# Good thing Britain doesn't have the 2nd Amendment and banned guns.....these criminals would be getting shot all over the place.



## 2aguy (Sep 23, 2022)

Britain doesn't have the 2nd Amendment.....so criminals run free......if you are a citizen, you are at their mercy and if you go to far in trying to protect yourself....you will go to prison....

Leftists in the U.S. are destroying our police and releasing violent criminals...

Leftists in the U.K. seem to be doing the same thing....

Leftists are gonna leftist.......and innocent people don't matter...


*Public safety is said to be one of the foundational principles of the British justice system. Today, that premise seems shaky at best. Take the case of Joshua Carney. In February, authorities paroled the Welshman after he had served part of a jail sentence for committing a series of burglaries in 2017. Carney has 47 prior convictions. *

*Less than a week after his release, he forced his way into a Cardiff house, locking a terrified woman inside. When her 14-year-old daughter heard her distress, she came downstairs. Carney proceeded to rape both the mother and the daughter. Last week, Carney was jailed for “life,” which means he’ll be up for parole in ten years.*


*It feels like the U.K. has emerged from its Covid-induced slumber to find that crime itself has been decriminalized. Consider the data for less serious offenses, such as burglary. 

Of the 21,000 neighborhoods in England and Wales that suffered at least one burglary in the past three years, police failed to solve even a single case in 17,000 of those areas—a failure rate of 84 percent.*









						Anarchy in the U.K. | City Journal
					

With violent crime on the rise, British police are losing the trust of the public.




					www.city-journal.org
				




So....I ask this to vagabond and captain caveman....

*Is it a better outcome that this woman and her 14 year old daughter were violently raped........instead of having a gun to kill the rapist?

Recorded crime in England and Wales is at a 20-year high, and just 6 percent of cases resulted in anyone being charged or issued a summons in 2021–2022—a 10 percent drop from 2014–2015.*

*With the streets of our major cities looking like scenes from The Purge, the public increasingly senses that the police have given up. According to recent data, only 57 percent of Londoners have confidence that the Met can be relied upon.*


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## Calypso Jones (Sep 23, 2022)

This isn't going to stop until brit politicians families start getting raped by these folk.


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## otto105 (Sep 23, 2022)

2aguy said:


> Britain doesn't have the 2nd Amendment.....so criminals run free......if you are a citizen, you are at their mercy and if you go to far in trying to protect yourself....you will go to prison....
> 
> Leftists in the U.S. are destroying our police and releasing violent criminals...
> 
> ...


How many gun crimes and murders from guns to they have in country compared to the US?


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## 2aguy (Sep 23, 2022)

otto105 said:


> How many gun crimes and murders from guns to they have in country compared to the US?



Before they banned guns they had a low crime rate…..now, after
Banning guns their gun crimes are going up.


You think you have a clever argument because Britain, in the past had low crime….but you fail because crime isn’t a static activity….their crime rates are going up because their welfare state has created more and more fatherless homes, and their immigration policies have brought in 3rd world males who now run the British drug gangs…..both groups are now driving the increase in violence.

So their gun control laws are doing nothing to keep crime in check and are simply keeping good people defenseless in the face of more and more aggressive and violent criminals.


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## 2aguy (Sep 23, 2022)

otto105 said:


> How many gun crimes and murders from guns to they have in country compared to the US?



Now you answer the question….

Is it better that this woman and her daughter were violently raped by this criminal rather than the mother or daughter shooting and killing the criminal?

Which outcome do you prefer?


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## otto105 (Sep 23, 2022)

2aguy said:


> Before they banned guns they had a low crime rate…..now, after
> Banning guns their gun crimes are going up.
> 
> 
> ...


So, they went from 3 per year to 5 and you're crowing about?

Answer the question asked.


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## 2aguy (Sep 23, 2022)

otto105 said:


> So, they went from 3 per year to 5 and you're crowing about?
> 
> Answer the question asked.



I did…. You won’t answer my questions…you coward


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## otto105 (Sep 23, 2022)

2aguy said:


> I did…. You won’t answer my questions…you coward


I would rather have a country which doesn't have a gun violence rate 646X that of the UK.

Gun deaths in America: how many people killed in US compared to UK and rest of world


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## The Duke (Sep 23, 2022)

2aguy said:


> Britain doesn't have the 2nd Amendment.....so criminals run free......if you are a citizen, you are at their mercy and if you go to far in trying to protect yourself....you will go to prison....
> 
> Leftists in the U.S. are destroying our police and releasing violent criminals...
> 
> ...


Not our country, but that's a good case for public hanging within 2 weeks after conviction.


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## otto105 (Sep 23, 2022)

2aguy said:


> I did…. You won’t answer my questions…you coward


I would also not want the state to force either of those crime victims to carry the rapists offspring to term.

But you do while decrying the rapes and therefore support the rapist.


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## The Duke (Sep 23, 2022)

otto105 said:


> I would also not want the state to force either of those crime victims to carry the rapists offspring to term.
> 
> But you do while decrying the rapes and therefore support the rapist.


I say he should be hanged publicly right now.


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## 2aguy (Sep 23, 2022)

otto105 said:


> I would rather have a country which doesn't have a gun violence rate 646X that of the UK.
> 
> Gun deaths in America: how many people killed in US compared to UK and rest of world



Now you have


otto105 said:


> I would rather have a country which doesn't have a gun violence rate 646X that of the UK.
> 
> Gun deaths in America: how many people killed in US compared to UK and rest of world




Wrong......you aren't even close


 10,000 as an average number of gun murders in the United states each year....currently it is higher because in 2015 the democrat party decided to attack our police forces and they started releasing the most violent criminals, in particular gun felons, over and over again............some years more, some years less....later we can even bump that number up...but (spoiler), it won't change the underlying truth...



.10,000 gun murders a year X 246..... 



We get?



2,460,000 gun murders....



*246 years....and we average out to 2,460,000 gun murders........



European mass murder 1939-1945......

15 million innocent men, women and children....*

More people murdered in 6 years than 246 years of gun murder in the U.S......

If you are generous and give 20,000 as the average gun murder number in the U.S per year....and that is way over the average......

4.92 million murdered with guns in the U.S. in 246 years....

*Then.....*

According to the Centers for Disease Control, Americans use their legal guns 1.1 million times a year for self defense....against rape, robbery, murder, beatings, stabbings, and even mass public shootings....

1.1 million times a year......in 15 years you have used guns to save lives more than the 15 million the Europeans murdered in 6 years...

The vast majority of the murdered were innocent men, women and children.....not collateral from the socialist war....simply murdered by their governments.....



Nope...........not freaking giving up our guns cause anti-gun fanatics tell us to trust the government....



As to the 15,000,000 million number...the source...

=======

NAZI GENOCIDE AND MASS MURDER



*German socialists


By genocide, the murder of hostages, reprisal raids, forced labor, "euthanasia," starvation, exposure, medical experiments, and terror bombing, and in the concentration and death camps, the Nazis murdered from 15,003,000 to 31,595,000 people, most likely 20,946,000 men, women, handicapped, aged, sick, prisoners of war, forced laborers, camp inmates, critics, homosexuals, Jews, Slavs, Serbs, Germans, Czechs, Italians, Poles, French, Ukrainians, and many others. Among them 1,000,000 were children under eighteen years of age.1*

And none of these monstrous figures even include civilian and military combat or war-deaths

http://[URL='http://hawaii.edu/powe...]http://hawaii.edu/powerkills/NAZIS.CHAP1.HTM[/URL]


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## 2aguy (Sep 23, 2022)

otto105 said:


> I would also not want the state to force either of those crime victims to carry the rapists offspring to term.
> 
> But you do while decrying the rapes and therefore support the rapist.




So......you want to kill the innocent baby?  Makes sense, for leftists, murder is a ready made solution to most problems...as long as the victim is an innocent human.


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## 2aguy (Sep 23, 2022)

otto105 said:


> I would also not want the state to force either of those crime victims to carry the rapists offspring to term.
> 
> But you do while decrying the rapes and therefore support the rapist.




And, coward, you still didn't answer the question.....

Which do you prefer.....the woman and 14 year old daughter are raped by this repeat criminal....or the mother or daughter uses a gun to shoot and kill their rapist?

Why won't you answer that question?


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## otto105 (Sep 23, 2022)

2aguy said:


> Now you have
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks for bringing stupid into the discussion.


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## 2aguy (Sep 23, 2022)

otto105 said:


> I would rather have a country which doesn't have a gun violence rate 646X that of the UK.
> 
> Gun deaths in America: how many people killed in US compared to UK and rest of world




Also, the majority of those killed in gun murder in the U.S. 70-80% of the victims are criminals...not innocent people.  Of the other 20-30% of the victims, the vast majority are the friends, family and associates of criminals hit by mistake.....

Meanwhile, the 15 million people murdered between 1936-1945 in Europe after they banned guns......in order to keep their citizens safe.........they were not criminals, they were innocent men, women and children..........


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## 2aguy (Sep 23, 2022)

otto105 said:


> Thanks for bringing stupid into the discussion.




You won't answer the question and you won't address the mass murder of 15 million innocent men, women and children in just a 6 year period.....

Of the two of us, you are the stupid one....


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## otto105 (Sep 23, 2022)

2aguy said:


> And, coward, you still didn't answer the question.....
> 
> Which do you prefer.....the woman and 14 year old daughter are raped by this repeat criminal....or the mother or daughter uses a gun to shoot and kill their rapist?
> 
> Why won't you answer that question?


I did already.

You want your guns and the crime that come with them.


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## otto105 (Sep 23, 2022)

2aguy said:


> You won't answer the question and you won't address the mass murder of 15 million innocent men, women and children in just a 6 year period.....
> 
> Of the two of us, you are the stupid one....


That happened in the UK?


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## 2aguy (Sep 23, 2022)

otto105 said:


> I did already.
> 
> You want your guns and the crime that come with them.




No...you didn't.....liar.


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## 2aguy (Sep 23, 2022)

otto105 said:


> That happened in the UK?




Across the pond, and Americans, with guns, stopped the mass murder and kept the British from having to send their Jews and others to death in the German socialist death camps.


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## otto105 (Sep 23, 2022)

2aguy said:


> Also, the majority of those killed in gun murder in the U.S. 70-80% of the victims are criminals...not innocent people.  Of the other 20-30% of the victims, the vast majority are the friends, family and associates of criminals hit by mistake.....
> 
> Meanwhile, the 15 million people murdered between 1936-1945 in Europe after they banned guns......in order to keep their citizens safe.........they were not criminals, they were innocent men, women and children..........



Additional figures from the CDC show there were 19,384 firearm-related homicides in the US in 2020 – 646 times greater than the UK which recorded 30 murders and manslaughters in the year ending 31 March 2020, according to the Office for National Statistics.

Why do you want to murder 19,354 more people in the UK?


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## 2aguy (Sep 23, 2022)

otto105 said:


> Additional figures from the CDC show there were 19,384 firearm-related homicides in the US in 2020 – 646 times greater than the UK which recorded 30 murders and manslaughters in the year ending 31 March 2020, according to the Office for National Statistics.
> 
> Why do you want to murder 19,354 more people in the UK?




Which is why I also used 20,000 a year to cover years where the number of gun murders was above average.......and even with that increase, over 246 years, it doesn't even come close to the 15 million murdered across Europe...after they banned guns......

and, of course, gun crime in the U.K. is increasing...which is the point.  Their criminals are becoming more and more violent, and their gun laws are not stopping them.  The British police state they can't stop the increasing flow of illegal guns into their country.......

And you still didn't answer the question....

Which do you prefer, that the woman and her 14 year old daughter were brutally raped, or that they use a gun to shoot and kill the rapist?

Why won't you answer that question?


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## otto105 (Sep 23, 2022)

2aguy said:


> Which is why I also used 20,000 a year to cover years where the number of gun murders was above average.......and even with that increase, over 246 years, it doesn't even come close to the 15 million murdered across Europe...after they banned guns......
> 
> and, of course, gun crime in the U.K. is increasing...which is the point.  Their criminals are becoming more and more violent, and their gun laws are not stopping them.  The British police state they can't stop the increasing flow of illegal guns into their country.......
> 
> ...


Why are you answering a question about gun violence and crime with war statics. Your crime ones don't support your fetish with guns?


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## 2aguy (Sep 23, 2022)

otto105 said:


> Why are you answering a question about gun violence and crime with war statics. Your crime ones don't support your fetish with guns?




Not war statistics.....the 15 million people murdered were not casualties of the war.  These people lived in European countries that did what you wanted...they banned guns, and 15 years after banning guns, they murdered 15 million people...more people murdered in 6 years than in 246 years of gun murder in the U.S.....

Now....

why don't you answer my question.....your cowardice is showing....

Which do you prefer, the woman and her 14 year old daughter brutally raped by a repeat criminal offender, or they use a gun to shoot and kill the criminal?

Why won't you answer that question?


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## Vagabond63 (Sep 24, 2022)

2aguy said:


> or they use a gun to shoot and kill the criminal?


You have a fixation on KILLING people with guns, why is that?


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## Vagabond63 (Sep 24, 2022)

2aguy said:


> Across the pond, and Americans, with guns, stopped the mass murder and kept the British from having to send their Jews and others to death in the German socialist death camps.


That was the Russians, more than the Americans. Sadly the Nazis in America took over the NRA and gradually evolved into the current GOP.


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## otto105 (Sep 24, 2022)

2aguy said:


> Not war statistics.....the 15 million people murdered were not casualties of the war.  These people lived in European countries that did what you wanted...they banned guns, and 15 years after banning guns, they murdered 15 million people...more people murdered in 6 years than in 246 years of gun murder in the U.S.....
> 
> Now....
> 
> ...


Sure, the  NAZIs again. 

Now what relevance does that fascist regime from history have to do with gun crime in the UK?


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## 2aguy (Sep 24, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> You have a fixation on KILLING people with guns, why is that?



No, I have a fixation on innocent people being able to live their lives without being raped, robbed, beaten, stabbed or murdered......having the means to stop that....


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## 2aguy (Sep 24, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> That was the Russians, more than the Americans. Sadly the Nazis in America took over the NRA and gradually evolved into the current GOP.




No....that is another leftist lie.....the Russians were losing to the Germans, Bigly, until the United States entered the war, re-supplied the Russians since they lost the vast majority of their war material when they staged it for the invasion against Germany, but the Germans invaded first capturing or destroying their stock piles, and Stalin murdered his best and most competent military commanders during the great purges.....the U.S. also distracted the Germans during their Russian campaign at least twice, giving the Russians breathing room to regroup....

The socialists in the U.S. are the democrats, not the NRA or the GOP...


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## 2aguy (Sep 24, 2022)

otto105 said:


> Sure, the  NAZIs again.
> 
> Now what relevance does that fascist regime from history have to do with gun crime in the UK?




Answer my question.........

Which do you prefer, that the mother and her daughter are brutally raped by a repeatedly released violent offender, or they are able to use a gun to shoot and kill him?


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## Vagabond63 (Sep 24, 2022)

2aguy said:


> No, I have a fixation on innocent people being able to live their lives without being raped, robbed, beaten, stabbed or murdered......having the means to stop that....


Most people in Europe manage to live their lives without needing guns at all, it's called civilisation. From what you preach, America seems to be a barbarous country full of murderers, rapists, thieves, etc. that requires everyone to carry guns to protect themselves, sad.


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## Vagabond63 (Sep 24, 2022)

2aguy said:


> No....that is another leftist lie.....the Russians were losing to the Germans,


Certainly when the Nazis invaded in June 1941 and the Soviets lost a lot of garrison troops and outdated equipment, but the Nazi offensive ran out of steam (much like Putin's in the Ukraine) and on the 5th December 1941 the Soviets launched a major counter attack and started pushing the Nazis back on their own. American aid didn't start flowing until October 1941, so had minimal effect until 1942.


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## Vagabond63 (Sep 24, 2022)

2aguy said:


> Which do you prefer, that the mother and her daughter are brutally raped by a repeatedly released violent offender, or they are able to use a gun to shoot and* kill him?*


There you go again, "shoot and KILL him", why does every criminal have to be killed in your world?


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## 2aguy (Sep 24, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> Most people in Europe manage to live their lives without needing guns at all, it's called civilisation. From what you preach, America seems to be a barbarous country full of murderers, rapists, thieves, etc. that requires everyone to carry guns to protect themselves, sad.




You have lived post World War 2 for a few decades now, but life in Europe is changing....your welfare states have created more and more fatherless children and they are turning to drugs, gangs and violence ..... and you imported 3rd world males who do not appreciate British culture, British law, and do not fear the British police....


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## 2aguy (Sep 24, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> Certainly when the Nazis invaded in June 1941 and the Soviets lost a lot of garrison troops and outdated equipment, but the Nazi offensive ran out of steam (much like Putin's in the Ukraine) and on the 5th December 1941 the Soviets launched a major counter attack and started pushing the Nazis back on their own. American aid didn't start flowing until October 1941, so had minimal effect until 1942.




