# Islam forbids



## Mr.Fitnah (Jul 14, 2009)

Islam forbids the killing of innocent people"
Please provide scripture to proves unequivocally non muslims are innocent
Shirk is worse than Killing 



Since Jihad involves killing and shedding the blood of men, Allah indicated that these men are committing disbelief in Allah, associating with Him (in the worship) and hindering from His path, and this is a much greater evil and more disastrous than killing. Abu Malik commented about what Allah said:

(And Al-Fitnah is worse than killing.) Meaning what you (disbelievers) are committing is much worse than killing.'' Abu Al-`Aliyah, Mujahid, Sa`id bin Jubayr,`Ikrimah, Al-Hasan, Qatadah, Ad-Dahhak and Ar-Rabi` bin Anas said that what Allah said:
(And Al-Fitnah is worse than killing.) "Shirk (polytheism) is worse than killing.''

2:191. 
And kill them wherever you find them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out. And Al-Fitnah[] is worse than killing. And fight not with them at Al-Masjid-al-Harâm (the sanctuary at Makkah),[] unless they (first) fight you there. But if they attack you, then kill them. Such is the recompense of the disbelievers. 
2:192. 
But if they cease, then Allâh is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful. 
2:193. 
And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allâh) and (all and every kind of) worship is for Allâh (Alone).[] But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against Az-Zâlimûn (the polytheists, and wrong-doers, etc.) 
no transgression except against 
no transgression except against 
no transgression except against 
no transgression except against 
no transgression except against 
2:194. 
The sacred month is for the sacred month, and for the prohibited things, there is the Law of Equality (Qisâs). Then whoever transgresses the prohibition against you, you transgress likewise against him. And fear Allâh, and know that Allâh is with Al-Muttaqûn (the pious - see V.2:2). 
2:195. 
And spend in the Cause of Allâh (i.e. Jihâd of all kinds, etc.) and do not throw yourselves into destruction (by not spending your wealth in the Cause of Allâh), and do good. Truly, Allâh loves Al-Muhsinûn[](the good-doers).


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## JenT (Jul 14, 2009)

This reminds me of the claim that Islam is for peace, but nobody mentions that peace is believed to be when all the world is Islam.


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## Mr Ripley (Jul 14, 2009)

Muslims fight with each other when they run out of infidels to attack.


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## Mr.Fitnah (Jul 14, 2009)

Mr Ripley said:


> Muslims fight with each other when they run out of infidels to attack.



That is not arbitrary , Straightening out muslims is so they can kill non  muslims is a primary goal of fundamental muslims  many muslims fail to undertake their obligations 

COMMANDING THE RIGHT AND FORBIDDING THE WRONG

From the Reliance of the Traveller (Book Q)

[The Reliance of the Traveller is a book every English-speaking Muslim should have, even if they are not Shafi`i, because it contains much that is necessary for every morally responsible person to know]

q0.0 INTRODUCTION

q0.1 (n: The discussion and analysis that follow are Imam Ghazali's, edited by the Hanbali scholar Ibn Qudama Maqdisi from an earlier abridgement of Ghazali's Ihya' `ulum al-din by `Abd al-Rahman ibn Jawzi, which Maqdisi shortened to a single volume whose conciseness, if less vivid than the Ihya', better lends itself to the purpose of the present section, which is to discuss the practical implications of an important aspect of Scared Law.)

q0.2 (Ibn Qudama Maqdisi One should know that commanding the right and forbidding the wrong is the most important fundamental of the religion, and is the mission that Allah sent the prophets to fulfill. If it were folded up and put away, religion itself would vanish, dissolution appear, and whole lands come to ruin.


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## Mr.Fitnah (Jul 14, 2009)

q1.0 THE OBLIGATION TO COMMAND THE RIGHT

q1.1 Allah Most High says,

``Let there be a group of you who call to good, commanding the right and forbidding the wrong, for those are the successful'' (Koran 3:104).

This verse explains that commanding the right and forbidding the wrong re a communal rather than a personal obligation (dis: c3.2), for He says, ``Let there be a group of you...''and not, ``All of you command the right.'' So if enough people do it (A: meaning that whenever a wrong is seen, one of those who see it corrects it), the responsibility is lifted from the rest, those who perform it being expressly mentioned as the successful. There are many verses in the Holy Koran about commanding the right and forbidding the wrong.

q1.2 The Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) said:

"Those who keep within Allah's limits and those who transgress them or allow them to be compromised may be compared to people on a ship, some of whom must stay below deck in the hardest and worst place, while others get passage above. When those below need water, they pass through those on the upper deck, injuring and annoying them until those below reflect, 'If we were to stave a hole in the hull we could get water without troubling those above. 'Were those above deck to leave those below to themselves, all would be destroyed, while if they were to help them, all would be saved."

"Whoever of you sees something wrong, let him change it with his hand. If unable to, then let him change it with his tongue. If unable, then with his heart. And that is the weakest degree of faith."

"The best jihad is speaking the truth to an unjust ruler."

"When you see my Community too intimidated by an oppressor to tell him, 'You are a tyrant,' then you may as well say good by to them."

"Command the right and forbid the wrong, or Allah will put the worst of you in charge of the best of you, and the best will supplicate Allah and be left unanswered."

q1.3 Abu Bakr (Allah be well pleased with him) rose from his place, and after having praised Allah Most High, said, "O people: you recite the verse,

"'O you who believe: you are responsible for yourselves; those who go astray will not harm you if you are guided' (Koran 5:105),"

while we have heard the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him and give him peace) say,

"'People who do not change something wrong when they see it are on the verge of a sweeping punishment from Allah.'"


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## Mr.Fitnah (Jul 14, 2009)

From the Noble Quran ,
( The best translation IMO do to the fact it does not attmpt  to translate words that cannot be directly translated  there for avoiding imparting bias )
9:111. Verily, Allâh has purchased of the believers their lives and their properties; for the price that theirs shall be the Paradise. They fight in Allâh's Cause, so they kill (others) and are killed. It is a promise in truth which is binding on Him in the Taurât (Torah) and the Injeel (Gospel) and the Qur'ân. And who is truer to his covenant than Allâh? Then rejoice in the bargain which you have concluded. That is the supreme success[].

9:112. (The believers whose lives Allâh has purchased are) those who repent to Allâh (from polytheism and hypocrisy, etc.), who worship Him, who praise Him, who fast (or go out in Allâh's Cause), who bow down (in prayer), who prostrate themselves (in prayer), who enjoin (people) for Al-Ma'rûf (i.e. Islâmic Monotheism and all what Islâm has ordained) and forbid (people) from Al-Munkar (i.e. disbelief, polytheism of all kinds and all that Islâm has forbidden), and who observe the limits set by Allâh (do all that Allâh has ordained and abstain from all kinds of sins and evil deeds which Allâh has forbidden). And give glad tidings to the believers


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## Mr.Fitnah (Jul 14, 2009)

q2.0 WHO MAY COMMAND THE RIGHT AND FORBID THE WRONG
LEGAL RESPONSIBILITY

q2.1 There are four integrals (def: q2-5) in commanding the right and forbidding the wrong, the first of which is that the person doing so be legally responsible (def: c8.1), Muslim, and able to, these being the conditions for it to be obligatory, though a child of the age of discrimination (def: f1.2) who condemns something dishonorable is rewarded for doing so, even if it is not obligatory for him to.

MORAL RECTITUDE IS NOT A CONDITION

q2.2 As for requirements of moral rectitude in the person giving the reprimand, some scholars take this into consideration and say that a corrupt person is not entitled to censure, a position for which they adduce the word of Allah Most High,

"Do you enjoin piety to others and forget yourselves?" (Koran 2:44),

but there are no grounds in the verse for such and inference.

HAVING THE CALIPH'S PERMISSION

q2.3 Some scholars stipulate that the person delivering the censure must have permission to do so from the caliph (def: o25) or his regional appointee, and do not grant that private individuals may censure others. This is untrue, for the Koranic verses and hadiths all indicate that whoever sees something wrong and does nothing has sinned. Stipulating that there must be permission from the caliph is mere arbitrary opinion. One should realize that there are five levels of censure: explaining the wrong nature of the act, admonishing the person politely, reviling him and harshness, forcibly stopping the act (such as by breaking musical instruments or pouring out wine), and finally, intimidation and threatening to strike the person or actually hitting him to stop what he is doing. It is the latter level, not the first four, that requires the caliph, because it may lead to civil disorder. The early Muslims' invariable practice of reprimanding those in authority decisively proves by their consensus (def: b7) that there is no need for a superior's authorization. If it be wondered whether a child is entitled to reprove his father, or a wife her husband, or for private citizens to reprove their ruler, the answer is that all are fundamentally entitled to. We have distinguished the five levels: the child is entitled to explain the nature of the act, to admonish and advise his parents politely, and finally may censure at the fourth level by such things as breaking a lute, pouring out wine, and so forth. This is also the sequence that should be observed by a wife. As for private citizens with their ruler, the matter is much graver than a child's reproving his father, and citizens are only entitled to explain the matter and advise.


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## Mr.Fitnah (Jul 14, 2009)

I now have enough post to add  a link,  the page goes  on to detail the level of coercion and how they are to be applied .The Reliance of the Traveller  is the english version of  Umdat as-Salik wa 'Uddat an-Nasik.
It is an essential tool for understanding Islam.

Reliance of The Traveller: Classic Manual of Islamic Sacred Law

Commanding the Right & Forbidding the Wrong

ISBN: 0915957728 
Author: Naqib Misri/N.H.M. Keller 
Publisher: Amana Publications 
Pages: 1264 Binding: Hardback 

Description from the publisher: 

The new edition of the in-depth manual of Islamic law based on the Shafi'i school of thought, with a detailed index and commentary on specific rulings. 1,200 pages in an exceptional binding with Arabic and facing English text in two column format with occasional diagrams. 'Umdat al-Salik wa 'Uddat al-Nasik (Reliance of the Traveller and tools of the Worshipper) is a classic manual of fiqh. It represents the fiqh rulings according to the Shafi'I school of jurisprudence. The appendices form an integral part of the book and present original texts and translations from classic works by prominent scholars such as al-Ghazali, Ibn Qudamah, al-Nawawi, al-Qurturbi, al-Dhahabi, Ibn Hajar and other, on topics of Islamic law, faith, spirituality, Qur'anic exegesis and Hadith sciences. It has also biographical notes about every person mentioned (391 biographies) , bibliography of each work cited (136 works), and a detailed subject index (95 pages). Of the 136 works drawn upon in its commentary and appendices, 134 are in the original Arabic. The sections and paragraphs have been numbered to facilitate cross-reference.


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## Sunni Man (Jul 14, 2009)

Mr. Fitnah

The reason no one is responding to your posts. 

Is because it is not clear as to what you are saying or what exactly your point is?


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## Mr.Fitnah (Jul 14, 2009)

Sunni Man said:


> Mr. Fitnah
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> The reason no one is responding to your posts.
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> Is because it is not clear as to what you are saying or what exactly your point is?


Many muslims like to say "Islam forbids the killing of innocent people", I'm asking  for some one to proves unequivocally using Islamic scripture that none muslims are innocent, Thanks for reading my post.


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## PixieStix (Jul 14, 2009)

Sunni Man said:


> Mr. Fitnah
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> The reason no one is responding to your posts.
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> Is because it is not clear as to what you are saying or what exactly your point is?


 

The point is facts, and if people actually think and study Islam, there is only one conclusion of it. I am not speaking od Muslims, but of Islam.

People are not responding, because it is early. Many people are still at work. Give them time. ( plus many believe it is ok to denegrade christianity while fearing telling the truth of Islam. 

You want this thread to go away. 

I believe it just may be one of the most informative threads about the history and the truth about mohammed ect. That will exist on this forum.

No apologetics. No fear. Just the facts ma'am 

Islam forbids just about everything that is American.


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## Sunni Man (Jul 14, 2009)

PixieStix said:


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Last time we had a picnic for all of the muslim familys at the mosque.

A couple of the women had baked apple pies for dessert after lunch.

Later in the afternoon, we played a game of baseball.

Apple pie and baseball

Can get more American than that!!!


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## Mr.Fitnah (Jul 14, 2009)

Sunni Man said:


> Last time we had a picnic for all of the muslim familys at the mosque.
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> A couple of the women had baked apple pies for dessert after lunch.
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Insufficient proof non muslims are innocent according to Islamic scripture.


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## Sunni Man (Jul 14, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


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Try to keep up and pay attention Mr. Fitnah.

I was responding to this statement:

"Islam forbids just about everything that is American".


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## Mr.Fitnah (Jul 14, 2009)

Sunni Man said:


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That is no the topic of this thread, please try to refrain from extraneous distraction on a topic (Islam) that means so much to you.
Although many sporting event  do not conflict with shareeah, use care.

Islam Question and Answer - Wearing youth caps

Wearing youth caps
What is your opinion on the new fashion [in the Arab world] of people wearing caps with a visor in front [i.e., baseball caps]?

Praise be to Allaah.  
It is not permissible for a Muslim to imitate the kuffaar in his dress. If wearing these caps or anything else is one of their distinguishing features and something for which they are well are known and by which they are distinguished from others, then it is not permissible for the Muslim to wear those things. But if it serves some purpose and it is not something that belongs exclusively to the kuffaar, such as hats worn for work on building sites or in other workplaces, which are worn to protect the head and shade the eyes from the sun, there is nothing wrong with doing that. But if the hat is worn with the visor to the side or the back, this is not appropriate for the Muslim youth.

Sheikh Muhammed Salih Al-Munajjid


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## Mr.Fitnah (Jul 14, 2009)

Snip

Islam Question and Answer - Ruling on imitating the kuffaar, and the meaning of the phrase, âWhat the Muslims think is good is good before Allaahâ al-Siraat al-Mustaqeem, 237. 

The one who imitates the kuffaar feels that inferior and defeated, so he hastens to make up for his feelings of inadequacy by imitating those whom he admires. If these people were to ponder the greatness of Islamic sharee&#8217;ah and understand how corrupt is that civilization they are running after, they would realize that they are doing wrong and that they have forsaken something that is perfect and true for something that is imperfect and corrupt. 

snip

Our attitude towards western civilization may be one of four things, and there is no fifth: 

1-     Ignoring this civilization, good points and bad alike.

2-     Adopting it in whole, good points and bad.

3-     Adopting the bad things and not the good.

4-     Adopting the good things and not the bad. 

The first three are undoubtedly wrong and only one of them is undoubtedly good, which is the last one.


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## Mr.Fitnah (Jul 14, 2009)

Praise be to Allaah. 

The meeting together, mixing, and intermingling of men and women in one place, the crowding of them together, and the revealing and exposure of women to men are prohibited by the Law of Islam (Shari'ah). These acts are prohibited because they are among the causes for fitnah (temptation or trial which implies evil consequences), the arousing of desires, and the committing of indecency and wrongdoing.

Islam Question and Answer - Evidence Prohibiting of Mixing of Men and Women


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## Sunni Man (Jul 14, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


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Just because one Imam says that he doesn't think the youth should wear ball caps sideways on their heads.

Doesn't make it a hard core ruling that all muslims must obey.

Heck, I were a ball cap my self. But the bill is facing forward.

I have heard famous christian preachers rail against sideways hats and drooping pants.

But that doesn't make it a ruling that all christians must obey.

Personally, I think it looks retarded, and would never hire a kid for my business that wore his hat sideways.


Mr. Fitnah, your veiled questions and accusations against Islam and Muslims is getting very tedious and basically boring.

So unless you have something of substance or interest to address.

I am going to bow out of this useless dialogue.


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## JenT (Jul 14, 2009)

Sunni Man said:


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That sounds just like the celebration I went to.

And many of the women warned me that I better get some shoes on fast or there might be trouble (and not from them)

heh, culture clash to the max


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## Mr.Fitnah (Jul 14, 2009)

Sunni Man said:


> Mr. Fitnah, your veiled questions and accusations against Islam and Muslims is getting very tedious and basically boring.
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> So unless you have something of substance or interest to address.
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Veiled  question? where?


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## JenT (Jul 14, 2009)

Sunni Man said:


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Sunni Man, as politely as I can ask, aren't Muslims supposed to obey their Imams?

Aren't they the ones that can call jihad?

Andrew McCarthy, the lead prosecutor of the Blind Sheik said he used to believe all the talk about how Islam was peaceful until he interviewed a lot of moderate Muslims regarding his case against the blind sheik. He asked them when warlike jihad would be justified. 

They answered when the Imam's (like the terrorist blind sheik) said so.

These were the peaceful moderate Muslims. 

gomer pyle: surprise surprise surprise


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## xotoxi (Jul 14, 2009)

JenT said:


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Isn't it ironic that you take issue with above...yet you believe, based on your religion, that everyone who does not believe in Jesus, will burn in hell for all of eternity?


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## Sunni Man (Jul 14, 2009)

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JenT when I first read your post.

I was inclined to answer because said that you want to politely ask a question.

Then you went into a rant, that ended with a mocking quote from Gomer Pyle.

So which is it?

Serious question or more of your railing against Islam?


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## JenT (Jul 14, 2009)

xotoxi said:


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Just discussing the facts, Xotoxi, I believe imams are supposed to be obeyed, and in a little more compelling terms than say a Christian to a priest. What I wrote prior to this post had nothing to do wtih my opinion, did it?


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## JenT (Jul 14, 2009)

Sunni Man said:


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Rant? really? I thought that was just personality  and Gomer Pyle was just for voice effect.

I started my post with a question and added the facts as I knew them. Don't tell me that isn't done elsewhere, is it?

Asking and sharing what I know, that's a "discussion".


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## Mr.Fitnah (Jul 14, 2009)

Lets get this back on track.
Muslims like to say Islam forbids the killing on innocent people, 
Please prove non muslims ( disbelievers) are innocent according to scripture.
This should be easy enough, since so many muslims say it.


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## PixieStix (Jul 14, 2009)

(...and Al-Fitnah AKA "Spreading Mischief" is worse than killing.) 

I; as an infidel to Islam, am not innocent


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## Anguille (Jul 14, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> I'm asking  for some one to proves equivocally using Islamic scripture that none muslims are innocent.


Could someone please translate this gibberish for me?


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## RetiredGySgt (Jul 14, 2009)

xotoxi said:


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Let me get this straight....Believeing that AFTER someone dies they may suffer for bad choices made in life is the same as murdering people to punish them for bad choices in life? Is that REALLY what you are arguing?


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## Anguille (Jul 14, 2009)

JenT said:


> I believe imams are supposed to be obeyed, and in a little more compelling terms than say a Christian to a priest.



What do you base that belief on?


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## RetiredGySgt (Jul 14, 2009)

Anguille said:


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Ohh I don't know, car bombings, suicide attacks, riots over cartoons, stoning women, etc etc etc....


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## Anguille (Jul 14, 2009)

RetiredGySgt said:


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You mean like bombing of abortion clinics and the systematic rape of underage girls in rural Utah ?


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## JenT (Jul 14, 2009)

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want to show me where it says to do that in the Bible?

then do you really want the verses in the Koran to be scrutinized?

If you want to blame a religion, then LOOK at what the holy books say, not what's done in the name of that religion, or what our government wants us to believe about that religion, but how the religion defines itself.


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## PixieStix (Jul 14, 2009)

RetiredGySgt said:


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 Theo Van Gogh murdered, for his "Submission" Movie


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## Anguille (Jul 14, 2009)

RetiredGySgt said:


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In the minds of those who believe in life after death it's just about the same thing.


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## Mr.Fitnah (Jul 14, 2009)

Lets get this back on track.
Muslims like to say Islam forbids the killing on innocent people, 
Please prove non muslims ( disbelievers) are innocent according to scripture.
This should be easy enough, since so many muslims say it.


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## xotoxi (Jul 14, 2009)

JenT said:


> Just discussing the facts, Xotoxi, I believe imams are supposed to be obeyed, and in a little more compelling terms than say a Christian to a priest. What I wrote prior to this post had nothing to do wtih my opinion, did it?


 
Okay...

Then let's just strip it down to the bare bones so I can make my point.

I find it ironic that you comment on the supposed violent tendencies of Islam and how Islam encourages violence, death, destruction, and murder of "infidels".....

Yet you also believe, based on your religion, that everyone who does not believe in Jesus, will burn in hell for all of eternity...a fate worse than death.

So, which fate would *you* find more horrific: being murdered as an infidel, or spending eternity at the right hand of Satan?

If you choose the latter, then that is the fate to which your religion, to which your holy book, is condemning the majority of humans on this Earth.


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## Liability (Jul 14, 2009)

JenT said:


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Truth.

Compare the tenents of the faiths:  Islam vs. Christianity.

If one turns the other cheek and returns love for hate, one is adhering to the tenents of Christ's teachings.

If one insists that others must submit to his religion, and does so by deciet, force, violence, jizyah, etc., one is adhering to the tenents of Islam.


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## PixieStix (Jul 14, 2009)

Everyone please keep in mind that the Islamic definition of the word "persecution" does NOT hold the same meaning as it does in our dictionary

Just an FYI


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## Anguille (Jul 14, 2009)

PixieStix said:


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By a man diagnosed with severe depression and psychosis. Funny how when Muslims do crazy things it's because of their religion but if a Christian or a Jew does something similar it's because they are crazy. A double standard, don't you think?


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## Mr.Fitnah (Jul 14, 2009)

xotoxi said:


> If you choose the latter, then that is the fate to which your religion, to which your holy book, is condemning the majority of humans on this Earth.


 Actually  It is the person who choses, They do not have to suffer the presence of a God  they do not believe in, an act of ironic kindness.


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## Anguille (Jul 14, 2009)

Liability said:


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You and Jen live in Lala land.


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## Anguille (Jul 14, 2009)

Anguille said:


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Mr Fitnah gives me neg rep (actually neutral rep with a neg comment since he has no rep power) for this post yet still can't tell us what the hell he's saying.

How does one "prove equivocally"?


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## PixieStix (Jul 14, 2009)

Anguille said:


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*Pay Back for Submission*



http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/notorious_murders/famous/theo_van_gogh/2.html


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## Mr.Fitnah (Jul 14, 2009)

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Thanks, a typo unequivocally .


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## Liability (Jul 14, 2009)

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In other words, as is always the case with you:  you are flatly unable to refute the point.

By the way.  Jen, God love her, is the religious one.  Me?  Not so much.  It is you who lives in the delusional state.  Your mind is just far too clouded to see this, however.


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## xotoxi (Jul 14, 2009)

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...and then he thanks you.


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## Anguille (Jul 14, 2009)

xotoxi said:


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I give him credit for being humble enough to admit he messed up.


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## PixieStix (Jul 14, 2009)

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I accidently thanked an asshole the other day too, but I promptly removed it


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## Anguille (Jul 14, 2009)

Sunni Man said:


> JenT when I first read your post.
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Ever so endearing, isn't she.


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## random3434 (Jul 14, 2009)

Christians, Muslims,Jews,  Atheists and "Others" 


Please read this link, it's very interesting to what you all are talking about. I find it interesting that those who profess such love for their fellow man show so much hate for those that think different than them religion-wise. 




Differences Between the Muslim and Christian Concepts of Divine Love




> > 1) The Christian and the Islamic considerations concerning love in divine context have been shown as not being identical but similar, as was to be expected.
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> > 2) Differences between the two approaches result above all from the:
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## Anguille (Jul 14, 2009)

xotoxi said:


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Good point and a scary one too. Since some of these fruitcakes really believe those who don't think like they do will burn in hell for eternity, what does that tell you about their supposed love for mankind?  

I think God is gonna get them for that.


----------



## PixieStix (Jul 14, 2009)

Anguille said:


> Mr.Fitnah said:
> 
> 
> > I'm asking for some one to proves equivocally using Islamic scripture that none muslims are innocent.
> ...


 
Here hun, I will type reeeaaaly slow for you

It means "DO YOU HAVE A IRREFUTABLE AKA unequivocal PROOF FROM ISLAMIC SCRIPTURE THAT WILL PROVE THAT KILLING ME< YOU< OR ANY OTHER NON MUSLIM IS AGAINST ISLAM???


----------



## PixieStix (Jul 14, 2009)

Anguille said:


> xotoxi said:
> 
> 
> > JenT said:
> ...


 
If you actually knew what you were talking about on a religious level, I might listen to this, but it seems you have not a clue of any factual evidence of neither Christianity nor of Islam


----------



## Anguille (Jul 14, 2009)

Echo Zulu said:


> Christians, Muslims,Jews,  Atheists and "Others"
> 
> 
> Please read this link, it's very interesting to what you all are talking about. I find it interesting that those who profess such love for their fellow man show so much hate for those that think different than them religion-wise.
> ...


----------



## PixieStix (Jul 14, 2009)

Asking valid question about fundamentals of Islam does not add up to hatred of any man Echo, it does however add up to facts being hidden for reasons that many do not nor will not address


----------



## Mr.Fitnah (Jul 14, 2009)

Echo Zulu said:


> Christians, Muslims,Jews,  Atheists and "Others"
> 
> 
> Please read this link, it's very interesting to what you all are talking about. I find it interesting that those who profess such love for their fellow man show so much hate for those that think different than them religion-wise.
> ...


----------



## RetiredGySgt (Jul 14, 2009)

Just so I have it clear, 2 people in this thread that probably do not believe in God are equating the potential placement of someone AFTER death as the same as murdering someone in real life. Do I have that correct?

As for the abortion bombings and doctors murdered. lets compare shall we? How many doctors have been murdered in the last 30 years for preforming abortions? How many abortion clinics or free clinics have been bombed? How many of those acts have been PRAISED by religious leaders of main stream religions?


Now how many Muslims have strapped bombs on and blown themselves up to kill others in the same 30 years? How many car bombs have there been set off by Muslims? How many terror attacks by Muslims? How many women mutilated or stoned or imprisoned for religious beliefs? So on and so on. All just in the last 30 years. And how many Muslim religious leaders have praised these actions and called for MORE?


----------



## random3434 (Jul 14, 2009)

[





> quote
> 
> 
> 
> ...



So how many Muslims *living here in the United States*, going to our schools, shopping at our stores, sitting by us at the movies, etc.  have killed the "unislamic" people here?


----------



## Anguille (Jul 14, 2009)

PixieStix said:


> Anguille said:
> 
> 
> > xotoxi said:
> ...


Is anyone surprised that you are not willing to listen to anything that does not parrot your own goosestepping cult of hatred? 
You, JunT, Liarbilly and a few other pals of yours are an embarrassment to honest and sincere followers of Christ's teachings.


----------



## PixieStix (Jul 14, 2009)

Here is also, one of the best essays I have read on the subject
Al-Fitnah and "Spreading Mischief"


----------



## xotoxi (Jul 14, 2009)

RetiredGySgt said:


> Just so I have it clear, 2 people in this thread that probably do not believe in God are equating the potential placement of someone AFTER death as the same as murdering someone in real life. Do I have that correct?


 
When I am told by someone that I will go to hell for eternity if I do not believe in Jesus, it peaks my curiousity.  I wonder: why is going to hell such a big deal?

And it turns out that it is a VERY big deal to the person that believes it.

And to then extrapolate that same damnation to everyone worldwide that does not believe in Jesus...that's just bullshit.

Don't bring up those who strap bombs on and kill people...that is not the issue I want to discuss.

The issue that _*I*_ am asking you and others to rectify is: WHY IS YOUR RELIGION THE ONLY CORRECT ONE?  And WHY IS THE PENALTY FOR NOT BELIEVING IT SO HARSH?


----------



## Mr.Fitnah (Jul 14, 2009)

Echo Zulu said:


> So how many Muslims *living here in the United States*, going to our schools, shopping at our stores, sitting by us at the movies, etc.  have killed the "unislamic" people here?


Islamic scripture allows believers to undertake jihad if they are moved to


'Umdat as-Salik wa 'Uddat an-Nasik 

Page 602
09.6
it is offensive to conduct a military expedition against hostile non-Muslims without the caliphs permission, but if there is no caliph, no permission is required. 

Islamic scripture also gives  permission to avoid conflict until there numbers are in place

The Ayah says, one Muslim should endure ten disbelievers. Allah abrogated this part later on, but the good news remained. `Abdullah bin Al-Mubarak said that Jarir bin Hazim narrated to them that, Az-Zubayr bin Al-Khirrit narrated to him, from `Ikrimah, from Ibn `Abbas, "When this verse was revealed,


&#64831;&#1573;&#1616;&#1606; &#1610;&#1614;&#1603;&#1615;&#1606; &#1605;&#1616;&#1617;&#1606;&#1603;&#1615;&#1605;&#1618; &#1593;&#1616;&#1588;&#1618;&#1585;&#1615;&#1608;&#1606;&#1614; &#1589;&#1614;&#1600;&#1576;&#1616;&#1585;&#1615;&#1608;&#1606;&#1614; &#1610;&#1614;&#1594;&#1618;&#1604;&#1616;&#1576;&#1615;&#1608;&#1575;&#1618; &#1605;&#1616;&#1575;&#1618;&#1574;&#1614;&#1578;&#1614;&#1610;&#1618;&#1606;&#1616;&#64830;


(If there are twenty steadfast persons among you, they will overcome two hundred...) it became difficult for the Muslims, when Allah commanded that one Muslim is required to endure ten idolators. Soon after, this matter was made easy,


&#64831;&#1575;&#1604;&#1614;&#1600;&#1606;&#1614; &#1582;&#1614;&#1601;&#1614;&#1617;&#1601;&#1614; &#1575;&#1604;&#1604;&#1614;&#1617;&#1607;&#1615; &#1593;&#1614;&#1606;&#1603;&#1615;&#1605;&#1618;&#64830;


(Now Allah has lightened your (task)), until,


&#64831;&#1610;&#1614;&#1594;&#1618;&#1604;&#1616;&#1576;&#1615;&#1608;&#1575;&#1618; &#1605;&#1616;&#1575;&#1618;&#1574;&#1614;&#1578;&#1614;&#1610;&#1618;&#1606;&#1616;&#64830;


(they shall overcome two hundred. ..)


Allah lowered the number &#64831;of adversaries that Muslims are required to endure&#64830;, and thus, made the required patience less, compatible to the decrease in numbers.'' Al-Bukhari recorded a similar narration from Ibn Al-Mubarak. Muhammad bin Ishaq recorded that Ibn `Abbas said, "When this Ayah was revealed, it was difficult for the Muslims, for they thought it was burdensome since twenty should fight two hundred, and a hundred against a thousand. Allah made this ruling easy for them and abrogated this Ayah with another Ayah,


Tafsir.com Tafsir Ibn Kathir

17.16. And when We decide to destroy a town (population), We (first) send a definite order (to obey Allâh and be righteous) to those among them [or We (first) increase in number those of its population] who are given the good things of this life. Then, they transgress therein, and thus the word (of torment) is justified against it (them). Then We destroy it with complete destruction.


----------



## random3434 (Jul 14, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> Echo Zulu said:
> 
> 
> > So how many Muslims *living here in the United States*, going to our schools, shopping at our stores, sitting by us at the movies, etc.  have killed the "unislamic" people here?
> ...



You still didn't answer my question, just copied and pasted something.


Again, how many Muslims *living here in the United States*, going to our schools, shopping at our stores, sitting by us at the movies, etc.  have killed the "unislamic" people here?


----------



## Anguille (Jul 14, 2009)

RetiredGySgt said:


> Just so I have it clear, 2 people in this thread that probably do not believe in God are equating the potential placement of someone AFTER death as the same as murdering someone in real life. Do I have that correct?
> 
> As for the abortion bombings and doctors murdered. lets compare shall we? How many doctors have been murdered in the last 30 years for preforming abortions? How many abortion clinics or free clinics have been bombed? How many of those acts have been PRAISED by religious leaders of main stream religions?
> 
> ...



Like I said above, you hypocrites claim it's just the extremists in your religion who are behind the Christian related violence, yet you claim it's the majority of Muslims behind the violence related to Islamic issues. And of course you always pooh pooh the evidence of centuries of repression and violence perpetrated by the Catholic Church and Protestant sects as well. When are you fools going to get a clue?  The problem is fundamentalism and extremism, regardless of which mainstream religion it identifies with. 

Oh maybe, you'll never get a clue because you are all extremists yourselves. Your hate mongering gives you away.


----------



## xotoxi (Jul 14, 2009)

Echo Zulu said:


> [
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
One of my brothers, my father, my mother, three of my cousins, four uncles, my best friend from high school, seven of my neighbors, and the lady who was my baby sitter when I was 3, were all killed in separate incidents by American Muslims.

But I'm sure those were all random acts.


----------



## RetiredGySgt (Jul 14, 2009)

xotoxi said:


> RetiredGySgt said:
> 
> 
> > Just so I have it clear, 2 people in this thread that probably do not believe in God are equating the potential placement of someone AFTER death as the same as murdering someone in real life. Do I have that correct?
> ...



Not true, first you make the mistake of claiming something that not all Christians believe to be fact, then you try to use it justify the actual murder of innocents by Islam.

I personally know that there is no lake of Fire and no one will burn anywhere. That is not what will happen. Those found undeserving will be returned to death and will not be receiving a perfect body to live forever in. There is no Hell after the Judgement day. Hell is where Satan rules and that is Earth right now. After Judgement Day it will cease to exist. Satan will be put to death and all his followers will be also.

And I repeat, how in the hell, if you do not believe, can you possibly equate real murder with the belief that AFTER someone dies they will go to Hell? How can you justify any of that? You want to call believers delusional while you make ignorant claims like this?

You do not believe, why do you even care that some delusional person thinks you will go to a lake of non existent Fire? And how in hell can you compare THAT to actual MURDER.


----------



## Liability (Jul 14, 2009)

xotoxi said:


> RetiredGySgt said:
> 
> 
> > Just so I have it clear, 2 people in this thread that probably do not believe in God are equating the potential placement of someone AFTER death as the same as murdering someone in real life. Do I have that correct?
> ...



Do you realize that these heart-felt questions and the angst it produces in you could JUST AS READILY be directed at Islam?

For, whether you realize it or not, ISLAM also teaches that the fate of non-believers is a torturous eternal afterlife in PLAIN VIEW of the ones who have achieved Islamic salvation -- where they will laugh at the suffering souls in damnation.


----------



## Anguille (Jul 14, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> Echo Zulu said:
> 
> 
> > So how many Muslims *living here in the United States*, going to our schools, shopping at our stores, sitting by us at the movies, etc.  have killed the "unislamic" people here?
> ...


So getting back to what Echo asked, if all you claim is true, explain to me why my Muslim friends have not murdered me for being an atheist?


----------



## Mr.Fitnah (Jul 14, 2009)

Echo Zulu said:


> [
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Mohammed Reza Taheri-azar
John Allen Muhammad 
Naveed Haq
Abdulhakim Mujahid Muhammad
Sulejmen Talovic
Omeed Aziz Popal
Ismail Yassin Mohamed

The body count is not as of yet  complete, nor is the list.


----------



## PixieStix (Jul 14, 2009)

Echo Zulu said:


> Mr.Fitnah said:
> 
> 
> > Echo Zulu said:
> ...


 
Not many because we have laws against it. Sharia law is not the law of the land, but if we allow Islamic finance in this country, soon and very soon sharia will take hold in other parts of our culture, much like the Christian culture formed our laws so does Islamic law, AKA sharia make a culture

But more than we are aware of. In my city a few years back, a young girl was murdered by her cousins, for not wanting to marry her other cousin, her mom and dad set it up


----------



## Mr.Fitnah (Jul 14, 2009)

Anguille said:


> So getting back to what Echo asked, if all you claim is true, explain to me why my Muslim friends have not murdered me for being an atheist?


You do not have any muslim friends.

33:36.  
It is not for a believer, man or woman, when Allâh and His Messenger have decreed a matter that they should have any option in their decision. And whoever disobeys Allâh and His Messenger, he has indeed strayed in a plain error. 

The Prohibition of Being Loyal Friends with Disbelievers


This Ayah discourages and forbids taking the enemies of Islam and its people, such as the People of the Book and the polytheists, as friends. These disbelievers mock the most important acts that any person could ever perform, the honorable, pure acts of Islam which include all types of good for this life and the Hereafter. They mock such acts and make them the subject of jest and play, because this is what these acts represent in their misguided minds and cold hearts. Allah said;
Tafsir.com Tafsir Ibn Kathir

The Prohibition of Supporting the Disbelievers


Allah prohibited His believing servants from becoming supporters of the disbelievers, or to take them as comrades with whom they develop friendships, rather than the believers. Allah warned against such behavior when He said,


----------



## xotoxi (Jul 14, 2009)

RetiredGySgt said:


> xotoxi said:
> 
> 
> > RetiredGySgt said:
> ...


 
Thank you for your perspective.

However, what part of...

"Don't bring up those who strap bombs on and kill people...that is not the issue I want to discuss"

...do you not understand???  I am not comparing going to Hell and earth murderers.  I told you to drop the murder discussion and focus on Christianity.  You gave me your perspective...thank you.

But if you are so curious...I think they are evil murderers.


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## Anguille (Jul 14, 2009)

Echo Zulu said:


> Mr.Fitnah said:
> 
> 
> > Echo Zulu said:
> ...


In fact you could ask how many Muslims _anywhere_? Very few, because otherwise, seeing as Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world and is currently practiced by a huge percentage of the world population, if Muslims were all killing non Muslims, there wouldn't be any non Muslims left by now.


----------



## random3434 (Jul 14, 2009)

Jesus: The Islamic and Christian Views Compared






> Muslims, like Christians believe Jesus performed miracles. But these were performed by the will and permission of God, Who has power and control over all things.
> 
> "Then will God say: &#8216;O Jesus the son of Mary! recount My favor to you and to your mother. Behold! I strengthened you with the Holy Spirit (the angel Gabriel) so that you did speak to the people in childhood and in maturity. Behold! I taught you the Book and Wisdom, the Law and the Gospel. And behold: you make out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, by My leave, and you breathe into it, and it becomes a bird by My leave, and you heal those born blind, and the lepers by My leave. And behold! you bring forth the dead by My leave. And behold! I did restrain the children of Israel from (violence to you) when you did show them the Clear Signs, and the unbelievers among them said: &#8216;This is nothing but evident magic' (5:110).


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## JenT (Jul 14, 2009)

xotoxi said:


> RetiredGySgt said:
> 
> 
> > Just so I have it clear, 2 people in this thread that probably do not believe in God are equating the potential placement of someone AFTER death as the same as murdering someone in real life. Do I have that correct?
> ...



I believe it is the only correct one because there can only be one, and (if you mean Christian) I believe it on so many levels but mostly because I tasted and saw that it was good. And because all of creation screams that there is a Creator all around me. But mostly because I answered when the Holy Spirit called. I believe He calls all of us. Some of us have walked so far away, it takes some time to backtrack, but He is there, he is waiting. Don't know for how much longer (personally I believe years but nobody knows, could be tomorrow)

Why is the penalty so harsh? Because hell was created for satan. It was never created for people. But so many of us want to follow him there.

I HAVE HOPE that the descriptions of hell are so bad because no words of pain can describe the feeling of loss that will happen when someone realizes Who God is and that they passed up on the chance to be with the Lord for all eternity. I seriously HOPE that's what that's about, but it's not what Christ said so I can't say that. So I guess my answer is, I don't know, Xotoxi. I can see there needed to be a choice but why it has to be so bad to choose opposite of Him, I don't know. 

I suppose that's why though. Because it is the opposite of Him.


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## xotoxi (Jul 14, 2009)

Liability said:


> xotoxi said:
> 
> 
> > RetiredGySgt said:
> ...


 
Sure...but that was a nice try at diversion.

Why don't you take an attempt at discussing *YOUR* religion as opposed to someone elses?


----------



## Mr.Fitnah (Jul 14, 2009)

Liability said:


> Do you realize that these heart-felt questions and the angst it produces in you could JUST AS READILY be directed at Islam?
> 
> For, whether you realize it or not, ISLAM also teaches that the fate of non-believers is a torturous eternal afterlife in PLAIN VIEW of the ones who have achieved Islamic salvation -- where they will laugh at the suffering souls in damnation.


In Islam allah actually resides in hell to see to the personal toture of the unbelievers

The Noble Quran : Surat 68
68:44. Then leave Me Alone with such as belie this Qur'ân. We shall punish them gradually from directions they perceive not.


----------



## Anguille (Jul 14, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> Anguille said:
> 
> 
> > So getting back to what Echo asked, if all you claim is true, explain to me why my Muslim friends have not murdered me for being an atheist?
> ...



You are spouting gibberish again.


