# Gun control works in Britain?  Gun Crime up....



## 2aguy (Dec 14, 2021)

How do gun crime stats go up....when they have gun control?​​​*Statistics*​Gun crime has increased by 4% in one year with more than 9,700 crimes involving firearms taking place in the UK. In the year ending March 2019 a total of 9,787 crimes involving guns took place. [Source – Office of National Statistics]
In the 5 years to March 2019, offences involving a firearm have also increased by 27%. [Source – Office of National Statistics]









						Gun Control - How Strict Are UK Gun Crime Laws?
					

An overview of the levels of gun crime in the UK, and how the country has some of the toughest gun laws in the world.




					www.politics.co.uk


----------



## Polishprince (Dec 14, 2021)

The purpose of gun control is to emasculate Law Abiders and prevent from exercising their right to self defense.

The British crown is satisfied that the crime rate among law abiders has gone down.


----------



## Otis Mayfield (Dec 14, 2021)

Would Britain finally beat out Portugal?


----------



## JackOfNoTrades (Dec 14, 2021)

2aguy said:


> How do gun crime stats go up....when they have gun control?​​​*Statistics*​Gun crime has increased by 4% in one year with more than 9,700 crimes involving firearms taking place in the UK. In the year ending March 2019 a total of 9,787 crimes involving guns took place. [Source – Office of National Statistics]
> In the 5 years to March 2019, offences involving a firearm have also increased by 27%. [Source – Office of National Statistics]
> 
> 
> ...


Again, when they get to our % of gun crime...wake me up.


----------



## Tommy Tainant (Dec 14, 2021)

Otis Mayfield said:


> Would Britain finally beat out Portugal?


What do you guys do to become world leaders in this field ?


----------



## 2aguy (Dec 14, 2021)

Tommy Tainant said:


> What do you guys do to become world leaders in this field ?




We allowed left wingers to take control of our cities.....


----------



## 2aguy (Dec 14, 2021)

Otis Mayfield said:


> Would Britain finally beat out Portugal?




What makes us so different?   We have the democrat party attacking and handicapping our police, then they make policies that release violent, repeat gun offenders over and over again....or, they don't charge actual gun criminals captured on video shooting at each other on a public street...

That causes our gun crime rates...

Normal Americans use their legal guns 1.2 million times a year to stop crime......according to the CDC.....far more lives saved with guns then taken by criminals using guns to commit murder....

At the same time....look at most of those countries, the ones in Europe....in 1939, they began to hand over their citizens to the German socialists for murder....

the countries of Europe, much like you guys today, promised their people safety from crime if they just handed in their guns....they did......and then their countries handed them over for mass murder by the German socialists...

What was that death toll?

German socialists

*By genocide, the murder of hostages, reprisal raids, forced labor, "euthanasia," starvation, exposure, medical experiments, and terror bombing, and in the concentration and death camps, the Nazis murdered from 15,003,000 to 31,595,000 people, most likely 20,946,000 men, women, handicapped, aged, sick, prisoners of war, forced laborers, camp inmates, critics, homosexuals, Jews, Slavs, Serbs, Germans, Czechs, Italians, Poles, French, Ukrainians, and many others. Among them 1,000,000 were children under eighteen years of age.1 *

And none of these monstrous figures even include civilian and military combat or war-deaths

http://[URL='http://hawaii.edu/powe...]http://hawaii.edu/powerkills/NAZIS.CHAP1.HTM[/URL]


If you take 10,000 gun murders as the average in the U.S. each year, that makes for 870,000 gun murders in the 87 years since 1939........meanwhile, divide the lowest number given above....15 million by 87 , and you get 172,000 murders a year......but remember, those 15 million murders happened over only 6 years..until Americans...with guns, stopped the German socialists.....

So...you guys always want to leave out the murders committed by the governments of Europe........after they did what you want to do.....they took guns away from their peoples...then murdered them....in the millions.....


----------



## Otis Mayfield (Dec 14, 2021)

Tommy Tainant said:


> What do you guys do to become world leaders in this field ?



During the migration to America, all the calm people remained in Europe.


----------



## Batcat (Dec 14, 2021)

JackOfNoTrades said:


> Again, when they get to our % of gun crime...wake me up.


We have a lot less knife crime in our nation simply because most people don’t bring knives to gun fights. 

They do have knife control in the UK but it obviously doesn’t work all that well. 









						Knife crime in Britain hits record high as offence reported every 11 MINUTES
					

KNIFE crimes in England and Wales has soared to a record high, shocking new figures show today. Offences involving blades rose six per cent, with a crime reported every 11 minutes. Crimes involving…




					www.thesun.co.uk
				




_KNIFE crimes in England and Wales has soared to a record high, shocking new figures show today.

Offences involving blades rose six per cent, with a crime reported every 11 minutes.

Crimes involving a knife or sharp instrument rose to 46,265 for the year to March, according to figures released by the Office for National Statistics (ONS).

The number is 51 per cent higher than when data of this kind was first collected in 2011 and is the highest on record._





__





						Selling, buying and carrying knives and weapons
					

The laws on selling, buying and carrying a knife or weapon depend on the type of knife or weapon, your age and your circumstances.




					www.gov.uk
				




_
The maximum penalty for an adult carrying a knife is 4 years in prison and an unlimited fine. You’ll get a prison sentence if you’re convicted of carrying a knife more than once.
*Basic laws on knives*​It’s illegal to possess a banned knife or weapon. It’s also illegal to:


bring into the UK, sell, hire, lend or give someone a banned knife or weapon
carry any knife in public without good reason, unless it has a manual folding blade less than 3 inches long
sell a knife to anyone under the age of 18, unless it has a manual folding blade less than 3 inches long
use any knife in a threatening way
In Scotland, 16 to 18 year olds are allowed to buy cutlery and kitchen knives.
*Lock knives*​Lock knives are not classed as folding knives and are illegal to carry in public without good reason.

Lock knives:


have blades that can be locked and refolded only by pressing a button
can include multi-tool knives - tools that also contain other devices such as a screwdriver or can opener
Banned knives and weapons​It’s illegal to bring into the UK, possess, sell, hire, lend or give someone a banned knife, unless a legal exemption applies._


----------



## Tommy Tainant (Dec 14, 2021)

Otis Mayfield said:


> During the migration to America, all the calm people remained in Europe.


You mean "slaves" ?
To be fair we did transport a load of thieves and whores. maybe its in the genes ?


----------



## Otis Mayfield (Dec 14, 2021)

Tommy Tainant said:


> You mean "slaves" ?
> To be fair we did transport a load of thieves and whores. maybe its in the genes ?



Don't be racist, Tommy.


----------



## Vagabond63 (Dec 26, 2021)

Oh good grief, another 2aguy BS thread. If you read the article, it basically destroys his argument, again. Next?


----------



## Dagosa (Dec 26, 2021)

2aguy said:


> We allowed left wingers to take control of our cities.....


What a silly argument you make……you try to frame it as if all cities are controlled by liberals. They aren’t. Even cities controlled by repos the crime rate went up. It’s hilarious how ignorant the right is. Or is it more funny how you guys fall for Fix and  Friends and their white trash ideology . 









						The murder rate rose in Republican cities, too
					

Fort Worth Police at the scene of a violent crime. If you're worried by the rise in violent crime — a real and troubling phenomenon — don't ask Republicans for solutions. All they can offer is a blame game that relies on dubious cherry-picked data. To get their message, just glance at...




					www.alternet.org


----------



## 2aguy (Dec 26, 2021)

Dagosa said:


> What a silly argument you make……you try to frame it as if all cities are controlled by liberals. They aren’t. Even cities controlled by repos the crime rate went up. It’s hilarious how ignorant the right is. Or is it more funny how you guys fall for Fix and  Friends and their white trash ideology .
> 
> 
> 
> ...




The democrat party war on police has affected police forces around the country.....their reach is long......besides that, in many cities, the judges, prosecutors are democrats, who refuse at times to even charge criminals they actually catch on video...


----------



## Dagosa (Dec 26, 2021)

2aguy said:


> The democrat party war on police has affected police forces around the country.....their reach is long......besides that, in many cities, the judges, prosecutors are democrats, who refuse at times to even charge criminals they actually catch on video...


Changing the story line ? Funny, the crime rate went up even in cities controlled by repos…dah. Your hypothesis sks. Oh.  Oh, it’s “ many cities”. Really, Fix News doesn’t know wtf they are talking about.


----------



## 2aguy (Dec 26, 2021)

Dagosa said:


> Changing the story line ? Funny, the crime rate went up even in cities controlled by repos…dah. Your hypothesis sks. Oh.  Oh, it’s “ many cities”. Really, Fix News doesn’t know wtf they are talking about.




Again....a cop in a republican city can still be destroyed by the democrats.....that is why cops around the country have stopped pro-actively policing their cities...why risk you job, pension and freedom when you can simply respond to 911 calls....slowly....


----------



## Dagosa (Dec 27, 2021)

2aguy said:


> Again....a cop in a republican city can still be destroyed by the democrats.....that is why cops around the country have stopped pro-actively policing their cities...why risk you job, pension and freedom when you can simply respond to 911 calls....slowly....


Off topic and made up shit. We’re talking about gop controlled cities who have seen crime go up....you lost, move on. Lying and ineptitude in not doing the research doesn’t work and  it never did.


----------



## 2aguy (Dec 27, 2021)

Dagosa said:


> Off topic and made up shit. We’re talking about gop controlled cities who have seen crime go up....you lost, move on. Lying and ineptitude in not doing the research doesn’t work and  it never did.




Nope....the democrat party war on police is a national problem......and democrat judges and prosecutors are in Red cities too...releasing violent criminals over and over again.


----------



## Man of Ethics (Dec 28, 2021)

Firearm death rate in USA is 12.2 per million people per year.
Firearm death rate in UK is 0.23 per million people per year. 
Here.


----------



## Man of Ethics (Dec 28, 2021)

Here.



> The U.S. has the 32nd-highest rate of deaths from gun violence in the world: 3.96 deaths per 100,000 people in 2019. That was more than eight times as high as the rate in Canada, which had 0.47 deaths per 100,000 people — and nearly 100 times higher than in the United Kingdom, which had 0.04 deaths per 100,000.


----------



## 2aguy (Dec 28, 2021)

Relative Ethics said:


> Firearm death rate in USA is 12.2 per million people per year.
> Firearm death rate in UK is 0.23 per million people per year.
> Here.




And that has what to do with guns?

The criminal makes the decision to commit murder or to leave the victim alone....British criminals have guns, they don't use them to commit murder as often or as easily as criminals in our democrat party controlled cities....where out of wedlock birthrates for black children is over 75%....while in Britain it is 45%.....fatherless homes, not guns, create violent criiminals...


----------



## Man of Ethics (Dec 28, 2021)

Gun crime has nothing to do with Race -- it has a lot to do with Poverty and access to guns.


----------



## 2aguy (Dec 28, 2021)

Relative Ethics said:


> Gun crime has nothing to do with Race -- it has a lot to do with Poverty and access to guns.




Yep....but crime and poverty impact fatherless children more than anyone else....and they turn to crime and violence...that is why an over 75% out of wedlock birthrate in the black community drives the over 50% murder rate.....and the victims are also primarily young black males...


----------



## Toro (Dec 28, 2021)

2aguy said:


> How do gun crime stats go up....when they have gun control?​​​*Statistics*​Gun crime has increased by 4% in one year with more than 9,700 crimes involving firearms taking place in the UK. In the year ending March 2019 a total of 9,787 crimes involving guns took place. [Source – Office of National Statistics]
> In the 5 years to March 2019, offences involving a firearm have also increased by 27%. [Source – Office of National Statistics]
> 
> 
> ...



Gun crime is lower in the UK than it is in the US, rube.






But keep clinging!


----------



## 2aguy (Dec 28, 2021)

Toro said:


> Gun crime is lower in the UK than it is in the US, rube.
> 
> View attachment 580870
> 
> But keep clinging!




It was also lower than the U.S. before they banned guns.....and now criminals in the U.K. are getting more and more guns....you doofus.


----------



## Toro (Dec 28, 2021)

2aguy said:


> It was also lower than the U.S. before they banned guns.....and now criminals in the U.K. are getting more and more guns....you doofus.



Yet every single time there is a gun crime in the UK, you are posting it here to support your gun fetish, you intellectually dishonest hack.


----------



## 2aguy (Dec 28, 2021)

Toro said:


> Yet every single time there is a gun crime in the UK, you are posting it here to support your gun fetish, you intellectually dishonest hack.




How do you get there?

I point out, for the sake of morons like you.....that criminals get guns because they need them for work.........even on a tiny island like England.........


----------



## Wild Bill Kelsoe (Dec 28, 2021)

Otis Mayfield said:


> Would Britain finally beat out Portugal?


That's just more evidence to support the argument to carry a gun for self defense.


----------



## bodecea (Dec 28, 2021)

2aguy said:


> How do gun crime stats go up....when they have gun control?​​​*Statistics*​Gun crime has increased by 4% in one year with more than 9,700 crimes involving firearms taking place in the UK. In the year ending March 2019 a total of 9,787 crimes involving guns took place. [Source – Office of National Statistics]
> In the 5 years to March 2019, offences involving a firearm have also increased by 27%. [Source – Office of National Statistics]
> 
> 
> ...


Happy dancing?


----------



## Captain Caveman (Dec 28, 2021)

Anyone wanting to know the correct data of firearm offences in the UK, here's the official link.









						Firearm Crime Statistics: England & Wales - House of Commons Library
					

This briefing looks at statistics on gun crime in England and Wales. It uses police recorded crime data to evaluate trends over time and to compare crime between police force areas, with a section focussing specifically on gun crime in London. Type of offence and type of weapon used are also...




					commonslibrary.parliament.uk
				




Otherwise you'll end believing the verbal shite from 2aguy 

Also note, when you look at the number per type of crime and how many were homicides etc.. you will probably think it's a Saturday night stats report in Chicago.


----------



## 2aguy (Dec 28, 2021)

Captain Caveman said:


> Anyone wanting to know the correct data of firearm offences in the UK, here's the official link.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




And you think that changes the fact that criminals in Britain are getting more and more guns...

What you guys don't want to understand is that they have guns, they, at this point, do not use them to commit murder as easily or often as American criminals......what you don't want to acknowledge is that they are changing because foreign immigrants who don't care about British law and culture are becoming more and more prone to use guns to enforce their drug turf.......

We had low levels of gun crime in the 1950s....then, in the 1960s, criiminals began to use guns....and they increased gun use for crimes up to the 1990s when we became serious about locking them up......\

Britain is at that point.....their 1950s going into the 1960s.......the British police can't stop the increasing flow of illegal guns into their country.....their welfare state has destroyed British families to the point their children are being raised without fathers....that causes violent crime.......


----------



## 2aguy (Dec 28, 2021)

Toro said:


> Gun crime is lower in the UK than it is in the US, rube.
> 
> View attachment 580870
> 
> But keep clinging!




I guess these shooters in England didn't get the news....machine guns?  In England?

*A gang of five men and one woman hit two innocent bystanders in a machine gun battle outside a party with hundreds of guests over a petty feud.*
*
Some 34 bullets were blasted when two rival groups of heavily armed gunmen opened fire at each other outside a private function in east London.
*
*At least eight rounds were unloaded from an Uzi submachine gun inside the rented hall in Leyton, forcing terrified partygoers out into the street.


Two innocent revellers suffered gunshot wounds after getting caught in the crossfire inside the building.
-----------*
The shootout was sparked by an ongoing feud between Maitland and Parrish, police later discovered.

Footage of the rolling gun battle showed Lawrence blasted 10 bullets from an Uzi submachine pistol after leaving the party venue.

Parrish was also spotted firing two rounds from a Sig Sauer handgun while Maitland discharged three shots from a Makarov self-loading pistol.

Ozger was also seen offloading five rounds from a Tokarev self-loading pistol as guests fled the carnage.











						Two injured after gang-related machine gun battle outside party
					

The incident took place in Leyton in East London




					www.independent.co.uk
				





Hmmmmm.....those aren't fowling pieces..........


----------



## Vagabond63 (Dec 30, 2021)

2aguy said:


> And that has what to do with guns?
> 
> The criminal makes the decision to commit murder or to leave the victim alone....British criminals have guns, they don't use them to commit murder as often or as easily as criminals in our democrat party controlled cities....where out of wedlock birthrates for black children is over 75%....while in Britain it is 45%.....fatherless homes, not guns, create violent criiminals...


----------



## Vagabond63 (Dec 30, 2021)

2aguy said:


> We had low levels of gun crime in the 1950s....then, in the 1960s, criiminals began to use guns....and they increased gun use for crimes up to the 1990s when we became serious about locking them up......\


*cough* Prohibition (1920s-30s)*cough*


----------



## Vagabond63 (Dec 30, 2021)

2aguy said:


> that criminals get guns because they need them for work...


Almost all gun crime in the UK relates to conflicts between drug gangs. Normal law abiding people have no use whatsoever for handguns and or automatic rifles for "self defence". We have units of highly trained police officers who deal with any incidents involving firearms, thank you.


----------



## 2aguy (Dec 30, 2021)

Vagabond63 said:


> Almost all gun crime in the UK relates to conflicts between drug gangs. Normal law abiding people have no use whatsoever for handguns and or automatic rifles for "self defence". We have units of highly trained police officers who deal with any incidents involving firearms, thank you.




Almost all gun crime in the U.S. is conducted between criminals....70-80% of the gun murder victims in this country are criminals...with the majority of the remaining victims the friends and family of the criminals caught in the crossfire.....

Law abiding victims of crime would disagree with you...

Florida....
Investigators said an 80-year-old Pensacola, Florida, man walked outside to lock his cars just after 11 p.m. Tuesday when two males approached him and demanded his car, WEAR-TV reported.
One of the suspects pulled a gun on the elderly victim, WKRG-TV reported.
But it turns out their target came prepared. Police said the homeowner grabbed his concealed weapon — for which he has a permit — and opened fire, WEAR reported.
Both suspects ran off, WKRG said, adding that one of the victims turned up at a house with a gunshot wound. The second suspect got away, WEAR reported.
--------
Well, it looks like both suspects have an opportunity to step back and evaluate their life choices, now doesn’t it?
------
After all, bad guys are predators. They like to look for easy prey, people like 80-year-old guys in Florida.

And that’s why owning and carrying a gun is so important.

Even an armed criminal is likely to run from an armed citizen defending themselves. While I often point out that bad guys set the terms of engagement, the truth is that the armed citizen is likely the more tenacious side. After all, escape is usually not really an option for the armed citizen. They have their lives to defend.

Putting up a fight really does seem to be the best option when faced with an armed criminal, and this gentleman did fight. As a result, he went home that night and at least one of the thugs went to the hospital. Sure, another got away, but he’s going to have that memory of damn near being lit up by some old guy who didn’t want to give up his cars or his life.
Guns don’t make men evil. They don’t create criminals where none existed previously. They do, however, give people who may not be physically able to meet physical threats an edge that allows them to protect themselves.
80-Year-Old Armed Citizen Teaches Carjackers Valuable Life Lesson


12/24/17
'I had to take care of things': Gun-wielding Texas mother scares off intruder
The family does not want to be identified, but wanted to share the story in hope that awareness can help in similar situations.

The mother was at home with the family's 3-month-old daughter Thursday night. Her husband was out of town working, but was coming home Friday to celebrate the first Christmas with their daughter.

After tossing and turning in bed for a while, the mother was not able to fall asleep and went to the living room around 11:30 p.m.

About an hour later, she heard the home alarm beep and her back door open.

Her instinct kicked in.

"I froze for a second and then I realized I needed to spring into action, I mean, I had my baby in the house. I was alone. My husband was away on business, so I had to take care of things," she said.

She grabbed a gun and went towards the back door, where she found a man standing in her kitchen.

She yelled at the man while pointing the gun at him, and her dog ran towards him, scaring him out of the back door.

