# India and China: A Himalayan rivalry



## Modbert (Aug 23, 2010)

India and China: A Himalayan rivalry | The Economist



> MEMORIES of a war between India and China are still vivid in the Tawang valley, a lovely, cloud-blown place high on the south-eastern flank of the Himalayas. They are nurtured first by the Indian army, humiliated in 1962 when the Peoples Liberation Army swept into Tawang from next-door Tibet. India now has three army corpsabout 100,000 troopsin its far north-eastern state of Arunachal Pradesh, which includes Tawang.





> Since re-establishing diplomatic ties in 1976, after a post-war pause, they and their relationship have in many ways been transformed. The 1962 war was an act of Chinese aggression most obviously springing from Chinas desire for western Aksai Chin, a lofty plain linking Xinjiang to Tibet. But its deeper causes included a famine in China and economic malaise in both countries. China and India are now the worlds fastest-growing big economies, however, and in a year or two, *when India overtakes Japan on a purchasing-power-parity basis, they will be the worlds second- and third-biggest. And as they grow, Asias giants have come closer.*





> Their two-way trade is roaring: only $270m in 1990, it is expected to exceed $60 billion this year. They are also tentatively co-operating, for their mutual enrichment, in other ways: for example, by co-ordinating their bids for the African oil supplies that both rely on. Given their contrasting economic strengthsChinas in manufacturing, Indias in servicessome see an opportunity for much deeper co-operation. There is even a word for this vision, Chindia. On important international issues, notably climate-change policy and world trade, their alignment is already imposing.





> Yet China and India are in many ways rivals, not Asian brothers, and their relationship is by any standard vexedas recent quarrelling has made abundantly plain. If you then consider that they are, despite their mutual good wishes, old enemies, bad neighbours and nuclear powers, and have two of the worlds biggest armieswith almost 4m troops between themthis may seem troubling.



Solid article. Thoughts USMB?


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## ekrem (Aug 25, 2010)

I don't believe in any hostile relations for the foreseeable future. 
Hostile relations at this point would mean diverting money and ressources desperately needed in development-sphere into containment of the other. 
They would position a foot for each other to fall over, with none of them benefiting -- only the "Sick men's from West".

Both will trade and seek stability in their region so economic development is not minimized through instability.


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## britishbulldog (Oct 5, 2010)

ekrem said:


> I don't believe in any hostile relations for the foreseeable future.
> Hostile relations at this point would mean diverting money and ressources desperately needed in development-sphere into containment of the other.
> They would position a foot for each other to fall over, with none of them benefiting -- only the "Sick men's from West".
> 
> Both will trade and seek stability in their region so economic development is not minimized through instability.



We should take every opportunity to create the conditions for a war between India and China, even if that means arming both sides.

China will definitely nuke the living daylights out of India, but India should be able to inflict at least some damage upon China.

A damaged China serves our interests.


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## Colin (Oct 6, 2010)

britishbulldog said:


> ekrem said:
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> 
> > I don't believe in any hostile relations for the foreseeable future.
> ...



Seems you want to start wars throughout most of the world. You'll of course be cheering from the safety of your armchair!


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## britishbulldog (Oct 7, 2010)

We must not allow China to rise above us.

We should use India to fight China.

I don't give a dam about China's response to India. The Indians never liked us anyway.

Even if India is oblliterated, as long as China is weakened, that is all that matters.

God bless UK and USA. And screw the rest of the world!!!


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## hipeter924 (Oct 7, 2010)

Colin said:


> britishbulldog said:
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> > ekrem said:
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## britishbulldog (Oct 9, 2010)

Colin said:


> Seems you want to start wars throughout most of the world. You'll of course be cheering from the safety of your armchair!



I like my armchair.


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## editec (Oct 9, 2010)

If Indian and China are not run by nuts (and I don't think they are) I doubt that they'll allow these border disputes to turn into serious conflict.

Ultimately they might find themselves at serious odds with each other, but I doubt that the territorial disputes are important enough for those to be the issue.

Its the WORLDS resources, not merely the boarders where China and India (and everybody else, too) will ultimately find themselves at odds with their neighbors.


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## waltky (Jun 22, 2017)

India has lost nearly 2,000 square kilometers to the PLA’s encroachments...




