# The Myth That Refuses To Die



## Flanders (Aug 20, 2014)

> Teachers are underpaid.



*The fact is that:*



> . . . teachers actually do quite well for themselves when you consider the economic realities of their profession.
> 
> XXXXX​
> Then there is the matter of demand — or lack of it. According to Andrew Coulson at the Cato Institute, since 1970 the public-school workforce has roughly doubled, from 3.3 million to 6.4 million (predominately teachers), while over the same period, the enrollment of children rose by only 8.5 percent — or a rate that was 11 times slower. Recently, the National Council on Teacher Quality found that schools are training twice as many elementary-school teachers as they need every year.
> ...



*This is the secret Democrats guard like Fort Knox. Open-borders will increase the education industry’s tax dollar funded customer base by tens of millions which converts to hundred of billions paid to the economic and intellectual foundation of the parasite class. And that is on top of the tens of billions of tax dollars education industry parasites already get. In precise terms the salaries of everybody in the education industry from teachers to bloated administrative staffs to building maintenance personnel will further enrich the government middle class at the same time it destroys the private sector.*

*It’s for children is the lie that feeds the myth.*


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## Book of Jeremiah (Aug 20, 2014)

Interesting, Flanders.  I do know that teachers are very well paid and that they also get a very long vacation - all summer long!


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## initforme (Aug 20, 2014)

Nice Troll thread. Teachers are destroying the private sector.   Nice try.   The real myth is that you expect good teachers but don't want to pay them.  Overpaid?  I say underpaid for putting up with all the problems kids today come in with.


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## Book of Jeremiah (Aug 20, 2014)

Oy vey.   First they create the problem with nonsense teaching of evolution and banning God from the classroom and now they want to complain they have a discipline problem.  Please make up your minds!


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## Book of Jeremiah (Aug 20, 2014)

Next it will be our fault that the children didn't learn anything from "Common Core" education!  Meanwhile back in 2010 you were getting this warning which you all ignored............


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## Flanders (Aug 21, 2014)

> initforme said:
> 
> 
> > Teachers are destroying the private sector.
> ...


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## initforme (Aug 21, 2014)

I respectfully disagree with the premise of the post.  Blaming teachers for creating a parasitic class is quite out there.  Teachers where I live top out at fifty some thousand dollars which to me is, a small income for what they provide.   In fact I don't know of one wealthy teacher.  I see the Cato institute mentioned, red flag for me right there.   Blaming teachers is nothing but using an easy scapegoat.  I see your problem is purely related to money.  Why should a public worker make a wage that they can live on right?   Destroying the private sector is because of teachers?  The teachers where I live onlystrengthen the private sector by providing and prepping kids for college so they can be successful.  No socialism is taught.


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## Flanders (Aug 21, 2014)

initforme said:


> Blaming teachers for creating a parasitic class is quite out there.



*To initforme: Not really when you know how it was done.

Start with the earliest Socialists in the late 19th century, and try to imagine a Supreme Deity priesthood doing the things Socialists get away.

Organized religions in America operated on voluntary contributions. Many churches ran charitable institutions, hospitals, soup kitchens, etc., while the recipients of religion-based charities could hardly be called parasites, and certainly not a parasite class. 

NOTE: The Salvation Army is a 19th century religion that did the things American Socialists could have done to help the poor if Socialists admitted to being priests. At that time teachers were the intellectual force that kept their beliefs from morphing into another religion. There was one major problem with their agenda. Religions openly proselytize when they hand out bread. Rice Christians in China is the most obvious example of how it works.

Nobody was going to donate to Socialism’s priesthood so long as it avoided the label of religion not to mention having to compete in a crowded field. That meant that Socialists could hardly  proselytize since they swear Socialism is not a religion, yet if Socialists did not compete their religion would die on vine. So they had to find a way to acquire the reputation of traditional priests without running afoul of the First Amendment. Forcing Americans to support their “good works” was the only way the Socialist priesthood could get the respect generally accorded to men of the cloth. The XVI Amendment (1913) provided the machinery Socialists needed to proselytize without actually being required to defend their religion. Teachers do just that even if the individual teacher might not be a Socialist. *



initforme said:


> Teachers where I live top out at fifty some thousand dollars which to me is, a small income for what they provide.   In fact I don't know of one wealthy teacher.



*To initforme: I do not know of one teacher who is not well-off in retirement. 

Extraordinary wealth is not the issue. The wealth of the nation is slowly being transferred to the parasite class, primarily parasites in the education industry. No other group living on tax dollars comes close to the amount of money that goes to the education industry. I doubt if the parasites who get seats at the public trough through the Affordable Care Act —— 1/6th of the nation’s economy —— will absorb more wealth than the parasites in the education industry. Education industry parasites already control AND INFLUENCE far more than 1/6th of the nation’s economy —— and they’ve been at it a lot longer than healthcare hustlers.

NOTE: Teachers have been the driving force pushing socialized medicine as far back as Teddy Roosevelt.*



initforme said:


> I see the Cato institute mentioned, red flag for me right there.



*To initforme: You and Harry Reid. *



initforme said:


> Blaming teachers is nothing but using an easy scapegoat.  I see your problem is purely related to money.


 
*To initforme: My problem is the difference between voluntary and coercion. Liberals pretend there is no difference.*



initforme said:


> Why should a public worker make a wage that they can live on right?



*To initforme: Necessary civil servants deserve top pay. Tax dollar parasites deserve nothing.*



initforme said:


> Destroying the private sector is because of teachers?  The teachers where I live onlystrengthen the private sector by providing and prepping kids for college



*To initforme: Wonderful! One level of teachers indoctrinating children so they can feed them to their parasite pals in higher education.*



initforme said:


> so they can be successful.



*To initforme: Preparing kids for a government job is not success. The other kids will be successful without the indoctrination.*



initforme said:


> No socialism is taught.



*To initforme: Deny it if you must, but American teachers are teaching the joys of a Socialist theocracy. *


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## regent (Aug 21, 2014)

Teachers spend four or five years in college learning to be a teacher and then almost half quit teaching in the first five years they teach.


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## initforme (Aug 22, 2014)

That is correct because when one becomes a teacher they have forfeited their ability to earn a lot more in the private sector.   They have sacrificed their earning potential big time.


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## Mad Scientist (Aug 22, 2014)

One of my Community College teachers said that very thing; "Thanks you guys for saying that we Teachers should be paid more but believe me my paycheck is just fine!"


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## Unkotare (Aug 22, 2014)

I think the argument can be made that compared to those working in other essential professions such as medicine and law, those in education tend to be less well-compensated. This is due to the notion of "public" education, of course.


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## pismoe (Aug 22, 2014)

if teachers don't like the pay then why do they go to school to get jobs as teachers Unkatare ??   Teachers are s'posed to be smart but getting a [supposedly] low paying job as a teacher doesn't sound very smart to me . Maybe teachers oughta get jobs where they like the pay scale !!


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## pismoe (Aug 22, 2014)

and a comment on medicine because it was mentioned as essential .    Doctors always did good as Doctors but it'll be interesting to see how well they do in this age of obamacare .    I hear that lots of experienced Doctors are retiring / leaving because of obamacare [HEARD] .


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## Flanders (Aug 22, 2014)

pismoe said:


> if teachers don't like the pay then why do they go to school to get jobs as teachers Unkatare ??   Teachers are s'posed to be smart but getting a [supposedly] low paying job as a teacher doesn't sound very smart to me . Maybe teachers oughta get jobs where they like the pay scale !!



*To pismoe: Exactly.*



pismoe said:


> and a comment on medicine because it was mentioned as essential .    Doctors always did good as Doctors but it'll be interesting to see how well they do in this age of obamacare .    I hear that lots of experienced Doctors are retiring / leaving because of obamacare [HEARD] .



*To pismoe: I read similar accounts of doctor’s bailing out in substantial numbers, while I never heard of teachers bailing out en masse because of income. Democrats are ignoring the facts and spinning the ACA like a top hoping their disaster will go away before November: *



> In a bit of dubious cherry-picking, a new Bloomberg article concludes that the Affordable Care Act is losing its effectiveness as a political issue for Republicans and is diminishing as a major issue. How do we know the end is near-ish? Well, so many Americans are “benefiting from the law,” theorizes Heidi Przybyla, that political ads are simply not doing the job anymore.