----------



## JenT (Jul 14, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> Lets get this back on track.
> Muslims like to say Islam forbids the killing on innocent people,
> Please prove non muslims ( disbelievers) are innocent according to scripture.
> This should be easy enough, since so many muslims say it.



I'm so sorry, I derailed the thread


----------



## Mr.Fitnah (Jul 14, 2009)

Echo Zulu said:


> Jesus: The Islamic and Christian Views Compared
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Kind of off topic.
This  thread is  about how muslims like to say " Islam forbids the killing of innocent people"
Please provide scripture to proves unequivocally non muslims are innocent.


----------



## PixieStix (Jul 14, 2009)

Anguille said:


> Mr.Fitnah said:
> 
> 
> > Anguille said:
> ...


 
My dear, that is Islam.


----------



## random3434 (Jul 14, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> Echo Zulu said:
> 
> 
> > Jesus: The Islamic and Christian Views Compared
> ...



How is this off topic? Aren't you a Christian?


----------



## Liability (Jul 14, 2009)

Anguille said:


> Mr.Fitnah said:
> 
> 
> > Anguille said:
> ...



That's just your typically ignorant way of expressing your inability to formulate a coherent response.

 Allah forbids Muslims from having you infidels as friends  Accordingly, if a Muslim says he is your friend, then he is either NOT a true adherent of Islam (he is just one of those "apostates," perhaps) OR he is only a false friend, engaging in the religiously sanctioned practice of lying to you for whatever purpose may assist the greater glory of Islam.


----------



## JenT (Jul 14, 2009)

Liability said:


> Anguille said:
> 
> 
> > Liability said:
> ...



Okay lol, I don't know who you are but keep swooping outta nowhere like this and I won't be able to buy insurance anywhere cause I'll be too busy swooning just talking about it.


----------



## Mr.Fitnah (Jul 14, 2009)

Anguille said:


> Mr.Fitnah said:
> 
> 
> > Anguille said:
> ...



I'm thinking the problem may not lay with me.


----------



## Liability (Jul 14, 2009)

JenT said:


> Liability said:
> 
> 
> > Anguille said:
> ...



I am me.

As far as I know, I have always been me.


----------



## JenT (Jul 14, 2009)

Liability said:


> That's just your typically ignorant way of expressing your inability to formulate a coherent response.



Yes, Mr. Insurance man, just tell me where to sign...(thud)


----------



## Mr.Fitnah (Jul 14, 2009)

Echo Zulu said:


> How is this off topic? Aren't you a Christian?


This thread is about Islam and its jihad against non muslims, and the muslims obligation to lie about it.


----------



## JenT (Jul 14, 2009)

Okay (focusing) 

I don't know any scriptures that say that.

My neighbors would probably say that they're my friends, they recently escaped from Syria. They say everyone over there is crazy. 

And then I watch the revolving door of "relatives" that never come back but the stream never ceases...and occasionally they park the boat on the street...


----------



## random3434 (Jul 14, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> Echo Zulu said:
> 
> 
> > How is this off topic? Aren't you a Christian?
> ...



But are you a Christian? It's on topic, since this is in the religion section, and the topic of Christianity has been brought up in this thread. It's relevant.


----------



## JenT (Jul 14, 2009)

Echo Zulu said:


> Mr.Fitnah said:
> 
> 
> > Echo Zulu said:
> ...



I don't see it either EZ. It would be nice to know but it's not required, is it?

If so, my gosh, I can't count how many denominations I frequent.


----------



## random3434 (Jul 14, 2009)

JenT said:


> Echo Zulu said:
> 
> 
> > Mr.Fitnah said:
> ...



Jent, I'm trying to be civil here, and I think I'm asking valid questions. Why can't my questions be answered, there is a reason to them. 

Thanks!


----------



## Mr.Fitnah (Jul 14, 2009)

Echo Zulu said:


> Mr.Fitnah said:
> 
> 
> > Echo Zulu said:
> ...


My faith is a topic?I know thread  can evolve, I just dont encourage it ,nor did I hijack it.
I am Yahuwdym, meaning those who are related to Yah.


----------



## JenT (Jul 14, 2009)

oh I was hoping and am still wondering but still not sure...

(biting lip)

(research) NOPE! not who I was guessing, I was guessing a man more like seveneagle

no clue  still like your post though


----------



## Mr.Fitnah (Jul 14, 2009)

JenT said:


> oh I was hoping and am still wondering but still not sure...
> 
> (biting lip)


His name is  Yahushua, He is the diminished human manifestation of Yahuweh.


----------



## random3434 (Jul 14, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> Echo Zulu said:
> 
> 
> > Mr.Fitnah said:
> ...



That explains a lot, and your "mission" on your Muslim threads.

Thank you for answering!


----------



## Missourian (Jul 14, 2009)

xotoxi said:


> RetiredGySgt said:
> 
> 
> > Just so I have it clear, 2 people in this thread that probably do not believe in God are equating the potential placement of someone AFTER death as the same as murdering someone in real life. Do I have that correct?
> ...


 
Are you bored or something?

If someone doesn't believe in the Message then they also don't believe in the penalty...so what's the problem?


----------



## Mr.Fitnah (Jul 14, 2009)

Muslims like to say "Islam forbids the killing of innocent people"
Please provide scripture to proves unequivocally non muslims are innocent


----------



## JenT (Jul 15, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> JenT said:
> 
> 
> > oh I was hoping and am still wondering but still not sure...
> ...



Is that a different spelling for Yeshua? 

And you wrote, "diminished" ? I never heard it expressed like that before. I can see where it comes from though "No one knows but the Father"

Christ did give up some of His attributes to come down in the flesh, so I guess that fits, it just...I never heard it said like that before.


----------



## JenT (Jul 15, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> Muslims like to say "Islam forbids the killing of innocent people"
> Please provide scripture to proves unequivocally non muslims are innocent



Sorry YES, watching for this answer as well  because I don't know of any in the Quran.



Mr.Fitnah said:


> Muslims like to say "Islam forbids the killing of innocent people"
> Please provide scripture to proves unequivocally non muslims are innocent


----------



## Anguille (Jul 15, 2009)

Missourian said:


> xotoxi said:
> 
> 
> > RetiredGySgt said:
> ...


It's not necessary to believe in the penalty to recognize just how serious someone is about wishing endless suffering upon you. It's not what they say, it's the extreme vehemence  of their hatred that is worth discussing.


----------



## Anguille (Jul 15, 2009)

JenT said:


> Mr.Fitnah said:
> 
> 
> > Muslims like to say "Islam forbids the killing of innocent people"
> ...


Apparently neither you or Mr Fitnit know anything about the Koran or the Bible either.


----------



## Anguille (Jul 15, 2009)

JenT said:


> Liability said:
> 
> 
> > Anguille said:
> ...


When are you too gonna get a room?


----------



## JenT (Jul 15, 2009)

Anguille said:


> Missourian said:
> 
> 
> > xotoxi said:
> ...



Anguille, this is astounding.

Christ WEPT on the steps of the Temple for the men who were about to crucify Him, saying* "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!" Matthew 23*

Our vehemence is not in wishing death or harm to anyone, we vehemently stand by what Christ said. Your issue is with Christ and we cannot and will not change it. 

The whole purpose of His coming down and being brutalized beyond human recognition only to be nailed and die on a cross was so that we would not have to suffer the judgement.

THAT is love. Yet you insist it's hate. And I don't understand how you can think that?


----------



## JenT (Jul 15, 2009)

ARGH! I did it again! Okay STOP distracting me! I'm waiting with Mr. Fitnah...



JenT said:


> Mr.Fitnah said:
> 
> 
> > Muslims like to say "Islam forbids the killing of innocent people"
> ...


----------



## JenT (Jul 15, 2009)

Anguille said:


> JenT said:
> 
> 
> > Liability said:
> ...



Us, too? Did you already get one?


----------



## JenT (Jul 15, 2009)

ARGH! I did it again! Okay STOP distracting me! I'm waiting with Mr. Fitnah...



JenT said:


> Mr.Fitnah said:
> 
> 
> > Muslims like to say "Islam forbids the killing of innocent people"
> ...



Focused.


----------



## Anguille (Jul 15, 2009)

JenT said:


> Anguille said:
> 
> 
> > Missourian said:
> ...


There is nothing loving about you, Jen. You are a walking talking nightmare. If I believed in the devil I would say he was you.


----------



## mal (Jul 15, 2009)

JenT said:


> ARGH! I did it again! Okay STOP distracting me! I'm waiting with Mr. Fitnah...
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Ignore them Lady... They are like a Rash...

And Feed on your Attention.

This Thread is Difficult for them...

Confusing and Frustrating...



peace...


----------



## JenT (Jul 15, 2009)

(*(*(*(*(*(*( MAL! )*)*)*)*)*)*)*) wb!

Really? I thought I was feeling the love from Angie! 

and btw, I don't think Mr. Fitnah is asking me for those scriptures, he waiting for confirmation from those of Islam to let us know where we non-Muslims are innocent so they can not carry out what the Quran says


----------



## Newby (Jul 15, 2009)

Anguille said:


> PixieStix said:
> 
> 
> > Anguille said:
> ...



How are they an embarrassment?  You don't even know them.  I want to hear an explanation of your comments.  If you don't have one, then you're not even worth debating.


----------



## Newby (Jul 15, 2009)

Anguille said:


> Missourian said:
> 
> 
> > xotoxi said:
> ...



Where ever did you get the notion that Christians 'wished' such an ending for anyone?  How can you say with any intellectual honesty that you think Christians 'hate' you? Your posts are ridiculous bullshit and aren't even worthy of a response.  Perhaps you should look inward to why you harbor such hatred, b/c it's apparent that you do with such ridiculous comments.


----------



## Newby (Jul 15, 2009)

JenT said:


> Anguille said:
> 
> 
> > Missourian said:
> ...



She has an agenda, that's how.  She should try using a little intellectual honesty, but perhaps she is incapable.  Who knows? Who cares?


----------



## Newby (Jul 15, 2009)

Anguille said:


> JenT said:
> 
> 
> > Anguille said:
> ...




My, aren't we the judgmental one?


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## Fatality (Jul 15, 2009)

PixieStix said:


> Anguille said:
> 
> 
> > xotoxi said:
> ...



you can always bring a smile to my face, peace


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## Fatality (Jul 15, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> Muslims like to say "Islam forbids the killing of innocent people"
> Please provide scripture to proves unequivocally non muslims are innocent



ive looked but cannot find it, only the opposite


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## PixieStix (Jul 15, 2009)

Fatality said:


> PixieStix said:
> 
> 
> > Anguille said:
> ...


 
I live for that 

Welcome to the forum. 

Peace to you my friend


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## Mr.Fitnah (Jul 15, 2009)

Muslims like to say,"Islam forbids the killing of innocent people" 
Please prove unequivocally that none muslims (disbelievers)are innocent according to Islamic scripture.


----------



## PixieStix (Jul 15, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> Muslims like to say,"Islam forbids the killing of innocent people"
> Please prove unequivocally that none muslims (disbelievers)are innocent according to Islamic scripture.


 
 they have not found anything yet, I wish they could. It is not a possibility from what I have read, and studied, unfortunate, but true


I have to get up early to pay my jizah


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## Mr.Fitnah (Jul 15, 2009)

Funny we  are blessed to have a prolific Islamic scholar @ USMB who seems unable to view  or post in this thread,

Muslims like to say,"Islam forbids the killing of innocent people" 
Please prove unequivocally that none muslims (disbelievers)are innocent according to Islamic scripture.


----------



## mal (Jul 16, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> Funny we  are blessed to have a prolific Islamic scholar @ USMB who seems unable to view  or post in this thread,
> 
> Muslims like to say,"Islam forbids the killing of innocent people"
> Please prove unequivocally that none muslims (disbelievers)are innocent according to Islamic scripture.



Yeah, but, but, but... THE CRUSADES!...

FRED PHELPS!...



peace...


----------



## Liability (Jul 16, 2009)

PixieStix said:


> Mr.Fitnah said:
> 
> 
> > Muslims like to say,"Islam forbids the killing of innocent people"
> ...



In the United States, the Tax Freedom Day changes.  I think it's now roughly about mid-April.

Under the malignant Islamic thumb, if they could impose their jizyah on us, tax freedom day would be -- never.

My earnings are the fruit of my laber.  Liberty includes being able to keep and enjoy the fruits of my own labor.  Confiscatory taxation denies me liberty.  Islam abhors liberty.


----------



## Mr.Fitnah (Jul 16, 2009)

The mere fact that the resident experts on Islam are free of this thread speaks volumes .
I could be  convinced if  someone had a coherent argument , something  rational ,not answers like, bigot ,hate monger, your taking the Quran out of context, abrogation is a false doctrine.Christianity is worse, haven't you read Deuteronomy ? You have to read arabic to understand Islam,move  out of your mothers basement etc etc.

Something that abrogates 

8:39

And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and polytheism: i.e. worshipping others besides Allâh) and the religion (worship) will all be for Allâh Alone [in the whole of the world[]]. But if they cease (worshipping others besides Allâh), then certainly, Allâh is All-Seer of what they do 
2:193.  
And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allâh) and (all and every kind of) worship is for Allâh (Alone).[] But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against Az-Zâlimûn (the polytheists, and wrong-doers, etc193

Index of /what-is-islam/quran/noble

Tafsir.com Tafsir Ibn Kathir

Tafsir.com Tafsir Ibn Kathir

Tafsir.com Tafsir Ibn Kathir

A scholarly edict from  a well known  mosque in  mecca maybe.


----------



## Fatality (Jul 16, 2009)

personal opinon dosent count, no wonder they are absent


----------



## mal (Jul 16, 2009)

Fatality said:


> personal opinon dosent count, no wonder they are absent



How the Left FEELS about Islam isn't in line with Reality...

When the Facts are Presented, as they are in this Thread, the Cowards run...

And this is Precisely why I call them Cowards when it comes to Islam.



peace...


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## JenT (Jul 16, 2009)

http://www.ibdeditorials.com/IMAGES/CARTOONS/toon060409.gif


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## Mr.Fitnah (Jul 17, 2009)

Feel free to invite any muslims  to come here and inform  is how non muslims are innocent according to Islamic scripture.
Maybe we can make this a sticky .


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## Fatality (Jul 17, 2009)

"innocence" funny little word, I guess no muhammadans want to step up and let us know who it applies to and who it does not apply to?


----------



## Mr.Fitnah (Jul 17, 2009)

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J6SQ-LRK4sk]YouTube - Robert spencer :Summit on Radical Islam.Islam forbids the killing of innocent people[/ame]

Spencer hits it out of the park this morning


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## Fatality (Jul 17, 2009)

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ldIfWnMHBM&feature=channel]YouTube - Killing "Infidels"[/ame]


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## Mr.Fitnah (Jul 17, 2009)

" you must  hate for the sake of   allah,"
Rare that you here the truth out of a muslim.


----------



## PixieStix (Jul 17, 2009)

Fatality said:


> YouTube - Killing "Infidels"


 

Whoop there it is. Where are the apologists, and the PC bafoons


----------



## JenT (Jul 17, 2009)

Fatality said:


> YouTube - Killing "Infidels"



Wow, slip sliding away, thanks for the link!


----------



## SW2SILVER (Jul 17, 2009)

Islam forbids nothing accept  questioning Islam, that is. Islam is about love, unless  You aren't Muslim. Jihad means something about self struggle. Mien Kampf means pretty much the same thing. Struggle against WHAT, that is the question. Islam  excludes all that are not apart of their ideology. So did Fascist Nazis. Accept, the Nazis didn't stoop to accept self obliteration as a tool to take over the freakin world. Got to hand Nazis that, Muslims don't seem to have that inhibition. Kudos for NAZIS,  they got that going for them. Muslims not are  only blind extremists,  they also  won't mind  killing innocence people to prove it. I really don't like religion  anyway. But Islam is the cream of the crop, when it comes to  assholes without a clue . Islam? Phtzzl! Bullshit. Come on.


----------



## PixieStix (Jul 17, 2009)

Islam is bigotry defined

Why do people insist that islam is peaceful? Because they either fear it, or they are intentionally ignorant 

The Noble Quran


This translation of the Qur'an seems to be the least watered-down of all the online translations available. It leaves essential Arabic words untranslated, such as _fitnah_ and _Mushrikûn_. I have hosted it here in the _Disbelievers Guide_ because Islamic text, such as certain passages from _Sahih Bukhari_ on USC's Islamic server and _Tafsir Ibn Kathir_, which are potentially damning of Islam, are mysteriously dissapearing from the net, for whatever reason. To download this entire directory to your computer for easy reference, click here.


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## Fatality (Jul 18, 2009)

PixieStix said:


> Islam is bigotry defined
> 
> Why do people insist that islam is peaceful? Because they either fear it, or they are intentionally ignorant
> 
> ...



intentionaly ignorant about sums it up, they are in cahoots (sp?) they have the same goals when their philosophy is understood in its full bloom. you be good girl, peace.


----------



## PixieStix (Jul 18, 2009)

Fatality said:


> PixieStix said:
> 
> 
> > Islam is bigotry defined
> ...


 
I once wrote a short thought about what Islamists and liberals have in common. It was interesting to see the responses. 

I think, according to some I am a hatefilled far right extremist, that is one commonality that they have, and they lie, but for different reasons, but in the end, they all serve allah. Peace


----------



## Mr.Fitnah (Jul 18, 2009)

PixieStix said:


> Fatality said:
> 
> 
> > PixieStix said:
> ...



I think it is progressives more than liberals( marxists: Hillary, Obama, Reid, Bush)
leftist - Google Search


----------



## publicprotector (Jul 18, 2009)

Get rid of Islam and all religion, talk about being backward, who in their right minds think that women should be told they have to cover themselves, be denied education ect. Again this is nothing more than religion keeping people down time to get rid of it all and the fanatics that peddle it.


----------



## Mr.Fitnah (Jul 18, 2009)

I wonder what would happen if a newspaper or a News program were to ask  this question onb a daily basis?


----------



## SW2SILVER (Jul 18, 2009)

Yeah,  so either Allah is giant self aggrandizing unforgiving prick, or his followers think he is, and act accordingly. That is a hell of a religion there, bucko. Or, 9/11 didn't happen, either.  The Jews did it.


----------



## PixieStix (Jul 19, 2009)

SW2SILVER said:


> Islam forbids nothing accept questioning Islam, that is. Islam is about love, unless You aren't Muslim. Jihad means something about self struggle. Mien Kampf means pretty much the same thing. Struggle against WHAT, that is the question. Islam excludes all that are not apart of their ideology. So did Fascist Nazis. Accept, the Nazis didn't stoop to accept self obliteration as a tool to take over the freakin world. Got to hand Nazis that, Muslims don't seem to have that inhibition. Kudos for NAZIS, they got that going for them. Muslims not are only blind extremists, they also won't mind killing innocence people to prove it. I really don't like religion anyway. But Islam is the cream of the crop, when it comes to assholes without a clue . Islam? Phtzzl! Bullshit. Come on.


 
The evidence against Islam, even without the so called "Holy Q'uran" is overwhelming. Our court system of justice would have enough to convict on one act alone. Even without all its propaganda and it's so called peaceful people the evidence damns the religion to hell


----------



## Mr.Fitnah (Jul 19, 2009)

Many muslims like to say "Islam forbids the killing of innocent people", I'm asking for someone to prove unequivocally using Islamic scripture that non muslims are innocent, Thanks for reading my post.


----------



## Mr.Fitnah (Jul 20, 2009)

Nothing yet I'm sorry to report


----------



## Neser Boha (Jul 20, 2009)

Who gives a shit what Islam says or doesn't say and who gives a flying fuck what Christianity or Judaism says (in all cases you can find some appalling shit) ...


----------



## Mr.Fitnah (Jul 20, 2009)

Neser Boha said:


> Who gives a shit what Islam says or doesn't say and who gives a flying fuck what Christianity or Judaism says (in all cases you can find some appalling shit) ...


Many muslims like to say "Islam forbids the killing of innocent people", I'm asking for someone to prove unequivocally using Islamic scripture that non muslims are innocent, Thanks for reading my post.


----------



## Neser Boha (Jul 20, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> Neser Boha said:
> 
> 
> > Who gives a shit what Islam says or doesn't say and who gives a flying fuck what Christianity or Judaism says (in all cases you can find some appalling shit) ...
> ...



And I am asking you, why are we even having all those Islam-related discussions today?  Can you tell me the exact reason why?


----------



## mal (Jul 20, 2009)

Neser Boha said:


> Mr.Fitnah said:
> 
> 
> > Neser Boha said:
> ...



Because you and others have Chosen to Take Part?...



peace...


----------



## Fatality (Jul 20, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> Neser Boha said:
> 
> 
> > Who gives a shit what Islam says or doesn't say and who gives a flying fuck what Christianity or Judaism says (in all cases you can find some appalling shit) ...
> ...



^^


----------



## BrokenAngel (Jul 20, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> > Mr. Fitnah
> ...



To be completely honest.. I'm really not trying to be bitchy here.. but you might as well try to use the Torah to prove Jews are not God's chosen.  Every religion that says it has a chosen people and a chosen way will outline only how to follow that path so it is not a fair question.


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## Neser Boha (Jul 20, 2009)

BrokenAngel said:


> Mr.Fitnah said:
> 
> 
> > Sunni Man said:
> ...



Thank you.  A little injection of common sense is always welcome


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## Mr.Fitnah (Jul 20, 2009)

BrokenAngel said:


> Mr.Fitnah said:
> 
> 
> > Sunni Man said:
> ...


I  think it is a very fair question since the scripture says what it says  and the "muslims talking heads"interviewed on TV  , in newspapers  and  those who speak for Islamic groups all say the same thing ,
"Islam forbids the killing of innocent people"
They must have  a reason to state this is it a deliberate lie , or do they have a scriptural source?


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## Mr.Fitnah (Jul 20, 2009)

BrokenAngel said:


> Mr.Fitnah said:
> 
> 
> > Sunni Man said:
> ...


How familure are you with Islamic scripture?
Do you know a great deal of it is a polemic  of Jew and Christians.


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## Kalam (Jul 20, 2009)

You linked me to this thread. Why?


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## Liability (Jul 20, 2009)

Kalam said:


> You linked me to this thread. Why?



Kalam probably doesn't realize that he has failed to identify the person he seems to think he's addressing.  Shhh.

Nobody tell him.


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## Kalam (Jul 20, 2009)

Liability said:


> Kalam said:
> 
> 
> > You linked me to this thread. Why?
> ...



I assumed that most posters here were keen enough to deduce that my post was either addressed to the individual directly above it or to the OP. In this case, they happen to be the same person. Do you see where this is going, or do I need to spell things out for you?


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## Fatality (Jul 20, 2009)

there must be something in the koran or other accepted material that proves beyond all doubt that non-muhammdans are innocent people

this should not be a problem to prove for those who insist that "islam forbids the killing of innocent people"


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## Mr.Fitnah (Jul 20, 2009)

Kalam said:


> You linked me to this thread. Why?


I have already explained your purpose.


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## Kalam (Jul 20, 2009)

Fatality said:


> there must be something in the koran or other accepted material that proves beyond all doubt that non-muhammdans are innocent people


You want me to quote Qur'anic scripture saying that non-Muslims are innocent merely by virtue of their being non-Islamic? Does that not seem like an illogical thing for the Qur'an to say, Mr. al-Kafir?


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## Kalam (Jul 20, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> Kalam said:
> 
> 
> > You linked me to this thread. Why?
> ...



Given the quality of discussion I've encountered in this thread so far, I'm out of here unless you give me a better reason to stay than this.


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## Mr.Fitnah (Jul 20, 2009)

Kalam said:


> Fatality said:
> 
> 
> > there must be something in the koran or other accepted material that proves beyond all doubt that non-muhammdans are innocent people
> ...


One would assume that the Quran  and other Islamic scripture would be the source of Islamic thought.
Since many muslims like to say Islam forbids the killing of innocent people ,
Islam denounces terrorism.com
It is reasonable to try to determine  who exactly they are speaking of These innocent people.


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## Kalam (Jul 20, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> Kalam said:
> 
> 
> > Fatality said:
> ...



Presumably it refers to killing any person who hasn't committed murder or some similarly heinous crime, as mentioned by Moses (AS) in 18:74. The definition of innocent could be extended further to encompass all people who have not initiated hostilities. This is based on the message of non-aggression, holding true to pacts, and purely defensive retaliation described in 2:190, 2:194, 9:1, 9:4, 9:7, 26:227, 42:39, 42:41, and elsewhere. Islam does not permit aggression or the initiation of hostilities in general.


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## Mr.Fitnah (Jul 20, 2009)

Kalam said:


> Mr.Fitnah said:
> 
> 
> > Kalam said:
> ...



Do you have  any links to opinions  from an imam,ayatollah, sheik ,mufti or trusted advisor you would like to link to to verify the opinion you hold?


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## Kalam (Jul 20, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> Kalam said:
> 
> 
> > Mr.Fitnah said:
> ...





I've provided you with claims and specific Qur'anic verses that support them. I study the Qur'an - I don't need a rhetorician's opinion to validate what I already know to be true and what I have already corroborated for you with scripture. Do you have any other weak attempts to dodge my points that you'd like to use?


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## Mr.Fitnah (Jul 20, 2009)

And according to Islam only allah has the right to  be worshiped?
Would it be wrong according to Islam to disbelieve?


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## Mr.Fitnah (Jul 20, 2009)

By the by ,do you happen to have  the meaning  of the word AL-Zulm derived for the word Zalama


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## Kalam (Jul 21, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> And according to Islam only allah has the right to  be worshiped?
> Would it be wrong according to Islam to disbelieve?


Yes, but disbelief per se is not a punishable crime. See 109:1-6, 18:29, 10:99, etc.


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## Kalam (Jul 21, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> By the by ,do you happen to have  the meaning  of the word AL-Zulm derived for the word Zalama



"Oppression" or, less concisely, "denial of rights." Why?


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## Mr.Fitnah (Jul 21, 2009)

Kalam said:


> Mr.Fitnah said:
> 
> 
> > And according to Islam only allah has the right to  be worshiped?
> ...


So denying  allahs right to be worshiped by worshiping others  is no big deal in Islam?
Suggestion allah should not be worshiped is no big deal in Islam?
 telling people Mohammad was not a prophet  of god is no big deal in Islam?
Or does  all that fall under a different category than disbelief?


----------



## Mr.Fitnah (Jul 21, 2009)

Kalam said:


> Mr.Fitnah said:
> 
> 
> > By the by ,do you happen to have  the meaning  of the word AL-Zulm derived for the word Zalama
> ...


The word Al-Zulm (oppression) is opposite to the word Al-A'del (justice) and is derived linguistically from the word Zalama which means the following: 
Injustice, Darkness, Aggression, Doing the Inappropriate and Preventing a right etc.


The Definition of Al-Zulm or Oppression In Juristic Terminology: Al-I'tidaa Ala Al-Huqouq Bedoun Wajih Shar'ie - Aggression against Rights without a Divine Permit.


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## Mr.Fitnah (Jul 21, 2009)

From the Quran 

[8:39] And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and polytheism: i.e. worshipping others besides Allah) and the religion (worship) will all be for Allah Alone [in the whole of the world]. But if they cease (worshipping others besides Allah), then certainly, Allah is All-Seer of what they do.

2:193. And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allâh) and (all and every kind of) worship is for Allâh (Alone).[] But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against Az-Zâlimûn (the polytheists, and wrong-doers, etc.)

Az-zalimun  one who does zulm

The word Al-Zulm (oppression) is opposite to the word Al-A'del (justice) and is derived linguistically from the word Zalama which means the following: 
Injustice, Darkness, Aggression, Doing the Inappropriate and Preventing a right etc.

one who does wrong things, inappropriate things, like disbelief.


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## Kalam (Jul 21, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> Kalam said:
> 
> 
> > Mr.Fitnah said:
> ...



So precisely what I said. The transliteration through me off for a second, by the way; it's difficult for me as a non-native student of Arabic to determine at first glance whether "z" refers to &#1586; or &#1592;. In this case it was the latter, which could more properly be represented (in my opinion) by "dh".

Anyway, what was the point of this?


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## Mr.Fitnah (Jul 21, 2009)

Kalam said:


> Mr.Fitnah said:
> 
> 
> > Kalam said:
> ...


So if one where to deny allahs right to be worshiped, according to the definition you just agreed , would be an act of aggression.
Correct?


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## Kalam (Jul 21, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> Az-zalimun  one who does zulm


Which, as we have established, means "oppression," "injustice," or "denial of rights."



Mr.Fitnah said:


> one who does wrong things, inappropriate things, like disbelief.


Once again, you are incorrect, because once again, you refer to an inaccurate translation with controversial and radical additions by its author. _Zalimeen _or _zalimuun _are, literally, "oppressors," "perpetrators of injustice," and "deniers of rights." If the passage had referred to disbelievers, _kafiruun _would have been used to describe them. Mere disbelief does not qualify as _zulm_ because it does not intrinsically involve harming others. If a person's disbelief drives them to rob Muslims of their freedom of worship, however, they are oppressors.


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## Kalam (Jul 21, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> Kalam said:
> 
> 
> > Mr.Fitnah said:
> ...


Incorrect. A human being is not capable of deny Allah any "rights." There is no physical punishment for shortcomings in one's relationship with Allah; that is settled by Allah, not by man. If one were to deny the right of others to worship Allah, on the other hand, it would be an act of aggression.


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## Mr.Fitnah (Jul 21, 2009)

Kalam said:


> Mr.Fitnah said:
> 
> 
> > Az-zalimun  one who does zulm
> ...



So one would have to  make a muslim aware of his disbelief , then he would be a denier of rightsm a perpetrator of injustice an oppressor .


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## Kalam (Jul 21, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> Kalam said:
> 
> 
> > Mr.Fitnah said:
> ...


No, one would have to practice one's disbelief in a way that clearly limited Muslims' freedom to worship. China's somewhat recent attempt to force mosques to close and prevent Muslims' access to religious facilities would be an example of "oppression." Declaring oneself a disbeliever in Islam and living a non-Islamic lifestyle does a Muslim no intrinsic harm and would simply be "disbelief."


----------



## Mr.Fitnah (Jul 21, 2009)

Kalam said:


> Mr.Fitnah said:
> 
> 
> > Kalam said:
> ...


What about denying mohammad was a prophet of  any god?
would that be an act of aggression?


----------



## Kalam (Jul 21, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> Kalam said:
> 
> 
> > Mr.Fitnah said:
> ...



Not inherently. Hence the multitude of agreements between Muhammad himself and groups of disbelievers.


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## Mr.Fitnah (Jul 21, 2009)

So you disagree with  the Quran 2:217
 They ask you concerning fighting in the Sacred Months (i.e. 1st, 7th, 11th and 12th months of the Islâmic calendar).

 Say, "Fighting therein is a great (transgression)[] but a greater (transgression) with Allâh is to prevent mankind from following the Way of Allâh,
 to disbelieve in Him,
disbelieve in Him
disbelieve in Him
disbelieve in Him
 to prevent access to Al-Masjid-al-Harâm (at Makkah),
 and to drive out its inhabitants, and Al-Fitnah[] is worse than killing.
 And they will never cease fighting you until they turn you back from your religion (Islâmic Monotheism) if they can. 

And whosoever of you turns back from his religion and dies as a disbeliever, then his deeds will be lost in this life and in the Hereafter, and they will be the dwellers of the Fire. They will abide therein forever."

http://www.ummah.net/what-is-islam/quran/noble/nobe002.htm


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## Mr.Fitnah (Jul 21, 2009)

Kalam said:


> Mr.Fitnah said:
> 
> 
> > Kalam said:
> ...


Isnt the standard fitnah, and not limiting a muslims freedom to worship.

2:193.  
And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allâh) and (all and every kind of) worship is for Allâh (Alone).[] But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against Az-Zâlimûn (the polytheists, and wrong-doers, etc.)  
The Noble Quran : Surat 2


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## Kalam (Jul 21, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> So you disagree with  the Quran 2:217


No. 

_"...but a greater (transgression) with Allâh is to prevent mankind from following the Way of Allâh, to disbelieve in Him, to prevent access to Al-Masjid-al-Harâm (at Makkah),
*and *to drive out its inhabitants..."_​
The transgression described in this passage involves doing each and every one of these things, hence the use of "and" rather than "or."


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## Kalam (Jul 21, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> Kalam said:
> 
> 
> > Mr.Fitnah said:
> ...


I have already explained to you that your translation is dreadfully inaccurate. "Fitnah" is not a synonym for disbelief. Your translator's parenthetical additions are misleading and are a textbook example of the type of false interpretation described in 3:7.


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## Mr.Fitnah (Jul 21, 2009)

Kalam said:


> Mr.Fitnah said:
> 
> 
> > So you disagree with  the Quran 2:217
> ...


Are you  a speaker of the Quraish dialec?


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## Mr.Fitnah (Jul 21, 2009)

37&#8211; MAKING WRONG INTERPRETATION OF THE QUR&#8217;AN

&#8220;Tafsir&#8221; means informing and discovering. It is the process of informing and explaining. &#8220;Tawil&#8221; means pulling back or escaping. &#8220;Tafsir &#8220; comes to mean giving a meaning. &#8220;Tawil&#8221; is selection of one of the meaning among many meanings. It is not permissible (Jaiz) to make &#8220;Tafsir&#8221; according to one&#8217;s own opinion. &#8220;Tafsir&#8221; is performed according to the rules of transmission (&#8220;Riwayat&#8221; or &#8220;Nakl&#8221. On the other hand, &#8220;Tawil&#8221; is done according to one&#8217;s knowledge and capabilities. In one hadith, Rasulullah, peace be upon him, said, &#8220;A person who interprets the Qur&#8217;an according to his own opinion is in clear error even if he is right.&#8221;

ETHICS OF ISLAM


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## Mr.Fitnah (Jul 21, 2009)

Shirk is worse than Killing 





Since Jihad involves killing and shedding the blood of men, Allah indicated that these men are committing disbelief in Allah, associating with Him (in the worship) and hindering from His path, and this is a much greater evil and more disastrous than killing. Abu Malik commented about what Allah said:


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(And Al-Fitnah is worse than killing.) Meaning what you (disbelievers) are committing is much worse than killing.'' Abu Al-`Aliyah, Mujahid, Sa`id bin Jubayr, `Ikrimah, Al-Hasan, Qatadah, Ad-Dahhak and Ar-Rabi` bin Anas said that what Allah said:


&#64831;&#1608;&#1614;&#1575;&#1604;&#1618;&#1601;&#1616;&#1578;&#1618;&#1606;&#1614;&#1577;&#1615; &#1571;&#1614;&#1588;&#1614;&#1583;&#1617;&#1615; &#1605;&#1616;&#1606;&#1614; &#1575;&#1604;&#1618;&#1602;&#1614;&#1578;&#1618;&#1604;&#1616;&#64830;


(And Al-Fitnah is worse than killing.) "Shirk (polytheism) is worse than killing.''


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## Mr.Fitnah (Jul 21, 2009)

I appreciat your efforts, 
I think  that will be all for today,  we can investigate 5:32 and mischief in the future.

5:32. Because of that We ordained for the Children of Israel that if anyone killed a person not in retaliation of murder, or (and) to spread mischief in the land - it would be as if he killed all mankind, and if anyone saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of all mankind. And indeed, there came to them Our Messengers with clear proofs, evidences, and signs, even then after that many of them continued to exceed the limits (e.g. by doing oppression unjustly and exceeding beyond the limits set by Allâh by committing the major sins) in the land!


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## Mr.Fitnah (Jul 21, 2009)

Meaning of Mischief 





In his Tafsir, As-Suddi said that Ibn `Abbas and Ibn Mas`ud commented,


&#64831;&#1608;&#1614;&#1573;&#1616;&#1584;&#1614;&#1575; &#1602;&#1616;&#1610;&#1604;&#1614; &#1604;&#1614;&#1607;&#1615;&#1605;&#1618; &#1604;&#1575;&#1614; &#1578;&#1615;&#1601;&#1618;&#1587;&#1616;&#1583;&#1615;&#1608;&#1575;&#1618; &#1601;&#1616;&#1609; &#1575;&#1604;&#1571;&#1614;&#1585;&#1618;&#1590;&#1616; &#1602;&#1614;&#1575;&#1604;&#1615;&#1608;&#1575;&#1618; &#1573;&#1616;&#1606;&#1617;&#1614;&#1605;&#1614;&#1575; &#1606;&#1614;&#1581;&#1618;&#1606;&#1615; &#1605;&#1615;&#1589;&#1618;&#1604;&#1616;&#1581;&#1615;&#1608;&#1606;&#1614; &#64830;


(And when it is said to them: "Do not make mischief on the earth,'' they say: "We are only peacemakers.'') "They are the hypocrites. As for,


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("Do not make mischief on the earth''), that is disbelief and acts of disobedience.'' Abu Ja`far said that Ar-Rabi` bin Anas said that Abu Al-`Aliyah said that Allah's statement,


&#64831;&#1608;&#1614;&#1573;&#1616;&#1584;&#1614;&#1575; &#1602;&#1616;&#1610;&#1604;&#1614; &#1604;&#1614;&#1607;&#1615;&#1605;&#1618; &#1604;&#1575;&#1614; &#1578;&#1615;&#1601;&#1618;&#1587;&#1616;&#1583;&#1615;&#1608;&#1575;&#1618; &#1601;&#1616;&#1609; &#1575;&#1604;&#1571;&#1614;&#1585;&#1618;&#1590;&#1616;&#64830;


(And when it is said to them: "Do not make mischief on the earth,''), means, "Do not commit acts of disobedience on the earth. Their mischief is disobeying Allah, because whoever disobeys Allah on the earth, or commands that Allah be disobeyed, he has committed mischief on the earth. Peace on both the earth and in the heavens is ensured (and earned) through obedience (to Allah).'' Ar-Rabi` bin Anas and Qatadah said similarly.


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## Liability (Jul 21, 2009)

Kalam said:


> Liability said:
> 
> 
> > Kalam said:
> ...



That is often the case.  Not always.  In any event, it still looks like you are merely hearing voices and talking to them.

I already know where you are going.  YOu have no special ability  to point out anything except your own view of the many contradictory things said in your religion.  And when you are challenged in any way by anybody, your resort to that one interpretation is quite telling.  

Sadly for you, numerous Islamic scholars find many many areas of disagreement in interpretation throughout the Quar'an.  It could be that your one view is the only view worthy of consideration.  But it could also be that you are merely trying to evade the contradictions without having to deal with the consequences of acknowledging them.


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## Mr.Fitnah (Jul 21, 2009)

Kalam said:


> Mr.Fitnah said:
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> > Kalam said:
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The translation by Muhammad Khan is distributed by King Fahd Complex for the Printing of the Holy QuranThe Custodian of the Two Holy Mosques.
Take it up with them they have had decades to correct the "error"had they been aware of it. Im sure they will be happy to hear from you.


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## Mr.Fitnah (Jul 21, 2009)

Kalam said:


> Mr.Fitnah said:
> 
> 
> > Kalam said:
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Meanings of the word fitnah in the Quraan
I see the word fitnah repeated often in the Quraan in several soorahs and aayahs. Is there a difference in the meanings of this word, and what are its various meanings?

Praise be to Allaah.  
Definition of fitnah: 

1  The word fitnah from a linguistic point of view: 

Al-Azhari said: The Arabic word fitnah includes meanings of testing and trial. The root is taken from the phrase fatantu al-fiddah wal-dhahab (I assayed (tested the quality of) the silver and gold), meaning I melted the metals to separate the bad from the good. Similarly, Allaah says in the Quraan (interpretation of the meaning): (It will be) a Day when they will be tried [yuftanoona] (punished, i.e. burnt) over the Fire! [al-Dhaariyaat 51:13], meaning, burning them with fire. (Tahdheeb al-Lughah, 14/196). 

Ibn Faaris said: Fa-ta-na is a sound root which indicates testing or trial. (Maqaayees al-Lughah, 4/472). This is the basic meaning of the word fitnah in Arabic. 

Ibn al-Atheer said: Fitnah: trial or test The word is often used to describe tests in which something disliked is eliminated. Later it was also often used in the sense of sin, kufr (disbelief), fighting, burning, removing and diverting. (al-Nihaayah, 3/410. Ibn Hajar said something similar in al-Fath, 13/3). 

Ibn al-Araabi summed up the meanings of fitnah when he said: Fitnah means testing, fitnah means trial, fitnah means wealth, fitnah means children, fitnah means kufr, fitnah means differences of opinion among people, fitnah means burning with fire. (Lisaan al-Arab by Ibn Manzoor). 

