# How Can We Solve The Illegal Immigration Problem?



## Madeline (Jun 11, 2010)

Why do Mexicans leave their homes and come to the US?  Because they have no opportunity for a decent life where they live.  Crime is rampant.  Corruption is rampant.  Unbearable poverty is inescapable there.  The US, as it always has, promises so much more that breaking the law to get here is worth it -- and for many, it has been a tradition.

No, we cannot absorb the illegals who are here now into our citizenry.  We need to deport them....but no matter how vigourously we enforce our immigration laws or secure our borders, we will never end the problem unless we take steps to change Mexico into a habitable place where people are content to remain.

The problem is not insoluable.  Mexico has the highest GDP of any Latin American nation.  What does the US need to do to entice Mexicans to return home and stay there?

What would YOU want from your home?  Safety.  Opportunity.  We need to legalize drugs and end the stranglehold of drug crime, and we need to require the Mexican government to adopt social policies that entice illegals to go home.  These people need to see the chance of a better life in Mexico, not the US.

That means we'll be paying more for food, as stoop laborers must be paid the minimum wage.  But I'd much rather do that than gun down Mexican teenagers and continue to support a Drug War with my taxes that has been a failure for decades.

An honest desire to end the problem of illegal immigration means that changes must be made in the way Americans live and the way we deal with Mexico.  It is entirely unrealistic to permit a third world nation to exist on our doorstep and then wonder why the people of that nation will go to any length to enter the US.


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## José (Jun 11, 2010)

Madeline's argument has one basic flaw:

*1 - The idea that Mexico's economic development will stop (or even greatly reduce) the flow of illegal Mexicans.*

No matter how much the mexican economy grows, the abyss that separates the mexican from the american minimum wage and their purchasing power will always be so huge that the mexican economic growth will have nothing but a negligible effect on illegal immigration.


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## Madeline (Jun 11, 2010)

I'm sure there is some validity to that assertion, Jose.  But in general, people do not grow up hoping to leave home and move some place that does not welcome them and where their native tongue is not spoken.  Most folks will remain in their nation of birth so long as they are safe and see opportunity.

Mexico has the means to be a much more populist nation than it is.  Today, it is basically run to accommodate the elite and the drug gangs.  The US's foreign policy ignores or encourages this, and our policies at home encourage illegal immigration.

If we cannot allow every impoverished Mexican to move here, then we have to start addressing the reasons why they are so desperate to leave Mexico.  I don't see any alternative -- do you?


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## José (Jun 11, 2010)

I greatly respect and admire your deep sense of compassion towards the mexican people, Madeline, even thogh I don't think your idea will have a significant impact on mexican illegal immigration...

While so many americans are having murderous fantasies about shooting illegal mexicans as they cross the border you are here trying to come up with a plan to improve their lives in Mexico.

There is a world of difference between you and the super patriotic american clowns of this Message Board who think its OK to shoot a mexican crossing the border *INSTEAD OF JUST ARRESTING AND DEPORTING THEM*.

The same difference that exists between Jesus Christ and monsters like Hitler, Stalin and Truman.

Regardless of what you, member of the US Message Board, think of Madeline's idea you have to agree with me that her plan is *MORALLY SUPERIOR* because it seeks to solve America's immigration problem and improve the living conditions for all mexicans at the same time.


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## syrenn (Jun 11, 2010)

Madeline said:


> Why do Mexicans leave their homes and come to the US?  Because they have no opportunity for a decent life where they live.  Crime is rampant.  Corruption is rampant.  Unbearable poverty is inescapable there.  The US, as it always has, promises so much more that breaking the law to get here is worth it -- and for many, it has been a tradition.




Agreed, but they are still illegal. They break the law coming here. 




Madeline said:


> No, we cannot absorb the illegals who are here now into our citizenry.  We need to deport them....but no matter how vigourously we enforce our immigration laws or secure our borders, we will never end the problem unless we take steps to change Mexico into a habitable place where people are content to remain.



And why should it be OUR responsibility to change mexico?




Madeline said:


> The problem is not insoluable.  Mexico has the highest GDP of any Latin American nation.  What does the US need to do to entice Mexicans to return home and stay there?



Why should we have to entice them to do anything, especially to go home? You don't roll out the red carpet in the first place and say come on in for all the free stuff. You don't entice them to go home, you make them go home where they belong or stop them from coming in the first place. If they come legally FINE they are more then welcome and i applaud them for coming. I hope they make it and survive here. 





Madeline said:


> What would YOU want from your home?  Safety.  Opportunity.  We need to legalize drugs and end the stranglehold of drug crime, and we need to require the Mexican government to adopt social policies that entice illegals to go home.  These people need to see the chance of a better life in Mexico, not the US.



Do we really need to do that to stop the tide of illegals? How would legalizing drugs make it safer for illegals or give them more oppotunities here in this country? Do you mean safer to buy, sell and traffic drugs. Or a larger opportunity to drug dealers and opperate with impunity?

Don't be so naive. How are WE to make mexico adopt social programs? WE need to stop giving them social programs here in the US that makes US so enticing to them




Madeline said:


> That means we'll be paying more for food, as stoop laborers must be paid the minimum wage.  But I'd much rather do that than gun down Mexican teenagers and continue to support a Drug War with my taxes that has been a failure for decades.



Agreed food prices would go up. But it is also illegal to hire illegals, so what you would see is a price check. As to gunning down teenagers, do you really think they picked him saying "oh a teenager, lets shoot him?" They shoot someone crossing the boarder illegaly throwing rocks.  Good for the boarder patrol. 




Madeline said:


> An honest desire to end the problem of illegal immigration means that changes must be made in the way Americans live and the way we deal with Mexico.  It is entirely unrealistic to permit a third world nation to exist on our doorstep and then wonder why the people of that nation will go to any length to enter the US.



Good grief woman, why should WE have to change our lives to deal with mexican illegals? Why is it unrealistic to have them exist on our doorstep? We know why they will go to any length to come here, its free.


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## Madeline (Jun 11, 2010)

> syrenn wrote in part:
> 
> Good grief woman, why should WE have to change our lives to deal with mexican illegals? Why is it unrealistic to have them exist on our doorstep? We know why they will go to any length to come here, its free.



syrenn, ever visited a very wealthy community surrounded by poor people?  Someplace like Bloomfield Hills near Detroit?  Do you know how they keep safe?  Their cops pick up everyone black or hispanic and demand to know why they're there.  They stop every beaten down car.  They stop people on foot or on bicycles and demand to know what they are doing there, especially if they look out of place (meaning, not dressed like a wealthy person).

Americans have to change their lives by paying farm workers and wait staff and domestic workers a minimum wage -- and by effectively denying US businesses and employers the right to hire illegals.  We have to stop importing Haitians into the Florida sugar fields on special visas that allow Big Sugar to use even children to harvest the crop -- and to do this, we have to agree that a bag of sugar will cost $10, not $1.

We have to look beyond our own borders and see what our selfish, stupid War on Drugs has done to the nations of Latin America.  Those drugs are grown and brought here for US use...then let's legalize them, tax them and get the criminals out of the drug trade.

It is simply not realistic to believe that Mexicans can live horrible, wretched lives while Americans live good ones and illegal immigration will just magically end.  As long as there is this terrible disparity in security and opportunity, Mexicans will strive to become Americans.  They leave home for EXACTLY the same reason my folks did in the 1920's.


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## syrenn (Jun 11, 2010)

Madeline said:


> > syrenn wrote in part:
> >
> > Good grief woman, why should WE have to change our lives to deal with mexican illegals? Why is it unrealistic to have them exist on our doorstep? We know why they will go to any length to come here, its free.
> 
> ...



And what has that rant have anything to do with how to stop illegal immigration? No dear I don't think they stop EVERY care or person. That is unless they are trying to enter a gated community. The have's and have not's and the redistribution of  wealth and money is not going to solve the immigration problem. 


Americans have to change their lives by paying farm workers and wait staff and domestic workers a minimum wage -- and by effectively denying US businesses and employers the right to hire illegals.  We have to stop importing Haitians into the Florida sugar fields on special visas that allow Big Sugar to use even children to harvest the crop -- and to do this, we have to agree that a bag of sugar will cost $10, not $1.[/QUOTE]

Agreed. It is illegal to hire illegal workers.Please show me where we in the Florida that sugar company's hire child labor?  

Again child labor is a separate issue and has nothing to do with the flow of illegals into this country.


We have to look beyond our own borders and see what our selfish, stupid War on Drugs has done to the nations of Latin America.  Those drugs are grown and brought here for US use...then let's legalize them, tax them and get the criminals out of the drug trade.[/QUOTE]


Really? Why is it selfish and stupid? Are you so naive as to think that legalizing drugs will stop what is going on in other countries? 

And again what does the drug trade have anything to so with illegal immigration? Are you saying that ALL illegals come here to deal drugs?

It is simply not realistic to believe that Mexicans can live horrible, wretched lives while Americans live good ones and illegal immigration will just magically end.  As long as there is this terrible disparity in security and opportunity, Mexicans will strive to become Americans.  They leave home for EXACTLY the same reason my folks did in the 1920's.[/QUOTE]

Why is it not realistic to think that? GOOD let the world come legally and there will be no problem.


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## Madeline (Jun 11, 2010)

I think your POVs are sincere, syrenn, but they are short-sighted.  American agriculture rides high on the American taxpayer, the barely-legal imported worker (who is escorted out after the harvest) and the illegal immigrant.   We cannot buy food at the prices our parents did and expect that illegal immigration will ever end.  Just as no _other_  fraud that pays huge dividends ends on its own.

Yes, Haitian children work the sugar cane harvest in Florida.  It may be convenient not to know this but that does not make it any less true.  And Mexican children also do stoop labor in California and other states....what do you think gave Che Guevara his popularity in the US?  None of this is news...it's just the reality most Americans don't want to face.

We prefer to worry about whether to buy leather seats for our SUVs and feel deprived if we cannot.  Very few of us know what it's like to face real hunger or fear for our lives from criminals, but Mexicans do.  This horrendous pressure on Mexico's poor must be eased or the folks will continue to flee here.  And let me be 100% clear -- Americans have to allow their standard of living to slip a little to bring Mexico's up.  The ONLY alternative is the lawlessness and suffering we see now in many American communities.  In my mind, that's a result that costs everyone too dearly.

I think it's supremely hypocritical to say "end illegal immigration" but refuse to deal with the factors that cause it.


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## The Infidel (Jun 11, 2010)

Invade Mexico?


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## Madeline (Jun 11, 2010)

I dunno, The Infidel.  We "arrested" Noreiga to free Panama from a dictator (I suppose); certainly we need to at least partner with Mexico to reverse the trend of concentrating its wealth in fewer and fewer hands.


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## xsited1 (Jun 11, 2010)

Madeline said:


> How Can We Solve The Illegal Immigration Problem?



The US should buy Mexico and divide it into 7 States.  Then we'll have 57 States.


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## syrenn (Jun 11, 2010)

Madeline said:


> I think your POVs are sincere, syrenn, but they are short-sighted.  American agriculture rides high on the American taxpayer, the barely-legal imported worker (who is escorted out after the harvest) and the illegal immigrant.   We cannot buy food at the prices our parents did and expect that illegal immigration will ever end.  Just as no _other_  fraud that pays huge dividends ends on its own.



Dont mistake or assume that a do not know and understand about the farm labor problem. 

What does the taxpayer have anything to do with "_the barely-legal imported worker (who is escorted out after the harvest) and the illegal immigrant"? _ 

No one EXPECTS the prices of food to be the same as what our parents paid. Why do you think or assume that no one thinks the price of produce will go up if illegals are not longer available to hire? Could it be that YOU don't what YOUR prices to go up and you selfishly want them to stay in the fields as low payed workers? 



