# Toronto....they have extreme gun control, and their criminals just won't stop shooting people...



## 2aguy (Oct 26, 2018)

Here we have an 8 year old boy almost hit by bullets during a shooting in Toronto...

‘Disgusting’: Police release surveillance video after boy, 8, nearly hit by gunfire in Rexdale

oronto police have released security camera footage of a “disturbing” incident that shows an eight-year-old boy narrowly escaping a hail of gunfire while on his way to buy a popsicle in Rexdale over the weekend.  

Police released information about the shooting on Wednesday, describing it as “callous” and “disgusting.”

“It’s very disturbing – to us, to the community, to the family of an eight year old boy that was walking across the street – that bullets were whizzing by him,” Supt. Ron Taverner said Wednesday.


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## Toronado3800 (Oct 26, 2018)

2aguy said:


> Here we have an 8 year old boy almost hit by bullets during a shooting in Toronto...
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> ‘Disgusting’: Police release surveillance video after boy, 8, nearly hit by gunfire in Rexdale
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Is that proof they need stricter laws because St Louis has more murders and looser gun laws?

I gave advice in the other thread about better angles.


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## shockedcanadian (Oct 26, 2018)

We've had some record numbers, not to mention three terror attacks this year alone.  Media is mostly silent, "things are good people, at least we aren't America!".  On top of, one officer himself accidentally shooting a woman sleeping in her bedroom and the Chief of police of Peel Region (*hush hush, wink wink*) offering her a job in the future while she laid in the hospital healing her wounds.

Canadian police are only good at policing when they are manufacturing and entrapping.  Otherwise, we have the most nepotistic policing culture on earth.  Recruiting is a joke, we have no former soldiers as police officers which to me tells you that motivations for being police in Canada are not primarily about duty.

Oh, and there is legislation being put forward in Toronto AND federally to ban ALL guns.  Let that sink in...


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## Flash (Oct 26, 2018)

The shooting capital of the US (Chicago) has extreme gun control laws.

Why would Canada be any different?


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## 2aguy (Oct 26, 2018)

Toronado3800 said:


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St. Louis has more gun murder because it has been run by democrats for decades and allows known, repeat, violent gun offenders out of jail...what is Canada's excuse?

Also, as St. Louis tries to increase the prison sentence for violent gun offenders, the democrat party is fighting the effort with everything it has....

Rise in Murders Has St. Louis Debating Why

Jennifer M. Joyce, the city’s circuit attorney, or prosecutor, an elected position, complains that in St. Louis, *the illegal possession of a gun is too often “a crime without a consequence,” *making it difficult to stop confrontation from turning lethal.

At the same time, deeper social roots of violence such as addiction and unemployment continue unchecked. *And city officials also cite what they call a “Ferguson effect,”* an increase in crime last year as police officers were diverted to control protests after a white officer shot and killed Michael Brown, an unarmed black teenager in the nearby suburb on Aug. 9.

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*Now, an overstretched department is forced to pick one neighborhood at a time to flood with officers. *Last month, Chief Dotson even asked the state highway patrol if it could lend a dozen men to help watch downtown streets; the agency declined.
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*When the police discover a gun in a car with several passengers, including some with felony records, but no one admits to owning the gun, criminal charges are often impossible, Mr. Rosenfeld said.*

*In addition, according to a 2014 study by Mr. Rosenfeld and his colleagues, a majority of those who are convicted of illegally possessing a gun but not caught using it in a crime receive probation rather than jail time. Gun laws and enforcement are stiffer in many other cities.*

Violence down in St. Louis but homicides hold steady. Are tougher penalties for gun crimes the answer?


But many challenges remain, official said. The department is still down more than 130 officers. Witnesses to crimes remain reluctant to come forward for fear of retaliation, making it difficult to close cases. And a lack of state laws to deter gun crimes has forced the police to turn to federal courts to indict some suspects.

On Tuesday, Edwards made a new pitch: He wants to see the mandatory minimum sentence for armed criminal action raised from its current ceiling of three years to at least 15 years for nonfatal shootings, and 25 years for fatal shootings.

