# Nuclear meltdown in Japan reactor?



## Mini 14 (Mar 11, 2011)

They have completely lost the cooling towers. Unable to stop the heating now.

Evacuated to a radius of 10 miles, and expanding as fast as they can.

It isn't good.


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## Baruch Menachem (Mar 11, 2011)

They are probably having a water leak, not a meltdown.   Water is only used for heat exchange, not for reactor control

That said, a major water leak from one of those places is not a good thing.  The water from one of these places is very poisonous.

on edit.
OOops, a couple random facts got in the way here.

They still need to use water to cool down the cores after they have been shut off.  the process generates a lot of heat so they still need to carry that heat away to keep the cores safe.

Also, the storage area needs to have continually circulation water or it boils off, and the water isn't circulating, as the pumps are off.

So things aren't going very well over there.

That said, this is nothing like Chernobyl.   And they will be doing their best to get power back to the place to keep the pumps moving water until things stabilize.   

Most of the news I see on this is from usual freaks being freaky.   People in the know are busy


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## Mini 14 (Mar 11, 2011)

Baruch Menachem said:


> They are probably having a water leak, not a meltdown.   Water is only used for heat exchange, not for reactor control
> 
> That said, a major water leak from one of those places is not a good thing.  The water from one of these places is very poisonous.



I don't know. The latest reports make it sound as if the Japanese know something bad is happening and they are not going to be able to stop it.

I don't know anything about nuclear reaction, but the tension is definitely spreading as they continue to be unable to solve whatever the problem is. They are talking now of evacuating to a 50 mile radius?


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## Ravi (Mar 11, 2011)

From what was said on NPR, the back up generators to cool the reactor failed and they only have between five and eight hours of back up batteries.


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## Mini 14 (Mar 11, 2011)

Ravi said:


> From what was said on NPR, the back up generators to cool the reactor failed and they only have between five and eight hours of back up batteries.



Sounds like what I heard too, they cannot control the heating, and they've lost power to the cooling systems.


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## Old Rocks (Mar 11, 2011)

Japan earthquake: nuclear disaster fears as reactor overheats - Telegraph
Prime minister Naoto Kan declared a nuclear emergency as his trade minister admitted that a radiation leak might occur at the Fukushima power plant. 

The reactor&#8217;s cooling system failed after the 8.9-magnitude tremor hit northern Japan at 2.46pm local time. Pressure in the reactor was continuing to rise after repeated efforts to return power to the cooling systems failed. Radiation inside the plant soared to 1,000 times its normal level, officials said, triggering evacuation orders for about 3,000 residents as the government declared its first-ever state of emergency at a nuclear plant. 

Reports were also emerging of a second atomic plant in the earthquake-hit area experiencing reactor cooling problems.


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## Old Rocks (Mar 11, 2011)

Threat of Nuclear Disaster in Japan | Accuracy.Org

AP is reporting: &#8220;Japan ordered thousands of residents near a northeastern nuclear power plant to evacuate today following a massive earthquake that caused a problem in the plant&#8217;s cooling system.&#8221;

KEVIN KAMPS
Kamps is a specialist in nuclear waste at Beyond Nuclear. Last year he was in Japan assessing the state of nuclear facilities there. He said today: &#8220;The electrical grid is down. The emergency diesel generators have been damaged. The multi-reactor Fukushima atomic power plant is now relying on battery power, which will only last around eight hours. The danger is, the very thermally hot reactor cores at the plant must be continuously cooled for 24 to 48 hours. Without any electricity, the pumps won&#8217;t be able to pump water through the hot reactor cores to cool them. Once electricity is lost, the irradiated nuclear fuel could begin to melt down. If the containment systems fail, a catastrophic radioactivity release to the environment could occur.

&#8220;In addition to the reactor cores, the storage pool for highly radioactive irradiated nuclear fuel is also at risk. The pool cooling water must be continuously circulated. Without circulation, the still thermally hot irradiated nuclear fuel in the storage pools will begin to boil off the cooling water. Within a day or two, the pool&#8217;s water could completely boil away. Without cooling water, the irradiated nuclear fuel could spontaneously combust in an exothermic reaction. Since the storage pools are not located within containment, a catastrophic radioactivity release to the environment could occur. Up to 100 percent of the volatile radioactive Cesium-137 content of the pools could go up in flames and smoke, to blow downwind over large distances. Given the large quantity of irradiated nuclear fuel in the pool, the radioactivity release could be worse than the Chernobyl nuclear reactor catastrophe of 25 years ago.&#8221;


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## Old Rocks (Mar 11, 2011)

Just heard on the news that they have declared a nuclear emergency on five reactors in two locations.


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## dilloduck (Mar 11, 2011)

The need some good old reliable generators powered by petrochemicals --shocker.


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## Old Rocks (Mar 11, 2011)

14,000 evacuated now, situation seems to be getting worse.


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## dilloduck (Mar 11, 2011)

earthquake produces a tsunami that shorts out the power to the nuclear reactors that generate electicity for millions. Gotta be caused by man somehow.


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## rdean (Mar 11, 2011)

People have said Japan has the most safe nuclear power plants in the world.  

1.  No matter how safe, nuclear reactors should NOT be built in earthquake zones.

2.  This shows the importance of safety regulations.  Without them, it would already be over, and it still might be.

Republicans wanted to defund the Tsunami Warning system and they hate regulations.  Thank Gawd they aren't scientists and don't believe in science.  Otherwise, we would have nuclear power plants on the top of every mountain, ready to "tip over".


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## Old Rocks (Mar 11, 2011)

dilloduck said:


> The need some good old reliable generators powered by petrochemicals --shocker.



Q&A: What's happening at Japanese nuclear plants? - latimes.com

What happened?

Shaking from the magnitude 8.9 quake caused the reactors' control rods to be inserted into the core, a safety precaution that shut down the reactors' ability to generate electricity. The cores remained very hot, however, and would boil away all the cooling water within an hour unless the water were continuously circulating through the reactors' cooling towers. But the tsunami also destroyed the electrical grid that would provide power to the cooling pumps and disabled the backup diesel generators that were supposed to kick in if that happened. That left only batteries to run the pumps.

*And they failed. Nature created the earthquake, man created a vulnerable reactor and flawed backup systems.*


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## dilloduck (Mar 11, 2011)

Old Rocks said:


> dilloduck said:
> 
> 
> > The need some good old reliable generators powered by petrochemicals --shocker.
> ...



We outta leave the earth I guess.


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## Old Rocks (Mar 11, 2011)

Maybe you oughta get a brain.


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## dilloduck (Mar 11, 2011)

Old Rocks said:


> Maybe you oughta get a brain.



I'll take a solar powered one please.


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## Finnguy (Mar 11, 2011)

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LueiZjHd-kM&feature=feedu"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LueiZjHd-kM&feature=feedu[/ame]


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## Chris (Mar 11, 2011)

Japan declared states of emergency for five nuclear reactors at two power plants after the units lost cooling ability in the aftermath of the powerful quake. Thousands of residents were evacuated as workers struggled to get the reactors under control to prevent meltdowns.The earthquake knocked out power at the Fukushima Daiichi plant, and because a backup generator failed, the cooling system was unable to supply water to cool the 460-megawatt No. 1 reactor. Authorities said radiation levels had jumped 1,000 times normal inside Unit 1 and were measured at eight times normal outside the plant.Japan&#8217;s nuclear safety agency said the situation was most dire at Fukushima Daiichi&#8217;s Unit 1, where pressure had risen to twice what is considered the normal level. 

Devastation in wake of historic temblor - Lake County News-Sun


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## waltky (Mar 12, 2011)

Granny says, "Dey put a nuclear power plant over a earthquake fault? Well, dat was dumb...

*Japan Quake Causes Emergencies at 5 Nuke Reactors*
_Mar 11, 2011 - Japan declared states of emergency for five nuclear reactors at two power plants after the units lost cooling ability in the aftermath of Friday's powerful earthquake. Thousands of residents were evacuated as workers struggled to get the reactors under control to prevent meltdowns._


> Operators at the Fukushima Daiichi plant's Unit 1 scrambled ferociously to tamp down heat and pressure inside the reactor after the 8.9 magnitude quake and the tsunami that followed cut off electricity to the site and disabled emergency generators, knocking out the main cooling system. Some 3,000 people within two miles (three kilometers) of the plant were urged to leave their homes, but the evacuation zone was more than tripled to 6.2 miles (10 kilometers) after authorities detected eight times the normal radiation levels outside the facility and 1,000 times normal inside Unit 1's control room.
> 
> The government declared a state of emergency at the Daiichi unit - the first at a nuclear plant in Japan's history. But hours later, the Tokyo Electric Power Co., which operates the six-reactor Daiichi site in northeastern Japan, announced that it had lost cooling ability at a second reactor there and three units at its nearby Fukushima Daini site. The government quickly declared states of emergency for those units, too. Nearly 14,000 people living near the two power plants were ordered to evacuate.
> 
> ...


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## Big Fitz (Mar 12, 2011)

The freezniks are going to come out of their mommie's closet that they've been in since the 1980's claiming that nuclear power (once the salvation of mankind) will kill us all... again.

A freak disaster and suddenly, it's Malthusian Time!  Break out the Pinwheels, Mirrors and Moonshine!  It's time to wear hemp and live in grass huts while hunting and gathering again.


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## madasheck (Mar 12, 2011)

Rachel Maddow did a thorough discussion of the situation. It's pretty scary.


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## madasheck (Mar 12, 2011)

Big Fitz said:


> The freezniks are going to come out of their mommie's closet that they've been in since the 1980's claiming that nuclear power (once the salvation of mankind) will kill us all... again.
> 
> A freak disaster and suddenly, it's Malthusian Time!  Break out the Pinwheels, Mirrors and Moonshine!  It's time to wear hemp and live in grass huts while hunting and gathering again.



You realize this could be an international catastrophe?


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## dilloduck (Mar 12, 2011)

madasheck said:


> Rachel Maddow did a thorough discussion of the situation. It's pretty scary.



She's scary no matter what she says but stayed tuned to see what happens next in this thriller.


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## Big Fitz (Mar 12, 2011)

madasheck said:


> Big Fitz said:
> 
> 
> > The freezniks are going to come out of their mommie's closet that they've been in since the 1980's claiming that nuclear power (once the salvation of mankind) will kill us all... again.
> ...


Obviously you're seeing something that may or may not be there.  Please elaborate on how a National catastrophe is an international one.


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## Big Fitz (Mar 12, 2011)

madasheck said:


> Rachel Maddow did a thorough discussion of the situation. It's pretty scary.


Madcow is a propagandist, not a news source.


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## justintruth (Mar 12, 2011)

If any of you are US anti-nuclear activists I just wanted to thank you for stopping the tsunami of nuclear plants that would be in the USA right now. Your foresight and sustained political work over my entire adult life in anticipating the potential environmental damage has made the country much safer and I know it cost you personally as there is no profit motive in it for you. We can live wonderful lives in harmony with nature. The arrogance of the pro-nuclear industries who simultaneously assure us that there is no chance of a meltdown and demand that public funds indemnify their businesses "in case" there is one is surpassed only by their well funded attempts to characterize the normal, rational, practical, civic sense of the antinuclear activists as being "wide eyed", "naive", "kooky", "childish" etc. I am genuinely grateful for what you have accomplished. I know that the job is mostly "thankless". I therefore want to say thanks. So, thanks!


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## bigrebnc1775 (Mar 12, 2011)

Explosion en direct a la centrale de Fukushima #séisme #nucléaire

Mat - Explosion en direct a la centrale de Fukushima #séisme #nucléaire - TwitVid


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## zzzz (Mar 12, 2011)

Hysteria gets you nowhere and the media specializes in hysterical hype. It is a critical situation but the media always presents everything in the worst light.

If all they need are generators, we have military airlift capability that can carry tanks and I am sure we have generators over here that power these cooling systems. And it is a national security concern for us because any radioactive release will inevitably over fly the US. But before you get all paranoid, remember back in the 50's and 60's nuclear fallout occurred quit frequently over the US because of nuclear testing in the west and the pacific ocean. Vast amount of radioactive material was released in the atmosphere and guess what. We are still here and many of you were born after that.


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## editec (Mar 12, 2011)

Big Fitz said:


> The freezniks are going to come out of their mommie's closet that they've been in since the 1980's claiming that nuclear power (once the salvation of mankind) will kill us all... again.
> 
> *A freak disaster* and suddenly, it's Malthusian Time! Break out the Pinwheels, Mirrors and Moonshine! It's time to wear hemp and live in grass huts while hunting and gathering again.


 
Its' not a "freak" disaster, sport.  

It was an earthquake in a place where earthquakes are a well known, well understood and completely NORMAL event.

Obviously the safegards put into place to deal with this earthquake and Tsuami just weren't good enough.

The solution isn't  

_Break out the Pinwheels, Mirrors and Moonshine! It's time to wear hemp and live in grass huts while hunting and gathering againMake those safeguards better._

 it is to make even better safeguards.

It might behoove mankind  NOT to put nuclear plants in active eathquake zones, too, don't you think?


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## Annie (Mar 12, 2011)

editec said:


> Big Fitz said:
> 
> 
> > The freezniks are going to come out of their mommie's closet that they've been in since the 1980's claiming that nuclear power (once the salvation of mankind) will kill us all... again.
> ...



I actually agree that building nuclear reactors in earthquake zones is not such a great idea. However, how bad an idea is likely to be known soon. So far Japanese authorities seem confident that the containment building will be the big problem, not a Chernobyl type problem. Given the catastrophe they are operating under, if they are correct, I expect nuclear power will become more prevalent not less, outside of earthquake zones.


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## Annie (Mar 12, 2011)

Annie said:


> editec said:
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> > Big Fitz said:
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A bit of 'good' news? 

Radiation down at Japan nuke plant after blast - Yahoo! News



> Radiation down at Japan nuke plant after blast
> By YURI KAGEYAMA, Associated Press Yuri Kageyama, Associated Press 32 mins ago
> 
> TOKYO  Japan's government spokesman says the metal container sheltering a nuclear reactor was not affected by an explosion that destroyed the building it's in.
> ...


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## Ravi (Mar 12, 2011)

Big Fitz said:


> The freezniks are going to come out of their mommie's closet that they've been in since the 1980's claiming that nuclear power (once the salvation of mankind) will kill us all... again.
> 
> A freak disaster and suddenly, it's Malthusian Time!  Break out the Pinwheels, Mirrors and Moonshine!  It's time to wear hemp and live in grass huts while hunting and gathering again.


That's always a possibility...and if the worst happens, who could blame them?

But supposedly Japan has the most stringent regulations of anyone regarding reactors so let us all hope they are stringent enough.

This kind of reminds me of a Godzilla movie...evacuating people in a 12 mile radius...it is also kind of ironic that the Japanese have reactors, considering.


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## Mini 14 (Mar 12, 2011)

Annie said:


> A bit of 'good' news?



I hope so, but I'm more inclined to think it is a false positive, or a logistical abnormality. 

That wasn't a small explosion. And it appeared to come with no warning at all.

But I will say this.....

If this plant comes through this without releasing a major amount of radiation through a period of almost complete blackout, logistical paralysis, and total isolation, we need to build these things on every street corner we can find.

I'm more inclined to think the situation is much worse than they are letting on. And I can understand why they would try to keep it quiet at this time. Once their infrastructures have recovered sufficiently, I suspect the story will be different.


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## Ravi (Mar 12, 2011)

Mini 14 said:


> Annie said:
> 
> 
> > A bit of 'good' news?
> ...


Sure...if we use the same stringent regulations and safety checks.


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## Mini 14 (Mar 12, 2011)

Ravi said:


> Mini 14 said:
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> > Annie said:
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Agreed. 

But I don't think we should get our hopes up, just yet. As I've said, I think the real story is being muted, understandably, right now (at least to those of us in the "general public).

I don't think it is possible we have misjudged the effects of a meltdown for 50 years now. But if we have, then we should take the Japanese program and build these things everywhere there is a vacant lot.


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## Annie (Mar 12, 2011)

Ravi said:


> Mini 14 said:
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> > Annie said:
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Have you visited a nuclear power plant? I have. If these reactors get through a 8.9 earthquake and a tsunami that combined to basically bring down communications, power, etc., with minimal problems-and yes, losing the building surrounding the containment area would be minimal, then the safeguards did what they were meant to do. Ours are basically along the same lines, design wise. We just don't have any new ones, not allowed to build them.


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## Mini 14 (Mar 12, 2011)

I take it they have not restored the cooling systems yet? Does anyone know?


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## Annie (Mar 12, 2011)

Mini 14 said:


> I take it they have not restored the cooling systems yet? Does anyone know?



From what I'm reading and understanding, emphasis on the second as a matter of warning; no, they've not stopped the heating, but seems they have contained the problem within the building. As you said, we'll know more soon. Even those islands are not insulated, remember that I believe it was the Swiss that picked up the radiation levels  with Chernobyl, not the USSR.


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## KissMy (Mar 12, 2011)

Radiation leaking from Japan's quake-hit nuclear - Reuters


> Radiation leaked from a damaged Japanese nuclear reactor on Saturday after an explosion blew the roof off in the wake of a massive earthquake, but the government insisted that radiation levels were low.
> 
> The blast raised fears of a meltdown at the facility north of Tokyo as officials scrambled to contain what could be the worst nuclear disaster since the Chernobyl explosion in 1986 that shocked the world.


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## Mini 14 (Mar 12, 2011)

Annie said:


> Mini 14 said:
> 
> 
> > I take it they have not restored the cooling systems yet? Does anyone know?
> ...



Yeah, that's what concerns me.....that the decreases they are measuring are anomalies created by the mechanics of the explosion. While it is a scary, and risky proposal, I can also understand where it might be safer to hide the actual situation from the local population right now. I would think that the true story is being shared with foreign governments a little more openly.

As I said yesterday morning, we are VERY lucky that this hit Japan. They are as prepared and capable of dealing with it as any nation on Earth, probably more so. Imagine if it had been focused on North Korea, or Mexico.


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## Ravi (Mar 12, 2011)

Or California?

And no, they haven't fixed the cooling systems, yet.

Japanese official says pumping system caused nuclear plant blast - CNN.com


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## martybegan (Mar 12, 2011)

Annie said:


> editec said:
> 
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> > Big Fitz said:
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The problem is that a whole lot of the world is in an Earthquake prevalent zone, plus the determination of what areas are prone to earthquakes is part science and part guesswork. 

The problem they have is more of a Three Mile Island problem, not a chernobyl problem, as the primary safety mechanism, a SCRAM when the earthquake hit, worked just fine. 

If the core issue is the lack of auxillary power, as the plant is on the coast, my bet is that the tsunami probably damaged the diesel generators, not the original earthquake itself.

They other key difference between this and chernobyl is the time factor, here at least the staff has time to figure out what to do. also note the precautions the authorites are takingm as opposed to the soviets, who ignored it for as long as possible.

My word of advice is to take caution with what you hear in the media. The need for NOW NOW NOW news can lead to misleading information, and outright falsehoods.


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## Annie (Mar 12, 2011)

Mini 14 said:


> I take it they have not restored the cooling systems yet? Does anyone know?



Maybe they have:

Residents near nuclear plant told to evacuate - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)



> Residents near nuclear plant told to evacuate
> 
> Updated Sat Mar 12, 2011 12:32am AEDT
> Japan's Fukushima Daiichi nuclear plant
> ...


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## editec (Mar 12, 2011)

Just heard on NPR.

AT least one of the reactors has leaked radioactive material.

Authorities say its no big deal...yet.


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## Mini 14 (Mar 12, 2011)

Japan now passing out iodine, which is apparently an indication that there has been a radiation leak.


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## Annie (Mar 12, 2011)

Mini 14 said:


> Japan now passing out iodine, which is apparently an indication that there has been a radiation leak.



They probably should. They know there has been some release:

UPDATE 1-Japan may hand out iodine near nuclear plants-IAEA | Reuters



> Iodone can be used to protect against radioactive exposure
> 
> * Japan told IAEA it is checking condition of reactor core
> 
> ...


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## Old Rocks (Mar 12, 2011)

Cesium detected. Not at all a good sign.


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## Zoom-boing (Mar 12, 2011)

> I worked as an investigator for the Presidential Commission on the Accident at Three Mile Island, 32 years ago, and a few months studying the plumbing TMIs Unit 2, which is actually younger than the errant Japanese reactor, gives me a very healthy respect for the danger in Japan.
> 
> 
> That Japanese reactor shut down automatically within seconds of the earthquake, the idea being that dropping the thermal load (stopping the nuclear reaction and cooling-down the reactor) would minimize risk overall from a huge plumbing system that was likely compromised and vulnerable. Radiation and the passage of time conspire to make pipes brittle and aftershocks make brittle pipes break. Not good.
> ...



I, Cringely » Blog Archive » Flea powder may be saving lives in Japan - Cringely on technology


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## Big Fitz (Mar 12, 2011)

editec said:


> Big Fitz said:
> 
> 
> > The freezniks are going to come out of their mommie's closet that they've been in since the 1980's claiming that nuclear power (once the salvation of mankind) will kill us all... again.
> ...


yes yes... not a freak disaster.  9.1 earthquakes, plus tsunamis and dozens of aftershocks that are solid earthquakes unto themselves happen every few months.

No, this was a FREAK OCCURRENCE.  Those plants have survived hundreds if not thousands of earthquakes already.  That being said, this is a horrible accident that will have big repercussions on Japanese infrastructure and economy (positive and negative).  Now that the windows are smashed people can be hired to fix them.


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## boedicca (Mar 12, 2011)

Baruch Menachem said:


> They are probably having a water leak, not a meltdown.   Water is only used for heat exchange, not for reactor control
> 
> That said, a major water leak from one of those places is not a good thing.  The water from one of these places is very poisonous.
> 
> ...




This is an important distinction.

Chernobyl had graphite as a neutron moderator - the Japanese reactors use water.

Graphite burns, which is why the Chernobyl nuclear radiation spread over thousands of miles.     The water version may melt, but it won't spread like that.


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## martybegan (Mar 12, 2011)

Big Fitz said:


> editec said:
> 
> 
> > Big Fitz said:
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Its accidents like this that lead to further development of safety systems in any industrial/power generating situation. Just look at the airline industry as an example. All the safety systems and improvements in reliability did not just come out of nowhere, they are the morbid byproduct of system failures, that once analyzed, led to further refinement of both procedures and equipment. 

Now, I know a nulcear power plant is a more challenging system, as any major catastrophe has results far beyond those of hundred of airline crashes, but the same rules apply. The designers and regulators try to think of every scenairo that could cause an issue, and try to engineer a solution to the issue.

It took a massive 8.9 (7th largest earthquake ever) earthquake, coupled with a 30 ft high tsunami to penetrate the safety shell surrounding these systems, and they have, as of yet, not failed completely. The key event was that the SCRAM's all worked, at least shutting down the reactors from power generation level, to standby. 

The Japanese government is responding correctly, in the face of one of the greatest natural tradgedies they have ever faced. Even if the evacuations prove unwarranted, they are erring on the side of caution, and doing it while large parts of thier country are in shambles.


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## Ravi (Mar 12, 2011)

I think some of you are being silly to pretend the nuke problem is a "natural" tragedy...that is like blaming nature for wiping out your house that you choose to build on a river.


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## martybegan (Mar 12, 2011)

Ravi said:


> I think some of you are being silly to pretend the nuke problem is a "natural" tragedy...that is like blaming nature for wiping out your house that you choose to build on a river.



A natural disaster is the root cause of the problems, and in your second example it is still a natural event that caused the event. Leave it to the lawyers the wisdom of building on a river bank. 

Chernobyl and TMI were not natural events in any way, shape or form. The problems at the Japanese reactors were caused by the effects of an earthquake, which, unless i forgot to power down the earthquake-o-tron9000 in my basement, is a natural disaster. 

No earthquake, no tsunami, no current plant failure.


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## Big Fitz (Mar 12, 2011)

Ravi said:


> I think some of you are being silly to pretend the nuke problem is a "natural" tragedy...that is like blaming nature for wiping out your house that you choose to build on a river.


That's a gross oversimplification.  It's more like losing your house on the shores of the river after you've built it in such a way to survive a 100 year flood... and then a 500 year flood comes around and only damages it partly.

It's a tragedy, yes.  Your family's home got ruined in part and Servpros are going to be out there fixing a lot of damage that can be fixed.  But that doesn't change the fact you took every precaution you thought necessary to deal with the crisis and probably were mocked for overbuilding by people who's houses now washed away.

So I have to reject your base premise.


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## Ravi (Mar 12, 2011)

martybegan said:


> Ravi said:
> 
> 
> > I think some of you are being silly to pretend the nuke problem is a "natural" tragedy...that is like blaming nature for wiping out your house that you choose to build on a river.
> ...


 No nuclear plant in an earthquake zone, no nuclear emergency.

Keep pretending otherwise as you seem intent on doing so.


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## martybegan (Mar 12, 2011)

Just saw a video of the explosion in one of the ancillary systems that happened just recently.

Yikes. 

I'm a ChemE, so Electrical isnt my specialty, but could that be the result of a substation or transformer blowing?  If its related to the backup pumps, it could also be one of the diesel generators blowing up. In any event, wow, that sucks. Hopefully they have more backups.


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## Ravi (Mar 12, 2011)

Big Fitz said:


> Ravi said:
> 
> 
> > I think some of you are being silly to pretend the nuke problem is a "natural" tragedy...that is like blaming nature for wiping out your house that you choose to build on a river.
> ...


There is no failsafe precaution one can take to protect a house built on a river but one: not building on the river.


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## dilloduck (Mar 12, 2011)

Ravi said:


> Big Fitz said:
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> > Ravi said:
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And don't build by trees---one could fall on your house.
Nature can be brutal. Where are you going to build your house to be "safe" ?


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## Mad Scientist (Mar 12, 2011)

The entire country of Japan is a volcanic island so there really isn't any "safe and stable" place to build *anything*.


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## martybegan (Mar 12, 2011)

dilloduck said:


> Ravi said:
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> > Big Fitz said:
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You build it at an elevation above the 100 year flood level, or build it like one guy did, with his 1st floor basically being a flow through chamber made of concrete, with all his furnishings 10 feet up. 

If people want to live in a risk free environment, i suggest, um, wait, I cant suggest anything.


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## whitehall (Mar 12, 2011)

The AP headline on Yahoo today is worded to make it appear that there was an explosion at the nuclear plant before the earthquake. The subtle intent is to cast doubt on nuclear power which ties into the Obama/green revolutionary movement.


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## dilloduck (Mar 12, 2011)

whitehall said:


> The AP headline on Yahoo today is worded to make it appear that there was an explosion at the nuclear plant before the earthquake. The subtle intent is to cast doubt on nuclear power which ties into the Obama/green revolutionary movement.



Watching the news yesterday made it apparent to me that the newscasters were dying to portray the problems at the nuclear plant as catastophic as they possibly could. They even ignored the "experts" that came on and minimized the dangers of a meltdown. A ratings ploy or an attempt to demonize nuclear power--or both.


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## martybegan (Mar 12, 2011)

dilloduck said:


> whitehall said:
> 
> 
> > The AP headline on Yahoo today is worded to make it appear that there was an explosion at the nuclear plant before the earthquake. The subtle intent is to cast doubt on nuclear power which ties into the Obama/green revolutionary movement.
> ...



I usually like to go by the saying "never attribute to malice, that which can be explained by stupidity."  We are talking about journalists. They may be intelligent people, but they are not (mostly) scientists or engineers. They also feel the need to sensationalize ANYTHING, and to do it as quickly as possible. 

This error is compounded by the simple fact that people who have a problem with "item X" are usually far more vocal, and by this accessable than those who support "Item X". this leads to, during a cruch, the producers reaching out to an expert in the field in question often getting through to a person who could be against the technology in question. In this case getting nuclear "experts" who are in fact, against the use of nuclear power.


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## dilloduck (Mar 12, 2011)

martybegan said:


> dilloduck said:
> 
> 
> > whitehall said:
> ...



In this case every expert they had on refused to portray the situation as dire and refused to compare it to Chernoble or TMI. It didn't slow them down a bit.


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## rdean (Mar 12, 2011)

Annie said:


> editec said:
> 
> 
> > Big Fitz said:
> ...



I hope so.  The only thing that really keeps the US dependent on anything foreign is "foreign oil".  Some Democrats and all Republicans work to keep it that way.  

The US is nearly pristine compared to the rest of the world.  We can thank liberals and their "clean air" and "clean water" and all the other regulations and laws and campaigns that keep this country beautiful.

Stop this crazy outflow of money to oil countries and there is nothing this country can't do.

Building safe nuclear power plants in this country will take scientists and engineers, that means education and money spent on infrastructure.  Republicans will make sure that won't happen.  They are already waging a "war on eduction".  For some reason, Republicans want to take us back to a more "primitive" time before technology.  They want us dependent on foreigners who only want to squeeze this country for all it's worth.  It's why they must be defeated.


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## martybegan (Mar 12, 2011)

rdean said:


> Annie said:
> 
> 
> > editec said:
> ...



Wasn't it Nixon who signed the EPA into existance? he want a liberal, he was a pragmatist. 

The other advantage we have is realtively low population concentration. 

I agree with alot of the environmental regulations out there, however, the liberals in the past have done thier job, the liberals of today are trying to bastardize the regulations that were set up, using them to eliminate industries they dont like, rather than regulate them in a way that minimizes thier impact.


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## skookerasbil (Mar 12, 2011)

rdean said:


> Annie said:
> 
> 
> > editec said:
> ...







Ive heard of board members being dropped on their heads at birth but this knothead clearly has a plate in his head!!!


s0n........you dont know shit about shit but I'll give you this. You're were born to propagandize!!!


and ps........your way of thinking has been kicked squarely in the balls in the past 18 months in this country!!!! Do I need to post the election map s0n??? It is people who think like me, West, Polar and Ian that are defeating!!!


That you have no recognition of that indicates............PLATE


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## Big Fitz (Mar 12, 2011)

whitehall said:


> The AP headline on Yahoo today is worded to make it appear that there was an explosion at the nuclear plant before the earthquake. The subtle intent is to cast doubt on nuclear power which ties into the Obama/green revolutionary movement.


What'd I tell you about the freezniks coming back out of the closet to try and destroy Nuclear power again?  They want to divorce it from their green salvations of pinwheels mirrors and moonshine.


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## bigrebnc1775 (Mar 12, 2011)

The Sakurajima volcano, in Southern Japan, erupted early Tuesday morning, spewing out lava and a thick plume of black smoke into the air. (March 10)


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## martybegan (Mar 12, 2011)

dilloduck said:


> martybegan said:
> 
> 
> > dilloduck said:
> ...



I actually think this sounds very similar to TMI. You have a loss of coolant situation. however the big difference is that here the Japanese Engineers know they are having coolant issues, where, I think, at TMI the Engineers thought they had enough coolant when they actually didnt. 

We will have to wait for the after accident report to determine the comparisons to TMI. The big difference is that, again, the Japanese operators knew right away they had a problem, the TMI engineers didnt until they had a partial core melt already on thier hands.


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## rdean (Mar 12, 2011)

martybegan said:


> rdean said:
> 
> 
> > Annie said:
> ...



How can you make such a broad statement without a single example?  Besides, there are no "regulations" that a conservative will agree with.  Look at what they have done to OSHA and the EPA and Wall Street.


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## Mini 14 (Mar 12, 2011)

Japanese government saying 190 reported cases of radiation poisoning now.

They are "dumping seawater" on the core to try and cool it.


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## Mad Scientist (Mar 12, 2011)

rdean said:


> martybegan said:
> 
> 
> > rdean said:
> ...


Looks like rdean has found his doppelganger.