She locked the door and called 911.
================

http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2017/12/22/suspect-puts-gun-mans-head-gets-shot/

A suspect put a gun to a man’s head on Thursday only to flee under a barrage of bullets after the would-be victim pulled his own gun and opened fire.​
The incident occurred in Philadelphia’s West Oak Lane.

According to 6 ABC, Rahkeim Kelly was “headed home from buying a soda” when the suspect in a hoodie approached and put a gun to his head. Kelly managed to move away quickly, take cover behind a car, draw his own gun, and open fire.

The suspect, 22-year-old Osirus Lester, fled the scene.

Kelly said, “I fired two shots first, then he tried to take off running. I fired one more, then he ended up dropping the gun. He ran off and I just went and secured the weapon.”
Lester was arrested within minutes with a gunshot wound to his wrist.

Philadelphia Police Capt. Sekou Kinnebrew said, “[Kelly] does have a valid permit to carry. We checked that out. He’s the victim of a robbery. He did attempt to retreat, taking cover behind a car. But the offender continued to aggress, and (the victim) had to defend himself.”
=====================

11/25/17
Auto shop employees credited with taking down accused Rockledge gunman

ROCKLEDGE — A man armed with a .45-caliber handgun and a lot of ammunition wandered onto an auto repair shop property and began firing in the parking lot Friday afternoon, police said.

The gunman killed one employee and paralyzed a second. That's when the employees at Schlenker Automotive fought back with equal force, Rockledge police chief Joseph La Sata said.

"The manager, who was a concealed weapons permit holder, came out and engaged in gunfire in the parking lot," La Sata said. "The manager fled back inside the building, being chased by the gunman. Another Schlenker employee, who also had concealed weapons permit, engaged in gunfire with the suspect."

Police said the suspect in the homicide is Robert Lorenzo Bailey Jr., 28, of Cocoa. He was shot twice and was in critical condition at Health First's Holmes Regional Medical Center in Melbourne. Officers are keeping him under watch.
===================
11/15/17

http://www.truthrevolt.org/news/good-guy-gun-stops-sex-assault-hiking-trail

According to The Blaze, Josh Williams, 39, nearly left his handgun at home when heading out to the hiking trail on a dark morning back in September, but he felt the nagging sensation that he should take it anyway. That turned out to be the right call because while on the trail at 5:30 a.m., Williams heard a woman scream loud enough to get past his music-blaring earbuds. 

In the darkness, Williams shined his flashlight and discovered a woman being sexually assaulted and approached the perpetrator.

“I came up, pulled my gun and told him to get off of her,” Williams recalled. He then asked the man to get on his knees and asked to see his hands: “That way I knew he didn’t have a weapon. And at that point he was no threat, so I didn’t feel the need to shoot him.”

The perp ran away but thanks to a good description from both the victim and Williams, police were able to later apprehend 22-year-old Richard McEachern and charge him with sexual assault.

The victim was very glad Williams decided to carry that day and used a gun to save her from a dangerous situation. That was the first time Williams ever pointed his weapon at another person, but it confirmed for him the importance of the Second Amendment:



> “It’s dark, and I don’t know what’s out there, so I have it to protect myself and other people. That’s what it’s all about anyway — to help other people with it, not just myself.
> “I didn’t think I’d ever have to pull it. Did I want to? No, not at all. But just … right place, right time.”





> ====================


11/11/17

81-year-old homeowner fatally shoots armed robber

A suspect was shot and killed when he tried to rob an 81-year-old man at gunpoint outside of the man’s home in Genoa, Arkansas, on Thursday afternoon.

Buddy Cates told KSLA that he walked outside of his home around 1:30 p.m. and came face to face with the suspect, who authorities are still working to identify.

Cates said the suspect was holding a “big pistol,” but Cates also had his hand in his pocket, gripping his own gun.

“The battle was one,” Cates recalled, noting that, between the two, at least a dozen shots were fired.

“Whoever got the biggest gun and fastest will be boss when it is all said and done,” Cates said. “In this case, it was me.”

Cates was uninjured, but the suspect died after he was taken to a hospital in Texarkana, not far from Cates’ home.

After the attempted robbery and subsequent shooting, three women were arrested in connection to the crime, according to reports from the Texarkana Gazette. Kiana Keshaun Montgomery, 21; Shaynesha Martin, 19; and Ke’Erica Turner, 20, are all facing charges for aggravated robbery and are being held at the Miller County Detention Center. Authorities did not say what part the women played in the robbery or whether they are believed to be responsible for other crimes.


11/4/17

Walmart shooting, where good guys didn't shoot

Colorado Walmart's Armed Innocents Hampered Police. Or Not. - The Truth About Guns

First, the police weren’t on scene when the killer fired his gun; they arrived _after_ the perp had escaped. Second, the armed good guys didn’t shoot other armed good guys (no shots were fired by anyone other than the bad guy). And third, other reports indicate that the killer scarpered _after_ he caught sight of armed opposition.

Given these facts one could easily argue that armed defenders prevented greater loss of life. And that all the anti-gun rights hysteria about the presence of armed innocents making\ cops’ jobs harder is a bunch of horsesh*t. I mean, how exactly did these armed Americans _threaten_ public safety?

------

Nine-point-nine times out of ten, the police are _not_ the first responders to an act of violence. The innocent people being attacked are the first responders. The idea that they should be disarmed to make it easier for armed police to respond — most often after the fact — is to say that it’s OK to sacrifice innocent life on the altar of imagined efficiency. It isn’t.

Besides, as National Association for Gun Rights Prez Dudley Brown told the _Times,_ “In that situation, what are people supposed to do? Lay down on the floor and draw chalk marks around themselves?”
11/1/17


Dallas Homeowner's Story Proves Why Private Citizens Need Guns

For one Dallas homeowner, however, the nightmare became reality.

A man that police believe intended to rob a Lake Highlands home was shot early Monday morning.

It happened in the 9500 block of Moss Farm Lane near Abrams Road and Royal Lane.

_The homeowner said the man first rang his doorbell around 5 a.m. He apologized for being at the wrong home and left.

A few minutes later the man came back, kicked in the door and forced his way inside. But the homeowner had a gun and opened fire, police said.

Neighbors said they heard about a half a dozen shots. When responding officers arrived they found the wounded suspect in the street. The suspect was taken to the hospital in critical condition. He is expected to survive, police said._

The homeowner and his wife were reportedly unhurt and are cooperating with investigators, which is to be expected. After all, it rarely gets to be a more clear case of self-defense than that. I mean, the suspect reportedly knew the house was occupied, yet busted the door in just the same. It’s not an unreasonable assumption to believe that he allegedly entered that home with harmful intent.

And he was shot for his troubles.

Now, he gets to recover from his wounds and contemplate his life choices that led him to get shot in some stranger’s house simply because he apparently thought he had the right to bust into someone else’s home. If he’s smart, he’ll realize he’s fortunate to be alive and seek the path of redemption.

10/20/17

Good guy with a gun stops kidnapping

It was habit, not heroism, that caused Justin Pearson to grab his gun.

But seconds later, that weapon enabled Pearson to stop a kidnapping taking place just outside his Las Vegas home on Oct. 5.

“We heard this real loud noise outside,” said Pearson, 36. “I opened up the door, and this big BMW goes flying by — 60 mph in a 25 mph zone. I dialed 911 immediately.”

As he always does before leaving his house, Pearson, a concealed-carry weapon permit holder, put his pistol on his hip. The 911 operator asked for a license plate number, so Pearson moved down the street to get it.

“He had lost control of the car and almost went into a house at the end of the street,” Pearson said. The BMW then turned around and stopped in front of a neighbor’s yard, where a 6-year-old boy was standing.

“About 50 yards in front of me, the driver grabs this young child and starts stuffing him in the car,” Pearson said.

“‘Holy crap, he just took a child, and he’s trying to stuff him into the car!’” Pearson remembers telling the operator.

Pearson is 6-foot-4 but makes a beanpole look stocky. The kidnapper, Pearson recalls, was a similar height, but was a “solid” 250 pounds.

“He was a very big dude, and I’m not a menacing person by any means,” Pearson said. “I don’t think I could have physically stopped the guy. It would have been super ugly if it was just me versus him.”

Fortunately, Pearson had a trump card — a Heckler & Koch VP9 pistol legally resting on his right hip.


“I carry a concealed firearm everywhere I go,” Pearson said. “I lifted up my shirt and put my hand on my gun.”

“‘Hey, stop!’ I said, real loud. He turned and looked at me. There was just enough of a delay for the kid to get out of the car. I know he saw the firearm.”

With the boy out of the car and an armed citizen staring him down, the man decided to drive away. Pearson and his still-holstered pistol stopped a kidnapping. Police wouldn’t arrive for 17 minutes.

“If I didn’t have a firearm, I don’t think there’s much I could have done,” Pearson said.

A Metropolitan Police Department spokeswoman confirmed many of the details in Pearson’s story, including the date, time and location. Pearson said — and Metro confirmed — that the would-be kidnapper was the boy’s biological father, who didn’t have parental rights or permission to take the child.

This isn’t the first time Pearson has used a firearm to stop a crime.

“Many years ago, I was carrying and a guy pulled a knife on a friend of mine,” Pearson said. “I quickly drew my firearm, and the kid ran away.”


These kinds of stories rarely make the news. But they happen more often than we realize and underscore an important point. Concealed-carry weapon permit holders prevent crimes.

============

10/16/17

Attacker with knife flees after woman reveals her concealed carry gun, police say

A woman in Illinois was reportedly able to protect herself with her concealed carry firearm after a stranger with a knife jumped into her car.

Police said a woman who was parked near a shopping mall in Moline on Sunday was attacked by a man who fought his way into her car, according to WQAD 8.

During the fight, the man reportedly slashed the woman’s arm with a knife. He then ordered the woman to drive to Rock Island County, a rural area, according to police.

Once the woman stopped the car, she was able to reach her gun, which she had a concealed carry firearm permit for, WQAD 8 reported.

After the attacker saw the weapon, he reportedly ran off and she was able to drive herself to the hospital.

Police subsequently opened an investigation and arrested Floyd R. May, 61.

May was charged with aggravated kidnapping, aggravated battery with a weapon, unlawful use of a weapon by a felon and aggravated assault.

===========

10/11/17

Woman stabbed shoots and kills attacker...

About 4:05 p.m. Oct. 5, the 25-year-old man was shot in the chest when he stabbed the 25-year-old woman multiple times in the 4000 block of West 21st Street, Chicago Police said.

The woman was taken in serious condition to Mount Sinai Hospital, and the man was pronounced dead at the scene at 4:48 p.m., authorities said.

The Cook County medical examiner’s office identified him as Pleasure Cardell Singleton Jr.

The stabbing was believed to be a domestic incident, police said, but the nature of the relationship between the two wasn’t released.
======

9/25/17



> Would-be robber fatally shot by resident after forcing family into basement
> 
> A man was shot and killed inside a home in Hammond, Indiana, Friday morning while attempting to rob the residents.
> 
> ...



9/8/17

Taco Bell employees shoot, kill armed robbery suspect

CLEVELAND – Three employees at a Cleveland Taco Bell shot and killed a suspect during an attempted robbery, according to police.

Officers responded to the restaurant on W. 117th street at 2:45 a.m. Wednesday morning for a report of a robbery with shots fired.

When police arrived, they found a suspect with multiple gunshot wounds. Officers administered first aid until EMS arrived. The suspect later died at MetroHealth Medical Center. The medical examiner later identified the suspect as 24-year-old Cleveland resident De'Carlo Jackson.

Another man, believed to be Jackson's accomplice, had already taken off by the time officers arrived.

Police say a preliminary investigation indicates that three Taco Bell employees, all armed, shot at the two suspects after they came into the restaurant wearing masks and ordered the employees to the ground at gunpoint.
==============

8/23/17

Police: Robber tries to take woman's purse, flees when 57-year-old shows gun at west Little Rock shopping center

The would-be robber reportedly grabbed the woman’s purse while it rested on her shoulder, at which point, the victim brandished a weapon she had stored inside.

According to the report, the assailant then fled west through the parking lot of the grocery store and behind Belk.

No items were listed as stolen from the woman.
===================
8/9/17

Deputies: Mass Stabbing Suspect Stopped When Fourth Target Pulled a Gun - Breitbart

*Deputies say a suspect who allegedly stabbed three people in Seminole, Florida, stopped when a fourth individual pulled a gun on him.*
The incident occurred Sunday afternoon in broad daylight.

According to The Patch, the incident began when witnesses alleged they saw 49-year-old Bobby Martin Watson trying to rob a woman in a Publix parking lot. Pinellas County Sheriff’s Office deputies indicate that the woman–44-year-old Rosanna Lynn–struggled with Watson and he stabbed her.

Watson then ran and a witness–44-year-old Christopher McMann–approached, only to get stabbed as well.


Deputies said a second good Samaritan–31-year-old Travis Jones–then chased and tackled Watson, only to be “stabbed in the abdomen during the struggle that ensued.” Forty-year-old Donald Rush saw what was happening, grabbed his gun from his vehicle and ran at Watson. He was able to take away the knife “and held [Watson] at gunpoint until deputies arrived.”

Rush did not have to fire his gun. The sight of the brandished firearm was enough to stop the attack.

Watson was booked into the Pinellas County jail. He faces charges of “armed robbery and three counts of aggravated battery with a deadly weapon.”


----------



## 2aguy (Dec 30, 2021)

Vagabond63 said:


> *cough* Prohibition (1920s-30s)*cough*




Crime in the U.S. began to increase in the 1960s.....the crime you point out was concentrated in major cities....while the rest of the country, because of intact families, experienced lower crime rates...

Crime during the depression went down, not up........

​*Violent crime rates may have risen at first during the Depression (in 1933, nationwide homicide mortality rate hit a high for the century until that point, at 9.7 per 100,000 people) but the trend did not continue throughout the decade. As the economy showed signs of recovery in 1934-37, the homicide rate went down by 20 percent.*









						Crime in the Great Depression
					

During the Great Depression, with much of the United States mired in grinding poverty and unemployment, some Americans found increased opportunities in




					www.history.com
				




Decivilization in the 1960s

*And figure two, Homicide rates in US and England 1900-2000, shows that in the 1960s the homicide rate in America went through the roof.*
*------

After a three-decade free fall that spanned the Great Depression, World War II, and the Cold War, Americans multiplied their homicide rate by more than two and a half, from a low of 4.0 in 1957 to a high of 10.2 in 1980 (U.S. Bureau of Statistics; Fox and Zawitz: 2007). The upsurge included every other category of major crime as well, including rape, assault, robbery, and theft, and lasted (with ups and downs) for three decades. The cities got particularly dangerous, especially New York, which became a symbol of the new criminality. Though the surge in violence affected all the races and both genders, it was most dramatic among black men, whose annual homicide rate had shot up by the mid-1980s to 72 per 100,000.
----

The rebounding of violence in the 1960s defied every expectation. The decade was a time of unprecedented economic growth, nearly full employment, levels of economic equality for which people today are nostalgic, historic racial progress, and the blossoming of government social programs, not to mention medical advances that made victims more likely to survive being shot or knifed. Social theorists in 1962 would have happily bet that these fortunate conditions would lead to a continuing era of low crime. And they would have lost their shirts.
----
Together with self-control and societal connectedness, a third ideal came under attack: marriage and family life, which had done so much to domesticate male violence in the preceding decades. 

The idea that a man and a woman should devote their energies to a monogamous relationship in which they raise their children in a safe environment became a target of howling ridicule. That life was now the soulless, conformist, consumerist, materialist, ticky-tacky, plastic, white-bread, Ozzie and Harriet suburban wasteland.
-------*
*
As the rationalizations for criminality caught the attention of judges and legislators, they became increasingly reluctant to put miscreants behind bars. Though the civil liberties reform of the era did not lead to nearly as many vicious criminals ‘going free on a technicality’ as the Dirty Harry movies would suggest, law enforcement was indeed retreating as the crime rate was advancing. In the United States from 1962 to 1979, the likelihood that a crime would lead to an arrest dropped from 0.32 to 0.18, the likelihood that an arrest would lead to imprisonment dropped from 0.32 to 0.14, and the likelihood that a crime would lead to imprisonment fell from 0.10 to 0.02, a factor of five.[10]*


----------



## Blues Man (Dec 30, 2021)

Otis Mayfield said:


> Would Britain finally beat out Portugal?


Once again 

Most murders in this country take place is very small very well defined urban areas.  Murders are so concentrated that this small number of cities actually skews the murder rate for the entire country.

The powers that be know where these places are and choose to do nothing about it because for the most part these murders are young minority males killing other young minority males.

In fact it has been estimated that these areas of ultra high murder rates actually account for 70% of all murders in this country.


----------



## 2aguy (Dec 30, 2021)

Vagabond63 said:


> *cough* Prohibition (1920s-30s)*cough*




Please...take your time......use your fingers.....ask a friend....

Explain this...according to your theory of crime and guns........

Over the last 27 years,  up to the year 2015, we went from 200 million guns in private hands in the 1990s and 4.7 million people carrying guns for self defense in 1997...to close to 400-600 million guns in private hands and over 19.4 million people carrying guns for self defense in 2019...guess what happened...

New Concealed Carry Report For 2020: 19.48 Million Permit Holders, 820,000 More Than Last Year despite many states shutting down issuing permits because of the Coronavirus - Crime Prevention Research Center


-- gun murder down 49%

--gun crime down 75%

--violent crime down 72%

Gun Homicide Rate Down 49% Since 1993 Peak; Public Unaware

*Compared with 1993, the peak of U.S. gun homicides, the firearm homicide rate was 49% lower in 2010, and there were fewer deaths, even though the nation’s population grew. The victimization rate for other violent crimes with a firearm—assaults, robberies and sex crimes—was 75% lower in 2011 than in 1993. Violent non-fatal crime victimization overall (with or without a firearm) also is down markedly (72%) over two decades.*

*What changed in 2015?


Our democrat party, the party of our left wing....

1) Began a war against our police forces....handicapping their efforts across the country....

2) The democrat party ramped up the release of violent, known, gun offenders, the very criminals doing almost all of our gun murder......

kim foxx, of chicago....left wing, democrat party, Cook County  State's Attorney......refused to press charges against 5 gang members who engaged in a shootout on a public street....all 5 were on video, two of them were on the ground with bullets in them...she refused to prosecute them*

*Illinois prosecutors rejected charging five suspects in a deadly gang-related shootout that unfolded in Chicago, despite police reportedly seeking to charge all five suspects with murder and aggravated battery. *
*
The shootout took place in the Austin community of Chicago Friday morning, and was reportedly sparked by an internal dispute between two factions of the Four Corner Hustlers gang, the Chicago Sun Times reported, citing an internal police report and a law enforcement source familiar with the investigation. 
*
*Five men were taken into custody over the shootout, which required a SWAT team response and led to police finding more than 70 shell casings. One shooter was left dead and two of the suspects wounded. *

*








						Prosecutors reject charges for 5 suspects involved in deadly Chicago shootout, cite mutual combat: Report
					

Illinois prosecutors rejected charging five suspects in a deadly gang-related shootout that unfolded in Chicago, despite police reportedly seeking to charge all five suspects with murder and aggravated battery.




					www.foxnews.com
				




Then you have their over all policies.........reducing penalties....for drive by shootings.......*

*Seattle, Washington’s most populous city, had a record number of drive-by shootings in 2021. By July, the city’s drive-by shootings had doubled over the year before.*
*
It’s a problem.

So why are Washington Democrats offering up a bill in the state legislature to lower the penalties for drive-by shootings? Well, there’s woke and then there’s just plain stupid. Washington state Democrats are vying to become the best stupid they can be, bless ’em.

