# Can someone call the cases when Putin lied?



## Balancer (Apr 8, 2018)

I'm tired of constantly facing Putin's accusations of lying with the absence of any examples. I do not rule out that this is possible, because a big policy without lies - it almost never happens. Western politicians lie very often and we all know such examples, from Colin Powell's test tube to the statements of Boris Johnson. But I do not remember cases when Putin was convicted of proven lies. Maybe I do not know such cases and will you tell them to me?


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## frigidweirdo (Apr 9, 2018)

Balancer said:


> I'm tired of constantly facing Putin's accusations of lying with the absence of any examples. I do not rule out that this is possible, because a big policy without lies - it almost never happens. Western politicians lie very often and we all know such examples, from Colin Powell's test tube to the statements of Boris Johnson. But I do not remember cases when Putin was convicted of proven lies. Maybe I do not know such cases and will you tell them to me?



Ah, you want cases of when Putin was CONVICTED of lying huh? 

Putin could kill 1000 people right outside the Kremlin, have it recorded on TV for the whole of Russia to see, and he still wouldn't get convicted.


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## Balancer (Apr 9, 2018)

frigidweirdo said:


> Putin could kill 1000 people right outside the Kremlin, have it recorded on TV for the whole of Russia to see, and he still wouldn't get convicted.



So you do not have proven examples of Putin's lies? OK.


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## frigidweirdo (Apr 9, 2018)

Balancer said:


> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> > Putin could kill 1000 people right outside the Kremlin, have it recorded on TV for the whole of Russia to see, and he still wouldn't get convicted.
> ...



You're playing semantics. 

You're taking a guy who A) worked for the KGB under the USSR where he'd be immune of committing crimes unless it annoyed the politburo and B) a guy who has basically become dictator of the country.

So he's only had a 10 year window where he could actually get convicted in the first place.


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## toobfreak (Apr 9, 2018)

Balancer said:


> I'm tired of constantly facing Putin's accusations of lying with the absence of any examples. I do not rule out that this is possible, because a big policy without lies - it almost never happens. Western politicians lie very often and we all know such examples, from Colin Powell's test tube to the statements of Boris Johnson. But I do not remember cases when Putin was convicted of proven lies. Maybe I do not know such cases and will you tell them to me?




It is usually based on empirical evidence.  In order to prove someone is lying, you need to acquire a set of facts that contradict statements, and as ex-KGB, Putin is very careful in what he says and facts are often hard to come by in anything Putin is involved in.  And anyone who seems to know anything contrary to Putin's position often seems to meet with unfortunate circumstances.


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## Balancer (Apr 9, 2018)

toobfreak said:


> as ex-KGB, Putin is very careful in what he says and facts are often hard to come by in anything Putin is involved in.



So. With this I agree. But caution in choosing words or when a person does not speak the whole truth, giving a one-sided assessment - this is not a lie. And Putin is often accused of lying. So I'm interested in examples of Putin's revealed lies.



toobfreak said:


> It is usually based on empirical evidence



The variant of the charge is convincing empirical data too. But only in the presence of objective empirical evidence, not allegations.


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## WheelieAddict (Apr 9, 2018)

When John McCain calls Putin a “thug and a murderer” this is what he’s talking about


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## WheelieAddict (Apr 9, 2018)

Vladimir Putin, war criminal


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## WheelieAddict (Apr 9, 2018)

'Terrible Crimes' Made Putin World's Richest Person, Financier Testifies


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## WheelieAddict (Apr 9, 2018)

Exclusive: Dissident says he was tortured for challenging Vladimir Putin


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## Balancer (Apr 9, 2018)

WheelieAddict said:


> When John McCain calls Putin a “thug and a murderer” this is what he’s talking about



According to this link there is no example of Putin's proven lies.


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## WheelieAddict (Apr 9, 2018)

Putin is an authoritarian dictator and people that make excuses for his actions are sad sacks of shit.


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## Balancer (Apr 9, 2018)

WheelieAddict said:


> Exclusive: Dissident says he was tortured for challenging Vladimir Putin



Similarly. I know a lot of such materials. But there is not a single example of Putin's lies in them.


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## Balancer (Apr 9, 2018)

WheelieAddict said:


> Putin is an authoritarian dictator and people that make excuses for his actions are sad sacks of shit.



The next accuser can not communicate culturally and without insults. Also a very typical example. When a person does not have a solid foundation under his own opinion, then instead of proving he begins to be rude.


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## shockedcanadian (Apr 9, 2018)

You must be kidding.  I didn't even have to think twice, Alexander Litvinenko was murdered in Britain and multiple Russian politicians denied culpability even though the plutonium was traced to a Russian reactor and no one gets whacked without Putins approval.

I could list as many as were needed, from reasons for entering Crimea to denials of relationships in Syria and with various splinter groups.

He is former KGB and he wants to bring Russia back to Super Power status with immense global influence.  These former spies might know the risks they take, but Putin pretends that agencies aren't aware of his orders.  Lies might fool the public but those behind the scenes who need to know, do know.  Putin knows this, but he lies anyways.


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## WheelieAddict (Apr 9, 2018)

Display this image in Russia and you will get thrown in jail. The far right that fellates putin wants authoritarian rule like this to come to the west. Its not going to happen.


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## Balancer (Apr 9, 2018)

shockedcanadian said:


> I didn't even have to think twice, Alexander Litvinenko was murdered in Britain



Can you give examples of Putin's lies? Not hypothetical charges against him, I'm perfectly familiar with them, but examples of proven lies in his words? Do you understand the difference? Or an electronic translator can not convey this question accurately?


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## shockedcanadian (Apr 9, 2018)

Balancer said:


> shockedcanadian said:
> 
> 
> > I didn't even have to think twice, Alexander Litvinenko was murdered in Britain
> ...



You mean it has to be proven that Putin gave the order to the SVR to kill a former agent with a $10M vial of plutonium?  They have identified the two people who committed the crime and found traces in their hotel rooms, plane rides etc.

So it's one of two things, either Putin gave the order, or there are billionaires who buy $10M plutonium from Russia and defy Putin and kill a British citizen anyways.  Who are you trying to fool here?  Putin runs the show, he knows he gave the order, you know he gave the order, and of course, he subsequently lied about it.


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## Balancer (Apr 9, 2018)

WheelieAddict said:


> Display this image in Russia and you will get thrown in jail.