*China is grabbing Himalayan land*
_Sun, Jun 18, 2017 - Bite by kilometer-size bite, China is eating away at India’s Himalayan borderlands. For decades, Asia’s two giants have fought a bullet-less war for territory along their high-altitude border. However, recently, China has become more assertive, underscoring the need for a new Indian containment strategy.  On average, China launches one stealth incursion into India every 24 hours._


> Indian Minister of State for Home Affairs Kiren Rijiju said the Chinese People’s Liberation Army (PLA) is actively intruding into vacant border space with the objective of occupying it.  And according to a former Indian Intelligence Bureau top official, India has lost nearly 2,000km2 to the PLA’s encroachments over the past decade.  The strategy underlying China’s actions is more remarkable than their scope. On land, like at sea, China uses civilian resources — herders, farmers and grazers — as the tip of the spear.  Once civilians settle on contested land, army troops gain control of the disputed area, paving the way for the establishment of more permanent encampments or observation posts.
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> Similarly, in the South China Sea, China’s naval forces follow fishermen to carve out space for the reclamation of rocks or reefs. In both theaters, China has deployed no missiles, drones or bullets to advance its objectives.  China’s non-violent terrestrial aggression has garnered less opposition than its blue-water ambition, which has been challenged by the US and under international law, albeit with little effect. Indian leaders have at times even seemed to condone China’s actions.  During a recent panel discussion in Russia, for example, Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi said that although China and India are at odds over borders, it was remarkable that “in the last 40 years, not a single bullet has been fired because of [it].”  The Chinese Ministry of Foreign Affairs responded by praising Modi’s “positive remarks.”
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http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/editorials/archives/2017/06/18/2003672767


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## waltky (Aug 3, 2017)

Granny says, "Dat's right - dem Chinamens gonna take over the world...




*China-India border spat casts shadow ahead of BRICS summit*
_August 2, 2017  - China is taking an increasingly tough line on a border row with India amid a rising crescendo of nationalism in state media, and President Xi Jinping looks set for an awkward encounter with Prime Minister Narendra Modi at a multilateral summit next month._


> Diplomats say Beijing would like to resolve the border issue before a summit of the BRICS nations - that also groups Brazil, Russia and South Africa - in the Chinese city of Xiamen in early September, and ensure nothing dampens what China wants to be a show of cooperation and friendship among developing countries.  But that could be tough. On Wednesday, China ramped up the rhetoric, accusing India of "concocting" excuses over the illegal entry of the South Asian nation's military into Chinese territory.  "China will take all necessary measures to safeguard its legitimate and lawful rights and interests," the Foreign Ministry said.
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> The two sides' troops are confronting each other close to a valley controlled by China that separates India from its close ally, Bhutan, and gives China access to the so-called Chicken's Neck, a thin strip of land connecting India and its remote northeastern regions.  Responding, India reiterated an earlier line that work by a Chinese road crew in the sensitive frontier area would have changed the status quo and urging "utmost restraint" by all sides.  "India considers that peace and tranquillity in the India-China border areas is an important pre-requisite for smooth development of our bilateral relations with China," New Delhi's foreign ministry said in a statement on Wednesday evening.
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See also:

* Chinese President Oversees Military Show of Strength*
_30 Jul 2017 | China's president Xi Jinping emphasized the combat readiness of the People's Liberation Army, long criticized as corrupt._


> China's military has the "confidence and capability" to bolster the country's rise into a world power, President Xi Jinping said Sunday as he oversaw a large-scale military parade meant to show off the forces at his command to foreign and domestic audiences.  Live state television broadcasts showed Xi, dressed in fatigues and speaking from an open-top jeep, telling his troops that China needed a strong military "more than ever" as it moved "closer to the goal of the great rejuvenation of the Chinese nation."  Xi, who commands the People's Liberation Army (PLA) as chairman of the Central Military Commission, has frequently spoken of his "China Dream" to restore China to a leadership position in international affairs with a modern, far-reaching military force to match.
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Related:

*China's Indian Ocean Ambitions*
_24 Jul 2017 | Joseph V. Micallef is a best-selling military history and world affairs author, and keynote speaker. Follow him on Twitter@JosephVMicallef._


