# PoliticalChic's Review of "Waiting for Superman"



## PoliticalChic (Nov 1, 2010)

I was four minutes late I hurriedly entered the dark, practically empty theater in a state of quiet joy of finally having arrived to watch this much talked-about, and long-awaited movie.  After all being interested in ideas about education, how could I be au fait without having seen this documentary?

In the opening scenes, the soothing voice of director, Davis Guggenheim lures us into this documentary.   He talks while he drives past three crumbling public schools in Los Angeles on their way to his own childrens expensive private school.  Im lucky  I have a choice, Guggenheims says, but then asks a very important question: What is our responsibility to other peoples children?

Thoughts of John Dos Passos crossed my mind while I watched Guggenheim weave a poignant story by telling of the lives of five families entrenched in the problematic public schools interspersed with footage of Michelle Rhees rise to stardom and subsequent fall, interviews with Randi Weingarten (president of AFT), and other leading figures in the field of public education, including Gregory Canada (president and CEO of the Harlems Childrens Zone), Dr. Howard Fuller (director of the Institute of the Transformation of Learning at Marquette University and former Milwaukee Schools superintendent), and even billionaire and philanthropist, Bill Gates who recently has taken an ardent interest in the plight of public education.

Prominently noted is the dismal fact that U.S. students are number 25 and 21 in math and science, respectively among 30 developed nations but number one in self-esteem!
And, as one would expect, the epidemic of ineffective, incompetent teachers and the strangle-hold the teachers union has on the public education process (i.e., inability to get rid of bad teachers, tenure)

I had a sense of deep despair, in fact, hopelessness -- that children from lower-income families would be sentenced to failing schools and fall prey to the statistic that a child that doesnt finish high school will earn less and will be eight times more likely to go to prison.  One of the most disturbing images shown was a video secretly taken by a high school student showing a teacher reading a newspaper with his feet up on his desk while students play craps in the back of the room.  The principal later said that there was nothing he could do about this teacher who simply didnt care

And while the images of the film suggest a lot of dead ends, a glimmer of hope peeks through with the success of many charter schools.  The charter schools have put to rest the common meme, that the achievement gap between the rich and poor could never be bridged.  The tools of the charter school success include: lengthening school days; school on Saturday; giving children and parents access to teachers (via phone contact, direct e-mails, and conferences.)  

The movie reaches a crescendo when each of the five mainly minority families are sitting in the auditorium of five different cities (Bronx, Washington D.C., Los Angeles, Harlem, and Silicon Valley), nervously await the fate of their children.  The parents faces are anxiety-ridden and the children mirror their parents moods.  Fate may very well decide if their children will have a successful life or possibly a very different one.  And because Ive gotten to know the children and the families, I was on the edge of my seat rooting that fate will smile upon them.  

Later when I went home, rethinking the movie, I did become a bit hopeful when I thought back to the time of where civil rights emerged as a movement.  Blacks and whites together became tired and angry at being shackled by the chains of Jim Crow.  Perhaps parents, educators, politicians, and interested citizens will realize that the teachers union while having made positive contributions, have now become too powerful a behemoth, benefiting the teachers and neglecting the interests of the children.  Go take a friend and watch this movie even if you have no interest in education.  It is eye-opening and riveting.


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## random3434 (Nov 1, 2010)

> And, as one would expect, the epidemic of ineffective, incompetent teachers and the strangle-hold the teacher&#8217;s union has on the public education process (i.e., inability to get rid of bad teachers, tenure)
> 
> I had a sense of deep despair, in fact, hopelessness -- that children from lower-income families would be sentenced to failing schools and fall prey to the statistic that &#8220;a child that doesn&#8217;t finish high school will earn less and will be eight times more likely to go to prison.&#8221; One of the most disturbing images shown was a video secretly taken by a high school student showing a teacher reading a newspaper with his feet up on his desk while students play craps in the back of the room. The principal later said that there was nothing he could do about this teacher who simply didn&#8217;t care&#8230;




Yep, they need to find a way to get rid of these teachers that just don't care, or are not effective at their job. There is a teacher in my building who has no business teaching, yet the 'hoops' they have to go through to get rid of her..........I weep for  her students and the things they aren't learning,,,,but should be...........


Did they mention that education  is also too "Top Heavy" in the Admin. departments, and getting rid of some of that baggage could free up funds for the students.


Thanks for your review PC, I enjoyed reading it!


