# Algebra and Geometry now required for High School graduation! What do you think?



## Middleman (Sep 8, 2010)

I went to my daughter's orientation for incoming Freshmen at her high school. They mentioned that new standards required the completion of Algebra and Geometry for High School graduation.

I was surprised. When I went to school we took those courses as prereqs for college. Now, my kids are all pretty good to excellent at math. One of my sons won 12th place in the State Math bowl, and is basically a math genius. 

But, what use, actually, is it for many people to know geometry and algebra? Some people struggle in math, in spite of being very capable. 

I wonder, also, if High School has not become too college-prep oriented. One of my sons went to Technical College and has done very well in the Refrigeration/Heating/Air Conditioning field, making good money. What about so many other fields of endeavor that our High Schools seem to ignore? 

What do you all think of this subject?


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## AllieBaba (Sep 8, 2010)

We had to have algebra and geometry to graduate from high school when I went...and that was in the 80s.

Algebra and geometry apply themselves to all things. They really do. You don't realize it until you learn them, though, and I'm not good enough to explain it.


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## Middleman (Sep 8, 2010)

AllieBaba said:


> We had to have algebra and geometry to graduate from high school when I went...and that was in the 80s.
> 
> Algebra and geometry apply themselves to all things. They really do. You don't realize it until you learn them, though, and I'm not good enough to explain it.



What State did you graduate in?


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## AllieBaba (Sep 8, 2010)

Oregon.


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## AllieBaba (Sep 8, 2010)

I took Algebra in the 8th grade, then took geometry in the 9th, I think. Then I took Algebra again, in h.s. this time.


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## SFC Ollie (Sep 8, 2010)

I had 4 years of Algebra, and used it a lot working in Communications.

Geometry I can see uses for all over the place. Even in the kitchen. 

How many tomatoes can we can in a quart jar...........


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## AllieBaba (Sep 8, 2010)

Computer brains are algebra incarnate.


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## blu (Sep 8, 2010)

umm i would hope its required. in good high schools calculus is taken in the senior year as well


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## AllieBaba (Sep 8, 2010)

I don't think it's required, however.


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## Middleman (Sep 8, 2010)

Interesting. I've taken both courses, plus in college. Algebra was useful in Chemistry. Geometry was just fun and interesting to me, like doing Sudoku. 

I graduated from a top public High School, in a wealthy, academically high achieving community in the 1970s, and Geometry and Algebra were not graduation requirements. Most people took them because they were required by colleges admissions standards.


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## Samson (Sep 8, 2010)

Having a BS Chem Engr, and Secondary Certification to teach Math, Physics, and Chemistry in Texas, as well as having worked in both fields, and having kids taking Algebra and Geometry, plus having worked in the capacity of a public school administrator, raising the graduation standards for Public High School is a GOAL.

Given any goal, there will be pessimists and optimists.

Frankly, I lean toward pessimism, but not heavily.

On the one hand, I approve of raising goals.

On the other hand, I don't see making silk purses out of sows ears as being a realistic goal.

Parents, including myself, want their kids to take a LOT of MATH, in hopes that they will be part of the HIGHLY SKILLED workforce that will be the only individuals that will be employable in the future. We, including myself, will not stop short of diluding ourselves in our belief that the fruit of our loins are capable.

The public school responds to parents, and adds the courses to the curriculum......but, who teaches the classes? Do good teachers take the extraordinary battery of college math courses needed to become certified? After taking all the math necessary to get an engineering degree I had to take _ANOTHER_ math class to be certified!!!! WTF?

And then public schools expect to retain math teachers in an economy that pays them X2 or X3 if they work in private industry?

This in only the tip of the iceberg of problems that arise when you increase the graduation requirements with additional math classes.


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## Middleman (Sep 8, 2010)

Well said Samson.


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## Middleman (Sep 8, 2010)

I don't, however, agree that Geometry and Algebra are pre-reqs to obtain a well-paid job. There are many fields that don't require mastery of this facet of academia.


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## jillian (Sep 8, 2010)

Middleman said:


> AllieBaba said:
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i went to high school in nyc and i took algebra and geometry and had to do regents in both. that might have been the particular program i was in, though. i don't know what the basic requirements were for graduation


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## Samson (Sep 8, 2010)

Middleman said:


> I don't, however, agree that Geometry and Algebra are pre-reqs to obtain a well-paid job. There are many fields that don't require mastery of this facet of academia.



I'm going on information published recently, predicting that after this recession, job growth will be limited to those that are Highly Skilled or menial labors, with few jobs in between.

I also agree that Mastery of Geometry is not necessary to become a lawyer (athough the logic taught is a plus) or Physician, or even an Engineer.

However, we're talking about what the PUBLIC thinks. The PUBLIC equates raising the bar on PUBLIC High School Graduation requirements in MATH with a more highly skilled graduate. Whether or not this is a fact is quite immaterial.


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## Samson (Sep 8, 2010)

jillian said:


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Well, you are extraordinary, regardless of whatever program public school may have offered.


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## jillian (Sep 8, 2010)

Samson said:


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awwww... shucks. lol.. 

you're just sayin' that.


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## Foxfyre (Sep 8, 2010)

Because my parents moved one summer when I was away from home, I attended two different highschools.  In both schools, Algebra I and Geometry were part of the core curriculum and required for all students to graduate.  Ditto for when my kids were in school.  I guess it never occurred to me that those were not requirements for graduation these days.


