# Needed: Universal privatization of schools



## Patrick2 (Jul 13, 2011)

The US spends a lot more than most countries on education, and for paltry results.  Years ago, we could "afford" an incompetent government school system, because we had no competition in the world.  That world is gone - we compete with a unified europe and increasingly india and the PRC.  We can no longer be held back by a failed system.

The current government school system is a hundred years old and way obsolete.  The liberals have turned US schools into madrassas-lite with political indoctrination.  They are bloated with administrators.  They retain incompetent older teachers because of the seniority system.  They are way overpaid.  They've failed at their job.

A universal privatized system would bring the efficiencies of the market to a sector that badly needs it.  The fossilized administrative structure would be a thing of the past.  Teachers would have to make good or hit the bricks.  Excellent teachers might earn far more than they do now.  Schools would become accountable to their customers - parents.  Students would no longer be guinea pigs for pedagogical gimmicks like "whole language".

Non-poor parents should pay their own education bills - there's no reason at all why working people should have to subsidize middle class parents in this area with their taxes.


----------



## Oddball (Jul 13, 2011)

Absotively.

http://www.schoolandstate.org/home.htm


----------



## JakeStarkey (Jul 13, 2011)

. . . over education.  Nope, never going to happen.  Though possibly we can make private education illegal to make sure Righty Extremist Facists and Supposed Christians won't be able to indoctrinate our children.


----------



## Ravi (Jul 13, 2011)

Yeah....school is mandatory so make it mandatory to give our money to private corporations.

Fascists.


----------



## Oddball (Jul 13, 2011)

You could always make it not mandatory, the same way it's not mandatory for you to go shop at Wal-Mart.


----------



## Ravi (Jul 13, 2011)

I don't shop at Walmart. It's filled with fascist/commies like you.


----------



## Patrick2 (Jul 13, 2011)

Ravi said:


> Yeah....school is mandatory so make it mandatory to give our money to private corporations.
> 
> Fascists.



Yeah - a lot worse than giving it to arrogant government bureaucrats and incompetent time-serving drones posing as teachers.


----------



## Oddball (Jul 13, 2011)

Ravi said:


> I don't shop at Walmart. It's filled with fascist/commies like you.


See what I mean?

Don't like being bossed around when it means doing something or supporting things you don't want to, do ya?


----------



## Patrick2 (Jul 13, 2011)

JakeStarkey said:


> . . . over education.  Nope, never going to happen.  Though possibly we can make private education illegal to make sure Righty Extremist Facists and Supposed Christians won't be able to indoctrinate our children.



Leftwingers can just never get their heads around the idea of profit.  The idea that there is a contradiction between profit and education is plain stupid.  It is PRECISELY profit which motivates companies to do a good job - they are fired by parents and make no profits if they don't.  And look at our current profitless system - THAT'S worked real well, right?  Right.


----------



## CitizenPained (Jul 13, 2011)

Other countries have amazing universities and secondary schools and are completely or mostly funded. I think it has more to do with our heavy admin costs than anything.

Also, we don't have universal curriculum. The money spent on curriculum development by each school district is bonkers.


----------



## jillian (Jul 13, 2011)

Patrick2 said:


> The US spends a lot more than most countries on education, and for paltry results.  Years ago, we could "afford" an incompetent government school system, because we had no competition in the world.  That world is gone - we compete with a unified europe and increasingly india and the PRC.  We can no longer be held back by a failed system.
> 
> The current government school system is a hundred years old and way obsolete.  The liberals have turned US schools into madrassas-lite with political indoctrination.  They are bloated with administrators.  They retain incompetent older teachers because of the seniority system.  They are way overpaid.  They've failed at their job.
> 
> ...



why? so only rich people can go to school??

schools are not businesses and shouldn't be run as businesses.


----------



## CitizenPained (Jul 13, 2011)

How many of us had parents that could afford the $15-30k/year tuition bills?


----------



## JakeStarkey (Jul 13, 2011)

Patrick2 said:


> JakeStarkey said:
> 
> 
> > . . . over education.  Nope, never going to happen.  Though possibly we can make private education illegal to make sure Righty Extremist Facists and Supposed Christians won't be able to indoctrinate our children.
> ...



You are not a conservative at all, just a mindless fascistabot.  Privatization, in competition wiht public education, has to meet parental expectation as well a profit needs. The comparisons, better ones, are the children in foster care, the elderly in private nursing homes, the mentally ill forced into private outpatient care, and the horror camps of our prisons.

You don't give a damn about the client or competition, you just want the $$$ and screw the product.


----------



## Tank (Jul 13, 2011)

CitizenPained said:


> Other countries have amazing universities and secondary schools and are completely or mostly funded.


What other countries?


----------



## JakeStarkey (Jul 13, 2011)

Try Finland, Tank.


----------



## Patrick2 (Jul 13, 2011)

jillian said:


> Patrick2 said:
> 
> 
> > The US spends a lot more than most countries on education, and for paltry results.  Years ago, we could "afford" an incompetent government school system, because we had no competition in the world.  That world is gone - we compete with a unified europe and increasingly india and the PRC.  We can no longer be held back by a failed system.
> ...



Nooooooooooo......... read more carefully, please.  Middle class and rich people could and would pay their own bills.  Poor people can get vouchers from the government.  That schools are not run as businesses is EXACTLY what has caused the failure of K12 education in this country.  They SHOULD be run as businesses - that would get all the crap out of the system: the incompetence, the politicization, the bloated administrations.


----------



## Patrick2 (Jul 13, 2011)

JakeStarkey said:


> Patrick2 said:
> 
> 
> > JakeStarkey said:
> ...


----------



## Oddball (Jul 13, 2011)

JakeStarkey said:


> Try Finland, Tank.


What's the population base in Finland, Mr. Fake?


----------



## Oddball (Jul 13, 2011)

jillian said:


> Patrick2 said:
> 
> 
> > The US spends a lot more than most countries on education, and for paltry results.  Years ago, we could "afford" an incompetent government school system, because we had no competition in the world.  That world is gone - we compete with a unified europe and increasingly india and the PRC.  We can no longer be held back by a failed system.
> ...


No more or less than only rich people feed, house and clothe their children.

Doesn't playing the class envy card ever get old?


jillian said:


> schools are not businesses and shouldn't be run as businesses.


They aren't and that's why the shitty ones never go out of business.

A situation that would be remedied under a fee-for-service model.

Moreover, the parents would have some *ahem* skin in the game, insofar as seeing to it that they got educational value for their dollar.


