# Questions about power out in one room-Electrician Help?!?!



## random3434

My daughter's bedroom has no power, the rest of the condo does. I switched the circut breaker on and off, nothing happened. (That usually restarted it before)

Is there something else I can do before I have to "call someone" for professional help? 

Thanks!


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## Intense

Echo Zulu said:


> My daughter's bedroom has no power, the rest of the condo does. I switched the circut breaker on and off, nothing happened. (That usually restarted it before)
> 
> Is there something else I can do before I have to "call someone" for professional help?
> 
> Thanks!



It could be the Breaker itself. It could break in the line. If you have power everywhere else. Try turning the Breaker on and off a couple of times with everything on the line unplugged. If you still have no power, you need an Electrician. If you plug something in and it blows the breaker instantly, what you plugged in is shorted.


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## Intense

Do ever notice voltage drop on that line, like lights dimming? Anything major plugged it there that is high current?


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## Ringel05

Sounds like the breaker went bad.  The breaker for her room is constantly tripping?  If so that's a bad thing, either a short in the system (bad outlet, nail partially through a wire, etc) or you have the circuit overloaded.  Switching out a breaker is fairly easy but unless you're comfortable with it don't try, call a pro.


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## dilloduck

What he said--probably the breaker.


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## Paulie

I wouldn't recommend trying to switch out a breaker on your own if you've never even worked with electrical wiring before.

If you have rudimentary knowledge then it's probably ok.

Just please make sure you cut the main breaker off first!


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## Paulie

EZ, is her room the only zone for the breaker that controls it?

Like, if you turn the breaker off that powers her room, does anything else go off besides her room?


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## Middleman

If you've had the breaker trip before, A) you have too much load on that circuit and you need to have it split up and B) You need to replace the breaker because its probably worn out from tripping.

Replacing a breaker is very easy, they snap out. Just make sure you turn off the power to the house. You'll need a screwdriver to remove the metal facing on the breaker box. You can buy new breakers at an hardware store, just be sure to match the size. Do not go up a size in order to accommodate the load, if anyone tells you to do so, he's giving bad, and unsafe, advise.


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## Middleman

Here are some videos on how to do this...

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XmWhDaF1cPU"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XmWhDaF1cPU[/ame]

How to Replace a Circuit Breaker Video ? 5min.com


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## random3434

Paulie said:


> EZ, is her room the only zone for the breaker that controls it?
> 
> Like, if you turn the breaker off that powers her room, does anything else go off besides her room?



Yes, it's the breaker for her room, there is a breaker for each section of the condo.

I guess I'm going to have to call someone, I'm scared to fix it by myself.


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## Middleman

Echo Zulu said:


> Paulie said:
> 
> 
> 
> EZ, is her room the only zone for the breaker that controls it?
> 
> Like, if you turn the breaker off that powers her room, does anything else go off besides her room?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, it's the breaker for her room, there is a breaker for each section of the condo.
> 
> I guess I'm going to have to call someone, I'm scared to fix it by myself.
Click to expand...


Darn it! That'll cost money. If you lived near by I'd fix it for you. 

You know it's the circuit breaker if, when you go to turn it back on, that it doesn't snap into place like it used to. It'll feel different. But, there's a reason why the circuit is tripping. Is your daughter using a space heater and, say, a hair dryer at the same time?


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## strollingbones

did you check to see if you have a ground breaker in the electric switches?  normally they are in bathrooms....

you dont need to pay to have this done.....find some dude who will do it for a free dinner...simple as that...ask around work...


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## strollingbones

you can fix this yourself....as paulie said...turn off the main breaker....all you have to do is take out the breaker and replace it....wires are color coded...wire nuts and electrical tape should do it all...


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## strollingbones

How to Replace a Circuit Breaker Video ? 5min.com


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## Middleman

strollingbones said:


> you can fix this yourself....as paulie said...turn off the main breaker....all you have to do is take out the breaker and replace it....wires are color coded...wire nuts and electrical tape should do it all...



Breakers just snap out, no wiring ability required. Replacing a breaker is much easier than replacing a plug, and replacing a plug is easy.


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## del

Echo Zulu said:


> Paulie said:
> 
> 
> 
> EZ, is her room the only zone for the breaker that controls it?
> 
> Like, if you turn the breaker off that powers her room, does anything else go off besides her room?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, it's the breaker for her room, there is a breaker for each section of the condo.
> 
> I guess I'm going to have to call someone, I'm scared to fix it by myself.
Click to expand...


if the breaker immediately trips when you try to reset it, something is shorting out. check to make sure nothing is plugged in to any of the outlets and then try to reset it. if it still won't reset, the breaker's gone to breaker heaven. breakers don't often go bad, especially in a residential application.


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## Paulie

As easy as it is, I can understand why someone would be scared to do it themselves.

As long as that main if off, there's no way you can get zapped.  But that sometimes isn't enough peace of mind for someone who's never worked with electrical circuits before.

If I was there, I'd do it for the dinner.

And a movie


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## Ravi

Echo Zulu said:


> My daughter's bedroom has no power, the rest of the condo does. I switched the circut breaker on and off, nothing happened. (That usually restarted it before)
> 
> *Is there something else I can do before I have to "call someone" for professional help?*
> 
> Thanks!


Why do you hate electricians?


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## Paulie

Ravi said:


> Echo Zulu said:
> 
> 
> 
> My daughter's bedroom has no power, the rest of the condo does. I switched the circut breaker on and off, nothing happened. (That usually restarted it before)
> 
> *Is there something else I can do before I have to "call someone" for professional help?*
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> 
> 
> Why do you hate electricians?
Click to expand...


Why do you hate people who don't want to pay an exorbitant cost to an electrician?


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## Intense

EZ. How old is the Wiring? How old is the Condo? Are your outlets (Receptacles) 2 prong or 3 prong? If the place is old, have an electrician check it out. A short in the line can cause fire. You said Condo. Don't they have maintenance crews? Talk to the management office.


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## Ravi

Paulie said:


> Ravi said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Echo Zulu said:
> 
> 
> 
> My daughter's bedroom has no power, the rest of the condo does. I switched the circut breaker on and off, nothing happened. (That usually restarted it before)
> 
> *Is there something else I can do before I have to "call someone" for professional help?*
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> 
> 
> Why do you hate electricians?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Why do you hate people who don't want to pay an exorbitant cost to an electrician?
Click to expand...

Vietnam, of course.


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## Paulie

Ravi said:


> Paulie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ravi said:
> 
> 
> 
> Why do you hate electricians?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Why do you hate people who don't want to pay an exorbitant cost to an electrician?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Vietnam, of course.
Click to expand...


Why do you hate Vietnam?


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## Ringel05

If you're not to skittish Paulie could walk you through the breaker replacement, it really isn't that hard.  It's bed time for me, good luck and good night.


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## Ravi

Paulie said:


> Ravi said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Paulie said:
> 
> 
> 
> Why do you hate people who don't want to pay an exorbitant cost to an electrician?
> 
> 
> 
> Vietnam, of course.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Why do you hate Vietnam?
Click to expand...

It killed all the electricians. Damn, Paulie, are you this dense in real life?


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## Paulie

Ravi said:


> Paulie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ravi said:
> 
> 
> 
> Vietnam, of course.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Why do you hate Vietnam?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> It killed all the electricians. Damn, Paulie, are you this dense in real life?
Click to expand...


Yes.

Why do you hate that?


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## Intense

Guy's, if she lives in a Condo, she doesn't own it, it is not her property. She should call maintenance. Avoid the liability.


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## Paulie

Intense said:


> Guy's, if she lives in a Condo, she doesn't own it, it is not her property. She should call maintenance. Avoid the liability.



This isn't true.

You can own a condo unit, and be responsible for all your repairs inside your actual unit.

The only thing the association is responsible for is the building's exterior and the grounds.  And usually you pay a recurring fee to cover that.


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## Midnight Marauder

Replacing the breaker is one thing, determining why the old one was tripping all the time and failed is another. A tripping breaker is a cry for HELP from the circuit. Something is wrong.

The polarity of all outlets and lighting in the affected zone must be checked. Continuity of all connections must be checked. Resistance to ground from the "hot" side must be checked.

If polarity has been incorrect in just one outlet or socket, it's possible you have had current flowing through the "common" link in this circuit. If so, it's also possible one of the connections in this circuit that has been heating, finally burned through. If so, you will still not have a functioning circuit even after changing the breaker.

After changing the breaker and restoring the circuit, a check of the full load amp draw on this circuit must be performed. The load shouldn't ever approach the rating of the breaker.

He will also as a matter of course, tighten all connections in the  breaker box and check them as well for resistance to ground, amp draw,  and signs of heating. He will also tighten all "common" connections in  the box. Loose connections are a bad thing.

You really do want to have a qualified electrician check this, his fee is well worth having this problem solved correctly. I have listed the first things he will do. He might charge what? $50 an hour? Small price to pay to have this properly fixed.


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## Intense

Paulie said:


> Intense said:
> 
> 
> 
> Guy's, if she lives in a Condo, she doesn't own it, it is not her property. She should call maintenance. Avoid the liability.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This isn't true.
> 
> You can own a condo unit, and be responsible for all your repairs inside your actual unit.
> 
> The only thing the association is responsible for is the building's exterior and the grounds.  And usually you pay a recurring fee to cover that.
Click to expand...


That can be true, granted. Still, there is liability. Many condo's still cover certain kinds of repairs, Gas lines, plumbing, Electric, Roofing leaks, etc.