2  Meanings of the word fitnah in the Quraan and Sunnah: 
Islam Question and Answer - Meanings of the word fitnah in the Qur&#8217;aan


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## Mr.Fitnah (Jul 21, 2009)

Kalam said:


> I have already explained to you that your translation is dreadfully inaccurate. "Fitnah" is not a synonym for disbelief. Your translator's parenthetical additions are misleading and are a textbook example of the type of false interpretation described in 3:7.


2  Meanings of the word fitnah in the Quraan and Sunnah: 

1-     Testing and trial, as in the aayah (interpretation of the meaning):

Do people think that they will be left alone because they say: We believe, and will not be tested [la yuftanoon] [al-Ankaboot 29:2]

i.e., that they will not be subjected to trial, as Ibn Jareer said. 

2-     Blocking the way and turning people away, as in the aayah (interpretation of the meaning):

but beware of them lest they turn you [yaftinooka] (O Muhammad) far away from some of that which Allaah has sent down to you [al-Maaidah 5:49]

Al-Qurtubi said: this means blocking your way and turning you away.         

3-     Persecution, as in the aayah (interpretation of the meaning):

Then, verily, your Lord for those who emigrated after they had been put to trials [futinoo] and thereafter strove hard and fought (for the Cause of Allaah) and were patient, verily, your Lord afterward is, Oft&#8209;Forgiving, Most Merciful [al-Nahl 16:110]

Put to trial means persecuted. 

4-     Shirk and kufr, as in the aayah (interpretation of the meaning):

And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allaah) [al-Baqarah 2:193]

Ibn Katheer said: this means shirk (worshipping others besides Allaah). 

5-     Falling into sin and hypocrisy, as in the aayah (interpretation of the meaning):

(The hypocrites) will call the believers: Were we not with you? The believers will reply: Yes! But you led yourselves into temptations [fatantum anfusakum], you looked forward for our destruction; you doubted (in Faith) and you were deceived by false desires [al-Hadeed 57:14]

Al-Baghawi said: i.e., you made yourselves fall into hypocrisy and you destroyed yourselves by means of sin and whims and desires. 

6-     Confusing truth with falsehood, as in the aayah (interpretation of the meaning):

And those who disbelieve are allies of one another, (and) if you (Muslims of the whole world collectively) do not do so [i.e. become allies, as one united block under one Khaleefah (a chief Muslim ruler for the whole Muslim world) to make victorious Allaahs religion of Islamic Monotheism], there will be Fitnah (wars, battles, polytheism) and oppression on the earth, and a great mischief and corruption (appearance of polytheism)[al-Anfaal 6:73]

What this means is that unless believers are taken as close friends instead of disbelievers, even if they are relatives, there will be fitnah on earth, i.e., truth will be confused with falsehood. This is how it is explained in Jaami al-Bayaan by Ibn Jareer. 

7-     Misguidance, as in the aayah (interpretation of the meaning):

And whomsoever Allaah wants to put in Al&#8209;Fitnah (error, because of his rejecting of Faith), you can do nothing for him against Allaah [al-Maa'idah 5:41]

The meaning of fitnah here is misguidance. Al-Bahr al-Muheet by Abu Hayaan, 4/262. 

8-     Killing and taking prisoners, as in the aayah (interpretation of the meaning):

if you fear that the disbelievers may put you in trial [yaftinakum] (attack you)

[al-Nisa 4:101]

This refers to the kaafirs attacking the Muslims whilst they are praying and prostrating, in order to kill them or take them prisoner, as stated by Ibn Jareer. 

9-     Difference among people and lack of agreement, as in the aayah (interpretation of the meaning):

and they would have hurried about in your midst (spreading corruption) and sowing sedition among you [yabghoonakum al-fitnah] [al-Tawbah 9:47]

i.e., they would have stirred up differences amongst you, as it says in al-Kashshaaf, 2/277. 

10-Insanity, as in the aayah (interpretation of the meaning):

Which of you is afflicted with madness (maftoon) [al-Qalam 68:6] Here it means madness. 

11-Burning with fire, as in the aayah (interpretation of the meaning):

Verily, those who put into trial [fatanoo] the believing men and believing women (by torturing them and burning them)[al-Burooj 85:10]

Ibn Hajar said: the meaning may be understood from the context. (al-Fath 11/176) 

Note: 

Ibn al-Qayyim (may Allaah have mercy on him) said: With regard to the fitnah which Allaah attributes to Himself or which His Messenger attributes to Him, as in the aayah (interpretation of the meaning), Thus We have tried [fatannaa] some of them with others [al-Anaam 6:53] and the words of Moosa, It is only Your trial [fitnatuka] by which You lead astray whom You will [al-Araaf 7:155  interpretation of the meaning], that carries a different meaning, which is a test or trial from Allaah to His slaves by means of good things and bad, blessings and calamities. This is one thing; the fitnah of the mushrikeen is another thing; the fitnah or trial of the believer by means of his wealth, children and neighbour is another thing; the fitnah (tribulation, differences) that happen amongst the Muslims, like the fitnah that happened between the supporters of Ali and Muawiyah, and between him and the people of the camel, and between Muslims when they fight one another or boycott one another, is another thing. (Zaad al-Maaad, vol. 3, p. 170).

Sheikh Muhammed Salih Al-Munajjid


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## Kalam (Jul 21, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> Kalam said:
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I don't need to to know that "and" = &#1608; and "or" = &#1571;&#1608;.

Are you at all familiar with classical Arabic, the language of the Qur'an?


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## Kalam (Jul 21, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> Meaning of Mischief
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Meaningless.


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## Kalam (Jul 21, 2009)

Liability said:


> I already know where you are going.  YOu have no special ability  to point out anything except your own view of the many contradictory things said in your religion.


When my opponents are reduced to copying and pasting the unsubstantiated opinions of others, I take it as a sign that my arguments are at least somewhat effective. Individuals like Fitnah make the mistake of assuming that I'm unfamiliar with my own religion and that I place weight on the opinions of two-bit scholars and distorters of the Qur'an.



Liability said:


> And when you are challenged in any way by anybody, your resort to that one interpretation is quite telling.


Why would I resort to an interpretation besides my own?



Liability said:


> Sadly for you, numerous Islamic scholars find many many areas of disagreement in interpretation throughout the Quar'an.


Again, my beliefs are based on the words of the Qur'an. If a scholar happens to agree with me, great, but I wouldn't care if every single one of them thought differently.



Liability said:


> It could be that your one view is the only view worthy of consideration.  But it could also be that you are merely trying to evade the contradictions without having to deal with the consequences of acknowledging them.


If I thought that I was incorrect regarding abrogation, I would not be a Muslim.


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## Kalam (Jul 21, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> The translation by Muhammad Khan is distributed by King Fahd Complex for the Printing of the Holy QuranThe Custodian of the Two Holy Mosques.


Which is precisely why it's inaccurate: it reflects the opinions of radical Wahhabi heretics. 

The best and most accurate translations are probably Pickthall's and, of course, Maulana Muhammad Ali's. Perhaps reading one of their works will cure your King Fahd Complex. 



Mr.Fitnah said:


> Take it up with them they have had decades to correct the "error"had they been aware of it. Im sure they will be happy to hear from you.


So has every other translator, most of whom seem to be at odds with the Wahhabis.


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## Mr.Fitnah (Jul 21, 2009)

Kalam said:


> Mr.Fitnah said:
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No,I dont need to be to read the documents, if the custodian of the Two Holy Mosques wished the meaning to be something other than what they print  they have had ample opportunity to make the correction.
If you have a scholarly source that backs up your position  link to it.


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## Mr.Fitnah (Jul 21, 2009)

Kalam said:


> Mr.Fitnah said:
> 
> 
> > The translation by Muhammad Khan is distributed by King Fahd Complex for the Printing of the Holy QuranThe Custodian of the Two Holy Mosques.
> ...


I find the Nobel Quran  translation to be the most accurate as it does not white wash or impart  bias by trying to translate into english words that cannot be directly translated .
Islam is radical,  their is nothing unislamic about  wahhabi thought


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## Kalam (Jul 21, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> I find the Nobel Quran  translation to be the most accurate as it does not white wash or impart  bias by trying to translate into english words that cannot be directly translated .
> Islam is radical,  their is nothing unislamic about  wahhabi thought



You like it because it conveniently reinforces your preconceived notions of Islam being a radical religion. Wahhabism is un-Islamic through and through, but what's the point of attempting to demonstrate that to you when you're so persistent in clinging to your illogical prejudice? You don't know if your favored translation is accurate and you don't care. It's "the best" because it allows you to rationalize your bigotry.


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## Mr.Fitnah (Jul 21, 2009)

Kalam said:


> Mr.Fitnah said:
> 
> 
> > I find the Nobel Quran  translation to be the most accurate as it does not white wash or impart  bias by trying to translate into english words that cannot be directly translated .
> ...


I have real translatation by Yusuf ali's:as well as  pickthal , shakir, N.J. Dawood.
 Do not think  the people who commit acts of evangelic jihad to inspire others to join the caravan are reading  a translation  I believe they are reading a Quran  printed in arabic  and Im fairly sure it come from the same place as mine.
I first began to study  Islam after hearing Islam had been hijacked and twisted  ,I never heard the details, so I sought to find them so I could  defend Islam form bigots.
After a full year of study I could no longer remain silent,
You  are wasting your opportunity to present  coherent defense of Islam by attacking  Islamic fundementalist .
That doesn't help your case, It just proves you are a member of a deviant sect, practicing bidah


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## Mr.Fitnah (Jul 21, 2009)

Advice to those who do not recognize the Salafi scholars and call them Wahhaabis
what do you say to those who do not acknowledge (for whatever reason) the scholars of today such as shaikh Uthaymeen, shaykh bin Baaz raheemahullah, shaykh Al-Albaani raheemahullah?  a few call them wahabi and say that these scholars follow a new sect rather than the universal deen of al-Islam that was followed by all the major scholars of the past.

Praise be to Allaah. 

The Muslim is obliged to accept the teachings of Islam, and act upon them. When he hears of some word or deed which is based on evidence (daleel) from the Qur&#8217;aan or Sunnah, then he has to accept it and give it priority over anything else. He should check what people say against the evidence of sharee&#8217;ah, and only accept those views which are in accordance with that evidence. It is known that Shaykh Muhammad ibn &#8216;Abd Al-Wahhaab (may Allaah have mercy on him) called people to Tawheed and he wrote his famous book on that topic which is called Kitaab al-Tawheed. In this book he limited himself to quoting only the clear evidence from the verses of the Qur&#8217;aan and the saheeh ahaadeeth of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him). 

Commentaries on this book were written by his grandson &#8216;Abd al-Rahmaan ibn Hasan and other scholars. Hence none of his opponents can refute this book or claim that his evidence is false. They fabricated lies and believed them, so they believed that he was misguided. They gave the same label to the scholars of the Muslims such as Shaykh Ibn Baaz and Shaykh al-Albaani (may Allaah have mercy on them both). 

It is known that the shaykhs whom we have mentioned did not deviate from  the correct view with regard to beliefs and actions; they followed the same path as the Sahaabah and Taabi&#8217;een, the four imaams, the authors of the Six Books and others. Those who do not acknowledge them do that either out of ignorance, blind imitation of others, jealousy, stubbornness or following their own whims and desires, or adherence to traditions, bid&#8217;ah (innovation) and evil actions that go against the evidence (of sharee&#8217;ah).  Earlier and later scholars have proven such people to be wrong. So we must follow the evidence and give it priority over the views of all people. 


Shaykh Ibn Jibreen

Islam Question and Answer - Advice to those who do not recognize the Salafi scholars and call them Wahhaabis


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## Mr.Fitnah (Jul 21, 2009)

Who are the Wahhaabis and what is their message?
i have recently come to islam and people have told me to stay away from wahabis, who are they and wht do they preech?  

Praise be to Allaah.

It is obligatory upon the Muslim to follow the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), according to the way of the righteous salaf who followed the guidance of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), the Sahaabah and those who followed them &#8211; may Allaah be pleased with them all. These people are called Ahl al-Sunnah wa&#8217;l-Jamaa&#8217;ah (the People of the Sunnah and the Community).

 Everyone who follows the way brought by the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) is one of them. The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) brought the message of Tawheed (absolute Oneness of Allaah) and rejection of shirk (polytheism, or association of others with Allaah); he called people to worship Allaah alone and none other. With regard to the word &#8220;Wahhaabis&#8221;, some people use this word to refer to the message of Shaykh Muhammad ibn &#8216;Abd al-Wahhaab ibn Sulaymaan al-Tameemi al-Hanbali (may Allaah have mercy on him), and they call him and his followers Wahhaabis.

 Everyone who has any knowledge of the movement of Shaykh Muhammad ibn &#8216;Abd al-Wahhaab (may Allaah have mercy on him) and his message knows that he sought to spread the message of pure Tawheed and to warn against shirk in all its forms, such as attachment to the dead, or to trees and rocks, etc. In his &#8216;aqeedah (belief), he was following the way of the righteous Salaf and the Taabi&#8217;een [i.e., the earliest generations of Islam], as is indicated by his books and fatwas, and the books of his followers among his sons and grandsons and others. All of these books are in print and are in circulation among the people.

 His message was in accordance with the Book of Allaah and the Sunnah of His Messenger (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him). Wahhaabism is not a new way or a new school of thought; rather it is a call to Tawheed and the revival of aspects of the religion that had been forgotten. What you have to do is to beware of those who warn you against the Wahhaabis, because they are warning you against following the truth and the early generation of this ummah. Applying the word &#8220;Wahhaabis&#8221; to those who adhere to correct belief and warning people against them is the way of the ignorant and biased. We ask Allaah to keep you safe and sound. 

See Fataawa al-Shaykh Ibn Baaz (may Allaah have mercy on him), 3/1206; see also Question # 12203. And Allaah knows best/ 

Islam Q&A 
Sheikh Muhammed Salih Al-Munajjid

Islam Question and Answer - Who are the Wahhaabis and what is their message?


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## Sunni Man (Jul 21, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> Kalam said:
> 
> 
> > Mr.Fitnah said:
> ...


LOL!!!

Kalam, what so called Mr. Fitnah is saying.

Is that if you don't agree with his version of what Islam is about. 

(mainly, a radical fundamentalist version that is in his mind)

Then you are practicing innovation and are a heretic!!


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## Kalam (Jul 21, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> I have real translatation by Yusuf ali's:as well as  pickthal , shakir, N.J. Dawood.


Shakir's is an almost direct plagiarization of M. M. Ali's. I suggest you read that as well as his commentary. 



Mr.Fitnah said:


> Do not think  the people who commit acts of evangelic jihad to inspire others to join the caravan are reading  a translation  I believe they are reading a Quran  printed in arabic  and Im fairly sure it come from the same place as mine.


They're fed false interpretations by fools like the Wahhabis you seem to be so fond of. 



Mr.Fitnah said:


> I first began to study  Islam after hearing Islam had been hijacked and twisted  ,I never heard the details, so I sought to find them so I could  defend Islam form bigots.



I take it you began your noble endeavor by referring to scholarly resources such as "answering Islam" and "jihad watch."



Mr.Fitnah said:


> After a full year of study I could no longer remain silent,


Wow, a _whole _year, huh? 



Mr.Fitnah said:


> You  are wasting your opportunity to present  coherent defense of Islam by attacking  Islamic fundementalist .


"Fundamentalist" is a misnomer - it implies that they actually abide by the basic tenets of the religion, which they don't. Unfortunately few "fundamentalists" show up here and I'm stuck dealing with armchair scholars such as yourself.



Mr.Fitnah said:


> That doesn't help your case, It just proves you are a member of a deviant sect,


So what? If my sect is deviant in its view of Qur'anic primacy, that is a sad reflection on the state of Islam today - not on us. 



Mr.Fitnah said:


> practicing bidah


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## Kalam (Jul 21, 2009)

Sunni Man said:


> Mr.Fitnah said:
> 
> 
> > Kalam said:
> ...



Radicals and their supporters like Mr. Fitnah are similar in that respect.


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## Mr.Fitnah (Jul 21, 2009)

Many muslims like to say "Islam forbids the killing of innocent people", I'm asking for someone to prove unequivocally using Islamic scripture that non muslims are innocent, Thanks for reading my post.


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## Kalam (Jul 21, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> Many muslims like to say "Islam forbids the killing of innocent people", I'm asking for someone to prove unequivocally using Islamic scripture that non muslims are innocent, Thanks for reading my post.



I have shown using Qur'anic scripture that Islam forbids any initiation of hostilities. This includes hostilities against non-Muslims. You are welcome.


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## Anguille (Jul 21, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> Many muslims like to say "Islam forbids the killing of innocent people", I'm asking for someone to prove unequivocally using Islamic scripture that non muslims are innocent, Thanks for reading my post.


Your posts have unequivocally  proven to me that you have no idea what you are talking about. Thanks for reading my post.


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## Mr.Fitnah (Jul 21, 2009)

Kalam said:


> Mr.Fitnah said:
> 
> 
> > Many muslims like to say "Islam forbids the killing of innocent people", I'm asking for someone to prove unequivocally using Islamic scripture that non muslims are innocent, Thanks for reading my post.
> ...


Thank you, I  have provided contrary interprations and clarifications for the  most universally respected scholars whom you reject out of hand.

Dar-us-Salam Authors/Compilers
Biography of Hafiz Ibn Kathir
Author of Tafsir Ibn Kathir
Overview: Ibn Kathir's Teachers | Ibn Kathir's Students | Ibn Kathir's Books | Ibn Kathir's Death

By the Honored Shaykh `Abdul-Qadir Al-Arna'ut, may Allah protect him.

He is the respected Imam, Abu Al-Fida', `Imad Ad-Din Isma il bin 'Umar bin Kathir Al-Qurashi Al-Busrawi - Busraian in origin; Dimashqi in training, learning and residence.

Ibn Kathir was born in the city of Busra in 701 H. His father was the Friday speaker of the village, but he died while Ibn Kathir was only four years old. Ibn Kathir's brother, Shaykh Abdul-Wahhab, reared him and taught him until he moved to Damascus in 706 H., when he was five years old.

Ibn Kathir's Teachers
Ibn Kathir studied Fiqh - Islamic jurisprudence - with Burhan Ad-Din, Ibrahim bin `Abdur-Rahman Al-Fizari, known as Ibn Al-Firkah (who died in 729 H). Ibn Kathir heard Hadiths from `Isa bin Al-Mutim, Ahmad bin Abi Talib, (Ibn Ash-Shahnah) (who died in 730 H), Ibn Al-Hajjar, (who died in 730 H), and the Hadith narrator of Ash-Sham (modern day Syria and surrounding areas); Baha Ad-Din Al-Qasim bin Muzaffar bin `Asakir (who died in 723 H), and Ibn Ash-Shirdzi, Ishaq bin Yahya Al-Ammuddi, also known as `Afif Ad-Din, the Zahiriyyah Shaykh who died in 725 H, and Muhammad bin Zarrad. He remained with Jamal Ad-Din, Yusuf bin Az-Zaki AlMizzi who died in 724 H, he benefited from his knowledge and also married his daughter. He also read with Shaykh Al-Islam, Taqi Ad-Din Ahmad bin `Abdul-Halim bin `Abdus-Salam bin Taymiyyah who died in 728 H. He also read with the Imam Hafiz and historian Shams Ad-Din, Muhammad bin Ahmad bin Uthman bin Qaymaz Adh-Dhahabi, who died in 748 H. Also, Abu Musa Al-Qarafai, Abu Al-Fath Ad-Dabbusi and 'Ali bin `Umar As-Suwani and others who gave him permission to transmit the knowledge he learned with them in Egypt.

In his book, Al-Mu jam Al-Mukhtas, Al-Hafiz Adh-Dhaliabi wrote that Ibn Kathir was, "The Imam, scholar of jurisprudence, skillful scholar of Hadith, renowned Fagih and scholar of Tafsir who wrote several beneficial books."

Further, in Ad-Durar Al-Kdminah, Al-Hafiz Ibn Hajar AlAsqalani said, "Ibn Kathir worked on the subject of the Hadith in the areas of texts and chains of narrators. He had a good memory, his books became popular during his lifetime, and people benefited from them after his death."

Also, the renowned historian Abu Al-Mahasin, Jamal Ad-Din Yusuf bin Sayf Ad-Din (Ibn Taghri Bardi), said in his book, AlManhal As-Safi, "He is the Shaykh, the Imam, the great scholar `Imad Ad-Din Abu Al-Fida'. He learned extensively and was very active in collecting knowledge and writing. He was excellent in the areas of Fiqh, Tafsfr and Hadith. He collected knowledge, authored (books), taught, narrated Hadith and wrote. He had immense knowledge in the fields of Hadith, Tafsir, Fiqh, the Arabic language, and so forth. He gave Fatawa (religious verdicts) and taught until he died, may Allah grant him mercy. He was known for his precision and vast knowledge, and as a scholar of history, Hadith and Tafsir."

Ibn Kathir's Students
Ibn Hajji was one of Ibn Kathir's students, and he described Ibn Kathir: "He had the best memory of the Hadith texts. He also had the most knowledge concerning the narrators and authenticity, his contemporaries and teachers admitted to these qualities. Every time I met him I gained some benefit from him."

Also, Ibn Al-`Imad Al-Hanbali said in his book, Shadhardt Adh-Dhahab, "He is the renowned Hafiz `Imad Ad-Din, whose memory was excellent, whose forgetfulness was miniscule, whose understanding was adequate, and who had good knowledge in the Arabic language." Also, Ibn Habib said about Ibn Kathir, "He heard knowledge and collected it and wrote various books. He brought comfort to the ears with his Fatwas and narrated Hadith and brought benefit to other people. The papers that contained his Fatwas were transmitted to the various (Islamic) provinces. Further, he was known for his precision and encompassing knowledge."

Ibn Kathir's Books
1 - One of the greatest books that Ibn Kathir wrote was his Tafsir of the Noble Qur'an, which is one of the best Tafsir that rely on narrations [of Ahadith, the Tafsir of the Companions, etc.]. The Tafsir by Ibn Kathir was printed many times and several scholars have summarized it.

2- The History Collection known as Al-Biddyah, which was printed in 14 volumes under the name Al-Bidayah wanNihdyah, and contained the stories of the Prophets and previous nations, the Prophet's Seerah (life story) and Islamic history until his time. He also added a book Al-Fitan, about the Signs of the Last Hour.

3- At-Takmil ft Ma`rifat Ath-Thiqat wa Ad-Du'afa wal Majdhil which Ibn Kathir collected from the books of his two Shaykhs Al-Mizzi and Adh-Dhahabi; Al-Kdmal and Mizan Al-Ftiddl. He added several benefits regarding the subject of Al-Jarh and AtT'adil.

4- Al-Hadi was-Sunan ft Ahadith Al-Masdnfd was-Sunan which is also known by, Jami` Al-Masdnfd. In this book, Ibn Kathir collected the narrations of Imams Ahmad bin Hanbal, Al-Bazzar, Abu Ya`la Al-Mawsili, Ibn Abi Shaybah and from the six collections of Hadith: the Two Sahihs [Al-Bukhari and Muslim] and the Four Sunan [Abu Dawud, At-Tirmidhi, AnNasa and Ibn Majah]. Ibn Kathir divided this book according to areas of Fiqh.

5-Tabaqat Ash-Shaf iyah which also contains the virtues of Imam Ash-Shafi.

6- Ibn Kathir wrote references for the Ahadith of Adillat AtTanbfh, from the Shafi school of Fiqh.

7- Ibn Kathir began an explanation of Sahih Al-Bukhari, but he did not finish it.

8- He started writing a large volume on the Ahkam (Laws), but finished only up to the Hajj rituals.

9- He summarized Al-Bayhaqi's 'Al-Madkhal. Many of these books were not printed.

10- He summarized `Ulum Al-Hadith, by Abu `Amr bin AsSalah and called it Mukhtasar `Ulum Al-Hadith. Shaykh Ahmad Shakir, the Egyptian Muhaddith, printed this book along with his commentary on it and called it Al-Ba'th Al-Hathfth fi Sharh Mukhtasar `Ulum Al-Hadith.

11- As-Sfrah An-Nabawiyyah, which is contained in his book Al-Biddyah, and both of these books are in print.

12- A research on Jihad called Al-Ijtihad ft Talabi Al-Jihad, which was printed several times.

Ibn Kathir's Death
Al-Hafiz Ibn Hajar Al-Asgalani said, "Ibn Kathir lost his sight just before his life ended. He died in Damascus in 774 H." May Allah grant mercy upon Ibn Kathir and make him among the residents of His Paradise.

Biography of Imam Hafiz Ibn Kathir - Dar-us-Salam Publications

Those playing along at home can judge for themselves ,Thank you  for participating in the  thread, feel free to rejoin at any time.


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## Kalam (Jul 21, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> Thank you, I  have provided contrary interprations and clarifications for the  most universally respected scholars whom you reject out of hand.



Perhaps when I'm old and retired I'll put my interpretations on paper. Would you suddenly have more respect for them if they were between the covers of a book?


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## Fatality (Jul 22, 2009)

Kalam said:


> Fatality said:
> 
> 
> > there must be something in the koran or other accepted material that proves beyond all doubt that non-muhammdans are innocent people
> ...



glad you admit that the koran makes it clear it considers all non-muslims guilty and therefore when a mohammdan says "we do not believe in the killing of innocent people" they are never refering to non-muslims


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## PixieStix (Jul 22, 2009)

Fatality said:


> Kalam said:
> 
> 
> > Fatality said:
> ...


 
Speading mischief is what we all non believers do. That is the justification for the killing.

Islamic theologians have separated the world into two houses - the house of war (dar al-harb) and the house of Islam


Either way 

And when it is said to them: "Do not make mischief on the earth",  
means, "Do not commit acts of disobedience on the earth. *Their mischief is disobeying Allah, because whoever disobeys Allah on the earth, or commands that Allah be disobeyed, he has committed mischief on the earth*. Peace on both the earth and in the heavens is ensured (and earned) through obedience (to Allah)."


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## Mr.Fitnah (Jul 22, 2009)

Kalam said:


> Mr.Fitnah said:
> 
> 
> > Thank you, I  have provided contrary interprations and clarifications for the  most universally respected scholars whom you reject out of hand.
> ...


No your opinion might mean something if it had  intellectual force based on consistent scriptural  interpretation, known history, backed up by the"prophet" and his companions and scholars. as  of now it lacks that.
By all means, keep thinking about writing down your thought.


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## Kalam (Jul 22, 2009)

Fatality said:


> Kalam said:
> 
> 
> > Fatality said:
> ...





Reading comprehension must not be your strong point.


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## Mr.Fitnah (Jul 22, 2009)

Kalam said:


> Fatality said:
> 
> 
> > Kalam said:
> ...


I got the same message from your post,I dont think you said what you  may have intended to say.


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## Kalam (Jul 22, 2009)

PixieStix said:


> Speading mischief is what we all non believers do. That is the justification for the killing.


You must be a Wahhabi. 

The language of the Qur'an tends to be fairly clear in its earlier chapters. If your belief was truly based on Qur'anic scripture, you'd be able to find a passage unequivocally stating that all non-believers are guilty and deserving of death. 

What you and your pals don't seem to realize is that your weak-minded bigotry empowers radicals by legitimizing their flawed interpretations. You, to them, are useful idiots. 



PixieStix said:


> Islamic theologians have separated the world into two houses - the house of war (dar al-harb) and the house of Islam


Which are, of course, artificial divisions that are nowhere to be found in the Qur'an. _That_ is an example of bid'ah.


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## Kalam (Jul 22, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> No your opinion might mean something if it had  intellectual force based on consistent scriptural  interpretation, known history, backed up by the"prophet"


My opinions meet all of these criteria. Nothing else matters. 

Concerning "known history," do explain this and how it would be permissible under your particularly violent interpretation of Islam:

"Constitution" of Medina (Dustur al-Madinah)


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## Mr.Fitnah (Jul 22, 2009)

Kalam said:


> Mr.Fitnah said:
> 
> 
> > No your opinion might mean something if it had  intellectual force based on consistent scriptural  interpretation, known history, backed up by the"prophet"
> ...



http://www.usmessageboard.com/blogs/mr-fitnah/129-what-was-mos-job.html


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## Kalam (Jul 22, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> Kalam said:
> 
> 
> > Mr.Fitnah said:
> ...



If you have an actual response, post it here.


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## Mr.Fitnah (Jul 22, 2009)

Mohammad brought shame on the people who have given him charity by becoming a criminal a pirate of the desert all bets are off once you cross the line of civility.


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## Mr.Fitnah (Jul 22, 2009)

Kalam said:


> Mr.Fitnah said:
> 
> 
> > Kalam said:
> ...


The post reveals the facts , I had  addressed  that document before the post.


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## Kalam (Jul 22, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> Mohammad brought shame on the people who have given him charity by becoming a criminal a pirate of the desert all bets are off once you cross the line of civility.



By raiding the caravans of the very people who had forced his followers out of their homes and into abject poverty? Yeah, how horrible and aggressive.


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## Mr.Fitnah (Jul 22, 2009)

Kalam said:


> Mr.Fitnah said:
> 
> 
> > Mohammad brought shame on the people who have given him charity by becoming a criminal a pirate of the desert all bets are off once you cross the line of civility.
> ...


You can try  to justify the banditry  anyway you wish.He  left because he revealed he was a fraud who had harangued the people of mecca  for a decade, then  reversed himself with the "satanic verses."


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## Kalam (Jul 22, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> Kalam said:
> 
> 
> > Mr.Fitnah said:
> ...



You can express your faux outrage over it as much as you'd like. 

No rationally minded person would blame someone for doing what Muhammad did. After the Quraysh had taken the homes and possessions of Muslims simply for being Islamic, Muhammad and his followers responded properly by attacking their oppressors in order to make a living.


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## mal (Jul 22, 2009)

Have we Found any ME Muslim Leaders who Denounce the Targeting of Israeli Children yet?...



peace...


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## Mr.Fitnah (Jul 22, 2009)

Kalam said:


> Mr.Fitnah said:
> 
> 
> > Kalam said:
> ...


5:33. The recompense of those who wage war against Allâh and His Messenger and do mischief in the land is only that they shall be killed or crucified or their hands and their feet be cut off on the opposite sides, or be exiled from the land. That is their disgrace in this world, and a great torment is theirs in the Hereafter.

8:12. (Remember) when your Lord inspired the angels, "Verily, I am with you, so keep firm those who have believed. I will cast terror into the hearts of those who have disbelieved, so strike them over the necks, and smite over all their fingers and toes."

Tabari IX:69	"Killing disbelievers is a small matter to us."
Ishaq:489	"Do the bastards think that we are not their equal in fighting? We are men who think that there is no shame in killing."
Ishaq:369	By Allah, had Muhammad ordered me to murder you, my brother, I would have cut off your head.'

Tabari VII:81	"What do you think Khattab?' Muhammad asked. I say you should hand them over to me so that I can cut off their heads. Thus Allah will know that there is no leniency in our hearts toward the unbelievers.'

Bukhari:V1B1N6 "Just issue orders to kill every Jew in the country." Innocent blood still dripping from his hands, Mas'ud proclaimed for all the world to hear: "Muhammad ordered me to murder."

Tabari VII:101 "They asked the Prophet for permission to kill Sallam. He granted it." 

Tabari VII:99 "When they got to Khaybar they went to Sallam's house by night, having locked every door in the settlement on the inhabitants. He was in an upper chamber. His wife came out and asked who we were. We told her that we were Arabs in search of supplies. She told us that her husband was in bed. We entered and bolted his door. His wife shrieked and warned him of us, so we ran at him with our swords as he lay on his bed. When we had smitten him Abdallah bore down his sword into his belly until it went right through him. By the God of the Jews, he is dead!' Never have I heard sweeter words than those. We returned to Allah's Apostle and told him that we had killed his enemy. We disputed before him as to who had killed him, each of us laying claim to the deed. Muhammad demanded to see our swords and when he looked at them he said, It is the sword of Abdallah that killed him; I can see traces of food on it.'"

Yeah real rational  that Islam, thanks for  the justification on killing innocent people.


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## Kalam (Jul 22, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> He  left because he revealed he was a fraud who had harangued the people of mecca  for a decade, then  reversed himself with the "satanic verses."



Not even your scholars are on board with that nonsense. 

From M. M. Ali's commentary:

_Verses 19 21 are made the basis of the false story of what is called the Lapse of Muhammad or Compromise with idolatry by Christian writers. Certain reports narrated by Wåqidi and Tabari are the sole authority for this charge against that incessant preacher against idolatry, every incident of whose life condemns it as a bare falsehood. Muir asserts that Pious Muhammadans of after-days, scandalized at the lapse of their Prophet into so flagrant a concession, would reject the whole story, as if the earlier Muslims were not as pious as the latter. The fact is that the story was quite unknown to the earlier Muslims. There is not a single trustworthy hadith that lends support to this story. Muhammad ibn Ishåq, who died as early as 151 A.H., does not mention the incident, while Muirs earliest authority, Wåqidi, was born more than forty years later. It is stated in the Bahrain that when questioned about it, Ibn Ishåq called it a fabrication of the zindeeqs. And the famous Bukhåri, the most trustworthy authority on the sayings of the Holy Prophet, was Wåqidis contemporary, and his collection of sayings contains no mention of the story. As regards Wåqidi, all competent authorities entertain a very low opinion of his trustworthiness. The Mizån al-Itidål, a critical work on the lives and characters of the reporters of Hadith, speaks of Wåqidi as unreliable and even as a fabricator of reports. As regards Tabari, Muir himself represents him as guilty of indiscriminate reception. As against these two unreliable authorities, those who reject this story are highly learned men (Ruh al-Maåni). The six collections of reports known as the Sihåh Sittah (or the Six Reliable Works) do not mention it at all, and contain instead a report which essentially contradicts the story of the so-called compromise. Internal evidence, too, is wholly against the story. We are told that instead of v. 21 the Prophet read the words: Tilk al-gharåniq al-ulå wa inna shafåata-hunna la-turtajå, i.e., These are exalted females whose intercession is to be sought. But the insertion of these few words in a chapter which is wholly directed against idolatry is quite out of place: v. 23 condemns idols; v. 26 denies their intercession; v. 28 condemns the giving of names of female deities to angels, and so on. It is further asserted that 22:52 was revealed in connection with this change, but it should be noted that a period of at least eight years must have elapsed between the revelation of this verse and that of 22:52. Moreover, if the Prophet had made any such compromise, it could not have been a sudden event, and traces of it would have been met with in other chapters revealed about the same time. But a perusal of these shows clearly that the Quråns condemnation of idolatry was never marked by the slightest change._​


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## Kalam (Jul 22, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> 5:33. The recompense of those who wage war against Allâh and His Messenger and do mischief in the land is only that they shall be killed or crucified or their hands and their feet be cut off on the opposite sides, or be exiled from the land. That is their disgrace in this world, and a great torment is theirs in the Hereafter.


Such are the consequences of aggressive warfare waged against Islam. 



Mr.Fitnah said:


> 8:12. (Remember) when your Lord inspired the angels, "Verily, I am with you, so keep firm those who have believed. I will cast terror into the hearts of those who have disbelieved, so strike them over the necks, and smite over all their fingers and toes."


The 8th Sura applies to the Battle of Badr and the Quraysh rather than disbelievers in general.


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## Kalam (Jul 22, 2009)

tha malcontent said:


> Have we Found any ME Muslim Leaders who Denounce the Targeting of Israeli Children yet?...
> 
> 
> 
> peace...



I'm opposed to any targeting of civilians, regardless of religion or allegiance.


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## Mr.Fitnah (Jul 22, 2009)

Go ahead and throw Islamic scripture under the bus,you have to
Ishaq is not silent on the even sirat rasul allah pages 134~ 163 Tabari who  you reject as well has many details of the event as well.
The Historical Muhammad - Google Books


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## Mr.Fitnah (Jul 22, 2009)

Kalam said:


> tha malcontent said:
> 
> 
> > Have we Found any ME Muslim Leaders who Denounce the Targeting of Israeli Children yet?...
> ...


The Quran makes no distinction between civilians and not, only believers and non believers.


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## mal (Jul 22, 2009)

Kalam said:


> tha malcontent said:
> 
> 
> > Have we Found any ME Muslim Leaders who Denounce the Targeting of Israeli Children yet?...
> ...




You are an ME Muslim Leader?...

Wow, this Board has some Pull... 

How long until Jihad is Declared on my Infidel Ass?...



peace...


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## Mr.Fitnah (Jul 22, 2009)

Kalam said:


> Mr.Fitnah said:
> 
> 
> > Mohammad brought shame on the people who have given him charity by becoming a criminal a pirate of the desert all bets are off once you cross the line of civility.
> ...





Kalam said:


> tha malcontent said:
> 
> 
> > Have we Found any ME Muslim Leaders who Denounce the Targeting of Israeli Children yet?...
> ...


The traders driving the caravans were innocent traders.


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## Sunni Man (Jul 22, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> Kalam said:
> 
> 
> > Mr.Fitnah said:
> ...


 Imam Cut & Paste 

How do you know they were innocent traders?

Did they tell you??


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## Kalam (Jul 22, 2009)

tha malcontent said:


> You are an ME Muslim Leader?...




For all you know. 



tha malcontent said:


> How long until Jihad is Declared on my Infidel Ass?...
> 
> 
> 
> peace...


Look under your bed - there are some Muslim bogeymen hiding there as we speak.


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## Kalam (Jul 22, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> Go ahead and throw Islamic scripture under the bus,


The only scripture in Islam is the Qur'an. 



Mr.Fitnah said:


> you have to
> Ishaq is not silent on the even sirat rasul allah pages 134~ 163 Tabari who  you reject as well has many details of the event as well.


This does nothing to refute the argument advanced in M. M. Ali's commentary.


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## Kalam (Jul 22, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> The traders driving the caravans were innocent traders.



They were part of the Makkan power structure. After Makkah seized the property of the Muslims, I doubt any delusions were harbored about the Muslims not retaliating.


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## Kalam (Jul 22, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> Kalam said:
> 
> 
> > tha malcontent said:
> ...



The Qur'an distinguishes between aggressors and defenders. Muslims must fall into the latter category.


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## Fatality (Jul 22, 2009)

so far kallam has offered nothing to support his position, interesting


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## Sunni Man (Jul 22, 2009)

Fatality said:


> so far kallam has offered nothing to support his position, interesting


So nice of you to troll by and offer your idiotic opinion.


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## Fatality (Jul 22, 2009)

xotoxi said:


> The issue that _*I*_ am asking you and others to rectify is: WHY IS YOUR RELIGION THE ONLY CORRECT ONE?  And WHY IS THE PENALTY FOR NOT BELIEVING IT SO HARSH?


because Jesus is God


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## Fatality (Jul 22, 2009)

Sunni Man said:


> Fatality said:
> 
> 
> > so far kallam has offered nothing to support his position, interesting
> ...



its not my opinion, it is fact.


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## Sunni Man (Jul 22, 2009)

Fatality said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> > Fatality said:
> ...


Yes, I am sure, in your limited mind it is a fact.


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## Fatality (Jul 22, 2009)

xotoxi said:


> Why don't you take an attempt at discussing *YOUR* religion as opposed to someone elses?



start your own thread


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## Fatality (Jul 22, 2009)

Sunni Man said:


> Fatality said:
> 
> 
> > Sunni Man said:
> ...



its a simple matter of reading the thread.


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## Anguille (Jul 22, 2009)

Anguille said:


> PixieStix said:
> 
> 
> > Anguille said:
> ...



Neg rep from Fatality for this post.

Do people really own threads here? 

Islam forbids  07-22-2009 06:32 PM  Fatality  start your own thread


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## Anguille (Jul 22, 2009)

Fatality said:


> xotoxi said:
> 
> 
> > Why don't you take an attempt at discussing *YOUR* religion as opposed to someone elses?
> ...


Did you neg rep Toxi too?/

Pos rep coming Toxi's way, just in case.


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## Fatality (Jul 22, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> Muslims like to say "Islam forbids the killing of innocent people"
> Please provide scripture to proves unequivocally non muslims are innocent



^^


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## Sunni Man (Jul 22, 2009)

Fatality said:


> Mr.Fitnah said:
> 
> 
> > Muslims like to say "Islam forbids the killing of innocent people"
> ...


Fatality, are you soo lame that you can't even make an orginal post of your own? 