*The spin stops when the insurance industry’s premium and deductible increases are released a few weeks before the election:*


> . . . GOP groups have plans to refocus on the ACA as soon as premium increases for 2015 are announced. As with any issue, the political impact of Obamacare is hitched to events surrounding the law. An ebb is not a capitulation. And there will be more Obamacare events.
> 
> Are Republicans abandoning the ObamaCare issue? Doubtful.
> By: David Harsanyi
> ...


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## pismoe (Aug 22, 2014)

Hey Flanders , I know Doctors and I have always had the best personal Doctors pre obamacare and I've never been rich so as a blue collar commoner I was able to afford the best Doctors for me and family .   Now I see what obamacare will be in the future as I see [as examples] clinics in drugstores and I see electronic machines taking blood pressure and silly BMI on machines and the machines speak to you through little television screens on the machines that are in Wal Mart [humorous to see]  .   Previously Doctors were seen as being rich and that never bothered me as I figured that they got rich through their work of [Socratic oath] and education .   Now some Doctors will retire if they prepared for national healthcare and many will get out due to all the rules being forced on them , from what I hear and read .   I oppose obamacare simply because of the MANDATE which I see as being un-American  .    I also see more immigration bringing in foreign ' dokters ' that will be good enough for the rabble .


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## pismoe (Aug 22, 2014)

OFF TOPIC but related to rates of pay .   ---   I knew a young 25 to 30 year old guy that was looking to join a big city police force .   He was in the process of qualifying for the police  .   In a conversation he told me that he could understand corrupt thieving police [drug money] as police only make a sub standard rate of pay .   At the time that rate for starting police was 56,000.00 dollars a year .   I know this as at the time the big city had advertising billboards stating rates of pay .    Like I say OFF TOPIC but related to rates of pay for so called essential services .


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## Flanders (Aug 22, 2014)

pismoe said:


> I also see more immigration bringing in foreign ' dokters ' that will be good enough for the rabble .



*To pismoe: This excerpt from a previous thread touches on your prediction:*



> *Now, another horrible fact can be added:*
> 
> Half of foreign doctors are below British standards
> 
> ...


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## initforme (Aug 22, 2014)

Insurance companies will come out just fine.  They always have and they decide if someone gets care or not.  If one single person in this country goes broke because they get ill, the system is flawed. If that happens we are valuing money over life.


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## pismoe (Aug 22, 2014)

there you go , good to see my thinking being backed up Flanders .   As a 64 - 65 year old I really don't care and I have good health anyway but I think that many young and older Americans will suffer .   My parents are both gone so I don't worry about them , I worry about my Grandkids though .  And yep , England is a mess with their NHS because [as one reason] many imported employees and docters don't recognize or won't comply with Western Standards of sterile conditions but these same imported work for less  .   By the way , I spent years over on UK , British , English / fureign message boards and had a lot of fun messing with the blokes , bloketes and wankers from blighty  .


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## Unkotare (Aug 22, 2014)

pismoe said:


> if teachers don't like the pay then why do they go to school to get jobs as teachers ??




Because they wanted to teach. (You probably could have gotten that one by yourself)


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## pismoe (Aug 22, 2014)

Well they want to teach let them teach for whatever the rate of pay is !!   The solution is just so obvious Unkatore !!   And I'd think that teachers would be smart enough to figger that out for themselves .


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## Unkotare (Aug 22, 2014)

pismoe said:


> Well they want to teach let them teach for whatever the rate of pay is !!   ... .



Yeah, they do. No need for exclamation marks, genius.


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## pismoe (Aug 23, 2014)

aww , they don't wanna teach , they just want to disrupt and cry for MORE taxpater dollars Unkatore .


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## Unkotare (Aug 23, 2014)

pismoe said:


> aww , they don't wanna teach , they just want to disrupt and cry for MORE taxpater dollars Unkatore .




No, most of them want to teach.


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## pismoe (Aug 23, 2014)

plus they want to be special and esteemed as educators .   Yeah , educators with special knowledge and skills while they / some mess with little kids minds .


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## pismoe (Aug 23, 2014)

so more mindless assertions and proclamations / opinions ehh Unkatore as you say Most of them  .   Let'em teach for the going rates of pay plus get rid of their unions .


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## Unkotare (Aug 23, 2014)

pismoe said:


> so more mindless assertions and proclamations / opinions ehh ...




Nope, just more obvious truth. Sorry if it burns your eyes to read it.


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## pismoe (Aug 23, 2014)

makes me smile as I read yer words Unkatore , makes me smile !!


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## pismoe (Aug 23, 2014)

MOST of them want to teach , well let them teach for the regular rate of pay !!


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## Flanders (Aug 23, 2014)

*Tax dollars funding a religion goes right to the heart of the First Amendment. Imagine the priesthood of a major religion with access to compulsory tax dollar donations. They would do the same things teachers’ unions are doing.  

Obviously, Congress and the federal courts refuse to stop tax dollars from being used to impose the morality of one group or another on the country. If ever there is a constitutional convention an addition to the First Amendment should prohibit the public purse from being used for anything except clearly defined necessary government. 

Liberal states like California abuse the income tax which pays for all of Socialism’s garbage. Note that teachers are paid with income tax dollars; so teachers’ unions not only abuse their members they abuse every productive American that pays a tax on their income.  Also note that America’s decline began in 1913 with the XVI Amendment.* 



> Teachers Pay Price for Leaving Union
> By Mary C. Tillotson | Watchdog.org
> 
> Teachers pay price for leaving union Watchdog.org


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## Unkotare (Aug 23, 2014)

pismoe said:


> MOST of them want to teach , well let them teach for the regular rate of pay !!



Let them teach for whatever they can negotiate as the value of their skills, you mean.


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## Samson (Aug 23, 2014)

regent said:


> Teachers spend four or five years in college learning to be a teacher and then almost half quit teaching in the first five years they teach.



Yes, because it takes only 5 years for teacher salaries to begin to approach their maximum



initforme said:


> That is correct because when one becomes a teacher they have forfeited their ability to earn a lot more in the private sector.   They have sacrificed their earning potential big time.



They have not forfeited anything unless they continue teaching after 5 years.

They system is designed to accommodate teachers for about 5 years, not 20 years. It goes well beyond salary, which is the most tangible employment benefit, but also extends to very poor health insurance benefits (there is almost no employer contribution), and retirement benefits (there is no 401K "matching").

Regardless, as government jobs are concerned, teachers do pretty well: Average Teaching Salary with Average Cop, Average Firefighter, or the average 1st Lt right out of school.


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## haissem123 (Aug 23, 2014)

you people have no problem giving billions to anybody that corners the so called free market ie bloomberg goldmen sacs etc.. but let some one who teaches your kids, and actually spends much more time raising them then we do, make a decent or middle class living and you cry foul? I just don't get your logic. you must have had some worthless teachers to learn this. Or was it your parents? yep I blame your parents cause the teachers made too much to be bad. just like bloomberg. he's a good guy too.


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## haissem123 (Aug 23, 2014)

you people don't see that your worth is being judged and you give away the cow to a few that had some "amazing ideas or song or show". you better stop worshipping idols and start judging from the top down. it's amazing how little you people value honest work and worship farts in the wind


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## Samson (Aug 23, 2014)

Unkotare said:


> pismoe said:
> 
> 
> > if teachers don't like the pay then why do they go to school to get jobs as teachers ??
> ...




One wonders WHY they ever thought they wanted to teach?

What glamorized the job enough for anyone to invest in 4-5 years of higher education to do this?


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## haissem123 (Aug 23, 2014)

judge not less ye be judged. what are you worth? as much as you can get? and your gang tries to take as much as it can get. so does the teachers gang. what's the problem? you are forced to pay for insurance? but you can shop around? oh well, sour grapes. go spend some time with today's crazy self centered youth  and see how much you want to be paid. no i'm not a teacher as you can see by the spelling and not in union. so save those two for some one else. we should all be judging each other much more equally and honestly. i don't think some one selling me bad stock or bonds on the free market should make millions as millions lose their homes because of their swindles. that's a dishonest and unwary living off other's misery. but do you hear me crying?


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## Unkotare (Aug 23, 2014)

Samson said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> > pismoe said:
> ...




Why do some people want to be doctors?


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## Unkotare (Aug 23, 2014)

haissem123 said:


> judge not less ye be judged. what are you worth? as much as you can get? and your gang tries to take as much as it can get. so does the teachers gang. what's the problem? you are forced to pay for insurance? but you can shop around? oh well, sour grapes. go spend some time with today's crazy self centered youth  and see how much you want to be paid. no i'm not a teacher as you can see by the spelling and not in union. so save those two for some one else. we should all be judging each other much more equally and honestly. i don't think some one selling me bad stock or bonds on the free market should make millions as millions lose their homes because of their swindles. that's a dishonest and unwary living off other's misery. but do you hear me crying?




