# Do you believe that mental illness is a



## Tinktink (Jun 18, 2009)

Medical condition or a emotional one?


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## dilloduck (Jun 18, 2009)

Tinktink said:


> Medical condition or a emotional one?



Which mental illness ?


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## alan1 (Jun 18, 2009)

Tinktink said:


> Medical condition or a emotional one?



Yes.


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## Tinktink (Jun 18, 2009)

dilloduck said:


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Schizophrenia, bordline, manic depressive, or depression.


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## Tinktink (Jun 18, 2009)

MountainMan said:


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So you say both?   How do you distinquish between the two?


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## dilloduck (Jun 18, 2009)

Tinktink said:


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medical


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## alan1 (Jun 18, 2009)

Tinktink said:


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Yes.  Very carefully.


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## KittenKoder (Jun 18, 2009)

There is a problem with mental illness that is often overlooked, it is completely theoretical. The only thing we know is that people have such problems, but what causes them, their exact nature, even the symptoms are mostly guess work. I have several diagnosed mental illnesses, and was incorrectly diagnosed and medicated when I was a teenager (the most likely possible cause of my current problems actually). Luckily all mine are social (real life social that is) so they have little impact online, which turns out my new doctor said is probably the best therapy for me than anything they can prescribe. Many times symptoms overlap, and medications have rarely proven effective or at least have had major side effects which can cause just as many problems. Often the matter comes to "which problems can you live with the best." One major drawback is that they cannot be diagnosed reliably in most patients, we (the patients) feel this is "normal" and since we have no way to compare it to what "normal" actually is, medical professionals have to base everything on what we tell them, sometimes one little detail is enough to completely change the problem, but we leave that tiny detail out thinking it's "normal" ourselves. So it's roulette for the doctors, not hard fact like physical ailments.


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## Tinktink (Jun 18, 2009)

dilloduck said:


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That is what I think too.   You would be surprised how many think otherwise.


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## dilloduck (Jun 18, 2009)

Tinktink said:


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not really---- iargue with em al lthe time here


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## Tinktink (Jun 18, 2009)

KittenKoder said:


> There is a problem with mental illness that is often overlooked, it is completely theoretical. The only thing we know is that people have such problems, but what causes them, their exact nature, even the symptoms are mostly guess work. I have several diagnosed mental illnesses, and was incorrectly diagnosed and medicated when I was a teenager (the most likely possible cause of my current problems actually). Luckily all mine are social (real life social that is) so they have little impact online, which turns out my new doctor said is probably the best therapy for me than anything they can prescribe. Many times symptoms overlap, and medications have rarely proven effective or at least have had major side effects which can cause just as many problems. Often the matter comes to "which problems can you live with the best." One major drawback is that they cannot be diagnosed reliably in most patients, we (the patients) feel this is "normal" and since we have no way to compare it to what "normal" actually is, medical professionals have to base everything on what we tell them, sometimes one little detail is enough to completely change the problem, but we leave that tiny detail out thinking it's "normal" ourselves. So it's roulette for the doctors, not hard fact like physical ailments.



Oh there is a fine line between mental illness. and emotional expression.   That is a fact.   Often folks that are doing nothing other then emotionaling expressing themselves )not to the liking of Society) are seen a "sick".   I think that is why the field is so infant.   Being ablle to distinquish between the two.   I believe mental illness exsists.   I don't believe that we have come to a place to to distinquish it though,. other then schizophrenia.


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## Tinktink (Jun 18, 2009)

dilloduck said:


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lol


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## jgbkab (Jun 18, 2009)

I believe some are medical and some are emotional. Nervous breakdown or depression = emotional. schizophrenia or psychosis...medical.


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## Tinktink (Jun 18, 2009)

MountainMan said:


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I am sorry, no disrespect, but I don't understand what you are saying.   You say yes to both samples, and then say very carefully to how you distinquish them.    Are you making a funny?


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## Tinktink (Jun 18, 2009)

jgbkab said:


> I believe some are medical and some are emotional. Nervous breakdown or depression = emotional. schizophrenia or psychosis...medical.


Good in sight.


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## dilloduck (Jun 18, 2009)

jgbkab said:


> I believe some are medical and some are emotional. Nervous breakdown or depression = emotional. schizophrenia or psychosis...medical.



Depression ?  Clinical depression ?  Medical.


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## jgbkab (Jun 18, 2009)

dilloduck said:


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I've never studied nor suffered from depression. That's why my opinion is that it is emotional. I didn't even know there were different types of depression.


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## dilloduck (Jun 18, 2009)

jgbkab said:


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endogenous and exogenous--check em out


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## Tinktink (Jun 18, 2009)

dilloduck said:


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Throwing a wrench in here... Dil.   Everyone gets sad about life's events.   To say they don't would to apply a social path to their personality.   What I think is so hard to decipher, is depression = sadness, to depression = mental illness.   

I had a good freind get all bummed out about being dumped.   So much so she went to a psychologist.   Who in turn recommended medication.   She wasn't mentally ill, she was just suffering normal saddness and loss.   So I have a little hesitation to calling depression, a mental illness... however Clinical depression I don't.


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## dilloduck (Jun 18, 2009)

Tinktink said:


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exogenous---no need for meds cause it won't really help


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## RetiredGySgt (Jun 19, 2009)

Tinktink said:


> Medical condition or a emotional one?



It is a medical condition.


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## RetiredGySgt (Jun 19, 2009)

Tinktink said:


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Clinical Depression is not normal sadness. I have a chemical imbalance. Medication definitely helps. For most of my life I just dealt with my depression and toughed it out. Eventually that no longer worked and it took 10 years of to find the right combination of medicine and life conditions to let me function nearly normal again.

It was like night and day when we found the right medication. I went from nearly overpowering urges to kill myself on a daily bases to none at all. I went from a deep dark bottomless dark hole to being able to function nearly normal again.

Everyone has sadness, when it becomes uncontrollable and totally alters your life it is not just sadness anymore. 80 percent of clinical depression can be treated.

My condition was so bad that I tried electro shock treatments. From 1996 to 2000 I was in the hospital at least twice sometimes 3 times a year. When I finally broke and could not handle my depression anymore I spent 90 days in the Hospital just so I could handle not being in the hospital. 38 days first with a 5 day stint out, followed by 28 days and about a month out and then a final 14 day stay before I was put on Temporary Disabled Retired List.

I have been completely retired since September 1999. Even today I can not work and handle my depression. And it has been constant with no breaks. It never goes away, just now it is much easier to deal with.


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## JBeukema (Jun 19, 2009)

IO wonder whether more mental illness occurs today per capita, or it's just more widely recognized. How might this fit into our model of human development? What sort of evolutionary pressure might this turn out to be?

oh, RGS- have they done MRI or CT scans? Can they show you this chemical imbalance- and not just the one cause4d by the meds? Usually, none can be detected save for what the meds cause.


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## eots (Jun 19, 2009)

there is no proof of any chemical imbalance that causes mental illness...none...it is a emotional/spiritual problem


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## JBeukema (Jun 19, 2009)

eots said:


> there is no proof of any chemical imbalance that causes mental illness...none...i


that is not true in all cases
schizophrenia, for instance, shows abnormal brain activity, if I recall


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## RetiredGySgt (Jun 19, 2009)

eots said:


> there is no proof of any chemical imbalance that causes mental illness...none...it is a emotional/spiritual problem



Ohh look, the ignorant have spoken.


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## eots (Jun 19, 2009)

JBeukema said:


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no sorry there is ..no test ...of any kind for mental illness other than subjective observation
there is no Brain scan... no diagnostic test of any kind for any mental illness,,,there is no question about it


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## eots (Jun 19, 2009)

RetiredGySgt said:


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post a link that states there is a diagnostic test for mental illness or any proof of chemical imbalances or... shut up...


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## RetiredGySgt (Jun 19, 2009)

eots said:


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Moron, that does not prove your point at all. And of course you conveniently ignore the YEARS of proof that medication does in fact lessen or eliminate mental illness.

By the way, there is now, according to a story I saw the other day, a test for dementia. Maybe you should look into that.


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## JBeukema (Jun 19, 2009)

right.. 






Source:  E. Fuller Torrey, M.D., The Treatment Advocacy Center

and what are your qualifications for refuting the UoF?
n an article published in the current issue of the Journal of Biological Psychiatry, UF Brain Institute researchers report that by analyzing magnetic resonance imaging scans, they were able to correctly determine 77 percent of time which study participants had schizophrenia.
MRI Scans Reveal Subtle Brain Differences In People With Schizophrenia, UF Researchers Find

It's amazing what ten seconds on Google turns up...


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## RetiredGySgt (Jun 19, 2009)

eots said:


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I do not need to. I am living proof medication works and we have decades of proof medication works on all kind of mental illness.

And there are Diagnostic procedures used to determine lots of mental illness. They consist of a series of questions.


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## eots (Jun 19, 2009)

post a link  or shut up...dementia  like a brain injury can be detected you fool because there is deterioration of the brain...like a blood clot ..or head injury..it is a medical condition ..not ...a so called mental illness the fact is there is no proof of the chemical imbalance theory...no test of any kind these are the facts...your a big boy ..you can choose to take drugs if you like ...but the facts remain


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## eots (Jun 19, 2009)

JBeukema said:


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this is a fraud or misleading perhaps the article attached to explains further ..but the very same brain structure occurs in people with out schizophrenia and schizophrenia occurs in people with out any abnormalities


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## eots (Jun 19, 2009)

FROM THE ARTICAL


Dr. John Kuldau, a professor of psychiatry in the UF College of Medicine and chief of psychiatry for the Malcom Randall Veterans Affairs Medical Center in Gainesville. "But the disease is much more complicated than that. Like diabetes, *it is thought to be caused *by an interplay between *genetic and environmental factors." *





> said Kuldau, who is now working to replicate the findings with other study participants.



*its important to note these people have all been on brain damaging and altering chemicals for years prior to these test*






> Kuldau said brain anatomy should be viewed as "an informative intermediary step" between genes and the development of schizophrenia, *rather than as a direct cause*




all bullshit the claims of one as of yet not peer reviewed or replicated test


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## eots (Jun 19, 2009)

RetiredGySgt said:


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sugar pills work on a large number of people in psychosis as well..isnt that intresting


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## eots (Jun 19, 2009)

Recently there&#8217;s been a lot of media attention directed at the antidepressants versus placebo debate. It seems controlled studies have shown placebos, given unknowingly to a depressed patient, have gained as good results as giving the actual medication.

Antidepressants and the Placebo Debate



Placebo Treatment in Teenagers With Major Depressive Disorder
http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/701842


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## DamnYankee (Jun 19, 2009)

jgbkab said:


> I believe some are medical and some are emotional. Nervous breakdown or depression = emotional. schizophrenia or psychosis...medical.



Disagreeing. There absolutely are medical factors for depression, one of which is a chemical imbalance.


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## DamnYankee (Jun 19, 2009)

Tinktink said:


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The reason for the differentiation. There's an epidemic of people who say "I'm depressed." when what they really mean is "I'm deeply sad an hurt."  In most cases, a therapist isn't required, let alone medication -- only an appropriate amount of grieving time based on the individual's needs.

Real depression is nothing like that, and generally is combined with other disorders, such as anxiety or paranoia, and it disables the person's ability to function on a daily basis in their "normal" routine.


