# A Debate On Pain Medication Delivery



## HUGGY (Mar 2, 2014)

Something that has drawn My attention over the last several years... maybe a decade or more is a personal observation that more and more people are living with crippling pain and less and less is being done about it by the mecical community.

1.  It is true that about twenty years ago more or less there were many cases of pain killer overdoses reported.  At the time doctors were prescribing pills such as Oxycondon, Percocets and Morphine Sulphate and others somewhat loosely so the availability could be considered a factor in many of the deaths where pain killer was present.

I believe some of those cases were intentional suicides not reported as such.

I believe some of these cases were ruled "accidental" when a person not perscribed took the pills and died.  I don't believe that when someone ..even if a teenager takes a handfull of pills stolen from a medicine cabinet or their mom's purse *that it is an accident*.  It is *NOT an accident*. It is foolish behavior.  Foolish behavior can be lethal.

I believe many of the deaths reported as overdose and unneccesary over-prescription was just fools and *thieves* dying from foolish behavior.

2. Recently the companies producing pain medication and the DEA have been systematically reducing the availability of pain medication to anyone by threatening doctors with their liscence to practice and in the case of the biggest manufacture of pain medication in the U S A getting on some weird conscience kick and attempting to find ways to reduce deaths by holding back manufacture of the pain medicine. 

The DEA has a new and recently superfunded division just for the purpose of taking pain killer out of the hands of the public with NO regard for what many Americans go through from chronic pain.

3.  Some of our largest universities specializing in medicine have bought into the myth that it is better the public wrack in chronic pain than a single person die from a drug overdose. 

4.  It is apparent from knowing several people directly and indirectly with life threatening disease such as cancer or AIDS that that group has no problem getting pain relief even if the "end" may be not in the near future.  People who are going to die certainly within X months or years are treated with at least some modicom of compassion.   If you are not going to die in a predictable fashion you are on your own with no pity or medication to make your pain bearable. 

No one seems to be fighting back at the DEA and the preasure they put on the medical community to make it possible for people with genuine chronic pain to seek some relief with medicine. 

I am going to start with this much and ask for comment.


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## CaféAuLait (Mar 2, 2014)

Awhile back my wrist was broken, so much so I needed steel plates and pins inserted and several surgeries. I soon developing a nerve disorder called Reflex Sympathetic Dystrophy or CRPS. The afflicted area becomes red, swollen and painful to the touch, almost as if you are on fire. 

Something as simple as a light breeze or a sheet can cause pain which can take your breath away and knock you to your knees for hours or days on end. Soon after, I developed something rare in RSD called mirror image spread. My non-injured hand became affected by RSD as well. My hands and wrists were so swollen you could not see my nails due to extreme swelling. I could not feed myself a naso-gastric tube was ordered and used to sustain me for some time. 

I had more surgery, one to implant a pain pump electrodes into my spine and others to alleviate the swelling by surgically cutting into the flingers to release build up swelling which affects the blood flow because of the nerves sending the wrong signal, to put it simply. After that surgery I developed MRSA and was left with large infected open wounds in my back on top of the RSD, the MRSA nearly killed me. 

The electrodes were explanted due to the infection and I was left with oral, and patch pain management. After many surgeries and physical therapy I am much better, however anything could set off another episode ( KNOCK ON WOOD) At this point I need nothing more than aspirin or Motrin to control any pain. Damndest thing, I have stretch marks  on my wrists and backs of my hands from the swelling which made my hands larger than grapefruit. 

The point of telling you this is here I learned about the complications about pain management. I could not drive and someone would have to pick up my scripts. There were several times the pharmacist questioned the reason I would need continual pain management and in fact rolled their eyes at the person picking up my meds. WTF?  My doctor was never an issue about prescribing meds, however I met many with RSD who were under treated and or sent to pain management centers where they told me they had to sign contracts with their providers and the regime was so strict they had to travel back every few weeks for refills.  

Some told me their docs out and out told them they were afraid of prescribing because of investigations or gov orgs questioning them and then sent them to pain management clinics, to assure they would not become under fire. Basically putting the 'risk' with another doctor. 

The docs have to show cause for those cases which are long term or out of the ordinary. And it seems to me that because of a few bad apples, doctors are under more and more scrutiny by people that havent the slightest clue about many of the diseases out there. I can only hope that if RSD ever becomes an issue again I will have my same doctor or one not afraid to treat me in the correct manner. 

As for where you speak of fighting the DEA, some people I spoke to were accused of being pill seekers and that was the only reason they were fighting. I can't imagine the crap they must have gone through and I know if the same had happened to me I would be livid!


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## HUGGY (Mar 2, 2014)

Cafe'AuLait" thank you for your testimony.

I have been thinking about this for a long while...this recent purging of pain killer medication from those that need it most just to barely function.  It is the difference from not being able to get to sleep undre any condition or crawling gingerly accross the floor in agonizing pain if one dares leave their bed for such a tortuous venture at all.

I have a close friend that has degenerative nerve damage in both legs that is so crippling I'm certain a less strong human beilng would have commited suicide long ago from the torture she livews with.  Fortunately for her the damage was diagnosed as work related and the Workers Comp in Washington, after HUNDREDS of doctors and specialists do have enough clout to insist on serious and intensive pain management medication.  

They still attempt to perform costly experiments on my friend including the spinal probes that supposedly give electronic stimulation but which in fact to my knowlwdge of albiet two personally known cases do absolutely NOTHING.  They are fake science.  Somehow in the doctores running scared of doing what CLEARLY midigates pain these doctors fall victim to charlatans and pass the savings in the several thousands of dollars on to the patients, because the Workers Comp people already know that it is bunk and will not reimberse for the outreageously expensive gimick.

I fear for you chances of getting responsible pain management these days as the rules have changed under the stranglehold and fear mongering by the DEA.  They have gained a few feet and now they want the full mile..complete elimination of prescribed pain medication containing opiates or the synthisized opiates.

If I were you I would join myself and others to find an organization that is attempting to build a constituency with enough clout to address these problems to legislaters.  The only way the DEA wil back off kicking and screaming from thier diabolical mission is by force from THEIR bosses...our government leaders.  

Individually they will lable you criminals ..dope fiends and cry babies.  An association of like minded people must rise up against this medical prescrition tyranny before it is too late.


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## Jarlaxle (Mar 3, 2014)

The nerve stimulators DO work for some people.  My uncle's father has them due to nerve damage, and they helped a lot.  He went from barely able to walk to back ridding his motorcycle.  (Surgery is not feasible for him, mostly because he's about 90.)


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## editec (Mar 3, 2014)

I know people addicted to Oxi for pain.

They will never ever get off it unless we find some other way to deal with pain.

Meanwhile OXI is the number 1  abused drug in Maine.

STay away from dem opiates kiddies.

They're too damned good to mess with.


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## Grandma (Mar 3, 2014)

My hospital story:

I had a hysterectomy. Before I woke up I was hooked up to a morphine machine. When I did wake up I ordered it shut off and removed. I demanded ibuprofin instead. Ibuprofin relieves pain. Heroin Light changes the perception of pain. I made the right decision.

Some people are a little too fond of of the hard drugs. Start off with a Tylenol and work your way up, don't start off with Oxy's and think you'll only need them for a little while. You'll become a junkie. Junkies need them all the time.


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## Disir (Mar 3, 2014)

I agree that there was a knee jerk reaction to the ODs.  I think that people in chronic pain pay the price.  But the FDA passed another pain medication: 

Health Care Advocates Protest FDA Approval of 'Killer' Pain Reliever - ABC News


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## boedicca (Mar 3, 2014)

This problem has less to do with the front line of the medical community (doctors) and far more to do with federal government regulatory overreach.

And with the ACA causing severe limitations on formulary drug choices, expect it to get worse


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## auditor0007 (Mar 3, 2014)

HUGGY said:


> Something that has drawn My attention over the last several years... maybe a decade or more is a personal observation that more and more people are living with crippling pain and less and less is being done about it by the mecical community.
> 
> 1.  It is true that about twenty years ago more or less there were many cases of pain killer overdoses reported.  At the time doctors were prescribing pills such as Oxycondon, Percocets and Morphine Sulphate and others somewhat loosely so the availability could be considered a factor in many of the deaths where pain killer was present.
> 
> ...



My mother has chronic pain from many things.  She suffered a broken hip over ten years ago and she gets shingles at least four times per year.  She also has survived a heart attack and lung cancer, but her pain is constant.  She is on Vicodin, but the doctors have been trying to get her off of it.  She's 82 and just wants to live her life with the least amount of pain possible.  Now she is worried that they are trying to take her pain meds away, and Vicodin seems to be the only thing that really works.  She has tried other pain meds and none of them is as effective as Vicodin.  

Yes, we need to be aware of potential abuse, but some people really do need these pain meds.


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## HUGGY (Mar 3, 2014)

editec said:


> I know people addicted to Oxi for pain.
> 
> They will never ever get off it unless we find some other way to deal with pain.
> 
> ...



There are responsible ways a physician can prescribe and monitor pain medication.  A simple urine test can check levels of opiates in the system and suspected abusers can be required a blood test and if even further more long term abuse is suspected hair follical testing shows the pattern of absorbtion for 90 days.

Not all pain is the same.  There is no one formula that lables someone a "junkie".  I know cancer patients that take enough morphine sulfate each day that would kill an average person yet they do not stumble around acting intoxicated.

Because "some" abuse certain medications it should not be an excuse for a tortured existance for those that follow their doctors orders and submit to intensive testing for their own health and the safety of the doctor.

Making a joke calling this about "kiddies" just having a good time does a disservice to this serious topic.


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## oldfart (Mar 3, 2014)

Grandma said:


> My hospital story:
> 
> I had a hysterectomy. Before I woke up I was hooked up to a morphine machine. When I did wake up I ordered it shut off and removed. I demanded ibuprofin instead. Ibuprofin relieves pain. Heroin Light changes the perception of pain. I made the right decision.
> 
> Some people are a little too fond of of the hard drugs. Start off with a Tylenol and work your way up, don't start off with Oxy's and think you'll only need them for a little while. You'll become a junkie. Junkies need them all the time.



There are some situations where there is zero chance Tylenol is going to work.  I get your point, but in the middle of an acute gall bladder attack is not a good time to try Tylenol as a replacement for effective analgesics.  Due to a records screw up I had the dubious pleasure of twelve hours in a hospital in such a situation.  I have also had morphine post-surgery after a triple bypass and from two major abdominal surgeries.  In each case I was off morphine by the fourth day.  Frankly there are some things in post-surgery rehab that are not going to happen without effective analgesics.  

I'm glad things worked out well for you, and I certainly hope you never have an occasion where stronger pain relief is necessary.  But those situations exist whether you have experienced one or not.


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## HUGGY (Mar 3, 2014)

oldfart said:


> Grandma said:
> 
> 
> > My hospital story:
> ...



People with no malice scoff at others pain all the time. 

I am enroled in one of the most active patient pity parties of all time called "Healthboards".  The cronic pain forum has most of my interest.  You can only find it by searching "pain".  There are THOUSANDS of testimonies carefully locked away surviving under strict board rules that you may not post ANY advocasy in any form including suggesting that these people contact their elected reprsentative and give testimony what the government programs are doing to insure these people live in horrible crippling pain.

Astonishing.  I am getting the distinct impression that the administrators of this site believe this pain people are suffering is "gods will" and won't let anyone suggest that there be some other outcome would they only stand up and request it.

One of the more repetitive stories is how people hear from someone(female) close to them that is having monthly cramps that they "Know just how you feel".  

I am familiar with the doctors scale of pain 1-10 that is in fashion now-a-days.

I have suffered kidney stones and would rank it a strong 9.  We are talking pain so violent that projectile vomiting from the pain is normal.

Apparently many people that have never suffered serious CP would list their "cramps" a 9 when in reality "cramps" for a few hours would be a 2 on my scale.  They just do not know. It is high time they do.


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## Jarlaxle (Mar 3, 2014)

oldfart said:


> Grandma said:
> 
> 
> > My hospital story:
> ...



My wife flatly refuses to use mind-altering painkillers...she has had her knee 'scoped, sliced her forearm almost to the bone (17 stitches), and had two wisdom teeth out.  A few years ago, she collected a strained shoulder, badly-sprained ankle, and bruised ribs in a head-on wreck.  She cracked three ribs when a truck clipped her in a parking lot about ten years ago.  She didn't take anything stronger than what was basically high-test Advil for any of it (and even that was mostly to get the swelling down on her ankle).  When she gashed her arm, the only painkiller used was a local (a shot of Morrocaine, I think).