Madeline said:


> Yes, Haitian children work the sugar cane harvest in Florida.  It may be convenient not to know this but that does not make it any less true.  And Mexican children also do stoop labor in California and other states....what do you think gave Che Guevara his popularity in the US?  None of this is news...it's just the reality most Americans don't want to face..



Link please to all the child sugar labor in the US.

And who's fault is that that if there is child labor doing stoop work in CA fields? I would think its the  illegal parents fault.

Bottom line if that is happening in this country than it is illegal. 



Madeline said:


> We prefer to worry about whether to buy leather seats for our SUVs and feel deprived if we cannot.  Very few of us know what it's like to face real hunger or fear for our lives from criminals, but Mexicans do.  This horrendous pressure on Mexico's poor must be eased or the folks will continue to flee here.  And let me be 100% clear -- Americans have to allow their standard of living to slip a little to bring Mexico's up.  The ONLY alternative is the lawlessness and suffering we see now in many American communities.  In my mind, that's a result that costs everyone too dearly.



Really is that what we are all thinking, about SUV's and leather seats? You sure? And again what does that have anything to do with the illegal immigration problem? And again why is it up to us to ease what is going on in a different country?  

Do we? We Have to?

AND WHY do WE have to lower our standards of life to BRING UP MEXICO'S? Please explain that.

Please explain how you leap to lawlessness and suffering in this country to the illegal immigration problem? Are you saying that illegals are the reason for lawlessness in this country? Are you saying that illegals are all criminals?



Madeline said:


> I think it's supremely hypocritical to say "end illegal immigration" but refuse to deal with the factors that cause it.



I don't believe anyone would doubt or refute that the poor conditions in illegals home countries is the REASON for the illegal immigration problem.


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## tsalkonocii (Jun 11, 2010)

Madeline said:


> *How Can We Solve The Illegal Immigration Problem?*


*

Arm the border. Warn them once, then shoot to kill.

*


> Why do Mexicans leave their homes and come to the US?




The illegals? To run drugs and evade law enforcement because they're rapists and murderers. Actual (legal) immigrants come for the same reasons as the vast majority of immigrants.


> Because they have no opportunity for a decent life where they live.  Crime is rampant.  Corruption is rampant.  Unbearable poverty is inescapable there.  The US, as it always has, promises so much more that breaking the law to get here is worth it -- and for many, it has been a tradition.



A tradition of crime? And we're to respect that crime because it's tradition? 


> No, we cannot absorb the illegals who are here now into our citizenry



We can absorb none. Line them all up and shoot every last one of them.

You want to move here, you fill out the paperwork and get in line.


> .  We need to deport them...



So they can try again? No, we simply need to shoot them.

You want to improve Mexico? Move there and start organizing your new brothers and sisters to reform the nation and society. I recommend joining the Zapatistas (while they're there, grab me some coffee. I had some of their [The Zapatistas'] coffee once and it was pretty good)


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## tsalkonocii (Jun 11, 2010)

Madeline said:


> ever visited a very wealthy community surrounded by poor people?  Someplace like Bloomfield Hills near Detroit?  Do you know how they keep safe?  Their cops pick up everyone black or hispanic and demand to know why they're there.  They stop every beaten down car.  They stop people on foot or on bicycles and demand to know what they are doing there, especially if they look out of place (meaning, not dressed like a wealthy person).



And I gave them my ID card (I visited a rather nice area to look for work a few years back while I was down on my luck and looked less than wealthy) and they let me alone after running my name and determining that I was committing no crime. One even gave me sandwich and informed me of a job fair that would be occurring a few days later. In the several states I've visited, I've only rarely met an officer who wasn't quite helpful and pleasant when they determined I was an honest sort.


> Americans have to change their lives by paying farm workers and wait staff and domestic workers a minimum wage



Come here legally and you'll get that as a legal resident who works over the table.


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## Madeline (Jun 11, 2010)

tsalkonocii, the minimum wage law and the social security law has always exempted farm and domestic laborers, as well as restaurant staff.

BTW, I find your murderous intentions towards illegals appalling.  If your family were starving and terrified of criminals who murder and commit all forms of mayhem, I imagine you'd do anything possible to get them to safety.  Too bad we didn't turn back YOUR folks when they sought to enter the US.


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## Madeline (Jun 11, 2010)

> syrenn wrote in part:
> 
> AND WHY do WE have to lower our standards of life to BRING UP MEXICO'S? Please explain that.



Illegal labor in the US adds an unknown but admittedly huge profit level to US business.  Beyond that, it allows some US businesses, especially agriculture, to sell products at prices we would never see if the labor were legal and workplace safety laws were enforced.

Beyond that, illegals who work under false papers (which is most) contribute a healthy $5 Billion per year to the Social Security Trust Fund for benefits they will never collect.  If their contributions are halted, Americans will have to face TODAY the problems of overpromising entitlements that most pols and most Americans would rather be drug through a hedge backwards than admit.

Beyond that, Mexico needs foreign aid from the US and elsewhere.  Although programs to redistribute its wealth and develop a decent tax base can take that nation far, they won't go far enough or fast enough.  It is not in the best interests of the US to have its next door neighbor starve.  I dunno what is so difficult to see about this.


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## tsalkonocii (Jun 11, 2010)

Madeline said:


> what do you think gave Che Guevara his popularity in the US?



The stupidity of the far left?

Only Mexicans can improve the condition of Mexico. Just look at the blacks in America or the aid we send to Africa- all the handouts in the world change nothing if the people of the region aren't prepared to stand up and take serious measures to improve things.


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## tsalkonocii (Jun 11, 2010)

Madeline said:


> I dunno, The Infidel.  We "arrested" Noreiga to free Panama from a dictator (I suppose); certainly we need to at least partner with Mexico to reverse the trend of concentrating its wealth in fewer and fewer hands.


That's not why we arrested Noriega.

He, like bin Laden, was a CIA asset that stabbed us in the back.


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## Angelhair (Jun 11, 2010)

_Mexico is a sovereign nation.  They are a proud people even tho in my opinion, misplaced pride - but - they do not appreciate any country, and especially the USA, interferring in their internal affairs, although they have NO problem interferring in ours - which is why I say it's a country that has suferred centuries with a warped mentality born out of poverty, lawlessness, chaos, misery, corruption, and in many instances, ignorance.  This is what this country keeps fighting against.....a losing battle._


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## nraforlife (Jun 11, 2010)

Very simple folks- kill as many as it takes to persuade them to stop coming here.


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## Big Black Dog (Jun 11, 2010)

Three very simple words will end this problem with illegal aliens.  LOCK AND LOAD.


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## American Horse (Jun 11, 2010)

Madeline said:


> An honest desire to end the problem of illegal immigration means that changes must be made in the way Americans live and the way we deal with Mexico.  It is entirely unrealistic to permit a third world nation to exist on our doorstep and then wonder why the people of that nation will go to any length to enter the US.



This simply points up the enormity of the problem, because it makes it seem that we need comprehensive immigration reform before doing the obvious; stop the influx at the border. 

Here's a variation of the Bush plan: If the workforce of the same people who enforce job safety (OSHA) on employers was expanded, and then given the added responsibility to go to the job-sites, with the announced and certain purpose to not arrest the illegal immigrants but make them legal, that would allow us deal with it at the point of demand.

They would hand out registration documents that would, within a period limited of time, and with a deadline require them to provide personal information for the purpose of obtaining a tamper proof ID badge which they would be required to wear anytime they were at the place of employment. Eventually, any person not working at jobsites which were predominantly using properly credentialed employees would stand out like a sore thumb and would merit closer scrutiny, because the employer, not the employed would be breaking the law. 

That employer should then be given a modest fine; something like $1,000, with a daily re-occurrence of maybe $250. It would be important to not make the fine too high, because that is an excuse to not enforce the law because of it being too burdensom. We need to just make the use of illegals operating outside the system more costly then any benefit to them to use that employee.

Taxes would be paid into a separate SS type account which would remain theirs, and they could take back home if the chose to go there and draw benefits with a reasonable accrual of interest. With their Work-ID they could apply for driver licenses with a "flag" on that license which would signify their status.

To become naturalized citizens they would have to go through all the same procedures as any other, and those procedures need to be bucked up, for instance requiring the learning of the English language.

Going back to first priorities; if we stop the flow at the border, then the chaos of crime could be stopped. More legal entry points could be added and people could go back and forth daily, and legally. We need to give those who aren't sufficiently interested in US citizenship a reason and the facility to return.


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## José (Jun 11, 2010)

> Originally posted by *Count Dracula*
> Three very simple words will end this problem with illegal aliens. LOCK AND LOAD.



Here's another option, Anglo from Hell...

Get your white ass out of the US occupied Mexican territories while you still have it...


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## syrenn (Jun 11, 2010)

Madeline said:


> > syrenn wrote in part:
> >
> > AND WHY do WE have to lower our standards of life to BRING UP MEXICO'S? Please explain that.
> 
> ...


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## Madeline (Jun 11, 2010)

syrenn, Americans have to eat.  They will have to pay MUCH more for food if the illegals are barred from employment in US Big Agriculture.  I think the impact could be reduced if the US quit paying price supports and giving tax discounts to the industry, but overall I think prices would rise.  (I think the truth is no one really knows what would happened.)  It's the price supports and tax discounts that IMO will affect taxpayers -- but not in a bad way.

I am in favor of the arrest and deportation of illegals.  But if they are found at a workplace, I'm in favor of mandated prison terms for the _employers_  -- along with tremendous, confiscatory fines.  I'd deport the damned traitors if I could, but that is unconstitutional.

Mexico is a difficult but not insoluable problem and the very FIRST thing Americans need to do to halt illegal immigration is demand that laws against employment and other forms of profiteering on illegals be strictly enforced.  Just know that if that actually happened, there would be a tremendous impact on our economy....the fate of the US is linked to the fate of Mexico, whether we like it or not.


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## Madeline (Jun 11, 2010)

American Horse said:


> Madeline said:
> 
> 
> > An honest desire to end the problem of illegal immigration means that changes must be made in the way Americans live and the way we deal with Mexico.  It is entirely unrealistic to permit a third world nation to exist on our doorstep and then wonder why the people of that nation will go to any length to enter the US.
> ...



You have some great ideas, American Horse.  But Amnesty for illegals is unrealistic; we cannot absorb 11 to 20 Million new citizens into our midst without bankrupting already stressed social service programs.  That may yet happen anyway even though clearly it'd be disaster -- but ask yourself, if Amnesty passes, what deterrant would exist to dissuade any _other_  Mexican from entering the US illegally?

I actually have sympathy for Americans living on the border, watching illegals cross their land and fearing them as any reasonable person would.  I have compassion for everyone caught up in this debacle......but I want Mexicans to have a nation they are content to live in.

There doesn't seem to me to be any way around it -- Mexico has to be made habitable for Mexicans, or they will flee.


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## tsalkonocii (Jun 11, 2010)

Count Dracula said:


> Three very simple words will end this problem with illegal aliens.  LOCK AND LOAD.


Still using the old flintlocks? You really should upgrade to one of these


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## tsalkonocii (Jun 11, 2010)

José;2401502 said:
			
		

> > Originally posted by *Count Dracula*
> > Three very simple words will end this problem with illegal aliens. LOCK AND LOAD.
> 
> 
> ...


You lost every last one of those wars, remember?


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## Madeline (Jun 11, 2010)

tsalkonocii, which do you think is more frightening?  An American rancher or farmer waving a gun or a Mexican drug cartel with a rep for torture murders chasing your ass?  Why is murder even an option when you attempt to address the underlying causes of illegal immigration?  We cannot EVER frighten people enough to prevent illegal immigration -- they need to _choose_  to remain because their home is safe and secure, and they can live decently there.

BTW, whatever second rate nation your people crawled away from is welcome to have YOU back.  You're no more an "American" than Stalin was.


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## tsalkonocii (Jun 11, 2010)

Who said anything about frightening anyone? I said shoot them, not fire a warning shot. 