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## Tinktink (Jun 19, 2009)

eots said:


> FROM THE ARTICAL
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> Dr. John Kuldau, a professor of psychiatry in the UF College of Medicine and chief of psychiatry for the Malcom Randall Veterans Affairs Medical Center in Gainesville. "But the disease is much more complicated than that. Like diabetes, *it is thought to be caused *by an interplay between *genetic and environmental factors." *
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There is no doubt that psych meds have effects on the brain Chemistry.   Often people with schizoprhenia would rather suffer their torment then suffer the side effects of their medications.   There is also no doubt that medication work to help people suffering with a mental illness.   That being said, there are more studies that prove Mental illness is real physical disease, then not.


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## DamnYankee (Jun 19, 2009)

eots said:


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Gee.... So the APA admits there is no test and that's conclusive evidence that the imbalance doesn't exist? Would that mean that prior to DNA testing you would have argued that DNA didn't exist?


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## Tinktink (Jun 19, 2009)

eots said:


> post a link  or shut up...dementia  like a brain injury can be detected you fool because there is deterioration of the brain...like a blood clot ..or head injury..it is a medical condition ..not ...a so called mental illness the fact is there is no proof of the chemical imbalance theory...no test of any kind these are the facts...your a big boy ..you can choose to take drugs if you like ...but the facts remain



Those are not facts.   Facts are living proof by folks that suffer with it.   Retired is a fact.   Your studies are just that studies, because for each study you post that states Mental illness is not physical, I would bet my bank account I can post 10 that says it is.   Asking someone who has first hand personal knowledge for links shows you truly don't want to know the truth.   I would take the word of Retired, before I listened to some study that was  most likey was done to prove what the person doing the study wanted to prove, and not what the real fact do.


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## editec (Jun 19, 2009)

Tinktink said:


> Medical condition or a emotional one?


 

What's the difference?

Mental and emotional states of being are physical states of being that manifest in ways that we call mental or emotional states of being.

But our every emotion and thought starts out in the physical realm, doesn't it?

Unless, of course, you believe in a soul, in which case I suppose you could imagine that people's souls are choosing to be psychotic, or whatever.

Such magical thinking as that is fairly typical, isn't it?

That's why, for example, some highly misifnormed people actually do believe that homosexuals are choosing to be gay.

The head/heart delusion is understandable, of course, but it's still completely wrong.


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## dilloduck (Jun 19, 2009)

> But our every emotion and thought starts out in the physical realm, doesn't it?



bingo--!


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## DamnYankee (Jun 19, 2009)

dilloduck said:


> > But our every emotion and thought starts out in the physical realm, doesn't it?
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Ya think that was too much logic for Eots?


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## editec (Jun 19, 2009)

Clinical Depression is to sadness as being in a coma is to sleep, folks.

Of course, if you've never been clinically depressed it's fairly easy to understand why you might not recognize the difference.

Since you're not actually experiencing that state of being, you don't really have a clue what is happening to the person who is.  They typically just look sad or lethargic or, if you're not sympathetic you might think they just look lazy.

Hell I worked in a psych ward and at the time I thought the clinically depression patients just needed a good kick in the pants, too.

It's a common enough mistake to assume that clinical depression is just sadness.

It isn't.


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## dilloduck (Jun 19, 2009)

editec said:


> Clinical Depression is to sadness as being in a coma is to sleep, folks.
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Sorta like trying to talk a schizophrenic out of hearing voices.


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## editec (Jun 19, 2009)

dilloduck said:


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Yup.


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## BaltimoreBob (Jun 19, 2009)

I think Mental Illness 
is when your like my ex and try to get away with too much shit in your life
and then you depend on the Cowards of America to support you.
To overlook her ways and realize she's not born with a Penis
and needs to be looked at like a Person better then any Male.
While the Male has a Penis and therefore has two brains.
America needs to treat the woman more like a Retarded person
and expect more from the two brained male.

Yea she does have a mental illness and won't get treated.
Typical Mental Illness person.
While I have seen Mental Illness people many times
and they have said I'm OK.
They say We know that Society as a whole is very Cowardly.

Baltimore Bob


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## Care4all (Jun 19, 2009)

eots said:


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There was no Mri identifying where there was cancer in your body a few decades ago, does that mean that there was no cancerous disease in your body?


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## RetiredGySgt (Jun 19, 2009)

editec said:


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Eots is one of those fools that thinks all one need do is quit being lazy and have a stiff upper lip and you can wash away severe depression.

He will NEVER get it unless he suffers from it. No matter how much he is told by people that have suffered and ARE suffering he can not grasp the concept.

I spent days laying on my bed afraid to move because if I did I would kill myself. ALL my strength was involved in fighting that overpowering urge, if I moved it would take some of that energy away. There was no energy to "think positive thoughts" or get my lazy ass out of bed and do something. The something would have been blow my brains out.

He can not fathom that medication works because he has never spent 10 YEARS going through medications in a search for the one that would finally work. Him and his sugar pills. In the end it is a combination of pills that work, Geodon, Celexa and Provigal. 

He can not grasp the concept that someone can be so depressed, their life and existence so miserable they AGREE to Electro Shock treatment. So miserable that you turn yourself into a mental facility cause you don't have enough strength to keep fighting the desire to end your life.

He can not grasp that clinical depression is being so depressed it is like being in a deep dark hole and there is no light and no hope for any light. He can not understand that it is so bad you can not function. You can not work, you can not even interact with your family.

The failure of one drug after another to even dent the darkness. Or the temporary marginal help of one drug that after a bit stops even doing that. 10 YEARS living in a hole fighting the desire to end your life. Unable to function in society or even your own home.

My problem is compounded by the delusional paranoia and a voice I did not even know was not just me talking to myself till Geodon turned it OFF. Geodon is not really an antidepressant it is an anti psychotic. Something I resisted taking the entire time because I did not believe I had that kind of problem. The Doctor had to mislead me a little to start taking it, only describing it as an antidepressant that helped with other things and treated me with more than serotonin.

I will never stop taking it. Within a few days the voice I did not even realize was a separate thing STOPPED. I no longer had to listen to that monologue of what a failure and loser I was going on in my head. And as we increased the celexa eventually I completely stopped having suicidal thoughts. Ohh they come and go now and again but it is not a constant daily thing.

I still can not work, any medium stress even and I am back in that hole looking out. But I can nearly function normally again. I haven't been to the mental facility in 7 years now. As opposed to 2 to 3 times a year before.

Eots is a fool and does not even realize it. He would deny thousands of people effective treatment for a condition that makes life a hell, cause he can not understand.


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## jgbkab (Jun 19, 2009)

RetiredGySgt said:


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Man, that is very deep and sad in a way. Sorry to hear that you go through that. I will admit that I did not know that people go through things like that and I thought they needed a kick in the pants. But you can't really expect people that haven't experienced it to really understand can you?


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## eots (Jun 19, 2009)

Brain Damage Caused by Neuroleptic Psychiatric Drugs

In the past two decades, countless medical studies have shown that use of neuroleptic psychiatric drugs (also known as antipsychotics) is associated with structural brain changes, especially when taking high dosages for a long time. These brain changes can include actual shrinkage of the higher level parts of the brain. The shrinkage can be seen in brain scans and autopsy studies. In response to industry defenders who claim that this shrinkage is from the "mental illness," studies show neuroleptics lead to similar brain changes in animals. While the medical side of large libraries has this information, the public media side of the library does not. In other words, the public, patients and their families are not being informed about what medicine has long known. 


Brain Damage Caused by Neuroleptic Psychiatric Drugs &mdash; MFI Portal


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## eots (Jun 19, 2009)

Care4all said:


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there is no definitive diagnostic test of any kind for mental illness...only subjective observation..these are simply the facts


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## Tinktink (Jun 19, 2009)

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You sir are a tribute to the success of fighting the odds.   I find it amazing that folks can be so compassionate towards people with Cancer, Heart disease, or any chronic illness... yet so willing to dismiss one of the hardest diseases out there.  What I think people don't understand is just because they can't find cells, virus, bacteria or real physical evidence that it exsists.   And folks like that irritate me to no end.   And it is folks like that, that hinder progress in the fight for good mental health.   It is folks like that, that make folks with a true illness too ashamed to seek help.   It is folks like that, that stigmatize Mental illness as a choice.    

I use to work with schizophrenics.   That disease is absolutely horrible.  People don't chose to not bathe for weeks on end.   People don't chose to be chastized when they go out in public and start screaming or talking to no one there.   People don't chose not eat.   People don't chose to not sleep.  People don't chose not to get out of bed, or piss on themselves.    People don't chose torment.   People don't chose to be afraid of everything.   To suggest they do shows ignorance to understanding and compassion.


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## Tinktink (Jun 19, 2009)

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In the past they use to use lobatomies (sp), on mental ill folks.   Guess what their behavior completely changed.   Of course they basically became dreulers.    But that is one indication that it is a physical illness, not a emotional one.   The only reason you don't have dianostic proof is that it is too dangerous to go into the brain to find the problem and remove it.


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## manifold (Jun 19, 2009)

Wussitis is an emotional condition.


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## eots (Jun 19, 2009)

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the nobel prize was given for the lobotomy and when they developed neuroleptic drugs the where referred to as a chemical alternative to lobotomy ..that was less intrusive..but without question brain damaging ...your logic ids so flawed ...if you damage a perfectly healthy brain ..you will get a docile person ..this is no indication what so ever that mental illness is a organic brain disorder..and your statement that the reason there is no diagnostic evidence is because its to dangerous to examine the brain  is just something you made up..with no basis in science or fact


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## Tinktink (Jun 19, 2009)

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Actually it is your logic that is flawed.   Because you can't prove the brain that was Lobotomized was perfectly healthy.   Oh wait, why would someone win a Noble prize for Lobotimizing a perfect healthy brain?


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## eots (Jun 19, 2009)

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you have no knowledge of which you speak...ask any psychiatrist if there is any diagnostic test that can determine mental illness...they will reluctantly tell you...there is no such test


[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_0aNILW6ILk]YouTube - Lobotomy - PBS documentary, on Walter Freeman[/ame]


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## Tinktink (Jun 19, 2009)

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Huh?   I think I agreed with you on there being no "diagnostic" test.   I also think I pointed out why, considering the only one that ever attempted (which by the way you so graciously pointed out got a noble prize), failed. 
 because you can't explore the brain diagnositically.   Doesn't mean the disease isn't there.    

Now tell me fine sir/madam, why would someone win a Noble prize on Lobotomy?   And better yet, why did folks even attempt to use Lobotomies?   Oh wait could it be, because they didn't know how else to address mental illness....


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## eots (Jun 19, 2009)

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no once agin you make assupmtions without facts..it was voted on in congress to build and fund a psyco-therapy based mental health system or a medical based system and by a narrow vote heavily influnced by lobbist it iwas decided ...the selling point was ...length of hospital stays could be reduced on average by 3-4 weeks...another fact the majority of people in psychosis will come out of it without so called medication without the permanent brain damage caused by neuroleptic drugs..it simply cost more and takes more time...there are many studies and trails that have proven this but they are no longer funded due to drug company's


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## eots (Jun 19, 2009)

Effective Non-Neuroleptic Treatment

Treating schizophrenia without drugs? There's good evidence for it.  Comment: PsychMinded, by Tim Carlton, April 24, 2009.
http://psychrights.org/Research/Digest/Effective/effective.htm


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## Tinktink (Jun 19, 2009)

eots said:


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Why was anything voted on, or any Noble prizes given?  If mental illness isn't real?    Are you saying that those congressional votes, and noble prize winning events, were based on nothing?    If you can't see those very things you point out are proof that mental illness is real, then you have no argument.


