# Solar Energy Is The Way To Go!



## overland (Jan 12, 2017)

Just think if every house and building had solar panels on them.  Do you know what would happen?  The U.S. would produce far more energy than it could use. Let alone having large areas of solar panels in desert areas.  Though there is a combination of mental diseases that are keeping it from happening.  Capitalism and Democracy.

  There is only one slight drawback.  One that is EASLY overcome.  Despite what you might hear to the contrary.  That is storing the energy to be used for times when there is no sunlight.  That can be done with scaled up batteries, capacitors or using excess electricity to heat sodium to run generators during times when there is less sunlight.  Power transmission lines would also still have some use in moving power around to where it is most needed.


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## elektra (Jan 22, 2017)

The only drawback I see, is less then half the houses have a roof facing the sun, and of those houses less than half have their entire roof facing the sun, and of those houses less than half live in an area with enough sun to meet the needs of a modern nation.

yea, nobody replied to the stupidity of this post, but it seems worth saying, all we get from the Democrats is the dreams of the ignorant.


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## Old Rocks (Jan 24, 2017)

There are a vast number of near flat roofs, warehouses, shopping centers, manufacturing buildings, ect. These will do just fine, and, in combination with grid scale storage will give us 24/7 energy, at less than the cost of dirty coal.


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## Death Angel (Feb 8, 2017)

I'm as conservative as anyone, but solar power IS in our near future. It is practical, and it's becoming even more so as new manufacturing techniques cause the price of cells to plummet. It's ridiculous to not take advantage of this. Sunlight generates 1,000 watts per sq meter. Even on a cloudy day you get something -- about 35%. 

While it's not the route I'd go, what if our government, instead of pumping HUNDREDS OF BILLIONS (trillions?) in Middle East wars, invested that money in the production of Solar panels FOR THE HOME OWNER? I'm not talking about giving that equipment to the utilities, but to the homeowner. NATIONAL energy independence is great, but INDIVIDUAL energy independence is even better.

It is possible. We only need the national will. Personally, I'm sick and tired of helping Muslim fanatics get rich off Americans and Europeans.


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## Old Rocks (Feb 10, 2017)

That requires two things, a distributed grid, and an incentive for businesses to use their roofs for as generators. And, of course, grid scale storage both at the generation point, and the point of use.


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## fncceo (Feb 10, 2017)

Solar energy is the way to go ... BROKE!


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## Old Rocks (Feb 11, 2017)

Fucking dumb, fncceo. So, because the Whippet failed, we should have abandoned all auto building? A great many other solar companies are doing quite well. And, in Texas, they are installing a giga-watt installation, even as solar has become the cheapest form of new generation.


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## fncceo (Feb 11, 2017)

Imagine a mother feeding her child.  She does so willingly, and asks for nothing in return.  But this mother is capricious, she only feeds the child when she is in the mood.  She may overfeed the child one day, and then go for days without feeding that child.  The child, being a child, cannot save up the food she brought days ago, it goes wasted on the ground.   Now, some will blame the child for not being able to survive on the unpredictable feeding schedule of the mother, saying he's being selfish or wasteful.  But, a child is hungry when it is hungry.  A child must be fed on demand or it is abuse.

Solar energy seems like a great idea.  It is a great idea, I use it myself on the farm.  But ... it is not and will never be a substitute for the ability to generate energy on demand.  There is no technology in existence or on the horizon that can store electricity from wind or solar on anything resembling a mass scale.  

Spending billions of taxpayer dollars propping up companies who flog this 'solution' or demand by legislation that we buy those products is criminal theft.


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## Old Rocks (Feb 12, 2017)

Wrong.

Build your Powerpack Energy Storage Solution | Tesla

And that is just one manufacturer.


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## fncceo (Feb 12, 2017)

Old Rocks said:


> Wrong.
> 
> Build your Powerpack Energy Storage Solution | Tesla
> 
> And that is just one manufacturer.



Let's do some math on that.  Telsa markets two versions of the Li-Ion Powerwall, a 7Kw/H and a 10Kw/H.  Deep-cycle batteries start to break down if continuously discharged below 50% of capacity so, the effective capacity of the larger Powerwall is 5Kw/H.  Now ... an average suburban home uses between 9 and 15 Kw/H in a day (Let's say 10 for simplicity.  So, an average home deriving power exclusively from solar will plow through the capacity of two Powerwalls on a regular day.  It takes another 10.5Kw/H of solar power to fully recharge those batteries.