----------



## Patrick2 (Jul 13, 2011)

Oddball said:


> Moreover, the parents would have some *ahem* skin in the game, insofar as seeing to it that they got educational value for their dollar.



That's a key point.  When parents have to PAY, even the ones now who appear not to care about the systemic reasons for their children's poor education will probably sit up and pay attention.


----------



## CitizenPained (Jul 13, 2011)

Israel, Switzerland, Finland, France, Germany, Japan, Canada seem to be doing well.


----------



## CitizenPained (Jul 13, 2011)

Patrick2 said:


> jillian said:
> 
> 
> > Patrick2 said:
> ...




I would support this if our current charters were working.


----------



## Patrick2 (Jul 13, 2011)

CitizenPained said:


> Israel, Switzerland, Finland, France, Germany, Japan, Canada seem to be doing well.



Good for them - it's failed here.


----------



## CitizenPained (Jul 13, 2011)

There are good school models that would work all across the country, but since we have as system where education is local politics, it'll never be implemented.


----------



## uscitizen (Jul 13, 2011)

Ravi said:


> Yeah....school is mandatory so make it mandatory to give our money to private corporations.
> 
> Fascists.



Well when the market is saturated corporations go after tax dollars.
Has been a growing trend since Reagan.


----------



## Big Fitz (Jul 13, 2011)

Anyone else noticing the attempt of the sociofascists accusing those who wish to shut down their indoctrination academies of being the commies and fascists?

Hmmmmmm....

And they make it sound like being a communist or fascist is a bad thing.  Strange that they would do that.  Perhaps there is an inherent knowledge of how evil the systems of government they support are?

Nawwwwwww.....  Couldn't be.


----------



## Patrick2 (Jul 13, 2011)

CitizenPained said:


> There are good school models that would work all across the country, but since we have as system where education is local politics, it'll never be implemented.



That's a government-centric viewpoint.  The government school system got started in this country via a national movement.  A similar popular movement is needed to unwind it - hopefully before the country collapses due to inferior schools.

Further, a privatized system need only be implemented at the state level.


----------



## Big Fitz (Jul 13, 2011)

Patrick2 said:


> CitizenPained said:
> 
> 
> > There are good school models that would work all across the country, but since we have as system where education is local politics, it'll never be implemented.
> ...


better still... the local level.


----------



## uscitizen (Jul 13, 2011)

sub standard schools are a symptom not the cause.


----------



## Big Fitz (Jul 13, 2011)

uscitizen said:


> sub standard schools are a symptom not the cause.


what do you consider them a symptom of?


----------



## CitizenPained (Jul 13, 2011)

Patrick2 said:


> CitizenPained said:
> 
> 
> > There are good school models that would work all across the country, but since we have as system where education is local politics, it'll never be implemented.
> ...



I'm stating the truth. The public school system started in Massachusetts, but anyway.


----------



## Patrick2 (Jul 13, 2011)

Big Fitz said:


> Patrick2 said:
> 
> 
> > CitizenPained said:
> ...



i don't think so.  In order to achieve the full effects of such as economies of scale, large corporations need to do the work.  McDonalds wouldn't be what it is if it could only operate in one city.  The federal government can't order states to privatize, but it can cut off funding.  The federal department of education needs to be dissolved.


----------



## Patrick2 (Jul 13, 2011)

CitizenPained said:


> Patrick2 said:
> 
> 
> > CitizenPained said:
> ...



The federal government keeps the local K12 systems alive, it can cut off funding.  States that want to keep the failed systems and pay for them themselves can - I'm guessing they'll be a small minority of states - and probably in places like massachutts.


----------



## uscitizen (Jul 13, 2011)

Yep cut off federal education funding and watch your property taxes raise.


----------



## Big Fitz (Jul 13, 2011)

uscitizen said:


> Yep cut off federal education funding and watch your property taxes raise.


More likely in a privatized system, you would have a large drop in property taxes and you'd find the school you can afford to send your kids to.  Very likely a wash.  Good schools would have no problem getting paying students.  Bad schools would have to up their quality or go out of business.  Competition is a healthy thing.


----------



## Tank (Jul 13, 2011)

CitizenPained said:


> Israel, Switzerland, Finland, France, Germany, Japan, Canada seem to be doing well.


Give those countries Americas Black and Hispanic populations and there school systems will collapse too.

Not to mention how many more prisons, courthouses and welfare offices they will need.


----------



## uscitizen (Jul 13, 2011)

Tank said:


> CitizenPained said:
> 
> 
> > Israel, Switzerland, Finland, France, Germany, Japan, Canada seem to be doing well.
> ...





Just send out Tea Partyiers over there.  Please.


----------



## rdean (Jul 13, 2011)

Why do right wingers care so much about school?  So many of them dropped out.  So many of their kids drop out.  They bad mouth education constantly.  And they want to ruin it with mysticism and rewritten history.


----------



## Big Fitz (Jul 13, 2011)

rdean said:


> Why do right wingers care so much about school?  So many of them dropped out.  So many of their kids drop out.  They bad mouth education constantly.  And they want to ruin it with mysticism and rewritten history.


Hairnet, you're hairnet's on too tight again.


----------



## Tank (Jul 13, 2011)




----------



## Patrick2 (Jul 13, 2011)

uscitizen said:


> Yep cut off federal education funding and watch your property taxes raise.



My property taxes go up, and my federal taxes go down corrspondingly?  Hmmm ... seems like a wash.   Also, my proposal in the OP includes that all but poor parents pay their own education bills.


----------



## Patrick2 (Jul 13, 2011)

rdean said:


> Why do right wingers care so much about school?  So many of them dropped out.  So many of their kids drop out.



I hold three degrees.



> They bad mouth education constantly.



No, we badmouth failed *>>GOVERNMENT SCHOOL<<* "education" constantly.



> And they want to ruin it with mysticism and rewritten history.



  Can someone decipher that for me?


----------



## uscitizen (Jul 13, 2011)

Ahh those smart Asians!


----------



## JakeStarkey (Jul 13, 2011)

Patrick, you are lying and you know it, unless your three degrees are primary, elementary, and middle school.  The wack far right has never been allowed to rewrite and revise history without being exposed for their out right perversions and lies.

The Pity-Pats are simply losers.


----------



## C_Clayton_Jones (Jul 13, 2011)

> A universal privatized system would bring the efficiencies of the market to a sector that badly needs it.



This is a myth. 