Was there a point in there?


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## haissem123 (Aug 23, 2014)

you often miss the point my hairycarey friend. find the point of the scissor and get a hair cut you damned hippy. lol. only kiddn. I can't spell out all my points to you. i'm a riddle wrapped in an enimma shoved up your arse and spewed across the intertoilet


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## Unkotare (Aug 23, 2014)

Go sleep it off, Cheech.


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## pismoe (Aug 23, 2014)

doctors , dentists and cooks have skills and live on their reputations and if you don't like a Doctor or Dentist or restaurant you just don't go back to them as you go to the next doctor ,  dentist or restaurant , pretty simple Unkatare .   Teachers with their unions have parents and students by the short hair as they whine for more money .  Private schools may be different as I don't think that they have teachers unions .    Private school teacher gets paid based on their reputation and performance I think .


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## jasonnfree (Aug 23, 2014)

Flanders said:


> *Tax dollars funding a religion goes right to the heart of the First Amendment. Imagine the priesthood of a major religion with access to compulsory tax dollar donations. They would do the same things teachers’ unions are doing.
> 
> Obviously, Congress and the federal courts refuse to stop tax dollars from being used to impose the morality of one group or another on the country. If ever there is a constitutional convention an addition to the First Amendment should prohibit the public purse from being used for anything except clearly defined necessary government.
> 
> ...



Are you a teacher or in the education field to know so much about schools, teachers, and unions?


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## haissem123 (Aug 23, 2014)

everything is paid by tax payers dollars one way or another. I see it cost millions per mile of road in new jersey and I don't hear a word about the construction companies owners raking in billions for sitting home doing absolutely nothing but raking it in. in fact they have accounts rake it in. you have graft all over and do nothing about that but you go after teachers? why? cause you feed on stupid people that watch you cowardly attack education as you let your bosses and ceos of everything take the lion's share which is what's really killing us all. your cowardice is what's killing us all. you attack the weak as you are fed upon by the lions of industry and corruption of all kinds. stand up to those beating you down and for your fair share of heaven here you cowards.


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## haissem123 (Aug 23, 2014)

wheres the 50 million in charity aid christy kept? how do you know where any of your tax money goes? how do you believe any of it from any of them? i don't trust any of you as I shouldn't and this is the down fall of rome. all out for ourselves we all fall together.


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## JakeStarkey (Aug 23, 2014)

Flanders is wrong.  Nothing new.

Teachers deserve a 70,000 dollar starting salary.


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## haissem123 (Aug 23, 2014)

70k would barely be middle class as it was deemed in the 80s. You people haven't noticed that the average salaries haven't moved in decades.? I know, all the real heroes make cool apps and video games. That's cool too. you are all rock stars celebrities like mork. holy crap that lot of your heroes are.


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## Mr Natural (Aug 23, 2014)

If you think the kids are stupid now, wait until the grossly underpaid start "teaching" them.


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## pismoe (Aug 23, 2014)

why would the grossly underpaid be teachers Mr. Clean .    I wouldn't take a job that grossly underpays me , why would a EDUCATED teacher take that kinda job ??


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## pismoe (Aug 23, 2014)

also , concerning your mention of Doctors Unkatore .   Different subject but with obamacare the choice to just go to different doctors and dentistslike I could do  may be long gone for regular people  .


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## Unkotare (Aug 23, 2014)

pismoe said:


> ... why would a EDUCATED teacher take that kinda job ??


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## pismoe (Aug 23, 2014)

yep ,  students go to school for awhile to be certified as teachers and they supposedly become educated but they still don't know the pay scale of for the teaching jobs that they seek  .    Doesn't sound very smart to me Unkatore .   And then some people in this thread want to pay these dumb teacher wanabees  more cash because the dummies want more cash .


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## Unkotare (Aug 23, 2014)

pismoe said:


> yep ,  students go to school for awhile to be certified as teachers and they supposedly become educated but they still don't know the pay scale of for the teaching jobs that they seek  .    Doesn't sound very smart to me Unkatore .   And then some people in this thread want to pay these dumb teacher wanabees  more cash because the dummies want more cash .





Are you bitter because your teachers so clearly failed to educate you? Don't blame them, just look what they had to work with.


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## Mr Natural (Aug 23, 2014)

pismoe said:


> why would the grossly underpaid be teachers Mr. Clean .    I wouldn't take a job that grossly underpays me , why would a EDUCATED teacher take that kinda job ??



You're  going to have to ask  your right wing buddies that question.  They seem to think teachers are overpaid.


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## pismoe (Aug 23, 2014)

just some insults ehh Unkatore .    You understand my position on this subject and my position is not going to change because of yer silly arguments !!


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## pismoe (Aug 23, 2014)

my buddies are simply me Mr Clean , my position is all my thinking and reasoning .


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## Unkotare (Aug 23, 2014)

pismoe said:


> my buddies are simply me .. .




There's a surprise...


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## Samson (Aug 23, 2014)

Unkotare said:


> haissem123 said:
> 
> 
> > judge not less ye be judged. what are you worth? as much as you can get? and your gang tries to take as much as it can get. so does the teachers gang. what's the problem? you are forced to pay for insurance? but you can shop around? oh well, sour grapes. go spend some time with today's crazy self centered youth  and see how much you want to be paid. no i'm not a teacher as you can see by the spelling and not in union. so save those two for some one else. we should all be judging each other much more equally and honestly. i don't think some one selling me bad stock or bonds on the free market should make millions as millions lose their homes because of their swindles. that's a dishonest and unwary living off other's misery. but do you hear me crying?
> ...



It's ironic that you'd ask.


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## Samson (Aug 23, 2014)

Unkotare said:


> Samson said:
> 
> 
> > Unkotare said:
> ...




Glory in the victory of life over death.
High salary.
Ability to easily self medicate.

Now I'll pay attention to those that can answer my simple question and avoid boring the fuck out of me with your usual weave and dodge.


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## pismoe (Aug 23, 2014)

yep , doctors made - make good money and I'm sure they researched money making ability of Doctors before they decided to become Doctors .   Teachers should be so smart !!  And then or even before the money I'm sure that many wanted to save lives .   Self medication , aww I don't know, maybe  .


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## Samson (Aug 23, 2014)

Mr Clean said:


> If you think the kids are stupid now, wait until the grossly underpaid start "teaching" them.




You've decided to begin teaching: Thanks for the warning.


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## Samson (Aug 23, 2014)

JakeStarkey said:


> Flanders is wrong.  Nothing new.
> 
> Teachers deserve a 70,000 dollar starting salary.




And you deserve a lobotomy.

Neither is a realistic expectation.


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## Unkotare (Aug 23, 2014)

Samson said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> > haissem123 said:
> ...




Thanks


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## saveliberty (Aug 23, 2014)

Two of my kids are teachers.  They teach at charter schools and are paid substantially less then public school teachers.  The addition of charter schools has increased teacher employment over the last ten years or more.  Perhaps you should have noted more schools also?

Mine choose charter schools because they can actually teach.


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## Unkotare (Aug 23, 2014)

Samson said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> > Samson said:
> ...





Keep guessing...


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## JakeStarkey (Aug 23, 2014)

Samson said:


> JakeStarkey said:
> 
> 
> > Flanders is wrong.  Nothing new.
> ...



non sequitur


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## percysunshine (Aug 23, 2014)

JakeStarkey said:


> Samson said:
> 
> 
> > JakeStarkey said:
> ...



Why? Did you already have one?

.


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## JakeStarkey (Aug 23, 2014)

And right on cue, percylobotomy chimes in.

You folks are priceless.


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## Samson (Aug 23, 2014)

Unkotare said:


> Samson said:
> 
> 
> > Unkotare said:
> ...



nah....***yawn***


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## Unkotare (Aug 23, 2014)

Samson said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> > Samson said:
> ...




Then continue being an ignorant slob. I'm sure you can do that.


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## haissem123 (Aug 25, 2014)

if it's all about the money, what do yo suppose you all are gonna do when your done choosing a few and all the money is gone? Then you can research how much hell there is to pay for our greed


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## DGS49 (Aug 26, 2014)

(1)  Last time I checked, teacher salaries and benefits are set at the school district level.  Any general statement about public-school teacher compensation in America is patent nonsense.