I'm the same way.  I have had two near-misses with getting hooked already...I will NOT be that lucky again.  I'd rather eat my shotgun.


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## RosieS (Mar 3, 2014)

My RA has gotten to the Lupus level.  I also had MRSA and pseudomonas in my legs. I was left with permanent nerve damage after the holes filled in.

The trick to not be coming hooked on pain pills is to stay below the maximum dose. Do not expect to be pain free, just expect for the edge to be taken off.

I have been on the same doses of my pain and nerve pills for more than 11,years. No change of dosage. I always have extra pills each month for fear of screw ups - and there have been- that leave me without an Rx for a month.

Florida will be voting on medical marijuana. If  It passes, I can drop the Lortab and use marijuana in its place.

The introduction of Zohydro will make drug abusers, rather than users, OD rather rapidly. Perhaps that is what Big Pharma wants?

The abuse of prescription pills starts when people start thinking that more than a small dosage would be ok. Others have less pain and sell their excess pills for profit - creating pill addicts. That is how Limbaugh got his pills on the street.

Stop the illegal dealing in pain pills- but you don't have to kill them with Zohydro to do that.

Regards from Rosie


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## HUGGY (Mar 3, 2014)

Jarlaxle said:


> oldfart said:
> 
> 
> > Grandma said:
> ...



There is a difference between injury and healing and cronic pain.  It is easy for me to know that looking forward from an injury I will heal and the pain will go away. 

I have pulled my own teeth out before rather than go to a dentist that will do the same thing.  It hurts sharpely for a few seconds then starts to feel better almost immediately.

If you have ever had kidney stones and the worst pain of that experience is somewhere else in your body like say one of your legs..24/7..you can't fall asleep because there is no position that will allow it.  THEN if you are too stupid to get some kind of help you WILL swallow your shotgun.  

Unless you have walked in someone elses shoes you have no right to say what they have endured.  

Your fear of addiction is YOUR fear.  When I had my ciatic nerve pinched in job related accident I thought after a month of the horrible pain that I might consider suicide.  Then I went to a couple of emergency rooms at hospitals and got morphine shots directly into the leg.  Some relief ..felt nauseous.  Directed to a doctor that prescribed oxycondon and codiene..no help..  eventuall I was swallowing handfulls of methadone.. It took away almost all of the pain.  Story short ..I laid on my stomack in the bottom of my 35 ft Chris Craft for another two months with ice packs on my spine .. I healed and when the pain was actually gone I kicked the massive dose of narcotics in three weeks.  Sure I was addicted but so what.  The ablility to sleep and stay still definitly aided in my recovery and healing.  So I DO know of forced addiction AND the further work of injury recovery to force one's self off that which saved his life.


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## HUGGY (Mar 3, 2014)

The purpose of this thread is to stimulate conversation on how the pain killing drug delivery system is or has worked for you and me and how we can expect it to work for us in the future.

It is about taking pain medication away from people that cannot live with the torture of their aliments. 

It has become an easy target for sociopathes in congress willng to step on or over any easy target to get powerfull.

It is astounding how little organized push back by those it affects directly exists.  I cannot understand why these people are not crying out.  Suffering quitly or committing suicide when there is hope and pain relief out there is nonsense and shocking frankly.

*This thread IS NOT a pissing contest *looking for stories about people that have endured some pain and recovered thanking the lord they NEVER took the evil pain killers.

Only sociopathes have no empathy for others.  If you are a sociopathe by that definition please take your comment elsewhere.

All others having interest in making the delivery system of pain relief for those with cronic pain please offer your testimony.

Thank You 

Sean Corey


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## gnarlylove (Mar 3, 2014)

Excellent discussion from my youthful vantage point (as a 26 yr old semi-professional philosopher and ex-homeless heroin addict). Opiates are way powerful and seductive threatening whole nations. It doesn't take much to look back on the Opium Wars and see what opiates can do to a people.

I grew up and currently live in hillbilly heroin alley, in Appalachia. It has devastated our community and continues to more and more. It exceeds our tiny capacity as a poor community to address these issues. I am part of a suboxone clinic that has aided in my transformation back into the stable life but it is costly--too costly. Having known all the stories and angles from the nurse who is known as the best worker stealing pills of patients who refuse them to the permanently homeless crack and heroin addicts among whom I have lived extensively.

This is indeed a national issue having traveled all over and acquired opiates in any city I visited within hours. Most narrow minded folks blame people for their "drug problems" but this approach is invalid (as usual). The addicted population must simply be understood before anything effective can be implemented. Stereotypes and ignorance abounds. We are a long way from achieving that and the longer we don't, the more addiction takes neighbors and friends by the hundreds and perhaps thousands each day in the USA. Addicts are people too with emotions and needs.

I can attest to addicts, even in prescription cases, become dependent faster than they could realize and the main barrier to getting help early on is shame. Shame prevents one from reaching out, and I ended up hiding my homelessness from my parents till they had to rescue me, otherwise I was going to die.

After shame, denial sets in because we all think of ourselves as "better than that," incapable of being addicted (as I know I did). Only when full blown addiction sets in does one even entertain the idea of reaching out. This must stop. We must welcome addicts with open arms, the earlier the dependency is caught, the better chance of a full recovery.

I can also attest that factually people become addicted as a result of seeking escape from our dire world, abject to those in poverty. To a select group, say 25% of the population, life is easily manageable and all services exist without judgment. But to say, the bottom 40%, when prescribed opiates that not only relieve physical pain but also mental anguish and relief, it's a no brainer to continue seeking this amazing pill (incidentally, heroin got its name by providing one with energy to perform "heroic" feats like long work hours like the American populace does--it's increased by some 3100 additional hours since the 1980s). This drive to continue taking a pill that makes you holistically better is entirely understandable but most are unaware of the power of addiction since it is so outrageously taboo.

People are addicted to all sorts of things in modern society but many are acceptable addictions. Take shopping or the pursuit/love of money, these are widely held societal values despite their destructive nature and constant demands placed on the individual (by their own doing but it quickly takes one over as I experienced). We need to understand addiction is a much broader problem and begin to treat those with drug depedency in a humanitarian fashion. But the trends appear to be getting worse before it will get better.

My main advocacy is to educate yourself on addiction like what addiction does to a person. Just as gay people have become less marginalized, so must the addict by perhaps becoming acquainted with them, understanding their situation, treating a person as a person and not some low-life. In almost all cases prior to addiction, the person was generally regarded as good and was not known as a thief. Addiction rewires the brain, it is no easy task to combat something internal. Offer support, not criticism.


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## oldfart (Mar 3, 2014)

HUGGY said:


> oldfart said:
> 
> 
> > There are some situations where there is zero chance Tylenol is going to work.  I get your point, but in the middle of an acute gall bladder attack is not a good time to try Tylenol as a replacement for effective analgesics.  Due to a records screw up I had the dubious pleasure of twelve hours in a hospital in such a situation.  I have also had morphine post-surgery after a triple bypass and from two major abdominal surgeries.  In each case I was off morphine by the fourth day.  Frankly there are some things in post-surgery rehab that are not going to happen without effective analgesics.
> ...



Ouch!  I understand the kidney stone problem and it's about an 8.5--9.0+ on anybody's scale.  In 1966 I had surgery to repair a blocked ureter resulting from a pedestrian--truck accident (I was the pedestrian) fourteenth months previously.  The pain was exactly what you would get from a kidney stone stuck in a ureter, except that it went on for nine months, destroyed 96% of the interior of the kidney from the fluid buildup, and caused me to drop from 145 pounds to 94 pounds (I'm 5'10").   Back in the day there was no such thing as morphine pumps.  A nurse came in every four hours or so and you got stuck in the butt.  After three days you got to go cold turkey.  I have a 26" incision scar as a souvenir.  That was surgery in the Marcus Welby era.  

And yes, projectile vomiting is a good indication that the pain control is not working.  So are second degree burns from heating pads you don't even notice.  Add blurred vision and involuntary repetitive motion to the stew.  Some people actually die from the pain and not the underlying condition.  Blood pressure rises to the point the patient can stroke out.  We don't keep statistics on how many people die from chronic and severe pain, or from suicide prompted by it; but my guess is that that number is several times the number of truly accidental overdoses.


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## HUGGY (Mar 4, 2014)

gnarlylove said:


> Excellent discussion from my youthful vantage point (as a 26 yr old semi-professional philosopher and ex-homeless heroin addict). Opiates are way powerful and seductive threatening whole nations. It doesn't take much to look back on the Opium Wars and see what opiates can do to a people.
> 
> I grew up and currently live in hillbilly heroin alley, in Appalachia. It has devastated our community and continues to more and more. It exceeds our tiny capacity as a poor community to address these issues. I am part of a suboxone clinic that has aided in my transformation back into the stable life but it is costly--too costly. Having known all the stories and angles from the nurse who is known as the best worker stealing pills of patients who refuse them to the permanently homeless crack and heroin addicts among whom I have lived extensively.
> 
> ...



Again we have snared a good hearted soul that has missed the point entirely.  *There must be no recovering addicts thread available*.

OK..We have big shoulders but there is a distinct point this thread is about and THAT is concerning patients with CP under close supervision taking U/As frequently and hair follical testing for over or UNDER use of the prescribed pain medication.  

The theiving nurse was a nice touch but that is hardly germain to this discussion.  

YOUR inability to stay off the street is not really part of this discussion either.  Some people are too out of control to be helped.  I am sorry for that situation but frankly my plate is full with another issue. 

Again ..this discussion has nothing to do with the "Hillbilly heroin" situation in the Appalatians.  I nor any of the friends I advocate for are addicted to anything except cigarettes.  We probably drink more coffee than we need to.  No one I hang out with drinks very much at all. OK there is one friend that drinks too much but he isn't part of this discussion.  

I'm talking about responsible people that pay thier bills..have a place to live.. have horrible cronic pain ..and the medical system has let them down due to a new Government policy and their fear of having their medical liscences taken away by the DEA.

I am trying to keep this thread focused on people that keep their doctors appointments and jump through all the requested hoops and still are denied pain medication strictly because of THIS NEW GOVERNMENT DRUG RESTRICTION POLICY...

..not diagnosis.  AND in some cases falsifying diagnosis to cover up the fear of being caught denying the proper medication.


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## HUGGY (Mar 4, 2014)

oldfart said:


> HUGGY said:
> 
> 
> > oldfart said:
> ...



WOW!  You have certainly had a tortured relationship with the medical issues.  The passage I *boldined* is more in line with the discussion I was hoping to generate.  

The drug policy as it stands and where it is threatened to go has purposefully diminished the value of pain as a controllable entity and a responsibility for the medical community to address.  

Throwing the corpses of foolish out of control people at the feet of responsible IN CONTROL people as a reason to deny them medical help is goulish and cynical.


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## FA_Q2 (Mar 4, 2014)

HUGGY said:


> oldfart said:
> 
> 
> > HUGGY said:
> ...



This is what happens when you throw personal freedom out the window in favor of being &#8216;taken care&#8217; of.  What the government does with the drug industry is completely asinine.  Here (Washington) you can&#8217;t get a common cold medication over the counter if it contains sudafedrin without delivering a whole list of personal information so they can track your usage because they are combating the evil methamphetamine labs by taking it away from the common user.  I really hope you don&#8217;t get sick for over 7 days or the local government is going to kick in your door.

Surprisingly enough &#8211; it does not seem to have hampered meth production at all  

We should be allowing patents and doctors to make those calls.  Simple as that.  Sure, abuse is a problem BUT that is a twofold issue that has nothing to do with the current &#8216;solution.&#8217;  Some people are going to make piss poor decisions and are going to abuse drugs.  You are not stopping them by making it difficult for people to get required prescriptions through their doctors nor should a doctor be liable for the bad decisions that you make.  Also, the control that is put on the drug industry makes alternative products damn near nonexistent.  Someone mentioned pot in the thread already &#8211; just one example of a drug that can have a better result than the myriad of opiates that we deal in.

There is something to be said about doctors overusing some of the more powerful stuff though.  I think that is a personal responsibility issue though.  If a doctor says you can have morphine that does not mean that you have to take it.  You are completely capable of asking for something else.  There is no reason that those refusing to take charge of what they willingly place in their bodies should somehow effect the ability for the rest of us to use it when we NEED it.  The idea that we are not the ultimate arbiters of our health is rather asinine.

I remember once we were in the hospital for some treatments for my son and we requested some Tylenol because he has some discomfort.  The nurse went to go talk to the doc to see if we could get some and returned letting us know that the doc did not want him to take Tylenol because it might mask a fever.  They were willing to give him some morphine though in its place. 