The problem is for almost 30 years now schools were forced to deal with social issues and public policy that were originally addressed by local government social services; schools were thus compelled to address issues having nothing to do with education. We need to refund local government programs which deal with problems associated with poverty and violence and get schools out of doing social work and back to educating.


----------



## Oddball (Jul 13, 2011)

C_Clayton_Jones said:


> > A universal privatized system would bring the efficiencies of the market to a sector that badly needs it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


If schools are gubmint-run institutions, they will always be testing grounds for social engineering by politically motivated people.

As long as politicians have a nexus with education, then education will always be politicized.


----------



## JakeStarkey (Jul 13, 2011)

Oddball, you are obviously a product of social engineering that test null potential.  Congrats.


----------



## uscitizen (Jul 13, 2011)

Oddball said:


> C_Clayton_Jones said:
> 
> 
> > > A universal privatized system would bring the efficiencies of the market to a sector that badly needs it.
> ...



And this is different in what way from private schools?


----------



## Oddball (Jul 13, 2011)

Nobody threatens to confiscate my property and possibly throw me in jail, if I don't support this or that fee-for-service school.

That's the difference.


----------



## JakeStarkey (Jul 13, 2011)

You best take that up with the Roberts Court, Oddball.  If you do, you will be sorely disappointed.


----------



## Oddball (Jul 13, 2011)

JakeStarkey said:


> Oddball, you are obviously a product of social engineering that test null potential.  Congrats.


And you are obviously the biggest bullshit artist that this forum has ever witnessed....And that covers some serious ground of bullshittery.

Congrats, bushitter.


----------



## JakeStarkey (Jul 13, 2011)

You are a libertarian loon, Oddball, nothing more.


----------



## Oddball (Jul 13, 2011)

At least I admit I'm a libertarian, as opposed to a leftloon freak who claims to be a republican.....Freak.


----------



## JakeStarkey (Jul 13, 2011)

Unlike you, I am a grown American veteran and lifelong Republican, who remains aghast of the Far Extremist Right Fascism that is swamping the far right on the party.  They have no intention of allowing any libertarian any freedom as you suppose.  Every vote for them as opposed to responsible Republicans is a not only a vote against your liberty but also against your ultimate safety.  You need to wake up.


----------



## Oddball (Jul 13, 2011)

You are a confirmed liar and a thread hijacker.

The topic of the thread is the merits of turning education over to the private sector, rather than operating it under a defacto gubmint monopoly.

Since anything you would have to say on that topic would only confirm what a poseur you are, it only follows that you'd go after people like me personally.

But thanks for playing...Johnny has a case of Bardahl for you as a parting gift.


----------



## American Cowboy (Jul 13, 2011)

We just need to get rid of the teachers unions and set higher standards of teaching. A teacher's success should be based on the students test scores. Test standards should also be raised. A teachers politics should also be left out of the classroom. Discussing politics in a non political class should be immediate termination.

 [ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FO3NBqT3LBc]&#x202a;School Children Taught to Praise Obama&#x202c;&rlm; - YouTube[/ame]


----------



## Patrick2 (Jul 13, 2011)

JakeStarkey said:


> Patrick, you are lying and you know it, unless your three degrees are primary, elementary, and middle school.



No, I'm not lying and I highly resent your gratuitous insult.  You know nothing about me.



> The wack far right has never been allowed to rewrite and revise history without being exposed for their out right perversions and lies.


 
What in the world are you talking about??


----------



## Patrick2 (Jul 13, 2011)

C_Clayton_Jones said:


> > A universal privatized system would bring the efficiencies of the market to a sector that badly needs it.
> 
> 
> 
> This is a myth.



Uh, no it isn't.



> The problem is for almost 30 years now schools were forced to deal with social issues and public policy that were originally addressed by local government social services; schools were thus compelled to address issues having nothing to do with education. We need to refund local government programs which deal with problems associated with poverty and violence and get schools out of doing social work and back to educating.



That is correct, but you'll never do that with the government school monopoly.  The leftwingers have politicized every aspect of education - they ARE the problem.  They are NEVER going to be the solution.


----------



## Patrick2 (Jul 13, 2011)

JakeStarkey said:


> Unlike you, I am a grown American veteran and lifelong Republican, who remains aghast of the Far Extremist Right Fascism that is swamping the far right on the party.



Where do you get this "fascist" rant?  There's NOTHING the republican party is doing, not even the RINO establishment, that remotely resembles fascism.  By contrast, the obama regime, which draws ever more power into the executive branch, and with their policies with regard to eg the auto industry which appears very much like corporatism, seems like something approaching fascism as time goes on.


----------



## Oddball (Jul 13, 2011)

Nevermind Jake the Fake.

He's the forum's leading political poseur.


----------



## Patrick2 (Jul 13, 2011)

American Cowboy said:


> We just need to get rid of the teachers unions and set higher standards of teaching. A teacher's success should be based on the students test scores. Test standards should also be raised. A teachers politics should also be left out of the classroom. Discussing politics in a non political class should be immediate termination.



Nope - the teachers are part of the problem but not all of it.  There's the top heavy administrative levels.  The Pee See'd curriculum.  The politicization.  The wasted money.  The lack of the salient effects of competition.  The government schools are like a ten year old car - when enough things go wrong, and you're fixing the fixes, then you realize you're throwing good money after bad.  It's time to rip out the existing failed system, root and branch.


----------



## Ravi (Jul 14, 2011)

uscitizen said:


> Yep cut off federal education funding and watch your property taxes raise.


Yep, watch them rise so the money can go to private corporations.

It's amazing what these people really want.


----------



## Oddball (Jul 14, 2011)

The hell you say?!?!?!?....Money going into the hands of people who work for a living and produce things that others willingly want to buy?!?!?!??


----------



## JakeStarkey (Jul 14, 2011)

Patrick2 said:


> JakeStarkey said:
> 
> 
> > Unlike you, I am a grown American veteran and lifelong Republican, who remains aghast of the Far Extremist Right Fascism that is swamping the far right on the party.
> ...



When you folks support corporatism, you support fascism.  When you support privatization taking government service contracts, you support fascism.  When you support one-party totalitarianism, you support fascism.  The Far Righty Extremist Fascists support the ultimate statism.


