the Palestinians what theyve rejected many times are a lively example of Einsteins definition of insanity (doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results).  And those who expect the Palestinians to agree to a downgraded version of what they rejected in the past somehow reenact the famous spat between Winston Churchill and Lady Astor (Winston, if you were my husband, Id poison your tea  Nancy, if I were your husband, I would drink it).

A standard answer to this question is that all Israel needs to do in order to achieve peace with the Palestinians is to withdraw to the 1967 border.  There never was such a border.  What existed between 1949 and 1967 was an armistice line specifically defined as temporary in the Rhodes Agreements upon Jordans insistence.  This line was not a border and never was meant to become one.  UN Security Council Resolution 242 was specifically worded so as not to convert the armistice line into a border.  There is no legal basis for demanding an Israeli withdrawal to the 1949 armistice line.  But besides legality, claiming that withdrawing to those lines will produce peace with the Palestinians defies logics.  There was no peace before 1967, so why would rewinding history back to 1967 bring a peace that didnt exist then?

The reason why Israel was able to extract a peace agreement (though no real peace) from Sadat by withdrawing from Sinai is that all Sadat wanted was Sinai (and, incidentally, the American financial largess that came with it).  If all the Palestinians wanted were the West Bank and Gaza, the rewind to 1967 formula would work with them as well.  But since what they want is all of Palestine, previous attempts to bring them to sign a peace agreement by settling for the pre-1967 setting have failed.  The PA teaches Palestinian children that Jaffa and Haifa will eventually be liberated from the Zionist invaders and that the only purpose of signing agreements with the infidels is to achieve the ultimate goal of liberating all of Palestine.  The message is getting through.  A poll conducted by Stanley Greenberg in November 2010 reveals that 60% of Palestinians see in the two-state solution a mere step to replace Israel with an exclusively Arab state.

The claim that the Palestinians have abandoned their goal of liberating all of Palestine ignores what they themselves keep saying (though, admittedly, in Arabic).  On May 28, Mahmud Abbas declared in Doha that he will never recognize Israel as a Jewish state, that he will never give up on the right of return, and that the future Palestinian state will be clean (or empty, depending on the translation) of any Israeli presence (including civilians).  In such a scenario, the State of Israel would lose its Jewish majority, while the Palestinian state will be clean of any Jew.  Jews would become a minority between the Mediterranean Sea and the Jordan River, and they would be ruled by the Arab majority.  If Abbas is so clear about his true intentions, and if he is so explicit about them, why is it so hard to believe him?


 The above is just part of the article.  I'm a " racist" because I don't care if Arabs stab each other to death or they're the victim of an " Honor Killing?'   TOO BAD!  When the Arabs stop handing out Candy, stop naming streets after the suicide bombers, and show they are ready to " negotiate" a peace maybe then I'll consider it.  


 He is nothing but a lying, racist Hypocrite


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## Coyote (May 7, 2013)

proudveteran06 said:


> The above is just part of the article.  I'm a " racist" because I don't care if Arabs stab each other to death or they're the victim of an " Honor Killing?'   TOO BAD!  When the Arabs stop handing out Candy, stop naming streets after the suicide bombers, and show they are ready to " negotiate" a peace maybe then I'll consider it.
> 
> 
> He is nothing but a lying, racist Hypocrite



You need to get a bit of control over yourself PV.

I didn't call you a racist.

I said you were a bigot because you only care if certain people get killed.

Interestingly - you make big hoopla when Palestinians name streets after suicide bombers but remain silent when Israel commerates the King David Hotel bombing or elects former terrorists to public office.

So, in your book - some terrorists are ok and murder ONLY counts when it's not Arabs being killed.

Sweet, no?

Thank you for clarifying your (somewhat grotesque) sense of ethics.


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## SherriMunnerlyn (May 7, 2013)

I think that post 282 says everything in this world about the poster any person needs to know, and nothing else. THE post illustrates the poster is a lying bigot! This thread began with the story of a tragic killing and that poster turned a tragedy that left a little boy motherless into a demonization of Muslims and all of the posters arguments are based on lies! I guess lying bigots shall alwsys be lying bigots! And for lying bigots tragedies like the story in the OP fall on deaf ears! Sherri


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## Coyote (May 7, 2013)

Hossfly said:


> irosie91 said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...



And Hossfly can talk directly to Coyote instead of engaging in this silly third party charade 

By the way...you have yet to explain how* it is that you lambaste Sherri for not giving a damn about atrocities occurring in other Muslim countries while you show a deafening lack of concern for atrocities commited by non-Muslim perps.*

Similarly, your deliberate act of denseness on Pakistan is .... cute.  I have repeatedly specified Indonesia (hint - the most populous Muslim country is NOT Pakistan but Indonesia) and I have agreed Pakistan has serious  issue (on many fronts).  Perhaps you can stop pretending that I claimed Pakistan has so few honor killings?  Think that's possible sweetie?

Interesting but not surprising


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## Coyote (May 7, 2013)

irosie91 said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Why does it seem strange?  Immigrants often bring certain customs with them.  The fact that it is still  RARE among immigrants is testimony that that is one of the customs not often brought along.
> ...



Good bit Rosie...and I agree.  In those cultures - traditional Hindu and Muslim both, women were and are expected to maintain a certain seperateness and demureness.  Something I could never have accepted.

Short stories - I have a wealth of them both Hindu and Muslim, modern and old (old by being of 1960's vintage paperbacks falling apart) - I have not read them all.  But whether it's the seperateness or the match making, it reveals a culture both similar (mostly, we  care about our children want what's best...).  Surrptitious glances are prized in the Indian Muslim culture...and Muslim and Hindu women have many ways of being both modest and colorful - walking the line of propriety.

Rosie - do you like Indian films and films on culture clash?  If so - I would highly recommend this trilogy - both very India and beatifully choreographed, by Deepa Mehta: Elements trilogy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia




> > Do they bring their tribal customs to Europe?
> > By the way, why not ask her what she thinks about the female circumcision in Muslim society.  I read articles that even in the U.S., they are doing this
> >
> > I wonder why honor killings are so rare in the most populous Muslim nation in the world?
> ...



So basically -it's not religious, it's cultural.  I understand that female mutilation is also predominantly of African origin.



> Very rarely----but local custom ----of those in MAJORITY always have an
> effect on minorities ---



Not necessarily - sometimes the majority incorporates what is already there, in the minority - for example, the Roman's overan the Greeks and incorporated their Pantheon into the Roman Pantheon.  Same with Christians - pagan gods and goddess' became saints and demons and pagan customs arose in Christmas, Easter, and Feast days.



> It was there before islam got there-----migrated from Egypt---Egypt
> had very close trade relations with subsaharan blacks



So...it's not really Islam.


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## proudveteran06 (May 7, 2013)

Coyote said:


> proudveteran06 said:
> 
> 
> > The above is just part of the article.  I'm a " racist" because I don't care if Arabs stab each other to death or they're the victim of an " Honor Killing?'   TOO BAD!  When the Arabs stop handing out Candy, stop naming streets after the suicide bombers, and show they are ready to " negotiate" a peace maybe then I'll consider it.
> ...



   You initiatially did call me a Racist when I said that Palestinians who might live within the " borders" should not get Full citizenship like the Israelis do.

  I'm a bigot because I don't care about Arabs who get kiled? Too bad you don't have those high" standards" for Pro Palestinians on the board and the rest of the Arab World

  Israel does not commerate the King David Hotel Bombing as the killing of Palestinians or anybody else.  You are a liar

The Bombing of the King David Hotel


The Bombing of the King David Hotel

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The King David Hotel was the site of the British military command and the British Criminal Investigation Division. The Irgun chose it as a target after British troops invaded the Jewish Agency June 29, 1946, and confiscated large quantities of documents. At about the same time, more than 2,500 Jews from all over Palestine were placed under arrest. The information about Jewish Agency operations, including intelligence activities in Arab countries, was taken to the King David Hotel. 

A week later, news of a massacre of 40 Jews in a pogrom in Poland reminded the Jews of Palestine how Britain's restrictive immigration policy had condemned thousands to death. 

Irgun leader Menachem Begin stressed his desire to avoid civilian casualties and said three telephone calls were placed, one to the hotel, another to the French Consulate, and a third to the Palestine Post, warning that explosives in the King David Hotel would soon be detonated. 

On July 22, 1946, the calls were made. The call into the hotel was apparently received and ignored. Begin quotes one British official who supposedly refused to evacuate the building, saying: "We don't take orders from the Jews."1 As a result, when the bombs exploded, the casualty toll was high: a total of 91 killed and 45 injured. Among the casualties were 15 Jews. Few people in the hotel proper were injured by the blast.2 




   So in your Book, I should care about Arabs while they celebrate , Hand out Candy, and name streets after those who kill Israelis

      So in your book, I should condemn Israel's " racist policy" but it's perfectly aacceptible for Abbas to have a NJA " No Israelis Allowed" Policy.  Thank you for explaining your Racist, Hypoctitical Dounle Standard and Code of Ethics.  Typical Pro Palestinian Mentality


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## Coyote (May 7, 2013)

proudveteran06 said:


> Coyote said:
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Link.



> I'm a bigot because I don't care about Arabs who get kiled? Too bad you don't have those high" standards" for Pro Palestinians on the board and the rest of the Arab World



Too bad is right.  I care about all those that get killed.

I guess being human is more important than ethnic and religious boundaries, dontcha think?



> Israel does not commerate the King David Hotel Bombing as the killing of Palestinians or anybody else.  You are a liar



Nope.  It's not me who's the liar.

Israel celebrates Irgun hotel bombers - Telegraph


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## Hossfly (May 7, 2013)

Coyote said:


> Hossfly said:
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> > irosie91 said:
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Isn't it funny how Coyote has nothing to say when other people happen to speak to another poster about something that was posted by yet another poster,   but when it involves something she posted, then she is quick to react about it being a "charade?".  I have never seen you lambaste Frau Sherri for anything, especially when she is dragging Jesus into the mix.  It is interesting, but not surprising that you would stick up for someone posting who is all over the Internet bashing the Jews and Israel and constantly calling the "Zionists" baby killers.  Doesn't it make you wonder how she finds time to do anything else in her life?  We all know, Coyote, that in all different groups on this planet that people commit atrocities toward other people, but you seem to be blind as to whom is committing the most atrocities today.  For some reason you seem to have a fit if the Muslims are accused of anything even if the accusations happen to be true.


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## Hossfly (May 7, 2013)

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> I think that post 282 says everything in this world about the poster any person needs to know, and nothing else. THE post illustrates the poster is a lying bigot! This thread began with the story of a tragic killing and that poster turned a tragedy that left a little boy motherless into a demonization of Muslims and all of the posters arguments are based on lies! I guess lying bigots shall alwsys be lying bigots! And for lying bigots tragedies like the story in the OP fall on deaf ears! Sherri


You don't think many of the viewers haven't figure you out by now, Frau Sherri?  How many times have you lied about the Israelis so I wouldn't be calling someone a lying bigot if I were you?  I doubt that Proud Veteran is all over the Internet day and night bashing the Muslims the way you are with your bashing the Jews and Israel as if it were a full-time job with overtime thrown in.


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## proudveteran06 (May 7, 2013)

Coyote said:


> proudveteran06 said:
> 
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 You are the liar.   They are Celebrating the Resistence; They are not Celebrating any Palestinians, Arabs, British, or anyone else dying.  That is the difference unlike the example below where the Palestinians were handing out Candy

Itamar massacre: Fogel family butchered while sleeping - Israel News, Ynetnews

Get it now?  Of course not.  You are too bigoted and stupid


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## proudveteran06 (May 7, 2013)

Hossfly said:


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 He's nothing but a HYPOCRITE.   Abbas has a NJA/ No Israeli allowed Policy which I have posted ( the link) but he still denies it.   At the samr time he calls Israel " racist".  


  That Jew Hating " Christian" Sherri can say MS. Fogel " asked for it" there's no condemnation.   However, I don't give a SHIT about Muslims amd I'm a " racist, bigot" etc. etc. 


 He gets a fit when it's proven that " HONOR KILLINGS" mainly occur in the Muslim World and it's part of their Culture.  TOO BAD!


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## Coyote (May 7, 2013)

proudveteran06 said:


> Coyote said:
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One point at a time.

You claimed:  You initiatially did call me a Racist when I said that Palestinians who might live within the " borders" should not get Full citizenship like the Israelis do.

I'm asking you for a link.

Or, make it simple and admit you are a liar.

The Fogel family is irrelevant to this discussion so stop throwing it out like a desperate attempt to change the topic.

Lastly:  Irgun is a terrorist gang.  The King David Hotel attack was a terrorist attack.  The commemeration, according to the article was not the "resistance" but the attack on the hotel.  Which you would have realized if you had read the article.  Bigoted and stupid kind of comes to mind here.


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## Coyote (May 7, 2013)

Hossfly said:


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Shame on you Hossfly - you can't address the argument itself so you have to resort to an attack on the poster, in third person no less?  If I substitute "Frau Sherri" for "Coyote" the formula would be the same, no?

Let me repeat:  How* is it that you lambaste Sherri for not giving a damn about atrocities occurring in other Muslim countries while you show a deafening lack of concern for atrocities commited by non-Muslim perps.*

A resounding chorus of hypocrickets awaits


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## Hossfly (May 7, 2013)

Coyote said:


> Hossfly said:
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It looks like you're standing by to jump right on my post on this thread.  Shame on you, Coyote, for trying to fool the viewers that no one ever speaks to another poster about the posts some other person has made.   I am sure the viewers realize, Coyote, that you never actually say anything no matter what Frau Sherri writes, even though a lot of it is so ridiculous.   So to me and others, you are the hypocrite here.  If you want everyone to think that you are so evenhanded and virtuous, go for it.


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## irosie91 (May 7, 2013)

Coyote said:


> irosie91 said:
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## proudveteran06 (May 8, 2013)

Hossfly said:


> Coyote said:
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Coyote is nothing but a F...ING Hypocrite. I am supposed to care about Muslim " Honor Killing" or Muslims being killed at all while an entire Jewish Family ( Just one example!) is killed with their infant boy actually beheaded? That " Christian" Sherri states   " She( Ms Fogel) asked for it and there is no condemnation? He denies it primarily happens. among Muslims/ Arabs. He keeps referring to Indonesia. Ask him why he isn't focusing on the problem in general there will be no response.  This is besides the point but I am " racist" because I agree with Israel's Policy about not letting Palestinians who marry Israelis become Full Citizens even though they are allowed to live there but Abbas having a " No Israelis Allowed " Policy isn't?  Consider the source


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## proudveteran06 (May 8, 2013)

Coyote said:


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You are Thanks for proving my point. They are celebrating the Resistence; Not the people that were killed UNLIKE Pro Palestinians who applaud and cheer when Israelis are killed, You Hypocrite


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## Coyote (May 8, 2013)

Hossfly said:


> It looks like you're standing by to jump right on my post on this thread.  Shame on you, Coyote, for trying to fool the viewers that no one ever speaks to another poster about the posts some other person has made.   I am sure the viewers realize, Coyote, that you never actually say anything no matter what Frau Sherri writes, even though a lot of it is so ridiculous.   So to me and others, you are the hypocrite here.  *If you want everyone to think that you are so evenhanded and virtuous, go for it*.



I've never implied nor claimed to be "evenhanded" much less "virtuous".  I'm biased like everyone else here- I have my views and am not ashamed to express them nor do I feel in any way obligated to denounce every creepy post in order to prove to you that I'm "unbiased".

I'm sure viewers also have read through *post after derailing post* of you chastizing "Frau" Sherri for her one sided views while simultaneiously noting* a stark lack of concern* for non-Islamic abuses going on around the world and *an extreme lack of criticism for outrageous posts coming from your own side*.  

You know the old saying....if the Foo shits....wear it.


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## Coyote (May 8, 2013)

proudveteran06 said:


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Ya right - and you don't think the Palestinians are celebrating the resistance?  You don't think they feel that their terrorists are a resistance movement?  Your double standard in regards to terrorism is as blatant as your ignorance


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## irosie91 (May 8, 2013)

yeah----ok     will the brits complain about  the US  celebrating the  
FOURTH OF JULY   too?


I have to admit-----the famous painting of  George Washtington---
on a little boat----crossing the Delaware on christmas eve to  
murder drunk   british soldiers-------does seem a bit ----
-----in slightly bad taste.  -----afterall   -----DRUNKEN BOYS ON 
CHRISTMAS EVE??????      that picture shows up in grammar school 
classrooms across the US-------tell the ambassadors


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## Coyote (May 8, 2013)

proudveteran06 said:


> Hossfly said:
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Got your own house in order yet PV?  Gonna "give a shit" about innocent civilians killed or just those that aren't Arab?



> I am supposed to care about Muslim " Honor Killing" or Muslims being killed at all while an entire Jewish Family ( Just one example!) is killed with their infant boy actually beheaded?



Well, here's what is kind of weird PV....I think there is room in the heart to care about them all.  Brutal killing of innocent civilians is just that - brutal and contemptable.  Is your heart so small that it can't possibly hold more?  Or, is it just your bigotry?



> That " Christian" Sherri states   " She( Ms Fogel) asked for it and there is no condemnation?



I ignore a lot of senseless posts.  It's usually a good idea.  You might try it instead of working yourself into a rage that showcases your hypocrisy 



> He denies it primarily happens. among Muslims/ Arabs.



Will you ever stop lying?  I have not denied it happens primarily within the Arab, Pakistani, and Indian cultures.  You're the one who can't see it is not a religious problem but a cultural one.