(2)  It is undeniable that collective bargaining - where it exists - has had the effect of increasing teacher compensation (pay, benefits, retirement) at a much more rapid rate than private sector pay for "comparable" positions (one could argue that there are no comparable positions in the private sector).  In wealthier school districts around the country, six figure compensation for teachers at the top of the scale is common, while retirement in the mid-50's is the norm.  At these levels, one could say that the typical public school teacher is stunningly over-compensated.  And we taxpayers are paying through the  nose, thank you very much.

(3)  The combination of public sector employment generally and collective bargaining specifically has resulted in a cadre of teachers which includes, unfortunately, a large number of incompetent, unmotivated, and/or criminally misguided teachers, all of whom have lifetime tenure and guaranteed compensation.  And there's not a fucking thing we parents and taxpayers can do about it.  Which leads to a lot of resentment in the taxpayer-parent class.

(4)  In spite of the denials of advocates, once you settle in as a teacher (2-3 years experience), your job is - I won't say, "part-time" because that's inflammatory, but - less than full-time.  They get a 10-week summer vacation for Christ sake, and lots of days off during the school year.  Can you imagine 180 work-days a year, plus a few days for preparation and grading?

(5)  "Education" is not a science.  In spite of countless billions of dollars being spent on it, "we" still don't know the best method of imparting knowledge to students.  Some teachers are better at it than others, and we haven't been able to quantify why that is.   And it doesn't matter because there is no way to get rid of teachers who can't do it, or force teachers to teach any particular way anyhow.

(6)  Even the best teacher in the world can't teach a kid who is not prepared and willing to learn.


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## CitizenSeven (Aug 26, 2014)

You may value teachers, but I don't.  Consequently, I advocate that their pay is as low as the market will bear.  Look at private schools:  teachers generally make less in them than at their public counterparts, and they generally do a much better job.  Thus, we know what the glorified babysitters are worth when people get a choice.


----------



## DGS49 (Aug 26, 2014)

Good teachers are invaluable.  They should be paid handsomely. 

Poor teachers are worse than worthless - they provide negative value.

Too bad we can't hire more of the former and get rid of the latter.  But we can't.


----------



## Unkotare (Aug 26, 2014)

CitizenSeven said:


> You may value teachers, but I don't.  ...




And look what a dope you are.


----------



## bodecea (Aug 26, 2014)

Jeremiah said:


> Oy vey.   First they create the problem with nonsense teaching of evolution and banning God from the classroom and now they want to complain they have a discipline problem.  Please make up your minds!


I would very much like to see the studies proving that teaching evolution and banning god from classrooms is what CAUSES discipline problems at school.   Please link those studies and their results.


----------



## CitizenSeven (Aug 26, 2014)

Unkotare said:


> CitizenSeven said:
> 
> 
> > You may value teachers, but I don't.  ...
> ...


We disagree on relative value of services.  You want to pay them 70k, I want to pay them zero.  The compromise is split the difference, 35k, which is still less than they are currently getting paid.  Not too bad for just a Bachelors fresh out of college, with a joke of a degree.


----------



## Unkotare (Aug 26, 2014)

CitizenSeven said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> > CitizenSeven said:
> ...




When did I say that, dope? Seems you missed out on learning any logic in school. I don't blame your teachers; look what they had to work with.


----------



## Unkotare (Aug 26, 2014)

CitizenSeven said:


> [  Not to bad for just a Bachelors fresh out of college, with a joke of a degree.




What "joke of a degree"? History? Biology? English Literature? Physics? Chemistry? Foreign languages? All "jokes"?


----------



## CitizenSeven (Aug 26, 2014)

Well, someone posted that number.  My apologies if it wasn't you.  So, I take it you don't think teachers deserve 70k.  Then we are in agreement, and it's just a matter of negotiation downward at this point.


----------



## CitizenSeven (Aug 26, 2014)

Unkotare said:


> CitizenSeven said:
> 
> 
> > [  Not to bad for just a Bachelors fresh out of college, with a joke of a degree.
> ...


No, "Education", with essentially a beefy minor in the topic of interest.  I've known many "education" majors and while they may be whiz-bang at the "learning theory" du jour, their grasp of their supposed area of expertise is below a mediocre major in the field.


----------



## Unkotare (Aug 26, 2014)

CitizenSeven said:


> So, I take it you don't think teachers deserve 70k.  Then we are in agreement, and it's just a matter of negotiation downward at this point.




Did you actively avoid learning the first thing about logic during your school years?


----------



## Unkotare (Aug 26, 2014)

CitizenSeven said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> > CitizenSeven said:
> ...



Thanks for another logical fallacy.


----------



## CitizenSeven (Aug 26, 2014)

Unkotare said:


> CitizenSeven said:
> 
> 
> > Unkotare said:
> ...



That's not a logical fallacy, that's my observation of the "worth" of teachers who majored in education.  You should learn what a "logical fallacy" actually is before you start using it in sentences.


----------



## Unkotare (Aug 26, 2014)

CitizenSeven said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> > CitizenSeven said:
> ...




I know exactly what it means, and that is exactly what your illogical conclusion based on personal anecdote is. Seems you don't value education in general. Is that so?


----------



## CitizenSeven (Aug 26, 2014)

Unkotare said:


> CitizenSeven said:
> 
> 
> > So, I take it you don't think teachers deserve 70k.  Then we are in agreement, and it's just a matter of negotiation downward at this point.
> ...



You claimed that you never said they should earn 70k per year and, the way you expressed it, it certainly was implied that 70k was ludicrously high.  So, I take it that you don't think they should earn 70k, you don't think they should earn less, so therefore you must be advocating they earn more.  That's just plain funny, given the utility of the degree, the very loose labor market for that "skill", and the fact that private sector teachers earn much less on average.


----------



## CitizenSeven (Aug 26, 2014)

Unkotare said:


> CitizenSeven said:
> 
> 
> > Unkotare said:
> ...


Based on those observations of relative talent, I concluded that teachers are no where near worth 70k.  I know I wouldn't pay it and, apparently, the market for the most part agrees with me.  That's a perfectly logical conclusion.


----------



## rightwinger (Aug 26, 2014)

CitizenSeven said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> > CitizenSeven said:
> ...


 
A teacher who lives in Manhattan should make $70K, a teacher who lives in your trailer park should make quite a bit less


----------



## CitizenSeven (Aug 26, 2014)

rightwinger said:


> CitizenSeven said:
> 
> 
> > Unkotare said:
> ...


I disagree with both points.  The first is a very skewed over compensation for a simplistic job by someone who can't, while the second is just factually incorrect.


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## rightwinger (Aug 26, 2014)

Teachers have been some of the most influential people in my life and in my childrens lives.


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## CitizenSeven (Aug 26, 2014)

rightwinger said:


> Teachers have been some of the most influential people in my life and in my childrens lives.


My condolences.


----------



## rightwinger (Aug 26, 2014)

CitizenSeven said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> > Teachers have been some of the most influential people in my life and in my childrens lives.
> ...


 Actually, my condolences extend to you for never having a great teacher in your life.  I can see why you are so cynical, but I can also see why that may have contributed to your bad relationships with teachers


----------



## Unkotare (Aug 26, 2014)

CitizenSeven said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> > CitizenSeven said:
> ...




I didn't say anything about "ludicrously high." You seriously have no idea at all about logic, do you?


----------



## Unkotare (Aug 26, 2014)

CitizenSeven said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> > CitizenSeven said:
> ...




Man, you are lost.


----------



## Unkotare (Aug 26, 2014)

CitizenSeven said:


> The first is a very skewed over compensation for a simplistic job ....




How do you know it's a "simplistic job"? I think you must be a simpleton.


----------



## rightwinger (Aug 26, 2014)

CitizenSeven said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> > CitizenSeven said:
> ...


 
I have known many experts in their field who are incapable of explaining it to others in a manner they will comprehend. That is where teachers come in


----------



## CitizenSeven (Aug 26, 2014)

rightwinger said:


> CitizenSeven said:
> 
> 
> > rightwinger said:
> ...


I didn't have "bad relationships with teachers", certainly not when I went to school, but  have seen the incompetence of k-12 public school teachers in their supposed area of expertise.  I'm not talking about "teaching skill", rather basic competency in their nominal fields.


----------



## CitizenSeven (Aug 26, 2014)

Unkotare said:


> CitizenSeven said:
> 
> 
> > Unkotare said:
> ...


