# Gaza Students: Clean the World of Jews



## Lipush (May 21, 2013)

The Hamas-affiliated student union in Gaza published a cartoon Tuesday in which a person whose body is made of a Palestinian Authority flag is seen throwing a Star of David &#8211; one of the best-known Jewish symbols &#8211; into a garbage can.

Text under the picture says, &#8220;Keep the world clean.&#8221;

The cartoon uses a Star of David rather than an explicitly Israeli symbol, indicating that it is meant to refer to Judaism or the Jewish nation as a whole and not the state of Israel alone.

The student union in question is known as the Islamic Bloc &#8211; in Arabic, al-Kutla al-Islamiya. It operates in high schools, universities and other educational institutions in Gaza. Its primary purpose is to teach the next generation about the importance of, in Hamas&#8217; words, freeing Palestine from the Israeli occupation.

Hamas views all of Israel as occupied territory and justifies attacks on Israeli civilians as &#8220;resistance.&#8221;







http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/168183#.UZudz0qrXIU

----------------------

Well done Hamas. Good to know some people here think you're peaceful!


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## Book of Jeremiah (May 21, 2013)

Very scary talk.


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## Saigon (May 21, 2013)

Yes, that's vile...although I don't think it will surprise many people. 

Nor will it find any supporters here, I think.


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## irosie91 (May 21, 2013)

Saigon said:


> Yes, that's vile...although I don't think it will surprise many people.
> 
> Nor will it find any supporters here, I think.




In fact,   Saigon----it would find many supporters here and MILLIONS in that noble 
Pancasila  indonesia   shariah sewer-----in which the annhilation of the jews of the 
world is   ------an aspect of the   BEAUTY OF PANCASILA.      But thanks for choosing 
your side with such alacrity------I began to wonder.    For the record     DHIMMIA  is 
just another word for   genocide------it simply includes   the concept of  "SQUEEZE 
EVERYTHING OUT OF THEM THAT YOU CAN"   before they are dead-----something 
like the  shariah shit nazi work camps of  germany


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## Roudy (May 21, 2013)

Amin Al Husseini: Nazi Father of Jihad, Al Qaeda, Arafat, Saddam Hussein and the Muslim Brotherhood - Tell The Children The Truth - Homepage


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## Roudy (May 21, 2013)

Lipush said:


> Saigon said:
> 
> 
> > Yes, that's vile...although I don't think it will surprise many people.
> ...


In fact...Most of the pro Pali posters on this board consider Hamas "freedom fighters". LOL


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## Saigon (May 21, 2013)

irosie91 said:


> In fact,   Saigon----it would find many supporters here and MILLIONS in that noble
> Pancasila  indonesia   shariah sewer-----in which the annhilation of the jews of the
> world is   ------an aspect of the   BEAUTY OF PANCASILA.      But thanks for choosing
> your side with such alacrity------I began to wonder.    For the record     DHIMMIA  is
> ...



Actually, we know that this is not true, because recent research conducted by Pew found that around 88% of Indonesians do not accept violence against civilians for any reason.


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## Lipush (May 21, 2013)

Roudy said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> > Saigon said:
> ...



I consider the Lehi and Etzel freedom fighters.

Hey, if _they_ can.....


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## Saigon (May 21, 2013)

Lipush said:


> I consider the Lehi and Etzel freedom fighters.
> 
> Hey, if _they_ can.....



That's a fair point - but I think most sane people consider that the potency of the violence needs to be proportionate to the extent of the oppression. 

It's difficult to consider acts conducted against the Nazis by Jews in the Krakowa Ghetto to be terrorism, or even by the ANC against aparthied, but likewise it is difficult to see Baader-Meinhoff or the Weather Underground as anything but.


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## High_Gravity (May 21, 2013)

Lipush said:


> The Hamas-affiliated student union in Gaza published a cartoon Tuesday in which a person whose body is made of a Palestinian Authority flag is seen throwing a Star of David  one of the best-known Jewish symbols  into a garbage can.
> 
> Text under the picture says, Keep the world clean.
> 
> ...



The Palestinians want the Jews dead, their not shy about it either. The only people who think otherwise are niaeve shits like Tinmore and Sherri.


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## Saigon (May 21, 2013)

High_Gravity said:


> The Palestinians want the Jews dead, their not shy about it either.



Some do. Most do not. 

We need to be very careful of sweeping generalisations about an entire people.


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## High_Gravity (May 21, 2013)

Saigon said:


> Yes, that's vile...although I don't think it will surprise many people.
> 
> *Nor will it find any supporters here, I think*.



Oh it will.


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## Lipush (May 21, 2013)

Saigon said:


> High_Gravity said:
> 
> 
> > The Palestinians want the Jews dead, their not shy about it either.
> ...



Yes, but we don't hear any opinions rejecting those views, either...


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## Saigon (May 21, 2013)

Lipush said:


> Yes, but we don't hear any opinions rejecting those views, either...



Most black South Africans had never heard a white South African condemn apartheid either - and yet we know that hundreds of thousands of them voted to end apartheid.

Several Palestinians have told me they oppose terror, because I'm not Israeli nor American.


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## High_Gravity (May 21, 2013)

Saigon said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> > Yes, but we don't hear any opinions rejecting those views, either...
> ...



Why should that matter? they hate Israelis and Americans that much?


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## Lipush (May 21, 2013)

Saigon said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> > Yes, but we don't hear any opinions rejecting those views, either...
> ...



You can't see that, but behind the screen, I almost smile.

And how many of them, I wonder, "reject" terror simply because they know we kick their asses in response?

Don't answer that.


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## Lipush (May 21, 2013)

Saigon, recent poll showed that more than 60% of Palestinians support terror attacks against Israel.


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## Lipush (May 21, 2013)

I think you can, but on the religious board.

see if I care?


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## Kondor3 (May 21, 2013)

Can you imagine the outrage - worldwide - if this had been a stick-figure clothed in an Israeli flag - tossing a Palestinian symbol into the garbage can?

And yet _this_ is so low-profile that it's damned-near nonexistent.

That's the way of it in 2013... pretty much the way it was in 1948, too...


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## Lipush (May 21, 2013)

mhmmmm


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## RoccoR (May 21, 2013)

Kondor3,  _et al,_

We may not like the idea it conveys, but you have to admit, they are crafty.



Kondor3 said:


> Can you imagine the outrage - worldwide - if this had been a stick-figure clothed in an Israeli flag - tossing a Palestinian symbol into the garbage can?
> 
> And yet _this_ is so low-profile that it's damned-near nonexistent.
> 
> That's the way of it in 2013... pretty much the way it was in 1948, too...


*(COMMENT)*

I've noticed in the last 24 to 30 months, that the nature of the anti-Israeli Propaganda is becoming more and more sophisticated.  It's like someone gave them a shot of Madison Avenue in the arm.

I might not appreciate what all they say; but, I have to admire how they say it.

Most Respectfully,
R


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## Kondor3 (May 21, 2013)

RoccoR said:


> Kondor3,  _et al,_
> 
> We may not like the idea it conveys, but you have to admit, they are crafty.
> 
> ...


I'd say that's dead on target....then again... when you have 65 years to practice before you begin to get it right... that (almost) smacks of even a broken clock being right twice a day... or a work of Shakespeare coming out of an infinite number of monkeys with an infinite number of typewriters... they were bound to begin getting better at it sometime, sooner or later. From their perspective, they're about 65 years too late. They don't have much left to work with, nor time, for that matter. Still clumsy, but they are getting better at it, and they do have their 'moments'.


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## irosie91 (May 21, 2013)

Quote: Originally Posted by Saigon  
.

Several Palestinians have told me they oppose terror, because I'm not Israeli nor American.


   What is   "several palestinians"    Saigon?   I worked with educated muslims for more than 
40 years from dozens of different islamic lands  starting about 45 years ago.     None guessed 
that I am a jew ------and most assumed me not to be a jew ----unless I told them sometimes 
months LATER.      I also encountered some palestinians.      Overall ----even EDUCATED 
muslims------deep down----in the depths of the way men alone and far from home 
confide in females of the "LISTENING VARIETY"       support the way to the  
MYSTICAL UTOPIAN CALIPHATE------even if it means stepping over lots of dead bodies---
more to the point of this thread      -------ISRAEL SITS ON MUSLIM LAND


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## Roudy (May 21, 2013)

*Poll Shows 85% of PA Arabs Support Terror*
Two recent polls find a vast majority of Arabs supporting terror attacks and a growing Israeli majority opposed to further withdrawals.
By Ezra HaLevi

Two recent polls find a vast majority of Arabs supporting terror attacks and a growing Israeli majority opposed to further withdrawals.

A recent Palestinian Authority poll shows that 84 percent of PA Arabs approve of the massacre at Merkaz HaRav Yeshiva in Jerusalem, where eight students were murder and ten wounded.

The poll, carried out by Ramallah-based pollster Khalil Shikaki, interviewed 1,270 PA Arabs. 64 percent support the rocket attacks on Israeli cities and towns such as Sderot and Ashkelon launched from Hamas-controlled Gaza. Those who oppose the attacks don&#8217;t necessarily do so on moral grounds, but rather strategic considerations.

*The Palestinian Terror Index: A Majority Support Terror*

Analysis released by the Palestinian Center for Policy and Survey Research contains a wealth of insights which have been ignored by the media.
By:	 Frimet and Arnold Roth
Published: January 20th, 2013


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## High_Gravity (May 21, 2013)

Osama Bin Ladens death was mourned by them, that tells me all I need to know.


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## Roudy (May 21, 2013)

High_Gravity said:


> Osama Bin Ladens death was mourned by them, that tells me all I need to know.


[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bek0f0WWyvc]Hamas Leader mourns Bin Laden's death - YouTube[/ame]


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## Saigon (May 21, 2013)

irosie91 said:


> Quote: Originally Posted by Saigon
> .
> 
> Several Palestinians have told me they oppose terror, because I'm not Israeli nor American.
> ...



Firstly, as I have explained before, I am not convinced exiles are necesarily a very representative group of people. Interesting, definitely - but hardly typical.

Secondly, believing Israel has stolen land is not the same thing as supporting terror attacks against civilians. 

I have not discussed this particular point with very many Palestinians, but it is something three or four have mentioned. One guy in Damascus told me at length how he had told his kids not to join the army because he didn't want them to fight Israel.


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## Saigon (May 21, 2013)

High_Gravity said:


> Osama Bin Ladens death was mourned by them, that tells me all I need to know.



Again - some did, most didn't. 

Sweeping generalisations aren't a great place to start a discussion.


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## Saigon (May 22, 2013)

Lipush said:


> Saigon said:
> 
> 
> > Lipush said:
> ...



I agree with you - many do think that way, but that's fine, isn't it?

If I was Palstinian that would certainly be _one _reason that I would not want another war.


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## Lipush (May 22, 2013)

Saigon said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> > Saigon said:
> ...



Not good enough reason in my book.

But I guess that's not the issue here.


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## Godboy (May 22, 2013)

Damn, so I guess the jews are going to march through the streets, burning flags and effigies, blow a few people up, and force the cartoonist to go into hiding for the rest of his life? Isnt that standard procedure for these situations?


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## Lipush (May 22, 2013)

LoL


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## sealadaigh (May 22, 2013)

Lipush said:


> The Hamas-affiliated student union in Gaza published a cartoon Tuesday in which a person whose body is made of a Palestinian Authority flag is seen throwing a Star of David  one of the best-known Jewish symbols  into a garbage can.
> 
> Text under the picture says, Keep the world clean.
> 
> ...



israelis and their histrionics...LOL. perhaps a stick figure of a palestinian dumping a menorah into the trash would be more to your liking. like that wouldn't have religious connotations.

the star of david is obviously symbolic of israel in this case and not all jews. what? do ya think HAMAS plans to invade brooklyn?

y'all have way to many skys falling and too many wolves in the meadows where sheep graze. besides, hamas is your baby conceived in an effort to marginalise the PLO.

i don't think of HAMAS as peaceful at all. i just think of them as a lesser despot...but more importantly, an indiogenous despot and quite unlike the despot initially established by europeans. you, and arutz 7, make them appear less despotic by portraying them as worse than they are.

ya know, if israel really wanted to curtail the militant factions of HAMAS, they would release marwan barghouti, but they can't do that becaause barghouti would tie israel's tail in knots in negotiation.

too funny...the star of david in the cartoon is meant to represent all jews and not the state of israel...LOL.


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## Lipush (May 22, 2013)

*the star of david is obviously symbolic of israel in this case and not all jews.*

It symbolized Hamas hates all Jews.

Something to which you can probably relate.

Always amuses me you are in a hurry to defend Hamas' obvious hatred, but put horns on our heads and every moronic fanat, to you represents us all.

Busted for hypocrisy, again, Sealy?


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## Kondor3 (May 22, 2013)

reabhloideach said:


> "..._too funny...the star of david in the cartoon is meant to represent all jews and not the state of israel...LOL._"


"Too funny?" Uhhhh... yeah... sure... yer just crackin'-up the audience with that one...


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## Truthseeker420 (May 22, 2013)

High_Gravity said:


> Saigon said:
> 
> 
> > Lipush said:
> ...



says Israeli hate groups.

If Americans Knew - what every American needs to know about Israel/Palestine


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## sealadaigh (May 22, 2013)

RoccoR said:


> Kondor3,  _et al,_
> 
> We may not like the idea it conveys, but you have to admit, they are crafty.
> 
> ...



they are beginning to catch up with the zionist propaganda machine and are forming stronger ties among young people, particularly on american college caampuses while israel appears committed to languish with their past successes which will become their future mistakes.

look at history and you can see the future. zionist jews have already lost their vision of a jewish state. if they don't learn a new dance, they could lose their state altogether.


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## sealadaigh (May 22, 2013)

Kondor3 said:


> reabhloideach said:
> 
> 
> > "..._too funny...the star of david in the cartoon is meant to represent all jews and not the state of israel...LOL._"
> ...



it was a stupid allegation in the article.


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## Kondor3 (May 22, 2013)

reabhloideach said:


> "..._they are beginning to catch up with the zionist propaganda machine_..."


9-11 cancels all of that out... and will, for several generations to come... including the present crop of American young folk...


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## MHunterB (May 22, 2013)

Seal, in case you hadn't noticed, 'CURRENTLY' the Mogen Dovid *IS* a religious symbol.  The 'cartoon' could as easily have shown an Israeli flag being trashed:  it's an easy enough one to draw.

But it didn't.  

So you are once again grossly mistaken.


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## Lipush (May 22, 2013)

Oh he knows.

He knows exactly why he says what he said.

Hamas- always right

Israel- always wrong.

simple picture for seal


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## sealadaigh (May 22, 2013)

Lipush said:


> *the star of david is obviously symbolic of israel in this case and not all jews.*
> 
> It symbolized Hamas hates all Jews.
> 
> ...



this is from the article...it does seem to contradict a bit of what you are saying about a hatred of all jews.

"The cartoon uses a Star of David rather than *an explicitly Israeli symbol, indicating that it is meant to refer to Judaism or the Jewish nation as a whole and not the state of Israel alone.*

The student union in question is known as the Islamic Bloc  in Arabic, al-Kutla al-Islamiya. It operates in high schools, universities and other educational institutions in Gaza. Its *primary purpose is to teach the next generation about the importance of, in Hamas words, freeing Palestine from the Israeli occupation."*

Gaza Students: Clean the World of Jews - Middle East - News - Israel National News

also, i mean, we have a figure of a palestinian flag throwing, and try to stay with me here even if it is hard for you, what appeard to be a symbol of an israeli flag in the trash bin. ya think they might have been going with a flag theme.

where in hell am i defending HAMAS' obvious hatred. the fact that i do not succumb to your and arutz 7's hysteria is not a defense of HAMAS. i called them a lesser despot.

and correctly and unemotionally interpreting an ad by palestinian students is not putting horns on israel. they do that well enough themselves and i am only to happy to point that out...but i didn't even do that in my post.

what hypocrisy?

HAMAS wants to free palestine from israeli occupation, a very admirable and ambitious goal in my opinion but that need not and does not meaning ridding the world of jews. you only hurt yourself by saying such things.


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## Lipush (May 22, 2013)

Hamas wants to throw the Jews into the sea.

That includes the ones from Ashdod, Netanya, and Be'er Sheva. "Palestine" for them is all of Israel!

They have said "This is not about the occupation. If the occupiers will leave Palestine, we will haunt them down".

They want to destroy our country.

We want to destroy them-*a very admirable and ambitious goal in my opinion*


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## Kondor3 (May 22, 2013)

If the Palestinians are going to throw the Israelis out of Palestine, they had better hurry, before the last few 'drops' of Palestine evaporate into thin air... 

Palestine is like a chicken with its head just cut off: running about the barnyard, spraying blood and making great flapping noises, but already dead... only to figure it out after a while... falling-over, lying down, and going quiet and still...


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## sealadaigh (May 22, 2013)

MHunterB said:


> Seal, in case you hadn't noticed, 'CURRENTLY' the Mogen Dovid *IS* a religious symbol.  The 'cartoon' could as easily have shown an Israeli flag being trashed:  it's an easy enough one to draw.
> 
> But it didn't.
> 
> So you are once again grossly mistaken.



no, you are the one who is grossly mistaken. more people would associate a light blue star of david as a political symbol than would associate a menorah as a political symbol. the star of david is regularly used to symbolise israel.

yes, an israeli flag would have been easy enough to draw but it would not have made for a good ad and out of place with the theme.

HAMAS has always advocated the end of the israeli occupation. that is their thing. 

it is, and always has been, jews, zionists, and israelis who have tried to link any opposition to the state of israel to religion and jews worldwide. you have a history of that, and this ad is just another example.

israeli credibility is shot all to hell and is probably at an all time low worldwide and it is precisely because of things like this.


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## HUGGY (May 22, 2013)

Lipush said:


> Hamas wants to throw the Jews into the sea.
> 
> That includes the ones from Ashdod, Netanya, and Be'er Sheva. "Palestine" for them is all of Israel!
> 
> ...



Sounds sca-a-a-wy !


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## sealadaigh (May 22, 2013)

Lipush said:


> Hamas wants to throw the Jews into the sea.
> 
> That includes the ones from Ashdod, Netanya, and Be'er Sheva. "Palestine" for them is all of Israel!
> 
> ...



and israel/jews/zionists wants to destroy any remnants of the palestinian people, and they are having considerable success...but some people do not go down easy.

who is this "they" you are quoting. it seems odd that more than one person would make that exact quote.

HAMAS is your baby. it grew up stronger and quicker than you expected.


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## sealadaigh (May 22, 2013)

Kondor3 said:


> If the Palestinians are going to throw the Israelis out of Palestine, they had better hurry, before the last few 'drops' of Palestine evaporate into thin air...
> 
> Palestine is like a chicken with its head just cut off: running about the barnyard, spraying blood and making great flapping noises, but already dead... only to figure it out after a while... falling-over, lying down, and going quiet and still...



i agree. the israeli jews have conducted their genocide of the palestinians well.

it remains to be seen if that will be to israel's and jews' advantage.

perhaps jews will end up being scorned like the NAZIs were after WWII. their children are already turning their backs on them and the world jewish population really isn't increasing.


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## Kondor3 (May 22, 2013)

reabhloideach said:


> "..._i agree. the israeli jews have conducted their genocide of the palestinians well. it remains to be seen if that will be to israel's and jews' advantage. perhaps jews will end up being scorned like the NAZIs were after WWII. their children are already turning their backs on them and the world jewish population really isn't increasing._"


Hey, it could have been worse... rather than just being nudged off their land and being allowed to pack up and leave, they could have herded them into camps, gassed them, then incinerated the corpses... now that would be 'genocide' in the traditional sense, over-and-above the Johnny-come-lately 'land seizure' definition that made it into the dictionaries after WWII.

It will soon come to pass that any Palestinian with an ounce of brains and two shekels to rub together will pack up his family and get the hell outta Dodge before the '_Showdown at the OK Kibbutz_'...

It's a little difficult to sympathize with the Losers in such a conflict when the Losers brought it upon themselves 65 years ago by threatening (and working alongside neighbor-countries) to drown their adversaries in the sea, and by missing opportunity after opportunity to compromise during the early-to-middle going, and when their own intransigence and foolhardiness and idiocy and unprovoked attacks upon civilians have brought them to this sad state of affairs...

Perhaps they should have thought of these things before embarking down the path that they chose so long ago, and so foolishly adhered to for so long, until it was too late...

They've been shooting themselves in the foot for 65 years now... Fun-Time is almost over... and they're going to have to clear-off and let the rest of the world get on with life without listening to their constant and incessant whiny-biotch clamoring day after day....

Once the last of the Palestinians have been nudged elsewhere it will be like a hectic day in a house full of young children, after the last of the little monsters have been packed off to bed and is soundly asleep... blessed silence.

Once gone, the world will forget about them at the speed of light, and within a generation or two they'll be nothing more than a footnote in history books and a poster-child for political stupidity... nature will have de-selected them as a _potential_ 'people'.


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## Roudy (May 22, 2013)

reabhloideach said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> > The Hamas-affiliated student union in Gaza published a cartoon Tuesday in which a person whose body is made of a Palestinian Authority flag is seen throwing a Star of David  one of the best-known Jewish symbols  into a garbage can.
> ...


All of that BS and you still didn't tell the truth. That Hamas does not differentiate between Jews and Israelis. Have you opened it's Charter?


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## Truthseeker420 (May 22, 2013)

Kondor3 said:


> If the Palestinians are going to throw the Israelis out of Palestine, they had better hurry, before the last few 'drops' of Palestine evaporate into thin air...
> 
> Palestine is like a chicken with its head just cut off: running about the barnyard, spraying blood and making great flapping noises, but already dead... only to figure it out after a while... falling-over, lying down, and going quiet and still...



So you agree Israel is crying crocodile tears?


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## Roudy (May 22, 2013)

Kondor3 said:


> If the Palestinians are going to throw the Israelis out of Palestine, they had better hurry, before the last few 'drops' of Palestine evaporate into thin air...
> 
> Palestine is like a chicken with its head just cut off: running about the barnyard, spraying blood and making great flapping noises, but already dead... only to figure it out after a while... falling-over, lying down, and going quiet and still...


Kondor FYI that map is false propaganda and lies, promoted by Arabs 

 1946: Lie, Green area did not belong to Arabs, it was British Mandate. In fact all of Green area was to be Jewish Palestine and East of it to be Arab Palestine aka Jordan. Arabs refused and attacked Israel.

1947, and 1948-1967:  Areas occupied by Egypt, Jordan and Syria that was captured after 1967 after failed Arab aggressions.


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## ForeverYoung436 (May 22, 2013)

reabhloideach said:


> Kondor3 said:
> 
> 
> > If the Palestinians are going to throw the Israelis out of Palestine, they had better hurry, before the last few 'drops' of Palestine evaporate into thin air...
> ...



This map is misleading and was probably made-up, and looked at, by people who have never been to the West Bank.  There are 2.7 million Palestinians in the West Bank, as opposed to about 300,000 Jews.  The Palestinian population have been growing by leaps-and-bounds, rather than diminishing.  Cities like Jericho, Bethlehem and Shechem (Nablus), have been totally shorn of any Jewish character, and only Hebron is still hanging on.  Like Saigon said, "Anyone who has never been there, doesn't really know what's going on."  Have you ever been there, Kondor?


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## Roudy (May 22, 2013)

reabhloideach said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> > Hamas wants to throw the Jews into the sea.
> ...


Except there was no Palestinian people as Arabs, only if you're talking about Jews. Ignoramus.


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## sealadaigh (May 22, 2013)

Roudy said:


> reabhloideach said:
> 
> 
> > Lipush said:
> ...



israelis are quite commonly referred to as "jews" in the mideast, but if you waant to make a mountain out of a molehill, by all means, be my guest. i don't like zionists and israelis and such histrionics on their part works towards my end.

why would i read the charter when khalid mashal said it was a part of history and irrelevant and the charter has never been adopted by HAMAS after their political election. shall we discuss the talmud and torah laws/dialogue. certainly they justify everything said in the HAMAS charter.

you can't have it both ways.

careful roudy...i think there are a gang of arabs hiding under your bad with can openers, pipe wrenchs, and that dreaded .50 cal machine gun disguised as a hand saw...LOL.

OMG...i saw one with a rather large spatula...better send in some IDF commandoes.


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## Kondor3 (May 22, 2013)

Truthseeker420 said:


> "..._So you agree Israel is crying crocodile tears?_"


Crying? Hardly. Crocodile-caliber or no. More like smiling, and breathing a sigh of relief, now that they've won, after things looked so grim for them, only a generation or two ago.


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## Saigon (May 22, 2013)

> 1946: Lie, Green area did not belong to Arabs, it was British Mandate. In fact* all of Green area was to be Jewish Palestine* and East of it to be Arab Palestine aka Jordan. Arabs refused and attacked Israel.



So you are saying that mandate areas "belonged" to the country holding the mandate?

I don't think so. 

The mandates were intended as transitional adminstrations only - with the land being transferred to local control in a reasonable time frame. 

In 1922 the British Government stated:

_'Unauthorized statements have been made to the effect that the purpose in view is to create a wholly Jewish Palestine. Phrases have been used such as that Palestine is to become "as Jewish as England is English." His Majesty's Government regard any such expectation as impracticable and have no such aim in view. They would draw attention to* the fact that the terms of the Declaration referred to do not contemplate that Palestine as a whole should be converted into a Jewish National Home, but that such a Home should be founded "in Palestine." *_

Churchill White Paper - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

You may want to consider editing your statement to include these historical facts.


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## Kondor3 (May 22, 2013)

ForeverYoung436 said:


> "..._This map is misleading and was probably made-up, and looked at, by people who have never been to the West Bank_..."


I know the fine-print on the map-image is hard to see at this resolution, but if you blow it up, you'll see that it was created by the N(egotiation) A(ffairs) D(ivision) of the PLO itself [ NAD-PLO ] - so, I'm guessing that the Palestinians have a fairly good idea of just how much land is left to them, yes?



> "..._There are 2.7 million Palestinians in the West Bank, as opposed to about 300,000 Jews. The Palestinian population have been growing by leaps-and-bounds, rather than diminishing. Cities like Jericho, Bethlehem and Shechem (Nablus), have been totally shorn of any Jewish character, and only Hebron is still hanging on_..."



I wouldn't know about any of that, nor do I see how that helps us to gauge the credibility of the map or to verify its point of origin. And we are talking about space on which to live - not a head-count of those living on the land nor their growth rate.



> "..._Like Saigon said, 'Anyone who has never been there, doesn't really know what's going on.'  Have you ever been there, Kondor?_"



Nope. Although I can read and think. Why? Are only people who have been there allowed to comment (or capable of commenting) upon their state of affairs? Somehow, I don't think that's where you're going with this, but one never knows.


----------



## ForeverYoung436 (May 22, 2013)

Kondor3 said:


> ForeverYoung436 said:
> 
> 
> > "..._This map is misleading and was probably made-up, and looked at, by people who have never been to the West Bank_..."
> ...



Yes, that's exactly my point.  It's about time that people who post constantly on this Board, start making plans about visiting there.


----------



## Saigon (May 22, 2013)

ForeverYoung436 said:


> Yes, that's exactly my point.  It's about time that people who post constantly on this Board, start making plans about visiting there.



I do agree with this. 

I understand not everyone is interested in the Middle East, but I don't get one or two of our posters who post 54827 times a day about the Islamic world - but have never set foot in an Islamic country. 

It's like posting on a golf forum but never picking up a club.


----------



## Kondor3 (May 22, 2013)

Roudy said:


> "...Kondor FYI that map is false propaganda and lies, promoted by Arabs..."


Roudy... you are right about them never having been a discernible nation or people and you are also probably right about them using this as a Propaganda Map.

Nevertheless, it also seems to be a fairly reliable image, demonstrating the progression of land-transfer between the Jews and the Arabs, and can be utilized for other purposes.

The other way of looking at this is as a Progress Map - how far along the Israelis are in reclaiming their spiritual and ancestral homeland.


----------



## Kondor3 (May 22, 2013)

ForeverYoung436 said:


> "..._Yes, that's exactly my point. It's about time that people who post constantly on this Board, start making plans about visiting there._"


Well, you are certainly entitled to your opinion, although that does not mean that others are obliged to share it.

Is there particular point(s) being made or attempted somewhere here that you have in-mind, that can only be understood or discussed by someone who has been there?

If so, perhaps you can define such Off Limits topical material for us.

If not, well...


----------



## HUGGY (May 22, 2013)

Lipush said:


> The Hamas-affiliated student union in Gaza published a cartoon Tuesday in which a person whose body is made of a Palestinian Authority flag is seen throwing a Star of David  one of the best-known Jewish symbols  into a garbage can.
> 
> Text under the picture says, Keep the world clean.
> 
> ...