> He keeps referring to Indonesia. Ask him why he isn't focusing on the problem in general there will be no response.



Well gee...let's see....PV is claiming it's religious problem and a part of Islam yet when I point out that Indonesia - the nation with the largest number of Muslims in the world - rarely has an honor killing - you accuse me on "not focusing on the problem in general".

You still keep dodging the questions asked (speaking of no responses).



> This is besides the point but I am " racist" because I agree with Israel's Policy about not letting Palestinians who marry Israelis become Full Citizens even though they are allowed to live there but Abbas having a " No Israelis Allowed " Policy isn't?  Consider the source



Another question you keep dodging: where have I called you a racist?


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## Coyote (May 8, 2013)

proudveteran06 said:


> So in your book, I should condemn Israel's " racist policy" but it's perfectly aacceptible for Abbas to have a NJA " No Israelis Allowed" Policy.  Thank you for explaining your Racist, Hypoctitical Dounle Standard and Code of Ethics.  Typical Pro Palestinian Mentality



You might need to bone up on your reading comprehension here...or, maybe just read instead of flap your lips.  We discussed the Abbas statement and the context in which it was made and what it referred to (do we really need to review it again?) - I'm open to debate on it but if you're just going to go off on irrational tangents and ignore the facts then there is little point.  

The critical issue with your Abbas example is that* at this time there is no such policy in place.*  When and if there is -* then it can be condemned* but until then all this shows is a desperation on your part to find anything to throw in order to see if it sticks.

Nice to see you've now added accusations of "racist" to your repetoire....have you found yet where I called you a racist?


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## proudveteran06 (May 8, 2013)

Coyote said:


> proudveteran06 said:
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> 
> > Hossfly said:
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I don't give a SHIT is different then saying someone deserved it  If you can't discern the difference and condemn the person who stated the latter that is your problem . I am " bigoted" because I don't care about Arabs killing Arabs? When you have the same standards concerning those who kill Jews  instead of giving a pass to " She deserved it ", When you condemn the Arab World in general maybe then you won't be quite the hypocrite you are.    Regarding Indonesia, I did answer. Why talk about one country instead of the general problem? You did call me a racist because I agreed with Israel Policy that a Palestinian married to an Israeli should not get the FULL citizenship Israelis get. When I mentioned that Abbas had a NO ISRAELIS ALLOWED Policy you denied this and challenged me to post it again. Well, I did exactly that Yesterday . Just showing more of your hypocrisy


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## Coyote (May 8, 2013)

proudveteran06 said:


> I don't give a SHIT is different then saying someone deserved it



And your point is?  How does that make you not a hypocrite?  It simply makes the both of you contemptable.



> If you can't discern the difference and condemn the person who stated the latter that is your problem .



Oh, I've condemned her for saying stupid shit.  I usually ignore a lot of the posts.  You seem to think every atrocious post is worth replying to.  It's not.



> I am " bigoted" because I don't care about Arabs killing Arabs? When you have *the same standards* concerning those who kill Jews



I do.

You don't.

See the difference here?




> instead of giving a pass to " She deserved it ",



Not responding to a post is not the same as "giving a pass".

Get back to me when you have responded to every dumbfuck post on this board.  I won't hold my breath.



> When you condemn the Arab World in general



Why should I condemn the Arab World "in general".  It's varied and diverse.

Far better to condemn individual actions, laws, etc.



> maybe then you won't be quite the hypocrite you are.



How laughably refreshing coming from someone who absolutely won't condemn "her own" and "doesn't give a shit" when innocent Arab women are brutally killed...because, well...they're just Arabs 

Is the hypocrite shoe pinching your toes?  I think the fit is quite good.



> Regarding Indonesia, I did answer. Why talk about one country instead of the general problem?



We're talking about a population.  A huge population.  An inconvenient population for Islamophobes to work around but there you have it.  

The general problem is it is a brutal cultural legacy of tribal/patriararchal societies and is prevalent in the Arab world (and not just Muslims in those areas); in India (and among Hindus); Pakistan.  The problem is that there is nothing specific in Islam that condones it or promotes it any more than any other religion in the area.



> You did call me a racist because I agreed with Israel Policy that a Palestinian married to an Israeli should not get the FULL citizenship Israelis get.



Then find the link.



> When I mentioned that Abbas had a NO ISRAELIS ALLOWED Policy you denied this and challenged me to post it again. Well, I did exactly that Yesterday . Just showing more of your hypocrisy



I challanged you to post it again because I did not see where you had posted it the first time (in fact - it wasn't even in the thread we were discussing)

Then, unlike you - I actually read the article 

How is the shoe fitting?


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## proudveteran06 (May 8, 2013)

Coyote said:


> proudveteran06 said:
> 
> 
> > I don't give a SHIT is different then saying someone deserved it
> ...





Abbas: No Jews in Palestinian State


Abbas: No Jews in Palestinian State

December 28, 2010 by Eric 


In 1948 and again in 1967, Israel made big steps to naturalize Palestinians living in annexed territories.

The Druze in the Golan, for example, have virtually all accepted citizenship, been given access to world-class education and healthcare for free, and volunteer for the army.  They are free to travel anywhere in Israel, including the Arab free roads in Judea and Samaria.  They have Israeli passports and enjoy every freedom given to people in the Western, democratic world.

The Palestinians living in cities like Umm Al-Faham, Haifa, Tel Aviv, and Jerusalem were all given the same offer.  In Haifa, Israeli Arabs live next door to Israeli Jews in peace.  I will admit that there are problems.  Racism is a major issue.  There is some segregation between neighborhoods, but that is no different from Black neighborhoods and Mexican neighborhoods and White neighborhoods in the United States.  They are all given the same rights.

So why do the Palestinians treat the Jews differently?

Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas made it clear that a future state called Palestine will not be a home to Jews.


We have frankly said, and always will say: If there is an independent Palestinian state with Jerusalem as its capital, we wont agree to the presence of one Israeli in it.

In the same speech, he goes on to blame Benjamin Netanyahu for a lack of progress in the peace process.  It sounds like Abbas is more concerned with Dhimmi living in his land than a sustainable peace.



   Try to read SLOWLY if you are capable ( Doubt it)  This has been posted many times before in addition to other posts.  Don't see anything wrong with this?  Of course not.  You're a bigot and a racist when it comes to Jewish Rights.   My shoe is fitting fine.  Yours is in your mouth where it belongs


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## Coyote (May 8, 2013)

proudveteran06 said:


> Abbas: No Jews in Palestinian State
> 
> 
> Abbas: No Jews in Palestinian State
> ...



Sigh....we've been through this before, but what the hell - I'll just link to the post where you can read the context of the comments by Abbas: http://www.usmessageboard.com/7103663-post47.html 
Context matters dear, and you would be better off reading the original article in it's entirety, from the Jeruselem Post rather than using a piece-of-crap propaganda source.

Keep up the bigotry - it suits your "don't give a shit" attitude towards the brutal murder of innocent women who happen to be Arab.


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## proudveteran06 (May 9, 2013)

Coyote said:


> proudveteran06 said:
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> 
> > Abbas: No Jews in Palestinian State
> ...



Abbas was not talking about the Israeli Military. He was talking about a" Palestinian state" without any Israelis. Keep drinking the Palestinian Kool Aid. As stated before, " I don't give a Shit is quite different then stating " she asked for it" yet you don't condemn the latter . Keep up with your racism and bigotry; It suits you


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## Coyote (May 9, 2013)

proudveteran06 said:


> Coyote said:
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Abbas vows: No room for Israelis in Palestinian state | JPost | Israel News


> Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas announced on Saturday that when a Palestinian state is established, it will have no Israelis in it.
> 
> &#8220;We have frankly said, and always will say: If there is an independent Palestinian state with Jerusalem as its capital, we won&#8217;t agree to the presence of one Israeli in it,&#8221; Abbas told reporters in Ramallah.
> 
> ...



 

Like I said, several times already - if a Palestinian state is developed, and a law is passed saying "no Jews" - I will come right out and condemn it as racist.  But there is no such law as of yet.

Meanwhile, you have already endorsed Israel's racist law.


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## SherriMunnerlyn (May 9, 2013)

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Lets see you show all of us where a poster said "she deserved it." You keep making this lying claim about me and I never said that.


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## Coyote (May 9, 2013)

SherriMunnerlyn said:


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She doesn't tend to provide links when she makes claims about other people.


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## proudveteran06 (May 9, 2013)

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   Israel has Arabs but Israel is " racist?"  Yet you don't consider Abbas statement to be. We already see a NJA in Gaza.  Commom sense would telly you it would be the same in E. Jerusalem and the W. Bank That is when you called me one.  You are the Racist for your Double Standard  and bigotry


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## proudveteran06 (May 9, 2013)

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 he was not confirming about any military.  Stop drinking the palestinian kool- aid, you bigot


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## proudveteran06 (May 9, 2013)

SherriMunnerlyn said:


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  I was referring to the remark you made about the Fogel Family way back and you know I was.  You stated she was a school- teacher who taught terrorism and when I asked for proof of course there wasn't any.


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## Coyote (May 9, 2013)

proudveteran06 said:


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*Context*....flies right over your head

You have YET to show link to where I called YOU a "racist".  In the meantime, you have been busy flinging the racist accusation left and right

Keep it up Ms. "I don't give a shit" if innocent if young arab women are brutally killed but it's apparently different when innocent Jews are killed.

Abbas' statement was made within a specific context: the presence of the IDF.  That is supported in the article.  There's nothing in it that is racist *unless you cherry pick it out of context.*

Now if you want to extrapolate into the future and ask whether there will be tolerance for Jews in a Palestinian states or racist policies - that's different.  I'd be concerned about retribution and attacks upon remaining Jews and possibly racist policies despite words to the contrary.  Words are just words.  

However - at this point - there is nothing actually racist in law or policy.  Do you get the difference?  One is words taken out of context - the other is an actual law being enforced.


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## toastman (May 9, 2013)

proudveteran06 said:


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She makes comments, an then she denies them when we call her out on it. It's called Palestinian Mentality


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## proudveteran06 (May 9, 2013)

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  You can drink the Pro Palestinian Kool Aid all you want but he was NOT referring to the Military.  As already stated, Israel has Arabs.  Israel has the right be be a JEWISH STATE. Now, I know that upsets you but those are the facts .   What Abbas said was NOT taken out of context .   Keep drinking the Kool Aid


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## Coyote (May 9, 2013)

proudveteran06 said:


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I'm guessing it is this thread:  http://www.usmessageboard.com/israel-and-palestine/291168-attacks-on-civilians-2.html#post7158348

Is this the post you are referring to?
http://www.usmessageboard.com/7158348-post16.html


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## Coyote (May 9, 2013)

proudveteran06 said:


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Take it up with the Jeruselum Post then - THEY are the ones stating that. 



> As already stated, Israel has Arabs.  Israel has the right be be a JEWISH STATE. Now, I know that upsets you but those are the facts .   What Abbas said was NOT taken out of context .   Keep drinking the Kool Aid



Ok, so you are justifying your bigotry - kind of like South Africa eh?


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## proudveteran06 (May 9, 2013)

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 South Africa?    LOL!

   If Israel treated Arabs who live within the " borders" the way the blacks who lived in South Africa were, that would be a fair comparison.  Is that is what's happening?    Link, please!  However it's O.K. for Abbas to have a NO ISRAELI POLICY which included Israeli Arabs unlike Israel who does have Arabs .   

    You are so bigoted and racist you can't see the difference.  You also can talk about that other " link" all you want, however you have accused me of not posting the one I have referred to in the past.  

    Well, I have and of course you have ignored it.   Kool- Aid time


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## proudveteran06 (May 9, 2013)

Coyote said:


> proudveteran06 said:
> 
> 
> > SherriMunnerlyn said:
> ...



 No, that is NOT the thread.  I'm not sure but I think it was the one where there was that " Honor Killing"


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## SherriMunnerlyn (May 9, 2013)

proudveteran06 said:


> Coyote said:
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That is this thread. Stillwater waiting for you to back up your claim.


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## Coyote (May 9, 2013)

proudveteran06 said:


> Coyote said:
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> > proudveteran06 said:
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Let me give you a suggestion: stick to the facts.  There is NO such policy at this time.

Do you understand the term "reality check" - because seriously, you need it.



> You are so bigoted and racist you can't see the difference.  You also can talk about that other " link" all you want, however you have accused me of not posting the one I have referred to in the past.



You are making claims left and right about what other posters say and think and *not substantiating any of it*.  After a while it's easy to see a pattern which is that you are making stuff up.  Of course it's easy to disprove - just provide the links.



> Well, I have and of course you have ignored it.   Kool- Aid time



Where?  Link to where I called you a racist?  Where Sherry said the Fogel's deserved it?  I actually tried to look for it because it's useful to know what someone actually said but apparently what I found is the wrong one.  Perhaps you can provide the right one 

Koolaide is bad for you.  All that red dye and sugar.  That might explain a lot.  I suggest you stick with water


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## proudveteran06 (May 9, 2013)

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> proudveteran06 said:
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  It's not the thread you lying " Christian" Antisemetic  Bigot   I believe it was the thread about that " Honor Killing"


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## Coyote (May 9, 2013)

proudveteran06 said:


> SherriMunnerlyn said:
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> > proudveteran06 said:
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That would be this thread then.  Should be easy for you to find the link then


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## proudveteran06 (May 9, 2013)

Coyote said:


> proudveteran06 said:
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      You did call me a racist  Calling me a bigot is exactly the same.

 Told you where Sheri said Ms. Fogel deserved it.    DE-NIAL is not the River.   Kool- Aid Time !


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## irosie91 (May 9, 2013)

Quote: Originally Posted by SherriMunnerlyn  

Lets see you show all of us where a poster said "she deserved it." You keep making this lying claim about me and I never said that.



That's ok     sherri-----why should anyone belabor the poiint as to  "WHAT 
YOU SAID" ----you can just tell us what you said.       To summarize---
the  Fogels family----parents and some of the several kids including an 
infant were brutally murdered in a home invasion ---during a no conflict  
situation       How would you evaluate the attack and the perpetrators 
thereof?      I do recall some of your comments on the issue but 
would not risk trying to    QUOTE THEM VERBATIM        or spend time 
looking for them------it is so much easier for you to just tell us your take 
on that situation and how you would deal with the perpetrators thereof


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## Coyote (May 9, 2013)

proudveteran06 said:


> Coyote said:
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Then provide a source - easy right?



> Calling me a bigot is exactly the same.



Nope.  Check the dictionary.



> Told you where Sheri said Ms. Fogel deserved it.    DE-NIAL is not the River.   Kool- Aid Time !



You told me it was "the honor killing thread" - presumably this one.  In case you haven't noticed it's beyond 22 pages now.  If not this one, no idea which one you mean.  You claim something, you don't back it up - it looks like blowing smoke.  If you back it up - I have no problem saying I'm wrong.  Easy right?

(Told ya koolaide is bad for you)


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## proudveteran06 (May 9, 2013)

proudveteran06 said:


> Coyote said:
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  Recall that post about the " Honor Killing?"  Don't know exactly how the thread was titled.   It was there that I initiated the conservation about Ms. Fogel and that was her response.        Deny it all you want.


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## proudveteran06 (May 10, 2013)

proudveteran06 said:


> proudveteran06 said:
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  Went through as many posts ( links) as possible.  Didn't even think I posted on this link but I obviously did.  This is not the one I was referring to but it will do !    In the origninal post I asked her to provide the " link" that she taught young girls how to be terrorists.  Of course there was no resonse.

     The way you feel " I don't Give a Shit" is the same as saying " She deserved it" although a 10 year old would know the difference I feel the same way about that second remark "   We reap what we sow"   

    Of course you agree with both;  Pro Palestinian Mentality  


http://www.usmessageboard.com/showthread.php?p=7104980#post7104980 
Quote: Originally Posted by proudveteran06 http://www.usmessageboard.com/showthread.php?p=7102801#post7102801 
Quote: Originally Posted by Jos http://www.usmessageboard.com/showthread.php?p=7102565#post7102565 
Then Payback in your case will be a bitch too, wont it?


By his silence concerning the Fogel family at least he conceeds that not only was there NO sympathy or compassion but CELEBRATION! 

That is how I will feel starting right now !!!!!  


   The above is me.  Pro Palestinians don't give a SHIT about what happened to that family?  Two can play that game!   

RUTHIE FOGEL WAS A WAR CRIMINAL ILLEGAL SETTLER WHO TAUGHT LITTLE GIRLS In AN EXTREMIST SCHOOL TO BE TERRORISTS! What happened to her and the family who she placed in danger is an illustration of how we reap what we sow!Sheei justifies the brutal murder of two parents and 3 young children.

Let the board see how dark Sherri's heart is!


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## Coyote (May 10, 2013)

proudveteran06 said:


> The way you feel " I don't Give a Shit" is the same as saying " She deserved it" although a 10 year old would know the difference I feel the same way about that second remark "   We reap what we sow"



Actually - in my book, it is the same.  It's a blatent lack of conern - even vindictive delight in a loss of life.  *I don't give a shit* and *we reap what we sow* is what says when one steps on a cockroach.



> Of course you agree with both;  Pro Palestinian Mentality



What ever...I'm beginning to think you represent a pro-retard mentality.



> http://www.usmessageboard.com/showthread.php?p=7104980#post7104980
> Quote: Originally Posted by proudveteran06 http://www.usmessageboard.com/showthread.php?p=7102801#post7102801
> Quote: Originally Posted by Jos http://www.usmessageboard.com/showthread.php?p=7102565#post7102565



Thank you.  Was it REALLY so hard to provide a link?  REALLY?  It proves your point.  I agree - it's a horrendous statement and it certainly sounds like Sherri is saying the Fogels deserved to be killed.  That's how I read it.

