# Dogs - surgical stop of bark?



## Si modo

My neighbors adopted a beagle.  It used to be a show dog.  The original owners had elective surgery done on the adorable beagle's vocal cords to stop it from barking.

It still "barks" but it sounds like it hurts the poor little thing to try to bark - sounds like it has laryngitis.  

I think that is beyond cruel.  Makes me sad and mad at the same time.

And, I think any dog show that allows such a dog to continue competing is a shame to the dog-loving world.  If the showing community immediately DQs any dog from competition, maybe fewer dogs would have their voices taken away by owners who are too inconvenienced to have a dog who acts like a dog.


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## Mad Scientist

My neighbors have two dogs that bark at cars, clouds, leaves and everything else. I talked to them about it but the guys response was typical of most dog lovers:

"That's just what dogs do!" 

I just received my electronic Bark Stopper last week and put in close to where he keeps his dogs most of the time. 

They hardly made a peep yesterday!

Neighbors are upset though; "What the f*ck is that?" Oh it's a bark stopper! "Well that's f*cked up!"

Well, that's what Humans do!


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## Si modo

Mad Scientist said:


> My neighbors have two dogs that bark at cars, clouds, leaves and everything else. I talked to them about it but the guys response was typical of most dog lovers:
> 
> "That's just what dogs do!"
> 
> I just received my electronic Bark Stopper last week and put in close to where he keeps his dogs most of the time.
> 
> They hardly made a peep yesterday!
> 
> Neighbors are upset though; "What the f*ck is that?" Oh it's a bark stopper! "Well that's f*cked up!"
> 
> Well, that's what Humans do!


So, you are in favor of such surgery?


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## California Girl

Si modo said:


> My neighbors adopted a beagle.  It used to be a show dog.  The original owners had elective surgery done on the adorable beagle's vocal cords to stop it from barking.
> 
> It still "barks" but it sounds like it hurts the poor little thing to try to bark - sounds like it has laryngitis.
> 
> I think that is beyond cruel.  Makes me sad and mad at the same time.
> 
> And, I think any dog show that allows such a dog to continue competing is a shame to the dog-loving world.  If the showing community immediately DQs any dog from competition, maybe fewer dogs would have their voices taken away by owners who are too inconvenienced to have a dog who acts like a dog.



I agree.


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## Mad Scientist

Si modo said:


> Mad Scientist said:
> 
> 
> 
> My neighbors have two dogs that bark at cars, clouds, leaves and everything else. I talked to them about it but the guys response was typical of most dog lovers:
> 
> "That's just what dogs do!"
> 
> I just received my electronic Bark Stopper last week and put in close to where he keeps his dogs most of the time.
> 
> They hardly made a peep yesterday!
> 
> Neighbors are upset though; "What the f*ck is that?" Oh it's a bark stopper! "Well that's f*cked up!"
> 
> Well, that's what Humans do!
> 
> 
> 
> So, you are in favor of such surgery?
Click to expand...

It's up to the owner to decide. You can spay or neuter your pets, I don't see much difference in surgery for barking.

I was talking to my Mother last night and she said that when she was young the common method of animal control was putting newborn kittens or puppies in bags and throwing them in the river. That was the only method at the time. 

Now we have inexpensive surgeries to make our pets more of an enjoyment to us and less of an annoyance to the neighborhood, and think that's a good thing.


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## Katzndogz

I have always had my cats declawed.   Declawing cats is quickly becoming illegal in most cities now.   Some vets won't do it as a matter of principle.   

There are some dogs that are chronic barkers.   Nothing will stop them, rather than remove the dog from the home a simple surgery is a benefit.

I could not imagine not hearing my dog's voice.  I love her barking.   I know her happy bark from her concerned bark telling me there is someone at the door or passing by the window.    Anyone who would remove my dog's voice will lose their own, it is as simple as that.

I used electronic bark control when I had the dog grooming shop.  It did not work well.  What did work very well for a dozen or so dogs that wanted to bark all day was classical music.


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## OohPooPahDoo

Si modo said:


> My neighbors adopted a beagle.  It used to be a show dog.  The original owners had elective surgery done on the adorable beagle's vocal cords to stop it from barking.
> 
> It still "barks" but it sounds like it hurts the poor little thing to try to bark - sounds like it has laryngitis.
> 
> I think that is beyond cruel.  Makes me sad and mad at the same time.
> 
> And, I think any dog show that allows such a dog to continue competing is a shame to the dog-loving world.  If the showing community immediately DQs any dog from competition, maybe fewer dogs would have their voices taken away by owners who are too inconvenienced to have a dog who acts like a dog.



What fucking idiots. If you can't stand a dog barking the last thing you wanna buy is a fucking BEAGLE. That's very sad. Their stupidity has caused a domesticated animal to lose the ability to do the thing it loves best (in the case of a beagle for sure).

For the record, if you can't tell, I HATE beagles, so if I'm coming to their defense, its for just reason, 

What's sad is that their are vets willing to perform this surgery.


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## OohPooPahDoo

Mad Scientist said:


> My neighbors have two dogs that bark at cars, clouds, leaves and everything else. I talked to them about it but the guys response was typical of most dog lovers:
> 
> "That's just what dogs do!"
> 
> I just received my electronic Bark Stopper last week and put in close to where he keeps his dogs most of the time.
> 
> They hardly made a peep yesterday!
> 
> Neighbors are upset though; "What the f*ck is that?" Oh it's a bark stopper! "Well that's f*cked up!"
> 
> Well, that's what Humans do!



Awesome. 

I'm glad to hear those things work. We have two dogs. If I ever have a neighbor that has trouble with them barking I'll do the neighborly thing and buy them one. Can you tell me what brand it is? 

I love dogs but fully understand their barking can drive a man to insanity. I fully support methods like the above to stop them from barking and if your neighbor doesn't they just need to get realistic and move to the country. The way I understand, the dog will still be able to bark if, for instance, its owner is in danger or it feels threatened. It just kinda trains them that barking is bad. You might be able to even stop using it at some point.


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## OohPooPahDoo

Katzndogz said:


> I have always had my cats declawed.



That's pretty fucked up. Conflicted birdwatcher?



Then again - a good percentage of the human race has no trouble cutting off part of a man's penis at birth


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## hjmick

You don't want a dog that barks?

Don't get a dog.


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## Mr Natural

Just as cruel as declawing a cat.

Besides, of all dog breeds, Beagles have without a doubt the best bark.


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## Si modo

Mr Clean said:


> Just as cruel as declawing a cat.
> 
> Besides, of all dog breeds, Beagles have without a doubt the best bark.


I'm partial to the Basset Hound's bark, but the Beagle is a close second.

And, yes, both breeds have active voices.  But, that does not mean they cannot be trained to tone it down.

The previous owners of this dog, by having such a surgery for the animal, couldn't demonstrate any more clearly how inept they are at training a dog.


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## hjmick

I'll go even further, any vet who would perform such a surgery should lose their license.


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## Si modo

hjmick said:


> I'll go even further, any vet who would perform such a surgery should lose their license.


Until I met this dog, I did not know that folks actually could do this.

Here is a piece in the NY Times and an excerpt:

....

Critics of the debarking procedure say it is outdated and inhumane, one that destroys an animals central means of communication merely for the owners convenience. Many veterinarians refuse to do the surgery on ethical grounds. Those who do rarely advertise it.

New Jersey bans devocalization surgery except for medical or therapeutic reasons, as do Britain and other European countries. Similar legislation is pending in Massachusetts, while Ohio restricts the surgery to nonviolent dogs.

....​
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/03/nyregion/03debark.html?pagewanted=all


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## Si modo

And, apparently from that article, it is pretty common in show dogs.

I might even write a letter to the AKC asking them to consider DQing any dog from show competitions who has had this done.

Really, they should NOT condone such a procedure.  They should immediately stop enabling such a thing by a simple change to competition qualifications.

Such enabling should not be tolerated.


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## Kooshdakhaa

Yeah, and declawing a cat is just as bad, if not worse than debarking.

People, if you can't handle claws, you don't need a cat.  You are mutiliating the animals for your own convenience.  I find that disgusting.

Same with debarking.

Although, I have told one of my Dobermans, the feistiest one, that if she ever bites me I will have all her teeth pulled.  Actually, I won't really do that, I just tell her that to try and scare her.  It doesn't work.  She's not afraid.  But she doesn't bite me, either.  Just growls. : )  

If I didn't want a feisty dog I shouldn't have gotten a Doberman.


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## Trajan

Si modo said:


> My neighbors adopted a beagle.  It used to be a show dog.  The original owners had elective surgery done on the adorable beagle's vocal cords to stop it from barking.
> 
> It still "barks" but it sounds like it hurts the poor little thing to try to bark - sounds like it has laryngitis.
> 
> I think that is beyond cruel.  Makes me sad and mad at the same time.
> 
> And, I think any dog show that allows such a dog to continue competing is a shame to the dog-loving world.  If the showing community immediately DQs any dog from competition, maybe fewer dogs would have their voices taken away by owners who are too inconvenienced to have a dog who acts like a dog.



agreed...that sux..


