# Gun free Britain?  Murders going to hit 10 year high...



## 2aguy

Yep....young males, raised without fathers to teach them to be adult men, mixed with 3rd world males running the drug gangs, and the British police hamstrung due to lack of manpower, money, and politically correct rules of engagment.....

London on course for highest number of killings in a decade after 2018 passes 2017 total


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## frigidweirdo

2aguy said:


> Yep....young males, raised without fathers to teach them to be adult men, mixed with 3rd world males running the drug gangs, and the British police hamstrung due to lack of manpower, money, and politically correct rules of engagment.....
> 
> London on course for highest number of killings in a decade after 2018 passes 2017 total



Why do you ask "Gun free Britain?" 

You know Britain isn't gun free, you've been told this a million times.

You're a fake news man.


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## 2aguy

frigidweirdo said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yep....young males, raised without fathers to teach them to be adult men, mixed with 3rd world males running the drug gangs, and the British police hamstrung due to lack of manpower, money, and politically correct rules of engagment.....
> 
> London on course for highest number of killings in a decade after 2018 passes 2017 total
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Why do you ask "Gun free Britain?"
> 
> You know Britain isn't gun free, you've been told this a million times.
> 
> You're a fake news man.
Click to expand...



Britain banned and confiscated handguns...which are the leading weapons there for gun crime...you know, on an island that banned them...


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## 2aguy

frigidweirdo said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yep....young males, raised without fathers to teach them to be adult men, mixed with 3rd world males running the drug gangs, and the British police hamstrung due to lack of manpower, money, and politically correct rules of engagment.....
> 
> London on course for highest number of killings in a decade after 2018 passes 2017 total
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Why do you ask "Gun free Britain?"
> 
> You know Britain isn't gun free, you've been told this a million times.
> 
> You're a fake news man.
Click to expand...



Moron....

Crime rise is biggest in a decade, ONS figures show

Ministers will also be concerned that the country is becoming increasingly violent in nature, with gun crime rising 23% to 6,375 offences,* largely driven by an increase in the use of handguns.*


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## idb

Clearly the only sensible answer is to have more guns freely available...that'll fix it.


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## 2aguy

idb said:


> Clearly the only sensible answer is to have more guns freely available...that'll fix it.




Yep....

We went from 200 million guns in private hands in the 1990s and 4.7 million people carrying guns for self defense in 1997...to close to 400-600 million guns in private hands and over 17.25  million people carrying guns for self defense in 2018...guess what happened...


--* gun murder down 49%*

*--gun crime down 75%*

*--violent crime down 72%*

Gun Homicide Rate Down 49% Since 1993 Peak; Public Unaware

Compared with 1993, the peak of U.S. gun homicides, the firearm homicide rate was 49% lower in 2010, and there were fewer deaths, even though the nation’s population grew. The victimization rate for other violent crimes with a firearm—assaults, robberies and sex crimes—was 75% lower in 2011 than in 1993. Violent non-fatal crime victimization overall (with or without a firearm) also is down markedly (72%) over two decades.


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## frigidweirdo

2aguy said:


> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yep....young males, raised without fathers to teach them to be adult men, mixed with 3rd world males running the drug gangs, and the British police hamstrung due to lack of manpower, money, and politically correct rules of engagment.....
> 
> London on course for highest number of killings in a decade after 2018 passes 2017 total
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Why do you ask "Gun free Britain?"
> 
> You know Britain isn't gun free, you've been told this a million times.
> 
> You're a fake news man.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Moron....
> 
> Crime rise is biggest in a decade, ONS figures show
> 
> Ministers will also be concerned that the country is becoming increasingly violent in nature, with gun crime rising 23% to 6,375 offences,* largely driven by an increase in the use of handguns.*
Click to expand...


Hilarious.

The ONLY thing you have to say of your own is an insult. Everyone knows insults are to hide poor arguments.

Then in response to me saying that Britain has guns, you respond with a link to crime rise in Britain.

How on Earth does showing Britain has a crime rise prove that Britain doesn't have guns? 

Oh, it doesn't.

Maybe you should have added "I'm a...." before you one word.


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## frigidweirdo

idb said:


> Clearly the only sensible answer is to have more guns freely available...that'll fix it.



Yeah, because the first world country with the most guns is also the first world country with the highest murder rates. 

Yeah, let's fix it by allowing humans to kill each other..... that'll solve the problem, eventually, of humans with guns.


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## 2aguy

frigidweirdo said:


> idb said:
> 
> 
> 
> Clearly the only sensible answer is to have more guns freely available...that'll fix it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, because the first world country with the most guns is also the first world country with the highest murder rates.
> 
> Yeah, let's fix it by allowing humans to kill each other..... that'll solve the problem, eventually, of humans with guns.
Click to expand...



It seemed to lower the gun crime rate here...while the gun crime rate in Britain, where they banned and confiscated guns is going up....

We went from 200 million guns in private hands in the 1990s and 4.7 million people carrying guns for self defense in 1997...to close to 400-600 million guns in private hands and over 17.25  million people carrying guns for self defense in 2018...guess what happened...


--* gun murder down 49%*

*--gun crime down 75%*

*--violent crime down 72%*

Gun Homicide Rate Down 49% Since 1993 Peak; Public Unaware

Compared with 1993, the peak of U.S. gun homicides, the firearm homicide rate was 49% lower in 2010, and there were fewer deaths, even though the nation’s population grew. The victimization rate for other violent crimes with a firearm—assaults, robberies and sex crimes—was 75% lower in 2011 than in 1993. Violent non-fatal crime victimization overall (with or without a firearm) also is down markedly (72%) over two decades.
-----

*Britain....*


Crime rise is biggest in a decade, ONS figures show

Ministers will also be concerned that the country is becoming increasingly violent in nature, with gun crime rising 23% to 6,375 offences,* largely driven by an increase in the use of handguns.*

*---*

Police urged to ‘follow the gun’ to cut smuggling amid rise in firearm crime

The findings, by the Birmingham-based National Ballistics Intelligence Network, come as concern grows over a 20% rise in gun crime in England and Wales. 

----

Figures released last month by the Office for National Statistics showed a 20% rise in firearms incidents in England and Wales – 6,694 offences during the year up to September 2017.
----

The arrest and jailing for 30 years in 2016 of Harry Shilling, caught trying to smuggle £100,000-worth of guns from France into the UK, underlined how susceptible the UK is to smuggling. Officers found 22 assault rifles and nine submachine guns, as well as 1,500 rounds of ammunition, after intercepting a boat at a marina in Kent.

Last week a Birmingham physiotherapist, Mohinder Surdhar, who supplied guns and ammunition to gangs, including weapons used in three murders, was jailed for 14 years.
==========
U.K. Begins Another Gun Surrender Initiative Amid Increase in Gun Crime

The United Kingdom's National Ballistics Intelligence Service (NABIS) is conducting a new gun surrender program from Nov. 13 to Nov. 26 after gun crime in England and Wales increased by more than a quarter in the past year.
The Office for National Statistics found a 27 percent increase in crimes involving firearms during its most recent review of crime data.

*Despite a near ban on the civilian ownership of handguns the review found crimes committed with handguns increased by 25 percent and accounted for the majority of gun crimes. The agency said the increases in 2016 were part of a multiyear trend.*


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## cwise76

2aguy said:


> Yep....young males, raised without fathers to teach them to be adult men, mixed with 3rd world males running the drug gangs, and the British police hamstrung due to lack of manpower, money, and politically correct rules of engagment.....
> 
> London on course for highest number of killings in a decade after 2018 passes 2017 total


You’re appetite is insatiable


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## frigidweirdo

2aguy said:


> idb said:
> 
> 
> 
> Clearly the only sensible answer is to have more guns freely available...that'll fix it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yep....
> 
> We went from 200 million guns in private hands in the 1990s and 4.7 million people carrying guns for self defense in 1997...to close to 400-600 million guns in private hands and over 17.25  million people carrying guns for self defense in 2018...guess what happened...
> 
> 
> --* gun murder down 49%*
> 
> *--gun crime down 75%*
> 
> *--violent crime down 72%*
> 
> Gun Homicide Rate Down 49% Since 1993 Peak; Public Unaware
> 
> Compared with 1993, the peak of U.S. gun homicides, the firearm homicide rate was 49% lower in 2010, and there were fewer deaths, even though the nation’s population grew. The victimization rate for other violent crimes with a firearm—assaults, robberies and sex crimes—was 75% lower in 2011 than in 1993. Violent non-fatal crime victimization overall (with or without a firearm) also is down markedly (72%) over two decades.
Click to expand...


This is hilarious.

It's taking a few facts and believing you can manipulate people with only a small portion and a massive fairy tale of an interpretation.

Gun ownership

Gun ownership in the U.S. 1972-2017 | Statistic

Crime statistics

United States Crime Rates 1960 - 2017

In 1972 there was 43% gun ownership. 
In 2017 there was 42% gun ownership.

It seems to fluctuate between 37% and 47%, though this might just be how they collect the data. Either way there doesn't seem to be a rise in people owning guns. Just an increase in POPULATION which means more people own guns, because there are more people. (Read, OP couldn't use statistics honestly if he tried)

Gun ownership was probably similar in the 1950s when crime rates were lower too. 







That US murder rates went down, doesn't mean much when they've not been below 4 murders per 100,000 people in the last 100 something years, and when the UK hasn't been above 1.5 in the last 200 years.

And increase of crime happens at times, and it decreases at times.

To simply say "crime is rising" therefore it's bad, is to ignore so much stuff and to be totally dishonest.

The fact that crime is rising is because the UK has had a Conservative government in power for the last 8 years. They've cut police spending, they've cut spending on education, on things like that.

Dishonesty is the only thing you'll find in the OP's posts in general, and there's no exception here.


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## frigidweirdo

2aguy said:


> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> idb said:
> 
> 
> 
> Clearly the only sensible answer is to have more guns freely available...that'll fix it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, because the first world country with the most guns is also the first world country with the highest murder rates.
> 
> Yeah, let's fix it by allowing humans to kill each other..... that'll solve the problem, eventually, of humans with guns.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> It seemed to lower the gun crime rate here...while the gun crime rate in Britain, where they banned and confiscated guns is going up....
> 
> We went from 200 million guns in private hands in the 1990s and 4.7 million people carrying guns for self defense in 1997...to close to 400-600 million guns in private hands and over 17.25  million people carrying guns for self defense in 2018...guess what happened...
> 
> 
> --* gun murder down 49%*
> 
> *--gun crime down 75%*
> 
> *--violent crime down 72%*
> 
> Gun Homicide Rate Down 49% Since 1993 Peak; Public Unaware
> 
> Compared with 1993, the peak of U.S. gun homicides, the firearm homicide rate was 49% lower in 2010, and there were fewer deaths, even though the nation’s population grew. The victimization rate for other violent crimes with a firearm—assaults, robberies and sex crimes—was 75% lower in 2011 than in 1993. Violent non-fatal crime victimization overall (with or without a firearm) also is down markedly (72%) over two decades.
> -----
> 
> *Britain....*
> 
> 
> Crime rise is biggest in a decade, ONS figures show
> 
> Ministers will also be concerned that the country is becoming increasingly violent in nature, with gun crime rising 23% to 6,375 offences,* largely driven by an increase in the use of handguns.*
> 
> *---*
> 
> Police urged to ‘follow the gun’ to cut smuggling amid rise in firearm crime
> 
> The findings, by the Birmingham-based National Ballistics Intelligence Network, come as concern grows over a 20% rise in gun crime in England and Wales.
> 
> ----
> 
> Figures released last month by the Office for National Statistics showed a 20% rise in firearms incidents in England and Wales – 6,694 offences during the year up to September 2017.
> ----
> 
> The arrest and jailing for 30 years in 2016 of Harry Shilling, caught trying to smuggle £100,000-worth of guns from France into the UK, underlined how susceptible the UK is to smuggling. Officers found 22 assault rifles and nine submachine guns, as well as 1,500 rounds of ammunition, after intercepting a boat at a marina in Kent.
> 
> Last week a Birmingham physiotherapist, Mohinder Surdhar, who supplied guns and ammunition to gangs, including weapons used in three murders, was jailed for 14 years.
> ==========
> U.K. Begins Another Gun Surrender Initiative Amid Increase in Gun Crime
> 
> The United Kingdom's National Ballistics Intelligence Service (NABIS) is conducting a new gun surrender program from Nov. 13 to Nov. 26 after gun crime in England and Wales increased by more than a quarter in the past year.
> The Office for National Statistics found a 27 percent increase in crimes involving firearms during its most recent review of crime data.
> 
> *Despite a near ban on the civilian ownership of handguns the review found crimes committed with handguns increased by 25 percent and accounted for the majority of gun crimes. The agency said the increases in 2016 were part of a multiyear trend.*
Click to expand...


Where is murder higher? The US or the UK?

Where is gun crime higher? The US or the UK?


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## 2aguy

frigidweirdo said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> idb said:
> 
> 
> 
> Clearly the only sensible answer is to have more guns freely available...that'll fix it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yep....
> 
> We went from 200 million guns in private hands in the 1990s and 4.7 million people carrying guns for self defense in 1997...to close to 400-600 million guns in private hands and over 17.25  million people carrying guns for self defense in 2018...guess what happened...
> 
> 
> --* gun murder down 49%*
> 
> *--gun crime down 75%*
> 
> *--violent crime down 72%*
> 
> Gun Homicide Rate Down 49% Since 1993 Peak; Public Unaware
> 
> Compared with 1993, the peak of U.S. gun homicides, the firearm homicide rate was 49% lower in 2010, and there were fewer deaths, even though the nation’s population grew. The victimization rate for other violent crimes with a firearm—assaults, robberies and sex crimes—was 75% lower in 2011 than in 1993. Violent non-fatal crime victimization overall (with or without a firearm) also is down markedly (72%) over two decades.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> This is hilarious.
> 
> It's taking a few facts and believing you can manipulate people with only a small portion and a massive fairy tale of an interpretation.
> 
> Gun ownership
> 
> Gun ownership in the U.S. 1972-2017 | Statistic
> 
> Crime statistics
> 
> United States Crime Rates 1960 - 2017
> 
> In 1972 there was 43% gun ownership.
> In 2017 there was 42% gun ownership.
> 
> It seems to fluctuate between 37% and 47%, though this might just be how they collect the data. Either way there doesn't seem to be a rise in people owning guns. Just an increase in POPULATION which means more people own guns, because there are more people. (Read, OP couldn't use statistics honestly if he tried)
> 
> Gun ownership was probably similar in the 1950s when crime rates were lower too.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That US murder rates went down, doesn't mean much when they've not been below 4 murders per 100,000 people in the last 100 something years, and when the UK hasn't been above 1.5 in the last 200 years.
> 
> And increase of crime happens at times, and it decreases at times.
> 
> To simply say "crime is rising" therefore it's bad, is to ignore so much stuff and to be totally dishonest.
> 
> The fact that crime is rising is because the UK has had a Conservative government in power for the last 8 years. They've cut police spending, they've cut spending on education, on things like that.
> 
> Dishonesty is the only thing you'll find in the OP's posts in general, and there's no exception here.
Click to expand...



You just admitted in your post that gun crime is not dependent on gun control......it is about time you admitted it.   Criminals use guns...they don't always use them for murder.....and Britain has a growing gun crime problem......


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## 2aguy

frigidweirdo said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> idb said:
> 
> 
> 
> Clearly the only sensible answer is to have more guns freely available...that'll fix it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, because the first world country with the most guns is also the first world country with the highest murder rates.
> 
> Yeah, let's fix it by allowing humans to kill each other..... that'll solve the problem, eventually, of humans with guns.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> It seemed to lower the gun crime rate here...while the gun crime rate in Britain, where they banned and confiscated guns is going up....
> 
> We went from 200 million guns in private hands in the 1990s and 4.7 million people carrying guns for self defense in 1997...to close to 400-600 million guns in private hands and over 17.25  million people carrying guns for self defense in 2018...guess what happened...
> 
> 
> --* gun murder down 49%*
> 
> *--gun crime down 75%*
> 
> *--violent crime down 72%*
> 
> Gun Homicide Rate Down 49% Since 1993 Peak; Public Unaware
> 
> Compared with 1993, the peak of U.S. gun homicides, the firearm homicide rate was 49% lower in 2010, and there were fewer deaths, even though the nation’s population grew. The victimization rate for other violent crimes with a firearm—assaults, robberies and sex crimes—was 75% lower in 2011 than in 1993. Violent non-fatal crime victimization overall (with or without a firearm) also is down markedly (72%) over two decades.
> -----
> 
> *Britain....*
> 
> 
> Crime rise is biggest in a decade, ONS figures show
> 
> Ministers will also be concerned that the country is becoming increasingly violent in nature, with gun crime rising 23% to 6,375 offences,* largely driven by an increase in the use of handguns.*
> 
> *---*
> 
> Police urged to ‘follow the gun’ to cut smuggling amid rise in firearm crime
> 
> The findings, by the Birmingham-based National Ballistics Intelligence Network, come as concern grows over a 20% rise in gun crime in England and Wales.
> 
> ----
> 
> Figures released last month by the Office for National Statistics showed a 20% rise in firearms incidents in England and Wales – 6,694 offences during the year up to September 2017.
> ----
> 
> The arrest and jailing for 30 years in 2016 of Harry Shilling, caught trying to smuggle £100,000-worth of guns from France into the UK, underlined how susceptible the UK is to smuggling. Officers found 22 assault rifles and nine submachine guns, as well as 1,500 rounds of ammunition, after intercepting a boat at a marina in Kent.
> 
> Last week a Birmingham physiotherapist, Mohinder Surdhar, who supplied guns and ammunition to gangs, including weapons used in three murders, was jailed for 14 years.
> ==========
> U.K. Begins Another Gun Surrender Initiative Amid Increase in Gun Crime
> 
> The United Kingdom's National Ballistics Intelligence Service (NABIS) is conducting a new gun surrender program from Nov. 13 to Nov. 26 after gun crime in England and Wales increased by more than a quarter in the past year.
> The Office for National Statistics found a 27 percent increase in crimes involving firearms during its most recent review of crime data.
> 
> *Despite a near ban on the civilian ownership of handguns the review found crimes committed with handguns increased by 25 percent and accounted for the majority of gun crimes. The agency said the increases in 2016 were part of a multiyear trend.*
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Where is murder higher? The US or the UK?
> 
> Where is gun crime higher? The US or the UK?
Click to expand...



Murder has always been higher in the U.S. even before they banned guns in the U.K. showing that their gun control laws had nothing to do with their gun murder rates....


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## 2aguy

frigidweirdo said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> idb said:
> 
> 
> 
> Clearly the only sensible answer is to have more guns freely available...that'll fix it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, because the first world country with the most guns is also the first world country with the highest murder rates.
> 
> Yeah, let's fix it by allowing humans to kill each other..... that'll solve the problem, eventually, of humans with guns.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> It seemed to lower the gun crime rate here...while the gun crime rate in Britain, where they banned and confiscated guns is going up....
> 
> We went from 200 million guns in private hands in the 1990s and 4.7 million people carrying guns for self defense in 1997...to close to 400-600 million guns in private hands and over 17.25  million people carrying guns for self defense in 2018...guess what happened...
> 
> 
> --* gun murder down 49%*
> 
> *--gun crime down 75%*
> 
> *--violent crime down 72%*
> 
> Gun Homicide Rate Down 49% Since 1993 Peak; Public Unaware
> 
> Compared with 1993, the peak of U.S. gun homicides, the firearm homicide rate was 49% lower in 2010, and there were fewer deaths, even though the nation’s population grew. The victimization rate for other violent crimes with a firearm—assaults, robberies and sex crimes—was 75% lower in 2011 than in 1993. Violent non-fatal crime victimization overall (with or without a firearm) also is down markedly (72%) over two decades.
> -----
> 
> *Britain....*
> 
> 
> Crime rise is biggest in a decade, ONS figures show
> 
> Ministers will also be concerned that the country is becoming increasingly violent in nature, with gun crime rising 23% to 6,375 offences,* largely driven by an increase in the use of handguns.*
> 
> *---*
> 
> Police urged to ‘follow the gun’ to cut smuggling amid rise in firearm crime
> 
> The findings, by the Birmingham-based National Ballistics Intelligence Network, come as concern grows over a 20% rise in gun crime in England and Wales.
> 
> ----
> 
> Figures released last month by the Office for National Statistics showed a 20% rise in firearms incidents in England and Wales – 6,694 offences during the year up to September 2017.
> ----
> 
> The arrest and jailing for 30 years in 2016 of Harry Shilling, caught trying to smuggle £100,000-worth of guns from France into the UK, underlined how susceptible the UK is to smuggling. Officers found 22 assault rifles and nine submachine guns, as well as 1,500 rounds of ammunition, after intercepting a boat at a marina in Kent.
> 
> Last week a Birmingham physiotherapist, Mohinder Surdhar, who supplied guns and ammunition to gangs, including weapons used in three murders, was jailed for 14 years.
> ==========
> U.K. Begins Another Gun Surrender Initiative Amid Increase in Gun Crime
> 
> The United Kingdom's National Ballistics Intelligence Service (NABIS) is conducting a new gun surrender program from Nov. 13 to Nov. 26 after gun crime in England and Wales increased by more than a quarter in the past year.
> The Office for National Statistics found a 27 percent increase in crimes involving firearms during its most recent review of crime data.
> 
> *Despite a near ban on the civilian ownership of handguns the review found crimes committed with handguns increased by 25 percent and accounted for the majority of gun crimes. The agency said the increases in 2016 were part of a multiyear trend.*
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Where is murder higher? The US or the UK?
> 
> Where is gun crime higher? The US or the UK?
Click to expand...



Gun crime is going down in the U.S. it is going up in the U.K........


----------



## idb

2aguy said:


> idb said:
> 
> 
> 
> Clearly the only sensible answer is to have more guns freely available...that'll fix it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yep....
> 
> We went from 200 million guns in private hands in the 1990s and 4.7 million people carrying guns for self defense in 1997...to close to 400-600 million guns in private hands and over 17.25  million people carrying guns for self defense in 2018...guess what happened...
> 
> 
> --* gun murder down 49%*
> 
> *--gun crime down 75%*
> 
> *--violent crime down 72%*
> 
> Gun Homicide Rate Down 49% Since 1993 Peak; Public Unaware
> 
> Compared with 1993, the peak of U.S. gun homicides, the firearm homicide rate was 49% lower in 2010, and there were fewer deaths, even though the nation’s population grew. The victimization rate for other violent crimes with a firearm—assaults, robberies and sex crimes—was 75% lower in 2011 than in 1993. Violent non-fatal crime victimization overall (with or without a firearm) also is down markedly (72%) over two decades.
Click to expand...

Gun ownership has been falling since the seventies.

The percent of American households owning guns is at a near-40 year low in the latest CBS News poll released this month.

According to the survey, which was conducted among 1,001 Americans in the aftermath of the Orlando nightclub shooting, 36 percent of U.S. adults either own a firearm personally, or live with someone who does. That's the lowest rate of gun ownership in the CBS poll going back to 1978. It's down 17 points from the highest recorded rate in 1994, and nearly 10 percentage points from 2012.

Different national polls tend to show slightly different rates of gun ownership. The latest household gun ownership rate in the General Social Survey, in 2014, was 32 percent. The October 2015 Gallup survey showed a higher rate of 43 percent, including guns kept on property outside the home.

But the downward trend in gun ownership remains consistent across the national polls.
American gun ownership drops to lowest in nearly 40 years


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## idb

2aguy said:


> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> idb said:
> 
> 
> 
> Clearly the only sensible answer is to have more guns freely available...that'll fix it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, because the first world country with the most guns is also the first world country with the highest murder rates.
> 
> Yeah, let's fix it by allowing humans to kill each other..... that'll solve the problem, eventually, of humans with guns.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> It seemed to lower the gun crime rate here...while the gun crime rate in Britain, where they banned and confiscated guns is going up....
> 
> We went from 200 million guns in private hands in the 1990s and 4.7 million people carrying guns for self defense in 1997...to close to 400-600 million guns in private hands and over 17.25  million people carrying guns for self defense in 2018...guess what happened...
> 
> 
> --* gun murder down 49%*
> 
> *--gun crime down 75%*
> 
> *--violent crime down 72%*
> 
> Gun Homicide Rate Down 49% Since 1993 Peak; Public Unaware
> 
> Compared with 1993, the peak of U.S. gun homicides, the firearm homicide rate was 49% lower in 2010, and there were fewer deaths, even though the nation’s population grew. The victimization rate for other violent crimes with a firearm—assaults, robberies and sex crimes—was 75% lower in 2011 than in 1993. Violent non-fatal crime victimization overall (with or without a firearm) also is down markedly (72%) over two decades.
> -----
> 
> *Britain....*
> 
> 
> Crime rise is biggest in a decade, ONS figures show
> 
> Ministers will also be concerned that the country is becoming increasingly violent in nature, with gun crime rising 23% to 6,375 offences,* largely driven by an increase in the use of handguns.*
> 
> *---*
> 
> Police urged to ‘follow the gun’ to cut smuggling amid rise in firearm crime
> 
> The findings, by the Birmingham-based National Ballistics Intelligence Network, come as concern grows over a 20% rise in gun crime in England and Wales.
> 
> ----
> 
> Figures released last month by the Office for National Statistics showed a 20% rise in firearms incidents in England and Wales – 6,694 offences during the year up to September 2017.
> ----
> 
> The arrest and jailing for 30 years in 2016 of Harry Shilling, caught trying to smuggle £100,000-worth of guns from France into the UK, underlined how susceptible the UK is to smuggling. Officers found 22 assault rifles and nine submachine guns, as well as 1,500 rounds of ammunition, after intercepting a boat at a marina in Kent.
> 
> Last week a Birmingham physiotherapist, Mohinder Surdhar, who supplied guns and ammunition to gangs, including weapons used in three murders, was jailed for 14 years.
> ==========
> U.K. Begins Another Gun Surrender Initiative Amid Increase in Gun Crime
> 
> The United Kingdom's National Ballistics Intelligence Service (NABIS) is conducting a new gun surrender program from Nov. 13 to Nov. 26 after gun crime in England and Wales increased by more than a quarter in the past year.
> The Office for National Statistics found a 27 percent increase in crimes involving firearms during its most recent review of crime data.
> 
> *Despite a near ban on the civilian ownership of handguns the review found crimes committed with handguns increased by 25 percent and accounted for the majority of gun crimes. The agency said the increases in 2016 were part of a multiyear trend.*
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Where is murder higher? The US or the UK?
> 
> Where is gun crime higher? The US or the UK?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Gun crime is going down in the U.S. it is going up in the U.K........
Click to expand...

You do understand statistics I assume?
A small increase in numbers from a small base will be a large increase in percentage.
E.g. if you have five murders in one year...then six murders the following year...what is the percentage increase?


2aguy said:


> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> idb said:
> 
> 
> 
> Clearly the only sensible answer is to have more guns freely available...that'll fix it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, because the first world country with the most guns is also the first world country with the highest murder rates.
> 
> Yeah, let's fix it by allowing humans to kill each other..... that'll solve the problem, eventually, of humans with guns.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> It seemed to lower the gun crime rate here...while the gun crime rate in Britain, where they banned and confiscated guns is going up....
> 
> We went from 200 million guns in private hands in the 1990s and 4.7 million people carrying guns for self defense in 1997...to close to 400-600 million guns in private hands and over 17.25  million people carrying guns for self defense in 2018...guess what happened...
> 
> 
> --* gun murder down 49%*
> 
> *--gun crime down 75%*
> 
> *--violent crime down 72%*
> 
> Gun Homicide Rate Down 49% Since 1993 Peak; Public Unaware
> 
> Compared with 1993, the peak of U.S. gun homicides, the firearm homicide rate was 49% lower in 2010, and there were fewer deaths, even though the nation’s population grew. The victimization rate for other violent crimes with a firearm—assaults, robberies and sex crimes—was 75% lower in 2011 than in 1993. Violent non-fatal crime victimization overall (with or without a firearm) also is down markedly (72%) over two decades.
> -----
> 
> *Britain....*
> 
> 
> Crime rise is biggest in a decade, ONS figures show
> 
> Ministers will also be concerned that the country is becoming increasingly violent in nature, with gun crime rising 23% to 6,375 offences,* largely driven by an increase in the use of handguns.*
> 
> *---*
> 
> Police urged to ‘follow the gun’ to cut smuggling amid rise in firearm crime
> 
> The findings, by the Birmingham-based National Ballistics Intelligence Network, come as concern grows over a 20% rise in gun crime in England and Wales.
> 
> ----
> 
> Figures released last month by the Office for National Statistics showed a 20% rise in firearms incidents in England and Wales – 6,694 offences during the year up to September 2017.
> ----
> 
> The arrest and jailing for 30 years in 2016 of Harry Shilling, caught trying to smuggle £100,000-worth of guns from France into the UK, underlined how susceptible the UK is to smuggling. Officers found 22 assault rifles and nine submachine guns, as well as 1,500 rounds of ammunition, after intercepting a boat at a marina in Kent.
> 
> Last week a Birmingham physiotherapist, Mohinder Surdhar, who supplied guns and ammunition to gangs, including weapons used in three murders, was jailed for 14 years.
> ==========
> U.K. Begins Another Gun Surrender Initiative Amid Increase in Gun Crime
> 
> The United Kingdom's National Ballistics Intelligence Service (NABIS) is conducting a new gun surrender program from Nov. 13 to Nov. 26 after gun crime in England and Wales increased by more than a quarter in the past year.
> The Office for National Statistics found a 27 percent increase in crimes involving firearms during its most recent review of crime data.
> 
> *Despite a near ban on the civilian ownership of handguns the review found crimes committed with handguns increased by 25 percent and accounted for the majority of gun crimes. The agency said the increases in 2016 were part of a multiyear trend.*
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Where is murder higher? The US or the UK?
> 
> Where is gun crime higher? The US or the UK?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Gun crime is going down in the U.S. it is going up in the U.K........
Click to expand...

I count 8 firearm deaths in the UK in the year to March 2017.

Homicide in England and Wales - Office for National Statistics


----------



## idb

2aguy said:


> Yep....young males, raised without fathers to teach them to be adult men, mixed with 3rd world males running the drug gangs, and the British police hamstrung due to lack of manpower, money, and politically correct rules of engagment.....
> 
> London on course for highest number of killings in a decade after 2018 passes 2017 total


You do realise that London isn't Britain...don't you?


----------



## frigidweirdo

2aguy said:


> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> idb said:
> 
> 
> 
> Clearly the only sensible answer is to have more guns freely available...that'll fix it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, because the first world country with the most guns is also the first world country with the highest murder rates.
> 
> Yeah, let's fix it by allowing humans to kill each other..... that'll solve the problem, eventually, of humans with guns.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> It seemed to lower the gun crime rate here...while the gun crime rate in Britain, where they banned and confiscated guns is going up....
> 
> We went from 200 million guns in private hands in the 1990s and 4.7 million people carrying guns for self defense in 1997...to close to 400-600 million guns in private hands and over 17.25  million people carrying guns for self defense in 2018...guess what happened...
> 
> 
> --* gun murder down 49%*
> 
> *--gun crime down 75%*
> 
> *--violent crime down 72%*
> 
> Gun Homicide Rate Down 49% Since 1993 Peak; Public Unaware
> 
> Compared with 1993, the peak of U.S. gun homicides, the firearm homicide rate was 49% lower in 2010, and there were fewer deaths, even though the nation’s population grew. The victimization rate for other violent crimes with a firearm—assaults, robberies and sex crimes—was 75% lower in 2011 than in 1993. Violent non-fatal crime victimization overall (with or without a firearm) also is down markedly (72%) over two decades.
> -----
> 
> *Britain....*
> 
> 
> Crime rise is biggest in a decade, ONS figures show
> 
> Ministers will also be concerned that the country is becoming increasingly violent in nature, with gun crime rising 23% to 6,375 offences,* largely driven by an increase in the use of handguns.*
> 
> *---*
> 
> Police urged to ‘follow the gun’ to cut smuggling amid rise in firearm crime
> 
> The findings, by the Birmingham-based National Ballistics Intelligence Network, come as concern grows over a 20% rise in gun crime in England and Wales.
> 
> ----
> 
> Figures released last month by the Office for National Statistics showed a 20% rise in firearms incidents in England and Wales – 6,694 offences during the year up to September 2017.
> ----
> 
> The arrest and jailing for 30 years in 2016 of Harry Shilling, caught trying to smuggle £100,000-worth of guns from France into the UK, underlined how susceptible the UK is to smuggling. Officers found 22 assault rifles and nine submachine guns, as well as 1,500 rounds of ammunition, after intercepting a boat at a marina in Kent.
> 
> Last week a Birmingham physiotherapist, Mohinder Surdhar, who supplied guns and ammunition to gangs, including weapons used in three murders, was jailed for 14 years.
> ==========
> U.K. Begins Another Gun Surrender Initiative Amid Increase in Gun Crime
> 
> The United Kingdom's National Ballistics Intelligence Service (NABIS) is conducting a new gun surrender program from Nov. 13 to Nov. 26 after gun crime in England and Wales increased by more than a quarter in the past year.
> The Office for National Statistics found a 27 percent increase in crimes involving firearms during its most recent review of crime data.
> 
> *Despite a near ban on the civilian ownership of handguns the review found crimes committed with handguns increased by 25 percent and accounted for the majority of gun crimes. The agency said the increases in 2016 were part of a multiyear trend.*
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Where is murder higher? The US or the UK?
> 
> Where is gun crime higher? The US or the UK?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Gun crime is going down in the U.S. it is going up in the U.K........
Click to expand...


I asked you a question, you respond with something that has NOTHING to do with the questions I asked.

Try again. You get an F for "fucking hell".


----------



## frigidweirdo

2aguy said:


> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> idb said:
> 
> 
> 
> Clearly the only sensible answer is to have more guns freely available...that'll fix it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, because the first world country with the most guns is also the first world country with the highest murder rates.
> 
> Yeah, let's fix it by allowing humans to kill each other..... that'll solve the problem, eventually, of humans with guns.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> It seemed to lower the gun crime rate here...while the gun crime rate in Britain, where they banned and confiscated guns is going up....
> 
> We went from 200 million guns in private hands in the 1990s and 4.7 million people carrying guns for self defense in 1997...to close to 400-600 million guns in private hands and over 17.25  million people carrying guns for self defense in 2018...guess what happened...
> 
> 
> --* gun murder down 49%*
> 
> *--gun crime down 75%*
> 
> *--violent crime down 72%*
> 
> Gun Homicide Rate Down 49% Since 1993 Peak; Public Unaware
> 
> Compared with 1993, the peak of U.S. gun homicides, the firearm homicide rate was 49% lower in 2010, and there were fewer deaths, even though the nation’s population grew. The victimization rate for other violent crimes with a firearm—assaults, robberies and sex crimes—was 75% lower in 2011 than in 1993. Violent non-fatal crime victimization overall (with or without a firearm) also is down markedly (72%) over two decades.
> -----
> 
> *Britain....*
> 
> 
> Crime rise is biggest in a decade, ONS figures show
> 
> Ministers will also be concerned that the country is becoming increasingly violent in nature, with gun crime rising 23% to 6,375 offences,* largely driven by an increase in the use of handguns.*
> 
> *---*
> 
> Police urged to ‘follow the gun’ to cut smuggling amid rise in firearm crime
> 
> The findings, by the Birmingham-based National Ballistics Intelligence Network, come as concern grows over a 20% rise in gun crime in England and Wales.
> 
> ----
> 
> Figures released last month by the Office for National Statistics showed a 20% rise in firearms incidents in England and Wales – 6,694 offences during the year up to September 2017.
> ----
> 
> The arrest and jailing for 30 years in 2016 of Harry Shilling, caught trying to smuggle £100,000-worth of guns from France into the UK, underlined how susceptible the UK is to smuggling. Officers found 22 assault rifles and nine submachine guns, as well as 1,500 rounds of ammunition, after intercepting a boat at a marina in Kent.
> 
> Last week a Birmingham physiotherapist, Mohinder Surdhar, who supplied guns and ammunition to gangs, including weapons used in three murders, was jailed for 14 years.
> ==========
> U.K. Begins Another Gun Surrender Initiative Amid Increase in Gun Crime
> 
> The United Kingdom's National Ballistics Intelligence Service (NABIS) is conducting a new gun surrender program from Nov. 13 to Nov. 26 after gun crime in England and Wales increased by more than a quarter in the past year.
> The Office for National Statistics found a 27 percent increase in crimes involving firearms during its most recent review of crime data.
> 
> *Despite a near ban on the civilian ownership of handguns the review found crimes committed with handguns increased by 25 percent and accounted for the majority of gun crimes. The agency said the increases in 2016 were part of a multiyear trend.*
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Where is murder higher? The US or the UK?
> 
> Where is gun crime higher? The US or the UK?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Murder has always been higher in the U.S. even before they banned guns in the U.K. showing that their gun control laws had nothing to do with their gun murder rates....
Click to expand...


Right, the US has always had guns and always had higher murder rates.

The UK has always had less guns and always had less murders.

What does this say to you? 

You're trying to make the argument that an increase in crime is bad and a reduction is good. You're being misleading at best, and conniving when people see what you're actually doing. 

Someone else has made this argument better than me, so I'll let you reply to them.


----------



## frigidweirdo

2aguy said:


> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> idb said:
> 
> 
> 
> Clearly the only sensible answer is to have more guns freely available...that'll fix it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yep....
> 
> We went from 200 million guns in private hands in the 1990s and 4.7 million people carrying guns for self defense in 1997...to close to 400-600 million guns in private hands and over 17.25  million people carrying guns for self defense in 2018...guess what happened...
> 
> 
> --* gun murder down 49%*
> 
> *--gun crime down 75%*
> 
> *--violent crime down 72%*
> 
> Gun Homicide Rate Down 49% Since 1993 Peak; Public Unaware
> 
> Compared with 1993, the peak of U.S. gun homicides, the firearm homicide rate was 49% lower in 2010, and there were fewer deaths, even though the nation’s population grew. The victimization rate for other violent crimes with a firearm—assaults, robberies and sex crimes—was 75% lower in 2011 than in 1993. Violent non-fatal crime victimization overall (with or without a firearm) also is down markedly (72%) over two decades.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> This is hilarious.
> 
> It's taking a few facts and believing you can manipulate people with only a small portion and a massive fairy tale of an interpretation.
> 
> Gun ownership
> 
> Gun ownership in the U.S. 1972-2017 | Statistic
> 
> Crime statistics
> 
> United States Crime Rates 1960 - 2017
> 
> In 1972 there was 43% gun ownership.
> In 2017 there was 42% gun ownership.
> 
> It seems to fluctuate between 37% and 47%, though this might just be how they collect the data. Either way there doesn't seem to be a rise in people owning guns. Just an increase in POPULATION which means more people own guns, because there are more people. (Read, OP couldn't use statistics honestly if he tried)
> 
> Gun ownership was probably similar in the 1950s when crime rates were lower too.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That US murder rates went down, doesn't mean much when they've not been below 4 murders per 100,000 people in the last 100 something years, and when the UK hasn't been above 1.5 in the last 200 years.
> 
> And increase of crime happens at times, and it decreases at times.
> 
> To simply say "crime is rising" therefore it's bad, is to ignore so much stuff and to be totally dishonest.
> 
> The fact that crime is rising is because the UK has had a Conservative government in power for the last 8 years. They've cut police spending, they've cut spending on education, on things like that.
> 
> Dishonesty is the only thing you'll find in the OP's posts in general, and there's no exception here.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> You just admitted in your post that gun crime is not dependent on gun control......it is about time you admitted it.   Criminals use guns...they don't always use them for murder.....and Britain has a growing gun crime problem......
Click to expand...


Yes, I admit that the number of guns does not lead to X amount of gun crime or gun murders. 

This topic is not just "this leads to that every single time". There are lots and lots of factors in what leads to higher murder rates. But then dealing with lots and lots of factors with a guy who repeatedly misuses single facts and statistics is going to be futile, isn't it?

The only time when complexity is convenient for you is when your simplistic argument has been destroyed and you're clinging on to whatever you can find.

You can't even be honest enough to answer questions properly, but you continue to misrepresent every single time. Oh, and insult. Remember the "Moron" and then your reason why I was a "Moron" was you not responding to what I wrote and saying something completely disconnected with what I said?


----------



## 2aguy

idb said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> idb said:
> 
> 
> 
> Clearly the only sensible answer is to have more guns freely available...that'll fix it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, because the first world country with the most guns is also the first world country with the highest murder rates.
> 
> Yeah, let's fix it by allowing humans to kill each other..... that'll solve the problem, eventually, of humans with guns.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> It seemed to lower the gun crime rate here...while the gun crime rate in Britain, where they banned and confiscated guns is going up....
> 
> We went from 200 million guns in private hands in the 1990s and 4.7 million people carrying guns for self defense in 1997...to close to 400-600 million guns in private hands and over 17.25  million people carrying guns for self defense in 2018...guess what happened...
> 
> 
> --* gun murder down 49%*
> 
> *--gun crime down 75%*
> 
> *--violent crime down 72%*
> 
> Gun Homicide Rate Down 49% Since 1993 Peak; Public Unaware
> 
> Compared with 1993, the peak of U.S. gun homicides, the firearm homicide rate was 49% lower in 2010, and there were fewer deaths, even though the nation’s population grew. The victimization rate for other violent crimes with a firearm—assaults, robberies and sex crimes—was 75% lower in 2011 than in 1993. Violent non-fatal crime victimization overall (with or without a firearm) also is down markedly (72%) over two decades.
> -----
> 
> *Britain....*
> 
> 
> Crime rise is biggest in a decade, ONS figures show
> 
> Ministers will also be concerned that the country is becoming increasingly violent in nature, with gun crime rising 23% to 6,375 offences,* largely driven by an increase in the use of handguns.*
> 
> *---*
> 
> Police urged to ‘follow the gun’ to cut smuggling amid rise in firearm crime
> 
> The findings, by the Birmingham-based National Ballistics Intelligence Network, come as concern grows over a 20% rise in gun crime in England and Wales.
> 
> ----
> 
> Figures released last month by the Office for National Statistics showed a 20% rise in firearms incidents in England and Wales – 6,694 offences during the year up to September 2017.
> ----
> 
> The arrest and jailing for 30 years in 2016 of Harry Shilling, caught trying to smuggle £100,000-worth of guns from France into the UK, underlined how susceptible the UK is to smuggling. Officers found 22 assault rifles and nine submachine guns, as well as 1,500 rounds of ammunition, after intercepting a boat at a marina in Kent.
> 
> Last week a Birmingham physiotherapist, Mohinder Surdhar, who supplied guns and ammunition to gangs, including weapons used in three murders, was jailed for 14 years.
> ==========
> U.K. Begins Another Gun Surrender Initiative Amid Increase in Gun Crime
> 
> The United Kingdom's National Ballistics Intelligence Service (NABIS) is conducting a new gun surrender program from Nov. 13 to Nov. 26 after gun crime in England and Wales increased by more than a quarter in the past year.
> The Office for National Statistics found a 27 percent increase in crimes involving firearms during its most recent review of crime data.
> 
> *Despite a near ban on the civilian ownership of handguns the review found crimes committed with handguns increased by 25 percent and accounted for the majority of gun crimes. The agency said the increases in 2016 were part of a multiyear trend.*
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Where is murder higher? The US or the UK?
> 
> Where is gun crime higher? The US or the UK?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Gun crime is going down in the U.S. it is going up in the U.K........
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You do understand statistics I assume?
> A small increase in numbers from a small base will be a large increase in percentage.
> E.g. if you have five murders in one year...then six murders the following year...what is the percentage increase?
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> idb said:
> 
> 
> 
> Clearly the only sensible answer is to have more guns freely available...that'll fix it.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yeah, because the first world country with the most guns is also the first world country with the highest murder rates.
> 
> Yeah, let's fix it by allowing humans to kill each other..... that'll solve the problem, eventually, of humans with guns.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> It seemed to lower the gun crime rate here...while the gun crime rate in Britain, where they banned and confiscated guns is going up....
> 
> We went from 200 million guns in private hands in the 1990s and 4.7 million people carrying guns for self defense in 1997...to close to 400-600 million guns in private hands and over 17.25  million people carrying guns for self defense in 2018...guess what happened...
> 
> 
> --* gun murder down 49%*
> 
> *--gun crime down 75%*
> 
> *--violent crime down 72%
> *
> 
> 
> Gun Homicide Rate Down 49% Since 1993 Peak; Public Unaware
> 
> Compared with 1993, the peak of U.S. gun homicides, the firearm homicide rate was 49% lower in 2010, and there were fewer deaths, even though the nation’s population grew. The victimization rate for other violent crimes with a firearm—assaults, robberies and sex crimes—was 75% lower in 2011 than in 1993. Violent non-fatal crime victimization overall (with or without a firearm) also is down markedly (72%) over two decades.
> -----
> 
> *Britain....*
> 
> 
> Crime rise is biggest in a decade, ONS figures show
> 
> Ministers will also be concerned that the country is becoming increasingly violent in nature, with gun crime rising 23% to 6,375 offences,* largely driven by an increase in the use of handguns.*
> 
> *---*
> 
> Police urged to ‘follow the gun’ to cut smuggling amid rise in firearm crime
> 
> The findings, by the Birmingham-based National Ballistics Intelligence Network, come as concern grows over a 20% rise in gun crime in England and Wales.
> 
> ----
> 
> Figures released last month by the Office for National Statistics showed a 20% rise in firearms incidents in England and Wales – 6,694 offences during the year up to September 2017.
> ----
> 
> The arrest and jailing for 30 years in 2016 of Harry Shilling, caught trying to smuggle £100,000-worth of guns from France into the UK, underlined how susceptible the UK is to smuggling. Officers found 22 assault rifles and nine submachine guns, as well as 1,500 rounds of ammunition, after intercepting a boat at a marina in Kent.
> 
> Last week a Birmingham physiotherapist, Mohinder Surdhar, who supplied guns and ammunition to gangs, including weapons used in three murders, was jailed for 14 years.
> ==========
> U.K. Begins Another Gun Surrender Initiative Amid Increase in Gun Crime
> 
> The United Kingdom's National Ballistics Intelligence Service (NABIS) is conducting a new gun surrender program from Nov. 13 to Nov. 26 after gun crime in England and Wales increased by more than a quarter in the past year.
> The Office for National Statistics found a 27 percent increase in crimes involving firearms during its most recent review of crime data.
> 
> *Despite a near ban on the civilian ownership of handguns the review found crimes committed with handguns increased by 25 percent and accounted for the majority of gun crimes. The agency said the increases in 2016 were part of a multiyear trend.*
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Where is murder higher? The US or the UK?
> 
> Where is gun crime higher? The US or the UK?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Gun crime is going down in the U.S. it is going up in the U.K........
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I count 8 firearm deaths in the UK in the year to March 2017.
> 
> Homicide in England and Wales - Office for National Statistics
Click to expand...


Yes...you focus on gun murder which has always, always been low in Britain even when they had access to guns.....it was always lower than here...you focus on that because you have to hide the fact that criminals in Britain are getting more guns...illegal guns, and they are using them for crime....currently, they are not using them for murder....but they are getting more guns and using them in increasing levels for crime against unarmed civilians....with a police force hamstrung by policies straight from our democrat party play book....cut manpower, cut the money, cripple them with P.C. policies....


----------



## 2aguy

frigidweirdo said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> idb said:
> 
> 
> 
> Clearly the only sensible answer is to have more guns freely available...that'll fix it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yep....
> 
> We went from 200 million guns in private hands in the 1990s and 4.7 million people carrying guns for self defense in 1997...to close to 400-600 million guns in private hands and over 17.25  million people carrying guns for self defense in 2018...guess what happened...
> 
> 
> --* gun murder down 49%*
> 
> *--gun crime down 75%*
> 
> *--violent crime down 72%*
> 
> Gun Homicide Rate Down 49% Since 1993 Peak; Public Unaware
> 
> Compared with 1993, the peak of U.S. gun homicides, the firearm homicide rate was 49% lower in 2010, and there were fewer deaths, even though the nation’s population grew. The victimization rate for other violent crimes with a firearm—assaults, robberies and sex crimes—was 75% lower in 2011 than in 1993. Violent non-fatal crime victimization overall (with or without a firearm) also is down markedly (72%) over two decades.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> This is hilarious.
> 
> It's taking a few facts and believing you can manipulate people with only a small portion and a massive fairy tale of an interpretation.
> 
> Gun ownership
> 
> Gun ownership in the U.S. 1972-2017 | Statistic
> 
> Crime statistics
> 
> United States Crime Rates 1960 - 2017
> 
> In 1972 there was 43% gun ownership.
> In 2017 there was 42% gun ownership.
> 
> It seems to fluctuate between 37% and 47%, though this might just be how they collect the data. Either way there doesn't seem to be a rise in people owning guns. Just an increase in POPULATION which means more people own guns, because there are more people. (Read, OP couldn't use statistics honestly if he tried)
> 
> Gun ownership was probably similar in the 1950s when crime rates were lower too.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That US murder rates went down, doesn't mean much when they've not been below 4 murders per 100,000 people in the last 100 something years, and when the UK hasn't been above 1.5 in the last 200 years.
> 
> And increase of crime happens at times, and it decreases at times.
> 
> To simply say "crime is rising" therefore it's bad, is to ignore so much stuff and to be totally dishonest.
> 
> The fact that crime is rising is because the UK has had a Conservative government in power for the last 8 years. They've cut police spending, they've cut spending on education, on things like that.
> 
> Dishonesty is the only thing you'll find in the OP's posts in general, and there's no exception here.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> You just admitted in your post that gun crime is not dependent on gun control......it is about time you admitted it.   Criminals use guns...they don't always use them for murder.....and Britain has a growing gun crime problem......
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yes, I admit that the number of guns does not lead to X amount of gun crime or gun murders.
> 
> This topic is not just "this leads to that every single time". There are lots and lots of factors in what leads to higher murder rates. But then dealing with lots and lots of factors with a guy who repeatedly misuses single facts and statistics is going to be futile, isn't it?
> 
> The only time when complexity is convenient for you is when your simplistic argument has been destroyed and you're clinging on to whatever you can find.
> 
> You can't even be honest enough to answer questions properly, but you continue to misrepresent every single time. Oh, and insult. Remember the "Moron" and then your reason why I was a "Moron" was you not responding to what I wrote and saying something completely disconnected with what I said?
Click to expand...



Yes...you are another one who hides the failure of gun control laws in Britain by focusing on gun murder which has never been a major problem in Britain, since their criminals didn't do it...even before they banned guns.   You have to hide the fact that gun crime, the illegal use of guns in the commission of violent crimes against unarmed citizens, is increasing...

And if the criminals have the guns in increasing numbers, what gun control law is stopping them from walking into a church, a school or a mall?  And which gun control law keeps them from pulling the trigger and aiming at the head or chest instead of the leg?

Please explain how that works.


----------



## idb

2aguy said:


> idb said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, because the first world country with the most guns is also the first world country with the highest murder rates.
> 
> Yeah, let's fix it by allowing humans to kill each other..... that'll solve the problem, eventually, of humans with guns.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It seemed to lower the gun crime rate here...while the gun crime rate in Britain, where they banned and confiscated guns is going up....
> 
> We went from 200 million guns in private hands in the 1990s and 4.7 million people carrying guns for self defense in 1997...to close to 400-600 million guns in private hands and over 17.25  million people carrying guns for self defense in 2018...guess what happened...
> 
> 
> --* gun murder down 49%*
> 
> *--gun crime down 75%*
> 
> *--violent crime down 72%*
> 
> Gun Homicide Rate Down 49% Since 1993 Peak; Public Unaware
> 
> Compared with 1993, the peak of U.S. gun homicides, the firearm homicide rate was 49% lower in 2010, and there were fewer deaths, even though the nation’s population grew. The victimization rate for other violent crimes with a firearm—assaults, robberies and sex crimes—was 75% lower in 2011 than in 1993. Violent non-fatal crime victimization overall (with or without a firearm) also is down markedly (72%) over two decades.
> -----
> 
> *Britain....*
> 
> 
> Crime rise is biggest in a decade, ONS figures show
> 
> Ministers will also be concerned that the country is becoming increasingly violent in nature, with gun crime rising 23% to 6,375 offences,* largely driven by an increase in the use of handguns.*
> 
> *---*
> 
> Police urged to ‘follow the gun’ to cut smuggling amid rise in firearm crime
> 
> The findings, by the Birmingham-based National Ballistics Intelligence Network, come as concern grows over a 20% rise in gun crime in England and Wales.
> 
> ----
> 
> Figures released last month by the Office for National Statistics showed a 20% rise in firearms incidents in England and Wales – 6,694 offences during the year up to September 2017.
> ----
> 
> The arrest and jailing for 30 years in 2016 of Harry Shilling, caught trying to smuggle £100,000-worth of guns from France into the UK, underlined how susceptible the UK is to smuggling. Officers found 22 assault rifles and nine submachine guns, as well as 1,500 rounds of ammunition, after intercepting a boat at a marina in Kent.
> 
> Last week a Birmingham physiotherapist, Mohinder Surdhar, who supplied guns and ammunition to gangs, including weapons used in three murders, was jailed for 14 years.
> ==========
> U.K. Begins Another Gun Surrender Initiative Amid Increase in Gun Crime
> 
> The United Kingdom's National Ballistics Intelligence Service (NABIS) is conducting a new gun surrender program from Nov. 13 to Nov. 26 after gun crime in England and Wales increased by more than a quarter in the past year.
> The Office for National Statistics found a 27 percent increase in crimes involving firearms during its most recent review of crime data.
> 
> *Despite a near ban on the civilian ownership of handguns the review found crimes committed with handguns increased by 25 percent and accounted for the majority of gun crimes. The agency said the increases in 2016 were part of a multiyear trend.*
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Where is murder higher? The US or the UK?
> 
> Where is gun crime higher? The US or the UK?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Gun crime is going down in the U.S. it is going up in the U.K........
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You do understand statistics I assume?
> A small increase in numbers from a small base will be a large increase in percentage.
> E.g. if you have five murders in one year...then six murders the following year...what is the percentage increase?
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, because the first world country with the most guns is also the first world country with the highest murder rates.
> 
> Yeah, let's fix it by allowing humans to kill each other..... that'll solve the problem, eventually, of humans with guns.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> It seemed to lower the gun crime rate here...while the gun crime rate in Britain, where they banned and confiscated guns is going up....
> 
> We went from 200 million guns in private hands in the 1990s and 4.7 million people carrying guns for self defense in 1997...to close to 400-600 million guns in private hands and over 17.25  million people carrying guns for self defense in 2018...guess what happened...
> 
> 
> --* gun murder down 49%*
> 
> *--gun crime down 75%*
> 
> *--violent crime down 72%
> *
> 
> 
> Gun Homicide Rate Down 49% Since 1993 Peak; Public Unaware
> 
> Compared with 1993, the peak of U.S. gun homicides, the firearm homicide rate was 49% lower in 2010, and there were fewer deaths, even though the nation’s population grew. The victimization rate for other violent crimes with a firearm—assaults, robberies and sex crimes—was 75% lower in 2011 than in 1993. Violent non-fatal crime victimization overall (with or without a firearm) also is down markedly (72%) over two decades.
> -----
> 
> *Britain....*
> 
> 
> Crime rise is biggest in a decade, ONS figures show
> 
> Ministers will also be concerned that the country is becoming increasingly violent in nature, with gun crime rising 23% to 6,375 offences,* largely driven by an increase in the use of handguns.*
> 
> *---*
> 
> Police urged to ‘follow the gun’ to cut smuggling amid rise in firearm crime
> 
> The findings, by the Birmingham-based National Ballistics Intelligence Network, come as concern grows over a 20% rise in gun crime in England and Wales.
> 
> ----
> 
> Figures released last month by the Office for National Statistics showed a 20% rise in firearms incidents in England and Wales – 6,694 offences during the year up to September 2017.
> ----
> 
> The arrest and jailing for 30 years in 2016 of Harry Shilling, caught trying to smuggle £100,000-worth of guns from France into the UK, underlined how susceptible the UK is to smuggling. Officers found 22 assault rifles and nine submachine guns, as well as 1,500 rounds of ammunition, after intercepting a boat at a marina in Kent.
> 
> Last week a Birmingham physiotherapist, Mohinder Surdhar, who supplied guns and ammunition to gangs, including weapons used in three murders, was jailed for 14 years.
> ==========
> U.K. Begins Another Gun Surrender Initiative Amid Increase in Gun Crime
> 
> The United Kingdom's National Ballistics Intelligence Service (NABIS) is conducting a new gun surrender program from Nov. 13 to Nov. 26 after gun crime in England and Wales increased by more than a quarter in the past year.
> The Office for National Statistics found a 27 percent increase in crimes involving firearms during its most recent review of crime data.
> 
> *Despite a near ban on the civilian ownership of handguns the review found crimes committed with handguns increased by 25 percent and accounted for the majority of gun crimes. The agency said the increases in 2016 were part of a multiyear trend.*
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Where is murder higher? The US or the UK?
> 
> Where is gun crime higher? The US or the UK?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Gun crime is going down in the U.S. it is going up in the U.K........
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I count 8 firearm deaths in the UK in the year to March 2017.
> 
> Homicide in England and Wales - Office for National Statistics
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yes...you focus on gun murder which has always, always been low in Britain even when they had access to guns.....it was always lower than here...you focus on that because you have to hide the fact that criminals in Britain are getting more guns...illegal guns, and they are using them for crime....currently, they are not using them for murder....but they are getting more guns and using them in increasing levels for crime against unarmed civilians....with a police force hamstrung by policies straight from our democrat party play book....cut manpower, cut the money, cripple them with P.C. policies....
Click to expand...

Lest we forget...your OP title is "Gun free Britain? Murders going to hit 10 year high... "


----------



## idb

2aguy said:


> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> idb said:
> 
> 
> 
> Clearly the only sensible answer is to have more guns freely available...that'll fix it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yep....
> 
> We went from 200 million guns in private hands in the 1990s and 4.7 million people carrying guns for self defense in 1997...to close to 400-600 million guns in private hands and over 17.25  million people carrying guns for self defense in 2018...guess what happened...
> 
> 
> --* gun murder down 49%*
> 
> *--gun crime down 75%*
> 
> *--violent crime down 72%*
> 
> Gun Homicide Rate Down 49% Since 1993 Peak; Public Unaware
> 
> Compared with 1993, the peak of U.S. gun homicides, the firearm homicide rate was 49% lower in 2010, and there were fewer deaths, even though the nation’s population grew. The victimization rate for other violent crimes with a firearm—assaults, robberies and sex crimes—was 75% lower in 2011 than in 1993. Violent non-fatal crime victimization overall (with or without a firearm) also is down markedly (72%) over two decades.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> This is hilarious.
> 
> It's taking a few facts and believing you can manipulate people with only a small portion and a massive fairy tale of an interpretation.
> 
> Gun ownership
> 
> Gun ownership in the U.S. 1972-2017 | Statistic
> 
> Crime statistics
> 
> United States Crime Rates 1960 - 2017
> 
> In 1972 there was 43% gun ownership.
> In 2017 there was 42% gun ownership.
> 
> It seems to fluctuate between 37% and 47%, though this might just be how they collect the data. Either way there doesn't seem to be a rise in people owning guns. Just an increase in POPULATION which means more people own guns, because there are more people. (Read, OP couldn't use statistics honestly if he tried)
> 
> Gun ownership was probably similar in the 1950s when crime rates were lower too.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That US murder rates went down, doesn't mean much when they've not been below 4 murders per 100,000 people in the last 100 something years, and when the UK hasn't been above 1.5 in the last 200 years.
> 
> And increase of crime happens at times, and it decreases at times.
> 
> To simply say "crime is rising" therefore it's bad, is to ignore so much stuff and to be totally dishonest.
> 
> The fact that crime is rising is because the UK has had a Conservative government in power for the last 8 years. They've cut police spending, they've cut spending on education, on things like that.
> 
> Dishonesty is the only thing you'll find in the OP's posts in general, and there's no exception here.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> You just admitted in your post that gun crime is not dependent on gun control......it is about time you admitted it.   Criminals use guns...they don't always use them for murder.....and Britain has a growing gun crime problem......
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yes, I admit that the number of guns does not lead to X amount of gun crime or gun murders.
> 
> This topic is not just "this leads to that every single time". There are lots and lots of factors in what leads to higher murder rates. But then dealing with lots and lots of factors with a guy who repeatedly misuses single facts and statistics is going to be futile, isn't it?
> 
> The only time when complexity is convenient for you is when your simplistic argument has been destroyed and you're clinging on to whatever you can find.
> 
> You can't even be honest enough to answer questions properly, but you continue to misrepresent every single time. Oh, and insult. Remember the "Moron" and then your reason why I was a "Moron" was you not responding to what I wrote and saying something completely disconnected with what I said?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Yes...you are another one who hides the failure of gun control laws in Britain by focusing on gun murder which has never been a major problem in Britain, since their criminals didn't do it...even before they banned guns.   You have to hide the fact that gun crime, the illegal use of guns in the commission of violent crimes against unarmed citizens, is increasing...
> 
> And if the criminals have the guns in increasing numbers, what gun control law is stopping them from walking into a church, a school or a mall?  And which gun control law keeps them from pulling the trigger and aiming at the head or chest instead of the leg?
> 
> Please explain how that works.
Click to expand...

OP title "Gun free Britain? Murders going to hit 10 year high... "


----------



## frigidweirdo

2aguy said:


> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> idb said:
> 
> 
> 
> Clearly the only sensible answer is to have more guns freely available...that'll fix it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yep....
> 
> We went from 200 million guns in private hands in the 1990s and 4.7 million people carrying guns for self defense in 1997...to close to 400-600 million guns in private hands and over 17.25  million people carrying guns for self defense in 2018...guess what happened...
> 
> 
> --* gun murder down 49%*
> 
> *--gun crime down 75%*
> 
> *--violent crime down 72%*
> 
> Gun Homicide Rate Down 49% Since 1993 Peak; Public Unaware
> 
> Compared with 1993, the peak of U.S. gun homicides, the firearm homicide rate was 49% lower in 2010, and there were fewer deaths, even though the nation’s population grew. The victimization rate for other violent crimes with a firearm—assaults, robberies and sex crimes—was 75% lower in 2011 than in 1993. Violent non-fatal crime victimization overall (with or without a firearm) also is down markedly (72%) over two decades.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> This is hilarious.
> 
> It's taking a few facts and believing you can manipulate people with only a small portion and a massive fairy tale of an interpretation.
> 
> Gun ownership
> 
> Gun ownership in the U.S. 1972-2017 | Statistic
> 
> Crime statistics
> 
> United States Crime Rates 1960 - 2017
> 
> In 1972 there was 43% gun ownership.
> In 2017 there was 42% gun ownership.
> 
> It seems to fluctuate between 37% and 47%, though this might just be how they collect the data. Either way there doesn't seem to be a rise in people owning guns. Just an increase in POPULATION which means more people own guns, because there are more people. (Read, OP couldn't use statistics honestly if he tried)
> 
> Gun ownership was probably similar in the 1950s when crime rates were lower too.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That US murder rates went down, doesn't mean much when they've not been below 4 murders per 100,000 people in the last 100 something years, and when the UK hasn't been above 1.5 in the last 200 years.
> 
> And increase of crime happens at times, and it decreases at times.
> 
> To simply say "crime is rising" therefore it's bad, is to ignore so much stuff and to be totally dishonest.
> 
> The fact that crime is rising is because the UK has had a Conservative government in power for the last 8 years. They've cut police spending, they've cut spending on education, on things like that.
> 
> Dishonesty is the only thing you'll find in the OP's posts in general, and there's no exception here.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> You just admitted in your post that gun crime is not dependent on gun control......it is about time you admitted it.   Criminals use guns...they don't always use them for murder.....and Britain has a growing gun crime problem......
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yes, I admit that the number of guns does not lead to X amount of gun crime or gun murders.
> 
> This topic is not just "this leads to that every single time". There are lots and lots of factors in what leads to higher murder rates. But then dealing with lots and lots of factors with a guy who repeatedly misuses single facts and statistics is going to be futile, isn't it?
> 
> The only time when complexity is convenient for you is when your simplistic argument has been destroyed and you're clinging on to whatever you can find.
> 
> You can't even be honest enough to answer questions properly, but you continue to misrepresent every single time. Oh, and insult. Remember the "Moron" and then your reason why I was a "Moron" was you not responding to what I wrote and saying something completely disconnected with what I said?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Yes...you are another one who hides the failure of gun control laws in Britain by focusing on gun murder which has never been a major problem in Britain, since their criminals didn't do it...even before they banned guns.   You have to hide the fact that gun crime, the illegal use of guns in the commission of violent crimes against unarmed citizens, is increasing...
> 
> And if the criminals have the guns in increasing numbers, what gun control law is stopping them from walking into a church, a school or a mall?  And which gun control law keeps them from pulling the trigger and aiming at the head or chest instead of the leg?
> 
> Please explain how that works.
Click to expand...


Easy availability of guns means that criminals value their weapons less, which means they're more likely to use them. 

Whereas in the UK a criminal might be able to get a gun, or might not, it might cost them more and it might be more of a struggle to get another one. 

Also that gun warfare isn't prevalent means guns are often used as a means of scaring people, rather than actually having to use them. 

But then again, I showed you the murder rate in the US and the UK compared in a chart, and somehow you believe this is me "focusing on gun murder".

Another one of your inabilities to know what people are talking about in your desire to "win" of get what you want regardless of the truth. 

UK gun control laws are not a failure. They're also not 100% effective, but what laws are? 

But the UK gun murder rate is massively low, it's murder rate isn't high. It's a success.


----------



## frigidweirdo

2aguy said:


> idb said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, because the first world country with the most guns is also the first world country with the highest murder rates.
> 
> Yeah, let's fix it by allowing humans to kill each other..... that'll solve the problem, eventually, of humans with guns.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It seemed to lower the gun crime rate here...while the gun crime rate in Britain, where they banned and confiscated guns is going up....
> 
> We went from 200 million guns in private hands in the 1990s and 4.7 million people carrying guns for self defense in 1997...to close to 400-600 million guns in private hands and over 17.25  million people carrying guns for self defense in 2018...guess what happened...
> 
> 
> --* gun murder down 49%*
> 
> *--gun crime down 75%*
> 
> *--violent crime down 72%*
> 
> Gun Homicide Rate Down 49% Since 1993 Peak; Public Unaware
> 
> Compared with 1993, the peak of U.S. gun homicides, the firearm homicide rate was 49% lower in 2010, and there were fewer deaths, even though the nation’s population grew. The victimization rate for other violent crimes with a firearm—assaults, robberies and sex crimes—was 75% lower in 2011 than in 1993. Violent non-fatal crime victimization overall (with or without a firearm) also is down markedly (72%) over two decades.
> -----
> 
> *Britain....*
> 
> 
> Crime rise is biggest in a decade, ONS figures show
> 
> Ministers will also be concerned that the country is becoming increasingly violent in nature, with gun crime rising 23% to 6,375 offences,* largely driven by an increase in the use of handguns.*
> 
> *---*
> 
> Police urged to ‘follow the gun’ to cut smuggling amid rise in firearm crime
> 
> The findings, by the Birmingham-based National Ballistics Intelligence Network, come as concern grows over a 20% rise in gun crime in England and Wales.
> 
> ----
> 
> Figures released last month by the Office for National Statistics showed a 20% rise in firearms incidents in England and Wales – 6,694 offences during the year up to September 2017.
> ----
> 
> The arrest and jailing for 30 years in 2016 of Harry Shilling, caught trying to smuggle £100,000-worth of guns from France into the UK, underlined how susceptible the UK is to smuggling. Officers found 22 assault rifles and nine submachine guns, as well as 1,500 rounds of ammunition, after intercepting a boat at a marina in Kent.
> 
> Last week a Birmingham physiotherapist, Mohinder Surdhar, who supplied guns and ammunition to gangs, including weapons used in three murders, was jailed for 14 years.
> ==========
> U.K. Begins Another Gun Surrender Initiative Amid Increase in Gun Crime
> 
> The United Kingdom's National Ballistics Intelligence Service (NABIS) is conducting a new gun surrender program from Nov. 13 to Nov. 26 after gun crime in England and Wales increased by more than a quarter in the past year.
> The Office for National Statistics found a 27 percent increase in crimes involving firearms during its most recent review of crime data.
> 
> *Despite a near ban on the civilian ownership of handguns the review found crimes committed with handguns increased by 25 percent and accounted for the majority of gun crimes. The agency said the increases in 2016 were part of a multiyear trend.*
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Where is murder higher? The US or the UK?
> 
> Where is gun crime higher? The US or the UK?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Gun crime is going down in the U.S. it is going up in the U.K........
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You do understand statistics I assume?
> A small increase in numbers from a small base will be a large increase in percentage.
> E.g. if you have five murders in one year...then six murders the following year...what is the percentage increase?
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, because the first world country with the most guns is also the first world country with the highest murder rates.
> 
> Yeah, let's fix it by allowing humans to kill each other..... that'll solve the problem, eventually, of humans with guns.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> It seemed to lower the gun crime rate here...while the gun crime rate in Britain, where they banned and confiscated guns is going up....
> 
> We went from 200 million guns in private hands in the 1990s and 4.7 million people carrying guns for self defense in 1997...to close to 400-600 million guns in private hands and over 17.25  million people carrying guns for self defense in 2018...guess what happened...
> 
> 
> --* gun murder down 49%*
> 
> *--gun crime down 75%*
> 
> *--violent crime down 72%
> *
> 
> 
> Gun Homicide Rate Down 49% Since 1993 Peak; Public Unaware
> 
> Compared with 1993, the peak of U.S. gun homicides, the firearm homicide rate was 49% lower in 2010, and there were fewer deaths, even though the nation’s population grew. The victimization rate for other violent crimes with a firearm—assaults, robberies and sex crimes—was 75% lower in 2011 than in 1993. Violent non-fatal crime victimization overall (with or without a firearm) also is down markedly (72%) over two decades.
> -----
> 
> *Britain....*
> 
> 
> Crime rise is biggest in a decade, ONS figures show
> 
> Ministers will also be concerned that the country is becoming increasingly violent in nature, with gun crime rising 23% to 6,375 offences,* largely driven by an increase in the use of handguns.*
> 
> *---*
> 
> Police urged to ‘follow the gun’ to cut smuggling amid rise in firearm crime
> 
> The findings, by the Birmingham-based National Ballistics Intelligence Network, come as concern grows over a 20% rise in gun crime in England and Wales.
> 
> ----
> 
> Figures released last month by the Office for National Statistics showed a 20% rise in firearms incidents in England and Wales – 6,694 offences during the year up to September 2017.
> ----
> 
> The arrest and jailing for 30 years in 2016 of Harry Shilling, caught trying to smuggle £100,000-worth of guns from France into the UK, underlined how susceptible the UK is to smuggling. Officers found 22 assault rifles and nine submachine guns, as well as 1,500 rounds of ammunition, after intercepting a boat at a marina in Kent.
> 
> Last week a Birmingham physiotherapist, Mohinder Surdhar, who supplied guns and ammunition to gangs, including weapons used in three murders, was jailed for 14 years.
> ==========
> U.K. Begins Another Gun Surrender Initiative Amid Increase in Gun Crime
> 
> The United Kingdom's National Ballistics Intelligence Service (NABIS) is conducting a new gun surrender program from Nov. 13 to Nov. 26 after gun crime in England and Wales increased by more than a quarter in the past year.
> The Office for National Statistics found a 27 percent increase in crimes involving firearms during its most recent review of crime data.
> 
> *Despite a near ban on the civilian ownership of handguns the review found crimes committed with handguns increased by 25 percent and accounted for the majority of gun crimes. The agency said the increases in 2016 were part of a multiyear trend.*
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Where is murder higher? The US or the UK?
> 
> Where is gun crime higher? The US or the UK?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Gun crime is going down in the U.S. it is going up in the U.K........
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I count 8 firearm deaths in the UK in the year to March 2017.
> 
> Homicide in England and Wales - Office for National Statistics
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yes...you focus on gun murder which has always, always been low in Britain even when they had access to guns.....it was always lower than here...you focus on that because you have to hide the fact that criminals in Britain are getting more guns...illegal guns, and they are using them for crime....currently, they are not using them for murder....but they are getting more guns and using them in increasing levels for crime against unarmed civilians....with a police force hamstrung by policies straight from our democrat party play book....cut manpower, cut the money, cripple them with P.C. policies....
Click to expand...


"even when they had access to guns", like they don't have access to guns.

We've done this before so many fucking times. THEY HAVE GUNS.

What's DIFFERENT is that access is LIMITED and RESTRICTED whereas in the US it isn't. 

The issue here is that there are more guns than before, the Yardies brought in guns for the first real time. Gun murders WENT UP. 

Homicide - Office for National Statistics

You can look on this interactive map and see. April 2002 to March 2003 was the highest murder rate. It got up to 1.7 murders per 100,000 people. Massively lower than the US's rate. This is for England and Wales rather than the UK. 

By April 2014-March 2015 this has dropped to 0.9, nearly half.

That's with guns being in the country. So why did the murder rate go down? 

Better policing, the left wing Labour Party increased spending on the police force.

You know what's changed since then? The right wing Tory Party reducing spending on policing. 

The murder rate is going up. But by 2017 it was 10.7. 

Homicide in England and Wales - Office for National Statistics

So, the murder rate fluctuates, and it often fluctuates based on police spending and the like. But the UK is more likely to deal with the problems from every aspect, social, economic etc, whereas in the US politicians ignore all the problems, and people like you do too.


----------



## Skull Pilot

frigidweirdo said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> idb said:
> 
> 
> 
> Clearly the only sensible answer is to have more guns freely available...that'll fix it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, because the first world country with the most guns is also the first world country with the highest murder rates.
> 
> Yeah, let's fix it by allowing humans to kill each other..... that'll solve the problem, eventually, of humans with guns.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> It seemed to lower the gun crime rate here...while the gun crime rate in Britain, where they banned and confiscated guns is going up....
> 
> We went from 200 million guns in private hands in the 1990s and 4.7 million people carrying guns for self defense in 1997...to close to 400-600 million guns in private hands and over 17.25  million people carrying guns for self defense in 2018...guess what happened...
> 
> 
> --* gun murder down 49%*
> 
> *--gun crime down 75%*
> 
> *--violent crime down 72%*
> 
> Gun Homicide Rate Down 49% Since 1993 Peak; Public Unaware
> 
> Compared with 1993, the peak of U.S. gun homicides, the firearm homicide rate was 49% lower in 2010, and there were fewer deaths, even though the nation’s population grew. The victimization rate for other violent crimes with a firearm—assaults, robberies and sex crimes—was 75% lower in 2011 than in 1993. Violent non-fatal crime victimization overall (with or without a firearm) also is down markedly (72%) over two decades.
> -----
> 
> *Britain....*
> 
> 
> Crime rise is biggest in a decade, ONS figures show
> 
> Ministers will also be concerned that the country is becoming increasingly violent in nature, with gun crime rising 23% to 6,375 offences,* largely driven by an increase in the use of handguns.*
> 
> *---*
> 
> Police urged to ‘follow the gun’ to cut smuggling amid rise in firearm crime
> 
> The findings, by the Birmingham-based National Ballistics Intelligence Network, come as concern grows over a 20% rise in gun crime in England and Wales.
> 
> ----
> 
> Figures released last month by the Office for National Statistics showed a 20% rise in firearms incidents in England and Wales – 6,694 offences during the year up to September 2017.
> ----
> 
> The arrest and jailing for 30 years in 2016 of Harry Shilling, caught trying to smuggle £100,000-worth of guns from France into the UK, underlined how susceptible the UK is to smuggling. Officers found 22 assault rifles and nine submachine guns, as well as 1,500 rounds of ammunition, after intercepting a boat at a marina in Kent.
> 
> Last week a Birmingham physiotherapist, Mohinder Surdhar, who supplied guns and ammunition to gangs, including weapons used in three murders, was jailed for 14 years.
> ==========
> U.K. Begins Another Gun Surrender Initiative Amid Increase in Gun Crime
> 
> The United Kingdom's National Ballistics Intelligence Service (NABIS) is conducting a new gun surrender program from Nov. 13 to Nov. 26 after gun crime in England and Wales increased by more than a quarter in the past year.
> The Office for National Statistics found a 27 percent increase in crimes involving firearms during its most recent review of crime data.
> 
> *Despite a near ban on the civilian ownership of handguns the review found crimes committed with handguns increased by 25 percent and accounted for the majority of gun crimes. The agency said the increases in 2016 were part of a multiyear trend.*
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Where is murder higher? The US or the UK?
> 
> Where is gun crime higher? The US or the UK?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Murder has always been higher in the U.S. even before they banned guns in the U.K. showing that their gun control laws had nothing to do with their gun murder rates....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Right, the US has always had guns and always had higher murder rates.
> 
> The UK has always had less guns and always had less murders.
> 
> What does this say to you?
> 
> You're trying to make the argument that an increase in crime is bad and a reduction is good. You're being misleading at best, and conniving when people see what you're actually doing.
> 
> Someone else has made this argument better than me, so I'll let you reply to them.
Click to expand...

And yet you can't tell me why CA has a murder rate that is more than 4 times higher than NH despite all its strict gun laws can you?


----------



## idb

frigidweirdo said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> idb said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> It seemed to lower the gun crime rate here...while the gun crime rate in Britain, where they banned and confiscated guns is going up....
> 
> We went from 200 million guns in private hands in the 1990s and 4.7 million people carrying guns for self defense in 1997...to close to 400-600 million guns in private hands and over 17.25  million people carrying guns for self defense in 2018...guess what happened...
> 
> 
> --* gun murder down 49%*
> 
> *--gun crime down 75%*
> 
> *--violent crime down 72%*
> 
> Gun Homicide Rate Down 49% Since 1993 Peak; Public Unaware
> 
> Compared with 1993, the peak of U.S. gun homicides, the firearm homicide rate was 49% lower in 2010, and there were fewer deaths, even though the nation’s population grew. The victimization rate for other violent crimes with a firearm—assaults, robberies and sex crimes—was 75% lower in 2011 than in 1993. Violent non-fatal crime victimization overall (with or without a firearm) also is down markedly (72%) over two decades.
> -----
> 
> *Britain....*
> 
> 
> Crime rise is biggest in a decade, ONS figures show
> 
> Ministers will also be concerned that the country is becoming increasingly violent in nature, with gun crime rising 23% to 6,375 offences,* largely driven by an increase in the use of handguns.*
> 
> *---*
> 
> Police urged to ‘follow the gun’ to cut smuggling amid rise in firearm crime
> 
> The findings, by the Birmingham-based National Ballistics Intelligence Network, come as concern grows over a 20% rise in gun crime in England and Wales.
> 
> ----
> 
> Figures released last month by the Office for National Statistics showed a 20% rise in firearms incidents in England and Wales – 6,694 offences during the year up to September 2017.
> ----
> 
> The arrest and jailing for 30 years in 2016 of Harry Shilling, caught trying to smuggle £100,000-worth of guns from France into the UK, underlined how susceptible the UK is to smuggling. Officers found 22 assault rifles and nine submachine guns, as well as 1,500 rounds of ammunition, after intercepting a boat at a marina in Kent.
> 
> Last week a Birmingham physiotherapist, Mohinder Surdhar, who supplied guns and ammunition to gangs, including weapons used in three murders, was jailed for 14 years.
> ==========
> U.K. Begins Another Gun Surrender Initiative Amid Increase in Gun Crime
> 
> The United Kingdom's National Ballistics Intelligence Service (NABIS) is conducting a new gun surrender program from Nov. 13 to Nov. 26 after gun crime in England and Wales increased by more than a quarter in the past year.
> The Office for National Statistics found a 27 percent increase in crimes involving firearms during its most recent review of crime data.
> 
> *Despite a near ban on the civilian ownership of handguns the review found crimes committed with handguns increased by 25 percent and accounted for the majority of gun crimes. The agency said the increases in 2016 were part of a multiyear trend.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Where is murder higher? The US or the UK?
> 
> Where is gun crime higher? The US or the UK?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Gun crime is going down in the U.S. it is going up in the U.K........
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You do understand statistics I assume?
> A small increase in numbers from a small base will be a large increase in percentage.
> E.g. if you have five murders in one year...then six murders the following year...what is the percentage increase?
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> It seemed to lower the gun crime rate here...while the gun crime rate in Britain, where they banned and confiscated guns is going up....
> 
> We went from 200 million guns in private hands in the 1990s and 4.7 million people carrying guns for self defense in 1997...to close to 400-600 million guns in private hands and over 17.25  million people carrying guns for self defense in 2018...guess what happened...
> 
> 
> --* gun murder down 49%*
> 
> *--gun crime down 75%*
> 
> *--violent crime down 72%
> *
> 
> 
> Gun Homicide Rate Down 49% Since 1993 Peak; Public Unaware
> 
> Compared with 1993, the peak of U.S. gun homicides, the firearm homicide rate was 49% lower in 2010, and there were fewer deaths, even though the nation’s population grew. The victimization rate for other violent crimes with a firearm—assaults, robberies and sex crimes—was 75% lower in 2011 than in 1993. Violent non-fatal crime victimization overall (with or without a firearm) also is down markedly (72%) over two decades.
> -----
> 
> *Britain....*
> 
> 
> Crime rise is biggest in a decade, ONS figures show
> 
> Ministers will also be concerned that the country is becoming increasingly violent in nature, with gun crime rising 23% to 6,375 offences,* largely driven by an increase in the use of handguns.*
> 
> *---*
> 
> Police urged to ‘follow the gun’ to cut smuggling amid rise in firearm crime
> 
> The findings, by the Birmingham-based National Ballistics Intelligence Network, come as concern grows over a 20% rise in gun crime in England and Wales.
> 
> ----
> 
> Figures released last month by the Office for National Statistics showed a 20% rise in firearms incidents in England and Wales – 6,694 offences during the year up to September 2017.
> ----
> 
> The arrest and jailing for 30 years in 2016 of Harry Shilling, caught trying to smuggle £100,000-worth of guns from France into the UK, underlined how susceptible the UK is to smuggling. Officers found 22 assault rifles and nine submachine guns, as well as 1,500 rounds of ammunition, after intercepting a boat at a marina in Kent.
> 
> Last week a Birmingham physiotherapist, Mohinder Surdhar, who supplied guns and ammunition to gangs, including weapons used in three murders, was jailed for 14 years.
> ==========
> U.K. Begins Another Gun Surrender Initiative Amid Increase in Gun Crime
> 
> The United Kingdom's National Ballistics Intelligence Service (NABIS) is conducting a new gun surrender program from Nov. 13 to Nov. 26 after gun crime in England and Wales increased by more than a quarter in the past year.
> The Office for National Statistics found a 27 percent increase in crimes involving firearms during its most recent review of crime data.
> 
> *Despite a near ban on the civilian ownership of handguns the review found crimes committed with handguns increased by 25 percent and accounted for the majority of gun crimes. The agency said the increases in 2016 were part of a multiyear trend.*
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Where is murder higher? The US or the UK?
> 
> Where is gun crime higher? The US or the UK?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Gun crime is going down in the U.S. it is going up in the U.K........
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I count 8 firearm deaths in the UK in the year to March 2017.
> 
> Homicide in England and Wales - Office for National Statistics
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yes...you focus on gun murder which has always, always been low in Britain even when they had access to guns.....it was always lower than here...you focus on that because you have to hide the fact that criminals in Britain are getting more guns...illegal guns, and they are using them for crime....currently, they are not using them for murder....but they are getting more guns and using them in increasing levels for crime against unarmed civilians....with a police force hamstrung by policies straight from our democrat party play book....cut manpower, cut the money, cripple them with P.C. policies....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> "even when they had access to guns", like they don't have access to guns.
> 
> We've done this before so many fucking times. THEY HAVE GUNS.
> 
> What's DIFFERENT is that access is LIMITED and RESTRICTED whereas in the US it isn't.
> 
> The issue here is that there are more guns than before, the Yardies brought in guns for the first real time. Gun murders WENT UP.
> 
> Homicide - Office for National Statistics
> 
> You can look on this interactive map and see. April 2002 to March 2003 was the highest murder rate. It got up to 1.7 murders per 100,000 people. Massively lower than the US's rate. This is for England and Wales rather than the UK.
> 
> By April 2014-March 2015 this has dropped to 0.9, nearly half.
> 
> That's with guns being in the country. So why did the murder rate go down?
> 
> Better policing, the left wing Labour Party increased spending on the police force.
> 
> You know what's changed since then? The right wing Tory Party reducing spending on policing.
> 
> The murder rate is going up. But by 2017 it was 10.7.
> 
> Homicide in England and Wales - Office for National Statistics
> 
> So, the murder rate fluctuates, and it often fluctuates based on police spending and the like. But the UK is more likely to deal with the problems from every aspect, social, economic etc, whereas in the US politicians ignore all the problems, and people like you do too.
Click to expand...

The regular point that 2aguy makes is that gun laws don't prevent gun crimes 100% so should be scrapped.
The answer just writes itself.
Why have drug laws, abortion laws, immigration laws...?


----------



## frigidweirdo

idb said:


> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> idb said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> 
> Where is murder higher? The US or the UK?
> 
> Where is gun crime higher? The US or the UK?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Gun crime is going down in the U.S. it is going up in the U.K........
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You do understand statistics I assume?
> A small increase in numbers from a small base will be a large increase in percentage.
> E.g. if you have five murders in one year...then six murders the following year...what is the percentage increase?
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> 
> Where is murder higher? The US or the UK?
> 
> Where is gun crime higher? The US or the UK?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Gun crime is going down in the U.S. it is going up in the U.K........
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I count 8 firearm deaths in the UK in the year to March 2017.
> 
> Homicide in England and Wales - Office for National Statistics
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yes...you focus on gun murder which has always, always been low in Britain even when they had access to guns.....it was always lower than here...you focus on that because you have to hide the fact that criminals in Britain are getting more guns...illegal guns, and they are using them for crime....currently, they are not using them for murder....but they are getting more guns and using them in increasing levels for crime against unarmed civilians....with a police force hamstrung by policies straight from our democrat party play book....cut manpower, cut the money, cripple them with P.C. policies....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> "even when they had access to guns", like they don't have access to guns.
> 
> We've done this before so many fucking times. THEY HAVE GUNS.
> 
> What's DIFFERENT is that access is LIMITED and RESTRICTED whereas in the US it isn't.
> 
> The issue here is that there are more guns than before, the Yardies brought in guns for the first real time. Gun murders WENT UP.
> 
> Homicide - Office for National Statistics
> 
> You can look on this interactive map and see. April 2002 to March 2003 was the highest murder rate. It got up to 1.7 murders per 100,000 people. Massively lower than the US's rate. This is for England and Wales rather than the UK.
> 
> By April 2014-March 2015 this has dropped to 0.9, nearly half.
> 
> That's with guns being in the country. So why did the murder rate go down?
> 
> Better policing, the left wing Labour Party increased spending on the police force.
> 
> You know what's changed since then? The right wing Tory Party reducing spending on policing.
> 
> The murder rate is going up. But by 2017 it was 10.7.
> 
> Homicide in England and Wales - Office for National Statistics
> 
> So, the murder rate fluctuates, and it often fluctuates based on police spending and the like. But the UK is more likely to deal with the problems from every aspect, social, economic etc, whereas in the US politicians ignore all the problems, and people like you do too.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The regular point that 2aguy makes is that gun laws don't prevent gun crimes 100% so should be scrapped.
> The answer just writes itself.
> Why have drug laws, abortion laws, immigration laws...?
Click to expand...


The point that 2Aguy makes is that he's an absolute fraud and "fake news" reporter.

No, gun laws don't stop things 100%, who said they do?

The UK's murder rate is 4 time or more lower than the US's. A rise in crime is inevitable as is a drop in crime at other times. That's what happens in life.

The fraud is trying to claim that a rise is worse than a drop in crime and murders, REGARDLESS of what the rate is in the first place. This is just ridiculous.


----------



## frigidweirdo

Skull Pilot said:


> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, because the first world country with the most guns is also the first world country with the highest murder rates.
> 
> Yeah, let's fix it by allowing humans to kill each other..... that'll solve the problem, eventually, of humans with guns.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It seemed to lower the gun crime rate here...while the gun crime rate in Britain, where they banned and confiscated guns is going up....
> 
> We went from 200 million guns in private hands in the 1990s and 4.7 million people carrying guns for self defense in 1997...to close to 400-600 million guns in private hands and over 17.25  million people carrying guns for self defense in 2018...guess what happened...
> 
> 
> --* gun murder down 49%*
> 
> *--gun crime down 75%*
> 
> *--violent crime down 72%*
> 
> Gun Homicide Rate Down 49% Since 1993 Peak; Public Unaware
> 
> Compared with 1993, the peak of U.S. gun homicides, the firearm homicide rate was 49% lower in 2010, and there were fewer deaths, even though the nation’s population grew. The victimization rate for other violent crimes with a firearm—assaults, robberies and sex crimes—was 75% lower in 2011 than in 1993. Violent non-fatal crime victimization overall (with or without a firearm) also is down markedly (72%) over two decades.
> -----
> 
> *Britain....*
> 
> 
> Crime rise is biggest in a decade, ONS figures show
> 
> Ministers will also be concerned that the country is becoming increasingly violent in nature, with gun crime rising 23% to 6,375 offences,* largely driven by an increase in the use of handguns.*
> 
> *---*
> 
> Police urged to ‘follow the gun’ to cut smuggling amid rise in firearm crime
> 
> The findings, by the Birmingham-based National Ballistics Intelligence Network, come as concern grows over a 20% rise in gun crime in England and Wales.
> 
> ----
> 
> Figures released last month by the Office for National Statistics showed a 20% rise in firearms incidents in England and Wales – 6,694 offences during the year up to September 2017.
> ----
> 
> The arrest and jailing for 30 years in 2016 of Harry Shilling, caught trying to smuggle £100,000-worth of guns from France into the UK, underlined how susceptible the UK is to smuggling. Officers found 22 assault rifles and nine submachine guns, as well as 1,500 rounds of ammunition, after intercepting a boat at a marina in Kent.
> 
> Last week a Birmingham physiotherapist, Mohinder Surdhar, who supplied guns and ammunition to gangs, including weapons used in three murders, was jailed for 14 years.
> ==========
> U.K. Begins Another Gun Surrender Initiative Amid Increase in Gun Crime
> 
> The United Kingdom's National Ballistics Intelligence Service (NABIS) is conducting a new gun surrender program from Nov. 13 to Nov. 26 after gun crime in England and Wales increased by more than a quarter in the past year.
> The Office for National Statistics found a 27 percent increase in crimes involving firearms during its most recent review of crime data.
> 
> *Despite a near ban on the civilian ownership of handguns the review found crimes committed with handguns increased by 25 percent and accounted for the majority of gun crimes. The agency said the increases in 2016 were part of a multiyear trend.*
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Where is murder higher? The US or the UK?
> 
> Where is gun crime higher? The US or the UK?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Murder has always been higher in the U.S. even before they banned guns in the U.K. showing that their gun control laws had nothing to do with their gun murder rates....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Right, the US has always had guns and always had higher murder rates.
> 
> The UK has always had less guns and always had less murders.
> 
> What does this say to you?
> 
> You're trying to make the argument that an increase in crime is bad and a reduction is good. You're being misleading at best, and conniving when people see what you're actually doing.
> 
> Someone else has made this argument better than me, so I'll let you reply to them.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> And yet you can't tell me why CA has a murder rate that is more than 4 times higher than NH despite all its strict gun laws can you?
Click to expand...


Sure I can.


----------



## Skull Pilot

frigidweirdo said:


> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> It seemed to lower the gun crime rate here...while the gun crime rate in Britain, where they banned and confiscated guns is going up....
> 
> We went from 200 million guns in private hands in the 1990s and 4.7 million people carrying guns for self defense in 1997...to close to 400-600 million guns in private hands and over 17.25  million people carrying guns for self defense in 2018...guess what happened...
> 
> 
> --* gun murder down 49%*
> 
> *--gun crime down 75%*
> 
> *--violent crime down 72%*
> 
> Gun Homicide Rate Down 49% Since 1993 Peak; Public Unaware
> 
> Compared with 1993, the peak of U.S. gun homicides, the firearm homicide rate was 49% lower in 2010, and there were fewer deaths, even though the nation’s population grew. The victimization rate for other violent crimes with a firearm—assaults, robberies and sex crimes—was 75% lower in 2011 than in 1993. Violent non-fatal crime victimization overall (with or without a firearm) also is down markedly (72%) over two decades.
> -----
> 
> *Britain....*
> 
> 
> Crime rise is biggest in a decade, ONS figures show
> 
> Ministers will also be concerned that the country is becoming increasingly violent in nature, with gun crime rising 23% to 6,375 offences,* largely driven by an increase in the use of handguns.*
> 
> *---*
> 
> Police urged to ‘follow the gun’ to cut smuggling amid rise in firearm crime
> 
> The findings, by the Birmingham-based National Ballistics Intelligence Network, come as concern grows over a 20% rise in gun crime in England and Wales.
> 
> ----
> 
> Figures released last month by the Office for National Statistics showed a 20% rise in firearms incidents in England and Wales – 6,694 offences during the year up to September 2017.
> ----
> 
> The arrest and jailing for 30 years in 2016 of Harry Shilling, caught trying to smuggle £100,000-worth of guns from France into the UK, underlined how susceptible the UK is to smuggling. Officers found 22 assault rifles and nine submachine guns, as well as 1,500 rounds of ammunition, after intercepting a boat at a marina in Kent.
> 
> Last week a Birmingham physiotherapist, Mohinder Surdhar, who supplied guns and ammunition to gangs, including weapons used in three murders, was jailed for 14 years.
> ==========
> U.K. Begins Another Gun Surrender Initiative Amid Increase in Gun Crime
> 
> The United Kingdom's National Ballistics Intelligence Service (NABIS) is conducting a new gun surrender program from Nov. 13 to Nov. 26 after gun crime in England and Wales increased by more than a quarter in the past year.
> The Office for National Statistics found a 27 percent increase in crimes involving firearms during its most recent review of crime data.
> 
> *Despite a near ban on the civilian ownership of handguns the review found crimes committed with handguns increased by 25 percent and accounted for the majority of gun crimes. The agency said the increases in 2016 were part of a multiyear trend.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Where is murder higher? The US or the UK?
> 
> Where is gun crime higher? The US or the UK?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Murder has always been higher in the U.S. even before they banned guns in the U.K. showing that their gun control laws had nothing to do with their gun murder rates....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Right, the US has always had guns and always had higher murder rates.
> 
> The UK has always had less guns and always had less murders.
> 
> What does this say to you?
> 
> You're trying to make the argument that an increase in crime is bad and a reduction is good. You're being misleading at best, and conniving when people see what you're actually doing.
> 
> Someone else has made this argument better than me, so I'll let you reply to them.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> And yet you can't tell me why CA has a murder rate that is more than 4 times higher than NH despite all its strict gun laws can you?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Sure I can.
Click to expand...


go ahead


----------



## 2aguy

frigidweirdo said:


> idb said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> idb said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Gun crime is going down in the U.S. it is going up in the U.K........
> 
> 
> 
> You do understand statistics I assume?
> A small increase in numbers from a small base will be a large increase in percentage.
> E.g. if you have five murders in one year...then six murders the following year...what is the percentage increase?
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Gun crime is going down in the U.S. it is going up in the U.K........
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I count 8 firearm deaths in the UK in the year to March 2017.
> 
> Homicide in England and Wales - Office for National Statistics
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yes...you focus on gun murder which has always, always been low in Britain even when they had access to guns.....it was always lower than here...you focus on that because you have to hide the fact that criminals in Britain are getting more guns...illegal guns, and they are using them for crime....currently, they are not using them for murder....but they are getting more guns and using them in increasing levels for crime against unarmed civilians....with a police force hamstrung by policies straight from our democrat party play book....cut manpower, cut the money, cripple them with P.C. policies....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> "even when they had access to guns", like they don't have access to guns.
> 
> We've done this before so many fucking times. THEY HAVE GUNS.
> 
> What's DIFFERENT is that access is LIMITED and RESTRICTED whereas in the US it isn't.
> 
> The issue here is that there are more guns than before, the Yardies brought in guns for the first real time. Gun murders WENT UP.
> 
> Homicide - Office for National Statistics
> 
> You can look on this interactive map and see. April 2002 to March 2003 was the highest murder rate. It got up to 1.7 murders per 100,000 people. Massively lower than the US's rate. This is for England and Wales rather than the UK.
> 
> By April 2014-March 2015 this has dropped to 0.9, nearly half.
> 
> That's with guns being in the country. So why did the murder rate go down?
> 
> Better policing, the left wing Labour Party increased spending on the police force.
> 
> You know what's changed since then? The right wing Tory Party reducing spending on policing.
> 
> The murder rate is going up. But by 2017 it was 10.7.
> 
> Homicide in England and Wales - Office for National Statistics
> 
> So, the murder rate fluctuates, and it often fluctuates based on police spending and the like. But the UK is more likely to deal with the problems from every aspect, social, economic etc, whereas in the US politicians ignore all the problems, and people like you do too.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The regular point that 2aguy makes is that gun laws don't prevent gun crimes 100% so should be scrapped.
> The answer just writes itself.
> Why have drug laws, abortion laws, immigration laws...?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The point that 2Aguy makes is that he's an absolute fraud and "fake news" reporter.
> 
> No, gun laws don't stop things 100%, who said they do?
> 
> The UK's murder rate is 4 time or more lower than the US's. A rise in crime is inevitable as is a drop in crime at other times. That's what happens in life.
> 
> The fraud is trying to claim that a rise is worse than a drop in crime and murders, REGARDLESS of what the rate is in the first place. This is just ridiculous.
Click to expand...



