# Israel's Lies



## P F Tinmore (Jul 28, 2020)

Let's start at the beginning.

A land without people for a people without land.


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## Dogmaphobe (Jul 28, 2020)

Good thing this thread wasn't titled "Tinmore's Lies", otherwise we might be at it for a while.

 Yes, you hate Jews and you have mentioned many times that you want them killed.  The fact remains that there has been an uninterrupted Jewish presense in the area for over 3000 years.


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## Sunni Man (Jul 28, 2020)

The zionist Israeli pukes have created a gigantic lie to explain how their theft of other people's land wasn't really theft.  ...


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## rylah (Jul 28, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> Let's start at the beginning.
> 
> A land without people for a people without land.



Try another strawman:

In its most common wording, _A land without a people and a people without a land_, the phrase appeared in print in an 1844 review of Keith's book in a Scottish Free Church magazine.[6]

 In 1875, Shaftesbury told the annual general meeting of the Palestine Exploration Fund that "We have there a land teeming with fertility and rich in history, but almost without an inhabitant – a country without a people, and look! scattered over the world, a people without a country".[10]


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## Hollie (Jul 28, 2020)

What lies?

Let's be honest. This thread is just another place where you will dump your youtube video collection.


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## rylah (Jul 28, 2020)

Sunni Man said:


> The zionist Israeli pukes have created a gigantic lie to explain how their theft of other people's land wasn't really theft.  ...



Maybe you Camel frauds who raped and stole the entire MENA region, instead of whining for being defeated by the weakest bunch of former dhimmis, should at least learn to pronounce that name of the land correctly?


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## Anathema (Jul 28, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> Let's start at the beginning.
> 
> A land without people for a people without land.



Let me say this... the people who you claim the land was stolen from have routinely gotten their asses kicked every time they’ve tried to rise up since 1948. That would suggest to me Israel has a claim to the land by Right of Conquest, if nothing else.


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## Sunni Man (Jul 28, 2020)

Israeli juden continually surprise attack and bomb their neighbors claiming it was self defense.  ...


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## Toddsterpatriot (Jul 28, 2020)

Sunni Man said:


> Israeli juden continually surprise attack and bomb their neighbors claiming it was self defense.  ...



Plus Pallies are pussies.


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## rylah (Jul 28, 2020)

Sunni Man said:


> Israeli juden continually surprise attack and bomb their neighbors claiming it was self defense.  ...



Actually we say we're there to send your Camel asses to the virgins...

Win-win.


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## Andylusion (Jul 28, 2020)

Sunni Man said:


> The zionist Israeli pukes have created a gigantic lie to explain how their theft of other people's land wasn't really theft.  ...



The Jews have been in the land of Israel that was promised to them by G-d, since before Israel had a king.

Further, they didn't 'steal' the land.  The Arabs left when the attacking Arab armies threatened to kill them if they stayed.   The Arabs that did not leave, are still in Israel with their property.  The ones that left Israel when Israel needed to defend itself, lost their property.

If I was in your country, and fled to the country of an invading army, your country would take my property.


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## Hollie (Jul 28, 2020)

Sunni Man said:


> Israeli juden continually surprise attack and bomb their neighbors claiming it was self defense.  ...


As a goofy convert safely ensconced in the Great Satan, why not do some gee-had outreach? Buy some balloons, a plane ticket and make a pilgrimage to the Israeli border fence, tough guy.


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## Sunni Man (Jul 28, 2020)

Anathema said:


> Let me say this... the people who you claim the land was stolen from have routinely gotten their asses kicked every time they’ve tried to rise up since 1948.


Many years ago I was in direct sales. They taught you not to worry when people said no to your offer, because eventually someone would say yes and buy the product.
So I doesn't bother me how many times the Palestinian freedom fighters are defeated. Because all I will take is 1 win against the Israeli zionists, and it's game over for them.  ...


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## Toddsterpatriot (Jul 28, 2020)

Sunni Man said:


> Anathema said:
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> > Let me say this... the people who you claim the land was stolen from have routinely gotten their asses kicked every time they’ve tried to rise up since 1948.
> ...



Hold your breath, it'll happen faster. DURR


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## rylah (Jul 28, 2020)

Sunni Man said:


> Anathema said:
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> > Let me say this... the people who you claim the land was stolen from have routinely gotten their asses kicked every time they’ve tried to rise up since 1948.
> ...


Oh, then it's game over for all.
Israel is a nation too small to be pressured to the brink.

Is hurt pride worth all you turning into frozen camel fossils in a glass?


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## Sunni Man (Jul 28, 2020)

rylah said:


> Oh, then it's game over for all. Israel is a country too small to be pressured to the brink, Is hurt pride worth all you turning into frozen camel fossils in a glass?


My prediction is the terrorist state of Israel will implode and collapse upon itself due to government corruption and minority demographics. 
It will be a wonderful day!!  ...


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## Toddsterpatriot (Jul 28, 2020)

Sunni Man said:


> rylah said:
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> > Oh, then it's game over for all. Israel is a country too small to be pressured to the brink, Is hurt pride worth all you turning into frozen camel fossils in a glass?
> ...



And if that day ever comes, the Pallies will still be unable to build a state of their own.


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## rylah (Jul 28, 2020)

Sunni Man said:


> rylah said:
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> > Oh, then it's game over for all. Israel is a country too small to be pressured to the brink, Is hurt pride worth all you turning into frozen camel fossils in a glass?
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We don't really have the option of collapsing due to corruption, that luxury is only reserved for the big countries in the region and their Arab Springs, Winters and whatever nonesense you indulge. If PM Netanyahu was a bit younger we'd vote him to PM for another decade just to keep kicking your camel asses.

Minority demographics?
You really don't pay attention,
because the entire Arab world is on a fast birthrate decline.

Israel will reform Islam, already does, you're a fossil of an outdated demo version.


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## P F Tinmore (Jul 28, 2020)

Dogmaphobe said:


> Good thing this thread wasn't titled "Tinmore's Lies", otherwise we might be at it for a while.
> 
> Yes, you hate Jews and you have mentioned many times that you want them killed.  The fact remains that there has been an uninterrupted Jewish presense in the area for over 3000 years.





Dogmaphobe said:


> Yes, you hate Jews and you have mentioned many times


No, I just hate lies and Israel is fertile ground.


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## ILOVEISRAEL (Jul 28, 2020)

Sunni Man said:


> rylah said:
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> > Oh, then it's game over for all. Israel is a country too small to be pressured to the brink, Is hurt pride worth all you turning into frozen camel fossils in a glass?
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Do us all a favor; Hold your breath until it happens


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## ILOVEISRAEL (Jul 28, 2020)

Yes


P F Tinmore said:


> Let's start at the beginning.
> 
> A land without people for a people without land.



YAWN..., In his senile “ mind” May 14, 1948 does not exist. Let him continue to live under that delusion


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## rylah (Jul 28, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> Dogmaphobe said:
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> > Good thing this thread wasn't titled "Tinmore's Lies", otherwise we might be at it for a while.
> ...



How does it feel to hate your job?
After 10 years of daily Jihadi love songs, no raise and no goats.

Poor thing....


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## Hossfly (Jul 28, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> Let's start at the beginning.
> 
> A land without people for a people without land.



You still at this futile poppycock, Tinmore?


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## P F Tinmore (Jul 28, 2020)

rylah said:


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I have a good life. Thank you for your concern.


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## rylah (Jul 28, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


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Really??

For someone who spends 10 years of his most waking hours obsessing over a single theme, doesn't suggest you have much life, or even like people, 
rather degradation on the sociopath spectrum.


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## Dogmaphobe (Jul 28, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


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Your Jew hatred says otherwise.

it is symptomatic of poor white trash with self esteem issues.


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## Jarlaxle (Jul 29, 2020)

Sunni Man said:


> Anathema said:
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> > Let me say this... the people who you claim the land was stolen from have routinely gotten their asses kicked every time they’ve tried to rise up since 1948.
> ...



It would also be game over for everyone...because the Israelis WILL go nuclear. (They were ready to do so in 1973.) It WILL end with mushroom clouds.  If overrun, the Palestinians will conquer an uninhabitable wasteland.

Every problem the Israelis have had has come from being soft.


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## P F Tinmore (Jul 29, 2020)

Hmmm, two pages of responses and nobody refuted my post.

So off to the next lie.

The "civil war" phase of the 1948 war.


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## Toddsterpatriot (Jul 29, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> Hmmm, two pages of responses and nobody refuted my post.
> 
> So off to the next lie.
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> The "civil war" phase of the 1948 war.



*Hmmm, two pages of responses and nobody refuted my post.*


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## rylah (Jul 30, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> Hmmm, two pages of responses and nobody refuted my post.



Yeah your usual manipulations -make big claims, and ignore anything that refutes your BS.

If facts were on your side, why the need to misquote the phrase?
And why the need to deceive about who actually coined it?


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## fncceo (Jul 30, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> Israel is fertile ground.



It wasn't before The Jews made it bloom.


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## P F Tinmore (Jul 31, 2020)

fncceo said:


> P F Tinmore said:
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Not to mention that the Palestinians exported food long before the Zionists showed up.


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## fncceo (Jul 31, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


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Jewish Palestinians ... they were a thing before the knock-off Egyptian / Jordanian variety showed up.


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## rylah (Jul 31, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


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Yeah, you wanna tell us who owned the sea port and commerce in Gaza back then?
Not to mention that under Feudal Caliphate rule, the food produce was lowest in the region.

Arabians learned farming from the native Jews,
but being more prone to nomadic stock grazing and Caravan pillaging, weren't much successful.


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## fncceo (Jul 31, 2020)

rylah said:


> Yeah, you wanna tell us who owned the sea port and commerce in Gaza back then?



The Brits.


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## rylah (Jul 31, 2020)

fncceo said:


> rylah said:
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> > Yeah, you wanna tell us who owned the sea port and commerce in Gaza back then?
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Local Jews, specifically the Jewish quarter of Gaza managed it, and was one of main commercial hubs for trade of Caravans from Hijaz. With a complete monopoly in the land on exports of the local Handal watermelon, barley and wheat.

Under Muslim rule the commerce mostly on decline, and never stable, with invading Arabian inter tribal wars causing devastation to the city, that left the port inactive for long periods.


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## rylah (Jul 31, 2020)

fncceo

And the Caliphates's Damascus district commerce? The Ferhi family.
Pretty much the entire Levant region.

Read about it, very interesting.


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## P F Tinmore (Aug 3, 2020)

rylah said:


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So, how many Jewish farms were there?


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## rylah (Aug 3, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


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Depending on the period, but Gaza was a key cultural, economic and agricultural Jewish center.
The highest neighborhood in the city is the one that Arabs still call "Harit al-Yahood" (Jewish neighborhood in Arabic).

The main livelihood of the Jewish community there was commerce and agriculture.
And naturally raising many questions regarding traditional agriculture expressed in
many responsa books filled with questions sent by Jews of Gaza.

The Responsa of Rabbi David Ben-Zimrah, and Rabbi Hayim Yosef David Azoulay,
the chief Rabbi of the entire Levant region, all have specifically addressed the
the numerous questions dealing with Jewish farmers of Gaza.

It was as well significant Jewish cultural center, with the songs of Rabbi Yisrael Nagara,
the chief Rabbi of Gaza, became the traditional anthems of Jewish harvest festivals.

There's not a plot of land in the entire country that wasn't a Jewish farm.

Why do you think Muslims love to boast so much about alleged deeds,
but never actually have the guts to reveal the Ottoman archives...?


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## P F Tinmore (Aug 4, 2020)

rylah said:


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You don't make any sense. Why were there many hundreds of non Jewish farm villages depopulated and bulldozed on 1948?


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## P F Tinmore (Aug 4, 2020)

Another one.

Five Arab armies attacked Israel in 1948.


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## Toddsterpatriot (Aug 4, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> Another one.
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> Five Arab armies attacked Israel in 1948.



Too disorganized to be called armies?


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## P F Tinmore (Aug 4, 2020)

Toddsterpatriot said:


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Indeed it was not much of a war but Israel used it as an excuse to steal land.


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## Toddsterpatriot (Aug 4, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


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5 disorganized mobs lose to Israel. 
Not the last time disorganized Muslims will lose, eh?


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## P F Tinmore (Aug 4, 2020)

Toddsterpatriot said:


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Which leads us to another Israeli lie.

The five Arab armies lost to Israel.


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## Toddsterpatriot (Aug 4, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


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What's the opposite of defeated Israel?


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## TheParser (Aug 4, 2020)

In this imperfect world, one has to choose the lesser evil.

That is why I hope to vote for President Trump.

I know that Israel is no angel.

But neither is Palestine.

So I am forced to "vote" for Israel as the lesser evil when push comes to shove.

As I see it, Israel has done more for the world (such as developing life-saving medical devices)  than Palestine. And  Gaza has been wrong to fire missiles into Israel,  no matter how frustrated it has been with Israel's embargo.


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## P F Tinmore (Aug 4, 2020)

Toddsterpatriot said:


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Duck!


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## Toddsterpatriot (Aug 4, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


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Darn ducks, beating the disorganized Muslim rabble.....over and over and over.

So how big is the country of Palestine going to be?

Lichtenstein? Smaller?


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## AzogtheDefiler (Aug 4, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> Let's start at the beginning.
> 
> A land without people for a people without land.


Palestine was always Israel.



The land was called Judea, 12 tribes of Israel. Jerusalem was the capital. This was the case long before Islam was even a thought.
Jews won the land by conquest. First by David and then by Joshua.
Jews primary opponents were the Philistines.
Romans came in and conquered Judea. They renamed the land Palestine as an insult because the Jews biggest historical rival were the Philistines. Are you keeping up? Judea was renamed Palestine. This was 500+ years before Islam. Still keeping up?
After multiple conquests of the land from Romans to the Ottoman Empire to the British the Jews retook the land post WW2. Ever see the movie Exodus? It became apparent to the British that it was no longer economically feasible to hold the land. If you didn't see Exodus, you likely saw Avatar. Jews were the blue natives. So Israel is formed in 1947 and Jews and Arabs invited to live there in peace.
Arab nations attack Israel in 1948 and get their asses kicked so Israel assumes more land. Still no "Palestine" or "Palestinians"
Yassir Arafat, an Egyptian and Jew hater forms the the PLO and starts calling people "Palestinians" this is *1964.*
You leftist idiots still keeping up? Good. Another war takes place in 1967 and Arabs lose again.
Many Jews now live in Israel. Their ancient homeland. Judaism is a religion and a culture. Even those who don't believe in God may be Jews based on blood lines and culture. Yes. The reason we break the glass when we get married is because of the shattering of our homeland and our promise to return, which we did.
Israel is the former Judea. NOT PALESTINE. That was an insult given by the conquering Romans. So stop with this bullshit that it was someone else's land. It wasn't. It was always Judea. It was always the Jews homeland. If you want it back then take it by force and see how that works out for you. *Oh and the US doesn't give $$ to Israel it gives Israel CREDIT for producing weaponry for Israel that Israel buys from US companies.*


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## AzogtheDefiler (Aug 4, 2020)

Sunni Man said:


> rylah said:
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> > Oh, then it's game over for all. Israel is a country too small to be pressured to the brink, Is hurt pride worth all you turning into frozen camel fossils in a glass?
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My prediction is that Islam will implode.


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## rylah (Aug 5, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> rylah said:
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Not sure what you mean by "non-Jewish farm",
can you show me a village, that wasn't a Jewish farm prior to Arab conquest?

'Cause suspiciously all these "non-Jewish" farms,
just like the Harit al-Yahood neighborhood in Gaza,
still bear names that clearly trace to their Hebrew origin.


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## Picaro (Aug 5, 2020)

Anathema said:


> P F Tinmore said:
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Reading through the tangled modern history of the issues most of the 'blame' belongs on Britain for its fecklessness re their promises in WW I era, contradictory promises to both 'sides', along with Kemal's genocidal mania and his revision of the Ottoman policies inviting and encouraging the Russian aliyahs, British financial investment in the region in developing citrus fruit exporting businesses, etc., trying to rebuild a productive population and tax base there after the ravages of the civil war with Egypt in the 1840's. The place was indeed empty, with the majority of the Arab population hiding in the hills dodging tax collectors and the draft and thus not capable of organizing any political polities nor interested in doing that.

Basically it's just typical Arab jealousy of others, especially 'infidels', doing a lot better than they are with the same resources available. Islam is essentially a bandit culture political ideology masquerading as a 'religion', and is always going to be at war with somebody, including among themselves as long as any of their neighbors have more wealth and stuff to steal than they do. These days it's Jews and the Sunni-Shia civil war in the ME, in the east it's the Evul Hindu Indians who need plundering and extermination, in Africa it's the Evul Nigerians, in the Pacific it's the evul Fillipinos and Chinese Malay who are making Allah look like a bad provider. There is no such thing in Islam that resembles the WASP work ethic and freedoms to grow that also so greatly benefited eastern Jewish immigrants to the U.S., who also had a respect for education, increasingly secular since the late 1700's and easily adapted to such an ethic. Stealing, looting, and extortion are what is holy in Islam.

Most of the early western Zionists were not religious Zionists, many were Labor populists or secular, recognizing a need for a 'safe space' for Jews, and as a tribe they do indeed have a claim to the area as a tribal homeland, and at this point in history it so happens that a lot of Protestant evangelicals, coreligionists with the Orthodox and Ultra-Orthodox, whether those and the secular types like it or not being irrelevancies, from the U.S. also are Zionists and politically powerful enough at the moment to do something about it.

Given the decline of Christian sect populations in the U.S. in general, that isn't a given any more, so maybe Israelis should be thinking in terms of getting rid of their main enemies while they still can instead of delaying the inevitable.


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## Picaro (Aug 5, 2020)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> P F Tinmore said:
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Toddsterpatriot said:


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Even led by experienced British Generals they degenerated into mobs of looters, robbing and raping their fellow Arabs; only the Jordanian units kept some semblance of an army. The imaginary 'palestinians' of course fled, and then sniveled about how their 'brothers' weren't doing near enough to save 'their land' from da evul joos. Naturally almost none signed up when the King of Jordan told them if they were so passionate about that they should line up at his army recruiting offices. They never seemed to think it was really 'their land'.


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## John T. Ford (Aug 5, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> Let's start at the beginning.
> 
> A land without people for a people without land.


When do we get to the Holocaust Deniers?


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## P F Tinmore (Aug 5, 2020)

Toddsterpatriot said:


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The lie is that the Arab armies lost to Israel in 1948.

The fighting ended by the UN Security Council calling for an armistice. Nobody lost that war.


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## Toddsterpatriot (Aug 5, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


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*The lie is that the Arab armies lost to Israel in 1948. *

Did they win?


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## toastman (Aug 6, 2020)

Sunni Man said:


> Anathema said:
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> > Let me say this... the people who you claim the land was stolen from have routinely gotten their asses kicked every time they’ve tried to rise up since 1948.
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Yawn.. we’ve been hearing that for years Sunni Troll. But all that happens  is that Israel  goes uphill while Islam and Arab shithole countries are going down the shitter.  Muslim scum failed at destroying Israel with conventional warfare, they failed with terrorism and they failed with BDS.   The terrorist Muslims simply can’t touch Israel.


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## toastman (Aug 6, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


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						1948 Arab–Israeli War - Wikipedia
					






					en.m.wikipedia.org
				




Israeli victory 
Palestinian defeat 

You do know how to read, right Tinny?


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## Toddsterpatriot (Aug 6, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


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*The fighting ended by the UN Security Council calling for an armistice.*

We agree, the Arabs didn't win and Israel didn't lose.


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## P F Tinmore (Aug 6, 2020)

Toddsterpatriot said:


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The point is that the 5 Arab countries did not lose.

What did Lebanon lose?
What did Syria lose?
What did Jordan lose?
What did Iraq lose?
What did Egypt lose?

What?


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## rylah (Aug 6, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


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Are you saying loosing is only if they lost land?

Indeed Arabs aren't loosers...
for that they had to actually own something.

So they didn't loose,
they're just a bunch of whiny goat lovers.


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## Toddsterpatriot (Aug 6, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


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*The point is that the 5 Arab countries did not lose. *

Excellent point.
What was the size of Israel the day they declared independence?
The size of Israel the day after the UN called for an armistice?


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## Hollie (Aug 6, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> The point is that the 5 Arab countries did not lose.



5 Arab armies losing suggests that they, you know, lost.


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## P F Tinmore (Aug 6, 2020)

Toddsterpatriot said:


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Is deflection all you got?


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## Toddsterpatriot (Aug 6, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


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You said nobody lost.
Can you prove it by the size of Israel before and after?


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## P F Tinmore (Aug 6, 2020)

Toddsterpatriot said:


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Nobody knows. What are Israel's defined borders?


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## Toddsterpatriot (Aug 6, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


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Was the green area Israel on Independence Day?


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## rylah (Aug 6, 2020)

rylah said:


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Yap, there won't an answer...
but a lot of big ass claim about "lies".

Another fraud just like most of you Jihadi camel lovers.


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## P F Tinmore (Aug 6, 2020)

Toddsterpatriot said:


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Those borders never happened.


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## Toddsterpatriot (Aug 6, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> Those borders never happened.



What were the borders after the armistice?


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## rylah (Aug 6, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


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Depends on how far a Jihadi khmar
can run away on a camel with his tail between legs?

Or how much he desires those virgins?

Your help is appreciated,
keep on the good work infidel


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## P F Tinmore (Aug 6, 2020)

Toddsterpatriot said:


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Has Israel ever declared its borders?


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## rylah (Aug 6, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


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*Once upon a time, Arabs thought they were 'real man'.
Until they decided to fight a bunch of former Dhimmis...*




















*The story of the Arab 'NOT-loosing'...*


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## Toddsterpatriot (Aug 6, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


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All the time.


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## P F Tinmore (Aug 6, 2020)

Toddsterpatriot said:


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Got a map?


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## Toddsterpatriot (Aug 6, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


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Tons.


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## RoccoR (Aug 6, 2020)

RE:   Israel's Lies        
⁜→ P F Tinmore, et al,

*BLUF*: You've been told this many many times. I don't understand what your cognitive recognition problem is based upon.



P F Tinmore said:


> Has Israel ever declared its borders?


*(COMMENT)*

You know, as well as I know, the borders pertain to Israel _(as far as the West Bank and Gaza Strip are concerned)_ have been established by and accepted by parties to the Treaties.
​◈  EGYPT and ISRAEL Treaty of Peace1 • Signed at Washington on 26 March 1979 • UN Treaty Series Volume 1136, 1-17813​
◈  JORDAN and ISRAEL Treaty of Peace • Signed 26 October 1994 • UN Treaty Series Volume 2042, 1-35325​
Each of the treaties was executed under the Vienna Convention to the Law on Treaties (1969 - EIF:1980) in a manner consistent with the Treaty Series Registry,  within the public domain.



Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## Hollie (Aug 6, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> Toddsterpatriot said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...


Where a lot of dead islamics have tried to cross the border.


----------



## Hollie (Aug 6, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> Toddsterpatriot said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...


Yes.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Aug 6, 2020)

RoccoR said:


> RE:   Israel's Lies
> ⁜→ P F Tinmore, et al,
> 
> *BLUF*: You've been told this many many times. I don't understand what your cognitive recognition problem is based upon.
> ...


That reminds me of a question that you always duck.


----------



## Hollie (Aug 7, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > RE:   Israel's Lies
> ...


That reminds me of a conspiracy theory you always press.


----------



## RoccoR (Aug 7, 2020)

RE:   Israel's Lies       
⁜→ P F Tinmore, et al,

*BLUF*: Don't keep me in suspense. 



P F Tinmore said:


> That reminds me of a question that you always duck.


*(QUESTION)*

What is the question I always duck?




Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## P F Tinmore (Aug 7, 2020)

RoccoR said:


> RE:   Israel's Lies
> ⁜→ P F Tinmore, et al,
> 
> *BLUF*: Don't keep me in suspense.
> ...


In the 1949 UN Armistice Agreements, Palestine is mentioned many times. Israel is not mentioned. Palestine's international borders are referenced. No borders are mentioned.for Israel. Two times the Negev is called Palestine. 

Now, how can Israel claim borders on that land?


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Aug 7, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > RE:   Israel's Lies
> ...



*In the 1949 UN Armistice Agreements, Palestine is mentioned many times. Israel is not mentioned. Palestine's international borders are referenced. No borders are mentioned.for Israel.  *

Who signed the agreements on Palastine's behalf?
Post the names.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Aug 7, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> Toddsterpatriot said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



Don't be so hard on yourself.

No list of signatories? LOL!


----------



## P F Tinmore (Aug 7, 2020)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Toddsterpatriot said:
> ...


Of course not. The Armistice Agreements only applied to military forces.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Aug 7, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> Toddsterpatriot said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



Agreements that no one signed? Are you sure?


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Aug 7, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > RE:   Israel's Lies
> ...



*In the 1949 UN Armistice Agreements, Palestine is mentioned many times. Israel is not mentioned. *

Liar!!!















__





						S/1264/Corr.1 of 23 February 1949
					





					web.archive.org


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Aug 7, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > RE:   Israel's Lies
> ...



*In the 1949 UN Armistice Agreements, Palestine is mentioned many times. Israel is not mentioned. *

Moron!!








__





						S/1296 of 23 March 1949
					





					web.archive.org


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Aug 7, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > RE:   Israel's Lies
> ...



*In the 1949 UN Armistice Agreements, Palestine is mentioned many times. Israel is not mentioned.*

Clown!















						United Nations Maintenance Page
					






					unispal.un.org


----------



## P F Tinmore (Aug 7, 2020)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > RoccoR said:
> ...


Egyptian and Israeli are not places.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Aug 7, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> Toddsterpatriot said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



*Egyptian and Israeli are not places.*

Egyptian: a native of ancient or modern Egypt, or a person of Egyptian descent.

Israeli: a native or inhabitant of Israel, or a person of Israeli descent.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Aug 7, 2020)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Toddsterpatriot said:
> ...


There are no Israelis.

Domestic Israeli law does not recognize an Israeli nationality. 









						Israeli citizenship law - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Aug 7, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> Toddsterpatriot said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...


----------



## P F Tinmore (Aug 7, 2020)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Toddsterpatriot said:
> ...


That is just a letter. You will not find "Israel" in the UN Armistice Agreements.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Aug 7, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> Toddsterpatriot said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



A letter from the mediator. Signed by the parties, one of which was Israel.

None of the parties were Palestine.

Feel free to post the Agreements.


----------



## toastman (Aug 7, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> Toddsterpatriot said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...


Israel has internationally recognized borders. Would you like a link ?


----------



## toastman (Aug 7, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > RE:   Israel's Lies
> ...


You keep ducking the fact that we keep posting links that clearly prove Israel has borders . What else do you need ?


----------



## Hollie (Aug 7, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> Toddsterpatriot said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



It seems you’re wrong, as usual. 



			https://mfa.gov.il/mfa/aboutisrael/state/pages/acquisition%20of%20israeli%20nationality.aspx


----------



## P F Tinmore (Aug 7, 2020)

Hollie said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Toddsterpatriot said:
> ...