Currently, Washington law holds that a drive-by shooter should get an aggravated enhancement if he is arrested and prosecuted—and that’s a big if. Such an enhancement could land a drive-by murderer a life prison sentence.
*
*But under a bill proposed for the upcoming Washington state legislature by white, woke ex-con state Rep. Tarra Simmons and her co-sponsor David Hackney, the reduction in penalties is a move toward “racial equity.” That’s right, drive-by shooting prosecutorial outcomes are racist. Never mind all the black and brown people who are the disproportionate victims of drive-by shootings.*

*








						Washington State Democrats Want Decreased Penalties for Drive-By Shooters Because... Aw, You Guessed
					

In July, 17-year-old Tay’Zauhn Burns-Miller’s life was snuffed out by a drive-by murderer.  Just days before, Seattle was riven by a swarm of shootings in which six people were mowed down...




					pjmedia.com
				





We don't have a gun problem in the U.S.....we have a left wing, democrat party problem...

Don't worry Vagabond.....Britain is going down the same path....your lefties are attacking the police and demanding reduced sentences for your violent criminals......

Now....again...please answer the following questions....*

*A woman is grabbed by a violent serial rapist at a bus stop, a train platform or in her apartment...he plans on beating, raping and murdering her. She has a gun, and can stop the rape with the gun......

Do you want her to use that gun to stop the rape?

A woman stops an attack with a gun, a brutal rape, torture and murder...in a public space....if you had the ability to go back in time, and prevent her from having that gun...would you?
=======

The British government will not allow a woman to own and carry a gun to prevent being gang raped in a London park.....saying she does not have "good reason," to own the gun.

A member of the House of Lords wants to quail hunt with his rich friends on his private country estate, and the British government gives him the gun....because he has "good reason."

Does this make sense to you?*


----------



## 2aguy (Dec 30, 2021)

Blues Man said:


> Once again
> 
> Most murders in this country take place is very small very well defined urban areas.  Murders are so concentrated that this small number of cities actually skews the murder rate for the entire country.
> 
> ...




Vagabond and tommy are going to get a lesson in this.......their left wingers are going down the same path as our left wingers...attacking the police, releasing the most violent offenders over and over again......and they will get the same result......their drug gangs are now run by foreign immigrants who do not care about British traditions, culture or law....and who definitely do not fear British police......


----------



## Blues Man (Dec 30, 2021)

Tommy Tainant said:


> You mean "slaves" ?
> To be fair we did transport a load of thieves and whores. maybe its in the genes ?


Sure just ignore serfdom and the crimes committed against entire populations under the guise of British imperialism.

You people don;t have any moral high ground to claim here









						Britain’s ‘Dark Past’: the atrocities of the British Empire and its legacy today - History Indoors
					

When you cast your mind back to your school days, your memories of British history will likely be dominated by topics such as the World Wars and the Battle of Hastings, but there has been little offered in the way of British colonial history to schoolchildren. Recently, the British public has...




					historyindoors.co.uk


----------



## Blues Man (Dec 30, 2021)

Relative Ethics said:


> Firearm death rate in USA is 12.2 per million people per year.
> Firearm death rate in UK is 0.23 per million people per year.
> Here.


Suicides don;t count.

Suicide is a choice and any free person has the absolute right to decide to end his own life

0ver 2/3 of firearm related deaths in the US are suicides or IOW a person's choice


----------



## Blues Man (Dec 30, 2021)

Vagabond63 said:


> Almost all gun crime in the UK relates to conflicts between drug gangs. Normal law abiding people have no use whatsoever for handguns and or automatic rifles for "self defence". We have units of highly trained police officers who deal with any incidents involving firearms, thank you.


Just like in this country.

Except we have more cities where this occurs and we have local governments and law enforcement agencies that just do not give a shit if young male minorities kill each other.


----------



## Dagosa (Dec 30, 2021)

2aguy said:


> The democrat party war on police has affected police forces around the country.....their reach is long......besides that, in many cities, the judges, prosecutors are democrats, who refuse at times to even charge criminals they actually catch on video...


Another ignorant generalization. Show one instance where the party leaders of democrats including Biden all got together as a national policy and want to defund the police. The GOP can’t even hold their own members accountable for their illegal and disgraceful actions. The GOP as a policy refuses to even hold  corporations responsible for hiring illegals which is the biggest driving force for illegal immigration. Geesus, your own fking President was an admitted fraud and  hire of illegals. Don’t talk about liberals and criminality. Your party is awash with it.


----------



## Dagosa (Dec 30, 2021)

Blues Man said:


> Suicides don;t count.
> 
> Suicide is a choice and any free person has the absolute right to decide to end his own life
> 
> 0ver 2/3 of firearm related deaths in the US are suicides or IOW a person's choice


That’s a stupid remark. Why not go all the way and make it easier for teens
, one  of the biggest group that do this, easier by selling guns to any 13 year old who was fat shamed.
Let’s just hand guns around to all potential suicide victims to make it easier. That’s what your saying.


----------



## Blues Man (Dec 30, 2021)

Dagosa said:


> That’s a stupid remark. Why not go all the way and make it easier for teens
> , one  of the biggest group that do this, easier by selling guns to any 13 year old who was fat shamed.
> Let’s just hand guns around to all potential suicide victims to make it easier. That’s what your saying.


Guns are for adult use. 

if a parent gives a minor unfettered access to a gun it's the parent's fault not the gun's.

Why is it you people insist that children are somehow allowed legal access to guns?


----------



## Dagosa (Dec 30, 2021)

Blues Man said:


> Guns are for adult use.
> 
> if a parent gives a minor unfettered access to a gun it's the parent's fault not the gun's.
> 
> Why is it you people insist that children are somehow allowed legal access to guns?


That’s why the gop is in favor of selling guns  to anyone on the open market.

Get real. If someone isn’t getting shot, it’s a bad day for gun a holic conservatives.

ANY minor  has legal access to BUYING a firearm from any legal buyer. Our gop legislative laws are a joke. Even the idiot 17 year old we just acquitted was too young to buy a gun but was legal to intimidate and  shoot people.

Are you saying Suicide is a right for teens ? That’s your story ?


----------



## Blues Man (Dec 30, 2021)

Dagosa said:


> That’s why the gop is in favor of selling guns  to anyone on the open market.
> 
> Get real. If someone isn’t getting shot, it’s a bad day for gun a holic conservatives.


OK so tell me where anyone wants to sell guns to 13 year old children.


----------



## Captain Caveman (Dec 30, 2021)

Gun crime in the UK is horrendous, our yearly figures are nearly up to a Saturday night figures in Chicago.


----------



## Blues Man (Dec 30, 2021)

Captain Caveman said:


> Gun crime in the UK is horrendous, our yearly figures are nearly up to a Saturday night figures in Chicago.


Americans don;t really care what you Brits do.  The question is why do you all seem to care so much about what we do?


----------



## Dagosa (Dec 30, 2021)

Blues Man said:


> OK so tell me where anyone wants to sell guns to 13 year old children.


In any state or municipality that doesn’t require universal background checks. It’s all legal to NOT ask anyone their age or even require an ID in private sales. YOU can sell a gun to a felon or teen  simply by not asking for an ID and claiming you were stupid. Leave it to republicans to reward stupidity and gifting to get away with aiding murder and suicides with teens and felons.


----------



## Dagosa (Dec 30, 2021)

Captain Caveman said:


> Gun crime in the UK is horrendous, our yearly figures are nearly up to a Saturday night figures in Chicago.


Chicago is a city and UK is a country. Conservatives  are really not that smart in geography  are they ?


----------



## Captain Caveman (Dec 30, 2021)

Blues Man said:


> Americans don;t really care what you Brits do.  The question is why do you all seem to care so much about what we do?


Oh yes they fucking do, hence this thread, for example.


----------



## Blues Man (Dec 30, 2021)

Dagosa said:


> In any state or municipality that doesn’t require universal background checks. It’s all legal to NOT ask anyone their age or even require an ID. YOU can sell a gun to a felon simply by not asking for an ID and claiming you were stupid. Leave it to republicans to reward stupidity and gifting to get away with murder and suicides with teens and felons.











						Private Gun Sale Laws by State - FindLaw
					

While the Second Amendment to the U.S. Constitution guarantees the right of private citizens to keep and bear arms, there are some limits and regulations on how they are sold and who may possess them. Federally licensed firearms dealers are required by federal law to conduct background checks on...




					www.findlaw.com
				




Almost all states specifically prohibit sales to minors


----------



## Captain Caveman (Dec 30, 2021)

Dagosa said:


> Chicago is a city and UK is a country. Conservatives  are really not that smart in geography  are they ?


One city in the USA on one day beats the whole of the UK in one year. Did you not get that? You thick retard. You are so slow, stationary objects are flying past you.


----------



## Blues Man (Dec 30, 2021)

Captain Caveman said:


> Oh yes they fucking do, hence this thread, for example.


So that one person represents all of the US?

So I guess i can assume you represent all Brits right?


----------



## Captain Caveman (Dec 30, 2021)

Blues Man said:


> So that one person represents all of the US?
> 
> So I guess i can assume you represent all Brits right?


Look at the threads and content in general. Come on, speed your brain up, you guys mouth froth over the UK.


----------



## Blues Man (Dec 30, 2021)

Captain Caveman said:


> Look at the threads and content in general. Come on, speed your brain up, you guys mouth froth over the UK.


I don't.

I just have to correct you people when you post stupid shit because you7 don;t know anything about this country


----------



## Captain Caveman (Dec 30, 2021)

Blues Man said:


> I don't.
> 
> I just have to correct you people when you post stupid shit because you7 don;t know anything about this country


You're only correcting the voices in your head. You didn't even know your National Anthem is based on a British song, did you!!


----------



## Blues Man (Dec 30, 2021)

Captain Caveman said:


> You're only correcting the voices in your head. You didn't even know your National Anthem is based on a British song, did you!!


A British drinking song to be more accurate.


----------



## Blues Man (Dec 30, 2021)

Captain Caveman said:


> You're only correcting the voices in your head. You didn't even know your National Anthem is based on a British song, did you!!


And I never really thought our national anthem was much of a song.  Personally I think it should be America the Beautiful.


----------



## 2aguy (Dec 30, 2021)

Dagosa said:


> Another ignorant generalization. Show one instance where the party leaders of democrats including Biden all got together as a national policy and want to defund the police. The GOP can’t even hold their own members accountable for their illegal and disgraceful actions. The GOP as a policy refuses to even hold  corporations responsible for hiring illegals which is the biggest driving force for illegal immigration. Geesus, your own fking President was an admitted fraud and  hire of illegals. Don’t talk about liberals and criminality. Your party is awash with it.




Wow.....you are stupid.......the states and local dems supported that movement....some even donating to the groups pushing it, you doofus.

The left is attacking the police...not the GOP.....the left is releasing violent repeat gun offenders over and over again, not the GOP...you dumb ass...

This is the democrat party....not the GOP...and that list is just scratching the surface...

Related 2021 stories​
#1: 16-year-old charged with shooting man during robbery while awaiting trial for felony (January 12, 2021)
#2: Man fatally shot girlfriend while on electronic monitoring for November gun case, prosecutors say (January 20, 2021)
#3: On bail for 3 separate felony cases, “fanged” man now charged with killing 12-year-old in DUI crash (January 23, 2021)
#4: Man on affordable bail for his 3rd felony gun case is charged with weekend murder (January 28, 2021)
#5: Man charged with murder while on bail for 3rd gun case and escape (February 5, 2021)
#6: Man, on bail for attempted murder and robbery, charged with killing woman while speeding away from police traffic stop (February 25, 2021)
#7: Teen accused of shooting driver during Wednesday carjacking is awaiting trial for 3 felonies, prosecutors say (February 25, 2021)
#8: “Highly active” gang member charged with killing rival over haircut — while on affordable bail (March 4, 2021)
#9: On bail for five burglaries, man set fire to home, killing girlfriend and 10-year-old girl, prosecutors say (March 12, 2021)
#10: Man, on bail for gun case, is charged with attempted murder for shooting at carjacking victims (March 17, 2021)
#11: Man who shot cop and passerby hoped to be killed by CPD, prosecutors say (March 20, 2021)
#12: Man charged with shooting co-worker while on affordable bail for Lincoln Park carjacking (April 2, 2021)
#13 and #14: Two more men charged with shooting people in Chicago while on bail for felony cases (April 4, 2021)
#15: Man murdered childhood friend while awaiting trial on federal gun charges, prosecutors say (April 13, 2021)
#16: Man chased down and killed victim while on electronic monitoring for gun case, prosecutors say (April 18, 2021)
#17: 16-year-old charged with murder, robbery in alleged pot dealer rip-off (April 19, 2021)
#18: Man charged murder of 7-year-old at McDonald’s drive-thru has 2 pending felony cases, prosecutors say (April 25, 2021)
#19: Second man charged with killing 7-year-old at McDonald’s was on 4 felony bonds, including robbery and gun cases (May 1, 2021)
#20: Gunman in Diversey River Bowl shoot-out was on bail for another gun case, prosecutors say (June 2, 2021)
#21: Man’s accused of shooting up another car in traffic — while on bond for gun case (June 10, 2021)
#22: Man charged with attempted murder of CTA bus driver was AWOL in felony DUI case, prosecutors say (June 10, 2021)
#23 and #24: Two more men accused of shooting people while on bail for felonies (June 13, 2021)
#25: Man on bail for 2 felonies had pistol at hospital where his girlfriend was being treated for gunshot wound, prosecutors say (June 25, 2021)
Man charged with shooting tourist, killing passerby while AWOL on gun case, prosecutors say (June 26, 2021)
#26: Shooter in murder-suicide was on bail for two pending gun felonies, police say (July 6, 2021)
#27: Teen charged with killing 73-year-old carjacking victim was AWOL in felony stolen car case, prosecutors say (July 17, 2021)
#28: Man on felony bail killed another driver during highway robbery attempt, prosecutors say (July 17, 2021)
#29: On electronic monitoring for gun case, man escapes and shoots victim in the face, prosecutors say (July 23, 2021)
#30: Man, on bond for gun case, shot woman 10 times in her back, prosecutors say (July 23, 2021)
#31: Man shot 2 victims in separate robberies while on bail for felony gun case, prosecutors say (July 25, 2021)
#32: Teen with pending felony gun case shot man dead over shoulder bump, prosecutors say (July 28, 2021)
#33: Gunman in mass shooting was on $200 bond for pending firearms case, prosecutors say (August 12, 2021)
#34: Man tried to kill stranger during 8-minute random attack inside Lincoln Park store, prosecutors say (August 12, 2021)
#35: Man murdered another in cold blood while on bond for gun case, prosecutors say (August 12, 2021)
#36: Uber Eats driver was gunned down in random attack by man who’s on bond for gun case, prosecutors say (August 14, 2021)
#37: Man’s charged with trying to kill 2 cops while on a recognizance bond for injuring 2 cops who tried to arrest him in March (August 19, 2021)
#38: Man killed one, shot another while on bond for being a felon in possession of a firearm, prosecutors say (August 25, 2021)
#39 – Man’s charged with two separate shootings while AWOL on burglary charge (September 8, 2021)
#40: Chef is accused of slashing friend’s throat while on bond for allegedly stabbing his own brother to death (September 9, 2021)
#41: Man charged with firing 14 shots during carjacking — while on recognizance bond for stolen car case (February 10, 2021)
#42: Man killed 1, injured 3 in expressway shooting while on bond for attempted murder, prosecutor say (September 11, 2021)
#43: Man shot victim 11 times while awaiting new trial in gun case, prosecutors say (September 22, 2021)
#44: Man charged with trying to kill his girlfriend while on felony bond (September 22, 2021)
#45: Man beat, shot at his pregnant girlfriend while free on felony case, prosecutors say (September 26, 2021)
#46: Man shot woman during argument over phone messages while on bail for felony gun case, prosecutors say (October 10, 2021)
#47: Twice-convicted gun offender shot man while on bail for another gun case and escape, prosecutors say (October 12, 2021)
#48: Five-time felon killed his own cousin while on electronic monitoring for pending narcotics case, prosecutors say (November 3, 2021)
#49: Gunman shot a passing car while firing across Chicago Avenue — and while on felony bond (November 6, 2021)
#50: Uber driver was murdered by a man who was on felony bail, federal prosecutors say. But that’s only part of the story. (November 8, 2021)
#51: Concealed carry holder kills catalytic converter thief who opened fire on him in West Lakeview (November 11, 2021)
#52: Man who shot driver in South Loop on Saturday was AWOL from a pending felony case, prosecutors say (November 23, 2021)
#53: Man charged with shooting 1-year-old while on recognizance bond for felony gun case (November 26, 2021)
#54: Man opened fire on trucker during expressway dispute — while on bond for being a felon in possession of a firearm, prosecutors say (November 27, 2021)
#55: Man killed 2, shot 3 more while awaiting trial for carjacking, prosecutors say (November 28, 2021)
#56: Man tried to kill his wife on the Kennedy Expressway while on bond for domestic battery, on parole for domestic battery, and on conditional discharge for domestic battery, prosecutors say (November 29, 2021)
#57: Man shot store clerk while on bond for felony gun case, prosecutors say (December 10, 2021)
#58: Man opened fire on cops in traffic — while on bond for felony gun case, prosecutors say (December 13, 2021)
#28 (again): Anti-violence worker is charged with murder and attempted murder while on felony bail. It’s the second murder he’s accused of committing while on bond. (December 15, 2021)
#59: Convicted felon shot and killed another man while on bond for being a felon in possession of a firearm, prosecutors say (December 16, 2021)
#60: Man shot a teenager during a drug deal — while on electronic monitoring for gun and drug cases, prosecutors say (December 18, 2021)
#61: Felon shot and killed the mother of his children while he was on bail for possessing a stolen firearm, prosecutors say (December 21, 2021)









						#62: Convicted felon, on bail for gun case, tried to kill 2 Chicago cops on Christmas Eve, prosecutors say
					

Nokomis Jefferson was on bond for being a felon in possession of a firearm when he allegedly shot at and tried to kill two Chicago police officers on Christmas Eve.




					cwbchicago.com


----------



## 2aguy (Dec 30, 2021)

Dagosa said:


> In any state or municipality that doesn’t require universal background checks. It’s all legal to NOT ask anyone their age or even require an ID in private sales. YOU can sell a gun to a felon or teen  simply by not asking for an ID and claiming you were stupid. Leave it to republicans to reward stupidity and gifting to get away with aiding murder and suicides with teens and felons.




And when the police catch the felon with the gun?  They can already be arrested.....don't need to change any law there....

Then, after they are arrested, a democrat prosecutor will drop the gun charge, and a democrat judge will release the felon without bail...

Normal people selling a private gun, likely to clear out their collection or to buy a new gun, are not our problem....

The democrat party constantly releasing the worst violent gun offenders is our problem...