And again, you go to a statistic that is not relevant to the gun control laws in Britain working, since gun crime is going up..which means there are more guns in the hands of criminals in Britain...... that means that if they wanted to murder people with those guns, they could.

You keep being told over and over again that Britain did not have a high gun murder rate for it's entire history.....that means before they banned guns.   Then, they banned guns and there was a spike in gun murder, and now it has gone down...what didn't go down?   Gun crime...that is up...not down.  You need to distract attention away from that fact.


----------



## 2aguy

idb said:


> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> idb said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> 
> Where is murder higher? The US or the UK?
> 
> Where is gun crime higher? The US or the UK?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Gun crime is going down in the U.S. it is going up in the U.K........
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You do understand statistics I assume?
> A small increase in numbers from a small base will be a large increase in percentage.
> E.g. if you have five murders in one year...then six murders the following year...what is the percentage increase?
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> 
> Where is murder higher? The US or the UK?
> 
> Where is gun crime higher? The US or the UK?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Gun crime is going down in the U.S. it is going up in the U.K........
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I count 8 firearm deaths in the UK in the year to March 2017.
> 
> Homicide in England and Wales - Office for National Statistics
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yes...you focus on gun murder which has always, always been low in Britain even when they had access to guns.....it was always lower than here...you focus on that because you have to hide the fact that criminals in Britain are getting more guns...illegal guns, and they are using them for crime....currently, they are not using them for murder....but they are getting more guns and using them in increasing levels for crime against unarmed civilians....with a police force hamstrung by policies straight from our democrat party play book....cut manpower, cut the money, cripple them with P.C. policies....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> "even when they had access to guns", like they don't have access to guns.
> 
> We've done this before so many fucking times. THEY HAVE GUNS.
> 
> What's DIFFERENT is that access is LIMITED and RESTRICTED whereas in the US it isn't.
> 
> The issue here is that there are more guns than before, the Yardies brought in guns for the first real time. Gun murders WENT UP.
> 
> Homicide - Office for National Statistics
> 
> You can look on this interactive map and see. April 2002 to March 2003 was the highest murder rate. It got up to 1.7 murders per 100,000 people. Massively lower than the US's rate. This is for England and Wales rather than the UK.
> 
> By April 2014-March 2015 this has dropped to 0.9, nearly half.
> 
> That's with guns being in the country. So why did the murder rate go down?
> 
> Better policing, the left wing Labour Party increased spending on the police force.
> 
> You know what's changed since then? The right wing Tory Party reducing spending on policing.
> 
> The murder rate is going up. But by 2017 it was 10.7.
> 
> Homicide in England and Wales - Office for National Statistics
> 
> So, the murder rate fluctuates, and it often fluctuates based on police spending and the like. But the UK is more likely to deal with the problems from every aspect, social, economic etc, whereas in the US politicians ignore all the problems, and people like you do too.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The regular point that 2aguy makes is that gun laws don't prevent gun crimes 100% so should be scrapped.
> The answer just writes itself.
> Why have drug laws, abortion laws, immigration laws...?
Click to expand...



No, that isn't the point at all.....the actual point is that taking guns away from law abiding people does not lower the gun crime rate...and that is exactly what Britain shows, that is what America shows...as more Americans own and carry guns, the gun crime rate has gone down, not up, showing that law abiding people who have guns do not suddenly start to commit crimes simply because they have guns.


----------



## 2aguy

frigidweirdo said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yep....
> 
> We went from 200 million guns in private hands in the 1990s and 4.7 million people carrying guns for self defense in 1997...to close to 400-600 million guns in private hands and over 17.25  million people carrying guns for self defense in 2018...guess what happened...
> 
> 
> --* gun murder down 49%*
> 
> *--gun crime down 75%*
> 
> *--violent crime down 72%*
> 
> Gun Homicide Rate Down 49% Since 1993 Peak; Public Unaware
> 
> Compared with 1993, the peak of U.S. gun homicides, the firearm homicide rate was 49% lower in 2010, and there were fewer deaths, even though the nation’s population grew. The victimization rate for other violent crimes with a firearm—assaults, robberies and sex crimes—was 75% lower in 2011 than in 1993. Violent non-fatal crime victimization overall (with or without a firearm) also is down markedly (72%) over two decades.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is hilarious.
> 
> It's taking a few facts and believing you can manipulate people with only a small portion and a massive fairy tale of an interpretation.
> 
> Gun ownership
> 
> Gun ownership in the U.S. 1972-2017 | Statistic
> 
> Crime statistics
> 
> United States Crime Rates 1960 - 2017
> 
> In 1972 there was 43% gun ownership.
> In 2017 there was 42% gun ownership.
> 
> It seems to fluctuate between 37% and 47%, though this might just be how they collect the data. Either way there doesn't seem to be a rise in people owning guns. Just an increase in POPULATION which means more people own guns, because there are more people. (Read, OP couldn't use statistics honestly if he tried)
> 
> Gun ownership was probably similar in the 1950s when crime rates were lower too.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That US murder rates went down, doesn't mean much when they've not been below 4 murders per 100,000 people in the last 100 something years, and when the UK hasn't been above 1.5 in the last 200 years.
> 
> And increase of crime happens at times, and it decreases at times.
> 
> To simply say "crime is rising" therefore it's bad, is to ignore so much stuff and to be totally dishonest.
> 
> The fact that crime is rising is because the UK has had a Conservative government in power for the last 8 years. They've cut police spending, they've cut spending on education, on things like that.
> 
> Dishonesty is the only thing you'll find in the OP's posts in general, and there's no exception here.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> You just admitted in your post that gun crime is not dependent on gun control......it is about time you admitted it.   Criminals use guns...they don't always use them for murder.....and Britain has a growing gun crime problem......
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yes, I admit that the number of guns does not lead to X amount of gun crime or gun murders.
> 
> This topic is not just "this leads to that every single time". There are lots and lots of factors in what leads to higher murder rates. But then dealing with lots and lots of factors with a guy who repeatedly misuses single facts and statistics is going to be futile, isn't it?
> 
> The only time when complexity is convenient for you is when your simplistic argument has been destroyed and you're clinging on to whatever you can find.
> 
> You can't even be honest enough to answer questions properly, but you continue to misrepresent every single time. Oh, and insult. Remember the "Moron" and then your reason why I was a "Moron" was you not responding to what I wrote and saying something completely disconnected with what I said?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Yes...you are another one who hides the failure of gun control laws in Britain by focusing on gun murder which has never been a major problem in Britain, since their criminals didn't do it...even before they banned guns.   You have to hide the fact that gun crime, the illegal use of guns in the commission of violent crimes against unarmed citizens, is increasing...
> 
> And if the criminals have the guns in increasing numbers, what gun control law is stopping them from walking into a church, a school or a mall?  And which gun control law keeps them from pulling the trigger and aiming at the head or chest instead of the leg?
> 
> Please explain how that works.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Easy availability of guns means that criminals value their weapons less, which means they're more likely to use them.
> 
> Whereas in the UK a criminal might be able to get a gun, or might not, it might cost them more and it might be more of a struggle to get another one.
> 
> Also that gun warfare isn't prevalent means guns are often used as a means of scaring people, rather than actually having to use them.
> 
> But then again, I showed you the murder rate in the US and the UK compared in a chart, and somehow you believe this is me "focusing on gun murder".
> 
> Another one of your inabilities to know what people are talking about in your desire to "win" of get what you want regardless of the truth.
> 
> UK gun control laws are not a failure. They're also not 100% effective, but what laws are?
> 
> But the UK gun murder rate is massively low, it's murder rate isn't high. It's a success.
Click to expand...



You think that criminals are not getting more guns now?    Your post has no bearing on the fact that Britain's criminals are getting more guns... you only focus on gun murder since that hasn't changed in Britain, except for the massive spike immediately after they banned guns.


----------



## frigidweirdo

2aguy said:


> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> idb said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> idb said:
> 
> 
> 
> You do understand statistics I assume?
> A small increase in numbers from a small base will be a large increase in percentage.
> E.g. if you have five murders in one year...then six murders the following year...what is the percentage increase?
> I count 8 firearm deaths in the UK in the year to March 2017.
> 
> Homicide in England and Wales - Office for National Statistics
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes...you focus on gun murder which has always, always been low in Britain even when they had access to guns.....it was always lower than here...you focus on that because you have to hide the fact that criminals in Britain are getting more guns...illegal guns, and they are using them for crime....currently, they are not using them for murder....but they are getting more guns and using them in increasing levels for crime against unarmed civilians....with a police force hamstrung by policies straight from our democrat party play book....cut manpower, cut the money, cripple them with P.C. policies....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> "even when they had access to guns", like they don't have access to guns.
> 
> We've done this before so many fucking times. THEY HAVE GUNS.
> 
> What's DIFFERENT is that access is LIMITED and RESTRICTED whereas in the US it isn't.
> 
> The issue here is that there are more guns than before, the Yardies brought in guns for the first real time. Gun murders WENT UP.
> 
> Homicide - Office for National Statistics
> 
> You can look on this interactive map and see. April 2002 to March 2003 was the highest murder rate. It got up to 1.7 murders per 100,000 people. Massively lower than the US's rate. This is for England and Wales rather than the UK.
> 
> By April 2014-March 2015 this has dropped to 0.9, nearly half.
> 
> That's with guns being in the country. So why did the murder rate go down?
> 
> Better policing, the left wing Labour Party increased spending on the police force.
> 
> You know what's changed since then? The right wing Tory Party reducing spending on policing.
> 
> The murder rate is going up. But by 2017 it was 10.7.
> 
> Homicide in England and Wales - Office for National Statistics
> 
> So, the murder rate fluctuates, and it often fluctuates based on police spending and the like. But the UK is more likely to deal with the problems from every aspect, social, economic etc, whereas in the US politicians ignore all the problems, and people like you do too.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The regular point that 2aguy makes is that gun laws don't prevent gun crimes 100% so should be scrapped.
> The answer just writes itself.
> Why have drug laws, abortion laws, immigration laws...?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The point that 2Aguy makes is that he's an absolute fraud and "fake news" reporter.
> 
> No, gun laws don't stop things 100%, who said they do?
> 
> The UK's murder rate is 4 time or more lower than the US's. A rise in crime is inevitable as is a drop in crime at other times. That's what happens in life.
> 
> The fraud is trying to claim that a rise is worse than a drop in crime and murders, REGARDLESS of what the rate is in the first place. This is just ridiculous.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> And again, you go to a statistic that is not relevant to the gun control laws in Britain working, since gun crime is going up..which means there are more guns in the hands of criminals in Britain...... that means that if they wanted to murder people with those guns, they could.
> 
> You keep being told over and over again that Britain did not have a high gun murder rate for it's entire history.....that means before they banned guns.   Then, they banned guns and there was a spike in gun murder, and now it has gone down...what didn't go down?   Gun crime...that is up...not down.  You need to distract attention away from that fact.
Click to expand...


You're telling me about stuff that's not relevant? Wow, the king of posting totally irrelevant crap. 

No, more gun crime does not equate to more guns in the hands of criminals. That's a ridiculous assertion.

Yes, if they wanted to murder people, they could. I mean if you had a knife or poison or a car or hands you could also murder people.

Unfortunately for you and your lunacy, there are no international statistics on the numbers of people who WANT TO MURDER PEOPLE BUT DON'T. 

But thank you for that irrelevant crap anyway.

So, you're trying to make the argument that gun violence was low before gun control laws were enacted therefore.... therefore... who the fuck knows that comes after therefore. The UK had low numbers of guns before gun control. In 1997 gun control was enacted to stop random mass gun murders, of which there haven't been many while the US has one every month right now.

So the gun control law works. However you have decided that somehow you either have gun control and it works 100% or you don't have it. You can't have an in between because... because... who the fuck knows what comes after because.

As for your claim, backed up by not one single statistic, that gun crime didn't go down. Bullshit.






See here, 2002 gun murders went up, as did murder in general, and then it wen down again. Dropping by more than 50%. 






And here's firearms offenses which reached a high in 2006 and then went down too. 

Right, so you've just made up "facts" again, for the umpteenth time. Why do you pull this shit exactly?


----------



## frigidweirdo

2aguy said:


> idb said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> idb said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Gun crime is going down in the U.S. it is going up in the U.K........
> 
> 
> 
> You do understand statistics I assume?
> A small increase in numbers from a small base will be a large increase in percentage.
> E.g. if you have five murders in one year...then six murders the following year...what is the percentage increase?
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Gun crime is going down in the U.S. it is going up in the U.K........
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I count 8 firearm deaths in the UK in the year to March 2017.
> 
> Homicide in England and Wales - Office for National Statistics
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yes...you focus on gun murder which has always, always been low in Britain even when they had access to guns.....it was always lower than here...you focus on that because you have to hide the fact that criminals in Britain are getting more guns...illegal guns, and they are using them for crime....currently, they are not using them for murder....but they are getting more guns and using them in increasing levels for crime against unarmed civilians....with a police force hamstrung by policies straight from our democrat party play book....cut manpower, cut the money, cripple them with P.C. policies....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> "even when they had access to guns", like they don't have access to guns.
> 
> We've done this before so many fucking times. THEY HAVE GUNS.
> 
> What's DIFFERENT is that access is LIMITED and RESTRICTED whereas in the US it isn't.
> 
> The issue here is that there are more guns than before, the Yardies brought in guns for the first real time. Gun murders WENT UP.
> 
> Homicide - Office for National Statistics
> 
> You can look on this interactive map and see. April 2002 to March 2003 was the highest murder rate. It got up to 1.7 murders per 100,000 people. Massively lower than the US's rate. This is for England and Wales rather than the UK.
> 
> By April 2014-March 2015 this has dropped to 0.9, nearly half.
> 
> That's with guns being in the country. So why did the murder rate go down?
> 
> Better policing, the left wing Labour Party increased spending on the police force.
> 
> You know what's changed since then? The right wing Tory Party reducing spending on policing.
> 
> The murder rate is going up. But by 2017 it was 10.7.
> 
> Homicide in England and Wales - Office for National Statistics
> 
> So, the murder rate fluctuates, and it often fluctuates based on police spending and the like. But the UK is more likely to deal with the problems from every aspect, social, economic etc, whereas in the US politicians ignore all the problems, and people like you do too.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The regular point that 2aguy makes is that gun laws don't prevent gun crimes 100% so should be scrapped.
> The answer just writes itself.
> Why have drug laws, abortion laws, immigration laws...?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> No, that isn't the point at all.....the actual point is that taking guns away from law abiding people does not lower the gun crime rate...and that is exactly what Britain shows, that is what America shows...as more Americans own and carry guns, the gun crime rate has gone down, not up, showing that law abiding people who have guns do not suddenly start to commit crimes simply because they have guns.
Click to expand...


Yes, it actually does. Taking away the easy availability of guns from criminals, which a big part of this is taking guns from "law abiding people" (whatever the fuck that means, most people break the law every day) actually keeps gun crime lower. 

You've done nothing, other than faking statistics, to show that this is the case. Your argument is like pretending that water is beer. Weak as fuck.


----------



## frigidweirdo

2aguy said:


> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> 
> This is hilarious.
> 
> It's taking a few facts and believing you can manipulate people with only a small portion and a massive fairy tale of an interpretation.
> 
> Gun ownership
> 
> Gun ownership in the U.S. 1972-2017 | Statistic
> 
> Crime statistics
> 
> United States Crime Rates 1960 - 2017
> 
> In 1972 there was 43% gun ownership.
> In 2017 there was 42% gun ownership.
> 
> It seems to fluctuate between 37% and 47%, though this might just be how they collect the data. Either way there doesn't seem to be a rise in people owning guns. Just an increase in POPULATION which means more people own guns, because there are more people. (Read, OP couldn't use statistics honestly if he tried)
> 
> Gun ownership was probably similar in the 1950s when crime rates were lower too.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That US murder rates went down, doesn't mean much when they've not been below 4 murders per 100,000 people in the last 100 something years, and when the UK hasn't been above 1.5 in the last 200 years.
> 
> And increase of crime happens at times, and it decreases at times.
> 
> To simply say "crime is rising" therefore it's bad, is to ignore so much stuff and to be totally dishonest.
> 
> The fact that crime is rising is because the UK has had a Conservative government in power for the last 8 years. They've cut police spending, they've cut spending on education, on things like that.
> 
> Dishonesty is the only thing you'll find in the OP's posts in general, and there's no exception here.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You just admitted in your post that gun crime is not dependent on gun control......it is about time you admitted it.   Criminals use guns...they don't always use them for murder.....and Britain has a growing gun crime problem......
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yes, I admit that the number of guns does not lead to X amount of gun crime or gun murders.
> 
> This topic is not just "this leads to that every single time". There are lots and lots of factors in what leads to higher murder rates. But then dealing with lots and lots of factors with a guy who repeatedly misuses single facts and statistics is going to be futile, isn't it?
> 
> The only time when complexity is convenient for you is when your simplistic argument has been destroyed and you're clinging on to whatever you can find.
> 
> You can't even be honest enough to answer questions properly, but you continue to misrepresent every single time. Oh, and insult. Remember the "Moron" and then your reason why I was a "Moron" was you not responding to what I wrote and saying something completely disconnected with what I said?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Yes...you are another one who hides the failure of gun control laws in Britain by focusing on gun murder which has never been a major problem in Britain, since their criminals didn't do it...even before they banned guns.   You have to hide the fact that gun crime, the illegal use of guns in the commission of violent crimes against unarmed citizens, is increasing...
> 
> And if the criminals have the guns in increasing numbers, what gun control law is stopping them from walking into a church, a school or a mall?  And which gun control law keeps them from pulling the trigger and aiming at the head or chest instead of the leg?
> 
> Please explain how that works.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Easy availability of guns means that criminals value their weapons less, which means they're more likely to use them.
> 
> Whereas in the UK a criminal might be able to get a gun, or might not, it might cost them more and it might be more of a struggle to get another one.
> 
> Also that gun warfare isn't prevalent means guns are often used as a means of scaring people, rather than actually having to use them.
> 
> But then again, I showed you the murder rate in the US and the UK compared in a chart, and somehow you believe this is me "focusing on gun murder".
> 
> Another one of your inabilities to know what people are talking about in your desire to "win" of get what you want regardless of the truth.
> 
> UK gun control laws are not a failure. They're also not 100% effective, but what laws are?
> 
> But the UK gun murder rate is massively low, it's murder rate isn't high. It's a success.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> You think that criminals are not getting more guns now?    Your post has no bearing on the fact that Britain's criminals are getting more guns... you only focus on gun murder since that hasn't changed in Britain, except for the massive spike immediately after they banned guns.
Click to expand...


You want to show that criminals are getting more guns now. Then prove it. Until then I call bullshit on your fake crap.


----------



## Tommy Tainant

frigidweirdo said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> idb said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yes...you focus on gun murder which has always, always been low in Britain even when they had access to guns.....it was always lower than here...you focus on that because you have to hide the fact that criminals in Britain are getting more guns...illegal guns, and they are using them for crime....currently, they are not using them for murder....but they are getting more guns and using them in increasing levels for crime against unarmed civilians....with a police force hamstrung by policies straight from our democrat party play book....cut manpower, cut the money, cripple them with P.C. policies....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "even when they had access to guns", like they don't have access to guns.
> 
> We've done this before so many fucking times. THEY HAVE GUNS.
> 
> What's DIFFERENT is that access is LIMITED and RESTRICTED whereas in the US it isn't.
> 
> The issue here is that there are more guns than before, the Yardies brought in guns for the first real time. Gun murders WENT UP.
> 
> Homicide - Office for National Statistics
> 
> You can look on this interactive map and see. April 2002 to March 2003 was the highest murder rate. It got up to 1.7 murders per 100,000 people. Massively lower than the US's rate. This is for England and Wales rather than the UK.
> 
> By April 2014-March 2015 this has dropped to 0.9, nearly half.
> 
> That's with guns being in the country. So why did the murder rate go down?
> 
> Better policing, the left wing Labour Party increased spending on the police force.
> 
> You know what's changed since then? The right wing Tory Party reducing spending on policing.
> 
> The murder rate is going up. But by 2017 it was 10.7.
> 
> Homicide in England and Wales - Office for National Statistics
> 
> So, the murder rate fluctuates, and it often fluctuates based on police spending and the like. But the UK is more likely to deal with the problems from every aspect, social, economic etc, whereas in the US politicians ignore all the problems, and people like you do too.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The regular point that 2aguy makes is that gun laws don't prevent gun crimes 100% so should be scrapped.
> The answer just writes itself.
> Why have drug laws, abortion laws, immigration laws...?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The point that 2Aguy makes is that he's an absolute fraud and "fake news" reporter.
> 
> No, gun laws don't stop things 100%, who said they do?
> 
> The UK's murder rate is 4 time or more lower than the US's. A rise in crime is inevitable as is a drop in crime at other times. That's what happens in life.
> 
> The fraud is trying to claim that a rise is worse than a drop in crime and murders, REGARDLESS of what the rate is in the first place. This is just ridiculous.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> And again, you go to a statistic that is not relevant to the gun control laws in Britain working, since gun crime is going up..which means there are more guns in the hands of criminals in Britain...... that means that if they wanted to murder people with those guns, they could.
> 
> You keep being told over and over again that Britain did not have a high gun murder rate for it's entire history.....that means before they banned guns.   Then, they banned guns and there was a spike in gun murder, and now it has gone down...what didn't go down?   Gun crime...that is up...not down.  You need to distract attention away from that fact.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You're telling me about stuff that's not relevant? Wow, the king of posting totally irrelevant crap.
> 
> No, more gun crime does not equate to more guns in the hands of criminals. That's a ridiculous assertion.
> 
> Yes, if they wanted to murder people, they could. I mean if you had a knife or poison or a car or hands you could also murder people.
> 
> Unfortunately for you and your lunacy, there are no international statistics on the numbers of people who WANT TO MURDER PEOPLE BUT DON'T.
> 
> But thank you for that irrelevant crap anyway.
> 
> So, you're trying to make the argument that gun violence was low before gun control laws were enacted therefore.... therefore... who the fuck knows that comes after therefore. The UK had low numbers of guns before gun control. In 1997 gun control was enacted to stop random mass gun murders, of which there haven't been many while the US has one every month right now.
> 
> So the gun control law works. However you have decided that somehow you either have gun control and it works 100% or you don't have it. You can't have an in between because... because... who the fuck knows what comes after because.
> 
> As for your claim, backed up by not one single statistic, that gun crime didn't go down. Bullshit.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> See here, 2002 gun murders went up, as did murder in general, and then it wen down again. Dropping by more than 50%.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And here's firearms offenses which reached a high in 2006 and then went down too.
> 
> Right, so you've just made up "facts" again, for the umpteenth time. Why do you pull this shit exactly?
Click to expand...


*So the gun control law works. However you have decided that somehow you either have gun control and it works 100% or you don't have it. You can't have an in between because... because... who the fuck knows what comes after because.
*
This is pretty much the cornerstone of his bullshit. Refuting claims that have never been made. A rational person reading it would conclude that we need less guns in the UK not more.

With low gun ownership we have a murder rate that is a fraction of the US with its gun culture. It is impossible to make a coherent argument against that.


----------



## frigidweirdo

Tommy Tainant said:


> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> idb said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> 
> "even when they had access to guns", like they don't have access to guns.
> 
> We've done this before so many fucking times. THEY HAVE GUNS.
> 
> What's DIFFERENT is that access is LIMITED and RESTRICTED whereas in the US it isn't.
> 
> The issue here is that there are more guns than before, the Yardies brought in guns for the first real time. Gun murders WENT UP.
> 
> Homicide - Office for National Statistics
> 
> You can look on this interactive map and see. April 2002 to March 2003 was the highest murder rate. It got up to 1.7 murders per 100,000 people. Massively lower than the US's rate. This is for England and Wales rather than the UK.
> 
> By April 2014-March 2015 this has dropped to 0.9, nearly half.
> 
> That's with guns being in the country. So why did the murder rate go down?
> 
> Better policing, the left wing Labour Party increased spending on the police force.
> 
> You know what's changed since then? The right wing Tory Party reducing spending on policing.
> 
> The murder rate is going up. But by 2017 it was 10.7.
> 
> Homicide in England and Wales - Office for National Statistics
> 
> So, the murder rate fluctuates, and it often fluctuates based on police spending and the like. But the UK is more likely to deal with the problems from every aspect, social, economic etc, whereas in the US politicians ignore all the problems, and people like you do too.
> 
> 
> 
> The regular point that 2aguy makes is that gun laws don't prevent gun crimes 100% so should be scrapped.
> The answer just writes itself.
> Why have drug laws, abortion laws, immigration laws...?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The point that 2Aguy makes is that he's an absolute fraud and "fake news" reporter.
> 
> No, gun laws don't stop things 100%, who said they do?
> 
> The UK's murder rate is 4 time or more lower than the US's. A rise in crime is inevitable as is a drop in crime at other times. That's what happens in life.
> 
> The fraud is trying to claim that a rise is worse than a drop in crime and murders, REGARDLESS of what the rate is in the first place. This is just ridiculous.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> And again, you go to a statistic that is not relevant to the gun control laws in Britain working, since gun crime is going up..which means there are more guns in the hands of criminals in Britain...... that means that if they wanted to murder people with those guns, they could.
> 
> You keep being told over and over again that Britain did not have a high gun murder rate for it's entire history.....that means before they banned guns.   Then, they banned guns and there was a spike in gun murder, and now it has gone down...what didn't go down?   Gun crime...that is up...not down.  You need to distract attention away from that fact.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You're telling me about stuff that's not relevant? Wow, the king of posting totally irrelevant crap.
> 
> No, more gun crime does not equate to more guns in the hands of criminals. That's a ridiculous assertion.
> 
> Yes, if they wanted to murder people, they could. I mean if you had a knife or poison or a car or hands you could also murder people.
> 
> Unfortunately for you and your lunacy, there are no international statistics on the numbers of people who WANT TO MURDER PEOPLE BUT DON'T.
> 
> But thank you for that irrelevant crap anyway.
> 
> So, you're trying to make the argument that gun violence was low before gun control laws were enacted therefore.... therefore... who the fuck knows that comes after therefore. The UK had low numbers of guns before gun control. In 1997 gun control was enacted to stop random mass gun murders, of which there haven't been many while the US has one every month right now.
> 
> So the gun control law works. However you have decided that somehow you either have gun control and it works 100% or you don't have it. You can't have an in between because... because... who the fuck knows what comes after because.
> 
> As for your claim, backed up by not one single statistic, that gun crime didn't go down. Bullshit.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> See here, 2002 gun murders went up, as did murder in general, and then it wen down again. Dropping by more than 50%.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And here's firearms offenses which reached a high in 2006 and then went down too.
> 
> Right, so you've just made up "facts" again, for the umpteenth time. Why do you pull this shit exactly?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> *So the gun control law works. However you have decided that somehow you either have gun control and it works 100% or you don't have it. You can't have an in between because... because... who the fuck knows what comes after because.
> *
> This is pretty much the cornerstone of his bullshit. Refuting claims that have never been made. A rational person reading it would conclude that we need less guns in the UK not more.
> 
> With low gun ownership we have a murder rate that is a fraction of the US with its gun culture. It is impossible to make a coherent argument against that.
Click to expand...


Oh yes, but 2Aguy has even admitted in the past that he basically posts shit in the hope that some tosser will actually agree with him. Reality and facts don't matter. It's getting what he wants that's important and he will say anything.


----------



## 2aguy

Tommy Tainant said:


> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> idb said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> 
> "even when they had access to guns", like they don't have access to guns.
> 
> We've done this before so many fucking times. THEY HAVE GUNS.
> 
> What's DIFFERENT is that access is LIMITED and RESTRICTED whereas in the US it isn't.
> 
> The issue here is that there are more guns than before, the Yardies brought in guns for the first real time. Gun murders WENT UP.
> 
> Homicide - Office for National Statistics
> 
> You can look on this interactive map and see. April 2002 to March 2003 was the highest murder rate. It got up to 1.7 murders per 100,000 people. Massively lower than the US's rate. This is for England and Wales rather than the UK.
> 
> By April 2014-March 2015 this has dropped to 0.9, nearly half.
> 
> That's with guns being in the country. So why did the murder rate go down?
> 
> Better policing, the left wing Labour Party increased spending on the police force.
> 
> You know what's changed since then? The right wing Tory Party reducing spending on policing.
> 
> The murder rate is going up. But by 2017 it was 10.7.
> 
> Homicide in England and Wales - Office for National Statistics
> 
> So, the murder rate fluctuates, and it often fluctuates based on police spending and the like. But the UK is more likely to deal with the problems from every aspect, social, economic etc, whereas in the US politicians ignore all the problems, and people like you do too.
> 
> 
> 
> The regular point that 2aguy makes is that gun laws don't prevent gun crimes 100% so should be scrapped.
> The answer just writes itself.
> Why have drug laws, abortion laws, immigration laws...?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The point that 2Aguy makes is that he's an absolute fraud and "fake news" reporter.
> 
> No, gun laws don't stop things 100%, who said they do?
> 
> The UK's murder rate is 4 time or more lower than the US's. A rise in crime is inevitable as is a drop in crime at other times. That's what happens in life.
> 
> The fraud is trying to claim that a rise is worse than a drop in crime and murders, REGARDLESS of what the rate is in the first place. This is just ridiculous.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> And again, you go to a statistic that is not relevant to the gun control laws in Britain working, since gun crime is going up..which means there are more guns in the hands of criminals in Britain...... that means that if they wanted to murder people with those guns, they could.
> 
> You keep being told over and over again that Britain did not have a high gun murder rate for it's entire history.....that means before they banned guns.   Then, they banned guns and there was a spike in gun murder, and now it has gone down...what didn't go down?   Gun crime...that is up...not down.  You need to distract attention away from that fact.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You're telling me about stuff that's not relevant? Wow, the king of posting totally irrelevant crap.
> 
> No, more gun crime does not equate to more guns in the hands of criminals. That's a ridiculous assertion.
> 
> Yes, if they wanted to murder people, they could. I mean if you had a knife or poison or a car or hands you could also murder people.
> 
> Unfortunately for you and your lunacy, there are no international statistics on the numbers of people who WANT TO MURDER PEOPLE BUT DON'T.
> 
> But thank you for that irrelevant crap anyway.
> 
> So, you're trying to make the argument that gun violence was low before gun control laws were enacted therefore.... therefore... who the fuck knows that comes after therefore. The UK had low numbers of guns before gun control. In 1997 gun control was enacted to stop random mass gun murders, of which there haven't been many while the US has one every month right now.
> 
> So the gun control law works. However you have decided that somehow you either have gun control and it works 100% or you don't have it. You can't have an in between because... because... who the fuck knows what comes after because.
> 
> As for your claim, backed up by not one single statistic, that gun crime didn't go down. Bullshit.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> See here, 2002 gun murders went up, as did murder in general, and then it wen down again. Dropping by more than 50%.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And here's firearms offenses which reached a high in 2006 and then went down too.
> 
> Right, so you've just made up "facts" again, for the umpteenth time. Why do you pull this shit exactly?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> *So the gun control law works. However you have decided that somehow you either have gun control and it works 100% or you don't have it. You can't have an in between because... because... who the fuck knows what comes after because.
> *
> This is pretty much the cornerstone of his bullshit. Refuting claims that have never been made. A rational person reading it would conclude that we need less guns in the UK not more.
> 
> With low gun ownership we have a murder rate that is a fraction of the US with its gun culture. It is impossible to make a coherent argument against that.
Click to expand...



Gun ownership doesn't drive the murder rate...criminals deciding to murder their victims drives the murder rate and as we keep showing you, criminals in Britain have guns......lots of guns....they don't use them to murder their victims as often as American criminals do.  You can't make a coherent argument because you can't explain how you have more gun crime in Britain after you banned and confiscated guns...while in America we have less gun crime as more Americans own and actually carry guns.  You go to the British gun murder rate in a desperate attempt to hide your inability to explain more gun crime, but as we show you that Britain had a low gun murder rate before they banned guns, you can't explain the increase in gun crime...so you keep hyping the already low gun murder rate as an indication that gun control is working....

Since British criminals are using guns more often, not less....gun control is not working...since the point is to keep guns out of the hands of criminals....


----------



## harmonica

FOUR times lower than the US


----------



## 2aguy

frigidweirdo said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> You just admitted in your post that gun crime is not dependent on gun control......it is about time you admitted it.   Criminals use guns...they don't always use them for murder.....and Britain has a growing gun crime problem......
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, I admit that the number of guns does not lead to X amount of gun crime or gun murders.
> 
> This topic is not just "this leads to that every single time". There are lots and lots of factors in what leads to higher murder rates. But then dealing with lots and lots of factors with a guy who repeatedly misuses single facts and statistics is going to be futile, isn't it?
> 
> The only time when complexity is convenient for you is when your simplistic argument has been destroyed and you're clinging on to whatever you can find.
> 
> You can't even be honest enough to answer questions properly, but you continue to misrepresent every single time. Oh, and insult. Remember the "Moron" and then your reason why I was a "Moron" was you not responding to what I wrote and saying something completely disconnected with what I said?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Yes...you are another one who hides the failure of gun control laws in Britain by focusing on gun murder which has never been a major problem in Britain, since their criminals didn't do it...even before they banned guns.   You have to hide the fact that gun crime, the illegal use of guns in the commission of violent crimes against unarmed citizens, is increasing...
> 
> And if the criminals have the guns in increasing numbers, what gun control law is stopping them from walking into a church, a school or a mall?  And which gun control law keeps them from pulling the trigger and aiming at the head or chest instead of the leg?
> 
> Please explain how that works.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Easy availability of guns means that criminals value their weapons less, which means they're more likely to use them.
> 
> Whereas in the UK a criminal might be able to get a gun, or might not, it might cost them more and it might be more of a struggle to get another one.
> 
> Also that gun warfare isn't prevalent means guns are often used as a means of scaring people, rather than actually having to use them.
> 
> But then again, I showed you the murder rate in the US and the UK compared in a chart, and somehow you believe this is me "focusing on gun murder".
> 
> Another one of your inabilities to know what people are talking about in your desire to "win" of get what you want regardless of the truth.
> 
> UK gun control laws are not a failure. They're also not 100% effective, but what laws are?
> 
> But the UK gun murder rate is massively low, it's murder rate isn't high. It's a success.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> You think that criminals are not getting more guns now?    Your post has no bearing on the fact that Britain's criminals are getting more guns... you only focus on gun murder since that hasn't changed in Britain, except for the massive spike immediately after they banned guns.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You want to show that criminals are getting more guns now. Then prove it. Until then I call bullshit on your fake crap.
Click to expand...



Here......a history of increasing gun crime in Britain after they banned guns...

Culture of violence: Gun crime goes up by 89% in a decade | Daily Mail Online

The latest Government figures show that the total number of firearm offences in England and Wales has increased from 5,209 in 1998/99 to 9,865 last year - a rise of 89 per cent. 

*The number of people injured or killed by guns, excluding air weapons, has increased from 864 in 1998/99 to a provisional figure of 1,760 in 2008/09, an increase of 104 per cent . *


========



Crime rise is biggest in a decade, ONS figures show

Ministers will also be concerned that the country is becoming increasingly violent in nature, with gun crime rising 23% to 6,375 offences, largely driven by an increase in the use of handguns.

=========



Gun crime in London increases by 42% - BBC News

Gun crime offences in London surged by 42% in the last year, according to official statistics.

Top trauma surgeon reveals shocking extent of London’s gun crime

A leading trauma surgeon has told how the number of patients treated for gunshot injuries at a major London hospital has doubled in the last five years. 

----

He said the hospital’s major trauma centre had seen a bigger rise in gunshot injuries compared to knife wounds and that the average age of victims was getting younger. 

-----

Last year, gun crime offences in London increased for a third year running and by 42 per cent, from 1,793 offences in 2015/16 to 2,544 offences in 2016/17. Police have seized 635 guns off the streets so far this year.

Dr Griffiths, who also teaches medical students, said: “Our numbers of victims of gun injury have doubled [since 2012]. Gunshot injuries represent about 2.5 per cent of our penetrating trauma. 

-----

Dr Griffiths said the average age of gun crime victims needing treatment at the hospital had decreased from 25 to the mid to late teens since 2012. 

He added that medics at the Barts Health hospital’s major trauma centre in Whitechapel had seen a bigger rise in patients with gun injuries rather than knife wounds and that most were caused by pistols or shotguns. 

Met Police commander Jim Stokley, who was also invited to speak at the meeting, said that handguns and shotguns were the weapons of choice and that 46 per cent of London’s gun crime discharges were gang-related.

He said: “We believe that a lot of it is associated with the drugs trade, and by that I mean people dealing drugs at street level and disagreements between different gangs.”


----------



## 2aguy

harmonica said:


> FOUR times lower than the US




And again, that has nothing to do with their gun control laws....

Culture of violence: Gun crime goes up by 89% in a decade | Daily Mail Online

The latest Government figures show that the total number of firearm offences in England and Wales has increased from 5,209 in 1998/99 to 9,865 last year - a rise of 89 per cent. 

The number of people injured or killed by guns, excluding air weapons, has increased from 864 in 1998/99 to a provisional figure of 1,760 in 2008/09, an increase of 104 per cent . 


========



Crime rise is biggest in a decade, ONS figures show

Ministers will also be concerned that the country is becoming increasingly violent in nature, with gun crime rising 23% to 6,375 offences, largely driven by an increase in the use of handguns.

=========



Gun crime in London increases by 42% - BBC News

Gun crime offences in London surged by 42% in the last year, according to official statistics.

Top trauma surgeon reveals shocking extent of London’s gun crime

A leading trauma surgeon has told how the number of patients treated for gunshot injuries at a major London hospital has doubled in the last five years. 

----

He said the hospital’s major trauma centre had seen a bigger rise in gunshot injuries compared to knife wounds and that the average age of victims was getting younger. 

-----

Last year, gun crime offences in London increased for a third year running and by 42 per cent, from 1,793 offences in 2015/16 to 2,544 offences in 2016/17. Police have seized 635 guns off the streets so far this year.

Dr Griffiths, who also teaches medical students, said: “Our numbers of victims of gun injury have doubled [since 2012]. Gunshot injuries represent about 2.5 per cent of our penetrating trauma. 

-----

Dr Griffiths said the average age of gun crime victims needing treatment at the hospital had decreased from 25 to the mid to late teens since 2012. 

He added that medics at the Barts Health hospital’s major trauma centre in Whitechapel had seen a bigger rise in patients with gun injuries rather than knife wounds and that most were caused by pistols or shotguns. 

Met Police commander Jim Stokley, who was also invited to speak at the meeting, said that handguns and shotguns were the weapons of choice and that 46 per cent of London’s gun crime discharges were gang-related.

He said: “We believe that a lot of it is associated with the drugs trade, and by that I mean people dealing drugs at street level and disagreements between different gangs.”


----------



## Tommy Tainant

2aguy said:


> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, I admit that the number of guns does not lead to X amount of gun crime or gun murders.
> 
> This topic is not just "this leads to that every single time". There are lots and lots of factors in what leads to higher murder rates. But then dealing with lots and lots of factors with a guy who repeatedly misuses single facts and statistics is going to be futile, isn't it?
> 
> The only time when complexity is convenient for you is when your simplistic argument has been destroyed and you're clinging on to whatever you can find.
> 
> You can't even be honest enough to answer questions properly, but you continue to misrepresent every single time. Oh, and insult. Remember the "Moron" and then your reason why I was a "Moron" was you not responding to what I wrote and saying something completely disconnected with what I said?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes...you are another one who hides the failure of gun control laws in Britain by focusing on gun murder which has never been a major problem in Britain, since their criminals didn't do it...even before they banned guns.   You have to hide the fact that gun crime, the illegal use of guns in the commission of violent crimes against unarmed citizens, is increasing...
> 
> And if the criminals have the guns in increasing numbers, what gun control law is stopping them from walking into a church, a school or a mall?  And which gun control law keeps them from pulling the trigger and aiming at the head or chest instead of the leg?
> 
> Please explain how that works.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Easy availability of guns means that criminals value their weapons less, which means they're more likely to use them.
> 
> Whereas in the UK a criminal might be able to get a gun, or might not, it might cost them more and it might be more of a struggle to get another one.
> 
> Also that gun warfare isn't prevalent means guns are often used as a means of scaring people, rather than actually having to use them.
> 
> But then again, I showed you the murder rate in the US and the UK compared in a chart, and somehow you believe this is me "focusing on gun murder".
> 
> Another one of your inabilities to know what people are talking about in your desire to "win" of get what you want regardless of the truth.
> 
> UK gun control laws are not a failure. They're also not 100% effective, but what laws are?
> 
> But the UK gun murder rate is massively low, it's murder rate isn't high. It's a success.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> You think that criminals are not getting more guns now?    Your post has no bearing on the fact that Britain's criminals are getting more guns... you only focus on gun murder since that hasn't changed in Britain, except for the massive spike immediately after they banned guns.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You want to show that criminals are getting more guns now. Then prove it. Until then I call bullshit on your fake crap.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Here......a history of increasing gun crime in Britain after they banned guns...
> 
> Culture of violence: Gun crime goes up by 89% in a decade | Daily Mail Online
> 
> The latest Government figures show that the total number of firearm offences in England and Wales has increased from 5,209 in 1998/99 to 9,865 last year - a rise of 89 per cent.
> 
> *The number of people injured or killed by guns, excluding air weapons, has increased from 864 in 1998/99 to a provisional figure of 1,760 in 2008/09, an increase of 104 per cent . *
> 
> 
> ========
> 
> 
> 
> Crime rise is biggest in a decade, ONS figures show
> 
> Ministers will also be concerned that the country is becoming increasingly violent in nature, with gun crime rising 23% to 6,375 offences, largely driven by an increase in the use of handguns.
> 
> =========
> 
> 
> 
> Gun crime in London increases by 42% - BBC News
> 
> Gun crime offences in London surged by 42% in the last year, according to official statistics.
> 
> Top trauma surgeon reveals shocking extent of London’s gun crime
> 
> A leading trauma surgeon has told how the number of patients treated for gunshot injuries at a major London hospital has doubled in the last five years.
> 
> ----
> 
> He said the hospital’s major trauma centre had seen a bigger rise in gunshot injuries compared to knife wounds and that the average age of victims was getting younger.
> 
> -----
> 
> Last year, gun crime offences in London increased for a third year running and by 42 per cent, from 1,793 offences in 2015/16 to 2,544 offences in 2016/17. Police have seized 635 guns off the streets so far this year.
> 
> Dr Griffiths, who also teaches medical students, said: “Our numbers of victims of gun injury have doubled [since 2012]. Gunshot injuries represent about 2.5 per cent of our penetrating trauma.
> 
> -----
> 
> Dr Griffiths said the average age of gun crime victims needing treatment at the hospital had decreased from 25 to the mid to late teens since 2012.
> 
> He added that medics at the Barts Health hospital’s major trauma centre in Whitechapel had seen a bigger rise in patients with gun injuries rather than knife wounds and that most were caused by pistols or shotguns.
> 
> Met Police commander Jim Stokley, who was also invited to speak at the meeting, said that handguns and shotguns were the weapons of choice and that 46 per cent of London’s gun crime discharges were gang-related.
> 
> He said: “We believe that a lot of it is associated with the drugs trade, and by that I mean people dealing drugs at street level and disagreements between different gangs.”
Click to expand...

Guns arent banned in the UK. But gun ownership is limited. Thats why our death rates are a fraction of yours. You have lost this argument so many times its laughable.


----------



## 2aguy

Tommy Tainant said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yes...you are another one who hides the failure of gun control laws in Britain by focusing on gun murder which has never been a major problem in Britain, since their criminals didn't do it...even before they banned guns.   You have to hide the fact that gun crime, the illegal use of guns in the commission of violent crimes against unarmed citizens, is increasing...
> 
> And if the criminals have the guns in increasing numbers, what gun control law is stopping them from walking into a church, a school or a mall?  And which gun control law keeps them from pulling the trigger and aiming at the head or chest instead of the leg?
> 
> Please explain how that works.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Easy availability of guns means that criminals value their weapons less, which means they're more likely to use them.
> 
> Whereas in the UK a criminal might be able to get a gun, or might not, it might cost them more and it might be more of a struggle to get another one.
> 
> Also that gun warfare isn't prevalent means guns are often used as a means of scaring people, rather than actually having to use them.
> 
> But then again, I showed you the murder rate in the US and the UK compared in a chart, and somehow you believe this is me "focusing on gun murder".
> 
> Another one of your inabilities to know what people are talking about in your desire to "win" of get what you want regardless of the truth.
> 
> UK gun control laws are not a failure. They're also not 100% effective, but what laws are?
> 
> But the UK gun murder rate is massively low, it's murder rate isn't high. It's a success.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> You think that criminals are not getting more guns now?    Your post has no bearing on the fact that Britain's criminals are getting more guns... you only focus on gun murder since that hasn't changed in Britain, except for the massive spike immediately after they banned guns.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You want to show that criminals are getting more guns now. Then prove it. Until then I call bullshit on your fake crap.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Here......a history of increasing gun crime in Britain after they banned guns...
> 
> Culture of violence: Gun crime goes up by 89% in a decade | Daily Mail Online
> 
> The latest Government figures show that the total number of firearm offences in England and Wales has increased from 5,209 in 1998/99 to 9,865 last year - a rise of 89 per cent.
> 
> *The number of people injured or killed by guns, excluding air weapons, has increased from 864 in 1998/99 to a provisional figure of 1,760 in 2008/09, an increase of 104 per cent . *
> 
> 
> ========
> 
> 
> 
> Crime rise is biggest in a decade, ONS figures show
> 
> Ministers will also be concerned that the country is becoming increasingly violent in nature, with gun crime rising 23% to 6,375 offences, largely driven by an increase in the use of handguns.
> 
> =========
> 
> 
> 
> Gun crime in London increases by 42% - BBC News
> 
> Gun crime offences in London surged by 42% in the last year, according to official statistics.
> 
> Top trauma surgeon reveals shocking extent of London’s gun crime
> 
> A leading trauma surgeon has told how the number of patients treated for gunshot injuries at a major London hospital has doubled in the last five years.
> 
> ----
> 
> He said the hospital’s major trauma centre had seen a bigger rise in gunshot injuries compared to knife wounds and that the average age of victims was getting younger.
> 
> -----
> 
> Last year, gun crime offences in London increased for a third year running and by 42 per cent, from 1,793 offences in 2015/16 to 2,544 offences in 2016/17. Police have seized 635 guns off the streets so far this year.
> 
> Dr Griffiths, who also teaches medical students, said: “Our numbers of victims of gun injury have doubled [since 2012]. Gunshot injuries represent about 2.5 per cent of our penetrating trauma.
> 
> -----
> 
> Dr Griffiths said the average age of gun crime victims needing treatment at the hospital had decreased from 25 to the mid to late teens since 2012.
> 
> He added that medics at the Barts Health hospital’s major trauma centre in Whitechapel had seen a bigger rise in patients with gun injuries rather than knife wounds and that most were caused by pistols or shotguns.
> 
> Met Police commander Jim Stokley, who was also invited to speak at the meeting, said that handguns and shotguns were the weapons of choice and that 46 per cent of London’s gun crime discharges were gang-related.
> 
> He said: “We believe that a lot of it is associated with the drugs trade, and by that I mean people dealing drugs at street level and disagreements between different gangs.”
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Guns arent banned in the UK. But gun ownership is limited. Thats why our death rates are a fraction of yours. You have lost this argument so many times its laughable.
Click to expand...



No....you are wrong....gun ownership is limited for law abiding citizens...the ones who weren't using them for crime in the first place...but among criminals, gun crime is up 42% in London and up 23% across England and Wales...they obviously didn't get the message that guns are limited.


----------



## frigidweirdo

2aguy said:


> Tommy Tainant said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> 
> Easy availability of guns means that criminals value their weapons less, which means they're more likely to use them.
> 
> Whereas in the UK a criminal might be able to get a gun, or might not, it might cost them more and it might be more of a struggle to get another one.
> 
> Also that gun warfare isn't prevalent means guns are often used as a means of scaring people, rather than actually having to use them.
> 
> But then again, I showed you the murder rate in the US and the UK compared in a chart, and somehow you believe this is me "focusing on gun murder".
> 
> Another one of your inabilities to know what people are talking about in your desire to "win" of get what you want regardless of the truth.
> 
> UK gun control laws are not a failure. They're also not 100% effective, but what laws are?
> 
> But the UK gun murder rate is massively low, it's murder rate isn't high. It's a success.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You think that criminals are not getting more guns now?    Your post has no bearing on the fact that Britain's criminals are getting more guns... you only focus on gun murder since that hasn't changed in Britain, except for the massive spike immediately after they banned guns.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You want to show that criminals are getting more guns now. Then prove it. Until then I call bullshit on your fake crap.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Here......a history of increasing gun crime in Britain after they banned guns...
> 
> Culture of violence: Gun crime goes up by 89% in a decade | Daily Mail Online
> 
> The latest Government figures show that the total number of firearm offences in England and Wales has increased from 5,209 in 1998/99 to 9,865 last year - a rise of 89 per cent.
> 
> *The number of people injured or killed by guns, excluding air weapons, has increased from 864 in 1998/99 to a provisional figure of 1,760 in 2008/09, an increase of 104 per cent . *
> 
> 
> ========
> 
> 
> 
> Crime rise is biggest in a decade, ONS figures show
> 
> Ministers will also be concerned that the country is becoming increasingly violent in nature, with gun crime rising 23% to 6,375 offences, largely driven by an increase in the use of handguns.
> 
> =========
> 
> 
> 
> Gun crime in London increases by 42% - BBC News
> 
> Gun crime offences in London surged by 42% in the last year, according to official statistics.
> 
> Top trauma surgeon reveals shocking extent of London’s gun crime
> 
> A leading trauma surgeon has told how the number of patients treated for gunshot injuries at a major London hospital has doubled in the last five years.
> 
> ----
> 
> He said the hospital’s major trauma centre had seen a bigger rise in gunshot injuries compared to knife wounds and that the average age of victims was getting younger.
> 
> -----
> 
> Last year, gun crime offences in London increased for a third year running and by 42 per cent, from 1,793 offences in 2015/16 to 2,544 offences in 2016/17. Police have seized 635 guns off the streets so far this year.
> 
> Dr Griffiths, who also teaches medical students, said: “Our numbers of victims of gun injury have doubled [since 2012]. Gunshot injuries represent about 2.5 per cent of our penetrating trauma.
> 
> -----
> 
> Dr Griffiths said the average age of gun crime victims needing treatment at the hospital had decreased from 25 to the mid to late teens since 2012.
> 
> He added that medics at the Barts Health hospital’s major trauma centre in Whitechapel had seen a bigger rise in patients with gun injuries rather than knife wounds and that most were caused by pistols or shotguns.
> 
> Met Police commander Jim Stokley, who was also invited to speak at the meeting, said that handguns and shotguns were the weapons of choice and that 46 per cent of London’s gun crime discharges were gang-related.
> 
> He said: “We believe that a lot of it is associated with the drugs trade, and by that I mean people dealing drugs at street level and disagreements between different gangs.”
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Guns arent banned in the UK. But gun ownership is limited. Thats why our death rates are a fraction of yours. You have lost this argument so many times its laughable.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> No....you are wrong....gun ownership is limited for law abiding citizens...the ones who weren't using them for crime in the first place...but among criminals, gun crime is up 42% in London and up 23% across England and Wales...they obviously didn't get the message that guns are limited.
Click to expand...


Guns are limited, "law abiding people" can have guns too. 

Crime is up. You've been told why crime is up, because of the right wing government in power. 

But crime is up, and still MASSIVELY LOWER THAN IN THE USA.


----------



## frigidweirdo

2aguy said:


> harmonica said:
> 
> 
> 
> FOUR times lower than the US
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And again, that has nothing to do with their gun control laws....
> 
> Culture of violence: Gun crime goes up by 89% in a decade | Daily Mail Online
> 
> The latest Government figures show that the total number of firearm offences in England and Wales has increased from 5,209 in 1998/99 to 9,865 last year - a rise of 89 per cent.
> 
> The number of people injured or killed by guns, excluding air weapons, has increased from 864 in 1998/99 to a provisional figure of 1,760 in 2008/09, an increase of 104 per cent .
> 
> 
> ========
> 
> 
> 
> Crime rise is biggest in a decade, ONS figures show
> 
> Ministers will also be concerned that the country is becoming increasingly violent in nature, with gun crime rising 23% to 6,375 offences, largely driven by an increase in the use of handguns.
> 
> =========
> 
> 
> 
> Gun crime in London increases by 42% - BBC News
> 
> Gun crime offences in London surged by 42% in the last year, according to official statistics.
> 
> Top trauma surgeon reveals shocking extent of London’s gun crime
> 
> A leading trauma surgeon has told how the number of patients treated for gunshot injuries at a major London hospital has doubled in the last five years.
> 
> ----
> 
> He said the hospital’s major trauma centre had seen a bigger rise in gunshot injuries compared to knife wounds and that the average age of victims was getting younger.
> 
> -----
> 
> Last year, gun crime offences in London increased for a third year running and by 42 per cent, from 1,793 offences in 2015/16 to 2,544 offences in 2016/17. Police have seized 635 guns off the streets so far this year.
> 
> Dr Griffiths, who also teaches medical students, said: “Our numbers of victims of gun injury have doubled [since 2012]. Gunshot injuries represent about 2.5 per cent of our penetrating trauma.
> 
> -----
> 
> Dr Griffiths said the average age of gun crime victims needing treatment at the hospital had decreased from 25 to the mid to late teens since 2012.
> 
> He added that medics at the Barts Health hospital’s major trauma centre in Whitechapel had seen a bigger rise in patients with gun injuries rather than knife wounds and that most were caused by pistols or shotguns.
> 
> Met Police commander Jim Stokley, who was also invited to speak at the meeting, said that handguns and shotguns were the weapons of choice and that 46 per cent of London’s gun crime discharges were gang-related.
> 
> He said: “We believe that a lot of it is associated with the drugs trade, and by that I mean people dealing drugs at street level and disagreements between different gangs.”
Click to expand...


Yes, it has A LOT to do with gun control laws.


----------



## harmonica

2aguy said:


> harmonica said:
> 
> 
> 
> FOUR times lower than the US
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And again, that has nothing to do with their gun control laws....
> 
> Culture of violence: Gun crime goes up by 89% in a decade | Daily Mail Online
> 
> The latest Government figures show that the total number of firearm offences in England and Wales has increased from 5,209 in 1998/99 to 9,865 last year - a rise of 89 per cent.
> 
> The number of people injured or killed by guns, excluding air weapons, has increased from 864 in 1998/99 to a provisional figure of 1,760 in 2008/09, an increase of 104 per cent .
> 
> 
> ========
> 
> 
> 
> Crime rise is biggest in a decade, ONS figures show
> 
> Ministers will also be concerned that the country is becoming increasingly violent in nature, with gun crime rising 23% to 6,375 offences, largely driven by an increase in the use of handguns.
> 
> =========
> 
> 
> 
> Gun crime in London increases by 42% - BBC News
> 
> Gun crime offences in London surged by 42% in the last year, according to official statistics.
> 
> Top trauma surgeon reveals shocking extent of London’s gun crime
> 
> A leading trauma surgeon has told how the number of patients treated for gunshot injuries at a major London hospital has doubled in the last five years.
> 
> ----
> 
> He said the hospital’s major trauma centre had seen a bigger rise in gunshot injuries compared to knife wounds and that the average age of victims was getting younger.
> 
> -----
> 
> Last year, gun crime offences in London increased for a third year running and by 42 per cent, from 1,793 offences in 2015/16 to 2,544 offences in 2016/17. Police have seized 635 guns off the streets so far this year.
> 
> Dr Griffiths, who also teaches medical students, said: “Our numbers of victims of gun injury have doubled [since 2012]. Gunshot injuries represent about 2.5 per cent of our penetrating trauma.
> 
> -----
> 
> Dr Griffiths said the average age of gun crime victims needing treatment at the hospital had decreased from 25 to the mid to late teens since 2012.
> 
> He added that medics at the Barts Health hospital’s major trauma centre in Whitechapel had seen a bigger rise in patients with gun injuries rather than knife wounds and that most were caused by pistols or shotguns.
> 
> Met Police commander Jim Stokley, who was also invited to speak at the meeting, said that handguns and shotguns were the weapons of choice and that 46 per cent of London’s gun crime discharges were gang-related.
> 
> He said: “We believe that a lot of it is associated with the drugs trade, and by that I mean people dealing drugs at street level and disagreements between different gangs.”
Click to expand...

then tell me what makes the difference


----------



## harmonica

2aguy said:


> Tommy Tainant said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> 
> Easy availability of guns means that criminals value their weapons less, which means they're more likely to use them.
> 
> Whereas in the UK a criminal might be able to get a gun, or might not, it might cost them more and it might be more of a struggle to get another one.
> 
> Also that gun warfare isn't prevalent means guns are often used as a means of scaring people, rather than actually having to use them.
> 
> But then again, I showed you the murder rate in the US and the UK compared in a chart, and somehow you believe this is me "focusing on gun murder".
> 
> Another one of your inabilities to know what people are talking about in your desire to "win" of get what you want regardless of the truth.
> 
> UK gun control laws are not a failure. They're also not 100% effective, but what laws are?
> 
> But the UK gun murder rate is massively low, it's murder rate isn't high. It's a success.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You think that criminals are not getting more guns now?    Your post has no bearing on the fact that Britain's criminals are getting more guns... you only focus on gun murder since that hasn't changed in Britain, except for the massive spike immediately after they banned guns.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You want to show that criminals are getting more guns now. Then prove it. Until then I call bullshit on your fake crap.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Here......a history of increasing gun crime in Britain after they banned guns...
> 
> Culture of violence: Gun crime goes up by 89% in a decade | Daily Mail Online
> 
> The latest Government figures show that the total number of firearm offences in England and Wales has increased from 5,209 in 1998/99 to 9,865 last year - a rise of 89 per cent.
> 
> *The number of people injured or killed by guns, excluding air weapons, has increased from 864 in 1998/99 to a provisional figure of 1,760 in 2008/09, an increase of 104 per cent . *
> 
> 
> ========
> 
> 
> 
> Crime rise is biggest in a decade, ONS figures show
> 
> Ministers will also be concerned that the country is becoming increasingly violent in nature, with gun crime rising 23% to 6,375 offences, largely driven by an increase in the use of handguns.
> 
> =========
> 
> 
> 
> Gun crime in London increases by 42% - BBC News
> 
> Gun crime offences in London surged by 42% in the last year, according to official statistics.
> 
> Top trauma surgeon reveals shocking extent of London’s gun crime
> 
> A leading trauma surgeon has told how the number of patients treated for gunshot injuries at a major London hospital has doubled in the last five years.
> 
> ----
> 
> He said the hospital’s major trauma centre had seen a bigger rise in gunshot injuries compared to knife wounds and that the average age of victims was getting younger.
> 
> -----
> 
> Last year, gun crime offences in London increased for a third year running and by 42 per cent, from 1,793 offences in 2015/16 to 2,544 offences in 2016/17. Police have seized 635 guns off the streets so far this year.
> 
> Dr Griffiths, who also teaches medical students, said: “Our numbers of victims of gun injury have doubled [since 2012]. Gunshot injuries represent about 2.5 per cent of our penetrating trauma.
> 
> -----
> 
> Dr Griffiths said the average age of gun crime victims needing treatment at the hospital had decreased from 25 to the mid to late teens since 2012.
> 
> He added that medics at the Barts Health hospital’s major trauma centre in Whitechapel had seen a bigger rise in patients with gun injuries rather than knife wounds and that most were caused by pistols or shotguns.
> 
> Met Police commander Jim Stokley, who was also invited to speak at the meeting, said that handguns and shotguns were the weapons of choice and that 46 per cent of London’s gun crime discharges were gang-related.
> 
> He said: “We believe that a lot of it is associated with the drugs trade, and by that I mean people dealing drugs at street level and disagreements between different gangs.”
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Guns arent banned in the UK. But gun ownership is limited. Thats why our death rates are a fraction of yours. You have lost this argument so many times its laughable.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> No....you are wrong....gun ownership is limited for law abiding citizens...the ones who weren't using them for crime in the first place...but among criminals, gun crime is up 42% in London and up 23% across England and Wales...they obviously didn't get the message that guns are limited.
Click to expand...

their murder rate is FOUR times lower
but who cares about that/murder/etc?


----------



## frigidweirdo

2aguy said:


> Tommy Tainant said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> idb said:
> 
> 
> 
> The regular point that 2aguy makes is that gun laws don't prevent gun crimes 100% so should be scrapped.
> The answer just writes itself.
> Why have drug laws, abortion laws, immigration laws...?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The point that 2Aguy makes is that he's an absolute fraud and "fake news" reporter.
> 
> No, gun laws don't stop things 100%, who said they do?
> 
> The UK's murder rate is 4 time or more lower than the US's. A rise in crime is inevitable as is a drop in crime at other times. That's what happens in life.
> 
> The fraud is trying to claim that a rise is worse than a drop in crime and murders, REGARDLESS of what the rate is in the first place. This is just ridiculous.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> And again, you go to a statistic that is not relevant to the gun control laws in Britain working, since gun crime is going up..which means there are more guns in the hands of criminals in Britain...... that means that if they wanted to murder people with those guns, they could.
> 
> You keep being told over and over again that Britain did not have a high gun murder rate for it's entire history.....that means before they banned guns.   Then, they banned guns and there was a spike in gun murder, and now it has gone down...what didn't go down?   Gun crime...that is up...not down.  You need to distract attention away from that fact.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You're telling me about stuff that's not relevant? Wow, the king of posting totally irrelevant crap.
> 
> No, more gun crime does not equate to more guns in the hands of criminals. That's a ridiculous assertion.
> 
> Yes, if they wanted to murder people, they could. I mean if you had a knife or poison or a car or hands you could also murder people.
> 
> Unfortunately for you and your lunacy, there are no international statistics on the numbers of people who WANT TO MURDER PEOPLE BUT DON'T.
> 
> But thank you for that irrelevant crap anyway.
> 
> So, you're trying to make the argument that gun violence was low before gun control laws were enacted therefore.... therefore... who the fuck knows that comes after therefore. The UK had low numbers of guns before gun control. In 1997 gun control was enacted to stop random mass gun murders, of which there haven't been many while the US has one every month right now.
> 
> So the gun control law works. However you have decided that somehow you either have gun control and it works 100% or you don't have it. You can't have an in between because... because... who the fuck knows what comes after because.
> 
> As for your claim, backed up by not one single statistic, that gun crime didn't go down. Bullshit.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> See here, 2002 gun murders went up, as did murder in general, and then it wen down again. Dropping by more than 50%.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And here's firearms offenses which reached a high in 2006 and then went down too.
> 
> Right, so you've just made up "facts" again, for the umpteenth time. Why do you pull this shit exactly?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> *So the gun control law works. However you have decided that somehow you either have gun control and it works 100% or you don't have it. You can't have an in between because... because... who the fuck knows what comes after because.
> *
> This is pretty much the cornerstone of his bullshit. Refuting claims that have never been made. A rational person reading it would conclude that we need less guns in the UK not more.
> 
> With low gun ownership we have a murder rate that is a fraction of the US with its gun culture. It is impossible to make a coherent argument against that.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Gun ownership doesn't drive the murder rate...criminals deciding to murder their victims drives the murder rate and as we keep showing you, criminals in Britain have guns......lots of guns....they don't use them to murder their victims as often as American criminals do.  You can't make a coherent argument because you can't explain how you have more gun crime in Britain after you banned and confiscated guns...while in America we have less gun crime as more Americans own and actually carry guns.  You go to the British gun murder rate in a desperate attempt to hide your inability to explain more gun crime, but as we show you that Britain had a low gun murder rate before they banned guns, you can't explain the increase in gun crime...so you keep hyping the already low gun murder rate as an indication that gun control is working....
> 
> Since British criminals are using guns more often, not less....gun control is not working...since the point is to keep guns out of the hands of criminals....
Click to expand...


Gun ownership itself doesn't drive murder. There's far more to it than that. 

Easy availability of guns is one massive factor here. It's the difference between having a gun and using it freely, and having a gun and protecting it. 

The inability of US politicians to actually give a fuck about sorting out social problems is another reason why guns exacerbate already bad problems. 

The problem here is you don't understand Britain's gun bans and how they worked. So you're pretending there were lots of guns and then all of a sudden there weren't lots of guns. It never worked like that. 

Guns have never been totally banned. Over a period of time guns have been more limited. In 1997 handguns were banned. It wasn't like many people actually had handguns in the first place. The ban didn't impact many people. So it wasn't actually much of a watershed moment for guns at all. Had handguns not been banned, not much would have changed. 

I can explain the increase in gun crime. Guns can get into the UK because the UK has a massive coastline. However guns are not easily available. 

With the prevalence of US TV shows, some kids think it's cool to get guns. There was a short period of time where gun crime increased for a period of about two months. It was caused by young kids using guns as if they were in the US. For the police it was a problem, but they were able to deal with this situation because they could mop up the guns, and then they can't easily get more.

But you keep going out of your way to attack me and leave yourself open to ridicule when you say stuff that is based on ignorance.


----------



## frigidweirdo

harmonica said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tommy Tainant said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> You think that criminals are not getting more guns now?    Your post has no bearing on the fact that Britain's criminals are getting more guns... you only focus on gun murder since that hasn't changed in Britain, except for the massive spike immediately after they banned guns.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You want to show that criminals are getting more guns now. Then prove it. Until then I call bullshit on your fake crap.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Here......a history of increasing gun crime in Britain after they banned guns...
> 
> Culture of violence: Gun crime goes up by 89% in a decade | Daily Mail Online
> 
> The latest Government figures show that the total number of firearm offences in England and Wales has increased from 5,209 in 1998/99 to 9,865 last year - a rise of 89 per cent.
> 
> *The number of people injured or killed by guns, excluding air weapons, has increased from 864 in 1998/99 to a provisional figure of 1,760 in 2008/09, an increase of 104 per cent . *
> 
> 
> ========
> 
> 
> 
> Crime rise is biggest in a decade, ONS figures show
> 
> Ministers will also be concerned that the country is becoming increasingly violent in nature, with gun crime rising 23% to 6,375 offences, largely driven by an increase in the use of handguns.
> 
> =========
> 
> 
> 
> Gun crime in London increases by 42% - BBC News
> 
> Gun crime offences in London surged by 42% in the last year, according to official statistics.
> 
> Top trauma surgeon reveals shocking extent of London’s gun crime
> 
> A leading trauma surgeon has told how the number of patients treated for gunshot injuries at a major London hospital has doubled in the last five years.
> 
> ----
> 
> He said the hospital’s major trauma centre had seen a bigger rise in gunshot injuries compared to knife wounds and that the average age of victims was getting younger.
> 
> -----
> 
> Last year, gun crime offences in London increased for a third year running and by 42 per cent, from 1,793 offences in 2015/16 to 2,544 offences in 2016/17. Police have seized 635 guns off the streets so far this year.
> 
> Dr Griffiths, who also teaches medical students, said: “Our numbers of victims of gun injury have doubled [since 2012]. Gunshot injuries represent about 2.5 per cent of our penetrating trauma.
> 
> -----
> 
> Dr Griffiths said the average age of gun crime victims needing treatment at the hospital had decreased from 25 to the mid to late teens since 2012.
> 
> He added that medics at the Barts Health hospital’s major trauma centre in Whitechapel had seen a bigger rise in patients with gun injuries rather than knife wounds and that most were caused by pistols or shotguns.
> 
> Met Police commander Jim Stokley, who was also invited to speak at the meeting, said that handguns and shotguns were the weapons of choice and that 46 per cent of London’s gun crime discharges were gang-related.
> 
> He said: “We believe that a lot of it is associated with the drugs trade, and by that I mean people dealing drugs at street level and disagreements between different gangs.”
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Guns arent banned in the UK. But gun ownership is limited. Thats why our death rates are a fraction of yours. You have lost this argument so many times its laughable.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> No....you are wrong....gun ownership is limited for law abiding citizens...the ones who weren't using them for crime in the first place...but among criminals, gun crime is up 42% in London and up 23% across England and Wales...they obviously didn't get the message that guns are limited.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> their murder rate is FOUR times lower
> but who cares about that/murder/etc?
Click to expand...


He's very selective in what he says because he know he doesn't have anything. So he ignores most things and sticks to what he thinks he does have. 

His aim isn't to show the truth. His aim is only to show that guns aren't bad. Even if they are.

So he'll say "an increase in gun crime" because he's hoping people are so fucking stupid that they'll see that and think the UK has a massive problem and the US doesn't. 

It's all he's got.


----------



## harmonica

frigidweirdo said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tommy Tainant said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> 
> The point that 2Aguy makes is that he's an absolute fraud and "fake news" reporter.
> 
> No, gun laws don't stop things 100%, who said they do?
> 
> The UK's murder rate is 4 time or more lower than the US's. A rise in crime is inevitable as is a drop in crime at other times. That's what happens in life.
> 
> The fraud is trying to claim that a rise is worse than a drop in crime and murders, REGARDLESS of what the rate is in the first place. This is just ridiculous.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And again, you go to a statistic that is not relevant to the gun control laws in Britain working, since gun crime is going up..which means there are more guns in the hands of criminals in Britain...... that means that if they wanted to murder people with those guns, they could.
> 
> You keep being told over and over again that Britain did not have a high gun murder rate for it's entire history.....that means before they banned guns.   Then, they banned guns and there was a spike in gun murder, and now it has gone down...what didn't go down?   Gun crime...that is up...not down.  You need to distract attention away from that fact.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You're telling me about stuff that's not relevant? Wow, the king of posting totally irrelevant crap.
> 
> No, more gun crime does not equate to more guns in the hands of criminals. That's a ridiculous assertion.
> 
> Yes, if they wanted to murder people, they could. I mean if you had a knife or poison or a car or hands you could also murder people.
> 
> Unfortunately for you and your lunacy, there are no international statistics on the numbers of people who WANT TO MURDER PEOPLE BUT DON'T.
> 
> But thank you for that irrelevant crap anyway.
> 
> So, you're trying to make the argument that gun violence was low before gun control laws were enacted therefore.... therefore... who the fuck knows that comes after therefore. The UK had low numbers of guns before gun control. In 1997 gun control was enacted to stop random mass gun murders, of which there haven't been many while the US has one every month right now.
> 
> So the gun control law works. However you have decided that somehow you either have gun control and it works 100% or you don't have it. You can't have an in between because... because... who the fuck knows what comes after because.
> 
> As for your claim, backed up by not one single statistic, that gun crime didn't go down. Bullshit.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> See here, 2002 gun murders went up, as did murder in general, and then it wen down again. Dropping by more than 50%.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And here's firearms offenses which reached a high in 2006 and then went down too.
> 
> Right, so you've just made up "facts" again, for the umpteenth time. Why do you pull this shit exactly?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> *So the gun control law works. However you have decided that somehow you either have gun control and it works 100% or you don't have it. You can't have an in between because... because... who the fuck knows what comes after because.
> *
> This is pretty much the cornerstone of his bullshit. Refuting claims that have never been made. A rational person reading it would conclude that we need less guns in the UK not more.
> 
> With low gun ownership we have a murder rate that is a fraction of the US with its gun culture. It is impossible to make a coherent argument against that.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Gun ownership doesn't drive the murder rate...criminals deciding to murder their victims drives the murder rate and as we keep showing you, criminals in Britain have guns......lots of guns....they don't use them to murder their victims as often as American criminals do.  You can't make a coherent argument because you can't explain how you have more gun crime in Britain after you banned and confiscated guns...while in America we have less gun crime as more Americans own and actually carry guns.  You go to the British gun murder rate in a desperate attempt to hide your inability to explain more gun crime, but as we show you that Britain had a low gun murder rate before they banned guns, you can't explain the increase in gun crime...so you keep hyping the already low gun murder rate as an indication that gun control is working....
> 
> Since British criminals are using guns more often, not less....gun control is not working...since the point is to keep guns out of the hands of criminals....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Gun ownership itself doesn't drive murder. There's far more to it than that.
> 
> Easy availability of guns is one massive factor here. It's the difference between having a gun and using it freely, and having a gun and protecting it.
> 
> The inability of US politicians to actually give a fuck about sorting out social problems is another reason why guns exacerbate already bad problems.
> 
> The problem here is you don't understand Britain's gun bans and how they worked. So you're pretending there were lots of guns and then all of a sudden there weren't lots of guns. It never worked like that.
> 
> Guns have never been totally banned. Over a period of time guns have been more limited. In 1997 handguns were banned. It wasn't like many people actually had handguns in the first place. The ban didn't impact many people. So it wasn't actually much of a watershed moment for guns at all. Had handguns not been banned, not much would have changed.
> 
> I can explain the increase in gun crime. Guns can get into the UK because the UK has a massive coastline. However guns are not easily available.
> 
> With the prevalence of US TV shows, some kids think it's cool to get guns. There was a short period of time where gun crime increased for a period of about two months. It was caused by young kids using guns as if they were in the US. For the police it was a problem, but they were able to deal with this situation because they could mop up the guns, and then they can't easily get more.
> 
> But you keep going out of your way to attack me and leave yourself open to ridicule when you say stuff that is based on ignorance.
Click to expand...

guns are the most efficient, designed to kill hand held '''tool''
much *harder t*o kill/commit a crime with a knife/bat/pool/etc


----------



## frigidweirdo

2aguy said:


> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, I admit that the number of guns does not lead to X amount of gun crime or gun murders.
> 
> This topic is not just "this leads to that every single time". There are lots and lots of factors in what leads to higher murder rates. But then dealing with lots and lots of factors with a guy who repeatedly misuses single facts and statistics is going to be futile, isn't it?
> 
> The only time when complexity is convenient for you is when your simplistic argument has been destroyed and you're clinging on to whatever you can find.
> 
> You can't even be honest enough to answer questions properly, but you continue to misrepresent every single time. Oh, and insult. Remember the "Moron" and then your reason why I was a "Moron" was you not responding to what I wrote and saying something completely disconnected with what I said?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes...you are another one who hides the failure of gun control laws in Britain by focusing on gun murder which has never been a major problem in Britain, since their criminals didn't do it...even before they banned guns.   You have to hide the fact that gun crime, the illegal use of guns in the commission of violent crimes against unarmed citizens, is increasing...
> 
> And if the criminals have the guns in increasing numbers, what gun control law is stopping them from walking into a church, a school or a mall?  And which gun control law keeps them from pulling the trigger and aiming at the head or chest instead of the leg?
> 
> Please explain how that works.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Easy availability of guns means that criminals value their weapons less, which means they're more likely to use them.
> 
> Whereas in the UK a criminal might be able to get a gun, or might not, it might cost them more and it might be more of a struggle to get another one.
> 
> Also that gun warfare isn't prevalent means guns are often used as a means of scaring people, rather than actually having to use them.
> 
> But then again, I showed you the murder rate in the US and the UK compared in a chart, and somehow you believe this is me "focusing on gun murder".
> 
> Another one of your inabilities to know what people are talking about in your desire to "win" of get what you want regardless of the truth.
> 
> UK gun control laws are not a failure. They're also not 100% effective, but what laws are?
> 
> But the UK gun murder rate is massively low, it's murder rate isn't high. It's a success.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> You think that criminals are not getting more guns now?    Your post has no bearing on the fact that Britain's criminals are getting more guns... you only focus on gun murder since that hasn't changed in Britain, except for the massive spike immediately after they banned guns.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You want to show that criminals are getting more guns now. Then prove it. Until then I call bullshit on your fake crap.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Here......a history of increasing gun crime in Britain after they banned guns...
> 
> Culture of violence: Gun crime goes up by 89% in a decade | Daily Mail Online
> 
> The latest Government figures show that the total number of firearm offences in England and Wales has increased from 5,209 in 1998/99 to 9,865 last year - a rise of 89 per cent.
> 
> *The number of people injured or killed by guns, excluding air weapons, has increased from 864 in 1998/99 to a provisional figure of 1,760 in 2008/09, an increase of 104 per cent . *
> 
> 
> ========
> 
> 
> 
> Crime rise is biggest in a decade, ONS figures show
> 
> Ministers will also be concerned that the country is becoming increasingly violent in nature, with gun crime rising 23% to 6,375 offences, largely driven by an increase in the use of handguns.
> 
> =========
> 
> 
> 
> Gun crime in London increases by 42% - BBC News
> 
> Gun crime offences in London surged by 42% in the last year, according to official statistics.
> 
> Top trauma surgeon reveals shocking extent of London’s gun crime
> 
> A leading trauma surgeon has told how the number of patients treated for gunshot injuries at a major London hospital has doubled in the last five years.
> 
> ----
> 
> He said the hospital’s major trauma centre had seen a bigger rise in gunshot injuries compared to knife wounds and that the average age of victims was getting younger.
> 
> -----
> 
> Last year, gun crime offences in London increased for a third year running and by 42 per cent, from 1,793 offences in 2015/16 to 2,544 offences in 2016/17. Police have seized 635 guns off the streets so far this year.
> 
> Dr Griffiths, who also teaches medical students, said: “Our numbers of victims of gun injury have doubled [since 2012]. Gunshot injuries represent about 2.5 per cent of our penetrating trauma.
> 
> -----
> 
> Dr Griffiths said the average age of gun crime victims needing treatment at the hospital had decreased from 25 to the mid to late teens since 2012.
> 
> He added that medics at the Barts Health hospital’s major trauma centre in Whitechapel had seen a bigger rise in patients with gun injuries rather than knife wounds and that most were caused by pistols or shotguns.
> 
> Met Police commander Jim Stokley, who was also invited to speak at the meeting, said that handguns and shotguns were the weapons of choice and that 46 per cent of London’s gun crime discharges were gang-related.
> 
> He said: “We believe that a lot of it is associated with the drugs trade, and by that I mean people dealing drugs at street level and disagreements between different gangs.”
Click to expand...


Right, so you need someone to explain it for you? You can't do it yourself?

The Daily Mail is a right wing newspaper that aims to sell with sensationalism.

Also I showed you statistics which tell us that gun violence hit a high in 2006 and then dropped.






Also the Daily Mail is being deliberately dishonest, what a surprise. Had they gone from 1993 to 2009 they'd have seen gun crime rose only slightly in that time, from about 7.75 to 8.2 according to this chart. 

But they wanted to bash the Labour Party. The problem is, it was the Tories' lack of investment in the police, in social problems etc that caused this. It just took a bit of time for it to come about. 

The same thing is happening now. They've been in power 8 years, crime is rising again, police funding is dropping, social problems funding is dropping too. 

Labour took over and had everything going down by the time they left office. 

But you carry on being dishonest and ignorant of the UK.


----------



## Baron

2aguy said:


> Yep....young males, raised without fathers to teach them to be adult men, mixed with 3rd world males running the drug gangs, and the British police hamstrung due to lack of manpower, money, and politically correct rules of engagment.....
> 
> London on course for highest number of killings in a decade after 2018 passes 2017 total




All criminals in Europe have guns, only law-abiding citizens prohibit to posses them. Commies were always allies of thugs.


----------



## Tommy Tainant

This is a quite scary report.
From a Czech warehouse to a street near you: the journey of a gun

But on the other hand it shows how proper gun control works. The guns are confined to criminals and the police are able to track down individual guns. But scary stuff.


----------



## frigidweirdo

Baron said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yep....young males, raised without fathers to teach them to be adult men, mixed with 3rd world males running the drug gangs, and the British police hamstrung due to lack of manpower, money, and politically correct rules of engagment.....
> 
> London on course for highest number of killings in a decade after 2018 passes 2017 total
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> All criminals in Europe have guns, only law-abiding citizens prohibit to posses them. Commies were always allies of thugs.
Click to expand...


Any evidence of this made up "fact"?


----------



## Baron

frigidweirdo said:


> Baron said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yep....young males, raised without fathers to teach them to be adult men, mixed with 3rd world males running the drug gangs, and the British police hamstrung due to lack of manpower, money, and politically correct rules of engagment.....
> 
> London on course for highest number of killings in a decade after 2018 passes 2017 total
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> All criminals in Europe have guns, only law-abiding citizens prohibit to posses them. Commies were always allies of thugs.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Any evidence of this made up "fact"?
Click to expand...


Look all laws and bills passed by lefts ( dems, commies & Co )


----------



## 2aguy

frigidweirdo said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tommy Tainant said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> You think that criminals are not getting more guns now?    Your post has no bearing on the fact that Britain's criminals are getting more guns... you only focus on gun murder since that hasn't changed in Britain, except for the massive spike immediately after they banned guns.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You want to show that criminals are getting more guns now. Then prove it. Until then I call bullshit on your fake crap.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Here......a history of increasing gun crime in Britain after they banned guns...
> 
> Culture of violence: Gun crime goes up by 89% in a decade | Daily Mail Online
> 
> The latest Government figures show that the total number of firearm offences in England and Wales has increased from 5,209 in 1998/99 to 9,865 last year - a rise of 89 per cent.
> 
> *The number of people injured or killed by guns, excluding air weapons, has increased from 864 in 1998/99 to a provisional figure of 1,760 in 2008/09, an increase of 104 per cent . *
> 
> 
> ========
> 
> 
> 
> Crime rise is biggest in a decade, ONS figures show
> 
> Ministers will also be concerned that the country is becoming increasingly violent in nature, with gun crime rising 23% to 6,375 offences, largely driven by an increase in the use of handguns.
> 
> =========
> 
> 
> 
> Gun crime in London increases by 42% - BBC News
> 
> Gun crime offences in London surged by 42% in the last year, according to official statistics.
> 
> Top trauma surgeon reveals shocking extent of London’s gun crime
> 
> A leading trauma surgeon has told how the number of patients treated for gunshot injuries at a major London hospital has doubled in the last five years.
> 
> ----
> 
> He said the hospital’s major trauma centre had seen a bigger rise in gunshot injuries compared to knife wounds and that the average age of victims was getting younger.
> 
> -----
> 
> Last year, gun crime offences in London increased for a third year running and by 42 per cent, from 1,793 offences in 2015/16 to 2,544 offences in 2016/17. Police have seized 635 guns off the streets so far this year.
> 
> Dr Griffiths, who also teaches medical students, said: “Our numbers of victims of gun injury have doubled [since 2012]. Gunshot injuries represent about 2.5 per cent of our penetrating trauma.
> 
> -----
> 
> Dr Griffiths said the average age of gun crime victims needing treatment at the hospital had decreased from 25 to the mid to late teens since 2012.
> 
> He added that medics at the Barts Health hospital’s major trauma centre in Whitechapel had seen a bigger rise in patients with gun injuries rather than knife wounds and that most were caused by pistols or shotguns.
> 
> Met Police commander Jim Stokley, who was also invited to speak at the meeting, said that handguns and shotguns were the weapons of choice and that 46 per cent of London’s gun crime discharges were gang-related.
> 
> He said: “We believe that a lot of it is associated with the drugs trade, and by that I mean people dealing drugs at street level and disagreements between different gangs.”
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Guns arent banned in the UK. But gun ownership is limited. Thats why our death rates are a fraction of yours. You have lost this argument so many times its laughable.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> No....you are wrong....gun ownership is limited for law abiding citizens...the ones who weren't using them for crime in the first place...but among criminals, gun crime is up 42% in London and up 23% across England and Wales...they obviously didn't get the message that guns are limited.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Guns are limited, "law abiding people" can have guns too.
> 
> Crime is up. You've been told why crime is up, because of the right wing government in power.
> 
> But crime is up, and still MASSIVELY LOWER THAN IN THE USA.
Click to expand...



Yes......criminals are getting guns because they need them to support their drug business.....and as the left wing socialists use all the money for social welfare programs, the first groups that get hit are law enforcement....which the socially active left wingers attack as racist and out of control....allowing their manpower to be cut, their resources to be cut and their effectiveness to be cut because of politically correct policies.....

Gun ownership in Britain is reserved for the rich..... those who can own the tiny number of hunting shotguns for shooting game on their estates...meanwhile....the nurse coming home on the tube gets dragged into a park and gang raped because she can't have a gun to defend herself....the senior citizen living in public housing gets beaten and tortured by the feral youths, raised on welfare, without fathers.......

Crime is going up in Britain.....a lot...their social welfare system has finally reached the point of no return....


----------



## miketx

idb said:


> Clearly the only sensible answer is to have more guns freely available...that'll fix it.


It's hard to kill someone or rob or rape them when they are shooting you. Now spin twist lie and smoke that one.


----------



## 2aguy

frigidweirdo said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> harmonica said:
> 
> 
> 
> FOUR times lower than the US
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And again, that has nothing to do with their gun control laws....
> 
> Culture of violence: Gun crime goes up by 89% in a decade | Daily Mail Online
> 
> The latest Government figures show that the total number of firearm offences in England and Wales has increased from 5,209 in 1998/99 to 9,865 last year - a rise of 89 per cent.
> 
> The number of people injured or killed by guns, excluding air weapons, has increased from 864 in 1998/99 to a provisional figure of 1,760 in 2008/09, an increase of 104 per cent .
> 
> 
> ========
> 
> 
> 
> Crime rise is biggest in a decade, ONS figures show
> 
> Ministers will also be concerned that the country is becoming increasingly violent in nature, with gun crime rising 23% to 6,375 offences, largely driven by an increase in the use of handguns.
> 
> =========
> 
> 
> 
> Gun crime in London increases by 42% - BBC News
> 
> Gun crime offences in London surged by 42% in the last year, according to official statistics.
> 
> Top trauma surgeon reveals shocking extent of London’s gun crime
> 
> A leading trauma surgeon has told how the number of patients treated for gunshot injuries at a major London hospital has doubled in the last five years.
> 
> ----
> 
> He said the hospital’s major trauma centre had seen a bigger rise in gunshot injuries compared to knife wounds and that the average age of victims was getting younger.
> 
> -----
> 
> Last year, gun crime offences in London increased for a third year running and by 42 per cent, from 1,793 offences in 2015/16 to 2,544 offences in 2016/17. Police have seized 635 guns off the streets so far this year.
> 
> Dr Griffiths, who also teaches medical students, said: “Our numbers of victims of gun injury have doubled [since 2012]. Gunshot injuries represent about 2.5 per cent of our penetrating trauma.
> 
> -----
> 
> Dr Griffiths said the average age of gun crime victims needing treatment at the hospital had decreased from 25 to the mid to late teens since 2012.
> 
> He added that medics at the Barts Health hospital’s major trauma centre in Whitechapel had seen a bigger rise in patients with gun injuries rather than knife wounds and that most were caused by pistols or shotguns.
> 
> Met Police commander Jim Stokley, who was also invited to speak at the meeting, said that handguns and shotguns were the weapons of choice and that 46 per cent of London’s gun crime discharges were gang-related.
> 
> He said: “We believe that a lot of it is associated with the drugs trade, and by that I mean people dealing drugs at street level and disagreements between different gangs.”
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yes, it has A LOT to do with gun control laws.
Click to expand...



It has nothing to do with their gun control laws... their violent crime rates were low before they banned guns, their gun murder rates were low before they banned guns...now?  Their violent crime is sky rocketing, and their gun murder rates didn't change..since British criminals don't commit murder as often......

Gun control has only added to the violence in Britain as normal, law abiding Brits are helpless in the face of increasingly violent criminals...

And explain this.....why is it that in the United States.... you can't explain this according to your theory, while my points address all of it....

We went from 200 million guns in private hands in the 1990s and 4.7 million people carrying guns for self defense in 1997...to close to 400-600 million guns in private hands and over 17.25  million people carrying guns for self defense in 2018...guess what happened...


--* gun murder down 49%*

*--gun crime down 75%*

*--violent crime down 72%*

Gun Homicide Rate Down 49% Since 1993 Peak; Public Unaware

Compared with 1993, the peak of U.S. gun homicides, the firearm homicide rate was 49% lower in 2010, and there were fewer deaths, even though the nation’s population grew. The victimization rate for other violent crimes with a firearm—assaults, robberies and sex crimes—was 75% lower in 2011 than in 1993. Violent non-fatal crime victimization overall (with or without a firearm) also is down markedly (72%) over two decades.





http://


----------



## 2aguy

harmonica said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tommy Tainant said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> You think that criminals are not getting more guns now?    Your post has no bearing on the fact that Britain's criminals are getting more guns... you only focus on gun murder since that hasn't changed in Britain, except for the massive spike immediately after they banned guns.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You want to show that criminals are getting more guns now. Then prove it. Until then I call bullshit on your fake crap.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Here......a history of increasing gun crime in Britain after they banned guns...
> 
> Culture of violence: Gun crime goes up by 89% in a decade | Daily Mail Online
> 
> The latest Government figures show that the total number of firearm offences in England and Wales has increased from 5,209 in 1998/99 to 9,865 last year - a rise of 89 per cent.
> 
> *The number of people injured or killed by guns, excluding air weapons, has increased from 864 in 1998/99 to a provisional figure of 1,760 in 2008/09, an increase of 104 per cent . *
> 
> 
> ========
> 
> 
> 
> Crime rise is biggest in a decade, ONS figures show
> 
> Ministers will also be concerned that the country is becoming increasingly violent in nature, with gun crime rising 23% to 6,375 offences, largely driven by an increase in the use of handguns.
> 
> =========
> 
> 
> 
> Gun crime in London increases by 42% - BBC News
> 
> Gun crime offences in London surged by 42% in the last year, according to official statistics.
> 
> Top trauma surgeon reveals shocking extent of London’s gun crime
> 
> A leading trauma surgeon has told how the number of patients treated for gunshot injuries at a major London hospital has doubled in the last five years.
> 
> ----
> 
> He said the hospital’s major trauma centre had seen a bigger rise in gunshot injuries compared to knife wounds and that the average age of victims was getting younger.
> 
> -----
> 
> Last year, gun crime offences in London increased for a third year running and by 42 per cent, from 1,793 offences in 2015/16 to 2,544 offences in 2016/17. Police have seized 635 guns off the streets so far this year.
> 
> Dr Griffiths, who also teaches medical students, said: “Our numbers of victims of gun injury have doubled [since 2012]. Gunshot injuries represent about 2.5 per cent of our penetrating trauma.
> 
> -----
> 
> Dr Griffiths said the average age of gun crime victims needing treatment at the hospital had decreased from 25 to the mid to late teens since 2012.
> 
> He added that medics at the Barts Health hospital’s major trauma centre in Whitechapel had seen a bigger rise in patients with gun injuries rather than knife wounds and that most were caused by pistols or shotguns.
> 
> Met Police commander Jim Stokley, who was also invited to speak at the meeting, said that handguns and shotguns were the weapons of choice and that 46 per cent of London’s gun crime discharges were gang-related.
> 
> He said: “We believe that a lot of it is associated with the drugs trade, and by that I mean people dealing drugs at street level and disagreements between different gangs.”
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Guns arent banned in the UK. But gun ownership is limited. Thats why our death rates are a fraction of yours. You have lost this argument so many times its laughable.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> No....you are wrong....gun ownership is limited for law abiding citizens...the ones who weren't using them for crime in the first place...but among criminals, gun crime is up 42% in London and up 23% across England and Wales...they obviously didn't get the message that guns are limited.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> their murder rate is FOUR times lower
> but who cares about that/murder/etc?
Click to expand...



Yes.... it was 4 times lower before they banned guns..... you need to show us that gun control effected this...and it obviously didn't.... in fact, you would need to show that gun control not only effected gun murder but that it also effected gun crime.....

You can't because gun crime in Britain is going up...which means the gun control laws are not working.  You can't explain that.

you can't explain why it is that under your argument, you can't explain why gun crime and gun murder in the U.S. has gone down as more Americans own and carry guns, while it is going up in Britain...

We went from 200 million guns in private hands in the 1990s and 4.7 million people carrying guns for self defense in 1997...to close to 400-600 million guns in private hands and over 17.25  million people carrying guns for self defense in 2018...guess what happened...


--* gun murder down 49%*

*--gun crime down 75%*

*--violent crime down 72%*

Gun Homicide Rate Down 49% Since 1993 Peak; Public Unaware

Compared with 1993, the peak of U.S. gun homicides, the firearm homicide rate was 49% lower in 2010, and there were fewer deaths, even though the nation’s population grew. The victimization rate for other violent crimes with a firearm—assaults, robberies and sex crimes—was 75% lower in 2011 than in 1993. Violent non-fatal crime victimization overall (with or without a firearm) also is down markedly (72%) over two decades.





http://


----------



## harmonica

2aguy said:


> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> harmonica said:
> 
> 
> 
> FOUR times lower than the US
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And again, that has nothing to do with their gun control laws....
> 
> Culture of violence: Gun crime goes up by 89% in a decade | Daily Mail Online
> 
> The latest Government figures show that the total number of firearm offences in England and Wales has increased from 5,209 in 1998/99 to 9,865 last year - a rise of 89 per cent.
> 
> The number of people injured or killed by guns, excluding air weapons, has increased from 864 in 1998/99 to a provisional figure of 1,760 in 2008/09, an increase of 104 per cent .
> 
> 
> ========
> 
> 
> 
> Crime rise is biggest in a decade, ONS figures show
> 
> Ministers will also be concerned that the country is becoming increasingly violent in nature, with gun crime rising 23% to 6,375 offences, largely driven by an increase in the use of handguns.
> 
> =========
> 
> 
> 
> Gun crime in London increases by 42% - BBC News
> 
> Gun crime offences in London surged by 42% in the last year, according to official statistics.
> 
> Top trauma surgeon reveals shocking extent of London’s gun crime
> 
> A leading trauma surgeon has told how the number of patients treated for gunshot injuries at a major London hospital has doubled in the last five years.
> 
> ----
> 
> He said the hospital’s major trauma centre had seen a bigger rise in gunshot injuries compared to knife wounds and that the average age of victims was getting younger.
> 
> -----
> 
> Last year, gun crime offences in London increased for a third year running and by 42 per cent, from 1,793 offences in 2015/16 to 2,544 offences in 2016/17. Police have seized 635 guns off the streets so far this year.
> 
> Dr Griffiths, who also teaches medical students, said: “Our numbers of victims of gun injury have doubled [since 2012]. Gunshot injuries represent about 2.5 per cent of our penetrating trauma.
> 
> -----
> 
> Dr Griffiths said the average age of gun crime victims needing treatment at the hospital had decreased from 25 to the mid to late teens since 2012.
> 
> He added that medics at the Barts Health hospital’s major trauma centre in Whitechapel had seen a bigger rise in patients with gun injuries rather than knife wounds and that most were caused by pistols or shotguns.
> 
> Met Police commander Jim Stokley, who was also invited to speak at the meeting, said that handguns and shotguns were the weapons of choice and that 46 per cent of London’s gun crime discharges were gang-related.
> 
> He said: “We believe that a lot of it is associated with the drugs trade, and by that I mean people dealing drugs at street level and disagreements between different gangs.”
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yes, it has A LOT to do with gun control laws.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> It has nothing to do with their gun control laws... their violent crime rates were low before they banned guns, their gun murder rates were low before they banned guns...now?  Their violent crime is sky rocketing, and their gun murder rates didn't change..since British criminals don't commit murder as often......
> 
> Gun control has only added to the violence in Britain as normal, law abiding Brits are helpless in the face of increasingly violent criminals...
> 
> And explain this.....why is it that in the United States.... you can't explain this according to your theory, while my points address all of it....
> 
> We went from 200 million guns in private hands in the 1990s and 4.7 million people carrying guns for self defense in 1997...to close to 400-600 million guns in private hands and over 17.25  million people carrying guns for self defense in 2018...guess what happened...
> 
> 
> --* gun murder down 49%*
> 
> *--gun crime down 75%*
> 
> *--violent crime down 72%*
> 
> Gun Homicide Rate Down 49% Since 1993 Peak; Public Unaware
> 
> Compared with 1993, the peak of U.S. gun homicides, the firearm homicide rate was 49% lower in 2010, and there were fewer deaths, even though the nation’s population grew. The victimization rate for other violent crimes with a firearm—assaults, robberies and sex crimes—was 75% lower in 2011 than in 1993. Violent non-fatal crime victimization overall (with or without a firearm) also is down markedly (72%) over two decades.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://
Click to expand...

you did NOT answer the question: why is UK's murder rate 4 times lower?