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*On Tuesday, Edwards made a new pitch: He wants to see the mandatory minimum sentence for armed criminal action raised from its current ceiling of three years to at least 15 years for nonfatal shootings, and 25 years for fatal shootings.*
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Some aldermen expressed concern over that proposal: over its potential effectiveness, if it would lead to higher numbers of incarcerated people, or if it would disproportionately target poor, marginalized communities. Edwards argued it would be applied “irrespective of one’s station in life,” and only to those who intended to do harm with a gun.


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## feduptaxpayer (Oct 27, 2018)

2aguy said:


> Here we have an 8 year old boy almost hit by bullets during a shooting in Toronto...
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> ‘Disgusting’: Police release surveillance video after boy, 8, nearly hit by gunfire in Rexdale
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Most of the shootings are done by black gangs who immigrated to Canada from some Caribbean countries like Jamaica. Jamaica is a crime ridden country and why Canada allows more of them to immigrate to Canada is beyond me. Most of them are living off of welfare in Toronto thanks to Canada's present day stupid immigration policy that is destroying a once great British/European Western nation and it would appear as though our politicians are trying to turn Canada into a third world shit hole.  Just saying.


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## 2aguy (Oct 27, 2018)

feduptaxpayer said:


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3rd World immigrant males are driving the violence rates in Europe and Australia as well....


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## rightwinger (Oct 27, 2018)

I’ll accept Toronto’s gun laws and murder rate any day

But I would rather be in NYC with their strict gun laws


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## 2aguy (Oct 27, 2018)

rightwinger said:


> I’ll accept Toronto’s gun laws and murder rate any day




You say that now...but as their criminals become more violent, and the left wing socialists there fail to take real measures....their violent crime rate will continue to go up....while our violent crime rate continues to go down...since Americans have guns...


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## rightwinger (Oct 27, 2018)

2aguy said:


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Of course NYC is even lower with their strict gun  laws


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## percysunshine (Oct 27, 2018)

rightwinger said:


> I’ll accept Toronto’s gun laws and murder rate any day
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> But I would rather be in NYC with their strict gun laws



How about gun free Chicago?


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## 2aguy (Oct 27, 2018)

rightwinger said:


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No...their murder rate is up 8% as deblasio and the democrats dismantle all the good police work Rudy Guiliani created....  

We went from 200 million guns in private hands in the 1990s and 4.7 million people carrying guns for self defense in 1997...to close to 400-600 million guns in private hands and over 17.25  million people carrying guns for self defense in 2018...guess what happened...


--* gun murder down 49%*

*--gun crime down 75%*

*--violent crime down 72%*

Gun Homicide Rate Down 49% Since 1993 Peak; Public Unaware

Compared with 1993, the peak of U.S. gun homicides, the firearm homicide rate was 49% lower in 2010, and there were fewer deaths, even though the nation’s population grew. The victimization rate for other violent crimes with a firearm—assaults, robberies and sex crimes—was 75% lower in 2011 than in 1993. Violent non-fatal crime victimization overall (with or without a firearm) also is down markedly (72%) over two decades.


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## 2aguy (Oct 27, 2018)

percysunshine said:


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Or Balitmore....or D.C........all run by democrats....


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## Andylusion (Oct 27, 2018)

Toronado3800 said:


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If gun laws worked, how can this happen?


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## 2aguy (Oct 27, 2018)

Gun murder in Canada....a growing problem their gun control laws can't stop.....

As Toronto’s tragedies mount is gun crime in Canada spiralling out of control?

As gun murders go up, other kinds of murder can go down

Canada marked a dubious milestone in 2016. That year, shootings pulled past stabbings as the number one method of killing someone in Canada: 223 people were shot to death, 175 were stabbed and the remaining 213 were killed by other means, include beating and strangulation. 

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Criminals using guns is going way up, but most violent crime is still gun-free

Police keep track of every time a criminal pulls a gun, points a gun or shoots a gun that misses. It’s essentially a running tally of every time that a gun is used for a crime without anybody getting hurt. And this number has been jumping precipitously ever since 2005. In 2017 there were 2,734 instances of someone “using, pointing or discharging” a firearm.


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## percysunshine (Oct 27, 2018)

2aguy said:


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Oh sure...you slipped Baltimore in there...spoiler...