----------



## Big Fitz (Jul 14, 2011)

American Cowboy said:


> We just need to get rid of the teachers unions and set higher standards of teaching. A teacher's success should be based on the students test scores. Test standards should also be raised. A teachers politics should also be left out of the classroom. Discussing politics in a non political class should be immediate termination.
> 
> &#x202a;School Children Taught to Praise Obama&#x202c;&rlm; - YouTube


You should have seen the shrine they built to him in the entryway of an AfroIslamist school I drove schoolbus for during the election.  Every time that day when the kids saw an Obama sign, they'd start chanting like Pavlov's idiots.

I'm sure their school had NOTHING to do to indoctrinate these children to scream at the mere sight of the "O".  The really sad part though?  It was a charter school geared towards providing an "Islamic and Afrocentric" education.  So calling it a brainwashing academy for religious racists would probably be an accurate description.  But at least their kids weren't leaving to join Al Quaeda like another school in the area with a similar curriculum.


----------



## Patrick2 (Jul 14, 2011)

Ravi said:


> uscitizen said:
> 
> 
> > Yep cut off federal education funding and watch your property taxes raise.
> ...



How did we get to the state in this country where if a corporation makes money, it's a bad thing?  Money should only go to the government??


----------



## Patrick2 (Jul 14, 2011)

JakeStarkey said:


> Patrick2 said:
> 
> 
> > JakeStarkey said:
> ...



So outsourcing in your mind equals fascism?  Then every fedreal administration in history was fascist?  But you are confused - the hypothesis of the OP wasn't that the government let contracts for education, but that it get out of the business of education completely, at which it has failed, except for vouchers for poor children.


----------



## theHawk (Jul 14, 2011)

Patrick2 said:


> The US spends a lot more than most countries on education, and for paltry results.  Years ago, we could "afford" an incompetent government school system, because we had no competition in the world.  That world is gone - we compete with a unified europe and increasingly india and the PRC.  We can no longer be held back by a failed system.
> 
> The current government school system is a hundred years old and way obsolete.  The liberals have turned US schools into madrassas-lite with political indoctrination.  They are bloated with administrators.  They retain incompetent older teachers because of the seniority system.  They are way overpaid.  They've failed at their job.
> 
> ...




You are absolutely right.

Government has no reason to be envolved in education at all.  Libs believe in separation of church and state, why not a separation of education and state?  Nothing frightens liberals more than parents having many choices of where to send their kids to school.  They want the government in control so they can control the agenda being taught.


----------



## theHawk (Jul 14, 2011)

JakeStarkey said:


> When you folks support corporatism, you support fascism.  When you support privatization taking government service contracts, you support fascism.  When you support one-party totalitarianism, you support fascism.  The Far Righty Extremist Fascists support the ultimate statism.



"Far Righty Extremist Fascists" are Islamic terrorists, who want to control everything from education and religion from childhood as well as through adulthood.  We conservatives are fighting a war against those people.

Leftists on the other hand, sympathize with Islamists and share many of the same goals: A large overbearing government that controls every aspect of people's lives.

American conservatives are centrists that want a small government incapable of ruling over our lives in the way both Islamic fascists and Leftist socialists/communists want.


----------



## JakeStarkey (Jul 14, 2011)

theHawk said:


> JakeStarkey said:
> 
> 
> > When you folks support corporatism, you support fascism.  When you support privatization taking government service contracts, you support fascism.  When you support one-party totalitarianism, you support fascism.  The Far Righty Extremist Fascists support the ultimate statism.
> ...




"Far Righty Extremist Fascists" are wannabee Americans terrorists who share many of the same goals of the Islamofascists.  American Righty Extremist Fascists are not centrists, are not mainstream, a group of freaks who want to control how America lives.  Ultimate statism.


----------



## CrusaderFrank (Jul 14, 2011)

Patrick2 said:


> The US spends a lot more than most countries on education, and for paltry results.  Years ago, we could "afford" an incompetent government school system, because we had no competition in the world.  That world is gone - we compete with a unified europe and increasingly india and the PRC.  We can no longer be held back by a failed system.
> 
> The current government school system is a hundred years old and way obsolete.  The liberals have turned US schools into madrassas-lite with political indoctrination.  They are bloated with administrators.  They retain incompetent older teachers because of the seniority system.  They are way overpaid.  They've failed at their job.
> 
> ...


----------



## CrusaderFrank (Jul 14, 2011)

Progressive have sabotaged our schools so our children are totally clueless about our history and the greatness of our nation. Moreover, they are indoctrinated and taught not to think or question the status quo. And nowhere is the failure of our schools worse than in minority areas!

It's a system that need to be completed reformed and for his refusal to not only reform it, but allowing that Fat Fucking Murderer from Massachusetts write the No Child Left Educated Bill, it's the Number 1 Reason Id stick Dubya down in the 9th Circle of Hell


----------



## JakeStarkey (Jul 14, 2011)

That Frankie and Pat are against public education, based on the totality of all their posts on everything, is prima facie evidence that public ed is a good thing and all America must participate.


----------



## CrusaderFrank (Jul 14, 2011)

JakeStarkey said:


> That Frankie and Pat are against public education, based on the totality of all their posts on everything, is prima facie evidence that public ed is a good thing and all America must participate.



You're all done, Clown.

Public education graduates only 1 out of 6 NY City HS Students even remotely capable of functioning in college, and that's at a cost of $18K per student.

We know what you Progressives have done and we're not going to allow it any more.


----------



## JakeStarkey (Jul 14, 2011)

And Frank adds to the totality that he has not a clue.  Go, Frank, Go!


----------



## initforme (Jul 14, 2011)

Send the private schools all the behavior problems and low performing students.   Then lets take a look at their test scores.  Did they go down at all?  If so, close the whole school down.  Sarcasm. 
 The largest problem is not the downfall of the schools, but the downfall of parenting and lack of parenting.   Parents dont want anything to do with their kids and want the schools to fix the incredible number of problems their kids have.   Of course nobody can fix those kids, so they blame the schools. Its a vicious cycle.


----------



## CrusaderFrank (Jul 14, 2011)

JakeStarkey said:


> And Frank adds to the totality that he has not a clue.  Go, Frank, Go!


----------



## uscitizen (Jul 14, 2011)

CrusaderFrank said:


> JakeStarkey said:
> 
> 
> > That Frankie and Pat are against public education, based on the totality of all their posts on everything, is prima facie evidence that public ed is a good thing and all America must participate.
> ...



Big cities make you stupid, How is that related to public education?


----------



## Patrick2 (Jul 14, 2011)

initforme said:


> Send the private schools all the behavior problems and low performing students.   Then lets take a look at their test scores.  Did they go down at all?  If so, close the whole school down.  Sarcasm.