----------



## 2aguy

frigidweirdo said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tommy Tainant said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> 
> The point that 2Aguy makes is that he's an absolute fraud and "fake news" reporter.
> 
> No, gun laws don't stop things 100%, who said they do?
> 
> The UK's murder rate is 4 time or more lower than the US's. A rise in crime is inevitable as is a drop in crime at other times. That's what happens in life.
> 
> The fraud is trying to claim that a rise is worse than a drop in crime and murders, REGARDLESS of what the rate is in the first place. This is just ridiculous.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And again, you go to a statistic that is not relevant to the gun control laws in Britain working, since gun crime is going up..which means there are more guns in the hands of criminals in Britain...... that means that if they wanted to murder people with those guns, they could.
> 
> You keep being told over and over again that Britain did not have a high gun murder rate for it's entire history.....that means before they banned guns.   Then, they banned guns and there was a spike in gun murder, and now it has gone down...what didn't go down?   Gun crime...that is up...not down.  You need to distract attention away from that fact.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You're telling me about stuff that's not relevant? Wow, the king of posting totally irrelevant crap.
> 
> No, more gun crime does not equate to more guns in the hands of criminals. That's a ridiculous assertion.
> 
> Yes, if they wanted to murder people, they could. I mean if you had a knife or poison or a car or hands you could also murder people.
> 
> Unfortunately for you and your lunacy, there are no international statistics on the numbers of people who WANT TO MURDER PEOPLE BUT DON'T.
> 
> But thank you for that irrelevant crap anyway.
> 
> So, you're trying to make the argument that gun violence was low before gun control laws were enacted therefore.... therefore... who the fuck knows that comes after therefore. The UK had low numbers of guns before gun control. In 1997 gun control was enacted to stop random mass gun murders, of which there haven't been many while the US has one every month right now.
> 
> So the gun control law works. However you have decided that somehow you either have gun control and it works 100% or you don't have it. You can't have an in between because... because... who the fuck knows what comes after because.
> 
> As for your claim, backed up by not one single statistic, that gun crime didn't go down. Bullshit.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> See here, 2002 gun murders went up, as did murder in general, and then it wen down again. Dropping by more than 50%.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And here's firearms offenses which reached a high in 2006 and then went down too.
> 
> Right, so you've just made up "facts" again, for the umpteenth time. Why do you pull this shit exactly?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> *So the gun control law works. However you have decided that somehow you either have gun control and it works 100% or you don't have it. You can't have an in between because... because... who the fuck knows what comes after because.
> *
> This is pretty much the cornerstone of his bullshit. Refuting claims that have never been made. A rational person reading it would conclude that we need less guns in the UK not more.
> 
> With low gun ownership we have a murder rate that is a fraction of the US with its gun culture. It is impossible to make a coherent argument against that.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Gun ownership doesn't drive the murder rate...criminals deciding to murder their victims drives the murder rate and as we keep showing you, criminals in Britain have guns......lots of guns....they don't use them to murder their victims as often as American criminals do.  You can't make a coherent argument because you can't explain how you have more gun crime in Britain after you banned and confiscated guns...while in America we have less gun crime as more Americans own and actually carry guns.  You go to the British gun murder rate in a desperate attempt to hide your inability to explain more gun crime, but as we show you that Britain had a low gun murder rate before they banned guns, you can't explain the increase in gun crime...so you keep hyping the already low gun murder rate as an indication that gun control is working....
> 
> Since British criminals are using guns more often, not less....gun control is not working...since the point is to keep guns out of the hands of criminals....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Gun ownership itself doesn't drive murder. There's far more to it than that.
> 
> Easy availability of guns is one massive factor here. It's the difference between having a gun and using it freely, and having a gun and protecting it.
> 
> The inability of US politicians to actually give a fuck about sorting out social problems is another reason why guns exacerbate already bad problems.
> 
> The problem here is you don't understand Britain's gun bans and how they worked. So you're pretending there were lots of guns and then all of a sudden there weren't lots of guns. It never worked like that.
> 
> Guns have never been totally banned. Over a period of time guns have been more limited. In 1997 handguns were banned. It wasn't like many people actually had handguns in the first place. The ban didn't impact many people. So it wasn't actually much of a watershed moment for guns at all. Had handguns not been banned, not much would have changed.
> 
> I can explain the increase in gun crime. Guns can get into the UK because the UK has a massive coastline. However guns are not easily available.
> 
> With the prevalence of US TV shows, some kids think it's cool to get guns. There was a short period of time where gun crime increased for a period of about two months. It was caused by young kids using guns as if they were in the US. For the police it was a problem, but they were able to deal with this situation because they could mop up the guns, and then they can't easily get more.
> 
> But you keep going out of your way to attack me and leave yourself open to ridicule when you say stuff that is based on ignorance.
Click to expand...


Wrong... you can't explain how Britain's gun ban worked because their gun murder rate didn't go down....and their gun crime rate went up...

You have no change in the gun murder rate and you have more gun crime...after the ban... you can't explain that.

You can't explain how the gun murder rate, the gun crime rate and the violent crime rate went down in the U.S. after more Americans, not less, own and carry guns.....

Britain can't keep guns out and they are an island..... Australia can't keep guns out and they are an island...and you think with the Mexican drug cartels setting up gun making factories on our border with hundreds of miles of open border that we would be able to keep guns out of our country?

You have no argument... your arguments are not supported by the facts or the realities of gun control....you have nothing...


----------



## JLW

2aguy said:


> harmonica said:
> 
> 
> 
> FOUR times lower than the US
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And again, that has nothing to do with their gun control laws....
> 
> Culture of violence: Gun crime goes up by 89% in a decade | Daily Mail Online
> 
> The latest Government figures show that the total number of firearm offences in England and Wales has increased from 5,209 in 1998/99 to 9,865 last year - a rise of 89 per cent.
> 
> The number of people injured or killed by guns, excluding air weapons, has increased from 864 in 1998/99 to a provisional figure of 1,760 in 2008/09, an increase of 104 per cent .
> 
> 
> ========
> 
> 
> 
> Crime rise is biggest in a decade, ONS figures show
> 
> Ministers will also be concerned that the country is becoming increasingly violent in nature, with gun crime rising 23% to 6,375 offences, largely driven by an increase in the use of handguns.
> 
> =========
> 
> 
> 
> Gun crime in London increases by 42% - BBC News
> 
> Gun crime offences in London surged by 42% in the last year, according to official statistics.
> 
> Top trauma surgeon reveals shocking extent of London’s gun crime
> 
> A leading trauma surgeon has told how the number of patients treated for gunshot injuries at a major London hospital has doubled in the last five years.
> 
> ----
> 
> He said the hospital’s major trauma centre had seen a bigger rise in gunshot injuries compared to knife wounds and that the average age of victims was getting younger.
> 
> -----
> 
> Last year, gun crime offences in London increased for a third year running and by 42 per cent, from 1,793 offences in 2015/16 to 2,544 offences in 2016/17. Police have seized 635 guns off the streets so far this year.
> 
> Dr Griffiths, who also teaches medical students, said: “Our numbers of victims of gun injury have doubled [since 2012]. Gunshot injuries represent about 2.5 per cent of our penetrating trauma.
> 
> -----
> 
> Dr Griffiths said the average age of gun crime victims needing treatment at the hospital had decreased from 25 to the mid to late teens since 2012.
> 
> He added that medics at the Barts Health hospital’s major trauma centre in Whitechapel had seen a bigger rise in patients with gun injuries rather than knife wounds and that most were caused by pistols or shotguns.
> 
> Met Police commander Jim Stokley, who was also invited to speak at the meeting, said that handguns and shotguns were the weapons of choice and that 46 per cent of London’s gun crime discharges were gang-related.
> 
> He said: “We believe that a lot of it is associated with the drugs trade, and by that I mean people dealing drugs at street level and disagreements between different gangs.”
Click to expand...

So,  just had to read your link about the Top Trauma Surgeon "shocked" by gun violence.

The first thing I noticed was you edited the first paragraph.  The first paragraph state that the number of gun shot victims was 50 or 60 for the *year* to date, the date being Oct 1.  They get that many gun shot victims a day in some American cities.

What a joke. When the Cons talk about gun violence going up in Britain it is from a very small number which they ignore or deceive about in their posts.


----------



## 2aguy

frigidweirdo said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yes...you are another one who hides the failure of gun control laws in Britain by focusing on gun murder which has never been a major problem in Britain, since their criminals didn't do it...even before they banned guns.   You have to hide the fact that gun crime, the illegal use of guns in the commission of violent crimes against unarmed citizens, is increasing...
> 
> And if the criminals have the guns in increasing numbers, what gun control law is stopping them from walking into a church, a school or a mall?  And which gun control law keeps them from pulling the trigger and aiming at the head or chest instead of the leg?
> 
> Please explain how that works.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Easy availability of guns means that criminals value their weapons less, which means they're more likely to use them.
> 
> Whereas in the UK a criminal might be able to get a gun, or might not, it might cost them more and it might be more of a struggle to get another one.
> 
> Also that gun warfare isn't prevalent means guns are often used as a means of scaring people, rather than actually having to use them.
> 
> But then again, I showed you the murder rate in the US and the UK compared in a chart, and somehow you believe this is me "focusing on gun murder".
> 
> Another one of your inabilities to know what people are talking about in your desire to "win" of get what you want regardless of the truth.
> 
> UK gun control laws are not a failure. They're also not 100% effective, but what laws are?
> 
> But the UK gun murder rate is massively low, it's murder rate isn't high. It's a success.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> You think that criminals are not getting more guns now?    Your post has no bearing on the fact that Britain's criminals are getting more guns... you only focus on gun murder since that hasn't changed in Britain, except for the massive spike immediately after they banned guns.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You want to show that criminals are getting more guns now. Then prove it. Until then I call bullshit on your fake crap.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Here......a history of increasing gun crime in Britain after they banned guns...
> 
> Culture of violence: Gun crime goes up by 89% in a decade | Daily Mail Online
> 
> The latest Government figures show that the total number of firearm offences in England and Wales has increased from 5,209 in 1998/99 to 9,865 last year - a rise of 89 per cent.
> 
> *The number of people injured or killed by guns, excluding air weapons, has increased from 864 in 1998/99 to a provisional figure of 1,760 in 2008/09, an increase of 104 per cent . *
> 
> 
> ========
> 
> 
> 
> Crime rise is biggest in a decade, ONS figures show
> 
> Ministers will also be concerned that the country is becoming increasingly violent in nature, with gun crime rising 23% to 6,375 offences, largely driven by an increase in the use of handguns.
> 
> =========
> 
> 
> 
> Gun crime in London increases by 42% - BBC News
> 
> Gun crime offences in London surged by 42% in the last year, according to official statistics.
> 
> Top trauma surgeon reveals shocking extent of London’s gun crime
> 
> A leading trauma surgeon has told how the number of patients treated for gunshot injuries at a major London hospital has doubled in the last five years.
> 
> ----
> 
> He said the hospital’s major trauma centre had seen a bigger rise in gunshot injuries compared to knife wounds and that the average age of victims was getting younger.
> 
> -----
> 
> Last year, gun crime offences in London increased for a third year running and by 42 per cent, from 1,793 offences in 2015/16 to 2,544 offences in 2016/17. Police have seized 635 guns off the streets so far this year.
> 
> Dr Griffiths, who also teaches medical students, said: “Our numbers of victims of gun injury have doubled [since 2012]. Gunshot injuries represent about 2.5 per cent of our penetrating trauma.
> 
> -----
> 
> Dr Griffiths said the average age of gun crime victims needing treatment at the hospital had decreased from 25 to the mid to late teens since 2012.
> 
> He added that medics at the Barts Health hospital’s major trauma centre in Whitechapel had seen a bigger rise in patients with gun injuries rather than knife wounds and that most were caused by pistols or shotguns.
> 
> Met Police commander Jim Stokley, who was also invited to speak at the meeting, said that handguns and shotguns were the weapons of choice and that 46 per cent of London’s gun crime discharges were gang-related.
> 
> He said: “We believe that a lot of it is associated with the drugs trade, and by that I mean people dealing drugs at street level and disagreements between different gangs.”
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Right, so you need someone to explain it for you? You can't do it yourself?
> 
> The Daily Mail is a right wing newspaper that aims to sell with sensationalism.
> 
> Also I showed you statistics which tell us that gun violence hit a high in 2006 and then dropped.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Also the Daily Mail is being deliberately dishonest, what a surprise. Had they gone from 1993 to 2009 they'd have seen gun crime rose only slightly in that time, from about 7.75 to 8.2 according to this chart.
> 
> But they wanted to bash the Labour Party. The problem is, it was the Tories' lack of investment in the police, in social problems etc that caused this. It just took a bit of time for it to come about.
> 
> The same thing is happening now. They've been in power 8 years, crime is rising again, police funding is dropping, social problems funding is dropping too.
> 
> Labour took over and had everything going down by the time they left office.
> 
> But you carry on being dishonest and ignorant of the UK.
Click to expand...



The Tories can't invest in the police because the social welfare state has drained all the money....and the left wingers in Britain are now doing the same thing to the British police that our democrat party is doing to the police here in the States...they call them racists...they call them thugs....and they are the ones cutting their funding, manpower and tying their hands with politically correct policies that keep them from stopping gun criminals....

British police ‘still institutionally racist’, senior officer admits as new recruitment strategy launched

British policing is still “institutionally racist”, a senior police officer has admitted while launching a drive to boost the number of recruits from minority groups.

Chief Constable Gareth Wilson, the national lead for diversity, equality and inclusion, told _The Independent _the service has “come on leaps and bounds” in recent years but there is more work left to do.


----------



## harmonica

answer the question:
why is UK's murder rate 4 times lower?
or France's/Germany's?


----------



## miketx

Johnlaw said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> harmonica said:
> 
> 
> 
> FOUR times lower than the US
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And again, that has nothing to do with their gun control laws....
> 
> Culture of violence: Gun crime goes up by 89% in a decade | Daily Mail Online
> 
> The latest Government figures show that the total number of firearm offences in England and Wales has increased from 5,209 in 1998/99 to 9,865 last year - a rise of 89 per cent.
> 
> The number of people injured or killed by guns, excluding air weapons, has increased from 864 in 1998/99 to a provisional figure of 1,760 in 2008/09, an increase of 104 per cent .
> 
> 
> ========
> 
> 
> 
> Crime rise is biggest in a decade, ONS figures show
> 
> Ministers will also be concerned that the country is becoming increasingly violent in nature, with gun crime rising 23% to 6,375 offences, largely driven by an increase in the use of handguns.
> 
> =========
> 
> 
> 
> Gun crime in London increases by 42% - BBC News
> 
> Gun crime offences in London surged by 42% in the last year, according to official statistics.
> 
> Top trauma surgeon reveals shocking extent of London’s gun crime
> 
> A leading trauma surgeon has told how the number of patients treated for gunshot injuries at a major London hospital has doubled in the last five years.
> 
> ----
> 
> He said the hospital’s major trauma centre had seen a bigger rise in gunshot injuries compared to knife wounds and that the average age of victims was getting younger.
> 
> -----
> 
> Last year, gun crime offences in London increased for a third year running and by 42 per cent, from 1,793 offences in 2015/16 to 2,544 offences in 2016/17. Police have seized 635 guns off the streets so far this year.
> 
> Dr Griffiths, who also teaches medical students, said: “Our numbers of victims of gun injury have doubled [since 2012]. Gunshot injuries represent about 2.5 per cent of our penetrating trauma.
> 
> -----
> 
> Dr Griffiths said the average age of gun crime victims needing treatment at the hospital had decreased from 25 to the mid to late teens since 2012.
> 
> He added that medics at the Barts Health hospital’s major trauma centre in Whitechapel had seen a bigger rise in patients with gun injuries rather than knife wounds and that most were caused by pistols or shotguns.
> 
> Met Police commander Jim Stokley, who was also invited to speak at the meeting, said that handguns and shotguns were the weapons of choice and that 46 per cent of London’s gun crime discharges were gang-related.
> 
> He said: “We believe that a lot of it is associated with the drugs trade, and by that I mean people dealing drugs at street level and disagreements between different gangs.”
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> So,  just had to read your link about the Top Trauma Surgeon "shocked" by gun violence.
> 
> The first thing I noticed was you edited the first paragraph.  The first paragraph state that the number of gun shot victims was 50 or 60 for the *year* to date, the date being Oct 1.  They get that many gun shot victims a day in some American cities.
> 
> What a joke. When the Cons talk about gun violence going up it is from a very small number which they ignore or deceive about in their posts.
Click to expand...

Our crime would be a lot lower if liberals would stop plea bargains, early release, and paroles for violent scum, but they won't


----------



## 2aguy

Johnlaw said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> harmonica said:
> 
> 
> 
> FOUR times lower than the US
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And again, that has nothing to do with their gun control laws....
> 
> Culture of violence: Gun crime goes up by 89% in a decade | Daily Mail Online
> 
> The latest Government figures show that the total number of firearm offences in England and Wales has increased from 5,209 in 1998/99 to 9,865 last year - a rise of 89 per cent.
> 
> The number of people injured or killed by guns, excluding air weapons, has increased from 864 in 1998/99 to a provisional figure of 1,760 in 2008/09, an increase of 104 per cent .
> 
> 
> ========
> 
> 
> 
> Crime rise is biggest in a decade, ONS figures show
> 
> Ministers will also be concerned that the country is becoming increasingly violent in nature, with gun crime rising 23% to 6,375 offences, largely driven by an increase in the use of handguns.
> 
> =========
> 
> 
> 
> Gun crime in London increases by 42% - BBC News
> 
> Gun crime offences in London surged by 42% in the last year, according to official statistics.
> 
> Top trauma surgeon reveals shocking extent of London’s gun crime
> 
> A leading trauma surgeon has told how the number of patients treated for gunshot injuries at a major London hospital has doubled in the last five years.
> 
> ----
> 
> He said the hospital’s major trauma centre had seen a bigger rise in gunshot injuries compared to knife wounds and that the average age of victims was getting younger.
> 
> -----
> 
> Last year, gun crime offences in London increased for a third year running and by 42 per cent, from 1,793 offences in 2015/16 to 2,544 offences in 2016/17. Police have seized 635 guns off the streets so far this year.
> 
> Dr Griffiths, who also teaches medical students, said: “Our numbers of victims of gun injury have doubled [since 2012]. Gunshot injuries represent about 2.5 per cent of our penetrating trauma.
> 
> -----
> 
> Dr Griffiths said the average age of gun crime victims needing treatment at the hospital had decreased from 25 to the mid to late teens since 2012.
> 
> He added that medics at the Barts Health hospital’s major trauma centre in Whitechapel had seen a bigger rise in patients with gun injuries rather than knife wounds and that most were caused by pistols or shotguns.
> 
> Met Police commander Jim Stokley, who was also invited to speak at the meeting, said that handguns and shotguns were the weapons of choice and that 46 per cent of London’s gun crime discharges were gang-related.
> 
> He said: “We believe that a lot of it is associated with the drugs trade, and by that I mean people dealing drugs at street level and disagreements between different gangs.”
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> So,  just had to read your link about the Top Trauma Surgeon "shocked" by gun violence.
> 
> The first thing I noticed was you edited the first paragraph.  The first paragraph state that the number of gun shot victims was 50 or 60 for the *year* to date, the date being Oct 1.  They get that many gun shot victims a day in some American cities.
> 
> What a joke. When the Cons talk about gun violence going up it is from a very small number which they ignore or deceive about in their posts.
Click to expand...



Yes....as you can see by every single post I make, I state that gun murder in Britain has always been low......long before they banned guns....   I also state that the culture of British criminals does not include murder of victims as easily or often as American criminals......   I also show that gun crimes are increasing....they have illegal guns, and use them for crime, which means that if gun crime is increasing, their gun control laws are not working......since the point of gun control is to reduce gun crime.......

Britain is at the point the United States was at in the 1950s going into the 1960s.......their social welfare systems have finally managed to create fatherless homes, where young, teenage girls are raising young males without fathers  to help them become young men...the only role models are now criminals and music stars, including rap.....

Their murder rate is going up, their crime rate is through the roof, and their gun crime is going up....

They are also using the left wing belief system that criminals can be released into society without consequences......and so they are becoming bolder and less afraid of their police...

Thousands of violent and sexual crime suspects released without conditions

Thousands of suspects in violent and sexual crimes have been released without conditions since changes to police bail came into effect, it has been reported.

More than 3,000 people were released under investigation for offences such as murder and rape by 12 police forces over a three-month period, according to the BBC.

Figures released to the broadcaster under the Freedom of Information Act, covering April to June 2017, found these included 1,692 people arrested for violent crimes, 768 rape suspects and 31 questioned on suspicion of murder.



If you can't see that, you are blind.


----------



## 2aguy

harmonica said:


> answer the question:
> why is UK's murder rate 4 times lower?
> or France's/Germany's?




I answer that all the time.....World War 1 and 2 destroyed those countries, and drained millions of young men from their countries......   They are behind the United States in every way until now...they are catching up to the destruction of the family...which is creating violent sociopaths.

Their criminals do not use their illegal guns to murder as often or as easily as American criminals....due to cultural factors, not gun control.

What part of the fact that gun crime is going up in Britain is beyond you to understand....?  They are getting illegal guns in larger numbers...they need them, especially their 3rd world drug gangs, to control their drug territories....they just do not use them to murder...as I highlight in most of these posts...they shoot the legs, not to the chest or the head when they shoot...a cultural difference and even that is changing....

Read the book, "Life at the Bottom," because it shows how their welfare system and bureaucratic mess is creating the exact same situation you see in our violent, democrat controlled cities....and they are just getting there...while we were there back in the 1960s, since our country was untouched by the destruction of World war 1 and 2....


----------



## miketx

2aguy said:


> Johnlaw said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> harmonica said:
> 
> 
> 
> FOUR times lower than the US
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And again, that has nothing to do with their gun control laws....
> 
> Culture of violence: Gun crime goes up by 89% in a decade | Daily Mail Online
> 
> The latest Government figures show that the total number of firearm offences in England and Wales has increased from 5,209 in 1998/99 to 9,865 last year - a rise of 89 per cent.
> 
> The number of people injured or killed by guns, excluding air weapons, has increased from 864 in 1998/99 to a provisional figure of 1,760 in 2008/09, an increase of 104 per cent .
> 
> 
> ========
> 
> 
> 
> Crime rise is biggest in a decade, ONS figures show
> 
> Ministers will also be concerned that the country is becoming increasingly violent in nature, with gun crime rising 23% to 6,375 offences, largely driven by an increase in the use of handguns.
> 
> =========
> 
> 
> 
> Gun crime in London increases by 42% - BBC News
> 
> Gun crime offences in London surged by 42% in the last year, according to official statistics.
> 
> Top trauma surgeon reveals shocking extent of London’s gun crime
> 
> A leading trauma surgeon has told how the number of patients treated for gunshot injuries at a major London hospital has doubled in the last five years.
> 
> ----
> 
> He said the hospital’s major trauma centre had seen a bigger rise in gunshot injuries compared to knife wounds and that the average age of victims was getting younger.
> 
> -----
> 
> Last year, gun crime offences in London increased for a third year running and by 42 per cent, from 1,793 offences in 2015/16 to 2,544 offences in 2016/17. Police have seized 635 guns off the streets so far this year.
> 
> Dr Griffiths, who also teaches medical students, said: “Our numbers of victims of gun injury have doubled [since 2012]. Gunshot injuries represent about 2.5 per cent of our penetrating trauma.
> 
> -----
> 
> Dr Griffiths said the average age of gun crime victims needing treatment at the hospital had decreased from 25 to the mid to late teens since 2012.
> 
> He added that medics at the Barts Health hospital’s major trauma centre in Whitechapel had seen a bigger rise in patients with gun injuries rather than knife wounds and that most were caused by pistols or shotguns.
> 
> Met Police commander Jim Stokley, who was also invited to speak at the meeting, said that handguns and shotguns were the weapons of choice and that 46 per cent of London’s gun crime discharges were gang-related.
> 
> He said: “We believe that a lot of it is associated with the drugs trade, and by that I mean people dealing drugs at street level and disagreements between different gangs.”
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> So,  just had to read your link about the Top Trauma Surgeon "shocked" by gun violence.
> 
> The first thing I noticed was you edited the first paragraph.  The first paragraph state that the number of gun shot victims was 50 or 60 for the *year* to date, the date being Oct 1.  They get that many gun shot victims a day in some American cities.
> 
> What a joke. When the Cons talk about gun violence going up it is from a very small number which they ignore or deceive about in their posts.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Yes....as you can see by every single post I make, I state that gun murder in Britain has always been low......long before they banned guns....   I also state that the culture of British criminals does not include murder of victims as easily or often as American criminals......   I also show that gun crimes are increasing....they have illegal guns, and use them for crime, which means that if gun crime is increasing, their gun control laws are not working......since the point of gun control is to reduce gun crime.......
> 
> Britain is at the point the United States was at in the 1950s going into the 1960s.......their social welfare systems have finally managed to create fatherless homes, where young, teenage girls are raising young males without fathers  to help them become young men...the only role models are now criminals and music stars, including rap.....
> 
> Their murder rate is going up, their crime rate is through the roof, and their gun crime is going up....
> 
> If you can't see that, you are blind.
Click to expand...

He/they and them do not want to see it.


----------



## Tommy Tainant

2aguy said:


> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tommy Tainant said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> 
> You want to show that criminals are getting more guns now. Then prove it. Until then I call bullshit on your fake crap.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here......a history of increasing gun crime in Britain after they banned guns...
> 
> Culture of violence: Gun crime goes up by 89% in a decade | Daily Mail Online
> 
> The latest Government figures show that the total number of firearm offences in England and Wales has increased from 5,209 in 1998/99 to 9,865 last year - a rise of 89 per cent.
> 
> *The number of people injured or killed by guns, excluding air weapons, has increased from 864 in 1998/99 to a provisional figure of 1,760 in 2008/09, an increase of 104 per cent . *
> 
> 
> ========
> 
> 
> 
> Crime rise is biggest in a decade, ONS figures show
> 
> Ministers will also be concerned that the country is becoming increasingly violent in nature, with gun crime rising 23% to 6,375 offences, largely driven by an increase in the use of handguns.
> 
> =========
> 
> 
> 
> Gun crime in London increases by 42% - BBC News
> 
> Gun crime offences in London surged by 42% in the last year, according to official statistics.
> 
> Top trauma surgeon reveals shocking extent of London’s gun crime
> 
> A leading trauma surgeon has told how the number of patients treated for gunshot injuries at a major London hospital has doubled in the last five years.
> 
> ----
> 
> He said the hospital’s major trauma centre had seen a bigger rise in gunshot injuries compared to knife wounds and that the average age of victims was getting younger.
> 
> -----
> 
> Last year, gun crime offences in London increased for a third year running and by 42 per cent, from 1,793 offences in 2015/16 to 2,544 offences in 2016/17. Police have seized 635 guns off the streets so far this year.
> 
> Dr Griffiths, who also teaches medical students, said: “Our numbers of victims of gun injury have doubled [since 2012]. Gunshot injuries represent about 2.5 per cent of our penetrating trauma.
> 
> -----
> 
> Dr Griffiths said the average age of gun crime victims needing treatment at the hospital had decreased from 25 to the mid to late teens since 2012.
> 
> He added that medics at the Barts Health hospital’s major trauma centre in Whitechapel had seen a bigger rise in patients with gun injuries rather than knife wounds and that most were caused by pistols or shotguns.
> 
> Met Police commander Jim Stokley, who was also invited to speak at the meeting, said that handguns and shotguns were the weapons of choice and that 46 per cent of London’s gun crime discharges were gang-related.
> 
> He said: “We believe that a lot of it is associated with the drugs trade, and by that I mean people dealing drugs at street level and disagreements between different gangs.”
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Guns arent banned in the UK. But gun ownership is limited. Thats why our death rates are a fraction of yours. You have lost this argument so many times its laughable.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> No....you are wrong....gun ownership is limited for law abiding citizens...the ones who weren't using them for crime in the first place...but among criminals, gun crime is up 42% in London and up 23% across England and Wales...they obviously didn't get the message that guns are limited.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Guns are limited, "law abiding people" can have guns too.
> 
> Crime is up. You've been told why crime is up, because of the right wing government in power.
> 
> But crime is up, and still MASSIVELY LOWER THAN IN THE USA.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Yes......criminals are getting guns because they need them to support their drug business.....and as the left wing socialists use all the money for social welfare programs, the first groups that get hit are law enforcement....which the socially active left wingers attack as racist and out of control....allowing their manpower to be cut, their resources to be cut and their effectiveness to be cut because of politically correct policies.....
> 
> Gun ownership in Britain is reserved for the rich..... those who can own the tiny number of hunting shotguns for shooting game on their estates...meanwhile....the nurse coming home on the tube gets dragged into a park and gang raped because she can't have a gun to defend herself....the senior citizen living in public housing gets beaten and tortured by the feral youths, raised on welfare, without fathers.......
> 
> Crime is going up in Britain.....a lot...their social welfare system has finally reached the point of no return....
Click to expand...

Your mythical nurse is four times safer in gon control UK. In the US she could be shot on the tube.Shot at the convenience store. Shot when she stops to llight a candle,shot if she has a beer befoe picking u her kids who have been shot at in school.

You are a fuckin muppet.


----------



## 2aguy

Tommy Tainant said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tommy Tainant said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Here......a history of increasing gun crime in Britain after they banned guns...
> 
> Culture of violence: Gun crime goes up by 89% in a decade | Daily Mail Online
> 
> The latest Government figures show that the total number of firearm offences in England and Wales has increased from 5,209 in 1998/99 to 9,865 last year - a rise of 89 per cent.
> 
> *The number of people injured or killed by guns, excluding air weapons, has increased from 864 in 1998/99 to a provisional figure of 1,760 in 2008/09, an increase of 104 per cent . *
> 
> 
> ========
> 
> 
> 
> Crime rise is biggest in a decade, ONS figures show
> 
> Ministers will also be concerned that the country is becoming increasingly violent in nature, with gun crime rising 23% to 6,375 offences, largely driven by an increase in the use of handguns.
> 
> =========
> 
> 
> 
> Gun crime in London increases by 42% - BBC News
> 
> Gun crime offences in London surged by 42% in the last year, according to official statistics.
> 
> Top trauma surgeon reveals shocking extent of London’s gun crime
> 
> A leading trauma surgeon has told how the number of patients treated for gunshot injuries at a major London hospital has doubled in the last five years.
> 
> ----
> 
> He said the hospital’s major trauma centre had seen a bigger rise in gunshot injuries compared to knife wounds and that the average age of victims was getting younger.
> 
> -----
> 
> Last year, gun crime offences in London increased for a third year running and by 42 per cent, from 1,793 offences in 2015/16 to 2,544 offences in 2016/17. Police have seized 635 guns off the streets so far this year.
> 
> Dr Griffiths, who also teaches medical students, said: “Our numbers of victims of gun injury have doubled [since 2012]. Gunshot injuries represent about 2.5 per cent of our penetrating trauma.
> 
> -----
> 
> Dr Griffiths said the average age of gun crime victims needing treatment at the hospital had decreased from 25 to the mid to late teens since 2012.
> 
> He added that medics at the Barts Health hospital’s major trauma centre in Whitechapel had seen a bigger rise in patients with gun injuries rather than knife wounds and that most were caused by pistols or shotguns.
> 
> Met Police commander Jim Stokley, who was also invited to speak at the meeting, said that handguns and shotguns were the weapons of choice and that 46 per cent of London’s gun crime discharges were gang-related.
> 
> He said: “We believe that a lot of it is associated with the drugs trade, and by that I mean people dealing drugs at street level and disagreements between different gangs.”
> 
> 
> 
> Guns arent banned in the UK. But gun ownership is limited. Thats why our death rates are a fraction of yours. You have lost this argument so many times its laughable.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> No....you are wrong....gun ownership is limited for law abiding citizens...the ones who weren't using them for crime in the first place...but among criminals, gun crime is up 42% in London and up 23% across England and Wales...they obviously didn't get the message that guns are limited.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Guns are limited, "law abiding people" can have guns too.
> 
> Crime is up. You've been told why crime is up, because of the right wing government in power.
> 
> But crime is up, and still MASSIVELY LOWER THAN IN THE USA.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Yes......criminals are getting guns because they need them to support their drug business.....and as the left wing socialists use all the money for social welfare programs, the first groups that get hit are law enforcement....which the socially active left wingers attack as racist and out of control....allowing their manpower to be cut, their resources to be cut and their effectiveness to be cut because of politically correct policies.....
> 
> Gun ownership in Britain is reserved for the rich..... those who can own the tiny number of hunting shotguns for shooting game on their estates...meanwhile....the nurse coming home on the tube gets dragged into a park and gang raped because she can't have a gun to defend herself....the senior citizen living in public housing gets beaten and tortured by the feral youths, raised on welfare, without fathers.......
> 
> Crime is going up in Britain.....a lot...their social welfare system has finally reached the point of no return....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Your mythical nurse is four times safer in gon control UK. In the US she could be shot on the tube.Shot at the convenience store. Shot when she stops to llight a candle,shot if she has a beer befoe picking u her kids who have been shot at in school.
> 
> You are a fuckin muppet.
Click to expand...



Wrong..... our gun crime is confined to very tiny, democrat party controlled areas in our cities.....anywhere else and our country is as safe if not safer than places in Europe....Britain has more violent crime and rape than we do....


----------



## 2aguy

Tommy Tainant said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tommy Tainant said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Here......a history of increasing gun crime in Britain after they banned guns...
> 
> Culture of violence: Gun crime goes up by 89% in a decade | Daily Mail Online
> 
> The latest Government figures show that the total number of firearm offences in England and Wales has increased from 5,209 in 1998/99 to 9,865 last year - a rise of 89 per cent.
> 
> *The number of people injured or killed by guns, excluding air weapons, has increased from 864 in 1998/99 to a provisional figure of 1,760 in 2008/09, an increase of 104 per cent . *
> 
> 
> ========
> 
> 
> 
> Crime rise is biggest in a decade, ONS figures show
> 
> Ministers will also be concerned that the country is becoming increasingly violent in nature, with gun crime rising 23% to 6,375 offences, largely driven by an increase in the use of handguns.
> 
> =========
> 
> 
> 
> Gun crime in London increases by 42% - BBC News
> 
> Gun crime offences in London surged by 42% in the last year, according to official statistics.
> 
> Top trauma surgeon reveals shocking extent of London’s gun crime
> 
> A leading trauma surgeon has told how the number of patients treated for gunshot injuries at a major London hospital has doubled in the last five years.
> 
> ----
> 
> He said the hospital’s major trauma centre had seen a bigger rise in gunshot injuries compared to knife wounds and that the average age of victims was getting younger.
> 
> -----
> 
> Last year, gun crime offences in London increased for a third year running and by 42 per cent, from 1,793 offences in 2015/16 to 2,544 offences in 2016/17. Police have seized 635 guns off the streets so far this year.
> 
> Dr Griffiths, who also teaches medical students, said: “Our numbers of victims of gun injury have doubled [since 2012]. Gunshot injuries represent about 2.5 per cent of our penetrating trauma.
> 
> -----
> 
> Dr Griffiths said the average age of gun crime victims needing treatment at the hospital had decreased from 25 to the mid to late teens since 2012.
> 
> He added that medics at the Barts Health hospital’s major trauma centre in Whitechapel had seen a bigger rise in patients with gun injuries rather than knife wounds and that most were caused by pistols or shotguns.
> 
> Met Police commander Jim Stokley, who was also invited to speak at the meeting, said that handguns and shotguns were the weapons of choice and that 46 per cent of London’s gun crime discharges were gang-related.
> 
> He said: “We believe that a lot of it is associated with the drugs trade, and by that I mean people dealing drugs at street level and disagreements between different gangs.”
> 
> 
> 
> Guns arent banned in the UK. But gun ownership is limited. Thats why our death rates are a fraction of yours. You have lost this argument so many times its laughable.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> No....you are wrong....gun ownership is limited for law abiding citizens...the ones who weren't using them for crime in the first place...but among criminals, gun crime is up 42% in London and up 23% across England and Wales...they obviously didn't get the message that guns are limited.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Guns are limited, "law abiding people" can have guns too.
> 
> Crime is up. You've been told why crime is up, because of the right wing government in power.
> 
> But crime is up, and still MASSIVELY LOWER THAN IN THE USA.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Yes......criminals are getting guns because they need them to support their drug business.....and as the left wing socialists use all the money for social welfare programs, the first groups that get hit are law enforcement....which the socially active left wingers attack as racist and out of control....allowing their manpower to be cut, their resources to be cut and their effectiveness to be cut because of politically correct policies.....
> 
> Gun ownership in Britain is reserved for the rich..... those who can own the tiny number of hunting shotguns for shooting game on their estates...meanwhile....the nurse coming home on the tube gets dragged into a park and gang raped because she can't have a gun to defend herself....the senior citizen living in public housing gets beaten and tortured by the feral youths, raised on welfare, without fathers.......
> 
> Crime is going up in Britain.....a lot...their social welfare system has finally reached the point of no return....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Your mythical nurse is four times safer in gon control UK. In the US she could be shot on the tube.Shot at the convenience store. Shot when she stops to llight a candle,shot if she has a beer befoe picking u her kids who have been shot at in school.
> 
> You are a fuckin muppet.
Click to expand...


What mythical nurse?

Dr. Rowell Huesmann criticized private gun ownership while speaking to President Donald Trump’s Federal Commission on School Safety. Afterward, he released written notes in which he admitted the level of rape in gun-free U.K. is higher than in the U.S.

He wrote:

A comparison of the frequency of types of violence in the United States and the United Kingdom is illuminating in this regard. Contrary to what many think, well done studies have shown that the risk of being violently victimized in the United Kingdom has been higher than in the United States for most years since about 1995. That is true for assault, robbery, rape, and many other violent crimes, but it is not true of homicide, of firearm assault, or school shootings. Obviously, weapon availability makes a difference.



Psychologist Bemoans U.S. Gun Ownership, Admits Higher Level of Rape in Gun-Free U.K. | Breitbart


----------



## 2aguy

Tommy Tainant said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tommy Tainant said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Here......a history of increasing gun crime in Britain after they banned guns...
> 
> Culture of violence: Gun crime goes up by 89% in a decade | Daily Mail Online
> 
> The latest Government figures show that the total number of firearm offences in England and Wales has increased from 5,209 in 1998/99 to 9,865 last year - a rise of 89 per cent.
> 
> *The number of people injured or killed by guns, excluding air weapons, has increased from 864 in 1998/99 to a provisional figure of 1,760 in 2008/09, an increase of 104 per cent . *
> 
> 
> ========
> 
> 
> 
> Crime rise is biggest in a decade, ONS figures show
> 
> Ministers will also be concerned that the country is becoming increasingly violent in nature, with gun crime rising 23% to 6,375 offences, largely driven by an increase in the use of handguns.
> 
> =========
> 
> 
> 
> Gun crime in London increases by 42% - BBC News
> 
> Gun crime offences in London surged by 42% in the last year, according to official statistics.
> 
> Top trauma surgeon reveals shocking extent of London’s gun crime
> 
> A leading trauma surgeon has told how the number of patients treated for gunshot injuries at a major London hospital has doubled in the last five years.
> 
> ----
> 
> He said the hospital’s major trauma centre had seen a bigger rise in gunshot injuries compared to knife wounds and that the average age of victims was getting younger.
> 
> -----
> 
> Last year, gun crime offences in London increased for a third year running and by 42 per cent, from 1,793 offences in 2015/16 to 2,544 offences in 2016/17. Police have seized 635 guns off the streets so far this year.
> 
> Dr Griffiths, who also teaches medical students, said: “Our numbers of victims of gun injury have doubled [since 2012]. Gunshot injuries represent about 2.5 per cent of our penetrating trauma.
> 
> -----
> 
> Dr Griffiths said the average age of gun crime victims needing treatment at the hospital had decreased from 25 to the mid to late teens since 2012.
> 
> He added that medics at the Barts Health hospital’s major trauma centre in Whitechapel had seen a bigger rise in patients with gun injuries rather than knife wounds and that most were caused by pistols or shotguns.
> 
> Met Police commander Jim Stokley, who was also invited to speak at the meeting, said that handguns and shotguns were the weapons of choice and that 46 per cent of London’s gun crime discharges were gang-related.
> 
> He said: “We believe that a lot of it is associated with the drugs trade, and by that I mean people dealing drugs at street level and disagreements between different gangs.”
> 
> 
> 
> Guns arent banned in the UK. But gun ownership is limited. Thats why our death rates are a fraction of yours. You have lost this argument so many times its laughable.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> No....you are wrong....gun ownership is limited for law abiding citizens...the ones who weren't using them for crime in the first place...but among criminals, gun crime is up 42% in London and up 23% across England and Wales...they obviously didn't get the message that guns are limited.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Guns are limited, "law abiding people" can have guns too.
> 
> Crime is up. You've been told why crime is up, because of the right wing government in power.
> 
> But crime is up, and still MASSIVELY LOWER THAN IN THE USA.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Yes......criminals are getting guns because they need them to support their drug business.....and as the left wing socialists use all the money for social welfare programs, the first groups that get hit are law enforcement....which the socially active left wingers attack as racist and out of control....allowing their manpower to be cut, their resources to be cut and their effectiveness to be cut because of politically correct policies.....
> 
> Gun ownership in Britain is reserved for the rich..... those who can own the tiny number of hunting shotguns for shooting game on their estates...meanwhile....the nurse coming home on the tube gets dragged into a park and gang raped because she can't have a gun to defend herself....the senior citizen living in public housing gets beaten and tortured by the feral youths, raised on welfare, without fathers.......
> 
> Crime is going up in Britain.....a lot...their social welfare system has finally reached the point of no return....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Your mythical nurse is four times safer in gon control UK. In the US she could be shot on the tube.Shot at the convenience store. Shot when she stops to llight a candle,shot if she has a beer befoe picking u her kids who have been shot at in school.
> 
> You are a fuckin muppet.
Click to expand...



Mythical Nurse?

Rape prosecutions fall despite police reports rising

The number of rape suspects charged by the Crown Prosecution Service (CPS) has fallen by almost a quarter over the last year, despite an increase in the number of allegations being reported to the police.

In 2017-18 the CPS charged 2,822 defendants with rape, almost 850 less than the previous year and the lowest in a decade.

But the fall - which continues a three year downward trend - comes at a time when complaints to the police are continuing to rise, almost doubling over the last five years.


----------



## miketx

Tommy Tainant said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tommy Tainant said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Here......a history of increasing gun crime in Britain after they banned guns...
> 
> Culture of violence: Gun crime goes up by 89% in a decade | Daily Mail Online
> 
> The latest Government figures show that the total number of firearm offences in England and Wales has increased from 5,209 in 1998/99 to 9,865 last year - a rise of 89 per cent.
> 
> *The number of people injured or killed by guns, excluding air weapons, has increased from 864 in 1998/99 to a provisional figure of 1,760 in 2008/09, an increase of 104 per cent . *
> 
> 
> ========
> 
> 
> 
> Crime rise is biggest in a decade, ONS figures show
> 
> Ministers will also be concerned that the country is becoming increasingly violent in nature, with gun crime rising 23% to 6,375 offences, largely driven by an increase in the use of handguns.
> 
> =========
> 
> 
> 
> Gun crime in London increases by 42% - BBC News
> 
> Gun crime offences in London surged by 42% in the last year, according to official statistics.
> 
> Top trauma surgeon reveals shocking extent of London’s gun crime
> 
> A leading trauma surgeon has told how the number of patients treated for gunshot injuries at a major London hospital has doubled in the last five years.
> 
> ----
> 
> He said the hospital’s major trauma centre had seen a bigger rise in gunshot injuries compared to knife wounds and that the average age of victims was getting younger.
> 
> -----
> 
> Last year, gun crime offences in London increased for a third year running and by 42 per cent, from 1,793 offences in 2015/16 to 2,544 offences in 2016/17. Police have seized 635 guns off the streets so far this year.
> 
> Dr Griffiths, who also teaches medical students, said: “Our numbers of victims of gun injury have doubled [since 2012]. Gunshot injuries represent about 2.5 per cent of our penetrating trauma.
> 
> -----
> 
> Dr Griffiths said the average age of gun crime victims needing treatment at the hospital had decreased from 25 to the mid to late teens since 2012.
> 
> He added that medics at the Barts Health hospital’s major trauma centre in Whitechapel had seen a bigger rise in patients with gun injuries rather than knife wounds and that most were caused by pistols or shotguns.
> 
> Met Police commander Jim Stokley, who was also invited to speak at the meeting, said that handguns and shotguns were the weapons of choice and that 46 per cent of London’s gun crime discharges were gang-related.
> 
> He said: “We believe that a lot of it is associated with the drugs trade, and by that I mean people dealing drugs at street level and disagreements between different gangs.”
> 
> 
> 
> Guns arent banned in the UK. But gun ownership is limited. Thats why our death rates are a fraction of yours. You have lost this argument so many times its laughable.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> No....you are wrong....gun ownership is limited for law abiding citizens...the ones who weren't using them for crime in the first place...but among criminals, gun crime is up 42% in London and up 23% across England and Wales...they obviously didn't get the message that guns are limited.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Guns are limited, "law abiding people" can have guns too.
> 
> Crime is up. You've been told why crime is up, because of the right wing government in power.
> 
> But crime is up, and still MASSIVELY LOWER THAN IN THE USA.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Yes......criminals are getting guns because they need them to support their drug business.....and as the left wing socialists use all the money for social welfare programs, the first groups that get hit are law enforcement....which the socially active left wingers attack as racist and out of control....allowing their manpower to be cut, their resources to be cut and their effectiveness to be cut because of politically correct policies.....
> 
> Gun ownership in Britain is reserved for the rich..... those who can own the tiny number of hunting shotguns for shooting game on their estates...meanwhile....the nurse coming home on the tube gets dragged into a park and gang raped because she can't have a gun to defend herself....the senior citizen living in public housing gets beaten and tortured by the feral youths, raised on welfare, without fathers.......
> 
> Crime is going up in Britain.....a lot...their social welfare system has finally reached the point of no return....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Your mythical nurse is four times safer in gon control UK. In the US she could be shot on the tube.Shot at the convenience store. Shot when she stops to llight a candle,shot if she has a beer befoe picking u her kids who have been shot at in school.
> 
> You are a fuckin muppet.
Click to expand...

Muslims will rape her, stab her, throw acid on her, behead her. Nothing mythical there.


----------



## Tommy Tainant

2aguy said:


> Tommy Tainant said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tommy Tainant said:
> 
> 
> 
> Guns arent banned in the UK. But gun ownership is limited. Thats why our death rates are a fraction of yours. You have lost this argument so many times its laughable.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No....you are wrong....gun ownership is limited for law abiding citizens...the ones who weren't using them for crime in the first place...but among criminals, gun crime is up 42% in London and up 23% across England and Wales...they obviously didn't get the message that guns are limited.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Guns are limited, "law abiding people" can have guns too.
> 
> Crime is up. You've been told why crime is up, because of the right wing government in power.
> 
> But crime is up, and still MASSIVELY LOWER THAN IN THE USA.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Yes......criminals are getting guns because they need them to support their drug business.....and as the left wing socialists use all the money for social welfare programs, the first groups that get hit are law enforcement....which the socially active left wingers attack as racist and out of control....allowing their manpower to be cut, their resources to be cut and their effectiveness to be cut because of politically correct policies.....
> 
> Gun ownership in Britain is reserved for the rich..... those who can own the tiny number of hunting shotguns for shooting game on their estates...meanwhile....the nurse coming home on the tube gets dragged into a park and gang raped because she can't have a gun to defend herself....the senior citizen living in public housing gets beaten and tortured by the feral youths, raised on welfare, without fathers.......
> 
> Crime is going up in Britain.....a lot...their social welfare system has finally reached the point of no return....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Your mythical nurse is four times safer in gon control UK. In the US she could be shot on the tube.Shot at the convenience store. Shot when she stops to llight a candle,shot if she has a beer befoe picking u her kids who have been shot at in school.
> 
> You are a fuckin muppet.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Mythical Nurse?
> 
> Rape prosecutions fall despite police reports rising
> 
> The number of rape suspects charged by the Crown Prosecution Service (CPS) has fallen by almost a quarter over the last year, despite an increase in the number of allegations being reported to the police.
> 
> In 2017-18 the CPS charged 2,822 defendants with rape, almost 850 less than the previous year and the lowest in a decade.
> 
> But the fall - which continues a three year downward trend - comes at a time when complaints to the police are continuing to rise, almost doubling over the last five years.
Click to expand...

So there is no rape in the US despite everyoone owning a huundred guns ?
Knobhead.


----------



## miketx

Tommy Tainant said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tommy Tainant said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> No....you are wrong....gun ownership is limited for law abiding citizens...the ones who weren't using them for crime in the first place...but among criminals, gun crime is up 42% in London and up 23% across England and Wales...they obviously didn't get the message that guns are limited.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Guns are limited, "law abiding people" can have guns too.
> 
> Crime is up. You've been told why crime is up, because of the right wing government in power.
> 
> But crime is up, and still MASSIVELY LOWER THAN IN THE USA.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Yes......criminals are getting guns because they need them to support their drug business.....and as the left wing socialists use all the money for social welfare programs, the first groups that get hit are law enforcement....which the socially active left wingers attack as racist and out of control....allowing their manpower to be cut, their resources to be cut and their effectiveness to be cut because of politically correct policies.....
> 
> Gun ownership in Britain is reserved for the rich..... those who can own the tiny number of hunting shotguns for shooting game on their estates...meanwhile....the nurse coming home on the tube gets dragged into a park and gang raped because she can't have a gun to defend herself....the senior citizen living in public housing gets beaten and tortured by the feral youths, raised on welfare, without fathers.......
> 
> Crime is going up in Britain.....a lot...their social welfare system has finally reached the point of no return....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Your mythical nurse is four times safer in gon control UK. In the US she could be shot on the tube.Shot at the convenience store. Shot when she stops to llight a candle,shot if she has a beer befoe picking u her kids who have been shot at in school.
> 
> You are a fuckin muppet.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Mythical Nurse?
> 
> Rape prosecutions fall despite police reports rising
> 
> The number of rape suspects charged by the Crown Prosecution Service (CPS) has fallen by almost a quarter over the last year, despite an increase in the number of allegations being reported to the police.
> 
> In 2017-18 the CPS charged 2,822 defendants with rape, almost 850 less than the previous year and the lowest in a decade.
> 
> But the fall - which continues a three year downward trend - comes at a time when complaints to the police are continuing to rise, almost doubling over the last five years.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> So there is no rape in the US despite everyoone owning a huundred guns ?
> Knobhead.
Click to expand...

That's correct. me, I own 106.


----------



## 2aguy

Tommy Tainant said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tommy Tainant said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> No....you are wrong....gun ownership is limited for law abiding citizens...the ones who weren't using them for crime in the first place...but among criminals, gun crime is up 42% in London and up 23% across England and Wales...they obviously didn't get the message that guns are limited.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Guns are limited, "law abiding people" can have guns too.
> 
> Crime is up. You've been told why crime is up, because of the right wing government in power.
> 
> But crime is up, and still MASSIVELY LOWER THAN IN THE USA.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Yes......criminals are getting guns because they need them to support their drug business.....and as the left wing socialists use all the money for social welfare programs, the first groups that get hit are law enforcement....which the socially active left wingers attack as racist and out of control....allowing their manpower to be cut, their resources to be cut and their effectiveness to be cut because of politically correct policies.....
> 
> Gun ownership in Britain is reserved for the rich..... those who can own the tiny number of hunting shotguns for shooting game on their estates...meanwhile....the nurse coming home on the tube gets dragged into a park and gang raped because she can't have a gun to defend herself....the senior citizen living in public housing gets beaten and tortured by the feral youths, raised on welfare, without fathers.......
> 
> Crime is going up in Britain.....a lot...their social welfare system has finally reached the point of no return....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Your mythical nurse is four times safer in gon control UK. In the US she could be shot on the tube.Shot at the convenience store. Shot when she stops to llight a candle,shot if she has a beer befoe picking u her kids who have been shot at in school.
> 
> You are a fuckin muppet.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Mythical Nurse?
> 
> Rape prosecutions fall despite police reports rising
> 
> The number of rape suspects charged by the Crown Prosecution Service (CPS) has fallen by almost a quarter over the last year, despite an increase in the number of allegations being reported to the police.
> 
> In 2017-18 the CPS charged 2,822 defendants with rape, almost 850 less than the previous year and the lowest in a decade.
> 
> But the fall - which continues a three year downward trend - comes at a time when complaints to the police are continuing to rise, almost doubling over the last five years.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> So there is no rape in the US despite everyoone owning a huundred guns ?
> Knobhead.
Click to expand...



Nope...didn't say that....but a gun in the hands of an American woman is the best defense against rape, by one or even several rapists....

*And here we have studies that show that guns are the most effective way to stop a rape.....*
Guns Effective Defense Against Rape

A woman using a gun is less likely to be raped and more likely to not be injured during the attack....

Guns Effective Defense Against Rape


However, most recent studies with improved methodology are consistently showing that the more forceful the resistance, the lower the risk of a completed rape, with no increase in physical injury. Sarah Ullman's original research (Journal of Interpersonal Violence, 1998) and critical review of past studies (Criminal Justice and Behavior, 1997) are especially valuable in solidifying this conclusion.

I wish to single out one particular subtype of physical resistance: Use of a weapon, and especially a firearm, is statistically a woman's best means of resistance, greatly enhancing her odds of escaping both rape and injury, compared to any other strategy of physical or verbal resistance. This conclusion is drawn from four types of information.

*First,* a 1989 study (Furby, Journal of Interpersonal Violence) found that both male and female survey respondents judged a gun to be the most effective means that a potential rape victim could use to fend off the assault. Rape "experts" considered it a close second, after eye-gouging.

*Second,* raw data from the 1979-1985 installments of the Justice Department's annual National Crime Victim Survey show that when a woman resists a stranger rape with a gun, the probability of completion was 0.1 percent and of victim injury 0.0 percent, compared to 31 percent and 40 percent, respectively, for all stranger rapes (Kleck, Social Problems, 1990).

*Third,* a recent paper (Southwick, Journal of Criminal Justice, 2000) analyzed victim resistance to violent crimes generally, with robbery, aggravated assault and rape considered together. Women who resisted with a gun were 2.5 times more likely to escape without injury than those who did not resist and 4 times more likely to escape uninjured than those who resisted with any means other than a gun. Similarly, their property losses in a robbery were reduced more than six-fold and almost three-fold, respectively, compared to the other categories of resistance strategy.

*Fourth,* we have two studies in the last 20 years that directly address the outcomes of women who resist attempted rape with a weapon. (Lizotte, Journal of Quantitative Criminology, 1986; Kleck, Social Problems, 1990.) The former concludes,"Further, women who resist rape with a gun or knife dramatically decrease their probability of completion." (Lizotte did not analyze victim injuries apart from the rape itself.) The latter concludes that "resistance with a gun or knife is the most effective form of resistance for preventing completion of a rape"; this is accomplished "without creating any significant additional risk of other injury."

The best conclusion from available scientific data, then, is when avoidance of rape has failed and one must choose between being raped and resisting, a woman's best option is to resist with a gun in her hands.


----------



## Tommy Tainant

2aguy said:


> Tommy Tainant said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tommy Tainant said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> 
> Guns are limited, "law abiding people" can have guns too.
> 
> Crime is up. You've been told why crime is up, because of the right wing government in power.
> 
> But crime is up, and still MASSIVELY LOWER THAN IN THE USA.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes......criminals are getting guns because they need them to support their drug business.....and as the left wing socialists use all the money for social welfare programs, the first groups that get hit are law enforcement....which the socially active left wingers attack as racist and out of control....allowing their manpower to be cut, their resources to be cut and their effectiveness to be cut because of politically correct policies.....
> 
> Gun ownership in Britain is reserved for the rich..... those who can own the tiny number of hunting shotguns for shooting game on their estates...meanwhile....the nurse coming home on the tube gets dragged into a park and gang raped because she can't have a gun to defend herself....the senior citizen living in public housing gets beaten and tortured by the feral youths, raised on welfare, without fathers.......
> 
> Crime is going up in Britain.....a lot...their social welfare system has finally reached the point of no return....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Your mythical nurse is four times safer in gon control UK. In the US she could be shot on the tube.Shot at the convenience store. Shot when she stops to llight a candle,shot if she has a beer befoe picking u her kids who have been shot at in school.
> 
> You are a fuckin muppet.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Mythical Nurse?
> 
> Rape prosecutions fall despite police reports rising
> 
> The number of rape suspects charged by the Crown Prosecution Service (CPS) has fallen by almost a quarter over the last year, despite an increase in the number of allegations being reported to the police.
> 
> In 2017-18 the CPS charged 2,822 defendants with rape, almost 850 less than the previous year and the lowest in a decade.
> 
> But the fall - which continues a three year downward trend - comes at a time when complaints to the police are continuing to rise, almost doubling over the last five years.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> So there is no rape in the US despite everyoone owning a huundred guns ?
> Knobhead.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Nope...didn't say that....but a gun in the hands of an American woman is the best defense against rape, by one or even several rapists....
> 
> *And here we have studies that show that guns are the most effective way to stop a rape.....*
> Guns Effective Defense Against Rape
> 
> A woman using a gun is less likely to be raped and more likely to not be injured during the attack....
> 
> Guns Effective Defense Against Rape
> 
> 
> However, most recent studies with improved methodology are consistently showing that the more forceful the resistance, the lower the risk of a completed rape, with no increase in physical injury. Sarah Ullman's original research (Journal of Interpersonal Violence, 1998) and critical review of past studies (Criminal Justice and Behavior, 1997) are especially valuable in solidifying this conclusion.
> 
> I wish to single out one particular subtype of physical resistance: Use of a weapon, and especially a firearm, is statistically a woman's best means of resistance, greatly enhancing her odds of escaping both rape and injury, compared to any other strategy of physical or verbal resistance. This conclusion is drawn from four types of information.
> 
> *First,* a 1989 study (Furby, Journal of Interpersonal Violence) found that both male and female survey respondents judged a gun to be the most effective means that a potential rape victim could use to fend off the assault. Rape "experts" considered it a close second, after eye-gouging.
> 
> *Second,* raw data from the 1979-1985 installments of the Justice Department's annual National Crime Victim Survey show that when a woman resists a stranger rape with a gun, the probability of completion was 0.1 percent and of victim injury 0.0 percent, compared to 31 percent and 40 percent, respectively, for all stranger rapes (Kleck, Social Problems, 1990).
> 
> *Third,* a recent paper (Southwick, Journal of Criminal Justice, 2000) analyzed victim resistance to violent crimes generally, with robbery, aggravated assault and rape considered together. Women who resisted with a gun were 2.5 times more likely to escape without injury than those who did not resist and 4 times more likely to escape uninjured than those who resisted with any means other than a gun. Similarly, their property losses in a robbery were reduced more than six-fold and almost three-fold, respectively, compared to the other categories of resistance strategy.
> 
> *Fourth,* we have two studies in the last 20 years that directly address the outcomes of women who resist attempted rape with a weapon. (Lizotte, Journal of Quantitative Criminology, 1986; Kleck, Social Problems, 1990.) The former concludes,"Further, women who resist rape with a gun or knife dramatically decrease their probability of completion." (Lizotte did not analyze victim injuries apart from the rape itself.) The latter concludes that "resistance with a gun or knife is the most effective form of resistance for preventing completion of a rape"; this is accomplished "without creating any significant additional risk of other injury."
> 
> The best conclusion from available scientific data, then, is when avoidance of rape has failed and one must choose between being raped and resisting, a woman's best option is to resist with a gun in her hands.
Click to expand...

Do you have something from this century ?

Dont bother, your rape victim has been shot in a bar before she could be raped.


----------



## frigidweirdo

2aguy said:


> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> harmonica said:
> 
> 
> 
> FOUR times lower than the US
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And again, that has nothing to do with their gun control laws....
> 
> Culture of violence: Gun crime goes up by 89% in a decade | Daily Mail Online
> 
> The latest Government figures show that the total number of firearm offences in England and Wales has increased from 5,209 in 1998/99 to 9,865 last year - a rise of 89 per cent.
> 
> The number of people injured or killed by guns, excluding air weapons, has increased from 864 in 1998/99 to a provisional figure of 1,760 in 2008/09, an increase of 104 per cent .
> 
> 
> ========
> 
> 
> 
> Crime rise is biggest in a decade, ONS figures show
> 
> Ministers will also be concerned that the country is becoming increasingly violent in nature, with gun crime rising 23% to 6,375 offences, largely driven by an increase in the use of handguns.
> 
> =========
> 
> 
> 
> Gun crime in London increases by 42% - BBC News
> 
> Gun crime offences in London surged by 42% in the last year, according to official statistics.
> 
> Top trauma surgeon reveals shocking extent of London’s gun crime
> 
> A leading trauma surgeon has told how the number of patients treated for gunshot injuries at a major London hospital has doubled in the last five years.
> 
> ----
> 
> He said the hospital’s major trauma centre had seen a bigger rise in gunshot injuries compared to knife wounds and that the average age of victims was getting younger.
> 
> -----
> 
> Last year, gun crime offences in London increased for a third year running and by 42 per cent, from 1,793 offences in 2015/16 to 2,544 offences in 2016/17. Police have seized 635 guns off the streets so far this year.
> 
> Dr Griffiths, who also teaches medical students, said: “Our numbers of victims of gun injury have doubled [since 2012]. Gunshot injuries represent about 2.5 per cent of our penetrating trauma.
> 
> -----
> 
> Dr Griffiths said the average age of gun crime victims needing treatment at the hospital had decreased from 25 to the mid to late teens since 2012.
> 
> He added that medics at the Barts Health hospital’s major trauma centre in Whitechapel had seen a bigger rise in patients with gun injuries rather than knife wounds and that most were caused by pistols or shotguns.
> 
> Met Police commander Jim Stokley, who was also invited to speak at the meeting, said that handguns and shotguns were the weapons of choice and that 46 per cent of London’s gun crime discharges were gang-related.
> 
> He said: “We believe that a lot of it is associated with the drugs trade, and by that I mean people dealing drugs at street level and disagreements between different gangs.”
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yes, it has A LOT to do with gun control laws.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> It has nothing to do with their gun control laws... their violent crime rates were low before they banned guns, their gun murder rates were low before they banned guns...now?  Their violent crime is sky rocketing, and their gun murder rates didn't change..since British criminals don't commit murder as often......
> 
> Gun control has only added to the violence in Britain as normal, law abiding Brits are helpless in the face of increasingly violent criminals...
> 
> And explain this.....why is it that in the United States.... you can't explain this according to your theory, while my points address all of it....
> 
> We went from 200 million guns in private hands in the 1990s and 4.7 million people carrying guns for self defense in 1997...to close to 400-600 million guns in private hands and over 17.25  million people carrying guns for self defense in 2018...guess what happened...
> 
> 
> --* gun murder down 49%*
> 
> *--gun crime down 75%*
> 
> *--violent crime down 72%*
> 
> Gun Homicide Rate Down 49% Since 1993 Peak; Public Unaware
> 
> Compared with 1993, the peak of U.S. gun homicides, the firearm homicide rate was 49% lower in 2010, and there were fewer deaths, even though the nation’s population grew. The victimization rate for other violent crimes with a firearm—assaults, robberies and sex crimes—was 75% lower in 2011 than in 1993. Violent non-fatal crime victimization overall (with or without a firearm) also is down markedly (72%) over two decades.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://
Click to expand...


The problem is, again, you don't know why the gun control laws were brought in. You think it was to lower the violent crime rate. It wasn't. So why do you expect the laws to lower the violent crime rate.

Wait, you don't. You're just playing stupid games.


----------



## frigidweirdo

2aguy said:


> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> 
> Easy availability of guns means that criminals value their weapons less, which means they're more likely to use them.
> 
> Whereas in the UK a criminal might be able to get a gun, or might not, it might cost them more and it might be more of a struggle to get another one.
> 
> Also that gun warfare isn't prevalent means guns are often used as a means of scaring people, rather than actually having to use them.
> 
> But then again, I showed you the murder rate in the US and the UK compared in a chart, and somehow you believe this is me "focusing on gun murder".
> 
> Another one of your inabilities to know what people are talking about in your desire to "win" of get what you want regardless of the truth.
> 
> UK gun control laws are not a failure. They're also not 100% effective, but what laws are?
> 
> But the UK gun murder rate is massively low, it's murder rate isn't high. It's a success.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You think that criminals are not getting more guns now?    Your post has no bearing on the fact that Britain's criminals are getting more guns... you only focus on gun murder since that hasn't changed in Britain, except for the massive spike immediately after they banned guns.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You want to show that criminals are getting more guns now. Then prove it. Until then I call bullshit on your fake crap.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Here......a history of increasing gun crime in Britain after they banned guns...
> 
> Culture of violence: Gun crime goes up by 89% in a decade | Daily Mail Online
> 
> The latest Government figures show that the total number of firearm offences in England and Wales has increased from 5,209 in 1998/99 to 9,865 last year - a rise of 89 per cent.
> 
> *The number of people injured or killed by guns, excluding air weapons, has increased from 864 in 1998/99 to a provisional figure of 1,760 in 2008/09, an increase of 104 per cent . *
> 
> 
> ========
> 
> 
> 
> Crime rise is biggest in a decade, ONS figures show
> 
> Ministers will also be concerned that the country is becoming increasingly violent in nature, with gun crime rising 23% to 6,375 offences, largely driven by an increase in the use of handguns.
> 
> =========
> 
> 
> 
> Gun crime in London increases by 42% - BBC News
> 
> Gun crime offences in London surged by 42% in the last year, according to official statistics.
> 
> Top trauma surgeon reveals shocking extent of London’s gun crime
> 
> A leading trauma surgeon has told how the number of patients treated for gunshot injuries at a major London hospital has doubled in the last five years.
> 
> ----
> 
> He said the hospital’s major trauma centre had seen a bigger rise in gunshot injuries compared to knife wounds and that the average age of victims was getting younger.
> 
> -----
> 
> Last year, gun crime offences in London increased for a third year running and by 42 per cent, from 1,793 offences in 2015/16 to 2,544 offences in 2016/17. Police have seized 635 guns off the streets so far this year.
> 
> Dr Griffiths, who also teaches medical students, said: “Our numbers of victims of gun injury have doubled [since 2012]. Gunshot injuries represent about 2.5 per cent of our penetrating trauma.
> 
> -----
> 
> Dr Griffiths said the average age of gun crime victims needing treatment at the hospital had decreased from 25 to the mid to late teens since 2012.
> 
> He added that medics at the Barts Health hospital’s major trauma centre in Whitechapel had seen a bigger rise in patients with gun injuries rather than knife wounds and that most were caused by pistols or shotguns.
> 
> Met Police commander Jim Stokley, who was also invited to speak at the meeting, said that handguns and shotguns were the weapons of choice and that 46 per cent of London’s gun crime discharges were gang-related.
> 
> He said: “We believe that a lot of it is associated with the drugs trade, and by that I mean people dealing drugs at street level and disagreements between different gangs.”
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Right, so you need someone to explain it for you? You can't do it yourself?
> 
> The Daily Mail is a right wing newspaper that aims to sell with sensationalism.
> 
> Also I showed you statistics which tell us that gun violence hit a high in 2006 and then dropped.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Also the Daily Mail is being deliberately dishonest, what a surprise. Had they gone from 1993 to 2009 they'd have seen gun crime rose only slightly in that time, from about 7.75 to 8.2 according to this chart.
> 
> But they wanted to bash the Labour Party. The problem is, it was the Tories' lack of investment in the police, in social problems etc that caused this. It just took a bit of time for it to come about.
> 
> The same thing is happening now. They've been in power 8 years, crime is rising again, police funding is dropping, social problems funding is dropping too.
> 
> Labour took over and had everything going down by the time they left office.
> 
> But you carry on being dishonest and ignorant of the UK.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> The Tories can't invest in the police because the social welfare state has drained all the money....and the left wingers in Britain are now doing the same thing to the British police that our democrat party is doing to the police here in the States...they call them racists...they call them thugs....and they are the ones cutting their funding, manpower and tying their hands with politically correct policies that keep them from stopping gun criminals....
> 
> British police ‘still institutionally racist’, senior officer admits as new recruitment strategy launched
> 
> British policing is still “institutionally racist”, a senior police officer has admitted while launching a drive to boost the number of recruits from minority groups.
> 
> Chief Constable Gareth Wilson, the national lead for diversity, equality and inclusion, told _The Independent _the service has “come on leaps and bounds” in recent years but there is more work left to do.
Click to expand...


You love to make stuff up, don't you? 

You have no idea about the UK. You simply say they can't afford it. Yes, they can afford it, they just choose not to afford it.


----------



## frigidweirdo

2aguy said:


> harmonica said:
> 
> 
> 
> answer the question:
> why is UK's murder rate 4 times lower?
> or France's/Germany's?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I answer that all the time.....World War 1 and 2 destroyed those countries, and drained millions of young men from their countries......   They are behind the United States in every way until now...they are catching up to the destruction of the family...which is creating violent sociopaths.
> 
> Their criminals do not use their illegal guns to murder as often or as easily as American criminals....due to cultural factors, not gun control.
> 
> What part of the fact that gun crime is going up in Britain is beyond you to understand....?  They are getting illegal guns in larger numbers...they need them, especially their 3rd world drug gangs, to control their drug territories....they just do not use them to murder...as I highlight in most of these posts...they shoot the legs, not to the chest or the head when they shoot...a cultural difference and even that is changing....
> 
> Read the book, "Life at the Bottom," because it shows how their welfare system and bureaucratic mess is creating the exact same situation you see in our violent, democrat controlled cities....and they are just getting there...while we were there back in the 1960s, since our country was untouched by the destruction of World war 1 and 2....
Click to expand...


What a ridiculous answer.

WW1 and WW2 killing off lots of young men and destroying the family is the reason that violent crime hit a high in the early 2000s. What, 60 years later. 

If your idiotic theory were true, it'd have happened in the 1950s.


----------



## 2aguy

frigidweirdo said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> harmonica said:
> 
> 
> 
> answer the question:
> why is UK's murder rate 4 times lower?
> or France's/Germany's?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I answer that all the time.....World War 1 and 2 destroyed those countries, and drained millions of young men from their countries......   They are behind the United States in every way until now...they are catching up to the destruction of the family...which is creating violent sociopaths.
> 
> Their criminals do not use their illegal guns to murder as often or as easily as American criminals....due to cultural factors, not gun control.
> 
> What part of the fact that gun crime is going up in Britain is beyond you to understand....?  They are getting illegal guns in larger numbers...they need them, especially their 3rd world drug gangs, to control their drug territories....they just do not use them to murder...as I highlight in most of these posts...they shoot the legs, not to the chest or the head when they shoot...a cultural difference and even that is changing....
> 
> Read the book, "Life at the Bottom," because it shows how their welfare system and bureaucratic mess is creating the exact same situation you see in our violent, democrat controlled cities....and they are just getting there...while we were there back in the 1960s, since our country was untouched by the destruction of World war 1 and 2....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> What a ridiculous answer.
> 
> WW1 and WW2 killing off lots of young men and destroying the family is the reason that violent crime hit a high in the early 2000s. What, 60 years later.
> 
> If your idiotic theory were true, it'd have happened in the 1950s.
Click to expand...



You don't understand the damage that those wars did to the societies in Europe.....  we didn't experience the loss of life and the destruction they did......

For the current situation?  Read "Life at the Bottom," it will show you where the family is in Britain....


----------



## 2aguy

frigidweirdo said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> harmonica said:
> 
> 
> 
> FOUR times lower than the US
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And again, that has nothing to do with their gun control laws....
> 
> Culture of violence: Gun crime goes up by 89% in a decade | Daily Mail Online
> 
> The latest Government figures show that the total number of firearm offences in England and Wales has increased from 5,209 in 1998/99 to 9,865 last year - a rise of 89 per cent.
> 
> The number of people injured or killed by guns, excluding air weapons, has increased from 864 in 1998/99 to a provisional figure of 1,760 in 2008/09, an increase of 104 per cent .
> 
> 
> ========
> 
> 
> 
> Crime rise is biggest in a decade, ONS figures show
> 
> Ministers will also be concerned that the country is becoming increasingly violent in nature, with gun crime rising 23% to 6,375 offences, largely driven by an increase in the use of handguns.
> 
> =========
> 
> 
> 
> Gun crime in London increases by 42% - BBC News
> 
> Gun crime offences in London surged by 42% in the last year, according to official statistics.
> 
> Top trauma surgeon reveals shocking extent of London’s gun crime
> 
> A leading trauma surgeon has told how the number of patients treated for gunshot injuries at a major London hospital has doubled in the last five years.
> 
> ----
> 
> He said the hospital’s major trauma centre had seen a bigger rise in gunshot injuries compared to knife wounds and that the average age of victims was getting younger.
> 
> -----
> 
> Last year, gun crime offences in London increased for a third year running and by 42 per cent, from 1,793 offences in 2015/16 to 2,544 offences in 2016/17. Police have seized 635 guns off the streets so far this year.
> 
> Dr Griffiths, who also teaches medical students, said: “Our numbers of victims of gun injury have doubled [since 2012]. Gunshot injuries represent about 2.5 per cent of our penetrating trauma.
> 
> -----
> 
> Dr Griffiths said the average age of gun crime victims needing treatment at the hospital had decreased from 25 to the mid to late teens since 2012.
> 
> He added that medics at the Barts Health hospital’s major trauma centre in Whitechapel had seen a bigger rise in patients with gun injuries rather than knife wounds and that most were caused by pistols or shotguns.
> 
> Met Police commander Jim Stokley, who was also invited to speak at the meeting, said that handguns and shotguns were the weapons of choice and that 46 per cent of London’s gun crime discharges were gang-related.
> 
> He said: “We believe that a lot of it is associated with the drugs trade, and by that I mean people dealing drugs at street level and disagreements between different gangs.”
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yes, it has A LOT to do with gun control laws.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> It has nothing to do with their gun control laws... their violent crime rates were low before they banned guns, their gun murder rates were low before they banned guns...now?  Their violent crime is sky rocketing, and their gun murder rates didn't change..since British criminals don't commit murder as often......
> 
> Gun control has only added to the violence in Britain as normal, law abiding Brits are helpless in the face of increasingly violent criminals...
> 
> And explain this.....why is it that in the United States.... you can't explain this according to your theory, while my points address all of it....
> 
> We went from 200 million guns in private hands in the 1990s and 4.7 million people carrying guns for self defense in 1997...to close to 400-600 million guns in private hands and over 17.25  million people carrying guns for self defense in 2018...guess what happened...
> 
> 
> --* gun murder down 49%*
> 
> *--gun crime down 75%*
> 
> *--violent crime down 72%*
> 
> Gun Homicide Rate Down 49% Since 1993 Peak; Public Unaware
> 
> Compared with 1993, the peak of U.S. gun homicides, the firearm homicide rate was 49% lower in 2010, and there were fewer deaths, even though the nation’s population grew. The victimization rate for other violent crimes with a firearm—assaults, robberies and sex crimes—was 75% lower in 2011 than in 1993. Violent non-fatal crime victimization overall (with or without a firearm) also is down markedly (72%) over two decades.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The problem is, again, you don't know why the gun control laws were brought in. You think it was to lower the violent crime rate. It wasn't. So why do you expect the laws to lower the violent crime rate.
> 
> Wait, you don't. You're just playing stupid games.
Click to expand...



Wow....that answer had nothing to do with actually answering the question.


----------



## 2aguy

frigidweirdo said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> You think that criminals are not getting more guns now?    Your post has no bearing on the fact that Britain's criminals are getting more guns... you only focus on gun murder since that hasn't changed in Britain, except for the massive spike immediately after they banned guns.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You want to show that criminals are getting more guns now. Then prove it. Until then I call bullshit on your fake crap.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Here......a history of increasing gun crime in Britain after they banned guns...
> 
> Culture of violence: Gun crime goes up by 89% in a decade | Daily Mail Online
> 
> The latest Government figures show that the total number of firearm offences in England and Wales has increased from 5,209 in 1998/99 to 9,865 last year - a rise of 89 per cent.
> 
> *The number of people injured or killed by guns, excluding air weapons, has increased from 864 in 1998/99 to a provisional figure of 1,760 in 2008/09, an increase of 104 per cent . *
> 
> 
> ========
> 
> 
> 
> Crime rise is biggest in a decade, ONS figures show
> 
> Ministers will also be concerned that the country is becoming increasingly violent in nature, with gun crime rising 23% to 6,375 offences, largely driven by an increase in the use of handguns.
> 
> =========
> 
> 
> 
> Gun crime in London increases by 42% - BBC News
> 
> Gun crime offences in London surged by 42% in the last year, according to official statistics.
> 
> Top trauma surgeon reveals shocking extent of London’s gun crime
> 
> A leading trauma surgeon has told how the number of patients treated for gunshot injuries at a major London hospital has doubled in the last five years.
> 
> ----
> 
> He said the hospital’s major trauma centre had seen a bigger rise in gunshot injuries compared to knife wounds and that the average age of victims was getting younger.
> 
> -----
> 
> Last year, gun crime offences in London increased for a third year running and by 42 per cent, from 1,793 offences in 2015/16 to 2,544 offences in 2016/17. Police have seized 635 guns off the streets so far this year.
> 
> Dr Griffiths, who also teaches medical students, said: “Our numbers of victims of gun injury have doubled [since 2012]. Gunshot injuries represent about 2.5 per cent of our penetrating trauma.
> 
> -----
> 
> Dr Griffiths said the average age of gun crime victims needing treatment at the hospital had decreased from 25 to the mid to late teens since 2012.
> 
> He added that medics at the Barts Health hospital’s major trauma centre in Whitechapel had seen a bigger rise in patients with gun injuries rather than knife wounds and that most were caused by pistols or shotguns.
> 
> Met Police commander Jim Stokley, who was also invited to speak at the meeting, said that handguns and shotguns were the weapons of choice and that 46 per cent of London’s gun crime discharges were gang-related.
> 
> He said: “We believe that a lot of it is associated with the drugs trade, and by that I mean people dealing drugs at street level and disagreements between different gangs.”
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Right, so you need someone to explain it for you? You can't do it yourself?
> 
> The Daily Mail is a right wing newspaper that aims to sell with sensationalism.
> 
> Also I showed you statistics which tell us that gun violence hit a high in 2006 and then dropped.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Also the Daily Mail is being deliberately dishonest, what a surprise. Had they gone from 1993 to 2009 they'd have seen gun crime rose only slightly in that time, from about 7.75 to 8.2 according to this chart.
> 
> But they wanted to bash the Labour Party. The problem is, it was the Tories' lack of investment in the police, in social problems etc that caused this. It just took a bit of time for it to come about.
> 
> The same thing is happening now. They've been in power 8 years, crime is rising again, police funding is dropping, social problems funding is dropping too.
> 
> Labour took over and had everything going down by the time they left office.
> 
> But you carry on being dishonest and ignorant of the UK.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> The Tories can't invest in the police because the social welfare state has drained all the money....and the left wingers in Britain are now doing the same thing to the British police that our democrat party is doing to the police here in the States...they call them racists...they call them thugs....and they are the ones cutting their funding, manpower and tying their hands with politically correct policies that keep them from stopping gun criminals....
> 
> British police ‘still institutionally racist’, senior officer admits as new recruitment strategy launched
> 
> British policing is still “institutionally racist”, a senior police officer has admitted while launching a drive to boost the number of recruits from minority groups.
> 
> Chief Constable Gareth Wilson, the national lead for diversity, equality and inclusion, told _The Independent _the service has “come on leaps and bounds” in recent years but there is more work left to do.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You love to make stuff up, don't you?
> 
> You have no idea about the UK. You simply say they can't afford it. Yes, they can afford it, they just choose not to afford it.
Click to expand...



Their healthcare system is draining everything else over there....


----------



## Tommy Tainant

2aguy said:


> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> 
> You want to show that criminals are getting more guns now. Then prove it. Until then I call bullshit on your fake crap.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here......a history of increasing gun crime in Britain after they banned guns...
> 
> Culture of violence: Gun crime goes up by 89% in a decade | Daily Mail Online
> 
> The latest Government figures show that the total number of firearm offences in England and Wales has increased from 5,209 in 1998/99 to 9,865 last year - a rise of 89 per cent.
> 
> *The number of people injured or killed by guns, excluding air weapons, has increased from 864 in 1998/99 to a provisional figure of 1,760 in 2008/09, an increase of 104 per cent . *
> 
> 
> ========
> 
> 
> 
> Crime rise is biggest in a decade, ONS figures show
> 
> Ministers will also be concerned that the country is becoming increasingly violent in nature, with gun crime rising 23% to 6,375 offences, largely driven by an increase in the use of handguns.
> 
> =========
> 
> 
> 
> Gun crime in London increases by 42% - BBC News
> 
> Gun crime offences in London surged by 42% in the last year, according to official statistics.
> 
> Top trauma surgeon reveals shocking extent of London’s gun crime
> 
> A leading trauma surgeon has told how the number of patients treated for gunshot injuries at a major London hospital has doubled in the last five years.
> 
> ----
> 
> He said the hospital’s major trauma centre had seen a bigger rise in gunshot injuries compared to knife wounds and that the average age of victims was getting younger.
> 
> -----
> 
> Last year, gun crime offences in London increased for a third year running and by 42 per cent, from 1,793 offences in 2015/16 to 2,544 offences in 2016/17. Police have seized 635 guns off the streets so far this year.
> 
> Dr Griffiths, who also teaches medical students, said: “Our numbers of victims of gun injury have doubled [since 2012]. Gunshot injuries represent about 2.5 per cent of our penetrating trauma.
> 
> -----
> 
> Dr Griffiths said the average age of gun crime victims needing treatment at the hospital had decreased from 25 to the mid to late teens since 2012.
> 
> He added that medics at the Barts Health hospital’s major trauma centre in Whitechapel had seen a bigger rise in patients with gun injuries rather than knife wounds and that most were caused by pistols or shotguns.
> 
> Met Police commander Jim Stokley, who was also invited to speak at the meeting, said that handguns and shotguns were the weapons of choice and that 46 per cent of London’s gun crime discharges were gang-related.
> 
> He said: “We believe that a lot of it is associated with the drugs trade, and by that I mean people dealing drugs at street level and disagreements between different gangs.”
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Right, so you need someone to explain it for you? You can't do it yourself?
> 
> The Daily Mail is a right wing newspaper that aims to sell with sensationalism.
> 
> Also I showed you statistics which tell us that gun violence hit a high in 2006 and then dropped.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Also the Daily Mail is being deliberately dishonest, what a surprise. Had they gone from 1993 to 2009 they'd have seen gun crime rose only slightly in that time, from about 7.75 to 8.2 according to this chart.
> 
> But they wanted to bash the Labour Party. The problem is, it was the Tories' lack of investment in the police, in social problems etc that caused this. It just took a bit of time for it to come about.
> 
> The same thing is happening now. They've been in power 8 years, crime is rising again, police funding is dropping, social problems funding is dropping too.
> 
> Labour took over and had everything going down by the time they left office.
> 
> But you carry on being dishonest and ignorant of the UK.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> The Tories can't invest in the police because the social welfare state has drained all the money....and the left wingers in Britain are now doing the same thing to the British police that our democrat party is doing to the police here in the States...they call them racists...they call them thugs....and they are the ones cutting their funding, manpower and tying their hands with politically correct policies that keep them from stopping gun criminals....
> 
> British police ‘still institutionally racist’, senior officer admits as new recruitment strategy launched
> 
> British policing is still “institutionally racist”, a senior police officer has admitted while launching a drive to boost the number of recruits from minority groups.
> 
> Chief Constable Gareth Wilson, the national lead for diversity, equality and inclusion, told _The Independent _the service has “come on leaps and bounds” in recent years but there is more work left to do.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You love to make stuff up, don't you?
> 
> You have no idea about the UK. You simply say they can't afford it. Yes, they can afford it, they just choose not to afford it.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Their healthcare system is draining everything else over there....
Click to expand...

Quite the opposite. Healthcare is being drained to give millionaires a tax break.
And why do you blame "left wingers" for undermining the police and then quote a Chief Constable ? He is a senior officer. You do know that dont you ?


----------



## frigidweirdo

2aguy said:


> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> 
> You want to show that criminals are getting more guns now. Then prove it. Until then I call bullshit on your fake crap.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here......a history of increasing gun crime in Britain after they banned guns...
> 
> Culture of violence: Gun crime goes up by 89% in a decade | Daily Mail Online
> 
> The latest Government figures show that the total number of firearm offences in England and Wales has increased from 5,209 in 1998/99 to 9,865 last year - a rise of 89 per cent.
> 
> *The number of people injured or killed by guns, excluding air weapons, has increased from 864 in 1998/99 to a provisional figure of 1,760 in 2008/09, an increase of 104 per cent . *
> 
> 
> ========
> 
> 
> 
> Crime rise is biggest in a decade, ONS figures show
> 
> Ministers will also be concerned that the country is becoming increasingly violent in nature, with gun crime rising 23% to 6,375 offences, largely driven by an increase in the use of handguns.
> 
> =========
> 
> 
> 
> Gun crime in London increases by 42% - BBC News
> 
> Gun crime offences in London surged by 42% in the last year, according to official statistics.
> 
> Top trauma surgeon reveals shocking extent of London’s gun crime
> 
> A leading trauma surgeon has told how the number of patients treated for gunshot injuries at a major London hospital has doubled in the last five years.
> 
> ----
> 
> He said the hospital’s major trauma centre had seen a bigger rise in gunshot injuries compared to knife wounds and that the average age of victims was getting younger.
> 
> -----
> 
> Last year, gun crime offences in London increased for a third year running and by 42 per cent, from 1,793 offences in 2015/16 to 2,544 offences in 2016/17. Police have seized 635 guns off the streets so far this year.
> 
> Dr Griffiths, who also teaches medical students, said: “Our numbers of victims of gun injury have doubled [since 2012]. Gunshot injuries represent about 2.5 per cent of our penetrating trauma.
> 
> -----
> 
> Dr Griffiths said the average age of gun crime victims needing treatment at the hospital had decreased from 25 to the mid to late teens since 2012.
> 
> He added that medics at the Barts Health hospital’s major trauma centre in Whitechapel had seen a bigger rise in patients with gun injuries rather than knife wounds and that most were caused by pistols or shotguns.
> 
> Met Police commander Jim Stokley, who was also invited to speak at the meeting, said that handguns and shotguns were the weapons of choice and that 46 per cent of London’s gun crime discharges were gang-related.
> 
> He said: “We believe that a lot of it is associated with the drugs trade, and by that I mean people dealing drugs at street level and disagreements between different gangs.”
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Right, so you need someone to explain it for you? You can't do it yourself?
> 
> The Daily Mail is a right wing newspaper that aims to sell with sensationalism.
> 
> Also I showed you statistics which tell us that gun violence hit a high in 2006 and then dropped.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Also the Daily Mail is being deliberately dishonest, what a surprise. Had they gone from 1993 to 2009 they'd have seen gun crime rose only slightly in that time, from about 7.75 to 8.2 according to this chart.
> 
> But they wanted to bash the Labour Party. The problem is, it was the Tories' lack of investment in the police, in social problems etc that caused this. It just took a bit of time for it to come about.
> 
> The same thing is happening now. They've been in power 8 years, crime is rising again, police funding is dropping, social problems funding is dropping too.
> 
> Labour took over and had everything going down by the time they left office.
> 
> But you carry on being dishonest and ignorant of the UK.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> The Tories can't invest in the police because the social welfare state has drained all the money....and the left wingers in Britain are now doing the same thing to the British police that our democrat party is doing to the police here in the States...they call them racists...they call them thugs....and they are the ones cutting their funding, manpower and tying their hands with politically correct policies that keep them from stopping gun criminals....
> 
> British police ‘still institutionally racist’, senior officer admits as new recruitment strategy launched
> 
> British policing is still “institutionally racist”, a senior police officer has admitted while launching a drive to boost the number of recruits from minority groups.
> 
> Chief Constable Gareth Wilson, the national lead for diversity, equality and inclusion, told _The Independent _the service has “come on leaps and bounds” in recent years but there is more work left to do.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You love to make stuff up, don't you?
> 
> You have no idea about the UK. You simply say they can't afford it. Yes, they can afford it, they just choose not to afford it.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Their healthcare system is draining everything else over there....
Click to expand...


Oh God, more fucking ignorance.

The NHS costs the UK government LESS MONEY than the US FEDERAL GOVERNMENT pays for healthcare.

Did you know that? No, you didn't, because you don't know anything. 

So how is the NHS draining anything when the US feds pay MORE than the UK government?


----------



## frigidweirdo

2aguy said:


> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> harmonica said:
> 
> 
> 
> FOUR times lower than the US
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And again, that has nothing to do with their gun control laws....
> 
> Culture of violence: Gun crime goes up by 89% in a decade | Daily Mail Online
> 
> The latest Government figures show that the total number of firearm offences in England and Wales has increased from 5,209 in 1998/99 to 9,865 last year - a rise of 89 per cent.
> 
> The number of people injured or killed by guns, excluding air weapons, has increased from 864 in 1998/99 to a provisional figure of 1,760 in 2008/09, an increase of 104 per cent .
> 
> 
> ========
> 
> 
> 
> Crime rise is biggest in a decade, ONS figures show
> 
> Ministers will also be concerned that the country is becoming increasingly violent in nature, with gun crime rising 23% to 6,375 offences, largely driven by an increase in the use of handguns.
> 
> =========
> 
> 
> 
> Gun crime in London increases by 42% - BBC News
> 
> Gun crime offences in London surged by 42% in the last year, according to official statistics.
> 
> Top trauma surgeon reveals shocking extent of London’s gun crime
> 
> A leading trauma surgeon has told how the number of patients treated for gunshot injuries at a major London hospital has doubled in the last five years.
> 
> ----
> 
> He said the hospital’s major trauma centre had seen a bigger rise in gunshot injuries compared to knife wounds and that the average age of victims was getting younger.
> 
> -----
> 
> Last year, gun crime offences in London increased for a third year running and by 42 per cent, from 1,793 offences in 2015/16 to 2,544 offences in 2016/17. Police have seized 635 guns off the streets so far this year.
> 
> Dr Griffiths, who also teaches medical students, said: “Our numbers of victims of gun injury have doubled [since 2012]. Gunshot injuries represent about 2.5 per cent of our penetrating trauma.
> 
> -----
> 
> Dr Griffiths said the average age of gun crime victims needing treatment at the hospital had decreased from 25 to the mid to late teens since 2012.
> 
> He added that medics at the Barts Health hospital’s major trauma centre in Whitechapel had seen a bigger rise in patients with gun injuries rather than knife wounds and that most were caused by pistols or shotguns.
> 
> Met Police commander Jim Stokley, who was also invited to speak at the meeting, said that handguns and shotguns were the weapons of choice and that 46 per cent of London’s gun crime discharges were gang-related.
> 
> He said: “We believe that a lot of it is associated with the drugs trade, and by that I mean people dealing drugs at street level and disagreements between different gangs.”
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yes, it has A LOT to do with gun control laws.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> It has nothing to do with their gun control laws... their violent crime rates were low before they banned guns, their gun murder rates were low before they banned guns...now?  Their violent crime is sky rocketing, and their gun murder rates didn't change..since British criminals don't commit murder as often......
> 
> Gun control has only added to the violence in Britain as normal, law abiding Brits are helpless in the face of increasingly violent criminals...
> 
> And explain this.....why is it that in the United States.... you can't explain this according to your theory, while my points address all of it....
> 
> We went from 200 million guns in private hands in the 1990s and 4.7 million people carrying guns for self defense in 1997...to close to 400-600 million guns in private hands and over 17.25  million people carrying guns for self defense in 2018...guess what happened...
> 
> 
> --* gun murder down 49%*
> 
> *--gun crime down 75%*
> 
> *--violent crime down 72%*
> 
> Gun Homicide Rate Down 49% Since 1993 Peak; Public Unaware
> 
> Compared with 1993, the peak of U.S. gun homicides, the firearm homicide rate was 49% lower in 2010, and there were fewer deaths, even though the nation’s population grew. The victimization rate for other violent crimes with a firearm—assaults, robberies and sex crimes—was 75% lower in 2011 than in 1993. Violent non-fatal crime victimization overall (with or without a firearm) also is down markedly (72%) over two decades.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The problem is, again, you don't know why the gun control laws were brought in. You think it was to lower the violent crime rate. It wasn't. So why do you expect the laws to lower the violent crime rate.
> 
> Wait, you don't. You're just playing stupid games.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Wow....that answer had nothing to do with actually answering the question.
Click to expand...


Yeah, the problem is, when you have to tell someone the fucking basics because they continually just make shit up and pass it off as the truth because they're too damn lazy to bother finding out the truth, or is it because the truth is so fucking inconvenient for you?, then you end up having to point out the reality. 

It's like trying to answer the question "Why is your mother's name John?"

"My mother isn't call John."

"Wow....that answer had nothing to do with actually answering the question."

Of course it fucking doesn't.


----------



## frigidweirdo

2aguy said:


> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> harmonica said:
> 
> 
> 
> answer the question:
> why is UK's murder rate 4 times lower?
> or France's/Germany's?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I answer that all the time.....World War 1 and 2 destroyed those countries, and drained millions of young men from their countries......   They are behind the United States in every way until now...they are catching up to the destruction of the family...which is creating violent sociopaths.
> 
> Their criminals do not use their illegal guns to murder as often or as easily as American criminals....due to cultural factors, not gun control.
> 
> What part of the fact that gun crime is going up in Britain is beyond you to understand....?  They are getting illegal guns in larger numbers...they need them, especially their 3rd world drug gangs, to control their drug territories....they just do not use them to murder...as I highlight in most of these posts...they shoot the legs, not to the chest or the head when they shoot...a cultural difference and even that is changing....
> 
> Read the book, "Life at the Bottom," because it shows how their welfare system and bureaucratic mess is creating the exact same situation you see in our violent, democrat controlled cities....and they are just getting there...while we were there back in the 1960s, since our country was untouched by the destruction of World war 1 and 2....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> What a ridiculous answer.
> 
> WW1 and WW2 killing off lots of young men and destroying the family is the reason that violent crime hit a high in the early 2000s. What, 60 years later.
> 
> If your idiotic theory were true, it'd have happened in the 1950s.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> You don't understand the damage that those wars did to the societies in Europe.....  we didn't experience the loss of life and the destruction they did......
> 
> For the current situation?  Read "Life at the Bottom," it will show you where the family is in Britain....
Click to expand...


Don't I? How the fuck would you know? 

The point I was making, and somehow it managed to slip massively past you, was that you said that the death of so many males caused families to break up, which then led to social problems, and therefore by the time the 2000s came along, and all this violence, the widowers of those who died in WW1 were probably dead, and widowers of WW2 were probably in their 80s or 90s.

So how the FUCK does that impact the 2000s? 

Can you please explain how a person dying in WW1 impacted the crime rate going up in the 2000s?


----------



## Vagabond63

2aguy said:


> I answer that all the time.....World War 1 and 2 destroyed those countries, and drained millions of young men from their countries...... They are behind the United States in every way until now...they are catching up to the destruction of the family...which is creating violent sociopaths.





frigidweirdo said:


> WW1 and WW2 killing off lots of young men and destroying the family is the reason that violent crime hit a high in the early 2000s. What, 60 years later.
> 
> If your idiotic theory were true, it'd have happened in the 1950s.



Oh good grief, more and more drivel from 2aguy. Just for fun, as I've not got time to respond in full now, here are some facts relating to UK WW1 deaths:

UK population in 1914 = 45,750,000
men mobilised (total)= 8,375,000
men killed 1914-18 all theatres= 702,410
When you do the math, it's around 1.53% of the total population. If you look at census records from 1901 to 1931 the UK male population of military age remained fairly constant over the 3 decades at around 8-9 million and actually rose between 1921 and 1931; guess what the first thing those 7 million men wanted to do when they got home to their wives and girlfriends? I'll tell you, start families! Even the post war Flu epidemic only killed around 5,000 men.

Poverty causes families to breakdown; poverty caused by right wing governments imposing unnecessary ideological "Austerity" on the country and along with reducing Police resources, creates a toxic environment where drugs and dispair fuel violence.


----------



## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> I answer that all the time.....World War 1 and 2 destroyed those countries, and drained millions of young men from their countries...... They are behind the United States in every way until now...they are catching up to the destruction of the family...which is creating violent sociopaths.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> 
> WW1 and WW2 killing off lots of young men and destroying the family is the reason that violent crime hit a high in the early 2000s. What, 60 years later.
> 
> If your idiotic theory were true, it'd have happened in the 1950s.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Oh good grief, more and more drivel from 2aguy. Just for fun, as I've not got time to respond in full now, here are some facts relating to UK WW1 deaths:
> 
> UK population in 1914 = 45,750,000
> men mobilised (total)= 8,375,000
> men killed 1914-18 all theatres= 702,410
> When you do the math, it's around 1.53% of the total population. If you look at census records from 1901 to 1931 the UK male population of military age remained fairly constant over the 3 decades at around 8-9 million and actually rose between 1921 and 1931; guess what the first thing those 7 million men wanted to do when they got home to their wives and girlfriends? I'll tell you, start families! Even the post war Flu epidemic only killed around 5,000 men.
> 
> Poverty causes families to breakdown; poverty caused by right wing governments imposing unnecessary ideological "Austerity" on the country and along with reducing Police resources, creates a toxic environment where drugs and dispair fuel violence.
Click to expand...



You have no idea what the War, followed by the Depression did to those countries.....followed by World War 2.....


----------



## 2aguy

frigidweirdo said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> harmonica said:
> 
> 
> 
> answer the question:
> why is UK's murder rate 4 times lower?
> or France's/Germany's?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I answer that all the time.....World War 1 and 2 destroyed those countries, and drained millions of young men from their countries......   They are behind the United States in every way until now...they are catching up to the destruction of the family...which is creating violent sociopaths.
> 
> Their criminals do not use their illegal guns to murder as often or as easily as American criminals....due to cultural factors, not gun control.
> 
> What part of the fact that gun crime is going up in Britain is beyond you to understand....?  They are getting illegal guns in larger numbers...they need them, especially their 3rd world drug gangs, to control their drug territories....they just do not use them to murder...as I highlight in most of these posts...they shoot the legs, not to the chest or the head when they shoot...a cultural difference and even that is changing....
> 
> Read the book, "Life at the Bottom," because it shows how their welfare system and bureaucratic mess is creating the exact same situation you see in our violent, democrat controlled cities....and they are just getting there...while we were there back in the 1960s, since our country was untouched by the destruction of World war 1 and 2....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> What a ridiculous answer.
> 
> WW1 and WW2 killing off lots of young men and destroying the family is the reason that violent crime hit a high in the early 2000s. What, 60 years later.
> 
> If your idiotic theory were true, it'd have happened in the 1950s.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> You don't understand the damage that those wars did to the societies in Europe.....  we didn't experience the loss of life and the destruction they did......
> 
> For the current situation?  Read "Life at the Bottom," it will show you where the family is in Britain....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Don't I? How the fuck would you know?
> 
> The point I was making, and somehow it managed to slip massively past you, was that you said that the death of so many males caused families to break up, which then led to social problems, and therefore by the time the 2000s came along, and all this violence, the widowers of those who died in WW1 were probably dead, and widowers of WW2 were probably in their 80s or 90s.
> 
> So how the FUCK does that impact the 2000s?
> 
> Can you please explain how a person dying in WW1 impacted the crime rate going up in the 2000s?
Click to expand...