No, you didn't say "ludicrously high", nor did I claim you did.  By your dismissive tone regarding my incorrect attribution of that number, it certainly implied that you thought it was ludicrously high.  That's why I said "was implied" rather than "you said".  See the difference?  In the latter case, I would have falsely attributed a statement to you.  In the former, and actually occurring, case, I inferred by your dismissive tone that you thought it was ridiculously high.

You really don't understand logic, and that's ok, but you might want to be a bit more circumspect incorrectly attributing misuse.


----------



## bodecea (Aug 26, 2014)

pismoe said:


> doctors , dentists and cooks have skills and live on their reputations and if you don't like a Doctor or Dentist or restaurant you just don't go back to them as you go to the next doctor ,  dentist or restaurant , pretty simple Unkatare .   Teachers with their unions have parents and students by the short hair as they whine for more money .  Private schools may be different as I don't think that they have teachers unions .    Private school teacher gets paid based on their reputation and performance I think .


Dentists don't get blamed for their rate of patient cavities if the patients refuse to maintain good dental hygiene, do they?


----------



## bodecea (Aug 26, 2014)

CitizenSeven said:


> You may value teachers, but I don't.  Consequently, I advocate that their pay is as low as the market will bear.  Look at private schools:  teachers generally make less in them than at their public counterparts, and* they generally do a much better job.*  Thus, we know what the glorified babysitters are worth when people get a choice.


Why do you think that is? (If it's true, that is)


----------



## CitizenSeven (Aug 26, 2014)

bodecea said:


> CitizenSeven said:
> 
> 
> > You may value teachers, but I don't.  Consequently, I advocate that their pay is as low as the market will bear.  Look at private schools:  teachers generally make less in them than at their public counterparts, and* they generally do a much better job.*  Thus, we know what the glorified babysitters are worth when people get a choice.
> ...


Well, a combination of personal experience dealing with representatives of both demographics, as well as data that supports the observation.


----------



## rightwinger (Aug 26, 2014)

CitizenSeven said:


> bodecea said:
> 
> 
> > CitizenSeven said:
> ...


 That chart would mean something if thay all had the same student population


----------



## bodecea (Aug 26, 2014)

CitizenSeven said:


> bodecea said:
> 
> 
> > CitizenSeven said:
> ...


How about parental interest?  A parent who takes the time, the effort, the money to put their student in a private school is an engaged parent.


----------



## CitizenSeven (Aug 26, 2014)

bodecea said:


> CitizenSeven said:
> 
> 
> > bodecea said:
> ...


Absolutely.  Generally, people take more of an interest in things they pay for than stuff that is just handed to them.


----------



## CitizenSeven (Aug 26, 2014)

rightwinger said:


> CitizenSeven said:
> 
> 
> > bodecea said:
> ...


They do:  High School students taking the SAT.  After that, well, if you want to grade the scores on a curve based on demographics, that's your prerogative.   I'm more interested in the bottom line, and that is Private schools score higher than Public.


----------



## Unkotare (Aug 26, 2014)

CitizenSeven said:


> By your dismissive tone regarding my incorrect attribution of that number, it certainly implied that you thought it was ludicrously high.  .




Nothing was implied. You made an asinine assumption.


----------



## Unkotare (Aug 26, 2014)

CitizenSeven said:


> You really don't understand logic...




I really do, and you would do yourself a big favor by studying it a little. You might make yourself look a bit less foolish.


----------



## rightwinger (Aug 26, 2014)

CitizenSeven said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> > CitizenSeven said:
> ...


 They are not the same demographic that attends all three types of schools

Religious schools and independent schools get to choose who they admit and kick out those they do not like. Public schools do not


----------



## jasonnfree (Aug 26, 2014)

CitizenSeven said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> > CitizenSeven said:
> ...



The way you write is confusing.  Maybe taking a


CitizenSeven said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> > CitizenSeven said:
> ...



Why not just write to get your point across instead of trying to impress?  Put down the Roget's and maybe take a class in English and composition is my advice.


----------



## EdwardBaiamonte (Aug 26, 2014)

rightwinger said:


> CitizenSeven said:
> 
> 
> > rightwinger said:
> ...



private schools are going to be far better in that the parents are more successful, can earn and pay tuition, and care to police their children if only to get their money's worth. Public schools have none of that they are free and so parents don't care as much. They tend to be huge factories where even advanced students can be ruined by the common often ghetto culture.


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## initforme (Aug 26, 2014)

It depends where one lives.   The public schools where I live offer much more and outperform the private schools.  Where we live I value teachers and would like to see them make more for what they offer.   They are a dedicated bunch of people.   The proof is in the pudding as the kids are successful.   The vast majority go onto further schooling.  I think the number that have joined the military upon graduating the past 5 years can be counted on 1 hand.  We have a good thing going.   Parents are involved, the schools are flourishing.   I'm an advocate for more pay for them.


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## EdwardBaiamonte (Aug 26, 2014)

initforme said:


> It depends where one lives.   The public schools where I live offer much more and outperform the private schools.  Where we live I value teachers and would like to see them make more for what they offer.   They are a dedicated bunch of people.   The proof is in the pudding as the kids are successful.   The vast majority go onto further schooling.  I think the number that have joined the military upon graduating the past 5 years can be counted on 1 hand.  We have a good thing going.   Parents are involved, the schools are flourishing.   I'm an advocate for more pay for them.



dear, VA offered great care until it did not. The only way to exert constant upward pressure is with capitalism. It makes doing well a daily issue because every day is a matter of life and death when you encourage competition.


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## Unkotare (Aug 26, 2014)

initforme said:


> The proof is in the pudding as the kids are successful.   The vast majority go onto further schooling.  I think the number that have joined the military upon graduating the past 5 years can be counted on 1 hand. ...




Choosing to serve the country in the military sounds pretty damn successful to me.


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## bodecea (Aug 26, 2014)

CitizenSeven said:


> bodecea said:
> 
> 
> > CitizenSeven said:
> ...


So..what kind of clientele does that leave for the public schools?


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## bodecea (Aug 26, 2014)

initforme said:


> It depends where one lives.   The public schools where I live offer much more and outperform the private schools.  Where we live I value teachers and would like to see them make more for what they offer.   They are a dedicated bunch of people.   The proof is in the pudding as the kids are successful.   The vast majority go onto further schooling.  I think the number *that have joined the military upon graduating the past 5 years can be counted on 1 hand. * We have a good thing going.   Parents are involved, the schools are flourishing.   I'm an advocate for more pay for them.


What point are you trying to make with that comment?


----------



## JakeStarkey (Aug 26, 2014)

CitizenSeven said:


> You may value teachers, but I don't.  Consequently, I advocate that their pay is as low as the market will bear.  Look at private schools:  teachers generally make less in them than at their public counterparts, and they generally do a much better job.  Thus, we know what the glorified babysitters are worth when people get a choice.



What an illiterate comment about the profession.

Obviously, you were home schooled.

Read up on the subject before you end any doubt about just how ignorant you are on the subject.

Citizen7 was one of those students who were unprepared and unwilling to learn.


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## Samson (Aug 26, 2014)

Most interesting is the Pct (%) of the "Test Takers" from each population: 84% Public School population takes the SAT Reasoning test, but only 5% "Independent" school attendees took the test. I wonder why? I wonder how the mean scores would compare if only 5% Public School attendees took the test, and 84% Independent attendees?


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## Politico (Aug 27, 2014)

Jeremiah said:


> Interesting, Flanders.  I do know that teachers are very well paid and that they also get a very long vacation - all summer long!



That.


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## rightwinger (Aug 27, 2014)

Samson said:


> Most interesting is the Pct (%) of the "Test Takers" from each population: 84% Public School population takes the SAT Reasoning test, but only 5% "Independent" school attendees took the test. I wonder why? I wonder how the mean scores would compare if only 5% Public School attendees took the test, and 84% Independent attendees?


You are reading the chart wrong

84+11+5= 100%

That is percent of all students taking the test


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## CitizenSeven (Aug 27, 2014)

Samson said:


> Most interesting is the Pct (%) of the "Test Takers" from each population: 84% Public School population takes the SAT Reasoning test, but only 5% "Independent" school attendees took the test. I wonder why? I wonder how the mean scores would compare if only 5% Public School attendees took the test, and 84% Independent attendees?



That's not percent who took the test, that's percent of population.  Notice how it adds up to 100%.  Also note that if you add up the number of test takers and use it for the divisor for the individual entry's number, you get the number in the Pct column.