OK, and?


----------



## P F Tinmore (Aug 7, 2020)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Toddsterpatriot said:
> ...





Toddsterpatriot said:


> Feel free to post the Agreements.







__





						The Avalon Project : Egyptian-Israeli General Armistice Agreement, February 24, 1949
					





					avalon.law.yale.edu
				








__





						The Avalon Project : Lebanese-Israeli General Armistice Agreement, March 23, 1949
					





					avalon.law.yale.edu
				






			The Avalon Project : Jordanian-Israeli General Armistice Agreement, April 3, 1949
		






__





						The Avalon Project : Lebanese-Israeli General Armistice Agreement, March 23, 1949
					





					avalon.law.yale.edu


----------



## Hollie (Aug 7, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...


And, you missed the part that refutes your specious claim.


----------



## toastman (Aug 7, 2020)

Tinmore, don’t you get tired of having your ridiculous claims refuted? Every time you make a claim , we post links to refute them. Yet you don’t post ANYTHING to back up your crap....
Israel has borders .. Israelis are natives of Israel. If you believe otherwise, post valid claims with valid links.


----------



## toastman (Aug 7, 2020)

toastman said:


> Tinmore, don’t you get tired of having your ridiculous claims refuted? Every time you make a claim , we post links to refute them. Yet you don’t post ANYTHING to back up your crap....
> Israel has borders .. Israelis are natives of Israel. If you believe otherwise, post valid claims with valid links.


----------



## RoccoR (Aug 7, 2020)

RE:   Israel's Lies       
⁜→ P F Tinmore, et al,

*BLUF*: Don't let the name confuse you with sovereignty or territorial association. The description of "Palestine" comes from the Palestine Order in Council.



P F Tinmore said:


> In the 1949 UN Armistice Agreements, Palestine is mentioned many times. Israel is not mentioned. Palestine's international borders are referenced. No borders are mentioned.for Israel. Two times the Negev is called Palestine.
> 
> Now, how can Israel claim borders on that land?


*(COMMENT)*

The UN Armistice Agreements (with Jordan and Egypt) were in force only until the permanent Peace Treaties were established.  Articles XII(2) in both agreements state:  "shall remain in force until a peaceful settlement between the Parties is achieved"

You cannot use something today, to invalidate the reality of the day, which was dissolved decades ago.

*(EPILOG)*

The Arab Palestinians, or the habitual inhabitants, had no organizational structure to place a claim of borders on their behalf.  Palestine was an "entity" created by the British Government for assuming responsibility and control over the territory.




Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## RoccoR (Aug 7, 2020)

RE:   Israel's Lies       
⁜→ P F Tinmore, et al,

*BLUF*: It is not for you to decide the content and meaning of Israeli Law. That is an internal domestic matter.



P F Tinmore said:


> There are no Israelis.
> 
> Domestic Israeli law does not recognize an Israeli nationality.​​
> 
> ...


*(COMMENT)*

Very important.  Read it closely.



			
				Chapter I • Article 2(7) • UN Charter said:
			
		

> Nothing contained in the present Charter shall authorize the United Nations to intervene in matters which are essentially within the domestic jurisdiction of any state or shall require the Members to submit such matters to settlement under the present Charter; but this principle shall not prejudice the application of enforcement measures under Chapter Vll.



The application of the concepts pertaining to "nationality" and "citizenship" in Israel is a matter for the Israelis to apply.  Not you.




Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Aug 7, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> Toddsterpatriot said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



And who were the signers?


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Aug 7, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> Toddsterpatriot said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...















						Seventy Years since the “First Hudna”: The Legacy of the Rhodes Agreements
					

Michael Milshtein explores the legacy of the 1949 Rhodes armistice agreement, and what that legacy may mean for the future of Israel's relations with the Arab world.




					dayan.org
				




Who is this Moshe Dayan guy?


----------



## P F Tinmore (Aug 8, 2020)

RoccoR said:


> RE:   Israel's Lies
> ⁜→ P F Tinmore, et al,
> 
> *BLUF*: Don't let the name confuse you with sovereignty or territorial association. The description of "Palestine" comes from the Palestine Order in Council.
> ...


Keep dancing, Rocco. That again ducks my question.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Aug 8, 2020)

RoccoR said:


> RE:   Israel's Lies
> ⁜→ P F Tinmore, et al,
> 
> *BLUF*: It is not for you to decide the content and meaning of Israeli Law. That is an internal domestic matter.
> ...


I just said what they apply.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Aug 8, 2020)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Toddsterpatriot said:
> ...


Typical Israeli crook.


----------



## Hollie (Aug 8, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > RE:   Israel's Lies
> ...


You again ducked a response.


----------



## Street Juice (Aug 8, 2020)

Andylusion said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> > The zionist Israeli pukes have created a gigantic lie to explain how their theft of other people's land wasn't really theft.  ...
> ...





fncceo said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Israel is fertile ground.
> ...


That's not true. A Palestinian friend used to describe his grandfathers olive groves.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Aug 8, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> Toddsterpatriot said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



No Palestinians signing those agreements, eh?


----------



## Andylusion (Aug 8, 2020)

Street Juice said:


> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> > Sunni Man said:
> ...





That above... did not happen under the Arabs.  The Bible says that the Jews will make the desert bloom.  And it did.

Was there an isolated Olive grove somewhere?  Sure.   Keep in mind, that this was historic Jewish lands, stolen by Romans, exiled around the world, decimated by the Ottomans, and then returned by divine providence today.

Again, there has never been a time since King David, that Jews have not lived in the land of Israel.

Interestingly, there are a number of Sheiks that admit that Islam supports Israel.  Because of course, it does.





__





						The Qur'an and the Land of Israel
					





					www.templemount.org
				




My personal favorite, direct from the Qur'an

If God had willed, He would have made you one nation; but that He may try you in what has come to you. So be you forward in good works; unto God shall you return.… (5:54)

Hmmm... seems like G-d willed it.   Given it happened.


----------



## Sunni Man (Aug 8, 2020)

Andylusion said:


> My personal favorite, direct from the Qur'an. If God had willed, He would have made you one nation; but that He may try you in what has come to you. So be you forward in good works; unto God shall you return.… (5:54) Hmmm... seems like G-d willed it. Given it happened.


Your copy & paste failed you.  ... 
Surah 5:54 doesn't say anything like that.


----------



## Andylusion (Aug 8, 2020)

Sunni Man said:


> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> > My personal favorite, direct from the Qur'an. If God had willed, He would have made you one nation; but that He may try you in what has come to you. So be you forward in good works; unto God shall you return.… (5:54) Hmmm... seems like G-d willed it. Given it happened.
> ...


Correct.  I meant 5:48.  My fault.


----------



## Street Juice (Aug 9, 2020)

Andylusion said:


> Street Juice said:
> 
> 
> > Andylusion said:
> ...





> Again, there has never been a time since King David, that Jews have not lived in the land of Israel.



There has never been a time since the US became a country that Jews have not lived in New York State. Does that give them the right to dispossess everyone else, drive them into a concentration camp Gaza II, and establish an apartheid state in NY? Hmm..now that I think about it...



> Hmmm... seems like G-d willed it.   Given it happened.



Given the Romans conquered the Jews, seems like God willed that, too.


----------



## fncceo (Aug 9, 2020)

Street Juice said:


> Does that give them the right to dispossess everyone else, drive them into a concentration camp Gaza II, and establish an apartheid state in NY?



Finally!  You come up with a *good *idea.

Broken clock syndrome.


----------



## Street Juice (Aug 9, 2020)

fncceo said:


> Street Juice said:
> 
> 
> > Does that give them the right to dispossess everyone else, drive them into a concentration camp Gaza II, and establish an apartheid state in NY?
> ...


Broken clock syndrome? Like every twelve hours Jews dispossess another people? Start another war? Commit another genocide? Assassinate another president? Stage another terrorist attack? Subvert another authority? Launch another revolution? Just generally make themselves insufferable?


----------



## fncceo (Aug 9, 2020)

Street Juice said:


> fncceo said:
> 
> 
> > Street Juice said:
> ...



Watch how you talk to your betters.  We'll raise the rent on your trailer again.


----------



## rylah (Aug 9, 2020)

Street Juice said:


> fncceo said:
> 
> 
> > Street Juice said:
> ...



Give me a break, you have cities in US with higher homicide rate in one decade,
than all casualties in the Arab-Israeli wars in 70+ years combined.






Be careful with what you call _'insufferable'_,
might find yourself fit that category to the t.


----------



## Street Juice (Aug 9, 2020)

fncceo said:


> Watch how you talk to your betters.  We'll raise the rent on your trailer again.


Broken record. You need new material.

Maybe take a break and go slaughter-viewing. That seems to cheer you people up.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Aug 9, 2020)

Street Juice said:


> fncceo said:
> 
> 
> > Street Juice said:
> ...







Show me on this doll where the Jew touched you.


----------



## Andylusion (Aug 9, 2020)

Street Juice said:


> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> > Street Juice said:
> ...



Were the Jews living in New York 2,000 years ago?  Was New York their ancient homeland for thousands of years?  Was New York promised to the Jews in the Bible?

*Given the Romans conquered the Jews, seems like God willed that, too.*

Um.....  Yeah.   He did.  That is exactly what G-d said would happen in Torah.  That's what the prophets said would happen.   That's even what Jesus himself said would happen.   *AND*.... the regathering was predicted in Isaiah 11, and other places.

So the answer is..... yes.   G-d willed that the Romans conquer Israel as punishment for breaking the promise made in the Torah, the book of Deuteronomy.

Everything that has happened to the Jews, and to the land of Israel, has happened exactly as G-d said it would, as predicted in the Bible.  Everything.


----------



## toastman (Aug 9, 2020)

Here’s is how Tinmore works. After a poster, usually Rocco, completely dismantles Tinmores so called ‘argument’, Tinmore then asks some ridiculous question that cannot be answered or is irrelevant to the argument. Once you cannot answer that question, Tinmore claims he won the argument and accuses you of dancing around the question.


----------



## Sunni Man (Aug 9, 2020)

toastman said:


> Here’s is how Tinmore works. After a poster, usually Rocco, completely dismantles Tinmores so called ‘argument’, Tinmore then asks some ridiculous question that cannot be answered or is irrelevant to the argument. Once you cannot answer that question, Tinmore claims he won the argument and accuses you of dancing around the question.


Actually, that's your M.O., not Tinmores.  ...


----------



## toastman (Aug 9, 2020)

Sunni Man said:


> toastman said:
> 
> 
> > Here’s is how Tinmore works. After a poster, usually Rocco, completely dismantles Tinmores so called ‘argument’, Tinmore then asks some ridiculous question that cannot be answered or is irrelevant to the argument. Once you cannot answer that question, Tinmore claims he won the argument and accuses you of dancing around the question.
> ...


Cool. Please show me an example then Sunni Troll


----------



## Street Juice (Aug 11, 2020)

Andylusion said:


> Street Juice said:
> 
> 
> > Andylusion said:
> ...


Since you like Deuteronomy:



			World's Only Fun!damentalator!


----------



## Street Juice (Aug 11, 2020)

rylah said:


> Street Juice said:
> 
> 
> > fncceo said:
> ...


Your little chart missed the Jewish-Bolshevik genocidal war against Russian Christians. 66 million dead. I fixed it for by adding the blue line, to scale.


----------



## Picaro (Aug 11, 2020)

Street Juice said:


> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> > Street Juice said:
> ...



Nobody would mind if they took over Queens or the Bronx.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Aug 11, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> Toddsterpatriot said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...


Let's get back to Israel's two handed whopper. The Arab armies did not lose the 1948 war.

Are you going to believe legal UN documents or Israel's worldwide bullshit machine?


----------



## Hollie (Aug 11, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Toddsterpatriot said:
> ...


We can believe the results of the Arab-Moslem failure.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Aug 11, 2020)

Hollie said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...


Is deflection all you got?

Sad.


----------



## RoccoR (Aug 11, 2020)

RE:   Israel's Lies       
⁜→ P F Tinmore, Hollie, et al,

*BLUF*: Well, from a myopic perspective, you have a small point made here. But in terms of the 1948 War of Independence, it was not over until an international agreement was _(or will be)_ concluded _(between Israel and the Arab League States)_ in written form and governed by international law, whether embodied in a single instrument or in two or more related instruments and whatever its particular designation; 



P F Tinmore said:


> The point is that the 5 Arab countries did not lose.
> 
> What did Lebanon lose?
> What did Syria lose?
> ...


*(COMMENT)*

As I've said before, in the post WWII era, the terms "win" or "lose" are usually not applicable.  But, 

◈  *IF* you want to look at it in those terms, 

(Ω)  *THEN* the Arab League Forces gained not Territory and lost ≈10,000 Killed in Action.​(Ω)  *THEN:*  Israeli Forces successfully defended their territory and the Arab League Forces actually lost ground.​✦  By 1967, the Egyptians had lost control of the entire Sinai and the Egyptian Army surrendered.​◇  Largely - through diplomatic efforts, the Sinai and the Egyptian 3d Army were released back to Egyptian control.​✦  By 1979, the Egyptian Treaty with Israel made permanent the international boundary between Egypt and the former mandated territory of Palestine as the permanent boundary between Egypt and Israel. (Without Prejudice to the Palestinians.)​✦  By 1988, the Jordanian sovereignty over the West Bank and Jerusalem had been abandon into the hands of the Isreal, which already had effective control over the territory.​✦ By 1994, the Jordanian Treaty with Israel the international boundary between Jordan and Israel was established to the boundary definition under the former Mandate. (Without Prejudice to the Palestinians.) ​✦  By 2000, Lebanon reaffirmed the international boundary between Israel and Lebanon was the same as the 1923 boundary - was meticulously retraced in 1949.​(Ω)  The governments of Syria and Iraq are not the same government as in the 1948 War.  ​​◈  In 1948, in a Cable from King Abdullah, HM explained that Jordan was compelled to enter Palestine to protect unarmed Arabs against massacres similar to those of Deir Yasin.  However, the actions of the Jordanian Forces and the Egyptian Forces suggest that the primary purpose of the entry was to secure land for sovereign territorial expansion.

◈  Whatever reason you want to ascribe to, by the outcomes observed today, the entry of Arab League Forces accomplished nothing except to suffer casualties _(civilian and military)_. 

◈  So your argument on this point is damn weak. 
​


P F Tinmore said:


> Let's get back to Israel's two handed whopper. The Arab armies did not lose the 1948 war.
> 
> Are you going to believe legal UN documents or Israel's worldwide bullshit machine?


*(COMMENT)*

Like so many other worldwide bullshit machines of today, the pro-Arab Palestinians have their complement.  But let's invert the question:  Between the outbreak of hostilities in 1948 and the end of the conflict with the adjacent forces in the shadow of the post-1973 Yom Kipper War, "what did Israel lose?"  If Israel successfully defends and drives out hostile Arab League Forces, and ends-up with control of the territory (West Bank, Gaza Strip, and Jerusalem) how is that a loss?  And if, in your myopic view of "win-lose" yardstick, who wins? 

Our friend Hollie actually makes a sarcastic point - yet valid. 




Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## P F Tinmore (Aug 11, 2020)

RoccoR said:


> RE:   Israel's Lies
> ⁜→ P F Tinmore, Hollie, et al,
> 
> *BLUF*: Well, from a myopic perspective, you have a small point made here. But in terms of the 1948 War of Independence, it was not over until an international agreement was _(or will be)_ concluded _(between Israel and the Arab League States)_ in written form and governed by international law, whether embodied in a single instrument or in two or more related instruments and whatever its particular designation;
> ...


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Aug 11, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Toddsterpatriot said:
> ...



*The Arab armies did not lose the 1948 war. *

Looking at how much bigger Israel was after the 1948 war, compared to before, it's clear Israel won.

*Are you going to believe legal UN documents *

The ones signed by Israelis? Sure. And I'm going to believe maps. "Palestine" keeps getting smaller.

Tick-tock.


----------



## Hollie (Aug 11, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...


Denial as a tactic won't help you.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Aug 11, 2020)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...


We should change the title of this thread to deflection.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Aug 11, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> We should change the title of this thread to deflection.



We should call it, "Why are Palestinians such whiney losers?"


----------



## toastman (Aug 11, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Toddsterpatriot said:
> ...



Let’s go over your claim step by step:

-You claimed Israel did not win the 1948 Arab-Israeli war
-I posted links that CLEARLY state that Israel DID win the 1948 Arab-Israeli war
-You continue to post your claim without any evidence.


----------



## toastman (Aug 11, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > RE:   Israel's Lies
> ...


Riff posts documented facts, you post, well , emojis. How mature Tinmore


----------



## P F Tinmore (Aug 11, 2020)

toastman said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...


Oh really?

What did Israel win from:
Lebanon?
Syria?
Iraq?
Jordan?
Egypt?


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Aug 11, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> What did Israel win from:
> Lebanon?
> Syria?
> Iraq?
> ...



Besides most of the battles? LOL!


----------



## toastman (Aug 11, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> toastman said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



Show me a link where it says that Israel has to ‘win’ something from other countries in order to win the war.

But as usual, you are asking he wrong question. Ask this:
What were Israel’s goals for the wear and didn’t they meet them ?
How about Iraq, Jordan, Egypt, Syria and and Lebanon??
Not to mention, you have yet to post a link backing up your claim , while I have posted several.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Aug 11, 2020)

toastman said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > toastman said:
> ...





toastman said:


> Show me a link where it says that Israel has to ‘win’ something from other countries in order to win the war.


So, Israel didn't win anything.

I have said that for years.


----------



## toastman (Aug 11, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> toastman said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...


Nice duck Tinmore. I asked you to provide proof that a country has to ‘win something’ in order to win a war and I asked you to provide a link that clearly states that’s Israel did not win the war. You have failed to do both.
Keep dancing around my questions Tinmore.


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## Toddsterpatriot (Aug 11, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> toastman said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



*So, Israel didn't win anything. *

Except all the territory they won.
And the ass-kicking they gave the Arab armies.


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## toastman (Aug 11, 2020)

1948 Arab–Israeli War - Wikipedia
					






					en.m.wikipedia.org
				




Result: Israeli victory 
Palestinian-Arab defeat 

You’re welcome Tinny


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## P F Tinmore (Aug 11, 2020)

toastman said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > toastman said:
> ...





toastman said:


> I asked you to provide proof that a country has to ‘win something’ in order to win a war


Israel didn't win anything in the 1948 war.


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## Toddsterpatriot (Aug 11, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> Israel didn't win anything in the 1948 war.



Prove it.
Post a map of Israel before the war and after the war.
We'll compare territory.


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## toastman (Aug 12, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> toastman said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...


From the same link I provided:

“Israel keeps the area allotted to it by the partition plan and captures 60% of the area allotted to the Arab state”

Also, I have repeatedly asked you for links, which you have yet to provide.


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## P F Tinmore (Aug 12, 2020)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > toastman said:
> ...


How can Israel win territory when it didn't win the war?

And besides, it is illegal to acquire territory through the threat or use of force.


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## toastman (Aug 12, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> Toddsterpatriot said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...


Are you blind? Did you not read the link I provided ??  

Israel captured 60% of the land allotted to the Arab state. What the hell is the matter with you ?????


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## P F Tinmore (Aug 12, 2020)

toastman said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > toastman said:
> ...





toastman said:


> I asked you to provide a link that clearly states that’s Israel did not win the war.


I have. You need to keep up.


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## P F Tinmore (Aug 12, 2020)

toastman said:


> “Israel keeps the area allotted to it by the partition plan and captures 60% of the area allotted to the Arab state”


The partition plan was never implemented. So none of that territory was ever transferred to Israel.

Military conquest (capture) of territory is illegal.


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## toastman (Aug 12, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> toastman said:
> 
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You posted a link that proves Israel lost the war?? You’re full of shit


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## toastman (Aug 12, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> toastman said:
> 
> 
> > “Israel keeps the area allotted to it by the partition plan and captures 60% of the area allotted to the Arab state”
> ...


Who said anything about being transferred? You asked what Israel won, I responded.
You need to learn how to accept that you’re wrong. Israel won the war. Don’t like it? Go cry somewhere else..


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## P F Tinmore (Aug 12, 2020)

toastman said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
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> > toastman said:
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So, who did Israel win it from?
Lebanon?
Syria?
Iraq?
Jordan?
Egypt?
That is everyone in the 1948 war.


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## Hollie (Aug 12, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> toastman said:
> 
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> > P F Tinmore said:
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A roll call of the Islamist losers.


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## Toddsterpatriot (Aug 12, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> How can Israel win territory when it didn't win the war?


*How can Israel win territory when it didn't win the war?*

How did it not win the war if it won territory and the Arab armies ran away defeated?

*And besides, it is illegal to acquire territory through the threat or use of force. *

LOL! Maybe you should cry to your mommy?

She'll get back the land for you that Israel acquired every time they beat Arab armies.


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## Toddsterpatriot (Aug 12, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> toastman said:
> 
> 
> > “Israel keeps the area allotted to it by the partition plan and captures 60% of the area allotted to the Arab state”
> ...



*The partition plan was never implemented. *

No kidding. And how'd that work out for the "Palestinians"?

Their "country" is getting smaller and smaller and smaller.

*Military conquest (capture) of territory is illegal.*

Maybe the UN can write them a ticket?


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## P F Tinmore (Aug 12, 2020)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > How can Israel win territory when it didn't win the war?
> ...


You are bouncing around like a football trying to avoid the issues.


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## RoccoR (Aug 12, 2020)

RE: Israel's Lies 
⁜→ P F Tinmore, et al,

*BLUF*: Whether or not the "Partition" was implemented has no bearing on the transfer of territory. There was never a requirement for such a transfer. I believe you are wrong in the entirety of your statement. And I explain WHY below.

BUT_! _ to alleviate your worries on this matter:

​


			
				Paragraph 5 • PALESTINE COMMISSION ADJOURNS SINE DIE said:
			
		

> During today's brief meeting, Dr. Eduardo Morgan (Panama) said that this resolution of the Assembly merely "relieves responsibility.  The Commission has not been dissolved.  In fact the resolution of last November 29 has been implemented."​*SOURCE*:  PAL/169 • 17 May 1948​​


​I am not sure what source you used, but I am quite sure that it did NOT SAY:  "Military conquest (capture) of territory is illegal."
The corollary to your mistake of fact is found in Article 5(3), A/RES/3314(XXIX) • 14 December 1974, as presented below (skip to the very last line).
​​


			
				The Editors of Encyclopaedia Britannica • Conquest • in international law • the acquisition of territory through force said:
			
		

> The logical corollary to the outlawry of aggressive war is the denial of legal recognition to the fruits of such war. This implication was contained in what became known as the Stimson Doctrine, enunciated in January 1932 by U.S. Secretary of State Henry L. Stimson and subsequently affirmed by the assembly of the League of Nations and by several conferences of the American republics. The Draft Declaration on Rights and Duties of States, formulated in 1949 by the International Law Commission of the UN, contained (in Article XI) the rule that states are obligated not to recognize territorial acquisitions *achieved by aggressive war.*​*SOURCE*: The Editors of Encyclopaedia Britannica"​​


​


			
				Paragraph 5 • PALESTINE COMMISSION ADJOURNS SINE DIE said:
			
		

> Article   11
> Every state has the duty to refrain from recognizing any territorial acquisition by another  Stateacting in violation of article   This text was derived from article  18  of the  Panamanian draft.
> *SOURCE*:  Page 288, Yearbook of the International Law Commission


[/indent]


toastman said:


> “Israel keeps the area allotted to it by the partition plan and captures 60% of the area allotted to the Arab state”





P F Tinmore said:


> The partition plan was never implemented. So none of that territory was ever transferred to Israel.
> 
> Military conquest (capture) of territory is illegal.


*(COMMENT)*

The territorial acquisition of land by most sovereignties in the immediate region was done on the "Right of Self-Determination."  The Israelis exercised the "Right of Self-Determination" by successfully defending their sovereignty "Against the Act of Aggression" by members of the Arab League.

​


			
				A/RES/3314(XXIX) • 14 December 1974 said:
			
		

> ​
> _Adopts _the following Definition of Aggression:
> _Article 1 A/RES/3314(XXIX) • 14 December 1974_​
> ​Aggression is the use of armed force by a State against the sovereignty, territorial integrity or political independence of another State, or in any other manner inconsistent with the Charter of the United Nations, as set out in this Definition.​*SOURCE*:  3314  (XXIX) Definition of Aggression​​


​
You cannot take a layman's interpretation and use it as "justification without fact-checking."  In the case of the Arab Palestinian - Israeli Conflict, the Aggressor was the elements of the Arab League.  They fired the fire shot.  This is critical in the determination:

The invasion or attack by the armed forces of a State of the territory of another State, or any military occupation, however  temporary,  resulting from such  invasion or attack, or any annexation by the use of force of the territory of another State or part thereof;​
◈  Israel did NOT invade the territory of another state.​◈  Israel did not fire the first shot.​◈  Israel did not annexation by the use of force of "the territory of another State."​​​_Article 5 A/RES/3314(XXIX) • 14 December 1974_​
​1.     No consideration of whatever nature, whether political, economic, military or otherwise, may serve as a justification for aggression.​2.    A  war of aggression is a crime against international peace. Aggression gives rise to international responsibility.​3.   No territorial acquisition or special advantage* resulting from aggression *is or shall be recognized as lawful.​


Most Respectfully,
R


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## P F Tinmore (Aug 12, 2020)

RoccoR said:


> ◈ Israel did NOT invade the territory of another state.◈ Israel did not fire the first shot.◈ Israel did not annexation by the use of force of "the territory of another State."


There you go back to Israeli talking points.


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## RoccoR (Aug 12, 2020)

RE: Israel's Lies 
⁜→ P F Tinmore, et al,

*BLUF*: Yes, that is a common theme with you.




RoccoR said:


> ◈ Israel did NOT invade the territory of another state.​◈ Israel did not fire the first shot.​◈ Israel did not annexation by the use of force of "the territory of another State."​





P F Tinmore said:


> There you go back to Israeli talking points.


*(COMMENT)*

I've not yet heard the Arab Palestinians take responsibility for any aspect of the conflict.



Most Respectfully,
R


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## Toddsterpatriot (Aug 12, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> Toddsterpatriot said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



The issue is that Arab armies invaded and lost and Israel held more territory after the invasion than before.

The big losers were the Arabs who decided they didn't want a state next to Israel.
How did that work out for the "Palestinians"?
Would they have been better off peacefully accepting half a loaf in 1948?
Will they end up with 20% of a loaf? Less? None?


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## P F Tinmore (Aug 12, 2020)

RoccoR said:


> RE: Israel's Lies
> ⁜→ P F Tinmore, et al,
> 
> *BLUF*: Yes, that is a common theme with you.
> ...


What is the Palestinian's responsibility?

It is not like they went to Europe and attack the Zionists.