No...moron, that isn't what I said... I said the destruction and death of the Two World Wars, and now that I think of it, the Depression, slowed down their society advancing the way the U.S. did....   So, moron, you have the death and destruction of World War 1, and it's aftermath, the Depression, and then World War 2.....major, catastrophic events....... and they slowed down those societies in Europe......  now you have the social welfare states wrecking the family structures in those countries, allowing young teenage girls to have children without husbands, and fathers for those children, so the young males have no one to raise them into young men....   And you are now seeing the effects of that in the increasing violence in those societies, especially Britain.....


----------



## Tommy Tainant

2aguy said:


> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> harmonica said:
> 
> 
> 
> answer the question:
> why is UK's murder rate 4 times lower?
> or France's/Germany's?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I answer that all the time.....World War 1 and 2 destroyed those countries, and drained millions of young men from their countries......   They are behind the United States in every way until now...they are catching up to the destruction of the family...which is creating violent sociopaths.
> 
> Their criminals do not use their illegal guns to murder as often or as easily as American criminals....due to cultural factors, not gun control.
> 
> What part of the fact that gun crime is going up in Britain is beyond you to understand....?  They are getting illegal guns in larger numbers...they need them, especially their 3rd world drug gangs, to control their drug territories....they just do not use them to murder...as I highlight in most of these posts...they shoot the legs, not to the chest or the head when they shoot...a cultural difference and even that is changing....
> 
> Read the book, "Life at the Bottom," because it shows how their welfare system and bureaucratic mess is creating the exact same situation you see in our violent, democrat controlled cities....and they are just getting there...while we were there back in the 1960s, since our country was untouched by the destruction of World war 1 and 2....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> What a ridiculous answer.
> 
> WW1 and WW2 killing off lots of young men and destroying the family is the reason that violent crime hit a high in the early 2000s. What, 60 years later.
> 
> If your idiotic theory were true, it'd have happened in the 1950s.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> You don't understand the damage that those wars did to the societies in Europe.....  we didn't experience the loss of life and the destruction they did......
> 
> For the current situation?  Read "Life at the Bottom," it will show you where the family is in Britain....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Don't I? How the fuck would you know?
> 
> The point I was making, and somehow it managed to slip massively past you, was that you said that the death of so many males caused families to break up, which then led to social problems, and therefore by the time the 2000s came along, and all this violence, the widowers of those who died in WW1 were probably dead, and widowers of WW2 were probably in their 80s or 90s.
> 
> So how the FUCK does that impact the 2000s?
> 
> Can you please explain how a person dying in WW1 impacted the crime rate going up in the 2000s?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> No...moron, that isn't what I said... I said the destruction and death of the Two World Wars, and now that I think of it, the Depression, slowed down their society advancing the way the U.S. did....   So, moron, you have the death and destruction of World War 1, and it's aftermath, the Depression, and then World War 2.....major, catastrophic events....... and they slowed down those societies in Europe......  now you have the social welfare states wrecking the family structures in those countries, allowing young teenage girls to have children without husbands, and fathers for those children, so the young males have no one to raise them into young men....   And you are now seeing the effects of that in the increasing violence in those societies, especially Britain.....
Click to expand...

Fascinating. How has the US managed to avoid the single mother problem ?


----------



## idb

2aguy said:


> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> harmonica said:
> 
> 
> 
> answer the question:
> why is UK's murder rate 4 times lower?
> or France's/Germany's?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I answer that all the time.....World War 1 and 2 destroyed those countries, and drained millions of young men from their countries......   They are behind the United States in every way until now...they are catching up to the destruction of the family...which is creating violent sociopaths.
> 
> Their criminals do not use their illegal guns to murder as often or as easily as American criminals....due to cultural factors, not gun control.
> 
> What part of the fact that gun crime is going up in Britain is beyond you to understand....?  They are getting illegal guns in larger numbers...they need them, especially their 3rd world drug gangs, to control their drug territories....they just do not use them to murder...as I highlight in most of these posts...they shoot the legs, not to the chest or the head when they shoot...a cultural difference and even that is changing....
> 
> Read the book, "Life at the Bottom," because it shows how their welfare system and bureaucratic mess is creating the exact same situation you see in our violent, democrat controlled cities....and they are just getting there...while we were there back in the 1960s, since our country was untouched by the destruction of World war 1 and 2....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> What a ridiculous answer.
> 
> WW1 and WW2 killing off lots of young men and destroying the family is the reason that violent crime hit a high in the early 2000s. What, 60 years later.
> 
> If your idiotic theory were true, it'd have happened in the 1950s.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> You don't understand the damage that those wars did to the societies in Europe.....  we didn't experience the loss of life and the destruction they did......
> 
> For the current situation?  Read "Life at the Bottom," it will show you where the family is in Britain....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Don't I? How the fuck would you know?
> 
> The point I was making, and somehow it managed to slip massively past you, was that you said that the death of so many males caused families to break up, which then led to social problems, and therefore by the time the 2000s came along, and all this violence, the widowers of those who died in WW1 were probably dead, and widowers of WW2 were probably in their 80s or 90s.
> 
> So how the FUCK does that impact the 2000s?
> 
> Can you please explain how a person dying in WW1 impacted the crime rate going up in the 2000s?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> No...moron, that isn't what I said... I said the destruction and death of the Two World Wars, and now that I think of it, the Depression, slowed down their society advancing the way the U.S. did....   So, moron, you have the death and destruction of World War 1, and it's aftermath, the Depression, and then World War 2.....major, catastrophic events....... and they slowed down those societies in Europe......  now you have the social welfare states wrecking the family structures in those countries, allowing young teenage girls to have children without husbands, and fathers for those children, so the young males have no one to raise them into young men....   And you are now seeing the effects of that in the increasing violence in those societies, especially Britain.....
Click to expand...

If your reasoning about Britain being battered in two world wars (and now you throw in the Depression) causing crime rates to rise is true, then why has the US been so far ahead of them in this regard for so long?
Especially when, in your reasoning, they have been insulated from all this mayhem and living in a land of milk and honey.
Are you saying that Americans are just naturally bigger arseholes than the Brits?

Why do you hate Americans?


----------



## Tommy Tainant

idb said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> I answer that all the time.....World War 1 and 2 destroyed those countries, and drained millions of young men from their countries......   They are behind the United States in every way until now...they are catching up to the destruction of the family...which is creating violent sociopaths.
> 
> Their criminals do not use their illegal guns to murder as often or as easily as American criminals....due to cultural factors, not gun control.
> 
> What part of the fact that gun crime is going up in Britain is beyond you to understand....?  They are getting illegal guns in larger numbers...they need them, especially their 3rd world drug gangs, to control their drug territories....they just do not use them to murder...as I highlight in most of these posts...they shoot the legs, not to the chest or the head when they shoot...a cultural difference and even that is changing....
> 
> Read the book, "Life at the Bottom," because it shows how their welfare system and bureaucratic mess is creating the exact same situation you see in our violent, democrat controlled cities....and they are just getting there...while we were there back in the 1960s, since our country was untouched by the destruction of World war 1 and 2....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What a ridiculous answer.
> 
> WW1 and WW2 killing off lots of young men and destroying the family is the reason that violent crime hit a high in the early 2000s. What, 60 years later.
> 
> If your idiotic theory were true, it'd have happened in the 1950s.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> You don't understand the damage that those wars did to the societies in Europe.....  we didn't experience the loss of life and the destruction they did......
> 
> For the current situation?  Read "Life at the Bottom," it will show you where the family is in Britain....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Don't I? How the fuck would you know?
> 
> The point I was making, and somehow it managed to slip massively past you, was that you said that the death of so many males caused families to break up, which then led to social problems, and therefore by the time the 2000s came along, and all this violence, the widowers of those who died in WW1 were probably dead, and widowers of WW2 were probably in their 80s or 90s.
> 
> So how the FUCK does that impact the 2000s?
> 
> Can you please explain how a person dying in WW1 impacted the crime rate going up in the 2000s?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> No...moron, that isn't what I said... I said the destruction and death of the Two World Wars, and now that I think of it, the Depression, slowed down their society advancing the way the U.S. did....   So, moron, you have the death and destruction of World War 1, and it's aftermath, the Depression, and then World War 2.....major, catastrophic events....... and they slowed down those societies in Europe......  now you have the social welfare states wrecking the family structures in those countries, allowing young teenage girls to have children without husbands, and fathers for those children, so the young males have no one to raise them into young men....   And you are now seeing the effects of that in the increasing violence in those societies, especially Britain.....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> If your reasoning about Britain being battered in two world wars (and now you throw in the Depression) causing crime rates to rise is true, then why has the US been so far ahead of them in this regard for so long?
> Especially when, in your reasoning, they have been insulated from all this mayhem and living in a land of milk and honey.
> Are you saying that Americans are just naturally bigger arseholes than the Brits?
> 
> Why do you hate Americans?
Click to expand...

Judging from previous postings I think he only hates some Americans.


----------



## harmonica

2aguy said:


> harmonica said:
> 
> 
> 
> answer the question:
> why is UK's murder rate 4 times lower?
> or France's/Germany's?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I answer that all the time.....World War 1 and 2 destroyed those countries, and drained millions of young men from their countries......   They are behind the United States in every way until now...they are catching up to the destruction of the family...which is creating violent sociopaths.
> 
> Their criminals do not use their illegal guns to murder as often or as easily as American criminals....due to cultural factors, not gun control.
> 
> What part of the fact that gun crime is going up in Britain is beyond you to understand....?  They are getting illegal guns in larger numbers...they need them, especially their 3rd world drug gangs, to control their drug territories....they just do not use them to murder...as I highlight in most of these posts...they shoot the legs, not to the chest or the head when they shoot...a cultural difference and even that is changing....
> 
> Read the book, "Life at the Bottom," because it shows how their welfare system and bureaucratic mess is creating the exact same situation you see in our violent, democrat controlled cities....and they are just getting there...while we were there back in the 1960s, since our country was untouched by the destruction of World war 1 and 2....
Click to expand...

ok--and I've stated this before--if it's a difference of UK vs American culture and not gun control, explain this:
==very pro-gun/lax gun control St Louis:--population 320,000... murders -199
==very gun controlled NYC population 8.6 *MILLION...  *murders-300 !!!!!!!!!!!!

very gun controlled Chicago and LA lower murder rates than very pro-gun STL
*
SAME country*!!!!!  SAME cultures

St. Louis homicide statistics for 2017
2017 was record-low for homicides in New York City, with NYPD logging lowest number in nearly 70 years - NY Daily News


----------



## harmonica

2aguy said:


> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> harmonica said:
> 
> 
> 
> answer the question:
> why is UK's murder rate 4 times lower?
> or France's/Germany's?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I answer that all the time.....World War 1 and 2 destroyed those countries, and drained millions of young men from their countries......   They are behind the United States in every way until now...they are catching up to the destruction of the family...which is creating violent sociopaths.
> 
> Their criminals do not use their illegal guns to murder as often or as easily as American criminals....due to cultural factors, not gun control.
> 
> What part of the fact that gun crime is going up in Britain is beyond you to understand....?  They are getting illegal guns in larger numbers...they need them, especially their 3rd world drug gangs, to control their drug territories....they just do not use them to murder...as I highlight in most of these posts...they shoot the legs, not to the chest or the head when they shoot...a cultural difference and even that is changing....
> 
> Read the book, "Life at the Bottom," because it shows how their welfare system and bureaucratic mess is creating the exact same situation you see in our violent, democrat controlled cities....and they are just getting there...while we were there back in the 1960s, since our country was untouched by the destruction of World war 1 and 2....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> What a ridiculous answer.
> 
> WW1 and WW2 killing off lots of young men and destroying the family is the reason that violent crime hit a high in the early 2000s. What, 60 years later.
> 
> If your idiotic theory were true, it'd have happened in the 1950s.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> You don't understand the damage that those wars did to the societies in Europe.....  we didn't experience the loss of life and the destruction they did......
> 
> For the current situation?  Read "Life at the Bottom," it will show you where the family is in Britain....
Click to expand...

the UK murder rate is not 2, not 3 but FOUR times lower


----------



## frigidweirdo

2aguy said:


> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> harmonica said:
> 
> 
> 
> answer the question:
> why is UK's murder rate 4 times lower?
> or France's/Germany's?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I answer that all the time.....World War 1 and 2 destroyed those countries, and drained millions of young men from their countries......   They are behind the United States in every way until now...they are catching up to the destruction of the family...which is creating violent sociopaths.
> 
> Their criminals do not use their illegal guns to murder as often or as easily as American criminals....due to cultural factors, not gun control.
> 
> What part of the fact that gun crime is going up in Britain is beyond you to understand....?  They are getting illegal guns in larger numbers...they need them, especially their 3rd world drug gangs, to control their drug territories....they just do not use them to murder...as I highlight in most of these posts...they shoot the legs, not to the chest or the head when they shoot...a cultural difference and even that is changing....
> 
> Read the book, "Life at the Bottom," because it shows how their welfare system and bureaucratic mess is creating the exact same situation you see in our violent, democrat controlled cities....and they are just getting there...while we were there back in the 1960s, since our country was untouched by the destruction of World war 1 and 2....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> What a ridiculous answer.
> 
> WW1 and WW2 killing off lots of young men and destroying the family is the reason that violent crime hit a high in the early 2000s. What, 60 years later.
> 
> If your idiotic theory were true, it'd have happened in the 1950s.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> You don't understand the damage that those wars did to the societies in Europe.....  we didn't experience the loss of life and the destruction they did......
> 
> For the current situation?  Read "Life at the Bottom," it will show you where the family is in Britain....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Don't I? How the fuck would you know?
> 
> The point I was making, and somehow it managed to slip massively past you, was that you said that the death of so many males caused families to break up, which then led to social problems, and therefore by the time the 2000s came along, and all this violence, the widowers of those who died in WW1 were probably dead, and widowers of WW2 were probably in their 80s or 90s.
> 
> So how the FUCK does that impact the 2000s?
> 
> Can you please explain how a person dying in WW1 impacted the crime rate going up in the 2000s?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> No...moron, that isn't what I said... I said the destruction and death of the Two World Wars, and now that I think of it, the Depression, slowed down their society advancing the way the U.S. did....   So, moron, you have the death and destruction of World War 1, and it's aftermath, the Depression, and then World War 2.....major, catastrophic events....... and they slowed down those societies in Europe......  now you have the social welfare states wrecking the family structures in those countries, allowing young teenage girls to have children without husbands, and fathers for those children, so the young males have no one to raise them into young men....   And you are now seeing the effects of that in the increasing violence in those societies, especially Britain.....
Click to expand...


Ah, insults. Why are you pulling the insults out?

Oh, oh, so societies in Europe slowed down, did they? 






Do you see a slowing down here? After WW2 the economies of the UK, Japan and Germany boomed. Just like the US. There was a certain amount of slowing compared to the US because they had to rebuild countries bombed to hell by their enemies. But the reality is, post WW2 the western world was booming.

So, how did that lead to an increase in gun deaths in the 2000s in the UK, but not Germany or Japan? 

But this is just like a hole. You keep digging and digging. You didn't have a clue what you were talking about before, making up "facts", and now you have to make up more "facts" to try and save face for having been shown how wrong you were the previous time.


----------



## 2aguy

frigidweirdo said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> I answer that all the time.....World War 1 and 2 destroyed those countries, and drained millions of young men from their countries......   They are behind the United States in every way until now...they are catching up to the destruction of the family...which is creating violent sociopaths.
> 
> Their criminals do not use their illegal guns to murder as often or as easily as American criminals....due to cultural factors, not gun control.
> 
> What part of the fact that gun crime is going up in Britain is beyond you to understand....?  They are getting illegal guns in larger numbers...they need them, especially their 3rd world drug gangs, to control their drug territories....they just do not use them to murder...as I highlight in most of these posts...they shoot the legs, not to the chest or the head when they shoot...a cultural difference and even that is changing....
> 
> Read the book, "Life at the Bottom," because it shows how their welfare system and bureaucratic mess is creating the exact same situation you see in our violent, democrat controlled cities....and they are just getting there...while we were there back in the 1960s, since our country was untouched by the destruction of World war 1 and 2....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What a ridiculous answer.
> 
> WW1 and WW2 killing off lots of young men and destroying the family is the reason that violent crime hit a high in the early 2000s. What, 60 years later.
> 
> If your idiotic theory were true, it'd have happened in the 1950s.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> You don't understand the damage that those wars did to the societies in Europe.....  we didn't experience the loss of life and the destruction they did......
> 
> For the current situation?  Read "Life at the Bottom," it will show you where the family is in Britain....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Don't I? How the fuck would you know?
> 
> The point I was making, and somehow it managed to slip massively past you, was that you said that the death of so many males caused families to break up, which then led to social problems, and therefore by the time the 2000s came along, and all this violence, the widowers of those who died in WW1 were probably dead, and widowers of WW2 were probably in their 80s or 90s.
> 
> So how the FUCK does that impact the 2000s?
> 
> Can you please explain how a person dying in WW1 impacted the crime rate going up in the 2000s?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> No...moron, that isn't what I said... I said the destruction and death of the Two World Wars, and now that I think of it, the Depression, slowed down their society advancing the way the U.S. did....   So, moron, you have the death and destruction of World War 1, and it's aftermath, the Depression, and then World War 2.....major, catastrophic events....... and they slowed down those societies in Europe......  now you have the social welfare states wrecking the family structures in those countries, allowing young teenage girls to have children without husbands, and fathers for those children, so the young males have no one to raise them into young men....   And you are now seeing the effects of that in the increasing violence in those societies, especially Britain.....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Ah, insults. Why are you pulling the insults out?
> 
> Oh, oh, so societies in Europe slowed down, did they?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Do you see a slowing down here? After WW2 the economies of the UK, Japan and Germany boomed. Just like the US. There was a certain amount of slowing compared to the US because they had to rebuild countries bombed to hell by their enemies. But the reality is, post WW2 the western world was booming.
> 
> So, how did that lead to an increase in gun deaths in the 2000s in the UK, but not Germany or Japan?
> 
> But this is just like a hole. You keep digging and digging. You didn't have a clue what you were talking about before, making up "facts", and now you have to make up more "facts" to try and save face for having been shown how wrong you were the previous time.
Click to expand...



Moron, after the war.......   it set them back as a society, read some history of England after World War 2 .....   And then the social welfare state kicked in, you moron, and now we have had generations of teenage girls raising young  males without fathers...which is why you are seeing the increase in violence there...

Again, read "Life at the Bottom...."   It reads as if it was in the U.S.....


----------



## 2aguy

Tommy Tainant said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> I answer that all the time.....World War 1 and 2 destroyed those countries, and drained millions of young men from their countries......   They are behind the United States in every way until now...they are catching up to the destruction of the family...which is creating violent sociopaths.
> 
> Their criminals do not use their illegal guns to murder as often or as easily as American criminals....due to cultural factors, not gun control.
> 
> What part of the fact that gun crime is going up in Britain is beyond you to understand....?  They are getting illegal guns in larger numbers...they need them, especially their 3rd world drug gangs, to control their drug territories....they just do not use them to murder...as I highlight in most of these posts...they shoot the legs, not to the chest or the head when they shoot...a cultural difference and even that is changing....
> 
> Read the book, "Life at the Bottom," because it shows how their welfare system and bureaucratic mess is creating the exact same situation you see in our violent, democrat controlled cities....and they are just getting there...while we were there back in the 1960s, since our country was untouched by the destruction of World war 1 and 2....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What a ridiculous answer.
> 
> WW1 and WW2 killing off lots of young men and destroying the family is the reason that violent crime hit a high in the early 2000s. What, 60 years later.
> 
> If your idiotic theory were true, it'd have happened in the 1950s.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> You don't understand the damage that those wars did to the societies in Europe.....  we didn't experience the loss of life and the destruction they did......
> 
> For the current situation?  Read "Life at the Bottom," it will show you where the family is in Britain....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Don't I? How the fuck would you know?
> 
> The point I was making, and somehow it managed to slip massively past you, was that you said that the death of so many males caused families to break up, which then led to social problems, and therefore by the time the 2000s came along, and all this violence, the widowers of those who died in WW1 were probably dead, and widowers of WW2 were probably in their 80s or 90s.
> 
> So how the FUCK does that impact the 2000s?
> 
> Can you please explain how a person dying in WW1 impacted the crime rate going up in the 2000s?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> No...moron, that isn't what I said... I said the destruction and death of the Two World Wars, and now that I think of it, the Depression, slowed down their society advancing the way the U.S. did....   So, moron, you have the death and destruction of World War 1, and it's aftermath, the Depression, and then World War 2.....major, catastrophic events....... and they slowed down those societies in Europe......  now you have the social welfare states wrecking the family structures in those countries, allowing young teenage girls to have children without husbands, and fathers for those children, so the young males have no one to raise them into young men....   And you are now seeing the effects of that in the increasing violence in those societies, especially Britain.....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Fascinating. How has the US managed to avoid the single mother problem ?
Click to expand...



We haven't, you moron, which is why we have full prisons, and in our democrat party cities we have high gun murder rates.....that is what I keep telling you.......


----------



## 2aguy

idb said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> I answer that all the time.....World War 1 and 2 destroyed those countries, and drained millions of young men from their countries......   They are behind the United States in every way until now...they are catching up to the destruction of the family...which is creating violent sociopaths.
> 
> Their criminals do not use their illegal guns to murder as often or as easily as American criminals....due to cultural factors, not gun control.
> 
> What part of the fact that gun crime is going up in Britain is beyond you to understand....?  They are getting illegal guns in larger numbers...they need them, especially their 3rd world drug gangs, to control their drug territories....they just do not use them to murder...as I highlight in most of these posts...they shoot the legs, not to the chest or the head when they shoot...a cultural difference and even that is changing....
> 
> Read the book, "Life at the Bottom," because it shows how their welfare system and bureaucratic mess is creating the exact same situation you see in our violent, democrat controlled cities....and they are just getting there...while we were there back in the 1960s, since our country was untouched by the destruction of World war 1 and 2....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What a ridiculous answer.
> 
> WW1 and WW2 killing off lots of young men and destroying the family is the reason that violent crime hit a high in the early 2000s. What, 60 years later.
> 
> If your idiotic theory were true, it'd have happened in the 1950s.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> You don't understand the damage that those wars did to the societies in Europe.....  we didn't experience the loss of life and the destruction they did......
> 
> For the current situation?  Read "Life at the Bottom," it will show you where the family is in Britain....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Don't I? How the fuck would you know?
> 
> The point I was making, and somehow it managed to slip massively past you, was that you said that the death of so many males caused families to break up, which then led to social problems, and therefore by the time the 2000s came along, and all this violence, the widowers of those who died in WW1 were probably dead, and widowers of WW2 were probably in their 80s or 90s.
> 
> So how the FUCK does that impact the 2000s?
> 
> Can you please explain how a person dying in WW1 impacted the crime rate going up in the 2000s?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> No...moron, that isn't what I said... I said the destruction and death of the Two World Wars, and now that I think of it, the Depression, slowed down their society advancing the way the U.S. did....   So, moron, you have the death and destruction of World War 1, and it's aftermath, the Depression, and then World War 2.....major, catastrophic events....... and they slowed down those societies in Europe......  now you have the social welfare states wrecking the family structures in those countries, allowing young teenage girls to have children without husbands, and fathers for those children, so the young males have no one to raise them into young men....   And you are now seeing the effects of that in the increasing violence in those societies, especially Britain.....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> If your reasoning about Britain being battered in two world wars (and now you throw in the Depression) causing crime rates to rise is true, then why has the US been so far ahead of them in this regard for so long?
> Especially when, in your reasoning, they have been insulated from all this mayhem and living in a land of milk and honey.
> Are you saying that Americans are just naturally bigger arseholes than the Brits?
> 
> Why do you hate Americans?
Click to expand...


Our society didn't get hit with the destruction, we had a booming post War economy with stable families...it wasn't until the 1960s where we had the Great Society destroy those families...especially minority families in our democrat party controlled cities....  That is when single teenage girls could have children without fathers in the home.....and from the 1960s going forward you had the huge crime problem here.......Britain is just now starting that violence problem....


----------



## frigidweirdo

2aguy said:


> Tommy Tainant said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> 
> What a ridiculous answer.
> 
> WW1 and WW2 killing off lots of young men and destroying the family is the reason that violent crime hit a high in the early 2000s. What, 60 years later.
> 
> If your idiotic theory were true, it'd have happened in the 1950s.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You don't understand the damage that those wars did to the societies in Europe.....  we didn't experience the loss of life and the destruction they did......
> 
> For the current situation?  Read "Life at the Bottom," it will show you where the family is in Britain....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Don't I? How the fuck would you know?
> 
> The point I was making, and somehow it managed to slip massively past you, was that you said that the death of so many males caused families to break up, which then led to social problems, and therefore by the time the 2000s came along, and all this violence, the widowers of those who died in WW1 were probably dead, and widowers of WW2 were probably in their 80s or 90s.
> 
> So how the FUCK does that impact the 2000s?
> 
> Can you please explain how a person dying in WW1 impacted the crime rate going up in the 2000s?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> No...moron, that isn't what I said... I said the destruction and death of the Two World Wars, and now that I think of it, the Depression, slowed down their society advancing the way the U.S. did....   So, moron, you have the death and destruction of World War 1, and it's aftermath, the Depression, and then World War 2.....major, catastrophic events....... and they slowed down those societies in Europe......  now you have the social welfare states wrecking the family structures in those countries, allowing young teenage girls to have children without husbands, and fathers for those children, so the young males have no one to raise them into young men....   And you are now seeing the effects of that in the increasing violence in those societies, especially Britain.....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Fascinating. How has the US managed to avoid the single mother problem ?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> We haven't, you moron, which is why we have full prisons, and in our democrat party cities we have high gun murder rates.....that is what I keep telling you.......
Click to expand...


So, the UK has an increase in violent crime in the 2000s because of the impact of WW1 and WW2. Yet the US which avoided a lot of that suffering on the home front has a much higher murder rate. 

What are you fucking talking about?


----------



## frigidweirdo

2aguy said:


> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> 
> What a ridiculous answer.
> 
> WW1 and WW2 killing off lots of young men and destroying the family is the reason that violent crime hit a high in the early 2000s. What, 60 years later.
> 
> If your idiotic theory were true, it'd have happened in the 1950s.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You don't understand the damage that those wars did to the societies in Europe.....  we didn't experience the loss of life and the destruction they did......
> 
> For the current situation?  Read "Life at the Bottom," it will show you where the family is in Britain....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Don't I? How the fuck would you know?
> 
> The point I was making, and somehow it managed to slip massively past you, was that you said that the death of so many males caused families to break up, which then led to social problems, and therefore by the time the 2000s came along, and all this violence, the widowers of those who died in WW1 were probably dead, and widowers of WW2 were probably in their 80s or 90s.
> 
> So how the FUCK does that impact the 2000s?
> 
> Can you please explain how a person dying in WW1 impacted the crime rate going up in the 2000s?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> No...moron, that isn't what I said... I said the destruction and death of the Two World Wars, and now that I think of it, the Depression, slowed down their society advancing the way the U.S. did....   So, moron, you have the death and destruction of World War 1, and it's aftermath, the Depression, and then World War 2.....major, catastrophic events....... and they slowed down those societies in Europe......  now you have the social welfare states wrecking the family structures in those countries, allowing young teenage girls to have children without husbands, and fathers for those children, so the young males have no one to raise them into young men....   And you are now seeing the effects of that in the increasing violence in those societies, especially Britain.....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Ah, insults. Why are you pulling the insults out?
> 
> Oh, oh, so societies in Europe slowed down, did they?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Do you see a slowing down here? After WW2 the economies of the UK, Japan and Germany boomed. Just like the US. There was a certain amount of slowing compared to the US because they had to rebuild countries bombed to hell by their enemies. But the reality is, post WW2 the western world was booming.
> 
> So, how did that lead to an increase in gun deaths in the 2000s in the UK, but not Germany or Japan?
> 
> But this is just like a hole. You keep digging and digging. You didn't have a clue what you were talking about before, making up "facts", and now you have to make up more "facts" to try and save face for having been shown how wrong you were the previous time.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Moron, after the war.......   it set them back as a society, read some history of England after World War 2 .....   And then the social welfare state kicked in, you moron, and now we have had generations of teenage girls raising young  males without fathers...which is why you are seeing the increase in violence there...
> 
> Again, read "Life at the Bottom...."   It reads as if it was in the U.S.....
Click to expand...


So you're suggesting that crime is caused by single parent families. Do you have anything to back this up? So, when the violent crime rate and murder rate went DOWN at the end of the 2000s, this was because there were LESS SINGLE PARENT FAMILIES?


----------



## 2aguy

harmonica said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> harmonica said:
> 
> 
> 
> answer the question:
> why is UK's murder rate 4 times lower?
> or France's/Germany's?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I answer that all the time.....World War 1 and 2 destroyed those countries, and drained millions of young men from their countries......   They are behind the United States in every way until now...they are catching up to the destruction of the family...which is creating violent sociopaths.
> 
> Their criminals do not use their illegal guns to murder as often or as easily as American criminals....due to cultural factors, not gun control.
> 
> What part of the fact that gun crime is going up in Britain is beyond you to understand....?  They are getting illegal guns in larger numbers...they need them, especially their 3rd world drug gangs, to control their drug territories....they just do not use them to murder...as I highlight in most of these posts...they shoot the legs, not to the chest or the head when they shoot...a cultural difference and even that is changing....
> 
> Read the book, "Life at the Bottom," because it shows how their welfare system and bureaucratic mess is creating the exact same situation you see in our violent, democrat controlled cities....and they are just getting there...while we were there back in the 1960s, since our country was untouched by the destruction of World war 1 and 2....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> ok--and I've stated this before--if it's a difference of UK vs American culture and not gun control, explain this:
> ==very pro-gun/lax gun control St Louis:--population 320,000... murders -199
> ==very gun controlled NYC population 8.6 *MILLION...  *murders-300 !!!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> very gun controlled Chicago and LA lower murder rates than very pro-gun STL
> *
> SAME country*!!!!!  SAME cultures
> 
> St. Louis homicide statistics for 2017
> 2017 was record-low for homicides in New York City, with NYPD logging lowest number in nearly 70 years - NY Daily News
Click to expand...



Wrong....St. Louis, like chicago, lets violent gun criminals out of prison....you have been shown this over and over againg...in all the cities where gun crime is through the roof you have democrat policies allowing criminals out of prison....New York had Guilliani, who locked them up and his police policies are still in place...

It isn't normal, law abiding gun owners committing the crime....... when you keep letting the violent criminals out on bail, and out of jail, you get more gun murder...

You have missed the truth about this issue.

Mayor of St. Louis - Wikipedia


Rise in Murders Has St. Louis Debating Why

Jennifer M. Joyce, the city’s circuit attorney, or prosecutor, an elected position, complains that in St. Louis, *the illegal possession of a gun is too often “a crime without a consequence,” *making it difficult to stop confrontation from turning lethal.

At the same time, deeper social roots of violence such as addiction and unemployment continue unchecked. *And city officials also cite what they call a “Ferguson effect,”* an increase in crime last year as police officers were diverted to control protests after a white officer shot and killed Michael Brown, an unarmed black teenager in the nearby suburb on Aug. 9.

-----------

*Now, an overstretched department is forced to pick one neighborhood at a time to flood with officers. *Last month, Chief Dotson even asked the state highway patrol if it could lend a dozen men to help watch downtown streets; the agency declined.
----
*When the police discover a gun in a car with several passengers, including some with felony records, but no one admits to owning the gun, criminal charges are often impossible, Mr. Rosenfeld said.*

*In addition, according to a 2014 study by Mr. Rosenfeld and his colleagues, a majority of those who are convicted of illegally possessing a gun but not caught using it in a crime receive probation rather than jail time. Gun laws and enforcement are stiffer in many other cities.*

Violence down in St. Louis but homicides hold steady. Are tougher penalties for gun crimes the answer?
But many challenges remain, official said. The department is still down more than 130 officers. Witnesses to crimes remain reluctant to come forward for fear of retaliation, making it difficult to close cases. And a lack of state laws to deter gun crimes has forced the police to turn to federal courts to indict some suspects.

On Tuesday, Edwards made a new pitch: He wants to see the mandatory minimum sentence for armed criminal action raised from its current ceiling of three years to at least 15 years for nonfatal shootings, and 25 years for fatal shootings.

--------

D.C.

DC Won’t Allow Concealed Carry, But Takes It Easy On Armed, Violent Criminals

The problems stem from the city’s Youth Rehabilitation Act, legislation implemented in the 1980s to provide leniency to criminal offenders under the age of 22, even violent ones, with murder convictions being the only exception. It allows judges to disregard mandatory minimums meant to dissuade criminals, often to disastrous effects. The homicide rate spiked by 54 percent in the District in 2015, and 22 of the murderers were previously sentenced for crimes under the Youth Rehabilitation Act, according to an investigation by The Washington Post.

A man released on probation in 2015 under the law was involved in the July shooting death of Deeniquia Dodds, a transgender man. Just over 120 people previously sentenced under the Youth Rehabilitation Act have subsequently been convicted of murder since 2010.

“I knew they were going to let me off easy,” Tavon Pinkney, an 18-year old convicted of homicide in 2015, told The Washington Post regarding his previous sentencing under the youth law. “Nothing changed … They just gave me the Youth Act and let me go right back out there. They ain’t really care.”


----------



## 2aguy

frigidweirdo said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tommy Tainant said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> You don't understand the damage that those wars did to the societies in Europe.....  we didn't experience the loss of life and the destruction they did......
> 
> For the current situation?  Read "Life at the Bottom," it will show you where the family is in Britain....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Don't I? How the fuck would you know?
> 
> The point I was making, and somehow it managed to slip massively past you, was that you said that the death of so many males caused families to break up, which then led to social problems, and therefore by the time the 2000s came along, and all this violence, the widowers of those who died in WW1 were probably dead, and widowers of WW2 were probably in their 80s or 90s.
> 
> So how the FUCK does that impact the 2000s?
> 
> Can you please explain how a person dying in WW1 impacted the crime rate going up in the 2000s?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> No...moron, that isn't what I said... I said the destruction and death of the Two World Wars, and now that I think of it, the Depression, slowed down their society advancing the way the U.S. did....   So, moron, you have the death and destruction of World War 1, and it's aftermath, the Depression, and then World War 2.....major, catastrophic events....... and they slowed down those societies in Europe......  now you have the social welfare states wrecking the family structures in those countries, allowing young teenage girls to have children without husbands, and fathers for those children, so the young males have no one to raise them into young men....   And you are now seeing the effects of that in the increasing violence in those societies, especially Britain.....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Fascinating. How has the US managed to avoid the single mother problem ?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> We haven't, you moron, which is why we have full prisons, and in our democrat party cities we have high gun murder rates.....that is what I keep telling you.......
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> So, the UK has an increase in violent crime in the 2000s because of the impact of WW1 and WW2. Yet the US which avoided a lot of that suffering on the home front has a much higher murder rate.
> 
> What are you fucking talking about?
Click to expand...



It has to do with the destruction of the family.....single teenage girls raising young males..... we reached that point earlier...in the 1960s, because we didn't get set back by World War 2....they fell behind, and now are catching up, their social welfare programs have finally reached the point where they have destroyed their families...


----------



## 2aguy

frigidweirdo said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> 
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> 2aguy said:
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> frigidweirdo said:
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> 2aguy said:
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> 
> 
> You don't understand the damage that those wars did to the societies in Europe.....  we didn't experience the loss of life and the destruction they did......
> 
> For the current situation?  Read "Life at the Bottom," it will show you where the family is in Britain....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Don't I? How the fuck would you know?
> 
> The point I was making, and somehow it managed to slip massively past you, was that you said that the death of so many males caused families to break up, which then led to social problems, and therefore by the time the 2000s came along, and all this violence, the widowers of those who died in WW1 were probably dead, and widowers of WW2 were probably in their 80s or 90s.
> 
> So how the FUCK does that impact the 2000s?
> 
> Can you please explain how a person dying in WW1 impacted the crime rate going up in the 2000s?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> No...moron, that isn't what I said... I said the destruction and death of the Two World Wars, and now that I think of it, the Depression, slowed down their society advancing the way the U.S. did....   So, moron, you have the death and destruction of World War 1, and it's aftermath, the Depression, and then World War 2.....major, catastrophic events....... and they slowed down those societies in Europe......  now you have the social welfare states wrecking the family structures in those countries, allowing young teenage girls to have children without husbands, and fathers for those children, so the young males have no one to raise them into young men....   And you are now seeing the effects of that in the increasing violence in those societies, especially Britain.....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Ah, insults. Why are you pulling the insults out?
> 
> Oh, oh, so societies in Europe slowed down, did they?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Do you see a slowing down here? After WW2 the economies of the UK, Japan and Germany boomed. Just like the US. There was a certain amount of slowing compared to the US because they had to rebuild countries bombed to hell by their enemies. But the reality is, post WW2 the western world was booming.
> 
> So, how did that lead to an increase in gun deaths in the 2000s in the UK, but not Germany or Japan?
> 
> But this is just like a hole. You keep digging and digging. You didn't have a clue what you were talking about before, making up "facts", and now you have to make up more "facts" to try and save face for having been shown how wrong you were the previous time.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Moron, after the war.......   it set them back as a society, read some history of England after World War 2 .....   And then the social welfare state kicked in, you moron, and now we have had generations of teenage girls raising young  males without fathers...which is why you are seeing the increase in violence there...
> 
> Again, read "Life at the Bottom...."   It reads as if it was in the U.S.....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> So you're suggesting that crime is caused by single parent families. Do you have anything to back this up? So, when the violent crime rate and murder rate went DOWN at the end of the 2000s, this was because there were LESS SINGLE PARENT FAMILIES?
Click to expand...



Yep....... do you mean you don't know about this research?

Here......from the Atlantic......a left wing source looking at this...

Then go on and read "Life at the Bottom." about the British problem with crime and family breakdown...

The Real, Complex Connection Between Single-Parent Families and Crime - The Atlantic

But by ignoring a host of policy and cultural shifts during that time, Cohen fails to prove his conclusion. When crime was rising in the '80s and early '90s, legislators, police, and criminal justice experts naturally began to think about ways to counter it. They tried a number of approaches: increasing the number and presence of police on city streets and "broken windows" and "hot spot" policing (intensive and assertive police presence in specific areas where crimes have been committed.) In his recent book _The City That Became Safe_, criminologist Franklin Zimring, using the sort of careful regressions missing from Cohen's analysis, concludes that improved policing is the only plausible explanation for New York City's record drop in crime during these years. It's entirely possible that smart policing compensated for the initial causes of rising crime whatever they were,* including massive family breakdown.* It's also worth noting that Washington D.C., the city which is the subject of Cohen's analysis, has by far the largest per capita police force of any large city in the U.S. It also has one of the highest percentage of single-parent homes

-------

*The 1987 "Survey of Youth in Custody" found that 70% did not grow up with both parents. Another 1994 study of Wisconsin juveniles was even more stark: only 13% grew up with their married parents. Here's the conclusion of Cynthia Harper and Sara McLanahan, the doyenne of researchers about single parenthood: "[C]ontrolling for income and all other factors, youths in father-absent families (mother only, mother-stepfather, and relatives/other) still had significantly higher odds of incarceration than those from mother-father families."*
*--------------*
*The bottom line is that there is a large body of literature showing that children of single mothers are more likely to commit crimes than children who grow up with their married parents. This is true not just in the United States, but wherever the issue has been researched. *


----------



## harmonica

2aguy said:


> harmonica said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> harmonica said:
> 
> 
> 
> answer the question:
> why is UK's murder rate 4 times lower?
> or France's/Germany's?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I answer that all the time.....World War 1 and 2 destroyed those countries, and drained millions of young men from their countries......   They are behind the United States in every way until now...they are catching up to the destruction of the family...which is creating violent sociopaths.
> 
> Their criminals do not use their illegal guns to murder as often or as easily as American criminals....due to cultural factors, not gun control.
> 
> What part of the fact that gun crime is going up in Britain is beyond you to understand....?  They are getting illegal guns in larger numbers...they need them, especially their 3rd world drug gangs, to control their drug territories....they just do not use them to murder...as I highlight in most of these posts...they shoot the legs, not to the chest or the head when they shoot...a cultural difference and even that is changing....
> 
> Read the book, "Life at the Bottom," because it shows how their welfare system and bureaucratic mess is creating the exact same situation you see in our violent, democrat controlled cities....and they are just getting there...while we were there back in the 1960s, since our country was untouched by the destruction of World war 1 and 2....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> ok--and I've stated this before--if it's a difference of UK vs American culture and not gun control, explain this:
> ==very pro-gun/lax gun control St Louis:--population 320,000... murders -199
> ==very gun controlled NYC population 8.6 *MILLION...  *murders-300 !!!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> very gun controlled Chicago and LA lower murder rates than very pro-gun STL
> *
> SAME country*!!!!!  SAME cultures
> 
> St. Louis homicide statistics for 2017
> 2017 was record-low for homicides in New York City, with NYPD logging lowest number in nearly 70 years - NY Daily News
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Wrong....St. Louis, like chicago, lets violent gun criminals out of prison....you have been shown this over and over againg...in all the cities where gun crime is through the roof you have democrat policies allowing criminals out of prison....New York had Guilliani, who locked them up and his police policies are still in place...
> 
> It isn't normal, law abiding gun owners committing the crime....... when you keep letting the violent criminals out on bail, and out of jail, you get more gun murder...
> 
> You have missed the truth about this issue.
> 
> Mayor of St. Louis - Wikipedia
> 
> 
> Rise in Murders Has St. Louis Debating Why
> 
> Jennifer M. Joyce, the city’s circuit attorney, or prosecutor, an elected position, complains that in St. Louis, *the illegal possession of a gun is too often “a crime without a consequence,” *making it difficult to stop confrontation from turning lethal.
> 
> At the same time, deeper social roots of violence such as addiction and unemployment continue unchecked. *And city officials also cite what they call a “Ferguson effect,”* an increase in crime last year as police officers were diverted to control protests after a white officer shot and killed Michael Brown, an unarmed black teenager in the nearby suburb on Aug. 9.
> 
> -----------
> 
> *Now, an overstretched department is forced to pick one neighborhood at a time to flood with officers. *Last month, Chief Dotson even asked the state highway patrol if it could lend a dozen men to help watch downtown streets; the agency declined.
> ----
> *When the police discover a gun in a car with several passengers, including some with felony records, but no one admits to owning the gun, criminal charges are often impossible, Mr. Rosenfeld said.*
> 
> *In addition, according to a 2014 study by Mr. Rosenfeld and his colleagues, a majority of those who are convicted of illegally possessing a gun but not caught using it in a crime receive probation rather than jail time. Gun laws and enforcement are stiffer in many other cities.*
> 
> Violence down in St. Louis but homicides hold steady. Are tougher penalties for gun crimes the answer?
> But many challenges remain, official said. The department is still down more than 130 officers. Witnesses to crimes remain reluctant to come forward for fear of retaliation, making it difficult to close cases. And a lack of state laws to deter gun crimes has forced the police to turn to federal courts to indict some suspects.
> 
> On Tuesday, Edwards made a new pitch: He wants to see the mandatory minimum sentence for armed criminal action raised from its current ceiling of three years to at least 15 years for nonfatal shootings, and 25 years for fatal shootings.
> 
> --------
> 
> D.C.
> 
> DC Won’t Allow Concealed Carry, But Takes It Easy On Armed, Violent Criminals
> 
> The problems stem from the city’s Youth Rehabilitation Act, legislation implemented in the 1980s to provide leniency to criminal offenders under the age of 22, even violent ones, with murder convictions being the only exception. It allows judges to disregard mandatory minimums meant to dissuade criminals, often to disastrous effects. The homicide rate spiked by 54 percent in the District in 2015, and 22 of the murderers were previously sentenced for crimes under the Youth Rehabilitation Act, according to an investigation by The Washington Post.
> 
> A man released on probation in 2015 under the law was involved in the July shooting death of Deeniquia Dodds, a transgender man. Just over 120 people previously sentenced under the Youth Rehabilitation Act have subsequently been convicted of murder since 2010.
> 
> “I knew they were going to let me off easy,” Tavon Pinkney, an 18-year old convicted of homicide in 2015, told The Washington Post regarding his previous sentencing under the youth law. “Nothing changed … They just gave me the Youth Act and let me go right back out there. They ain’t really care.”
Click to expand...

key word '''DEBATING'' --that means you have no stats/proof/etc
the cities have the same diversity/etc
in fact, LA, CHi and NYC have  much denser populations!!!


----------



## idb

frigidweirdo said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tommy Tainant said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> You don't understand the damage that those wars did to the societies in Europe.....  we didn't experience the loss of life and the destruction they did......
> 
> For the current situation?  Read "Life at the Bottom," it will show you where the family is in Britain....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Don't I? How the fuck would you know?
> 
> The point I was making, and somehow it managed to slip massively past you, was that you said that the death of so many males caused families to break up, which then led to social problems, and therefore by the time the 2000s came along, and all this violence, the widowers of those who died in WW1 were probably dead, and widowers of WW2 were probably in their 80s or 90s.
> 
> So how the FUCK does that impact the 2000s?
> 
> Can you please explain how a person dying in WW1 impacted the crime rate going up in the 2000s?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> No...moron, that isn't what I said... I said the destruction and death of the Two World Wars, and now that I think of it, the Depression, slowed down their society advancing the way the U.S. did....   So, moron, you have the death and destruction of World War 1, and it's aftermath, the Depression, and then World War 2.....major, catastrophic events....... and they slowed down those societies in Europe......  now you have the social welfare states wrecking the family structures in those countries, allowing young teenage girls to have children without husbands, and fathers for those children, so the young males have no one to raise them into young men....   And you are now seeing the effects of that in the increasing violence in those societies, especially Britain.....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Fascinating. How has the US managed to avoid the single mother problem ?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> We haven't, you moron, which is why we have full prisons, and in our democrat party cities we have high gun murder rates.....that is what I keep telling you.......
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> So, the UK has an increase in violent crime in the 2000s because of the impact of WW1 and WW2. Yet the US which avoided a lot of that suffering on the home front has a much higher murder rate.
> 
> What are you fucking talking about?
Click to expand...

There must be some logic in his mind there somewhere...buggered if I can pick it out though.


----------



## candycorn

Do they have 30,000+ gun deaths a year?  No.  They are doing something very right and we are doing something very wrong.


----------



## harmonica

frigidweirdo said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> I answer that all the time.....World War 1 and 2 destroyed those countries, and drained millions of young men from their countries......   They are behind the United States in every way until now...they are catching up to the destruction of the family...which is creating violent sociopaths.
> 
> Their criminals do not use their illegal guns to murder as often or as easily as American criminals....due to cultural factors, not gun control.
> 
> What part of the fact that gun crime is going up in Britain is beyond you to understand....?  They are getting illegal guns in larger numbers...they need them, especially their 3rd world drug gangs, to control their drug territories....they just do not use them to murder...as I highlight in most of these posts...they shoot the legs, not to the chest or the head when they shoot...a cultural difference and even that is changing....
> 
> Read the book, "Life at the Bottom," because it shows how their welfare system and bureaucratic mess is creating the exact same situation you see in our violent, democrat controlled cities....and they are just getting there...while we were there back in the 1960s, since our country was untouched by the destruction of World war 1 and 2....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What a ridiculous answer.
> 
> WW1 and WW2 killing off lots of young men and destroying the family is the reason that violent crime hit a high in the early 2000s. What, 60 years later.
> 
> If your idiotic theory were true, it'd have happened in the 1950s.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> You don't understand the damage that those wars did to the societies in Europe.....  we didn't experience the loss of life and the destruction they did......
> 
> For the current situation?  Read "Life at the Bottom," it will show you where the family is in Britain....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Don't I? How the fuck would you know?
> 
> The point I was making, and somehow it managed to slip massively past you, was that you said that the death of so many males caused families to break up, which then led to social problems, and therefore by the time the 2000s came along, and all this violence, the widowers of those who died in WW1 were probably dead, and widowers of WW2 were probably in their 80s or 90s.
> 
> So how the FUCK does that impact the 2000s?
> 
> Can you please explain how a person dying in WW1 impacted the crime rate going up in the 2000s?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> No...moron, that isn't what I said... I said the destruction and death of the Two World Wars, and now that I think of it, the Depression, slowed down their society advancing the way the U.S. did....   So, moron, you have the death and destruction of World War 1, and it's aftermath, the Depression, and then World War 2.....major, catastrophic events....... and they slowed down those societies in Europe......  now you have the social welfare states wrecking the family structures in those countries, allowing young teenage girls to have children without husbands, and fathers for those children, so the young males have no one to raise them into young men....   And you are now seeing the effects of that in the increasing violence in those societies, especially Britain.....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Ah, insults. Why are you pulling the insults out?
> 
> Oh, oh, so societies in Europe slowed down, did they?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Do you see a slowing down here? After WW2 the economies of the UK, Japan and Germany boomed. Just like the US. There was a certain amount of slowing compared to the US because they had to rebuild countries bombed to hell by their enemies. But the reality is, post WW2 the western world was booming.
> 
> So, how did that lead to an increase in gun deaths in the 2000s in the UK, but not Germany or Japan?
> 
> But this is just like a hole. You keep digging and digging. You didn't have a clue what you were talking about before, making up "facts", and now you have to make up more "facts" to try and save face for having been shown how wrong you were the previous time.
Click to expand...

good points


----------



## frigidweirdo

idb said:


> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tommy Tainant said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> 
> Don't I? How the fuck would you know?
> 
> The point I was making, and somehow it managed to slip massively past you, was that you said that the death of so many males caused families to break up, which then led to social problems, and therefore by the time the 2000s came along, and all this violence, the widowers of those who died in WW1 were probably dead, and widowers of WW2 were probably in their 80s or 90s.
> 
> So how the FUCK does that impact the 2000s?
> 
> Can you please explain how a person dying in WW1 impacted the crime rate going up in the 2000s?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No...moron, that isn't what I said... I said the destruction and death of the Two World Wars, and now that I think of it, the Depression, slowed down their society advancing the way the U.S. did....   So, moron, you have the death and destruction of World War 1, and it's aftermath, the Depression, and then World War 2.....major, catastrophic events....... and they slowed down those societies in Europe......  now you have the social welfare states wrecking the family structures in those countries, allowing young teenage girls to have children without husbands, and fathers for those children, so the young males have no one to raise them into young men....   And you are now seeing the effects of that in the increasing violence in those societies, especially Britain.....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Fascinating. How has the US managed to avoid the single mother problem ?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> We haven't, you moron, which is why we have full prisons, and in our democrat party cities we have high gun murder rates.....that is what I keep telling you.......
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> So, the UK has an increase in violent crime in the 2000s because of the impact of WW1 and WW2. Yet the US which avoided a lot of that suffering on the home front has a much higher murder rate.
> 
> What are you fucking talking about?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> There must be some logic in his mind there somewhere...buggered if I can pick it out though.
Click to expand...


Potentially he has multiple personality disorder?


----------



## frigidweirdo

2aguy said:


> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> 
> Don't I? How the fuck would you know?
> 
> The point I was making, and somehow it managed to slip massively past you, was that you said that the death of so many males caused families to break up, which then led to social problems, and therefore by the time the 2000s came along, and all this violence, the widowers of those who died in WW1 were probably dead, and widowers of WW2 were probably in their 80s or 90s.
> 
> So how the FUCK does that impact the 2000s?
> 
> Can you please explain how a person dying in WW1 impacted the crime rate going up in the 2000s?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No...moron, that isn't what I said... I said the destruction and death of the Two World Wars, and now that I think of it, the Depression, slowed down their society advancing the way the U.S. did....   So, moron, you have the death and destruction of World War 1, and it's aftermath, the Depression, and then World War 2.....major, catastrophic events....... and they slowed down those societies in Europe......  now you have the social welfare states wrecking the family structures in those countries, allowing young teenage girls to have children without husbands, and fathers for those children, so the young males have no one to raise them into young men....   And you are now seeing the effects of that in the increasing violence in those societies, especially Britain.....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Ah, insults. Why are you pulling the insults out?
> 
> Oh, oh, so societies in Europe slowed down, did they?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Do you see a slowing down here? After WW2 the economies of the UK, Japan and Germany boomed. Just like the US. There was a certain amount of slowing compared to the US because they had to rebuild countries bombed to hell by their enemies. But the reality is, post WW2 the western world was booming.
> 
> So, how did that lead to an increase in gun deaths in the 2000s in the UK, but not Germany or Japan?
> 
> But this is just like a hole. You keep digging and digging. You didn't have a clue what you were talking about before, making up "facts", and now you have to make up more "facts" to try and save face for having been shown how wrong you were the previous time.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Moron, after the war.......   it set them back as a society, read some history of England after World War 2 .....   And then the social welfare state kicked in, you moron, and now we have had generations of teenage girls raising young  males without fathers...which is why you are seeing the increase in violence there...
> 
> Again, read "Life at the Bottom...."   It reads as if it was in the U.S.....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> So you're suggesting that crime is caused by single parent families. Do you have anything to back this up? So, when the violent crime rate and murder rate went DOWN at the end of the 2000s, this was because there were LESS SINGLE PARENT FAMILIES?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Yep....... do you mean you don't know about this research?
> 
> Here......from the Atlantic......a left wing source looking at this...
> 
> Then go on and read "Life at the Bottom." about the British problem with crime and family breakdown...
> 
> The Real, Complex Connection Between Single-Parent Families and Crime - The Atlantic
> 
> But by ignoring a host of policy and cultural shifts during that time, Cohen fails to prove his conclusion. When crime was rising in the '80s and early '90s, legislators, police, and criminal justice experts naturally began to think about ways to counter it. They tried a number of approaches: increasing the number and presence of police on city streets and "broken windows" and "hot spot" policing (intensive and assertive police presence in specific areas where crimes have been committed.) In his recent book _The City That Became Safe_, criminologist Franklin Zimring, using the sort of careful regressions missing from Cohen's analysis, concludes that improved policing is the only plausible explanation for New York City's record drop in crime during these years. It's entirely possible that smart policing compensated for the initial causes of rising crime whatever they were,* including massive family breakdown.* It's also worth noting that Washington D.C., the city which is the subject of Cohen's analysis, has by far the largest per capita police force of any large city in the U.S. It also has one of the highest percentage of single-parent homes
> 
> -------
> 
> *The 1987 "Survey of Youth in Custody" found that 70% did not grow up with both parents. Another 1994 study of Wisconsin juveniles was even more stark: only 13% grew up with their married parents. Here's the conclusion of Cynthia Harper and Sara McLanahan, the doyenne of researchers about single parenthood: "[C]ontrolling for income and all other factors, youths in father-absent families (mother only, mother-stepfather, and relatives/other) still had significantly higher odds of incarceration than those from mother-father families."*
> *--------------*
> *The bottom line is that there is a large body of literature showing that children of single mothers are more likely to commit crimes than children who grow up with their married parents. This is true not just in the United States, but wherever the issue has been researched. *
Click to expand...


I have no doubt that one of the factors of crime is single parenthood. 

However it's one factor. 

Now here's the thing, guns exacerbate such factors. Take a kid with problems at home, and allow him to easily get a gun, you've got a much WORSE situation than the same kid who struggles to get a gun.

That's what this issue is about, in the US there's easy access to guns, along with a total lack of dealing with social problems.

Britain saw a drop in crime, especially gun crime, because once the problem became apparent, people went out there to try and reduce that problem. And it worked. Now the right wing are in power, they couldn't be bothered to deal with such problems, so they rise again.

In the US no one seems to be bothered in certain places, so the effects are exacerbated by the easy access to guns.


----------



## idb

2aguy said:


> idb said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> 
> What a ridiculous answer.
> 
> WW1 and WW2 killing off lots of young men and destroying the family is the reason that violent crime hit a high in the early 2000s. What, 60 years later.
> 
> If your idiotic theory were true, it'd have happened in the 1950s.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You don't understand the damage that those wars did to the societies in Europe.....  we didn't experience the loss of life and the destruction they did......
> 
> For the current situation?  Read "Life at the Bottom," it will show you where the family is in Britain....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Don't I? How the fuck would you know?
> 
> The point I was making, and somehow it managed to slip massively past you, was that you said that the death of so many males caused families to break up, which then led to social problems, and therefore by the time the 2000s came along, and all this violence, the widowers of those who died in WW1 were probably dead, and widowers of WW2 were probably in their 80s or 90s.
> 
> So how the FUCK does that impact the 2000s?
> 
> Can you please explain how a person dying in WW1 impacted the crime rate going up in the 2000s?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> No...moron, that isn't what I said... I said the destruction and death of the Two World Wars, and now that I think of it, the Depression, slowed down their society advancing the way the U.S. did....   So, moron, you have the death and destruction of World War 1, and it's aftermath, the Depression, and then World War 2.....major, catastrophic events....... and they slowed down those societies in Europe......  now you have the social welfare states wrecking the family structures in those countries, allowing young teenage girls to have children without husbands, and fathers for those children, so the young males have no one to raise them into young men....   And you are now seeing the effects of that in the increasing violence in those societies, especially Britain.....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> If your reasoning about Britain being battered in two world wars (and now you throw in the Depression) causing crime rates to rise is true, then why has the US been so far ahead of them in this regard for so long?
> Especially when, in your reasoning, they have been insulated from all this mayhem and living in a land of milk and honey.
> Are you saying that Americans are just naturally bigger arseholes than the Brits?
> 
> Why do you hate Americans?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Our society didn't get hit with the destruction, we had a booming post War economy with stable families...it wasn't until the 1960s where we had the Great Society destroy those families...especially minority families in our democrat party controlled cities....  That is when single teenage girls could have children without fathers in the home.....and from the 1960s going forward you had the huge crime problem here.......Britain is just now starting that violence problem....
Click to expand...

So....I think I might understand now.
Correct me if I've got it wrong.

In the UK, women who grew up during the World Wars and Depression are just starting to have children.
The children don't have fathers because all the men were killed in the War.
Also, they didn't have children before now because the place was a wreck...as well as all the men being dead.
The children are now out on a murderous rampage throughout the country.

It all makes perfect sense now.


----------



## 2aguy

harmonica said:


> 2aguy said:
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> harmonica said:
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> 2aguy said:
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> harmonica said:
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> answer the question:
> why is UK's murder rate 4 times lower?
> or France's/Germany's?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I answer that all the time.....World War 1 and 2 destroyed those countries, and drained millions of young men from their countries......   They are behind the United States in every way until now...they are catching up to the destruction of the family...which is creating violent sociopaths.
> 
> Their criminals do not use their illegal guns to murder as often or as easily as American criminals....due to cultural factors, not gun control.
> 
> What part of the fact that gun crime is going up in Britain is beyond you to understand....?  They are getting illegal guns in larger numbers...they need them, especially their 3rd world drug gangs, to control their drug territories....they just do not use them to murder...as I highlight in most of these posts...they shoot the legs, not to the chest or the head when they shoot...a cultural difference and even that is changing....
> 
> Read the book, "Life at the Bottom," because it shows how their welfare system and bureaucratic mess is creating the exact same situation you see in our violent, democrat controlled cities....and they are just getting there...while we were there back in the 1960s, since our country was untouched by the destruction of World war 1 and 2....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> ok--and I've stated this before--if it's a difference of UK vs American culture and not gun control, explain this:
> ==very pro-gun/lax gun control St Louis:--population 320,000... murders -199
> ==very gun controlled NYC population 8.6 *MILLION...  *murders-300 !!!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> very gun controlled Chicago and LA lower murder rates than very pro-gun STL
> *
> SAME country*!!!!!  SAME cultures
> 
> St. Louis homicide statistics for 2017
> 2017 was record-low for homicides in New York City, with NYPD logging lowest number in nearly 70 years - NY Daily News
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Wrong....St. Louis, like chicago, lets violent gun criminals out of prison....you have been shown this over and over againg...in all the cities where gun crime is through the roof you have democrat policies allowing criminals out of prison....New York had Guilliani, who locked them up and his police policies are still in place...
> 
> It isn't normal, law abiding gun owners committing the crime....... when you keep letting the violent criminals out on bail, and out of jail, you get more gun murder...
> 
> You have missed the truth about this issue.
> 
> Mayor of St. Louis - Wikipedia
> 
> 
> Rise in Murders Has St. Louis Debating Why
> 
> Jennifer M. Joyce, the city’s circuit attorney, or prosecutor, an elected position, complains that in St. Louis, *the illegal possession of a gun is too often “a crime without a consequence,” *making it difficult to stop confrontation from turning lethal.
> 
> At the same time, deeper social roots of violence such as addiction and unemployment continue unchecked. *And city officials also cite what they call a “Ferguson effect,”* an increase in crime last year as police officers were diverted to control protests after a white officer shot and killed Michael Brown, an unarmed black teenager in the nearby suburb on Aug. 9.
> 
> -----------
> 
> *Now, an overstretched department is forced to pick one neighborhood at a time to flood with officers. *Last month, Chief Dotson even asked the state highway patrol if it could lend a dozen men to help watch downtown streets; the agency declined.
> ----
> *When the police discover a gun in a car with several passengers, including some with felony records, but no one admits to owning the gun, criminal charges are often impossible, Mr. Rosenfeld said.*
> 
> *In addition, according to a 2014 study by Mr. Rosenfeld and his colleagues, a majority of those who are convicted of illegally possessing a gun but not caught using it in a crime receive probation rather than jail time. Gun laws and enforcement are stiffer in many other cities.*
> 
> Violence down in St. Louis but homicides hold steady. Are tougher penalties for gun crimes the answer?
> But many challenges remain, official said. The department is still down more than 130 officers. Witnesses to crimes remain reluctant to come forward for fear of retaliation, making it difficult to close cases. And a lack of state laws to deter gun crimes has forced the police to turn to federal courts to indict some suspects.
> 
> On Tuesday, Edwards made a new pitch: He wants to see the mandatory minimum sentence for armed criminal action raised from its current ceiling of three years to at least 15 years for nonfatal shootings, and 25 years for fatal shootings.
> 
> --------
> 
> D.C.
> 
> DC Won’t Allow Concealed Carry, But Takes It Easy On Armed, Violent Criminals
> 
> The problems stem from the city’s Youth Rehabilitation Act, legislation implemented in the 1980s to provide leniency to criminal offenders under the age of 22, even violent ones, with murder convictions being the only exception. It allows judges to disregard mandatory minimums meant to dissuade criminals, often to disastrous effects. The homicide rate spiked by 54 percent in the District in 2015, and 22 of the murderers were previously sentenced for crimes under the Youth Rehabilitation Act, according to an investigation by The Washington Post.
> 
> A man released on probation in 2015 under the law was involved in the July shooting death of Deeniquia Dodds, a transgender man. Just over 120 people previously sentenced under the Youth Rehabilitation Act have subsequently been convicted of murder since 2010.
> 
> “I knew they were going to let me off easy,” Tavon Pinkney, an 18-year old convicted of homicide in 2015, told The Washington Post regarding his previous sentencing under the youth law. “Nothing changed … They just gave me the Youth Act and let me go right back out there. They ain’t really care.”
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> key word '''DEBATING'' --that means you have no stats/proof/etc
> the cities have the same diversity/etc
> in fact, LA, CHi and NYC have  much denser populations!!!
Click to expand...



NYC had Guilliani....Chicago and St. Louis are letting violent criminals back on their streets....over and over again...

This is Chicago's problem...

A Detailed Look At Last Weekend's Chicago Gang Violence Shooting Victims - The Truth About Guns

Behind the scenes, Chicago Police put out a “Detailed Situational Report” (DSR) each weekday. On it, their “Data Warehouse” lists shooting incidents and murders along with guns recovered.
Inside, the report details the names and descriptions of each of the victims and suspects, including any gang affiliations and the location of each incident. Furthermore, it shows each person’s criminal history, a description of their injuries and their Strategic Subject List score. Lastly, it contains a narrative of what happened.
Because it’s Chicago — where support from “the community” typically hovers near zero — police seldom identify any suspects, much less make arrests. In fact, CPD has made arrests in only 13% of homicides so far in 2018.
A casual glance through the confidential DSR reveals that virtually every victim of Chicago violence last weekend had gang ties. Either as a member of a gang or those (often young females) who hang out with gang members. The other glaring common thread: the victims themselves usually have criminal histories, too.
In fact, poring over the fifteen pages of incidents (pasted end to end, that’s over 10 feet of incidents), only 21 of the 78 victims did _not_ have a criminal history. Meanwhile, those with arrest records garnered a total of 813 arrests between them.
Eight hundred thirteen arrests.
At the same time, Cook County’s infamous “catch and release” criminal justice system only managed to gain convictions in 120 of those 813 arrests.
For example, one 23-year-old Black P. Stone gang member who was shot in the gut had 35 arrests and _zero convictions_. One perforated 66-year-old had 55 arrests!
Another 32-year-old Four Corner Hustlers member, Charles Green, had 62 arrests, but he won’t re-offend. Not after he suffered multiple gunshot wounds that proved fatal. Green’s colorful past included arrests for dope, more dope, armed robbery, and a murder for which Cook County prosecutor Kim Foxx released him without charges.
Tip for the day, besides avoiding Chicago: mommas, don’t let your girls hang out with gang members. Otherwise, they can find themselves caught in the crossfire, and they don’t always survive.
Three young adult women without any criminal history or gang affiliations suffered gunshot wounds in a single incident at 1338 S. Millard Ave. Two offenders began shooting into “a large street gathering” wounding a total of seven.  Tragically, a 17-year-old girl named Jahnae Patterson died there from a wound to her face.
--------------
*Meanwhile, another victim at that same location, aged 14, remains in good condition.  How terrible, you say?  That same 14-year-old named Marion already has two arrests for car burglaries and a Strategic Subject List (SSL) score of 385.  The SSL score serves to indicate potential future criminal behavior.  As defined by the City of Chicago:*

Another case caught my eye. The victim, Miguel, a 19-year-old Hispanic male, told police he saw some people who recognized him emerge from a convenience store.  For some unknown reason (he says) they began chasing him in the 3900 block of S. Rockwell. In the alley behind the store, he heard gunshots and felt pain.

Before you start oozing sympathy for this poor teen, know that CPD says Miguel also moonlights as a Satan Disciples gang member and has built his SSL score to 500. With a SSL score that high, Darwin will probably catch up with him soon enough, assuming he survives this hospital visit.

--------

Baltimore...

2017 homicide data provide insight into Baltimore's gun wars, police say



About 86 percent of the victims and 85 percent of the 118 suspects identified by police had prior criminal records. And about 46 percent of victims and 44 percent of suspects had previously been arrested for gun crimes, the data show.
----
The average homicide victim in Baltimore in 2017 had 11 previous arrests on his record. About 73 percent had drug arrests, and nearly 50 percent had been arrested for a violent crime. About 30 percent were on parole or probation at the time they were killed, and more than 6 percent were on parole or probation for a gun crime.

Twenty percent of the victims were known members of a gang or drug crew, according to the data.

The average homicide suspect, meanwhile, had 9 previous arrests on his record. About 70 percent had drug arrests, and nearly half had been arrested for a violent crime. Nearly 36 percent were on parole or probation, and 6 percent were on parole or probation for a gun crime, the data show.

Eighteen percent of the suspects were known members of a gang or drug crew, according to the data.

Police did not know the motive behind nearly half of the killings, but at least 20 were related to retaliation, according to the data.


=============

Chicago..


Actual report on shootings in chicago...http://urbanlabs.uchicago.edu/attachments/store/2435a5d4658e2ca19f4f225b810ce0dbdb9231cbdb8d702e784087469ee3/UChicagoCrimeLab+Gun+Violence+in+Chicago+2016.pdf


1/19/17   Shooters in Chicago criminal record research from U of C








_Nearly 40 percent of victims had more than 10 prior arrests, while the share with more than 20 prior arrests rose from 14 to 18 percent in 2016._

_The share of victims with a current or prior gang affiliation as recorded by CPD was about the same in both years (53 and 54 percent)._

And now the shooters . . .

_Individuals arrested for a homicide or shooting in Chicago in 2016 and 2015 had similar prior criminal records: around 90 percent had at least one prior arrest, approximately 50 percent had a prior arrest for a violent crime specifically, and almost 40 percent had a prior gun arrest._





_The average person arrested for a homicide or shooting in both years had nearly 12 prior arrests, with almost 45 percent having had more than 10 prior arrests, and almost 20 percent having had more than 20 prior arrests._

Why is anyone in Chicago (or elsewhere) talking about gun control? Clearly, Chicago’s revolving door justice system is a failure that allows dangerous killers to roam the city streets.
============================


12/27/16  Gang shootings in Chicago over christmas..90% gang affiliated


Gang Killers In Chicago Used Christmas Gatherings To Target Their Victims

Gang killers, knowing their targets would be home for Christmas, launched a bloody weekend of shootings in Chicago that left 11 dead and another 37 wounded.

"We now know that the majority of these shootings and homicides were targeted attacks by gangs against potential rivals who were at holiday gatherings. This was followed by several acts of retaliatory gun violence," police spokesman Anthony Guglielmi said in a statement Monday.

--------------

*The violence primarily occurred in areas with historical gang conflicts on the South and West Side of Chicago."*


And this is what we keep telling you anti gunners and you refuse to believe it....

*"Ninety percent of those fatally wounded had gang affiliations, criminal histories and were pre-identified by the department's strategic subject algorithm as being a potential suspect or victim of gun violence," Guglielmi said.*
==


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## 2aguy

candycorn said:


> Do they have 30,000+ gun deaths a year?  No.  They are doing something very right and we are doing something very wrong.




they didn't have that many before they banned guns...now they have more gun crime after they banned guns for law abiding Brits....

Meanwhile...we have less gun crime as more Americans own and carry guns....

We went from 200 million guns in private hands in the 1990s and 4.7 million people carrying guns for self defense in 1997...to close to 400-600 million guns in private hands and over 17.25  million people carrying guns for self defense in 2018...guess what happened...


--* gun murder down 49%*

*--gun crime down 75%*

*--violent crime down 72%*

Gun Homicide Rate Down 49% Since 1993 Peak; Public Unaware

Compared with 1993, the peak of U.S. gun homicides, the firearm homicide rate was 49% lower in 2010, and there were fewer deaths, even though the nation’s population grew. The victimization rate for other violent crimes with a firearm—assaults, robberies and sex crimes—was 75% lower in 2011 than in 1993. Violent non-fatal crime victimization overall (with or without a firearm) also is down markedly (72%) over two decades.


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## 2aguy

frigidweirdo said:


> 2aguy said:
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> 2aguy said:
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> No...moron, that isn't what I said... I said the destruction and death of the Two World Wars, and now that I think of it, the Depression, slowed down their society advancing the way the U.S. did....   So, moron, you have the death and destruction of World War 1, and it's aftermath, the Depression, and then World War 2.....major, catastrophic events....... and they slowed down those societies in Europe......  now you have the social welfare states wrecking the family structures in those countries, allowing young teenage girls to have children without husbands, and fathers for those children, so the young males have no one to raise them into young men....   And you are now seeing the effects of that in the increasing violence in those societies, especially Britain.....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ah, insults. Why are you pulling the insults out?
> 
> Oh, oh, so societies in Europe slowed down, did they?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Do you see a slowing down here? After WW2 the economies of the UK, Japan and Germany boomed. Just like the US. There was a certain amount of slowing compared to the US because they had to rebuild countries bombed to hell by their enemies. But the reality is, post WW2 the western world was booming.
> 
> So, how did that lead to an increase in gun deaths in the 2000s in the UK, but not Germany or Japan?
> 
> But this is just like a hole. You keep digging and digging. You didn't have a clue what you were talking about before, making up "facts", and now you have to make up more "facts" to try and save face for having been shown how wrong you were the previous time.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Moron, after the war.......   it set them back as a society, read some history of England after World War 2 .....   And then the social welfare state kicked in, you moron, and now we have had generations of teenage girls raising young  males without fathers...which is why you are seeing the increase in violence there...
> 
> Again, read "Life at the Bottom...."   It reads as if it was in the U.S.....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> So you're suggesting that crime is caused by single parent families. Do you have anything to back this up? So, when the violent crime rate and murder rate went DOWN at the end of the 2000s, this was because there were LESS SINGLE PARENT FAMILIES?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Yep....... do you mean you don't know about this research?
> 
> Here......from the Atlantic......a left wing source looking at this...
> 
> Then go on and read "Life at the Bottom." about the British problem with crime and family breakdown...
> 
> The Real, Complex Connection Between Single-Parent Families and Crime - The Atlantic
> 
> But by ignoring a host of policy and cultural shifts during that time, Cohen fails to prove his conclusion. When crime was rising in the '80s and early '90s, legislators, police, and criminal justice experts naturally began to think about ways to counter it. They tried a number of approaches: increasing the number and presence of police on city streets and "broken windows" and "hot spot" policing (intensive and assertive police presence in specific areas where crimes have been committed.) In his recent book _The City That Became Safe_, criminologist Franklin Zimring, using the sort of careful regressions missing from Cohen's analysis, concludes that improved policing is the only plausible explanation for New York City's record drop in crime during these years. It's entirely possible that smart policing compensated for the initial causes of rising crime whatever they were,* including massive family breakdown.* It's also worth noting that Washington D.C., the city which is the subject of Cohen's analysis, has by far the largest per capita police force of any large city in the U.S. It also has one of the highest percentage of single-parent homes
> 
> -------
> 
> *The 1987 "Survey of Youth in Custody" found that 70% did not grow up with both parents. Another 1994 study of Wisconsin juveniles was even more stark: only 13% grew up with their married parents. Here's the conclusion of Cynthia Harper and Sara McLanahan, the doyenne of researchers about single parenthood: "[C]ontrolling for income and all other factors, youths in father-absent families (mother only, mother-stepfather, and relatives/other) still had significantly higher odds of incarceration than those from mother-father families."*
> *--------------*
> *The bottom line is that there is a large body of literature showing that children of single mothers are more likely to commit crimes than children who grow up with their married parents. This is true not just in the United States, but wherever the issue has been researched. *
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I have no doubt that one of the factors of crime is single parenthood.
> 
> However it's one factor.
> 
> Now here's the thing, guns exacerbate such factors. Take a kid with problems at home, and allow him to easily get a gun, you've got a much WORSE situation than the same kid who struggles to get a gun.
> 
> That's what this issue is about, in the US there's easy access to guns, along with a total lack of dealing with social problems.
> 
> Britain saw a drop in crime, especially gun crime, because once the problem became apparent, people went out there to try and reduce that problem. And it worked. Now the right wing are in power, they couldn't be bothered to deal with such problems, so they rise again.
> 
> In the US no one seems to be bothered in certain places, so the effects are exacerbated by the easy access to guns.
Click to expand...



Wrong.....again...

We went from 200 million guns in private hands in the 1990s and 4.7 million people carrying guns for self defense in 1997...to close to 400-600 million guns in private hands and over 17.25  million people carrying guns for self defense in 2018...guess what happened...


--* gun murder down 49%*

*--gun crime down 75%*

*--violent crime down 72%*

Gun Homicide Rate Down 49% Since 1993 Peak; Public Unaware

Compared with 1993, the peak of U.S. gun homicides, the firearm homicide rate was 49% lower in 2010, and there were fewer deaths, even though the nation’s population grew. The victimization rate for other violent crimes with a firearm—assaults, robberies and sex crimes—was 75% lower in 2011 than in 1993. Violent non-fatal crime victimization overall (with or without a firearm) also is down markedly (72%) over two decades.


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## frigidweirdo

2aguy said:


> frigidweirdo said:
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> Tommy Tainant said:
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> frigidweirdo said:
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> Don't I? How the fuck would you know?
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> The point I was making, and somehow it managed to slip massively past you, was that you said that the death of so many males caused families to break up, which then led to social problems, and therefore by the time the 2000s came along, and all this violence, the widowers of those who died in WW1 were probably dead, and widowers of WW2 were probably in their 80s or 90s.
> 
> So how the FUCK does that impact the 2000s?
> 
> Can you please explain how a person dying in WW1 impacted the crime rate going up in the 2000s?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No...moron, that isn't what I said... I said the destruction and death of the Two World Wars, and now that I think of it, the Depression, slowed down their society advancing the way the U.S. did....   So, moron, you have the death and destruction of World War 1, and it's aftermath, the Depression, and then World War 2.....major, catastrophic events....... and they slowed down those societies in Europe......  now you have the social welfare states wrecking the family structures in those countries, allowing young teenage girls to have children without husbands, and fathers for those children, so the young males have no one to raise them into young men....   And you are now seeing the effects of that in the increasing violence in those societies, especially Britain.....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Fascinating. How has the US managed to avoid the single mother problem ?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> We haven't, you moron, which is why we have full prisons, and in our democrat party cities we have high gun murder rates.....that is what I keep telling you.......
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> So, the UK has an increase in violent crime in the 2000s because of the impact of WW1 and WW2. Yet the US which avoided a lot of that suffering on the home front has a much higher murder rate.
> 
> What are you fucking talking about?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> It has to do with the destruction of the family.....single teenage girls raising young males..... we reached that point earlier...in the 1960s, because we didn't get set back by World War 2....they fell behind, and now are catching up, their social welfare programs have finally reached the point where they have destroyed their families...
Click to expand...


Well, WW1 and WW2 had nothing to do with the destruction of the families in the UK.

Maggie "the bitch" Thatcher had A LOT TO DO with the destruction of the family. 

How Britain changed under Margaret Thatcher. In 15 charts

"
*Families*
Ironically for a prime minister who focussed so much on family life, the 1980s saw the end of the traditional family unit for many. Divorce rates reached 13.4 per 1,000 married population in 1985, although that wasn't as high as the peak of 1994 after the recession."

Ah, Thatcher came in in 1979 and left in 1990 and the divorce rate rose during her time and after. 

She got rid of things like council houses which allowed people to have a home, which helps when you want to keep a family.

Shotton, 1984: How Thatcher destroyed our town

She destroyed communities and didn't bother to try and help them. 

Viewpoints: How did Thatcher change UK?

"The problem was that the Thatcher government did not care about those who lost out as a result of it and did not do enough to replenish the housing stock that had been sold off."

So, Thatcher was the problem, not wars that happened half a century or more before. Major didn't help either. The Tories like to destroy things that keep things good. 

Who needs the police? The rich can pay for private security.
Who needs education? The rich can pay for private education.
Who needs health care? The rich can pay for private health care.

See the problem?


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## 2aguy

idb said:


> 2aguy said:
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> idb said:
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> You don't understand the damage that those wars did to the societies in Europe.....  we didn't experience the loss of life and the destruction they did......
> 
> For the current situation?  Read "Life at the Bottom," it will show you where the family is in Britain....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Don't I? How the fuck would you know?
> 
> The point I was making, and somehow it managed to slip massively past you, was that you said that the death of so many males caused families to break up, which then led to social problems, and therefore by the time the 2000s came along, and all this violence, the widowers of those who died in WW1 were probably dead, and widowers of WW2 were probably in their 80s or 90s.
> 
> So how the FUCK does that impact the 2000s?
> 
> Can you please explain how a person dying in WW1 impacted the crime rate going up in the 2000s?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> No...moron, that isn't what I said... I said the destruction and death of the Two World Wars, and now that I think of it, the Depression, slowed down their society advancing the way the U.S. did....   So, moron, you have the death and destruction of World War 1, and it's aftermath, the Depression, and then World War 2.....major, catastrophic events....... and they slowed down those societies in Europe......  now you have the social welfare states wrecking the family structures in those countries, allowing young teenage girls to have children without husbands, and fathers for those children, so the young males have no one to raise them into young men....   And you are now seeing the effects of that in the increasing violence in those societies, especially Britain.....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> If your reasoning about Britain being battered in two world wars (and now you throw in the Depression) causing crime rates to rise is true, then why has the US been so far ahead of them in this regard for so long?
> Especially when, in your reasoning, they have been insulated from all this mayhem and living in a land of milk and honey.
> Are you saying that Americans are just naturally bigger arseholes than the Brits?
> 
> Why do you hate Americans?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Our society didn't get hit with the destruction, we had a booming post War economy with stable families...it wasn't until the 1960s where we had the Great Society destroy those families...especially minority families in our democrat party controlled cities....  That is when single teenage girls could have children without fathers in the home.....and from the 1960s going forward you had the huge crime problem here.......Britain is just now starting that violence problem....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> So....I think I might understand now.
> Correct me if I've got it wrong.
> 
> In the UK, women who grew up during the World Wars and Depression are just starting to have children.
> The children don't have fathers because all the men were killed in the War.
> Also, they didn't have children before now because the place was a wreck...as well as all the men being dead.
> The children are now out on a murderous rampage throughout the country.
> 
> It all makes perfect sense now.
Click to expand...



No....moron.   The British culture was still intact right after the war so they still had family structures in place..... then they started their social welfare state which allowed young girls to have children without husbands and fathers...


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## Pilot1

In the UK it is ILLEGAL to use a firearm for self defense purposes, and their are extremely restrictive rules for ownership, what can, and can not be legally owned, and where they can be kept.


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## 2aguy

frigidweirdo said:


> 2aguy said:
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> 2aguy said:
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> Tommy Tainant said:
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> 2aguy said:
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> 
> 
> No...moron, that isn't what I said... I said the destruction and death of the Two World Wars, and now that I think of it, the Depression, slowed down their society advancing the way the U.S. did....   So, moron, you have the death and destruction of World War 1, and it's aftermath, the Depression, and then World War 2.....major, catastrophic events....... and they slowed down those societies in Europe......  now you have the social welfare states wrecking the family structures in those countries, allowing young teenage girls to have children without husbands, and fathers for those children, so the young males have no one to raise them into young men....   And you are now seeing the effects of that in the increasing violence in those societies, especially Britain.....
> 
> 
> 
> Fascinating. How has the US managed to avoid the single mother problem ?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> We haven't, you moron, which is why we have full prisons, and in our democrat party cities we have high gun murder rates.....that is what I keep telling you.......
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> So, the UK has an increase in violent crime in the 2000s because of the impact of WW1 and WW2. Yet the US which avoided a lot of that suffering on the home front has a much higher murder rate.
> 
> What are you fucking talking about?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> It has to do with the destruction of the family.....single teenage girls raising young males..... we reached that point earlier...in the 1960s, because we didn't get set back by World War 2....they fell behind, and now are catching up, their social welfare programs have finally reached the point where they have destroyed their families...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Well, WW1 and WW2 had nothing to do with the destruction of the families in the UK.
> 
> Maggie "the bitch" Thatcher had A LOT TO DO with the destruction of the family.
> 
> How Britain changed under Margaret Thatcher. In 15 charts
> 
> "
> *Families*
> Ironically for a prime minister who focussed so much on family life, the 1980s saw the end of the traditional family unit for many. Divorce rates reached 13.4 per 1,000 married population in 1985, although that wasn't as high as the peak of 1994 after the recession."
> 
> Ah, Thatcher came in in 1979 and left in 1990 and the divorce rate rose during her time and after.
> 
> She got rid of things like council houses which allowed people to have a home, which helps when you want to keep a family.
> 
> Shotton, 1984: How Thatcher destroyed our town
> 
> She destroyed communities and didn't bother to try and help them.
> 
> Viewpoints: How did Thatcher change UK?
> 
> "The problem was that the Thatcher government did not care about those who lost out as a result of it and did not do enough to replenish the housing stock that had been sold off."
> 
> So, Thatcher was the problem, not wars that happened half a century or more before. Major didn't help either. The Tories like to destroy things that keep things good.
> 
> Who needs the police? The rich can pay for private security.
> Who needs education? The rich can pay for private education.
> Who needs health care? The rich can pay for private health care.
> 
> See the problem?
Click to expand...



The problem is the welfare state.      When single girls can have children without fathers and husbands, you get more violent crime as their daughters also have children without fathers....


----------



## harmonica

2aguy said:


> harmonica said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> harmonica said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> harmonica said:
> 
> 
> 
> answer the question:
> why is UK's murder rate 4 times lower?
> or France's/Germany's?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I answer that all the time.....World War 1 and 2 destroyed those countries, and drained millions of young men from their countries......   They are behind the United States in every way until now...they are catching up to the destruction of the family...which is creating violent sociopaths.
> 
> Their criminals do not use their illegal guns to murder as often or as easily as American criminals....due to cultural factors, not gun control.
> 
> What part of the fact that gun crime is going up in Britain is beyond you to understand....?  They are getting illegal guns in larger numbers...they need them, especially their 3rd world drug gangs, to control their drug territories....they just do not use them to murder...as I highlight in most of these posts...they shoot the legs, not to the chest or the head when they shoot...a cultural difference and even that is changing....
> 
> Read the book, "Life at the Bottom," because it shows how their welfare system and bureaucratic mess is creating the exact same situation you see in our violent, democrat controlled cities....and they are just getting there...while we were there back in the 1960s, since our country was untouched by the destruction of World war 1 and 2....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> ok--and I've stated this before--if it's a difference of UK vs American culture and not gun control, explain this:
> ==very pro-gun/lax gun control St Louis:--population 320,000... murders -199
> ==very gun controlled NYC population 8.6 *MILLION...  *murders-300 !!!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> very gun controlled Chicago and LA lower murder rates than very pro-gun STL
> *
> SAME country*!!!!!  SAME cultures
> 
> St. Louis homicide statistics for 2017
> 2017 was record-low for homicides in New York City, with NYPD logging lowest number in nearly 70 years - NY Daily News
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Wrong....St. Louis, like chicago, lets violent gun criminals out of prison....you have been shown this over and over againg...in all the cities where gun crime is through the roof you have democrat policies allowing criminals out of prison....New York had Guilliani, who locked them up and his police policies are still in place...
> 
> It isn't normal, law abiding gun owners committing the crime....... when you keep letting the violent criminals out on bail, and out of jail, you get more gun murder...
> 
> You have missed the truth about this issue.
> 
> Mayor of St. Louis - Wikipedia
> 
> 
> Rise in Murders Has St. Louis Debating Why
> 
> Jennifer M. Joyce, the city’s circuit attorney, or prosecutor, an elected position, complains that in St. Louis, *the illegal possession of a gun is too often “a crime without a consequence,” *making it difficult to stop confrontation from turning lethal.
> 
> At the same time, deeper social roots of violence such as addiction and unemployment continue unchecked. *And city officials also cite what they call a “Ferguson effect,”* an increase in crime last year as police officers were diverted to control protests after a white officer shot and killed Michael Brown, an unarmed black teenager in the nearby suburb on Aug. 9.
> 
> -----------
> 
> *Now, an overstretched department is forced to pick one neighborhood at a time to flood with officers. *Last month, Chief Dotson even asked the state highway patrol if it could lend a dozen men to help watch downtown streets; the agency declined.
> ----
> *When the police discover a gun in a car with several passengers, including some with felony records, but no one admits to owning the gun, criminal charges are often impossible, Mr. Rosenfeld said.*
> 
> *In addition, according to a 2014 study by Mr. Rosenfeld and his colleagues, a majority of those who are convicted of illegally possessing a gun but not caught using it in a crime receive probation rather than jail time. Gun laws and enforcement are stiffer in many other cities.*
> 
> Violence down in St. Louis but homicides hold steady. Are tougher penalties for gun crimes the answer?
> But many challenges remain, official said. The department is still down more than 130 officers. Witnesses to crimes remain reluctant to come forward for fear of retaliation, making it difficult to close cases. And a lack of state laws to deter gun crimes has forced the police to turn to federal courts to indict some suspects.
> 
> On Tuesday, Edwards made a new pitch: He wants to see the mandatory minimum sentence for armed criminal action raised from its current ceiling of three years to at least 15 years for nonfatal shootings, and 25 years for fatal shootings.
> 
> --------
> 
> D.C.
> 
> DC Won’t Allow Concealed Carry, But Takes It Easy On Armed, Violent Criminals
> 
> The problems stem from the city’s Youth Rehabilitation Act, legislation implemented in the 1980s to provide leniency to criminal offenders under the age of 22, even violent ones, with murder convictions being the only exception. It allows judges to disregard mandatory minimums meant to dissuade criminals, often to disastrous effects. The homicide rate spiked by 54 percent in the District in 2015, and 22 of the murderers were previously sentenced for crimes under the Youth Rehabilitation Act, according to an investigation by The Washington Post.
> 
> A man released on probation in 2015 under the law was involved in the July shooting death of Deeniquia Dodds, a transgender man. Just over 120 people previously sentenced under the Youth Rehabilitation Act have subsequently been convicted of murder since 2010.
> 
> “I knew they were going to let me off easy,” Tavon Pinkney, an 18-year old convicted of homicide in 2015, told The Washington Post regarding his previous sentencing under the youth law. “Nothing changed … They just gave me the Youth Act and let me go right back out there. They ain’t really care.”
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> key word '''DEBATING'' --that means you have no stats/proof/etc
> the cities have the same diversity/etc
> in fact, LA, CHi and NYC have  much denser populations!!!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> NYC had Guilliani....Chicago and St. Louis are letting violent criminals back on their streets....over and over again...
> 
> This is Chicago's problem...
> 
> A Detailed Look At Last Weekend's Chicago Gang Violence Shooting Victims - The Truth About Guns
> 
> Behind the scenes, Chicago Police put out a “Detailed Situational Report” (DSR) each weekday. On it, their “Data Warehouse” lists shooting incidents and murders along with guns recovered.
> Inside, the report details the names and descriptions of each of the victims and suspects, including any gang affiliations and the location of each incident. Furthermore, it shows each person’s criminal history, a description of their injuries and their Strategic Subject List score. Lastly, it contains a narrative of what happened.
> Because it’s Chicago — where support from “the community” typically hovers near zero — police seldom identify any suspects, much less make arrests. In fact, CPD has made arrests in only 13% of homicides so far in 2018.
> A casual glance through the confidential DSR reveals that virtually every victim of Chicago violence last weekend had gang ties. Either as a member of a gang or those (often young females) who hang out with gang members. The other glaring common thread: the victims themselves usually have criminal histories, too.
> In fact, poring over the fifteen pages of incidents (pasted end to end, that’s over 10 feet of incidents), only 21 of the 78 victims did _not_ have a criminal history. Meanwhile, those with arrest records garnered a total of 813 arrests between them.
> Eight hundred thirteen arrests.
> At the same time, Cook County’s infamous “catch and release” criminal justice system only managed to gain convictions in 120 of those 813 arrests.
> For example, one 23-year-old Black P. Stone gang member who was shot in the gut had 35 arrests and _zero convictions_. One perforated 66-year-old had 55 arrests!
> Another 32-year-old Four Corner Hustlers member, Charles Green, had 62 arrests, but he won’t re-offend. Not after he suffered multiple gunshot wounds that proved fatal. Green’s colorful past included arrests for dope, more dope, armed robbery, and a murder for which Cook County prosecutor Kim Foxx released him without charges.
> Tip for the day, besides avoiding Chicago: mommas, don’t let your girls hang out with gang members. Otherwise, they can find themselves caught in the crossfire, and they don’t always survive.
> Three young adult women without any criminal history or gang affiliations suffered gunshot wounds in a single incident at 1338 S. Millard Ave. Two offenders began shooting into “a large street gathering” wounding a total of seven.  Tragically, a 17-year-old girl named Jahnae Patterson died there from a wound to her face.
> --------------
> *Meanwhile, another victim at that same location, aged 14, remains in good condition.  How terrible, you say?  That same 14-year-old named Marion already has two arrests for car burglaries and a Strategic Subject List (SSL) score of 385.  The SSL score serves to indicate potential future criminal behavior.  As defined by the City of Chicago:*
> 
> Another case caught my eye. The victim, Miguel, a 19-year-old Hispanic male, told police he saw some people who recognized him emerge from a convenience store.  For some unknown reason (he says) they began chasing him in the 3900 block of S. Rockwell. In the alley behind the store, he heard gunshots and felt pain.
> 
> Before you start oozing sympathy for this poor teen, know that CPD says Miguel also moonlights as a Satan Disciples gang member and has built his SSL score to 500. With a SSL score that high, Darwin will probably catch up with him soon enough, assuming he survives this hospital visit.
> 
> --------
> 
> Baltimore...
> 
> 2017 homicide data provide insight into Baltimore's gun wars, police say
> 
> 
> 
> About 86 percent of the victims and 85 percent of the 118 suspects identified by police had prior criminal records. And about 46 percent of victims and 44 percent of suspects had previously been arrested for gun crimes, the data show.
> ----
> The average homicide victim in Baltimore in 2017 had 11 previous arrests on his record. About 73 percent had drug arrests, and nearly 50 percent had been arrested for a violent crime. About 30 percent were on parole or probation at the time they were killed, and more than 6 percent were on parole or probation for a gun crime.
> 
> Twenty percent of the victims were known members of a gang or drug crew, according to the data.
> 
> The average homicide suspect, meanwhile, had 9 previous arrests on his record. About 70 percent had drug arrests, and nearly half had been arrested for a violent crime. Nearly 36 percent were on parole or probation, and 6 percent were on parole or probation for a gun crime, the data show.
> 
> Eighteen percent of the suspects were known members of a gang or drug crew, according to the data.
> 
> Police did not know the motive behind nearly half of the killings, but at least 20 were related to retaliation, according to the data.
> 
> 
> =============
> 
> Chicago..
> 
> 
> Actual report on shootings in chicago...http://urbanlabs.uchicago.edu/attachments/store/2435a5d4658e2ca19f4f225b810ce0dbdb9231cbdb8d702e784087469ee3/UChicagoCrimeLab+Gun+Violence+in+Chicago+2016.pdf
> 
> 
> 1/19/17   Shooters in Chicago criminal record research from U of C
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _Nearly 40 percent of victims had more than 10 prior arrests, while the share with more than 20 prior arrests rose from 14 to 18 percent in 2016._
> 
> _The share of victims with a current or prior gang affiliation as recorded by CPD was about the same in both years (53 and 54 percent)._
> 
> And now the shooters . . .
> 
> _Individuals arrested for a homicide or shooting in Chicago in 2016 and 2015 had similar prior criminal records: around 90 percent had at least one prior arrest, approximately 50 percent had a prior arrest for a violent crime specifically, and almost 40 percent had a prior gun arrest._
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _The average person arrested for a homicide or shooting in both years had nearly 12 prior arrests, with almost 45 percent having had more than 10 prior arrests, and almost 20 percent having had more than 20 prior arrests._
> 
> Why is anyone in Chicago (or elsewhere) talking about gun control? Clearly, Chicago’s revolving door justice system is a failure that allows dangerous killers to roam the city streets.
> ============================
> 
> 
> 12/27/16  Gang shootings in Chicago over christmas..90% gang affiliated
> 
> 
> Gang Killers In Chicago Used Christmas Gatherings To Target Their Victims
> 
> Gang killers, knowing their targets would be home for Christmas, launched a bloody weekend of shootings in Chicago that left 11 dead and another 37 wounded.
> 
> "We now know that the majority of these shootings and homicides were targeted attacks by gangs against potential rivals who were at holiday gatherings. This was followed by several acts of retaliatory gun violence," police spokesman Anthony Guglielmi said in a statement Monday.
> 
> --------------
> 
> *The violence primarily occurred in areas with historical gang conflicts on the South and West Side of Chicago."*
> 
> 
> And this is what we keep telling you anti gunners and you refuse to believe it....
> 
> *"Ninety percent of those fatally wounded had gang affiliations, criminal histories and were pre-identified by the department's strategic subject algorithm as being a potential suspect or victim of gun violence," Guglielmi said.*
> ==
Click to expand...

again, you make no sense
STL is rated in the top 10 *most dangerous *cities--sometimes 1
Chi, NYC and LA not even in top ten
you have no argument there
explain this to me


----------



## 2aguy

harmonica said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> harmonica said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> harmonica said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> I answer that all the time.....World War 1 and 2 destroyed those countries, and drained millions of young men from their countries......   They are behind the United States in every way until now...they are catching up to the destruction of the family...which is creating violent sociopaths.
> 
> Their criminals do not use their illegal guns to murder as often or as easily as American criminals....due to cultural factors, not gun control.
> 
> What part of the fact that gun crime is going up in Britain is beyond you to understand....?  They are getting illegal guns in larger numbers...they need them, especially their 3rd world drug gangs, to control their drug territories....they just do not use them to murder...as I highlight in most of these posts...they shoot the legs, not to the chest or the head when they shoot...a cultural difference and even that is changing....
> 
> Read the book, "Life at the Bottom," because it shows how their welfare system and bureaucratic mess is creating the exact same situation you see in our violent, democrat controlled cities....and they are just getting there...while we were there back in the 1960s, since our country was untouched by the destruction of World war 1 and 2....
> 
> 
> 
> ok--and I've stated this before--if it's a difference of UK vs American culture and not gun control, explain this:
> ==very pro-gun/lax gun control St Louis:--population 320,000... murders -199
> ==very gun controlled NYC population 8.6 *MILLION...  *murders-300 !!!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> very gun controlled Chicago and LA lower murder rates than very pro-gun STL
> *
> SAME country*!!!!!  SAME cultures
> 
> St. Louis homicide statistics for 2017
> 2017 was record-low for homicides in New York City, with NYPD logging lowest number in nearly 70 years - NY Daily News
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Wrong....St. Louis, like chicago, lets violent gun criminals out of prison....you have been shown this over and over againg...in all the cities where gun crime is through the roof you have democrat policies allowing criminals out of prison....New York had Guilliani, who locked them up and his police policies are still in place...
> 
> It isn't normal, law abiding gun owners committing the crime....... when you keep letting the violent criminals out on bail, and out of jail, you get more gun murder...
> 
> You have missed the truth about this issue.
> 
> Mayor of St. Louis - Wikipedia
> 
> 
> Rise in Murders Has St. Louis Debating Why
> 
> Jennifer M. Joyce, the city’s circuit attorney, or prosecutor, an elected position, complains that in St. Louis, *the illegal possession of a gun is too often “a crime without a consequence,” *making it difficult to stop confrontation from turning lethal.
> 
> At the same time, deeper social roots of violence such as addiction and unemployment continue unchecked. *And city officials also cite what they call a “Ferguson effect,”* an increase in crime last year as police officers were diverted to control protests after a white officer shot and killed Michael Brown, an unarmed black teenager in the nearby suburb on Aug. 9.
> 
> -----------
> 
> *Now, an overstretched department is forced to pick one neighborhood at a time to flood with officers. *Last month, Chief Dotson even asked the state highway patrol if it could lend a dozen men to help watch downtown streets; the agency declined.
> ----
> *When the police discover a gun in a car with several passengers, including some with felony records, but no one admits to owning the gun, criminal charges are often impossible, Mr. Rosenfeld said.*
> 
> *In addition, according to a 2014 study by Mr. Rosenfeld and his colleagues, a majority of those who are convicted of illegally possessing a gun but not caught using it in a crime receive probation rather than jail time. Gun laws and enforcement are stiffer in many other cities.*
> 
> Violence down in St. Louis but homicides hold steady. Are tougher penalties for gun crimes the answer?
> But many challenges remain, official said. The department is still down more than 130 officers. Witnesses to crimes remain reluctant to come forward for fear of retaliation, making it difficult to close cases. And a lack of state laws to deter gun crimes has forced the police to turn to federal courts to indict some suspects.
> 
> On Tuesday, Edwards made a new pitch: He wants to see the mandatory minimum sentence for armed criminal action raised from its current ceiling of three years to at least 15 years for nonfatal shootings, and 25 years for fatal shootings.
> 
> --------
> 
> D.C.
> 
> DC Won’t Allow Concealed Carry, But Takes It Easy On Armed, Violent Criminals
> 
> The problems stem from the city’s Youth Rehabilitation Act, legislation implemented in the 1980s to provide leniency to criminal offenders under the age of 22, even violent ones, with murder convictions being the only exception. It allows judges to disregard mandatory minimums meant to dissuade criminals, often to disastrous effects. The homicide rate spiked by 54 percent in the District in 2015, and 22 of the murderers were previously sentenced for crimes under the Youth Rehabilitation Act, according to an investigation by The Washington Post.
> 
> A man released on probation in 2015 under the law was involved in the July shooting death of Deeniquia Dodds, a transgender man. Just over 120 people previously sentenced under the Youth Rehabilitation Act have subsequently been convicted of murder since 2010.
> 
> “I knew they were going to let me off easy,” Tavon Pinkney, an 18-year old convicted of homicide in 2015, told The Washington Post regarding his previous sentencing under the youth law. “Nothing changed … They just gave me the Youth Act and let me go right back out there. They ain’t really care.”
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> key word '''DEBATING'' --that means you have no stats/proof/etc
> the cities have the same diversity/etc
> in fact, LA, CHi and NYC have  much denser populations!!!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> NYC had Guilliani....Chicago and St. Louis are letting violent criminals back on their streets....over and over again...
> 
> This is Chicago's problem...
> 
> A Detailed Look At Last Weekend's Chicago Gang Violence Shooting Victims - The Truth About Guns
> 
> Behind the scenes, Chicago Police put out a “Detailed Situational Report” (DSR) each weekday. On it, their “Data Warehouse” lists shooting incidents and murders along with guns recovered.
> Inside, the report details the names and descriptions of each of the victims and suspects, including any gang affiliations and the location of each incident. Furthermore, it shows each person’s criminal history, a description of their injuries and their Strategic Subject List score. Lastly, it contains a narrative of what happened.
> Because it’s Chicago — where support from “the community” typically hovers near zero — police seldom identify any suspects, much less make arrests. In fact, CPD has made arrests in only 13% of homicides so far in 2018.
> A casual glance through the confidential DSR reveals that virtually every victim of Chicago violence last weekend had gang ties. Either as a member of a gang or those (often young females) who hang out with gang members. The other glaring common thread: the victims themselves usually have criminal histories, too.
> In fact, poring over the fifteen pages of incidents (pasted end to end, that’s over 10 feet of incidents), only 21 of the 78 victims did _not_ have a criminal history. Meanwhile, those with arrest records garnered a total of 813 arrests between them.
> Eight hundred thirteen arrests.
> At the same time, Cook County’s infamous “catch and release” criminal justice system only managed to gain convictions in 120 of those 813 arrests.
> For example, one 23-year-old Black P. Stone gang member who was shot in the gut had 35 arrests and _zero convictions_. One perforated 66-year-old had 55 arrests!
> Another 32-year-old Four Corner Hustlers member, Charles Green, had 62 arrests, but he won’t re-offend. Not after he suffered multiple gunshot wounds that proved fatal. Green’s colorful past included arrests for dope, more dope, armed robbery, and a murder for which Cook County prosecutor Kim Foxx released him without charges.
> Tip for the day, besides avoiding Chicago: mommas, don’t let your girls hang out with gang members. Otherwise, they can find themselves caught in the crossfire, and they don’t always survive.
> Three young adult women without any criminal history or gang affiliations suffered gunshot wounds in a single incident at 1338 S. Millard Ave. Two offenders began shooting into “a large street gathering” wounding a total of seven.  Tragically, a 17-year-old girl named Jahnae Patterson died there from a wound to her face.
> --------------
> *Meanwhile, another victim at that same location, aged 14, remains in good condition.  How terrible, you say?  That same 14-year-old named Marion already has two arrests for car burglaries and a Strategic Subject List (SSL) score of 385.  The SSL score serves to indicate potential future criminal behavior.  As defined by the City of Chicago:*
> 
> Another case caught my eye. The victim, Miguel, a 19-year-old Hispanic male, told police he saw some people who recognized him emerge from a convenience store.  For some unknown reason (he says) they began chasing him in the 3900 block of S. Rockwell. In the alley behind the store, he heard gunshots and felt pain.
> 
> Before you start oozing sympathy for this poor teen, know that CPD says Miguel also moonlights as a Satan Disciples gang member and has built his SSL score to 500. With a SSL score that high, Darwin will probably catch up with him soon enough, assuming he survives this hospital visit.
> 
> --------
> 
> Baltimore...
> 
> 2017 homicide data provide insight into Baltimore's gun wars, police say
> 
> 
> 
> About 86 percent of the victims and 85 percent of the 118 suspects identified by police had prior criminal records. And about 46 percent of victims and 44 percent of suspects had previously been arrested for gun crimes, the data show.
> ----
> The average homicide victim in Baltimore in 2017 had 11 previous arrests on his record. About 73 percent had drug arrests, and nearly 50 percent had been arrested for a violent crime. About 30 percent were on parole or probation at the time they were killed, and more than 6 percent were on parole or probation for a gun crime.
> 
> Twenty percent of the victims were known members of a gang or drug crew, according to the data.
> 
> The average homicide suspect, meanwhile, had 9 previous arrests on his record. About 70 percent had drug arrests, and nearly half had been arrested for a violent crime. Nearly 36 percent were on parole or probation, and 6 percent were on parole or probation for a gun crime, the data show.
> 
> Eighteen percent of the suspects were known members of a gang or drug crew, according to the data.
> 
> Police did not know the motive behind nearly half of the killings, but at least 20 were related to retaliation, according to the data.
> 
> 
> =============
> 
> Chicago..
> 
> 
> Actual report on shootings in chicago...http://urbanlabs.uchicago.edu/attachments/store/2435a5d4658e2ca19f4f225b810ce0dbdb9231cbdb8d702e784087469ee3/UChicagoCrimeLab+Gun+Violence+in+Chicago+2016.pdf
> 
> 
> 1/19/17   Shooters in Chicago criminal record research from U of C
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _Nearly 40 percent of victims had more than 10 prior arrests, while the share with more than 20 prior arrests rose from 14 to 18 percent in 2016._
> 
> _The share of victims with a current or prior gang affiliation as recorded by CPD was about the same in both years (53 and 54 percent)._
> 
> And now the shooters . . .
> 
> _Individuals arrested for a homicide or shooting in Chicago in 2016 and 2015 had similar prior criminal records: around 90 percent had at least one prior arrest, approximately 50 percent had a prior arrest for a violent crime specifically, and almost 40 percent had a prior gun arrest._
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _The average person arrested for a homicide or shooting in both years had nearly 12 prior arrests, with almost 45 percent having had more than 10 prior arrests, and almost 20 percent having had more than 20 prior arrests._
> 
> Why is anyone in Chicago (or elsewhere) talking about gun control? Clearly, Chicago’s revolving door justice system is a failure that allows dangerous killers to roam the city streets.
> ============================
> 
> 
> 12/27/16  Gang shootings in Chicago over christmas..90% gang affiliated
> 
> 
> Gang Killers In Chicago Used Christmas Gatherings To Target Their Victims
> 
> Gang killers, knowing their targets would be home for Christmas, launched a bloody weekend of shootings in Chicago that left 11 dead and another 37 wounded.
> 
> "We now know that the majority of these shootings and homicides were targeted attacks by gangs against potential rivals who were at holiday gatherings. This was followed by several acts of retaliatory gun violence," police spokesman Anthony Guglielmi said in a statement Monday.
> 
> --------------
> 
> *The violence primarily occurred in areas with historical gang conflicts on the South and West Side of Chicago."*
> 
> 
> And this is what we keep telling you anti gunners and you refuse to believe it....
> 
> *"Ninety percent of those fatally wounded had gang affiliations, criminal histories and were pre-identified by the department's strategic subject algorithm as being a potential suspect or victim of gun violence," Guglielmi said.*
> ==
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> again, you make no sense
> STL is rated in the top 10 *most dangerous *cities--sometimes 1
> Chi, NYC and LA not even in top ten
> you have no argument there
> explain this to me
Click to expand...