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## Samson (Sep 8, 2010)

jillian said:


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To an extent....but in a broader sense, I'm serious: The very small fraction of the population that passes through public high school to excel in colleges and universities, and then to become the most productive citizens, often are the product of circumstance and excellent genetics that impart both emotional and intellectual intelligence. 

These qualities are quite independent of public school offerings.


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## HUGGY (Sep 8, 2010)

Middleman said:


> I went to my daughter's orientation for incoming Freshmen at her high school. They mentioned that new standards required the completion of Algebra and Geometry for High School graduation.
> 
> I was surprised. When I went to school we took those courses as prereqs for college. Now, my kids are all pretty good to excellent at math. One of my sons won 12th place in the State Math bowl, and is basically a math genius.
> 
> ...



Stop telling your kids Geometry and Algebra are hard.  They are not.  They are as useful as figuring gas mileage and knowing how much paint to cover the outside of your house.  A few simple rules.  Easier than adding a colume of numbers.  People use simple rules every day.  Do you use your toaster to open a can of chili?  Simple rule...use the can opener.  Same thing.


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## Samson (Sep 8, 2010)

HUGGY said:


> Middleman said:
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> > I went to my daughter's orientation for incoming Freshmen at her high school. They mentioned that new standards required the completion of Algebra and Geometry for High School graduation.
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See, Huggy could teach Geometry and Algebra in a Public School.

Have you considered it?


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## HUGGY (Sep 8, 2010)

Samson said:


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Children are annoying.  It's all I can do to talk to you guys!


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## Samson (Sep 8, 2010)

Foxfyre said:


> Because my parents moved one summer when I was away from home, .....



POOR FOXFYRE!!!!

Were you able to track them down after they escaped?


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## jillian (Sep 8, 2010)

Samson said:


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see, i don't see anything i did as that big a deal because everyone around me was doing the same things. there wasn't any question of us finishing high school. there wasn't any question of us going to college. there wasn't any question that we'd be professionals of some sort. it was pretty much expected. so my theory is that kids meet expectations when they are stretched far but not so far they're broken and when they have confidence in themselves in that regard.

so perhaps my view of public school education is a bit out of the ordinary. my favorite teacher in high school used to say it was something in the water in brooklyn. lol.


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## Samson (Sep 8, 2010)

jillian said:


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I pretty much shared your experience. Only having the perspective of working in the system did I understand what actually happened: First, realise that what we saw, was seen through the eyes of adolescents, notorious for self-absorbed myoptic vision. If we noticed what happened around us further than 20 feet away, it was an event of amazing perception.

We were grouped, either by nature or systematic design with students with similar traits, and we were completely oblivious of 90% of the rest of the school's population.

As a Teacher, you begin to ....."appreciate" to use an euphamism, the rest of the population, or you quit. Some run screaming away in hysterics, SHOCKED by the unwashed masses crouded into their Geometry class.


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## manu1959 (Sep 8, 2010)

well i took algebra in the 7th and 8th grade and geometry in 9th then calculus and the was in the 70's....

buck up....


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## jillian (Sep 8, 2010)

Samson said:


> I pretty much shared your experience. Only having the perspective of working in the system did I understand what actually happened: First, realise that what we saw, was seen through the eyes of adolescents, notorious for self-absorbed myoptic vision. If we noticed what happened around us further than 20 feet away, it was an event of amazing perception.
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> We were grouped, either by nature or systematic design with students with similar traits, and we were completely oblivious of 90% of the rest of the school's population.
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> As a Teacher, you begin to ....."appreciate" to use an euphamism, the rest of the population, or you quit. Some run screaming away in hysterics, SHOCKED by the unwashed masses crouded into their Geometry class.



There's probably a lot of truth to that. Never having taught, I don't know how much truth.I suspect it could have just been the neighborhood in which i grew up had families in it who were similar in nature. 

What I can say as a parent to a child getting ready to test for high school, the fear of not being able to keep your child cloistered among academically similar kids is pretty overwhelming at times.

As to the math issue, though, sadly, the last math class i ever took was trigonometry in my junior year of high school. i've always been sorry that i had a pre-determined idea that it wasn't something that would be useful for me.


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## geauxtohell (Sep 8, 2010)

Middleman said:


> I went to my daughter's orientation for incoming Freshmen at her high school. They mentioned that new standards required the completion of Algebra and Geometry for High School graduation.
> 
> I was surprised. When I went to school we took those courses as prereqs for college. Now, my kids are all pretty good to excellent at math. One of my sons won 12th place in the State Math bowl, and is basically a math genius.
> 
> ...



Thank God.

If you can't do algebra, you don't deserve a H.S. diploma.


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## Samson (Sep 8, 2010)

HUGGY said:


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Hey, you get a full two MONTHS off during the summer, and a week for Fall break, TWO WEEKS for Christmas, and another week for Spring break, plus all sorts of ridiculous "Teacher Work Days" and Federal Holidays.......plenty of time to still post on USMB!!!


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## HUGGY (Sep 8, 2010)

HuGGY's Algebra/Geometry class...  

First day.  HUGGY addresses students.

"I don't like you either!.... Let's make this as brief as possible."

"To prevent you from appearing foolish in front of your boyfiends/girlfriends by being constantly cheated out of what little money you have you will first learn to count...IE add.  Good!  Now to know how much you have left after you have wasted some of your money you will learn how to subtract.  You have less than you did a few minutes ago..Good!

You have been told to mow the lawn.  You need to figure out how long this hellish chore will take so you can get together with you stupid friends.  Good!  Now you understand geometry.  

You want to know how much you can make by taking a front of a pound of weed and break it down to dime bags and pay off your dealer.  Didn't take long right?  Good! You understand algerba.  Good!  Class dismissed!  Now go away."