Why do you hate the idea of the USA as a sovereign nation?

We can't fix Mexico. Only the Mexicans can do that. Don't waste the time and money like we've been doing with the entirety of Africa. Until they decide to rise up and  change things, nobody an help them. All we can do is defend our own nation against those who seek to destroy it in the name of a _reconquista _(stupid Mexicans wail about the evil White man yet think speaking the language of those who raped, murdered, and enslaved their ancestors is a sign of pride while spitting on the free nation they come crawling to is the 'in' thing to do) and a racist vision of 'recreating' a nation that never was. There is zero difference between the 100 Year Reich and Atzlan save the colour of the 'superior race' they seek to promote while eliminating all others.


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## tsalkonocii (Jun 11, 2010)

Madeline said:


> BTW, whatever second rate nation your people crawled away from is welcome to have YOU back


Seeing as I haven't returned and have no intention of doing so 

My family left those nations to come here for good reasons. I remember those reasons and seek to preserve and further improve the great nation to which they came for a better life. That's what a real American is. A real American remembers what America is and why people came here and why people continue to come here. A real American seeks to preserve this nation and ensure that it remains the greatest nation on Earth- and you can't do that if you stand against national sovereignty and seek to undermine it. You, as someone who despises our sovereignty and seeks to undermine it, are an enemy of this nation and a traitor.


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## hortysir (Jun 11, 2010)

Madeline said:


> tsalkonocii, the *minimum wage law and the social security law has always exempted farm and domestic laborers, as well as restaurant staff.*
> 
> BTW, I find your murderous intentions towards illegals appalling.  If your family were starving and terrified of criminals who murder and commit all forms of mayhem, I imagine you'd do anything possible to get them to safety.  Too bad we didn't turn back YOUR folks when they sought to enter the US.


Care to back up that claim?



And why can't Mexican citizens seek safety inland of their own country, away from the border-trafficking areas?


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## tsalkonocii (Jun 11, 2010)

At least where I come from, if a waiter/ress' wages + tips < less than minimum wage, the employer must pay the difference. They never take home less than minimum wage and the system works in their favour, as they can lie about their tips to increase their income. 


So don't bother me with stupid sob stories about underpaid waitresses. They get paid no less than anyone else.


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## LilOlLady (Jun 11, 2010)

Madeline said:


> Why do Mexicans leave their homes and come to the US?  Because they have no opportunity for a decent life where they live.  Crime is rampant.  Corruption is rampant.  Unbearable poverty is inescapable there.  The US, as it always has, promises so much more that breaking the law to get here is worth it -- and for many, it has been a tradition.
> 
> No, we cannot absorb the illegals who are here now into our citizenry.  We need to deport them....but no matter how vigourously we enforce our immigration laws or secure our borders, we will never end the problem unless *we take steps to change Mexico *into a habitable place where people are content to remain.
> 
> ...



We do not need illegal aliens.


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## Madeline (Jun 11, 2010)

tsalkonocii said:


> Madeline said:
> 
> 
> > BTW, whatever second rate nation your people crawled away from is welcome to have YOU back
> ...



What a joke.  So YOUR family's reasons for emigrating here are sufficient but no one's in Mexico are?  I don't know which part of your post annoys me more.  If you had any concern for the future of our country (as opposed to merely an interest in bullshitting around on a message board) you'd be willing to discuss what _causes_  illegal immigration and how we can resolve it.

Step One: enforce existing immigration laws, including laws about deportation.

Step Two:  secure the borders.

Step Three:  find the US employers who knowingly or negligently hire illegal aliens, prosecute them, throw them in prison and confiscate their businesses.

Step Four:  lean on Mexico to address the needs of its _own_  poor.  Repeal NAFTA.  Give Calderon benchmarks to meet or else we invade and arrest him for crimes against the US (or whatever).  Send in troops if needed to keep the peace.  Send foreign aid, to build factories and help re-establish a middle class.  Legalize drugs to remove the ginormous profits now commanded by the drug cartels.


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## peter (Jun 11, 2010)

xsited1 said:


> Madeline said:
> 
> 
> > How Can We Solve The Illegal Immigration Problem?
> ...



Why? We don't want so many poor people here. They'll flood us.


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## Madeline (Jun 11, 2010)

> LilOlLady wrote in part:
> 
> WE CAN NEVER CHANGE MEXICO UNTIL WE STOP THE INCENTIVES THAT BRING THEM HERE. JOBS. WHY WOULD MEXICO CHANGE WHEN WE DO THE JOBS FOR THEM AND THEY GET $35 BILLION SENT TO THEIR ECONOMY EACH YEAR?



One ginormous reason people leave Mexico for the US is fear of crime (or, in the case of criminals, richer victims).  Are you seriously telling me we cannot have an impact on lawlessness?  We've brought order to Somalia, to Bosnia, to Afghanistan (sort of).  Why would Mexico pose some insoluable problem?



> LilOlLady wrote in part:
> 
> AFRICA IS AT OUR DOOR STEPS?



Shame on you.  Shame, shame, shame.  Ignorance and xenophobia won't get us anywhere.  I'm truly shocked at you, Ma'am.


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## The T (Jun 11, 2010)

Track 'em down...deport them And that goes not only for Mexicans...but everyone else. They're here illegally...and they need to go back to where they came from until such time they can do it lawfully...the whole lot of them.

We are a nation of LAW not of men. High time we started acting like it.


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## Madeline (Jun 11, 2010)

Agreed, The T.  Then what?


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## American Horse (Jun 11, 2010)

Madeline said:


> American Horse said:
> 
> 
> > Madeline said:
> ...



Please read again; I did not mention amnesty anywhere in my post.  Consider what I said about how we could actually take them into account (account for them), formalize their presence, and discourage them from coming by limiting their access to jobs by finally dealing with them at the place of employment.  

As I said, a reasonable fine for each incident of say $1,000 from the employer each time a violation occurs, making it low enough that it would actually be enforced, would drastically reduce the availability of jobs. Lots of times fines are made so large that no one goes out to enforce because the punishment would seem to be unreasonable. Many times when those very high fines (or punishments) actually are enforced in those rare occasions, anyone would have to conclude it is out of a disregard for equal justice.

I am pragmatic enough to understand that we are absolutely not going to send back any appreciable number of them, but if they couldn't work without their an ID card clipped to their shirt pocket or collar we would have a handle on it.  And they would be out of the "shadows." A special SS account with funds collected from their own wages would be available to them either when they returned to Mexico, or upon retirement here if they became naturalized (further method of enforcement).  

With the low cost of living in Mexico, they could live quite will on their savings.  Lots of retired US citizens go there to live because they can stretch out their savings a lot longer there than they can at home.    

Again....No Amnesty!


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## kurtsprincess (Jun 11, 2010)

Madeline said:


> I think your POVs are sincere, syrenn, but they are short-sighted.  American agriculture rides high on the American taxpayer, the barely-legal imported worker (who is escorted out after the harvest) and the illegal immigrant.   We cannot buy food at the prices our parents did and expect that illegal immigration will ever end.  Just as no _other_  fraud that pays huge dividends ends on its own.
> 
> Yes, Haitian children work the sugar cane harvest in Florida.  It may be convenient not to know this but that does not make it any less true.  And Mexican children also do stoop labor in California and other states....what do you think gave Che Guevara his popularity in the US?  None of this is news...it's just the reality most Americans don't want to face.
> 
> ...



What if the borders were secured and illegals could not come to America? Perhaps they would take that desire, energy and quest for a better life and effect change in their own countries.  I think that helping illegals does nothing more than keep them imprisoned in their own poverty.  When their backs are against the wall regarding corruption and danger in their own country, instead of standing up and fighting for a better society, they run.

I would rather help them rid their country of corruption than to lower our standards for legal immigration.


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## Bullfighter (Jun 11, 2010)

Madeline said:


> tsalkonocii said:
> 
> 
> > Madeline said:
> ...



One and Two are just plain common sense.

Three won't happen because hispanics hire the Mexicans more than any other employer.

Four won't happen because Washington does not have the nerve to declare war against Mexico but will bomb virtually any Muslim country because they harbor "terrorists" that do almost zero damage to Americans. 

And 9-11 was all about getting the US Army away from the border and out of the country. Terrorism was just a pretext.


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## tsalkonocii (Jun 11, 2010)

Madeline said:


> tsalkonocii said:
> 
> 
> > Madeline said:
> ...





Do you know what you're babbling about, because nobody else can figure it out.


> I don't know which part of your post annoys me more.  If you had any concern for the future of our country (as opposed to merely an interest in bullshitting around on a message board) you'd be willing to discuss what causes  illegal immigration and how we can resolve it.




It caused by criminals who don't want to get in line and come here legally


it's as simple as that

plenty of people come form mexico the legal way, son don't try to act like they can't if they want to


> Step One: enforce existing immigration laws, including laws about deportation.



yet you refuse to enforce our borders and you attack those who want to do so


> Step Two:  secure the borders.



yet you attack me and others who propose just that



> Step Three:  find the US employers who knowingly or negligently hire illegal aliens, prosecute them, throw them in prison and confiscate their businesses.



you attack people who support exactly that


> Step Four:  lean on Mexico to address the needs of its own  poor.  Repeal NAFTA.



as I said, only mexicans can fix mexico


you attacked me for saying that, so don't try to turn around and claim the very positions you've been attacking repeatedly





> Give Calderon benchmarks to meet or else we invade and arrest him for crimes against the US (or whatever).  Send in troops if needed to keep the peace.




so now you support invading mexico?


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## José (Jun 11, 2010)

tsalkonocii said:


> José;2401502 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Dude, you and Dracula are screwed in the head... Get a shrink...

These two cretins, imbeciles are openly, shamelessly advocating the killing of illegal mexicans in cold blood. I support the right of America to expel illegals but when I see mentally deranged individuals like you two I almost wish the country drowned in an ocean of illegal mexicans... It serves nazi Anglos like you well.


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## tsalkonocii (Jun 11, 2010)

It's not cold blood. It's defending the nation from attack, same as shooting a man on a plane with a bomb. We can only assume they are so intent on evading the law and refusing to cross legally because they are.,in fact, serial rapists, _coyotes_, or terrorists.

Border patrol has too often been caught un or ill-armed. It's time to get serious about our sovereignty.

For the record, I'm neither a Nazi nor an Anglo- which is a near impossible combination anyway, since the Nazis wanted a Nordic super race (despite most Germans being primarily Alpine) and the Angles, like the Jutes didn't _quite_ fit the bill. They were more like close cousins to the true Nords/Aryans (Who'd be more along the lines of the Scandinavians).

My ancestors, depending on the branch of my family you want to deal with, never dealt with the Anglos, frought with them all the time, or raped and pillaged them repeatedly and took over their lands for a while.  At point were they ever really friends until after my family had left (ion all instances), although peace had been established.


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## Madeline (Jun 11, 2010)

kurtsprincess said:


> Madeline said:
> 
> 
> > I think your POVs are sincere, syrenn, but they are short-sighted.  American agriculture rides high on the American taxpayer, the barely-legal imported worker (who is escorted out after the harvest) and the illegal immigrant.   We cannot buy food at the prices our parents did and expect that illegal immigration will ever end.  Just as no _other_  fraud that pays huge dividends ends on its own.
> ...



kurtsprincess, if your folks had not been EXACTLY the sorts of cowards you accuse poor Mexicans of being, you would not be in the US yourself.  

Neither would I. 

I have no complaint with your notions of closing the borders (difficult, probably not impossible) or keeping existing laws about illegal immigration.  I haven't any desire to "lower" them.  

But I cannot understand your belief that forcing Mexico to deal with its own people in a more just fashion is somehow going to _increase_  illegal immigration.