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## Tinktink (Jun 19, 2009)

eots said:


> Effective Non-Neuroleptic Treatment
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> Treating schizophrenia without drugs? There's good evidence for it.  Comment: PsychMinded, by Tim Carlton, April 24, 2009.
> Effective non-medication or not exclusive medication treatment for psychosis



Once again links to studies that leaders of those studies want you to believe, because that is what they believe.    Anyone willing to do a study, can make any study work into what they believe.   

Some  Schizophrenics, commit their heinous acts (whether it be to themselve, their loved ones or strangers) do it when not drugged.   Explain that one to me.   Tell me why.   And I will shut up.


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## eots (Jun 19, 2009)

Tinktink said:


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> > Effective Non-Neuroleptic Treatment
> ...



another made up fact...many people with so called schizophrenia while on drugs. commit these acts....many times their condition worsens with drugs..*all* of the school shooters where on so called medications while planing their crimes..it states right on the label these drugs can *cause *suicidal and homicidal thoughts...fact


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## Tinktink (Jun 19, 2009)

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Wrong again.   Drugs don't heal the condition, they make the condition easier to live with.   They basically make folks (schizohprenics) larthargic.   School shooters weren't identified as Schizophrenics.   And read about the last one, he stopped his meds weeks before he committed the crime.


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## eots (Jun 19, 2009)

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i never said drugs heal anything and i said they planned thier crimes while on these drugs for a full year...even anti drug psychiatrist do not advise going of the drugs without a slow reduction...and it was not just combine *all *the school and mall shooters etc without exception where on psych -meds....the label warnings speak for themselves..this is not _my_ opinion


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## DamnYankee (Jun 19, 2009)

BaltimoreBob said:


> I think Mental Illness
> is when your like my ex and try to get away with too much shit in your life
> and then you depend on the Cowards of America to support you.
> To overlook her ways and realize she's not born with a Penis
> ...



"WTF" was that?


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## Cecilie1200 (Jun 19, 2009)

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Schizophrenia is inheritable, so it's at least partly medical.  Many mental illnesses are inheritable.

I should also point out that "emotional" does not in any way separate something from being physical as well, as though the two are somehow totally unrelated.  Your emotions are merely chemical reactions caused by hormones secreted by your glands, which is why mental and behavioral disorders can be affected by medication.


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## Cecilie1200 (Jun 19, 2009)

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Clinical depression is caused by a hormone imbalance in the brain.  Most times, it's caused by something traumatic in your life that triggers the imbalance (remember what I said earlier about emotions being chemical reactions and hormones) and then the body simply not being able to right itself.  Some people, though, are born with this defective ability to regulate their hormones.


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## Cecilie1200 (Jun 19, 2009)

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There's a big difference between feeling like shit because something bad happens and then getting over it, and feeling like shit for no reason and being unable to get over it.


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## Cecilie1200 (Jun 19, 2009)

eots said:


> there is no proof of any chemical imbalance that causes mental illness...none...it is a emotional/spiritual problem



Incorrect.

Serotonin definition - Depression Symptoms, Causes, and Treatments Including Clinical and Manic Depression on MedicineNet.com

Depression Causes, Treatment, Symptoms, Types and Diagnosis on MedicineNet.com

Modern medicine seems to have left you behind on this one.


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## Cecilie1200 (Jun 19, 2009)

ALLBizFR0M925 said:


> jgbkab said:
> 
> 
> > I believe some are medical and some are emotional. Nervous breakdown or depression = emotional. schizophrenia or psychosis...medical.
> ...



And not just neurotransmitters like serotonin, either.  Gynecology has known for quite a while that women experiencing imbalances in estrogen and progesterone due to a number of physical ailments (all of which are subject to diagnostic screening) have clinical depression as a symptom.  And we all know how the changes in body chemistry and hormones brought on by menstruation and pregnancy cause differences in a woman's moods and emotional state.

It's very silly and archaic for people to say "emotional/spiritual" as though emotions aren't physical in nature.


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## Father Time (Jun 19, 2009)

cec do you have any experience in mental health? I ask because you seem to be well-read in that area.


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## Cecilie1200 (Jun 19, 2009)

jgbkab said:


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I remember when clinical depression became a diagnosis in itself instead of being viewed as a symptom of a deeper psychological disorder.  When I started taking antidepressants for the first time, it was like I had been wearing sunglasses my entire life, and had taken them off and seen the world in full light for the first time.  I was 24.  Up until then, I had always worked as a secretarial temp because the occasional catatonic phases that would hit me made it impossible for me to take a regular full-time job, and temping allowed me to take a week or so off when I was unable to do anything but lie in bed and stare at the wall.  Because of the medication, I was able to get a regular job and work my way up from being a receptionist to being an administrative assistant, and I met and married my husband two years later.

Since the depression didn't respond to 24 years of counseling and therapy, and disappeared as though it had never existed after two weeks or so of medication (it takes time to build up in the system), I'm going to say the problem was physical, not spiritual.


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## Cecilie1200 (Jun 19, 2009)

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Gee, so we don't know everything about how the brain works and how it produces thought.  That must mean it isn't doing it.  

Last time I checked, there wasn't a definitive diagnostic test of any kind for the common cold, either.  It's diagnosed by categorizing the patient's symptoms.  Does that mean the common cold doesn't exist, either?  Or that it's not physical, and is just in everyone's head?


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## Cecilie1200 (Jun 19, 2009)

Father Time said:


> cec do you have any experience in mental health? I ask because you seem to be well-read in that area.



It runs in my family, and I myself was born with clinical depression.  My brain appears to simply be incapable of regulating the amount of serotonin present at any given moment without medication.

Of course there's no diagnostic test for chemical imbalances in the brain.  Can you imagine the expense and effort and risk involved in trying to measure such a thing?  That doesn't mean that medical science hasn't studied the effects of brain chemicals, though.  They had to to be able to come up with effective medications.  SSRIs wouldn't work if scientists hadn't found out what serotonin does (even as late as the 1970s and early 80s, they knew it existed, but had no clue what it did) and how it could be manipulated to treat depression.


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## eots (Jun 19, 2009)

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## Barb (Jun 19, 2009)

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Wouldn't the chemical imbalances present to manifest the illness also produce emotional reactions?


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## eots (Jun 19, 2009)

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> Father Time said:
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## Tinktink (Jun 19, 2009)

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## eots (Jun 19, 2009)

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## eots (Jun 19, 2009)

Initial Evaluation: County Designated Mental Health Professionals (DCMHP&#8217;s) are called upon to evaluate individuals with an alleged mental illness. The referral can be initiated by anyone who has first hand knowledge of the person and the presenting Problem. The CDMHP will evaluate an individual to determine if legal criteria for commitment as a result of a mental disorder are met. 

Legal Definition of "Mental Disorder": Any organic, mental, or emotional impairment that has substantial adverse effects upon an individual&#8217;s cognitive (thought) or volitional (action) behavior.


NON-EMERGENT INVOLUNTARY MEDICATION STATE BY STATE REPORT 

INVOLUNTARY MEDICATION BY PROCESS


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## eots (Jun 20, 2009)

I am not saying some people don't feel profoundly depressed or enter into states of psychosis ..I am saying that  so called medications are not the solution and in many ways do as much harm as good ..psychiatry is in the stone age and advances and funding are held back due to the billions of dollars involved in drugging people..these practices will seem as barbaric as lobotomy's in the not to distant future...a single dose  of neuroleptics can cause life long movement disorders especially in woman and should be the last resort..not the first option


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## eots (Jun 20, 2009)

Tardive dyskinesias (TDs) are involuntary movements of the tongue, lips, face, trunk, and extremities that occur in patients treated with long-term dopaminergic antagonist medications. Although they are associated with the use of neuroleptics, TDs apparently existed before the development of neuroleptics. People with schizophrenia appear especially vulnerable to developing TDs after exposure to conventional neuroleptics, anticholinergics, toxins, substances of abuse, and other agents. TDs are most common in patients with schizophrenia, schizoaffective disorder, or bipolar disorder who have been treated with antipsychotic medication for long periods, but TDs occasionally occur in other patients as well. For example, people with fetal alcohol syndrome, other developmental disabilities, and other brain disorders are vulnerable to the development of tardive dyskinesias, even after receiving a single dose of the causative agent

Tardive Dyskinesia: eMedicine Neurology


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## DamnYankee (Jun 20, 2009)

eots said:


> I am not saying some people don't feel profoundly depressed or enter into states of psychosis ..I am saying that  so called medications are not the solution and in many ways do as much harm as good ..psychiatry is in the stone age and advances and funding are held back due to the billions of dollars involved in drugging people..these practices will seem as barbaric as lobotomy's in the not to distant future...a single dose  of neuroleptics can cause life long movement disorders especially in woman and should be the last resort..not the first option



Obviously, you have your own personal experiences. You don't mind if the rest of world deals with theirs as they feel appropriate, do you?


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## eots (Jun 20, 2009)

ALLBizFR0M925 said:


> eots said:
> 
> 
> > I am not saying some people don't feel profoundly depressed or enter into states of psychosis ..I am saying that  so called medications are not the solution and in many ways do as much harm as good ..psychiatry is in the stone age and advances and funding are held back due to the billions of dollars involved in drugging people..these practices will seem as barbaric as lobotomy's in the not to distant future...a single dose  of neuroleptics can cause life long movement disorders especially in woman and should be the last resort..not the first option
> ...



my personal experience is helping individuals get out of hospital  and off medications because they where completely opposed to it and no informed consent given..if someone makes a decision from informed consent that is their choice...however anyone  who casually and carelessly prescribes these toxic brain and body disabling drugs or forces drugs on people..especially children is my nemesis...


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## DamnYankee (Jun 20, 2009)

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Okay, let's take a look at what you said for a minute. Wouldn't it be illogical to believe that one could be completely opposed to something that they had no knowledge of? And wouldn't it also be illogical to believe that there is undue force ESPECIALLY in the case of children when consent must be authorized by a legal guardian? Can't even give them a goddamned aspirin without that consent.


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## Cecilie1200 (Jun 20, 2009)

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## Cecilie1200 (Jun 20, 2009)

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## eots (Jun 20, 2009)

Unlike physical health problems and medical conditions, there are no laboratory tests such as blood and urine analyses or x-rays to assist practitioners to definitively diagnose mental illnesses. Instead, practitioners generally rely on listening carefully to patients' complaints and observing their behavior 

Diagnosing Disease: The Process of Detecting and Identifying Illness - Diagnosing Mental Illness



> Psychiatrists Admit: No Cures No Science 


> Psychiatry: No Cures No Science [4 mins] 


> [ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UHu7Ik36128]YouTube - CCHR on Psychiatry: No Science, No Cures[/ame] 


> Psychiatrists openly admitting at the 2006 APA convention 
> that they have no scientific tests to prove mental illness 
> and have no cures for these unproven mental illnesses. 