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## P F Tinmore (Aug 12, 2020)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Toddsterpatriot said:
> ...





Toddsterpatriot said:


> Would they have been better off peacefully accepting half a loaf in 1948?


What would we say in the US if the UN wanted to give half of our country to colonial settlers?


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## Toddsterpatriot (Aug 12, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> Toddsterpatriot said:
> 
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> > P F Tinmore said:
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Palestine didn't belong to the Arabs after WWI.

Try again?


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## P F Tinmore (Aug 12, 2020)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Toddsterpatriot said:
> ...





Toddsterpatriot said:


> How did that work out for the "Palestinians"?


God question. The war is not over. Israel has won nothing yet.


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## P F Tinmore (Aug 12, 2020)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Toddsterpatriot said:
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Link?


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## Toddsterpatriot (Aug 12, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> Toddsterpatriot said:
> 
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> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



*The war is not over. Israel has won nothing yet. *

How did that work out for the "Palestinians" over the last 70 years?


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## P F Tinmore (Aug 12, 2020)

RoccoR said:


> RE: Israel's Lies
> ⁜→ P F Tinmore, et al,
> 
> *BLUF*: Yes, that is a common theme with you.
> ...


◈ Israel did not fire the first shot. 

So if somebody breaks into your house and you shoot him you are the aggressor because you fired the first shot?

That was a stupid thing to say.


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## P F Tinmore (Aug 12, 2020)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Toddsterpatriot said:
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I don't know. Too soon to tell.


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## Toddsterpatriot (Aug 12, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> Toddsterpatriot said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...


_After the collapse of the Ottoman Empire at the end of the First World War, the empire's remaining Arab provinces were assigned by the newly created League of Nations to Britain and France as mandates, with Britain taking responsibility for Iraq, Palestine, and Transjordan, and France taking responsibility for Lebanon and Syria._

Read more: Anticolonialism in Middle East - Ottoman Empire And The Mandate System - Century, Britain, Aden, and Provinces - JRank Articles Anticolonialism in Middle East - Ottoman Empire And The Mandate System


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## Toddsterpatriot (Aug 12, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> Toddsterpatriot said:
> 
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Too soon to tell the last 70 years?

DURR.


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## Toddsterpatriot (Aug 12, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > RE: Israel's Lies
> ...



*So if somebody breaks into your house and you shoot him you are the aggressor because you fired the first shot? *

You're right, the Arabs shouldn't have broken into Israel.

*That was a stupid thing to say.*

We're used to that, it's kinda your thing.


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## toastman (Aug 12, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> Toddsterpatriot said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...


You have some nerve asking other posters for links when I asked you several times to post links proving that Israel did not win the war .


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## toastman (Aug 12, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > RE: Israel's Lies
> ...


From the same link I provided:

The first deaths of the 1947–49 Palestine war occurred on 30 November 1947 during an ambush of two buses carrying Jews.


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## RoccoR (Aug 12, 2020)

RE: Israel's Lies 
⁜→ P F Tinmore, et al,

*BLUF*: Yes, that is a common theme with you.



P F Tinmore said:


> What is the Palestinian's responsibility?
> 
> It is not like they went to Europe and attack the Zionists.


*(COMMENT)*

Every "State" has the duty to refrain from intervention in the internal or external affairs of any other "State;" that includes the entirety.

Your comment • "It is not like they went to Europe and attack the Zionists" • is very said indeed.

"Zionists" focuses on a political movement that supports the security, territorial integrity, and preservation of the Jewish National Home.




Most Respectfully,
R


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## P F Tinmore (Aug 12, 2020)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Toddsterpatriot said:
> ...


The U.S. State Department Digest of International Law says that the terms of the Treaty of Lausanne provided for the  application  of  the  *principles  of  state  succession  to  the  "A"  Mandates. * The  Treaty  of  Versailles  (1920)  provisionally  recognized  the  former  Ottoman  communities  as  *independent  nations*.[23]  It  also  required  Germany  to recognize  the  disposition  of  the  former  Ottoman  territories  and  to  recognize  the  *new  states*  laid  down  within  their boundaries.[24]  The  terms  of  the  Treaty  of  Lausanne  required  the  *newly  created  states  that  acquired  the  territory* detached from the Ottoman Empire to pay annuities on the Ottoman public debt and to assume responsibility for the administration of concessions that had been granted by the Ottomans. The treaty also let the *States* acquire, without payment,  all  the  property  and  possessions  of  the  Ottoman  Empire  situated  within  their  territory.[25]  The  treaty provided that the League of Nations was responsible for establishing an arbital court to resolve disputes that might arise and stipulated that its decisions were final. 

A disagreement regarding the legal status and the portion of the annuities to be paid by the "A" mandates was settled when an Arbitrator ruled that some of the mandates contained *more than one State:*The  difficulty  arises  here  how  one  is  to  regard  the  Asiatic  countries  under  the  British  and  French mandates. Iraq is a Kingdom in regard to which Great Britain has undertaken responsibilities equivalentto  those  of  a  Mandatory  Power.  Under  the  British  mandate, * Palestine  and  Transjordan*  have  each  an entirely separate organisation. We are, therefore, *in the presence of three States* sufficiently separate to be considered as distinct Parties. France has received a single mandate from the Council of the League of  Nations,  but  in  the  countries  subject  to  that  mandate,  one  can  distinguish  two  distinct  States:  Syria and the Lebanon, each State possessing its own constitution and a nationality clearly different from theother. 









						mandate | Definition, System, & Facts
					

mandate,  an authorization granted by the League of Nations to a member nation to govern a former German or Turkish colony. The territory was called a mandated territory, or mandate. Following the defeat of Germany and Ottoman Turkey in World War I, their Asian and African possessions, which...



					www.britannica.com


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## Toddsterpatriot (Aug 12, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> Toddsterpatriot said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
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Thanks!
But I wasn't looking for more justification for the formation of Israel.


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## Hollie (Aug 12, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> Toddsterpatriot said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...


So... we’re back to your nonsense claim the Treaty of Lausanne created your imagined “country of Pal’istan”


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## P F Tinmore (Aug 12, 2020)

Hollie said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Toddsterpatriot said:
> ...


You can refute it if you like. This is a discussion board.


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## Hollie (Aug 12, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> Hollie said:
> 
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> > P F Tinmore said:
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That’s been done more than 200 times.


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## toastman (Aug 12, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
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Correct, this is a discussion board. So you have yet to refute my posts, which contain links, that proves Israel won the 1948 war and that Israel has internationally recognized borders ....


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## toastman (Aug 12, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...


Everything you post has been refuted.....multiple times, by multiple posters. 
You simply just cannot accept the truth


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## P F Tinmore (Aug 12, 2020)

toastman said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
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> > Hollie said:
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It is well known when Israel occupied Palestine and that is where it ends.


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## P F Tinmore (Aug 12, 2020)

toastman said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Hollie said:
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Nothing refutes the documents.


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## toastman (Aug 12, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> toastman said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...


You must really like dancing, because all you’re doing is dancing around my posts. 

Let’s try this again:


WHERE ARE YOUR LINKS ??


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## toastman (Aug 12, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> toastman said:
> 
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Everyone of your posts has been refuted. I don’t know why you choose to post here, when you truly know nothing of the Israel Palestine conflict excerpt what you want to believe.


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## Hollie (Aug 12, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> toastman said:
> 
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> > P F Tinmore said:
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Well known by whom?  Another of your unsupported comments.


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## Hollie (Aug 12, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> toastman said:
> 
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> > P F Tinmore said:
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Except the facts.


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## RoccoR (Aug 12, 2020)

RE: Israel's Lies 
⁜→ P F Tinmore, et al,

*BLUF*: You don't read very well. You need to tell us how that is applicable to decisions made prior to and post-Treay Adoption.



P F Tinmore said:


> The  terms  of  the  Treaty  of  Lausanne  required  the  *newly  created  states  that  acquired  the  territory* detached from the Ottoman Empire to pay annuities on the Ottoman public debt and to assume responsibility for the administration of concessions that had been granted by the Ottomans. The treaty also let the *States* acquire, without payment,  all  the  property  and  possessions  of  the  Ottoman  Empire  situated  within  their  territory.[25]  The  treaty provided that the League of Nations was responsible for establishing an arbital court to resolve disputes that might arise and stipulated that its decisions were final.


*(COMMENT)*

As far as the Principle of Succession goes, that is more economic than it is about political delineations.  But, as far as the application to the territory that was defined as Palestine, there were NO "states" for which the "Principle of State Succession" would directly apply.  This was the reason that the "Mavrommatis Jerusalem Concessions Case" went to the Permanent Court of International Justice (PCIJ) for settlement _(See Series A - #5)_.  It was a case that in the end, the Mandate was partitioned commensurate with the political condition of the day.  The PCIJ was established as the court to resolve disputes.

There were no objections, by any party to the treaty, to the plans and policies used pertaining to the Mandate for Palestine → adopted and implemented over the territory in question.  Nothing in the Wikipedia Article (_Rules of Establishment_), that you have cited, suggests that there is a contradiction to the decisions made relative to Palestine or Transjordan.  Neither was an autonomous State detached from Turkey by the treaty.  They were a compilation of administrative districts _(Sanjaks in two different)_ of the Ottoman Empire.



Most Respectfully,
R


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## Toddsterpatriot (Aug 12, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> toastman said:
> 
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> > P F Tinmore said:
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Israel, got bigger everytime the Arabs attacked.

Palestine........what's that again? An ever-shrinking maybe country......LOL!


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## Street Juice (Aug 13, 2020)

Andylusion said:


> Street Juice said:
> 
> 
> > Andylusion said:
> ...


If God says "xyz" will happen, then "xyz" will happen? If that's true then how can God get angry at the Jews and turn his face away from them for being disobedient? Aren't they just doing what God already foretold?


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## Street Juice (Aug 13, 2020)

RoccoR said:


> Nothing in the Wikipedia Article (_Rules of Establishment_), that you have cited, suggests that there is a contradiction to the decisions made relative to Palestine or Transjordan.


You can't trust Wikipedia on any subject having anything to do with Jews. Wikipedia knuckled under to the SPLC long ago when the SPLC successfully had many conservative editors purged.


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## Street Juice (Aug 13, 2020)

Street Juice said:


> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> > Street Juice said:
> ...


Also, there is something objectionable about the worship of a God  who agrees to make you the Master Race as long as you are sufficiently slavish in your worship of him.


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## fncceo (Aug 13, 2020)

Street Juice said:


> Street Juice said:
> 
> 
> > Andylusion said:
> ...



Or, G-d wisely choose the master race as the only once he desires to worship him.

Can you blame him?


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## Street Juice (Aug 13, 2020)

fncceo said:


> Or, G-d wisely choose the master race as the only once he desires to worship him.
> 
> Can you blame him?


I'd say God has poor taste in races.


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## P F Tinmore (Aug 13, 2020)

Hollie said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Toddsterpatriot said:
> ...


What part of my post was incorrect?


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## Hollie (Aug 13, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> Hollie said:
> 
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> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...


The incorrect part.


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## P F Tinmore (Aug 13, 2020)

RoccoR said:


> Every "State" has the duty to refrain from intervention in the internal or external affairs of any other "State;" that includes the entirety.


  





__





						Israel's Lies
					

RE: Israel's Lies  ⁜→ P F Tinmore, et al,  BLUF: Yes, that is a common theme with you.   ◈ Israel did NOT invade the territory of another state. ◈ Israel did not fire the first shot. ◈ Israel did not annexation by the use of force of "the territory of another State."  There you go back to...



					www.usmessageboard.com


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## P F Tinmore (Aug 13, 2020)

Hollie said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Hollie said:
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More proof that we need a stupid post button.


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## Hollie (Aug 13, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> Hollie said:
> 
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You earned it.


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## P F Tinmore (Aug 13, 2020)

Hollie said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > toastman said:
> ...


It is reported all over the place that Israel took *control* of 78% of Palestine in the 1948 war. That was when Israel occupied Palestine.

When, and under what circumstances, did Israel acquire legal title to that land?


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## rylah (Aug 13, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> toastman said:
> 
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Well, it's no different than saying Leningrad "occupied" St. Petersburg.


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## rylah (Aug 13, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> toastman said:
> 
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> > P F Tinmore said:
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Except for independence,

but keep telling yourself that... serves that self fulfilling cycle.

Arabs lost their entire armies and numerous wars over not being able to come to terms with defeat.


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## P F Tinmore (Aug 13, 2020)




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## Toddsterpatriot (Aug 13, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> It is reported all over the place that Israel took *control* of 78% of Palestine in the 1948 war. That was when Israel occupied Palestine.



How much did they control before they kicked the asses of 5 Arab armies?


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## Toddsterpatriot (Aug 13, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


>



And then you'll have to constantly kick Muslim ass and listen to their endless whining.


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## Hollie (Aug 13, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> Hollie said:
> 
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> > P F Tinmore said:
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It is reported all over the place that the Israelis liberated Palestine from the Islamist occupation.


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## RoccoR (Aug 13, 2020)

RE: Israel's Lies 
⁜→ P F Tinmore, et al,

*BLUF*: I am very glad you understand. The Arab Palestinians are not impacted by this at all. 



RoccoR said:


> Every "State" has the duty to refrain from intervention in the internal or external affairs of any other "State;" that includes the entirety.





P F Tinmore said:


> __
> 
> 
> 
> ...


*(COMMENT)*

Since → Israel did not intervene in the internal or external affairs of any other "State" but that Israel is a sovereign state, you can see that Israel is not at fault here.

(a)  The question of a permanent population is still in question;  ​(b)  The Arab Palestinian does not have a defined territory in which they can trace sovereign control; with the possible exception of Area "A" and the Gaza Strip;  ​(c)  There is no one government that can claim sovereign control over any disputed territory;   ​(d)  The capacity to enter into relations with the other states is a question for the other states.   The Arab Palestinian can sign any document.  Whether it represents a reasonable expectation of following that agreement is another matter entirely.​
And I am not even sure that the Ramallah Government is a signatory in the  International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights. (CCPR) (Israel is a signatory.) I don't know what message the Ramallah Government is trying to send - not a signatory.





Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## toastman (Aug 13, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...


Where did you read that Israel had to acquire a title for anything ?


----------



## Hollie (Aug 13, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...


Israel certainly did acquire a title. Here it is: 
*'National Homeland of the Jewish People'*


----------



## P F Tinmore (Aug 13, 2020)

RoccoR said:


> RE: Israel's Lies
> ⁜→ P F Tinmore, et al,
> 
> *BLUF*: I am very glad you understand. The Arab Palestinians are not impacted by this at all.
> ...


Here you go again going back to Israel's talking point that there is no Palestine.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Aug 13, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> Here you go again going back to Israel's talking point that there is no Palestine.



There was a Palestine? When? Where? What was their currency? Exchange rates? Interest rates?

Top 3 government officials?


----------



## Andylusion (Aug 13, 2020)

Street Juice said:


> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> > Street Juice said:
> ...



Your parents tell you, that if you stay out past 11 PM, then you'll be grounded. 

If you stay out too late, then you are grounded.  If you don't, then you are not.

G-d told the Jews that if they obeyed his commands, that he would bless them.

G-d also told the Jews, if they engaged in evil, and turned away from G-d, he would allow punishment against them.

When the Jews followed the law, they were blessed.  When they turned away, they were punished.

It's not that difficult of a concept.


----------



## Andylusion (Aug 13, 2020)

toastman said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> > toastman said:
> ...


Sunni is not a troll.  He has a different view.   Tinmore is a troll for sure.


----------



## Andylusion (Aug 13, 2020)

Street Juice said:


> Street Juice said:
> 
> 
> > Andylusion said:
> ...



Where does it say the "master race"?  What are you talking about?

And since when do you get to object to what G-d decides?

If there is no G-d... then you are objecting to nothing.   In which case, there is nothing for you to object to.   After all, people can make up whatever they want.

But.... if there is a G-d....  and he created everything....  then doesn't that mean he has the right to decide what he does with what he created?

I used to have the idea that I was going to be a programmer.   When I wrote a program, that was my program, and I could do with it, as I saw fit.  I made it.  I could delete it.  I could copy it, or modify it.

In fact, if I decided that one program worked better than another program, I could choose to upgrade it, and ignore the other one.  In fact, I could delete the other one.

G-d.... is G-d.  He has the right to do as he pleases, and you objection is irrelevant.   Just like if you had a car, and you want to tear the car up.   It's your car.  You can do as you please with it.

Can I come and say "I object to how you are dealing with your car"?  No.  Cause you don't care.   Because you own it.  It's yours.  And my opinion of what you do with your stuff is not of your concern.

G-d does not need your approval of who he blesses, and who he ignores, and who he punishes.


----------



## toastman (Aug 13, 2020)

Andylusion said:


> toastman said:
> 
> 
> > Sunni Man said:
> ...


He has a link in his sig that leads to rense.com. The sig reads: “let’s stop with the Aushwitz lies”
He’s worse than a troll. But yes, I agree, Tinmore is a troll. Among other things .


----------



## Andylusion (Aug 13, 2020)

toastman said:


> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> > toastman said:
> ...



I know he believes some crazy stuff.  But he generally a really good man, that has some very wrong views.  You can talk with him honestly. 

Tinmore is a troll.  He will never discusses anything.  Just repeats lies.  You'd be better off having a discussion with a pile of Pig poop, than Tinmore.


----------



## toastman (Aug 13, 2020)

Andylusion said:


> toastman said:
> 
> 
> > Andylusion said:
> ...


Very true about Tinmore.


----------



## RoccoR (Aug 14, 2020)

RE: Israel's Lies 
⁜→ P F Tinmore, et al,

*BLUF*: The Arab Palestinians are not impacted by this at all. You have trouble distinguishing between the political theater of the Arab Palestinian re-write of history and the reality of what happened by those that were there - and made history.

You are trying to imply that the pro-reality side of the equation denies the existence of "Palestine."  And they do disagree on the point that there was a "*State* of Palestine" at any time during the Mandate era and beyond.  

YOU have to ask yourself "why" that is?



P F Tinmore said:


> Here you go again going back to Israel's talking point that there is no Palestine.


*(OBSERVATION)*
​


			
				UK MEMORANDUM NAMES COMMISSIONAS SUCCESSOR GOVERNMENT said:
			
		

> The memorandum, transmitted to the Commission by the British Delegation to the United Nations, sets forth the position of the Mandatory Power with respect to the question of the successor government in Palestine after the termination of the British mandate.  Pertinent excerpts from the memorandum are as follows:​
> "Palestine is today a legal entity but it is not a sovereign state.  Palestine is a territory administered under mandate by His Majesty (in respect of the United Kingdom), who is entirely responsible both for its internal administration and for its foreign affairs.
> 
> "After the 15th May, 1948, Palestine will continue to be a legal entity but it will still not be a sovereign state because it will not be immediately self-governing. The authority responsible for its administration will, however, have changed.
> ...


SOURCE:  PAL/138 • 27 February 1948​​
*(COMMENT)*

There was an "legal entity" called "Palestine" _(so it did physically exist)_ but not in the form of a "state."

In Posting #196 - and - Posting #183, we discussed the "Principle of Succession" and how it would apply in the dispute between the Arab Palestinians and the decisions made by the Allied Powers through the agreement of the Treaty of Lausanne.  You made a point of the fact that an Article, within the State Department Digest of International Law concluded that the "Principle of Succession" applied.  WELL*!*  This was the very application of that "Principle" as the UN and the Mandate Authority saw it then _(months before the establishment of the Jewish State)_.  You will not find anyone, in that time frame, that objected to this position.  This lack of any objection is particularly true with respect to the silence from the Arab Higher Committee (AHC), Chaired by Supreme Muslim Council President Hajj Mohammed Amin al-Husseini, a former Army Officer of the Ottoman Empire, and high-level NAZI Collaborator during WWII_ (on the side of the defeated powers in both wars)_.

I see no record of the establishment of a "Palestine State" between the time the Occupied Enemy Territory Administration (OETA) ended (1920) and the aim to establish the State of Palestine in the land of Palestine, pursuant to the resolutions of the Arab Summit Conferences, in a Declaration of Independence announced by the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO)(1988).

Pursuant to UN Resolution A/RES/43/177 • 15 December 1988, the designation of "Palestine" was used in place of the designation "PLO."  

It was NOT until, through A/RES/67/19 • 4 December 2012, that the UN accord to Palestine non-member observer State status in the United Nations.

*(Ω)*  No matter what you believe should have happened → No matter what justice or injustice you may believe had occurred → No matter the legal interpretations you think you understand to the contrary → historically, this is how it played out.

* (SIDEBAR)*

No matter the understanding you have  →  no matter the conspiracy you may think to exist  → no matter the injustice you thing has occurred → for whatever reason, the Egyptian formed _(cobbled together)_ regime of the _All-Palestine Government (APG)_ _("mostly political and symbolic implications")_ was not recognized as a party to the events of governing.  The _Cable of 28 September 1948_ was not acted upon in any meaningful way.






Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## P F Tinmore (Aug 14, 2020)

RoccoR said:


> In Posting #196 - and - Posting #183, we discussed the "Principle of Succession"


A basic principle of international law is that the people stay on their land.  This rule was followed by Article 30 in the LoN Covenant. It was also followed by the Citizenship order of 1925 where citizenship was carried forward from the previous state. It was also followed in the text of the defunct Resolution 181. *None of these created a stateless people.* Other international laws reinforce this principle.


----------



## Hollie (Aug 14, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > In Posting #196 - and - Posting #183, we discussed the "Principle of Succession"
> ...



Yep. Back to _The Treaty of Lausanne invented the country of Pal’istan™️_

It’s been what, twelve hours since you last cut and pasted that canard?


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Aug 14, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > In Posting #196 - and - Posting #183, we discussed the "Principle of Succession"
> ...



*A basic principle of international law is that the people stay on their land.*

Anything in there say you can force them to stay?


----------



## RoccoR (Aug 14, 2020)

RE: Israel's Lies
⁜→ P F Tinmore, et al,

*BLUF*: Now you are confusing the issues. (You do this quite often.) You are not adding anything of substance to the question at hand.



P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > In Posting #196 - and - Posting #183, we discussed the "Principle of Succession"
> ...


*(COMMENT)*

I know all about Article 30 (Nationality) of the Treaty of Laussane.  It has nothing whatsoever to do with territorial partitioning.

And no stateless people were created by Israel.

On the other hand, the Hashemite Kingdom created "stateless people" when it abandons the West Bank and Jerusalem.

There is great confusion if the PLO, later designate "Palestine," orphaned the former citizens of Jordan into the care of the Israelis.

*(QUESTION)*

What where the Arab Palestinians citizens of the West Bank (Jerusalem) and Gaza Strip when the PLO declared independence?

What nationality were the Arab Palestinians of the Gaza Strip during Egyptian Military Governorship?




Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## P F Tinmore (Aug 14, 2020)

RoccoR said:


> RE: Israel's Lies
> ⁜→ P F Tinmore, et al,
> 
> *BLUF*: Now you are confusing the issues. (You do this quite often.) You are not adding anything of substance to the question at hand.
> ...


I have posted this before. You must have missed it.


----------



## RoccoR (Aug 14, 2020)

RE: Israel's Lies
⁜→ P F Tinmore, et al,

*BLUF*: Professor Susan M. Akram is a product of Georgetown. I inherently did trust those groomed two blocks away from the State Department. They tend to adopt the concepts held by their mentors and seldom are a source of any original thought.



P F Tinmore said:


> I have posted this before. You must have missed it.


*(COMMENT)*

No, I did not miss it.  I've even attended her lectures.  But I am of the opinion that International Law mutates in both interpretation and application.

Much of what she has said here has not yet been ruled upon.  It is opinion that is spread around...  And when you look for the original source, it is often the same → even though it is repeated many times by different people. One professor teaches a concept to many students, interests, fellowships, and practitioners → and they in turn go out and repeat the one view.  That is still only one source; just repeated many times over. 

And like some others, especially some who wrote Amici Curiae and the accepted Supplementals → under the extension → have expressed similar opinions.  It will be interesting to see what opinion the court holds.




Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## P F Tinmore (Aug 14, 2020)

RoccoR said:


> RE: Israel's Lies
> ⁜→ P F Tinmore, et al,
> 
> *BLUF*: Professor Susan M. Akram is a product of Georgetown. I inherently did trust those groomed two blocks away from the State Department. They tend to adopt the concepts held by their mentors and seldom are a source of any original thought.
> ...


*Susan M. Akram *
*Clinical Professor of Law*

BA with honors, University of Michigan Ann Arbor
JD, Georgetown University
Diplome in International Human Rights,
Institut International des Droits de l’Homme, Strasbourg (France)
Masters of Studies, International Human Rights Law, University of Oxford

*Areas of Interest*

Immigration Law & Policy, International & Comparative Law       
*Biography*

Professor *Susan Akram* directs BU Law’s International Human Rights Clinic, in which she supervises students engaged in international advocacy in domestic, international, regional, and UN fora. Her research and publications focus on immigration, asylum, refugee, forced migration, and human and civil rights issues, with an interest in the Middle East, the Arab, and Muslim world.


Akram’s distinguished research was recognized with a Fulbright Senior Scholar Teaching and Research Award for the 1999–2000 academic year. She has lectured on Palestinian refugees to general audiences around the world as well as to committees of the United Nations (including the High Commission for Refugees and the Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees), the European Union, and representatives of European and Canadian government ministries and parliaments. Since September 11, 2001, she has presented widely on the USA Patriot Act and immigration-related laws and policies as well as on her work challenging standard interpretations of women’s asylum claims from the Arab/Muslim world.


With her clinic students as well as in collaboration with other legal organizations, Akram has worked on resettlement and refugee claims of Guantanamo detainees, and has been co-counsel on a number of high profile cases, including the 20+-year litigation of a case of first impression on the interpretation of one of the exclusion bars to asylum, _In Re A-H-_. She has taught at the American University in Cairo, Egypt and at Al-Quds and Birzeit Universities in Palestine. She regularly teaches in the summer institute on forced migration at the Refugee Studies Centre at Oxford University, and in various venues in the Middle East on refugee law.

               Read Full Bio 
It is interesting to note that in my limited studies, I have drawn similar conclusions. It is nice to know that there is an agreement with someone of this stature.

So, what do you have that says different?


----------



## RoccoR (Aug 14, 2020)

RE: Israel's Lies
⁜→ P F Tinmore, et al,

*BLUF*: If you go back and read my commentary, you will find that I did not challenge Professor Akram's credentials.



P F Tinmore said:


> So, what do you have that says different?


*(COMMENT)*

I challenge her ability to develop original thoughts on the subject.




Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Aug 14, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > RE: Israel's Lies
> ...




_She has lectured on Palestinian refugees to general audiences around the world as well as to committees of the United Nations (including the High Commission for Refugees and the Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees), the European Union, and representatives of European and Canadian government ministries and parliaments.  _

That is AWESOME!!!!