Yes....I showed you why, they let violent gun criminals out on bail and out of jail, over and over again so they won't be perceived as racists...dittos Chicago.....

Baltimore has the same extreme gun control as Chicago and New York, and a tiny population......and higher gun murder numbers than New York or L.A.....

New York had the police techniques of Rudy Guilliani and his police Comissioner that they are still using...Chicago is not.....Baltimore is not, D.C. is not...


----------



## harmonica

2aguy said:


> harmonica said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> harmonica said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> harmonica said:
> 
> 
> 
> ok--and I've stated this before--if it's a difference of UK vs American culture and not gun control, explain this:
> ==very pro-gun/lax gun control St Louis:--population 320,000... murders -199
> ==very gun controlled NYC population 8.6 *MILLION...  *murders-300 !!!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> very gun controlled Chicago and LA lower murder rates than very pro-gun STL
> *
> SAME country*!!!!!  SAME cultures
> 
> St. Louis homicide statistics for 2017
> 2017 was record-low for homicides in New York City, with NYPD logging lowest number in nearly 70 years - NY Daily News
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wrong....St. Louis, like chicago, lets violent gun criminals out of prison....you have been shown this over and over againg...in all the cities where gun crime is through the roof you have democrat policies allowing criminals out of prison....New York had Guilliani, who locked them up and his police policies are still in place...
> 
> It isn't normal, law abiding gun owners committing the crime....... when you keep letting the violent criminals out on bail, and out of jail, you get more gun murder...
> 
> You have missed the truth about this issue.
> 
> Mayor of St. Louis - Wikipedia
> 
> 
> Rise in Murders Has St. Louis Debating Why
> 
> Jennifer M. Joyce, the city’s circuit attorney, or prosecutor, an elected position, complains that in St. Louis, *the illegal possession of a gun is too often “a crime without a consequence,” *making it difficult to stop confrontation from turning lethal.
> 
> At the same time, deeper social roots of violence such as addiction and unemployment continue unchecked. *And city officials also cite what they call a “Ferguson effect,”* an increase in crime last year as police officers were diverted to control protests after a white officer shot and killed Michael Brown, an unarmed black teenager in the nearby suburb on Aug. 9.
> 
> -----------
> 
> *Now, an overstretched department is forced to pick one neighborhood at a time to flood with officers. *Last month, Chief Dotson even asked the state highway patrol if it could lend a dozen men to help watch downtown streets; the agency declined.
> ----
> *When the police discover a gun in a car with several passengers, including some with felony records, but no one admits to owning the gun, criminal charges are often impossible, Mr. Rosenfeld said.*
> 
> *In addition, according to a 2014 study by Mr. Rosenfeld and his colleagues, a majority of those who are convicted of illegally possessing a gun but not caught using it in a crime receive probation rather than jail time. Gun laws and enforcement are stiffer in many other cities.*
> 
> Violence down in St. Louis but homicides hold steady. Are tougher penalties for gun crimes the answer?
> But many challenges remain, official said. The department is still down more than 130 officers. Witnesses to crimes remain reluctant to come forward for fear of retaliation, making it difficult to close cases. And a lack of state laws to deter gun crimes has forced the police to turn to federal courts to indict some suspects.
> 
> On Tuesday, Edwards made a new pitch: He wants to see the mandatory minimum sentence for armed criminal action raised from its current ceiling of three years to at least 15 years for nonfatal shootings, and 25 years for fatal shootings.
> 
> --------
> 
> D.C.
> 
> DC Won’t Allow Concealed Carry, But Takes It Easy On Armed, Violent Criminals
> 
> The problems stem from the city’s Youth Rehabilitation Act, legislation implemented in the 1980s to provide leniency to criminal offenders under the age of 22, even violent ones, with murder convictions being the only exception. It allows judges to disregard mandatory minimums meant to dissuade criminals, often to disastrous effects. The homicide rate spiked by 54 percent in the District in 2015, and 22 of the murderers were previously sentenced for crimes under the Youth Rehabilitation Act, according to an investigation by The Washington Post.
> 
> A man released on probation in 2015 under the law was involved in the July shooting death of Deeniquia Dodds, a transgender man. Just over 120 people previously sentenced under the Youth Rehabilitation Act have subsequently been convicted of murder since 2010.
> 
> “I knew they were going to let me off easy,” Tavon Pinkney, an 18-year old convicted of homicide in 2015, told The Washington Post regarding his previous sentencing under the youth law. “Nothing changed … They just gave me the Youth Act and let me go right back out there. They ain’t really care.”
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> key word '''DEBATING'' --that means you have no stats/proof/etc
> the cities have the same diversity/etc
> in fact, LA, CHi and NYC have  much denser populations!!!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> NYC had Guilliani....Chicago and St. Louis are letting violent criminals back on their streets....over and over again...
> 
> This is Chicago's problem...
> 
> A Detailed Look At Last Weekend's Chicago Gang Violence Shooting Victims - The Truth About Guns
> 
> Behind the scenes, Chicago Police put out a “Detailed Situational Report” (DSR) each weekday. On it, their “Data Warehouse” lists shooting incidents and murders along with guns recovered.
> Inside, the report details the names and descriptions of each of the victims and suspects, including any gang affiliations and the location of each incident. Furthermore, it shows each person’s criminal history, a description of their injuries and their Strategic Subject List score. Lastly, it contains a narrative of what happened.
> Because it’s Chicago — where support from “the community” typically hovers near zero — police seldom identify any suspects, much less make arrests. In fact, CPD has made arrests in only 13% of homicides so far in 2018.
> A casual glance through the confidential DSR reveals that virtually every victim of Chicago violence last weekend had gang ties. Either as a member of a gang or those (often young females) who hang out with gang members. The other glaring common thread: the victims themselves usually have criminal histories, too.
> In fact, poring over the fifteen pages of incidents (pasted end to end, that’s over 10 feet of incidents), only 21 of the 78 victims did _not_ have a criminal history. Meanwhile, those with arrest records garnered a total of 813 arrests between them.
> Eight hundred thirteen arrests.
> At the same time, Cook County’s infamous “catch and release” criminal justice system only managed to gain convictions in 120 of those 813 arrests.
> For example, one 23-year-old Black P. Stone gang member who was shot in the gut had 35 arrests and _zero convictions_. One perforated 66-year-old had 55 arrests!
> Another 32-year-old Four Corner Hustlers member, Charles Green, had 62 arrests, but he won’t re-offend. Not after he suffered multiple gunshot wounds that proved fatal. Green’s colorful past included arrests for dope, more dope, armed robbery, and a murder for which Cook County prosecutor Kim Foxx released him without charges.
> Tip for the day, besides avoiding Chicago: mommas, don’t let your girls hang out with gang members. Otherwise, they can find themselves caught in the crossfire, and they don’t always survive.
> Three young adult women without any criminal history or gang affiliations suffered gunshot wounds in a single incident at 1338 S. Millard Ave. Two offenders began shooting into “a large street gathering” wounding a total of seven.  Tragically, a 17-year-old girl named Jahnae Patterson died there from a wound to her face.
> --------------
> *Meanwhile, another victim at that same location, aged 14, remains in good condition.  How terrible, you say?  That same 14-year-old named Marion already has two arrests for car burglaries and a Strategic Subject List (SSL) score of 385.  The SSL score serves to indicate potential future criminal behavior.  As defined by the City of Chicago:*
> 
> Another case caught my eye. The victim, Miguel, a 19-year-old Hispanic male, told police he saw some people who recognized him emerge from a convenience store.  For some unknown reason (he says) they began chasing him in the 3900 block of S. Rockwell. In the alley behind the store, he heard gunshots and felt pain.
> 
> Before you start oozing sympathy for this poor teen, know that CPD says Miguel also moonlights as a Satan Disciples gang member and has built his SSL score to 500. With a SSL score that high, Darwin will probably catch up with him soon enough, assuming he survives this hospital visit.
> 
> --------
> 
> Baltimore...
> 
> 2017 homicide data provide insight into Baltimore's gun wars, police say
> 
> 
> 
> About 86 percent of the victims and 85 percent of the 118 suspects identified by police had prior criminal records. And about 46 percent of victims and 44 percent of suspects had previously been arrested for gun crimes, the data show.
> ----
> The average homicide victim in Baltimore in 2017 had 11 previous arrests on his record. About 73 percent had drug arrests, and nearly 50 percent had been arrested for a violent crime. About 30 percent were on parole or probation at the time they were killed, and more than 6 percent were on parole or probation for a gun crime.
> 
> Twenty percent of the victims were known members of a gang or drug crew, according to the data.
> 
> The average homicide suspect, meanwhile, had 9 previous arrests on his record. About 70 percent had drug arrests, and nearly half had been arrested for a violent crime. Nearly 36 percent were on parole or probation, and 6 percent were on parole or probation for a gun crime, the data show.
> 
> Eighteen percent of the suspects were known members of a gang or drug crew, according to the data.
> 
> Police did not know the motive behind nearly half of the killings, but at least 20 were related to retaliation, according to the data.
> 
> 
> =============
> 
> Chicago..
> 
> 
> Actual report on shootings in chicago...http://urbanlabs.uchicago.edu/attachments/store/2435a5d4658e2ca19f4f225b810ce0dbdb9231cbdb8d702e784087469ee3/UChicagoCrimeLab+Gun+Violence+in+Chicago+2016.pdf
> 
> 
> 1/19/17   Shooters in Chicago criminal record research from U of C
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _Nearly 40 percent of victims had more than 10 prior arrests, while the share with more than 20 prior arrests rose from 14 to 18 percent in 2016._
> 
> _The share of victims with a current or prior gang affiliation as recorded by CPD was about the same in both years (53 and 54 percent)._
> 
> And now the shooters . . .
> 
> _Individuals arrested for a homicide or shooting in Chicago in 2016 and 2015 had similar prior criminal records: around 90 percent had at least one prior arrest, approximately 50 percent had a prior arrest for a violent crime specifically, and almost 40 percent had a prior gun arrest._
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _The average person arrested for a homicide or shooting in both years had nearly 12 prior arrests, with almost 45 percent having had more than 10 prior arrests, and almost 20 percent having had more than 20 prior arrests._
> 
> Why is anyone in Chicago (or elsewhere) talking about gun control? Clearly, Chicago’s revolving door justice system is a failure that allows dangerous killers to roam the city streets.
> ============================
> 
> 
> 12/27/16  Gang shootings in Chicago over christmas..90% gang affiliated
> 
> 
> Gang Killers In Chicago Used Christmas Gatherings To Target Their Victims
> 
> Gang killers, knowing their targets would be home for Christmas, launched a bloody weekend of shootings in Chicago that left 11 dead and another 37 wounded.
> 
> "We now know that the majority of these shootings and homicides were targeted attacks by gangs against potential rivals who were at holiday gatherings. This was followed by several acts of retaliatory gun violence," police spokesman Anthony Guglielmi said in a statement Monday.
> 
> --------------
> 
> *The violence primarily occurred in areas with historical gang conflicts on the South and West Side of Chicago."*
> 
> 
> And this is what we keep telling you anti gunners and you refuse to believe it....
> 
> *"Ninety percent of those fatally wounded had gang affiliations, criminal histories and were pre-identified by the department's strategic subject algorithm as being a potential suspect or victim of gun violence," Guglielmi said.*
> ==
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> again, you make no sense
> STL is rated in the top 10 *most dangerous *cities--sometimes 1
> Chi, NYC and LA not even in top ten
> you have no argument there
> explain this to me
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Yes....I showed you why, they let violent gun criminals out on bail and out of jail, over and over again so they won't be perceived as racists...dittos Chicago.....
> 
> Baltimore has the same extreme gun control as Chicago and New York, and a tiny population......and higher gun murder numbers than New York or L.A.....
> 
> New York had the police techniques of Rudy Guilliani and his police Comissioner that they are still using...Chicago is not.....Baltimore is not, D.C. is not...
Click to expand...

Germany ,France, and England = lower murder rates with very strict gun control 
NYCity 8.6 MILLION people 

.....final--you need to attack the problem with MULTIPLE ways--and gun control MUST be one of those


----------



## idb

2aguy said:


> idb said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> idb said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> 
> Don't I? How the fuck would you know?
> 
> The point I was making, and somehow it managed to slip massively past you, was that you said that the death of so many males caused families to break up, which then led to social problems, and therefore by the time the 2000s came along, and all this violence, the widowers of those who died in WW1 were probably dead, and widowers of WW2 were probably in their 80s or 90s.
> 
> So how the FUCK does that impact the 2000s?
> 
> Can you please explain how a person dying in WW1 impacted the crime rate going up in the 2000s?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No...moron, that isn't what I said... I said the destruction and death of the Two World Wars, and now that I think of it, the Depression, slowed down their society advancing the way the U.S. did....   So, moron, you have the death and destruction of World War 1, and it's aftermath, the Depression, and then World War 2.....major, catastrophic events....... and they slowed down those societies in Europe......  now you have the social welfare states wrecking the family structures in those countries, allowing young teenage girls to have children without husbands, and fathers for those children, so the young males have no one to raise them into young men....   And you are now seeing the effects of that in the increasing violence in those societies, especially Britain.....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> If your reasoning about Britain being battered in two world wars (and now you throw in the Depression) causing crime rates to rise is true, then why has the US been so far ahead of them in this regard for so long?
> Especially when, in your reasoning, they have been insulated from all this mayhem and living in a land of milk and honey.
> Are you saying that Americans are just naturally bigger arseholes than the Brits?
> 
> Why do you hate Americans?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Our society didn't get hit with the destruction, we had a booming post War economy with stable families...it wasn't until the 1960s where we had the Great Society destroy those families...especially minority families in our democrat party controlled cities....  That is when single teenage girls could have children without fathers in the home.....and from the 1960s going forward you had the huge crime problem here.......Britain is just now starting that violence problem....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> So....I think I might understand now.
> Correct me if I've got it wrong.
> 
> In the UK, women who grew up during the World Wars and Depression are just starting to have children.
> The children don't have fathers because all the men were killed in the War.
> Also, they didn't have children before now because the place was a wreck...as well as all the men being dead.
> The children are now out on a murderous rampage throughout the country.
> 
> It all makes perfect sense now.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> No....moron.   The British culture was still intact right after the war so they still had family structures in place..... then they started their social welfare state which allowed young girls to have children without husbands and fathers...
Click to expand...

So where did the issue with all the men being killed come into it...I'm sure you brought that into your well-reasoned argument earlier on.


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## frigidweirdo

2aguy said:


> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
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> 
> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tommy Tainant said:
> 
> 
> 
> Fascinating. How has the US managed to avoid the single mother problem ?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We haven't, you moron, which is why we have full prisons, and in our democrat party cities we have high gun murder rates.....that is what I keep telling you.......
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> So, the UK has an increase in violent crime in the 2000s because of the impact of WW1 and WW2. Yet the US which avoided a lot of that suffering on the home front has a much higher murder rate.
> 
> What are you fucking talking about?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> It has to do with the destruction of the family.....single teenage girls raising young males..... we reached that point earlier...in the 1960s, because we didn't get set back by World War 2....they fell behind, and now are catching up, their social welfare programs have finally reached the point where they have destroyed their families...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Well, WW1 and WW2 had nothing to do with the destruction of the families in the UK.
> 
> Maggie "the bitch" Thatcher had A LOT TO DO with the destruction of the family.
> 
> How Britain changed under Margaret Thatcher. In 15 charts
> 
> "
> *Families*
> Ironically for a prime minister who focussed so much on family life, the 1980s saw the end of the traditional family unit for many. Divorce rates reached 13.4 per 1,000 married population in 1985, although that wasn't as high as the peak of 1994 after the recession."
> 
> Ah, Thatcher came in in 1979 and left in 1990 and the divorce rate rose during her time and after.
> 
> She got rid of things like council houses which allowed people to have a home, which helps when you want to keep a family.
> 
> Shotton, 1984: How Thatcher destroyed our town
> 
> She destroyed communities and didn't bother to try and help them.
> 
> Viewpoints: How did Thatcher change UK?
> 
> "The problem was that the Thatcher government did not care about those who lost out as a result of it and did not do enough to replenish the housing stock that had been sold off."
> 
> So, Thatcher was the problem, not wars that happened half a century or more before. Major didn't help either. The Tories like to destroy things that keep things good.
> 
> Who needs the police? The rich can pay for private security.
> Who needs education? The rich can pay for private education.
> Who needs health care? The rich can pay for private health care.
> 
> See the problem?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> The problem is the welfare state.      When single girls can have children without fathers and husbands, you get more violent crime as their daughters also have children without fathers....
Click to expand...


Oh great, another thing pulled right out of the hat. Don't you think doing a little research before making ridiculous claims would be a good idea?







Teenage pregnancy by state in the US. Funny how it's the right wing states that have the most teenage pregnancy, isn't it? 

Surely it'd be the other way around, wouldn't right wing states give teenage mothers LESS MONEY?


----------



## Tommy Tainant

2aguy said:


> candycorn said:
> 
> 
> 
> Do they have 30,000+ gun deaths a year?  No.  They are doing something very right and we are doing something very wrong.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> they didn't have that many before they banned guns...now they have more gun crime after they banned guns for law abiding Brits....
> 
> Meanwhile...we have less gun crime as more Americans own and carry guns....
> 
> We went from 200 million guns in private hands in the 1990s and 4.7 million people carrying guns for self defense in 1997...to close to 400-600 million guns in private hands and over 17.25  million people carrying guns for self defense in 2018...guess what happened...
> 
> 
> --* gun murder down 49%*
> 
> *--gun crime down 75%*
> 
> *--violent crime down 72%*
> 
> Gun Homicide Rate Down 49% Since 1993 Peak; Public Unaware
> 
> Compared with 1993, the peak of U.S. gun homicides, the firearm homicide rate was 49% lower in 2010, and there were fewer deaths, even though the nation’s population grew. The victimization rate for other violent crimes with a firearm—assaults, robberies and sex crimes—was 75% lower in 2011 than in 1993. Violent non-fatal crime victimization overall (with or without a firearm) also is down markedly (72%) over two decades.
Click to expand...

You quote trends to justify your nonsense but the absoute figures arent moving. The UK death rate isnt in the same league as the US death rate. Primarily because it is not easy to get guns.
The US is the only developed nation that has this issue and is more dangerous than the  Albania which Hollywood demonised in the Taken movies. That is where you are.


----------



## 2aguy

Tommy Tainant said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> candycorn said:
> 
> 
> 
> Do they have 30,000+ gun deaths a year?  No.  They are doing something very right and we are doing something very wrong.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> they didn't have that many before they banned guns...now they have more gun crime after they banned guns for law abiding Brits....
> 
> Meanwhile...we have less gun crime as more Americans own and carry guns....
> 
> We went from 200 million guns in private hands in the 1990s and 4.7 million people carrying guns for self defense in 1997...to close to 400-600 million guns in private hands and over 17.25  million people carrying guns for self defense in 2018...guess what happened...
> 
> 
> --* gun murder down 49%*
> 
> *--gun crime down 75%*
> 
> *--violent crime down 72%*
> 
> Gun Homicide Rate Down 49% Since 1993 Peak; Public Unaware
> 
> Compared with 1993, the peak of U.S. gun homicides, the firearm homicide rate was 49% lower in 2010, and there were fewer deaths, even though the nation’s population grew. The victimization rate for other violent crimes with a firearm—assaults, robberies and sex crimes—was 75% lower in 2011 than in 1993. Violent non-fatal crime victimization overall (with or without a firearm) also is down markedly (72%) over two decades.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You quote trends to justify your nonsense but the absoute figures arent moving. The UK death rate isnt in the same league as the US death rate. Primarily because it is not easy to get guns.
> The US is the only developed nation that has this issue and is more dangerous than the  Albania which Hollywood demonised in the Taken movies. That is where you are.
Click to expand...



If it isn't easy to get guns why is your gun crime rate going up?   Criminals get illegal guns otherwise your gun crime rate wouldn't be going up, 42% in London, 23% across England and Wales in 2016......which means they have guns, they just don't use them to commit murder.....they shoot to wound as punishment or intimidation, they don't shoot to kill.


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## 2aguy

frigidweirdo said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
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> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> We haven't, you moron, which is why we have full prisons, and in our democrat party cities we have high gun murder rates.....that is what I keep telling you.......
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So, the UK has an increase in violent crime in the 2000s because of the impact of WW1 and WW2. Yet the US which avoided a lot of that suffering on the home front has a much higher murder rate.
> 
> What are you fucking talking about?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> It has to do with the destruction of the family.....single teenage girls raising young males..... we reached that point earlier...in the 1960s, because we didn't get set back by World War 2....they fell behind, and now are catching up, their social welfare programs have finally reached the point where they have destroyed their families...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Well, WW1 and WW2 had nothing to do with the destruction of the families in the UK.
> 
> Maggie "the bitch" Thatcher had A LOT TO DO with the destruction of the family.
> 
> How Britain changed under Margaret Thatcher. In 15 charts
> 
> "
> *Families*
> Ironically for a prime minister who focussed so much on family life, the 1980s saw the end of the traditional family unit for many. Divorce rates reached 13.4 per 1,000 married population in 1985, although that wasn't as high as the peak of 1994 after the recession."
> 
> Ah, Thatcher came in in 1979 and left in 1990 and the divorce rate rose during her time and after.
> 
> She got rid of things like council houses which allowed people to have a home, which helps when you want to keep a family.
> 
> Shotton, 1984: How Thatcher destroyed our town
> 
> She destroyed communities and didn't bother to try and help them.
> 
> Viewpoints: How did Thatcher change UK?
> 
> "The problem was that the Thatcher government did not care about those who lost out as a result of it and did not do enough to replenish the housing stock that had been sold off."
> 
> So, Thatcher was the problem, not wars that happened half a century or more before. Major didn't help either. The Tories like to destroy things that keep things good.
> 
> Who needs the police? The rich can pay for private security.
> Who needs education? The rich can pay for private education.
> Who needs health care? The rich can pay for private health care.
> 
> See the problem?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> The problem is the welfare state.      When single girls can have children without fathers and husbands, you get more violent crime as their daughters also have children without fathers....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Oh great, another thing pulled right out of the hat. Don't you think doing a little research before making ridiculous claims would be a good idea?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Teenage pregnancy by state in the US. Funny how it's the right wing states that have the most teenage pregnancy, isn't it?
> 
> Surely it'd be the other way around, wouldn't right wing states give teenage mothers LESS MONEY?
Click to expand...



Moron....out of wedlock birth rates are highest in the Black community, the community with the highest incarceration rates and the highest gun murder rates....are you really this dense?  The Border states....Hispanic out of wedlock birth rates.....

77% black births to single moms, 49% for Hispanic immigrants

*77% black births to single moms, 49% for Hispanic immigrants*

-------
The National Center for Health Statistics said that in 2015, 77.3 percent of non-immigrant black births were illegitimate. The national non-immigrant average is 42 percent, and it was 30 percent for whites.

The new numbers were in a Center for Immigration Studies analysis on the births to immigrants. That total is 32.7 percent, but to Hispanic immigrants it is 48.9 percent, according to Steven Camarota, the director of research for the Center for Immigration Studies.
---

_*There is good evidence that children born to unmarried parents are at higher risk of dropping out of high school, having run-ins with the law, and other negative social outcomes. This maybe especially true for children born to immigrants because of the challenges associated with adjusting to life in their parents' adopted country.*_


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## 2aguy

idb said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> idb said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> idb said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> No...moron, that isn't what I said... I said the destruction and death of the Two World Wars, and now that I think of it, the Depression, slowed down their society advancing the way the U.S. did....   So, moron, you have the death and destruction of World War 1, and it's aftermath, the Depression, and then World War 2.....major, catastrophic events....... and they slowed down those societies in Europe......  now you have the social welfare states wrecking the family structures in those countries, allowing young teenage girls to have children without husbands, and fathers for those children, so the young males have no one to raise them into young men....   And you are now seeing the effects of that in the increasing violence in those societies, especially Britain.....
> 
> 
> 
> If your reasoning about Britain being battered in two world wars (and now you throw in the Depression) causing crime rates to rise is true, then why has the US been so far ahead of them in this regard for so long?
> Especially when, in your reasoning, they have been insulated from all this mayhem and living in a land of milk and honey.
> Are you saying that Americans are just naturally bigger arseholes than the Brits?
> 
> Why do you hate Americans?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Our society didn't get hit with the destruction, we had a booming post War economy with stable families...it wasn't until the 1960s where we had the Great Society destroy those families...especially minority families in our democrat party controlled cities....  That is when single teenage girls could have children without fathers in the home.....and from the 1960s going forward you had the huge crime problem here.......Britain is just now starting that violence problem....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> So....I think I might understand now.
> Correct me if I've got it wrong.
> 
> In the UK, women who grew up during the World Wars and Depression are just starting to have children.
> The children don't have fathers because all the men were killed in the War.
> Also, they didn't have children before now because the place was a wreck...as well as all the men being dead.
> The children are now out on a murderous rampage throughout the country.
> 
> It all makes perfect sense now.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> No....moron.   The British culture was still intact right after the war so they still had family structures in place..... then they started their social welfare state which allowed young girls to have children without husbands and fathers...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> So where did the issue with all the men being killed come into it...I'm sure you brought that into your well-reasoned argument earlier on.
Click to expand...



You had large numbers of young males killed in the wars....it slows down the growth of a society....both economically and culturally which is why Europe lagged behind the U.S....


----------



## 2aguy

harmonica said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> harmonica said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> harmonica said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Wrong....St. Louis, like chicago, lets violent gun criminals out of prison....you have been shown this over and over againg...in all the cities where gun crime is through the roof you have democrat policies allowing criminals out of prison....New York had Guilliani, who locked them up and his police policies are still in place...
> 
> It isn't normal, law abiding gun owners committing the crime....... when you keep letting the violent criminals out on bail, and out of jail, you get more gun murder...
> 
> You have missed the truth about this issue.
> 
> Mayor of St. Louis - Wikipedia
> 
> 
> Rise in Murders Has St. Louis Debating Why
> 
> Jennifer M. Joyce, the city’s circuit attorney, or prosecutor, an elected position, complains that in St. Louis, *the illegal possession of a gun is too often “a crime without a consequence,” *making it difficult to stop confrontation from turning lethal.
> 
> At the same time, deeper social roots of violence such as addiction and unemployment continue unchecked. *And city officials also cite what they call a “Ferguson effect,”* an increase in crime last year as police officers were diverted to control protests after a white officer shot and killed Michael Brown, an unarmed black teenager in the nearby suburb on Aug. 9.
> 
> -----------
> 
> *Now, an overstretched department is forced to pick one neighborhood at a time to flood with officers. *Last month, Chief Dotson even asked the state highway patrol if it could lend a dozen men to help watch downtown streets; the agency declined.
> ----
> *When the police discover a gun in a car with several passengers, including some with felony records, but no one admits to owning the gun, criminal charges are often impossible, Mr. Rosenfeld said.*
> 
> *In addition, according to a 2014 study by Mr. Rosenfeld and his colleagues, a majority of those who are convicted of illegally possessing a gun but not caught using it in a crime receive probation rather than jail time. Gun laws and enforcement are stiffer in many other cities.*
> 
> Violence down in St. Louis but homicides hold steady. Are tougher penalties for gun crimes the answer?
> But many challenges remain, official said. The department is still down more than 130 officers. Witnesses to crimes remain reluctant to come forward for fear of retaliation, making it difficult to close cases. And a lack of state laws to deter gun crimes has forced the police to turn to federal courts to indict some suspects.
> 
> On Tuesday, Edwards made a new pitch: He wants to see the mandatory minimum sentence for armed criminal action raised from its current ceiling of three years to at least 15 years for nonfatal shootings, and 25 years for fatal shootings.
> 
> --------
> 
> D.C.
> 
> DC Won’t Allow Concealed Carry, But Takes It Easy On Armed, Violent Criminals
> 
> The problems stem from the city’s Youth Rehabilitation Act, legislation implemented in the 1980s to provide leniency to criminal offenders under the age of 22, even violent ones, with murder convictions being the only exception. It allows judges to disregard mandatory minimums meant to dissuade criminals, often to disastrous effects. The homicide rate spiked by 54 percent in the District in 2015, and 22 of the murderers were previously sentenced for crimes under the Youth Rehabilitation Act, according to an investigation by The Washington Post.
> 
> A man released on probation in 2015 under the law was involved in the July shooting death of Deeniquia Dodds, a transgender man. Just over 120 people previously sentenced under the Youth Rehabilitation Act have subsequently been convicted of murder since 2010.
> 
> “I knew they were going to let me off easy,” Tavon Pinkney, an 18-year old convicted of homicide in 2015, told The Washington Post regarding his previous sentencing under the youth law. “Nothing changed … They just gave me the Youth Act and let me go right back out there. They ain’t really care.”
> 
> 
> 
> key word '''DEBATING'' --that means you have no stats/proof/etc
> the cities have the same diversity/etc
> in fact, LA, CHi and NYC have  much denser populations!!!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> NYC had Guilliani....Chicago and St. Louis are letting violent criminals back on their streets....over and over again...
> 
> This is Chicago's problem...
> 
> A Detailed Look At Last Weekend's Chicago Gang Violence Shooting Victims - The Truth About Guns
> 
> Behind the scenes, Chicago Police put out a “Detailed Situational Report” (DSR) each weekday. On it, their “Data Warehouse” lists shooting incidents and murders along with guns recovered.
> Inside, the report details the names and descriptions of each of the victims and suspects, including any gang affiliations and the location of each incident. Furthermore, it shows each person’s criminal history, a description of their injuries and their Strategic Subject List score. Lastly, it contains a narrative of what happened.
> Because it’s Chicago — where support from “the community” typically hovers near zero — police seldom identify any suspects, much less make arrests. In fact, CPD has made arrests in only 13% of homicides so far in 2018.
> A casual glance through the confidential DSR reveals that virtually every victim of Chicago violence last weekend had gang ties. Either as a member of a gang or those (often young females) who hang out with gang members. The other glaring common thread: the victims themselves usually have criminal histories, too.
> In fact, poring over the fifteen pages of incidents (pasted end to end, that’s over 10 feet of incidents), only 21 of the 78 victims did _not_ have a criminal history. Meanwhile, those with arrest records garnered a total of 813 arrests between them.
> Eight hundred thirteen arrests.
> At the same time, Cook County’s infamous “catch and release” criminal justice system only managed to gain convictions in 120 of those 813 arrests.
> For example, one 23-year-old Black P. Stone gang member who was shot in the gut had 35 arrests and _zero convictions_. One perforated 66-year-old had 55 arrests!
> Another 32-year-old Four Corner Hustlers member, Charles Green, had 62 arrests, but he won’t re-offend. Not after he suffered multiple gunshot wounds that proved fatal. Green’s colorful past included arrests for dope, more dope, armed robbery, and a murder for which Cook County prosecutor Kim Foxx released him without charges.
> Tip for the day, besides avoiding Chicago: mommas, don’t let your girls hang out with gang members. Otherwise, they can find themselves caught in the crossfire, and they don’t always survive.
> Three young adult women without any criminal history or gang affiliations suffered gunshot wounds in a single incident at 1338 S. Millard Ave. Two offenders began shooting into “a large street gathering” wounding a total of seven.  Tragically, a 17-year-old girl named Jahnae Patterson died there from a wound to her face.
> --------------
> *Meanwhile, another victim at that same location, aged 14, remains in good condition.  How terrible, you say?  That same 14-year-old named Marion already has two arrests for car burglaries and a Strategic Subject List (SSL) score of 385.  The SSL score serves to indicate potential future criminal behavior.  As defined by the City of Chicago:*
> 
> Another case caught my eye. The victim, Miguel, a 19-year-old Hispanic male, told police he saw some people who recognized him emerge from a convenience store.  For some unknown reason (he says) they began chasing him in the 3900 block of S. Rockwell. In the alley behind the store, he heard gunshots and felt pain.
> 
> Before you start oozing sympathy for this poor teen, know that CPD says Miguel also moonlights as a Satan Disciples gang member and has built his SSL score to 500. With a SSL score that high, Darwin will probably catch up with him soon enough, assuming he survives this hospital visit.
> 
> --------
> 
> Baltimore...
> 
> 2017 homicide data provide insight into Baltimore's gun wars, police say
> 
> 
> 
> About 86 percent of the victims and 85 percent of the 118 suspects identified by police had prior criminal records. And about 46 percent of victims and 44 percent of suspects had previously been arrested for gun crimes, the data show.
> ----
> The average homicide victim in Baltimore in 2017 had 11 previous arrests on his record. About 73 percent had drug arrests, and nearly 50 percent had been arrested for a violent crime. About 30 percent were on parole or probation at the time they were killed, and more than 6 percent were on parole or probation for a gun crime.
> 
> Twenty percent of the victims were known members of a gang or drug crew, according to the data.
> 
> The average homicide suspect, meanwhile, had 9 previous arrests on his record. About 70 percent had drug arrests, and nearly half had been arrested for a violent crime. Nearly 36 percent were on parole or probation, and 6 percent were on parole or probation for a gun crime, the data show.
> 
> Eighteen percent of the suspects were known members of a gang or drug crew, according to the data.
> 
> Police did not know the motive behind nearly half of the killings, but at least 20 were related to retaliation, according to the data.
> 
> 
> =============
> 
> Chicago..
> 
> 
> Actual report on shootings in chicago...http://urbanlabs.uchicago.edu/attachments/store/2435a5d4658e2ca19f4f225b810ce0dbdb9231cbdb8d702e784087469ee3/UChicagoCrimeLab+Gun+Violence+in+Chicago+2016.pdf
> 
> 
> 1/19/17   Shooters in Chicago criminal record research from U of C
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _Nearly 40 percent of victims had more than 10 prior arrests, while the share with more than 20 prior arrests rose from 14 to 18 percent in 2016._
> 
> _The share of victims with a current or prior gang affiliation as recorded by CPD was about the same in both years (53 and 54 percent)._
> 
> And now the shooters . . .
> 
> _Individuals arrested for a homicide or shooting in Chicago in 2016 and 2015 had similar prior criminal records: around 90 percent had at least one prior arrest, approximately 50 percent had a prior arrest for a violent crime specifically, and almost 40 percent had a prior gun arrest._
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _The average person arrested for a homicide or shooting in both years had nearly 12 prior arrests, with almost 45 percent having had more than 10 prior arrests, and almost 20 percent having had more than 20 prior arrests._
> 
> Why is anyone in Chicago (or elsewhere) talking about gun control? Clearly, Chicago’s revolving door justice system is a failure that allows dangerous killers to roam the city streets.
> ============================
> 
> 
> 12/27/16  Gang shootings in Chicago over christmas..90% gang affiliated
> 
> 
> Gang Killers In Chicago Used Christmas Gatherings To Target Their Victims
> 
> Gang killers, knowing their targets would be home for Christmas, launched a bloody weekend of shootings in Chicago that left 11 dead and another 37 wounded.
> 
> "We now know that the majority of these shootings and homicides were targeted attacks by gangs against potential rivals who were at holiday gatherings. This was followed by several acts of retaliatory gun violence," police spokesman Anthony Guglielmi said in a statement Monday.
> 
> --------------
> 
> *The violence primarily occurred in areas with historical gang conflicts on the South and West Side of Chicago."*
> 
> 
> And this is what we keep telling you anti gunners and you refuse to believe it....
> 
> *"Ninety percent of those fatally wounded had gang affiliations, criminal histories and were pre-identified by the department's strategic subject algorithm as being a potential suspect or victim of gun violence," Guglielmi said.*
> ==
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> again, you make no sense
> STL is rated in the top 10 *most dangerous *cities--sometimes 1
> Chi, NYC and LA not even in top ten
> you have no argument there
> explain this to me
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Yes....I showed you why, they let violent gun criminals out on bail and out of jail, over and over again so they won't be perceived as racists...dittos Chicago.....
> 
> Baltimore has the same extreme gun control as Chicago and New York, and a tiny population......and higher gun murder numbers than New York or L.A.....
> 
> New York had the police techniques of Rudy Guilliani and his police Comissioner that they are still using...Chicago is not.....Baltimore is not, D.C. is not...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Germany ,France, and England = lower murder rates with very strict gun control
> NYCity 8.6 MILLION people
> 
> .....final--you need to attack the problem with MULTIPLE ways--and gun control MUST be one of those
Click to expand...


Europe was always less violent than the U.S......and after Britain banned and confiscated guns they have more gun crime not less....and violence across Europe and Britain is growing, not going down.

You need to explain how gun murder went down 49%, gun crime went down 75%, and violent crime went down 72% as more Americans started to own and actually carry guns...and you can't....

And Chicago and Baltimore have extreme gun control and have more gun murder than New York..the difference?   New York had Rudy Guilliani and his police commissioner, and they are continuing to use their tactics to combat crime while Baltimore and Chicago let violent, repeat gun offenders out of jail over and over again.  I have shown you the revolving door policy for violent gun offenders in Chicago, it is also happening in Baltimore and St. Louis....

Criminal control is the issue, not gun control.  Do you really think that law abiding gun owners are doing the gun murder in these cities?   It is the repeat gun offenders who are allowed to go back into these democrat party controlled inner cities that rack up the body counts...not John and Jane Q. Citizen carrying guns for self defense.


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## Tommy Tainant

2aguy said:


> frigidweirdo said:
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> 2aguy said:
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> frigidweirdo said:
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> 2aguy said:
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> frigidweirdo said:
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> 
> 
> So, the UK has an increase in violent crime in the 2000s because of the impact of WW1 and WW2. Yet the US which avoided a lot of that suffering on the home front has a much higher murder rate.
> 
> What are you fucking talking about?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It has to do with the destruction of the family.....single teenage girls raising young males..... we reached that point earlier...in the 1960s, because we didn't get set back by World War 2....they fell behind, and now are catching up, their social welfare programs have finally reached the point where they have destroyed their families...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Well, WW1 and WW2 had nothing to do with the destruction of the families in the UK.
> 
> Maggie "the bitch" Thatcher had A LOT TO DO with the destruction of the family.
> 
> How Britain changed under Margaret Thatcher. In 15 charts
> 
> "
> *Families*
> Ironically for a prime minister who focussed so much on family life, the 1980s saw the end of the traditional family unit for many. Divorce rates reached 13.4 per 1,000 married population in 1985, although that wasn't as high as the peak of 1994 after the recession."
> 
> Ah, Thatcher came in in 1979 and left in 1990 and the divorce rate rose during her time and after.
> 
> She got rid of things like council houses which allowed people to have a home, which helps when you want to keep a family.
> 
> Shotton, 1984: How Thatcher destroyed our town
> 
> She destroyed communities and didn't bother to try and help them.
> 
> Viewpoints: How did Thatcher change UK?
> 
> "The problem was that the Thatcher government did not care about those who lost out as a result of it and did not do enough to replenish the housing stock that had been sold off."
> 
> So, Thatcher was the problem, not wars that happened half a century or more before. Major didn't help either. The Tories like to destroy things that keep things good.
> 
> Who needs the police? The rich can pay for private security.
> Who needs education? The rich can pay for private education.
> Who needs health care? The rich can pay for private health care.
> 
> See the problem?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> The problem is the welfare state.      When single girls can have children without fathers and husbands, you get more violent crime as their daughters also have children without fathers....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Oh great, another thing pulled right out of the hat. Don't you think doing a little research before making ridiculous claims would be a good idea?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Teenage pregnancy by state in the US. Funny how it's the right wing states that have the most teenage pregnancy, isn't it?
> 
> Surely it'd be the other way around, wouldn't right wing states give teenage mothers LESS MONEY?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Moron....out of wedlock birth rates are highest in the Black community, the community with the highest incarceration rates and the highest gun murder rates....are you really this dense?  The Border states....Hispanic out of wedlock birth rates.....
> 
> 77% black births to single moms, 49% for Hispanic immigrants
> 
> *77% black births to single moms, 49% for Hispanic immigrants*
> 
> -------
> The National Center for Health Statistics said that in 2015, 77.3 percent of non-immigrant black births were illegitimate. The national non-immigrant average is 42 percent, and it was 30 percent for whites.
> 
> The new numbers were in a Center for Immigration Studies analysis on the births to immigrants. That total is 32.7 percent, but to Hispanic immigrants it is 48.9 percent, according to Steven Camarota, the director of research for the Center for Immigration Studies.
> ---
> 
> _*There is good evidence that children born to unmarried parents are at higher risk of dropping out of high school, having run-ins with the law, and other negative social outcomes. This maybe especially true for children born to immigrants because of the challenges associated with adjusting to life in their parents' adopted country.*_
Click to expand...

There are signifcant numbers of single families in France . Germany and the UK. And yet our gun crime is a fraction of the US. What is the difference ? We have gun laws which restrict access to killing machines. Its not complicated mate.


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## Tommy Tainant

2aguy said:


> idb said:
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> 2aguy said:
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> idb said:
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> 2aguy said:
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> idb said:
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> 
> If your reasoning about Britain being battered in two world wars (and now you throw in the Depression) causing crime rates to rise is true, then why has the US been so far ahead of them in this regard for so long?
> Especially when, in your reasoning, they have been insulated from all this mayhem and living in a land of milk and honey.
> Are you saying that Americans are just naturally bigger arseholes than the Brits?
> 
> Why do you hate Americans?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Our society didn't get hit with the destruction, we had a booming post War economy with stable families...it wasn't until the 1960s where we had the Great Society destroy those families...especially minority families in our democrat party controlled cities....  That is when single teenage girls could have children without fathers in the home.....and from the 1960s going forward you had the huge crime problem here.......Britain is just now starting that violence problem....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> So....I think I might understand now.
> Correct me if I've got it wrong.
> 
> In the UK, women who grew up during the World Wars and Depression are just starting to have children.
> The children don't have fathers because all the men were killed in the War.
> Also, they didn't have children before now because the place was a wreck...as well as all the men being dead.
> The children are now out on a murderous rampage throughout the country.
> 
> It all makes perfect sense now.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> No....moron.   The British culture was still intact right after the war so they still had family structures in place..... then they started their social welfare state which allowed young girls to have children without husbands and fathers...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> So where did the issue with all the men being killed come into it...I'm sure you brought that into your well-reasoned argument earlier on.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> You had large numbers of young males killed in the wars....it slows down the growth of a society....both economically and culturally which is why Europe lagged behind the U.S....
Click to expand...

No, it was because we had to rebuild our whole infrastructure. There was no Dresden or Coventry in the US.


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## 2aguy

idb said:


> 2aguy said:
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> idb said:
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> idb said:
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> 2aguy said:
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> 
> No...moron, that isn't what I said... I said the destruction and death of the Two World Wars, and now that I think of it, the Depression, slowed down their society advancing the way the U.S. did....   So, moron, you have the death and destruction of World War 1, and it's aftermath, the Depression, and then World War 2.....major, catastrophic events....... and they slowed down those societies in Europe......  now you have the social welfare states wrecking the family structures in those countries, allowing young teenage girls to have children without husbands, and fathers for those children, so the young males have no one to raise them into young men....   And you are now seeing the effects of that in the increasing violence in those societies, especially Britain.....
> 
> 
> 
> If your reasoning about Britain being battered in two world wars (and now you throw in the Depression) causing crime rates to rise is true, then why has the US been so far ahead of them in this regard for so long?
> Especially when, in your reasoning, they have been insulated from all this mayhem and living in a land of milk and honey.
> Are you saying that Americans are just naturally bigger arseholes than the Brits?
> 
> Why do you hate Americans?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Our society didn't get hit with the destruction, we had a booming post War economy with stable families...it wasn't until the 1960s where we had the Great Society destroy those families...especially minority families in our democrat party controlled cities....  That is when single teenage girls could have children without fathers in the home.....and from the 1960s going forward you had the huge crime problem here.......Britain is just now starting that violence problem....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> So....I think I might understand now.
> Correct me if I've got it wrong.
> 
> In the UK, women who grew up during the World Wars and Depression are just starting to have children.
> The children don't have fathers because all the men were killed in the War.
> Also, they didn't have children before now because the place was a wreck...as well as all the men being dead.
> The children are now out on a murderous rampage throughout the country.
> 
> It all makes perfect sense now.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> No....moron.   The British culture was still intact right after the war so they still had family structures in place..... then they started their social welfare state which allowed young girls to have children without husbands and fathers...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> So where did the issue with all the men being killed come into it...I'm sure you brought that into your well-reasoned argument earlier on.
Click to expand...



It wasn't until the social welfare state came into being in Europe that the family began to break down.......

Post-war Societies | International Encyclopedia of the First World War (WW1)

Nevertheless, despite the upheaval (or perhaps even because of it), in the aftermath of war, many people felt a deep desire to return to “normal” (a concept that needs to be approached critically), to re-establish themselves within the framework of traditional family life. (Even in revolutionary Russia, there was an upsurge in marriages after the First World War. In Moscow, in 1919 – in the midst of the Civil War – there were 24,603 marriages, and in 1920 there were 21,363; in 1913, 10,093 marriages had been registered.)[3] *The desire to return to “normal” was reflected not only in a postwar upsurge in marriages, births and the reconstitution of conventional family life,* but also in the widespread pressure to remove women from their wartime employment and to return men to “their” jobs.[4] Here, too, domestic ideology was reinforced. Thus, in some respects, the First World War was more a conservative than a revolutionary force[5] as it manifested itself in postwar societies.

At the same time, the First World War led to what many regarded as an alarming breakdown of traditional moral standards. Divorce rates, while low compared to present-day levels, increased sharply in the wake of the war: in Germany, the number of divorces, which had averaged 15,633 annually between 1909 and 1913, peaked at 39,216 in 1921;[6] France saw a similar trend, rising from 15,450 divorces in 1913 to 29,156 in 1920 and 32,557 in 1921.[7] Further evidence of an apparent breakdown in moral standards was provided by rising crime levels – not least among women and youth.[8] Rising crime, anxiety about youth allegedly running wild after years without “the firm hand of the father”, and fears about the behaviour of soldiers returning from the front led many to conclude that the moral cement that had held society together was crumbling. As Jon Lawrence has observed of postwar Britain, there was widespread fear “that violence had slipped its chains – by the fear that the ex-servicemen, the general public, the state, or perhaps all three, had been irrevocably ‘brutalized’ by the mass carnage of four and a half years of war”.[9]


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## 2aguy

Tommy Tainant said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> 
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> 2aguy said:
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> 
> 
> 
> 
> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> 
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> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> It has to do with the destruction of the family.....single teenage girls raising young males..... we reached that point earlier...in the 1960s, because we didn't get set back by World War 2....they fell behind, and now are catching up, their social welfare programs have finally reached the point where they have destroyed their families...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well, WW1 and WW2 had nothing to do with the destruction of the families in the UK.
> 
> Maggie "the bitch" Thatcher had A LOT TO DO with the destruction of the family.
> 
> How Britain changed under Margaret Thatcher. In 15 charts
> 
> "
> *Families*
> Ironically for a prime minister who focussed so much on family life, the 1980s saw the end of the traditional family unit for many. Divorce rates reached 13.4 per 1,000 married population in 1985, although that wasn't as high as the peak of 1994 after the recession."
> 
> Ah, Thatcher came in in 1979 and left in 1990 and the divorce rate rose during her time and after.
> 
> She got rid of things like council houses which allowed people to have a home, which helps when you want to keep a family.
> 
> Shotton, 1984: How Thatcher destroyed our town
> 
> She destroyed communities and didn't bother to try and help them.
> 
> Viewpoints: How did Thatcher change UK?
> 
> "The problem was that the Thatcher government did not care about those who lost out as a result of it and did not do enough to replenish the housing stock that had been sold off."
> 
> So, Thatcher was the problem, not wars that happened half a century or more before. Major didn't help either. The Tories like to destroy things that keep things good.
> 
> Who needs the police? The rich can pay for private security.
> Who needs education? The rich can pay for private education.
> Who needs health care? The rich can pay for private health care.
> 
> See the problem?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> The problem is the welfare state.      When single girls can have children without fathers and husbands, you get more violent crime as their daughters also have children without fathers....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Oh great, another thing pulled right out of the hat. Don't you think doing a little research before making ridiculous claims would be a good idea?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Teenage pregnancy by state in the US. Funny how it's the right wing states that have the most teenage pregnancy, isn't it?
> 
> Surely it'd be the other way around, wouldn't right wing states give teenage mothers LESS MONEY?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Moron....out of wedlock birth rates are highest in the Black community, the community with the highest incarceration rates and the highest gun murder rates....are you really this dense?  The Border states....Hispanic out of wedlock birth rates.....
> 
> 77% black births to single moms, 49% for Hispanic immigrants
> 
> *77% black births to single moms, 49% for Hispanic immigrants*
> 
> -------
> The National Center for Health Statistics said that in 2015, 77.3 percent of non-immigrant black births were illegitimate. The national non-immigrant average is 42 percent, and it was 30 percent for whites.
> 
> The new numbers were in a Center for Immigration Studies analysis on the births to immigrants. That total is 32.7 percent, but to Hispanic immigrants it is 48.9 percent, according to Steven Camarota, the director of research for the Center for Immigration Studies.
> ---
> 
> _*There is good evidence that children born to unmarried parents are at higher risk of dropping out of high school, having run-ins with the law, and other negative social outcomes. This maybe especially true for children born to immigrants because of the challenges associated with adjusting to life in their parents' adopted country.*_
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> There are signifcant numbers of single families in France . Germany and the UK. And yet our gun crime is a fraction of the US. What is the difference ? We have gun laws which restrict access to killing machines. Its not complicated mate.
Click to expand...



Moron...... those countries are becoming more and more violent.....I have pointed out that they are behind because of the destruction of the 2 world wars....it took the social welfare state to destroy the families in those countries...and as I showed Frigidweirdo, single teenage girls raising young males drives the crime rate, not guns.


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## Tommy Tainant

2aguy said:


> Tommy Tainant said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well, WW1 and WW2 had nothing to do with the destruction of the families in the UK.
> 
> Maggie "the bitch" Thatcher had A LOT TO DO with the destruction of the family.
> 
> How Britain changed under Margaret Thatcher. In 15 charts
> 
> "
> *Families*
> Ironically for a prime minister who focussed so much on family life, the 1980s saw the end of the traditional family unit for many. Divorce rates reached 13.4 per 1,000 married population in 1985, although that wasn't as high as the peak of 1994 after the recession."
> 
> Ah, Thatcher came in in 1979 and left in 1990 and the divorce rate rose during her time and after.
> 
> She got rid of things like council houses which allowed people to have a home, which helps when you want to keep a family.
> 
> Shotton, 1984: How Thatcher destroyed our town
> 
> She destroyed communities and didn't bother to try and help them.
> 
> Viewpoints: How did Thatcher change UK?
> 
> "The problem was that the Thatcher government did not care about those who lost out as a result of it and did not do enough to replenish the housing stock that had been sold off."
> 
> So, Thatcher was the problem, not wars that happened half a century or more before. Major didn't help either. The Tories like to destroy things that keep things good.
> 
> Who needs the police? The rich can pay for private security.
> Who needs education? The rich can pay for private education.
> Who needs health care? The rich can pay for private health care.
> 
> See the problem?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The problem is the welfare state.      When single girls can have children without fathers and husbands, you get more violent crime as their daughters also have children without fathers....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Oh great, another thing pulled right out of the hat. Don't you think doing a little research before making ridiculous claims would be a good idea?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Teenage pregnancy by state in the US. Funny how it's the right wing states that have the most teenage pregnancy, isn't it?
> 
> Surely it'd be the other way around, wouldn't right wing states give teenage mothers LESS MONEY?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Moron....out of wedlock birth rates are highest in the Black community, the community with the highest incarceration rates and the highest gun murder rates....are you really this dense?  The Border states....Hispanic out of wedlock birth rates.....
> 
> 77% black births to single moms, 49% for Hispanic immigrants
> 
> *77% black births to single moms, 49% for Hispanic immigrants*
> 
> -------
> The National Center for Health Statistics said that in 2015, 77.3 percent of non-immigrant black births were illegitimate. The national non-immigrant average is 42 percent, and it was 30 percent for whites.
> 
> The new numbers were in a Center for Immigration Studies analysis on the births to immigrants. That total is 32.7 percent, but to Hispanic immigrants it is 48.9 percent, according to Steven Camarota, the director of research for the Center for Immigration Studies.
> ---
> 
> _*There is good evidence that children born to unmarried parents are at higher risk of dropping out of high school, having run-ins with the law, and other negative social outcomes. This maybe especially true for children born to immigrants because of the challenges associated with adjusting to life in their parents' adopted country.*_
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> There are signifcant numbers of single families in France . Germany and the UK. And yet our gun crime is a fraction of the US. What is the difference ? We have gun laws which restrict access to killing machines. Its not complicated mate.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Moron...... those countries are becoming more and more violent.....I have pointed out that they are behind because of the destruction of the 2 world wars....it took the social welfare state to destroy the families in those countries...and as I showed Frigidweirdo, single teenage girls raising young males drives the crime rate, not guns.
Click to expand...


You havent proved anything. Europe and the US have similar levels of single parents, maybe a bit lower, but the US death rate is 4 times higher than any country in western europe. There is no link.

Hmmmm. What could be the difference ?

BTW its not unmarried parents driving the crime rate it is primarily poverty. But lets leave that complicated issue for adults to discuss.


----------



## 2aguy

Tommy Tainant said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tommy Tainant said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> The problem is the welfare state.      When single girls can have children without fathers and husbands, you get more violent crime as their daughters also have children without fathers....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oh great, another thing pulled right out of the hat. Don't you think doing a little research before making ridiculous claims would be a good idea?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Teenage pregnancy by state in the US. Funny how it's the right wing states that have the most teenage pregnancy, isn't it?
> 
> Surely it'd be the other way around, wouldn't right wing states give teenage mothers LESS MONEY?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Moron....out of wedlock birth rates are highest in the Black community, the community with the highest incarceration rates and the highest gun murder rates....are you really this dense?  The Border states....Hispanic out of wedlock birth rates.....
> 
> 77% black births to single moms, 49% for Hispanic immigrants
> 
> *77% black births to single moms, 49% for Hispanic immigrants*
> 
> -------
> The National Center for Health Statistics said that in 2015, 77.3 percent of non-immigrant black births were illegitimate. The national non-immigrant average is 42 percent, and it was 30 percent for whites.
> 
> The new numbers were in a Center for Immigration Studies analysis on the births to immigrants. That total is 32.7 percent, but to Hispanic immigrants it is 48.9 percent, according to Steven Camarota, the director of research for the Center for Immigration Studies.
> ---
> 
> _*There is good evidence that children born to unmarried parents are at higher risk of dropping out of high school, having run-ins with the law, and other negative social outcomes. This maybe especially true for children born to immigrants because of the challenges associated with adjusting to life in their parents' adopted country.*_
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> There are signifcant numbers of single families in France . Germany and the UK. And yet our gun crime is a fraction of the US. What is the difference ? We have gun laws which restrict access to killing machines. Its not complicated mate.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Moron...... those countries are becoming more and more violent.....I have pointed out that they are behind because of the destruction of the 2 world wars....it took the social welfare state to destroy the families in those countries...and as I showed Frigidweirdo, single teenage girls raising young males drives the crime rate, not guns.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You havent proved anything. Europe and the US have similar levels of single parents, maybe a bit lower, but the US death rate is 4 times higher than any country in western europe. There is no link.
> 
> Hmmmm. What could be the difference ?
> 
> BTW its not unmarried parents driving the crime rate it is primarily poverty. But lets leave that complicated issue for adults to discuss.
Click to expand...



We had tremendous poverty in the Great Depression, intact families and very little crime.   Single teenage girls raising young males drives crime....


----------



## frigidweirdo

2aguy said:


> Tommy Tainant said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> candycorn said:
> 
> 
> 
> Do they have 30,000+ gun deaths a year?  No.  They are doing something very right and we are doing something very wrong.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> they didn't have that many before they banned guns...now they have more gun crime after they banned guns for law abiding Brits....
> 
> Meanwhile...we have less gun crime as more Americans own and carry guns....
> 
> We went from 200 million guns in private hands in the 1990s and 4.7 million people carrying guns for self defense in 1997...to close to 400-600 million guns in private hands and over 17.25  million people carrying guns for self defense in 2018...guess what happened...
> 
> 
> --* gun murder down 49%*
> 
> *--gun crime down 75%*
> 
> *--violent crime down 72%*
> 
> Gun Homicide Rate Down 49% Since 1993 Peak; Public Unaware
> 
> Compared with 1993, the peak of U.S. gun homicides, the firearm homicide rate was 49% lower in 2010, and there were fewer deaths, even though the nation’s population grew. The victimization rate for other violent crimes with a firearm—assaults, robberies and sex crimes—was 75% lower in 2011 than in 1993. Violent non-fatal crime victimization overall (with or without a firearm) also is down markedly (72%) over two decades.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You quote trends to justify your nonsense but the absoute figures arent moving. The UK death rate isnt in the same league as the US death rate. Primarily because it is not easy to get guns.
> The US is the only developed nation that has this issue and is more dangerous than the  Albania which Hollywood demonised in the Taken movies. That is where you are.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> If it isn't easy to get guns why is your gun crime rate going up?   Criminals get illegal guns otherwise your gun crime rate wouldn't be going up, 42% in London, 23% across England and Wales in 2016......which means they have guns, they just don't use them to commit murder.....they shoot to wound as punishment or intimidation, they don't shoot to kill.
Click to expand...


Just because it isn't easy to get guns, doesn't mean some people can't get guns. They can. 

The point is that EASY AVAILABILITY OF GUNS leads to more gun crime. That gun crime goes up and goes down is hardly something knew.

The problem is you're making out that going up is something that shouldn't happen. But crime goes up and down in the US as well as in the UK. That it's going up now is in part to policies the government has implemented over the last 8 years. Less social projects means more kids on the streets bored. Means they're more likely to commit crime etc. 

That they don't shoot to kill is a POSITIVE THING. And it's there because they have A SINGLE GUN perhaps between a whole gang, but they want to show how hard, how strong, how much respect they "deserve" so they use the gun to prove it. They don't want to lose the gun, losing that gun makes them lose their prestige. 

But then the police will find it much easier to do their job because MOST OTHER CRIMINALS AREN'T ARMED. 

The police don't walk into a housing estate and have 20 pistols aimed at them like they might in the US. They might be looking for one gun, and the criminals know they don't stand a chance if they actually use that gun.

Why? Because of BRITAIN'S GUN CONTROL LAWS.


----------



## cnm

2aguy said:


> Britain banned and confiscated handguns...which are the leading weapons there for gun crime...you know, on an island that banned them...


Handguns are not banned in the UK, they are strictly regulated. Oh, forgot raving loonies can't be told. My bad.


----------



## frigidweirdo

2aguy said:


> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> 
> So, the UK has an increase in violent crime in the 2000s because of the impact of WW1 and WW2. Yet the US which avoided a lot of that suffering on the home front has a much higher murder rate.
> 
> What are you fucking talking about?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It has to do with the destruction of the family.....single teenage girls raising young males..... we reached that point earlier...in the 1960s, because we didn't get set back by World War 2....they fell behind, and now are catching up, their social welfare programs have finally reached the point where they have destroyed their families...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Well, WW1 and WW2 had nothing to do with the destruction of the families in the UK.
> 
> Maggie "the bitch" Thatcher had A LOT TO DO with the destruction of the family.
> 
> How Britain changed under Margaret Thatcher. In 15 charts
> 
> "
> *Families*
> Ironically for a prime minister who focussed so much on family life, the 1980s saw the end of the traditional family unit for many. Divorce rates reached 13.4 per 1,000 married population in 1985, although that wasn't as high as the peak of 1994 after the recession."
> 
> Ah, Thatcher came in in 1979 and left in 1990 and the divorce rate rose during her time and after.
> 
> She got rid of things like council houses which allowed people to have a home, which helps when you want to keep a family.
> 
> Shotton, 1984: How Thatcher destroyed our town
> 
> She destroyed communities and didn't bother to try and help them.
> 
> Viewpoints: How did Thatcher change UK?
> 
> "The problem was that the Thatcher government did not care about those who lost out as a result of it and did not do enough to replenish the housing stock that had been sold off."
> 
> So, Thatcher was the problem, not wars that happened half a century or more before. Major didn't help either. The Tories like to destroy things that keep things good.
> 
> Who needs the police? The rich can pay for private security.
> Who needs education? The rich can pay for private education.
> Who needs health care? The rich can pay for private health care.
> 
> See the problem?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> The problem is the welfare state.      When single girls can have children without fathers and husbands, you get more violent crime as their daughters also have children without fathers....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Oh great, another thing pulled right out of the hat. Don't you think doing a little research before making ridiculous claims would be a good idea?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Teenage pregnancy by state in the US. Funny how it's the right wing states that have the most teenage pregnancy, isn't it?
> 
> Surely it'd be the other way around, wouldn't right wing states give teenage mothers LESS MONEY?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Moron....out of wedlock birth rates are highest in the Black community, the community with the highest incarceration rates and the highest gun murder rates....are you really this dense?  The Border states....Hispanic out of wedlock birth rates.....
> 
> 77% black births to single moms, 49% for Hispanic immigrants
> 
> *77% black births to single moms, 49% for Hispanic immigrants*
> 
> -------
> The National Center for Health Statistics said that in 2015, 77.3 percent of non-immigrant black births were illegitimate. The national non-immigrant average is 42 percent, and it was 30 percent for whites.
> 
> The new numbers were in a Center for Immigration Studies analysis on the births to immigrants. That total is 32.7 percent, but to Hispanic immigrants it is 48.9 percent, according to Steven Camarota, the director of research for the Center for Immigration Studies.
> ---
> 
> _*There is good evidence that children born to unmarried parents are at higher risk of dropping out of high school, having run-ins with the law, and other negative social outcomes. This maybe especially true for children born to immigrants because of the challenges associated with adjusting to life in their parents' adopted country.*_
Click to expand...


Fuck off with your insults. I'm not responding to your posts when you decide that your argument is to insult people. You're talking about gun control, not pokemon. Grow the fuck up.


----------



## frigidweirdo

2aguy said:


> Tommy Tainant said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tommy Tainant said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> 
> Oh great, another thing pulled right out of the hat. Don't you think doing a little research before making ridiculous claims would be a good idea?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Teenage pregnancy by state in the US. Funny how it's the right wing states that have the most teenage pregnancy, isn't it?
> 
> Surely it'd be the other way around, wouldn't right wing states give teenage mothers LESS MONEY?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Moron....out of wedlock birth rates are highest in the Black community, the community with the highest incarceration rates and the highest gun murder rates....are you really this dense?  The Border states....Hispanic out of wedlock birth rates.....
> 
> 77% black births to single moms, 49% for Hispanic immigrants
> 
> *77% black births to single moms, 49% for Hispanic immigrants*
> 
> -------
> The National Center for Health Statistics said that in 2015, 77.3 percent of non-immigrant black births were illegitimate. The national non-immigrant average is 42 percent, and it was 30 percent for whites.
> 
> The new numbers were in a Center for Immigration Studies analysis on the births to immigrants. That total is 32.7 percent, but to Hispanic immigrants it is 48.9 percent, according to Steven Camarota, the director of research for the Center for Immigration Studies.
> ---
> 
> _*There is good evidence that children born to unmarried parents are at higher risk of dropping out of high school, having run-ins with the law, and other negative social outcomes. This maybe especially true for children born to immigrants because of the challenges associated with adjusting to life in their parents' adopted country.*_
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> There are signifcant numbers of single families in France . Germany and the UK. And yet our gun crime is a fraction of the US. What is the difference ? We have gun laws which restrict access to killing machines. Its not complicated mate.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Moron...... those countries are becoming more and more violent.....I have pointed out that they are behind because of the destruction of the 2 world wars....it took the social welfare state to destroy the families in those countries...and as I showed Frigidweirdo, single teenage girls raising young males drives the crime rate, not guns.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You havent proved anything. Europe and the US have similar levels of single parents, maybe a bit lower, but the US death rate is 4 times higher than any country in western europe. There is no link.
> 
> Hmmmm. What could be the difference ?
> 
> BTW its not unmarried parents driving the crime rate it is primarily poverty. But lets leave that complicated issue for adults to discuss.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> We had tremendous poverty in the Great Depression, intact families and very little crime.   Single teenage girls raising young males drives crime....
Click to expand...


Prove it. Prove it's this and nothing else. I bet you don't nor can't.


----------



## 2aguy

Tommy Tainant said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tommy Tainant said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> The problem is the welfare state.      When single girls can have children without fathers and husbands, you get more violent crime as their daughters also have children without fathers....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oh great, another thing pulled right out of the hat. Don't you think doing a little research before making ridiculous claims would be a good idea?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Teenage pregnancy by state in the US. Funny how it's the right wing states that have the most teenage pregnancy, isn't it?
> 
> Surely it'd be the other way around, wouldn't right wing states give teenage mothers LESS MONEY?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Moron....out of wedlock birth rates are highest in the Black community, the community with the highest incarceration rates and the highest gun murder rates....are you really this dense?  The Border states....Hispanic out of wedlock birth rates.....
> 
> 77% black births to single moms, 49% for Hispanic immigrants
> 
> *77% black births to single moms, 49% for Hispanic immigrants*
> 
> -------
> The National Center for Health Statistics said that in 2015, 77.3 percent of non-immigrant black births were illegitimate. The national non-immigrant average is 42 percent, and it was 30 percent for whites.
> 
> The new numbers were in a Center for Immigration Studies analysis on the births to immigrants. That total is 32.7 percent, but to Hispanic immigrants it is 48.9 percent, according to Steven Camarota, the director of research for the Center for Immigration Studies.
> ---
> 
> _*There is good evidence that children born to unmarried parents are at higher risk of dropping out of high school, having run-ins with the law, and other negative social outcomes. This maybe especially true for children born to immigrants because of the challenges associated with adjusting to life in their parents' adopted country.*_
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> There are signifcant numbers of single families in France . Germany and the UK. And yet our gun crime is a fraction of the US. What is the difference ? We have gun laws which restrict access to killing machines. Its not complicated mate.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Moron...... those countries are becoming more and more violent.....I have pointed out that they are behind because of the destruction of the 2 world wars....it took the social welfare state to destroy the families in those countries...and as I showed Frigidweirdo, single teenage girls raising young males drives the crime rate, not guns.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You havent proved anything. Europe and the US have similar levels of single parents, maybe a bit lower, but the US death rate is 4 times higher than any country in western europe. There is no link.
> 
> Hmmmm. What could be the difference ?
> 
> BTW its not unmarried parents driving the crime rate it is primarily poverty. But lets leave that complicated issue for adults to discuss.
Click to expand...



Poverty is created and perpetuated by single teenage mother led homes.....

https://www.quora.com/Is-it-true-that-most-criminals-came-from-single-mother-households

Studies of children from single-parent families have shown that
most criminals come from single mothers


They are more likely to become drug/alcohol/chemical abusers, and indulge in anti-social behavior
*More likely to become criminals*
More likely to be truants, runaways, and drop-outs
*More likely to suffer from mental and physical illness*
More likely to suffer from Physical, Sexual, Emotional abuse, and Neglect. These are the main forms of abuse. They are listed in Child Abuse registers
Over 90% of single-parents are mothers. A significant number of those mothers come from single-parent families
It is common that a single-mother will have children by more than one partner
The majority of child murders are carried out by women, and more mothers than fathers kill their own children
The mothers that kill their own children are most commonly ill or depressed
The fathers that kill their own children are most commonly denied access to their children
*Children that come from fatherless families are more likely to join gangs
Young people who join gangs are more likely to become criminals, and more likely to suffer from crime*
Divorce and separation is on the rise, and in the West there are now more couples cohabiting than there are married couples
For those that get married, there is a 60% chance they will get divorced, and that in 8 out of 10 divorces are initiated by women
The rise in single-mother families is attributed to several factors that include women gaining more independence; having more ways to have children without men; having better financial support from the State; having more privileges under law; and men having a greater chance of losing their job
There is also the underlying problems that lower schools are now almost totally operated by women teachers, and virtually all forms of childcare, family charities, and Media coverage on Families is run by women
Further to that, Men are more commonly opting out of marriage or commitments due the social changes that no longer offer advantages in such arrangements
The rise of fatherless families has been studied in relation to discipline in school, and a rapid rise in teachers abandoning teaching as a profession
The rise in Child custody cases is now the highest it has ever been, and almost every case relates to fathers being denied access to their children. It is now common for Family court appeals to run into dozens of appeals (one case went back to court 106 times)
It must be clear that there is *not *a conspiracy among women to become single mothers. Most women put their children’s interests first, and many women will put up with a bad marriage for the sake of the children


----------



## 2aguy

frigidweirdo said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tommy Tainant said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> candycorn said:
> 
> 
> 
> Do they have 30,000+ gun deaths a year?  No.  They are doing something very right and we are doing something very wrong.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> they didn't have that many before they banned guns...now they have more gun crime after they banned guns for law abiding Brits....
> 
> Meanwhile...we have less gun crime as more Americans own and carry guns....
> 
> We went from 200 million guns in private hands in the 1990s and 4.7 million people carrying guns for self defense in 1997...to close to 400-600 million guns in private hands and over 17.25  million people carrying guns for self defense in 2018...guess what happened...
> 
> 
> --* gun murder down 49%*
> 
> *--gun crime down 75%*
> 
> *--violent crime down 72%*
> 
> Gun Homicide Rate Down 49% Since 1993 Peak; Public Unaware
> 
> Compared with 1993, the peak of U.S. gun homicides, the firearm homicide rate was 49% lower in 2010, and there were fewer deaths, even though the nation’s population grew. The victimization rate for other violent crimes with a firearm—assaults, robberies and sex crimes—was 75% lower in 2011 than in 1993. Violent non-fatal crime victimization overall (with or without a firearm) also is down markedly (72%) over two decades.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You quote trends to justify your nonsense but the absoute figures arent moving. The UK death rate isnt in the same league as the US death rate. Primarily because it is not easy to get guns.
> The US is the only developed nation that has this issue and is more dangerous than the  Albania which Hollywood demonised in the Taken movies. That is where you are.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> If it isn't easy to get guns why is your gun crime rate going up?   Criminals get illegal guns otherwise your gun crime rate wouldn't be going up, 42% in London, 23% across England and Wales in 2016......which means they have guns, they just don't use them to commit murder.....they shoot to wound as punishment or intimidation, they don't shoot to kill.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Just because it isn't easy to get guns, doesn't mean some people can't get guns. They can.
> 
> The point is that EASY AVAILABILITY OF GUNS leads to more gun crime. That gun crime goes up and goes down is hardly something knew.
> 
> The problem is you're making out that going up is something that shouldn't happen. But crime goes up and down in the US as well as in the UK. That it's going up now is in part to policies the government has implemented over the last 8 years. Less social projects means more kids on the streets bored. Means they're more likely to commit crime etc.
> 
> That they don't shoot to kill is a POSITIVE THING. And it's there because they have A SINGLE GUN perhaps between a whole gang, but they want to show how hard, how strong, how much respect they "deserve" so they use the gun to prove it. They don't want to lose the gun, losing that gun makes them lose their prestige.
> 
> But then the police will find it much easier to do their job because MOST OTHER CRIMINALS AREN'T ARMED.
> 
> The police don't walk into a housing estate and have 20 pistols aimed at them like they might in the US. They might be looking for one gun, and the criminals know they don't stand a chance if they actually use that gun.
> 
> Why? Because of BRITAIN'S GUN CONTROL LAWS.
Click to expand...



wrong...our gun crime rate is going down with more guns in the hands of normal people...explain that.

Britain banned and confiscated guns, and their gun crime is going up...explain that.


----------



## frigidweirdo

2aguy said:


> Tommy Tainant said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tommy Tainant said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> 
> Oh great, another thing pulled right out of the hat. Don't you think doing a little research before making ridiculous claims would be a good idea?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Teenage pregnancy by state in the US. Funny how it's the right wing states that have the most teenage pregnancy, isn't it?
> 
> Surely it'd be the other way around, wouldn't right wing states give teenage mothers LESS MONEY?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Moron....out of wedlock birth rates are highest in the Black community, the community with the highest incarceration rates and the highest gun murder rates....are you really this dense?  The Border states....Hispanic out of wedlock birth rates.....
> 
> 77% black births to single moms, 49% for Hispanic immigrants
> 
> *77% black births to single moms, 49% for Hispanic immigrants*
> 
> -------
> The National Center for Health Statistics said that in 2015, 77.3 percent of non-immigrant black births were illegitimate. The national non-immigrant average is 42 percent, and it was 30 percent for whites.
> 
> The new numbers were in a Center for Immigration Studies analysis on the births to immigrants. That total is 32.7 percent, but to Hispanic immigrants it is 48.9 percent, according to Steven Camarota, the director of research for the Center for Immigration Studies.
> ---
> 
> _*There is good evidence that children born to unmarried parents are at higher risk of dropping out of high school, having run-ins with the law, and other negative social outcomes. This maybe especially true for children born to immigrants because of the challenges associated with adjusting to life in their parents' adopted country.*_
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> There are signifcant numbers of single families in France . Germany and the UK. And yet our gun crime is a fraction of the US. What is the difference ? We have gun laws which restrict access to killing machines. Its not complicated mate.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Moron...... those countries are becoming more and more violent.....I have pointed out that they are behind because of the destruction of the 2 world wars....it took the social welfare state to destroy the families in those countries...and as I showed Frigidweirdo, single teenage girls raising young males drives the crime rate, not guns.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You havent proved anything. Europe and the US have similar levels of single parents, maybe a bit lower, but the US death rate is 4 times higher than any country in western europe. There is no link.
> 
> Hmmmm. What could be the difference ?
> 
> BTW its not unmarried parents driving the crime rate it is primarily poverty. But lets leave that complicated issue for adults to discuss.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Poverty is created and perpetuated by single teenage mother led homes.....
> 
> https://www.quora.com/Is-it-true-that-most-criminals-came-from-single-mother-households
> 
> Studies of children from single-parent families have shown that
> most criminals come from single mothers
> 
> 
> They are more likely to become drug/alcohol/chemical abusers, and indulge in anti-social behavior
> *More likely to become criminals*
> More likely to be truants, runaways, and drop-outs
> *More likely to suffer from mental and physical illness*
> More likely to suffer from Physical, Sexual, Emotional abuse, and Neglect. These are the main forms of abuse. They are listed in Child Abuse registers
> Over 90% of single-parents are mothers. A significant number of those mothers come from single-parent families
> It is common that a single-mother will have children by more than one partner
> The majority of child murders are carried out by women, and more mothers than fathers kill their own children
> The mothers that kill their own children are most commonly ill or depressed
> The fathers that kill their own children are most commonly denied access to their children
> *Children that come from fatherless families are more likely to join gangs
> Young people who join gangs are more likely to become criminals, and more likely to suffer from crime*
> Divorce and separation is on the rise, and in the West there are now more couples cohabiting than there are married couples
> For those that get married, there is a 60% chance they will get divorced, and that in 8 out of 10 divorces are initiated by women
> The rise in single-mother families is attributed to several factors that include women gaining more independence; having more ways to have children without men; having better financial support from the State; having more privileges under law; and men having a greater chance of losing their job
> There is also the underlying problems that lower schools are now almost totally operated by women teachers, and virtually all forms of childcare, family charities, and Media coverage on Families is run by women
> Further to that, Men are more commonly opting out of marriage or commitments due the social changes that no longer offer advantages in such arrangements
> The rise of fatherless families has been studied in relation to discipline in school, and a rapid rise in teachers abandoning teaching as a profession
> The rise in Child custody cases is now the highest it has ever been, and almost every case relates to fathers being denied access to their children. It is now common for Family court appeals to run into dozens of appeals (one case went back to court 106 times)
> It must be clear that there is *not *a conspiracy among women to become single mothers. Most women put their children’s interests first, and many women will put up with a bad marriage for the sake of the children
Click to expand...


Oh my fucking word. You're not even sourcing a website. You're sourcing google search and Quora. 

Fucking pathetic.


----------



## 2aguy

cnm said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Britain banned and confiscated handguns...which are the leading weapons there for gun crime...you know, on an island that banned them...
> 
> 
> 
> Handguns are not banned in the UK, they are strictly regulated. Oh, forgot raving loonies can't be told. My bad.
Click to expand...



Handguns are banned in the U.K........  normal, law abiding people can't get handguns in Britain.  Criminals are getting them more and more often...

if you are one of the rich, the famous.....you can get the few bird hunting shotguns ....otherwise you are out of luck.

Take a look at the guns you can legally buy in the UK

The UK banned handguns in 1997, but citizens are still able to own and shoot some shotguns and rifles with a license.
-----

For firearms other than a shotgun, applicants must give police a "good reason" for wanting to own one. Hunting or being a member of a shooting club, for example, might be seen as good reasons. Self-defence won't be considered a valid reason.

Hunting is okay for the rich....not getting raped or murdered is not a valid reason to own a gun.....that is how screwed up Britain is....


----------



## cnm

2aguy said:


> London on course for highest number of killings in a decade after 2018 passes 2017 total


Of course it's coming off the low base of 2017. But the UK's homicides are still a fraction of the US rate, where handguns account for nearly half of US homicides. A few years ago the US had an intentional homicide rate of 5.35/100,000 while the UK was at 1.2/100,000. Nearly five times the US rate! 

The rate of people killed with handguns in the US is higher than the total rate of homicides in the UK!

Don't look, raving loony, don't look!


----------



## 2aguy

frigidweirdo said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tommy Tainant said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tommy Tainant said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Moron....out of wedlock birth rates are highest in the Black community, the community with the highest incarceration rates and the highest gun murder rates....are you really this dense?  The Border states....Hispanic out of wedlock birth rates.....
> 
> 77% black births to single moms, 49% for Hispanic immigrants
> 
> *77% black births to single moms, 49% for Hispanic immigrants*
> 
> -------
> The National Center for Health Statistics said that in 2015, 77.3 percent of non-immigrant black births were illegitimate. The national non-immigrant average is 42 percent, and it was 30 percent for whites.
> 
> The new numbers were in a Center for Immigration Studies analysis on the births to immigrants. That total is 32.7 percent, but to Hispanic immigrants it is 48.9 percent, according to Steven Camarota, the director of research for the Center for Immigration Studies.
> ---
> 
> _*There is good evidence that children born to unmarried parents are at higher risk of dropping out of high school, having run-ins with the law, and other negative social outcomes. This maybe especially true for children born to immigrants because of the challenges associated with adjusting to life in their parents' adopted country.*_
> 
> 
> 
> There are signifcant numbers of single families in France . Germany and the UK. And yet our gun crime is a fraction of the US. What is the difference ? We have gun laws which restrict access to killing machines. Its not complicated mate.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Moron...... those countries are becoming more and more violent.....I have pointed out that they are behind because of the destruction of the 2 world wars....it took the social welfare state to destroy the families in those countries...and as I showed Frigidweirdo, single teenage girls raising young males drives the crime rate, not guns.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You havent proved anything. Europe and the US have similar levels of single parents, maybe a bit lower, but the US death rate is 4 times higher than any country in western europe. There is no link.
> 
> Hmmmm. What could be the difference ?
> 
> BTW its not unmarried parents driving the crime rate it is primarily poverty. But lets leave that complicated issue for adults to discuss.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> We had tremendous poverty in the Great Depression, intact families and very little crime.   Single teenage girls raising young males drives crime....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Prove it. Prove it's this and nothing else. I bet you don't nor can't.
Click to expand...



Here...

https://www.history.com/topics/great-depression/crime-in-the-great-depression

Violent crime rates may have risen at first during the Depression (in 1933, nationwide homicide mortality rate hit a high for the century until that point, at 9.7 per 100,000 people) but the trend did not continue throughout the decade. As the economy showed signs of recovery in 1934-37, the homicide rate went down by 20 percent.

------------

Do hard times spark more crime?

The Depression of the 1930s offers an excellent illustration of the inconsistent relationship between economics and crime. This was a time of unprecedented economic catastrophe for the United States. By the early '30s, more than 3,600 banks had gone under, more than 40% of home mortgages were in default and 1,300 local governments had failed to make obligatory payments. National income had fallen to 54% of 1929 levels. By 1932, an estimated 28% of the nation's households (34 million people) did not have a single employed wage earner.

With all this misery, did violent crime rise? At first, yes. In 1933, the nationwide homicide mortality rate hit a high for the century up to that point of 9.7 per 100,000 people. In fact, the homicide rate exceeded 9.0 in every year from 1930 to 1934. Only in the "great crime surge" of the 1970s would we again begin seeing rates that alarming.

On the other hand, as the economic recovery proceeded from 1934 to 1937, the homicide rate declined by 20%. 
-------

But whatever the reasons, crime continued to fall. The economy stalled again in 1937 and 1938 (Republicans called it the Roosevelt recession), but homicide rates kept going down, reaching 6.4 per 100,000 by the end of the decade. In fact, the mid-'30s launched a multi-decade crime trough that ran, despite occasional spikes, right up to the 1960s.


----------



## 2aguy

cnm said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> London on course for highest number of killings in a decade after 2018 passes 2017 total
> 
> 
> 
> Of course it's coming off the low base of 2017. But the UK's homicides are still a fraction of the US rate, where handguns account for nearly half of US homicides. A few years ago the US had an intentional homicide rate of 5.35/100,000 while the UK was at 1.2/100,000. Nearly five times the US rate!
> 
> The rate of people killed with handguns in the US is higher than the total rate of homicides in the UK!
> 
> Don't look, raving loony, don't look!
Click to expand...



Again..... you are desparately trying to hide behind murder to defend gun control that doesn't work.   Gun crime is going up in Britain...an island, where they banned and confiscated guns for law abiding people.....  you push the murder rate....knowing, since you have been told over and over, that the gun murder rate was always low even when they were allowed to own guns..... now that law abiding people can't own guns, the gun crime rate is going up..on an island....

Meanwhile, something else you can't explain, is how the gun murder rate in the U.S. went down 49% as Millions and millions of Americans not only owned guns, but started carrying them for the last 25 years....and you can't explain, according to your theory, how gun crime went down 75%, as millions and millions of Americans own and carry guns....and you can't explain, according to your theory, how our violent crime rate has gone down 72% as millions and millions of Americans own and carry guns over the last 25 years, while in Britain their Violent crime rates are sky rocketing...

You can't explain any of that....and yet you want me to take you seriously.....


----------



## cnm

2aguy said:


> Handguns are banned in the U.K


UK Legal Weapons and Firearms Law 2018


----------



## 2aguy

2aguy said:


> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tommy Tainant said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tommy Tainant said:
> 
> 
> 
> There are signifcant numbers of single families in France . Germany and the UK. And yet our gun crime is a fraction of the US. What is the difference ? We have gun laws which restrict access to killing machines. Its not complicated mate.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Moron...... those countries are becoming more and more violent.....I have pointed out that they are behind because of the destruction of the 2 world wars....it took the social welfare state to destroy the families in those countries...and as I showed Frigidweirdo, single teenage girls raising young males drives the crime rate, not guns.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You havent proved anything. Europe and the US have similar levels of single parents, maybe a bit lower, but the US death rate is 4 times higher than any country in western europe. There is no link.
> 
> Hmmmm. What could be the difference ?
> 
> BTW its not unmarried parents driving the crime rate it is primarily poverty. But lets leave that complicated issue for adults to discuss.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> We had tremendous poverty in the Great Depression, intact families and very little crime.   Single teenage girls raising young males drives crime....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Prove it. Prove it's this and nothing else. I bet you don't nor can't.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Here...
> 
> https://www.history.com/topics/great-depression/crime-in-the-great-depression
> 
> Violent crime rates may have risen at first during the Depression (in 1933, nationwide homicide mortality rate hit a high for the century until that point, at 9.7 per 100,000 people) but the trend did not continue throughout the decade. As the economy showed signs of recovery in 1934-37, the homicide rate went down by 20 percent.
> 
> ------------
> 
> Do hard times spark more crime?
> 
> The Depression of the 1930s offers an excellent illustration of the inconsistent relationship between economics and crime. This was a time of unprecedented economic catastrophe for the United States. By the early '30s, more than 3,600 banks had gone under, more than 40% of home mortgages were in default and 1,300 local governments had failed to make obligatory payments. National income had fallen to 54% of 1929 levels. By 1932, an estimated 28% of the nation's households (34 million people) did not have a single employed wage earner.
> 
> With all this misery, did violent crime rise? At first, yes. In 1933, the nationwide homicide mortality rate hit a high for the century up to that point of 9.7 per 100,000 people. In fact, the homicide rate exceeded 9.0 in every year from 1930 to 1934. Only in the "great crime surge" of the 1970s would we again begin seeing rates that alarming.
> 
> On the other hand, as the economic recovery proceeded from 1934 to 1937, the homicide rate declined by 20%.
> -------
> 
> But whatever the reasons, crime continued to fall. The economy stalled again in 1937 and 1938 (Republicans called it the Roosevelt recession), but homicide rates kept going down, reaching 6.4 per 100,000 by the end of the decade. In fact, the mid-'30s launched a multi-decade crime trough that ran, despite occasional spikes, right up to the 1960s.
Click to expand...



Hey, frigid...what began to happen in the 1960s in America?   More single teenage mothers....which started the crime spike that went from the mid 1960s, Great Society America to 1993...when more Americans began to buy and carry guns, and the gun crime rate went down 75%, the gun murder rate went down 49%, and the violent crime rate went down 72% for 25 years............more guns = less gun crime.


----------



## cnm

2aguy said:


> and yet you want me to take you seriously.....


The last thing I want is to be taken seriously by the loonies I laugh at.


----------



## 2aguy

frigidweirdo said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tommy Tainant said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tommy Tainant said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Moron....out of wedlock birth rates are highest in the Black community, the community with the highest incarceration rates and the highest gun murder rates....are you really this dense?  The Border states....Hispanic out of wedlock birth rates.....
> 
> 77% black births to single moms, 49% for Hispanic immigrants
> 
> *77% black births to single moms, 49% for Hispanic immigrants*
> 
> -------
> The National Center for Health Statistics said that in 2015, 77.3 percent of non-immigrant black births were illegitimate. The national non-immigrant average is 42 percent, and it was 30 percent for whites.
> 
> The new numbers were in a Center for Immigration Studies analysis on the births to immigrants. That total is 32.7 percent, but to Hispanic immigrants it is 48.9 percent, according to Steven Camarota, the director of research for the Center for Immigration Studies.
> ---
> 
> _*There is good evidence that children born to unmarried parents are at higher risk of dropping out of high school, having run-ins with the law, and other negative social outcomes. This maybe especially true for children born to immigrants because of the challenges associated with adjusting to life in their parents' adopted country.*_
> 
> 
> 
> There are signifcant numbers of single families in France . Germany and the UK. And yet our gun crime is a fraction of the US. What is the difference ? We have gun laws which restrict access to killing machines. Its not complicated mate.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Moron...... those countries are becoming more and more violent.....I have pointed out that they are behind because of the destruction of the 2 world wars....it took the social welfare state to destroy the families in those countries...and as I showed Frigidweirdo, single teenage girls raising young males drives the crime rate, not guns.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You havent proved anything. Europe and the US have similar levels of single parents, maybe a bit lower, but the US death rate is 4 times higher than any country in western europe. There is no link.
> 
> Hmmmm. What could be the difference ?
> 
> BTW its not unmarried parents driving the crime rate it is primarily poverty. But lets leave that complicated issue for adults to discuss.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Poverty is created and perpetuated by single teenage mother led homes.....
> 
> https://www.quora.com/Is-it-true-that-most-criminals-came-from-single-mother-households
> 
> Studies of children from single-parent families have shown that
> most criminals come from single mothers
> 
> 
> They are more likely to become drug/alcohol/chemical abusers, and indulge in anti-social behavior
> *More likely to become criminals*
> More likely to be truants, runaways, and drop-outs
> *More likely to suffer from mental and physical illness*
> More likely to suffer from Physical, Sexual, Emotional abuse, and Neglect. These are the main forms of abuse. They are listed in Child Abuse registers
> Over 90% of single-parents are mothers. A significant number of those mothers come from single-parent families
> It is common that a single-mother will have children by more than one partner
> The majority of child murders are carried out by women, and more mothers than fathers kill their own children
> The mothers that kill their own children are most commonly ill or depressed
> The fathers that kill their own children are most commonly denied access to their children
> *Children that come from fatherless families are more likely to join gangs
> Young people who join gangs are more likely to become criminals, and more likely to suffer from crime*
> Divorce and separation is on the rise, and in the West there are now more couples cohabiting than there are married couples
> For those that get married, there is a 60% chance they will get divorced, and that in 8 out of 10 divorces are initiated by women
> The rise in single-mother families is attributed to several factors that include women gaining more independence; having more ways to have children without men; having better financial support from the State; having more privileges under law; and men having a greater chance of losing their job
> There is also the underlying problems that lower schools are now almost totally operated by women teachers, and virtually all forms of childcare, family charities, and Media coverage on Families is run by women
> Further to that, Men are more commonly opting out of marriage or commitments due the social changes that no longer offer advantages in such arrangements
> The rise of fatherless families has been studied in relation to discipline in school, and a rapid rise in teachers abandoning teaching as a profession
> The rise in Child custody cases is now the highest it has ever been, and almost every case relates to fathers being denied access to their children. It is now common for Family court appeals to run into dozens of appeals (one case went back to court 106 times)
> It must be clear that there is *not *a conspiracy among women to become single mothers. Most women put their children’s interests first, and many women will put up with a bad marriage for the sake of the children
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Oh my fucking word. You're not even sourcing a website. You're sourcing google search and Quora.
> 
> Fucking pathetic.
Click to expand...