A small suburban power plant will furnish power to 10,000 homes and businesses on the grid.  So, in an area of guaranteed sunshine 365 days a year (never one cloudy day) it will take 20,000 Tesla Powerwalls to provide power to the grid.  A more realistic scenario even in the southwest would be one full sun day out of two so 40,000 Powerwalls.including 4.4 million Kgs of materials.  Recharging the full capacity of those 10,000 homes would require 420,000 Kw/H of solar power per day (at 100% efficiency) or 2.1 million solar panels.

Here's the good news.  Normal deep-cycle batteries have a shelf-life of three years in commercial use.  Tesla offers a 10 year warranty for residential use, no word as of yet of a commercial use warranty.  The warranty says the battery will retain 70% of its charge capacity for up to 10 years.

Recycling Li-ION batteries is less toxic than other forms of batteries but the manufacture of Li-ION battteries requires 1.6 Kgs of oil per 1.0 Kg of battery or 7 million Kgs of oil (6.4 million liters) to produce the batteries for a single power plant.  Those batteries being replaced every 10 to 15 years.

Telsa currently charges US$5,000 per battery but lets say they get the price point down to half of that -- $2,500 per battery.  The cost of batteries alone would be $100,000,000 or $10,000,000 per year over 10 years -- $1,000 a year per home just for the batteries -- the least expensive component in the system.

I used a small powerplant scenario to keep the numbers manageable, but cities require power plants many times that size.  The largest coal plant (assume this technology to replace coal versus nuclear or hydro) in the US generates 3.5Gw/H, nearly 9,000 times larger than what we're discussing here.

So, not QUITE there yet.


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## Old Rocks (Feb 16, 2017)

*Note that the link is to Powerpack, not the Powerwall*. 

Build your Powerpack Energy Storage Solution | Tesla

*Design Your Powerpack System*
Powerpack systems are fully integrated energy storage solutions for commercial, industrial, and utility sites. The system includes one or more Powerpack units, inverters, controllers and supporting hardware.

POWER
kW
+-
DURATION
Hours
+-
*System Overview*
500 kW2,100 kWh4 hour duration



*Includes:*

Powerpack units
Powerpack inverters
Powerpack Controller
Cabling & Site Support Hardware
*Total Estimate$902,360*
Power and energy ratings are rounded to simplify price estimation. Once your order is placed, we will work with you to finalize your system's precise specifications and price.

Have questions about Powerpack storage for your business or utility?Request a call.

Interested in energy storage for your home? Learn more about Powerwall.

Everything we know about Tesla’s massive commercial battery, the Powerpack

Most recently, Tesla was selected to provide 20 MW/80 MWh Powerpack system at the Southern California Edison Mira Loma substation, making it the largest lithium ion battery storage project in the world. The Powerpacks will charge by drawing energy from the grid during off-peak hours.

But as a better indicator of how the Powerpack fits into solar installation, SolarCity is using Tesla's 52 MWh Powerpack to bring 20 years of power to the Hawaiian island Kaua’i. SolarCity built a 12 MW solar farm to help supply the power.

There are currently 300 MWh of Tesla batteries deployed in 18 countries, Tesla wrote in a blog post.


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## Mr Natural (Feb 16, 2017)

What these companies need to do is come up with roof mounted  solar collectors that look and function as shingles.


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## Old Rocks (Feb 16, 2017)

Tesla Solar

Already done.


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## fncceo (Feb 16, 2017)

Old Rocks said:


> *Note that the link is to Powerpack, not the Powerwall*.
> 
> Build your Powerpack Energy Storage Solution | Tesla
> 
> ...



Changing from Powerwall to Powerpack (the commercial version of the first without built-in inverter) changes only one factor in the equations -- the number of batteries required.  The materials required, the petroleum used to produce it, the cost of the infrastructure, all remain unchanged -- a 50kW Powerpack weighs nearly TWO METRIC TONNES and costs $50,000 per battery.
The Powerpack isn't a more efficient type of battery, just a larger one.  A fifty pound bag versus a five pound bag. 

Using Li-ION batteries to store solar power is the last gasp of a dying technology.  Like making a giant steam engine to do the work of a tiny internal combustion engine.  Like trying to make a steam-powered airplane.