Has she ever lectured on Palestinian terrorism to general audiences around the world as well as to committees of the United Nations (including the High Commission for Refugees and the Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees), the European Union, and representatives of European and Canadian government ministries and parliaments?


----------



## P F Tinmore (Aug 15, 2020)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > RoccoR said:
> ...


I don't recall her having any studies in juvenile name calling.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Aug 15, 2020)

RoccoR said:


> RE: Israel's Lies
> ⁜→ P F Tinmore, et al,
> 
> *BLUF*: If you go back and read my commentary, you will find that I did not challenge Professor Akram's credentials.
> ...


Refute away, my friend. I believe she is correct.


----------



## Hollie (Aug 15, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > RE: Israel's Lies
> ...


Appeal to authority is a logical fallacy. It's not an argument and just takes up bandwidth.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Aug 15, 2020)

Hollie said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > RoccoR said:
> ...


The truth will set you free.

Dr. Akram is a credible source.


----------



## Hollie (Aug 15, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...


I'm not convinced you recognize any truths. I suspect you will any activist as credible if the rhetoric aligns with your biases and hatreds.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Aug 15, 2020)

Hollie said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Hollie said:
> ...


Don's simply criticize, refute.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Aug 15, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> Toddsterpatriot said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



She minored in whining.


----------



## RoccoR (Aug 15, 2020)

RE: Israel's Lies
⁜→ P F Tinmore, et al,

*BLUF*: The Professor's commentary is an opinion NOT under and opposing view. It is made without criticism.



P F Tinmore said:


> Don's simply criticize, refute.


*(COMMENT)*

The Professor makes so many points in this short oratory that I could NOT mount an opposing view as a "layman."  But I will tackle a couple of remarks.

At the outset, I would like to say that the Professor's entire oratory has little to do with the current questions concerning that which stands before judgment now.  AND  The leadership decisions made pre-1948 and the application of the Rules of Law’ then (not now) are relevant.  There is no time machine that can set the clock backward and afford an opportunity to apply early 21st Century Law over events that happened in the early to mid-20th Century.  (No instant replay.  Let the decisions of the past stand as law of that day either in explicit or tacit perspectives.)

First, you cannot use "Nationality" in the case of Palestine.  At the time of the Treaty of Lausanne (1924-1925), "Palestine was defined by the Palestine Order in Council of 1922; NOT the Ottoman Empire.  The Ottoman Empire use a system of Vilayets divided into Sanjaks.  No single Vilayet of Sanjak corresponds to the defined boundaries of the Territory under the Mandate for Palestine.

I have no argument with the issue of the nationality being assumed in the case of a change in sovereign rule.  But that does not establish a claim to the territory by the people.  The Self-Determination, while granted to ALL people, is not actually defined and is not restricted. It applies equally to those people with pink toes, as we as, red toes. The Principle of Self-Determination is made binding by the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights (CCPR).  And the CCPR grants :

◈  Recognition of the inherent dignity and of the equal and inalienable rights of all members of the human family is the foundation of freedom, justice and peace in the world.  This are the "inalienable" rights binding under international law.​​◈  Free human beings enjoying civil and political freedom and freedom from fear and want can only be achieved if conditions are created whereby everyone may enjoy his civil and political rights, as well as his economic, social and cultural rights, binding under international law.​​◈  The most important of the binding Articles is that:   All peoples have the right of self-determination. By virtue of that right they freely determine their political status and freely pursue their economic, social and cultural development.​
And the last one mention is the most important relative to the Professor's oratory.  She made a specific point to the effect that the Jewish People were not recognized as a nationality and therefore not entitled to self-determination on the same order as the territorial inhabitants.  THAT is simply wrong.

When the Professor says that the inhabitants became citizens of Palestine under the 1925 Citizenship Law, what she failed to mention was that the inhabitants became citizens of the Government of Palestine (ie unique to the British Administration).  When the British terminated the Mandate, not only did the Brith leave, the mechanism for the issuance of Passports terminated with them.  She made a big deal of citing that some 70,000 Passports were issued.  And that would be true.  But those passports were issued by the British Administration and NOT any Palestinian Authority.

Nationality is tied to the land.  Citizenship is tied to "domestic law."  She makes a point of this, explains it twice.  BUT, the nuance escapes most people.  There was NO single authority that administered "domestic law" over the entire territory other than the British Administration.

I could go on, but I'm pressed for time.




Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## P F Tinmore (Aug 15, 2020)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Toddsterpatriot said:
> ...


She is addressing another one of Israel's lies/


RoccoR said:


> There is no time machine that can set the clock backward and afford an opportunity to apply early 21st Century Law over events that happened in the early to mid-20th Century.





Toddsterpatriot said:


> Has she ever lectured on Palestinian terrorism to general audiences around the world


Rights and sovereignty do not expire. there is no end date. Exercising these rights can be violated by occupation and colonization, but that does not negate those rights.

Subsequently, the UN has stated the continuing right for Palestinians in Palestine to self determination without external interference, the right to independence and sovereignty, the right to territorial integrity, and the right to return to their homes.

The violation of those rights do not negate those rights.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Aug 15, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> Toddsterpatriot said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



* the UN has stated the continuing right for Palestinians in Palestine to self determination without external interference *

They'd better hurry up and get their shit together.
Palestine is getting smaller.


----------



## Hollie (Aug 15, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...


I’ll need to find a YouTube video.


----------



## RoccoR (Aug 15, 2020)

RE: Israel's Lies
⁜→ P F Tinmore, et al,

*BLUF*: 



P F Tinmore said:


> Rights and sovereignty do not expire. there is no end date. Exercising these rights can be violated by occupation and colonization, but that does not negate those rights.


*(COMMENT)*

Well, that is not entirely true.

I'll give a couple of examples:

First from Professor Akram:  Citizenship is NOT a right.  It is a matter of domestic law.  The citizenship if the people of Ramallah today, is not the same as the citizenship under Jordanian Rule, and that was not the same as that under the Mandate.​​Then My example:  Sovereignty over the People of Ramallah Ottoman Empire ended with WWI.  Ramallah was under the sovereignty of The Hashemite Kingdom from 1950 to 1988.  In 1988 the PLO declared Independence over the West Bank and the Palestinians claim it as their territory.  Then, came Fatah and after Dec 2012, The Chairman of the PLO declared the State of Palestine.​​As you can see, both citizenship and sovereignty can change.  There is no First Principle of Tinmore.



P F Tinmore said:


> Subsequently, the UN has stated the continuing right for Palestinians in Palestine to self-determination without external interference, the right to independence and sovereignty, the right to territorial integrity, and the right to return to their homes.
> 
> The violation of those rights do not negate those rights.


*(COMMENT)*

And there is no such thing as a unique Right of Self-Determination to the Arab Palestinians that is not as equally as applicable to the Israelis and the Jewish National Home.

And the violation of the Israeli Rights does not negate them.  Remember, (one more time write this on your hand so you don't forget it):

[iondent]





			
				International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights (CCPR) said:
			
		

> *PART I  *_*Article 1*_
> 1. All peoples have the right of self-determination. By virtue of that right they freely determine their political status and freely pursue their economic, social and cultural development.
> 2. All peoples may, for their own ends, freely dispose of their natural wealth and resources without prejudice to any obligations arising out of international economic co-operation, based upon the principle of mutual benefit, and international law. In no case may a people be deprived of its own means of subsistence.
> 3. The States Parties to the present Covenant, including those having responsibility for the administration of Non-Self-Governing and Trust Territories, shall promote the realization of the right of self-determination, and shall respect that right, in conformity with the provisions of the Charter of the United Nations.


​​

​Most Respectfully,​R​


----------



## P F Tinmore (Aug 15, 2020)

RoccoR said:


> Then My example: Sovereignty over the People of Ramallah Ottoman Empire ended with WWI.


You have your head on up side down. The people are the sovereigns. Sovereignty flows up not down.


----------



## RoccoR (Aug 15, 2020)

RE: Israel's Lies
⁜→ P F Tinmore, et al,

*BLUF*: Yes, we are certainly talking on different levels of understanding. So, given you and I don't speak at comparable levels I will define the terms I am using, and what I believe Professor Susan M. Akram is using; relative to the context of her oration.



			
				 Internation Encyclopedia of Political Science said:
			
		

> Modern theories of sovereignty frequently distinguish between the internal and external aspects of sovereignty. Internal sovereignty is attributed to the governmental institutions of a state by virtue of fulfilling some or all of the above criteria, while external sovereignty is attributed to the state as a whole by virtue of being recognized as such by other states. Since the terms of recognition are dependent on the internal attributes of sovereignty, the requirements of external sovereignty have varied considerably over time. Recognition has been granted on different grounds, ranging from principles of dynastic succession, via national self-determination and territorial integrity, to the more recent requirement that states should be governed according to democratic principles to merit international recognition.
> 
> The first step toward the articulation of a recognizably modern conception of sovereignty was taken when claims to supreme authority were territorialized.
> *SOURCE:* Internation Encyclopedia of Political Science - Sovereignty, 8:2469–2472 Copyright © 2011 by SAGE Publications, Inc.


​

			
				Dictionary of Politics said:
			
		

> Sovereignty means the right to own and control some area of the world. It has, nowadays, nothing to do with monarchy, which might seem to be implied by the connotation of sovereign, but entirely refers to the idea of independent rule by a country or institution over a certain territory or set of political concerns.
> *SOURCE: * The Routledge of Politics, 3d Ed, pg 454, Taylor & Francis e-Library, 2004.






RoccoR said:


> Then My example: Sovereignty over the People of Ramallah Ottoman Empire ended with WWI.





P F Tinmore said:


> You have your head on up side down. The people are the sovereigns. Sovereignty flows up not down.


*(COMMENT)*

I have seen you mix up the meaning of sovereignty, in terms of the derivative source of legitimacy.  This is that vertical rise (flows up from the people).  Most of the time, when in the contemporary context, we are talking about the power of the government to exercise authority, not sharing it with any other higher authority.  OR


			
				American Dictionary said:
			
		

> *sov-er-eign-ty* /'sav(a)rante/ /!. (pi. -ties) supreme power or authority:  how can we hope to wrest sovereignty away rom the oligarchy and back to the people the authority of a state to govern itself or another state: national sovereignty. a self-governing state.
> t>late Middle English: from Old French sovereinete, from soverain.
> *SOURCE: * The Concise Oxford American Dictionary pg 866, Copyright © 2006 Published by Oxford University Press, Inc.
> 198 Madison Avenue, New York, New York, 10016


When considering the current political climate of the Regional Area immediately surrounding Israel and the territories in dispute, you will find that no two have the same type of government.
◈  Lebanon is a parliamentary republic.​◈  Syria is a presidential republic; a highly authoritarian regime.​◈  Jordan is a parliamentary constitutional monarchy.​◈  Saudi Arabia is an absolute monarchy.​◈  Egypt is a semi-presidential republic.​And none of those countries match the type of government of the US (constitutional federal republic).



Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## toastman (Aug 15, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...


Every single one of your posts is refuted . You simply cannot handle that you are wrong. ALWAYS wrong for that matter . 

Why you post here when you are so clueless about the I-P conflict is beyond me.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Aug 15, 2020)

RoccoR said:


> RE: Israel's Lies
> ⁜→ P F Tinmore, et al,
> 
> *BLUF*: Yes, we are certainly talking on different levels of understanding. So, given you and I don't speak at comparable levels I will define the terms I am using, and what I believe Professor Susan M. Akram is using; relative to the context of her oration.
> ...





			
				American Dictionary said:
			
		

> *sov-er-eign-ty* /'sav(a)rante/ /!. (pi. -ties) supreme power or authority:  *how can we hope to wrest sovereignty away from the oligarchy and back to the people* the authority of a state to govern itself or another state: national sovereignty. a self-governing state.
> t>late Middle English: from Old French sovereinete, from soverain.
> *SOURCE: * The Concise Oxford American Dictionary pg 866, Copyright © 2006 Published by Oxford University Press, Inc.
> 198 Madison Avenue, New York, New York, 10016


Like I said, sovereignty lies with the people of a defined territory. External interference violates that sovereignty. Coups, conquests, colonialism, and occupations do not acquire the sovereignty of the people. The Palestinians still hold the sovereignty inside their defined territory.

Who had the sovereignty to create the US Government?

*We the People.*


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Aug 15, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> The Palestinians still hold the sovereignty inside their defined territory.



They'd better hurry up.

"Their" territory keeps shrinking.


----------



## toastman (Aug 15, 2020)

The Palestinians hold nothing . Keep dreaming Tinnie . 
BTW , this is one of your more pathetic posts .


----------



## P F Tinmore (Aug 15, 2020)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > The Palestinians still hold the sovereignty inside their defined territory.
> ...


Conquest is illegal.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Aug 15, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> Toddsterpatriot said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



I agree, the Muslims need to all retreat into Saudi Arabia.


----------



## Ben Thomson (Aug 15, 2020)

On a side note, Israel has the distinction of being the first major group in the Middle East to carry out a terrorist bombing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_David_Hotel_


----------



## toastman (Aug 16, 2020)

Ben Thomson said:


> On a side note, Israel has the distinction of being the first major group in the Middle East to carry out a terrorist bombing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_David_Hotel_


Wow, I didn’t know Israel could be responsible for a bombing 2 years before it was created.


----------



## RoccoR (Aug 16, 2020)

RE: Israel's Lies
⁜→ P F Tinmore, et al,

*BLUF*: This is not totally correct.



P F Tinmore said:


> Like I said, sovereignty lies with the people of a defined territory. External interference violates that sovereignty. Coups, conquests, colonialism, and occupations do not acquire the sovereignty of the people. The Palestinians still hold the sovereignty inside their defined territory.
> 
> Who had the sovereignty to create the US Government?
> 
> *We the People.*


*(COMMENT)*

While sovereignty may, in certain governments, rest with the people it is not a requirement for a sovereign authority over territory.  It is certainly not true in the case of Saudi Arabia.

"An *emirate* is a political territory that is ruled by a dynastic Arabic or Islamic monarch-styled emir."

"*Constitutional monarchy* - a system of government in which a monarch is guided by a constitution whereby his/her rights, duties, and responsibilities are spelled out in written law or by custom."

BTW:  "We the People" is the opening line to the American Constitution.  It does not set sovereignty.  We are not discussing "Popular Sovereignty."




Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## Hollie (Aug 16, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> Toddsterpatriot said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...


Islamic history is defined by conquest.


----------



## Hollie (Aug 16, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > RE: Israel's Lies
> ...



*We the Islamic Supremacists

Snappy!*


----------



## RoccoR (Aug 16, 2020)

RE: Israel's Lies
⁜→ P F Tinmore, et al,

*BLUF*: Israeli sovereignty is not based on conquest. The West Bank was not a conquest over Palestinians.



P F Tinmore said:


> The Palestinians still hold the sovereignty inside their defined territory.





Toddsterpatriot said:


> They'd better hurry up.
> 
> "Their" territory keeps shrinking.





P F Tinmore said:


> Conquest is illegal.


*(COMMENT)*

The legality of "conquest" is NOT at issue here.  Legal or not does not affect the establishment of authority over a territory.  
​◈  Crimea​◈  China’s Seizure Of Territory In Ladakh ​◈  China claims of sovereignty over territorial water in South China Sea ​​In these very recent_ (21st Century issues)_ territorial issues, the fact that all of them are an outcome of military aggression does not change the sovereignty.  The Russian exercise sovereign control over the Crimea and the Chinese exercise sovereign control over areas in the South China Sea and the Indian territory of Ladakh.  The legitimacy of all these seizures may be questionable.  But you don't argue with the Border Guards of the Federal Security Service or the Chinese Border Police.




Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## RoccoR (Aug 16, 2020)

RE: Israel's Lies
⁜→ P F Tinmore, Toddsterpatriot, et al,

*BLUF*: The real question is if the Arab Palestinians actually exercise sovereignty over any territory at all?



P F Tinmore said:


> The Palestinians still hold the sovereignty inside their defined territory


["Toddsterpatriot, post: 25289909, member: 29707"]
They'd better hurry up.
"Their" territory keeps shrinking.
[/QUOTE]
*(COMMENT)*

I say that is questionable.  Certainly, this nonsense about their sovereignty based on the assigned borders of the early Mandate Period is bogus.  But there are two possibilities:

◈  Area "A" for the Fatah Regime​◈  Gaza for the HAMAS Regime​
And these are the only possibilities that I see.  I have to agree with our friend "Toddsterpatriot."  The Hostile Arab Palestinian leadership has not done the Palestinian Nationalist any service.



Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## P F Tinmore (Aug 16, 2020)

RoccoR said:


> Israeli sovereignty is not based on conquest. The West Bank was not a conquest over Palestinians.


Link.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Aug 16, 2020)

RoccoR said:


> The legality of "conquest" is NOT at issue here. Legal or not does not affect the establishment of authority over a territory.


Conquest is illegal. Nothing legal can come from an illegal act.

You have posted a link saying that conquest is illegal,


----------



## Hollie (Aug 16, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > The legality of "conquest" is NOT at issue here. Legal or not does not affect the establishment of authority over a territory.
> ...


What conquest?

link?


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Aug 16, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > The legality of "conquest" is NOT at issue here. Legal or not does not affect the establishment of authority over a territory.
> ...



*Conquest is illegal. *

Maybe if you send a strongly worded letter you can finally get a country?


----------



## Street Juice (Aug 17, 2020)

Andylusion said:


> When the Jews followed the law, they were blessed. When they turned away, they were punished.


The law like this one where God demands genocide?

_When the Lord thy God shall bring thee into the land whither thou goest to possess it, and hath cast out many nations before thee,... And when the Lord thy God shall deliver them before thee; thou shalt smite them, and utterly destroy them; thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor shew mercy unto them: Deut 7:1, 2_


----------



## Street Juice (Aug 17, 2020)

Andylusion said:


> Where does it say the "master race"? What are you talking about?


_For thou art an holy people unto the Lord thy God: the Lord thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth. Deut 7:6_


----------



## Street Juice (Aug 17, 2020)

Andylusion said:


> And since when do you get to object to what G-d decides?
> 
> If there is no G-d... then you are objecting to nothing. In which case, there is nothing for you to object to. After all, people can make up whatever they want.
> 
> But.... if there is a G-d.... and he created everything.... then doesn't that mean he has the right to decide what he does with what he created?



If there is a God, it isn't necessarily Yahweh, the Bloody
If there is a God, you don't get to determine what "He" has "decided" and then interpret it for me.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Sep 20, 2020)

rylah said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > rylah said:
> ...


You seem anxious to show me so let's see them.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Sep 20, 2020)

rylah said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Toddsterpatriot said:
> ...


Israel claims it won land while none of the parties to the conflict lost any. ?????

You don't make any sense.


----------



## RoccoR (Sep 20, 2020)

RE: Israel's Lies
⁜→ P F Tinmore, et al,

*BLUF: * You are trying to mold a "victory" out of a failed Arab attempt to mount a successful intervention against the Israelis.  That simply does not wash with the history.



P F Tinmore said:


> Another one.
> 
> Five Arab armies attacked Israel in 1948.


*(COMMENT)*

"On 14 May 1948, Britain relinquished its Mandate over Palestine and disengaged its forces. On the same day, the Jewish Agency proclaimed the establishment of the State of Israel on the territory allotted to it by the partition plan. Fierce hostilities immediately broke out between the Arab and  Jewish communities.  The next day, regular troops of the neighboring Arab  States entered the territory to assist the Palestinian Arabs."  (*Page 10, The Blue Book - The Question of Palestine and the United Nations*) 



Toddsterpatriot said:


> Too disorganized to be called armies?





P F Tinmore said:


> Indeed it was not much of a war but Israel used it as an excuse to steal land.


*(COMMENT)*

IF there were forces that used the conflict as "an excuse to steal land" THEN it was the Arab Forces of Egypt and Jordan.  (See Below)



Toddsterpatriot said:


> 5 disorganized mobs lose to Israel.
> Not the last time disorganized Muslims will lose, eh?





P F Tinmore said:


> Which leads us to another Israeli lie.
> 
> The five Arab armies lost to Israel.


*(COMMENT)*

"Between  February  and  July  1949,  under  United  Nations  auspices,  armistice agreements  were  signed  between  Israel,  on  the  one  hand,  and  Egypt,  Jordan, Lebanon  and  Syria  on  the  other."   (*Page 10, The Blue Book - The Question of Palestine and the United Nations*)

"The agreements,  which were similar in general content,  accepted the establishment of the armistice as an indispensable step towards the restoration of peace in Palestine. They also made clear that the purpose of the armistice was not to establish or recognize any territorial, custodial or other rights,  claims  or  interests  of  any  party."  (*Page 10, The Blue Book - The Question of Palestine and the United Nations*)



Toddsterpatriot said:


> What's the opposite of defeated Israel?





P F Tinmore said:


> Duck!





Toddsterpatriot said:


> Darn ducks, beating the disorganized Muslim rabble.....over and over and over.
> 
> So how big is the country of Palestine going to be?
> 
> Lichtenstein? Smaller?


*(COMMENT)*

The terms "win" and "loss" are layman's terms that our friend P F Tinmore is trying to spin into something that can then be disputed.  The fact of the matter is, the Israelis successfully defended their territorial integrity.

The 1948 conflict was not over with the signing of the Armistice.  The Armistice Agreements were to remain in force until a peaceful settlement between the Parties is achieved.  Technically, the 1967 Six-Day War and the 1973 Yom Kipper War, were continuations of the 1948 intervention by the Arab League Forces.  The 1948 Conflict and the 1949 Armistice Arrangements were concluded with the  Peace Treaties with Egypt and Jordan (1979 and 1994 respectively).   Although there is a different kind of Peace Arrangement with Lebanon, it still is considered a "peaceful settlement."  Thus the 1948, 1967, and 1973 Conflicts between Israel and the Arab States of Egypt, Jordan (and by extension Iraq), and Lebanon have concluded (although Lebanon still has a dispute over a small parcel of land currently under Israeli control).



P F Tinmore said:


> The lie is that the Arab armies lost to Israel in 1948.
> 
> The fighting ended by the UN Security Council calling for an armistice. Nobody lost that war.





Toddsterpatriot said:


> *The fighting ended by the UN Security Council calling for an armistice.*
> 
> We agree, the Arabs didn't win and Israel didn't lose.


*(COMMENT)*

All the "Armistice Agreements" were facilitated by the United Nations Acting Mediator to the Secretary-General

Actually, Egypt and Jordan both made territorial end-roads penetrating the Gaza Strip and West Bank.  These were represented the effective control of territory which the external forces did not have prior to the 1948 intervention.  Later, the Egyptians established a Military Governorship and the Jordanians Annexed the West Bank.  



P F Tinmore said:


> The point is that the 5 Arab countries did not lose.
> 
> ✪  As of this date:
> 
> ✦  What did Lebanon lose?​✪  Net loss of control over the Shebaa Farms (still in dispute and remains unresolved).​✦  What did Syria lose?​✪  Net loss of control over the Golan Heights.​✦  What did Jordan lose?​✪  Net gain of control over the West Bank & Jerusalem.​✦  What did Iraq lose?​✪  No net gain or loss​✦  What did Egypt lose?​✪  Net loss over Gaza Strip.​





P F Tinmore said:


> Israel claims it won land while none of the parties to the conflict lost any. ?????
> 
> You don't make any sense.


*(COMMENT)*

I'm not sure that Israel makes that claim at all as a political platform or a legal defense.  I'm not even sure that Israel sees arguing points of Customary and International Law on any of these issues is to their advantage.  In the history of the last 1000 expulsions (by the world powers of the day) of the Jewish People, I'm not sure that the Jewish People see any fair treatment towards them by these powers.

◈  There is an argument to be made relative to the permanent boundary between Egypt and Israel.​​◈  There is an argument to be made relative to the international boundary between Jordan and Israel.​
These arguments are based on the  Peace Treaties with Egypt and Jordan (1979 and 1994 respectively). 

There is an argument to be made over whether or not the West Bank and Jerusalem were ever taken from the Arab Palestinians by the Israelis.  At the end of July, 1988, the Jordanian Government cut all ties with the West Bank (including Jerusalem) and left it under the effective control of Israel.  This was before the  PLO proclaimed independence.




Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## P F Tinmore (Sep 20, 2020)

RoccoR said:


> The UN Armistice Agreements (with Jordan and Egypt) were in force only until the permanent Peace Treaties were established. Articles XII(2) in both agreements state: "shall remain in force until a peaceful settlement between the Parties is achieved"


OK, but that ducks my question. (Nothing new here.)


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Sep 20, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



*Israel claims it won land while none of the parties to the conflict lost any. ????? *

Only because it was larger after the conflict than before.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Sep 20, 2020)

RoccoR said:


> On the same day, the Jewish Agency proclaimed the establishment of the State of Israel on the territory allotted to it by the partition plan.


*Another Israeli lie.* By the time the foreigners declared themselves a state they had already blown past those proposed (but never implemented) borders and was deep into proposed Arab and UN territory. Israel never claimed those borders.


----------



## Taz (Sep 20, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > On the same day, the Jewish Agency proclaimed the establishment of the State of Israel on the territory allotted to it by the partition plan.
> ...


Does it really burn your camel dung that arab states are making peace with Israel?


----------



## P F Tinmore (Sep 20, 2020)

RoccoR said:


> Palestine was an "entity" created by the British Government for assuming responsibility and control over the territory.


Palestine was a state created out of post war treaties. The Mandate did not commence until about three months after the signing on the Treaty of Lausanne. Palestine had to be there before the Mandate could start.


----------



## Likkmee (Sep 20, 2020)

It was pre-dedicated in The Kings second(or third) revision of The Script and right on time.Gotta stick to the script. Written by scribes....who scribble. The fun will be on schedule too.
Project Blue Beam.


----------



## Likkmee (Sep 20, 2020)

Google will likely declare a dnsa from redirects from USMB while y'all look that up


----------



## P F Tinmore (Sep 20, 2020)

RoccoR said:


> The application of the concepts pertaining to "nationality" and "citizenship" in Israel is a matter for the Israelis to apply. Not you.


I know it's not me. However, Israel must conform with the rules of nationality and state succession as laid out in international law. I have posted that many times. You need to keep up.


----------



## Hollie (Sep 20, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > Palestine was an "entity" created by the British Government for assuming responsibility and control over the territory.
> ...


There was no “State of Pal’istan” created by any post war treaty. 

There is no “State of Pal’istan” currently. 

In anticipation of your nonsensical insistence that the Treaty of Lausanne created your imagined “State of Pal’istan”, the answer is no. That has been the same answer every time you have made that nonsensical claim.


----------



## Hollie (Sep 20, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > The application of the concepts pertaining to "nationality" and "citizenship" in Israel is a matter for the Israelis to apply. Not you.
> ...


Actually, yes, it is you. 

Making the same nonsensical claims over the course of 10 years means yes, it is you.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Sep 20, 2020)

Hollie said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > RoccoR said:
> ...


It means that Zionists are slow learners.