Naturally I asked how we made the jump from Tylenol to morphine.  There should be something a little less extreme.  After leaving and coming back she had another solution &#8211; oxycodone.  At that point we said we would just deal with it.  He was uncomfortable, not in severe or even moderate pain and with the amounts of opiates and other very nasty drugs he has already been on there was little reason to pump him with some more without cause.


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## editec (Mar 4, 2014)

This thread SHOULD HAVE SOMETHING TO DO WITH HILLBILLY HEROIN

Why?

Because the vast majority of people now addicted to Oxy originally got the med from the Doctors.

Their problem back pain should be treated with something less addictive.

Now do I doubt that some people need opiates for pain, that they will need them for th rest of their lives and that their addiction is medically necessary?

Not one bit.

But MOST^ people now using OXI in America do NOT NEED that much medication.

Most people get turned into junkies by the doctors.

I know at least 3 people this happened too.

Their original pain was not prohound enough to warrant opiates but now they're trapped by their opiate addiction.

Tough call I suppose for MDs and patients, too.

But ESHEW opiates if at all possible, CITIZENS (how's that, Huggy?) because OPIATES are DAMNED addictive.


I'd say the same thing about amphetimines being handed out like candy to our children and now to mature adult citizens, too.

Not one in ten people taking Ritalin actually needs ritalin.

Who to blame?

_DOCTORS of course._


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## oldfart (Mar 4, 2014)

FA_Q2 said:


> I remember once we were in the hospital for some treatments for my son and we requested some Tylenol because he has some discomfort.  The nurse went to go talk to the doc to see if we could get some and returned letting us know that the doc did not want him to take Tylenol because it might mask a fever.  They were willing to give him some morphine though in its place.
> 
> Naturally I asked how we made the jump from Tylenol to morphine.  There should be something a little less extreme.  After leaving and coming back she had another solution  oxycodone.  At that point we said we would just deal with it.  He was uncomfortable, not in severe or even moderate pain and with the amounts of opiates and other very nasty drugs he has already been on there was little reason to pump him with some more without cause.



Unfortunately I don't think there is a non-opiod that is not an NSAID that would mask fever.  For example, Fiorecet and Fiorinal work well on moderate pain containing butalbital, caffeine, and either aspirin or acetominaphen.  But the last two are NSAIDs.  

Maybe someone with a better grasp of pharmacology could help us here, but I can't think of one.


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## gnarlylove (Mar 4, 2014)

My post was the result of skimming for key words that already fit my understanding of a debate on pain meds. So, definitely I was way off the mark. However, pain medication is prescribed in this country probably at much higher rates than is needed. This is a general trend of the health care industry and has very negative consequences given the addictive power of certain medications like oxy, hydrocodone etc.

I've taken care of people with CP and I've not known them to use paid medication. But that was 3 cases only so I am no expert. But as far as arguing for people doing the right thing who are denied pain medication is the result of how potent and serious the national problem is.

Around 700CE famous Chinese doctor Sun Si-miao said that when a person is sick, the doctor should first regulate the patient's diet and lifestyle. In most cases, these changes alone are enough to effect a cure over time. Only once these changes are identified as inadequate, says Sun Si-miao, should the doctor administer other interventions such as internal medicine and acupuncture. So there are plenty of routes to improve one's life without taking opiates if you are simply seeking a richer life. Opiates should be a later resort, although it's virtually impossible to expect the same level of pain suppression AND numbed out feeling opiates provide. But should one take significant doses of opiates to be numbed out? Sounds like part of the issue is simply coping with CP in the first place because no matter what, opiates will numb you out (above say 10mg).


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## HUGGY (Mar 4, 2014)

gnarlylove said:


> My post was the result of skimming for key words that already fit my understanding of a debate on pain meds. So, definitely I was way off the mark. However, pain medication is prescribed in this country probably at much higher rates than is needed. This is a general trend of the health care industry and has very negative consequences given the addictive power of certain medications like oxy, hydrocodone etc.
> 
> I've taken care of people with CP and I've not known them to use paid medication. But that was 3 cases only so I am no expert. But as far as arguing for people doing the right thing who are denied pain medication is the result of how potent and serious the national problem is.
> 
> Around 700CE famous Chinese doctor Sun Si-miao said that when a person is sick, the doctor should first regulate the patient's diet and lifestyle. In most cases, these changes alone are enough to effect a cure over time. Only once these changes are identified as inadequate, says Sun Si-miao, should the doctor administer other interventions such as internal medicine and acupuncture. So there are plenty of routes to improve one's life without taking opiates if you are simply seeking a richer life. Opiates should be a later resort, although it's virtually impossible to expect the same level of pain suppression AND numbed out feeling opiates provide. But should one take significant doses of opiates to be numbed out? Sounds like part of the issue is simply coping with CP in the first place because no matter what, opiates will numb you out (above say 10mg).



There are thousands of ailments known to human kind.  I advocate for those that have lived more than less of their years and have by that longevity learned enough about themselves that they do not need to be treated as if they are stupid or ignorant of the consequences of the choices they may want or HAVE to make to survive at whatever level or quality of ability they want.

Myself approaching 65 I have been to enough parties that I know when or not to get behind the wheel of an automobile.  I have been under the influence of opiates as the result of injury and just worn out parts to know when to call a cab if I need to get to the doctor or a pharmacy or just to buy some groceries or other provisions.

Certainly there is a lesser quality of life by a healthy 19 year olds standards as one grows older and may need to numb the senses at times or even for the dururation of what time is left as the body naturally breaks down.

I am acutely aware that I am not a healthy 19 year old HUGGY.  So are the people I write these word in behalf that THEY are not spring chickens either.

BUT we make up for the strength and endurance of youth with guile and treachery so this is fair warning to those that have pushed us to this.


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## HUGGY (Mar 4, 2014)

oldfart said:


> FA_Q2 said:
> 
> 
> > I remember once we were in the hospital for some treatments for my son and we requested some Tylenol because he has some discomfort.  The nurse went to go talk to the doc to see if we could get some and returned letting us know that the doc did not want him to take Tylenol because it might mask a fever.  They were willing to give him some morphine though in its place.
> ...



The care of the youth from birth to young adulthood is a field all of its own.  I totally sympathize with the responsibility of those that as well as having to keep their own health issues in check must also supervise the handling of their offspring.

This is a thread concerning health issues of those of us that have not fallen in front of buses or taken chances ending our time here leaving us to fend off issues not from bad judgement but from the ravages of having outlived many that did not make all the right descisons along the way.

Stories about babies breath and his or her first asprin are cute as a bugs ear but seriously???  I would train my offspring to keep their eyes out for drunk drivers and point them out along the way at every opportunity if you want your kid to have a reasonable chance to make it to adulthood.


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## gnarlylove (Mar 4, 2014)

I am not attacking you. But it is prudent for everyone to be aware of what habits they engage in and what habits are not healthy. By ignoring habits and emphasizing the break down of the body, one becomes less prudent and more stubborn. There certainly are changes that start at 25, and I can attest I am not like I was at 17 or 20. But believing a fatalistic view that you can do nothing to improve your well-being but take pain meds is a definite sign of dependency. Whether you admit it or not I am very keen on the language used to distance oneself from understanding their dependency on pain medication. If you have taken it for more than 3 months straight, I promise you that you are edging towards dependency. 

I'm not aiming to criticize you. My aim is to alert you to taking up new ways of living that can improve your well being. Opiates always sedate and remove concern for improving your life since it improves it for you. if I may suggest taking up spiritual awareness and meditation in your golden age. I want to see you be happy without also being fatalistic and destroying your brain as I have for years. Luckily I've been clean for 16 months and have come into the most important aspect of life: the spiritual. I encourage you, whether you take pain meds or not to experiment with say the Tao Teh Ching or meditation or Buddhism or even Christianity. This can improve your outlook 100 fold despite a natural decline that overtakes us all.


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## whitehall (Mar 4, 2014)

Denying people pain meds because they might accidentally overdose or someone else might use them illegally is an abusive use of federal regulations. Who knows what is in the almost 4,000 page Act that Obama signed into law. It's possible that federal agencies were empowered as never before and we might as well get used to Uncle looking over our shoulders as long as Uncle pays the medical bills.


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## HUGGY (Mar 4, 2014)

gnarlylove said:


> I am not attacking you. But it is prudent for everyone to be aware of what habits they engage in and what habits are not healthy. By ignoring habits and emphasizing the break down of the body, one becomes less prudent and more stubborn. There certainly are changes that start at 25, and I can attest I am not like I was at 17 or 20. But believing a fatalistic view that you can do nothing to improve your well-being but take pain meds is a definite sign of dependency. Whether you admit it or not I am very keen on the language used to distance oneself from understanding their dependency on pain medication. If you have taken it for more than 3 months straight, I promise you that you are edging towards dependency.
> 
> I'm not aiming to criticize you. My aim is to alert you to taking up new ways of living that can improve your well being. Opiates always sedate and remove concern for improving your life since it improves it for you. if I may suggest taking up spiritual awareness and meditation in your golden age. I want to see you be happy without also being fatalistic and destroying your brain as I have for years. Luckily I've been clean for 16 months and have come into the most important aspect of life: the spiritual. I encourage you, whether you take pain meds or not to experiment with say the Tao Teh Ching or meditation or Buddhism or even Christianity. This can improve your outlook 100 fold despite a natural decline that overtakes us all.



I appreciate your concern and just the fact that I put this debate in the Clean Debate Zone by design insures that attacks will be minimal.

I am just getting started on my little campaign as a result of conditions I see in mine and others of my peer group and the astonishing lack of push back on the internets and elsewhere at the war against people with cronic pain advoctaed by the DEA and the medical community under durress and threat.

You have no knowledge of what I have experienced or investigated.  Assuming I am without wit or curiosity would be a mistake.  My experiences go far beyond most have or could ever have dreamed of I assure you.  

My own personal discomfort and dissability lies in the lower spine where two crushed discs and the adjoining spinal deterioration from arthritis are grinding on the sciatic nerves complicated by obstruction in the opening going through the pelvic bone.  None of your gods or fairies will help this condition. The initial cause was the very physical life I did lead when more capable including rock climbing and competition mountain river kayaking as well as ocean beach kayaking where the most serious injuries occured. Multiple back flips on the beach from 20 foot breaking waves when I was in my twenties set the eventual outcome I am now living through in motion and there is NOTHING that can be done about it.  It has been made clear to me truthfully or not by several doctors that I am not a good candidate for surgery to correct the problems.  I have yet to see a surgeon to get a more precise diagnosis as that has to be approved by my provider and has not.  I see it as another institutionalized roadblock to any possible recovery.  I have attended dozens of physical therapy sessions and found them useless and frankly insulting...painfull...and annoying.  Physical therapy does not cure or even help what has gone wrong with my body.

Additionally I would beg to add that this thread IS NOT a HUGGY pity party.  There is PLENTY of that happening at "Heathboards" the most widely used medical patient message board.  Their in house rule of not being able to use the vast membership(over1,000,000) to organize any patient generated input aimed back at the government or physicians associations is astonishing and utterly incomprehensible.  They have a very insulting "hugs" feature for those of you that just want annoymous attention and no actual help.  You can and will get banned for offering ANY advice to anyone at this mega site.


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## gnarlylove (Mar 4, 2014)

"None of your gods or fairies will help this condition"

I'm not here to challenge your categorization of religion. It was my mistake for only listing classic texts. There is another side that is equally important: it's not the belief system but the *activity *of spiritual practice that enlivens one. [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GfSlyLWqdZg"]Yoga[/ame], Tai Chi, martial arts etc. are vital to one's health and improving condition, including outlook that can truly dissolve aspects of pain. Having never tried it myself, I resisted like most people do. But being honest and actually giving it a shot reveals effects previously thought impossible.

"Imaging finds different forms of meditation may affect brain structure"

So meditation is like a pain med, it changes your brain.

Furthermore, &#8220;There is a true biological effect" just like with pain meds.

Indeed, the more we hold onto our ways, our ego, the more pain we perceive to experience. The more we let go of our individuation, the more we become unified with that which cannot be damaged. The more we tap into this limitless essence of the universe, the more we can do previously impossible tasks. Take the example of drying a completely wet towel on your back while naked sitting in 25 degree weather. This sounds absurd. You know what? It is done all the time.Harvard Gazette: Meditation changes temperatures

My conclusion in my few months of honestly pursuing alternative measures to manage pain and mental stress, I have found no better option then what I have mentioned. It's no easy task but anything worth doing isn't. It's awfully easy to pop a pill and can be costly. I am in no way condemning the use of pain meds for managing pain, but don't think the happy pill is the only solution for you in your condition. I know we always want to resist doing things that require effort but it is proven that if you stick to spiritual practice, you will improve mentally, physically and spiritually. Healthy nutritious food is plenty of water can't hurt either. I understand your condition is quite physical but drinking sufficient water each day can possibly alleviate some of the tension in all sincerity. This is the main solution for many people who have back pain but don't nourish their bodies. It's just a matter of how much do you care. Pain meds remove this care for alternatives--I know this all too well as it became my whole existence--but combining them could prove monumental in your life.