At least psychiatrists have medical degrees, but psychology is totally 
unscientific.  The problem is that mental 'illness' literally exists 
within the patient's head, so it is impossible to quantify, as is the 
'treatment.'  Other illnesses can be accurately diagnosed with x-rays, 
blood tests, or other diagnostic technologies, and the treatment's 
effectiveness can be quantified with the same technologies (e.g., an x- 
ray will reveal the tumor has shrunk, or a blood test will reveal that 
hemoglobin levels have returned to normal). 

When a patient sees a psychologist, there is no diagnostic test to 
determine what 'illness' he suffers from, if any at all.  And after 
countless hours of $500/hour psychotherapy, there is no diagnostic 
test to determine whether there has been any improvement in the 
patient's condition.  The patient might think he feels better, but it 
could be just a placebo effect.  In fact, people who seek various new 
age 'treatments' from astrology to herbalism to faith healing will 
swear they are effective, even though they are as unscientific as 
psychology. 

Psychiatrists admit - NO CURES NO SCIENCE - soc.culture.indian | Google Groups


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## eots (Jun 20, 2009)

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## RetiredGySgt (Jun 20, 2009)

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## asaratis (Jun 20, 2009)

Medical


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## Cecilie1200 (Jun 20, 2009)

eots said:


> Unlike physical health problems and medical conditions, there are no laboratory tests such as blood and urine analyses or x-rays to assist practitioners to definitively diagnose mental illnesses. Instead, practitioners generally rely on listening carefully to patients' complaints and observing their behavior
> 
> Diagnosing Disease: The Process of Detecting and Identifying Illness - Diagnosing Mental Illness
> 
> ...



And again, there are many things that do not have diagnostic tests.  Lack of tests does not equal non-existent.

Your ability to cherry-pick sources that preach the same sermon as you ALSO does not equal non-existence.  

My question is, what do you hope to achieve by sitting in here, telling a group of people who have been helped with mental and emotional disorders by medication that their illnesses didn't exist, they were just imagining it all, and that medication is worthless?  What do you hope to achieve by spreading that message to people who might still be suffering?


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## Cecilie1200 (Jun 20, 2009)

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## eots (Jun 20, 2009)

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## Barb (Jun 20, 2009)

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## RetiredGySgt (Jun 20, 2009)

I was not diabetic until 2000, 6 YEARS after it all went to shit. The depression lead to most of my weight gain.

And it was not TIME that helped me, it was finding the right meds, I went from having a voice in my head and daily suicidal thoughts with major depression to functioning nearly normal after a couple days from the med change.

And I see my therapist every Monday have since 2000.

You are an IGNORANT ASS Eots. You are going to get someone dead. But knowing you, you will then blame them for being "weak"

My weight is stable, my diet is fine. I gain weight when I quit functioning or like the last time take a trip in a car across the US and back.


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## eots (Jun 21, 2009)

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## eots (Jun 21, 2009)

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hM01_KZjWHw]YouTube - Fox News - Antipsychotics and Children[/ame]


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## DamnYankee (Jun 21, 2009)

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## editec (Jun 21, 2009)

I may not be able to prove mental illness, but I know it when I see it.


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## DamnYankee (Jun 21, 2009)

editec said:


> I may not be able to prove mental illness, but I know it when I see it.



Gonna be busy if you start pointing it out, aren't you?


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## editec (Jun 21, 2009)

ALLBizFR0M925 said:


> editec said:
> 
> 
> > I may not be able to prove mental illness, but I know it when I see it.
> ...


 
Speaking as pot, myself, calling kettles black really isn't really my thing.


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## DamnYankee (Jun 21, 2009)

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Well that's a relief....


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## editec (Jun 21, 2009)

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Yeah, I'd be _CRAZY_ to do that.


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## Tinktink (Jun 21, 2009)

eots said:


> Tardive dyskinesias (TDs) are involuntary movements of the tongue, lips, face, trunk, and extremities that occur in patients treated with long-term dopaminergic antagonist medications. Although they are associated with the use of neuroleptics, TDs apparently existed before the development of neuroleptics. People with schizophrenia appear especially vulnerable to developing TDs after exposure to conventional neuroleptics, anticholinergics, toxins, substances of abuse, and other agents. TDs are most common in patients with schizophrenia, schizoaffective disorder, or bipolar disorder who have been treated with antipsychotic medication for long periods, but TDs occasionally occur in other patients as well. For example, people with fetal alcohol syndrome, other developmental disabilities, and other brain disorders are vulnerable to the development of tardive dyskinesias, even after receiving a single dose of the causative agent
> 
> Tardive Dyskinesia: eMedicine Neurology



TD's do happen, yes they do.   However, most medical medications have side effects.   But the side effects are nothing compared to the actual disease.   

These folks you say you help, how did they get into the situation in the first place?   Because once again I ask how can they be involuntary committed unless they were a danger to themselves or others?   And in most cases they only keep you long enough to get you stable enough not to be so, then you are released.   Do you think that if involuntary committment were so easy to do, there would be as many mentally ill homeless folks?


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## eots (Jun 21, 2009)

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## Tinktink (Jun 21, 2009)

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## eots (Jun 21, 2009)

Tinktink said:


> eots said:
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> > Tardive dyskinesias (TDs) are involuntary movements of the tongue, lips, face, trunk, and extremities that occur in patients treated with long-term dopaminergic antagonist medications. Although they are associated with the use of neuroleptics, TDs apparently existed before the development of neuroleptics. People with schizophrenia appear especially vulnerable to developing TDs after exposure to conventional neuroleptics, anticholinergics, toxins, substances of abuse, and other agents. TDs are most common in patients with schizophrenia, schizoaffective disorder, or bipolar disorder who have been treated with antipsychotic medication for long periods, but TDs occasionally occur in other patients as well. For example, people with fetal alcohol syndrome, other developmental disabilities, and other brain disorders are vulnerable to the development of tardive dyskinesias, even after receiving a single dose of the causative agent
> ...



you are speaking out your ass ...with no real knowledge of what these medications are prescribed for...they don't take homeless people a mental institutions unless they have committed a serious crime or it is court ordered...they don't want people that are too much trouble....they don't want people without good insurance coverage and you have no real knowledge at all on what is required for involuntary commitment ...do you...honestly


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## eots (Jun 21, 2009)

INVOLUNTARY MEDICATION BY PROCESS


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## Tinktink (Jun 21, 2009)

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How easily you dismiss the fact that I lived with a schizophrenic, and realized how hard it was to even get him to a hospital for treatment, let alone committed.   You also forget that I mentioned I worked in a group home with schizophrenics.    And in order to do so had to understand the laws of commitment.   Now that I told you my little bit of knowledge regarding committment, please share yours, and answer my question.   The folks you ride in on your white horse to save, what did they do to get involuntary committment?    What law allowed that to happen to that, or what lack of law?    If you can't answer that question, I guess you are talking out your ass as much as I am.


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## Tinktink (Jun 21, 2009)

eots said:


> INVOLUNTARY MEDICATION BY PROCESS



All those speak of involuntary or judicial committment.   And of course if someone is committed due to attempt to harm themselves or others, there will be great possibility of medication requirement.  Why there is a reason, they attempted to take their lives, or attempted to violently  go after others.   That reason has to be treated.


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## eots (Jun 21, 2009)

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many of them have gone manic due to anti depressants and where acting out of sorts but posing no threat to anyone...police where called due to their odd behaviors and they where taken to a hospital and immediately forced to take toxic brain damaging drugs instead of ceasing the antidepressants...after 72 hrs a kangaroo court of a second opinion happens and they decide they are still not ready ,,and keep the for 2 more weeks...then there is another kangaroo court and they are kept for up to another 90 days etc  etc...if you have all this experience...why don't you even know the difference between a neuroleptic drug and a psychotropic drug ????.....or social path from sociopath ???
IM THE ONE CALLING....BULLSHIT


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## Tinktink (Jun 21, 2009)

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Once again you wrong.   In order to be medicated your very first time, you would have to have done someone to hurt someone or yourself, that is what you keep missing.   The cops won't take "John" to the hospital if he is sitting on his front porch arguing quite loudly, with the invisible "George" next to him.   But the cops will take "John" in if not only is John talking to George, John has a knife to his own throat.    Get the difference?   

I am now convinced you are a scientologist.   Just reading a lot of what you say and your evasiveness on what you do to get folks unmedicated.   And personally, I would rather not debate with someone who follows a cult based on outer space.   

I wish you luck in your mission, and I hope when it fails you don't find yourself committeed.


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## eots (Jun 21, 2009)

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## eots (Jun 21, 2009)

Antidepressant use soars as the recession bites 
Text size   
Jamie Doward
The Guardian
June 21, 2009

Fears the recession is affecting the mental health of the nation appear to be borne out by new figures that show prescriptions of antidepressants are soaring.Last year in England there were 2.1m more prescriptions of antidepressants than in 2007, leading to concerns that doctors are increasingly supplying the drugs as a &#8220;quick fix&#8221; without attempting to address the underlying cause of the problems. In total, 36m prescriptions were given out, an increase of 24% over the past five years.

&#8220;The increase in the number of people being prescribed antidepressants is deeply disturbing,&#8221; said the Liberal Democrats&#8217; health spokesman, Norman Lamb, who obtained the figures. &#8220;England has become a true Prozac nation.&#8221;

Lamb said it appeared the economy was a major factor in the increase. &#8220;The figures raise serious concerns over the impact of the current recession on people&#8217;s mental health,&#8221; he said. &#8220;Ministers have acted far too slowly to ensure that support is put in place to help people through these difficult times.&#8221;

Antidepressant use soars as the recession bites | Society | The Observer


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## Cecilie1200 (Jun 21, 2009)

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## Tinktink (Jun 21, 2009)

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## eots (Jun 21, 2009)

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## DamnYankee (Jun 21, 2009)

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And, still, you have failed to address any of the previous commentary. Your opinion is duly noted -- and filed.


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## eots (Jun 21, 2009)

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what commentary specifically is it not addressed ?


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## RetiredGySgt (Jun 21, 2009)

It is truly funny that you keep claiming people are not told of what the drugs do. Funny how EVERY time I fill a prescription the pharmacy gives me a read out on all know side effects interactions and general knowledge of each and every drug. It tells you what the drug is normally prescribed for, lists all known side effects and reminds you that you should discuss with your doctor the benefits versus the side effects and determine what is best for you.

Ohh and last I checked if your not IN a hospital NO ONE can force you to take your pills. And even inside you can refuse. Involuntary commitment REQUIRES a Judge to do so. Having been in a mental facility many times I know how it works.


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## eots (Jun 21, 2009)

RetiredGySgt said:


> It is truly funny that you keep claiming people are not told of what the drugs do. Funny how EVERY time I fill a prescription the pharmacy gives me a read out on all know side effects interactions and general knowledge of each and every drug. It tells you what the drug is normally prescribed for, lists all known side effects and reminds you that you should discuss with your doctor the benefits versus the side effects and determine what is best for you.
> 
> Ohh and last I checked if your not IN a hospital NO ONE can force you to take your pills. And even inside you can refuse. Involuntary commitment REQUIRES a Judge to do so. Having been in a mental facility many times I know how it works.



oh really....:


Once a patient has been involuntarily hospitalized, the patient can   also be involuntarily medicated without further process for up to 72   hours. However, the states statute requires an administrative review   to continue non-emergency medication for longer than the initial 72   hours. This process calls for the concurring opinion of a second. A   clinical review panel is employed for longer term involuntary    psychotropic medication. 