Imam Cut & Paste (mr. fitnah) has posted that many times already.

(and has been answered several times already)


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## The Illusion (Jul 22, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> Islam forbids the killing of innocent people"
> Please provide scripture to proves unequivocally non muslims are innocent
> Shirk is worse than Killing
> 
> ...



This reminds me of the Old Testament and The New Testament.. completely contradictory of each other.

Jamie


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## Kalam (Jul 22, 2009)

Fatality said:


> so far kallam has offered nothing to support his position, interesting



All of my claims have been demonstrated in my posts here. If you're too lazy or too stupid to read them, that's your problem.


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## Kalam (Jul 22, 2009)

The Illusion said:


> This reminds me of the Old Testament and The New Testament.. completely contradictory of each other.
> 
> Jamie


Fitnut's depiction of Islam is wildly inaccurate.


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## PixieStix (Jul 22, 2009)

Kalam said:


> Fatality said:
> 
> 
> > Kalam said:
> ...


 
I got the same thing from your post. Kind of hard to ignore when it comes straight from Islams holy scriptures, isn't it?


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## PixieStix (Jul 22, 2009)

Anguille said:


> Anguille said:
> 
> 
> > PixieStix said:
> ...


 
Can you post something useful, or are you starved for attention? Read the Qu'ran study the sunnah and get back to us OK?

Bless your little heart


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## PixieStix (Jul 22, 2009)

Do our resident followers of Mohammed actually follow his examples? Well do you? 

Isn't that essential to the faith/religion?


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## Kalam (Jul 22, 2009)

PixieStix said:


> Kalam said:
> 
> 
> > Fatality said:
> ...


There's one holy scripture, the Qur'an, which I'm undoubtedly more familiar with than you and your friends here. I bring that up not to brag or be a blowhard - it's simply a matter of fact. I've read a number of major hadith collections, commentaries, and so-called biographies as well; I simply happen to reject most of them because they are not congruous with the message of the Qur'an. Having an uninformed individual like yourself tell me that I'm unable to comprehend the book I study daily makes me wonder whether you actually think before hitting "submit."

You all have been reduced to cutting and pasting arguments from radical heretics and making ridiculous comments like yours above.


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## PixieStix (Jul 22, 2009)

Kalam said:


> PixieStix said:
> 
> 
> > Kalam said:
> ...


 
So you are one of those progressives?, that may have to contend with the fundamentalists? Do you follow Mohammeds examples?

Oh and by the way, what about the verse of the sword, that abrogates/nullified the peace verses?

If you call posting Holy Islamic scriptures reducing, then OK


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## Mr.Fitnah (Jul 22, 2009)

Kalam said:


> Mr.Fitnah said:
> 
> 
> > Go ahead and throw Islamic scripture under the bus,
> ...


Well in fact it does, never the lessit fails to  prove unequivocally  using Islamic scripture that non muslims are innocent.

The Quran is  the only scripture to the dozen or so members of your deviant sect and  other slightly larger deviant quran only sects.  So there is no reason or way to refute those who reject mainstream Islam. I will leave that to believers and their swords
If it were not for the sunnah

And since  the Quran is the only scripture in Islam


*33:21. Indeed in the Messenger of Allâh (Muhammad ) you have a good example to follow for him who hopes in (the Meeting with) Allâh and the Last Day and remembers Allâh much. 
*
Muslims would not know how to follow  the good example  with a few exceptions
8:67. It is not for a Prophet that he should have prisoners of war (and free them with ransom) until he had made a great slaughter (among his enemies) in the land. You desire the good of this world (i.e. the money of ransom for freeing the captives), but Allâh desires (for you) the Hereafter. And Allâh is All-Mighty, All-Wise.

http://www.usmessageboard.com/1360829-post223.html as "Kalam" here  makes excuses for the murder and mayhem Mohammad resorted to .
"Kalam" and Mohammad  justifying the murder of random innocent people because  they may be angry hungry   and poor.

Sounds like a gang to me.

Volume 4, Book 52, Number 163(a): 
Narrated Ibn 'Umar: 

That the Prophet said, "My livelihood is under the shade of my spear (from war booty), and he who disobeys my orders will be humiliated by paying the Jizya.


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## Mr.Fitnah (Jul 22, 2009)

Kalam said:


> PixieStix said:
> 
> 
> > Kalam said:
> ...


Well please post a legal opinion from the ulema  that states  

8:39

And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and polytheism: i.e. worshipping others besides Allâh) and the religion (worship) will all be for Allâh Alone [in the whole of the world[]]. But if they cease (worshipping others besides Allâh), then certainly, Allâh is All-Seer of what they do 
2:193.  
And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allâh) and (all and every kind of) worship is for Allâh (Alone).[] But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against Az-Zâlimûn (the polytheists, and wrong-doers, etc193

Index of /what-is-islam/quran/noble

Tafsir.com Tafsir Ibn Kathir

Tafsir.com Tafsir Ibn Kathir

Tafsir.com Tafsir Ibn Kathir

Have been abrogated.


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## Mr.Fitnah (Jul 22, 2009)

PixieStix said:


> Kalam said:
> 
> 
> > PixieStix said:
> ...


He ignores abrogation despite what the Quran states

16:101. And when We change a Verse [of the Qur'ân, i.e. cancel (abrogate) its order] in place of another, and Allâh knows the best of what He sends down, they (the disbelievers) say: "You (O Muhammad SAW) are but a Muftari! (forger, liar)." Nay, but most of them know not.

2:106. Whatever a Verse (revelation) do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, We bring a better one or similar to it. Know you not that Allâh is able to do all things?


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## Mr.Fitnah (Jul 22, 2009)

Kalam said:


> PixieStix said:
> 
> 
> > Kalam said:
> ...


Reading comprehension must not be your strong point.
The problem  is  you dont like Islam, so you have to throw a great deal of the founding documents under the bus makes you look pretty damn silly. Over a billion and a half mainstream muslims think you are a heritic.
They have the scripture and the moral high ground.
I dont know  why you have to attack muslims to defend Islam.


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## Kalam (Jul 22, 2009)

PixieStix said:


> So you are one of those progressives?, that may have to contend with the fundamentalists? Do you follow Mohammeds examples?


I'm a Muslim that has to contend with radicals, a task made more difficult by supporters of theirs such as Fitnah and you.



PixieStix said:


> Oh and by the way, what about the verse of the sword, that abrogates/nullified the peace verses?


I have made a post disproving abrogation that nobody has been able to address. Fitnah still hasn't realized that the very arguments he attempts to make against it have already been disproved.


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## PixieStix (Jul 22, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> PixieStix said:
> 
> 
> > Kalam said:
> ...


 

So basically those who say this is not so, are also saying mohammed is a liar. Or are they being silent because they know it is true


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## PixieStix (Jul 22, 2009)

Kalam said:


> PixieStix said:
> 
> 
> > So you are one of those progressives?, that may have to contend with the fundamentalists? Do you follow Mohammeds examples?
> ...


 
With all due respect Kalam. I did not see anywhere in this thread where you disproved abrogation. Please point out in scripture where you have proven your point. Mr. Fitnah showed scripture. 

Maybe I missed it, but I saw none from you, that proves no such thing


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## Mr.Fitnah (Jul 22, 2009)

PixieStix said:


> Kalam said:
> 
> 
> > PixieStix said:
> ...


Who are you going to believe "kalam" or your own lying eyes?


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## PixieStix (Jul 22, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> PixieStix said:
> 
> 
> > Kalam said:
> ...


 



I can't hide my lyin eyes


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## Mr.Fitnah (Jul 22, 2009)

Kalam said:


> Mr.Fitnah said:
> 
> 
> > The traders driving the caravans were innocent traders.
> ...


Really how could they tell they attacked them at night.
Volume 4, Book 52, Number 256:
Narrated As-Sab bin Jaththama:
The Prophet passed by me at a place called Al-Abwa or Waddan, and was asked whether it was permissible to attack the pagan warriors at night with the probability of exposing their women and children to danger. The Prophet
replied, "They (i.e. women and children) are from them (i.e. pagans)." I also heard the Prophet saying, "The institution of Hima is invalid except for Allah and His Apostle."


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## Mr.Fitnah (Jul 22, 2009)

Kalam said:


> Mr.Fitnah said:
> 
> 
> > No your opinion might mean something if it had  intellectual force based on consistent scriptural  interpretation, known history, backed up by the"prophet"
> ...



Your opinion matters to you, we have firmly established you are far outside mainstream Islamic thought.


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## Mr.Fitnah (Jul 22, 2009)

Neser Boha said:


> Mr.Fitnah said:
> 
> 
> > Neser Boha said:
> ...


 Because Islam calls for my death , and the destruction of the country that I love  and I object.


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## Kalam (Jul 22, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> Well in fact it does, never the lessit fails to  prove unequivocally  using Islamic scripture that non muslims are innocent.


That is because we were discussing the myth of "satanic verses." Memory problems?



Mr.Fitnah said:


> The Quran is  the only scripture to the dozen or so members of your deviant sect and  other slightly larger deviant quran only sects.


No true Muslim views any work as highly as the Qur'an. I do not wholly reject everything else; I see ahadith, biographies, and similar texts as the peripheral works that they are. The message of the Qur'an must be used to test the legitimacy of every one of these claims and report. They're worth nothing if they contradict the Qur'an, regardless of who wrote or compiled them. 



Mr.Fitnah said:


> So there is no reason or way to refute those who reject mainstream Islam.


That is because our ideology is logical and can be easily defended by anyone familiar with the Qur'an.



Mr.Fitnah said:


> I will leave that to believers and their swords


I have no shortage of pens. 



Mr.Fitnah said:


> If it were not for the sunnah
> 
> And since  the Quran is the only scripture in Islam
> 
> ...


_There exists some misunderstanding as to the meaning of yuthkhina used here. Thakhuna means he or it became thick, and athkhana means ghalaba, he overcame (LA). The same word is again used in the Holy Qurån exactly in the same sense: then, when you have overcome them, make them prisoners (47:4). On the authority of certain reports, the commentators are of opinion that this verse and the next refer to releasing the prisoners of war taken at Badr after taking ransom from them, which act, it is said, is here disapproved. But various considerations show that these verses refer to some other incidents. Firstly, the condition laid down here for taking prisoners is that the Prophet should fight against the enemy, and that had actually been done at Badr. Secondly, the taking of prisoners and their release on this very occasion is justified in clear words only two verses further on, O Prophet, say to those of the captives who are in your hands: If Allåh knows anything good in your hearts, He will give you better than that which has been taken from you (v. 70). This shows that these verses were revealed when the prisoners were still in the hands of the Muslims and that which has been taken is clearly the ransom, which must have taken many days to reach Madßnah. If the verse had conveyed a Divine commandment to slay the prisoners and not to release them, that step could still have been taken. But the very fact that no such step was taken shows clearly that the verse conveyed no such Divine commandment. The legality of the Holy Prophets procedure on this occasion is clearly borne out by an earlier revelation: So when you meet in battle those who disbelieve, smite the necks; then, when you have overcome them, make them prisoners, and afterwards set them free as a favour or for ransom (47:4). The Prophet never slew a single prisoner of war, even after the battle of Badr, though thousands of prisoners were taken in some of these battles. On the other hand, the prisoners were almost always set free as a favour, and ransom was taken only from the Badr prisoners. The question is, what is then hinted at in this verse and in the one that follows? To me it seems quite clear that the reference is to the desire (mark the word desire used in the verse)  not to an action already completed  of a party of the Muslims referred to in v. 7, and you loved that the one not armed should be yours. Some Muslims desired to attack and capture the unarmed caravan, but depredations like these, though committed by disbelievers upon the Muslims, were not fit for a prophet. He must fight a hard fight in his defence first and then, if he overcomes the enemy, he may take prisoners. Thus this injunction also declares slavery to be illegal, and allows only the retaining of those who are taken prisoners in war. The frail goods of this world appropriately refer to the caravan and its merchandise, while the addition of the concluding words in v. 69, eat then of the lawful and good things which you have acquired in war, shows that the ransom received on account of the prisoners is among the lawful and good things.
_​


Mr.Fitnah said:


> http://www.usmessageboard.com/1360829-post223.html as "Kalam" here  makes excuses for the murder and mayhem Mohammad resorted to .
> "Kalam" and Mohammad  justifying the murder of random innocent people because  they may be angry hungry   and poor.


I have justified nothing more than the forcible removal of oppressors by the oppressed.


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## Mr.Fitnah (Jul 22, 2009)

Kalam said:


> Mr.Fitnah said:
> 
> 
> > Kalam said:
> ...



Sounds  like something more than defensive to me.

8:39

And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and polytheism: i.e. worshipping others besides Allâh) and the religion (worship) will all be for Allâh Alone [in the whole of the world[]]. But if they cease (worshipping others besides Allâh), then certainly, Allâh is All-Seer of what they do 
2:193.  
And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allâh) and (all and every kind of) worship is for Allâh (Alone).[] But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against Az-Zâlimûn (the polytheists, and wrong-doers, etc193

Index of /what-is-islam/quran/noble

Tafsir.com Tafsir Ibn Kathir

Tafsir.com Tafsir Ibn Kathir

Tafsir.com Tafsir Ibn Kathir


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## Kalam (Jul 22, 2009)

PixieStix said:


> Kalam said:
> 
> 
> > PixieStix said:
> ...



It was not in this thread, though I've referred Fitnah to it a number of times and have yet to receive an adequate response from him. Maybe you'll have better luck. 



Kalam said:


> AllieBaba said:
> 
> 
> > Yes, Muslims always pull this crap out too.
> ...


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## Kalam (Jul 22, 2009)

Did you hold a magnet too close to your head or something? Why are you attempting to respond to the same posts twice with the same meaningless answers?


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## Mr.Fitnah (Jul 22, 2009)

Kalam said:


> No true Muslim views any work as highly as the Qur'an. I do not wholly reject everything else; I see ahadith, biographies, and similar texts as the peripheral works that they are. The message of the Qur'an must be used to test the legitimacy of every one of these claims and report. They're worth nothing if they contradict the Qur'an, regardless of who wrote or compiled them.


I have yet tp see any hadith that contradicts the Quran.
I guess my problem is I know  that the Quran was "revealed " over time and mohammad crafted the message to fit the situation as time went on.
IE friendly relations with jews and Christians

_5:69. Surely, those who believe (in the Oneness of Allâh, in His Messenger Muhammad SAW and all that was revealed to him from Allâh), those who are the Jews and the Sabians and the Christians, - whosoever believed in Allâh and the Last Day, and worked righteousness, on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve._

until he was rejected because it was  obvious he was making it up as he went along, The  jews and christians were the enemy.

9:29. Fight against those who (1) believe not in Allâh, (2) nor in the Last Day, (3) nor forbid that which has been forbidden by Allâh and His Messenger (4) and those who acknowledge not the religion of truth (i.e. Islâm) among the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians), until they pay the Jizyah[] with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.


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## Mr.Fitnah (Jul 22, 2009)

Kalam said:


> I have justified nothing more than the forcible removal of oppressors by the oppressed.


And who is more of an oppressor than

_6:21. And who does more wrong than he who invents a lie against Allâh or rejects His Ayât (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, revelations, etc.)? Verily, the Zâlimûn (polytheists and wrong doers, etc.) shall never be successful.

2:254. O you who believe! Spend of that with which We have provided for you, before a Day comes when there will be no bargaining, nor friendship, nor intercession. And it is the disbelievers who are the Zâlimûn (wrong-doers, etc.)._

And how do you deal with them?

193. And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allâh) and (all and every kind of) worship is for Allâh (Alone).[] But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against Az-Zâlimûn (the polytheists, and wrong-doers, etc.)
no transgression except against Az-Zâlimûn
no transgression except against Az-Zâlimûn
no transgression except against Az-Zâlimûn

Someone who does not believe?

*You transgress against them*



The Noble Quran


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## Kalam (Jul 22, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> I have yet tp see any hadith that contradicts the Quran.


That is because you're an ignoramus who has studied neither. 



Mr.Fitnah said:


> I guess my problem is I know  that the Quran was "revealed " over time and mohammad crafted the message to fit the situation as time went on.
> 
> IE friendly relations with jews and Christians
> 
> ...


The jizya was to be paid by those who preferred to remain autonomous rather than recognizing the same laws and limitations as Muslims ("nor forbid that which has been forbidden...") while still being protected by the Islamic state.

The alternative was unity with the Islamic community - see the Madinah Compact. No contradiction exists between the two passages you presented.


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## Kalam (Jul 22, 2009)

The actual meaning of _zulm_ and its derivatives has been explained to you. If you want to persist in your idiocy by acting as if your inaccurate translation changes this, do so knowing that your argument is, as usual, completely meaningless.


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## PixieStix (Jul 22, 2009)

Kalam, maybe you missed the post where I aslked you about it being essential to follow Mohammeds example if you are a Muslim?

Do you?, and isn't it essential to the faith/religion?


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## PixieStix (Jul 22, 2009)

Kalam said:


> I have justified nothing more than the forcible removal of oppressors by the oppressed.


 
Who is on first, what?


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## Mr.Fitnah (Jul 22, 2009)

Kalam said:


> Mr.Fitnah said:
> 
> 
> > I have yet tp see any hadith that contradicts the Quran.
> ...


Believers forbids that which  allah has forbidden , not let them pay a tax, it is incremental genocide depending on the degree of control them muslims have  and how badly they need slaves.

9:111. Verily, Allâh has purchased of the believers their lives and their properties; for the price that theirs shall be the Paradise. They fight in Allâh's Cause, so they kill (others) and are killed. It is a promise in truth which is binding on Him in the Taurât (Torah) and the Injeel (Gospel) and the Qur'ân. And who is truer to his covenant than Allâh? Then rejoice in the bargain which you have concluded. That is the supreme success[].

9:112. (The believers whose lives Allâh has purchased are) those who repent to Allâh (from polytheism and hypocrisy, etc.), who worship Him, who praise Him, who fast (or go out in Allâh's Cause), who bow down (in prayer), who prostrate themselves (in prayer), who enjoin (people) for Al-Ma'rûf (i.e. Islâmic Monotheism and all what Islâm has ordained) and forbid (people) from Al-Munkar (i.e. disbelief, polytheism of all kinds and all that Islâm has forbidden), and who observe the limits set by Allâh (do all that Allâh has ordained and abstain from all kinds of sins and evil deeds which Allâh has forbidden). And give glad tidings to the believers.

9:5. Then when the Sacred Months (the Ist, 7th, 11th, and 12th months of the Islâmic calendar) have passed, then kill the Mushrikûn (see V.2:105) wherever you find them, and capture them and besiege them, and prepare for them each and every ambush. But if they repent and perform As-Salât (Iqâmat-as-Salât), and give Zakât, then leave their way free. Verily, Allâh is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful

Believers lay in wait to terrorize non muslims .

_2:105. Neither those who disbelieve among the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians) nor Al-Mushrikûn (the disbelievers in the Oneness of Allâh, idolaters, polytheists, pagans, etc.) like that there should be sent down unto you any good from your Lord. But Allâh chooses for His Mercy whom He wills. And Allâh is the Owner of Great Bounty._


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## PixieStix (Jul 22, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> Kalam said:
> 
> 
> > I have justified nothing more than the forcible removal of oppressors by the oppressed.
> ...


 
Al fitnah is worse than killing. That is what i do, I oppress the spread of Islam, because I do not worship and serve allah, and do not follow the examples of mohammed

I am doing it as we speak


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## Kalam (Jul 22, 2009)

PixieStix said:


> Kalam, maybe you missed the post where I aslked you about it being essential to follow Mohammeds example if you are a Muslim?
> 
> Do you?, and isn't it essential to the faith/religion?


Following Muhammad's example is essential to Islam. Legitimate sources for information about the _sunnah_ include the Qur'an itself and ahadith that are consistent with its message.


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## Mr.Fitnah (Jul 22, 2009)

Kalam said:


> The actual meaning of _zulm_ and its derivatives has been explained to you. If you want to persist in your idiocy by acting as if your inaccurate translation changes this, do so knowing that your argument is, as usual, completely meaningless.


Im willing to take the word of "The Custodian of the Two Holy Mosques."


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## Kalam (Jul 22, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> Believers forbids that which  allah has forbidden , not let them pay a tax,


This statement is nonsensical and is at odds with the very concept of _jizyah_.


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## Kalam (Jul 22, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> Kalam said:
> 
> 
> > The actual meaning of _zulm_ and its derivatives has been explained to you. If you want to persist in your idiocy by acting as if your inaccurate translation changes this, do so knowing that your argument is, as usual, completely meaningless.
> ...



Yet another testament to your weak-mindedness. Having control over Makkah and Madinah does nothing to legitimize the Wahhabi heresy and the garbage its followers disseminate.


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## Kalam (Jul 22, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> Al fitnah is worse than killing. That is what i do, I oppress the spread of Islam, because I do not worship and serve allah, and do not follow the examples of mohammed
> 
> I am doing it as we speak



I'd tell you that you're wrong, but this thought seems to be giving you a massive hard-on. I won't interfere - as you were.


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## Mr.Fitnah (Jul 22, 2009)

Kalam said:


> The actual meaning of _zulm_ and its derivatives has been explained to you. If you want to persist in your idiocy by acting as if your inaccurate translation changes this, do so knowing that your argument is, as usual, completely meaningless.


http://www.usmessageboard.com/1357395-post175.html



> Zalimeen or zalimuun are, literally, "oppressors," "perpetrators of injustice," and "deniers of rights."



*The Custodian of the Two Holy Mosques.*
6:21. And who does more wrong than he who invents a lie against Allâh or rejects His Ayât (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, revelations, etc.)? Verily, the Zâlimûn (polytheists and wrong doers, etc.) shall never be successful.

2:254. O you who believe! Spend of that with which We have provided for you, before a Day comes when there will be no bargaining, nor friendship, nor intercession. And it is the disbelievers who are the Zâlimûn (wrong-doers, etc.).

*says you are misunderstanding Islam.*


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## PixieStix (Jul 22, 2009)

Kalam said:


> Mr.Fitnah said:
> 
> 
> > Al fitnah is worse than killing. That is what i do, I oppress the spread of Islam, because I do not worship and serve allah, and do not follow the examples of mohammed
> ...


 
I am a woman


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## Mr.Fitnah (Jul 22, 2009)

Kalam said:


> Mr.Fitnah said:
> 
> 
> > Kalam said:
> ...


There you go against attacking muslims and Islam.


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## Kalam (Jul 22, 2009)

PixieStix said:


> Kalam said:
> 
> 
> > Mr.Fitnah said:
> ...


Of course you are.


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## Mr.Fitnah (Jul 22, 2009)

Kalam said:


> PixieStix said:
> 
> 
> > Kalam, maybe you missed the post where I aslked you about it being essential to follow Mohammeds example if you are a Muslim?
> ...



Abdullah bin 'Umar, may Allah be pleased with them, reported: 
Allah's Messenger said: I have been commanded to fight against people till they testify that there is no god but Allah, and that Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah, perform the Prayer, and pay Zakah. If they do that, their blood and property are guaranteed protection on my behalf except when justified by law, and their affairs rest with Allah. 
http://hadith.al-islam.com/bayan/display.asp?Lang=eng&ID=12

Abu Hurairah, may Allah be pleased with him, reported: 
The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said: I have been commanded to fight against people until they testify that there is no god but Allah, and he who professes it is guaranteed the protection of his property and life on my behalf except for a right warrant, and his affairs rest with Allah. 
http://hadith.al-islam.com/bayan/display.asp?Lang=eng&ID=11

33:21. Indeed in the Messenger of Allâh (Muhammad ) you have a good example to follow for him who hopes in (the Meeting with) Allâh and the Last Day and remembers Allâh much.


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## Kalam (Jul 22, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> Kalam said:
> 
> 
> > Mr.Fitnah said:
> ...



I take it you're unable to come up with anything substantive. Are we done here or what?


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## PixieStix (Jul 22, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> Kalam said:
> 
> 
> > Mr.Fitnah said:
> ...


 
He is just following Mohammeds example


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## Mr.Fitnah (Jul 22, 2009)

Kalam said:


> Mr.Fitnah said:
> 
> 
> > Believers forbids that which  allah has forbidden , not let them pay a tax,
> ...



The entire quote

_Believers forbids that which allah has forbidden , not let them pay a tax, it is incremental genocide depending on the degree of control the muslims have and how badly they need slaves_


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## PixieStix (Jul 22, 2009)

Kalam said:


> PixieStix said:
> 
> 
> > Kalam said:
> ...


 
That is either an example of Mohammed, or you hate women? 






Oh wait, that is one of Mohammeds examples


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## Kalam (Jul 22, 2009)

PixieStix said:


> Kalam said:
> 
> 
> > PixieStix said:
> ...


No, I was under the impression that most women weren't as prone to feeble-minded bigotry as you seem to be.


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## Mr.Fitnah (Jul 22, 2009)

Kalam said:


> Mr.Fitnah said:
> 
> 
> > Kalam said:
> ...


Link to original post
http://www.usmessageboard.com/1362868-post290.html

Your job is as a tool to help me reveal  the logical inconsistances muslims will go through to try to distance  the truth from the established facts.
You have gone to ridicules lengths and are a credit to Islam

The Custodian of the Two Holy Mosques.
6:21. And who does more wrong than he who invents a lie against Allâh or rejects His Ayât (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, revelations, etc.)? Verily, the Zâlimûn (polytheists and wrong doers, etc.) shall never be successful.

2:254. O you who believe! Spend of that with which We have provided for you, before a Day comes when there will be no bargaining, nor friendship, nor intercession. And it is the disbelievers who are the Zâlimûn (wrong-doers, etc.).

says you are misunderstanding Islam.


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## Mr.Fitnah (Jul 22, 2009)

Kalam said:


> PixieStix said:
> 
> 
> > Kalam said:
> ...


False claims and personal attacks are  an insufficient answer to Islams genocide policies.

Many muslims like to say "Islam forbids the killing of innocent people", I'm asking for someone to prove unequivocally using Islamic scripture that non muslims are innocent, Thanks for reading my post.


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## PixieStix (Jul 22, 2009)

Kalam said:


> PixieStix said:
> 
> 
> > Kalam said:
> ...


 
Why did you seem to not be surprised at first. and then you are surprised later? Hmmm? Makes one wonder what you are trying to say here

I am not a bigot. Far from it. I care about the people oppressed (in the English definition of the word) and killed in the name of a god who hates women


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## PixieStix (Jul 22, 2009)

I am sorry Mr. Fitnah, for going off topic. I better leave now before I get started on mohammeds hate for women

It is true bigotry defined

Good night Kalam and Mr. Fitnah


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## Mr.Fitnah (Jul 22, 2009)

More information on ZUlm
31:13:And (remember) when Luqmân said to his son when he was advising him: "O my son! Join not in worship others with Allâh. Verily! Joining others in worship with Allâh is a great Zûlm (wrong) indeed

5:45
And We ordained therein for them: "Life for life[], eye for eye, nose for nose, ear for ear, tooth for tooth, and wounds equal for equal." But if anyone remits the retaliation by way of charity, it shall be for him an expiation. And whosoever does not judge by that which Allâh has revealed, such are the Zâlimûn (polytheists and wrong doers - of a lesser degree). 

60:9
9. It is only as regards those who fought against you on account of religion, and have driven you out of your homes, and helped to drive you out, that Allâh forbids you to befriend them. And whosoever will befriend them, then such are the Zâlimûn (wrong-doers those who disobey Allâh).

The Noble Quran


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## Mr.Fitnah (Jul 22, 2009)

PixieStix said:


> I am sorry Mr. Fitnah, for going off topic. I better leave now before I get started on mohammeds hate for women
> 
> It is true bigotry defined
> 
> Good night Kalam and Mr. Fitnah


GN


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## Kalam (Jul 22, 2009)

PixieStix said:


> Why did you seem to not be surprised at first. and then you are surprised later? Hmmm? Makes one wonder what you are trying to say here


I'm sort of wondering what _you're_ trying to say here. You seem to have trouble putting coherent sentences together. 



PixieStix said:


> I am not a bigot. Far from it.


Yes you are - you and fitnut are impervious to reason and will always cling to your false interpretations and hateful misconceptions. Otherwise, you'd be forced to admit that your hatred of Islam is rooted in your own insecure need to single out one group or another as the source of all the word's ills. Idiots tend to view the world in such ways. 



PixieStix said:


> I care about the people oppressed (in the English definition of the word) and killed in the name of a god who hates women


Read the Bible, for fuck's sake. It ranks among the most abhorrently sexist pieces of literature I've ever read.


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## Kalam (Jul 22, 2009)

PixieStix said:


> I am sorry Mr. Fitnah, for going off topic. I better leave now before I get started on mohammeds hate for women
> 
> It is true bigotry defined
> 
> Good night Kalam and Mr. Fitnah



Please keep your phony outrage over Islam's "sexism" to yourself until you address the hate-filled commandments of your own religion.


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## Mr.Fitnah (Jul 22, 2009)

Kalam said:


> Yes you are - you and fitnut are impervious to reason and will always cling to your false interpretations and hateful misconceptions. Otherwise, you'd be forced to admit that your hatred of Islam is rooted in your own insecure need to single out one group or another as the source of all the word's ills. Idiots tend to view the world in such ways.



The four schools of Sunni Islamic jurisprudence are false interpretation and hateful misconceptions.OK.


----------



## Kalam (Jul 22, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> Kalam said:
> 
> 
> > PixieStix said:
> ...



As I said, you are impervious to logic. You have bored me. I'm out of here until you come up with something more thought-provoking than "Your argument is wrong because the Custodian of the Two Holy Mosques disagrees with you."


----------



## Mr.Fitnah (Jul 23, 2009)

Kalam said:


> Mr.Fitnah said:
> 
> 
> > Kalam said:
> ...


 I'm not impervious to logic, I just have the scripture and reason on my side.
Im glad you  hold your opinion in such high regard ,It has made you quiet the smugger.
Don't blame me that the vast majority of muslims dimply disagree with your opinion .
Its not my fault.
You should continue to study scripture and perhaps you will gain some wider understanding in the near future, thanks for reading my post.


----------



## Mr.Fitnah (Jul 23, 2009)

Many muslims like to say "Islam forbids the killing of innocent people", I'm asking for someone to prove unequivocally using Islamic scripture that non muslims are innocent, Thanks for reading my post.


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## Kalam (Jul 23, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> I'm not impervious to logic,


Denial is stage one of admitting you have a problem. 



Mr.Fitnah said:


> You should continue to study scripture and perhaps you will gain some wider understanding in the near future, thanks for reading my post.


Do not talk to me as if you're more familiar with my religion than I am.


----------



## Mr.Fitnah (Jul 23, 2009)

Kalam said:


> Mr.Fitnah said:
> 
> 
> > I'm not impervious to logic,
> ...


I  only know a little about mutazilites, I limit  my focus on scriptural Islam , specifically the parts that concern me
My infidelity and jihad.

Mu&#703;tazilah (Arabic &#1575;&#1604;&#1605;&#1593;&#1578;&#1586;&#1604;&#1577; al-mu`tazilah) is a theological school of thought within Sunni Islam. It is also anglicized as Mu&#703;tazilite. They are usually not accepted by other Sunni Muslims, though some of their theology parallels Shi'a Islam.

The name Mu'tazili is thought to originate from the Arabic root &#1575;&#1593;&#1578;&#1586;&#1604; (i&#703;tazala) meaning "to leave", "to withdraw".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mu'tazili

 I wouldn't trust one of these folks ,they could turn on you at the drop of a hat if it suited them


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## Mr.Fitnah (Jul 23, 2009)

Narrated Abu Huraira: Allah's Apostle said, "I have been sent with the shortest expressions bearing the widest meanings

1) AL-ZULM (OPPRESSION) 
The Meaning of Al-Zulm in Arabic: 
The word Al-Zulm (oppression) is opposite to the word Al-A'del (justice) and  is  derived  linguistically  from  the  word  Zalama  which  means  the following: 
Injustice, Darkness, Aggression, Doing the Inappropriate and Preventing  a right etc. 
The Definition of Al-Zulm or Oppression In Juristic Terminology:  Al-I'tidaa  Ala  Al-Huqouq  Bedoun  Wajih  Shar'ie   -  *Aggression  against Rights without a Divine Permit. *

59:23. He is Allâh than Whom there is Lâ ilâha illa Huwa (*none has the right to be worshipped but He*) the King, the Holy, the One Free from all defects, the Giver of security, the Watcher over His creatures, the All-Mighty,* the Compeller*, the Supreme. Glory be to Allâh! (High is He) above all that they associate as partners with Him.

snip

3 &#8211; Kinds of major kufr which put one beyond the pale of Islam 

The scholars divided kufr into a number of categories, under which they listed many forms and kinds of shirk. These are as follows: 

-1- The kufr of denial and rejection. This kufr may sometimes take the form of disbelief in the heart &#8211; which occurs rarely among the kuffaar, as Ibn al-Qayyim (may Allaah have mercy on him) said &#8211; and sometimes it takes the form of outward or apparent rejection, which means concealing the truth and not submitting to it outwardly, whilst recognizing it and knowing it inwardly, such as the Jews&#8217; rejection of Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him). Allaah says of them (interpretation of the meaning): _The arrogance of Islam is tangible _

Islam Question and Answer - Kufr and its various kinds

*The reason why jihaad is prescribed
Why do Muslims wage jihad?. *

Praise be to Allaah.  
Allaah has enjoined jihad for His sake upon the Muslims, for the great benefits that result from that and because of the harm caused by abandoning jihad, some of which are mentioned in Question no. 34830. 

Some of the reasons why jihad for the sake of Allaah is prescribed in Islam are as follows: 

1 &#8211; The main goal of jihad is to make the people worship Allaah alone and to bring them forth from servitude to people to servitude to the Lord of people. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning): 

&#8220;And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allaah) and (all and every kind of) worship is for Allaah (Alone). But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against Az-Zaalimoon (the polytheists, and wrong-doers)&#8221;

[al-Baqarah 2:193] 

&#8220;And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and polytheism, i.e. worshipping others besides Allaah), and the religion (worship) will all be for Allaah Alone [in the whole of the world]. But if they cease (worshipping others besides Allaah), then certainly, Allaah is All-Seer of what they do&#8221;

[al-Anfaal 8:39] 

Ibn Jareer said:  

So fight them until there is no more shirk, and none is worshipped except Allaah alone with no partner or associate, and trials and calamities, which are disbelief and polytheism, are lifted from the slaves of Allaah on earth, and religion is all for Allaah alone, and so that obedience and worship will be devoted to Him alone and none else. 

Ibn Katheer said: Allaah commands us to fight the kuffaar so that there will be no fitnah, i.e., shirk, and the religion will all be for Allaah alone, i.e., the religion of Allaah will prevail over all other religions. 

The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: &#8220;"I have been commanded (by Allaah) to fight the people until they testify that there is no god but Allaah and that Muhammad is the Messenger of Allaah, and they establish regular prayer and pay zakaah, then if they do that, then they save their lives and property from me except for Islamic laws and then their reckoning will be with Allaah." Narrated by al-Bukhaari (24), Muslim (33). 


Snip
 The fitnah of the kuffaar themselves and their preventing others from hearing and accepting the truth. That is because the kaafir systems corrupt the innate nature and reason of people, and make them get used to worshipping and submitting to things other than Allaah, getting addicted to alcohol, wallowing in the mire of sexual licence, and losing all characteristics of virtue. Whoever is like that can rarely tell truth from falsehood, good from evil, right from wrong. So jihad is prescribed in order to remove those obstacles that prevent people from hearing and accepting the truth and getting to know it. 

Islam Question and Answer - The reason why jihaad is prescribed

The misguidance of those who believe that kufr only means disbelief
Is the idea that kufr is only disbelief an idea that came from the Murji&#8217;ah sect? 

Praise be to Allaah. 

Kufr takes different forms. The Murji&#8217;ah and other followers of bid&#8217;ah (reprehensible innovation) say that kufr is only based on disbelief. But this view is contrary to the evidence and contrary to the truth. It is known that the Messengers were sent with miracles and proof to which hearts submitted. It is rare indeed that people believed that what the Prophets brought was false; most instances of kufr stemmed from arrogance, rejection and stubbornness. Allaah mentioned that Quraysh did not disbelieve the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), &#8220;but it is the Verses (the Qur&#8217;aan) of Allaah that the Zaalimoon (polytheists and wrongdoers) deny&#8221; [al-An&#8217;aam 6:33 &#8211; interpretation of the meaning]. This happens very often. Hence the scholars divided kufr into various types: the kufr of negligence and not caring; the kufr of arrogance and pride; the kufr of disbelief; the kufr of hypocrisy; the kufr of doubt. There is a great deal of evidence to that effect in the Book of Allaah and the Sunnah of His Messenger (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him). The story of Abu Taalib and the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) is clear; he believed in him and he used to say, &#8220;Our son does not tell lies,&#8221; but he was still a kaafir, because he never made a statement of faith or followed it up with actions.  

The Jews and Christians are both kaafirs and mushrikeen. They are kaafirs because they deny the truth and reject it. And they are mushrikeen because they worship someone other than Allaah. 

Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning): 

&#8220;And the Jews say: &#8216;Uzair (Ezra) is the son of Allaah, and the Christians say: Messiah is the son of Allaah. That is their saying with their mouths, resembling the saying of those who disbelieved aforetime. Allaah&#8217;s Curse be on them, how they are deluded away from the truth!

31. They (Jews and Christians) took their rabbis and their monks to be their lords besides Allaah (by obeying them in things which they made lawful or unlawful according to their own desires without being ordered by Allaah), and (they also took as their Lord) Messiah, son of Maryam (Mary), while they (Jews and Christians) were commanded [in the Tawraat (Torah) and the Injeel (Gospel)] to worship none but One Ilaah (God &#8212; Allaah) Laa ilaaha illa Huwa (none has the right to be worshipped but He). Praise and glory be to Him (far above is He) from having the partners they associate (with Him)&#8221;


Shaykh &#8216;Abd-Allaah al-Ghunaymaan

Islam Question and Answer - The misguidance of those who believe that kufr only means disbelief

A mushrik (plural mushrikin or mushrikeen) is a polytheist they are Az-Zâlimûn .These are the names of those who create the greatest crimes 

PWHCE Middle East Project: Definition: Shirk, Sharaka, Mushrik

*Nah it has nothing to do with what you believe.*


----------



## Fatality (Jul 23, 2009)

Kalam said:


> Fatality said:
> 
> 
> > so far kallam has offered nothing to support his position, interesting
> ...



your opinion is meaningless


----------



## Fatality (Jul 23, 2009)

Kalam said:


> I'm out of here



you may as well run off, youve been doing it the whole thread


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## Mr.Fitnah (Jul 23, 2009)

Many muslims like to say "Islam forbids the killing of innocent people", I'm asking for someone to prove unequivocally using Islamic scripture that non muslims are innocent, Thanks for reading my post.


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## Sunni Man (Jul 23, 2009)

I don't blame you for leaving this thread Kalam.

You and I both have answered Mr. Fitnuts (aka Imam Cut & Paste) several times over.

Now his retarded minion Fatality, is reasking the same previously answered questions. 

It has just gotten way too boring for me.


----------



## nia588 (Jul 23, 2009)

You know people have to ask themselves a question. there are more than a billion Muslims in the world. If Muslims were so violent don't you think there would be much more killings? I'm mean really.

I'm going to explain Jihad in a more simple matter. Jihad was ordered on the Muslims during the prophet Muhammad's (pbuh) time because the Meccans were trying to kill the them because they chose to give up idol worship and worship Allah alone.  so jihad was ordered so that they could defend themselves. So they were ordered to fight to defend themselves. 

Jihad is only suppose to happen if Muslims are not allowed to practice their faith and are oppressed if they do. Since there is no country in the world that currently forbids Muslims from worship there is NO NEED FOR JIHAD WITH A SWORD NOWADAYS.

there are different types of Jihad. Jihad doesn't just mean fighting a non-Muslim. one of the most important Jihads that every Muslim has to do is fighting the evil within one's self. So for example if you are a drug addict. your Jihad becomes fighting that urge to use drugs.

*Any Muslim that claims a Jihad nowadays is ignorant of Islam and following a deviated version of Islam.*


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## asaratis (Jul 23, 2009)

It is painfully obvious to me that "scripture" cannot be proved to be anything other than the thoughts of man egotistically presented as the word of God.