You really are a moron...

The Real Root Causes of Violent Crime: The Breakdown of Marriage, Family, and Community

While this link between illegitimacy and chronic welfare dependency now is better understood, policymakers also need to appreciate another strong and disturbing pattern evident in scholarly studies: the link between illegitimacy and violent crime and between the lack of parental attachment and violent crime. Without an understanding of the root causes of criminal behavior -- how criminals are formed -- Members of Congress and state legislators cannot understand why whole sectors of society, particularly in urban areas, are being torn apart by crime. And without that knowledge, sound policymaking is impossible.
------

A review of the empirical evidence in the professional literature of the social sciences gives policymakers an insight into the root causes of crime. Consider, for instance:


Over the past thirty years, the rise in violent crime parallels the rise in families abandoned by fathers.
High-crime neighborhoods are characterized by high concentrations of families abandoned by fathers.
State-by-state analysis by Heritage scholars indicates that a 10 percent increase in the percentage of children living in single-parent homes leads typically to a 17 percent increase in juvenile crime.
The rate of violent teenage crime corresponds with the number of families abandoned by fathers.
The type of aggression and hostility demonstrated by a future criminal often is foreshadowed in unusual aggressiveness as early as age five or six.
The future criminal tends to be an individual rejected by other children as early as the first grade who goes on to form his own group of friends, often the future delinquent gang.
On the other hand:


Neighborhoods with a high degree of religious practice are not high-crime neighborhoods.
*Even in high-crime inner-city neighborhoods, well over 90 percent of children from safe, stable homes do not become delinquents. By contrast only 10 percent of children from unsafe, unstable homes in these neighborhoods avoid crime.*
Criminals capable of sustaining marriage gradually move away from a life of crime after they get married.
The mother's strong affectionate attachment to her child is the child's best buffer against a life of crime.
The father's authority and involvement in raising his children are also a great buffer against a life of crime.
The scholarly evidence, in short, suggests that at the heart of the explosion of crime in America is the loss of the capacity of fathers and mothers to be responsible in caring for the children they bring into the world. This loss of love and guidance at the intimate levels of marriage and family has broad social consequences for children and for the wider community.


----------



## 2aguy

frigidweirdo said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tommy Tainant said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tommy Tainant said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Moron....out of wedlock birth rates are highest in the Black community, the community with the highest incarceration rates and the highest gun murder rates....are you really this dense?  The Border states....Hispanic out of wedlock birth rates.....
> 
> 77% black births to single moms, 49% for Hispanic immigrants
> 
> *77% black births to single moms, 49% for Hispanic immigrants*
> 
> -------
> The National Center for Health Statistics said that in 2015, 77.3 percent of non-immigrant black births were illegitimate. The national non-immigrant average is 42 percent, and it was 30 percent for whites.
> 
> The new numbers were in a Center for Immigration Studies analysis on the births to immigrants. That total is 32.7 percent, but to Hispanic immigrants it is 48.9 percent, according to Steven Camarota, the director of research for the Center for Immigration Studies.
> ---
> 
> _*There is good evidence that children born to unmarried parents are at higher risk of dropping out of high school, having run-ins with the law, and other negative social outcomes. This maybe especially true for children born to immigrants because of the challenges associated with adjusting to life in their parents' adopted country.*_
> 
> 
> 
> There are signifcant numbers of single families in France . Germany and the UK. And yet our gun crime is a fraction of the US. What is the difference ? We have gun laws which restrict access to killing machines. Its not complicated mate.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Moron...... those countries are becoming more and more violent.....I have pointed out that they are behind because of the destruction of the 2 world wars....it took the social welfare state to destroy the families in those countries...and as I showed Frigidweirdo, single teenage girls raising young males drives the crime rate, not guns.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You havent proved anything. Europe and the US have similar levels of single parents, maybe a bit lower, but the US death rate is 4 times higher than any country in western europe. There is no link.
> 
> Hmmmm. What could be the difference ?
> 
> BTW its not unmarried parents driving the crime rate it is primarily poverty. But lets leave that complicated issue for adults to discuss.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Poverty is created and perpetuated by single teenage mother led homes.....
> 
> https://www.quora.com/Is-it-true-that-most-criminals-came-from-single-mother-households
> 
> Studies of children from single-parent families have shown that
> most criminals come from single mothers
> 
> 
> They are more likely to become drug/alcohol/chemical abusers, and indulge in anti-social behavior
> *More likely to become criminals*
> More likely to be truants, runaways, and drop-outs
> *More likely to suffer from mental and physical illness*
> More likely to suffer from Physical, Sexual, Emotional abuse, and Neglect. These are the main forms of abuse. They are listed in Child Abuse registers
> Over 90% of single-parents are mothers. A significant number of those mothers come from single-parent families
> It is common that a single-mother will have children by more than one partner
> The majority of child murders are carried out by women, and more mothers than fathers kill their own children
> The mothers that kill their own children are most commonly ill or depressed
> The fathers that kill their own children are most commonly denied access to their children
> *Children that come from fatherless families are more likely to join gangs
> Young people who join gangs are more likely to become criminals, and more likely to suffer from crime*
> Divorce and separation is on the rise, and in the West there are now more couples cohabiting than there are married couples
> For those that get married, there is a 60% chance they will get divorced, and that in 8 out of 10 divorces are initiated by women
> The rise in single-mother families is attributed to several factors that include women gaining more independence; having more ways to have children without men; having better financial support from the State; having more privileges under law; and men having a greater chance of losing their job
> There is also the underlying problems that lower schools are now almost totally operated by women teachers, and virtually all forms of childcare, family charities, and Media coverage on Families is run by women
> Further to that, Men are more commonly opting out of marriage or commitments due the social changes that no longer offer advantages in such arrangements
> The rise of fatherless families has been studied in relation to discipline in school, and a rapid rise in teachers abandoning teaching as a profession
> The rise in Child custody cases is now the highest it has ever been, and almost every case relates to fathers being denied access to their children. It is now common for Family court appeals to run into dozens of appeals (one case went back to court 106 times)
> It must be clear that there is *not *a conspiracy among women to become single mothers. Most women put their children’s interests first, and many women will put up with a bad marriage for the sake of the children
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Oh my fucking word. You're not even sourcing a website. You're sourcing google search and Quora.
> 
> Fucking pathetic.
Click to expand...



And here...

NCJRS Abstract - National Criminal Justice Reference Service

*The Journal of Research in Crime and Delinquency reports that the most reliable indicator of violent crime in a community is the proportion of fatherless families. *

Fathers typically offer economic stability, a role model for boys, greater household security, and reduced stress for mothers. This is especially true for families with adolescent boys, the most crime-prone cohort. Children from single-parent families are more prone than children from two-parent families to use drugs, be gang members, be expelled from school, be committed to reform institutions, and become juvenile murderers. Single parenthood inevitably reduces the amount of time a child has in interaction with someone who is attentive to the child's needs, including the provision of moral guidance and discipline. According to a 1993 Metropolitan Life Survey, "Violence in America's Public Schools," 71 percent of teachers and 90 percent of law enforcement officials state that the lack of parental supervision at home is a major factor that contributes to the violence in schools. Sixty-one percent of elementary students and 76 percent of secondary children agree with this assessment.


----------



## 2aguy

frigidweirdo said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tommy Tainant said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tommy Tainant said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Moron....out of wedlock birth rates are highest in the Black community, the community with the highest incarceration rates and the highest gun murder rates....are you really this dense?  The Border states....Hispanic out of wedlock birth rates.....
> 
> 77% black births to single moms, 49% for Hispanic immigrants
> 
> *77% black births to single moms, 49% for Hispanic immigrants*
> 
> -------
> The National Center for Health Statistics said that in 2015, 77.3 percent of non-immigrant black births were illegitimate. The national non-immigrant average is 42 percent, and it was 30 percent for whites.
> 
> The new numbers were in a Center for Immigration Studies analysis on the births to immigrants. That total is 32.7 percent, but to Hispanic immigrants it is 48.9 percent, according to Steven Camarota, the director of research for the Center for Immigration Studies.
> ---
> 
> _*There is good evidence that children born to unmarried parents are at higher risk of dropping out of high school, having run-ins with the law, and other negative social outcomes. This maybe especially true for children born to immigrants because of the challenges associated with adjusting to life in their parents' adopted country.*_
> 
> 
> 
> There are signifcant numbers of single families in France . Germany and the UK. And yet our gun crime is a fraction of the US. What is the difference ? We have gun laws which restrict access to killing machines. Its not complicated mate.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Moron...... those countries are becoming more and more violent.....I have pointed out that they are behind because of the destruction of the 2 world wars....it took the social welfare state to destroy the families in those countries...and as I showed Frigidweirdo, single teenage girls raising young males drives the crime rate, not guns.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You havent proved anything. Europe and the US have similar levels of single parents, maybe a bit lower, but the US death rate is 4 times higher than any country in western europe. There is no link.
> 
> Hmmmm. What could be the difference ?
> 
> BTW its not unmarried parents driving the crime rate it is primarily poverty. But lets leave that complicated issue for adults to discuss.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Poverty is created and perpetuated by single teenage mother led homes.....
> 
> https://www.quora.com/Is-it-true-that-most-criminals-came-from-single-mother-households
> 
> Studies of children from single-parent families have shown that
> most criminals come from single mothers
> 
> 
> They are more likely to become drug/alcohol/chemical abusers, and indulge in anti-social behavior
> *More likely to become criminals*
> More likely to be truants, runaways, and drop-outs
> *More likely to suffer from mental and physical illness*
> More likely to suffer from Physical, Sexual, Emotional abuse, and Neglect. These are the main forms of abuse. They are listed in Child Abuse registers
> Over 90% of single-parents are mothers. A significant number of those mothers come from single-parent families
> It is common that a single-mother will have children by more than one partner
> The majority of child murders are carried out by women, and more mothers than fathers kill their own children
> The mothers that kill their own children are most commonly ill or depressed
> The fathers that kill their own children are most commonly denied access to their children
> *Children that come from fatherless families are more likely to join gangs
> Young people who join gangs are more likely to become criminals, and more likely to suffer from crime*
> Divorce and separation is on the rise, and in the West there are now more couples cohabiting than there are married couples
> For those that get married, there is a 60% chance they will get divorced, and that in 8 out of 10 divorces are initiated by women
> The rise in single-mother families is attributed to several factors that include women gaining more independence; having more ways to have children without men; having better financial support from the State; having more privileges under law; and men having a greater chance of losing their job
> There is also the underlying problems that lower schools are now almost totally operated by women teachers, and virtually all forms of childcare, family charities, and Media coverage on Families is run by women
> Further to that, Men are more commonly opting out of marriage or commitments due the social changes that no longer offer advantages in such arrangements
> The rise of fatherless families has been studied in relation to discipline in school, and a rapid rise in teachers abandoning teaching as a profession
> The rise in Child custody cases is now the highest it has ever been, and almost every case relates to fathers being denied access to their children. It is now common for Family court appeals to run into dozens of appeals (one case went back to court 106 times)
> It must be clear that there is *not *a conspiracy among women to become single mothers. Most women put their children’s interests first, and many women will put up with a bad marriage for the sake of the children
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Oh my fucking word. You're not even sourcing a website. You're sourcing google search and Quora.
> 
> Fucking pathetic.
Click to expand...



And single parent homes are one of the clues to mass shooters...

Of 27 Deadliest Mass Shooters, 26 of Them Were Fatherless | RealClearPolitics


----------



## cnm

2aguy said:


> According to a 1993 Metropolitan Life Survey, "Violence in America's Public Schools," 71 percent of teachers and 90 percent of law enforcement officials state that the lack of parental supervision at home is a major factor that contributes to the violence in schools. Sixty-one percent of elementary students and 76 percent of secondary children agree with this assessment.


Thank Reagan for that, where two incomes were necessary to survive.


----------



## Tommy Tainant

2aguy said:


> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tommy Tainant said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tommy Tainant said:
> 
> 
> 
> There are signifcant numbers of single families in France . Germany and the UK. And yet our gun crime is a fraction of the US. What is the difference ? We have gun laws which restrict access to killing machines. Its not complicated mate.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Moron...... those countries are becoming more and more violent.....I have pointed out that they are behind because of the destruction of the 2 world wars....it took the social welfare state to destroy the families in those countries...and as I showed Frigidweirdo, single teenage girls raising young males drives the crime rate, not guns.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You havent proved anything. Europe and the US have similar levels of single parents, maybe a bit lower, but the US death rate is 4 times higher than any country in western europe. There is no link.
> 
> Hmmmm. What could be the difference ?
> 
> BTW its not unmarried parents driving the crime rate it is primarily poverty. But lets leave that complicated issue for adults to discuss.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Poverty is created and perpetuated by single teenage mother led homes.....
> 
> https://www.quora.com/Is-it-true-that-most-criminals-came-from-single-mother-households
> 
> Studies of children from single-parent families have shown that
> most criminals come from single mothers
> 
> 
> They are more likely to become drug/alcohol/chemical abusers, and indulge in anti-social behavior
> *More likely to become criminals*
> More likely to be truants, runaways, and drop-outs
> *More likely to suffer from mental and physical illness*
> More likely to suffer from Physical, Sexual, Emotional abuse, and Neglect. These are the main forms of abuse. They are listed in Child Abuse registers
> Over 90% of single-parents are mothers. A significant number of those mothers come from single-parent families
> It is common that a single-mother will have children by more than one partner
> The majority of child murders are carried out by women, and more mothers than fathers kill their own children
> The mothers that kill their own children are most commonly ill or depressed
> The fathers that kill their own children are most commonly denied access to their children
> *Children that come from fatherless families are more likely to join gangs
> Young people who join gangs are more likely to become criminals, and more likely to suffer from crime*
> Divorce and separation is on the rise, and in the West there are now more couples cohabiting than there are married couples
> For those that get married, there is a 60% chance they will get divorced, and that in 8 out of 10 divorces are initiated by women
> The rise in single-mother families is attributed to several factors that include women gaining more independence; having more ways to have children without men; having better financial support from the State; having more privileges under law; and men having a greater chance of losing their job
> There is also the underlying problems that lower schools are now almost totally operated by women teachers, and virtually all forms of childcare, family charities, and Media coverage on Families is run by women
> Further to that, Men are more commonly opting out of marriage or commitments due the social changes that no longer offer advantages in such arrangements
> The rise of fatherless families has been studied in relation to discipline in school, and a rapid rise in teachers abandoning teaching as a profession
> The rise in Child custody cases is now the highest it has ever been, and almost every case relates to fathers being denied access to their children. It is now common for Family court appeals to run into dozens of appeals (one case went back to court 106 times)
> It must be clear that there is *not *a conspiracy among women to become single mothers. Most women put their children’s interests first, and many women will put up with a bad marriage for the sake of the children
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Oh my fucking word. You're not even sourcing a website. You're sourcing google search and Quora.
> 
> Fucking pathetic.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> And single parent homes are one of the clues to mass shooters...
> 
> Of 27 Deadliest Mass Shooters, 26 of Them Were Fatherless | RealClearPolitics
Click to expand...

And 100% of mass shooters had...................guns.


----------



## 2aguy

cnm said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> According to a 1993 Metropolitan Life Survey, "Violence in America's Public Schools," 71 percent of teachers and 90 percent of law enforcement officials state that the lack of parental supervision at home is a major factor that contributes to the violence in schools. Sixty-one percent of elementary students and 76 percent of secondary children agree with this assessment.
> 
> 
> 
> Thank Reagan for that, where two incomes were necessary to survive.
Click to expand...



No...the welfare state...... single girls no longer need a husband to support their children...they just go on welfare and then doom their children to crime and poverty.


----------



## 2aguy

Tommy Tainant said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tommy Tainant said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Moron...... those countries are becoming more and more violent.....I have pointed out that they are behind because of the destruction of the 2 world wars....it took the social welfare state to destroy the families in those countries...and as I showed Frigidweirdo, single teenage girls raising young males drives the crime rate, not guns.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You havent proved anything. Europe and the US have similar levels of single parents, maybe a bit lower, but the US death rate is 4 times higher than any country in western europe. There is no link.
> 
> Hmmmm. What could be the difference ?
> 
> BTW its not unmarried parents driving the crime rate it is primarily poverty. But lets leave that complicated issue for adults to discuss.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Poverty is created and perpetuated by single teenage mother led homes.....
> 
> https://www.quora.com/Is-it-true-that-most-criminals-came-from-single-mother-households
> 
> Studies of children from single-parent families have shown that
> most criminals come from single mothers
> 
> 
> They are more likely to become drug/alcohol/chemical abusers, and indulge in anti-social behavior
> *More likely to become criminals*
> More likely to be truants, runaways, and drop-outs
> *More likely to suffer from mental and physical illness*
> More likely to suffer from Physical, Sexual, Emotional abuse, and Neglect. These are the main forms of abuse. They are listed in Child Abuse registers
> Over 90% of single-parents are mothers. A significant number of those mothers come from single-parent families
> It is common that a single-mother will have children by more than one partner
> The majority of child murders are carried out by women, and more mothers than fathers kill their own children
> The mothers that kill their own children are most commonly ill or depressed
> The fathers that kill their own children are most commonly denied access to their children
> *Children that come from fatherless families are more likely to join gangs
> Young people who join gangs are more likely to become criminals, and more likely to suffer from crime*
> Divorce and separation is on the rise, and in the West there are now more couples cohabiting than there are married couples
> For those that get married, there is a 60% chance they will get divorced, and that in 8 out of 10 divorces are initiated by women
> The rise in single-mother families is attributed to several factors that include women gaining more independence; having more ways to have children without men; having better financial support from the State; having more privileges under law; and men having a greater chance of losing their job
> There is also the underlying problems that lower schools are now almost totally operated by women teachers, and virtually all forms of childcare, family charities, and Media coverage on Families is run by women
> Further to that, Men are more commonly opting out of marriage or commitments due the social changes that no longer offer advantages in such arrangements
> The rise of fatherless families has been studied in relation to discipline in school, and a rapid rise in teachers abandoning teaching as a profession
> The rise in Child custody cases is now the highest it has ever been, and almost every case relates to fathers being denied access to their children. It is now common for Family court appeals to run into dozens of appeals (one case went back to court 106 times)
> It must be clear that there is *not *a conspiracy among women to become single mothers. Most women put their children’s interests first, and many women will put up with a bad marriage for the sake of the children
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Oh my fucking word. You're not even sourcing a website. You're sourcing google search and Quora.
> 
> Fucking pathetic.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> And single parent homes are one of the clues to mass shooters...
> 
> Of 27 Deadliest Mass Shooters, 26 of Them Were Fatherless | RealClearPolitics
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> And 100% of mass shooters had...................guns.
Click to expand...



And 1.1 million Americans each year have guns....that they use to stop rape, robbery and murder compared to the few mass shooters in this country....guns save more lives than mass shooters take.... if it saves one life......


----------



## Pilot1

2aguy said:


> No...the welfare state...... single girls no longer need a husband to support their children...they just go on welfare and then doom their children to crime and poverty.



Today women are accepted in the workplace just as much as men, so they can get jobs, and have careers to support themselves.  They no longer need men for support.  However, I do agree a two person husband/wife family are more likely to raise good kids.  

The government has replaced the role of Dad in many ways which is what LBJ, and the Democrats wanted.  They wanted to be able to buy votes by creating DEPENDENCY.


----------



## 2aguy

Pilot1 said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> No...the welfare state...... single girls no longer need a husband to support their children...they just go on welfare and then doom their children to crime and poverty.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Today women are accepted in the workplace just as much as men, so they can get jobs, and have careers to support themselves.  They no longer need men for support.  However, I do agree a two person husband/wife family are more likely to raise good kids.
> 
> The government has replaced the role of Dad in many ways which is what LBJ, and the Democrats wanted.  They wanted to be able to buy votes by creating DEPENDENCY.
Click to expand...



We aren't talking successful women here...we are talking young, teenage girls with no education or job skills having babies without husbands and fathers in the home...... and that is driving the crime rate here and over seas.....


----------



## 2aguy

Gun crime keeps going up in Britain..

British Politicians Declare War on Knives

The mayhem that's closed London's homicide gap with its trans-Atlantic rival appears to be largely the result of violent criminal gangs. Firearms are strictly restricted in the U.K., including a near-total ban on handguns. Nevertheless, "_n the 12 months to October 2017, there were 2,500 offences involving guns: *a 16 per cent increase on the previous year and a 44 per cent increase on 2014,"* the London Assembly's Police and Crime Committee noted in January. Criminals, it seems, are not averse to committing crimes—including the illegal acquisition of tools that help them commit more crimes.

--------

Gun crime in London increases by 42% - BBC News

Gun crime offences in London surged by 42% in the last year, according to official statistics.
_


----------



## Pilot1

2aguy said:


> We aren't talking successful women here...we are talking young, teenage girls with no education or job skills having babies without husbands and fathers in the home...... and that is driving the crime rate here and over seas.....



Agreed, but they need to get a path to success other than having six babies by five "Baby Daddies".  This whole concept of it being OK to have kids out of wedlock with multiple fathers is damaging.  Yes, the kids grow up in unstable homes where education isn't respected, then turn to gangs, and crime.


----------



## idb

2aguy said:


> idb said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> idb said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> idb said:
> 
> 
> 
> If your reasoning about Britain being battered in two world wars (and now you throw in the Depression) causing crime rates to rise is true, then why has the US been so far ahead of them in this regard for so long?
> Especially when, in your reasoning, they have been insulated from all this mayhem and living in a land of milk and honey.
> Are you saying that Americans are just naturally bigger arseholes than the Brits?
> 
> Why do you hate Americans?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Our society didn't get hit with the destruction, we had a booming post War economy with stable families...it wasn't until the 1960s where we had the Great Society destroy those families...especially minority families in our democrat party controlled cities....  That is when single teenage girls could have children without fathers in the home.....and from the 1960s going forward you had the huge crime problem here.......Britain is just now starting that violence problem....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> So....I think I might understand now.
> Correct me if I've got it wrong.
> 
> In the UK, women who grew up during the World Wars and Depression are just starting to have children.
> The children don't have fathers because all the men were killed in the War.
> Also, they didn't have children before now because the place was a wreck...as well as all the men being dead.
> The children are now out on a murderous rampage throughout the country.
> 
> It all makes perfect sense now.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> No....moron.   The British culture was still intact right after the war so they still had family structures in place..... then they started their social welfare state which allowed young girls to have children without husbands and fathers...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> So where did the issue with all the men being killed come into it...I'm sure you brought that into your well-reasoned argument earlier on.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> You had large numbers of young males killed in the wars....it slows down the growth of a society....both economically and culturally which is why Europe lagged behind the U.S....
Click to expand...

And prevents crime obviously.
Now there are more males around there is more crime...I follow you now.


----------



## idb

2aguy said:


> harmonica said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> harmonica said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> harmonica said:
> 
> 
> 
> key word '''DEBATING'' --that means you have no stats/proof/etc
> the cities have the same diversity/etc
> in fact, LA, CHi and NYC have  much denser populations!!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> NYC had Guilliani....Chicago and St. Louis are letting violent criminals back on their streets....over and over again...
> 
> This is Chicago's problem...
> 
> A Detailed Look At Last Weekend's Chicago Gang Violence Shooting Victims - The Truth About Guns
> 
> Behind the scenes, Chicago Police put out a “Detailed Situational Report” (DSR) each weekday. On it, their “Data Warehouse” lists shooting incidents and murders along with guns recovered.
> Inside, the report details the names and descriptions of each of the victims and suspects, including any gang affiliations and the location of each incident. Furthermore, it shows each person’s criminal history, a description of their injuries and their Strategic Subject List score. Lastly, it contains a narrative of what happened.
> Because it’s Chicago — where support from “the community” typically hovers near zero — police seldom identify any suspects, much less make arrests. In fact, CPD has made arrests in only 13% of homicides so far in 2018.
> A casual glance through the confidential DSR reveals that virtually every victim of Chicago violence last weekend had gang ties. Either as a member of a gang or those (often young females) who hang out with gang members. The other glaring common thread: the victims themselves usually have criminal histories, too.
> In fact, poring over the fifteen pages of incidents (pasted end to end, that’s over 10 feet of incidents), only 21 of the 78 victims did _not_ have a criminal history. Meanwhile, those with arrest records garnered a total of 813 arrests between them.
> Eight hundred thirteen arrests.
> At the same time, Cook County’s infamous “catch and release” criminal justice system only managed to gain convictions in 120 of those 813 arrests.
> For example, one 23-year-old Black P. Stone gang member who was shot in the gut had 35 arrests and _zero convictions_. One perforated 66-year-old had 55 arrests!
> Another 32-year-old Four Corner Hustlers member, Charles Green, had 62 arrests, but he won’t re-offend. Not after he suffered multiple gunshot wounds that proved fatal. Green’s colorful past included arrests for dope, more dope, armed robbery, and a murder for which Cook County prosecutor Kim Foxx released him without charges.
> Tip for the day, besides avoiding Chicago: mommas, don’t let your girls hang out with gang members. Otherwise, they can find themselves caught in the crossfire, and they don’t always survive.
> Three young adult women without any criminal history or gang affiliations suffered gunshot wounds in a single incident at 1338 S. Millard Ave. Two offenders began shooting into “a large street gathering” wounding a total of seven.  Tragically, a 17-year-old girl named Jahnae Patterson died there from a wound to her face.
> --------------
> *Meanwhile, another victim at that same location, aged 14, remains in good condition.  How terrible, you say?  That same 14-year-old named Marion already has two arrests for car burglaries and a Strategic Subject List (SSL) score of 385.  The SSL score serves to indicate potential future criminal behavior.  As defined by the City of Chicago:*
> 
> Another case caught my eye. The victim, Miguel, a 19-year-old Hispanic male, told police he saw some people who recognized him emerge from a convenience store.  For some unknown reason (he says) they began chasing him in the 3900 block of S. Rockwell. In the alley behind the store, he heard gunshots and felt pain.
> 
> Before you start oozing sympathy for this poor teen, know that CPD says Miguel also moonlights as a Satan Disciples gang member and has built his SSL score to 500. With a SSL score that high, Darwin will probably catch up with him soon enough, assuming he survives this hospital visit.
> 
> --------
> 
> Baltimore...
> 
> 2017 homicide data provide insight into Baltimore's gun wars, police say
> 
> 
> 
> About 86 percent of the victims and 85 percent of the 118 suspects identified by police had prior criminal records. And about 46 percent of victims and 44 percent of suspects had previously been arrested for gun crimes, the data show.
> ----
> The average homicide victim in Baltimore in 2017 had 11 previous arrests on his record. About 73 percent had drug arrests, and nearly 50 percent had been arrested for a violent crime. About 30 percent were on parole or probation at the time they were killed, and more than 6 percent were on parole or probation for a gun crime.
> 
> Twenty percent of the victims were known members of a gang or drug crew, according to the data.
> 
> The average homicide suspect, meanwhile, had 9 previous arrests on his record. About 70 percent had drug arrests, and nearly half had been arrested for a violent crime. Nearly 36 percent were on parole or probation, and 6 percent were on parole or probation for a gun crime, the data show.
> 
> Eighteen percent of the suspects were known members of a gang or drug crew, according to the data.
> 
> Police did not know the motive behind nearly half of the killings, but at least 20 were related to retaliation, according to the data.
> 
> 
> =============
> 
> Chicago..
> 
> 
> Actual report on shootings in chicago...http://urbanlabs.uchicago.edu/attachments/store/2435a5d4658e2ca19f4f225b810ce0dbdb9231cbdb8d702e784087469ee3/UChicagoCrimeLab+Gun+Violence+in+Chicago+2016.pdf
> 
> 
> 1/19/17   Shooters in Chicago criminal record research from U of C
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _Nearly 40 percent of victims had more than 10 prior arrests, while the share with more than 20 prior arrests rose from 14 to 18 percent in 2016._
> 
> _The share of victims with a current or prior gang affiliation as recorded by CPD was about the same in both years (53 and 54 percent)._
> 
> And now the shooters . . .
> 
> _Individuals arrested for a homicide or shooting in Chicago in 2016 and 2015 had similar prior criminal records: around 90 percent had at least one prior arrest, approximately 50 percent had a prior arrest for a violent crime specifically, and almost 40 percent had a prior gun arrest._
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _The average person arrested for a homicide or shooting in both years had nearly 12 prior arrests, with almost 45 percent having had more than 10 prior arrests, and almost 20 percent having had more than 20 prior arrests._
> 
> Why is anyone in Chicago (or elsewhere) talking about gun control? Clearly, Chicago’s revolving door justice system is a failure that allows dangerous killers to roam the city streets.
> ============================
> 
> 
> 12/27/16  Gang shootings in Chicago over christmas..90% gang affiliated
> 
> 
> Gang Killers In Chicago Used Christmas Gatherings To Target Their Victims
> 
> Gang killers, knowing their targets would be home for Christmas, launched a bloody weekend of shootings in Chicago that left 11 dead and another 37 wounded.
> 
> "We now know that the majority of these shootings and homicides were targeted attacks by gangs against potential rivals who were at holiday gatherings. This was followed by several acts of retaliatory gun violence," police spokesman Anthony Guglielmi said in a statement Monday.
> 
> --------------
> 
> *The violence primarily occurred in areas with historical gang conflicts on the South and West Side of Chicago."*
> 
> 
> And this is what we keep telling you anti gunners and you refuse to believe it....
> 
> *"Ninety percent of those fatally wounded had gang affiliations, criminal histories and were pre-identified by the department's strategic subject algorithm as being a potential suspect or victim of gun violence," Guglielmi said.*
> ==
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> again, you make no sense
> STL is rated in the top 10 *most dangerous *cities--sometimes 1
> Chi, NYC and LA not even in top ten
> you have no argument there
> explain this to me
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Yes....I showed you why, they let violent gun criminals out on bail and out of jail, over and over again so they won't be perceived as racists...dittos Chicago.....
> 
> Baltimore has the same extreme gun control as Chicago and New York, and a tiny population......and higher gun murder numbers than New York or L.A.....
> 
> New York had the police techniques of Rudy Guilliani and his police Comissioner that they are still using...Chicago is not.....Baltimore is not, D.C. is not...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Germany ,France, and England = lower murder rates with very strict gun control
> NYCity 8.6 MILLION people
> 
> .....final--you need to attack the problem with MULTIPLE ways--and gun control MUST be one of those
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Europe was always less violent than the U.S......and after Britain banned and confiscated guns they have more gun crime not less....and violence across Europe and Britain is growing, not going down.
> 
> You need to explain how gun murder went down 49%, gun crime went down 75%, and violent crime went down 72% as more Americans started to own and actually carry guns...and you can't....
> 
> And Chicago and Baltimore have extreme gun control and have more gun murder than New York..the difference?   New York had Rudy Guilliani and his police commissioner, and they are continuing to use their tactics to combat crime while Baltimore and Chicago let violent, repeat gun offenders out of jail over and over again.  I have shown you the revolving door policy for violent gun offenders in Chicago, it is also happening in Baltimore and St. Louis....
> 
> Criminal control is the issue, not gun control.  Do you really think that law abiding gun owners are doing the gun murder in these cities?   It is the repeat gun offenders who are allowed to go back into these democrat party controlled inner cities that rack up the body counts...not John and Jane Q. Citizen carrying guns for self defense.
Click to expand...

Fewer Americans own guns now.
You must know this...you have so many statistics to hand.
It's just that gun owners own more guns each.


----------



## idb

cnm said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Handguns are banned in the U.K
> 
> 
> 
> UK Legal Weapons and Firearms Law 2018
Click to expand...

I went through this with him about Australia.
He still insists guns are banned there despite me quoting the law at him.
Fingers in the ears and "lalalalalala"


----------



## frigidweirdo

2aguy said:


> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tommy Tainant said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tommy Tainant said:
> 
> 
> 
> There are signifcant numbers of single families in France . Germany and the UK. And yet our gun crime is a fraction of the US. What is the difference ? We have gun laws which restrict access to killing machines. Its not complicated mate.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Moron...... those countries are becoming more and more violent.....I have pointed out that they are behind because of the destruction of the 2 world wars....it took the social welfare state to destroy the families in those countries...and as I showed Frigidweirdo, single teenage girls raising young males drives the crime rate, not guns.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You havent proved anything. Europe and the US have similar levels of single parents, maybe a bit lower, but the US death rate is 4 times higher than any country in western europe. There is no link.
> 
> Hmmmm. What could be the difference ?
> 
> BTW its not unmarried parents driving the crime rate it is primarily poverty. But lets leave that complicated issue for adults to discuss.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Poverty is created and perpetuated by single teenage mother led homes.....
> 
> https://www.quora.com/Is-it-true-that-most-criminals-came-from-single-mother-households
> 
> Studies of children from single-parent families have shown that
> most criminals come from single mothers
> 
> 
> They are more likely to become drug/alcohol/chemical abusers, and indulge in anti-social behavior
> *More likely to become criminals*
> More likely to be truants, runaways, and drop-outs
> *More likely to suffer from mental and physical illness*
> More likely to suffer from Physical, Sexual, Emotional abuse, and Neglect. These are the main forms of abuse. They are listed in Child Abuse registers
> Over 90% of single-parents are mothers. A significant number of those mothers come from single-parent families
> It is common that a single-mother will have children by more than one partner
> The majority of child murders are carried out by women, and more mothers than fathers kill their own children
> The mothers that kill their own children are most commonly ill or depressed
> The fathers that kill their own children are most commonly denied access to their children
> *Children that come from fatherless families are more likely to join gangs
> Young people who join gangs are more likely to become criminals, and more likely to suffer from crime*
> Divorce and separation is on the rise, and in the West there are now more couples cohabiting than there are married couples
> For those that get married, there is a 60% chance they will get divorced, and that in 8 out of 10 divorces are initiated by women
> The rise in single-mother families is attributed to several factors that include women gaining more independence; having more ways to have children without men; having better financial support from the State; having more privileges under law; and men having a greater chance of losing their job
> There is also the underlying problems that lower schools are now almost totally operated by women teachers, and virtually all forms of childcare, family charities, and Media coverage on Families is run by women
> Further to that, Men are more commonly opting out of marriage or commitments due the social changes that no longer offer advantages in such arrangements
> The rise of fatherless families has been studied in relation to discipline in school, and a rapid rise in teachers abandoning teaching as a profession
> The rise in Child custody cases is now the highest it has ever been, and almost every case relates to fathers being denied access to their children. It is now common for Family court appeals to run into dozens of appeals (one case went back to court 106 times)
> It must be clear that there is *not *a conspiracy among women to become single mothers. Most women put their children’s interests first, and many women will put up with a bad marriage for the sake of the children
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Oh my fucking word. You're not even sourcing a website. You're sourcing google search and Quora.
> 
> Fucking pathetic.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> And single parent homes are one of the clues to mass shooters...
> 
> Of 27 Deadliest Mass Shooters, 26 of Them Were Fatherless | RealClearPolitics
Click to expand...


I'm not disagreeing with you that this isn't a problem. 

I'm saying it's not the only problem. 

There are fatherless kids in the UK and the US. 






Now, single parent households were LOWER in the US in the 1980s, and yet murders were HIGHER than in 2005. 

And yet your claim is the more single parent families, the worse the crime. 

Clearly that's not true.

Clearly there are lots of factors at play, and guns are one of those, seeing how the murder rate and crime rate in the UK is much lower than the number of single parent families would suggest, on your part.


----------



## frigidweirdo

2aguy said:


> Tommy Tainant said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tommy Tainant said:
> 
> 
> 
> You havent proved anything. Europe and the US have similar levels of single parents, maybe a bit lower, but the US death rate is 4 times higher than any country in western europe. There is no link.
> 
> Hmmmm. What could be the difference ?
> 
> BTW its not unmarried parents driving the crime rate it is primarily poverty. But lets leave that complicated issue for adults to discuss.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Poverty is created and perpetuated by single teenage mother led homes.....
> 
> https://www.quora.com/Is-it-true-that-most-criminals-came-from-single-mother-households
> 
> Studies of children from single-parent families have shown that
> most criminals come from single mothers
> 
> 
> They are more likely to become drug/alcohol/chemical abusers, and indulge in anti-social behavior
> *More likely to become criminals*
> More likely to be truants, runaways, and drop-outs
> *More likely to suffer from mental and physical illness*
> More likely to suffer from Physical, Sexual, Emotional abuse, and Neglect. These are the main forms of abuse. They are listed in Child Abuse registers
> Over 90% of single-parents are mothers. A significant number of those mothers come from single-parent families
> It is common that a single-mother will have children by more than one partner
> The majority of child murders are carried out by women, and more mothers than fathers kill their own children
> The mothers that kill their own children are most commonly ill or depressed
> The fathers that kill their own children are most commonly denied access to their children
> *Children that come from fatherless families are more likely to join gangs
> Young people who join gangs are more likely to become criminals, and more likely to suffer from crime*
> Divorce and separation is on the rise, and in the West there are now more couples cohabiting than there are married couples
> For those that get married, there is a 60% chance they will get divorced, and that in 8 out of 10 divorces are initiated by women
> The rise in single-mother families is attributed to several factors that include women gaining more independence; having more ways to have children without men; having better financial support from the State; having more privileges under law; and men having a greater chance of losing their job
> There is also the underlying problems that lower schools are now almost totally operated by women teachers, and virtually all forms of childcare, family charities, and Media coverage on Families is run by women
> Further to that, Men are more commonly opting out of marriage or commitments due the social changes that no longer offer advantages in such arrangements
> The rise of fatherless families has been studied in relation to discipline in school, and a rapid rise in teachers abandoning teaching as a profession
> The rise in Child custody cases is now the highest it has ever been, and almost every case relates to fathers being denied access to their children. It is now common for Family court appeals to run into dozens of appeals (one case went back to court 106 times)
> It must be clear that there is *not *a conspiracy among women to become single mothers. Most women put their children’s interests first, and many women will put up with a bad marriage for the sake of the children
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Oh my fucking word. You're not even sourcing a website. You're sourcing google search and Quora.
> 
> Fucking pathetic.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> And single parent homes are one of the clues to mass shooters...
> 
> Of 27 Deadliest Mass Shooters, 26 of Them Were Fatherless | RealClearPolitics
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> And 100% of mass shooters had...................guns.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> And 1.1 million Americans each year have guns....that they use to stop rape, robbery and murder compared to the few mass shooters in this country....guns save more lives than mass shooters take.... if it saves one life......
Click to expand...


But there's more crime they have to stop.


----------



## JoeB131

2aguy said:


> Yep....young males, raised without fathers to teach them to be adult men, mixed with 3rd world males running the drug gangs, and the British police hamstrung due to lack of manpower, money, and politically correct rules of engagment.....



London with a population of 9 million has had 121 murders. 

Chicago with a population of 3 million has had 486 homicides... 

Looks like Gun Control works just fine to me.


----------



## Skull Pilot

harmonica said:


> FOUR times lower than the US


And NH has a murder rate 4 times lower than CA despite CA having the harshest gun laws in the country


----------



## Skull Pilot

frigidweirdo said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tommy Tainant said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> You think that criminals are not getting more guns now?    Your post has no bearing on the fact that Britain's criminals are getting more guns... you only focus on gun murder since that hasn't changed in Britain, except for the massive spike immediately after they banned guns.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You want to show that criminals are getting more guns now. Then prove it. Until then I call bullshit on your fake crap.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Here......a history of increasing gun crime in Britain after they banned guns...
> 
> Culture of violence: Gun crime goes up by 89% in a decade | Daily Mail Online
> 
> The latest Government figures show that the total number of firearm offences in England and Wales has increased from 5,209 in 1998/99 to 9,865 last year - a rise of 89 per cent.
> 
> *The number of people injured or killed by guns, excluding air weapons, has increased from 864 in 1998/99 to a provisional figure of 1,760 in 2008/09, an increase of 104 per cent . *
> 
> 
> ========
> 
> 
> 
> Crime rise is biggest in a decade, ONS figures show
> 
> Ministers will also be concerned that the country is becoming increasingly violent in nature, with gun crime rising 23% to 6,375 offences, largely driven by an increase in the use of handguns.
> 
> =========
> 
> 
> 
> Gun crime in London increases by 42% - BBC News
> 
> Gun crime offences in London surged by 42% in the last year, according to official statistics.
> 
> Top trauma surgeon reveals shocking extent of London’s gun crime
> 
> A leading trauma surgeon has told how the number of patients treated for gunshot injuries at a major London hospital has doubled in the last five years.
> 
> ----
> 
> He said the hospital’s major trauma centre had seen a bigger rise in gunshot injuries compared to knife wounds and that the average age of victims was getting younger.
> 
> -----
> 
> Last year, gun crime offences in London increased for a third year running and by 42 per cent, from 1,793 offences in 2015/16 to 2,544 offences in 2016/17. Police have seized 635 guns off the streets so far this year.
> 
> Dr Griffiths, who also teaches medical students, said: “Our numbers of victims of gun injury have doubled [since 2012]. Gunshot injuries represent about 2.5 per cent of our penetrating trauma.
> 
> -----
> 
> Dr Griffiths said the average age of gun crime victims needing treatment at the hospital had decreased from 25 to the mid to late teens since 2012.
> 
> He added that medics at the Barts Health hospital’s major trauma centre in Whitechapel had seen a bigger rise in patients with gun injuries rather than knife wounds and that most were caused by pistols or shotguns.
> 
> Met Police commander Jim Stokley, who was also invited to speak at the meeting, said that handguns and shotguns were the weapons of choice and that 46 per cent of London’s gun crime discharges were gang-related.
> 
> He said: “We believe that a lot of it is associated with the drugs trade, and by that I mean people dealing drugs at street level and disagreements between different gangs.”
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Guns arent banned in the UK. But gun ownership is limited. Thats why our death rates are a fraction of yours. You have lost this argument so many times its laughable.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> No....you are wrong....gun ownership is limited for law abiding citizens...the ones who weren't using them for crime in the first place...but among criminals, gun crime is up 42% in London and up 23% across England and Wales...they obviously didn't get the message that guns are limited.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Guns are limited, "law abiding people" can have guns too.
> 
> Crime is up. You've been told why crime is up, because of the right wing government in power.
> 
> But crime is up, and still MASSIVELY LOWER THAN IN THE USA.
Click to expand...

Countries Compared by Crime > Total crimes per 1000. International Statistics at NationMaster.com

Crimes per 1000

UK   110
US   41

Who has more crime per capita?


----------



## Skull Pilot

harmonica said:


> answer the question:
> why is UK's murder rate 4 times lower?
> or France's/Germany's?



Tell me why NH has a murder rate more than 4 times lower than CA  despite CA having the harshest gun laws in the country


----------



## JoeB131

Skull Pilot said:


> Crimes per 1000
> 
> UK 110
> US 41
> 
> Who has more crime per capita?



"Crimes" is a very nebulous definition.  Our police are so busy with murders they don't have time to break up bar fights.


----------



## Skull Pilot

JoeB131 said:


> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> 
> Crimes per 1000
> 
> UK 110
> US 41
> 
> Who has more crime per capita?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "Crimes" is a very nebulous definition.  Our police are so busy with murders they don't have time to break up bar fights.
Click to expand...

The UK has twice as many rape and assault victims per 1000 as the US.


----------



## cnm

idb said:


> cnm said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Handguns are banned in the U.K
> 
> 
> 
> UK Legal Weapons and Firearms Law 2018
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I went through this with him about Australia.
> He still insists guns are banned there despite me quoting the law at him.
> Fingers in the ears and "lalalalalala"
Click to expand...

Loonies will loon.


----------



## frigidweirdo

Skull Pilot said:


> JoeB131 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> 
> Crimes per 1000
> 
> UK 110
> US 41
> 
> Who has more crime per capita?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "Crimes" is a very nebulous definition.  Our police are so busy with murders they don't have time to break up bar fights.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The UK has twice as many rape and assault victims as the US.
Click to expand...


No, it doesn't. 

The US has a very strict definition of things like this. Whereas the UK has a much lower threshold.

The UK has a HIGHER rape and assault statistics rate. But not necessarily more victims.


----------



## cnm

Skull Pilot said:


> The UK has twice as many rape and assault victims as the US.


Possibly it has twice as many victims who report the crimes to police.


----------



## Skull Pilot

frigidweirdo said:


> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JoeB131 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> 
> Crimes per 1000
> 
> UK 110
> US 41
> 
> Who has more crime per capita?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "Crimes" is a very nebulous definition.  Our police are so busy with murders they don't have time to break up bar fights.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The UK has twice as many rape and assault victims as the US.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No, it doesn't.
> 
> The US has a very strict definition of things like this. Whereas the UK has a much lower threshold.
> 
> The UK has a HIGHER rape and assault statistics rate. But not necessarily more victims.
Click to expand...


Wow another imbecile who doesn't understand ratios

You do realize that a large country with a large population can have a lower CRIME RATE and still have more victims than a small country with a small population with a high crime rate don't you

You are TWICE AS LIKELY to be raped or assaulted in the UK than the US


----------



## Skull Pilot

cnm said:


> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> 
> The UK has twice as many rape and assault victims as the US.
> 
> 
> 
> Possibly it has twice as many victims who report the crimes to police.
Click to expand...


Speculation therefore irrelevant


----------



## Pilot1

We have a societal violence problem in the U.S. almost solely localized to inner city Black, on Black violence.  The problem is elements of the Black Community being SO DESPERATE they resort to violence to settle disputes needs to be addressed by city leadership which is 100% DEMOCRAT.


----------



## Vagabond63

Vagabond63 said:
			
		

> …guess what the first thing those 7 million men wanted to do when they got home to their wives and girlfriends? I'll tell you, start families!





			
				2aguy said:
			
		

> You have no idea what the War, followed by the Depression did to those countries.....followed by World War 2.....



Oh, so I have no idea? Really?



			
				2aguy said:
			
		

> The desire to return to “normal” was reflected not only in a postwar upsurge in marriages, births and the reconstitution of conventional family life…



Your own source agrees with me, thanks for highlighting it in bold blue font.

Oh by the way the UK military deaths total for WW2 = 383,700 (less than in WW1). Guess what the survivors wanted to do when they were demobilised? Baby boom anyone?


----------



## Vagabond63

2aguy said:


> Tommy Tainant said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tommy Tainant said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> 
> Oh great, another thing pulled right out of the hat. Don't you think doing a little research before making ridiculous claims would be a good idea?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Teenage pregnancy by state in the US. Funny how it's the right wing states that have the most teenage pregnancy, isn't it?
> 
> Surely it'd be the other way around, wouldn't right wing states give teenage mothers LESS MONEY?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Moron....out of wedlock birth rates are highest in the Black community, the community with the highest incarceration rates and the highest gun murder rates....are you really this dense?  The Border states....Hispanic out of wedlock birth rates.....
> 
> 77% black births to single moms, 49% for Hispanic immigrants
> 
> *77% black births to single moms, 49% for Hispanic immigrants*
> 
> -------
> The National Center for Health Statistics said that in 2015, 77.3 percent of non-immigrant black births were illegitimate. The national non-immigrant average is 42 percent, and it was 30 percent for whites.
> 
> The new numbers were in a Center for Immigration Studies analysis on the births to immigrants. That total is 32.7 percent, but to Hispanic immigrants it is 48.9 percent, according to Steven Camarota, the director of research for the Center for Immigration Studies.
> ---
> 
> _*There is good evidence that children born to unmarried parents are at higher risk of dropping out of high school, having run-ins with the law, and other negative social outcomes. This maybe especially true for children born to immigrants because of the challenges associated with adjusting to life in their parents' adopted country.*_
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> There are signifcant numbers of single families in France . Germany and the UK. And yet our gun crime is a fraction of the US. What is the difference ? We have gun laws which restrict access to killing machines. Its not complicated mate.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Moron...... those countries are becoming more and more violent.....I have pointed out that they are behind because of the destruction of the 2 world wars....it took the social welfare state to destroy the families in those countries...and as I showed Frigidweirdo, single teenage girls raising young males drives the crime rate, not guns.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You havent proved anything. Europe and the US have similar levels of single parents, maybe a bit lower, but the US death rate is 4 times higher than any country in western europe. There is no link.
> 
> Hmmmm. What could be the difference ?
> 
> BTW its not unmarried parents driving the crime rate it is primarily poverty. But lets leave that complicated issue for adults to discuss.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> We had tremendous poverty in the Great Depression, intact families and very little crime.   Single teenage girls raising young males drives crime....
Click to expand...


----------



## Vagabond63

2aguy said:


> idb said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> idb said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> 
> Don't I? How the fuck would you know?
> 
> The point I was making, and somehow it managed to slip massively past you, was that you said that the death of so many males caused families to break up, which then led to social problems, and therefore by the time the 2000s came along, and all this violence, the widowers of those who died in WW1 were probably dead, and widowers of WW2 were probably in their 80s or 90s.
> 
> So how the FUCK does that impact the 2000s?
> 
> Can you please explain how a person dying in WW1 impacted the crime rate going up in the 2000s?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No...moron, that isn't what I said... I said the destruction and death of the Two World Wars, and now that I think of it, the Depression, slowed down their society advancing the way the U.S. did....   So, moron, you have the death and destruction of World War 1, and it's aftermath, the Depression, and then World War 2.....major, catastrophic events....... and they slowed down those societies in Europe......  now you have the social welfare states wrecking the family structures in those countries, allowing young teenage girls to have children without husbands, and fathers for those children, so the young males have no one to raise them into young men....   And you are now seeing the effects of that in the increasing violence in those societies, especially Britain.....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> If your reasoning about Britain being battered in two world wars (and now you throw in the Depression) causing crime rates to rise is true, then why has the US been so far ahead of them in this regard for so long?
> Especially when, in your reasoning, they have been insulated from all this mayhem and living in a land of milk and honey.
> Are you saying that Americans are just naturally bigger arseholes than the Brits?
> 
> Why do you hate Americans?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Our society didn't get hit with the destruction, we had a booming post War economy with stable families...it wasn't until the 1960s where we had the Great Society destroy those families...especially minority families in our democrat party controlled cities....  That is when single teenage girls could have children without fathers in the home.....and from the 1960s going forward you had the huge crime problem here.......Britain is just now starting that violence problem....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> So....I think I might understand now.
> Correct me if I've got it wrong.
> 
> In the UK, women who grew up during the World Wars and Depression are just starting to have children.
> The children don't have fathers because all the men were killed in the War.
> Also, they didn't have children before now because the place was a wreck...as well as all the men being dead.
> The children are now out on a murderous rampage throughout the country.
> 
> It all makes perfect sense now.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> No....moron.   The British culture was still intact right after the war so they still had family structures in place..... then they started their social welfare state which allowed young girls to have children without husbands and fathers...
Click to expand...


----------



## Vagabond63

Pilot1 said:


> In the UK it is ILLEGAL to use a firearm for self defense purposes, and their are extremely restrictive rules for ownership, what can, and can not be legally owned, and where they can be kept.



Erm, no it's not illegal to use a firearm for self defence in the UK. If someone comes at you firing a gun, you have every right to fire back if you have a gun to hand. It's all part of our common law of self defence. The problem comes with the legal principle of proportionate response to a given situation. If you disturb a burglar who turns and runs, you can't shoot him in the back, for example. A more detailed examination can be found here: Self-Defence and the Prevention of Crime | The Crown Prosecution Service


----------



## 2aguy

Skull Pilot said:


> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tommy Tainant said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> 
> You want to show that criminals are getting more guns now. Then prove it. Until then I call bullshit on your fake crap.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here......a history of increasing gun crime in Britain after they banned guns...
> 
> Culture of violence: Gun crime goes up by 89% in a decade | Daily Mail Online
> 
> The latest Government figures show that the total number of firearm offences in England and Wales has increased from 5,209 in 1998/99 to 9,865 last year - a rise of 89 per cent.
> 
> *The number of people injured or killed by guns, excluding air weapons, has increased from 864 in 1998/99 to a provisional figure of 1,760 in 2008/09, an increase of 104 per cent . *
> 
> 
> ========
> 
> 
> 
> Crime rise is biggest in a decade, ONS figures show
> 
> Ministers will also be concerned that the country is becoming increasingly violent in nature, with gun crime rising 23% to 6,375 offences, largely driven by an increase in the use of handguns.
> 
> =========
> 
> 
> 
> Gun crime in London increases by 42% - BBC News
> 
> Gun crime offences in London surged by 42% in the last year, according to official statistics.
> 
> Top trauma surgeon reveals shocking extent of London’s gun crime
> 
> A leading trauma surgeon has told how the number of patients treated for gunshot injuries at a major London hospital has doubled in the last five years.
> 
> ----
> 
> He said the hospital’s major trauma centre had seen a bigger rise in gunshot injuries compared to knife wounds and that the average age of victims was getting younger.
> 
> -----
> 
> Last year, gun crime offences in London increased for a third year running and by 42 per cent, from 1,793 offences in 2015/16 to 2,544 offences in 2016/17. Police have seized 635 guns off the streets so far this year.
> 
> Dr Griffiths, who also teaches medical students, said: “Our numbers of victims of gun injury have doubled [since 2012]. Gunshot injuries represent about 2.5 per cent of our penetrating trauma.
> 
> -----
> 
> Dr Griffiths said the average age of gun crime victims needing treatment at the hospital had decreased from 25 to the mid to late teens since 2012.
> 
> He added that medics at the Barts Health hospital’s major trauma centre in Whitechapel had seen a bigger rise in patients with gun injuries rather than knife wounds and that most were caused by pistols or shotguns.
> 
> Met Police commander Jim Stokley, who was also invited to speak at the meeting, said that handguns and shotguns were the weapons of choice and that 46 per cent of London’s gun crime discharges were gang-related.
> 
> He said: “We believe that a lot of it is associated with the drugs trade, and by that I mean people dealing drugs at street level and disagreements between different gangs.”
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Guns arent banned in the UK. But gun ownership is limited. Thats why our death rates are a fraction of yours. You have lost this argument so many times its laughable.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> No....you are wrong....gun ownership is limited for law abiding citizens...the ones who weren't using them for crime in the first place...but among criminals, gun crime is up 42% in London and up 23% across England and Wales...they obviously didn't get the message that guns are limited.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Guns are limited, "law abiding people" can have guns too.
> 
> Crime is up. You've been told why crime is up, because of the right wing government in power.
> 
> But crime is up, and still MASSIVELY LOWER THAN IN THE USA.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Countries Compared by Crime > Total crimes per 1000. International Statistics at NationMaster.com
> 
> Crimes per 1000
> 
> UK   110
> US   41
> 
> Who has more crime per capita?
Click to expand...



They only want to talk gun murder because they know Britain never had a high gun murder rate......that way they don't have to explain why the actual gun crime rate is going up, on an island that banned and confiscated guns.  Meanwhile, they have to ignore that as more Americans own and actually carry guns, our gun murder rate went down 49%, our gun crime went down 75%, our violent crime went down 72%....they can't explain that with their theories, so they keep saying...but gun murder...gun murder.....


----------



## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> …guess what the first thing those 7 million men wanted to do when they got home to their wives and girlfriends? I'll tell you, start families!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You have no idea what the War, followed by the Depression did to those countries.....followed by World War 2.....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Oh, so I have no idea? Really?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The desire to return to “normal” was reflected not only in a postwar upsurge in marriages, births and the reconstitution of conventional family life…
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Your own source agrees with me, thanks for highlighting it in bold blue font.
> 
> Oh by the way the UK military deaths total for WW2 = 383,700 (less than in WW1). Guess what the survivors wanted to do when they were demobilised? Baby boom anyone?
Click to expand...



Yep.....in actual family units with fathers in the home.....and now the social welfare system has created generations of young, single, teenage mothers raising young males without fathers.....


----------



## 2aguy

idb said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> harmonica said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> harmonica said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> NYC had Guilliani....Chicago and St. Louis are letting violent criminals back on their streets....over and over again...
> 
> This is Chicago's problem...
> 
> A Detailed Look At Last Weekend's Chicago Gang Violence Shooting Victims - The Truth About Guns
> 
> Behind the scenes, Chicago Police put out a “Detailed Situational Report” (DSR) each weekday. On it, their “Data Warehouse” lists shooting incidents and murders along with guns recovered.
> Inside, the report details the names and descriptions of each of the victims and suspects, including any gang affiliations and the location of each incident. Furthermore, it shows each person’s criminal history, a description of their injuries and their Strategic Subject List score. Lastly, it contains a narrative of what happened.
> Because it’s Chicago — where support from “the community” typically hovers near zero — police seldom identify any suspects, much less make arrests. In fact, CPD has made arrests in only 13% of homicides so far in 2018.
> A casual glance through the confidential DSR reveals that virtually every victim of Chicago violence last weekend had gang ties. Either as a member of a gang or those (often young females) who hang out with gang members. The other glaring common thread: the victims themselves usually have criminal histories, too.
> In fact, poring over the fifteen pages of incidents (pasted end to end, that’s over 10 feet of incidents), only 21 of the 78 victims did _not_ have a criminal history. Meanwhile, those with arrest records garnered a total of 813 arrests between them.
> Eight hundred thirteen arrests.
> At the same time, Cook County’s infamous “catch and release” criminal justice system only managed to gain convictions in 120 of those 813 arrests.
> For example, one 23-year-old Black P. Stone gang member who was shot in the gut had 35 arrests and _zero convictions_. One perforated 66-year-old had 55 arrests!
> Another 32-year-old Four Corner Hustlers member, Charles Green, had 62 arrests, but he won’t re-offend. Not after he suffered multiple gunshot wounds that proved fatal. Green’s colorful past included arrests for dope, more dope, armed robbery, and a murder for which Cook County prosecutor Kim Foxx released him without charges.
> Tip for the day, besides avoiding Chicago: mommas, don’t let your girls hang out with gang members. Otherwise, they can find themselves caught in the crossfire, and they don’t always survive.
> Three young adult women without any criminal history or gang affiliations suffered gunshot wounds in a single incident at 1338 S. Millard Ave. Two offenders began shooting into “a large street gathering” wounding a total of seven.  Tragically, a 17-year-old girl named Jahnae Patterson died there from a wound to her face.
> --------------
> *Meanwhile, another victim at that same location, aged 14, remains in good condition.  How terrible, you say?  That same 14-year-old named Marion already has two arrests for car burglaries and a Strategic Subject List (SSL) score of 385.  The SSL score serves to indicate potential future criminal behavior.  As defined by the City of Chicago:*
> 
> Another case caught my eye. The victim, Miguel, a 19-year-old Hispanic male, told police he saw some people who recognized him emerge from a convenience store.  For some unknown reason (he says) they began chasing him in the 3900 block of S. Rockwell. In the alley behind the store, he heard gunshots and felt pain.
> 
> Before you start oozing sympathy for this poor teen, know that CPD says Miguel also moonlights as a Satan Disciples gang member and has built his SSL score to 500. With a SSL score that high, Darwin will probably catch up with him soon enough, assuming he survives this hospital visit.
> 
> --------
> 
> Baltimore...
> 
> 2017 homicide data provide insight into Baltimore's gun wars, police say
> 
> 
> 
> About 86 percent of the victims and 85 percent of the 118 suspects identified by police had prior criminal records. And about 46 percent of victims and 44 percent of suspects had previously been arrested for gun crimes, the data show.
> ----
> The average homicide victim in Baltimore in 2017 had 11 previous arrests on his record. About 73 percent had drug arrests, and nearly 50 percent had been arrested for a violent crime. About 30 percent were on parole or probation at the time they were killed, and more than 6 percent were on parole or probation for a gun crime.
> 
> Twenty percent of the victims were known members of a gang or drug crew, according to the data.
> 
> The average homicide suspect, meanwhile, had 9 previous arrests on his record. About 70 percent had drug arrests, and nearly half had been arrested for a violent crime. Nearly 36 percent were on parole or probation, and 6 percent were on parole or probation for a gun crime, the data show.
> 
> Eighteen percent of the suspects were known members of a gang or drug crew, according to the data.
> 
> Police did not know the motive behind nearly half of the killings, but at least 20 were related to retaliation, according to the data.
> 
> 
> =============
> 
> Chicago..
> 
> 
> Actual report on shootings in chicago...http://urbanlabs.uchicago.edu/attachments/store/2435a5d4658e2ca19f4f225b810ce0dbdb9231cbdb8d702e784087469ee3/UChicagoCrimeLab+Gun+Violence+in+Chicago+2016.pdf
> 
> 
> 1/19/17   Shooters in Chicago criminal record research from U of C
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _Nearly 40 percent of victims had more than 10 prior arrests, while the share with more than 20 prior arrests rose from 14 to 18 percent in 2016._
> 
> _The share of victims with a current or prior gang affiliation as recorded by CPD was about the same in both years (53 and 54 percent)._
> 
> And now the shooters . . .
> 
> _Individuals arrested for a homicide or shooting in Chicago in 2016 and 2015 had similar prior criminal records: around 90 percent had at least one prior arrest, approximately 50 percent had a prior arrest for a violent crime specifically, and almost 40 percent had a prior gun arrest._
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _The average person arrested for a homicide or shooting in both years had nearly 12 prior arrests, with almost 45 percent having had more than 10 prior arrests, and almost 20 percent having had more than 20 prior arrests._
> 
> Why is anyone in Chicago (or elsewhere) talking about gun control? Clearly, Chicago’s revolving door justice system is a failure that allows dangerous killers to roam the city streets.
> ============================
> 
> 
> 12/27/16  Gang shootings in Chicago over christmas..90% gang affiliated
> 
> 
> Gang Killers In Chicago Used Christmas Gatherings To Target Their Victims
> 
> Gang killers, knowing their targets would be home for Christmas, launched a bloody weekend of shootings in Chicago that left 11 dead and another 37 wounded.
> 
> "We now know that the majority of these shootings and homicides were targeted attacks by gangs against potential rivals who were at holiday gatherings. This was followed by several acts of retaliatory gun violence," police spokesman Anthony Guglielmi said in a statement Monday.
> 
> --------------
> 
> *The violence primarily occurred in areas with historical gang conflicts on the South and West Side of Chicago."*
> 
> 
> And this is what we keep telling you anti gunners and you refuse to believe it....
> 
> *"Ninety percent of those fatally wounded had gang affiliations, criminal histories and were pre-identified by the department's strategic subject algorithm as being a potential suspect or victim of gun violence," Guglielmi said.*
> ==
> 
> 
> 
> again, you make no sense
> STL is rated in the top 10 *most dangerous *cities--sometimes 1
> Chi, NYC and LA not even in top ten
> you have no argument there
> explain this to me
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Yes....I showed you why, they let violent gun criminals out on bail and out of jail, over and over again so they won't be perceived as racists...dittos Chicago.....
> 
> Baltimore has the same extreme gun control as Chicago and New York, and a tiny population......and higher gun murder numbers than New York or L.A.....
> 
> New York had the police techniques of Rudy Guilliani and his police Comissioner that they are still using...Chicago is not.....Baltimore is not, D.C. is not...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Germany ,France, and England = lower murder rates with very strict gun control
> NYCity 8.6 MILLION people
> 
> .....final--you need to attack the problem with MULTIPLE ways--and gun control MUST be one of those
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Europe was always less violent than the U.S......and after Britain banned and confiscated guns they have more gun crime not less....and violence across Europe and Britain is growing, not going down.
> 
> You need to explain how gun murder went down 49%, gun crime went down 75%, and violent crime went down 72% as more Americans started to own and actually carry guns...and you can't....
> 
> And Chicago and Baltimore have extreme gun control and have more gun murder than New York..the difference?   New York had Rudy Guilliani and his police commissioner, and they are continuing to use their tactics to combat crime while Baltimore and Chicago let violent, repeat gun offenders out of jail over and over again.  I have shown you the revolving door policy for violent gun offenders in Chicago, it is also happening in Baltimore and St. Louis....
> 
> Criminal control is the issue, not gun control.  Do you really think that law abiding gun owners are doing the gun murder in these cities?   It is the repeat gun offenders who are allowed to go back into these democrat party controlled inner cities that rack up the body counts...not John and Jane Q. Citizen carrying guns for self defense.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Fewer Americans own guns now.
> You must know this...you have so many statistics to hand.
> It's just that gun owners own more guns each.
Click to expand...



Yes...the theory that 2 guys in Idaho are the only guys buying guns now......

And the truth....from NBC no less...

And the fact is that more Americans aren't sharing their ownership of guns with anonymous pollsters...especially gun owners who know that after Sandy Hook left wing, democrat jouranlists tried to post the names of gun owners in their papers...allowing criminals to have shopping lists for theft and murder of gun owners.......

NBC Poll: Does Gun Ownership Increase Or Decrease Safety? Anti-Gun Activists Won't Like The Results.

nearly 6 in 10 Americans believe that getting guns in the hands of law-abiding citizens_ increases _safety.

*"In the poll, 58 percent agree with the statement that gun ownership does more to increase safety by allowing law-abiding citizens to protect themselves,"* NBC News reports. "By contrast, 38 percent say that gun ownership reduces safety by giving too many people access to firearms, increasing the chances for accidental misuse."

------

NBC notes that the overall result is a "reversal" of the findings of a 1999 survey that found that 52 percent of respondents believed gun ownership _reduced_ safety. The more positive perspective on gun ownership is partly reflected in gun ownership trends: "*47 percent of American adults say they have a firearm in the household, which is up from 44 percent in 1999."*


Newspaper sparks outrage for publishing names, addresses of gun permit holders - CNN


An interactive map showing the names and addresses of all handgun permit holders in New York's Westchester and Rockland counties has infuriated many readers since it was posted Saturday on a newspaper's website.
The map, published by The Journal News, allows readers to zoom in on red dots that indicate which residents are licensed to own pistols or revolvers. It had prompted more than 1,700 comments as of Wednesday morning.
-------

Still, hundreds of residents were shocked to see their information posted without their being notified. Some said the map would prompt burglaries because thieves are now aware of where weapons might be found.
"Now everyone knows where the legal guns are kept, a valuable piece of information for criminals," a commenter wrote. "Why don't you do something helpful, like trying to find out where the illegal guns are kept?"


----------



## 2aguy

JoeB131 said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yep....young males, raised without fathers to teach them to be adult men, mixed with 3rd world males running the drug gangs, and the British police hamstrung due to lack of manpower, money, and politically correct rules of engagment.....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> London with a population of 9 million has had 121 murders.
> 
> Chicago with a population of 3 million has had 486 homicides...
> 
> Looks like Gun Control works just fine to me.
Click to expand...



Yes...again....their criminals did not commit murder with their guns before they banned and confiscated guns.....now, on the island, where guns are banned and confiscated, gun crime is going up, but the criminals are still not murdering their victims....

Culture of violence: Gun crime goes up by 89% in a decade | Daily Mail Online

The latest Government figures show that the total number of firearm offences in England and Wales has increased from 5,209 in 1998/99 to 9,865 last year  -  a rise of 89 per cent. 

The number of people injured or killed by guns, excluding air weapons, has increased from 864 in 1998/99 to a provisional figure of 1,760 in 2008/09, an increase of 104 per cent . 

British Politicians Declare War on Knives

Firearms are strictly restricted in the U.K., including a near-total ban on handguns. Nevertheless, "_n the 12 months to October 2017, there were 2,500 offences involving guns: a 16 per cent increase on the previous year and a 44 per cent increase on 2014," the London Assembly's Police and Crime Committee noted in January. Criminals, it seems, are not averse to committing crimes—including the illegal acquisition of tools that help them commit more crimes.
__
Gun crime in London increases by 42% - BBC News

Gun crime offences in London surged by 42% in the last year, according to official statistics.

And as time goes on, the violence increases....

Violent crime on the rise in every corner of the country, figures suggest

But analysis of the figures force by force, showed the full extent of the problem, with only one constabulary, Nottinghamshire, recording a reduction in violent offences.

*The vast majority of police forces actually witnessed double digit rises in violent crime, with Northumbria posting a 95 per cent increase year on year.

Of the other forces, Durham Police recorded a 73 per cent rise; West Yorkshire was up 48 per cent; Avon and Somerset 45 per cent; Dorset 39 per cent and Warwickshire 37 per cent.

Elsewhere Humberside, South Yorkshire, Staffordshire, Essex, Hertfordshire, Kent, Wiltshire and Dyfed Powys all saw violence rise by more than a quarter year on year.*
_


----------



## Tommy Tainant

Skull Pilot said:


> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JoeB131 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> 
> Crimes per 1000
> 
> UK 110
> US 41
> 
> Who has more crime per capita?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "Crimes" is a very nebulous definition.  Our police are so busy with murders they don't have time to break up bar fights.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The UK has twice as many rape and assault victims as the US.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No, it doesn't.
> 
> The US has a very strict definition of things like this. Whereas the UK has a much lower threshold.
> 
> The UK has a HIGHER rape and assault statistics rate. But not necessarily more victims.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Wow another imbecile who doesn't understand ratios
> 
> You do realize that a large country with a large population can have a lower CRIME RATE and still have more victims than a small country with a small population with a high crime rate don't you
> 
> You are TWICE AS LIKELY to be raped or assaulted in the UK than the US
Click to expand...

I think he understands it pefectly well. It comes down to what you clasify as rape or assault. There is no universal definition so comparisons are meaningless. It would be great if every country classified the same offences in a similar way but that isnt going to happen any time soon.


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## Vagabond63

...and yet, from your own source, "...the latest ONS figures showing crimes traditionally measured by the (British Crime) Survey have fallen by a third since 2010 to a record low, with over 370,000 fewer violent crimes a year."

Which is correct?


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## Tommy Tainant

2aguy said:


> JoeB131 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yep....young males, raised without fathers to teach them to be adult men, mixed with 3rd world males running the drug gangs, and the British police hamstrung due to lack of manpower, money, and politically correct rules of engagment.....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> London with a population of 9 million has had 121 murders.
> 
> Chicago with a population of 3 million has had 486 homicides...
> 
> Looks like Gun Control works just fine to me.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Yes...again....their criminals did not commit murder with their guns before they banned and confiscated guns.....now, on the island, where guns are banned and confiscated, gun crime is going up, but the criminals are still not murdering their victims....
> 
> Culture of violence: Gun crime goes up by 89% in a decade | Daily Mail Online
> 
> The latest Government figures show that the total number of firearm offences in England and Wales has increased from 5,209 in 1998/99 to 9,865 last year  -  a rise of 89 per cent.
> 
> The number of people injured or killed by guns, excluding air weapons, has increased from 864 in 1998/99 to a provisional figure of 1,760 in 2008/09, an increase of 104 per cent .
> 
> British Politicians Declare War on Knives
> 
> Firearms are strictly restricted in the U.K., including a near-total ban on handguns. Nevertheless, "_n the 12 months to October 2017, there were 2,500 offences involving guns: a 16 per cent increase on the previous year and a 44 per cent increase on 2014," the London Assembly's Police and Crime Committee noted in January. Criminals, it seems, are not averse to committing crimes—including the illegal acquisition of tools that help them commit more crimes._
> _Gun crime in London increases by 42% - BBC News
> 
> Gun crime offences in London surged by 42% in the last year, according to official statistics.
> 
> And as time goes on, the violence increases....
> 
> Violent crime on the rise in every corner of the country, figures suggest
> 
> But analysis of the figures force by force, showed the full extent of the problem, with only one constabulary, Nottinghamshire, recording a reduction in violent offences.
> 
> *The vast majority of police forces actually witnessed double digit rises in violent crime, with Northumbria posting a 95 per cent increase year on year.*
> 
> *Of the other forces, Durham Police recorded a 73 per cent rise; West Yorkshire was up 48 per cent; Avon and Somerset 45 per cent; Dorset 39 per cent and Warwickshire 37 per cent.*
> 
> *Elsewhere Humberside, South Yorkshire, Staffordshire, Essex, Hertfordshire, Kent, Wiltshire and Dyfed Powys all saw violence rise by more than a quarter year on year.*_
Click to expand...

And yet I am four times more likely to be shot in the US than in the UK. We generally dont own guns and our police,in the main, are not armed Why is it that we are so much safer ?


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## 2aguy

Tommy Tainant said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JoeB131 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yep....young males, raised without fathers to teach them to be adult men, mixed with 3rd world males running the drug gangs, and the British police hamstrung due to lack of manpower, money, and politically correct rules of engagment.....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> London with a population of 9 million has had 121 murders.
> 
> Chicago with a population of 3 million has had 486 homicides...
> 
> Looks like Gun Control works just fine to me.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Yes...again....their criminals did not commit murder with their guns before they banned and confiscated guns.....now, on the island, where guns are banned and confiscated, gun crime is going up, but the criminals are still not murdering their victims....
> 
> Culture of violence: Gun crime goes up by 89% in a decade | Daily Mail Online
> 
> The latest Government figures show that the total number of firearm offences in England and Wales has increased from 5,209 in 1998/99 to 9,865 last year  -  a rise of 89 per cent.
> 
> The number of people injured or killed by guns, excluding air weapons, has increased from 864 in 1998/99 to a provisional figure of 1,760 in 2008/09, an increase of 104 per cent .
> 
> British Politicians Declare War on Knives
> 
> Firearms are strictly restricted in the U.K., including a near-total ban on handguns. Nevertheless, "_n the 12 months to October 2017, there were 2,500 offences involving guns: a 16 per cent increase on the previous year and a 44 per cent increase on 2014," the London Assembly's Police and Crime Committee noted in January. Criminals, it seems, are not averse to committing crimes—including the illegal acquisition of tools that help them commit more crimes._
> _Gun crime in London increases by 42% - BBC News
> 
> Gun crime offences in London surged by 42% in the last year, according to official statistics.
> 
> And as time goes on, the violence increases....
> 
> Violent crime on the rise in every corner of the country, figures suggest
> 
> But analysis of the figures force by force, showed the full extent of the problem, with only one constabulary, Nottinghamshire, recording a reduction in violent offences.
> 
> *The vast majority of police forces actually witnessed double digit rises in violent crime, with Northumbria posting a 95 per cent increase year on year.*
> 
> *Of the other forces, Durham Police recorded a 73 per cent rise; West Yorkshire was up 48 per cent; Avon and Somerset 45 per cent; Dorset 39 per cent and Warwickshire 37 per cent.*
> 
> *Elsewhere Humberside, South Yorkshire, Staffordshire, Essex, Hertfordshire, Kent, Wiltshire and Dyfed Powys all saw violence rise by more than a quarter year on year.*_
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> And yet I am four times more likely to be shot in the US than in the UK. We generally dont own guns and our police,in the main, are not armed Why is it that we are so much safer ?
Click to expand...



No.... you are likely to be shot in tiny areas of our democrat party controlled cities..otherwise you are not likely to be shot, and in fact, because you as a law abiding citizen can carry a gun, you are less likely to be raped, robbed or murdered if you have that gun with you.

You are not safer, your violent crime rate is higher than ours.


----------



## Vagabond63

2aguy said:


> .....and now the social welfare system has created generations of young, single, teenage mothers raising young males without fathers.....



Prove it.


----------



## Vagabond63

2aguy said:


> Tommy Tainant said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JoeB131 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yep....young males, raised without fathers to teach them to be adult men, mixed with 3rd world males running the drug gangs, and the British police hamstrung due to lack of manpower, money, and politically correct rules of engagment.....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> London with a population of 9 million has had 121 murders.
> 
> Chicago with a population of 3 million has had 486 homicides...
> 
> Looks like Gun Control works just fine to me.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Yes...again....their criminals did not commit murder with their guns before they banned and confiscated guns.....now, on the island, where guns are banned and confiscated, gun crime is going up, but the criminals are still not murdering their victims....
> 
> Culture of violence: Gun crime goes up by 89% in a decade | Daily Mail Online
> 
> The latest Government figures show that the total number of firearm offences in England and Wales has increased from 5,209 in 1998/99 to 9,865 last year  -  a rise of 89 per cent.
> 
> The number of people injured or killed by guns, excluding air weapons, has increased from 864 in 1998/99 to a provisional figure of 1,760 in 2008/09, an increase of 104 per cent .
> 
> British Politicians Declare War on Knives
> 
> Firearms are strictly restricted in the U.K., including a near-total ban on handguns. Nevertheless, "_n the 12 months to October 2017, there were 2,500 offences involving guns: a 16 per cent increase on the previous year and a 44 per cent increase on 2014," the London Assembly's Police and Crime Committee noted in January. Criminals, it seems, are not averse to committing crimes—including the illegal acquisition of tools that help them commit more crimes._
> _Gun crime in London increases by 42% - BBC News
> 
> Gun crime offences in London surged by 42% in the last year, according to official statistics.
> 
> And as time goes on, the violence increases....
> 
> Violent crime on the rise in every corner of the country, figures suggest
> 
> But analysis of the figures force by force, showed the full extent of the problem, with only one constabulary, Nottinghamshire, recording a reduction in violent offences.
> 
> *The vast majority of police forces actually witnessed double digit rises in violent crime, with Northumbria posting a 95 per cent increase year on year.*
> 
> *Of the other forces, Durham Police recorded a 73 per cent rise; West Yorkshire was up 48 per cent; Avon and Somerset 45 per cent; Dorset 39 per cent and Warwickshire 37 per cent.*
> 
> *Elsewhere Humberside, South Yorkshire, Staffordshire, Essex, Hertfordshire, Kent, Wiltshire and Dyfed Powys all saw violence rise by more than a quarter year on year.*_
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> And yet I am four times more likely to be shot in the US than in the UK. We generally dont own guns and our police,in the main, are not armed Why is it that we are so much safer ?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> No.... you are likely to be shot in tiny areas of our democrat party controlled cities..otherwise you are not likely to be shot...
Click to expand...


Really? is that why you keep referencing small areas of our cities?


----------



## Tommy Tainant

Vagabond63 said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tommy Tainant said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JoeB131 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yep....young males, raised without fathers to teach them to be adult men, mixed with 3rd world males running the drug gangs, and the British police hamstrung due to lack of manpower, money, and politically correct rules of engagment.....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> London with a population of 9 million has had 121 murders.
> 
> Chicago with a population of 3 million has had 486 homicides...
> 
> Looks like Gun Control works just fine to me.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Yes...again....their criminals did not commit murder with their guns before they banned and confiscated guns.....now, on the island, where guns are banned and confiscated, gun crime is going up, but the criminals are still not murdering their victims....
> 
> Culture of violence: Gun crime goes up by 89% in a decade | Daily Mail Online
> 
> The latest Government figures show that the total number of firearm offences in England and Wales has increased from 5,209 in 1998/99 to 9,865 last year  -  a rise of 89 per cent.
> 
> The number of people injured or killed by guns, excluding air weapons, has increased from 864 in 1998/99 to a provisional figure of 1,760 in 2008/09, an increase of 104 per cent .
> 
> British Politicians Declare War on Knives
> 
> Firearms are strictly restricted in the U.K., including a near-total ban on handguns. Nevertheless, "_n the 12 months to October 2017, there were 2,500 offences involving guns: a 16 per cent increase on the previous year and a 44 per cent increase on 2014," the London Assembly's Police and Crime Committee noted in January. Criminals, it seems, are not averse to committing crimes—including the illegal acquisition of tools that help them commit more crimes._
> _Gun crime in London increases by 42% - BBC News
> 
> Gun crime offences in London surged by 42% in the last year, according to official statistics.
> 
> And as time goes on, the violence increases....
> 
> Violent crime on the rise in every corner of the country, figures suggest
> 
> But analysis of the figures force by force, showed the full extent of the problem, with only one constabulary, Nottinghamshire, recording a reduction in violent offences.
> 
> *The vast majority of police forces actually witnessed double digit rises in violent crime, with Northumbria posting a 95 per cent increase year on year.*
> 
> *Of the other forces, Durham Police recorded a 73 per cent rise; West Yorkshire was up 48 per cent; Avon and Somerset 45 per cent; Dorset 39 per cent and Warwickshire 37 per cent.*
> 
> *Elsewhere Humberside, South Yorkshire, Staffordshire, Essex, Hertfordshire, Kent, Wiltshire and Dyfed Powys all saw violence rise by more than a quarter year on year.*_
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> And yet I am four times more likely to be shot in the US than in the UK. We generally dont own guns and our police,in the main, are not armed Why is it that we are so much safer ?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> No.... you are likely to be shot in tiny areas of our democrat party controlled cities..otherwise you are not likely to be shot...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Really? is that why you keep referencing small areas of our cities?
Click to expand...


----------



## idb

2aguy said:


> idb said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> harmonica said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> harmonica said:
> 
> 
> 
> again, you make no sense
> STL is rated in the top 10 *most dangerous *cities--sometimes 1
> Chi, NYC and LA not even in top ten
> you have no argument there
> explain this to me
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes....I showed you why, they let violent gun criminals out on bail and out of jail, over and over again so they won't be perceived as racists...dittos Chicago.....
> 
> Baltimore has the same extreme gun control as Chicago and New York, and a tiny population......and higher gun murder numbers than New York or L.A.....
> 
> New York had the police techniques of Rudy Guilliani and his police Comissioner that they are still using...Chicago is not.....Baltimore is not, D.C. is not...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Germany ,France, and England = lower murder rates with very strict gun control
> NYCity 8.6 MILLION people
> 
> .....final--you need to attack the problem with MULTIPLE ways--and gun control MUST be one of those
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Europe was always less violent than the U.S......and after Britain banned and confiscated guns they have more gun crime not less....and violence across Europe and Britain is growing, not going down.
> 
> You need to explain how gun murder went down 49%, gun crime went down 75%, and violent crime went down 72% as more Americans started to own and actually carry guns...and you can't....
> 
> And Chicago and Baltimore have extreme gun control and have more gun murder than New York..the difference?   New York had Rudy Guilliani and his police commissioner, and they are continuing to use their tactics to combat crime while Baltimore and Chicago let violent, repeat gun offenders out of jail over and over again.  I have shown you the revolving door policy for violent gun offenders in Chicago, it is also happening in Baltimore and St. Louis....
> 
> Criminal control is the issue, not gun control.  Do you really think that law abiding gun owners are doing the gun murder in these cities?   It is the repeat gun offenders who are allowed to go back into these democrat party controlled inner cities that rack up the body counts...not John and Jane Q. Citizen carrying guns for self defense.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Fewer Americans own guns now.
> You must know this...you have so many statistics to hand.
> It's just that gun owners own more guns each.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Yes...the theory that 2 guys in Idaho are the only guys buying guns now......
> 
> And the truth....from NBC no less...
> 
> And the fact is that more Americans aren't sharing their ownership of guns with anonymous pollsters...especially gun owners who know that after Sandy Hook left wing, democrat jouranlists tried to post the names of gun owners in their papers...allowing criminals to have shopping lists for theft and murder of gun owners.......
> 
> NBC Poll: Does Gun Ownership Increase Or Decrease Safety? Anti-Gun Activists Won't Like The Results.
> 
> nearly 6 in 10 Americans believe that getting guns in the hands of law-abiding citizens_ increases _safety.
> 
> *"In the poll, 58 percent agree with the statement that gun ownership does more to increase safety by allowing law-abiding citizens to protect themselves,"* NBC News reports. "By contrast, 38 percent say that gun ownership reduces safety by giving too many people access to firearms, increasing the chances for accidental misuse."
> 
> ------
> 
> NBC notes that the overall result is a "reversal" of the findings of a 1999 survey that found that 52 percent of respondents believed gun ownership _reduced_ safety. The more positive perspective on gun ownership is partly reflected in gun ownership trends: "*47 percent of American adults say they have a firearm in the household, which is up from 44 percent in 1999."*
> 
> 
> Newspaper sparks outrage for publishing names, addresses of gun permit holders - CNN
> 
> 
> An interactive map showing the names and addresses of all handgun permit holders in New York's Westchester and Rockland counties has infuriated many readers since it was posted Saturday on a newspaper's website.
> The map, published by The Journal News, allows readers to zoom in on red dots that indicate which residents are licensed to own pistols or revolvers. It had prompted more than 1,700 comments as of Wednesday morning.
> -------
> 
> Still, hundreds of residents were shocked to see their information posted without their being notified. Some said the map would prompt burglaries because thieves are now aware of where weapons might be found.
> "Now everyone knows where the legal guns are kept, a valuable piece of information for criminals," a commenter wrote. "Why don't you do something helpful, like trying to find out where the illegal guns are kept?"
Click to expand...

Ah...so that means that you're just guessing about the number of people that own guns.


----------



## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> .....and now the social welfare system has created generations of young, single, teenage mothers raising young males without fathers.....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Prove it.
Click to expand...



Here...

Births in England and Wales - Office for National Statistics


The long-term rise in the percentage of births outside marriage or civil partnership has continued, with 47.7% of all babies born outside marriage or civil partnership in 2015; this compares with 47.5% in 2014. Many of these babies have parents who live together - over the last decade over 60% of all births registered outside marriage or civil partnership each year have been to a cohabiting couple. This is consistent with increases in the number of couples cohabiting rather than entering into marriage or civil partnership (Families and Households provides further information).

-----

Number of children in poverty surges by 100,000 in one year

The number of children in poverty across the UK has surged by 100,000 in a year, new figures show, prompting calls for ministers to urgently review cuts to child welfare.

Government statistics published on Thursday show 4.1 million children are now living in relative poverty after household costs, compared with four million the previous year, accounting for more than 30 per cent of children in the country.


Compared to the overall population, children remained the most likely to be in relative poverty, at almost one in three compared with 21 per cent of working age adults and 16 per cent of pensioners.


----------



## 2aguy

idb said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> idb said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> harmonica said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yes....I showed you why, they let violent gun criminals out on bail and out of jail, over and over again so they won't be perceived as racists...dittos Chicago.....
> 
> Baltimore has the same extreme gun control as Chicago and New York, and a tiny population......and higher gun murder numbers than New York or L.A.....
> 
> New York had the police techniques of Rudy Guilliani and his police Comissioner that they are still using...Chicago is not.....Baltimore is not, D.C. is not...
> 
> 
> 
> Germany ,France, and England = lower murder rates with very strict gun control
> NYCity 8.6 MILLION people
> 
> .....final--you need to attack the problem with MULTIPLE ways--and gun control MUST be one of those
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Europe was always less violent than the U.S......and after Britain banned and confiscated guns they have more gun crime not less....and violence across Europe and Britain is growing, not going down.
> 
> You need to explain how gun murder went down 49%, gun crime went down 75%, and violent crime went down 72% as more Americans started to own and actually carry guns...and you can't....
> 
> And Chicago and Baltimore have extreme gun control and have more gun murder than New York..the difference?   New York had Rudy Guilliani and his police commissioner, and they are continuing to use their tactics to combat crime while Baltimore and Chicago let violent, repeat gun offenders out of jail over and over again.  I have shown you the revolving door policy for violent gun offenders in Chicago, it is also happening in Baltimore and St. Louis....
> 
> Criminal control is the issue, not gun control.  Do you really think that law abiding gun owners are doing the gun murder in these cities?   It is the repeat gun offenders who are allowed to go back into these democrat party controlled inner cities that rack up the body counts...not John and Jane Q. Citizen carrying guns for self defense.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Fewer Americans own guns now.
> You must know this...you have so many statistics to hand.
> It's just that gun owners own more guns each.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Yes...the theory that 2 guys in Idaho are the only guys buying guns now......
> 
> And the truth....from NBC no less...
> 
> And the fact is that more Americans aren't sharing their ownership of guns with anonymous pollsters...especially gun owners who know that after Sandy Hook left wing, democrat jouranlists tried to post the names of gun owners in their papers...allowing criminals to have shopping lists for theft and murder of gun owners.......
> 
> NBC Poll: Does Gun Ownership Increase Or Decrease Safety? Anti-Gun Activists Won't Like The Results.
> 
> nearly 6 in 10 Americans believe that getting guns in the hands of law-abiding citizens_ increases _safety.
> 
> *"In the poll, 58 percent agree with the statement that gun ownership does more to increase safety by allowing law-abiding citizens to protect themselves,"* NBC News reports. "By contrast, 38 percent say that gun ownership reduces safety by giving too many people access to firearms, increasing the chances for accidental misuse."
> 
> ------
> 
> NBC notes that the overall result is a "reversal" of the findings of a 1999 survey that found that 52 percent of respondents believed gun ownership _reduced_ safety. The more positive perspective on gun ownership is partly reflected in gun ownership trends: "*47 percent of American adults say they have a firearm in the household, which is up from 44 percent in 1999."*
> 
> 
> Newspaper sparks outrage for publishing names, addresses of gun permit holders - CNN
> 
> 
> An interactive map showing the names and addresses of all handgun permit holders in New York's Westchester and Rockland counties has infuriated many readers since it was posted Saturday on a newspaper's website.
> The map, published by The Journal News, allows readers to zoom in on red dots that indicate which residents are licensed to own pistols or revolvers. It had prompted more than 1,700 comments as of Wednesday morning.
> -------
> 
> Still, hundreds of residents were shocked to see their information posted without their being notified. Some said the map would prompt burglaries because thieves are now aware of where weapons might be found.
> "Now everyone knows where the legal guns are kept, a valuable piece of information for criminals," a commenter wrote. "Why don't you do something helpful, like trying to find out where the illegal guns are kept?"
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Ah...so that means that you're just guessing about the number of people that own guns.
Click to expand...



I am using the same thing you do, research from left wing news sites..... and it says 47%..... and gun owners are now more likely to keep their gun owning a secret from pollsters...which means that number is likely low, as the biggest growth areas in gun ownership are women and minorities, two groups that in the past have been low in ownership rates.....but that is changing.


----------



## idb

2aguy said:


> idb said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> idb said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> harmonica said:
> 
> 
> 
> Germany ,France, and England = lower murder rates with very strict gun control
> NYCity 8.6 MILLION people
> 
> .....final--you need to attack the problem with MULTIPLE ways--and gun control MUST be one of those
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Europe was always less violent than the U.S......and after Britain banned and confiscated guns they have more gun crime not less....and violence across Europe and Britain is growing, not going down.
> 
> You need to explain how gun murder went down 49%, gun crime went down 75%, and violent crime went down 72% as more Americans started to own and actually carry guns...and you can't....
> 
> And Chicago and Baltimore have extreme gun control and have more gun murder than New York..the difference?   New York had Rudy Guilliani and his police commissioner, and they are continuing to use their tactics to combat crime while Baltimore and Chicago let violent, repeat gun offenders out of jail over and over again.  I have shown you the revolving door policy for violent gun offenders in Chicago, it is also happening in Baltimore and St. Louis....
> 
> Criminal control is the issue, not gun control.  Do you really think that law abiding gun owners are doing the gun murder in these cities?   It is the repeat gun offenders who are allowed to go back into these democrat party controlled inner cities that rack up the body counts...not John and Jane Q. Citizen carrying guns for self defense.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Fewer Americans own guns now.
> You must know this...you have so many statistics to hand.
> It's just that gun owners own more guns each.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Yes...the theory that 2 guys in Idaho are the only guys buying guns now......
> 
> And the truth....from NBC no less...
> 
> And the fact is that more Americans aren't sharing their ownership of guns with anonymous pollsters...especially gun owners who know that after Sandy Hook left wing, democrat jouranlists tried to post the names of gun owners in their papers...allowing criminals to have shopping lists for theft and murder of gun owners.......
> 
> NBC Poll: Does Gun Ownership Increase Or Decrease Safety? Anti-Gun Activists Won't Like The Results.
> 
> nearly 6 in 10 Americans believe that getting guns in the hands of law-abiding citizens_ increases _safety.
> 
> *"In the poll, 58 percent agree with the statement that gun ownership does more to increase safety by allowing law-abiding citizens to protect themselves,"* NBC News reports. "By contrast, 38 percent say that gun ownership reduces safety by giving too many people access to firearms, increasing the chances for accidental misuse."
> 
> ------
> 
> NBC notes that the overall result is a "reversal" of the findings of a 1999 survey that found that 52 percent of respondents believed gun ownership _reduced_ safety. The more positive perspective on gun ownership is partly reflected in gun ownership trends: "*47 percent of American adults say they have a firearm in the household, which is up from 44 percent in 1999."*
> 
> 
> Newspaper sparks outrage for publishing names, addresses of gun permit holders - CNN
> 
> 
> An interactive map showing the names and addresses of all handgun permit holders in New York's Westchester and Rockland counties has infuriated many readers since it was posted Saturday on a newspaper's website.
> The map, published by The Journal News, allows readers to zoom in on red dots that indicate which residents are licensed to own pistols or revolvers. It had prompted more than 1,700 comments as of Wednesday morning.
> -------
> 
> Still, hundreds of residents were shocked to see their information posted without their being notified. Some said the map would prompt burglaries because thieves are now aware of where weapons might be found.
> "Now everyone knows where the legal guns are kept, a valuable piece of information for criminals," a commenter wrote. "Why don't you do something helpful, like trying to find out where the illegal guns are kept?"
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Ah...so that means that you're just guessing about the number of people that own guns.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> I am using the same thing you do, research from left wing news sites..... and it says 47%..... and gun owners are now more likely to keep their gun owning a secret from pollsters...which means that number is likely low, as the biggest growth areas in gun ownership are women and minorities, two groups that in the past have been low in ownership rates.....but that is changing.
Click to expand...

So you're guessing.


----------



## JoeB131

Skull Pilot said:


> The UK has twice as many rape and assault victims per 1000 as the US.



No, they just count them differently. 

Pretty much any unwatned groping is considered rape in the UK.  You have to get home plate in the US to count as rape.


----------



## JoeB131

ever notice whenever there's a horrific act of gun violence like the shooting at the Hospital yesterday, TwoTinyGuy shows up to tell us that the UK is a bad place?


----------



## harmonica

Skull Pilot said:


> harmonica said:
> 
> 
> 
> answer the question:
> why is UK's murder rate 4 times lower?
> or France's/Germany's?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tell me why NH has a murder rate more than 4 times lower than CA  despite CA having the harshest gun laws in the country
Click to expand...

very bad, terrible comparison--WRONG
......anyone that graduated high school science/math knows for a hypothesis to be valid/etc using comparisons, the test subjects have be comparable/etc--ETC
..NH population 1.3 million
..Cali *39 *million with twice the density

that's why
AND the laws are not federal


----------



## idb

JoeB131 said:


> ever notice whenever there's a horrific act of gun violence like the shooting at the Hospital yesterday, TwoTinyGuy shows up to tell us that the UK is a bad place?


Doctors should be armed.
It's the only sensible thing to do.


----------



## 2aguy

JoeB131 said:


> ever notice whenever there's a horrific act of gun violence like the shooting at the Hospital yesterday, TwoTinyGuy shows up to tell us that the UK is a bad place?




No....I say that about the U.K. and their gun violence regardless of any mass shootings in the U.S..... you are lying about that too....is there anything you won't lie about?


----------



## Tommy Tainant

idb said:


> JoeB131 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ever notice whenever there's a horrific act of gun violence like the shooting at the Hospital yesterday, TwoTinyGuy shows up to tell us that the UK is a bad place?
> 
> 
> 
> Doctors should be armed.
> It's the only sensible thing to do.
Click to expand...

I think that the gun nuts want the patients to be armed as well.What a mess.


----------



## frigidweirdo

Skull Pilot said:


> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JoeB131 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> 
> Crimes per 1000
> 
> UK 110
> US 41
> 
> Who has more crime per capita?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "Crimes" is a very nebulous definition.  Our police are so busy with murders they don't have time to break up bar fights.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The UK has twice as many rape and assault victims as the US.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No, it doesn't.
> 
> The US has a very strict definition of things like this. Whereas the UK has a much lower threshold.
> 
> The UK has a HIGHER rape and assault statistics rate. But not necessarily more victims.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Wow another imbecile who doesn't understand ratios
> 
> You do realize that a large country with a large population can have a lower CRIME RATE and still have more victims than a small country with a small population with a high crime rate don't you
> 
> You are TWICE AS LIKELY to be raped or assaulted in the UK than the US
Click to expand...


Ah, insults. Well done, parents must be proud.


----------



## frigidweirdo

2aguy said:


> Tommy Tainant said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JoeB131 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yep....young males, raised without fathers to teach them to be adult men, mixed with 3rd world males running the drug gangs, and the British police hamstrung due to lack of manpower, money, and politically correct rules of engagment.....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> London with a population of 9 million has had 121 murders.
> 
> Chicago with a population of 3 million has had 486 homicides...
> 
> Looks like Gun Control works just fine to me.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Yes...again....their criminals did not commit murder with their guns before they banned and confiscated guns.....now, on the island, where guns are banned and confiscated, gun crime is going up, but the criminals are still not murdering their victims....
> 
> Culture of violence: Gun crime goes up by 89% in a decade | Daily Mail Online
> 
> The latest Government figures show that the total number of firearm offences in England and Wales has increased from 5,209 in 1998/99 to 9,865 last year  -  a rise of 89 per cent.
> 
> The number of people injured or killed by guns, excluding air weapons, has increased from 864 in 1998/99 to a provisional figure of 1,760 in 2008/09, an increase of 104 per cent .
> 
> British Politicians Declare War on Knives
> 
> Firearms are strictly restricted in the U.K., including a near-total ban on handguns. Nevertheless, "_n the 12 months to October 2017, there were 2,500 offences involving guns: a 16 per cent increase on the previous year and a 44 per cent increase on 2014," the London Assembly's Police and Crime Committee noted in January. Criminals, it seems, are not averse to committing crimes—including the illegal acquisition of tools that help them commit more crimes._
> _Gun crime in London increases by 42% - BBC News
> 
> Gun crime offences in London surged by 42% in the last year, according to official statistics.
> 
> And as time goes on, the violence increases....
> 
> Violent crime on the rise in every corner of the country, figures suggest
> 
> But analysis of the figures force by force, showed the full extent of the problem, with only one constabulary, Nottinghamshire, recording a reduction in violent offences.
> 
> *The vast majority of police forces actually witnessed double digit rises in violent crime, with Northumbria posting a 95 per cent increase year on year.*
> 
> *Of the other forces, Durham Police recorded a 73 per cent rise; West Yorkshire was up 48 per cent; Avon and Somerset 45 per cent; Dorset 39 per cent and Warwickshire 37 per cent.*
> 
> *Elsewhere Humberside, South Yorkshire, Staffordshire, Essex, Hertfordshire, Kent, Wiltshire and Dyfed Powys all saw violence rise by more than a quarter year on year.*_
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> And yet I am four times more likely to be shot in the US than in the UK. We generally dont own guns and our police,in the main, are not armed Why is it that we are so much safer ?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> No.... you are likely to be shot in tiny areas of our democrat party controlled cities..otherwise you are not likely to be shot, and in fact, because you as a law abiding citizen can carry a gun, you are less likely to be raped, robbed or murdered if you have that gun with you.
> 
> You are not safer, your violent crime rate is higher than ours.
Click to expand...