I would be tickled if the Jews that love Israel more than the U S A would just pack up and go there.  You can take the fundi Christians and the Muslims with you.. Thanks!  HUGGY


----------



## High_Gravity (May 22, 2013)

Saigon said:


> ForeverYoung436 said:
> 
> 
> > Yes, that's exactly my point.  It's about time that people who post constantly on this Board, start making plans about visiting there.
> ...



Exactly, they need to get over there and see whats really going on.


----------



## Roudy (May 22, 2013)

reabhloideach said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > reabhloideach said:
> ...


I'd be more worried about Jews hiding under your bed Mr. anti Semite Nazi boy.  LOL

As far as Israelis being referred to as Jews, it seems like you're the one trying to have it both ways.  Perhaps that is why Arabs and Muslims persecuted and oppressed minority Jews in their countries, even before the state of Israel was created.  Maybe they thought they were going after future Israelis?  Ha ha ha.


----------



## Roudy (May 22, 2013)

HUGGY said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> > The Hamas-affiliated student union in Gaza published a cartoon Tuesday in which a person whose body is made of a Palestinian Authority flag is seen throwing a Star of David  one of the best-known Jewish symbols  into a garbage can.
> ...


Some do, some don't, it's a personal choice.


----------



## Roudy (May 22, 2013)

Kondor3 said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > "...Kondor FYI that map is false propaganda and lies, promoted by Arabs..."
> ...


Did you say 1922?  Here's how the land was REALLY supposed to be divided:


----------



## sealadaigh (May 22, 2013)

ForeverYoung436 said:


> Kondor3 said:
> 
> 
> > ForeverYoung436 said:
> ...



i've been to lebanon and tel aviv a while ago but so what. that is BS though that anyone who has never been there doesn't really know what is going on. there are all kinds of things that influence perceptions.

how about this...anybody who has had an emotional attachment to one side or the other from birth doesn't really know what is going on.

that is an statement that can be applied to almost anything. anybody who didn't endure slavery really doesn't know what's going on. anybody who hasn't given a press conference in the rain with another head of state doesn't really know what's going on. anybody who hasn't lived in a refugee camp doesn't know what's going on.

what a flippant and arrogant way to dismiss someones opinion.

how about this...anybody who has been there really doesn't know what is going on because they have a subjecctive view of the matter.


----------



## ForeverYoung436 (May 22, 2013)

reabhloideach said:


> ForeverYoung436 said:
> 
> 
> > Kondor3 said:
> ...



First of all, I wasn't talking to you, I was talking to Kondor.  Secondly, I said that because the map he presented doesn't really reflect reality.  Saigon has said the same thing I just said, and he's said it hundreds of times, not just once like I did.  But you've never called him arrogant, because he's not Jewish.


----------



## sealadaigh (May 22, 2013)

Kondor3 said:


> ForeverYoung436 said:
> 
> 
> > "..._Yes, that's exactly my point. It's about time that people who post constantly on this Board, start making plans about visiting there._"
> ...



how about this...you are not allowed to talk about anything unless you have direct personal experience and if you have had that direct personal experience your opinion is influenced by that experience and is subjective, thus making that opinion invalid and worthless.

i think that pretty well covers the field.


----------



## sealadaigh (May 22, 2013)

ForeverYoung436 said:


> reabhloideach said:
> 
> 
> > ForeverYoung436 said:
> ...



first of all, this is a public message board and i will respond to posts whenever and wherever i want. if you want to ask kondor specifically a question, take it to PM.

secondly, i did not single you out. i made a comment about a statement and it landed on your post. the statement, be it made by you, rocco, saigon, or whomever, that "anyone who hasn't been there really doesn't no what is going on" is flippant, arrogant, dismissive, and rude, although i am sure none of you had any intention of it being that way.

i have no idea whether saigon is jewish or not or even whether you are jewish or not. i do not really care. i care if you are zionist or not.


----------



## Lipush (May 22, 2013)

HUGGY said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> > The Hamas-affiliated student union in Gaza published a cartoon Tuesday in which a person whose body is made of a Palestinian Authority flag is seen throwing a Star of David  one of the best-known Jewish symbols  into a garbage can.
> ...



Israel comes first.


----------



## sealadaigh (May 22, 2013)

Saigon said:


> ForeverYoung436 said:
> 
> 
> > Yes, that's exactly my point.  It's about time that people who post constantly on this Board, start making plans about visiting there.
> ...




don't be ignorant.

why are you even here talking about it if you don't think people will even understand unless they have personal experience. aren't you wasting your time, and how the hell do you know who has or has not been in an islamic country or not. shall those who haven't been required to submit a resume to you to determine the validity of their posts or their qualifications.

i never figured you for an elitest.

and just for the record, i have been to muslim countries, the most recent being lebanon, and i don't think my knowledge comes from experience but instead comes from study.

i knew this white guy who was in a motorcycle accident with a black guy and the white guy lost his leg. he hated black folk in the worst way and he has experience. am i supposed to regard his opinion as being somewhat valid because of his experience. i thought he was an ass. he owned a pool hall and was gunned down by another white guy.


----------



## Coyote (May 22, 2013)

Lipush said:


> HUGGY said:
> 
> 
> > Lipush said:
> ...



You're an Israeli, so that's appropriate but - are you saying that for American Jews, Israel should come before America?


----------



## Lipush (May 22, 2013)

No.

American Jews are first Americans, and one cannot ask that of them.

In Judaism, _Dina Demalchuta Dina_.

It means that the laws of religion and Torah says very strickly, that the loyalty should first be for their hosting state.

Doing anything which harms that, is betraying both the state and the Jewish people.

Luckily, the interests of Americans and Israelis don't clash.


----------



## Roudy (May 22, 2013)

Coyote said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> > HUGGY said:
> ...


No but that's certainly the propaganda that Islamists and neo Nazis seem to want to pass around.


----------



## Lipush (May 22, 2013)

SOOOO true.


----------



## Coyote (May 22, 2013)

Roudy said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Lipush said:
> ...



Actually, it's not just them.  I hear the same being levied at Muslims with people claiming they can't be "real Americans" because they put religion first.

Same propaganda only it's Islamophobes passing it around.


----------



## Kondor3 (May 22, 2013)

reabhloideach said:


> Kondor3 said:
> 
> 
> > ForeverYoung436 said:
> ...



*< snicker >*


----------



## Lipush (May 22, 2013)

It's not that they cannot be loyal, I don't think that true.

But there are many Muslims in USA who say and believe that America should be under Shariah law, and that the Muslim culture should be the one ruling.

We have a friend right here who believes so and can tell us all about it.

When you are given an opportunity to have a kind hosting country, you should be loyal to it.

Muhammad Merah, the French-Muslim who killed 3 Jewich children and 2 French soldiers, said he did it for Islam and that he wanted to bring France to its knees.

I think one should be very dark-hearted, no matter if a Muslim, Jew, or I don't know what, do harm this way in a country which takes care of you.

That's just so NOT OKAY!


----------



## Kondor3 (May 22, 2013)

Roudy said:


> "...Did you say 1922?..."



No, I don't remember doing that.



> "..._Here's how the land was REALLY supposed to be divided_..."



I was addressing what *is*, post-1948, and not what was *intended* by Party A or B at some earlier point in time.

It does no disservice to the cause of Israel to utilize modern and realistic maps rather than sugar-plum visions that never materialized.


----------



## Roudy (May 22, 2013)

Kondor3 said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > "...Did you say 1922?..."
> ...


Sorry Kondor for some reason I ended up responding to you when it was for another poster (I believe Seal).


----------



## Roudy (May 22, 2013)

Coyote said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...


It's not a one size fits all.  Some of the problems with Muslims are caused by Muslims themselves.  I don't want to get into the reasons why.


----------



## Hossfly (May 22, 2013)

reabhloideach said:


> ForeverYoung436 said:
> 
> 
> > Kondor3 said:
> ...


Well it seems obvious that you are really not keeping track of what is going on in the Muslim world, even when it comes to Catholics being killed.  Why not visit Nigeria and see what is happening to the Catholics there by your friendly Muslim radicals?  So tell us, Seal, when you say you have been to Tel Aviv and Lebanon a while ago, how far back was that?  As an aside, I want all the viewers to believe, for instance, that even though the Christian Copts are living in Egypt, they really don't know what is going on because in Seal's opinion that have a "subjective view of the matter."


----------



## sealadaigh (May 22, 2013)

Hossfly said:


> reabhloideach said:
> 
> 
> > ForeverYoung436 said:
> ...


----------



## sealadaigh (May 22, 2013)

Roudy said:


> Kondor3 said:
> 
> 
> > Roudy said:
> ...



well, it is about fookin' time. i do not lie and rarely make a mistake, and when i do, i make attempts to correct it.

do ya wanna be on my "friends" list now?


----------



## proudveteran06 (May 22, 2013)

reabhloideach said:


> Hossfly said:
> 
> 
> > reabhloideach said:
> ...


----------



## member (May 22, 2013)

> _* Israel comes first.*_






> * You're an Israeli, so that's appropriate but - are you saying that for American Jews, Israel should come before America?*





> *"No."*












 *"American Jews are first Americans, and one cannot ask that of them.  In Judaism, Dina Demalchuta Dina.
It means that the laws of religion and Torah says very strickly, that the loyalty should first be for their hosting state.
Doing anything which harms that, is betraying both the state and the Jewish people.  Luckily, the interests of Americans and Israelis don't clash."*







i'm glad it was *"NO."*  i had one of those *'symbols'* 

 _to show you............._

. . .and i'm glad we do business, one of my favorite '_noshes.'_


----------



## LA RAM FAN (May 23, 2013)

High_Gravity said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> > The Hamas-affiliated student union in Gaza published a cartoon Tuesday in which a person whose body is made of a Palestinian Authority flag is seen throwing a Star of David &#8211; one of the best-known Jewish symbols &#8211; into a garbage can.
> ...





you Israeli lovers have been exposed for the liars you are. other way around charlie.The zionist jews want the palestinians dead as has been exposed in this link that you isreal apologits will ignore.

4 Most Common Myths About Israel and Gaza -- Debunked: What you need to know about the Israeli offensive


----------



## LA RAM FAN (May 23, 2013)

Truthseeker420 said:


> High_Gravity said:
> 
> 
> > Saigon said:
> ...



exactly.well said.


----------



## Roudy (May 23, 2013)

9/11 inside job said:


> High_Gravity said:
> 
> 
> > Lipush said:
> ...


Say who, someone who thinks 9-11 was an inside job?   Ya right, take a hike.

9-11 was an Islam job.


----------



## Coyote (May 23, 2013)

Lipush said:


> It's not that they cannot be loyal, I don't think that true.
> 
> *But there are many Muslims in USA who say and believe that America should be under Shariah law, and that the Muslim culture should be the one ruling.
> *



I have *never heard that from Muslims here* and I live here.  Do you have a source for that claim?


----------



## HUGGY (May 23, 2013)

*Gaza Students: Clean the World of Jews *

Maybe Israel could put public showers on the street corners and at least meet the Arabs half way by making the Jews cleaner....


----------



## Hossfly (May 23, 2013)

HUGGY said:


> *Gaza Students: Clean the World of Jews *
> 
> Maybe Israel could put public showers on the street corners and at least meet the Arabs half way by making the Jews cleaner....


Huggy, do you have your jackboots on while you are posting to this forum?


----------



## Kondor3 (May 23, 2013)

HUGGY said:


> *Gaza Students: Clean the World of Jews *
> 
> Maybe Israel could put public showers on the street corners and at least meet the Arabs half way by making the Jews cleaner....



Very *un*-cool...


----------



## sealadaigh (May 23, 2013)

Hossfly said:


> HUGGY said:
> 
> 
> > *Gaza Students: Clean the World of Jews *
> ...




lolol...quit whining. it may have been inappropriate and a bit edgy, but at least it shut your stupid mouth from another incessant lecture about nigerian christian.

you should talk after your silence at the "they blow up so quickly" and other stupidities. jews get very little back for what they give and that is why huggy's post stands out.

it was lipush who twisted the meaning of the poster anyway so stop yer belly aching.


----------



## Hossfly (May 23, 2013)

reabhloideach said:


> Hossfly said:
> 
> 
> > HUGGY said:
> ...


It appears that you have been whining all day long, the same way you did on another forum that posters called  you the whiner.  Speaking of Christian Nigerians, Seal, since the new Pope made Saints out of those who refused to convert to Islam in Italy, I hope in the future he or the next Pope make Saints of those Catholics who have been murdered in Nigeria.  I am sure you can spare a few moments to research what is going on to your fellow Catholics in Nigeria or don't you care?.


----------



## Saigon (May 23, 2013)

Hossfly said:


> Well it seems obvious that you are really not keeping track of what is going on in the Muslim world, even when it comes to Catholics being killed.  Why not visit Nigeria and see what is happening to the Catholics there by your friendly Muslim radicals?  So tell us, Seal, when you say you have been to Tel Aviv and Lebanon a while ago, how far back was that?  As an aside, I want all the viewers to believe, for instance, that even though the Christian Copts are living in Egypt, they really don't know what is going on because in Seal's opinion that have a "subjective view of the matter."



It is interesting that you mention the appalling violence against Christians in Northern Nigeria, but do not mention the appalling violence by Christians in Liberia, Sierra Leone or Cote D'Ivoire. 

It makes much more sense to see the violence in the West African Sahel as being regional rather than religious, because it involves the entire region, and not simply one religious group.


----------



## Roudy (May 24, 2013)

Coyote said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> > It's not that they cannot be loyal, I don't think that true.
> ...


Where have you been?  Even Sunni man, a member on this board claims he wants Shariah for America. Geez.


----------



## kvetch (May 24, 2013)

Roudy said:


> 9/11 inside job said:
> 
> 
> > High_Gravity said:
> ...



9-11 was committed by proud veterans with average USA intelligence and geographical knowledge, i.e. zero

they were sent on a mission to bomb Baghdad and get that saddam Hussein

but not having a clue where eye - raq was, or how to fly a plane, they flew into the world trade centre and 2 tried to return to base and one bumped into the pentagon

of course this is nonsense

just like everything this idiotic moronic so called veteran says


----------



## kvetch (May 24, 2013)

HUGGY said:


> *Gaza Students: Clean the World of Jews *
> 
> Maybe Israel could put public showers on the street corners and at least meet the Arabs half way by making the Jews cleaner....



well they could start by trying to clean lipushy out of her incessant professional paranoia

doubt all the water in all the ocens of the universe could do that, though

the jewish tradition started with a younger brother, Jacob, stealin the birthright of his elder brother, esau

and jews, including me, have been stealing ever since

94% of Israel is stolen

that's what needs cleaning up

and that 94% needs to be returned to its rightful owners, the Palestinians

but not a drop of anyone's sacred human blood needs to be spilled in the process

thieves can be brought to justice, have their stolen property confiscated, be punished and made to compensate their victims properly

all without a drop of blood spilled

as they are in all civilised countries

but Israel is NOT a civilised country; its a stolen pariah state taken by violence and mass murder

and it will take more than showers to clean it up


----------



## kvetch (May 24, 2013)

Hossfly said:


> reabhloideach said:
> 
> 
> > Hossfly said:
> ...



Hossy Bear.

I'd love to see you just once show some compassion for ordinary innocent muslims who are being persecuted

Do you have a dime of fellow feeling for them at all

I hate and detest islam as I do Judaism because they preach an all male god totally separate from his creation which is a vile and pernicious lie which has done untold damage to our species and still does.

And I was very nearly killedd myself by Muslim terrorists here in India 3 years and 3 months ago.

But that does not stop me having good and close friendships with the many lovely Muslims here and in London too, or appreciating the wonderful Qawali music of Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan and A R Rahmnan, the best musicians and composers of this and the last centuries both inspired by sufi Islam which I deeply respect.

Are you so locked in your Jewish tribal prison that you cannot empathise with anyone else??


----------



## proudveteran06 (May 24, 2013)

kvetch said:


> Hossfly said:
> 
> 
> > reabhloideach said:
> ...



Are you so locked up in your vile Anti Semetic Hatred ? You accuse the poster of not having " compassion " for innocent Muslims . With your bigotry, hatred and lack of empathy do you believe Muslims have " empathy" towards Jews? It's obvious you don't, Look at yourself before pointing fingers, you bigot


----------



## Lipush (May 24, 2013)

kvetch said:


> HUGGY said:
> 
> 
> > *Gaza Students: Clean the World of Jews *
> ...



Yes, you're a Jew, except that you have no idea about the Hebrew language, Judaism, or ethnic and cultural values of our people.

It's about time to say that you're simply a deciever.

And many other things I will not say since Coyote rightfully told me earlier that those kind of comments sound awfully like trollism.

And since your entire profile is one big provocation, there is no need to go down to that kind of level.

Let me just say this, Mr. Kvetch, or whoever next you pretend to be-

We Israeli Jews live in this homeland, which is not stolen, but released.

You kind of people are small and meaningless, and while all you do is being a key-board hero, we manage our lives, doing things which actually MATTER.

We will not give up on this land, we will die for this land, we will fight for it untill we're drained of blood, and not even THEN, we will stop. we will not be sent back to the hellfire of hateful Europe. 

As for myself, I am paranoid, you say, well as I said, your opinion matter like the used tiolet paper in a dirty street.

I will live and die here, my children and grandchildren will live and die here, so will theirs.

And no matter how much people like you will be pissed, that is not going to change.
_
In blood and fire Judea fell, in blood and fire it shall arise_-The Jewish defenders


----------



## Lipush (May 24, 2013)

Coyote said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> > It's not that they cannot be loyal, I don't think that true.
> ...



I meant "here" as in "on this message board" here, not whatever "here" you thought "here" was.


----------



## sealadaigh (May 24, 2013)

Lipush said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Lipush said:
> ...



i have never seen or heard a muslim either in your "here" or coyote's "here', say or believe america should be under sharia law, or that muslim culture should be the one ruling...and certainly not many.

i would normally say you are mistaken because, believe it or not, i do try to give people at leasst the benefit of a doubt, but that is a lie.

you should apologise to coyote and the muslim readers.


----------



## sealadaigh (May 24, 2013)

proudveteran06 said:


> kvetch said:
> 
> 
> > Hossfly said:
> ...



thus spaketh the "one trick pony."

one of my  best friends, an outstanding man, husband, and father who treated everyone with compassion and respect, was a sufi from senegal.


----------



## Lipush (May 24, 2013)

reabhloideach said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...



Sunni man said so many times.

That he wishes to see the United States under Sharia law.

Why should I apologise, you may very well just ask him yourself.

He will share his views with you.

I will apologise if saying things which are not true.

But what I have said, is very much true.

And can be backed up.


----------



## sealadaigh (May 24, 2013)

Lipush said:


> reabhloideach said:
> 
> 
> > Lipush said:
> ...




then back it up...

you said "there are many Muslims in USA who say and believe that America should be under Shariah law, and that the Muslim culture should be the one ruling."

then you changed it to one muslim, sunni man, and i am not sure under what circumstances he said that and exactly what he meant so yes, i will and do ask him if he did say that and ask for a clariication.

back it up.


----------



## MHunterB (May 24, 2013)

Sunniboy alleges that many Muslims share the views he's expressed ........


----------



## Hossfly (May 24, 2013)

MHunterB said:


> Sunniboy alleges that many Muslims share the views he's expressed ........


Sunni is not the only one who espouses Shariah.

40 Percent of US Muslim Voters Want Islamic Law, 12 Percent Want Death for Blasphemers | FrontPage Magazine


----------



## Book of Jeremiah (May 24, 2013)

Lipush said:


> reabhloideach said:
> 
> 
> > Lipush said:
> ...



Of course it can.  CAIR ( council of american islamic relations ) - their entire objective is to install Sharia Law in the United States.   That is why they are fighting against those of us getting American Law for American Courtrooms passed from state to state.  Oh and I have good news.  We just got ALAC passed in Alabama.  That is one more state that has it on the books - no sharia law permitted in their courtrooms.   

  - Jeremiah


----------



## Hossfly (May 24, 2013)

Jeremiah said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> > reabhloideach said:
> ...


CAIR is on record saying Shariah law is the way as well as wanting a Muslim President.

?We are above the law of the land?


----------



## Coyote (May 24, 2013)

Lipush said:


> reabhloideach said:
> 
> 
> > Lipush said:
> ...



Sunni is one person.


----------



## Coyote (May 24, 2013)

Lipush said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Lipush said:
> ...



Well, you said "there are many Muslims in USA" - so that was exactly how I took it...


----------



## sealadaigh (May 24, 2013)

MHunterB said:


> Sunniboy alleges that many Muslims share the views he's expressed ........



and since when have you taken sunni at his word...and sunni is only one muslim, not the confusing "many" located in or at the confusing "here", and exactly how precise a term is "many".

coyote disputed the original "here" and lipush changed it to a different "here".

how about this...

many jews believe that women do not deserve to be treated equally.

or...

many jews think it is ok to refer to a muslim man as "boy", reminiscent of the white supremicist attitude that exists in many parts of the deep south and displayed towards those of african descent.

now, either lipush meant that many american muslims think sharia law should be instituted in the united states or...she meant many board muslims think sharia law should be instituted in the united states.

of course, having reviewed the pertinent posts, she meant neither but she was not clear...in act, she was very unclear... and i still think she owes the board and muslims an apology...or perhaps she believes whatever she thinks sunniMAN said or says.


----------



## sealadaigh (May 24, 2013)

Hossfly said:


> Jeremiah said:
> 
> 
> > Lipush said:
> ...



from your article...

"When you even say the word Shariah, people get nervous. We are not advocating for Shariah. We are not trying to make Shariah the law of the land, he said.

Carroll claimed Muslims only want the right to practice our faith.

But he also said, If you understand Shariah, the foundation of our faith  how we treat our neighbor, how we treat our parents  how we participate in society, all of that is part of Shariah.

it does seem that the truth is taking an awful beating from all of your thumping bibles.

so let me ask you hoss, do you think god's law supersedes the law of the land when they come in conflict, and they often do? a simple yes or no will do.


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## MHunterB (May 24, 2013)

Seal:  I think you owe a great many posters a great many apologies, now that you've brought up the topic and repeated yourself.

Nobody is in need of your 'help' or your 'guidance' on that matter.  And there's no reason for anyone to care about what you think is owed to whom to begin with.


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## Hossfly (May 24, 2013)

reabhloideach said:


> Hossfly said:
> 
> 
> > Jeremiah said:
> ...


