# Gubernatorial Decrees and the Fifth Amendment



## DGS49 (Mar 17, 2020)

Governor Wolf of Pennsylvania has decreed that all non-essential businesses within the State must close pending his approval to re-open.  And he listed many examples of non-essentials like restaurants, bars, gyms, bowling alleys, etc.

The Fifth Amendment of the U.S. Constitution (imposed on the States by the 14th), states that "*No person shall...be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law*..."

If I am, for example, the owner of a golf course, this decree deprives me of the right to earn a living, essentially making my PROPERTY, i.e., the golf course, worthless during the pendency of the decree.  This is analogous to a new zoning law that makes undeveloped property un-buildable, which has been held to be a "property" right under the Fifth Amendment.  As for my golf course, it is worse than worthless, in fact, because it still requires costly maintenance regardless of whether any paying customers are using it.

"Due process," is a rather elusive term, but it manifestly requires that before the State may take my "property," I must have a hearing before some judicial or quasi-judicial official, and have an opportunity to plead my case under the law.

Is the Governor's decree unconstitutional?


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## rightwinger (Mar 17, 2020)

National Emergency

All bets are off

My state just closed the schools, restaurants, bars, movies, gyms


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## Mac-7 (Mar 17, 2020)

rightwinger said:


> National Emergency
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> All bets are off
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> My state just closed the schools, restaurants, bars, movies, gyms


Can we count on government employees to not get paid while the private sector is closed?


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## rightwinger (Mar 17, 2020)

Mac-7 said:


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Who do you think is leading the charge against Coronavirus?

Those worthless government employees


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## Mac-7 (Mar 17, 2020)

rightwinger said:


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Only a few government workers are fighting the commie virus

teachers for instance

but if government is going to deny private citizens the right to work it should share the pain by denying itself also


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## miketx (Mar 17, 2020)

DGS49 said:


> Governor Wolf of Pennsylvania has decreed that all non-essential businesses within the State must close pending his approval to re-open.  And he listed many examples of non-essentials like restaurants, bars, gyms, bowling alleys, etc.
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> The Fifth Amendment of the U.S. Constitution (imposed on the States by the 14th), states that "*No person shall...be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law*..."
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The pole smoker democrat has also shut down all the roadside rest areas making it hard on truck drivers. Trucking is what runs keeps this country going.


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## EvilCat Breath (Mar 17, 2020)

Mayor Garcetti closed gyms, restaurants, bars.  Everything.  I give it a few days before there is a protest of thousands at city hall defeating the whole purpose of quarantine.


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## rightwinger (Mar 17, 2020)

Mac-7 said:


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Show a public health threat and I am sure they will shut it down


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## Mac-7 (Mar 17, 2020)

rightwinger said:


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The public school teachers are not teaching

and they should not be paid


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## MindWars (Mar 17, 2020)

These will be ur loser who FORCE vaccinate lol and this chit wasn't even tested on animals first either.


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## rightwinger (Mar 17, 2020)

Mac-7 said:


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Many are doing remote learning

That is what our school is doing.


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## MindWars (Mar 17, 2020)

You are  being trained to get LOCKED DOWN fools!! and using a crisis allows these loons to " delete the constitution temp". This is why they can do what they want since Obama and Bush as Trump tried to undo your msm told the rejects the lies and it spiraled here we are today leftist rejects.

You have ppl who call the police for toilet paper
you have ppl who think there are more than two genders

and yach can't figure out why they want nto wipe that constitution noff the map.

they love your kids too.


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## TNHarley (Mar 17, 2020)

rightwinger said:


> National Emergency
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> All bets are off
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> My state just closed the schools, restaurants, bars, movies, gyms


Can you point to that power in the constitution?


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## DGS49 (Mar 17, 2020)

Public school teachers that I know are scrambling to post lessons on line, prepare on-line quizzes, and working with individual students to keep the coursework moving.  Not sitting around watching soap operas and eating bon bons.