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## iamwhatiseem (Nov 1, 2010)

Well...maybe we need to spend more money.
Oops..wait..we did that...we better spend even more money...crap we did that too.
It's almost like we need to hold teachers accountable like everyone else has to in the private sector...but that would be bad for unions.

What can we do??


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## Baruch Menachem (Nov 1, 2010)

This is the real sources of the outsourcing problem.  You can't find enough educated americans to fill the jobs.


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## CrusaderFrank (Nov 22, 2010)

PoliticalChic said:


> I was four minutes late I hurriedly entered the dark, practically empty theater in a state of quiet joy of finally having arrived to watch this much talked-about, and long-awaited movie.  After all being interested in ideas about education, how could I be au fait without having seen this documentary?
> 
> In the opening scenes, the soothing voice of director, Davis Guggenheim lures us into this documentary.   He talks while he drives past three crumbling public schools in Los Angeles on their way to his own childrens expensive private school.  Im lucky  I have a choice, Guggenheims says, but then asks a very important question: What is our responsibility to other peoples children?
> 
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Thank you for that!


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## Dr.Traveler (Nov 23, 2010)

I'll rent it when it comes out.

I know back in the late 90s when I was thinking about going into high school education I saw a lot of these same problems you're mentioning when I visited the Indianapolis area schools.  I recall heading to one school where the teacher had clearly lost control of the room.  He was dutifully teaching at the front, while the kids in back were playing cards.  The truly sad thing is a student sitting right next to me was so desperate to learn he leaned over and asked me, the visitor, how to do the math involved.  I taught him how, and I'm worried that was the last time he learned anything in that class.

The visitiations also included interacting with the Teacher's union and the school board.  Following that class, I made a decision not to teach at the high school level.  The problems, even then, were just too big for me.  I went on to get my Ph'D and now teach at the college level.

There were success stories though.  The charter schools I visited were outstanding, and some of the suburban schools were just amazing.


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## Samson (Nov 23, 2010)

Dr.Traveler said:


> I'll rent it when it comes out.
> 
> I know back in the late 90s when I was thinking about going into high school education I saw a lot of these same problems you're mentioning when I visited the Indianapolis area schools.  I recall heading to one school where the teacher had clearly lost control of the room.  He was dutifully teaching at the front, while the kids in back were playing cards.  The truly sad thing is a student sitting right next to me was so desperate to learn he leaned over and asked me, the visitor, how to do the math involved.  I taught him how, and I'm worried that was the last time he learned anything in that class.
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Actually, I like teaching very much, and oddly, my favorite group is economically disadvantaged minorities aged 13-14. Why?

First and foremost is that most have not been hardened against "the system" which they see as mostly adversarial at best. Yes, I know this isn't really true, but it is what they hear at home  from parents and other family members. They can still be "turned" to believe they will succeed.

Second is they want to have fun. I'm not sure why, but caucasians seem to have some huge burden of guilt about being either too poor or too rich to have fun. Their idea of fun is often making you, and others around them, miserable. If a teacher can tap into the desire to have something, their students can learn anything.

Third is that the parents, while you don't see them much, will often be very supportive. In fact, I learned the hard way that you need to be very careful with them because they will often _overreact to support the teacher_; a virtually unheard of phenomena among caucasian parents.

Forth: Administrators of schools with large minority populations don't really sweat the small stuff. They have very little time to administer rectal exams to teachers to ensure all the "i's" are dotted and "t's" are crossed.


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## Dr.Traveler (Nov 23, 2010)

Samson said:


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I can see that.  One of the schools I visited was a middle school.  The school itself was obviously run down and underfunded, but the teachers were working magic with what they had.  One of the teachers told our little group that middle school age kids are tough to teach due to the energy, but if you could point it in the right direction.... BOOM!

The experience I shared was in a VERY large highschool on the South Side.


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## Missourian (Nov 23, 2010)

Dr.Traveler said:


> I'll rent it when it comes out.
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> I know back in the late 90s when I was thinking about going into high school education I saw a lot of these same problems you're mentioning when I visited the Indianapolis area schools.
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Why does it seem like it's the urban schools are failing while suburban and rural schools are succeeding?


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## hedi01 (Dec 5, 2010)

How the animation process works, with plenty of footage from Disney classics to illustrate why they were the best and most inovative.