Unfortunately, you are only familiar with anti-Russian propaganda, and not with reality. But even if you were right (which is not so), then this is not proof of Putin's lies. This could be proof that he is a tyrant and a bloodsucker. But I'm asking about examples of his lies.


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## Balancer (Apr 9, 2018)

shockedcanadian said:


> You mean it has to be proven that Putin gave the order to the SVR to kill a former agent with a $10M vial of plutonium?



No. I'm looking for examples when Putin lied. But not accusations of his cruelty, murders and the like. Do you understand that in general, honesty and cruelty are orthogonal concepts? A person can be an honest tyrant, or maybe a deceitful liberal.


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## shockedcanadian (Apr 9, 2018)

Balancer said:


> WheelieAddict said:
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> 
> > Display this image in Russia and you will get thrown in jail.
> ...




Maybe you are a good little soldier for your country, that's fine, I don't expect you to slag your leader who appears to have been democratically elected.  You should be honest though.

Surely you've heard of the term "plausible deniability".  All kinds of activities go down in Geopolitical battles between nations, no powerful world leader is immune to it.  This is why they are insulated.  You cannot prove that Putin gave an order, but you can easily deduce that he did.  You might even feel insulted if someone denied that he did knowing the power structure in Russia.

So, unless you have an audio recording and the names are used, you cannot prove much of anything.  Look at the recent poisoning in Britain or chemcial attacks by Assad, anyone can create a counter narrative to convince the world it didn't happen, but those on the ground report it honestly.

Mother Theresa wasn't a world leader for a reason, these positions aren't made up primarily of Saints.


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## usmbguest5318 (Apr 9, 2018)

> Can someone call the cases when Putin lied?


Have the various search engines -- Google, Bing, Yahoo, etc. -- stopped working on your Internet access/computing device?

The State Department channeled its inner Letterman with this Top 10 Russian lies about Ukraine list

Putin and ‘normalised’ lies
The thing about Putin is less about his lying and more about his treachery, deceitfulness and machinations to undermine from within democracies that oppose him or have the will and/or strength to marginalize him.  

Unlike Trump, Putin isn't generally given to lying about all things great and small.  Specifically, the stuff he lies about tends to be stuff that only intelligence agencies can soundly/cogent refute, and in most instances, they cannot openly do so without compromising sources and methods.  Knowing that, Putin undertakes subterfuge that aims to erode a citizenry's trust in the very organs on which they must rely for information about the nature and extent of Putin's actions.  Quite simply, the more partisanship, the more politically motivated distrust and animosity, the more willingness of citizens to ascribe political intents to "everything" and that Putin can catalyze and/or exacerbate among a democratic polity, for him, the better.

It is because that is Putin's overall strategy that his/the Kremlin's tactics of fomenting dissent, advancing conspiracy theories about the motivations and acts of a democracy's domestic institutions, and the advancement of the notion of "fake news," thus any measure of Russian state involvement in a democracy's electoral/political processes should gravely concern any citizen of a democracy like the U.S. and its allies.


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## Kosh (Apr 9, 2018)

toobfreak said:


> Balancer said:
> 
> 
> > I'm tired of constantly facing Putin's accusations of lying with the absence of any examples. I do not rule out that this is possible, because a big policy without lies - it almost never happens. Western politicians lie very often and we all know such examples, from Colin Powell's test tube to the statements of Boris Johnson. But I do not remember cases when Putin was convicted of proven lies. Maybe I do not know such cases and will you tell them to me?
> ...



Almost sounds like the Clinton's..

But then again the Russian media is controlled by the government.


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## WheelieAddict (Apr 9, 2018)

shockedcanadian said:


> You mean it has to be proven that Putin gave the order to the SVR to kill a former agent with a $10M vial of plutonium?



No. I'm looking for examples when Putin lied. But not accusations of his cruelty, murders and the like. Do you understand that in general, honesty and cruelty are orthogonal concepts? A person can be an honest tyrant, or maybe a deceitful liberal.[/QUOTE]

Post this picture in Russia and let us know how it goes for you. Surely as a free man you can do this. Or are you a slave?


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## Balancer (Apr 9, 2018)

shockedcanadian said:


> You cannot prove that Putin gave an order, but you can easily deduce that he did.



Thus, even if Putin is a bloody tyrant, there is no evidence that he ever lied. He can be called a beast and a murderer, but not a lier. So?


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## WheelieAddict (Apr 9, 2018)

Kosh said:


> toobfreak said:
> 
> 
> > Balancer said:
> ...


Of course a far right fox bot would be brainwashed by his cult and try to make Americans as worse. Republicans hate democracy and want a dictator like putin. Sad!


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## shockedcanadian (Apr 9, 2018)

Balancer said:


> shockedcanadian said:
> 
> 
> > You cannot prove that Putin gave an order, but you can easily deduce that he did.
> ...




HAHA, yes you are playing semantics.

No, he can be called a liar, I just did.  Now PROVING he is a liar is going to be nearly impossible, especially for a regular Joe like myself.   You might recall in 1962 Russia, lead by Khruchev told the UN that America was in fantasy land regarding nukes in Cuba.  America provided the proof with aerial photos showing the nukes on truck flatbeds thanks to the U2 plane, embarrassing Russia for a generation.

That kind of proof will not be found with Putin.  So you can believe what you wish and I will do the same.


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## Kosh (Apr 9, 2018)

WheelieAddict said:


> Kosh said:
> 
> 
> > toobfreak said:
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Says the far left drone troll that voted for Hilary and Obama twice!

You support that which is just like Putin!


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## Kosh (Apr 9, 2018)

shockedcanadian said:


> Balancer said:
> 
> 
> > shockedcanadian said:
> ...



Yes it can be hard to prove even in a country that he invaded..

Paul Niland: Vladimir Putin is a liar | KyivPost


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## Balancer (Apr 9, 2018)

Xelor said:


> Putin and ‘normalised’ lies



Here again only accusations. And not one specific fact of lies.



Xelor said:


> The State Department channeled its inner Letterman with this Top 10 Russian lies about Ukraine list



At last concrete charges. I'll try to check.