Related 2021 stories​
#1: 16-year-old charged with shooting man during robbery while awaiting trial for felony (January 12, 2021)
#2: Man fatally shot girlfriend while on electronic monitoring for November gun case, prosecutors say (January 20, 2021)
#3: On bail for 3 separate felony cases, “fanged” man now charged with killing 12-year-old in DUI crash (January 23, 2021)
#4: Man on affordable bail for his 3rd felony gun case is charged with weekend murder (January 28, 2021)
#5: Man charged with murder while on bail for 3rd gun case and escape (February 5, 2021)
#6: Man, on bail for attempted murder and robbery, charged with killing woman while speeding away from police traffic stop (February 25, 2021)
#7: Teen accused of shooting driver during Wednesday carjacking is awaiting trial for 3 felonies, prosecutors say (February 25, 2021)
#8: “Highly active” gang member charged with killing rival over haircut — while on affordable bail (March 4, 2021)
#9: On bail for five burglaries, man set fire to home, killing girlfriend and 10-year-old girl, prosecutors say (March 12, 2021)
#10: Man, on bail for gun case, is charged with attempted murder for shooting at carjacking victims (March 17, 2021)
#11: Man who shot cop and passerby hoped to be killed by CPD, prosecutors say (March 20, 2021)
#12: Man charged with shooting co-worker while on affordable bail for Lincoln Park carjacking (April 2, 2021)
#13 and #14: Two more men charged with shooting people in Chicago while on bail for felony cases (April 4, 2021)
#15: Man murdered childhood friend while awaiting trial on federal gun charges, prosecutors say (April 13, 2021)
#16: Man chased down and killed victim while on electronic monitoring for gun case, prosecutors say (April 18, 2021)
#17: 16-year-old charged with murder, robbery in alleged pot dealer rip-off (April 19, 2021)
#18: Man charged murder of 7-year-old at McDonald’s drive-thru has 2 pending felony cases, prosecutors say (April 25, 2021)
#19: Second man charged with killing 7-year-old at McDonald’s was on 4 felony bonds, including robbery and gun cases (May 1, 2021)
#20: Gunman in Diversey River Bowl shoot-out was on bail for another gun case, prosecutors say (June 2, 2021)
#21: Man’s accused of shooting up another car in traffic — while on bond for gun case (June 10, 2021)
#22: Man charged with attempted murder of CTA bus driver was AWOL in felony DUI case, prosecutors say (June 10, 2021)
#23 and #24: Two more men accused of shooting people while on bail for felonies (June 13, 2021)
#25: Man on bail for 2 felonies had pistol at hospital where his girlfriend was being treated for gunshot wound, prosecutors say (June 25, 2021)
Man charged with shooting tourist, killing passerby while AWOL on gun case, prosecutors say (June 26, 2021)
#26: Shooter in murder-suicide was on bail for two pending gun felonies, police say (July 6, 2021)
#27: Teen charged with killing 73-year-old carjacking victim was AWOL in felony stolen car case, prosecutors say (July 17, 2021)
#28: Man on felony bail killed another driver during highway robbery attempt, prosecutors say (July 17, 2021)
#29: On electronic monitoring for gun case, man escapes and shoots victim in the face, prosecutors say (July 23, 2021)
#30: Man, on bond for gun case, shot woman 10 times in her back, prosecutors say (July 23, 2021)
#31: Man shot 2 victims in separate robberies while on bail for felony gun case, prosecutors say (July 25, 2021)
#32: Teen with pending felony gun case shot man dead over shoulder bump, prosecutors say (July 28, 2021)
#33: Gunman in mass shooting was on $200 bond for pending firearms case, prosecutors say (August 12, 2021)
#34: Man tried to kill stranger during 8-minute random attack inside Lincoln Park store, prosecutors say (August 12, 2021)
#35: Man murdered another in cold blood while on bond for gun case, prosecutors say (August 12, 2021)
#36: Uber Eats driver was gunned down in random attack by man who’s on bond for gun case, prosecutors say (August 14, 2021)
#37: Man’s charged with trying to kill 2 cops while on a recognizance bond for injuring 2 cops who tried to arrest him in March (August 19, 2021)
#38: Man killed one, shot another while on bond for being a felon in possession of a firearm, prosecutors say (August 25, 2021)
#39 – Man’s charged with two separate shootings while AWOL on burglary charge (September 8, 2021)
#40: Chef is accused of slashing friend’s throat while on bond for allegedly stabbing his own brother to death (September 9, 2021)
#41: Man charged with firing 14 shots during carjacking — while on recognizance bond for stolen car case (February 10, 2021)
#42: Man killed 1, injured 3 in expressway shooting while on bond for attempted murder, prosecutor say (September 11, 2021)
#43: Man shot victim 11 times while awaiting new trial in gun case, prosecutors say (September 22, 2021)
#44: Man charged with trying to kill his girlfriend while on felony bond (September 22, 2021)
#45: Man beat, shot at his pregnant girlfriend while free on felony case, prosecutors say (September 26, 2021)
#46: Man shot woman during argument over phone messages while on bail for felony gun case, prosecutors say (October 10, 2021)
#47: Twice-convicted gun offender shot man while on bail for another gun case and escape, prosecutors say (October 12, 2021)
#48: Five-time felon killed his own cousin while on electronic monitoring for pending narcotics case, prosecutors say (November 3, 2021)
#49: Gunman shot a passing car while firing across Chicago Avenue — and while on felony bond (November 6, 2021)
#50: Uber driver was murdered by a man who was on felony bail, federal prosecutors say. But that’s only part of the story. (November 8, 2021)
#51: Concealed carry holder kills catalytic converter thief who opened fire on him in West Lakeview (November 11, 2021)
#52: Man who shot driver in South Loop on Saturday was AWOL from a pending felony case, prosecutors say (November 23, 2021)
#53: Man charged with shooting 1-year-old while on recognizance bond for felony gun case (November 26, 2021)
#54: Man opened fire on trucker during expressway dispute — while on bond for being a felon in possession of a firearm, prosecutors say (November 27, 2021)
#55: Man killed 2, shot 3 more while awaiting trial for carjacking, prosecutors say (November 28, 2021)
#56: Man tried to kill his wife on the Kennedy Expressway while on bond for domestic battery, on parole for domestic battery, and on conditional discharge for domestic battery, prosecutors say (November 29, 2021)
#57: Man shot store clerk while on bond for felony gun case, prosecutors say (December 10, 2021)
#58: Man opened fire on cops in traffic — while on bond for felony gun case, prosecutors say (December 13, 2021)
#28 (again): Anti-violence worker is charged with murder and attempted murder while on felony bail. It’s the second murder he’s accused of committing while on bond. (December 15, 2021)
#59: Convicted felon shot and killed another man while on bond for being a felon in possession of a firearm, prosecutors say (December 16, 2021)
#60: Man shot a teenager during a drug deal — while on electronic monitoring for gun and drug cases, prosecutors say (December 18, 2021)
#61: Felon shot and killed the mother of his children while he was on bail for possessing a stolen firearm, prosecutors say (December 21, 2021)









						#62: Convicted felon, on bail for gun case, tried to kill 2 Chicago cops on Christmas Eve, prosecutors say
					

Nokomis Jefferson was on bond for being a felon in possession of a firearm when he allegedly shot at and tried to kill two Chicago police officers on Christmas Eve.




					cwbchicago.com


----------



## Cellblock2429 (Dec 30, 2021)

Tommy Tainant said:


> What do you guys do to become world leaders in this field ?


/---/ We breed criminals in our democRAT controlled inner cities.


----------



## Dagosa (Dec 30, 2021)

2aguy said:


> And when the police catch the felon with the gun?  They can already be arrested.....don't need to change any law there....
> 
> Then, after they are arrested, a democrat prosecutor will drop the gun charge, and a democrat judge will release the felon without bail...
> 
> ...


You aske a question, I answered it and you went off on another tangent. Obviously,you’re at a loss for words. I’m not reading your post. It has noth8ng to do with supplying firearms to teens which you support.


----------



## Dagosa (Dec 30, 2021)

Captain Caveman said:


> One city in the USA on one day beats the whole of the UK in one year. Did you not get that? You thick retard. You are so slow, stationary objects are flying past you.


Another internet tough guy. Go on  a diet.


----------



## Dagosa (Dec 30, 2021)

Blues Man said:


> Private Gun Sale Laws by State - FindLaw
> 
> 
> While the Second Amendment to the U.S. Constitution guarantees the right of private citizens to keep and bear arms, there are some limits and regulations on how they are sold and who may possess them. Federally licensed firearms dealers are required by federal law to conduct background checks on...
> ...


No they don’t. Only in federally licensed gun sales is proof of purchase by age checked and verified and in states that require universal background checks . That’s a stupid remark.


----------



## Dagosa (Dec 30, 2021)

Captain Caveman said:


> One city in the USA on one day beats the whole of the UK in one year. Did you not get that? You thick retard. You are so slow, stationary objects are flying past you.


Another silly statement with no context. Have no idea what your point is. Maybe if you posted without an accent it would help.


----------



## Dagosa (Dec 30, 2021)

2aguy said:


> The democrat party war on police has affected police forces around the country.....their reach is long......besides that, in many cities, the judges, prosecutors are democrats, who refuse at times to even charge criminals they actually catch on video...


No one is against the police more then the gop which promotes arming crimInals. Geesus, you have to be engaged in criminal behavior just to get into a position of power with both the Trump led Gop  and the NRA


----------



## Otis Mayfield (Dec 30, 2021)

2aguy said:


> How do gun crime stats go up....when they have gun control?​​​*Statistics*​Gun crime has increased by 4% in one year with more than 9,700 crimes involving firearms taking place in the UK. In the year ending March 2019 a total of 9,787 crimes involving guns took place. [Source – Office of National Statistics]
> In the 5 years to March 2019, offences involving a firearm have also increased by 27%. [Source – Office of National Statistics]
> 
> 
> ...










Britain has a long way to go until they're up to our standards.


----------



## 2aguy (Dec 30, 2021)

Otis Mayfield said:


> Britain has a long way to go until they're up to our standards.




You forgot to factor in the 15 million murdered by the German socialists between 1939 and 1945. across the entire continent of Europe into Russia...if you do that, you find that they murdered more people in those 6 years, than all gun murders committed by American criminals with guns for the last 87 years.....

At around 10,000 gun murders a year...where 70-80% of the victims are criminals engaged in crime, not innocent men, women and children.......you get 870,000 people over that 87 year period...

Divide 15,000,000 by that 87 years and you get 172,413 people a year.............

172,413 is more than the 10,258 murdered by guns in the U.S. in 2019....and every other year.....


You guys just prefer that innocents are murdered by government, rather than criminals murdering other criminals...that is an odd way to desire these things...but that's on you...

Meanwhile......to point out that guns don't cause gun crime....

Over the last 27 years,  up to the year 2015, we went from 200 million guns in private hands in the 1990s and 4.7 million people carrying guns for self defense in 1997...to close to 400-600 million guns in private hands and over 19.4 million people carrying guns for self defense in 2019...guess what happened...

New Concealed Carry Report For 2020: 19.48 Million Permit Holders, 820,000 More Than Last Year despite many states shutting down issuing permits because of the Coronavirus - Crime Prevention Research Center


-- gun murder down 49%

--gun crime down 75%

--violent crime down 72%

Gun Homicide Rate Down 49% Since 1993 Peak; Public Unaware

*Compared with 1993, the peak of U.S. gun homicides, the firearm homicide rate was 49% lower in 2010, and there were fewer deaths, even though the nation’s population grew. The victimization rate for other violent crimes with a firearm—assaults, robberies and sex crimes—was 75% lower in 2011 than in 1993. Violent non-fatal crime victimization overall (with or without a firearm) also is down markedly (72%) over two decades.*


This means that access to guns does not create gun crime........

Why do our democrat party controlled cities have gun crime problems?

1) the democrat party keeps releasing violent gun offenders...they have created a revolving door for criminals who use guns, and will release even the most serious gun offenders over and over again....why?   Probably because they realise that normal people don't use their guns for crime, so if they want to push gun control, they need criminals to shoot people.....so they keep releasing them....

2)  The democrat party keeps attacking the police.....driving the officers into not doing pro-active policing, cutting detective forces so that murders go unsolved..........

NAZI GENOCIDE AND MASS MURDER



*German socialists*

*By genocide, the murder of hostages, reprisal raids, forced labor, "euthanasia," starvation, exposure, medical experiments, and terror bombing, and in the concentration and death camps, the Nazis murdered from 15,003,000 to 31,595,000 people, most likely 20,946,000 men, women, handicapped, aged, sick, prisoners of war, forced laborers, camp inmates, critics, homosexuals, Jews, Slavs, Serbs, Germans, Czechs, Italians, Poles, French, Ukrainians, and many others. Among them 1,000,000 were children under eighteen years of age.1 *

And none of these monstrous figures even include civilian and military combat or war-deaths

http://[URL='http://hawaii.edu/powe...]http://hawaii.edu/powerkills/NAZIS.CHAP1.HTM[/URL]


----------



## Blues Man (Dec 30, 2021)

Dagosa said:


> No they don’t. Only in federally licensed gun sales is proof of purchase by age checked and verified and in states that require universal background checks . That’s a stupid remark.


Yes they do

From the link which you didn;t bother to read

AK  Concealable firearms may not be tranferred to anyone prohibited under state law;* minors may not purchase firearms (including rifles and other long guns).*
AR  No one may transfer a firearm to a minor without the consent of a parent or legal guardian;
CO  Seller is required to arrange for a licensed gun dealer to obtain a background check on the prospective buyer
CT  May not transfer firearms or ammunition to someone who has been convicted of a serious juvenile offense, is a minor, or is prohibited under state law from owning guns.
DE  Any unlicensed seller of firearms must conduct a background check on the prospective buyer through a licensed firearms dealer.
DC Seller is required to arrange for a licensed gun dealer to obtain a background check on the prospective buyer through the National Instant Criminal Background Check System (NICS).


and that's just a few that either require a BG check or expressly prohibit transfers of any firearm to a minor.


So those are state laws but federal gun laws also prohibit sale of any firearm to a person under the age of 18









						Federal Firearms Laws
					






					www.justice.gov
				




VII. SELL, DELIVER OR TRANSFER FIREARM OR AMMUNITION TO A JUVENILE:​A. *18 USC § 922(x)(1).* Punishable by up to 1 year imprisonment unless transferor had reason to believe juvenile would commit crime of violence with gun or ammunition, then up to 10 years imprisonment. May not sell, deliver or transfer a handgun or handgun-only ammunition to a *person who is under age 18;*

B. *18 USC § 922(x)(2).* A person under age 18 may not possess a handgun or handgun-only ammunition; (NOTE: Certain exceptions apply to A & B, such as where juvenile possesses written permission of a parent.);

C. *18 USC § 922(b).* Punishable by up to 5 years imprisonment. A *firearms licensee* may not sell any gun or ammunition to anyone under the age of 18 and may not sell a handgun or handgun ammunition to a *person under the age of 21.*


----------



## Dagosa (Dec 30, 2021)

Blues Man said:


> that's just a few that either require a BG check or expressly prohibit transfers of any firearm to a minor.


Ha ha
 That  says it all.
The prohibition is ONLY on the buyer, not the seller for unknowingly selling for private sales.  Foolish claim.
States and municipalities either require universal background checks or they don’t For private sales.
THE SELLER IN PRIVATE SALES ONLY HAS TO BE IGNORANT of the buyer to legally make the sale. He’s not prohibited from being stupid.

Private sales without UBCs do nothing to prohibit  gun a holics from selling or even gifting firearms privately to any breathing humanoid. There is no prohibition on ignorance.

You’re  professed ignorance  is amazing.
But gun a holics have been practicing it for years while helping to arm felons with weapons


----------



## Blues Man (Dec 30, 2021)

Dagosa said:


> Ha ha
> That  says it all.
> The prohibition is ONLY on the buyer, not the seller for private sales.  Foolish claim.
> States and municipalities either require universal background checks or they don’t For private sales.
> ...



Wrong.

FEDERAL GUN LAWS PROHIBIT TRANSFERS TO MINORS AND IS PUNISHABLE BY UP TO A YEAR IN JAIL OR 10 YEARS IN JAIL UNDER CERTAIN CIRCUNSTANCES.

AND ALMOST ALL STATES EXPRESSLY PROHIBIT TRANSFERS TO MINORS


----------



## 2aguy (Dec 30, 2021)

Dagosa said:


> Ha ha
> That  says it all.
> The prohibition is ONLY on the buyer, not the seller for unknowingly selling for private sales.  Foolish claim.
> States and municipalities either require universal background checks or they don’t For private sales.
> ...




Moron.....the only reason assholes like you want background checks on private sales is to next demand gun registration.....


We have all the laws we need to arrest felons with guns......that isn't problem.  Our problem is the democrat party and losers like you releasing the felons with guns that we catch...the ones doing almost all of the shooting...

So sell your background checks to biden voters....the only ones too stupid to know what you are really after.


----------



## C_Clayton_Jones (Dec 30, 2021)

2aguy said:


> How do gun crime stats go up....when they have gun control?​​​*Statistics*​Gun crime has increased by 4% in one year with more than 9,700 crimes involving firearms taking place in the UK. In the year ending March 2019 a total of 9,787 crimes involving guns took place. [Source – Office of National Statistics]
> In the 5 years to March 2019, offences involving a firearm have also increased by 27%. [Source – Office of National Statistics]
> 
> 
> ...


The thread premise is a lie and fails as a confirmation bias fallacy.

No one has presented firearm regulatory measures as a ‘panacea’ for all gun crime and violence.


----------



## Dagosa (Dec 30, 2021)

2aguy said:


> Moron.....the only reason assholes like you want background checks on private sales is to next demand gun registration.....
> 
> 
> We have all the laws we need to arrest felons with guns......that isn't problem.  Our problem is the democrat party and losers like you releasing the felons with guns that we catch...the ones doing almost all of the shooting...
> ...


We want to keep assholes like you from arming teenagers with firearms to commit suicides.

This is a quote from the federal provisions On private sales or fiream transfers. 
This  paragraph exempts from being prohibited, anyone who doesn’t know or ask or require proof of eligibility. So anyone is exempt from these provisions if he DOES NOT ask for proof of eligibility. 
That means anyone can easily avoid being a prohibited seller. 

“II. KNOWINGLY SELL, GIVE OR OTHERWISE DISPOSE OF ANY FIREARM OR AMMUNITION TO ANY PERSON WHO FALLS WITHIN ONE OF THE ABOVE CATEGORIES:


----------



## Dagosa (Dec 30, 2021)

2aguy said:


> You forgot to factor in the 15 million murdered by the German socialists between 1939 and 1945. across the entire continent of Europe into Russia...if you do that, you find that they murdered more people in those 6 years, than all gun murders committed by American criminals with guns for the last 87 years.....
> 
> At around 10,000 gun murders a year...where 70-80% of the victims are criminals engaged in crime, not innocent men, women and children.......you get 870,000 people over that 87 year period...
> 
> ...


So you’re looking for an 90  year old reason to supply criminals with guns now. Interesting. Hitler / Trump got you munchkins By the gonads ?


----------



## Dagosa (Dec 30, 2021)

Blues Man said:


> Wrong.
> 
> FEDERAL GUN LAWS PROHIBIT TRANSFERS TO MINORS AND IS PUNISHABLE BY UP TO A YEAR IN JAIL OR 10 YEARS IN JAIL UNDER CERTAIN CIRCUNSTANCES.
> 
> AND ALMOST ALL STATES EXPRESSLY PROHIBIT TRANSFERS TO MINORS


No it doesn’t. You are exempt from the provision by remaining stupid and ignorant of the buy eligibility. That should be easy for gun a. Holics. 
Quote from Fed regs.
“II. KNOWINGLY SELL, GIVE OR OTHERWISE DISPOSE OF ANY FIREARM OR AMMUNITION TO ANY PERSON WHO FALLS WITHIN ONE OF THE ABOVE CATEGORIES:”


----------



## Dagosa (Dec 30, 2021)

2aguy said:


> You forgot to factor in the 15 million murdered by the German socialists between 1939 and 1945. across the entire continent of Europe into Russia...if you do that, you find that they murdered more people in those 6 years, than all gun murders committed by American criminals with guns for the last 87 years.....
> 
> At around 10,000 gun murders a year...where 70-80% of the victims are criminals engaged in crime, not innocent men, women and children.......you get 870,000 people over that 87 year period...
> 
> ...



. What a card. Hitler was a fascist dictator 
…”an authoritarian and nationalistic right-wing system of government”


----------



## Dagosa (Dec 30, 2021)

2aguy said:


> Moron.....the only reason assholes like you want background checks on private sales is to next demand gun registration.....
> 
> 
> We have all the laws we need to arrest felons with guns......that isn't problem.  Our problem is the democrat party and losers like you releasing the felons with guns that we catch...the ones doing almost all of the shooting...
> ...


Trump Humper a little upset ?


----------



## Dagosa (Dec 30, 2021)

Blues Man said:


> FEDERAL GUN LAWS PROHIBIT TRANSFERS TO MINORS AND IS PUNISHABLE BY UP TO A YEAR IN JAIL OR 10 YEARS IN JAIL UNDER CERTAIN CIRCUNSTANCES.