----------



## RoccoR (Sep 20, 2020)

RE: Israel's Lies
⁜→ P F Tinmore, et al,

*BLUF: * You did not ask a question.



RoccoR said:


> The UN Armistice Agreements (with Jordan and Egypt) were in force only until the permanent Peace Treaties were established. Articles XII(2) in both agreements state: "shall remain in force until a peaceful settlement between the Parties is achieved"





P F Tinmore said:


> OK, but that ducks my question. (Nothing new here.)


*(COMMENT)*

So, the agreed boundaries are where by treaty?  And with whom the Arab Palestinians make the treaty with?



RoccoR said:


> The application of the concepts pertaining to "nationality" and "citizenship" in Israel is a matter for the Israelis to apply. Not you.





P F Tinmore said:


> I know it's not me. However, Israel must conform with the rules of nationality and state succession as laid out in international law. I have posted that many times. You need to keep up.


*(COMMENT)*

The sovereign authority establishes nationality and citizenship law.  The law of state succession does not have an application here.  There was no state, other than Israel, that was established.  There was no State of Palestine (until December 2012).  

Any Arab Palestinian claiming citizenship (the right to enter Israeli Sovereign Territory) under Article 12, International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights (CCPR) (1976), must be able to prove they hold Israeli Citizenship under Israeli Law.

Article 12 CCPR_*:*_​1. Everyone lawfully within the territory of a State shall, within that territory, have the right to liberty of movement and freedom to choose his residence.​​2. Everyone shall be free to leave any country, including his own.​​3. The above-mentioned rights shall not be subject to any restrictions except those which are provided by law, are necessary to protect national security, public order (ordre public), public health or morals or the rights and freedoms of others, and are consistent with the other rights recognized in the present Covenant.​​4. No one shall be arbitrarily deprived of the right to enter his own country.​​Article 2, UN Charter:​7.  Nothing contained in the present Charter shall authorize the United Nations to intervene in matters which are essentially within the domestic jurisdiction of any state or shall require the Members to submit such matters to settlement under the present Charter; but this principle shall not prejudice the application of enforcement measures under Chapter Vll.​​I have not seen a line of 70 y/o Arab Palestinians making a claim before the Israeli Court on the matter of Citizenship and entry.  Note, that many will have trouble upon entry if they have any association with any organization that poses a threat to national security, public order, public health or morals or the rights and freedoms of others.

It is also important to remember that the Arab Palestinians have, on several occasions, rejected the processes by which self-governing institutions are established.

*(QUESTION)*

Please cite me the particular claim that an Arab Palestinian has made on citizenship matter.  Please cite me the clause under International Law that the Israelis are violating.

*(ISSUE)*

IF you have a specific question, THEN ask it.  Otherwise, knock-off the claim that a question was ducked.

I will be happy to meet any challenge you present in a clear and distinct manner.




Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## P F Tinmore (Sep 20, 2020)

RoccoR said:


> RE: Israel's Lies
> ⁜→ P F Tinmore, et al,
> 
> *BLUF: * You did not ask a question.
> ...


It is the same question that you have been ducking for years.

P F Tinmore said: In the 1949 UN Armistice Agreements, Palestine is mentioned many times. Israel is not mentioned. Palestine's international borders are referenced. No borders are mentioned.for Israel. Two times the Negev is called Palestine.

Now, how can Israel claim borders on that land?


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Sep 20, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > RE: Israel's Lies
> ...



* In the 1949 UN Armistice Agreements, Palestine is mentioned many times. Israel is not mentioned. *










__





						United Nations Maintenance Page
					






					unispal.un.org
				




Liar!!


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Sep 20, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > RE: Israel's Lies
> ...



Liar!









__





						S/1296 of 23 March 1949
					





					web.archive.org


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Sep 20, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > RE: Israel's Lies
> ...



Liar!!










						United Nations Maintenance Page
					






					unispal.un.org


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Sep 20, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > RE: Israel's Lies
> ...



Durr.









__





						United Nations Maintenance Page
					






					unispal.un.org


----------



## RoccoR (Sep 20, 2020)

RE: Israel's Lies
⁜→ P F Tinmore, et al,

*BLUF: * Armistice Lines are NOT the same as internationally recognized boundaries for sovereignty.  The International Agreements that result in a peaceful settlement between parties can (and in this case) do establish permanent International Boundaries between nations.

In the case of the entity "Palestine" it was not recorded as a party to any Armistice Agreement or Peace Treaty.  Why?* (RHETORICAL)* Because it was not a self-governing institution. Palestine was the Short Title for the" territory under the administration of the Mandate." 



P F Tinmore said:


> It is the same question that you have been ducking for years.
> 
> P F Tinmore said: In the 1949 UN Armistice Agreements, Palestine is mentioned many times. Israel is not mentioned. Palestine's international borders are referenced. No borders are mentioned.for Israel. Two times the Negev is called Palestine.
> 
> Now, how can Israel claim borders on that land?


*(COMMENT)*

The Armistice Agreements did not mention permanent international boundaries because Armistice Agreement only deal with the separation of forces along the Forward Edge of the Battle Area (FEBA).
​❖ The *Jordan-Israel Peace Treaty* was signed on October 26, 1994 →​◈ Article 3 - *International Boundary*​​❖ The *Treaty of Peace between the Arab Republic of Egypt and the State of Israel*, 26 March 1979​◈ Article II T*he permanent boundary between* Egypt and Israel​​*❖** Annex to the letter dated 12 June 2000 from the Permanent Representative of Lebanon*​to the United Nations addressed to the Secretary-General​◈ Paragraph 11 of this report states that “for the practical purpose of confirming the Israeli withdrawal, the United Nations needs to identify a line to be adopted conforming to the internationally recognized boundaries of Lebanon ...” and that “the United Nations will then identify physically, on the ground, those portions of the line necessary or relevant to confirming the withdrawal of Israeli forces”.​​*❖* On 14 December 1981 the Israeli Knesset passed the Golan Heights Law. While the law did not use the term annexation, it was considered to be an annexation by the Israeli opposition and international community.​The action was condemned internationally, and in response the United Nations Security Council passed United Nations Security Council Resolution 497 declaring the law "null and void and without international legal effect" and that the Fourth Geneva Convention continued to apply to the Golan as an occupied territory.​◈ *Article 3 of the Montevideo Convention on Rights and Duties of States (1933) states:*  The political existence of the state is independent of recognition by the other states.​
Whether or not the Arab Palestinians recognize the boundaries, as they exist today, is immaterial and has no being on the question.  Whether or not the Armistice Agreements make mention of Israel is immaterial.

After the Armistice Agreements took hold, the Arab Palestinians, as an entity, had no control over any territory west of the Jordan River until 1995 and that being Area "A" and later in 2005 when the Israelis unilaterally withdrew from the Gaza  Strip.  Both these actions fell under the "without prejudice notice" in the Peace Treaties.

If any Political Official from any nation, International Agency, or Organization passes through an Israeli Border Control Point into the West Bank, the Gaza Strip, or Jerusalem, the have given recognition to Israeli control.  ARTICLE 7 of the *Montevideo Convention on Rights and Duties of States (1933) states:* The recognition of a state may be express or tacit. The latter results from any act which implies the intention of recognizing the new state. The Arab Palestinians do not maintain any Border Control Point → the entry into Israel and exist from the West Bank, the Gaza Strip, or Jerusalem.

*(Now ∑∑ of Very Basic Key Points)*

•  The political existence of the state is independent of recognition by the other states.  It is immaterial to whether you recognize Israel or not. •  Israel is a reality with an active defense and a defined border by physical markings.
•  IF recognition is given, THEN Recognition is unconditional and irrevocable. 
•  The recognition of a state may be express or tacit.
•  No state has the right to intervene in the internal or external affairs of another.

If I missed some aspect of your question (Now, how can Israel claim borders on that land?) let me know_*!*_



Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## toastman (Sep 20, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > Palestine was an "entity" created by the British Government for assuming responsibility and control over the territory.
> ...


When did Palestine become a state ?


----------



## LuckyDuck (Sep 20, 2020)

Sunni Man said:


> The zionist Israeli pukes have created a gigantic lie to explain how their theft of other people's land wasn't really theft.  ...


Let's burst your Islamist bubble.  Islam didn't exist before the warrior thief Muhammad came along in...570 A.D. and created a warped religion, built upon man's negative emotions of hatred.
The Hebrews (Jews), migrated to the current region of Israel, while the Pharaohs were still ruling Egypt, a couple of thousand years before that monster existed (oh, the nonsense about the Moses exodus is just that. no Pharaoh was gobbled up by the Red Sea, Egyptian Priests kept good records of their Pharaohs deaths and the workers on the Pyramids, based upon archaeology, were actually paid workers).
Having said that, it doesn't negate that the Hebrews did migrate to the Israeli region.  In the area they settled, THERE WERE NO EXISTING CITIES! They built those ancient cities.  When Rome expanded, they ruled Jerusalem, again, before Muhammad existed, but the Hebrews (Jews) were still there.  Eventually, Christianity took over the Romans culture and the Western Roman Empire died out in 476 A.D..  The Eastern Roman Empire became the Byzantine Empire, which Jerusalem was a part of, saw the area change hands from Christian to Muslim and back again via the estimated eight Crusades.  The last of the Byzantine Empire ended in 1453, with the Muslims conquering Constantinople.  The Jerusalem area was firmly in the hands of the Muslims, yet the Hebrews (Jews) still resided in the land and cities they founded. 
Fast forward to 1948.  The Jews and Muslims were having what can be referred to as "tit-for-tat" confrontations and the Jews went to the United Nations Security Council and asked that they be allowed to have "some" of the land back that had been stolen from them by Muslims in war and thus wanted to have a nation of their own, as they had in antiquity.  The United Nations agreed and the nation of Israel was born.
Per Islam's teachings, that once a region is conquered by Islam, should the people that they took it from, get it back, they are to be considered "occupiers" and thus the nonsense claim has persisted, since 1948.  The Muslims in accordance with their teachings, cannot be ruled by infidels in their lands, said they wouldn't live under Jewish rule, and migrated out of the immediate area and spread to Lebanon, Egypt, Syria and Jordan.
The entire problem in the area is the Quran.  It wreaks of hate and war towards those non-believers and denying it by quoting some of Muhammad's earlier teachings, won't negate that those who believe themselves to be "true" Muslims, also believe that Muhammad's latter teachings, of hate and violence towards non-believers, supersede his earlier teachings of peace (abrogation).


----------



## RoccoR (Sep 20, 2020)

RE: Israel's Lies
⁜→ P F Tinmore, et al,

*BLUF: * This is an example of misinformation that is *deliberately* intended *to deceive* the audience.



RoccoR said:


> Palestine was an "entity" created by the British Government for assuming responsibility and control over the territory.





P F Tinmore said:


> Palestine was a state created out of post war treaties. The Mandate did not commence until about three months after the signing on the Treaty of Lausanne. Palestine had to be there before the Mandate could start.





toastman said:


> When did Palestine become a state ?


*(COMMENT)  *

The ✪ Palestine Order in LoN Council → (10 August 1922) formally established "Palestine" → 


			
				This Order may be cited as "The Palestine Order in Council said:
			
		

> The limits of this Order are the territories to which the Mandate for Palestine applies, *hereinafter described as Palestine*.



By 1948, the status of this Palestine, the territories to which the Mandate applies:
​

			
				LEGAL MEANING OF THE “TERMINATION OF THE MANDATE” 25 February 1948 said:
			
		

> Palestine is today a legal entity* but it is not a sovereign state*. Palestine is a territory administered under mandate by His Majesty (in respect of the United Kingdom), who is entirely responsible both for its internal administration and for its foreign affairs.



It is impossible to misunderstand the intentions of the Allied Powers of 1920, and the Allied Powers in 1948.  The Arab Palestinians are grasping at straws to think that the Treaty of Lausanne established a self-governing institution for the territory.  It simply did not happen.



Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## LuckyDuck (Sep 20, 2020)

The really basic issue in this is that the Hebrews/Jews got some of their territory back that was stolen from them by warring Muslims and because of the teachings in the Quran, they just cannot accept it.
The hypocrisy of the leftist Americans, not of Muslim descent, crying out for the Palestinians, agreeing that the Israelis are occupiers, is that most are sitting on land taken from Native American tribes by force, yet I don't see any of them packing up and heading to Europe.


----------



## LuckyDuck (Sep 20, 2020)

Sunni Man can disagree all he likes but the teachings in the Quran are there to see and facts are the facts.
I agree with Sunni Man on many non-religious issues, but when it comes to his religion, it's abject hatred for non-believers must always be pointed out.


----------



## Sunni Man (Sep 20, 2020)

Difference is the Indians loss of land took place two or three centuries ago.
While the 1948 zionist Israeli land theft took place during the lifetime of people still around, and continues unabated today.  ...


----------



## P F Tinmore (Sep 20, 2020)

Sunni Man said:


> Difference is the Indians loss of land took place two or three centuries ago.
> While the 1948 zionist Israeli land theft took place during the lifetime of people still around, and continues unabated today.  ...


Indeed, when the Europeans took over America there was no international law. Conquest was not illegal.

When the Zionists took Palestine conquest was illegal. And it still is.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Sep 20, 2020)

Sunni Man said:


> Difference is the Indians loss of land took place two or three centuries ago.
> While the 1948 zionist Israeli land theft took place during the lifetime of people still around, and continues unabated today.  ...



Yeah, the Ottoman ass beating was fairly recent.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Sep 20, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> > Difference is the Indians loss of land took place two or three centuries ago.
> ...



Who did they "conquest"?


----------



## MJB12741 (Sep 20, 2020)

So much discussion here over who stole who's land.  Well lets see now, which came first, Solomon's Temple or the Al Aqsa Mosque?  Boy that's a tough one huh Tinmore & Sunni?


----------



## P F Tinmore (Sep 20, 2020)

RoccoR said:


> The ✪ Palestine Order in LoN Council → (10 August 1922) formally established "Palestine" →
> 
> 
> > The limits of this Order are the territories to which the Mandate for Palestine applies, *hereinafter described as Palestine*.


The Order in Council was back when Palestine was occupied Turkish territory.

By 1924 Palestine was a state. Different set of rules.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Sep 20, 2020)

MJB12741 said:


> So much discussion here over who stole who's land.  Well lets see now, which came first, Solomon's Temple or the Al Aqsa Mosque?  Boy that's a tough one huh Tinmore & Sunni?


----------



## Oz and the Orchestra (Sep 21, 2020)

Much as I have a great deal of sympathy for those who survived the Holocaust and wanted to flee Europe.
They had no right to all converge on Palestine. Jews had abandoned their promised land nearly two millenium ago.
The British should have stopped them. Israel is a modern concept and had no right to exist.
Today however we have to accept that Israel does exist, and a two state solution should be forced on her, which she has pulled every trick in the book to prevent.

Israel has broken more UN resolutions than Stalin, Pol Pot, and Saddam H.

It is about time the US stopped blocking sanctions, and using Israel as a look out post for its middle east interests.
The US should butt out of interfering in global hotspots and keep her interests within her own borders.
Sooner or later the US will stop propping up Israel with finance and when on her own there will be an almighty reckoning.

As it stands, - what country puts its own PM on trial for corruption while still serving.
Israel today is a corrupt, racist, fascist enclave with little to offer the world accept aggression.


----------



## Hollie (Sep 21, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > The ✪ Palestine Order in LoN Council → (10 August 1922) formally established "Palestine" →
> ...


So.... as usual, you have retreated to the nonsensical meme ''the Treaty of Lausanne invented the state of Pal'istan''. 

That tired slogan needs to be retired.


----------



## Hollie (Sep 21, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > The ✪ Palestine Order in LoN Council → (10 August 1922) formally established "Palestine" →
> ...


Indeed. If you're claiming that the geographic area called Palestine was area occupied by the Turks, then clearly, the Arabs occupying the geographic area called Palestine were a part of that occupation. 

Indeed, that is consistent with the history of the Arab-Moslem colonial settler project.


----------



## Sunni Man (Sep 21, 2020)

Oz and the Orchestra said:


> *Israel today is a corrupt, racist, fascist enclave with little to offer the world accept aggression.*


Your assessment of the terrorist state of Israel is spot on. ...


----------



## Oz and the Orchestra (Sep 21, 2020)

Sunni Man said:


> Oz and the Orchestra said:
> 
> 
> > *Israel today is a corrupt, racist, fascist enclave with little to offer the world accept aggression.*
> ...


Well at least we agree on something!


----------



## RoccoR (Sep 21, 2020)

RE: Israel's Lies
⁜→ Oz and the Orchestra, et al,

*BLUF: * This is an opposing view that is clear and simple, yet easily challenged.



Oz and the Orchestra said:


> Much as I have a great deal of sympathy for those who survived the Holocaust and wanted to flee Europe.
> They had no right to all converge on Palestine. Jews had abandoned their promised land nearly two millenium ago.
> The British should have stopped them. Israel is a modern concept and had no right to exist.
> Today however we have to accept that Israel does exist, and a two state solution should be forced on her, which she has pulled every trick in the book to prevent.


*(COMMENT)*

Sympathy is actually NOT a logical approach to the issue (not relevant).  It is in the family of _*Logical Fallacies called an Appeal to Emotions*_.

None the less, because many people express this view it needs to be discussed on an unemotional basis.

◈  It was the *Convention at San Remo (April 1920)* where the Allied Powers of the Great War (WWI) made the decision "undertaking by the Mandatory Power that this would not involve* the surrender of the rights* hitherto enjoyed by the non-Jewish communities in Palestine." (The non-Jewish Community being the "habitual Inhabitants" or better know today as the "Arab Palestinians.")​​◈  It was the *Convention at San Remo (April 1920)* where the Allied Powers of the Great War (WWI) made the decision that the "Mandatory will be responsible for putting into effect the declaration originally made on November 8, 1917, by the British Government, and adopted by the other Allied Powers, in favour of the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people." (*That being the "Balfour" Declaration*.)​​◈  It was the *Convention at San Remo (April 1920)* where the Allied Powers of the Great War (WWI) that gave recognition to the "*historical connexion of the Jewish people with Palestine*."​​◈  It was the *Convention at San Remo (April 1920)* where the Allied Powers of the Great War (WWI) that "*selected His Britannic Majesty as the Mandatory for Palestine*."​​◈  It was the *Convention at San Remo (April 1920)* where the Allied Powers of the Great War (WWI) decided, in consultation with His Britannic Majesty's Government, "to secure the cooperation of all Jews who are willing to assist in *the establishment of the Jewish national home*."​​◈  It was the *Convention at San Remo (April 1920)* where the Allied Powers of the Great War (WWI) decided to "*facilitate Jewish immigration* under suitable conditions and shall encourage, in co-operation with the Jewish agency referred to in Article 4, close settlement by Jews on the land."​
For whatever reason, a century ago, the Principal Allied Powers made these six (6) momentous decisions (and more).  These are the unemotional facts from the beginning.  I know it is hard, today, to think like the leaders of the Principal Allied Powers who just came through the Great War.  But it is impossible to apply today's political policies and customary laws to that time frame and those conditions; just as it is quite impossible for most people to understand that the political positions held by the leaders of America.  America was, in 1920, one of the world's colonial powers that held Puerto Rico, Philippines, Midway Island, Guam, American Samoa, U.S. Virgin Islands, Wake Island, and many more at different periods. In fact, the US is one of the four nations _(the remaining colonial powers)_ that the Special Committee on Decolonization (C-24) considers holding "*territories whose people have not yet attained a full measure of self-government*.” _(We are a colonial Power, but not as big as we once were. One of the most interesting holding we once had was Cuba (1899-1902, and 1906-1909).  A consequence of giving Cuba independence was that it almost caused a nuclear war in the Kennedy Administration.)_



Oz and the Orchestra said:


> Israel has broken more UN resolutions than Stalin, Pol Pot, and Saddam H.


*(COMMENT)*

Yeah, I have heard and seen this many times.  And in some perspective, Israel has opposed more "non-binding" resolutions then some dictators.  But to compare Israel to  Stalin, Pol Pot, and Saddam is simply ridiculous and only diminishes the credibility of your claims and accusations. 

If you have a specific accusation, then I suggest you make it & I'll address it.  But I'll say upfront, Israel is not perfect; no country of any active world participation is... So, I suspect, you can find a "Binding Resolution" that has been ignored or violated.  So go for it...



Oz and the Orchestra said:


> It is about time the US stopped blocking sanctions, and using Israel as a look out post for its middle east interests.
> The US should butt out of interfering in global hotspots and keep her interests within her own borders.
> Sooner or later the US will stop propping up Israel with finance and when on her own there will be an almighty reckoning.
> 
> ...



*(COMMENT)*

Israel is an ally of the US.  Maybe not a perfect ally, but none the less, an ally.  And like the US, one of the elements in the foundation of its independence was "religious freedoms."  The Allied Powers of the Great War, as well as, the Allied Powers of World War II, understood the plight of the Jewish People and saw a unique opportunity to correct a long-standing humanitarian issue.  And both sets of Allied Powers came to the same conclusion:



			
				A/RES/181(II) of 29 November 1947 said:
			
		

> Independent Arab and Jewish States and the Special International Regime for the City of Jerusalem, set forth in part III of this plan, shall come into existence in Palestine two months after the evacuation of the armed forces of the mandatory Power has been completed but in any case not later than 1 October 1948.  The boundaries of the Arab State, the Jewish State, and the City of Jerusalem shall be as described in parts II and III below.



This Resolution (dated 29 November 1947) is titled the "*Future government of Palestine*."  It was a nonbinding recommendation.  And either party concerned could accept or reject.  The Arab Palestinians rejected the opportunity to establish a self-governing institution.  However, the Jewish People accepted the opportunity.

​

			
				[/FONT]PALESTINE COMMISSION ADJOURNS SINE DIE[FONT=arial] said:
			
		

> During today's brief meeting, Dr. Eduardo Morgan (Panama) said that this resolution of the Assembly merely "relieves responsibility.  The Commission has not been dissolved. *In fact the resolution of last November 29 has been implemented*."



*( ∑ Ω )*

I look forward to your challenge.




Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## Oz and the Orchestra (Sep 21, 2020)

RoccoR said:


> RE: Israel's Lies
> ⁜→ Oz and the Orchestra, et al,
> 
> *BLUF: * This is an opposing view that is clear and simple, yet easily challenged.
> ...


I'm taking time to absorb your lengthy post. Need to do just a little research before I can fully take on your challenge, but I will definitely get back to you.

Oz


----------



## P F Tinmore (Sep 21, 2020)

RoccoR said:


> RE: Israel's Lies
> ⁜→ Oz and the Orchestra, et al,
> 
> *BLUF: * This is an opposing view that is clear and simple, yet easily challenged.
> ...


Why do you always side with the killers, thieves, and liars?

What is in it for you?


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Sep 21, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > RE: Israel's Lies
> ...



*Why do you always side with the killers, thieves, and liars? *

Why do you?


----------



## MJB12741 (Sep 21, 2020)

Oz and the Orchestra said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> > Oz and the Orchestra said:
> ...


Good work.  Keep it up you guys.  Need more like you to continue all the Arab countries uniting with Israel.


----------



## toastman (Sep 21, 2020)

Tinmore, you said Palestine became a state . Can you please elaborate, with a link as to when that took place?


----------



## P F Tinmore (Sep 22, 2020)

toastman said:


> Tinmore, you said Palestine became a state . Can you please elaborate, with a link as to when that took place?


I have many times but my posts were too complicated for you and they went over your head.

Here is just one,


----------



## Flash (Sep 22, 2020)

Their biggest lie was when they said they didn't attack the USS Liberty on purpose.


----------



## Hollie (Sep 22, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> toastman said:
> 
> 
> > Tinmore, you said Palestine became a state . Can you please elaborate, with a link as to when that took place?
> ...



That silly YouTube video does nothing to support your claim that the Treaty of Lausanne invented the “State of Pallyland”.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Sep 22, 2020)

Hollie said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > toastman said:
> ...


I never said it did. It was just one treaty in the process.


----------



## RoccoR (Sep 22, 2020)

RE: Israel's Lies
⁜→ P F Tinmore, toastman, et al,

*BLUF: * FOR P F Tinmore:  It is almost as if you didn't even listen to the lecture.  She explains the difference between "Citizenship" _ (as in citizen of a state)_ and Nationality_ (a relationship between the individual and international law)_.



toastman said:


> Tinmore, you said Palestine became a state . Can you please elaborate, with a link as to when that took place?





P F Tinmore said:


> I have many times but my posts were too complicated for you and they went over your head.
> Here is just one,


*(POINTS TO CONSIDER)*

Nothing contained in the present Charter shall authorize the United Nations to intervene in matters which are essentially *within the domestic jurisdiction* of any state or shall require the Members to submit such matters to settlement under the present Charter; but this principle shall not prejudice the application of enforcement measures under Chapter Vll. (ie Citizenship is Domestic Law)

Article 22 Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court
_Nullum crimen sine lege_
1. A person shall not be criminally responsible under this Statute unless the conduct in question constitutes, at the time it takes place, a crime within the jurisdiction of the Court.​2.   The  definition  of  a  crime  shall  be  strictly  construed  and  shall  not  be  extended  by analogy.  In  case  of  ambiguity,  the  definition  shall  be  interpreted  in  favour  of  the person being investigated, prosecuted or convicted.​3.   This  article  shall  not  affect  the  characterization  of  any  conduct  as  criminal  under international law independently of this Statute.​
Article 24 Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court
_Non-retroactivity ratione personae_
1. No person shall be criminally responsible under this Statute for conduct prior to the entry into force of the Statute.​2.   In the event of a change in the law applicable to a given case prior to a final judgement, the  law  more  favourable  to  the  person  being  investigated,  prosecuted  or  convicted shall apply.​​Article 12  International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights (CCPR) (1976)
1. Everyone lawfully within the territory of a State shall, within that territory, have the right to liberty of movement and freedom to choose his residence.​2. Everyone shall be free to leave any country, including his own.​3. The above-mentioned rights shall not be subject to any restrictions except those which are provided by law, are necessary to protect national security, public order (ordre public), public health or morals or the rights and freedoms of others, and are consistent with the other rights recognized in the present Covenant.​4. No one shall be arbitrarily deprived of the right to enter his own country.​*(COMMENT)*

She opens with the explains that "citizenship is domestic law, and that a state, through its internal laws determines which residents have the preferred status.  Nationality does not necessarily grant citizenship; in fact, in many cases, it does not.



			
				Parry & Grant Encyclopaedic Dictionary of International Law said:
			
		

> *citizen* In strictness, a term of municipal rather than international law, connoting membership of a political community with republican forms of government, but often employed to describe nationals even of monarchical States. (Page 96)
> 
> *nationality* This is a term of art denoting the legal connection between an individual and a State. (Page 403)



You often refer to The 1924 _(I take to mean)_ Treaty of Lausanne when speaking "Palestinian Statehood."  Noting in the Treaty establishes "statehood" in the territories under Mandate. * Nothing in the Treaty deals with "citizenship."*

This is the Paradox in her argument:

The Ottoman Empire had no Distinct Region as "Palestine."  It was the Vaylet and Sanjax, of which none had baoundaries corresponding to "Palestine" as defined by the Government of Palestine and the Mandatory in the Palestine Order in Council.  
 





Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## P F Tinmore (Sep 22, 2020)

RoccoR said:


> RE: Israel's Lies
> ⁜→ P F Tinmore, toastman, et al,
> 
> *BLUF: * FOR P F Tinmore:  It is almost as if you didn't even listen to the lecture.  She explains the difference between "Citizenship" _ (as in citizen of a state)_ and Nationality_ (a relationship between the individual and international law)_.
> ...


Holy verbosity, Batman!


RoccoR said:


> FOR P F Tinmore: It is almost as if you didn't even listen to the lecture. She explains the difference between "Citizenship" _ (as in citizen of a state)_ and Nationality_ (a relationship between the individual and international law)_.


Dr. Akram addressed citizenship and nationality.


----------



## Hollie (Sep 22, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...


What process?

link?


----------



## toastman (Sep 22, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> toastman said:
> 
> 
> > Tinmore, you said Palestine became a state . Can you please elaborate, with a link as to when that took place?
> ...


Try again Tinmore . Post a link with a date that proves Palestine be a state and when. When Palestine became a state, surely enough there should be several links supporting that, right ?


----------



## toastman (Sep 22, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...


Since you’re clearly unable to understand my question, let me make it a bit more clear for you:
WHAT YEAR DID PALESTINE BECOME A STATE??


----------



## P F Tinmore (Sep 23, 2020)

toastman said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > toastman said:
> ...





			https://repository.law.umich.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?referer=&httpsredir=1&article=1045&context=mjil


----------



## Hollie (Sep 23, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> toastman said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...


You're back to cutting and pasting Zebras again. 

A dozen or more instances of such nonsense,


----------



## RoccoR (Sep 23, 2020)

RE: Israel's Lies
⁜→ P F Tinmore, et al,

*BLUF: * This was published before 2012 and A/RES/67/19 forced a clarification of the issue.



P F Tinmore said:


> https://repository.law.umich.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?referer=&httpsredir=1&article=1045&context=mjil


*(COMMENT)*

I suggest you wipe your mind clean for a moment and read:
​◈  Attached Memo "A" to *A/AC.21/UK/42 25 February 1948*, Regarding the Legal Meaning of the Termination of the Mandate​​◈  The 2012 *UN Legal Memo Regarding A/RES/67/19* and the Status of "Palestine"​
This represents new information only available for consideration after the publication of the UM Law Journal Article by the distinguished member of my _Alma Mater_.  Pay close attention to the relationship of the PLO to the People of Arab Palestine.  I also ask you to pay very close attention to the opening paragraph by the Under-Secretary-General for Legal Affairs when she says _(prior to the adoption of A/RES/67/19)_:

Palestine was not identified as a state or a country nor could authorities be identified as a government.​This is a very critical piece of information that many Arab Palestinians want to ignore.

*( ∑Ω )*
  This is NOT my impression, but the conclusion drawn by the UN Legal Counsel.



Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## P F Tinmore (Sep 23, 2020)

RoccoR said:


> ◈ Attached Memo "A" to *A/AC.21/UK/42 25 February 1948*, Regarding the Legal Meaning of the Termination of the Mandate


2. After the 15th May, 1948, Palestine will continue to be a legal entity but it will still not be a sovereign state because it will not be immediately self-governing.​
Britain did not acquire sovereignty over Palestine. That remained in the hands of the people. How did they become the arbiter of Palestine's statehood?

The administration was to change from Britain to the UN. Britain left but the UN did not take over. Where would that governance be? The sovereignty was still in the hands of the Palestinians.

A few months later, the Palestinians declared independence on their own territory and inside their own international borders.


----------



## RoccoR (Sep 23, 2020)

RE: Israel's Lies
⁜→ P F Tinmore, et al,

*BLUF: * These are entangled political issues that were understood very well in the way Customary Law was practiced.



RoccoR said:


> ◈ Attached Memo "A" to *A/AC.21/UK/42 25 February 1948*, Regarding the Legal Meaning of the Termination of the Mandate
> 
> 2. After the 15th May, 1948, Palestine will continue to be a legal entity but it will still not be a sovereign state because it will not be immediately self-governing.​


​


P F Tinmore said:


> Britain did not acquire sovereignty over Palestine. That remained in the hands of the people. How did they become the arbiter of Palestine's statehood?
> 
> The administration was to change from Britain to the UN. Britain left but the UN did not take over. Where would that governance be? The sovereignty was still in the hands of the Palestinians.


*(COMMENT)*

The territorial sovereignty DID NOT remain in the hands of the (Arab Palestinian) People.  _(That is a patently false assumption.)_



			
				Treaty of Lasanne said:
			
		

> *Article 16 of the Treaty. *
> 
> Turkey hereby *renounces all rights and title* whatsoever over or respecting the territories situated outside the frontiers laid down in the present Treaty and the islands other than those over which her sovereignty is recognised by the said Treaty, *the future of these territories and islands being settled or to be settled by the parties concerned.*
> 
> The provisions of the present Article do not prejudice any special arrangements arising from neighbourly relations which have been or may be concluded between Turkey and any limitrophe countries.



The "rights and titlle" to the territory as well as the determination of the territorial future, by treaty, was in the hands of the Allied Powers _(parties to the Treaty)_.



			
				EXCERPT for 1920 San Remo Convention of the Allied Powers said:
			
		

> *It was agreed -*
> To accept the terms of the Mandates Article as given below with reference to Palestine, on the understanding that there was inserted in the proces-verbal an undertaking by the Mandatory Power that this would not involve the surrender of the rights hitherto enjoyed by the non-Jewish communities in Palestine; this undertaking not to refer to the question of the religious protectorate of France, which had been settled earlier in the previous afternoon by the undertaking given by the French Government that they recognized this protectorate as being at an end.





P F Tinmore said:


> A few months later, the Palestinians declared independence on their own territory and inside their own international borders.


*(COMMENT)*

You are making a mistake in fact --- not accurate either...  The International Borders were formed for the "Government of Palestine" _(an entity of the British Government)_ as established by the Allied Powers.

1.  The Arab Higher Committee rejected the opportunity for building self-governing institutions.​2.  The *All Palestine Government (APG)* was facilitated in its assembly by the Egyptian Military Governor in the Gaza Strip.​3.  The *APG attempted to declare independence* over territory that was never under its influence​4.  The APG attempted to declare independence over the sovereign of another nation.​5.  The APG attempted to declare sovereignty over the territory formerly under the Mandate and eight already part of Israel or UN Trustee Territory occupied by either Arab League Forces or Israeli Forces.​6.  The APG was dissolved by the Egyptian Government in 1959.​​The APG formed under the Flag of the Arab Revolt (1916).  At its outset, the APG was cast in the form of conflict, not peace.   I highly recommend you read the Research Paper by J Caldwell, from the Institute of Palestine Studies, the oldest non-profit NGO research institute in the Arab world.




Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## P F Tinmore (Sep 23, 2020)

RoccoR said:


> The territorial sovereignty DID NOT remain in the hands of the (Arab Palestinian) People. _(That is a patently false assumption.)_


Who then?

Link?


----------



## RoccoR (Sep 23, 2020)

RE: Israel's Lies
⁜→ P F Tinmore, et al,

*BLUF:*  You did NOT read the next answer.  Sovereignty had not yet been assigned by the Allied Powers.



RoccoR said:


> The territorial sovereignty DID NOT remain in the hands of the (Arab Palestinian) People. _(That is a patently false assumption.)_





P F Tinmore said:


> Who then?
> 
> Link?


*(COMMENT)*

In terms of the Mandate:

◈  Jordan was given sovereignty in 1946 by Treaty with the Mandatory.​◈◈  The Arab Palestinians declined (1948) to participate and did not acquire sovereignty.​◈◈◈  Israel became sovereign (1948) under the Right of Self-Determination and established a self-governing nation.​
You keep asking the same questions over and over again, as if, the answer is going to change.

The Arab Palestinians allowed the Arab League Nations to occupy the territory that was earmarked by the UN to be the Arab State.

It is still unclear whether or not there is yet exists the State of Palestine.  But in the next year (or so) that might be resolved in the courts or made irrelevant _(overtaken by events)_.



Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Sep 23, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> P F Tinmore said: In the 1949 UN Armistice Agreements, Palestine is mentioned many times. Israel is not mentioned.



Liar. Where did you go?


----------



## RoccoR (Sep 23, 2020)

RE: Israel's Lies
⁜→ P F Tinmore, et al,

*BLUF:  *Political gamesmanship.

P F Tinmore said:​P F Tinmore said: In the 1949 UN Armistice Agreements, Palestine is mentioned many times. Israel is not mentioned.​
*(COMMENT)*

Soo -- what is your point?  Say it clearly, with no ambiguity there.




Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## P F Tinmore (Sep 23, 2020)

RoccoR said:


> The International Borders were formed for the "Government of Palestine" _(an entity of the British Government)_ as established by the Allied Powers.


Then why were they referenced in the 1949 UN armistice Agreements almost a year after the Mandate left?


----------



## P F Tinmore (Sep 23, 2020)

RoccoR said:


> You did NOT read the next answer. Sovereignty had not yet been assigned by the Allied Powers.


Who has the authority to assign sovereignty?

Link?


----------



## RoccoR (Sep 23, 2020)

RE: Israel's Lies
⁜→ P F Tinmore, et al,

*BLUF:*   Most previously surveyed or registration points, especially those used to establish maps, demarcations, and boundaries for sovereignty, locations, and surface features.  And this registration point will remain on the record, in there original naming convention, no matter what sovereignty originally commissioned the survey. 




RoccoR said:


> The International Borders were formed for the "Government of Palestine" _(an entity of the British Government)_ as established by the Allied Powers.





P F Tinmore said:


> Then why were they referenced in the 1949 UN armistice Agreements almost a year after the Mandate left?


*(COMMENT)*

In terms of reference, let's use, for example, the current Egyptian-Israeli Demarcation:  "The permanent boundary* between Egypt and Israel* is the recognized international boundary between Egypt and the* former* mandated territory of Palestine, as shown on the map at Annex II, without prejudice to the issue of the status of the Gaza Strip. The Parties recognize this boundary as inviolable. Each will respect the territorial waters and airspace." 




Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## RoccoR (Sep 23, 2020)

RE: Israel's Lies
⁜→ P F Tinmore, et al,


RoccoR said:


> You did NOT read the next answer. Sovereignty had not yet been assigned by the Allied Powers.





P F Tinmore said:


> Who has the authority to assign sovereignty?
> 
> Link?


*(ANSWER)*

See Comment #1 on Posxting #327.

Those the have the Title and Rights.




Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## toastman (Sep 23, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> toastman said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...


Really Tinmore? I ask you to post proof that Palestine became a state when you said they became one, and you post some crappy article? My goodness, you truly are desperate to spread your Palestinian lies


----------



## toastman (Sep 23, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > ◈ Attached Memo "A" to *A/AC.21/UK/42 25 February 1948*, Regarding the Legal Meaning of the Termination of the Mandate
> ...


Palestine has international borders? Link?? 

I’ve already posted many links showing Israel’s international borders.. now it’s your turn .


----------



## P F Tinmore (Sep 23, 2020)

RoccoR said:


> 4. The APG attempted to declare independence over the sovereign of another nation.


Lie.


----------



## toastman (Sep 24, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > 4. The APG attempted to declare independence over the sovereign of another nation.
> ...


Where is the link that says Palestine has international borders? I’m still waiting....


----------



## P F Tinmore (Sep 24, 2020)

RoccoR said:


> RE: Israel's Lies
> ⁜→ P F Tinmore, et al,
> 
> 
> ...


Britain had title and rights?

Link?


----------



## P F Tinmore (Sep 24, 2020)

RoccoR said:


> RE: Israel's Lies
> ⁜→ P F Tinmore, et al,
> 
> *BLUF:*   Most previously surveyed or registration points, especially those used to establish maps, demarcations, and boundaries for sovereignty, locations, and surface features.  And this registration point will remain on the record, in there original naming convention, no matter what sovereignty originally commissioned the survey.
> ...





RoccoR said:


> the* former* mandated territory of Palestine,


Lebanon, Syria, Iraq, and Jordan are also former Mandated territories.

What is your point?


----------



## P F Tinmore (Sep 24, 2020)

RoccoR said:


> RE: Israel's Lies
> ⁜→ P F Tinmore, et al,
> 
> *BLUF:*   Most previously surveyed or registration points, especially those used to establish maps, demarcations, and boundaries for sovereignty, locations, and surface features.  And this registration point will remain on the record, in there original naming convention, no matter what sovereignty originally commissioned the survey.
> ...





RoccoR said:


> "The permanent boundary* between Egypt and Israel*


A treaty brokered by the US. You know, the country that illegally gave Jerusalem and the Golan to Israel.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Sep 24, 2020)

RoccoR said:


> RE: Israel's Lies
> ⁜→ P F Tinmore, et al,
> 
> *BLUF:*   Most previously surveyed or registration points, especially those used to establish maps, demarcations, and boundaries for sovereignty, locations, and surface features.  And this registration point will remain on the record, in there original naming convention, no matter what sovereignty originally commissioned the survey.
> ...


]





P F Tinmore said:


> Then why were they referenced in the 1949 UN armistice Agreements almost a year after the Mandate left?


Why did you duck my question?


----------



## RoccoR (Sep 24, 2020)

RE: Israel's Lies
⁜→ P F Tinmore, et al,

BLUF:  You are not very good at all, for keeping the timeline or the answers straight.



RoccoR said:


> You did NOT read the next answer. Sovereignty had not yet been assigned by the Allied Powers.





P F Tinmore said:


> Who has the authority to assign sovereignty?
> 
> Link?





RoccoR said:


> See Comment #1 on Posxting #327.
> 
> Those the have the Title and Rights.





P F Tinmore said:


> Britain had title and rights?
> 
> Link?


*(COMMENT)*

The Title and Rights _(Posting #327 supra)_ was renounced by the Turkishish Republic and relinquished by Treaty to the Allied Powers.  

The Allied Powers then granted the total administration of the territory of Palestine, full powers of legislation, defense of the territory, immigration, enacting a nationality law and control of the acquisition of Palestinian citizenship by Jews, facilitation of political and economic conditions, social and other matters as will secure the establishment of the Jewish national home.  The Mandatory was also responsible for seeing that the judicial system established in Palestine _(for both foreigners and inhabitants)_, and all diplomatic matters.  

There was no aspect of governance that was not assigned to the Mandatory.  The League Mandate Council essentially had total oversight through Article 22 (8) League of Nation Covenant.  It is provided that the degree of authority, control or administration to be exercised by the Mandatory, not having been previously agreed upon by the Members of the League, shall be explicitly defined by the Council of the League of Nations.

In the case of Jordanian sovereignty, Article 1 of the UK-Jordanian Treaty of 1946, the King of England recognized the Emir as the sovereign:






​



Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## P F Tinmore (Sep 24, 2020)

RoccoR said:


> RE: Israel's Lies
> ⁜→ P F Tinmore, et al,
> 
> BLUF:  You are not very good at all, for keeping the timeline or the answers straight.
> ...





RoccoR said:


> The Allied Powers then granted the total administration of the territory of Palestine, full powers of legislation,


Military control is not title and rights.


RoccoR said:


> In the case of Jordanian sovereignty, Article 1 of the UK-Jordanian Treaty of 1946, the King of England recognized the Emir as the sovereign:


Where is the treaty between the UK and Israel?

Link?


----------



## RoccoR (Sep 24, 2020)

RE: Israel's Lies
⁜→ P F Tinmore, et al,

BLUF:  Here again, you've made a timeline mistake of fact.



RoccoR said:


> In the case of Jordanian sovereignty, Article 1 of the UK-Jordanian Treaty of 1946, the King of England recognized the Emir as the sovereign:





P F Tinmore said:


> Where is the treaty between the UK and Israel?
> 
> Link?


*(COMMENT)*

There was no treaty because the National Council for the Jewish State had applied for recognition to the UN Palestine Commission for a time after the departure of the Mandatory.  Israel was created under the umbrella of self-determination and the recommendation of the UN Special Committee for Palestine.



Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## Hollie (Sep 24, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > RE: Israel's Lies
> ...


Why was there a need for a treaty?

Link?


----------



## Hollie (Sep 24, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > RE: Israel's Lies
> ...


When did the US illegally (or otherwise) give Jerusalem and the Golan to Israel?

Link?


----------



## Hollie (Sep 24, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...


What process?

Link?

Why do you continuously duck the question regarding ''how did the Treaty of Lausanne invent the country of Pally'land''?


----------



## toastman (Sep 24, 2020)

Hollie said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Hollie said:
> ...


He also ducked two of my questions: a link to Palestine becoming a state when he said they did and a link to Palestine’s alleged international borders ....


----------



## Hollie (Sep 24, 2020)

toastman said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...


He's scouring YouTube for a video.


----------



## Ropey (Sep 24, 2020)

Sunni Man said:


> The zionist Israeli pukes have created a gigantic lie to explain how their theft of other people's land wasn't really theft.  ...








^It comes.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Sep 24, 2020)

RoccoR said:


> RE: Israel's Lies
> ⁜→ P F Tinmore, et al,
> 
> BLUF:  Here again, you've made a timeline mistake of fact.
> ...


Israel did not comply to the UN.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Sep 24, 2020)

toastman said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...











						Genesis of Citizenship in Palestine and Israel
					

Introduction This paper addresses the status of the inhabitants of the territory that has become known as ‘Palestine’ and that had been part of the Ottoman Empire since 1516, during the period star...




					journals.openedition.org


----------



## Hollie (Sep 25, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> toastman said:
> 
> 
> > Hollie said:
> ...


Oh, my. Not that silly article, again.


----------



## RoccoR (Sep 25, 2020)

RE: Israel's Lies
⁜→ P F Tinmore, et al,

*BLUF:  *

◈  What "Compliance requirement was not met?"  You've said this many times over the years, but you never really cite what "Binding" Compliance requirement you are talking about relative to the Independence issue.​​◈  The independence process was accepted by the Jewish Agency (JA); but, rejected by the Arab Higher Committee (AHC).  The JA did meet the Charter expectations and the Montevideo Convention, however, the AHC and Arab League were in violation of the Charter by the actual "use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence."​​◈  The AHC (Arab Palestinians) has very questionable standing on any issue pertaining to Jewish Independence because the Arab Palestinian through the AHC rejected the joint participation in the establishment of self-governing institutions.  The Arab Palestinians cannot start a fight, and then file a grievance because they lost in combat.​


RoccoR said:


> In the case of Jordanian sovereignty, Article 1 of the UK-Jordanian Treaty of 1946, the King of England recognized the Emir as the sovereign:





P F Tinmore said:


> Where is the treaty between the UK and Israel?
> 
> Link?


*(COMMENT)*


RoccoR said:


> There was no treaty because the National Council for the Jewish State had applied for recognition to the UN Palestine Commission for a time after the departure of the Mandatory.  Israel was created under the umbrella of self-determination and the recommendation of the UN Special Committee for Palestine.





P F Tinmore said:


> Israel did not comply to the UN.


*(COMMENT)*

Remember, A/RES/181(II) • 29 NOV 47 • Future Government of Palestine was a recommendation adopted by the UN General Assembly. The National Council for the Jewish State had applied for recognition to the UN Palestine Commission (UNPC), the appointed successor government. AND the UNPC, acting as an operating agency of the Security Council_ (Part I, Section B, Paragrpah 14, "The Commission shall be guided in its activities by the recommendations of the General Assembly and by such instructions as the Security Council may consider necessary to issue.")_, reported: "In fact the resolution of last November 29 has been implemented. _(sic)_"

The Arab Palestinian has no standing in determining, well after the fact, that the independence of Israel is not consistent with customary interpretations a half-century later.  Just because the Arab Palestinians do not think the  National Council for the Jewish State met today's Arab Palestinian interpretation on what should have happened, does not mean that they have cause for redress.  In general, there is no instant replay, in the outcome of a conflict 5, 10, 25 or 50 years after the fact, and grounds to demand a reinterpretation of the facts.  Just as it is impossible now to reinterpret the incorporation of Tibet, the annexation of the Crimea, or the Chinese establishment of artificial islands in the South China Sea.




Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## P F Tinmore (Sep 25, 2020)

RoccoR said:


> Remember, A/RES/181(II) • 29 NOV 47 • Future Government of Palestine was a recommendation adopted by the UN General Assembly.


Then there is the question you always duck.

B.  STEPS PREPARATORY TO INDEPENDENCE 

There are 15 steps. Which ones were implemented?

Then there is:

*Chapter 3*

_Citizenship, international conventions and financial obligations_​
   1.    Citizenship.  Palestinian citizens residing in Palestine outside the City of Jerusalem, as well as Arabs and Jews who, not holding Palestinian citizenship, reside in Palestine outside the City of Jerusalem *shall, upon the recognition of independence, become citizens of the State in which they are resident and enjoy full civil and political rights. 

I await your duck.*


----------



## P F Tinmore (Sep 25, 2020)

RoccoR said:


> ◈ The independence process was accepted by the Jewish Agency (JA); but, rejected by the Arab Higher Committee (AHC). The JA did meet the Charter expectations and the Montevideo Convention,


Where is Israel's defined territory?

Link?


----------



## Hollie (Sep 25, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > ◈ The independence process was accepted by the Jewish Agency (JA); but, rejected by the Arab Higher Committee (AHC). The JA did meet the Charter expectations and the Montevideo Convention,
> ...


The territory over which it holds sovereignty. The territory delineated by borders defined by treaty.

What territory is held as sovereign by either of the Islamic terrorist enclaves?

link?


----------



## P F Tinmore (Sep 25, 2020)

Hollie said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > RoccoR said:
> ...





Hollie said:


> The territory over which it holds sovereignty. The territory delineated by borders defined by treaty.


What treaty?

Link?


----------



## RoccoR (Sep 25, 2020)

RE: Israel's Lies
⁜→ P F Tinmore, et al,



RoccoR said:


> Remember, A/RES/181(II) • 29 NOV 47 • Future Government of Palestine was a recommendation adopted by the UN General Assembly.





P F Tinmore said:


> Then there is the question you always duck.
> 
> There are 15 steps. Which ones were implemented?


*(RESPONSE)*

1. Completed as was made possible.

2.  The CHAIRMAN stated that, until the termination of the Mandate, the Mandatory Power alone was responsible for the maintenance of law and order in Palestine. A militia could not be established until the termination of the Mandate.  A/AC.21/SR.23  28 January 1948

3. Nullified by the outbreak of hostilities.

4.  Accepted and completed by Jewish Agency - Rejected by Arab Higher Committee (AHC)

5.   Accepted and completed by Jewish Agency - Rejected by Arab Higher Committee (AHC)
Terminated on the outbreak of hostilities.

6.   Accepted and was in process by Jewish Agency - Rejected by Arab Higher Committee (AHC).
Altered on the outbreak of hostilities and the final resting place of the FEBA.

7.   Accepted and completed by Jewish Agency - Rejected by Arab Higher Committee (AHC)
Terminated on the outbreak of hostilities.

8.  Altered on the outbreak of hostilities IDF vs Arab League.

9.  Accepted and was in process by Jewish Agency.  AHC had no territory.  Arab League established an Occupation or Military Government.

10.  Accepted and was in process by Jewish Agency - Rejected by Arab Higher Committee (AHC).  Altered on the outbreak of hostilities IDF vs Arab League.  Amended by the Armistice.

11.   Accepted and completed by Jewish Agency - Rejected by Arab Higher Committee (AHC)

12.  Altered on the outbreak of hostilities IDF vs Arab League.

13.  Altered on the outbreak of hostilities IDF vs Arab League.

14.  Altered on the outbreak of hostilities IDF vs Arab League.

15.  Completed by UNPC.



P F Tinmore said:


> Then there is:  _Citizenship, international conventions and financial obligations_


*(RESPONSE)*

1.  I am not aware of any disinfranchised Arab Palestinians, after 15 May 48.

2.  _Citizenship, international conventions and financial obligations_

(a)  The State of Israel _(to the best of my knowledge)_ became bound by all the international agreements and conventions and did not renounce any agreements made prior to 15 May.​​(b)  The State of Israel _(to the best of my knowledge)_ did not need to make a refferal or claim to the International Court of Justice in accordance with the provisions of the Statute of the Court.​
3.  The State of Israel _(to the best of my knowledge)_ assumed all Financial obligations incurred by the Mandatory.

*(COMMENT)*

Within the practical limits within the territory in conflict, to the best of my knowledge, Israel has attempted to treat all the habitual residence, on the Israeli side of the Armistice Lines, with the dignity accorded any other citizen, pursuant to the Basic Law of Israel.  I know no difference or distinctions made that are not covered by the Basic Law or adjudicated by the courts. 
​   1.    Freedom to worship,

   2.    No discrimination,

   3.     Equal protection of the laws.

   4.    The family law and personal status of the various minorities and their religious interests, including endowments, are respected.

   5.    No laws were passed to obstruct or interfere with the enterprise of religious or charitable bodies, operating legally under the Rule of Law.

   6.    Israel attempts to ensure adequate primary and secondary education for the Arab and Jewish minority, respectively, in its own language and its cultural traditions.

   7.    No restriction freedoms of speech, except those that incite violence or endanger pubic order.

   8.    No expropriation of land owned by an Arab in the Jewish State.

Now I AM not an Israeli citizen.  So there may be some aspect I am not aware of.  I don't pretend to cite this issues under the guise of a Member of the Bar.  I am not practicing law.  But as a layman, I will defend the country highest on the Human Development Index for a thousand miles in any inland direction.



Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## Hollie (Sep 25, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...


The treaties With Egypt and Lebanon should get you started. Links have been supplied countless times. 

What territory is held as sovereign by either of the Islamic terrorist enclaves?

Link?


----------



## P F Tinmore (Sep 25, 2020)

RoccoR said:


> Within the practical limits within the territory in conflict, to the best of my knowledge, Israel has attempted to treat all the habitual residence, on the Israeli side of the Armistice Lines, with the dignity accorded any other citizen,


Habitual residents are all of the people who normally lived there before the war.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Sep 25, 2020)

RoccoR said:


> 2. The CHAIRMAN stated that, until the termination of the Mandate, the Mandatory Power alone was responsible for the maintenance of law and order in Palestine. A militia could not be established until the termination of the Mandate. A/AC.21/SR.23 28 January 1948


Israel's military expelled about 300,000 Palestinians before the Mandate left.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Sep 25, 2020)

RoccoR said:


> RE: Israel's Lies
> ⁜→ P F Tinmore, et al,
> 
> 
> ...


There are 15 steps. Which ones were implemented?\

Virtually none.


----------



## Hollie (Sep 25, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > RE: Israel's Lies
> ...


Indeed, you offer nothing to support your claim.