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## asaratis (Jul 23, 2009)

nia588 said:


> You know people have to ask themselves a question. there are more than a billion Muslims in the world. If Muslims were so violent don't you think there would be much more killings? I'm mean really.
> 
> I'm going to explain Jihad in a more simple matter. Jihad was ordered on the Muslims during the prophet Muhammad's (pbuh) time because the Meccans were trying to kill the them because they chose to give up idol worship and worship Allah alone.  so jihad was ordered so that they could defend themselves. So they were ordered to fight to defend themselves.
> 
> ...



You have answered your own question.  It's the RADICAL muslims that insist upon killing "infidels".   They are a small part of Islam.  They give all of Islam a bad name.  It is their adherence to the teachings of a demented "holy man" that keep them quoting and referring to that wretched, man-made rag they call the Quran.


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## nia588 (Jul 23, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> Many muslims like to say "Islam forbids the killing of innocent people", I'm asking for someone to prove unequivocally using Islamic scripture that non muslims are innocent, Thanks for reading my post.



i suggest you have a listen to these lectures. it explains and gives evidence from the quran and sunnah that the likes of al-qaida are ignorant.

http://www.salafiaudio.com/audio/SA130_1Z.mp3

this one also explains well

http://www.salafiaudio.com/audio/SA128_1Z.mp3

and keep in mind these imams are considered to be conservative.


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## Father Time (Jul 23, 2009)

nia588 said:


> You know people have to ask themselves a question. there are more than a billion Muslims in the world. If Muslims were so violent don't you think there would be much more killings? I'm mean really.



So the amount of killings there are all ready isn't enough to make it violent? Well deary me how much do you expect them to be? Even if you take that out Sharia law calls for the death penalty and mutilation a lot so I think that is enough to make it violent.


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## nia588 (Jul 23, 2009)

Father Time said:


> nia588 said:
> 
> 
> > You know people have to ask themselves a question. there are more than a billion Muslims in the world. If Muslims were so violent don't you think there would be much more killings? I'm mean really.
> ...



last time i checked the death penalty was still legal in most states in this country. and as for the beheadings and amputations. the only Muslim countries i know who do it is iran and saudi and maybe yemen. but majority of of Muslim countries don't do beheadings.


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## Fatality (Jul 23, 2009)

Sunni Man said:


> I don't blame you for leaving this thread Kalam.
> 
> You and I both have answered Mr. Fitnuts (aka Imam Cut & Paste) several times over.
> .



your opinion is not a valid responce


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## Sunni Man (Jul 23, 2009)

Fatality said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> > I don't blame you for leaving this thread Kalam.
> ...


Hard to take you seriously, when you can't even spell 

It's response not responce


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## Fatality (Jul 23, 2009)

Sunni Man said:


> Fatality said:
> 
> 
> > Sunni Man said:
> ...



adding opinion onto opinion does not an argument make.


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## Mr.Fitnah (Jul 23, 2009)

Sunni Man said:


> I don't blame you for leaving this thread Kalam.
> 
> You and I both have answered Mr. Fitnuts (aka Imam Cut & Paste) several times over.
> 
> ...


I cut and paste fundamental Islamic scripture. My opinion on the matter is irrelevant .
As a Sunni  there is no daylight  between what I post  and what your user name suggest you believe ,I just put it in focus.
*If you had any scripture to abrogate what I post you would have done so*
I reveal what you seek to hide kaffaar.
You aren't bored, you are incensed and outraged.
The cat is out of the bag.


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## Mr.Fitnah (Jul 23, 2009)

nia588 said:


> Mr.Fitnah said:
> 
> 
> > Many muslims like to say "Islam forbids the killing of innocent people", I'm asking for someone to prove unequivocally using Islamic scripture that non muslims are innocent, Thanks for reading my post.
> ...


Thanks for responding to my thread, Im sorry I cannot listen to a lecture by anyone .
If you have proof  bring it.


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## Mr.Fitnah (Jul 23, 2009)

nia588 said:


> Father Time said:
> 
> 
> > nia588 said:
> ...


Few crimes against mushrikun or zalimun carry any penalty of any consequence,most convicted criminals in Somalia and Yeman are out, the Bali bomber are an exception  , they are considered heros in some circles.


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## Mr.Fitnah (Jul 23, 2009)

nia588 said:


> You know people have to ask themselves a question. there are more than a billion Muslims in the world. If Muslims were so violent don't you think there would be much more killings? I'm mean really.



That they have eradicated the enemy at home does not mean they do not wish to continue  killing elsewhere.There are few places on earth muslims are not killing to institute sharia law.



> I'm going to explain Jihad in a more simple matter. Jihad was ordered on the Muslims during the prophet Muhammad's (pbuh) time because the Meccans were trying to kill the them because they chose to give up idol worship and worship Allah alone.  so jihad was ordered so that they could defend themselves. So they were ordered to fight to defend themselves.


Noble Quran 2:190 Footnote: Jihad is holy fighting in Allahs Cause with full force of numbers and weaponry. It is given the utmost importance in Islam and is one of its pillars. By Jihad Islam is established, Allahs Word is made superior (which means only Allah has the right to be worshiped), and Islam is propagated. By abandoning Jihad Islam is destroyed and Muslims fall into an inferior position; their honor is lost, their lands are stolen, their rule and authority vanish. Jihad is an obligatory duty in Islam on every Muslim. He who tries to escape from this duty, or does not fulfill this duty, dies as a hypocrite.


The passage itself can be found in two places. (It is on page 54( in my Quran) of the Noble Quran 
translation by Muhammad Khan and distributed by King Fahd Complex for the Printing of the Holy QuranThe Custodian of the Two Holy Mosques. It is a footnote to Quran 2.190 and is designed to explain Jihad according to Allah as this is the first time the word is used. 

Jihad is only suppose to happen if Muslims are not allowed to practice their faith and are oppressed if they do. Since there is no country in the world that currently forbids Muslims from worship there is NO NEED FOR JIHAD WITH A SWORD NOWADAYS.


> there are different types of Jihad. Jihad doesn't just mean fighting a non-Muslim. one of the most important Jihads that every Muslim has to do is fighting the evil within one's self. So for example if you are a drug addict. your Jihad becomes fighting that urge to use drugs.


The hadith is false

A Fabricated Hadeeth - Greater & Lesser Jihad - Ummah.com - Muslim Forum


> *Any Muslim that claims a Jihad nowadays is ignorant of Islam and following a deviated version of Islam.*



'Umdat as-Salik wa 'Uddat an-Nasik 

Page 602
09.6
it is offensive to conduct a military expedition against hostile non-Muslims without the caliphs permission, but if there is no caliph, no permission is required.

Islamic scripture proves disbelief is an act of aggression  a hostile act.


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## Mr.Fitnah (Jul 23, 2009)

nia588 said:


> *Any Muslim that claims a Jihad nowadays is ignorant of Islam and following a deviated version of Islam.*


Source


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## PixieStix (Jul 23, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> nia588 said:
> 
> 
> > You know people have to ask themselves a question. there are more than a billion Muslims in the world. If Muslims were so violent don't you think there would be much more killings? I'm mean really.
> ...


 

Oh yes the lesser and greater jihad. I often thought they may have had it backward 

Qur'an [4:95-96]


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## Mr.Fitnah (Jul 23, 2009)

PixieStix said:


> Oh yes the lesser and greater jihad. I often thought they may have had it backward
> 
> Qur'an [4:95-96]


It is  like street walker make-up, thick and greasy .


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## Fatality (Jul 24, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> nia588 said:
> 
> 
> > *Any Muslim that claims a Jihad nowadays is ignorant of Islam and following a deviated version of Islam.*
> ...



its gonna be fun to watch it spin


----------



## Sunni Man (Jul 24, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> > I don't blame you for leaving this thread Kalam.
> ...


Really???

I didn't know that


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## Ceasaro (Jul 24, 2009)

Question for muslims: I'm looking to get married. Which country lets me marry the youngest girls?


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## Liability (Jul 24, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> > Mr. Fitnah
> ...




They will not answer that clear direct question.  For good reason. 

 The fact that you have repeatedly asked it is evidence that they know they cannot offer any meaningful and honest answer to it.


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## Sunni Man (Jul 24, 2009)

Liability said:


> Mr.Fitnah said:
> 
> 
> > Sunni Man said:
> ...


That question has been answered several times over by both Kalam and myself.

It's not our fault if you Liability, Mr. Fitnuts, or his idiot friend Fatality, are unable to understand the answer.


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## Kalam (Jul 24, 2009)

Regardless of what meaning you choose to ascribe to _adh-dhulm_, the Qur'an gives Muslims the following commandment:

_And kill not the soul which Allah has forbidden except for a just cause. And whoever is slain unjustly, We have indeed given to his heir authority -- but let him not exceed the limit in slaying. Surely he will be helped._ - 17:33​
What is "unjust"?

_O you who believe, be upright for Allah, bearers of witness with justice; and let not hatred of a people incite you not to act equitably. Be just; that is nearer to observance of duty. And keep your duty to Allah. Surely Allah is Aware of what you do._ - 5:8​
Failure to act equitably. Therefore it can be concluded (again) that the slaying of innocents is forbidden.


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## Ceasaro (Jul 24, 2009)

So in other words, you can kill in the name of Allah, but it has to be a mullah sanctioned hit? Or is fatwa against the koran?


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## Kalam (Jul 24, 2009)

Ceasaro said:


> So in other words, you can kill in the name of Allah, but it has to be a mullah sanctioned hit? Or is fatwa against the koran?



Presently, no religious leader or body of leaders can speak for every Muslim. Jihad is permitted in response to hostilities initiated by one's enemies, but must be carried out in a manner that is consistent with the Qur'anic notion of justice.


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## PixieStix (Jul 24, 2009)

Ceasaro said:


> So in other words, you can kill in the name of Allah, but it has to be a mullah sanctioned hit? Or is fatwa against the koran?


 
Islamic scripture and Mohammeds examples and the Sunnah are what the Muslims strive to adhere to

At this point there is no "Khalifa" or Caliph for the whole of the Muslim nation/ummah

Many claimed OBL, may have been he.

The Caliphate has to be established before the Islamic community/nation, AKA the ummah is united against the whole of the Infidel Nation AKA non believers of Islam


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## Mr.Fitnah (Jul 24, 2009)

Kalam said:


> Regardless of what meaning you choose to ascribe to _adh-dhulm_, the Qur'an gives Muslims the following commandment:
> 
> _And kill not the soul which Allah has forbidden except for a just cause. And whoever is slain unjustly, We have indeed given to his heir authority -- but let him not exceed the limit in slaying. Surely he will be helped._ - 17:33​
> What is "unjust"?
> ...



'Umdat as-Salik wa 'Uddat an-Nasik 

Page 602
09.6
it is offensive to conduct a military expedition against hostile non-Muslims without the caliphs permission, but if there is no caliph, no permission is required.

Islamic scripture proves disbelief is an act of aggression . a hostile act.


----------



## Mr.Fitnah (Jul 24, 2009)

Commanding the Right & Forbidding the Wrong

Question:
What is the fiqh of commanding the good and forbidding the wrong in Islam?


Answer:

COMMANDING THE RIGHT AND FORBIDDING THE WRONG

From the Reliance of the Traveller (Book Q)

[The Reliance of the Traveller is a book every English-speaking Muslim should have, even if they are not Shafi`i, because it contains much that is necessary for every morally responsible person to know&#8230;]

q0.0 INTRODUCTION

q0.1 (n: The discussion and analysis that follow are Imam Ghazali's, edited by the Hanbali scholar Ibn Qudama Maqdisi from an earlier abridgement of Ghazali's Ihya' `ulum al-din by `Abd al-Rahman ibn Jawzi, which Maqdisi shortened to a single volume whose conciseness, if less vivid than the Ihya', better lends itself to the purpose of the present section, which is to discuss the practical implications of an important aspect of Scared Law.)

q0.2 (Ibn Qudama Maqdisi One should know that commanding the right and forbidding the wrong is the most important fundamental of the religion, and is the mission that Allah sent the prophets to fulfill. If it were folded up and put away, religion itself would vanish, dissolution appear, and whole lands come to ruin.

Commanding the Right & Forbidding the Wrong


----------



## Mr.Fitnah (Jul 24, 2009)

Sunni Man said:


> Liability said:
> 
> 
> > Mr.Fitnah said:
> ...


It has been answered ,just  not tot he required standard.
The standard is unequivocally.


----------



## Ceasaro (Jul 24, 2009)

Kalam said:


> Ceasaro said:
> 
> 
> > So in other words, you can kill in the name of Allah, but it has to be a mullah sanctioned hit? Or is fatwa against the koran?
> ...



So it's islamic justice to put a fatwa out on Rushdie over a book? Or to kill the dutch guy over a movie?
So kalam, are you on the side of jihad against infidels?


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## nia588 (Jul 24, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> nia588 said:
> 
> 
> > You know people have to ask themselves a question. there are more than a billion Muslims in the world. If Muslims were so violent don't you think there would be much more killings? I'm mean really.
> ...



lol you getting sources from ummah.com. although ummah.com has some beneficial discussions and article. however some of the articles posted on there are not accurate some of it is based on pure opinion. some of them are nothing more than armchair jihadis.

secondly the verses you posted have to be put in context. you just can't follow the verses so literally. 

like I said Jihad (fighting) is for when Muslims are being oppressed and they are not allowed to follow their religion (like being jailed or killed if they follow Islam). no one is denying Jihad is a part of Islam. But what I am saying is that no situation in today's world forbids Muslims and prosecutes for following in Islam. therefore there is no jihad nowadays.


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## SW2SILVER (Jul 24, 2009)

Allah is an asshole. I know it's true, a I know a leprechaun that heard it directly from the Easter bunny. Theological gossip, I suppose. But At least I am not flying a plane into the heart of Mecca during Ramadan to prove that I'm an intolerant asshole. A neilistic self hating mass murdering prick in the name of some  bullshit crap nobody can prove is real. I am not a Muslim, in other words.


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## Mr.Fitnah (Jul 24, 2009)

nia588 said:


> lol you getting sources from ummah.com. although ummah.com has some beneficial discussions and article. however some of the articles posted on there are not accurate some of it is based on pure opinion. some of them are nothing more than armchair jihadis.
> 
> secondly the verses you posted have to be put in context. you just can't follow the verses so literally.
> 
> like I said Jihad (fighting) is for when Muslims are being oppressed and they are not allowed to follow their religion (like being jailed or killed if they follow Islam). no one is denying Jihad is a part of Islam. But what I am saying is that no situation in today's world forbids Muslims and prosecutes for following in Islam. therefore there is no jihad nowadays.



I have to ask you if you are a member of the Submittetrs?

I quoted ummah as they had the sources that refute the greater jihad lesser jihad confabulation 

You should not be so critical of pure opinion, it is the totality of  what you post.

The Quran is not met to be read literally ?

Quran is mubeen i.e. which makes things clear and manifest

"A. L. R. These are the Ayats of Revelation,- of a Qur'an that makes things clear (qur-anin mubeenin). " [15:1]

"We have not instructed the (Prophet) in Poetry, nor is it meet for him: this is no less than a Message and a Qur'an making things clear: (qur-anun mubeenun)" [36:69]

Quran is noor-e-mubeen i.e. a light which makes things clear and manifest

" O mankind! verily there hath come to you a convincing proof from your Lord: For We have sent unto you a light (that is) manifest (nooran mubeenan)" [4:174]

Is the Quran plain, clear, manifest and perspicous?
To the best of  my knowledge  the only non literal movement is in reference to qiyas and the attributes of allah

http://www.masud.co.uk/ISLAM/nuh/littlk.htm


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## SW2SILVER (Jul 24, 2009)

Allah is an cosmic sphincter. And Islam is his feces. How about a bunch of suicidal suppositories, in the name of GOD, shoved up your arse? That's what America got on 9/11. I  mean to offend. Islam is worse than fascism. NAZISM had more respect for life than Islam has. That speaks for itself.


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## Mr.Fitnah (Jul 24, 2009)

nia588 said:


> like I said Jihad (fighting) is for when Muslims are being oppressed and they are not allowed to follow their religion (like being jailed or killed if they follow Islam). no one is denying Jihad is a part of Islam. But what I am saying is that no situation in today's world forbids Muslims and prosecutes for following in Islam. therefore there is no jihad nowadays.



More unattributed opinion from you.

Jihads purpose it bring the world under Islams laws.
Islam Question and Answer - Judging by that which Allaah has revealed
Islam Question and Answer - Should he turn to the human rights organizations to get his rights?
Islam Question and Answer - The kufr of one who rules according to other than what Allaah revealed

Allaah has commanded us to refer matters to His judgement and to establish Shareeah, and He has forbidden us to rule with anything else, as is clear from a number of aayaat in the Quraan, such as the aayaat in Soorat al-Maaidah (5) which discuss ruling according to what Allaah has revealed, and mention the following topics:

The command to rule according to what Allaah has revealed: And so judge between them by what Allaah has revealed . . . [aayah 49]

Warning against ruling by other than what Allaah has revealed: . . . and follow not their vain desires . . . [aayah 49]

Warning against compromising on any detail of Shareeah, no matter how small: . . . but beware of them lest they turn you far away from some of that which Allaah has sent down to you . . . [aayah 49]

Forbidding seeking the ruling of jaahiliyyah, as is expressed in the rhetorical question Do they then seek the judgement of (the Days of) Ignorance? [aayah 50]

The statement that nobody is better than Allaah to judge: . . . and who is better in judgement than Allaah for a people who have firm Faith? [aayah 50]

The statement that whoever does not judge according to what Allaah revealed is a kaafir, a zaalim (oppressor or wrongdoer) and a faasiq (sinner), as Allaah says: . . . And whoever does not judge by what Allaah has revealed, such are the kaafiroon. [aayah 44]; . . . And whoever does not judge by that which Allaah has revealed, such are the zaalimoon (polytheists and wrongdoers) [aayah 45]; . . . And whoever does not judge by what Allaah has revealed (then) such (people) are the faasiqoon (rebellious or disobedient). [aayah 47].

The statement that it is obligatory for the Muslims to judge according to what Allaah has revealed, even if those who seek their judgement are not Muslim, as Allaah says: . . . And if you judge, judge with justice between them. . . [aayah 42]


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## SW2SILVER (Jul 24, 2009)

Get over it, there is no "Allah" Islam is no better than Christianity, Judaism or paganism, for that matter. Except, not to many of them of them think it's acceptable to commit suicide or crash plane loads of non-dingalings  in the name of the great cosmic dingaling himself. Muslims?  They do. No need to explain, Islam is shit. Muslim are the flies. Allah is lord of the flies.


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## Mr.Fitnah (Jul 24, 2009)

SW2SILVER said:


> Get over it, there is no "Allah" Islam is no better than Christianity, Judaism or paganism, for that matter. Except, not to many of them of them think it's acceptable to commit suicide or crash plane loads of non-dingalings  in the name of the great cosmic dingaling himself. Muslims?  They do. No need to explain, Islam is shit. Muslim are the flies. Allah is lord of the flies.


Please feel free to start your own thread, if this on does not suit you.


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## SW2SILVER (Jul 24, 2009)

"Please feel  free". I like that, boyo. What does Allah say about free will? Kill it, Cut' it's freakin head off? I have no clue, AND I don't care what you think, jerkwad. You believe whatever you want. Islam caused 9/11 and I think it's payback time. I am a no theist, either.


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## Mr.Fitnah (Jul 24, 2009)

SW2SILVER said:


> "Please feel  free". I like that, boyo. What does Allah say about free will? Kill it, Cut' it's freakin head off? I have no clue, AND I don't care what you think, jerkwad. You believe whatever you want. Islam caused 9/11 and I think it's payback time. I am a no theist, either.



Before we  can play cowboys and muslims people in the west need to know  how and why Islam is a problem thats what this thread is about , lets not derail it with unnecessary side tracking, alright?.

Many muslims like to say "Islam forbids the killing of innocent people", I'm asking for someone to prove unequivocally using Islamic scripture that non muslims are innocent, Thanks for reading my post.


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## SW2SILVER (Jul 24, 2009)

This isn't a game. I am no cowboy. Lets set cliches aside. Religion is appalling.  Really truly. God  can't be proven either way, which is something none of you theist can prove .They used to hang witches. But, that pales to Muslims crashing airplanes into buildings. Comment?


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## Kalam (Jul 24, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> Kalam said:
> 
> 
> > Regardless of what meaning you choose to ascribe to _adh-dhulm_, the Qur'an gives Muslims the following commandment:
> ...


I post Qur'anic scripture and you attempt to counter it with quotes from a book on Shafi'i jurisprudence? Sorry, sparky, that's not gonna fly.


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## Kalam (Jul 24, 2009)

Ceasaro said:


> So it's islamic justice to put a fatwa out on Rushdie over a book? Or to kill the dutch guy over a movie?


No. Unless they're actively oppressing Muslims, acts of violence against them are unjustifiable. The proper response to that type of thing is explained here:

_And when thou seest those who talk nonsense about Our messages, withdraw from them until they enter into some other discourse. And if the devil cause thee to forget, then sit not after recollection with the unjust people._ - 6:68​


Ceasaro said:


> So kalam, are you on the side of jihad against infidels?


I'm on the side of jihad against any oppressor, including the so-called Islamic government of Sudan.


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## Kalam (Jul 24, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> The Quran is not met to be read literally ?



_He it is Who has revealed the Book to thee; some of its verses are decisive -- they are the basis of the Book -- and others are allegorical. Then those in whose hearts is perversity follow the part of it which is allegorical, seeking to mislead, and seeking to give it (their own) interpretation. And none knows its interpretation save Allah, and those firmly rooted in knowledge. They say: We believe in it, it is all from our Lord. And none mind except men of understanding._ - 3:7​


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## Kalam (Jul 24, 2009)

SW2SILVER said:


> Get over it, there is no "Allah" Islam is no better than Christianity, Judaism or paganism, for that matter. Except, not to many of them of them think it's acceptable to commit suicide or crash plane loads of non-dingalings  in the name of the great cosmic dingaling himself. Muslims?  They do. No need to explain, Islam is shit. Muslim are the flies. Allah is lord of the flies.



Fitnah isn't a Muslim, twit. Start your own thread.


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## Kalam (Jul 24, 2009)

PixieStix said:


> Ceasaro said:
> 
> 
> > So in other words, you can kill in the name of Allah, but it has to be a mullah sanctioned hit? Or is fatwa against the koran?
> ...



There is no mention of a "caliphate" in the Qur'an. No single leader is or has ever been fit to lead the entire Muslim community with the exception of Muhammad himself.


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## Ceasaro (Jul 25, 2009)

Kalam said:


> Ceasaro said:
> 
> 
> > So it's islamic justice to put a fatwa out on Rushdie over a book? Or to kill the dutch guy over a movie?
> ...



So you're a good muslim who would kill because you can tell who's oppressing whom? So why aren't you blowing yourself up in a government building in Sudan?

So the people who observe fatwas are wrong?


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## Mr.Fitnah (Jul 25, 2009)

Kalam said:


> Mr.Fitnah said:
> 
> 
> > Kalam said:
> ...


Included was a link,  your quran quotes have loop holes (just cause)
Your interpretation is interesting ,Im sure you have extensive writing from learned scholars to back up your opinion.
As it stands, it is not a main stream legal opinion .
its twisted logic does not met  the standard of any kind of proof let alone unequivocal 

PWHCE Middle East Project: Definition: Shirk, Sharaka, Mushrik
*Mushrikin *
A mushrik (plural mushrikin or mushrikeen) is a polytheist - one who shares the exclusive attributes of Allah with those other than Allah.
*A mushrik* (plural mushrikin or mushrikeen) is a polytheist they are *Az-Zâlimûn* .*These are the names of those who create the greatest crimes *

AL-ZULM (*OPPRESSION*) 
The Meaning of Al-Zulm in Arabic: 
The word *Al-Zulm (oppression) *is opposite to the word Al-A'del (justice) and is derived linguistically from the word Zalama which means the following: 
*Injustice*, Darkness, *Aggression*, Doing the Inappropriate and Preventing a right etc.

*Why would one treat such a criminal with equitably,*
You wouldnt

193. And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allâh) and (all and every kind of) worship is for Allâh (Alone).[] But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against *Az-Zâlimûn *(the polytheists, and wrong-doers, etc
 no transgression except against *Az-Zâlimûn*
 no transgression except against *Az-Zâlimûn*
 no transgression except against *Az-Zâlimûn*
 no transgression except against *Az-Zâlimûn*

The Noble Quran : Surat 2

Fighting the Jews and Christians is legislated because They are* Idolators and Disbelievers* 


Allah the Exalted encourages the believers to fight the polytheists, disbelieving Jews and Christians, who uttered this terrible statement and utter lies against Allah, the Exalted. As for the Jews, they claimed that `Uzayr was the son of God, Allah is free of what they attribute to Him. As for the misguidance of Christians over `Isa, it is obvious. This is why Allah declared both groups to be liars,

Tafsir.com Tafsir Ibn Kathir.


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## Mr.Fitnah (Jul 25, 2009)

That does not  mean  a muslims cannot have equatable dealing with a disbeliever,  they can , only  for the limited purpose of calling them to Islam and putting the Islamic forces in place for future violence.

17.16. And when We decide to destroy a town (population), We (first) send a definite order (to obey Allâh and be righteous) to those among them [or We (first) increase in number those of its population] who are given the good things of this life. Then, they transgress therein, and thus the word (of torment) is justified against it (them). Then We destroy it with complete destruction.


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## Mr.Fitnah (Jul 25, 2009)

The tafsir for 5:8

Justice is Always Necessary 





Allah said,


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(and let not the hatred of some people in (once) stopping you from Al-Masjid Al-Haram (at Makkah) lead you to transgression (and hostility on your part).) The meaning of this Ayah is apparent, as it commands: Let not the hatred for some people, who prevented you from reaching the Sacred House in the year of Hudaybiyyah, make you transgress Allah's Law and commit injustice against them in retaliation. Rather, rule as Allah has commanded you, being just with every one. We will explain a similar Ayah later on,


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(And let not the enmity and hatred of others make you avoid justice. Be just: that is nearer to piety,) which commands: do not be driven by your hatred for some people into abandoning justice, for justice is ordained for everyone, in all situations. Ibn Abi Hatim recorded that Zayd bin Aslam said, "The Messenger of Allah and his Companions were in the area of Al-Hudaybiyyah when the idolators prevented them from visiting the House, and that was especially hard on them. Later on, some idolators passed by them from the east intending to perform `Umrah. So the Companions of the Prophet said, `Let us prevent those (from `Umrah) just as their fellow idolators prevented us.' Thereafter, Allah sent down this Ayah.'' Ibn Abbas and others said that "Shana'an'' refers to enmity and hate. Allah said next,


&#64831;&#1608;&#1614;&#1578;&#1614;&#1593;&#1614;&#1575;&#1608;&#1614;&#1606;&#1615;&#1608;&#1575;&#1618; &#1593;&#1614;&#1604;&#1614;&#1609; &#1575;&#1604;&#1618;&#1576;&#1585;&#1617;&#1616; &#1608;&#1614;&#1575;&#1604;&#1578;&#1617;&#1614;&#1602;&#1618;&#1608;&#1614;&#1609; &#1608;&#1614;&#1604;&#1575;&#1614; &#1578;&#1614;&#1593;&#1614;&#1575;&#1608;&#1614;&#1606;&#1615;&#1608;&#1575;&#1618; &#1593;&#1614;&#1604;&#1614;&#1609; &#1575;&#1604;&#1573;&#1616;&#1579;&#1618;&#1605;&#1616; &#1608;&#1614;&#1575;&#1604;&#1618;&#1593;&#1615;&#1583;&#1618;&#1608;&#1614;&#1575;&#1606;&#1616;&#64830;


(Help you one another in Al-Birr and At-Taqwa; but do not help one another in sin and transgression.) Allah commands His believing servants to help one another perform righteous, good deeds, which is the meaning of `Al-Birr', and to avoid sins, which is the meaning of `At-Taqwa'. Allah forbids His servants from helping one another in sin, `Ithm' and committing the prohibitions. Ibn Jarir said that, "Ithm means abandoning what Allah has ordained, while transgression means overstepping the limits that Allah set in your religion, along with overstepping what Allah has ordered concerning yourselves and others.'' Imam Ahmad recorded that Anas bin Malik said that the Messenger of Allah said,


«&#1575;&#1606;&#1618;&#1589;&#1615;&#1585;&#1618; &#1571;&#1614;&#1582;&#1614;&#1575;&#1603;&#1614; &#1592;&#1614;&#1575;&#1604;&#1616;&#1605;&#1611;&#1575; &#1571;&#1614;&#1608;&#1618; &#1605;&#1614;&#1592;&#1618;&#1604;&#1615;&#1608;&#1605;&#1611;&#1575;»


(Support your brother whether he was unjust or the victim of injustice.) He was asked, "O Messenger of Allah! We know about helping him when he suffers injustice, so what about helping him when he commits injustice'' He said,


«&#1578;&#1614;&#1581;&#1618;&#1580;&#1615;&#1586;&#1615;&#1607;&#1615; &#1608;&#1614;&#1578;&#1614;&#1605;&#1618;&#1606;&#1614;&#1593;&#1615;&#1607;&#1615; &#1605;&#1616;&#1606;&#1614; &#1575;&#1604;&#1592;&#1617;&#1615;&#1604;&#1618;&#1605;&#1616; &#1601;&#1614;&#1584;&#1614;&#1575;&#1603;&#1614; &#1606;&#1614;&#1589;&#1618;&#1585;&#1615;&#1607;»


(Prevent and stop him from committing injustice, and this represents giving support to him.) Al-Bukhari recorded this Hadith through Hushaym. Ahmad recorded that one of the Companions of the Prophet narrated the Hadith,


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(The believer who mingles with people and is patient with their annoyance, earns more reward than the believer who does not mingle with people and does not observe patience with their annoyance.) Muslim recorded a Hadith that states,


«&#1605;&#1614;&#1606;&#1618; &#1583;&#1614;&#1593;&#1614;&#1575; &#1573;&#1616;&#1604;&#1614;&#1609; &#1607;&#1615;&#1583;&#1611;&#1609; &#1603;&#1614;&#1575;&#1606;&#1614; &#1604;&#1614;&#1607;&#1615; &#1605;&#1616;&#1606;&#1614; &#1575;&#1604;&#1618;&#1571;&#1614;&#1580;&#1618;&#1585;&#1616; &#1605;&#1616;&#1579;&#1618;&#1604;&#1615; &#1571;&#1615;&#1580;&#1615;&#1608;&#1585;&#1616; &#1605;&#1614;&#1606;&#1616; &#1575;&#1578;&#1617;&#1614;&#1576;&#1614;&#1593;&#1614;&#1607;&#1615; &#1573;&#1616;&#1604;&#1609; &#1610;&#1614;&#1608;&#1618;&#1605;&#1616; &#1575;&#1604;&#1618;&#1602;&#1616;&#1610;&#1614;&#1575;&#1605;&#1614;&#1577;&#1616; &#1604;&#1614;&#1575; &#1610;&#1614;&#1606;&#1618;&#1602;&#1615;&#1589;&#1615; &#1584;&#1604;&#1616;&#1603;&#1614; &#1605;&#1616;&#1606;&#1618; &#1571;&#1615;&#1580;&#1615;&#1608;&#1585;&#1616;&#1607;&#1616;&#1605;&#1618; &#1588;&#1614;&#1610;&#1618;&#1574;&#1611;&#1575;&#1548; &#1608;&#1614;&#1605;&#1614;&#1606;&#1618; &#1583;&#1614;&#1593;&#1614;&#1575; &#1573;&#1616;&#1604;&#1614;&#1609; &#1590;&#1614;&#1604;&#1614;&#1575;&#1604;&#1614;&#1577;&#1613; &#1603;&#1614;&#1575;&#1606;&#1614; &#1593;&#1614;&#1604;&#1614;&#1610;&#1618;&#1607;&#1616; &#1605;&#1616;&#1606;&#1614; &#1575;&#1604;&#1618;&#1573;&#1616;&#1579;&#1618;&#1605;&#1616; &#1605;&#1616;&#1579;&#1618;&#1604;&#1615; &#1570;&#1579;&#1614;&#1575;&#1605;&#1616; &#1605;&#1614;&#1606;&#1616; &#1575;&#1578;&#1617;&#1614;&#1576;&#1614;&#1593;&#1614;&#1607;&#1615; &#1573;&#1616;&#1604;&#1614;&#1609; &#1610;&#1614;&#1608;&#1618;&#1605;&#1616; &#1575;&#1604;&#1618;&#1602;&#1616;&#1610;&#1614;&#1575;&#1605;&#1614;&#1577;&#1616;&#1548; &#1604;&#1614;&#1575; &#1610;&#1614;&#1606;&#1618;&#1602;&#1615;&#1589;&#1615; &#1584;&#1604;&#1616;&#1603;&#1614; &#1605;&#1616;&#1606;&#1618; &#1570;&#1579;&#1614;&#1575;&#1605;&#1616;&#1607;&#1616;&#1605;&#1618; &#1588;&#1614;&#1610;&#1618;&#1574;&#1611;&#1575;»


(He who calls to a guidance, will earn a reward similar to the rewards of those who accept his call, until the Day of Resurrection, without decreasing their rewards. Whoever calls to a heresy, will carry a burden similar to the burdens of those who accept his call, until the Day of Resurrection, without decreasing their own burdens.)


&#64831;&#1581;&#1615;&#1585;&#1617;&#1616;&#1605;&#1614;&#1578;&#1618; &#1593;&#1614;&#1604;&#1614;&#1610;&#1618;&#1603;&#1615;&#1605;&#1615; &#1575;&#1604;&#1618;&#1605;&#1614;&#1610;&#1618;&#1578;&#1614;&#1577;&#1615; &#1608;&#1614;&#1575;&#1604;&#1618;&#1583;&#1617;&#1614;&#1605;&#1615; &#1608;&#1614;&#1604;&#1614;&#1581;&#1618;&#1605;&#1615; &#1575;&#1604;&#1618;&#1582;&#1616;&#1606;&#1618;&#1586;&#1616;&#1610;&#1585;&#1616; &#1608;&#1614;&#1605;&#1614;&#1570; &#1571;&#1615;&#1607;&#1616;&#1604;&#1617;&#1614; &#1604;&#1616;&#1594;&#1614;&#1610;&#1618;&#1585;&#1616; &#1575;&#1604;&#1604;&#1617;&#1614;&#1607;&#1616; &#1576;&#1616;&#1607;&#1616; &#1608;&#1614;&#1575;&#1604;&#1618;&#1605;&#1615;&#1606;&#1618;&#1582;&#1614;&#1606;&#1616;&#1602;&#1614;&#1577;&#1615; &#1608;&#1614;&#1575;&#1604;&#1618;&#1605;&#1614;&#1608;&#1618;&#1602;&#1615;&#1608;&#1584;&#1614;&#1577;&#1615; &#1608;&#1614;&#1575;&#1604;&#1618;&#1605;&#1615;&#1578;&#1614;&#1585;&#1614;&#1583;&#1617;&#1616;&#1610;&#1614;&#1577;&#1615; &#1608;&#1614;&#1575;&#1604;&#1606;&#1617;&#1614;&#1591;&#1616;&#1610;&#1581;&#1614;&#1577;&#1615; &#1608;&#1614;&#1605;&#1614;&#1570; &#1571;&#1614;&#1603;&#1614;&#1604;&#1614; &#1575;&#1604;&#1587;&#1617;&#1614;&#1576;&#1615;&#1593;&#1615; &#1573;&#1616;&#1604;&#1575;&#1617;&#1614; &#1605;&#1614;&#1575; &#1584;&#1614;&#1603;&#1617;&#1614;&#1610;&#1618;&#1578;&#1615;&#1605;&#1618; &#1608;&#1614;&#1605;&#1614;&#1575; &#1584;&#1615;&#1576;&#1616;&#1581;&#1614; &#1593;&#1614;&#1604;&#1614;&#1609; &#1575;&#1604;&#1606;&#1617;&#1615;&#1589;&#1615;&#1576;&#1616; &#1608;&#1614;&#1571;&#1614;&#1606;&#1618; &#1578;&#1614;&#1587;&#1618;&#1578;&#1614;&#1602;&#1618;&#1587;&#1616;&#1605;&#1615;&#1608;&#1575;&#1618; &#1576;&#1616;&#1575;&#1604;&#1575;&#1617;&#1612;&#1586;&#1618;&#1604;&#1575;&#1614;&#1605;&#1616; &#1584;&#1614;&#1604;&#1616;&#1603;&#1615;&#1605;&#1618; &#1601;&#1616;&#1587;&#1618;&#1602;&#1612; &#1575;&#1604;&#1618;&#1610;&#1614;&#1608;&#1618;&#1605;&#1614; &#1610;&#1614;&#1574;&#1616;&#1587;&#1614; &#1575;&#1604;&#1617;&#1614;&#1584;&#1616;&#1610;&#1606;&#1614; &#1603;&#1614;&#1601;&#1614;&#1585;&#1615;&#1608;&#1575;&#1618; &#1605;&#1616;&#1606; &#1583;&#1616;&#1610;&#1606;&#1616;&#1603;&#1615;&#1605;&#1618; &#1601;&#1614;&#1604;&#1575;&#1614; &#1578;&#1614;&#1582;&#1618;&#1588;&#1614;&#1608;&#1618;&#1607;&#1615;&#1605;&#1618; &#1608;&#1614;&#1575;&#1582;&#1618;&#1588;&#1614;&#1608;&#1618;&#1606;&#1616; &#1575;&#1604;&#1618;&#1610;&#1614;&#1608;&#1618;&#1605;&#1614; &#1571;&#1614;&#1603;&#1618;&#1605;&#1614;&#1604;&#1618;&#1578;&#1615; &#1604;&#1614;&#1603;&#1615;&#1605;&#1618; &#1583;&#1616;&#1610;&#1606;&#1614;&#1603;&#1615;&#1605;&#1618; &#1608;&#1614;&#1571;&#1614;&#1578;&#1618;&#1605;&#1614;&#1605;&#1618;&#1578;&#1615; &#1593;&#1614;&#1604;&#1614;&#1610;&#1618;&#1603;&#1615;&#1605;&#1618; &#1606;&#1616;&#1593;&#1618;&#1605;&#1614;&#1578;&#1616;&#1609; &#1608;&#1614;&#1585;&#1614;&#1590;&#1616;&#1610;&#1578;&#1615; &#1604;&#1614;&#1603;&#1615;&#1605;&#1615; &#1575;&#1604;&#1571;&#1616;&#1587;&#1618;&#1604;&#1575;&#1614;&#1605;&#1614; &#1583;&#1616;&#1610;&#1606;&#1575;&#1611; &#1601;&#1614;&#1605;&#1614;&#1606;&#1616; &#1575;&#1590;&#1618;&#1591;&#1615;&#1585;&#1617;&#1614; &#1601;&#1616;&#1609; &#1605;&#1614;&#1582;&#1618;&#1605;&#1614;&#1589;&#1614;&#1577;&#1613; &#1594;&#1614;&#1610;&#1618;&#1585;&#1614; &#1605;&#1615;&#1578;&#1614;&#1580;&#1614;&#1575;&#1606;&#1616;&#1601;&#1613; &#1604;&#1573;&#1616;&#1579;&#1618;&#1605;&#1613; &#1601;&#1614;&#1573;&#1616;&#1606;&#1617;&#1614; &#1575;&#1604;&#1604;&#1617;&#1614;&#1607;&#1614; &#1594;&#1614;&#1601;&#1615;&#1608;&#1585;&#1612; &#1585;&#1617;&#1614;&#1581;&#1616;&#1610;&#1605;&#1612; &#64830;


(3. Forbidden to you (for food) are: Al-Maytah (the dead animals), blood, the flesh of swine, and that which has been slaughtered as a sacrifice for other than Allah, and that which has been killed by strangling, or by a violent blow, or by a headlong fall, or by the goring of horns &#1600;and that which has been (partly) eaten by a wild animal &#1600;unless you are able to slaughter it (before its death) - and that which is sacrificed (slaughtered) on An-Nusub (stone altars). (Forbidden) also is to make decisions with Al-Azlam (arrows) (all) that is Fisq (disobedience and sin). This day, those who disbelieved have given up all hope of your religion; so fear them not, but fear Me. This day, I have perfected your religion for you, completed My favor upon you, and have chosen for you Islam as your religion. But as for him who is forced by severe hunger, with no inclination to sin (such can eat these above mentioned animals), then surely, Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.)