Congratulations.  You and Sherri can share the same bed of lack of concern for the deaths of innocents 



> Then Payback in your case will be a bitch too, wont it?



What payback?



> By his silence concerning the Fogel family at least he conceeds that not only was there NO sympathy or compassion but CELEBRATION!



I never read those posts before so I guess I was celebrating in ignorance then   Geez...no wonder I woke up with such a hang over - celebrating horrible statements in posts I never read.  Must have been a Time Warp...just a jump to the left....then a step to the right....



> That is how I will feel starting right now !!!!!



You celebrate murder?  Sweet.  I'll pass thank you.



> The above is me.  Pro Palestinians don't give a SHIT about what happened to that family?  Two can play that game!



Neither do you.  You are too busy labeling people "pro-Palestinians".



> RUTHIE FOGEL WAS A WAR CRIMINAL ILLEGAL SETTLER WHO TAUGHT LITTLE GIRLS In AN EXTREMIST SCHOOL TO BE TERRORISTS! What happened to her and the family who she placed in danger is an illustration of how we reap what we sow!Sheei justifies the brutal murder of two parents and 3 young children.



She sure does.  Now, I wonder if you'll condemn the likes of Rosie justifying the horrible murders of Baruch Goldstein?  I bet you won't but would love to be proved wrong   Then again - your strange silence about it must mean YOU AGREE .



> Let the board see how dark Sherri's heart is!



Oh...there are a lot of dark hearts here Ms. "I don't give a shit".


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## toastman (May 10, 2013)

Coyote said:


> proudveteran06 said:
> 
> 
> > The way you feel " I don't Give a Shit" is the same as saying " She deserved it" although a 10 year old would know the difference I feel the same way about that second remark "   We reap what we sow"
> ...



Darker than this:
http://www.usmessageboard.com/usmb-...itary-helicopter-crashes-2-pilots-killed.html

She thanked Jesus for the death of the two pilots. How can you defend that Coyote ?


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## Coyote (May 10, 2013)

toastman said:


> Coyote said:
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> > proudveteran06 said:
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I didn't. http://www.usmessageboard.com/6951201-post190.html

But there are those who think that the likes of Baruch Goldstein are defensible and I don't see anyone condemning those views.

There are those who "don't give a shit" when a young Arab woman is murdered because she's an Arab.  Is that defensable?


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## toastman (May 10, 2013)

Coyote said:


> toastman said:
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Absolutely NOT ! I never said that ! I'm not racist in any way, I don't know where you got that from 

But have you seen a pro - Israeli soldier starting a thread to thank God for dead Palestinians ?


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## toastman (May 10, 2013)

Also, I didn;t notice your post in that thread till you posted it now. My bad


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## Coyote (May 10, 2013)

toastman said:


> Coyote said:
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I wasn't saying you were - I was speaking of others specific statements.



> But have you seen a pro - Israeli soldier starting a thread to thank God for dead Palestinians ?



Nope.


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## proudveteran06 (May 11, 2013)

toastman said:


> Coyote said:
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Yawn.    In this Pro Palestinians World I'm supposed to care about Arab Women yet its Ok for a Pro Palestinian to post " she reaps what she sows" concerning the slaying of the entire family, Too bad the Racist doesn't care about Jews


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## proudveteran06 (May 11, 2013)

To the Pro Palestinian " I don't Give a Shit" is exactly the same as " she reaps what she sows" translation; She deserved it which I have been saying all along  Even a 10 year old would understand they're not the same. Notice how thers no condemnation of her remarks? There won't be; He's a hypocrite


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## Coyote (May 12, 2013)

proudveteran06 said:


> To the Pro Palestinian " I don't Give a Shit" is exactly the same as " she reaps what she sows" translation; She deserved it which I have been saying all along  Even a 10 year old would understand they're not the same. Notice how thers no condemnation of her remarks? There won't be; He's a hypocrite



It's the same.

Both of you think these murdered people are subhuman.  Keep making excuses, it doesn't change either your message or intent.

Btw - in terms of Sherri's remarks, they were removed via moderation.  I think that is condemnation enough.

Now are you going to keep flailing away at this trying to use Sherri's remarks to justify your own bigotry?  REALLY now?

It's a pity people can't seem to condemn the both of you for your vitriole.


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## SherriMunnerlyn (May 12, 2013)

Galatians 6:7-8

King James Version (KJV)7*Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.8*For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.<<<==>>>King James Version*(KJV)  http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?version=KJV&search=Galatians+6:7-8


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## irosie91 (May 12, 2013)

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> Galatians 6:7-8
> 
> King James Version (KJV)7*Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.8*For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.<<<==>>>King James Version*(KJV)  Galatians 6:7-8 KJV - Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for - Bible Gateway



Poor king james----he certainly cast a lot of pearls before swine


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## SherriMunnerlyn (May 12, 2013)

I believe the words written in my Bible to be true. I believe we reap what we sow. That does not make me a hater or make me see anyone as subhuman. Look at the story of David in the OT and his  family problems, I think that is an illustration of that principle as well.


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## Hossfly (May 12, 2013)

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> I believe the words written in my Bible to be true. I believe we reap what we sow. That does not make me a hater or make me see anyone as subhuman. Look at the story of David in the OT and his  family problems, I think that is an illustration of that principle as well.


If you are going to say that we reap what we sow, I wonder what your Muslim friends are sowing that makes many Muslim countries so poor that the people are impoverished and have to depend on the good graces of people giving money to relief organizations to help them..  Meanwhile, can Frau Sherri tell us what her fellow Christians are sowing that makes her Muslim friends want to murder them?


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## irosie91 (May 12, 2013)

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> I believe the words written in my Bible to be true. I believe we reap what we sow. That does not make me a hater or make me see anyone as subhuman. Look at the story of David in the OT and his  family problems, I think that is an illustration of that principle as well.




Sherri seems to think she wrote a  "bible" -----I am fascinated that she has chosen to 
plagiarize  that book which is  called the  "old testament"  in the USA  ---AND the talmud 
AND  the mishnah       Did you footnote your bible,    sherri?

The writings of  ancient  Israel/Judea are full of  poetic allusions to agriculture----
I know of no one  who has counted up----how many times that those related to 
the  "as you sow, you reap"    idea----but it does exist dozens of times ----the
in  various books of the bible including t'hiiilm    and even MORE in the midrash.. 
 I believe most people  would agree that the Midrash  is a reflection of 
 PHARASAICAL     Judaism-----   which inexplicably----sherri seems to have---
 in the past-----repudiated,,,   in favor of    isa-worship


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## proudveteran06 (May 12, 2013)

Coyote said:


> proudveteran06 said:
> 
> 
> > The way you feel " I don't Give a Shit" is the same as saying " She deserved it" although a 10 year old would know the difference I feel the same way about that second remark "   We reap what we sow"
> ...





  I already know " You don't Give a Shit".  That's why you never condemned that fake  " Christian" for her remarks.  Your " excuse"   You never saw it?   lol    It's funny how you managed to see mine.

    As stated before, there is a difference between stating " I don't Give a Shit" and " she reaps what she sows" ( even though that was not the original post I was referring to)  The fact that you DON'T condemn the latter or see the difference exemplifies your racism and bigotry.  

     Wasn't there another post where she thanked GOD because two Israeli pilots were killed?  (  I'm not sure)   I believe I am correct; Didn't see you condemn that either you Racist Anti Semetic Bigot


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## proudveteran06 (May 12, 2013)

Coyote said:


> proudveteran06 said:
> 
> 
> > To the Pro Palestinian " I don't Give a Shit" is exactly the same as " she reaps what she sows" translation; She deserved it which I have been saying all along  Even a 10 year old would understand they're not the same. Notice how thers no condemnation of her remarks? There won't be; He's a hypocrite
> ...





  It's a pity you have a Racist Bigoted Double Standard


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## Coyote (May 12, 2013)

proudveteran06 said:


> Coyote said:
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Maybe, Ms. _"I don't give a shit" when it's innocent young arab girls being murdered_ - you should consider reading before yapping? http://www.usmessageboard.com/6951201-post190.html - or maybe "you never saw it".

I think it sucks for any innocents to be murdered regardless of their ethnicity or religion.  No one life is more valuable than another.  Don't you think?


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## proudveteran06 (May 12, 2013)

Coyote said:


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There is a big difference between cheering like the " Christian Jew Hater" Sheri and " I don't give a Shit" The fact that you can't discern between the two is your problem. STILL haven't condemned her. That's because you're a racist bigot


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## SherriMunnerlyn (May 13, 2013)

proudveteran06 said:


> Coyote said:
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You are a human being who chooses to not give a shit about Arabs and who chooses to hate Muslims. Worlds of difference between me and you, I simply believe when bad things happen to people who are doing evil it, it illustrates the truth of words found in my Bible,  we reap what we sow. I do not see the full picture of anyones life, which does not end with physical death but I believe there is justice for every person that we would see if we could see the full picture of any persons life. It is hard to accept many things, I think about the hundreds of children Israel bombed and killed in Lebanon in 2006. There was a woman 8 months pregnant with twins, she was attacked and her unborn babies both killed. Where did I find solace for my soul over these deaths? Words about Heaven wriiten in a poem by a Sufi, he tried to imagine the unimaginable wonders God had in store in Heaven for children dying in wars. The poem is called All The Dead Children. http://ecstaticxchange.com/2012/12/15/poem-all-the-dead-children/  Notes that appear written by Daniel Moore about his poem.   Note: In 2003 this poem was written for all the dead children from our recent [and present] wars, for those children lost in Iraq, Palestine, Lebanon&#8230; But today we have just lost [and continue to lose] young innocent lives in a fit of madness again revealing the devastating psychic cracks in our society, be it from incessant crime shows, irrational gun romance, romanticized gangster rap&#8230; And these are just the tips of the icebergs&#8230;So now this poem is for the lost children (and adults) of Sandy Hook Elementary School in Connecticut, and all their loved ones, here and everywhere&#8230;http://ecstaticxchange.com/2012/12/15/poem-all-the-dead-children/


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## proudveteran06 (May 13, 2013)

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> proudveteran06 said:
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You are a fake " Christian " Jew Hater who not only does not give a SHIT about Jews but actually ENJOY when they are killed. Just two examples recently; the Israeli pilots and the Fogel Family. In looking for your post where you claimed she deserved it I found this one which isn't any better . You previously challenged me to prove my claim and I did . You lied saying she taught terrorism yet " she reaps what she sows?" Translation, SHE DESERVED IT!!! If it were up to the Arab World, EVERY Israeli Child would be dead! I'm wrong; EVERY ISRAELI would be DEAD. You have wished for Israel's anneliation yet I'm supposed to care about Arabs ?  Maybe you should take your own advice and care about Christians who are being enslaved and killed by Muslims . When the Arab World decides that Israel has the right to exist, when they start to have respect for Jewish life, maybe Ill reconsider. With your hate and hostility and hypocrisy your Bible isn't helping.


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## SherriMunnerlyn (May 13, 2013)

proudveteran06 said:


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Not interested in your filthy distortions of my words or your filthy beliefs about my belief in Jesus. I did not say what you claimed I said. Frankly, I think it all goes back to your rejection of Jesus as Messiah and hate of Christians. You should read Matthew 23 and the Gospel of John  Back to the thread, a tragic death occurred and a young child lost his mother. There likely will not even be anyone arrested and tried for the crime because when Arabs, especially women, are killed in Israel, Israel has no interest in punishing the killer. The Israeli authorities simply see all Arabs in the land as subhumans. Now, that is wrong.


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## Kondor3 (May 13, 2013)

Capstone said:


> Another story of violence from the very same website.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Really?

Two words in response...

Puh... leeeze...

Gimme a friggin' break...

Sheeesh...


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## ForeverYoung436 (May 13, 2013)

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> proudveteran06 said:
> 
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Do you find solace from that poem for the 82,000 people killed in Syria too?


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## SherriMunnerlyn (May 13, 2013)

ForeverYoung436 said:


> SherriMunnerlyn said:
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> 
> > proudveteran06 said:
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I think the poem has the power to console anyone hurting over the death of a child. I read it the first time on a blog of a Lebanese woman in 2006 during that 34 day war in which Israel killed over 400 children in Lebanon in airstrikes on civilians there. For the longest time, I thought it had been written specifically about those dying children in Lebanon, dying children I was reading about for 34 days. Some Christians would actually say to me, well better they die as a child, we know they are in heaven now. That comment did not help me at all. Memories come back to me of sleepless nights sitting on the swing on the porch crying over the children and crying out to GOd why and how long must this go on.  Last two paragraphs of All The Dead Children.  "Each time they clap their hands a new universe appears more fabulous than the last. And when they tire of such delights William Blake reads to them from his new work and Mozart comes in and plays them a tune on a million pianos."


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## proudveteran06 (May 13, 2013)

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> proudveteran06 said:
> 
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> > SherriMunnerlyn said:
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  Not interested in your bigotry, racism, or Anti Semitism.  I was right all along about your hate .  Your remark about our " rejection of jesus " says it all.  Do you feel the same way towards Muslims   lol      People have to believe YOUR way  ...No  That ONLY APPLIES TO THE JEWS, YOU BIGOT Wait...  We ALL know how you feel about Hindus, Buddhists, Atheists, Agnostics, etc, etc?  Of course not;  It's just the Jews. You DID say what I claim you said; My posts backs it up.

   Israel doesn't have any interest in punishing a killer of Arabs especially women, yet when the FOGEL FAMILY is murdered IN COLD BLOOD and those SAVAGES CHEER AND HAND OUT CANDY I'M SUPPOSED TO FEEL SORRY FOR THEM?  LIKE HELL I WILL !!!!



  Israelis see all Arabs as Subhuman yet Arabs live there  lol

  Let's see how Arabs think of Jews
Print Report

    Do you object to this?  Of course not.  Because you are a Hypocrite you " christian"


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## Coyote (May 13, 2013)

proudveteran06 said:


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No, it's because you don't read posts.


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## Lipush (May 13, 2013)

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> proudveteran06 said:
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You see Israelis as subhumans.

You are the last one to talk!


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## Coyote (May 13, 2013)

proudveteran06 said:


> Israel doesn't have any interest in punishing a killer of Arabs especially women, yet when the FOGEL FAMILY is murdered IN COLD BLOOD and those SAVAGES CHEER AND HAND OUT CANDY I'M SUPPOSED TO FEEL SORRY FOR THEM?  LIKE HELL I WILL !!!!



Was candy handed out when the Fogel family was killed?


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## Coyote (May 13, 2013)

Coyote said:


> proudveteran06 said:
> 
> 
> > Israel doesn't have any interest in punishing a killer of Arabs especially women, yet when the FOGEL FAMILY is murdered IN COLD BLOOD and those SAVAGES CHEER AND HAND OUT CANDY I'M SUPPOSED TO FEEL SORRY FOR THEM?  LIKE HELL I WILL !!!!
> ...



Never mind - answered my own question with wikipedia:
_
Palestinians threw stones at buses returning from the funeral of the victims.[75] Some Palestinian residents of the village of Awarta, who had previously clashed with settlers from Itamar for a number of years, denounced the killings.[14]

A paramedic interviewed in an Israeli newspaper stated that on the day of the attack, settlers saw fireworks and celebrations in nearby Palestinian communities.[76] In the Gaza Strip, the killings sparked celebrations in the city of Rafah, where Palestinians handed out candy and sweets on the streets. A resident described the celebrations as "a natural response to the harm settlers inflict on the Palestinian residents in the West Bank".[77][78]_​
Sad to see that kind of response   Nice though that others denounced it.  Wish there had been more.


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## Hossfly (May 13, 2013)

Coyote said:


> proudveteran06 said:
> 
> 
> > Israel doesn't have any interest in punishing a killer of Arabs especially women, yet when the FOGEL FAMILY is murdered IN COLD BLOOD and those SAVAGES CHEER AND HAND OUT CANDY I'M SUPPOSED TO FEEL SORRY FOR THEM?  LIKE HELL I WILL !!!!
> ...


Yes.

Gaza celebrates; Fayyad condemns terror attack - Israel News, Ynetnews


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## SherriMunnerlyn (May 13, 2013)

Hossfly said:


> Coyote said:
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> > proudveteran06 said:
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Now, why would anyone believe a propaganda site like that? But the Fogels they were war criminal illegal settlers,  stealing and killing their way of life,, the war criminal mother teaching girls to be terrorists in an extremist religious school. The living children are better off without parents like that, the same way that little girl whose daddy was killed after carrying out a bombing Iin Boston is.  I read before Itmar they were illegal settlers in Gaza, they were among the most extreme of the illegal settlers!


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## proudveteran06 (May 13, 2013)

Taste the Murder Candy | Human Events


American Power: Palestinians Celebrate Horrific Murder of Jewish Family in West Bank Itamar Settlement


Palestinians Celebrate Brutal Murder of the Jewish Fogel Family | Habledash


   Did the Palestinians REALLY Celebrate their killings and the infants beheadings with Candy?    Naaaaa...  Just making it up just like I lied about what that Jew Hating " christian" Sheri said.   

   I'm supposed to have " empathy" and feel bad even if they are killed by their own??  for these people?  I will, when HELL BLOWS OVER !


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## Hossfly (May 13, 2013)

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> Hossfly said:
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I forgot to add this link with the other propaganda site. No MEMRI here.