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## syrenn (Jun 11, 2010)

Madeline said:


> syrenn, Americans have to eat.  They will have to pay MUCH more for food if the illegals are barred from employment in US Big Agriculture.  I think the impact could be reduced if the US quit paying price supports and giving tax discounts to the industry, but overall I think prices would rise.  (I think the truth is no one really knows what would happened.)  It's the price supports and tax discounts that IMO will affect taxpayers -- but not in a bad way.



Agreed. AND? I am more then willing to pay more to have legal citizens working. ARE YOU? 

AND again what does any of this have to do with "solving" the illegal immigration problem?



Madeline said:


> I am in favor of the arrest and deportation of illegals.  But if they are found at a workplace, I'm in favor of mandated prison terms for the _employers_  -- along with tremendous, confiscatory fines.  I'd deport the damned traitors if I could, but that is unconstitutional.



So am I. I want legal workers being paid legal wages. I want employers who make this country attractive to illegals prosecuted for breaking the law and hiring illegals.



Madeline said:


> Mexico is a difficult but not insoluable problem and the very FIRST thing Americans need to do to halt illegal immigration is demand that laws against employment and other forms of profiteering on illegals be strictly enforced.  Just know that if that actually happened, there would be a tremendous impact on our economy....the fate of the US is linked to the fate of Mexico, whether we like it or not.




 NO SHIT. Then if you agree that we need to HALT illegal immigration why are you going on and on and talking in circles about 10 different subjects that have nothing to do with your OP?

GREAT! I don't care if the price of things goes up.I care that this country is being invaded by illegals FROM ALL OVER THE WORLD!  Get over the mexican thing you got going. That seems to be your fear? And you seem to make a case that you want oppressed illegal workers slaving away so you can have sugar for a dollar. 

Really I would think it is the other way around. mexicos fate is linked to us. If mexico goes down if flames it wont matter to us. However if we go down in flames it will mean a GREAT deal to mexico.


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## Madeline (Jun 11, 2010)

Mexicans enter the US illegally for two reasons:  conditions at home have become desperate and conditions in the US appear to be attractive.  When my folks decided to leave Scotland, they did not fetch up in Jordan.  Or China.  Or Vietnam...they went where they believed things would be _better_.

To solve the problem of illegal immigration we have to end the employment opportunities these folks find here so easily AND address the conditions that are driving them out of their home to begin with.  US employers that hire illegals are basically bribing people to break the law and show no regard for the communities that suffer because of their greed.

And yes, I'd pay the freight for food harvested and prepared by workers paid a decent wage and given decent working conditions.  I do not need another cesar chicken salad so badly anyone has to accept slave wages to deliver it to me.


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## syrenn (Jun 11, 2010)

Madeline said:


> What a joke.  So YOUR family's reasons for emigrating here are sufficient but no one's in Mexico are?  I don't know which part of your post annoys me more.  If you had any concern for the future of our country (as opposed to merely an interest in bullshitting around on a message board) you'd be willing to discuss what _causes_  illegal immigration and how we can resolve it.
> 
> Step One: enforce existing immigration laws, including laws about deportation.
> 
> ...




You were doing just fine and staying to one idea up until the last paragraph.



Madeline said:


> Step Four:  lean on Mexico to address the needs of its _own_  poor.



Why should we lean on him when we have our own poor to worry about? Its their country and they can do what they want.



Madeline said:


> Repeal NAFTA.



NO SHIT!



Madeline said:


> Give Calderon benchmarks to meet or else we invade and arrest him for crimes against the US (or whatever).




And why should we be so arrogant to "give" any other leader bench marks to meet? Invade, Why? They are invading US if you haven't noticed. Crimes agains the us? That is what every illegal is doing. How about we arrest them and send them back home?




Madeline said:


> Send in troops if needed to keep the peace.



Let them keep their own peace. Dont you think we are involved in enough "wars" already? Dont you think we are sticking our noses in far to many peoples business and it is now? Why should we add mexico to the list?



Madeline said:


> Send foreign aid, to build factories and help re-establish a middle class.



We already DO send mexico aid. We already do build factories their STEALING American jobs. Its call outsourcing.  Tell me why should we establish a middle class in a foreign country when the middle class in THIS country is suffering?



Madeline said:


> Legalize drugs to remove the ginormous profits now commanded by the drug cartels.



Are you suggesting that EVERY illegal here is somehow involved in the drug trad? If not then legalizing drugs has NOTHING to do with the illegal immigration problem.


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## kurtsprincess (Jun 11, 2010)

Madeline said:


> kurtsprincess said:
> 
> 
> > Madeline said:
> ...



First ... I am not the decendant of an immigrant.  We did fight ... we lost ... were moved to reservations.  My family decided to assimilate ... although we do have a lot of criminals in our ancestory, most of us have been successful.

As for forcing Mexico to deal with their own people ..... how is it more of an American responsibility than a Mexican one?

And, for the record .... I did not mention Mexico in my post.  You made that assumption because that is where your focus is.  My focus is on all illegals who come here to escape their own miserable countries.....all of them....and a good portion of them are from South America not just Central America.


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## Madeline (Jun 11, 2010)

> syrenn wrote in part:
> 
> We already DO send mexico aid. We already do build factories their STEALING American jobs. Its call outsourcing. Tell me why should we establish a middle class in a foreign country when the middle class in THIS country is suffering?



syrenn, have you ever dialed a call center and had a Mexican answer?  I'm guessing no.  Those jobs went to India and other Asian or Caribbean nations, not to our neighbor.  One reason the middle class in _this_  country is suffering is because there is almost _no_  middle class in Mexico.  

Can you explain to me exactly how you think this isolationist policy you are promoting is going to work?  You seem to oppose punishing American employers with enough force to compel them to stop hiring illegals.  You seem to oppose any use of force in Mexico.  In short, you seem to be supporting the status quo, which has led us all to this miserable place.

How is more of the same going to change things for the better -- for any of us?


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## Madeline (Jun 11, 2010)

kurtsprincess said:


> Madeline said:
> 
> 
> > kurtsprincess said:
> ...



Well, my apologies for assuming that you are non-Native, kurtsprincess.  I did not deliberately mean to offend.

I am no Latin American political scientist -- I barely know what goes on in Mexico.  I have no idea how many illegals are here from other nations, but I'd guess most illegals are from Mexico.

I don't think straightening out Mexico is "more" an American responsiblity -- I just think we have a stake in wider social justice in Mexico that is almost as high as any Mexican's.


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## syrenn (Jun 11, 2010)

First off how about you answer up for some of your statements instead of a circle jerk or every changing premise questions. You continually say shit and then when called on it you conveniently just ask a new slurry of questions.  




Madeline said:


> syrenn, have you ever dialed a call center and had a Mexican answer?  I'm guessing no.  Those jobs went to India and other Asian or Caribbean nations, not to our neighbor.  One reason the middle class in _this_  country is suffering is because there is almost _no_  middle class in Mexico.



And do you have a problem with outsourcing jobs to countries _other_ then mexico. How about we stop outsourcing and keep the jobs in the US. Not all jobs that are outsourced are call centers. Ever hear of the automobile industry moving manufacturing jobs to mexico? 

Wrong. The middle class HERE is not suffering because of a lack of a middle class in mexico. What in the world does any of this have to do with

solving the immigration problem?




Madeline said:


> Can you explain to me exactly how you think this isolationist policy you are promoting is going to work?  You seem to oppose punishing American employers with enough force to compel them to stop hiring illegals.  You seem to oppose any use of force in Mexico.  In short, you seem to be supporting the status quo, which has led us all to this miserable place.



Who ever said ANYTHING about isolationism?  Where so i EVER say that employers here in the US should NOT be punished for hiring illegals? I want them jailed and fined into oblivion so that the mere thought of hiring an illegal will be the farthest thing from their minds.  Yes i oppose the US forcing mexico into anything, why should we? 

Where do you get the idea that i support any status quo? I am supporting stopping illegal immigration. What are you supporting?  




Madeline said:


> How is more of the same going to change things for the better -- for any of us?



 Right, lets try something different. Force the illegal back home. And get ofF of this mexican bullshit you have stuck in your head. FORCE ALL ILLEGALS BACK TO WHERE EVERY IT IS THEY CAME FROM! How about that for change?


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## Madeline (Jun 11, 2010)

Yes, I disapprove -- condemn -- outsourcing jobs to other nations.  It happened partially because we sat back while Republicans passed tax discount after tax discount to make the decision to move factories and other employment opportunities out of America and away from our minimum wage laws, etc.  It's despicable.

If Mexico had a growing middle class, its citizens would see opportunities in their homeland and would not emigrate here, legally or otherwise.

As for punishing US employers that hire illegals, I favor it -- violently.  I'm not sure what your position is.  Care to state it again?

I'm not "on a Mexican thing".   We HAVE a Mexican illegal immigration problem.  But yes, I favor deporting anyone who is here illegally -- and that includes anyone who has overstayed a visa.


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## syrenn (Jun 11, 2010)

Madeline said:


> Yes, I disapprove -- condemn -- outsourcing jobs to other nations.  It happened partially because we sat back while Republicans passed tax discount after tax discount to make the decision to move factories and other employment opportunities out of America and away from our minimum wage laws, etc.  It's despicable.



So again what does outsourcing have anything to do with solving the illegal immigration problem? As far as i am concerned outsourcing is a problem for America as we are the ones loosing jobs to other countries.



Madeline said:


> If Mexico had a growing middle class, its citizens would see opportunities in their homeland and would not emigrate here, legally or otherwise.



Why should we care about mexican middle class or building a mexican middle class. MEXICANS ARE NOT THE ONLY ILLEGALS ENTERING THIS COUNTRY! Get over the mexican thing. If we stop allowing mexican citizens into this country illegaly they MAY try and fix their own problems instead of becoming one our ours.



Madeline said:


> As for punishing US employers that hire illegals, I favor it -- violently.  I'm not sure what your position is.  Care to state it again?



Care to read my posts?



Madeline said:


> I'm not "on a Mexican thing".   We HAVE a Mexican illegal immigration problem.  But yes, I favor deporting anyone who is here illegally -- and that includes anyone who has overstayed a visa.



We have an illegal problem. Period. Stop harping on the mexicans. Stop harping on fixing mexico as a solution to illegal immigration. Fixing mexico is not our problem. Fixing America is our problem. The solutions to illegal immigration is stopping them entering and forcing the ones here out.


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## keee keee (Jun 12, 2010)

one word BOUNTIES. let the unemployed you know the ones outplaced because of these criminals. turn them in and get a reward. these people would be gone quickly, leaving tons of jobs which legal American unemployed could use!!!!!!


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## keee keee (Jun 12, 2010)

once they learned they are wanted they would flee like rats on a sinking ship!!!! Adios amego!!!! you remember how you got here just do the same but in reverse!!!! and don't let the gate hit you


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## Madeline (Jun 12, 2010)

> syrenn wrote in part:
> 
> The solutions to illegal immigration is stopping them entering and forcing the ones here out.



I see.  Your POV is that we take a hard line, export all illegals and somehow that will magically solve the problem.  Lemme ask you syrenn, if your neighbors are starving while you live high on the hog, will their desire to burgal you ever end?  Or will their efforts be ceaseless until they get fed?


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## syrenn (Jun 12, 2010)

Madeline said:


> > syrenn wrote in part:
> >
> > The solutions to illegal immigration is stopping them entering and forcing the ones here out.
> 
> ...



If my neighbors robed my home, if anyone tried to rob my home I generally shoot to kill. I don't care what their reasons are. If you want something ASK for it don't steal it as your "have not's rights"  If I choose to help my neighbor that is MY choice. 

Same goes for immigrants. ASK to come here legally.

Yes my POV is hard line. And YES that would solve the problem of illegal immigration. Why would it?


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## kurtsprincess (Jun 12, 2010)

Madeline said:


> kurtsprincess said:
> 
> 
> > Madeline said:
> ...



Apology accepted.