Wrong.....


*A second mention is in the Memoirs of Nikita Khrushchev, who wrote, "If the U.S. had not helped us, we would not have won the war.  No one talks about this officially, and Stalin never, I think, left any traces of his opinion, but I can say that he expressed this view several times in conversations with me."  A third appraisal comes from Marshal Georgy Zhukov, who in a reported private conversation in 1963 said, "It cannot be denied that the Americans sent us material without which we could not have formed our resources or continued the war."

Read more: Lend-Lease: How the US Kept the Soviets Afloat in World War II
Follow us: @AmericanThinker on Twitter | AmericanThinker on Facebook*
*Lend-Lease: How the US Kept the Soviets Afloat in World War II

=========


Russia's D-Day message: You're welcome

It’s true that Russia had to contend with more German units than the Allies did in France. This ignores the fact that the Allies had fought the Nazis in North Africa and up the Italian peninsula for several years prior to D-Day, not to mention the naval warfare that the US and UK conducted. Furthermore, even after the Soviets allied with the US, UK, and Free France, they pointedly refused to declare war on Japan, where the US and the Commonwealth were committing massive forces against Hitler’s ally. Stalin declared war on Japan only after the bombings in Hiroshima and Nagasaki in order to demand territorial gains.*

----------

*Only after Hitler invaded the Soviet Union did Stalin and the communists begin shrieking about a “second front,” ignoring the fact that the Brits had been fighting one in North Africa. (The US joined that front soon after Pearl Harbor.) *

*The Italian campaign tied up a number of German units as well, especially after Mussolini ran out of Rome and the Italians switched sides. *
=========





> This article looks at the Soviets during world war 2, their intention to invade the west, which was beaten by Germany invading two weeks early and why they lost so quickly at first...
> 
> Russia In World War 2
> 
> ...






> In the initial hours after the German attack commenced, Stalin hesitated, wanting to ensure that the German attack was sanctioned by Hitler, rather than the unauthorized action of a rogue general.[SUP][53][/SUP] Accounts by Nikita Khrushchev and Anastas Mikoyan claim that, after the invasion, Stalin retreated to his dacha in despair for several days and did not participate in leadership decisions.[SUP][54][/SUP] However, some documentary evidence of orders given by Stalin contradicts these accounts, leading some historians to speculate that Khrushchev's account is inaccurate.[SUP][55][/SUP]
> In the first three weeks of the invasion, attempting to defend against large German advances, the Soviet Union suffered 750,000 casualties, and lost 10,000 tanks and 4,000 aircraft.[SUP][56][/SUP] In July 1940, Stalin completely reorganized the Soviet military, placing himself directly in charge of several military organizations, which gave him complete control of his country's entire war effort; more control than any other leader in World War II.[SUP][57][/SUP]
> A pattern soon emerged where Stalin embraced the Red Army's strategy of conducting multiple offensives, while the Germans soon overran each of the resulting small newly gained grounds, dealing the Soviets severe casualties.[SUP][58][/SUP] The most notable example of this was the Battle of Kiev, where over 600,000 Soviet troops were quickly killed, captured or had gone missing.[SUP][58][/SUP]
> By the end of 1941, the Soviet military had suffered 4.3 million casualties[SUP][59][/SUP] and the Germans had captured 3.0 million Soviet prisoners, 2.0 million of which would die in German captivity by February 1942.[SUP][56][/SUP] German forces had advanced c. 1,700 kilometers, and maintained a linearly-measured front of 3,000 kilometers.[SUP][60][/SUP] The Red Army put up fierce resistance during the war's early stages. Even so, according to Glantz, they were plagued by an ineffective defense doctrine against well-trained and experienced German forces, despite possessing some modern Soviet equipment such as theKV-1 and T-34 tanks.
> Click to expand...





> At the same time, worried by the possibility of American support after their entry into the war following the Attack on Pearl Harbor, and a potential Anglo-American invasion on the Western Front in 1942 (which would not actually happen until 1944), Hitler shifted his primary goal from an immediate victory in the East, to the more long-term goal of securing the southern Soviet Union to protect oil fields vital to the long-term German war effort.[SUP][69[/SUP]





> The Germans did attempt an encirclement attack at Kursk, which was successfully repulsed by the Soviets[SUP][78][/SUP] after Hitler canceled the offensive, in part, because of the Allied invasion of Sicily,[SUP][79][/SUP] though the Soviets suffered over 800,000 casualties.[SUP][80][/SUP]


Yeah, it is hard to understand the Soviets...



also from wikipedia on the Red Army...


Red Army - Wikipedia


> The unprepared Soviet forces suffered much damage in the field because of mediocre officers, partial mobilization, an incomplete reorganization and mainly because they were arranged to attack Central Europe, and not to defend Soviet territory.[SUP][39][/SUP] The hasty pre-war forces expansion and the over-promotion of inexperienced officers (owing to the purging of experienced officers) favored the Wehrmacht in combat.[SUP][39][/SUP]


And another great mistake by Stalin that almost lost the war for the Soviets...



> *Purges*
> 
> _Further information: Case of Trotskyist Anti-Soviet Military Organization_
> The late 1930s saw the so-called _Purges of the Red Army Cadres_, which occurred concurrently with Stalin's Great Purge of Soviet society. In 1936 and 1937, at the orders of Stalin, thousands of Red Army officers were dismissed from their commands. The purges had the objective of cleansing the Red Army of the "politically unreliable elements", mainly among higher-ranking officers. This inevitably provided a convenient pretext for the settling of personal vendettas or to eliminate competition by officers seeking the same command. Many army, corps, and divisional commanders were sacked, most were imprisoned or sent to labor camps; others were executed. Among the victims was the Red Army's primary military theorist, Marshal Mikhail Tukhachevsky, perceived by Stalin as a potential political rival. Officers who remained soon found all of their decisions being closely examined by political officers, even in mundane matters such as record-keeping and field training exercises.[SUP][72][/SUP] An atmosphere of fear and unwillingness to take the initiative soon pervaded the Red Army; suicide rates among junior officers rose to record levels.[SUP][72][/SUP] Most historians believe that the purges significantly impaired the combat capabilities of the Red Army. However, the extent of the consequential damage attributable to them is still debated.
> ...


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## 2aguy (Sep 24, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> There you go again, "shoot and KILL him", why does every criminal have to be killed in your world?




He might not die....and which would you prefer, that the woman and daughter are brutally raped by the repeatedly releases violent criminal or they shoot him....?  To stop the attack or merely get lucky, point the gun at him and he runs away to rape a woman who doesn't have a gun?


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## 2aguy (Sep 24, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> Certainly when the Nazis invaded in June 1941 and the Soviets lost a lot of garrison troops and outdated equipment, but the Nazi offensive ran out of steam (much like Putin's in the Ukraine) and on the 5th December 1941 the Soviets launched a major counter attack and started pushing the Nazis back on their own. American aid didn't start flowing until October 1941, so had minimal effect until 1942.




You don't know what you are talking about even on this issue....without the U.S. the Soviet Union would have been conquered by the Germans....

*The Germans sustained MASSIVE casualties on the various fronts in which they were compelled to engage the Americans. You see, there was this fellow named General George Patton you may have heard of him whose genius and aggressive tactics gave the German high command many nightmares.
Not only did the Germans have to contend with Patton, but America’s presence meant that Germany’s own greatest General, Erwin Rommel, and millions of his tenacious fighting forces were tied up in Africa and later Italy and France. Had it not been for Americas entry into the war, Britain would have been out of the picture as well. Rommel’s armies would thus have been fighting and tipping the balance against what would have been an under-supplied Red Army on the Eastern front.
------
Oh, and by the way need we remind of the utter devastation wreaked upon German industry and German civilians by the “Bomber Boys” of the US & UK Air Forces? Wave upon wave upon wave of Allied heavy bombers mercilessly banged Germany throughout 1943 and 1944. ‘Ya think’ all of that urban destruction, railroad-bombing, refinery bombing, factory bombing, deliberate dam-busting and straight-up primitive warfare might have hindered the German war effort, just a tad? Maybe
-----
*
*Certainly at key times western allied intervention did much to alleviate considerable pressure for the Russians on the eastern front. 

The American and British descent on North West Africa in November 1942 forced the Germans to not only deploy scare troops and tanks to Tunisia, but also to occupy Southern France, thus seriously spreading German forces even more thin just right before the Russians launched their powerful counter-attack at Stalingrad.


Likewise the allied invasion of Sicily in July 1943 was extremely problematic for the Germans as they were attempting their last great offensive on the eastern front at Kursk to regain at least some initiative against the Russians. It was in fact the reason why Hitler halted the offensive, which marked the point in the war where the Russians seized and retained the initiative for the rest of the conflict.*

* Hitler ordered significant formations from the eastern front to the Mediterranean, and while ultimately much of them were not sent, the Germans lost any chance, however small, of winning at Kursk, and thus it could be argued the Western Allies had a significant effect on the result of the battle.

Even the much criticized invasion of Italy had appreciable effects for the Russians. The Germans rightly feared the Italians were poised to switch sides to the allies and they deployed perhaps 20–25 divisions in Italy from mid-1943 to the end of the war. *


*The invasion also forced the Germans to disarm countless Italian divisions which ultimately amounted to nearly 1 million soldiers in Italy, the Aegean, Greece and Yugoslavia. These soldiers had to be replaced, by German ones, and it is obvious that having to disarm and replace 1 million Axis soldiers, along with considerable amounts of tanks, planes, artillery and other equipment, could be nothing but beneficial to the Russians who fought the lion-share of the German army.*
*-----*


*Finally, the ever increasing threat of a western allied invasion of Western Europe in 1944 forced the Germans to keep significant forces, perhaps 60 divisions and a disproportionate amount of armor, in the west.*


* Hitler was so obsessed with defeating such an invasion that he drained reinforcements to the eastern front and the lack of such forces helped the Russians to inflict perhaps the biggest defeat the Germans suffered during the war in the summer of 1944. As Nigel Davies noted in a piece regarding misleading statistics for the war “in sheer combat power, the removal of ten percent of divisions (say 20 divisions) from the Eastern Front to face the Western Allies (happened 3 times — Tunisia/Mediterranean 1942, Sicily/Italy 1943, and France 1944) looks a lot more significant if it involves moving 50% of the available Panzers and 70 or 80% of the high quality, full strength, specially equipped, Paratroop or Mountain or Waffen SS divisions.”*


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## otto105 (Sep 24, 2022)

2aguy said:


> Answer my question.........
> 
> Which do you prefer, that the mother and her daughter are brutally raped by a repeatedly released violent offender, or they are able to use a gun to shoot and kill him?


Geezsus! Now it’s a repeat offender and damn must be a minority and possibly a muslim….


I choose a gun restricted society which doesn’t have the gun crimes that we have.


Even in the olde west the sheriff took your guns at city limits to reduce crime.


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## 2aguy (Sep 24, 2022)

otto105 said:


> Geezsus! Now it’s a repeat offender and damn must be a minority and possibly a muslim….
> 
> 
> I choose a gun restricted society which doesn’t have the gun crimes that we have.
> ...



You assume, as the ass that you are, that the gun control laws keep criminals from getting and using guns......ask Sweden how that is working out for them....their criminals are on the escalation path, having gone from shooting each other in the legs and butt, to now killing each other....and they are using grenades like confetti too....

Britain is on that path, their criminals are using guns to kill now, where before they would shoot to wound.......

Our gun crime is 95% due to the policies of the democrat party releasing violent gun offenders, and attacking the police to the point they will not do their jobs for fear of persecution, and are quitting and retiring in huge numbers......

How do I know this.....?

Because as more Americans bought and carried guns our gun crime rate went down...until 2015 when the democrat party adopted their anti-police, pro-criminal policies.....


You have to explain away the following.....

Over  27 years,  from 1993  to the year 2015, we went from 200 million guns in private hands in the 1990s and 4.7 million people carrying guns for self defense in 1997...to close to 400-600 million guns in private hands and over 19.4 million people carrying guns for self defense in 2019 (in 2020 that number is 21.52 million)...guess what happened...

New Concealed Carry Report For 2020: 19.48 Million Permit Holders, 820,000 More Than Last Year despite many states shutting down issuing permits because of the Coronavirus - Crime Prevention Research Center


-- *gun murder down 49%

--gun crime down 75%

--violent crime down 72%*

Gun Homicide Rate Down 49% Since 1993 Peak; Public Unaware

*Compared with 1993, the peak of U.S. gun homicides, the firearm homicide rate was 49% lower in 2010, and there were fewer deaths, even though the nation’s population grew. The victimization rate for other violent crimes with a firearm—assaults, robberies and sex crimes—was 75% lower in 2011 than in 1993. Violent non-fatal crime victimization overall (with or without a firearm) also is down markedly (72%) over two decades.*
======

The gun murder and gun suicide rates in the U.S. both remain below their peak levels. There were 6.2 gun murders per 100,000 people in 2020, below the rate of 7.2 recorded in 1974. 


What the data says about gun deaths in the U.S.


This means that access to guns does not create gun crime........

Why do our democrat party controlled cities have gun crime problems?

*What changed in 2015?*

The democrat party did 3 things...

1) they began a war on the police that forced officers to stop pro active police work, allowing criminals to run wild.

2) they began to release the most violent and dangerous gun offenders over and over again, not matter how many times they had been arrested for gun crimes

3) they used their brown shirts, blm/antifa to burn, loot and murder for 7 months in primarily black neighborhoods while the democrat party mayors ordered the police to stand down and not stop them......in order to hurt Trump during the election.


----------



## 2aguy (Sep 24, 2022)

otto105 said:


> Geezsus! Now it’s a repeat offender and damn must be a minority and possibly a muslim….
> 
> 
> I choose a gun restricted society which doesn’t have the gun crimes that we have.
> ...




And answer the question....

Which do you prefer.....a woman and her 14 year old daughter are brutally raped by a repeat, violent criminal, released over and over by the government, or they use a gun to stop the rape by shooting the criminal?

Why won't you give an answer to that question?

The old west lie is old........it didn't work then, doesn't work now.....


----------



## otto105 (Sep 24, 2022)

2aguy said:


> You assume, as the ass that you are, that the gun control laws keep criminals from getting and using guns......ask Sweden how that is working out for them....their criminals are on the escalation path, having gone from shooting each other in the legs and butt, to now killing each other....and they are using grenades like confetti too....
> 
> Britain is on that path, their criminals are using guns to kill now, where before they would shoot to wound.......
> 
> ...


You better update your propaganda, its old.


----------



## otto105 (Sep 24, 2022)

2aguy said:


> And answer the question....
> 
> Which do you prefer.....a woman and her 14 year old daughter are brutally raped by a repeat, violent criminal, released over and over by the government, or they use a gun to stop the rape by shooting the criminal?
> 
> ...


You want a gun crime rate 646X what they have now.

Why is that?


----------



## 2aguy (Sep 25, 2022)

otto105 said:


> You want a gun crime rate 646X what they have now.
> 
> Why is that?




You still didn't answer the question......

Which do you prefer, a woman and her 14 year old daughter were actually brutally raped by a repeatedly released, violent criminal, or they could have had a gun to stop the rape...........?


----------



## Vagabond63 (Sep 25, 2022)

2aguy said:


> You don't know what you are talking about even on this issue....without the U.S. the Soviet Union would have been conquered by the Germans....


Oh good grief! I never said British and American aid didn't help the Soviets, merely that the Soviets launched a counter offensive before the effects of that could make itself felt. Do pay attention. The greatest help the Allies gave the USSR was the number of trucks they sent, allowing the Red Army to maintain supply lines.


----------



## Vagabond63 (Sep 25, 2022)

2aguy said:


> Not war statistics.....the 15 million people murdered were not casualties of the war. These people lived in European countries that did what you wanted...they banned guns, and 15 years after banning guns, they murdered 15 million people...


Total BS, as usual.


----------



## Vagabond63 (Sep 25, 2022)

2aguy said:


> He might not die...


But that appears to be your preferred outcome every time you post.


----------



## 2aguy (Sep 25, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> Total BS, as usual.



More actual research…….putting your fingers in your ears and shouting…”I don’t believe it nah nah nah nah….” Isn’t an actual argument……


----------



## 2aguy (Sep 25, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> But that appears to be your preferred outcome every time you post.



No….my preferred outcome is the woman and her 14 year old daughter are not brutally raped whether they have to use the gun to kill the violently criminal or not………but it is preferable that he is shot rather than be allowed to get away to keep brutally rape other defenseless women and girls…..

the more important question for us is why you and Otto refuse to answer that same question…..

Which is the your preferred outcome….the woman and her 14 year old daughter are both brutally raped, or they have a gun they can use to stop the rape?  Whether they actually have to shoot the criminal or not?