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## Mad Scientist

OohPooPahDoo said:


> Mad Scientist said:
> 
> 
> 
> My neighbors have two dogs that bark at cars, clouds, leaves and everything else. I talked to them about it but the guys response was typical of most dog lovers:
> 
> "That's just what dogs do!"
> 
> I just received my electronic Bark Stopper last week and put in close to where he keeps his dogs most of the time.
> 
> They hardly made a peep yesterday!
> 
> Neighbors are upset though; "What the f*ck is that?" Oh it's a bark stopper! "Well that's f*cked up!"
> 
> Well, that's what Humans do!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Awesome.
> 
> I'm glad to hear those things work. We have two dogs. If I ever have a neighbor that has trouble with them barking I'll do the neighborly thing and buy them one. Can you tell me what brand it is?
Click to expand...

I have this one:
Stop Dog Barking with the Dog Silencer Pro - Safe, Humane Anti Bark Control Product

It's set up about 20-25 feet from the cage where the dogs are usually kept. And now instead of the dogs climbing the cage walls when someone goes by they stay away from the chain link like it's electrified! 

I'm gonna buy another different one that runs on 4 "D" cell batteries and set it up about 75 feet further down the fence from the first one.


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## syrenn

Mad Scientist said:


> My neighbors have two dogs that bark at cars, clouds, leaves and everything else. I talked to them about it but the guys response was typical of most dog lovers:
> 
> "That's just what dogs do!"
> 
> I just received my electronic Bark Stopper last week and put in close to where he keeps his dogs most of the time.
> 
> They hardly made a peep yesterday!
> 
> Neighbors are upset though; "What the f*ck is that?" Oh it's a bark stopper! "Well that's f*cked up!"
> 
> Well, that's what Humans do!





I am amazed the dog show allowed it. Any "altering" in any way usually is a automatic disqualification. 

The debarking has been around for a while..... some apartments require it as a term of rental if you have a dog.


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## Mad Scientist

syrenn said:


> Mad Scientist said:
> 
> 
> 
> My neighbors have two dogs that bark at cars, clouds, leaves and everything else. I talked to them about it but the guys response was typical of most dog lovers:
> 
> "That's just what dogs do!"
> 
> I just received my electronic Bark Stopper last week and put in close to where he keeps his dogs most of the time.
> 
> They hardly made a peep yesterday!
> 
> Neighbors are upset though; "What the f*ck is that?" Oh it's a bark stopper! "Well that's f*cked up!"
> 
> Well, that's what Humans do!
> 
> 
> 
> I am amazed the dog show allowed it. Any "altering" in any way usually is a automatic disqualification.
> 
> The debarking has been around for a while..... some apartments require it as a term of rental if you have a dog.
Click to expand...

Did you quote the wrong post?


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## syrenn

Mad Scientist said:


> syrenn said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mad Scientist said:
> 
> 
> 
> My neighbors have two dogs that bark at cars, clouds, leaves and everything else. I talked to them about it but the guys response was typical of most dog lovers:
> 
> "That's just what dogs do!"
> 
> I just received my electronic Bark Stopper last week and put in close to where he keeps his dogs most of the time.
> 
> They hardly made a peep yesterday!
> 
> Neighbors are upset though; "What the f*ck is that?" Oh it's a bark stopper! "Well that's f*cked up!"
> 
> Well, that's what Humans do!
> 
> 
> 
> I am amazed the dog show allowed it. Any "altering" in any way usually is a automatic disqualification.
> 
> The debarking has been around for a while..... some apartments require it as a term of rental if you have a dog.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Did you quote the wrong post?
Click to expand...




My bad... i sure did. Sorry MS. 


It was supposed to be in response to the OP.


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## Katzndogz

OohPooPahDoo said:


> Katzndogz said:
> 
> 
> 
> I have always had my cats declawed.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That's pretty fucked up. Conflicted birdwatcher?
> 
> 
> 
> Then again - a good percentage of the human race has no trouble cutting off part of a man's penis at birth
Click to expand...


It made for a happier cat and a happier me.   Cats that never go outside have no need of claws anyway.  To my kitten, one day I was hollering at him and squirting him with a water pistol, the next day I wasn't.  

When I closed my office and opened the shop, I got a cat and kept his claws because he was a working cat and I depended on his ability as a hunter.


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## Claudette

One  of the first things I teach my dogs is the word Quiet. 

It works. My dogs can be barking like crazy. I open the door and yell QUIET. Guess what. They all shut up. 

My dogs aren't out when I'm not home so they aren't disturbing anyone.


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## Katzndogz

My dog very seldom barks.   She vocalizes a lot but only barks for emphasis on what she's already said, or to tell me something very important.   When I'm not home, she doesn't bark at all.  There's no one to talk to.


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## Wry Catcher

Dogs 'talk', owners need to listen.  There was an Animal Planet episode of Dogs 101 which 'proved' dogs talk.  Our dog has a warning bark (rapid, sharp, loud); a "I want a walk, bark" (it's a single bark at the front door with a ?); a bark at play, three  high pitched barks (thro_w the damn ball, hurry_); and an excited bark (whenever I picked up her leash, a single bark + eye contact).

That said, I would never use a surgical procedure to silence a dog; it's all about training.  There are shock collars but only necessary if one does not properly train their pet.  Sadly, many dog owners are too lazy or purchase breeds not easy to train/control.


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## Katzndogz

Wry Catcher said:


> Dogs 'talk', owners need to listen.  There was an Animal Planet episode of Dogs 101 which 'proved' dogs talk.  Our dog has a warning bark (rapid, sharp, loud); a "I want a walk, bark" (it's a single bark at the front door with a ?); a bark at play, three  high pitched barks (thro_w the damn ball, hurry_); and an excited bark (whenever I picked up her leash, a single bark + eye contact).
> 
> That said, I would never use a surgical procedure to silence a dog; it's all about training.  There are shock collars but only necessary if one does not properly train their pet.  Sadly, many dog owners are too lazy or purchase breeds not easy to train/control.



How wise of you!  Your dog no doubt finds you highly intelligent and easily trainable.   Yes, dogs do talk.   They have different tones to barks and growls, they have different reptitive barks, such as three high pitched barks, to communicate different needs.  

There are dogs that just bark, constantly, I knew a Husky like that, just constant barking with no rhyme or reason behind it.   The owner said that this kind of barking was more like Tourettes in a human.  The dog could not stop barking unless it was asleep.   It had to fed carefully and watched because it might choke as it tried to swallow and bark at the same time.   They loved the dog and had it debarked rather than put it down.  It worked out well for everyone including the dog.  Except for the uncontrollable barking, it was a good and loving dog, very smart too.  I'm sure it did not choose to bark like that, it simply could not help it.


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## BDBoop

Time for a commercial.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ntDYjS0Y3w]The Bark Side: 2012 Volkswagen Game Day Commercial Teaser - YouTube[/ame]


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## Si modo

Wry Catcher said:


> Dogs 'talk', owners need to listen.  There was an Animal Planet episode of Dogs 101 which 'proved' dogs talk.  Our dog has a warning bark (rapid, sharp, loud); a "I want a walk, bark" (it's a single bark at the front door with a ?); a bark at play, three  high pitched barks (thro_w the damn ball, hurry_); and an excited bark (whenever I picked up her leash, a single bark + eye contact).
> 
> That said, I would never use a surgical procedure to silence a dog; *it's all about training*.  There are shock collars but only necessary if one does not properly train their pet.  Sadly, many dog owners are too lazy or purchase breeds not easy to train/control.


To the bolded:  You couldn't be more right (or, sorry, I bet you prefer I say "correct"  ).  This topic epitomizes either an ineptitude of the previous owners, or simply laziness - at such a cost to the beast.

Disgusting, IMO.


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## Katzndogz

My dog has a sitter for when I'm at school.  She has successfully trained her sitter to recognize her vocalizations so that he knows when she needs to go out, wants a treat, some water, play ball.   Humans can be trained with proper motivation.


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## koshergrl

Sooo..

exactly how does the dog suffer when it has a reduced bark?

Oh, not at all. Ok, then I'm okay with it. The result is a dog who is less likely to be passed from person to person, or be put down.

I have a little dog with a mighty bark...Parson Russell hellhound. She barks loud, sharp, incessant, and obsessively. 

She barks to be let in, she barks if someone walks by outside (across the street, down the hill, for blocks coming and going. She doesn't have to see them, she can hear them, through the walls. True story.) 

I dream of scholarships for larnyx surgery. If I ever become realllly wealthy, I will set up a foundation that funds them for other beleagured dog owners. I think the surgery is ultimately much less abusive than a shock collar because I don't think she'd give a shit if she barks loud or quiet, and she can continue to bark, quietly, after the surgery, it just won't result in a well aimed kick ending her life. It's the practice she enjoys, not the sound.

Do you really think dogs are depressed after surgery because they aren't as LOUD? Seriously? Dogs don't give a shit if they don't have balls...but you're concerned they'll be bummed because they can no longer split atoms with the force of their barking?

Seriously. People put waaayyyy too much on their animals. No wonder the pets of animal rights wackos are nuts.


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## Si modo




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## koshergrl

Wry Catcher said:


> Dogs 'talk', owners need to listen. There was an Animal Planet episode of Dogs 101 which 'proved' dogs talk. Our dog has a warning bark (rapid, sharp, loud); a "I want a walk, bark" (it's a single bark at the front door with a ?); a bark at play, three high pitched barks (thro_w the damn ball, hurry_); and an excited bark (whenever I picked up her leash, a single bark + eye contact).
> 
> That said, I would never use a surgical procedure to silence a dog; it's all about training. There are shock collars but only necessary if one does not properly train their pet. Sadly, many dog owners are too lazy or purchase breeds not easy to train/control.