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## Paulie

Intense said:


> Paulie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Intense said:
> 
> 
> 
> Guy's, if she lives in a Condo, she doesn't own it, it is not her property. She should call maintenance. Avoid the liability.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This isn't true.
> 
> You can own a condo unit, and be responsible for all your repairs inside your actual unit.
> 
> The only thing the association is responsible for is the building's exterior and the grounds.  And usually you pay a recurring fee to cover that.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> That can be true, granted. Still, there is liability. Many condo's still cover certain kinds of repairs, Gas lines, plumbing, Electric, Roofing leaks, etc.
Click to expand...


I wouldn't see electric being covered, simply because each condo unit is its own zone, independent of each other.

I could maybe see plumbing, as far as any _main_ drain and supply lines are concerned, because they may be shared amongst several units in the building.  But if your shut off valve for your kitchen sink line, for instance, springs a leak, I don't see how that's the association's problem if you own the unit.


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## Intense

Paulie said:


> Intense said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Paulie said:
> 
> 
> 
> This isn't true.
> 
> You can own a condo unit, and be responsible for all your repairs inside your actual unit.
> 
> The only thing the association is responsible for is the building's exterior and the grounds.  And usually you pay a recurring fee to cover that.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That can be true, granted. Still, there is liability. Many condo's still cover certain kinds of repairs, Gas lines, plumbing, Electric, Roofing leaks, etc.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I wouldn't see electric being covered, simply because each condo unit is its own zone, independent of each other.
> 
> I could maybe see plumbing, as far as any _main_ drain and supply lines are concerned, because they may be shared amongst several units in the building.  But if your shut off valve for your kitchen sink line, for instance, springs a leak, I don't see how that's the association's problem if you own the unit.
Click to expand...


Still Liability. Others are put at risk. Changing a breaker properly is one issue. Failing to check the integrity of the line is another. Negligence is liable. How old is the wiring? Is there even a Ground. Is it properly Polarized? Is there a leak to Ground, a floating Neutral?


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## Midnight Marauder

Intense said:


> Paulie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Intense said:
> 
> 
> 
> That can be true, granted. Still, there is liability. Many condo's still cover certain kinds of repairs, Gas lines, plumbing, Electric, Roofing leaks, etc.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I wouldn't see electric being covered, simply because each condo unit is its own zone, independent of each other.
> 
> I could maybe see plumbing, as far as any _main_ drain and supply lines are concerned, because they may be shared amongst several units in the building.  But if your shut off valve for your kitchen sink line, for instance, springs a leak, I don't see how that's the association's problem if you own the unit.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Still Liability. Others are put at risk. Changing a breaker properly is one issue. Failing to check the integrity of the line is another. Negligence is liable.
Click to expand...

Another reason EZ needs to call a licensed and qualified and BONDED electrician.


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## uscitizen

Middleman said:


> If you've had the breaker trip before, A) you have too much load on that circuit and you need to have it split up and B) You need to replace the breaker because its probably worn out from tripping.
> 
> Replacing a breaker is very easy, they snap out. Just make sure you turn off the power to the house. You'll need a screwdriver to remove the metal facing on the breaker box. You can buy new breakers at an hardware store, just be sure to match the size. Do not go up a size in order to accommodate the load, if anyone tells you to do so, he's giving bad, and unsafe, advise.





NOTE!  if the main breaker is in the breaker panel that your breaker is in that turning off the main still leaves HOT/live electricity exposed in that panel even with the main breaker off.   Just where the service entrance wires are connected ot the main breaker but hot nonethe less.

btw EZ a good way to get her to turn down the music


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## dilloduck

Just move to another condo, EZ. Don't take chances.


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## random3434

See, THIS is one reason I love the USMB so much.

Thanks y'all.....great advice from each and every one of ya! 



I called my 'handi-man'....I'm also going to have him fix my garbage disposal that's broken too!


I do like Dillo's idea, JUST MOVE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Ravi

Echo Zulu said:


> See, THIS is one reason I love the USMB so much.
> 
> Thanks y'all.....great advice from each and every one of ya!
> 
> 
> 
> I called my 'handi-man'....I'm also going to have him fix my garbage disposal that's broken too!
> 
> 
> I do like Dillo's idea, JUST MOVE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


No offense, but a handy-man is better than a handi-man any day of the week.


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## 007

Paulie said:


> As long as that main if off, there's no way you can get zapped.  But that sometimes isn't enough peace of mind for someone who's never worked with electrical circuits before.


Well I got in here a little on the late side, but better late than never. As I've mentioned before on here, I have a degree in Electrical Engineering, and have worked for an Electrician on and off for about a dozen years, including work of my own in the Air Force, maintenance and assorted other jobs that included electrical. I have a good educational as well as experience back ground in this area. With that said, YES YOU CAN GET SHOCKED in a box even if the main circuit breaker is off. The large diameter wires coming INTO the box, at the top, by the main breaker are ALWAYS HOT! The only way to kill that power is to remove the meter from the outside power. DO NOT stick your fingers in a breaker box even if the main is shut off. YOU CAN be ELECTROCUTED!




Midnight Marauder said:


> Replacing the breaker is one thing, determining why the old one was tripping all the time and failed is another. A tripping breaker is a cry for HELP from the circuit. Something is wrong.


That's true, but, breakers can also just get weak with age.




Midnight Marauder said:


> The polarity of all outlets and lighting in the affected zone must be checked. Continuity of all connections must be checked. Resistance to ground from the "hot" side must be checked.
> 
> If polarity has been incorrect in just one outlet or socket, it's possible you have had current flowing through the "common" link in this circuit. If so, it's also possible one of the connections in this circuit that has been heating, finally burned through. If so, you will still not have a functioning circuit even after changing the breaker.


This is all wrong. Sorry MM... but A/C, otherwise known as Alternating Current, has NO POLARITY. In fact, most A/C in homes in America is "single phase, 120 VAC, 60 Hz. 60 Hz means that 60 times per second the polarity of the electricity changes and flows in the opposite direction. There is just as much current flowing through the common as there is the hot. There would be no flow of current at all if there wasn't a common. The type of electricity that that doesn't change polarity is D/C, which is Direct Current. That has a definite polarity of + and - that doesn't change.




Midnight Marauder said:


> You really do want to have a qualified electrician check this, his fee is well worth having this problem solved correctly. I have listed the first things he will do. He might charge what? $50 an hour? Small price to pay to have this properly fixed.


True. The breaker was tripping for a reason. Either there are too many things plugged into that one circuit, or there was a problem with the breaker, or something was shorting it out. No matter what the problem is, you should have a certified electrician check it out. A situation as you've described could be dangerous. You could burn the whole building down.


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## Paulie

Pale, I meant when switching the actual breaker out.

I don't know why EZ would be sticking her fingers up where the wires are coming in anyway.

It doesn't take an engineering degree to know that the box itself is still being fed with juice from the main supply.


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## Ringel05

Echo Zulu said:


> See, THIS is one reason I love the USMB so much.
> 
> Thanks y'all.....great advice from each and every one of ya!
> 
> 
> 
> I called my 'handi-man'....I'm also going to have him fix my garbage disposal that's broken too!
> 
> 
> I do like Dillo's idea, JUST MOVE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



Garbage disposal broken?  Look on the bottom of the garbage disposal, find a little red or black button and push it.  If that doesn't work take two aspirin and call me in the morning.


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## Midnight Marauder

Pale Rider said:


> Midnight Marauder said:
> 
> 
> 
> The polarity of all outlets and lighting in the affected zone must be checked. Continuity of all connections must be checked. Resistance to ground from the "hot" side must be checked.
> 
> If polarity has been incorrect in just one outlet or socket, it's possible you have had current flowing through the "common" link in this circuit. If so, it's also possible one of the connections in this circuit that has been heating, finally burned through. If so, you will still not have a functioning circuit even after changing the breaker.
> 
> 
> 
> This is all wrong. Sorry MM... but A/C, otherwise known as Alternating Current, has NO POLARITY. In fact, most A/C in homes in America is "single phase, 120 VAC, 60 Hz. 60 Hz means that 60 times per second the polarity of the electricity changes and flows in the opposite direction. There is just as much current flowing through the common as there is the hot. There would be no flow of current at all if there wasn't a common. The type of electricity that that doesn't change polarity is D/C, which is Direct Current. That has a definite polarity of + and - that doesn't change.
Click to expand...

Actually, polarity is quite important in a AC circuit. The black wire is the load side, and if receptacles are wired wrong, it causes problems especially if they have a high-draw resistive load plugged in, such as a space heater. Otherwise you are correct, without the "common" nothing at all will work, which is what I said -- if the "common" is disconnected anywhere, perhaps due to a burned through or loose connection, nothing will happen as far as getting useable power.

"Polarity" is probably the wrong term for what I am describing. Incorrect circuit wiring is the right one, and it's all too common to find in residential wiring, unfortunately.

I made my millions and retired as a ET and EET, I'm well aware of the properties of AC and DC.


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## Intense

Ringel05 said:


> Echo Zulu said:
> 
> 
> 
> See, THIS is one reason I love the USMB so much.
> 
> Thanks y'all.....great advice from each and every one of ya!
> 
> 
> 
> I called my 'handi-man'....I'm also going to have him fix my garbage disposal that's broken too!
> 
> 
> I do like Dillo's idea, JUST MOVE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Garbage disposal broken?  Look on the bottom of the garbage disposal, find a little red or black button and push it.  If that doesn't work take two aspirin and call me in the morning.
Click to expand...


Good Idea. If it Leaks from the body trash it. If it's jammed, ......