Under a universal privatized system, schools would be created to handle the market demand for special needs children.  They will do better than the government schools for the same reasons as schools for regular students: teachers are paid for performance, not seniority; schools are held strictly accountable and have nobody else to blame for failure, non-performing schools are quickly removed by the market.



> The largest problem is not the downfall of the schools, but the downfall of parenting and lack of parenting.   Parents dont want anything to do with their kids and want the schools to fix the incredible number of problems their kids have.   Of course nobody can fix those kids, so they blame the schools. Its a vicious cycle.



In what other profession could people get away with blaming their failures on someone else?  None that I know.


----------



## uscitizen (Jul 14, 2011)

In what other profession could people get away with blaming their failures on someone else? None that I know.

umm politics?


----------



## CrusaderFrank (Jul 14, 2011)

uscitizen said:


> CrusaderFrank said:
> 
> 
> > JakeStarkey said:
> ...



How has the USA done overall since the federalization of education? I highlight NYC to show the generational damage Progressives have done to minorities


----------



## Patrick2 (Jul 14, 2011)

uscitizen said:


> In what other profession could people get away with blaming their failures on someone else? None that I know.
> 
> umm politics?



Whoa!  You've promoted politics to a profession?   Well, wait .... maybe so..... after all they call whoring the oldest profession.


----------



## uscitizen (Jul 14, 2011)

CrusaderFrank said:


> uscitizen said:
> 
> 
> > CrusaderFrank said:
> ...



NYC ranks lower than Texas?


----------



## JakeStarkey (Jul 14, 2011)

uscitizen said:


> CrusaderFrank said:
> 
> 
> > JakeStarkey said:
> ...



The American political system from GOP to Dem have built the greatest country from the great public education system in history.

You are not going to be allowed to break it.


----------



## JakeStarkey (Jul 14, 2011)

Patrick2 said:


> uscitizen said:
> 
> 
> > In what other profession could people get away with blaming their failures on someone else? None that I know.
> ...



The Righty Extremist Facists of the far stupid wing of the GOP are moving the whores into second place.


----------



## Patrick2 (Jul 14, 2011)

JakeStarkey said:


> uscitizen said:
> 
> 
> > CrusaderFrank said:
> ...



America has suceeded *inspite* of the government schools, not because of them, and now, along with other leftwing institutions/policies are driving the US down into a failed second rate state.  They have to go, no ifs.


----------



## rdean (Jul 14, 2011)

Patrick2 said:


> The US spends a lot more than most countries on education, and for paltry results.  Years ago, we could "afford" an incompetent government school system, because we had no competition in the world.  That world is gone - we compete with a unified europe and increasingly india and the PRC.  We can no longer be held back by a failed system.
> 
> The current government school system is a hundred years old and way obsolete.  The liberals have turned US schools into madrassas-lite with political indoctrination.  They are bloated with administrators.  They retain incompetent older teachers because of the seniority system.  They are way overpaid.  They've failed at their job.
> 
> ...



We may be the most technologically advanced nation in the world, but don't worry, Republicans will soon stop that.  They want to slash education.  Their kids drop out in droves.  Their states have the worst colleges in the nation.  And I just watched GOP Rep Steve King insist he is an expert on Foreign economics because he had a job and raised a family.

Funny, it seems Republicans have never made the connection between being the world leaders in science and technology and our system of education.  In fact, many right wingers believe science is a "faith".  I guess that makes technology "magic".


----------



## Tank (Jul 14, 2011)

Hispanics and blacks have the highest dropout rates


----------



## JakeStarkey (Jul 14, 2011)

Patrick2 said:


> JakeStarkey said:
> 
> 
> > uscitizen said:
> ...



You don't have the #s, you never will, and your folks know full well what will happen if they rise against the will of the American people.  You are not going to be allowed to break it.


----------



## JakeStarkey (Jul 14, 2011)

Tank said:


> Hispanics and blacks have the highest dropout rates



Tank had the highest dropout rate in his elementary school.


----------



## Patrick2 (Jul 14, 2011)

rdean said:


> Patrick2 said:
> 
> 
> > The US spends a lot more than most countries on education, and for paltry results.  Years ago, we could "afford" an incompetent government school system, because we had no competition in the world.  That world is gone - we compete with a unified europe and increasingly india and the PRC.  We can no longer be held back by a failed system.
> ...


----------



## Tank (Jul 14, 2011)

I bet you guys think American schools becoming majority Hispanic won't change a thing.


----------



## Patrick2 (Jul 14, 2011)

JakeStarkey said:


> Patrick2 said:
> 
> 
> > JakeStarkey said:
> ...



The "american people" don't back the government school failures, and are just becoming aware of how overpaid they are, and how wretched is the product they produce.  They will ultimately continue to support the failed system only if the majority in this country becomes suicidal.


----------



## JakeStarkey (Jul 14, 2011)

The majority full well know your small minority will only enslave the majority: they will not permit it.


----------



## Patrick2 (Jul 15, 2011)

JakeStarkey said:


> The majority full well know your small minority will only enslave the majority: they will not permit it.



Do you realize how FUNNY you sound with your emo rhetoric? 

WAIT!  I GET IT!  YOU'RE A CONSERVATIVE HAVING A LITTLE FUN!


----------



## rdean (Jul 15, 2011)

Tank said:


> Hispanics and blacks have the highest dropout rates



Do right wingers always point to the lowest bar and say "See, they're worse"?  Among whites, who has the highest dropout rate?  Hint, the daughter of their vice presidential nominee and the daughter's boyfriend are both high school dropouts.  Only 6% or less of scientists belong to their political party.  90% of that party is white.  The majority of those party members live in Red States where the federal government has to prop up Red state economies on the backs of Blue States.

Are those clues enough?


----------



## Tank (Jul 15, 2011)

Blacks and Hispanics are Democrats


----------



## JakeStarkey (Jul 15, 2011)

Patrick2 said:


> JakeStarkey said:
> 
> 
> > The majority full well know your small minority will only enslave the majority: they will not permit it.
> ...



Pat, you know as well as I do that your rhetoric is adding fluff to a non-issue.  Your kind will never change the public ed system the way you wish.  The majority will never permit it.


----------



## CrusaderFrank (Jul 15, 2011)

Democrats use our schools as breeding grounds for failure, mediocrity and slavish devotion to the State; how else would people vote for them?


----------



## Moonglow (Jul 15, 2011)

Math class in privatized school: 
If you have one refreshing Pepsi, and then you have another refreshing Pepsi?
How much more refreshed will you be?