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## Samson (Sep 8, 2010)

jillian said:


> What I can say as a parent to a child getting ready to test for high school, the fear of not being able to keep your child cloistered among academically similar kids is pretty overwhelming at times.



heh......its no less overwhelming for teachers.

Some teachers appreciate keeping children "cloistered among similar kids"

Note, I have omitted "academically."

Perhaps you already know why..............?


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## Madeline (Sep 8, 2010)

jillian said:


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My kidlet later told me she was astounded when, in her senior year of HS, other kids told her college was optional.  She had been raised to believe it was mandatory....in our family, it is.

I grew up in NY as well, and I still think it's the best public ed system in the country.  That regents' diploma nearly killed me -- especially the math -- but at the time, we also had a very strong voc ed track and those kids were clearly working their asses off to graduate as well.

How hard math is for any kid is (in part) a function of their anxiety level (I am not good in math, blah blah blah) and the teacher they have.   I had a new one half-way through Geometry and immediately ceased learning what had been fairly easy stuff to digest.


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## Samson (Sep 8, 2010)

Madeline said:


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Math is a language that very few speak, but everyone listens to


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## lizzie (Sep 8, 2010)

I think it's a good idea. When I was in high school (in the Dark Ages) we had to have two years of algebra or one of algebra and one of geometry. It doesn't sound to me like standards have risen at all, but this would make it the same as 35 years ago. No problem with that imo.


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## rdean (Sep 8, 2010)

I can't believe what I'm hearing.

I graduated from Ygnacio Valley High School in California in the 60's.  
I had to take Algebra 1 in the 7th grade.
Geometry in the 8th.
Algebra II in the 9th
and Elementary Functions in the 10th.
Chemistry, biology and physiology were required.

When I went into the Service, I was 82 Charlie, which is a "forward observer".  The main "weapon" was a "theodolite".  The "job" was nothing but geometry.






The burning question is, if you are going to grade school and high school and don't take math, what is it you do take?  Why even go?


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## American Horse (Sep 8, 2010)

Algebra enables the individual to reduce mathematical questions into formulae so as to much more readily distill out an answer.  There is a discipline to algebra that is probably unmatched by other courses in high school.  The answers are in the back of the book, but mean nothing to those who don't pursue those answers by learning and correctly following the theorems; answers must be proven, not just copied from the back pages. 

Algebra combined with geometry and trigonometry (less so trig) prepares many a student for technical work after high-school if they choose not to pursue higher education.  Though it wasn't required I had five semesters of both algebra and geometry, and some trig, physics and chemistry. After 4-years military service (as a communicator/cryptogropher) I was able to move into a job as an industrial engineer in a major US corporation without a formal degree, and get full engineer status after four years of OJT.

Later as a land developer and builder, I felt that nothing served me as well as my algebra and geometry, which I used almost every day, and still do at least once a week.

The concept of mathematics seems to have been "downgraded" over the years such that today we say "do the math" when we actually mean to "do the arithmetic."  This phrase suggests that people are doing mathematics when they do simple adding, subtracting, multiplying, and dividing, which are just the basics to math, not math at all.  It's a little like thinking of astrology as astronomy, or that galaxies might be reachable.  it's a failure of the sense of proportion, and proportion is the basis for all sound judgements.


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## Quantum Windbag (Sep 8, 2010)

rdean said:


> I can't believe what I'm hearing.
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> I graduated from Ygnacio Valley High School in California in the 60's.
> I had to take Algebra 1 in the 7th grade.
> ...



You make me glad I went to school in Texas, because those asshole right wingers hate education. 

I studied algebra in 5th grade, was doing basic trig in 6th. I had to do it again in high school, but had the option of taking them both at the same time. I was learning calculus during my sophomore year because the class was so small they stuck it into the same room as the trig class. By the time I was a senior I was doing independent study (computer programming) and taking a college level freshman chemistry and advanced physics. I do not accurately remember the graduation requirements, but I am pretty sure it involved both algebra and geometry, even if I thought those particular classes were grade school level courses.

Hurray for the 6% of scientists that actually use their brains.


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## Foxfyre (Sep 9, 2010)

Samson said:


> Foxfyre said:
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Yeah.  They couldn't elude me forever.      I used to like to say they sent me to the store for a loaf of bread and moved while I was gone.  

My brother-in-law, RIP, was a brilliant football coach and later distinguished himself as a beloved highschool principle and then Superintendent of Schools.  But in one school when he was coaching, he was required to teach at least one academic class.  And because he had a minor in math--how he got it I don't have a clue and never asked--he was given a first year algebra class to teach.  He didn't know the first thing about algebra and my sister was also terrible in math.  So there I was, a tenth grader one year out of algebra myself, making out his lesson plans, putting together quizes and exams, and grading his papers.

I am proud to say though that at least two of those kids I got to help teach back then are now PhDs in the sciences.  So I guess we didn't ruin them for life.


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## L.K.Eder (Sep 9, 2010)

algebra and geometry!

what's next?

gramma?


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## Luissa (Sep 9, 2010)

I think we had to have Algebra. 
I know I took Algebra and Geometry. I suck at graphing.


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## Article 15 (Sep 9, 2010)

IIRC, we had to have Geometry and Algebra II passed to graduate HS.


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## Dr.Traveler (Sep 9, 2010)

AllieBaba said:


> I took Algebra in the 8th grade, then took geometry in the 9th, I think. Then I took Algebra again, in h.s. this time.



Ditto for me.