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## martybegan (Mar 12, 2011)

rdean said:


> martybegan said:
> 
> 
> > rdean said:
> ...



It just a broad as your original statement saying liberals were responsible for our pristine abe beautiful country. One shouldnt use more significant figures than provided by the original data. You didnt provide any examples either. 

I consider myself conservative, and I agree with alot of OSHA and EPA regs. What I do not agree with is how the organziations have been perverted from thier original goals to basically lawsuit generating plants, with the rules no longer written by engineers and scientists  to protect things, but instead by lawyers and burecrats to create lawsuits and endless regulations that do nothing but add paperwork.


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## Big Fitz (Mar 12, 2011)

Mini 14 said:


> Japanese government saying 190 reported cases of radiation poisoning now.
> 
> They are "dumping seawater" on the core to try and cool it.


As sad as that is, it's a darn sight better than what it COULD have been.  I think the Japanese government should be commended for doing as well as it has under the circumstances.  Culturally, they've a long history of doing well recovering from disasters, both manmade and natural.  From the original Kamikaze to nuclear infernos.


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## Ravi (Mar 12, 2011)

Mad Scientist said:


> The entire country of Japan is a volcanic island so there really isn't any "safe and stable" place to build *anything*.


Especially a nuclear reactor.


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## dilloduck (Mar 12, 2011)

There doesn't seem to a big looting problem either.  Odd.


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## Mini 14 (Mar 12, 2011)

Big Fitz said:


> Mini 14 said:
> 
> 
> > Japanese government saying 190 reported cases of radiation poisoning now.
> ...



Agreed, but I temper all that with the observation that it is VERY early on, so the 190 number (if confirmed) is scary as hell.

I've said it 3 or 4 times now, but it still sounds wierd:

We are VERY lucky this happened in Japan, and not elsewhere.

I have no doubt at all that Japan will recover very quickly.


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## Ravi (Mar 12, 2011)

Mini 14 said:


> Japanese government saying 190 reported cases of radiation poisoning now.
> 
> They are "dumping seawater" on the core to try and cool it.


 I thought they said there were no leaks...how did anyone get radiation poisoning?


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## Mini 14 (Mar 12, 2011)

dilloduck said:


> There doesn't seem to a big looting problem either.  Odd.





And there will not be.


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## Mini 14 (Mar 12, 2011)

Ravi said:


> Mini 14 said:
> 
> 
> > Japanese government saying 190 reported cases of radiation poisoning now.
> ...



There are leaks. One confirmed, one suspected, 3 other reactors being examined, but damaged.

I suspect the one (Fukiyami?) is going to melt down. That is the one they are fighting to stay ahead of.


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## Douger (Mar 12, 2011)

Mini 14 said:


> dilloduck said:
> 
> 
> > There doesn't seem to a big looting problem either.  Odd.
> ...


At least not until murka sends in some bands of camouflaged orangutans, anyhoo


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## Ravi (Mar 12, 2011)

How far could the radiation drift and still be deadly?


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## dilloduck (Mar 12, 2011)

Ravi said:


> How far could the radiation drift and still be deadly?



If you built your house on the same planet as Japan you could be in trouble.


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## Mini 14 (Mar 12, 2011)

Ravi said:


> How far could the radiation drift and still be deadly?



I don't know, but the good news there is that the one they are most concerned with is the one on the coast, and the prevailing winds blow toward the water.


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## Douger (Mar 12, 2011)

martybegan said:


> dilloduck said:
> 
> 
> > Ravi said:
> ...


My old beach house.


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## martybegan (Mar 12, 2011)

Mini 14 said:


> Ravi said:
> 
> 
> > How far could the radiation drift and still be deadly?
> ...



I dont think anyone really knows. The problem is that we keep getting bombarded with information, alot of it contradictory. i've read stories that range from the concrete contaiment building being the source of the exploision that happened recently, to the building AROUND the containment being the source, to some anciallary building near the containments being the source.

The RIGHT NOW news media is not being helpful with this. We dont even know the sources of 90% of the statements being made. 

People have to understand that the only time we will know exactly what happened is after everything is over, and the engineers can go look back and do a failure analysis with hard data. 

I'm actually starting to feel bad about commenting on this, because I dont have all the information, and as an engineer (liscensed) I should know better than making guesses on partial data.


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## Ravi (Mar 12, 2011)

martybegan said:


> Mini 14 said:
> 
> 
> > Ravi said:
> ...


 Maybe you should call for an end to freedom of the press.


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## Mini 14 (Mar 12, 2011)

dilloduck said:


> Ravi said:
> 
> 
> > How far could the radiation drift and still be deadly?
> ...



*GREATEST*

*POST* 

*EVER*

OMG, I am ROLLING here.

The Rep limitations should be lifted for this post alone, as I cannot rep you again!

BEAUTY!!!!


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## martybegan (Mar 12, 2011)

Ravi said:


> martybegan said:
> 
> 
> > Mini 14 said:
> ...



Or just ask the media to verify thier sources before releasing information. 

Ah, argumentum ad absurdium, my favorite logical fallacy.


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## Ravi (Mar 12, 2011)

Mini 14 said:


> dilloduck said:
> 
> 
> > Ravi said:
> ...


It was mildly amusing. But it sure doesn't help make a case to build any more reactors.


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## Mad Scientist (Mar 12, 2011)

Ravi said:


> Mad Scientist said:
> 
> 
> > The entire country of Japan is a volcanic island so there really isn't any "safe and stable" place to build *anything*.
> ...


Right, so therefore, nothing should be built until someone, somewhere, deems it 100% safe right?

Can't take any risks at all no matter what the reward right?


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## Ravi (Mar 12, 2011)

martybegan said:


> Ravi said:
> 
> 
> > martybegan said:
> ...


What do you call your logical fallacy?

As far as I can tell the media is doing a decent job of reporting what is known or what Japanese officials are telling them.

You must be one of the dopes that blames the media for your own rush to judgment.


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## skeptic (Mar 12, 2011)

Ravi said:


> How far could the radiation drift and still be deadly?



at least as far as across the continent. In fact this actually happened and was documented in the US. Folks in a swath across the US were poisoned with radioactive milk following a release of radioactive gas in Hanford WA during WWII. The swath was at least 1500 miles long.


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## Ravi (Mar 12, 2011)

Mad Scientist said:


> Ravi said:
> 
> 
> > Mad Scientist said:
> ...


I didn't say that...you have to weigh the risks before building things that affect innocent lives very carefully.

IMO, building a nuclear reactor on the pacific rim seems retarded.

Building a house on a river does as well...but the house doesn't have the potential to destroy the neighborhood.


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## dilloduck (Mar 12, 2011)

Ravi said:


> Mini 14 said:
> 
> 
> > dilloduck said:
> ...



And the first car accident should have shown us that we shouldn't build anymore cars ?
damn Ravi----can you possibly find a more extreme argument ?


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## skeptic (Mar 12, 2011)

It strikes me as odd that a mere 10 months after the BP "disaster" forced the world to reconsider the risks of deep crust oil extraction a nuclear emergency in Japan threatens to force a reconsideration of our nuclear power platform. 

My heart goes out to the Japanese. Their emergency services are strained to the limit, the nuclear emergency could not have happened at a worse moment. 

Hopefully the seawater/boric acid scheme will work, if not start learning to spell Chernobyl.


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## Ravi (Mar 12, 2011)

dilloduck said:


> Ravi said:
> 
> 
> > Mini 14 said:
> ...


dillo, no offense, but your hyperbole is retarded.


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## martybegan (Mar 12, 2011)

Ravi said:


> martybegan said:
> 
> 
> > Ravi said:
> ...



the logical fallacy you used, agrumentum ad absurdim, or the argument of the extremes means you took my criticism of the current press coverage as a desire to end freedom of the press. Or as an example:

Mike thinks that dogs should be banned from resturants, therefore Mike thinks dogs should be banned from all buildings. 

You take my critique of the newsmedia's desire to get information out as quick as possible, and try to make it seem like I want to end freedom of press. that is the fallacy of the extremes, and is poor form in debate. 

and you ad argumentum ad hominem, by calling me a dope. 

To me, the media is not vetting the information enough prior to reporting it. There is no real need to RIGHT NOW information, unless you are in the exclusion zone.


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## p kirkes (Mar 12, 2011)

As mentioned above the whole planet could be affected from this disaster, especially if the other nuclear plants go KA-BOOM.

If your old enough to remember in the 50's when the nuclear powers were testing their weapons in the open atmosphere, their fallout was descending on Canada and the USA plus a previous release of nuclear gas from a plant in Washington state .  This contaminated the plains/farms/ranches with radioactive particles.  The cows then fed up these grasses  and their milk was full of strontium 90 among other radio active elements.  Then our babies consumed this contaminated milk and were irradiated.  What a scare that was.

Well, we may have a replay, the prevailing winds are from east to west.  

We should be watchful, hopefully the national governments  of the Pacific rim will do extensive testing and track the radiation and radioactive particulates.


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## skeptic (Mar 12, 2011)

http://www.hanfordchallenge.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/Hot-Milk-article.pdf

Hanford Site - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## martybegan (Mar 12, 2011)

skeptic said:


> It strikes me as odd that a mere 10 months after the BP "disaster" forced the world to reconsider the risks of deep crust oil extraction a nuclear emergency in Japan threatens to force a reconsideration of our nuclear power platform.
> 
> My heart goes out to the Japanese. Their emergency services are strained to the limit, the nuclear emergency could not have happened at a worse moment.
> 
> Hopefully the seawater/boric acid scheme will work, if not start learning to spell Chernobyl.



I dont think this could be like chernobyl. There the explosion happened DURING a SCRAM, ( SCRAM that didnt finish due to the reactor starting to tear itself apart prior to SCRAM completion)

You also had a graphite fire a chernobyl which added most of the radioactivity spewed into the atmosphere. The BWR used in Japan doesnt have any graphite.


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## dilloduck (Mar 12, 2011)

Ravi said:


> dilloduck said:
> 
> 
> > Ravi said:
> ...



you can't say ret*rded


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## skeptic (Mar 12, 2011)

martybegan said:


> skeptic said:
> 
> 
> > It strikes me as odd that a mere 10 months after the BP "disaster" forced the world to reconsider the risks of deep crust oil extraction a nuclear emergency in Japan threatens to force a reconsideration of our nuclear power platform.
> ...



I am not a nuclear fissioncist. But I am reading that the risk of a total meltdown and containment vessel breach is real and may occur within hours if last ditch efforts to flood the broken reactor building are not successful. Apparently there is no hope of stopping the reaction, or runaway reaction, except to flood the entire building since most of the equipment was irreparably damaged in last night's explosion.


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## Annie (Mar 12, 2011)

skeptic said:


> martybegan said:
> 
> 
> > skeptic said:
> ...



Every article I read, regardless of scare tactic headlines, says that the experts predict that the systems are working as they should. The containment building housing the core blew, but the core itself and the containing system are holding. There are scads of articles found on google:  japan nuclear reactor - Google Search

many within the last hour.


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## bigrebnc1775 (Mar 12, 2011)

Here's a map of  the projected radiation fallout


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## skeptic (Mar 12, 2011)

Annie said:


> skeptic said:
> 
> 
> > martybegan said:
> ...



I am reading the same news that you are but I see nothing that indicates that the reaction has been cooled, and it makes no difference if the containment vessel is intact if you have a runaway reaction. Without coolant the vessel will melt.


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## Annie (Mar 12, 2011)

bigrebnc1775 said:


> Here's a map of  the projected radiation fallout



While I couldn't get your link from the post, when I went to reply I could copy and paste. 

http://img847.imageshack.us/img847/438/fallout.jpg

Now, is this the predictions IF it were to meltdown and there was no containment? Or is Australia saying this has already occurred?


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## martybegan (Mar 12, 2011)

skeptic said:


> martybegan said:
> 
> 
> > skeptic said:
> ...



There is no runaway reaction, as the criticality was stopped by the SCRAM. the issue is with residual heat. This could result in the melting of the core. The problem becomes the breach of containment, and the resulting release of radioactive gases.

What happened in chernobyl was a release of gasses along with particulates, the particulates resulting from the steam explosion flinging parts of the core into the surrounding area, and the resulting graphite fire. This was the source of the longer lived radionucleotides.

We would need an anlysis of what particles were relased by the gas venting to determine the health effect of the release. If it was mostly particles with very short half lives, then the issue is less than with long half life particles. 

The risk of anything is real, the question becomes is the risk likely.


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## martybegan (Mar 12, 2011)

Annie said:


> bigrebnc1775 said:
> 
> 
> > Here's a map of  the projected radiation fallout
> ...



I am calling bullshit on this map. First of all no one uses RADS anymore. Exposure is measured in rems, or sieverts

Rad (unit) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Second it lists no model used for the air disperal. it also does not give you the assumed particles for the doses given (the obsolete doses, mind you)

Third, why would austrilia be concerned about fallout heading to the US?

Finally, since this is a water reactor, there is a limited amount of solid material that could create "fallout". Chernobyl used solid graphite for neutron moderation, this was the particulate source for the fallout when the reactor blew up and burned.


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## Annie (Mar 12, 2011)

skeptic said:


> Annie said:
> 
> 
> > skeptic said:
> ...



Front page Yahoo:

Blast at Japan nuke plant; thousands missing - Yahoo! News



> Among the most worrying developments was concerns that a nuclear reacter could melt down. Edano said Saturdya's explosion was caused by vented hydrogen gas and destroyed the exterior walls of the building where the reactor is, but not the actual metal housing enveloping the reactor.
> 
> Edano said the radiation around the Fukushima Dai-ichi plant had not risen after the blast, but had in fact decreased.
> 
> ...



Japan earthquake: Officials say nuclear catastrophe averted - CSMonitor.com



> Japan earthquake: Officials say nuclear catastrophe averted
> 
> Fears of a nuclear meltdown in Japan have subsided after a reactor that was damaged in Fridays devastating earthquake reportedly emerged intact from an explosion.
> By Justin McCurry, Correspondent / March 12, 2011
> ...



And one would expect Greenpeace to say something good about a reactor?


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## bigrebnc1775 (Mar 12, 2011)

martybegan said:


> Annie said:
> 
> 
> > bigrebnc1775 said:
> ...



You'recalling bullshit on a link and using wikipedia as a source?


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## martybegan (Mar 12, 2011)

bigrebnc1775 said:


> martybegan said:
> 
> 
> > Annie said:
> ...



Im using it to show the definition of a RAD, for something that simple wiki is perfectly fine. 

You can also look at this document from the CDC, using the correct units, and stating that RAD has been replaced. 

http://www.bt.cdc.gov/radiation/pdf/measurement.pdf

A true radition release chart would show the amount released in curies most likely.


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## skeptic (Mar 12, 2011)

ANNIE, I just checked google news and every third article says that the disaster is not averted, merely that the immediate risk of the explosion is averted. 

Meanwhile three plants are widening evacuation perimeters. Two plants still have no cooling, the japanese nuclear oversight committee says one reactor has a breach in the containment vessel leaking cesium and iodine and the risk of a meltdown is still real. In fact some article say it is happening now. 

The attempt to use saltwater as a last resort to cool the reactors is telling because the plants will have to be decommissioned due to corrosion once the reaction is halted. 

The news is mostly served to avoid panic.


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## martybegan (Mar 12, 2011)

skeptic said:


> ANNIE, I just checked google news and every third article says that the disaster is not averted, merely that the immediate risk of the explosion is averted.
> 
> Meanwhile three plants are widening evacuation perimeters. Two plants still have no cooling, the japanese nuclear oversight committee says one reactor has a breach in the containment vessel leaking cesium and iodine and the risk of a meltdown is still real. In fact some article say it is happening now.
> 
> ...



The use of seawater would indeed require these units to be decomissioned. Seawater is incredibly corrosive, especially when elevated in temperature like this. 

This, if true, would indicate that they have basically given up efforts to maintain the reactors in some sort of working order for future repair or use. 

If you look at the wikipedia article, it appears that the units in question were due for decommissioning anyway, with replacement by more modern units. It is yet to be seen if these units will now be placed into service. I would think they would, with added saftey features learned from this event.


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## skeptic (Mar 12, 2011)

> If you look at the wikipedia article, it appears that the units in question were due for decommissioning anyway, with replacement by more modern units. It is yet to be seen if these units will now be placed into service. I would think they would, with added saftey features learned from this event.



Pebble bed or bust. I keep hearing the word "fuel rod" and every time I do I wonder how old this technology is. If these are 30 year old reactors they need to be replaced. 

We are still operating most of our 30yo reactors even tho they have exceeded their designed lifespan. Which is the definition of an accident waiting to happen.

Pebble bed seems like a reasonably safe/dangerous platform. There are still issues, but runaway reactions can't occur. 

If we are gonna rely on nuclear power we need to upgrade.


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## Big Fitz (Mar 12, 2011)

Mad Scientist said:


> Ravi said:
> 
> 
> > Mad Scientist said:
> ...


Actually, it's both a volcanic island and upward thrust of tectonic plates much like the Northern West Coast of North America is.  The plate is subducted under Japan a few hundred miles off coast and Japan is the leading edge that sticks out over the subducted plate.  All that remelted rock then flows up in giant tubes for magma to flow and burst out onto the surface based on planetary centrifugal force and specific density of the material melted being less dense than what is beneath it.  

But again, you want to live in a 100% safe world, or do you want to live in reality.  The twain shall not meet, and the world's not leaving.


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## Big Fitz (Mar 12, 2011)

martybegan said:


> skeptic said:
> 
> 
> > It strikes me as odd that a mere 10 months after the BP "disaster" forced the world to reconsider the risks of deep crust oil extraction a nuclear emergency in Japan threatens to force a reconsideration of our nuclear power platform.
> ...


Gotta love them sodium cooled reactors and half-assed construction.


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## Big Fitz (Mar 12, 2011)

> Front page Yahoo:
> 
> Blast  at Japan nuke plant; thousands missing - Yahoo! News



Love the headline.  They make it look like the blast is directly related to the missing people.  Assholes.


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## Big Fitz (Mar 12, 2011)

skeptic said:


> > If you look at the wikipedia article, it appears that the units in question were due for decommissioning anyway, with replacement by more modern units. It is yet to be seen if these units will now be placed into service. I would think they would, with added saftey features learned from this event.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It's just modifications to the original design methodology created during the Manhattan Project.

Yes, every nuclear plant needs an upgrade.  Now, if we can move the Freeznik econazis out of the way, we can get to that post haste and save this nation's energy grid before we fall apart.


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## Annie (Mar 12, 2011)

martybegan said:


> skeptic said:
> 
> 
> > ANNIE, I just checked google news and every third article says that the disaster is not averted, merely that the immediate risk of the explosion is averted.
> ...



Ya think? Let's see, the containment building blown. Some leakage. Going to need to start over, in the meantime, let's keep the damage to minimum. 

Sounds right to me.


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## martybegan (Mar 12, 2011)

Big Fitz said:


> martybegan said:
> 
> 
> > skeptic said:
> ...



I think the RBMK reactor still used water for cooling, it just used graphite for neutron moderation. 

RBMK - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## Ravi (Mar 12, 2011)

Big Fitz said:


> > Front page Yahoo:
> >
> > Blast  at Japan nuke plant; thousands missing - Yahoo! News
> 
> ...


Yeah...I guess, if you don't understand what a semi-colon is...they really should make an effort to dumb down the news.


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## Big Fitz (Mar 12, 2011)

Ravi said:


> Big Fitz said:
> 
> 
> > > Front page Yahoo:
> ...


Need a Midol?  Or are we just snapping at anyone nowadays?  I made an accurate statement.  If you skimmed the article, it very much looks contextually like the blast caused 1000's of people to go missing.  Just because you know the context does not change the misleading aspect of the article's title.


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## Ravi (Mar 12, 2011)

I clicked on your link, Fitzie, and the headline was this:

*For battered Japan, a new threat: nuclear meltdown*



Maybe YOU need a midol, not me?


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## Big Fitz (Mar 12, 2011)

Ravi said:


> I clicked on your link, Fitzie, and the headline was this:
> 
> *For battered Japan, a new threat: nuclear meltdown*
> 
> ...


was someone elses link I quoted.

I'm not the one snapping at fingers here like I've been watching you in other threads.

Have a drink, relax, pop a midol and stay away from people for a few days maybe?

Don't worry about me.  I can condescend with the best of them.


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## rdean (Mar 12, 2011)

martybegan said:


> rdean said:
> 
> 
> > martybegan said:
> ...



Still no example.

Besides, right wingers have no respect for "engineers and scientists" if the right wingers on the USMB are any indication, and they are.

Scientists: Bush Distorts Science

The Union of Concerned Scientists, an independent organization, also issued a 37-page report, "Scientific Integrity in Policymaking," detailing the accusations. The statement and the report both accuse the Bush administration of distorting and suppressing findings that contradict administration policies, stacking panels with like-minded and underqualified scientists with ties to industry, and eliminating some advisory committees altogether.

Culture: Scientists and Bush administration at odds - US News and World Report

Bush administration accused of doctoring scientists' reports | Environment | The Guardian

===========================

How many USMB members have said similar statements to:  Education is just a piece of paper, scientists sit back and collect government money for doing nothing, people that are over educated have no common sense, liberals have taken over science and that's why there are no more inventions and discoveries, and on and on.  The "anti science" comments are endless.

And still, right wingers insist more than 6% of scientists are Republican.  I'm sure it's less.


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## polarbear (Mar 12, 2011)

Mini 14 said:


> They have completely lost the cooling towers. Unable to stop the heating now.
> 
> Evacuated to a radius of 10 miles, and expanding as fast as they can.
> 
> It isn't good.



All this reactor melt down  hype is going to look in a few days from now just as stupid as the 10 meter tsunami which was supposed to annihilate the west coast.

Reactors that could "melt down" have been de-comissioned for over 30 Years or have been updated to use a sub critical mass fuel, just like this one @ Fukushima Daiichi
Most of You don`t even know the difference between weapons grade an fuel grade fission fuel....and believe there might even be a "nuclear explosion".
But You`re all instant "Wikipedia Experts"...* man all these Internet forums are pathetic, this one is no exception after a*ll!

I don`t know what kind of garbage news sources You guys read and quote. That crap is no better than reading the "national Enquirer".

Cooling is not even a do or die situation with these types of reactors, it just speed the fuel cooling process up which would proceed without it also, only slower than desired!

Just form where do You guys get all these fair tales from how a modern reactor works?

Here read something not as retarded as this "Green Peace"-"Sierra Club"-"Al Gore Global warming"..."Yahoo News"...etc etc crap.. :

BBC News - Uncertainty surrounds Japan's nuclear picture

Of course next Month when it`s all in the past and the world did not end, none of You want to be reminded of the absolutely ridiculous  statement so many of you are making here today


----------



## skeptic (Mar 12, 2011)

There are now 6 plants that have lost cooling capacity.



> Reactors that could "melt down" have been de-comissioned for over 30 Years or have been updated to use a sub critical mass fuel, just like this one @ Fukushima Daiichi
> Most of You don`t even know the difference between weapons grade an fuel grade fission fuel....



And yet scores of experts ranging from the IAEA to specialists in the US and Japanese nuclear energy industry are currently not sure whether a meltdown has already occurred in the very plant you mention.

Here are a few thousand articles that just don't agree with you:  Meltdown - Google News


----------



## skookerasbil (Mar 12, 2011)

polarbear said:


> Mini 14 said:
> 
> 
> > They have completely lost the cooling towers. Unable to stop the heating now.
> ...





Polar........you should know by now..........the k00ks on the board would gladly buy a bag of dog doo for $1,000 if it was packaged just right. If its hysterical..............they buy.


Just take a gandor over and check out the total post counts of idiots like Ravi, Rightwinger and Dean. Now tell me these people have any social connections beyond their PC.. And you wonder why they are fcukking k00ks??


----------



## Ravi (Mar 12, 2011)

Big Fitz said:


> Ravi said:
> 
> 
> > I clicked on your link, Fitzie, and the headline was this:
> ...


Yeah, I've noticed. Pretty soon I'm going to start negging you for hating on women. Which is kind of sad.

Regardless, your linky poo did not back you up.


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## Mini 14 (Mar 12, 2011)

polarbear said:


> Mini 14 said:
> 
> 
> > They have completely lost the cooling towers. Unable to stop the heating now.
> ...



Polar, please expound. I've always found your knowledge of Science to be dead on, and I admitted, I'm no expert on nuclear power.

The original post was early this morning, and I was relaying what was being broadcast on the news (CNN and Fox). The Japs were pretty worked up over it, and seem to still be.

What's the rub?

TIA


----------



## Big Fitz (Mar 12, 2011)

Ravi said:


> Big Fitz said:
> 
> 
> > Ravi said:
> ...


yeah, negging people when your rep is turned off.  Coward.  And I'm not hating on women... just you.  Just a personal touch to let you know I care.


----------



## waltky (Mar 12, 2011)

Sky ain't fallin' after all...

*Japan earthquake: Officials say nuclear catastrophe averted*
_March 12, 2011 - Fears of a nuclear meltdown in Japan have subsided after a reactor that was damaged in Fridays devastating earthquake reportedly emerged intact from an explosion._


> A day after the country was thrown into chaos by a fierce tsunami triggered by the largest earthquake in Japans history, the country was, for a few terrifying hours, bracing itself for a possible nuclear catastrophe.  Television cameras captured the moment that smoke poured from what at first appeared to be one of four reactors at the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear plant, located 150 miles north of Tokyo.
> 
> After a few nerve-wracking hours, however, the government and the plants operator, Tokyo Electric Power, said the damage had been confined to the walls and roof surrounding the reactor, sparing its metal casing.  The chief cabinet secretary, Yukio Edano, told a televised press conference that radiation around the plant had, in fact, started to decrease.
> 
> ...



See also:

*Reports: 9,500 Missing in Japan Coastal Town*
_Mar 12, 2011 - As emergency responders made their way today into the hardest-hit coastal villages of Japan, the country's Kyodo News Agency reports that 9,500 people are unaccounted for in Minamisanriku -- roughly half the town's population._


> The town, located along the Pacific Ocean on the northeast coast of Japan, has a population of 17,000 residents.  Japan Self-Defense Forces are trying to help local authorities find residents, Japanese public broadcasting station NHK reported. So far, they've only been able to confirm that about 7,500 residents were successfully evacuated to dozens of shelters after the massive earthquake and tsunami, NHK reported.
> 
> Even before rescuers reached the hardest-hit areas, NHK reported stories of devastation from the towns and villages along Japan's northeastern coast affected by the quake and its aftershocks.  In Sendai, the largest nearby city, police said between 200 and 300 bodies were found along the coast. Many more are believed to have been buried in the rubble or washed out with the waves.
> 
> ...


----------



## skeptic (Mar 12, 2011)

> *Partial meltdown likely under way at power plant, Japanese official says*
> 
> _By Steven Mufson
> Washington Post Staff Writer
> ...


_

This has been reported all day long by hundreds and hundreds of media sources. I can't believe ya'll are so resistant to finding it.




			Tokyo Electric said it had also vented or planned to vent steam and gas containing small amounts of radioactivity from seven of its reactor units. The company said that one employee, who had been working inside a reactor building, had been hospitalized for radiation exposure.

While Japanese authorities tried to calm citizens, they also began evacuating more than 200,000 residents from a 12.5-mile radius around two nuclear power complexes, made preparations to distribute potassium iodide pills, and warned people in the vicinity to stay inside and cover their mouths if they ventured outdoors. Federal safety agency officials said that as many as 160 people had been exposed to radiation from the plants.

*"Only the gravest danger would justify an evacuation at such a moment," said Peter Bradford, a former commissioner at the U.S. Nuclear Regulatory Commission.*

Click to expand...





*Fukushima Daiichi Unit 1 is one of the oldest operating nuclear plants in Japan, turning 40 years old on March 26. NISA, the country's regulatory authority for the sector, licenses reactors to operate for 40 years - meaning that Unit 1 was scheduled to be taken offline this month. It is unclear whether NISA had planned to extend the reactor's license.

There are 23 reactors in the United States with the same design as Fukushima Daiichi Unit 1.*

Experts said that the decision to pump seawater into the unit was a recognition that the elaborate system of valves, pumps and pipes, and the layers of steel and concrete, *might not be enough to guarantee that the nuclear facility could avoid a disaster of Chernobyl proportions.*

The water and boric acid would absorb neutrons, Tokyo Electric said. But experts said it would also make it unlikely that the plant would operate again.
		
Click to expand...


Partial meltdown likely under way at power plant, Japanese official says_


----------



## dilloduck (Mar 12, 2011)

skeptic said:


> > *Partial meltdown likely under way at power plant, Japanese official says*
> >
> > _By Steven Mufson
> > Washington Post Staff Writer
> ...


_

So do we run or what ?_


----------



## Mini 14 (Mar 12, 2011)

dilloduck said:


> So do we run or what ?



I don't know either.

I just bought some silver on line and poured myself some bourbon.

I'm hoping that stops it.


----------



## skeptic (Mar 12, 2011)

dilloduck said:


> So do we run or what ?



if you are in the effected prefecta you run.

They have already evacuated 200,000 people in the midst of a vast national emergency. Does that sound like they are just being cautious?


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## dilloduck (Mar 12, 2011)

Mini 14 said:


> dilloduck said:
> 
> 
> > So do we run or what ?
> ...



we could get shit faced and argue the technical terms of a "meltdown" until you passed out and then I'd swipe your silver !


----------



## skeptic (Mar 12, 2011)

This series of coolant failures will have the same chilling effect on nuclear power as the BP Macondo spill had on deep water drilling. 

The US halted nuclear electrical generation construction after the 3 mile island partial meltdown. 

We are getting backed into a corner.


----------



## skeptic (Mar 12, 2011)

dilloduck said:


> we could get shit faced and argue the technical terms of a "meltdown"  !



My question exactly. What exactly does meltdown mean? Or partial meltdown? Does it mean the fuel rods harmlessly congeal inside the containment vessel, or that the containment vessel melts? Does it mean that a runaway reaction is triggered, or something less dire?

Where does critical mass figure in?


----------



## Mini 14 (Mar 12, 2011)

Am I understanding correctly that a second reactor is now in meltdown, and has been vented to atmosphere?

Anyone else heard this (twitter)


----------



## Big Fitz (Mar 12, 2011)

I wonder if pouring molten lead in there would solve problems if there was a way to get it in there.  

This is just getting worse and worse.  BTW, the explosion it looks like did not damage the reactor container, just the containment building.

Japan to fill leaking nuke reactor with sea water | Energy & Oil | Reuters



> Edano said due to the falling level of cooling water, hydrogen was generated and that leaked to the space between the building and the container and the explosion happened when the hydrogen mixed with oxygen there.



And the death toll from the tsunami and quake has gone far higher than I expected it would.  This truly is a massive tragedy.  I mean the coast of Japan in that area moved 8 FEET!  that's incredible on how freakish this incident was!


----------



## Chris (Mar 12, 2011)

Shirakawa, Japan (CNN) -- Japanese authorities are operating on the presumption that possible meltdowns are under way at two nuclear reactors, a government official said Sunday, adding that there have been no indications yet of hazardous emissions of radioactive material into the atmosphere.

The attempts to avert a possible nuclear crisis, centered around the Fukushima Daiichi facility in northeast Japan, came as rescuers frantically scrambled to find survivors following the country's strongest-ever earthquake and a devastating tsunami that, minutes later, brought crushing walls of water that wiped out nearly everything in their paths.

Chief Cabinet Secretary Yukio Edano told reporters there is a "possibility" of a meltdown at the plant's No. 1 reactor, adding, "It is inside the reactor. We can't see." He then added that authorities are also "assuming the possibility of a meltdown" at the facility's No. 3 reactor.