> Russian forces in Crimea are only acting to protect Russian military assets. It is “citizens’ defense groups,” not Russian forces, who have seized infrastructure and military facilities in Crimea



What did Putin himself say about this:



> Владимир Путин, президент РФ: «За спиной сил самообороны Крыма, конечно, встали наши военнослужащие. Они действовали очень корректно, но, как я уже сказал, решительно и профессионально».
> 
> Путин: за спиной крымской самообороны стояли российские военные



Translation:



> Behind the back of the self-defense forces of the Crimea, of course, our servicemen stood up. They acted very correctly, but, as I said, resolutely and professionally "



Putin does not deny the use of the Russian military during the declaration of the independence of the Crimea.



> Russia’s actions fall within the scope of the 1997 Friendship Treaty between Ukraine and the Russian Federation.
> 
> ...
> 
> The opposition failed to implement the Feb. 21 agreement with former Ukrainian President Viktor Yanukovych.



I did not find such words from Putin. Can you show me where he says it?



> There is a humanitarian crisis and hundreds of thousands are fleeing Ukraine to Russia and seeking asylum.



In general, it is indicative that in this "set of examples of lies" there are no literal quotations of Putin. I also did not find this quote in his words. But here, just, there is no deception. In Russia, indeed, many Ukrainians fled. Now in our country about 2.5 million Ukrainians. Of these, 660,000 official refugees in 2015, according to the UN report.

http://reliefweb.int/sites/reliefwe...raine_situation_report_36_-_17_april_2015.pdf

...

It seems that again it did not turn out to be an example of Putin's lies.


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## Balancer (Apr 9, 2018)

WheelieAddict said:


> Post this picture in Russia and let us know how it goes for you. Surely as a free man you can do this. Or are you a slave?



I have a whole subfoum on the my forum criticizing Putin and the government. Only after 2013 this section is almost dead. Putin's rating soared so high that his critics at the forum lost all their reputation.

Форумы Balancer'а / Ленин и печник


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## Balancer (Apr 9, 2018)

shockedcanadian said:


> That kind of proof will not be found with Putin.  So you can believe what you wish and I will do the same.



In the absence of evidence, only the question of faith remains. And the faith is strongly influenced by propaganda. And especially those who hear only one side of the confrontation are vulnerable to propaganda.


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## Slyhunter (Apr 9, 2018)

Didn't Putin lie about troops in Syria? And about Syria using Chemical weapons?


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## Balancer (Apr 9, 2018)

Slyhunter said:


> Didn't Putin lie about troops in Syria? And about Syria using Chemical weapons?



What exactly his words are lies?


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## Lewdog (Apr 9, 2018)

It's pretty easy to discern when Putin is lying...  his lips are moving.


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## cnm (Apr 9, 2018)

Balancer said:


> So I'm interested in examples of Putin's revealed lies.


This is a stone lie. One always knows what great communicators mean. No one knows what Trump means at any time.

_Speaking in a series of interviews with Russian state television which were included in a documentary released Wednesday, Putin described Trump as a great communicator.
https://www.thestar.com/_​


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## Slyhunter (Apr 9, 2018)

Balancer said:


> Slyhunter said:
> 
> 
> > Didn't Putin lie about troops in Syria? And about Syria using Chemical weapons?
> ...


It's 3 am I'm not going to fetch quotes for you.
He said he had no ground troops in Syria when he had ground troops in Syria.
He said Assad didn't use Chemical Weapons on his citizens when Asad did use Chemical Weapons on his citizens so we bombed his empty airport with expensive bombs. Cost us more than it cost him.


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## Balancer (Apr 9, 2018)

Slyhunter said:


> He said he had no ground troops in Syria when he had ground troops in Syria.



Russia does not have ground troops in Syria. In Syria there are only:

- Aviation
- Air Base Support Services
- Military Police
- Special Operations Forces
- Doctors, military advisers, etc.

There are also representatives of private military companies, but they are for that, so that the state does not sign under them.

There are no Russian land forces in Syria.



Slyhunter said:


> He said Assad didn't use Chemical Weapons on his citizens when Asad did use Chemical Weapons on his citizens so we bombed



It's a lie. Assad does not use chemical weapons in Syria.



Slyhunter said:


> his empty airport with expensive bombs. Cost us more than it cost him.



This, indeed it is. The cost of the launched American cruise missiles is much greater than the cost of their damaged damage.

This is clearly more expensive than the six old, inefficient MiG-23s, radar and several agnairs with utility rooms.


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## Lewdog (Apr 9, 2018)

Balancer said:


> Slyhunter said:
> 
> 
> > He said he had no ground troops in Syria when he had ground troops in Syria.
> ...



Military police and special OP forces aren't land forces?  Do you have cabbage for brains?


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## Balancer (Apr 9, 2018)

Lewdog said:


> Military police and special OP forces aren't land forces?  Do you have cabbage for brains?



In Russian military terms - no. Russia's participation in the land war in Syria implies the use of a regular army. But there is no such thing in Syria. With the translation of terms you should always be more careful. And then we can say that Russia is leading a war in Syria. Because Russian aviation belongs to the kind of army "Russian air and space forces". And then you still and the downed pilot, who is fighting with the islamists, write down in the Russian land operation.


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## cnm (Apr 9, 2018)

Ah. So I guess the translation of Russian 'great communicator' is 'inveterate liar'. Sorted.


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## Lewdog (Apr 9, 2018)

Balancer said:


> Lewdog said:
> 
> 
> > Military police and special OP forces aren't land forces?  Do you have cabbage for brains?
> ...



Well glad to see you are just another brainwashed dipshit like so many in Russia.


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## cnelsen (Apr 9, 2018)

frigidweirdo said:


> Balancer said:
> 
> 
> > I'm tired of constantly facing Putin's accusations of lying with the absence of any examples. I do not rule out that this is possible, because a big policy without lies - it almost never happens. Western politicians lie very often and we all know such examples, from Colin Powell's test tube to the statements of Boris Johnson. But I do not remember cases when Putin was convicted of proven lies. Maybe I do not know such cases and will you tell them to me?
> ...


He meant "caught lying" you precious ninny. Answer his question, if you can.


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## Balancer (Apr 9, 2018)

Lewdog said:


> Well glad to see you are just another brainwashed dipshit like so many in Russia.



I'm glad to see that my opponents are only capable of insults. Hence, they have no arguments.


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## usmbguest5318 (Apr 9, 2018)

Balancer said:


> Xelor said:
> 
> 
> > Putin and ‘normalised’ lies
> ...