I'm not sure how you can be a functioning member of society without these topics.  Both teach you rigorous and logical thought, and both have practicaly applications in every day life.

Its funny, but as I teach things about the Cartesian plane in my classes I reference high school geometry all the time with the students.  They get sick of me pushing geometry.


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## Dr.Traveler (Sep 9, 2010)

Samson said:


> Math is a language that very few speak, but everyone listens to



I'm tempted to sig line this.  Mathematics is everywhere in the world.  Where we've failed educationally is that students leave school without understanding that fact.


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## Article 15 (Sep 9, 2010)

Dr.Traveler said:


> AllieBaba said:
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Pretty much every math course I've taken has some geometry or trig in it.


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## Dr.Traveler (Sep 9, 2010)

Article 15 said:


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I'm amazed by how few students catch on to that.  That's why I've specifically started mentioning when I use Geometry in a course.  And Trig has applications all over the place.


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## bodecea (Sep 9, 2010)

Middleman said:


> I went to my daughter's orientation for incoming Freshmen at her high school. They mentioned that new standards required the completion of Algebra and Geometry for High School graduation.
> 
> I was surprised. When I went to school we took those courses as prereqs for college. Now, my kids are all pretty good to excellent at math. One of my sons won 12th place in the State Math bowl, and is basically a math genius.
> 
> ...




It's a one-size fits all world in public ed now....and then they wonder why kids drop out.


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## bodecea (Sep 9, 2010)

jillian said:


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Regents is college prep.

I don't believe those who say that algebra/geometry was a requirement for graduation....I do believe it was a requirement to graduate as college prep tho.

But many states are getting rid of General Ed classes, vocational classes, etc.   You can't cut college prep, you eventually drop out.   Shocker.


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## Samson (Sep 9, 2010)

American Horse said:


> The concept of mathematics seems to have been "downgraded" over the years such that today we say "do the math" when we actually mean to "do the arithmetic."  This phrase suggests that people are doing mathematics when they do simple adding, subtracting, multiplying, and dividing, which are just the basics to math, not math at all.  It's a little like thinking of astrology as astronomy, or that galaxies might be reachable. * it's a failure of the sense of proportion, and proportion is the basis for all sound judgements*.





Dr.Traveler said:


> Where we've failed educationally is that students leave school without understanding that fact.



Very perceptive comments: One, speaks to a lacking in curriculum, which leads to students simply not understanding how the subject is applied, and therefore, not caring whether or not they learn it.

The absence of applied mathematics is readily apparent when we see students learning how to add fractions over the course of several years (often throughout middle school, and even the first semester of freshman Algebra). _Guess what?_ Adding fractions is about as useful as learning to use a slide rule. 

Instead, there should be a much greater emphasis on *Statistics*, the "sense of proportion," previously mentioned. It is this body of Math upon which the public is expected to make intelligent social choices, and which can be most easily manipulated to garner false conclusions; e.g. If one student passes a test one year, and two students pass the next, then the passing rate can be "advertised" as a 100% increase!!

But why don't public schools teach this? It isn't because there is some silly conspiracy to keep the public in the dark.

It is because teachers _themselves_ don't understand the subject. Indeed administrators, often ex-coaches, don't get it either, and parents are simply thrilled to see Buffy and Miff adding fractions better than they could.


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## Foxfyre (Sep 9, 2010)

I don't know what happened to my very coherent post I typed out a few miinutes ago but it isn't there.   I HATE when that happens.

But what I was saying is that believe it or not, first year algebra and geometry as well as two years of science were core curriculum when I and my kids were in school.  And since I use aspects of all in daily life now, I can't see why such should not be part of basic education.   College prep included advanced math and science if your major required it.  Mine did not so I focused more on English, history, social studies/government etc. which was more useful for my college major.   Kids who were not college bound were able to take any number of vocational classes from typing, shorthand, bookkeeping, shop, etc. etc. that enabled them to find gainful employment after graduation.  (I took some of those too so I could put myself through college.)   Except for the basic core curriculum of useful subjects, school was not 'one size fits all'.

But dammit, what's so terrible about giving kids basic skills and knowledge and critical thinking skills that they are going to need regardless of what they do after school?   Everybody needs basic math skills.  Kids these days can't even make change if a register doesn't show them how much to return to the customer.  So many are barely literate and as for requirements of reading comprehension and analysis of what they read, forget it.   I think that's criminal.

And still, I hear those teachers here in real life and here on the message board who are obviously committed and dedicated educators who despair of doing little more than coping with some of the kids.  I blame social engineering that gives kids too many 'rights' as opposed to subjecting them to authority.  I blame a society of latchkey kids in which the adults are too busy to get involved in school activities--also some ultra liberal educators who don't WANT parents involved in what they are teaching. 

And while I know what the answer is, I don't know how to put it back into the equation.  I'm guessing there's somebody out there who does though.


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## lizzie (Sep 9, 2010)

Foxfyre said:


> And still, I hear those teachers here in real life and here on the message board who are obviously committed and dedicated educators who despair of doing little more than coping with some of the kids. *I blame social engineering that gives kids too many 'rights' as opposed to subjecting them to authority. I blame a society of latchkey kids in which the adults are too busy to get involved in school activities--also some ultra liberal educators who don't WANT parents involved in what they are teaching*.
> 
> And while I know what the answer is, I don't know how to put it back into the equation. I'm guessing there's somebody out there who does though.


 
Exactly the way I see it, but the answer can't be put back into the equation, because young parents today don't have the ability to look back and see what has happened, as you and I are able to.