Japanese authorities rush to save lives, avert nuclear crisis - CNN.com


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## dilloduck (Mar 12, 2011)

skeptic said:


> dilloduck said:
> 
> 
> > So do we run or what ?
> ...



Well since I don't live anywhere near that prefecture what's my best bet ? Climb under my desk ?


----------



## skeptic (Mar 12, 2011)

dilloduck said:


> skeptic said:
> 
> 
> > dilloduck said:
> ...



You will be fine in Kansas. Thank Gawd Japan is an island.

Talk about the worst luck imaginable. Japan could be fucked. They don't have enough land mass to simply write off 5000 square miles of the Ukraine. Japan is like Israel, one nuclear blast wide. 

If shit gets freaky Japan is fucked. On top of already being tsunamied and earthquaked to death.


----------



## Mini 14 (Mar 12, 2011)

Big Fitz said:


> And the death toll from the tsunami and quake has gone far higher than I expected it would.  This truly is a massive tragedy.  I mean the coast of Japan in that area moved 8 FEET!  that's incredible on how freakish this incident was!



If the death toll doesn't go well into the 10s of thousands, I am going to be shocked. And I am not including anything from the nuclear problems.

There are reportedly 97,000 people "missing." Many will just be incommunicado, but still....

Japan has now confirmed "meltdown" (their word, not mine) of first reactor, and "partial meltdown" of second.


----------



## Chris (Mar 12, 2011)

Nuclear power is safe.

Until something goes wrong.


----------



## dilloduck (Mar 12, 2011)

skeptic said:


> dilloduck said:
> 
> 
> > skeptic said:
> ...



I lived on Okinawa and visited the main islands. I loved it and the people were some of the nicest I have ever met. It really is a shame.


----------



## Chris (Mar 12, 2011)

If only Gamera was around to fix the problem...


----------



## Big Fitz (Mar 12, 2011)

dilloduck said:


> skeptic said:
> 
> 
> > dilloduck said:
> ...


Must... lighten.... mood....!


----------



## Big Fitz (Mar 12, 2011)

Chris said:


> If only Gamera was around to fix the problem...
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B-UACM_8q_Q


Oh HELL no!  That's the last thing we need!  

Gojira!


----------



## skeptic (Mar 13, 2011)

Mini 14 said:


> Big Fitz said:
> 
> 
> > And the death toll from the tsunami and quake has gone far higher than I expected it would.  This truly is a massive tragedy.  I mean the coast of Japan in that area moved 8 FEET!  that's incredible on how freakish this incident was!
> ...



That is actually 9500. IU saw the video associated with this coastal town. The tsunami surged 6 miles inland burying greenhouses and farmlands and homes every foot. A 65 foot fishing vessel was deposited nearly 5 miles inland. And 9500 people are unaccounted for, almost all certainly dead.


----------



## martybegan (Mar 13, 2011)

rdean said:


> martybegan said:
> 
> 
> > rdean said:
> ...



and you gave no example of how your statement was correct, and you completely avoided my calling out of your logical fallacies.

I beleive the proper response on my part is "neener neener"


----------



## Chris (Mar 13, 2011)

A new study by the Pew Research Center finds that the GOP is alienating scientists to a startling degree.

Only six percent of America's scientists identify themselves as Republicans; fifty-five percent call themselves Democrats. By comparison, 23 percent of the overall public considers itself Republican, while 35 percent say they're Democrats.

The ideological discrepancies were similar. Nine percent of scientists said they were "conservative" while 52 percent described themselves as "liberal," and 14 percent "very liberal." The corresponding figures for the general public were 37, 20 and 5 percent.

http://people-press.org/report/?pageid=1549

Only Six Percent Of Scientists Are Republicans: Pew Poll


----------



## Ravi (Mar 13, 2011)

Big Fitz said:


> Ravi said:
> 
> 
> > Big Fitz said:
> ...


My rep is not turned off, just the stars and bars are, asshole.

Big guy calling me a coward on the internet.


----------



## strollingbones (Mar 13, 2011)

could someone explain what is happening inside the rector...i saw where us nuclear experts were calling the flooding of the reactor (is flooding the right word) with sea water as a 'hail mary' pass.....o and one said...simply...we are in uncharted waters


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## Mini 14 (Mar 13, 2011)

I'm with dillo on this one now.

I don't think anyone knows, or understands what is going on inside ANY nuclear reactor, including the people who run them.

If somebody will just tell me when to buy more silver, and when to dive under a desk, I'd be forever grateful.

TIA


----------



## strollingbones (Mar 13, 2011)




----------



## editec (Mar 13, 2011)

Chris said:


> Shirakawa, Japan (CNN) -- Japanese authorities are operating on the presumption that possible meltdowns are under way at two nuclear reactors, a government official said Sunday, adding that there have been no indications yet of hazardous emissions of radioactive material into the atmosphere.
> 
> The attempts to avert a possible nuclear crisis, centered around the Fukushima Daiichi facility in northeast Japan, came as rescuers frantically scrambled to find survivors following the country's strongest-ever earthquake and a devastating tsunami that, minutes later, brought crushing walls of water that wiped out nearly everything in their paths.
> 
> ...


 
Oh crap!

Not good.  

If this event turns into a_ real disaster_ that's going to set back nucelar power for electricity for another twenty years.

Here's a thought...*stop building nuclear plants in earthquake prone zones.*


----------



## Big Fitz (Mar 13, 2011)

Chris said:


> A new study by the Pew Research Center finds that the GOP is alienating scientists to a startling degree.
> 
> Only six percent of America's scientists identify themselves as Republicans; fifty-five percent call themselves Democrats. By comparison, 23 percent of the overall public considers itself Republican, while 35 percent say they're Democrats.
> 
> ...


Oh dear GOD!  The Bacillus Rdeanii is spreading!!!!

Antibodies!  ANTIBODIES!!!!  6%!  ACK!  Too late!


----------



## Douger (Mar 13, 2011)

The trucks are in Georgia picking up the coffins to take to the west coast.
Have fun.


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## The Gadfly (Mar 13, 2011)

strollingbones said:


> could someone explain what is happening inside the rector...i saw where us nuclear experts were calling the flooding of the reactor (is flooding the right word) with sea water as a 'hail mary' pass.....o and one said...simply...we are in uncharted waters



Bones,
From what I gather, they really are in "uncharted waters". What they have, is a portion of the reactor core exposed (it should be covered with circulating water to cool it) As a result, the core overheats, and eventually the nuclear fuel rods themselves warp or begin to melt (partial meltdown). If the process continues it's possible for a hydrogen bubble to form within the containment structure (That's basically what happened at Three Mile Island). Apparently, this time, there actually was a hydrogen explosion (averted at TMI) which caused some damage to the containment building, with some venting of radioactive material.

Now if cooling with seawater fails, the reactor WILL NOT go critical; modern  power generating reactors are designed not to, so as to prevent the possibility of a nuclear explosion. However, if the fuel temperature continues to rise, there is the possibility of a steam explosion which could potentially breach the (already damaged) containment building, and possibly the reactor vessel itself, resulting in a substantial radioactive release, and there's a potential for the hot fuel to burn its way through the surrounding soil and rock in the event of a reactor core breach, possibly leading to groundwater contamination. Not a pleasant scenario, but not a nuclear blast, by a long shot. The seawater/boric acid solution will make it impossible to ever get the reactor(s) on line again, but should have a good chance of cooling the core before a steam explosion occurs, provided they can get enough continuous flow to do the job..


----------



## Zoom-boing (Mar 13, 2011)

The Gadfly said:


> strollingbones said:
> 
> 
> > could someone explain what is happening inside the rector...i saw where us nuclear experts were calling the flooding of the reactor (is flooding the right word) with sea water as a 'hail mary' pass.....o and one said...simply...we are in uncharted waters
> ...



Do they know how long it will take to cool the core, assuming the sea waters does cool it?


----------



## The Gadfly (Mar 13, 2011)

Zoom-boing said:


> The Gadfly said:
> 
> 
> > strollingbones said:
> ...


It's not entirely clear that they do; at least, I haven't seen a timetable, if anyone has one. I expect this could be dicey for perhaps 48 hours, perhaps more. They really have an unprecedented failure of s system designed with all the right redundant capacity; the Japanese know they live on an active seismic zone, and engineer their stuff with that in mind. Here, all the redundancy was simply overwhelmed. The reactors did what the were designed to do (execute an automatic scram), and damped the power=producing reaction. However, even after a successful scram, the core remains hot (even spent fuel has to be cooled). When the backup generators for the pumps failed due to damage, that meant a sufficient flow of water over the core could not be maintained. The backup batteries are a short-time last resort, meant to maintain some coolant pumping capacity for some hours (but not days). The result is a classic loss of cooling accident, which apparently (in at least one case) exposed a portion of the hot core, resulting in a partial meltdown (not terribly dire in and of itself, but of serious concern should it continue, or get worse).

Edit: Bear in mind, they not only have to achieve sufficient cooling to avert a steam explosion, they also have to be able to maintain cooling, after the immediate danger is over, or they'll have the same problem again; the fuel in that core is going to be generating quite a lot of heat, for a long time.Hopefully, this will buy them time to get their primary cooling back on line, though those reactors will be useless when this is over.


----------



## bigrebnc1775 (Mar 13, 2011)

I do not know if this has been posted yet but looks like it's getting real bad in Japan. The title of the video was posted incorrect it's not three plants but three reactors out of five have started to meltdown.


----------



## martybegan (Mar 13, 2011)

The Gadfly said:


> strollingbones said:
> 
> 
> > could someone explain what is happening inside the rector...i saw where us nuclear experts were calling the flooding of the reactor (is flooding the right word) with sea water as a 'hail mary' pass.....o and one said...simply...we are in uncharted waters
> ...



From the remains of the top of the outer building, the structure does not look like a form of containment, but merely weather protection. It appears to be a cladded steel structure, not the expected 4-8 feet of reinforced concrete you would expect of a secondary containment structure. 

From the pictures seen, it probably blew due to ignition of off gassed hydrogen, allowed to vent from the vessel and the secondary containment.   Hydrogen burns very fast, not enough power to damage the containment, but more than enough to blow the siding panels off the outer building.


----------



## The Gadfly (Mar 13, 2011)

martybegan said:


> The Gadfly said:
> 
> 
> > strollingbones said:
> ...


Marty, thanks; I had not seen the picture; i'd guess then, that the secondary containment is inside that outer structure. That still leaves the question of whether the containment is completely intact or not. Is there any more news on that?


----------



## martybegan (Mar 13, 2011)

The Gadfly said:


> martybegan said:
> 
> 
> > The Gadfly said:
> ...



Not yet, its still ranging from complete meltdown to complete containment and total cooldown of the reactors. 

It will be the same as any industrial/mechanical accident, we wont know exactly what happened until they publish the report.


----------



## Ravi (Mar 13, 2011)

Kudos to those working at the plants, feverishly trying to prevent a disaster...chance are some of them have lost family members already.


----------



## Annie (Mar 13, 2011)

While not on my list of go to sources, best compilation I can find right now:

Nuclear and radiation accidents - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



> ...Comparing the historical safety record of civilian nuclear energy with other forms of electrical generation, Ball, Roberts, and Simpson, the IAEA, and the Paul Scherrer Institute found in separate studies that during the period from *1970 to 1992, there were just 39 on-the-job deaths of nuclear power plant workers worldwide*, while during the same time period, there were *6,400 on-the-job deaths of coal power plant workers, 1,200 on-the-job deaths of natural gas power plant workers and members of the general public caused by natural gas power plants, and 4,000 deaths of members of the general public caused by hydroelectric power plants.*[11][12][13] In particular, *coal power plants are estimated to kill 24,000 Americans per year, due to lung disease[14] as well as causing 40,000 heart attacks per year[15] in the United States. According to Scientific American, the average coal power plant emits more than 100 times as much radiation per year than a comparatively sized nuclear power plant in the form of toxic coal waste known as fly ash.*[16]...


----------



## skeptic (Mar 13, 2011)

Zoom-boing said:


> Do they know how long it will take to cool the core, assuming the sea waters does cool it?



I read it takes 10 days to cool after the shutdown begins. Longer if there is insufficient water.


----------



## Old Rocks (Mar 13, 2011)

Well, Annie, the problem is not past record, but future potential. And right now that looks grim. And I see that your list did not include Chernobyl.

A secondary problem now is that what nature can do by accident, man can do by intention. Those that think in this manner now have a blueprint for creating a major disaster for at least 23 plants in the US.


----------



## skeptic (Mar 13, 2011)

The Gadfly said:


> *Now if cooling with seawater fails, the reactor WILL NOT go critical*



That pov is not shared by everybody. It is considered very unlikely that these meltdowns will go critical but it is not at all impossible.



The Gadfly said:


> ; modern  power generating reactors are designed not to, so as to prevent the possibility of a nuclear explosion.



This is not a modern power gen reactor. It is the first one built in Japan and is 40 years old next month.



The Gadfly said:


> However, if the fuel temperature continues to rise, there is the possibility of a steam explosion which could potentially breach the (already damaged) containment building, and possibly the reactor vessel itself, resulting in a substantial radioactive release, and there's a potential for the hot fuel to burn its way through the surrounding soil and rock in the event of a reactor core breach, possibly leading to groundwater contamination. Not a pleasant scenario, but not a nuclear blast, by a long shot. The seawater/boric acid solution will make it impossible to ever get the reactor(s) on line again, but should have a good chance of cooling the core before a steam explosion occurs, provided they can get enough continuous flow to do the job..



The third reactor is a plutonium reactor and what I understand is that if it has to be vented the way the first two were before sea water was pumped in as a last ditch effort then the plutonium reactor will emit dangerous radioactive material. Not just non toxic hydrogen.

The fact that Japanese authorities have essentially destroyed something like 15% of their electrical power generation capacity to avert meltdowns speaks volumes toward the risks involved even at this point. 

Japan is now gonna have to recover from the tsunami and quake with limited electrical energy for that task. The trains will not run on time. Fortunately with their economy in the toilet they have surplus industrial capacity to spare.  But their infrastructure is badly damaged and the reactors keep failing.


----------



## polarbear (Mar 13, 2011)

skookerasbil said:


> Polar........you should know by now..........the k00ks on the board would gladly buy a bag of dog doo for $1,000 if it was packaged just right. If its hysterical..............they buy.
> 
> 
> Just take a gandor over and check out the total post counts of idiots like Ravi, Rightwinger and Dean. Now tell me these people have any social connections beyond their PC.. And you wonder why they are fcukking k00ks??



All I know , is that people with a head on their shoulder don`t freak out, over a little nuclear mishap, and I expected nothing different from You.
The rest of the experts here are Hollywood/YouTube movie and Wikipedia nuclear power plant experts...and think a partial "melt-down" means there are huge puddles of white hot molten weapons grade Uranium spilling out of their confines and a huge nuclear explosion + a "Plutonium mushroom cloud" is eminent.
All that happens in a partial "melt down" is that 1 or 2 fuel rods overheated and deformed.
I don`t know where all these instant experts get their information or their instant qualifications from.
At least I can say I have mine, 






Don`t get confused by the wording "Your company" that is just standard lingo for an entity they don`t want to put into more explicit terms...
It will have to suffice, that at that time I did not work for MacDonalds trying to nuke Hamburgers

I don`t really care, it`s not too hard to find out my real name, my address and my profession, and when I did what for whom, so this is not that big of a secret either, I just don`t see why I should publish my year by year exam papers here,
*but I did not  get my education from YouTube or Wikipedia, just yesterday*
With C.M.E. it can happen* that You get deployed into a scenario just like that happening in Japan right now *
and* I  Do HAVE TO KNOW* what is what in a nuclear power plant...

*And I bet any amount of money there are some Military Engineers from the U.S. and Canada at these locations right now, doing what they always do in Situations like that
*
We train at this facility,  and that Power-plant there is almost exactly the same as the ones in Japan..
American Military Engineers get similar training, some of them trained along side with us at  the same location...and none of them would be too concerned about this "melt down"..

Of Course "OldRocks" the asshole who claims he is a Millwright and doesn`t know a hammer form a screw driver will be here next and tell You with some "Global Warming" URL`s how a nuclear power plant really  works, by quoting "Greenpeace" or Al Gore...

How about it "OldRocks" and the rest of You "experts" here, nobody stops You from going over there,...show `em how it`s done, like You show us "how to save the planet" in all the other idiot threads here


----------



## skeptic (Mar 13, 2011)

Annie said:


> While not on my list of go to sources, best compilation I can find right now:
> 
> Nuclear and radiation accidents - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> ...



Great post!

The total impacts and cumulative risks of coal are almost never fully realized, coal plants disperse mercury and lead thru the atmosphere and into the oceans where they concentrate in the food chain ladders until we finally eat them as sea food. 

Acid rain, mountain top and stream destruction, black lung, mining accidents, CO2 emissions, it goes on and on.

But to consider that coal mining actually distributes more radioactive material into the atmosphere than the nuclear industry does, and I don't doubt it, that just takes the cake. 

Coal has to be burned in huge volumes to power our electrical needs. ordinary soils and rock contain low levels of radioactive material. But the volumes of material that are displaced to obtain the huge volumes of coal that we burn are enormous. So trace levels of radioactivity in tremendous volumes of earth add up. Even dust from mining would be a considerable radioactive component. Not to mention runoff into streams, coal smoke and underground water contaminated by disrupting so much earth.

I can not imagine how we can even consider using coal as a significant energy platform. 

Now if we could only figure out a way to dispose of radioactive waste. Because the primary reason why coal produces more radioactive contamination than the nuclear industry is because the nuclear industry has yet to permanently dispose of ANY of their waste. They basically just store it in dumpsters on site and those dumpsters keep piling up.

Imagine never taking your toxic garbage to the landfill, instead just buying more and more garbage cans and filling them and stacking them in your back yard for 60 years......


----------



## martybegan (Mar 13, 2011)

skeptic said:


> Annie said:
> 
> 
> > While not on my list of go to sources, best compilation I can find right now:
> ...



it may be something you just have to take into account, and design facilities to handle it. As you stated above, coal plants produce waste too, and in far greater amounts per Megawatt. At least the nuclear stuff is in one place, and while dangerous, easy to handle if you know the proper precautions. 

For the garbage analogy you would have to include that you only produce one bag of garbage every 3-4 years, and your backyard is the size of ohio to get the sizes in perspective.


----------



## USAMomma (Mar 13, 2011)

180,000 flee as Japan's nuclear crisis intensifies
Officials say they believe a hydrogen explosion has occurred at Fukushima Daiichi plant


Japan's nuclear crisis intensifies; 180,000 flee - World news - Asia-Pacific - msnbc.com


----------



## Big Fitz (Mar 13, 2011)

> *coal power plants are estimated to kill 24,000 Americans per year,  due to lung disease[14] as well as causing 40,000 heart attacks per  year[15] in the United States. *


I have a REAL problem with this 'fact'.  Show me one person where they can directly link cancer, lung disease or heart disease to coal being burnt in a power plant or any industrial complex?

Probably the same amount of people as you can find with the cause of death being "Smoking" on their death certificates.  This is not like Chromium 6 poisoning.

There used to be a day when you had to prove direct links to harm.  We should be going back to that.


----------



## skeptic (Mar 13, 2011)

> There used to be a day when you had to prove direct links to harm. We should be going back to that.



Maybe we should be going back to that for some purposes, like legal damages liability. But there are lots of things that are true that can't be proven, like gravity. We know it is true but we can't prove what causes it.

In the case of the deaths caused by burning coal I am sure that is statistical proof they relied on to arrive at that stat. And I for one do not doubt it. But the quote only says that the figures stated are estimates. 

Do you have to be able to prove estimates accurate?


----------



## Big Fitz (Mar 13, 2011)

skeptic said:


> > There used to be a day when you had to prove direct links to harm. We should be going back to that.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Statistical evidence is not proof of direct cause.  There are hundreds of factors that can cause those diseases.  Till you run down all the others, you cannot conclusively say that it is a fact burning coal caused it.  A meltdown is a little easier to prove if they die of radiation poisoning.  But now if they get pancreatic cancer 20 years down the line... you could assume their radiation exposure contributed, but you still have no real proof.

This is the problem with all these types of cases.  They assume statistical estimates and data equal absolutes.  But, that went by the boards with Rachel Carson and DDT.  Didn't need to prove anything, just had to allege and show a trend that was plausible.  Ask the cigarette manufacturers for one.  Or fast food now.  This is a substitute for those who want compensation to life kicking them in the cojones from somebody, and can't find a direct cause to blame.  They use statistical probability instead.


----------



## Chris (Mar 13, 2011)

One of the other reactor buildings just blew up...

TOKYO -- Japan's chief cabinet secretary says a hydrogen explosion has occurred at Unit 3 of Japan's stricken Fukushima Dai-ichi nuclear plant. The blast was similar to an earlier one at a different unit of the facility.

Yukio Edano says people within a 12-mile (20-kilometer) radius were ordered inside following Monday's. AP journalists felt the explosion 30 miles (50 kilometers) away.

Hydrogen explosion at stricken Japanese nuke plant - World - MiamiHerald.com


----------



## skeptic (Mar 13, 2011)

> They assume statistical estimates and data equal absolutes.



well, in this case they _said_ that statistical estimates = estimates. I can't see any harm in that.


----------



## skeptic (Mar 14, 2011)

martybegan said:


> it may be something you just have to take into account, and design facilities to handle it. *As you stated above, coal plants produce waste too, and in far greater amounts per Megawatt.* At least the nuclear stuff is in one place, and while dangerous, easy to handle if you know the proper precautions.
> 
> For the garbage analogy you would have to include that you only produce one bag of garbage every 3-4 years, and your backyard is the size of ohio to get the sizes in perspective.



But the reason why coal plants produce more radioactive emissions than nuclear plants is because the nuclear plants have yet to dispose of any of their waste. 

This is an enormous systemic shortcoming yet to be solved or accounted for. No discussion of the viability of nuclear power gets past the first sentence without addressing it. 

So address it, please.


----------



## martybegan (Mar 14, 2011)

skeptic said:


> martybegan said:
> 
> 
> > it may be something you just have to take into account, and design facilities to handle it. *As you stated above, coal plants produce waste too, and in far greater amounts per Megawatt.* At least the nuclear stuff is in one place, and while dangerous, easy to handle if you know the proper precautions.
> ...



The disposal is sequestering it, as they planned to do at yucca mountain. Coal burning disperses natural radioactive particles into the atmosphere, thus rendering them uncontrolled. 

While nuclear plant waste is far more concentrated, it is at least a point source, i.e., you know where it is.  

With current technology you simply cannot make the waste "go away".  The best current solution is to find a nice safe place to entomb it and store it until the radioactivity goes away. I know there is reasearch going on to find ways of further using the waste as fuel, but until then, you are just going to have to store it.


----------



## Ravi (Mar 14, 2011)

But Pentagon officials reported Sunday that helicopters flying 60 miles  from the plant picked up small amounts of radioactive particulates   still being analyzed, but presumed to include cesium-137 and iodine-121   suggesting widening environmental contamination. 



 In a country where memories of a nuclear horror of a different sort in  the last days of World War II weigh heavily on the national psyche and  national politics, the impact of continued venting of long-lasting  radioactivity from the plants is hard to overstate. 



 Japanese reactor operators now have little choice but to periodically  release radioactive steam as part of an emergency cooling process for  the fuel of the stricken reactors that may continue for a year or more  even after fission has stopped. The plants operator must constantly try  to flood the reactors with seawater, then release the resulting  radioactive steam into the atmosphere, several experts familiar with the  design of the Daiichi facility said. 



 That suggests that the tens of thousands of people who have been  evacuated may not be able to return to their homes for a considerable  period, and that shifts in the wind could blow radioactive materials  toward Japanese cities rather than out to sea. 



http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/14/world/asia/japan-fukushima-nuclear-reactor.html?_r=1&hp


----------



## Chris (Mar 14, 2011)

A third reactor has now failed....

Tokyo (CNN) -- Another reactor at Japan's Fukushima Daiichi nuclear plant lost its cooling capabilities Monday, a government official said.

The problem was detected in the plant's No. 2 reactor Monday afternoon after an explosion rocked the building containing the plant's No. 3 reactor, Chief Cabinet Secretary Yukio Edano told reporters.

"We think that the hydrogen explosion in (the building housing) reactor No. 3 caused the cooling system of reactor No. 2 to stop working," Edano said.

Water levels were falling and pressure was building up inside the No. 2 reactor, he said, and officials were working on a plan to release gas and also inject seawater into that reactor.

Cooling system fails in another reactor at Japanese nuclear plant - CNN.com


----------



## Big Fitz (Mar 14, 2011)

skeptic said:


> > They assume statistical estimates and data equal absolutes.
> 
> 
> 
> well, in this case they _said_ that statistical estimates = estimates. I can't see any harm in that.


But when estimates are used to 'prove' damage and then cost people money, I have a huge problem with it.


----------



## konradv (Mar 14, 2011)

The only long term answer to radioactive waste is fusion power.

Department of Energy - Fusion

ITER - the way to new energy


----------



## Big Fitz (Mar 14, 2011)

konradv said:


> The only long term answer to radioactive waste is fusion power.
> 
> Department of Energy - Fusion
> 
> ITER - the way to new energy


Oh good... And that will be operational for industrial scale production... when?

That's right... maybe by 2090ad.

And if a containment bottle fails there, it just acts like a small star flashing on the surface of the planet for a moment.  Nooooo, not dangerous at all.


----------



## Mr. Jones (Mar 14, 2011)

Chris said:


> A third reactor has now failed....
> 
> Tokyo (CNN) -- Another reactor at Japan's Fukushima Daiichi nuclear plant lost its cooling capabilities Monday, a government official said.
> 
> ...



It seems the situation is made worse according to scattered reports of MOX nuclear fuel being used in reactor #3, which is potentially more dangerous then regular uranium used in the other reactors.

According to World Nuclear News, in August 2010 Japan loaded Mox fuel into the Fukushima #3 reactor.

http://www.world-nuclear-news.org/WR-Gearing_up_for_MOX_in_Japan_and_US-0111108.html

How is Mox fuel different then uranium? The BBC has also confirmed that Mox Fuel has been used in reactor #3!
"n the meantime, there have been suggestions that an incident at reactor 3 would inherently be more dangerous than at reactors 1 and 2 because it burns "mixed oxide fuel" (MOX) containing plutonium."
BBC News - Struggle to stabilise Japan's Fukushima nuclear plant


----------



## Chris (Mar 14, 2011)

I remember the chairman of the Atomic Energy Commission saying he was prepared to defend nuclear waste sites for "100,000 years"...

Because some radioactive species have half-lives longer than one million years, even very low container leakage and radionuclide migration rates must be taken into account. Moreover, it may require more than one half-life until some nuclear waste loses enough radioactivity so that it is no longer lethal to humans. Waste containers have a modeled lifetime of 12,000 to over 100,000 years, and it is assumed they will fail in about two million years. A 1983 review of the Swedish radioactive waste disposal program by the National Academy of Sciences found that country&#8217;s estimate of about one million years being necessary for waste isolation &#8220;fully justified.&#8221;

Radioactive waste - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


----------



## ginscpy (Mar 14, 2011)

That there have been  so few -if any -lives lost in Japan (so far) as a result of nuclear plant damage - after an 8.9 quake -seems to indicate that nuclear plants are pretty safe.  

But the greenwackoffs/lib-media don't want good news -they want complete meltdowns with huge loss of life to further their agendas.


----------



## Ravi (Mar 14, 2011)

ginscpy said:


> That there have been  so few -if any -lives lost in Japan (so far) as a result of nuclear plant damage - after an 8.9 quake -seems to indicate that nuclear plants are pretty safe.
> 
> But the greenwackoffs/lib-media don't want good news -they want complete meltdowns with huge loss of life to further their agendas.


 Stick to reliving the sixties...moron.


----------



## ginscpy (Mar 14, 2011)

​


Ravi said:


> ginscpy said:
> 
> 
> > That there have been  so few -if any -lives lost in Japan (so far) as a result of nuclear plant damage - after an 8.9 quake -seems to indicate that nuclear plants are pretty safe.
> ...



I am about to live the 60s - MY 60s  - born 1953


----------



## Old Rocks (Mar 14, 2011)

ginscpy said:


> That there have been  so few -if any -lives lost in Japan (so far) as a result of nuclear plant damage - after an 8.9 quake -seems to indicate that nuclear plants are pretty safe.
> 
> But the greenwackoffs/lib-media don't want good news -they want complete meltdowns with huge loss of life to further their agendas.



What a lowlife lying bastard you are.


----------



## dimfry (Mar 14, 2011)

There has been a 3rd explosion now in reactor-1 again. It's getting serious. The reports says there are deposits of Uranium and Plutonium there.


----------



## skookerasbil (Mar 15, 2011)

Woke up this AM and went over to DRUDGE.......same lame alarmist crap. Got some coffee......same crap on the networks.

This is dragging out too long. When you hear the word "meltdown" in every single sentence.............

meh..........theres not going to be any epic catastrophy here beyond what the tsunami has already wrought. Expect the hysteria to last another few days..........then we'll be back to debating gayness on here.


----------



## skookerasbil (Mar 15, 2011)

Old Rocks said:


> ginscpy said:
> 
> 
> > That there have been  so few -if any -lives lost in Japan (so far) as a result of nuclear plant damage - after an 8.9 quake -seems to indicate that nuclear plants are pretty safe.
> ...





s0n.........Ive always said you have the political IQ of a lawnmower spark plug. Guessing your Mom nursed you to 4 years old. You trust anything s0n.......as long as its hysterical.


----------



## skookerasbil (Mar 15, 2011)

past nuclear meltdowns causing extensive radiation all happened within 24 hours. We're out past 96 hours on this..........

Wake up and smell the maple nut crunch!!!


----------



## Intense (Mar 15, 2011)

TOKYO &#8212; Conditions at a crippled nuclear power plant deteriorated further today, with a Japanese nuclear safety official saying that the water inside the waste fuel storage pool for a damaged reactor may be boiling.

Hidehiko Nishiyama told reporters that "we cannot deny the possibility of water boiling" in the spent fuel storage pool at the facility.


If the water boils, it could evaporate, exposing the rods. The fuel rods are encased in safety containers meant to prevent them from resuming nuclear reactions, nuclear officials said, downplaying the risk of that happening.
But they acknowledged that there could have been damage to the containers. They also confirmed that the walls of the storage pool building were damaged.


A fire, explosions and other damage to the Fukushima Dai-ichi power plant following a massive earthquake and tsunami on Friday have triggered Japan's worst nuclear crisis since the atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki in 1945.


Nishiyama, an official in the Economy Ministry, which oversees nuclear safety, avoided commenting on the potential risks from rising temperatures caused by a failure in the systems that keep the spent fuel rods cool. He said the plant's operator is considering what to do about the problem.


The Unit 4 reactor at the Fukushima Dai-ichi power plant caught fire earlier today and is believed to have caused a release of dangerous levels of radioactivity in the immediate area. Elevated radioactivity readings in surrounding regions were not high enough to pose a health threat, the government said.


Unit 4 was not operating at the time of the tsunami, but its backup power systems failed afterward, preventing cooling systems from working properly. Three reactors already have been wrecked by explosions and nuclear officials confirmed that temperatures in two other reactors that had been shut down for inspections were also rising.

JAPAN: Nuclear reactor danger escalates | The Daily Times | delmarvanow.com


----------



## Intense (Mar 15, 2011)

By ERIC TALMADGE and MARI YAMAGUCHI
Associated Press 
SOMA, Japan (AP) - Water levels dropped precipitously Monday inside a Japanese nuclear reactor, twice leaving the uranium fuel rods completely exposed and raising the threat of a meltdown, hours after a hydrogen explosion tore through the building housing a different reactor.