 
The kind of *talking* that consists of continual sharp barks at 1-second intervals, aimed up at the sky, the window, and the door while the dog races madly in circles...

That sort of talking doesn't need to be heard at 40 decibels. It's only conveying psychosis.


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## strollingbones

i am against it...but i have to wonder....how much emotion can we attribute to dogs?  mine are wonderful mutts...but they are easy...and none of them are what one would consider barkers....but before i would debark i would use an anti bark collar...but really what do dogs want?  food, water, warm place to sleep....they are good to go...they live in the moment...buddy will be with us a year next month...he seems happy...well adjusted...but ever now and then...a voice will be raised and he will run back to the house in fear.....we have never hurt him or raise a hand to him


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## strollingbones

with that said...i know thor and jake would kill and/or die for me....buddy would be on his way to the house lol


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## Synthaholic

Si modo said:


> My neighbors adopted a beagle.  It used to be a show dog.  The original owners had elective surgery done on the adorable beagle's vocal cords to stop it from barking.
> 
> It still "barks" but it sounds like it hurts the poor little thing to try to bark - sounds like it has laryngitis.
> 
> I think that is beyond cruel.  Makes me sad and mad at the same time.
> 
> And, I think any dog show that allows such a dog to continue competing is a shame to the dog-loving world.  If the showing community immediately DQs any dog from competition, maybe fewer dogs would have their voices taken away by owners who are too inconvenienced to have a dog who acts like a dog.


If it hasn't already been mentioned, they have those anti-bark collars that do work - my neighbor's Boston Terrier wears one and now doesn't bark incessantly.

Barking can become an OCD for some dogs - just look at mal!


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## koshergrl

strollingbones said:


> i am against it...but i have to wonder....how much emotion can we attribute to dogs? mine are wonderful mutts...but they are easy...and none of them are what one would consider barkers....but before i would debark i would use an anti bark collar...but really what do dogs want? food, water, warm place to sleep....they are good to go...they live in the moment...buddy will be with us a year next month...he seems happy...well adjusted...but ever now and then...a voice will be raised and he will run back to the house in fear.....we have never hurt him or raise a hand to him


 
I think they are emotional...but they aren't the same as ours.

Dogs are accepting. That's what defines them. A dog that loses an eye or a leg...they will lead perfectly happy lives if given the opportunity. They don't miss their leg, or their eye, or a tail..they don't care if they're scarred, or if they're bald, or if they have bad breath. 

The society of dogs isn't determined by their physical appearance, or the loudness of their voices. In a pack, a dog that barks incessantly just might be ostracized or killed. That crazy barking is something that is unnatural and is caused by their confinement. A dog that is loose doesn't run in circles and bark..they run to whatever has captured their attention.

We modify them to adapt to our lifestyles. I feel much worse about confining animals than I do about physiical alternations we make to make their co-existence with humans more hygienic and less antagonistic. We neuter animals because we find them annoying when they aren't neuterred, and we don't like to be subjected to multitudes of feral animals...but in NATURE they have way more babies than can survive for a reason...it protects their population. So we neuter them because we just don't like to be faced with the unsettling fact of the matter. 

And the animal rights yahoos promote the shit out of that (and I'm all for it). 

But they balk at snipping vocal chords?

Puh leeze.


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## manifold

IMO debarking surgery is wrong, but not nearly as selfish and cruel as declawing a cat.  And don't give me the bullshit 'indoor' cat excuse either.  Even indoor cats sometimes get out, and you've taken away the cats one and only ability to defend itself or even climb a tree to get out of harm's way.  If you have your cat declawed, you're not a cat lover, you're a fucking asshole.


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## koshergrl

Speaking of attributing our emotional lives to them...

This weekend, my saint managed to open the back sliding glass door, and he and the terrier both escaped some time in the night. This is bad..the terrier likes to hunt and is fairly aggressive towards other dogs. My concern is that she and the saint will knock some old codger walking his Mitzy poodle over and I'll be liable for a horrific lawsuit (what dogs? I've never seen those dogs before in my life!)...or my terrier will start a fight that my saint will finish, or will start a fight that will be the end of her (the saint isn't much for fighting but he does love his terrier). 

Or they'll get hit by a car.

Anyway, they escaped, and the saint returned, exhausted, wet, stressed, panting...and the terrier didn't.

Throughout the day, my big boy acted depressed. He laid around, he panted, he whined, he looked soulful. I was sure he'd witnessed something traumatic, or he was just distressed over the absence of his pet. We pampered him as we frantically looked for the terrier, called the cops, visited the pound, went around to neighbors and just random people walking in the streets with our tale of woe.

As if it would make any difference...nobody can lay a hand on her but me, save one little boy I knew who was determined and would just chase her cross country and jump on her, and take the bites he got as a matter of course...but I don't expect my neighbors to do that...

Anyway, we all felt so sorry for my saint, my heart broke for him!

Then the terrier came back! Joy!

Except...he didn't even get up off the floor. His behavior remained exactly the same. I don't think he cared at all, I think he was just tired! All that anxious empathy on my part...for nothing.

Or maybe he was mad at her for whatever happened...out there....

Anyway, the point is, we have no idea. They're dogs. We're human. We're motivated by different things.


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## Emma

Si modo said:


> My neighbors adopted a beagle.  It used to be a show dog.  The original owners had elective surgery done on the adorable beagle's vocal cords to stop it from barking.
> 
> It still "barks" but it sounds like it hurts the poor little thing to try to bark - sounds like it has laryngitis.
> 
> I think that is beyond cruel.  Makes me sad and mad at the same time.
> 
> And, I think any dog show that allows such a dog to continue competing is a shame to the dog-loving world.  If the showing community immediately DQs any dog from competition, maybe fewer dogs would have their voices taken away by owners who are too inconvenienced to have a dog who acts like a dog.



I'm even more pissed that a vet would even _consider_ performing such a procedure.


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## manifold

Emma said:


> Si modo said:
> 
> 
> 
> My neighbors adopted a beagle.  It used to be a show dog.  The original owners had elective surgery done on the adorable beagle's vocal cords to stop it from barking.
> 
> It still "barks" but it sounds like it hurts the poor little thing to try to bark - sounds like it has laryngitis.
> 
> I think that is beyond cruel.  Makes me sad and mad at the same time.
> 
> And, I think any dog show that allows such a dog to continue competing is a shame to the dog-loving world.  If the showing community immediately DQs any dog from competition, maybe fewer dogs would have their voices taken away by owners who are too inconvenienced to have a dog who acts like a dog.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm even more pissed that a vet would even _consider_ performing such a procedure.
Click to expand...


Every vet I've ever known save one is a money grubbing douchebag.  They always try to make you feel like a bad owner if you don't want to spend hundreds of dollars on unnecessary tests.


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## BDBoop




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## Kiki Cannoli

I adopted a debarked beagle from a laboratory situation.  After a few years the chords healed and he sounded a bit like a baby crying.  I wouldn't choose to debark, but I will be honest, receiving him already 'quiet' wasn't all that bad.


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## Katzndogz

manifold said:


> IMO debarking surgery is wrong, but not nearly as selfish and cruel as declawing a cat.  And don't give me the bullshit 'indoor' cat excuse either.  Even indoor cats sometimes get out, and you've taken away the cats one and only ability to defend itself or even climb a tree to get out of harm's way.  If you have your cat declawed, you're not a cat lover, you're a fucking asshole.



Cats do not use front claws for self defense, it's the rear claws.   A declawed cat can climb a tree just fine using rear claws.  Front claws are used for hunting and injuring prey, they aren't even used for killing prey.  If you have seen a cat with a newly caught meal, they hold it by the neck and shake their heads very rapidly breaking lunch's neck.   A cat in a battle rolls over on its back and rips open bellies with those powerful rear claws.   If a cat is not expected to hunt down and kill it's own kibble, front claws are merely a nuisance.   

I would never deprive a cat of rear claws.  Front claws are good for climbing drapes and scratching furniture.   Indoor cats do just fine, they still exhibit clawing behavior and I don't have to tell them no.  That makes the cat very happy since it can engage in instinctive behavior all over the house without damage.   I've had cats that have been declawed and cats that haven't been declawed.   The only difference I've noticed is that it isn't easy to train a cat not to claw it's how they spread their scent.   Clipping claws doesn't work.   Cats shed their old claws every few days and have sharp brand new claws that you don't even know about.  Done young enough and the cat adapts quite well to not having claws.  They don't even miss them.  Like a dog really doesn't miss its bark.  All the dog knows is that no one is shouting at them anymore.