> On July 11, Beijing dispatched Chinese troops from the port of Zhanjiang in Guangdong province with orders to begin "constructing the base at Djibouti." The announcement follows on a previous January 21 announcement of an agreement with Djibouti to host what the Chinese Foreign Ministry termed a "logistics and fast evacuation base."  Widely described in the western media as China's first overseas base, the facility, still in the process of being constructed, stops short of being a full-fledged military base, but is widely interpreted as the first step in a significant build-up of Chinese military power in the Indian Ocean.  Under the agreement with Djibouti, China can station up to 10,000 troops in its facility there, although the initial deployment will fall far short of that number. The new base comes on the heel of a $14 billion, Chinese financed railroad project, which links the Ethiopian capital of Addis Ababa with Djibouti, as well as an expansion of port facilities in Djibouti. The rail line represents Ethiopia's only direct transportation link to the Indian Ocean.
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> The Chinese facility is only a few miles away from the U.S. base at Camp Lemonnier. Although the U.S. maintains a range of small outposts and air facilities in Africa, Camp Lemonnier is the only fully operational American base on the African continent. The Chinese facility joins bases operated by Italy, France, Spain and Japan. In addition, Saudi Arabia has announced that it too will build a military base in Djibouti.  Djibouti sits at a strategic location on the horn of Africa overlooking the Straits of Mandeb. Roughly 10 percent of the world's petroleum traffic and 20 percent of global trade traverse those straits. The Straits of Mandeb connect the Red Sea with the Indian Ocean and along with the Suez Canal is an important maritime route linking the Mediterranean Sea with the Indian Ocean.  China's base in Djibouti is part of a broader dual strategy described by Beijing as "String of Pearls" and the "One Belt, One Road" (OBOR) that is at the heart of Beijing's aims in the Indian Ocean. The "String of Pearls" relates to China's plans to construct or expand port facilities in Pakistan, Sri Lanka, Maldives, Seychelles, Bangladesh and Myanmar.
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## anotherlife (Aug 3, 2017)

The China - Russia relationship is much more crucial.  The only way to fight Putin and the BRICS is to make China take over Siberia.  Without that, in 30 years the dollar will be a secondary currency under some BRICS basket and the Euro.


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## Unkotare (Aug 3, 2017)

anotherlife said:


> The China - Russia relationship is much more crucial.  The only way to fight Putin and the BRICS is to make China take over Siberia.  Without that, in 30 years the dollar will be a secondary currency under some BRICS basket and the Euro.







Not going to happen.


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## waltky (Sep 7, 2017)

Granny says dem Chinamens is hackin' Vietnam's computers...




*Chinese cyberspies broaden attacks in Vietnam: firm*
_Fri, Sep 01, 2017 - Cyberspies working for or on behalf of the Chinese government have broadened attacks against official and corporate targets in Vietnam at a time of raised tension over the South China Sea, cybersecurity company FireEye said._


> FireEye told reporters the attacks happened in recent weeks and it had traced them to suspected Chinese cyberspies based partly on the fact that a Chinese group it had identified previously had used the same infrastructure before.  “Where China has often focused on the [Vietnamese] government before, this shows they are really hitting the full commercial sector potentially in Vietnam and trying to gather a broad base of information there,” said Ben Read, who heads FireEye’s cyberespionage team.
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> FireEye said the attacks involved sending users documents in Vietnamese that appeared to be requests for financial information.  When the user opened them, they delivered malware that could infect a computer and send back information to the cyberspies, potentially letting them into computer networks, too.
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See also:

*Retired general sentenced to eight months for spying*
_Sat, Sep 02, 2017 - The Supreme Court yesterday upheld a ruling sentencing retired major general Hou Shih-cheng (侯石城) to eight months in prison for trying to recruit military officials to develop a spy network for China.  Hou was a commander in the Republic of China (ROC) Army, served as a section chief at the Office of the General Staff and held various posts in the army._


> Hou was promoted to major general in 1999 and became commander of the army’s Armor Training Command, based in Hsinchu County, in 2006.  After retiring in 2008, Hou started a business with the intention of expanding it into China.  In July 2010, he visited the World Expo in Shanghai, where he met a Shanghai City Government official, surnamed Tang (唐), and a subordinate of Tang, surnamed Yang (楊), an investigation found.  Tang said he was the head of the Shanghai City Government 12th Section Office and promised to help Hou’s business endeavors in China in exchange for Hou introducing him to Taiwanese military officials and developing a network, the probe found.
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> In November 2012, Hou took two colonels from the Armor Training Command on a golf trip to Malaysia, whose expenses were paid by Tang, the investigation said.  Hou was paid 25,000 yuan (US$3,806 at the current exchange rate) by the Chinese side and was instructed to give 5,000 yuan each and expensive tea sets to the two colonels, surnamed Wang (王) and Liang (梁), the probe found.  In January 2013, Hou took the two colonels to another all-expenses-paid trip to Kuala Lumpur, where they met with Tang and Yang.  Wang and Liang said they refused the gifts presented by the Chinese officials, and also returned the 5,000 yuan to Hou, thinking they could be compromised by the money and gifts.
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