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## JT8691 (Aug 27, 2014)

I know what I signed up for--so I wont bitch about how much I make. I accept it, and I'm actually fine with it.

BUT I work A LOT more than 40 hours a week (which is all I'm paid for). Just saying.


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## Samson (Aug 27, 2014)

JT8691 said:


> I know what I signed up for--so I wont bitch about how much I make. I accept it, and I'm actually fine with it.
> 
> BUT I work A LOT more than 40 hours a week (which is all I'm paid for). Just saying.



Most salaried employees work more than 40 hr/w


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## Samson (Aug 27, 2014)

Unkotare said:


> CitizenSeven said:
> 
> 
> > By your dismissive tone regarding my incorrect attribution of that number, it certainly implied that you thought it was ludicrously high.  .
> ...





Unkotare said:


> initforme said:
> 
> 
> > The proof is in the pudding as the kids are successful.   The vast majority go onto further schooling.  I think the number that have joined the military upon graduating the past 5 years can be counted on 1 hand. ...
> ...



Reading your posts, it is clear that your standards for success are not terribly high.


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## Unkotare (Aug 27, 2014)

Samson said:


> Reading your posts, it is clear that your standards for success are not terribly high.




And yet, you seem like a real loser according to my standards, champ.


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## JT8691 (Aug 28, 2014)

Samson said:


> Most salaried employees work more than 40 hr/w



Teachers get paid by the hour in my district.


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## Samson (Aug 28, 2014)

JT8691 said:


> Samson said:
> 
> 
> > Most salaried employees work more than 40 hr/w
> ...




I've never heard of this anywhere. Most teachers are salaried government employees.


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## WorldWatcher (Aug 28, 2014)

JT8691 said:


> BUT I work A LOT more than 40 hours a week (which is all I'm paid for). Just saying.





JT8691 said:


> Samson said:
> 
> 
> > Most salaried employees work more than 40 hr/w
> ...




At face value these two statements seem to be contradictory.  You say you are paid by the hour and then say you are only paid for 40 hours per week yet work "A LOT" more than 40 hours.

Mind posting the school district and state you work in.  I'd like to verify that?



>>>>


----------



## Papageorgio (Aug 28, 2014)

haissem123 said:


> judge not less ye be judged. what are you worth? as much as you can get? and your gang tries to take as much as it can get. so does the teachers gang. what's the problem? you are forced to pay for insurance? but you can shop around? oh well, sour grapes. go spend some time with today's crazy self centered youth  and see how much you want to be paid. no i'm not a teacher as you can see by the spelling and not in union. so save those two for some one else. we should all be judging each other much more equally and honestly. i don't think some one selling me bad stock or bonds on the free market should make millions as millions lose their homes because of their swindles. that's a dishonest and unwary living off other's misery. but do you hear me crying?



So a person going to college sees that their chosen profession pays X. They graduate from college and get a job in their chosen profession and get paid X, but since they graduated now want Y, not seeing why they deserve Y, when they were told they'd get X and still pursued their careers.


----------



## haissem123 (Aug 28, 2014)

x + y = bs  going to school to learn how to hide the truth in a court of law, which is what lawyers are presently paid for. Lawyers legally drawing up laws against the people they are meant to protect is also bullshit and shall fall to the truth of God's laws. Those going to learn banking, wall street economics, that was suppose to help people wisely invest in growing companies for the benefit of them and others with in that company, as corporations were first established and charged to do, has now come to serve a chosen few. those few have chosen the wrong path and you all followed blindly. now we shall pay for our stupidty and sloth


----------



## Jackson (Aug 28, 2014)

Flanders said:


> > Teachers are underpaid.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



There's a classroom waiting for you!  Let's see how long you last!  Now, the trick is to be a GOOD teacher!


----------



## Jackson (Aug 28, 2014)

pismoe said:


> if teachers don't like the pay then why do they go to school to get jobs as teachers Unkatare ??   Teachers are s'posed to be smart but getting a [supposedly] low paying job as a teacher doesn't sound very smart to me . Maybe teachers oughta get jobs where they like the pay scale !!



Teaching is like a "calling" for preachers.  It isn't for the pay.  They work beyond the classroom hours preparing for class and grading papers after class.  They work on motivational strategies outside of the classroom, decorating the classroom on their own time, etc.  Most teacher stay after school to have conferences with parents when behavioral or classwork problems arise.  Teacher meetings, grant meetings and PTA meetings are also unpaid.

No 9-5 job for teachers.  Summer work usually involves college classes to update their certificates which is ongoing for most teachers..


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## Papageorgio (Aug 28, 2014)

haissem123 said:


> x + y = bs  going to school to learn how to hide the truth in a court of law, which is what lawyers are presently paid for. Lawyers legally drawing up laws against the people they are meant to protect is also bullshit and shall fall to the truth of God's laws. Those going to learn banking, wall street economics, that was suppose to help people wisely invest in growing companies for the benefit of them and others with in that company, as corporations were first established and charged to do, has now come to serve a chosen few. those few have chosen the wrong path and you all followed blindly. now we shall pay for our stupidty and sloth



Bottom line, you know going in that teaching doesn't pay squat. Why bitch and moan when you start teaching, don't act so stupid.


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## pismoe (Aug 28, 2014)

hey Jackson , --- voluntary extra work is fine and I applaud it but if its VOLUNTARY then they shouldn't complain about pay .   If teaching is a calling then they know the pay scale before the try to become teachers !!


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## Papageorgio (Aug 28, 2014)

JT8691 said:


> I know what I signed up for--so I wont bitch about how much I make. I accept it, and I'm actually fine with it.
> 
> BUT I work A LOT more than 40 hours a week (which is all I'm paid for). Just saying.



I work a lot more than 40 hours a week, it's called salary, you do what you need to do to get the job done.


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## pismoe (Aug 28, 2014)

morning Unkatore , hows it goin .   Yeah , voluntary work is work that is done voluntarily and volunteer work should be done with no expectation of payment .    Simple solution is for teachers to quit beating the drum [tootin their horn]  about volunteer work and quit doing volunteer work !!   [simple solution]


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## JT8691 (Aug 28, 2014)

Flopper said:


> You think a 6 to 8 year old kid should be able to eat whatever they want?  This has been many school districts approach for years, hot dogs, french frys, and ice cream. What kid is going to select fresh salads and fruits instead candy bars and soda pops. I understand your point about government control of our lives, but that's exactly what young kids need in schools, not freedom of choice.





Papageorgio said:


> I work a lot more than 40 hours a week, it's called salary, you do what you need to do to get the job done.



I'm paid by the hour not salary. Info agree with your premise though. Personally I don't bitch and so my job however long it takes


----------



## JT8691 (Aug 28, 2014)

Tell you what I won't post it publicly but I'll pm it to you if you admit I'm not full of shit. Deal?

By "work" more than 40 hours I mean mostly planning and grading. I work 8 hours a day. I have 6 classes, lunch, and a planning period. Planning period is only 50 mins long.

Now i currently have a little over 150 students. I make every student write everyday (I teach English). At least two  paragraphs...many times they need to write more (it really depends on the day and what the lesson is).

That's 300+ paragraphs everyday. I'm paid 50 mins to grade/revise all of those AND plan for future classes (I have 2 preps meaning I teach 9th and 10th grade so I need to plan two separate lessons).

If I have essays to grade/revise  times that by 100 or 50,

Now you tell me is it really possible that I can do all of that in 50 minutes a day?Maybe if I was a shitty teacher who didn't care I would (and unfortunately there are many out there).

It's why many English teachers don't bother to read a lot of the work students hand in (which for the record I think is bs).

So I think we can agree that in order to do my job effectively I need to work more than 8 hours a day (40 hours a week).

Now I am paid hourly. Obviously I get sick/personal days (which I've never taken).

Oh and the icing on the cake? As a non-education major (which I like to think makes me well rounded) I have to pay to take classes during the school year for the state.

I want to make it crystal clear I'm NOT bitching. I know what I signed up for. I'm fine with it.

What pisses me off is people who have no clue what they're talking about comment about what my job entails because they heard from somewhere else. I don't assume I know everything your job entails, don't make assumptions about mine either.

A lot of what you hear or may perceive is true. A lot of it is bullshit.