----------



## Moonglow (Jul 15, 2011)

CrusaderFrank said:


> Democrats use our schools as breeding grounds for failure, mediocrity and slavish devotion to the State; how else would people vote for them?



I'll take it that your an egotistical elitists.


----------



## CrusaderFrank (Jul 15, 2011)

Patrick2 said:


> JakeStarkey said:
> 
> 
> > The majority full well know your small minority will only enslave the majority: they will not permit it.
> ...



Oh, it's way more fun than that, Patrick!  Wait until you crack the Jake Code


----------



## Patrick2 (Jul 15, 2011)

JakeStarkey said:


> Patrick2 said:
> 
> 
> > JakeStarkey said:
> ...



The fact that almost EVERYONE recognizes that the schools have failed, that the US regularly ranks way back in international science and math test score is a *NON-ISSUE??*  Take off your blinders.


----------



## Tank (Jul 15, 2011)

Private Schools got real popular when public schools started there interacial busing programs.


----------



## JakeStarkey (Jul 15, 2011)

CrusaderFrank said:


> Patrick2 said:
> 
> 
> > JakeStarkey said:
> ...



The jakecode is necearry for unraveling Fascist Code Talk of Frank, Pat, and others.

For instance, when those fools talk about dems using public ed as slavish breeding grounds, they really mean the rural districts public ed districts that breed little TPbots.  But the nice thing is the little freakbots go to the big universities and get reprogrammed.

In the meantime, we responsible Republicans are stuck with the pretends like Frank, Zander, House, and other fascist wannabees.  A never ending battle against "Evil of the TPbots", but we keep them down here, and I understand other GOP safe districts are minimizing TP influence.  Thank heavens.


----------



## CrusaderFrank (Jul 15, 2011)

JakeStarkey said:


> CrusaderFrank said:
> 
> 
> > Patrick2 said:
> ...



Patrick, notice how Jake always has to highlight the "fact" that's he's a "Republican"

You have to check your local government because "Republicans" like Jake are actively engaged in local politics. We're starting to weed them out here.


----------



## JakeStarkey (Jul 15, 2011)

Don't need to highlight anything other than counter your lies about socialists, and martians, and commies, and heavens knows what else.

Frank, you yahoos are not going to take over until you give up some of your wack ideas.

We are not going to have a bunch of little wack Frank and Pat and Benny clones telling the rest of us how to live our lives.  Why?  You don't have and cannot get the votes.


----------



## ShackledNation (Jul 15, 2011)

JakeStarkey said:


> Privatization of the school system means profit . . . over education.  Nope, never going to happen.  Though possibly we can make private education illegal to make sure Righty Extremist Facists and Supposed Christians won't be able to indoctrinate our children.


The only way they can make profit is by providing education people will buy. In other words, only the best education can make profit. You misunderstand the profit motive. Profit is not earned at the expense of education, it is earned as a reward for providing successfully. Also note that private schools in the US outperform public schools, on average.


----------



## CrusaderFrank (Jul 15, 2011)

JakeStarkey said:


> Don't need to highlight anything other than counter your lies about socialists, and martians, and commies, and heavens knows what else.
> 
> Frank, you yahoos are not going to take over until you give up some of your wack ideas.
> 
> We are not going to have a bunch of little wack Frank and Pat and Benny clones telling the rest of us how to live our lives.  Why?  You don't have and cannot get the votes.



Jake, I don't give a fuck how you live your life.


----------



## Patrick2 (Jul 15, 2011)

JakeStarkey said:


> The jakecode is necearry for unraveling Fascist Code Talk of Frank, Pat, and others.



This groundless "fascist" charge of your is highly ironic, since the large use of corporatism by the leftwing in the last couple decades is right out of the 1930s fascist playbook.


----------



## theHawk (Jul 15, 2011)

JakeStarkey said:


> theHawk said:
> 
> 
> > JakeStarkey said:
> ...



Funny how you didn't even attempt to back up your claims with examples.

Strange how the current Republicans want to instil 'fascism' by drastically cutting the government, and yet Democrats want to increase spending ten fold in order to....keep the government out of our lives?


----------



## Patrick2 (Jul 15, 2011)

CrusaderFrank said:


> JakeStarkey said:
> 
> 
> > CrusaderFrank said:
> ...



He's a republican like I'm the Grand Duke of Lichtenstein.


----------



## Patrick2 (Jul 15, 2011)

JakeStarkey said:


> Don't need to highlight anything other than counter your lies about socialists, and martians, and commies, and heavens knows what else.
> 
> Frank, you yahoos are not going to take over until you give up some of your wack ideas.
> 
> We are not going to have a bunch of little wack Frank and Pat and Benny clones telling the rest of us how to live our lives.  Why?  You don't have and cannot get the votes.



You've made this same post about five times - quit cluttering the thread.


----------



## Oddball (Jul 15, 2011)

ShackledNation said:


> JakeStarkey said:
> 
> 
> > Privatization of the school system means profit . . . over education.  Nope, never going to happen.  Though possibly we can make private education illegal to make sure Righty Extremist Facists and Supposed Christians won't be able to indoctrinate our children.
> ...


Profit is to liberoidal douchebags like Jake the Fake what garlic is to vampires....Unless, of course, they're profiting off of big gubmint.


----------



## JakeStarkey (Jul 15, 2011)

You, Oddball, have profited from gubmint, big and little: defense, infrastructure major and minor, LEO, fire protection, sanitation, sewage, water, energy, and so forth and so on.

You are merely a dribble on the trousers of America.  Pathetic little man, so afraid to give back in return for all the opportunity you have had as an American.  Shameful, utterly shameful.


----------



## Patrick2 (Jul 15, 2011)

JakeStarkey said:


> You, Oddball, have profited from gubmint, big and little: defense, infrastructure major and minor, LEO, fire protection, sanitation, sewage, water, energy, and so forth and so on.



What you just cited are some of the legitimate tasks of government.  It's the "so forth" that's the problem.


----------



## JakeStarkey (Jul 15, 2011)

Patrick, you have made a start.


----------



## Patrick2 (Jul 15, 2011)

JakeStarkey said:


> Patrick, you have made a start.



What do you mean by that?


----------



## Oddball (Jul 15, 2011)

JakeStarkey said:


> You are merely a dribble on the trousers of America.  Pathetic little man, so afraid to give back in return for all the opportunity you have had as an American.  Shameful, utterly shameful.