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kzTPox1kARo[/ame]


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## Ringel05

Intense said:


> Ringel05 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Echo Zulu said:
> 
> 
> 
> See, THIS is one reason I love the USMB so much.
> 
> Thanks y'all.....great advice from each and every one of ya!
> 
> 
> 
> I called my 'handi-man'....I'm also going to have him fix my garbage disposal that's broken too!
> 
> 
> I do like Dillo's idea, JUST MOVE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Garbage disposal broken?  Look on the bottom of the garbage disposal, find a little red or black button and push it.  If that doesn't work take two aspirin and call me in the morning.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Good Idea. If it Leaks from the body trash it. If it's jammed, ......
> 
> [ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kzTPox1kARo[/ame]
Click to expand...



I just use a crowbar to unjam it, old handy-man trick, works every time.


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## Intense

Ringel05 said:


> Intense said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ringel05 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Garbage disposal broken?  Look on the bottom of the garbage disposal, find a little red or black button and push it.  If that doesn't work take two aspirin and call me in the morning.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Good Idea. If it Leaks from the body trash it. If it's jammed, ......
> 
> [ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kzTPox1kARo[/ame]
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> I just use a crowbar to unjam it, old handy-man trick, works every time.
Click to expand...


I have a modified Whirlpool washer transmission shaft, hard like Samurai Steel. The best course of course is to not drop stuff down there.... just saying.


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## Ringel05

Intense said:


> Ringel05 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Intense said:
> 
> 
> 
> Good Idea. If it Leaks from the body trash it. If it's jammed, ......
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kzTPox1kARo
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I just use a crowbar to unjam it, old handy-man trick, works every time.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I have a *modified Whirlpool washer transmission shaft*, hard like Samurai Steel. The best course of course is to not drop stuff down there.... just saying.
Click to expand...


Ummmmm......  disposing of body parts?


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## 007

Paulie said:


> Pale, I meant when switching the actual breaker out.
> 
> I don't know why EZ would be sticking her fingers up where the wires are coming in anyway.
> 
> It doesn't take an engineering degree to know that the box itself is still being fed with juice from the main supply.



You can't change out the breaker unless you take the panel front off, and if you take the panel front off, you expose the lead ins that are always hot. Now I'm guessing 95% of the public has no idea what anything is in that box. They have no comprehension of what electricity even is, let alone knowing what and where they can stick their fingers in that box. It's dangerous for trained people to do. It's just my opinion that if you have no idea what's going on in that box, call an electrician, otherwise you're just flirting with disaster. It takes a quarter of an amp to kill someone, and there's a hell of a lot more than that inside a breaker panel... all the time... unless the meter has been removed from the meter head outside.


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## 007

Midnight Marauder said:


> Pale Rider said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Midnight Marauder said:
> 
> 
> 
> The polarity of all outlets and lighting in the affected zone must be checked. Continuity of all connections must be checked. Resistance to ground from the "hot" side must be checked.
> 
> If polarity has been incorrect in just one outlet or socket, it's possible you have had current flowing through the "common" link in this circuit. If so, it's also possible one of the connections in this circuit that has been heating, finally burned through. If so, you will still not have a functioning circuit even after changing the breaker.
> 
> 
> 
> This is all wrong. Sorry MM... but A/C, otherwise known as Alternating Current, has NO POLARITY. In fact, most A/C in homes in America is "single phase, 120 VAC, 60 Hz. 60 Hz means that 60 times per second the polarity of the electricity changes and flows in the opposite direction. There is just as much current flowing through the common as there is the hot. There would be no flow of current at all if there wasn't a common. The type of electricity that that doesn't change polarity is D/C, which is Direct Current. That has a definite polarity of + and - that doesn't change.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Actually, polarity is quite important in a AC circuit. The black wire is the load side, and if receptacles are wired wrong, it causes problems especially if they have a high-draw resistive load plugged in, such as a space heater. Otherwise you are correct, without the "common" nothing at all will work, which is what I said -- if the "common" is disconnected anywhere, perhaps due to a burned through or loose connection, nothing will happen as far as getting useable power.
> 
> "Polarity" is probably the wrong term for what I am describing. Incorrect circuit wiring is the right one, and it's all too common to find in residential wiring, unfortunately.
> 
> I made my millions and retired as a ET and EET, I'm well aware of the properties of AC and DC.
Click to expand...


Actually, no, it's not. The "polarity" of A/C changes and it flows in the opposite direction 60 times a second. Polarity makes no difference at all. What I think you're getting at is there's a hot and a common, and with all new wiring, there's also now a ground. Yes it is important how you hook those up.


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## Midnight Marauder

Pale Rider said:


> Midnight Marauder said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pale Rider said:
> 
> 
> 
> This is all wrong. Sorry MM... but A/C, otherwise known as Alternating Current, has NO POLARITY. In fact, most A/C in homes in America is "single phase, 120 VAC, 60 Hz. 60 Hz means that 60 times per second the polarity of the electricity changes and flows in the opposite direction. There is just as much current flowing through the common as there is the hot. There would be no flow of current at all if there wasn't a common. The type of electricity that that doesn't change polarity is D/C, which is Direct Current. That has a definite polarity of + and - that doesn't change.
> 
> 
> 
> Actually, polarity is quite important in a AC circuit. The black wire is the load side, and if receptacles are wired wrong, it causes problems especially if they have a high-draw resistive load plugged in, such as a space heater. Otherwise you are correct, without the "common" nothing at all will work, which is what I said -- if the "common" is disconnected anywhere, perhaps due to a burned through or loose connection, nothing will happen as far as getting useable power.
> 
> "Polarity" is probably the wrong term for what I am describing. Incorrect circuit wiring is the right one, and it's all too common to find in residential wiring, unfortunately.
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...




Pale Rider said:


> Midnight Marauder said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I made my millions and retired as a ET and EET, I'm well aware of the properties of AC and DC.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Actually, no, it's not. The "polarity" of A/C changes and it flows in the opposite direction 60 times a second. Polarity makes no difference at all. What I think you're getting at is there's a hot and a common, and with all new wiring, there's also now a ground. Yes it is important how you hook those up.
Click to expand...

I suppose this is why they call them "polarized" plugs and sockets. They didn't used to be called that, we didn't use to have these at all, and electrical fires and shocks were much more common as a result. You might recognize these, one blade of the plug is "fatter" than the other. That is called a polarized plug. It is designed to make sure the "hot" side coming out of the socket matches the "hot" side of the circuit, in the device you're plugging in. It is to make sure polarity of the wiring stays correct.

When this is checked, it's with a device called a "polarity checker" which you plug in, it has three status lights telling you if this outlet is wired correctly.

The "hot" side is also referred to as the "load" side and it is indeed 60 cycle AC. The polarity of the _wiring_ is what I am referring to, and this must be correct for residential circuits to work right. One of the symptoms of it not being correct is a breaker tripping all the time for no apparent reason, as EZ describes in the OP -- or, not tripping when it's supposed to.

What you said earlier about there being "just as much" current traveling through the common as in the "hot" is false, otherwise we would be using breakers on the common side of the circuit. We don't do that. We use circuit breakers on the "hot" line only, for a reason. Because that's where the load is supposed to be. On a 220 volt circuit however, both wires have potential, there is no "common" and we DO use two breakers on this circuit. 220 volt control circuits used to be quite common in industrial machine applications, until folks realized 24 VAC was much safer for controls.

Next time you're working on a 120vac residential circuit, pull out your amprobe and check the loaded amps (something plugged in, work being done) on the "hot" wire, then on the "common." You'll see quite a drastic difference in current if the outlet is wired correctly. (Hint: It won't be 'just as much.') And it won't be any at all, if there's no load.


----------



## Midnight Marauder

Pale Rider said:


> That's true, but, breakers can also just get weak with age.


Age in years has little to do with breaker performance. MILEAGE as in, number of trip cycles, does have.

There's expiration dates on circuit breakers? No. Does the IEEE recommend changing breakers out after they have been in service a certain amount of time? No.


----------



## Intense

Anything Computerized needs to be Polarized and grounded.  Polarity is important because of shock hazard. If you get shocks from an appliance, say when you touch it and the sink at the same time, turn the plug upside down, and the hazard disappears. The Skinny Terminal is hot or L1, The fat terminal is Neutral. If you look at an appliance cord you may see one side ribbed or with lettering on it, that is the neutral line or side. 208-220 VAC depends on the type of service in your areas, either way you are looking at L1 and L2 which have different phases 180 degrees apart. On electric cook tops for example, on the lower voltage, when set on hight, the orange glow is weak, 220 has a stronger glow. Those circuits have a neutral and a ground. Some 220 VAC appliances will run motors, timers on L1 (115VAC) and the heater 220VAc, L1 to L2.


----------



## 007

Midnight Marauder said:


> What you said earlier about there being "just as much" current traveling through the common as in the "hot" is false,...



No, it's not. Without a common there wouldn't be any path for current. The common carries exactly the same amount of current that the hot wire does, back and forth, A/C. I've worked with 120, 240, 277, (bastard voltage), and 440 VAC, single and three phase. I've wired everything from transformers with 440 three phase in them down to household wiring, not to mention Avionics on 26 million dollar fighter air craft, which ran on a very unconventional 400 VDC. That is polarized. It has a + and - and it doesn't change/alternate direction. That's all I'll say about that though. That's not the sort of information I'm supposed to give out.

Now here's where I don't think we're on the same page. You are right there is a hot and a common. You are right all new devices should be hooked up to their respective hot and common terminals. There is also a ground wire in all new wiring. That's code. But if you were to pull a receptacle out while say a lamp was plugged into it while the lamp was turned on, there would be just as much voltage present on the hot as there would be on the common, to ground. If you shut the lamp off, you'd only see voltage on the hot, to ground, or the common. From the common to ground there would be nothing. The lamp is shut off, there's no path for current. But yes, I am correct in that the common has every bit as much voltage going through it as the hot, when current is present across a load. There is no possible way it can't. This is where I believe you lost me.