Water levels were restored after the first decrease, but the rods remained partially exposed late Monday night, increasing the risk of the spread of radiation and the potential for an eventual meltdown.

The cascading troubles in the Fukushima Dai-ichi plant compounded the immense challenges faced by the Tokyo government, already struggling to send relief to hundreds of thousands of people along the country's quake- and tsunami-ravaged coast where at least 10,000 people are believed to have died.

Later, a top Japanese official said the fuel rods in all three of the most troubled nuclear reactors appeared to be melting.

Of all these troubles, the drop in water levels at Unit 2 had officials the most worried.

"Units 1 and 3 are at least somewhat stabilized for the time being," said Nuclear and Industrial Agency official Ryohei Shiomi "Unit 2 now requires all our effort and attention."

Workers managed to raise water levels after the second drop Monday night, but they began falling for a third time, according to nuclear agency official Naoki Kumagai. They are now considering spraying water directly on container to cool it.

In some ways, the explosion at Unit 3 was not as dire as it might seem.

The blast actually lessened pressure building inside the troubled reactor, and officials said the all-important containment shell - thick concrete armor around the reactor - had not been damaged. In addition, officials said radiation levels remained within legal limits, though anyone left within 12 miles (20 kilometers) of the scene was ordered to remain indoors.

"We have no evidence of harmful radiation exposure," deputy Cabinet secretary Noriyuki Shikata told reporters.

Fukushima prefectural officials said, however, that 190 people have been exposed to some radiation from the plant. Nuclear safety officials said monitoring devices around the plant briefly showed radiation levels six times the legal limit, but they have since gone down.

On Saturday, a similar hydrogen blast destroyed the housing around the complex's Unit 1 reactor, leaving the shell intact but resulting in the mass evacuation of more than 185,000 people from the area.

Officials were clearly struggling to keep ahead of the crisis and prevent a worst case scenario: a complete reactor meltdown.

Meltdown threat rises at Japanese nuclear plant - Live5News.com | Charleston, SC | News, Weather, Sports


----------



## Douger (Mar 15, 2011)

If you live on the west coast I recommend you do something totally insane.
Listen to Terral.
Spend a couple of weeks on the east side of the Rockies. It'll be fun and might save your life. If not ? It'll still be fun.
Remember. All governments are run by psychopathic , lying, motherfuckers.
If you believe the Japs or the murkins, you're a fool.


----------



## martybegan (Mar 15, 2011)

Intense said:


> By ERIC TALMADGE and MARI YAMAGUCHI
> Associated Press
> SOMA, Japan (AP) - Water levels dropped precipitously Monday inside a Japanese nuclear reactor, twice leaving the uranium fuel rods completely exposed and raising the threat of a meltdown, hours after a hydrogen explosion tore through the building housing a different reactor.
> 
> ...



The main issue i have with all these articles is all the hedging, "might have happened", "chance of", "increased the risk". "maybe cesium 137".  The only hard information we get is some of the radiation readings, and even those are not telling the whole story. you are not getting dose/length information, or the radionucleotide breakdown of what they are detecting. 

I guess that is what we have to deal with when our information comes from 24 hour news media, but the lack of specifics makes me hesitant to postulate what is actually happening.


----------



## KissMy (Mar 15, 2011)

Looking at power production on a risk reward basis there have been fewer deaths from nuclear energy than coal, oil, natural gas, hydro-electric.


----------



## Intense (Mar 15, 2011)

martybegan said:


> Intense said:
> 
> 
> > By ERIC TALMADGE and MARI YAMAGUCHI
> ...



The main issue you might want to consider is the depth of the out of control downward spiral here. This is probably the most damaging Natural Disaster of our lifetime, compounded by the threat to 6 Nuclear Reactors. The fact that there is question in the first place, where there should be none, is a warning in itself. Remove the Politics, the justification to defend Nuclear Power, and watch. The breakdown of Infrastructure has crippled Japan, this will take years to sort out and piece together. To down play what is happening is to put more people at risk. That is just as irresponsible as inciting Panic. The best we can do is witness and tell the truth about what we see. Would you want to be misinformed or told the truth???


----------



## Liability (Mar 15, 2011)

We ARE getting some information about dosages of radiation.  And the reports are not good.  http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/15/world/asia/15nuclear.html

In a number of news blurbs from Japanese news agencies, dosage that is considered "acceptable" for a full year has been reported getting emitted there at a rate of ten times that level -- PER HOUR.


----------



## martybegan (Mar 15, 2011)

Intense said:


> martybegan said:
> 
> 
> > Intense said:
> ...



Downplaying in the area of effect is one thing, and as far as we know, the Japanese authorities are taking every precaution possible. My concern is that in the rush to report things we are NOT getting the truth. 

As an engineer who is not directly responsible for mitigating this, my gut reaction is to wait for the report that will inveitably be published before making any judgments on the viability of nuclear power.


----------



## Old Rocks (Mar 15, 2011)

If anyone of these reactors goes into a full meltdown, and spew significant radiation into the atmosphere, enough that people die, and many are sickened, the reaction worldwide will not be friendly to the nuclear industry.


----------



## Old Rocks (Mar 15, 2011)

KissMy said:


> Looking at power production on a risk reward basis there have been fewer deaths from nuclear energy than coal, oil, natural gas, hydro-electric.



Well, let's hope that in two weeks this is still true.


----------



## editec (Mar 15, 2011)

They're evacuating people within a 19 mil radius of the reactor?

Sounds kinda GRIM, doesn't it?


----------



## martybegan (Mar 15, 2011)

Liability said:


> We ARE getting some information about dosages of radiation.  And the reports are not good.  http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/15/world/asia/15nuclear.html
> 
> In a number of news blurbs from Japanese news agencies, dosage that is considered "acceptable" for a full year has been reported getting emitted there at a rate of ten times that level -- PER HOUR.



We still need the type of particle being emitted, as this directly relates to the duration of the radioactivity, and what excactly is being released from the plants.

You also need duration information, as a continous reading of .4 sievert is alot different than a .4 sievert spike, followed by a quick return to readings in the milisievert range.


----------



## Old Rocks (Mar 15, 2011)

skookerasbil said:


> Old Rocks said:
> 
> 
> > ginscpy said:
> ...



Go away. This is a serious discussion about a serious subject. No one needs the interjections of an idiot child troll.


----------



## Liability (Mar 15, 2011)

martybegan said:


> Liability said:
> 
> 
> > We ARE getting some information about dosages of radiation.  And the reports are not good.  http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/15/world/asia/15nuclear.html
> ...



That information has been getting reported, too.  But the coverage is difficult to find.  And I agree with you to the extent that the reporting has been spotty on such matters.  For example:  Radiation poses health risk in Japan after two new blasts | World | Deutsche Welle | 15.03.2011

A more detailed report along the lines of some of your questions  (accuracy is of course not verifiable) is found here:  IAEA: Fukushima Daiichi Nuclear Power Plant Update March 15


----------



## Ravi (Mar 15, 2011)

martybegan said:


> Intense said:
> 
> 
> > martybegan said:
> ...




It's only a flesh wound.


----------



## Valerie (Mar 15, 2011)

ginscpy said:


> That there have been  so few -if any -lives lost in Japan (so far) as a result of nuclear plant damage - after an 8.9 quake -seems to indicate that nuclear plants are pretty safe.
> 
> But the greenwackoffs/lib-media don't want good news -*they want complete meltdowns with huge loss of life to further their agendas.*


----------



## Valerie (Mar 15, 2011)




----------



## martybegan (Mar 15, 2011)

Liability said:


> martybegan said:
> 
> 
> > Liability said:
> ...



The site seems to talk the talk, using the right units, not being hyper-panicky. I'm going to bookmark it.


----------



## KissMy (Mar 15, 2011)

Old Rocks said:


> KissMy said:
> 
> 
> > Looking at power production on a risk reward basis there have been fewer deaths from nuclear energy than coal, oil, natural gas, hydro-electric.
> ...



It will still be true in 2 weeks. All the nuclear power plant reactors that could "melt down" have been de-commissioned for over the past 30 years or have been updated to use a sub critical mass fuel just like this ones in Japan.

*A nuclear meltdown is nearly impossible.* All that happens in a partial "melt down" is that 1 or 2 fuel rods overheated and deformed. There is no way for white hot molten weapons grade uranium to spill out of the reactor confines to create a huge "Plutonium mushroom cloud".

There are no eyes on these reactors. All info comes from radiation monitoring away from these plants. The media is hyping this because of the lack of real time eyes on certain facts. Just because nobody can give the media definite answers, speculation & fantasy fill the news.


----------



## boedicca (Mar 15, 2011)

Yes, I've pointed this out a few times myself.

This is Not A Chernobyl Situation.   The design and safety features of the plant will likely contain most of the radiation; reports today are that the levels in Tokyo never exceeded safe levels, and are already falling.   There is no graphite to burn and spread the radiation for thousands of miles.


----------



## Valerie (Mar 15, 2011)

> "The possibility of further radioactive leakage is heightening," a grim-faced Kan said in an address to the nation earlier in the day.
> 
> "We are making every effort to prevent the leak from spreading. I know that people are very worried but I would like to ask you to act calmly."
> 
> ...



Japan braces for potential radiation catastrophe | TPM News Pages


----------



## Big Fitz (Mar 15, 2011)

Douger said:


> If you live on the west coast I recommend you do something totally insane.
> Listen to Terral.
> Spend a couple of weeks on the east side of the Rockies. It'll be fun and might save your life. If not ? It'll still be fun.
> Remember. All governments are run by psychopathic , lying, motherfuckers.
> If you believe the Japs or the murkins, you're a fool.


Panic much?  At least you're remaining rational


----------



## Douger (Mar 15, 2011)

Big Fitz said:


> Douger said:
> 
> 
> > If you live on the west coast I recommend you do something totally insane.
> ...


I don't do panic.
When I hear a train coming, financial or other, I calmly collect my things and move away from the tracks.


----------



## mashburn (Mar 15, 2011)

I have a friend who is a english teacher in Japan. He is living at Nagano. I'm not sure how far away it is, but wish I could find out eactly what is from the radiation plants. I was in good talks with him from the day the earthquake hit. we stayed in contact until 3 days ago. it is possible he is busy, but I am kinda wondering for his safety with these power plants now.

he stated that what I am seeing on TV is TOTALLY different then what he is seeing. he told me the raidation was leaking almost from day one, while the news here just now mentioned it the other day. Japan has made it almost clear that they are not telling us everything about these reactors.

Also Japan has stated that the the wind and water helps them out if the radiation was to continue. all of it comes to the west coast of the United States. Is there a potential that this could affect us? If so how bad?
I know that two days ago on Japans TV they were still saying that Tsunamis were still uccuring. on almost all of their channels they show new warning zones. why is it still happening days after.


----------



## martybegan (Mar 15, 2011)

mashburn said:


> I have a friend who is a english teacher in Japan. He is living at Nagano. I'm not sure how far away it is, but wish I could find out eactly what is from the radiation plants. I was in good talks with him from the day the earthquake hit. we stayed in contact until 3 days ago. it is possible he is busy, but I am kinda wondering for his safety with these power plants now.
> 
> he stated that what I am seeing on TV is TOTALLY different then what he is seeing. he told me the raidation was leaking almost from day one, while the news here just now mentioned it the other day. Japan has made it almost clear that they are not telling us everything about these reactors.
> 
> ...



THE WALL OF TEXT!!! IT BURNS!!!

The assumptions, mistakes and general guesswork of this post makes me giggle a bit.


----------



## Valerie (Mar 15, 2011)

mashburn said:


> I have a friend who is a english teacher in J*apan. He is living at Nagano. I'm not sure how far away it is, but wish I could find out eactly what is from the radiation plants*. I was in good talks with him from the day the earthquake hit. we stayed in contact until 3 days ago. it is possible he is busy, but I am kinda wondering for his safety with these power plants now.
> 
> he stated that what I am seeing on TV is TOTALLY different then what he is seeing. he told me the raidation was leaking almost from day one, while the news here just now mentioned it the other day. Japan has made it almost clear that they are not telling us everything about these reactors.
> 
> ...





Nagano is way farther south and west of where the leak is.


The nuclear plants that are in trouble are at Fukushima:
Japan's Nuclear Program


----------



## Big Fitz (Mar 15, 2011)

Douger said:


> Big Fitz said:
> 
> 
> > Douger said:
> ...


This isn't "Stand By Me" you know.  No train is heard, seen, smelled or even operating on this track.  Your imagination's running away from you.

Next thing you're going to be doing is scaring the baby seals outside your window by running around your igloo screaming "Its gonna go through the ground like a great big glowing gopher!!!!" 

Take a breath, hump a seal and possibly log off till your next life.  The world's too big and scary for you.


----------



## skookerasbil (Mar 15, 2011)

Like I said this AM........we're getting our chains pulled. The media has played the entire world for the past few days........and will for the next several.

Tomorrows headline will be, "Fire in 4th reactor gets even hotter!!!"


Im setting up an over/under on the reactor meltdown crap..........Im taking 6 and the under!!!


----------



## The Gadfly (Mar 15, 2011)

Latest report: At about 1030 hours, local time, the Japanese government is reporting a "sudden rise in radiation levels" at the main gate of the Fukashima complex. Also report they have pulled back all their workers inside the complex. Fire in Reactor #4 area still NOT controlled. This looks like they have possibly lost the ability, at least for now, to keep water flowing to those reactors. This is NOT good!


----------



## American Horse (Mar 15, 2011)

editec said:


> They're evacuating people within a 19 mil radius of the reactor?
> 
> Sounds kinda GRIM, doesn't it?


Considering winds and some of the explosions, wouldn't that be prudent in a case where public safety is an issue, even if the reaction can be contained?


----------



## Mini 14 (Mar 15, 2011)

Smoke coming from plant now, 1300microsv recorded.

NHK WORLD TV on USTREAM: Official NHK WORLD TV live on USTREAM. NHK WORLD TV is an English language 24-hour international news and information channel. New...

The smoke appears to be blowing inland, and appears to be heavy.


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## Mini 14 (Mar 15, 2011)

Some confusion about whether or not they are abandoning plant. Official word is they have "suspended operations" but some are saying they may be going back in.


----------



## The Gadfly (Mar 15, 2011)

Given the Japanese tendency to understate everything, this, coming on the heels of the steadily increasing downward spiral of events in the last three days, sounds pretty grim. If in fact it's now too hot an environment for them to work inside the plant, they are pretty much out of realistic options; the explosion risk is too much for helicopters to do water drops, and that would be unlikely to be sufficient for them to regain control anyway. They may have to back off, and just hope the containment holds. It sounds like those spent rods now uncovered in reactor #4 have cooked off at least two hydrogen explosions in the last 24 hours, one core is 70% melted, another is 30% "damaged". What concerns me most, is the steady deterioration of the situation (at least as they are reporting it).


----------



## Zander (Mar 15, 2011)

The anti nuke crowd has been praying for this. Folks, take a deep breath. The world is not coming to an end. The media is being totally irresponsible in their coverage. Even in the worst case the amount of fallout that might leave the general area of the plants isn't going to be dangerous. As far as the fallout threatening the U.S. or the rest of the world, that's Pure B.S. 

Americans would be better served to worry about the horrible debt that the current administration has piled up in just two years. That's going to effect your life more than any fallout from Japan


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## Mini 14 (Mar 15, 2011)

It appears the reports are true and that they have abandoned the plant due to high levels of radiation.

Still some confusion, but government official just relayed that info again in press conference, and BBC has a storyu on it already:

BBC News - Fukushima workers withdraw after radiation spikes


----------



## Chris (Mar 15, 2011)

Zander said:


> The anti nuke crowd has been praying for this. Folks, take a deep breath. The world is not coming to an end. The media is being totally irresponsible in their coverage. Even in the worst case the amount of fallout that might leave the general area of the plants isn't going to be dangerous. As far as the fallout threatening the U.S. or the rest of the world, that's Pure B.S.
> 
> Americans would be better served to worry about the horrible debt that the current administration has piled up in just two years. That's going to effect your life more than any fallout from Japan



93% of the National Debt was created by Reagan and Bush lowering taxes for the rich.

Go to reaganbushdebt.org.


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## Mini 14 (Mar 15, 2011)

I have to believe if they are abandoning the plant, with active fires, it is over. They know they can't stop it. 

And Zander is right....little to no chance of any impact on US from fallout, and any impact would be negligible.


----------



## dilloduck (Mar 15, 2011)

Zander said:


> The anti nuke crowd has been praying for this. Folks, take a deep breath. The world is not coming to an end. The media is being totally irresponsible in their coverage. Even in the worst case the amount of fallout that might leave the general area of the plants isn't going to be dangerous. As far as the fallout threatening the U.S. or the rest of the world, that's Pure B.S.
> 
> Americans would be better served to worry about the horrible debt that the current administration has piled up in just two years. That's going to effect your life more than any fallout from Japan



agreed---especially in light of the fact that we tested hundreds of nuclear bombs in Nevada and the Pacific with very few if any precautionary measures in place.


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## Chris (Mar 15, 2011)

dilloduck said:


> Zander said:
> 
> 
> > The anti nuke crowd has been praying for this. Folks, take a deep breath. The world is not coming to an end. The media is being totally irresponsible in their coverage. Even in the worst case the amount of fallout that might leave the general area of the plants isn't going to be dangerous. As far as the fallout threatening the U.S. or the rest of the world, that's Pure B.S.
> ...



Yea, what's a little caesium 137 between friends, right?


----------



## skeptic (Mar 15, 2011)

Mini 14 said:


> Some confusion about whether or not they are abandoning plant. Official word is they have "suspended operations" but some are saying they may be going back in.



there have been several serious but momentary radiation spikes since the first explosion.

It is requisite to pull personnel out when they occur. 

But it means very little.


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## Ravi (Mar 16, 2011)

Zander said:


> The anti nuke crowd has been praying for this. Folks, take a deep breath. The world is not coming to an end. The media is being totally irresponsible in their coverage. Even in the worst case the amount of fallout that might leave the general area of the plants isn't going to be dangerous. As far as the fallout threatening the U.S. or the rest of the world, that's Pure B.S.
> 
> Americans would be better served to worry about the horrible debt that the current administration has piled up in just two years. That's going to effect your life more than any fallout from Japan


I have a spare ticket to Tokyo...maybe you want to go over there.


----------



## Douger (Mar 16, 2011)

Big Fitz said:


> Douger said:
> 
> 
> > Big Fitz said:
> ...



Me skareded and paranoid 
This statement coming from a real murkin, apparently living in Minnea*polish*, likely in a house that's only worth 1/2 of what it was 6-8 years ago and conducting transactions in US dollars and likely never having the ability to retire due to not being wise enough to be able to be "scared". Lotsa Jews and Ukrainians and others perished for the same reason.
It's almost sunup. Go raise your flag so you feel safe.

I'm already in my next life.
You are on your death bed. Radiation or not.


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## bigrebnc1775 (Mar 16, 2011)

Radiation Levels Near Fukushima Plant Extremely High 
A Japanese news agency has reported that radiation more than six-thousand times the standard level has been detected within the 20-to-30-kilometer radius of the Fukushima Number One nuclear power plant. It is the area where residents are required to take shelter indoors.
KBS WORLD


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## Old Rocks (Mar 16, 2011)

Zander said:


> The anti nuke crowd has been praying for this. Folks, take a deep breath. The world is not coming to an end. The media is being totally irresponsible in their coverage. Even in the worst case the amount of fallout that might leave the general area of the plants isn't going to be dangerous. As far as the fallout threatening the U.S. or the rest of the world, that's Pure B.S.
> 
> Americans would be better served to worry about the horrible debt that the current administration has piled up in just two years. That's going to effect your life more than any fallout from Japan



No sane person every wished for anything like this. You are lying scum


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## Old Rocks (Mar 16, 2011)

Mini 14 said:


> I have to believe if they are abandoning the plant, with active fires, it is over. They know they can't stop it.
> 
> And Zander is right....little to no chance of any impact on US from fallout, and any impact would be negligible.



That is what most are saying. Still, we get significant amounts of mercury from the burning of coal in China.

And while there may be little impact from the radiation, there will be significant economic impact.


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## Old Rocks (Mar 16, 2011)

bigrebnc1775 said:


> Radiation Levels Near Fukushima Plant Extremely High
> A Japanese news agency has reported that radiation more than six-thousand times the standard level has been detected within the 20-to-30-kilometer radius of the Fukushima Number One nuclear power plant. It is the area where residents are required to take shelter indoors.
> KBS WORLD



*Worth repeating. This is a very serious situation, getting worse by the hour. With a very high percentage of the infrastructure destroyed, or unable to run due to loss of power, the Japanese are in an incredibly vulnable situation.*

KBS WORLD

A Japanese news agency has reported that radiation more than six-thousand times the standard level has been detected within the 20-to-30-kilometer radius of the Fukushima Number One nuclear power plant. It is the area where residents are required to take shelter indoors.

Kyodo News Agency cited the Japanese Science Ministrys monitoring of radiation levels 21-kilometers from the Fukushima power plant on Tuesday and Wednesday. The radiation level of 330 microsieverts per hour was detected, which is some 66-hundred times the standard level.

The ministrys survey was conducted using two gauges in three locations while riding motor vehicles. Levels inside the vehicles were slightly lower than those outside.

A ministry official said that radiation levels generally drop as recorded measurements are further removed from the source, but this investigation was an exception to the rule of distance and radiation levels due to the wind currents.


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## Ravi (Mar 16, 2011)

I don't understand something, and maybe someone could explain it.

They were going to use helicopters to drop water but didn't because the radiation readings were too high.

Shouldn't they do it anyway? This is Japan's military, from what I understand...isn't it their duty to risk themselves to save their country?


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## KissMy (Mar 16, 2011)

Here are some Live Real Time Links to Geiger-Counter Nuclear Radiation Monitors in Japan

*Tokyo, Japan Live Geiger-Counter Link*

*Chiba, Japan Live Geiger-Counter Link*

Here are the levels for Radiation poisoning chart

1 mSv = 100 mrem = 0.1 rem so this would be normal radiation levels.
1 rad = 0.01 gray (Gy); 1 Gy = 100 rad; 
1 rem = 0.01 Sievert (Sv); 1Sv = 100 rem 
1 rad= 1 rem; 1 Gv = 1 Sv 

There are rolling black-outs in Japan so these links go down periodically.

Yesterday the Chiba Geiger-Counter was up to 1.8 - I think 3 or less is good.

Please Post other live Geiger Geiger-Counter links if you have them.


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## jasonmorston (Mar 16, 2011)

heh. actually that phrase is so old it always makes me smile. conjures images of brain-fried hippies with VWs and rubber hippie daisies (the daisies were 100% dependent on psychedlic drugs ruining their owners sense of taste) not withstanding all that they were right about nuclear power. use MHD.
free electricity! SAVE MONEY!  Cosmic Electrodynamics


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## jasonmorston (Mar 16, 2011)

i think from what i have read it was deemed to be pointless. not enough water. not enough time. reactor already to destabilized. remeber the core is exposed and the fuel rods are in contact with the atmosphere. they are military but like in the states the military works on "resources where resources are effective" throwing away soldiers lives for five minutes of delay for the inevitable is not pragmatic. they will be needed for the evacuation. yes i know it's not warm and fuzzy thinking but it is the effective way. that is the military thought proccess


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## Valerie (Mar 16, 2011)

Ravi said:


> I don't understand something, and maybe someone could explain it.
> 
> They were going to use helicopters to drop water but didn't because the radiation readings were too high.
> 
> Shouldn't they do it anyway? This is Japan's military, from what I understand...isn't it their duty to risk themselves to save their country?




Now they are going to try a water cannon instead...






> Japan has asked its national police agency to send a water cannon to the stricken Fukushima nuclear plant after the military was forced to abandon an attempt to drop water from helicopters due to radiation fears.
> Japan eyes water cannon to cool troubled reactor - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)






Japan's military abandoned a mission to use a helicopter to drop water into the overheating No.3 reactor because of radiation fears.


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## Big Fitz (Mar 16, 2011)

Douger said:


> Big Fitz said:
> 
> 
> > Douger said:
> ...


Wow... you are a fucking lunatic.  I'm done dignifying you with the illusion you're a sane sentient individual.


----------



## Ravi (Mar 16, 2011)

Valerie said:


> Ravi said:
> 
> 
> > I don't understand something, and maybe someone could explain it.
> ...


But if they think it would work, shouldn't they do it anyway?


----------



## Valerie (Mar 16, 2011)

Ravi said:


> Valerie said:
> 
> 
> > Ravi said:
> ...





I understand what you're saying, so I'm just guessing it was a simple risk/reward assessment based on the info they had and they just opted for one approach over another...


----------



## skeptic (Mar 16, 2011)

I dunno whether anybody noticed it but the reports are saying a likely breach in containment in reactor #3, that's the plutonium reactor. Much more serious fallout issues, half lives of 100s of 1000s of years.

Also the fact that they are suggesting using water cannons to cool the plants may mean that the plant itself is becoming to toxic to allow personnel onsite.

If all they have left is spraying water on the reactors to cool them then it may be time for prayer and evacuation.

I dunno how advanced the alleged evac of Tokyo is but other nations are scrambling to provide airliners to ferry millions of foreign nationals out of Japan. I read that parts of Tokyo look like a ghost town. Everybody is indoors or leaving.

Of course the media I rely on for current info and data seems to be spiraling out of control.


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## martybegan (Mar 16, 2011)

skeptic said:


> I dunno whether anybody noticed it but the reports are saying a likely breach in containment in reactor #3, that's the plutonium reactor. Much more serious fallout issues, half lives of 100s of 1000s of years.
> 
> Also the fact that they are suggesting using water cannons to cool the plants may mean that the plant itself is becoming to toxic to allow personnel onsite.
> 
> ...



Evacuating tokyo? What news source is giving you that information?


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## skeptic (Mar 16, 2011)

it's a spontaneous evacuation, mostly foreigners but Japanese families as well. Probably a precautionary evacuation. Would you stay in Tokyo with your kids?


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## martybegan (Mar 16, 2011)

skeptic said:


> it's a spontaneous evacuation, mostly foreigners but Japanese families as well. Probably a precautionary evacuation. Would you stay in Tokyo with your kids?



As opposed to trying to navigate a surrounding countryside that has been ass-slapped by a 9.0 earthquake and a Tsunami? Probably yes. 

Again, what are your sources for this?


----------



## skeptic (Mar 16, 2011)

Airlines scramble to assist Japan exodus - Google News


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## KissMy (Mar 16, 2011)

Tokyo & Chiba Japan radiation levels are declining.

Amateur Radiation Detection & Experimentation: Radioactive Dust


> Did you know that the dust that's in the air and settling all over your house (and computer monitor) is radioactive? It's true, it contains radioactive decay products from naturally occuring Uranium and Thorium.
> 
> As an experiment, I wiped some dust from the TV screen onto a tissue, and placed it in front of the radiation detector. The reading went from a background reading around 10 CPM to around 1300 CPM, or 130 times the reading!
> 
> ...



*Tokyo, Japan Live Geiger-Counter Link*

*Chiba, Japan Live Geiger-Counter Link*

Tokyo = 13.83cpm
Chiba = 0.18 I think it is reading in SV so it = 18.00cpm
These readings mean the radiation is barely above normal everyday background radiation.

Stress from people thinking they were exposed to radiation has killed more people than actual radiation ever has.


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## martybegan (Mar 16, 2011)

skeptic said:


> Airlines scramble to assist Japan exodus - Google News



So its basically people on thier own trying to leave, not an evacuation.

The panic train has commenced.


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## skeptic (Mar 16, 2011)

a spontaneous evacuation, yeah. Everything I have seen said it is orderly.


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## Zander (Mar 16, 2011)

The end result of this catastrophe will be a resurgence of the anti-nuclear power movement.  The anti-nuke crowd are positively thrilled that this happened despite Old Rocks denials. Truth is truth, even when it is ugly.


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## Valerie (Mar 16, 2011)

Zander said:


> The end result of this catastrophe will be a resurgence of the anti-nuclear power movement.  The anti-nuke crowd are positively thrilled that this happened despite Old Rocks denials. Truth is truth, even when it is ugly.





To imply anyone is thrilled by radiation exposure is ridiculous.  

Anti nuke people were afraid of this sort of worse case scenario and the discussions naturally shift with more concrete experience...Just like with the deep water drilling.  

It would be stupid not to learn something from a catastrophe and I am not anti nuke or anti drilling, it's just common sense to rethink the risk/reward and how to and where to, etc...


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## FuelRod (Mar 16, 2011)

Isn't doing nothing going to make the situation worse?


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## Ravi (Mar 16, 2011)

skeptic said:


> it's a spontaneous evacuation, mostly foreigners but Japanese families as well. Probably a precautionary evacuation. Would you stay in Tokyo with your kids?


You betcha...in a heartbeat. And then if nothing happens I'd return.

Why take the chance...if we know nothing else we do know that neither the Japanese government nor the power company know what the heck they are doing.


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## jillian (Mar 16, 2011)

FuelRod said:


> Isn't doing nothing going to make the situation worse?



why is it all or nothing? why not assess risks?

i find it weird that some people immediately strike out at anyone who raises the safety issues. In making a decision to use nuclear power, we have to understand that such use entails the types of risks that existed at Three Mile Island in this country and the catastrophic occurrences in Japan.

Those have to be weighed against the catastrophic results of continued reliance on fossil fuels. 

It only makes sense to do a cost/benefit analysis... and i don't understand why some on the right in an almost spiteful effort to degrade environmental concerns, refuse to assess the risks.


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## FuelRod (Mar 16, 2011)

jillian said:


> FuelRod said:
> 
> 
> > Isn't doing nothing going to make the situation worse?
> ...



Pretty simply when dealing with radiation leaks and potential meltdowns, time is of the essence.


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## Zander (Mar 16, 2011)

Valerie said:


> Zander said:
> 
> 
> > The end result of this catastrophe will be a resurgence of the anti-nuclear power movement.  The anti-nuke crowd are positively thrilled that this happened despite Old Rocks denials. Truth is truth, even when it is ugly.
> ...



I agree that we can and should learn from this. But the anti-nuclear energy crowd are not a rational group- they do not want to learn. They want to end all nuclear power.  

PS- The nuclear industry in the United States has maintained one of the best industrial safety records in the world.


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## bigrebnc1775 (Mar 16, 2011)

This is an interesting radar map

Spread of the cloud for now 6:00 UTC and 18:00 UTC today (assuming constant release) 
Google Translate


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## skeptic (Mar 16, 2011)

It is unraveling quickly.


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## LA RAM FAN (Mar 16, 2011)

Mini 14 said:


> They have completely lost the cooling towers. Unable to stop the heating now.
> 
> Evacuated to a radius of 10 miles, and expanding as fast as they can.
> 
> It isn't good.



theres a danger that the radioactivity  may come over here to the states as well.THIS FAR REACHING.cross your fingers it doesnt happen.


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## dilloduck (Mar 16, 2011)

9/11 inside job said:


> Mini 14 said:
> 
> 
> > They have completely lost the cooling towers. Unable to stop the heating now.
> ...



Life is a crap shoot. I got better things to do with my fingers.


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## Chris (Mar 16, 2011)

March 16 (Bloomberg) -- All cooling water has drained from the spent-fuel pool at one of the crippled nuclear reactors in Japan, causing the release of high levels of radiation, U.S. Nuclear Regulatory Commission Chairman Gregory Jaczko said.

&#8220;We believe that the secondary containment has been destroyed and there is no water in the spent-fuel pool,&#8221; he said today at a hearing of a House Energy and Commerce Committee panel in Washington. &#8220;We believe that radiation levels are extremely high, which could possibly impact the ability to take corrective measures.&#8221;

The unit at the Fukushima Daiichi plant wasn&#8217;t operating at the time of the March 11 earthquake and tsunami, said Jaczko, the chief U.S. regulator of nuclear-power plants.