Wrong. It only prohibits  doing it Knowingly. You can hand a loaded weapon over to a 15 year old if you don’t ask for any proof showing it. How stupid do you think the world is to go for  your gun a holic tripe.


----------



## Dagosa (Dec 30, 2021)

Captain Caveman said:


> One city in the USA on one day beats the whole of the UK in one year. Did you not get that? You thick retard. You are so slow, stationary objects are flying past you.


Especially if they’re in gop states which most are
The 10 Most Dangerous Cities In America For 2021​
St. Louis
Springfield
Memphis
Little Rock
Oakland
Wichita
New Orleans
Chattanooga
North Charleston
Cleveland


----------



## Dagosa (Dec 30, 2021)

Blues Man said:


> Wrong.
> 
> FEDERAL GUN LAWS PROHIBIT TRANSFERS TO MINORS AND IS PUNISHABLE BY UP TO A YEAR IN JAIL OR 10 YEARS IN JAIL UNDER CERTAIN CIRCUNSTANCES.
> 
> AND ALMOST ALL STATES EXPRESSLY PROHIBIT TRANSFERS TO MINORS


States with weakest gun laws…more gun violence.








						States With Weak Gun Laws Suffer From More Gun Violence | United States Senate Committee on the Judiciary
					

United States Senate Committee on the Judiciary



					www.judiciary.senate.gov


----------



## 2aguy (Dec 30, 2021)

Dagosa said:


> We want to keep assholes like you from arming teenagers with firearms to commit suicides.
> 
> This is a quote from the federal provisions On private sales or fiream transfers.
> This  paragraph exempts from being prohibited, anyone who doesn’t know or ask or require proof of eligibility. So anyone is exempt from these provisions if he DOES NOT ask for proof of eligibility.
> ...




Yeah....shithead...they aren't a problem....but you need to pretend they are so you can get universal background checks......which you need to demand gun registration.....


----------



## 2aguy (Dec 30, 2021)

Dagosa said:


> Especially if they’re in gop states which most are
> The 10 Most Dangerous Cities In America For 2021​
> St. Louis
> Springfield
> ...




Moron...you didn't look.......those cities are under the control of the democrats....or democrats lying about being independents.........what a doofus you are....


----------



## 2aguy (Dec 30, 2021)

Dagosa said:


> States with weakest gun laws…more gun violence.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Wrong, shithead........notice they say "gun violence," not gun murder?  There is a reason for that, because they use suicide by gun as a factor iin getting their number......do you think this is the first time idiots like you have tried to use that lie in these forums....?


Dagosa said:


> States with weakest gun laws…more gun violence.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Moron...












__





						One moment, please...
					





					crimeresearch.org


----------



## 2aguy (Dec 30, 2021)

Dagosa said:


> States with weakest gun laws…more gun violence.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



You are an idiot.
*As the below charts show, Democratic areas (measured by the party that controls the congressional district) are far more likely to experience almost all forms of malicious gun violence than Republican areas. These charts exclude suicides, for which data are not available on a congressional district basis, so it only breaks down the fraction of gun violence that is accidental or confrontational.*
*--------*
*
A distinct pattern emerged: In Democratic regions of the country, which tend to be cities, people are more likely to be murdered with a gun than they are to shoot themselves to death.

In regions of the country won by Republicans, which tend to be rural areas and small towns, the opposite is true — people are more likely to shoot themselves to death than they are to be murdered with a gun.
----
In the most Democratic regions, gun violence is more often committed against another, crimes that probably generate more news coverage and fear. In the most Republican areas, it is more often committed against oneself, suicides that may not attract as much attention.*

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...prising-way-gun-violence-is-dividing-america/


----------



## 2aguy (Dec 30, 2021)

Dagosa said:


> States with weakest gun laws…more gun violence.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Do you think you are the first anti-gun nut job to try this crap?

New Study Finds Firearms Laws Do Nothing to Prevent Homicides

*But what jumps out at you when you read Fleegler’s article is that the decrease in fatalities that he documents relates almost exclusively to suicides. What his study really shows is that strict gun laws have little or no impact on gun homicides:*
*
Compared with the quartile of states with the fewest laws, the quartile with the most laws had a lower firearm suicide rate (absolute rate difference, 6.25 deaths/100 000/y; IRR, 0.63; 95% CI, 0.48-0.83) and a lower firearm homicide rate (absolute rate difference, 0.40 deaths/100 000/y; IRR, 0.60; 95% CI, 0.38-0.95).


http://reason.com/archives/2016/01/05/you-know-less-than-you-think-a/1

Do Gun Laws Stop Gun Crimes?
The same week Kristof's column came out, National Journal attracted major media attention with a showy piece of research and analysis headlined "The States With The Most Gun Laws See The Fewest Gun-Related Deaths." The subhead lamented: "But there's still little appetite to talk about more restrictions."



Critics quickly noted that the Journal's Libby Isenstein had included suicides among "gun-related deaths" and suicide-irrelevant policies such as stand-your-ground laws among its tally of "gun laws." That meant that high-suicide, low-homicide states such as Wyoming, Alaska, and Idaho were taken to task for their liberal carry-permit policies. Worse, several of the states with what the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence considers terribly lax gun laws were dropped from Isenstein's data set because their murder rates were too low!



Another of National Journal's mistakes is a common one in gun science: The paper didn't look at gun statistics in the context of overall violent crime, a much more relevant measure to the policy debate. After all, if less gun crime doesn't mean less crime overall—if criminals simply substitute other weapons or means when guns are less available—the benefit of the relevant gun laws is thrown into doubt. When Thomas Firey of the Cato Institute ran regressions of Isenstein's study with slightly different specifications and considering all violent crime, each of her effects either disappeared or reversed.
Another recent well-publicized study trying to assert a positive connection between gun laws and public safety was a 2013 JAMA Internal Medicine article by the Harvard pediatrics professor Eric W. Fleegler and his colleagues, called "Firearm Legislation and Firearm-Related Fatalities in the United States." It offered a mostly static comparison of the toughness of state gun laws (as rated by the gun control lobbyists at the Brady Center) with gun deaths from 2007 to 2010.


"States with strictest firearm laws have lowest rates of gun deaths," a Boston Globeheadline then announced. But once again, if you take the simple, obvious step of separating out suicides from murders, the correlations that buttress the supposed causations disappear. As John Hinderaker headlined his reaction at the Power Line blog, "New Study Finds Firearm Laws Do Nothing to Prevent Homicides."



Among other anomalies in Fleegler's research, Hinderaker pointed out that it didn't include Washington, D.C., with its strict gun laws and frequent homicides. If just one weak-gun-law state, Louisiana, were taken out of the equation, "the remaining nine lowest-regulation states have an average gun homicide rate of 2.8 per 100,000, which is 12.5% less than the average of the ten states with the strictest gun control laws," he found.

Public health researcher Garen Wintemute, who advocates stronger gun laws, assessed the spate of gun-law studies during an October interview with Slate and found it wanting: "There have been studies that have essentially toted up the number of laws various states have on the books and examined the association between the number of laws and rates of firearm death," said Wintemute, who is a medical doctor and researcher at the University of California, Davis. "That's really bad science, and it shouldn't inform policymaking."
Wintemute thinks the factor such studies don't adequately consider is the number of people in a state who have guns to begin with, which is generally not known or even well-estimated on levels smaller than national, though researchers have used proxies from subscribers to certain gun-related magazines and percentages of suicides committed with guns to make educated guesses. "Perhaps these laws decrease mortality by decreasing firearm ownership, in which case firearm ownership mediates the association," Wintemute wrote in a 2013 JAMA Internal Medicine paper. "But perhaps, and more plausibly, these laws are more readily enacted in states where the prevalence of firearm ownership is low—there will be less opposition to them—and firearm ownership confounds the association."










Would Cracking Down on Guns in the U.S. Really Reduce Violence? , by Robert VerBruggen, National Review

There is actually no simple correlation between states’ homicide rates and their gun-ownership rates or gun laws. 
This has been shown numerous times, by different people, using different data sets.

A year ago, I took state gun-ownership levels reported by the Washington Post (based on a Centers for Disease Control survey) and compared them with murder rates from the FBI: no correlation. 

The legal scholar Eugene Volokh has compared states’ gun laws (as rated by the anti-gun Brady Campaign) with their murder rates: no correlation. 

David Freddoso of the Washington Examiner, a former National Review reporter, failed to find a correlation even between gun ownership in a state and gun murders specifically, an approach that sets aside the issue of whether gun availability has an effect on non-gun crime. (Guns can deter unarmed criminals, for instance, and criminals without guns may simply switch to other weapons.) 


, I recently redid my analysis with a few tweaks. Instead of relying on a single year of survey data, I averaged three years. (The CDC survey, the best available for state-level numbers, included data on gun ownership only in 2001, 2002, and 2004. Those were the years I looked at.)

And instead of comparing CDC data with murder rates from a different agency, I relied on the CDC’s own estimates of death by assault in those years. Again: no correlation.

------

Left-leaning media outlets, from Mother Jones to National Journal, get around this absence of correlation by reporting numbers on “gun deaths” rather than gun homicides or homicides in general. 

More than 60 percent of gun deaths nationally are suicides, and places with higher gun ownership typically see a higher percentage of their suicides committed with a gun. 

Focusing on the number of gun deaths practically guarantees a finding that guns and violence go together. While it may be true that public policy should also seek to reduce suicide, it is homicide — often a dramatic mass killing — that usually prompts the media and politicians to call for gun control, and it is homicide that most influences people as they consider supporting measures to take away their fellow citizens’ access to guns. 

There are large gaps among the states when it comes to homicide, with rates ranging all the way from about two to twelve per 100,000 in 2013, the most recent year of data available from the CDC. These disparities show that it’s not just guns that cause the United States to have, on average, a higher rate of homicide than other developed countries do. Not only is there no correlation between gun ownership and overall homicide within a state, but there is a strong correlation between gun homicide and non-gun homicide — suggesting that they spring from similar causes, and that some states are simply more violent than others. A closer look at demographic and geographic patterns provides some clues as to why this is.*


Read more at: Would Cracking Down on Guns in the U.S. Really Reduce Violence? | National Review


----------



## 2aguy (Dec 30, 2021)

Dagosa said:


> Especially if they’re in gop states which most are
> The 10 Most Dangerous Cities In America For 2021​
> St. Louis
> Springfield
> ...




Moron...if you click on those links it doesn't list them by how dangerous they are it just gives crime stats, you doofus.....and again, show me the republican mayors. of those cities......because all of them, just about, have democrat mayors and have had them for decades....you idiot....


----------



## Blues Man (Dec 31, 2021)

Dagosa said:


> Wrong. It only prohibits  doing it Knowingly. You can hand a loaded weapon over to a 15 year old if you don’t ask for any proof showing it. How stupid do you think the world is to go for  your gun a holic tripe.


That's not what it says

Maybe you should learn to read

in almost all states no 15 year old can buy a gun


----------



## Blues Man (Dec 31, 2021)

Dagosa said:


> States with weakest gun laws…more gun violence.
> 
> 
> 
> ...





Dagosa said:


> No it doesn’t. You are exempt from the provision by remaining stupid and ignorant of the buy eligibility. That should be easy for gun a. Holics.
> Quote from Fed regs.
> “II. KNOWINGLY SELL, GIVE OR OTHERWISE DISPOSE OF ANY FIREARM OR AMMUNITION TO ANY PERSON WHO FALLS WITHIN ONE OF THE ABOVE CATEGORIES:”


And is one of those above 5 categories people under 18?

No it is not.

Minors are covered in another section of the laws

Maybe you should read the whole thing and take note where is days transfer of a firearm to a juvenile is punishable by up to 1 year in prison and up to 10 years under special circumstances


----------



## Vagabond63 (Jan 1, 2022)

Blues Man said:


> Americans don;t really care what you Brits do.  The question is why do you all seem to care so much about what we do?


Frankly, we don't. Unfortunately some posters on this board try to use the UK to demonstrate that gun control doesn't work. We disagree and feel obliged to comment accordingly


----------



## 2aguy (Jan 1, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> Frankly, we don't. Unfortunately some posters on this board try to use the UK to demonstrate that gun control doesn't work. We disagree and feel obliged to comment accordingly




You can disagree all you want....facts are facts and they are stubborn.....

Police struggle to stop flood of firearms into UK

Police and border officials are struggling to stop a rising supply of illegal firearms being smuggled into Britain, a senior police chief has warned.

Chief constable Andy Cooke, the national police lead for serious and organised crime, said law enforcement had seen an increased supply of guns over the past year, and feared that it would continue in 2019

The Guardian has learned that the situation is so serious that the National Crime Agency has taken the rare step of using its legal powers to direct every single police force to step up the fight against illegal guns.

The NCA has used tasking powers to direct greater intelligence about firearms to be gathered by all 43 forces in England and Wales.

Another senior law enforcement official said that “new and clean” weapons were now being used in the majority of shootings, as opposed to guns once being so difficult to obtain that they would be “rented out” to be used in multiple crimes.

*Cooke, the Merseyside chief constable, told the Guardian: “We in law enforcement expect the rise in new firearms to continue. We are doing all we can. We are not in a position to stop it anytime soon.*

“Law enforcement is more joined up now than before, but the scale of the problem is such that despite a number of excellent firearms seizures, I expect the rise in supply to be a continuing issue.”

The increasing supply of guns belies problems with UK border security and innovations by organised crime gangs. Smugglers have increasingly found new ways and innovative routes to get guns past border defences.

*Cooke said that the dynamics of the streets of British cities had changed and that criminals were more willing to use guns: “If they bring them in people will buy them. It’s a kudos thing for organised criminals.”

Simon Brough, head of firearms at the NCA, said: “The majority of guns being used are new, clean firearms ... which indicates a relatively fluid supply.”*

He said shotguns were 40% of the total, with an increase in burglaries to try and steal them.

*Handguns are the next biggest category,* most often smuggled in from overseas, with ferry ports such as Dover being a popular entry point into the UK for organised crime groups:

“We’re doing a lot to fight back against it,” Brough said, adding that compared to other European countries, the availability in the UK was relatively lower.
==========

*Powerful automatic guns are being smuggled into Britain for use by organised crime gangs.*

*The National Crime Agency and police seized weapons in raids on the homes of previously untouchable “Mr Big”s after receiving intelligence from European detectives who broke an encrypted phone network used by drug dealers and gun traffickers.*

Gangs bring rapid‑fire guns to Britain’s streets
=====

*Matt Perfect, the crime agency’s firearms threat lead, said that new Skorpion and G9A automatic pistols, which fire at a speed comparable to an AK47 assault rifle, were found.*



=====



*Scotland Yard today said police are seizing more deadly automatic weapons from criminals in London as detectives revealed that an innocent bystander was gunned down with a suspected Skorpion sub-machine gun last month .*

Rise in sub-machine guns on London streets


----------



## 2aguy (Jan 1, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> Frankly, we don't. Unfortunately some posters on this board try to use the UK to demonstrate that gun control doesn't work. We disagree and feel obliged to comment accordingly




Look....if the anti-gun extremists would stop pointing at your failed gun control policies as a reason to have more failed gun control over here, I wouldn't bother with your little island.....


----------



## Dagosa (Jan 1, 2022)

Blues Man said:


> And is one of those above 5 categories people under 18?
> 
> No it is not.
> 
> ...


Kind of a ridiculous retort when there is NO FEDERAL LAW  requiring a seller to verify the age of the buyer in private sales. You’re hilarious. Show us the federal regulation that REQUIRES A PRIVATE SELLER OF A FIREARM  to verify the age of a buyer. SHOW US .

I can read. You seem to struggle. My post refers to all prior regulations……the private seller is inlet required to abide by them if he “knows” they is a violation, but no where, is he required to ask of seek proof dufus.

Thats where mandatory BGCs come in non reader.


----------



## Dagosa (Jan 1, 2022)

2aguy said:


> Look....if the anti-gun extremists would stop pointing at your failed gun control policies as a reason to have more failed gun control over here, I wouldn't bother with your little island.....


There is non anti gun extremist. Only those two groups; those  who prefer reasonable gun laws and gun a holics. The majority of every major demographic including gun owners  and Republicans want universal background  checks. Only those of you who want to arm criminals, kids and mentally incompetent, don’t.

*Polling from Everytown and the gun control advocacy and research organization Giffords conducted after the 2020 election found that 93 percent of Americans want universal background checks — including “strong” support from 64 percent of Republicans and 67 percent of gun owners.*


----------



## 2aguy (Jan 1, 2022)

Dagosa said:


> Kind of a ridiculous retort when there is NO FEDERAL LAW  requiring a seller to verify the age of the buyer in private sales. You’re hilarious. Show us the federal regulation that REQUIRES A PRIVATE SELLER OF A FIREARM  to verify the age of a buyer. SHOW US .
> 
> I can read. You seem to struggle. My post refers to all prior regulations……the private seller is inlet required to abide by them if he “knows” they is a violation, but no where, is he required to ask of seek proof dufus.
> 
> Thats where mandatory BGCs come in non reader.




Don't need to......private sellers who are straw buying for criminals are easily captured....are captured, all the time......the problem is that morons like you vote for democrats, who then release actual violent gun criminals over and over again.....

The only reason you push universal background checks is to then demand gun registration...which you need before you ban and confiscate guns.......


----------



## 2aguy (Jan 1, 2022)

Dagosa said:


> There is non anti gun extremist. Only those two groups; those  who prefer reasonable gun laws and gun a holics. The majority of every major demographic including gun owners  and Republicans want universal background  checks. Only those of you who want to arm criminals, kids and mentally incompetent, don’t.
> 
> *Polling from Everytown and the gun control advocacy and research organization Giffords conducted after the 2020 election found that 93 percent of Americans want universal background checks — including “strong” support from 64 percent of Republicans and 67 percent of gun owners.*




Wrong.....the majority of people who answer dumb poll questions don't know the underlying issues involved with background checks or the reasons morons like you want them...

If those answering the polls knew the actual issues and why you guys want universal background checks, they wouldn't support them.


----------



## 2aguy (Jan 1, 2022)

Dagosa said:


> There is non anti gun extremist. Only those two groups; those  who prefer reasonable gun laws and gun a holics. The majority of every major demographic including gun owners  and Republicans want universal background  checks. Only those of you who want to arm criminals, kids and mentally incompetent, don’t.
> 
> *Polling from Everytown and the gun control advocacy and research organization Giffords conducted after the 2020 election found that 93 percent of Americans want universal background checks — including “strong” support from 64 percent of Republicans and 67 percent of gun owners.*




Mentioning Everytown doesn't help you...............

Here....ask this question....

Do you support universal background checks even though they require you to register your guns with the government?


----------



## Dagosa (Jan 1, 2022)

2aguy said:


> Wrong.....the majority of people who answer dumb poll questions don't know the underlying issues involved with background checks or the reasons morons like you want them...
> 
> If those answering the polls knew the actual issues and why you guys want universal background checks, they wouldn't support them.


Typical. Bloviation with no evidence.


----------



## Dagosa (Jan 1, 2022)

2aguy said:


> Do you support universal background checks even though they require you to register your guns with the government?


Ha ha
Every firearm I’ve ever bought new which is well into the dozens, was registered with FFL dealer. Every car, every dangerous explosive we’ve worked with in construction…..and the list goes on. All the permits  we’ve used in contract work….you name it. Every transaction you’ve made with a charge card with a gun dealer or ANYWHERE else is in file. You’re laughable.


----------



## 2aguy (Jan 1, 2022)

Dagosa said:


> Ha ha
> Every firearm I’ve ever bought new which is well into the dozens, was registered with FFL dealer. Every car, every dangerous explosive we’ve worked with in construction…..and the list goes on. All the permits  we’ve used in contract work….you name it. Every transaction you’ve made with a charge card with a gun dealer or ANYWHERE else is in file. You’re laughable.




The governments that committed mass murder and genocide did not register cars so they could ban. them......they registered guns so they could ban guns...then murdered 15 million people in Europe, 25 million in Russia, over 70 million in China........and the socialist hits list just goes on and on........