Are there problems with drug distribution and policy in the US? HELL YES! And in order to combat that, we must join together and fight it. I am totally with you. But what you can do today can take you one step closer to living a less painful existence. I am well aware of back pain, my dad has been on pain meds since 97 and taking it helps him tremendously but opiates tend to make you passive. Your approach to challenging DEA is a great step and you could benefit by taking this pro-active effort to other areas of your life for even more improvement.


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## HUGGY (Mar 4, 2014)

gnarlylove said:


> "None of your gods or fairies will help this condition"
> 
> I'm not here to challenge your categorization of religion. It was my mistake for only listing classic texts. There is another side that is equally important: it's not the belief system but the *activity *of spiritual practice that enlivens one. Yoga, Tai Chi, martial arts etc. are vital to one's health and improving condition, including outlook that can truly dissolve aspects of pain. Having never tried it myself, I resisted like most people do. But being honest and actually giving it a shot reveals effects previously thought impossible.
> 
> ...



Fascinating stuff for sure..  With no pain medication I cannot reach to put on socks on my left foot.  With 30 mg of morphine sulfate in my system I can just barely reach and put on socks.  

Yoga and other similar exercises prescribed in the myriad of physical therapy assisted and un assisted is a futile "excercise" in torture for me.  I don't know how many times I must say that my condition IS NOT GOING TO HEAL.  Crushed and bulging discs do not miraculously repair themselves.  Arthritically degenerated spinal sections do not magically regenerate bone tissue.  Openings in the pelvic bone closing with calcium deposit do not etherically open wide for nerve passage.

Please stop attempting to insult my intelligence and make light of mine and others pain.  Maybe a harsh criticism but after having gone through the whole gambit and having been a student and private practicioneer of meditation ..student of several martial arts schools including Kung Foo..Tai Chi ..Karate .. by some of the best sensais available since I was 17 I REALLY don't believe your suggestion has been overlooked.  I am expert in beathing technique using color visualization to aid in decending to sleep.  I could and have taught the subject.

You do not know how much time and discomfort I have invested in the above sort of prescription by some of the so called best physicians working in one of the best university medical staffs in the world.

I cannot function without EXTREME discomfort without the aid of pain killer.  I can BARELY function with pain killer but the difference is HUGE in my life as it affects my sense of well being and mood.  With grinding pain 24/7 I am not a happy camper. I am very angry all of the time and hate living that way.  When I can aquire enough pain medication to "take the edge off" of the hell I normally endure my mood brightens up significantly and just the ability to put on a pair of socks is an uplifting experience.

Describing pain medication as "happy pills" is condecending and frankly highly insulting to the words I am putting out here about mine and others conditions.

Many of my friends are dealing with similar problems involving chronic pain.

As for your prescription..been there done that..please pass the pain medication ...thank you.


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## HUGGY (Mar 4, 2014)

Screw you Bill Clinton...

Prescription painkillers: FDA aims to tighten control of hydrocodone - CNN.com

"(CNN) -- One person dies every 19 minutes from a prescription drug overdose in the United States.

In an effort to combat "misuse and abuse," the Food and Drug Administration is proposing new restrictions that would change regulations for some of the most commonly prescribed narcotic painkillers on the market."

Full story and video featuring that rat f**ker Bill Clinton at link.


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## gnarlylove (Mar 4, 2014)

I am not trying to insult you. I am offering other solutions *in addition to morphine sulfate* that could work in tandem. It's clear not being able to put socks on without massive pain requires medication. In fact, your pain is so severe that you cannot identify yourself without pain. Experiencing pain is central to your identity. If you didn't experience pain you'd not recognize yourself. I'm suggesting to let go of an iota of this identity. While pain is physical, there is much to be said that pain does not imply suffering. Suffering is an interpretation of the pain signals. I hope you are not suffering and its clear you are quite smart. Of course I nor you can simply stop suffering on a dime, but we can work towards differentiating between the two.

I am not saying disks will magically heal and I am not a believer in miracles like one might see on Benny Hinn. And we both know American forms of treatment focus on the bottom line, money, not genuine health. So I've worked for years as a CNA and in therapy and know the basics in and out. In most cases, therapists either don't do shit to begin with for a person, don't spend enough time listening to the patient, or they don't know truly helpful methods. American education in physical therapy is very Western without much attention to proven techniques outside allopathic treatment, like Yoga, Tai Chi etc.

I admit many or even most forms of yoga would be detrimental to your back without a doubt. But the one I linked, while some movements would not benefit you, I promise you most of them are gentle postures/movements intended to put movement and fluid into the joints and body that would benefit you. And the ones that don't, simply don't do them. Any tension or pain means to stop: do not do. Moreover, Tai Chi is very easy on the body and is the the opposite of strain. You might seek a class in your area after taking your meds. I have tried to offer recommendations the average westerner is not introduced to over the course of years of seeking treatment. But as long as you stick to what you've done, there's no reason to expect improvement. Maybe you didn't come here to hear about ways of improvement. I respect that and want to clarify I'm not_ telling_ you to do these things, I'm merely mentioning them as information, if you are inclined. If you don't want to do them I hope you choose so based on what's best for you, not what bad therapists have done. In the end, you are your own therapist. God I can't stop talking!


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## HUGGY (Mar 4, 2014)

gnarlylove said:


> I am not trying to insult you. I am offering other solutions *in addition to morphine sulfate* that could work in tandem. It's clear not being able to put socks on without massive pain requires medication. In fact, your pain is so severe that you cannot identify yourself without pain. Experiencing pain is central to your identity. If you didn't experience pain you'd not recognize yourself. I'm suggesting to let go of an iota of this identity. While pain is physical, there is much to be said that pain does not imply suffering. Suffering is an interpretation of the pain signals. I hope you are not suffering and its clear you are quite smart. Of course I nor you can simply stop suffering on a dime, but we can work towards differentiating between the two.
> 
> I am not saying disks will magically heal and I am not a believer in miracles like one might see on Benny Hinn. And we both know American forms of treatment focus on the bottom line, money, not genuine health. So I've worked for years as a CNA and in therapy and know the basics in and out. In most cases, therapists either don't do shit to begin with for a person, don't spend enough time listening to the patient, or they don't know truly helpful methods. American education in physical therapy is very Western without much attention to proven techniques outside allopathic treatment, like Yoga, Tai Chi etc.
> 
> I admit many or even most forms of yoga would be detrimental to your back without a doubt. But the one I linked, while some movements would not benefit you, I promise you most of them are gentle postures/movements intended to put movement and fluid into the joints and body that would benefit you. And the ones that don't, simply don't do them. Any tension or pain means to stop: do not do. Moreover, Tai Chi is very easy on the body and is the the opposite of strain. *You might seek a class in your area after taking your meds*. I have tried to offer recommendations the average westerner is not introduced to over the course of years of seeking treatment. But as long as you stick to what you've done, there's no reason to expect improvement. Maybe you didn't come here to hear about ways of improvement. I respect that and want to clarify I'm not_ telling_ you to do these things, I'm merely mentioning them as information, if you are inclined. If you don't want to do them I hope you choose so based on what's best for you, not what bad therapists have done. In the end, you are your own therapist. God I can't stop talking!



"*You might seek a class in your area after taking your meds*. "  I have considered that possibility.  Unfortunately my access to legitimate(manufactured) pain medication is sporadic and I am gratefull for the brief moments I have them and just try to get the things done around the crib that I put off untill medicinal help arrives.  Not being able to count on any dependable schedule of medication makes putting other people in the loop undooable.  The last thing a teacher needs is a cranky student.. 

Clearly your heart is in a good place.  

Anyone looking at a seed for the first time has no idea what it is supposed to be when it matures.  Starting a thread on the internet is like planting a seed that takes time to grow into what the original author intends.

I appreciate the effort.  

Sean


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## FA_Q2 (Mar 4, 2014)

HUGGY said:


> oldfart said:
> 
> 
> > FA_Q2 said:
> ...



Except my story was not of babies first aspirin nor is it cute.  It is fucking tragic.  It was about struggles that we have had with leukemia and the related years of treatments that he went through.

Do you really think that the doctor was offering morphine because of a bruise?  Think Huggy - being old is not the sole cause of serious pain.


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## FA_Q2 (Mar 4, 2014)

oldfart said:


> FA_Q2 said:
> 
> 
> > I remember once we were in the hospital for some treatments for my son and we requested some Tylenol because he has some discomfort.  The nurse went to go talk to the doc to see if we could get some and returned letting us know that the doc did not want him to take Tylenol because it might mask a fever.  They were willing to give him some morphine though in its place.
> ...



I would assume there isn't.  His doctors are no pushovers.  I really wonder though if the possibility of masking a fever was really worse than possible overexposure to drugs as strong as morphine.

I seriously doubt that it was.  It is not like this was going to be continuous either.  The doctors were not actively monitoring temperature more often than maybe every 4 hours.  That alone tells me that a little Tylenol would have been fine but they jumped to the opiate anyway.


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## FA_Q2 (Mar 4, 2014)

editec said:


> Who to blame?
> 
> _DOCTORS of course._



I hope you are joking.  

Why are the doctors to blame for what you personally ingest into your own damn body.  The doctors don't force that into you.  As a matter of fact, they give you a mountain of paperwork that tells you EXACTLY what the effects can be.  Where is the personal responsibility here.  You are given all the tools necessary to ensure that your pain management is handled in the manner that you choose (when the doctors are willing to give you that option which seems to be a problem as Huggy points out) and the failure in using that drug is on the person that is abusing it.
Granted, addiction is ugly but the first step in digging out of that hole is to recognize that you created it in the first place.  No one else.


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## Jarlaxle (Mar 4, 2014)

HUGGY said:


> Jarlaxle said:
> 
> 
> > oldfart said:
> ...



Been there...fractured skull, multiple broken ribs that never healed properly, pinched nerves.  I would take eight or twelve Tylenol 3's just to take the edge off and manage 2-3 hours of sleep.  A few times, when it was really bad, I washed them down with alcohol.



> Unless you have walked in someone elses shoes you have no right to say what they have endured.
> 
> Your fear of addiction is YOUR fear.  When I had my ciatic nerve pinched in job related accident I thought after a month of the horrible pain that I might consider suicide.  Then I went to a couple of emergency rooms at hospitals and got morphine shots directly into the leg.  Some relief ..felt nauseous.  Directed to a doctor that prescribed oxycondon and codiene..no help..  eventuall I was swallowing handfulls of methadone.. It took away almost all of the pain.  Story short ..I laid on my stomack in the bottom of my 35 ft Chris Craft for another two months with ice packs on my spine .. I healed and when the pain was actually gone I kicked the massive dose of narcotics in three weeks.  Sure I was addicted but so what.  The ablility to sleep and stay still definitly aided in my recovery and healing.  So I DO know of forced addiction AND the further work of injury recovery to force one's self off that which saved his life.



I somehow managed to not end up hooked on painkillers or a full-blown lush...I KNOW I will not be that lucky again.  I'd rather be dead than live addicted.


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## Jarlaxle (Mar 4, 2014)

FA_Q2 said:


> editec said:
> 
> 
> > Who to blame?
> ...



He has a point.  Many doctors will prescribe Oxy or Percoset when it's not needed.


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## FA_Q2 (Mar 4, 2014)

Jarlaxle said:


> FA_Q2 said:
> 
> 
> > editec said:
> ...



No he doesnt.  I already stated that was the case and even gave an example but in the end it is YOUR choice to put that medication in your body.  No one elses.  Should doctors be vigilant or liable if they purposefully write a bad script?  Yes.  Is it their responsibility to ensure that you take your medications responsibly or avoid them when they are unnecessary?  No, not at all.  You are the ONLY person that can tell if you really need the pain medication.  A doctor can talk to you to determine if he thinks it is a possibility but only you are feeling what you are going through.  You know if that pain is completely durable or if you need something to help deal with it.

Personal responsibility  it does not end just because you walked through a doctors door.


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## oldfart (Mar 4, 2014)

HUGGY said:


> oldfart said:
> 
> 
> > FA_Q2 said:
> ...