The Associated Press reported that Japanese officials denied all the water has drained and said the reactor, known as Unit 4, is stable.

Radiation at the Japanese site is fluctuating and at peak levels is life-threatening, Jaczko said.

The peak levels &#8220;would be lethal within a fairly short period of time,&#8221; he said. The pool at the plant&#8217;s Unit 3, which was in service, may be cracked and losing water, Jaczko said.

Japan Reactor Loses Cooling Water for Spent Fuel, Jaczko Says - Businessweek


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## Zoom-boing (Mar 16, 2011)

Chris said:


> March 16 (Bloomberg) -- All cooling water has drained from the spent-fuel pool at one of the crippled nuclear reactors in Japan, causing the release of high levels of radiation, U.S. Nuclear Regulatory Commission Chairman Gregory Jaczko said.
> 
> *We believe* that the secondary containment has been destroyed and there is no water in the spent-fuel pool, he said today at a hearing of a House Energy and Commerce Committee panel in Washington. *We believe* that radiation levels are extremely high, which* could possibly impact* the ability to take corrective measures.
> 
> ...




They don't know anything for certain yet.


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## Chris (Mar 16, 2011)

The status of reactor No. 3 at the site was not clear, with some reports saying that the reactor containment vessel may have been breached and was releasing radioactivity and others saying that it was still intact.

Authorities had feared a breach of the reactor vessel after the eruption of a plume of smoke from the reactor on Wednesday. The most recent statement from Chief Cabinet Secretary Yukio Edano, however, indicated that the smoke was probably steam from a spent fuel pool at that reactor building and that the reactor vessel itself had not been breached.

Officials are particularly concerned about reactor No. 3 because it is the only reactor at the facility that is fueled with what is known as a mixed oxide fuel. The pellets in mixed oxide fuel contain both plutonium and uranium. Plutonium is highly carcinogenic in small quantities, and its release into the environment would be very dangerous.

The containment vessel at reactor No. 2 has previously been breached, and it appeared to be leaking small amounts of radioactivity.

Japan reactors: Japan labors to cool damaged nuclear reactors - latimes.com


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## Liability (Mar 16, 2011)

It kinda sucks that there is so much about the situation at those reactors that we don't know and may not be able to find out fast enough.

If, for example, the speculation that the spent fuel rods are no longer sitting in a nice cool bath is correct, what follows from that fact?

It sounds to me like the prospect of a serious meltdown increases dramatically, since the rods go on getting hotter and hotter and hotter.

If the water bathing the spent rods has disappeared, then my next question is "where did it go?"  Did it just boil off into steam (bad enough) OR has there been some kind of leak (probably even worse)?


----------



## bigrebnc1775 (Mar 16, 2011)

From tha animated map link I posted you can see a fain't glimps of the cloud passing over California.


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## skeptic (Mar 16, 2011)

Liability said:


> It kinda sucks that there is so much about the situation at those reactors that we don't know and may not be able to find out fast enough.
> 
> If, for example, the speculation that the spent fuel rods are no longer sitting in a nice cool bath is correct, what follows from that fact?
> 
> ...



I think it did boil off. And I think they may now be fucked. Even spent rods will, as you said, heat themselves enough to catch fire without continual water.

The US military has called all personel away from the reactor (50 miles) and ordered radiation sickness medicine if any must venture into the region.


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## BolshevikHunter (Mar 16, 2011)

Extra Terral's buddy says Radiation has reached California.  ~BH

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=72vSysMywIk"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=72vSysMywIk[/ame]


----------



## California Girl (Mar 16, 2011)

Ravi said:


> Valerie said:
> 
> 
> > Ravi said:
> ...




The BBC said high winds are making it impossible for them to fly the water over the reactors.... the winds make it almost impossible for them to drop the water in the right place.


----------



## Ravi (Mar 16, 2011)

skeptic said:


> Liability said:
> 
> 
> > It kinda sucks that there is so much about the situation at those reactors that we don't know and may not be able to find out fast enough.
> ...


I don't think they called them away as much as they told them to not go within 50 miles of the reactors unless they were on a mission.


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## skeptic (Mar 16, 2011)

high winds, wunnerful.


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## bigrebnc1775 (Mar 16, 2011)

BolshevikHunter said:


> Extra Terral's buddy says Radiation has reached California.  ~BH
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=72vSysMywIk



Check my link out


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## bigrebnc1775 (Mar 16, 2011)

BolshevikHunter said:


> Extra Terral's buddy says Radiation has reached California.  ~BH
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=72vSysMywIk



I am not sure who site this belongs to, but it does show the rad. cloud passing over California in the same area mentioned in the video.










Google Translate


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## BolshevikHunter (Mar 16, 2011)

bigrebnc1775 said:


> BolshevikHunter said:
> 
> 
> > Extra Terral's buddy says Radiation has reached California.  ~BH
> ...



I am glad that you noticed the same thing. Right around Bakersfield, Ca. That's just around 4 hours South from me. ~BH


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## bigrebnc1775 (Mar 16, 2011)

BolshevikHunter said:


> bigrebnc1775 said:
> 
> 
> > BolshevikHunter said:
> ...












Take care.


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## The Gadfly (Mar 16, 2011)

Everyone,
Please let's stop arguing over what we don't know, in order to make our political points. There are simply too many things unclear, (likely even to those working at the scene) to draw any conclusions beyond the following:

One - there has been a very serious nuclear accident at the Fukushima Daiichi reactor complex. 

Two - the situation is not yet under control, and so far, there appears to be little progress toward that end.

Three - there have been periodic radiation releases within the plant site, serioius enough to pull workers out.

Four - by all accounts the situation is beyond what occurred at Three Mile Island, but to this point, remains far less serious than the Chernobyl incident.

Five - to this point, there has been no widespread release of radiological contaminants. At present no one really knows if that will occur, and if so, what the scale of the release might be, or whether there will be life-threatening contamination,within or beyond the site. That is still speculation, at this point.

Six - from what we know at present, there is no need for hysteria, here or in Japan.

Seven - this remains a serious and still deteriorating situation; while it is no cause for panic at this time, it is not a joke either, and however it ends, will at least represent a further serious loss of infrastructure and needed power to a population already trying to cope with a terrible disaster. This is not a matter for our entertainment, nor should it be a time for an exchange of insults, recriminations, and "I told you sos". Let's try to discuss this like rational adults, bearing in mind that this incident and the disaster which led to it are having and may well continue to have serious consequences for the people of Japan, who are real people with lives, feelings and families just like us.; whatever our politics, what happens to them matters. If you are disposed to pray, now would be a good time to do so, for all those in the affected area, and especially those doing the risky job of trying to gain control of the situation. If you are not disposed to pray, then at least, try to think of them, as you would wish them to think of us, if our situations were reversed.


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## BolshevikHunter (Mar 16, 2011)

The Gadfly said:


> Five - to this point, there has been no widespread release of radiological contaminants. At present no one really knows if that will occur, and if so, what the scale of the release might be, or whether there will be life-threatening contamination,within or beyond the site. That is still speculation, at this point.



Not trying to be rude, but how the hell do you know that there has been no "widespread release"? Are you a Nuclear Physicists or something? There is this thing called a Jet Stream if you have not heard of it. While I appreciate your optimism, Frankly I am not buying it. 

It seems to me The Government has their yes-men on full internet chat boards duty. And if that's not the case, then I would guess that you probably don't live in Hawaii or on The West Coast like some of us do. People should be worried, and they should be very worried. Do you think that The Government would desire panic on the West Coast or Hawaii? Do you think that they want to hurt the economy anymore than it already is as well? 

Let me tell you something friend, I had a trip to Hawaii planned in June. Guess what? We are not going now. Get what I am saying to you? Same goes for California, only I can't go there, because I am already here, which is there. I'll make the decision to worry for myself, thank you. ~BH


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## LibocalypseNow (Mar 16, 2011)

I'm actually very surprised at how our own Government has been so nonchalant about this. They've been saying that this radiation cannot affect Hawaii or the U.S. West Coast. But I just don't understand how they came to that conclusion so quickly. Projected Wind patterns clearly show a consistent Easterly direction. So Radiation could absolutely reach Hawaii & the U.S. West Coast. This is not nearly as unlikely as our Government is saying. This kind of misinformation really does scare me. I think this is a much worse catastrophe than they're letting on. I don't think it's wise to be so nonchalant. Lets hope & pray this Radiation doesn't affect Hawaii and the U.S. West Coast. God Bless.


----------



## KissMy (Mar 16, 2011)

BolshevikHunter said:


> bigrebnc1775 said:
> 
> 
> > BolshevikHunter said:
> ...



I would not go out in the rain or snow on the west coast until this is over. Precipitation is what will bring the radiation down on you. Otherwise you are likely safe.


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## bigrebnc1775 (Mar 16, 2011)

I realize how most view alex jones but this time he hit the nail on the head.


While protests and civil wars rage in Libya and Bahrain, Obama is keeping himself busy by videotaping his NCAA tournament picks, hitting the golf course for the 61st time in his presidency, and partying with lawmakers during a Chicago Bulls vs. Charlotte Bobcats game.

The most energy Obama could bother to devote to what is fast coming one of the biggest nuclear disasters in history was to make an empty statement about how people could donate to usaid.gov, while labeling the NCAA exercise a "great diversion."

While Japan begs the United States for help to rescue the dire situation at Fukushima, Obama seems more concerned about dressing up nicely to please the media elite at the annual Gridiron Dinner.

Even as the planet faces the threat of a "new Chernobyl on steroids," Obama has chosen to prioritize a speech about "Women's History Month," a White House get-together on "bullying" and a meeting with the Chicago Blackhawks instead of offering any kind of leadership.


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## skeptic (Mar 16, 2011)

LibocalypseNow said:


> I'm actually very surprised at how our own Government has been so nonchalant about this. They've been saying that this radiation cannot affect Hawaii or the U.S. West Coast. But I just don't understand how they came to that conclusion so quickly. Projected Wind patterns clearly show a consistent Easterly direction. So Radiation could absolutely reach Hawaii & the U.S. West Coast. This is not nearly as unlikely as our Government is saying. This kind of misinformation really does scare me. I think this is a much worse catastrophe than they're letting on. I don't think it's wise to be so nonchalant. Lets hope & pray this Radiation doesn't affect Hawaii and the U.S. West Coast. God Bless.



In order to reach the US in any meaningful concentrations the radiation would need to be lifted up high into the atmosphere. Jet streams are between 23K and 55K feet in altitude. Surface air does travel across the oceans but it takes quite a while and the interface with water and rain would scrub most particles from the air.

That is why ocean breezes are clean air instead of being as dirty as Tokyo smog.

But it looks like this is a big deal in Japan and maybe, possibly in Hawaii. But whatever radiation reaches Hawaii, and there will be some, 1/4th as much will reach the west coast.


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## Mini 14 (Mar 16, 2011)

skeptic said:


> LibocalypseNow said:
> 
> 
> > I'm actually very surprised at how our own Government has been so nonchalant about this. They've been saying that this radiation cannot affect Hawaii or the U.S. West Coast. But I just don't understand how they came to that conclusion so quickly. Projected Wind patterns clearly show a consistent Easterly direction. So Radiation could absolutely reach Hawaii & the U.S. West Coast. This is not nearly as unlikely as our Government is saying. This kind of misinformation really does scare me. I think this is a much worse catastrophe than they're letting on. I don't think it's wise to be so nonchalant. Lets hope & pray this Radiation doesn't affect Hawaii and the U.S. West Coast. God Bless.
> ...



All the scenarios I've seen for "worst case" fallout that reaches CA put the levels at around 1500microsv upon reaching the coast. If general precautions are taken, and if those numbers are right, their would be almost no serious effects. Some headaches, nausea, maybe some diarrhea, but mortality at prolonged exposure to that level is only 5%. 

Not pleasant, but not doomsday.


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## skeptic (Mar 16, 2011)

Mini, I won't have any idea what the worst case scenario is until  the fuel rods are finally cooled. 

I read somewhere today that the fuel rod fires actually do sustain a risk of explosions that lift that very heavy radiative material far up into the atmosphere. I have no idea how real that potential is.


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## bigrebnc1775 (Mar 16, 2011)

ATTENTION PLEASE

We fineally are getting some goods news from Japan

Fire at No. 4 Reactor in Fukushima Plant Goes Out 

Japans NHK says a fire that broke out at the number four reactor of the Fukushima Number One nuclear power plant on Wednesday is no longer burning. 

NHK quoted an emergency countermeasures team as saying that the fire broke out at 5:45 a.m. near the northwestern outer wall on the reactor's fourth floor. 

The report said a technician confirmed from a distance that the fire went out on its own after 30 minutes. 

KBS WORLD


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## Chris (Mar 16, 2011)

We won't have a problem here.

The problem is there.

And it's a big problem.


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## Chris (Mar 16, 2011)

Tokyo (CNN) -- Helicopters dumped water Thursday on Unit 3 at Japan's Fukushima Daiichi nuclear plant in the latest attempt to halt the nuclear accident that appeared to be spinning out of control. The helicopters belong to the nation's self-defense forces, public broadcaster NHK reported.

The move came a few hours after the head of the U.S. Nuclear Regulatory Commission testified that spent fuel rods in Unit 4 of Japan's stricken Fukushima Daiichi nuclear plant had been exposed, resulting in the emission of "extremely high" levels of radiation.

"What we believe at this time is that there has been a hydrogen explosion in this unit due to an uncovering of the fuel in the fuel pool," Gregory Jaczko told a House energy and commerce subcommittee hearing Wednesday. "We believe that secondary containment has been destroyed and there is no water in the spent fuel pool, and we believe that radiation levels are extremely high, which could possibly impact the ability to take corrective measures."

Helicopters dump water on nuclear plant in Japan - CNN.com


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## bigrebnc1775 (Mar 16, 2011)

Chris said:


> We won't have a problem here.
> 
> The problem is there.
> 
> And it's a big problem.



How can you be so sure of this?


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## BolshevikHunter (Mar 16, 2011)

KissMy said:


> BolshevikHunter said:
> 
> 
> > bigrebnc1775 said:
> ...



Appreciate the advice my friend. Thank you. ~BH


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## skookerasbil (Mar 16, 2011)

This thread is hysterical............

Just got on here tonight wondering if Chris and Old Rocks have purchased their iodine pills yet!!!

Hard to remember a time where the wool was being pulled over the eyes of the public in such epic fashion. Expect much angst in the reporting over the next several days. Computer models spelling DOOM!!! Of course...........mostly, expect the hysterical environmental k00ks to be on here leading the charge of pronounced alarmism and the end of days.




So did anybody get the over/under on Rocks??? Heard he was predicting like 2 million deaths!!!


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## BolshevikHunter (Mar 16, 2011)

skeptic said:


> LibocalypseNow said:
> 
> 
> > I'm actually very surprised at how our own Government has been so nonchalant about this. They've been saying that this radiation cannot affect Hawaii or the U.S. West Coast. But I just don't understand how they came to that conclusion so quickly. Projected Wind patterns clearly show a consistent Easterly direction. So Radiation could absolutely reach Hawaii & the U.S. West Coast. This is not nearly as unlikely as our Government is saying. This kind of misinformation really does scare me. I think this is a much worse catastrophe than they're letting on. I don't think it's wise to be so nonchalant. Lets hope & pray this Radiation doesn't affect Hawaii and the U.S. West Coast. God Bless.
> ...



It's much to early in this disaster to even make such a claim or assumption bro. You know that, and I know that. Like R.J MacReady said long ago, "I guess we will just sit back and wait to see what happens".  ~BH


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## Zoom-boing (Mar 16, 2011)

skookerasbil said:


> This thread is hysterical............
> 
> Just got on here tonight wondering if Chris and Old Rocks have purchased their iodine pills yet!!!
> 
> ...



You do know that this situation isn't "nothing", right?  While hype is happening and exactly what is going on isn't clear . . . .nonetheless it is very, very, _very_ serious.  You do know this . . . right?


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## Old Rocks (Mar 16, 2011)

Zoom-boing said:


> skookerasbil said:
> 
> 
> > This thread is hysterical............
> ...



Kookybill is a brainless troll that only knows how to make silly little cartoons devoid of humor content.


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## BolshevikHunter (Mar 16, 2011)

skookerasbil said:


> This thread is hysterical............
> 
> Just got on here tonight wondering if Chris and Old Rocks have purchased their iodine pills yet!!!
> 
> ...




And then there are the dumbshit, yes-men like yourself who keep your head stuck in the sand like a fucking robot, eh? Forget Politics, this is a human issue. You useful tools are good for only one thing, and that's nothing more than attempting to keep your fellow sheople herded.  ~BH


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## Maple (Mar 16, 2011)

skookerasbil said:


> This thread is hysterical............
> 
> Just got on here tonight wondering if Chris and Old Rocks have purchased their iodine pills yet!!!
> 
> ...



I agree, the media hyped up 3-mile island, my uncle worked there at the time and stated constantly that there never, ever was ANY danger. BTW no one even got sick. It's ridiculous, but fear sells and people buy into it. You can bet that next week all but the real kooks will have calmed down about this and it won't be news anymore. I wish we would see more relief getting in there as the people sure need food and water, warm clothes and shelter. But, of course, the media is hyping up the nuclear gig and has everyone worked up about it.


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## KissMy (Mar 16, 2011)

There are many ship based power stations in the world. These troubled nuclear power plants are located right on the ocean. There is no excuse for not ordering one of these ships to that shore to connect to the power plants & provide the power need to run the cooling system.









They could have even brought in some smaller generators to replace the failed back-up generators in the amount of time that has elapsed. The Japanese power company & government have failed to do their jobs properly.


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## Maple (Mar 16, 2011)

KissMy said:


> There are many ship based power stations in the world. These troubled nuclear power plants are located right on the ocean. There is no excuse for not ordering one of these ships to that shore to connect to the power plants & provide the power need to run the cooling system.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I would not be so fast to judge, I am betting that they have this under control and have for days, it's the media that hypes this up as fear sells. We will all know for sure in a few days, but after seeing what I have seen with other nuclear plants and the media coverage of them you can bet they blew this one way out of proportion. Don't blame the government, they are attempting to calm the public not create more fear. From what I read earlier the radiation that has leaked amounts to that of a dental x-ray, you get more radiation from being outside for a couple of hours, talking on your cell phone, from the earth. It's nominal , the average radiation a person incurs during one year from nature amounts to 97 chest x-rays and somehow most of us survive that. Everyone just needs to calm down and please don't be popping any iodine pills, they WILL make you sick.


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## skookerasbil (Mar 16, 2011)

BolshevikHunter said:


> skookerasbil said:
> 
> 
> > This thread is hysterical............
> ...




Indeed it is a human issue........the issue of over 10,000, or possibly much more people DEAD.
And people on here are getting fcukking hysterical over a fire or two at a nuclear plant.

If they run out of seawater to cool the rods..............speak to me. This thread is nothing more than people gettng nutty over epic sensationalism from the media.


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## Old Rocks (Mar 16, 2011)

Well, I do believe that ol' Kookybill is truly demonstrating his level of mental abilities once again.


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## KissMy (Mar 16, 2011)

Maple said:


> KissMy said:
> 
> 
> > There are many ship based power stations in the world. These troubled nuclear power plants are located right on the ocean. There is no excuse for not ordering one of these ships to that shore to connect to the power plants & provide the power need to run the cooling system.
> ...



I had been thinking it was just the media blowing this out of proportion because fear sells. But today our top nuclear official said the lack of water in the spent rods pool may now  create so much radiation that it could prevent any more workers from getting close enough to repair this situation. Then our government told everyone to stay 50miles/80km away from the plant. These reactors may not completely melt down & breach containment, but the used fuel rods containment is causing an enormous problem.

I don't think it will kill very many people but it will contaminate a large area. Enough time has lapsed to see that they have dropped the ball on their emergency response.


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## skeptic (Mar 16, 2011)

Maple said:


> I agree, the media hyped up 3-mile island, my uncle worked there at the time and stated constantly that there never, ever was ANY danger. BTW no one even got sick.



Except I knew a former deputy director of the EPA who actually died because of exposure to radiation at 3 mile island. He died of brain cancer about 9 months later. 

Your uncle was dead wrong.


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## Big Fitz (Mar 17, 2011)

skeptic said:


> Maple said:
> 
> 
> > I agree, the media hyped up 3-mile island, my uncle worked there at the time and stated constantly that there never, ever was ANY danger. BTW no one even got sick.
> ...


Prove it was caused by radiation at TMI.  I want to see the coronor's report that says it was directly the cause.


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## KissMy (Mar 17, 2011)

Big Fitz said:


> skeptic said:
> 
> 
> > Maple said:
> ...



CNN reported that there were no deaths from the 3 Mile Island Nuclear Power Plant meltdown.

CNN: How bad is it? Depends on which nuclear expert you ask


> The core meltdown at the Three Mile Island nuclear power plant near Middletown, Pennsylvania, in 1979 caused no injuries or deaths, and only low levels of radiation were found later in plants and animals, experts said.


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## skookerasbil (Mar 17, 2011)

Old Rocks said:


> Well, I do believe that ol' Kookybill is truly demonstrating his level of mental abilities once again.




Hey what can I say s0n???

Im not prone to constantly seek out the most hysterical news outlets to get my information........and lets face it. The environmental k00ks are naturally drawn to only the most gloom and doom public predictions you can find out there. You know these types........a snowstorm is coming and the prediction is about 3 inches and they are at the fcukking store at 6am to load up the basket for the storm of the century. The k00ks see reports of radiation in far away countries and they are out firing up their gay SMARTCARS to grab a few bottles of iodine pills. Somebody like this asshole Chris is likely out in his back yard as we speak building a fcukking underground bomb shelter.......perhaps Rocks is too. At a minimum you know they got store bought shit like gas masks and protective suits.


Hey.........good for you guys.


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## skookerasbil (Mar 17, 2011)

Hey Chris.........how about we send in Gigantor to keep deadly radiation levels down????????


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## Liability (Mar 18, 2011)

Zoom-boing said:


> skookerasbil said:
> 
> 
> > This thread is hysterical............
> ...



He seems so intent on denigrating any hint of alarmist rhetoric that he appears to have forgotten that the situation IS still actually quite serious.

A scenario that doesn't equal "the end of humankind" can still be a true disaster.

And since the Japanese nuclear reactors are still far from under control, the seriousness of the situation is not yet even fully known.

Even if everything goes totally wrong and the problem cannot be fixed, the impact is not going to be anything remotely as dire as the idiocy spewed by Terral, for example.  But it can still be quite horrendous and the total death toll from these meltdowns could get uglier than the probable combination of deaths from the quakes and tsuanmis that just happened.


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## skookerasbil (Mar 18, 2011)

Liability said:


> Zoom-boing said:
> 
> 
> > skookerasbil said:
> ...






*HOLY MOTHER OF GOD*






CNN interviewed a handful of US businessmen this am getting off the plane from Japan. They said, without hesitation, "Oh yeah....Im going back in a few days!!"



Like Ive said in thes forum more than several times. Plenty of people will buy a bag of dog doo at $1,000 a pop if its packaged just right!!!


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## Old Rocks (Mar 18, 2011)

Liability is quite correct. The possibility of a very serious result, and death toll, from the nuclear plants is still high enough that the situation is totally bad cess. As it stands now, there is a certainty that some of the people exposed to the present high levels of radiation at the plant will develop cancers as a result of that exposure. The people working to prevent further disaster realize this and are to be commended for their bravery and dedication to duty.

Denying the seriousness of the situation, and denigrating those who express concern over it may do something for your self image, but to others, it gives you the appearance of a total fool.


----------



## Liability (Mar 18, 2011)

skookerasbil said:


> Liability said:
> 
> 
> > Zoom-boing said:
> ...



What on Earth does the random and probably ignorant decision of some businessmen have to do with this discussion?

The situation may yet be salvageable.   On the other hand, if they don't get this shit under control, it could also get vastly worse.

Recognizing that there are almost certainly (already) some long term environmental problems caused by this disaster, with the likelihood of serious adverse health consequences for people who get too close to that radiation, is hardly alarmism.

I'm not sure what benefit there is in the commentary you are offering.  Seriously.  Are you suggesting "Meh.  It's just a small nuclear reactor partial meltdown? There's nothing to see or to worry about here.  Pfft.  It's nothing."

Seriously?


----------



## polarbear (Mar 19, 2011)

Old Rocks said:


> Liability is quite correct. The possibility of a very serious result, and death toll, from the nuclear plants is still high enough that the situation is totally bad cess. As it stands now, there is a certainty that some of the people exposed to the present high levels of radiation at the plant will develop cancers as a result of that exposure. The people working to prevent further disaster realize this and are to be commended for their bravery and dedication to duty.
> 
> Denying the seriousness of the situation, and denigrating those who express concern over it may do something for your self image, but to others, it gives you the appearance of a total fool.



Where exactly are You digging up this garbage,..?
Where are Your usual stupid URLs?...Or are You making all this shit up Yourself...
Where does it say that 2 technicians will develop cancer?...
Nobody has or will die from radiation, that has been ascertained and reported by everyone from Reuters, BBC etc etc.

Fukushima Daiichi was the oldest reactor and was only 2 weeks away from being shut down and replaced  when the quake hit.
The quake resulted in* NO DAMAGE TO ANY OF THE REACTORS*...that is now also known and has been reported in EVERY MAJOR NEWS OUTLET.

The System automatically responded in each reactor even though they were outdated EXACTLY as it should have  initiated a power shut down.
After the power shut down the stand by Diesel Generators went on line to supply power to the cooling pumps.
Then the tsunami hit, drowned the Diesel Engines, and the cooling pumps stopped.
So, the 8.9 Mag. earthquake had ABSOLUTELY  NO IMPACT...other than initiating the auto-shut down procedure!
*It was the DIESEL EMERGENCY POWER-PLANT THAT FAILED NOT THE NUCLEAR REACTORS
*
Power to the cooling pumps has been restored since then and all cooling pumps are now working.
*None of the 4 reactors have any internal damage...that has now also bee confirmed *
There was and there will be no "melt-down" as assholes like You were hoping.
*The hydrogen gas explosions had NOTHING TO DO WITH THE REACTORS, BUT WRE CAUSED BY THE EXTRA > 1200 FUEL RODS IN THE STORAGE PONDS!
*
*and again, that was because the DIESEL PLANT FAILED AFTER IT HAD BEEN DROWNED under sea water!
*

The "contamination" did not come from the reactors, but from the external cooling ponds.
And the "contamination" in closest vicinity of the plant was Iodine which has a half life of only 8 days.
Also the U.N.-W.H.Org has long since reported that these level were too low to pose any serious health risk.

This crisis is already over, and* retards like You* keep on yapping as if the "worst is still to come"..


Meanwhile the rest of the press aside from reporting on Libya is now writing articles concerning the outrageous exaggerations which had been published concerning this "nuclear catastrophe" in Japan.
...which in the final analysis was* not a nuclear reactor failure at all, but a diesel power-plant failure*...and that in turn came to play, because no-one had considered that diesel engines close to the coast can`t run when submerged under sea water after  an earthquake triggered  tsunami sweeps ashore!
*So cut the crap about how "unsafe" nuclear reactors are*


----------



## American Horse (Mar 19, 2011)

polarbear said:


> Old Rocks said:
> 
> 
> > Liability is quite correct. The possibility of a very serious result, and death toll, from the nuclear plants is still high enough that the situation is totally bad cess. As it stands now, there is a certainty that some of the people exposed to the present high levels of radiation at the plant will develop cancers as a result of that exposure. The people working to prevent further disaster realize this and are to be commended for their bravery and dedication to duty.
> ...



I think you are pretty much right about all of that; but I also believe that nuclear power is now toast.  And by the way there are longstanding immunities in Japanese and international law pertaining to builders of nuclear plants.  But trusting to that is a whole lot like trusting to pre-existing laws regarding oil spills in the gulf of Mexico; or trusting that bond-holders come first in the queue for corporate debt.  The old conventions are out the window since Obama's arrival.

And some people say that presidents are powerless figureheads;  I think it depends on the president.


----------



## American Horse (Mar 19, 2011)

Nuclear Energy Institute - Information on the Japan Earthquake and Reactors in That Region

UPDATE AS OF 8 P.M. EDT, SATURDAY, MARCH 19:
Powered by an emergency diesel generator, pumps are circulating cooling water in the spent fuel pools of reactors 5 and 6 at the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power plant, according to reports. The company also added water to the used fuel pool at reactor 3 after elite firefighters from Tokyo spent 13 hours operating a high-pressure spray truck that pumped seawater into the pool.
The company and response workers were planning to spray water into the used fuel pool at reactor 4 on Sunday.

Electric power lines are connected to reactors 1 and 2, and engineers expected to bring power to the remaining reactors on Sunday, according to the Japan Atomic Industrial Forum. &#8220;We do not know if the water pumps [at Fukushima Daiichi] have been damaged and if they will work when power is restored,&#8221; the International Atomic Energy Agency said.

Tokyo Electric Power Co. reported that holes have been drilled into the ceilings of the buildings that house reactors 5 and 6 to prevent the buildup of hydrogen in the buildings.
Fukushima Daini

All four reactors at Fukushima Daini nuclear power plant have reached cold shutdown conditions with normal cooling.



I have been shocked at the inability of a major power company to get any kind of emergency electrical power rigged to the pumps which were on site. After all the whole fuel heating problem came from that deficiency.  I understand there is a problem in Japan of the Island being split down the middle with the west using 60 Hz. and the east using 50 Hz, but that doesn&#8217;t seem to apply because the division is more one that divides the country north from south across the middle. Regardless, you&#8217;d think that it would be within their skill set and physical and technical capacity to make the proper conversions in a reasonably short time span.

I have watched the Japanese rescue workers, and to me, in some cases they move as if they are robots, or as if in a state of shock.  You might see a crew walking through debris, one man pick up a large panel of some sort, and instead of just all hands tossing these things aside (after all there is already debris scattered everywhere about) instead he will methodically turn and hand it to the man behind him, who will turn and repeat the seemingly useless charade.

People in shelters are not getting their needs attended to; in some cases there are no sanitary facilities, no provision for food, and for heat.  In one case I heard about a fight broke out outside the shelter building about that very situation. This is sad to see.


----------



## polarbear (Mar 20, 2011)

But just because You are being quoted here first,* I had no intention to include You*
That`s just the way the forum`s web-site scipt works, I click the quote button and that person will be quoted first.
With the wild exaggerations* I had someone other than You in my crosshairs*
I just wanted to respond to You about President Obama, and the nuclear future being toast also, but further below



American Horse said:


> I think you are pretty much right about all of that; but I also believe that nuclear power is now toast.  And by the way there are longstanding immunities in Japanese and international law pertaining to builders of nuclear plants.  But trusting to that is a whole lot like trusting to pre-existing laws regarding oil spills in the gulf of Mexico; or trusting that bond-holders come first in the queue for corporate debt.  The old conventions are out the window since Obama's arrival.
> 
> And some people say that presidents are powerless figureheads;  I think it depends on the president.



My main issue is with these wild exaggerations, which come exclusively form people with zero technical background...like this jerk here:


> Quote: Originally Posted by Old Rocks View Post
> Liability is quite correct. The possibility of a very serious result, *and death toll, from the nuclear plants *is still high enough that the situation is totally bad cess. As it stands now, there is a certainty that some of the people exposed to the present high levels of radiation at the plant will develop cancers as a result of that exposure.



Total death toll  in the entire complex 6, ...5 from the hydrogen gas explosion , 1 was a crane accident. Not a single person died from radiation.