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## BlackFlag (Oct 27, 2018)

2aguy said:


> Here we have an 8 year old boy almost hit by bullets during a shooting in Toronto...
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> ‘Disgusting’: Police release surveillance video after boy, 8, nearly hit by gunfire in Rexdale
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What’s Toronto’s murder rate?


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## 2aguy (Oct 27, 2018)

percysunshine said:


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Baltimore is special....they have all the gun laws anti-gunners want, 600,000 people compared to New York's 8 million and the more gun murder victims than New York....


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## 2aguy (Oct 27, 2018)

BlackFlag said:


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It doesn't matter...what matters is that their gun crime rate is going up....see, what a moron like you doesn't understand....the gun laws you worship are supposed to lower the gun crime rate...you know, criminals getting guns.....that they use those guns for crime, but don't use them to commit murder is a matter of personal taste for those criminals...

The point is they keep getting illegal guns no matter what laws you pass...


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## BlackFlag (Oct 27, 2018)

2aguy said:


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Of course it matters.  The goal of gun control is to lower the homicide rate.  What’s the homicide rate in Toronto?


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## percysunshine (Oct 27, 2018)

BlackFlag said:


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One idiot per innocent person.

Chicago is like...15 idiots per innocent person.


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## 2aguy (Oct 27, 2018)

BlackFlag said:


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No moron...the goal of gun control is to keep criminals from getting guns no matter what they use them for.....the criminals in Canada are getting more guns... Canadian criminals simply decide not to use the illegal guns they already have to murder their victims...but that is changing too...


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## BlackFlag (Oct 27, 2018)

percysunshine said:


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Yep.  Guns sold all over Chicago legally.  Guns everywhere there.  The surrounding state flooded with guns, the entire country flooded with over 400 million guns.  Easy as hell for a criminal to get a gun there.


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## BlackFlag (Oct 27, 2018)

2aguy said:


> the criminals in Canada are getting more guns....


At a far lesser rate.  Good job, gun control.


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## rightwinger (Oct 27, 2018)

percysunshine said:


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Interesting case..

Let’s compare the murder rates of Chicago and NYC
NYC is significantly lower and improving. 

Chicago has a border with Conservative state Indiana a few miles outside its city limits. Like most Red states, they have lax gun rules and provide an easy source for weapons

NYC is bordered by NJ and Connecticut which have equally strict gun laws.  The result is low murder rates


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## Toronado3800 (Oct 27, 2018)

Andylusion said:


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Big picture. Not small example.

Maybe the gun laws orevented 100 murders this year.

Maybe not.

That is for us to debate.


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## 2aguy (Oct 27, 2018)

rightwinger said:


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Moron...New York is near Vermont...with absolute zero gun control laws...are you telling us that criminals in New York can't use Map Quest to get to Vermont?

And also, those states next to Chicago..for some reason don't have the high gun murder rate Chicago has...so why don't the criminals in those cities shoot more people in Chicago if guns are the issue?

Do you think before you post?

Baltimore has extreme gun control laws...every law you guys want....and with 600,000 compared to New Yorks 8 million they have more gun murder than New York does...how is that possible according to you?

Houston, Texas...gun stores on every cornere, open and concealed carry of guns, on the border with the Drug state of Mexico with their military armed drug cartels running guns across the border......and they have a lower gun murder number than Chicago..how is that possible?

t...notice the difference between Dallas, Phoenix and Baltimore......according to your numbers...?   Baltimore has extreme gun control....everything you gun grabbers want......and is on the other side of the country from the Narco state of Mexico.......

Dallas--murders 163  ... pop. 1,300,000
Phoenix--murders 152...pop 1,650,000

*Murder rate 2017
Baltimore......343
population......620,961
Population of cities 2016:*

Chicago........2.7 million
L.A................3.9 million
N.Y................8.5 million
Houston........2.3 million
Baltimore......620,961
Detroit...........672,795
Milwaukee.....595,647

St. Louis.......311,404

*Murder rate 2016:*

Chicago........765
L.A.......... .....293
N.Y................335
Houston .......301
Baltimore......318 
Detroit...........303 
Milwaukee.... 142 

St. Louis..........188 

Chicago.... no gun stores, no shooting ranges in city limits. Extreme gun control. 47,000 Concealed carry permits in cook county.....