You formatted this post as a reply to mine, but I see absolutely no connection.  Are you confusing posters or am I missing something?  

FA_Q2 posted about an experience with his son, where an explanation was given that NSAIDs were not being used because they would mask fever, and an opiod was offered.  My comment was that I was unaware of a pain medication that was not an opiod or NSAID, with an example.  I asked if anyone knew of another class of drug that would be available in that situation.   How this got to your last paragraph of hysterical  diatribe totally escapes me.


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## oldfart (Mar 4, 2014)

HUGGY said:


> Fascinating stuff for sure..  With no pain medication I cannot reach to put on socks on my left foot.  With 30 mg of morphine sulfate in my system I can just barely reach and put on socks.
> 
> Yoga and other similar exercises prescribed in the myriad of physical therapy assisted and un assisted is a futile "excercise" in torture for me.  I don't know how many times I must say that my condition IS NOT GOING TO HEAL.  Crushed and bulging discs do not miraculously repair themselves.  Arthritically degenerated spinal sections do not magically regenerate bone tissue.  Openings in the pelvic bone closing with calcium deposit do not etherically open wide for nerve passage.
> 
> ...



Thanks for stating so well what has to be said.  I also deal with chronic pain issues as well as a few acute pain episodes.  Thankfully I achieve reasonable pain control with diet, exercise, meditation, acetaminophen, a bunch of medication for stuff other than pain control, and occasional use of butalbital.  There have been years when this was not sufficient, and I expect there will be times in the future when it will not be sufficient.  

The sanctimonious attitude of many who have been deprecating you goes away when they have a loved one with intractable pain screaming for help in ending a pain-filled existence.  It happens a lot.  There is a reason ER workers have last friend understandings.  They wouldn't be necessary except for the elitists who think that they have the right to make these decisions for the lesser folk who have to be protected from themselves.  When the time comes for their spouse or child, I hope they remember the sanctimonious manure they dished out on this topic.


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## HUGGY (Mar 4, 2014)

oldfart said:


> HUGGY said:
> 
> 
> > oldfart said:
> ...



Both...probably more his than yours.


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## HUGGY (Mar 4, 2014)

oldfart said:


> HUGGY said:
> 
> 
> > Fascinating stuff for sure..  With no pain medication I cannot reach to put on socks on my left foot.  With 30 mg of morphine sulfate in my system I can just barely reach and put on socks.
> ...



I'm not going away any time soon..  

I just don't want the next twenty or so years to be uneccesarily unbearable.  There is still much I would like to accomplish.  Frozen with pain there is no way I can do much at all.  It may take a while to turn back the tide to a more reasonable mindset from within the medical comunity and some Congressional push back towards the Nazis at the DEA but that is all I have ..so be it.

All this talk of secret pacts is spooky !!!


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## HUGGY (Mar 4, 2014)

FA_Q2 said:


> HUGGY said:
> 
> 
> > oldfart said:
> ...



It is clear that there will be some rubbing fur the wrong way with a subject that encompasses so much mental as well as physical anguish.

I have no intention or desire to make light of anyone's or their childs pain.  I hope you can see as a sort of moderator(unnofficial) of this thread attempting to reach a specific goal of enlightenment that somehow transforms to action that I have to steer the topic towards my goals which I hope will help all who feel that there are problems with the delivery of pain medication in our country.


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## HUGGY (Mar 4, 2014)

"*
FDA Action on Vicodin May Mean More Pain, Not Less Addiction or Overdose*

Stricter rules for prescribing opioids may not be the only answer to curbing addiction to painkillers"

FDA Action on Vicodin May Mean More Pain, Not Less Addiction or Overdose | TIME.com


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## Tresha91203 (Mar 4, 2014)

My mother has chronic pain. She has been given more diagnosis than I can count and all of them have been best guesses. All they know for sure is that her spinal column contracts, pinching the nerves running through it. She requires surgeries to put stints in to try to keep it open. There have been 3 of those over a dozen years. Currently, we are trying to avoid the next one, as it should be in the neck, requiring 2 stages, front and back. The chance of paralysis is alarming.

She's tried everything: physical therapy (helps to keep as much range of motion as possible), accupuncture (no effect), meditation (no effect), prolotherapy (very painful procedures every 6 weeks with moderate success for a few weeks after, until that doctor said that was all he could do), a spinal implant that makes her vibrate to distract the mind from the pain (she is very happy with that, as she was able to reduce her pain med dosage by half), and now some weird doc that is teaching her to "chase the pain" to one central place (so far, so good, some success and she is optimistic).  

Before the stimulator implant, she was on a patch med (phentanyl duragisic sp?) and still needed "breakthrough" oral meds daily. She is thrilled to be off that, as she could not even read on that stuff. Even after all that, even with the successful non narcotic stimulator implant, she is on a main pain med and breakthrough meds. She gets so excited during the good periods when she can reduce, and gets so depressed when the column gets too tight (indicating it is time for another surgery) and she has to go up on the meds. She will never be off those meds. All her doctors tell her that. There is no cure. It is not fatal, just chronic.  Addiction is not even an issue, as there is zero chance of any quality of life without those meds.

Her pain is very real. Her movement is limited, but she can function well enough if the pain is managed. She's been through emotional hell, and I had to put her on a 72 hour hold 20 years ago when she found out this was permanent and progressive. Thankfully, she stayed 30 days and got the help she needed to process that. Still, she has to go on antidepressants every so often when it gets too overwhelming. After finding her on the bathroom floor in the fetal position and discovering she had been there about 36 hours, we've moved her into a cottage behind our house. At times her life is good and she enjoys her grandchild. At times, her life is hell and she has to wait it out ... days to months. I don't know how she does it, honestly. I know I couldn't.

Fortunately, she has great doctors, including her pain management doc. I thank God for her team, and I thank God for Avinza and Roxycodone. Without them, she would have stroked out or suicided long before her grandchild was born.


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## FA_Q2 (Mar 5, 2014)

HUGGY said:


> FA_Q2 said:
> 
> 
> > HUGGY said:
> ...



And my comments were on that topic.  You seemed to be dismissing the points because they were about a child and not someone that was old.  You can steer as you wish but I am going to call you out if I think your statements are dismissing others pain just because they are happening to the young as well. 

Pain medication for chronic illness is NOT a problem confined to your situation nor is that type of pain.  It affects everyone.  Your last statements certainly seemed as if you were making that connection.


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## HUGGY (Mar 5, 2014)

FA_Q2 said:


> HUGGY said:
> 
> 
> > FA_Q2 said:
> ...



The title of the thread is pretty clear as to the direction I hope the debate and interest travels.  For me and those closest to me that share the same lack of care from the mecical community when it comes to chronic pain the focus is what we know is wrong and what needs corrected.

That doesn't EXCLUDE young people but it is somewhat different in that the child or teen has the parents or parent or SOMEBODY interveining on their behalf.  The addition of an advocate changes the dynamics somewhat.  My experience with my primary care giver is somewhat different than what a child with parent gets.  My doctor acts friendly but looks at my chart and tells me that I am not a "good" candidate for opiods.  I ask why and reluctantly he confides that there are several red flags in my history that suggest I would fail as a patient.  One flag is that I smoke.. Another is that due to my lack of money to go to a dentist my teeth are in bad shape...several are missing.... drug addicts typically have bad teeth...I live and work in an area that is heavely populated by people that abuse drugs and themselves.  There are others he wouldn't talk about but upon pressing..The head doctor at the U of W pain mnagement clinic tried physical therapy..cortezone injections in my hip..several mood altering drugs.. After 6 months told me that they don't prescribe opiates to anyone that isn't dying from cancer or AIDS.  The State board had decided to highly restrict those prescriptions and she wasn't going to risk her liscence with helping me in that way.  That is a huge red flag in that she had made a determination that very few doctors would or could change. The next attempt at a managed pain clinic was at the Swedish Hospital and I was 5 minutes late for my first appointment and sent away  ..second appointment the doctor looked at my history and told me within two minutes that if I expected to get any pain pills don't bother us.  I wasn't even examined or questioned.  

That was over a year ago and discovered several friends treated in a similar manner.

SO.. if you or your child has suffered with bad to horrible pain medication delivery bring it on.  I don't want to vent to anyone about my personal pain.  I really don't want to hear about the pain at all. It is extremely depressing. But I will if it leads to stories that include poor medical delivery of pain medication.  What I do want to hear about is stories of how the system has failed so I can eventually contact some elected officials and let then know what needs changed.


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## HUGGY (Mar 6, 2014)

*Why are patients shut out of the debate over prescription pain medicine?
*

Why are patients shut out of the debate over prescription pain medicine?


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## Boatswain2PA (Mar 8, 2014)

oldfart said:


> HUGGY said:
> 
> 
> > oldfart said:
> ...



It appears FA Q2's son has leukemia.  I don't know what kind, but I can certainly see a situation where his physician would want to know ASAP if he developed a fever (an indication of a systemic infection), and would not want that masked by acetaminophen or an NSAID.


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## Boatswain2PA (Mar 9, 2014)

I practice emergency medicine, which is likely on the "front lines" of the four-way battle between the "drug seekers" (ie: those abusing narcotics), the chronic pain patients, the acute pain patients, and the providers.  Add in the government, and their pursuit of providers and patients, and you have a five-way battle.  

Lots of good points made here.  Chronic pain sucks.  I had a patient a few months ago with the chronic regional pain syndrome and it was almost as bad for me as it was for her (no, not really...but it was bad for me) because there was virtually nothing I could do for her other than just sedating her.  

Here is my advice for those who suffer from chronic pain:  Find a PRIMARY PROVIDER to manager ALL of your pain medications.  There is nothing like using an opioid (Dilaudid, morphine, oxy, hydro, etc) to trigger the mu-receptors in your body to dull pain.  It's the best we have.  But unfortunately it causes dependency.  Every chronic pain patient needs to have ONE primary provider to manage ALL of their pain medicines, sign that pain contract with them that allows that provider to give you a LOT of opioids in exchange for ensuring you do not get other opioids from another provider.  

If you have a pain contract, and you come into my ED with a broken bone (or other acute injury), tell me you have a pain contract, and I give you extra opioids... then your primary provider will understand.  Better yet, I will understand that I have to give you a lot MORE opioids to treat your acute (on chronic) pain.  However, if you come into my ED with a toothache, headache, back pain, or excacerbation of your chronic pain and you receive opioids, then you will be in a world of trouble because you have voided your pain contract and you will be dropped by that provider.  

Bottom line:  Work with your Doc or PA to find a way to meet your needs.  If you are concerned about addiction, talk to them.  If you are not getting enough pain relief, then talk to them.


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## specklebang (Mar 24, 2014)

I suffer from severe arthritis, particularly in my hands. The pain is blinding, I am in so much agony that I can't focus on anything else.

I could probably resolve this with surgery. The problem is that I'll only have one hand to function with for 10 weeks post-surgery. 

So, I decided to go on pain medication. I'm thoroughly dependent, I go into detox if I don't take enough. I'm currently taking 8 mg. of dilaudid daily. I expect to be on these medications for the rest of my life. 

So, this would be a frightening decision if I were not 70 years old. What if I were 20? I really don't know what I would do.

I follow the rules, I take my 8 mg. or slightly less, never more. I learned the hard way to be sure to save at least .5 mg. to take near bed-time. I tried cutting myself off at 6 PM but I would wake up sick, and literally stagger to the medicine cabinet. So, at around 11 PM I take that last little dose even if my pain level is low and I wake up feeling OK.

Unfortunately, there is no ER version of Dilaudid and even if there was, it costs 10 times as much for ER versions. I can buy 30 mg. Oxycodone for less than $1 but the ER version, Oxycontin, is $11. 

Since I don't get "high" or dysfunctional from these medications, I don't understand why there is so much negative press and DEA meddling.


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## Tresha91203 (Mar 24, 2014)

specklebang said:


> I suffer from severe arthritis, particularly in my hands. The pain is blinding, I am in so much agony that I can't focus on anything else.
> 
> I could probably resolve this with surgery. The problem is that I'll only have one hand to function with for 10 weeks post-surgery.
> 
> ...



~hugs~   Many people don't understand until it is their loved one.  Quality of life is paramount, IMO. Much better to do as you do than to wait for the pain to be too great, then you have to take twice as much to conquer it once it takes hold.