----------



## Blues Man (Sep 25, 2022)

otto105 said:


> I would rather have a country which doesn't have a gun violence rate 646X that of the UK.
> 
> Gun deaths in America: how many people killed in US compared to UK and rest of world


The reason we have the gun violence we do is because city state and the federal governments have all abdicated their responsibilities to uphold and enforce the laws we have on the books.

Every arrest made of anyone illegally possessing a firearm is a federal crime but none of these crimes are prosecuted
In some cities gun charges are dropped over 70% of the time in plea deals


Everyone already knows where the vast majority  of murders occur in this country.  It is a fact that our poorest urban neighborhoods account for 70% or more of all the murders in this country.  In fact these areas often have murder rates that are 5 or more times the national average.  But local, state and federal law enforcement in this country ignores the problem because these murders are primarily young minority males killing other young minority males and no one gives a shit.


----------



## Hollie (Sep 25, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> Most people in Europe manage to live their lives without needing guns at all, it's called civilisation. From what you preach, America seems to be a barbarous country full of murderers, rapists, thieves, etc. that requires everyone to carry guns to protect themselves, sad.


Most of Europe, especially pre WW2, and much now, lives under authoritarian / socialist regimes. Those types of regimes never allow an armed population because such a population is more difficult to control. The other error you make is not understanding that the US has a Constitution that affirms inalienable rights to its population. That precept is utterly absent in authoritarian / socialist regimes.


----------



## Blues Man (Sep 25, 2022)

otto105 said:


> That happened in the UK?


In the UK you are more likely to be arrested for defending yourself and your family against a home invader than the home invader is.
Oh and let's not ignore the fact that there is no freedom of speech or assembly in the UK either/


----------



## Vagabond63 (Sep 25, 2022)

Blues Man said:


> In the UK you are more likely to be arrested for defending yourself and your family against a home invader than the home invader is.
> Oh and let's not ignore the fact that there is no freedom of speech or assembly in the UK either/


Getting that way, true. Because of Right wing Conservative governments.


----------



## Blues Man (Sep 25, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> Getting that way, true. Because of Right wing Conservative governments.


And you better not read the "wrong books"


----------



## Vagabond63 (Sep 25, 2022)

Hollie said:


> Most of Europe, especially pre WW2, and much now, lives under authoritarian / socialist regimes. Those types of regimes never allow an armed population because such a population is more difficult to control. The other error you make is not understanding that the US has a Constitution that affirms inalienable rights to its population. That precept is utterly absent in authoritarian / socialist regimes.


Drivel. The only regimes that reduce the rights of their citizens are the Right Wing populist (aka fascist) regimes that currently exist in many Eastern European countries.


----------



## Vagabond63 (Sep 25, 2022)

Blues Man said:


> And you better not read the "wrong books"


I can read any book I want to, unlike in Republican controlled states where books are banned.


----------



## 2aguy (Sep 25, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> Getting that way, true. Because of Right wing Conservative governments.




Now that is funny...........your left wing wrecks the country, then you blame the less left wing Tories......you really don't have an American style Conservative party, you have big government and less big government parties......


----------



## 2aguy (Sep 25, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> Drivel. The only regimes that reduce the rights of their citizens are the Right Wing populist (aka fascist) regimes that currently exist in many Eastern European countries.




Fascism isn't Right Wing, it is socialism........


----------



## Vagabond63 (Sep 25, 2022)

Blues Man said:


> In the UK you are more likely to be arrested for defending yourself and your family against a home invader than the home invader is.


Depends on the level of force you use, it's always been like that in most civilised countries.


----------



## 2aguy (Sep 25, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> I can read any book I want to, unlike in Republican controlled states where books are banned.




No books are banned in the U.S....we just try to keep books about children having sex out of our public schools and libraries....


----------



## bodecea (Sep 25, 2022)

Calypso Jones said:


> This isn't going to stop until brit politicians families start getting raped by these folk.


Looking forward to that?


----------



## Blues Man (Sep 25, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> I can read any book I want to, unlike in Republican controlled states where books are banned.


No you really can't just ask the kid who went to jail for reading a banned book in the UK

And banned books in the US usually only means that public schools won't have them in their libraries but they are readily available anywhere else.  And no one will ever go to jail for reading a book in the US


----------



## bodecea (Sep 25, 2022)

2aguy said:


> No books are banned in the U.S....we just try to keep books about children having sex out of our public schools and libraries....


You are right....because as soon as loony MAGAts list a book to be banned, it becomes very very popular to read.   Banning books doesn't work.


----------



## Blues Man (Sep 25, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> Depends on the level of force you use, it's always been like that in most civilised countries.


Yeah better to let some home invader just do what he wants in the UK because if you give him a black eye you're going to jail for assault.


----------



## 2aguy (Sep 25, 2022)

Blues Man said:


> No you really can't just ask the kid who went to jail for reading a banned book in the UK
> 
> And banned books in the US usually only means that public schools won't have them in their libraries but they are readily available anywhere else.  And no one will ever go to jail for reading a book in the US




And it is the left wing democrats actually keeping normal literature like Mark Twain and To Kill a Mockingbird out of public schools while conservatives are trying to keep books about children performing oral sex on each other and adults raping children out of public schools and libraries...while the left wing democrats are pushing to have those books taught as part of the curriculum.....


----------



## 2aguy (Sep 25, 2022)

bodecea said:


> You are right....because as soon as loony MAGAts list a book to be banned, it becomes very very popular to read.   Banning books doesn't work.



Not calling for any books to be banned, just to keep the books about children having sex, with each other and adults, the books you guys want as part of the school curiculum, out of schools and public libraries...

Why do you want those books, that show children having sex with each other and with adults, accessible to children?  Do you want children reading about performing oral sex?


----------



## Vagabond63 (Sep 25, 2022)

2aguy said:


> Which is the your preferred outcome….the woman and her 14 year old daughter are both brutally raped, or they have a gun they can use to stop the rape? Whether they actually have to shoot the criminal or not?


My preferred outcome in this instance, is that the poor victim never opened the door in the first place, or invested in a door spy hole, or remote camera. Had she done so, this would never have occurred, but that's hindsight. 
Whatever makes you think, in this instance, that the victim would ever have gotten the chance to get hold of her gun before she was overpowered?


----------



## Blues Man (Sep 25, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> My preferred outcome in this instance, is that the poor victim never opened the door in the first place, or invested in a door spy hole, or remote camera. Had she done so, this would never have occurred, but that's hindsight.
> Whatever makes you think, in this instance, that the victim would ever have gotten the chance to get hold of her gun before she was overpowered?


Yeah because a criminal will never force his way into a home in the UK because he is too "civilized" right?

And what makes you think she couldn't?


----------



## Vagabond63 (Sep 25, 2022)

2aguy said:


> Fascism isn't Right Wing, it is socialism........


Dream on. You have no idea what Socialism is, you just try and deflect what the GOP has become onto your Democrat party because the mid-terms are due and you are in panic mode. We find this hilarious over here.


----------



## Hollie (Sep 25, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> Drivel. The only regimes that reduce the rights of their citizens are the Right Wing populist (aka fascist) regimes that currently exist in many Eastern European countries.


''many Eastern European countries". 

I guess you missed the part where I wrote, ''Most of Europe, especially pre WW2, and much now, lives under authoritarian / socialist regimes''.

The fact is, socialism and authoritarianism is the model across do much of Europe. 









						Are European countries Socialist? - Politic Sphere
					

Socialism is one of the most used economic models across the globe. It ensures that the ruling governments play a part in the lives of the masses. Many




					www.politicsphere.com
				



From the perspective of taking care of the masses through various government initiatives, European countries can be described as socialist.


----------



## Blues Man (Sep 25, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> Dream on. You have no idea what Socialism is, you just try and deflect what the GOP has become onto your Democrat party because the mid-terms are due and you are in panic mode. We find this hilarious over here.


Like you political system is the gold standard right?


----------



## Vagabond63 (Sep 25, 2022)

Blues Man said:


> Yeah because a criminal will never force his way into a home in the UK because he is too "civilized" right?


They can try, but they rarely, if ever, succeed if the householder has adequate security in place and is alert to the possibility.


----------



## 2aguy (Sep 25, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> My preferred outcome in this instance, is that the poor victim never opened the door in the first place, or invested in a door spy hole, or remote camera. Had she done so, this would never have occurred, but that's hindsight.
> Whatever makes you think, in this instance, that the victim would ever have gotten the chance to get hold of her gun before she was overpowered?



Okay......the criminal, being a criminal, gets around the door and the cameras and now, with the actual event, the woman and her daughter are face to face with the violent criminal you guys keep letting out of jail.....then what?

What outcome do you prefer?  That the woman and her daughter are brutally raped or they use a gun to stop it?

As to your question?

*Whatever makes you think, in this instance, that the victim would ever have gotten the chance to get hold of her gun before she was overpowered?

Actual, real world experience......*

*And the fact that I want that woman to have the choice to have a gun if she wants to have one...you don't want her to have that choice....you prefer she and her daughter are raped...*



What I want you to know on Gun Violence Awareness Day

I correctly listened to my instincts; I had a feeling that my life was in danger in that elevator and prepared myself mentally for what was potentially to come. 

I ran to my car in an attempt to escape and, before I could even get my entire body in my car, I was tackled by my attacker.

This man quickly overpowered me, stabbed at me with a knife, clamped his hand over my mouth multiple times, and repeatedly tried forcing me in the passenger seat of my car while telling me, “We’re going.”

*The entire time this was happening, a rusted, serrated knife was being stabbed towards my abdomen and held at my face. 

I had been hit in the face, thrown over my driver’s side console, and had rips in my tights from his hands trying to force my legs up and over into the passenger seat.*

There are some individuals that think gun owners are “trigger happy” and wanting to pull their weapons out at the first opportunity. There is nothing further from the truth.

The night I was attacked, I fought like hell for my life before reaching for my gun. I kicked, I screamed, I had all ten fingernails ripped off and bloodied from scratching and trying to fight my way out of a literal life and death situation.
*Ultimately, I accessed my gun, shot my attacker multiple times, and saved my life. He will be spending years in prison for what he did to me.*

Using a gun in self-protection is not a decision one makes lightly; in fact, I never dreamed that I would be forced into a situation where I would have to do so. However, I also never imagined such evil existing in the world so that I would be powerless, wounded, on my back and unable to physically force my attacker off of me.

I owned a gun and had been trained on how to use it. I know how to safely carry and that a gun is a serious and significant weapon; it is not to be used carelessly. Naysayers and people with opposing opinions may try to undermine my situation with hypotheticals. I cannot answer these questions. All I can do is tell the facts of my story and the true account of how I saved my own life.

*What I want you to know on Gun Awareness Day is that a gun in the hands of a potential victim is not improperly placed; it can be the only thing keeping her from being brutally raped and murdered. *

Without my gun, I would not be alive today.


*Guns are not the problem in America; men like my attacker -- who are willing to violently change one person’s life for no reason except for pure evil – are the problem.*

Be safe at all times. Be aware of your surroundings. Trust your instincts. Always be able to protect yourself. Refuse to be a victim, and instead be a fighter and a survivor. Live to tell your tale and make a criminal regret the day he chose you as a “soft target.” My gun saved my life, and one could save yours too.
===============


Mother Shoots Intruder 'Multiple Times' to Save Baby - Breitbart

*An Indianapolis mother shot a man “multiple times” after he allegedly broke into the home through the window in the baby’s room.*

According to CBS 4, family members said that around noon on March 24, the woman “heard the window get busted and she called her husband and said I think somebody’s breaking in the house.”

She grabbed her pistol and ran toward the sound of breaking glass, only to be confronted by the alleged intruder who shot at her, but missed.

The mother then opened fire and struck the suspect “multiple times.” He was transported to a hospital for treatment.

In addition to being armed, a 911 dispatcher said the suspect was “carrying zip ties and a walkie-talkie.”
======

DGU of the Day: Trotwood Ohio Woman Defeats Three Home Invaders - The Truth About Guns

Three men break into a home in Trotwood, Ohio. [Click here to watch the video.] They’re all armed. It is before 6 am, just three days after Christmas. One of the men is armed with a Tec-9 pistol. He enters last. The other two hold what appear to be conventional semi-auto pistols. They bypass two sleeping children to find the mother. The surveillance video shows the three following the mother after they pistol whipped her in the laundry room.

The man directly behind her has the Tec-9. Presumably holds her at gunpoint while the other two attempt to drag off a safe, in a room with two more children. While the two men are occupied with the safe, the woman breaks free from her captor, accesses a hidden pistol, and starts to fire.

All three run, but the Tec-9 gunman, Azikiwe Presley, is mortally wounded. His body is found 100 yards from the house. From wdtn.com:

“I got my gun and I started shooting and they ran,” the female caller told dispatchers. “They all three had guns, I’m confused … they must not have had bullets because after I pulled the trigger they just took off, instead of firing back. I don’t know if I hit one or not, I don’t see blood anywhere.”

In this case, the recipient of female dedication to protecting innocent life ran a hundred yards and died. It is not uncommon for a man who is fatally shot to run that far, even with a heart/lung shot. As he was likely the one holding the woman at gunpoint, and the closest, greatest, threat with the Tec-9, it is not surprising that he drew the lethal ticket. Whether through choice or happenstance, the mother made the right tactical decision.
=


----------



## 2aguy (Sep 25, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> They can try, but they rarely, if ever, succeed if the householder has adequate security in place and is alert to the possibility.




And when they do....when they actually bypass all the passive security and are then face to face with one, or more, violent criminals that you and the other leftists keep releasing from jail and prison?

What outcome do you prefer in that situation?

Do you prefer that the woman and her daughter have a gun as a final chance at self defense or that the woman and her 14 year old daughter are brutally raped by the criminal you guys keep releasing from jail?  As happened in this actual situation?


----------



## Vagabond63 (Sep 25, 2022)

Hollie said:


> ''many Eastern European countries".
> 
> I guess you missed the part where I wrote, ''Most of Europe, especially pre WW2, and much now, lives under authoritarian / socialist regimes''.
> 
> ...


Your own source disagrees with you, 
"However, counter arguments say that Europe is more capitalistic than socialistic and tends to prioritize profits over the welfare of people [Source]. This is supported by the fact that many businesses thrive while people suffer. In the past two years, the number of millionaires and poor people in Europe increased. Such is evidence of inequality and distribution of wealth. 

Also, many European major companies are privatized and owned by millionaires and billionaires. These countries also have the most marginalized and segregated minority groups who live in the underbellies of ghetto cities. Due to this, one cannot describe European countries as solely socialist."

Next?


----------



## 2aguy (Sep 25, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> Dream on. You have no idea what Socialism is, you just try and deflect what the GOP has become onto your Democrat party because the mid-terms are due and you are in panic mode. We find this hilarious over here.




Panic mode?  The democrats are looking at getting their asses kicked...just like the leftists in Sweden and Italy did...because you morons keep destroying your countries....

I know what socialism is, as do you, which is why you have to lie about fascism being socialism.......you have to hide what socialism does.....and that since 1917, all of the government mass murder has been committed by socialists....


----------



## Blues Man (Sep 25, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> They can try, but they rarely, if ever, succeed if the householder has adequate security in place and is alert to the possibility.


Very few homes are that secure


----------



## 2aguy (Sep 25, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> Your own source disagrees with you,
> "However, counter arguments say that Europe is more capitalistic than socialistic and tends to prioritize profits over the welfare of people [Source]. This is supported by the fact that many businesses thrive while people suffer. In the past two years, the number of millionaires and poor people in Europe increased. Such is evidence of inequality and distribution of wealth.
> 
> Also, many European major companies are privatized and owned by millionaires and billionaires. These countries also have the most marginalized and segregated minority groups who live in the underbellies of ghetto cities. Due to this, one cannot describe European countries as solely socialist."
> ...




Ooooh.....now you can answer my question...

After the career, violent criminal has bypassed the passive security measures that you love....and is now face to face with the woman and her 14 year old daughter.......you know, considering that getting past those passive measures is what he does as a career criminal.....

Which outcome do you prefer.....that the woman and her 14 year old daughter are brutally raped...as actually happened...or that they use a gun to stop the rape......?  Driving off, captureing, or shooting and wounding, or even killing the attacker...so he doesn't simply run away to rape a woman and 14 year old who do not have a gun to stop him?


----------



## Vagabond63 (Sep 25, 2022)

2aguy said:


> Whatever makes you think, in this instance, that the victim would ever have gotten the chance to get hold of her gun before she was overpowered?
> 
> Actual, real world experience.


So you have no answer then, just your normal deluge of cut and paste deflection. Concession accepted.


----------



## Vagabond63 (Sep 25, 2022)

Blues Man said:


> Very few homes are that secure


Perhaps in barbarous America...


----------



## Hollie (Sep 25, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> They can try, but they rarely, if ever, succeed if the householder has adequate security in place and is alert to the possibility.


Completely unsupported statement. 

The facts say otherwise.