You perfectly illustrate the difference between a street thug and a socialist political hack: The mugger will only steal from me once and won't wag his finger at me about how greedy I am, to want to keep what belongs to me.


Fuck you, looter.


----------



## JakeStarkey (Jul 15, 2011)

False logic.  Taxation is lawful, the Americans social compact is moral, and you will contribute.  To be given the opportunities that you have received and turn your back still points you out as found wanting. Shameful.


----------



## Big Fitz (Jul 15, 2011)

Oddball said:


> JakeStarkey said:
> 
> 
> > You are merely a dribble on the trousers of America.  Pathetic little man, so afraid to give back in return for all the opportunity you have had as an American.  Shameful, utterly shameful.
> ...


Every time you acknowledge his existence a fairy votes democrat.


----------



## CitizenPained (Jul 16, 2011)

I'm still wondering who here could afford private education.

Because if you had 'universal privatization' (which sounds like an oxymoron), that's what would happen.

Look at New York during admissions season. Every rich parent is freaking out in March and wondering if their five year old will get into the kindergarten of choice.


----------



## Patrick2 (Jul 16, 2011)

CitizenPained said:


> I'm still wondering who here could afford private education.



The rich could pay.  The middle class would rather use the money for the Hawaii vacation - tough.  As I said, the government would give the poor vouchers. 



> Because if you had 'universal privatization' (which sounds like an oxymoron), that's what would happen.



How is it an oxymoron?  It means: government goes out of the education business except for the vouchers.



> Look at New York during admissions season. Every rich parent is freaking out in March and wondering if their five year old will get into the kindergarten of choice.



The current boutique system of private schools has almost nothing to do with the nature or operation of a universal privatized system.


----------



## CitizenPained (Jul 16, 2011)

If the voucher is worth 10k and the school costs 20k, what does that mean? What if all the good schools were more expensive?

If any 'voucher' is good for any 'school', that's not going to change much. Many states and metro areas already have school choice. No voucher needed.


----------



## Patrick2 (Jul 16, 2011)

CitizenPained said:


> If the voucher is worth 10k and the school costs 20k, what does that mean? What if all the good schools were more expensive?
> 
> If any 'voucher' is good for any 'school', that's not going to change much. Many states and metro areas already have school choice. No voucher needed.



Vouchers should be given in an amount that meets the current market price of any average school.

The current so-called school choice has nothing to do with a universal privatized system.  Quit trying to shoe-horn what I said into aspects of the  current failed system.


----------



## CitizenPained (Jul 16, 2011)

I'm not. All I'm saying is that the rich schools will end up being the better ones (that's the market) and the poor and lower middle class will lose out.

I went to private school and then to a great high school. My son goes to private school on scholarship. There's no fucking way I would have made it through the teen years without having an awesome education to fall back on.


----------



## Patrick2 (Jul 16, 2011)

CitizenPained said:


> I'm not. All I'm saying is that the rich schools will end up being the better ones (that's the market) and the poor and lower middle class will lose out.



They won't "lose out" - that everyone can't go to a perfect school is not a valid objection.  And the schools they go to will be FARRRRR superior to the government schools.  ONCE AGAIN, the poor will get vouchers sufficient for average schools.




> went to private school and then to a great high school. My son goes to private school on scholarship. There's no fucking way I would have made it through the teen years without having an awesome education to fall back on.



I went to GHETTO K12 schools.  I worked hard after high school to catch up from that experience, and hold three degrees:  BS physics, MS astronomy, MS computer science.


----------



## CitizenPained (Jul 16, 2011)

Oh, I lived in the poor part o town. I just lucked out at how nerdy I naturally was.


----------



## psikeyhackr (Jul 16, 2011)

Patrick2 said:


> I went to GHETTO K12 schools.  I worked hard after high school to catch up from that experience, and hold three degrees:  BS physics, MS astronomy, MS computer science.



Well those computers can change the entire educational paradigm.

In fact that was proven in 1987 at Vero Beach Fl high school.

*Bennet*t  <- Link

The funny thing about that is that the teachers did not object because they did not want to be bothered with the BAD students.  So we have the technology to deliver good education everywhere on the cheap.  But what would that do to the socio-economic class structure?

The Tyranny of Words by Stuart Chase
Books: Semantics - TIME

Celestia: space simulation of the universe in 3D
Celestia: Home

GeoGebra: Interactive graphics, algebra and spreadsheet 
GeoGebra

Teach Yourself Electricity and Electronics, by Stan Gibilisco 
McGraw-Hill Professional - Search Results

Solve Elec: draw and analyze electrical circuits
Solve Elec - Educational software

Logisim: Digital logic circuit simulator
Logisim

So why don't we have something as simple as a national recommended reading list after all of these decades?

psik

PS - Funny how the physicists don't demand accurate data on the distributions of steel in skyscrapers.  

psikeyhackr - Physics, Psychology and the 9/11 Decade


----------



## JakeStarkey (Jul 16, 2011)

CitizenPained said:


> If the voucher is worth 10k and the school costs 20k, what does that mean? What if all the good schools were more expensive?
> 
> If any 'voucher' is good for any 'school', that's not going to change much. Many states and metro areas already have school choice. No voucher needed.



Patrick's voucher system for education is no more sensible or American than Ryan's voucher for elder care in the medical system.


----------



## Patrick2 (Jul 16, 2011)

JakeStarkey said:


> CitizenPained said:
> 
> 
> > If the voucher is worth 10k and the school costs 20k, what does that mean? What if all the good schools were more expensive?
> ...



Facts?  Arguments?  You apparently don't have any.


----------



## JakeStarkey (Jul 16, 2011)

The counter argument is logical and clear.  If the vouchers are not indexed to actually pricing but simply GDP or inflation, then the vouchers may well not be sufficient at a critical time in a person's life.

Here, this will help cheer you up,.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Y1D0v1uunU]&#x202a;Glee Cast - Loser Like Me (Glee Cast Version)&#x202c;&rlm; - YouTube[/ame]


----------



## Patrick2 (Jul 16, 2011)

JakeStarkey said:


> The counter argument is logical and clear.  If the vouchers are not indexed to actually pricing but simply GDP or inflation, then the vouchers may well not be sufficient at a critical time in a person's life.



I ALREADY SAID that the proposed vouchers would be fixed at the *average market price*.  

Try to keep up.


----------



## JakeStarkey (Jul 16, 2011)

The average market price is not actual pricing of services.  Variations will exist, for which you can't compensate.  Please pay attention.