Palestinian TV airs show praising Fogel family murderer - Israel News | Haaretz Daily Newspaper


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## SherriMunnerlyn (May 13, 2013)

Hossfly said:


> SherriMunnerlyn said:
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As I explained, the Fogels were no different than the Boston bomber, when war criminals are killed some shall celebrate! But the fact some do, does not mean all do.


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## Hossfly (May 13, 2013)

SherriMunnerlyn said:


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Surely you jest!


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## Coyote (May 13, 2013)

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> Hossfly said:
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The Boston Bombers set off two nail/shrapnel bombs in a public event that killed 3 people and seriously maimed and injured over a hundred more including many children by the way.

What exactly did the Fogel's do?


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## irosie91 (May 13, 2013)

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> sherri  (in support of the murder of the fogel family)
> 
> Now, why would anyone believe a propaganda site like that? But the Fogels they were war criminal illegal settlers,  stealing and killing their way of life,, the war criminal mother teaching girls to be terrorists in an extremist religious school. The living children are better off without parents like that, the same way that little girl whose daddy was killed after carrying out a bombing Iin Boston is.  I read before Itmar they were illegal settlers in Gaza, they were among the most extreme of the illegal settlers!




     irosie>> 
       I was introduced to the sherri philosophy very long ago---more 
       then 40 years ago---in a mosque which was located walking 
       distance  from the site where the World Trade Center would 
       later be built----  friday in a mosque---it happened to be  GOOD 
       FRIDAY----a school holiday in New York City  (and for me--
       a college student then)    The LEARNED special guest Imam 
       spoke about  good friday >>>  
                     "DIRTY LIE"    "WRITTEN BY PERVERSE LIARS" 
                     "THE ENEMEEEEES OF ISLAAAAAM  

           there were lots of little boys----sitting on the floor next 
           to their fathers----who nodded at every filthy word

I am glad I am not sherri-----I did not think that someone should 
slit the throats of the imam--the fathers and half the kids.   What 
I was thinking is that the Imam was engendering violence---that 
at least a few of those kids would grow up to kill  
"THE ENEMEEEEEES OF ISLAAAAAM"      I saw the creed of the 
isa-respecters who have already murdered in the hundreds 
of millions   under the tutelege of people like that imam and 
sherri ---
 and I saw that creed again-----some 30 years later    as isa-
respecters slammed two planes into the World Trade center 
for the sake of murdering   "THE PERVERSE LIARS" 
   "THE ENEMEEEES OF ISLAAAAM"   (a few thousand more---on 
the vast pile of dead in the name of the creed sherri touts)

   I find it interesting that sherri mentions the welfare of the kids---
   In her creed----the orphans of people murdered in the name 
   of isa-----can be salvaged by becoming slaves to isa-respecters 
   along with forced conversion to  the isa-respecting creed.   
   The  "dhimmi orphan law"  is justified as sherri justifies it 
   as  "for the welfare of children and compassion toward orphans"
   Thousands of sudanese christians are STILL THAT LUCKY in 
    Khartoum


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## proudveteran06 (May 13, 2013)

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> Hossfly said:
> 
> 
> > SherriMunnerlyn said:
> ...



 The Fogels were " War Criminals?"  You previously stated she taught terrorism to young girls.  Link please, you fake , phoney " christian".  I asked you to provide the link when you stated " she deserved it" and of course you didn't.

     By your own admission there was celebration yet Israelis and Jews are supposed to feel  SORROW, COMPASSION, AND EMPATHY towards Arabs?   I will... When Hell freezes over


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## Coyote (May 13, 2013)

irosie91 said:


> SherriMunnerlyn said:
> 
> 
> > sherri  (in support of the murder of the fogel family)
> ...



Considering that you excused the actions of Baruch Goldstein, I have to wonder if there is any substantial difference between your view and Sherri's view that the Fogels were killed in a "reap what you sow" sort of rationale.


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## proudveteran06 (May 13, 2013)

Quote: Originally Posted by SherriMunnerlyn View Post 

sherri (in support of the murder of the fogel family)

Now, why would anyone believe a propaganda site like that? But the Fogels they were war criminal illegal settlers, stealing and killing their way of life,, the war criminal mother teaching girls to be terrorists in an extremist religious school. The living children are better off without parents like that, the same way that little girl whose daddy was killed after carrying out a bombing Iin Boston is. I read before Itmar they were illegal settlers in Gaza, they were among the most extreme of the illegal settlers!


 No condemnation from the Racist Bigoted Pro Palestinian here  !!!


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## Coyote (May 13, 2013)

proudveteran06 said:


> SherriMunnerlyn said:
> 
> 
> > Hossfly said:
> ...



I suspect that's how many Palestinians feel towards Israeli's as well, particularly after the brutal Cave of Patriarchs massacre.


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## Lipush (May 13, 2013)

Hold your horses, did I see it right? Did Sherri just compared the boston bombers to the Fogels???

So Sherri does believe that a butchered 3 months old _baby_ is the same as guilty as the ones who bombed innocent American civilians?

Are you _kidding_ me?!?!?!?!


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## Lipush (May 13, 2013)

Coyote said:


> proudveteran06 said:
> 
> 
> > SherriMunnerlyn said:
> ...



Baruch Goldstein, Jacob Titel, and Natan Zadah are a stain on our nation.

But we are not to be judged by their actions. in Israel there are many who act for misunderstanding between the nations, and _they _are the ones to be looked at.


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## SherriMunnerlyn (May 13, 2013)

Coyote said:


> SherriMunnerlyn said:
> 
> 
> > Hossfly said:
> ...



They lived on stolen land as war criminals and Ruthie Fogel taught girls to be terrorists in an extremist religious school.


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## SherriMunnerlyn (May 13, 2013)

Lipush said:


> Hold your horses, did I see it right? Did Sherri just compared the boston bombers to the Fogels???
> 
> So Sherri does believe that a butchered 3 months old _baby_ is the same as guilty as the ones who bombed innocent American civilians?
> 
> Are you _kidding_ me?!?!?!?!



The parents are most responsible for their deaths, putting their lives in danger the way they did.


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## Lipush (May 13, 2013)

proudveteran06 said:


> SherriMunnerlyn said:
> 
> 
> > Hossfly said:
> ...



She never backed up this claim, which is offensive to me as an Israeli.

The Fogels were a civilian family. 3 of them were children under the age of 12.

I have yet to hear any condemning from Sherri's part regarding them. She basically said they deserved it.

Yet she asks me why I do not have more sympathy with her twisted views.

The heart of Israel cries every single day for our precious Tamar.

_God bless her_


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## irosie91 (May 13, 2013)

Coyote said:


> proudveteran06 said:
> 
> 
> > SherriMunnerlyn said:
> ...


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## Lipush (May 13, 2013)

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> > Hold your horses, did I see it right? Did Sherri just compared the boston bombers to the Fogels???
> ...



By that way of thinking, if (HaShem yerachem) your children die in a car crash, it's your fault for giving them a drivers license.


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## Lipush (May 13, 2013)

So living on "occupied" land is the same as putting a bomb and hurting over 100 people?

_Really?_


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## SherriMunnerlyn (May 13, 2013)

Settlers regularly carry out acts like this, as well.

Terrorist Israeli colonists of the Illegal colony Havat Ma'on set fire to two dunums of wheat owned by the farmer Ali Awad from south Hebron Hills. Citizens and shepherds who were in the area put out the fire before extending to other fields around 

Archive pic shows Palestinian wheat in fire by colonists


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## Lipush (May 13, 2013)

Don't you love to say "you reap what you sow"?

When killing their friends, you expect the settlers not to react?

How does your own reason work for you?


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## SherriMunnerlyn (May 13, 2013)

Lipush said:


> SherriMunnerlyn said:
> 
> 
> > Lipush said:
> ...



People do not issue drivers license to their children where I live. And driving a car is not the same as taking your family to live as illegal settlers on land that belongs to another people. I think the proper word for the settlers is terrorists, looking at their egregious violations of intl law. Settlements in the OPT are a terrorist enterprise.


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## Coyote (May 13, 2013)

irosie91 said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > proudveteran06 said:
> ...


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## Lipush (May 13, 2013)

Should I sue my family for raising me in southern Israel? because of the rockets?

Yeah, _that_ makes sense!

By the way, from whom was America taken, Sherri?


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## Coyote (May 13, 2013)

Lipush said:


> proudveteran06 said:
> 
> 
> > SherriMunnerlyn said:
> ...



Sherri's no worse than other twisted views who justify rather than condemn Baruch Goldstein's massacre.


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## SherriMunnerlyn (May 13, 2013)

Lipush said:


> proudveteran06 said:
> 
> 
> > SherriMunnerlyn said:
> ...



Girls At War, I provided that link to that article many times. To think about what they are teaching those girls every day in those schools. God only knows what monsters they shall grow into. Then we shall see one day Israel really reaping what she has sown with her terrorists war criminal illegal settler enterprise in Occupied Palestine.  I cannot wait to see it.


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## SherriMunnerlyn (May 13, 2013)

Coyote said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> > proudveteran06 said:
> ...



Well, of course you are entitled to your opinion, as we all are.


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## Lipush (May 13, 2013)

Coyote said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> > proudveteran06 said:
> ...



And not better, either


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## Coyote (May 13, 2013)

Lipush said:


> Hold your horses, did I see it right? Did Sherri just compared the boston bombers to the Fogels???
> 
> So Sherri does believe that a butchered 3 months old _baby_ is the same as guilty as the ones who bombed innocent American civilians?
> 
> Are you _kidding_ me?!?!?!?!



No kidding.


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## Lipush (May 13, 2013)

Thanks for clearing that up.


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## Coyote (May 13, 2013)

Lipush said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Lipush said:
> ...



Didn't say it was.

But I notice a distinct difference.

A good number of people are, justifiably aghast that the Fogels are being put in the same category as a terrorist who murdered and maimed a lot of innocent people.  What ever the Fogel's political and personal views may have been - they did not kill or attack or maim a single person.

Yet, we also have on this thread another poster attempting to justify and excuse an equally horrendous mass murder *and not a word of condemnation.*

So why is that?


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## Lipush (May 13, 2013)

I do not know.

I do know, though, that most Israelis feel disgusted and unconnected to that massacre. In his actions, Goldstein went against everything Judaism is supposed to stand for.

And we all know that.


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## Coyote (May 13, 2013)

Lipush said:


> I do not know.
> 
> I do know, though, that most Israelis feel disgusted and unconnected to that massacre. In his actions, Goldstein went against everything Judaism is supposed to stand for.
> 
> And we all know that.



Yes - the mainstream Israeli public and government absolutely denounced it.  A number of settlers though, commended it and Goldstein as a hero.  In many ways, the settles seem more like the Palistinians than Israeli's.


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## Hossfly (May 13, 2013)

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> Settlers regularly carry out acts like this, as well.
> 
> Terrorist Israeli colonists of the Illegal colony Havat Ma'on set fire to two dunums of wheat owned by the farmer Ali Awad from south Hebron Hills. Citizens and shepherds who were in the area put out the fire before extending to other fields around
> 
> Archive pic shows Palestinian wheat in fire by colonists


It's a rotten shame! Those beautifu amber waves of grain being destroyed and only the weeds and rocks remain. Unforgiveable!


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## Lipush (May 13, 2013)

Coyote said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> > I do not know.
> ...



I agree, but to a point. a big point that is


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## Coyote (May 13, 2013)

Hossfly said:


> SherriMunnerlyn said:
> 
> 
> > Settlers regularly carry out acts like this, as well.
> ...



Olive trees.


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## Hossfly (May 13, 2013)

Coyote said:


> Hossfly said:
> 
> 
> > SherriMunnerlyn said:
> ...


Oh! You mean the teeny,weenie little trees between the Jeeps? I couldn't see them for all the waist high wheet Sherri said were on 2 dunums of field.


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## SherriMunnerlyn (May 13, 2013)

The Irony in the Fogel case is it was likely a disgruntled migrant worker who killed them, not even Palestinians. It is like the hate for Palestinians, in particilar the settlers who embrace religious extremism,  extends outwards to encompass all nonJews. And I have heard the plight of the migrant worker discussed and it appears to be even worse then that of the Palestinians. Many are raped or killed before they even make it to Israel and there they exist as essentially slaves, forbidden from marrying or having children even, forbidden from changing jobs, so they are slaves of whoever they come to work for. A life so devoid of freedom, it seems obvious some might turn on their masters and respond to the injustices they live with with violence. I do not want to justify it, but understanding why they might do such a thing, I am fully capable of doing.


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## Coyote (May 13, 2013)

Hossfly said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Hossfly said:
> ...



Picture may not show much, but settler violence and vandalism of Palestinian agriculture is well documented.  It doesn't matter if it doesn't look like much to those use to well irrigated agriculture in good soil - it is to the people who live on it.


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## irosie91 (May 13, 2013)

what is that picture supposed to show us----
it is OBVIOUSLY not a wheat field and where 
are the  "olive trees"?     I see a field of what 
we in my  town  (usa---kinda suburb rural)   called 
SCRUB  -----some scraggly green weeds.   Someone 
actually was stupid enough to try to get a plow 
over those jutting rocks?     I agree an olive tree 
could survive somewhere between those rocks----but 
where is it?


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## SherriMunnerlyn (May 13, 2013)

Hossfly said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Hossfly said:
> ...



I actually think the photo is of a similar incident, not of the particular incident that was just reported as happening within the last week or so. 

Crops are destroyed, trees are destroyed, it is what Palestinians experience at the hands of the illegal settlers every day.


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## Hossfly (May 13, 2013)

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> The Irony in the Fogel case is it was likely a disgruntled migrant worker who killed them, not even Palestinians. It is like the hate for Palestinians, in particilar the settlers who embrace religious extremism,  extends outwards to encompass all nonJews. And I have heard the plight of the migrant worker discussed and it appears to be even worse then that of the Palestinians. Many are raped or killed before they even make it to Israel and there they exist as essentially slaves, forbidden from marrying or having children even, forbidden from changing jobs, so they are slaves of whoever they come to work for. A life so devoid of freedom, it seems obvious some might turn on their masters and respond to the injustices they live with with violence. I do not want to justify it, but understanding why they might do such a thing, I am fully capable of doing.


Since Samer got out of jail and joined Weight Watchers, you can start a new cause on Facebook. (Free the unjustly convicted victims in the Fogel case). Snap to it Sherri, get 'er done!


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## SherriMunnerlyn (May 13, 2013)

Samer Issawi is presently suffering medical negligence in his medical treatment provided by his Zionist jailors, and suffered a serious head injury as a result. Just read about it from his sister on Facebook. I think he has been taken back to a hospital, only time will tell whether Israel will kill him in their illegal prisons or not before his agreed upon release day arrives.


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## irosie91 (May 13, 2013)

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> The Irony in the Fogel case is it was likely a disgruntled migrant worker who killed them, not even Palestinians. It is like the hate for Palestinians, in particilar the settlers who embrace religious extremism,  extends outwards to encompass all nonJews. And I have heard the plight of the migrant worker discussed and it appears to be even worse then that of the Palestinians. Many are raped or killed before they even make it to Israel and there they exist as essentially slaves, forbidden from marrying or having children even, forbidden from changing jobs, so they are slaves of whoever they come to work for. A life so devoid of freedom, it seems obvious some might turn on their masters and respond to the injustices they live with with violence. I do not want to justify it, but understanding why they might do such a thing, I am fully capable of doing.





sherri's post is not a complete lie-----she told a true story --but 
she made a little error on  PLACE ----she described the life of  
imported workers in  arab lands.     None of it applies to israel 
at all      Violence against israeli employers does occur---at the 
hands of isa-respecting jihadists      She does raise an interesting 
point that reminds me of some experiences my son had while 
in the Navy----when they docked  at some of the  EMIRATES. 

My kid was brought up with a bit of India---cuisine as an 
infant----he loved Dhal----(weird but true)  ---and then for 
a time his baby sitter was a hindu grandma----who also 
cared for her grandchildren---nice arrangement for cultural 
diversity----they did hindu ceremonies every day. ---thus he 
knows a hindu when he sees one and really liked to introduce 
his shipmates to Indian food----so he looked around---noticed 
hindu workers and asked for the local indian restaurant-----
the poor hindu was HORRIFIED and gasped  "RAMADAN" 
The boys and the man talked after my kid revealed his---
"background"  ----he told them the conditions under which 
hindu workers lived in the emirati.----inspiring the texan 
sailor to  murmur  "shoot---we treat our mexicans better 
than that"   The hindu tried to slip the boys a few 
samosas ---surreptitiously-----but the boys decided 
to return to the ship---afraid that the hindu would be shot. 
----after a few times in the emirati---he came to the 
conclusion that if  the hindus would someday just go 
on a  SIT -  DOWN strike----those countries 
would fold within three days-----he never saw an arab 
doing any work at all

As to Israel---the only danger foreign workers face is 
arab muslim violence       One of them got ripped 
to pieces ---some 20 yards from my kid as he talked 
to me on the phone-----from sderot.     Interestingly 
enough      he was the guest of a family-----the 
wife/mother-----being a former foreign worker in 
israel      I know of several such marriages------I wonder 
from where  sherri gets her  "information"


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## proudveteran06 (May 13, 2013)

Coyote said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...





 Here we go again;  The Bigoted Racist Pro Palestinian who ignores what Sheri says and refuses to condemn.  There is a big difference between saying " I don't give a SHIT" and stating "she deserved it" ( couldn't find it) or " she reaps what she sows!)   found that one.   Get it now?  Of course not.