I don't think I want to be taken in by your trolling.
"Never trust a Sasanach"
~~~Adolph Hitler


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## Kondor3 (May 24, 2013)

Hossfly said:


> "...CAIR is on record saying Shariah law is the way as well as wanting a Muslim President.."... Link: *?We are above the law of the land?*


WorldNetDaily is a media outlet funded by and leaning heavily towards stereotypical US Conservative political perspectives and agendas, so, I take with a grain of salt, what outlets like that serve-up.

Nevertheless, this 'caution' does not negate the value of their reporting.

So long as they are accurately quoting someone, it doesn't matter a damn who is doing the quoting.

Having said that, the article reads as follows:

( the bold emphasis is mine )

===================

WND EXCLUSIVE

*'WE ARE ABOVE THE LAW OF THE LAND'*

*Muslim leader's stunning claim at Texas rally for Islam*

Published: 03/03/2013 at 6:12 PM

Muslims living in America should not be bound by U.S. law, according to a leader of the Council on American-Islamic Relations, who delivered the controversial message to a crowd at a Muslim rally in Austin, Texas.

&#8220;*If we are practicing Muslims, we are above the law of the land*,&#8221; said Mustafa Carroll, executive director of the Dallas-Fort Worth CAIR branch.

The rally in Austin was part of a nationwide effort to hold &#8220;Muslim Capitol Day&#8221; events.

According to the event website, Muslims from around Texas went to the capitol to &#8220;promote civic and *political activism throughout the wider Muslim community*.&#8221;

The organizers said one major issue discussed &#8220;was the recent House and Senate bill proposals involving the implementation of &#8216;anti-Shariah&#8217; legislation, where the First Amendment rights and freedoms of Muslims would ultimately be hindered.&#8221;

Critics argue Shariah prohibits other faiths from free exercise of religion when enforced, giving freedom only to Muslims.

Carroll&#8217;s statement was *similar to a statement allegedly made by CAIR co-founder and former chairman Omar M. Ahmad*. He was *paraphrased* by a reporter saying, &#8220;I*slam isn&#8217;t in America to be equal to any other faith, but to become dominant*&#8221; and the *Quran &#8220;should be the highest authority in America, and Islam the only accepted religion on Earth*.&#8221;

Carroll began joking about the widespread concern about Shariah, the religious code that governs Muslim civil and political life.

&#8220;We tried to downplay Shariah, because we didn&#8217;t want to give the other side any excitement for being here,&#8221; he said.

He dismissed critics who express concern about Shariah, calling them &#8220;anti-foreign.&#8221;

&#8220;When you even say the word Shariah, people get nervous. *We are not advocating for Shariah. We are not trying to make Shariah the law of the land,*&#8221; he said.

Carroll claimed Muslims only want the &#8220;right to practice our faith.&#8221;

But he also said, &#8220;If you understand Shariah, the foundation of our faith &#8230; how we treat our neighbor, how we treat our parents &#8230; how we participate in society, all of that is part of Shariah.&#8221;

*Carroll is on record defending Hama*s, classified by the U.S. as a terrorist group.

&#8220;I think you can only blame Hamas for so long. It takes two to tango. And I think, you know, that what we&#8217;ve heard for a number of years is this terrorist, terrorist, terrorist, terrorist, Hamas, Hamas, Hamas, was not just Hamas,&#8221; he&#8217;s said.

At CAIR&#8217;s Dallas banquet in 2007, Carroll denied the Quran is the source of terrorism.

&#8220;Look at the true cause of the terrorism. It&#8217;s not somebody is reading a book, reading a Quran, and then go out and say, &#8216;Well, the Quran told me to blow this up. I&#8217;m gonna blow it up.&#8217; The cause, the root cause of terrorism is oppression. The root cause of terrorism is oppression.&#8221;

Rev. Ronnie C. Lister, a social justice activist from the Houston area, spoke at Muslim Capitol Day.

&#8220;This country belongs to you. This state house is your state house. The police department is your police department,&#8221; he told the crowd. &#8220;This land is your land. &#8230; God is on your side &#8230; this is your house. [It] does not belong to the Republicans. It does not belong to the Democrats. It does not belong to just Americans. It belongs to all of us!

&#8220;We are looking for the day when a Muslim will become president of the United States; you heard it from me,&#8221; Lister said.

Islamic expert Frank Gaffney, founder of the Center for Security Policy in Washington, D.C., told WND that Carroll&#8217;s declaration of Islamic supremacy was consistent with Muslim teaching.

*&#8220;When you hear one of their speakers say, we are above the law of the land &#8211; take it to the bank. That is what they really believe,&#8221; he said. &#8220;That is what all Muslims believe. That is what Shariah teaches. To the extent that Muslims adhere to Shariah, they are obliged to try and impose it on the rest of us.&#8221;*

&#8220;The organized spread of Shariah is what Gaffney calls &#8220;civilization jihad.&#8221;

Gaffney, assistant secretary of defense for international security policy in the Reagan administration, noted *CAIR was founded in 1993 to serve as a fundraising and political arm for Hamas and the Muslim Brotherhood*.

Islam expert Daniel Pipes points out *CAIR denied Osama Bin Laden was behind 9/11*, even though bin Laden acknowledged his role on camera. In 1998, CAIR demanded removal of a billboard in Los Angeles that described bin Laden as &#8220;the sworn enemy,&#8221; saying that the description was &#8220;offensive to Muslims.&#8221;

*CAIR also called the conviction of the 1993 World Trade Center bombers &#8220;a travesty of justice*.

*CAIR had on its advisory board Siraj Wahha*j, an unindicted co-conspirator in the 1993 World Trade Center bombing. It was the *same Siraj Wahhaj* who was asked to deliver the &#8220;Juma,&#8221; or invocation, at the Democratic National Convention for President Obama. He also once *remarked, &#8220;It is my duty and our duty as Muslims to replace the U.S. Constitution with the Quran*.&#8221;

Rogues gallery of terror-tied CAIR leaders

As former FBI agent Mike Rolf acknowledges in &#8220;Muslim Mafia,&#8221; &#8220;CAIR has had a number of people in positions of power within the organization that have been directly connected to terrorism and have either been prosecuted or thrown out of the country.&#8221; According to another FBI veteran familiar with recent and ongoing cases involving CAIR officials, &#8220;Their offices have been a turnstile for terrorists and their supporters.&#8221;

A review of the public record, including federal criminal court documents, past IRS 990 tax records and Federal Election Commission records detailing donor occupations, reveals that CAIR has been associated with a disturbing number of convicted terrorists or felons in terrorism probes, as well as suspected terrorists and active targets of terrorism investigations. The list is long and includes:

_...followed by a long list of CAIR Folk a ways-up on the food chain..._

CAIR&#8217;s founder Ahmad, while claiming to be a moderate and patriotic American, reportedly told a group of Muslims in Northern California in 1998 that t*hey are in America not to assimilate, but to help assert Islam&#8217;s rule over the countr*y.

&#8220;Islam isn&#8217;t in America to be equal to any other faith, but to become dominant,&#8221; a local reporter paraphrased him as saying. &#8220;The Quran, the Muslim book of scripture, should be the highest authority in America, and Islam the only accepted religion on Earth.&#8221;

Ahmad insists he was misquoted. However, the reporter stands by her story, and an FBI wiretap transcript quotes Ahmad agreeing with terrorist suspects gathered at the secret Philadelphia meeting to &#8220;camouflage&#8221; their true intentions.

He compared it to the head fake in basketball.

&#8220;This is like one who plays basketball: He makes a player believe that he is doing this, while he does something else,&#8221; Ahmad said. &#8220;I agree with you. Like they say, politics is a completion of war.&#8221;

*Hooper, CAIR&#8217;s communications director, also has expressed a desire to overturn the U.S. system of government in favor of an Islamic state.*

&#8220;I wouldn&#8217;t want to create the impression that I wouldn&#8217;t like the government of the United States to be Islamic sometime in the future,&#8221; Hooper said in a 1993 interview with the Minneapolis Star Tribune. &#8220;But I&#8217;m not going to do anything violent to promote that. I&#8217;m going to do it through education.&#8221;

IMPORTANT NOTE: The *CAIR legal attack on WND&#8217;s author is far from over*. WND needs your help in supporting the defense of &#8220;Muslim Mafia&#8221; co-author P. David Gaubatz, as well as his investigator son Chris, against CAIR&#8217;s lawsuit. The book&#8217;s revelations have led to formal congressional demands for three different federal investigations of CAIR. In the meantime, however, someone has to defend these two courageous investigators who have, at great personal risk, revealed so much about this dangerous group. Although WND has procured the best First Amendment attorneys in the country for their defense, we can&#8217;t do it without your help. Please donate to WND&#8217;s Legal Defense Fund now.

====================

*Scary stuff.*

Is it true?

Did various Chapter and National -level leadership make those comments?

It's entirely possible that one or more of those comments or declarations were misquoted or badly paraphrased or spun out-of-context, but that would constitute a whole gaggle of convenient self-excusing coincidences, and I'm not sure that I can buy that.

Is it true?

If true, then we need a different kind of national conversation on this subject.

Londinistan, anybody?


----------



## Coyote (May 24, 2013)

Kondor3 said:


> Hossfly said:
> 
> 
> > "...CAIR is on record saying Shariah law is the way as well as wanting a Muslim President.."... Link: *?We are above the law of the land?*
> ...



Actually, WND has a reputation for tabloid style reporting with about as much accuracy and I think that does negate "the value".  No where can I find the quote in it's full context.

I'd like to see the entire thing.  I know how easily things can be cherry-picked to change the meaning.


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## Hossfly (May 24, 2013)

Coyote said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...


Well. some do and some don't want Shariah law.


Muslim Group Seeks to Ban Sharia Law in America | Video | TheBlaze.com


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## Coyote (May 24, 2013)

Hossfly said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Lipush said:
> ...



Most don't and are smart enough to recognize a piece-of-crap discrimminatory legislation when they see it


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## Kondor3 (May 24, 2013)

Coyote said:


> "..._Actually, WND has a reputation for tabloid style reporting with about as much accuracy and I think that does negate "the value". No where can I find the quote in it's full context. I'd like to see the entire thing. I know how easily things can be cherry-picked to change the meaning._"


I agree that caution should be exercised when analyzing reports of such disturbing remarks by a news outlet that has a tabloid style and which seems inherently biased against a group.

Which I why I opened-up that can of worms in advance of posting the text - to get it out in the open air and on the table - but not to distract us beyond the realm of validation or authentication.

If those remarks were, indeed, made at the place and in the context and in the manner described, then I will not bother overly much about extending further benefit of a doubt to the persons uttering such declarations.

I understand the great benefit to be attained through a thorough and objective analysis of Significant Policy Statements - even on the Verbal or Unpublished level.

But I also understand the great harm that can result from a needless and prolonged picking-apart... analysis-paralysis... and the great harm that can result from failing to make hard decisions and to reach hard conclusions once the evidence is gathered and weighed, when indicated.

I have nothing but this Conservative tabloid article to go on so far, but the question remains:

Is this all real, and faithfully reported in-context?

If true, then... "Houston, we have a problem".

And, of course, at a bare-bones minimum, it appears to get Hossfly off the hook, in meeting a challenge to cite substantive reports or declarations of such Muslim intentions.

But I could be wrong, and I'll let him and others sort that one out.


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## Coyote (May 24, 2013)

The problem I have is this - nowhere can I find the context or complete speech - all I find is this little snippet circulated around the rightwing blogosphere.

Where is it's entirety?  We can't judge nor should we judge it, without it.


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## Kondor3 (May 24, 2013)

Coyote said:


> _The problem I have is this - nowhere can I find the context or complete speech - all I find is this little snippet circulated around the rightwing blogosphere. Where is it's entirety? We can't judge nor should we judge it, without it._


I really don't trust the Right Wing blogosphere any further than I can throw it.

Then again...

I really don't trust the Left Wing blogosphere any further than I can throw it, either.

There is only *one* way to interpret at least some of those truly alarming remarks.

This may not hold true for some remarks, but it almost certainly holds true for others.

I agree that it would be helpful to see the entire text of the speech in order to gauge context.

But, within the sampling-domain of those remarks that can only be reasonably construed in one way, I do not perceive the absence of the full text as a barrier to acceptance as fact.


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## sealadaigh (May 24, 2013)

Coyote said:


> The problem I have is this - nowhere can I find the context or complete speech - all I find is this little snippet circulated around the rightwing blogosphere.
> 
> Where is it's entirety?  We can't judge nor should we judge it, without it.



it surely has a context that is being neglected if you read the whole thing. i think he even says he is joking or the benefit if the fearmongers and then goes on further to explain himself.


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## Hossfly (May 24, 2013)

Kondor3 said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > "..._Actually, WND has a reputation for tabloid style reporting with about as much accuracy and I think that does negate "the value". No where can I find the quote in it's full context. I'd like to see the entire thing. I know how easily things can be cherry-picked to change the meaning._"
> ...


Nobody is stopping Coyote from getting in touch with this guy to ascertain if he really said what he did this month.  As far as Coyote saying that World Net Daily's articles have a reputation as being tabloid-style reporting (of course that comment would come from those who think like Coyote), let us not forget that everything that comes from any publication that doesn't fit in with her opinion is a tabloid, even if the one behind the site happens to be an Arab himself.  We should only believe as the truth if is comes out of a publication that meets with Coyote's approval, such as Press T.V. 

Dallas CAIR Director: ?Muslims Are Above the Law of the Land.? | FrontPage Magazine


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## Hossfly (May 24, 2013)

Kondor3 said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > _The problem I have is this - nowhere can I find the context or complete speech - all I find is this little snippet circulated around the rightwing blogosphere. Where is it's entirety? We can't judge nor should we judge it, without it._
> ...


Every article is either Left Wing or Right Wing but no matter who reports an event, the words of the speaker are etched in stone and when they start joking about their subject, it is whistling past the graveyard.

Here's more of the same with a description of many of the proponents.


?We are above the law of the land?


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## Coyote (May 24, 2013)

Hossfly said:


> Kondor3 said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...



WND is really a bad source - it's like Prison Planet or Media Matters.

The thing is - your new article still only gives the same tiny snippet of a quote: _If we are practicing Muslims, we are above the law of the land, said Mustafa Carroll, executive director of the Dallas-Fort Worth CAIR branch.
_

Surely you know how easily something can be taken out of context and distorted - you've seen that from both sides.


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## Coyote (May 24, 2013)

Hossfly said:


> Kondor3 said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...



So, to sum it up, you are unable to find the complete quote and are spinning in place trying to justify a lousy source?


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## Hossfly (May 24, 2013)

Coyote said:


> Hossfly said:
> 
> 
> > Kondor3 said:
> ...


I have a suspicion if I posted the US Constitution and the Bill of Rights it would be called a lie and a Right Wing plot.


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## sealadaigh (May 24, 2013)

Coyote said:


> Hossfly said:
> 
> 
> > Kondor3 said:
> ...



if there were the head of a american muslim organisation the magnitude of CAIR seriously advocating the replacement of our laws with shariah laws, it would be on the six o'clock news for days or weeks on end and arrests would be made.


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## sealadaigh (May 24, 2013)

Hossfly said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Hossfly said:
> ...



i doubt it. in fact, there is probably a higher probability that it would be called a left wing plot...except for the second amendment.


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## Coyote (May 24, 2013)

Hossfly said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Hossfly said:
> ...




I think there is a world of difference between a well recognized and easily available document such as the US Constitution and Bill of Rights and a snippet of a quote, about a religion, with no context or completeness....don't you?  Surely you can locate the entire talk?


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## Hossfly (May 24, 2013)

reabhloideach said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Hossfly said:
> ...


Isn't it strange that people from all over the world have come here for generations (and are still coming) and have had no problems living under the Constitution and the Bill of Rights, and yet there are others who want to live under the law of their religion and not of this great country to which they immigrated?


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## sealadaigh (May 24, 2013)

Hossfly said:


> reabhloideach said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...




 i think we have enough digressions going on. thanks.


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## Hossfly (May 24, 2013)

reabhloideach said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Hossfly said:
> ...


Who are you kidding, Seal.  A lot isn't on the news.  Was it on your news about a murdered Muslim woman living near San Diego, and C.A.I.R. was beating their drums that it was a hate crime (when it eventually was found out that it was the husband who killed his wife because she asked for a divorce?


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## Kondor3 (May 24, 2013)

The bottom line here is that Hossfly was challenged to produce evidence that 'many Muslims' in this country want to see Sharia Law implemented here in the United States.

He accepted the challenge and exceeded all expectations; producing viable media reports of the Chair of C.A.I.R making just such utterances at a public rally earlier this year, with other alarming related remarks embedded within that same article.

While we are arguing about the credibility of one media outlet, understand that that same story is splattered all over the Internet, and related stories have emerged about this same organization and leadership from higher-order media outlets, sufficient for our purposes here.

Hossfly has produced evidence in support of his contention; cited in multiple sources.

If one cares to challenge the credibility of the report then it is incumbent upon the challenger to produce evidence that contradicts the source.

Hossfly is correct in this instance - a personal bias or dislike against a source is not sufficient to cause the evidence to be discarded.

Just sayin'...


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## Coyote (May 24, 2013)

Kondor3 said:


> The bottom line here is that Hossfly was challenged to produce evidence that 'many Muslims' in this country want to see Sharia Law implemented here in the United States.
> 
> He accepted the challenge and exceeded all expectations; producing viable media reports of the Chair of C.A.I.R making just such utterances at a public rally earlier this year, with other alarming related remarks embedded within that same article.



The expectations must have been exceedingly low when you claim that a single snipped quote with no context and no link to the entire speech is "viable".  Think of all the out of context quotes that have been used to smear people.  At the very least I would hope someone would provide the original speech and no one seems to and sadly - wants to- before jumping to conclusions to smear Muslims.  If this were done towards Jews - you would be outraged.

When some makes the claim that "many Muslims" want to see Sharia Law implemented in the US I would expect to see something in the forms of polls or political activity indicating such.  I'm guessing you are unable to provide it and all you can do is use WND's bits and pieces of incomplete speeches.  That's pretty shamefully little "proof" in which to smear an entire group of Americans.



> While we are arguing about the credibility of one media outlet, understand that that same story is splattered all over the Internet, and related stories have emerged about this same organization and leadership from higher-order media outlets, sufficient for our purposes here.
> 
> 
> > What we are arguing about is the LACK of the complete quote and the fact that only this snippet seems to be floating around and it is only floating around in WND and the rightwing blogosphere which is sourcing from WND.
> ...



It is impossible at this point to "contradict it" because the COMPLETE QUOTE seems unavailable.  Usually, when that happens - one wonders if it was fabricated?



> Hossfly is correct in this instance - a personal bias or dislike against a source is not sufficient to cause the evidence to be discarded.
> 
> Just sayin'...



A personal bias, in this case - is not the reason for discarding the "evidence".  It's lack of evidence - as in complete evidence.

Just sayin'


P.S. - I assume you would be fine if I used Media Matters?


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## Saigon (May 25, 2013)

_&#8220;If we are practicing Muslims, we are above the law of the land,&#8221; said Mustafa Carroll, executive director of the Dallas-Fort Worth CAIR branch._

I do think this is a disturbing attitude, but at the same time, Mormons say the same thing. 

Any DEEPLY religious person is likely to hold loyalty to God above loyalty to law.


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## Kondor3 (May 25, 2013)

Saigon said:


> _&#8220;If we are practicing Muslims, we are above the law of the land,&#8221; said Mustafa Carroll, executive director of the Dallas-Fort Worth CAIR branch._
> 
> I do think this is a disturbing attitude, but at the same time, Mormons say the same thing.
> 
> Any DEEPLY religious person is likely to hold loyalty to God above loyalty to law.



The difference being that the _Mormons_ don't have present-day operational law-books which prescribe hanging gays and stoning adulterers (especially women) and cutting off the hands of thieves and other barbarities unknown in The West (_the lands of Christendom and its offspring_), and _they_ aren't looking to replace the US Constitution with _their_ law-books...


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## Kondor3 (May 25, 2013)

Coyote said:


> "...It is impossible at this point to 'contradict it' because the COMPLETE QUOTE seems unavailable.  Usually, when that happens - one wonders if it was fabricated?..."


If you have sufficient grounds to set aside the remarks on the grounds that they are fabricated, then that's that. If not, well... clearly, another approach seems indicated; conceding the likelihood that such remarks were made, pending further verification.



> "..._A personal bias, in this case - is not the reason for discarding the 'evidence'. It's lack of evidence - as in complete evidence. Just sayin_'"



We've already been over the 'likelihood' aspect (above).

Regarding the context...

Given the entirely UN-ambiguous nature of some of those remarks, I see no purpose in further delaying the inevitable - condemning such remarks as seditious and disloyal - with the understanding that further evidence may come to light to alter our judgment in future.

If you have a 30-second video-tape of a suspect cocking a gun and pointing it at the sales clerk, you don't need the 30 seconds before or after that timeframe to judge those taped 30 seconds, and you don't delay judgment just because more video tape may or may not surface later.



> "..._P.S. - I assume you would be fine if I used Media Matters?_"



Depends, but I may not be the best person to ask about media bias. Personally, I think most of 'em are full of $hit... Left, Right and even Center... they've all got agendas and axes to grind and they all spin facts their own way.

I might very well object to 'Media Matters' _SPIN_ on a fact, but I would not automatically speculate that they fabricated the FACT itself, just because the FACT does not bode well for my preconceived notions of the nature of the authors or originators of the fact.

-------------------

In your shoes (_hoping that the CAIR-Chair did not say this after all or that there's some other and reasonable explanation for the remarks, beyond their already-clear meaning_)...

About the best one can do under such circumstances is to say something along the lines of...

"_OK, well, that certainly seems to fulfill the challenge of demonstrating such an attitude on the part of the mainstream of that segment of the population. I would not mind seeing either a Denial from the speaker or an Explanation which a reasonable person could accept as altering the meaning of his words, but we do not yet have that in front of us, and we never may. Until such a time, reluctantly, I'm obliged to concede some merit to the point that you were trying to make, although it goes against the grain, and I remain unconvinced that this is sufficiently representative of the mainstream so as to render a final judgment in the matter."_

Or some hor$e$hit like that...


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## Saigon (May 25, 2013)

Kondor3 said:


> Saigon said:
> 
> 
> > _&#8220;If we are practicing Muslims, we are above the law of the land,&#8221; said Mustafa Carroll, executive director of the Dallas-Fort Worth CAIR branch._
> ...




Neither do more than 20 Muslim countries (have law books that prescribe hanging gays etc). 

The US regularly executes people - few Islamic countries do.


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## sealadaigh (May 25, 2013)

Saigon said:


> _If we are practicing Muslims, we are above the law of the land, said Mustafa Carroll, executive director of the Dallas-Fort Worth CAIR branch._
> 
> I do think this is a disturbing attitude, but at the same time, Mormons say the same thing.
> 
> Any DEEPLY religious person is likely to hold loyalty to God above loyalty to law.



it is probably a good idea in reports such as these to do a rudimentary search to see actually what was said and, if you cannot find a reliable source in the first few pages, well, i disregard it. something like this would be distorted easily and massaged to the writer's agenda.

i think also, people neglect to read the whole article. mustafa carroll seems to be joking.


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## MHunterB (May 25, 2013)

If he's joking - it would be in extremely poor taste and quite counter-productive.  I should hope a 'lobby' group would choose spokespeople who could better present their positions than that.......


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## SherriMunnerlyn (May 25, 2013)

MHunterB said:


> If he's joking - it would be in extremely poor taste and quite counter-productive.  I should hope a 'lobby' group would choose spokespeople who could better present their positions than that.......



lol, you call your lying scumbag Zionist propaganda outfits others spokesmen, pathetic describes your words here. A quote taken out of context and without even a source to document it was even made is worthless drivel.


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## SherriMunnerlyn (May 25, 2013)

MHunterB said:


> Sunniboy alleges that many Muslims share the views he's expressed ........



Zionist schill, so tell us what views you refer to you and where these alleged statements are made?


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## MHunterB (May 25, 2013)

What views I refer to, should be obvious from a reading of the previous discussion on this thread.  Perhaps if you go back and re-read those posts, you'll understand:  it was quite obvious.

One can access the entirety of any poster's past postings by clicking on their ID and then on the 'statistics' tab, and then on 'find all past posts by.....' - one can then look through the posts.  Try it, and you'll quickly see.


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## Kondor3 (May 25, 2013)

Saigon said:


> Kondor3 said:
> 
> 
> > Saigon said:
> ...



That is because those 20-and-more are not governed predominantly by Sharia, yes?

Within the sampling domain of those ruled exclusively or nearly-exclusively or in-large-part by Sharia, your results may vary a bit from your last (above).

And, of course, the use of Sharia is spreading throughout the Muslim part of the world, so, today's 20-and-more could very well be tomorrow's 15-and-more, then 10-and-more, etc.

But, it would be an interesting exercise to quantity and firm-up that perception.



> "..._The US regularly executes people - few Islamic countries do._"



What does that have to do with what happens once Sharia Law becomes operative in the context of Capital Crimes?

Oh, and, BTW, there's one other distinction to be made in this narrow context...

Within the universe of countries that have Capital Punishment on their books (_just so we don't get sidetracked on the ever-popular CP exercise in this narrow context_)...

There is one helluva big world of difference between a society that is willing to Kill a Killer, versus a society that is willing to Kill Gays.

And if you cannot see that, then I despair of your Moral Relativism barometer - with any luck, that's not the case here.


----------



## Saigon (May 25, 2013)

Kondor - 

Oddly enough, the most common basis for law in Muslim countries is English common law. But of course England had Egypt, Malaysia, Jordan etc as colonies, and much of that has remained in place. They still use Sharia in some areas of law, but it really is not the draconian nightmare people think of when they hear the word 'Sharia'.

It is difficult to really get clear figures on this, because the mix of Sharia and Common law varies from place to place so much.


----------



## Hossfly (May 25, 2013)

reabhloideach said:


> Saigon said:
> 
> 
> > _If we are practicing Muslims, we are above the law of the land, said Mustafa Carroll, executive director of the Dallas-Fort Worth CAIR branch._
> ...


Was Mustafa Carrol joking? I don't think so. He made a joking statement about people worrying about sharia but the tenet of his speech wasn't to compete with David Letterman in the joke department. These people are dead serious.

CAIR TX -- stated "Muslims living in America should not be bound by U.S. law... ? Act For America Omaha Chapter


----------



## Kondor3 (May 25, 2013)

Hossfly said:


> "...Was Mustafa Carrol joking? I don't think so. He made a joking statement about people worrying about sharia but the tenet of his speech wasn't to compete with David Letterman in the joke department. These people are dead serious..."


I tend to agree, and, from what (little) I understand of similar utterances elsewhere, at other times, by both himself and others in the leadership cadre of that NPO, it also seems sufficiently in-character so as to lend some additional credence to the report in the interim.

IMHO, words have meanings, and are intended to be construed at face-value, and this is certainly no exception.

If we eventually see a Denial ('I did not say that') or we see a Retraction ('I misspoke in the heat of passion and I am sorry.') or we see a Reasonable Context-Sensitive Alternative Explanation (what I really meant to say was, or what I was trying to convey was) for using those words, then folks can always backpedal and adapt; however, given both the Meaning of the Words and the Receptive Audience and Past History - folks will construe his words at face-value... meaning exactly what they say.

To the best of my knowledge, this took place at a rally in Houston earlier this year, and to the best of my knowledge, we have seen neither a Denial nor a Retraction nor a Reasonable Context-Sensitive Alternative Explanation that would cause a fair and reasonable person to set aside the face value of those words.

Lord knows, there's been enough passage of time in which to undertake such a counterpointing, had there been a basis for doing so, in light of the viral nature of the story on the Internet, and, if no effective counterpoint has been put forward in all this time, that is yet another nail in the coffin of alternative explanations.

If folks objecting to this (_taking Mustafa Carroll's words at face-value_) as an Incorrect or Premature Judgment can effectively counterpoint the face-value meaning of Carroll's utterances through Denial or Retraction or Viable Alternative Explanations, then we've still got a ball-game, but, at present, we're heading in the bottom of the 9th, tied, the Home Team (_the take-at-face-value crowd_) has bases loaded and nobody out, and the team's power-hitter (_lack of evidence to the contrary_) is batting with a 3-0 count in his favor, and the pitcher for the Away-Team (_those seeking to explain this away as harmless or fabricated or misreported_) is fading and has just about 'had it'.

Subject to recall in the event that something worthwhile surfaces from Carroll or CAIR at some future date, and switching games in the end...

Game / Set / Match to Hossfly on this one... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




Or so it seems to this observer...


----------



## sealadaigh (May 25, 2013)

Hossfly said:


> reabhloideach said:
> 
> 
> > Saigon said:
> ...



all you are really proving to me is that the number of muslim hate sites in the USA are limitless and that, if muslim youth are exposed to this kind of fookin' vile shite on a regular basis (and they are) it is a wonder that more bombings don't occur.

hell, i am an irish catholic and the constant exposure to this bigoted crap almost makes me want to join them. imagine if we targeted black americans like this, or asian americans, or mormons, or gays, or jews.

click on the homepage to your link...which is the same article as the opening post.