----------



## Katzndogz

koshergrl said:


> Speaking of attributing our emotional lives to them...
> 
> This weekend, my saint managed to open the back sliding glass door, and he and the terrier both escaped some time in the night. This is bad..the terrier likes to hunt and is fairly aggressive towards other dogs. My concern is that she and the saint will knock some old codger walking his Mitzy poodle over and I'll be liable for a horrific lawsuit (what dogs? I've never seen those dogs before in my life!)...or my terrier will start a fight that my saint will finish, or will start a fight that will be the end of her (the saint isn't much for fighting but he does love his terrier).
> 
> Or they'll get hit by a car.
> 
> Anyway, they escaped, and the saint returned, exhausted, wet, stressed, panting...and the terrier didn't.
> 
> Throughout the day, my big boy acted depressed. He laid around, he panted, he whined, he looked soulful. I was sure he'd witnessed something traumatic, or he was just distressed over the absence of his pet. We pampered him as we frantically looked for the terrier, called the cops, visited the pound, went around to neighbors and just random people walking in the streets with our tale of woe.
> 
> As if it would make any difference...nobody can lay a hand on her but me, save one little boy I knew who was determined and would just chase her cross country and jump on her, and take the bites he got as a matter of course...but I don't expect my neighbors to do that...
> 
> Anyway, we all felt so sorry for my saint, my heart broke for him!
> 
> Then the terrier came back! Joy!
> 
> Except...he didn't even get up off the floor. His behavior remained exactly the same. I don't think he cared at all, I think he was just tired! All that anxious empathy on my part...for nothing.
> 
> Or maybe he was mad at her for whatever happened...out there....
> 
> Anyway, the point is, we have no idea. They're dogs. We're human. We're motivated by different things.



Last week I had to put the cat down.  He was 16, with a massive cancerous tumor on his liver.   He was in terrific pain.   I miss the old guy, he had a big heart and was a lifesaver more than once.

My dog took it very hard.  She's only 7 so he was in her life since we got her at 3 weeks.  She never knew a day without that cat.   They would fight unbelievably, claws, fangs, teeth, screaming, biting, but they never hurt one another and the battles royal always ended up the same way, a cat/dog fur pile sound asleep.   My dog missed the cat so much, she spend a lot of time at the mirror to ease her lonliness.   She laid down in all his favorite spots.   I think she's getting over it now.


----------



## manifold

Katzndogz said:


> manifold said:
> 
> 
> 
> IMO debarking surgery is wrong, but not nearly as selfish and cruel as declawing a cat.  And don't give me the bullshit 'indoor' cat excuse either.  Even indoor cats sometimes get out, and you've taken away the cats one and only ability to defend itself or even climb a tree to get out of harm's way.  If you have your cat declawed, you're not a cat lover, you're a fucking asshole.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Cats do not use front claws for self defense*, it's the rear claws.   A declawed cat can climb a tree just fine using rear claws.  Front claws are used for hunting and injuring prey, they aren't even used for killing prey.  If you have seen a cat with a newly caught meal, they hold it by the neck and shake their heads very rapidly breaking lunch's neck.   A cat in a battle rolls over on its back and rips open bellies with those powerful rear claws.   If a cat is not expected to hunt down and kill it's own kibble, front claws are merely a nuisance.
> 
> I would never deprive a cat of rear claws.  Front claws are good for climbing drapes and scratching furniture.   Indoor cats do just fine, they still exhibit clawing behavior and I don't have to tell them no.  That makes the cat very happy since it can engage in instinctive behavior all over the house without damage.   I've had cats that have been declawed and cats that haven't been declawed.   The only difference I've noticed is that it isn't easy to train a cat not to claw it's how they spread their scent.   Clipping claws doesn't work.   Cats shed their old claws every few days and have sharp brand new claws that you don't even know about.  Done young enough and the cat adapts quite well to not having claws.  They don't even miss them.  Like a dog really doesn't miss its bark.  All the dog knows is that no one is shouting at them anymore.
Click to expand...


I stopped reading there.

Obviously you're not just a fucking asshole, you're patently retarded too.


----------



## KissMy

Mad Scientist said:


> My neighbors have two dogs that bark at cars, clouds, leaves and everything else. I talked to them about it but the guys response was typical of most dog lovers:
> 
> "That's just what dogs do!"
> 
> I just received my electronic Bark Stopper last week and put in close to where he keeps his dogs most of the time.
> 
> They hardly made a peep yesterday!
> 
> Neighbors are upset though; "What the f*ck is that?" Oh it's a bark stopper! "Well that's f*cked up!"
> 
> Well, that's what Humans do!



I have a friend who has a Jack Russell that barked all the time so much so that all of her neighbors kept calling the police & animal control on her. She moved & the new neighbors did the same thing. So she had the vocal cords cut. It still barked but you could not hear if outside. It was still a problem when she would watch my dog because when her dog kept barking like quiet laryngitis it would cause my loud dog to bark. Then the police would get called again. So she had to stop dog sitting. She eventually gave that dog to her dad who lived in the country.


----------



## koshergrl

When I was a kid my mom spent a lot of money we didn't have on a pedigreed German Shepherd pup...who got one of our semi-tame half-Siamese cats trapped under the table.

The cat took out her eye with a front claw.

They do use their front claws.

I've also had my share of attacks from the front end...not funny playful attacks, either.

But what mom always says about declawing....if they get outside (and they usually will) they need those claws to climb, if something's chasing them.


----------



## Katzndogz

koshergrl said:


> When I was a kid my mom spent a lot of money we didn't have on a pedigreed German Shepherd pup...who got one of our semi-tame half-Siamese cats trapped under the table.
> 
> The cat took out her eye with a front claw.
> 
> They do use their front claws.
> 
> I've also had my share of attacks from the front end...not funny playful attacks, either.
> 
> But what mom always says about declawing....if they get outside (and they usually will) they need those claws to climb, if something's chasing them.



That was all the cat could do was reach out from a cornered position.   Talk to an animal behaviorist, they'll tell you.   Cats fight with back claws.   They climb with back claws too. 

Declawing is not cruel
Cat Claws

I've had cats that kept their claws and cats that I've declawed.  Indoor declawed cats are generally happier and more even tempered than cats that have kept their claws.  

I've had scratching posts made out of everything in the world and used soft claws caps.   I've used attractants and repellants.   Every kind and type of cat behavior control.  I prefer just declawing and be done with it.


----------



## Emma

My cat decided to wake me by walking across my face ... puncturing my cheek with her back claw. I called my doc to make sure my tetanus was up to date, but they had to call me back ... she was laughing too hard to look it up. 

Damn cat is lucky to be alive.


----------



## koshergrl

Katzndogz said:


> koshergrl said:
> 
> 
> 
> When I was a kid my mom spent a lot of money we didn't have on a pedigreed German Shepherd pup...who got one of our semi-tame half-Siamese cats trapped under the table.
> 
> The cat took out her eye with a front claw.
> 
> They do use their front claws.
> 
> I've also had my share of attacks from the front end...not funny playful attacks, either.
> 
> But what mom always says about declawing....if they get outside (and they usually will) they need those claws to climb, if something's chasing them.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That was all the cat could do was reach out from a cornered position.   Talk to an animal behaviorist, they'll tell you.   Cats fight with back claws.   They climb with back claws too.
> 
> Declawing is not cruel
> Cat Claws
> 
> I've had cats that kept their claws and cats that I've declawed.  Indoor declawed cats are generally happier and more even tempered than cats that have kept their claws.
> 
> I've had scratching posts made out of everything in the world and used soft claws caps.   I've used attractants and repellants.   Every kind and type of cat behavior control.  I prefer just declawing and be done with it.
Click to expand...


Sure they do it when they're trapped. They only fight with their hind claws when they're actually being held on their backs. That's when cats fight. Why on earth do you think they would fight other than when they're cornered or being held down?

I've seen cats using their front claws to attack and defend themselves. I have years and years of seeing cats use their front claws. I've had front claws used on me when they absolutely weren't trapped. I dont' care if you declaw your cats, but what you're saying is hooey.

I've also seen a mother cat come out of a house and jump on the heads of two dogs...she held on with her back feet and smacked the shit out of the dogs' heads with her front, then jumped onto the head of the other one and did it to him. She definitely wasn't trapped. She ran over my feet on her way out the front door and left bleeding 3 inch cuts across the tops just from running across my feet.


----------



## manifold

koshergrl said:


> Katzndogz said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> koshergrl said:
> 
> 
> 
> When I was a kid my mom spent a lot of money we didn't have on a pedigreed German Shepherd pup...who got one of our semi-tame half-Siamese cats trapped under the table.
> 
> The cat took out her eye with a front claw.
> 
> They do use their front claws.
> 
> I've also had my share of attacks from the front end...not funny playful attacks, either.
> 
> But what mom always says about declawing....if they get outside (and they usually will) they need those claws to climb, if something's chasing them.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That was all the cat could do was reach out from a cornered position.   Talk to an animal behaviorist, they'll tell you.   Cats fight with back claws.   They climb with back claws too.
> 
> Declawing is not cruel
> Cat Claws
> 
> I've had cats that kept their claws and cats that I've declawed.  Indoor declawed cats are generally happier and more even tempered than cats that have kept their claws.
> 
> I've had scratching posts made out of everything in the world and used soft claws caps.   I've used attractants and repellants.   Every kind and type of cat behavior control.  I prefer just declawing and be done with it.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Sure they do it when they're trapped. They only fight with their hind claws when they're actually being held on their backs. That's when cats fight. Why on earth do you think they would fight other than when they're cornered or being held down?
> 
> I've seen cats using their front claws to attack and defend themselves. I have years and years of seeing cats use their front claws. I've had front claws used on me when they absolutely weren't trapped. I dont' care if you declaw your cats, but what you're saying is hooey.
> 
> I've also seen a mother cat come out of a house and jump on the heads of two dogs...she held on with her back feet and smacked the shit out of the dogs' heads with her front, then jumped onto the head of the other one and did it to him. She definitely wasn't trapped. She ran over my feet on her way out the front door and left bleeding 3 inch cuts across the tops just from running across my feet.
Click to expand...