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## MaggieMae (Dec 6, 2010)

PoliticalChic said:


> I was four minutes late I hurriedly entered the dark, practically empty theater in a state of quiet joy of finally having arrived to watch this much talked-about, and long-awaited movie.  After all being interested in ideas about education, how could I be au fait without having seen this documentary?
> 
> In the opening scenes, the soothing voice of director, Davis Guggenheim lures us into this documentary.   He talks while he drives past three crumbling public schools in Los Angeles on their way to his own childrens expensive private school.  Im lucky  I have a choice, Guggenheims says, but then asks a very important question: What is our responsibility to other peoples children?
> 
> ...



Very good analysis, although not having seen it yet, I fully expected you would disagree with what MY anticipation would reveal. Happily, it's about the same. Good job, PC. It appears you at least are willing to put education above politics, as we all should.


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## MaggieMae (Dec 6, 2010)

Echo Zulu said:


> > And, as one would expect, the epidemic of ineffective, incompetent teachers and the strangle-hold the teachers union has on the public education process (i.e., inability to get rid of bad teachers, tenure)
> >
> > I had a sense of deep despair, in fact, hopelessness -- that children from lower-income families would be sentenced to failing schools and fall prey to the statistic that a child that doesnt finish high school will earn less and will be eight times more likely to go to prison. One of the most disturbing images shown was a video secretly taken by a high school student showing a teacher reading a newspaper with his feet up on his desk while students play craps in the back of the room. The principal later said that there was nothing he could do about this teacher who simply didnt care
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> ...



One of the administration problems is the voluminous reporting required by the governments (both federal and state). I once knew a woman who worked in the "office" at my high school who, _30 years ago_, complained that just filling out the forms took nearly 75% of her time, leaving little time to actually "administer" what she was required to do by the same forms! I suspect it's gotten even worse by now.


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## hortysir (Dec 6, 2010)

How appropriate that, with an avatar such as hers, that PoliticalChic, would see this film??


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## MaggieMae (Dec 6, 2010)

Dr.Traveler said:


> I'll rent it when it comes out.
> 
> I know back in the late 90s when I was thinking about going into high school education I saw a lot of these same problems you're mentioning when I visited the Indianapolis area schools.  I recall heading to one school where the teacher had clearly lost control of the room.  He was dutifully teaching at the front, while the kids in back were playing cards.  The truly sad thing is a student sitting right next to me was so desperate to learn he leaned over and asked me, the visitor, how to do the math involved.  I taught him how, and I'm worried that was the last time he learned anything in that class.
> 
> ...



Loss of classroom control is almost always the result of too many students per teacher. It's a common problem, especially in larger metropolitican schools.


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## Samson (Dec 6, 2010)

Baruch Menachem said:


> This is the real sources of the outsourcing problem.  You can't find enough educated americans to fill the jobs.



heh...

Including Teaching Jobs.


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## Samson (Dec 6, 2010)

MaggieMae said:


> Loss of classroom control is almost always the result of too many students per teacher. It's a common problem, especially in larger metropolitican schools.



Um, no.

Class Size Around the World - NYTimes.com








> Note that some of the countries with some of the worlds highest achieving student bodies  like Korea and Japan  *have the biggest class sizes*.


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## MaggieMae (Dec 7, 2010)

Samson said:


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I said in "metropolitan" areas. Perhaps I should have been more specific, i.e., inner city public schools.

Facebook's Mark Zuckerberg to give $100m to Newark's crumbling schools | Richard Adams | World news | guardian.co.uk


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## jillian (Dec 7, 2010)

Baruch Menachem said:


> This is the real sources of the outsourcing problem.  You can't find enough educated americans to fill the jobs.



maybe that's because 70% of americans don't believe in evolution?


no...seriously.. it's because corporations want their workers to work for substandard wages and they get tax breaks for moving things offshore.

it isn't rocket science.


now back to the review... interesting reading, CG.


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## midcan5 (Dec 7, 2010)

One piece of a complex problem that reflects the values of American society and not the bad teacher is below. 

If bad teachers were the problem, the answers would be obvious, but in 16 years or however long you have gone to school, you have lots of good teachers and lots of time not to be dumb. So it would seem if one wants to draw easy conclusions (as PC and other assorted wingnuts do), Americans are just dumb and need to face it. You wingnuts are raising dumb kids, mine/ours aren't, so it must be you guys. The acorn doesn't fall far from the....  


Evidence: Education | The Equality Trust

'Children do better at school in more equal societies.'