----------



## Dagosa (Jan 1, 2022)

2aguy said:


> The governments that committed mass murder and genocide did not register cars so they could ban. them......they registered guns so they could ban guns...then murdered 15 million people in Europe, 25 million in Russia, over 70 million in China........and the socialist hits list just goes on and on........


You’re just a rambling snowflake. You’re now on ignore


----------



## Blues Man (Jan 2, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> Frankly, we don't. Unfortunately some posters on this board try to use the UK to demonstrate that gun control doesn't work. We disagree and feel obliged to comment accordingly


The thing is the murder rate in the UK is about the same as it was before all those draconian gun laws were passed.

So those gun laws didn't do anything to lower the murder rate.

The murder rates per 100000 in 1950

UK   .8
US    4.6

The murder rate on 2010

UK  1.14

US  4.8

It seems to me that gun laws have little or nothing to do with murder rates.


----------



## Blues Man (Jan 2, 2022)

Dagosa said:


> Kind of a ridiculous retort when there is NO FEDERAL LAW  requiring a seller to verify the age of the buyer in private sales. You’re hilarious. Show us the federal regulation that REQUIRES A PRIVATE SELLER OF A FIREARM  to verify the age of a buyer. SHOW US .
> 
> I can read. You seem to struggle. My post refers to all prior regulations……the private seller is inlet required to abide by them if he “knows” they is a violation, but no where, is he required to ask of seek proof dufus.
> 
> Thats where mandatory BGCs come in non reader.


Wrong again









						Federal Firearms Laws
					






					www.justice.gov
				




VII. SELL, DELIVER OR TRANSFER FIREARM OR AMMUNITION TO A JUVENILE:​
A. _*18 USC § 922(x)(1).*_ *Punishable by up to 1 year imprisonment* unless transferor had reason to believe juvenile would commit crime ofviolence with gun or ammunition, then up to 10 years imprisonment. May not sell, deliver or transfer a handgun or handgun-onlyammunition to a *person who is under age 18;*


----------



## Vagabond63 (Jan 2, 2022)

2aguy said:


> You can disagree all you want....facts are facts and they are stubborn.....
> 
> Police struggle to stop flood of firearms into UK
> 
> ...


Oh please. A three year old article quoting someone who wanted more resources for his department that you keep copy/pasting. The answer is not to make guns freely available, because that would make criminal's lives easier when they want to get guns, as demonstrated by the thefts from vehicles in America.


----------



## Vagabond63 (Jan 2, 2022)

Blues Man said:


> The thing is the murder rate in the UK is about the same as it was before all those draconian gun laws were passed.
> 
> So those gun laws didn't do anything to lower the murder rate.
> 
> ...


Murder rates? Not GUN murder rates? Interesting.


----------



## Blues Man (Jan 2, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> Oh please. A three year old article quoting someone who wanted more resources for his department that you keep copy/pasting. The answer is not to make guns freely available, because that would make criminal's lives easier when they want to get guns, as demonstrated by the thefts from vehicles in America.


Once again we have a laundry list of people who are legally prohibited from owning or possessing firearms.

The powers that be choose not to enforce these laws.


----------



## Blues Man (Jan 2, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> Murder rates? Not GUN murder rates? Interesting.



WHat does it matter?

You people say that guns cause murder but they obviously don't because there are far more guns in circulation now than there were in 1950 but the murder rate is the same as it was in 1950


----------



## Dagosa (Jan 2, 2022)

Blues Man said:


> Wrong again
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I see your self serving and ignorant selective post does not include the statement  that qualifies all these above regulations. Why is that ? Are you too self absorbed or can’t read ? The dishonesty is obvious. The right has supported the unregulated transfer of firearms in private transactions for decades. What, do you think everyone is as stupid as your post ? . Or, are just the gunaholic  who are  ?

Maybe  it’s just the years of getting away with playing ignorance in the gunaholic transfer of guns to kids and criminals that has been ingrained. Too dishonest to publish the entire set of Fed firearms regulations   ? You’re too afraid to post all of the qualifying remarks of the regs ?

“A. *Knowing possession* or *receipt* of a firearm or ammunition;”

and…..
II. KNOWINGLY SELL, GIVE OR OTHERWISE DISPOSE OF ANY FIREARM OR AMMUNITION TO ANY PERSON WHO FALLS WITHIN ONE OF THE ABOVE CATEGORIES:​


----------



## Blues Man (Jan 3, 2022)

Dagosa said:


> 're the one who said 13 year old kids can buy a gun I see your self serving and ignorant selective post does not include the statement  that qualifies all these above regulations. Why is that ? Are you too self absorbed or can’t read ? The dishonesty is obvious. The right has supported the unregulated transfer of firearms in private transactions for decades. What, do you think everyone is as stupid as your post ? . Or, are just the gunaholic  who are  ?
> 
> Maybe  it’s just the years of getting away with playing ignorance in the gunaholic transfer of guns to kids and criminals that has been ingrained. Too dishonest to publish the entire set of Fed firearms regulations   ? You’re too afraid to post all of the qualifying remarks of the regs ?
> 
> ...


Wow the stupid is strong with you.

Did you read past that line where it actually states that delivering a gun to a juvenile is punishable by a year in jail?

You are the one who was trying to tell me any 13 year old kid can buy a gun.


----------



## Dagosa (Jan 3, 2022)

Blues Man said:


> Wow the stupid is strong with you.
> 
> Did you read past that line where it actually states that delivering a gun to a juvenile is punishable by a year in jail?
> 
> You are the one who was trying to tell me any 13 year old kid can buy a gun.


Typical non response when you know you’ve been had. Any thirteen year old can obtain a firearm on the private market, even if it has to go through an 18 year old with gifting Involved. Sound familiar. It should. It’s just as illegal for a 17 year old as it is for a 13 year old to buy a firearm. You’re so shallow in thinking anyone is gullible enough to fall for your lines that start with insults…..grifter strategy.


----------



## Blues Man (Jan 3, 2022)

Dagosa said:


> Typical non response when you know you’ve been had. Any thirteen year old can obtain a firearm on the private market, even if it has to go through an 18 year old with gifting Involved. Sound familiar. It should. It’s just as illegal for a 17 year old as it is for a 13 year old to buy a firearm. You’re so shallow in thinking anyone is gullible enough to fall for your lines that start with insults…..grifter strategy.


No they can't since the federal gun laws clearly state as I have pointed out to you several times that transferring a firearm to a juvenile is punishable by 1 and possibly up to 10 years in prison.


----------



## Dagosa (Jan 3, 2022)

Blues Man said:


> Did you read past that line where it actually states that delivering a gun to a juvenile is punishable by a year in jail?


Are you that ignorantb not to read the paragraph that follows which clearly states these categories apply only if you do it “ knowingly”. What a joke your comments are. Geesus, states already pass the UBC laws to address this loophole. Give us a break. Now you’re pretending everyone who gets it  is as ignorant as you’re pretending to be.


----------



## Dagosa (Jan 3, 2022)

Blues Man said:


> No they can't since the federal gun laws clearly state as I have pointed out to you several times that transferring a firearm to a juvenile is punishable by 1 and possibly up to 10 years in prison.


Only if they do it “ knowingly” as  the regs DO NOT APPLY TO ANYONE WHO DOESNT ASK FOR PROOF OF ELIGIBILITY.
So why  pretend you’re that ignorant. You’re pretending this paragraph isn’t even in the federal regs …
dah.
II. KNOWINGLY SELL, GIVE OR OTHERWISE DISPOSE OF ANY FIREARM OR AMMUNITION TO ANY PERSON WHO FALLS WITHIN ONE OF THE ABOVE CATEGORIES:​


----------



## Blues Man (Jan 3, 2022)

Dagosa said:


> Are you that ignorantb not to read the paragraph that follows which clearly states these categories apply only if you do it “ knowingly”. What a joke your comments are. Geesus, states already pass the UBC laws to address this loophole. Give us a break. Now you’re pretending everyone who gets it  is as ignorant as you’re pretending to be.


You obviously haven't read past that line.

If you did you would notice that the prohibitions against transferring guns to minors comes well AFTER that line you can't seem to bring yourself to read past.  Tghe list of prohibited people above that line does not include juveniles.


It doesn't say anywhere that one must not knowingly transfer a firearm to a juvenile it clearly states as I have quoted many times so why don;t you read down the page all the way to paragraph VII and then get back to me.


----------



## Blues Man (Jan 3, 2022)

Dagosa said:


> Only if they do it “ knowingly” as  the regs DO NOT APPLY TO ANYONE WHO DOESNT ASK FOR PROOF OF ELIGIBILITY.
> So why  pretend you’re that ignorant. You’re pretending this paragraph isn’t even in the federal regs …
> dah.
> II. KNOWINGLY SELL, GIVE OR OTHERWISE DISPOSE OF ANY FIREARM OR AMMUNITION TO ANY PERSON WHO FALLS WITHIN ONE OF THE ABOVE CATEGORIES:​


I quoted PARAGRAPH VII

you might want to read it


----------



## Dagosa (Jan 3, 2022)

Blues Man said:


> I quoted PARAGRAPH VII
> 
> you might want to read it


Why did you not include this paragraph ? Cat got your tongue ?


----------



## 2aguy (Jan 3, 2022)

Dagosa said:


> Why did you not include this paragraph ? Cat got your tongue ?




Why are you lying?  Just admit you want universal background checks so you can demand gun registration......


----------



## Dagosa (Jan 3, 2022)

Blues Man said:


> You obviously haven't read past that line.
> 
> If you did you would notice that the prohibitions against transferring guns to minors comes well AFTER that line you can't seem to bring yourself to read past.  Tghe list of prohibited people above that line does not include juveniles.
> 
> ...


All persons including felons and juveniles  are categorized initially. This paragraph follws that categorization. Everything after that in any of the categories ONLY APPLIES TO KNOWINGLY VIOLATING THAT THE BUYER IS IN ONE OF THE CATEGORIES. Lets stop pretending. You know it. Other wise there wouldn’t be all the states rushing to fill this loop hole by passing the mandatory universal background check. you’re not a lawyer. Let’s stop pretending. I’m just following the regs legally passed by states with UBCs. If you didn’t have anything to hide, you would have posted this paragraph. But, you’re grifting  and scamming.

You‘re  just  BS ing.. Just like the NRA which is a political action committee for the GOP, they BS their way through the publicity of selling lies so the gun makers can sell guns to felons, kids and mentally incompetent by way of private sales, gifting and avoiding straw buyer prosecution.

You’ve been had. Moving on.


----------



## Blues Man (Jan 4, 2022)

Dagosa said:


> Why did you not include this paragraph ? Cat got your tongue ?


I did many times you just didn't read it

I linked to the federal gun laws but you didn't read past the second paragraph

I quoted the line of paragraph VII 

Post# 106
Post #72

I gave you a link to state gun laws that show most states don;t allow private sales to minors

So now you know you are 100% wrong about a 13 year old being able to buy a gun.

f


----------



## Blues Man (Jan 4, 2022)

Dagosa said:


> All persons including felons and juveniles  are categorized initially. This paragraph follws that categorization. Everything after that in any of the categories ONLY APPLIES TO KNOWINGLY VIOLATING THAT THE BUYER IS IN ONE OF THE CATEGORIES. Lets stop pretending. You know it. Other wise there wouldn’t be all the states rushing to fill this loop hole by passing the mandatory universal background check. you’re not a lawyer. Let’s stop pretending. I’m just following the regs legally passed by states with UBCs. If you didn’t have anything to hide, you would have posted this paragraph. But, you’re grifting  and scamming.
> 
> You‘re  just  BS ing.. Just like the NRA which is a political action committee for the GOP, they BS their way through the publicity of selling lies so the gun makers can sell guns to felons, kids and mentally incompetent by way of private sales, gifting and avoiding straw buyer prosecution.
> 
> You’ve been had. Moving on.


No they are not.

You now look like the fool you are because minors are not included in paragraph 1 and therefore paragfrapgh II does not and did not ever apply to minors


----------



## Dagosa (Jan 5, 2022)

Blues Man said:


> No they are not.
> 
> You now look like the fool you are because minors are not included in paragraph 1 and therefore paragfrapgh II does not and did not ever apply to minors


Gee, your ideas are insane. UBC laws have been enacted in nine states already to combat this loop hole. But you’re smarter, right ?


----------



## Blues Man (Jan 5, 2022)

Dagosa said:


> Gee, your ideas are insane. UBC laws have been enacted in nine states already to combat this loop hole. But you’re smarter, right ?


Paragraph II does not apply to minors because minors are not mentioned in Paragraph I

So just admit you were wrong when you said any 13 year old can buy a gun


----------



## 2aguy (Jan 5, 2022)

Dagosa said:


> Gee, your ideas are insane. UBC laws have been enacted in nine states already to combat this loop hole. But you’re smarter, right ?




And they do nothing to stop straw buyers.......


The only reason you want universal background checks is so you can later demand gun registration...which you need to ban and confiscate guns.


----------



## Dagosa (Jan 5, 2022)

Blues Man said:


> Paragraph II does not apply to minors because minors are not mentioned in Paragraph I
> 
> So just admit you were wrong when you said any 13 year old can buy a gun


Of course they can. Thats laughable.  Buying and transferring firearms is done daily to underaged , felons and mentally incompetent Throughout the United States. 
.


----------



## Dagosa (Jan 5, 2022)

Blues Man said:


> Paragraph II does not apply to minors because minors are not mentioned in Paragraph I
> 
> So just admit you were wrong when you said any 13 year old can buy a gun


You still cannot address the comment can you. You still keep repeating the same tripe. There is no federal law requiring a BGC in private sales. Case closed.


----------



## Blues Man (Jan 6, 2022)

Dagosa said:


> Of course they can. Thats laughable.  Buying and transferring firearms is done daily to underaged , felons and mentally incompetent Throughout the United States.
> .


It is also illegal.

Punishable by up to 10 years in federal prison.

It's not any law abiding gun owner's fault what criminals do.  You could require BG checks for all porivate sales and some people would still get guns illegally.  

If you own a car are you responsible for other people if they drive drunk or speed or otherwise break the law?


----------



## Blues Man (Jan 6, 2022)

Dagosa said:


> You still cannot address the comment can you. You still keep repeating the same tripe. There is no federal law requiring a BGC in private sales. Case closed.


So what?

YOU said that any 13 year old can buy a gun in a private sale and you are wrong.


----------



## Dagosa (Jan 6, 2022)

Blues Man said:


> It is also illegal.
> 
> Punishable by up to 10 years in federal prison.
> 
> ...











						This 13-year-old tried to buy porn, lottery tickets, and a gun. Guess which one he got.
					

Gun control?




					www.vox.com


----------



## Dagosa (Jan 6, 2022)

Blues Man said:


> So what?
> 
> YOU said that any 13 year old can buy a gun in a private sale and you are wrong.


----------



## Dagosa (Jan 6, 2022)

Blues Man said:


> It is also illegal.
> 
> Punishable by up to 10 years in federal prison.
> 
> ...


----------



## Dagosa (Jan 6, 2022)

Blues Man said:


> So what?
> 
> YOU said that any 13 year old can buy a gun in a private sale and you are wrong.


----------



## Blues Man (Jan 6, 2022)

Dagosa said:


> This 13-year-old tried to buy porn, lottery tickets, and a gun. Guess which one he got.
> 
> 
> Gun control?
> ...


OOHH an anecdote

We should throw him and the guy who sold it to him in federal prison


----------



## Blues Man (Jan 6, 2022)

Dagosa said:


>


Gee even a 13 year old can be a piece of shit criminal.

He should be in jail 

FYI there will always be pieces of shit who break the law that in no way means that the laws aren't there


----------



## 2aguy (Jan 6, 2022)

Blues Man said:


> OOHH an anecdote
> 
> We should throw him and the guy who sold it to him in federal prison




I love it when they take one thing, a set up.....and then say that now all 600 million guns in the country need to be banned and confiscated....love that.


----------



## Dagosa (Jan 6, 2022)

Blues Man said:


> Gee even a 13 year old can be a piece of shit criminal.
> 
> He should be in jail
> 
> FYI there will always be pieces of shit who break the law that in no way means that the laws aren't there


Obviously, you don’t know much. The seller did nothing wrong selling the gun to a 13 year old. He didn’t ask for an ID which the federal law doesn’t require. 
When  selling cigarettes, you are obligated to ask for an ID by the FDA. That’s why it’s illegal to sell cigarettes to a thirteen year old. There is no federal law requiring the seller to ask for ID to sell a firearm. So, no crime has been committed selling a firearm to a 13 year old….only fools like you gunaholics play this game. 








						Selling Tobacco Products in Retail Stores
					

Retailers who sell tobacco products can find resources and information on how to comply with all applicable federal laws and regulations, including T21.




					www.fda.gov


----------



## Dagosa (Jan 6, 2022)

Blues Man said:


> FYI there will always be pieces of shit who break the law that in no way means that the laws aren't there


And there will always be piece of shit gunaholics who sell guns to the underaged and felons because they can get away with it as the man selling did in video. He committed no federal crime arming a 13 year old.

You have no logic other then to say, the 13 year old is obligated to turn himself in, I suppose the felon is too while under federal law now, the seller can do no wrong. He doesn’t have to require a BGC like an FFL dealer. You gunaholics want to sell your guns on the private market to anyone, any where, anytime.


----------



## Dagosa (Jan 6, 2022)

Blues Man said:


> OOHH an anecdote
> 
> We should throw him and the guy who sold it to him in federal prison


You can’t put  the guy who sold him the gun in federal prison, He broke no law.
Now we have established that I was right and you were typically wrong. It’s easy for underaged 13 -17 year olds to buy a firearm, even in the open at a publicly attended gun show. It’s not called the “gun show loop hole for nothing.“

You need to look up the meaning of “anecdote”.
This actually happened. It is factual evidence that I am right and you are wrong.


----------



## Blues Man (Jan 7, 2022)

Dagosa said:


> Obviously, you don’t know much. The seller did nothing wrong selling the gun to a 13 year old. He didn’t ask for an ID which the federal law doesn’t require.
> When  selling cigarettes, you are obligated to ask for an ID by the FDA. That’s why it’s illegal to sell cigarettes to a thirteen year old. There is no federal law requiring the seller to ask for ID to sell a firearm. So, no crime has been committed selling a firearm to a 13 year old….only fools like you gunaholics play this game.
> 
> 
> ...


Not according to federal gun laws which clearly prohibit sales to juveniles 

As I have repeatedly shown you.


----------



## Blues Man (Jan 7, 2022)

Dagosa said:


> And there will always be piece of shit gunaholics who sell guns to the underaged and felons because they can get away with it as the man selling did in video. He committed no federal crime arming a 13 year old.
> 
> You have no logic other then to say, the 13 year old is obligated to turn himself in, I suppose the felon is too while under federal law now, the seller can do no wrong. He doesn’t have to require a BGC like an FFL dealer. You gunaholics want to sell your guns on the private market to anyone, any where, anytime.


So the fuck what?

I am not responsible for any of that shit.

I have never sold a gun in a private sale.  I have never bought a gun in a private sale.

And even if I did I would insist on a background check.

You blame all gun owners for the misdeeds of a minuscule percentage.

So maybe we should blame you for all kinds of crimes too.


----------



## Blues Man (Jan 7, 2022)

Dagosa said:


> And there will always be piece of shit gunaholics who sell guns to the underaged and felons because they can get away with it as the man selling did in video. He committed no federal crime arming a 13 year old.
> 
> You have no logic other then to say, the 13 year old is obligated to turn himself in, I suppose the felon is too while under federal law now, the seller can do no wrong. He doesn’t have to require a BGC like an FFL dealer. You gunaholics want to sell your guns on the private market to anyone, any where, anytime.


The tell me why does it say in those federal gun laws that selling to a juvenile is punishable by up to 10 years in prison?


----------



## Dagosa (Jan 7, 2022)

Blues Man said:


> The tell me why does it say in those federal gun laws that selling to a juvenile is punishable by up to 10 years in prison?