What pisses me off the most is that I bust my ass every single day to do the best possible job for my students and people belittle me (usually because they assume I'm a liberal-which I'm not). Or they blame everything on teachers  when they won't buy their kid a $1 folder or notch about having to buy a $8 book but will buy their kid $300 shoes. That's their choice and it's fine. But when you tell your kidneys more important to have a pair of Air Jordan 7s than it is to get an education-----don't blame me when your kid doesn't take school seriously.

Ps: oh and for the record I opted out of the teachers union (which in all fairness did ruffle the feathers of some co-workers but not all and I'm not the only one to do so).



WorldWatcher said:


> At face value these two statements seem to be contradictory.  You say you are paid by the hour and then say you are only paid for 40 hours per week yet work "A LOT" more than 40 hours.
> 
> Mind posting the school district and state you work in.  I'd like to verify that?
> 
> ...


----------



## rightwinger (Aug 28, 2014)

Teachers work around 2/3 the hours of other professionals and they get around 2/3 of the pay

Seems about right


----------



## JT8691 (Aug 28, 2014)

rightwinger said:


> Teachers work around 2/3 the hours of other professionals and they get around 2/3 of the pay
> 
> Seems about right



Most teachers work more hours than most professionals.


----------



## rightwinger (Aug 28, 2014)

JT8691 said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> > Teachers work around 2/3 the hours of other professionals and they get around 2/3 of the pay
> ...


 
Your teachers union tells you that, but it is not true


----------



## JT8691 (Aug 28, 2014)

rightwinger said:


> Your teachers union tells you that, but it is not true



Pay attention I'm not in the union. I opted out. Smarten up.

Teaching isn't my first career.

I work about 10 hours a day, how long does the average American worker work for?


----------



## rightwinger (Aug 28, 2014)

JT8691 said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> > Your teachers union tells you that, but it is not true
> ...


 

I live right next to a school. In over 30 years as a professional, I have seen teachers cars show up an hour after I report to work and are gone an hour before I get home
They work a total of 180 days a year. I work 250

Don't sell the bull about how much harder teachers work

You work about 2/3 the hours of everyone else. I don't begrudge you, but thats the way it is


----------



## WorldWatcher (Aug 28, 2014)

JT8691 said:


> Tell you what I won't post it publicly but I'll pm it to you if you admit I'm not full of shit. Deal?




Absolutely.

My intent is to visit your State Education codes and look at how they mandate teacher contracts for public schools teachers and then visit your schools website and examine pay/salary scales and current vacancies for teachers.  If the law says that Teachers are example employees under the Federal Fair Labor Standards Act and are paid on an annual basis, your pay scales are setup on an hourly rate and not an annual salary, and that job postings for your school division indicate compensation rates in terms of hours worked instead of the contract period (annual salary).

I will be glad to come back and confirm you aren't full of shit.

BTW - I work in the Human Resources Office of a school district and I'm responsible for teacher contract generation so I'm pretty familiar with the process.


>>>>


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## WorldWatcher (Aug 28, 2014)

JT8691 said:


> By "work" more than 40 hours I mean mostly planning and grading. I work 8 hours a day. I have 6 classes, lunch, and a planning period. Planning period is only 50 mins long.
> 
> Now i currently have a little over 150 students. I make every student write everyday (I teach English). At least two  paragraphs...many times they need to write more (it really depends on the day and what the lesson is).
> 
> ...




None of that makes you an "hourly" employee and I never said you didn't work more that 40-hours per week.  I'm quite familiar with the duties and responsibilities of teachers and how they fit into the typical work week.



>>>>


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## Samson (Aug 28, 2014)

WorldWatcher said:


> JT8691 said:
> 
> 
> > BUT I work A LOT more than 40 hours a week (which is all I'm paid for). Just saying.
> ...



This does seem a bit weird.

This article may give us a clue, lacking more specific information:

Hourly Wages for Teachers Chron.com

_In some areas, teacher's unions enter into collective bargaining agreements with school districts. Union members are assured of receiving either a minimum annual salary or a minimum hourly rate. *Members of the Boston Teacher's Union receive an hourly minimum wage of $41.03.* *However, the bargaining agreement does not cover overtime wages, which are negotiated separately.* The highest paid teachers are found in New York State, where unions are active. Wages in New York are based on annual pay rather than hourly rates. Average annual secondary school teacher's salaries in New York amount to $75,300._​


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## bodecea (Aug 28, 2014)

pismoe said:


> morning Unkatore , hows it goin .   Yeah , voluntary work is work that is done voluntarily and volunteer work should be done with no expectation of payment .    Simple solution is for teachers to quit beating the drum [tootin their horn]  about volunteer work and quit doing volunteer work !!   [simple solution]


I believe that one of the first things teachers do if they are negotiating a new contract and the district is balking....is to "work to the contract".   You'd be amazed what does not get done when teachers no longer volunteer above and beyond what their contracts say.....school districts have been known to grind to a halt.


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## WorldWatcher (Aug 28, 2014)

Samson said:


> WorldWatcher said:
> 
> 
> > JT8691 said:
> ...




So I went and looked at Boston's pay scales which they quote as an annual salary.  (Teaching Positions Salary

Stating that you are paid $49,000 per year or saying we'll pay you X$ for Y-hours that you are scheduled but will not be paying overtime is a difference - well - without a difference.

At the end of the day Teachers fall under the Professional exemption of the FLSA and employers need not pay actual hour worked because they are in the "Exempt" category.



>>>>


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## Samson (Aug 28, 2014)

WorldWatcher said:


> So I went and looked at Boston's pay scales which they quote as an annual salary.  (Teaching Positions Salary
> 
> Stating that you are paid $49,000 per year or saying we'll pay you X$ for Y$ that you are scheduled but will not be paying overtime is a difference - well - without a difference.
> 
> At the end of the day Teachers fall under the Professional exemption of the FLSA and employers need not pay actual hour worked because they are in the "Exempt" category.



Yes the simple statement that either you are Exempt, or not, seems to be purposefully blurred in favor of calculating an Exempt Wage using a Maximum number of hours allowed by the imagination.


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## JT8691 (Aug 28, 2014)

rightwinger said:


> I live right next to a school. In over 30 years as a professional, I have seen teachers cars show up an hour after I report to work and are gone an hour before I get home
> They work a total of 180 days a year. I work 250
> 
> Don't sell the bull about how much harder teachers work
> ...





WorldWatcher said:


> None of that makes you an "hourly" employee and I never said you didn't work more that 40-hours per week.  I'm quite familiar with the duties and responsibilities of teachers and how they fit into the typical work week.
> 
> 
> 
> >>>>



*-I work 199 work days a year-NOT 180.

-Your claims contradict each other. You state I work 66% of the average person (2/3), but the numbers YOU cited add up to 72%. Which one is it?

-199 / 250 = 79.6%. So I work roughly 4/5 the amount of days you do....BIG difference from 2/3.*

-I'm guessing you didn't pay close enough attention to your math teachers. 

-That doesn't include necessary training that I'm required to take AND pay for outside of school hours.

-Have you ever paid for any required training at your job? I just $2.5K at mine last week.

-Also I usually work about 4 hours over the weekend, do you?

-I'm not suggesting that I work too much. I'm suggesting that you don't know wtf you're talking about when you cite "2/3".


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## WorldWatcher (Aug 28, 2014)

JT8691 said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> > I live right next to a school. In over 30 years as a professional, I have seen teachers cars show up an hour after I report to work and are gone an hour before I get home
> ...




1.  You quoted me also - I never claimed you work 180 days.  The contracts I write are for 200 workdays.  180 Instructional (students in school) and the remainder being "in-service days" (students not in school), and Professional Development days.

2.  I can't speak for other states, but in Virginia the only "required" training that an individual might have to pay for outside of normal school division PD events is completion of 1 bachelor level class in each 5-year license cycle (this requirement can be waived once in a career).  If you hold a license based on a Master's degree or higher this requirement does not apply.