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## proudveteran06 (May 13, 2013)

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> The Irony in the Fogel case is it was likely a disgruntled migrant worker who killed them, not even Palestinians. It is like the hate for Palestinians, in particilar the settlers who embrace religious extremism,  extends outwards to encompass all nonJews. And I have heard the plight of the migrant worker discussed and it appears to be even worse then that of the Palestinians. Many are raped or killed before they even make it to Israel and there they exist as essentially slaves, forbidden from marrying or having children even, forbidden from changing jobs, so they are slaves of whoever they come to work for. A life so devoid of freedom, it seems obvious some might turn on their masters and respond to the injustices they live with with violence. I do not want to justify it, but understanding why they might do such a thing, I am fully capable of doing.




Palestinian TV airs show praising Fogel family murderer - Israel News | Haaretz Daily Newspaper


" Migrant Workers" killed them now?   That's a new one!







related articles


Thousands attend memorial for slain Fogel family, vow to continue West Bank settlement

 By Chaim Levinson	  |  Feb.18,2013 | 1:47 AM 

Palestinian television aired an interview with the relatives of the Fogel family murderers earlier this month, praising the two cousins convicted with the brutal attack as "heroes." 

The broadcast was aired as part of a weekly show on the Palestinian state-run station called "For You," which focuses on Palestinian prisoners incarcerated in Israel. 

The show featured the aunt and mother of Hakim Awad, who along with his cousin Amjad was convicted of brutally stabbing to death five Fogel family members in an attack on their home in the West Bank settlement of Itamar on the night of March 11, 2011. 

Hakim Awad's mother sent her regards to her son, proudly describing him as the perpetrator of the Itamar attack and that he was sentenced to 5 consecutive life sentences. 

Awad's aunt then proceeded to describe her nephew as a "hero and a legend." 

The unusual broadcast was reported by the Israel-based media watchdog organization Palestinian Media Watch 

Late last year Amjad Awad was convicted of the murdering Ehud and Ruth Fogel, along with three of their young child-ren, Yoav, 11, Elad, 4, and Hadas, 3 months old, before fleeing the scene. His cousin Hakim was convicted a month earlier. Both men were sentenced to five consecutive life sentences by an IDF court. 


  They got the PALESTINIAN SAVAGES who did this.  Keep justifying it you " christian ' racist, bigoted Jew Hater.   See nothing wrong with handing out Candy?   

         When that toddler found his mother I didn't  ' Give a Shit" but unlike you I didn't celebrate.   Thanks to you and your " god" I changed my mind.  I will celebrate.   " religion" has unforseen consequences.


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## SherriMunnerlyn (May 13, 2013)

proudveteran06 said:


> SherriMunnerlyn said:
> 
> 
> > The Irony in the Fogel case is it was likely a disgruntled migrant worker who killed them, not even Palestinians. It is like the hate for Palestinians, in particilar the settlers who embrace religious extremism,  extends outwards to encompass all nonJews. And I have heard the plight of the migrant worker discussed and it appears to be even worse then that of the Palestinians. Many are raped or killed before they even make it to Israel and there they exist as essentially slaves, forbidden from marrying or having children even, forbidden from changing jobs, so they are slaves of whoever they come to work for. A life so devoid of freedom, it seems obvious some might turn on their masters and respond to the injustices they live with with violence. I do not want to justify it, but understanding why they might do such a thing, I am fully capable of doing.
> ...



May God have mercy on your soul. And I hope the children who lived shall not grow up to be terrorists like their parents were. At least that migrant worker removed those children who lived from the deadly influence of their parents.


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## SherriMunnerlyn (May 13, 2013)

After a quick lunch in Nablus hosted generously by our friend Dr. Saed Abuhijleh, we drove the short distance to Awarta. We enter the rich valley from the Western side and past the Israeli military camp and notice the colonial Jewish settlements dotting the hilltops around the valley. The native village of 6000 brave souls is on the slope to north side of the valley and villagers have to face this scene of growing colonial settlements on their lands. The main colonial settlement built on stolen village lands is called by Jewish settlers Itamar. Over 12,000 dunums (4000 acres) of Awarta&#8217;s lands were already taken by this colony inhabited by the most rabid and fanatical of Jewish settlers. Two Palestinians from Awarta were killed for coming within 500 meters of the fortified fencing of this colony. This is one of the many reasons why we are very convinced that the whole story about the killing of a settler family by two teenagers from the village of Awarta is a lie. But the killing of these settlers set stage for a ransacking of the village by the colonizing army of the state of Israel. Beating people, massive destruction, torture and more was inflicted on the village of 6000 people as collective punishment. It is hard to describe what we saw and heard. The video just reveals a glimpse of it.  The village has already suffered repeated attacks from settlers in the past. Just last year, settlers and soldiers executed (shot at close range) two youths (18 and 19 year old cousins Salah and Muhamad Qawariq) who were working their agricultural field. Villagers asked us why there was no outrage and no one held accountable in any of these atrocities. We are all 100% convinced that that the settler family was not killed by the Palestinian teenagers that are claimed as culprits by the Israeli authorities. The story the colonial army gave is so full of holes that it is simply not plausible. Things that do not make sense:-Why would two young teenagers not involved in politics, one of them a straight A student in his last year of high school and the other a westernized rapper enjoying his life decide to do such a thing? Killing children is especially not tolerated in our culture no matter what?-How could such a pair manage to bypass one of the most heavily guarded and secured colonies in the WB. How would they cut through the electrified security fence and its other barriers in a settlement that brags that it is the most secure of Jewish colonies in the West bank. How could two strangers manage to stay in the settlement for two hours and even go back to the same house supposedly after leaving to get an M-16 gun that happened to be just sitting there in a bedroom (army story)?-Why would two people who committed such a crime go back to studying and enjoying their lives for days even after one of them was arrested, questioned for 10 hours and released? Why not run away?-There were reports in Israeli papers that a Thai worker who has not been paid thousands of shekels as being involved but then this suddenly disappeared from print. Why?-What of the villagers&#8217; contention that this whole incident is calculated to acquire 1000 more dunums of their lands?-Why did Israeli authorities not allow media scrutiny of what was really happening?-Why did Israeli authorities not allow independent investigation or International protection or presence to witness what was really going on?-Why would the two young people be denied access to lawyers and family visits?These and hundreds of other questions poured out from the villagers. I was particularly shocked to hear from Um Adam, a 77 year old grandmother (14 living children, over 75 grandchildren). She herself was arrested with hundreds of others and forced (like all of them) to take a DNA test and to put her fingerprints on a document in Hebrew that she does not read. She, like hundreds, was not allowed access to lawyers during their detention. 14 of her children and grandchildren are still kidnapped by the colonial soldiers. One of her Children still held by the Israelis is the volunteer head of the Municipal council. Another child is the only doctor in town. The homes of these two children, her home, and many other homes were ransacked and heavily damaged (the fascist soldiers had clearly come to destroy as an act of collective punishment). The doctor&#8217;s room and his medical books and supplies were not spared. While we visited nearly three weeks after the damage and after much of the houses were tidied-up with help of international volunteers, we still could see significant evidence of the damages. To punish a whole village in such a fashion reminds us of the worst regimes in history.   [ame]http://palsolidarity.org/2011/04/visit-to-awarta/[/ame]


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## SherriMunnerlyn (May 13, 2013)

What a tragedy? Kids tortured into making false confessions after their village has been terrorized! Young children killed, some siblings left to grow up with their grandparents. All of it a situation created by Zionism and Occupation!


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## irosie91 (May 13, 2013)

Gee----sherri has so little respect for  her fellow isa- 
respecters that she insists that  the UM-JIHADIST 
heroes       are filthy stinking liars for taking credit 
on behalf of their offspring for the brutal murders that 
sherri insists were actually  enacted by unknown  
"migrant workers".    Reminds me of Achmadinejad 
who insisted that  Iranians were rioting in the streets 
because  britishers told them to do it so they are 
so stupid----they simply DID IT----and then there are 
the syrians   KILLING each other    because Israelis told 
them to do it


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## SherriMunnerlyn (May 13, 2013)




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## SherriMunnerlyn (May 13, 2013)

irosie91 said:


> Gee----sherri has so little respect for  her fellow isa-
> respecters that she insists that  the UM-JIHADIST
> heroes       are filthy stinking liars for taking credit
> on behalf of their offspring for the brutal murders that
> ...



Torturing Palestinians into making false confessions is a way of life for Zionists and very common. The phenomena  of false confessions is so widespread you can get degrees in the study of this phenomena in the US. I recall the story Bassem Tamimi told and of how he was almost tortured to death when Israelis tried to get him to falsely confess to killing settlers. He has permanent physical injuries from those torture sessions that almost took his life. But he did not confess to the crime he did not commit. In Awarta, they were boys who were tortured into making false confessions.


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## Hossfly (May 13, 2013)

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> proudveteran06 said:
> 
> 
> > SherriMunnerlyn said:
> ...


I think there are many posters and even viewers who would say to you, "May God have mercy on your soul."  Innocent people are being killed by your friends every day of the week in different locales, and you close your eyes to all this to continue on with your bashing of Israel and the Jews practically around the clock in different places on the Internet.  The thing that civilized people are worried about is that the children of your friends do not grow up to be terrorists just like their parents.

http://www.terrorism-info.org.il/Data/articles/Art_20511/E_069_13_65283962.pdf


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## Hossfly (May 13, 2013)

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> irosie91 said:
> 
> 
> > Gee----sherri has so little respect for  her fellow isa-
> ...


Just because someone claimed they were tortured, does it make it so?  You have to laugh at Frau Sherri saying that torturing to get false confessions is widespread.  Of course we know that Frau Sherri laps up anything that is said derogatory about the Israelis no matter how untrue it probably is.  However, it sounds more like Frau Sherri is describing what happens in the countries of her friends.     Meanwhile, Frau Sherri seems to have no problem with the actual torture of Christians and Muslims in  Syria that is going on, no even when it involves children.  Say, Frau Sherri, are you keeping track of that American Christian Pastor who is being beaten up in an Iranian prison.  I hope you are starting a Facebook page to have him released, being the good Christian you want us to believe you are.


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## irosie91 (May 13, 2013)

Hossfly said:


> SherriMunnerlyn said:
> 
> 
> > irosie91 said:
> ...




Sherri is right    prison torture is so PREVALENT  that one can study 
it in the USA -----in fact I have.     I have listened to hundreds of 
PRISON TORTURE stories and ---evaluated the claims  INTRICATELY 
including the permanent injuries----like     "I SEE DOUBLE" 
or-----"I DO NOT REMEMBER MY NAME"     I was so impressed with 
one story that I INSISTED on examining the prison-----where I found 
out that   "HARD LABOR"   consists---or reading magazines---
standing around in groups----of like 10-15   and one guy 
leaning on a broomhandle.

never underestimate the  "HANDCUFFS WERE TOO TIGHT"
it is a fact that there is a small sensory nerve----that provides 
for sensation in the lateral aspect of the thumb that is 
sometimes compressed leading to temporary numbness---
it usually clears in a few weeks ------but the complaint 
can last  FOREVER

  thanks for the laughs,   sherri


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## Lipush (May 14, 2013)

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> Samer Issawi is presently suffering medical negligence in his medical treatment provided by his Zionist jailors



This is me crying hysterically


----------



## SherriMunnerlyn (May 14, 2013)




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## SherriMunnerlyn (May 14, 2013)

This discussion about how posters feel about the dead is getting boring, it seems like the same conversation is being repeated over and over and over. Who cares? What does it matter? Why waste our time speaking of the dead, while there are living humans suffering human rights abuses? I think generally all of this can be summed up by saying generally people see good people as dying as bad and bad people dying as good. And we all judge good and bad from the perspectives of our lives and life experiences. There is not a universal right or wrong way to look at any of it.


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## SherriMunnerlyn (May 14, 2013)

irosie91 said:


> what's your point sherri?      those lumps of excrement rioters should
> try that  crap in New Jersey----keep the undertakers busy



Beating up protestors and attacking them with tear gas is a picture of Zionism in action.


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## irosie91 (May 14, 2013)

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> irosie91 said:
> 
> 
> > what's your point sherri?      those lumps of excrement rioters should
> ...




take another look    No one was beaten and tear gas is so benign that 
kids in basic training get it thrown at them regularly in the USA  military---
there were a whole bunch of thugs of the isa-excrement worshipping 
variety----threatening the security people and refusing to comply with 
directions      they should try that crap in New Jersey  where no cop is 
under  6' 6"       They would not just get encouraged to move by gentle 
shoves as those security people were doing in the video----that would get 
swinging cop clubs smashed on their idiot heads and if they picked up rocks--
they would get bullets in return.    ALSO   the whole pile of excrement 
would end up in jail


----------



## irosie91 (May 14, 2013)

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> This discussion about how posters feel about the dead is getting boring, it seems like the same conversation is being repeated over and over and over. Who cares? What does it matter? Why waste our time speaking of the dead, while there are living humans suffering human rights abuses? I think generally all of this can be summed up by saying generally people see good people as dying as bad and bad people dying as good. And we all judge good and bad from the perspectives of our lives and life experiences. There is not a universal right or wrong way to look at any of it.





Sherri has finally admitted that her constant retelling of the  
1500  children myth is annoying dull and idiotic   ----how 
many times has she told us of   1500   cases of  gazan parents 
making sure their kids die either by killing them or throwing 
them under bombs  -----just in order to collect the  
  **** "SHAHID BONUS" *****    and lots of candy.
I don't blame them----they were nurtured on filth ---
victims of   the ISA WORSHIP CREED----the dancers on 
the  dead bodies of the hundreds of millions of their victims


----------



## SherriMunnerlyn (May 14, 2013)

irosie91 said:


> SherriMunnerlyn said:
> 
> 
> > This discussion about how posters feel about the dead is getting boring, it seems like the same conversation is being repeated over and over and over. Who cares? What does it matter? Why waste our time speaking of the dead, while there are living humans suffering human rights abuses? I think generally all of this can be summed up by saying generally people see good people as dying as bad and bad people dying as good. And we all judge good and bad from the perspectives of our lives and life experiences. There is not a universal right or wrong way to look at any of it.
> ...



This has nothing to do with the fatality counts, all of those 1500 children Israel killed are named on multiple websites of human rights groups, Btselem and rememberthesechildren and dci palestine and others. I was addressing our attitudes about the dead.


----------



## irosie91 (May 14, 2013)

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> irosie91 said:
> 
> 
> > SherriMunnerlyn said:
> ...



   oh     "NAMED"     so your attitude toward the murder of hundreds of 
   millions is------"if they are not named on some web sites----they do not count"

                I am not surprised-----it is the  isa creed at work.    No wonder 
                gleeful   fat  isa loving saudis spend millions in las vegas whilst 
                the children of  their kith and kin languish in the dust and gutters 
                thruout asia and africa  dying of starvation-----no -websites 
                               NAME them


----------



## SherriMunnerlyn (May 14, 2013)

irosie91 said:


> SherriMunnerlyn said:
> 
> 
> > irosie91 said:
> ...



What I said is simply that Israel has killed over 1500 children in Palestine since 2000 and their names and how Israel killed them is addressed by multiple  human rights groups to include Btselem and DCI Palestine and rememberthesechildren.


----------



## SherriMunnerlyn (May 14, 2013)

B'Tselem - Statistics - Fatalities http://rememberthesechildren.org/remember2012.html http://www.dci-pal.org/ http://www.dci-palestine.org/content/child-fatalities http://www.ifamericansknew.org/stats/children.html


----------



## SherriMunnerlyn (May 14, 2013)

Ten Palestinian children were killed and at least 20 were wounded on Thursday morning after an Israeli truck carrying a fuel tank crashed into the school bus transporting the kindergarten children near the Qalandia checkpoint in Ramallah.Israelis on Facebook were celebrating the deaths of the Palestinian children, writing derogatory statements on a wall of a news post regarding the accident.  http://occupiedpalestine.wordpress....h-of-palestinian-children-killed-in-accident/


----------



## irosie91 (May 14, 2013)

liar


----------



## SherriMunnerlyn (May 14, 2013)

Some people celebrate when others die.


----------



## irosie91 (May 14, 2013)

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> Some people celebrate when others die.



that is true-----in fact  millions of muslims celebrated the  9-11-01
 event ----not just crazed individuals sifted out of much larger populations--
 WHOLE POPULATIONS   including  the leaders and --both political and 
 religious


----------



## SherriMunnerlyn (May 14, 2013)

irosie91 said:


> SherriMunnerlyn said:
> 
> 
> > Some people celebrate when others die.
> ...



As I proved. Israelis celebrate when Palestinian children die. That likely explains why the IDF keeps deliberately killing Palestinian children. Israelis support and celebrate these child killings.


----------



## Hossfly (May 14, 2013)

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> irosie91 said:
> 
> 
> > SherriMunnerlyn said:
> ...


Frau Sherri never wants to admit that it is her friends who deliberately target children  in so many different places in the world.  I wonder if Frau Sherri can type with a straight face and tell us that when her friends are suicide bombing or car bombings others that they absolutely know there are no children in the vicinity who will be wounded and killed.

BBC News - Gun attack in Thailand's south leaves six dead


----------



## MHunterB (May 14, 2013)

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> Some people celebrate when others die.



Yes, we've noticed you doing exactly that.


----------



## MHunterB (May 14, 2013)

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> irosie91 said:
> 
> 
> > SherriMunnerlyn said:
> ...



You've proven nothing except that you continue to lie about Israelis.