----------



## toastman (Sep 25, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> toastman said:
> 
> 
> > Hollie said:
> ...


Uhh, there is not a single mention of Palestine alleged international borders . You know why ? Because they don’t exist.


----------



## toastman (Sep 25, 2020)

Hollie said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Hollie said:
> ...


Arguing with Tinmore is like arguing with a little child. There’s just no point to it. He can’t accept the truth .


----------



## P F Tinmore (Sep 25, 2020)

RoccoR said:


> 8. No expropriation of land owned by an Arab in the Jewish State.


Israel has a system for stealing Palestinian land.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Sep 25, 2020)

toastman said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > toastman said:
> ...


First you have to read it. Did you try that?

In international law, when a state is dissolved and new states are established, “the population follows the change of sovereignty in matters of nationality.”5 As a rule, therefore, citizens of the former state should automatically acquire the nationality of the successor state in which they had already been residing. 


Upon its detachment from the Ottomans, the territory of Palestine became distinct from its neighboring countries.6In fact, this separation began between Palestine and the newly created Arab ‘states’: Trans-Jordan (as it was called), Egypt, Syria, and Lebanon.7 Soon thereafter, Palestine’s frontiers acquired permanent recognition through bilateral agreements with its neighbors. Following the international legal framework that had been established by the 1923 Treaty of Lausanne ending the Ottoman nominal/official sovereignty over the Arab Middle East, each of the four countries instituted a separate nationality for its population through domestic legislation. Nationalities in these countries have since then become well established.

7Nationality constitutes a legal bond that connects individuals with a specific territory, making them citizens of that territory. It is therefore imperative to examine the boundaries of Palestine in order to define the piece of land on which Palestinian nationality was established. Determining borders will also help us identify the new nationalities of the inhabitants in the neighboring countries who were Ottoman citizens as well. Such a determination will thus identify, by exclusion, those who held Palestinian nationality.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Sep 25, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > 8. No expropriation of land owned by an Arab in the Jewish State.
> ...



_Israel has a system for stealing Palestinian land. _

No such thing.


----------



## Hollie (Sep 26, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > 8. No expropriation of land owned by an Arab in the Jewish State.
> ...


What system?

link?

What sovereign Pali land is being stolen?

link?


----------



## Hollie (Sep 26, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> toastman said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



False.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Sep 26, 2020)

Hollie said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > toastman said:
> ...


Link?


----------



## RoccoR (Sep 26, 2020)

RE: Israel's Lies
⁜→ P F Tinmore, et al,

An Opposing View...  *IF* you know all this, *THEN* jump right to the end "COMMENT" section and the conclusion.

*BLUF:*  The matter of citizenship and nationality of the Arab Palestinians were handled in accordance with international law.

*BTW:* I have read the applicable and non-applicable Conventions. I'm just wondering if you have?



P F Tinmore said:


> First you have to read it. Did you try that?
> 
> In international law, when a state is dissolved and new states are established, “the population follows the change of sovereignty in matters of nationality.”5 As a rule, therefore, citizens of the former state should automatically acquire the nationality of the successor state in which they had already been residing.





Hollie said:


> False.


*(REFERENCE)*

What does a “succession of states” means: the replacement of one State by another in the responsibility for the international relations of territory.  In our discussion, that would be the Government of Palestine (GoP).  The GoP was established by the Mandatory selected by the Allied Powers to handle the administration of the territory of Palestine, which formerly belonged to the Turkish Empire, within such boundaries as may be fixed by Mandatory.  Allied Powers had selected the British Government as the Mandatory for Palestine; have full powers of legislation and of administration.

◈  Vienna Convention on Succession of States in respect of Treaties (1978)​​◈  Convention Relating to the Status of Refugees • Resolution 2198 ( XXI )  (1951 - 1967)​
The limits of the Palestine Order in Council applied to the territories to which the Mandate for Palestineapplies, hereinafter described as Palestine.

*(PREFACE)*

First, the case of "nationality."  Convention on Refugee Status does not apply to those:

Who are at present receiving from organs or agencies of the United Nations other than the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees protection or assistance.  In this case: the United Nations Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees in the Near East (UNRWA).​​Who is recognized by the competent authorities of the country in which he has taken residence as having the rights and obligations which are attached to the possession of the nationality of that country.  In this case Chairman Mahmoud Abbas, Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO) and President of the State of Palestine (AKA: Palestine).  (In the first case, the sole representative of the Palestinian People, and in the second place, the Head of State.)​
The provisions of the Convention on Refugee Status shall not apply to any person with respect to whom there are serious reasons for considering that:

(a) has committed a crime against peace, a war crime, or a crime against humanity, as defined in the international instruments drawn up to make provision in respect of such crimes;​​(b) has committed a serious non-political crime outside the country of refuge prior to his admission to that country as a refugee;​​(c) has been guilty of acts contrary to the purposes and principles of the United Nations.​
The Convention on Refugee Status shall cease to apply to any person:

(a)  Having lost his nationality, he has voluntarily re-acquired it; ​​(b)  Has acquired a new nationality, and enjoys the protection of the country of his new nationality;​
The Convention on Succession of States applies only to the effects of a succession of States occurring in conformity with international law and, in particular, the principles of international law embodied in the Charter of the United Nations.

For the purposes of this Palestine Legislative Council Election Order (1922) and pending the introduction of an Order in Council regulating Palestinian citizenship, the following persons shall be deemed to be Palestinian citizens:

(a)  Turkish subjects habitually resident in the territory of Palestine at the date of commencement of this Order.​​(b)  All persons of other than Turkish nationality habitually resident in the territory of Palestine at the said date, who shall within two calendar months of the said date make application for Palestinian citizenship in such form and before such officer as may be prescribed by the High Commissioner.​
*Unification of the Two Banks*

Arabs of the West Bank were equally represented. Thirteen days later, Parliament unanimously approved a motion to unite the two banks of the Jordan River, constitutionally expanding the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan in order to safeguard what was left of the Arab territory of Palestine from further    Zionist expansion.​​The Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan now included nearly one and a half million people, more than half a million of whom were refugees evicted from Jewish-occupied Palestine. All automatically became citizens of Jordan, a right that had first been offered in December 1949 to all Palestinians who wished to claim it. Although the Arab League opposed this plan, and no other Arab government followed Jordan’s lead, the Hashemite Kingdom offered the possibility of normal life for many people who would have otherwise remained stateless refugees.​​*State of Palestine*

The current Government (of the State of Palestine) was sworn in by the President of the State of Palestine, Mr. Mahmoud Abbas, on 2 June 2014.​
*Article 72003 Amended Basic Law The Amended Basic Law*

Palestinian citizenship shall be regulated by law.​​For the purposes of this law, a person shall be considered Palestinian: ​​a.    If he/she was born in  Palestine with borders defined in the  British Mandate era, or was entitled to acquire the Palestinian nationality under the applicable laws.  ​​b.  If he/she was born in the  Gaza  Strip or the  West  Bank,  including  Holy  Jerusalem.  ​​c.  If one of his/her ancestors falls under the application of paragraph (1) above irrespective of where he/she was born.​​ d.  If he/she is a spouse of a Palestinian as defined above. ​​e.  If he/she has not acquired Israeli nationality. ​
*Article 28  2003 Amended Basic Law The Amended Basic Law*

No Palestinian may be deported from the homeland, prevented or prohibited from returning to or leaving it, deprived of his citizenship, or handed over to any foreign entity.​
*(COMMENT)*

As you can see, the nationality and citizenship of the Palestinians has not been constant.  It has been changed.  Currently, all neither the Convention of Secession nor Refugees applies because by Palestinian Basic Law, because they are covered under the PLO and State Government as nationals and citizens.  They were "citizens of Jordan" at one time.  Then they were once citizens of the Mandate GoP.    However, you unpack the entangled mess, it is clear today that the Arab Palestinians forfeited their citizenship rights of previous regimes in favor of citizenship with Mahmoud Abbas.

And there you go...



Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## P F Tinmore (Sep 26, 2020)

RoccoR said:


> What does a “succession of states” means: the replacement of one State by another in the responsibility for the international relations of territory. In our discussion, that would be the Government of Palestine (GoP).


The Mandates did not have title and rights. They did not acquire sovereignty over the territory they administered.

You keep confusing military control with sovereignty.


----------



## toastman (Sep 26, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> toastman said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...


Yup, I read it. Nowhere does it mention Palestine’s international borders and what they are. They don’t exist . Palestine does not have any borders. Palestine was never a state .


----------



## P F Tinmore (Sep 26, 2020)

toastman said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > toastman said:
> ...


It was a long article. I posted a small portion. Reading further would answer your questions. That is why there is a link.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Sep 26, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > RE: Israel's Lies
> ...



*In the 1949 UN Armistice Agreements, Palestine is mentioned many times. Israel is not mentioned. Palestine's international borders are referenced. No borders are mentioned.for Israel.*






Liar!!!


----------



## RoccoR (Sep 26, 2020)

RE: Israel's Lies
⁜→ P F Tinmore, et al,

*BLUF:*  I thought you said you knew all this_*!*_



RoccoR said:


> What does a “succession of states” means: the replacement of one State by another in the responsibility for the international relations of territory. In our discussion, that would be the Government of Palestine (GoP).





P F Tinmore said:


> The Mandates did not have title and rights. They did not acquire sovereignty over the territory they administered.
> 
> You keep confusing military control with sovereignty.


*(COMMENT)*

First:  I did not mention "sovereignty."  So, get off that path.  You are just trying to confuse the discussion group.

Second:  Pay close attention...  _Because it dawned on me → that you do not know what "successor state" actually means._



			
				Vienna Convention on Succession of States in respect of treaties said:
			
		

> Article 2(1b)
> “*succession of states*” means the replacement of one State by another in the responsibility for the international relations of territory;"


..............................................................................................compared to →


			
				Mandate for Palestine said:
			
		

> Article 12
> The *Mandatory shall be entrusted* with the control of the foreign relations of Palestine and the right to issue exequaturs to consuls appointed by foreign Powers. He shall also be entitled to afford diplomatic and consular protection to citizens of Palestine when outside its territorial limit.






Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## P F Tinmore (Sep 26, 2020)

RoccoR said:


> RE: Israel's Lies
> ⁜→ P F Tinmore, et al,
> 
> *BLUF:*  I thought you said you knew all this_*!*_
> ...


Huh?


----------



## Hollie (Sep 26, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > RE: Israel's Lies
> ...


It's remarkable that you still don't understand that subject matter.


----------



## Hollie (Sep 26, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > What does a “succession of states” means: the replacement of one State by another in the responsibility for the international relations of territory. In our discussion, that would be the Government of Palestine (GoP).
> ...


You keep confusing cut and paste slogans with relevant commentary.


----------



## RoccoR (Sep 26, 2020)

RE: Israel's Lies
⁜→ P F Tinmore, Toddsterpatriot, et al,

*BLUF: * You (P F Tinmore) are so confused. Why don't you listen to "Toddsterpatriot and Hollie" They are trying to help you understand.



Toddsterpatriot said:


> *In the 1949 UN Armistice Agreements, Palestine is mentioned many times. Israel is not mentioned. Palestine's international borders are referenced. No borders are mentioned.for Israel.*
> 
> View attachment 393130
> 
> Liar!!!


*(COMMENT)*

1.  Both Armistice Lines and Boundaries/Borders are in the family known as "Demarcations."
2.  ALL Demarcations are respected the same way by solemn Declaration.

In the Declaration each state Solemnly proclaims as two of the principles:

​


			
				Declaration on Principles of International Law concerning Friendly Relations and Co-operation among States said:
			
		

> *Paragraph 1 Clause 4*​Every State has the duty to refrain from the threat or use of force to violate the existing international boundaries of another State or as a means of solving international disputes, including territorial disputes and problems concerning frontiers of States. ​


​​


			
				Declaration on Principles of International Law concerning Friendly Relations and Co-operation among States said:
			
		

> *Paragraph 1 Clause 5*​Every State likewise has the duty to refrain from the threat or use of force to violate international lines of demarcation, such as armistice lines, established by or pursuant to an international agreement to which it is a party or which it is otherwise bound to respect. Nothing in the foregoing shall be construed as prejudicing the positions of the parties concerned with regard to the status and effects of such lines under their special regimes or as affecting their temporary character.​​


​
In the case of Palestine - the Armistice:  shall remain in force until a peaceful settlement between the Parties is achieved.  The "Peaceful Settlements" are the Treaties (or other agreements).  And the Treaties set the international boundaries. At that point → the Armistice Agreements become so much history.




Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## P F Tinmore (Sep 26, 2020)

RoccoR said:


> RE: Israel's Lies
> ⁜→ P F Tinmore, Toddsterpatriot, et al,
> 
> *BLUF: * You (P F Tinmore) are so confused. Why don't you listen to "Toddsterpatriot and Hollie" They are trying to help you understand.
> ...


OK, but if the armistice line runs through Palestine, which side are they not allowed to be on. It doesn't divide Palestine into two countries. Of it did it would be a border.


----------



## toastman (Sep 26, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> toastman said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...


Nice duck Tinmore. I read the article .NOWHERE does it mention Palestine’s current international borders. Keep up the lies. And keep ducking my questions.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Sep 26, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > RE: Israel's Lies
> ...



*OK, but if the armistice line runs through Palestine,  *

Who did Palestine sign an armistice agreement with in 1949?
Which Palestinians signed? 
Link?


----------



## P F Tinmore (Sep 26, 2020)

toastman said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > toastman said:
> ...





toastman said:


> Palestine’s current international borders.


What does that mean?


----------



## P F Tinmore (Sep 26, 2020)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > RoccoR said:
> ...


The armistice lines controlled military forces. Palestine had no military and was not a part of the 1948 war.


----------



## toastman (Sep 26, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> toastman said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...


I’m asking you to back up your earlier post about Palestine having international borders.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Sep 26, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> Toddsterpatriot said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



*The armistice lines controlled military forces. *

The lines in the agreements that mention Israel? 
The agreements signed by Israelis?

*Palestine had no military *

And wasn't a country.


----------



## toastman (Sep 26, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> Toddsterpatriot said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...


No shit. Palestine was not a country, so how could they have been part of the war or have had a military ?????


----------



## P F Tinmore (Sep 26, 2020)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Toddsterpatriot said:
> ...


Interesting opinion.


----------



## MJB12741 (Sep 26, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > 8. No expropriation of land owned by an Arab in the Jewish State.
> ...



This is the part I don't get.  The Palestinians living on the land invaded it without any titles or deeds & yet it  is Israel who stole it.  Oh well, Palestinian mentality is what it is.


----------



## Hollie (Sep 26, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> Toddsterpatriot said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



When was the ''country of Pally'land'' invented?

Link?


----------



## Hollie (Sep 26, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> Toddsterpatriot said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...


Palestine was a loosely defined geographic area


----------



## MJB12741 (Sep 26, 2020)

Hollie said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Toddsterpatriot said:
> ...


Maybe it was when the Zionists built their wailing wall around the Al Aqsa Mosque.  Let us ask Tinmore or Sunni Man.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Sep 26, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> Interesting opinion.



You're free to post your proof that it was.
After failing for more than a decade, I don't hold out much hope for you.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Sep 27, 2020)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Interesting opinion.
> ...


I have many times. Don't blame me for your reading comprehension problems.

Nobody has proven that it is not. Just some Israeli say so.


----------



## BothWings (Sep 27, 2020)

Dogmaphobe said:


> Good thing this thread wasn't titled "Tinmore's Lies", otherwise we might be at it for a while.
> 
> Yes, you hate Jews and you have mentioned many times that you want them killed.  The fact remains that there has been an uninterrupted Jewish presense in the area for over 3000 years.




The point isnt that there has always been.Jewish presence there (which is true), the point is that the military power of other countries was sold to give them ultimate superiority there when they are no more entitled than several other ethnic groups who can also make the same claim.


----------



## BothWings (Sep 27, 2020)

I guess the Mossad would have alot to gain by framing the 9/11 attacks in the U.S. on Muslims.. They would elicit the military support of the U.S. for years to push around Israel's Muslim neighbors. That is EXACTLY how it panned out and the motive sticks out like.a sore thumb.


----------



## toastman (Sep 27, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> Toddsterpatriot said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...


Every poster proves you wrong every single time you post a lie. You got nothing but Palestinian propaganda Tinmore


----------



## toastman (Sep 27, 2020)

I never laughed so hard after Tinmore posted that no one proved him wrong. Thanks for the laugh Tinnie !!


----------



## Hollie (Sep 27, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> Nobody has proven that it is not. Just some Israeli say so.



It has been proven that it is not. You have not disproved that.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Sep 27, 2020)

Hollie said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Nobody has proven that it is not. Just some Israeli say so.
> ...


Israeli talking point.


----------



## Hollie (Sep 27, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...


Failure on your part.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Sep 27, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> Toddsterpatriot said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



*I have many times.  *

You have failed many times.  

*Nobody has proven that it is not. *

Remember when you said Israel wasn't mentioned once in the armistice agreements
and I showed it was mentioned in all of them? Durr.


----------



## RoccoR (Sep 27, 2020)

RE: Israel's Lies
⁜→ P F Tinmore, Toddsterpatriot, et al,

*(COMMENT)*

OK, my "Old Timers Syndrome" has kicked-in.  What are we  Proving or Disproving?




Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Sep 27, 2020)

RoccoR said:


> RE: Israel's Lies
> ⁜→ P F Tinmore, Toddsterpatriot, et al,
> 
> *(COMMENT)*
> ...



*Tinny>>>Palestine had no military*

Todd>>>And wasn't a country.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Sep 27, 2020)

RoccoR said:


> RE: Israel's Lies
> ⁜→ P F Tinmore, Toddsterpatriot, et al,
> 
> *(COMMENT)*
> ...


I hear a gazillion times that Palestine is not a country or state and that's it. There is nothing to substantiate their opinion.


----------



## Hollie (Sep 27, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > RE: Israel's Lies
> ...



It’s not an opinion.


----------



## RoccoR (Sep 27, 2020)

RE: Israel's Lies
⁜→ P F Tinmore,  et al,

Oh, → you are so full of defecated material.



P F Tinmore said:


> I hear a gazillion times that Palestine is not a country or state and that's it. There is nothing to substantiate their opinion.


*(COMMENT)*

You have nothing to support your version of the truth; except for that lame-ass argument where you try to apply a Clause on "naturalization" to the disposition of territory, and the improper application to the Rule of succession.

Evidence in Play as substantiated:

◈  See* Posting #375* and *Posting #380* as it pertains to the Government of Palestine (ie British Government) as the successor Government.​​◈  See * A/AC.21/UK/42  25 February 1948* wherein the Mandate Government of Palestine makes the notification of the impending Successor Government.​​◈  See* Posting #325* as it pertains to the Status of Palestine in relation to the December 2012 UN change in status.​
You ignore the facts of specific and direct evidence.  Of course the most compelling of the evidence is the statement by the Mandate Government of Palestine when it said:  "Palestine will continue to be a legal entity *but it will still not be a sovereign state* because it will not be immediately self-governing."

I simply do not know how much more substantiated the evidence must be?  How much plainer can it be:  "*but it will still not be a sovereign state"*

The 21st Century Questions are: 

◈   When did the territory become self-governing at the hands of the Arab Palestinians?​​◈  What described that territory in which the Arab Palestinians claim to the self-governing authority?​​◈  What agency assumed the status of a functioning government over what particular territory?​
What evidence do you have that challenges all these documented facts?  There is actually a pretty sturdy argument to be made that the Hashemite Kingdom actually had the last of the sovereign control over the West Bank and Jerusalem _(ie NOT the Arab Palestinians)_.




Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## toastman (Sep 27, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > RE: Israel's Lies
> ...


Actually, it’s quite the opposite. YOU claim that Palestine was a state before Israel , yet have never proved it. 
You truly are a hoot Tinmore. I have never seen someone lose so many arguments and have so many of their posts disproved until I met you.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Sep 27, 2020)

RoccoR said:


> The 21st Century Questions are:
> 
> ◈ When did the territory become self-governing at the hands of the Arab Palestinians?◈ What described that territory in which the Arab Palestinians claim to the self-governing authority?◈ What agency assumed the status of a functioning government over what particular territory?


These could be the description of a military occupation.

You always confuse military occupation with sovereignty.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Sep 27, 2020)

toastman said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > RoccoR said:
> ...


More Israeli hogwash. You have presented nothing.


----------



## Mindful (Sep 28, 2020)

toastman said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > RoccoR said:
> ...



For the umpteenth time. Why do I bother?

Was Palestine ever recognized as an entity by another country?  By whom?  What was the language of the country called Palestine?  What was Palestine's religion?  What was the name of its currency?  

Who was the president- head of state?

Since there is no such country today, what caused her demise?


----------



## Hollie (Sep 28, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > The 21st Century Questions are:
> ...


These are not the description of a military occupation.

You're always confused about what constitutes a legitimate argument.


----------



## Hollie (Sep 28, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> toastman said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...


Nice duck.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Sep 28, 2020)

Mindful said:


> toastman said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...


A LoN arbitration stated that Palestine was a newly created state according to post war treaties.

The US had a trade agreement with Palestine in 1932.

Even though recognition was not required, five states recognized Palestine after its 1948 declaration of independence.


----------



## Mindful (Sep 28, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> Mindful said:
> 
> 
> > toastman said:
> ...



Who was the head of state?


----------



## Hollie (Sep 28, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> Mindful said:
> 
> 
> > toastman said:
> ...


That’s so silly.

Why are the Arabs-Moslems masquerading as Pals still screeching about wanting statehood?

link?


----------



## P F Tinmore (Sep 28, 2020)

Hollie said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Mindful said:
> ...


Are they? I have posted many Palestinian videos. How many talked about seeking a state?


----------



## RoccoR (Sep 28, 2020)

RE: Israel's Lies
⁜→ P F Tinmore,  et al,

BLUF:  OH, come on:
​Article 1. Palestine is the homeland of the Arab Palestinian people; it is *an indivisible part of the greater Arab homeland*, and the Palestinian people are an integral *part of the Arab nation*.​​Article 2: Palestine, with the *boundaries it had during the British Mandate*, is an indivisible territorial unit.​​Article 3: The Palestinian Arab people possess the *legal right to their homeland and to self-determination after the completion of the liberation of their country* in accordance with their wishes and entirely of their own accord and will.​*₪₪₪₪₪₪₪₪₪₪₪₪₪₪₪₪₪₪₪₪₪₪₪₪₪₪₪₪₪₪₪₪₪₪₪₪₪₪₪₪₪*​
Article 6:  The Islamic Resistance Movement is a distinguished Palestinian movement, whose allegiance is to Allah, and whose way of life is Islam. It strives to *raise the banner of Allah over every inch of Palestine*, for under the wing of Islam followers of all religions can coexist in security and safety where their lives, possessions and rights are concerned. In the absence of Islam, strife will be rife, oppression spreads, evil prevails and schisms and wars will break out.

Article 11:  The Islamic Resistance Movement believes that the land of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf consecrated for future Moslem generations until Judgement Day. It, or any part of it, should not be squandered: it, or any part of it, should not be given up. Neither a single Arab country nor all Arab countries, neither any king or president, nor all the kings and presidents, neither any organization nor all of them, be they Palestinian or Arab, possess the right to do that. Palestine is an Islamic Waqf land consecrated for Moslem generations until Judgement Day. This being so, who could claim to have the right to represent Moslem generations till Judgement Day?

This is the law governing the land of Palestine in the Islamic Sharia (law) and the same goes for any land the Moslems have conquered by force, because during the times of (Islamic) conquests, the Moslems consecrated these lands to Moslem generations till the Day of Judgement.

Article 13:  There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors. The Palestinian people know better than to consent to having their future, rights and fate toyed with. As in said in the honorable Hadith:

*₪₪₪₪₪₪₪₪₪₪₪₪₪₪₪₪₪₪₪₪₪₪₪₪₪₪₪₪₪₪₪₪₪₪₪₪₪₪₪₪₪*​
1. *Palestine from the river to the sea, and from north to south*, is a land of the Palestinian people and its homeland and its legitimate right, we may not a waiver an inch or any part thereof, no matter what the reasons and circumstances and pressures. 

2. Palestine - *all of Palestine* - is a land of Islamic and Arab affiliation, a blessed sacred land, that has a major portion in the heart of every Arab and Muslim

3. No recognition of the legitimacy of the occupation whatever; this is a principled position, political and moral, and therefore do not recognize the legitimacy of the Israeli occupation of Palestine, and recognition of "Israel" and the legitimacy of its presence on any part of Palestine no matter how long; nand it will not be long, God willing.

4. *Liberation of Palestine is a national duty*; it is the responsibility of the Palestinian people and the Arab and Islamic nation, it is also a humanitarian responsibility in accordance with the requirements of truth and justice. 

5. *Jihad and the armed resistance is the right and real method for the liberation of Palestine*, and the restoration of all the rights,   together with, of course, all forms of political and diplomatic struggle including in the media, public and legal [spheres]; with the need to mobilize all the energies of the nation in the battle



P F Tinmore said:


> Are they? I have posted many Palestinian videos. How many talked about seeking a state?


*(COMMENT)*

OK, Damn near everyone, understands that the goals and objectives are for the Arab Palestinian to seize all territory.  

The Arab Palestinians have never said that they will give up their struggle against the Israelis no matter what concessions are offered or made.  The Israelis unilaterally withdrew from the Gaza Strip, and still today, more than a decade later, the Hostile Arab Palestinians cause all manner of havoc in Israel.

Videos • we don't need no stinking • Videos...




Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## Hollie (Sep 28, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...


I guess I missed that youtube video gee-had marathon.


----------



## Mindful (Sep 28, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



Seeking what?

I thought they had one already, according to you.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Sep 28, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> The US had a trade agreement with Palestine in 1932



Link?


----------



## toastman (Sep 28, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> toastman said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...


You made the claim, so it’s to you to back it up. You presented nothing. So let’s try this again. When did Palestine officially become a stage. No link, no video, just the year.


----------



## toastman (Sep 28, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> Mindful said:
> 
> 
> > toastman said:
> ...


So you’re saying that Palestine was already a state in 1932?? Yes or no ?


----------



## toastman (Sep 28, 2020)

Mindful said:


> toastman said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...


I don’t know why I bother either ....


----------



## Mindful (Sep 28, 2020)

toastman said:


> Mindful said:
> 
> 
> > toastman said:
> ...



Let him get on with it.


----------



## RoccoR (Sep 28, 2020)

RE: Israel's Lies
⁜→ P F Tinmore,  et al,

*BLUF:* More Misinformation



P F Tinmore said:


> The US had a trade agreement with Palestine in 1932





Toddsterpatriot said:


> Link?


*(COMMENT)*

The Book is called:  

Trade Agreements and the Continuation of Tariff Protection Policy in Mandate Palestine in the 1930s​...................................................................................................................................by Roza I. M. El-Eini​
I have it around here someplace, I just can't lay hands on it right now.  But the book Roza el-Eini is best known for is:
Mandate Landscape:  British Imperial Rule in Palestine 1929-1948​
He knows very well that the Government in Palestine was British (not Arab).



Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## P F Tinmore (Sep 28, 2020)

toastman said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Mindful said:
> ...


Yes.


----------



## Hollie (Sep 28, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> toastman said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...


Lovely. 

You believe in many falsehoods.


----------



## toastman (Sep 28, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> toastman said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...


So if they were already a state in 1933, why did they declare independence in 1948?


----------



## toastman (Sep 28, 2020)

Hollie said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > toastman said:
> ...


Tinmore likes to invent his own history. He doesn’t know the difference between geographical area and a country.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Sep 28, 2020)

toastman said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > toastman said:
> ...


Because the Mandate did not leave until 1948.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Sep 28, 2020)

The Cool Aid Club has spoken.


----------



## toastman (Sep 28, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> toastman said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...


Got a link that backs that up? My guess is no.

BTW, Palestine was not a state in 1932. Palestine was a Loosely defined geographical region. Not a state. That’s not a matter of opinion, it’s a fact. A fact that you can’t accept.
IF Palestine was already a state in 1932, they would have had no reason to declare independence in 1948


----------



## Hollie (Sep 28, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> The Cool Aid Club has spoken.


You don't find it odd that your contrived version of history is ruthlessly contradicted by facts?


----------



## Hollie (Sep 28, 2020)

toastman said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...


I'm thinking he has moved on from ''the Treaty of Lausanne invented the state of Pal'istan'' to a new conspiracy theory.


----------



## toastman (Sep 28, 2020)

Hollie said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > The Cool Aid Club has spoken.
> ...


Very well said post!


----------



## P F Tinmore (Sep 29, 2020)

toastman said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...


No link?


----------



## P F Tinmore (Sep 29, 2020)

Two pages of blabber and nobody substantiated their claim.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Sep 29, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> Two pages of blabber and nobody substantiated their claim.



But enough about you.


----------



## Hollie (Sep 29, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> Two pages of blabber and nobody substantiated their claim.


Link?


----------



## toastman (Sep 29, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> Two pages of blabber and nobody substantiated their claim.



No, you just can’t handle he truth, as usual.
Why is it that you post jibberish yet never have anything to back it up? I mean, do you enjoy lying ??


----------



## Picaro (Sep 30, 2020)

The message board equivalent of Groundhog Day: The Movie. Too bad for Tinmore the issue was settled in 1935, and he has no recourse but whining.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Sep 30, 2020)

toastman said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Two pages of blabber and nobody substantiated their claim.
> ...


What truth? None of you have substantiated your claim.


----------



## Hollie (Sep 30, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> toastman said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...


You mean other than the clearly substantiated claims.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Sep 30, 2020)

Hollie said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > toastman said:
> ...


Do you mean when y'all starting dancing around the issue?


----------



## RoccoR (Sep 30, 2020)

RE: Israel's Lies
⁜→ P F Tinmore,  

*BLUF:* You just keep us going in circles.



P F Tinmore said:


> Do you mean when y'all starting dancing around the issue?


*(COMMENT)*

State your question_ (the Issue you say we are dancing around)_ clearly.  Distinctively and Specifically_*!*_




Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## Hollie (Sep 30, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...


No. I mean when you cut and paste your silly emoticons instead of addressing the issues.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Sep 30, 2020)

RoccoR said:


> RE: Israel's Lies
> ⁜→ P F Tinmore,
> 
> *BLUF:* You just keep us going in circles.
> ...


Israel has had a long term propaganda campaign denying the existence of Palestine.

Point made.

Prove your point.


----------



## RoccoR (Sep 30, 2020)

RE: Israel's Lies
⁜→ P F Tinmore,  

*BLUF:* I doubt that Israel would spend a dime on this question.



P F Tinmore said:


> Israel has had a long term propaganda campaign denying the existence of Palestine.
> 
> Point made.
> 
> Prove your point.


*(COMMENT)*

The key here is how "YOU" define "Palestine."  But certainly, prior to the Mandate termination, the entirety of the territory was a "Legal Entity" known as the Government of Palestine.

After May 1948, there was within the UN Trusteeship territory, the new sovereign State of Israel.  The entirety of the West Bank and Occupied Jerusalem went under a transformation, and in April 1950, that portion of the former Mandate Territory_ (transferred to the UN Trustee System)_, was absorbed by Jordan.  And that remained so until July 1988, when the Jordanian relinquished the sovereignty and cut all political ties with the portion formally annexed by Jordan.

That same territory then made _terra nullius_ *(a territory belonging to no-one—at the time of the act alleged to constitute the “occupation”)* by the unilateral withdrawal of all claims to the territory and thus, into the existing hands of the Israelis.

Without regard to any argument that may be initiated over the "_terra nullius_" status, there was no remaining territory over which the Arab Palestinian _(a people without a formed government)_ when in NOV 1988, the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO), the sole legitimate representative of the Arab Palestinians in any Palestinian territory that is liberated, (as of 1974) had not liberated any territory.  In fact, the question of - "liberation" - and - "what needs to be liberated" - becomes a moot point with the mutually agreed upon creations of Areas "A" - "B" - and "C"...  In fact, the only sure territory that could be reasonably argued as sovereign Arab Palestinian is Area "A"...

In December 2012, the UN A/RES/67/19 accorded "to  Palestine  "non-member observer  State status"  in the United  Nations,  without prejudice to the acquired rights,  privileges, and role of the Palestine  Liberation  Organization in the  United  Nations as the representative of the Palestinian people, in accordance with the relevant resolutions and practice."

Q:  What does "*non-member observer  State status*" actually mean, and how does it work with the current situation in the Middle East, west of the Jordan River?​
Different factions within the Arab Palestinian people's regime have different takes on where the A/RES/67/19 State of Palestine is actually located.  "Thus, the principle of sovereignty in general, and that of territorial sovereignty in particular, remains of necessity the “point of departure in settling most questions that concern international relation.”  Maybe Area "A" only fits that description.  The Israeli War for Independence (technically) extended into 1995 when the Jordanians entered into a peace arrangement.

_*One thing is reasonably certain.  No right grants the Arab Palestinian the power to compel Israel to surrender any territory the Israelis now hold under the principle of territorial sovereignty.*_






Most Respectfully,
R

*terra nullius* ‘The expression “ terra nullius ” was a legal term of art employed in connection with “occupation” as one of the accepted legal methods of acquiring sovereignty over territory. “Occupation” being legally an original means of peacefully acquiring sovereignty over territory otherwise than by cession or succession, it was a cardinal condition of a valid “occupation” that the territory should be terra nullius— a territory belonging to no-one—at the time of the act alleged to constitute the “occupation” . . .’: Western Sahara Case 1975 I.C.J. Rep. 6 at 39. Cf . Eastern Greenland, Legal Status of, Case ( 1933 ) P.C.I.J., Ser. A/B, No. 53 at 44 and 63. In the words of 1 Oppenheim 687, ‘The only territory which can be the object of occupation is that which does not already belong to another state, whether it is uninhabited, or inhabited by persons whose community is not considered to be a state; for individuals may live on as territory without forming themselves into a state proper exercising sovereignty over such territory’. See also Clipperton Island Case ( 1931 ) 2 R.I.A.A. 1105; Island of Palmas Case ( 1928 ) 2 R.I.A.A. 829; Minquiers and Ecrehos Case 1953
I.C.J. Rep. 47; Rann of Kutch Case ( 1968 ) 17 R.I.A.A. 1 ; Western Sahara Case 1975
I.C.J. Rep. 12. And see Crawford, The Creation of States in International Law (2nd ed.),
265–268. The process whereby territory already subject to the sovereignty of another State
may be acquired—and by very much the same method as for occupation —is referred to as
prescription ( see prescription, acquisitive ).
*SOURCE:* Parry & Grant Encyclopaedic Dictionary of International Law, page 596

*sovereignty* ‘Sovereignty as a principle of international law must be sharply distinguished from other related uses of the term: sovereignty in its internal aspects and political sovereignty.  Sovereignty in its internal aspects is concerned with the identity of the bearer of supreme authority within a State. This may be an individual or a collective unit. . . . In international relations, the scope of political sovereignty is still less limited [than that within a State]. Political sovereignty is the necessary concomitant of the lack of an effective international order and the constitutional weaknesses of the international superstructures which have so far been grafted on the law of unorganized international society. . . . [D]octrinal attempts at spiriting away sovereignty must remain meaningless. Actually, such efforts appear to minimize unduly the fundamental character of the principle of legal sovereignty within the realm of international law. The rules underlying this principle derive their importance. from the basic fact that “almost all international relations are bound up” with the independence of States. Thus, the principle of sovereignty in general, and that of territorial sovereignty in particular, remains of necessity the “point of departure in settling most questions
that concern international relation” [ Island of Palmas Case ( 1928 ) 2 R.I.A.A. 829 at 839]’: Schwarzenberger , International Law (3rd ed.), 114–115.
*SOURCE:* Parry & Grant Encyclopaedic Dictionary of International Law, page 563/654


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## Hollie (Sep 30, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> Point made.



What point have you made?


----------



## P F Tinmore (Sep 30, 2020)

Hollie said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Point made.
> ...


Your point so prove it.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Sep 30, 2020)

RoccoR said:


> RE: Israel's Lies
> ⁜→ P F Tinmore,
> 
> *BLUF:* I doubt that Israel would spend a dime on this question.
> ...


Holy verbosity, Batman!


RoccoR said:


> The key here is how "YOU" define "Palestine."


To the Palestinians Palestine is Palestine. Occupations are periods of history that do not change the original fact. The opinion of foreigners do not change anything.


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## toastman (Sep 30, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > RE: Israel's Lies
> ...


Why don’t you answer Rocco’s question and tell us what issue you claim we are dancing around ? Are you afraid that you are going to lose the argument for the umpteenth time ??


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## toastman (Sep 30, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > RE: Israel's Lies
> ...


Cool, but no of this changes he fact that Israel is a country that has international borders, and Palestine isn’t. None of your propaganda and lies will EVER change that. 
It’s  not my fault you can’t accept the truth .


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## P F Tinmore (Oct 1, 2020)

RoccoR said:


> *terra nullius* ‘The expression “ terra nullius ” was a legal term of art employed in connection with “occupation” as one of the accepted legal methods of acquiring sovereignty over territory. “Occupation” being legally an original means of peacefully acquiring sovereignty over territory otherwise than by cession or succession, it was a cardinal condition of a valid “occupation” that the territory should be terra nullius— a territory belonging to no-one—at the time of the act alleged to constitute the “occupation”


Occupation is the method that Israel claims it has acquired territory. None of the other method fit.

When territory is peacefully controlled for a period of time that territory can be claimed. Israel's claim to territory has never been peaceful. It has always been contested by the native population.

Israel constantly whines about so called terrorist attacks as the natives refuse to cede their territory to Israel.

All "peace offers" to the Palestinians have required them to surrender territory to Israel. So far no such treaty has ever been signed.


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## RoccoR (Oct 1, 2020)

RE: Israel's Lies
⁜→ P F Tinmore,  

*BLUF:* AH, yessss... The question of Palestine.



RoccoR said:


> The key here is how "YOU" define "Palestine."





P F Tinmore said:


> To the Palestinians Palestine is Palestine. Occupations are periods of history that do not change the original fact. The opinion of foreigners do not change anything.


*(COMMENT)*

This is a typical and harmless looking response.  But the reality of this statement has a very profound set of consequences if implemented.  There is no muddy water here.  The Arab Palestinians want to control Israeli sovereign territory.  I repeat: →  the Arab Palestinians want to control all of Palestine including Israel which they consider "Occupied Territory."

​


			
				Palestine National Charter (1968)   said:
			
		

> Palestine, with the boundaries it had during the British Mandate, is an indivisible territorial unit.​​The Palestinian Arab people possess the legal right to their homeland and to self-determination after the completion of the liberation of their country in accordance with their wishes and entirely of their own accord and will.​


​​


			
				HAMAS said:
			
		

> Palestine from the river to the sea, and from north to south, is a land of the Palestinian people and its homeland and its legitimate right, we may not a waiver an inch or any part thereof, no matter what the reasons and circumstances and pressures.​​


​
*As a side note*, I noticed that the State of Palestine/Palestine Liberation Organization, Negotiation Affairs Department (PLO/NAD) Website has taken the narratives down on the explanation of their political positions for the nine major points of negotiation _(including the position on Borders)_.  I thought that was interesting.   I wonder what that means.​​I also noticed that the PLO/NAD Website left an ironic key statement behind under Publications _(absent the publication)_: "_The Looming Annexation: Israel's Denial of Palestine's Right to Exist_" AND if you connect the dot, you finally get to the publication "_Irregular Armed Forces and their Role in Politics and State Formation_."​



RoccoR said:


> *terra nullius* ‘The expression “ terra nullius ” was a legal term of art employed in connection with “occupation” as one of the accepted legal methods of acquiring sovereignty over territory. “Occupation” being legally an original means of peacefully acquiring sovereignty over territory otherwise than by cession or succession, it was a cardinal condition of a valid “occupation” that the territory should be terra nullius— a territory belonging to no-one—at the time of the act alleged to constitute the “occupation”





P F Tinmore said:


> Occupation is the method that Israel claims it has acquired territory. None of the other methods fit.
> 
> When territory is peacefully controlled for a period of time that territory can be claimed. Israel's claim to the territory has never been peaceful. It has always been contested by the native population.
> 
> ...


*(COMMENT)*

First, let me say, that I do not speak for Israel.  But I think that Israel made a "mistake" by not Annexing the West Bank the moment that HM King Hussein "announced the severance of all administrative and legal ties with the occupied West Bank."  On 1 August 1988, it was a peaceful transition.  The transition was from Jordaining Soveirenty to Israeli effective control.  There was no outbreak of hostilities.  It took the Arab Palestinians nearly three Months to respond.  And their response was well overtaken by events.

Second,  The Arab Palestinians were not asked to surrender any territory.   How can this be true, you might ask?  Because the Arab Palestinian Leadership generally: 

◈  Rejected Negotiations opportunities.​◈  Did not avail themselves of the "Dispute Clause" in the Oslo Accords.​◈  On those occasions where they did come to the negotiation table, they did not act in go faith.​◈  Continued Asymmetric and terrorist attacks on a continuous timeline from 1967 to the present.​◈  Or, the Arab Palestinian adopted a policy of:​✦  no peace with Israel,​✦  no recognition of Israel,​✦  no negotiations with Israel,​​


P F Tinmore said:


> Holy verbosity, Batman!


*(COMMENT)*

Your questions do not lend themselves to sound bite answers.  Your questions may be simple to ask, but much more difficult to explain.

Literally hundreds of people have written thousands of books on the "Question of Palestine."  And even more thousands of exchanges and cables that were composed between the Quartet (UN, US, EU, and Russia Federation) trying to hammer-out kinks in various approaches to a solution.  If you are expecting a simple three or four-sentence answer to your questions, --- prepare to be continuously disappointed.

I'm not 'verbose' as you term it.  If anything, experts on the subject will suggest that I'm oversimplifying the answers; what they sometimes call the baby-spoon explanations.





Most Respectfully,
R


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## P F Tinmore (Oct 1, 2020)

RoccoR said:


> Second, The Arab Palestinians were not asked to surrender any territory.


Name one proposal where Palestine would keep all of their territory.

I await your response.


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## P F Tinmore (Oct 1, 2020)

RoccoR said:


> And even more thousands of exchanges and cables that were composed between the Quartet (UN, US, EU, and Russia Federation) trying to hammer-out kinks in various approaches to a solution.


And what did those dumbfucks accomplish?


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## Hollie (Oct 1, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > Second, The Arab Palestinians were not asked to surrender any territory.
> ...


You might want to define ''their territory'' as it relates to the ''Pals''.

"Occupation doesn't mean sovereignty''. I'm paraphrasing but that is one of your preferred slogans. 

When did the Pal-Arab occupation of the territory called Palestine grant the ''their territory'' designation


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## P F Tinmore (Oct 1, 2020)

RoccoR said:


> RE: Israel's Lies
> ⁜→ P F Tinmore,
> 
> *BLUF:* AH, yessss... The question of Palestine.
> ...





RoccoR said:


> First, let me say, that I do not speak for Israel.


WOW, you sure had me fooled!


RoccoR said:


> But I think that Israel made a "mistake" by not Annexing the West Bank the moment that HM King Hussein "announced the severance of all administrative and legal ties with the occupied West Bank."


I think you missed the point of my post.


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## P F Tinmore (Oct 1, 2020)

Hollie said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > RoccoR said:
> ...


 You haven't been following my posts.


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## RoccoR (Oct 1, 2020)

RE: Israel's Lies
⁜→ P F Tinmore,  

*BLUF:* To surrender any territory, you must first be the sovereign over that territory in question.



RoccoR said:


> Second, The Arab Palestinians were not asked to surrender any territory.





P F Tinmore said:


> Name one proposal where Palestine would keep all of their territory.
> 
> I await your response.


*(COMMENT)*

◈  Area "A" → is under the exclusive administration of the Palestinian Authority; the Gaza Strip is under Sovereign Palestinian control.​​◈  Area "B" → is under the joint administration by both the Palestinian Authority and Israel;​​◈  Area "C" → is under the exclusive administration of Israel. All Israeli settlements are located in Area "C", is administered by Israel.​
Where are the Israeli demands for Area A, and the Gaza Strip?




Most Respectfully,
R


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## Hollie (Oct 1, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...


I anticipated you would scurry off.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Oct 1, 2020)

RoccoR said:


> To surrender any territory, you must first be the sovereign over that territory in question.


Who says they are not?

Link?


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## P F Tinmore (Oct 1, 2020)

RoccoR said:


> RE: Israel's Lies
> ⁜→ P F Tinmore,
> 
> *BLUF:* To surrender any territory, you must first be the sovereign over that territory in question.
> ...


You are ducking. A,B, and C are irrelevant to my post.


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## toastman (Oct 1, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > Second, The Arab Palestinians were not asked to surrender any territory.
> ...


It’s not their territory. It’s Israel’s territory. Israel is a country. Palestine isn’t and likely never will be .


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## toastman (Oct 1, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > To surrender any territory, you must first be the sovereign over that territory in question.
> ...


You need a link for that ? Geez, you’re more misinformed than I thought .


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## Hollie (Oct 1, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > Second, The Arab Palestinians were not asked to surrender any territory.
> ...



I can’t find any indication that “their territory” ever applied to the Pal-Arab occupation of the geographic area called Palestine. The geographic area called Palestine was a Sanjak, (an administrative division of the Ottoman Empire), and never controlled or held as sovereign by any group called “Palestinian Arabs”.

When did the geographic area become “their territory”?

link?


----------



## toastman (Oct 1, 2020)

How about this Tinmore. In order to clarify things, why don’t you post a map of what you think Palestine is as of now.


----------



## RoccoR (Oct 1, 2020)

RE: Israel's Lies
⁜→ P F Tinmore,

*BLUF:* If you don't understand the meaning of sovereignty, it will be next to impossible for you to understand which of the Areas meets the criteria for sovereignty.



RoccoR said:


> To surrender any territory, you must first be the sovereign over that territory in question.





P F Tinmore said:


> Who says they are not?
> 
> Link?
> 
> You are ducking. A,B, and C are irrelevant to my post.


*(COMMENT)*

I gave you the *definition of "Sovereignty" in Posting #454* yesterday.  But I think that the _*ThoughtCompany*_ outlines it better than I've seen anywhere else.
​


			
				ThoughCo said:
			
		

> *7. Has sovereignty. No other State should have power over the country's territory.*​Somewhat. The West Bank and Gaza Strip do not yet have full sovereignty and control over their own territory.​





			
				Eugene Kontorovich • Professor of Constitutional and International Law • George Mason University said:
			
		

> *A sovereign Palestinian Arab state has never existed.*Rather, the status of the territory is, at best, _disputed_. This, of course, is the reason for the negotiations between Israelis and Palestinians—negotiations which Indyk has long advocated and which Palestinians have long rejected. By claiming that the land is “Palestinian territory,” Indyk is prejudging an outcome, effectively saying that negotiations aren’t necessary as the land already belongs to Palestinian Arabs.​Source:  By:   Foreign Affairs Magazine, ‘Palestinian Land,’ and the Press, Sean Durns May 29, 2020 ​





> When Secretary of State Mike Pompeo recently announced an official change to U.S. policy regarding Israel’s settlements in the West Bank, saying the U.S. no longer finds them to be “inconsistent with international law,” it was unclear if he — or whoever else was behind the policy — thought through its full implications. ​*SOURCE*:  *Brookings Institute*, Omar H. Rahman Monday, November 25, 2019 ​


​

*(COMMENT)*​​Nothing I'm going to say will satify you.  And I suspect, it is that approach the Ramalla Government (such that it is) will take.  If it were so easy for you to prove, you would have thrown it in my face.  All you can do is ask for negative answer (proof does not exsist).  I simply do not know how to do that.  All I can say, is that the Arab Palestinian government in Ramalla does not have final authority on all matters in Area "B" and certainly is not the final authority in Area "C" or Jerusalem.  Subtract all that from the disputed territory and what you have left, might be the Sovereign State of Palestine.​​

​Most Respectfully,​R​


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## P F Tinmore (Oct 1, 2020)

RoccoR said:


> RE: Israel's Lies
> ⁜→ P F Tinmore,
> 
> *BLUF:* If you don't understand the meaning of sovereignty, it will be next to impossible for you to understand which of the Areas meets the criteria for sovereignty.
> ...


You are deflecting from my post.





__





						Israel's Lies
					

The Cool Aid Club has spoken.  You don't find it odd that your contrived version of history is ruthlessly contradicted by facts?  Very well said post!



					www.usmessageboard.com


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## Hollie (Oct 1, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > RE: Israel's Lies
> ...



You are, as usual, deflecting.

Identify the areas maintained as sovereign by either of the Pal-Arab enclaves.

Link?

You deflected from an earlier question:

When did the Pal-Arab occupation of the territory called Palestine achieve the ''their territory'' designation?

Link?


----------



## toastman (Oct 1, 2020)

Can someone explain to me Tinmores logic.. he does nothing but deflect, then accuses others of deflecting .


----------



## RoccoR (Oct 1, 2020)

RE: Israel's Lies
⁜→ toastman,

I don't believe that our friend P F Tinmore can present a defendable argument.



toastman said:


> Can someone explain to me Tinmores logic.. he does nothing but deflect, then accuses others of deflecting .


*(COMMENT)*

The HoAP act as if some power is going to turn the clock block and replay history. That simply is NOT going to happen.




Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## P F Tinmore (Oct 1, 2020)

RoccoR said:


> RE: Israel's Lies
> ⁜→ toastman,
> 
> I don't believe that our friend P F Tinmore can present a defendable argument.
> ...


Huh?


----------



## Hollie (Oct 2, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > RE: Israel's Lies
> ...



Indeed.

RoccoR posted:
“I don't believe that our friend P F Tinmore can present a defendable argument.”


Responded to by P F Tinmore with:
_(cut and paste meaningless YouTube video_)


----------



## P F Tinmore (Oct 4, 2020)

RoccoR said:


> RE: Israel's Lies
> ⁜→ P F Tinmore,
> 
> *BLUF:* If you don't understand the meaning of sovereignty, it will be next to impossible for you to understand which of the Areas meets the criteria for sovereignty.
> ...


By claiming that the land is “Palestinian territory,” Indyk is prejudging an outcome, effectively saying that negotiations aren’t necessary as the land already belongs to Palestinian Arabs.​
And if is not theirs, why do they have the authority to negotiate it?

Even if propaganda makes no sense, there are dupes who will believe it.


----------



## RoccoR (Oct 4, 2020)

RE: Israel's Lies
⁜→ P F Tinmore,

*BLUF:* Anyone who expresses any opinion on the question is pre-judging the two adversaries.

I noticed that the International Criminal Court (ICC) only released and made public a Redacted version (Eighth Report) pertaining to Information and Outreach Activities Concerning Victims and Affected Communities in the Situation”, 12 August 2020, ICC-01/18-141-Conf, which spotlights allegations against the Israelis on criminal acts committed in the occupied Palestinian territory, including East Jerusalem, since 13 June 2014. That is worrisome to me, in that it indicates who are the victims and who are the criminals on trial. It does not give me any confidence at all that the Court is going to take into account the Hostile Arab Palestinian (HoAP) Activities that incited the necessity for Operation Protective Edge (8 July – 26 August 2014). And it stated that it would focus on "crimes committed in the* occupied Palestinian territory, including East Jerusalem.*"  The court did not give me the impression that it would even consider that the Israeli state and people were victims of Hostile Arab Palestinians.​​I am also curious about the period of the spotlight.  14 June 2014 to (open-ended).  Just how does that work?​​IN MY MIND, it is the ICC that is making a pre-judgment on certain facts.​


P F Tinmore said:


> By claiming that the land is “Palestinian territory,” Indyk is prejudging an outcome, effectively saying that negotiations aren’t necessary as the land already belongs to Palestinian Arabs.​*₪₪₪₪₪₪₪₪₪₪₪₪₪₪₪₪₪₪₪₪₪₪₪₪₪₪₪₪₪₪₪₪₪₪₪₪₪₪₪₪₪₪₪₪₪₪₪₪ *​And if is not theirs, why do they have the authority to negotiate it?
> 
> Even if propaganda makes no sense, there are dupes who will believe it.


*(COMMENT)*

I don't think that the opinion expressed by Martin Indyk is NOT pre-judging any outcome at all.  It is, however, a political forecast on the HoAP response to a new negotiation effort.  It is not like the HoAP has a history of cooperation and good faith in these matters.  The HoAP are not now, nor have they been, actively involved in the maintenance of international peace and security and for the development of Friendly Relations and Co-operation between the two parties in the conflict, since the Oslo Accords.

Incidental to the ICC pro-Palestinian _(declaring them as the victims)_ impression it publically projects, it sounds like it has already come down on the side of the Arab Palestinians as the being subjected to "Apartheid" measures, and not considering the ground truth of the actual demarcation.  I get a distinct impression the Court is acting as if  Israel _(proper and sovereign)_ was really occupied Palestinian territory, and that the Security Barriers represents an internal partition separating two races within one state.

I'm an old man, but I fear it is the intention of the court to destabilize the situation in the territory consisting of Israel, Gaza Strip, the West Bank, including Jerusalem.

Just my thought.



Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## P F Tinmore (Oct 4, 2020)

RoccoR said:


> RE: Israel's Lies
> ⁜→ P F Tinmore,
> 
> *BLUF:* Anyone who expresses any opinion on the question is pre-judging the two adversaries.
> ...


OK, so now can you address my post?


----------



## Hollie (Oct 4, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > RE: Israel's Lies
> ...


Indeed. How many more times do you need that to be addressed?


----------



## P F Tinmore (Oct 4, 2020)

Hollie said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > RoccoR said:
> ...


Just once.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Oct 20, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...


That question has been ducked.

So how about the one where the Hamas coup took Gaza away from the PA?


----------