"Everybody agrees that education is important and that education benefits societies as well as individuals. People with more education earn more, pay more taxes, are more productive, and happier. Well educated people contribute more to society; they're also more likely to volunteer and to vote. Although good school systems make a difference, the biggest influence on educational attainment is family background, so disadvantaged children do less well at school and miss out on the benefits of education 

In an international analysis published in Lancet, and an analysis of the 50 US states published in Social Science and Medicine, we have shown that scores in maths and reading are related to inequality. In addition, the percentage of children dropping out of high school in each of the 50 states of the USA is, as the graph below shows, also linked to inequality."


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## Samson (Dec 7, 2010)

MaggieMae said:


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You think they omitted the metropolitan areas in Japan and Korea?


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## NYcarbineer (Dec 7, 2010)

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Do you think Japanese and Korean cultures are close enough in similarity to American culture that you can make meaningful and valid apples to apples comparisons?


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## NYcarbineer (Dec 7, 2010)

"Hey, I remember that movie.  I had Raisinets."


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## Samson (Dec 7, 2010)

jillian said:


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So, The US's poor ranking is a vast corporate conspiracy to under-educate americans so they won't be able to sew socks, answer my AMEX complaints, and take orders for rubber-vomit and other novelties?

Damn, and I wanted to take orders for Adult Novelties when I'm 70 years old and need to supplement my SSI.


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## NYcarbineer (Dec 7, 2010)

hortysir said:


> How appropriate that, with an avatar such as hers, that PoliticalChic, would see this film??



You do know the hot avatar rule don't you?


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## NYcarbineer (Dec 8, 2010)

NYcarbineer said:


> "Hey, I remember that movie.  I had Raisinets."



Dang, nobody here O L D enough to appreciate a killer Barney Miller reference.


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## Trajan (Dec 8, 2010)

NYcarbineer said:


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its a classroom....either the environment is conducive to learning or its not.


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## Trajan (Dec 8, 2010)

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how does this apply to waiting for superman?


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## Trajan (Dec 8, 2010)

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I didn't see it till now wojo.


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## midcan5 (Dec 8, 2010)

Friday we are having dinner with five teachers, I will ask them what they think of this film or idea.

Our son taught math in HS in a middle to upper middle class public school. He loved his bright students, his stupid students, which were the majority, caused a career change into respect and lots more money. It is America folks, not unions, not teachers, not all America but American culture. My wife has taught math for over twenty years. The rich do not go to these schools, ever wonder why? Has nothing to do with teachers, has lots to do with teacher pay and other perks money brings. Check out cost in private schools. And if unions disappeared this would be the same, probably worse in the poor areas. 

"Here's what you see in Waiting for Superman, the new documentary that celebrates the charter school movement while blaming teachers unions for much of what ails American education: working- and middle-class parents desperate to get their charming, healthy, well-behaved children into successful public charter schools.

*Here's what you don't see: the four out of five charters that are no better, on average, than traditional neighborhood public schools (and are sometimes much worse); charter school teachers, like those at the Green Dot schools in Los Angeles, who are unionized and like it that way; and noncharter neighborhood public schools, like PS 83 in East Harlem and the George Hall Elementary School in Mobile, Alabama, that are nationally recognized for successfully educating poor children.

You also don't learn that in the Finnish education system, much cited in the film as the best in the world, teachers are&#8212;gasp!&#8212;unionized and granted tenure, and families benefit from a cradle-to-grave social welfare system that includes universal daycare, preschool and healthcare, all of which are proven to help children achieve better results at school."* Grading 'Waiting for Superman' | The Nation


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## Trajan (Dec 8, 2010)

midcan5 said:


> Friday we are having dinner with five teachers, I will ask them what they think of this film or idea.
> 
> Our son taught math in HS in a middle to upper middle class public school. He loved his bright students, his stupid students, which were the majority, caused a career change into respect and lots more money. It is America folks, not unions, not teachers, not all America but American culture. My wife has taught math for over twenty years. The rich do not go to these schools, ever wonder why? Has nothing to do with teachers, has lots to do with teacher pay and other perks money brings. Check out cost in private schools. And if unions disappeared this would be the same, probably worse in the poor areas.
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to bad they  ( the nation and it sounds like those teachers) didn't see the movie , or if they did and thats all they got out of it, I wouldn't want my kids in their classroom.