						How Many Home Invasions Happen Per Year In America? (2021)
					

Discover how many home invasions happen per year in the U.S., the costs associated with home invasions, and much more...




					www.simplyinsurance.com


----------



## Vagabond63 (Sep 25, 2022)

2aguy said:


> Okay......the criminal, being a criminal, gets around the door and the cameras


How?


----------



## Vagabond63 (Sep 25, 2022)

Hollie said:


> Completely unsupported statement.
> 
> The facts say otherwise.
> 
> ...


You mean these facts?

Only 25% of Americans have a residential security system.

Homes with no security system are 300 percent more likely to be robbed.

Unanswered mail is one of the most reliable methods for potential robbers to learn that no one is at home.


----------



## Vagabond63 (Sep 25, 2022)

2aguy said:


> .you know, considering that getting past those passive measures is what he does as a career criminal.....


Really, examples please.


----------



## 2aguy (Sep 25, 2022)

Blues Man said:


> Very few homes are that secure




He just will say anything to keep from having to confront the truth that guns actually save innocent people from violent monsters....


----------



## Vagabond63 (Sep 25, 2022)

2aguy said:


> He just will say anything to keep from having to confront the truth that guns actually save innocent people from violent monsters....


See post #83.


----------



## 2aguy (Sep 25, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> Really, examples please.




I already gave you some..........you twit....

*Here they are again.....*now, this is where Vagabond bitches about my using Copy/paste to answer his question because I actually use links and real world stories to answer his questions...

What I want you to know on Gun Violence Awareness Day

I correctly listened to my instincts; I had a feeling that my life was in danger in that elevator and prepared myself mentally for what was potentially to come. 

I ran to my car in an attempt to escape and, before I could even get my entire body in my car, I was tackled by my attacker.

This man quickly overpowered me, stabbed at me with a knife, clamped his hand over my mouth multiple times, and repeatedly tried forcing me in the passenger seat of my car while telling me, “We’re going.”

*The entire time this was happening, a rusted, serrated knife was being stabbed towards my abdomen and held at my face. 

I had been hit in the face, thrown over my driver’s side console, and had rips in my tights from his hands trying to force my legs up and over into the passenger seat.*

There are some individuals that think gun owners are “trigger happy” and wanting to pull their weapons out at the first opportunity. There is nothing further from the truth.

The night I was attacked, I fought like hell for my life before reaching for my gun. I kicked, I screamed, I had all ten fingernails ripped off and bloodied from scratching and trying to fight my way out of a literal life and death situation.
*Ultimately, I accessed my gun, shot my attacker multiple times, and saved my life. He will be spending years in prison for what he did to me.*

Using a gun in self-protection is not a decision one makes lightly; in fact, I never dreamed that I would be forced into a situation where I would have to do so. However, I also never imagined such evil existing in the world so that I would be powerless, wounded, on my back and unable to physically force my attacker off of me.

I owned a gun and had been trained on how to use it. I know how to safely carry and that a gun is a serious and significant weapon; it is not to be used carelessly. Naysayers and people with opposing opinions may try to undermine my situation with hypotheticals. I cannot answer these questions. All I can do is tell the facts of my story and the true account of how I saved my own life.

*What I want you to know on Gun Awareness Day is that a gun in the hands of a potential victim is not improperly placed; it can be the only thing keeping her from being brutally raped and murdered. *

Without my gun, I would not be alive today.


*Guns are not the problem in America; men like my attacker -- who are willing to violently change one person’s life for no reason except for pure evil – are the problem.*

Be safe at all times. Be aware of your surroundings. Trust your instincts. Always be able to protect yourself. Refuse to be a victim, and instead be a fighter and a survivor. Live to tell your tale and make a criminal regret the day he chose you as a “soft target.” My gun saved my life, and one could save yours too.
===============


Mother Shoots Intruder 'Multiple Times' to Save Baby - Breitbart

*An Indianapolis mother shot a man “multiple times” after he allegedly broke into the home through the window in the baby’s room.*

According to CBS 4, family members said that around noon on March 24, the woman “heard the window get busted and she called her husband and said I think somebody’s breaking in the house.”

She grabbed her pistol and ran toward the sound of breaking glass, only to be confronted by the alleged intruder who shot at her, but missed.

The mother then opened fire and struck the suspect “multiple times.” He was transported to a hospital for treatment.

In addition to being armed, a 911 dispatcher said the suspect was “carrying zip ties and a walkie-talkie.”
======

DGU of the Day: Trotwood Ohio Woman Defeats Three Home Invaders - The Truth About Guns

Three men break into a home in Trotwood, Ohio. [Click here to watch the video.] They’re all armed. It is before 6 am, just three days after Christmas. One of the men is armed with a Tec-9 pistol. He enters last. The other two hold what appear to be conventional semi-auto pistols. They bypass two sleeping children to find the mother. The surveillance video shows the three following the mother after they pistol whipped her in the laundry room.

The man directly behind her has the Tec-9. Presumably holds her at gunpoint while the other two attempt to drag off a safe, in a room with two more children. While the two men are occupied with the safe, the woman breaks free from her captor, accesses a hidden pistol, and starts to fire.

All three run, but the Tec-9 gunman, Azikiwe Presley, is mortally wounded. His body is found 100 yards from the house. From wdtn.com:

“I got my gun and I started shooting and they ran,” the female caller told dispatchers. “They all three had guns, I’m confused … they must not have had bullets because after I pulled the trigger they just took off, instead of firing back. I don’t know if I hit one or not, I don’t see blood anywhere.”

In this case, the recipient of female dedication to protecting innocent life ran a hundred yards and died. It is not uncommon for a man who is fatally shot to run that far, even with a heart/lung shot. As he was likely the one holding the woman at gunpoint, and the closest, greatest, threat with the Tec-9, it is not surprising that he drew the lethal ticket. Whether through choice or happenstance, the mother made the right tactical decision.
=====

*Here are a few more....*

Concealed Carrier Holds Burglar At Gunpoint With Her FNX .45

CLEVELAND, TENNESSEE — A woman successfully subdued a would-be burglar outside her home using her FNX .45. The suspect, James Jeffrey Dunn, was allegedly trying to break in through her front door late at night. She got her handgun and confronted the burglar, according to WRCB. Once at the doorway, she yelled through the door for him to stay put and not move. Moments later, she confronted him head-on — handgun drawn and ready to go.

via WRCB

“I tried to order him to stay right where he was at and I pointed the gun at him and I came running off the porch and I came within 10 feet of him and he laid the bicycle down and he crumpled on top of the bicycle,” she says.

She held him at gunpoint until Cleveland Police arrived and arrested Dunn, 35, on charges of aggravated burglary, theft, and burglary of a motor vehicle. Police note that Dunn had an arrest sheet tallying over 40 charges — the most recent being only 6 hours prior to his attempted burglary of this concealed carrier.

“We went over this when we got my concealed carry permit, these types of scenarios. But I had already put that gun up and ever taken it out since, you know?” she says. “Maybe to go the range once.”

When we talk about the new generation of concealed carriers, let’s take a good long look at the realities these people are facing: hardened, career criminals unafraid to bust through the door or do damage to private property and persons. It’s a good thing this woman had the proper training she needed and the right equipment.
======

Armed South Carolina Woman Chases Off Daytime Home Invader - The Truth About Guns

When Ms. Reeves ran across Ralph Goss slithering around inside her home yesterday in the middle of the afternoon, she drew her firearm. Staring down that barrel was enough to change Goss’s mind about whatever it was he had planned.

“I’m one of those people that can go from zero to a hundred in 2.5 seconds and I’m not a nice person normally, but as soon as I got on the phone with the sheriff’s department he was out of sight. The severity of it hit me, and I was in hysterics. I was crying, I was scared, I was very shaken.”

Oconee County deputies tracked Goss down within hours of Ms. Reeves’ call. And surprise! He already had several outstanding warrants for his arrest.
===============

Attacker with knife flees after woman reveals her concealed carry gun, police say

A woman in Illinois was reportedly able to protect herself with her concealed carry firearm after a stranger with a knife jumped into her car.

Police said a woman who was parked near a shopping mall in Moline on Sunday was attacked by a man who fought his way into her car, according to WQAD 8.

During the fight, the man reportedly slashed the woman’s arm with a knife. He then ordered the woman to drive to Rock Island County, a rural area, according to police.


Once the woman stopped the car, she was able to reach her gun, which she had a concealed carry firearm permit for, WQAD 8 reported.

After the attacker saw the weapon, he reportedly ran off and she was able to drive herself to the hospital.

Police subsequently opened an investigation and arrested Floyd R. May, 61.

May was charged with aggravated kidnapping, aggravated battery with a weapon, unlawful use of a weapon by a felon and aggravated assault.


----------



## Hollie (Sep 25, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> Your own source disagrees with you,
> "However, counter arguments say that Europe is more capitalistic than socialistic and tends to prioritize profits over the welfare of people [Source]. This is supported by the fact that many businesses thrive while people suffer. In the past two years, the number of millionaires and poor people in Europe increased. Such is evidence of inequality and distribution of wealth.
> 
> Also, many European major companies are privatized and owned by millionaires and billionaires. These countries also have the most marginalized and segregated minority groups who live in the underbellies of ghetto cities. Due to this, one cannot describe European countries as solely socialist."
> ...



Next?

"From the perspective of taking care of the masses through various government initiatives, European countries can be described as socialist. This is because most of them have programs that benefit almost every citizen. Examples of these socialist policies include medicare, social security, the minimum wage, and child labor laws [Source]. These programs are part of the elected government. Terry Bodanski noted that socialist programs are basically “public everything,” such as public libraries, parks, toilets, drinking fountains, parking universities, hospitals [Source]; this view qualifies a lot of European nations as socialist."

My source disagrees with you.

Next?


----------



## 2aguy (Sep 25, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> You mean these facts?
> 
> Only 25% of Americans have a residential security system.
> 
> ...




And yet in Britain, you have more actual home invasions.....where criminals invade the homes while people are in them....vs. the U.S. where criminals avoid entering homes with people in them.....

Why?

Because Americans have guns and criminals don't want to get shot.......

Burglary victims attacked in their own home once every 30 minutes
A householder is attacked by a violent burglar every 30 minutes.

The shocking statistic exposes for the first time the epidemic of terrifying intruder confrontations taking place in Britain.

It will intensify demands for householders to be given greater protection if they use force to protect themselves and their family against a burglar.

In the wake of the case of Munir Hussain, who was jailed and later freed for beating a raider, ministers insisted it was extremely rare for a person to find themselves in trouble with the police for fighting back against a burglar.

But with householders suffering violence on 23,000 occasions last year, campaigners say the case for a change to the law is growing ever stronger.

The Tories, who compiled the figures, have given a manifesto commitment to review the law, which currently allows a householder to respond with 'reasonable force'.

Under one option being considered, a burglary victim who took on an intruder could only be prosecuted if they used 'grossly disproportionate force'.

Shadow Home Secretary Chris Grayling said: 'These figures are an alarming indication of the culture of violence that has built up in our society.

'It just goes to show how important it is that we change the law to give proper protection to householders who defend themselves and their families against a violent intruder in their homes.

'The Government promised to change the law, but then didn't. We will.'

The figures emerged in an analysis of official crime statistics. Last year, the number of domestic burglaries recorded by police in England and Wales rose for the first time in six years, from 280,694 in 2007-08 to 284,427.

The British Crime Survey provides more information on the nature of burglaries than those recorded in police crime figures.

According to the BCS, householders came face-to-face with burglars in 20 per cent of domestic burglaries last year. That translates one every ten minutes. In other cases, either no one was at home or the victim was at home but unaware they were being burgled and did not see the offender.

Of the burglaries in which the victim came face-to-face with the intruder, violence was either used or threatened in 59 per cent of crimes.



Read more: Burglary victims attacked in their own home once every 30 minutes
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

An Englishman's home is his dungeon

But the trouble is that this kind of burglary - the kind most likely to go "wrong" - is now the norm in Britain. In America, it's called a "hot" burglary - a burglary that takes place when the homeowners are present - or a "home invasion", which is a much more accurate term. Just over 10 per cent of US burglaries are "hot" burglaries, and in my part of the world it's statistically insignificant: there is virtually zero chance of a New Hampshire home being broken into while the family are present.

But in England and Wales it's more than 50 per cent and climbing. Which is hardly surprising given the police's petty, well-publicised pursuit of those citizens who have the impertinence to resist criminals.

*These days, even as he or she is being clobbered, the more thoughtful British subject is usually keeping an eye (the one that hasn't been poked out) on potential liability. Four years ago, Shirley Best, proprietor of the Rolander Fashion emporium, whose clients include Zara Phillips, was ironing some clothes when the proverbial two youths showed up. They pressed the hot iron into her flesh, burning her badly, and then stole her watch. "I was frightened to defend myself," said Miss Best. "I thought if I did anything I would be arrested." There speaks the modern British crime victim.*


----------



## 2aguy (Sep 25, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> You mean these facts?
> 
> Only 25% of Americans have a residential security system.
> 
> ...



Hot Burglaries in various countries...

https://www.researchgate.net/figure/nternational-Comparisons-of-Hot-Burglary-Rates_tbl1_5196898

1976.....

Netherlands..... 48%

U.S......9%
-------------
1982-88....

Britain.... 43%

U.S. ( 1983)....12%
-----------

1998....

Britain...46%

U.S..... 20.5%



http://www.davekopel.com/2A/LawRev/LawyersGunsBurglars.htm#FN;F64

C. In Homes and on the Street​Rengert and Wasilchick's book about how burglars work reveals that fear of armed homeowners played a major role in determining burglary targets. Burglars reported that they avoided late-night burglaries because, "That's the way to get shot." [FN63] Some burglars said that they shun burglaries in neighborhoods with people of mostly a different race because, "You'll get shot if you're caught there." [FN64]
The most thorough study of burglary patterns was a St. Louis survey of 105 currently active burglars. [FN65] The authors observed, "One of the most serious risks faced by residential burglars is the possibility of being injured or killed by occupants of a target. Many of the offenders we spoke to reported that this was far and away their greatest fear." [FN66] Said one burglar: "I don't think about gettin' caught, I think about gettin' gunned down, shot or somethin'...'cause you get into some people's houses...quick as I come in there, boom, they hit you right there. That's what I think about."
Another burglar explained:


> Hey, wouldn't you blow somebody away if someone broke into your house and you don't know them? You hear this noise and they come breakin' in the window tryin' to get into your house, they gon' want to kill you anyway. See, with the police, they gon' say, "Come out with your hands up and don't do nothing foolish!" Okay, you still alive, but you goin' to jail. But you alive. You sneak into somebody's house and they wait til you get in the house and then they shoot you.. . .See what I'm sayin'? You can't explain nothin' to nobody; you layin' down in there dead! [FN67]


In contrast, Missouri is one of only nine states which has no provision for citizens to be issued permits to carry handguns for protection. Thus, a criminal in St. Louis faces a very high risk that the target of a home invasion may have a lawful gun for protection, but minimal risk that the target of a street robbery will have a lawful firearm for defense. The same authors who studied active St. Louis burglars conducted another study of active St. Louis armed robbers. [FN68] They found that "ome of the offenders who favored armed robbery over other crimes *355 maintained that the offense was also safer than burglary. . .." [FN69] As one armed robber put it: "My style is, like, _ don't have to be up in nobody's house in case they come in; they might have a pistol in the house or something." [FN70]
On the streets, many of the St. Louis robbers "routinely targeted law-abiding citizens," [FN71] who, unlike their counterparts in most American states, were certain not to be carrying a gun for protection. Law-abiding citizens were chosen as robbery victims because, as one robber noted, "You don't want to pick somebody dangerous; they might have a gun themselves." [FN72]
In addition to the St. Louis study, the Wright-Rossi National Institute of Justice surveyed felony prisoners in eleven state prison systems on the impact of victim firearms on burglar behavior. [FN73] In that survey, seventy-four percent of the convicts who had committed a burglary or violent crime agreed, "One reason burglars avoid houses when people are at home is that they fear being shot." [FN74]_


----------



## Hollie (Sep 25, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> You mean these facts?
> 
> Only 25% of Americans have a residential security system.
> 
> ...



You should take responsibility for what you wrote.

''They can try, but they rarely, if ever, succeed if the householder has adequate security in place and is alert to the possibility.''

The sheer number of home invasions contradicts your unsupported statement.


----------



## 2aguy (Sep 25, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> See post #83.





*Tell us....do you think the rich couple in this story had your passive security measures on their home?

How'd they work out for them?*




Wealthy retired couple tortured by burglars who forced wife to walk on broken glass in £20,000 raid


*wealthy couple were tortured by "Swat team" burglars who forced the wife to walk on broken glass before breaking one of her toes with a sledgehammer while stealing £20,000 of gold and jewels.*

Professional burglars John McCarthy, 35, and Richard Leslie, 37, were branded "every householder's worst nightmare" after playing leading roles in the gang that terrorised the vulnerable pensioners for four hours during a night-time raid.