It says nothing. You're remarks are foolish. The man selling the gun to the 13 year old at the gun show, committed no federal crime. He didn’t ask for an ID and he wasn’t required to. That absolves him from all responsibility. You Know that. You’re just pretending to be ignorant. You’re doing a good job. A man selling a gun in public to a 13 year old is in better position too avoid prosecution then a cashier who sells a pack of cigarettes to a 13 year old where they are required to ask for an ID. Case closed, go to bed, I was right as usual, you are wrong as usual.


----------



## Blues Man (Jan 8, 2022)

Dagosa said:


> It says nothing. You're remarks are foolish. The man selling the gun to the 13 year old at the gun show, committed no federal crime. He didn’t ask for an ID and he wasn’t required to. That absolves him from all responsibility. You Know that. You’re just pretending to be ignorant. You’re doing a good job. A man selling a gun in public to a 13 year old is in better position too avoid prosecution then a cashier who sells a pack of cigarettes to a 13 year old where they are required to ask for an ID. Case closed, go to bed, I was right as usual, you are wrong as usual.


THE FUCKING LAW SAYS IT IS ILLEGAL TO SELL GUNS OR AMMUNITION TO JUVENILES IN PARAGRAPH VII.

THE FUCKING PROBLEM IS THAT WE DO NOT ENFORCE THE GUN LAWS WE ALRRADY HAVE


----------



## Dagosa (Jan 8, 2022)

Blues Man said:


> THE FUCKING LAW SAYS IT IS ILLEGAL TO SELL GUNS OR AMMUNITION TO JUVENILES IN PARAGRAPH VII.
> 
> THE FUCKING PROBLEM IS THAT WE DO NOT ENFORCE THE GUN LAWS WE ALRRADY HAVE


You’re remarks are of a fool. You know nothing about the law. the guy would not have sold the gun to a 13 year old in public for all to see, if he fearEd prosecution. “Knowingly” is the defense…dah.
One of those times you can’t believe your eyes…..you’re wrong. It is not a federal offense to sell a firearm arm to a  13 year old, if you pretend you didn’t know he was 13 by not asking for proof. You have a gunaholic pin head .


----------



## Blues Man (Jan 9, 2022)

Dagosa said:


> You’re remarks are of a fool. You know nothing about the law. the guy would not have sold the gun to a 13 year old in public for all to see, if he fearEd prosecution. “Knowingly” is the defense…dah.
> One of those times you can’t believe your eyes…..you’re wrong. It is not a federal offense to sell a firearm arm to a  13 year old, if you pretend you didn’t know he was 13 by not asking for proof. You have a gunaholic pin head .


So because someone breaks the law that means laws don't exist?

How fucking stupid are you anyway?


----------



## Dagosa (Jan 9, 2022)

Blues Man said:


> So because someone breaks the law that means laws don't exist?
> 
> How fucking stupid are you anyway?


You’re the gunaholic. Look in the mirror at the moron.


----------



## Blues Man (Jan 9, 2022)

Dagosa said:


> You’re the gunaholic. Look in the mirror at the moron.


Hardly.

I own a couple handguns and 2 long guns.

And that just scares the shit out of you doesn't it?


----------



## Dagosa (Jan 9, 2022)

Blues Man said:


> Hardly.
> 
> I own a couple handguns and 2 long guns.
> 
> And that just scares the shit out of you doesn't it?


Wow, you measure your intellect and your manhood by the number of firearms you have ? Guess you just answered that one. Sounds like the gunaholics here supply the best reasons for universal background checks. I guess you’re bragging you’re too scary a dude  to own a firearm.


----------



## Blues Man (Jan 9, 2022)

Dagosa said:


> Wow, you measure your intellect and your manhood by the number of firearms you have ? Guess you just answered that one. Sounds like the gunaholics here supply the best reasons for universal background checks. I guess you’re bragging you’re too scary a dude  to own a firearm.


I never mentioned intellect or manhood but you did. I wonder why that is.

A gun is a tool not unlike a hammer, wrench or screwdriver.

But you're probably afraid of those things too.


----------



## Dagosa (Jan 9, 2022)

Blues Man said:


> I never mentioned intellect or manhood but you did. I wonder why that is.
> 
> A gun is a tool not unlike a hammer, wrench or screwdriver.
> 
> But you're probably afraid of those things too.


That’s because I’m always concerned about unqualified people having access to firearms. If incompetence is a valid reason, you gunaholics lead the pack.

You have no absolute right to posses  a firearm in a like manner as  a hammer or
a drill. That’s ridiculous. Your ignorance of firearms is obvious. No,  a firearm is completely unlike a hammer or drill.

Afraid of tools ? You must be looking in the mirror again.


----------



## Blues Man (Jan 10, 2022)

Dagosa said:


> That’s because I’m always concerned about unqualified people having access to firearms. If incompetence is a valid reason, you gunaholics lead the pack.
> 
> You have no absolute right to posses  a firearm in a like manner as  a hammer or
> a drill. That’s ridiculous. Your ignorance of firearms is obvious. No,  a firearm is completely unlike a hammer or drill.
> ...


Yeah whatever.

FYI the term gunaholic is just plain stupid.  I know you're trying to be clever but you just sound like an idiot.

And I don't think that the average gun owner is obsessed with guns you do because you're afraid of guns and think owning even one is too many.

And a gun is a tool for self defense or hunting that a minuscule percentage of people commit crimes with guns is just a fact of human nature.


----------



## Dagosa (Jan 10, 2022)

Blues Man said:


> Yeah whatever.
> 
> FYI the term gunaholic is just plain stupid.  I know you're trying to be clever but you just sound like an idiot.
> 
> ...


The firearm certainly isn’t a tool like a hammer or drill as you pretended. It’s regulated like other  dangerous tools and components are for use by the public.


Gunaholic is an appropriate term. You have an uncontrollable urge and support around firearms that just isn’t correct. Those of us who have  used and use  firearms also and still think they are dangerous and need more regulation are the sane ones. Btw, I doubt there are many  gunaholics out there with any more  experience and knowledge of firearms then those of us who do want common sense regulations and have lived with firearms are entire life.


----------



## Blues Man (Jan 10, 2022)

Dagosa said:


> The firearm certainly isn’t a tool like a hammer or drill as you pretended. It’s regulated like other  dangerous tools and components are for use by the public.
> 
> 
> Gunaholic is an appropriate term. You have an uncontrollable urge and support around firearms that just isn’t correct. Those of us who have  used and use  firearms also and still think they are dangerous and need more regulation are the sane ones. Btw, I doubt there are many  gunaholics out there with any more  experience and knowledge of firearms then those of us who do want common sense regulations and have lived with firearms are entire life.


Of course it is.

Shit more people get killed by knives annually than than AR 15 rifles.  You must be terrified of cutlery.


----------



## Dagosa (Jan 10, 2022)

Blues Man said:


> Of course it is.
> 
> Shit more people get killed by knives annually than than AR 15 rifles.  You must be terrified of cutlery.


You’re a fool  to make such a comparison. It shows why the term gunaholic is appropriate. Literally nearly every adult uses cutlery daily. They don’t use an AR15. The death rates per use of firearms far exceeds that of cutlery. Only a fool would make such a statement otherwise…gunaholic.


----------



## Blues Man (Jan 10, 2022)

Dagosa said:


> You’re a fool  to make such a comparison. It shows why the term gunaholic is appropriate. Literally nearly every adult uses cutlery daily. They don’t use an AR15. The death rates per use of firearms far exceeds that of cutlery. Only a fool would make such a statement otherwise…gunaholic.


Guns aren't as dangerous as you think.

Stop living in fear


----------



## Dagosa (Jan 10, 2022)

Blues Man said:


> Guns aren't as dangerous as you think.
> 
> Stop living in fear


You obviously don’t think much.


----------



## Blues Man (Jan 11, 2022)

Dagosa said:


> You obviously don’t think much.


Yeah millions of people use guns hundreds of millions times a year and less than 500 die from accidental shootings and a minuscule fraction of people use guns to kill anyone.

But you're so afraid of getting killed by a person with a gun that you want to control everyone else.

You have a .0041% chance of being murdered by a person using a gun.

Stop living in fear.


----------



## Vagabond63 (Jan 11, 2022)

Just to put this into some sort of perspective. In 2020, there were 8029 murders using handguns in the USA, over the same period in the UK there were 14 (including suicides). Tell me again, that gun control isn't working.








						Homicides by murder weapon in the U.S. 2021 | Statista
					

Handguns are by far the most common murder weapon used in the United States, accounting for 6,012 homicides in 2021.




					www.statista.com
				







__





						Gun Control Network
					






					gun-control-network.org


----------



## 2aguy (Jan 11, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> Just to put this into some sort of perspective. In 2020, there were 8029 murders using handguns in the USA, over the same period in the UK there were 14 (including suicides). Tell me again, that gun control isn't working.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




At the same time....

330 million Americans who are in a country that shares a border with the narco state of Mexico....

600 million guns in the U.S...

Over 21.5 million Americans can carry guns in public for self defense...that would be hand guns...

*Over 21.5 million people....Do you understand how big that number is....*

70-80% of the murder victims were criminals...not normal people.....of the rest, the majority are the friends, family and associates of the criminals shot by mistake.....or with the criminal......

Americans use their legal guns 1.1 million times a year to stop rapes, robberies, murders, stabbings, beatings, mass public shootings.......according to the Centers for Disease Control...1.5 million times a year according to the Dept. of Justice, or 1.67 million times a year according to the Firearms survey of 2021......


And since you are here...please answer the following questions...

*A woman is grabbed by a violent serial rapist at a bus stop, a train platform or in her apartment...he plans on beating, raping and murdering her. She has a gun, and can stop the rape with the gun......

Do you want her to use that gun to stop the rape?

A woman stops an attack with a gun, a brutal rape, torture and murder...in a public space....if you had the ability to go back in time, and prevent her from having that gun...would you?
=====

The British government will not allow a woman to own and carry a gun to prevent being gang raped in a London park.....saying she does not have "good reason," to own the gun.

A member of the House of Lords wants to quail hunt with his rich friends on his private country estate, and the British government gives him the gun....because he has "good reason."

Does this make sense to you?*


----------



## 2aguy (Jan 11, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> Just to put this into some sort of perspective. In 2020, there were 8029 murders using handguns in the USA, over the same period in the UK there were 14 (including suicides). Tell me again, that gun control isn't working.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Your criminals, at this point in time.....do not shoot each other with the illegal guns they already have.......that is changing.  Your drug gangs are now dominated by foreigners...who do not care for British law or customs, and who do not fear British police....

The British police have stated they can't stop the increasing flow of illegal guns........so their not shooting each other has nothing to do with your gun control laws......they have guns, they shoot to wound, not to kill.....that too is changing...

Police struggle to stop flood of firearms into UK


Police and border officials are struggling to stop a rising supply of illegal firearms being smuggled into Britain, a senior police chief has warned.

Chief constable Andy Cooke, the national police lead for serious and organised crime, said law enforcement had seen an increased supply of guns over the past year, and feared that it would continue in 2019

The Guardian has learned that the situation is so serious that the National Crime Agency has taken the rare step of using its legal powers to direct every single police force to step up the fight against illegal guns.

The NCA has used tasking powers to direct greater intelligence about firearms to be gathered by all 43 forces in England and Wales.

Another senior law enforcement official said that “new and clean” weapons were now being used in the majority of shootings, as opposed to guns once being so difficult to obtain that they would be “rented out” to be used in multiple crimes.

*Cooke, the Merseyside chief constable, told the Guardian: “We in law enforcement expect the rise in new firearms to continue. We are doing all we can. We are not in a position to stop it anytime soon.*

“Law enforcement is more joined up now than before, but the scale of the problem is such that despite a number of excellent firearms seizures, I expect the rise in supply to be a continuing issue.”

The increasing supply of guns belies problems with UK border security and innovations by organised crime gangs. Smugglers have increasingly found new ways and innovative routes to get guns past border defences.


*Cooke said that the dynamics of the streets of British cities had changed and that criminals were more willing to use guns: “If they bring them in people will buy them. It’s a kudos thing for organised criminals.”

Simon Brough, head of firearms at the NCA, said: “The majority of guns being used are new, clean firearms ... which indicates a relatively fluid supply.”*

He said shotguns were 40% of the total, with an increase in burglaries to try and steal them.

*Handguns are the next biggest category,* most often smuggled in from overseas, with ferry ports such as Dover being a popular entry point into the UK for organised crime groups:

“We’re doing a lot to fight back against it,” Brough said, adding that compared to other European countries, the availability in the UK was relatively lower.


==========

10/13/21

*Powerful automatic guns are being smuggled into Britain for use by organised crime gangs.*
The National Crime Agency and police seized weapons in raids on the homes of previously untouchable “Mr Big”s after receiving intelligence from European detectives who broke an encrypted phone network used by drug dealers and gun traffickers.
Gangs bring rapid‑fire guns to Britain’s streets


2/29/21
Matt Perfect, the crime agency’s firearms threat lead, said that new Skorpion and G9A automatic pistols, which fire at a speed comparable to an AK47 assault rifle, were found.

=====

*cotland Yard today said police are seizing more deadly automatic weapons from criminals in London as detectives revealed that an innocent bystander was gunned down with a suspected Skorpion sub-machine gun last month .*
Rise in sub-machine guns on London streets
Revealed - The deadly cache of guns taken off West Midlands streets
A former undercover cop who snared members of the Burger Bar Boys has warned violent gangs are in an “arms race” to control the West Midlands’ illegal drugs trade.
Neil Woods, now a campaigner to legalise recreational drugs for rehabilitation benefits, said criminals are willing to use “extreme violence” to gain an upper hand on their competitors.
That includes “importing” illegal firearms from places like the “Balkans” region of south eastern Europe onto the streets of the West Midlands, ready for combat.
UK Gangs In "Arms Race" Despite Gun Control Laws

Illegal weapons in the city have been increasing over the last few years, figures show.
Diana Fawcett, the charity's chief executive, told Sky News: "At a time when the number of homicides has been falling, deaths related to gun crime are showing significant increases which is incredibly concerning.More than 600 children in the UK were arrested for suspected firearm offences last year amid the coronavirus pandemic, new figures reveal.
A Sky News investigation has found children as young as 11 were among more than 2,000 youths detained for alleged crimes involving guns, imitation firearms and air weapons between 2018 and January 2021.
-----
Simeon Moore, who carried a gun aged 15 when he was a member of a notorious Birmingham gang, said young people arming themselves often believe they are doing "the right thing".
---
"From knives, we started to carry guns. For me, at the time it was a means of protection.
"I was walking around and at any point I could get beat up, stabbed or have my head blown off.


----------



## M14 Shooter (Jan 11, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> Just to put this into some sort of perspective. In 2020, there were 8029 murders using handguns in the USA, over the same period in the UK there were 14 (including suicides). Tell me again, that gun control isn't working.


This is where I ask you to demonstrate the necessary relationship between the gun laws in the UK and the lower rate of gun-related violence in the UK -- and you then run away.


----------



## Blues Man (Jan 11, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> Just to put this into some sort of perspective. In 2020, there were 8029 murders using handguns in the USA, over the same period in the UK there were 14 (including suicides). Tell me again, that gun control isn't working.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The murder rate in the UK is the same as it was in 1950 before all your beloved draconian gun laws were passed  if they worked then the murder rate should be lower than it was before all those laws were passed.

The murder rate in the US is the same as it was in 1950 despite the fact that there are more guns owned by more citizens.

If guns caused murder then the murder rate should have gone up proportionally to the number of guns in circulation.

So it's pretty obvious that gun laws have no real impact on the murder rates.


----------



## M14 Shooter (Jan 11, 2022)

Blues Man said:


> The murder rate in the UK is the same as it was in 1950 before all your beloved draconian gun laws were passed  if they worked then the murder rate should be lower than it was before all those laws were passed.
> The murder rate in the US is the same as it was in 1950 despite the fact that there are more guns owned by more citizens.
> If guns caused murder then the murder rate should have gone up proportionally to the number of guns in circulation.
> So it's pretty obvious that gun laws have no real impact on the murder rates.


This is why he runs away every time I challenge him to demonstrate the necessary relationship he claims.


----------



## Blues Man (Jan 11, 2022)

M14 Shooter said:


> This is why he runs away every time I challenge him to demonstrate the necessary relationship he claims.


The causes of violent crimes are far more complex and subject to many more variables than just gun laws


----------



## M14 Shooter (Jan 11, 2022)

Blues Man said:


> The causes of violent crimes are far more complex and subject to many more variables than just gun laws


Thus, my challenge.


----------



## Dagosa (Jan 12, 2022)

Blues Man said:


> Yeah millions of people use guns hundreds of millions times a year and less than 500 die from accidental shootings and a minuscule fraction of people use guns to kill anyone.
> 
> But you're so afraid of getting killed by a person with a gun that you want to control everyone else.
> 
> ...


We here  owned and own more firearms in one caliber then you own totally now. So your little comment was hilarious about owning four firearms. We have and had  a concealed weapons permit for decades. We’ve worked in several occupations where carrying a weapon was mandatory. It was my job. You don’t know Jack shit, along with many in the scared shitless gunaholic crowd. You make up factless sht as you go along.


----------



## Dagosa (Jan 12, 2022)

Blues Man said:


> The causes of violent crimes are far more complex and subject to many more variables than just gun laws


It includes gun laws. The strict regulation of auto weapons for decades vs the number of them actually used in shootings is irrefutable that regulation works. States with stronger gun laws have on average, fewer gun crimes


----------



## Dagosa (Jan 12, 2022)

Blues Man said:


> Guns aren't as dangerous as you think.
> 
> Stop living in fear


That’s ridiculous. You don’t know what anyone else thinks. . The discharge of a firearm can kill someone well beyond the intended range, well out to hundreds of yards. There are very few ”tools”   capable of this range. When they are, like explosives, they are highly regulated. Thinking that firearms aren’t that dangerous and in need regulation is ridiculously naive.


----------



## Blues Man (Jan 12, 2022)

Dagosa said:


> We here  owned and own more firearms in one caliber then you own totally now. So your little comment was hilarious about owning four firearms. We have and had  a concealed weapons permit for decades. We’ve worked in several occupations where carrying a weapon was mandatory. It was my job. You don’t know Jack shit, along with many in the scared shitless gunaholic crowd. You make up factless sht as you go along.


Yeah says the guy who lives in terror of guns


----------



## Blues Man (Jan 12, 2022)

Dagosa said:


> That’s ridiculous. You don’t know what anyone else thinks. . The discharge of a firearm can kill someone well beyond the intended range, well out to hundreds of yards. There are very few ”tools”   capable of this range. When they are, like explosives, they are highly regulated. Thinking that firearms aren’t that dangerous and in need regulation is ridiculously naive.


So what?

Lots of things can kill people and lots of things kill more people than guns do.

Stop living in fear


----------



## Dagosa (Jan 12, 2022)

Blues Man said:


> Yeah says the guy who lives in terror of guns


Says the guy who thinks owning a couple of guns makes him an expert. Geesus, you post like you never read a firearm owners manual. Geesus, maybe you haven’t.


----------



## Blues Man (Jan 12, 2022)

Dagosa said:


> It includes gun laws. The strict regulation of auto weapons for decades vs the number of them actually used in shootings is irrefutable that regulation works. States with stronger gun laws have on average, fewer gun crimes


So what?

I'm not responsible for people who commit crimes.

We need to enforce the gun laws we already have on the books


----------



## Blues Man (Jan 12, 2022)

Dagosa said:


> Says the guy who thinks owning a couple of guns makes him an expert. Geesus, you post like you never read a firearm owners manual. Geesus, maybe you haven’t.


I never said I was an expert.