----------



## Midnight Marauder

Intense said:


> Anything Computerized needs to be Polarized and grounded.  Polarity is important because of shock hazard. If you get shocks from an appliance, say when you touch it and the sink at the same time, turn the plug upside down, and the hazard disappears. The Skinny Terminal is hot or L1, The fat terminal is Neutral. If you look at an appliance cord you may see one side ribbed or with lettering on it, that is the neutral line or side. 208-220 VAC depends on the type of service in your areas, either way you are looking at L1 and L2 which have different phases 180 degrees apart. On electric cook tops for example, on the lower voltage, when set on hight, the orange glow is weak, 220 has a stronger glow. Those circuits have a neutral and a ground. Some 220 VAC appliances will run motors, timers on L1 (115VAC) and the heater 220VAc, L1 to L2.


In the olden days before circuit breakers became standard and you had fuses only, this polarity really didn't matter much, other than for safety. But circuit breakers will not function properly if the wiring polarity is wrong. It'll either trip alot for no apparent reason, or never trip.

This is one of the things relevant for EZ's problem, and should well be one of the things the electrician will check. Breakers don't trip because they feel like it, or because they are "old," something is wrong.


----------



## Midnight Marauder

Pale Rider said:


> Midnight Marauder said:
> 
> 
> 
> What you said earlier about there being "just as much" current traveling through the common as in the "hot" is false,...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No, it's not. Without a common there wouldn't be any path for current. The common carries exactly the same amount of current that the hot wire does, back and forth, A/C. I've worked with 120, 240, and 440 VAC, single and three phase. I've wired everything from transformers with 440 in them down to household wiring.
> 
> Now here's where I don't think we're on the same page. You are right there is a hot and a common. There is also a ground wire in all new wiring. That's code. If you were to pull a receptacle out while say a lamp was plugged into it while the lamp was turned on, there would be just as much voltage present on the hot as there would be on the common, to ground. If you shut the lamp off, you'd only see voltage on the hot, to ground, or the common. From the common to ground there would be nothing. The lamp is shut off, there's no path for current. But yes, I am correct in that the common has every bit as much voltage going through it as the hot, when current is present across a load. There is no possible way it can't. This is where I believe you lost me.
Click to expand...

The voltage and current present on the common will always be less than what is present on the line side, during load. This is because of ohm's law, what you measure on the common during load conditions is going to vary based on the workload on the circuit, but will always be less. Because it is what's left after the work.

Otherwise, we would be using a breaker for the neutral as well as the line side. We don't, because we know that if the circuit is wired properly, there's no need for it since the voltage and current will be less than the line side. You may never have really measured this, but it's just a fact.

Root Mean Square.


----------



## Intense

Pale Rider said:


> Midnight Marauder said:
> 
> 
> 
> What you said earlier about there being "just as much" current traveling through the common as in the "hot" is false,...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No, it's not. Without a common there wouldn't be any path for current. The common carries exactly the same amount of current that the hot wire does, back and forth, A/C. I've worked with 120, 240, and 440 VAC, single and three phase. I've wired everything from transformers with 440 in them down to household wiring.
> 
> Now here's where I don't think we're on the same page. You are right there is a hot and a common. There is also a ground wire in all new wiring. That's code. If you were to pull a receptacle out while say a lamp was plugged into it while the lamp was turned on, there would be just as much voltage present on the hot as there would be on the common, to ground. If you shut the lamp off, you'd only see voltage on the hot, to ground, or the common. From the common to ground there would be nothing. The lamp is shut off, there's no path for current. But yes, I am correct in that the common has every bit as much voltage going through it as the hot, when current is present across a load. There is no possible way it can't. This is where I believe you lost me.
Click to expand...


If you put an Amprobe on L1 or Neutral, you will get the same reading, if there is current flow and zero if the circuit is open. Agreed. If a line had a break in the neutral line and it was polarized, everything would read hot or live up until the break. Sometimes you see that on appliance cords and you see that one side of the plug is burned up, overheated. There is a sensor that you can get from electrical supply stores for $20 or so that senses the magnetic field around the hot wire, it will light up or beep when it senses voltage. Great for Christmas Tree Lights, it will take you right to the break in the line. It will tell you when outlets are live, switches and thermostats opened or closed.


----------



## Midnight Marauder

Intense said:


> There is a sensor that you can get from electrical supply stores for $20 or so that senses the magnetic field around the hot wire, it will light up or beep when it senses voltage.


Actually this is called a hall effect sensor, and it is sensing the magnetic field of the conductor, which increases on current, not voltage.

Static voltage does not create a magnetic field.


----------



## Midnight Marauder

Intense said:


> If you put an Amprobe on L1 or Neutral, you will get the same reading, if there is current flow


Actually, you won't. Neutral will always be slightly less than L1 during load, and the amount less is determined by the amount of the load.


----------



## Intense

Midnight Marauder said:


> Intense said:
> 
> 
> 
> There is a sensor that you can get from electrical supply stores for $20 or so that senses the magnetic field around the hot wire, it will light up or beep when it senses voltage.
> 
> 
> 
> Actually this is called a hall effect sensor, and it is sensing the magnetic field of the conductor, which increases on current, not voltage.
> 
> Static voltage does not create a magnetic field.
Click to expand...


MM you are thinking PC which is converted to DC. AC fluctuates and registers on the sensor whether the circuit is opened or closed. I work with Multi Meters and Amprobes, and Voltage Sensors every day. I work on AC Power, and low voltage DC.


----------



## 007

Midnight Marauder said:


> Pale Rider said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Midnight Marauder said:
> 
> 
> 
> What you said earlier about there being "just as much" current traveling through the common as in the "hot" is false,...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No, it's not. Without a common there wouldn't be any path for current. The common carries exactly the same amount of current that the hot wire does, back and forth, A/C. I've worked with 120, 240, and 440 VAC, single and three phase. I've wired everything from transformers with 440 in them down to household wiring.
> 
> Now here's where I don't think we're on the same page. You are right there is a hot and a common. There is also a ground wire in all new wiring. That's code. If you were to pull a receptacle out while say a lamp was plugged into it while the lamp was turned on, there would be just as much voltage present on the hot as there would be on the common, to ground. If you shut the lamp off, you'd only see voltage on the hot, to ground, or the common. From the common to ground there would be nothing. The lamp is shut off, there's no path for current. But yes, I am correct in that the common has every bit as much voltage going through it as the hot, when current is present across a load. There is no possible way it can't. This is where I believe you lost me.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The voltage and current present on the common will always be less than what is present on the line side, during load. This is because of ohm's law, what you measure on the common during load conditions is going to vary based on the workload on the circuit, but will always be less. Because it is what's left after the work.
> 
> Otherwise, we would be using a breaker for the neutral as well as the line side. We don't, because we know that if the circuit is wired properly, there's no need for it since the voltage and current will be less than the line side. You may never have really measured this, but it's just a fact.
> 
> Root Mean Square.
Click to expand...


That is absolutely false about household A/C. Try what I said, and you'll see I'm right. I've checked voltages on literally hundreds of circuits in homes with problems. The common, while a circuit is active/closed, has every single bit as much current and voltage as the hot side in the circuit. There is no possible way the hot side could carry more current, and/or voltage in a circuit than the common. It's not even theoretically possible. E = I x R. R = E / I. I = E / R. Ohms Law.


----------



## Midnight Marauder

Intense said:


> Midnight Marauder said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Intense said:
> 
> 
> 
> There is a sensor that you can get from electrical supply stores for $20 or so that senses the magnetic field around the hot wire, it will light up or beep when it senses voltage.
> 
> 
> 
> Actually this is called a hall effect sensor, and it is sensing the magnetic field of the conductor, which increases on current, not voltage.
> 
> Static voltage does not create a magnetic field.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> MM you are thinking PC which is converted to DC. AC fluctuates and registers on the sensor whether the circuit is opened or closed. I work with Multi Meters and Amprobes, and Voltage Sensors every day. I work on AC Power, and low voltage DC.
Click to expand...

I stand corrected. The cycle is detectable, load or not.

+1


----------



## 007

Intense said:


> There is a sensor that you can get from electrical supply stores for $20 or so that senses the magnetic field around the hot wire, it will light up or beep when it senses voltage.



Yes, I have two of them. My older one just lights up. My new one lights up and beeps. There does NOT have to be current present, only voltage. Works on A/C and D/C. Just hold it near the wire. Or if you're standing under a telephone pole with a main line on it, say 2,500 VAC or so, you can be thirty feet away from it and it will go off. Yup, picks up the electromagnetic field.


----------



## Midnight Marauder

Pale Rider said:


> Midnight Marauder said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pale Rider said:
> 
> 
> 
> No, it's not. Without a common there wouldn't be any path for current. The common carries exactly the same amount of current that the hot wire does, back and forth, A/C. I've worked with 120, 240, and 440 VAC, single and three phase. I've wired everything from transformers with 440 in them down to household wiring.
> 
> Now here's where I don't think we're on the same page. You are right there is a hot and a common. There is also a ground wire in all new wiring. That's code. If you were to pull a receptacle out while say a lamp was plugged into it while the lamp was turned on, there would be just as much voltage present on the hot as there would be on the common, to ground. If you shut the lamp off, you'd only see voltage on the hot, to ground, or the common. From the common to ground there would be nothing. The lamp is shut off, there's no path for current. But yes, I am correct in that the common has every bit as much voltage going through it as the hot, when current is present across a load. There is no possible way it can't. This is where I believe you lost me.
> 
> 
> 
> The voltage and current present on the common will always be less than what is present on the line side, during load. This is because of ohm's law, what you measure on the common during load conditions is going to vary based on the workload on the circuit, but will always be less. Because it is what's left after the work.
> 
> Otherwise, we would be using a breaker for the neutral as well as the line side. We don't, because we know that if the circuit is wired properly, there's no need for it since the voltage and current will be less than the line side. You may never have really measured this, but it's just a fact.
> 
> Root Mean Square.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> That is absolutely false about household A/C. Try what I said, and you'll see I'm right. I've checked voltages on literally hundreds of circuits in homes with problems. The common, while a circuit is active, has every single bit as much current and voltage as the hot side in the circuit. There is no possible way the hot side could carry more current, and/or voltage in a circuit than the common. It's not even theoretically possible. E = I x R. R = E / I. I = E / R. Ohms Law.
Click to expand...