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## rightwinger (Mar 17, 2020)

TNHarley said:


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At the State level?
That is where they are being closed


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## TNHarley (Mar 17, 2020)

rightwinger said:


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Sigh
There is no emergency powers in the constitution.
States right do not Trump the amendments of the constitution.
Of course, you do not care about any of that. Do you


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## rightwinger (Mar 17, 2020)

TNHarley said:


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Helping in an emergency is for the General Welfare of We the People. 
Well within the broad powers of Congress


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## TNHarley (Mar 17, 2020)

rightwinger said:


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Lol it doesnt surprise me you dont know what that means.


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## DGS49 (Mar 17, 2020)

Quoting the "general welfare" provisions of the Constitution in order to justify acts of Congress (or the President) is an indication of Constitutional ignorance - no offense.  Congress' powers are specifically enumerated, and the "general welfare" wording does not expand on those powers, which are constrained specifically by the Tenth Amendment.  This argument was had and settled a couple centuries ago.


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## rightwinger (Mar 17, 2020)

TNHarley said:


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Of course I know what it means
It means......for the good of the country

What did you think it means?


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## rightwinger (Mar 17, 2020)

DGS49 said:


> Quoting the "general welfare" provisions of the Constitution in order to justify acts of Congress (or the President) is an indication of Constitutional ignorance - no offense.  Congress' powers are specifically enumerated, and the "general welfare" wording does not expand on those powers, which are constrained specifically by the Tenth Amendment.  This argument was had and settled a couple centuries ago.


Sorry, but the courts have never agreed with your strict interpretation of enumerated powers or the tenth amendment.


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## miketx (Mar 17, 2020)

rightwinger said:


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> > Quoting the "general welfare" provisions of the Constitution in order to justify acts of Congress (or the President) is an indication of Constitutional ignorance - no offense.  Congress' powers are specifically enumerated, and the "general welfare" wording does not expand on those powers, which are constrained specifically by the Tenth Amendment.  This argument was had and settled a couple centuries ago.
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That's because the courts are bought and sold.


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## rightwinger (Mar 17, 2020)

miketx said:


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Our courts are conservative


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## TNHarley (Mar 17, 2020)

rightwinger said:


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It means taxes collected must be used to support the common good of the united states as a WHOLE. It also must be done within the scope of the enumerated powers as well. 
All you dipshits that think it means unlimited powers are lazy morons. If it was unlimited powers, what was the purpose of the constitution, and specifically, the enumerated powers? 
Alexander Hamilton. Federalist papers : _This specification of particulars [the 18 enumerated powers of Article I, Section 8] evidently excludes all pretension to a general legislative authority, because an affirmative grant of special powers would be absurd as well as useless if a general authority was intended_
Intent is well documented. Try studying it.


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## rightwinger (Mar 17, 2020)

TNHarley said:


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Absolutely

The United States as a whole benefits from the General Welfare clause.

It doesn’t mean each person benefits the same, but the nation as a whole benefit.

Article 1, Section 1, Congress does what is in the best interests of We the People. If not, they get voted out. Been working for over 240 years.


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## jillian (Mar 17, 2020)

DGS49 said:


> Governor Wolf of Pennsylvania has decreed that all non-essential businesses within the State must close pending his approval to re-open.  And he listed many examples of non-essentials like restaurants, bars, gyms, bowling alleys, etc.
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> The Fifth Amendment of the U.S. Constitution (imposed on the States by the 14th), states that "*No person shall...be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law*..."
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The 5th amendment only applies to criminal matters, not civil

you should refer to the takings clause  and in this case it isn’t a taking. It is a health emergency. 
Thanks for the pretend legal analysis


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## miketx (Mar 18, 2020)

jillian said:


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I see, so unless I'm a criminal I have no 5th amendment rights.


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## TNHarley (Mar 18, 2020)

rightwinger said:


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Sigh
Learn to read and stop spreading lies.
Are you russian?