i have no idea exactly what mustafa carroll said or in what context...and we could spin things in many different ways. try this, and i won't mention names, but "evangelical christian advocates shackling black man to flag pole and whipping him for celebrating american way of life." we can put all kinds of spins on things...how about this..."after advocating the whipping of black american, southern christian man condemns another black american for defending the constitutional".

those are eamples of entirely accurate statements by themselves but the context is absent. i am merely trying to show you how things can be twisted to fit an agenda or or whatever reason.

i did a search...and got hate site after hate site after hate site before i actually got to some sort of legitimate news site...

Muslims try to counter Sharia fear - San Antonio Express-News

which doesn't really address the specifics but it does lend perspective. i don't see any difference between sharia law or judaic law or christian law canon law or whatever other than the fact that people have become accustomed to the use of the word "law" in these cases.

explain this,,,later in the article...

"Carroll began joking about the widespread concern about Shariah, the religious code that governs Muslim civil and political life.

We tried to downplay Shariah, because we didnt want to give the other side any excitement for being here, he said.

He dismissed critics who express concern about Shariah, calling them anti-foreign.

When you even say the word Shariah, people get nervous. We are not advocating for Shariah. We are not trying to make Shariah the law of the land, he said.

Carroll claimed Muslims only want the right to practice our faith.

But he also said, If you understand Shariah, the foundation of our faith  how we treat our neighbor, how we treat our parents  how we participate in society, all of that is part of Shariah.

you make me sick.


----------



## Book of Jeremiah (May 25, 2013)

Hossfly said:


> reabhloideach said:
> 
> 
> > Saigon said:
> ...



Which is why we have to get ALAC - American Law for American Courtrooms passed in all 50 states.  This is why CAIR is fighting against everyone who is behind ALAC including Brigitte Gabrielles org ACT & the many Chapters working on this tirelessly.  It was just passed in Alabama.  Other states will follow.  It is only a matter of time.


----------



## Kondor3 (May 25, 2013)

Frankly, one need look no further than the unfolding of demands for Sharia Law and Sharia Courts in parts of the UK and other parts of Europe, once they build-up a sufficiently large population in a region to begin pushing such a latent agenda.

Those who are in the Tolerance-At-All-Costs camp will certainly attempt to duck and weave and dodge over this one as well, but there is enough ammunition online, with respect to demands for Sharia in the UK, to put that one to rest, for the most part.

Those who are in the Tolerance-Until-You-Try-to-Force-Your-Agenda-On-Us camp are a bit more receptive to the Hard Realities of encroaching Islam in Europe.

There's no need to press the Panic Button over here just yet but we *DO* need to keep our eyes and ears open and be ready to slap back the ears of those who would try to make (_or foolishly grant_) such inroads on this side of The Pond, when the need arises.

(_notice, I say, in my biased way, 'when', and not 'if'_)


----------



## sealadaigh (May 25, 2013)

Kondor3 said:


> Frankly, one need look no further than the unfolding of demands for Sharia Law and Sharia Courts in parts of the UK and other parts of Europe, once they build-up a sufficiently large population in a region to begin pushing such a latent agenda.
> 
> Those who are in the Tolerance-At-All-Costs camp will certainly attempt to duck and weave and dodge over this one as well, but there is enough ammunition online, with respect to demands for Sharia in the UK, to put that one to rest, for the most part.
> 
> ...



somewhere from his watery grave, osama bin laden must be laughing as americans shake in fear and try to eliminate the freedoms the constitution gave them,

you are aware (i would hope) that any law written prohibiting muslims the free practise of their religion will also apply to to those who practise other religions.

be very careful when you try to open this pandora's box. it will affect you in ways not seen yet. these "bans" on sharia law would also be "bans" on judaic law, christian law, and etc.


----------



## Kondor3 (May 25, 2013)

reabhloideach said:


> Kondor3 said:
> 
> 
> > Frankly, one need look no further than the unfolding of demands for Sharia Law and Sharia Courts in parts of the UK and other parts of Europe, once they build-up a sufficiently large population in a region to begin pushing such a latent agenda.
> ...



Or, alternatively, OBL is looking up from his very special place in Hell, gnashing his teeth over the idea that Americans are finding ways to keep his beloved Sharia off the books while preserving the freedoms that their Constitution gave them.



> "..._you are aware (i would hope) that any law written prohibiting muslims the free practise of their religion will also apply to to those who practise other religions_..."



Yes. I am aware that such a law will prohibit the introduction of strictly Religious bodies of law - of any kind - as an integral part of the laws of this land - it's merely a reinforcement of our time-honored principle of Separation of Church and State. If a Religion exists which requires their own laws superceding their country's, else risk a limitation on the practice of their Religious Beliefs, then, the Constitutional Principle of "Separation of Church and State" must be given a greater weight than "Freedom of Religion" on behalf of ALL The People.

Besides... not to worry... I mean... after all... we're being told that Muslims do NOT want to implement Sharia as superseding and dominant in THIS country - right? - isn't that what we're being told? - so, no biggie - if what we're being told is true, then this should never surface as a contentious issue, right? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	






> "..._be very careful when you try to open this pandora's box. it will affect you in ways not seen yet. these '"bans' on sharia law would also be 'bans' on judaic law, christian law, and etc_."



I am not aware that Judaic Law nor Christian (Canon?) Law are presently operative in the United States in a distinct and recognizable manner, so, this does not seem to present a problem for the foreseeable future.

I agree with you that great care must be taken when contemplating such Law and when crafting and implementing and enforcing such Law, but, the need for Great Caution should not be the cause for Paralysis of Will when preparing to counter an aggressive idealogy.


----------



## sealadaigh (May 25, 2013)

Kondor3 said:


> reabhloideach said:
> 
> 
> > Kondor3 said:
> ...



and i am not aware of shariah law being practised in a distinct and recognisable manner or, if it is, it is already in violation of current laws.

i think most people have no idea exactly what shariah law is and how irt is being practised.

if you don't see judaic or christian laws in conflict with civil laws etc, i mean we have the get law and the some prohibitions on circumcisions and polygamy prohibitions and all kinds of starnge things governing the interactions between a man and a woman...for one.

would you care to discuss eruvim and city zoning and municipal ordinances?

exactly what prohibition on shariah law do people want that already isn't in place.

do not confuse a "paralysis of will" with an unwillingness to indulge in knee jerk, bigoted actions generated by histrionic fear.


----------



## Kondor3 (May 25, 2013)

reabhloideach said:


> _and i am not aware of shariah law being practised in a distinct and recognisable manner or, if it is, it is already in violation of current laws._



Agreed. It is not on-the-books in a distinct and recognizable manner.



> "..._i think most people have no idea exactly what shariah law is and how irt is being practised_..."



Doesn't matter... our people want Separation of Church and State... and State includes the law courts... and anything that proposes or insists or demands to the contrary will be stomped on by The People of this country, God bless 'em.



> ".._.if you don't see judaic or christian laws in conflict with civil laws etc, i mean we have the get law and the some prohibitions on circumcisions and polygamy prohibitions and all kinds of starnge things governing the interactions between a man and a woman...for one_..."



Doesn't matter. In this country, Secular Law trumps Canon Law every time.



> "..._exactly what prohibition on shariah law do people want that already isn't in place_..."



More solid and explicit legal barriers and prohibitions so that Sharia cannot get even a toe-hold here, as it has in the U.K. and parts of Europe, where less solid and explicit barriers failed to prevent the infiltration and compromising of local law by is Sharia counterpart.

Anything and everything that can be done to prevent it, apparently.



> "..._do not confuse a 'paralysis of will' with an unwillingness to indulge in knee jerk, bigoted actions generated by histrionic fear._"



Do not confuse '_knee-jerk bigoted actions generated by histrionic fear_' with 'proactive preventative measures' brought about by observable and problematic scenarios visible in sister-countries equipped with kindred laws and barriers which failed to stop such an outcome in whole or in part.


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## skye (May 25, 2013)

*Gaza Students: Clean the World of Jews  *


With that sort of  destructive and negative rhetoric coming from  students in Gaza .... is it any wonder peace is so hard to achieve in that region of the world?


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## Hossfly (May 25, 2013)

reabhloideach said:


> Hossfly said:
> 
> 
> > reabhloideach said:
> ...


Still babbling, Seal.  Have  you ever thought that you have made many posters and viewers nauseated over the years with your nonsense?   But carry on, since it is apparent you have nothing else to do.  We all realize that parts of Sharia Law have to do with family, etc.  However, what have you to say about Muslims who feel it is quite OK to kill apostates.  Imagine that.  They live here in America with so many different religions and nobody is killing others who convert to Islam, but God forbid the opposite happens.


----------



## MHunterB (May 25, 2013)

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> MHunterB said:
> 
> 
> > If he's joking - it would be in extremely poor taste and quite counter-productive.  I should hope a 'lobby' group would choose spokespeople who could better present their positions than that.......
> ...



This is a fine example of an incoherent rant which was also a complete non sequitur.


----------



## SherriMunnerlyn (May 25, 2013)

Saigon said:


> Kondor -
> 
> Oddly enough, the most common basis for law in Muslim countries is English common law. But of course England had Egypt, Malaysia, Jordan etc as colonies, and much of that has remained in place. They still use Sharia in some areas of law, but it really is not the draconian nightmare people think of when they hear the word 'Sharia'.
> 
> It is difficult to really get clear figures on this, because the mix of Sharia and Common law varies from place to place so much.



It is mixed up in Iran. I was asking my husband about the distinction between religious courts and other courts and he could not explain it. But he was sure the religious courts and their rules for Muslims did not apply to Christians and Jews. He said maybe they had their own religious courts, these other two groups, he did not know. In schools, children of different religious have separate religious classes, but otherwise attend school classes  together. I was reading about Malaysia which is 50% Muslim.They have Sharia courts to deal with certain issues, for Muslims only. A bad thing about this is an individual is labelled as a Muslim from birth, based on their parents being Muslim,  and laws prevent such things as changing religions.


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## Coyote (May 25, 2013)

Kondor3 said:


> I am not aware that Judaic Law nor Christian (Canon?) Law are *presently operative in the United States in a distinct and recognizable manner*, so, this does not seem to present a problem for the foreseeable future.



Neither is Sharia.  So what's the point of this ignorant law other than to single out Muslims?


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## Coyote (May 25, 2013)

Kondor3 said:


> Do not confuse '_knee-jerk bigoted actions generated by histrionic fear_' with 'proactive preventative measures' brought about by *observable and problematic scenarios* visible in sister-countries equipped with kindred laws and barriers which failed to stop such an outcome in whole or in part.



What visible scenarios?


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## SherriMunnerlyn (May 25, 2013)

skye said:


> SherriMunnerlyn said:
> 
> 
> > skye said:
> ...



Why are you blaming all Gaza students for lies attributed to them by a lying Zionist?


----------



## RoccoR (May 25, 2013)

SherriMunnerlyn; _et al,_

What are the salient points that you think are important.



SherriMunnerlyn said:


> Why are you blaming all Gaza students for lies attributed to them by a lying Zionist?


*(QUESTIONs)*

Relative to .gif "Gaza Students: Clean the World of Jews"



			
				 Declaration on Principles of International Law concerning Friendly Relations and Co-operation among States said:
			
		

> In accordance with the purposes and principles of the United Nations, States have the duty to refrain from propaganda for wars of aggression.
> 
> *SOURCE:* DECLARATION ON PRINCIPLES OF INTERNATIONAL LAW FRIENDLY RELATIONS AND CO



Do you think that this dialog adheres to the UN Principles.

Do you think that this particular ".gif" has a suggestive undertone?  What message do you think this ".gif" intended to send?

Most Respectfully,
R


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## Kondor3 (May 25, 2013)

Coyote said:


> Kondor3 said:
> 
> 
> > Do not confuse '_knee-jerk bigoted actions generated by histrionic fear_' with 'proactive preventative measures' brought about by *observable and problematic scenarios* visible in sister-countries equipped with kindred laws and barriers which failed to stop such an outcome in whole or in part.
> ...


Why don't we begin with the United Kingdom, and the Sharia Courts that have been allowed to spring-up in Muslim-dominated areas of the U.K. - and to which Muslims are expected to go for Enclave-Internal / Ghetto-Internal civil and domestic law and disputes, rather than going to the British law courts - and given that these Sharia courts are sending women suffering from domestic violence back to abusive husbands and children of trouble marriages back to the abusing husband etc etc etc.

The very fact that Sharia Courts exist as a substitute for British law courts is an outrage.

Their misogynistic perspective is medieval and unforgivable in this day-and-age.

Their very existence undermines British law.

That the Brits conceded this all-important first point is contemptible.

That gets us started... we can go on and on if you like... but to what end?

Sharia Law and Sharia Courts do NOT belong as part of the fabric of Western society.


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## P F Tinmore (May 25, 2013)

Lipush said:


> Saigon, recent poll showed that more than 60% of Palestinians support terror attacks against Israel.



Link?


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## P F Tinmore (May 25, 2013)

Roudy said:


> *Poll Shows 85% of PA Arabs Support Terror*
> Two recent polls find a vast majority of Arabs supporting terror attacks and a growing Israeli majority opposed to further withdrawals.
> By Ezra HaLevi
> 
> ...



This is the report. Terrorism is not mentioned.

PSR poll 46 - Full analysis


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## P F Tinmore (May 25, 2013)

Saigon said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> > Saigon said:
> ...



The Palestinians never wanted war.


----------



## member (May 25, 2013)

Kondor3 said:


> *"The very fact that Sharia Courts exist as a substitute for British law courts is an outrage."*



you have every right to be outraged.  it's...scary too.  i don't blame you. the little things  here, they think they are immune from our laws, and it doesn't apply to them.  
like...there was a BIG issues about "THEM" not wanting to remove their VEILS from their faces while they take their drivers' license picture. ...
PATHETIC ISN'T IT ? *AND... in the ISLAMIC MUTHALAND*....she _"ain't"_ EVEN allowed to drive.  total insanity.


----------



## P F Tinmore (May 25, 2013)

Lipush said:


> *the star of david is obviously symbolic of israel in this case and not all jews.*
> 
> It symbolized Hamas hates all Jews.
> 
> ...



Hamas has no problem with the Jews, the problem is only with the Israeli occupation which is based on the Zionism, Haneya told reporters after the meeting.

Gaza - Hamas Meets Neturei Karta Rabbis in Gaza Strip -- VosIzNeias.com


----------



## RoccoR (May 25, 2013)

P F Tinmore; Lipush;  _et al,_

Polls are just an insight, an educated hunch.



P F Tinmore said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> > Saigon, recent poll showed that more than 60% of Palestinians support terror attacks against Israel.
> ...


*(RESEARCH REFs)*

40 percent of Muslim Palestinians support terror attacks against civilians

Poll: 68 Percent of Palestinians Support Peace Talks If Settlements Frozen



			
				Poll: Hamas loses popularity among Palestinians 04/10/2013 said:
			
		

> Wednesdays poll, which was based on a sample of 1,179 people over the age of 18 and has a 3 percentage point margin of error, found that more than 80 percent of Palestinians support nonviolent means of resistance against Israel.
> 
> About 60% said that military operations harm Palestinian national interests.
> 
> ...


*(COMMENT)*

There are polls on everything.  Think of them as "spot assessments" or a snapshot in time.  They are one data point along the continuum of time.  The Palestinians can change their mind tomorrow.  You can't see the trend until you have a string of data points.  

The best indicator of Palestinian support for terrorism is the expression of support for organizations like Hamas and their Charter; or, the support they show for people like Samer Issawi; a known insurgent.

Most Respectfully,
R


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## Hossfly (May 25, 2013)

P F Tinmore said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> > *the star of david is obviously symbolic of israel in this case and not all jews.*
> ...


Hey, Tinnie, next time this very, very tiny group meets with the crazies in Iran, perhaps if you grow a beard, they will let  you accompany them.  It's amusing how this miniscule group of Jews is a favorite of the NeoNazi/Islamofascist hate sites.  By the way, Tinnie, this group believes that when the Messiah comes, the only people living in Israel will be the Jews.  When you go with them to Iran, could you ask them where they think  your fellow Arabs will land up when the Messiah comes?


----------



## P F Tinmore (May 25, 2013)

High_Gravity said:


> Saigon said:
> 
> 
> > ForeverYoung436 said:
> ...



Indeed, all these people ranting about Gaza. How many have been there?


----------



## RoccoR (May 26, 2013)

P F Tinmore,  _et al,_

One doesn't need to visit outer space to know it is danger and hazardous to your health.  One doesn't need to visit a volcano to know they can be dangerous and hazardous to your health.

One doesn't need to meet a serial killer to know that they are dangerous.  One doesn't need to be in a firefight to know you can get killed in one.

One doesn't need to drive to the ghetto to know they are dangerous at night.  And one doesn't need to sit at a casino table to know you can lose a lot of money at one.



P F Tinmore said:


> Indeed, all these people ranting about Gaza. How many have been there?


*(COMMENT)*

Gaza is a third world city.  Yes! it has hotels, restaurants and attractions.  It has some very fine wine and dining.  It has some very wholesome entertainment.  

But it is also true that the people of Gaza have embraced the Hamas stance against Israel.  And even Egypt has taken a second look at the curious nature of Hamas.  You may have not noticed _(in recent times)_, but  Egyptian Army Engineers have flooded a network of tunnels, destroyed dozens more, and Egyptian courts has authorized the demolition of all the other tunnels on national security grounds.

Think about that for a minute.  You don't have to be there to know that if the Egyptians see a "national security" issue, that Hamas may very well be a regional security issue and a threat to peace.

You don't have to step into the fire to know that you can get burned; or, maybe you do.  It is all a matter of being able to assimilate the information available and digest it.  But we do teach our children to not play with fire.

Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## Saigon (May 26, 2013)

P F Tinmore said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> > Saigon, recent poll showed that more than 60% of Palestinians support terror attacks against Israel.
> ...



I haven't seen any reseach on this, although one survey I have read found that 39% of people in Lebanon might support terror attacks. 

I do think that is a fairly alarming finding, but on the other hand - when people with bombing, violence and terror on an almost daily basis, it is hardly surprising. 

If we asked Israelis whether they would accept the use of, say, chemical weapons in Gaza, the results would likely be similar. 

Should peace ever breakout and hold for a few years, only then would we get a clearer impression of how Palestinians regard terror.


----------



## Lipush (May 26, 2013)

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> skye said:
> 
> 
> > SherriMunnerlyn said:
> ...



Why do you hate all israelis just because you think our policies suck?


----------



## Lipush (May 26, 2013)

P F Tinmore said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> > *the star of david is obviously symbolic of israel in this case and not all jews.*
> ...



Since when are neturey karta jews?

Since.when does hamas NOT uses Taquiyya?


----------



## SherriMunnerlyn (May 26, 2013)

Saigon said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Lipush said:
> ...



The thing is Israels attacks on civilians and other war crimes  are a regular daily event for Palestinians, which are essentially acts of terror, so many simply may see the use of terror as simply a proportionate response to Israels terror. I do not think that is the best way for them to respond to Israel's terror, I think nonviolent resistance is the better response.


----------



## Lipush (May 26, 2013)

And what IS 'non-violent resistance" exactly?

It's a myth, they're almost always violent and hurt the blameless.!


----------



## Kondor3 (May 26, 2013)

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> "..._The thing is Israels attacks on civilians and other war crimes  are a regular daily event for Palestinians_..."


Many folks operate under the impression that Israel does not launch attacks unless provoked either by first-strikes on the part of others or build-ups of threatening assets that need to be taken-out before they can do harm to Israelis, and that when Israelis hit civilians it is almost always because they were nearby to a legitimate military target.

Of course, it doesn't help the Palestinian civilian population that their Fighters choose to deploy rocket-launchers and to establish operational bases embedded deep within civilian population centers, disdainful of the cost to their own civilians. Pigs.

And, something tells me that if Israel were committing actual War Crimes on a daily basis against the Palestinians that the rest of the world would have heard something about it by now.

What are these War Crimes that Israel commits daily?

Inquiring minds want to know.


----------



## Saigon (May 26, 2013)

> What are these War Crimes that Israel commits daily?



All of these have been mentioned by HRW:

Collective punishment

Detention without trial

Use of torture

Destruction of crops, homes and forms of business without due process

Use of particular weapons against or near civilian targets


----------



## P F Tinmore (May 26, 2013)

Kondor3 said:


> SherriMunnerlyn said:
> 
> 
> > "..._The thing is Israels attacks on civilians and other war crimes  are a regular daily event for Palestinians_..."
> ...



http://www.usmessageboard.com/israel-and-palestine/114169-israel-attacks-civilians.html


----------



## Kondor3 (May 26, 2013)

Saigon said:


> > What are these War Crimes that Israel commits daily?
> 
> 
> 
> All of these have been mentioned by HRW:



Personally, I wouldn't trust HRW to report objectively on The Holocaust or the Armenian Genocide or the genocides of Genghis Khan, never mind objectivity regarding Israel - but that's just me.

I think we need an NPO or NGO in the mix that routinely examines both sides of the coin in depth and which interviews both sides and which examines documentation and witnesses from both sides and which has no preconceived outcomes in mind and is capable of dealing with the practicalities of asymmetrical warfare in a life-and-death struggle with a modicum of realism rather than idealism. And no such critter exists, insofar as I am aware.



> "..._Collective punishment_..."



That is rather wide-open, and I'm sure that things such as The Blockade are tossed in there for good measure, along with civilians being hit during counterstrikes, etc. Well, if you don't want a Blockade, and you don't want casualties, don't attack without provocation, although I'm sure that HRW avoids such fine distinctions.



> "...Detention without trial..."



This one is believable, although I'm not sure that's a 'War Crime', but more like a Civil Rights issue, or a bit of Judicial Wrongdoing.

Bottom line... I have no problem believing that the Israelis detain Palestinians without trial on a regular basis; most of them terror suspects or known fighters, a handful of them innocents, as well. Once captured, they can't let them loose again, or else they get another chance to kill more Israelis, and that would be foolhardy indeed. And, given that they cannot be let loose, detaining them is better than putting a bullet in the back of their heads and shoveling them into the ground, as the Palestinians have been known to do to captured Israeli soldiers. I'm sure that that, too, escapes the notice of our esteemed HRW.



> "...Use of torture..."



Doubtful, at least on a broad basis, although, personally, I would have little difficulty believing that some over-eager Israeli cop or soldier-interrogator beats the crap out of an occasional Palestinian fighter, to learn the whereabouts of a high-profile leader or rocket launcher depot or some-such thing. Such is the nature of assymetrical warfare and life-and-death struggles. Ugly.



> "..._Destruction of crops, homes and forms of business without due process_..."



True enough, I expect.

The Israelis continue mop-up and consolidation operations in reclaiming all of Eretz Yisrael.

Vae victus.



> "..._Use of particular weapons against or near civilian targets_"



True enough, I expect.

The Palestinians can stop that anytime they wish.

By moving their rocket launchers and operational bases away from civilian population centers.

Until then...

Asymmetrical warfare is, indeed, a bitch.


----------



## SherriMunnerlyn (May 26, 2013)

Saigon said:


> > What are these War Crimes that Israel commits daily?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



And they have been mentioned by Amnesty and The International Red Cross and DCI Palestine and Btselem and WHO and the UN Human Rights Council and UNICEF and Rabbis For Human Rights and The International Court Of Justice (it discussed the illegal settlements and the illegal Wall in 2004). And there are many others. On the UNISPAL website, monthly reports are produced and filed that document daily human rights abuses of the Occupation day by day. Essentially, every national and local human rights groups that exist in our world  are regularly documenting Israels war crimes carried out in her Occupation.


----------



## SherriMunnerlyn (May 26, 2013)

Kondor3 said:


> SherriMunnerlyn said:
> 
> 
> > "..._The thing is Israels attacks on civilians and other war crimes  are a regular daily event for Palestinians_..."
> ...



The illegal Blockade of Gaza is collective punishment and a war crime. The illegal settlements are war crimes. The unlawful detentiin of Palestinian prisoners are war crimes. The regular torture of children and other prisoners are war crimes. Attacks on civilians and civilian objects that violate The Fourth Geneva Convention are war crimes. The attacks on protesters involve the unlawful use of force and are war crimes. These are all continuous and daily war crimes. And there are many more war crimes not addressed. Unlawful attacks on civilians and civilian objects are never ever sanctioned by intl law. It is not a defense to war crimes, the claim the opponent committed war crimes.


----------



## P F Tinmore (May 26, 2013)

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> Kondor3 said:
> 
> 
> > SherriMunnerlyn said:
> ...



*Post of the day!*


----------



## Kondor3 (May 26, 2013)

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> Saigon said:
> 
> 
> > > What are these War Crimes that Israel commits daily?
> ...


Asymmetrical warfare is a bitch, isn't it? The Palestinians can end it any time they wish.

When you come up with an NPO or NGO that has dispassionately and objectively evaluated both sides evenly and consistently with respect to the events related to this asymmetrical warfare, perhaps people will pay more attention. Until then, not so much, I fear.


----------



## SherriMunnerlyn (May 26, 2013)

Lipush said:


> And what IS 'non-violent resistance" exactly?
> 
> It's a myth, they're almost always violent and hurt the blameless.!



It is staying in your home when you face daily attacks by illegal settlers. It is weekly nonviolent protests in villages like Nabi Saleh. It is the Gaza student Facebook campaigns exposing human rights abuses of Occupation that hundreds of thousands join in in our world. Those students in Gaza are beautiful ansd inspiring young people and filled with life and love, no natter how much Zionists like you and the likes of you try to quench it. It is BDS. It is samud. The Palestinian committment to samud only grows stronger with each Injustice of Occupation.  Hope springs eternal. Truth is always brought inro the light. And Injustices like Occupations always have an end.


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## Lipush (May 26, 2013)

those protest are full of violent, just the way the Palestinians kill our brothers in Judea and Samaria and then cry when the masses react.

Their goal is one- to destroy Israel.

That is the only truth that matters!


----------



## SherriMunnerlyn (May 26, 2013)

Kondor3 said:


> SherriMunnerlyn said:
> 
> 
> > Saigon said:
> ...



The world shall never ever accept Zionist attempts to whitewash their war crimes. Funny or ironic is remembering how alleged ancestors of Zionists were called for whitewashing their crimes by Jesus in Matthew 23. They crucified Jesus but He and His message still live. Truth shall always be brought into the light.


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## Saigon (May 26, 2013)

Kondor3 said:


> When you come up with an NPO or NGO that has dispassionately and objectively evaluated both sides evenly and consistently with respect to the events related to this asymmetrical warfare, perhaps people will pay more attention. Until then, not so much, I fear.



I disagree - I have found the HRW site generally fair and objective. 

Israel tends to fare worse in discussions about law because they are, in effect, the law, whereas many terrorists attacks are not made under the auspices of any government, military or police action. 

But the points I listed above are worth checking out, IMO. 

Here is one story from HRW:

(Jerusalem)  Israel should strengthen an announced reduction of its military use of white phosphorus munitions by banning all use of air-burst white phosphorus munitions in populated areas without exception. Human Rights Watch has also urged all countries to make white phosphorus illegal when used as an incendiary weapon.

Israel: Strengthen White Phosphorus Phase-Out | Human Rights Watch


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## SherriMunnerlyn (May 26, 2013)

Lipush said:


> those protest are full of violent, just the way the Palestinians kill our brothers in Judea and Samaria and then cry when the masses react.
> 
> Their goal is one- to destroy Israel.
> 
> That is the only truth that matters!



The violence is predominantly instigated by Israel, who does things like blind Jewish American protesters and seriously injure and kill protesters by acts like attacking them with tear gas canistors and dummy bullets and even live ammunition. You Israeli Zionists get off on demonizing and  hurting and killing Gentiles, it is the essence of who you are, Occupiers and human rights abusers and baby killers. But Palestinian students and others in the OPT simply remain steadfast in the face of all of the evil you vomit on them, that includes your lies in your OP in this thread.


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## Kondor3 (May 26, 2013)

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> "..._The illegal Blockade of Gaza is collective punishment and a war crime_...


I seriously doubt that it can classified as a War Crime within the realm of objective real-world thinking, even if misguided or malevolent literalists construe thus.

Nations impose naval blockades as the military or political need arises.

Did the United States commit a War Crime when it imposed a Naval Blockade upon the Confederacy during the American Civil War? Did the US commit a War Crime when it imposed a Naval Blockade upon Cuba during the 1962 Missile Crisis?

I'm not talking about Treaties and Signatories and Effective Dates... I'm talking about Ethics.



> "..._The illegal settlements are war crimes_..."



Doubtful, in a _practical_ sense.

Perhaps the Palestinians should have met the Israelis half-way while they were still interested in talking to them.

Bad judgment on the Palestinians' part.

Too late to whine about it now.



> "..._The unlawful detentiin of Palestinian prisoners are war crimes_..."



Possibly. Technically. But better that than (a) turning them loose again to kill Israelis or (b) killing them outright, to ensure that they can do no more harm.



> "..._The regular torture of children and other prisoners are war crimes_..."



The regular torture of children?

Not bloody likely.

The regular torture of others?

Not bloody likely.

Infrequent torture applied in selective situations based upon pending danger?

Perhaps, from time to time, as happens in asymmetrical warfare.



> "..._Attacks on civilians and civilian objects that violate The Fourth Geneva Convention are war crimes_..."



It's also a war-crime on the part of the Palestinians to position thier rocket launchers and operational bases within civilian population centers but they do it anyway.

If it's a choice between allowing those launchers and bases to continue hitting Israelis unimpeded or destroying them (_and sometimes triggering civilian Palestinian casualties in the process_), then I would vote for destroying those launchers and bases, and, if I have to take-the-hit for a bullshit accusation of committing a War-Crime, I have the consolation of knowing more of my people are still alive because I had the courage to take-out those launchers and bases, consequences be damned.

An entirely understandable thing for the Israelis to do.

The Palestinians can stop hiding behind their womens' skirts anytime they want (_in positioning these war assets amongst their civilian population_) but they won't; it's both a tactical advantage and a public relations cow that they milk regularly. They really *DO* have to get some new material.