Which is misrepresenting the reality of the US. 

"Democrat controlled cities" don't just live in a vacuum. They can't ignore the rest of the country. The Republicans have as much impact on these places as Democrats do.


----------



## JoeB131

2aguy said:


> No....I say that about the U.K. and their gun violence regardless of any mass shootings in the U.S..... you are lying about that too....is there anything you won't lie about?



Don't have to lie... you only seem to show up when there is some horrific shooting...  "Quick, we need a distraction... let's distort what's going on in Britian, where a cop and two civilians weren't shot by a crazy person yesterday!"


----------



## Skull Pilot

JoeB131 said:


> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> 
> The UK has twice as many rape and assault victims per 1000 as the US.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No, they just count them differently.
> 
> Pretty much any unwatned groping is considered rape in the UK.  You have to get home plate in the US to count as rape.
Click to expand...


Funny when I told you they use a different methodology for defining murder you scoffed. but now you use the very argument you dismissed

You are a duplicitous sort


----------



## Skull Pilot

JoeB131 said:


> ever notice whenever there's a horrific act of gun violence like the shooting at the Hospital yesterday, TwoTinyGuy shows up to tell us that the UK is a bad place?


Most of us don't give a flying or any other kind of fuck about the UK and their boot licking monarch worshipers but you control freaks seem to love the UK so much you want to be just like them


----------



## Skull Pilot

harmonica said:


> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> harmonica said:
> 
> 
> 
> answer the question:
> why is UK's murder rate 4 times lower?
> or France's/Germany's?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tell me why NH has a murder rate more than 4 times lower than CA  despite CA having the harshest gun laws in the country
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> very bad, terrible comparison--WRONG
> ......anyone that graduated high school science/math knows for a hypothesis to be valid/etc using comparisons, the test subjects have be comparable/etc--ETC
> ..NH population 1.3 million
> ..Cali *39 *million with twice the density
> 
> that's why
> AND the laws are not federal
Click to expand...


Funny how you talk about education yet you do not understand ratios

The murder RATE is murders per 100,00 it matters not if you compare different states because the RATIO accounts for population size

But if I didn't understand ratios and used your argument then your comparison of murder rates between the UK and the US is invalidated because the UK has a population od 66 million and the US has a population of 350 million

And no the laws are not federal which is why the comparison between states is relevant.

There are 23 states that have murder RATES less than CA and CA has the harshest gun laws in the country so if gun laws actually lowered murder rates then CA would have the lowest rate in the country and NH would have a much higher murder rate.

Our murder rate is driven by relatively few very distinct areas in the country that are ultra violent.  These areas are those that are historically plagued by segregation, poverty, unemployment , underemployment, substandard education, crime, drugs and gangs.

70% of all murders occur in these areas which tend to be inner city neighborhoods that exist in very small areas of just 2% of all the counties in the US.

We do not have a gun problem.  We have a cancer in our inner cities that breeds enough violence and murder so as to skew the rates for the entire country


----------



## Skull Pilot

frigidweirdo said:


> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JoeB131 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> 
> Crimes per 1000
> 
> UK 110
> US 41
> 
> Who has more crime per capita?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "Crimes" is a very nebulous definition.  Our police are so busy with murders they don't have time to break up bar fights.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The UK has twice as many rape and assault victims as the US.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No, it doesn't.
> 
> The US has a very strict definition of things like this. Whereas the UK has a much lower threshold.
> 
> The UK has a HIGHER rape and assault statistics rate. But not necessarily more victims.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Wow another imbecile who doesn't understand ratios
> 
> You do realize that a large country with a large population can have a lower CRIME RATE and still have more victims than a small country with a small population with a high crime rate don't you
> 
> You are TWICE AS LIKELY to be raped or assaulted in the UK than the US
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Ah, insults. Well done, parents must be proud.
Click to expand...


IDGAF what my parents think.

People who don't understand simple ratios shouldn't be in this discussion


----------



## Pilot1

Skull Pilot said:


> Most of us don't give a flying or any other kind of fuck about the UK and their boot licking monarch worshipers but you control freaks seem to love the UK so much you want to be just like them



We left Europe, and rebelled against England for a reason.  We didn't want to be subjects controlled by ROYALTY.  Today liberal/progressives want to make our government all powerful, and like royalty.  They demand government solutions for everything.  That is why they want to remove the Second Amendment, and our Natural Right to defend ourselves.


----------



## Skull Pilot

Pilot1 said:


> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> 
> Most of us don't give a flying or any other kind of fuck about the UK and their boot licking monarch worshipers but you control freaks seem to love the UK so much you want to be just like them
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We left Europe, and rebelled against England for a reason.  We didn't want to be subjects controlled by ROYALTY.  Today liberal/progressives want to make our government all powerful, and like royalty.  They demand government solutions for everything.  That is why they want to remove the Second Amendment, and our Natural Right to defend ourselves.
Click to expand...


It's astounding how many people here want to bend the knee to the fucking government


----------



## 2aguy

idb said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> idb said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> idb said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Europe was always less violent than the U.S......and after Britain banned and confiscated guns they have more gun crime not less....and violence across Europe and Britain is growing, not going down.
> 
> You need to explain how gun murder went down 49%, gun crime went down 75%, and violent crime went down 72% as more Americans started to own and actually carry guns...and you can't....
> 
> And Chicago and Baltimore have extreme gun control and have more gun murder than New York..the difference?   New York had Rudy Guilliani and his police commissioner, and they are continuing to use their tactics to combat crime while Baltimore and Chicago let violent, repeat gun offenders out of jail over and over again.  I have shown you the revolving door policy for violent gun offenders in Chicago, it is also happening in Baltimore and St. Louis....
> 
> Criminal control is the issue, not gun control.  Do you really think that law abiding gun owners are doing the gun murder in these cities?   It is the repeat gun offenders who are allowed to go back into these democrat party controlled inner cities that rack up the body counts...not John and Jane Q. Citizen carrying guns for self defense.
> 
> 
> 
> Fewer Americans own guns now.
> You must know this...you have so many statistics to hand.
> It's just that gun owners own more guns each.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Yes...the theory that 2 guys in Idaho are the only guys buying guns now......
> 
> And the truth....from NBC no less...
> 
> And the fact is that more Americans aren't sharing their ownership of guns with anonymous pollsters...especially gun owners who know that after Sandy Hook left wing, democrat jouranlists tried to post the names of gun owners in their papers...allowing criminals to have shopping lists for theft and murder of gun owners.......
> 
> NBC Poll: Does Gun Ownership Increase Or Decrease Safety? Anti-Gun Activists Won't Like The Results.
> 
> nearly 6 in 10 Americans believe that getting guns in the hands of law-abiding citizens_ increases _safety.
> 
> *"In the poll, 58 percent agree with the statement that gun ownership does more to increase safety by allowing law-abiding citizens to protect themselves,"* NBC News reports. "By contrast, 38 percent say that gun ownership reduces safety by giving too many people access to firearms, increasing the chances for accidental misuse."
> 
> ------
> 
> NBC notes that the overall result is a "reversal" of the findings of a 1999 survey that found that 52 percent of respondents believed gun ownership _reduced_ safety. The more positive perspective on gun ownership is partly reflected in gun ownership trends: "*47 percent of American adults say they have a firearm in the household, which is up from 44 percent in 1999."*
> 
> 
> Newspaper sparks outrage for publishing names, addresses of gun permit holders - CNN
> 
> 
> An interactive map showing the names and addresses of all handgun permit holders in New York's Westchester and Rockland counties has infuriated many readers since it was posted Saturday on a newspaper's website.
> The map, published by The Journal News, allows readers to zoom in on red dots that indicate which residents are licensed to own pistols or revolvers. It had prompted more than 1,700 comments as of Wednesday morning.
> -------
> 
> Still, hundreds of residents were shocked to see their information posted without their being notified. Some said the map would prompt burglaries because thieves are now aware of where weapons might be found.
> "Now everyone knows where the legal guns are kept, a valuable piece of information for criminals," a commenter wrote. "Why don't you do something helpful, like trying to find out where the illegal guns are kept?"
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Ah...so that means that you're just guessing about the number of people that own guns.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> I am using the same thing you do, research from left wing news sites..... and it says 47%..... and gun owners are now more likely to keep their gun owning a secret from pollsters...which means that number is likely low, as the biggest growth areas in gun ownership are women and minorities, two groups that in the past have been low in ownership rates.....but that is changing.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> So you're guessing.
Click to expand...



Here....a more detailed look at how many gun owners are in the U.S....

https://monsterhunternation.com/201...ete-says-congressman-who-wants-to-nuke-omaha/

For those of you who don’t know me, I’m a novelist now, but I retired from the Evil Military Industrial Complex, where I helped maintain those various advanced weapon systems you expect to bomb me with. Before that I was a gun dealer and firearms instructor. So basically I sold guns to the people you expect the people I trained to take them from.
-------

*Nobody really knows how many people in America own guns, or how many guns are here. The estimates range wildly. I’ve noticed a trend over recent years of the news media trying to minimize that number, to make it seem like it’s actually a very low percentage of Americans who own firearms, a fading cultural anomaly if you will, and to explain the one to two million new backgrounds checks done every month for new purchases, a handful of us just own a few hundred guns each.*

Uh huh…. Sure.

While trying to make gun ownership seem like an oddball thing, I’ve seen the media come up with some truly silly estimates about the total number of guns in this country. 

The one that was going around earlier this year was really easy to debunk, because they used the number of NICS checks… Problem is, it didn’t take into account the millions guns sold before that (and they never really wear out), the fact that one NICS check can be used to buy multiples at a time, and that many US states (including the gun nuttiest) use their own state background check system, and don’t report to that federal number. Oh yeah, with advances in cheap machining, making your own guns at home has become increasingly popular.

*When pollsters call to ask us if and how many guns we own—we think about things like a congressmen talking about nuking us—and immediately lie our asses off. The biggest recurring joke in the gun community is that I don’t own any guns, because I lost them all in a freak canoe accident.*

So nobody really knows how many guns there are here, or how many of us own them. But the answer is A LOT.

Recently the WaPo ran an article called _Americans Vastly Overestimate the Number of Gun Owners. _As with most WaPo articles, it was about 90% bullshit, but they are claiming that _only_ 20 to 30 percent of Americans own guns.  That may sound plausible if you live in Manhattan, but out here in flyover country, that’s downright laughable, but anyways, to make the idea of mass gun confiscation as plausible as possible, let’s run with that rosy figure. We’ll even take the lower one of 20%. (snort)

Too bad America has over a third of a billion people, because even the unrealistic figure of 20% of 325 million is still a whopping 65 MILLION people. That’s about the same as the entire population of France. That’s about the same as the population of Great Britain, only with 500 times the firepower. Good thing we didn’t go with that 30%, because now the number is way bigger than the population of Germany (and you know what a pain beating them last time was!).  Or ironically, about three times the population of Iraq.

It’s kind of funny, when it comes to us adopting social or economic programs, the left is always comparing the US to Denmark, which has the population of LA county, and that’s totally not apples and oranges, but declaring war on a percentage of the American population bigger than most nation states? That’s no biggie.


----------



## 2aguy

frigidweirdo said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tommy Tainant said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JoeB131 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yep....young males, raised without fathers to teach them to be adult men, mixed with 3rd world males running the drug gangs, and the British police hamstrung due to lack of manpower, money, and politically correct rules of engagment.....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> London with a population of 9 million has had 121 murders.
> 
> Chicago with a population of 3 million has had 486 homicides...
> 
> Looks like Gun Control works just fine to me.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Yes...again....their criminals did not commit murder with their guns before they banned and confiscated guns.....now, on the island, where guns are banned and confiscated, gun crime is going up, but the criminals are still not murdering their victims....
> 
> Culture of violence: Gun crime goes up by 89% in a decade | Daily Mail Online
> 
> The latest Government figures show that the total number of firearm offences in England and Wales has increased from 5,209 in 1998/99 to 9,865 last year  -  a rise of 89 per cent.
> 
> The number of people injured or killed by guns, excluding air weapons, has increased from 864 in 1998/99 to a provisional figure of 1,760 in 2008/09, an increase of 104 per cent .
> 
> British Politicians Declare War on Knives
> 
> Firearms are strictly restricted in the U.K., including a near-total ban on handguns. Nevertheless, "_n the 12 months to October 2017, there were 2,500 offences involving guns: a 16 per cent increase on the previous year and a 44 per cent increase on 2014," the London Assembly's Police and Crime Committee noted in January. Criminals, it seems, are not averse to committing crimes—including the illegal acquisition of tools that help them commit more crimes._
> _Gun crime in London increases by 42% - BBC News
> 
> Gun crime offences in London surged by 42% in the last year, according to official statistics.
> 
> And as time goes on, the violence increases....
> 
> Violent crime on the rise in every corner of the country, figures suggest
> 
> But analysis of the figures force by force, showed the full extent of the problem, with only one constabulary, Nottinghamshire, recording a reduction in violent offences.
> 
> *The vast majority of police forces actually witnessed double digit rises in violent crime, with Northumbria posting a 95 per cent increase year on year.*
> 
> *Of the other forces, Durham Police recorded a 73 per cent rise; West Yorkshire was up 48 per cent; Avon and Somerset 45 per cent; Dorset 39 per cent and Warwickshire 37 per cent.*
> 
> *Elsewhere Humberside, South Yorkshire, Staffordshire, Essex, Hertfordshire, Kent, Wiltshire and Dyfed Powys all saw violence rise by more than a quarter year on year.*_
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> And yet I am four times more likely to be shot in the US than in the UK. We generally dont own guns and our police,in the main, are not armed Why is it that we are so much safer ?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> No.... you are likely to be shot in tiny areas of our democrat party controlled cities..otherwise you are not likely to be shot, and in fact, because you as a law abiding citizen can carry a gun, you are less likely to be raped, robbed or murdered if you have that gun with you.
> 
> You are not safer, your violent crime rate is higher than ours.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Which is misrepresenting the reality of the US.
> 
> "Democrat controlled cities" don't just live in a vacuum. They can't ignore the rest of the country. The Republicans have as much impact on these places as Democrats do.
Click to expand...



No, they don't...the democrats in these cities elect the judges and appoint the prosecutors, and give left wing advocacy groups access to decision making for police....like the ACLU and black lives matter....black lives matter the group along with obama that has driven the Ferguson Effect in our major cities.


----------



## Pilot1

I love how the Left says that gun ownership has gone down.  They maintain that gun owners are just buying more guns.  The TRUTH is that many of the gun sales over the last ten years have been to women, and first time gun buyers.  The number of households with guns has greatly expanded over the last ten years thanks to the Democrats constant bleating about gun bans, and confiscation. 

Thanks Obama!  Thanks Hillary!  Thanks Chuckie!  Thanks Diane!


----------



## 2aguy

JoeB131 said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> No....I say that about the U.K. and their gun violence regardless of any mass shootings in the U.S..... you are lying about that too....is there anything you won't lie about?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Don't have to lie... you only seem to show up when there is some horrific shooting...  "Quick, we need a distraction... let's distort what's going on in Britian, where a cop and two civilians weren't shot by a crazy person yesterday!"
Click to expand...



Dipshit...I post about Britain all the time.....because they keep having more and more gun crime...ask your buddy anti-gunners who keep bitching about the British gun news I post....you doofus.


----------



## Pilot1

More gun control laws is only about MORE CONTROL of the LAW ABIDING.  Nothing more.


----------



## 2aguy

Pilot1 said:


> I love how the Left says that gun ownership has gone down.  They maintain that gun owners are just buying more guns.  The TRUTH is that many of the gun sales over the last ten years have been to women, and first time gun buyers.  The number of households has greatly expanded over the last ten years thanks to the Democrats constant bleating about gun bans, and confiscation.
> 
> Thanks Obama!  Thanks Hillary!  Thanks Chuckie!  Thanks Diane!




This is from Larry Correia.......he talks about this very thing...in a funny and informative way, he is an expert in the field, having worked in this industry....

Monster Hunter Nation

Nobody really knows how many people in America own guns, or how many guns are here. The estimates range wildly. I’ve noticed a trend over recent years of the news media trying to minimize that number, to make it seem like it’s actually a very low percentage of Americans who own firearms, a fading cultural anomaly if you will, and to explain the one to two million new backgrounds checks done every month for new purchases, a handful of us just own a few hundred guns each.

Uh huh…. Sure.

While trying to make gun ownership seem like an oddball thing, I’ve seen the media come up with some truly silly estimates about the total number of guns in this country. The one that was going around earlier this year was really easy to debunk, because they used the number of NICS checks…* Problem is, it didn’t take into account the millions guns sold before that (and they never really wear out), the fact that one NICS check can be used to buy multiples at a time, and that many US states (including the gun nuttiest) use their own state background check system, and don’t report to that federal number. Oh yeah, with advances in cheap machining, making your own guns at home has become increasingly popular.*

*When pollsters call to ask us if and how many guns we own—we think about things like a congressmen talking about nuking us—and immediately lie our asses off. The biggest recurring joke in the gun community is that I don’t own any guns, because I lost them all in a freak canoe accident.*

So nobody really knows how many guns there are here, or how many of us own them. But the answer is A LOT.

Recently the WaPo ran an article called _Americans Vastly Overestimate the Number of Gun Owners. _As with most WaPo articles, it was about 90% bullshit, but they are claiming that _only_ 20 to 30 percent of Americans own guns.  That may sound plausible if you live in Manhattan, but out here in flyover country, that’s downright laughable, but anyways, to make the idea of mass gun confiscation as plausible as possible, let’s run with that rosy figure. We’ll even take the lower one of 20%. (snort)

Too bad America has over a third of a billion people, because even the unrealistic figure of 20% of 325 million is still a whopping 65 MILLION people. That’s about the same as the entire population of France. That’s about the same as the population of Great Britain, only with 500 times the firepower. Good thing we didn’t go with that 30%, because now the number is way bigger than the population of Germany (and you know what a pain beating them last time was!).  Or ironically, about three times the population of Iraq.

It’s kind of funny, when it comes to us adopting social or economic programs, the left is always comparing the US to Denmark, which has the population of LA county, and that’s totally not apples and oranges, but declaring war on a percentage of the American population bigger than most nation states? That’s no biggie.


----------



## 2aguy

Skull Pilot said:


> Pilot1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> 
> Most of us don't give a flying or any other kind of fuck about the UK and their boot licking monarch worshipers but you control freaks seem to love the UK so much you want to be just like them
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We left Europe, and rebelled against England for a reason.  We didn't want to be subjects controlled by ROYALTY.  Today liberal/progressives want to make our government all powerful, and like royalty.  They demand government solutions for everything.  That is why they want to remove the Second Amendment, and our Natural Right to defend ourselves.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> It's astounding how many people here want to bend the knee to the fucking government
Click to expand...



Not really, Andrew Klavan on his podcast talked about this....... he said Freedom isn't the driving force for human beings.....it is safety and security, even it that means being a slave....he points to the Exodus story in the Bible where the Israelis are freed from slavery, with God using miracles to save them...then they bitch to Moses about how slavery was better than being in the desert.......

If you like conservative philosophical discusssions he is a really good one to listen too on Itunes or watch on Youtube or at the dailywire.......he is a crime fiction writer, whose books have been made into Clint Eastwood movies, and he recently wrote the screenplay for Gosnell....he talks culture, Hollywood, and religion.........great guy....


----------



## Vagabond63

2aguy said:


> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> teenage mothers raising young males without fathers
> 
> Prove it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here...
> 
> Births in England and Wales - Office for National Statistics
> ...over the last decade over 60% of all births registered outside marriage or civil partnership each year have been to a cohabiting couple. This is consistent with increases in the number of couples cohabiting rather than entering into marriage or civil partnership (Families and Households provides further information)...
Click to expand...


You really must read your sources before posting. Point out to me where in your source it mentions "teenage mothers raising young males without fathers" Cohabiting COUPLES denotes the presence of a father or father figure and has nothing whatsoever to do with the welfare state in the UK. The FACT is that since the start of the UK welfare state, single parent families hovered around the 1-2 perentile until the 1960's and that includes families where one parent has died.



2aguy said:


> Number of children in poverty surges by 100,000 in one year
> 
> The number of children in poverty across the UK has surged by 100,000 in a year, new figures show, prompting calls for ministers to urgently review cuts to child welfare.
> 
> Government statistics published on Thursday show 4.1 million children are now living in relative poverty after household costs, compared with four million the previous year, accounting for more than 30 per cent of children in the country.
> 
> Compared to the overall population, children remained the most likely to be in relative poverty, at almost one in three compared with 21 per cent of working age adults and 16 per cent of pensioners.



Correct! Right wing Tory government ideological "austerity" policies cutting child welfare have had a disasterous effect on child poverty in this country.

So back to my previous reply to your 



2aguy said:


> ...teenage mothers raising young males without fathers



Prove it.


----------



## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> teenage mothers raising young males without fathers
> 
> Prove it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here...
> 
> Births in England and Wales - Office for National Statistics
> ...over the last decade over 60% of all births registered outside marriage or civil partnership each year have been to a cohabiting couple. This is consistent with increases in the number of couples cohabiting rather than entering into marriage or civil partnership (Families and Households provides further information)...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You really must read your sources before posting. Point out to me where in your source it mentions "teenage mothers raising young males without fathers" Cohabiting COUPLES denotes the presence of a father or father figure and has nothing whatsoever to do with the welfare state in the UK. The FACT is that since the start of the UK welfare state, single parent families hovered around the 1-2 perentile until the 1960's and that includes families where one parent has died.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> -----
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Number of children in poverty surges by 100,000 in one year
> 
> The number of children in poverty across the UK has surged by 100,000 in a year, new figures show, prompting calls for ministers to urgently review cuts to child welfare.
> 
> Government statistics published on Thursday show 4.1 million children are now living in relative poverty after household costs, compared with four million the previous year, accounting for more than 30 per cent of children in the country.
> 
> Compared to the overall population, children remained the most likely to be in relative poverty, at almost one in three compared with 21 per cent of working age adults and 16 per cent of pensioners.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Correct! Right wing Tory government ideological "austerity" policies cutting child welfare have had a disasterous effect on child poverty in this country.
> 
> So back to my previous reply to your
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...teenage mothers raising young males without fathers
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Prove it.
Click to expand...



You guys can blame the Torries all you want....single teenage women having children drives the crime and violence rates...but keep denying it as gun crime and violent crime increase in Britain....


----------



## Pilot1

Yep, lots of "Tragic Boating Accidents" have happened.


----------



## Vagabond63

2aguy said:


> ...So nobody really knows how many guns there are here, or how many of us own them. But the answer is A LOT..



Interesting. So if that's the case how can you possibly assert that:

"17.25 million Americans carry guns. Gun murder in U.S. down 49% since 1990s. 
17.25 million Americans carry guns. Gun crime in U.S. down 75% since 1990s. 
17 .25 million Americans carry guns. Violent crime down 72% since the 1990s."

Clearly you are making things up to pursue your NRA schill agenda; sorry you are not convincing anyone.


----------



## Vagabond63

2aguy said:


> You guys can blame the Torries all you want....single teenage women having children drives the crime and violence rates...but keep denying it as gun crime and violent crime increase in Britain...



Once again, prove it.


----------



## idb

Tommy Tainant said:


> idb said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JoeB131 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ever notice whenever there's a horrific act of gun violence like the shooting at the Hospital yesterday, TwoTinyGuy shows up to tell us that the UK is a bad place?
> 
> 
> 
> Doctors should be armed.
> It's the only sensible thing to do.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I think that the gun nuts want the patients to be armed as well.What a mess.
Click to expand...

They have to start taking some personal responsibility for their own safety and for those in the next bed.


----------



## idb

2aguy said:


> idb said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> idb said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> idb said:
> 
> 
> 
> Fewer Americans own guns now.
> You must know this...you have so many statistics to hand.
> It's just that gun owners own more guns each.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes...the theory that 2 guys in Idaho are the only guys buying guns now......
> 
> And the truth....from NBC no less...
> 
> And the fact is that more Americans aren't sharing their ownership of guns with anonymous pollsters...especially gun owners who know that after Sandy Hook left wing, democrat jouranlists tried to post the names of gun owners in their papers...allowing criminals to have shopping lists for theft and murder of gun owners.......
> 
> NBC Poll: Does Gun Ownership Increase Or Decrease Safety? Anti-Gun Activists Won't Like The Results.
> 
> nearly 6 in 10 Americans believe that getting guns in the hands of law-abiding citizens_ increases _safety.
> 
> *"In the poll, 58 percent agree with the statement that gun ownership does more to increase safety by allowing law-abiding citizens to protect themselves,"* NBC News reports. "By contrast, 38 percent say that gun ownership reduces safety by giving too many people access to firearms, increasing the chances for accidental misuse."
> 
> ------
> 
> NBC notes that the overall result is a "reversal" of the findings of a 1999 survey that found that 52 percent of respondents believed gun ownership _reduced_ safety. The more positive perspective on gun ownership is partly reflected in gun ownership trends: "*47 percent of American adults say they have a firearm in the household, which is up from 44 percent in 1999."*
> 
> 
> Newspaper sparks outrage for publishing names, addresses of gun permit holders - CNN
> 
> 
> An interactive map showing the names and addresses of all handgun permit holders in New York's Westchester and Rockland counties has infuriated many readers since it was posted Saturday on a newspaper's website.
> The map, published by The Journal News, allows readers to zoom in on red dots that indicate which residents are licensed to own pistols or revolvers. It had prompted more than 1,700 comments as of Wednesday morning.
> -------
> 
> Still, hundreds of residents were shocked to see their information posted without their being notified. Some said the map would prompt burglaries because thieves are now aware of where weapons might be found.
> "Now everyone knows where the legal guns are kept, a valuable piece of information for criminals," a commenter wrote. "Why don't you do something helpful, like trying to find out where the illegal guns are kept?"
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Ah...so that means that you're just guessing about the number of people that own guns.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> I am using the same thing you do, research from left wing news sites..... and it says 47%..... and gun owners are now more likely to keep their gun owning a secret from pollsters...which means that number is likely low, as the biggest growth areas in gun ownership are women and minorities, two groups that in the past have been low in ownership rates.....but that is changing.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> So you're guessing.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Here....a more detailed look at how many gun owners are in the U.S....
> 
> The 2nd Amendment is Obsolete, Says Congressman Who Wants To Nuke Omaha
> 
> For those of you who don’t know me, I’m a novelist now, but I retired from the Evil Military Industrial Complex, where I helped maintain those various advanced weapon systems you expect to bomb me with. Before that I was a gun dealer and firearms instructor. So basically I sold guns to the people you expect the people I trained to take them from.
> -------
> 
> *Nobody really knows how many people in America own guns, or how many guns are here. The estimates range wildly. I’ve noticed a trend over recent years of the news media trying to minimize that number, to make it seem like it’s actually a very low percentage of Americans who own firearms, a fading cultural anomaly if you will, and to explain the one to two million new backgrounds checks done every month for new purchases, a handful of us just own a few hundred guns each.*
> 
> Uh huh…. Sure.
> 
> While trying to make gun ownership seem like an oddball thing, I’ve seen the media come up with some truly silly estimates about the total number of guns in this country.
> 
> The one that was going around earlier this year was really easy to debunk, because they used the number of NICS checks… Problem is, it didn’t take into account the millions guns sold before that (and they never really wear out), the fact that one NICS check can be used to buy multiples at a time, and that many US states (including the gun nuttiest) use their own state background check system, and don’t report to that federal number. Oh yeah, with advances in cheap machining, making your own guns at home has become increasingly popular.
> 
> *When pollsters call to ask us if and how many guns we own—we think about things like a congressmen talking about nuking us—and immediately lie our asses off. The biggest recurring joke in the gun community is that I don’t own any guns, because I lost them all in a freak canoe accident.*
> 
> So nobody really knows how many guns there are here, or how many of us own them. But the answer is A LOT.
> 
> Recently the WaPo ran an article called _Americans Vastly Overestimate the Number of Gun Owners. _As with most WaPo articles, it was about 90% bullshit, but they are claiming that _only_ 20 to 30 percent of Americans own guns.  That may sound plausible if you live in Manhattan, but out here in flyover country, that’s downright laughable, but anyways, to make the idea of mass gun confiscation as plausible as possible, let’s run with that rosy figure. We’ll even take the lower one of 20%. (snort)
> 
> Too bad America has over a third of a billion people, because even the unrealistic figure of 20% of 325 million is still a whopping 65 MILLION people. That’s about the same as the entire population of France. That’s about the same as the population of Great Britain, only with 500 times the firepower. Good thing we didn’t go with that 30%, because now the number is way bigger than the population of Germany (and you know what a pain beating them last time was!).  Or ironically, about three times the population of Iraq.
> 
> It’s kind of funny, when it comes to us adopting social or economic programs, the left is always comparing the US to Denmark, which has the population of LA county, and that’s totally not apples and oranges, but declaring war on a percentage of the American population bigger than most nation states? That’s no biggie.
Click to expand...

Like I said...you're guessing.
"A lot" isn't a real number.


----------



## BasicHumanUnit

Here's another FACT......
Most gun crime is committed by NON RIGHT WING people.
Only a complete fool would even attempt to deny that.

The VAST majority of gun crimes are committed by you Leftist.
In a twisted way, it's no wonder you blame the guns, you're too egotistical to call it like it is and blame yourselves....even when the evidence is staring you right in the face.

Again...GUNS are not the problem....defective, unbalanced leftist mentality and the enormous rise in social problems associated with it is THE PROBLEM.

Don't even TRY it.....
Number of Deaths Due to Firearms per 100,000 Population by Race/Ethnicity


----------



## Vagabond63

BasicHumanUnit said:


> Here's another FACT......



Prove it.


----------



## BasicHumanUnit

Vagabond63 said:


> Prove it.



*DISPROVE IT*


----------



## BasicHumanUnit

A hypothetical Island, with a freely available stockpile of 5,000 guns of various types and 100,000 rounds of ammunition for those guns.   NO PEOPLE yet.

As odd is it is to the Left, ZERO gun deaths will occur.  (Proves guns cannot kill without people present)

Now Add a population of 1000 Conservative right wing Bible thumpers.....Statistics prove shootings are unlikely.  Not impossible, but *statistically* unlikely.

Now remove all the Right Wing conservatives and replace them with all Left wing, Democrat, progressives and the criminals they harbor and provide sanctuary to.

What are the odds that anyone would survive?  *Statistically*, it would quickly become a war zone.


----------



## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> BasicHumanUnit said:
> 
> 
> 
> Here's another FACT......
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Prove it.
Click to expand...



Analysis | The surprising way gun violence is dividing America

In the most Democratic regions, gun violence is more often committed against another, crimes that probably generate more news coverage and fear. In the most Republican areas, it is more often committed against oneself, suicides that may not attract as much attention.

------

*As the below charts show, Democratic areas (measured by the party that controls the congressional district) are far more likely to experience almost all forms of malicious gun violence than Republican areas.*


----------



## Pilot1

The Democrats, and the Media are using "gun violence" (actually people violence, but I digress) as another way to divide the nation, the same way they use IDENTITY POLITICS.


----------



## Tommy Tainant

idb said:


> Tommy Tainant said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> idb said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JoeB131 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ever notice whenever there's a horrific act of gun violence like the shooting at the Hospital yesterday, TwoTinyGuy shows up to tell us that the UK is a bad place?
> 
> 
> 
> Doctors should be armed.
> It's the only sensible thing to do.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I think that the gun nuts want the patients to be armed as well.What a mess.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> They have to start taking some personal responsibility for their own safety and for those in the next bed.
Click to expand...

If you are laying out a lot of money for healthcareyou should expect the hospital to send you home without gun wounds. Thats just good service.


----------



## harmonica

Skull Pilot said:


> harmonica said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> harmonica said:
> 
> 
> 
> answer the question:
> why is UK's murder rate 4 times lower?
> or France's/Germany's?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tell me why NH has a murder rate more than 4 times lower than CA  despite CA having the harshest gun laws in the country
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> very bad, terrible comparison--WRONG
> ......anyone that graduated high school science/math knows for a hypothesis to be valid/etc using comparisons, the test subjects have be comparable/etc--ETC
> ..NH population 1.3 million
> ..Cali *39 *million with twice the density
> 
> that's why
> AND the laws are not federal
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Funny how you talk about education yet you do not understand ratios
> 
> The murder RATE is murders per 100,00 it matters not if you compare different states because the RATIO accounts for population size
> 
> But if I didn't understand ratios and used your argument then your comparison of murder rates between the UK and the US is invalidated because the UK has a population od 66 million and the US has a population of 350 million
> 
> And no the laws are not federal which is why the comparison between states is relevant.
> 
> There are 23 states that have murder RATES less than CA and CA has the harshest gun laws in the country so if gun laws actually lowered murder rates then CA would have the lowest rate in the country and NH would have a much higher murder rate.
> 
> Our murder rate is driven by relatively few very distinct areas in the country that are ultra violent.  These areas are those that are historically plagued by segregation, poverty, unemployment , underemployment, substandard education, crime, drugs and gangs.
> 
> 70% of all murders occur in these areas which tend to be inner city neighborhoods that exist in very small areas of just 2% of all the counties in the US.
> 
> We do not have a gun problem.  We have a cancer in our inner cities that breeds enough violence and murder so as to skew the rates for the entire country
Click to expand...

wrong--
they are not comparable
density is twice as much
population much more
LA, NYCity and Chi population density MUCH more than STL
you expect more problems with higher density--but we see STL has more problems 



> Population density and degree of urbanization.


Variables Affecting Crime


----------



## harmonica

Skull Pilot said:


> harmonica said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> harmonica said:
> 
> 
> 
> answer the question:
> why is UK's murder rate 4 times lower?
> or France's/Germany's?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tell me why NH has a murder rate more than 4 times lower than CA  despite CA having the harshest gun laws in the country
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> very bad, terrible comparison--WRONG
> ......anyone that graduated high school science/math knows for a hypothesis to be valid/etc using comparisons, the test subjects have be comparable/etc--ETC
> ..NH population 1.3 million
> ..Cali *39 *million with twice the density
> 
> that's why
> AND the laws are not federal
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Funny how you talk about education yet you do not understand ratios
> 
> The murder RATE is murders per 100,00 it matters not if you compare different states because the RATIO accounts for population size
> 
> But if I didn't understand ratios and used your argument then your comparison of murder rates between the UK and the US is invalidated because the UK has a population od 66 million and the US has a population of 350 million
> 
> And no the laws are not federal which is why the comparison between states is relevant.
> 
> There are 23 states that have murder RATES less than CA and CA has the harshest gun laws in the country so if gun laws actually lowered murder rates then CA would have the lowest rate in the country and NH would have a much higher murder rate.
> 
> Our murder rate is driven by relatively few very distinct areas in the country that are ultra violent.  These areas are those that are historically plagued by segregation, poverty, unemployment , underemployment, substandard education, crime, drugs and gangs.
> 
> 70% of all murders occur in these areas which tend to be inner city neighborhoods that exist in very small areas of just 2% of all the counties in the US.
> 
> We do not have a gun problem.  We have a cancer in our inner cities that breeds enough violence and murder so as to skew the rates for the entire country
Click to expand...

also, France, Great Britain, and Germany--lower murder rates
the numbers are too large and right there to argue


----------



## candycorn

frigidweirdo said:


> idb said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> idb said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Gun crime is going down in the U.S. it is going up in the U.K........
> 
> 
> 
> You do understand statistics I assume?
> A small increase in numbers from a small base will be a large increase in percentage.
> E.g. if you have five murders in one year...then six murders the following year...what is the percentage increase?
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Gun crime is going down in the U.S. it is going up in the U.K........
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I count 8 firearm deaths in the UK in the year to March 2017.
> 
> Homicide in England and Wales - Office for National Statistics
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yes...you focus on gun murder which has always, always been low in Britain even when they had access to guns.....it was always lower than here...you focus on that because you have to hide the fact that criminals in Britain are getting more guns...illegal guns, and they are using them for crime....currently, they are not using them for murder....but they are getting more guns and using them in increasing levels for crime against unarmed civilians....with a police force hamstrung by policies straight from our democrat party play book....cut manpower, cut the money, cripple them with P.C. policies....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> "even when they had access to guns", like they don't have access to guns.
> 
> We've done this before so many fucking times. THEY HAVE GUNS.
> 
> What's DIFFERENT is that access is LIMITED and RESTRICTED whereas in the US it isn't.
> 
> The issue here is that there are more guns than before, the Yardies brought in guns for the first real time. Gun murders WENT UP.
> 
> Homicide - Office for National Statistics
> 
> You can look on this interactive map and see. April 2002 to March 2003 was the highest murder rate. It got up to 1.7 murders per 100,000 people. Massively lower than the US's rate. This is for England and Wales rather than the UK.
> 
> By April 2014-March 2015 this has dropped to 0.9, nearly half.
> 
> That's with guns being in the country. So why did the murder rate go down?
> 
> Better policing, the left wing Labour Party increased spending on the police force.
> 
> You know what's changed since then? The right wing Tory Party reducing spending on policing.
> 
> The murder rate is going up. But by 2017 it was 10.7.
> 
> Homicide in England and Wales - Office for National Statistics
> 
> So, the murder rate fluctuates, and it often fluctuates based on police spending and the like. But the UK is more likely to deal with the problems from every aspect, social, economic etc, whereas in the US politicians ignore all the problems, and people like you do too.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The regular point that 2aguy makes is that gun laws don't prevent gun crimes 100% so should be scrapped.
> The answer just writes itself.
> Why have drug laws, abortion laws, immigration laws...?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The point that 2Aguy makes is that he's an absolute fraud and "fake news" reporter.
> 
> No, gun laws don't stop things 100%, who said they do?
> 
> The UK's murder rate is 4 time or more lower than the US's. A rise in crime is inevitable as is a drop in crime at other times. That's what happens in life.
> 
> The fraud is trying to claim that a rise is worse than a drop in crime and murders, REGARDLESS of what the rate is in the first place. This is just ridiculous.
Click to expand...



to repeat your point…

No, gun laws don't stop things 100%, who said they do?

The UK's murder rate is 4 time or more lower than the US's. A rise in crime is inevitable as is a drop in crime at other times. That's what happens in life.


----------



## 2aguy

candycorn said:


> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> idb said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> idb said:
> 
> 
> 
> You do understand statistics I assume?
> A small increase in numbers from a small base will be a large increase in percentage.
> E.g. if you have five murders in one year...then six murders the following year...what is the percentage increase?
> I count 8 firearm deaths in the UK in the year to March 2017.
> 
> Homicide in England and Wales - Office for National Statistics
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes...you focus on gun murder which has always, always been low in Britain even when they had access to guns.....it was always lower than here...you focus on that because you have to hide the fact that criminals in Britain are getting more guns...illegal guns, and they are using them for crime....currently, they are not using them for murder....but they are getting more guns and using them in increasing levels for crime against unarmed civilians....with a police force hamstrung by policies straight from our democrat party play book....cut manpower, cut the money, cripple them with P.C. policies....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> "even when they had access to guns", like they don't have access to guns.
> 
> We've done this before so many fucking times. THEY HAVE GUNS.
> 
> What's DIFFERENT is that access is LIMITED and RESTRICTED whereas in the US it isn't.
> 
> The issue here is that there are more guns than before, the Yardies brought in guns for the first real time. Gun murders WENT UP.
> 
> Homicide - Office for National Statistics
> 
> You can look on this interactive map and see. April 2002 to March 2003 was the highest murder rate. It got up to 1.7 murders per 100,000 people. Massively lower than the US's rate. This is for England and Wales rather than the UK.
> 
> By April 2014-March 2015 this has dropped to 0.9, nearly half.
> 
> That's with guns being in the country. So why did the murder rate go down?
> 
> Better policing, the left wing Labour Party increased spending on the police force.
> 
> You know what's changed since then? The right wing Tory Party reducing spending on policing.
> 
> The murder rate is going up. But by 2017 it was 10.7.
> 
> Homicide in England and Wales - Office for National Statistics
> 
> So, the murder rate fluctuates, and it often fluctuates based on police spending and the like. But the UK is more likely to deal with the problems from every aspect, social, economic etc, whereas in the US politicians ignore all the problems, and people like you do too.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The regular point that 2aguy makes is that gun laws don't prevent gun crimes 100% so should be scrapped.
> The answer just writes itself.
> Why have drug laws, abortion laws, immigration laws...?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The point that 2Aguy makes is that he's an absolute fraud and "fake news" reporter.
> 
> No, gun laws don't stop things 100%, who said they do?
> 
> The UK's murder rate is 4 time or more lower than the US's. A rise in crime is inevitable as is a drop in crime at other times. That's what happens in life.
> 
> The fraud is trying to claim that a rise is worse than a drop in crime and murders, REGARDLESS of what the rate is in the first place. This is just ridiculous.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> to repeat your point…
> 
> No, gun laws don't stop things 100%, who said they do?
> 
> The UK's murder rate is 4 time or more lower than the US's. A rise in crime is inevitable as is a drop in crime at other times. That's what happens in life.
Click to expand...



No...we are not talking about a rise and a drop, we are not talking "don't stop 100%"  ...we are talking a steady increase in gun crime in Britain, after they took guns away from law abiding, good people....more violence as well.....  meanwhile, we had a massive decrease in gun and violent crime as more people own and carry guns over the last 25 years.......


----------



## 2aguy

harmonica said:


> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> harmonica said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> harmonica said:
> 
> 
> 
> answer the question:
> why is UK's murder rate 4 times lower?
> or France's/Germany's?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tell me why NH has a murder rate more than 4 times lower than CA  despite CA having the harshest gun laws in the country
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> very bad, terrible comparison--WRONG
> ......anyone that graduated high school science/math knows for a hypothesis to be valid/etc using comparisons, the test subjects have be comparable/etc--ETC
> ..NH population 1.3 million
> ..Cali *39 *million with twice the density
> 
> that's why
> AND the laws are not federal
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Funny how you talk about education yet you do not understand ratios
> 
> The murder RATE is murders per 100,00 it matters not if you compare different states because the RATIO accounts for population size
> 
> But if I didn't understand ratios and used your argument then your comparison of murder rates between the UK and the US is invalidated because the UK has a population od 66 million and the US has a population of 350 million
> 
> And no the laws are not federal which is why the comparison between states is relevant.
> 
> There are 23 states that have murder RATES less than CA and CA has the harshest gun laws in the country so if gun laws actually lowered murder rates then CA would have the lowest rate in the country and NH would have a much higher murder rate.
> 
> Our murder rate is driven by relatively few very distinct areas in the country that are ultra violent.  These areas are those that are historically plagued by segregation, poverty, unemployment , underemployment, substandard education, crime, drugs and gangs.
> 
> 70% of all murders occur in these areas which tend to be inner city neighborhoods that exist in very small areas of just 2% of all the counties in the US.
> 
> We do not have a gun problem.  We have a cancer in our inner cities that breeds enough violence and murder so as to skew the rates for the entire country
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> also, France, Great Britain, and Germany--lower murder rates
> the numbers are too large and right there to argue
Click to expand...



Yes.... because their criminals don't murder their victims...a different mind set....guns are easily acquired in France...in fact, fully automatic military rifles are a status symbol for French criminals, they just don't commit murder with them......

You guys have to hide behind the murder rate because the increasing gun crime shows taking guns away from law abiding people does not decrease the gun crime rate...

France....

http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2017/10/02/gun-control-in-europe-is-almost-total-it-hasnt-stopped-mass-shooting-attacks-like-las-vegas.html

You heard that right: Countries such as France may have made all semi-automatic guns illegal, but that hasn’t stopped killers from getting fully automatic machine guns to use in mass shooting attacks. All four of the 2015 mass public shooting in France involved machine guns, including the 130 people killed in November of that year in multiple attacks including one at a concert venue.
=====
Hundreds of guns, grenades, ammo seized from French sports shop owner

Hundreds of assault rifles, shotguns, and pistols, along with hand grenades and 100 kilos of ammunition, have been confiscated from a sports shop owner in the northern French port town of Boulogne-sur-Mer.

In total, 488 guns, 13 grenades, 1,309 weapons parts, and more than 100 kilos of cartridges and ammunition were seized, customs officials said in a statement.


France’s real gun problem

Despite these strict laws, France seems to be awash with guns. The guns used in high-profile terror attacks are really just the tip of the iceberg. In 2012, French authorities estimated that there were around 30,000 guns illegally in the country, many likely used by gangs for criminal activities. Of those guns, around 4,000 were likely to be "war weapons," Le Figaro reported, referring to items such as the Kalashnikov AK-variant rifles and Uzis. Statistics from the National Observatory for Delinquency, a government body created in 2003, suggest that the number of guns in France has grown by double digits every year.

The attackers who hit Paris on Friday were clearly armed to the teeth. During raids conducted by French authorities over the weekend, more weapons have been found — including a rocket launcher, according to some unconfirmed reports.

Marseilles gangland violence claims fourth victim in 2 days - France - RFI

A man was shot dead Monday in Marseille, bringing to 11 the number of people killed in gun violence since the start of the year in the crime-ridden southern French port, rescue workers said.
A man in his 50s was killed by gunshots to the chest after several shots were fired in the car park of a social housing building.
He was killed two days after a triple homicide.
On Saturday, three men were killed while watching a football match at a cafe with friends, with investigators suspecting a settling of scores in a drug-related affair.
Nineteen people were killed in gun violence in the city in the whole of last year.
Shootings are a regular occurrence in Marseille.


*Interior Minister Bernard Cazeneuve has said 6,000 weapons a year were being seized from criminal groups in Marseille, of which 1,200 were combat rifles and other weapons of war.*
*-------------------------*

Paris attacks highlight France's gun control problems

The arsenal of weapons deployed by the eight attackers who terrorised Paris on Friday night underlined France’s gun control problems and raised the spectre of further attacks.

The country has extremely strict weapons laws, but Europe’s open borders and growing trade in illegal weapons means assault rifles are relatively easy to come by on the black market.

Belgium....

Running guns to the heart of Europe: 'Need a Kalashnikov in Belgium? No problem'

But for all the new resolve of the European Union to tighten borders and close loopholes in laws that already effectively ban private ownership of rapid-fire assault weapons, Nemac, Milan and a jaded Serbian policeman doubt it can end the trade.

The Serbian police officer, who is involved in counter-trafficking operations, said investigators uncovered maybe a third of shipments at best. *The problem was the sheer volume of weapons*, he explained, recounting a tale of a man who told customs officers at Serbia's border with the EU that he was a musician and had nothing to declare but his old accordion.--
-----

Indeed, there is some irony that Brussels, self-styled "capital" of the European Union and also home to the NATO military alliance, has become a marketplace for such hardware.

"If you have 500 to 1,000 euros you can get a military weapon within half an hour," said Bilal Benyaich, an expert on Islamist radicals at the city's Itinera Institute think-tank.

Somewhere in Europe?

http://time.com/3687334/arms-smuggling-europe-balkans/



But although the police quickly traced the weapons source in the Paris attacks, stopping criminals and other jihadist cells in Europe from acquiring assault weapons for further attacks might not be so easy, according to police officials.



French police believe rifles are on sale in French cities for between €1,000 and €1,500. Earlier this month, Philippe Capon, head of the French police union UNSA, told Bloomberg News, “The French black market for weapons has been inundated with eastern European war artillery and arms.” A French police source told TIME that the weapons from the _Charlie Hebdo_attack came from the Balkans.

That is not the only source of weaponry. Donald says he fears that the continent might be facing a fresh influx of weapons from North Africa in the wake of the Arab Spring revolts. In August, 2011, Libyan rebels looted large quantities of mortars, tank shells and other munitions when Moammar Gaddafi’s regime collapsed. Although most of those weapons are believed to have filtered across North and West Africa, some could also have made their way to Europe.

The arms traffickers have flourished in the absence of well-financed antiweapons units in Europe, where law enforcement has for years tended to plow money into stopping drug-dealing and other crimes. “We don’t fully understand the scale of the problem because we have not had specialized units,” says Donald, referring to law-enforcement agencies in different E.U. countries. “It is a question of priorities. Any police officer will tell you it [resources] is a constant struggle.”

The trade in illegal weapons can earn enormous profits for organized criminal gangs — enough to make the risk of capture worthwhile. Donald says recent investigations have found arms traffickers investing about €30,000 in a shipment of Balkan-era weapons, refurbishing them in their garages, then selling them for them for about 10 times the price. “That’s a huge mark-up,” he says.

*As Europe struggles to crack down on illegal weapons, some police recruits face a new training exercise: Go buy a Kalashnikov rifle. Donald says that in “a city in Europe,” which he would not name, “very young officers with no training or experience” were recently told to go find an assault weapon on the streets from an illegal arms dealer. “One came back two hours later with an AK-47,” Donald says. “He bought it for €1,000.”*


----------



## 2aguy

harmonica said:


> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> harmonica said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> harmonica said:
> 
> 
> 
> answer the question:
> why is UK's murder rate 4 times lower?
> or France's/Germany's?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tell me why NH has a murder rate more than 4 times lower than CA  despite CA having the harshest gun laws in the country
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> very bad, terrible comparison--WRONG
> ......anyone that graduated high school science/math knows for a hypothesis to be valid/etc using comparisons, the test subjects have be comparable/etc--ETC
> ..NH population 1.3 million
> ..Cali *39 *million with twice the density
> 
> that's why
> AND the laws are not federal
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Funny how you talk about education yet you do not understand ratios
> 
> The murder RATE is murders per 100,00 it matters not if you compare different states because the RATIO accounts for population size
> 
> But if I didn't understand ratios and used your argument then your comparison of murder rates between the UK and the US is invalidated because the UK has a population od 66 million and the US has a population of 350 million
> 
> And no the laws are not federal which is why the comparison between states is relevant.
> 
> There are 23 states that have murder RATES less than CA and CA has the harshest gun laws in the country so if gun laws actually lowered murder rates then CA would have the lowest rate in the country and NH would have a much higher murder rate.
> 
> Our murder rate is driven by relatively few very distinct areas in the country that are ultra violent.  These areas are those that are historically plagued by segregation, poverty, unemployment , underemployment, substandard education, crime, drugs and gangs.
> 
> 70% of all murders occur in these areas which tend to be inner city neighborhoods that exist in very small areas of just 2% of all the counties in the US.
> 
> We do not have a gun problem.  We have a cancer in our inner cities that breeds enough violence and murder so as to skew the rates for the entire country
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> wrong--
> they are not comparable
> density is twice as much
> population much more
> LA, NYCity and Chi population density MUCH more than STL
> you expect more problems with higher density--but we see STL has more problems
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Population density and degree of urbanization.
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Variables Affecting Crime
Click to expand...



You have been shown that the problem in St. Louis is not normal, law abiding gun owners.  The problem in St. Louis is that the democrats have contolled that city for 49 years and keep letting violent gun criminals out of jail, the ones actually shooting people but with illegal guns....

New York had Rudy Guilliiani and his police commissioner actually arresting criminals and their policies are still in place....Chicago has had democrats in control for close to 100 years, and they too have a revolving door for gun criminals...since the criminals often work hand in hand with the city government....

Rise in Murders Has St. Louis Debating Why

Jennifer M. Joyce, the city’s circuit attorney, or prosecutor, an elected position, complains that in St. Louis, *the illegal possession of a gun is too often “a crime without a consequence,” *making it difficult to stop confrontation from turning lethal.

At the same time, deeper social roots of violence such as addiction and unemployment continue unchecked. *And city officials also cite what they call a “Ferguson effect,”* an increase in crime last year as police officers were diverted to control protests after a white officer shot and killed Michael Brown, an unarmed black teenager in the nearby suburb on Aug. 9.

-----------

*Now, an overstretched department is forced to pick one neighborhood at a time to flood with officers. *Last month, Chief Dotson even asked the state highway patrol if it could lend a dozen men to help watch downtown streets; the agency declined.
----
*When the police discover a gun in a car with several passengers, including some with felony records, but no one admits to owning the gun, criminal charges are often impossible, Mr. Rosenfeld said.*

*In addition, according to a 2014 study by Mr. Rosenfeld and his colleagues, a majority of those who are convicted of illegally possessing a gun but not caught using it in a crime receive probation rather than jail time. Gun laws and enforcement are stiffer in many other cities.*

Violence down in St. Louis but homicides hold steady. Are tougher penalties for gun crimes the answer?



But many challenges remain, official said. The department is still down more than 130 officers. Witnesses to crimes remain reluctant to come forward for fear of retaliation, making it difficult to close cases. And a lack of state laws to deter gun crimes has forced the police to turn to federal courts to indict some suspects.

On Tuesday, Edwards made a new pitch: He wants to see the mandatory minimum sentence for armed criminal action raised from its current ceiling of three years to at least 15 years for nonfatal shootings, and 25 years for fatal shootings.

=


----------



## frigidweirdo

candycorn said:


> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> idb said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> idb said:
> 
> 
> 
> You do understand statistics I assume?
> A small increase in numbers from a small base will be a large increase in percentage.
> E.g. if you have five murders in one year...then six murders the following year...what is the percentage increase?
> I count 8 firearm deaths in the UK in the year to March 2017.
> 
> Homicide in England and Wales - Office for National Statistics
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes...you focus on gun murder which has always, always been low in Britain even when they had access to guns.....it was always lower than here...you focus on that because you have to hide the fact that criminals in Britain are getting more guns...illegal guns, and they are using them for crime....currently, they are not using them for murder....but they are getting more guns and using them in increasing levels for crime against unarmed civilians....with a police force hamstrung by policies straight from our democrat party play book....cut manpower, cut the money, cripple them with P.C. policies....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> "even when they had access to guns", like they don't have access to guns.
> 
> We've done this before so many fucking times. THEY HAVE GUNS.
> 
> What's DIFFERENT is that access is LIMITED and RESTRICTED whereas in the US it isn't.
> 
> The issue here is that there are more guns than before, the Yardies brought in guns for the first real time. Gun murders WENT UP.
> 
> Homicide - Office for National Statistics
> 
> You can look on this interactive map and see. April 2002 to March 2003 was the highest murder rate. It got up to 1.7 murders per 100,000 people. Massively lower than the US's rate. This is for England and Wales rather than the UK.
> 
> By April 2014-March 2015 this has dropped to 0.9, nearly half.
> 
> That's with guns being in the country. So why did the murder rate go down?
> 
> Better policing, the left wing Labour Party increased spending on the police force.
> 
> You know what's changed since then? The right wing Tory Party reducing spending on policing.
> 
> The murder rate is going up. But by 2017 it was 10.7.
> 
> Homicide in England and Wales - Office for National Statistics
> 
> So, the murder rate fluctuates, and it often fluctuates based on police spending and the like. But the UK is more likely to deal with the problems from every aspect, social, economic etc, whereas in the US politicians ignore all the problems, and people like you do too.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The regular point that 2aguy makes is that gun laws don't prevent gun crimes 100% so should be scrapped.
> The answer just writes itself.
> Why have drug laws, abortion laws, immigration laws...?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The point that 2Aguy makes is that he's an absolute fraud and "fake news" reporter.
> 
> No, gun laws don't stop things 100%, who said they do?
> 
> The UK's murder rate is 4 time or more lower than the US's. A rise in crime is inevitable as is a drop in crime at other times. That's what happens in life.
> 
> The fraud is trying to claim that a rise is worse than a drop in crime and murders, REGARDLESS of what the rate is in the first place. This is just ridiculous.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> to repeat your point…
> 
> No, gun laws don't stop things 100%, who said they do?
> 
> The UK's murder rate is 4 time or more lower than the US's. A rise in crime is inevitable as is a drop in crime at other times. That's what happens in life.
Click to expand...


2Aguy's attitude is, if they don't stop gun crime by 100% then there's no point in having those gun laws.


----------



## candycorn

frigidweirdo said:


> 2Aguy's attitude is, if they don't stop gun crime by 100% then there's no point in having those gun laws.



Correct.


----------



## 2aguy

frigidweirdo said:


> candycorn said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> idb said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yes...you focus on gun murder which has always, always been low in Britain even when they had access to guns.....it was always lower than here...you focus on that because you have to hide the fact that criminals in Britain are getting more guns...illegal guns, and they are using them for crime....currently, they are not using them for murder....but they are getting more guns and using them in increasing levels for crime against unarmed civilians....with a police force hamstrung by policies straight from our democrat party play book....cut manpower, cut the money, cripple them with P.C. policies....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "even when they had access to guns", like they don't have access to guns.
> 
> We've done this before so many fucking times. THEY HAVE GUNS.
> 
> What's DIFFERENT is that access is LIMITED and RESTRICTED whereas in the US it isn't.
> 
> The issue here is that there are more guns than before, the Yardies brought in guns for the first real time. Gun murders WENT UP.
> 
> Homicide - Office for National Statistics
> 
> You can look on this interactive map and see. April 2002 to March 2003 was the highest murder rate. It got up to 1.7 murders per 100,000 people. Massively lower than the US's rate. This is for England and Wales rather than the UK.
> 
> By April 2014-March 2015 this has dropped to 0.9, nearly half.
> 
> That's with guns being in the country. So why did the murder rate go down?
> 
> Better policing, the left wing Labour Party increased spending on the police force.
> 
> You know what's changed since then? The right wing Tory Party reducing spending on policing.
> 
> The murder rate is going up. But by 2017 it was 10.7.
> 
> Homicide in England and Wales - Office for National Statistics
> 
> So, the murder rate fluctuates, and it often fluctuates based on police spending and the like. But the UK is more likely to deal with the problems from every aspect, social, economic etc, whereas in the US politicians ignore all the problems, and people like you do too.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The regular point that 2aguy makes is that gun laws don't prevent gun crimes 100% so should be scrapped.
> The answer just writes itself.
> Why have drug laws, abortion laws, immigration laws...?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The point that 2Aguy makes is that he's an absolute fraud and "fake news" reporter.
> 
> No, gun laws don't stop things 100%, who said they do?
> 
> The UK's murder rate is 4 time or more lower than the US's. A rise in crime is inevitable as is a drop in crime at other times. That's what happens in life.
> 
> The fraud is trying to claim that a rise is worse than a drop in crime and murders, REGARDLESS of what the rate is in the first place. This is just ridiculous.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> to repeat your point…
> 
> No, gun laws don't stop things 100%, who said they do?
> 
> The UK's murder rate is 4 time or more lower than the US's. A rise in crime is inevitable as is a drop in crime at other times. That's what happens in life.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 2Aguy's attitude is, if they don't stop gun crime by 100% then there's no point in having those gun laws.
Click to expand...



No.... you are a slow person so you don't understand very much of anything.

The entire point is that taking guns away from law abiding people does not decrease the gun crime rate....as Britain demonstrates....

That law abiding people own and carry guns does not increase the gun crime rate, as America shows............

Criminals drive the crime rate, and locking them up, lowers the crime rate...as America showed in the 1990s.....


----------



## frigidweirdo

2aguy said:


> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> candycorn said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> idb said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> 
> "even when they had access to guns", like they don't have access to guns.
> 
> We've done this before so many fucking times. THEY HAVE GUNS.
> 
> What's DIFFERENT is that access is LIMITED and RESTRICTED whereas in the US it isn't.
> 
> The issue here is that there are more guns than before, the Yardies brought in guns for the first real time. Gun murders WENT UP.
> 
> Homicide - Office for National Statistics
> 
> You can look on this interactive map and see. April 2002 to March 2003 was the highest murder rate. It got up to 1.7 murders per 100,000 people. Massively lower than the US's rate. This is for England and Wales rather than the UK.
> 
> By April 2014-March 2015 this has dropped to 0.9, nearly half.
> 
> That's with guns being in the country. So why did the murder rate go down?
> 
> Better policing, the left wing Labour Party increased spending on the police force.
> 
> You know what's changed since then? The right wing Tory Party reducing spending on policing.
> 
> The murder rate is going up. But by 2017 it was 10.7.
> 
> Homicide in England and Wales - Office for National Statistics
> 
> So, the murder rate fluctuates, and it often fluctuates based on police spending and the like. But the UK is more likely to deal with the problems from every aspect, social, economic etc, whereas in the US politicians ignore all the problems, and people like you do too.
> 
> 
> 
> The regular point that 2aguy makes is that gun laws don't prevent gun crimes 100% so should be scrapped.
> The answer just writes itself.
> Why have drug laws, abortion laws, immigration laws...?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The point that 2Aguy makes is that he's an absolute fraud and "fake news" reporter.
> 
> No, gun laws don't stop things 100%, who said they do?
> 
> The UK's murder rate is 4 time or more lower than the US's. A rise in crime is inevitable as is a drop in crime at other times. That's what happens in life.
> 
> The fraud is trying to claim that a rise is worse than a drop in crime and murders, REGARDLESS of what the rate is in the first place. This is just ridiculous.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> to repeat your point…
> 
> No, gun laws don't stop things 100%, who said they do?
> 
> The UK's murder rate is 4 time or more lower than the US's. A rise in crime is inevitable as is a drop in crime at other times. That's what happens in life.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 2Aguy's attitude is, if they don't stop gun crime by 100% then there's no point in having those gun laws.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> No.... you are a slow person so you don't understand very much of anything.
> 
> The entire point is that taking guns away from law abiding people does not decrease the gun crime rate....as Britain demonstrates....
> 
> That law abiding people own and carry guns does not increase the gun crime rate, as America shows............
> 
> Criminals drive the crime rate, and locking them up, lowers the crime rate...as America showed in the 1990s.....
Click to expand...


Ah, insults. Remember what I said about insults?


----------



## JoeB131

Skull Pilot said:


> Funny when I told you they use a different methodology for defining murder you scoffed. but now you use the very argument you dismissed



Not at all... there's really only one way to define murder.  You got a dead body and someone killed him... everyone defines that the same way.  

But the US doesn't call it rape until fluids are exchanged, while the Brits call any clumsy groping a rape. 



Skull Pilot said:


> Most of us don't give a flying or any other kind of fuck about the UK and their boot licking monarch worshipers but you control freaks seem to love the UK so much you want to be just like them



YOu mean, when we see something they do that works, um, yeah, we should totally try that.  

Gun control works in the UK. They have less murder, so little crime they can actually investigate the little stuff our cops ignore, it's safe to go out on the street at night....  

But man, every time we have a mass shooting, TwoTinyGuy gets out here and tells us how it's just awful that the London has a quarter of the number of murders Chicago has with three times as many people.


----------



## JoeB131

2aguy said:


> The entire point is that taking guns away from law abiding people does not decrease the gun crime rate....as Britain demonstrates....
> 
> That law abiding people own and carry guns does not increase the gun crime rate, as America shows............



Again- USA- 15,000 gun murders a year. 
UK - 48 gun murders a year. 

Someone has figured this out, and it ain't us, Two Tiny Guy. 

This isn't complicated.  When you take guns away from everyone, the bad guys can't get them.  They just aren't available.


----------



## JoeB131

Pilot1 said:


> We left Europe, and rebelled against England for a reason. We didn't want to be subjects controlled by ROYALTY. Today liberal/progressives want to make our government all powerful, and like royalty. They demand government solutions for everything. That is why they want to remove the Second Amendment, and our Natural Right to defend ourselves.



Um, guy, who is going to defend us from you gun nuts? Other gun nuts.  

I don't worry about the government coming to get me.  I might worry about that if I wasn't white, because we are that kind of country...  

I do worry about some nut shooting up a theater or a shopping mall or a place I happen to be working.  And yes, when you have to put security guards, metal detectors, key card doors and all sorts of other security measures in place because of the one nut who might go on a rampage, then you aren't particularly free, are you?


----------



## Pilot1

MORE gun laws are counterproductive to the safety of the law abiding.


----------



## JoeB131

2aguy said:


> Not really, Andrew Klavan on his podcast talked about this....... he said Freedom isn't the driving force for human beings.....it is safety and security, even it that means being a slave....he points to the Exodus story in the Bible where the Israelis are freed from slavery, with God using miracles to save them...then they bitch to Moses about how slavery was better than being in the desert.......



Okay, let's look at that story. First, the Israelite weren't "slaves" in Egypt... They just weren't allowed to practice their religion.  Not that there is a SHRED of archaeological evidence that they ever lived in Egypt. Not to mention when Moses laid down the law, he put in a bunch or rules for slavery and slave ownership.  (This is one of the first things I noticed when I actually started reading the bible instead of just accepting the Disney-fied version the Nuns were feeding us.)  

Darn straight that they started bitching when they figured out that Moses had taken them from a place where they got regular food to where all they had to eat was Manna.  

Second, ALL human interaction is a balance between individual rights and collective safety.  Otherwise, every fender bender would escalate into a shoot-out pretty quickly if we didn't have traffic laws and police to enforce them.  

Obviously, there is a scale between Anarchy and Despotism, and you want to hit a nice middle ground instead of either one of the extremes. The problem with you gun nuts is that you think that we can get closer to the anarchy and have a good result... 



2aguy said:


> If you like conservative philosophical discusssions he is a really good one to listen too on Itunes or watch on Youtube or at the dailywire.......he is a crime fiction writer, whose books have been made into Clint Eastwood movies, and he recently wrote the screenplay for Gosnell....he talks culture, Hollywood, and religion.........great guy....



Oh, you mean he's a complete nutbag disconnected from reality...


----------



## JoeB131

2aguy said:


> You guys have to hide behind the murder rate because the increasing gun crime shows taking guns away from law abiding people does not decrease the gun crime rate...



Except countries that don't have private gun ownership have a lot less murder than we do.  

I kind of don't care about other crimes...  you can get over those. You don't get over being dead.


----------



## Skull Pilot

harmonica said:


> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> harmonica said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> harmonica said:
> 
> 
> 
> answer the question:
> why is UK's murder rate 4 times lower?
> or France's/Germany's?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tell me why NH has a murder rate more than 4 times lower than CA  despite CA having the harshest gun laws in the country
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> very bad, terrible comparison--WRONG
> ......anyone that graduated high school science/math knows for a hypothesis to be valid/etc using comparisons, the test subjects have be comparable/etc--ETC
> ..NH population 1.3 million
> ..Cali *39 *million with twice the density
> 
> that's why
> AND the laws are not federal
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Funny how you talk about education yet you do not understand ratios
> 
> The murder RATE is murders per 100,00 it matters not if you compare different states because the RATIO accounts for population size
> 
> But if I didn't understand ratios and used your argument then your comparison of murder rates between the UK and the US is invalidated because the UK has a population od 66 million and the US has a population of 350 million
> 
> And no the laws are not federal which is why the comparison between states is relevant.
> 
> There are 23 states that have murder RATES less than CA and CA has the harshest gun laws in the country so if gun laws actually lowered murder rates then CA would have the lowest rate in the country and NH would have a much higher murder rate.
> 
> Our murder rate is driven by relatively few very distinct areas in the country that are ultra violent.  These areas are those that are historically plagued by segregation, poverty, unemployment , underemployment, substandard education, crime, drugs and gangs.
> 
> 70% of all murders occur in these areas which tend to be inner city neighborhoods that exist in very small areas of just 2% of all the counties in the US.
> 
> We do not have a gun problem.  We have a cancer in our inner cities that breeds enough violence and murder so as to skew the rates for the entire country
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> wrong--
> they are not comparable
> density is twice as much
> population much more
> LA, NYCity and Chi population density MUCH more than STL
> you expect more problems with higher density--but we see STL has more problems
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Population density and degree of urbanization.
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Variables Affecting Crime
Click to expand...


Murder RATE takes differing population sizes into account.

What do you not understand about that?


----------



## Skull Pilot

harmonica said:


> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> harmonica said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> harmonica said:
> 
> 
> 
> answer the question:
> why is UK's murder rate 4 times lower?
> or France's/Germany's?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tell me why NH has a murder rate more than 4 times lower than CA  despite CA having the harshest gun laws in the country
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> very bad, terrible comparison--WRONG
> ......anyone that graduated high school science/math knows for a hypothesis to be valid/etc using comparisons, the test subjects have be comparable/etc--ETC
> ..NH population 1.3 million
> ..Cali *39 *million with twice the density
> 
> that's why
> AND the laws are not federal
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Funny how you talk about education yet you do not understand ratios
> 
> The murder RATE is murders per 100,00 it matters not if you compare different states because the RATIO accounts for population size
> 
> But if I didn't understand ratios and used your argument then your comparison of murder rates between the UK and the US is invalidated because the UK has a population od 66 million and the US has a population of 350 million
> 
> And no the laws are not federal which is why the comparison between states is relevant.
> 
> There are 23 states that have murder RATES less than CA and CA has the harshest gun laws in the country so if gun laws actually lowered murder rates then CA would have the lowest rate in the country and NH would have a much higher murder rate.
> 
> Our murder rate is driven by relatively few very distinct areas in the country that are ultra violent.  These areas are those that are historically plagued by segregation, poverty, unemployment , underemployment, substandard education, crime, drugs and gangs.
> 
> 70% of all murders occur in these areas which tend to be inner city neighborhoods that exist in very small areas of just 2% of all the counties in the US.
> 
> We do not have a gun problem.  We have a cancer in our inner cities that breeds enough violence and murder so as to skew the rates for the entire country
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> also, France, Great Britain, and Germany--lower murder rates
> the numbers are too large and right there to argue
Click to expand...


We have very real and very relevant differences from those countries that go far beyond gun laws


----------



## Pilot1

In the U.S. we have an inner city societal/cultural problem with Black, on Black violence isolated to these areas.  It skews the numbers dramatically, yet the Democrats in these cities don't address the problem.  They are OK with that violence, but want to take away firearms from the law abiding.  Why?


----------



## Skull Pilot

JoeB131 said:


> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> 
> Funny when I told you they use a different methodology for defining murder you scoffed. but now you use the very argument you dismissed
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Not at all... there's really only one way to define murder.  You got a dead body and someone killed him... everyone defines that the same way.
> 
> But the US doesn't call it rape until fluids are exchanged, while the Brits call any clumsy groping a rape.
> 
> 
> 
> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> 
> Most of us don't give a flying or any other kind of fuck about the UK and their boot licking monarch worshipers but you control freaks seem to love the UK so much you want to be just like them
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> YOu mean, when we see something they do that works, um, yeah, we should totally try that.
> 
> Gun control works in the UK. They have less murder, so little crime they can actually investigate the little stuff our cops ignore, it's safe to go out on the street at night....
> 
> But man, every time we have a mass shooting, TwoTinyGuy gets out here and tells us how it's just awful that the London has a quarter of the number of murders Chicago has with three times as many people.
Click to expand...

There are different ways to COUNT murders and the UK only counts murders where someone has been tried and convicted so no unsolved murders make it into their official murder tallies


----------



## frigidweirdo

Pilot1 said:


> In the U.S. we have an inner city societal/cultural problem with Black, on Black violence isolated to these areas.  It skews the numbers dramatically, yet the Democrats in these cities don't address the problem.  They are OK with that violence, but want to take away firearms from the law abiding.  Why?



Here the problem is that A) there's easy access to firearms. B) there's a lack of effort at making education suitable for people to be able to get out of the hole they're in. C) promote small business rather than give massive tax cuts to multinationals. D) have after school programs and the like to keep kids on the straight and narrow (The London Olympics is credited with a massive reduction in crime in London).


----------



## Skull Pilot

frigidweirdo said:


> Pilot1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> In the U.S. we have an inner city societal/cultural problem with Black, on Black violence isolated to these areas.  It skews the numbers dramatically, yet the Democrats in these cities don't address the problem.  They are OK with that violence, but want to take away firearms from the law abiding.  Why?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here the problem is that A) there's easy access to firearms. B) there's a lack of effort at making education suitable for people to be able to get out of the hole they're in. C) promote small business rather than give massive tax cuts to multinationals. D) have after school programs and the like to keep kids on the straight and narrow (The London Olympics is credited with a massive reduction in crime in London).
Click to expand...


Easy access to ILLEGAL firearms so why don't you concentrate on that rather than stomping on the rights of the 
99.999% of LEGAL gun owners who will never commit any crime never mind murder?


----------



## Pilot1

Law abiding gun owners are not the problem.  Go after the criminals.


----------



## dannyboys

idb said:


> Clearly the only sensible answer is to have more guns freely available...that'll fix it.


No. The solution is to remove ANYONE who is caught with a illegal gun.
Stick them all on a island in the Atlantic.
Lots of goats to fuck and eat.
Lots of pretty young men to molest.
Lifetime sentences.


----------



## JoeB131

Skull Pilot said:


> There are different ways to COUNT murders and the UK only counts murders where someone has been tried and convicted so no unsolved murders make it into their official murder tallies



Still not true...


----------



## Skull Pilot

JoeB131 said:


> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> 
> There are different ways to COUNT murders and the UK only counts murders where someone has been tried and convicted so no unsolved murders make it into their official murder tallies
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Still not true...
Click to expand...

I've given you a link to the publication from the House of Commons multuple times and you know it

So just because you say something isn't true in no way means it is false in fact with your record of duplicitousness just the opposite is true


----------



## dannyboys

idb said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yep....young males, raised without fathers to teach them to be adult men, mixed with 3rd world males running the drug gangs, and the British police hamstrung due to lack of manpower, money, and politically correct rules of engagment.....
> 
> London on course for highest number of killings in a decade after 2018 passes 2017 total
> 
> 
> 
> You do realise that London isn't Britain...don't you?
Click to expand...

Chicago isn't the United States either asshole!
Remove every illegal gun in every inner city shithole in the US and the 'gun violence' stats would fall dramatically.
How Bad Is Violence in Chicago? Depends on Your Race - The Atlantic


----------



## Skull Pilot

dannyboys said:


> idb said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yep....young males, raised without fathers to teach them to be adult men, mixed with 3rd world males running the drug gangs, and the British police hamstrung due to lack of manpower, money, and politically correct rules of engagment.....
> 
> London on course for highest number of killings in a decade after 2018 passes 2017 total
> 
> 
> 
> You do realise that London isn't Britain...don't you?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Chicago isn't the United States either asshole!
> Remove every illegal gun in every inner city shithole in the US and the 'gun violence' stats would fall dramatically.
> How Bad Is Violence in Chicago? Depends on Your Race - The Atlantic
Click to expand...


Our murder rate is skewed by just a handful of inner city areas in this country because 70% of all murder occurs in these very small very well defined areas of just 2% of all the counties in the country


----------



## Pilot1

Skull Pilot said:


> Our murder rate is skewed by just a handful of inner city areas in this country because 70% of all murder occurs in these very small very well defined areas of just 2% of all the counties in the country



And most of the rest of "gun violence" statistics are SUICIDES.  Yet the left wants to remove guns from the hands of the LAW ABIDING as their solution to just DO SOMETHING, ANYTHING!!!  They are like little girls running with their skirts over their heads. 

Remove the inner city, black on black violence, and suicides, and you have very little "gun violence" in the U.S.  Yet the media makes it seem like it is the Wild West here.  Talk to Europeans and see what their media tells them about the U.S.  Outside of my gun range, and cops, I have NEVER seen a gun in public in the U.S.


----------



## dannyboys

Skull Pilot said:


> dannyboys said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> idb said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yep....young males, raised without fathers to teach them to be adult men, mixed with 3rd world males running the drug gangs, and the British police hamstrung due to lack of manpower, money, and politically correct rules of engagment.....
> 
> London on course for highest number of killings in a decade after 2018 passes 2017 total
> 
> 
> 
> You do realise that London isn't Britain...don't you?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Chicago isn't the United States either asshole!
> Remove every illegal gun in every inner city shithole in the US and the 'gun violence' stats would fall dramatically.
> How Bad Is Violence in Chicago? Depends on Your Race - The Atlantic
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Our murder rate is skewed by just a handful of inner city areas in this country because 70% of all murder occurs in these very small very well defined areas of just 2% of all the counties in the country
Click to expand...

And about 14% of the population habitually commit about 90% of the gun crimes in the US.


----------



## JoeB131

Skull Pilot said:


> I've given you a link to the publication from the House of Commons multuple times and you know it



And it wasn't what you represented it as...  kind of like TwoTiny's claims that Kellerman recanted.  



Skull Pilot said:


> So just because you say something isn't true in no way means it is false in fact with your record of duplicitousness just the opposite is true



Again, you should be able to show us the "Real" numbers if what you say is true, then?


----------



## JoeB131

Skull Pilot said:


> Our murder rate is skewed by just a handful of inner city areas in this country because 70% of all murder occurs in these very small very well defined areas of just 2% of all the counties in the country



Which is where most of the population lives... 

I'm always amazed that you want to count Harden County IL (Pop. 4320) with Cook County (population 5,211,000) and say, "See, see, most of the murders are happening in one county!


----------



## harmonica

Skull Pilot said:


> harmonica said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> harmonica said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> harmonica said:
> 
> 
> 
> answer the question:
> why is UK's murder rate 4 times lower?
> or France's/Germany's?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tell me why NH has a murder rate more than 4 times lower than CA  despite CA having the harshest gun laws in the country
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> very bad, terrible comparison--WRONG
> ......anyone that graduated high school science/math knows for a hypothesis to be valid/etc using comparisons, the test subjects have be comparable/etc--ETC
> ..NH population 1.3 million
> ..Cali *39 *million with twice the density
> 
> that's why
> AND the laws are not federal
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Funny how you talk about education yet you do not understand ratios
> 
> The murder RATE is murders per 100,00 it matters not if you compare different states because the RATIO accounts for population size
> 
> But if I didn't understand ratios and used your argument then your comparison of murder rates between the UK and the US is invalidated because the UK has a population od 66 million and the US has a population of 350 million
> 
> And no the laws are not federal which is why the comparison between states is relevant.
> 
> There are 23 states that have murder RATES less than CA and CA has the harshest gun laws in the country so if gun laws actually lowered murder rates then CA would have the lowest rate in the country and NH would have a much higher murder rate.
> 
> Our murder rate is driven by relatively few very distinct areas in the country that are ultra violent.  These areas are those that are historically plagued by segregation, poverty, unemployment , underemployment, substandard education, crime, drugs and gangs.
> 
> 70% of all murders occur in these areas which tend to be inner city neighborhoods that exist in very small areas of just 2% of all the counties in the US.
> 
> We do not have a gun problem.  We have a cancer in our inner cities that breeds enough violence and murder so as to skew the rates for the entire country
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> also, France, Great Britain, and Germany--lower murder rates
> the numbers are too large and right there to argue
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> We have very real and very relevant differences from those countries that go far beyond gun laws
Click to expand...

....here --plain as day--I see in all the comment sections ALL the time--and from you and 2A that Cali, LA, CHi, etc have strict gun laws but so many murders--BULLSHIT
their murder rates are LOWER than many pro-gun states
look at the map here-very pro-gun Mo, Texas, Alaska, etc
NYork, Cali, and Illinois firearm mortality rates LOWER

the *MAIN *point being you people ALWAYS bring up strict gun control in California and Chi as not working--but they ARE--as the numbers *undeniably *show
....you use Chicago as your *BEST* example of strict gun laws not working YET, very pro-gun St Louis has a much higher murder rate
....
AND --ADDED to that----- [ the HOME run that smashes ALL your arguments ] Chi is not even in the top ten* most dangerous* cities--but STL [ very pro-gun ] STL IS in the top ten--*number 1* sometimes
the very PRO-gun city is the most dangerous city
this makes 2AGuy's crime states/etc irrelevant/nonsensical
case is closed
FBI:
St. Louis Is America's Most Dangerous City: FBI
STL news
St. Louis Bumps Detroit Out for Most Dangerous City
etc

file:///home/chronos/u-464bdf2ab53ed40cf166e800eb2be6351946d14c/Downloads/Stats%20of%20the%20States%20-%20Firearm%20Mortality.mhtml


----------



## harmonica

...let me say it again---the fact that smashes your Chicago bullshit
all I ever see in comments sections in CNN/ABC/Fox/Yahoo, etc is Chicago strict gun laws don't work--but they ARE
..Chicago is not even in the top ten most dangerous cities lists!!!
..Chicago is not even in the top ten most dangerous cities lists!!!
but very pro-gun St Louis is !!!

so stop with the Chicago strict gun laws crap
if you want to talk about NH/etc etc etc -- that's a different point/subject


----------



## rightwinger

Shows what happens when you introduce more guns into a society


----------



## harmonica

10 year high--and their rate is still many times *LOWER* than the US!!!!!!!

do you not see the ridiculousness of trying to use UK as a pro-gun argument???!!!!!!!?????


you are worse than fake news/CNN/etc


----------



## Skull Pilot

JoeB131 said:


> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> 
> I've given you a link to the publication from the House of Commons multuple times and you know it
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And it wasn't what you represented it as...  kind of like TwoTiny's claims that Kellerman recanted.
> 
> 
> 
> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> 
> So just because you say something isn't true in no way means it is false in fact with your record of duplicitousness just the opposite is true
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Again, you should be able to show us the "Real" numbers if what you say is true, then?
Click to expand...


Just how the fuck am I supposed to know what murders the UK doesn't count

I gave you a fucking governemnt publication that says what they do

you as usual give nothing to support any of the SHIT you spew


----------



## Skull Pilot

harmonica said:


> 10 year high--and their rate is still many times *LOWER* than the US!!!!!!!
> 
> do you not see the ridiculousness of trying to use UK as a pro-gun argument???!!!!!!!?????
> 
> 
> you are worse than fake news/CNN/etc


 So the fuck what?

Move your sorry ass to the UK and bend the knee to the fucking queen like a good little sheep


----------



## Skull Pilot

harmonica said:


> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> harmonica said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> harmonica said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> 
> Tell me why NH has a murder rate more than 4 times lower than CA  despite CA having the harshest gun laws in the country
> 
> 
> 
> very bad, terrible comparison--WRONG
> ......anyone that graduated high school science/math knows for a hypothesis to be valid/etc using comparisons, the test subjects have be comparable/etc--ETC
> ..NH population 1.3 million
> ..Cali *39 *million with twice the density
> 
> that's why
> AND the laws are not federal
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Funny how you talk about education yet you do not understand ratios
> 
> The murder RATE is murders per 100,00 it matters not if you compare different states because the RATIO accounts for population size
> 
> But if I didn't understand ratios and used your argument then your comparison of murder rates between the UK and the US is invalidated because the UK has a population od 66 million and the US has a population of 350 million
> 
> And no the laws are not federal which is why the comparison between states is relevant.
> 
> There are 23 states that have murder RATES less than CA and CA has the harshest gun laws in the country so if gun laws actually lowered murder rates then CA would have the lowest rate in the country and NH would have a much higher murder rate.
> 
> Our murder rate is driven by relatively few very distinct areas in the country that are ultra violent.  These areas are those that are historically plagued by segregation, poverty, unemployment , underemployment, substandard education, crime, drugs and gangs.
> 
> 70% of all murders occur in these areas which tend to be inner city neighborhoods that exist in very small areas of just 2% of all the counties in the US.
> 
> We do not have a gun problem.  We have a cancer in our inner cities that breeds enough violence and murder so as to skew the rates for the entire country
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> also, France, Great Britain, and Germany--lower murder rates
> the numbers are too large and right there to argue
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> We have very real and very relevant differences from those countries that go far beyond gun laws
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> ....here --plain as day--I see in all the comment sections ALL the time--and from you and 2A that Cali, LA, CHi, etc have strict gun laws but so many murders--BULLSHIT
> their murder rates are LOWER than many pro-gun states
> look at the map here-very pro-gun Mo, Texas, Alaska, etc
> NYork, Cali, and Illinois firearm mortality rates LOWER
> 
> the *MAIN *point being you people ALWAYS bring up strict gun control in California and Chi as not working--but they ARE--as the numbers *undeniably *show
> ....you use Chicago as your *BEST* example of strict gun laws not working YET, very pro-gun St Louis has a much higher murder rate
> ....
> AND --ADDED to that----- [ the HOME run that smashes ALL your arguments ] Chi is not even in the top ten* most dangerous* cities--but STL [ very pro-gun ] STL IS in the top ten--*number 1* sometimes
> the very PRO-gun city is the most dangerous city
> this makes 2AGuy's crime states/etc irrelevant/nonsensical
> case is closed
> FBI:
> St. Louis Is America's Most Dangerous City: FBI
> STL news
> St. Louis Bumps Detroit Out for Most Dangerous City
> etc
> 
> file:///home/chronos/u-464bdf2ab53ed40cf166e800eb2be6351946d14c/Downloads/Stats%20of%20the%20States%20-%20Firearm%20Mortality.mhtml
Click to expand...


the Murder rate in CA is 4 times higher than NH and is higher than 23 other and many of those 23 states have far laxer gun laws

so it's not gun laws that lower murder rates


----------



## Skull Pilot

rightwinger said:


> Shows what happens when you introduce more guns into a society


There are more guns in rural america than in urban america and the crime RATES are higher in urban america


----------



## Pilot1

Just make crime illegal.  Ban crime!  That will stop it.


----------



## harmonica

most US homicides are gun homicides


----------



## harmonica

UK--a pro-gun argument................???!!!!!!!


----------



## Tommy Tainant

Skull Pilot said:


> dannyboys said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> idb said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yep....young males, raised without fathers to teach them to be adult men, mixed with 3rd world males running the drug gangs, and the British police hamstrung due to lack of manpower, money, and politically correct rules of engagment.....
> 
> London on course for highest number of killings in a decade after 2018 passes 2017 total
> 
> 
> 
> You do realise that London isn't Britain...don't you?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Chicago isn't the United States either asshole!
> Remove every illegal gun in every inner city shithole in the US and the 'gun violence' stats would fall dramatically.
> How Bad Is Violence in Chicago? Depends on Your Race - The Atlantic
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Our murder rate is skewed by just a handful of inner city areas in this country because 70% of all murder occurs in these very small very well defined areas of just 2% of all the counties in the country
Click to expand...

Ok, if you want to play that game then we wont count London,Liverpool and Manchester. You are back in the same position.


----------



## harmonica

Skull Pilot said:


> harmonica said:
> 
> 
> 
> 10 year high--and their rate is still many times *LOWER* than the US!!!!!!!
> 
> do you not see the ridiculousness of trying to use UK as a pro-gun argument???!!!!!!!?????
> 
> 
> you are worse than fake news/CNN/etc
> 
> 
> 
> So the fuck what?
> 
> Move your sorry ass to the UK and bend the knee to the fucking queen like a good little sheep
Click to expand...

great argument/points/facts
that's usually the response when you know you've lost the argument


----------



## harmonica

Skull Pilot said:


> dannyboys said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> idb said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yep....young males, raised without fathers to teach them to be adult men, mixed with 3rd world males running the drug gangs, and the British police hamstrung due to lack of manpower, money, and politically correct rules of engagment.....
> 
> London on course for highest number of killings in a decade after 2018 passes 2017 total
> 
> 
> 
> You do realise that London isn't Britain...don't you?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Chicago isn't the United States either asshole!
> Remove every illegal gun in every inner city shithole in the US and the 'gun violence' stats would fall dramatically.
> How Bad Is Violence in Chicago? Depends on Your Race - The Atlantic
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Our murder rate is skewed by just a handful of inner city areas in this country because 70% of all murder occurs in these very small very well defined areas of just 2% of all the counties in the country
Click to expand...

so we don't want to try to cut this murder rate down?? wherever the murders are??
they are ok because they are in those areas?
they still add to the murder rate--you can't pick and choose


----------



## Pilot1

Why don't Democrats want to reduce Black on Black violence in our cities?


----------



## JoeB131

harmonica said:


> ...let me say it again---the fact that smashes your Chicago bullshit
> all I ever see in comments sections in CNN/ABC/Fox/Yahoo, etc is Chicago strict gun laws don't work--but they ARE
> ..Chicago is not even in the top ten most dangerous cities lists!!!
> ..Chicago is not even in the top ten most dangerous cities lists!!!
> but very pro-gun St Louis is !!!
> 
> so stop with the Chicago strict gun laws crap
> if you want to talk about NH/etc etc etc -- that's a different point/subject



Chicago doesn't have strict gun laws... We haven't had them since the McDonald Decision struck down the city's 1984 gun ban.


----------



## JoeB131

Skull Pilot said:


> Just how the fuck am I supposed to know what murders the UK doesn't count
> 
> I gave you a fucking governemnt publication that says what they do



Yeah,b ecause I can get you a link that tells me EXACTLY how many murders happen in the UK. 

You just claim that they aren't counting the ones where convictions weren't achieved... which is probably very few of them, the British have something like a 90% clearance rate on murders, because they have so few and each one gets properly investigated.  .


----------



## 2aguy

harmonica said:


> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> dannyboys said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> idb said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yep....young males, raised without fathers to teach them to be adult men, mixed with 3rd world males running the drug gangs, and the British police hamstrung due to lack of manpower, money, and politically correct rules of engagment.....
> 
> London on course for highest number of killings in a decade after 2018 passes 2017 total
> 
> 
> 
> You do realise that London isn't Britain...don't you?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Chicago isn't the United States either asshole!
> Remove every illegal gun in every inner city shithole in the US and the 'gun violence' stats would fall dramatically.
> How Bad Is Violence in Chicago? Depends on Your Race - The Atlantic
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Our murder rate is skewed by just a handful of inner city areas in this country because 70% of all murder occurs in these very small very well defined areas of just 2% of all the counties in the country
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> so we don't want to try to cut this murder rate down?? wherever the murders are??
> they are ok because they are in those areas?
> they still add to the murder rate--you can't pick and choose
Click to expand...



No...we  want to cut those murder rates down but your way, taking guns from people who don't commit the gun crime doesn't work.    We told you what works....when you catch violent gun offenders committing crimes with guns, you lock them up for 30 years.....if you catch a felon with an illegal gun you lock them up for 30 years....then, like in Japan, the criminals will stop using guns for crime....but when you do as the democrat party does, with their judges and politicians, and you make repeat, violent gun crimes revolving door crimes ....then you don't lower the gun murder rate.


----------



## 2aguy

JoeB131 said:


> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> 
> Just how the fuck am I supposed to know what murders the UK doesn't count
> 
> I gave you a fucking governemnt publication that says what they do
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah,b ecause I can get you a link that tells me EXACTLY how many murders happen in the UK.
> 
> You just claim that they aren't counting the ones where convictions weren't achieved... which is probably very few of them, the British have something like a 90% clearance rate on murders, because they have so few and each one gets properly investigated.  .
Click to expand...



Not anymore..... they are taking money from police for their social welfare programs, and they are handicapping the police with accusations of racism and politically correct policies....


----------



## 2aguy

JoeB131 said:


> harmonica said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...let me say it again---the fact that smashes your Chicago bullshit
> all I ever see in comments sections in CNN/ABC/Fox/Yahoo, etc is Chicago strict gun laws don't work--but they ARE
> ..Chicago is not even in the top ten most dangerous cities lists!!!
> ..Chicago is not even in the top ten most dangerous cities lists!!!
> but very pro-gun St Louis is !!!
> 
> so stop with the Chicago strict gun laws crap
> if you want to talk about NH/etc etc etc -- that's a different point/subject
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Chicago doesn't have strict gun laws... We haven't had them since the McDonald Decision struck down the city's 1984 gun ban.
Click to expand...



We don't have gun stores or gun ranges in the city, we have strict gun control laws...what we also have are democrat judges putting violent, repeat gun offenders back on the street...that is the problem, not law abiding gun owners who carry guns for self defense.


----------



## 2aguy

harmonica said:


> UK--a pro-gun argument................???!!!!!!!




Again with the gun murder rate, a rate that has always, always been low in Britain even when they allowed normal people to own guns.   Now, with guns banned and confiscated their gun crime rate is going up....while here, where more Americans own and carry guns, our gun crime and gun murder rate are going down...

You can't explain that which is why you focus on gun murder...something that was always low in Britain, even with guns.


----------



## 2aguy

Skull Pilot said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> Shows what happens when you introduce more guns into a society
> 
> 
> 
> There are more guns in rural america than in urban america and the crime RATES are higher in urban america
Click to expand...



Yep....especially those areas controlled by democrats...

Analysis | The surprising way gun violence is dividing America

In the most Democratic regions, gun violence is more often committed against another, crimes that probably generate more news coverage and fear. In the most Republican areas, it is more often committed against oneself, suicides that may not attract as much attention.

------

As the below charts show, Democratic areas (measured by the party that controls the congressional district) are far more likely to experience almost all forms of malicious gun violence than Republican areas.


----------



## 2aguy

JoeB131 said:


> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> 
> Funny when I told you they use a different methodology for defining murder you scoffed. but now you use the very argument you dismissed
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Not at all... there's really only one way to define murder.  You got a dead body and someone killed him... everyone defines that the same way.
> 
> But the US doesn't call it rape until fluids are exchanged, while the Brits call any clumsy groping a rape.
> 
> 
> 
> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> 
> Most of us don't give a flying or any other kind of fuck about the UK and their boot licking monarch worshipers but you control freaks seem to love the UK so much you want to be just like them
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> YOu mean, when we see something they do that works, um, yeah, we should totally try that.
> 
> Gun control works in the UK. They have less murder, so little crime they can actually investigate the little stuff our cops ignore, it's safe to go out on the street at night....
> 
> But man, every time we have a mass shooting, TwoTinyGuy gets out here and tells us how it's just awful that the London has a quarter of the number of murders Chicago has with three times as many people.
Click to expand...



Gun control to work, would mean a reduction in gun crime.  There has not been a reduction in gun crime, there has only been an increase in gun crime since they banned and confiscated guns.  Now you will say the gun murder rate...but there has not been a decrease in the gun murder rate, so gun control has had no effect on that.....then you will say mass public shootings, and you fail with that because Britain averaged 1 mass public shooting every 10 years before they banned guns, and in recent years they have almost had 4, with all 4 stopped by random luck, not their gun laws.....

You don't know what you are talking about.


----------



## 2aguy

JoeB131 said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> You guys have to hide behind the murder rate because the increasing gun crime shows taking guns away from law abiding people does not decrease the gun crime rate...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Except countries that don't have private gun ownership have a lot less murder than we do.
> 
> I kind of don't care about other crimes...  you can get over those. You don't get over being dead.
Click to expand...



Wrong....America, with all it's guns ranks at 111 for murder across the globe.

Then, when you roll into that number the 1.1 million times a year Americans use their guns to stop rape, robbery and murder as well as mass public shootings, you have no argument.


----------



## JoeB131

2aguy said:


> No...we want to cut those murder rates down but your way, taking guns from people who don't commit the gun crime doesn't work. We told you what works....when you catch violent gun offenders committing crimes with guns, you lock them up for 30 years.....if you catch a felon with an illegal gun you lock them up for 30 years....then, like in Japan, the criminals will stop using guns for crime....but when you do as the democrat party does, with their judges and politicians, and you make repeat, violent gun crimes revolving door crimes ....then you don't lower the gun murder rate.



again, if we did what Japan did, we'd only lock up 70,000 people instead of the two million we lock up now. 

If locking people up was really a deterrent to crime, we'd be there.


----------



## 2aguy

JoeB131 said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> No...we want to cut those murder rates down but your way, taking guns from people who don't commit the gun crime doesn't work. We told you what works....when you catch violent gun offenders committing crimes with guns, you lock them up for 30 years.....if you catch a felon with an illegal gun you lock them up for 30 years....then, like in Japan, the criminals will stop using guns for crime....but when you do as the democrat party does, with their judges and politicians, and you make repeat, violent gun crimes revolving door crimes ....then you don't lower the gun murder rate.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> again, if we did what Japan did, we'd only lock up 70,000 people instead of the two million we lock up now.
> 
> If locking people up was really a deterrent to crime, we'd be there.
Click to expand...



Japan is a police state...yes...you like police states but Americans don't.....I just posted a thread on buying a bicycle in Japan, and the police involvement in that simple a task is insane.....they stop their criminals from carrying guns by locking them up for 15 years if they are caught with a gun, multiple guns, more time, bullets in the gun, even more time.....our democrat party judges and politicians let violent, known, repeat gun offenders out on bail after they are caught using a gun in a crime, and when they are felons caught in possession of a gun.....then, when they are caught in actual gun murder...they get bail.....and under 3 years jail time....

That is our problem, not law abiding people carrying guns for self defense.


----------



## Tommy Tainant

2aguy said:


> harmonica said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> UK--a pro-gun argument................???!!!!!!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Again with the gun murder rate, a rate that has always, always been low in Britain even when they allowed normal people to own guns.   Now, with guns banned and confiscated their gun crime rate is going up....while here, where more Americans own and carry guns, our gun crime and gun murder rate are going down...
> 
> You can't explain that which is why you focus on gun murder...something that was always low in Britain, even with guns.
Click to expand...

The gun murderr rate in Britain has always been low because we have never had your gun culture. When they banned handguns everybody thought it was a good idea. And it was. Nobody is agitating for the ban to be lifted. We dont want to become like America.