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## RosieS (Mar 24, 2014)

Boatswain2PA said:


> I practice emergency medicine, which is likely on the "front lines" of the four-way battle between the "drug seekers" (ie: those abusing narcotics), the chronic pain patients, the acute pain patients, and the providers.  Add in the government, and their pursuit of providers and patients, and you have a five-way battle.
> 
> Lots of good points made here.  Chronic pain sucks.  I had a patient a few months ago with the chronic regional pain syndrome and it was almost as bad for me as it was for her (no, not really...but it was bad for me) because there was virtually nothing I could do for her other than just sedating her.
> 
> ...



There is a difference that is major. Hospitals MUST adequately treat pain or their accreditation is at risk.

Primary care providers can do whatever they want.

Pain contracts are for the benefit of the doctor. If a chronic pain patient of theirs is not being drug seeking or otherwise a pain in the neck, primary care providers do whatever  they should no matter what the contract says.

I have been on opioid medicine for 17 years. My doctors that treat pain treat my pain meds the same as my GERD med and my cholesterol med, etc. I get as much as I need when I need it.

The problem comes when moving. Who knew a rheumatologist would not prescribe pain meds. Are you kidding?  So my primary writes it, no contract, in exchange for a monthly appointment.

It is all about doing the right thing - by all parties involved.

Regards from Rosie


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## HUGGY (Mar 24, 2014)

specklebang said:


> I suffer from severe arthritis, particularly in my hands. The pain is blinding, I am in so much agony that I can't focus on anything else.
> 
> I could probably resolve this with surgery. The problem is that I'll only have one hand to function with for 10 weeks post-surgery.
> 
> ...



I find it interesting how different pain medication effects are in any two patients.. I wouldn't even feel the effects of an 8 mg delaudid.  When I am fortunate enough to run accross pain meds from friends that take pity on my condition I have taken recently 30 mg morphine sulfate extended release.  I have to take two of those in a 4 hr time frame before I can walk upright and not have to hang on to something like a chair with wheels to keep balance.  One might think reading your post that I would be "stoned" out of my mind.  Not so. I think clearly.  Even after 60 mg of the morphine I STILL have a lot of pain and maybe that is what keeps my brain functioning at a high level.  From what you described a dose that doesn't even take away half my pain would probably be fatal to someone like yourself.  Therein lies the most recent EXCUSE coming from the DEA..and that is that far too many children and young adults steal pain meds from thier parents and relatives and end up ODing and dying.


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## Katzndogz (Mar 25, 2014)

Drug addicts have abused necessary medications so much that the ones most hurt are non drug addicts.   If addicts can't get their fix no one will get medication they really need.


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## FA_Q2 (Mar 25, 2014)

Well, as this thread has been revived, a neighbor of mine just ran into this problem as well.  He is a war vet and has been &#8216;blown up&#8217; in his convoy over a dozen times.  Quite obviously this has caused some permanent and painful side effects that require a rather constant dose of pain meds to control.  The really sad part is that he had to switch providers and that led to a gap in his treatment cycle where he was off medication entirely.  Normal people would not see this as a problem &#8211; just get more meds when he can but when he went to the doctor he was outright refused.  The reason, because there WERE NO DRUGS IN HIS SYSTEM when they administered the urine test.  Because HE WAS CLEAN!  If that is not the most asinine statement that I have ever heard.

The supposition was that he might be selling the pills.  The gap in treatment was documented and the reason known but yet the doc did not care.  He wasn&#8217;t shy about it either &#8211; he came right out and told him that he was not going to risk his medical license to help him.  NOT.  GOING.  TO.  RISK.  HIS.  LICENSE! 

As though that should ever even be in question.  It is bad when the instance and cause is well documented and it STILL leads to a doctor running scared from his job.  The government is getting out of hand.  

Now, he did have a medical pain contract and I am not sure why this didn&#8217;t play a factor &#8211; possibly because the risk was selling and not seeking to abuse.  He is currently demanding a new doctor through the VA and using the doctor&#8217;s statements as a claim of no faith in the ability and intent of the doctor to actually treat his conditions.  I am not so sure that this will work though.  While I am NOT getting into the ACA or anything like that here I can attest to one of the drawbacks to a socialized medical system like the military has with us &#8211; appealing a decision is sometimes completely pointless because they have ultimate power to say no and discard you completely.  It has happened many times to me and others I know caught up in the terrible system that is our primary means of care.  I only hope that he ends up with a reasonable person that has compassion for his circumstances in this case or he might not get any of the medication that he sacrificed body parts to get.


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## HUGGY (Mar 25, 2014)

FA_Q2 said:


> Well, as this thread has been revived, a neighbor of mine just ran into this problem as well.  He is a war vet and has been blown up in his convoy over a dozen times.  Quite obviously this has caused some permanent and painful side effects that require a rather constant dose of pain meds to control.  The really sad part is that he had to switch providers and that led to a gap in his treatment cycle where he was off medication entirely.  Normal people would not see this as a problem  just get more meds when he can but when he went to the doctor he was outright refused.  The reason, because there WERE NO DRUGS IN HIS SYSTEM when they administered the urine test.  Because HE WAS CLEAN!  If that is not the most asinine statement that I have ever heard.
> 
> The supposition was that he might be selling the pills.  The gap in treatment was documented and the reason known but yet the doc did not care.  He wasnt shy about it either  he came right out and told him that he was not going to risk his medical license to help him.  NOT.  GOING.  TO.  RISK.  HIS.  LICENSE!
> 
> ...



I'm no expert on the subject but it seems to me the above described patient should engage an attourney and sue or threaten to sue through the lawyer the doctor and the facility in question for dereliction of duty and for causing or prolonging the patients pain.

The reason I would sue is that no one illegally selling the pills would do that just so they could make 5-10 dollars a pill.  Selling a hundred pills for $5 each would certainly not be enough to make it worth it to sue anyone.  

It COULD be possible to sell enough pills to make enough money to make the risk worth it...but that would mean selling THOUSANDS of dollars worth every month.  One would need to sell several hundred pills a month to make a living at it.  If the patient had legitimate pain that would leave precious few pills to sell.  No one is going to risk losing their pain prescription source to make just a few hundred dollars a month...and be ass out controlling their own pain. 

I would sue their asses off.


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## FA_Q2 (Mar 25, 2014)

HUGGY said:


> FA_Q2 said:
> 
> 
> > Well, as this thread has been revived, a neighbor of mine just ran into this problem as well.  He is a war vet and has been blown up in his convoy over a dozen times.  Quite obviously this has caused some permanent and painful side effects that require a rather constant dose of pain meds to control.  The really sad part is that he had to switch providers and that led to a gap in his treatment cycle where he was off medication entirely.  Normal people would not see this as a problem  just get more meds when he can but when he went to the doctor he was outright refused.  The reason, because there WERE NO DRUGS IN HIS SYSTEM when they administered the urine test.  Because HE WAS CLEAN!  If that is not the most asinine statement that I have ever heard.
> ...


In most instances, you cant.  That socialized medicine again.  This might be a little different dealing with the VA but in general, a uniformed or retired member cannot sue the government for anything related to duty or those executing it under that banner.  It is a side effect of having the government administer the care.  Everything is virtually free but your recourse when you are not pleased with services are diminished.

Further, this sounds very similar to the stories that you have been putting up as well - the doc fears governmental reprisal for actually helping the patient.  that makes me believe that there is something from the regulators that he is falling back on.  It is pathetic and sad.  The government does not belong in between you and your doctor to combat drug abuse.  The very idea is silly.


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## HUGGY (Mar 25, 2014)

FA_Q2 said:


> HUGGY said:
> 
> 
> > FA_Q2 said:
> ...



Again...  I'm no expert.  BUT there is a difference between suing and winning.  Using the legal system to get attention is a valid weapon.  There is no law or "implied contract" against FILING a claim in court.  The street one can take running for cover as in the path taken by the doctor is "two way".  I would even consider suing the DEA for conspiracy and collusion to defraud and cause harm to patients needing pain medication.  All you would need is a judge that has a close family relative that suffers needlessly at the hands of the system.  Costs could be defrayed by several patients combining their legal assault on the system under the same claim.  

If the pain is not going to go away there is no need or excuse to just "give up".   One thing about those that hide behind institutional cowardice is that they don't like the light of day exposing them.  I would hit the media hard also..get a reporter(preferably one that has personal ties to someone wronged by the system in regards to pain treatment) on the case.


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## FA_Q2 (Mar 25, 2014)

HUGGY said:


> FA_Q2 said:
> 
> 
> > HUGGY said:
> ...



Oh he is not giving up  I assure you that.  Like I said, he is currently appealing based on the idea that his medical practitioner is not looking out for his needs.  You bring up a really good point though.  We have a group here call the problem solvers that is part of a media arm.  They are VERY effective in getting asinine things changed through exposure.  I think Ill have to talk with him about something like that.  A little attention to the issue would be a healthy thing and almost certainly get changed.  I know that military members are a hot spot if they get screwed.  The public is NOT kind to anyone fucking over military, particularly wounded soldiers.


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## Kondor3 (Mar 25, 2014)

I have (casually) noticed a growing reluctance on the part of physicians, to prescribe pain medications; at least not without a separate pain-clinic analysis to back up their judgment.

And, of course, we see less of this with temporary conditions, and more of this with chronic ones.

I had a knee-rebuild in mid-2010, but fortunately, my ortho-guy was a huge believer in pain control, as an aid to recovery, starting with the morphine pump for the first 24-48 hours, and Norco 10-525's (or -325's?) for weeks afterward, eventually graduating to Norco 5-325's, then eventually off the things altogether... always telling me: "Get ahead of the pain. Don't wait until it gets out of control before you take a dose, or it'll be 10 times as bad." Doubly-true right before a brutal physical therapy session.

He was right, and, God bless 'im, not afraid to write a scrip for such, pretty much so long as you needed them - although he kept a good track of consumption, keeping an eye out for an over-dependency or side-effects...

But I've had family members who've had to fight like hell just to get a scrip for a modest pain-reliever over-and-above those available over the counter.


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## Delta4Embassy (Mar 25, 2014)

HUGGY said:


> Something that has drawn My attention over the last several years... maybe a decade or more is a personal observation that more and more people are living with crippling pain and less and less is being done about it by the mecical community.
> 
> 1.  It is true that about twenty years ago more or less there were many cases of pain killer overdoses reported.  At the time doctors were prescribing pills such as Oxycondon, Percocets and Morphine Sulphate and others somewhat loosely so the availability could be considered a factor in many of the deaths where pain killer was present.
> 
> ...



Likely a lot cheaper and certainly more effective using cannabis if prescribed narcotic pain-relievers. Safer too. Can't od on cannabis. Can very easily od and die on oxycontin and such.


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## specklebang (Mar 25, 2014)

HUGGY said:


> FA_Q2 said:
> 
> 
> > Well, as this thread has been revived, a neighbor of mine just ran into this problem as well.  He is a war vet and has been blown up in his convoy over a dozen times.  Quite obviously this has caused some permanent and painful side effects that require a rather constant dose of pain meds to control.  The really sad part is that he had to switch providers and that led to a gap in his treatment cycle where he was off medication entirely.  Normal people would not see this as a problem  just get more meds when he can but when he went to the doctor he was outright refused.  The reason, because there WERE NO DRUGS IN HIS SYSTEM when they administered the urine test.  Because HE WAS CLEAN!  If that is not the most asinine statement that I have ever heard.
> ...


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## oldfart (Mar 25, 2014)

Kondor3 said:


> I had a knee-rebuild in mid-2010, but fortunately, my ortho-guy was a huge believer in pain control, as an aid to recovery, starting with the morphine pump for the first 24-48 hours, and Norco 10-525's (or -325's?) for weeks afterward, eventually graduating to Norco 5-325's, then eventually off the things altogether... always telling me: "Get ahead of the pain. Don't wait until it gets out of control before you take a dose, or it'll be 10 times as bad." Doubly-true right before a brutal physical therapy session.



I can second that from personal experience.  There are some conditions where rehab is inevitably painfully enough to prevent anyone from reaching the level they need for maximum physical recovery.  I started rehab after my triple bypass about 20 hours after surgery and 14 hours after having the chest tubes removed.  Like most people who have good outcomes, had rehab been delayed 72 hours or so the rehab would have been much slower and harder.  It also helps if they add an anti-nausea medication to the drip.  If you don't get vertical within the first 24 hours it's going to be a long and painful recovery.  

PS  I was down to OTC acetaminophen by day five.  People get addicted to pain meds more often when they have inadequate pain relief in the first three days post-op.  By day four or five the pain can become chronic and that's when dependency really begins.  You are better off if you never get there in the first place.


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## HUGGY (Mar 29, 2014)

Well....  It has been almost two and a half years since my current bout with the EVIL Mr Pain with no direct help from a plethera of medical types doing everything in their power to avoid doing the one thing that had any chance of relieving some of my discomfort.  