 If the patient is on a commitment order for 14 or 90 days, the    psychiatrist can administer involuntary antipsychotic  However, a court order is required for a person on a 180 day   order .



INVOLUNTARY MEDICATION BY PROCESS



[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o_iXApBeT5s]YouTube - Fox, Douglas Kennedy, Lilly pays $1.42 billion in Zyprexa suit[/ame]


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## Tinktink (Jun 21, 2009)

eots said:


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> 
> 
> > It is truly funny that you keep claiming people are not told of what the drugs do. Funny how EVERY time I fill a prescription the pharmacy gives me a read out on all know side effects interactions and general knowledge of each and every drug. It tells you what the drug is normally prescribed for, lists all known side effects and reminds you that you should discuss with your doctor the benefits versus the side effects and determine what is best for you.
> ...



Once again, the reason it is 72 and then evaluation is because when someone is involuntary committed they are in a Heigten state of their illness.   The 72 are required to make sure they are stable enough to return home.

I don't know why you conitinue to post that newsclip.   The only reason they lost that lawsuit was because they were promoting it for the wrong illness.


----------



## eots (Jun 21, 2009)

Tinktink said:


> eots said:
> 
> 
> > RetiredGySgt said:
> ...



how about you offer the  some narcotic sedation...that does not have the potential of life long movement disorder..or brain damage...allow them sometime..supply proper diet... discontinue antidepressant use to determine if it is a psychotropic drug induced mania.. do you understand that people more times than not will in a relatively short time emerge from psychosis  or mania without medication ?....before medications 60% of people that had a psychotic episode had only one in a lifetime....with medication that number has dropped to almost zero...and almost all patients relapse


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## eots (Jun 22, 2009)

and they may very well return home like this


[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nCfUsIPaLCs]YouTube - Abnormal Involuntary Movement Scale - Scoring (AIMSDVD.com)[/ame]

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kOW8LNU2hFE&feature=fvst]YouTube - Ex Drug Rep -- Manipulating Doctors[/ame]


----------



## Derek_Plumber (Jul 9, 2009)

President Barack Obama on Health Care​
"Well, I think it should be a right for every American. In a country as wealthy as ours, for us to have people who are going bankrupt because they can&#8217;t pay their medical bills--for my mother to die of cancer at the age of 53 and have to spend the last months of her life in the hospital room arguing with insurance companies because they&#8217;re saying that this may be a pre-existing condition and they don&#8217;t have to pay her treatment, there&#8217;s something fundamentally wrong about that." 

Source: 2008 second presidential debate against John McCain Oct 7, 2008


----------



## geauxtohell (Jul 9, 2009)

RetiredGySgt said:


> eots said:
> 
> 
> > RetiredGySgt said:
> ...



There is a lot of double talk that comes out of the anti-establishment crowd in regards to psychiatric medicine.

Of course there are not definitive tests.  I'd like to hear one person tell me how we would measure dopamine levels in the thalamus of a schizophrenic without killing them?

Psychiatric conditions are, by nature, clinical diagnosis.  That is not unique to the field, many medical conditions are clinically diagnosed (i.e. tetanus).  Since psychiatry deals with the brain, there are simply no tests that can be run that wouldn't put the patient at needless risk. 

This leads to clinical based medicine and a lot of experimenting with medications and patient feedback, which you experienced.  

It is patently false to say there is no medical evidence that suggest a definate pathology behind certain mental illnesses. 

Psychiatry is a relatively new field, and due to technology, is emerging.


----------



## geauxtohell (Jul 9, 2009)

eots said:


> Unlike physical health problems and medical conditions, there are no laboratory tests such as blood and urine analyses or x-rays to assist practitioners to definitively diagnose mental illnesses. Instead, practitioners generally rely on listening carefully to patients' complaints and observing their behavior



Have you ever heard of the "blood brain barrier"?  It's this thing that surrounds the CNS and provides a barrier from the blood and the brain.  Very few things cross it, so of course their is no blood test for chemicals in the brain (urine comes from blood so that's redundant).  You have to do a lumbar puncture (spinal tap) on someone when you think they have meningitis, because the WBCs remain in the CSF.  You can't do a WBC count by drawing blood peripherally. 

Again, you toss these facts around like they are automatic indictments.  It's not at all novel to people within the field or who study the body.  I've never heard a psychiatrist claim their practice was anything but clinical diagnoses.  That's the whole point behind the DSM IV.  As someone pointed out, that doesn't mean this is a static issue.  Just as cancer existed before X-Ray, CTs, ways to detect cellular markers, and MRIs.

Underlying the whole issue is this basic fact:  it's all good and fine to toss stones at the establishment, but you provide no realistic alternative to deal with a very real medical problem that has emotional symptoms.


----------



## geauxtohell (Jul 9, 2009)

Tinktink said:


> eots said:
> 
> 
> > Tardive dyskinesias (TDs) are involuntary movements of the tongue, lips, face, trunk, and extremities that occur in patients treated with long-term dopaminergic antagonist medications. Although they are associated with the use of neuroleptics, TDs apparently existed before the development of neuroleptics. People with schizophrenia appear especially vulnerable to developing TDs after exposure to conventional neuroleptics, anticholinergics, toxins, substances of abuse, and other agents. TDs are most common in patients with schizophrenia, schizoaffective disorder, or bipolar disorder who have been treated with antipsychotic medication for long periods, but TDs occasionally occur in other patients as well. For example, people with fetal alcohol syndrome, other developmental disabilities, and other brain disorders are vulnerable to the development of tardive dyskinesias, even after receiving a single dose of the causative agent
> ...



Essential tremor is a hallmark of Parkison's disease, which is caused by a lack of dopamine in the thalamus (funny how no one disputes that chemical imbalance). 

The current, best theory is that schizophrenia is caused by an over-abundance of dopamine in the thalamus.

So if you give schizophrenics a dopaminergic antagonists, and they develop a tremor, it would seem to support the notion that there is in fact a chemical imbalance in the thalamus.


----------



## eots (Jul 9, 2009)

THE DSM V..is not science..it is a collection of  subjective judgements and nothing more 


[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KcgYQfvjMD8]YouTube - Even Doctors Can't Describe ADD/ADHD[/ame]


----------



## AllieBaba (Jul 9, 2009)

*"The current, best theory is that schizophrenia is caused by an over-abundance of dopamine in the thalamus."*

That's a theory.

I've no problem with medicating medical illness, if it helps.
But as I've said over and over, hideously over-medicating the hopelessly insane is a waste of money, meds, and induces nothing but heartbreak and agony for the poor souls being experimented on.

I've seen it.


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## geauxtohell (Jul 9, 2009)

eots said:


> THE DSM V..is not science..it is a collection of  subjective judgements and nothing more
> 
> 
> YouTube - Even Doctors Can't Describe ADD/ADHD



Absurd.  You can insist that psychiatry isn't a legitimate brance of the medical sciences all you want, it's not changing a thing.

It also doesn't negate the fact that you have no workable alternative.

Niacin and vitamin C haven't been shown to have any therapeutic benefit when given in high doses to patients with mental illnesses.

As for people being forcefully committed, when a patient comes in (as more than a few of us medical students have experienced) and makes a direct threat towards their child or grandchild in front of staff or students, guess what?  There is no way in hell we are going to let them leave and hurt a child.  

Now that would be crazy.

They get to go and talk to behavioral health until a professional can figure out if they pose any harm to an innocent.


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## eots (Jul 9, 2009)

geauxtohell said:


> eots said:
> 
> 
> > THE DSM V..is not science..it is a collection of  subjective judgements and nothing more
> ...



someones so called  subjective professional opinion...to which an opposite opinion could be given from any number of other so called professionals


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## geauxtohell (Jul 9, 2009)

eots said:


> I see changes..



What changes?



> there are some very credible studies showing more effective recovery from even severe mental illness with limited or no medication..this statement is completely false



It is certainly not false that niacin and vitamin C have not been shown to provide any therapeautic relief to those suffering from mental illnesses.  That was discredited in 1973.

As for "limited or no medication", as I have pointed out to you, medicine is extremely critical of itself.  Virtually every scientific question is going to be asked and studied.  That doesn't equate to professional consensus.



> that does not justify forced medication or commitment and is not the bases for most commitments and such threats are criminal acts not medical issues



Sorry no.  You can't lock someone in jail for threatening their child.  That doesn't elevate to assault and/or battery and by the time social services gets involved, it might be too late.  

If you think that making a homicidal ideation towards a child is not, in itself, psychotic and thus not a mental issue, you are completely around the bend.

I will fully concede that people are committed who *should not* be committed.  I wonder if you are not so locked in your didactic thinking that you can concede that there are people who *should* be committed.  



> someones so called  subjective professional opinion...to which an opposite opinion could be given from any number of other so called professionals



Four years of medical school plus four years of residency makes your opinion a professional opinion, regardless of what you think of psychiatry.  

I know this is your pet issue, but they don't hand out the degree in a cracker-jack box.

Drs. disagree all the time, again that doesn't indict the entire field.  Anymore than cardiology is indicted when two Drs. have a difference of opinion.

I am still waiting for your workable alternative.  As best as I can tell, it's simply to not give medication to people.  Which basically puts us back in 1856.  

Also, since you are hung up on the lack of "labs" for psychiatric conditions, please propose a workable test that could be done for a patient suspected of having psychiatric condition that would not kill the patient.


----------



## eots (Jul 9, 2009)

geauxtohell said:


> eots said:
> 
> 
> > I see changes..
> ...





> > > Sorry no.  You can't lock someone in jail for threatening their child.  That doesn't elevate to assault and/or battery and by the time social services gets involved, it might be too late.
> >
> >
> >
> > If you think that making a homicidal ideation towards a child is not, in itself, psychotic and thus not a mental issue, you are completely around the bend.



sorry no making death threats is a crime..and this is a strawman argument




> I will fully concede that people are committed who *should not* be committed.  I wonder if you are not so locked in your didactic thinking that you can concede that there are people who *should* be committed.



yes






> someones so called  subjective professional opinion...to which an opposite opinion could be given from any number of other so called professionals





> Four years of medical school plus four years of residency makes your opinion a professional opinion, regardless of what you think of psychiatry.
> 
> I know this is your pet issue, but they don't hand out the degree in a cracker-jack box.



no they hand them out based on the ability to regurgitate the programed information
and the lack of abilty to complete Med school and be a real doctor




> Drs. disagree all the time, again that doesn't indict the entire field.  Anymore than cardiology is indicted when two Drs. have a difference of opinion.



but ultimately cardiac disorders are not theory and opinion but mental illness always is




> I am still waiting for your workable alternative.  As best as I can tell, it's simply to not give medication to people.  Which basically puts us back in 1856.



the statistics indicate that alone would be preferable for the vast majority but diet ,psychotherapy..time and sanctuary would be my advice





> Also, since you are hung up on the lack of "labs" for psychiatric conditions, please propose a workable test that could be done for a patient suspected of having psychiatric condition that would not kill the patient.