----------



## 2aguy

Tommy Tainant said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> harmonica said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> UK--a pro-gun argument................???!!!!!!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Again with the gun murder rate, a rate that has always, always been low in Britain even when they allowed normal people to own guns.   Now, with guns banned and confiscated their gun crime rate is going up....while here, where more Americans own and carry guns, our gun crime and gun murder rate are going down...
> 
> You can't explain that which is why you focus on gun murder...something that was always low in Britain, even with guns.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The gun murderr rate in Britain has always been low because we have never had your gun culture. When they banned handguns everybody thought it was a good idea. And it was. Nobody is agitating for the ban to be lifted. We dont want to become like America.
Click to expand...



No.... the gun murder rate has been low because your criminals don't murder their victims.   They banned handguns and criminals now have more of them.

You want your innocent people to be increasingly victimized by violent criminals.....you now have that.


----------



## harmonica

2aguy said:


> harmonica said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> dannyboys said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> idb said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yep....young males, raised without fathers to teach them to be adult men, mixed with 3rd world males running the drug gangs, and the British police hamstrung due to lack of manpower, money, and politically correct rules of engagment.....
> 
> London on course for highest number of killings in a decade after 2018 passes 2017 total
> 
> 
> 
> You do realise that London isn't Britain...don't you?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Chicago isn't the United States either asshole!
> Remove every illegal gun in every inner city shithole in the US and the 'gun violence' stats would fall dramatically.
> How Bad Is Violence in Chicago? Depends on Your Race - The Atlantic
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Our murder rate is skewed by just a handful of inner city areas in this country because 70% of all murder occurs in these very small very well defined areas of just 2% of all the counties in the country
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> so we don't want to try to cut this murder rate down?? wherever the murders are??
> they are ok because they are in those areas?
> they still add to the murder rate--you can't pick and choose
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> No...we  want to cut those murder rates down but your way, taking guns from people who don't commit the gun crime doesn't work.    We told you what works....when you catch violent gun offenders committing crimes with guns, you lock them up for 30 years.....if you catch a felon with an illegal gun you lock them up for 30 years....then, like in Japan, the criminals will stop using guns for crime....but when you do as the democrat party does, with their judges and politicians, and you make repeat, violent gun crimes revolving door crimes ....then you don't lower the gun murder rate.
Click to expand...

it does work in Germany, France, UK, NYCity, LA, Chicago


----------



## Tommy Tainant

2aguy said:


> Tommy Tainant said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> harmonica said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> UK--a pro-gun argument................???!!!!!!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Again with the gun murder rate, a rate that has always, always been low in Britain even when they allowed normal people to own guns.   Now, with guns banned and confiscated their gun crime rate is going up....while here, where more Americans own and carry guns, our gun crime and gun murder rate are going down...
> 
> You can't explain that which is why you focus on gun murder...something that was always low in Britain, even with guns.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The gun murderr rate in Britain has always been low because we have never had your gun culture. When they banned handguns everybody thought it was a good idea. And it was. Nobody is agitating for the ban to be lifted. We dont want to become like America.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> No.... the gun murder rate has been low because your criminals don't murder their victims.   They banned handguns and criminals now have more of them.
> 
> You want your innocent people to be increasingly victimized by violent criminals.....you now have that.
Click to expand...

You know nothing about the UK. 

Let me explain it to you.

US - lots of guns,lots of murders
UK - not many guns,not many murders.

That is it. You cannot produce one piece of data to challenge that. Not one.


----------



## 2aguy

harmonica said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> harmonica said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> dannyboys said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> idb said:
> 
> 
> 
> You do realise that London isn't Britain...don't you?
> 
> 
> 
> Chicago isn't the United States either asshole!
> Remove every illegal gun in every inner city shithole in the US and the 'gun violence' stats would fall dramatically.
> How Bad Is Violence in Chicago? Depends on Your Race - The Atlantic
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Our murder rate is skewed by just a handful of inner city areas in this country because 70% of all murder occurs in these very small very well defined areas of just 2% of all the counties in the country
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> so we don't want to try to cut this murder rate down?? wherever the murders are??
> they are ok because they are in those areas?
> they still add to the murder rate--you can't pick and choose
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> No...we  want to cut those murder rates down but your way, taking guns from people who don't commit the gun crime doesn't work.    We told you what works....when you catch violent gun offenders committing crimes with guns, you lock them up for 30 years.....if you catch a felon with an illegal gun you lock them up for 30 years....then, like in Japan, the criminals will stop using guns for crime....but when you do as the democrat party does, with their judges and politicians, and you make repeat, violent gun crimes revolving door crimes ....then you don't lower the gun murder rate.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> it does work in Germany, France, UK, NYCity, LA, Chicago
Click to expand...



Chicago?   U.K....where gun crime is going up?   Germany and France....France?  Where criminals get fully automatic military weapons easily?   L.A........ 

You have no idea what you are talking about.


----------



## 2aguy

Tommy Tainant said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tommy Tainant said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> harmonica said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> UK--a pro-gun argument................???!!!!!!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Again with the gun murder rate, a rate that has always, always been low in Britain even when they allowed normal people to own guns.   Now, with guns banned and confiscated their gun crime rate is going up....while here, where more Americans own and carry guns, our gun crime and gun murder rate are going down...
> 
> You can't explain that which is why you focus on gun murder...something that was always low in Britain, even with guns.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The gun murderr rate in Britain has always been low because we have never had your gun culture. When they banned handguns everybody thought it was a good idea. And it was. Nobody is agitating for the ban to be lifted. We dont want to become like America.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> No.... the gun murder rate has been low because your criminals don't murder their victims.   They banned handguns and criminals now have more of them.
> 
> You want your innocent people to be increasingly victimized by violent criminals.....you now have that.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You know nothing about the UK.
> 
> Let me explain it to you.
> 
> US - lots of guns,lots of murders
> UK - not many guns,not many murders.
> 
> That is it. You cannot produce one piece of data to challenge that. Not one.
Click to expand...



Britain didn't have lots of murders before they banned guns.....   they banned guns and they didn't change their gun murder rate....gun crime, however, keeps going up, showing that gun control is not working.  

Culture of violence: Gun crime goes up by 89% in a decade | Daily Mail Online

The latest Government figures show that the total number of firearm offences in England and Wales has increased from 5,209 in 1998/99 to 9,865 last year - a rise of 89 per cent. 

The number of people injured or killed by guns, excluding air weapons, has increased from 864 in 1998/99 to a provisional figure of 1,760 in 2008/09, an increase of 104 per cent . 

British Politicians Declare War on Knives

Firearms are strictly restricted in the U.K., including a near-total ban on handguns. Nevertheless, "_n the 12 months to October 2017, there were 2,500 offences involving guns: a 16 per cent increase on the previous year and a 44 per cent increase on 2014," the London Assembly's Police and Crime Committee noted in January. Criminals, it seems, are not averse to committing crimes—including the illegal acquisition of tools that help them commit more crimes.

Gun crime in London increases by 42% - BBC News

Gun crime offences in London surged by 42% in the last year, according to official statistics.

And as time goes on, the violence increases....

Violent crime on the rise in every corner of the country, figures suggest

But analysis of the figures force by force, showed the full extent of the problem, with only one constabulary, Nottinghamshire, recording a reduction in violent offences.

*The vast majority of police forces actually witnessed double digit rises in violent crime, with Northumbria posting a 95 per cent increase year on year.

Of the other forces, Durham Police recorded a 73 per cent rise; West Yorkshire was up 48 per cent; Avon and Somerset 45 per cent; Dorset 39 per cent and Warwickshire 37 per cent.
*_
_*Elsewhere Humberside, South Yorkshire, Staffordshire, Essex, Hertfordshire, Kent, Wiltshire and Dyfed Powys all saw violence rise by more than a quarter year on year.*_===========


----------



## 2aguy

harmonica said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> harmonica said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> dannyboys said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> idb said:
> 
> 
> 
> You do realise that London isn't Britain...don't you?
> 
> 
> 
> Chicago isn't the United States either asshole!
> Remove every illegal gun in every inner city shithole in the US and the 'gun violence' stats would fall dramatically.
> How Bad Is Violence in Chicago? Depends on Your Race - The Atlantic
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Our murder rate is skewed by just a handful of inner city areas in this country because 70% of all murder occurs in these very small very well defined areas of just 2% of all the counties in the country
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> so we don't want to try to cut this murder rate down?? wherever the murders are??
> they are ok because they are in those areas?
> they still add to the murder rate--you can't pick and choose
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> No...we  want to cut those murder rates down but your way, taking guns from people who don't commit the gun crime doesn't work.    We told you what works....when you catch violent gun offenders committing crimes with guns, you lock them up for 30 years.....if you catch a felon with an illegal gun you lock them up for 30 years....then, like in Japan, the criminals will stop using guns for crime....but when you do as the democrat party does, with their judges and politicians, and you make repeat, violent gun crimes revolving door crimes ....then you don't lower the gun murder rate.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> it does work in Germany, France, UK, NYCity, LA, Chicago
Click to expand...



And Sweden...?

Gun Laws in Sweden

Gun violence in Sweden surpasses neighboring countries, researchers say - Radio Sweden

New research says Sweden sees more deadly shootings per capita than its closest European neighbors, and the low number of gun crimes solved by police here may be part of the reason why.

Sweden experiences four to five times more fatal shootings per capita than Norway and Germany, according to the ongoing research from Malmö University, Karolinska Hospital and Stockholm University. 

The areas with the most shootings are Sweden's major cities: Stockholm, Gothenburg and Malmö. The victims as well as the perpetrators also tend to be younger than those in other the countries.


----------



## 2aguy

harmonica said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> harmonica said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> dannyboys said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> idb said:
> 
> 
> 
> You do realise that London isn't Britain...don't you?
> 
> 
> 
> Chicago isn't the United States either asshole!
> Remove every illegal gun in every inner city shithole in the US and the 'gun violence' stats would fall dramatically.
> How Bad Is Violence in Chicago? Depends on Your Race - The Atlantic
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Our murder rate is skewed by just a handful of inner city areas in this country because 70% of all murder occurs in these very small very well defined areas of just 2% of all the counties in the country
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> so we don't want to try to cut this murder rate down?? wherever the murders are??
> they are ok because they are in those areas?
> they still add to the murder rate--you can't pick and choose
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> No...we  want to cut those murder rates down but your way, taking guns from people who don't commit the gun crime doesn't work.    We told you what works....when you catch violent gun offenders committing crimes with guns, you lock them up for 30 years.....if you catch a felon with an illegal gun you lock them up for 30 years....then, like in Japan, the criminals will stop using guns for crime....but when you do as the democrat party does, with their judges and politicians, and you make repeat, violent gun crimes revolving door crimes ....then you don't lower the gun murder rate.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> it does work in Germany, France, UK, NYCity, LA, Chicago
Click to expand...



You really don't know what you are talking about....


France?


Five things to know about guns in France

*4. Millions of illegal weapons *

France is awash with illegal weapons, with some experts saying that the number of illegal guns may be twice the number of legal ones.

Weapons such as Kalashnikovs, many of which were originally used in the Balkan wars in the 1990s, can be bought for less than 3,000 euros on the black market. 

*Kalashnikovs are the weapon of choice in deadly score-settling between rival drug gangs in the southern port city of Marseille.*

The assault rifles were also the main weapon used in the radical Islamist terror attacks in France in recent years.

The worst single mass shooting took place in the Bataclan concert hall in Paris in November 2015, when gunmen sprayed concert-goers with bullets, killing 89 of them. Dozens more were killed in other attacks the same night in the French capital.


----------



## idb

dannyboys said:


> idb said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yep....young males, raised without fathers to teach them to be adult men, mixed with 3rd world males running the drug gangs, and the British police hamstrung due to lack of manpower, money, and politically correct rules of engagment.....
> 
> London on course for highest number of killings in a decade after 2018 passes 2017 total
> 
> 
> 
> You do realise that London isn't Britain...don't you?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Chicago isn't the United States either asshole!
> Remove every illegal gun in every inner city shithole in the US and the 'gun violence' stats would fall dramatically.
> How Bad Is Violence in Chicago? Depends on Your Race - The Atlantic
Click to expand...

Is that one of them nun secateurs?
TwoTinyGuys starts a thread titled Britain Murders Going To Hit 10 Year High...then links to an article about killings in London.
What are* you* talking about?


----------



## idb

dannyboys said:


> idb said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yep....young males, raised without fathers to teach them to be adult men, mixed with 3rd world males running the drug gangs, and the British police hamstrung due to lack of manpower, money, and politically correct rules of engagment.....
> 
> London on course for highest number of killings in a decade after 2018 passes 2017 total
> 
> 
> 
> You do realise that London isn't Britain...don't you?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Chicago isn't the United States either asshole!
> Remove every illegal gun in every inner city shithole in the US and the 'gun violence' stats would fall dramatically.
> How Bad Is Violence in Chicago? Depends on Your Race - The Atlantic
Click to expand...

Is that one of them nun secateurs?
TwoTinyGuys starts a thread titled Britain Murders Going To Hit 10 Year High...then links to an article about killings in London.
What are* you* talking about?


----------



## idb

dannyboys said:


> idb said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yep....young males, raised without fathers to teach them to be adult men, mixed with 3rd world males running the drug gangs, and the British police hamstrung due to lack of manpower, money, and politically correct rules of engagment.....
> 
> London on course for highest number of killings in a decade after 2018 passes 2017 total
> 
> 
> 
> You do realise that London isn't Britain...don't you?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Chicago isn't the United States either asshole!
> Remove every illegal gun in every inner city shithole in the US and the 'gun violence' stats would fall dramatically.
> How Bad Is Violence in Chicago? Depends on Your Race - The Atlantic
Click to expand...

Is that one of them nun secateurs?
TwoTinyGuys starts a thread titled Britain Murders Going To Hit 10 Year High...then links to an article about killings in London.
What are* you* talking about?


----------



## idb

dannyboys said:


> idb said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yep....young males, raised without fathers to teach them to be adult men, mixed with 3rd world males running the drug gangs, and the British police hamstrung due to lack of manpower, money, and politically correct rules of engagment.....
> 
> London on course for highest number of killings in a decade after 2018 passes 2017 total
> 
> 
> 
> You do realise that London isn't Britain...don't you?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Chicago isn't the United States either asshole!
> Remove every illegal gun in every inner city shithole in the US and the 'gun violence' stats would fall dramatically.
> How Bad Is Violence in Chicago? Depends on Your Race - The Atlantic
Click to expand...

Is that one of them nun secateurs?
TwoTinyGuys starts a thread titled Britain Murders Going To Hit 10 Year High...then links to an article about killings in London.
What are* you* talking about?


----------



## idb

dannyboys said:


> idb said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yep....young males, raised without fathers to teach them to be adult men, mixed with 3rd world males running the drug gangs, and the British police hamstrung due to lack of manpower, money, and politically correct rules of engagment.....
> 
> London on course for highest number of killings in a decade after 2018 passes 2017 total
> 
> 
> 
> You do realise that London isn't Britain...don't you?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Chicago isn't the United States either asshole!
> Remove every illegal gun in every inner city shithole in the US and the 'gun violence' stats would fall dramatically.
> How Bad Is Violence in Chicago? Depends on Your Race - The Atlantic
Click to expand...

Is that one of them nun secateurs?
TwoTinyGuys starts a thread titled Britain Murders Going To Hit 10 Year High...then links to an article about killings in London.
What are* you* talking about?


----------



## idb

dannyboys said:


> idb said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yep....young males, raised without fathers to teach them to be adult men, mixed with 3rd world males running the drug gangs, and the British police hamstrung due to lack of manpower, money, and politically correct rules of engagment.....
> 
> London on course for highest number of killings in a decade after 2018 passes 2017 total
> 
> 
> 
> You do realise that London isn't Britain...don't you?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Chicago isn't the United States either asshole!
> Remove every illegal gun in every inner city shithole in the US and the 'gun violence' stats would fall dramatically.
> How Bad Is Violence in Chicago? Depends on Your Race - The Atlantic
Click to expand...

Is that one of them nun secateurs?
TwoTinyGuys starts a thread titled Britain Murders Going To Hit 10 Year High...then links to an article about killings in London.
What are* you* talking about?


----------



## Tommy Tainant

2aguy said:


> Tommy Tainant said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tommy Tainant said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> harmonica said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> UK--a pro-gun argument................???!!!!!!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Again with the gun murder rate, a rate that has always, always been low in Britain even when they allowed normal people to own guns.   Now, with guns banned and confiscated their gun crime rate is going up....while here, where more Americans own and carry guns, our gun crime and gun murder rate are going down...
> 
> You can't explain that which is why you focus on gun murder...something that was always low in Britain, even with guns.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The gun murderr rate in Britain has always been low because we have never had your gun culture. When they banned handguns everybody thought it was a good idea. And it was. Nobody is agitating for the ban to be lifted. We dont want to become like America.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> No.... the gun murder rate has been low because your criminals don't murder their victims.   They banned handguns and criminals now have more of them.
> 
> You want your innocent people to be increasingly victimized by violent criminals.....you now have that.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You know nothing about the UK.
> 
> Let me explain it to you.
> 
> US - lots of guns,lots of murders
> UK - not many guns,not many murders.
> 
> That is it. You cannot produce one piece of data to challenge that. Not one.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Britain didn't have lots of murders before they banned guns.....   they banned guns and they didn't change their gun murder rate....gun crime, however, keeps going up, showing that gun control is not working.
> 
> Culture of violence: Gun crime goes up by 89% in a decade | Daily Mail Online
> 
> The latest Government figures show that the total number of firearm offences in England and Wales has increased from 5,209 in 1998/99 to 9,865 last year - a rise of 89 per cent.
> 
> The number of people injured or killed by guns, excluding air weapons, has increased from 864 in 1998/99 to a provisional figure of 1,760 in 2008/09, an increase of 104 per cent .
> 
> British Politicians Declare War on Knives
> 
> Firearms are strictly restricted in the U.K., including a near-total ban on handguns. Nevertheless, "_n the 12 months to October 2017, there were 2,500 offences involving guns: a 16 per cent increase on the previous year and a 44 per cent increase on 2014," the London Assembly's Police and Crime Committee noted in January. Criminals, it seems, are not averse to committing crimes—including the illegal acquisition of tools that help them commit more crimes._
> 
> _Gun crime in London increases by 42% - BBC News_
> 
> _Gun crime offences in London surged by 42% in the last year, according to official statistics._
> 
> _And as time goes on, the violence increases...._
> 
> _Violent crime on the rise in every corner of the country, figures suggest_
> 
> _But analysis of the figures force by force, showed the full extent of the problem, with only one constabulary, Nottinghamshire, recording a reduction in violent offences._
> 
> _*The vast majority of police forces actually witnessed double digit rises in violent crime, with Northumbria posting a 95 per cent increase year on year.*_
> 
> _*Of the other forces, Durham Police recorded a 73 per cent rise; West Yorkshire was up 48 per cent; Avon and Somerset 45 per cent; Dorset 39 per cent and Warwickshire 37 per cent.*_
> 
> _*Elsewhere Humberside, South Yorkshire, Staffordshire, Essex, Hertfordshire, Kent, Wiltshire and Dyfed Powys all saw violence rise by more than a quarter year on year.*_===========
Click to expand...

I see that you ignore my point and launch your cutnpaste library. I know why as well. My point cannot be refuted.


----------



## idb

dannyboys said:


> idb said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yep....young males, raised without fathers to teach them to be adult men, mixed with 3rd world males running the drug gangs, and the British police hamstrung due to lack of manpower, money, and politically correct rules of engagment.....
> 
> London on course for highest number of killings in a decade after 2018 passes 2017 total
> 
> 
> 
> You do realise that London isn't Britain...don't you?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Chicago isn't the United States either asshole!
> Remove every illegal gun in every inner city shithole in the US and the 'gun violence' stats would fall dramatically.
> How Bad Is Violence in Chicago? Depends on Your Race - The Atlantic
Click to expand...

Is that one of them nun secateurs?
TwoTinyGuys starts a thread titled Britain Murders Going To Hit 10 Year High...then links to an article about killings in London.
What are* you* talking about?


----------



## idb

dannyboys said:


> idb said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yep....young males, raised without fathers to teach them to be adult men, mixed with 3rd world males running the drug gangs, and the British police hamstrung due to lack of manpower, money, and politically correct rules of engagment.....
> 
> London on course for highest number of killings in a decade after 2018 passes 2017 total
> 
> 
> 
> You do realise that London isn't Britain...don't you?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Chicago isn't the United States either asshole!
> Remove every illegal gun in every inner city shithole in the US and the 'gun violence' stats would fall dramatically.
> How Bad Is Violence in Chicago? Depends on Your Race - The Atlantic
Click to expand...

Is that one of them nun secateurs?
TwoTinyGuys starts a thread titled Britain Murders Going To Hit 10 Year High...then links to an article about killings in London.
What are* you* talking about?


----------



## JoeB131

2aguy said:


> Japan is a police state...yes...you like police states but Americans don't.....



funny, we lock up 2,000,000 people and the police kill 1200 citizens a year.   That strikes me as a police state.  

The Japanese only lock up 67,000 people and it's considered a scandal if the police even take their guns out of the holster.  



2aguy said:


> .they stop their criminals from carrying guns by locking them up for 15 years if they are caught with a gun, multiple guns, more time, bullets in the gun, even more time.....



Wonderful. Let's ban guns and lock up people who have them. Works for me. 

Kind of hard for us to lock up people for having guns if we've declared gun possession a "right", isn't it? 



2aguy said:


> That is our problem, not law abiding people carrying guns for self defense.



Most gun deaths are suicides, domestic violence and accidents in the home...  that's the problem. 

Like your boy in Chicago...  was able to buy a bunch of guns...  because he hadn't been convicted of anything.


----------



## harmonica

2aguy said:


> Tommy Tainant said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tommy Tainant said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> harmonica said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> UK--a pro-gun argument................???!!!!!!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Again with the gun murder rate, a rate that has always, always been low in Britain even when they allowed normal people to own guns.   Now, with guns banned and confiscated their gun crime rate is going up....while here, where more Americans own and carry guns, our gun crime and gun murder rate are going down...
> 
> You can't explain that which is why you focus on gun murder...something that was always low in Britain, even with guns.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The gun murderr rate in Britain has always been low because we have never had your gun culture. When they banned handguns everybody thought it was a good idea. And it was. Nobody is agitating for the ban to be lifted. We dont want to become like America.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> No.... the gun murder rate has been low because your criminals don't murder their victims.   They banned handguns and criminals now have more of them.
> 
> You want your innocent people to be increasingly victimized by violent criminals.....you now have that.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You know nothing about the UK.
> 
> Let me explain it to you.
> 
> US - lots of guns,lots of murders
> UK - not many guns,not many murders.
> 
> That is it. You cannot produce one piece of data to challenge that. Not one.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Britain didn't have lots of murders before they banned guns.....   they banned guns and they didn't change their gun murder rate....gun crime, however, keeps going up, showing that gun control is not working.
> 
> Culture of violence: Gun crime goes up by 89% in a decade | Daily Mail Online
> 
> The latest Government figures show that the total number of firearm offences in England and Wales has increased from 5,209 in 1998/99 to 9,865 last year - a rise of 89 per cent.
> 
> The number of people injured or killed by guns, excluding air weapons, has increased from 864 in 1998/99 to a provisional figure of 1,760 in 2008/09, an increase of 104 per cent .
> 
> British Politicians Declare War on Knives
> 
> Firearms are strictly restricted in the U.K., including a near-total ban on handguns. Nevertheless, "_n the 12 months to October 2017, there were 2,500 offences involving guns: a 16 per cent increase on the previous year and a 44 per cent increase on 2014," the London Assembly's Police and Crime Committee noted in January. Criminals, it seems, are not averse to committing crimes—including the illegal acquisition of tools that help them commit more crimes._
> 
> _Gun crime in London increases by 42% - BBC News_
> 
> _Gun crime offences in London surged by 42% in the last year, according to official statistics._
> 
> _And as time goes on, the violence increases...._
> 
> _Violent crime on the rise in every corner of the country, figures suggest_
> 
> _But analysis of the figures force by force, showed the full extent of the problem, with only one constabulary, Nottinghamshire, recording a reduction in violent offences._
> 
> _*The vast majority of police forces actually witnessed double digit rises in violent crime, with Northumbria posting a 95 per cent increase year on year.*_
> 
> _*Of the other forces, Durham Police recorded a 73 per cent rise; West Yorkshire was up 48 per cent; Avon and Somerset 45 per cent; Dorset 39 per cent and Warwickshire 37 per cent.*_
> 
> _*Elsewhere Humberside, South Yorkshire, Staffordshire, Essex, Hertfordshire, Kent, Wiltshire and Dyfed Powys all saw violence rise by more than a quarter year on year.*_===========
Click to expand...


----------



## dannyboys

idb said:


> dannyboys said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> idb said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yep....young males, raised without fathers to teach them to be adult men, mixed with 3rd world males running the drug gangs, and the British police hamstrung due to lack of manpower, money, and politically correct rules of engagment.....
> 
> London on course for highest number of killings in a decade after 2018 passes 2017 total
> 
> 
> 
> You do realise that London isn't Britain...don't you?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Chicago isn't the United States either asshole!
> Remove every illegal gun in every inner city shithole in the US and the 'gun violence' stats would fall dramatically.
> How Bad Is Violence in Chicago? Depends on Your Race - The Atlantic
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Is that one of them nun secateurs?
> TwoTinyGuys starts a thread titled Britain Murders Going To Hit 10 Year High...then links to an article about killings in London.
> What are* you* talking about?
Click to expand...

You are obviously too fucked up to be functioning properly.
Get some help.


----------



## harmonica

2aguy said:


> harmonica said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> harmonica said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> dannyboys said:
> 
> 
> 
> Chicago isn't the United States either asshole!
> Remove every illegal gun in every inner city shithole in the US and the 'gun violence' stats would fall dramatically.
> How Bad Is Violence in Chicago? Depends on Your Race - The Atlantic
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Our murder rate is skewed by just a handful of inner city areas in this country because 70% of all murder occurs in these very small very well defined areas of just 2% of all the counties in the country
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> so we don't want to try to cut this murder rate down?? wherever the murders are??
> they are ok because they are in those areas?
> they still add to the murder rate--you can't pick and choose
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> No...we  want to cut those murder rates down but your way, taking guns from people who don't commit the gun crime doesn't work.    We told you what works....when you catch violent gun offenders committing crimes with guns, you lock them up for 30 years.....if you catch a felon with an illegal gun you lock them up for 30 years....then, like in Japan, the criminals will stop using guns for crime....but when you do as the democrat party does, with their judges and politicians, and you make repeat, violent gun crimes revolving door crimes ....then you don't lower the gun murder rate.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> it does work in Germany, France, UK, NYCity, LA, Chicago
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> And Sweden...?
> 
> Gun Laws in Sweden
> 
> Gun violence in Sweden surpasses neighboring countries, researchers say - Radio Sweden
> 
> New research says Sweden sees more deadly shootings per capita than its closest European neighbors, and the low number of gun crimes solved by police here may be part of the reason why.
> 
> Sweden experiences four to five times more fatal shootings per capita than Norway and Germany, according to the ongoing research from Malmö University, Karolinska Hospital and Stockholm University.
> 
> The areas with the most shootings are Sweden's major cities: Stockholm, Gothenburg and Malmö. The victims as well as the perpetrators also tend to be younger than those in other the countries.
Click to expand...


----------



## dannyboys

harmonica said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tommy Tainant said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tommy Tainant said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Again with the gun murder rate, a rate that has always, always been low in Britain even when they allowed normal people to own guns.   Now, with guns banned and confiscated their gun crime rate is going up....while here, where more Americans own and carry guns, our gun crime and gun murder rate are going down...
> 
> You can't explain that which is why you focus on gun murder...something that was always low in Britain, even with guns.
> 
> 
> 
> The gun murderr rate in Britain has always been low because we have never had your gun culture. When they banned handguns everybody thought it was a good idea. And it was. Nobody is agitating for the ban to be lifted. We dont want to become like America.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> No.... the gun murder rate has been low because your criminals don't murder their victims.   They banned handguns and criminals now have more of them.
> 
> You want your innocent people to be increasingly victimized by violent criminals.....you now have that.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You know nothing about the UK.
> 
> Let me explain it to you.
> 
> US - lots of guns,lots of murders
> UK - not many guns,not many murders.
> 
> That is it. You cannot produce one piece of data to challenge that. Not one.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Britain didn't have lots of murders before they banned guns.....   they banned guns and they didn't change their gun murder rate....gun crime, however, keeps going up, showing that gun control is not working.
> 
> Culture of violence: Gun crime goes up by 89% in a decade | Daily Mail Online
> 
> The latest Government figures show that the total number of firearm offences in England and Wales has increased from 5,209 in 1998/99 to 9,865 last year - a rise of 89 per cent.
> 
> The number of people injured or killed by guns, excluding air weapons, has increased from 864 in 1998/99 to a provisional figure of 1,760 in 2008/09, an increase of 104 per cent .
> 
> British Politicians Declare War on Knives
> 
> Firearms are strictly restricted in the U.K., including a near-total ban on handguns. Nevertheless, "_n the 12 months to October 2017, there were 2,500 offences involving guns: a 16 per cent increase on the previous year and a 44 per cent increase on 2014," the London Assembly's Police and Crime Committee noted in January. Criminals, it seems, are not averse to committing crimes—including the illegal acquisition of tools that help them commit more crimes._
> 
> _Gun crime in London increases by 42% - BBC News_
> 
> _Gun crime offences in London surged by 42% in the last year, according to official statistics._
> 
> _And as time goes on, the violence increases...._
> 
> _Violent crime on the rise in every corner of the country, figures suggest_
> 
> _But analysis of the figures force by force, showed the full extent of the problem, with only one constabulary, Nottinghamshire, recording a reduction in violent offences._
> 
> _*The vast majority of police forces actually witnessed double digit rises in violent crime, with Northumbria posting a 95 per cent increase year on year.*_
> 
> _*Of the other forces, Durham Police recorded a 73 per cent rise; West Yorkshire was up 48 per cent; Avon and Somerset 45 per cent; Dorset 39 per cent and Warwickshire 37 per cent.*_
> 
> _*Elsewhere Humberside, South Yorkshire, Staffordshire, Essex, Hertfordshire, Kent, Wiltshire and Dyfed Powys all saw violence rise by more than a quarter year on year.*_===========
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...

Your chart includes the number of suicides thus making it bogus ie relating to 'murders' involving guns.


----------



## Skull Pilot

Tommy Tainant said:


> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> dannyboys said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> idb said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yep....young males, raised without fathers to teach them to be adult men, mixed with 3rd world males running the drug gangs, and the British police hamstrung due to lack of manpower, money, and politically correct rules of engagment.....
> 
> London on course for highest number of killings in a decade after 2018 passes 2017 total
> 
> 
> 
> You do realise that London isn't Britain...don't you?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Chicago isn't the United States either asshole!
> Remove every illegal gun in every inner city shithole in the US and the 'gun violence' stats would fall dramatically.
> How Bad Is Violence in Chicago? Depends on Your Race - The Atlantic
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Our murder rate is skewed by just a handful of inner city areas in this country because 70% of all murder occurs in these very small very well defined areas of just 2% of all the counties in the country
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Ok, if you want to play that game then we wont count London,Liverpool and Manchester. You are back in the same position.
Click to expand...


WHat position ?

IDGAF about your murder rate never did. And I don't want to be in your position kneeling in front of some inbred monarch

Gun laws do not lower murder rates never did never will

Murder and homicide rates before and after gun bans - Crime Prevention Research Center


----------



## Skull Pilot

harmonica said:


> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> dannyboys said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> idb said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yep....young males, raised without fathers to teach them to be adult men, mixed with 3rd world males running the drug gangs, and the British police hamstrung due to lack of manpower, money, and politically correct rules of engagment.....
> 
> London on course for highest number of killings in a decade after 2018 passes 2017 total
> 
> 
> 
> You do realise that London isn't Britain...don't you?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Chicago isn't the United States either asshole!
> Remove every illegal gun in every inner city shithole in the US and the 'gun violence' stats would fall dramatically.
> How Bad Is Violence in Chicago? Depends on Your Race - The Atlantic
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Our murder rate is skewed by just a handful of inner city areas in this country because 70% of all murder occurs in these very small very well defined areas of just 2% of all the counties in the country
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> so we don't want to try to cut this murder rate down?? wherever the murders are??
> they are ok because they are in those areas?
> they still add to the murder rate--you can't pick and choose
Click to expand...

No you don't because none of you gun control freaks ever address the very real problem in our inner cities that breed the violence that skews our murder rates.

All you want to talk about is mass shootings (1% of all murder) and you all like to add suicide into your numbers even though it is not a crime,(2/3 of all gun deaths)

And these murders account for 70% of the murder rate but none of you ever mention that or even respond to the many times I have posted this fact and the reasons why these ultra-violent areas exist


----------



## Skull Pilot

Tommy Tainant said:


> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> dannyboys said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> idb said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yep....young males, raised without fathers to teach them to be adult men, mixed with 3rd world males running the drug gangs, and the British police hamstrung due to lack of manpower, money, and politically correct rules of engagment.....
> 
> London on course for highest number of killings in a decade after 2018 passes 2017 total
> 
> 
> 
> You do realise that London isn't Britain...don't you?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Chicago isn't the United States either asshole!
> Remove every illegal gun in every inner city shithole in the US and the 'gun violence' stats would fall dramatically.
> How Bad Is Violence in Chicago? Depends on Your Race - The Atlantic
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Our murder rate is skewed by just a handful of inner city areas in this country because 70% of all murder occurs in these very small very well defined areas of just 2% of all the counties in the country
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Ok, if you want to play that game then we wont count London,Liverpool and Manchester. You are back in the same position.
Click to expand...


Our country is much larger than yours and we see 70% of murders occurring in very small very well defined areas in just 2% of all the counties in the country.  In fact these areas are so concentrated that just a mile away from an area where the murder rate annually is extremely high the murder rate of another neighborhood can be and often is extremely low.

Face it the US has very real and very significant differences from the UK that go far beyond gun laws but you don't know anything about these things and you keep forgetting that most Americans don't give a flying or any other kind of fuck about what you Brits think


----------



## Skull Pilot

JoeB131 said:


> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> 
> Just how the fuck am I supposed to know what murders the UK doesn't count
> 
> I gave you a fucking governemnt publication that says what they do
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah,b ecause I can get you a link that tells me EXACTLY how many murders happen in the UK.
> 
> You just claim that they aren't counting the ones where convictions weren't achieved... which is probably very few of them, the British have something like a 90% clearance rate on murders, because they have so few and each one gets properly investigated.  .
Click to expand...

No you can get a link to how many murders were counted as murders in the UK because they only count the ones that end in a conviction in the courts as the document from the House of Commons clearly states


----------



## Skull Pilot

Tommy Tainant said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> harmonica said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> UK--a pro-gun argument................???!!!!!!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Again with the gun murder rate, a rate that has always, always been low in Britain even when they allowed normal people to own guns.   Now, with guns banned and confiscated their gun crime rate is going up....while here, where more Americans own and carry guns, our gun crime and gun murder rate are going down...
> 
> You can't explain that which is why you focus on gun murder...something that was always low in Britain, even with guns.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The gun murderr rate in Britain has always been low because we have never had your gun culture. When they banned handguns everybody thought it was a good idea. And it was. Nobody is agitating for the ban to be lifted. We dont want to become like America.
Click to expand...


And we sure as shit don;t want to be like the UK
 So why don't you all just mind your own fucking business?


----------



## harmonica

Skull Pilot said:


> harmonica said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> dannyboys said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> idb said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yep....young males, raised without fathers to teach them to be adult men, mixed with 3rd world males running the drug gangs, and the British police hamstrung due to lack of manpower, money, and politically correct rules of engagment.....
> 
> London on course for highest number of killings in a decade after 2018 passes 2017 total
> 
> 
> 
> You do realise that London isn't Britain...don't you?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Chicago isn't the United States either asshole!
> Remove every illegal gun in every inner city shithole in the US and the 'gun violence' stats would fall dramatically.
> How Bad Is Violence in Chicago? Depends on Your Race - The Atlantic
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Our murder rate is skewed by just a handful of inner city areas in this country because 70% of all murder occurs in these very small very well defined areas of just 2% of all the counties in the country
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> so we don't want to try to cut this murder rate down?? wherever the murders are??
> they are ok because they are in those areas?
> they still add to the murder rate--you can't pick and choose
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> No you don't because none of you gun control freaks ever address the very real problem in our inner cities that breed the violence that skews our murder rates.
> 
> All you want to talk about is mass shootings (1% of all murder) and you all like to add suicide into your numbers even though it is not a crime,(2/3 of all gun deaths)
> 
> And these murders account for 70% of the murder rate but none of you ever mention that or even respond to the many times I have posted this fact and the reasons why these ultra-violent areas exist
Click to expand...

1. so we don't want to cut the murders down? even in the inner cities? !?this is bad for all of Amerca

2. you will NEVER change humans--you CANNOT deny this
humans have murdered/raped/robbed since they were humans
you CAN control/restrict/regulate guns which affects murder rates-- [ as seen in Germany, France, UK, Japan, etc ]


----------



## Skull Pilot

Tommy Tainant said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tommy Tainant said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> harmonica said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> UK--a pro-gun argument................???!!!!!!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Again with the gun murder rate, a rate that has always, always been low in Britain even when they allowed normal people to own guns.   Now, with guns banned and confiscated their gun crime rate is going up....while here, where more Americans own and carry guns, our gun crime and gun murder rate are going down...
> 
> You can't explain that which is why you focus on gun murder...something that was always low in Britain, even with guns.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The gun murderr rate in Britain has always been low because we have never had your gun culture. When they banned handguns everybody thought it was a good idea. And it was. Nobody is agitating for the ban to be lifted. We dont want to become like America.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> No.... the gun murder rate has been low because your criminals don't murder their victims.   They banned handguns and criminals now have more of them.
> 
> You want your innocent people to be increasingly victimized by violent criminals.....you now have that.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You know nothing about the UK.
> 
> Let me explain it to you.
> 
> US - lots of guns,lots of murders
> UK - not many guns,not many murders.
> 
> That is it. You cannot produce one piece of data to challenge that. Not one.
Click to expand...


----------



## harmonica

Skull Pilot said:


> Tommy Tainant said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> dannyboys said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> idb said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yep....young males, raised without fathers to teach them to be adult men, mixed with 3rd world males running the drug gangs, and the British police hamstrung due to lack of manpower, money, and politically correct rules of engagment.....
> 
> London on course for highest number of killings in a decade after 2018 passes 2017 total
> 
> 
> 
> You do realise that London isn't Britain...don't you?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Chicago isn't the United States either asshole!
> Remove every illegal gun in every inner city shithole in the US and the 'gun violence' stats would fall dramatically.
> How Bad Is Violence in Chicago? Depends on Your Race - The Atlantic
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Our murder rate is skewed by just a handful of inner city areas in this country because 70% of all murder occurs in these very small very well defined areas of just 2% of all the counties in the country
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Ok, if you want to play that game then we wont count London,Liverpool and Manchester. You are back in the same position.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Our country is much larger than yours and we see 70% of murders occurring in very small very well defined areas in just 2% of all the counties in the country.  In fact these areas are so concentrated that just a mile away from an area where the murder rate annually is extremely high the murder rate of another neighborhood can be and often is extremely low.
> 
> Face it the US has very real and very significant differences from the UK that go far beyond gun laws but you don't know anything about these things and you keep forgetting that most Americans don't give a flying or any other kind of fuck about what you Brits think
Click to expand...

you are tying to deny the UNdeniable
UK murder rate many times lower than the US


----------



## harmonica

UK murder rate many times lower than the US
this CANNOT be denied or twisted/etc


----------



## Skull Pilot

harmonica said:


> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tommy Tainant said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> dannyboys said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> idb said:
> 
> 
> 
> You do realise that London isn't Britain...don't you?
> 
> 
> 
> Chicago isn't the United States either asshole!
> Remove every illegal gun in every inner city shithole in the US and the 'gun violence' stats would fall dramatically.
> How Bad Is Violence in Chicago? Depends on Your Race - The Atlantic
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Our murder rate is skewed by just a handful of inner city areas in this country because 70% of all murder occurs in these very small very well defined areas of just 2% of all the counties in the country
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Ok, if you want to play that game then we wont count London,Liverpool and Manchester. You are back in the same position.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Our country is much larger than yours and we see 70% of murders occurring in very small very well defined areas in just 2% of all the counties in the country.  In fact these areas are so concentrated that just a mile away from an area where the murder rate annually is extremely high the murder rate of another neighborhood can be and often is extremely low.
> 
> Face it the US has very real and very significant differences from the UK that go far beyond gun laws but you don't know anything about these things and you keep forgetting that most Americans don't give a flying or any other kind of fuck about what you Brits think
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> you are tying to deny the UNdeniable
> UK murder rate many times lower than the US
Click to expand...


I never denied it in fact I have said many times the murder rate in the UK has always been lower it was lower BEFORE they passed all their gun laws and gun bans

BUt the 2 countries are not homogeneous and you deny that very relevant fact


----------



## dannyboys

harmonica said:


> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> harmonica said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> dannyboys said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> idb said:
> 
> 
> 
> You do realise that London isn't Britain...don't you?
> 
> 
> 
> Chicago isn't the United States either asshole!
> Remove every illegal gun in every inner city shithole in the US and the 'gun violence' stats would fall dramatically.
> How Bad Is Violence in Chicago? Depends on Your Race - The Atlantic
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Our murder rate is skewed by just a handful of inner city areas in this country because 70% of all murder occurs in these very small very well defined areas of just 2% of all the counties in the country
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> so we don't want to try to cut this murder rate down?? wherever the murders are??
> they are ok because they are in those areas?
> they still add to the murder rate--you can't pick and choose
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> No you don't because none of you gun control freaks ever address the very real problem in our inner cities that breed the violence that skews our murder rates.
> 
> All you want to talk about is mass shootings (1% of all murder) and you all like to add suicide into your numbers even though it is not a crime,(2/3 of all gun deaths)
> 
> And these murders account for 70% of the murder rate but none of you ever mention that or even respond to the many times I have posted this fact and the reasons why these ultra-violent areas exist
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 1. so we don't want to cut the murders down? even in the inner cities? !?this is bad for all of Amerca
> 
> 2. you will NEVER change humans--you CANNOT deny this
> humans have murdered/raped/robbed since they were humans
> you CAN control/restrict/regulate guns which affects murder rates-- [ as seen in Germany, France, UK, Japan, etc ]
Click to expand...

Bonobo had eight fucking years to DO SOMETHING about the endemic inner city shithole gun violence. He sat with his thumb up his ass. WHY? B/c 95% of the violent crimes were/are being committed by negoes AKA his voter base!


----------



## 2aguy

harmonica said:


> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> harmonica said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> dannyboys said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> idb said:
> 
> 
> 
> You do realise that London isn't Britain...don't you?
> 
> 
> 
> Chicago isn't the United States either asshole!
> Remove every illegal gun in every inner city shithole in the US and the 'gun violence' stats would fall dramatically.
> How Bad Is Violence in Chicago? Depends on Your Race - The Atlantic
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Our murder rate is skewed by just a handful of inner city areas in this country because 70% of all murder occurs in these very small very well defined areas of just 2% of all the counties in the country
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> so we don't want to try to cut this murder rate down?? wherever the murders are??
> they are ok because they are in those areas?
> they still add to the murder rate--you can't pick and choose
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> No you don't because none of you gun control freaks ever address the very real problem in our inner cities that breed the violence that skews our murder rates.
> 
> All you want to talk about is mass shootings (1% of all murder) and you all like to add suicide into your numbers even though it is not a crime,(2/3 of all gun deaths)
> 
> And these murders account for 70% of the murder rate but none of you ever mention that or even respond to the many times I have posted this fact and the reasons why these ultra-violent areas exist
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 1. so we don't want to cut the murders down? even in the inner cities? !?this is bad for all of Amerca
> 
> 2. you will NEVER change humans--you CANNOT deny this
> humans have murdered/raped/robbed since they were humans
> you CAN control/restrict/regulate guns which affects murder rates-- [ as seen in Germany, France, UK, Japan, etc ]
Click to expand...



Britain has an increasing gun crime rate, their criminals have guns but don't use them to commit murder as often as democrats in democrat controlled cities do.....France, as my links demonstrated, is awash in illegal guns, more often than not, illegal, fully automatic military weapons...dittos Germany.....and Japan, is a police state where the police have powers that Americans would never allow our police to have....and as I have posted over and over, the democrat party would never go along with locking up violent gun criminals for 15 years for the possession of an illegal gun.....they fight against even 3 years for a criminal who actually uses a gun in a crime...


----------



## 2aguy

harmonica said:


> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tommy Tainant said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> dannyboys said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> idb said:
> 
> 
> 
> You do realise that London isn't Britain...don't you?
> 
> 
> 
> Chicago isn't the United States either asshole!
> Remove every illegal gun in every inner city shithole in the US and the 'gun violence' stats would fall dramatically.
> How Bad Is Violence in Chicago? Depends on Your Race - The Atlantic
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Our murder rate is skewed by just a handful of inner city areas in this country because 70% of all murder occurs in these very small very well defined areas of just 2% of all the counties in the country
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Ok, if you want to play that game then we wont count London,Liverpool and Manchester. You are back in the same position.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Our country is much larger than yours and we see 70% of murders occurring in very small very well defined areas in just 2% of all the counties in the country.  In fact these areas are so concentrated that just a mile away from an area where the murder rate annually is extremely high the murder rate of another neighborhood can be and often is extremely low.
> 
> Face it the US has very real and very significant differences from the UK that go far beyond gun laws but you don't know anything about these things and you keep forgetting that most Americans don't give a flying or any other kind of fuck about what you Brits think
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> you are tying to deny the UNdeniable
> UK murder rate many times lower than the US
Click to expand...



And you know that has nothing to do with their gun control laws, since gun crime rates are going up.....that means, since you obviously don't understand....that criminals in Britain are getting more illegal guns, not less...which means the gun control laws are not working....


----------



## 2aguy

harmonica said:


> UK murder rate many times lower than the US
> this CANNOT be denied or twisted/etc




Skulll stated that was true, I stated it was true......we both have told you that Britain has always had a low gun murder rate......it also spiked the first 10 years after they banned and confiscated guns, then returned to the same level it was at before they banned guns....showing for everyone to see, that gun control has not changed the ability of British criminals to get illegal guns....therefore, it is a failure.


----------



## JoeB131

Skull Pilot said:


> No you can get a link to how many murders were counted as murders in the UK because they only count the ones that end in a conviction in the courts as the document from the House of Commons clearly states



Yup... the Bobbies always get their man... or is that the Mounties? Never mind.  Point being, they have a really, really low murder rate.


----------



## 2aguy

JoeB131 said:


> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> 
> No you can get a link to how many murders were counted as murders in the UK because they only count the ones that end in a conviction in the courts as the document from the House of Commons clearly states
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yup... the Bobbies always get their man... or is that the Mounties? Never mind.  Point being, they have a really, really low murder rate.
Click to expand...



Yes..... again, they have always had a very low murder rate...except for that time when they were murdering Catholics.....but government murder does not interest you....so...

Britain has always had a low murder rate, including a low knife murder rate, a low club murder rate and a low bare hands murder rate.....and also a low gun murder rate.   The problem you guys have is that their gun crime rate, where guns are used to injure, not kill, to rape, and rob....is going up.....and their violent crime rate against law abiding people is going through the roof.....which according to you is not supposed to happen after you ban and confiscate guns.


----------



## Tommy Tainant

2aguy said:


> JoeB131 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> 
> No you can get a link to how many murders were counted as murders in the UK because they only count the ones that end in a conviction in the courts as the document from the House of Commons clearly states
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yup... the Bobbies always get their man... or is that the Mounties? Never mind.  Point being, they have a really, really low murder rate.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Yes..... again, they have always had a very low murder rate...except for that time when they were murdering Catholics.....but government murder does not interest you....so...
> 
> Britain has always had a low murder rate, including a low knife murder rate, a low club murder rate and a low bare hands murder rate.....and also a low gun murder rate.   The problem you guys have is that their gun crime rate, where guns are used to injure, not kill, to rape, and rob....is going up.....and their violent crime rate against law abiding people is going through the roof.....which according to you is not supposed to happen after you ban and confiscate guns.
Click to expand...

US - lots of guns = lots of death
UK - few guns = lot less death

We are not unique. The whole fucking civilised world controls guns and has less death than the US. It really isnt complicated.

We have diverse communites.
We have angry people.
We have poverty.
We have drug problems
We have inequality
We have mental illness
We have violent computer games

All of these are blamed by gun nuts for gun crime.

And yet our gun crime is a fraction of yours.

How could gun control UK have less gun crime than the gun crazy US ?   I just dont understand it .


----------



## 2aguy

Tommy Tainant said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JoeB131 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> 
> No you can get a link to how many murders were counted as murders in the UK because they only count the ones that end in a conviction in the courts as the document from the House of Commons clearly states
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yup... the Bobbies always get their man... or is that the Mounties? Never mind.  Point being, they have a really, really low murder rate.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Yes..... again, they have always had a very low murder rate...except for that time when they were murdering Catholics.....but government murder does not interest you....so...
> 
> Britain has always had a low murder rate, including a low knife murder rate, a low club murder rate and a low bare hands murder rate.....and also a low gun murder rate.   The problem you guys have is that their gun crime rate, where guns are used to injure, not kill, to rape, and rob....is going up.....and their violent crime rate against law abiding people is going through the roof.....which according to you is not supposed to happen after you ban and confiscate guns.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> US - lots of guns = lots of death
> UK - few guns = lot less death
> 
> We are not unique. The whole fucking civilised world controls guns and has less death than the US. It really isnt complicated.
> 
> We have diverse communites.
> We have angry people.
> We have poverty.
> We have drug problems
> We have inequality
> We have mental illness
> We have violent computer games
> 
> All of these are blamed by gun nuts for gun crime.
> 
> And yet our gun crime is a fraction of yours.
> 
> How could gun control UK have less gun crime than the gun crazy US ?   I just dont understand it .
Click to expand...



Gun crime is going up in Britain.  They have extreme gun control including gun banning and confiscation.   Gun murder was always low in Britain, that did not change after the ban, therefore the ban did not create the low gun murder rate.


----------



## Tommy Tainant

2aguy said:


> Tommy Tainant said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JoeB131 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> 
> No you can get a link to how many murders were counted as murders in the UK because they only count the ones that end in a conviction in the courts as the document from the House of Commons clearly states
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yup... the Bobbies always get their man... or is that the Mounties? Never mind.  Point being, they have a really, really low murder rate.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Yes..... again, they have always had a very low murder rate...except for that time when they were murdering Catholics.....but government murder does not interest you....so...
> 
> Britain has always had a low murder rate, including a low knife murder rate, a low club murder rate and a low bare hands murder rate.....and also a low gun murder rate.   The problem you guys have is that their gun crime rate, where guns are used to injure, not kill, to rape, and rob....is going up.....and their violent crime rate against law abiding people is going through the roof.....which according to you is not supposed to happen after you ban and confiscate guns.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> US - lots of guns = lots of death
> UK - few guns = lot less death
> 
> We are not unique. The whole fucking civilised world controls guns and has less death than the US. It really isnt complicated.
> 
> We have diverse communites.
> We have angry people.
> We have poverty.
> We have drug problems
> We have inequality
> We have mental illness
> We have violent computer games
> 
> All of these are blamed by gun nuts for gun crime.
> 
> And yet our gun crime is a fraction of yours.
> 
> How could gun control UK have less gun crime than the gun crazy US ?   I just dont understand it .
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Gun crime is going up in Britain.  They have extreme gun control including gun banning and confiscation.   Gun murder was always low in Britain, that did not change after the ban, therefore the ban did not create the low gun murder rate.
Click to expand...

 The ban made no difference for the majority of people. Nobody owned a gun. I dont know anyone who owns a gun and I never have.Our crime rate is not linked to our gun laws. It is linked to having 20,000 less cops on the beat.

The UK is many times safer than the US because we dont have a gun culture, we dont have gun nuts, gun nuts do not own our politicians and we are not tied to a medieval constitution which guarentees our rights to kill our neighbours over any tiny dispute.


----------



## SweetSue92

Tommy Tainant said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tommy Tainant said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JoeB131 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> 
> No you can get a link to how many murders were counted as murders in the UK because they only count the ones that end in a conviction in the courts as the document from the House of Commons clearly states
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yup... the Bobbies always get their man... or is that the Mounties? Never mind.  Point being, they have a really, really low murder rate.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Yes..... again, they have always had a very low murder rate...except for that time when they were murdering Catholics.....but government murder does not interest you....so...
> 
> Britain has always had a low murder rate, including a low knife murder rate, a low club murder rate and a low bare hands murder rate.....and also a low gun murder rate.   The problem you guys have is that their gun crime rate, where guns are used to injure, not kill, to rape, and rob....is going up.....and their violent crime rate against law abiding people is going through the roof.....which according to you is not supposed to happen after you ban and confiscate guns.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> US - lots of guns = lots of death
> UK - few guns = lot less death
> 
> We are not unique. The whole fucking civilised world controls guns and has less death than the US. It really isnt complicated.
> 
> We have diverse communites.
> We have angry people.
> We have poverty.
> We have drug problems
> We have inequality
> We have mental illness
> We have violent computer games
> 
> All of these are blamed by gun nuts for gun crime.
> 
> And yet our gun crime is a fraction of yours.
> 
> How could gun control UK have less gun crime than the gun crazy US ?   I just dont understand it .
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Gun crime is going up in Britain.  They have extreme gun control including gun banning and confiscation.   Gun murder was always low in Britain, that did not change after the ban, therefore the ban did not create the low gun murder rate.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The ban made no difference for the majority of people. Nobody owned a gun. I dont know anyone who owns a gun and I never have.Our crime rate is not linked to our gun laws. It is linked to having 20,000 less cops on the beat.
> 
> The UK is many times safer than the US because we dont have a gun culture, we dont have gun nuts, gun nuts do not own our politicians and we are not tied to a medieval constitution which guarentees our rights to kill our neighbours over any tiny dispute.
Click to expand...


No, maybe just throw acid in their faces or run them down on the sidewalks.


----------



## Tommy Tainant

SweetSue92 said:


> Tommy Tainant said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tommy Tainant said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JoeB131 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yup... the Bobbies always get their man... or is that the Mounties? Never mind.  Point being, they have a really, really low murder rate.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes..... again, they have always had a very low murder rate...except for that time when they were murdering Catholics.....but government murder does not interest you....so...
> 
> Britain has always had a low murder rate, including a low knife murder rate, a low club murder rate and a low bare hands murder rate.....and also a low gun murder rate.   The problem you guys have is that their gun crime rate, where guns are used to injure, not kill, to rape, and rob....is going up.....and their violent crime rate against law abiding people is going through the roof.....which according to you is not supposed to happen after you ban and confiscate guns.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> US - lots of guns = lots of death
> UK - few guns = lot less death
> 
> We are not unique. The whole fucking civilised world controls guns and has less death than the US. It really isnt complicated.
> 
> We have diverse communites.
> We have angry people.
> We have poverty.
> We have drug problems
> We have inequality
> We have mental illness
> We have violent computer games
> 
> All of these are blamed by gun nuts for gun crime.
> 
> And yet our gun crime is a fraction of yours.
> 
> How could gun control UK have less gun crime than the gun crazy US ?   I just dont understand it .
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Gun crime is going up in Britain.  They have extreme gun control including gun banning and confiscation.   Gun murder was always low in Britain, that did not change after the ban, therefore the ban did not create the low gun murder rate.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The ban made no difference for the majority of people. Nobody owned a gun. I dont know anyone who owns a gun and I never have.Our crime rate is not linked to our gun laws. It is linked to having 20,000 less cops on the beat.
> 
> The UK is many times safer than the US because we dont have a gun culture, we dont have gun nuts, gun nuts do not own our politicians and we are not tied to a medieval constitution which guarentees our rights to kill our neighbours over any tiny dispute.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No, maybe just throw acid in their faces or run them down on the sidewalks.
Click to expand...


Your murder rates are 4 times worse than ours across the board. So shut up and learn.
United Kingdom vs United States: Crime > Violent crime Facts and Stats


----------



## SweetSue92

Tommy Tainant said:


> SweetSue92 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tommy Tainant said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tommy Tainant said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yes..... again, they have always had a very low murder rate...except for that time when they were murdering Catholics.....but government murder does not interest you....so...
> 
> Britain has always had a low murder rate, including a low knife murder rate, a low club murder rate and a low bare hands murder rate.....and also a low gun murder rate.   The problem you guys have is that their gun crime rate, where guns are used to injure, not kill, to rape, and rob....is going up.....and their violent crime rate against law abiding people is going through the roof.....which according to you is not supposed to happen after you ban and confiscate guns.
> 
> 
> 
> US - lots of guns = lots of death
> UK - few guns = lot less death
> 
> We are not unique. The whole fucking civilised world controls guns and has less death than the US. It really isnt complicated.
> 
> We have diverse communites.
> We have angry people.
> We have poverty.
> We have drug problems
> We have inequality
> We have mental illness
> We have violent computer games
> 
> All of these are blamed by gun nuts for gun crime.
> 
> And yet our gun crime is a fraction of yours.
> 
> How could gun control UK have less gun crime than the gun crazy US ?   I just dont understand it .
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Gun crime is going up in Britain.  They have extreme gun control including gun banning and confiscation.   Gun murder was always low in Britain, that did not change after the ban, therefore the ban did not create the low gun murder rate.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The ban made no difference for the majority of people. Nobody owned a gun. I dont know anyone who owns a gun and I never have.Our crime rate is not linked to our gun laws. It is linked to having 20,000 less cops on the beat.
> 
> The UK is many times safer than the US because we dont have a gun culture, we dont have gun nuts, gun nuts do not own our politicians and we are not tied to a medieval constitution which guarentees our rights to kill our neighbours over any tiny dispute.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No, maybe just throw acid in their faces or run them down on the sidewalks.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Your murder rates are 4 times worse than ours across the board. So shut up and learn.
> United Kingdom vs United States: Crime > Violent crime Facts and Stats
Click to expand...


How 'bout jailing people for hate crimes or online bullying?


----------



## Tommy Tainant

SweetSue92 said:


> Tommy Tainant said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SweetSue92 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tommy Tainant said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tommy Tainant said:
> 
> 
> 
> US - lots of guns = lots of death
> UK - few guns = lot less death
> 
> We are not unique. The whole fucking civilised world controls guns and has less death than the US. It really isnt complicated.
> 
> We have diverse communites.
> We have angry people.
> We have poverty.
> We have drug problems
> We have inequality
> We have mental illness
> We have violent computer games
> 
> All of these are blamed by gun nuts for gun crime.
> 
> And yet our gun crime is a fraction of yours.
> 
> How could gun control UK have less gun crime than the gun crazy US ?   I just dont understand it .
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Gun crime is going up in Britain.  They have extreme gun control including gun banning and confiscation.   Gun murder was always low in Britain, that did not change after the ban, therefore the ban did not create the low gun murder rate.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The ban made no difference for the majority of people. Nobody owned a gun. I dont know anyone who owns a gun and I never have.Our crime rate is not linked to our gun laws. It is linked to having 20,000 less cops on the beat.
> 
> The UK is many times safer than the US because we dont have a gun culture, we dont have gun nuts, gun nuts do not own our politicians and we are not tied to a medieval constitution which guarentees our rights to kill our neighbours over any tiny dispute.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No, maybe just throw acid in their faces or run them down on the sidewalks.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Your murder rates are 4 times worse than ours across the board. So shut up and learn.
> United Kingdom vs United States: Crime > Violent crime Facts and Stats
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> How 'bout jailing people for hate crimes or online bullying?
Click to expand...

Absolutely. If you dont want to act in a civilised way you have no place in a civilised society.

The thing is that you need to reform your gun laws and stop the slaughter before tweaking other stuff. #priorities.


----------



## JoeB131

2aguy said:


> Yes..... again, they have always had a very low murder rate...except for that time when they were murdering Catholics.....but government murder does not interest you....so...



Meh, the Catholics probably had it coming...  

Wow, yes, a country where they don't let average citizens own guns has a very low murder rate.. AMAZING.  

then again, you'd probably cut four legs off of a frog, yell "Jump" and conclude that a frog with no legs is deaf.


----------



## JoeB131

Tommy Tainant said:


> The ban made no difference for the majority of people. Nobody owned a gun. I dont know anyone who owns a gun and I never have.Our crime rate is not linked to our gun laws. It is linked to having 20,000 less cops on the beat.
> 
> The UK is many times safer than the US because we dont have a gun culture, we dont have gun nuts, gun nuts do not own our politicians and we are not tied to a medieval constitution which guarentees our rights to kill our neighbours over any tiny dispute.



well said, Tommy.  

The problem with the gun culture is that it's self perpetuating by design. The NRA floods the streets with guns, people like TooTinyGuy get scared and want more guns... and more guns... and more guns.  

The thing is, the Gun Industry has concluded that their prime market are the gun nuts, the 3% of the population that owns 50% of the guns in this country.  

Anyone want to bet that 2AGuy has enough guns to fight off the Zombie Apocalypse?


----------



## Skull Pilot

JoeB131 said:


> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> 
> No you can get a link to how many murders were counted as murders in the UK because they only count the ones that end in a conviction in the courts as the document from the House of Commons clearly states
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yup... the Bobbies always get their man... or is that the Mounties? Never mind.  Point being, they have a really, really low murder rate.
Click to expand...


----------



## Skull Pilot

Tommy Tainant said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tommy Tainant said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JoeB131 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> 
> No you can get a link to how many murders were counted as murders in the UK because they only count the ones that end in a conviction in the courts as the document from the House of Commons clearly states
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yup... the Bobbies always get their man... or is that the Mounties? Never mind.  Point being, they have a really, really low murder rate.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Yes..... again, they have always had a very low murder rate...except for that time when they were murdering Catholics.....but government murder does not interest you....so...
> 
> Britain has always had a low murder rate, including a low knife murder rate, a low club murder rate and a low bare hands murder rate.....and also a low gun murder rate.   The problem you guys have is that their gun crime rate, where guns are used to injure, not kill, to rape, and rob....is going up.....and their violent crime rate against law abiding people is going through the roof.....which according to you is not supposed to happen after you ban and confiscate guns.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> US - lots of guns = lots of death
> UK - few guns = lot less death
> 
> We are not unique. The whole fucking civilised world controls guns and has less death than the US. It really isnt complicated.
> 
> We have diverse communites.
> We have angry people.
> We have poverty.
> We have drug problems
> We have inequality
> We have mental illness
> We have violent computer games
> 
> All of these are blamed by gun nuts for gun crime.
> 
> And yet our gun crime is a fraction of yours.
> 
> How could gun control UK have less gun crime than the gun crazy US ?   I just dont understand it .
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Gun crime is going up in Britain.  They have extreme gun control including gun banning and confiscation.   Gun murder was always low in Britain, that did not change after the ban, therefore the ban did not create the low gun murder rate.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The ban made no difference for the majority of people. Nobody owned a gun. I dont know anyone who owns a gun and I never have.Our crime rate is not linked to our gun laws. It is linked to having 20,000 less cops on the beat.
> 
> The UK is many times safer than the US because we dont have a gun culture, we dont have gun nuts, gun nuts do not own our politicians and we are not tied to a medieval constitution which guarentees our rights to kill our neighbours over any tiny dispute.
Click to expand...


----------



## Skull Pilot

JoeB131 said:


> Tommy Tainant said:
> 
> 
> 
> The ban made no difference for the majority of people. Nobody owned a gun. I dont know anyone who owns a gun and I never have.Our crime rate is not linked to our gun laws. It is linked to having 20,000 less cops on the beat.
> 
> The UK is many times safer than the US because we dont have a gun culture, we dont have gun nuts, gun nuts do not own our politicians and we are not tied to a medieval constitution which guarentees our rights to kill our neighbours over any tiny dispute.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> well said, Tommy.
> 
> The problem with the gun culture is that it's self perpetuating by design. The NRA floods the streets with guns, people like TooTinyGuy get scared and want more guns... and more guns... and more guns.
> 
> The thing is, the Gun Industry has concluded that their prime market are the gun nuts, the 3% of the population that owns 50% of the guns in this country.
> 
> Anyone want to bet that 2AGuy has enough guns to fight off the Zombie Apocalypse?
Click to expand...


----------



## 2aguy

JoeB131 said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yes..... again, they have always had a very low murder rate...except for that time when they were murdering Catholics.....but government murder does not interest you....so...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Meh, the Catholics probably had it coming...
> 
> Wow, yes, a country where they don't let average citizens own guns has a very low murder rate.. AMAZING.
> 
> then again, you'd probably cut four legs off of a frog, yell "Jump" and conclude that a frog with no legs is deaf.
Click to expand...



They let their people have guns, they had a low gun murder rate.  They took guns away from law abiding gun owners and they still have a low gun murder rate, therefore, the laws had no effect on their gun murder rate.

What you can't explain?

They banned and confiscated guns....now their gun crime rate is going up every year.....their violent crime rate is going up every year....you can't explain that since your entire argument is that once you ban guns, the crime rates are supposed to go down, not up.....

Meanwhile, another thing you can't explain, more Americans own and carry guns...our gun murder rate went down 49%, our gun crime rate went down 75%, our violent crime rate went down 72%.....


----------



## 2aguy

JoeB131 said:


> Tommy Tainant said:
> 
> 
> 
> The ban made no difference for the majority of people. Nobody owned a gun. I dont know anyone who owns a gun and I never have.Our crime rate is not linked to our gun laws. It is linked to having 20,000 less cops on the beat.
> 
> The UK is many times safer than the US because we dont have a gun culture, we dont have gun nuts, gun nuts do not own our politicians and we are not tied to a medieval constitution which guarentees our rights to kill our neighbours over any tiny dispute.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> well said, Tommy.
> 
> The problem with the gun culture is that it's self perpetuating by design. The NRA floods the streets with guns, people like TooTinyGuy get scared and want more guns... and more guns... and more guns.
> 
> The thing is, the Gun Industry has concluded that their prime market are the gun nuts, the 3% of the population that owns 50% of the guns in this country.
> 
> Anyone want to bet that 2AGuy has enough guns to fight off the Zombie Apocalypse?
Click to expand...



How much do you want to bet on that?   I could use the money.....


----------



## JoeB131

I know you don't care... malignant narcissists never care about anyone but themselves.... 

I kind of care we have 33,000 gun deaths every year.


----------



## JoeB131

2aguy said:


> They let their people have guns, they had a low gun murder rate. They took guns away from law abiding gun owners and they still have a low gun murder rate, therefore, the laws had no effect on their gun murder rate.



They didn't let people have guns... that was the point. Oh, sure you had some private gun ownership until it was banned, but you didn't have a gun industry pedelling to every tiny-dicked individual and flooding their streets with guns.  

This isn't complicated, 2TinyGuy.  You give people guns, you have lots of gun murders.


----------



## 2aguy

JoeB131 said:


> I know you don't care... malignant narcissists never care about anyone but themselves....
> 
> I kind of care we have 33,000 gun deaths every year.



Gun murder in 2016....11,004

Expanded Homicide Data Table 4

Gun Suicide.....22,938


Non gun suicides are just about the same number as gun suicides......and yet you don't care about those.

Since gun suicide is the biggest number in gun deaths, and guns have nothing to do with that, you keep putting suicides in with gun deaths.... to make that number bigger.

Meanwhile, the Centers for Disease Control puts the number of defensive, life saving gun uses at 1.1 million, while the Department of Justice puts the number of defensive, life saving gun uses at 1.5 million....

Can you tell which number is bigger?


----------



## 2aguy

JoeB131 said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> They let their people have guns, they had a low gun murder rate. They took guns away from law abiding gun owners and they still have a low gun murder rate, therefore, the laws had no effect on their gun murder rate.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> They didn't let people have guns... that was the point. Oh, sure you had some private gun ownership until it was banned, but you didn't have a gun industry pedelling to every tiny-dicked individual and flooding their streets with guns.
> 
> This isn't complicated, 2TinyGuy.  You give people guns, you have lots of gun murders.
Click to expand...



Except for 25 years of actual experience of more people with more guns and the gun murder rate going down 49%...how do you explain that?

More people with more guns and the gun crime rate going down 75%....how do you explain that?

More people with more guns and the violent crime rate going down 72%...how do you explain that?

Britain banned and confiscated guns from law abiding gun owners.....gun crime up all across Britain, as is violent crime.....how do you explain that?

We went from 200 million guns in private hands in the 1990s and 4.7 million people carrying guns for self defense in 1997...to close to 400-600 million guns in private hands and over 17.25  million people carrying guns for self defense in 2018...guess what happened...


--* gun murder down 49%*

*--gun crime down 75%*

*--violent crime down 72%*

Gun Homicide Rate Down 49% Since 1993 Peak; Public Unaware

Compared with 1993, the peak of U.S. gun homicides, the firearm homicide rate was 49% lower in 2010, and there were fewer deaths, even though the nation’s population grew. The victimization rate for other violent crimes with a firearm—assaults, robberies and sex crimes—was 75% lower in 2011 than in 1993. Violent non-fatal crime victimization overall (with or without a firearm) also is down markedly (72%) over two decades.


----------



## idb

dannyboys said:


> idb said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> dannyboys said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> idb said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yep....young males, raised without fathers to teach them to be adult men, mixed with 3rd world males running the drug gangs, and the British police hamstrung due to lack of manpower, money, and politically correct rules of engagment.....
> 
> London on course for highest number of killings in a decade after 2018 passes 2017 total
> 
> 
> 
> You do realise that London isn't Britain...don't you?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Chicago isn't the United States either asshole!
> Remove every illegal gun in every inner city shithole in the US and the 'gun violence' stats would fall dramatically.
> How Bad Is Violence in Chicago? Depends on Your Race - The Atlantic
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Is that one of them nun secateurs?
> TwoTinyGuys starts a thread titled Britain Murders Going To Hit 10 Year High...then links to an article about killings in London.
> What are* you* talking about?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You are obviously too fucked up to be functioning properly.
> Get some help.
Click to expand...

I thought it was such a good point it needed repeating!


----------



## JoeB131

2aguy said:


> Gun murder in 2016....11,004



Gun Homicides. 

2016: 14,415
2015: 12,974
2014: 10,945

Guns in the United States — Firearms, gun law and gun control



2aguy said:


> Except for 25 years of actual experience of more people with more guns and the gun murder rate going down 49%...how do you explain that?



It's not. It's going up as I just demonstrated.


----------



## 2aguy

JoeB131 said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Gun murder in 2016....11,004
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Gun Homicides.
> 
> 2016: 14,415
> 2015: 12,974
> 2014: 10,945
> 
> Guns in the United States — Firearms, gun law and gun control
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Except for 25 years of actual experience of more people with more guns and the gun murder rate going down 49%...how do you explain that?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> It's not. It's going up as I just demonstrated.
Click to expand...


The gun murder rate in our democrat party cities went up starting in 2015-2016 because obama, the ACLU, and Black Lives Matter targeted the police using the Department of Justice.....they created the Ferguson Effect, causing the police in those cities to back up pro-active police work, which allowed criminals to carry guns unmolested by the police....increasing the gun murder rate.    As of 2017, with Trump using the Department of Justice to prosecute gun criminals at the federal level, the Ferguson Effect is receding......another disaster created by obama that Trump has had to fix.....


First....the FBI tables....

Expanded Homicide Data Table 8

2017....10,982

2016....11.138
.......................2015,2016 the years of the obama, black lives matter Ferguson Effect on police.....
2015....9,778

2014....8,312

2013....8,454

*The Ferguson Effect....*

Hard Data, Hollow Protests

*The reason for the current increase is what I have called the Ferguson Effect. *

Cops are backing off of proactive policing in high-crime minority neighborhoods, and criminals are becoming emboldened. 

Having been told incessantly by politicians, the media, and Black Lives Matter activists that they are bigoted for getting out of their cars and questioning someone loitering on a known drug corner at 2 AM, many officers are instead just driving by. Such stops are discretionary; cops don’t have to make them. And when political elites demonize the police for just such proactive policing, we shouldn’t be surprised when cops get the message and do less of it. 

*Seventy-two percent of the nation’s officers say that they and their colleagues are now less willing to stop and question suspicious persons, according to a Pew Research poll released in January. The reason is the persistent anti-cop climate. *

Four studies came out in 2016 alone rebutting the charge that police shootings are racially biased. If there is a bias in police shootings, it works in favor of blacks and against whites. That truth has not stopped the ongoing demonization of the police—including, now, by many of the country’s ignorant professional athletes. The toll will be felt, as always, in the inner city, by the thousands of law-abiding people there who desperately want more police protection.


----------



## JoeB131

2aguy said:


> The gun murder rate in our democrat party cities went up starting in 2015-2016 because obama, the ACLU, and Black Lives Matter targeted the police using the Department of Justice.....they created the Ferguson Effect, causing the police in those cities to back up pro-active police work, which allowed criminals to carry guns unmolested by the police...



well, funny thing....  

How could there be a Ferguson effect when the kids who were being shot were unarmed?  It would seem to me that shooting unarmed black kids wouldn't discourage any crooks from carrying guns...  

Yeah, some 'targeting". the only two cops who've gone to jail for misconduct are Slager and Van Dyke...  and you had to catch those assholes on video shooting people and then lying about it.  

No, the reason why gun murders are spiking is because the NRA got most gun laws overturned, flooding our streets with more guns. Probably didn't help that during the Obama years, they were screaming to the gun nuts, "OBAMA IS GOING TO TAKE YOUR GUNS!!!" and flooding the market further.


----------



## 2aguy

JoeB131 said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> The gun murder rate in our democrat party cities went up starting in 2015-2016 because obama, the ACLU, and Black Lives Matter targeted the police using the Department of Justice.....they created the Ferguson Effect, causing the police in those cities to back up pro-active police work, which allowed criminals to carry guns unmolested by the police...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> well, funny thing....
> 
> How could there be a Ferguson effect when the kids who were being shot were unarmed?  It would seem to me that shooting unarmed black kids wouldn't discourage any crooks from carrying guns...
> 
> Yeah, some 'targeting". the only two cops who've gone to jail for misconduct are Slager and Van Dyke...  and you had to catch those assholes on video shooting people and then lying about it.
> 
> No, the reason why gun murders are spiking is because the NRA got most gun laws overturned, flooding our streets with more guns. Probably didn't help that during the Obama years, they were screaming to the gun nuts, "OBAMA IS GOING TO TAKE YOUR GUNS!!!" and flooding the market further.
Click to expand...



You keep saying things that are wrong, and you say them like you believe them.....

Read the article....the Ferguson Effect is real, and we are just now recovering from it....thanks to Trump using the Department of Justice to target gun criminals, and not the police...


----------



## JoeB131

2aguy said:


> You keep saying things that are wrong, and you say them like you believe them.....
> 
> Read the article....the Ferguson Effect is real, and we are just now recovering from it....thanks to Trump using the Department of Justice to target gun criminals, and not the police...



Yes, throwing some people in prison for minor gun possession isn't really solving the problem, since gun murders continue to climb.  Did you miss all the mass shootings?  The rest of us haven't.


----------



## 2aguy

JoeB131 said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> You keep saying things that are wrong, and you say them like you believe them.....
> 
> Read the article....the Ferguson Effect is real, and we are just now recovering from it....thanks to Trump using the Department of Justice to target gun criminals, and not the police...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, throwing some people in prison for minor gun possession isn't really solving the problem, since gun murders continue to climb.  Did you miss all the mass shootings?  The rest of us haven't.
Click to expand...


No...democrat judges, prosecutors and politicians are letting the criminals caught with illegal guns out of jail in under 3 year.....they then go on to get another illegal gun and murder people...Japan fixed that problem by putting a 10 year sentence on illegal gun possession, and 15 for more than one gun, with add ons if you also have bullets...we need to do that....jail is a revolving door for violent gun offenders and that, not law abiding gun owners, is driving the murder rate.

Total number killed in mass public shootings in2016.... 71, total in 2017....117.... total deaths falling off ladders?   300.   Car accidents...over 38,000, poison..over 1,000......  

Times crimes are stopped by Americans using their legal guns...1.1 million times a year...according to the CDC.....


----------



## Vagabond63

BasicHumanUnit said:


> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Prove it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *DISPROVE IT*
Click to expand...


Onus Probandi


----------



## BasicHumanUnit

Vagabond63 said:


> Onus Probandi



Oh yeah?, I'll do ya one better.....

לזיין אותך


----------



## Vagabond63

BasicHumanUnit said:


> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Onus Probandi
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oh yeah?, I'll do ya one better.....
> 
> לזיין אותך
Click to expand...


So that's a frank admission you can't prove your assertions, so are reduced to mindless insults in Israeli. OK, thanks for taking part.


----------



## harmonica

and STILL four times lower than the US


----------



## BasicHumanUnit

Vagabond63 said:


> So that's a frank admission you can't prove your assertions, so are reduced to mindless insults in Israeli. OK, thanks for taking part.



I often respond like that,...when I realize I'm arguing with an imbecile.
Total waste of time.

Go twaddle yourself.  

Oh, and TRY not to get shot, stabbed, acid splashed, run over etc etc etc in your UK "safe space"


----------



## BasicHumanUnit

harmonica said:


> and STILL four times lower than the US



Considering there's 7 times less people....you kinda sorta just proved the UK is a VERY dangerous place, and the US is safer statistically.   oops.


----------



## Vagabond63

BasicHumanUnit said:


> I often respond like that,...when I realize I'm arguing with an imbecile.
> Total waste of time...



Well at least you are honest enough to admit you are an imbecile and a total waste of time. Bye.


----------



## BasicHumanUnit

Typical lyin sack-o-shit leftist jackass.

You leftist dimbulbs are so conceited you think that all you have to do is post some garbage like....

"Oh, so at least you admit"....or "So you are saying"....blah blah blah.....

And in your self absorbed pea brains THAT makes it so?   Pathetic.

Then, when you can't handle the heat.....you RUN  for your forum Safe Spaces.....
99% of the use of ignore at this forum is Snowflake leftists who need a woobi, a pacifier and a safe zone.


----------



## Skull Pilot

BasicHumanUnit said:


> Typical lyin sack-o-shit leftist jackass.
> 
> You leftist dimbulbs are so conceited you think that all you have to do is post some garbage like....
> 
> "Oh, so at least you admit"....or "So you are saying"....blah blah blah.....
> 
> And in your self absorbed pea brains THAT makes it so?   Pathetic.



And no one here really cares what you Brits think.

Shit we fought a war to get away from you wankers


----------



## 2aguy

harmonica said:


> and STILL four times lower than the US




It was always 4 X lower than the U.S........and it didn't go lower after they banned and confiscated guns......so gun control had no effect on their gun murder rate since British criminals do not choose to murder their victims with or without guns.....  and yet that is now changing as their criminals are becoming more and more violent.


----------



## Vagabond63

BasicHumanUnit said:


> Typical lyin sack-o-shit leftist jackass.
> 
> You leftist dimbulbs are so conceited you think that all you have to do is post some garbage like....
> 
> "Oh, so at least you admit"....or "So you are saying"....blah blah blah.....
> 
> And in your self absorbed pea brains THAT makes it so?   Pathetic.
> 
> Then, when you can't handle the heat.....you RUN  for your forum Safe Spaces.....
> 99% of the use of ignore at this forum is Snowflake leftists who need a woobi, a pacifier and a safe zone.



Ignore you, whyever should I do that? Your petulant rants just serve to continually demonstrate your lack of mental acuity and are a comic distraction for me. 

Interesting that 99% of the people you "interact" with on this forum put you on ignore; I suspect they aren't the ones with a problem.


----------



## Vagabond63

Quick response to why the gun crime rate went up after 1996:

"In fact, for the next four years gun crime continued to increase, by about 105 per cent over that period.”

But that doesn’t mean it was a failure. The reason gun crime continued to rise was because the definition was too wide-ranging; it included everything and anything, every single report where a victim reported that a gun was used, even if that gun was never fired, even if it was a replica, or a fake, or even a toy. So by 2003, the laws were refined.

The use of air weapons and pellet guns, which made up a large number of gun crime complaints, was taken out of the Firearms Act and put under the auspices of the new Anti-Social Behaviour Act 2003, which meant gun crime figures purely under their Firearms Act definition began to decrease markedly thanks to reclassification taking air weapons out of the equation.

Squires says: “In fact, gun crime began to decrease for about 10 or 12 years after that, and it’s only in the last two years that we’ve seen it start to creep up again.”

And regarding guns in the hands of criminals:

For the period 1 April, 2016 to 31 March 2017, the number of guns Nabis can say were in criminal hands in England, Scotland and Wales was 322.

Which, give or take, is a little less than the 331 mass shootings officially recorded in America this year alone, where legal civilian gun ownership amounts to 265 million firearms.

Does gun control work in the UK? It’s a case of you do the maths.

Firearms Act: Twenty years on, has it made a difference?


----------



## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> Quick response to why the gun crime rate went up after 1996:
> 
> "In fact, for the next four years gun crime continued to increase, by about 105 per cent over that period.”
> 
> But that doesn’t mean it was a failure. The reason gun crime continued to rise was because the definition was too wide-ranging; it included everything and anything, every single report where a victim reported that a gun was used, even if that gun was never fired, even if it was a replica, or a fake, or even a toy. So by 2003, the laws were refined.
> 
> The use of air weapons and pellet guns, which made up a large number of gun crime complaints, was taken out of the Firearms Act and put under the auspices of the new Anti-Social Behaviour Act 2003, which meant gun crime figures purely under their Firearms Act definition began to decrease markedly thanks to reclassification taking air weapons out of the equation.
> 
> Squires says: “In fact, gun crime began to decrease for about 10 or 12 years after that, and it’s only in the last two years that we’ve seen it start to creep up again.”
> 
> And regarding guns in the hands of criminals:
> 
> For the period 1 April, 2016 to 31 March 2017, the number of guns Nabis can say were in criminal hands in England, Scotland and Wales was 322.
> 
> Which, give or take, is a little less than the 331 mass shootings officially recorded in America this year alone, where legal civilian gun ownership amounts to 265 million firearms.
> 
> Does gun control work in the UK? It’s a case of you do the maths.
> 
> Firearms Act: Twenty years on, has it made a difference?




There were not 331 mass shootings in America, you doofus.   Talk about scamming with numbers....

Gun crime is going up in Britain....after you banned and confiscated guns....you can't hide that fact, you need to use the always low gun murder rate to hide that fact......your criminals are using guns more, your police are under attack by left wing activists more and more...you have violent males both domestic and foreign.....   you are about to fall into the abyss.....have fun with that....


----------



## Vagabond63

2aguy said:


> There were not 331 mass shootings in America, you doofus. Talk about scamming with numbers....



The price of a quick reply I suppose, I just copied the article and assumed the data supplied by the journalist was accurate, you are correct, there were not 331 mass shootings in America in 2017, there were in fact 427.

Mass Shooting Tracker

Oh, and it appears there have been 403 in 2018 so far, have a happy Christmas.


----------



## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> There were not 331 mass shootings in America, you doofus. Talk about scamming with numbers....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The price of a quick reply I suppose, I just copied the article and assumed the data supplied by the journalist was accurate, you are correct, there were not 331 mass shootings in America in 2017, there were in fact 427.
> 
> Mass Shooting Tracker
> 
> Oh, and it appears there have been 403 in 2018 so far, have a happy Christmas.
Click to expand...



Wrong moron....   the mass shooting trackers is an anti-gun extremist site that uses a suicide in an school parking lot that had been closed for months as a school shooting.....  if you want an actual list of mass public shootings, according to the actual definition then you need to use Mother Jones...

The mass shooting tracker takes gang members shooting each other over a dice game at a party as a mass shooting....sorry, that isn't the case.....and they also include shootings where no one is injured.....you moron.

US mass shootings, 1982-2018: Data from Mother Jones’ investigation


----------



## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> There were not 331 mass shootings in America, you doofus. Talk about scamming with numbers....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The price of a quick reply I suppose, I just copied the article and assumed the data supplied by the journalist was accurate, you are correct, there were not 331 mass shootings in America in 2017, there were in fact 427.
> 
> Mass Shooting Tracker
> 
> Oh, and it appears there have been 403 in 2018 so far, have a happy Christmas.
Click to expand...



Mass shooting Tracker also includes domestic violence....which are not mass public shootings....but go ahead, ignore the actual violence happening on an increasing level in Britain.....  that country is turning into a cesspool while gun crime in the states is down 75%.....and gun murder is down 49%....


----------



## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> There were not 331 mass shootings in America, you doofus. Talk about scamming with numbers....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The price of a quick reply I suppose, I just copied the article and assumed the data supplied by the journalist was accurate, you are correct, there were not 331 mass shootings in America in 2017, there were in fact 427.
> 
> Mass Shooting Tracker
> 
> Oh, and it appears there have been 403 in 2018 so far, have a happy Christmas.
Click to expand...



The very first shooting...gang shooting at a bar...nice try doofus.  Second story, mass shooting tracker.....gang drive by shooting....another crime that isn't a mass public shooting....


----------



## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> There were not 331 mass shootings in America, you doofus. Talk about scamming with numbers....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The price of a quick reply I suppose, I just copied the article and assumed the data supplied by the journalist was accurate, you are correct, there were not 331 mass shootings in America in 2017, there were in fact 427.
> 
> Mass Shooting Tracker
> 
> Oh, and it appears there have been 403 in 2018 so far, have a happy Christmas.
Click to expand...



Yes....keep ignoring the growing violent crime in Britain....

In peaceful Britain, the police now need to deploy heavily armed coppers .........

Toting guns, ramming mopeds. This is no way to build trust in our police | Roger Graef

n the wild west, a Colt single-action revolver was known as “the peacemaker”. The Metropolitan police commissioner, Cressida Dick, hopes for the same effect by proposing to deploy armed officers on foot patrol in areas plagued by knife crime and other violence. But might this make a bad situation worse?
-----

The return of what is known as “slow rioting”, in which police cars are attacked by crowds of young people, is a worrying indication of the current attitude towards police among that age group. They are most vulnerable to violence because they are on the streets more than the rest of us. A crowd of youths attacking Durham police trying to help a girl at a bus stop has gone viral and will worry police around the country as well as the rest of us.


----------



## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> Quick response to why the gun crime rate went up after 1996:
> 
> "In fact, for the next four years gun crime continued to increase, by about 105 per cent over that period.”
> 
> But that doesn’t mean it was a failure. The reason gun crime continued to rise was because the definition was too wide-ranging; it included everything and anything, every single report where a victim reported that a gun was used, even if that gun was never fired, even if it was a replica, or a fake, or even a toy. So by 2003, the laws were refined.
> 
> The use of air weapons and pellet guns, which made up a large number of gun crime complaints, was taken out of the Firearms Act and put under the auspices of the new Anti-Social Behaviour Act 2003, which meant gun crime figures purely under their Firearms Act definition began to decrease markedly thanks to reclassification taking air weapons out of the equation.
> 
> Squires says: “In fact, gun crime began to decrease for about 10 or 12 years after that, and it’s only in the last two years that we’ve seen it start to creep up again.”
> 
> And regarding guns in the hands of criminals:
> 
> For the period 1 April, 2016 to 31 March 2017, the number of guns Nabis can say were in criminal hands in England, Scotland and Wales was 322.
> 
> Which, give or take, is a little less than the 331 mass shootings officially recorded in America this year alone, where legal civilian gun ownership amounts to 265 million firearms.
> 
> Does gun control work in the UK? It’s a case of you do the maths.
> 
> Firearms Act: Twenty years on, has it made a difference?




Yep...increasing gun crime....

Gun crime in London rises by 42%

Gun crime offences in London surged by 42% in the last year, according to official statistics.

The Met Police's figures showed there were 2,544 gun crime offences from April 2016 to April 2017 compared to 1,793 offences from 2015 until 2016.

Knife crime also increased by 24% with 12,074 recorded offences from 2016 to 2017.


----------



## HenryBHough

Ya gotta remember that London is now a Muslim semi-country so normal statistical methodology no longer applies.


----------



## 2aguy

HenryBHough said:


> Ya gotta remember that London is now a Muslim semi-country so normal statistical methodology no longer applies.



As England becomes more Sharia compliant...will they even be allowed to use the internet?


----------



## HenryBHough

2aguy said:


> As England becomes more Sharia compliant...will they even be allowed to use the internet?



On the  upside, if that happens Tainted Tommy will go the way of Fakey Jakey.


----------



## Vagabond63

2aguy said:


> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> There were not 331 mass shootings in America, you doofus. Talk about scamming with numbers....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The price of a quick reply I suppose, I just copied the article and assumed the data supplied by the journalist was accurate, you are correct, there were not 331 mass shootings in America in 2017, there were in fact 427.
> 
> Mass Shooting Tracker
> 
> Oh, and it appears there have been 403 in 2018 so far, have a happy Christmas.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Wrong moron....   the mass shooting trackers is an anti-gun extremist site that uses a suicide in an school parking lot that had been closed for months as a school shooting.....  if you want an actual list of mass public shootings, according to the actual definition then you need to use Mother Jones...
> 
> The mass shooting tracker takes gang members shooting each other over a dice game at a party as a mass shooting....sorry, that isn't the case.....and they also include shootings where no one is injured.....you moron.
> 
> US mass shootings, 1982-2018: Data from Mother Jones’ investigation
Click to expand...


A mass shooting is a mass shooting, regardless of who perpetrates it or the circumstances involved. Mass Shooting Tracker uses the definition of 4 or more people killed or injured in any given shooting event, which is as reasonable as the FBI definition of Mass Murder; as they state on their site,

"For instance, in 2012 Travis Steed and others shot 18 people total. Miraculously, he only killed one. Under the incorrect definition used by the media and the FBI, that event would not be considered a mass shooting! Arguing that 18 people shot during one event is not a mass shooting is absurd."

I also found this relevant to the discussion, also from their site,

"Besides the clarity provided by tracking mass shootings this way, another benefit is that it removes the factor of our miraculous modern medical care system from the equation. The gun lobby benefits from our tremendous ability to save those who would otherwise die, even though those gun shot victims are still just as shot and will never be the same. The NRA evades the gigantic costs of gun injuries to society and shifts the burden to taxpayers who often pay the costs for the medical care of the wounded."

Bear in mind also that a "gang member" who has yet to commit a crime is technically a law abiding citizen of your country who has a "right to bear arms".

Even looking at Mother Jones' investigation data, there have been 88 mass shooting in America since 1996, whereas in the UK there has been 1. Gun control works for us in the UK, thanks.


----------



## Vagabond63

2aguy said:


> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> There were not 331 mass shootings in America, you doofus. Talk about scamming with numbers....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The price of a quick reply I suppose, I just copied the article and assumed the data supplied by the journalist was accurate, you are correct, there were not 331 mass shootings in America in 2017, there were in fact 427.
> 
> Mass Shooting Tracker
> 
> Oh, and it appears there have been 403 in 2018 so far, have a happy Christmas.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Mass shooting Tracker also includes domestic violence....which are not mass public shootings....but go ahead, ignore the actual violence happening on an increasing level in Britain.....  that country is turning into a cesspool while gun crime in the states is down 75%.....and gun murder is down 49%....
Click to expand...


I'll respond to this when I stop laughing.


----------



## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vagabond63 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> There were not 331 mass shootings in America, you doofus. Talk about scamming with numbers....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The price of a quick reply I suppose, I just copied the article and assumed the data supplied by the journalist was accurate, you are correct, there were not 331 mass shootings in America in 2017, there were in fact 427.
> 
> Mass Shooting Tracker
> 
> Oh, and it appears there have been 403 in 2018 so far, have a happy Christmas.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Wrong moron....   the mass shooting trackers is an anti-gun extremist site that uses a suicide in an school parking lot that had been closed for months as a school shooting.....  if you want an actual list of mass public shootings, according to the actual definition then you need to use Mother Jones...
> 
> The mass shooting tracker takes gang members shooting each other over a dice game at a party as a mass shooting....sorry, that isn't the case.....and they also include shootings where no one is injured.....you moron.
> 
> US mass shootings, 1982-2018: Data from Mother Jones’ investigation
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> A mass shooting is a mass shooting, regardless of who perpetrates it or the circumstances involved. Mass Shooting Tracker uses the definition of 4 or more people killed or injured in any given shooting event, which is as reasonable as the FBI definition of Mass Murder; as they state on their site,
> 
> "For instance, in 2012 Travis Steed and others shot 18 people total. Miraculously, he only killed one. Under the incorrect definition used by the media and the FBI, that event would not be considered a mass shooting! Arguing that 18 people shot during one event is not a mass shooting is absurd."
> 
> I also found this relevant to the discussion, also from their site,
> 
> "Besides the clarity provided by tracking mass shootings this way, another benefit is that it removes the factor of our miraculous modern medical care system from the equation. The gun lobby benefits from our tremendous ability to save those who would otherwise die, even though those gun shot victims are still just as shot and will never be the same. The NRA evades the gigantic costs of gun injuries to society and shifts the burden to taxpayers who often pay the costs for the medical care of the wounded."
> 
> Bear in mind also that a "gang member" who has yet to commit a crime is technically a law abiding citizen of your country who has a "right to bear arms".
> 
> Even looking at Mother Jones' investigation data, there have been 88 mass shooting in America since 1996, whereas in the UK there has been 1. Gun control works for us in the UK, thanks.
Click to expand...



No...it isn't.... a mass public shooting is an individual walking into a public space to murder innocent people, without any other under lying crime.  Gang members shooting each other at a party is not the same threat to the public that a mass public shooter is which is why the definition is different.


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## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> 2aguy said:
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> Vagabond63 said:
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> 2aguy said:
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> There were not 331 mass shootings in America, you doofus. Talk about scamming with numbers....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The price of a quick reply I suppose, I just copied the article and assumed the data supplied by the journalist was accurate, you are correct, there were not 331 mass shootings in America in 2017, there were in fact 427.
> 
> Mass Shooting Tracker
> 
> Oh, and it appears there have been 403 in 2018 so far, have a happy Christmas.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Mass shooting Tracker also includes domestic violence....which are not mass public shootings....but go ahead, ignore the actual violence happening on an increasing level in Britain.....  that country is turning into a cesspool while gun crime in the states is down 75%.....and gun murder is down 49%....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I'll respond to this when I stop laughing.
Click to expand...



Off your meds again?   Your Dr. should adjust your meds so you won't have fits of emotion....


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## Vagabond63

2aguy said:


> No...it isn't.... a mass public shooting...



Two things, I said "mass shooting", not "mass public shooting" whatever difference that makes as uncontrolled availability makes both "mass shootings" and "mass public shootings" more prevalent, as I've demonstrated, whatever metric you chose to use. Secondly there is no standard definition of "mass shooting", something the gun lobby is keen to prevent.


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## Vagabond63

2aguy said:


> Vagabond63 said:
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> 2aguy said:
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> Vagabond63 said:
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> 2aguy said:
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> 
> 
> There were not 331 mass shootings in America, you doofus. Talk about scamming with numbers....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The price of a quick reply I suppose, I just copied the article and assumed the data supplied by the journalist was accurate, you are correct, there were not 331 mass shootings in America in 2017, there were in fact 427.
> 
> Mass Shooting Tracker
> 
> Oh, and it appears there have been 403 in 2018 so far, have a happy Christmas.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Mass shooting Tracker also includes domestic violence....which are not mass public shootings....but go ahead, ignore the actual violence happening on an increasing level in Britain.....  that country is turning into a cesspool while gun crime in the states is down 75%.....and gun murder is down 49%....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I'll respond to this when I stop laughing.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Off your meds again?   Your Dr. should adjust your meds so you won't have fits of emotion....
Click to expand...


Still laughing... Oh fun fact for you, the Muslim population of the UK is something in the order of 6% of the population, we've a long way to go before we're "taken over".


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## 2aguy

Vagabond63 said:


> 2aguy said:
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> Vagabond63 said:
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> 2aguy said:
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> Vagabond63 said:
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> 2aguy said:
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> 
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> There were not 331 mass shootings in America, you doofus. Talk about scamming with numbers....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The price of a quick reply I suppose, I just copied the article and assumed the data supplied by the journalist was accurate, you are correct, there were not 331 mass shootings in America in 2017, there were in fact 427.
> 
> Mass Shooting Tracker
> 
> Oh, and it appears there have been 403 in 2018 so far, have a happy Christmas.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Mass shooting Tracker also includes domestic violence....which are not mass public shootings....but go ahead, ignore the actual violence happening on an increasing level in Britain.....  that country is turning into a cesspool while gun crime in the states is down 75%.....and gun murder is down 49%....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I'll respond to this when I stop laughing.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Off your meds again?   Your Dr. should adjust your meds so you won't have fits of emotion....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Still laughing... Oh fun fact for you, the Muslim population of the UK is something in the order of 6% of the population, we've a long way to go before we're "taken over".
Click to expand...



Yes...keep telling yourself that....


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## Vagabond63

2aguy said:


> Vagabond63 said:
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> Vagabond63 said:
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> The price of a quick reply I suppose, I just copied the article and assumed the data supplied by the journalist was accurate, you are correct, there were not 331 mass shootings in America in 2017, there were in fact 427.
> 
> Mass Shooting Tracker
> 
> Oh, and it appears there have been 403 in 2018 so far, have a happy Christmas.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mass shooting Tracker also includes domestic violence....which are not mass public shootings....but go ahead, ignore the actual violence happening on an increasing level in Britain.....  that country is turning into a cesspool while gun crime in the states is down 75%.....and gun murder is down 49%....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I'll respond to this when I stop laughing.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Off your meds again?   Your Dr. should adjust your meds so you won't have fits of emotion....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Still laughing... Oh fun fact for you, the Muslim population of the UK is something in the order of 6% of the population, we've a long way to go before we're "taken over".
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Yes...keep telling yourself that....
Click to expand...


Don't need to, the facts are the facts, whatever fantasies you might chose to advocate for.


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