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## rightwinger (Mar 18, 2020)

TNHarley said:


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Unfortunately, that is how it works. 
Congress has wide latitude and the tenth amendment doesn’t have much power.


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## Gdjjr (Mar 27, 2020)

rightwinger said:


> What did you think it means?


Promote- the general Welfare. Not dictate what a bunch of empty suits feel like doing.


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## Gdjjr (Mar 27, 2020)

Looks like a good thread to post this









						Revisiting Governmental Powers – The Future of Freedom Foundation
					

During this time of extraordinary powers being exercised by federal, state, and local officials, it’s good to refresh ourselves on founding principles. We sometimes hear about a concept called “the inherent powers of government.” These refer to what are commonly called “police powers.” Such...




					www.fff.org
				




*The enumerated powers doctrine*

_So, how did the Framers handle this problem? The document that would call the federal government into existence — the Constitution — made it clear that the federal government’s powers would be limited to those enumerated in the document itself. If a power wasn’t enumerated, then it could not be wielded or exercised. 


No inherent powers or police powers to protect the “health, safety, morals, and welfare” of the people. No powers except those that were enumerated in the Constitution.


Thus, when one is determining whether the federal government is legally permitted to wield and exercise such powers as engaging in state-sponsored assassinations, coups, torture, foreign aid, foreign interventions, travel restrictions, sanctions, embargoes, lockdowns, and mandatory curfews, all that one has to do is ascertain whether such powers are among the powers delegated to the federal government in the Constitution._


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## Gdjjr (Mar 27, 2020)

*State constitutions and the Fourteenth Amendment*
There is, however, something else to consider. The states had their own constitutions, which oftentimes placed restrictions on the powers of the state governments. Thus, a state constitution could have a restriction that would be similar to the First Amendment but that would apply to the state itself. In that case, if the state enacted a compulsory church attendance law, a person could sue in state court to have the law declared unconstitutional under the state constitution.
There is something else to consider: The Fourteenth Amendment. Enacted in 1868, among other things it prohibited the states from depriving any person of life, liberty, and property without due process of law and from abridging the privileges and immunities of citizenship. 
The Fourteenth Amendment serves as a severe restriction on the powers of states and localities. Over time, the U.S. Supreme Court held that the Fourteenth Amendment implicitly incorporated the rights enumerated within the Bill of Rights (which applied only to the federal government) and applied them to the states.
If a state enacted a law that deprived a person of his liberty without due process, the person could now sue in federal court and seek to have the law declared unconstitutional under the U.S. Constitution. In the same suit, he could also claim the law violated the state constitution as well.
Thus, in determining the legality of laws and actions of state and local governments, such as lockdowns, curfews, travel restrictions, business closures, mandatory vaccinations, and others, the presumption begins with the notion that such actions fall within the traditional European-like police powers of the state to regulate the “health, safety, morals, and welfare” of the citizenry.
But that’s not where the inquiry ends. It must then be determined whether the action or law violates the state constitution. If it does, then the action or law must be declared unconstitutional under the state constitution.
It must also be determined whether the action or law of the state or locality constitutes a deprivation of life, liberty, or property without due process of law and an abridgment of the privileges and immunities of citizenship. If it does, then it is illegal or invalid under our form of government. 
My own belief is that the police powers of the states and localities should be limited to targeting, prosecuting, and punishing people who commit crimes of violence or fraud against others. The old European police-power doctrine relating to “health, morals, and welfare” have no place in a genuinely free society.


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## Admiral Rockwell Tory (Mar 27, 2020)

Mac-7 said:


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My grandson's and granddaughter's teachers are teaching on the internet.  Why are you lying like a libtard?


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## Mac-7 (Mar 27, 2020)

Admiral Rockwell Tory said:


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Yeah, ok

but there is no need to call me a liar


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## Admiral Rockwell Tory (Mar 27, 2020)

Mac-7 said:


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If you have a pulse, you should have known it was a lie.