----------



## member (May 14, 2013)

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> *"Some people celebrate when others die."*






​






​








































​




















​


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## Coyote (May 14, 2013)

irosie91 said:


> SherriMunnerlyn said:
> 
> 
> > This discussion about how posters feel about the dead is getting boring, it seems like the same conversation is being repeated over and over and over. Who cares? What does it matter? Why waste our time speaking of the dead, while there are living humans suffering human rights abuses? I think generally all of this can be summed up by saying generally people see good people as dying as bad and bad people dying as good. And we all judge good and bad from the perspectives of our lives and life experiences. There is not a universal right or wrong way to look at any of it.
> ...



That's a pretty audacious claim.  Can you back it up?


----------



## Coyote (May 14, 2013)

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> Some people celebrate when others die.



Unfortunately yes


----------



## Coyote (May 14, 2013)

MHunterB said:


> SherriMunnerlyn said:
> 
> 
> > irosie91 said:
> ...



Not really Marge.  She's right on some things.  There are elements in both sides of the conflict that celebrate death.  Whether it's Israeli children writing messages on bombs, Facebook postings or Palestininas handing out candy - it exists and it's documented.


----------



## member (May 14, 2013)

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> _*
> 
> "This discussion about how posters feel about the dead is getting boring......."*_



not to_*o*_oo_oo_oo _*m*_e_ee_e*e*e, *Sh*eeeeR_RR_RIiiiii


----------



## MHunterB (May 15, 2013)

Coyote - You haven't called sherri on her continual insistence that the Israeli military *deliberately targets civilians as a policy* - nor on her continual denial that HAMAS has actually had such a policy AND that HR groups have documented such exists.

I think (unless you've done so elsewhere and I've missed it) that's a huge omission on your part.

While Rosie's mode of expression is over-the-top and I read such statements of hers as intended as a satirical exaggeration - sherri has continued to make the same over-the-top accusations against 'Zionists' about hating and wanting to kill Arabs as being part of 'Zionism', and you appear not to notice that.

So - Do you think sherri's continual litany about the nature of 'Zionism' and 'Zionists' is all that accurate?  Do you truly suppose that Lipush and I WANT to harm Arabs, or feel some 'entitlement' to do so?  

As I stated earlier - perhaps I've simply missed that 'parallel' criticism from you which would support the 'fair and balanced' overview.  I've not been on USMB very much this week since I'm down visiting family, which IMHO is what I should be focused on after driving 6 hours to get here.....


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## SherriMunnerlyn (May 15, 2013)

MHunterB said:


> Coyote - You haven't called sherri on her continual insistence that the Israeli military *deliberately targets civilians as a policy* - nor on her continual denial that HAMAS has actually had such a policy AND that HR groups have documented such exists.
> 
> I think (unless you've done so elsewhere and I've missed it) that's a huge omission on your part.
> 
> ...



Policies that always result in unlawful targetings of civilians and civilian objects is deliberate targeting of civilians. Truth is truth and I shall never ever stop speaking it.


----------



## MHunterB (May 15, 2013)

PS - The infamous children writing on bombs was ONE incident. 

 How many times have murderers of Israeli civilians, even children civilians, been CELEBRATED AS HEROES of "Palestine"???

I believe that's what's called a 'false equivalency.   Women are 'oppressed' in many societies around the world - but if you suggest that we in the US are 'oppressed' just as women in Afghanistan, that's a false equivalency....


----------



## SherriMunnerlyn (May 15, 2013)

MHunterB said:


> PS - The infamous children writing on bombs was ONE incident.
> 
> How many times have murderers of Israeli civilians, even children civilians, been CELEBRATED AS HEROES of "Palestine"???
> 
> I believe that's what's called a 'false equivalency.   Women are 'oppressed' in many societies around the world - but if you suggest that we in the US are 'oppressed' just as women in Afghanistan, that's a false equivalency....



Soldiers of the IDF who deliberately kill civilians in Palestine are called Heroes every day. 1500 children they killed are listed on rememberthesechildren website. No difference when Palestinians call their fighters heroes, like fighters of Hamas who killed 1 Israeli child in the past 5 years. THE IDF killed close to 500 Palestinian children in the past 5 years.


----------



## MHunterB (May 15, 2013)

"Policies that always result in unlawful targetings of civilians and civilian objects is deliberate targeting of civilians. Truth is truth and I shall never ever stop speaking it."

Whoop-tee-dooo.  It's NOT truth: no amount of repetition can deny a nation the right to return fire along the exact trajectory from which *ILLEGAL ATTACKS* were launched upon its civilians.

Truth is truth - but that filth I quoted from the fake fraud of a 'pacifist humanitarian' is not truth at all.  And every time such lies are repeated, it just undercuts any morality of the 'Palestinian' cause.

There is an 'anti-Israel' cause, which isn't the same thing at all - and the two should not be conflated, for it puts the Palestinian people in bed with Nazi-sucking filth.  They deserve better advocates than those who can't post about Zionists, Israelis or Jews without snarling.


----------



## MHunterB (May 15, 2013)

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> MHunterB said:
> 
> 
> > PS - The infamous children writing on bombs was ONE incident.
> ...



Thanks for admitting that Palestinians call their 'fighters' heroes for deliberately trying to focus on murdering babies in their cribs.  

Too bad the poster has no comprehension of military training and an unremitting prejudice against ANY trained military.  I find it impossible to believe it's the spawn (its word) of anyone who actually worked for a law enforcement agency (which a military is!).


----------



## SherriMunnerlyn (May 15, 2013)

MHunterB said:


> "Policies that always result in unlawful targetings of civilians and civilian objects is deliberate targeting of civilians. Truth is truth and I shall never ever stop speaking it."
> 
> Whoop-tee-dooo.  It's NOT truth: no amount of repetition can deny a nation the right to return fire along the exact trajectory from which *ILLEGAL ATTACKS* were launched upon its civilians.
> 
> ...



The Fourth Geneva Convention is a Treaty Israel is a signaory to and it makes unlawful direct and  indiscriminate and disproportionate attacks on civilians and civilian objects. Israeli practices/attacks regularly violate these provisions. Violations of intl law by Palestinians do not justify Israel to violate these provisions. Amnestys Report about Cast Lead discusses this principle of law in more detail. But basically it is a very simple concept. War crimes of the enemy do not justify war crimes against the enemy.


----------



## SherriMunnerlyn (May 15, 2013)

MHunterB said:


> SherriMunnerlyn said:
> 
> 
> > MHunterB said:
> ...



You cannot stop  putting your words in my mouth, I said none of what you say I said. The 1 child Israel killed in the last 5 years was a 16 yr old boy, in the past 5 years Israel has killed close to 500 Palestinian children, most killed in deliberate unlawful attacks. And training a military to be war criminals is not justification for committing war crimes. That explains all those convictions of German soldiers after WW II.


----------



## Coyote (May 15, 2013)

MHunterB said:


> Coyote - You haven't called sherri on her continual insistence that the Israeli military *deliberately targets civilians as a policy* - nor on her continual denial that HAMAS has actually had such a policy AND that HR groups have documented such exists.



In some cases I think civilians were targeted (Operation Cast Lead) or - targeting was so careless that civilian deaths were inevitable (and that is the same in my book) - I addressed that in http://www.usmessageboard.com/israel-and-palestine/291168-attacks-on-civilians-6.html#post7160617 .  I agree, Hamas is indeed quite guilty of that (I never denied it).  But none of that has to do with the fact that in that particular statement Sherri made a valid point (which had nothing to do with the above).



> I think (unless you've done so elsewhere and I've missed it) that's a huge omission on your part.



Why?  Did *you *condemn Rosie's defense of Baruch Goldstein?  Did anyone?  It's not a tit for tat where there is a scorecard and if I support an opinion I must condemn one or I must carefully go through and condemn every batshit crazy post.  Most of the time - it's best to ignore them or you end up pissing in the wind.

I disagree with some of Sherri's views when it comes to civiilians and Israeli's:
http://www.usmessageboard.com/6951201-post190.html
http://www.usmessageboard.com/usmb-...r-crashes-2-pilots-killed-14.html#post6951336

But sometimes she is right.



> While Rosie's mode of expression is over-the-top and I read such statements of hers as intended as a satirical exaggeration - sherri has continued to make the same over-the-top accusations against 'Zionists' about hating and wanting to kill Arabs as being part of 'Zionism', and you appear not to notice that.



Rosie makes grotesque and insultingly bigoted over-the-top posts about Muslims that are very much in line with Sherri's and you excuse that?  Seriously?  Did you read her defense of Baruch Goldstein - a mass murderer?



> So - Do you think sherri's continual litany about the nature of 'Zionism' and 'Zionists' is all that accurate?  Do you truly suppose that Lipush and I WANT to harm Arabs, or feel some 'entitlement' to do so?



No, I think it's bigoted and anti-semitic.  Kind of like Rosie's don't you think?

*XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX*


----------



## Lipush (May 15, 2013)

Coyote said:


> SherriMunnerlyn said:
> 
> 
> > Some people celebrate when others die.
> ...



Ok, that is just the most hilarious thing I've ever read!


----------



## Coyote (May 15, 2013)

MHunterB said:


> "Policies that always result in unlawful targetings of civilians and civilian objects is deliberate targeting of civilians. Truth is truth and I shall never ever stop speaking it."
> 
> Whoop-tee-dooo.  It's NOT truth: no amount of repetition can deny a nation the right to return fire along the exact trajectory from which *ILLEGAL ATTACKS* were launched upon its civilians.



Wouldn't that justify some of Hamas' actions then?  For example, Israel sends drone attacks into their territory to kill targeted people but those killings almost always end up with innocent civilians killed as well.  It's a very tricky area here in terms of right and wrong.  Wouldn't Hamas be justified in attacking back?  I doubt they have the equipment or expertise to match trajectory and their weapons are not at all accurate.



> Truth is truth - but that filth I quoted from the fake fraud of a 'pacifist humanitarian' is not truth at all.  And every time such lies are repeated, it just undercuts any morality of the 'Palestinian' cause.
> 
> There is an 'anti-Israel' cause, which isn't the same thing at all - and the two should not be conflated, for it puts the Palestinian people in bed with Nazi-sucking filth.  They deserve better advocates than* those who can't post about Zionists, Israelis or Jews without snarling*.



You're banging your head against a brick wall....it's better to ignore it.


----------



## Coyote (May 15, 2013)

Lipush said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > SherriMunnerlyn said:
> ...



Why?


----------



## Coyote (May 15, 2013)

I do happen to think Israel is leagues above Hamas when it comes to civilians.  Hamas clearly and deliberately targets civilians almost exclusively.  Their aim is to create terror and/or revenge for Israeli attacks.  

Israel is far more careful of civilians than Hamas, but it too indirectly does so - for example, it's use of WP in densely populated areas when smoke bombs could have been used, could not help but target civilians and was contraindicated for urban use.  By choosing to use it, I feel they chose to target civilians.  When Israel practices it's collective punishment on Palestinians by demolishing their homes - that too is targeting civilians.


----------



## Lipush (May 15, 2013)

Coyote said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...



Because she just said that some people are gloating when people die.

Need I to say out loud what I think when the poster saying it is the same poster who said it?

I think you're clever enough to get why I think it's so "funny"...


----------



## Coyote (May 15, 2013)

Lipush said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Lipush said:
> ...



Ah, I see - I thought you were referring to my statement


----------



## Lipush (May 15, 2013)

Coyote said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...



Ah no. that was not my point


----------



## Coyote (May 15, 2013)

Lipush said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Lipush said:
> ...




....the irony that Sherri is gloating?


----------



## irosie91 (May 15, 2013)

In the "CIVILIAN'   vs  "NON-CIVILIAN"   controversy----the very 
important  issue of  IDENTIFICATION  has been ignored.  ---There is 
an  "ETIQUETTE"  of war which requires that combatants, and their 
vehicles and fortresses and barracks be IDENTFIED as such.   That 
IDENTITY thing--is not the responsibiilty of the  "OTHER SIDE"---
it is the responsibility of the NON-CIVLIANS  themselves on each 
side     The british used to be SO POLITE ----that they wore  RED!!!!!

In wars in which the most prevalent  identifying marking is a 
Hijab or a Beard-----then the hijab wearer and the bearded man 
might easily be identified as a NON CIVILIAN 

My advice to all   Hijab wearers----in case there is a jihadista 
bombing-------go home and change your clothes.

the people who cause civilian deaths in Gaza---are the sluts
who were NOT in uniform when they exploded themselves 
in Israel ------and the dogs in Gaza who shoot missiles 
at Israel from here and there IN GAZA -----return fire is always 
legal and-----it is the responsibility of combatants to IDENTIFY 
themselves as such for  GOOD REASON----if they do not 
they put lots of uninvolved people in danger


----------



## proudveteran06 (May 15, 2013)

proudveteran06 said:


> SherriMunnerlyn said:
> 
> 
> > proudveteran06 said:
> ...



Major Religions Ranked by Size

  Above are the different World Religions.  The majority obviously do not regard  'jesus' as the Savior.  I wonder what this 'christian" thinks of them since they rejected " jesus".   

 She accuses the Jews of hating Christians?  That's not so but if it was there's plenty of reasons why !

Anti-Semitism of the "Church Fathers"

The above is just a small example of why Jews probably should HATE Christians as long as you brought up the subject .


----------



## Lipush (May 15, 2013)

Coyote said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...



http://www.usmessageboard.com/usmb-...itary-helicopter-crashes-2-pilots-killed.html


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## Lipush (May 15, 2013)

And those _Keddoshim_ were not killed by migrant worker! there are no migrant workers in Itamar! stop the propaganda and admit the truth. They were killed by poor excuse of human beings! and those were _Palestinians_!


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## Lipush (May 15, 2013)

Yet, AM ISRAEL CHAI!


----------



## SherriMunnerlyn (May 15, 2013)

Speaking of responses to death, I keep thinking about responses I recently read on the Facebook page of a photographer in Gaza over hearing an IDF soldier committed suicide. Mostly, it was lol.


----------



## Connery (May 15, 2013)

*Moved to Badands*


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## irosie91 (May 15, 2013)

Luke did not know aramaic------his writing regarding that which 
took place during the last passover seder celebrated by Jesus 
is heresay       I assume Luke wrote in greek     Most of us---
here do speak english----I wonder why sherri feels a need to 
imagine herself  THE TRANSLATOR OF ENGLISH to english 
speaking people ------   

    strictly speaking --'testament'  does not actually mean 
                 'covenant'       it can be used as a kind of generic  
                 word of which a 'covenant' would fall into a subset. 
                 Testament means a statement of fact----covenant 
                 necessarily includes something like an agreement 
                 between two or more parties


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## Coyote (May 15, 2013)

*This thread has been cleaned of more than 25 off topic, no-content flaming and baiting posts.

As a reminder:
"Zone 2": Political Forum / Israel and Palestine Forum / Race Relations/Racism Forum: Baiting and polarizing OP's (Opening Posts), and thread titles risk the thread either being moved or trashed. Keep it relevant, choose wisely. Each post must contain content relevant to the thread subject, in addition to any flame. No trolling. No hit and run flames. No hijacking threads. 

It's not hard.

If you have issues with a poster, take it out in the Flame Zone.

Further disruption will be met with infractions.  Use the Flame Zone.  That is what it is there for.*


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## SherriMunnerlyn (May 16, 2013)

Lipush said:


> And those _Keddoshim_ were not killed by migrant worker! there are no migrant workers in Itamar! stop the propaganda and admit the truth. They were killed by poor excuse of human beings! and those were _Palestinians_!



YOU stop lying,  there had been migrant workers in Itamar and the claim a disgruntled THai migrant wirker carried out the crime was widely reported. Just now, I have found over a half a dozen sources discussing it. Awarta was placed under military control and people there terrorized until false confessions wrre beaten out of two residents there. The two youths are guilty of nothing and should be admired for taking the blame for crimes they did not commit to end the terrorism against their families and village. I admire and respect them and feel compassion for all they have suffered at the hands of their Nazi Zionist Occupiers. They are Palestinian Gandhis and heroes and demonstrate the best of humanity, suffering for others, sacrificing for others. I will never forget what Israel did in Awarta as videotaped in the video below. So like the Nazis they emulate!   Zionists response to killings when Jews are the victims is to terrorize Palestinians and torture Palestinians into making false confessions.  When Arab women like the woman in the OP are violently killed Israel does nothing, there is no investigation and no arrests.