> "..._The attacks on protesters involve the unlawful use of force and are war crimes_..."



Yes... each and every attack by a government on a group of protestors since time began is a War crime, isn't it? You're really much like the little boy (or girl) who cried 'wolf' once too often. I'm sure that by the time you're done, an Israeli looking cross-eyed at a Palestinian will be categorized as a War Crime. You're really reaching on this one and it shows.



> "..._These are all continuous and daily war crimes. And there are many more war crimes not addressed. Unlawful attacks on civilians and civilian objects are never ever sanctioned by intl law. It is not a defense to war crimes, the claim the opponent committed war crimes._"



Yes... very nice, I'm sure.


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## RoccoR (May 26, 2013)

Saigon; Kondor3;  _et al,_

Some of these are not "war crimes" as truly defined.  Some of these are not substantiated claims (mistaken facts).  But the real issue, as to whether any of these claims are even valid is rooted in the discussion of "first event."



Saigon said:


> Kondor3 said:
> 
> 
> > What are these War Crimes that Israel commits daily?
> ...


*(PREFACE)*

Hostile Arab/Palestinians (HoAP), of all variety, make one basic claim; that the are the victim of an illegal occupation _(victimization)_ and that all hostile activity they initiate are related to their right to self-determination, freedom and independence.  The basic claim is that the HoAP, was forcibly deprived of that right under  a form of colonial and apartheid regime (Israeli).   And in being so deprived of their rights, are entitled to the use of force in whatever capacity they may find opportunity to exploit.

The HoAP see all of the Jewish People as complicit participants, in whatever boundary expressed, to an invasion by a foreign aggressor resulting in an annexation by the use of force of the territory of sovereign integrity of Palestine.   They see the UN, and all the Subsidiary Committees, Commissions, Boards, Councils, Panel, Working Groups and Courts as allied with them as the victim; giving them tacit, if not direct approval, to conduct what hostilities they may find available to them, in order to secure the deprived rights, lands and properties.  They see the UN, and its bodies, as approving the sending  of armed bands, groups, irregulars, insurgents, terrorists, or mercenaries, which carry out acts of armed force against the Jewish State; which they see as an illegal occupation of Palestine.

*(COMMENT)*

With that as a backdrop, then anything that Israel does, in an effort to secure the integrity of its territorial borders, the sovereignty of their nation, and the protection of their people, is in contravention to established law.

Everyone knows and understands that the HoAP has weapons.  They use these weapons _(rockets as an example)_.  Everyone knows they have bomb makers _(Samer Issawi as an example)_.  Everyone understands that the HoAP is a threat to the security of Israel.

The Serious Questions:

The question that has to be addressed is relative to the legitimacy of the State of Israel.   At what point does the International Community see Israel as a legitimate nation? 

When did Israel lose its right to defend itself against:

HoAP insurgents and terrorist?
Adjacent hostile aggressors?
External Influence, such as the IRCG-QF, promoting conflict?

The extent to which Israel is considered in violation of "war crimes" and "crimes of aggression" starts with a determination on the status of the legitimacy of the state, and the determination of which party _(Israel 'vs' HoAP)_ is the aggressor with the stated goal of annihilation of the other; which party is considered the initiator of the Hostilities?  Which party is considered the defender and the aggressor?

Also, what must be taken into consideration is the "mental" capacity of the HoAP to distinguish between right and wrong.  Do the Palestinians support terrorism?
Is Suicide Bombing Justified?




SOURCE:  Disturbing New Data on Palestinian Support for Suicide Bombing​
Most Respectfully,
R


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## SherriMunnerlyn (May 26, 2013)

Rocco, suicide bombings are a thing of the past in Palestine, they stopped years ago. Just let it go, this baseless claim they desire suicide bombings and love to commit suicide bombings,  it is not true.  And let it go,  your hate and demonization of them, let it all go. Free yourself of all this hate you are enslaved by. Occupations are not supposed to last over 40 years, the Israeli Occupation of Palestine became  unlawful a long time ago. All that is lacking is an Opinion by The Intl Court of Justice confirming this. But I read a Special Rapporteurs Report years ago concluding the Occupation was unlawful. And people have the right to resist Occupations, their resistance, even armed resistance, is 100 percent lawful under intl law. Israel has no right to claim self defense as long as her unlawful Occupation of Palestine continues.


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## P F Tinmore (May 26, 2013)

RoccoR said:
			
		

> Hostile Arab/Palestinians (HoAP), of all variety, make one basic claim; that the are the victim of an illegal occupation (victimization) and that all hostile activity they initiate are related to their right to self-determination, freedom and independence. The basic claim is that the HoAP, was forcibly deprived of that right under a form of colonial and apartheid regime (Israeli). And in being so deprived of their rights, are entitled to the use of force in whatever capacity they may find opportunity to exploit.





You are finally getting it.


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## Hossfly (May 26, 2013)

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> Rocco, suicide bombings are a thing of the past in Palestine, they stopped years ago. Just let it go, this baseless claim they desire suicide bombings and love to commit suicide bombings,  it is not true.  And let it go,  your hate and demonization of them, let it all go. Free yourself of all this hate you are enslaved by. Occupations are not supposed to last over 40 years, the Israeli Occupation of Palestine became  unlawful a long time ago. All that is lacking is an Opinion by The Intl Court of Justice confirming this. But I read a Special Rapporteurs Report years ago concluding the Occupation was unlawful. And people have the right to resist Occupations, their resistance, even armed resistance, is 100 percent lawful under intl law. Israel has no right to claim self defense as long as her unlawful Occupation of Palestine continues.


It's funny to see Frau Sherri call Rocco a hater and demonizer when she is the one who is really the hater and demonizer.  Anyone with any brains at all can see that Rocco, as a result of his career, knows exactly what has been going on and is willing to share with us what he knows.  I don't think anyone but a hater herself would call Rocco a hater.  Frau Sherri only makes herself look like a fool pulling out her usual shtick ad nauseam about someone being a hater and demonizer because she didn't like what he posted


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## RoccoR (May 26, 2013)

SherriMunnerlyn;  _et al,_

A couple points I would like to make.



SherriMunnerlyn said:


> Rocco, suicide bombings are a thing of the past in Palestine, they stopped years ago. Just let it go, this baseless claim they desire suicide bombings and love to commit suicide bombings,  it is not true.  And let it go,  your hate and demonization of them, let it all go.


*(COMMENT)*

This is not a demonization effort; at least not in the same sense as the reverse is true.

The mention of the "Suicide Bombing" data was relative to the "mental capacity" and "thought processes" of the HoAP _(Hostile Arab/Palestinian)_, and not to the active strategy in play.  I thought I made that clear, that it was exemplary and not a charge.  If I did not make it clear, I am now.  

While you can claim that Palestinians do not embrace suicide bombings, in the specific, they do embrace the concept of "martyrdom."  And that is a question of mental capacity and competency.



SherriMunnerlyn said:


> Occupations are not supposed to last over 40 years, the Israeli Occupation of Palestine became  unlawful a long time ago. All that is lacking is an Opinion by The Intl Court of Justice confirming this. But I read a Special Rapporteurs Report years ago concluding the Occupation was unlawful. And people have the right to resist Occupations, their resistance, even armed resistance, is 100 percent lawful under intl law.


*(COMMENT)*

Without regard to what you might interpret as being declared "lawful" by the International Court, the promotion of terrorism _(in any form)_ and the support of an armed insurgency _(against a sovereign nation)_ is unlawful.  There is no justification for the targeting of civilians in Israel relative to the Occupation of any territory lost in conflict by the aggressor (HoAP).

For more than four decades, attempts to reach an amicable arrangement with the Palestinians have met with negative results.  Even today, the US Secretary of State is trying to kick-start negotiations for a settlement and peace; even Israeli President Shimon Peres _(Nobel Laureate)_, is asking for the two sides to come together.



SherriMunnerlyn said:


> Israel has no right to claim self defense as long as her unlawful Occupation of Palestine continues.


*(COMMENT)*

Both side agree on one thing:  There is a conflict in progress.  And while there is a conflict in progress, a military occupation cannot be "illegal;" it is a consequence of war.  International Law does not set term limits on "occupation."  The International Law address the conditions the Occupation Force sets over the occupied territory and the customary fashion in which such land is administered.   Theoretically, as long as the UN doesn't establish another Mandate (Trusteeship), the Occupation can last indefinitely.  The International Law establishes the responsibility of the Occupation Authority. 

Remember, no International Law prohibits "military occupation" during times of conflict.  Normally, at the end of open hostilities, it is traditional for the winner to set the tone for negotiations.  However, in this case, the HoAP are trying to set the terms and demands.  It is the HoAP that is continuing the conflict.

Most Respectfully,
R


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## RoccoR (May 26, 2013)

P F Tinmore,  _et al,_

Paul, my friend, I understood this all the time.  I just don't agree with it.

I've been trying to get you to adopt a 21st Century Paradigm.  _(Not that I have a cobblers chance in Vegas.)_



P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


*(COMMENT)*

This is a conception that needs to be abandon.

Most Respectfully,
R


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## MHunterB (May 26, 2013)

P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Not exactly, Sherlock:  Rocco is getting that the above claim is a farce and a sham and a LIE.   It's you and others who insist Israel shouldn't have been 'allowed' to exist who aren't 'getting it'.


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## sealadaigh (May 26, 2013)

Hossfly said:


> SherriMunnerlyn said:
> 
> 
> > Rocco, suicide bombings are a thing of the past in Palestine, they stopped years ago. Just let it go, this baseless claim they desire suicide bombings and love to commit suicide bombings,  it is not true.  And let it go,  your hate and demonization of them, let it all go. Free yourself of all this hate you are enslaved by. Occupations are not supposed to last over 40 years, the Israeli Occupation of Palestine became  unlawful a long time ago. All that is lacking is an Opinion by The Intl Court of Justice confirming this. But I read a Special Rapporteurs Report years ago concluding the Occupation was unlawful. And people have the right to resist Occupations, their resistance, even armed resistance, is 100 percent lawful under intl law. Israel has no right to claim self defense as long as her unlawful Occupation of Palestine continues.
> ...



not to criticise rocco specifically, but it is a bit erroneous to suggest that someone, because of their career, knows exactly what is going on or, even if they do, to consider their opinion objective.

i am quite sure ismail haniyah is more familiar with the situation than rocco, are you going to blindly accept his version of what is going on.

rocco's opinions are skewed in favour of zionism i think he would admit that.


----------



## P F Tinmore (May 26, 2013)

RoccoR said:


> P F Tinmore,  _et al,_
> 
> Paul, my friend, I understood this all the time.  I just don't agree with it.
> 
> ...



OK, we can abandon anything that is not true.


----------



## SherriMunnerlyn (May 26, 2013)

MHunterB said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > RoccoR said:
> ...



Why in this world should anyone buy the mind reading of a Zionist schill like you?  Let the man speak for himself, Zionist schill.


----------



## MHunterB (May 26, 2013)

A little advice for sherrimunnerliar, per Tom Leher:  "Don't write naughty words on walls if you can't spell".    : ))


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## MHunterB (May 26, 2013)

"not to criticise rocco specifically, but it is a bit erroneous to suggest that someone, because of their career, knows exactly what is going on or, even if they do, to consider their opinion objective.

i am quite sure ismail haniyah is more familiar with the situation than rocco, are you going to blindly accept his version of what is going on.

rocco's opinions are skewed in favour of zionism i think he would admit that. "


LOL, seal - very droll indeed!  Oh, Haniyah might be more familiar with the situation than Rocco - but then Haniyah is more than a little 'skewed' as to his opinions.

At least Rocco is working at attempting to be objective.   Haniyah, OTOH, is a total ideologue whose views are completely one-sided and unrealistic.

Between the two, Rocco's words are much more trustworthy.


----------



## RoccoR (May 26, 2013)

P F Tinmore,  _et al,_

It is critical, in any real analysis, that you understand your opponent; what they believe, what they know, and what drives them in their decision making process.

It is also very important, as an analyst, that you don't lie to yourself; intellectually shifting the facts to fit the outcome that you desire.

I know what the Palestinian sees as the truth from their perspective.  I couldn't help but know, because they have spared little tact in telling me so.  You, and our friend SherriMunnerlyn, have been quite frank in your expressed assessment of the situation _(differing only in the perspective of a Gazian "vs" West Banker)_.

It is essential that each sized _(of the dispute, as well as the outside observers)_ understand that the sum total of the events that have brought us forward from the first half of the 20th Century --- to the  --- first half of the 21st Century were a culmination of exceptionally poor leadership decisions (on both sides), coupled with the need to achieve a higher rung on the ladder of Maslow's hierarchy of needs.  Humanity, and its propensity for mistakes _(the human factor)_, compounded the cascade failure overtime.



> "The very essence of leadership is that you have to have a vision. It's got to be a vision you articulate clearly and forcefully on every occasion."
> -- Theodore Hesburgh, President of the University of Notre Dame​
> "There's nothing more demoralizing than a leader who can't clearly articulate why we're doing what we're doing."
> --  James Kouzes and Barry Posner​



In this case, a complete series of failures, from the outset, by nearly every major participant, including the UN/LoN, 



P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > Paul, my friend, I understood this all the time.  I just don't agree with it.
> ...


*(COMMENT)*

What I said, the way I said it, is true _(for the most part)_.  But in order to meet the goal of "peace," some reality must creep into the equation.

My thought is, that the HoAP is not attempting to achieve the goal of "peace."  Thus, they cannot move forward.  They want land, power, and the dismantlement of Israel.  Those are not the factors that will lead to peace.

When the HoAP changes their goal to "peace," the conditions will be set for successful negotiations.

Most Respectfully,
R


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## SherriMunnerlyn (May 26, 2013)

I do not think now is the time for Palestinians to talk about peace, I think they should keep demanding Israel abide with intl law and get their baby killing soldiers and land stealling illegal settlers and their spawn out of Occupied Palestine, which includes East Jerusalem and the West Bank. ISRAEL has no sovereignty rights in these lands. The Palestinians should take a stand and demand Israel fully comply with intl law.


----------



## RoccoR (May 26, 2013)

SherriMunnerlyn,  _et al,_

To the extent as this statement goes, it is headed towards the right track.



SherriMunnerlyn said:


> I do not think now is the time for Palestinians to talk about peace, I think they should keep demanding Israel abide with intl law and get their baby killing soldiers and land stealling illegal settlers and their spawn out of Occupied Palestine, which includes East Jerusalem and the West Bank. ISRAEL has no sovereignty rights in these lands. The Palestinians should take a stand and demand Israel fully comply with intl law.


*(COMMENT)*

In this statement, you are not threatening violence.  

The next step is for the PA (Mahmoud Abbas) and the Israelis (Benjamin Netanyahu) to sit down and workout the details.

Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## SherriMunnerlyn (May 26, 2013)

Abbas: New government within weeks Published yesterday (updated) 26/05/2013 15:21. "AMMAN, Jordan (Maan) -- President Mahmoud Abbas said Saturday that the leadership in Ramallah was working to form a unity government within weeks.*It may need the coming two weeks, Abbas told Ma'an on the sidelines of a global economic forum in Jordan." Abbas: New government within weeks | Maan News Agency


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## sealadaigh (May 26, 2013)

MHunterB said:


> "not to criticise rocco specifically, but it is a bit erroneous to suggest that someone, because of their career, knows exactly what is going on or, even if they do, to consider their opinion objective.
> 
> i am quite sure ismail haniyah is more familiar with the situation than rocco, are you going to blindly accept his version of what is going on.
> 
> ...



i have no idea as to either rocco's objectivity or haniyah's and have no idea how i would determine either. haniyah has moved away from the covenant. that doesn't sound like a total idealogue to me.

i do know that your determination of both is based upon their political stance and how closely they align with yours. the same hold true about your evaluation of their trustworthiness. i don't find either particularly not worthy of trust.

personally, i find haniyah's views more realistic, at least in regards to the current situation, and more realistic than netanyahu's, kerry's, and abbas' views.

you will not have peace over there. israel is too greedy and their political structure is a hindrance to that efforts and america lacks the will to dictate conditions.

my discussion on rocco is over. he is not a topic. my discussion was more about how experience and familiarity does not necessarily equate to objectivity. thank you for agreeing with me.


----------



## MHunterB (May 26, 2013)

"i do know that your determination of both is based upon their political stance and how closely they align with yours. the same hold true about your evaluation of their trustworthiness."  

This is not accurate at all.  You are very wrong about all of that.  Simply because someone's views are very far from mine does NOT have anything to do with how much I trust or respect them.  There are posters here who have expressed views with which I very much disagree whom I respect and trust.  And there are those whose views are similar to mine who I do not respect or trust.


----------



## MHunterB (May 26, 2013)

"my discussion on rocco is over. he is not a topic. my discussion was more about how experience and familiarity does not necessarily equate to objectivity. thank you for agreeing with me."



A 'discussion' involves more than one person:  you presume to know 'both sides' of a discussion.  WRONG.   And NO, I wasn't agreeing with you, because you misrepresent your previous 'discussion' in the above quote.

It could never matter, by the way, if some people absolutely agreed with every word of mine:  there are some I can find ZERO reason to respect OR trust.


----------



## sealadaigh (May 26, 2013)

MHunterB said:


> "i do know that your determination of both is based upon their political stance and how closely they align with yours. the same hold true about your evaluation of their trustworthiness."
> 
> This is not accurate at all.  You are very wrong about all of that.  Simply because someone's views are very far from mine does NOT have anything to do with how much I trust or respect them.  There are posters here who have expressed views with which I very much disagree whom I respect and trust.  And there are those whose views are similar to mine who I do not respect or trust.



that may be true. i have witnessed neither. you hide it well.

now say "good night gradie" or "thank you, roudy". whichever strikes yyou.


----------



## SherriMunnerlyn (May 26, 2013)

RoccoR said:


> SherriMunnerlyn,  _et al,_
> 
> To the extent as this statement goes, it is headed towards the right track.
> 
> ...



I have no idea what your comment is about that in that statement I am not threatening violence. I never threaten violence. Abbas needs  to work out the divided government problem before he approaches binding  the Palestinians to any agreement. He simply presently lacks legitimacy and support of the people necessary  to bind the Palestinians to any agreement.


----------



## sealadaigh (May 26, 2013)

MHunterB said:


> "my discussion on rocco is over. he is not a topic. my discussion was more about how experience and familiarity does not necessarily equate to objectivity. thank you for agreeing with me."
> 
> 
> 
> ...



your discussion, in essence, had very little to do with my initial satement. rocco was a personality in the discussion and i chose to end that part of it because you appeared to become distracted.

my point, and my only point, was that one's involvement in a situation or knowledge based upon that involvement has very little to do with the objectivity of their opinion.


----------



## sealadaigh (May 26, 2013)

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > SherriMunnerlyn,  _et al,_
> ...



i have never seen sherri threaten any type of violence.


----------



## P F Tinmore (May 26, 2013)

RoccoR said:


> SherriMunnerlyn;  _et al,_
> 
> A couple points I would like to make.
> 
> ...





> Both side agree on one thing:  There is a conflict in progress.



I am glad you mentioned this. This is a key point. This conflict has been in progress since WWI. The Palestinians were at home minding their own business when Israel went to Palestine with the stated goal of taking Palestine for themselves. This was an unprovoked attack on Palestine. The Palestinians fought against this takeover then, and they continue to do so today.

Israel claims that it won land in a defensive war. Both lies.


1) Israel is clearly the aggressor.

2) The Palestinians have never surrendered. Israel has won nothing.



> For more than four decades, attempts to reach an amicable arrangement with the Palestinians have met with negative results.



The major flaw in the "peace" process since its inception is the *precondition* that the Palestinians surrender to Israel. This is something that the Palestinians have been rejecting for over 70 years. They have the right to reject such "offers."


----------



## Kondor3 (May 27, 2013)

P F Tinmore said:


> "..._They have the right to reject such 'offers.'_"



They also have the right to abandon a hopeless cause and move their families elsewhere and to begin new and far happier lives, elsewhere.

There's no need for the Palestinians to surrender... it's already over... the Israelis are just mopping-up and fleshing-out their borders and consolidating their gains now.


----------



## P F Tinmore (May 27, 2013)

Kondor3 said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > "..._They have the right to reject such 'offers.'_"
> ...



In your dreams.


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## Kondor3 (May 27, 2013)

P F Tinmore said:


> Kondor3 said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...









*Tick... tick... tick...*


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## SherriMunnerlyn (May 27, 2013)

Lipush said:


> The Hamas-affiliated student union in Gaza published a cartoon Tuesday in which a person whose body is made of a Palestinian Authority flag is seen throwing a Star of David  one of the best-known Jewish symbols  into a garbage can.
> 
> Text under the picture says, Keep the world clean.
> 
> ...



Back to the OP, this article does not even tell us where this alleged cartoon was published. And I expect it was drawn by one person, and we have no idea who drew it. I do not see it as anything but propaganda.Certainly, the drawing  is not a statement by Gaza students about anything at all. Sherri


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## SherriMunnerlyn (May 27, 2013)

Here is an illustration of real racism and it is a video produced by Israeli college students.


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## Kondor3 (May 27, 2013)

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> "Here is an illustration of real racism and it is a video produced by Israeli college students..."



You think *that's* bad?

Here's an illustration of real racism and it is a video produced by the Palestinian television media and *sanctioned by the Palestinian shadow-governmen*t...


*Poisoning the minds of little children*...

Much younger than college students...

But, then again, when you consider their political-spiritual roots...











...we really should not be all that surprised.


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## SherriMunnerlyn (May 27, 2013)

Kondor3 said:


> SherriMunnerlyn said:
> 
> 
> > "Here is an illustration of real racism and it is a video produced by Israeli college students..."
> ...



lmao at this propaganda piece. Can you do no better than that?


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## Kondor3 (May 27, 2013)

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> "..._lmao at this propaganda piece. Can you do no better than that?_"


Chances are, I probably could, but whatever for? This is damning enough, and sufficient to the day.


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## Hossfly (May 27, 2013)

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> Kondor3 said:
> 
> 
> > SherriMunnerlyn said:
> ...


This is Palestinian propaganda. Are you critical of Palestinians too? Good for you There's hope for you still.


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## Kondor3 (May 27, 2013)

Hossfly said:


> "..._This is Palestinian propaganda. Are you critical of Palestinians too? Good for you There's hope for you still._"


Well, the _*video*_ is Palestinian propaganda, anyway.

I'm pretty sure that they wish that the _still-photos_ would just go away, however... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




Strong *Naz*i connections do *not* look good on a 'resume'...


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## SherriMunnerlyn (May 27, 2013)




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## SherriMunnerlyn (May 27, 2013)

​


Kondor3 said:


> SherriMunnerlyn said:
> 
> 
> > "..._lmao at this propaganda piece. Can you do no better than that?_"
> ...



I think its hilarious, funny, you exposing Zionists for the propaganda producers they are.  And this one video seems to be the favorite, which has been posted over and over and over and exposed as fake with inaccurate translations of words. And I love laughing at you. Keep on showing me your Zionist propaganda.  The video is daming alright, it damns Zionists.


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## SherriMunnerlyn (May 27, 2013)

How MEMRI fooled the U.S Media with its Mickey Mouse Translation

Ali Alarabi

May 14, 2007How easy was it for MEMRI to fool so many of the US media outlets with its translation of a children program on Hamas TV, where a child was supposedly have said the words*" we will annihilate the Jews"It was very easy!The controversy was fueled further when CNN decided to yank the video off the air because of major translation errors on part of MEMRI.First let me just say that I reviewed the Arabic version of the MEMERI clip which looked discontinuous and disjointed because the context of the conversation in the show did not seem to be coherent. However, at the bottom of this page you will find my corrections of MEMERI translation errors.The inflammatory words MEMRI blasted the US media with were when the young caller "Sanable" was supposed to have said "we will annihilate the Jews" were not even mentioned by the caller or by anyone else in that clip."Sanable actually said "The Jews are shooting us" which is entirely different word and different meaning and which makes me wonder as to where in the world the words "we will annihilate the Jews come from"*  :: www.uruknet.info :: informazione dal medio oriente :: information from middle east :: [vs-1]


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## Kondor3 (May 27, 2013)

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> ​
> 
> 
> Kondor3 said:
> ...


Coming from an Arab-Muslim-Palestinian propaganda fountain, that's high praise indeed.

I am glad that this amuses you.

It amuses the rest of us as well, although not for the same reasons.



> "..._And this one video seems to be the favorite, which has been posted over and over and over and exposed as fake_..."



Exposed as fake? Doubtful.



> "..._with inaccurate translations of words_..."



Fine. What we need is a Western Sympathizer - but non-Jewish - who understands Arabic - to render a better translation for us.

You can even translate this for us yourself, assuming that you don't mind being double-checked by a Western-sympathetic soul who also understands Arabic.



> "..._And I love laughing at you_..."



That's what I'm here for.

To entertain you.



> "..._Keep on showing me your Zionist propaganda_..."



Only when it becomes necessary to counterpoint a piece of Arab-Muslim-Palestinian propaganda that you dragged-out first. Otherwise, the whole thing is quite a bore.



> "..._The video is daming alright, it damns Zionists._"



We have only your word for this.

That is insufficient for our purposes here.


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## SherriMunnerlyn (May 27, 2013)

Kondor3 said:


> SherriMunnerlyn said:
> 
> 
> > ​
> ...



We have much more than my word, I already produced an article exposing the translation as inaccurate.


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## Kondor3 (May 27, 2013)

One article, that questions a translation of one video...

And from an *IRAQI* news organization, to boot...

(snicker)

But let's say for a moment that they're right...

Shall we trot-out a couple of dozen other videos from that same Palestinian children's program, brainwashing their children to hate Jews and to kill Israelis and how honorable and desirable it is to achieve martrydom?

Going the matresses?

More like tapping into the last of the seed corn...






The original translation attributed to the video would be in-keeping with the mindset of a people who train their children for martyrdom...

People who do that are hateful, spiteful people, with neo-Nazi *delusions* of grandeur and very little grasp of reality...

I seriously doubt that the video was forged or altered or misinterpreted, and I doubt even further that it was some kind of tactic on the part of the Israelis...

They serve-up a little more high-class propaganda then your average Palestinian Billy-Jo-Abdul's street-corner kabob of manufactured and lying drivel, and would be embarrassed to produce the kind of low-grade pablum that the Palestinians crank-out...

They understand 'subtle' in ways you cannot even begin to fathom...

I doubt that the video in question was manufactured, but, if it was, there are dozens - scores - of other easy-to-find videos of a higher quality and less questionable editing that should both (a) withstand a closer scrutiny and (b) serve-up the same kind of Palestinian poisoning of children's minds...

The rest is trivial arguing over a flea...


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## SherriMunnerlyn (May 27, 2013)

I am sorry but Zionist propaganda sites that mistranslate the words of children have been exposed as lies. MEMRI and its ilk have no credibility. NOT worth watching even, unless one desires an opportunity to laugh anew at those damned and oh so  desperate  Zionists.


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## Hossfly (May 30, 2013)

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> I am sorry but Zionist propaganda sites that mistranslate the words of children have been exposed as lies. MEMRI and its ilk have no credibility. NOT worth watching even, unless one desires an opportunity to laugh anew at those damned and oh so  desperate  Zionists.


If Frau Sherri wasn't so pathetic, you would have to laugh at her.  She is like a one-woman propaganda machine who seems to forget that people now realize how many children have been killed by her Muslim friends -- children who have been Christians, Hindus, Buddhists, and even  Muslims of different sects.  Evidently Frau Sherri doesn't ever concern herself with these children because there are no Jews involved.  If Frau Sherri wasn't so busy running around the Internet day and night bashing the Jews and Israel, she would have some time to even write a few scripts for those Arab cartoons which teach the children how to hate the Jews and how wonderful it is to be a Shahid.  Maybe she can find a way to incorporate Minnie Mouse into one of these cartoons to accompany the Mickey Mouse-like character.


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## Annika55 (Jun 1, 2013)

reabhloideach said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> > *the star of david is obviously symbolic of israel in this case and not all jews.*
> ...




The caption under the cartoon is reported to be:
 *Keep the world clean.*


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## SherriMunnerlyn (Jun 1, 2013)

Annika55 said:


> reabhloideach said:
> 
> 
> > Lipush said:
> ...



And we have no idea who drew the picture or wrote those words, no idea at all. 

We have no idea what source published the picture and where and when, no idea, no idea at all.

And what they meant, we all form our very own opinions about that. 

We dont even know if the picture is depcted accurately, or translated accuratel. Presumably, the words were in Arabic.

We dont know what a\else was written in the publication either. 

I call the OP and article pure unadulterated Propaganda!

Sherri


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## Annika55 (Jun 1, 2013)

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> Annika55 said:
> 
> 
> > reabhloideach said:
> ...


in general, you are correct. Cartoons usually do require readers to use words and images to make conclusions about the author's intended meaning.

The source presents the following information in the above link.

"*The Hamas-affiliated student union in Gaza published a cartoon Tuesday in *which a person whose body is made of a Palestinian Authority flag is seen throwing a Star of David  *one of the best-known Jewish symbols  into a garbage can.*

*Text under the picture says, Keep the world clean.*

The cartoon uses a Star of David rather than an explicitly Israeli symbol, indicating that it is meant to refer to Judaism or the Jewish nation as a whole and not the state of Israel alone.