Balancer said:


> It seems that again it did not turn out to be an example of Putin's lies.


???  Did this remark...


Xelor said:


> The thing about Putin is less about his lying and more about his treachery, deceitfulness and machinations to undermine from within democracies that oppose him or have the will and/or strength to marginalize him....Unlike Trump, Putin isn't generally given to lying about all things great and small. Specifically, the stuff he lies about tends to be stuff that only intelligence agencies can soundly/cogently refute, and in most instances, they cannot openly do so without compromising sources and methods.


...really not register with you?


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## cnelsen (Apr 9, 2018)

Balancer said:


> shockedcanadian said:
> 
> 
> > That kind of proof will not be found with Putin.  So you can believe what you wish and I will do the same.
> ...


I suppose the propaganda was bad during Soviet times. The China Daily is a joke. But for rank malice, treason, and gall, you can't beat American propaganda. In China, everyone knew it was propaganda. The idiots here swallow the bullshit hook, line and sinker.  Just take note of all the imbeciles here on this board (and in the country at large) who fucking believe the Jewish-owned Washington Post's claim that Assad used chemical weapons on his own people while the opposition was in retreat. Fucking morons. Democracy sucks.


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## cnelsen (Apr 9, 2018)

Balancer said:


> Lewdog said:
> 
> 
> > Well glad to see you are just another brainwashed dipshit like so many in Russia.
> ...


Ignore Lewdog. He's just an ill-bred spiteful Jew who hates Putin and Russia because they are Christian.


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## Balancer (Apr 9, 2018)

Xelor said:


> ...really not register with you?



I did not see anything in this message about the facts of Putin's direct lie. And I have already written several times about the fact that direct lie and hypothetical tyranny do not correlate.


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## cnm (Apr 9, 2018)

Balancer said:


> Hence, they have no arguments.


Are you not allowed to admit he lied about Trump?


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## Balancer (Apr 9, 2018)

cnm said:


> Are you not allowed to admit he lied about Trump?



Sorry, got confused in mutual quotes. What exactly did Putin lie about Trump? Give an exact quote, please.


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## Lewdog (Apr 9, 2018)

cnelsen said:


> Balancer said:
> 
> 
> > Lewdog said:
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I'm a Jew??  Damn I never knew!


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## usmbguest5318 (Apr 9, 2018)

Balancer said:


> Xelor said:
> 
> 
> > ...really not register with you?
> ...



Had I known you are a Putin sycophant, I'd have from the get go posted what my "better angels" dissuaded me from posting at that juncture.....





​


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## Balancer (Apr 9, 2018)

Xelor said:


> Had I known you are a Putin sycophant ...



You should be ready for this one right away, as you see "Russia" under the avatar of the interlocutor. Do not forget that every 3 out of 4 Russians directly support Putin. You can explain for yourself this anything, by brainwashing, stupidity of Russians or genetic deviations of Russians, but this will not change the fact of the Russians' attitude to their president.


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## cnm (Apr 9, 2018)

Balancer said:


> Give an exact quote, please.


Sorry, that will be in Russian, which I don't speak. So it probably translates as 'inveterate liar'.


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## Litwin (Apr 9, 2018)

Balancer said:


> I'm tired of constantly facing Putin's accusations of lying with the absence of any examples. I do not rule out that this is possible, because a big policy without lies - it almost never happens. Western politicians lie very often and we all know such examples, from Colin Powell's test tube to the statements of Boris Johnson. But I do not remember cases when Putin was convicted of proven lies. Maybe I do not know such cases and will you tell them to me?


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## Balancer (Apr 9, 2018)

cnm said:


> Balancer said:
> 
> 
> > Give an exact quote, please.
> ...



No, I'm not asking for an exact quote from Putin in Russian  Give an exact quote in English translation, and I'll try to understand what it was, and so on or not.

Notice. I do not claim that Putin has never lied. And I'm not saying that I believe that he never lies. I just write about the fact that I have never encountered Putin's direct lies. And if you show a direct example of such a case - I agree with you.

In fact, everything is still more complicated. Even in Russian, Putin is often called a liar. Opposition, Ukrainian trolls, etc. But when you try to get to the source, it has always turned out that the words that are attributed to him are either distorted or even fictitious. But people often believe in what the other person is saying without any verification. Or they confuse the desired with the real.

For example, take the annual address of Putin to the federal assembly. Very often he is accused of lying. "Putin promised us this and that, and this is not!". But the fact of the matter is that in the address Putin never promises anything. It only talks about the direction in which it is planned to develop the country's politics and economy. He calls the goals for development. But he never promises that these goals will be achieved  This can be called anything, but not a lie. If, for example, I say that I will quit smoking, but I will not leave it - it will be a fraud. If I say that I will try to quit smoking, and indeed, I will take some steps for this, but I will not be able to do this, for example, because of lack of willpower - this is no longer a fraud.

Another example is the "withdrawal of troops from Syria" and "the end of the war in Syria". It is often claimed that Putin claimed this, but this did not happen. But he never claimed this. During his visit to Syria, Putin announced victory over ISIS. And this is so - ISIS as the state is crushed. There remained the Islamists, there remained the "Syrian opposition", but ISIS is no longer a player on this scene. And it was announced about the reduction of the Russian group in Syria by one third. And this is also so, the first aircraft returned to Russia the next day, and the whole process was completed in a few days. But Putin did not talk about the full withdrawal of Russian troops from Syria. Moreover, more than once it was stressed that Russia had concluded contracts for leasing military bases in Syria. And it was never said that the war in Syria is dead. But Putin is constantly trying to call a fraud about this.

I suspect that his corresponding aura in the West is exactly the same result of propaganda, divorced from reality. And while no one refuted my version.


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## cnelsen (Apr 9, 2018)

Xelor said:


> Balancer said:
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> > Xelor said:
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What a dishonest post. Since you aren't able to actually answer his question, you accuse him of being a "sycophant" and then pretend you are therefore refusing to answer on principle. Sad.