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## Samson (Dec 8, 2010)

midcan5 said:


> Friday we are having dinner with five teachers, I will ask them what they think of this film or idea.
> 
> Our son taught math in HS in a middle to upper middle class public school. He loved his bright students, his stupid students, which were the majority, caused a career change into respect and lots more money. It is America folks, not unions, not teachers, not all America but American culture. My wife has taught math for over twenty years. The rich do not go to these schools, ever wonder why? Has nothing to do with teachers, has lots to do with teacher pay and other perks money brings. Check out cost in private schools. And if unions disappeared this would be the same, probably worse in the poor areas.
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I have had two experiences with charter schools, at what I imagine are opposite ends of the spectrum, in two different states. But this really is no surprise: There is NO "AMERICAN EDUCATION SYSTEM."

Therefore, it is absurd to compare a "Finnish Education System" to an "United States Educational System."

Most Americans who have never moved, believe that their local schools reflect the nation.

Nothing could be further from the truth.


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## NYcarbineer (Dec 8, 2010)

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For 2000 dollars,

Name that movie!


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## NYcarbineer (Dec 8, 2010)

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The manageability of a classroom can certainly be profoundly affected by the nature of the cultural upbringing of the children, as it relates to such things as discipline, attitude, desire to learn, etc., etc.

I'm suggesting that 35 Japanese kids might be as easily taught in a class as 25 American kids,  just because of cultural differences.


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## Samson (Dec 8, 2010)

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No, not at all (BTW let's add Israeli culture and German culture least we be labled "racists").

My point was, that culture, not merely class size, makes a different learning environment.


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## Trajan (Dec 8, 2010)

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so, why hasn't this paradigm ever been as obvious?


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## NYcarbineer (Dec 8, 2010)

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No, actually you just posted a list of class sizes in various countries with the implication being that Americans were off course to argue for smaller classes because countries like Japan and Korea have big classes.


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## Samson (Dec 8, 2010)

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Didn't I just explain my post without "implication?"

The statement was made that, "Loss of classroom control is almost always the result of too many students per teacher. It's a common problem, especially in larger metropolitican [sic] schools." 

This is clearly untrue in Japan, Korea, and Israel, all of which have large urban populations.

Do you have data to justify a contradictory POV?


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## Samson (Dec 8, 2010)

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"As obvious" as.........what?

The fact is that homogeneous cultures are much easier to manage (govern), in both a microcosim (classroom) and macrocosm (nation), than heterogeneous cultures: E.g. What language shall we speak in school? Do the Koreans, or Finns struggle to teach Vietnamese, Mexican, and Somalis in their own languages?

No.


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## MaggieMae (Dec 9, 2010)

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Why are you persisting with this argument? Japan and Korea are much more disciplined people *in general*. It therefore follows their instructors and students (and class rooms) will also be much more disciplined than can commonly be found today in typical unruly classrooms in the United States. This is a fucking nobrainer, and it does make me wonder if you are really a "teacher" at all, as you claim to be.


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## MaggieMae (Dec 9, 2010)

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Not having seen the movie yet, I don't know if there's any reference to student:teacher ratio or not. But suffice it to say, I've seen it a LOT, where classrooms are filled to overflowing with 30 or more students and one teacher trying to teach, say, math to a bunch of adolescents more interested in goofing off with each other. I'd like to see anyone here try to do it and control the class at the same time.


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## Trajan (Dec 9, 2010)

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as obvious by the yardsticks we apply now and defects we find ,that are the basis of any discussion when it comes to making comparisons using oecd etc. 

The performance of our students has degraded vis a vis others (OECD)  in the measured grps.  

Were the Orientals less disciplined decades ago? The Finns? 

How were the class sizes, here and there comparatively, ours were somewhat higher than the average today.


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## Trajan (Dec 9, 2010)

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they do it in parochial schools all the time.

and I am till curious why you find the zuckerman guilt award , to be meaningful?


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## MaggieMae (Dec 9, 2010)

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Maybe there's something in the rest of the article that would appeal to you. Teachers MUST BE paid on merit, and not tenure, that's a given. But teachers likewise should be PAID _the money _they deserve for the most under-appreciated job in the world. There was a time when a "teacher" was a parent-figure, respected as the adult in the room while attending classes. Back then, a dedicated teacher didn't care quite as much that his/her pay was less than could be made in another vocation because the results of the effort were worth it. But why should a young person going to college in order to get a teacher's degree be subjected to a base salary just above the poverty line to teach a bunch of rowdy kids who don't really want to be taught? That's why so many GOOD teachers leave the profession.