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## Mr.Fitnah (Jul 25, 2009)

No sin or wrong on transgressing against disbelievers

193. And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allâh) and (all and every kind of) worship is for Allâh (Alone).[] But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against Az-Zâlimûn (the polytheists, and wrong-doers, etc
no transgression except against Az-Zâlimûn
no transgression except against Az-Zâlimûn
no transgression except against Az-Zâlimûn
no transgression except against Az-Zâlimûn


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## Mr.Fitnah (Jul 25, 2009)

The Order to fight until there is no more Fitnah 





Allah then commanded fighting the disbelievers when He said:


&#64831;&#1581;&#1614;&#1578;&#1617;&#1614;&#1609; &#1604;&#1575;&#1614; &#1578;&#1614;&#1603;&#1615;&#1608;&#1606;&#1614; &#1601;&#1616;&#1578;&#1618;&#1606;&#1614;&#1577;&#1612;&#64830;


(...until there is no more Fitnah) meaning, Shirk. This is the opinion of Ibn `Abbas, Abu Al-`Aliyah, Mujahid, Al-Hasan, Qatadah, Ar-Rabi`, Muqatil bin Hayyan, As-Suddi and Zayd bin Aslam.


Allah's statement:


&#64831;&#1608;&#1614;&#1610;&#1614;&#1603;&#1615;&#1608;&#1606;&#1614; &#1575;&#1604;&#1583;&#1617;&#1616;&#1610;&#1606;&#1615; &#1604;&#1604;&#1617;&#1614;&#1607;&#1616;&#64830;


(...and the religion (all and every kind of worship) is for Allah (Alone).) means, `So that the religion of Allah becomes dominant above all other religions.' It is reported in the Two Sahihs that Abu Musa Al-Ash`ari said: "The Prophet was asked, `O Allah's Messenger! A man fights out of bravery, and another fights to show off, which of them fights in the cause of Allah' The Prophet said:


«&#1605;&#1614;&#1606;&#1618; &#1602;&#1614;&#1575;&#1578;&#1614;&#1604;&#1614; &#1604;&#1616;&#1578;&#1614;&#1603;&#1615;&#1608;&#1606;&#1614; &#1603;&#1614;&#1604;&#1616;&#1605;&#1614;&#1577;&#1615; &#1575;&#1604;&#1604;&#1607;&#1616; &#1607;&#1616;&#1610;&#1614; &#1575;&#1604;&#1618;&#1593;&#1615;&#1604;&#1618;&#1610;&#1575; &#1601;&#1614;&#1607;&#1615;&#1608;&#1614; &#1601;&#1616;&#1610; &#1587;&#1614;&#1576;&#1616;&#1610;&#1604;&#1616; &#1575;&#1604;&#1604;&#1607;»


(He who fights so that Allah's Word is superior, then he fights in Allah's cause.) In addition, it is reported in the Two Sahihs:


«&#1571;&#1615;&#1605;&#1616;&#1585;&#1618;&#1578;&#1615; &#1571;&#1614;&#1606;&#1618; &#1571;&#1615;&#1602;&#1614;&#1575;&#1578;&#1616;&#1604;&#1614; &#1575;&#1604;&#1606;&#1617;&#1614;&#1575;&#1587;&#1614; &#1581;&#1614;&#1578;&#1617;&#1614;&#1609; &#1610;&#1614;&#1602;&#1615;&#1608;&#1604;&#1615;&#1608;&#1575; &#1604;&#1614;&#1575; &#1573;&#1616;&#1604;&#1607;&#1614; &#1573;&#1604;&#1617;&#1614;&#1575; &#1575;&#1604;&#1604;&#1607;&#1615;&#1548; &#1601;&#1614;&#1573;&#1616;&#1584;&#1614;&#1575; &#1602;&#1614;&#1575;&#1604;&#1615;&#1608;&#1607;&#1614;&#1575; &#1593;&#1614;&#1589;&#1614;&#1605;&#1615;&#1608;&#1575; &#1605;&#1616;&#1606;&#1617;&#1616;&#1610; &#1583;&#1616;&#1605;&#1614;&#1575;&#1569;&#1614;&#1607;&#1615;&#1605; &#1608;&#1614;&#1571;&#1614;&#1605;&#1618;&#1608;&#1614;&#1575;&#1604;&#1614;&#1607;&#1615;&#1605;&#1618; &#1573;&#1604;&#1617;&#1614;&#1575; &#1576;&#1616;&#1581;&#1614;&#1602;&#1617;&#1616;&#1607;&#1614;&#1575; &#1608;&#1614;&#1581;&#1616;&#1587;&#1614;&#1575;&#1576;&#1615;&#1607;&#1615;&#1605;&#1618; &#1593;&#1614;&#1604;&#1614;&#1609; &#1575;&#1604;&#1604;&#1607;»


(I have been ordered (by Allah) to fight the people until they proclaim, `None has the right to be worshipped but Allah'. Whoever said it, then he will save his life and property from me, except for cases of the law, and their account will be with Allah.)


Allah's statement:


&#64831;&#1601;&#1614;&#1573;&#1616;&#1606;&#1616; &#1575;&#1606;&#1578;&#1614;&#1607;&#1614;&#1608;&#1575;&#1618; &#1601;&#1614;&#1604;&#1575;&#1614; &#1593;&#1615;&#1583;&#1618;&#1608;&#1614;&#1606;&#1614; &#1573;&#1616;&#1604;&#1575;&#1617;&#1614; &#1593;&#1614;&#1604;&#1614;&#1609; &#1575;&#1604;&#1592;&#1617;&#1614;&#1600;&#1604;&#1616;&#1605;&#1616;&#1610;&#1606;&#1614;&#64830;


(But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against the wrongdoers.) indicates that, `If they stop their Shirk and fighting the believers, then cease warfare against them. Whoever fights them afterwards will be committing an injustice. Verily aggression can only be started against the unjust.' This is the meaning of Mujahid's statement that only combatants should be fought. Or, the meaning of the Ayah indicates that, `If they abandon their injustice, which is Shirk in this case, then do not start aggression against them afterwards.' The aggression here means retaliating and fighting them, just as Allah said:


&#64831;&#1601;&#1614;&#1605;&#1614;&#1606;&#1616; &#1575;&#1593;&#1618;&#1578;&#1614;&#1583;&#1614;&#1609; &#1593;&#1614;&#1604;&#1614;&#1610;&#1618;&#1603;&#1615;&#1605;&#1618; &#1601;&#1614;&#1575;&#1593;&#1618;&#1578;&#1614;&#1583;&#1615;&#1608;&#1575;&#1618; &#1593;&#1614;&#1604;&#1614;&#1610;&#1618;&#1607;&#1616; &#1576;&#1616;&#1605;&#1616;&#1579;&#1618;&#1604;&#1616; &#1605;&#1614;&#1575; &#1575;&#1593;&#1618;&#1578;&#1614;&#1583;&#1614;&#1609; &#1593;&#1614;&#1604;&#1614;&#1610;&#1618;&#1603;&#1615;&#1605;&#1618;&#64830;


(Then whoever transgresses against you, you transgress likewise against him.) (2:194)


Similarly, Allah said:


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(The recompense for an evil is an evil like thereof.) (42:40), and:


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(And if you punish them, then punish them with the like of that with which you were afflicted. ) (16:126)


`Ikrimah and Qatadah stated, "The unjust person is he who refuses to proclaim, `There is no God worthy of worship except Allah'.''


Under Allah's statement:


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(And fight them until there is no more Fitnah) Al-Bukhari recorded that Nafi` said that two men came to Ibn `Umar during the conflict of Ibn Az-Zubayr and said to him, "The people have fallen into shortcomings and you are the son of `Umar and the Prophet's Companion. Hence, what prevents you from going out'' He said, "What prevents me is that Allah has for bidden shedding the blood of my (Muslim) brother.'' They said, "Did not Allah say:


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(And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allah))'' He said, "We did fight until there was no more Fitnah and the religion became for Allah Alone. You want to fight until there is Fitnah and the religion becomes for other than Allah!''


`Uthman bin Salih added that a man came to Ibn `Umar and asked him, "O Abu `Abdur-Rahman! What made you perform Hajj one year and `Umrah another year and abandon Jihad in the cause of Allah, although you know how much He has encouraged performing it'' He said, "O my nephew! Islam is built on five (pillars): believing in Allah and His Messenger, the five daily prayers, fasting Ramadan, paying the Zakah and performing Hajj (pilgrimage) to the House.'' They said, "O Abu `Abdur-Rahman! Did you not hear what Allah said in His Book:


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(And if two parties (or groups) among the believers fall to fighting, then make peace between them both. But if one of them outrages against the other, then fight you (all) against the one that which outrages till it complies with the command of Allah.) (49:9) and:


&#64831;&#1608;&#1614;&#1602;&#1614;&#1600;&#1578;&#1616;&#1604;&#1615;&#1608;&#1607;&#1615;&#1605;&#1618; &#1581;&#1614;&#1578;&#1617;&#1614;&#1609; &#1604;&#1575;&#1614; &#1578;&#1614;&#1603;&#1615;&#1608;&#1606;&#1614; &#1601;&#1616;&#1578;&#1618;&#1606;&#1614;&#1577;&#1612;&#64830;


(And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief))


He said, "That we did during the time of Allah's Messenger when Islam was still weak and (the Muslim) man used to face trials in his religion, such as killing or torture. When Islam became stronger (and apparent), there was no more Fitnah.'' He asked, "What do you say about `Ali and `Uthman'' He said, "As for `Uthman, Allah has forgiven him. However, you hated the fact that Allah had forgiven him! As for `Ali, he is the cousin of Allah's Messenger and his son-in-law.'' He then pointed with his hand, saying, "This is where his house is located (meaning, `so close to the Prophet's house just as `Ali was so close to the Prophet himself').''


&#64831;&#1575;&#1604;&#1588;&#1617;&#1614;&#1607;&#1618;&#1585;&#1615; &#1575;&#1604;&#1618;&#1581;&#1614;&#1585;&#1614;&#1575;&#1605;&#1615; &#1576;&#1616;&#1575;&#1604;&#1588;&#1617;&#1614;&#1607;&#1618;&#1585;&#1616; &#1575;&#1604;&#1618;&#1581;&#1614;&#1585;&#1614;&#1575;&#1605;&#1616; &#1608;&#1614;&#1575;&#1604;&#1618;&#1581;&#1615;&#1585;&#1615;&#1605;&#1614;&#1600;&#1578;&#1615; &#1602;&#1616;&#1589;&#1614;&#1575;&#1589;&#1612; &#1601;&#1614;&#1605;&#1614;&#1606;&#1616; &#1575;&#1593;&#1618;&#1578;&#1614;&#1583;&#1614;&#1609; &#1593;&#1614;&#1604;&#1614;&#1610;&#1618;&#1603;&#1615;&#1605;&#1618; &#1601;&#1614;&#1575;&#1593;&#1618;&#1578;&#1614;&#1583;&#1615;&#1608;&#1575;&#1618; &#1593;&#1614;&#1604;&#1614;&#1610;&#1618;&#1607;&#1616; &#1576;&#1616;&#1605;&#1616;&#1579;&#1618;&#1604;&#1616; &#1605;&#1614;&#1575; &#1575;&#1593;&#1618;&#1578;&#1614;&#1583;&#1614;&#1609; &#1593;&#1614;&#1604;&#1614;&#1610;&#1618;&#1603;&#1615;&#1605;&#1618; &#1608;&#1614;&#1575;&#1578;&#1617;&#1614;&#1602;&#1615;&#1608;&#1575;&#1618; &#1575;&#1604;&#1604;&#1617;&#1614;&#1607;&#1614; &#1608;&#1614;&#1575;&#1593;&#1618;&#1604;&#1614;&#1605;&#1615;&#1608;&#1575;&#1618; &#1571;&#1614;&#1606;&#1617;&#1614; &#1575;&#1604;&#1604;&#1617;&#1614;&#1607;&#1614; &#1605;&#1614;&#1593;&#1614; &#1575;&#1604;&#1618;&#1605;&#1615;&#1578;&#1617;&#1614;&#1602;&#1616;&#1610;&#1606;&#1614; &#64830;


(194. The sacred month is for the sacred month, and for the prohibited things, there is the Law of equality (Qisas). Then whoever transgresses against you, you transgress likewise against him. And fear Allah, and know that Allah is with Al-Muttaqin.)


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## Mr.Fitnah (Jul 25, 2009)

Standard main stream Islam

Shirk is worse than Killing 





Since Jihad involves killing and shedding the blood of men, Allah indicated that these men are committing disbelief in Allah, associating with Him (in the worship) and hindering from His path, and this is a much greater evil and more disastrous than killing. Abu Malik commented about what Allah said:


&#64831;&#1608;&#1614;&#1575;&#1604;&#1618;&#1601;&#1616;&#1578;&#1618;&#1606;&#1614;&#1577;&#1615; &#1571;&#1614;&#1588;&#1614;&#1583;&#1617;&#1615; &#1605;&#1616;&#1606;&#1614; &#1575;&#1604;&#1618;&#1602;&#1614;&#1578;&#1618;&#1604;&#1616;&#64830;


(And Al-Fitnah is worse than killing.) Meaning what you (disbelievers) are committing is much worse than killing.'' Abu Al-`Aliyah, Mujahid, Sa`id bin Jubayr, `Ikrimah, Al-Hasan, Qatadah, Ad-Dahhak and Ar-Rabi` bin Anas said that what Allah said:


&#64831;&#1608;&#1614;&#1575;&#1604;&#1618;&#1601;&#1616;&#1578;&#1618;&#1606;&#1614;&#1577;&#1615; &#1571;&#1614;&#1588;&#1614;&#1583;&#1617;&#1615; &#1605;&#1616;&#1606;&#1614; &#1575;&#1604;&#1618;&#1602;&#1614;&#1578;&#1618;&#1604;&#1616;&#64830;


(And Al-Fitnah is worse than killing.) "Shirk (polytheism) is worse than killing.''


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## Mr.Fitnah (Jul 25, 2009)

Some of you  playing along at home may notice a degree of "repeation "  on my post,Im sorry, Im constrained by  the limits of Islamic scripture.


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## Ceasaro (Jul 25, 2009)

Unfortunately you're not constrained by brevity.


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## del (Jul 25, 2009)

Ceasaro said:


> Unfortunately you're not constrained by brevity.


nor intelligence


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## Mr.Fitnah (Jul 25, 2009)

Many muslims like to say "Islam forbids the killing of innocent people", I'm asking for someone to prove unequivocally using Islamic scripture that non muslims are innocent, Thanks for reading my post.


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## Mr.Fitnah (Jul 25, 2009)

Ceasaro said:


> Unfortunately you're not constrained by brevity.


Good bye.


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## Kalam (Jul 25, 2009)

You acknowledge your own annoying repetitiveness, but do not seem to realize that what you're posting does nothing to disprove my point. It only serves to continuously remind us of how weak your arguments are.


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## Mr.Fitnah (Jul 25, 2009)

Kalam said:


> You acknowledge your own annoying repetitiveness, but do not seem to realize that what you're posting does nothing to disprove my point. It only serves to continuously remind us of how weak your arguments are.


Thanks, Enjoy your selfproclaimed interweb "victory" Im sorry I missed it.
I dont want to be right I just require some simple unequivocal proof.
Many muslims like to say "Islam forbids the killing of innocent people", I'm asking for someone to prove unequivocally using Islamic scripture that non muslims are innocent, Thanks for reading my post.


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## Kalam (Jul 25, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> Kalam said:
> 
> 
> > You acknowledge your own annoying repetitiveness, but do not seem to realize that what you're posting does nothing to disprove my point. It only serves to continuously remind us of how weak your arguments are.
> ...


I missed where I "proclaimed victory." 



Mr.Fitnah said:


> I dont want to be right I just require some simple unequivocal proof.


You only want to peddle your bullshit, dude. You'll reject anything I post out of hand.


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## Mr.Fitnah (Jul 25, 2009)

Kalam said:


> Mr.Fitnah said:
> 
> 
> > Kalam said:
> ...


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## Kalam (Jul 25, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> Sorry I mistook the self indulgent gloating as  such.


I'm sorry if I hurt your feelings. 



Mr.Fitnah said:


> I accept you and the dozens of followers in your deviant sect feel the way you do .
> 
> Billions of muslims  disagree.
> I merely present the mainstream of Islamic thought .


When Islam itself is being discussed, the words of the Qur'an take precedence over all else, including what may be considered mainstream thought and misinterpretation.



Mr.Fitnah said:


> You reject generations of Islamic scholars who are held in very high esteem noted for there accuracy it helping making  the Quran understandable while putting it in context  with the sunnah.


Many of those scholars base their interpretations on pure opinion or reports that are unverifiable or simply inaccurate, rendering meaningless their esteemed and revered works.



Mr.Fitnah said:


> These works that you  reject are the the structure of Islamic jurisprudance  and governance, they are taught in virtually every mosque and muslim university on earth.


The modern schools of jurisprudence and governance are far removed indeed from the Qur'anic basis of Islam - they are the product of centuries upon centuries of misguided _ijtihad _and politics. To equate any one of these schools to Islam itself is misleading. Islam, like all religions, has been in a state of ideological civil strife throughout most of its history.



Mr.Fitnah said:


> I agree it is bullshit, Islamic bullshit, the basis . for Islamic thought.


Hanbali, Shafi'i, or Ja'fari (etc) thought and jurisprudence are not Islamic thought and jurisprudence; they are Hanbali, Shafi'i, or Ja'fari. 



Mr.Fitnah said:


> *When push comes to shove from your Islamic brothers  you will adopt it as well, if not before then.*


I'll never be coerced by others into abandoning or changing my beliefs. 



Mr.Fitnah said:


> As  far as what you post, I have detected no unequivocal  proof that non muslims  are innocent , Just a high degree of tortured logic and distortions of mainstream thought.


Yet you have so far failed to directly address them.


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## Mr.Fitnah (Jul 25, 2009)

Oh course only you and a select few know the real Islam
.All those others are just misunderstanders.
The problem is , they all seem to agree on how to misunderstand.


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## Mr.Fitnah (Jul 25, 2009)

Kalam said:


> Yet you have so far failed to directly address them.


Lets review
Your reject nasikh(abrogation desipte its clear message in the Quran.)
Ulum al Qur'an - AL-NASIKH WA AL-MANSUKH- SunniPath Library - Books
you reject Tafsir & Sunna  as fabrication based on your failure to comprehend nasikh.
You derive your interpretation based on the narrowest mean of the words despite  the "prophets" example

Bukhari :: Fighting for the Cause of Allah (Jihaad) :: [4.52.220]


33:21. Indeed in the Messenger of Allâh (Muhammad ) you have a good example to follow for him who hopes in (the Meeting with) Allâh and the Last Day and remembers Allâh much. 

Bukhari :: Book 4 :: Volume 52 :: Hadith 220

Narrated Abu Huraira:

Allah's Apostle said, "I have been sent with the shortest expressions bearing the widest meanings, and I have been made victorious with terror (cast in the hearts of the enemy), and while I was sleeping, the keys of the treasures of the world were brought to me and put in my hand." Abu Huraira added: Allah's Apostle has left the world and now you, people, are bringing out those treasures (i.e. the Prophet did not benefit by them).

*That about covers it.*


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## Mr.Fitnah (Jul 25, 2009)

Abrogated Verses - ÇáÂíÇÊ ÇáãäÓæÎÉ


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## Mr.Fitnah (Jul 25, 2009)

Many muslims like to say "Islam forbids the killing of innocent people", I'm asking for someone to prove unequivocally using Islamic scripture that non muslims are innocent, Thanks for reading my post.


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## del (Jul 26, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> Many muslims like to say "Islam forbids the killing of innocent people", I'm asking for someone to prove unequivocally using Islamic scripture that non muslims are innocent, Thanks for reading my post.



you're a fucking idiot.

thanks for sounding out my post.


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## Mr.Fitnah (Jul 26, 2009)

Many muslims like to say "Islam forbids the killing of innocent people", I'm asking for someone to prove unequivocally using Islamic scripture that non muslims are innocent, Thanks for reading my post.


----------



## Ceasaro (Jul 26, 2009)

Questions for kalam: 

Are you for the jihad against israel? 
Were you happy deep down when you found out that it was for jihad that the planes were crashed into the world trade towers?
Do you follow sharia law?


----------



## PixieStix (Jul 26, 2009)

Islam forbids leaving Islam


----------



## Kalam (Jul 26, 2009)

Ceasaro said:


> Questions for kalam:
> 
> Are you for the jihad against israel?


Civilians? Never. If the people of Palestine are being attacked and oppressed, though, they have the right and the duty to retaliate against their oppressors (ie: not children and other civilians.) I'm not opposed to the existence of Israel per se, but Israel as it exists currently is an illegitimate oppressor-state. If you are wondering, no, I don't support Hamas.



Ceasaro said:


> Were you happy deep down when you found out that it was for jihad that the planes were crashed into the world trade towers?


No, I was livid - I had some family and friends in NYC that I figured were dead. Luckily, they weren't killed, but about 3,000 others were who had no connection whatsoever to America's blunders in the Middle East.



Ceasaro said:


> Do you follow sharia law?


I try to follow the Qur'an and a few ahadith that I believe to be authentic. I certainly don't abide by the convoluted mess of a system that is called sharia today.


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## Mr.Fitnah (Jul 26, 2009)

*The kufr of one who rules according to other than what Allaah revealed*
Is ruling with rules other than sharee&#8216;ah &#8220;kufr akbar&#8221; or &#8220;kufr asghar&#8221;?

Praise be to Allaah.

Allaah has commanded us to refer matters to His judgement and to establish Sharee&#8216;ah, and He has forbidden us to rule with anything else, as is clear from a number of aayaat in the Qur&#8217;aan, such as the aayaat in Soorat al-Maa&#8217;idah (5) which discuss ruling according to what Allaah has revealed, and mention the following topics:

The command to rule according to what Allaah has revealed: &#8220;And so judge between them by what Allaah has revealed . . .&#8221; [aayah 49]

Warning against ruling by other than what Allaah has revealed: &#8220;. . . and follow not their vain desires . . .&#8221; [aayah 49]

Warning against compromising on any detail of Sharee&#8216;ah, no matter how small: &#8220;. . . but beware of them lest they turn you far away from some of that which Allaah has sent down to you . . .&#8221; [aayah 49]

Forbidding seeking the ruling of jaahiliyyah, as is expressed in the rhetorical question &#8220;Do they then seek the judgement of (the Days of) Ignorance?&#8221; [aayah 50]

The statement that nobody is better than Allaah to judge: &#8220;. . . and who is better in judgement than Allaah for a people who have firm Faith?&#8221; [aayah 50]

The statement that whoever does not judge according to what Allaah revealed is a kaafir, a zaalim (oppressor or wrongdoer) and a faasiq (sinner), as Allaah says: &#8220;. . . And whoever does not judge by what Allaah has revealed, such are the kaafiroon.&#8221; [aayah 44]; &#8220;. . . And whoever does not judge by that which Allaah has revealed, such are the zaalimoon (polytheists and wrongdoers)&#8221; [aayah 45]; &#8220;. . . And whoever does not judge by what Allaah has revealed (then) such (people) are the faasiqoon (rebellious or disobedient).&#8221; [aayah 47].

The statement that it is obligatory for the Muslims to judge according to what Allaah has revealed, even if those who seek their judgement are not Muslim, as Allaah says: &#8220;. . . And if you judge, judge with justice between them. . .&#8221; [aayah 42]

Judging or ruling according to other than what Allaah has revealed is contrary to faith and Tawheed, which are Allaah&#8217;s rights. It may be counted as kufr akbar (greater kufr) or kufr asghar (lesser kufr) according to circumstances. Kufr akbar will make a person no longer a Muslim in cases such as the following:

Islam Question and Answer - The kufr of one who rules according to other than what Allaah revealed


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## Mr.Fitnah (Jul 26, 2009)

Snip from link

If he thinks that it is permissible to rule by something that contradicts the rule of Allaah and His Messenger, or he believes that it is not obligatory to rule according to what Allaah has revealed, or that the matter is optional. This is kufr which is contradictory to faith. Allaah revealed: &#8220;O Messenger! Let not those who hurry to fall into disbelief grieve you, of such who say: &#8216;We believe&#8217; with their mouths but their hearts have no faith. And of the Jews are men who listen much and eagerly to lies - listen to others who have not come to you; they say, &#8216;If you are given this, take it, but if you are not given this, then beware!&#8217; . . .&#8221; [al-Maa&#8217;idah 5:41]. He says: &#8220;Go to Muhammad (peace be upon him), and if he tells you that the ruling is lashes, accept it, but if he commands stoning, ignore what he says. Then Allaah revealed &#8220;. . . And whoever does not judge by what Allaah has revealed, such are the kaafiroon (disbelievers)&#8221; [al-Maa&#8217;idah 5:44].

*If he does not rule according to what Allah has revealed out of stubbornness and arrogance, he is a kaafir and has left Islaam, even if he does not deny the rule of Allaah. Stubbornness and arrogance may mean negligence and turning away, *as Allaah says: &#8220;Have you seen those (hypocrites) who claim that they believe in that which has been sent down to you, and that which was sent down before you, and they wish to go for judgement (in their disputes) to the Taaghoot (false judges, etc.) while they have been ordered to reject them. But Shaytaan wishes to lead them astray. And when it is said to them: &#8216;Come to what Allaah has sent down and to the Messenger,&#8217; see they hypocrites turn away from you (Muhammad) with aversion.&#8221; [al-Nisaa&#8217; 4:60-61]


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## Mr.Fitnah (Jul 26, 2009)

We  all are aware that the opinions posted  on the website founded and run by the foundation created  by the grand mufti of suadi arabia mean nothing.


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## Ceasaro (Jul 26, 2009)

Kalam said:


> Ceasaro said:
> 
> 
> > Questions for kalam:
> ...



So you're not a real muslim, just a pretender. Ok, just so I know.


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## Sunni Man (Jul 26, 2009)

Only Allah can judge who is muslim and who is kufir


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## Ceasaro (Jul 26, 2009)

Sunni Man said:


> Only Allah can judge who is muslim and who is kufir



Too late, he's already unmasked himself as a fake muslim. You're probably a fake too. Answer my 3 questions and we'll find out.


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## Sunni Man (Jul 26, 2009)

I don't need to prove anything to you


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## Ceasaro (Jul 26, 2009)

Sunni Man said:


> I don't need to prove anything to you



You just have, you're a faker too. A real muslim supports jihad against the west, sharia law and the destruction of israel. Isn't that what they call the 3 pillars of islam?


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## Sunni Man (Jul 26, 2009)

Ceasaro said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> > I don't need to prove anything to you
> ...


No


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## Ceasaro (Jul 26, 2009)

Sunni Man said:


> Ceasaro said:
> 
> 
> > Sunni Man said:
> ...



I bet you've never been to mecca either. You're a wannabe.


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## Sunni Man (Jul 26, 2009)

Ceasaro said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> > Ceasaro said:
> ...


Wrong again


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## Kalam (Jul 26, 2009)

Ceasaro said:


> Kalam said:
> 
> 
> > Ceasaro said:
> ...



Wrong, douchebag.


----------



## L.K.Eder (Jul 26, 2009)

Sunni Man said:


> Ceasaro said:
> 
> 
> > Sunni Man said:
> ...



three pillars of islam, oh my.


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## Mr.Fitnah (Jul 26, 2009)

Well that went pleasantly.


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## Ceasaro (Jul 27, 2009)

Sunni and Kalam, you have both exposed yourselves as fake muslims.

To find out for yourselves if you are a faker or not do this: go to Mecca, stand on a soapbox and shout out a sermon about how israel should be allowed to exist, how appalled you were on 9/11 and explain in detail which parts of sharia law you think are crap. 
Btw, where do you want your singed body parts buried? Presuming of course that we can even find your head.


----------



## Mr.Fitnah (Jul 27, 2009)

Many muslims like to say "Islam forbids the killing of innocent people", I'm asking for someone to prove unequivocally using Islamic scripture that non muslims are innocent, Thanks for reading my post.


----------



## mskafka (Jul 27, 2009)

Sunni Man said:


> Mr.Fitnah said:
> 
> 
> > Sunni Man said:
> ...



Well, this is basically true.  I've read the Quran through one time.  The impression that I got, is that Islam is overwhelmingly against anything that is self-centered.  Not all Americans are self-centered.  And not all Muslisms are terrorists.


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## mskafka (Jul 27, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> Many muslims like to say "Islam forbids the killing of innocent people", I'm asking for someone to prove unequivocally using Islamic scripture that non muslims are innocent, Thanks for reading my post.



I'm not sure that I follow the question that is being asked.  Can anyone help me?


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## L.K.Eder (Jul 27, 2009)

mskafka said:


> Mr.Fitnah said:
> 
> 
> > Many muslims like to say "Islam forbids the killing of innocent people", I'm asking for someone to prove unequivocally using Islamic scripture that non muslims are innocent, Thanks for reading my post.
> ...



you will be enlightened after reading 126,5 posts of Mr. Fitnah which are cloned and reappear periodically. that's what i was told at the filling station. thanks for reading my post.


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## Mr.Fitnah (Jul 27, 2009)

mskafka said:


> Mr.Fitnah said:
> 
> 
> > Many muslims like to say "Islam forbids the killing of innocent people", I'm asking for someone to prove unequivocally using Islamic scripture that non muslims are innocent, Thanks for reading my post.
> ...



Many muslims make blacket statements like
*The true religion of Islam forbids the killing of innocent
*
Terrorism cannot be Justified by Any Religion of God; Submission (Islam) forbids terrorism
*All forms of terrorist attack are roundly condemned in Islam. In Islam, it is a great sin to kill an innocent person, and anyone who does so will suffer great torment in the Hereafter
*Islam denounces terrorism.com

These statements  and those like them beg the question How does Islam define Innocent?
Im asking for definitive proof non muslims are innocent according to Islamic scripture


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## mal (Jul 27, 2009)

It's this Easy... Define Innocent by Islam's Standards...

We Know that Israeli Children are not...

Otherwise someone here could Produce a Condemnation of Islamists Targeting Israeli Children by a Leader in Islam from the ME...

I'll be here when that Surfaces...

PM me, if you have it.



peace...


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## Kalam (Jul 27, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> mskafka said:
> 
> 
> > Mr.Fitnah said:
> ...



It has been demonstrated for you that inequitable treatment of others is forbidden by Islam; now you're refusing to let this failure of a thread die by bitching about semantics.


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## Mr.Fitnah (Jul 27, 2009)

Kalam said:


> Mr.Fitnah said:
> 
> 
> > mskafka said:
> ...



2:193.  
And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allâh) and (all and every kind of) worship is for Allâh (Alone).[] But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against Az-Zâlimûn (the polytheists, and wrong-doers, etc.)  
The Noble Quran : Surat 2



5:32. Because of that We ordained for the Children of Israel that if anyone killed a person not in retaliation of murder, or (and) to spread mischief in the land - 

The Noble Quran : Surat 5


"Do not make mischief on the earth''), that is disbelief and acts of disobedience.'' Abu Ja`far said that Ar-Rabi` bin Anas said that Abu Al-`Aliyah said that Allah's statement,

Tafsir.com Tafsir Ibn Kathir


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## Mr.Fitnah (Jul 27, 2009)

Kalam said:


> It has been demonstrated for you that inequitable treatment of others is forbidden by Islam; now you're refusing to let this failure of a thread die by bitching about semantics.


Lets review how you demonstrate 
Your reject nasikh(abrogation desipte its clear message in the Quran.)
Ulum al Qur'an - AL-NASIKH WA AL-MANSUKH- SunniPath Library - Books
you reject Tafsir & Sunna as fabrication based on your failure to comprehend nasikh.
You derive your interpretation based on the narrowest mean of the words despite the "prophets" example

Bukhari :: Fighting for the Cause of Allah (Jihaad) :: [4.52.220]


33:21. Indeed in the Messenger of Allâh (Muhammad ) you have a good example to follow for him who hopes in (the Meeting with) Allâh and the Last Day and remembers Allâh much. 

Bukhari :: Book 4 :: Volume 52 :: Hadith 220

Narrated Abu Huraira:

Allah's Apostle said, "I have been sent with the shortest expressions bearing the widest meanings, and I have been made victorious with terror (cast in the hearts of the enemy), and while I was sleeping, the keys of the treasures of the world were brought to me and put in my hand." Abu Huraira added: Allah's Apostle has left the world and now you, people, are bringing out those treasures (i.e. the Prophet did not benefit by them).

That about covers it.


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## Kalam (Jul 27, 2009)

It has been demonstrated for you that inequitable treatment of others is forbidden by Islam; now you're refusing to let this failure of a thread die by bitching about semantics.


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## Mr.Fitnah (Jul 27, 2009)

You are a member of an all but dead minor deviant cult,that is still arguing  a case it lost hundreds of years .


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## Kalam (Jul 27, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> You are a member of an all but dead minor deviant cult,that is still arguing  a case it lost hundreds of years .



"Lost"? To whom, and how, exactly?


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## Mr.Fitnah (Jul 27, 2009)

Your cult has  been destroyed by the traditional intepretation of Islam 

Mu&#703;tazilah (Arabic &#1575;&#1604;&#1605;&#1593;&#1578;&#1586;&#1604;&#1577; al-mu`tazilah) is an islamic distinct school of speculative theology that flourished in Basra and Baghdad (8th&#8211;10th centuries ad) and still adopted by a small dispersed minority of muslims and some Islamic intellectuals. It is also anglicized as Mu&#703;tazilite. They are usually not accepted by Sunni scholars, because the Mu'tazilis believe that the mind is superior than the scripture as it can not be considered true but by the mind, therefore, they usually interpret Quran further from its literal meaning compared to the Sunni interpretation if they find a conflict, the method which is refused by the Sunnite scholars. The theology of the Mu'tazilis concerning the nature of God has influenced widely that of the Shi'a Islam, it has been partly integrated into the theology of the Imami Shiism by many of its scholars since the 10th century. Also Zayd ibn Ali, the founder of the Zaidi Shiism was a student of Wasil ibn Ata in theology.


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## Mr.Fitnah (Jul 27, 2009)

*till adopted by a small dispersed minority of muslims and some Islamic intellectuals.*
End of story.
The vast majority of muslims in the world  see your ideas  as heretical and will bring you to heel  when the time comes.
This concluded the discussion of  the mutz.


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## Kalam (Jul 27, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> The vast majority of muslims in the world  see your ideas  as heretical and will bring you to heel  when the time comes.



My non-Mu'tazili friends (essentially all of my Muslim friends) don't have a problem with my beliefs. They are capable of disagreeing with me respectfully, as my non-Muslim friends are.


----------



## Mr.Fitnah (Jul 27, 2009)

Tafsir.com Tafsir Ibn Kathir


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## Mr.Fitnah (Jul 27, 2009)

9:111. Verily, Allâh has purchased of the believers their lives and their properties; for the price that theirs shall be the Paradise. They fight in Allâh's Cause, so they kill (others) and are killed. It is a promise in truth which is binding on Him in the Taurât (Torah) and the Injeel (Gospel) and the Qur'ân. And who is truer to his covenant than Allâh? Then rejoice in the bargain which you have concluded. That is the supreme success[].

9:112. (The believers whose lives Allâh has purchased are) those who repent to Allâh (from polytheism and hypocrisy, etc.), who worship Him, who praise Him, who fast (or go out in Allâh's Cause), who bow down (in prayer), who prostrate themselves (in prayer), who enjoin (people) for Al-Ma'rûf (i.e. Islâmic Monotheism and all what Islâm has ordained) and forbid (people) from Al-Munkar (i.e. disbelief, polytheism of all kinds and all that Islâm has forbidden), and who observe the limits set by Allâh (do all that Allâh has ordained and abstain from all kinds of sins and evil deeds which Allâh has forbidden). And give glad tidings to the believers.[]

The Noble Quran : Surat 9


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## Kalam (Jul 27, 2009)

Non sequitur.


----------



## Mr.Fitnah (Jul 27, 2009)

Kalam said:


> Mr.Fitnah said:
> 
> 
> > The vast majority of muslims in the world  see your ideas  as heretical and will bring you to heel  when the time comes.
> ...



33:36.  
It is not for a believer, man or woman, when Allâh and His Messenger have decreed a matter that they should have any option in their decision. And whoever disobeys Allâh and His Messenger, he has indeed strayed in a plain error. 

The Prohibition of Being Loyal Friends with Disbelievers


This Ayah discourages and forbids taking the enemies of Islam and its people, such as the People of the Book and the polytheists, as friends. These disbelievers mock the most important acts that any person could ever perform, the honorable, pure acts of Islam which include all types of good for this life and the Hereafter. They mock such acts and make them the subject of jest and play, because this is what these acts represent in their misguided minds and cold hearts. Allah said;
Tafsir.com Tafsir Ibn Kathir

The Prohibition of Supporting the Disbelievers


Allah prohibited His believing servants from becoming supporters of the disbelievers, or to take them as comrades with whom they develop friendships, rather than the believers. Allah warned against such behavior when He said,



Tafsir.com Tafsir Ibn Kathir


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## Kalam (Jul 27, 2009)

Yawn.

_It may be that Allah will bring about friendship between you and those of them whom you hold as enemies. And Allah is Powerful; and Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

Allah forbids you not respecting those who fight you not for religion, nor drive you forth from your homes, that you show them kindness and deal with them justly. Surely Allah loves the doers of justice.

Allah forbids you only respecting those who fight you for religion, and drive you forth from your homes and help in your expulsion, that you make friends of them; and whoever makes friends of them, these are the wrongdoers._ - 60:7-9​


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## Ceasaro (Jul 28, 2009)

*&#8220;It has been demonstrated for you that inequitable treatment of others is forbidden by Islam.&#8221;*

Kalam, our favorite fake muslim is at it again. OK, so if your above statement is true, then why are women in islam so badly treated? Why don&#8217;t the men wear a niqab too? And get stoned for getting raped...

*&#8220;My non-Mu'tazili friends (essentially all of my Muslim friends) don't have a problem with my beliefs. They are capable of disagreeing with me respectfully, as my non-Muslim friends are.&#8221;*

But they still know you&#8217;re not a real muslim. You probably don't even have a big bushy beard.


----------



## JW Frogen (Jul 28, 2009)

See, I really don&#8217;t get religious fundamentalism of any kind? Islam or otherwise.

If we are going to go all fundamental rather than evolutional why not just ask what the first ape who (it) climbed down from the trees and cleaved his fellow ape with a rock thinks?

Or we can go with the apes that want to walk away from all that?

Just a thought.


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## Mr.Fitnah (Jul 28, 2009)

Kalam said:


> Yawn.
> 
> _It may be that Allah will bring about friendship between you and those of them whom you hold as enemies. And Allah is Powerful; and Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
> 
> ...


 That would be great if that were the final statement in the Quran ,It is not,
If you want to say you have non muslims friends, feel to to say so.
 Sura 60
The Noble Quran

is abrogated by sura 9 and 5

The Noble Quran : Surat 9
The Noble Quran : Surat 5

We have proven  that disbelief is an act of rebellion against allah, whose injustice must be dealt with by muslims, true believers.
We have proven you fail to make rational   scripture based interpretations 
This is a good time to introduce :
the Treaty of Hudaybiyya, which states .
3. If any Makkan accepts Islam and seeks sanctuary with the Muslims in Medina, they would extradite him to Makkah. But if a Muslim, fleeing from Medina, seeks sanctuary with the pagans in Makkah, they would not extradite him.
_As history shows _
Umm Kulthum, joined the muslims in Medina, and her two brothers came to claim her as provided in the treaty, Muhammad refused to return her,claim she was a women and not a man so the treaty did not apply, thus began the Islamic practice of hairsplitting .Eventually Mohammad starting taking men from mecca as well. truly breaking the treaty.


----------



## mal (Jul 28, 2009)

Ceasaro said:


> *It has been demonstrated for you that inequitable treatment of others is forbidden by Islam.*
> 
> Kalam, our favorite fake muslim is at it again. OK, so if your above statement is true, then why are women in islam so badly treated? Why dont the men wear a niqab too? And get stoned for getting raped...
> 
> ...



You don't Expect an Answer to that, do you?...



peace...