I've done this measurement countless times. It's typically not much of a difference, hard to measure, but it IS there. Especially on a resistive load.

Actually, "a difference which makes no difference, is no difference" applies.


----------



## Intense

Hioki 3120 AC Voltage Detector, Twin Light Audible, 600V


The model 3120 employs two separate color LEDs to indicate battery power results in green and voltage check decision results in red. By displaying these two functions with different LED colors, the instrument status is apparent in a glance. Battery status can be continually indicated when the unit is on, by having the green LED always lit. You can also activate a switch to minimize power consumption by disabling the green LED when not in use. 

The 3120 was also designed with special attention to safety, as well as satisfying CAT IV 600V safety requirements. 

Luminous decision results are supplemented by the audible beeper, so that the reliable checking can be conducted even in harsh environments where the visual indication may be obscured. 


Features:

Safe and easy to use 
Green for battery check 
Red for voltage detection with audible tone
Specifications   
Measurement Function Voltage Detection 
Voltage Range AC 70 to 600 V, 50/60 Hz 
(when touching insulated wiring equivalent to IV2mm2 
Indication Red LED and continuous beeping sound 
Battery Check Green LED 
Power supply AAA manganese(R03) or alkaline(LR03) batteries × 2 
Rated Voltage DC 3.0 V 
Maximum Rated Power 170 mW(max) 
Rated Power 27 mW(Typ)(when switched to &#8220;ON &#8221;and in standby) 
Continuous Use approx. 200 hours 
(when switched to&#8220;ON &#8221; and in standy using LR03 batteries) 
Dimensions, mass 149 mm(5.87 in)H × f18.5 mm(0.73 in), 38 g (1.34 oz) 
Accessories AAA manganese(R03) batteries(2)


----------



## GWV5903

For your safety, get an electrician, he will be able to determine why the circuit is tripping, there are many reasons this could be happening, if your home has been built in the last 10 - 11 years, you will have an arch fault breaker for safety reasons, but they are very tempermental.....I know they are more expensive, but it is better to be safe than sorry with this issue.....good luck.....


----------



## Intense

Pale Rider said:


> Intense said:
> 
> 
> 
> There is a sensor that you can get from electrical supply stores for $20 or so that senses the magnetic field around the hot wire, it will light up or beep when it senses voltage.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, I have two of them. My older one just lights up. My new one lights up and beeps. There does NOT have to be current present, only voltage. Works on A/C and D/C. Just hold it near the wire. Or if you're standing under a telephone pole with a main line on it, say 2,500 VAC or so, you can be thirty feet away from it and it will go off. Yup, picks up the electromagnetic field.
Click to expand...


Yeah, pretty useless when diagnosing Double electric wall oven control panels. Good on 115VAC, good on snowed in evaporator coils on refrigerators, checking heaters or terminators.


----------



## Intense

GWV5903 said:


> For your safety, get an electrician, he will be able to determine why the circuit is tripping, there are many reasons this could be happening, if your home has been built in the last 10 - 11 years, you will have an arch fault breaker for safety reasons, but they are very tempermental.....I know they are more expensive, but it is better to be safe than sorry with this issue.....good luck.....



I think EZ got a hold of her maintenance guy about 50 posts ago.


----------



## Midnight Marauder

Intense said:


> GWV5903 said:
> 
> 
> 
> For your safety, get an electrician, he will be able to determine why the circuit is tripping, there are many reasons this could be happening, if your home has been built in the last 10 - 11 years, you will have an arch fault breaker for safety reasons, but they are very tempermental.....I know they are more expensive, but it is better to be safe than sorry with this issue.....good luck.....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think EZ got a hold of her maintenance guy about 50 posts ago.
Click to expand...

She said "handi-man" which sort of makes me a little nervous.


----------



## Intense

Midnight Marauder said:


> Intense said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> GWV5903 said:
> 
> 
> 
> For your safety, get an electrician, he will be able to determine why the circuit is tripping, there are many reasons this could be happening, if your home has been built in the last 10 - 11 years, you will have an arch fault breaker for safety reasons, but they are very tempermental.....I know they are more expensive, but it is better to be safe than sorry with this issue.....good luck.....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think EZ got a hold of her maintenance guy about 50 posts ago.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> She said "handi-man" which sort of makes me a little nervous.
Click to expand...


Have Faith MM!


----------



## 007

Intense said:


> Pale Rider said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Intense said:
> 
> 
> 
> There is a sensor that you can get from electrical supply stores for $20 or so that senses the magnetic field around the hot wire, it will light up or beep when it senses voltage.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, I have two of them. My older one just lights up. My new one lights up and beeps. There does NOT have to be current present, only voltage. Works on A/C and D/C. Just hold it near the wire. Or if you're standing under a telephone pole with a main line on it, say 2,500 VAC or so, you can be thirty feet away from it and it will go off. Yup, picks up the electromagnetic field.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yeah, pretty useless when diagnosing Double electric wall oven control panels. Good on 115VAC, good on snowed in evaporator coils on refrigerators, checking heaters or terminators.
Click to expand...


This is my new one. A Greenlee Inductive Voltage Detector. $20 straight from the electrical supplier...


----------



## 007

Great discussion guys... call me weird, but I love the electrical shit...


----------



## Intense

I've been using them about 21 years now, I know they have been around allot longer than that. Save me allot of time.


----------



## Ringel05

Hey EZ.  I think i found your problem.


----------



## GWV5903

Intense said:


> GWV5903 said:
> 
> 
> 
> For your safety, get an electrician, he will be able to determine why the circuit is tripping, there are many reasons this could be happening, if your home has been built in the last 10 - 11 years, you will have an arch fault breaker for safety reasons, but they are very tempermental.....I know they are more expensive, but it is better to be safe than sorry with this issue.....good luck.....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think EZ got a hold of her maintenance guy about 50 posts ago.
Click to expand...


I am a home builder, couldn't resit....


----------



## 007

Intense said:


> I've been using them about 21 years now, I know they have been around allot longer than that. Save me allot of time.



Saved me from handling hot wires lots of times.

Scenario:

Me: _"Hey Gary... is this circuit dead?"_

Gary: _"I think so."_

-check circuit-

Me: _"NO, IT'S NOT!"_


----------



## Ringel05

Pale Rider said:


> Intense said:
> 
> 
> 
> I've been using them about 21 years now, I know they have been around allot longer than that. Save me allot of time.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Saved me from handling hot wires lots of times.
> 
> Scenario:
> 
> Me: _"Hey Gary... is this circuit dead?"_
> 
> Gary: _"I think so."_
> 
> -check circuit-
> 
> Me: _"NO, IT'S NOT!"_
Click to expand...


Sounds like one time my super was up on top of a condo unit wiring new lights and was finishing up at the junction box.  I was down below at the electrical closet when I swore I heard him say "okay, turn the power on".  I did and a few seconds later there was a huge POW and billowing smoke.  Luckily (but stupidly) he was using a rubber gripped leatherman to stuff the wires in the box and stripped a couple in the process, he was fine, the leatherman was trashed.


----------



## Midnight Marauder

Pale Rider said:


> Intense said:
> 
> 
> 
> I've been using them about 21 years now, I know they have been around allot longer than that. Save me allot of time.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Saved me from handling hot wires lots of times.
> 
> Scenario:
> 
> Me: _"Hey Gary... is this circuit dead?"_
> 
> Gary: _"I think so."_
> 
> -check circuit-
> 
> Me: _"NO, IT'S NOT!"_
Click to expand...

Back in the day I always insisted on using a "wiggy" for checking voltage in control boxes of machinery. Still do. One day a fellow engineer from another plant was using his fluke meter to do that. I say, "Hey Tim, that's not the toy you wanna use for that, it can give you a false reading." He of much more experience than me at the time says, "Naw, if this is hot this meter will tell."

Well, no, sometimes they don't. Anyhow I was busy on another machine, and a little later on I heard him yelp. He'd gotten himself zapped because the box was indeed, still hot in some places. Not seriously hurt, thank goodness, he was of course stunned. I brought my wiggy over and found all of the hot spots his DMM had lied about.






"Don't leave home without it."

We hopped over to the supply house during lunch and got Tim one.


----------



## Midnight Marauder

Pale Rider said:


> Great discussion guys... call me weird, but I love the electrical shit...


Actually it's refreshing to have a rational discussion on here. The techie stuff seems to bore the usual gang of mindless dolts who populate USMB.

Shall we go into PLCs? I think they're the greatest thing since sliced bread. I made my retirement retrofitting old machinery with these babies. My home HVAC is all electric, and one of the first things I did after buying the house was putting a PLC on that! This little "brick" replaced a 5 gallon bucket full of old electrical junk and made the whole system easily programmable, on the fly, from my PC!