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## MaggieMae (Dec 9, 2010)

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You should have posted a graph showing just US schools, which would have resolved this issue. Trying to compare apples and oranges doesn't cut it because as YOU said, there *is* no uniform "American education system."


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## MaggieMae (Dec 9, 2010)

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The NJ school was just an example. But your point about parochial schools is right-on. Also, charter schools succeed on so many levels because their classroom sizes are generally smaller, even further making my point.


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## hortysir (Dec 9, 2010)

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Mooshy-Mooshy


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## Trajan (Dec 9, 2010)

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I have a deadline to fill, I'll be back,  but meanwhile MM,if you have not see it , give this a look Google an article on Tinker v. Des Moines ...theres one from the 50's I cannot think of right ow too, along the same lines ala student 'rights'.


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## Trajan (Dec 9, 2010)

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so size doesn't really matter..


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## MaggieMae (Dec 9, 2010)

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Huh? Of course it does. And your point about religious schools is correct. They have smaller classrooms, just as most charter schools, and therefore "control of the classroom" is much easier.


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## Samson (Dec 9, 2010)

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Speaking of no-brainer, I think you've finally got it: 

It is NOT the class size that makes a difference in successful learning enviromnoents (urban or otherwise), but instead differences between, "people in general" or, what educated individuals know as differences in culture.

Glad the light finally came on for your dim-bulb.


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## Samson (Dec 9, 2010)

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Source?

Parochial schools usually have LARGER classes.



> Catholicdiocesan schools tended to have relatively large class sizes. The average class size was 25 or more in 54 percent of Catholicdiocesan schools;



Geez you really haven't a fucking clue about this subject.


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## MaggieMae (Dec 10, 2010)

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Except that it would have been nice if you had made that opinion ALONG WITH the chart you posted. But failing that, it appeared to this *bright* bulb that you simply were eager to pick (another) fight with me.

You are so _petty_. I pity your students, if any.


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## Trajan (Dec 10, 2010)

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uhm no that wasn't my point parochial schools don't necessarily have smaller class they have DISCIPLINE among other values.


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## MaggieMae (Dec 10, 2010)

Samson said:


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Oh brother, 1993-1994??? How about pulling some current information? After all, you're a teacher, right?

National Catholic Educational Association
*U.S. Catholic Education Snapshot
2008-09 School Year*
Catholic Schools

Total Catholic school enrollment: 2,192,531
Elementary school enrollment:  1,568,016
Secondary school enrollment: 	624,515

Minority students: 643,173 	     29.3% 
Non-Catholic: 325,835	    	     14.9% 

Total number of schools: 		    7,248
Elementary schools: 		    6,028
Secondary schools: 			    1,220
Co-educational: 			     93.6%
Single sex male: 			     2.6%
Single sex female: 			     3.8%

New schools in 2009/9: 		        31
New schools in last 5 years: 	      184
Schools with waiting lists for admission: 
				(29.2%) 2,114

Full-time professional staff: 	157,615
Laity: 					     96.0%
Religious/clergy: 			      4.0%
*Student/teacher ratio: 		    14:1*

Average Tuition
Elementary:				 $3,159
Secondary:				 $8,182


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## Samson (Dec 10, 2010)

MaggieMae said:


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Sometimes you are so painfully naive its pitiful

Would you expect the NATIONAL CATHOLIC EDUCATION ASSOCIATION to advertise that their classroom size is LARGER?

The first clue is

the "Student to Teacher Ratio" is calculated 2,192,531 students/157,615 full time professional staff. I hate to burst your little bubble, but all full time professional staff at school are not teachers.

I think I'll stick with my objective source, sweetie: Now run along and play


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## Samson (Dec 10, 2010)

Trajan said:


> MaggieMae said:
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Exactly.

Poor Maggie, despite the point a top her head, even the simplest concepts seem to go over it: Class size it irrelevant if you have disciplined students. 

Obviously, Maggie has never attended one of the many colleges where HUNDREDS of Freshman are in one room.


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## Samson (Dec 10, 2010)

MaggieMae said:


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Oh stop whining.

I'll try to remember your inferiour intellect requires spoon feeding.