--------

During their ordeal, the couple, aged in their 70s, were bound with tape, beaten, threatened and locked in a utility room.

The burglars hit the 77-year-old man with a chair and forced his 75-year-old wife to walk barefoot on glass, having discarded her slippers.

One of the burglars threatened to cut off the wife's fingers and ear with a pair of shears if gold, cash and Rolex watches were not produced.

She also needed extensive dental treatment because of the beating to her face. Her husband was stuck with pins "many times" to extort more valuables, the court heard.

During the attack, one of the armed intruders boasted: "This is what we do for a living."

They made off with Chinese ornaments in 24 carat gold, jewellery, silver commemorative coins featuring Winston Churchill and Margaret Thatcher, gold bars, a custom-made Seiko watch as well as thousands of pounds and Hong Kong dollars in cash.
============

An Englishman's home is his dungeon

Various reassuring types, from police spokesmen to the Economist, described the stabbing of the Moncktons as a "burglary gone wrong". If only more burglaries could go right, they imply, this sort of thing wouldn't happen.
But the trouble is that this kind of burglary - the kind most likely to go "wrong" - is now the norm in Britain. In America, it's called a "hot" burglary - a burglary that takes place when the homeowners are present - or a "home invasion", which is a much more accurate term. Just over 10 per cent of US burglaries are "hot" burglaries, and in my part of the world it's statistically insignificant: there is virtually zero chance of a New Hampshire home being broken into while the family are present. But in England and Wales it's more than 50 per cent and climbing. Which is hardly surprising given the police's petty, well-publicised pursuit of those citizens who have the impertinence to resist criminals.
These days, even as he or she is being clobbered, the more thoughtful British subject is usually keeping an eye (the one that hasn't been poked out) on potential liability. Four years ago, Shirley Best, proprietor of the Rolander Fashion emporium, whose clients include Zara Phillips, was ironing some clothes when the proverbial two youths showed up. They pressed the hot iron into her flesh, burning her badly, and then stole her watch. "I was frightened to defend myself," said Miss Best. "I thought if I did anything I would be arrested." There speaks the modern British crime victim.

Waterboarded by a gang of robbers in her £7m home: Masked intruders torture grandmother, 73, for three hours to make her open a safe


That led to a terrifying three-hour ordeal in which the attackers used waterboarding – a form of torture in which the victim is made to feel they are about to be drowned.
The men took underwear from Mrs Jansen’s bedroom and forced it into her mouth before dragging her into the en-suite bathroom. They pulled her head back over the bath and covered her face with a towel they kept flooded with water from the shower head.
‘They did this to me three times but I just couldn’t open the safe,’ she said. ‘I kept telling them it was empty but they didn’t believe me.’
Mrs Jansen, who lives on a private estate in Weybridge, Surrey, told the Mail: ‘I was absolutely terrified, I thought they were going to kill me.
‘They asked me if I had any grandchildren, I told them I had ten and they said “We are going to kill you, do you think your grandchildren will miss you?”
‘I was consumed by fear. It was sheer hell and all I can remember is praying.’
Her six-bedroomed house had been broken into  several weeks before the attack last Friday and Surrey Police believe the raiders had located the two safes at that point.


Read more: Waterboarded by a gang of robbers in her £7m home: Masked intruders torture grandmother, 73, for three hours to make her open a safe
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook


----------



## Blues Man (Sep 25, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> Perhaps in barbarous America...


All those old ramshackle flats in the UK are not any more secure than any home in this country.


----------



## Vagabond63 (Sep 25, 2022)

2aguy said:


> I already gave you some..........you twit....


None of these incidents have anything to do with "violent criminals bypassing security measures"  so please provide examples where these career criminals bypassed/overcame secure houses.


----------



## Blues Man (Sep 25, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> None of these incidents have anything to do with "violent criminals bypassing security measures"  so please provide examples where these career criminals bypassed/overcame secure houses.


What you never heard of anyone breaking a window to get in a house?
What about kicking a door in?  It isn't that hard even with a deadbolt.  Just about any door knob on any home can be taken out with a drill in less than 30 seconds


----------



## Vagabond63 (Sep 25, 2022)

2aguy said:


> Tell us....do you think the rich couple in this story had your passive security measures on their home?
> 
> How'd they work out for them?


No idea, the stories mention no security measures at all that were overcome. What makes you think these 70 year olds were unarmed? After all you seem convinced that only the rich and well connected ever have firearms...


----------



## Batcat (Sep 25, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> You have a fixation on KILLING people with guns, why is that?


The object of using lethal force for legitimate self defense should be to stop the attack not to kill the attacker.

Often people survive being shot several times with a handgun if they receive prompt medical attention.


----------



## Vagabond63 (Sep 25, 2022)

Blues Man said:


> What you never heard of anyone breaking a window to get in a house?
> What about kicking a door in?  It isn't that hard even with a deadbolt.  Just about any door knob on any home can be taken out with a drill in less than 30 seconds


Perhaps in America. Most new builds in the UK come with composite doors and multi-point locking systems; basically impervious to police battering rams, drills, even gunfire in some cases. They can be retro-fitted for a few hundred £, much cheaper than a firearm. Even windows are similar with security double glazed panels that can't be shattered by the old method of hitting a corner with a hammer and chisel/sharp pointed object. America must be so primitive.


----------



## Vagabond63 (Sep 25, 2022)

2aguy said:


> Hot Burglaries in various countries...
> 
> https://www.researchgate.net/figure/nternational-Comparisons-of-Hot-Burglary-Rates_tbl1_5196898
> 
> ...


Oooh, censoring your own posts, how revealing. 

Missed this bit,
*"The proposition that widespread gun ownership serves as a deterrent to residential burglary is widely touted by advocates, but the evidence is weak, consisting of anecdotes, interviews with burglars, casual comparisons with other countries, and the like."*


----------



## Hollie (Sep 25, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> Perhaps in barbarous America...


Perhaps you're just an ignorant ass.









						Countries Compared by Crime > Total crimes per 1000. International Statistics at NationMaster.com
					

<a href=/graph-T/mil_not>Note</a>: <a href=/cat/Crime>Crime</a> statistics are often better indicators of prevalence of law enforcement and willingness to report <a href=/cat/Crime>crime</a>, than actual prevalence. Figures expressed per thousand population for the same year.



					www.nationmaster.com
				




Total crimes per 1000: *Countries Compared*​*UK 109.96

US 41.29*


----------



## Vagabond63 (Sep 25, 2022)

Batcat said:


> The object of using lethal force for legitimate self defense should be to stop the attack not to kill the attacker.
> 
> Often people survive being shot several times with a handgun if they receive prompt medical attention.


So you agree, you can stop an attack without resorting to lethal force every time.


----------



## Vagabond63 (Sep 25, 2022)

Hollie said:


> Perhaps you're just an ignorant ass.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Someone's getting desperate. ROFL! "Crime statistics are often better indicators of prevalence of law enforcement and willingness to report crime, *than actual prevalence.*"


----------



## Hollie (Sep 25, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> Someone's getting desperate. ROFL!


Someone's embarrassed about their phony claims, re: The Great Satan. ROFL!

Barbarous UK'ers.


----------



## Vagabond63 (Sep 25, 2022)

Hollie said:


> Someone's embarrassed about their phony claims, re: The Great Satan. ROFL!


WTF?! Time for you to take your meds and have a lie down methinks...


----------



## Hollie (Sep 25, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> WTF?! Time for you to take your meds and have a lie down methinks...


How embarrassing for you. 

What a shame. Perhaps if your authoritarian / socialist paradises had a Constitution that acknowledged rights and freedoms like here in the Great Satan, your authoritarian / socialist paradises wouldn't be such lawless, crime-ridden Hell Holes.


----------



## Hollie (Sep 25, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> Perhaps in America. Most new builds in the UK come with composite doors and multi-point locking systems; basically impervious to police battering rams, drills, even gunfire in some cases. They can be retro-fitted for a few hundred £, much cheaper than a firearm. Even windows are similar with security double glazed panels that can't be shattered by the old method of hitting a corner with a hammer and chisel/sharp pointed object. America must be so primitive.


Golly gee. It sure reads like your authoritarian / socialist paradise is forced to build mini-fortresses to protect individuals from violent criminals. If I had to live in a place that required building materials that were, ''basically impervious to police battering rams, drills, even gunfire'' I'd sure want a firearm as a last resort to protect me and my family.

_Europenises_ are so primitive!


----------



## Batcat (Sep 25, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> YSo you agree, you can stop an attack without resorting to lethal force every time.











						Lethal force Definition | Law Insider
					

Sample Contracts and Business Agreements




					www.lawinsider.com
				




_Lethal force_ definition​_Lethal force means any use of force likely to cause death or serious physical injury, including the use of a firearm, carotid neck hold, or strike to the head, neck, or throat with a hard object._

Much depends on the nature of the attack.

If I feel the attacker intends to put me in the hospital for an extended period of time or six feet under, I will use lethal force to stop his attack. Be aware I am 76 years old, out of shape and physically handicapped. I am not able to fight like I could when I was half my age. Back then I was student in jujitsu.

However, I might shoot an attacker several times with my snub nosed .38 revolver (which I legally carry concealed), and my attacker could survive if he gets prompt medical attention.


----------



## 2aguy (Sep 25, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> None of these incidents have anything to do with "violent criminals bypassing security measures"  so please provide examples where these career criminals bypassed/overcame secure houses.




Wow.....I give you instances where normal people come face to face, and actual physical assault with violent criminals and you dismiss them out of hand and try to play funny with your security measures....

You are not a serious human being.....you don't understand human nature, human history, truth, facts or reality.........

Do you think the Wealthy couple in their nice home had your security measures?  The story where they made the wife walk across broken glass and broke her toes with a hammer?

You are a seriously unserious human.


----------



## 2aguy (Sep 25, 2022)

Billo_Really said:


> Don't you dare act like you are pro police, if you refuse to condemn the riots on Jan. 6th.




You aren't going to derail the thread with left wing talking points......


----------



## Billo_Really (Sep 25, 2022)

2aguy said:


> You aren't going to derail the thread with left wing talking points......


You sounded like you are pro-police and you are not. Furthermore, 2nd Amendments rights do not reduce crime!


----------



## 2aguy (Sep 25, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> WTF?! Time for you to take your meds and have a lie down methinks...




this........

*An elderly couple were terrorised by a towering naked stranger who broke into their home and allegedly threatened the husband with rape and murder. *
*
Scott Presswood, who stands at 6ft4, kicked the front door down into Majorie and Ted Bosworth's home before smashing the patio doors with a cast iron barbecue, then battered the latter with it.

The attacker told Ted "I am Scott and I am naked" as Marjorie hid in a bedroom screaming.

The 78-year-old victim said she and her husband "still feel like prisoners in our own home" two years after the ordeal which saw Presswood jailed, reports the Manchester Evening News.

The unhinged dad-of-two knocked on the door of the rural home in April 2020 while the couple were watching a film, before breaking in.

Marjorie described how Ted was in the lounge "being beaten by a 6ft4ins naked guy fighting for his life".
*











						Couple terrorised in own home by naked 6ft4 man who 'threatened to rape husband'
					

Scott Presswood was jailed after breaking into Marjorie and Ted Bosworth's rural Derbyshire home while naked before forcing Ted to take his clothes off and beating him with their own barbecue




					www.mirror.co.uk
				





*Versus in the United States....*

Four People, Dog Stabbed During Buffalo Grove Home Invasion

*CHICAGO (CBS) —* Four people and their family dog were stabbed early Wednesday, when two masked men broke into their home in north suburban Buffalo Grove.

Police said the homeowner grabbed a handgun during the home invasion, and opened fire, chasing off the suspects.

Just after midnight, police responded to a home invasion in the 400 block of St. Marys Parkway, and found several windows had been broken, and the front door had been forced open. Officers discovered a bloody scene inside.

Witnesses told police that two masked attackers had broken in, and a man armed with a large hunting knife repeatedly stabbed the 49-year-old homeowner. Three other people and the family’s German Shepherd also were stabbed.

During the struggle, the homeowner retrieved a handgun, and opened fire, causing the attackers to run away.

“It’s pretty shocking,” neighbor Bob Meyer said. “This neighborhood is very, very quiet. We’ve lived here for 30-plus years, and this stuff just doesn’t happen here; just doesn’t happen.”


----------



## 2aguy (Sep 25, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> Perhaps in America. Most new builds in the UK come with composite doors and multi-point locking systems; basically impervious to police battering rams, drills, even gunfire in some cases. They can be retro-fitted for a few hundred £, much cheaper than a firearm. Even windows are similar with security double glazed panels that can't be shattered by the old method of hitting a corner with a hammer and chisel/sharp pointed object. America must be so primitive.




So. you twit...you have all the passive security measures you love.....and the guy simply removes the air conditioning unit......oh, that's right, you Brits tend not to like air conditioning.....but here in the U.S. we actually have it...

Mom-to-be shoots intruder with her pink pistol
*A man is recovering from a gunshot wound after he broke into a Birmingham home early Friday morning and came face-to-face with a pregnant woman who was ready to protect herself and her baby.*

*Marquita Turner said she heard the suspect remove the air conditioning unit from a side window around 2:20 a.m. Once the unit was out, the suspect climbed right inside, but he likely wasn’t expecting to meet Turner with her pink Taurus Millennium 9mm.*
*
“I grabbed my gun when I woke up. And I walked out of the door and I saw them, the guy in the hallway … he was kind of close to me so I shot and he fell,” Turner told reporters with alocal NBC affiliate.
Turner said she fired two or three rounds and struck the intruder once, then turned on the lights and called the police. Once they arrived, the suspect was taken to the hospital for treatment. He was expected to survive.
*
*Turner, who is currently five months pregnant, said she purchased her gun two years ago for protection, but she’s never been to the range or otherwise had any type of training or target practice. Still, she’s glad she had the means to protect herself when she needed to. She said she doesn’t know what could have happened had she not be able to protect herself and her unborn baby.*


----------



## 2aguy (Sep 25, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> Oooh, censoring your own posts, how revealing.
> 
> Missed this bit,
> *"The proposition that widespread gun ownership serves as a deterrent to residential burglary is widely touted by advocates, but the evidence is weak, consisting of anecdotes, interviews with burglars, casual comparisons with other countries, and the like."*




This is the story you have to explain....

*An elderly couple tortured in their home by a gang of robbers had a full kettle of boiling water poured over them three times as their attackers demanded to know where they had money hidden. *
*
The couple, aged 66 and 64, were subjected to both physical and mental torture during their terrifying two-hour ordeal in their home in the village of Halstead, near Sevenoaks, Kent. 


*
*The couple were watching television in their living room of their £750,000 house when three men armed with knives kicked down the front door and burst in. *









						Couple had full kettle of boiling water poured over them THREE times
					

The couple, aged 66 and 64, were subjected to both physical and mental torture during their terrifying two-hour ordeal in their home in the village of Halstead, near Sevenoaks, Kent.




					www.dailymail.co.uk


----------



## 2aguy (Sep 25, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> Oooh, censoring your own posts, how revealing.
> 
> Missed this bit,
> *"The proposition that widespread gun ownership serves as a deterrent to residential burglary is widely touted by advocates, but the evidence is weak, consisting of anecdotes, interviews with burglars, casual comparisons with other countries, and the like."*




Cook is a well known anti-gun fanatic.......but thanks for adding his extra comments to that work.......