[/QUOTE]

I don't accept your theory of the medical model of so called mental illness and stop pretending you can prove mental illness with dangerous or intrusive test or show it in a cadaver,...because you cant


----------



## geauxtohell (Jul 10, 2009)

Point of order:  You've been posting here for a while.  Why does the quote function keep tripping you up?  If I misrepresent anything you've said, it's only because I am having a hard time wading through our jumbled quotes.



eots said:


> a growing awareness that so called medications can cause more harm than good ..that medications are in fact toxic brain damaging substances..that adhd is a fraud  many changes



Every medication has side effects.  The belief that they cause more harm than good is far from consensus.

I agree that ADHD is over diagnosed.  



> discredited by who.?.studies funded by pharmaceutical companies..lol



This is when it becomes a circular arguement.  I point out that vitamin claim has not been supported by science, and you alledge it's a for profit conspiracy.  This ignores the fact that there are a lot of brilliant scientists and Doctors who are not beholden to pharma.  

For your conspiracy to work, every single researcher in the health care profession has to be in the bag.  



> psychiatry is not science..as i have pointed out



Your opinion on the matter is not fiat.  The fact is that psychiatric medicine is considered a branch of the medical sciences and is, in fact, a required rotation for every medical student before they can become a doctor.  

Thus, you can say what you want.  The profession disagrees with you.  



> sorry no making death threats is a crime..and this is a strawman argument



Unless you are making the threats against officials, no it is not.  Sorry.  Feel free to cite the statute that would prove otherwise.  

This is not a strawman arguement, you are argueing against people being involuntarily committed, and I pointed out an instance of personal experience where I think any reasonable person would agree that it was necessary, if for no other reason than to protect an innocent.  

Now you don't want to acknowledge that.  Like I said, I admit that people are wrongfully committed, but you are so locked in your beliefs that you won't admit that some people should be committed.



> no they hand them out based on the ability to regurgitate the programed information
> and the lack of abilty to complete Med school and be a real doctor



What the hell are you talking about?  Psychiatrists complete medical school, pass all their boards, and go on to do a residency.  

Your opinion of whether they are "real doctors" is just that.  



> but ultimately cardiac disorders are not theory and opinion but mental illness always is



That's not true.  Not the first part, or the second.  There is no "theory of Schizophrenia".  Schizophrenia is a discrete diagnosis.  What is debatable is the etiology and pathology of it.  The etiology and pathology of many heart conditions is also debatable.  You just don't know that, because it's not your area of interest.  

If you doubt it, knock yourself out reading some of these abstracts:

Molecular Cardiology Research Institute - 2009 Publications




> I
> the statistics indicate that alone would be preferable for the vast majority but diet ,psychotherapy..time and sanctuary would be my advice



Your unqualified advice, but that is what I asked for (in fairness).  I agree that psychotherapy should be incorporated into psychiatric treatment.  There is no compelling evidence to support that diet or with holding pharmotherapy would improve the outcomes.  



> I don't accept your theory of the medical model of so called mental illness and stop pretending you can prove mental illness with dangerous or intrusive test or show it in a cadaver,...because you cant



You don't have to accept anything.  In the end, your opinion isn't going to swing professional consensus.  

I believe that one day we will have tests that will show an etiology behind mental illness.  You don't.  That's your perrogative.  However, in the end it's a matter of opinion.  You keep harping on something because you believe it is non-entity, not because you think it is non-practical (which is what most of us believe).  

Parkison's disease is not considered a "mental illness", but it is very much considered a chemical imbalance of the brain.  Would you agree with that?


----------



## Uknow_me72 (Jul 10, 2009)

How come everyone keeps forgetting the world was around before 1944.

The basic evolution theory states only the strong survive based on the Survival of the fittest law.

I some how think that with the 6k+ years of human history that this would be enough time and that natural selection would have taken course.

I don't think we would have gotten this far if a bunch of dee da dees were walking around then.

I have seen serious mental illness where people are pretty much brain dead not because the disagree with people or see and alternative view but because they had event such as blows to the head and injuries that cause it. _ this is a medical example.

The mental illness that I am sure the people are speaking on here is the one where they call others batshit crazy because their views do not align. These people do not need medication.

I think the issue here is people are worring to much about other people instead of themselves.


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## eots (Jul 10, 2009)

geauxtohell said:


> Point of order:  You've been posting here for a while.  Why does the quote function keep tripping you up?  If I misrepresent anything you've said, it's only because I am having a hard time wading through our jumbled quotes.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



not long ago you could of given your same argument to support  this..and what i believe is that your chemical lobotomy approach will in the not to distant future be deemed equally unsound and barbaric and destructive...any idiot could do a psychiatrist job with a few weeks of study..it is essentially a fraud....a handful of drugs handed out and some subjective observations and judgements...it is a joke


[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_0aNILW6ILk]YouTube - Lobotomy - PBS documentary, on Walter Freeman[/ame]

*
Neuroleptics and Chronic Mental Illness*


http://psychrights.org/research/Digest/Chronicity/NeurolepticResearch.htm


----------



## geauxtohell (Jul 10, 2009)

eots said:


> not long ago you could of given your same argument to support  this..and what i believe is that your chemical lobotomy approach will in the not to distant future be deemed equally unsound and barbaric and destructive...*any idiot could do a psychiatrist job with a few weeks of study..it is essentially a fraud....*a handful of drugs handed out and some subjective observations and judgements...it is a joke
> 
> 
> YouTube - Lobotomy - PBS documentary, on Walter Freeman
> ...



I've got to laugh at your bolded portion.  

Give me a break.  

Obviously you think you know more than the professionals, but no one is handing you (legally) a script pad anytime soon.

As for the "lobotomy", physicians used to drain people for "bad blood" too.  Misconceptions from the past don't equal the malpractice of the future.


----------



## eots (Jul 10, 2009)

geauxtohell said:


> eots said:
> 
> 
> > not long ago you could of given your same argument to support  this..and what i believe is that your chemical lobotomy approach will in the not to distant future be deemed equally unsound and barbaric and destructive...*any idiot could do a psychiatrist job with a few weeks of study..it is essentially a fraud....*a handful of drugs handed out and some subjective observations and judgements...it is a joke
> ...



laugh on but it is still true..I couldn't pass myself off as a research scientist involved in psychiatry... as far as private practice goes anyone could consult the DSM and write a script...no problem...and draining bad blood was acient history not the recent past..essentially neuroleptic drugs are a chemical lobotomy and was advertised as such before lobotomy's received such a bad image


----------



## eots (Jul 10, 2009)

people come out of psychotic episodes without medication..you do realize this don't you...relapse rates are higher amongst people that are medicated  than those not medicated and placebos are effective in a significant amount of people Even in severe psychosis. these are facts...and please tell me how on a cadaver one can show mental illness in the brain because in this case they is no concern of danger to the patient..it is deceitful to imply  no such evidence because test are too dangerous or intrusive...when in fact it is because no such test exsist...

PsychRights® Law Project for           

 Psychiatric Rights

Neuroleptics and Chronic Mental Illness

Neuroleptics and Chronic Mental Illness


----------



## eots (Jul 10, 2009)

The white cut: Egas Moniz, lobotomy, and the Nobel prize
In 1949 the Nobel prize was awarded to Egas Moniz, the neurologist who carried out the first lobotomy, a procedure that caused severe physical and psychological impairment. Seye Abimbola investigates the ongoing debate. 

The closest most medical students get to learning about lobotomy is during their psychiatry or possibly neurosurgery rotations, although there is more chance for those who do an elective in medical history. However, the story of Egas Moniz and lobotomy exemplifies some of the important events and contemporary issues of social relevance in the history of medicine. 


sBMJ | The white cut: Egas Moniz, lobotomy, and the Nobel prize

chemical lobotomy,


People's voices came through filtered, strange. They could not penetrate my Thorazine fog; and I could not escape my drug prison." - Janet Gotkin, testimony before the Senate Subcommittee on the Abuse and Misuse of Controlled Drugs in Institutions (1977)  

"It's very hard to describe the effects of this drug and others like it. That's why we use strange words like "zombie". But in my case the experience became sheer torture." - Wade Hudson, testimony before the Senate Subcommittee on the Abuse and Misuse of Controlled Drugs in Institutions (1977)  

"Frequent Effects: sedation, drowsiness, lethargy, difficult thinking, poor concentration, nightmares, emotional dullness, depression, despair . . ." - Dr. Calagari's Psychiatric Drugs (1987) 

In 1954 the neuroleptic drug, Thorazine, began flooding the state mental hospitals. The neuroleptics are synonymous with tranquilizers and antipsychotics. The neuroleptics are the drug most commonly given to schizophrenics. The psychiatrist would like us to believe that drugs such as Thorazine "cure" the patient by repairing or altering "bad" brain chemistry (whatever that means. . .). But the truth is the drug involves a strong dulling of the mind and emotional functions, and that this is what acts to inhibit or "push the symptoms into the back ground". According to Jerry Avon, M.D.:  


Thorazine - A Chemical Lobotomy - Permanent Brain Damage and Uses To Control People


----------



## nateriver (Jul 10, 2009)

Mental illness is a real medical condition. Too often is it easier to say someone has a mental issue and give a pill rather then give a hug or a boot in the backside ( which ever is needed)
By doing this makes it harder for the truely mental ill to get proper treatment or understanding from the general population.


----------



## geauxtohell (Jul 10, 2009)

eots said:


> geauxtohell said:
> 
> 
> > eots said:
> ...



Again:  to be a psychiatrist you have to complete medical school and residency.  That's eight years of post baccalaureate work.  All the things you've referenced are criminal acts, so it's absurd to claim that psychiatrist's are all coming out of some diploma mill or that anyone could do their job.  

If you are going to be dishonest about the little stuff, it makes it hard to lend you any credibility on larger issues.


----------



## eots (Jul 10, 2009)

geauxtohell said:


> eots said:
> 
> 
> > geauxtohell said:
> ...



anyone could read the DSM.. make some subjective observations and write a script from from what is basically a handful of drugs available,,,the education is only to give credibility where there is none,,,and it is you who is dishonest about the fact that definitive test are not done because they are too intrusive or dangerous when the fact is they do not exsist period....


----------



## xsited1 (Jul 10, 2009)

Tinktink said:


> Do you believe that mental illness is a



Liberal problem?  Yes.  Yes, it is.


----------



## eots (Jul 10, 2009)

xsited1 said:


> Tinktink said:
> 
> 
> > Do you believe that mental illness is a
> ...



the stats on that would be interesting...the save me big brother/soma city/ political correctness mentality...could well be a part of the problem


----------



## geauxtohell (Jul 10, 2009)

eots said:


> anyone could read the DSM.. make some subjective observations and write a script from from what is basically a handful of drugs available,,,the education is only to give credibility where there is none,,,and it is you who is dishonest about the fact that definitive test are not done because they are too intrusive or dangerous when the fact is they do not exsist period....



Anyone can read the "Pathological Basis of Disease" and write a script too.

Just not legally.  

I could be a millionaire overnight if the bank gave me the key.

Just not legally.

At least now you concede that it takes a little bit more than two weeks to be a psychiatrist.  

Like I said, if you are going to be dishonest in a small thing, you will be dishonest in a big thing.

I've addressed the lab issue.  You believe there is "no such thing as a chemical imbalance" in the brain.  Your perrogative, but not the professional consensus.