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## Fatality (Jul 30, 2009)

"Did I not tell thee that thou couldst not bear with me? Then Moses said: Be not wroth with me that I forgot, and be not hard upon me for my fault, and then they proceeded further and found a boy playing with other boys. Al-Khadir took hold of the boy's head from the top and plucked it out with his hands (i.e. decapitated him). Moses said, "Have you killed an innocent soul who has killed none."

al khidar's response for the murder of the child:

"As for the boy, his parents are believers, and we were afraid lest he should impose on them with his insolence and disbelief"

Tell me, what act of "hostility" did the child commit, or would have committed according to al khidar? I mean its pretty clear but let&#8217;s let you blurt it out.


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## Mr.Fitnah (Aug 2, 2009)

Many muslims like to say "Islam forbids the killing of innocent people", I'm asking for some one to prove unequivocally using Islamic scripture that none muslims are innocent.


----------



## Wize Owl (Aug 3, 2009)

it would be easier and shorter to list what Islam DOES allow. Not much from what I can tell.


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## Mr.Fitnah (Aug 5, 2009)

Kalam said:


> [http://www.usmessageboard.com/1388843-post692.html.


That is just hystirical  your sources for  the scripture are incomplete excepts from Sir William Muir ,compiled and weaved into a story?
Here is the complete Muir comments concerning the satanic verses.
It says something vastly different then MM Ali's paraphrasing.

The life of Mahomet and history of ... - Google Books[/QUOTE]

I think it bears repeating that "kalam's" proof consists mainly of a commentary whose main thrust  that has been lifted in part, leaving out the entire main part of Muir's argument  and the scriptural evidence.
Paraphrasing  some moot question about Mohammad and Islam as if that were Muir's position,
Simply shameful and should bring into question the intellectual and academic power and honesty of muslims in general and  of the mutz cult in particular.
http://www.usmessageboard.com/1388843-post692.html
Handcrafting history for political purposes

*BUSTED*
I do not attack anyones religion, I only ask for real proof that non muslims are innocent when one considers  the popular sentiment "Islam forbids the killing of innocent people."
This proof must include legal decisions from the ulema, Fatwas that reverse the Quran that states 

8:39

And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and polytheism: i.e. worshipping others besides Allâh) and the religion (worship) will all be for Allâh Alone [in the whole of the world[]]. But if they cease (worshipping others besides Allâh), then certainly, Allâh is All-Seer of what they do 
2:193.  
And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allâh) and (all and every kind of) worship is for Allâh (Alone).[] But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against Az-Zâlimûn (the polytheists, and wrong-doers, etc193

Index of /what-is-islam/quran/noble

Tafsir.com Tafsir Ibn Kathir

Tafsir.com Tafsir Ibn Kathir

Tafsir.com Tafsir Ibn Kathir
Which abrogate 2:256, which was uttered in 614 AD and abrogated in 627 AD
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u702axfbQao&feature=related]YouTube - Islam: What the West Needs to Know - Pt.2[/ame]


----------



## Mr.Fitnah (Aug 5, 2009)

As Muslims, our job is to establish once again the "Khilafat &#8216;Ala Minhaj-e-Risalat" which requires people to follow Allah&#8217;s laws. However, those who want to lead this effort must first bring their own lives under the fold of the laws of Allah.

Bazm-e-Tolu-e-Islam
ALLAMA GHULAM AHMAD PARWEZ
the auther of the documents on 
http://www.mutazila.com/
Excerpted from the website description:

_*The purpose of creating this page is to compile and preserve literature of Muslim scholars, who are commonly labeled as Modernist, Rationalist, Quran-only, Reformist, Anti-Hadith, or Mutazila.
*_Seems to be no contratiction,

8:39

And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and polytheism: i.e. worshipping others besides Allâh) and the religion (worship) will all be for Allâh Alone [in the whole of the world[]]. But if they cease (worshipping others besides Allâh), then certainly, Allâh is All-Seer of what they do 
2:193.  
And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allâh) and (all and every kind of) worship is for Allâh (Alone).[] But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against Az-Zâlimûn (the polytheists, and wrong-doers, etc193

Index of /what-is-islam/quran/noble

Tafsir.com Tafsir Ibn Kathir

Tafsir.com Tafsir Ibn Kathir

Tafsir.com Tafsir Ibn Kathir


----------



## Mr.Fitnah (Aug 5, 2009)

As far as ahaadith are concerned, Tolu-e-Islam considers all those ahaadith as true which are in accordance with the Quran or which do not stain the character of the Prophet (P) or his companions (R).
Bazm-e-Tolu-e-Islam

Not what I call a critical standard for truth.


----------



## Mr.Fitnah (Aug 5, 2009)

The Noble Quran : Surat 68
Clearly  allah swears on a "Pen" that mohammad is not a mad man.


----------



## Mr.Fitnah (Aug 5, 2009)

Intense said:


> I for one never doubted your intent, Theft, Imprisonment, Torture, Rape, and Murder, for all that offend your ego. Totalitarianism for beginners. You and your translation are pathetic. You have no place in civilization. Live by the sword, die by it.



Who are you talking to?


----------



## Sunni Man (Aug 5, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> Intense said:
> 
> 
> > I for one never doubted your intent, Theft, Imprisonment, Torture, Rape, and Murder, for all that offend your ego. Totalitarianism for beginners. You and your translation are pathetic. You have no place in civilization. Live by the sword, die by it.
> ...



Most likely to himself


----------



## Kalam (Aug 5, 2009)

Tolu-e-Islam is not a Mu'tazili group; they are a distinct movement that happens to share our belief in Qur'anic primacy. G. A. Parwez isn't the author of the website, fool, he's been dead for over 20 years. The site simply provides links to some of his works.

Abrogation was disproved, and you have done nothing to refute the argument I provided concerning it. I'll now leave you to talk to yourself and wallow in your stupidity.


----------



## Mr.Fitnah (Aug 5, 2009)

Kalam said:


> Tolu-e-Islam is not a Mu'tazili group; they are a distinct movement that happens to share our belief in Qur'anic primacy. G. A. Parwez isn't the author of the website, fool, he's been dead for over 20 years. The site simply provides links to some of his works.


About quran.com is directly involved  with promoting GA Parwez it is at the bottom of  pretty much every page at
Quran: The Constitution for Humanity





Quran: The Constitution for Humanity

edit Description

Excerpted from the website description:

The purpose of creating this page is to compile and preserve literature of Muslim scholars, who are commonly labeled as Modernist, Rationalist, Quran-only, Reformist, Anti-Hadith, or Mutazila.
Aboutquran.com - AboutUs Wiki Page

Related Domains

Parvez-Video.com.

*Who is the author of the site you link to?*


----------



## Mr.Fitnah (Aug 5, 2009)

Kalam said:


> Abrogation was disproved, and you have done nothing to refute the argument I provided concerning it.



Since you brought it up.


An example of the abrogation: there are 124 versus that call for tolerance and patience which have been canceled and replaced by this one single verse: 

9.5. Then when the Sacred Months (the Ist, 7th, 11th, and 12th months of the Islâmic calendar) have passed, then kill the Mushrikûn (see V.2:105) wherever you find them, and capture them and besiege them, and prepare for them each and every ambush. But if they repent and perform As-Salât (Iqâmat-as-Salât), and give Zakât, then leave their way free. Verily, Allâh is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.

Quran, there are only 43 Surahs that were not affected by this concept. 

This doctrine is based on the Quran, where Allah allegedly says in Surah 2:106. Whatever a Verse (revelation) do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, We bring a better one or similar to it. Know you not that Allâh is able to do all things?

Also, in Surah 
16101. And when We change a Verse [of the Qur'ân, i.e. cancel (abrogate) its order] in place of another, and Allâh knows the best of what He sends down, they (the disbelievers) say: "You (O Muhammad SAW) are but a Muftari! (forger, liar)." Nay, but most of them know not.
The Noble Quran : Surat 16

The Abrogator and the Abrogated 
In their attempt to polish Islam's image, Muslim activists usually quote the Meccan passages of the Quran that call for love, peace and patience. The deliberately hid the Medenan passages that call for killing, decapitating, and maiming. 

Muslim activists also fail to reveal to people in the West a major doctrine in Islam called "al-Nasikh wal-Mansoukh" (the Abrogator and the Abrogated). This simply means that when a recent verse in the Quran gives a contradictory view to another verse that preceded it (chronologically), the recent verse abrogates (cancels and replaces) the old verse and renders it null and void. 

Tafsir.com Tafsir Ibn Kathir


[al-Tawbah 9:5] 

He did not say,if they pay the jizyah. The Jews, Christians and Magians are to be asked to enter Islam; if they refuse then they should be asked to pay the jizyah. If they refuse to pay the jizyah then the Muslims must fight them if they are able to do so. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning): 

Fight against those who (1) believe not in Allaah,(2) nor in the Last Day,(3) nor forbid that which has been forbidden by Allaah and His Messenger (Muhammad),(4) and those who acknowledge not the religion of truth (i.e. Islam) among the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians), until they pay the Jizyah with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued

[al-Tawbah 9:29] 

And it was proven that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) accepted the jizyah from the Magians, but it was not proven that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) or his companions (may Allaah be pleased with them) accepted the jizyah from anyone except the three groups mentioned above. 

The basic principle concerning that is the words of Allaah (interpretation of the meaning): 

And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and polytheism, i.e. worshipping others besides Allaah), and the religion (worship) will all be for Allaah Alone [in the whole of the world]

[al-Anfaal 8:39] 

Then when the Sacred Months (the 1st, 7th, 11th, and 12th months of the Islamic calendar) have passed, then kill the Mushrikoon (see V.2:105) wherever you find them, and capture them and besiege them, and lie in wait for them in each and every ambush. But if they repent [by rejecting Shirk (polytheism) and accept Islamic Monotheism] and perform As-Salaah (Iqaamat-as-Salaah), and give Zakaah, then leave their way free. Verily, Allaah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful

[al-Tawbah 9:5] 

This verse is known as Ayat al-Sayf (the verse of the sword). 

These and similar verses abrogate the verses which say that there is no compulsion to become Muslim. 

And Allaah is the Source of strength. 

Majmoo Fataawa wa Maqaalaat lil-Shaykh Ibn Baaz, 6/219 


Islam Question and Answer - There is no compulsion to accept Islam

*Refuted.*


----------



## Kalam (Aug 5, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> An example of the abrogation: there are 124 versus that call for tolerance and patience which have been canceled and replaced by this one single verse:
> 
> 9.5. Then when the Sacred Months (the Ist, 7th, 11th, and 12th months of the Islâmic calendar) have passed, then kill the Mushrikûn (see V.2:105) wherever you find them, and capture them and besiege them, and prepare for them each and every ambush. But if they repent and perform As-Salât (Iqâmat-as-Salât), and give Zakât, then leave their way free. Verily, Allâh is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.


Your argument once again falls flat because it depends on 9:5 being removed from its proper context. Specific guidelines are detailed in the ayat close to the passage in question; namely, that the mushrikuun being slain must be those who are guilty of all of the following:

A. Refusing to reach an agreement with Muslims (9:1, 9:4, 9:7)
B. Breaking their promises to and treaties with Muslims (9:8, 9:10, 9:12 9:13)
C. Reviling Islam (9:12)
C. Initiating hostilities with Muslims. (9:13)

Ayat cited, emphasis mine: 

_A declaration of *immunity from Allah and His Messenger to those of the Idolaters with whom you made an agreement.* - 9:1

Except those of the idolaters with whom you made an agreement, then they have not failed you in anything and have not backed up any one against you; *so fulfil their agreement to the end of their term. Surely Allah loves those who keep their duty.* - 9:4

How can there be an agreement for the idolaters with Allah and with his Messenger, except those with whom you made an agreement at the Sacred Mosque? *So as long as they are true to you, be true to them. Surely Allah loves those who keep their duty.* - 9:7

How (can it be)? And if they prevail against you, *they respect neither ties of relationship nor covenant in your case.* They would please you with their mouths while their hearts refuse; and most of them are transgressors. - 9:8

*They respect neither ties of relationship nor covenant*, in the case of a believer. And these are they who go beyond the limits. - 9:10

*And if they break their oaths after their agreement and revile your religion,* then fight the leaders of disbelief -- surely their oaths are nothing -- so that they may desist. - 9:12

Will you not fight a people who *broke their oaths* and aimed at the expulsion of the Messenger, *and they attacked you first?* Do you fear them? But Allah has more right than you should fear Him, if you are believers. - 9:13_​
Basically, abiding by the half-brained beliefs you support requires ignoring the entire remainder of the Surah at-Tawba's beginning section. 



Mr.Fitnah said:


> Quran, there are only 43 Surahs that were not affected by this concept.


False. We've now established that 9:5 does not bear the significance you mistakenly assumed it did. 



Mr.Fitnah said:


> This doctrine is based on the Quran, where Allah allegedly says in Surah 2:106. Whatever a Verse (revelation) do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, We bring a better one or similar to it. Know you not that Allâh is able to do all things?


Already addressed in the argument you clearly still have yet to read. 



Kalam said:


> *The other verse which is supposed to lend support to the theory runs thus: "Whatever message we abrogate or cause to be forgotten, We bring one better than it or one like it" (2:106). A reference to the context will show that the Jews or the followers of previous revelations are here addressed.* Of these it is said: "they say: We believe in that which was revealed to us; and they deny what is besides that" (2:91). So they were told that if a certain revelation was abrogated, it was only to give place to a better one. And there is mention not only of abrogation but also of something that was forgotten. The words "or cause to be forgotten" cannot refer to the Qur'an at all because no portion of it could be said to have been forgotten so as to require a new revelation in its place. There is no point in supposing that God should make the Prophet forget a verse and then reveal a new one in its place. Why not, if he really had forgotten a verse, remind him of the one forgotten? But even if it is supposed that his memory ever failed in retaining (which really never happened), that verse was quite safely preserved in writing, and the mere failure of memory could not necessitate a new revelation. That the Prophet never forgot what was recited to him is plainly stated in the Qur'an: "We shall make the recite, so thou shalt not forget" (87:6). History also bears out the fact that he never forgot any portion of the Qur'anic revelation. Sometimes the whole of a very long chapter would be revealed to him in one portion, as in the case of the sixth chapter which extends over twenty sections, but he would cause it to be written without delay, and make his companions learn it by heart, and recite it in public prayers, and that without the change of even a letter, notwithstanding the fact that he himself could not read from a written copy, nor did the written copies, as a rule, remain in his possession. It was a miracle indeed that he never forgot any portion of the Qur'an, though other things he might forget, and it is to his forgetfulness in other things that the words _except what Allah pleases_, in the next verse (87:7), refer. On the other hand, it is a fact that parts of the older revelations had been utterly lost and forgotten, and thus the Qur'an was needed to take the place of that which was abrogated, and that which had been forgotten by the world.





Mr.Fitnah said:


> Also, in Surah
> 16101.



That's addressed in the same argument, Copernicus:



Kalam said:


> *That certain verses of the Qur'an are abrogated by others is now an exploded theory. The two passages on which it was supposed to rest, refer, really, to the abrogation, not of the Qur'an but of the previous revelations whose place the Holy Book had taken. The first verse is contained in the sixteenth chapter (al-Nahl) - a Makkah revelation - and runs thus: "And when We change a message for a message, - and Allah knows best what He reveals - they say: Thou art only a forger" (16:101).* It is a fact that details of the Islamic law were revealed at Madinah and it is in relation to these details that the theory of abrogation has been broached. Therefore, a Makkah revelation would not speak of abrogation. But the reference in the above verse is to the abrogation, not of the Qur'anic verses but of the previous Divine messages or revelations, consequent upon revelation of the Qur'an. The context shows this clearly to be the case, for the opponents are here made to say that the Prophet was a forger. He was so accused by the opponents not because he announced the abrogation of certain verses in the Qur'an but because he claimed that the Qur'an was a divine revelation which had taken the place of previous revelations. They argued that it was not a revelation at all: "Only a mortal teaches him" (16:103). According to them the whole of the Qur'an, and not merely a particular verse of it, was a forgery. The theory of abrogation, therefore, cannot be based on this verse which speaks only of one revelation or one law taking the place of another.





Mr.Fitnah said:


> The Abrogator and the Abrogated
> In their attempt to polish Islam's image, Muslim activists usually quote the Meccan passages of the Quran that call for love, peace and patience. The deliberately hid the Medenan passages that call for killing, decapitating, and maiming.
> 
> Muslim activists also fail to reveal to people in the West a major doctrine in Islam called "al-Nasikh wal-Mansoukh" (the Abrogator and the Abrogated). This simply means that when a recent verse in the Quran gives a contradictory view to another verse that preceded it (chronologically), the recent verse abrogates (cancels and replaces) the old verse and renders it null and void.


I just checked, sir; I'm afraid your argument is still false. Please try another. 



Mr.Fitnah said:


> *Refuted.*


LMAO




(Bracing for new batch of copy-pasted inanities...)


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## Kalam (Aug 5, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> Kalam said:
> 
> 
> > Tolu-e-Islam is not a Mu'tazili group; they are a distinct movement that happens to share our belief in Qur'anic primacy. G. A. Parwez isn't the author of the website, fool, he's been dead for over 20 years. The site simply provides links to some of his works.
> ...


Dunno. Email him/her and ask.


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## Mr.Fitnah (Aug 5, 2009)

> yak yak yak


That is one interpretation.
I do not find it has any merit.
It does not conform with the harmony of the Quran, nor does it reflect the character of Mohammad.
The traditional understanding is thus.

Existing Peace Treaties remained valid until the End of Their Term 

 This is an exception regulating the longest extent of time for those who have a general treaty - with out time mentioned - to four months. 

They would have four months to travel the lands in search of sanctuary for themselves wherever they wish. Those whose treaty mentioned a specifec limited term, then the longest it would extend was to the point of its agreed upon termination date.

 Hadiths in this regard preceeded. So anyone who had a treaty with Allah's Messenger , it lasted until its specific termination date. However, those in this category were required to refrain from breaking the terms of the agreement with Muslims and from helping non-Muslims against Muslims. This is the type whose peace agreement with Muslims was carried out to its end. Allah encouraged honoring such peace treaties, saying,



(Surely, Allah loves those who have Taqwa) &#64831;9:4&#64830;, who keep their promises.)



(5. So when the Sacred Months have passed, then fight the Mushrikin wherever you find them, and capture them and besiege them, and lie in wait for them in each and every ambush. *But if they repent and perform the Salah, and give the Zakah*, then leave their way free. Verily, Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.)

*This is the Ayah of the Sword *


Mujahid, `Amr bin Shu`ayb, Muhammad bin Ishaq, Qatadah, As-Suddi and `Abdur-Rahman bin Zayd bin Aslam said that the four months mentioned in this Ayah are the four-month grace period mentioned in the earlier Ayah,


(So travel freely for four months throughout the land.) Allah said next,

(So when the Sacred Months have passed...), meaning, `Upon the end of the four months during which We prohibited you from fighting the idolators, and which is the grace period We gave them, then fight and kill the idolators wherever you may find them.' Allah's statement next,


(then fight the Mushrikin wherever you find them), means, on the earth in general, except for the Sacred Area, for Allah said,

(And fight not with them at Al-Masjid Al-Haram, unless they fight you there. But if they attack you, then fight them. )&#64831;2:191&#64830; Allah said here,

(and capture them), executing some and keeping some as prisoners,

(and besiege them, and lie in wait for them in each and every ambush), do not wait until you find them. Rather, seek and besiege them in their areas and forts, gather intelligence about them in the various roads and fairways so that what is made wide looks ever smaller to them. This way, they will have no choice, but to die or embrace Islam,


*Who performs Salah, and gives  Zakah?* 

*Only muslims*

Conforming with the harmony of the Quran.
8:39

And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and polytheism: i.e. worshipping others besides Allâh) and the religion (worship) will all be for Allâh Alone [in the whole of the world[]]. But if they cease (worshipping others besides Allâh), then certainly, Allâh is All-Seer of what they do 
2:193.  
And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allâh) and (all and every kind of) worship is for Allâh (Alone).[] But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against Az-Zâlimûn (the polytheists, and wrong-doers, etc193

Index of /what-is-islam/quran/noble

Tafsir.com Tafsir Ibn Kathir

Tafsir.com Tafsir Ibn Kathir

Tafsir.com Tafsir Ibn Kathir


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## Mr.Fitnah (Aug 5, 2009)

25. Crooked reasoning.

Do not indulge in absurd reasoning. Present your case with clear arguments, reasons, wisdom and exhortation. (16:125) "Invite people to the way of your Sustainer with wisdom and exhortation; talk to them in an elegant manner, keeping before yourselves the aims and objects of the Divine Laws and of the moral values."


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## Mr.Fitnah (Aug 5, 2009)

Another example of quranic abrogation.

Disapproval

4:43. O you who believe! Approach not As Salât (the prayer) when you are in a drunken state until you know (the meaning) of what you utter, nor when you are in a state of Janâba, (i.e. in a state of sexual impurity and have not yet taken a bath) except when travelling on the road (without enough water, or just passing through a mosque), till you wash your whole body. And if you are ill, or on a journey, or one of you comes after answering the call of nature, or you have been in contact with women (by sexual relations) and you find no water, perform Tayammum with clean earth and rub therewith your faces and hands (Tayammum)[]. Truly, Allâh is Ever Oft Pardoning, Oft Forgiving.

Banning

5:90. O you who believe! Intoxicants (all kinds of alcoholic drinks), gambling, Al Ansâb[], and Al Azlâm (arrows for seeking luck or decision) are an abomination of Shaitân's (Satan) handiwork. So avoid (strictly all) that (abomination) in order that you may be successful[].


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## Mr.Fitnah (Aug 5, 2009)

"Kalam" everyone who has read  your post knows you disagree with establish traditional Islamic theory.
Naskh is a fact.


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## Kalam (Aug 5, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> That is one interpretation.


It's the only interpretation that doesn't fail to take all surrounding ayat into account. It's the proper Qur'anic interpretation. 



Mr.Fitnah said:


> I do not find it has any merit.


Of course you don't; if you were intellectually honest enough to admit that you were wrong, you wouldn't be here. 



Mr.Fitnah said:


> It does not conform with the harmony of the Quran,


It absolutely does. Injunctions forbidding aggressive warfare are present throughout the book. 



Mr.Fitnah said:


> nor does it reflect the character of Mohammad.
> The traditional understanding is thus.


Ibn Kathir lived 500 years after Hashimi, Ma'mun's cousin, who apparently thought it okay to cite the supposedly "abrogated" ayah 2:256 -

_"bring forward all the arguments you wish and say whatever you please and
speak your mind freely. Now that you are safe and free to say whatever you
please appoint some arbitrator who will impartially judge between us and lean
only towards the truth and be free from the empery of passion, and that arbitrator
shall be Reason, whereby God makes us responsible for our own rewards and
punishments. Herein I have dealt justly with you and have given you full security
and am ready to accept whatever decision Reason may give for me or against me.
For "There is no compulsion in religion" (Qur'an 2:256) and I have only invited
you to accept our faith willingly and of your own accord and have pointed out the
hideousness of your present belief. Peace be with you and the blessings of God!"_

http://www.minaret.org/ifrane.pdf​
Abrogation was the product of a failure to properly understand the Qur'anic message. It was apparently understood in the 9th century, and it is properly understood now. What a shame it is that Ibn Kathir's flawed _tafsir_ gained as much popularity as it did.



Mr.Fitnah said:


> (then fight the Mushrikin wherever you find them), means, on the earth in general, except for the Sacred Area, for Allah said,


An explanation that utterly fails to consider the relevant ayat I presented. 



Mr.Fitnah said:


> Conforming with the harmony of the Quran.
> 8:39
> 
> And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and polytheism: i.e. worshipping others besides Allâh) and the religion (worship) will all be for Allâh Alone [in the whole of the world[]]. But if they cease (worshipping others besides Allâh), then certainly, Allâh is All-Seer of what they do



_And if thou fear treachery on the part of a people, throw back to them (their treaty) on terms of equality. Surely Allah loves not the treacherous._ - 8:58

_And if they incline to peace, incline thou also to it, and trust in Allah. Surely he is the Hearer, the Knower. And if they intend to deceive thee, then surely Allah is sufficient for thee. He it is Who strengthened thee with His help and with the believers._ - 8:61-62​


Mr.Fitnah said:


> 2:193.
> And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allâh) and (all and every kind of) worship is for Allâh (Alone).[] But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against Az-Zâlimûn (the polytheists, and wrong-doers, etc193



_*And fight in the way of Allah against those who fight against you but be not aggressive. Surely Allah loves not the aggressors.*_ - 2:190​
And, of course:

_There is no compulsion in religion -- the right way is indeed clearly distinct from error. So whoever disbelieves in the devil and believes in Allah, he indeed lays hold on the firmest handle which shall never break. And Allah is Hearing, Knowing._ - 2:256​


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## Kalam (Aug 5, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> 4:43. O you who believe! Approach not As Salât (the prayer) when you are in a drunken state



 &#1587;&#1615;&#1603;&#1614;&#1648;&#1585;&#1614;&#1609;&#1648; 

"Sukaraa" can be used to refer to any state of confusion and is not specific to intoxication with alcohol.


----------



## Kalam (Aug 5, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> "Kalam" everyone who has read  your post knows you disagree with establish traditional Islamic theory.
> Naskh is a fact.



What is traditional is by no means established. It's a poor reflection on the current state of Islam if relying on the Qur'an is considered a break from the status quo.


----------



## Mr.Fitnah (Aug 5, 2009)

No Compulsion in Religion 


Allah said,

&#64831;&#1604;&#1575;&#1614; &#1573;&#1616;&#1603;&#1618;&#1585;&#1614;&#1575;&#1607;&#1614; &#1601;&#1616;&#1609; &#1575;&#1604;&#1583;&#1617;&#1616;&#1610;&#1606;&#1616;&#64830;


(There is no compulsion in religion), meaning, "Do not force anyone to become Muslim, for Islam is plain and clear, and its proofs and evidence are plain and clear. Therefore, there is no need to force anyone to embrace Islam. Rather, whoever Allah directs to Islam, opens his heart for it and enlightens his mind, will embrace Islam with certainty. Whoever Allah blinds his heart and seals his hearing and sight, then he will not benefit from being forced to embrace Islam.''


It was reported that the Ansar were the reason behind revealing this Ayah, although its indication is general in meaning. Ibn Jarir recorded that Ibn `Abbas said &#64831;that before Islam&#64830;, "When (an Ansar) woman would not bear children who would live, she would vow that if she gives birth to a child who remains alive, she would raise him as a Jew. When Banu An-Nadir (the Jewish tribe) were evacuated &#64831;from Al-Madinah&#64830;, some of the children of the Ansar were being raised among them, and the Ansar said, `We will not abandon our children.' Allah revealed,


&#64831;&#1604;&#1575;&#1614; &#1573;&#1616;&#1603;&#1618;&#1585;&#1614;&#1575;&#1607;&#1614; &#1601;&#1616;&#1609; &#1575;&#1604;&#1583;&#1617;&#1616;&#1610;&#1606;&#1616; &#1602;&#1614;&#1583; &#1578;&#1617;&#1614;&#1576;&#1614;&#1610;&#1617;&#1614;&#1606;&#1614; &#1575;&#1604;&#1585;&#1617;&#1615;&#1588;&#1618;&#1583;&#1615; &#1605;&#1616;&#1606;&#1614; &#1575;&#1604;&#1618;&#1594;&#1614;&#1610;&#1617;&#1616;&#64830;


(There is no compulsion in religion. Verily, the right path has become distinct from the wrong path.)''


Abu Dawud and An-Nasa'i also recorded this Hadith. As for the Hadith that Imam Ahmad recorded, in which Anas said that the Messenger of Allah said to a man,


«&#1571;&#1614;&#1587;&#1618;&#1604;&#1616;&#1605;»


&#1602;&#1614;&#1575;&#1604;&#1614;: &#1573;&#1616;&#1606;&#1617;&#1616;&#1610; &#1571;&#1614;&#1580;&#1616;&#1583;&#1615;&#1606;&#1616;&#1610; &#1603;&#1614;&#1575;&#1585;&#1616;&#1607;&#1611;&#1575; &#1602;&#1614;&#1575;&#1604;&#1614;:


«&#1608;&#1614;&#1573;&#1616;&#1606;&#1618; &#1603;&#1615;&#1606;&#1618;&#1578;&#1614; &#1603;&#1614;&#1575;&#1585;&#1616;&#1607;&#1611;&#1575;»


("Embrace Islam.'' The man said, "I dislike it.'' The Prophet said, "Even if you dislike it.'')


First, this is an authentic Hadith, with only three narrators between Imam Ahmad and the Prophet . However, it is not relevant to the subject under discussion, for the Prophet did not force that man to become Muslim. The Prophet merely invited this man to become Muslim, and he replied that he does not find himself eager to become Muslim. The Prophet said to the man that even though he dislikes embracing Islam, he should still embrace it, `for Allah will grant you sincerity and true intent.'


----------



## Mr.Fitnah (Aug 5, 2009)

9:29. Fight against those who (1) believe not in Allâh, (2) nor in the Last Day, (3) nor forbid that which has been forbidden by Allâh and His Messenger (4) and those who acknowledge not the religion of truth (i.e. Islâm) among the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians), until they pay the Jizyah[] with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

The Order to fight People of the Scriptures until They give the Jizyah

Tafsir.com Tafsir Ibn Kathir
Paying Jizyah is a Sign of Kufr and Disgrace
Tafsir.com Tafsir Ibn Kathir
sounds like compulsion to me.


----------



## Mr.Fitnah (Aug 5, 2009)

Kalam said:


> Mr.Fitnah said:
> 
> 
> > "Kalam" everyone who has read  your post knows you disagree with establish traditional Islamic theory.
> ...



Please provide any scholary work that renouncs Ibn kathirs work as lies.


----------



## Mr.Fitnah (Aug 5, 2009)

Kalam said:


> Mr.Fitnah said:
> 
> 
> > 4:43. O you who believe! Approach not As Salât (the prayer) when you are in a drunken state
> ...



Quraan Transliteration
O you who believe! Approach not As Sal&#257;t (the prayer) when you are in a drunken state until you know (the meaning) of


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## Fatality (Aug 6, 2009)

Animal Cracker said:


> Islam (obviously) forbids intelligent muslims from posting here.



you mean there is such a thing?


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## Mr.Fitnah (Aug 6, 2009)

Kalam said:


> Mr.Fitnah said:
> 
> 
> > 4:43. O you who believe! Approach not As Salât (the prayer) when you are in a drunken state
> ...



Dont torture the Quran.

37 MAKING WRONG INTERPRETATION OF THE QURAN
Tafsir means informing and discovering. It is the process of informing and explaining. Tawil means pulling back or escaping. Tafsir  comes to mean giving a meaning. 

Tawil is selection of one of the meaning among many meanings. It is not permissible (Jaiz) to make Tafsir according to ones own opinion. Tafsir is performed according to the rules of transmission (Riwayat or Nakl). On the other hand, Tawil is done according to ones knowledge and capabilities. In one hadith, Rasulullah, peace be upon him, said, A person who interprets the Quran according to his own opinion is in clear error even if he is right. 

It is not correct to say such and such is the meaning of the speech (Kalam) of Allahu taala without investigating first whether that such and such is in any way commented by Rasulullah, peace be upon him, or by his companions or that whether it conforms to the interpretations 

(Tafsirs) of the previous scholars or to the methodology of the knowledge of interpretation, or without knowing the Arabic language that was spoken at the time of Rasulullah, peace be upon him, i.e., the Quraish dialect, or without thinking about reality (Haqiqat) and metaphoric (Majaz) aspects of it, or without being able to differentiate whether it is general, personal, concise (Mujmal), or detailed (Mufassal), and without investigating the reason of why that such and such verse (Ayat) was revealed, or whether it is Nasih or Mansuh. Tafsir means ones being able to understand from the sayings of Allahu taala what Allahu taala meant with that saying. 
ETHICS OF ISLAM


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## Mr.Fitnah (Aug 6, 2009)

Kalam said:


> Mr.Fitnah said:
> 
> 
> > "Kalam" everyone who has read  your post knows you disagree with establish traditional Islamic theory.
> ...




According to your sig link  website it is not Mu'tazilis

 By the end of the ninth century, Mu'tazilis were subjected to vehement attacks from the right (the traditionalists) and from the left (the atheists, deists, philosophers, non-Muslim thinkers, etc.).


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## Mr.Fitnah (Aug 7, 2009)

Many muslims like to say " Islam forbids the killing of innocent people"
Please provide Islamic scripture to prove unequivocally non muslims are innocent.


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## Mr.Fitnah (Aug 8, 2009)

It may, superficially, appear distasteful to copulate with a woman who is not a man's legal wife, but once Shariat makes something lawful, we have to accept it as lawful, whether it appeals to our taste, or not; and whether we know its underlying wisdom or not. It is necessary for a Muslim to be acquainted with the laws of Shariat, but it is not necessary for him to delve into each law in order to find the underlying wisdom of these laws because knowledge of the wisdom of some of the laws may be beyond his puny comprehension. Allah Ta'ala has said in the Holy Quran:&#8220;Wa maa ooteetum min al-ilm illaa qaleelan&#8221; which means, more or less, that, "You have been given a very small portion of knowledge&#8221;. Hence, if a person fails to comprehend the underlying wisdom of any law of Shariat, he cannot regard it as a fault of Shariat (Allah forbid), on the contrary, it is the fault of his own perception and lack of understanding, because no law of Shariat is contradictory to wisdom. 

Nevertheless, the wisdom underlying the permission granted by Shariat to copulate with a slave woman is as follows: The LEGAL possession that a Muslim receives over a slave woman from the &#8220;Ameerul-Mu'mineen&#8221;(the Islamic Head of State) gives him legal credence to have coition with the slave woman in his possession, just as the marriage ceremony gives him legal credence to have coition with his wife. In other words, this LEGAL POSSESSION is, in effect, a SUBSTITUTE of the MARRIAGE CEREMONY. A free woman cannot be 'possessed', bought or sold like other possessions; therefore Shariat instituted a 'marriage ceremony' in which affirmation and consent takes place, which gives a man the right to copulate with her. On the other hand, a slave girl can be possessed and even bought and sold, thus, this right of possession, substituting as a marriage ceremony, entitles the owner to copulate with her. A similar example can be found in the slaughtering of animals; that after a formal slaughtering process, in which the words,&#8220;Bismillahi Allahu Akbar&#8221; are recited, goats, cows, etc.; become &#8220;Halaal&#8221; and lawful for consumption, whereas fish becomes &#8220;Halaal&#8221; merely through 'possession' which substitutes for the slaughtering. 

In other words, just as legal possession of a fish that has been fished out of the water, makes it Halaal for human consumption without the initiation of a formal slaughtering process; similarly legal possession of a slave woman made her Halaal for the purpose of coition with her owner without the initiation of a formal marriage ceremony. 

In short, permission to have intercourse with a slave woman was not something barbaric or uncivilised; on the contrary, it was almost as good as a marriage ceremony. 

Ask-Imam.com > Beliefs and Practices (Aqeedah) > Question 14421 from United States 

If there is no Islamic leader of the state no permission is necessary


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## Sunni Man (Aug 9, 2009)

So what ????


----------



## Mr.Fitnah (Aug 10, 2009)

Sunni Man said:


> So what ????



I  was always against rape, thats what. Islam sanctifies it  and no the OT  does not.


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## gautama (Aug 10, 2009)

I am reading some of this convoluted Quaranic bullshit with esoteric names seemingly labelling every thought process from dreaming about boinking one's neighbor's wife, to perhaps an action that is delineated to include such basics as a particular bowel movement.

All this emanating from the pedophile Mohahahahamed, may his name be forgotten as soon as possible, who "married" a six year old Ayesha, and had the moral strength to wait until legally raping her at age 9. I understand that it might have been understandable because Ayesha had great tits and a magnificent ass.

As to the Quaranic BULLSHIT that is inundating the West by some of its spokesmen.....ALL that is covered by "TAQIYAH". Believe it or not, the ACTUAL FACT IS: the Term "TAQIYAH" is an Islamic term for "BULLSHIT" to heap on the infidels to blind them from the true goal of Islam. THE TRUE GOAL OF ISLAM being: to transform the World into the World of Islam by SWORD or BUILLSHIT.

Presently, Islam is PRIMARILY controlled by the Whackjobs called the Wahhabis and the Nutjobs who are the Theological Honchos of Iran. Both of these factions practice IRREFUTABLE ISLAMOFASCIST HORROR on anybody that disagrees with them and/or they can lay their hands on.

 Especially Israel which is perhaps 1/10,000 the combined area of these Islamofascist Swine. The Israel area which to some extent has been populated by the human garbage of Islamic countries bordering Israel. I am referring to those Muslim dregs that lived in semi-concentration camps in the Muslim countries bordering Israel and have been deliberately funnelled into Israel as a "poison pill" to cause decades, perhaps a century of turmoil. All that to divert attention from the ABYSMAL  RESULTS  of tyrannical and despotic rule of the Islamic TYRANTS and Whackjob mullahs.

That just about summarzes SOME of the BULLSHIT that is being spewed about.

BTW, Christianity had, and might have its moments in the future also. It certainly had its BLOODTHIRSTY PAST.

Religion has that aspect of HORROR to it......besides the positive aspects of providing HOPE to those who are desperately in need of it.

I leave the PHILOSOPHICAL QUESTION of which is better for Mankind: A world with or without the present religions of Heaven, Hell and Divinity CRAP.....UP TO YOU.

I know this is an impossible dream.

Because the vested interests in the Religions of the World are too entrenched.

But IMO, all this convoluted Religious CRAPPOLA should be replaced with:

"Do unto others as you would have them do unto you".

And, if you are not masochistic freaks everything will be honkey-dorey.


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## Sunni Man (Aug 10, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> > So what ????
> ...


Wrong as usual Mr. Fitnuts

The Old Testament talks about Abraham, Jacob, King David, King Soloman, and others having numerous "concubines".

Most were slave women who were forced into being concubines.


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## Sunni Man (Aug 10, 2009)

CuriousColin said:


> And gang banging is apparently legal.



I didn't know that?

Please provide evidence

Thank You


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## Sunni Man (Aug 10, 2009)

CuriousColin said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> > CuriousColin said:
> ...


In these cases the woman was out alone with a man/men who are not a blood relative.

Thus she has broken the law.

The man/men are also convicted of rape and sent to prison.


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## mystic (Aug 10, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> Islam forbids the killing of innocent people"
> Please provide scripture to proves unequivocally non muslims are innocent
> Shirk is worse than Killing



I'm not Muslim, but it wasn't a very hard challenge. All I had to do is google. Try it sometime.

_The Quranic verses on this are very clear. God repeats, "do not aggress", multiple times. Only if attacked, is one permitted to fight back. If the other party refrains from aggression and offers one peace, we are told to stop fighting.

Rules of War*

[2:190] You may fight in the cause of GOD against those who attack you, but do not aggress. GOD does not love the aggressors. 
[2:191] You may kill those who wage war against you, and you may evict them whence they evicted you. Oppression is worse than murder. Do not fight them at the Sacred Masjid, unless they attack you therein. If they attack you, you may kill them. This is the just retribution for those disbelievers.
[2:192] If they refrain, then GOD is Forgiver, Most Merciful.
[2:193] You may also fight them to eliminate oppression, and to worship GOD freely. If they refrain, you shall not aggress; aggression is permitted only against the aggressors.

*2:190 All fighting is regulated by the basic rule in 60:8-9. Fighting is allowed strictly in self-defense, while aggression and oppression are strongly condemned throughout the Quran.

[5:87] O you who believe, do not prohibit good things that are made lawful by GOD, and do not aggress; GOD dislikes the aggressors.

[8:61] If they resort to peace, so shall you, and put your trust in GOD. He is the Hearer, the Omniscient.

[4:90] ... if they leave you alone, refrain from fighting you, and offer you peace, then GOD gives you no excuse to fight them.


The Quran also reminds the submitters (muslims in Arabic) that they should not be provoked by past animosity into committing acts of aggression (5:2). Additionally, God insists that submitters (muslims) must be absolutely sure before striking in the cause of God (4:94). Anyone who offers one peace, cannot be attacked.

[4:94] O you who believe, if you strike in the cause of GOD, you shall be absolutely sure. Do not say to one who offers you peace, "You are not a believer," seeking the spoils of this world. For GOD possesses infinite spoils. Remember that you used to be like them, and GOD blessed you. Therefore, you shall be absolutely sure (before you strike). GOD is fully Cognizant of everything you do._


So you see, Mr. Fitnah, if the Quran states that Muslims cannot aggress against anyone who is not currently attacking them, that includes by definition all non-Muslims. It even states, "Remember that you used to be like them," an obvious reference to non-Muslims. The guidelines for warfare includes the totality of the human race. If not, it would say something like, _"You may fight in the cause of GOD against those who attack you, but do not aggress. Except if they're not Muslim, then go ahead and aggress."_


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## JenT (Aug 10, 2009)

mystic said:


> Mr.Fitnah said:
> 
> 
> > Islam forbids the killing of innocent people"
> ...