----------



## SherriMunnerlyn (May 16, 2013)

During the five-day curfew in the village of Awarta, south of Nablus, the Israeli military raided homes and detained around 300 people, the youngest 14 years old. Some of the men were taken to the local boy school where they had to leave their fingerprints and DNA and some were taken to the military base at Huwwra checkpoint. According to the mayor, Qays Awwad, 55 men are still in Israeli custody. Some of the detainees reported that they had been abused by the soldiers while they were detained and handcuffed. It has been reported that a 75-year-old woman was handcuffed and had to sit on the ground while the soldiers went through her home, and that an 80-year-old woman was beaten by soldiers.Three Scandinavian ISM activists were in Awarta during the five-day curfew, from Saturday afternoon until Wednesday noon. From the roofs of people&#8217;s houses they witnessed how the Israeli soliders went into homes, arrested men and made the families wait outside while they raided their homes, resulting in large scale damage to property. The ISM activists also visited homes that soldiers had searched to find broken windows, cut fuse-cables, smashed furniture, and polluted drinking water caused by Israeli soldiers.Hundreds of soldiers entered the village in military vehicles early on the morning of the 12th of March, following the murder of five members of a settler family in the nearby illegal Israeli settlement of Itamar. According to the soldiers, they were searching for the murderer and would continue until they found one. One soldier told ISM activists, &#8221;We will search this village until we find someone.&#8221; *In the process of &#8221;searching&#8221; the houses, the soldiers damaged framed pictures, furniture, TV sets, gas heaters, smashed holes in floors and walls, stole money and jewlery, and poured liquids over computers. The Israeli forces occupied around 30 houses to sleep in during the four nights they remained in Awarta. In some of the houses they evicted the families, who had to seek shelter outdoors or in neighbour's homes during the night; in others they forced the families to stay in one room as the soldiers occupied the rest of the house. In occupied houses the soldiers defecated in the rooms and used the families' bed sheets as toilet paper. http://mondoweiss.net/2011/03/follo...e-destruction-during-five-days-of-curfew.html


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## SherriMunnerlyn (May 16, 2013)

When one activist asked: &#8221;Why do you have to punish all this people?&#8221; The solider responded with: &#8221;We have to punish these people so they will understand.&#8221;Even though this kind of systematic collective punishment is illegal according to International law, is it frequently used by the Israeli military all over the West Bank and in Gaza.When medical vehicles tried to access the area they were stopped by Israeli forces. ISM activists went to the checkpoint near Awarta on March 15 and reported that ambulances were being held several hours before they could enter the village. As an occupying force, Israel is obligated under article 56 of the Geneva Conventions not to hinder the work of medical personnel in a conflict zone.   Following Itamar killings, village of Awarta faced mass arrests, violence and massive destruction during five days of curfew | Mondoweiss


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## irosie91 (May 16, 2013)

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> > And those _Keddoshim_ were not killed by migrant worker! there are no migrant workers in Itamar! stop the propaganda and admit the truth. They were killed by poor excuse of human beings! and those were _Palestinians_!
> ...




Let us be patient with sherri-----she is poisoned by the filth she has imbibed as an 
isa-respecter.      and her need to be 'stimulated'   by  obscenity    -----her 'god'  
isa      is  within her ------and renders her ----the filth which she is-----

  it is interesting that she  pretends to repudiate  "nazis"    who were isa respecters
   just as is she. 

  the one book that was translated into  arabic----THE LANGUAGE OF ISA-----in the 
  entire  decade of the 1930s    was   MEIN KAMPF ----   that   sequel  to   AL KORAN  

  Give her some space-----she is what  professionals refer to as   
          "SOCIOPATHIC RAGE"     a point at which flaming sociopaths  are both
              dangerous to society and TO THEMSELVES----such a condition led  
              Adolf abu ali to put a bullet in his brain and  Magda Goebbels to 
              shove cyanide down the throats of her  six babies


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## SherriMunnerlyn (May 16, 2013)

When was the thread started? There are still no arrests reported over the murder of an Arab woman in Israel. And hardly any news coverage, either. Has anyone seen the story of this murder reported in the US? I have not. But when the Fogels were murdered, it was an entirely different story. What makes the shed blood of an Arab Palestinian woman in Israel mean nothing?


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## proudveteran06 (May 16, 2013)

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> When was the thread started? There are still no arrests reported over the murder of an Arab woman in Israel. And hardly any news coverage, either. Has anyone seen the story of this murder reported in the US? I have not. But when the Fogels were murdered, it was an entirely different story. What makes the shed blood of an Arab Palestinian woman in Israel mean nothing?



You have the CHUTPAH to compare the two? With the Fogel family an ENTIRE family was slaughtered and their infant was decapitated you Anti Semetic Moron. You who claim the family asked for it and thanks God for dead Israeli pilots can't understand why there isn't more concern about a Stinkin' Palestinian??     When He'll freezes over . I hope whoever did this gets away with it


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## Lipush (May 16, 2013)

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> > And those _Keddoshim_ were not killed by migrant worker! there are no migrant workers in Itamar! stop the propaganda and admit the truth. They were killed by poor excuse of human beings! and those were _Palestinians_!
> ...



It was Palestinians who admitted and felt proud of their actions.

I forgot its a lawyer's JOB to tell lies, right?

lol. You're a good one!


----------



## SherriMunnerlyn (May 16, 2013)

proudveteran06 said:


> SherriMunnerlyn said:
> 
> 
> > When was the thread started? There are still no arrests reported over the murder of an Arab woman in Israel. And hardly any news coverage, either. Has anyone seen the story of this murder reported in the US? I have not. But when the Fogels were murdered, it was an entirely different story. What makes the shed blood of an Arab Palestinian woman in Israel mean nothing?
> ...



Absolutely, I compare the two. The Arab woman was brutally killed and I see her life as having as much value as any of the Fogels lives had. The fact the Israelis treated the deaths so differently bares to the world and is testimony of the ugly and racist face of Apartheid.


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## SherriMunnerlyn (May 16, 2013)

Lipush said:


> SherriMunnerlyn said:
> 
> 
> > Lipush said:
> ...



The two teenage cousins were tortured into making false confessions. And their families and village were threatened until someone confessed .  They confessed to stop their torture and save their families and village. What a beuautiful illustration of sacrificing self for others they are! They wil be Blessed by God for their sacrifices, our lives on earth is not all there is to our existence.


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## Coyote (May 16, 2013)

proudveteran06 said:


> SherriMunnerlyn said:
> 
> 
> > When was the thread started? There are still no arrests reported over the murder of an Arab woman in Israel. And hardly any news coverage, either. Has anyone seen the story of this murder reported in the US? I have not. But when the Fogels were murdered, it was an entirely different story. What makes the shed blood of an Arab Palestinian woman in Israel mean nothing?
> ...



Wow.  Simply wow. That goes beyond "don't give a shit".

And all those condemning Sherri's jubulation over the deaths of the Fogels and Israeli pilots killed *remain silent* over your jubulation and silent over Rosie's defense of mass murder Baruch Goldstein.

Enough said.

I'm beyond disgusted.

These are not people who "deserved to die" - whether they are the Fogels or this Arab woman.  They're just ordinary people living their lives.


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## irosie91 (May 16, 2013)

Coyote said:


> proudveteran06 said:
> 
> 
> > SherriMunnerlyn said:
> ...




   yes  SIMPLY WOW----coyote continues to post up her incessant lie --that 
   I  (irosie)  justified the murders comitted by  Goldstein ----since I presented 
   what I know about his situation and mindset at that time. .    In fact I never 
   justified  his action-----I PRESENTED THE FACTS   ------which coyote some-
   how equates with sherri's dancing on the dead body of a mutilated  
   three month old infant       I have never seen coyote react SO STRONGLY 
   to a presentation of mitigating factors in a  MURDER    as she has reacted 
   to the fact that I revealed that Goldstein  had ----recent to his crime---
   examined the dead bodies to TWO MUTILATED FRIENDS------upon whom 
   scum like sherri were similarly dancing and in the mind of Goldstein
   planning  MORE. 

   Lets wait----maybe she will come down on anyone who comments that 
   a bomb on ass slut  lost her brother to an israeli shell  as much as 
   she has come down on me for revealing aspects of the Goldstein  
   crime and his mindset

Enough said.   <<< not enough----we are going to hear more of the 
   crap during the trial of  baby brother bostoni bomber ---but THAT  
   will be acceptable in the world of coyote and sherri

I'm beyond disgusted.<<<<   me too


These are not people who "deserved to die" - whether they are the Fogels or this Arab woman.  They're just ordinary people living their lives.

    well    actually you do not know who this arab woman was-----so far the 
      only players in this particular discussion who insists that babies and young 
      mothers and young conscripts on their way home DESERVE TO DIE  
      has been   isa-worshipper   sherri.    As to the dead arab lady----the 
      lack of reports is meaningless      It does not suggest anything even 
      close to bigotry      I got news for you guys    MOST MURDERS  
      even in the USA  do not make news ----.   If this was a   "muslim family 
      affair" ----the most interested party that it NOT MAKE NEWS----is the 
      muslim community------check  YEDIOT ACHRONOT----there might be 
      a paragraph.   Coyote----I did not notice ANYONE suggesting that the 
      arab lady  "deserved to die" ----you got a link  to justify your 
      comment-----do you know the family?


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## Coyote (May 16, 2013)

irosie91 said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > proudveteran06 said:
> ...


I can't speak for Sherri but none of that is acceptable to me and I've been clear and consistent in my views.  I don't condone the careless or or deliberate killing of innocent civilians regardless of their religion.

And I will *never condone or excuse the cold blooded murder of innocent people* whether they were shot in the back while peacefully worshiping or had their throats cut while they were asleep.



> Coyote----I did not notice ANYONE suggesting that the
> arab lady  "deserved to die" ----you got a link  to justify your
> comment-----do you know the family?



I don't think I claimed someone said that.  Come to think of it - did Sherri even say that?

However, I do think this comment concering the murder of the arab woman: "I hope whoever did this gets away with it" is every bit as contemptable as what Sherri has said.


----------



## SherriMunnerlyn (May 16, 2013)

Coyote said:


> irosie91 said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...



Well, I am not condoning or excusing any killings either. I simply see in some deaths truths in the words of Jesus or early Christians who wrote books in the Bible illustrated. That is not condoning any killings. Two phrases I know I have addressed, live by the sword and die by the sword and we reap what we sow. Neither phrases are condoning or excusing killings.


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## Coyote (May 16, 2013)

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > irosie91 said:
> ...



You applauded the deaths of two Israeli pilots when their planes crashed.


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## irosie91 (May 16, 2013)

I can't speak for Sherri but none of that is acceptable to me and I've been clear and consistent in my views. I don't condone the careless or or deliberate killing of innocent civilians regardless of their religion.


coyote----your use of the word  "CIVILIAN"  says it all.     
    all the arab/muslim residents of  gaza and the west 
    bank  style themselves civilians as do you and sherri and 
    every supporter of  islamic terrorism as far back as I 
    remember it----back to the 1960s------including those 
    holding knives dripping with the blood of infants and 
    those launching poison nail bombs into israel     In fact 
    the  gleeful mutilating  isa-respecters of  Mumbai were 
    also  CIVILIANS  ----as was tamerlane------now do you 
    understand?       I learned all about the INNOCENCE 
    of jihadist CIVILIANS  from a gigging pakistani surgeon--
    --circa    1970  which is why I find the use of the word  
    "civilian'   in the context you use it to be utterly  
    DISGUSTING.     When the   M.O   is uniform across 
    time and space--------the claim that the  "incidents"  
    are random crime is   OBSCENE.     You will be happy to 
    learn that the   mosque going   bombers bostoni------
    had no known  LINKS  to terrorist groups-----they somehow 
    managed to do what   JIHADISTS do world wide----all on 
    their very own------and made a nail bomb for the purpose 
    of  killing  kaffirin an a  NOVEL IDEA  that neither had ever 
    heard of before


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## proudveteran06 (May 16, 2013)

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> proudveteran06 said:
> 
> 
> > SherriMunnerlyn said:
> ...



 Palestinians hand out CANDY and celebrated what happened to them. That's not Racist??  IF the Israelis are treating the deaths differently I don't blame them.  Wait a minute.... Aren't you the one who claimed those Palestinians who confessed  are " innocent" yet we're supposed to give a SHIT about this Arab Woman?     You obviously don't believe Jewish life is as valuable as " palestinian life" so why should I believe the opposite?   I don't and never will .   What goes around comes around


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## irosie91 (May 16, 2013)

proudveteran06 said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > irosie91 said:
> ...


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## SherriMunnerlyn (May 16, 2013)

proudveteran06 said:


> SherriMunnerlyn said:
> 
> 
> > Lipush said:
> ...



I did not say she asked for it, those are your words and not mine. I said the rest, and none of what I said is excusing or condoning the killings by the disgruntled migrant worker. Learn to read,  mentally challenged person.


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## Lipush (May 16, 2013)

There are no migrant workers in Itamar!


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## SherriMunnerlyn (May 16, 2013)

Lipush said:


> There are no migrant workers in Itamar!



There have been in the past.


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## Lipush (May 16, 2013)

So please, bring their names!

and bring out the evidence supporting the facts that the Fogels hd such a worker! what was his/her name?


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## SherriMunnerlyn (May 16, 2013)

Lipush said:


> So please, bring their names!
> 
> and bring out the evidence supporting the facts that the Fogels hd such a worker! what was his/her name?



Not my burden to prove!


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## Lipush (May 16, 2013)

Yes it is!

We say those were Palestinians.

We have their faces, their names, their own words admitting it.

What you have is a claim. you say the trial was unjustified, and so was the result.

you say they were killed by migrant workers.

It's your burden to prove that claim, since you're the one saying our conclusions are incorrect.

So I expect you to back up your claim, or admit losing that arguement.

What are their names? I say there were no migrant workers. I have no need to say more, because you cannot prove something that doesn't exist, does.

You on the other hand, say something which isn't true, which is different from the truth we know.

So, again, you're the one to prove it.

The guilty ones are in jail.

Prove, please, that they are not the guilty ones.


I'm waiting nicely.


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## proudveteran06 (May 16, 2013)

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> proudveteran06 said:
> 
> 
> > SherriMunnerlyn said:
> ...




  You DID say it in the INITIAL post that i can't find because I forget what the topic was.  However, it doesn't matter. ' She reaps what she sows" will do just fine.  You also claim she taught terrorism.  I did ask you in the initial post for that link;  NOT that she was a teacher !

     You are a liar stating the FAMILY SLAUGHTER was done by a " disgruntled migrant worker".    Prove it.  They have the SAVAGES who did this which included the BEHEADING OF AN INFANT.    

    Stop with your Hate, you " christian" Anti Semetic Bigot


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## Lipush (May 16, 2013)

proudveteran06 said:


> SherriMunnerlyn said:
> 
> 
> > proudveteran06 said:
> ...


----------



## proudveteran06 (May 16, 2013)

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> > So please, bring their names!
> ...





  It's common sense that if someone makes a statement it's up to them to back it up with facts.  I accused the Anti Semetic Bigot of saying certain things , she challenged me to " prove it" and I did.  

  I have stated  that Olmert offered Abbas almost everything he wanted, I was asked to post the link and I did.   The fact that she can't post a "link" proving her claim is just more proof that she is nothing but a liar.

    So much for her " empathy" regarding the Fogels.  As previously stated, whoever slaughtered that Palestinian woman, I hope they get away with it!  Two can play that game .


----------



## Hossfly (May 16, 2013)

MHunterB said:


> "YOU stop lying, Zionists like you live to destroy and kill and lie for Zion, that is the essence of all you are."
> 
> What do you think of that spewage?


By now, Marg, since she has vomited out that statement ad nauseam, it probably falls on deaf ears (so to speak) when the viewers see it once again.  No doubt she is vomiting out the same statement wherever she goes on the Internet.  One thing is obvious -- she doesn't really care about the people who her friends have murdered and are still murdering.


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## Coyote (May 16, 2013)

proudveteran06 said:


> SherriMunnerlyn said:
> 
> 
> > Lipush said:
> ...



All partisanship and fighting aside - do you seriously feel this? Seriously?

I don't.  I don't think any of those people deserved to die and it doesn't matter what anyone else thinks 

Do you think Baruch Goldstein was right in what he did?  What about those who defend him?


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## Hossfly (May 16, 2013)

Coyote said:


> Hossfly said:
> 
> 
> > MHunterB said:
> ...


I'm not their proctor and when you see a thank you from Hossfly under their post you'll know I approve. Otherwise.............


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## Coyote (May 16, 2013)

proudveteran06 said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Hossfly said:
> ...



I don't think I have a double standard in this regard PV.  I find all those deaths abhorrant.

Is your stance based on your own beliefs or on a reaction to another posters statements?  Do you also excuse Goldstein?


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## Hossfly (May 16, 2013)

Coyote said:


> Hossfly said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...


Adversary.


----------



## MHunterB (May 16, 2013)

I am visiting my family and not really 'on' for very long at a time - so I see a post or two, and don't get to read page after page, which does impair continuity.

I DO NOT approve of or support PV's statement - I don't care if a woman is a $2-a-trick crack whore, her life and her murder 'counts'.   

I do not believe the only problem is that 'the authorities' are lax in their investigation:  it is obvious that the woman's male relatives are the primary suspects, and from the many cases of 'honor killing' murders, we have seen often the male relations conspire to cover up such crimes.

This is not about 'apartheid' or racism, but mostly about misogynistic 'cultures' which condone the abuse of women in general.  The claim that 'the Israelis don't care to investigate because they are racists' is just nonsense:  if the Israelis were *really* so 'racist', they'd be all too eager to find a couple of Arab men to execute for the murder....

Fixating on Israel's flaws - as sherri insists on constantly doing! - will achieve NOTHING to improve the lot of Palestinian or other Arab women in general.


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## irosie91 (May 16, 2013)

Coyote said:


> proudveteran06 said:
> 
> 
> > SherriMunnerlyn said:
> ...