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## cnelsen (Apr 9, 2018)

Balancer said:


> cnm said:
> 
> 
> > Balancer said:
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Democracy is a menace. Even now, every politician and media source is screaming about Assad using chemical weapons and everyone just goes along with it. But a reasonably intelligent fourteen-year-old could see how absurd it would be for a dictator who has just won a civil war to then use poison gas on the very rebels to whom it is now in his interest to grant amnesty. The HUGE and OBVIOUS MOST LIKELY source of the chemical weapons are the criminals of the Israeli Defense Farce. Only PUTIN has told the truth about this attack, yet the (((traitorous vipers))) in this country shriek that he is a liar and HE is the threat. Come on, Americans...free yourselves.


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## Litwin (Apr 9, 2018)

"
*Putin's 'Top 10' Lies On Ukraine*

*1.Russia Claims: Russian agents are not active in Ukraine.*

*Fact:* The Ukrainian Government has arrested more than a dozen suspected Russian intelligence agents in recent weeks, many of whom were armed at the time of arrest. In the first week of April 2014, the Government of Ukraine had information that Russian GRU officers were providing individuals in Kharkiv and Donetsk with advice and instructions on conducting protests, capturing and holding government buildings, seizing weapons from the government buildings' armories, and redeploying for other violent actions. On April 12, armed pro-Russian militants seized government buildings in a coordinated and professional operation conducted in six cities in eastern Ukraine. Many were outfitted in bullet-proof vests, camouflage uniforms with insignia removed, and carrying Russian-designed weapons like AK-74s and Dragunovs. These armed units, some wearing black and orange St. George's ribbons associated with Russian Victory Day celebrations, raised Russian and separatist flags over seized buildings and have called for referendums on secession and union with Russia. These operations are strikingly similar to those used against Ukrainian facilities during Russia's illegal military intervention in Crimea in late February and its subsequent occupation.

*2.Russia Claims: Pro-Russia demonstrations are comprised exclusively of Ukrainian citizens acting of their own volition, like the Maidan movement in Kyiv.*

*Fact:* This is not the grassroots Ukrainian civic activism of the EuroMaidan movement, which grew from a handful of student protestors to hundreds of thousands of Ukrainians from all parts of the country and all walks of life. Russian internet sites openly are recruiting volunteers to travel from Russia to Ukraine and incite violence. There is evidence that many of these so-called "protesters" are paid for their participation in the violence and unrest. It is clear that these incidents are not spontaneous events, but rather part of a well-orchestrated Russian campaign of incitement, separatism, and sabotage of the Ukrainian state. Ukrainian authorities continue to arrest highly trained and well-equipped Russian provocateurs operating across the region.

*3.Russia Claims: Separatist leaders in eastern Ukraine enjoy broad popular support.*

*Fact:* The recent demonstrations in eastern Ukraine are not organic and lack wide support in the region. A large majority of Donetsk residents (65.7 percent) want to live in a united Ukraine and reject unification with Russia, according to public opinion polls conducted at the end of March by the Donetsk-based Institute of Social Research and Policy Analysis. Pro-Russian demonstrations in eastern Ukraine have been modest in size, especially compared with Maidan protests in these same cities in December, and they have gotten smaller as time has progressed.

*4.Russia Claims: The situation in eastern Ukraine risks spiraling into civil war.*

*Fact:* What is going on in eastern Ukraine would not be happening without Russian disinformation and provocateurs fostering unrest. It would not be happening if a large Russian military force were not massed on the border, destabilizing the situation through their overtly threatening presence. There simply have not been large-scale protests in the region. A small number of separatists have seized several government buildings in eastern cities like Donetsk, Luhansk, and Slovyansk, but they have failed to attract any significant popular support. Ukrainian authorities have shown remarkable restraint in their efforts to resolve the situation and only acted when provoked by armed militants and public safety was put at risk. Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE) observers have reported that these incidents are very localized.

*5. Russia Claims: Ukrainians in Donetsk rejected the illegitimate authorities in Kyiv and established the independent "People's Republic of Donetsk."*

*Fact:* A broad and representative collection of civil society and non-governmental organizations in Donetsk categorically rejected the declaration of a "People's Republic of Donetsk" by the small number of separatists occupying the regional administration building. These same organizations confirmed their support for the interim government and for the sovereignty and territorial integrity of Ukraine.

*6. Russia Claims: Russia ordered a"partial drawdown" of troops from the Ukrainian border.*

*Fact:* No evidence shows significant movement of Russian forces away from the Ukrainian border. One battalion is not enough. An estimated 35,000-40,000 Russian troops remain massed along the border, in addition to approximately 25,000 troops currently in Crimea.

*7. Russia Claims: *_*Ethnic Russians in Ukraine are under threat.*_

*Fact:* There are no credible reports of ethnic Russians facing threats in Ukraine. An International Republic Institute poll released April 5 found that 74 percent of the Russian-speaking population in the eastern and southern regions of Ukraine said they "were not under pressure or threat because of their language." Meanwhile, in Crimea, the OSCE has raised urgent concerns for the safety of minority populations, especially ethnic Ukrainians, Crimean Tatars, and others. Sadly, the ethnic Russians most at risk are those who live in Russia and who oppose the authoritarian Putin regime. These Russians are harassed constantly and face years of imprisonment for speaking out against Putin's regular abuses of power.

*8. Russia Claims: Ukraine's new government is led by r adical nationalists and fascists.*

*Fact:* The Ukrainian parliament (Rada) did not change in February. It is the same Rada that was elected by all Ukrainians, comprising all of the parties that existed prior to February's events, including former president Yanukovych's Party of Regions. The new government, approved by an overwhelming majority in the parliament -- including many members of Yanukovych's former party -- is committed to protecting the rights of all Ukrainians, including those in Crimea.

*9. Russia Claims:Ethnic minorities face persecution in Ukraine from the "fascist" government in Kyiv.*

*Fact:* Leaders of Ukraine's Jewish as well as German, Czech, and Hungarian communities have all publicly expressed their sense of safety under the new authorities in Kyiv. Moreover, many minority groups expressed fear of persecution in Russian-occupied Crimea, a concern OSCE observers in Ukraine have substantiated.

*10. Russia Claims: Russia is not using energy and trade as weapons against Ukraine.*

*Fact:* Following Russia's illegal annexation and occupation of Crimea, Russia raised the price Ukraine pays for natural gas by 80 percent in the past two weeks. In addition, it is seeking more than $11 billion in back payments following its abrogation of the 2010 Kharkiv accords. Russia's moves threaten to increase severely the economic pain faced by Ukrainian citizens and businesses. Additionally, Russia continues to restrict Ukrainian exports to Russia, which constitute a significant portion of Ukraine's export economy."