----------



## 2aguy (Sep 25, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> Oooh, censoring your own posts, how revealing.
> 
> Missed this bit,
> *"The proposition that widespread gun ownership serves as a deterrent to residential burglary is widely touted by advocates, but the evidence is weak, consisting of anecdotes, interviews with burglars, casual comparisons with other countries, and the like."*




Of course you ignored this....

http://www.davekopel.com/2A/LawRev/LawyersGunsBurglars.htm#FN;F64

http://www.davekopel.com/2A/LawRev/LawyersGunsBurglars.htm#FN;F64

C. In Homes and on the Street​Rengert and Wasilchick's book about how burglars work reveals that fear of armed homeowners played a major role in determining burglary targets. Burglars reported that they avoided late-night burglaries because, "That's the way to get shot." [FN63] Some burglars said that they shun burglaries in neighborhoods with people of mostly a different race because, "You'll get shot if you're caught there." [FN64]
The most thorough study of burglary patterns was a St. Louis survey of 105 currently active burglars. [FN65] The authors observed, "One of the most serious risks faced by residential burglars is the possibility of being injured or killed by occupants of a target. Many of the offenders we spoke to reported that this was far and away their greatest fear." [FN66] Said one burglar: "I don't think about gettin' caught, I think about gettin' gunned down, shot or somethin'...'cause you get into some people's houses...quick as I come in there, boom, they hit you right there. That's what I think about."
Another burglar explained:


> Hey, wouldn't you blow somebody away if someone broke into your house and you don't know them? You hear this noise and they come breakin' in the window tryin' to get into your house, they gon' want to kill you anyway. See, with the police, they gon' say, "Come out with your hands up and don't do nothing foolish!" Okay, you still alive, but you goin' to jail. But you alive. You sneak into somebody's house and they wait til you get in the house and then they shoot you.. . .See what I'm sayin'? You can't explain nothin' to nobody; you layin' down in there dead! [FN67]


In contrast, Missouri is one of only nine states which has no provision for citizens to be issued permits to carry handguns for protection. Thus, a criminal in St. Louis faces a very high risk that the target of a home invasion may have a lawful gun for protection, but minimal risk that the target of a street robbery will have a lawful firearm for defense. The same authors who studied active St. Louis burglars conducted another study of active St. Louis armed robbers. [FN68] 


*They found that "ome of the offenders who favored armed robbery over other crimes *355 maintained that the offense was also safer than burglary. . .." [FN69] As one armed robber put it: "My style is, like,  don't have to be up in nobody's house in case they come in; they might have a pistol in the house or something." [FN70]*_


On the streets, many of the St. Louis robbers "routinely targeted law-abiding citizens," [FN71] who, unlike their counterparts in most American states, were certain not to be carrying a gun for protection. Law-abiding citizens were chosen as robbery victims because, as one robber noted, "You don't want to pick somebody dangerous; they might have a gun themselves." [FN72]


In addition to the St. Louis study, the Wright-Rossi National Institute of Justice surveyed felony prisoners in eleven state prison systems on the impact of victim firearms on burglar behavior. [FN73] In that survey, seventy-four percent of the convicts who had committed a burglary or violent crime agreed, "One reason burglars avoid houses when people are at home is that they fear being shot." [FN74]_


----------



## Billo_Really (Sep 25, 2022)

2aguy said:


> Britain doesn't have the 2nd Amendment.....so criminals run free......if you are a citizen, you are at their mercy and if you go to far in trying to protect yourself....you will go to prison....
> 
> Leftists in the U.S. are destroying our police and releasing violent criminals...
> 
> ...


You said, "...leftists are destroying our police..." and I can't comment on that?


----------



## 2aguy (Sep 25, 2022)

Billo_Really said:


> You said, "...leftists are destroying our police..." and I can't comment on that?



Nope...you brought up Jan. 6....off topic.....you twit.


----------



## Billo_Really (Sep 25, 2022)

2aguy said:


> Nope...you brought up Jan. 6....off topic.....you twit.


You inferred you support police, I was just trying to find out if you really do.


----------



## 2aguy (Sep 25, 2022)

Billo_Really said:


> You inferred you support police, I was just trying to find out if you really do.



You brought up Jan. 6.....off topic.


----------



## Vagabond63 (Sep 26, 2022)

2aguy said:


> So. you twit...you have all the passive security measures you love.....and the guy simply removes the air conditioning unit......oh, that's right, you Brits tend not to like air conditioning.....but here in the U.S. we actually have it...


We have air conditioning both in the UK and in Spain, none of it so primitive that it can be removed from a window!


----------



## Vagabond63 (Sep 26, 2022)

2aguy said:


> Of course you ignored this....
> 
> http://www.davekopel.com/2A/LawRev/LawyersGunsBurglars.htm#FN;F64
> 
> http://www.davekopel.com/2A/LawRev/LawyersGunsBurglars.htm#FN;F64


No choice as the links don't work.


----------



## 2aguy (Sep 26, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> No choice as the links don't work.




Here.....this should work....









						Lawyers, Guns & Burglars
					

This Article looks in detail at a very large positive externality which is overlooked in by firearms prohibitionists: the major role that widespread gun ownersh



					papers.ssrn.com


----------



## Vagabond63 (Sep 27, 2022)

2aguy said:


> Here.....this should work....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


This article cites information that  is almost 40 years old. Times have changed since the 1980's-90's. Yes burglaries do occur today when people are at home, mainly because householders turn off their security systems when they are at home or leave their doors unlocked.


----------



## 2aguy (Sep 27, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> This article cites information that  is almost 40 years old. Times have changed since the 1980's-90's. Yes burglaries do occur today when people are at home, mainly because householders turn off their security systems when they are at home or leave their doors unlocked.




So you think burglaries are happening less than they were 40 years ago...then admit that criminals can and do confront people in Britain because they turn off their passive security when they are home.........got it.


----------



## Vagabond63 (Sep 27, 2022)

2aguy said:


> So you think burglaries are happening less than they were 40 years ago...then admit that criminals can and do confront people in Britain because they turn off their passive security when they are home.........got it.


In the UK, yes.  There has been a downward trend as more and more householders install security cameras, and more secure doors/windows. No guns required. The people who suffer burglaries are, in the main, those who remain blissfully unaware of the possibility, because they live in "nice areas" or in mansions and have the mentality "it will never happen to me here".

In 2021/22 there were 266,283 burglaries in England and Wales, a slight decline on the previous year. Since 2002/03 (890,099)  there has been a clear trend of falling burglary offences, with the most recent year having the fewest burglaries in this time period. Burglary offences in England and Wales 2022 | Statista


----------



## Hollie (Sep 27, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> In the UK, yes.  There has been a downward trend as more and more householders install security cameras, and more secure doors/windows. No guns required. The people who suffer burglaries are, in the main, those who remain blissfully unaware of the possibility, because they live in "nice areas" or in mansions and have the mentality "it will never happen to me here".
> 
> In 2021/22 there were 266,283 burglaries in England and Wales, a slight decline on the previous year. Since 2002/03 (890,099)  there has been a clear trend of falling burglary offences, with the most recent year having the fewest burglaries in this time period. Burglary offences in England and Wales 2022 | Statista



On the other hand, while you're barricading yourself into your mini-fortresses, the criminals are waiting outside your door. 









						Robbery offences in England and Wales 2022 | Statista
					

In 2021/22 there were approximately 66,288 robbery offences reported by the police in England and Wales, compared with 59,659 in the previous year.




					www.statista.com
				




In 2021/22 there were approximately 66,288 robbery offences reported by the police in England and Wales, compared with 59,659 in the previous year. During the provided time period, the reporting year with the highest number of robberies was 2002/03, when there were 110,271



Odd, that. 


2021/22 the number of crime offences recorded by the police in England and Wales rose to approximately 6.3 million, compared with 5.43 million in the previous reporting year. This was the highest number of crimes recorded in the provided time period, with the low number of crimes reported in 2020/21 likely due to the Coronavirus restrictions in place throughout that reporting year. With the exception of 2020/21, the number of crime offences in England and Wales has been rising at a fairly rapid pace, increasing from just over 4 million in 2013/14, to the high seen in the most recent year.




Perhaps it's best you just never leave your homemade fortress.


----------



## Vagabond63 (Sep 27, 2022)

Hollie said:


> On the other hand, while you're barricading yourself into your mini-fortresses, the criminals are waiting outside your door.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yes robberies have also declined, thanks for noticing. As for "crimes" you do know that includes fraud. Guns are a bit useless when dealing with computer fraud, etc.


----------



## Hollie (Sep 27, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> Yes robberies have also declined, thanks for noticing. As for "crimes" you do know that includes fraud. Guns are a bit useless when dealing with computer fraud, etc.


Yes, robberies declined thanks to the China virus lock downs. Thanks for side stepping.

As for crimes, do you know that includes robberies... identified in the link. Scolding a criminal with a strongly worded email is probably not going to do much to prevent robberies.


----------



## Vagabond63 (Sep 30, 2022)

Hollie said:


> Yes, robberies declined thanks to the China virus lock downs. Thanks for side stepping.


Well, we were talking about burglaries until you "side stepped" to robberies, and they too were in decline as your source shows before the Covid pandemic. They have spiked since, but the trend is still downwards.


----------



## Hollie (Sep 30, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> Well, we were talking about burglaries until you "side stepped" to robberies, and they too were in decline as your source shows before the Covid pandemic. They have spiked since, but the trend is still downwards.


An increase in crime doesn't suggest a downward trend.
From my earlier link: ''In 2021/22 there were approximately 66,288 robbery offences reported by the police in England and Wales, compared with 59,659 in the previous year.''

You noted earlier that, ''Most new builds in the UK come with composite doors and multi-point locking systems; basically impervious to police battering rams, drills, even gunfire in some cases.''

The above suggests that people are taking measures that amount to building mini-fortresses to protect themselves from a crime rate you claim is decreasing. What do you suggest homeowners do when the criminals begin using battering rams, drills and gunfire to enter their homes? Pelt the criminals with crumpets?


----------



## 2aguy (Sep 30, 2022)

Hollie said:


> An increase in crime doesn't suggest a downward trend.
> From my earlier link: ''In 2021/22 there were approximately 66,288 robbery offences reported by the police in England and Wales, compared with 59,659 in the previous year.''
> 
> You noted earlier that, ''Most new builds in the UK come with composite doors and multi-point locking systems; basically impervious to police battering rams, drills, even gunfire in some cases.''
> ...




Or simply wait outside for them to go to work or get home at night.....which is what will likely increase, increasing the chance of torture, and rape...


----------



## Vagabond63 (Oct 2, 2022)

Hollie said:


> An increase in crime doesn't suggest a downward trend.
> From my earlier link: ''In 2021/22 there were approximately 66,288 robbery offences reported by the police in England and Wales, compared with 59,659 in the previous year.''
> 
> You noted earlier that, ''Most new builds in the UK come with composite doors and multi-point locking systems; basically impervious to police battering rams, drills, even gunfire in some cases.''
> ...


It does when you look at the historical trend, not just cherry pick two years. 

No, people are not building "mini fortresses", local governments, police and insurance companies have put pressure on developers to include modern security features in new houses that they build. Developers use these as selling points to new buyers, so it's a win-win scenario. 

Given ''Most new builds in the UK come with composite doors and multi-point locking systems; basically impervious to police battering rams, drills, even gunfire in some cases.'' If criminals turn up with battering rams, drills and gunfire, the householder just has to call the local police and get out the popcorn while they wait for the drama to unfold, so they and their neighbours can watch it all on their security cameras. It's all part of living in a civilised society, clearly sadly lacking in America.


----------



## 2aguy (Oct 2, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> It does when you look at the historical trend, not just cherry pick two years.
> 
> No, people are not building "mini fortresses", local governments, police and insurance companies have put pressure on developers to include modern security features in new houses that they build. Developers use these as selling points to new buyers, so it's a win-win scenario.
> 
> Given ''Most new builds in the UK come with composite doors and multi-point locking systems; basically impervious to police battering rams, drills, even gunfire in some cases.'' If criminals turn up with battering rams, drills and gunfire, the householder just has to call the local police and get out the popcorn while they wait for the drama to unfold, so they and their neighbours can watch it all on their security cameras. It's all part of living in a civilised society, clearly sadly lacking in America.




Yeah.......I guess all burglaries have ended in Britain.........right?

You are so naive and silly.........passive security is all you think is necessary?   

And you didn't address the women who actually used guns to defeat 3 attackers who also had guns....


----------



## Vagabond63 (Oct 2, 2022)

2aguy said:


> Or simply wait outside for them to go to work or get home at night.....which is what will likely increase, increasing the chance of torture, and rape...


Oh, yes, of course your favourite wet dream scenario. Sorry to disillusion you, but many communities in the UK have a "Neighbourhood Watch" who use security cameras and even their Mk1 eyeballs to spot and report any suspicious behaviours like armed thugs hiding in bushes waiting for John at number 24 to come home, to the police...
Again, one of the benefits of living in a civilised society.


----------



## 2aguy (Oct 2, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> Oh, yes, of course your favourite wet dream scenario. Sorry to disillusion you, but many communities in the UK have a "Neighbourhood Watch" who use security cameras and even their Mk1 eyeballs to spot and report any suspicious behaviours like armed thugs hiding in bushes waiting for John at number 24 to come home, to the police...
> Again, one of the benefits of living in a civilised society.




LOL......you really are delusional.


----------



## Vagabond63 (Oct 2, 2022)

2aguy said:


> Yeah.......I guess all burglaries have ended in Britain.........right?
> 
> You are so naive and silly.........passive security is all you think is necessary?
> 
> And you didn't address the women who actually used guns to defeat 3 attackers who also had guns....


Oh dear, you post ancient videos to make a non point. Nothing to address that I haven't before.


----------



## Vagabond63 (Oct 2, 2022)

2aguy said:


> LOL......you really are delusional.


Projecting again, time for your meds, methinks.


----------



## 2aguy (Oct 2, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> Oh dear, you post ancient videos to make a non point. Nothing to address that I haven't before.




You ask what do you do if the attackers have a gun?   I answer with actual video of a two women, with their own guns, driving off the armed, multiple criminals........and you post that drivel......

You are a silly human being.


----------



## Vagabond63 (Oct 2, 2022)

2aguy said:


> You are a silly human being.


Projecting again, it really is time for your meds.


----------



## Hollie (Oct 2, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> It does when you look at the historical trend, not just cherry pick two years.
> 
> No, people are not building "mini fortresses", local governments, police and insurance companies have put pressure on developers to include modern security features in new houses that they build. Developers use these as selling points to new buyers, so it's a win-win scenario.
> 
> Given ''Most new builds in the UK come with composite doors and multi-point locking systems; basically impervious to police battering rams, drills, even gunfire in some cases.'' If criminals turn up with battering rams, drills and gunfire, the householder just has to call the local police and get out the popcorn while they wait for the drama to unfold, so they and their neighbours can watch it all on their security cameras. It's all part of living in a civilised society, clearly sadly lacking in America.



Oh, dear. Being lectured about a ''civilized society''.









						United Kingdom Crime Facts & Stats
					

Find out how United Kingdom ranks internationally on Crime. Get the facts and compare to other countries!



					www.nationmaster.com
				




UK - Total crimes per 1000 population  109.96










						United States Crime Facts & Stats
					

Find out how United States ranks internationally on Crime. Get the facts and compare to other countries!



					www.nationmaster.com
				




Great Satan - Total crimes per thousand  41.92



Gee whiz. You civilized folks are well more than twice as, you know, uncivilized as us here in the Great Satan.


----------



## FredVegbarfuss (Oct 3, 2022)

No guns for me, it is mot part of my faith. But it would bebad to keep guns from being in people's possession.


----------



## Blues Man (Oct 3, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> So you agree, you can stop an attack without resorting to lethal force every time.


And the fact is that not every defensive gun use results in a death.  In fact the vast majority do not result in death because for the most part  piece of shit criminals will run when they see their intended victim is armed.


----------



## Vagabond63 (Oct 3, 2022)

Hollie said:


> Oh, dear. Being lectured about a ''civilized society''.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


*Sigh* From your own source, "Crime statistics are often better indicators of prevalence of law enforcement and willingness to report crime, than actual prevalence."

We civilised people prefer to let the police handle matters than to take things into our own hands and shoot people we don't like.

Just out of curiosity, are you a Muslim, as you keep calling America the Great Satan?


----------



## Vagabond63 (Oct 3, 2022)

Blues Man said:


> And the fact is that not every defensive gun use results in a death.  In fact the vast majority do not result in death because for the most part  piece of shit criminals will run when they see their intended victim is armed.


So why not carry a blank firer or bb gun?


----------



## Blues Man (Oct 3, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> So why not carry a blank firer or bb gun?


Because that one time a piece of shit doesn't run is the time you get killed.

I've seen people hit with Tasers and not go down so a BB ain't going to stop anyone.


----------



## M14 Shooter (Oct 3, 2022)

Blues Man said:


> Because that one time a piece of shit doesn't run is the time you get killed.


Because when you need deadly force, there is no substitute.


----------



## Hollie (Oct 3, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> *Sigh* From your own source, "Crime statistics are often better indicators of prevalence of law enforcement and willingness to report crime, than actual prevalence."
> 
> We civilised people prefer to let the police handle matters than to take things into our own hands and shoot people we don't like.
> 
> Just out of curiosity, are you a Muslim, as you keep calling America the Great Satan?


Yes. You copied and pasted that before. If you have a source to dispute the numbers, you can post that.

I'm not responsible for your hurt feelings.


----------



## Vagabond63 (Oct 4, 2022)

Hollie said:


> Yes. You copied and pasted that before. If you have a source to dispute the numbers, you can post that.
> 
> I'm not responsible for your hurt feelings.


Can't be bothered as even your own source contradicts you:









						Countries Compared by Crime > Total crimes. International Statistics at NationMaster.com
					

<a href="../../../../graph-T/mil_not">Note</a>: <a href="../../../../cat/Crime">Crime</a> statistics are often better indicators of prevalence of law enforcement and willingness to report <a href="../../../../cat/Crime">crime</a>, than actual prevalence.



					www.nationmaster.com
				




Nationmaster is a poor website in any event.
Next?