*The student union in question is known as the Islamic Bloc  in Arabic, al-Kutla al-Islamiya. It operates in high schools, universities and other educational institutions in Gaza. Its primary purpose is to teach the next generation about the importance of, in Hamas words, freeing Palestine from the Israeli occupation."*


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## P F Tinmore (Jun 1, 2013)

Annika55 said:


> SherriMunnerlyn said:
> 
> 
> > Annika55 said:
> ...





> Its primary purpose is to teach the next generation about the importance of, in Hamas words, freeing Palestine from the Israeli occupation."



Hamas specifically mentioned the Israeli occupation. Jews were not mentioned.


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## sealadaigh (Jun 1, 2013)

Annika55 said:


> SherriMunnerlyn said:
> 
> 
> > Annika55 said:
> ...



when people see a star of david they associate thaat with the jewish state more than they do when they see the menora, and i am sure the palestiniaans students do as well.

arutz sheva seven is the worst of the israeli mainstream press...the least objective. why would i believe what may or may not be an naccurate translation from them or the meaning.

you might have a case if the palestinian flag figure was a crescent moon snd star figure. flags to flags...it is graphic communication and is supposed to be easily recognisable. when people want to make a clear graphic representation of the USA, they use the stars and stripes.

the bottom line too is, even if it was as bad as arutz sheva would lead us to believe, the complaints such as this are played out. the whining in the past about such ridiculous matters has left your audience deaf.


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## Hossfly (Jun 1, 2013)

P F Tinmore said:


> Annika55 said:
> 
> 
> > SherriMunnerlyn said:
> ...


They probably think just like you, Tinnie.  They think all of the area (Palestine), including Israel proper, is occupied by the Israeli Jews.   Moreover, there are probably a lot of Muslims who would like to rid the world of Jews, such as the sign we have seen carried by a Muslim woman saying that Hitler should have finished the job.


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## SherriMunnerlyn (Jun 1, 2013)

Annika55 said:


> SherriMunnerlyn said:
> 
> 
> > Annika55 said:
> ...



We only have the words of an Israeli propaganda source for any of this. Where is the link to the article where the cartoon was published?


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## P F Tinmore (Jun 2, 2013)

Hossfly said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Annika55 said:
> ...



Why would they think such a thing?


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## SherriMunnerlyn (Jun 2, 2013)

P F Tinmore said:


> Hossfly said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



Just listening to this video by Miko Peled again, link below, he says the same thing, all of Palestine is occupied by Israel. 

And that is what the international legal authorities say, too, like The Intl Court of Justice.

And what Miko Peled further says is that this is Zionism and exactly what Zionists want. 

They, Zionists,  wanted to conquer the land and de- Arabize the land. 

It is that second goal they are still working on.  

Thinking a moment about the cartoon that was drawn by some unknown and unnamed person somewhere, and how an occupied and ethnically cleansed people should look upon their ethnic cleansers and the murderers of 1519 of their children since 2000, thinking of them as something that needs to be gotten rid of seems a rather mild response and held back response to me. 

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=ynWjYHP91gA]If Americans Knew What Israel Is Doing! VIDEO WAS CENSORED! - YouTube[/ame]

Sherri


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## SherriMunnerlyn (Jun 2, 2013)

That cartoonist responsible for the drawing addressed in the OP may be remaining anonymous out of fear of being imprisoned over his cartoon. 

Palestinian cartoonists seem to have become targets of Zionists these days. 

I should stop asking for posters to dig up his name, we might be placing his freedom and life in danger by exposing him for drawing a cartoon.

Sherri


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## RoccoR (Jun 2, 2013)

SherriMunnerlyn; P F Tinmore; Hossfly; _et al,_

First, there is a certain amount of truth to this, although I totally discount any argument made in support of Palestinian Victimization and the Child Death agenda pounded by SherriMunnerlyn.

Remember, the mistreatment of the Palestinian is a direct result of the 65 years of conflict promoted by, inspired by, and encouraged by, the Palestinians themselves.  After six decades of conflict, initiated by the Palestinians, supported by the Arab League, and now facilities even more by the Iranians, the Palestinians have a  lot of gull to suggest that they are totally blameless for this outcome.



SherriMunnerlyn said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Hossfly said:
> ...


*(COMMENT)*

In my standard response to SherriMunnerlyn's ethnic cleans and child mortality issue:  The deaths ratios are a direct result of Palestinians putting their children in harms way, and the outcome of provocations the Palestinians instigated.  Stop the confrontations and the associated casualties will stop.

Relative to the plight of the Palestinian, yes - there is a cause of action, and the Palestinian should lay that dispute before the international court.  Not initiate conflict.

As for US Policy!  The video shows sounds bites of several FSOs _(Foreign Service Officers - Diplomatic Corps)_.  But they were part of the problem and instrumental in shaping US Policy.  Today, a year or two in the region will convince, just about any reasonable observer, that the US needs to back away from any involvement in the Middle East and Persian Gulf.  There has not been a single effort, diplomatic or militarily, that the US has undertaken that resulted in an unqualified success.  And we've learned for a second time, that a military victory does not guarantee a diplomatic success.  We need to understand that in the Middle East & Persian Gulf, disputes are settled in blood.  And we should let that cultural practice continue, unobstructed by the western belief as to how barbaric it is.  We need the region to seek its own balance by it own means.  When balance is achieved, then we can deal with the survivor.

But the Palestinian created the conditions in which they now find themselves.  They can change it just by altering their behavior.  Is it fair?  Probably not!  But life isn't fair.

Most Respectfully,
R


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## P F Tinmore (Jun 2, 2013)

RoccoR said:
			
		

> In my standard response to SherriMunnerlyn's ethnic cleans and child mortality issue: The deaths ratios are a direct result of Palestinians putting their children in harms way,..



You should be ashamed of yourself for pimping Israel's lies.

Virtually all Palestinian children are killed in their own neighborhoods or even in their own homes where it is normal for them to be.

It is Israel that goes into Palestinian neighborhoods to kill people.


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## Hossfly (Jun 2, 2013)

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Hossfly said:
> ...


Meanwhile, Frau Sherri has no problem with her friends trying to have a worldwide Caliphate on this planet today -- no matter whom they kill who gets in their way.  If only all American Christians knew what you friends are doing to their brethren in Moslem countries.  Since Frau Sherri is always so concerned with children, I wonder if she can tell us how many children have been killed in the Syrian conflict so far.  It looks like the Muslims want to de-Christian Egypt, even though these Christians are the descendents of the original followers of Jesus.  Does Frau Sherri, that "good Christian woman" care about this?  Evidently not.

Egyptian Muslims murdering Christians with impunity - International - Catholic Online


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## Hossfly (Jun 2, 2013)

P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Perhaps it is you who should be ashamed of yourself, Tinnie, for trying to push your Arab point-of-view on the readers.  I think the readers quite realize by now that Rocco is quite informed about the truth of things even though you will never ever accept what he says.  Rocco, it is like knocking your head against the wall if you are trying to get Tinnie to accept the truth.


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## RoccoR (Jun 2, 2013)

P F Tinmore;  _et al,_

There are no troops at all in Gaza.  Deaths there are inadvertent relative to a response initiated by the militia.

In the West Bank, it is a result of a confrontation in nearly every case.  And nearly every case, the confrontation is initiated by the Palestinians and not the Occupation Force.  No confrontation results in no casualties.



P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


*(COMMENT)*

This is a propaganda ploy to draw world-wide sympathy for the HoAP.  Nothing more.  It is part of an organized campaign. The idea is to instigate a confrontation that results in the exploitation in the media.

Yes, there will be, from time to time, a poorly handled event in which the fault rests with the IDF.  That happens everywhere in the world with police and security forces.  It will happen even more often when there is a belligerent citizenry that is intentionally provoking the IDF.

But remember, the key here is that casualties are a direct result of a confrontation.  Reduce the number of confrontations and you reduce the catalyst for casualties.  

*(NOW)*

Are there cases that can be cited where the IDF may have exercised excessive force.  It would be unreasonable to say not.  Of course, in the case where every day the IDF faces a HoAP population, belligerent in nature, YES! of course.  But given the number of confrontations, the hostility of the occupation, and the number of intentional incidents that are developed, the overall success rate of the IDF is much better than nearly every other country with a third-world mentality and an unproductive culture.

Like any large metropolitan area in the US, where the situation is much, much better, there are adverse confrontations with police.  The number of adverse confrontation increases in a totally hostile environment which is populated by a barbaric population that represents a threat to regional security and the territorial integrity of Israel.  That is the entire reason for the occupation and the quarantine of Gaza. 

Most Respectfully,
R


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## P F Tinmore (Jun 2, 2013)

Hossfly said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > RoccoR said:
> ...



It is the truth. You can call it what you like.


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## P F Tinmore (Jun 2, 2013)

RoccoR said:


> P F Tinmore;  _et al,_
> 
> There are no troops at all in Gaza.  Deaths there are inadvertent relative to a response initiated by the militia.
> 
> ...



Of course those confrontations happen when Israel goes into Palestinian neighborhoods to attack them.


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## RoccoR (Jun 2, 2013)

P F Tinmore;  _et al,_

Wait!  May be you want to restate this point.



P F Tinmore said:


> Of course those confrontations happen when Israel goes into Palestinian neighborhoods to attack them.


*(COMMENT)*

This presupposes that the IDF just got-up one day and said:  "Today would be a good day to attack some defenseless Palestinians."  _(*SARCASM: *  Yeah, like everyone is going to believe that!)_​
I contend that nearly every confrontation is a response to something the HoAP did.  

Occupation is a response to contain and suppress a threat from a culture that has openly told the world that it will not recognize the legitimacy of Israel.  This threat is aligned itself with multiple regional threats to the Middle East and Persian Gulf. 

Most Respectfully,
R


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## SherriMunnerlyn (Jun 2, 2013)

I think I shall be forever haunted by the story of one particular child killed who lived in an orphanage. His mother sent him there because she could not afford to take care of him. He was walking to or from school when he was killed by Israeli airstrikes unlawfully targeting municipal buildings. For this child, I could not even find a photo, I searched all over the internet for a photo, to no avail. His mother was interviewed, she said soon she was going to send another child to the orphanage. Heartbreaking stories of childrens lives needlessly cut short by an Occupiers unlawful targeting of civilians, which includes children.  Sherri


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## SherriMunnerlyn (Jun 2, 2013)

RoccoR said:


> P F Tinmore;  _et al,_
> 
> Wait!  May be you want to restate this point.
> 
> ...



That is exactly what Israel did, Israel launched tbe first attack in CL as Students were changing shifts at their schools, it was 11:35 am. The streets were filled with children.


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## SherriMunnerlyn (Jun 2, 2013)




----------



## SherriMunnerlyn (Jun 2, 2013)

> Hannukah and Operation Cast Lead: One year later
> 
> Posted by rabbibrian on December 18, 2009
> 
> ...



Hannukah and Operation Cast Lead: One year later « Rabbibrian's Blog


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## P F Tinmore (Jun 2, 2013)

RoccoR said:


> P F Tinmore;  _et al,_
> 
> Wait!  May be you want to restate this point.
> 
> ...





> Wait! May be you want to restate this point.



I don't.

I am correct.


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## 50_RiaL (Jun 2, 2013)

. . . And Israel is expected to make peace with these thugs?


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## Hossfly (Jun 2, 2013)

50_RiaL said:


> . . . And Israel is expected to make peace with these thugs?


Plus releasing all the murderous terrorists in Israeli prisons. That's one of Abu Mazen's condition for peace talks.


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## Hossfly (Jun 2, 2013)

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> I think I shall be forever haunted by the story of one particular child killed who lived in an orphanage. His mother sent him there because she could not afford to take care of him. He was walking to or from school when he was killed by Israeli airstrikes unlawfully targeting municipal buildings. For this child, I could not even find a photo, I searched all over the internet for a photo, to no avail. His mother was interviewed, she said soon she was going to send another child to the orphanage. Heartbreaking stories of childrens lives needlessly cut short by an Occupiers unlawful targeting of civilians, which includes children.  Sherri


Don't you think there are others haunted by the deaths of children?  How do you think the parents of children felt when they saw the blood running out of their children as a result of car bombings by your friends in Pakistan?  Are you haunted by all the innocent children whose lives have been cut short in Syria?  Maybe the Drama Queen can tell us her feelings about these dead children.


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## Hossfly (Jun 2, 2013)

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> I identified 16 children Israel killed on Day 1 of Cast Lead and discussed their killings in a prior thread. They were all killed unlawfully. Most were walking to and from school. They were killed in unlawful targeted killings of civilian and civilian objects. DCI Palestine addresses each child killed in CL in quiet a bit of detail on their website. They investigated each fatality incident. They are an intl childrens human rights organization.  Operation Cast Lead: 352 children killed during Israeli offensive | Defence for Children International Palestine


Can you tell us which group is identifying the dead children who have been murdered by your friends all over the Muslim world, or don't they or you care about these children that it would be a waste of time to identify them?  Plus of course if they actually did take the time, the list would go on and on and on.


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## P F Tinmore (Jun 2, 2013)

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kjzv9Mp3CEE&feature=youtube_gdata_player



[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JUshhje-uO8]CodePink reporting on Gaza March 23, 2009 - Part 2 - YouTube[/ame]


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## RoccoR (Jun 2, 2013)

SherriMunnerlyn; _et al,_

Oh come now.  You are only telling half the story.



SherriMunnerlyn said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore;  _et al,_
> ...


*(COMMENT)*

Prior to the initiation of Operation Cast Lead, HAMAS was launching an average of 60 to 70 rockets into Israel each day; some 122-mm Grad-type Katyusha and some Qassam Rockets.  That is called provocation.

I stand by my analysis, that it was a consequence of of HoAP incitement.

This was clearly an Article 51 response.



			
				Article 51 Chapert VII said:
			
		

> Nothing in the present Charter shall impair the inherent right of individual or collective self-defence if an armed attack occurs against a Member of the United Nations, until the Security Council has taken measures necessary to maintain international peace and security.
> 
> *SOURCE:* Charter of the United Nations: Chapter VII: Action with Respect to Threats to the Peace, Breaches of the Peace and Acts of Agression



Most Respectfully,
R


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## SherriMunnerlyn (Jun 2, 2013)

RoccoR said:


> SherriMunnerlyn; _et al,_
> 
> Oh come now.  You are only telling half the story.
> 
> ...



Nothing justifies targeting of civilians and children.


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## P F Tinmore (Jun 2, 2013)

RoccoR said:


> SherriMunnerlyn; _et al,_
> 
> Oh come now.  You are only telling half the story.
> 
> ...





			
				 A/RES/46/51 Measures to Eliminate International Terrorism said:
			
		

> Reaffirming also the *inalienable right to self-determination and independence of all peoples under colonial and racist regimes and other forms of alien domination and foreign occupation, and upholding the legitimacy of their struggle,* in particular the struggle of national liberation movements, in accordance with the purposes and principles of the Charter and the Declaration on Principles of International Law concerning Friendly Relations and Cooperation among States in accordance with the Charter of the United Nations,
> 
> _*SOURCE:*_ A/RES/46/51. Measures to eliminate international terrorism



A blockade is an act of war. The Palestinians were defending themselves as international law allows.


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## MHunterB (Jun 2, 2013)

"Nothing justifies targeting of civilians and children."

That's exactly right:  no 'resistance to occupation' justifies the targeting of Israeli civilians and children - let alone the targeting of citizens of other nations! - by HAMAS and the PLO/PA

Just the way OBL's fan club targeted so many completely innocent civilians on 9/11- completely and irrevocably WRONG, no excuse.

Of course, since the whores for HAMAS/PLO/Pa/whatever keep telling the Big Lie of claiming Israel 'deliberately targets' civilians, they don't have an iota of credibility remaining.


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## Coyote (Jun 2, 2013)

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > SherriMunnerlyn; _et al,_
> ...



I agree.

What do you think when Hamas targets civilians and children?


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## Coyote (Jun 2, 2013)

MHunterB said:


> "Nothing justifies targeting of civilians and children."
> 
> That's exactly right:  no 'resistance to occupation' justifies the targeting of Israeli civilians and children - let alone the targeting of citizens of other nations! - by HAMAS and the PLO/PA
> 
> ...



Targeting civilian centers seems to me to be targeting civilians or, at best - not much caring that civilians get killed in the process.


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## P F Tinmore (Jun 2, 2013)

MHunterB said:


> "Nothing justifies targeting of civilians and children."
> 
> That's exactly right:  no 'resistance to occupation' justifies the targeting of Israeli civilians and children - let alone the targeting of citizens of other nations! - by HAMAS and the PLO/PA
> 
> ...



Even when the definition of protected persons is set out in this way, it may seem rather complicated. Nevertheless, disregarding points of detail, it will be seen that there are two main classes of protected person: (1) ' enemy nationals ' within the national territory of each of the Parties to the conflict and (2) ' the whole population ' of occupied territories *(excluding nationals of the Occupying Power)*.

</title> <link rel="stylesheet" type="text/css" href="/xsp/.ibmxspres/.mini/css/@Da&@Ib&2Tfxsp.css&2TfxspLTR.css.css"> <script type="text/javascript" src="/xsp/.ibmxspres/dojoroot-1.6.1/dojo/dojo.js" djConfig="locale: 'fr-ch'"></script> <script type=

International law excludes Israeli citizens from the "civilian" category.


----------



## RoccoR (Jun 2, 2013)

P F Tinmore, _et al,_

Ah, yes.  The "blockade."  One might ask, what purpose does it serve?  Is it a lawful purpose?  What is the intent and does it have in basis in customary law and history.

We need to examine the whole story.



P F Tinmore said:


> A/RES/46/51 Measures to Eliminate International Terrorism said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


*(REFERENCES)*



			
				Paragraph 4 said:
			
		

> (a)   To prevent the preparation and organization in their respective territories, for commission within or outside their territories, of terrorist and subversive acts directed against other States and their citizens;
> 
> _*SOURCE:*_ A/RES/46/51. Measures to eliminate international terrorism





			
				Programme of Action to Prevent said:
			
		

> 22. Resolve therefore to prevent, combat and eradicate the illicit trade in small arms and light weapons in all its aspects by:
> 
> (a) Strengthening or developing agreed norms and measures at the global, regional and national levels that would reinforce and further coordinate efforts to prevent, combat and eradicate the illicit trade in small arms and light weapons in all its aspects;
> 
> ...



*(COMMENT)*

The supplying of small arms and light weapons (SA/LW) to terrorist organizations such as Hamas and Hezbollah are prime to the target.  And since the general population supports these terrorist organizations (providing material support), there will be other materials that are blocked.



			
				Fox in the Hen House said:
			
		

> Iran will preside over the United Nations arms control forum this month, despite the fact that it is under U.N. sanctions for illicit nuclear activities and routinely supplies arms to the terrorist organization Hezbollah in violation of international law.
> ...   ...   ...
> &#8220;Iran is an international outlaw state that illegally supplies rockets to Syria, Hezbollah, and Hamas, aiding and abetting mass murder and terrorism. To make this rogue regime head of world arms control is simply an outrage. Abusers of international norms should not be the public face of the U.N.&#8221;
> 
> *SOURCE:* Iran to chair U.N. arms control forum | Washington Free Beacon



None of this is new.  It has been long known that the IRGC-QF (Quds Force) has been deeply involved in the covert and clandestine shipment of SA/LW and rocket to both Hamas and Hezbollah.



			
				The Hamas And Hezbollah House Of Horrors April 5 said:
			
		

> U.S. and Israeli intelligence have learned of an ongoing debate in the Iranian leadership. The more radical leaders, who control the Revolutionary Guard, and the al Quds force, want to equip Hamas (in Gaza) and Hezbollah (in southern Lebanon) with more lethal weapons, and goad Israel into another war. The Iranian radicals have been trying to get anti-aircraft and anti-tank missiles to Hamas, as these weapons can be used immediately against Israeli helicopters, F-16s and UAVs that regularly operate over Gaza, and the armored vehicles that come in with raids and patrol the security fence. *So far, none of these weapons have gotten through.*
> 
> _*SOURCE:*_ Counter-Terrorism: The Hamas And Hezbollah House Of Horrors



So far, such weapons haven't gotten through, but --- it requires vigilance.  Most recently, the Egyptians have taken steps to assist in the quarantine effort by blocking tunnels used for smuggling, including SA/LW and rockets.  The blockade is an essential part to the vigilance; remembering that Hamas is an HoAP element.

Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## Hossfly (Jun 2, 2013)

P F Tinmore said:


> SherriMunnerlyn said:
> 
> 
> > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kjzv9Mp3CEE&feature=youtube_gdata_player
> ...


Looks like Tinnie loves those Code Pink Ladies.  Maybe he can invite one of them out for dinner when he gets away from his magic computer that really isn't there.

Jewish Bubba: Anti-Israel: Code Pink Ladies


----------



## RoccoR (Jun 2, 2013)

P F Tinmore,  _et al,_

There is some truth to this.



P F Tinmore said:


> MHunterB said:
> 
> 
> > "Nothing justifies targeting of civilians and children."
> ...


*(COMMENT)*

It would be true to say, that the Israeli Settlers _(non-IDF)_ in the West Bank _(Occupied Territory)_ are in a "gray area."  But clearly they are non-combatants.

Israeli Citizens inside the sovereignty of the State of Israel are covered as protected persons.  There is no question of that, except in the minds of the HoAP.



			
				Section 4. Actions by Palestinian armed groups Paragraph 1950 said:
			
		

> In relation to the firing of rockets and mortars into southern Israel by Palestinian armed groups operating in the Gaza Strip, the Mission finds that the Palestinian armed groups fail to distinguish between military targets and the civilian population and civilian objects in southern Israel. The launching of rockets and mortars which cannot be aimed with sufficient precisions at military targets breaches the fundamental principle of distinction.  Where there is no intended military target and the rockets and mortars are launched into civilian areas, they constitute a deliberate attack against the civilian population. *These actions would constitute war crimes and may amount to crimes against humanity*.
> 
> _*SOURCE:*_ http://www2.ohchr.org/english/bodies/hrcouncil/docs/12session/A-HRC-12-48_ADVANCE2.pdf



If, what the Israelis did is a crime, then too, what the HoAP has done is so as well.  

Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## P F Tinmore (Jun 2, 2013)

RoccoR said:


> P F Tinmore, _et al,_
> 
> Ah, yes.  The "blockade."  One might ask, what purpose does it serve?  Is it a lawful purpose?  What is the intent and does it have in basis in customary law and history.
> 
> ...



That linked document is titled "Measures to eliminate international terrorism."

Hamas does not operate outside Palestine's borders and does not attack protected persons as defined by the Fourth Geneva Convention. They do, however, defend their country from occupation that they have the right to do.

Please explain how international terrorism fits into the picture.


----------



## MHunterB (Jun 2, 2013)

Coyote said:


> MHunterB said:
> 
> 
> > "Nothing justifies targeting of civilians and children."
> ...



Which explains HAMAS continually shooting at Sderot, exactly as the Syrians shelled Jewish towns INside Israel  for months on end.  

Don't forget, Coyote:  even a hospital or orphanage loses its 'civilian' status after its roof is used to launch missiles or shells, whether at civilians or at military.


----------



## RoccoR (Jun 2, 2013)

SherriMunnerlyn; _et al,_

Collateral damage describes casualties and damage suffered incidental to the intended target.



SherriMunnerlyn said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > SherriMunnerlyn; _et al,_
> ...


*(COMMENT)*

Hamas, and the general population that aids and abets Hamas, are just as responsible for the collateral damage and causalities to "civilians and children" as is the ordnance that falls on the legitimate Hamas targeted activity.  

The question becomes how responsible is a general public when it provides material support, political endorsement, and actively acts to cover and conceal efforts by Hamas to undermine the territorial integrity and security of the sovereign State of Israel?

Hamas are terrorist and insurgents engaged in activities that make them subject to attack at any moment.  HoAP (Hostile Arab/Palestinian) parents know this and should teach their children to run away from Hamas activities that, by mere proximity, may be hazardous, dangerous and deadly.  Just as Hamas should not operate in the vicinity of "civilians and children" to minimize collateral damage and casualties.  The HoAP does not hold any special status when they conduct operations that threaten Israeli sovereignty and security.  They become targetable, and anyone in proximity is in danger.

Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## MHunterB (Jun 2, 2013)

P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore, _et al,_
> ...



HAMAS are international terrorists.  The lying BS in bold is only vaguely 'true' if one disregards Israeli sovereignty entirely - which is something only the international terrorists and their whores do.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Jun 2, 2013)

MHunterB said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > RoccoR said:
> ...



What defines them as such?


----------



## RoccoR (Jun 3, 2013)

P F Tinmore,  _et al,_

Let us see if we can walk you through this.



P F Tinmore said:


> What defines them as such?


*(COMMENT)*

Israel is a member state of the UN; recognized by the General Assembly.



 II. Measures to prevent and combat terrorism said:


> We resolve to undertake the following measures to prevent and combat terrorism, in particular by denying terrorists access to the means to carry out their attacks, to their targets and to the desired impact of their attacks:
> 
> To refrain from organizing, instigating, facilitating, participating in, financing, encouraging or tolerating terrorist activities and to take appropriate practical measures to ensure that our respective territories are not used for terrorist installations or training camps, or for the preparation or organization of terrorist acts intended to be committed against other States or their citizens.​
> _*SOURCE:*_ Global Counter-Terrorism Strategy - UN Action to Counter Terrorism



The mere fact that Hamas, and its many supporters, encourage armed action against the sovereign State of Israel, is a crime in itself.  

Because the Gaza Strip is outside Israel, and the launching of rockets _(using it as an example)_ crosses an international boundary set by Treaty, recognized by the UN, makes it international.

*(NOTE)*

I know at this point you are going to say that Israel is inside Palestine.  We've had this argument before.  But Israel is a "state" and Palestine is not.

Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## SherriMunnerlyn (Jun 3, 2013)

P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > SherriMunnerlyn; _et al,_
> ...



The Blockade is also collective punishment and a war crime.


----------



## SherriMunnerlyn (Jun 3, 2013)

MHunterB said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > RoccoR said:
> ...



Israel occupies Gaza and the WB and East Jerusalem and the Occupied have a lawful right to resist Occupation.  Until IDF terrorists and war criminal illegal settlers leave, Palestinians have the right to resist their Occupation. This sovereignty argument is raised only by Zions whores and it has no merit as long as the Occupation continues


----------



## SherriMunnerlyn (Jun 3, 2013)

MHunterB said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > RoccoR said:
> ...



No, they are not international terrorists. But the Zionist government is, we see acts of terrorism by her,  like assassinations in Iran of Iranian scientists.


----------



## SherriMunnerlyn (Jun 3, 2013)

MHunterB said:


> "Nothing justifies targeting of civilians and children."
> 
> That's exactly right:  no 'resistance to occupation' justifies the targeting of Israeli civilians and children - let alone the targeting of citizens of other nations! - by HAMAS and the PLO/PA
> 
> ...


                                                                                                                                                               Please stop putting your  words into my mouth, words that always distort truth. As you know, what I was addressing was Israels deliberate unlawful targeting of civilians and civilian objects that have resulted in the deaths of 1519 children since 2000. We have reports by human rights groups and NGOs confirming the attacks on civilians are unlawful. Truth is always brought into the light, Zion's whores cannot keep it buried. I wish someone would come up with the alleged source that printed that cartoon. If it even ever existed and there really were words written under it,  words that appeared would probably have been "clean the world of Zionists."  We read the names of 1519 children Zionists killed on Remember These Children website  and it becomes perfectly clear what Zionism stands for, the Zionism Palestinians see is the murder of Palestinian nonJewish children. Sherri


----------



## SherriMunnerlyn (Jun 3, 2013)

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> MHunterB said:
> 
> 
> > "Nothing justifies targeting of civilians and children."
> ...



Remember These Children 2012 Memorial http://dci-palestine.org/content/fatalities-and-injuries http://www.dci-palestine.org/docume...-352-children-killed-during-israeli-offensive


----------



## Kondor3 (Jun 3, 2013)

P F Tinmore said:


> "..._International law excludes Israeli citizens from the 'civilian' category._"


So that Palestinian civilians are 'protected' and Israeli citizens are not 'protected'?

Really?

If true, then...

I can understand why the Israelis tell outsiders to go screw themselves, when citing International Law as part of their whining...

I can also understand why the United States does not pressure Israel in such matters...

And, of course, when all is said-and-done, when we look at the shrunken and shriveled collection of tiny pock-marks on the map representing what is left of Palestinian-controlled land in the region, we can see how effective reliance upon International Law has been for the Palestinians over the past 65 years and more... when they're not busy lobbing rockets at Israeli civilians or killing Israeli civilians with suicide vests and the like.

Charming naivete... rather like waiting for Sandy-Claws to come down the smoke-hole in the roof at the start of Ramadan with a gift-bag full of AK-47s and RPGs and ammo...


----------



## ForeverYoung436 (Jun 3, 2013)

Kondor3 said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > "..._International law excludes Israeli citizens from the 'civilian' category._"
> ...



There are nearly 3 million Arabs in the West Bank, and less than a half-million Israeli settlers.


----------



## SherriMunnerlyn (Jun 3, 2013)

I think more about the cartoon, and see that the popular nonviolent resistance movement and BDS are the proper methods to use and support to clean the world of this Zionism that is today committing egregious daily human rights abuses in Palestine. I think that cartoon could be effectively used by BDS. Now, I am off for a bit to share my ideas with some Palestinians. I would not be surprised if we later were to find that cartoon was used in a bigger context, very like the one I am visualizing it could be very effectively used in. I just realized the article in the OP alleges the words written under the cartoon were keep the world clean, not clean the world of Jews. The thread title is a lie. Sherri


----------