So I go into a N. Seattle pain clinic with at best sceptical expectations.  

The assistants and doctors seemed interested in my problem but I have been tricked into believing someone cared several times.

The Main Doctor ended the preliminary visit with words tha astounded me.  

"After going over your charts and all of the supporting information I would like to try methadone or morphine extended release and see if you show any signs of improvement."

Huh?  Just that simple?  Just that direct.  No excuses about the DEA threatening to pull his ticket.  

I'm on day two and I can report that with a modest doseage of the methadone at least half my pain has been abated.

Now REALLY !!  Was THAT so damned difficult ???


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## Tresha91203 (Mar 29, 2014)

Yay Huggy! Finding a good team is the first but hardest step. Be sure to communicate completely as they can get nervous if they don't feel complete openness. In time, once they know you more, it gets much more comfortable and you'll feel less like some criminal. May it all be roses from here and your pain be eased. Xoxoxo


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## Crystalclear (Mar 29, 2014)

Just legalize marijuana and use it as painkiller instead of oxyocodone and other opioids


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## HUGGY (Mar 29, 2014)

Crystalclear said:


> Just legalize marijuana and use it as painkiller instead of oxyocodone and other opioids



I've smoked pot before in earlier years and frankly it just makes me stupid.  I don't like being spaced out.  I don't doubt that some people benefit from pot.  

For me ... I had an almost identical episode with the opposite leg and hip seven years ago and went through a whole gamit of pain killers with no real help until I was prescribed methadone.  It allowed me to sleep and get the rest and stillness neccesary to heal.  Since then that side of me has had zero problems.  It took me less than a week to ween myself off the methadone with zero after effects.

I'm not recommending methadone or any specific treatment to anyone.  It worked for me in the past and seems to be helping as I type this today.


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## oldfart (Mar 29, 2014)

HUGGY said:


> Well....  It has been almost two and a half years since my current bout with the EVIL Mr Pain with no direct help from a plethera of medical types doing everything in their power to avoid doing the one thing that had any chance of relieving some of my discomfort.
> 
> So I go into a N. Seattle pain clinic with at best sceptical expectations.
> 
> ...



Severe chronic pain has a cascade effect.  I hope it works in your favor now.  If you have less pain, you can move a bit more, depression improves (if you have chronic pain, you also have some degree of depression), and a virtuous cycle can set in.  I hope this is the start of a steady improvement for you!


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## FA_Q2 (Mar 29, 2014)

Crystalclear said:


> Just legalize marijuana and use it as painkiller instead of oxyocodone and other opioids



Pot is not a wonder drug and does not help pain nearly as effectively as opiates.  The side effects are certainly better and if it works then you should certainly use it over almost any other pain meds that almost all have worse side effects.  It is not as simple as just legalizing pot though.  Pot does not solve all or even most pain problems.

Huggy also stated N. Seattle.  I assume that he is talking about Seattle WA where pot IE legal.  And not simply medical pot either  pot is legal here period.


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## HUGGY (Mar 29, 2014)

oldfart said:


> HUGGY said:
> 
> 
> > Well....  It has been almost two and a half years since my current bout with the EVIL Mr Pain with no direct help from a plethera of medical types doing everything in their power to avoid doing the one thing that had any chance of relieving some of my discomfort.
> ...



I feel less pain already and can walk better..climb stairs better ... I'll control my weight better now that I can move better which will help my battle with type II diabetes.  I'll deal with the addictive component of the methadone as my body heals now that I can get the drastically needed rest when I sleep.  I am confident that as with the previous bout with injury and pain back in 2007 that I can now heal and get to a point where I won't need the pain medication.  It may even take surgery to correct my crushed discs and artheritus but I'll cross those bridges when I get to them.  This is a MOST welcome start to some recovery.  AND yes chronic grinding pain IS depressing.  This is a MOST welcome change for the better


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## Tresha91203 (Mar 29, 2014)

I'm rooting for you! Once you are able to heal then move more, the weight will get easier. That's a cascade affect you can look forward to. If you can make it through that plateau, I swear the metabolism changes and it gets MUCH easier. While I can't relate to the chronic pain personally, I can speak to the weight. I lost 90 lbs and have kept it off. I promise it isn't a lifetime struggle. You will find you move because you have pent up energy rather than having to force yourself to move. Small changes in diet are enough, one at a time, and much less daunting. If you ever want some simple satisfying suggestions to replace a vice, shoot me a message. I'd be happy to share the ones that worked for me and brainstorm ones that fit you.


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## HUGGY (Mar 30, 2014)

Tresha91203 said:


> I'm rooting for you! Once you are able to heal then move more, the weight will get easier. That's a cascade affect you can look forward to. If you can make it through that plateau, I swear the metabolism changes and it gets MUCH easier. While I can't relate to the chronic pain personally, I can speak to the weight. I lost 90 lbs and have kept it off. I promise it isn't a lifetime struggle. You will find you move because you have pent up energy rather than having to force yourself to move. Small changes in diet are enough, one at a time, and much less daunting. If you ever want some simple satisfying suggestions to replace a vice, shoot me a message. I'd be happy to share the ones that worked for me and brainstorm ones that fit you.



I've been dealing with the weight(I'm only thirty pounds above an ideal number) for a long time.  My doctors and I have designed an intelligent diet that works very well.  That lack of mobility was the key ingredient missing from making progress toward my ideal weight.

I don't mean to be mean but you live in Louisiana.  I ain't tryin to shovel no stinkin gumbo down my pie hole.. 

I eat roasted chicken breast ..whole grain breads ..mixed assortment of veggies.. basically as lean and balanced a diet as I can stand.  I have long ago cut out the "ice cream" and other snacks like commercial chips and the like already.

I am very certain that being able to use both legs will eat up calories.  I'm not going to participate in any marathons any time soon but just being able to go up the two flights of stairs to my rooms one step in front of the other rather than limping dragging my left leg along will be a HUGE improvement.


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## Tresha91203 (Mar 30, 2014)

HA! Gumbo wasn't on the list. I was going to tell you how to cook a rabbit! Working legs will do it too, though ... and sleep, which I am off to do. Sleep well, hopefully (are you able to get hours now, REM yet?)


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## HUGGY (Mar 30, 2014)

Tresha91203 said:


> HA! Gumbo wasn't on the list. I was going to tell you how to cook a rabbit! Working legs will do it too, though ... and sleep, which I am off to do. Sleep well, hopefully (are you able to get hours now, REM yet?)



Got REM.... Mon Chere'

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5HplYOYFWK8]What' the frequency Kenneth lyrics - YouTube[/ame]


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## HUGGY (Mar 30, 2014)

HUGGY said:


> gnarlylove said:
> 
> 
> > "None of your gods or fairies will help this condition"
> ...



*"I don't know how many times I must say that my condition IS NOT GOING TO HEAL."* 

I wrote something in the above post that is clearly in error.  In 2007 I experienced much the same problem as I am having now and the right leg nerves are not bothering me at all.  Obviously SOMETHING healed.


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## HUGGY (Mar 30, 2014)

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y6yUY7M9yfw]REM - Everybody Hurts Lyrics - YouTube[/ame]


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## strollingbones (Mar 30, 2014)

pain management is just hard to do....regulations have made a lot of doctors scared to manage pain to the full extent they can

i have a weird situation....i cannot take Vicodin or loritabs...never helps the pain and both give me a skin crawl reaction.....great feeling the narcotic skin crawl and pain...nice combo.....so i have to be moved up the pain killer scale to percodan's....that is an instant problem...

i am a zero pain person.....i pick that option and i do not back down from it...which resulted in being given morphine while in the hospital....that was a bit much and should not have been the first option...as i explained to my doctor the next day....i was given x number of strong pain killers for home...i have not taken any of them...i tend to like them a lot....and i have not been in pain....

i will save them for an ingrown toe nail...

the craziness of the fda kills me..you got the script records.....just figure out who is writing a 100 scripts a day for oxis.....we had that here for a while..doctor went off the deep end and decided to be a legal drug pusher..you would go by his office and there would be 50 or 60 cars.....his office as on a main road...it was flat obvious what was going on and it went on for years...but my oral surgeon has to file paperwork explaining why i get the percadons instead of the vicodins...


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## Esmeralda (Mar 30, 2014)

auditor0007 said:


> HUGGY said:
> 
> 
> > Something that has drawn My attention over the last several years... maybe a decade or more is a personal observation that more and more people are living with crippling pain and less and less is being done about it by the mecical community.
> ...



I can't imagine what it is  like to live with chronic pain. Certainly someone who is 82 should be allowed to  live out her life w/o pain.  

It is because of those who abuse pain medication that the doctors are so wary of giving out too much.  So sad.  If someone is truly in chronic pain, they should have access to what they need to ease that pain: it's that simple. 

Those who abuse pain killers are causing a lot of harm to people who really need the medication.


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## Luddly Neddite (Mar 30, 2014)

HUGGY said:


> Jarlaxle said:
> 
> 
> > oldfart said:
> ...



I also have chronic pain and understand how different it is from injury pain. There are times when you wonder if you're losing your mind. 

I had someone close to me with Stage 4 breast cancer that went on for several years. The pain from end stage cancer is horrendous and yet, right up until the moment of her death doctors were saying they didn't want her to become addicted or for the morphine to depress her breathing. 

WTF??

IMO, there are times when we need to forget about addiction. Even in non-terminal situations, if there is no end in sight for that horrible pain, isn't quality of life, the ability to actually function the more important factor?

We would not expect our pets to live with that kind of pain and yet we demand it of other human beings.


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## Tresha91203 (Mar 30, 2014)

The government needs to F'off in most of these cases. Arthritis, bulging discs, spurs, lack of cartilage and a ton of other issues can be medically PROVEN, yet they are still looking at someone's teeth ffs in order to cover their asses. That is because of the government and it is just wrong, IMO.



Esmeralda said:


> auditor0007 said:
> 
> 
> > [squote=HUGGY;8710360]Something that has drawn My attention over the last several years... maybe a decade or more is a personal observation that more and more people are living with crippling pain and less and less is being done about it by the mecical community.
> ...



I can't imagine what it is  like to live with chronic pain. Certainly someone who is 82 should be allowed to  live out her life w/o pain.  

It is because of those who abuse pain medication that the doctors are so wary of giving out too much.  So sad.  If someone is truly in chronic pain, they should have access to what they need to ease that pain: it's that simple. 

Those who abuse pain killers are causing a lot of harm to people who really need the medication.[/QUOTE]


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## HUGGY (Mar 30, 2014)

Note to self and others.

Forgot how strong methadone 10mgs are.  Take with food.  Took my morning pill with tylenol, ibu.. with just a small gulp of water.  after 20 min.. major waves of nausea.  All good now but I won't repeat THAT mistake ... .


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## HUGGY (May 23, 2014)

Well... It has been nearly two months and three weeks since I started this thread.

I'm two months into my enrollment into the pain specialty clinic that took over two years to get approval for.  The Doc prescribed methadone.

In spite all of the red flags for failure that were imposed on me by several so called experts in the field things are going much better than I could have hoped for.

My VW Bus transmission blew up three weeks ago and I found one in a wrecking yard which I had to pull myself on Monday.

There is NO way I could have done this job before I went on the pain meds.

I would have had to pay a mechanic at least a couple of thousand bucks to do the work.  Because I could once again be my own repairman and get out to find a tranny and pull it I only spent $200.  I did have to put off getting out to the wrecking yard several times because I felt too nauseous to do the work.  

The methadone is not without side effects which can be troublesome.

Spontaneous nausea leading to dry heaves on occasion..dry mouth..constipation.

The relief from crippling pain is certainly a fair and acceptable trade off.

Thinking back over the last two and a half years of agony I am still angry at the pain clinics I was sent to with no real help offered in mitigating the pain.

The advice I offer from this experience to others is DO NOT GIVE UP !!

Don't take NO from anyone if you are living with crippling pain.  

There ARE doctors that will take you and your affliction seriously. 

Be persistant !  Don't let a doctors fear be a sentence of pain for YOUR life !


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## sameech (May 27, 2014)

Tresha91203 said:


> I can't imagine what it is  like to live with chronic pain. Certainly someone who is 82 should be allowed to  live out her life w/o pain.
> 
> It is because of those who abuse pain medication that the doctors are so wary of giving out too much.  So sad.  If someone is truly in chronic pain, they should have access to what they need to ease that pain: it's that simple.
> 
> Those who abuse pain killers are causing a lot of harm to people who really need the medication.