The State Department Put Out Another Listicle Of Putin's 'Top 10' Lies On Ukraine


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## Litwin (Apr 9, 2018)




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## rightwinger (Apr 9, 2018)

Balancer said:


> I'm tired of constantly facing Putin's accusations of lying with the absence of any examples. I do not rule out that this is possible, because a big policy without lies - it almost never happens. Western politicians lie very often and we all know such examples, from Colin Powell's test tube to the statements of Boris Johnson. But I do not remember cases when Putin was convicted of proven lies. Maybe I do not know such cases and will you tell them to me?


Lying is one of his better qualities


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## deanrd (Apr 9, 2018)

Balancer said:


> I'm tired of constantly facing Putin's accusations of lying with the absence of any examples. I do not rule out that this is possible, because a big policy without lies - it almost never happens. Western politicians lie very often and we all know such examples, from Colin Powell's test tube to the statements of Boris Johnson. But I do not remember cases when Putin was convicted of proven lies. Maybe I do not know such cases and will you tell them to me?


Did you ever bother to do a Google search on "Putin's lies"?
How about "Trump's lies"?
You should have before you started this thread.


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## Slyhunter (Apr 9, 2018)

Ground troops = combat troops that fight on the ground, which would include, MP's, Special Forces, etc and most especially so called mercenary units bought and paid for by Putin's sycophants.


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## cnm (Apr 10, 2018)

Balancer said:


> Give an exact quote in English translation, and I'll try to understand what it was, and so on or not.


For fuck's sake. Don't you read the links to the quoted excerpts? It was a report of an interview in Russian. How many times will it take for you to get that? Putin was reported as saying Trump was a great communicator. That is the exact English translation.


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## Eugene (Apr 10, 2018)

Kosh said:


> toobfreak said:
> 
> 
> > Balancer said:
> ...


Or yeah!
Western mass media are free and not controlled by government


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## Eugene (Apr 10, 2018)

WheelieAddict said:


> Putin is an authoritarian dictator and people that make excuses for his actions are sad sacks of shit.


Globalists ruling west are bloody tyrant family and people that make excuses for their crimes are sad sacks of shit.


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## Eugene (Apr 10, 2018)

WheelieAddict said:


> shockedcanadian said:
> 
> 
> > You mean it has to be proven that Putin gave the order to the SVR to kill a former agent with a $10M vial of plutonium?
> ...



Post this picture in Russia and let us know how it goes for you. Surely as a free man you can do this. Or are you a slave?






[/QUOTE]
One of numerous stereotypes. 
Nobody place someone to a jail for such things.
Go on believing your lying mass media


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## Eugene (Apr 10, 2018)

frigidweirdo said:


> You're taking a guy who A) worked for the KGB under the USSR where he'd be immune of committing crimes unless it annoyed the politburo and B) a guy who has basically become dictator of the country


A) Being exCIA is ok for you? So why being exKGB(FSB) is a sin?
B) A very impressive "dictator"! The one widely supported by citizens,  the one had been able to stop the war in Chechnya, the one who stopped people's suffering of poverty and hunger, the one who increased every macroeconomical index greatly. And which is most important and the main reason of western attack - Putin and his team stopped robbing of Russia by western companies 
I do vote for such kind of dictatorship!


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## frigidweirdo (Apr 10, 2018)

Eugene said:


> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> > You're taking a guy who A) worked for the KGB under the USSR where he'd be immune of committing crimes unless it annoyed the politburo and B) a guy who has basically become dictator of the country
> ...



I didn't say working for the KGB was a sin. 

Is Putin "widely supported by citizens"? Then why does he need to diddle the elections if he's so popular? Why does he need to kill people who oppose him?

So, western companies aren't robbing Russia, but Putin is. You don't even get to decide who does the robbing.

Yes, Putin has steadily improved things in Russia. 

Look at this however. Russia today has a GDP per capita of $27,000.

Latvia also has a GDP of $27,000, Lithuania $31,000, Estonia $31,000, Poland $29,000, Czech Republic $35,000, Slovakia $32,000.

These countries are doing better than Russia or the same, and yet they don't have the natural resources of Russia. Russia should be RICH... why isn't it?


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## rightwinger (Apr 11, 2018)

frigidweirdo said:


> Eugene said:
> 
> 
> > frigidweirdo said:
> ...


Putin has hurt Russia economically. 

When the USSR fell, the west offered economic opportunities, trade deals and partnerships that should have allowed Russia to expand its wealth
Putin pushed it all away, invaded Crimea and the Ukraine. 

Now, Russia has few allies and is isolated


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## Balancer (Apr 11, 2018)

cnm said:


> For fuck's sake. Don't you read the links to the quoted excerpts? It was a report of an interview in Russian.



I have to deal with the electronic translation of each forum post individually. And I do not do it all the time, but from time to time. Therefore, when the context of previous messages begins to be mentioned, I can not understand what is being discussed. Is it really hard for you to just give an accurate link and explain what you mean? I completely lost the context of your question.


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## Balancer (Apr 11, 2018)

deanrd said:


> Did you ever bother to do a Google search on "Putin's lies"?
> How about "Trump's lies"?



On such requests there is only a mass of empty unsubstantiated accusations. That's why I'm asking about concrete proven facts.


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## Balancer (Apr 11, 2018)

frigidweirdo said:


> Look at this however. Russia today has a GDP per capita of $27,000.
> 
> Latvia also has a GDP of $27,000



And now, attention, we turn to the purchasing power of this money. Take the simplest example, the index of the Big Mac. In Russia, for $ 27,000, you can buy 11739 Big Macs. In Lithuania - 7941. And now here we will add a lot of free social services, which are not in Lithuania, we make an amendment to the state debt, which in Lithuania has already exceeded 40% and the difference will be even greater.

Big Mac index worldwide 2018 | Statista

I live in the Kaliningrad region next to Lithuania. And in Soviet times this Soviet republic was a prosperous showcase of socialism. I went by train, crossed the border and after the neat and well-groomed Lithuanian towns Russian cities seemed dirty and abandoned.

Now the situation has become completely different. In Lithuania, I mean more and more destroyed rents, overgrown fields and vegetable gardens, rusty roofs. And in the Kaliningrad region more and more well-groomed and beautiful places.