## Kondor3 (Jun 3, 2013)

ForeverYoung436 said:


> "..._There are nearly 3 million Arabs in the West Bank, and less than a half-million Israeli settlers._"


Doesn't matter a bit. In their setting, military power decides who rules and who lives where.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Jun 3, 2013)

Kondor3 said:


> ForeverYoung436 said:
> 
> 
> > "..._There are nearly 3 million Arabs in the West Bank, and less than a half-million Israeli settlers._"
> ...



Of course that is illegal, but as Israel says:

*We don't need no steenking law!*


----------



## RoccoR (Jun 3, 2013)

SherriMunnerlyn; P F Tinmore; _et al,_

You bolded the wrong part.  The "Declaration on Principles of International Law concerning Friendly Relations and Cooperation among States" (DPILFRCAS) main point is to "refrain in their international relations from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of any State."  Hamas and the People of the Gaza Strip do many things, but that is not one of them.   The DPILFRCAS is all about peaceful solutions, and not war, or terrorism.



SherriMunnerlyn said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > A/RES/46/51 Measures to Eliminate International Terrorism said:
> ...


*(COMMENT)*

One can, from a humanitarian point of view, consider the blockade as "collective punishment" where the idea is that the innocent are punished right along with the guilty.  Yes, that is --- in the adversarial form, a side to be argued.  But one could also argue, from the prosecutorial perspective, that the People of the Gaza Strip knowingly and actively support a terrorist state that organizes, instigates, facilitates, participates in, finances, encourages or tolerates the use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of the recognized State of Israel _(in the first count)_.  And further, the People of the Gaza Strip knowingly finance, encourage, and tolerates by allowing its territory, which it has placed at the disposal of another State (Iran), to be used by that other State (Iran) for perpetrating an act of aggression and terrorism against a third State (Israel). (Second Count)  The People of the Gaza Strip knowingly engage in the illicit procurement of small arms and light weapons (SA/LW) from a third party state currently under UN Sanctions _(Iran - known to support terrorist campaigns)_ for the purpose of engaging the sovereignty of Israel. (Third Count)

Collective Punishment is not always a "war crime."  It may be entirely appropriate to consider multiple conspirators under the same measure of justice.  The Gaza Strip is a territory that is entirely populated by criminals and terrorists, or those that either encourage or directly support the criminal activity and terrorist action of a known terrorist organization (Hamas).  The People of Gaza are the people behind a state which they encourage to sponsor terrorism.  

But the blockade is not intended to be punishment at all.  *The blockade is a crime prevention countermeasure to the impact of the criminal activity and terrorist action supported by the People of Gaza.*  The blockade can be lifted by changing the behaviors of the People of Gaza and their support for Hamas.

Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## Kondor3 (Jun 3, 2013)

P F Tinmore said:


> Kondor3 said:
> 
> 
> > ForeverYoung436 said:
> ...


*Given that the law (supposedly) protects Palestinian civilians while allowing Open Hunting Season on Israeli civilians...*

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VqomZQMZQCQ]We don't need no stinking badges! - YouTube[/ame]

By Jove, I think you're beginning to get the hang of this thing...


----------



## member (Jun 3, 2013)

P F Tinmore said:


> _*"...A blockade is an act of war.
> 
> The Palestinians were defending themselves*_
> 
> *as international law allows."*








*(as) "INTERNATIONAL LAW ALLOWS"*








..._hypocrisy_....the way I see it 

 -- *"INTERNATIONAL LAW"* also allows ....

*TERRORISTS. . .*





_*and...*_




*WARLORDS*





....and whackos 

 TO BE in charge of people (like ghadaffy [_was_] or amadinejiHAD [_is_] AND the President/warlord of syria who (as we speak) is committing "present day genocide" on his people (AND, has aspirations to CONTINUE ON AS...........ppppppRESIDENT OF THE SAME COUNTRY where he's killing all the people) - it's--_confounding_.  _yeah, IT IS_.  


i know, their (U.N.) hands are tied 

.....................ASSAD running AGAIN FOR PRESIDENT OF SYRIA.  they can't do anything about it.
They have "no control" over who is 'elected' by the people of a country.  i guess it's up to the "good" people of the country to get rid of him...




as of ...now, what's the consensus, i forgot: 

 "DOES THE U.N. _*"RECOGNIZE"*_ Ham_ass_ as a legitimate Government over the palestinian people or, are waffling on the subject....and see them as a palestinian terrorist group (who continually fires 'rockets' into israel ????) so which is it ?




​


----------



## MHunterB (Jun 3, 2013)

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> MHunterB said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



If 'PressTV' and other mullah-controlled propaganda rags were believable, there might be some merit in those allegations.  But, alas for the pseudo-pacifist haha-humanitarian fake, that's not the case.......

There's just as much reason to suppose some insane mullah had those 'scientists' killed as to blame Israel - perhaps more.  The maniacal mullahs sent 9 year olds into mine fields to clear them:  they've shown ZERO regard or consideration for their own populace time and again.  

Why wouldn't the mullahs do a little 'false flag' op of their own?  Especially after they've murdered unarmed demonstrators protesting election fraud?   No better way to distract the Iranian public than to claim Israel has 'attacked' them........


----------



## SherriMunnerlyn (Jun 3, 2013)

RoccoR said:


> SherriMunnerlyn; P F Tinmore; _et al,_
> 
> You bolded the wrong part.  The "Declaration on Principles of International Law concerning Friendly Relations and Cooperation among States" (DPILFRCAS) main point is to "refrain in their international relations from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of any State."  Hamas and the People of the Gaza Strip do many things, but that is not one of them.   The DPILFRCAS is all about peaceful solutions, and not war, or terrorism.
> 
> ...



I am not addressing what the Blockade is from a humanitarian standpoint. I am saying  it is an act of collective punishment under the law, international law,  unlawful and a war crime under The Fourth Geneva Convention. If intl law is not to be upheld with respect to Israel, then we might as well get rid of all if it. Lets just start WWIII right now and get it all over with, do away completely with the rule of law, end our existence now. Better that then our nation endlessly inflicting terrorism and occupations on the rest of our world and its inhabitants. Sherri


----------



## SherriMunnerlyn (Jun 3, 2013)

MHunterB said:


> SherriMunnerlyn said:
> 
> 
> > MHunterB said:
> ...



Everyone knows Israel was behind the killings, Zions's whores are not burying the truth about this. And its not just terrorism in Iran, I was just reading about Palestinians kidnapped in Europe by Israel,  addressed by human rights groups. Israel is a terrorist state. Zions whores cannot bury the Truth about this.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Jun 3, 2013)

RoccoR said:


> SherriMunnerlyn; P F Tinmore; _et al,_
> 
> You bolded the wrong part.  The "Declaration on Principles of International Law concerning Friendly Relations and Cooperation among States" (DPILFRCAS) main point is to "refrain in their international relations from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of any State."  Hamas and the People of the Gaza Strip do many things, but that is not one of them.   The DPILFRCAS is all about peaceful solutions, and not war, or terrorism.
> 
> ...



You crack me up with that territorial integrity of Israel thing. Israel sits inside Palestine with no land or borders of its own.

Hamas are not terrorists in Palestine where they were elected. That is just a "western" name calling thing.


----------



## member (Jun 3, 2013)

P F Tinmore said:


> _*"Hamas are not terrorists in Palestine where they were elected. That is just a "western" name calling thing."*_





 *=*_ yeah, that's what it is,  they "ain't" terrorists,  just a made-up...* "name calling thingy, by westerners."*_ 





​


----------



## ForeverYoung436 (Jun 3, 2013)

P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > SherriMunnerlyn; P F Tinmore; _et al,_
> ...



Israel is a member-state of the United Nations, and has peace treaties with Egypt and Jordan.  On another note, if Hamas would take over all or part of "Palestine", how do you know they wouldn't set up yet another Muslim theocracy, and shoot themselves in the foot, like what just happened in Egypt, Libya, Yemen and other Arab countries in the Arab Spring movement?  Syria's civil war has just spilled over into Lebanon, and 80,000 ppl have just been slaughtered over there, and the only time you ppl woke up over that, is when 40 murderous Syrian soldiers were taken out by Israel.  BTW, the ppl in Israel are very productive.  They are doctors, teachers, and architects, and don't spend their whole lives on a message board.


----------



## Hossfly (Jun 3, 2013)

P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > SherriMunnerlyn; P F Tinmore; _et al,_
> ...


What Tinmore calls borders are demarcation lines. This map shows how the world sees Israel with the unresolved borders (demarcation lines) of Palestine inside Israel. The outer borders of Israel aren't going to change but the demarcation lines could grow (or shrink), depending on Palestines actions.


Drawing the lines: Obama, Israel, the Palestinians, 1967 and beyond - World - CBC News


----------



## SherriMunnerlyn (Jun 3, 2013)

Keep the World Clean

This is what is reported as wriiten under the cartoon.

The people of Gaza are doing that.

They keep cleaning up Zionist messes in Gaza.

Photos from Gaza, taken by Palestinian Photographer Hassan Rabie





































https://www.facebook.com/#!/pages/Photography-Hassan-Rabie/143866729136918?directed_target_id=0


----------



## SherriMunnerlyn (Jun 3, 2013)

ForeverYoung436 said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > RoccoR said:
> ...



I guess the poster would prefer Palestine was like the US and developed nuclear weapons they dropped on two cities in Japan, like Nagasaki and Hiroshima. 

Well, what I say to this poster is a people having a nation does not require that nation become what he or any other person wants them to become. It is not for me or him to dictate what nations make of themselves. 

Sherri


----------



## member (Jun 3, 2013)

reabhloideach said:


> _*"...later in the article...*_*"Carroll began joking about the widespread concern about Shariah, the religious code that governs Muslim civil and political life.......'We tried to downplay Shariah, because we didnt want to give the other side any excitement for being here,' he said."*
> 
> 
> *When you even say the word Shariah, people get nervous. We are not advocating for Shariah. 'We are not trying to make Shariah the law of the land,' he said.  Carroll claimed Muslims only want the 'right to practice our faith.'"*




*"But he also said, 'If you understand Shariah,* 

 

 -- *'the foundation of our faith ......'*


_*...and...*_




*". . . how we treat our neighbor..."*






*"how we treat our parents"*









*"how we participate* 

 *in society...*





















































​






 *"...all of that is part of Shariah.*


----------



## SherriMunnerlyn (Jun 3, 2013)

And Shariah has nothing to do with Israel and Palestine. Nor do your Photos.


----------



## Kondor3 (Jun 3, 2013)

Yeah, but the more gruesome ones are a timely reminder of what we're dealing with, in talking about Hamas and Hezbollah, and what their declared hopes for, for governing Palestine, in the unlikely event that they ever get the chance.


----------



## Hossfly (Jun 3, 2013)

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> And Shariah has nothing to do with Israel and Palestine. Nor do your Photos.


Gaza: Hamas Proposes Penal Code Forcing Sharia Law on All Ga... - Care2 News Network


Hamas Officials Debate When to Impose Islamic Law | Washington Free Beacon


----------



## SherriMunnerlyn (Jun 3, 2013)

No interest in Zionist Propaganda. Reality is Shariah is the law nowhere in Palestine.


----------



## Hossfly (Jun 3, 2013)

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> No interest in Zionist Propaganda. Reality is Shariah is the law nowhere in Palestine.


Oh yeah? Ask Tinmore what he thinks, Dumkoph.


----------



## Book of Jeremiah (Jun 3, 2013)

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> And Shariah has nothing to do with Israel and Palestine. Nor do your Photos.



I must have missed a news report somewhere.  Didn't Hamas just install Sharia law in Gaza, Sherri?  - Jeri


----------



## Hossfly (Jun 3, 2013)

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> ForeverYoung436 said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...


Perhaps you can have your Palestinians friends tell the King of Jordan that his family didn't deserve to get 78 percent of the Mandate and that 78 percent should have been used for a country for the Palestinians (even though there never was a country called Palestine in history).  After all, look at the huge amount of Palestinians living there now.


----------



## Hossfly (Jun 3, 2013)

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> No interest in Zionist Propaganda. Reality is Shariah is the law nowhere in Palestine.


Do you actually think that most people are interested in your propaganda?  I wonder if anyone remembers the name of the C.A.I.R. leader who said that Islam isn't here in America to follow the Constitution, but Sharia Law.  Maybe Frau Sherri can find out what his name is.


----------



## RoccoR (Jun 3, 2013)

SherriMunnerlyn; _et al,_

We have to agree to disagree.



SherriMunnerlyn said:


> The Blockade is also collective punishment and a war crime.


*(COMMENT)*

It depends on the intent and application.  Blockades and sanctions are a form of active punitive pressure to induce or force compliance.   



SherriMunnerlyn said:


> I am not addressing what the Blockade is from a humanitarian standpoint. I am saying  it is an act of collective punishment under the law, international law,  unlawful and a war crime under The Fourth Geneva Convention.


*(COMMENT)*

The GCIV is Humanitarian Law by treaty.  It is not in the same category as International Criminal Law like the Rome Statues; under the old broader category of Law of Land Warfare.



			
				ICRC Home GENEVA CONVENTIONS said:
			
		

> The Geneva Conventions and their Additional Protocols are at the *core of international humanitarian law*, the body of international law that regulates the conduct of armed conflict and seeks to limit its effects.
> 
> _*SOURCE:*_ The Geneva Conventions of 1949 and their Additional Protocols



Most laws talk about what is proscribed or prohibited.  Humanitarian Law is in a different tongue and voice; speaking about requirements and practices.  The Protocols _(diplomatic formality, precedence, and etiquette)_ include provisions to protect civilians from the effects of hostilities; the modern day code of chivalry _(courtesy, generosity, valor, and dexterity in arms)_.

While a vast majority of the original Codes of Chivalry come from the ancient Arab World (pre-Islamic), today --- it is nothing that the Hostile Arab/Palestinian (HoAP) is familiar with in regards to the tactics and strategies they apply.  Among the code's central beliefs are:


To protect the weak and defenceless

To give succour to widows and orphans

To respect the honour of women

To refrain from the wanton giving of offence

To fight for the welfare of all

To eschew unfairness, meanness and deceit

At all times to speak the truth

These are concepts that have been long lost to the HoAP.  And, I must say in fairness, the duration of the Israel-HoAP struggle has frayed the Israeli application of chivalry as well.  But certainly not to the same degree.



SherriMunnerlyn said:


> If intl law is not to be upheld with respect to Israel, then we might as well get rid of all if it. Lets just start WWIII right now and get it all over with, do away completely with the rule of law, end our existence now. Better that then our nation endlessly inflicting terrorism and occupations on the rest of our world and its inhabitants.


*(COMMENT)*

Neither side respects "International Law;" but for the HoAP to claim that the Israeli is the principle violator is the "pot calling the kettle - black."

The HoAP cannot selectively splice International Law together and claim they have some special right to pursue aggressive behaviors, applied force and hostile action because the UN General Assembly offered the Israeli an opportunity to establish independence.

All these laws you cite were written by the same body that admitted Israel to the UN as a member nation.  And the subsequent wars and insurgencies that occurred, are all based on the premise that the rights and recognition of the State of Israel are somehow invalid and unfair.  It was the HoAP that opened up the hostile actions that bring us to the discussion today.

The basic law says _(layman's terms) _that no party can aggressively challenge by use of force the sovereign recognition the international community has granted.  For more than six decades, the HoAP has been trying to use force to overturn the recognition of Israel, instead of approaching it through peaceful means of negotiation and settlement.

The combative nature of the Israeli-Palestinian dispute is the making of the HoAP who objected to the UN Recognition of Israel, and challenged it in open warfare and now through terrorism and insurgency.  If there is a party to the conflict that we can call the "first violator" of international law, it is the HoAP _(including the Arab League)_ and the third party associates that have recently begun to interfere _(ex Iran)_.

It is a bit disingenuous of you or the HoAP to suggest that it is Israel that is not adhering to International Law.  Now, am I saying that Israel has never violated International Law?  No!  But the circumstance that lead to today's occupation are clearly driven by HoAP _(including the Arab League)_ and the third party associates that have recently begun to interfere _(ex Iran)_.



P F Tinmore said:


> You crack me up with that territorial integrity of Israel thing. Israel sits inside Palestine with no land or borders of its own.
> 
> Hamas are not terrorists in Palestine where they were elected. That is just a "western" name calling thing.


*(COMMENT)*

Yeah, sometimes I (as well) have to laugh at myself.

There are no borders to Palestine (not the Mandate).  The borders you are trying to refer to are the artificial lines made-up by the Sykes-Picot Agreement and under the authority to the 1920 Treaty of Sevres _("within such boundaries as may be determined by the Principal Allied Powers")_.  All this nonsense about Israel being inside Palestine is ridiculous.   



			
				Peel: The Royal Commission said:
			
		

> Manifestly, the Commission wrote, the problem cannot be solved by giving either the Arabs or the Jews all they want. The answer to the question which of them in the end will govern Palestine? must surely be Neither.
> 
> *SOURCE:* A/AC.14/8 of 2 October 1947
> 
> ...



It is clear that the "first violator" of the concept that they (HoAP) refrain in their international relations from the use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of any State (Israel).

In the US, as well as most western countries, has something akin to the Felony Murder Rule (FMR).  Normally, murder requires an intent to cause a death; but in the FMR, only requires the intent to commit the felony.  During the course of of over six decades, intended or not --- the HoAP is responsible for the death, destruction and occupation that resulted in the wars and insurgencies they (HoAP) induced in the dispute; regardless of what they pursue today.  The HoAP was not satisfied with the outcomes and went straight to war as a solution; totally ignoring the concept of law that they pursue peaceful means of resolution and settlement.  The borders they recognize as Palestine are not applicable and not theirs to decide.  The use of force to impose HoAP will upon the UN and Israel is and has been unlawful.  The words that they HoAP so often quote come from the same body as recognized the State of Israel.

Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## SherriMunnerlyn (Jun 3, 2013)

Jeremiah said:


> SherriMunnerlyn said:
> 
> 
> > And Shariah has nothing to do with Israel and Palestine. Nor do your Photos.
> ...



No.They did not, what is missing is any news report that happened. And, if they chose that system of law, so what?


----------



## SherriMunnerlyn (Jun 3, 2013)

The Palestinian Information Center Their website


----------



## RoccoR (Jun 3, 2013)

SherriMunnerlyn;  _et al,_

Now this is an interesting scenario.



SherriMunnerlyn said:


> I guess the poster would prefer Palestine was like the US and developed nuclear weapons they dropped on two cities in Japan, like Nagasaki and Hiroshima.


*(COMMENT)*

The very idea that the International Community would tolerate Hamas, or Fatah, developing a WMD would ridiculous as well.  

_*"Ceterum censeo Paestinem esse delendam" *_

No one want to light the Middle East or Persian Gulf on fire.  But if the fire starts, it will (most likely) be from the arsonist within, and the Arab/Middle Easterner that suffers the most.



SherriMunnerlyn said:


> , what I say to this poster is a people having a nation does not require that nation become what he or any other person wants them to become. It is not for me or him to dictate what nations make of themselves.


*(COMMENT)*

The Allied Powers don't care if the Middle East nations and cultures want to stay in the 6th Century of un-enlightenment.  Just as long as they don't pose a threat to anyone and don't become a nuisance.  They can stone all the women they want, chop all the hands off they want, cut all the throats they want, destroy every monument of historical interest they want.  I don't care; we don't care.  As long as they play in their back yard and don't create a regional or international threat.

Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## RoccoR (Jun 3, 2013)

member,  _et al,_

BTW, I really wanted to say thanks for this photo.



member said:


>


*(COMMENT)*

We had one a bit similar to this, but with a tiny bit more T&A _(Toes and Ankles)_ on our door at my office in Yemen.  

Sincerely,
R


----------



## SherriMunnerlyn (Jun 3, 2013)

RoccoR said:


> SherriMunnerlyn;  _et al,_
> 
> Now this is an interesting scenario.
> 
> ...



I certainly was not arguing I wanted to see Palestine try to emulate the US in her production and use of nuclear weapons.


----------



## skye (Jun 3, 2013)

RoccoR said:


> member,  _et al,_
> 
> BTW, I really wanted to say thanks for this photo.
> 
> ...




 ..... proof that Sharia is going global!


----------



## SherriMunnerlyn (Jun 3, 2013)

Better Shariah then killing a million or more  people with nuclear weapons or sanctions or wars that are acts of agression.


----------



## MHunterB (Jun 3, 2013)

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> Better Shariah then killing a million or more  people with nuclear weapons or sanctions or wars that are acts of agression.



And yet you're in favor of illegal 'sanctions' against a nation which is one of America's allies......


----------



## Connery (Jun 3, 2013)

Jeremiah said:


> SherriMunnerlyn said:
> 
> 
> > And Shariah has nothing to do with Israel and Palestine. Nor do your Photos.
> ...



It appears that is what happening.


"Gaza City, occupied Palestinian territories - Beginning this September, girls and boys above the age of nine in the Gaza Strip will be segregated in school under a new law passed by Hamas, which governs the coastal Palestinian enclave. The new decision is one of many polarising measures that Hamas has recently taken. Earlier this year, it launched a "Virtue Campaign" aiming to spread Islamic Sharia traditions in Gaza by fighting against "Western" dress and behaviour.

In March, Hamas banned women and girls from participating in Gaza's UNRWA-organised marathon, causing the UN agency to cancel the event in protest. Other Hamas bans prohibit women from smoking water pipes in public, riding on the back of motorcycles, and having male stylists do their hair. "

Hamas segregates Gaza schools by gender - Features - Al Jazeera English


----------



## SherriMunnerlyn (Jun 3, 2013)

Shariah law generally refers to religious laws under the jurisdiction of religious courts and we generally see such laws applying to marriage and divorce and inheritance, in nations where it applies, like Malaysia which has Shariah law for Muslims only, which applies to certain areas, like marriages and divorces of Muslims.   This is from an article addressing Shariah law:  "Dual Legal System.*Many majority Muslim countries have a dual system in which the government is secular but Muslims can choose to bring familial and financial disputes to sharia courts. The exact jurisdiction of these courts varies from country to country, but usually includes marriage, divorce, inheritance, and guardianship. Examples can be seen in Nigeria and Kenya, which have sharia*courts that rule on family law for Muslims. A variation exists in Tanzania, where civil courts apply sharia or secular law according to the religious backgrounds of the defendants. Several countries, including Lebanon and Indonesia, have mixed jurisdiction courts based on residual colonial legal systems and supplemented with sharia."  Islam: Governing Under Sharia - Council on Foreign Relations   An example, in Iran if a man kills a woman in some tyle of domestic dispute, the family of the man can pay blood money to the family of the wife to resolve the dispute. The value of the life of a woman is worth less than the value of the life of a man. Everyone may have heard of the man who threw acid in the eyes of a woman who rebuffed his advances. Under the law, they were going to blind him with acid,  under Shariah law. At the last minute, she asked that the punishment not be carried out. I think she got some money settlement from his family and wrote a book.


----------



## SherriMunnerlyn (Jun 3, 2013)

MHunterB said:


> SherriMunnerlyn said:
> 
> 
> > Better Shariah then killing a million or more  people with nuclear weapons or sanctions or wars that are acts of agression.
> ...



What in the world are you talking about?


----------



## RoccoR (Jun 3, 2013)

SherriMunnerlyn;  _et al,_

I don't think that many people in the West would agree.



SherriMunnerlyn said:


> Better Shariah then killing a million or more  people with nuclear weapons or sanctions or wars that are acts of agression.


*(COMMENT)*

Most countries under Islamic Leadership are very restrictive.

Here, in America, the watch phrases are: _"Forbid it, Almighty God! I know not what course others may take; but as for me, give me liberty or give me death!"_ (Patrick Henry);  or in other words:  _"God grants liberty only to those who love it, and are always ready to guard and defend it"_ (Daniel Webster).

Most Respectfully,
R

Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## SherriMunnerlyn (Jun 3, 2013)

RoccoR said:


> SherriMunnerlyn;  _et al,_
> 
> I don't think that many people in the West would agree.
> 
> ...



I think most do not care how many million people we kill in other lands.


----------



## skye (Jun 3, 2013)

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > SherriMunnerlyn;  _et al,_
> ...



You think wrong, I care.


----------



## Connery (Jun 3, 2013)

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> Shariah law generally refers to religious laws under the jurisdiction of religious courts and we generally see such laws applying to marriage and divorce and inheritance, in nations where it applies, like Malaysia which has Shariah law for Muslims only, which applies to certain areas, like marriages and divorces of Muslims.   This is from an article addressing Shariah law:  "Dual Legal System.*Many majority Muslim countries have a dual system in which the government is secular but Muslims can choose to bring familial and financial disputes to sharia courts. The exact jurisdiction of these courts varies from country to country, but usually includes marriage, divorce, inheritance, and guardianship. Examples can be seen in Nigeria and Kenya, which have sharia*courts that rule on family law for Muslims. A variation exists in Tanzania, where civil courts apply sharia or secular law according to the religious backgrounds of the defendants. Several countries, including Lebanon and Indonesia, have mixed jurisdiction courts based on residual colonial legal systems and supplemented with sharia."  Islam: Governing Under Sharia - Council on Foreign Relations   An example, in Iran if a man kills a woman in some tyle of domestic dispute, the family of the man can pay blood money to the family of the wife to resolve the dispute. The value of the life of a woman is worth less than the value of the life of a man. Everyone may have heard of the man who threw acid in the eyes of a woman who rebuffed his advances. Under the law, they were going to blind him with acid,  under Shariah law. At the last minute, she asked that the punishment not be carried out. I think she got some money settlement from his family and wrote a book.



There is more sherri there is always more, sharia enters into every facet of a person's life.

For example, "...in 2004 the European Court of Human Rights "found that sharia was incompatible with the fundamental principles of democracy&#8230; It considered that &#8220;sharia, which faithfully reflects the dogmas and divine rules laid down by religion, is stable and invariable. Principles such as pluralism in the political sphere or the constant evolution of public freedoms have no place in it. According to the Court, it was difficult to declare one&#8217;s respect for democracy and human rights while at the same time supporting a regime based on sharia, which clearly diverged from Convention values, particularly with regard to its criminal law and criminal procedure, its rules on the legal status of women and the way it intervened in all spheres of private and public life in accordance with religious precepts.&#8221;
http://www.iilj.org/courses/documents/refahpartisivturkey.pdf


----------



## Hossfly (Jun 3, 2013)

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> Better Shariah then killing a million or more  people with nuclear weapons or sanctions or wars that are acts of agression.


Frau Sherri conveniently omits the fact that her friends have nuclear weapons, and no one would be surprised if they used them on the Infidels (such as those in Pakistan wanting to kill the Hindus in India).  Naturally Frau Sherri is waiting for her Iranian friends to go nuclear so that they can attempt to destroy Israel.  And, let's face it, did Frau Sherri's friends didn't even need nuclear weapons to murder 2,000,000 Christians in the Sudan, millions of Christians in Nigeria, and 3,000,000 people (mainly Hindus) in Bangladesh


----------



## member (Jun 3, 2013)

RoccoR said:


> _"member, et al, *"BTW, I really wanted to say thanks for this photo..."*_





member said:


>




_*"...We had one a bit similar to this, but with a tiny bit more T&A*_ _(Toes and Ankles)_ 

 _*
on our door at my office in Yemen. 



Sincerely, R"*_


----------



## Hossfly (Jun 3, 2013)

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> Shariah law generally refers to religious laws under the jurisdiction of religious courts and we generally see such laws applying to marriage and divorce and inheritance, in nations where it applies, like Malaysia which has Shariah law for Muslims only, which applies to certain areas, like marriages and divorces of Muslims.   This is from an article addressing Shariah law:  "Dual Legal System.*Many majority Muslim countries have a dual system in which the government is secular but Muslims can choose to bring familial and financial disputes to sharia courts. The exact jurisdiction of these courts varies from country to country, but usually includes marriage, divorce, inheritance, and guardianship. Examples can be seen in Nigeria and Kenya, which have sharia*courts that rule on family law for Muslims. A variation exists in Tanzania, where civil courts apply sharia or secular law according to the religious backgrounds of the defendants. Several countries, including Lebanon and Indonesia, have mixed jurisdiction courts based on residual colonial legal systems and supplemented with sharia."  Islam: Governing Under Sharia - Council on Foreign Relations   An example, in Iran if a man kills a woman in some tyle of domestic dispute, the family of the man can pay blood money to the family of the wife to resolve the dispute. The value of the life of a woman is worth less than the value of the life of a man. Everyone may have heard of the man who threw acid in the eyes of a woman who rebuffed his advances. Under the law, they were going to blind him with acid,  under Shariah law. At the last minute, she asked that the punishment not be carried out. I think she got some money settlement from his family and wrote a book.


Perhaps you can pull up the story for us, Frau Sherri.  While you are at it, you can pull up some stories about Muslim men killing the women who refuse their advances and/or refuse to marry them.  Meanwhile, how about you travelling to Afghanistan and telling the Taliban who are such devout Muslims that they shouldn't be throwing acid in schoolgirls' faces.


----------



## SherriMunnerlyn (Jun 4, 2013)

Connery said:


> SherriMunnerlyn said:
> 
> 
> > Shariah law generally refers to religious laws under the jurisdiction of religious courts and we generally see such laws applying to marriage and divorce and inheritance, in nations where it applies, like Malaysia which has Shariah law for Muslims only, which applies to certain areas, like marriages and divorces of Muslims.   This is from an article addressing Shariah law:  "Dual Legal System.*Many majority Muslim countries have a dual system in which the government is secular but Muslims can choose to bring familial and financial disputes to sharia courts. The exact jurisdiction of these courts varies from country to country, but usually includes marriage, divorce, inheritance, and guardianship. Examples can be seen in Nigeria and Kenya, which have sharia*courts that rule on family law for Muslims. A variation exists in Tanzania, where civil courts apply sharia or secular law according to the religious backgrounds of the defendants. Several countries, including Lebanon and Indonesia, have mixed jurisdiction courts based on residual colonial legal systems and supplemented with sharia."  Islam: Governing Under Sharia - Council on Foreign Relations   An example, in Iran if a man kills a woman in some tyle of domestic dispute, the family of the man can pay blood money to the family of the wife to resolve the dispute. The value of the life of a woman is worth less than the value of the life of a man. Everyone may have heard of the man who threw acid in the eyes of a woman who rebuffed his advances. Under the law, they were going to blind him with acid,  under Shariah law. At the last minute, she asked that the punishment not be carried out. I think she got some money settlement from his family and wrote a book.
> ...



But nothing in that defines Shariah Law.


----------



## Connery (Jun 4, 2013)

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> Connery said:
> 
> 
> > SherriMunnerlyn said:
> ...



It is a fair and accurate representation of what sharia law stands for and how it encompasses every facet of a Muslim's life not just some aspects as you suggested. Indeed,  "Within Muslim discourse, sharia designates the rules and regulations governing the lives of Muslims"(see Calder, N. "Shar&#299;a." Encyclopaedia of Islam)