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## Trajan (Dec 10, 2010)

MaggieMae said:


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samson is correct imho...I happen to have a personal aside, yes personal but I think fairly representative from what I gathered,  that speaks to such when I thought about enrolling my daughter in Archbishop Mitty, Valley Christan among others here in san jose....they include athletic coaches/managers, their administrative staff for instance. 

They said 15-20, when I actually saw working _classrooms_ I counted 25 desks on average, asking about  this apparent conflict, they said they "generally" run a little high semester to semester or lower depending on current enrollments. Which is just a clever way of not admitting  yes they average over 20...


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## Trajan (Dec 10, 2010)

I&#8217;d like to say one thing on classroom behavior as a subset of cultural means. 

I think that at thr risk of stereotyping yes, Asian schools by and large may exhibit day to less, uhm, activity in that the children may be more docile or obedient, however in the context of learning I don&#8217;t see this as a good thing necessarily, American classrooms are probably more voluble but this assists the creative aspect of learning while less interaction does not stir those creative or free out of the box thinking technique. 

 America is a place where in the cross cultures move up the mean as they  engage more in this atmosphere  , which I think is seen empirically as it assist in crating a more entrepreneurial  and creative student there after how achieves along these lines. 

I probably said this clumsily but I hope my point got across.


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## MaggieMae (Dec 10, 2010)

Samson said:


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Indeed I have, but by the time you reach college, most WANT to learn. If they don't, they are free to skip the class. Duh...


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## MaggieMae (Dec 10, 2010)

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It's okay to just admit your mistakes and move on, you know.  In the meantime, I suggest you Google "*decline in enrollment in Catholic schools*" and take your time reading the myriad articles since you now think the Catholic Education Association makes up stuff. But I really do need to run along now, so I'll let you play in THAT sandbox for awhile.


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## MaggieMae (Dec 10, 2010)

Samson said:


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You're the one who won't stop chasing me around the board, you freak. Can't stand to lose, eh? Yeah, I've known your kind all my life, and I can shake you off like water. Your ego matters more than a decent discussion. Pathetic.


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## PoliticalChic (Dec 10, 2010)

Trajan said:


> Id like to say one thing on classroom behavior as a subset of cultural means.
> 
> I think that at thr risk of stereotyping yes, Asian schools by and large may exhibit day to less, uhm, activity in that the children may be more docile or obedient, however in the context of learning I dont see this as a good thing necessarily, American classrooms are probably more voluble but this assists the creative aspect of learning while less interaction does not stir those creative or free out of the box thinking technique.
> 
> ...



"...however in the context of learning I dont see this as a good thing necessarily, American classrooms are probably more voluble but this assists the creative aspect of learning while less interaction does not stir those creative or free out of the box thinking technique."

Have you purchased any Japanese electronic products lately?


It's time to stop  making excuses for what goes on in our classrooms.


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## Samson (Dec 10, 2010)

MaggieMae said:


> It's okay to just admit your mistakes and move on, you know.  In the meantime, I suggest you Google "*decline in enrollment in Catholic schools*" and take your time reading the myriad articles since you now think the Catholic Education Association makes up stuff. But I really do need to run along now, so I'll let you play in THAT sandbox for awhile.



I suppose I'll interpret whatever point you're sadly attempting to make to camouflage your lastest monumental error in judgement:


You're saying that since 2000, the kids have stopped going to Catholic schools, but, for some mysterious reason the teachers are all still there.


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## Trajan (Dec 10, 2010)

PoliticalChic said:


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Oh agreed,but in the early years while we had a handle on the classrooms Asian cos were copying and building on ideas we created. to an extent that still happens today, but the edge has dissipated and this goes for 'soviet' schools as well, school systems that were less open to the activity I mentioned and didn't encourage that type of individual creative aspect unless marked for special treatment.


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## MaggieMae (Dec 10, 2010)

Samson said:


> MaggieMae said:
> 
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> > It's okay to just admit your mistakes and move on, you know.  In the meantime, I suggest you Google "*decline in enrollment in Catholic schools*" and take your time reading the myriad articles since you now think the Catholic Education Association makes up stuff. But I really do need to run along now, so I'll let you play in THAT sandbox for awhile.
> ...



Another misspelling.  Sorry, teach.


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## Samson (Dec 10, 2010)

MaggieMae said:


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That's all you got left?

You''l make a good secretary for someone after you grow up.