...and they definitely can't climb trees without front claws.  That claim is perhaps even more retarded.


----------



## oldernwiser

Si modo said:


> And, apparently from that article, it is pretty common in show dogs.
> 
> I might even write a letter to the AKC asking them to consider DQing any dog from show competitions who has had this done.
> 
> Really, they should NOT condone such a procedure.  They should immediately stop enabling such a thing by a simple change to competition qualifications.
> 
> Such enabling should not be tolerated.



Seems to me that a dog is DQ'd immediately if they have been spayed or neutered. Shouldn't be too hard a sell to also include other surgical alterations.

Maybe if barking was made to be part of the breed standard...?


----------



## koshergrl

Barking actually is part of the breed standard of some breeds.

Hounds, for example, and beagles, and dogs who give voice. My little loon is a parson russell...a jack russell bred to chase foxes, so interbred with fox terriers to increase their leg length...and she has an incredibly powerful voice. 

Those big powerful voices combined with the hypervigilance that is the trademark of hunting dogs do not combine well with town living. She's perfectly happy in town...but she doesn't make our neigbors or us happy with her head-splitting, frantic barking about 200 x a day.


----------



## MHunterB

A forme neighbor behind us had a neurotic Sheltie who was left in their yard from about 4:30 AM until they got home about 6:30 PM.  Frantic high-pitched barking every time a stray leaf blew into the yard.....  never mind when the Sheltie saw a squirrel!

There's a hill behind our house, so their yard was at the level of our bedroom windows.  We had to keep the A/C going pretty much year-round to ever sleep past 4:30.

Sometimes debarking might be a way of avoiding having to take a dog from a home - after irate neighbors execute its owners for 'noise terrorism'.

But short of such situations, debarking a dog IS cruel and unnatural.  I think it's worse than declawing kittons.  Especially for a beagle.  They don't 'bark':  they 'bugle'!


----------



## BDBoop

They DO bugle! And bay, and bark ... they have a variety of vocals. 

I used to have a sheltie mix, AND I have an exaggerated startle reflex. So every time our little one kicked in with the Dino "yip-yip-yip-yip-yip!!" the big one would startle-bark, and somebody would need a giant spatula to pry me off the ceiling.


----------



## earlycuyler

My dog stops barking when I say "shush".


----------



## BDBoop

<.< Huh. That can't be normal.


----------



## Thorgasm

Good grief people! Animals are not furniture or accessories. Declawing cats is retarded. You can trim their nails. They scratch to keep them from getting too long. 

Debarking a dog is retarded too. Most chronic barkers are bored. Dogs need walked daily for at least an hour. You also have to interact with them. Training gives them mental stimulation. Anyone who keeps their dogs outside in a cage all day needs to do some time in jail. Dogs aren't lawn ornaments. 

I am amazed at the people who acquire pets without doing any research about their needs. 

Also, 90% of dog communication is non-verbal. If people learned how to read their dog's body language the dog wouldn't have to bark incessantly.


----------



## signelect

Dogs bark, some breeds more than others.  My dog is a Chesapeak Bay Retriver and she waight over 100 lbs,  when she barks I listen and the people out side more door listen to.  If you don't like dogs barking buy a snake.


----------



## Thorgasm

signelect said:


> Dogs bark, some breeds more than others.  My dog is a Chesapeak Bay Retriver and she waight over 100 lbs,  when she barks I listen and the people out side more door listen to.  If you don't like dogs barking buy a snake.



Fish are also an option.


----------



## koshergrl

Yeah, unfortunately, if you live in town and have dogs, and the neighbors protest, your dog is the one who is going to suffer.

Which is why I'm fine with debarking. The dogs don't give a shit, and if it means they can continue to live with a family that loves them and they love, who cares?

I actually got a bizarro hate letter shortly after moving here....a rambling anonymous letter about how my neighbors were suffering because of my dogs barking (I had no idea they were barking..my little dog was being kept in the house, my big dog in back during the day). With a full page xerox insert about how God is watching me, how he watches everything I do, every move I make...

The letter included the standard "This was a nice quiet neighborhood before YOU moved here" lol.

I was appalled and mortified...particularly since none of my neighbors has ever said a word to me, and every other house in the neighborhood has dogs...some of them big ones. I asked my cousin, who is a dispatcher and lives down the street, and knows many of our neighbors (which include a K-9 cop and various and assorted other cops) if she had heard anything about my dogs, and she said absolutely not.

Anyway, I brought my dog in and they are now completely house dogs, including the big boy. I have no idea who sent the letter, I think it was some random person who walked by my house and didn't like being barked at, and not a neighbor at all. 

But I digress. My point is, I would rather debark my dogs than try to find new homes for them. They love us, and we love them, and they have a good life. I haven't had to do that, because I do keep them in the house (and listen to all the other neighborhood dogs in my before-KG "quiet" neighborhood bark long and hard for hours on end)

My little dog obsesses over birds..she'll bark incessantly at them. Tweety birds, birds flying overhead, crows sitting on the top of the roof. She never ever stops. That's the sort of dog she is.

When she's loose, she runs, and she hunts. For hours, and hours, and hours. She hunts birds and small animals. 

I'm still playing with the idea of debarking her, if that meant that she could stay outside during the day. Because she LOVES to be outside.


----------



## Thorgasm

koshergrl said:


> Yeah, unfortunately, if you live in town and have dogs, and the neighbors protest, your dog is the one who is going to suffer.
> 
> Which is why I'm fine with debarking. The dogs don't give a shit, and if it means they can continue to live with a family that loves them and they love, who cares?
> 
> I actually got a bizarro hate letter shortly after moving here....a rambling anonymous letter about how my neighbors were suffering because of my dogs barking (I had no idea they were barking..my little dog was being kept in the house, my big dog in back during the day). With a full page xerox insert about how God is watching me, how he watches everything I do, every move I make...
> 
> The letter included the standard "This was a nice quiet neighborhood before YOU moved here" lol.
> 
> I was appalled and mortified...particularly since none of my neighbors has ever said a word to me, and every other house in the neighborhood has dogs...some of them big ones. I asked my cousin, who is a dispatcher and lives down the street, and knows many of our neighbors (which include a K-9 cop and various and assorted other cops) if she had heard anything about my dogs, and she said absolutely not.
> 
> Anyway, I brought my dog in and they are now completely house dogs, including the big boy. I have no idea who sent the letter, I think it was some random person who walked by my house and didn't like being barked at, and not a neighbor at all.
> 
> But I digress. My point is, I would rather debark my dogs than try to find new homes for them. They love us, and we love them, and they have a good life. I haven't had to do that, because I do keep them in the house (and listen to all the other neighborhood dogs in my before-KG "quiet" neighborhood bark long and hard for hours on end)
> 
> My little dog obsesses over birds..she'll bark incessantly at them. Tweety birds, birds flying overhead, crows sitting on the top of the roof. She never ever stops. That's the sort of dog she is.
> 
> When she's loose, she runs, and she hunts. For hours, and hours, and hours. She hunts birds and small animals.
> 
> I'm still playing with the idea of debarking her, if that meant that she could stay outside during the day. Because she LOVES to be outside.



This is silly. You operate from the premise of a false dichotomy. You state that it's either debark them or get rid of them. There are other options. You could try training them, they have bark collars, or you could have someone else train them. 

Having them debarked without trying other methods is as stupid as having gastric bypass surgery before trying exercise and a healthy diet.


----------



## koshergrl

Actually, I never stated that, so you are the one operating from the premise of a false dichotomy. But there definitely are instances where a dog's barking leads to them being shuffled from place to place. Are there other options? Maybe. Once in a while they work. Will neighbors wait? Not always.

And there are dogs that can't be trained not to bark. My parson is one of them. 

And I'd rather have my girl debarked that subject her to the torture of a bark collar. At least she still gets to engage in the behavior if she's de-barked, rather than being subjected to punishment every time she tries it.


----------



## Thorgasm

koshergrl said:


> Actually, I never stated that, so you are the one operating from the premise of a false dichotomy. But there definitely are instances where a dog's barking leads to them being shuffled from place to place. Are there other options? Maybe. Once in a while they work. Will neighbors wait? Not always.
> 
> And there are dogs that can't be trained not to bark. My parson is one of them.
> 
> And I'd rather have my girl debarked that subject her to the torture of a bark collar. At least she still gets to engage in the behavior if she's de-barked, rather than being subjected to punishment every time she tries it.



You said:



> My point is, I would rather debark my dogs than try to find new homes for them.



Unless your dog has a neuroligical issue, it is trainable. What methods have you used? Which books did you read about training dogs and who were they authored by? How many trainers have you taken your dog to?

You don't have to punish a dog to train it. You can use redirection or corrections. I'll bet Cesar Milan could have your dog behaving in an afternoon. It sounds to me like you don't know how to train your dog to not bark and probably haven't even tried it.

I also don't understand how you don't think it was really a neighbor that wrote the letter but yet your neighbors won't wait for training to work. I think you are making excuses for laziness. How often do you walk your dogs?