How Many People Have Concealed Carry Licenses in Your County?

Houston... gun stores on every corner, shooting ranges too, and more concealed carry permits than Chicago. 139,563 licensed permits in the county that contains Houston.

Licensed to Carry: Handguns in Texas

Houston is on the border with the narco state of Mexico....

Gun murder in 2016...

*Population of cities 2016:*

Chicago........2.7 million

Houston........2.3 million


*Murder rate 2016:*

Chicago........765

Houston .......301


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## 2aguy (Oct 27, 2018)

BlackFlag said:


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And yet compared to Houston.....where guns are walking around on almost every hip, gun stores on every corner, and on the border with the drug state of Mexico?   A lower gun murder number than Chicago...how is that possible according to you?

How about Baltimore....as far from the drug state of Mexico as you can get, all the extreme gun control you want.....and 600,000 people compared to Houstons 2.3 million...and more gun murders than Houston....how do you explain that, genius?

t...notice the difference between Dallas, Phoenix and Baltimore......according to your numbers...?   Baltimore has extreme gun control....everything you gun grabbers want......and is on the other side of the country from the Narco state of Mexico.......

Dallas--murders 163  ... pop. 1,300,000
Phoenix--murders 152...pop 1,650,000
*Murder rate 2017
Baltimore......343
population......620,961
Population of cities 2016:*

Chicago........2.7 million
L.A................3.9 million
N.Y................8.5 million
Houston........2.3 million
Baltimore......620,961
Detroit...........672,795
Milwaukee.....595,647

St. Louis.......311,404

*Murder rate 2016:*

Chicago........765
L.A.......... .....293
N.Y................335
Houston .......301
Baltimore......318 
Detroit...........303 
Milwaukee.... 142 

St. Louis..........188 

Chicago.... no gun stores, no shooting ranges in city limits. Extreme gun control. 47,000 Concealed carry permits in cook county.....

How Many People Have Concealed Carry Licenses in Your County?

Houston... gun stores on every corner, shooting ranges too, and more concealed carry permits than Chicago. 139,563 licensed permits in the county that contains Houston.

Licensed to Carry: Handguns in Texas

Houston is on the border with the narco state of Mexico....

Gun murder in 2016...

*Population of cities 2016:*

Chicago........2.7 million

Houston........2.3 million


*Murder rate 2016:*

Chicago........765

Houston .......301


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## Andylusion (Oct 27, 2018)

Toronado3800 said:


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Yeah, just like prohibition eliminated alcohol.  Maybe it prevented 100 intoxicated people a year.  It's debatable.

Or pot laws eliminated getting high on THC.  Maybe it prevented 100 stoners this year.  It's debatable.

Are you following my point?    Both of those have been horrific failures.   Drug use is rampant, far worse than ever before.   So feel free to argue the effectiveness of drug bans.  How many stoners do you claim it prevented?

Hard case to make, isn't it?   Same with prohibition.   There were 100,000 speakeasies across New York city alone.    So how many drinks would you claim prohibition prevented?

I would suggest the answer is none.   For drugs or alcohol, and for illegal guns.

How do I know this?   There is tons of evidence to support it.

Every time gun laws are passed, crime increases.   This is logical, since people now know that innocent people are not legally allowed to defend themselves.  This happened in Australia and in England, and happens in the US.

There isn't a single example where gun laws reduced violence.

At some point you need to start accepting that if gun crime increase, and you have gun laws.... that the laws are not working.


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## Toronado3800 (Oct 28, 2018)

2aguy said:


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The NRA is looking like a bunch of cowards today. Time to pony up and help by having gun buyers pay their fair share of taxes and by helping trace where the stolen guns are coming from.

Until that said NRA starts protesting the Patriot Act and its sjccessors in the streets and fighting against Facebook / corporate surveilance it is pointless to pretend the government doesn't know you have guns.

So stand tall NRA, volunteer guards for these Jewish funerals. March with the gays in their pride parades. Figure out who is and turn in the radical nut jobs (on any side). Stand with the privacy advocate hippies against big brother.  Help us track the illegal guns. March through Ferguson demanding equal treatment for your black brothers.