So, basically, you advocate single payer through government, with servicing by competing health care cartels.


----------



## CitizenPained (Jul 16, 2011)

Patrick2 said:


> JakeStarkey said:
> 
> 
> > The counter argument is logical and clear.  If the vouchers are not indexed to actually pricing but simply GDP or inflation, then the vouchers may well not be sufficient at a critical time in a person's life.
> ...



Jake is keeping up just fine. Not sure if you've been employed in the school system or not, but schools are notorious for cutting $$ corners.


----------



## CitizenPained (Jul 16, 2011)

I could ALMOST support a national basic education program that all schools were required to implement and every student had to complete in order to graduate. Raise the graduation age to 19. If you can't hack it in five years, gettout.

And then they could compete on 'extras', like art, dance, sports, religion, whatever. So everyone gets the same 'three Rs' and and the there's school choice for the things that kids 'need' for their personalities/talents/whatever.

And all schools would have to take in ESL and special needs.


----------



## Patrick2 (Jul 16, 2011)

JakeStarkey said:


> The average market price is not actual pricing of services.  Variations will exist, for which you can't compensate.



Whaaaaaaatttttt??????  You're incoherent.  If poor people are given average price vouchers, they'll find educational services, since they have enough money for half the schools.



> So, basically, you advocate single payer through government, with servicing by competing health care cartels.



Health care???  Uh, you're apparently confused about what thread you're in.


----------



## Patrick2 (Jul 16, 2011)

CitizenPained said:


> Patrick2 said:
> 
> 
> > JakeStarkey said:
> ...



No Jake is confused.  In california, government school teachers make out like bandits while producing some of the poorest results in the US.


----------



## JakeStarkey (Jul 16, 2011)

Patrick2 said:


> JakeStarkey said:
> 
> 
> > The average market price is not actual pricing of services.  Variations will exist, for which you can't compensate.
> ...



See.  I helped you out.  Now let's talk about education, not health care.  Why don't you simply pay across the board costs for education?  You can't and you won't.  The average pricing you are talking about does not exist, but if it did, you would be sentencing all poor children to poor education.  Too many exceptions to that exist even today for that to ever be accepted.

Nope.  Stupid idea.  Won't work.  Not one of the 1000 points of light, Patrick.


----------



## CitizenPained (Jul 16, 2011)

Patrick2 said:


> CitizenPained said:
> 
> 
> > Patrick2 said:
> ...



yes. a starting salary of 37k is BANK in salinas, CA --  a city where the murder rate is 4x the national average.


----------



## JakeStarkey (Jul 16, 2011)

CitizenPained said:


> Patrick2 said:
> 
> 
> > CitizenPained said:
> ...



Yeah, Patrick is confusing the teacher's salary with causing the crash with those of the bankers.  Poor bankers.  Such a bum rap.


----------



## Zona (Jul 16, 2011)

jillian said:


> Patrick2 said:
> 
> 
> > The US spends a lot more than most countries on education, and for paltry results.  Years ago, we could "afford" an incompetent government school system, because we had no competition in the world.  That world is gone - we compete with a unified europe and increasingly india and the PRC.  We can no longer be held back by a failed system.
> ...



If those kids are poor, its their fault and they should not be educated.  The righty's need a poor class.  Fuck the poor.


----------



## Patrick2 (Jul 16, 2011)

CitizenPained said:


> Patrick2 said:
> 
> 
> > CitizenPained said:
> ...



Average salary in california for teachers is about 62K, plus health benefits, plus a defined benefit pension, almost unheard of in the private sector.  Learn the facts and stop making a fool of yourself.


----------



## Patrick2 (Jul 16, 2011)

JakeStarkey said:


> CitizenPained said:
> 
> 
> > Patrick2 said:
> ...



Quit cluttering the thread with your imbecilities.


----------



## Patrick2 (Jul 16, 2011)

Zona said:


> jillian said:
> 
> 
> > Patrick2 said:
> ...



That's exactly what the government schools do - fuck the poor.


----------



## CitizenPained (Jul 16, 2011)

Patrick2 said:


> CitizenPained said:
> 
> 
> > Patrick2 said:
> ...



That will change as teachers have a hard time staying in the profession now. (It's about 5-7 years.) Anyway, I said STARTING salary. The teachers making 70k have been there 15 years. 

Apparently your public education failed to school you in reading comprehension skills.


----------



## Patrick2 (Jul 16, 2011)

CitizenPained said:


> Patrick2 said:
> 
> 
> > CitizenPained said:
> ...



I understood what you said.  37K for a dimwitted teacher's degree is plenty, actually about twice what it should be worth.


----------



## CitizenPained (Jul 16, 2011)

Glad to see you value teachers.


----------



## Patrick2 (Jul 17, 2011)

CitizenPained said:


> Glad to see you value teachers.



Teachers have failed this country.  Let me tell you about a high school teacher I had - Mrs. Gould.  We called her Mrs. Ghoul.  She would come in ten minutes late, tell us to read something in our lit book, and say little else.  Then she started coming in, putting her head on the desk, and sleeping the whole period.  You can imagine the kids just talking and goofing off.  I remember one time she roused herself enough to say "You goddam kids! You can SEE I'm trying to sleep and you won't shut up!"


----------



## theHawk (Jul 17, 2011)

CitizenPained said:


> Patrick2 said:
> 
> 
> > CitizenPained said:
> ...



Hahaha Salinas.  That place is like being in Mexico. Have you been to the mall there?  GHETTO.


----------



## JakeStarkey (Jul 17, 2011)

Patrick2 said:


> CitizenPained said:
> 
> 
> > Glad to see you value teachers.
> ...



An undocumented, anecdotal quote from a person who has trouble with critical thinking skills (that's you, Patrick), and everyone is thinking, "Yah, Patrick, has a problem.  Himself!"


----------



## Patrick2 (Jul 17, 2011)

JakeStarkey said:


> Patrick2 said:
> 
> 
> > CitizenPained said:
> ...



If you are unable to debate the issue, will please at least quit cluttering the thread with these meaningless insult posts?


----------



## JakeStarkey (Jul 17, 2011)

You have offered nothing factual or evidential that holds wait, Pat, that's the problem.  Do it or shut up.


----------



## Patrick2 (Jul 17, 2011)

JakeStarkey said:


> You have offered nothing factual or evidential that holds wait, Pat, that's the problem.  Do it or shut up.



There should be a forum rule against what you do - an anti-littering rule.  You've made lots of posts in this thread, and I can't remember a single substantive one.


----------