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## Cecilie1200 (Sep 9, 2010)

Middleman said:


> I went to my daughter's orientation for incoming Freshmen at her high school. They mentioned that new standards required the completion of Algebra and Geometry for High School graduation.
> 
> I was surprised. When I went to school we took those courses as prereqs for college. Now, my kids are all pretty good to excellent at math. One of my sons won 12th place in the State Math bowl, and is basically a math genius.
> 
> ...



College prep?  Algebra and geometry?!  Where the hell did YOU go to school?  Where I went to school, we began learning geometry in the seventh grade and algebra in the eighth.  It was considered basic education.  At my local community college, they're considered remedial math, taken by people who don't meet the minimum requirements for the basic general ed courses on their degree program.

What use are they for most people?  Gee, I don't know.  Ever try to carpet a bedroom and figure out how much you need?  Or do you just pay extra to have someone else handle it?  I used geometry not that long ago to plan a vegetable garden for my yard.  Yeah, I could pay a gardener to do it, but why?  And basic algebraic principles are applied every time you work an equation requiring you to find a variable.  I do it several times a day without even thinking about it.  We're not talking about rocket science here.


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## Middleman (Sep 9, 2010)

I'm wonder why Algebra and Geometry are considered 'core' courses, but culinary arts, child development, basic carpentry, are not. I believe the latter are really more applicable to daily living. 

Also, I'm continually amazed that my teenagers lack certain basic knowledge in Math, Geography, etc, yet all this emphasis on algebra? I got an A in algebra and geometry, but frankly, don't see much use for it for most professions. Yes, it gives one a better understanding of the universe, but in daily living basic Math really does suffice. And, as Foxfyre point out, our young people are often lacking in those basic skills.


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## Samson (Sep 9, 2010)

Foxfyre said:


> I don't know what happened to my very coherent post I typed out a few miinutes ago but it isn't there.   I HATE when that happens.
> 
> But what I was saying is that believe it or not, first year algebra and geometry as well as two years of science were core curriculum when I and my kids were in school.  And since I use aspects of all in daily life now, I can't see why such should not be part of basic education.   College prep included advanced math and science if your major required it.  Mine did not so I focused more on English, history, social studies/government etc. which was more useful for my college major.   Kids who were not college bound were able to take any number of vocational classes from typing, shorthand, bookkeeping, shop, etc. etc. that enabled them to find gainful employment after graduation.  (I took some of those too so I could put myself through college.)   Except for the basic core curriculum of useful subjects, school was not 'one size fits all'.
> 
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Well, the lost post didn't slow you down one beat did it?

Obviously, you learned to type better than me.

Blaming "Society" is blaming ourselves: Homeschooling is an option, and so is private school, but if you want to change PUBLIC school, then you need to be more dedicated than either of these options.

But to address the matter at hand, MATH, you gotta have people in Public Education that not only understand MATH, but also how it is applied. These people are not found in public education because they get paid ENORMOUS AMOUNTS of $$$$ to find work elsewhere.

What we DO find in public education are experts in Social Studies.


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## Samson (Sep 9, 2010)

Middleman said:


> I'm wonder why Algebra and Geometry are considered 'core' courses, but culinary arts, child development, basic carpentry, are not. I believe the latter are really more applicable to daily living.
> 
> Also, I'm continually amazed that my teenagers lack certain basic knowledge in Math, Geography, etc, yet all this emphasis on algebra? I got an A in algebra and geometry, but frankly, don't see much use for it for most professions. Yes, it gives one a better understanding of the universe, but in daily living basic Math really does suffice. And, as Foxfyre point out, our young people are often lacking in those basic skills.



Bah!

WTF are PARENTS teaching at home?

Get your slaves into the kitchen, and give them a friggin' cook book.

During the summer, have them build a goddamn shed. It may take them THREE MONTHS but wtf, they'll learn the BEST WAY: Trial and error.


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## Middleman (Sep 9, 2010)

Cecilie1200 said:


> Middleman said:
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> > I went to my daughter's orientation for incoming Freshmen at her high school. They mentioned that new standards required the completion of Algebra and Geometry for High School graduation.
> ...



Hello, you don't need advanced geometry to plan out a vegetable garden. That would require rather basic math learned by 7th grade.  Or, are they calling that geometry these days? They didn't inflate things back in my day like they do now.


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## Middleman (Sep 9, 2010)

Samson said:


> Middleman said:
> 
> 
> > I'm wonder why Algebra and Geometry are considered 'core' courses, but culinary arts, child development, basic carpentry, are not. I believe the latter are really more applicable to daily living.
> ...



Unfortunately, many people only know have to heat things up in the microwave these days. We have a whole generation lacking knowledge of the culinary arts.


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## Cecilie1200 (Sep 9, 2010)

Middleman said:


> I'm wonder why Algebra and Geometry are considered 'core' courses, but culinary arts, child development, basic carpentry, are not. I believe the latter are really more applicable to daily living.



Perhaps because they figure parents might actually teach their children SOMETHING.  They also don't offer courses in how to use silverware and putting one's pants on one leg at a time.  The kind of "daily living" courses you're describing sound largely like what they teach at schools for the developmentally disabled.

Many high schools offer elective courses in woodshop, by the way, but carpentry isn't a basic life skill like math is.  While it's logical to hire someone to hang a new door in your house when you need it, it's not logical to hire someone to figure out 40% off on a sale every time you go grocery shopping.