Goldstein was named a criminal in Israel  ---so much so that he could not be buried 
in a regular cemetary ----your heroine slut whore WAFA IDRIS has three girl's schools 
named to honor her where you can worship her -----you incessant lies mark you 
for what you are----when your hero, the  baby brother bomber bostoni goes on 
trial-----there will be all kinds of people DEFENDING HIM and because of 
his ANGST and you will not murmur.      On this board a DISGUSTING SLUT 
claimed that Lyn Stewart was jailed simply for  "DEFENDING A MUSLIM" 
----the muslim pig she defended was   another one of your heroes   
SHAYKH  ABDEL RAHMAN- murdering dog who bombed the world trade 
center in 1993----I had the honor of dealing with one of the victims of the 
disgusting isa worshipping pig ----when the slut farted out her  "because 
she defended a muslim"   you made no comment----In fact ,  slut Lyn 
Stewart----created an illegal communication between dog  RAHMAN--
and one of his fellow terrorists  and was justly jailed for her disgusting 
filth.     YOU DEFENDED A MURDERER OF SIX AMERICANS ----and an 
attempt to murder thousands  and the whore who tried to help him 
DO IT  SOME MORE.     Somehow mentioning the fact that Goldstein 
examined two of his own friends  mutilated to death in the ISA-
RESPECTING STYLE    bothers you-------gee    hypocrite.    Your 
silly little    "I AM SO GOOD --I REJECT ALL KILLING"  is garbage.
You have certainly not demonstrated that noble soul  YOU 
CLAIM FOR YOURSELF.    You are very selective about whose 
lives you value and upon whose "defense" you FOCUS
Would you have danced along with sherri   if the WTC 
had fallen over on the nearby school killing thousands as the good 
"SHAYKH" had planned.  Lots of jews in that school---ask anyone 
who knows the area and the best schools in Manhattan---the one full 
of  chinese math  GENIUSES.    None of the targets of the filth 
of jihadists is RANDOM  nor does it have anything at all to do with 
DEFENSE 

I certainly hope that you plan to go on a HUNGER 
STRIKE FOR THE RELEASE OF SAINT ABDEL RAHMAN---he 
deserves to be released ----he is an AWARD WINNING 
KORANIC SCHOLAR who legalized the killing of  ---any jew---
any age--any gender----in the world    I am not sure if he took 
part in the  FARTWAH making killing americans legal --any age, 
any gender      Probably not----he was already in jail by then and 
his whore----Lyn Stewart was already  neutralized

now do your job and play   
                    FAIR AND DISINTERESTED MODERATOR


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## MHunterB (May 16, 2013)

Coyote:  There is a similarity between some of the things PV or Rosie have posted, and the sherri-spewage *BUT*

Neither of them has been prancing about these boards preening themselves as being a "person of conscience" and slandering other human beings wholesale as being lacking in moral standards, etc, etc....

Neither of them has presumed to declare that other posters are 'Satan spawn' or going to Hell......  

And it's that  >>>PRESUMED SUPERIORITY<<<<  which I believe has so outraged everyone who doesn't share her views.  

That, her lies, and her unremitting support for Holston the Nazi-thing, which even Seal has rejected.


----------



## Coyote (May 16, 2013)

irosie91 said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > proudveteran06 said:
> ...



Yes.  In fact, if you read my posts *I stated so and stated that most Israeli's (other than settlers) were horrified and absolutely condemned him.* 



> your heroine slut whore WAFA IDRIS has three girl's schools
> named to honor her where you can worship her -----



I have no idea who she is.



> you incessant lies mark you for what you are----when your hero, the  baby brother bomber bostoni goes on trial-----there will be all kinds of people DEFENDING HIM and because of his ANGST and you will not murmur.



My hero?

My hero is my dog.  He's killed no one.


> On this board a DISGUSTING SLUT
> claimed that Lyn Stewart was jailed simply for  "DEFENDING A MUSLIM"
> ----the muslim pig she defended was   another one of your heroes
> SHAYKH  ABDEL RAHMAN- murdering dog who bombed the world trade
> ...



I have no idea who she is.



> YOU DEFENDED A MURDERER OF SIX AMERICANS ----



Where did I do that?



> and an attempt to murder thousands  and the whore who tried to help him
> DO IT  SOME MORE.



What on earth are you talking about Rosie?



> Somehow mentioning the fact that Goldstein examined two of his own friends  mutilated to death in the ISA-RESPECTING STYLE    bothers you-------gee    hypocrite.



Speaking of hypocrites Rosie, here's a thought.  How many Palestinian bombers were motivated by seeing family members abused, jailed, tortured and murdered by Israeli's?  do you think that's some sort of excuse they can use to slaughter innocent people?  Really now?



> Your silly little    "I AM SO GOOD --I REJECT ALL KILLING"  is garbage.
> You have certainly not demonstrated that noble soul  YOU
> CLAIM FOR YOURSELF.    You are very selective about whose
> lives you value and upon whose "defense" you FOCUS



Nope.  I'm consistent Rosie.  I don't think civilians deserve to be targeted.



> Would you have danced along with sherri   if the WTC
> had fallen over on the nearby school killing thousands as the good
> "SHAYKH" had planned.  Lots of jews in that school---ask anyone
> who knows the area and the best schools in Manhattan---the one full
> ...



What on earth are you talking about?



> I certainly hope that you plan to go on a HUNGER
> STRIKE FOR THE RELEASE OF SAINT ABDEL RAHMAN---he
> deserves to be released ----he is an AWARD WINNING
> KORANIC SCHOLAR who legalized the killing of  ---any jew---
> ...



Again - who is Lyn Stewart?  When have I ever commented on her?  What are you going on about?


----------



## MHunterB (May 16, 2013)

Lynne Stewart - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This will explain some of Rosie's post - and it should also explain why some people hold attorneys in low esteem.....


----------



## irosie91 (May 16, 2013)

Coyote---your analogy between persons MOTIVATED by revenge is on seeing people 
die ---on either side has nothing to do with goldstein-----his problem was threats 
of  another  1929  hebron massacre----as represented by words actually carved 
into the flesh of his murdered friends ------I do not believe that you are as dim 
as you pretend to be.    In fact----there have been people on this very board who 
HAVE defended  suicide sluts and  terrorists because they saw their own die----
you did not comment    "no excuse"    or  "HOW DOES EVERYONE FEEL THAT 
SHERRI IS DEMANDING THE RELEASE FROM JAIL OF MURDERS "  over and 
over and over ........

as to  wafa idris----she is the FIRST   bomb on ass slut ---female----for that she 
is lauded as a great heroine----her real story is that she married but failed to 
conceive----so her husband dumped her and married someone else-----to 
elevate her reputation in the UMMAH----she decided to tie a bomb to 
her ass and murder....in her own words "as many jewish children as 
possible"    ....makes sense----she was barren so why should jewish 
mothers have children????     In fact she managed to murder only one 
adult.    HOWEVER  she is so great that THREE  schools for girls were 
named in HER HONOR ----decorated with large portraits of  SAINT WAFA ---
little girls are urged to emulate her GLORY.   The defense that has been 
presented for NOBLE WAFA is----she resented the deaths of palestinian 
children----well ---actually she resented not having children of her own---
but lets not go there

Lyn  Stewart is the lawyer who defended  SHAYKH ABDEL RAHMAN--
he traveled from Egypt where he was head of the  KORANIC 
STUDIES DEPARTMENT OF AL AZHAR U. ----and came 
to Jersey City,  New Jersey to teach muslims to commit 
acts of terrorism for the glory of isa.    He was the 
brains and SPIRITUAL LEADER of the bombing of the world trade 
center 1993.    The bomb was situated in the basement parking 
lot----the idea being that the tower would FALL OVER ---killing 
thousands.      It did not ---It killed only six and injured a few 
score 

Lyn Steward visited her client frequently in jail----and--by her 
OWN  MACHINATIONS managed to bring in an alternate 
ARABIC TRANSLATOR-----but---
it turned out that the real purpose was to get  the good 
SHAYKH in contact with his followers   in order to 
plan an  ENCORE and that fact was detected
    She was jailed and disbarred----but 
SHERRI  decided that the whole reason she was jailed 
was   "because she defended a muslim"----a bit silly since 
by the time she comitted her lawyerly crime----the good 
SHAYKH had already been sentenced to life in prison... 
There is an onging campaign now to release the murdering 
pig...      I have no doubt   that sherri will join the  HUNGER 
STRIKERS and you will not comment...


----------



## SherriMunnerlyn (May 16, 2013)

irosie91 said:


> Coyote---your analogy between persons MOTIVATED by revenge is on seeing people
> die ---on either side has nothing to do with goldstein-----his problem was threats
> of  another  1929  hebron massacre----as represented by words actually carved
> into the flesh of his murdered friends ------I do not believe that you are as dim
> ...



All I have ever said is I believed she was unjustly convicted and all I believe she ever did was simply try to properly defend an unpopular client.  What you have turned this into is completely unwarranted. Every defendant deserves to have effective  legal counsel.


----------



## Kondor3 (May 16, 2013)

Are we still milkin' this non-starter? ;-)


----------



## irosie91 (May 16, 2013)

All I have ever said is I believed she was unjustly convicted and all I believe she ever did was simply try to properly defend an unpopular client.  What you have turned this into is completely unwarranted. Every defendant deserves to have effective  legal counsel.[/QUOTE]


Sherri lied again in the usual manner of isa-respecters who live to lie and to 
murder and to mutilate infants     What she actually wrote was that Lyn 
Stewart was jailed for  DEFENDING A MUSLIM     The dog isa respecter 
who bombed the World trade center   DID have effective legal counsel 
in the effective now former Lawyer Lyn Stewart    There was a COURT 
order that his followers in filth and crime not be in contact with him 
because he HAD threatend that he had the POWER  by the grace of isa 
to organize more murders.    He was a bit egotistical about his own 
personal charisma and POWER----and the fact is that he was something 
of a murdering dog cult leader which is why the judge ordered that his 
contacts be limited.   Lyn Stewart seemed to be DAZZLED by the pig.
She arranged to virtually smuggle into the jail an "arabic translator"  
that turned out to be one of rahman's adoring followers----the conversation 
between rahman and the "translator was recorded and it did turn out 
to include  PLANS      Rahman declared that should he die in jail  ---
a very likely possbility since he is a VERY sick brittle diabetic---his followers 
must be encouraged to  RAMPAGE     The fact is that Lyn Stewart did violate 
a very clear court order regarding her client-----she comitted a crime.  
Sherri's suggestion that Lyn went to jail for '"defending a muslim"  in view of 
the   HUNDREDS, if not thousands  OF MUSLIMS  who are defended by 
lawyers in New York State every years------I wonder why they do not END 
UP  IN JAIL     Lets ask    sherri-----sherri why do all those muslim defendants 
have no problem getting lawyers if the  state of new york   PERSECUTES 
lawyers who defend muslims?


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## irosie91 (May 17, 2013)

Coyote said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> > SherriMunnerlyn said:
> ...




Fascinating   coyote------you equate  NON RESPONSE--- to  the  REJOICING OVER 
THE DEAD BODIES OF ISRAELI BABIES AND INNOCENT YOUTHS  by your 
friend  Sherri the  isa respecter        I have no doubt that you were inspired by 
her   "GOD IS GREAT --GOD IS GOOD"  on the news that a couple of kids 
going home on leave by helicopter fell out of the sky to their deaths-----Here is 
a response      lets see if it is ok >>>>
     MAY SHERRI SEE  HER OWN---the FILTH OF HER WOMB ---
 FALLEN FROM A HEIGHT AND SMASHED TO THE GROUND
 ----BY THE GRACE OF A GREAT 'god' which shoves that spawn of FILTH to 
violent death       The filth which is extruded from the gut of the slave 
of SATAN  (whoever he is)  who  dances on the dead bodies of the innocent 
children of innocent mothers----the filth which we know GROW TO DEPRAVIY 
AND MURDER FOR THE GLORY OF ISA 

    see  coyote?     I can be as  ELOQUENT as an isa-respecter


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## Lipush (May 17, 2013)

Coyote said:


> Hossfly said:
> 
> 
> > MHunterB said:
> ...



*Now wait just a minute!.*

I don't recall ever "excusing" or "tolerating" the actions of Baruch Goldstain.

I have _clearly_ expressed my disgust and unacceptance of his deeds.

So don't pull _me_ into that!

That's just rude!


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## Connery (May 17, 2013)

*

Reopened

Violative posts removed (second time)

The Administration and the Moderation Team are serious in their efforts to have a civil discourse as it pertains to the OP and any further posts which violate Zone 2 rules will be viewed in a more serious manner where infractions will be administered on a case by case basis.




*


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## SherriMunnerlyn (May 17, 2013)

It is not at all clear who killed the Israeli Arab woman whose death is addressed in the OP and the primary problem is Israel does not give a damn when Arabs are victims of crimes, especially women.  The OP and the fact the crime will not be thoroughly  investigated or prosecuted is an image of Apartheid in action in Israel. Compare this case to the Fogels. We see there is a world of difference in Israel/Palestine and it all depends on whether the victim of the crime is Jewish or Arab.


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## proudveteran06 (May 17, 2013)

SHE ASKED FOR IT

SHE REAPS WHAT SHE SOWS!


The above is regarding the masacre of the ENTIRE Fogel Family. Then she claims ( this is besides the point) the Palestinians the Israelis have in custody were scapegoated, the ones who REALLY did it were migrant workers !

One Day After Slaughter of Fogel Family, Palestinians Name Square After Terrorist



Breaking Jewish News Updated Throughout The Day

One Day After Slaughter of Fogel Family, Palestinians Name Square After Terrorist 




 1:50 PM on Friday, May 17, 2013 - Sivan 8, 5773 

i


One day after an Israeli family of five was brutally murdered in their home, the Palestinian Authority--the supposed peace partner of the Israeli government--stood by while a square was named for a terrorist who killed 37 Israelis in 1978.

Dalal Mughrabi square was named Sunday in the presence of Fatah party members. Members of Fatah's armed wing carried out the attack against the Fogel family of Itamar in which three children and their parents were stabbed to death Saturday morning. 

The Jewish Chronicle further reports that a Fatah youth center was named this weekend in honor of the first female Palestinian suicide killer, Wafa Idris. Her attack in 1981 left one dead and 150 injured.





Abbas sponsors birthday celebrations honoring terrorist Dalal Mughrabi, killer of 37  
by Itamar Marcus and Nan Jacques Zilberdik 
Dec. 31, 2009  




More Sharing ServicesShare | Share on facebookShare on twitterShare on emailShare on print 




This week Palestinian Authority Chairman Mahmoud Abbas once again honored the memory of the terrorist Dalal Mughrabi - this time by sponsoring a ceremony celebrating the 50th anniversary of her birth. Mughrabi led the most lethal terror attack in Israel's history in 1978, when she and other terrorists hijacked a bus and killed 37 civilians. Present at the ceremony were Palestinian dignitaries and a children's marching band. Earlier this year, Abbas sponsored a computer center named after Mughrabi.

The PA further glorified Mughrabi on the date of her birth when the Governor of Ramallah announced the naming of the "Dalal Mughrabi Square".

An article by Fatah spokesman Jamal Nazal in the official PA daily defined the terrorist Mughrabi as "the heroine of Palestine's heroines."
[Al-Hayat Al-Jadida, Dec. 30, 2009]




Banner showing Mughrabi at birthday celebration 

PA leaders at Mughrabi birthday celebration 

Children's marching band at Mughrabi birthday celebration 
Remnat of bus hijacked bu Mughrabi 
Remnant of bus hijacked by Mughrabi 
The text on the giant banner carrying Mughrabi's portrait at the birthday ceremony read:
"Under the auspices of President Mahmoud Abbas
The Political and National Education Authority
Ceremony on the anniversary of the birth of the bride of the cosmos
The Shahida (Martyr) Dalal Mughrabi."

Two PA TV news broadcasts focused on the celebration:
"Under the auspices of President Mahmoud Abbas, the Political and National Education Authority held a ceremony marking the 50th anniversary of the Shahida (Martyr) Dalal Mughrabi, commander of the Coastal Operation (i.e. hijacking of bus and killing of 37 civilians)." 
[PA TV (Fatah), Dec. 29, 2009]

These are not isolated examples of public glorification of terrorists in the PA. The PA has a strong tradition of using terrorists as role models -- especially for children -- by naming public places, facilities and events after them. Dalal Mughrabi, who is not known for anything other than her murderous terror attack, is one of the prominent examples of a terrorist who is promoted as a worthy and desirable role model.

The following are named after, or have been named after Dalal Mughrabi in the last two years: 

Abbas sponsors birthday celebrations honoring terrorist Dalal Mughrabi, killer of 37 - PMW Bulletins


  Bet the " christian" and Coyote see nothing wrong with this.  Could you imagine if the situation were reverse and Netanyahu did it?  WOW !!!!


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## SherriMunnerlyn (May 17, 2013)

Getting away with murder

While Palestinians are often*held in Israeli jails for years without charge or trial, the Israeli justice system is notoriously easy on Israeli Jews who murder Palestinians whether in hate crimes or war crimes.Just last week*two Israeli soldiers were given sentences of 45*days*in jail for killing Rayah and Majda Abu Hajaj, a mother and her daughter, who were waving white flags during Israels 2008-2009 attack on Gaza.In July, an Israeli youth*was given a short sentence of 8 years*for the brutal, unprovoked racially motivated killing of Hussam Rawidi.Then there is Ziad Jilani, who was shot and killed by Israeli border police officers on an East Jerusalem street in broad daylight two years ago without any reason. His American wife Moira, the mother of their two young children,*spoke to The Electronic Intifada in May*about her so far fruitless effort to bring Ziads killers to justice.Such tolerance has a long history in Israel, symbolized by the notorious case of Colonel Issachar Shadmi who commanded the troops who murdered 48 Palestinian civilians in the unprovoked massacre at Kafr Qasim in 1956. Shadmi was fined just*one penny.These are just a few cases. There are thousands more cases of Palestinians killed or injured, where no investigation is ever opened, and no justice is available for the victims.Is it any wonder that there is so much racist violence when Israeli leaders constantly spew hatred, racist crimes and war crimes go unpunished, and*Israeli children are taughtto view Palestinians and Arabs as less than human from the very earliest age?Lynching in Jerusalem: where impunity and Israel's unchecked racial hatred lead | The Electronic Intifada


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## Coyote (May 17, 2013)

*Thread closed for cleaning.*


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