I'm just not afraid of people who own a gun like you are


----------



## Dagosa (Jan 12, 2022)

Blues Man said:


> I never said I was an expert.
> 
> I'm just not afraid of people who own a gun like you are


Some working knowledge would be useful. Seriously, maybe a “ another” stint in the military would help. Aamof, everyone should be required to serve. Maybe what the TI had to say about firearms at the range didn’t take. No one regulates firearm use more then the military and supplies a good dose of respect and regulation for their use. . You obviously forgot, if you ever did.


----------



## Blues Man (Jan 12, 2022)

Dagosa said:


> Some working knowledge would be useful. Seriously, maybe a “ another” stint in the military would help. Aamof, everyone should be required to serve. Maybe what the TI had to say about firearms at the range didn’t take. No one regulates firearm use more then the military and supplies a good dose of respect and regulation for their use. . You obviously forgot, if you ever did.


Please

I've been shooting for 40 years and don;t need an internet moron like you to tell me anything about gun safety.

You're the one all scared shitless that some people own guns


----------



## 2aguy (Jan 12, 2022)

Blues Man said:


> The causes of violent crimes are far more complex and subject to many more variables than just gun laws




The first major cause is fatherless homes...this creates crime and poverty, which simply increase crime and poverty...


----------



## Dagosa (Jan 12, 2022)

Blues Man said:


> I'm just not afraid of people who own a gun like you are


“People”…..
wow, that’s a broad swath. That includes criminals, children and underaged


Blues Man said:


> Please
> 
> I've been shooting for 40 years and don;t need an internet moron like you to tell me anything about gun safety.
> 
> You're the one all scared shitless that some people own guns


Wow, just the act of shooting makes you nothing. No more then playing golf for 40 years makes you an expert or even that knowledgeable in playing golf. Some of the most misinformed people in the world of golf, and shooting, have been doing it wrong for 40 years.

Just by you using that as an explanation of firearm knowledge indicates to everyone you know little about firsarms in general. Working at a job for decades that  required  firearm training and certification might mean something.  Shooting your mouth off for 40 years doesn’t cut it.


----------



## Blues Man (Jan 13, 2022)

Dagosa said:


> “People”…..
> wow, that’s a broad swath. That includes criminals, children and underaged
> 
> Wow, just the act of shooting makes you nothing. No more then playing golf for 40 years makes you an expert or even that knowledgeable in playing golf. Some of the most misinformed people in the world of golf, and shooting, have been doing it wrong for 40 years.
> ...


Gun safety isn't complicated unless you're a fucking moron.

And the FACT that there are less than 500 accidental gun deaths annually despite hundreds of millions of instances of of gun use annually proves that gun owners are practicing gun safety at a high level.

In fact if any other activity had that kind of safety record it would be considered one of the safest activities a person could engage in.

But people like you who live in fear can't seem to understand that.

Tell me do you sleep on the floor because there is a minute chance you could die falling out of bed?

Or maybe your Mommy still has the safety rails up.  You know those can kill you too .


----------



## Dagosa (Jan 13, 2022)

Blues Man said:


> Gun safety isn't complicated unless you're a fucking moron.


It seems to have escaped you.

But your crowd is fine with firearms in the hands of criminals, kids and mentally and  incompetent. I see you‘ve changed  the topic to accidents. You failed again so now you’re changing gears to anything to save face. That works with gunaholic, the most afraid group in politics. Want to see one In action ?
The gunaholic hero.


----------



## Blues Man (Jan 13, 2022)

Dagosa said:


> It seems to have escaped you.


Like i said I don't need an internet moron like you to tell me anything about gun safety.

And the actual facts prove that gun owners in general are extremely safe with their guns.

So once again you got nothing.


----------



## Dagosa (Jan 13, 2022)

Blues Man said:


> And the actual facts prove that gun owners in general are extremely safe with their guns.


Seeing that I‘ve owned  more firearms of one caliber then you brag about owning  altogether, I guess that makes me much smarter and safer then you. After all, “gun owners” in your mind includes the underaged, felons and mentally ill. I would never make the statement you just made. It’s stupid.


----------



## Blues Man (Jan 13, 2022)

Dagosa said:


> Seeing that I‘ve owned  more firearms of one caliber then you brag about owning  altogether, I guess that makes me much smarter and safer then you. After all, “gun owners” in your mind includes the underaged, felons and mentally ill.


Oh so you're a gunaholic.

And I've owned many more guns than I actually have right now so once again you got nothing.

And Like i said the stats speak for themselves.

Less than 500 accidental gun deaths annually and hundreds of millions of incidences of legal gun use annually.

Proof that Us gun owners practice  gun safety at a high level and they don't need you to tell them how to do it.


----------



## Dagosa (Jan 13, 2022)

Blues Man said:


> Oh so you're a gunaholic.
> 
> And I've owned many more guns than I actually have right now so once again you got nothing.
> 
> ...


You can’t control your urge to make up sht….that makes you , not me a gunaholic. It’s not the number of firearms you have, which you seem to brag about or the number of years you’ve lived in a dream world.
I’m not impressed that you think because you own four firearms you know wtf you are talking about. Your posts are filled with falsehoods.


----------



## 2aguy (Jan 13, 2022)

Dagosa said:


> “People”…..
> wow, that’s a broad swath. That includes criminals, children and underaged
> 
> Wow, just the act of shooting makes you nothing. No more then playing golf for 40 years makes you an expert or even that knowledgeable in playing golf. Some of the most misinformed people in the world of golf, and shooting, have been doing it wrong for 40 years.
> ...




600 million guns in private hands, and growing.....over 21.5 million Americans legally carry guns in public for self defense.......

330 million Americans...

Accidental guns deaths?

486.....



			Application Dispatcher


----------



## 2aguy (Jan 13, 2022)

Dagosa said:


> It seems to have escaped you.
> 
> But your crowd is fine with firearms in the hands of criminals, kids and mentally and  incompetent. I see you‘ve changed  the topic to accidents. You failed again so now you’re changing gears to anything to save face. That works with gunaholic, the most afraid group in politics. Want to see one In action ?
> The gunaholic hero.




The most afraid group of people are you leftists...you're afraid of unvaxxinated, you are afraid of gun owners........and yet you keep releasing the actually dangerous criminals over and over again....

You are afraid and stupid at the same time....


----------



## Blues Man (Jan 13, 2022)

Dagosa said:


> You can’t control your urge to make up sht….that makes you , not me a gunaholic. It’s not the number of firearms you have, which you seem to brag about or the number of years you’ve lived in a dream world.
> I’m not impressed that you think because you own four firearms you know wtf you are talking about. Your posts are filled with falsehoods.


I haven't made anything up unlike you who keeps trying to tell me that federal gun laws don't expressly prohibit sales to juveniles.

You have a 99.996% chance of NOT getting murdered by a person using a gun but you're still afraid of people owning guns

Gun owners have an excellent safety record as the incidences of accidental deaths only occur in about .0005% of all gun use annually

NONE of that is made up.


----------



## Dagosa (Jan 13, 2022)

Blues Man said:


> You have a 99.996% chance of NOT getting murdered by a person using a gun but you're still afraid of people owning guns


Your words and completely bogus. That’s what makes you a gunaholic. You jump from stats on murder to accidental deaths just to sound relevant. You use the word  “people” which includes criminals, convicted felons, underaged and mentally challenged, grog users and drug pushers. Your posts are mishmash of woo woo with irrelevant material.


----------



## 2aguy (Jan 13, 2022)

Dagosa said:


> Your words and completely bogus. That’s what makes you a gunaholic. You jump from stats on murder to accidental deaths just to sound relevant. You use the word  “people” which includes criminals, convicted felons, underaged and mentally challenged, grog users and drug pushers. Your posts are mishmash of woo woo with irrelevant material.



Do your parents know you are on the computer again?  You know they grounded you from all electronics and social media...


----------



## Otis Mayfield (Jan 13, 2022)

Dagosa said:


> Especially if they’re in gop states which most are
> The 10 Most Dangerous Cities In America For 2021​
> St. Louis
> Springfield
> ...



Good to see New Orleans drop on the list.

Wichita? Why Wichita?


----------



## Blues Man (Jan 14, 2022)

Dagosa said:


> Your words and completely bogus. That’s what makes you a gunaholic. You jump from stats on murder to accidental deaths just to sound relevant. You use the word  “people” which includes criminals, convicted felons, underaged and mentally challenged, grog users and drug pushers. Your posts are mishmash of woo woo with irrelevant material.


No it's not.
I guess you don't understand statistics.

in 2020 13620 people were murdered by a person using a gun

There are 330000000 people in the US

13620/33000000 = .00004127

So in 2020 .004% of the population in the US was murdered by a person with a gun

So in 2020 you had a 99.9996% chance of NOT being murdered by a person with a gun.

This is 5th grade math and you can't figure it out?

But why do you have to separate people into groups?

Do you not care is criminals get murdered by people using a gun?


The fact is we know where the most murders take place.  Just a handful of hyper-violent inner city areas account for the vast majority of murders in this country.  These areas are very well defined and everyone who lives in these cities knows where these neighborhoods are.

You idiots seem to think that the murder rate in this country is evenly distributed across the entire population but the truth is that is isn't





__





						The Shooting Disease: Who You Know, Where You Live   | Institution for Social and Policy Studies
					






					isps.yale.edu


----------



## Dagosa (Jan 14, 2022)

Otis Mayfield said:


> Good to see New Orleans drop on the list.
> 
> Wichita? Why Wichita?


Why not ?


----------



## Otis Mayfield (Jan 14, 2022)

Dagosa said:


> Why not ?



It's Kansas. It's in the middle of nowhere. 

Are people just deciding to have spontaneous mass shoot outs in Wichita?

Kind of like a dance mob, only with guns?


----------



## watchingfromafar (Jan 17, 2022)

*Gun control is nothing new. *Way back in the day of the cowboy’s gun control was tougher than it is today

The *Second Amendment* (*Amendment II*) to the United States Constitution protects the right of the people to keep and bear arms and was adopted on December 15, 1791 as part of the Bill of Rights.

In the 2008 _Heller_ decision, the Supreme Court affirmed for the first time that the right belongs to individuals, *exclusively for self-defense in the home*, while also including, as _dicta,_ that the right is not unlimited and does not preclude the existence of certain long-standing prohibitions such as those *forbidding "the possession of firearms by felons and the mentally ill"* or restrictions on "the carrying of dangerous and unusual weapons. State and local governments are limited to the same extent as the federal government from infringing this right.

*Gun Control Is as Old as the Wild Old West*
Dodge City in 1878 (Wikimedia Commons)
Contrary to the popular imagination, bearing arms on the frontier was a heavily regulated business
image: https://thumbs-prod.si-cdn.com/7hLl651L ... 835852.jpg

The “Old West” conjures up all sorts of imagery, but broadly, the term is used to evoke life among the crusty prospectors, threadbare gold panners, madams of brothels, and six-shooter-packing cowboys in small frontier towns – such as Tombstone, Deadwood, Dodge City, or Abilene, to name a few. One other thing these cities had in common: strict gun control laws.

*Laws regulating ownership and carry of firearms*, apart from the U.S. Constitution's Second Amendment, were *passed at a local level rather than by Congress*. “Gun control laws were adopted pretty quickly in these places,” says Winkler*. “Most were adopted by municipal governments exercising self-control and self-determination.”

Carrying any kind of weapon, guns, or knives, was not allowed other than outside town borders and inside the home. When visitors left their weapons with a law officer upon entering town, they'd receive a token, like a coat check, which they'd exchange for their guns when leaving town.*

The practice was started in Southern states, which *were among the first to enact laws against concealed carry of guns and knives, in the early 1800s. --* The Battle Over the Right to Bear Arms in America, points to an 1840 Alabama court that, in upholding its state ban, ruled it was a state's right to regulate where and how a citizen could carry, and that the state constitution's allowance of personal firearms *“is not to bear arms upon all occasions and in all places.”

Contrary to the popular imagination, bearing arms on the frontier was a heavily regulated business*

Dodge City in 1878 (Wikimedia Commons)
Looking east on Dodge City’s Front Street, 1878.
Dodge City, 1878
The sign warns visitors to check their guns.
 Buffalo Hide Yard in Dodge City, Kansas 1878
Dodge City Kansas 1874, courtesy Ford County Historical Society

It's *October 26, 1881*, in Tombstone, and Arizona
The laws of Tombstone at the time required visitors, *upon entering town to disarm, either at a hotel or a lawman's office. *(Residents of many famed cattle towns, such as Dodge City, Abilene, and Deadwood, had similar restrictions.)
image: https://public-media.si-cdn.com/fil...d ... lanton.jpg

*"Tombstone had much more restrictive laws on carrying guns in public in the 1880s than it has today,” *Same goes for most of the New West, to varying degrees, in the once-rowdy frontier towns of Nevada, Kansas, Montana, and South Dakota.

*Dodge City, Kansas, formed a municipal government in 1878*. According to Stephen Aron, a professor of history at UCLA, the *first law passed was one prohibiting the carry of guns in town*, likely by civic leaders and influential merchants who wanted people to move there, *Cultivating a reputation of peace and stability was necessary*, even in boisterous towns, if it were to become anything more transient than a one-industry boom town.

*Laws regulating ownership and carry of firearms*, apart from the U.S. Constitution's Second Amendment, were passed at a local level rather than by Congress. “*Gun control laws were adopted pretty quickly in these places*,” says Winkler. “Most were adopted by municipal governments exercising self-control and self-determination.” *Carrying any kind of weapon, guns or knives, was not *allowed other than outside town borders and inside the home. *When visitors left their weapons with a law officer upon entering town, they'd receive a token, like a coat check, which they'd exchange for their guns when leaving town.

Louisiana, too, upheld an early ban on concealed carry firearms*. When a Kentucky court reversed its ban, the state constitution was amended to specify the *Kentucky general assembly was within its rights to, in the future, regulate or prohibit concealed carry*.

Still, Winkler says, it was an affirmation that regulation was compatible with the Second Amendment. The federal government of the 1800s largely stayed out of gun-law court battles.

*“People were allowed to own guns, and everyone did own guns [in the West*], for the most part,” says Winkler.

“Having a firearm to protect yourself in the lawless wilderness from wild animals, hostile native tribes, and outlaws was a wise idea. *But when you came into town, you had to either check your guns if you were a visitor or keep your guns at home if you were a resident.”*
Gun Control Is as Old as the Old West

*Did the Wild West Have More Gun Control Than We Do Today?

The answer is YES. When you entered a frontier town, you were legally required to leave your guns at the stables on the outskirts of town or drop them off with the sheriff*, who would give you a token in exchange. You checked your guns then like you’d check your overcoat today at a Boston restaurant in winter. Visitors were welcome, but their guns were not.
While people were allowed to have guns at home for self-protection, frontier towns usually *barred anyone but law enforcement from carrying guns in public.*

When Dodge City residents organized their municipal government, do you know what the very first law they passed was? *A gun control law*. —also *barred the carrying of guns openly*.

Like any law regulating things that are small and easy to conceal, the gun control of the Wild West wasn’t always perfectly enforced. But statistics show that, next to drunk and disorderly conduct, *the most common cause of arrest was illegally carrying a firearm. Sheriffs and marshals took gun control seriously.*
Did the Wild West Have More Gun Control Than We Do Today?

*Illinois town bans assault weapons, will fine those who keep them*
The town of Deerfield, Ill., has moved to *ban assault weapons, including the AR-15* used in the school shooting in Parkland, Florida, claiming the measure will make the town more safe from mass shootings.

*The ordinance was passed unanimously* Monday by the Deerfield Village Board. It states the move is in the best interest of public health and will spur a culture change toward *"the normative value that assault weapons should have no role or purpose in civil society."*

It also takes a swing at a popular reading of the Second Amendment, stating the weapons are *"not reasonably necessary to protect an individual's right of self-defense" *or to preserve a well-regulated militia.
*Illinois town bans assault weapons, will fine those who keep them

Chicago suburb bans assault weapons in response to Parkland shooting*

With the future of federal gun control legislation uncertain, an affluent Chicago suburb this week took the aggressive step of *banning assault weapons within its borders*, in what local officials said was a direct response to the mass shooting at a Parkland, Fla., high school earlier this year.

*Officials in Deerfield, Ill., unanimously approved the ordinance, which prohibits the possession, manufacture or sale of a range of firearms, as well as large-capacity magazines. *Residents of the 19,000-person village have until June 13 to remove the guns from village limits or face up to $1,000 per day in fines.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...h ... db16134355

*Seattle will require gun owners to lock up their firearms*, after the City Council voted unanimously Monday to pass legislation proposed by Mayor Jenny Durkan.
Starting 180 days after Durkan signs the legislation, it will be *a civil infraction to store a gun without the firearm being secured in a locked container.*
The legislation will apply only to guns kept somewhere, rather than those carried by or under the control of their owners.
Also under the legislation, *it will be a civil infraction when an owner knows or should know that a minor, “at-risk person” or unauthorized user is likely to access a gun and such a person actually does access the weapon.
*
*The legislation allows fines up to $500 when a gun isn’t locked up,
up to $1,000 when a prohibited person accesses a firearm
and up to $10,000 when a prohibited person uses the weapon to hurt someone or commit a crime.
Gun owners face fines up to $10,000 for not locking up their guns under new Seattle law
What has changed from then to now??*​











-


----------



## Dagosa (Jan 17, 2022)

Otis Mayfield said:


> It's Kansas. It's in the middle of nowhere.
> 
> Are people just deciding to have spontaneous mass shoot outs in Wichita?
> 
> Kind of like a dance mob, only with guns?


No answer I see. “It’s Kansas” is not an answer.


----------



## 2aguy (Jan 18, 2022)

watchingfromafar said:


> *Gun control is nothing new. *Way back in the day of the cowboy’s gun control was tougher than it is today
> 
> The *Second Amendment* (*Amendment II*) to the United States Constitution protects the right of the people to keep and bear arms and was adopted on December 15, 1791 as part of the Bill of Rights.
> 
> ...




Yeah...not so much...Heller wasn't the first time......and banning concealed carry only happened because everyone carried guns openly.......the thinking at the time was only a criminal would conceal a gun......

Most of the gun control laws in the Old West, if they existed at all, had nothing to do with confiscation or restrictions on gun type. They had more to do with gun use by restricting and prohibiting firing pistols in city streets. And, while few opponents of gun control today would object to limitations on discharging firearms in a busy intersection, gun control laws of this extent were largely unheard of in most American cities. In fact, they were even unusual in the Old West, and using the gun control ordinance from Tombstone as an example, they were proven ineffective.
-----

There were other frontier towns with gun control restrictions similar to Tombstone. Most made it unlawful to carry in the hand or upon the person any deadly weapon _within the limits of said city_, without first obtaining a permit in writing.* 

But, in those towns, as in Tombstone, in the closest equivalents to a “gun-free zone” in the 19th century, such gun control measures did little to stem gun violence, and likely provoked the infamous kerfuffle at the O.K. Corral.*
----
Lots of guns, not a lot of crime​Mass violence, like what took place at the O.K. Corral, was actually infrequent. Moreover, the Old West reputation for lawlessness is unwarranted, despite, at times, an elevated number of homicides.

Crime such as rape and robberies occurred at a much lower rate than in modern America — certainly lower than in the 1970s and 1980s, when the nation was wracked by a surge in criminality. It is also worth noting that crime and gun violence has fallen steeply since the 1990s, even as gun ownership has increased dramatically.



Keep in mind.......one Earp was murdered, the other maimed, the criminals in Tombstone routinely ignored the gun laws in the town, as did Doc Holiday who on a daily basis walked around armed....


----------



## 2aguy (Jan 18, 2022)

watchingfromafar said:


> *Gun control is nothing new. *Way back in the day of the cowboy’s gun control was tougher than it is today
> 
> The *Second Amendment* (*Amendment II*) to the United States Constitution protects the right of the people to keep and bear arms and was adopted on December 15, 1791 as part of the Bill of Rights.
> 
> ...




Mandatory storage laws were deemed unConstitutional in Heller.....since mandatory gun locks were declared unConstitutional in that ruling....


----------