Not so long ago I shared my photos on this topic:

Voice of Russia


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## Balancer (Apr 11, 2018)

rightwinger said:


> When the USSR fell, the west offered economic opportunities, trade deals and partnerships that should have allowed Russia to expand its wealth



When the West offered to help us, there was hell in Russia. There were periods when I was several days without food. When Russia refused to cooperate with the West on unfavorable conditions for itself, the standard of living in Russia began to grow rapidly. As other parameters that are related to this began to improve. The consumption of alcohol decreases, life continues to grow, mortality decreases.

Thank you, but the sanctions of the West bring Russia much more benefits than its "help."

USSR-Russia. 1988-2018. Timeline.


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## frigidweirdo (Apr 11, 2018)

rightwinger said:


> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> > Eugene said:
> ...



Well, when the USSR fell the US gave a lot of money to former Warsaw Pact countries, but not to Russia, Russia was seen as the enemy.

During the 1990s when Yeltsin was in power and Russia had the chance to rejoin the "democratic world" let by the great "democratic" country like the US, Russia suffered a lot. 

I understand the argument that Putin has done a lot for Russia. However I also understand the argument that he's held Russia back. He's done both. 

Russia needed strong leadership, the sort of leadership that Yeltsin, with his alcohol, was never going to give. Countries who have never had democracy before can't just jump straight into democracy and expect it to succeed.


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## frigidweirdo (Apr 11, 2018)

Balancer said:


> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> > Look at this however. Russia today has a GDP per capita of $27,000.
> ...



Sure, but really, do you want to be buying that many big macs?

I have a friend in Moscow, she earns some good money, likes to take foreign holidays, we met in Germany while studying German. Her money doesn't go as far as it used to, because she likes expensive foreign stuff, smart phones, electronics, whatever. 

For many Russians they want to go to the west. They might look to Lithuania for the chance to get an Schengen visa. 

When I was in St Petersburg I stayed in a hostel. Two girls from Siberia were there. They had flown in to get UK visas. Their intention was to to the UK and never go back to Russia. One got the visa, the other didn't. 

A reality in Russia. People want more than they've go. Some people love Putin, others hate him but know they can't do anything about it. 

I went by bus from Tallinn to St Petersburg, the roads suddenly started to get quite bad on the Russian side. 

Things might be cheaper, but you also have to remember that $27,000 is the average, where you have billionaires taking oil money, that in Lithuania doesn't exist. So, the average wage for the normal people will be much lower.


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## rightwinger (Apr 11, 2018)

Balancer said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> > When the USSR fell, the west offered economic opportunities, trade deals and partnerships that should have allowed Russia to expand its wealth
> ...



How has Russia done compared to China in the last 25 years?
Where is your industry?
Where is your high tech trade?

Putin has kept you in the 80s


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## Balancer (Apr 11, 2018)

frigidweirdo said:


> When I was in St Petersburg I stayed in a hostel. Two girls from Siberia were there. They had flown in to get UK visas. Their intention was to to the UK and never go back to Russia. One got the visa, the other didn't.



In what year was it? The fact is that many underestimate the pace with which the standard of living in Russia has grown. In the 1990s there was hell. Only, approximately, by 2010, Russia has returned to the level of the USSR in terms of living standards. A more or less comfortable standard of living according to my ideas in Russia has become in the last 5-10 years. But this is on average. Russia is very big and very different. There are absolutely chic stunning beautiful places. There are ruins and slums. But the fact that the standard of living is really growing. And there are fewer and fewer people wishing to leave Russia every year.



frigidweirdo said:


> Things might be cheaper, but you also have to remember that $27,000 is the average, where you have billionaires taking oil money, that in Lithuania doesn't exist. So, the average wage for the normal people will be much lower.



There it was in the context of GDP, not wages  The average salary in Lithuania is higher than in Russia  That's only the purchasing power of such a salary is lower there. Even with all European subsidies and assistance. Life in Lithuania is more expensive than life in Russia.


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## Balancer (Apr 11, 2018)

frigidweirdo said:


> Sure, but really, do you want to be buying that many big macs?



This is simply one of the simplest ways to roughly compare the purchasing power of currencies in different countries. Although he is far from ideal, because he does not take into account many other expenses in the country, such as education in schools, medicine, kindergartens, higher education (in Russia all this is free of charge), etc.


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## frigidweirdo (Apr 11, 2018)

Balancer said:


> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> > When I was in St Petersburg I stayed in a hostel. Two girls from Siberia were there. They had flown in to get UK visas. Their intention was to to the UK and never go back to Russia. One got the visa, the other didn't.
> ...



This would have been like 2009 I think. Yes, I can imagine that things are getting a little better in Russia. Maybe less and less people are leaving because they've left already, or given up trying, I don't know. 

I considered going to work in Russia but the salary would be rubbish. 

Yes, perhaps life is more expensive in Lithuania, but maybe things function better there. You pay for what you get.


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## frigidweirdo (Apr 11, 2018)

Balancer said:


> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> > Sure, but really, do you want to be buying that many big macs?
> ...



Yes, I understand. 

It makes sense, in a certain way. 

But yes there are many things to consider and different people will look at different things in order to say what is good and what is bad.


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## Balancer (Apr 11, 2018)

rightwinger said:


> Where is your industry?
> Where is your high tech trade?
> 
> Putin has kept you in the 80s



Russia in the field of high technology has already gone far from the level of the USSR. And, by the way, still keeps leadership before China. This is China buys technology in Russia, and not vice versa 

Of course, in the field of microelectronics we are lagging behind the West. But it was almost always, with rare exceptions. And 15 years of devastation only increased this gap. But, nevertheless, even in this area, Russia has advanced strongly.

In the Kaliningrad region, I lived in a small regional center for 27 thousand people. City Gusev. So, even there in the 2000s, a plant for the production of electronic components was built. And this year they launch the SSD production line


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## Balancer (Apr 11, 2018)

frigidweirdo said:


> Yes, perhaps life is more expensive in Lithuania, but maybe things function better there. You pay for what you get.



This is an assessment of wealthy people. For ordinary people, free services are much more attractive than paid ones, even better ones 

In Lithuania, according to the statements of Eurostat, 30.1% of the population live below the poverty line. In Russia it is 15%. As in the USA.