Otherwise go cower on the fringes of society in your hypocrital bunkers enabling your bigoted friends.


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## Toronado3800 (Oct 28, 2018)

Andylusion said:


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Eh.

You don't think failure as it was, prohibition cut down on the number of drunks leaving baseball games?

You don't think parking cops outside of bars at beer thirty wouldn't cut down on the number of drunks behind the wheel.

Hard case to make isn't it?

Notice the finer points, not that I said banning guns was the right thing to do or that prohibition was a success. Just that it had certain positive results.

I'm for legalization of pot by the way. Plus a random chance of the death penalty for folks caught driving drunk or stoned. We'll see if executing ten or twenty DUI recipiants a year helps. Let us all man up and act like adults.


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## Andylusion (Oct 28, 2018)

Toronado3800 said:


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The NRA is looking like cowards?  How?

Guns are not usually stolen.  They are purchased illegally by black market sellers.   This is like saying all the booze during the great depression was stolen.  No it wasn't stolen.  It was imported illegally, or made illegally.

Very few guns used in crimes are stolen.

Beyond that, the NRA primary purpose is to support the second amendment.  That's why I support them.   I'm not supporting them to fight the Patriot Act.   That is not their purpose.

Tracking stolen guns will never solve anything.   Why hasn't tracking illegal drugs sources all these decades, solved the drug problem?


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## Toronado3800 (Oct 28, 2018)

Andylusion said:


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Who are these black market sellers and where do they get their guns?

From NRA members I hear a lot of talk about how guns are needed to fight the government then NRA members go back to using their Facebook app and turning over their SS # to the bank to make a $500 deposit while letting big government listen into whatever.  They do nothing to maintain their right to secretly own guns but pretend its important for old times sake or because their political party master told them it was important to turn over all their information to companies or the feds in the name of national security or advertising revenue.

THEN, the NRA members remind me they need to carry guns to be safe yet don't go show support for other oppressed groups, be it gays who just get beat up or blacks who have a tough time when they get pulled over.  The NRA needs to show up in force and declare "this isn't us, radical members just give us a bad name" after this or that event sometime.  But they generally don't because it might lose contributions from nuts like my anti-Semitic holocaust denying NRA member uncle.

Maybe NRA members are just too busy reading American Rifleman - November 2018 or something reasonable.  Although I swear the copy I was browsing had a different cover, several of my friends are quite the enthusiasts, I only own one gun but get to try many at their expense and trouble!

Lazy, not cowardly?


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## Andylusion (Oct 28, 2018)

Toronado3800 said:


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Who are they?   Do you not understand what black market means?   Who are these black market drug suppliers?  Oh.... that's right..... they are black market, meaning they don't exactly list their services on the Better Business Bureau or Angie's List.

You do realize that smuggling happens all the time, right?   

And by the way, let's pretend we lived in a magical world, where you could eliminate all guns from manufacturers.

Do you really think you can stop people from making a gun?   Do you know what a Luty is?


It's a home made gun.   You can make these with common parts from a hardware store.    So what do you plan to do?  Plan to ban hardware stores?  Ban Ace Hardware, and Home Depot?

People make handmade guns all the time.

The more you restrict guns, the more you create a market for illegal guns.


You are acting like we can just find these suppliers, and magically guns will go away.

No.  You are wrong.

*THEN, the NRA members remind me they need to carry guns to be safe yet don't go show support for other oppressed groups, be it gays who just get beat up or blacks who have a tough time when they get pulled over.*

Well... yeah.  Why would the NRA be about mythical oppression?   First, there is no oppression.  That is a bunch of BS crap made up from idiots on the left.  Second, that isn't what the NRA is for anyway.

Besides that.... black people defend themselves with guns all the time, and the NRA defends their rights to do that.  So you are completely wrong in your made up BS crap.



Pro-gun control, is pro-racism.  Best way for law abiding minorities to live better and safer, is by defending themselves.

Again.... it is not the NRA's job, to deal with random fringe groups.   Their job is to protect the rights of people to own and carry firearms.   They are doing their job.