Middleman said:


> Also, I'm continually amazed that my teenagers lack certain basic knowledge in Math, Geography, etc, yet all this emphasis on algebra? I got an A in algebra and geometry, but frankly, don't see much use for it for most professions. Yes, it gives one a better understanding of the universe, but in daily living basic Math really does suffice. And, as Foxfyre point out, our young people are often lacking in those basic skills.



WHY do your teenagers lack certain basic knowledge in math?  And no, arithmetic is NOT enough in daily living.  You need the problem solving taught in algebra to figure out how to frame your math problem - whatever it is - correctly so as to apply your arithmetic.


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## Samson (Sep 9, 2010)

Middleman said:


> Samson said:
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So?

If many people wanna microwave their dinner, then why should Public Education use public funding to teach them to bake a cake from scratch?


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## Cecilie1200 (Sep 9, 2010)

Middleman said:


> Cecilie1200 said:
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Hello!  Where did I say "advanced"?  Perhaps you should have spent some more time in English class too, to improve your reading comprehension.

And no, it doesn't "require basic math", dumbass.  It's geography.  Basic geography, but geography nevertheless.  And how advanced it is depends on the topography of the yard.  Maybe "back in your day", someone should have defined "geography" for you so you wouldn't sound like such a fool now.

By the way, Einstein.  You were just bitching and moaning about schools not teaching carpentry.  Perhaps someone should have mentioned to you that carpenters use both the algebra and the geometry that you hold in such contempt.

Moron.


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## Cecilie1200 (Sep 9, 2010)

Middleman said:


> Samson said:
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So teach your kids to cook and stop expecting the schools to fill in all the crap you're too lazy to do, and THEN bitching that they spend the time on ::gasp:: academic studies instead.


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## Middleman (Sep 9, 2010)

They use public funds to teach them how to put on a condom, after all... 

You should see some of the fluff classes they have these days. A bunch of touchy feely female nonsense.


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## Middleman (Sep 9, 2010)

Cecilie1200 said:


> Middleman said:
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Do you know the definition of geography, per chance? 

Hint: it has nothing to do with mathematics...


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## masquerade (Sep 9, 2010)

Middleman said:


> I went to my daughter's orientation for incoming Freshmen at her high school. They mentioned that new standards required the completion of Algebra and Geometry for High School graduation.
> 
> I was surprised. When I went to school we took those courses as prereqs for college. Now, my kids are all pretty good to excellent at math. One of my sons won 12th place in the State Math bowl, and is basically a math genius.
> 
> ...


Mathmatics has always and will always give agida.  I hated it then, I hate it now.

As far as high schools being 'too' college-prep oriented ... I don't have a problem with it.  Mostly because my HS senior is taking 4 AP classes this semester.  He took two in his junior year and aced both AP final exams which has given him several credits toward college already.


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## Cecilie1200 (Sep 9, 2010)

Middleman said:


> Cecilie1200 said:
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Geometry -  a branch of *mathematics *that deals with the measurement, properties, and relationships of points, lines, angles, surfaces, and solids; broadly : the study of properties of given elements that remain invariant under specified transformations 

Hint:  They have these books, called "dictionaries", that tell you the definitions of words.  Your daughter's school probably uses them.  Try not to have a conniption over it.


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## Samson (Sep 9, 2010)

Middleman said:


> They use public funds to teach them how to put on a condom, after all...
> 
> You should see some of the fluff classes they have these days. A bunch of touchy feely female nonsense.



You think they should teach them to put on a condom using a pair of pliers?


Ouch.


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## Middleman (Sep 9, 2010)

Cecilie1200 said:


> Middleman said:
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OK, here's another test. Compare and contrast *geometry* and *geography*...  You get extra credit if you can do so without using the word 'moron' or 'idiot'.


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## Care4all (Sep 9, 2010)

algebra and geometry was required to graduate high school, when I went to school as well.


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## Samson (Sep 9, 2010)

Care4all said:


> algebra and geometry was required to graduate high school, when I went to school as well.



Its important to be able to calculate correct shoe size.


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## Samson (Sep 9, 2010)

Middleman said:


> Cecilie1200 said:
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And the poo slinging begins.............................

_<<<<<sigh>>>>>_


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## Middleman (Sep 9, 2010)

Samson said:


> Middleman said:
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> > They use public funds to teach them how to put on a condom, after all...
> ...


  good one!


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## Foxfyre (Sep 9, 2010)

Middleman said:


> I'm wonder why Algebra and Geometry are considered 'core' courses, but culinary arts, child development, basic carpentry, are not. I believe the latter are really more applicable to daily living.
> 
> Also, I'm continually amazed that my teenagers lack certain basic knowledge in Math, Geography, etc, yet all this emphasis on algebra? I got an A in algebra and geometry, but frankly, don't see much use for it for most professions. Yes, it gives one a better understanding of the universe, but in daily living basic Math really does suffice. And, as Foxfyre point out, our young people are often lacking in those basic skills.



I use algebra a lot sometimes just to buy groceries.  Is the large economy size a better deal that the small size that is marked 15% off?  If I want to scale down a recipe intended to produce 20 servings to a recipe that will serve 7 people, how much do I proportionately reduce the amount of each ingredient?    And geometry?   As an insurance adjuster in my not so distant past, I can't tell you all the ways I found to use geometry as well as in calculating how much paint or varnish or floor covering or something else to buy as Cecile pointed out.   I didn't know that I would be an insurance adjuster sometime in my life.  I wasn't thinking about buying groceries when I was taking 9th grade algebra.