[/QUOTE]

It is not that simple unfortunately.  I know my mom's doctor moved away from prescribing a lot of pain meds because he observed too many side-effects, especially in liver and kidney functions of his patients.  Looking at it more globally, it is a matter of which route one prefers to take I suppose.


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## Manonthestreet (May 27, 2014)

We are all potential drug dealers now....that shift in govt and medical outlook is why you have to fight to get decent pain meds.


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## whitehall (May 27, 2014)

I guess the FDA mandates Ad. agencies to list side effects of prescription medication advertised on TV and sometimes the side effects are shocking. How many "fatal events" can one person experience? Only one I expect. MD's are trained to medicate patients and sometimes medication takes the place of real medical treatment. It's rather shocking to surf the channels on cable and find ads for a prescription drug and on another channel a law firm advertising a law suit for legitimate use of the same drug.


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## oldfart (May 27, 2014)

HUGGY said:


> Well... It has been nearly two months and three weeks since I started this thread.
> 
> I'm two months into my enrollment into the pain specialty clinic that took over two years to get approval for.  The Doc prescribed methadone.
> 
> ...



I'm glad things are going well!  I know it sucks to have to fight for an ordinary life, but sometimes that is the job we have to do.  Kudos too to the new doctor.


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## Manonthestreet (May 28, 2014)

FLORIDA &#8212; A wheelchair-bound man, suffering from paralysis, severe chronic pain, and multiple sclerosis, was raided by masked, gun-wielding agents and ultimately sentenced to 25 years in prison for possessing a one-month supply of his own doctor-prescribed painkillers. Mandatory minimum sentencing laws enabled this to happen, and remain a dangerous threat to the freedom of Americans who have never been accused of a violent crime. Paralyzed man raided by SWAT, sentenced to 25 years for possessing his own medicine | Police State USA


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## HUGGY (Jan 27, 2015)

It's been a while since I have chimed in on this thread.

My life has become far more "doable" and rewarding with the pain management physician's help.  I have set new and interesting goals that will be realistically achievable.  Now that I can climb stairs more ably and lift more weight AND walk more than a few feet at a time..I'm up to about a 1/4 mile without too much discomfort.  I bought a new welder and will be getting back into repairs for $$$.  I'm outfitting my VW Camper Bus to be a mobile repar welding rig.  It's great to be back into the flow and not sitting around worrying what to do about the discomfort. 

The Methadone has been working well but it's effectiveness predictably over the months has become less helpful.  My regular doctor has shown me info about the methadone that is troubling so I will try the Morphine Sulphate for a while with my DRs permission.  I think it will be more manageable and as I become more immune to it's effects a "bump" in dosage won't be as dangerous as with the methadone.  

Anyway as I have indicated MY situation has greatly improved just like I had envisioned with some relief from the debilitating pain.

I wish any of you that have had a similar problem arise in your life to have patience!  Don't give up.  Be persistent! There IS help to be had.  They just make it hard to get engaged with it.  Once you are signed up and prove to be responsible at least I have had good results.


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## Tresha91203 (Feb 4, 2015)

I'm so glad you are doing well! (Hug) Thanks for the update.


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## HUGGY (Feb 26, 2015)

Tresha91203 said:


> I'm so glad you are doing well! (Hug) Thanks for the update.



WAS doing well.

My primary doctor convinced me that to get extra pain meds for those occasional break out chronic pain occurrences and for relief from the pain from occasional Kidney stones and other injuries which I as a mechanic am constantly doing to myself...not even counting getting bounced around by 200lbs of pitbulls I need for protection of the property I live in and guard.... his advice was to accomplish"The Best Medicine" to have one physician be in charge of ALL pain medications.

On this advice I sort of fired my pain specialist, who *only *prescribed for chronic pain meds, and in the process a parting gift. 84 pills of 15mg morphine and a see ya later.

I started taking the Morphine ER at 15mg every 8 hours for this month starting on the 3rd.  I was taking 10mg of methadone every 12 hours for almost a year but the effects had nearly completely become ineffective.  My pain specialist has a policy of adjusting pain meds once a year.  That was another reason to push him out of the picture.  Since around October the small dose of methadone that had worked pretty well last spring, had lost most of its pain relief effects.  The one year waiting period as it turned out was draconian.

The regimen of seeing the pain doctor once a month just to get refills is kind of odd in that there was never any discussion.  The dude just typed on his computer while I sat in the same room speechless. This past three weeks have been HELL.  Methadone is ten times stronger than morphine.  I SHOULD have been prescribed at least 60mg morphine every 8 hrs just to have the same pain relief as when I started the methadone a year ago. one quarter of that dose barely registers.  I am stuck back in my room with the dogs again unable to perform even the most modest physical tasks.  

I see my primary Physician with all the bright ideas on Friday.  He has little to no experience with prescribing pain meds to those with chronic pain.  I believe he is genuinely interested in learning how to take on this responsibility but I fear I am his first patient in that area of medicine.  He kinda pussed out in insisting the other doctor specialist do the prescribing of the morphine transition from methadone.  If this new doctor, that promised me "good Medicine", stabs me in the back with ANY dumb ass excuse that HE isn't the expert and we will just have too trust the prescription from the a-hole that KNEW he had screwed me over I just don't know what I will do.

I got SO much accomplished up till late last year with the help of the methadone.  I have been in agony for just over three weeks now.  I can't even take the garbage down the stairs to the dumpster.  It is just piling up in big black plastic bags on the next landing down from my third floor residence.

So no..as of late life sucks again.  I will know on Friday morning if my life will be manageable and reasonably pain free again.


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## Tresha91203 (Feb 26, 2015)

I am sorry to hear that, Huggy. I'd be pretty clear to your PCP that his advice got you here. I hope he steps up at least until you find another pain mgmt doc to take you. ♥


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## Delta4Embassy (Feb 26, 2015)

HUGGY said:


> Something that has drawn My attention over the last several years... maybe a decade or more is a personal observation that more and more people are living with crippling pain and less and less is being done about it by the mecical community.
> 
> 1.  It is true that about twenty years ago more or less there were many cases of pain killer overdoses reported.  At the time doctors were prescribing pills such as Oxycondon, Percocets and Morphine Sulphate and others somewhat loosely so the availability could be considered a factor in many of the deaths where pain killer was present.
> 
> ...



Why cure something if you can make a patient dependent on symptom-relief the rest of their lives?

"A patient cured, is a customer lost."


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## HUGGY (Feb 26, 2015)

Delta4Embassy said:


> HUGGY said:
> 
> 
> > Something that has drawn My attention over the last several years... maybe a decade or more is a personal observation that more and more people are living with crippling pain and less and less is being done about it by the mecical community.
> ...



There are many forms of surgeries that have a low probability of success with the kind of spinal disc injury and degenerative arthritis that cause my discomfort. 

I can assure you I am on no high horse(pardon the pun) in regards to the difference between a life of crippling pain and having a much more productive and desirable existence when the pain is abated with chemical intervention. 

I am not interested in pleasing the indifferent sensibilities of someone that doesn't walk gingerly in my shoes or a doctor who  is not vested in the responsibility to take me on as a potential black mark on his or her medical safety record.


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## HUGGY (Feb 26, 2015)

Tresha91203 said:


> I am sorry to hear that, Huggy. I'd be pretty clear to your PCP that his advice got you here. I hope he steps up at least until you find another pain mgmt doc to take you. ♥



Hopefully my most recent primary care provider will be the single stop for pain medication he was lobbying for which put me in this position.  I will know for sure tomorrow If following his advice was a wise move.

I would only go back to a doctor that specialized in strictly chronic pain management if my primary care provider's plan fails to live up to his promise to do the same job as the specialist and have the sole authority to fill in the gaps with breakthrough pain and other pain issues.  I have a substantial list of pain related issues including horrible tooth pain, I've lost more than half of them, to frequent Kidney stones, bruises and abrasions as a mechanic that used to heal almost immediately when in my youth that seem to hurt  a lot more and take a lot longer to heal. That and my old bones get knocked around inadvertently by my huge pit bulls.  It SUCKS getting old and refusing to just sit in a chair waiting to croak!


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## Tresha91203 (May 31, 2015)

Checking on you, Huggy ...

Have you got a workable management plan, yet? 

My mom's new issue is apparently a manufacturing hiccup with her Avinza. Thankfully, just an inconvenience and not more serious. She has to drive 20 minutes further to fill that Rx. Expected to be resolved next month.


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## HUGGY (May 31, 2015)

Tresha91203 said:


> Checking on you, Huggy ...
> 
> *Have you got a workable management plan, yet? *
> 
> My mom's new issue is apparently a manufacturing hiccup with her Avinza. Thankfully, just an inconvenience and not more serious. She has to drive 20 minutes further to fill that Rx. Expected to be resolved next month.



In a word, yes.

My general provider, whom I had already established a high value of trust and a great relationship with, has taken over responsibility for all of the pain management issues I have been dealing with.  He has been absolutely good for his words and has made me work less than the specialist to prove I am capable of much of the responsibility to not abuse the prescribed medications.  At this time I am getting three scripts at a time that last three months.  My daily med intake for chronic pain is 90 mg of morphine spread out evenly over 24 hours.  I also have an emergency back up script of Oxycodone  5mg which I can take as needed when I have unusual discomfort that breaks past the morphine.

I am living better in the last 6 months than I have for several years.  For some unexplained reason the tolerance to the morphine hasn't really been a problem.  It is still just about as effective as it was when I started it back in January.  Maybe when you take into account that I am much more active than before when I couldn't move very well it is just possible that the over all pain is less.  For whatever reason I am grateful of the benefits of the meds and my life is much improved.

To any lucky enough to get into a quality pain specialty clinic or have a provider that gives a damn and wants to take responsibility to prescribe pain medications I do have this one piece of advice.  From my experience with methadone as the starter drug in the specialty clinic I would suggest that you attempt to get morphine instead.  It is much easier and safer to regulate dosage.  Comparing the methadone in it's drop off effects or my body's tolerance to it the methadone was about maybe 25% as effective after 6 months.  I can't say for sure but There HAS to be SOME loss of effect of the morphine but I'll guess it couldn't be more than 25%.  

So thanks for checking in on me.  I hope your mom has Drs that care as much as mine do.  

Sean


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## Tresha91203 (May 31, 2015)

HUGGY said:


> Tresha91203 said:
> 
> 
> > Checking on you, Huggy ...
> ...



Hmm. I don't think you are going to have that problem with the morphine.  My mom has been at the same dose of her primary pain med for 2 years. I'm 99% sure it is morphine based (avinza). Her breakthrough meds (roxicodone) go down for a bit, then up for a bit. The more mobile she is, the less breakthrough she needs.

I am glad to hear things have turned around for you and that you are able to actually live with much more comfort.


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## oldfart (Jun 1, 2015)

HUGGY said:


> Tresha91203 said:
> 
> 
> > Checking on you, Huggy ...
> ...



Glad to hear you are doing better.  Wish you all the best.  Chronic pain sucks, and staying on the program (especially the at home exercises on your own) can be a drag.


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## waltky (Dec 16, 2016)

Big Pharma - anything for a buck...





*US Drug Makers Push Profitable, But Unproven, Opioid Solution*
_December 15, 2016 - Pilloried for their role in the epidemic of prescription painkiller abuse, U.S. drug makers are aggressively pushing their remedy to the problem: a new generation of harder-to-manipulate opioids that have racked up billions in sales, even though there's little proof they reduce rates of overdoses or deaths._


> More than prescriptions are at stake. Critics worry the drug makers' nationwide lobbying campaign is distracting from more productive solutions and delaying crucial efforts to steer physicians away from prescription opioids - addictive pain medications involved in the deaths of more than 165,000 Americans since 2000. “If we've learned one lesson from the last 20 years on opioids it's that these products have very, very high inherent risks,” said Dr. Caleb Alexander, co-director of Johns Hopkins University's Center for Drug Safety and Effectiveness. “My concern is that they'll contribute to a perception that there is a safe opioid, and there's no such thing as a fully safe opioid.”
> 
> The latest drugs - known as abuse-deterrent formulations, or ADFs - are generally harder to crush or dissolve, which the drug makers tout as making them difficult to snort or inject. But they still are vulnerable to manipulation and potentially addictive when simply swallowed. National data from an industry-sponsored tracking system also show drug abusers quickly drop the reformulated drugs in favor of older painkillers or heroin. In the last two years, pharmaceutical companies have made a concerted under-the-radar push for bills benefiting the anti-abuse opioids in statehouses and in Congress, where proposed legislation would require the Food and Drug Administration to replace older opioids with the new drugs.
> 
> ...


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