----------



## sealadaigh (Jun 4, 2013)

Connery said:


> SherriMunnerlyn said:
> 
> 
> > Connery said:
> ...



so? the same could be said about most religious laws...that they are "incompatable with the fundamental principles of democracy"... at some time point they served a purpose and still do in some societies. 

i myself believe in a total seperation of church and state but i also believe that if broad and general statements are to be made, they must be made broadly and generally throughout and not focus on one religion..

personally, in america, i find evangelical christians more threatening to democracy in the practise of their religious beliefs than muslims are in the practice of theirs theirs.

your pdf link denies me access so the context of your excerpt is unclear.

i think a lot of people who focus specifically on islamic dogma to the exclusion of other dogmas are guilty of fear mongering unnecessarily.


----------



## SherriMunnerlyn (Jun 4, 2013)

Well, I think those Palestinians in Gaza, students or Hamas who created that cartoon,, it remains a bit unclear who they are, are doing a fantastic job of keeping the world clean. 

I think whoever created that cartoon should be given an award for their creativity and positive artistic expression, addressing  how they are coping with all the Zionist attempts to turn Gaza into rubbish. 

They just keep on picking up the rubbish.

Sherri


----------



## Connery (Jun 4, 2013)

reabhloideach said:


> Connery said:
> 
> 
> > SherriMunnerlyn said:
> ...



I agree, which is why secular law with a prohibition of religious and foreign law, for that matter works best.  There are many discussions regarding America and their laws in relation to Islamic and  other religious laws in the proper forum. To discuss that in this thread would be inappropriate.

Further the link has been fixed. Enjoy the case.


----------



## SherriMunnerlyn (Jun 4, 2013)

Lipush said:


> Saigon said:
> 
> 
> > High_Gravity said:
> ...



They are too busy trying to survive ethnic cleansing efforts of Zionists, trying to stay alive is what they are spending their time doing, there is no time  to be on a discussion board saying anything here to Zionists. You Zionists are hurting and torturing their children at this very moment, presently unlawfully detaining over 200 Palestinian children. Sherri


----------



## RoccoR (Jun 4, 2013)

SherriMunnerlyn, Connery,  _et al,_

Definitions and descriptions are successive approximations of the impact; but, are no substitute for real observations.



Connery said:


> SherriMunnerlyn said:
> 
> 
> > Shariah law generally refers to religious laws under the jurisdiction of religious courts and we generally see such laws applying to marriage and divorce and inheritance, in nations where it applies, like Malaysia which has Shariah law for Muslims only, which applies to certain areas, like marriages and divorces of Muslims.   ....
> ...


*(COMMENT)*

One only has to look at the cultures and civilizations that embrace Islam and/or Sharia Law to rate them according to the freedoms they have, the advancement the culture makes, and the contributions they make in order to determine if that is what they want.

One of the problems with Islamic/Muslim Lands and Sharia law is that the shift tends to radicalize the population; and there is no turning back.  The top 10 most prosperous Islamic/Muslim countries in the world (by GDP) are:

Qatar	GDP  =  $173,320
Brunei	GDP  =  $16,360
Kuwait	GDP  =  $160,916
UAE     GDP  =  $338,690
Bahrain	GDP  =  $25,825
Oman	GDP  =  $72,680
Iran     GDP  =  $521,835
Saudi Arabia	GDP  =  $597,086
Turkey	GDP  =  $774,983
Malaysia	GDP  =  $287,934
Then subtract those that are artificially held high because they are energy export nations.

Brunei	GDP  =  $16,360
Turkey	GDP  =  $774,983
Malaysia	GDP  =  $287,934
Libya	GDP  =  $31,373
Lebanon	GDP  =  $39,039
Azerbaijan	GDP  =  $63,404
Tunisia	GDP  =  $46,332
Albania	GDP  =  $13,000
Algeria	GDP  =  $198,735
Egypt	GDP  =  $231,222
Turkmenistan  GDP  =  $25,742	
Jordan	GDP  =  $28,840
Maldives GDP  =  $2,050
Syria  GDP  =  $64,273	

Now look at the top nations that are not using energy resources as a crutch to the economy.

	 US   	GDP  =  $14,991,300
	 China	GDP  =  $7,203,784
	 Japan	GDP  =  $5,870,357
	 Germany	GDP  =  $3,604,061
	 France	GDP  =  $2,775,518
	 Brazil	GDP  =  $2,476,651
	 UK   	GDP  =  $2,429,184
	 Italy   	GDP  =  $2,195,937
	 India	GDP  =  $1,897,608
	 Russia	GDP  =  $1,857,770
	 Canada	GDP  =  $1,736,869
	 Australia	GDP  =  $1,515,468

You will notice that these are (generally) younger cultures and nations (excluding China, Brazil and Russia), and none the G8/G20 nations are Islamic/Muslim.  

Put another way:  Examine the chart on page *GDP Per Captia Ranking: Middle East and North Africa*.  Look at where Israel ranks in comparison to all the other Islamic/Muslim states _(this is a variation of the IQ Test Question: Which of these does not belong with the rest?  Hint:  It is not Muslim or Islamic!)_.  The only countries that out-rank them are Qatar, UAE, Kuwait, and Bahrain; and they are all Kingdoms.

Decide where you want to be and what kind of culture you want to have.

Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## Connery (Jun 4, 2013)

RoccoR said:


> SherriMunnerlyn, Connery,  _et al,_
> 
> Definitions and descriptions are successive approximations of the impact; but, are no substitute for real observations.
> 
> ...



A very interesting way to view this situation.


----------



## SherriMunnerlyn (Jun 4, 2013)

RoccoR said:


> SherriMunnerlyn, Connery,  _et al,_
> 
> Definitions and descriptions are successive approximations of the impact; but, are no substitute for real observations.
> 
> ...



You can spend every day the rest of your life judging other nations and rating them as inferior by standards you choose, but I see such an undertaking as rather pointless. The way I look at it, all governments have their problems and it should be up to individual peoples to choose their own governments. If people in the ME want Shariah law, they should have the right to have Shariah law. Sherri


----------



## SherriMunnerlyn (Jun 4, 2013)

Since this is supposed to be a thread about Gaza students, I thought I would bring up something I noticed  happening with Gaza students. They are shunning the West and its influences. I was reading about a student who went on a trip to Malaysia and she turned down a free trip to the US. She rejects our culture, she rejects our opportunities, she rejects our affluence. Sherri


----------



## member (Jun 4, 2013)

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> _*"Better Shariah then killing a million or more  people with nuclear weapons or sanctions or wars that are acts of aGgression."*_






skye said:


>




*"Better Shariah....................."*



*"THAN*" *................."killing a million or more people with nuclear weapons or sanctions or wars that are acts of agression."*




 - it just hit me like a ton of bricks.  she's a fake.  she's no "_Christian_."  _*"BETTER SHARIA"*_ - yeah right.  she's pretending she's _*"Christian."*_  ...and what she just said...it doesn't make sense  - even TO ME ?_!_?



_Shariah/killing people with nuclear weapons_sounds like iran._eh_, they're *ALL* the same........................_sharia swillin' swine_..........


----------



## RoccoR (Jun 4, 2013)

SherriMunnerlyn, _et al,_

I agree in part.



SherriMunnerlyn said:


> You can spend every day the rest of your life judging other nations and rating them as inferior by standards you choose, but I see such an undertaking as rather pointless. The way I look at it, all governments have their problems and it should be up to individual peoples to choose their own governments. If people in the ME want Shariah law, they should have the right to have Shariah law. Sherri


*(COMMENT)*

Yes, there are many ways to assess the pro's and con's of any nation and its culture.  But the more a culture is prosperous, the more options one has to choose from.  The less restrictive a culture, the more one can exercise their opportunities to live in the way they want to live.  The same is not true for the restrictive cultures of the Islamic/Muslim world.


THAT IS WHY YOU NEED TO DECIDE:  RoccoR said:


> Decide where you want to be and what kind of culture you want to have.



You can build a Mosque, a Temple, a Cathedral, a Shrine, or Conclave for any religion you choose in the US; without fear or repercussions.  In most cases, the governments give special dispensation to place of religious worship.  And it is (very much) frowned upon in the US to challenge or discriminate against a religious belief, its culture or the people that follow that belief.  We take a very dim view on intolerance _(although there are cases of it from time to time)_.  But in the Islamic/Muslim world, the same cannot be said.

We may not agree with the politics or religious belief of every given culture.  But in the US, there is a responsibility of citizenship to support and defend The Constitutional Right of everyone to worship as they please, believe as the please, and to pursue their dreams as they please _(so long as it doesn't pose a threat to public safety or interfere with the rights of others)_.  Many of us has sworn an oath to that effect.



SherriMunnerlyn said:


> Since this is supposed to be a thread about Gaza students, I thought I would bring up something I noticed  happening with Gaza students. They are shunning the West and its influences. I was reading about a student who went on a trip to Malaysia and she turned down a free trip to the US. She rejects our culture, she rejects our opportunities, she rejects our affluence. Sherri


*(COMMENT)*

Again, it is their right to decide.  The American way of life, our beliefs on tolerance, our  search for a more perfect Union, improvements to the establishment of justice, our task to insure domestic tranquility, our ability to provide for the common defense, our efforts to improve the general Welfare, and pledge to secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and future generation --- our nation is NOT for everyone.  Not every culture or people have the strength to build and maintain a Union such as ours.  It is a lot of work, and beyond the capacity of many.

Again, they have to decide.  The US is not perfect --- no it is not perfect by a long shot.  But everyday, we try to work and make it better.  We don't always succeed, but we never give-up.  When we fall down, there is no one the US can go and cry to ... we have to pick ourselves up, dust ourselves off, and get on with the effort.  It is not a culture that some people want to be a part of in the world.

So I commend the Gazian Student for making an informed choice and choosing the path in life they want.  *Reject America!* --- if it is not to their taste, their ethic, and their satisfaction _(or if you just plain do like the look of it)_.  Oddly enough --- that is exactly what Americans do if they don't like it, oddly enough _(the Gazian Students' choice)_ is doing it the American way _(anyway)_.

Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## SherriMunnerlyn (Jun 4, 2013)

Sadly, I do not expect it is even safe for those young students in Gaza to visit the US. They might find themselves in some place like Guantanamo Bay, just for being Palestinian.


----------



## sealadaigh (Jun 4, 2013)

RoccoR said:


> SherriMunnerlyn, _et al,_
> 
> I agree in part.
> 
> ...



howard zinn may have a different spin on that.

i suppose we could apply your thoughts to individuals and extol the virtues of an uncaught bernie madoff as opposed to the vices of a bunch of foolish old people.

what americans do that they (gazans) don't like is we supply their enemiy with sophisticated weaponry that kills their children.

in my america there is a sense of justice and fair play that appears to be absent in your flowery words. when thomas jefferson and the signatories decared "all men are created equal" they were speaking to the british...but that isn't reflected in a bottom line.


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## RoccoR (Jun 4, 2013)

SherriMunnerlyn;  _et al,_

Not at all.



SherriMunnerlyn said:


> Sadly, I do not expect it is even safe for those young students in Gaza to visit the US. They might find themselves in some place like Guantanamo Bay, just for being Palestinian.


*(COMMENT)*

In general, I would say that if they are honest and people of integrity who refrain from organizing, instigating, facilitating, participating in, financing, encouraging or tolerating terrorist activities then no one will bother them.

If they cooperate fully in the fight against terrorism, in order to find, deny safe haven and bring to justice, perpetrators of terrorist acts --- no one will bother them.

While there are many that think - to be Palestinian is synonymous with being a Supporter of Terrorism, we are also obligated to provide them the same customs and courtesies we would render to anyone else that comes to visit the US.  That doesn't mean that we will not be apprehensive or suspicious of them.  The Palestinian has a reputation, a history of dangerous criminal behavior pattern as evidenced by past terrorist activity.  The Palestinian is very proud of this dubious reputation and that puts them in a suspect category.  

But Hey!  Mickey Mouse will love you anyway --- at Disneyland.  And if they go to Maui (Hawaii) _(since the are already on the Pacific side)_, there is a place called "Jaws" _("Peahi" to the local residents)_ where you can catch some of the biggest waves in the world (routinely 40' and some as high as 60'-70') to surf.  If you want to meet some of the most unusual people in the world, go to Peahi; you won't see an ugly American in the bunch.

Most Respectfully,
R


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## RoccoR (Jun 4, 2013)

reabhloideach,  _et al,_

Yes, while I write "spin" --- I like to do it with a bowl of Orange Sherbet.



reabhloideach said:


> howard zinn may have a different spin on that.


*(COMMENT)*

I suppose I would be inclined to listen to poor Howard (RIP) if he spoke to me today.



reabhloideach said:


> i suppose we could apply your thoughts to individuals and extol the virtues of an uncaught bernie madoff as opposed to the vices of a bunch of foolish old people.


*(COMMENT)*

Like I said, American isn't perfect.  It is a work-in-progress; a bit farther along then any of the Islamic/Muslim states or cultures.



reabhloideach said:


> what americans do that they (gazans) don't like is we supply their enemiy with sophisticated weaponry that kills their children.


*(COMMENT)*

I guess that what American find distasteful it that Palestinians try to pretend that they never provoked any of the military response.  They shoot 500 rockets into Israel, then cry: What did we do to deserve Operation Cast Lead?

No, no!  American children play the game:  "Who started it."  _(Each kid pointing to the other.)_  I did that myself in the 6th Grade.



			
				From the Movie Lawrence of Arabia (1962) Mr. Dryden: said:
			
		

> If we've been telling lies, you've been telling half-lies. A man who tells lies, like me, merely hides the truth. But a man who tells half-lies has forgotten where he put it.





reabhloideach said:


> in my america there is a sense of justice and fair play that appears to be absent in your flowery words. when thomas jefferson and the signatories decared "all men are created equal" they were speaking to the british...but that isn't reflected in a bottom line.


*(COMMENT)*

There is a difference between theoretical application and reality.  We know that good old Thomas Jefferson owned over 600 slaves while in residence at Monticello.  Today, there are no legal slaves or indentured servants in America.  The reality is that "all men (humans)" are not created equal on a number of different levels.  America is not divorced from reality.  America has to deal with people of all levels on all levels.  And there are Americans that are on unequal footing; economically, educationally, physically, and intellectually.  There is social strata to contend with as well.

And fair play is not universal.  In war, if you are a soldier, the object is to survive your mission.  And if that requires overwhelming force, then that is what you apply.  You don't wait for even odds.  Survival on the battlefield is not a game; but a struggle of maximum effort.  You kill them before they kill you.  Suppression of fire is to overwhelm the opponent; they shoot one rocket, we send back ten.  It is not a an exercise in attrition.  You don't let them whittle you down to the point where you become an ineffective fighting force.  They kill one of yours, you kill ten of them.  It doesn't matter whether you are affecting supremacy in the air, on the ground, or at sea, the key is to establish absolute supremacy. 

America is a highly competitive and complex environment.  Like I said in a previous post, it is not for everyone.

Most Respectfully,
R


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## Hossfly (Jun 4, 2013)

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> Since this is supposed to be a thread about Gaza students, I thought I would bring up something I noticed  happening with Gaza students. They are shunning the West and its influences. I was reading about a student who went on a trip to Malaysia and she turned down a free trip to the US. She rejects our culture, she rejects our opportunities, she rejects our affluence. Sherri


But, Frau Sherri, everyone has the right to reject any culture they want.  Do you really think that Americans would want to actually move to the Muslim world and take up their culture, especially if the Americans were women?  Why don't you move and see how you like it after being a free woman in America?  Meanwhile, let us remember those Americans who were killed by the Palestinians while they were on their way to deliver scholarships to American schools.  By the way, if Frau Sherri's friends want to reject Western culture, they really should not immigrate but should stay in their own home countries.  I am sure that the people of those Western countries in the Western Hemisphere as well as in Europe would be very happy to see that happen.  Why in the world would Frau Sherri's friends want to immigrate here in such great numbers if they hate our culture?


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## Hossfly (Jun 4, 2013)

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> Sadly, I do not expect it is even safe for those young students in Gaza to visit the US. They might find themselves in some place like Guantanamo Bay, just for being Palestinian.


Of course, Frau Sherri, supposedly an American citizens, would never mention that Americans stand a goodf chance of being thrown into a Muslim prisons and who knows when they will see the light of day.  By the way, Frau Sherri, has that American pastor been released in Iran yet?  Additionally, can you imagine how Frau Sherri would fare if some radical Islamic group caught up with her while she was visiting a country where they are operating?  Does Frau Sherri think just because she happens to be a Dhimwit that she would be safe?


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## Kondor3 (Jun 4, 2013)

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> _Sadly, I do not expect it is even safe for those young students in Gaza to visit the US. They might find themselves in some place like Guantanamo Bay, just for being Palestinian._


Well, Sherri, feel free to cite one example of a Palestinian detained by the US '_just for being Palestinian_', and you might gain a shred of credibility in this context...


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## Kondor3 (Jun 4, 2013)

skye said:


> [/URL]


*An Elf, a Hobbit, and two Dwarves, all dressed in burqas? Tolkien's shade is restless tonight*!


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## SherriMunnerlyn (Jun 5, 2013)

Kondor3 said:


> SherriMunnerlyn said:
> 
> 
> > _Sadly, I do not expect it is even safe for those young students in Gaza to visit the US. They might find themselves in some place like Guantanamo Bay, just for being Palestinian._
> ...



Peace between Israel and Palestine

RIAD HAMAD ~~ VICTIM OF MOSSAD  F B I MURDER TO BE*REMEMBERED

Memorial for Riad Hamad.  RIAD HAMAD ~~ VICTIM OF MOSSAD ? F B I MURDER TO BE REMEMBERED | Desertpeace


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## RoccoR (Jun 5, 2013)

SherriMunnerlyn,  _et al,_

I read the article.



SherriMunnerlyn said:


> Kondor3 said:
> 
> 
> > SherriMunnerlyn said:
> ...


*(COMMENT)*

So what ties the FBI and/or Mossad to this unexplained murder?

What is the allegation?

Most Respectfully,
R


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## SherriMunnerlyn (Jun 5, 2013)

Many believe they were behind this mans death. He was speaking out for and raising money for children in Palestine.  And he was investigated because of his involvement with Palestinian childrens charities. Juan Cole wrote about his case. http://www.juancole.com/2008/04/palestinian-children.html  Here is a link to a collection of articles addressing his death.  http://iablog.blogspot.com/2008_04_01_archive.html?m=1


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## SherriMunnerlyn (Jun 5, 2013)

"FBI targets US Palestine activistsLast updated: 3 October 2010Searches, subpoenas, but no charges for anti-war activists 'providing support to terrorists' in Colombia and Palestine.Tracy Molm sometimes has a hard time paying rent, so it came as a surprise when American security forces banged on her door at 7am one morning, and searched her apartment under suspicions she provided material support to a terrorist organisation."

FBI targets US Palestine activists - Al Jazeera English


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## SherriMunnerlyn (Jun 5, 2013)

The US funds the Occupation,  the US funds the human rights abuses, the US funds the hurting and killing of civilians and children in Palestine. Why would Gaza students want to come to the US? Of course, each individual has their own circumstances. Some may have relatives here or want to study here and their needs are dictated by their own personal circumstances.


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## Kondor3 (Jun 5, 2013)

Sherri... in the past several posts, you've given us absolutely nothing... zip... zilch... nada... of substance, to link US law-enforcement and intelligence services to the death of your one eample, other than to say 'many believe'...

Many believe that the earth is flat, too, but reality is a wee-bit different than the belief...

As to your attempts to portray US law-enforcement investigations or home-searches of a handful of Palestinians as typical... no sale there, either...

By your own admission, the handful of people so targeted were suspected of links to Hamas or Hezbollah, in at least one instance, linked to a chlidren's relief organization that is believed to be funneling charity money to fighters...

Hardly indicative of a campaign of harassment or oppression here in the US...

And then, having failed to establish your bona fides with respect to US harassment of Palestinians here in this country...

You then utilize a weak-as-can-be segue to ramble-on about the US funding the Palestinian Occupation and so why would a Gazan to come to the US and on and on and on...

Weren't you the one who just said - a few posts ago - that any Palestinian coming to the US was likely to end-up in Gitmo?

And weren't you challenged to produce something reasonable to substantiate your wild-and-wooly claim?

That didn't go very well for you, did it?

Next, you'll be telling us that there is an entire wing in Gitmo dedicated to Palestinians and that we're in cahoots with the Israelis, spiriting-away Palestinian terrorists to isolate them on that tropical island as a favor to our Israeli friends...

There's your next unfounded, baseless, bull<bleep> rumor... run with it...


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## RoccoR (Jun 5, 2013)

SherriMunnerlyn,  _et al,_

Interesting, yet a bit one-sided in the story here.



SherriMunnerlyn said:


> The US funds the Occupation,  the US funds the human rights abuses, the US funds the hurting and killing of civilians and children in Palestine. Why would Gaza students want to come to the US? Of course, each individual has their own circumstances. Some may have relatives here or want to study here and their needs are dictated by their own personal circumstances.


*(COMMENT)*

As I've noted a couple of times prior to this, since about the time of the Oslo Accord, the US has funded the Palestinian Authority over $4B in various ways; or about $600M annually.  There are not very many countries in the world that get as much per capita foreign aid in comparison to the people of the West Bank and Gaza Strip.

The US doesn't target "Palestinians;" or legitimate charities.  The US targets perpetrators involved in organizing, instigating, facilitating, participating in, financing, encouraging or tolerating terrorist activities.  If you, or any other Palestinian, don't fit that description, then there is nothing to worry about.  But if you are using a charity to funnel money to a "terrorist activity," then expect to be treated accordingly.

Most Respectfully,
R


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## P F Tinmore (Jun 5, 2013)

Kondor3 said:


> skye said:
> 
> 
> > [/URL]
> ...



I don't see that - not even in Gaza.



> March 12, 2010: Special Edition: One Thousand Days on Siege of Gaza! Nagham and Berlanty join the crowds in lighting 1000 candles symbolizing 1000 days on Gaza under siege.



[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gGZgKLZE8hk]12 Sleepless Gaza Jerusalem.mpg - YouTube[/ame]


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## Coyote (Jun 5, 2013)

P F Tinmore said:


> Kondor3 said:
> 
> 
> > skye said:
> ...



It's a fake picture - children are not required to wear a burqa in any countries that I can find.


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## SherriMunnerlyn (Jun 5, 2013)

Kondor3 said:


> Sherri... in the past several posts, you've given us absolutely nothing... zip... zilch... nada... of substance, to link US law-enforcement and intelligence services to the death of your one eample, other than to say 'many believe'...
> 
> Many believe that the earth is flat, too, but reality is a wee-bit different than the belief...
> 
> ...



The US and her unlawful acts in the US  are really not the issue here and something I have no further interest in discussing. All can read about harassment of Muslims in the US and form their own opinions.


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## Kondor3 (Jun 5, 2013)

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> _Since this is supposed to be a thread about Gaza students, I thought I would bring up something I noticed  happening with Gaza students. They are shunning the West and its influences. I was reading about a student who went on a trip to Malaysia and she turned down a free trip to the US. She rejects our culture, she rejects our opportunities, she rejects our affluence. Sherri_


Here's a quarter... call somebody who cares....


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## Kondor3 (Jun 5, 2013)

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> "..._The US and her unlawful acts in the US  are really not the issue here and something I have no further interest in discussing. All can read about harassment of Muslims in the US and form their own opinions._"


Yes... once I've made a claim, and tried to bluff my way through a substantiation, and been called-out on the bluff, I'd lose interest in making such a claim myself... or just move the goal-posts a few kilometers and begin yammering about Muslims in general... hoping that nobody would notice that I couldn't back up my claims about US repression of Palestinians in the US.


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## SherriMunnerlyn (Jun 5, 2013)

. Palestinian activists and American activists for Palestinian rights  are targets of the US and Israel. This is a fact.


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## SherriMunnerlyn (Jun 5, 2013)

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-U6wI-2sjsU&feature=youtube_gdata_player. DN! US government moves to criminalize Palestine solidarity | The Electronic Intifada Israel targets Palestinian-American human rights activist for deportation | Unbound https://www.commondreams.org/headline/2010/09/30-1 FBI targets US Palestine activists - Al Jazeera English. Palestinian activists are targets of the US and Israel.



http://m.democracynow.org/stories/1...rnment-moves-criminalize-palestine-solidarity.  Israel targets Palestinian-American human rights activist for deportation | Unbound https://www.commondreams.org/headline/2010/09/30-1.   FBI targets US Palestine activists - Al Jazeera English


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## member (Jun 5, 2013)

Coyote said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Kondor3 said:
> ...


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## Hossfly (Jun 5, 2013)

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-U6wI-2sjsU&feature=youtube_gdata_player. Palestinian activists and American activists for Palestinian rights  are targets of the US and Israel. This is a fact.


We have peace in America. We don't need foreigners to hold their rallies here.


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## Coyote (Jun 5, 2013)

member said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...




Yer right - the trash bags are real


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## toastman (Jun 5, 2013)

Coyote said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Kondor3 said:
> ...



Really? Hmm, I didn't know that. IS their an age limit in countries require burkas for women where they need to start wearing them ?


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## Coyote (Jun 5, 2013)

toastman said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



Depends on the society.  None require children to wear them - generally, young unmarried women of marriageable age.

Edited to add: info here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burqa


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## sealadaigh (Jun 5, 2013)

Hossfly said:


> SherriMunnerlyn said:
> 
> 
> > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-U6wI-2sjsU&feature=youtube_gdata_player. Palestinian activists and American activists for Palestinian rights  are targets of the US and Israel. This is a fact.
> ...



and we are resurrecting the "know nothing" party now, are we?

i have never seen a less peaceful and more divided america.


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## toastman (Jun 5, 2013)

Coyote said:


> toastman said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...



Ah, I see. Thanks


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## P F Tinmore (Jun 5, 2013)

toastman said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



I have never seen a burka in Palestine. They don't require them for any age.


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## toastman (Jun 5, 2013)

P F Tinmore said:


> toastman said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...



Yes I know that. I was referring to Islamic countries that require women to wear burkas. I was curious if there was an age that they would have to start wearing them, according to the law. I need to review that article more


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## Coyote (Jun 5, 2013)

P F Tinmore said:


> toastman said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...



I think most Islamic countries use the headscarf..


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## P F Tinmore (Jun 5, 2013)

Coyote said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > toastman said:
> ...



That is common in Palestine but it is not a requirement. It is a personal choice.


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## Coyote (Jun 5, 2013)

P F Tinmore said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



It is in many areas ... people assume it's all Burkas. 

3...2...1....someone will post a bunch of Burka pix


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## member (Jun 5, 2013)

Coyote said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...














_hey..._ 

 --- gin~n~tonic....




skye said:


> [/URL]





WE ALL KNOW, its just a matter of time 

 before they wrap her up like a salami & provolone sandwich.


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## sealadaigh (Jun 5, 2013)

Coyote said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...



it really is ridiculous making fun of other ethnicities garb, for whatever reason. not that many people wear them anyway. but hey, what better reason to hate a people than for the clothes they wear. makes perfect sense.

i suppose we could make fun of the orthodox jewish clothes and that little tefillvision do dad that they strap to their foreheads with jesus or dracula or moses inside, who knows who is in there. i just hope whoever it is, that he or she survives the headbanging on walls portion of the holiness competition .

maybe the people who post those pics should look up the haredi burqa sect.

and do not even think of messing with me about this response. i know what the bishops aand popes keep in those rocket hats they wear and let's just saay you got a few more worries than iran becoming a nuclear power.


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## Kondor3 (Jun 5, 2013)

P F Tinmore said:


> "..._I have never seen a burka in Palestine. They don't require them for any age._"


Give it time... give it time... it's coming...


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## member (Jun 5, 2013)

reabhloideach said:


> _*
> 
> "it really is ridiculous making fun of other ethnicities garb, for whatever reason. not that many people wear them anyway.
> but hey, what better reason to hate a people than for the clothes they wear.
> ...












shut up you 

 *"MAN"*




as for ME....this isn't about making fun of *"someone's clothes"* jerk.


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## Coyote (Jun 5, 2013)

Burka's really aren't that common, most of the time it's the Hijab, which is just a headscarf: Hijab by country - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The countries where Burka's are common or mandated seem to be mostly Afghanistan and Pakistan (mostly tribal areas).


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## MHunterB (Jun 5, 2013)

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> Sadly, I do not expect it is even safe for those young students in Gaza to visit the US. They might find themselves in some place like Guantanamo Bay, just for being Palestinian.



When someone makes such patently ridiculous suggestions, they are debasing whatever 'causes' they presume to support.


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## sealadaigh (Jun 5, 2013)

member said:


> reabhloideach said:
> 
> 
> > _*
> ...



what with all your silly fake pics, ya coulda fooled me.


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## SherriMunnerlyn (Jun 5, 2013)

MHunterB said:


> SherriMunnerlyn said:
> 
> 
> > Sadly, I do not expect it is even safe for those young students in Gaza to visit the US. They might find themselves in some place like Guantanamo Bay, just for being Palestinian.
> ...



Hey, I posted sources proving Israel and the US target activists for Palestine in investigations. I am sorry you cannot seem to handle the truth about this.


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## toastman (Jun 5, 2013)

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> MHunterB said:
> 
> 
> > SherriMunnerlyn said:
> ...



If you're going to bring up the 'fact' that the U.S targets activists for "Palestine' , then surely you can tell us why they do this, Sherri?


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## SherriMunnerlyn (Jun 5, 2013)

Watch the video I posted, that question is discussed in it.


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