Basic skills to me, however, involved balancing a checkbook, figuring out a household or personal budget and knowing whether you're staying within it, knowing whether you got the right change back from a $5 bill, understanding how much money is being deducted from your paycheck each week, taking notes at a trainng session, knowing where to look to get instructions for something and understanding the instructions when you read them, some basic chemistry skills--no, you don't mix Clorox with the Lime Away--yes you can substtitue baking soda for baking powder but you need to calculate a different quantity--okay I have X number of square feet of wall space to cover so I need X gallons of paint, etc. etc. etc.

And yes, algebra, geometry, and what I think should be other core curriculum all contribute to general education providing the basics that allow us to do ordinary daily tasks expediently and efficiently.   And as for learning some basic history, social studies/government, basic reading comprehension and basic English skills, having to do at least some memory work, master some composition skills, etc. all so contribute to the person's quality of life and ability to be an informed and productive citizen, it simply goes without saying.

I always thought the rule in my husband's school that girls couldn't take shop and guys couldn't take Home-ec was stupid.   On the other hand, the college bound kid might need advanced math and science courses more than s/he needs those more practical courses.  I think a good school is flexible that way.


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## Cecilie1200 (Sep 9, 2010)

Samson said:


> Middleman said:
> 
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> > They use public funds to teach them how to put on a condom, after all...
> ...



I think if you're too dumb to figure out how to use a condom, you should have a chastity device surgically applied to your privates to protect the gene pool.


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## Cecilie1200 (Sep 9, 2010)

Middleman said:


> Cecilie1200 said:
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Excuse me?  You misidentify geometry as having "nothing to do with mathematics", refuse to acknowledge it when you're proven to be wrong AND full of shit, and you think YOU are giving ME tests?  Buy a clue . . . assuming you can figure out how much it costs, given your shoddy mathematics education.

By the way, I haven't called you an idiot yet that I can recall, but if you want to cop to it, far be it from me to stop you.


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## Middleman (Sep 9, 2010)

Cecilie1200 said:


> Samson said:
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You're going to have to stay after class, my dear, and finish your geometry/geography comparison and contrast assignment.


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## AllieBaba (Sep 9, 2010)

I think Middleman has had geometry and algebra, but has blacked it out.

I have taken geometry, which I loved...and lots and lots of algebra. I took lots and lots because I kept flunking it. It's way more work than I'm accustomed to having to put out to get an A, and homework is something you can't fudge on in higher math. So naturally I didn't do well.

But I got the basics, and I'm glad I did. 

Genetics are also all about high math and algebra. It's fascinating.


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## Middleman (Sep 9, 2010)

Cecilie1200 said:


> Middleman said:
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Excuse me, my dear, but you are the one who told everyone here how important geography is to mathematics. Also, your deportment on this thread is less than exemplary. I think you need to see the counselor regarding your inability to discuss things in class without resorting to insults.


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## Samson (Sep 9, 2010)

Cecilie1200 said:


> Samson said:
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I'd be interested in hearing how you knew how to put on a condom the first time you used one.

I'm listening.


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## Cecilie1200 (Sep 9, 2010)

Foxfyre said:


> Middleman said:
> 
> 
> > I'm wonder why Algebra and Geometry are considered 'core' courses, but culinary arts, child development, basic carpentry, are not. I believe the latter are really more applicable to daily living.
> ...



Never crossed my mind to have any of my kids take Home Economics.  By the time they reach high school - my middle one is a freshman now - they know how to cook several basic meals, how to clean a house effectively, how to do laundry, and the basics of money management.  Be damned if I'm going to do all that shit for them all by myself!

My son has elected to take wood shop and auto shop in school this year, and plans to take welding next year.  If he hadn't, he would still have learned the basics of auto maintenance and home repair at home, because I have no intention of sending my kids out into the world to be ripped off.  He'll be fifteen this fall, and his father and I plan to give him an older-model car, basically sound but needing repairs, as a 16th-birthday present, and my friend, Sean, and my husband will be helping him to fix it up.


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## uscitizen (Sep 9, 2010)

Middleman said:


> I went to my daughter's orientation for incoming Freshmen at her high school. They mentioned that new standards required the completion of Algebra and Geometry for High School graduation.
> 
> I was surprised. When I went to school we took those courses as prereqs for college. Now, my kids are all pretty good to excellent at math. One of my sons won 12th place in the State Math bowl, and is basically a math genius.
> 
> ...



Algebra and geometry are essiental root skills for many career paths in life now.  Technologies that we did not have when I went to school.
Such as computers and their software.  Both the manufacture of and programming of requires these basic skills.


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## Middleman (Sep 9, 2010)

Shall I quote you again, sweetheart? Note the bolded statements by you. 



Cecilie1200 said:


> Middleman said:
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So, what did you mean, geography or geometry? Do you know the difference between these two disciples? How about geology, do you know what that is?


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## uscitizen (Sep 9, 2010)

I do not think Palintology should be taught in our schools.


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## Cecilie1200 (Sep 9, 2010)

Middleman said:


> Cecilie1200 said:
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Ooh, you latch onto a typo and think that blots out the fact that you're in here griping and whining about your daughter's school actually teaching academics, instead of operating like a vocational education center for the mentally-challenged?  I think not.

Tell me, do you also throw hissy fits at the English Department for teaching her Shakespeare, since "there's no real life application for it"?  Hey, how about a tantrum because they have Government classes, since most people don't vote anyway?  Or Earth Science, because who the hell needs to know the difference between cirrus and cumulo-nimbus clouds, anyway?


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## Cecilie1200 (Sep 9, 2010)

Samson said:


> Cecilie1200 said:
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I looked at it.  Speaking of things that aren't rocket science . . .