As far as the highest radiation dosage received is concerned, again no matter where You look inside SERIOUS News channels..:


> OSAKA&#8212;Six workers...
> They have been exposed to more than* 100 millisieverts *of radiation, an official at the Tokyo Electric Power Co. said, adding he had no information on what tasks they were assigned to.
> 
> "There has been no adverse effect on their health," Takeo Iwamoto said. It was not immediately known if they had been reassigned to different tasks.



And indeed, why should there be any...:
Sievert - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


> 0 &#8211; 0.25 Sv (0 &#8211; 250 mSv):* None*



But You know who..: 


> there is a certainty that some of the people exposed to the present high levels of radiation at the plant will develop cancers as a result of that exposure.



As far as "nuclear power is now toast. "...I`m not so sure!....:
Even in "Nuclear Angst" ridden Germany...after Chernobyl, where the Reactor itself blew wide open there is already serious opposition to the hasty decision to shut down 6 of the oldest reactors following the earthquake in Japan...and the rest of the EU will continue with nuclear power as usual. The only thing they have agreed on are some more stress testing of the existing facilities.
and in North America...? Canada Your neighbor will not change anything an continue building and selling *Candu *reactors world wide.
What Obama would *want to do* or not do,concerning nuclear power, I would not even try guess!  But I do know what he* can`t do*, and that is shutting down nuclear power, any more than he* could stop drilling for offshore oil.*..regardless how many more "Gulf Oil Disasters" might happen.
Talk is cheap, and paper is patient, reality is none of the aforementioned.
Just don`t read into this that I`m "anti Obama"...
I live in Canada, Canada does not have to depend on foreign countries to supply energy.
So concerning energy policy, we can afford to have a wait and see attitude towards Obama`s Presidency.
*But it does appear to us Canadians*, that this cat already blew all 9 lives with the health care legislation. 
That may be so or not so...no telling for sure
So, we wait and see..*.time will tell and time flies...*
Next Presidential election is Tuesday, November 6, 2012, and it`s already end of March 2011


----------



## skookerasbil (Mar 20, 2011)

Dumbass hysterical environmental bozo's..........dont even realize a vast majority of those people are in much greater danger of developing many different forms of cancer from cooking with microwave ovens..........especially thyroid cancer. Just a fact ( although its a different type of radiation)


----------



## polarbear (Mar 20, 2011)

skookerasbil said:


> Dumbass hysterical environmental bozo's..........dont even realize a vast majority of those people are in much greater danger of developing many different forms of cancer from cooking with microwave ovens..........especially thyroid cancer. Just a fact ( although its a different type of radiation)



That`s because environmental bozos don`t know 1 single square inch of the technical territory behind the news media buzzwords they love to use.
"free radicals" is one of those, yes free radicals cause cancer, but not one of the enviro-vegetarians object to benzoylperoxide in flour and bread. BPO is used as a catalyst to plyomerize ploy-ester....You could go on and on with what these bozos don`t know...but they go on an on how a spray can rips gigantic holes in the ozone layer,  how a fractional ppm increase of CO2 is melting 2 mile thick ice sheets in the arctic and how ~100 milli-Sieverts inside a containment building next to spend fuel rods is nuking Japan.
How the failure of a Tsunami flooded Diesel Power plant on a coast in Japan "proves" the "perils of nuclear power" inside continental North America....and so on and on...
They are already jubilantly celebrating the end of nuclear power.
Meanwhile :
Fukushima-Katastrophe: Japans Bevölkerung fürchtet verstrahlte Lebensmittel - SPIEGEL ONLINE - Nachrichten - Panorama

Translated:
Reactor blocks 5 + 6 have now also been stabilized,  reactors 1 +2 will be reconnected to the power grid just as soon as #3 and 4 have the same status.

Debatte in Großbritannien: Tories träumen von der Atom-Renaissance - SPIEGEL ONLINE - Nachrichten - Politik 

Britain`s officials  have announced , quoting Winston Churchill "Keep calm and carry on", that nuclear power will remain as it is the main component of GB`s power grid.

And last not least the "radiation contaminated food" in Japan..:
Fukushima-Katastrophe: Japans Bevölkerung fürchtet verstrahlte Lebensmittel - SPIEGEL ONLINE - Nachrichten - Panorama


> Die kontaminierten Proben stammten aus drei Präfekturen, aus denen bisher keine derartigen Problemfälle gemeldet wurden. In Taiwan wurden am Samstag radioaktiv belastete Bohnen aus Japan gefunden. Die Werte lagen deutlich unter den erlaubten Grenzwerten und waren damit nicht gesundheitsschädlich, wie die Behörden mitteilten.



This one merits word for word translation...:
The contaminated samples originated from 3 prefects. Taiwan has analyzed "radioactive" bean samples and reports that all samples were far below allowable limits and *pose no health risk contrary to previous reports.*

All that has been in the international media channels, along with minute by minute updates @ Reuter`s yet as You say the bozos keep on shrieking and freaking.
...hormonal imbalance I suspect, can be remedied by feeding opposite sex  hormones to disturbed individuals  who can`t make up their mind what they want to be.


----------



## California Girl (Mar 20, 2011)

According to latest reports (and we all know how fabulously accurate the media has been on this... not), two of the six reactors are now safe. Only one is still causing major concerns. However, everything seems to be on track for the whole site to be made safe. They may well have to 'do a Chernobyl' and bury the whole place but, currently, it appears the risk of a meltdown is fading fast.


----------



## polarbear (Mar 20, 2011)

American Horse said:


> Nuclear Energy Institute - Information on the Japan Earthquake and Reactors in That Region
> 
> UPDATE AS OF 8 P.M. EDT, SATURDAY, MARCH 19:
> Powered by an emergency diesel generator, pumps are circulating cooling water in the spent fuel pools of reactors 5 and 6 at the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power plant,
> I have watched the Japanese rescue workers, and to me, in some cases they move as if they are robots, or as if in a state of shock.  You might see a crew walking through debris, one man pick up a large panel of some sort, and instead of just all hands tossing these things aside (after all there is already debris scattered everywhere about) instead he will methodically turn and hand it to the man behind him, who will turn and repeat the seemingly useless charade.



I have edited away some of Your lines, that perhaps I should not have,...because that may give the wrong impression. Because You are one of the few who has the priorities right, and that is the welfare of the Japanese people!
But I wanted to address the technical problems reconnecting a partially destroyed site to a power grid. It is not a simple task and You have to proceed very methodically much like a pre-take off procedure, else You fry things beyond repair.
These pumps are not single phase 1 hp motors and even if You have power available You also have to ascertain that all "delta/star" start up circuits are in order + many other things. I prefer crews that proceed like robots in such cases over "piece of cake jocks" any day. I wish I could find that video again which was posted in the German media.
It showed a good example how a "robotic" Japanese coast guard crew calmly maneuvered their cutter through 2 gigantic oncoming tsunami waves a few hundred meters off shore.
By the way, the 50 Hertz power grid is the more modern of the 2 (50 vs 60 Hertz).
Because with 50 Hertz over long distance there is significantly less transmission line power loss.
The entire German power grid has opted for 50 Hertz after WW2 when everything had to be re-constructed.


----------



## Chris (Mar 20, 2011)

Mmm............radioactive spinach....

TOKYO (Kyodo)--Spinach with radioactive iodine 27 times more than the government-regulated limit was found in the city of Hitachi in Ibaraki Prefecture, more than 100 kilometers south of the crippled Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power plant, but the radiation levels do not affect human health, local authorities said Sunday.

In 1 kilogram of spinach grown in open air in the city, 54,000 becquerels of iodine was detected, exceeding the 2,000 becquerel limit set by the government's preliminary regulation under the food sanitation law, the Ibaraki prefectural government said.

The level of cesium in the spinach grown in the city was also higher at 1,931 becquerels, compared to the limit of 500 becquerels.

The level of iodine in the spinach grown in open air in the Kitaibaraki city in Ibaraki, around 75 kilometers south of the nuclear plant, was 24,000 becquerels, 12 times more than the limit of 2,000 becquerels. A cesium level of 690 becquerels, 190 more than the limit, was also found in the spinach, which was taken for investigation Friday.

Ibaraki Gov. Masaru Hashimoto said it will continue to ask each municipality to voluntarily halt shipments of spinach grown in the prefecture, although there is no risk to human health.

2011/03/20 23:26 - Spinach With Radiation 27 Times Higher Than Limit Found In Japan


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## polarbear (Mar 20, 2011)

California Girl said:


> According to latest reports (and we all know how fabulously accurate the media has been on this... not), two of the six reactors are now safe. Only one is still causing major concerns. However, everything seems to be on track for the whole site to be made safe. They may well have to 'do a Chernobyl' and bury the whole place but, currently, it appears the risk of a meltdown is fading fast.



There was no "Chernobyl" in Japan...*in Chernobyl the REACTOR BLEW UP,* *and not a single piece of any of the fuel rods remained intact in the post explosion crater afterwards.
*...thus the only option there was to "bury" what was left

*In Japan not a single one of the reactors were damaged.*
The problems were the  fuel rod storage basins which have absolutely nothing to do with the reactor itself,
New rods for a reactor and spent rods which had been withdrawn form a reactor are stored there .
Nothing will be buried there "Chernobyl style" quite the opposite, these reactors will go back on-line, after the overhaul which had been scheduled in 2 weeks just before the earthquake hit. These were japan`s oldest and most out-dated reactors and they had been scheduled for shut-down and re-furbishing.
*This should have been better highlighted by the media,...because this is the reason why there were over 1200 fuel rods in these cooling basins where the problem was after the quake.
They had begun withdrawing these from the reactors, because they were about to be shut down *



*This freak quake, had it happened 2 weeks later, there would have been nothing to report about any "nuclear accident" in Japan *

And even now after this quake, Japan will most likely proceed as planned...
But I `m certain they will seriously re-think where the_ new backup Diesel Power Plant_ for the cooling pumps will be..*.and I am sure the new one  will NOT be drowned by any future tsunamis after this fiasco 
*

*Most countries that use nuclear power plants have realized by now, that it`s not our nuclear technology that needs an overhaul,
 but that our news media and the way they "report facts" is what needs to be seriously overhauled!*


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## Ravi (Mar 20, 2011)

It wasn't a freak quake.

Let me guess, you have a lot of money invested in nuclear reactors.


----------



## polarbear (Mar 20, 2011)

I don`t like gruesome details,....but....:
Any engineer who actually has to do things instead of just talking about it has no choice but to consider even the most gruesome details.

*Japan April 20, 2011*

Fukushima-Katastrophe: Japans Bevölkerung fürchtet verstrahlte Lebensmittel - SPIEGEL ONLINE - Nachrichten - Panorama


> *8450* Todesfälle seien bestätigt, zudem werden knapp 13.000 Menschen vermisst.
> 
> Ein grausiges Detail: Die Krematorien hätten kaum die Möglichkeit, *all die Toten zu verbrennen, weil die Kapazitäten nicht ausreichten und Brennstoff fehle, meldet Kyodo. In Japan sind Einäscherungen üblich.* Einige Kommunen empfehlen jetzt aus hygienischen Gründen Erdbestattungen.



Translation...in Japan traditional burials are by cremation. There are so far (sadly) 8450 confirmed dead. The cremation capacity of Japan`s crematoriums can not keep pace and Japan has begun with the burial of victims.

In 2011 man has already landed on the moon. We have nuclear technology, airplanes that can fly @ Mach 3+ and so on

The *same newspaper published not very long ago *the followig articel about the pre 1945 Holocaust:

About* Nazi Germany pre 1945*

DER SPIEGEL*40/1993 - Protokolle des Todes



> Tatsächlich waren es weit mehr, die im größten NS-Vernichtungslager umkamen. Wie viele genau, wird wohl nie exakt zu ermitteln sein; die Zahl der Opfer kann nur geschätzt werden. Die KZ-Verwaltung hatte Häftlingslisten *verbrann*t und etliche Todestransporte namentlich nicht registriert.* Daß es nachweislich 800 000, *wahrscheinlich aber weit über ei



*"verbrannt" =cremated*

Which in essence says, that... before 1945 the few coal fired crematoriums in Auschwitz had no problems to let over 800 000 "zyklon-B" gassed victims disappear as ashes in no time at all,* at a pace of over 4000 per day.*

So what is real and what is "memorex" with our "News Media"...?
*Yes it`s gruesome, but it`s the media that revel in it, not me!
*

I just wonder when President Obama will pay homage to the victims in Japan, 







say at* any Crematorium in Japan* there as he had in the "re-constructed" Auschwitz cremas..."reconstructed" by the Soviets, because there were none...the Nazi`s allegedly let those ovens as magically disappear as 6 Million Jewes


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## Liability (Mar 20, 2011)

> Status of Fukushima nuclear power plants Sunday midnight
> 
> TOKYO, March 20, Kyodo
> 
> ...


 -- Status of Fukushima nuclear power plants Sunday midnight | Kyodo News

Bottom line so far?  

This story isn't yet written.  We can hope for the best, but plenty of bad (very bad) stuff has already occurred.  (I highlighted what seems to be the worst to date.)  My highlighting does not even include the leakage of radioactive materials.  We know that some of the spinach in Japan now has 27 *times* the permissible level of radiation.    We know that some water in Japan has now been contaminated with some trace amounts of radioactive iodine.   It's not at all unclear where that comes from.  The implications are a lot larger, I believe, than the news has so far reported.  The implications are pretty dark.

If it's not "as bad" as Chernobyl, so far, great.  But being almost that bad (with multiple partial meltdowns) is not exactly heartwarming good news, either.  

Exaggerating how bad it is would be stupid.  I agree.

Minimizing how bad it is is just as stupid, though.

It really isn't a sin to admit that this is a bad situation with plenty of potential to get worse.  For example, can anybody tell me what happens if they get hit with a powerful 8.+ aftershock at those reactors (even without a new tsuanami) tomorrow?   Is there any valid reason to actually believe we are safely out of the woods?


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## polarbear (Mar 20, 2011)

Ravi said:


> It wasn't a freak quake.
> 
> Let me guess, you have a lot of money invested in nuclear reactors.



*No, wrong guess!* Typical though for people like You. When caught in their own lies they try salvage what can be salvaged from the lie, by attacking those who caught them in their lies.
My recommendation to the likes of You, don`t play checkers against people who mastered chess!
*No, I did not invest money in any nuclear power plants.* I am only a retired military engineer and most of us had to absolve hands on training courses how to deal with nuclear power plants in a war or a natural catastrophe.







I did my service in the arctic, 6 months tours of duty and six month off where I could pursue whatever I wanted.
So I drove heavy transport trucks, touring the USA and getting paid 50 cents per mile.
On one of these trips I had to haul radio active Aluminum which was salvaged and melted down from scrapped B52 in California. I had to use a specially shielded trailer for that.
The bill of laden stipulated that I had to run this load to a warehouse in Ohio, because the driver who ran this load was not allowed to be exposed longer than that to this Aluminum.
On the bill of laden was also a copy of a fax where the end user had signed that this Aluminum was used to be re-cast into boat props.
Problem was, I arrived in Ohio on Saturday and the terminal was closed. From the load broker I found out to where the end user`s terminal who had signed this fax is.
He told me again that this  load was supposed to go by "day cabs" from Ohio to there because of my exposure time limit to that load...but I ran it through to the end user`s terminal  myself instead of dropping my trailer and waiting for another re-load .

*Take a wild guess like You were trying to guess if I invest money in nuclear power plants, who the end user actually was!*

It was a plant that has no idea whatsoever how to make boat props,...i*t was a plant that makes Aluminum soft drink and beer cans for almost everybody from Pepsi, to Miller Beer.*

I got one fuck of a reception when I arrived and was even threatened with a law suit...because I showed up with a trailer, "Hazmat"  radiation placards all round at the unload terminal of a plant that makes cans for soft drinks and breweries.
Up till then every load has been reloaded at the terminal where I was supposed to stop, into ordinary trailers, with no warning placards and then it was delivered to the end user.
One of the owners from the re-load terminals even drove to the end user terminal,  came to my truck and screamed his head off. 
But I could understand only every other word...because...: It`s also politically totally incorrect of me to mention that he and his co-owner were both turban wearing Hindus,..*.but hey I can`t change reality!*


I still have copies I made en route at a Flying J truck stop of all the bills of Laden...

*And people like You accuse people like us to be in a conflict of interest...*be that with man made "Global Warming"...or a "Nuclear Holocaust" in Japan,...or minus the Nuclear a "Holocaust" in Auschwitz!

*I f You only knew what really goes on,* You`ld shut Your mouth maybe a few years after You manage to close it....*again if You knew what`s really being done instead of what`s being said!*

*Instead of trying to guess if I have money invested in nuclear power, why don`t You inform yourself where Hillary Clinton and Michelle Obama have their money invested...*

*It`s all public record!*


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## Ravi (Mar 20, 2011)

Again, it wasn't a freak earthquake. 

And pretending that there was never any real danger is ridiculous. The Japanese are apparently doing their best but since the beginning there has been a very real danger of a nuclear meltdown (see Liability's post above).


> The operation to connect power to the No. 3 and No. 4 reactors and turn  on the standard cooling systems is expected to last at least several  days. Until then, some nuclear experts believe the rods are at risk of  full meltdown, which could damage the containment vessel and cause a  radiation release that would dwarf those that have taken place so far.


Japan Nuclear Dangers Linger Despite Progress - WSJ.com

Until this is completely under control it is asinine to pretend this is just a typical day at the park.


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## Ravi (Mar 20, 2011)

btw, it's bill of_ lading_, fuckwit, not bill of_ laden_.


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## dilloduck (Mar 20, 2011)

Ravi said:


> Again, it wasn't a freak earthquake.
> 
> And pretending that there was never any real danger is ridiculous. The Japanese are apparently doing their best but since the beginning there has been a very real danger of a nuclear meltdown (see Liability's post above).
> 
> ...



How about extremely rare ?


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## skookerasbil (Mar 20, 2011)

Ravi said:


> Again, it wasn't a freak earthquake.
> 
> And pretending that there was never any real danger is ridiculous. The Japanese are apparently doing their best but since the beginning there has been a very real danger of a nuclear meltdown (see Liability's post above).
> 
> ...




"......wasnt a freak earthquake......."


Thats right............9.0 magnatude quakes happen every other week in Japan!!!


Ravi..........I think you'll be the first member to 50K posts. God bless you sweetie..............hope you stay around for another 50K more. Without the infinately absurd shit you post on these forums, this place would be boring as hell.


ps.....did you do any reasearch on the Effexor XR???


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## Ravi (Mar 20, 2011)

dilloduck said:


> Ravi said:
> 
> 
> > Again, it wasn't a freak earthquake.
> ...


Rare, but not unheard of...you don't mean to say that polarbare was hyping?


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## polarbear (Mar 20, 2011)

Ravi said:


> dilloduck said:
> 
> 
> > Ravi said:
> ...



Pretty funny how You shot Your footsies after "bill of lading"...says so no-where on the paperwork a trucker has ...also I`m typink here while my 2 Year Old great gransson sits on my lap and wants to play piano on my keyboard...what`s Your excuse for:"polarbare " or was that supposed to have been a "witty" joke.
Have You ever been to the pole or seen a bear other than on TV?
And 8.9 was not a freak quake?...OKay then "extremely rare" suits You better?
What exactly was I hyping...? By stating the media have hyped this beyond any reasonable limits and *fruitcakes*



*like You ate it hook line & sinker!*



Ravi said:


> First the women and children, then the non-essential personnel, then the essential personnel.
> 
> Voluntary at the moment.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zAo7YlU-eWk&feature=player_embedded





Ravi said:


> *Japan's nukes...worse case scenario*
> 
> I don't know anything about nukes...so what happens if they can't get the cooling systems working again?





> Ravi said:
> 
> 
> > The warnings were stark and issued repeatedly as far back as 1972: If  the cooling systems ever failed at a Mark 1 nuclear reactor, the primary  containment vessel surrounding the reactor would probably burst as the  fuel rods inside overheated. Dangerous radiation would spew into the  environment.
> ...


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## Chris (Mar 20, 2011)

Nuclear power is safe.

Until something goes wrong.


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## Old Rocks (Mar 20, 2011)

Just for Bipolar.

The air control tower in a major German city was giving instuctions to a Lufthansa incoming flight. The pilot answered in German. The controler immedietly stated, "answer in English, please". 

The pilot, in German again, stated, " I am flying a German airplane, for a German company, over a German city, why the hell should I have to use English?"

A voice came over the radio, a pronounced clipped English accent, "Because you lost the bloody war, bastard!".


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## Old Rocks (Mar 20, 2011)

Ravi said:


> dilloduck said:
> 
> 
> > Ravi said:
> ...



Actually, not that rare.

Discovery News : Discovery Channel

March 6, 2008 -- The average frequency of catastrophic, magnitude 9 or greater earthquakes around the world is at about three per century, according to a new study. 

That's despite the fact that there have been five such quakes in the last half century -- a cluster that includes the deadly 2004 rupture offshore of northern Sumatra. 

The new estimate is lower than previous ones, but there is a dark side to the new study: It removes certain limits on where such quakes can occur.


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## polarbear (Mar 20, 2011)

Old Rocks said:


> Just for Bipolar.
> 
> 
> A voice came over the radio, a pronounced clipped English accent, "Because you lost the bloody war, bastard!".



Really..then tell me who won it?
You might get into an argument there with Russia, England, France, Australia, Poland, India, shit...You want the whole list?
And it took 5 years against an army which at it`s peak was only a fraction what the Soviets alone had...and we almost got the better of You all,...check out the V2`s and the status of the German nuclear program near war`s end.


Wanna se what a Turkey shoot the ME 262`s made out of Your bomber formations and any of the fighter planes?
Lucky for You we decided to deploy these not sooner...it`s not as if we did not have any!
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=noayWZWEmys"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=noayWZWEmys[/ame]

And how upset they got in the States when Klaus Fuchs went after "fat boy" was finished and then went on into the Soviet Union, to do their "Manhattan" project

Your "daddy" who forbade You to learn German was a lot closer to a nuclear "catastrophe" than You or anybody will ever be threatened by nuclear power plants in North America, even if earthquakes like the Japanese 8.9 R were nothing unusual.

You like jokes?...
How many of *Your* relatives fit into a Volkswagen?
....60000 in the ashtray, 5930000 into the glove-box + trashcan and the remaining 10000 were converted to soap to wash the car afterwards.


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## ScienceRocks (Mar 21, 2011)

yes, freak quake it was. It was far bigger then it should of been.


A quake of this size usually has a rupture length of at least 480 km (300 mi) *and requires a long, relatively straight fault line. Because the plate boundary and subduction zone in this region is not very straight, it is unusual for the magnitude of an earthquake to exceed 8.5; the magnitude of this earthquake was a surprise to some seismologists.[34]* The hypocentral region of this earthquake extends from offshore Iwate Prefecture to offshore Ibaraki Prefecture.[35] The Japanese Meteorological Agency said that the earthquake may have ruptured the fault zone from Iwate to Ibaraki with a length of 500 km (310 mi) and a width of 200 km (120 mi).[36][37] Analysis showed that this earthquake consisted of a set of three events.[38] The earthquake may have had a mechanism similar to that of another large earthquake in 869 with an estimated surface wave magnitude (Ms) of 8.6, which also created a large tsunami.[39] Other major earthquakes with tsunamis struck the Sanriku Coast region in 1896 and in 1933.


2011 T


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## Ravi (Mar 21, 2011)

Polarbear: nice little meltdown. I have no idea who you are and I have no interest in knowing.


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## Ravi (Mar 21, 2011)

A spokesman for Japan's Nuclear and Industrial Safety Agency said the  smoke was detected in mid-afternoon and that workers were "temporarily"  evacuated until the cause can be determined. He said the smoke was  coming from the area of the Number 3 reactor, one of two reactors which  are  believed to have suffered damage to the containment chambers  surrounding their nuclear cores. 

Authorities said earlier that  two of the six reactors at the  Fukushima complex are now stabilized and that progress has been made in  restoring power lines so that water can be pumped to the others. But the  government says it may be days before power is restored to the Number 2  reactor, which also is thought to have suffered damage to its  containment chamber. Serious problems also remain at the number 4  reactor.

Workers Evacuated as Smoke Rises From Japanese Nuclear Plant | East Asia and Pacific | English


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## California Girl (Mar 21, 2011)

Ravi said:


> Polarbear: nice little meltdown. I have no idea who you are and I have no interest in knowing.



Hmmm. You causing meltdowns to destroy the Polarbear, Ravi? *tsk, tsk* You are a bad person. I just hope you didn't neg him 4 times in 5 minutes. That would be really cruel.


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## Liability (Mar 21, 2011)

polarbear said:


> Old Rocks said:
> 
> 
> > Just for Bipolar.
> ...



Wow, Polar:  You really are a douche.


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## Ravi (Mar 21, 2011)

There are several things about this response that I just don't understand and I would be willing to bet the USA would handle it much better.

Why did they dither around with dropping balloons of water and crowd control hoses before resorting to fire fighter's water cannons? Why didn't they start with them?

And this:



> In another setback, the plant's operator said Monday it had just  discovered that some of the cooling system's key pumps at the complex's  troubled Unit 2 are no longer functional  meaning replacements have to  be brought in. Tokyo Electric Power Co. said it had placed emergency  orders for new pumps, but how long it would take for them to arrive was  unclear.


No quick fix seen at Japan's nuclear plant - Yahoo! News

Tepco and/or the Japanese government has been saying for at least a week that the pumps are probably damaged...why don't they have back up pumps standing by?


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## k2skier (Mar 21, 2011)

polarbear said:


> Ravi said:
> 
> 
> > dilloduck said:
> ...


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## bree8377 (Mar 21, 2011)

This website has really good updates about all of the nuclear stuff that's going on in Japan, incase anybody was interested or wanted to keep up to date. 
*Edited*


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## Intense (Mar 21, 2011)

bree8377 said:


> This website has really good updates about all of the nuclear stuff that's going on in Japan, incase anybody was interested or wanted to keep up to date.


 

NC Nuke | Advocates for a Safe Nuclear Future


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## USAMomma (Mar 21, 2011)

Something to think about this whole mess, not just the people but all of the animals who are in danger, suffering, have been killed by this.

The shear scale of the distaster is incomprehensible. People will be suffering from so much shock in Japan. And the animals will be totally shocked too. Recovery for all will be a very long process. I wish I could be over there helping out in some way as I should think many do. I can't think why unclaimed pets would be gassed unless it's to do with finance and/or not enough places to keep them until homes are found. The whole thing for the animals is just awful. I had a look for some links to animal charities who are trying/going to help over there if anyone wants to see:
Update On Pet Rescue Efforts in Japan
http://www.petcaptai&#8203;n.com/blog/cat/updat&#8203;e-pet-rescue-efforts&#8203;-japan

Rescue Groups Race To Save Japans Pets
http://www.globalani&#8203;mal.org/...race-to&#8203;-save-japans-pets/32&#8203;856/

Which brings me to this topic...
Be Prepared: Emergency Plan For Your Pets

The devastation in Japan this week is a sobering reminder of how everything can change in a moment, and the harrowing images beg the question: How prepared are you for a natural disaster? Here is an excellent article for pet guardians on what we need to know and do to care for our furry family members in the event of an emergency.  Global Animal
http://www.globalani&#8203;mal.org/...gency&#8203;-plan-for-your-pets/&#8203;32198/


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## skookerasbil (Mar 21, 2011)

Ravi said:


> Polarbear: nice little meltdown. I have no idea who you are and I have no interest in knowing.





Hey Polar..........can you stop laughing bro????

Like this idiot has any time to meet anybody??!!!!

When you're making 100 posts/day on these forums, pretty sure you are spared from ever having to meet her.


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## Old Rocks (Mar 21, 2011)

Well, Kooky, looks like you have found a soul brother.


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## Ravi (Mar 21, 2011)

Good news.

Radioactive Milk Only A Danger After 58,000 Glasses : Shots - Health Blog : NPR


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## ScienceRocks (Mar 21, 2011)

k2skier said:


> polarbear said:
> 
> 
> > Ravi said:
> ...


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## westwall (Mar 21, 2011)

Ravi said:


> btw, it's bill of_ lading_, fuckwit, not bill of_ laden_.






If you had bothered to figure it out English is Polarbears second language, though I must say it is oftimes better then your command of it!


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## westwall (Mar 21, 2011)

Chris said:


> Nuclear power is safe.
> 
> Until something goes wrong.






Nothing in life is safe.  You're far more likely to be killed walking across the street then by radiation from a nuclear accident.....by orders of magnitude.


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## Ravi (Mar 22, 2011)

westwall said:


> Ravi said:
> 
> 
> > btw, it's bill of_ lading_, fuckwit, not bill of_ laden_.
> ...


Yes...apparently he is a Nazi that is proud of the Nazi run genocide.

What I find odd is he that he has champions on this message board.

But that is totally off topic.


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## Old Rocks (Mar 22, 2011)

Well, there seem to be a lot of closet Nazi's here. 

Odd that almost to the man, they have been downplaying the potential of this nuclear accident. Perhaps they really want to see it go bad. Kind of like ol' Rush, accuse everybody else of the emotions you harbor. 

Looks like they are beginning to get a handle on some of the reactors, but one of the pools is again near boiling. This whole thing is kind of like the Perils of Pauline. Just when you think that things are improving, something else starts going wrong. 

We need nuclear power as part of the mix for future clean power, but we are going to have to seriously rethink about what kind of reactors. I have seen articles that claim that a thorium reactor not only cannot 'melt down' but would 'burn' the waste that we now have in abundance. Not being a physicist, I cannot say whether this is true or not, but if it is, we need to get cracking on that.

The situation in Japan proves that the present reactors present an unacteptable risk. Murphy's Law.


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## Zoom-boing (Mar 22, 2011)

Old Rocks said:


> Well, there seem to be a lot of closet Nazi's here.
> 
> Odd that almost to the man, they have been downplaying the potential of this nuclear accident. Perhaps they really want to see it go bad. Kind of like ol' Rush, accuse everybody else of the emotions you harbor.
> 
> ...



If they are having so much trouble controlling this thing from boiling and such . . . can they dump cement over it?  I thought I read somewhere that that would resolve the heating problems?  Or are they still trying to salvage the reactors (I thought once seawater was used the reactors were a lost cause?)


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## Old Rocks (Mar 22, 2011)

Everything that I have read thus far states that all of the reactors are ruined for further service. As for the cement in the pools, I think the problem is getting it there. 

Traker would know far more on this than most here.


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## westwall (Mar 22, 2011)

Ravi said:


> westwall said:
> 
> 
> > Ravi said:
> ...






Uhhhh, no, but nice try.  PB is about as anti Nazi as they come.  More so than not a few of the lefties on this board who espouse views that would have made Rheinhard Heydrich proud.


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## westwall (Mar 22, 2011)

Old Rocks said:


> Well, there seem to be a lot of closet Nazi's here.
> 
> Odd that almost to the man, they have been downplaying the potential of this nuclear accident. Perhaps they really want to see it go bad. Kind of like ol' Rush, accuse everybody else of the emotions you harbor.
> 
> ...






No, it shows that the old reactors can take quite a hit and not do too damn bad.  These are 40 year old reactors.  Just imagine how much better the new ones are.  The reactors in Japan are toast.  They have been giving trouble for years as it is, but that is more due to human factors (allways an issue) and the wear and tear of decades.

The radiation is coming from the cooling pools that hold the spent fuel rods, not from the reactors themselves.  The cooling pools have lost the water and that happened when the concrete structure blew up from a buildup of hydrogen gas.  The actual reactor structures are intact.