----------



## Thorgasm

koshergrl said:


> I rep for a lot of reasons.
> 
> But if I rep you (not YOU personally...the abstract "you") a lot, and you never rep me back, and in fact say shitty things to and about me...eventually those reps are going to stop.



I don't know if you directed this at me or not, but I am new here and not familiar with the rep system.


----------



## koshergrl

I know what I said. And it wasn't what you said I said. 
I would rather debark my dog than try to find new homes for them.

And no, Cesar wouldn't have my dog behaving in an afternoon. She would be one of the "this is as bad as it gets" cases that he would take and put with his big bad boys. She doesn't back down, she's aggressive, she's dominant, and she's hard wired to do what she does. 

I don't think it was a neighbor because I have since gotten to  know my neighbors, and they say it wasn't them. And at the time it happened, I asked around. Nobody else was bothered by the dogs. 

So thank you, take your amateur dog training tips and try them on someone who will be impressed by them. I don't need your input, I'm discussing debarking, and I remain in favor of it, if makes life easier for a family, including their pet.


----------



## koshergrl

Thorgasm said:


> koshergrl said:
> 
> 
> 
> I rep for a lot of reasons.
> 
> But if I rep you (not YOU personally...the abstract "you") a lot, and you never rep me back, and in fact say shitty things to and about me...eventually those reps are going to stop.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I don't know if you directed this at me or not, but I am new here and not familiar with the rep system.
Click to expand...

 
WTH..wrong thread, deleted.


----------



## Thorgasm

koshergrl said:


> I know what I said. And it wasn't what you said I said.
> I would rather debark my dog than try to find new homes for them.
> 
> And no, Cesar wouldn't have my dog behaving in an afternoon. She would be one of the "this is as bad as it gets" cases that he would take and put with his big bad boys. She doesn't back down, she's aggressive, she's dominant, and she's hard wired to do what she does.
> 
> I don't think it was a neighbor because I have since gotten to  know my neighbors, and they say it wasn't them. And at the time it happened, I asked around. Nobody else was bothered by the dogs.
> 
> So thank you, take your amateur dog training tips and try them on someone who will be impressed by them. I don't need your input, I'm discussing debarking, and I remain in favor of it, if makes life easier for a family, including their pet.



There is a difference between aggression and dominance. 

I noticed that you refused to answer any of my questions. My suspicions must have been correct. 

Not every dog reacts well to anasthesia. Surgery should be a last option. You chose the quickest and easiest option. If your dog was allergic to anasthesia or got an infection it certainly could have been more harmful than training. I hope people on the fence about debarking consider this. 

If people don't have the time to walk their dogs, stimulate them mentally, and train them, they probably would be better off having fish for a pet.


----------



## koshergrl

I know there's a difference between aggression and dominance, which is why I said she's aggressive AND dominant.

I refused to answer your question because I don't need a lesson on training my dog, thanks, but no thanks. I don't get into *discussions* about how I should be dealing with my animals with people who offer advice without being asked. I've had horses and dogs all my life, and I can smell a wannabe with something to prove a mile away. They're the people who approach you before they know anything about you or your animals, or your history, to tell you all the things you're doing wrong, and to puff up their own chests and rattle off all their expert opinions as fast as they can get them out.

Not interested.


----------



## Thorgasm

koshergrl said:


> I know there's a difference between aggression and dominance, which is why I said she's aggressive AND dominant.
> 
> I refused to answer your question because I don't need a lesson on training my dog, thanks, but no thanks. I don't get into *discussions* about how I should be dealing with my animals with people who offer advice without being asked. I've had horses and dogs all my life, and I can smell a wannabe with something to prove a mile away. They're the people who approach you before they know anything about you or your animals, or your history, to tell you all the things you're doing wrong, and to puff up their own chests and rattle off all their expert opinions as fast as they can get them out.
> 
> Not interested.



I know you aren't interested. Don't think I am foolish enough to think I could persuade you. 

My posts aren't about puffing up my chest. I am interested in dogs being healthy and balanced. I have no delusions about myself being the perfect pet owner. I have educated myself about dogs and dog behavior more than the average pet owner though. If I have a chance to share information with people and that helps them, that's great. As I am sure you know, you can lead a horse to water but you can't make them drink. 

I know people that have driven their whole life and they still drink and drive, text while driving, put on makeup, etc... Being around people their whole life doesn't automatically make one a psychologist either. 

If you like your dog being aggressive and dominant and aren't concerned about the potential lawsuits from your dog's aggression, or the possible harm to your dog due to it's aggression, don't listen to anyone. I'm am open to hearing peoples advice and suggestions. I'm not afraid to learn something new. Knowledge is power. If I don't like certain advice, I don't employ it. 

This is a discussion about debarking dogs. In my opinion, it appears that you are only seeking validation for your opinion. I'm sorry my refusal to validate your poor choice of an opinion is offensive to you. I just hope others don't see your opinion well informed.


----------



## koshergrl

Good lord, shut up already.

If only you knew how many pontificating loons I've had the misfortune to be subjected to.

It goes with the territory...as bad as the dog world is, the horse world is even worse. I love it when someone who has had horses for about 10  minutes starts prating at me about everything I'm doing wrong, based on completely idiotic assumptions gleaned from a statement or two on an internet message board.

Now you belong to that crowd. You've made a lot of retarded assumptions about me based on the fact that I don't have a problem with debarking. You are the biggest loser.


----------



## Thorgasm

koshergrl said:


> Good lord, shut up already.


 
So you want to amputate my hands? 


koshergrl said:


> If only you knew how many pontificating loons I've had the misfortune to be subjected to.


 
I'm not sure how this information would help me. 



koshergrl said:


> It goes with the territory...as bad as the dog world is, the horse world is even worse. I love it when someone who has had horses for about 10  minutes starts prating at me about everything I'm doing wrong, based on completely idiotic assumptions gleaned from a statement or two on an internet message board.
> 
> Now you belong to that crowd. You've made a lot of retarded assumptions about me based on the fact that I don't have a problem with debarking. You are the biggest loser.



So you want your dog to exhibit aggression? 

That's odd.


----------



## koshergrl

Thorgasm said:


> koshergrl said:
> 
> 
> 
> Good lord, shut up already.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So you want to amputate my hands?
> 
> 
> koshergrl said:
> 
> 
> 
> If only you knew how many pontificating loons I've had the misfortune to be subjected to.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I'm not sure how this information would help me.
> 
> 
> 
> koshergrl said:
> 
> 
> 
> It goes with the territory...as bad as the dog world is, the horse world is even worse. I love it when someone who has had horses for about 10 minutes starts prating at me about everything I'm doing wrong, based on completely idiotic assumptions gleaned from a statement or two on an internet message board.
> 
> Now you belong to that crowd. You've made a lot of retarded assumptions about me based on the fact that I don't have a problem with debarking. You are the biggest loser.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> So you want your dog to exhibit aggression?
> 
> That's odd.
Click to expand...

 
Keep rolling with it. You obviously have a rich fantasy life.


----------



## Thorgasm

koshergrl said:


> Thorgasm said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> koshergrl said:
> 
> 
> 
> Good lord, shut up already.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So you want to amputate my hands?
> 
> 
> I'm not sure how this information would help me.
> 
> 
> 
> koshergrl said:
> 
> 
> 
> It goes with the territory...as bad as the dog world is, the horse world is even worse. I love it when someone who has had horses for about 10 minutes starts prating at me about everything I'm doing wrong, based on completely idiotic assumptions gleaned from a statement or two on an internet message board.
> 
> Now you belong to that crowd. You've made a lot of retarded assumptions about me based on the fact that I don't have a problem with debarking. You are the biggest loser.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> So you want your dog to exhibit aggression?
> 
> That's odd.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Keep rolling with it. You obviously have a rich fantasy life.
Click to expand...


It's irresponsible to not address aggression.


----------



## koshergrl

Russells are aggressive. That's the sort of dog they are. That's why people with Jacks & Parsons never leave their terriers alone with other terriers, or any other animal. They've been bred to hunt and kill foxes and large rodents. That's the sort of dog they are.

We've had my girl for 5 years now. She's a rescue. Her previous owner had to get rid of her because he was getting married, and his new wife had children and those children had pets, including other dogs, and she couldn't be trusted with any of them...kids, dogs, cats, whatever. She couldn't run loose, because she hunted continually and killed everything she found, and chased things for miles. 

She's possessive, territorial, obsessive, aggressive, dominant and has a verry strong prey drive. 

Are you getting the picture?

We love her and she's part of our family. If the barking caused a problem with the neighbors, I would have her debarked in a hot second because I don't want to give her to somebody else. It nearly broke her heart when she was given to us, and the first time I went on vacation and left her behind, she went into a decline that took her months to get over. Over the last 5 years I have managed to socialize her and she is much less inclined to bite (though she still does every now and then). She still attacks other dogs under certain circumstances. We can't have cats or any other small animal. She kills birds, she pulls them out of the air when they fly over the yard.

I know all about the 40 minute rollerblade/bicycle/treadmill schtick. I don't have a dog treadmill, and I can't run fast enough or far enough to wear her out. In fact, I've never seen her worn out, and I've seen her when she's come home after chasing deer for a full 24 hours. I promise you, 40 minutes at a run does nothing to change her attitude.

She's a terrier, and she's a parson russell to boot. This is what they do. 