Just because they are not doing what YOU think they should... doesn't mean they are not doing what they are supposed to do.


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## Andylusion (Oct 28, 2018)

Toronado3800 said:


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No, it was a complete failure.   Yeah, drunks leaving a baseball game, maybe.... but it didn't reduce the number of drunks.

Yeah, I can post a police officer outside every bar, and they'll sneak out another way.  Or they'll get drunk somewhere else, and drive off.

This is like arguing police stopped underage drinking at the high school by deploying bicycle cops.   I was there when this happened.  You don't think the students changed where they engaged in under age drinking?   I remember when the class president stood up and warned the students when and where these cops would be deployed.... the students who were drinking, simply moved elsewhere.... but it didn't stop a single one... not even one.   Not (ONE). 

We laughed about that for years.

Now, if you want to fully enforce the law, and double the number of police, and have executions for criminal behavior that doesn't take 40 years.......

If you want to have big brother, with police and cameras everywhere.....

I would actually support that to some extent.   But here's the kicker.... if you have that system in place, then still don't need gun control or anything else.    Fully enforcing murder laws, will do the trick.   Putting murderers to death, will do the trick. 

Guns do not magically make law abiding citizens into murderers.   Lack of guns, would not magically make criminals into law abiding citizens.

Enforcing the laws, by itself..... will make people into law abiding citizens.    If every single person on the highway that was speeding, was actually caught... no one would break the speed limit.  It is because so few are caught, that so many break the speed limit.

Same with murder, rape, stealing, vandalizing.   If everyone was caught, and punished, no one would do it.


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## Taz (Nov 5, 2018)

2aguy said:


> Here we have an 8 year old boy almost hit by bullets during a shooting in Toronto...
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> ‘Disgusting’: Police release surveillance video after boy, 8, nearly hit by gunfire in Rexdale
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Do you own a lot of gun stocks? Because otherwise you’re just bat shit crazy about guns.


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## 2aguy (Nov 5, 2018)

Taz said:


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If you read my posts you would see it isn't guns that I am concerned with...it is the Right to Keep and Bear arms and the Right to self defense.....I actually find guns pretty boring otherwise...but they are the best tool for normal people to fight off violent career criminals....


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## Taz (Nov 6, 2018)

2aguy said:


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In other words, you're concerned about guns. Own up, you own a lot of stock in gun manufacturers. AND you're bat shit crazy.


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## Dragonlady (Nov 9, 2018)

shockedcanadian said:


> We've had some record numbers, not to mention three terror attacks this year alone.  Media is mostly silent, "things are good people, at least we aren't America!".  On top of, one officer himself accidentally shooting a woman sleeping in her bedroom and the Chief of police of Peel Region (*hush hush, wink wink*) offering her a job in the future while she laid in the hospital healing her wounds.
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> Canadian police are only good at policing when they are manufacturing and entrapping.  Otherwise, we have the most nepotistic policing culture on earth.  Recruiting is a joke, we have no former soldiers as police officers which to me tells you that motivations for being police in Canada are not primarily about duty.
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> Oh, and there is legislation being put forward in Toronto AND federally to ban ALL guns.  Let that sink in...



As usual, you're lying.  Yes there is a big spike in murders in Toronto this year, but that includes the 11 people run down in the Incel Attack on Yonge Street.  

Yes, Toronto had terror attacks this year.  Committed by white guys with mental illness.  Imagine if that crazy in Greektown had been able to get hands on an AK47 instead of that handgun he had.  A lot more than 2 people would have died.

As for your comments about police, the US has a high number of former military men in police uniform because until the 1980's, ALL American men over the age of 18 were drafted into the armed forces and expected to serve in the military.  In fact, if you didn't serve, it's unlikely the police would have even considered you.

Canada has a much, much smaller military than the US and ours in a career military.  Guys dont go in expecting to serve a two years and gone, like the draftees.  The military is viewed as a career in Canada.

Your level of ignorance on all things Canadian is shocking consider you claim to live in this country.  In fact, your level of ignorance is so astonishing and so totally and your anti-Canadian bias so extreme, that it's really difficult to believe anything other than you're a Russian troll whose job it is to stir up Americans against Canada and NAFTA, because you know nothing about either.


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