I am not a Latin America political science major either ... however, I've spent most of my life in and around Mexicans.  Have you ever worked with migrants Madeline?  I have ... most of my life because my family were migrant workers also.  My daughter is married to a Mexican, my grandchildren are half Mexican, her mother-in-law is a Mexican citizen...and she is one of the elites you talk about, but not because she was born into money ... it's because she came here legally, educated herself (dental hygenist) and met her husband (dentist), worked hard and made a fortune and now spends her time and money helping the people from her home village.  

They live in Arizona and feel America needs to enforce the current immigration laws and they know how dangerous Mexico is, but don't think it's America's problem to solve.


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## Madeline (Jun 12, 2010)

kurtsprincess, I do appreciate your family's bona fides.  I just don't happen to agree -- and I think I'm entitled to a POV even if I do not happen to have any hispanic background.

For all of you claiming "Mexico's problems are not the US's".....isn't that _precisely_  what they are now?


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## syrenn (Jun 12, 2010)

Madeline said:


> kurtsprincess, I do appreciate your family's bona fides.  I just don't happen to agree -- and I think I'm entitled to a POV even if I do not happen to have any hispanic background.
> 
> For all of you claiming "Mexico's problems are not the US's".....isn't that _precisely_  what they are now?



Mexico is not our problem. mexican's lifestyle is not our problem. Setting up mexico's social  system is not our problem. Making more jobs in mexico for mexicans is not our problem. Saving mexicans from mexicans in mexico is not our problem. What mexicans do in their own country, mexico, is not our problem. Redistributing mexican wealth is not our problem. 

Mexico is mexico's problem. Not ours.



In terms of the problme facing THIS country of illegal's entering and staying, mexican illegals are PART of the illegal immigration problem. 

NOTICE I say entering and not just crossing the border.


Get over the mexican thing.


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## Madeline (Jun 12, 2010)

syrenn, discussing illegal immigration without discussing Mexico or Mexicans is inane.  Can you please tell me why the subject is so taboo for you?


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## antagon (Jun 12, 2010)

i dont follow the logic that it is possible to improve the mexican economy in a timely or cost effective manner.  this is a fantasy for many , many reasons.  i dont think that there will be some value to the US or the issue of immigration in so doing, anyhow.  i dont think that it is prudent to deport all of the mexicans who are in the country illegally.

my solution is to charge illegals for visas: ~$5000 for a three year visa, which is renewable if they can show a tax returns for that period, no waiver for having american kids; your personal deduction is $5k less than an american.  all citizenships for those not born in the country should go for $20k aggregate tax liability or $20k cash.  if you are a negative liability type will you ever be a citizen? $35k for couples. over a million citizenships have been given away every year since the 90s. 

the $20 or so billion per year could help to enforce immigration status for those who have'nt paid their dues, and to support our debt-burdened public sector.

everyone's happy, i think, save for a handful of bigots and broke, lazy immigrants - parties which the US should relinquish the habit of satisfying at the cost of the rest of us.


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## syrenn (Jun 12, 2010)

Madeline said:


> syrenn, discussing illegal immigration without discussing Mexico or Mexicans is inane.  Can you please tell me why the subject is so taboo for you?




It is not taboo. Where have I not discussed mexico when ever you bring them up? Taboo would indicate that speaking of mexico is off the table.

Your stance that we need to* fix all of mexico* to stop the mexican illegal immigration problem is crazy. Mexicans are NOT the only illegals in the country. 

Your state your ideas and I state mine. That is called a debate. 

Again fixing mexico is not Americas problem. It is mexico's problem.


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## Angelhair (Jun 12, 2010)

_Mexico is not capable of fixing anything - much less the chaotic mess that country is in....but....it's still Mexico's problema!  They caused it; now they have to live with it._


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## blu (Jun 12, 2010)

solve it by fining immensely and stripping operating licenses any company caught hiring illegals whether on or off the books. once they have no jobs here they will sulk back across the border


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## Angelhair (Jun 12, 2010)

blu said:


> solve it by fining immensely and stripping operating licenses any company caught hiring illegals whether on or off the books. once they have no jobs here they will sulk back across the border



_No they will not!  They don't come to this country just looking for work - they know ALL the freebies that they can get here - don't kid yourselves!  What other country gives them free schooling, free medical, free food, free housing, etc????  Get a clue people, don't fall for the 'I come looking to feed my family', or 'looking for the american dream', or 'looking for a better job'....hogwash!_


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## Terral (Jun 12, 2010)

Hi Madeline:



Madeline said:


> *How Can We Solve The Illegal Immigration Problem?*


The answer has always been to 'enforce' our perfectly good immigration, employment and document fraud laws ... AT ... THE ... WORKPLACE. Unscrupulous American Employers are allowed to pick around American Workers in favor of cheap Illegal Alien Workers and everyone from Barry in the White House to the local Sheriff is looking the other way. Throw those 'hiring' the Illegal Aliens into jail and take away their business license FOR LIFE and the Illegals will find their own way back home. Too simple ...



Madeline said:


> Why do Mexicans leave their homes and come to the US?


Simple: Because they can ... and the impotent Dept Of Homeland Insecurity is looking the other way ...



Madeline said:


> Because they have no opportunity for a decent life where they live.  Crime is rampant.  Corruption is rampant ...


Yeah! And that is here in the USA!



Madeline said:


> No, we cannot absorb the illegals who are here now into our citizenry.  We need to deport them....but no matter how vigourously we enforce our immigration laws or secure our borders, we will never end the problem unless we take steps to change Mexico into a habitable place where people are content to remain.


We disagree! Again, if the corrupt U.S. Federal and State Governments will ENFORCE the '*Rule Of Law*,' then Illegal Aliens everywhere in the USA will find their own way back home where they 'are' citizens. We have hundreds and even thousands of Illegal Aliens using the same Social Security Numbers with addresses on their Employment Applications, but the so-called 'law enforcement officers' in this country cannot do the math!!!! Do not talk about the corruption south of the border, when the USA is the most corrupt country on earth! My God man! We have a Kenyan-born Foreign National squatting in the White House RIGHT NOW AS WE SPEAK!

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HLDHDfPNBME"]Michelle Obama: Barry's Home Country Is Kenya!!![/ame]




Madeline said:


> The problem is not insoluable.  Mexico has the highest GDP of any Latin American nation.  What does the US need to do to entice Mexicans to return home and stay there?


Again. Everyone from Barry in the White House to the local sheriff only need to ENFORCE our laws and those 'hiring' the Illegal Aliens will begin hiring real U.S. Workers that 'do' have legal working status.



Madeline said:


> What would YOU want from your home?  Safety.  Opportunity.



Most Americans are delusional when it comes to understanding typical Illegal Alien behavior. I have worked with hundreds of Illegal Aliens here in Florida:

1. Illegal Aliens come here to earn money to send back home.

2. Illegal Aliens game the system to maximize the amount of money they can send back home, while getting free health care and welfare if possible.

3. Illegal Aliens do not want to become U.S. Citizens, because then another Illegal Alien will come along and steal their identity and JOB.

4. Illegal Aliens take turns crossing the border to work in the USA illegally and oftentimes share fake identification cards. Therefore, the 20 Million Illegal Aliens here today are not particularly the same ones that were here a month or a year ago. 

5. The idea is to make as much money as possible to send back home, so that eventually you can build a house and live like a king.

6. Illegal Aliens know very well that they broke the law by simply coming here. They know that working here is illegal, but they care nothing about our laws and less about the American children having bread taken out of their mouths by all of this illegal activity. 

7. Illegal Aliens have more identification than the typical American Citizen. They boast about how they DUPED everyone involved to get their fake I.D.



Madeline said:


> We need to legalize drugs and end the stranglehold of drug crime,


Drugs 'are' legal already, which is the reason most kids get high from their parent's medicine cabinet ...



Madeline said:


> and we need to require the Mexican government to adopt social policies that entice illegals to go home.  These people need to see the chance of a better life in Mexico, not the US.



Mexico does not have our problem of Mexican Employers 'hiring' Illegal Aliens, because Mexican Immigration, Employment and Document Fraud Laws 'are' enforced to the full extent of the "*Rule Of Law*." We The Sheeple are DUPES cuckoo for allowing the Illegal Alien Invasion to continue here in the once-great USA ...

GL,

Terral


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## blu (Jun 12, 2010)

Angelhair said:


> blu said:
> 
> 
> > solve it by fining immensely and stripping operating licenses any company caught hiring illegals whether on or off the books. once they have no jobs here they will sulk back across the border
> ...



lets see... how many kids does the average mexican family have? how much actual $ would they get from welfare and other government programs? how quickly would they starve to death just using that money?


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## Madeline (Jun 12, 2010)

blu said:


> Angelhair said:
> 
> 
> > blu said:
> ...



Angelhair, unless a company operates in a regulated industry (e.g., operates a coal mine) it has no "operating license".  Most counties have ordinances requiring businesses to obtain and maintain a business permit, but the consequences for not doing so are mild, to say the least.

We need to throw US employers who hire illegals into prison and confiscate their businesses -- in other words, drive up the "risk" side of the risk/benefit analysis so they will STOP doing this.


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## blu (Jun 12, 2010)

Madeline said:


> blu said:
> 
> 
> > Angelhair said:
> ...



yep. and making an example of the first few will surely scare the rest. there also should be a task force that patrols construction sites and other large gathering of manual labor and ensures that all workers are legal


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## OneFlag (Jun 12, 2010)

I have no problem with legal immigration in good faith to become American citizens (I quote in part from T. Roosevelt) for it is an outrage to discriminate against any man based solely on race, creed, origin, etc. But that presumes that the immigrant that comes here assimilates himself with us and becomes not a hyphenated American but an American and nothing else. We have room but for one flag and that is the American flag. We have room but for one language and that is the English language and finally, we have room but for one loyalty and that is a loyalty to the American people.

When I see immigrants marching down our streets waiving the Mexican flag demanding citizenship, respect and all of the liberties that millions of our brave men and women have paid the ultimate sacrifice to ensure, it makes me wonder how any American can defend their actions. 

Only a war will solve the problem and that is quite improbable. The problem is too big to solve politically.


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## mudwhistle (Jun 12, 2010)

It's impossible to solve a problem when you have one side willing to solve it while the other side needs the problem around in order to survive.

Race-baiting is all it's about now.


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## ConHog (Jun 13, 2010)

Holy Jesus are people in this thread actually suggesting we have to "bail Mexico out" before we lock down our borders?

Fuck Mexico, I haven't fought in two wars and risked my life daily in order to pay taxes to support Mexico. If that were my goal, I would have joined the Mexican Army.


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## LuckyDan (Jun 13, 2010)

This POS thread keeps bobbing up. Why?

Fuck Mexico. Send their illegal exports back. 

What's all the disccussion?


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## ConHog (Jun 13, 2010)

LuckyDan said:


> This POS thread keeps bobbing up. Why?
> 
> Fuck Mexico. Send their illegal exports back.
> 
> What's all the disccussion?



The issue is the stupidity of that solution.

A) Do you realize how much it would cost to round them all up, detain them, try them, and deport them?

B) What do you propose to do with the ones who are US citizens due to being born here? Just say fuck you and your citizenship?


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## LuckyDan (Jun 13, 2010)

ConHog said:


> LuckyDan said:
> 
> 
> > This POS thread keeps bobbing up. Why?
> ...


 

A) No. 

B) Fuck em.


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## ConHog (Jun 13, 2010)

LuckyDan said:


> ConHog said:
> 
> 
> > LuckyDan said:
> ...



A) Guess you should educate yourself

B) Bet you don't say fuck them if someone tries to take YOUR US citizenship


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## LuckyDan (Jun 13, 2010)

ConHog said:


> LuckyDan said:
> 
> 
> > ConHog said:
> ...


 
Listen up, Cornhole.

a) I'll pay it.

b) Who the fuck is gonna leave their goddamn baby behind?


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## ConHog (Jun 13, 2010)

LuckyDan said:


> ConHog said:
> 
> 
> > LuckyDan said:
> ...