----------



## eots (Jul 10, 2009)

geauxtohell said:


> eots said:
> 
> 
> > anyone could read the DSM.. make some subjective observations and write a script from from what is basically a handful of drugs available,,,the education is only to give credibility where there is none,,,and it is you who is dishonest about the fact that definitive test are not done because they are too intrusive or dangerous when the fact is they do not exsist period....
> ...


----------



## AllieBaba (Jul 10, 2009)

geauxtohell said:


> eots said:
> 
> 
> > not long ago you could of given your same argument to support  this..and what i believe is that your chemical lobotomy approach will in the not to distant future be deemed equally unsound and barbaric and destructive...*any idiot could do a psychiatrist job with a few weeks of study..it is essentially a fraud....*a handful of drugs handed out and some subjective observations and judgements...it is a joke
> ...



No, but it does point out the weaknesses of science, and gullibility of those who follow it blindly.

Psychology is not a science. Psychiatry isn't either, for that matter.


----------



## AllieBaba (Jul 10, 2009)

eots said:


> geauxtohell said:
> 
> 
> > eots said:
> ...


----------



## Sky Dancer (Jul 10, 2009)

xsited1 said:


> Tinktink said:
> 
> 
> > Do you believe that mental illness is a
> ...



And its a conservative problem and a libertarian problem etc etc etc.  It's an equal opportunity kind of suffering.


----------



## geauxtohell (Jul 10, 2009)

eots said:


> not legal but regardless..it would be all too easy compared with being a medical doctor or a banker...



A psychiatrist _is_ a medical doctor.  When you graduate from medical school, the degree is called "M.D. (or D.O.)" for a reason.  

Once again you distort the facts.



> no you never addressed the lab issue you avoid it and were deceitful..so i will pose the question again...can one examine a cadaver and find proof of mental illness...yes or no ?



Yes.

Elsevier: Article Locator

There are also studies on the thalamus' of cadavers which show an abundance of Dopamine.


----------



## Sky Dancer (Jul 10, 2009)

AllieBaba said:


> geauxtohell said:
> 
> 
> > eots said:
> ...




Psychiatrists are medical doctors and they treat the conditions of bipolar disorder and schizophrenia both of which are prescribed medication as part of the treatment plan.  Both disorders affect brain chemistry.  

Psychologists are PHD's.


----------



## geauxtohell (Jul 10, 2009)

AllieBaba said:


> No, but it does point out the weaknesses of science, and gullibility of those who follow it blindly.
> 
> Psychology is not a science. Psychiatry isn't either, for that matter.



Your opinion is irrelevant.

The medical profession considers psychiatry to be a part of the medical sciences.

So much so that it is a required rotation for every medical student in their third year.


----------



## AllieBaba (Jul 10, 2009)

Sky Dancer said:


> AllieBaba said:
> 
> 
> > geauxtohell said:
> ...



Neither of which makes psychiatry or psychology a science.


----------



## eots (Jul 10, 2009)

Sky Dancer said:


> xsited1 said:
> 
> 
> > Tinktink said:
> ...



seriously I do think the DSM approach of defining any kind of of anti-social behaviors and personality as an illness is something that the PC mentality would find far more acceptable

DSM Code List of all Psychiatric Disorders at ALLPSYCH Online


----------



## AllieBaba (Jul 10, 2009)

geauxtohell said:


> AllieBaba said:
> 
> 
> > No, but it does point out the weaknesses of science, and gullibility of those who follow it blindly.
> ...



You are a fucking, kool-aid gobbling buffoon.

"A questionnaire on attitudes toward psychiatry was submitted to French medical students in their first year of specialized training in psychiatry or in another medical specialty. *The findings do not differ from those of previous United States investigations. In France, although psychiatry is a full medical specialty, psychiatrists are perceived as different from other physicians. Both groups of students believed that psychiatric treatment is efficacious but remained unsure of its scientific value."*
French medical students' opinion of psychiatry -- Samuel-Lajeunesse and Ichou 142 (12): 1462 -- Am J Psychiatry

^pwned.


----------



## geauxtohell (Jul 10, 2009)

AllieBaba said:


> Neither of which makes psychiatry or psychology a science.



LMAO.

But your un-varnished opinion is worth so much more on this issue?

Get real.


----------



## AllieBaba (Jul 10, 2009)

BTW, that excerpt is from the American Journal of Psychiatry.


----------



## eots (Jul 10, 2009)

geauxtohell said:


> AllieBaba said:
> 
> 
> > Neither of which makes psychiatry or psychology a science.
> ...



 AllieBaba can answer a simple and direct question honestly..unlike yourself


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## AllieBaba (Jul 10, 2009)

Psychiatry: No Science, No Cures


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## AllieBaba (Jul 10, 2009)

eots said:


> geauxtohell said:
> 
> 
> > AllieBaba said:
> ...



I thought my opinion was irrelevant.

However, it's not my opinion only.


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## eots (Jul 10, 2009)

AllieBaba said:


> BTW, that excerpt is from the American Journal of Psychiatry.



hey have some compassion these well meaning poor chumps sink years of their life and loads of money to learn this pseudoscience..they may have children ..big loans to pay ..mortgages..their elitist self image to protect..where would they be if they did not perpetuate the fraud ?


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## eots (Jul 10, 2009)

AllieBaba said:


> eots said:
> 
> 
> > geauxtohell said:
> ...



you seem to have nailed it...


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## AllieBaba (Jul 10, 2009)

"The journal Science (31 Oct 2003, pp.808-810) discussed the need for a revision of psychiatry's Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental  Disorders. The discussion was based upon a book titled A Research Agenda for DSM-V (ISBN 0-89042-292-3) published by the American Psychiatric Association."

"....DSM-IV-TR, is unsatisfactory as a diagnostic tool. This DSM yields diagnoses that are dependably repeatable, but are, for the most part, *meaningless as to the cause of the disorder*. *The various diagnosed disorders do not connect with our rapidly expanding knowledge of what is going on physiologically within the brain.* It is this fact that has evidently alarmed psychiatrists into admitting the limitations of psychiatry as currently practiced."

"For a particular disorder, some 20 to 50% of patients may fail to meet the required diagnostic symptom count and so are categorized as "not otherwise specified" (NOS). *These are ignored in experimental trials, even though the patient may clearly be suffering from some of the symptoms of a well-known disorder*. Insurance companies pay for NOS treatment, but it is evident that psychiatric diagnoses today do not deal with all of the subtleties of mental disorders."

Science Discusses Psychiatry


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## AllieBaba (Jul 10, 2009)

eots said:


> AllieBaba said:
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> > BTW, that excerpt is from the American Journal of Psychiatry.
> ...



Did you watch that clip? It's hilarious.


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## eots (Jul 10, 2009)

AllieBaba said:


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good stuff..thanks


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## geauxtohell (Jul 10, 2009)

AllieBaba said:


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This has appparently gone over your head like a tent.  

Psychiatry is considered integral to a basic medical science education and in order to get the degree "Medical Doctor", as determined by the powers that be, you have to do rotations in the following disciplines in your third year:

internal medicine, OB/GYN, pediatrics, general surgery, and psychiatry at every Medical School in the United States.  (There are additional clerkships (family medicine, nueurology, etc), but they vary by school.)

Furthermore, nothing in the article you linked comes even close to your assertion that psychiatry is not a science.

Perhaps your reading comprehension isn't up to snuff.


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## eots (Jul 10, 2009)

geauxtohell said:


> AllieBaba said:
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## geauxtohell (Jul 10, 2009)

eots said:


> AllieBaba can answer a simple and direct question honestly..unlike yourself



Kind of like how your ignored my cadaver study (or anything else that challenges your paradigm)?


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## geauxtohell (Jul 10, 2009)

eots said:


> big deal..you walk around with a doctor on his rounds..listen to him talk to a drugged out patient for 5 mins...wow...dont pretend anything occurs in a mental hospital but drugging and confinment and some blood test...



Yeah, we've established that you think western medicine is a bunch of shit.  Again, your perrogative.

My point is that a psychiatric rotation is required to receive the "M.D." degree, which challenges your contentions that it's not a legitimate field of the basic medical sciences.  



> > Furthermore, nothing in the article you linked comes even close to your assertion that psychiatry is not a science.
> >
> > Perhaps your reading comprehension isn't up to snuff
> 
> ...



Which doesn't approach "felt it had no scientific value".

Furthermore, the survey is from Medical Students (or first year residents) who are just beginning their profession.  I wouldn't expect them to have a large perspective on the entire medical field.


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## eots (Jul 10, 2009)

geauxtohell said:


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what cadaver study ???


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## eots (Jul 10, 2009)

you posted no such study...you posted this




> Elsevier: Article Locator
> 
> There are also studies on the thalamus' of cadavers which show an abundance of Dopamine.



which does no equate to what you claim it does...just another attempt at self deception


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## eots (Jul 10, 2009)

Conclusions
This study *suggests* that decreases in hippocampal [3H]pirenzepine binding in subjects with schizophrenia are *most likely* associated with widespread changes in expression levels of the M4 receptor. These data further implicate the hippocampal formation in the pathology of schizophrenia

Elsevier


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## geauxtohell (Jul 10, 2009)

eots said:


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The one I linked in this post:

http://www.usmessageboard.com/1332089-post165.html

That you obviously didn't bother to read.


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## eots (Jul 10, 2009)

geauxtohell said:


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ya I read it and posted its conclusion..maybe you need to read it...


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## eots (Jul 10, 2009)

The diagnosis of mental disorders is often believed to be more difficult than diagnosis of somatic, or general medical, disorders,* since there is no definitive lesion, laboratory test, or abnormality in brain tissue that can identify the illness. The diagnosis of mental disorders must rest with the patients&#8217; reports of the intensity and duration of symptoms,* signs from their mental status examination, and clinician observation of their behavior including functional impairment. These clues are grouped together by the clinician into recognizable patterns known as syndromes. When the syndrome meets all the criteria for a diagnosis, it constitutes a mental disorder.

Mental Health: A Report of the Surgeon General - Chapter 2


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## AllieBaba (Jul 10, 2009)

Psychiatrists...respected scientists.

"Have you ever cured a patient?"

"Duh...uh...wuh....mmm...hehehe.....well let me.......hmm..."


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## AllieBaba (Jul 10, 2009)

My niece just finished her 3rd year of medical school.

She said the time at the psych hospital was #1, the easiest because it doesn't require any but the fuzziest of diagnoses, and #2, it's just interacting with crazy people.

So tell me how that makes psychiatry a science. Any more than the time they spend in ERs signifies that applying pressure to wounds is science.


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## eots (Jul 10, 2009)

eots said:


> The diagnosis of mental disorders is often believed to be more difficult than diagnosis of somatic, or general medical, disorders,* since there is no definitive lesion, laboratory test, or abnormality in brain tissue that can identify the illness. The diagnosis of mental disorders must rest with the patients&#8217; reports of the intensity and duration of symptoms,* signs from their mental status examination, and clinician observation of their behavior including functional impairment. These clues are grouped together by the clinician into recognizable patterns known as syndromes. When the syndrome meets all the criteria for a diagnosis, it constitutes a mental disorder.
> 
> Mental Health: A Report of the Surgeon General - Chapter 2



perhaps you should inform the surgeon general of your test for mental illness you claimed exsist ...seeing as your so big on the medical consensus of....opinion...you are clearly not stupid so that leads me to conclude in your hubris you felt the need to intentional attempt to be deceptive..a disorder many in the field of psychiatry seem suffer from


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## Sky Dancer (Jul 10, 2009)

AllieBaba said:


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Medicine involves science.  Medical doctors study science intensively including psychatrists.  Psychiatrists are medical doctors who specialize in the mind and concern themselves with the nervous system.