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## Middleman (Sep 9, 2010)

uscitizen said:


> I do not think Palintology should be taught in our schools.



cute. 

One thing I'd like the schools to emphasize more is etiquette and manners. The students should be taught the basics of mature discussion skills, something I see that our friend Cecilie1200 utterly lacks. 

One ought to be able to converse without resorting to insults and derogatory comments. Just state your case, and accept that others may differ.


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## Samson (Sep 9, 2010)

Cecilie1200 said:


> Samson said:
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You "looked at it?" The condom? The penis? The vagina?

You must have looked at more than "it."

That seems less than instructive.


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## uscitizen (Sep 9, 2010)

Middleman said:


> uscitizen said:
> 
> 
> > I do not think Palintology should be taught in our schools.
> ...



I in contrast think that the children should get the basics of etiquette and manners at home where the personal responsibilities of the parents lie.


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## Samson (Sep 9, 2010)

Middleman said:


> uscitizen said:
> 
> 
> > I do not think Palintology should be taught in our schools.
> ...



Another thread.


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## Middleman (Sep 9, 2010)

Samson said:


> Middleman said:
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Well, I've had my fun here, it's been instructive and interesting, as always.


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## Cecilie1200 (Sep 9, 2010)

Middleman said:


> Shall I quote you again, sweetheart? Note the bolded statements by you.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Spare me, "sweetheart".  If you can't read past a typo, then I reiterate that you should have spent more time in English working on reading comprehension.  And if you really think harping on a typo is going to deflect attention from the fact that you're griping and sniveling because high schools teach academics instead of "Advanced McDonald's Drive-through", you needed that logical thinking covered in algebra more than you thought.


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## Cecilie1200 (Sep 9, 2010)

Middleman said:


> uscitizen said:
> 
> 
> > I do not think Palintology should be taught in our schools.
> ...



Yeah, schools should definitely teach "How to Suffer Fools Gladly", just so kids don't slap dumbasses like you cockeyed when they suggest that high schools expect too much in the way of academics.    It's definitely important to learn to tolerate stupidity rather than . . . oh, I don't know, teach people not to be stupid?

One ought to be able to converse without making others sorry that he ever reproduced at all.


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## Cecilie1200 (Sep 9, 2010)

Samson said:


> Cecilie1200 said:
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What, no one taught you about pronouns?

"I'd be interested in hearing how you knew how to put on a condom the first time you used one."

"I looked at it."

You asked a question, I answered the question, obviously the pronoun refers to the noun you asked about:  the condom.  Don't work so hard to overcomplicate in an attempt to sound clever, Samson.

Does it really require instruction for you to figure out how to roll a latex sock onto a simple column?


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## xotoxi (Sep 9, 2010)

The more math that is required in high school, the less the conservatives can complain about "indoctrination".


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## Samson (Sep 9, 2010)

Cecilie1200 said:


> Samson said:
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Um, there's more to it than that:

http://www.usmessageboard.com/education-and-history/132316-how-to-put-on-a-condom.html


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## Cecilie1200 (Sep 9, 2010)

Samson said:


> Cecilie1200 said:
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Feel free to visit your thread for my response.  Sorry you find this so difficult that you think it requires an entire thread to discuss it.


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## Care4all (Sep 9, 2010)

Samson said:


> Care4all said:
> 
> 
> > algebra and geometry was required to graduate high school, when I went to school as well.
> ...


not really, but we did have to hire Engineers to proportionately execute the Product Developer's or Designer's creations....Nike, Reebok, New Balance and all technical shoe companies have a slew of engineers, on staff....  

who would have thunk it, huh?


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## Samson (Sep 9, 2010)

Care4all said:


> Samson said:
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Nothing gets manufactured in China until a Chinese-American designs it.


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## L.K.Eder (Sep 9, 2010)

xotoxi said:


> The more math that is required in high school, the less the conservatives can complain about "indoctrination".



bullshit.


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## Care4all (Sep 9, 2010)

Samson said:


> Care4all said:
> 
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none of our designers or product developers or engineers were chinese....they were all American or British....those that manufactured our product, were mostly Chinese....


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## Samson (Sep 9, 2010)

Care4all said:


> Samson said:
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Ah, wait a few years.

Actually, I hope I'm wrong, but there seem to be many more Indian and Chinese R&D guys.....maybe shoes are just to far below their standards?   They're probably all designing Mag-Lift footwear that we'll be wearing to glide over the sidewalk whilst cheap American designs have us plodding along, smacking the leather between our feet and the ground.


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## Care4all (Sep 9, 2010)

Chinese can not be trusted, that's why we had American Engineers living there, overseeing it all.

Chinese manufacturers are very ''polite'' people....they say ''yes'' to everything, even if it can't be accomplished...they never said ''no'', it can't be done.


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## Samson (Sep 9, 2010)

Care4all said:


> Chinese can not be trusted, that's why we had American Engineers living there, overseeing it all.
> 
> Chinese manufacturers are very ''polite'' people....they say ''yes'' to everything, even if it can't be accomplished...they never said ''no'', it can't be done.



Thus the popularity of Chinese Mail Order Brides.

I still like my Mag-lift shoe idea: Perhaps your engineers can start working on it?

Lemme know what they say.


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## Foxfyre (Sep 9, 2010)

Samson said:


> Care4all said:
> 
> 
> > Chinese can not be trusted, that's why we had American Engineers living there, overseeing it all.
> ...



I can't believe I'm posting this, but you'll notice that the first name on the development team is Chinese:

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KKUaVzf3Oqw]YouTube - Sockification[/ame]


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