A saint bernard joined our household last year and he has opened up a whole new world for her, lol. It took a long time, but she has learned to play..and she can't hurt him, so they are the perfect, if odd looking, pair. They play tug of war every night...and it is so funny to watch her reach inside his mouth and pluck her toys out of there...


----------



## Peach

si modo said:


> my neighbors adopted a beagle.  It used to be a show dog.  The original owners had elective surgery done on the adorable beagle's vocal cords to stop it from barking.
> 
> It still "barks" but it sounds like it hurts the poor little thing to try to bark - sounds like it has laryngitis.
> 
> I think that is beyond cruel.  Makes me sad and mad at the same time.
> 
> And, i think any dog show that allows such a dog to continue competing is a shame to the dog-loving world.  If the showing community immediately dqs any dog from competition, maybe fewer dogs would have their voices taken away by owners who are too inconvenienced to have a dog who acts like a dog.



*Agreed.* I do not care if the pup is a 'show dog' or not, this is abuse.


----------



## koshergrl

Thorgasm said:


> koshergrl said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thorgasm said:
> 
> 
> 
> So you want to amputate my hands?
> 
> 
> I'm not sure how this information would help me.
> 
> 
> 
> So you want your dog to exhibit aggression?
> 
> That's odd.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Keep rolling with it. You obviously have a rich fantasy life.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> It's irresponsible to not address aggression.
Click to expand...

 
When did you get the impression I didn't address it?


----------



## Zander

Si modo said:


> My neighbors adopted a beagle.  It used to be a show dog.  The original owners had elective surgery done on the adorable beagle's vocal cords to stop it from barking.
> 
> It still "barks" but it sounds like it hurts the poor little thing to try to bark - sounds like it has laryngitis.
> 
> I think that is beyond cruel.  Makes me sad and mad at the same time.
> 
> And, I think any dog show that allows such a dog to continue competing is a shame to the dog-loving world.  If the showing community immediately DQs any dog from competition, maybe fewer dogs would have their voices taken away by owners who are too inconvenienced to have a dog who acts like a dog.



I think it's sickening and I would have no problem telling them. In fact, I'd love to tell them. Give me their phone number and I will give those sick fucks a call, every night, until they die!


----------



## koshergrl

That's called harassment, and it's generally frowned upon.


----------



## koshergrl

Peach said:


> si modo said:
> 
> 
> 
> my neighbors adopted a beagle. It used to be a show dog. The original owners had elective surgery done on the adorable beagle's vocal cords to stop it from barking.
> 
> It still "barks" but it sounds like it hurts the poor little thing to try to bark - sounds like it has laryngitis.
> 
> I think that is beyond cruel. Makes me sad and mad at the same time.
> 
> And, i think any dog show that allows such a dog to continue competing is a shame to the dog-loving world. If the showing community immediately dqs any dog from competition, maybe fewer dogs would have their voices taken away by owners who are too inconvenienced to have a dog who acts like a dog.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Agreed.* I do not care if the pup is a 'show dog' or not, this is abuse.
Click to expand...

 
Bullshit.

Exactly how is it abusive? Because you don't like the way the dog sounds after it's bark is quietened?


----------



## Big Black Dog

I've never heard of such a thing...  Thought I had heard everything but I guess not.


----------



## Zander

koshergrl said:


> That's called harassment, and it's generally frowned upon.



Yes, but it would make me feel better, before the arrest at least.... 
Anyway,  I think it's sick. What's next? Removing a Cat's claws so they can't scratch your precious furniture?? .....oh wait....

Seriously though, send me the number.....


----------



## Thorgasm

koshergrl said:


> When did you get the impression I didn't address it?



When you said he* is* aggressive and dominant.


----------



## koshergrl

Thorgasm said:


> koshergrl said:
> 
> 
> 
> When did you get the impression I didn't address it?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> When you said he* is* aggressive and dominant.
Click to expand...


And...saying that he is aggressive and dominant means I don't address it?

Oh, ok.


----------



## koshergrl

BTW, Mr. Observant, the terrier is a She.


----------



## koshergrl

I'm still waiting for someone to tell me exactly how it's abuse to reduce a dog's bark...

But not abuse to cut his nuts or her fallopian tubes.


----------



## techieny

What's next a surgery to stop it from shitting? Pathetic.  Poor creature!


----------



## Thorgasm

koshergrl said:


> Thorgasm said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> koshergrl said:
> 
> 
> 
> When did you get the impression I didn't address it?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> When you said he* is* aggressive and dominant.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> And...saying that he is aggressive and dominant means I don't address it?
> 
> Oh, ok.
Click to expand...


If you had addressed it he would not longer be aggressive.


----------



## Thorgasm

koshergrl said:


> BTW, Mr. Observant, the terrier is a She.



My mistake. 

How often do you walk her?


----------



## koshergrl

Thorgasm said:


> koshergrl said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thorgasm said:
> 
> 
> 
> When you said he* is* aggressive and dominant.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And...saying that he is aggressive and dominant means I don't address it?
> 
> Oh, ok.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> If you had addressed it he would not longer be aggressive.
Click to expand...


Nope, wrong again.

"

Parson  Russell Terriers are often aggressive with other dogs if they are not  neutered or spayed.  This small terrier is well known for same-sex  aggression and aggression towards other breeds of dogs.  One should be  wary about permiting more than two PRTs to stay together unattended.  I  can recount numerous stories of disastrous results of such folly.  For  example, one woman left four intact female PRTs at home in the house  while she went shopping. When she returned home, she had three dead PRTs  and one live one  the six-month-old puppy of one of the dead bitches."
PRTs are well known for aggression, it's a breed trait. I would  never leave a PRT with another dog her own size or smaller; I would never leave her alone with ANY size of terrier. The only dog I can leave her alone with is my saint bernard, and only outside. Otherwise they tear the house apart, and anything smaller she'd either kill...or would kill her.


It doesn't go away. You can control it, but you aren't going to *fix* it. 

"Taking a PRT off lead is always a dangerous situation, unless you are in a safe environment with secure boundaries. "

JackRussellPups

Right now I take her on walks every day. We go fast, and we go late when we aren't likely to see other dogs, because when she sees other dogs she tries to get them. She has done this all her life. She's had the training but ultimately, this is her. I can have her 100 percent focused on me and being obedient...and the second something changes she's right there. When we see other dogs we just keep going and she's fine once we're past, but for as long as we're approaching and passing, she's barking, hitting the end of the leash, trying to get to them. Once we're past we're onto the next thing.

It's funny because I run into other parson/jack owners and they're in the exact same boat, lol. They park their cars in isolated areas and scope out the area to make sure there are no other dogs around before they get out. We wave at each other, from a distance, and laugh. This is the deal, it's what they are. You recognize it and embrace it and deal with it, or you're going to end up with a dead terrier and all sorts of other dead animals.​


----------



## Thorgasm

koshergrl said:


> I'm still waiting for someone to tell me exactly how it's abuse to reduce a dog's bark...
> 
> But not abuse to cut his nuts or her fallopian tubes.





> Canine devocalization should only be performed by qualified, licensed veterinarians as a final alternative after behavioral modification efforts to correct excessive vocalization have failed.
> 
> Animal Welfare AVMA policy - Canine Devocalization



You were evasive when I inquired about alternative methods and started attacking me. Your defiance shows you have something to hide.


----------



## Thorgasm

koshergrl said:


> Thorgasm said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> koshergrl said:
> 
> 
> 
> And...saying that he is aggressive and dominant means I don't address it?
> 
> Oh, ok.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If you had addressed it he would not longer be aggressive.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Nope, wrong again.
> 
> "
> 
> [FONT='Comic Sans MS', Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Parson  Russell Terriers are often aggressive with other dogs if they are not  neutered or spayed.  This small terrier is well known for same-sex  aggression and aggression towards other breeds of dogs.  One should be  wary about permiting more than two PRTs to stay together unattended.  I  can recount numerous stories of disastrous results of such folly.  For  example, one woman left four intact female PRTs at home in the house  while she went shopping. When she returned home, she had three dead PRTs  and one live one  the six-month-old puppy of one of the dead bitches."[/FONT]
> PRTs are well known for aggression, it's a breed trait.
> 
> 
> It doesn't go away. You can control it, but you aren't going to *fix* it.
> 
> "[FONT='Comic Sans MS', Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Taking a PRT off lead is always a dangerous situation, unless you are in a safe environment with secure boundaries. "[/FONT]
> 
> 
> 
> JackRussellPups
> ​
Click to expand...


If you are the pack leader, they will listen to you. That's the key.


----------



## BDBoop

Somebody has a jack russell terrorist!?


----------



## koshergrl

She is getting better, though. It's a long-term thing. They're really long lived...and the older they get, the better they get. But you have to make accomodations for them, because they aren't like labs, and saints, or even German Shepherds. Pit bulls are easier to deal with...a pit's first instinct is to do what his owner wants him to do...that's hardwired in them. A parson's first instinct is to kill.


----------



## koshergrl

Thorgasm said:


> koshergrl said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm still waiting for someone to tell me exactly how it's abuse to reduce a dog's bark...
> 
> But not abuse to cut his nuts or her fallopian tubes.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Canine devocalization should only be performed by qualified, licensed veterinarians as a final alternative after behavioral modification efforts to correct excessive vocalization have failed.
> 
> Animal Welfare AVMA policy - Canine Devocalization
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You were evasive when I inquired about alternative methods and started attacking me. Your defiance shows you have something to hide.
Click to expand...