The reason why we are trying to beat down your hysterical musings is because they are just that hysterical rantings.  No one is likely to die from radiation at this plant.  The worst case scenario said that 400 could die if they weren't evacuated.  Well the Japanese have been evacuated so no one is likely to perish, thankfully.

In a few months the ionising radiation will have diminished to the point that cleanup can begin with no danger to the workers provided simple measures are taken to safeguard their health.

The media have whipped this up into a frenzy because they are even more clueless then the people who watch them.   Here is a simple primer for those who don't know.  If you are near a major nuclear accident or blast and get a heavy dose of ionising radiation you're in deep trouble.  On the other hand if you don't get dosed by ionising radiation (gamma rays) and instead are around isotopes with long halflives like Strontium 90 or Cesium 137 (half lives 28+ years) you can clean the radiation off with soap and water.   Don't eat it or drink it, but you can protect yourself from the radiation that they emit with a sheet of paper.


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## westwall (Mar 22, 2011)

Zoom-boing said:


> Old Rocks said:
> 
> 
> > Well, there seem to be a lot of closet Nazi's here.
> ...






The involved reactors are toast.  They are not what is causing the problem though.  The cooling pools that contain the spent fuel rods are what they are bombarding with water.  As far as the reactors go, the whole plant will most probably be decomissioned as it has been plagued with problems for years.


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## martybegan (Mar 22, 2011)

westwall said:


> Zoom-boing said:
> 
> 
> > Old Rocks said:
> ...



The two oldest reactors were due for decomissoning at the end of the month anyway (sad timing there). I dont think we really know the core conditions until they can get something inside (robotic?) to look at the fuel rods. The majority of the radiation may be from the spent fuel rods.


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## monendo (Mar 22, 2011)

I am not a nuclear scientist but from what I have been seeing on the news the problem at the reactor is that because the pumps are not working the pools of water are drying up. Why don't they build these reactors below see level with a pipe or channel leading out to the ocean and in the event of a emergency like this simply open values a flood reactor with water preventing a melt down. Can anyone tell me why this would not work?


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## Synthaholic (Mar 22, 2011)

California Girl said:


> Ravi said:
> 
> 
> > Polarbear: nice little meltdown. I have no idea who you are and I have no interest in knowing.
> ...



  Wow.  The sheer gall is astounding.


----------



## Chris (Mar 22, 2011)

As for the plant's six reactors, Nuclear and Industrial Safety Agency official Hidehiko Nishiyama said Wednesday that power had been connected to reactor No. 1 and fire trucks were being used to inject seawater into the core to cool it.

The International Atomic Energy Agency reported Tuesday that coolant in the unit was covering only about half of the fuel rods in reactor Nos., 1, 2 and 3 and that Japanese officials believe their cores have been damaged.

In the No. 2 reactor, power had not been restored, but the core was stable and workers were continuing to inject seawater into the spent-fuel storage pool, he said.

The IAEA said that, after an explosion March 15, officials expressed concern that the containment vessel may no longer be intact.

In the No. 3 reactor, electricity has been restored to the central control room and the Tokyo Fire Department was expected to start spraying water into the spent-fuel storage pool beginning at 4 p.m. Wednesday, Nishiyama said.

The No. 3 reactor has been a priority for authorities trying to contain damage to the plant and stave off a possible meltdown. Its fuel includes plutonium mixed with the uranium in its fuel rods, which experts say could cause more harm than regular uranium fuels in the event of a meltdown.

In the No. 4 reactor, power was connected to the control board; because the reactor has no fuel rods, the focus was on continuing spraying rods in the spent-fuel pool, he said.

Power has also been connected to the No. 5 and No. 6 reactors, he said.

Vegetables near stricken plant test high for radiation - CNN.com


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## Valerie (Mar 29, 2011)

> BEDFORD (CBS)  The Bedford, Mass. company i-Robot is about to be on the frontlines of Japans nuclear crisis.
> 
> Japanese officials asked for help from the company and -iRobot is sending two Warriors and two Packbots. Together theyre worth about $750,000. Six volunteers will also go over to help train people how to use the robots.
> 
> ...



Mass. Company Sending Robots To Japan « CBS Boston


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## Ravi (Mar 29, 2011)

That's pretty cool. Earlier I read they were using sand bags to keep the contaminated water from overflowing.

From low tech to high tech...I sincerely believe they haven't got a clue about how to get a handle on this.


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## Valerie (Mar 29, 2011)

Ravi said:


> That's pretty cool. Earlier I read they were using sand bags to keep the contaminated water from overflowing.
> 
> From low tech to high tech...I sincerely believe they haven't got a clue about how to get a handle on this.






> The &#8220;Packbot&#8221; comes with a hazmat package and can detect chemical, biological and radiological elements.
> 
> 
> Using the robots, says Wong, will let operators stay at a safe distance while investigating nuclear situations or conducting search and rescue operations. The robots have been used by the military for some time and have survived through some of the roughest terrain.
> ...



Mass. Company Sending Robots To Japan « CBS Boston


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## Chris (Mar 29, 2011)

Ravi said:


> That's pretty cool. Earlier I read they were using sand bags to keep the contaminated water from overflowing.
> 
> From low tech to high tech...I sincerely believe they haven't got a clue about how to get a handle on this.



Exactly.


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## Liability (Mar 29, 2011)

Let's see.  A meltdown bad enough to melt through the containment vessel.  It hit concrete.  The concrete is reinforced and all, but may have been damaged by some of the explosions.  We KNOW some highly radioactive water has gotten out.  We cannot establish how bad it is.  But we DO know that we have to keep dumping water on the molten mess to cool it down and we also know that this releases radioactive steam (and perhaps radioactive water itself).  so they are now engaged in a devil's trade-off.  Keep the meltdown as cool as possible, but pay the piper in the form of more radioactive steam and probable radioactive leakage.  

100,000 TIMES normal.  

Nothing to see here.  Move along.

I support nuclear energy.  But it sure seems silly to deny the evidence right under our noses.  The mess in Japan is perhaps not on the same level as Chernobyl.  That's nice.  But it's still pretty fucking bad and there are still no guarantees that it can't get worse.  

We also know that it should NEVER have been able to get THIS bad.  Yet, here we are.  

And can anybody tell me what time and date the next big Earthquake hits that region?  I ask on the hunch that it might just -- you know -- kind of matter.


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## Old Rocks (Mar 29, 2011)

Yes, an after shock of 7 to 8 would not be unheard of. And that could completely wreak havoc with their efforts were in centered nearby.

All indications are that one or more of the reactors is leaking, perhaps through the graphite rod seals, and that they cannot cease to pump water in, thereby creating more radioactive water below the reactors, without risking a catastrophic meltdown. 

100,000 times normal. A years normal dose in the space of 15 minutes. A point here. Why is there no counters in place and broadcasting data without the neccessity of people going in with a meter? In a country that makes millions of toys that are remote controled, it would seem to me to be an easy thing to do. Perhaps they really don't want to know how 'hot' it is closer in to the reactor?


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## Ravi (Mar 29, 2011)

It sounds like using salt water was a mistake...did they not know that ahead of time?


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## Valerie (Mar 29, 2011)

Ravi said:


> It sounds like using salt water was a mistake...did they not know that ahead of time?





It was an act of desperation.


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## Liability (Mar 29, 2011)

Ravi said:


> It sounds like using salt water was a mistake...did they not know that ahead of time?



My understanding is that they very well knew that using salt water was a horrible idea.  But, it also seems that as bad as it was, it was better than not at least trying to cool down the rods.

What a cluster fuck.

I don't care what the news folks are saying.  It seems quite clear that this Japanese meltdown problem is FAR from over.  And it is certainly possible -- maybe even likely -- that it is going to get much worse before a solution worthy of the name is implemented.  

The price that is going to be paid is not yet known.  But the price SEEMS to include a lot of people getting very very sick.  It may also involve (albeit on a hopefully very diluted scale) an increase in radiation world wide.  

Can anybody actually tell us what the increased radiation in the North Pacific Ocean is going to do to marine life around Japan?  How far will that radiation spread?  How much time before marine vegetation and other marine life soak up significant dosages of the radioactive iodine and cesium?  How long before that becomes part of the food chain?  And then what?


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## Ravi (Mar 29, 2011)

Well, if you ever saw the documentary about what the Japanese do to porpoises, maybe the porpoises have a better chance now.



I don't think it will be that bad, honestly, to anyone not in the general region...except for the sushi industry, maybe?

Don't the reactors by themselves eventually start cooling down?


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## Old Rocks (Mar 29, 2011)

Not for a long time by themselves.


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## Liability (Mar 29, 2011)

Ravi said:


> Well, if you ever saw the documentary about what the Japanese do to porpoises, maybe the porpoises have a better chance now.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



The melted-down rods do not cool down on their own.  They go molten and literally melt into the Earth.  I presume at some point they disperse or hit magma,  but the release of dangerous high radiation will have already gone un-contained if it ever gets that bad.  (I mean, among other things, the molten radioactive core at some point hits ground water and then you can get explosive venting of steam -- very radioactive at that point and it gets pretty widely dispersed.)

I believe  there is much more to the story of how bad the radiation range and effects are (or will go).  This is not a conspiracy theory.  I believe we will simply gain more understanding of all these implications as time marches on.  But even now we know enough to see that this is a very bad situation and it appears to be far from "under control."

BBC News - Radiation fears spread as Fukushima workers battle leak


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## Old Rocks (Mar 29, 2011)

I was also hunting for information on how bad a full meltdown would be. In doing so, I found this article by a representative of the Nuclear Industry. The reading of it gives one a full understanding of why this industry is pretty well over with in the US.

What Does &#8220;Nuclear Meltdown&#8221; Mean?


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## Ravi (Mar 30, 2011)

> Sticky resin may help. On Thursday, Tokyo Electric Power (TEPCO)  plans to test it, spraying this adhesive substance on an area of ground  near the plant, said Japanese nuclear safety authorities on Wednesday.  The idea is to glue down any fallen radioactive particles.
> 
> A giant  tarp has also been proposed. Japanese Chief Cabinet Secretary Yukio  Edano said nuclear experts might cover reactor buildings with a special  material to try and stop emission of radioactive substances.


Japan considers unusual fixes to contain radioactive leak - CSMonitor.com


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## Valerie (Mar 30, 2011)

Ravi said:


> > Sticky resin may help. On Thursday, Tokyo Electric Power (TEPCO)  plans to test it, spraying this adhesive substance on an area of ground  near the plant, said Japanese nuclear safety authorities on Wednesday.  The idea is to glue down any fallen radioactive particles.
> >
> > A giant  tarp has also been proposed. Japanese Chief Cabinet Secretary Yukio  Edano said nuclear experts might cover reactor buildings with a special  material to try and stop emission of radioactive substances.
> 
> ...






Ravi, your new hat looks like it's been zapped by radiation!


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## Ravi (Mar 30, 2011)

Valerie said:


> Ravi said:
> 
> 
> > > Sticky resin may help. On Thursday, Tokyo Electric Power (TEPCO)  plans to test it, spraying this adhesive substance on an area of ground  near the plant, said Japanese nuclear safety authorities on Wednesday.  The idea is to glue down any fallen radioactive particles.
> ...


Don't be silly. It is coated with invisible sticky stuff that keeps any radiation raining down from the sky from landing on moi.


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## Valerie (Mar 30, 2011)

Ravi said:


> Valerie said:
> 
> 
> > Ravi said:
> ...





Wow, that is great!  What a snazzy idea!


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## k2skier (Mar 30, 2011)

skookerasbil said:


> Like I said this AM........we're getting our chains pulled. The media has played the entire world for the past few days........and will for the next several.
> 
> Tomorrows headline will be, "Fire in 4th reactor gets even hotter!!!"
> 
> ...



projecting/assuming like this makes you look like a major douche bag now...


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## k2skier (Mar 30, 2011)

KissMy said:


> Old Rocks said:
> 
> 
> > KissMy said:
> ...



projecting/assuming like this makes you look like a major douche bag now...


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## westwall (Mar 30, 2011)

Old Rocks said:


> I was also hunting for information on how bad a full meltdown would be. In doing so, I found this article by a representative of the Nuclear Industry. The reading of it gives one a full understanding of why this industry is pretty well over with in the US.
> 
> What Does Nuclear Meltdown Mean?







What the article shows is how little the media knows about what reports and how little they care to be accurate.  I wonder if you actually read the article?  It has this paragraph........

"Despite what you may be hearing, this will NOT leave vast areas of land uninhabitable for generations. Again look no further than TMI where the other reactor, Unit 1, remains in Operation today and will continue to do so for another 20 years. The people in the areas surrounding TMI were never in any tangible danger and remain perfectly safe there today."


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## Old Rocks (Mar 30, 2011)

So that is what you think the article said?

What Does &#8220;Nuclear Meltdown&#8221; Mean?

What Does &#8220;Nuclear Meltdown&#8221; Mean?
By Jack Gamble | Published March 14, 2011 
Share77


Let me end by saying that what is happening at the Japanese reactors is serious. My goal is not to cover this up or make it seem like nothing is happening. My aim is to put the actual risk in perspective in contrast to the chicken-little reporting you may see in the main stream media. I&#8217;ll add that the Japanese government and nuclear industry are handling the situation in a professional and transparent way as they follow procedures and contingency plans that have been drilled and practiced for years. This plant stood up to two helpings of the very worst that mother nature can dish out and the fact that nobody has been killed as as result of the quake and tsunami hitting the plant is a testament to the resilient design and inherent safety of the Light Water Reactor. Unfortunately for the people of Japan, much of the surrounding area did not fare as well as the Fukushima Nuclear Power Plant did.

*This was written 3 days after the earthquake and resultant tsunami. It states that the situation would not become serious enough to endanger people beyond the 12 mile evacuation zone. 

Yet, here we are today with the water that is in the tunnels at levels that equal a years exposure in 15 minutes for those working there. Plutonium has been detected that came from at least one of the reactors. Levels hazardous to health have been detected as far as 40 kilometers from the plant. Iodine and cesium are decteted in the air, soil, and seawater near the plant. They are still trying to keep these reactors from a complete meltdown, and really, have no idea of what the results of their attempts really are.

They had to resort to pumping seawater directly into the reactors to prevent a complete meltdown. They used helicopter drops and hi-power water canons to cool the rods in the storage pools that were also melting down and spewing radiation into the atmosphere. These are actions that are not at all 'normal' and planned. 

The average citizen reading this engineers analysis will look at what followed, and state that these people have no clue. And turn thumbs down on further nuclear construction here in the US. All his assurances have been shown to be BS. He created an even worse situation by his comments.*


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## Old Rocks (Mar 30, 2011)

UN Nuclear Officials: Radiation High Outside Evacuation Zone

VIENNA -- Recent radiation readings outside the exclusion zone around Japan's nuclear disaster show radiation substantially higher than levels at which the U.N. nuclear agency would recommend evacuations, agency officials said Wednesday.

The comments could add to the debate over how far people need to stay away from Japan's Fukushima Dai-ichi nuclear complex, which was crippled in the country's March 11 earthquake and tsunami.

Elena Buglova, an official from the International Atomic Energy Agency, said the reading was 2 megabecquerels per square meter at the village of Iitate, adding that "as a ratio it was about two times higher" than levels at which the agency recommends evacuations.


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## westwall (Mar 30, 2011)

Old Rocks said:


> So that is what you think the article said?
> 
> What Does &#8220;Nuclear Meltdown&#8221; Mean?
> 
> ...






And the paragraph I referenced is still valid.  The immediate area around the reactors is toast, no argument.  However, just like TMI, no one is going to die (unless they do something really stupid) and in a few years they will be able to start de-comissioning the reactors.

No one is defending the actions of the TEPCO here either.  If you bother to look one post I made takes them to task for being incredibly arrogant nd believeing they didn't have to pay attention to the potential problems that would arise from an earthquake.  

This is a case of operator error.  Had they done the simple thing of placing their diesel generators on the roof's of the containment buildings there would not be the disaster occuring.  That simple thing would have prevented all of it.

An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure is very clearly demonstrated in this case.


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## Ravi (Mar 30, 2011)

Even if it isn't "worse" than Chernobyl it is harmful to the Japanese simply because it has the power to contaminate a large part of a small country.


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## Ravi (Mar 30, 2011)

westwall said:


> Old Rocks said:
> 
> 
> > So that is what you think the article said?
> ...


Yeah, operator error leads to boneheaded plans to spray plastic or throw a tarp over a nuclear accident.

Operator error equals humans being in over their heads.


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## Valerie (Mar 30, 2011)




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## westwall (Mar 30, 2011)

Ravi said:


> westwall said:
> 
> 
> > Old Rocks said:
> ...






No, it doesn't.  They weren't in over their heads.  They allowed their innate arrogance to get the better of them and not follow a very simple safety protocol.  It's unbelievable that it happened and even more ridiculous is how inept they were immediately following the disaster.  And all of it broken down to arrogance and not having a plan worked out before hand.


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## Old Rocks (Mar 30, 2011)

And how well are plans worked out for other reactors? We have several near faults. Some near seashore. Given the arrogance with which that particular engineer dismissed the possibility of the situation getting out of hand, he wrote that three days after the quake and tsunami, how many other such foolish assumptions are we operating on in our own plants? 

Unfortunately for the whole nuclear industry, this is exactly what you and other nuclear boosters have been saying could not possibly happen. And now it is happening, and still getting worse. The outcome has the potential to still get even worse. 

You and others here were quick to state it could not reach this point. Now you are stating that it will not get worse. As much as I hope that you are correct, and this will be as bad as it gets, I think that hope has little chance.


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## westwall (Mar 31, 2011)

Old Rocks said:


> And how well are plans worked out for other reactors? We have several near faults. Some near seashore. Given the arrogance with which that particular engineer dismissed the possibility of the situation getting out of hand, he wrote that three days after the quake and tsunami, how many other such foolish assumptions are we operating on in our own plants?
> 
> Unfortunately for the whole nuclear industry, this is exactly what you and other nuclear boosters have been saying could not possibly happen. And now it is happening, and still getting worse. The outcome has the potential to still get even worse.
> 
> You and others here were quick to state it could not reach this point. Now you are stating that it will not get worse. As much as I hope that you are correct, and this will be as bad as it gets, I think that hope has little chance.






Wrong again.  You just love putting words in peoples mouths don't you?  Regardless, no one in my field will ever discount the capability of humans to be stupid and or arrogant to the point where something like this happens.  However, we have a very good model of how Nuke plants can be run.  They have been doing it for a very long time and have never had a problem.  Let's see if you can figure out who I'm talking about.


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## Ravi (Mar 31, 2011)

westwall said:


> Old Rocks said:
> 
> 
> > And how well are plans worked out for other reactors? We have several near faults. Some near seashore. Given the arrogance with which that particular engineer dismissed the possibility of the situation getting out of hand, he wrote that three days after the quake and tsunami, how many other such foolish assumptions are we operating on in our own plants?
> ...


Must be the Japanese. They've had a perfect record until now.


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## Ravi (Mar 31, 2011)

westwall said:


> Ravi said:
> 
> 
> > westwall said:
> ...


Speaking of arrogance, you seem to suffer from it quite badly. We don't KNOW if putting the generators higher would have solved the problem.



> The Japan crisis, which began with an electricity outage, has also drawn attention to backup power. Experts say that the  tsunami either waterlogged backup diesel generators, destroyed fuel  tanks or flooded switch gears needed to hook up the generators  or all  three.


Japan crisis spawns new look at U.S. reactors&rsquo; design and preparedness - The Washington Post


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## Liability (Apr 12, 2011)

For all of those who dismiss the Japan nuclear reactor disaster comparison to Chernobyl, let me just calmly ask you to consider the highlighted portion of the following article (linked in Drudge this afternoon):




> *Japan ups nuke crisis severity to match Chernobyl*
> Apr 12, 6:25 AM (ET)
> 
> By YURI KAGEYAMA and RYAN NAKASHIMA
> ...


 My Way News - Japan ups nuke crisis severity to match Chernobyl

Does anybody reasonably predict the crisis NOT continuing?


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## westwall (Apr 12, 2011)

Liability said:


> For all of those who dismiss the Japan nuclear reactor disaster comparison to Chernobyl, let me just calmly ask you to consider the highlighted portion of the following article (linked in Drudge this afternoon):
> 
> 
> 
> ...






Not that I'm aware of.  The crisis is going to continue for quite a while and as it sits I would not be surprised if the amount of emissions comes close to that emitted by Cernobyl.  It is still a much different animal.  Locally it is going to be devestating, no question, but globally it will not be a big deal.


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## westwall (Apr 12, 2011)

Ravi said:


> westwall said:
> 
> 
> > Old Rocks said:
> ...






Nope!


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## westwall (Apr 12, 2011)

Ravi said:


> westwall said:
> 
> 
> > Ravi said:
> ...






Nope again, we know quite well that had the generators been on the roof (and of course been operable and full of fuel, kind of a requirement for a emergency system) non of this would have happened.  We KNOW this to be true.


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## Ravi (Apr 12, 2011)

westwall said:


> Ravi said:
> 
> 
> > westwall said:
> ...


The tsunami was higher than the roof of the buildings so no, we don't KNOW that at all mr. arrogant derp.

What we do know is that if the plants hadn't been built where they are this disaster wouldn't have happened.


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## westwall (Apr 12, 2011)

Ravi said:


> westwall said:
> 
> 
> > Ravi said:
> ...







At the coast yes it was.  By the time the wave reached the reactors, no it was not.  The wave reached no higher than a third of the height of the buildings.


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## Ravi (Apr 12, 2011)

westwall said:


> Ravi said:
> 
> 
> > westwall said:
> ...


Wrong. A video of it happening was released a couple of days ago. The tsunami went over the top of the buildings.


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## LibocalypseNow (Apr 12, 2011)

They lied and people died. Haven't people learned anything from Wikileaks? Governments constantly lie to their people. At first our own Government and Japan's Government claimed it was no big deal. Now they're admitting it's actually worse than Chernobyl. Our Government has also told us that the radiation can't possibly reach Hawaii or the West Coast of the U.S. Or if it does,it will be no big deal. Look at all the ignorant masses who are buying that. This thing is a horrifying tragedy and it will affect the United States. The Governments are still lying about this. Wake up people.


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## westwall (Apr 12, 2011)

Ravi said:


> westwall said:
> 
> 
> > Ravi said:
> ...






Really?  I think you need to re-read the release there.  Spray certainly reached higher than the buildings and it certainly topped the sea wall, but it did not go over the reactor buildings.  I've highlighted the relevent parts for you.




Video shows tsunami crashing into Fukushima nuclear site


 Share this on:Mixx Facebook Twitter Digg delicious reddit MySpace StumbleUpon LinkedIn April 09, 2011|By Brian Walker and Matt Smith, CNN

Tougher contingency plans have been ordered for Japanese nuclear power stations in light of the Fukushima Daiichi disaster.A brief video clip released Saturday captures the massive tsunami that crippled Japan's Fukushima Daiichi power plant, showing the wall of water that slammed into the facility and created an ongoing crisis.

The video shows the giant wave generated by the historic March 11 earthquake crashing over the plant's seawall and engulfing the facility, with one sheet of spray rising higher than the buildings that house the plant's six reactors. Tokyo Electric Power, the plant's owner, told reporters the wall of water was likely 14 to 15 meters (45 to 48 feet) higher than normal sea levels -- easily overwhelming the plant's 5-meter seawall.


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## Ravi (Apr 12, 2011)

westwall said:


> Ravi said:
> 
> 
> > westwall said:
> ...


Oh, right, that wasn't part of the tsunami.


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## LibocalypseNow (Apr 12, 2011)

It goes from "It's no big deal" to "A catastrophic disaster worse than Chernobyl" in a flash. Governments just can't help lying to their people. Look at all the sheep who bought into our own Government's claims as well as Japan's. They were all lies. Yet so many people bought into them. All people should check out Wikileaks and see just how often their Government lies to them. Our own Government is still claiming that radiation cannot reach Hawaii or the West Coast of the U.S. Do you really believe them? I know i don't. Governments just lie too much. It's time to pray for the people of Hawaii and the U.S. too. This thing is much much worse than the Governments have told the people. Stay safe and God Bless.


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## westwall (Apr 12, 2011)

Ravi said:


> westwall said:
> 
> 
> > Ravi said:
> ...





You said the video shows the wave going over the reactor building I have just shown you that not to be true.  What's your problem?



"Wrong. A video of it happening was released a couple of days ago. The tsunami went over the top of the buildings."
Ravi


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## Liability (Apr 12, 2011)

westwall said:


> Liability said:
> 
> 
> > For all of those who dismiss the Japan nuclear reactor disaster comparison to Chernobyl, let me just calmly ask you to consider the highlighted portion of the following article (linked in Drudge this afternoon):
> ...



Ok.  I don't think we disagree all that much.  I didn't suggest, for example, that because of these Fukishima meltdown(s), the world was fucked.  But I was taken a bit back when I saw people suggesting that what happened there in Japan is really nothing all that dire.

It is DAMN fucking dire to the People of Japan especially those within 30 or so miles [EDIT:  I meant Km] of the plant in Northern Japan.  It IS a problem for at least the local aquatic ecosystem, too.  And although the degree of the problem for the rest of the world isn't directly related to the radioactivity getting emitted, it is STILL a potentially massive problem for the rest of the world because these things don't happen in an isolated closed system.  

Japan might bounce back, but it is likely to take a long time.  That ability to absorb the problems of the quake and the tsunami got massively complicated by the reactor problems.  And if the Japanese economy starts to tank, badly, as I think it might, there is another kind of fallout to worry about.  Their problems will not be easily contained.


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## westwall (Apr 12, 2011)

Liability said:


> westwall said:
> 
> 
> > Liability said:
> ...






I think you may have misinterpreted what has been said.  The local situation is very dire indeed.  However, after the short half life isotopes have burned themselves out the cleanup will begin and it will be safe to do so with reasonable precautions.  They do need to get the leaking under control, there is no argument there, however the damage is going to be very localised in the long run.  After the initial release a clear zone of around 50 miles was neccessary.  However in about a year (provided they can control the leaking) people will be able to move back into a zone much closer to the reactor.

Eventually, 5 years or so, life will return to normal in the area and within a few years after that most people will not even know it ever occured.


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## LibocalypseNow (Apr 12, 2011)

First it was no big deal and now it's a horrifying disaster worse than Chernobyl. Why do people still believe what their Governments tell them? Their first inclination is to always lie. Now the U.S. Government is telling us that radiation will not affect the U.S. at all. No big deal again. Who actually believes them though? I think Hawaii and the West Coast of the U.S. are in serious trouble. They will probably be severely radiated while the Government tells them everything is just fine. This is just plain depressing.


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## Ravi (Apr 12, 2011)

westwall said:


> Ravi said:
> 
> 
> > westwall said:
> ...


It engulfed the buildings and one wave went over...or plume as you wish. Regardless, there is no way to know if the generators would have been out of harm's way on the roof.


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## westwall (Apr 12, 2011)

Ravi said:


> westwall said:
> 
> 
> > Ravi said:
> ...






There is a huge difference between spray rising over the buildings and a wave sweety.  A huge difference, yes we do know.


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## Liability (Apr 12, 2011)

westwall said:


> Liability said:
> 
> 
> > westwall said:
> ...



The phrase "the short half life isotopes" is misleading.  OF the radiactive particles that are getting emitted, and which are clearly polluting the immediate area, what is your understanding of the "half life?"

As I grasp this stuff, the half life of Strontium (meaning Strontium 90) is 30 years.  Well, 28.7 to 28.9 years.   That doesn't mean the problem goes away in 30 years.  It means only that there is essentially half the original amount 30 years later.  60 years later, there's a quarter of the original amount.  90 years later there's still an eight of that original amount.  

Why does that matter?

Because we know that the Fukishima reactors have released enough Sr90 to be affecting areas 30 Km away from the reactors.  The half life of Cesium may be only about 2+ years, but it's still a problem, certainly, for the locals and the fauna (I'm thinking of livestock) and so forth, NOW.  And for the next who knows how many years?

The stricken reactors ARE also releasing Plutonium into the atmosphere.  There is no good way to interpret that.   My understanding is that Plutonium has a 24 THOUSAND+ year half life.  

I'm not sure what you are arguing.  Chicken Littles may be making more of this big problem than it merits, but to denigrate the nature of the problem so dismissively also strikes me as fallacy.

It is a problem.  It is primarily "local."  But widespread and long term consequences do exist.   And those consequences (nuclear-related injury, sickness, death, etc) are not necessarily all that minor.  And they can grow worse over time since the broken reactors and storage areas have not come close to being contained and there is no clear end in sight.


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## Valerie (Apr 12, 2011)

westwall said:


> Ravi said:
> 
> 
> > westwall said:
> ...







However, there's still no doubt the wave went higher than a third of the height, though...




westwall said:


> The wave reached no higher than a third of the height of the buildings.


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## westwall (Apr 12, 2011)

Liability said:


> westwall said:
> 
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> > Liability said:
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Iodine 131 has a half life of 8 days and that is the isotope you should be concerned about.  Isotopes with short half lives emit as their primary radiation Gamma Rays that penetrate everything and destroy cells on contact.  It is that ionising radiation that kills people.

The other isotpes, Cesium, Strontium etc. that measure their half lives in years primarily emit Alpha and Beta particles that are blocked by a sheet of paper.  It would be extremely bad to ingest the particles but, so long as you wear proper clothing and are properly decontaminated, there is nothing to worry about from those isotopes.

In short the longer the half life the less you care about the isotopes.  Any material that has a half life of 24,000 years is not going to bother you.


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## westwall (Apr 12, 2011)

Valerie said:


> westwall said:
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That is true, but by the time it got to the reactor buildings the intervening space and seawall had collapsed the wave so that it did not rise higher than a third of the way up the reactor buildings.  The spray most certainly topped the buildings but spray won't hurt you.  Go to any sea wall during a storm and the sea spray will certainly make you cold but it won't blow you off your feet like getting hit by a wave will.  

I will certainly grant you that the entire area was engulfed by water, the whole area was under water, but the reactor buildings themselves were never underwater as Ravi claimed.


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## Old Rocks (Apr 12, 2011)

westwall said:


> Liability said:
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Well, you have made some exceptionly dumb statements in the past, Walleyes, but this takes the cake. You are either dumber than a post, or so totally wrapped in your own version of reality that you will not see the truth.

IEER:Health Effects of Plutonium

Plutonium-239 is a very hazardous carcinogen which can also be used to make nuclear weapons. This combination of properties makes it one of the most dangerous substances. Plutonium-239, while present in only trace quantities in nature, has been made in large quantities in both military and commercial programs in the last 50 years. Other more radioactive carcinogens do exist, like radium-226, but unlike plutonium-239 cannot be used to make nuclear weapons, or are not available in quantity. Highly enriched uranium (HEU) can also be used to make nuclear weapons, but it is roughly one thousand times less radioactive than plutonium-239. The danger is aggravated by the fact that plutonium-239 is relatively difficult to detect once it is outside of secure, well-instrumented facilities, or once it has been incorporated into the body. This is because its gamma ray emissions, which provide the easiest method of detection of radionuclides, are relatively weak. 