----------



## Hollie (Oct 4, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> Can't be bothered as even your own source contradicts you:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


“Can’t be bothered”. What you’re really writing is, “can’t refute the numbers”.

Identify what is contradicted by the numbers. 

Nation master is a poor website because the data hurts your feelings? Why is a website responsible for your hurt feelings?


----------



## Vagabond63 (Oct 4, 2022)

M14 Shooter said:


> Because when you need deadly force, there is no substitute.


But when do you need deadly force? 
Arguing over a hat? 
Lengthy prison term imposed in shooting case linked to stolen beanie

A drunken brawl outside a nightclub? 








						2 Men Killed In Shooting Outside Club Risqué In Philadelphia's Wissinoming Section, Police Say
					

Police say the shooting stemmed from a physical altercation outside of Club Risqué.




					www.cbsnews.com
				




Family arguments at Christmas? 








						New York personal trainer arrested and accused of shooting his parents on Christmas
					

Dino Tomassetti, 29, was being held without bail in Bergen County Jail in New Jersey, pending extradition.




					www.nbcnews.com
				




Punishing your daughter when she sneaks into your home late after a night out? 911 caller says husband shot 16-year-old daughter because he thought she was an intruder

If your Pizza is taking too long to cook? https://www.charlotteobserver.com/news/nation-world/national/article256082512.html

When guns are so easy to obtain, it's not just the criminals you have to worry about.


----------



## Vagabond63 (Oct 4, 2022)

Hollie said:


> “Can’t be bothered”. What you’re really writing is, “can’t refute the numbers”.
> 
> Identify what is contradicted by the numbers.
> 
> Nation master is a poor website because the data hurts your feelings? Why is a website responsible for your hurt feelings?


No, I really can't be bothered as your *own website* contradicts your position/argument/rant. Too easy, but thanks for playing.
As to my feelings, I'm perfectly fine, you seem to be the one obsessed with "hurt feelings".


----------



## Hollie (Oct 4, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> But when do you need deadly force?
> Arguing over a hat?
> Lengthy prison term imposed in shooting case linked to stolen beanie
> 
> ...



When knives are easy to obtain.

Shouldn’t the government require you folks to turn in your table utensils for plastic dinnerware?









						Ten charts on the rise of knife crime in England and Wales
					

Knife offences remain a major subject of public interest. But what are the facts?



					www.bbc.com


----------



## Hollie (Oct 4, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> No, I really can't be bothered as your *own website* contradicts your position/argument/rant. Too easy, but thanks for playing.
> As to my feelings, I'm perfectly fine, you seem to be the one obsessed with "hurt feelings".


Yes. Your tender feelings are hurt so you’re forced to babble on about a “poor website”. You made no case where my *own* *website, *(note my use of bolded text for dramatic effect), contradicts the numbers so learn to deal with your hurt feelings.


----------



## Blues Man (Oct 4, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> But when do you need deadly force?
> Arguing over a hat?
> Lengthy prison term imposed in shooting case linked to stolen beanie
> 
> ...


Maybe you want to actually learn the US laws on the use of deadly force for self defense.

That way you won't sound so ignorant


----------



## Vagabond63 (Oct 4, 2022)

Hollie said:


> Yes. Your tender feelings are hurt so you’re forced to babble on about a “poor website”. You made no case where my *own* *website, *(note my use of bolded text for dramatic effect), contradicts the numbers so learn to deal with your hurt feelings.


Oh this is too easy, from your own source,

"Although knife crime is on the increase, it should be seen in context. It's relatively unusual for a violent incident to involve a knife, and rarer still for someone to need hospital treatment.
Most violence is caused by people hitting, kicking, shoving or slapping someone, sometimes during a fight and often when they're drunk; the police figures on violence also include crimes of harassment and stalking.
The Crime Survey for England and Wales, which includes offences that aren't reported to police, indicates that overall levels of violence have fallen by about a quarter since 2013."

Here's a freebie for you,
"However, the police-recorded statistics - which tend to pick up more "high harm" crimes - have indicated that the most serious violent crime is increasing."

However when you look deeper,
"The explanations for rising knife crime have ranged from police budget cuts, to gang violence and disputes between drug dealers."

Oh, here's the result of a ten second Google search,








						Trump's knife crime claim: how do the US and UK compare?
					

Donald Trump has sought to defend the use of guns stateside by shining a light on knife crime in London. But is the UK really any worse than the US?




					www.euronews.com
				












						America's knife crime figures worse than Britain despite Republican's claims
					

Marjorie Taylor Greene claimed Britain has 'mass stabbings' while Donald Trump tried to suggest that the UK has an epidemic of knife crime comparable to the US's shootings problem




					www.mirror.co.uk
				




Oh, if you want to read a good analysis, there's this.








						Dispelling The Myth
					

Why The United Kingdom IS NOT More Violent Than The United States




					dispellingthemythukvsusguns.wordpress.com
				




Finally, I feel fine, thanks for asking.


----------



## Vagabond63 (Oct 4, 2022)

Blues Man said:


> Maybe you want to actually learn the US laws on the use of deadly force for self defense.
> 
> That way you won't sound so ignorant


Well either accidentally or deliberately, you missed my point. Having so many "normal" people able to own guns is a recipe for disaster. If you want to own a gun, you need to be trained on when and how to use it. There are thousands of examples of "normal" Americans misusing their guns or abusing their 2A rights. As an ex-gun owner myself, I've no objection to people owning guns, but they need some form of rigorous certification/training if they are to be allowed to carry them around on a daily basis.


----------



## Blues Man (Oct 4, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> Well either accidentally or deliberately, you missed my point. Having so many "normal" people able to own guns is a recipe for disaster. If you want to own a gun, you need to be trained on when and how to use it. There are thousands of examples of "normal" Americans misusing their guns or abusing their 2A rights. As an ex-gun owner myself, I've no objection to people owning guns, but they need some form of rigorous certification/training if they are to be allowed to carry them around on a daily basis.


No it isn't really,  But then again you Brits think having freedom of speech is a recipe for disaster so that tells me all I need to know about your opinions on freedom.

And in the US it is unconstitutional to require any form of payment in order to exercise a right.  I bet you'd be OK with a poll tax too right?


----------



## Hollie (Oct 4, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> Oh this is too easy, from your own source,
> 
> "Although knife crime is on the increase, it should be seen in context. It's relatively unusual for a violent incident to involve a knife, and rarer still for someone to need hospital treatment.
> Most violence is caused by people hitting, kicking, shoving or slapping someone, sometimes during a fight and often when they're drunk; the police figures on violence also include crimes of harassment and stalking.
> ...


Oh, yes. This is too easy. The data shows that knife crimes in England and Wales are steadily increasing. Yes. As the data shows, "high harm" crimes - have indicated that the most serious violent crime is increasing."

Time for an "assault knife ban", in England and Wales.


----------



## Vagabond63 (Oct 4, 2022)

Hollie said:


> Time for an "assault knife ban", in England and Wales.


Already in place, do keep up. Selling, buying and carrying knives and weapons


----------



## Vagabond63 (Oct 4, 2022)

Blues Man said:


> No it isn't really,  But then again you Brits think having freedom of speech is a recipe for disaster so that tells me all I need to know about your opinions on freedom.
> 
> And in the US it is unconstitutional to require any form of payment in order to exercise a right.  I bet you'd be OK with a poll tax too right?



Maybe you want to actually learn the UK laws on freedom of speech.

That way you won't sound so ignorant 


			https://www.lawble.co.uk/freedom-of-speech/
		


With every "right" there is a "responsibility"


----------



## 2aguy (Oct 4, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> But when do you need deadly force?
> Arguing over a hat?
> Lengthy prison term imposed in shooting case linked to stolen beanie
> 
> ...




Yes...meanwhile the other 1.1 million rapes, robberies, murders, beatings, stabbings and mass public shootings stopped by Americans with their legal guns won't be covered by you....

Meanwhile, again....you have to explain the discrepancy between the 15 million innocent men, women and children murdered in Europe between 1939-1945 after you guys banned and confiscated guns......and the fact that if you took all gun murder in the United States for our entire 246 year history, we come out to about 2,500,000 million people murdered.


Keep in mind, you Europeans murdered 15 million innocent men, women and children in that 6 years.....and only stopped when Americans with gun forced you to stop.....

The 2,500.000 or so who were murdered by guns in the U.S. over our entire 246 year history were primarily criminals murdered by other criminals, and the friends and family of criminals....caught in the crossfire of their criminal associates...

You never address the 15 million.....I wonder why?


----------



## 2aguy (Oct 4, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> Well either accidentally or deliberately, you missed my point. Having so many "normal" people able to own guns is a recipe for disaster. If you want to own a gun, you need to be trained on when and how to use it. There are thousands of examples of "normal" Americans misusing their guns or abusing their 2A rights. As an ex-gun owner myself, I've no objection to people owning guns, but they need some form of rigorous certification/training if they are to be allowed to carry them around on a daily basis.




Normal people in the U.S. aren't the ones shooting anyone....

The people shooting people in the U.S. are criminals, just like the people shooting people in the U.K. are criminals.....

The examples of Americans who misuse their guns are nowhere near the number of government agents misusing their guns in Europe.......to the tune of 15 million innocent men, women and children murdered at gun point by their own governments...who made these innocent people give up their guns before they mass murdered them......

You really have nothing to teach us, other than how to not commit mass murder of civilians....


----------



## 2aguy (Oct 4, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> Well either accidentally or deliberately, you missed my point. Having so many "normal" people able to own guns is a recipe for disaster. If you want to own a gun, you need to be trained on when and how to use it. There are thousands of examples of "normal" Americans misusing their guns or abusing their 2A rights. As an ex-gun owner myself, I've no objection to people owning guns, but they need some form of rigorous certification/training if they are to be allowed to carry them around on a daily basis.




And you think that the criminals in Britain will refrain from using guns simply ....... Because?..........You are naive and foolish....
*
Two in three police force areas in England and Wales are experiencing rising gun crime, with one force facing levels six times higher than a decade ago, Guardian analysis of Home Office data has found.*
-------

*Concerns are now being raised about the growing availability of firearms in parts of the north of England and the Midlands as some police forces are struggling to tackle rising gun crime with fewer officers than they had a decade ago.*
*
The sharpest rise is in the north-east, where gun crime has more than tripled from an average of 91 firearms offences a year between 2009 and 2012, to 294 a year between 2019 and 2022.
*
*In the Cleveland police area, firearms offences have risen almost sixfold, from a yearly average of 22 to 127. Durham, Sussex, Lincolnshire, Northumbria, South Yorkshire, Norfolk and Kent police have all seen numbers more than double in 10 years*










						Gun crime rising in two-thirds of police force areas in England and Wales
					

Exclusive: analysis reveals firearms offences have increased in 29 out of 43 forces over past decade




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## 2aguy (Oct 4, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> Well either accidentally or deliberately, you missed my point. Having so many "normal" people able to own guns is a recipe for disaster. If you want to own a gun, you need to be trained on when and how to use it. There are thousands of examples of "normal" Americans misusing their guns or abusing their 2A rights. As an ex-gun owner myself, I've no objection to people owning guns, but they need some form of rigorous certification/training if they are to be allowed to carry them around on a daily basis.




You would have to explain this then....and you can't....

Over  27 years,  from 1993  to the year 2015, we went from 200 million guns in private hands in the 1990s and 4.7 million people carrying guns for self defense in 1997...to close to 400-600 million guns in private hands and over 19.4 million people carrying guns for self defense in 2019 (in 2020 that number is 21.52 million)...guess what happened...

New Concealed Carry Report For 2020: 19.48 Million Permit Holders, 820,000 More Than Last Year despite many states shutting down issuing permits because of the Coronavirus - Crime Prevention Research Center


*-- gun murder down 49%

--gun crime down 75%

--violent crime down 72%*

Gun Homicide Rate Down 49% Since 1993 Peak; Public Unaware

*Compared with 1993, the peak of U.S. gun homicides, the firearm homicide rate was 49% lower in 2010, and there were fewer deaths, even though the nation’s population grew. The victimization rate for other violent crimes with a firearm—assaults, robberies and sex crimes—was 75% lower in 2011 than in 1993. Violent non-fatal crime victimization overall (with or without a firearm) also is down markedly (72%) over two decades.
======*

The gun murder and gun suicide rates in the U.S. both remain below their peak levels. There were 6.2 gun murders per 100,000 people in 2020, below the rate of 7.2 recorded in 1974. 


What the data says about gun deaths in the U.S.


*This means that access to guns does not create gun crime........*

Why do our democrat party controlled cities have gun crime problems?

*What changed in 2015?*

The democrat party did 3 things...

1) they began a war on the police that forced officers to stop pro active police work, allowing criminals to run wild.  The police stopped pro-active police work, retired in massive numbers, quit the job in massive numbers...this allowed criminals to run free without fear of being stopped......

2) they began to release the most violent and dangerous gun offenders over and over again, not matter how many times they had been arrested for gun crimes

3) they used their brown shirts, blm/antifa to burn, loot and murder for 7 months in primarily black neighborhoods while the democrat party mayors ordered the police to stand down and not stop them......in order to hurt Trump during the election.


----------



## M14 Shooter (Oct 4, 2022)

2aguy said:


> *This means that access to guns does not create gun crime........*


Correct.
But they aren't interested in the truth.


----------



## Vagabond63 (Oct 4, 2022)

2aguy said:


> Yes...meanwhile the other 1.1 million rapes, robberies, murders, beatings, stabbings and mass public shootings stopped by Americans with their legal guns won't be covered by you....


Ooh, it's gone down now from 2.5 million , to 1.2 million, now 1.1 million... in other words you have no idea at all and just make up numbers based on glorified opinion polls, sorry "studies"


2aguy said:


> Meanwhile, again....you have to explain the discrepancy between the 15 million innocent men, women and children murdered in Europe between 1939-1945 after you guys banned and confiscated guns...


No I really don't. The answer is obvious to anyone with a brain, not pushing an agenda.


----------



## Hollie (Oct 4, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> Already in place, do keep up. Selling, buying and carrying knives and weapons


Do try to compose a coherent argument. While your shrill screeching is causing all the dogs in my neighborhood to start barking, how is that restrictions on sales and carrying of knives still allows crimes with knives? Is that because criminals don't obey laws?

I'll note that you seem to forever miss the point that here in the Great Satan, there is a Constitutional right to bear arms. The data shows that overwhelming, legal firearms owners are not the people committing gun cimes.


----------



## Vagabond63 (Oct 4, 2022)

2aguy said:


> Normal people in the U.S. aren't the ones shooting anyone....





2aguy said:


> And you think that the criminals in Britain will refrain from using guns simply





2aguy said:


> You would have to explain this then....and you can't....


Ah, what took you so long? Yet another cut and paste torrent of BS, designed to obfuscate and deflect. Seems I win again...


----------



## 2aguy (Oct 4, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> Ooh, it's gone down now from 2.5 million , to 1.2 million, now 1.1 million... in other words you have no idea at all and just make up numbers based on glorified opinion polls, sorry "studies"
> 
> No I really don't. The answer is obvious to anyone with a brain, not pushing an agenda.




Yes....you are a twit.....I gave you the CDC number, the 2.5 million is Gary Kleck's number and the Department of Justice Research was 1.5 million times a year.......3 out of 19 studies on gun self defense....

Here......let me show you, again, all of the research into gun self defense.........

Keep in mind, the guys at the Centers for Disease Control, Gary Kleck, and the guys at the Department of Justice are all anti-gunners......when they did the research.   The CDC and DOJ did their best to dismiss Kleck's numbers but when they did their own research, creating their own studies, to destroy Kleck's work, they failed, and ended up accidentally supporting the truth that Americans use their legal guns millions of times a year to stop rapes, robberies, murders, beatings, stabbings and mass public shootings.....

A quick guide to the studies and the numbers.....the full lay out of what was studied by each study is in the links....

The name of the group doing the study, the year of the study, the number of defensive gun uses and if police and military defensive gun uses are included.....notice the bill clinton and obama defensive gun use research is highlighted.....

GunCite-Gun Control-How Often Are Guns Used in Self-Defense 

GunCite Frequency of Defensive Gun Use in Previous Surveys

Field...1976....3,052,717 ( no cops, no military)

DMIa 1978...2,141,512 ( no cops, no military)

L.A. TIMES...1994...3,609,68 ( no cops, no military)

Kleck......1994...2.5 million ( no cops, no military)


2021 national firearm survey, Prof. William English, PhD. designed by Deborah Azrael of Harvard T. Chan School of public policy, and  Mathew Miller, Northeastern university.......1.67 million defensive uses annually.

CDC...1996-1998... 1.1 million  averaged over  those years.( no cops, no military)

Obama's CDC....2013....500,000--3million

--------------------


Bordua...1977...1,414,544

DMIb...1978...1,098,409 ( no cops, no military)

Hart...1981...1.797,461 ( no cops, no military)

Mauser...1990...1,487,342 ( no cops,no military)

Gallup...1993...1,621,377 ( no cops, no military)

DEPT. OF JUSTICE...1994...1.5 million ( the bill clinton study)

Journal of Quantitative Criminology--- 989,883 times per year."