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## Mac-7 (Mar 28, 2020)

Admiral Rockwell Tory said:


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Whatever


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## Admiral Rockwell Tory (Mar 28, 2020)

Mac-7 said:


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Ah, the mating call of the great American dumbass!


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## Mac-7 (Mar 28, 2020)

Admiral Rockwell Tory said:


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I know you want to wallow in the mud but I have better things to do


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## Admiral Rockwell Tory (Mar 28, 2020)

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In that case, stay out of threads you know nothing about.


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## Mac-7 (Mar 28, 2020)

Admiral Rockwell Tory said:


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I know you want a pissin’ contest as if you were a child 

but that is a waste of my time

you made a good point about internet classes and I conceded your point

now grow up


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## MadChemist (Mar 30, 2020)

rightwinger said:


> National Emergency
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> All bets are off
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> My state just closed the schools, restaurants, bars, movies, gyms



And why are the bets off ?

All a president has to do is declare national emergency and our whole system of government is set aside ?

Does not seem correct to me.


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## MadChemist (Mar 30, 2020)

rightwinger said:


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Who decides when it is a threat.

What is the standard ?


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## MadChemist (Mar 30, 2020)

rightwinger said:


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That is not what General Welfare means.  

Madison was quite clear on the subject.









						James Madison Refutes Expansive Reading of the General Welfare Clause | Tenth Amendment Center
					

His speech is a stinging refutation to all those who claim the clause empowers the federal government to spend money for anything and everything




					tenthamendmentcenter.com
				




It is supposed by some gentlemen, that Congress have authority not only to grant bounties in the sense here used, merely as a commutation for drawbacks, but even to grant them under a power by virtue of which they may do anything which they may think conducive to the “general welfare.” This, sir, in my mind, raises the important and fundamental question, whether the general terms which had been cited, are to be considered as a sort of caption or general description of the specified powers, and as having no further meaning, and giving no further power, than what is found in that specification, or as an abstract and indefinite delegation of power extending to all cases whatever; to all such at least, as will admit the application of money, which is giving as much latitude as any government could well desire.

I, sir, have always conceived—I believe those who proposed the constitution conceived; it is still more fully known, and more material to observe, those who ratified the constitution conceived, that this is not an indefinite government deriving its powers from the general terms prefixed to the specified powers—but, a limited government tied down to the specified powers, which explain and define the general terms.


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## Gdjjr (Mar 31, 2020)

*The General Welfare Clause Is Not a Blank Check*



> _“The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States.”_


Here the phrase actually carries legal weight. As a result, these words create something of a dilemma. Either the founders didn’t really intend to create a general government with limited powers, or the general welfare clause doesn’t really mean Congress has the authority to fund anything and everything it deems beneficial to the nation as a whole.

The fact that the framers followed up the general welfare clause in Article I Sec. 8 with a list of specific powers indicates the latter. The enumerated powers serve as a qualification [limitation] on federal authority to collect taxes for the general welfare. If the framers of the Constitution had intended for Congress to have the power to do virtually anything and everything to promote the “general welfare” however it defined the term, they wouldn’t have bothered to include a list of specific powers. They would have just stopped at the general welfare clause.


In fact, legal rules of construction dictate that when reading a legal document, the enumeration of certain powers logically excludes all other powers not listed. This is actually a legal maxim – _Designato unius est exclusio alterius_ – meaning, “the designation of one is the exclusion of the other.”

James Madison made this very point in a letter to James Robertson dated April 20, 1831.


Notice too, if you will, the word welfare is capitalized making it a noun, which is a person, place or thing, not an action. general Welfare- to promote the, is what the preamble says- not provide welfare in general. Provide and promote are not the same thing. It's a word castigation lawyers like to use along with empty suits in the District of Criminals can play with- kinda like "authorizing military force" vs Declaring War (as they know wars of aggression are not constitutional) to abdicate their congressional authority elsewhere and allow the press to use the words "war on" the cause de jour to placate and appease idiots that either can't or refuse to read and acknowledge *words mean things* as does the use of capitals and commas.


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