3.  There are many professions that require continuing education to maintain licensure status: doctors, lawyers, nurses, speech pathologist, occupational therapists, etc.  Here is a sub-list from Virginia:


Architects 
Asbestos 
Auctioneers 
Backflow Prevention Device Workers (Tradesmen) 
Barbers 
Body Piercers 
Cemetery Salespersons 
Contractors 
Cosmetologists 
Electricians (Tradesmen) 
Elevator Mechanics (Tradesmen) 
Estheticians 
Fair Housing 
Gas Fitters (Tradesmen) 
Geologists 
Hearing Aid Specialists 
Home Inspectors 
HVAC (Tradesmen) 
Interior Designers 
Landscape Architects
Land Surveyors & Photogrammetrists 
Lead Abatement 
Nail Technicians 
Onsite Sewage System Professionals 
Opticians 
Plumbers (Tradesmen) 
Polygraph Examiners 
Professional Engineers 
Real Estate Appraisers 
Real Estate Salespeople & Brokers 
Residential Building Energy Analysts (individuals) 
Residential Building Energy Analyst Firms 
Soil Scientists 
Tattooists 
Waste Management Facility Operators 
Wastewater Works Operators 
Water Well System Providers (Tradesmen) 
Waterworks Operators 
Wax Technicians 
Wetland Delineators
DPOR Online Renewal Services

>>>>


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## JT8691 (Aug 28, 2014)

WorldWatcher said:


> 1.  You quoted me also - I never claimed you work 180 days.  The contracts I write are for 200 workdays.  180 Instructional (students in school) and the remainder being "in-service days" (students not in school), and Professional Development days.
> 
> 2.  I can't speak for other states, but in Virginia the only "required" training that an individual might have to pay for outside of normal school division PD events is completion of 1 bachelor level class in each 5-year license cycle (this requirement can be waived once in a career).  If you hold a license based on a Master's degree or higher this requirement does not apply.
> 
> ...



I apologize as I didn't mean to quote you. I'm not used to the new (I haven't been on USMB in a while) quoting system yet.

My post wasn't geared at you at all.

But as for my paid training I have to pay $2.5K because I'm not an education major--even though I do have the option of taking the classes at a college instead-but that's more expensive and more of a pain.

I've passed all of the required tests to get my license (which I DO have). I get my classes from the district. They make us (non-ed majors) take 6 classes either after school hours, on saturdays, or over the summers. They range from 40-80 hours each. Not including another 5-10 hours of work (depending on the class) that we have to do after we've completed the class. You typically have 3 years (in my case 2) years to complete it.


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## rightwinger (Aug 28, 2014)

JT8691 said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> > I live right next to a school. In over 30 years as a professional, I have seen teachers cars show up an hour after I report to work and are gone an hour before I get home
> ...


6 hours a day times 180 days is 1080 a year, barely half of what other professionals work. I gave you credit for homework to get to two thirds of another worker

Yes other workers have to pay for their own training and accomplish it on their own time


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## JT8691 (Aug 28, 2014)

rightwinger said:


> 6 hours a day times 180 days is 1080 a year, barely half of what other professionals work. I gave you credit for homework to get to two thirds of another worker



You're really bad at math aren't you?

I work 199 days...NOT the 180 you cited--that's school days Not the amount of days that teachers work).

I teach 6 hours a day.

I have a 1 hour planning period where I DO work the ENTIRE time. I have a MINIMUM of 300 paragraphs to read, revise and grade *a day. *(needless to say 1 hour isn't enough time to get that done). I usually need another hour to get it done.

I need to plan 2 lessons for every school day. I teach 9th and 10th grade, therefore I need to plan 2 lessons a day. Lessons usually take me about a 1/2 hour to plan EACH lesson. That's an additional 1 hour a day.

I'm required to take classes for my certification, it typically takes up roughly 9 hours a week of my time (that not only do I not get paid for, but that I pay for).

So let's break this down by day shall we?

7 hours (6 classes+planning period)+ an additional 1-2 hours of grading (as an English teacher it obviously takes me a long time to accurately grade papers).

I work around 8.5 hours each school day (not including my hour lunch--which I don't work during).

I work 8 hours EVERY saturday because my district makes me take classes for my certification due to my major. Work from these classes is roughly another 1 hour to complete AFTER class.

I like to plan lessons on Sundays for a couple of weeks into the future. This takes me roughly 5 hours to complete. EVERY Sunday.

So let's add those hours up shall we?

8.5 X 5 (hours of class/grading/revising on a school day) = 42.5 hours a week

8 hours of Saturday class + 1 hour of work from class = 9 hours + 42.5 = 51.5 hours a week

5 hours of planning on Sunday + 51.5 = 56.5 hours.

*I work roughly 56.5 hours EVERY week. *Give or take 2 hours.

56.5/5 = 11.3 hours I work per each work day during a week.

11.3 X 180 (school days) = 2070 hours during the school year

There's an additional 19 professional days that I HAVE to work and work lasts 8 hours

19 X 8 + 2070 = 2222 hours per school year

This past summer I had 2 weeks of a class that I have to take for that program (that same program that requires me to work Saturdays).

2 X 40 = 80 hours + 10 hours (of assigned work) = 90 hours

2222 + 90 = 2312

*Over the span of one full year I will worked roughly 2312 hours.
*
If you work 8 hours a day for every one of the 250 days that YOU cited:

8 X 250 = 2000 hours

*You would actually work roughly 312 LESS hours than I do (assuming you take NO lunch break).*

Granted after another 2 years I wont have to take those Saturday classes that I mentioned, so after 2 years I'll only have to work about:

1800 hours. Which is 90% of 2000.

Any questions?


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## rightwinger (Aug 28, 2014)

JT8691 said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> > 6 hours a day times 180 days is 1080 a year, barely half of what other professionals work. I gave you credit for homework to get to two thirds of another worker
> ...


Yes, we all admire what a workhorse you are

Do kindergarten teachers have 4 hours of papers to grade each day?  How bout phys ed teachers, art teachers, school nurses, 

I have seen the assignments I had in school. Lot of multiple choice, fill in the blank stuff. My kids got a lot of assignments on a computer. Looked auto graded
I have neighbors who are teachers at various levels. I do not see them burning the midnight oil or working summers


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## JT8691 (Aug 28, 2014)

rightwinger said:


> Yes, we all admire what a workhorse you are
> 
> Do kindergarten teachers have 4 hours of papers to grade each day?  How bout phys ed teachers, art teachers, school nurses,
> 
> ...



I cannot speak for all teachers. But don't make the mistake of boxing all of us into the same box. For example those teachers who barely get to school on time and leave right after the bell DO exist and they give the rest of us a bad name.

I can speak for English teachers though. There's no way to auto grade an essay. No way to auto grade writing. I give very limited fill in the blank stuff (as those are level 1 and 2 questions). I work my kids and I absolutely push them. I have very high expectations. "I can't do that" isn't an acceptable answer in my classroom.

But as I said don't box us all in. I'm a relatively young teacher and my test results/evaluations/improvement scores among students are great.

I work my finger to the bone and don't whine or complain. I'm not in a union. I gladly make less money than I could elsewhere. I've sacrificed that income for my family. And you know why I do it? For my students. When I look in the mirror I know that I did my very best to help the lives of my students. I sleep like a baby at night.

So if you want to go ahead and belittle teachers-be my guest. But you might want some perspective first.

There ARE some great teachers out there. And it may sound egotistical, but I like to think that I am one.


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## rightwinger (Aug 28, 2014)

JT8691 said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> > Yes, we all admire what a workhorse you are
> ...


If you read this thread, you will see I posted how much I admire teachers and how much of an impact they have had on my life

I just don't believe they work the hours other professionals do and are paid     accordingly


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## Politico (Aug 29, 2014)

Papageorgio said:


> So a person going to college sees that their chosen profession pays X. They graduate from college and get a job in their chosen profession and get paid X, but since they graduated now want Y, not seeing why they deserve Y, when they were told they'd get X and still pursued their careers.



That is pretty much how Generation Whine works.


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## Rikurzhen (Aug 29, 2014)

Some teacher related comedy from MAD-TV.


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## M.D. Rawlings (Sep 2, 2014)

pismoe said:


> if teachers don't like the pay then why do they go to school to get jobs as teachers Unkatare ??   Teachers are s'posed to be smart but getting a [supposedly] low paying job as a teacher doesn't sound very smart to me . Maybe teachers oughta get jobs where they like the pay scale !!



In my experience, many public education teachers are as stupid as dirt:  the stupid leading the ignorant.


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## M.D. Rawlings (Sep 2, 2014)

JT8691 said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> > Yes, we all admire what a workhorse you are
> ...



Certainly there are good teachers in the public education system, even great ones, but I don't care. It’s not about the teachers; it’s about the kids.

The public education system is an unmitigated disaster, and it's not going to get better anytime soon. The problem is not a lack of funding, or poorly paid teachers and administrators. The problem is an entrenched political agenda that is bent on destroy the minds and hearts of American youth.  The only solution that would ever turn things around is universal school choice, i.e., competition.


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