(Based on survey data from a 2000 study published in the _Journal of Quantitative Criminology_,[17] U.S. civilians use guns to defend themselves and others from crime at least 989,883 times per year.[18])

Paper: "Measuring Civilian Defensive Firearm Use: A Methodological Experiment." By David McDowall and others. _Journal of Quantitative Criminology_, March 2000. Measuring Civilian Defensive Firearm Use: A Methodological Experiment - Springer


-------------------------------------------

Ohio...1982...771,043

Gallup...1991...777,152

Tarrance... 1994... 764,036 (no cops, no military)

Lawerence Southwich Jr. 400,000 fewer violent crimes and at least 800,000 violent crimes deterred..

2021 national firearms survey..

The survey was designed by Deborah Azrael of the Harvard T.H. Chan School of Public Health, and Matthew Miller of Northeastern University,
----
The survey further finds that approximately a third of gun owners (31.1%) have used a firearm to defend themselves or their property, often on more than one occasion, and it estimates that guns are used defensively by firearms owners in approximately 1.67 million incidents per year. Handguns are the most common firearm employed for self-defense (used in 65.9% of defensive incidents), and in most defensive incidents (81.9%) no shot was fired. Approximately a quarter (25.2%) of defensive incidents occurred within the gun owner's home, and approximately half (53.9%) occurred outside their home, but on their property. About one out of ten (9.1%) defensive gun uses occurred in public, and about one out of twenty (4.8%) occurred at work.
2021 National Firearms Survey

*Clinton's study by the DOJ....*

https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles/165476.pdf

*Applying those restrictions leaves 19 NSPOF respondents (0.8 percent of the sample), representing 1.5 million defensive users. This estimate is directly comparable to the well-known estimate of Kleck and Gertz, shown in the last column of exhibit 7. While the NSPOF estimate is smaller, it is statistically plausible that the difference is due to sampling error. Inclusion of multiple DGUs reported by half of the 19 NSPOF respondents increases the estimate to 4.7 million DGUs.



n the third column of Table 6.2, we apply the Kleck and Gertz (1995) criteria for "genuine" DGUs (type A), leaving us with just 19 respondents. They represent 1.5 million defensive users. This estimate is directly comparable to the well-known Kleck and Gertz estimate of 2.5 million, shown in the last

While ours is smaller, it is staistically plausible that the difference  is due to sampling error.  to the  when we include the multiple DGUs victim. defensive reported by half our 19 respondents, our estimate increases to 4.7 milli

While ours is smaller, it is statistically plausible that the difference petrator; in most cases (69 percent), the is due to sampling error. Note that  when we include the multiple DGUs reported by half our 19 respondents, our estimate increases to 4.7 million DGUs.
 ----

As shown in Table 6.6, the defender fired his or her gun in 27 percent of these incidents (combined "fire warning shots" and "fire at perpetrator" percentages, though some respondents reported firing both warning shots and airning at the perpetrator). Forty percent of these were "warning shots," and about a third were aimed at the perpetrator but missed. The perpetrator was wounded by the crime victim in eight percent of all DGUs. In nine percent of DGUs the victim captured and held the perpetrator at gunpoint until the police could arrive.*

*Obama's study...*

Priorities for Research to Reduce the Threat of Firearm-Related Violence | Priorities for Research to Reduce the Threat of Firearm-Related Violence |The National Academies Press


----------



## 2aguy (Oct 4, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> Ah, what took you so long? Yet another cut and paste torrent of BS, designed to obfuscate and deflect. Seems I win again...




Yes....I post truth, facts and reality, which you can't dismiss.......and you bitch about the information.....typical, left wing doofus.


----------



## Vagabond63 (Oct 4, 2022)

Hollie said:


> Do try to compose a coherent argument.


Clearly you have difficulties in reading and comprehension.


Hollie said:


> While your shrill screeching is causing all the dogs in my neighborhood to start barking,


It seems your hearing aid is also defunct, I'd get it looked at.


----------



## 2aguy (Oct 4, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> Ah, what took you so long? Yet another cut and paste torrent of BS, designed to obfuscate and deflect. Seems I win again...




You Europeans murdered 15 million innocent men, women and children after you banned and confiscated guns....you asshats still have to answer for that........these were not criminals, they were normal people, rounded up by your fascist buddies in the countries conquered by the German socialists....then murdered.......

This wasn't by a Mongol Horde, Japanes Samurai, or Medieval Knights....this was post 1917 in modern Europe....with modern Universities, science, philosophy, democratic institutions and the rule of law....

You told those people....give up your guns, and your governments will keep you safe....

They gave up their guns....and you guys murdered 15 million people in 6 years.....more people murdered in 6 years than people murdered by criminals with guns in the U.S. in our entire 246 year history....

You have nothing to teach us ....


----------



## Vagabond63 (Oct 4, 2022)

2aguy said:


> I post truth, facts and reality,


Not sure you understand objective truth, facts and reality, you really need to keep taking your meds.


----------



## 2aguy (Oct 4, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> Not sure you understand objective truth, facts and reality, you really need to keep taking your meds.




And you have run out of stupid things to post......so resort to this.........your failure is noted and laughed at....


----------



## Vagabond63 (Oct 4, 2022)

2aguy said:


> You Europeans murdered 15 million innocent men, women and children after you banned and confiscated guns....you asshats still have to answer for that........these were not criminals, they were normal people, rounded up by your fascist buddies in the countries conquered by the German socialists....then murdered.......
> 
> This wasn't by a Mongol Horde, Japanes Samurai, or Medieval Knights....this was post 1917 in modern Europe....with modern Universities, science, philosophy, democratic institutions and the rule of law....
> 
> ...


Utter drivel.


----------



## Hollie (Oct 4, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> Ah, what took you so long? Yet another cut and paste torrent of BS, designed to obfuscate and deflect. Seems I win again...


I think most everyone has seen the poster who can't refute facts declare themselves the winner.


----------



## 2aguy (Oct 4, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> Utter drivel.




You can't respond to this truth, so you post that.......you are such a lame asshole......pathetic...but expected from someone such as you...


----------



## 2aguy (Oct 4, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> Utter drivel.




Does it still burn your ass that Americans had to sail across the ocean to save your country?  And that we had to do that twice....with guns.....?


----------



## Vagabond63 (Oct 4, 2022)

2aguy said:


> And you have run out of stupid things to post.....


Well unlike yourself, I don't have hard disks full of cut and paste drivel. Clearly you will never run out of stupid things to post, you just keep on trpeating the same drivel time after time.


----------



## Vagabond63 (Oct 4, 2022)

2aguy said:


> Does it still burn your ass that Americans had to sail across the ocean to save your country?  And that we had to do that twice....with guns.....?


Not at all. You do remember, that in WW1 the AEF was supplied with guns by Britain and France, not to mention aircraft and artillery, oh and ammunition.


----------



## Hollie (Oct 4, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> Clearly you have difficulties in reading and comprehension.
> 
> It seems your hearing aid is also defunct, I'd get it looked at.


Your non-response to what I posted is just a way to calm an emotional requirement that allows you to declare yourself a winner while unable to offer a coherent argument.


----------



## 2aguy (Oct 4, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> Well unlike yourself, I don't have hard disks full of cut and paste drivel. Clearly you will never run out of stupid things to post, you just keep on trpeating the same drivel time after time.




And you fail to actually refute the research, the Pew results about increased gun ownership and lower crime rates.....and post that....

You f*****g loser.


----------



## 2aguy (Oct 4, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> Not at all. You do remember, that in WW1 the AEF was supplied with guns by Britain and France, not to mention aircraft and artillery, oh and ammunition.




Yeah.......That really did the trick.......meanwhile, your asses were saved by American guns....twice....after you banned and confiscated guns from your own people, then slaughtered them to the tune of 15 million innocent men, women and children........


----------



## Vagabond63 (Oct 4, 2022)

Hollie said:


> I think most everyone has seen the poster who can't refute facts declare themselves the winner.


Oh, you've met M14 shooter then.


----------



## Vagabond63 (Oct 4, 2022)

2aguy said:


> refute the research,


What research, certainly not scientific in any shape or form, merely glorified opinion polls extrapolated. The same methods used by your "researchers" would generate  figures of millions of Americans being abducted by aliens every year if applied to those people claiming being abducted by aliens being extrapolated across the whole population.


----------



## 2aguy (Oct 4, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> What research, certainly not scientific in any shape or form, merely glorified opinion polls extrapolated. The same methods used by your "researchers" would generate  figures of millions of Americans being abducted by aliens every year if applied to those people claiming being abducted by aliens being extrapolated across the whole population.




Actual research techniques by trained researchers.......who were anti-gun, trying to prove gun control points.  They failed.

We have both private and public researchers, trained, professional researchers from different fields of study......and cause it doesn't support what you want, all of it is fake...

You really are a dumb ass.......how do you feed and dress yourself?


----------



## Vagabond63 (Oct 4, 2022)

2aguy said:


> We have both private and public researchers, trained, professional researchers from different fields of study......and cause it doesn't support what you want, all of it is fake...


I've never said it is fake, but every one of your "studies" takes a small sample, and extrapolates the results into *estimates* not *facts.* If these studies were truly scientific they would all come up with the same results, and be able to be replicated at any time and anywhere.


----------



## Vagabond63 (Oct 4, 2022)

2aguy said:


> You really are a dumb ass.......how do you feed and dress yourself?


Clearly better than you can...


----------



## Blues Man (Oct 4, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> Maybe you want to actually learn the UK laws on freedom of speech.
> 
> That way you won't sound so ignorant
> 
> ...


Really?









						Concerns about free speech in the UK after anti-monarchy protester arrested for shouting 'who elected?' King Charles III
					

Lawyers and human rights charities have raised concerns after anti-monarchy protesters were arrested at royal mourning events for Queen Elizabeth.




					www.businessinsider.in
				












						Britain Turns Offensive Speech Into a Police Matter
					

The nation that gave the world John Milton and his cry for the "liberty to utter" is now at the forefront of shutting speech down.




					reason.com
				












						Seeing Brits arrested for protesting against the monarchy makes me glad I’m American
					

We have a very different culture of free speech here than in the UK, where hate speech and libel laws are much more aggressive – so much so that, to my mind, they are unforgivably draconian




					www.independent.co.uk


----------



## Hollie (Oct 4, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> Oh, you've met M14 shooter then.


That does nothing to refute the data presented to you.


----------



## Vagabond63 (Oct 5, 2022)

Blues Man said:


> Really?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Really. From your source (the Reason article):
"On 19 December 2012, to strike a balance between freedom of speech and criminality, the Director of Public Prosecutions issued interim guidelines, clarifying when social messaging is eligible for criminal prosecution under UK law. Only communications that are credible threats of violence, harassment, or stalking (such as aggressive Internet trolling) which specifically targets an individual or individuals, or breaches a court order designed to protect someone (such as those protecting the identity of a victim of a sexual offence) will be prosecuted. Communications that express an "unpopular or unfashionable opinion about serious or trivial matters, or banter or humour, even if distasteful to some and painful to those subjected to it" will not. Communications that are merely "grossly offensive, indecent, obscene or false" will be prosecuted only when it can be shown to be necessary and proportionate." 

As far as I'm aware, the anti-monarchists were later released without any charges.


----------



## Vagabond63 (Oct 5, 2022)

Hollie said:


> That does nothing to refute the data presented to you.


Don't have to, your own sources contradict your chart, also see post #155


----------



## Hollie (Oct 5, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> Don't have to, your own sources contradict your chart, also see post #155


Nothing is contradicted.


----------



## Blues Man (Oct 6, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> Really. From your source (the Reason article):
> "On 19 December 2012, to strike a balance between freedom of speech and criminality, the Director of Public Prosecutions issued interim guidelines, clarifying when social messaging is eligible for criminal prosecution under UK law. Only communications that are credible threats of violence, harassment, or stalking (such as aggressive Internet trolling) which specifically targets an individual or individuals, or breaches a court order designed to protect someone (such as those protecting the identity of a victim of a sexual offence) will be prosecuted. Communications that express an "unpopular or unfashionable opinion about serious or trivial matters, or banter or humour, even if distasteful to some and painful to those subjected to it" will not. Communications that are merely "grossly offensive, indecent, obscene or false" will be prosecuted only when it can be shown to be necessary and proportionate."
> 
> As far as I'm aware, the anti-monarchists were later released without any charges.


The fact that your government arrests people for nothing but saying the "wrong" things  isn't a problem for you huh?









						10 Times Britain Said 'No' To Free Speech - Listverse
					

In the United States, freedom of expression, thought, and assembly are protected by the Constitution. But gaze across the pond and you quickly learn that




					listverse.com
				












						British Police Arrest At Least 3,395 People for 'Offensive' Online Comments in One Year
					

British police forces arrested at least nine people a day for "offensive" comments on social media n 2016.




					www.breitbart.com
				












						UK mom arrested, searched in front of children over ‘offensive’ online comments
					

On Monday, Catholic feminist and mother of five Caroline Farrow was arrested while cooking dinner for her husband and children at their home in Guildford, England.




					thepostmillennial.com
				




*In the United Kingdom, the crime of "malicious communications" carries a maximum sentence of two years in prison, a hefty fine, or both.*

Go ahead and keep trying to tell me your king allows freedom of speech and reveal yourself to be a fool


----------



## Vagabond63 (Oct 6, 2022)

Blues Man said:


> he fact that your government arrests people for nothing but saying the "wrong" things isn't a problem for you huh?


No, not if, "Only communications that are credible threats of violence, harassment, or stalking (such as aggressive Internet trolling) which specifically targets an individual or individuals, or breaches a court order designed to protect someone (such as those protecting the identity of a victim of a sexual offence) will be prosecuted. Communications that express an "unpopular or unfashionable opinion about serious or trivial matters, or banter or humour, even if distasteful to some and painful to those subjected to it" will not. Communications that are merely "grossly offensive, indecent, obscene or false" will be prosecuted only when it can be shown to be necessary and proportionate."

Oh, and our King has nothing to do with making laws, do keep up.


----------



## Blues Man (Oct 6, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> No, not if, "Only communications that are credible threats of violence, harassment, or stalking (such as aggressive Internet trolling) which specifically targets an individual or individuals, or breaches a court order designed to protect someone (such as those protecting the identity of a victim of a sexual offence) will be prosecuted. Communications that express an "unpopular or unfashionable opinion about serious or trivial matters, or banter or humour, even if distasteful to some and painful to those subjected to it" will not. Communications that are merely "grossly offensive, indecent, obscene or false" will be prosecuted only when it can be shown to be necessary and proportionate."
> 
> Oh, and our King has nothing to do with making laws, do keep up.



Yeah those "malicious" Facebook posts are just sooooooo terrifying. 

You have no problem with the government arresting a person because someone said they were mean on Facebook   You people are literally a bunch of children who whine to big daddy government over such trivialities.

This is the reason you will never be able to understand Americans and our stance on liberty and intrusive government.


----------



## Hollie (Oct 6, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> Don't have to, your own sources contradict your chart, also see post #155


False. See post :#155.


----------



## Vagabond63 (Oct 8, 2022)

Blues Man said:


> Yeah those "malicious" Facebook posts are just sooooooo terrifying.
> 
> You have no problem with the government arresting a person because someone said they were mean on Facebook   You people are literally a bunch of children who whine to big daddy government over such trivialities.
> 
> This is the reason you will never be able to understand Americans and our stance on liberty and intrusive government.


To you or I, probably not, but to a bullied teenager who may or may not be from an ethic minority?

Keep telling yourself that. You've been brainwashed from birth about "freedom" in America, the truth is you are manipulated by the wealthy upper class to make them wealthier by pursuing "the American dream".


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## Blues Man (Oct 8, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> To you or I, probably not, but to a bullied teenager who may or may not be from an ethic minority?
> 
> Keep telling yourself that. You've been brainwashed from birth about "freedom" in America, the truth is you are manipulated by the wealthy upper class to make them wealthier by pursuing "the American dream".



Cry me a fucking river.  The best thing that could happen to some teenagers today is to have to fight their own battles.

And I know quite well how it works here.

I was orphaned at 14 and homeless for 2 years as a teenager after leaving a shit foster home.

I was emancipated as a minor at 17, started working for myself and by the time I was 30 I owned 3 rental properties and had a successful construction and renovation business.

So don't try to tell me you know what is or isn't possible in the US.

You just don't understand people that value their rights and freedoms more than they value the fucking government.


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## 2aguy (Oct 8, 2022)

Blues Man said:


> Cry me a fucking river.  The best thing that could happen to some teenagers today is to have to fight their own battles.
> 
> And I know quite well how it works here.
> 
> ...




He is such a doofus........


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