----------



## 007

Midnight Marauder said:


> Pale Rider said:
> 
> 
> 
> Great discussion guys... call me weird, but I love the electrical shit...
> 
> 
> 
> Actually it's refreshing to have a rational discussion on here. The techie stuff seems to bore the usual gang of mindless dolts who populate USMB.
> 
> Shall we go into PLCs? I think they're the greatest thing since sliced bread. I made my retirement retrofitting old machinery with these babies. My home HVAC is all electric, and one of the first things I did after buying the house was putting a PLC on that! This little "brick" replaced a 5 gallon bucket full of old electrical junk and made the whole system easily programmable, on the fly, from my PC!
Click to expand...


Ah yes, a Programmable Logic Controller. One of the machine shops I worked Maintenance in was filled with CNC machining centers, Computer Numerically Controlled. Similar but not quite.

Yes I do notice that the sassy trolls conveniently stay away from the tech talk. Too much logic and not enough emotion going on.


----------



## random3434

I just wish y'all lived by me and could come over and fix it for a home-cooked vegetarian dinner!  

My "handi-man" should be by tomorrow if he and I can work out a time. 


Unitl then daughter is sleeping in the living room, she likes it since  the TV, computer, etc is all out there.


----------



## 007

Echo Zulu said:


> I just wish y'all lived by me and could come over and fix it for a home-cooked vegetarian dinner!
> 
> My "handi-man" should be by tomorrow if he and I can work out a time.
> 
> Unitl then daughter is sleeping in the living room, she likes it since  the TV, computer, etc is all out there.



As voiced earlier in this thread EZ, I'm hoping this "handi-man" knows what he's doing, and most of all, I hope he knows "CODE." I don't know about where you live, but here in Wisconsin, once an electrician TOUCHES a circuit, he owns it. So since it's like that, the electrician will make sure that circuit is up to code, meaning that it conforms to all the safety and construction requirements by the NEC. A handi-man might be able to get the circuit working, but he may not fix it to code, and to make it worse, he may just create a fire hazard. I really would recommend calling a licensed electrician in this instance, then you can rest assured the work is done right. He has to take responsibility for his work. He'll be bonded too. An electrician here in Wisconsin can't even show up to a job unless he has his code book with him.


----------



## Midnight Marauder

Echo Zulu said:


> I just wish y'all lived by me and could come over and fix it for a home-cooked vegetarian dinner!


I work for beer! 2 six packs of St. Pauli Girl would do nicely.


----------



## 007

Midnight Marauder said:


> Echo Zulu said:
> 
> 
> 
> I just wish y'all lived by me and could come over and fix it for a home-cooked vegetarian dinner!
> 
> 
> 
> I work for beer! 2 six packs of St. Pauli Girl would do nicely.
Click to expand...


Sounds like we better head for EZ's place MM, and I'll split the beer with ya...


----------



## Midnight Marauder

Pale Rider said:


> Midnight Marauder said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pale Rider said:
> 
> 
> 
> Great discussion guys... call me weird, but I love the electrical shit...
> 
> 
> 
> Actually it's refreshing to have a rational discussion on here. The techie stuff seems to bore the usual gang of mindless dolts who populate USMB.
> 
> Shall we go into PLCs? I think they're the greatest thing since sliced bread. I made my retirement retrofitting old machinery with these babies. My home HVAC is all electric, and one of the first things I did after buying the house was putting a PLC on that! This little "brick" replaced a 5 gallon bucket full of old electrical junk and made the whole system easily programmable, on the fly, from my PC!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Ah yes, a Programmable Logic Controller. One of the machine shops I worked Maintenance in was filled with CNC machining centers, Computer Numerically Controlled. Similar but not quite.
> 
> Yes I do notice that the sassy trolls conveniently stay away from the tech talk. Too much logic and not enough emotion going on.
Click to expand...

Beautiful little machines. You can make them do anything, TO anything. I have retrofitted dozens of different machines with them, expanding the safety, versatility, reliability and capabilities of the machines exponentially. Then charging the ever living PISS out of the owners for the service.

In all cases however, they saved thousands over buying a new piece of equipment.


----------



## 007

Midnight Marauder said:


> Pale Rider said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Midnight Marauder said:
> 
> 
> 
> Actually it's refreshing to have a rational discussion on here. The techie stuff seems to bore the usual gang of mindless dolts who populate USMB.
> 
> Shall we go into PLCs? I think they're the greatest thing since sliced bread. I made my retirement retrofitting old machinery with these babies. My home HVAC is all electric, and one of the first things I did after buying the house was putting a PLC on that! This little "brick" replaced a 5 gallon bucket full of old electrical junk and made the whole system easily programmable, on the fly, from my PC!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ah yes, a Programmable Logic Controller. One of the machine shops I worked Maintenance in was filled with CNC machining centers, Computer Numerically Controlled. Similar but not quite.
> 
> Yes I do notice that the sassy trolls conveniently stay away from the tech talk. Too much logic and not enough emotion going on.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Beautiful little machines. You can make them do anything, TO anything. I have retrofitted dozens of different machines with them, expanding the safety, versatility, reliability and capabilities of the machines exponentially. Then charging the ever living PISS out of the owners for the service.
> 
> In all cases however, they saved thousands over buying a new piece of equipment.
Click to expand...


We had two, old, horizontal band saws that we retrofitted with PLC's. They were rather large and would have cost a considerable amount to replace with new. We were able to not only make them more reliable, but also was able to fit a feed apparatus to them, and automatic clamp and a measuring system, all controlled by the PLC. So we didn't have to have a man standing next to them manually feeding stock in after every cut. Saved lots of time and money. I hear ya there pard, PLC's are wonderful things.


----------



## Midnight Marauder

Pale Rider said:


> Midnight Marauder said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pale Rider said:
> 
> 
> 
> Ah yes, a Programmable Logic Controller. One of the machine shops I worked Maintenance in was filled with CNC machining centers, Computer Numerically Controlled. Similar but not quite.
> 
> Yes I do notice that the sassy trolls conveniently stay away from the tech talk. Too much logic and not enough emotion going on.
> 
> 
> 
> Beautiful little machines. You can make them do anything, TO anything. I have retrofitted dozens of different machines with them, expanding the safety, versatility, reliability and capabilities of the machines exponentially. Then charging the ever living PISS out of the owners for the service.
> 
> In all cases however, they saved thousands over buying a new piece of equipment.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> We had two, old, horizontal band saws that we retrofitted with PLC's. They were rather large and would have cost a considerable amount to replace with new. We were able to not only make them more reliable, but also was able to fit a feed apparatus to them, and automatic clamp and a measuring system, all controlled by the PLC. So we didn't have to have a man standing next to them manually feeding stock in after every cut. Saved lots of time and money. I hear ya there pard, PLC's are wonderful things.
Click to expand...

And just look at all the JUNK you were able to shitcan in the process!

On my HVAC, I also pulled another little trick -- the single phase, capacitor-start blower motor I replaced with a 3 phase one. But.... But.... But..... All I have for service is single phase 220. How did I DO that?


----------



## 007

Midnight Marauder said:


> And just look at all the JUNK you were able to shitcan in the process!


Lots of wires and relays.



Midnight Marauder said:


> On my HVAC, I also pulled another little trick -- the single phase, capacitor-start blower motor I replaced with a 3 phase one. But.... But.... But..... All I have for service is single phase 220. How did I DO that?


The PLC takes the single phase and lags two more out on taps that are all 120 degrees apart.


----------



## Midnight Marauder

Pale Rider said:


> Midnight Marauder said:
> 
> 
> 
> And just look at all the JUNK you were able to shitcan in the process!
> 
> 
> 
> Lots of wires and relays.
> 
> 
> 
> Midnight Marauder said:
> 
> 
> 
> On my HVAC, I also pulled another little trick -- the single phase, capacitor-start blower motor I replaced with a 3 phase one. But.... But.... But..... All I have for service is single phase 220. How did I DO that?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The PLC takes the single phase and lags two more out on taps that are all 120 degrees apart.
Click to expand...

Oh no no no. Can't have that. I want to control the speed of the motor as well.....


----------



## 007

Midnight Marauder said:


> Pale Rider said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Midnight Marauder said:
> 
> 
> 
> And just look at all the JUNK you were able to shitcan in the process!
> 
> 
> 
> Lots of wires and relays.
> 
> 
> 
> Midnight Marauder said:
> 
> 
> 
> On my HVAC, I also pulled another little trick -- the single phase, capacitor-start blower motor I replaced with a 3 phase one. But.... But.... But..... All I have for service is single phase 220. How did I DO that?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The PLC takes the single phase and lags two more out on taps that are all 120 degrees apart.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Oh no no no. Can't have that. I want to control the speed of the motor as well.....
Click to expand...


Rheostat.


----------



## Midnight Marauder

Pale Rider said:


> Midnight Marauder said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pale Rider said:
> 
> 
> 
> Lots of wires and relays.
> 
> 
> The PLC takes the single phase and lags two more out on taps that are all 120 degrees apart.
> 
> 
> 
> Oh no no no. Can't have that. I want to control the speed of the motor as well.....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Rheostat.
Click to expand...

Wrong again, Batman!

Digital control of the blower motor is obtained by installing a VFD, variable frequency drive! On these, you don't need 3 phase power, you merely have to power up the DC bus! It outputs a digitally simulated three phase, allows complete control of the voltage and frequency, allowing total control of the rotor!

It's beautiful in a blower application: We have eliminated inrush current, done away with capacitors and start relays, and heaters, and get ONLY the CFM we want at any given status, all of which IS controlled according to your program in the PLC!

This also allows us to greatly INCREASE CFM well past the original specs if we want.... Because 3 phase motors are sort of like cattle. The more "hertz" you put on them, the faster they move!