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## midcan5 (Dec 12, 2010)

Follow up to this comment.

http://www.usmessageboard.com/educa...ew-of-waiting-for-superman-2.html#post3065163


It is funny talking to teachers who teach and compare their reality with the BS the right wing posts.  One math teacher had things rather nice and admitted it, he only had one non AP class and a few of his students were heading to MIT and Harvard so he was happy. He did complain about parents. Another retired recently and noted that a primary reason was no backing from parents, and constant annoyance about their little Joanie. Another mentioned Christie's cutbacks in NJ which only hurt teaching and education but not administration etc. It seems parents are the overall nuisance for teachers as they want good grades but no work. Sports come first for many children and parents, followed by electronic games and texting. Most thought teaching thankless in our society. 

America gets the students it wants because that is what they ask for and support. Teaching is looked down on and dumb is considered hip and cool. 


"It is almost impossible to talk about the manner in which public ignorance contributes to grave national problems without being labeled an "elitist," one of the most powerful pejoratives that can be applied to anyone aspiring to high office. Instead, our politicians repeatedly assure Americans that they are just "folks," a patronizing term that you will search for in vain in important presidential speeches before 1980. (Just imagine: "We here highly resolve that these dead shall not have died in vain . . . and that government of the folks, by the folks, for the folks, shall not perish from the earth.") Such exaltations of ordinariness are among the distinguishing traits of anti-intellectualism in any era. " Susan Jacoby  The Dumbing Of America - washingtonpost.com


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## midcan5 (Jun 4, 2013)

But many of us knew it was BS, only the corporate puppets of the right sing in tune to the greed song. Two things operate here and both are money, but I'll let the reader figure the distinction. 

'New data shows school reformers are full of it' 

"Poor schools underperform largely because of economic forces, not because teachers have it too easy"
"Reality, though, is finally catching up with the reform movements propaganda. With poverty and inequality intensifying, a conversation about the real problem is finally starting to happen. And the more education reformers try to distract from it, the more they will expose the fact that they arent driven by concern for kids but by the ugliest kind of greed  the kind that feigns concerns for kids in order to pad the corporate bottom line." New data shows school ?reformers? are full of it - Salon.com

"For education, technology and charter school companies and the Wall Streeters who back them, it lets them cite troubled public schools to argue that the current public education system is flawed, and to then argue that education can be improved if taxpayer money is funneled away from the public school systems priorities (hiring teachers, training teachers, reducing class size, etc.) and into the private sector (replacing teachers with computers, replacing public schools with privately run charter schools, etc.). Likewise, for conservative politicians and activist-profiteers disproportionately bankrolled by these and other monied interests, the reform argument gives them a way to both talk about fixing education and to bash organized labor, all without having to mention an economic status quo that monied interests benefit from and thus do not want changed."


"The small Nordic country of Finland used to be known -- if it was known for anything at all -- as the home of Nokia, the mobile phone giant. But lately Finland has been attracting attention on global surveys of quality of life -- Newsweek ranked it number one last year -- and Finland's national education system has been receiving particular praise, because in recent years Finnish students have been turning in some of the highest test scores in the world." What Americans Keep Ignoring About Finland's School Success - Anu Partanen - The Atlantic

http://www.usmessageboard.com/educa...ew-of-waiting-for-superman-2.html#post3065163

http://www.usmessageboard.com/education/108215-education-then-and-now.html#post2073834
http://www.usmessageboard.com/education-and-history/108215-education-then-and-now-2.html#post2074607
http://www.usmessageboard.com/educa...liberals-in-the-classroom-11.html#post1749647
http://www.usmessageboard.com/education/159100-pay-teachers-more.html#post3418935


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## Old Rocks (Jun 4, 2013)

Samson said:


> midcan5 said:
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> > Friday we are having dinner with five teachers, I will ask them what they think of this film or idea.
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Exactly. My education, 1st grade to high school diploma, included 13, at least, schools in Washington and Oregon. The schools ranked from spectactular, a two room very rural school with a lady genius for a teacher, to abysmal, near Roseburg, Oregon. All were reflective of the community they were in. Where ignorance was admired, the schools were a pain. Where ambition and hard work and education were admired, they were a joy.

And, with the exception of Riverside, all were reflections of the parents attitudes far more than that of the teachers. Parents are the key to a childs education. Where they are supportive, the kids have a chance. As you pointed out, many of the parents that are in poverty see education as a way out for their children, and support a good teacher far more than those in comfortable circumstances.


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