PTSD for example, is being widely studied on the level of brain function.


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## Sky Dancer (Jul 10, 2009)

AllieBaba said:


> My niece just finished her 3rd year of medical school.
> 
> She said the time at the psych hospital was #1, the easiest because it doesn't require any but the fuzziest of diagnoses, and #2, it's just interacting with crazy people.
> 
> So tell me how that makes psychiatry a science. Any more than the time they spend in ERs signifies that applying pressure to wounds is science.




You base your opinion on one medical students opinion.   How scientific of you!

Let me ask you this.  Is the suffering that someone afflicted with mental illness less than the suffering of physical illness?

IMO suffering is suffering.

Since you like anecdotes so much, I offer you one from someone I know.  He went to study with Mother Teresa.  She sent him back to America and said that the suffering of in  in America is far greater than the suffering in India.

She was referring specifically to the suffering of mental illness.


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## Neubarth (Jul 11, 2009)

The serious mental illnesses are genetic.  Paranoia, Schizophrenia, Manic Deppressive disorder all run in families and are usually passed down through the female, just like other genetic illnesses. If we could run tests, we could identify the females who are capable of passing mental illness along, and have them sterilized so they can not keep adding to the defective gene pool.

Of course when I brought up this eugenics suggestion at a major university years ago, I was quickly interrupted by a senior professor who informed me and the audience that if we did that, we would prevent the birth of nearly 60% of the geniuses in this country.  He was quite adament that genius and insanity are, indeed, linked.  My father always used to tell me that Genius is kin to Insanity.


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## eots (Jul 11, 2009)

Neubarth said:


> The serious mental illnesses are genetic.  Paranoia, Schizophrenia, Manic Deppressive disorder all run in families and are usually passed down through the female, just like other genetic illnesses. If we could run tests, we could identify the females who are capable of passing mental illness along, and have them sterilized so they can not keep adding to the defective gene pool.
> 
> Of course when I brought up this eugenics suggestion at a major university years ago, I was quickly interrupted by a senior professor who informed me and the audience that if we did that, we would prevent the birth of nearly 60% of the geniuses in this country.  He was quite adament that genius and insanity are, indeed, linked.  My father always used to tell me that Genius is kin to Insanity.



you have no clue what your talking about..there is no proof of mental illness being genetic...it is a theory and nothing more....


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## eots (Jul 11, 2009)

Sky Dancer said:


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where do you get this shit ?..the study of the nervous system is neurology ..not psychiatry..lol


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## eots (Jul 11, 2009)

Sky Dancer said:


> AllieBaba said:
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> > My niece just finished her 3rd year of medical school.
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so ?..who said suffering is not real ? but damaging the brain with toxins is not the answer to suffering...funny you should mention India


Culture and Mental Illness

Shankar Vedantam
Washington Post staff writer
Tuesday, June 28, 2005; 12:00 PM

What role does culture play in diagnosing and treating mental illness? In many poorer nations, social networks are a critical part of healing and recovery as patients continue to participate in society rather than becoming isolated, as is often the case in more developed nations. In the United States, some racial groups are more frequently diagnosed with schizophrenia than others, suggesting some sort of bias in the detection of such illnesses. This new information suggests a powerful link between societal factors and the diagnosis, treatment and outcome of mental illness.


Culture and Mental Illness


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## geauxtohell (Jul 11, 2009)

eots said:


> Conclusions
> This study *suggests* that decreases in hippocampal [3H]pirenzepine binding in subjects with schizophrenia are *most likely* associated with widespread changes in expression levels of the M4 receptor. These data further implicate the hippocampal formation in the pathology of schizophrenia
> 
> Elsevier



You haven't read many scientific papers have you?  Vague wording in conclusions are the norm.  

At any rate, you asked for any cadaver study that provided evidence that there was a pathophysiology to psychiatry, and I provided it for you after a whopping three second google search.



> The diagnosis of mental disorders is often believed to be more difficult than diagnosis of somatic, or general medical, disorders, since there is no definitive lesion, laboratory test, or abnormality in brain tissue that can identify the illness. The diagnosis of mental disorders must rest with the patients reports of the intensity and duration of symptoms, signs from their mental status examination, and clinician observation of their behavior including functional impairment. These clues are grouped together by the clinician into recognizable patterns known as syndromes. When the syndrome meets all the criteria for a diagnosis, it constitutes a mental disorder.
> 
> Mental Health: A Report of the Surgeon General - Chapter 2



Once again, I have already told you that psychiatry deals entirely in clinical diagnosis due to the fact that there are no tests currently available to provide a lab value for the diagnosis.  I have never met a psychiatrist (BTW, I am not a psychiatrist) who has stated otherwise.

This quote says exactly what I have stated.

Again, I have never claimed that there is a workable test and safe test that psychiatry can use to make a diagnosis.  You have either misunderstood me or are misrepresenting my words when you claim I have.  Furthermore, I also agree that the pathophysiology of even the most discrete of conditions (i.e. schizophrenia) has not been fully established.

Where we differ is that you don't think it is possible to discern a pathophysiology or establish a test at some point in the future, and I do. 

Again, your fundamental problem is that you are only content to point out holes in psychiatry without offering any workable alternative.  When pressed for an alternative, you can only resort to anecdotes and personal opinion, none of which has ever met any sort of scientific scrutiny (while constantly bitching about how psychiatry is not "science").  This is somewhat akin to the people that argue against evolution by pointing out its flaws without offering any scientifically workable counter-proposals.  

Finally, if you think psychiatrists don't study the CNS or that the study of the brain is limited to the field of neurology, you are clueless.  

In fact, I provided (and you read) one such study on this thread.  Though, I have noticed that you simply ignore items that are inconvenient for your.


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## eots (Jul 11, 2009)

geauxtohell said:


> eots said:
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> > Conclusions
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> Once again, I have already told you that psychiatry deals entirely in clinical diagnosis due to the fact that there are no tests currently available to provide a lab value for the diagnosis.  I have never met a psychiatrist (BTW, I am not a psychiatrist) who has stated otherwise.



no they like to imply it...or claim that the test would be too costly ..dangerous or intrusive..instead of simply stating ...no such test exist..period



> This quote says exactly what I have stated.





> > *Again, I have never claimed that there is a workable test and safe test that psychiatry can use to make a diagnosis.  You have either misunderstood me or are misrepresenting my words when you claim I have.  Furthermore, I also agree that the pathophysiology of even the most discrete of conditions (i.e. schizophrenia) has not been fully established.[/*QUOTE]
> 
> 
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## geauxtohell (Jul 11, 2009)

eots said:


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## eots (Jul 11, 2009)

geauxtohell said:


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## geauxtohell (Jul 11, 2009)

eots said:


> not at all...



Thanks.  It was getting a little tedious.

I'll get around to responding to your last at a later time/date.


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## 52ndStreet (Jul 13, 2009)

Homosexuality, is a form of mental ilness. But the rich powerfull Homo's had it removed from the 
American Psychiatrics associations list of known mental ilnesses.


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## eots (Jul 13, 2009)

52ndStreet said:


> Homosexuality, is a form of mental ilness. But the rich powerfull Homo's had it removed from the
> American Psychiatrics associations list of known mental ilnesses.



I also became aware many years ago that the diagnosis, like changes in clothing fashions, changed with the prevailing attitude toward this condition. Thus, in the early 1950's psychiatrists under the sway of psychoanalysis would not diagnose it unless there was evidence of latent homosexuality. I remember that at one clinical conference the psychiatrist presenting the case had diagnosed the patient schizophrenic and then added that he was homosexual. During the discussion I asked him whether in fact his patient had ever actually been homosexual. He replied that he had not, but he added he must be a latent homosexual since Freud had declared that this was the basis for paranoid schizophrenia. 

Hoffer's Home Page


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## RetiredGySgt (Jul 13, 2009)

eots said:


> Neubarth said:
> 
> 
> > The serious mental illnesses are genetic.  Paranoia, Schizophrenia, Manic Deppressive disorder all run in families and are usually passed down through the female, just like other genetic illnesses. If we could run tests, we could identify the females who are capable of passing mental illness along, and have them sterilized so they can not keep adding to the defective gene pool.
> ...



Ya except in my family there is proof, My Father had similar problems to me just not as severe, his Mother had them as well. I have them and my sister have them. So much for your bullshit claim, AGAIN.


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## KittenKoder (Jul 13, 2009)

RetiredGySgt said:


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That's circumstantial evidence, not proof.


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## RetiredGySgt (Jul 13, 2009)

KittenKoder said:


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Sure thing, Eots claims there is no evidence that it is hereditary And the Medical field disagrees with him as does MY experience and my family. But you go on record support the nut job all you want.


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## KittenKoder (Jul 13, 2009)

RetiredGySgt said:


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No, he said there is no proof, and there is no proof. There is nothing but circumstantial evidence, the same circumstantial evidence that was used to shoved pills down my throat as a child and actually fuck up my brain. My mother had a mental illness ... so according to morons they thought I had it ... well, thanks to those meds, now I actually do, it's just not even close to what my mother had.


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## eots (Jul 13, 2009)

RetiredGySgt said:


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the truth is the medical community does not unanimously agree on the subject and your so called medical community not to long ago held the common belief mental illness was a sign of latent homosexuality and supported lobotomys..even awarded it the Nobel prize


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## RetiredGySgt (Jul 13, 2009)

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So now you do not support science? Thanks for clearing that up.


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## eots (Jul 13, 2009)

RetiredGySgt said:


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so you are a latent homosexual that needs a lobotomy...thanks for clearing that up...LOL


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## RetiredGySgt (Jul 13, 2009)

eots said:


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Dumb ass, I recall you arguing in other threads that science revises its self as it learns more, now you are whining cause it works, go figure.


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## eots (Jul 13, 2009)

RetiredGySgt said:


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well  being drugged instead of being labeled a latent homo and getting a ice pick in the brain is a step forward..I will concede that much..but with your attitude we would still be there


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## RetiredGySgt (Jul 13, 2009)

eots said:


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No with your attitude the MILLIONS that drugs help would be without any help. They would be locked up, dead or so miserable they wished they were dead. You oppose progress not I.


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## eots (Jul 13, 2009)

RetiredGySgt said:


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oh nonsense...instead of millions being given a life sentence of drugs..more money and research into non-drug therapy's would be employed and use of drugs would be only as a last option and  for short term...and dont pretend that the streets are not full of people suffering and no better or worse off than 1950..or that the drugging of the populace is wholesale and out of control....why has mental illness  increased every year since the use of these drugs has become common place ?


Hoffer's Home Page


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## eots (Jul 13, 2009)

State Puzzled By Increase in Child Hospitalization Rate 
Mark Moran 
As hospitalization rates for children and adolescents with mental illness set new records in the state of Washington, experts try to understand why.

Mental illness is now the leading cause of hospitalization among children and adolescents in Washington state, according to a recent study of admission figures by researchers at the University of Washington

State Puzzled By Increase in Child Hospitalization Rate -- Moran 37 (12): 15 -- Psychiatr News


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