----------



## Intense

Midnight Marauder said:


> Pale Rider said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Midnight Marauder said:
> 
> 
> 
> Oh no no no. Can't have that. I want to control the speed of the motor as well.....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Rheostat.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Wrong again, Batman!
> 
> Digital control of the blower motor is obtained by installing a VFD, variable frequency drive! On these, you don't need 3 phase power, you merely have to power up the DC bus! It outputs a digitally simulated three phase, allows complete control of the voltage and frequency, allowing total control of the rotor!
> 
> It's beautiful in a blower application: We have eliminated inrush current, done away with capacitors and start relays, and heaters, and get ONLY the CFM we want at any given status, all of which IS controlled according to your program in the PLC!
> 
> This also allows us to greatly INCREASE CFM well past the original specs if we want.... Because 3 phase motors are sort of like cattle. The more "hertz" you put on them, the faster they move!
Click to expand...


Washing Machine Technology has gone there too, 3 Phase DC simulated motors, there are electronic noise issues with variable voltage that need to be protected against. Some of the Compressor Technology on Refrigerators is going that way too, with variable speed compressors. Serious changes are coming. I'm not too much on the PC end, we generally run the prescribed diagnostics, and just R&R the modules or boards when they fail. Very Few field repairs unless obvious stuff. 

Fisher-Paykel was a big part of bringing that here. 

Sounds fantastic what you are doing retrofitting that equipment. It takes a really innovative mind to make that happen.


----------



## 007

Midnight Marauder said:


> Pale Rider said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Midnight Marauder said:
> 
> 
> 
> Oh no no no. Can't have that. I want to control the speed of the motor as well.....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Rheostat.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Wrong again, Batman!
> 
> Digital control of the blower motor is obtained by installing a VFD, variable frequency drive! On these, you don't need 3 phase power, you merely have to power up the DC bus! It outputs a digitally simulated three phase, allows complete control of the voltage and frequency, allowing total control of the rotor!
> 
> It's beautiful in a blower application: We have eliminated inrush current, done away with capacitors and start relays, and heaters, and get ONLY the CFM we want at any given status, all of which IS controlled according to your program in the PLC!
> 
> This also allows us to greatly INCREASE CFM well past the original specs if we want.... Because 3 phase motors are sort of like cattle. The more "hertz" you put on them, the faster they move!
Click to expand...


Hey... I was right about the simulated three phase...


----------



## Midnight Marauder

Intense said:


> Midnight Marauder said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pale Rider said:
> 
> 
> 
> Rheostat.
> 
> 
> 
> Wrong again, Batman!
> 
> Digital control of the blower motor is obtained by installing a VFD, variable frequency drive! On these, you don't need 3 phase power, you merely have to power up the DC bus! It outputs a digitally simulated three phase, allows complete control of the voltage and frequency, allowing total control of the rotor!
> 
> It's beautiful in a blower application: We have eliminated inrush current, done away with capacitors and start relays, and heaters, and get ONLY the CFM we want at any given status, all of which IS controlled according to your program in the PLC!
> 
> This also allows us to greatly INCREASE CFM well past the original specs if we want.... Because 3 phase motors are sort of like cattle. The more "hertz" you put on them, the faster they move!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Washing Machine Technology has gone there too, 3 Phase DC simulated motors, there are electronic noise issues with variable voltage that need to be protected against. Some of the Compressor Technology on Refrigerators is going that way too, with variable speed compressors. Serious changes are coming. I'm not too much on the PC end, we generally run the prescribed diagnostics, and just R&R the modules or boards when they fail. Very Few field repairs unless obvious stuff.
> 
> Fisher-Paykel was a big part of bringing that here.
> 
> Sounds fantastic what you are doing retrofitting that equipment. It takes a really innovative mind to make that happen.
Click to expand...

I was one of the first to ever in history, apply this technology to industrial washer-extractors. Four 1964 model American Laundry Machinery Inc. Cascadex 400x washers got the treatment, eliminating on each, three motors, the jackshaft, clutch and all associated controls, going single motor drive on these way back in 1989. Toshiba drives, but this was pre-PLC. The customer was so pleased, that he had me back in 1995, upgrading the drives to Magnetek drives, and installing PLCs on these babies!

Since then I have done this to several open-pocket Braun washer-extractors, and also to several makes of industrial dryers/conditioners, several models of flatwork feeders, ironers and folders, and even did a BOILER blower with it.

The VFD and the PLC were control GODSENDS. And made me a TON of money because I was able to learn them inside and out, and understand the almost boundless possibilities of their applications.

Right now I am working on a automotive application for this, diesel electric hybrid. The diesel motor turns my generator, making my DC bus power for the VFD, which drives a single, 3 phase motor..... And everything, I mean everything, is PLC controlled. Everything from the lights, the horn, the wipers, power windows, you name it, it's all 5 volt controls going as inputs to the PLC.

Estimating 200 MPG on the Hummer I am retrofitting with this technology....


----------



## Midnight Marauder

Pale Rider said:


> Midnight Marauder said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pale Rider said:
> 
> 
> 
> Rheostat.
> 
> 
> 
> Wrong again, Batman!
> 
> Digital control of the blower motor is obtained by installing a VFD, variable frequency drive! On these, you don't need 3 phase power, you merely have to power up the DC bus! It outputs a digitally simulated three phase, allows complete control of the voltage and frequency, allowing total control of the rotor!
> 
> It's beautiful in a blower application: We have eliminated inrush current, done away with capacitors and start relays, and heaters, and get ONLY the CFM we want at any given status, all of which IS controlled according to your program in the PLC!
> 
> This also allows us to greatly INCREASE CFM well past the original specs if we want.... Because 3 phase motors are sort of like cattle. The more "hertz" you put on them, the faster they move!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Hey... I was right about the simulated three phase...
Click to expand...

Yup.... But the key of course is the digital frequency control.


----------



## Intense

Midnight Marauder said:


> Intense said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Midnight Marauder said:
> 
> 
> 
> Wrong again, Batman!
> 
> Digital control of the blower motor is obtained by installing a VFD, variable frequency drive! On these, you don't need 3 phase power, you merely have to power up the DC bus! It outputs a digitally simulated three phase, allows complete control of the voltage and frequency, allowing total control of the rotor!
> 
> It's beautiful in a blower application: We have eliminated inrush current, done away with capacitors and start relays, and heaters, and get ONLY the CFM we want at any given status, all of which IS controlled according to your program in the PLC!
> 
> This also allows us to greatly INCREASE CFM well past the original specs if we want.... Because 3 phase motors are sort of like cattle. The more "hertz" you put on them, the faster they move!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Washing Machine Technology has gone there too, 3 Phase DC simulated motors, there are electronic noise issues with variable voltage that need to be protected against. Some of the Compressor Technology on Refrigerators is going that way too, with variable speed compressors. Serious changes are coming. I'm not too much on the PC end, we generally run the prescribed diagnostics, and just R&R the modules or boards when they fail. Very Few field repairs unless obvious stuff.
> 
> Fisher-Paykel was a big part of bringing that here.
> 
> Sounds fantastic what you are doing retrofitting that equipment. It takes a really innovative mind to make that happen.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I was one of the first to ever in history, apply this technology to industrial washer-extractors. Four 1964 model American Laundry Machinery Inc. Cascadex 400x washers got the treatment, eliminating on each, three motors, the jackshaft, clutch and all associated controls, going single motor drive on these way back in 1989. Toshiba drives, but this was pre-PLC. The customer was so pleased, that he had me back in 1995, upgrading the drives to Magnetek drives, and installing PLCs on these babies!
> 
> Since then I have done this to several open-pocket Braun washer-extractors, and also to several makes of industrial dryers/conditioners, several models of flatwork feeders, ironers and folders, and even did a BOILER blower with it.
> 
> The VFD and the PLC were control GODSENDS. And made me a TON of money because I was able to learn them inside and out, and understand the almost boundless possibilities of their applications.
> 
> Right now I am working on a automotive application for this, diesel electric hybrid. The diesel motor turns my generator, making my DC bus power for the VFD, which drives a single, 3 phase motor..... And everything, I mean everything, is PLC controlled. Everything from the lights, the horn, the wipers, power windows, you name it, it's all 5 volt controls going as inputs to the PLC.
> 
> Estimating 200 MPG on the Hummer I am retrofitting with this technology....
Click to expand...


It's way over my head, but it is really amazing Technology. Do you have issues with Electronic noise. Maytag had a nice fix in the design.


----------



## 007

Midnight Marauder said:


> Intense said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Midnight Marauder said:
> 
> 
> 
> Wrong again, Batman!
> 
> Digital control of the blower motor is obtained by installing a VFD, variable frequency drive! On these, you don't need 3 phase power, you merely have to power up the DC bus! It outputs a digitally simulated three phase, allows complete control of the voltage and frequency, allowing total control of the rotor!
> 
> It's beautiful in a blower application: We have eliminated inrush current, done away with capacitors and start relays, and heaters, and get ONLY the CFM we want at any given status, all of which IS controlled according to your program in the PLC!
> 
> This also allows us to greatly INCREASE CFM well past the original specs if we want.... Because 3 phase motors are sort of like cattle. The more "hertz" you put on them, the faster they move!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Washing Machine Technology has gone there too, 3 Phase DC simulated motors, there are electronic noise issues with variable voltage that need to be protected against. Some of the Compressor Technology on Refrigerators is going that way too, with variable speed compressors. Serious changes are coming. I'm not too much on the PC end, we generally run the prescribed diagnostics, and just R&R the modules or boards when they fail. Very Few field repairs unless obvious stuff.
> 
> Fisher-Paykel was a big part of bringing that here.
> 
> Sounds fantastic what you are doing retrofitting that equipment. It takes a really innovative mind to make that happen.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I was one of the first to ever in history, apply this technology to industrial washer-extractors. Four 1964 model American Laundry Machinery Inc. Cascadex 400x washers got the treatment, eliminating on each, three motors, the jackshaft, clutch and all associated controls, going single motor drive on these way back in 1989. Toshiba drives, but this was pre-PLC. The customer was so pleased, that he had me back in 1995, upgrading the drives to Magnetek drives, and installing PLCs on these babies!
> 
> Since then I have done this to several open-pocket Braun washer-extractors, and also to several makes of industrial dryers/conditioners, several models of flatwork feeders, ironers and folders, and even did a BOILER blower with it.
> 
> The VFD and the PLC were control GODSENDS. And made me a TON of money because I was able to learn them inside and out, and understand the almost boundless possibilities of their applications.
> 
> Right now I am working on a automotive application for this, diesel electric hybrid. The diesel motor turns my generator, making my DC bus power for the VFD, which drives a single, 3 phase motor..... And everything, I mean everything, is PLC controlled. Everything from the lights, the horn, the wipers, power windows, you name it, it's all 5 volt controls going as inputs to the PLC.
> 
> Estimating 200 MPG on the Hummer I am retrofitting with this technology....
Click to expand...