Ho hum, I was right, you're a nutcase. I wasn't evasive about anything, loon.


----------



## koshergrl

BDBoop said:


> Somebody has a jack russell terrorist!?



Willow does.
I have a Parson Russell Terrorist.

My cuz has Rat Terrorists.

My son has a Pit Bull Terrorist.

Of them all, mine's the most terrifying....I think the pit is probably the sweetest. I don't know Willow's, he's still a pup...but he'd be hard pressed to be sweeter than Snooper Pooper.


----------



## koshergrl

I think pics are in order.


----------



## koshergrl

This is what we were doing last Friday.


----------



## koshergrl




----------



## Thorgasm

koshergrl said:


> Ho hum, I was right, you're a nutcase. I wasn't evasive about anything, loon.



Quoting the AVMA makes me a nutcase?  That's rich. 

Here's some more insanity for you:



> The Parson Russell Terrier is a cheerful, merry, devoted, and loving dog.  Spirited and obedient, yet absolutely fearless.  Careful and amusing, he enjoys games and playing with toys.  Stable Parson's are friendly and generally kind to children. Children should be taught not to tease or hit the dog.  They are intelligent, and if you let them take an inch, they can become willful and determined to take a mile. It is paramount that you are this dogs pack leader. He needs to be given rules to follow, and limitations as to what he is and is not allowed to do. Do not let this little dog fall into Small Dog Syndrome, where he believes he is pack leader to all humans. This is where varying degrees of behavior problems will arise, including, but not limited to guarding, snapping, separation anxiety, and obsessive barking. They are highly trainable, able to perform impressive tricks. They have been used on TV and in the movies. However, if you do not show authority towards the dog , they can be difficult to train. They need a firm, experienced trainer.  Parsons who have been allowed to take over can be aggressive with other dogs. Some have killed or been killed in dog fights.  Be sure to socialize the Parson. They have strong hunting instincts (stronger than your average terrier) and should not be trusted with other small animals. They like to chase and explore. Be careful not to let them off the lead unless they are very well-trained.  Parson Russells like to bark and dig. They tend to get restless and destructive if not kept fruitfully occupied and well exercised.  Parson Russells climb, which means they can climb over a fence, they also jump. A Parson that stands 12 inches high can easily jump five feet. JRTs are not the breed for a inexperienced dog owner. The owner needs to be as strong-willed as they are, or this little guy will take over.  With the right owner the Parson can really excel, but is not recommended for those who do not understand what it means to be a dogs true pack leader. Parsons who are mentally stable, with all of their canine instincts met, will not display these negative behaviors. They are not traits of the Parson Russell, but rather human brought on behaviors, which are a result of inefficient leadership, along with a lack of mental and physical stimulation. They will thrive with a job to do. The Parson Russell Terrier must present a lively, active and alert appearance. It should impress with its fearless and happy disposition. It should be remembered that the Parson Russell is a working terrier and should retain these instincts. Nervousness, cowardice or over-aggressiveness should be discouraged and it should always appear confident.
> 
> Parson Russell Terrier Information and Pictures, Parson Russell Terriers



I'll go take my psycotropic meds now.


----------



## koshergrl

Snooper the Pooper.


----------



## Thorgasm

koshergrl said:


>



You have beautiful dogs.


----------



## koshergrl

Thorgasm said:


> koshergrl said:
> 
> 
> 
> Ho hum, I was right, you're a nutcase. I wasn't evasive about anything, loon.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Quoting the AVMA makes me a nutcase?  That's rich.
> 
> Here's some more insanity for you:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Parson Russell Terrier is a cheerful, merry, devoted, and loving dog.  Spirited and obedient, yet absolutely fearless.  Careful and amusing, he enjoys games and playing with toys.  Stable Parson's are friendly and generally kind to children. Children should be taught not to tease or hit the dog.  They are intelligent, and if you let them take an inch, they can become willful and determined to take a mile. It is paramount that you are this dogs pack leader. He needs to be given rules to follow, and limitations as to what he is and is not allowed to do. Do not let this little dog fall into Small Dog Syndrome, where he believes he is pack leader to all humans. This is where varying degrees of behavior problems will arise, including, but not limited to guarding, snapping, separation anxiety, and obsessive barking. They are highly trainable, able to perform impressive tricks. They have been used on TV and in the movies. However, if you do not show authority towards the dog , they can be difficult to train. They need a firm, experienced trainer.  Parsons who have been allowed to take over can be aggressive with other dogs. Some have killed or been killed in dog fights.  Be sure to socialize the Parson. They have strong hunting instincts (stronger than your average terrier) and should not be trusted with other small animals. They like to chase and explore. Be careful not to let them off the lead unless they are very well-trained.  Parson Russells like to bark and dig. They tend to get restless and destructive if not kept fruitfully occupied and well exercised.  Parson Russells climb, which means they can climb over a fence, they also jump. A Parson that stands 12 inches high can easily jump five feet. JRTs are not the breed for a inexperienced dog owner. The owner needs to be as strong-willed as they are, or this little guy will take over.  With the right owner the Parson can really excel, but is not recommended for those who do not understand what it means to be a dogs true pack leader. Parsons who are mentally stable, with all of their canine instincts met, will not display these negative behaviors. They are not traits of the Parson Russell, but rather human brought on behaviors, which are a result of inefficient leadership, along with a lack of mental and physical stimulation. They will thrive with a job to do. The Parson Russell Terrier must present a lively, active and alert appearance. It should impress with its fearless and happy disposition. It should be remembered that the Parson Russell is a working terrier and should retain these instincts. Nervousness, cowardice or over-aggressiveness should be discouraged and it should always appear confident.
> 
> Parson Russell Terrier Information and Pictures, Parson Russell Terriers
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I'll go take my psycotropic meds now.
Click to expand...


Please do.

Quoting doesn't make you a nutcase.

Going off the deep end does. 

Psst...my dog is happy, I already said that.

She's also high maintenance. You couldn't handle her, I'm fairly certain. Your disposition is too unstable.


----------



## koshergrl

Rat terrorists:


----------



## koshergrl

Thorgasm said:


> koshergrl said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You have beautiful dogs.
Click to expand...


Lol..look out, Mylo's gonna get you! DON'T SHOW WEAKNESS! AVERT AVERT AVERT YOUR EYES! PROTECT YOUR THROAT! Ohhhh the humanity! lol..thanks, we love them lots.


----------



## Thorgasm

koshergrl said:


> Please do.
> 
> Quoting doesn't make you a nutcase.
> 
> Going off the deep end does.
> 
> Psst...my dog is happy, I already said that.
> 
> She's also high maintenance. You couldn't handle her, I'm fairly certain. Your disposition is too unstable.



I'll try to stay in the shallow end for ya.


----------



## BillyV

*Sigh* So much self-righteousness in this thread that Im not sure I want to join the discussion. We have five cats, all of which were rescue cats. Now when I say rescue cats I dont mean that we went to the local shelter and picked out the prettiest one; I mean all but one of these were kittens at two to three weeks old found in parking lots and bushes with no mother or any other visible means of support (my daughter is a cat lover; we just dont let her go near parking lots or bushes anymore!). Each had to be fed from a bottle for the first two or three weeks we owned them. The fifth came when she found a pregnant cat (very young, surely less than one year) who had her litter in our house; we kept one of the three kittens and found good homes for the other two and the mother. All five of these cats are declawed, the last two by laser surgery (expensive, but more humane Im told). I dont feel the least bit guilty about trading their front claws for the privilege to live in our home; none of them would have survived their 4th week if we hadnt intervened. I can tell you that it is very unlikely that I would have made the commitment to take on the responsibility of these pets if I was unable to declaw them; I would not be willing to have them destroy my house and furniture. With all the cats and dogs destroyed every year because they are unwanted, why in the world would you want to make it more difficult for them to coexist with people? What do you think happens to animals that cant coexist? They are taken to the shelter (best case) or driven to a remote location and dropped off. At the shelter their chance of being adopted is minimal, especially those older than the kitten or puppy stage; at some point they are put down. Domestic animals left to fend for themselves dont do any better. Are you seriously advocating making it more likely for an animal to be killed than some minor alteration that allows them to survive and live a good life? That doesnt sound like the attitude of an animal lover to me.


----------



## koshergrl

Bingo.

I haven't debarked my dog, but I have considered it, just because her bark is so ear splitting, disruptive, and frequent. 

But we handle it. I'm actually looking for different digs to accommodate my stupid dogs at this point. We live in a lovely house, in a nice neighborhood...but the dogs would be better served a little further out, so that's what we're looking for. It might take a while to find something, but we are looking.

Last night my daughter washed the back sliding glass door, and didn't lock it when she was done, so my saint opened the door and in a flash both dogs were out the door and down the street, stopping traffic, terrorizing elderly dog walkers.

I followed in my rig, and bless Mylo's heart she came right to me and got in...I let the big boy run...I held the leash out the window and he ran alongside the car to our house, lol, breezed him a little. I might do that every day, it's a lot more effective than me trying to wear him out on my own stumps. I keep meaning to teach him to run with me on the bike but I'm terrified he'll yank me over. In fact, I know he will.


----------