Using grid power to charge batteries in non-peak times is LESS efficient then simply generating less power during non-peak times.  Burning more coal to charge batteries -- convert AC to DC -- then use that power later -- convert DC to AC incurs a significant efficiency loss which doesn't exist when putting energy directly into the grid. More energy production for less electricity produced. 

Battery-supplied grid -- impractical for anything greater than a few hundred homes per station -- is a feel-good, go-green publicity stunt and a tax-payer funded boondoggle.  I have no problem with publicity stunts -- only with those stunts which the taxpayer pays the bill.

There is a future for solar and wind in the grid -- but it will only come with commercially-viable artificial photosynthesis.  The ability to directly store sunlight energy in chemical form.  This technology is decades (or more) away and every penny we piss down the rat hole trying to make batteries do work they were never designed to do is money that won't go into researching ACTUAL technology that could one day replace fossil-fuel energy production.


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## Old Rocks (Feb 16, 2017)

OK, that is your opinion. In the meantime, Tesla will sell those batteries as fast as they can manufacture them. And there are other manufacturers in the game also. 

What I see, is a distributed grid being brought into being as these batteries are added both at the generation and use points. As for your hydrogen dreams, dream on. That technology has been bypassed by the much superior batteries.


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## grapple (Feb 20, 2017)

overland said:


> Just think if every house and building had solar panels on them.  Do you know what would happen?  The U.S. would produce far more energy than it could use. Let alone having large areas of solar panels in desert areas.  Though there is a combination of mental diseases that are keeping it from happening.  Capitalism and Democracy.
> 
> There is only one slight drawback.  One that is EASLY overcome.  Despite what you might hear to the contrary.  That is storing the energy to be used for times when there is no sunlight.  That can be done with scaled up batteries, capacitors or using excess electricity to heat sodium to run generators during times when there is less sunlight.  Power transmission lines would also still have some use in moving power around to where it is most needed.



  Seeing how the person who wrote this is gone for some unexplainable reason, this is for "To Whom It May Concern.  Another interesting point about solar panels is that over their lifetimes, they produce more power than it took to create them.  (How much more, I don't know)  I would call that something very close to perpetual motion.   It's no wonder that energy companies oppose them at every turn.  It is hard to make money off something like that.


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## grapple (Feb 20, 2017)

elektra said:


> The only drawback I see, is less then half the houses have a roof facing the sun, and of those houses less than half have their entire roof facing the sun, and of those houses less than half live in an area with enough sun to meet the needs of a modern nation.
> 
> yea, nobody replied to the stupidity of this post, but it seems worth saying, all we get from the Democrats is the dreams of the ignorant.



  Are you stupid?  Or do you get money in some way from the energy industry.  If roofs face the sky, they are basically facing the sun.  And even where they aren't, the solar panels don't have to follow the angle of the roof.  As for "meeting the needs," most people are away during the day at work.  How much electricity are they using then.  But would you care to guess what solar panels would be doing the whole time?


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## Old Rocks (Feb 20, 2017)

Here in Portland, there are huge roofs that cover manufacturing facilites, warehouses, and shopping malls. Were these covered with solar panels, a large part of the power needs of the city would be met.


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## blenkins90 (Mar 4, 2017)

Elon Musk just announced recently that his solar roof cost (installation and materials) cost less than that of a normal roof. And that's before energy costs.

I believe he also mentioned not too long ago that it was more durable than a normal roof as well. Seems like a good option to me no matter what if that's the case.


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## Mr. H. (Mar 13, 2017)

Old Rocks said:


> That requires two things, a distributed grid, and an incentive for businesses to use their roofs for as generators. And, of course, grid scale storage both at the generation point, and the point of use.


And subsidies. Lots of subsidies...


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## Mr. H. (Mar 13, 2017)

Without fossil fuels, there would be no solar industry.


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## Old Rocks (Mar 14, 2017)

Mr. H. said:


> Old Rocks said:
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> ...


Solar and wind is now the same price or cheaper than new fossil fuel capacity in more than 30 countries, the WEF reported in December (pdf).* As prices for solar and wind power continue their precipitous fall, two-thirds of all nations will reach the point known as “grid parity” within a few years, even without subsidies*. “Renewable energy has reached a tipping point,” Michael Drexler, who leads infrastructure and development investing at the WEF, said in a statement. “It is not only a commercially viable option, but an outright compelling investment opportunity with long-term, stable, inflation-protected returns.”