Impressive, to say the least.


----------



## Midnight Marauder

Intense said:


> Midnight Marauder said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Intense said:
> 
> 
> 
> Washing Machine Technology has gone there too, 3 Phase DC simulated motors, there are electronic noise issues with variable voltage that need to be protected against. Some of the Compressor Technology on Refrigerators is going that way too, with variable speed compressors. Serious changes are coming. I'm not too much on the PC end, we generally run the prescribed diagnostics, and just R&R the modules or boards when they fail. Very Few field repairs unless obvious stuff.
> 
> Fisher-Paykel was a big part of bringing that here.
> 
> Sounds fantastic what you are doing retrofitting that equipment. It takes a really innovative mind to make that happen.
> 
> 
> 
> I was one of the first to ever in history, apply this technology to industrial washer-extractors. Four 1964 model American Laundry Machinery Inc. Cascadex 400x washers got the treatment, eliminating on each, three motors, the jackshaft, clutch and all associated controls, going single motor drive on these way back in 1989. Toshiba drives, but this was pre-PLC. The customer was so pleased, that he had me back in 1995, upgrading the drives to Magnetek drives, and installing PLCs on these babies!
> 
> Since then I have done this to several open-pocket Braun washer-extractors, and also to several makes of industrial dryers/conditioners, several models of flatwork feeders, ironers and folders, and even did a BOILER blower with it.
> 
> The VFD and the PLC were control GODSENDS. And made me a TON of money because I was able to learn them inside and out, and understand the almost boundless possibilities of their applications.
> 
> Right now I am working on a automotive application for this, diesel electric hybrid. The diesel motor turns my generator, making my DC bus power for the VFD, which drives a single, 3 phase motor..... And everything, I mean everything, is PLC controlled. Everything from the lights, the horn, the wipers, power windows, you name it, it's all 5 volt controls going as inputs to the PLC.
> 
> Estimating 200 MPG on the Hummer I am retrofitting with this technology....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> It's way over my head, but it is really amazing Technology. Do you have issues with Electronic noise. Maytag had a nice fix in the design.
Click to expand...

The close proximity of the components in residential applications, I think, is most of the noise issue. I've never had any issues at all with it, mostly I think it's because even on small applications like my HVAC unit, there's still quite a bit of space between components. On the VFDs I use, there is total separation between the output 3 phase, and the control circuits throughout. We don't get any noise feedback through the DC bus on these.

Another way I avoid noise problems is I eschew the use of optical isolated switching. (Opto-isolators.) These are little chips that have a photoelectric switch in them, then when a 5 volt signal is sent to the collector a little LED inside lights up, actuating the little photocell. These are noise magnets, and I learned to design without them early on. They're a slick little gizmo but they're touchy, hate vibration, heat and cold, noise rattles them out of commission all to easily, and they just generally don't meet my reliability requirements. These unfortunately are popular in today's residential appliance applications.


----------



## Midnight Marauder

Pale Rider said:


> Midnight Marauder said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Intense said:
> 
> 
> 
> Washing Machine Technology has gone there too, 3 Phase DC simulated motors, there are electronic noise issues with variable voltage that need to be protected against. Some of the Compressor Technology on Refrigerators is going that way too, with variable speed compressors. Serious changes are coming. I'm not too much on the PC end, we generally run the prescribed diagnostics, and just R&R the modules or boards when they fail. Very Few field repairs unless obvious stuff.
> 
> Fisher-Paykel was a big part of bringing that here.
> 
> Sounds fantastic what you are doing retrofitting that equipment. It takes a really innovative mind to make that happen.
> 
> 
> 
> I was one of the first to ever in history, apply this technology to industrial washer-extractors. Four 1964 model American Laundry Machinery Inc. Cascadex 400x washers got the treatment, eliminating on each, three motors, the jackshaft, clutch and all associated controls, going single motor drive on these way back in 1989. Toshiba drives, but this was pre-PLC. The customer was so pleased, that he had me back in 1995, upgrading the drives to Magnetek drives, and installing PLCs on these babies!
> 
> Since then I have done this to several open-pocket Braun washer-extractors, and also to several makes of industrial dryers/conditioners, several models of flatwork feeders, ironers and folders, and even did a BOILER blower with it.
> 
> The VFD and the PLC were control GODSENDS. And made me a TON of money because I was able to learn them inside and out, and understand the almost boundless possibilities of their applications.
> 
> Right now I am working on a automotive application for this, diesel electric hybrid. The diesel motor turns my generator, making my DC bus power for the VFD, which drives a single, 3 phase motor..... And everything, I mean everything, is PLC controlled. Everything from the lights, the horn, the wipers, power windows, you name it, it's all 5 volt controls going as inputs to the PLC.
> 
> Estimating 200 MPG on the Hummer I am retrofitting with this technology....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Impressive, to say the least.
Click to expand...

If it actually works as planned. One of the issues with it is, everything is "fly by wire" which is what got Toyota in trouble.

The accelerator on this isn't mechanical, it's a commutator, for starters.

Bench testing continues.... But the genesis of this idea was simple: If locomotives can be diesel-electric, why can't cars? Just scale 'em down!


----------



## 007

Midnight Marauder said:


> Pale Rider said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Midnight Marauder said:
> 
> 
> 
> I was one of the first to ever in history, apply this technology to industrial washer-extractors. Four 1964 model American Laundry Machinery Inc. Cascadex 400x washers got the treatment, eliminating on each, three motors, the jackshaft, clutch and all associated controls, going single motor drive on these way back in 1989. Toshiba drives, but this was pre-PLC. The customer was so pleased, that he had me back in 1995, upgrading the drives to Magnetek drives, and installing PLCs on these babies!
> 
> Since then I have done this to several open-pocket Braun washer-extractors, and also to several makes of industrial dryers/conditioners, several models of flatwork feeders, ironers and folders, and even did a BOILER blower with it.
> 
> The VFD and the PLC were control GODSENDS. And made me a TON of money because I was able to learn them inside and out, and understand the almost boundless possibilities of their applications.
> 
> Right now I am working on a automotive application for this, diesel electric hybrid. The diesel motor turns my generator, making my DC bus power for the VFD, which drives a single, 3 phase motor..... And everything, I mean everything, is PLC controlled. Everything from the lights, the horn, the wipers, power windows, you name it, it's all 5 volt controls going as inputs to the PLC.
> 
> Estimating 200 MPG on the Hummer I am retrofitting with this technology....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Impressive, to say the least.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> If it actually works as planned. One of the issues with it is, everything is "fly by wire" which is what got Toyota in trouble.
> 
> The accelerator on this isn't mechanical, it's a commutator, for starters.
> 
> Bench testing continues.... But the genesis of this idea was simple: If locomotives can be diesel-electric, why can't cars? Just scale 'em down!
Click to expand...


The F-16's I worked on were "fly by wire," E-core, synchro - servo. Now, the new Harley Davidsons have "fly by wire" throttles. No more throttle cable. I think the new Corvettes have been experimenting with fly by wire steering.


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## Midnight Marauder

Pale Rider said:


> Midnight Marauder said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pale Rider said:
> 
> 
> 
> Impressive, to say the least.
> 
> 
> 
> If it actually works as planned. One of the issues with it is, everything is "fly by wire" which is what got Toyota in trouble.
> 
> The accelerator on this isn't mechanical, it's a commutator, for starters.
> 
> Bench testing continues.... But the genesis of this idea was simple: If locomotives can be diesel-electric, why can't cars? Just scale 'em down!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The F-16's I worked on were "fly by wire." Now, the new Harley Davidsons have "fly by wire" throttles. No more throttle cable. I think the new Corvettes have been experimenting with fly by wire steering.
Click to expand...

I won't go there for steering.... But yeah, "fly by wire" is the wave of the future.


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## Midnight Marauder

My career truck driving friend has been getting these new "fly by wire" trucks, and he loves them. These things almost drive themselves, make corrections when you mess up, find the best routes to use, and even wake you up if it thinks you're drowsy or not paying adequate attention. He says it's taken much of the stress out of his 48-state hauling.


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## ekrem

You need a male in the house, who looks after these kind of things. 

Or you try this:
[ame=http://www.amazon.com/Black-Decker-Everyday-Repairs-Improvement/dp/0865735913]Amazon.com: Black & Decker: Everyday Home Repairs (Black & Decker Home Improvement Library) (0052944011857): Editors of Creative Publishing, The Home Improvement Editors of CPi: Books: Reviews, Prices & more[/ame]

It also exists as CD-ROM version.


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