You'll personally finance the entire operation? Otherwise I don't think you alone get the call

B) Who said leave them behind simpleton? You're talking about kicking US citizens out of the US. Now even if you think the anchor baby law should be changed (and by the way I do) that doesn't change the fact that you can NOT just say "you're no longer a US Citizen and kick them out of the country. If you try to kick them out with their citizenship intact you WILL see lawsuits, and rightfully so. 

The solution is simple. Close the borders completely. Give every illegal 30 days to report to INS pay a very stiff fine for every person , get them on track for citizenship. Then make it a felony to not only be here illegibly, but to not have your papers on you. Also stop with the ridiculous it's racist to suspect Mexicans of being illegals. Showing your goddamn DL to prove your here legally is no fucking big deal. Further , make it a felony to employ an illegal punishable by jail time

Problem solved and no one is forced to lose their citizenship


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## LuckyDan (Jun 13, 2010)

ConHog said:


> LuckyDan said:
> 
> 
> > ConHog said:
> ...


 

I didn't read more than the first few lines of your post. But...

*Fuck illegals and the kids they give birth to here.*

Let the little darlings come home when they can take take care of themselves legally..


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## ConHog (Jun 13, 2010)

LuckyDan said:


> ConHog said:
> 
> 
> > LuckyDan said:
> ...



That's wonderful, and when someone comes to take YOUR rights as a US citizen do you expect us all to say fUck them, or do you expect us to protect your rights?


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## LuckyDan (Jun 13, 2010)

ConHog said:


> LuckyDan said:
> 
> 
> > ConHog said:
> ...


 
I ain't worried, Cornhole.

I got my papers right here. Wanna see?

Plus I'm white

So bite me, biatch.


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## ConHog (Jun 13, 2010)

LuckyDan said:


> ConHog said:
> 
> 
> > LuckyDan said:
> ...




That's great, but what if someone at some points says "you know what, fuck people with blue eyes?" or whatever.

Of course there's also the whole "being conservative doesn't mean you have to be a cold hearted fucking dick" thing to, but let's just stick with CON arguments here for simplicity since you're obviously a simpleton.

IF the USG can kick a US citizen out of the country for one reason they certainly can for any others.


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## tsalkonocii (Jun 13, 2010)

ConHog said:


> LuckyDan said:
> 
> 
> > This POS thread keeps bobbing up. Why?
> ...




More than the bullets to shoot them when they try top hop the fence in the first place...


> B) What do you propose to do with the ones who are US citizens due to being born here? Just say fuck you and your citizenship?



They're not citizens.

What 'Subject to the Jurisdiction Thereof' Really Means


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## LuckyDan (Jun 13, 2010)

ConHog said:


> LuckyDan said:
> 
> 
> > ConHog said:
> ...


 
Wow. Now I'm worried! I wasn't before, but ... 

You mean it's possible that "they" could one day come for "me"? And I'll have to shiow my "driver's license"?

HOLY FUCK! Well, that changes everything. Now I agree with you, Corndog.


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## ConHog (Jun 13, 2010)

tsalkonocii said:


> ConHog said:
> 
> 
> > LuckyDan said:
> ...



That IS a legitimate argument that could be made, except that it already has been ruled on


U.S. v. Wong Kim Ark, 169 U.S. 649 (1898)

In fact this case applies DIRECTLY here because the SCOTUS ruled that NO group could be singled out and excluded from the protections of the 14th.

Under the jurisdiction basically means everyone born here except children of visiting dignitaries, in other words if the Saudi Ambassador's wife has a kid here, he is not a citizen, for example.


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## ConHog (Jun 13, 2010)

LuckyDan said:


> ConHog said:
> 
> 
> > LuckyDan said:
> ...




No stupid, it means one day that they could decide you're no longer a US citizen.

It's exactly the reason that we, should, defend hardest the rights of those whom we most disagree with. For if today they can take away your right to free speech, tomorrow it might be mine. Just for example. 

Is that really too hard for you to understand?


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## LuckyDan (Jun 13, 2010)

ConHog said:


> tsalkonocii said:
> 
> 
> > ConHog said:
> ...


 
Thanks for clarifying the Saudi shit. I know I was worried about that.

But may I repeat my question: What Meixcan is gonna fucking leave thier fucking kid here!?


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## ConHog (Jun 13, 2010)

LuckyDan said:


> ConHog said:
> 
> 
> > tsalkonocii said:
> ...



Probably none which means you are FORCING parents to choose to take US CItizens out of the US. That's stupid and patently illegal.  

I ask again, how would you feel if someone said dude you're  no longer welcome in your country of birth?


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## LuckyDan (Jun 13, 2010)

ConHog said:


> LuckyDan said:
> 
> 
> > ConHog said:
> ...


 
I don't like to be rude. Truly.

Look at your question. Who's gonna ask that? Who's gonna answer?

If we we were talking about the country of birth, THERE WOULD BE NO FUCKING PROBLEM! ! ! !


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## ConHog (Jun 13, 2010)

LuckyDan said:


> ConHog said:
> 
> 
> > LuckyDan said:
> ...



What do you mean who's going to ask? You don't think that if you start rounding up the Mexicans they are going to protest you kicking their US citizen children out with them?


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## LuckyDan (Jun 13, 2010)

ConHog said:


> LuckyDan said:
> 
> 
> > ConHog said:
> ...


 
Let them bitch and piss all they fucking want.

Do they want their chilldren or don't they?


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## ConHog (Jun 13, 2010)

LuckyDan said:


> ConHog said:
> 
> 
> > LuckyDan said:
> ...




Exactly which means you are making them remove the children from the country they were born in. So I ask again, what if someone passed through legislation which put your citizenship at risk?

Also there is a specific rule about applying a law to people who were not doing anything illegal before the law was passed. So even if a law were passed , you couldn't go apply it to any children who are already US citizens.


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## LuckyDan (Jun 13, 2010)

ConHog said:


> LuckyDan said:
> 
> 
> > ConHog said:
> ...


 
I am telling them to go the fuck home and take their kid with them. Why do you not get that? When Jose grows up and can look after himself, he can come home.

If you won't address that fact, I'm tired of foolin' with ya.


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## syrenn (Jun 13, 2010)

LuckyDan said:


> ConHog said:
> 
> 
> > LuckyDan said:
> ...




 You are both missing one option. They may leave the anchor baby here. It is the choice of the parent to leave the child or take it with them. No one is yanking the citizenship of the anchor baby, nor saying that it many not come back, but the parents must go. No one is forcing citizens to go. 

If illegals KNOW that having an anchor baby is NOT a guarantee of staying in this country  my guess is they would have less anchor babies. If illegal mothers knew they were going to be instantly deported upon birth of a child (choice of leaving the baby in this country or taking it with them back home)  my guess they would be having less anchor babies.

No one is forcing anyone to do anything. It was the illegals choice to have a child. It will be the illegals *choice* of what to do with that child, no force required. Take it with her or leave it behind is the mothers choice, but she must go either way. And if you can catch the father he goes too!


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## LuckyDan (Jun 13, 2010)

syrenn said:


> LuckyDan said:
> 
> 
> > ConHog said:
> ...


 
I didn't miss the option of leaving Jose here. I am asking what father worth his nutsack is gonna leave the kid here while he and Mama go back to Juarez?

I'll be goddammned if I'm gonna let a foster family rasie _my_ kid. Where's that Latino machismo all the fuckin sudden?


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## nraforlife (Jun 13, 2010)

LuckyDan said:


> ................I didn't miss the option of leaving Jose here. I am asking what father worth his nutsack is gonna leave the kid here while he and Mama go back to Juarez?
> 
> I'll be goddammned if I'm gonna let a foster family rasie _my_ kid. Where's that Latino machismo all the fuckin sudden?



well then they take the kid back south. Problem solved. Their choice. They just aren't going to be allowed to use shiting a kid as a pass to stay in the USA.


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## Angelhair (Jun 13, 2010)

ConHog said:


> LuckyDan said:
> 
> 
> > ConHog said:
> ...



_Illegal parents are given a choice whether to take their U.S. born children with them or leave them behind with a relative or someone else.  If they don't have a relative, then immigration finds a foster home for them.  The parents are deported - end of argument._


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## ConHog (Jun 13, 2010)

syrenn said:


> LuckyDan said:
> 
> 
> > ConHog said:
> ...



and I will ask again, What if someone gave YOUR US citizen child those options. Ok Johnny you can go to Mexico with mommy or you can stay here and have a foster mom... Of course based on what I know of your parenting style, your child would actually be better off with a foster parent, but still I thought you didn't want the state forcing parenting decisions on people?


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## Madeline (Jun 13, 2010)

ConHog said:


> Holy Jesus are people in this thread actually suggesting we have to "bail Mexico out" before we lock down our borders?
> 
> Fuck Mexico, I haven't fought in two wars and risked my life daily in order to pay taxes to support Mexico. If that were my goal, I would have joined the Mexican Army.



No, ConHog.  What I am suggesting is that the borders will never really be secure until Mexico has a place for its own poor to be safe and see opportunities.  There's no reason to delay action to make the US secure by whatever means possible -- but a _part_  of that security will come from not having a neighbor nation going down in flames.

Mexico does not need a "bail out".  It has adequate resources.  What it needs is an end to drug-related crime and corruption, and a re-distribution of wealth out towards a new middle class.


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## tsalkonocii (Jun 13, 2010)

ConHog said:


> tsalkonocii said:
> 
> 
> > ConHog said:
> ...


they said the opposite when it was the indians before that, meaning that the ruling you cite is unconstitutional per scotus' earlier rulings


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## tsalkonocii (Jun 13, 2010)

So people here legally (dignitaries) can't drop their kids off, but criminals can?


That make a lot of sense...


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## antagon (Jun 13, 2010)

tsalkonocii said:


> they said the opposite when it was the indians before that, meaning that the ruling you cite is unconstitutional per scotus' earlier rulings



 this is not how that works, kid.


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## tsalkonocii (Jun 13, 2010)

antagon said:


> tsalkonocii said:
> 
> 
> > they said the opposite when it was the indians before that, meaning that the ruling you cite is unconstitutional per scotus' earlier rulings
> ...


silly me, here I thought things like 'precedent' and what the court already said the law meant were supposed to mean something and outweigh political maneuverings


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## Samson (Jun 13, 2010)

xsited1 said:


> Madeline said:
> 
> 
> > How Can We Solve The Illegal Immigration Problem?
> ...



Heinz 57 Steak Sauce is where you got the idea, right?


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## Samson (Jun 13, 2010)

LuckyDan said:


> ConHog said:
> 
> 
> > LuckyDan said:
> ...




I bet you secretly like being a little rude.


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## syrenn (Jun 13, 2010)

ConHog said:


> and I will ask again, What if someone gave YOUR US citizen child those options. Ok Johnny you can go to Mexico with mommy or you can stay here and have a foster mom... Of course based on what I know of your parenting style, your child would actually be better off with a foster parent, but still I thought you didn't want the state forcing parenting decisions on people?




I am a US citizen so the question would never be posed. However again the state is not telling her what to do. The state is deporting HER. She can take or leave her child. Her choice her decision, but either way she goes.


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## syrenn (Jun 13, 2010)

ConHog said:


> Holy Jesus are people in this thread actually suggesting we have to "bail Mexico out" before we lock down our borders?
> 
> Fuck Mexico, I haven't fought in two wars and risked my life daily in order to pay taxes to support Mexico. If that were my goal, I would have joined the Mexican Army.



That is exactly what Madeline is suggesting.


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## antagon (Jun 13, 2010)

tsalkonocii said:


> antagon said:
> 
> 
> > tsalkonocii said:
> ...



U.S. v. Wong Kim Ark was a supreme court case, buddy.  nothing holds precedent over that save the constitution itself.  nothing about a precedent makes a decision unconstitutional, either.  a higher court will have to strike it down under appeal, however, the supreme court has no such superior. for this reason, the supreme court has overturned its own precedents, most famously in brown v. board of education.

class is dismissed.