Those numbers are already translating into vast new acres of silicon and glass. In 2016, utilities added 9.5 gigawatts (GW) of photovoltaic capacity to the US grid, making solar the top fuel source for the first time in a calendar year, according to the US Energy Information Administration’s estimates. The US added about 125 solar panels every minute in 2016, about double the pace last year, reports the Solar Energy Industry Association.

In 2016, solar-panel energy finally became cheaper than fossil fuels. Just wait for 2017.

*I happen to agree, the subsidies can be reduces or even eliminated. And solar and wind will still continue to displace fossil fuels. *


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## Old Rocks (Mar 14, 2017)

Mr. H. said:


> Without fossil fuels, there would be no solar industry.


Without horses there would be no automobiles. Now there are horses still around and used on working ranches. But they are no longer the primary source of transportation. And that is what it will by like for hydrocarbons. They will eventually be little use for them as fuel, but as industrial stock, they will be pretty much here for another thousand years.


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## Mr. H. (Mar 14, 2017)

Old Rocks said:


> *Note that the link is to Powerpack, not the Powerwall*.
> 
> Build your Powerpack Energy Storage Solution | Tesla
> 
> ...


Every last bit of it brought to you by.... fossil fuels. No fossil fuels, no solar. No fossil fuels, no wind generation. 

Fossil fuels are the building blocks for everything. How will "renewables" generate the thousands of tons of medical equipment used around the globe every year? You are pissing up your leg.


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## Indeependent (Mar 14, 2017)

Mr. H. said:


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My personal electric bill has been reduced by over $230.00/month.


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## Mr. H. (Mar 14, 2017)

Old Rocks said:


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Fossil fuels make your fantasies your own reality. You are a delusional old man.


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## Mr. H. (Mar 14, 2017)

Well I guess I'm a delusional old man too, but my delusions have to do with drugs, sex, and alcohol. Not with reality.


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## Mr. H. (Mar 14, 2017)

Suck it up, old man. Pump the jam. Jam the pump. Get into the rhythm of the beat. You lose, mother scratcher. 

I got some Old Rocks, they smell like my socks.
Like a heap of cocks they ferment 
With no lament...

BOOMP CHUCK BOOMP CHUCK BOOMP CHUCK


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## Mr. H. (Mar 14, 2017)

Indeependent said:


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If we want factual pertinent information from you, we'll ask for it.


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## Indeependent (Mar 14, 2017)

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If I give a sh!t about your existence, I'll let you know about it.


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## Mr. H. (Mar 14, 2017)

Indeependent said:


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...said the cock gobbler.


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## Indeependent (Mar 14, 2017)

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Are you not funny or are you going out of your way to be not funny?


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## Mr. H. (Mar 14, 2017)

Indeependent said:


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Go piss on yourself, you impertinent piece of ovulating woman. .


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## Indeependent (Mar 14, 2017)

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You're not even trying; I'm insulted.
Actually, you are quite trying.
Go start an "I Hate Jews" Thread.


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## Mr. H. (Mar 14, 2017)

Indeependent said:


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You'll have to speak up, I have a banana in my ear.


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## Indeependent (Mar 14, 2017)

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Since you have no brain it's probably in both ears.


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## Mr. H. (Mar 14, 2017)

Indeependent said:


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I hat jew too, santuary mulch.


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## Indeependent (Mar 14, 2017)

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Can you edit that into an actual language?


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## Mr. H. (Mar 14, 2017)

Indeependent said:


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I'm all ears, you're all rears. Ass munch.


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## Indeependent (Mar 14, 2017)

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OK...


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## Mr. H. (Mar 14, 2017)

Indeependent said:


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You're the one with a Groucho avatar. Let the humor school begin.


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## Indeependent (Mar 14, 2017)

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I've been funny all day; my "Funny and Agree" clicks prove it.
You?  You've got nuthin'.


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## Indeependent (Mar 14, 2017)

Indeependent said:


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And one more!
Thanks!


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## Mr. H. (Mar 14, 2017)

Indeependent said:


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I grew up with the Marx brothers and W.C. Fields. Good shit.


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## Mr. H. (Mar 14, 2017)

Lap dog.


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## Old Rocks (Mar 15, 2017)

Mr. H. said:


> Well I guess I'm a delusional old man too, but my delusions have to do with drugs, sex, and alcohol. Not with reality.


OK


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