By the way, comparing with the US. People living below the poverty line in Russia receive all public free services. From medicine and education to solid payments for the birth of children (money that the state pays for two children born enough to purchase an apartment in a non-large city). And is there free medical care for Americans living below the poverty line?


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## Balancer (Apr 11, 2018)

frigidweirdo said:


> But yes there are many things to consider and different people will look at different things in order to say what is good and what is bad.



In Russia, of course, a lot of bad. I, as an IT person, hate the growth of various restrictions and prohibitions on the Internet. In Russia, a very high mortality from fires. We have a bizarre level of bureaucracy - to get paid for the second child, I had to wait more than a month. At us the level of school education has fallen, in comparison with the USSR. And so on and so forth. But it's funny that the West does not cover almost all of these problems. And, on the contrary, things that are either very outdated or have never been anything serious are constantly propagated  Such superficial assessments greatly undermine the trust of ordinary Russians towards the West. And they lead to constant political blunders of the West in attempts to influence Russia's internal affairs.


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## cnelsen (Apr 11, 2018)

Eugene said:


> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> > You're taking a guy who A) worked for the KGB under the USSR where he'd be immune of committing crimes unless it annoyed the politburo and B) a guy who has basically become dictator of the country
> ...



"
Putin and his team stopped robbing of Russia by western companies 
I do vote for such kind of dictatorship!
"
Or, more precisely, Jews.

Marc Rich and the Rape of Russia
The real Larry Summers scandal?
Stanley Fischer’s role in piratizing Russia’s wealth

Again.


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## cnelsen (Apr 11, 2018)

frigidweirdo said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> > frigidweirdo said:
> ...


Democracy? Are you kidding? Look where democracy has gotten us. 

Jews love "democracy" because, since Jews control the press, majority rule means Jews rule; they have us dancing like trained monkeys. 

Just consider all the fools who now hate Russia. And they don't even know why. We have no trade disputes with Russia. No religious conflicts. No border disputes. We've never been at war with Russia, yet here we are, on the brink of war with Russia, a nuclear superpower. It's just like Orwell's 1984. One day the New York Times tells us to hate Russia, and the next day, we do.  

Ask the average "well-informed" American who believes Russia is a threat what, exactly, it is that makes Russia such a threat. They'll mumble something about interfering in our election--a charge so laughably pathetic I sometimes wonder whether Haim Saban and George Soros and Sumner Redstone and Michael Eisner and the rest of the Jewish media moguls and billionaires have a secret gambling pool where they dare each other to get us to swallow ever more grotesque absurdities. 

Hey, New York Times, I dare you to undo a decade of racial progress by making a martyr out of an 80 IQ 280 lb human waste of a better-off-dead thug and demonize white people, and white civic virtue  in the same story.  (NYT: Yer on!) Hey Washington Post, I dare you to ignite a war between the two largest most powerful white Christian countries  over a $30k ad buy on the Internet--no, no, make it Facebook, haha, right Mark?--and get the battle to occur in Syria (which, remember, Jews deserve, thanks to our chosenness).

The fact of the matter is: Jews have wreaked havoc in Russia. Without Jews, Bolshevism would have never happened and 66 million white Christian upper class Russians wouldn't have been branded "Alt-Right", er, "enemies of the people", and ruthlessly slaughtered by the alien race among them.

And here's why Jews hate Putin. The Jews (with the assistance of Larry Summers and some other Jewish  academics from Harvard helping) were busy stripping Russia of every bit of wealth left in the wake of the collapse of the system they, themselves (with the help of Jewish money in the US and Sweden) , had enslaved Russia with. The  drunk and weak Yeltsin was not a man capable of interfering with the looting. He proved so pathetic he couldn't even keep up the role of a puppet, and so the oligarchs picked a young, promising ethnic Russian fast-rising KGB agent to step in and keep the gravy train going: Vladimir Putin. But they miscalculated. Once in power. Putin refused to betray his people. He was a patriot and a Christian, and he turned on them. He betrayed the enemies of his people, the Jews, and they have been gnashing their teeth with a white hot hatred ever since.

That's why the true Russian loves Putin, and why the Jews have all you idiot Americans hating him. 

I hope Trump is our Putin.


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## frigidweirdo (Apr 11, 2018)

Balancer said:


> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> > Yes, perhaps life is more expensive in Lithuania, but maybe things function better there. You pay for what you get.
> ...



Poverty lines and the like have to be understood. 

Seven Facts about Poverty in Lithuania

"*Very few people in Lithuania are desperately poor.* Extreme or desperate poverty isn’t common in Lithuania, less than one percent of the population lives on less than one dollar a day."

"*Poverty in Lithuania is widespread but shallow.* While very few Lithuanians are extremely poor, many live in moderate poverty. Lithuania’s poverty line is set at LTL 811 ($265), and around 20 percent of the population lives below this measure."

Poverty Rate in Russia Jumps to 16%

"Percentage-wise, that means 15.9 percent of Russians are now living below the poverty line, "

So I've got 16% and 20% for Russia and Lithuania, rather than 30% and 15%. 

However these figures are changing all the time, figures are seasonal too. 

Overall Russia has an average life expectancy of 69.83, while Lithuania has 73.07. At the same time Lithuania has a higher suicide rate, one of the highest in the world, Russia's not that far behind in the rankings, but 26.1 for Lithuania compared to 17.9 for Russia, compared to 12.6 for the US, 7.4 for the UK. 

Russia spends 6.5% of GDP on healthcare compared to 6.2% for Lithuania. 

Lots of statistics, lots of opinions, but at the end of the day, Russia should probably be doing better economically with all that oil money.


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## frigidweirdo (Apr 11, 2018)

Balancer said:


> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> > But yes there are many things to consider and different people will look at different things in order to say what is good and what is bad.
> ...



You have to remember that most Americans think the world looks like America. They went into Iraq thinking they were the liberators, and expected all Iraqis to think in the same manner. They were totally unable to change their mindset on it even after years of suffering heavy losses. 

Americans like things easy. A photo of a bread line tells them lots. Actually having to read an article which suggests that education might not be as good as it used to be isn't going to work much for them because you'd then have to consider your own education system and then realize that education is difficult to quantify. 

US universities will quantify, making ranking lists of universities and put themselves at the top of the pile and so on, but they want their attacks nice and simple, usually made up too.


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