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## ConHog (Jun 13, 2010)

tsalkonocii said:


> So people here legally (dignitaries) can't drop their kids off, but criminals can?
> 
> 
> That make a lot of sense...



Because it's about JURISDICTION. If an illegal get's arrested in this country the justice dep't aka the government has jurisdiction over them, not so with a foreign dignitary.


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## ConHog (Jun 13, 2010)

syrenn said:


> ConHog said:
> 
> 
> > Holy Jesus are people in this thread actually suggesting we have to "bail Mexico out" before we lock down our borders?
> ...



I know it is, and I welcome her to join the Federales, My oath is to the CON of the USA, unfortunately , in my view, that includes the ruling that the 14th Amendment makes such kids citizens. I will fight for their rights just as I would fight for yours.  No one has the right to summarily deport a US citizen. If that were not the case I would be rounding up quite a few dumb asses and shipping them over seas.


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## Madeline (Jun 14, 2010)

As appealing as it is, dismissing the thought of aiding Mexico on the basis that is logically implies leaving the borders open is wrong and I did not suggest it.  What I suggested instead was that we do BOTH.


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## ConHog (Jun 14, 2010)

Madeline said:


> As appealing as it is, dismissing the thought of aiding Mexico on the basis that is logically implies leaving the borders open is wrong and I did not suggest it.  What I suggested instead was that we do BOTH.



Why do we have to be the world's captain save a ho? You do realize the rest of the world hates us right? Why should we continue to pay to fix a world that hates us? It's illogical.

Drugs? Close our borders and lets Mexico worry about their own.


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## syrenn (Jun 14, 2010)

Madeline said:


> As appealing as it is, dismissing the thought of aiding Mexico on the basis that is logically implies leaving the borders open is wrong and I did not suggest it.  What I suggested instead was that we do BOTH.



It is rather simple

Close the border
Let mexico fix mexico
Let the US fix the US


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## tsalkonocii (Jun 14, 2010)

antagon said:


> U.S. v. Wong Kim Ark was a supreme court case, buddy.  nothing holds precedent over that save the constitution itself.




Not even other SCOTUS rulings?



> nothing about a precedent makes a decision unconstitutional, either.  a higher court will have to strike it down under appeal, however, the supreme court has no such superior. for this reason, the supreme court has overturned its own precedents, most famously in brown v. board of education.
> 
> class is dismissed.



In other words, SCOUTS just makes it up as it goes along and is nothing more than a political tool that cares only about serving the ends of its members and doesn't give a damn about what the Constitution really says


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## tsalkonocii (Jun 14, 2010)

ConHog said:


> tsalkonocii said:
> 
> 
> > So people here legally (dignitaries) can't drop their kids off, but criminals can?
> ...


there is more to jurisdiction than criminal jurisdiction

What 'Subject to the Jurisdiction Thereof' Really Means


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## antagon (Jun 14, 2010)

tsalkonocii said:


> antagon said:
> 
> 
> > U.S. v. Wong Kim Ark was a supreme court case, buddy.  nothing holds precedent over that save the constitution itself.
> ...



the supreme court seems to try to dodge making and even moreso breaking precedent.  a lower court should avoid breaking precedent entirely.  it could be argued that the supreme court is a political machine, but if you've ever read a decision, they are quite well considered.  can you substantiate the conclusion that the SCOTUS doesn't give a damn about the constitution from an analysis of one of their opinions?  is your opinion based on the same understanding you had when you felt that precedent was a constitutional barrier?


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## Bullfighter (Jun 14, 2010)

Start treating Mexico like the enemy that it is!


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## Madeline (Jun 14, 2010)

What do you propose Bullfighter?  There were Japanese survivors even after we nuked Hiroshima and Nagasaki.


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## Angelhair (Jun 14, 2010)

Madeline said:


> blu said:
> 
> 
> > Angelhair said:
> ...



_Do any of you realize the problems that stem from these illegals coming into the USA???  The ONLY solution is to keep them out!!!  Why do the american people have to sacrifice and pay for anything to do with the illegals???  For pete's sake people, they are here without permission and yet we bend over backwards to appease them and make them comfortable even to the point of sending decent citizens to jail for the mess that was not of their own choosing or making.  Somehow throwing employers into prison for hiring people who lie just does not make sense!!!  The ones in WA are the ones who should be thrown into prison for not enforcing immigration laws and forcing more laws that just make no sense at all!!!_


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## Madeline (Jun 14, 2010)

Sorry Angelhair, but you are wrong and I think you know it.  Most US employers know perfectly well the workers are illegal -- that is precisely why they feel safe from workplace safety laws and don't bother to pay minimum wage.

The US profits from illegals and any discussion of sealing the borders and deporting those who are here needs to admit and address the guilt every last one of us has for the problem.

Including YOU.


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## Angelhair (Jun 14, 2010)

Madeline said:


> Yes, I disapprove -- condemn -- outsourcing jobs to other nations.  It happened partially because we sat back while Republicans passed tax discount after tax discount to make the decision to move factories and other employment opportunities out of America and away from our minimum wage laws, etc.  It's despicable.
> 
> If Mexico had a growing middle class, its citizens would see opportunities in their homeland and would not emigrate here, legally or otherwise.
> 
> ...



_Can't blame the repubs for everything that goes wrong in this country - dems are as much to blame.

Mexico has a growing middle class.   What it does not have is opportunities and do not know, or care, how to go about giving their people such.

Punishing employers is not the answer as it's not fair when they don't have the time or money to weed out those who lie, cheat, and steal to get a job - keeping illegals out is._


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## Madeline (Jun 14, 2010)

Maybe you are right, Angelhair.  The reading I have done leads me to conclude that Mexico's elite has been confiscating property and has all but decimated its middle class.  Care to share some linked articles?

Economy of Mexico - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## ConHog (Jun 14, 2010)

antagon said:


> tsalkonocii said:
> 
> 
> > antagon said:
> ...



No he can't. It's the same old tired argument anyone makes when we get a SCOTUS ruling someone doesn't like. "They're making law instead of just interpreting the CON" well duh interpreting the CON is obviously going to shape US policy and laws. At THIS point the CON reads that anchor babies are citizens , if SCOTUS issues a different ruling on the subject then is that unconstitutional ? I say no since the SOTUS was designed in fact to decide what is and what isn't constitutional.


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## antagon (Jun 14, 2010)

ConHog said:


> At THIS point the CON reads that anchor babies are citizens , if SCOTUS issues a different ruling on the subject then is that unconstitutional ? I say no since the SOTUS was designed in fact to decide what is and what isn't constitutional.



i dont think that this would come to a constitutional interpretation, but rather an act of congress or an amendment to the 14th, and some time down the line.  mass immigration is too dear a policy for US lawmakers to act to constrain it.  the most we could expect at present is an action to bring it above board for the sake of fiscal (and political) aims.

i'm partial for fee-based visas and citizenships for non-US born, and don't feel that having kids should exempt anyone.


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## Samson (Jun 14, 2010)

antagon said:


> ConHog said:
> 
> 
> > At THIS point the CON reads that anchor babies are citizens , if SCOTUS issues a different ruling on the subject then is that unconstitutional ? I say no since the SOTUS was designed in fact to decide what is and what isn't constitutional.
> ...



"Mass immigration is too dear a policy?"

Someone should inform Haitians and Cubans.


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## Angelhair (Jun 14, 2010)

Madeline said:


> Maybe you are right, Angelhair.  The reading I have done leads me to conclude that Mexico's elite has been confiscating property and has all but decimated its middle class.  Care to share some linked articles?
> 
> Economy of Mexico - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



*A New Kind of Illegal Alien - Mexico's Middle Class and Financial Elite*
Submitted by Robert Oak on Mon, 03/23/2009  

Look who is border hopping now. It's not your typical cheap labor, literally referred to as cargo by illegal employers and smugglers, *but instead Mexico's middle class and well to do are taking that desert stroll:*

As a drug war rages throughout Mexico and along its northern border, an increasing number of Mexicans are crossing into the United States to flee the killings, extortion and kidnappings that have plagued places like Juárez and Tijuana.

The escalating war near America's southern border is driving embattled Mexicans to seek safety in the United States. What if the tide of violence follows them?

Unlike the traditional job-seeking migrants, whose numbers have dropped in part due to the slumping US economy and increased border enforcement, this new migrant class comprises business owners, executives and other professionals who choose safety in the United States--even if it means detention--over freedom in their own country.

The drug war, which has claimed nearly 10,000 lives in a little more than two years-- more than 1,600 in Juárez in the last year alone--is a central component. But where most of those gruesome killings--including beheadings and mutilated bodies dumped in mass graves--involve criminals killing other criminals, rivals' family members or police, a dark, secondary shadow of lawlessness is enveloping innocent men, women and children who are fleeing for their lives. 

Yet of course our lovely special interest agenda groups keep any real action from happening on the ever growing horror story of terrorist drug cartels South of the Border. Doesn't seem to matter that these very thugs operate in over 230 cities in the United States.

So, now Mexico is no longer just exporting it's excess unskilled labor, literally they are exporting their citizens who would be key players in turning Mexico's economy around....due to stark raving fear and running for their very lives. 

A New Kind of Illegal Alien - Mexico's Middle Class and Financial Elite | The Economic Populist


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## Angelhair (Jun 14, 2010)

Madeline said:


> Maybe you are right, Angelhair.  The reading I have done leads me to conclude that Mexico's elite has been confiscating property and has all but decimated its middle class.  Care to share some linked articles?
> 
> Economy of Mexico - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



Mexico's Middle Class in the Neoliberal Era

*Mexicos modern middle class emerged in the decades after World War II, a period of spectacular economic growth and social change.* Though little studied, the middle class now accounts for one in five Gilberts book offers a smart approach to the correlation between social class and recent political-economic issues that are becoming ever more important in Mexico. 

Mexican households. *This path-breaking book explores the changing fortunes and political transformation of the middle class, especially during the last two decades, as Mexico has adopted new, market-oriented economic policies and has abandoned one-party rule. *Blending the personal narratives of middle-class Mexicans with analyses of national surveys of households and voters, Dennis Gilbert traces the development of the middle class since the 1940s. He describes how middle-class Mexicans were affected by the economic upheavals of the 1980s and 1990s and examines their shifting relations with the ruling Partido Revolucionario Institucional (PRI). Long faithful to the PRI, the middle class gradually grew disenchanted. Gilbert examines middle-class reactions to the 1968 Tlatelolco massacre, the 1982 debt crisis, the governments feeble response to the 1985 Mexico City earthquake, and its brazen manipulation of the vote count in the 1988 presidential election. Drawing on detailed interviews with Mexican families, he describes the effects of the 199495 peso crisis on middle-class households and their economic and political responses to it. His analysis of exit poll data from the 2000 elections shows that the lopsided middle-class vote in favor of opposition candidate Vicente Fox played a critical role in the election that drove the PRI from power after seven decades. The book closes with an epilogue on the middle class and the July 2006 presidential elections. 


Mexico's Middle Class in the Neoliberal Era


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## syrenn (Jun 14, 2010)

Madeline said:


> Maybe you are right, Angelhair.  The reading I have done leads me to conclude that Mexico's elite has been confiscating property and has all but decimated its middle class.  Care to share some linked articles?
> 
> Economy of Mexico - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia




Again what the mexicans do in their own country is mexicos problem. We have no say what their eliet do or dont do. If the mexicans are upset about it how about they do something to change it. 

mexico is mexicans problem


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## Samson (Jun 14, 2010)

syrenn said:


> Madeline said:
> 
> 
> > Maybe you are right, Angelhair.  The reading I have done leads me to conclude that Mexico's elite has been confiscating property and has all but decimated its middle class.  Care to share some linked articles?
> ...