The main carcinogenic property of plutonium-239 arises from the energetic alpha radiation it emits. Alpha particles, being heavy, transfer their energy to other atoms and molecules within fewer collisions than the far lighter electrons which are the primary means of radiation damage for both gamma and beta radiation.1 Alpha particles travel only a short distance within living tissue, repeatedly bombarding the cells and tissue nearby. This results in far more biological damage for the same amount of energy deposited in living tissue. The relative effectiveness of various kinds of radiation in causing biological damage is known as "relative biological effectiveness" (RBE). This varies according to the type of radiation, its energy, and the organ of the body being irradiated. A simple factor, called quality factor, is used to indicate the relative danger of alpha, beta, gamma and neutron radiation for regulatory purposes. The International Commission on Radiation Protection currently recommends the use of a quality factor of 20 for alpha radiation relative to gamma radiation.2 

Once in the body, plutonium-239 is preferentially deposited in soft tissues, notably the liver, on bone surfaces, in bone marrow and other non-calcified areas of the bone, as well as those areas of the bone that do not contain cartilage. Deposition in bone marrow can have an especially harmful effect on the blood formation which takes place there. By contrast, radium-226, another alpha emitter, is chemically akin to calcium and so becomes deposited in the calcified areas of bones


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## Old Rocks (Apr 12, 2011)

Well, now that nuclear catastrophe in Japan has been rated as just that. And the effects will be felt globally as the economy of Japan takes several body blows from the ongoing consequences of the disaster started by a devestating natural disaster.

And here in the US, we have many pools for spent nuclear rods that have four times the more rods in them than they were designed for. What happens to them in a massive natural disaster? Are our own nukes really that safe? Walleyes states that they are. But he also stated at the start that this would not ever amount to a really serious disaster. Like that nuclear engineer with his vastly premature and ignorant statements concerning what the scope of the disaster could be, which he made only three days after the quake, Walleyes has made the very best arguement against his own statements. 

Nuclear power is essentially dead here in the US. There will be no new plants for a long, long time. People like that engineer, Walleyes, and fruitcakes like Kookybill, have made that a given. It is not the environmentalists that have killed nuclear power, but the people that assured all that it was failsafe, and then cost engineered the plants in such a manner that they failed. Three Mile Island barely avoided what we are seeing in Japan right now, and there was not a major disaster to initiate that disaster. 

The catastrophe in Japan is far from over, and the plutonium in reactor #3 could create an enormous disaster if that reactor goes into full meltdown. Time for a very serious review of how safe our own reactors are, and what natural or manmade disasters would create a danger from them.


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## westwall (Apr 12, 2011)

Old Rocks said:


> westwall said:
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> > Liability said:
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Please note the original comment where ingesting is very bad for you.  Please learn to read properly.  And for the record you would die of heavy metal poisoning LONG before you ever died of the effects of the radiation.


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## Old Rocks (Apr 12, 2011)

Westwall;

Please note the original comment where ingesting is very bad for you. Please learn to read properly. And for the record you would die of heavy metal poisoning LONG before you ever died of the effects of the radiation

..........................................................................................................................................
*So, you are going to get heavy metal poisoning from a particle weighing 27 millionths of a gram? 

Once again, where the hell did you get the degree you claim? Outer Slobovia? *

IEER:Health Effects of Plutonium

Experimental data 

The health effects of plutonium have been studied primarily by experiments done on laboratory animals. Some analyses have also been done on workers and non-worker populations exposed to plutonium contamination. Measurements of burdens of plutonium using lung counters or whole-body counters, together with follow-up of exposed individuals, have provided information which is complementary to experimental data and analysis. Experiments injecting human beings with plutonium were also done in the United States. Between 1945 and 1947, 18 people were injected with plutonium in experiments used to get data on plutonium metabolism. They were done without informed consent and have been the object of considerable criticism since information about them became widely known in 1993. 

Experiments on beagles have shown that a very small amount of plutonium in insoluble form will produce lung cancer with near-one-hundred-percent probability. When this data is extrapolated to humans, the figure for lethal lung burden of plutonium comes out to about 27 micrograms. Such an extrapolation from animals, of course, has some uncertainties. However, it is safe to assume that several tens of micrograms of plutonium-239 in the lung would greatly increase the risk of lung cancer. Larger quantities of plutonium will produce health problems in the short-term as well. 

The precise quantitative effects of considerably lower quantities of plutonium are as yet not well known. This is due to several factors such as: the difficulty of measuring plutonium in the body; uncertainties regarding excretion rates and functions due to the large variation in such rates from one human being to the next (so that the same body burden of plutonium would produce considerably different doses); complicating factors such as smoking; uncertainties in the data (as, for instance, about the time of ingestion or inhalation); differing and largely unknown exposure to other sources of carcinogens (both radioactive and non-radioactive) over the long periods over which studies are conducted; failure to study and follow-up on the health of workers who worked with plutonium in the nuclear weapons industry to the extent possible.


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## westwall (Apr 13, 2011)

Old Rocks said:


> Westwall;
> 
> Please note the original comment where ingesting is very bad for you. Please learn to read properly. And for the record you would die of heavy metal poisoning LONG before you ever died of the effects of the radiation
> 
> ...







Try again bozo, the LD50 for plutonium is around 20-50 (exact figures are VERY hard to obtain) micrograms per KG of body weight, so figure .005 grams will kill your average 100 KG person.


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## Ravi (Apr 13, 2011)

westwall said:


> Ravi said:
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And we know that salt water can easily ruin a generator even if only a "spray".


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## westwall (Apr 13, 2011)

Ravi said:


> westwall said:
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> > Ravi said:
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Not when they're in enclosures which these were, and would have had to have been on top of the buildings.   Even if they weren't protected spray would only knock a generator out for a few hours till the electrical wiring and connectors were dried out.  The generators on site however were destroyed because the wave was able to dismount them from their mountings and being underwater for the better part of a day did massive damage to them.

Salt spray (heck just being near the ocean) does indeed play havoc on equipment, but it takes months to accomplish any real damage, and that is for stuff that is ignored.


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## Old Rocks (Apr 13, 2011)

westwall said:


> Old Rocks said:
> 
> 
> > Westwall;
> ...



Every figure I have found states an extrapolated figure of 27 micro-grams, period. None state that it is per kilogram. You are pulling that out of your ass.


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## LibocalypseNow (Apr 13, 2011)

Bottom line is Japan lied and more people died. At first they told everyone it was 'No big Deal' and now it's a terrible calamity as bad if not worse than Chernobyl. And shame on our U.S. Government as well for repeating those lies. I'm still so surprised that so few have learned anything from Wikileaks. Governments always lie to their people. This happens on a daily basis. Now our own U.S. Government tells us that there is absolutely no threat from radiation in Hawaii or the West Coast of the U.S. So should we believe them on that one? I wouldn't if i were you. Brace yourselves Hawaii and the West Coast.


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## Old Rocks (Apr 13, 2011)

LibocalypseNow said:


> Bottom line is Japan lied and more people died. At first they told everyone it was 'No big Deal' and now it's a terrible calamity as bad if not worse than Chernobyl. And shame on our U.S. Government as well for repeating those lies. I'm still so surprised that so few have learned anything from Wikileaks. Governments always lie to their people. This happens on a daily basis. Now our own U.S. Government tells us that there is absolutely no threat from radiation in Hawaii or the West Coast of the U.S. So should we believe them on that one? I wouldn't if i were you. Brace yourselves Hawaii and the West Coast.



In either the winter of 1956, or 57, we had a 'hot' snow in the Blue Mountains of Eastern Oregon. It pegged my grandfathers geiger counter. Never saw a mention of that 'hot' snow. They had to know it occured, just swept it under the rug, like the leaks from Hanford.


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## LibocalypseNow (Apr 13, 2011)

Old Rocks said:


> LibocalypseNow said:
> 
> 
> > Bottom line is Japan lied and more people died. At first they told everyone it was 'No big Deal' and now it's a terrible calamity as bad if not worse than Chernobyl. And shame on our U.S. Government as well for repeating those lies. I'm still so surprised that so few have learned anything from Wikileaks. Governments always lie to their people. This happens on a daily basis. Now our own U.S. Government tells us that there is absolutely no threat from radiation in Hawaii or the West Coast of the U.S. So should we believe them on that one? I wouldn't if i were you. Brace yourselves Hawaii and the West Coast.
> ...



Yea too many just didn't learn anything from Wikileaks. They just continue to buy everything their Government tells them. Now our U.S. Government is telling us the radiation from Japan is no big deal for us in the U.S. But why do so many believe them on that? They lie on a daily basis. I think this radiation is going to be very bad in Hawaii and possibly the U.S. Chernobyl was far from "No big Deal." The affects of this radiation will be felt in the U.S. And shame on our Government for lying to the people. They lied and people died. That's the real story.


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## westwall (Apr 13, 2011)

Old Rocks said:


> westwall said:
> 
> 
> > Old Rocks said:
> ...







That's because you aren't smart enough to ask the simple question what is the definition of LD50, any college student would know how to ask that question so there goes your claim of three years of college...

"LD50 is a measurement used in toxicology studies to determine the potential impact of toxic substances on different types of organisms. It provides an objective measure to compare and rank the toxicity of substances. The LD50 measurement is usually expressed as the amount of toxin per kilogram or pound of body weight. When comparing LD50 values, a lower value is regarded as more toxic, as it means a smaller amount of the toxin is required to cause death."


LD50 &#8211; Definition of the Term LD50


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## westwall (Apr 13, 2011)

LibocalypseNow said:


> Bottom line is Japan lied and more people died. At first they told everyone it was 'No big Deal' and now it's a terrible calamity as bad if not worse than Chernobyl. And shame on our U.S. Government as well for repeating those lies. I'm still so surprised that so few have learned anything from Wikileaks. Governments always lie to their people. This happens on a daily basis. Now our own U.S. Government tells us that there is absolutely no threat from radiation in Hawaii or the West Coast of the U.S. So should we believe them on that one? I wouldn't if i were you. Brace yourselves Hawaii and the West Coast.






No one has died due to radiation.  And yes, of course governments lie.  They have people in them and people are congenital liars.


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## LibocalypseNow (Apr 13, 2011)

westwall said:


> LibocalypseNow said:
> 
> 
> > Bottom line is Japan lied and more people died. At first they told everyone it was 'No big Deal' and now it's a terrible calamity as bad if not worse than Chernobyl. And shame on our U.S. Government as well for repeating those lies. I'm still so surprised that so few have learned anything from Wikileaks. Governments always lie to their people. This happens on a daily basis. Now our own U.S. Government tells us that there is absolutely no threat from radiation in Hawaii or the West Coast of the U.S. So should we believe them on that one? I wouldn't if i were you. Brace yourselves Hawaii and the West Coast.
> ...



Doesn't mean lying is right or justifiable. Do you believe the U.S. Government when it says Japan radiation is no threat at all to the U.S.? I do not believe them.


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## LibocalypseNow (Apr 13, 2011)

And what about all the contaminated sea life Millions & Millions of people will be eating in the coming years? I bet they're saying that's 'No big Deal" too huh? All that radioactive material dumped into the Ocean yet there will be no adverse affects? It actually boggles my mind that so many still believe anything their Governments tell them. What has our own U.S. Government said about contaminated sea life? I haven't heard a word from them on that. It's like it's not even happening. And when they do finally speak about it,it will be all lies. 

It's just like all that Oil and chemicals haven't contaminated any sea life in the Gulf either. People just go on eating all that seafood from the Gulf huh? All because the Government told them it was 100% safe. The same lies will be told about this contamination too. The radioactive material is still being dumped into the Ocean as we speak. But everything's just fine according to the Japanese & U.S. Governments. This is just very sad stuff. I guess that's why most just choose to stick their heads in the sand and believe everything their Governments tell them. They just don't want to face reality. That's actually very understandable though. But it's also very sad.


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## westwall (Apr 13, 2011)

LibocalypseNow said:


> westwall said:
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> > LibocalypseNow said:
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No, the Japanese radiation is no threat to the US.  I agree lying is never justifiable, however, one must recognise that it invariably happens so educate yourself so that when they do lie you know it.


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## westwall (Apr 13, 2011)

LibocalypseNow said:


> And what about all the contaminated sea life Millions & Millions of people will be eating in the coming years? I bet they're saying that's 'No big Deal" too huh? All that radioactive material dumped into the Ocean yet there will be no adverse affects? It actually boggles my mind that so many still believe anything their Governments tell them. What has our own U.S. Government said about contaminated sea life? I haven't heard a word from them on that. It's like it's not even happening. And when they do finally speak about it,it will be all lies.
> 
> It's just like all that Oil and chemicals haven't contaminated any sea life in the Gulf either. People just go on eating all that seafood from the Gulf huh? All because the Government told them it was 100% safe. The same lies will be told about this contamination too. The radioactive material is still being dumped into the Ocean as we speak. But everything's just fine according to the Japanese & U.S. Governments. This is just very sad stuff. I guess that's why most just choose to stick their heads in the sand and believe everything their Governments tell them. They just don't want to face reality. That's actually very understandable though. But it's also very sad.







Sea life from the immediate area will of course be unedible, but truly, in a few years the whole area will be pretty much back to normal.  The area immediately around the reactors will be unpleasant but do yourself a favor and look up Three Mile Island.  That too was a partial meltdown and no one died there either.  In fact the second reactor is still operational and the paeople living in the area have suffered no deleterious effects from the radiation leak back then.


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## Old Rocks (Apr 13, 2011)

Westwall;

That's because you aren't smart enough to ask the simple question what is the definition of LD50, any college student would know how to ask that question so there goes your claim of three years of college...

"LD50 is a measurement used in toxicology studies to determine the potential impact of toxic substances on different types of organisms. It provides an objective measure to compare and rank the toxicity of substances. The LD50 measurement is usually expressed as the amount of toxin per kilogram or pound of body weight. When comparing LD50 values, a lower value is regarded as more toxic, as it means a smaller amount of the toxin is required to cause death."

...............................................................................................................................

*Where did you come up with that idea that this was an LD50? That is a chemical toxicisty measurement, not one concerning radioactive materials. 

The article I posted stated unequivocely that the extrapolated number for a human being was 27 micro-grams. Not per kilogram, but 27 micro-grams, period.*

IEER:Health Effects of Plutonium

Experiments on beagles have shown that a very small amount of plutonium in insoluble form will produce lung cancer with near-one-hundred-percent probability. When this data is extrapolated to humans, the figure for lethal lung burden of plutonium comes out to about 27 micrograms. Such an extrapolation from animals, of course, has some uncertainties. However, it is safe to assume that several tens of micrograms of plutonium-239 in the lung would greatly increase the risk of lung cancer. Larger quantities of plutonium will produce health problems in the short-term as well. 

*Once again, you fail to show the reading ability expected of a high school student, Walleyes. 

You pulled it out of your ass, and have been caught once again.*


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## westwall (Apr 14, 2011)

Old Rocks said:


> Westwall;
> 
> That's because you aren't smart enough to ask the simple question what is the definition of LD50, any college student would know how to ask that question so there goes your claim of three years of college...
> 
> ...






Because, NIMROD, Plutonium is both exceptionally poisonous as a heavy metal (number one on the heavy metal hit parade) and radioactive.  If you would ever pull your head out of your sphincter you could actually learn something but you are so ridiculously arrogant and ignorant, you don't even know the damn questions to ask much less have the ability to understand the answers when you get them.

Nice job showing yet again what a complete and total scientific illiterate you are!


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## editec (Apr 14, 2011)

I think I heard yesterday that the operator put the danger level at 7.

7 being, apparently, what they consider _the highest danger level before meltdown_ (or whatever the hell happens..I'm not really sure what an 8 means)


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## Liability (Apr 14, 2011)

editec said:


> I think I heard yesterday that the operator put the danger level at 7.
> 
> 7 being, apparently, what they consider _the highest danger level before meltdown_ (or whatever the hell happens..I'm not really sure what an 8 means)



I believe there is no 8.  It only goes up to 7.


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## Old Rocks (Apr 14, 2011)

Yes, 7 is the highest. And, while at present the total release of radiation is only 1/10 that of Chernobyl, that could change in the future. In fact, has already changed with a new release from one of the ponds with the spent rods.


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## Old Rocks (Apr 14, 2011)

westwall said:


> Old Rocks said:
> 
> 
> > Westwall;
> ...



LOL. You have been caught pulling numbers out of your ass again, Walleyes. The radiation danger of Plutonium is not rated in the LD50 system, only the chemical toxicisity. The figure is 27 micro-grams for a human being. 

Once again, if you expect respect, earn it. This kind of stubborn insistance that you are correct when you are obviously wrong only demonstrates what a fool you are.


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## westwall (Apr 14, 2011)

Old Rocks said:


> westwall said:
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> > Old Rocks said:
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Really?  I suggest you pull your head from your sphincter and try again.  Just putting your fingers in your ears and going "la la la" won't work here.  People can see what was written poor child.  ALL LD50 calculations are figured as a relationship to body weight.  Whether it be from a neurotoxin, a hemotoxin, a heavy metal or whatever toxin you are dealing with.

It's so nice to see you hold so completely to form.  And as far as your truly pathetic attempt at an insult about trying to earn respect I will let our respective rep levels speak for me.  You've been here for 3 years with nearly 15,000 posts and a rep of 126, I've been here less then a year with nearly 5100 posts and a rep of 192 or so.  So it looks like, in this venue, my opinions are more respected then yours.

What was that about being a fool?


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## Old Rocks (Apr 14, 2011)

A very Conservative message board. I am surprised that my numbers are not negative. 

As for your numbers, lying fools agree with lying fools. 

And, once again, the article made absolutely no referance to the LD50 standards, it made a flat statement of an extrapolation, 27 micro-grams for the human lungs. 

Your continued referance to that standard is simply cover for the fact that you made a stupid remark that because of it's 24,000 year half-life, plutonium was essentially harmless. When, in fact, it is one of the most dangerous of the products of a meltdown in a MOX reactor.

IEER:Health Effects of Plutonium

Experiments on beagles have shown that a very small amount of plutonium in insoluble form will produce lung cancer with near-one-hundred-percent probability. When this data is extrapolated to humans, the figure for lethal lung burden of plutonium comes out to about 27 micrograms. Such an extrapolation from animals, of course, has some uncertainties. However, it is safe to assume that several tens of micrograms of plutonium-239 in the lung would greatly increase the risk of lung cancer. Larger quantities of plutonium will produce health problems in the short-term as well.


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## westwall (Apr 14, 2011)

Old Rocks said:


> A very Conservative message board. I am surprised that my numbers are not negative.
> 
> As for your numbers, lying fools agree with lying fools.
> 
> ...







  Sure bucko sure, Jillian is not one I would consider conservative but she doesn't lie, cheat steal, or call people names (well at least normal folks) she has a rep near 1200 so no, your rep is representative of you and your viewpoint which is far outside the norm, plus you're fundamentally dishonest.  People don't like that.  There are LOTS of libs here with high reps, they are just nice people unlike you.

Next!


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## Liability (Apr 14, 2011)

I shall now simplify, but do so accurately and fairly.

The stuff getting released into our ecosystem (some of which is indeed going outside the local area of the meltdown) is injurious to our health.  Not "might be" dangerous.  This isn't a 1970's cigarette box warning label we're talking about.  "It *IS* injurious."

The risk from each of the various radioactive elements being emitted varies over time and by amount.  SOME of it will effectively present little long term risk and will, thankfully, only be found within a few dozen kilometers of the site.  Other stuff is so potent that it will present a larger risk for a long time.  And SOME of the stuff is being spread far outside of the local area of the meltdown.  

I'm not sure what the argument is.  It is a bad situation and the end of this major problem is not yet clearly foreseeable.  Things have a distinct prospect of getting worse, in fact, before they get better.


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## Old Rocks (Apr 14, 2011)

Liability said:


> I shall now simplify, but do so accurately and fairly.
> 
> The stuff getting released into our ecosystem (some of which is indeed going outside the local area of the meltdown) is injurious to our health.  Not "might be" dangerous.  This isn't a 1970's cigarette box warning label we're talking about.  "It *IS* injurious."
> 
> ...



The problem here is that some people got caught flat out lying concerning the health effects of the meltdown, let alone the possible effects. Were #3 reactor to go into full meltdown, there would be people dying of the effects of that all over the world for hundreds of years.


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## westwall (Apr 14, 2011)

Liability said:


> I shall now simplify, but do so accurately and fairly.
> 
> The stuff getting released into our ecosystem (some of which is indeed going outside the local area of the meltdown) is injurious to our health.  Not "might be" dangerous.  This isn't a 1970's cigarette box warning label we're talking about.  "It *IS* injurious."
> 
> ...






The stuff being released into our ecosystem CAME from the ecosystem.  It has been refined yes, but it is a naturally occuring substance.....yes even Plutonium is found in nature.

I have a couple of radiation detectors on my property and they are not picking up anything more than background radiation.  Nor will they.  The amounts being detected here are so small that my detectors are completely incapable of reading them...the amount is that small.  The DRI is so far the only research lab that has been able to detect them here in this area.

Yes it is a bad situation for the Japanese but that's all.  It will not effect you.


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## Liability (Apr 14, 2011)

westwall said:


> Liability said:
> 
> 
> > I shall now simplify, but do so accurately and fairly.
> ...



Come on.  Of course it came from nature.  Nobody is suggesting that nuclear science is magic and makes dangerous radioactive material out of nothing.  That's irrelevant.

The fact of the matter is there are no places on Earth where you could walk by an natural outcropping of rock -- even rock emitting some radioactivity above the relative background radiation -- and get a dose that could cause cell damage or radiation poisoning or illness of other kinds or death.

It is the "refining" that makes this stuff so very dangerous.

Again: when I get an xray (and I have had my share), the lab tech goes behind a lead shielded wall for a damn good reason.

And spies in Russia have gotten killed by other spies and evil-fuckers by getting minuscule amounts of Plutonium into the victims.

And while you say that the bad situation for the Japanese will not affect me, I disagree.  A:  the stuff that affects the Japanese does affect me.  Small world and very inter-dependent in big ways and small.  B:  you are expressing an article of faith.  But the reality does not agree with you.  The stuff is polluting the ocean.  The stuff has gotten into the air.  AND it's *still happening*.  And there is no real end yet even in sight.  That means a LOT more of the radioactive "pollution" is getting into the World's habitat.  It is not a closed container.  The stuff obviously is subject to dilution, but it can still spread very far and even in diluted amounts some of it is potentially lethal.  

I doubt you can even begin to quantify how bad this could end up being.  So while I generally respect you and your desire to use the facts at hand, I have to tell you, you are not taking the larger and very long term picture into account.

There is an amazing amount of information we know these days about radiation.  But there is still a great deal we do not yet know.  And this is a hell of a way to find out -- long term.


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## Ravi (Apr 14, 2011)

westwall said:


> Ravi said:
> 
> 
> > westwall said:
> ...


I'm not a genius like you but I do think salt water can fuck up a generator in short order.

You can go on looking for your pie in the sky excuse for the problem but the fact is that the reactors were built in the wrong place.


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## Valerie (Apr 14, 2011)

They're everywhere in Japan.













> Since 1973, nuclear energy has been a national strategic priority in Japan, as the nation is heavily dependent on imported fuel, with fuel imports accounting for *61% of energy production*. There has been concern about the ability of Japan's nuclear plants to withstand seismic activity. The Kashiwazaki-Kariwa Nuclear Power Plant was completely shut down for 21 months following an earthquake in 2007.
> 
> Following an earthquake, tsunami, and the failure of cooling systems at the Fukushima I Nuclear Power Plant on March 11, 2011, a nuclear emergency was declared. This was the first time a nuclear emergency had been declared in Japan, and 140,000 residents within 20 km of the plant were evacuated. The amount of radiation released is unclear, as the crisis is ongoing.[1]
> 
> Nuclear power in Japan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## westwall (Apr 14, 2011)

Liability said:


> westwall said:
> 
> 
> > Liability said:
> ...






I'll tell you what Liability, take a look at Cernobyl some day.  That was a disaster of epic proportions that killed at least 40 people immediately and radiated thousands.  I think the "official" count of radiation deaths is now up to 65 or so but the reality is that at least 1000 were killed because of the radiation.  And now you can take a tour of the facility and Pripyat (the town nearby).  Hundreds do every week.  It's been 25 years and yes there are areas that you don't want to go into but the area is recovering.

This is what Woods Hole has to say about the radioactivity that is allready in the oceans...


"What is the normal background level of radiation?
The normal background level of radiation is different for different places on the planet. Radiation in some places is higher because these receive less of the natural protection offered by Earth&#8217;s atmosphere or because they are in places where the surrounding rocks contain more radioactive substances, such as radon. In the ocean, the largest source of radiation comes from naturally occurring substances such as potassium-40 and uranium-238, which are found at levels 1,000 to 10,000 times higher than any human sources of radiation (see illustration). The largest human release of radionuclides was the result of atmospheric nuclear weapons tests carried out by the U.S., French and British during the 1950s and 60s. Despite even the high concentration of nuclear fallout in the Pacific caused by U.S. tests on the Marshall Islands, there is no known adverse health effect associated with eating seafood from the Pacific." 

As you can see the natural radiation is far greater then what man adds.

You are correct to be concerned, but don't let it get the better of you.

http://www.whoi.edu/page.do?pid=56076&tid=282&cid=94989


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## westwall (Apr 14, 2011)

Ravi said:


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Thanks for the elevation but I am far from being a genius Ravi.  I am however well versed in radiation and its cleanup.  As far as your contention they were built in the wrong place, maybe, I don't know the area well enough to make a judgment.  But, the earthquake didn't harm the reactors, that is a fact.  The tsunami knocked out the generators, that's a fact.  The Japanese had NO EMERGENCY BACKUP PLAN, and that too is a fact.  And that alone is unconsionable.


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## Valerie (Apr 14, 2011)




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## westwall (Apr 14, 2011)

Valerie said:


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The entire globe looks like that.


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## Ravi (May 27, 2011)

westwall said:


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FYI


> Nuclear fuel at the stricken Fukushima Daiichi power plant began melting  just five hours after Japans March 11 earthquake, a Japanese nuclear  engineer told a panel of U.S. scientists Thursday.


Japanese scientist: Fukushima meltdown occurred within hours of quake - The Washington Post

That sounds to me as if the earthquake itself did some damage.


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## Old Rocks (May 27, 2011)

westwall said:


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Damn, how did I miss this bit of idiocy? Lordy, lordy, since botulism is natural, and only found in small amounts it cannot hurt you. That is essentially what you are stating, ol' Walleyes. Lordy, lordy.


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## Old Rocks (May 27, 2011)

westwall said:


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Once again, Walleyes, you are going to get called on this kind of idiocy. Three of the reactors melted down. And it looks like they did so before the backup batteries died. If that is the case, it was the earthquake that damaged them.

You and BiPolar were insisting that they couldn't really meltdown, and now we know that most of the rods are in a puddle at the bottom of the reactor containment. One or more of the containments has major leaks, and one of them is the one with the Plutonium mix. You know, that stuff than cannot hurt you because it is found in nature? 

As far as your expertise is concerned, you have already proved your lack thereof when you insisted that Plutonium was essentially harmless.


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## Old Rocks (May 27, 2011)

westwall said:


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LOL. Perhaps I missed it. What active volcanoes do we have in the Mid-West? And the nearest active subduction zone is how far from Nebraska? From New York? 

Walleyes, why don't you just put "I regularly make idiotic statements" in your avatar.


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## westwall (Jun 8, 2011)

Old Rocks said:


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It's hard to keep up with your idiotic statements but I try!  As far as subduction zones in Nebraska, no there are none but there are certainly faults all over the place or don't you know how to read a geologic map?  Also Nebraska enjoys felsic volcanic formations and pillow basalts.  As far as great quakes go the New Madrid quakes of 1811 and 1812 were every bit as powerful as the japanese quake if not more so.  It takes a hell of a lot of energy to make the Mississippi go backwards for three days.


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## Ravi (Jun 8, 2011)

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## skookerasbil (Jun 8, 2011)

I remember this thread................

I also remember every radical environmental nut on here with the kneejerk reaction: "The End of the World!!!"

By the fourth day, I told everybody "the threat from here forward" is nothing more than hysterics from people with issues. Of course, chalk up another check-mate for sk00ks.

The k00k environmentalists were predicting a real Godzilla as well as blaming the tsunami on global warming!!!


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## Old Rocks (Jun 8, 2011)

We know you are an idiot. You don't have to prove it daily, Kooky.


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## Old Rocks (Jun 8, 2011)

westwall said:


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Casualties of Chernobyl Nuclear Disaster:

Casualties of Chernobyl Nuclear Disaster: Official and Other Versions
by admin on 22. Mar, 2011 in Cancer, Chernobyl, Environmental Health, Nuclear Radiation 

I. How many people died and how many more are likely to die in the future?

The total number of deaths already attributable to Chernobyl or expected in the future over the lifetime of emergency workers and local residents in the most contaminated areas is estimated to be about 4000. This includes some 50 emergency workers who died of acute radiation syndrome and nine children who died of thyroid cancer, and an estimated total of 3940 deaths from radiation-induced cancer and leukemia among the 200 000 emergency workers from 1986-1987, 116 000 evacuees and 270 000 residents of the most contaminated areas (total about 600 000). These three major cohorts were subjected to higher doses of radiation amongst all the people exposed to Chernobyl radiation.

The estimated 4000 casualties may occur during the lifetime of about 600 000 people under consideration. As about quarter of them will eventually die from spontaneous cancer not caused by Chernobyl radiation, the radiation-induced increase of about 3% will be difficult to observe. However, in the most highly exposed cohorts of emergency and recovery operation workers, some increase in particular cancers (e.g., leukemia) has already been observed.


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## KissMy (Jun 8, 2011)

Old Rocks said:


> Casualties of Chernobyl Nuclear Disaster:
> 
> Casualties of Chernobyl Nuclear Disaster: Official and Other Versions
> by admin on 22. Mar, 2011 in Cancer, Chernobyl, Environmental Health, Nuclear Radiation
> ...



If we build all the Nuclear Power Plants in the Desert there will be no people around for it to kill & no environment for it to damage. There should be less risk of a natural disaster causing a containment issue. Less risk of transporting Nuclear waste to its permanent storage site.


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## Old Rocks (Jun 8, 2011)

Kiss, one major problem. Cooling. Those towers are not for the reactor, they are giant cooling towers which require huge amounts of water. In fact, some nuclear plants in France are presently being redied for shutdown because the drougth there has reduced the water supply below the level that the can cool the reactor.


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## KissMy (Jun 8, 2011)

Old Rocks said:


> Kiss, one major problem. Cooling. Those towers are not for the reactor, they are giant cooling towers which require huge amounts of water. In fact, some nuclear plants in France are presently being redied for shutdown because the drougth there has reduced the water supply below the level that the can cool the reactor.



There is a project under way to pump a large amount of Missouri River water west through the desert to supply the West Coast with irrigation & drinking water. That same water could very easily cool power plants.

Desert Solar Thermal Power Plants also use a ton of water. I thought I read somewhere that one of those plants were shut down due to lack of water.


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## Intense (Jun 9, 2011)

Going Nuke, you might want to reprocess on site, rather than transport and store. Reasoning it would be safer in the long run. I personally do not want to see Reactors anywhere near Major Population centers. Zero Fallout during start up, operation, and shut down should be the goal, zero tolerance. Containment? Triple back up minimum. Cooling? Non-contaminated water only.  CO2 is a refrigerant and abundant, I wonder how that would incorporate into Safety, fail-safe. Remember the Blob??? 1957 was it? 

After seeing what is currently playing out in Japan my confidence in the Technology is close to totally shaken. Not that it has really changed much over the years. I have been strongly anti nuke, most of my life. I vote Dams and gas powered plants.


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## KissMy (Jun 15, 2011)

NPR & Democrats are now advocating placing Nuclear Power Plants inside neighborhoods.

Mini nuclear plants in your garden


> The miniature reactors will be factory-sealed, contain no weapons-grade material, have no moving parts and will be nearly impossible to steal because they will be encased in concrete and buried underground.
> 
> The US government has licensed the technology to Hyperion, a New Mexico-based company which said last week that it has taken its first firm orders and plans to start mass production within five years. 'Our goal is to generate electricity for 10 cents a kilowatt hour anywhere in the world,' said John Deal, chief executive of Hyperion.


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