The Gringos are the cause of Mexico's Problems.

First, they misspell "Elite"

Then they don't use apostrophes.


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## Madeline (Jun 14, 2010)

Angelhair, how can you write or quote what you have, and still disavow any US obligation or need to assist Mexico?


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## Angelhair (Jun 14, 2010)

syrenn said:


> Madeline said:
> 
> 
> > Maybe you are right, Angelhair.  The reading I have done leads me to conclude that Mexico's elite has been confiscating property and has all but decimated its middle class.  Care to share some linked articles?
> ...



_This is true syrenn - Mexico has to solve their own problems - as it is, they have always been very sensitive when the USA tries to interfere - of course, they always accept the Billions this country sends them.  The majority of their elite now reside in the USA and of course make sure to have more babies while here. _


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## Angelhair (Jun 14, 2010)

Madeline said:


> Angelhair, how can you write or quote what you have, and still disavow any US obligation or need to assist Mexico?



_The United States for years has been trying to help Mexico - but Mexico resents such interference - as I said, they ONLY want our dollars!  It is NOT the obligation of the USA to assist Mexico in the first place!  Mexico has created its own problems; it's up to them to solve them.  If they want the help of the USA, besides the dollars, they will ask for it, of that you can be sure.  Mayor Guiliani was asked by businessmen in Mexico to go down there as a consultant - it did not do any good as the corruption runs deep._

_Read:_
'Members of the Giuliani team said they quickly discovered they were up against some serious challenges unlike what they faced in New York. Starting salary for Mexico City police officers is $6,000, compared to $34,000 in New York City. *Most residents do not trust the police, who are infamous for extortion and taking bribes known as mordidas, or nibbles. Only an estimated 10% of crimes are reported.* And the local police, a preventive force, is only able to investigate crimes when they are in the process of occurring. If a resident comes in to report a crime from 10 minutes ago, the police cannot do anything.

Giuliani Partners executives say that they may have been a victim of inflated, perhaps even unrealistically high, expectations. "Certainly when you talk to so many people in Mexico City who were either victims of crime themselves, or know people who were victims of crime, and they were tired of being victims, there was an expectation that things could change immediately," said a vice president of Giuliani Partners, Maureen Casey. *"But certainly none of us, including the mayor, have the authority or the ability to do an immediate turnaround."*
"We were down there, I would say, two weeks a month for almost a year, and essentially what we did was to study each aspect of the police department in Mexico City," Ms. Casey said. "We really tried to do a balance of the academic research and also real hands-on learning, and I think that is what served us the best. Really getting out in the field, spending time on patrol, learning aspects of the criminal justice system."

_Read the full article.....AH_

In Mexico City, Few Cheers for Giuliani - April 11, 2005 - The New York Sun


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## Angelhair (Jun 14, 2010)

Samson said:


> syrenn said:
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> > Madeline said:
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_It's that typical mentality that the 'gringos' are always the cause for the problems in Mexico - thus the reason they are in such a chaotic mess and always will be as long as they keep pointing the finger of blame at their neighbor to 'el norte'.  It's the way to keep from accepting responsibility for their own corruption and mistakes which have been in the making for years and years....and of course their favorite passtime - keep blaming the 'evil' U.S. of A._


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## manu1959 (Jun 14, 2010)

Madeline said:


> > syrenn wrote in part:
> >
> > Good grief woman, why should WE have to change our lives to deal with mexican illegals? Why is it unrealistic to have them exist on our doorstep? We know why they will go to any length to come here, its free.
> 
> ...



or you could have a foreign worker visa program and have them pay taxes ....


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## Againsheila (Jun 14, 2010)

Madeline said:


> Why do Mexicans leave their homes and come to the US?  Because they have no opportunity for a decent life where they live.  Crime is rampant.  Corruption is rampant.  Unbearable poverty is inescapable there.  The US, as it always has, promises so much more that breaking the law to get here is worth it -- and for many, it has been a tradition.
> 
> No, we cannot absorb the illegals who are here now into our citizenry.  We need to deport them....but no matter how vigourously we enforce our immigration laws or secure our borders, we will never end the problem unless we take steps to change Mexico into a habitable place where people are content to remain.
> 
> ...



Bulcrap....Elvira had a college education, bought property and was building her own home when she decided she could come here and make MORE money.  She immediately had a child out of wedlock, diagnosed with an illness so she could collect ssi on him.  You want to stop them, NO WELFARE.  NO citizenship to children born to illegals.  A oneway ticket home to every illegal caught.  A $1000 fine and 2 years in jail to everyone caught hiring an illegal and that's PER illegal they hire.  

It would end in no time.


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## antagon (Jun 14, 2010)

Samson said:


> antagon said:
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you think mexicans flood over the border by accident, samson?  or the irish, italians, chinese, poles, and africans before them?  you can add the hatians and cubans if you like.  have you been to miami, buddy?  do you think they were kidding with the 'send us your poor' inscription?  immigration, no, _mass immigration_ is a fundamental US policy.  you simply cant avoid it when studying our history.  not true of any other country save for british and french copy-cats within the last decade or two, while our tradition is centuries old.

this is plain as day.  someone should inform some americans.


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## Angelhair (Jun 14, 2010)

'We have to look beyond our own borders and see what our selfish, stupid War on Drugs has done to the nations of Latin America. Those drugs are grown and brought here for US use...then let's legalize them, tax them and get the criminals out of the drug trade.'

_Mexico as well as ALL latin american countries have a big drug problem! You have bought into the Hillary Clinton propaganda.  Tell me, if those drugs were NOT grown in those countries, would there me any drugs for americans, as well as many others, to consume??? What came first - the drugs or the drug users?  The United States is not responsible for the world problems.  NO violins from this section._


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## syrenn (Jun 15, 2010)

Madeline said:


> Angelhair, how can you write or quote what you have, and still disavow any US obligation or need to assist Mexico?



Your joking right? Do you really want me to quote you?


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## ConHog (Jun 15, 2010)

I see no reason at all for us to involve ourselves in Mexico's problems in order to be able to address our own. Isn't this exactly the sort of thing some of yall griped about BOOSH for, nation building I mean?


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## antagon (Jun 15, 2010)

bush; nation _building_?


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## American Horse (Jun 15, 2010)

Againsheila said:


> <SNIP>
> ... She immediately had a child out of wedlock, diagnosed with an illness so she could collect ssi on him.  You want to stop them, NO WELFARE.  NO citizenship to children born to illegals.  A oneway ticket home to every illegal caught.  A $1000 fine and 2 years in jail to everyone caught hiring an illegal and that's PER illegal they hire.
> 
> It would end in no time.



We are a compassionate people, and those who want to legitimize that "compassion" extra-legally have up to now controlled the national dialogue by making any sort of strict policy seem to be lacking in our innate compassion for the underdog.  Up to recently those  have dominated the political debate have done so because they've controlled the language immigration has been discussed in in the MSM and in politics.

Our compassion extends evem to employers who would violate our own laws by hiring illegals.  A $1,000 fine as you suggest is reasonable.  And if passed it should be enforced, which has not always been the case.

But it should be enforced not just for every instance but for every day the violation persists.  Once an employer is found with illegals in his workforce it is an easy thing to monitor a continuing violation.  If an ellegal previously cited is found to have been transferred to another place by the employer, double the fine to $2,000 per day of continuance.  

But when a prison term of 3-years is added to the penalty, the likelihood of its being enforced at all drops to nil. Unfortunately it will actually or I should say will "only" be in cases in which someone is singled out because of a case of political or bureaucratic revenge. It would be a political weapon, Chicago styile. An extreme penalty has a way of being a political weapon, when it is not simply ignored.

I outlined in my earlier post (HERE)  a realistic and workable plan that would discourage new immigrants by limiting their access to employment opportunities, and for those who do work, provide an INCENTIVE to cause  them to return to Mexico.  

The residual problem is that of the dependent wives and children who are here and who do not work.  A part of any plan should be to pass legislation eliminating anchor babies.  But if you read my post, once the undocumented worker becomes documented, is required at all times while in the workplace requred to wear an unforgeable/untamperable ID badge, then all dependents could also be documented in the same way with the ongoing documentation. 

Right now, more than ever before, a vast majority of the American people wants prompt and effective action/policy on illegal immigration, but they are still a compassionate people, and want the policy to be fair. Without a perception of fairness it is not going to happen.  Much less than any sort of a majority want these people rounded up and deported.

It is entirely proper, compassionate, and economical to continue to build the fence eastward so that our whole border is protected.  This  extends to equal justice to all the residents along the border which is not the case with the state of Arizona, which is forced to take the brunt of the immigration and the drug trade.


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## Angelhair (Jun 15, 2010)

American Horse said:


> Againsheila said:
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_Compassionate? Or just plain STUPID!  These people laugh at us.......and some all the way to the bank!_


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## Againsheila (Jun 15, 2010)

American Horse said:


> Againsheila said:
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How is it fair to grant legality to people who broke into our country?  How is that fair to every legal immigrant in our nation?  How is that fair to those who've been denied entry to this country and didn't force their way in?  Fairness means sending home every single illegal immigrant and making them get in line like everyone else.  

Fairness is taking care of our own before taking care of someone else's.  My son's caregiver's hours were just cut.  Do I have less work?  No, the state has less money but the illegals are still here and still collecting money on their children born here.  Heck some are even collection money on kids not born here.  And because of them, I have to make do with less?  How is that fair?  I lived in Mexico in college and I paid my own way.  I didn't collect welfare, I didn't get a job, they wouldn't let me.  Heck even American prisoners in Mexico get money from home to pay for their incarceration in Mexico.  How is that fair?

How is the trash they leave in the desert that we end up paying to clean up fair?

How is it not fair to put those responsible for them being here in jail?


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## ConHog (Jun 15, 2010)

Againsheila said:


> American Horse said:
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> > Againsheila said:
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Fair =/= logical. We all know that. Is it fair that they came here illegaly? No of course not, but they are here so the only thing we can do now is decide what is logical, practical, and best for our nation. So let's examine the issue.

1) we do not have nearly enough INS agents to begin rounding up 12M people. We would probably have to expand 10X.

2) Our courtrooms are already over crowded, so when would they be given a trial, unless of course you propose we just chuck them over the border without so much as a trial to determine if they are legal residents or not?

3) What about children who are currently US citizens, are you going to tell them too bad your choices are A) go back to a country you don't even know and certainly don't belong to or B) live without your parents?

4) What about the huge expense involved with physically transporting these people back to Mexico?

5) In some cases entire industries would go under if their labor force were removed. Believe it or not some Americans would be affected by this

6) Do you I wonder realize that illegal aliens pay in an estimated $5B a year in various taxes? You just want to lose that revenue?

Wouldn't it be simpler and more logical to shut down the border and work towards getting those who are now on track to becoming legal?


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## Againsheila (Jun 15, 2010)

ConHog said:


> Againsheila said:
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> > American Horse said:
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Logical?  We've granted amnesty several times in the past and all it's done in increase illegal immigration.  Do you know what they call someone that keeps doing the same thing and expecting different results?


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## ConHog (Jun 15, 2010)

Againsheila said:


> ConHog said:
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Except that this WOULDN'T be the same thing at all, because I, and most others, are actually calling for shutting the borders down completely first. By shutting down completely, I absolutely mean manning the border with armed military members with orders to shoot to kill anyone that tries to cross illegally.


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## Againsheila (Jun 15, 2010)

ConHog said:


> Againsheila said:
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Every single amnesty promised to protect our borders from NEW illegals.  EVERY SINGLE ONE.


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## Angelhair (Jun 15, 2010)

Againsheila said:


> ConHog said:
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> > Againsheila said:
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_Which just proves the point that the USA is not interested in stopping the flow - but - it is still not a reason for the american people to stop trying to get the message to the WH that 'we won't take it anymore'!!!!  AZ listened - now let's see if we can get more states to do the same._


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