Right, and as is shown over and over again, "aggression" by another country is when we reject the ways of allah. If we deny access to our children, that's being disobedient. 

The Quran swings back and forth because Muhammad swung back and forth depending on whether he was being accepted or not. Same with Islam.

The only "peace" of Islam is when the world is Islam, and all unbelievers are forced to dress in a humiliating way so they are easily identified, and treated like whipping posts. 

But if we open our arms and embrace Islam, we are to be treated respectfully as Muslims, but if we leave the faith, we are apostate and should be killed.

Pass <---Pardon my aggression.


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## Sunni Man (Aug 10, 2009)

Your post is a total lie JenTand you know it.

Islam is a peaceful religion and only goes to war when attacked.


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## Mr.Fitnah (Aug 10, 2009)

Sunni Man said:


> Your post is a total lie JenTand you know it.
> 
> Islam is a peaceful religion and only goes to war when attacked.


Her post is correct  further more ,disbelief is an act  that is fitnah , something that must be destroyed and act of aggression

PWHCE Middle East Project: Definition: Shirk, Sharaka, Mushrik
Mushrikin 
A mushrik (plural mushrikin or mushrikeen) is a polytheist - one who shares the exclusive attributes of Allah with those other than Allah.  
 Because Islam is a monotheistic religion, whose 'formula of faith' (shahada) is "There is no God but Allah and Muhammad is his Messenger", mushrik is almost a synonym for infidel (kaffir).  
 Most Sunni Muslims through the ages have been cautious about condemning their fellow Muslims for shirk. A type of action or behaviour may abstractly be described as shirk, but a traditional Muslim who calls another Muslim a mushrik is pre-empting Allah's judgement and may therefore consider himself to be guilty of shirk. (An exception may apply when a highly qualified scholar passes judgement in a particularly egregious case). However, some radical scholars, particularly those who have drawn upon the legacy of Ibn Taymiyya, have become more willing to accuse fellow Muslims of shirk. 

*A mushrik (plural mushrikin or mushrikeen) is a polytheist they are Az-Zâlimûn* .These are* the names of those who create the greatest crimes* 

AL-ZULM (OPPRESSION) 
The Meaning of Al-Zulm in Arabic: 
The word Al-Zulm (oppression) is opposite to the word Al-A'del (justice) and is derived linguistically from the word Zalama which means the following: 
*Injustice*, Darkness, *Aggression*,* Doing the Inappropriate* and Preventing a right etc.


The Definition of Al-Zulm or Oppression In Juristic Terminology: Al-I'tidaa Ala Al-Huqouq Bedoun Wajih Shar'ie - *Aggression against Rights without a Divine Permit. *

Fighting the Jews and Christians is legislated because They are Idolators and Disbelievers 


Allah the Exalted encourages the believers to fight the polytheists, disbelieving Jews and Christians, who uttered this terrible statement and utter lies against Allah, the Exalted. As for the Jews, they claimed that `Uzayr was the son of God, Allah is free of what they attribute to Him. As for the misguidance of Christians over `Isa, it is obvious. This is why Allah declared both groups to be liars,

Tafsir.com Tafsir Ibn Kathir... 

1. Polytheism - Al-Shirk: Allah (swt) says: "Polytheism or Al-Shirk is great oppression" [EMQ 31:13] 
3:13. And (remember) when Luqmân said to his son when he was advising him: "O my son! Join not in worship others with Allâh. Verily! Joining others in worship with Allâh is a great Zûlm (wrong) indeed

2. Disbelief - Al-Kufr: Allah (swt) says:The Disbelievers are Oppressors" [EMQ 2:254] 

2:254. O you who believe! Spend of that with which We have provided for you, before a Day comes when there will be no bargaining, nor friendship, nor intercession. *And it is the disbelievers who are the Zâlimûn* (wrong-doers, etc.).
He (swt) also says: "..Who does more* oppression, than he who disbelieves in Allah*.." [EMQ 6:21] 

21.* And who does more wrong than he who invents a lie against Allâh or rejects His Ayât* (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, revelations, etc.)? Verily, the Zâlimûn (polytheists and wrong doers, etc.) shall never be successful.

2:190.  
And fight in the Way of Allâh[] those who fight you, but transgress not the limits. Truly, Allâh likes not the transgressors. [This Verse is the first one that was revealed in connection with Jihâd, but it was supplemented by another (V.9:36)]. 

2:191.  
And kill them wherever you find them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out. And Al-Fitnah[] is worse than killing. And fight not with them at Al-Masjid-al-Harâm (the sanctuary at Makkah),[] unless they (first) fight you there. But if they attack you, then kill them. Such is the recompense of the disbelievers. 
2:192.  
But if they cease, then Allâh is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful. 
2:193.  
And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allâh) and (all and every kind of) worship is for Allâh (Alone).[] But if they cease, let there be* no transgression except against Az-Zâlimûn* (the polytheists, and wrong-doers, etc.)  
The Noble Quran : Surat 2

*let there be no transgression except against Az-Zâlimûn 
let there be no transgression except against Az-Zâlimûn 
let there be no transgression except against Az-Zâlimûn 
let there be no transgression except against Az-Zâlimûn*


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## Mr.Fitnah (Aug 10, 2009)

mystic said:


> Yak yak yak


See above post # 467


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## Sunni Man (Aug 10, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> > Your post is a total lie JenTand you know it.
> ...


Save it Mr. Fitnuts aka:  Mr. Cut & Paste

Your post is a mixed up mess and that doesn't addrees the subject as in an honest and  logical manner.

To people who know very little about Islamic theology and the Quran. You may sound like a some kind of expert to gulible people.

But to a person like me who is a muslim and bases my life on the Quran.

Your posts are basically nonsense and lies.


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## Mr.Fitnah (Aug 10, 2009)

I willing to clarify any information anyone has including you.
Do you deny  the Quran states
8:39

And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and polytheism: i.e. worshipping others besides Allâh) and the religion (worship) will all be for Allâh Alone [in the whole of the world[]]. But if they cease (worshipping others besides Allâh), then certainly, Allâh is All-Seer of what they do 

and 

2:193.  
And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allâh) and (all and every kind of) worship is for Allâh (Alone).[] But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against Az-Zâlimûn (the polytheists, and wrong-doers, etc193

The Noble Quran

Tafsir.com Tafsir Ibn Kathir

Tafsir.com Tafsir Ibn Kathir

Tafsir.com Tafsir Ibn Kathir


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## Sunni Man (Aug 10, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> I willing to clarify any information anyone has including you.
> Do you deny  the Quran states
> 8:39
> 
> ...


Totally out of context as per your usual postings.


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## Mr.Fitnah (Aug 10, 2009)

They stand freely  and are in " current " tense.


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## Mr.Fitnah (Aug 10, 2009)

Here is th elarger context.

33:21. Indeed in the Messenger of Allâh (Muhammad ) you have a good example to follow for him who hopes in (the Meeting with) Allâh and the Last Day and remembers Allâh much. 


'Abdullah bin 'Umar, may Allah be pleased with them, reported: 
Allah's Messenger said: I have been commanded to fight against people till they testify that there is no god but Allah, and that Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah, perform the Prayer, and pay Zakah. If they do that, their blood and property are guaranteed protection on my behalf except when justified by law, and their affairs rest with Allah. 
Display


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## Sunni Man (Aug 10, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> They stand freely  and are in " current " tense.



You make up some silly terms to try and sound like you are an Islamic and Quranic expert.

Give it a rest Dude

Your twisted and out of context posts are nothing but a laugh  

.


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## Mr.Fitnah (Aug 10, 2009)

Thanks,

Noble Qur&#8217;an 2:190 Footnote: &#8220;Jihad is holy fighting in Allah&#8217;s Cause with full force of numbers and weaponry. It is given the utmost importance in Islam and is one of its pillars. By Jihad Islam is established, Allah&#8217;s Word is made superior (which means only Allah has the right to be worshiped), and Islam is propagated. By abandoning Jihad Islam is destroyed and Muslims fall into an inferior position; their honor is lost, their lands are stolen, their rule and authority vanish. Jihad is an obligatory duty in Islam on every Muslim. He who tries to escape from this duty, or does not fulfill this duty, dies as a hypocrite.&#8221;


The passage itself can be found in two places. It is on page 54 ( in my copy)of the Noble Qur&#8217;an 
translation by Muhammad Khan and distributed by &#8220;King Fahd Complex for the Printing of the Holy Qur&#8217;an&#8212;The Custodian of the Two Holy Mosques. It is a footnote to Qur&#8217;an 2.190 and is designed to explain Jihad according to Allah as this is the first time the word is used. 


And it can be found on page 580 of the Islamic University of Medina&#8217;s translation of Sahih al-Bukhari&#8217;s Hadith. There it opens Bukhari&#8217;s Book of Jihad. 


 In both cases, the Islamic scholars are condensing Allah&#8217;s and Muhammad&#8217;s teachings on Jihad to a single paragraph.


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## JenT (Aug 10, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> > Your post is a total lie JenTand you know it.
> ...



Sunni I know there are plenty of American muslims that want nothing but peace. I know a few very nice Muslims, in fact, I don't know a single Muslim that isn't kind. But what the religion teaches is FAR from peaceful, it's brutal and meant to dominate the world. 

And as Andrew McCarthy, lead prosecutor of the blind sheik pointed out, moderate peace-loving Muslims, if asked, will point at radical Imams and say they are the ones that have the authority to proclaim Jihad and order them to fight and they will. 

So even as our trembling government is estimating the damage that 10 or 20% of millions of Muslims might do (whatever estimate they throw out there as percentage of "radical" muslims) they still don't factor in what will happen if the imams mobilize the "peaceful" Muslims.


----------



## Sunni Man (Aug 10, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> Thanks,
> 
> Noble Quran 2:190 Footnote: Jihad is holy fighting in Allahs Cause with full force of numbers and weaponry. It is given the utmost importance in Islam and is one of its pillars. By Jihad Islam is established, Allahs Word is made superior (which means only Allah has the right to be worshiped), and Islam is propagated. By abandoning Jihad Islam is destroyed and Muslims fall into an inferior position; their honor is lost, their lands are stolen, their rule and authority vanish. Jihad is an obligatory duty in Islam on every Muslim. He who tries to escape from this duty, or does not fulfill this duty, dies as a hypocrite.
> 
> ...


Good work with more cut & paste.


----------



## JenT (Aug 10, 2009)

I'd say that one page is worth printing and keeping. 

I randomly chose one of the terms:

The Definition of Al-Zulm or Oppression in Juristic Terminology:

Al-Itidaa Ala Al=Huquoq Bedoun Wajih Sharie  Aggression against Rights without a Divine Permit.

Examples of Oppression: Sexual relationship between a man and a woman is no different to that between a husband and wife except that the former is Safaah i.e. without a marriage contract meaning that theirs is no divine permit and it is therefore aggression as far as Islam is concerned, whereas the latter is Nikkah i.e. relationship with a marriage contract and has a divine permit and is therefore submission to  Allah as far as Islam is concerned..

http://www.islamic-truth.co.uk/islamicstore/pdf_files/zulm_book.pdf page 5

I think San Francisco bath houses are going to be in BIG trouble, apparently all that is aggression


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## Kalam (Aug 10, 2009)

JenT said:


> I'd say that one page is worth printing and keeping.
> 
> I randomly chose one of the terms:
> 
> ...



Because interpretations of the Qur'an and Qur'anic concepts are, like, _totally_ uniform across the entire Islamic religion, right, jent? One person's opinion can _easily_ be used to determine what 1.5 billion others believe, eh?


----------



## Kalam (Aug 10, 2009)

JenT said:


> But what the religion teaches is FAR from peaceful, it's brutal and meant to dominate the world.


I'm afraid you're confused. What you're describing is this:

http://www.usmessageboard.com/religion-and-ethics/84271-gods-law-in-new-testament-moral-judgments.html



JenT said:


> And as Andrew McCarthy, lead prosecutor of the blind sheik pointed out, moderate peace-loving Muslims, if asked, will point at radical Imams and say they are the ones that have the authority to proclaim Jihad and order them to fight and they will.


Islam isn't hierarchical, honey. Like most of what you have to say, that's pure bullshit.


----------



## JenT (Aug 10, 2009)

Kalam said:


> JenT said:
> 
> 
> > I'd say that one page is worth printing and keeping.
> ...



yeah that's probably why everyone must read it in Arabic whether they understand it or not

(on the side - Kalam should I assume you're a woman from your avatar?)


----------



## Kalam (Aug 10, 2009)

JenT said:


> yeah that's probably why everyone must read it in Arabic whether they understand it or not


Really?



JenT said:


> (on the side - Kalam should I assume you're a woman from your avatar?)


No, I'm a man.


----------



## JenT (Aug 10, 2009)

Kalam said:


> JenT said:
> 
> 
> > But what the religion teaches is FAR from peaceful, it's brutal and meant to dominate the world.
> ...



lol Kalam, I heard McCarthy say it myself, I probably have a copy of it somewhere on my desktop but it's media player


----------



## Kalam (Aug 10, 2009)

JenT said:


> lol Kalam, I heard McCarthy say it myself, I probably have a copy of it somewhere on my desktop but it's media player



That's fantastic, but I never made a claim regarding what he did or didn't say. My point had to do with the veracity of the statement you attributed to him.


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## gautama (Aug 11, 2009)

None of you religious dogma masturbaters doing your subjective and convoluted fantasy parsing are able to challenge a single FACT I presented (on Page 31).....nor dispute my main thesis about the Golden Rule.

You jerks just keep yapping away massaging the trivialities of dogmas that have TWO sided facts supporting each one of your positions in each of your Ultimate sources. To wit, BOTH the Bible and the Quran has verbiage that supports each one of your disparate positions. 

Example in the Quran: Pedphilia is supposedly not countenanced. Yet Mohahahahahamed rapes a nine  year old Ayesha with the convenient Islamic rule of sanctifying pedophilia by legalizing it thru "marriage".

Depending on which page you turn to in the Bible, God is the most wonderful chap you can imagine .... on the other hand he is a spiteful, petty, vengeful, malevoent asshole that is beyond human contemplation. Each one of us know scores of human beings more benign and forgiving than that scumbag.


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## JenT (Aug 11, 2009)

gautama said:


> None of you religious dogma masturbaters doing your subjective and convoluted fantasy parsing are able to challenge a single FACT I presented (on Page 31).....nor dispute my main thesis about the Golden Rule.
> 
> You jerks just keep yapping away massaging the trivialities of dogmas that have TWO sided facts supporting each one of your positions in each of your Ultimate sources. To wit, BOTH the Bible and the Quran has verbiage that supports each one of your disparate positions.
> 
> ...



All you said about Christianity on page 31 was it was bloodthirsty...but when you think of that, the message of the Cross is all about blood, the precious blood of Christ that covers the sins of all who will receive it, but somehow I don't think that's what you meant.

as for your last paragraph above, about how we all know scores of humans more forgiving than Him...the thing is, I don't know anyone that would voluntarily be tortured and die for me, do you?

I don't know any gods that would come down to earth in the flesh to do that, do you?

You said you know other humans that are more forgiving. What would you do if you were God? Tell all us humans not to worry about our sins, just haul them up to heaven with us? (since so many of us refuse to allow Christ to cover them). Is that what you call forgiving? Then heaven would be just as messed up as this planet. 

Think about if you were God, what we must sound like to Him. On the one hand we yell at Him for allowing all the evil that man does in the world, on the other hand we yell at Him because He has said He will not allow all that uncovered sin to pollute heaven as much as it pollutes this planet.

So what would you do, gautama? What solution do you have that is better than coming to the planet and paying for all our sins yourself for anyone willing to receive the sacrifice? Becoming man and taking on the full penalty that those that want to can come to you...what more do you want from God than what He went through on the cross?


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## Mr.Fitnah (Aug 11, 2009)

Kalam said:


> JenT said:
> 
> 
> > But what the religion teaches is FAR from peaceful, it's brutal and meant to dominate the world.
> ...



Is it a condition of jihaad that there be a leader?
Is it a condition of jihaad that there be a leader (imaam, in the sense of a head of state) , whether that jihaad is defensive or offensive? Imaam Abd al-Rahmaan ibn Hasan (may Allaah have mercy on him) said that no scholar mentioned this as a precondition; do you know of any scholar who did describe this as a condition for jihaad? 

Praise be to Allaah. 

It is not a condition of jihaad that there be a leader, whether that jihaad is defensive or offensive. With regard to defence, this is very clear, because if the enemy attacks a land, everyone who is able is obliged to defend it, even the women who are also obliged to fight. This was stated by the fuqahaa, because this is an individual obligation; the role of the leader is to organize. If there is an leader, all well and good; if there is no leader, the Muslims are still obliged to fight. 

Shaykh Abd-Allaah al-Ghunaymaan


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## mystic (Aug 11, 2009)

um, Jen....forgive me but I don't understand most of what you say. When I responded to the discussion, it was on topic and I brought proof. You, however, did not. Your logic and sentence structure are very confusing. You'll have to tighten up and bring a coherent rebuttal if you want me to respond in a serious way. For now, if you don't mind, I'll just have some fun with you.



JenT said:


> Right, and as is shown over and over again, "aggression" by another country is when we reject the ways of allah. If we deny access to our children, that's being disobedient.



What? You shot who in the what now?



JenT said:


> The Quran swings back and forth because Muhammad swung back and forth depending on whether he was being accepted or not. Same with Islam.



I wish they would stop swinging, it's making me dizzy. Must be making you dizzy, too.



JenT said:


> The only "peace" of Islam is when the world is Islam, and all unbelievers are forced to dress in a humiliating way so they are easily identified, and treated like whipping posts.



I know, I know...it's a shame how that ex of yours treated you. I told you not to mutah with him, but you wouldn't listen.



JenT said:


> But if we open our arms and embrace Islam, we are to be treated respectfully as Muslims, but if we leave the faith, we are apostate and should be killed.



Oh shit! Someone should tell that to all those how-I-left-Islam-and-became-Christian-people! Before it's too late!!



JenT said:


> Pass <---Pardon my aggression.



You were being agressive?


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## mystic (Aug 11, 2009)

psst..By the way, I noticed Mr. Fitnah didn't respond to my post. I don't think he's very good loser. 

You have to be graceful and sportsman-like, Mr. Fitnah.


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## gautama (Aug 11, 2009)

Jen T,

You're playing games with words. You are not addressing my points and/or questions. You are simply deflecting them. You even ADMIT you are deflecting them.....and that's what you do.

Let me be specific.

In your first paragraph you do NOT address the fact that Christianity has a horrendously violent and bloodthirst history. Instead you deflect that IRREFUTABLE History with a fantasy, a fairy tale where you create a subjective unprovable fantasy of a SON of GOD and imbue him with all sorts of stories of his goodness and sacrifice for humanity. You offer his fantasy resume as PROOF of his wonderfulness and his connection to a God of your subjective imagination (shared by the many of your ilk).

Then you go on and on about how many would do what your imaginary fantasy of this imaginary dude imbued with his powers would do. Both sonny and daddy.


You cannot dispute that in your own Bible ( or Quran) for practically every concept of good and/or evil two or more solutions are given that are diametrically oppsite in solving the question, for example: love your fellow man, forgive the hell out of him, on the one hand. And kill the asshole if he happens to  be or do thisa or thata.

As to what I would do if I were God ? I am too insignificant. IMO, I, and ALL of humanity put together are too deficient to tackle all the Micro and Magna issues of the Universe. Just the consideration of SOME of the  minute, nanogramic (?) workings of the Universe blanks out my brain . Fortunately I don't have to even contemplate this silly suggestion with any degree of seriousness.

But one thing I know I tried to do if I had the ultimate power. Rightly, or wrongly, I'd try to make EVERYONE HAPPY.....CONTINUOUSLY..... as much as possible. 

And, for starters, I'd remake human beings so that they would practice the Golden Rule:

Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.

As to my expanded thoughts on this subject: Check out my analysis in this same section: "Religion and Ethics". on Page 2, I believe. The title of my thoughts on this matter is: "MY CREATOR: The Sum Total of the Laws of the Universe."

BTW, I give you credit for trying to tackle my challenge. The other religious masturbaters can't handle it....and they know that.


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## mystic (Aug 11, 2009)

gautama said:


> Jen T,
> 
> BTW, I give you credit for trying to tackle my challenge. The other religious masturbaters can't handle it....and they know that.



No one is responding because your posts have nothing to do with the thread...

Tackle your challenge?....Dude, go start your own thread. It will make you very happy, I promise.


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## Mr.Fitnah (Aug 11, 2009)

mystic said:


> psst..By the way, I noticed Mr. Fitnah didn't respond to my post. I don't think he's very good loser.
> 
> You have to be graceful and sportsman-like, Mr. Fitnah.


http://www.usmessageboard.com/1411968-post466.html


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## gautama (Aug 11, 2009)

mystic said:


> gautama said:
> 
> 
> > Jen T,
> ...



Mystic,

You're too tunnel-visioned in your MYSTICISM, Mystic, to realize that my comments have EVERYTHING to do with this thread since they tackle the NONSENSE you folks are wallowing in.

My comments have to to do with Islam and the Christian Bible. I have referred to specific aspects of Islam and the Bible. I have shown how NONSENSICAL your USELESS ramblings are. And yet, you state I am not responding to the comments in the thread ?

Try to welcome REALITY into your "mystical" and/or phantasmagorical lives.

IOW, GET REAL !!!


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## Rubber Hoser (Aug 11, 2009)

Islam forbids: rational thinking.


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## mystic (Aug 11, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> mystic said:
> 
> 
> > psst..By the way, I noticed Mr. Fitnah didn't respond to my post. I don't think he's very good loser.
> ...




Oo...I stand corrected. That made me laugh, actually, so thank you. But your weak response doesn't change the fact that you're a sore loser. 



> Mystic,
> 
> You're too tunnel-visioned in your MYSTICISM, Mystic, to realize that my comments have EVERYTHING to do with this thread since they tackle the NONSENSE you folks are wallowing in.
> 
> ...



Sorry, dear...what makes you think that I'm religious? Mysticism does not _necessarily_ run parallel with religion. All religion has dogma. 

Reality says this thread was started to address a specific question and you are hijacking it. 

But you know, reality sucks.


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## Mr.Fitnah (Aug 11, 2009)

mystic said:


> Mr.Fitnah said:
> 
> 
> > mystic said:
> ...


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## mystic (Aug 11, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> Thanks, keep studying.



Always. 

Do me a favor and answer my question to you in Gunny's religion thread. I'd appreciate it.


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## Mr.Fitnah (Aug 11, 2009)

mystic said:


> Mr.Fitnah said:
> 
> 
> > Thanks, keep studying.
> ...


First, you have no muslim friends who are believers.
33:36.  
It is not for a believer, man or woman, when Allâh and His Messenger have decreed a matter that they should have any option in their decision. And whoever disobeys Allâh and His Messenger, he has indeed strayed in a plain error. 

The Prohibition of Being Loyal Friends with Disbelievers


This Ayah discourages and forbids taking the enemies of Islam and its people, such as the People of the Book and the polytheists, as friends. These disbelievers mock the most important acts that any person could ever perform, the honorable, pure acts of Islam which include all types of good for this life and the Hereafter. They mock such acts and make them the subject of jest and play, because this is what these acts represent in their misguided minds and cold hearts. Allah said;
Tafsir.com Tafsir Ibn Kathir

The Prohibition of Supporting the Disbelievers


Allah prohibited His believing servants from becoming supporters of the disbelievers, or to take them as comrades with whom they develop friendships, rather than the believers. Allah warned against such behavior when He said,



Tafsir.com Tafsir Ibn Kathir


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## Mr.Fitnah (Aug 11, 2009)

In general, I  do not address New or Old testament scripture .

I under took my study of Islam shortly after 911 when I heard Islam had been hijacked and twisted, I sought details  since none was forthcoming.
 I wanted to defend muslims  from bigots who  had said things about Islam .
After reading the Quran seeking guidance understanding the order of revelation  reading the available sunna( the example of the "prophet") including the al sira ( the earliest history of mohammad) and various tafsir( exiguous or explanation of the Quran) .

I have since then  sought proof I am wrong  that   911 looked exactly like Islam is to be practiced .
There are some sects who are less literal in their interpretation,  they are limited in influence and in membership and are  for all intents irreverent.
 I am not  the target of their argument for them being real Islam, they must convince the misunderstanders of Islam .
I have a question  for them as they go to educate  them, 

Why do the misunderstanders always misunderstand in exactly the same way?

As for proof it requires something beyond name calling, claims of bigotry,  your taking the Quran out of context , you have to  read Arabic to understand the Quran .etc etc.

It must be as clear and unequivocal as the proof that disbelief is not a crime , injustice against allah  , and an act of aggression, oppression and a temptation  against muslims.


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## Mr.Fitnah (Aug 11, 2009)

As for the tattoo, it is a conversation starter, It makes muslims eyes go like saucers , I have been able to encourage many people to study Islam do to the ink.


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## Sunni Man (Aug 11, 2009)

tattoo???


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## Mr.Fitnah (Aug 11, 2009)

Sunni Man said:


> tattoo???


The plane --- the plane!


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## Sunni Man (Aug 11, 2009)

I wish I hadn't ask


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## Kalam (Aug 11, 2009)

Sunni Man said:


> I wish I hadn't ask



He got a "kafir" tattoo. 

I laugh at 'tards who think that wearing "kafir" shirts makes them badass and edgy; a tattoo is a whole new level of lameness.


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## Fatality (Aug 12, 2009)

Girl Says Family Wants To Kill Her For Being Christian - News Story - WFTV Orlando

islam forbids



> ORLANDO, Fla. -- An Ohio girl ran away to Orlando because she said her family threatened to kill her for converting to Christianity. Rifqa Bary, 17, said she was threatened by her family because she converted from Islam to Christianity.
> 
> "What did your father say to you?" WFTV reporter Mary Nguyen asked.
> 
> "He said he would kill me!" replied Bary.





> Rifqa Bary pleaded with a DCF case worker to let her stay with Pastor Blake Lorenz from the Global Revolution Church. The 17-year-old girl from Ohio claims her father has threatened to kill her because she has converted to Christianity and rejected her family's Muslim faith.
> 
> "They have to kill me, because I'm a Christian, it's an honor. If they love me more than God then they have to kill me," she said.
> 
> Rifqa Bary said she needed to get away from her family. So she hitched-hiked then got on a bus to Orlando.



God forbid they get their dirty hands on her.


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## Rubber Hoser (Aug 12, 2009)

Islam forbids anyone to think for themselves. You're either a muslim or an infidel who has a choice to either be killed or converted to islam. Kalam is a good example, all he does is quote from the koran, he can't think for himself.


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## Mr.Fitnah (Aug 12, 2009)

Rubber Hoser said:


> Islam forbids anyone to think for themselves. You're either a muslim or an infidel who has a choice to either be killed or converted to islam. Kalam is a good example, all he does is quote from the koran, he can't think for himself.


 Actually "kalam"  thinks for himself a great deal , far more than Islam would recommend ,he is not a very good muslim.


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## Rubber Hoser (Aug 12, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> Rubber Hoser said:
> 
> 
> > Islam forbids anyone to think for themselves. You're either a muslim or an infidel who has a choice to either be killed or converted to islam. Kalam is a good example, all he does is quote from the koran, he can't think for himself.
> ...



So you're a better muslim cuz you think for yourself less or not at all?


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## amrchaos (Aug 12, 2009)

OK--I stand corrected.

Christian Fundementalism is not the greatest danger to the world.  It is just one of many!!


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## mystic (Aug 12, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> First, you have no muslim friends who are believers.
> 33:36.
> It is not for a believer, man or woman, when Allâh and His Messenger have decreed a matter that they should have any option in their decision. And whoever disobeys Allâh and His Messenger, he has indeed strayed in a plain error.
> 
> ...




First off, I thank you for taking the time to explain your position to me even though I'm sure you've been obliged to explain many times before. I have studied Islam as well and I have to tell you, I don't put much stock in most hadith (or for that matter, many imams explanations). This is for the reason that according to Islam, God has promised protection to the Quran from being changed, but of course, there is no such protection for hadith. So I tend to disregard hadith, especially when it seems to contradict the teachings of the Quran. Islam also says that there is no need for an intermmediary between the supplicant and God. I tend to make my own understanding of Quran. Towards that end, I'm going to quote directly from Quran to justify my position. 
In regards to your statement that muslims are not allowed to take non-muslims as friends...I'm sure you do realize that muslim men can marry Christian and Jewish women. That would be a difficult task if they were not allowed to be friends. The Quran says this about friendship with non-muslims:


[60:8] GOD does not enjoin you from befriending those who do not fight you because of religion, and do not evict you from your homes. *You may befriend them and be equitable towards them*. GOD loves the equitable. 

I think the most quoted and misunderstood verse is this:

[5:51] O you who believe, do not take Jews and Christians as allies; these are allies of one another. Those among you who ally themselves with these belong with them. GOD does not guide the transgressors. 

The Arabic word for allies/friends used in this verse is "Awliyaa".

"Waliy" which is the singular of "Awliyaa" means "Guardian" as your parents were your guardians when you were a kid. It's saying don't take people of other religions as guardians or protectors.

Here's a few more for you:

and do not let the hatred of a people prevent you from being just. (Quran 5:8)

If it had been your Lords will, they would all have believed  all of who are on earth!  Will you then compel humankind, against their will, to believe? (Quran 10:99)

Here is just one hadith:


Beware!  Whoever is cruel and hard on a non-Muslim minority, curtails their rights, burdens them with more than they can bear, or takes anything from them against their free will; I (Prophet Muhammad) will complain against the person on the Day of Judgment. (Abu Dawud)

I will answer your other post tomorrow, thank you for being patient.


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## Mr.Fitnah (Aug 12, 2009)

Rubber Hoser said:


> Mr.Fitnah said:
> 
> 
> > Rubber Hoser said:
> ...


I'm not a muslim at all moron.


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## Mr.Fitnah (Aug 12, 2009)

mystic said:


> Mr.Fitnah said:
> 
> 
> > First, you have no muslim friends who are believers.
> ...



37 MAKING WRONG INTERPRETATION OF THE QURAN
Tafsir means informing and discovering. It is the process of informing and explaining. Tawil means pulling back or escaping. Tafsir  comes to mean giving a meaning. 

Tawil is selection of one of the meaning among many meanings. It is not permissible (Jaiz) to make Tafsir according to ones own opinion. Tafsir is performed according to the rules of transmission (Riwayat or Nakl). On the other hand, Tawil is done according to ones knowledge and capabilities. In one hadith, Rasulullah, peace be upon him, said, A person who interprets the Quran according to his own opinion is in clear error even if he is right. 

It is not correct to say such and such is the meaning of the speech (Kalam) of Allahu taala without investigating first whether that such and such is in any way commented by Rasulullah, peace be upon him, or by his companions or that whether it conforms to the interpretations 

(Tafsirs) of the previous scholars or to the methodology of the knowledge of interpretation, or without knowing the Arabic language that was spoken at the time of Rasulullah, peace be upon him, i.e., the Quraish dialect, or without thinking about reality (Haqiqat) and metaphoric (Majaz) aspects of it, or without being able to differentiate whether it is general, personal, concise (Mujmal), or detailed (Mufassal), and without investigating the reason of why that such and such verse (Ayat) was revealed, or whether it is Nasih or Mansuh. Tafsir means ones being able to understand from the sayings of Allahu taala what Allahu taala meant with that saying. 
ETHICS OF ISLAM


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## Rubber Hoser (Aug 12, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> Rubber Hoser said:
> 
> 
> > Mr.Fitnah said:
> ...



You sure are trying hard to pretend to be one. 
I bet you love allah.


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## Mr.Fitnah (Aug 12, 2009)

mystic said:


> [60:8] GOD does not enjoin you from befriending those who do not fight you because of religion, and do not evict you from your homes. *You may befriend them and be equitable towards them*. GOD loves the equitable.
> 
> I think the most quoted and misunderstood verse is this:
> 
> [5:51] O you who believe, do not take Jews and Christians as allies; these are allies of one another. Those among you who ally themselves with these belong with them. GOD does not guide the transgressors.


Get a better quran.
60:8. Allâh does not forbid you to deal justly and kindly with those who fought not against you on account of religion and did not drive you out of your homes. Verily, Allâh loves those who deal with equity.

60:9. It is only as regards those who fought against you on account of religion, and have driven you out of your homes, and helped to drive you out, that Allâh forbids you to befriend them. And whosoever will befriend them, then such are the Zâlimûn (wrong-doers those who disobey Allâh).

The Noble Quran : Surat 60

5:51 you who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians as Auliyâ' (friends, protectors, helpers, etc.), they are but Auliyâ' to one another. And if any amongst you takes them as Auliyâ', then surely he is one of them. Verily, Allâh guides not those people who are the Zâlimûn (polytheists and wrong doers and unjust).
The Noble Quran : Surat 5


The Prohibition of Being Loyal Friends with Disbelievers


This Ayah discourages and forbids taking the enemies of Islam and its people, such as the People of the Book and the polytheists, as friends. These disbelievers mock the most important acts that any person could ever perform, the honorable, pure acts of Islam which include all types of good for this life and the Hereafter. They mock such acts and make them the subject of jest and play, because this is what these acts represent in their misguided minds and cold hearts. Allah said;
Tafsir.com Tafsir Ibn Kathir

The Prohibition of Supporting the Disbelievers


Allah prohibited His believing servants from becoming supporters of the disbelievers, or to take them as comrades with whom they develop friendships, rather than the believers. Allah warned against such behavior when He said,



Tafsir.com Tafsir Ibn Kathir

You can  still hate and be equatable 

The Muslim should feel in his heart that he hates the kuffaar and the way they look and behave. This hatred will motivate him to avoid looking like them at all in the way he dresses or in other ways. Do you not see that a person who despises a people or tribe, or people from a certain country, will hate to dress like them, especially if they are poor
Islam Question and Answer - Is wearing jeans imitating the kuffaar?

But visiting kaafirs in order to have a good time with them is not permitted, because it is obligatory to hate them and shun them
Islam Question and Answer - Making friends with a kaafir woman


The Most High has said: "O you who believe! Do not take your fathers and brothers as friends if they prefer disbelief over belief. Whoever amongst you befriends them, they are the wrongdoers" (9:23). He also said: "O You who believe, do not take My enemy and your enemy as friends and protectors. You show them love when they have rejected the truth that has come to you" (60:1). 

The Prophet of Allah (S.A.W.) has said: "The faith of a believer is never complete until his love is for Allah's sake and his hatred is for Allah's sake". And he also said: "Love for Allah and love for His enemy can never co-exist in the heart of a believer". 

Traditions of this genre are innumerable. Reason in itself is enough proof that Allah, Glory be to Him, has made believers love faith and adorned it in their hearts. He has made them hate disbelief, corruption and disobedience. For a man may hate his son or his father or his brother for his opposition to the truth and his swaying back and forth to the path of Satan; and he may love a stranger to whom he has no connection, except the brotherhood of Islam. 

For all of this, it is incumbent that our love, affection and friendship be to those whom Allah has commanded us to love, just as it is necessary that our animosity, hatred and dissociation be from those whom Allah, Glory be to Him, has ordered us to dissociate from. 

As a result of this, our affection is for 'Ali and the Imams from his progeny, even though there was no preceding love for them; [this is] because the Qur'an, sunna, history and reason have left us no doubt regarding them. 
http://www.balagh.net/english/ahl_bayt/ask_those_who_know/06.htm


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## Mr.Fitnah (Aug 12, 2009)

Rubber Hoser said:


> Mr.Fitnah said:
> 
> 
> > Rubber Hoser said:
> ...



Really?
http://www.usmessageboard.com/1413179-post813.html


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## Rubber Hoser (Aug 12, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> Rubber Hoser said:
> 
> 
> > Mr.Fitnah said:
> ...



You have an arab saying tattooed on your wrist? Man, you're an allah lover, regardless of what it says.


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## Sunni Man (Aug 12, 2009)

Rubber Hoser said:


> Mr.Fitnah said:
> 
> 
> > Rubber Hoser said:
> ...


I think you are right Rubber Hoser

Mr. Fitnah is in love with arabs and muslims.

I think that's why he posts about them all of the time.

Heck, I wouldn't doubt if he is some kind of taliban!!!


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## Mr.Fitnah (Aug 12, 2009)

Rubber Hoser said:


> Mr.Fitnah said:
> 
> 
> > Rubber Hoser said:
> ...


Whelp I'm done with you , you aught to try to read the thread from the beginning.


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## Rubber Hoser (Aug 12, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> Rubber Hoser said:
> 
> 
> > Mr.Fitnah said:
> ...



Just as well, because I think it's time for you to go kiss your carpet a few times.


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## Fatality (Aug 12, 2009)

Rubber Hoser said:


> Mr.Fitnah said:
> 
> 
> > Rubber Hoser said:
> ...



im guessing the rubber hose is what you cram up ur ass at night?


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## PixieStix (Aug 12, 2009)

fatality said:


> rubber hoser said:
> 
> 
> > mr.fitnah said:
> ...


 
lol


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## PixieStix (Aug 12, 2009)

Rubber Hoser said:


> Mr.Fitnah said:
> 
> 
> > Rubber Hoser said:
> ...


 
You have reading comprehension problems eh?


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## Kalam (Aug 12, 2009)

This part was an accurate assessment:


Rubber Hoser said:


> you think for yourself less or not at all


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## Fatality (Aug 13, 2009)

Kalam said:


> This part was an accurate assessment:
> 
> 
> Rubber Hoser said:
> ...



so you admit you do not think for yourself?


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## Mr.Fitnah (Aug 13, 2009)

He's a mutz, so he is prone to unending postulatism. 
He overthinks everything and loses,  the point along the way.


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## Rubber Hoser (Aug 13, 2009)

Fatality said:


> Rubber Hoser said:
> 
> 
> > Mr.Fitnah said:
> ...



Cool, more muslim lovers. Are you a real carpet kisser or just an imposter cut & paste loser like kalam (notice he didn't dispute what I said about him)? Or maybe you're one of those sand darkies who was cheering on 9/11 and got so happy that you had to go beat all your wives?


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## JenT (Aug 13, 2009)

Rubber Hoser said:


> Mr.Fitnah said:
> 
> 
> > Rubber Hoser said:
> ...



you think all arabs are Muslim? sheeesh


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## JenT (Aug 13, 2009)

Rubber Hoser said:


> Fatality said:
> 
> 
> > Rubber Hoser said:
> ...



I would probably get in trouble if I suggested anything like get a new nic, so I'm not, but you really should talk to the admin and maybe PAY to start over

then you might have a chance of credibility and read a little more carefully?


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## Fatality (Aug 13, 2009)

Rubber Hoser said:


> Fatality said:
> 
> 
> > Rubber Hoser said:
> ...



im guessing that rubber hose is imbedded in your ass at this point in your life. if you stopped inserting it years ago it might not have gotten stuck. guess youll just have to continue to live wiht it.


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## Rubber Hoser (Aug 13, 2009)

Fatality said:


> Rubber Hoser said:
> 
> 
> > Fatality said:
> ...



You're the one with the fetish about my asshole. Now go tell your mom that you're queer and you can't stop thinking of other men's starfish.


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## Fatality (Aug 13, 2009)

Rubber Hoser said:


> Fatality said:
> 
> 
> > Rubber Hoser said:
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 i have no doubts that you also use that embedded hose as a feeding tube


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## Rubber Hoser (Aug 13, 2009)

Fatality said:


> Rubber Hoser said:
> 
> 
> > Fatality said:
> ...



I'm not muslim.


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## Fatality (Aug 13, 2009)

Rubber Hoser said:


> Fatality said:
> 
> 
> > Rubber Hoser said:
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liar


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## Rubber Hoser (Aug 13, 2009)

Fatality said:


> Rubber Hoser said:
> 
> 
> > Fatality said:
> ...



here's proof: I think that mohammed was a snot chewing pedophile and allah was his camel.

You're the muslim lover. Go copy & paste a passage from the koran, we don't have enough of that here yet.


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## Mr.Fitnah (Aug 13, 2009)

Rubber Hoser said:


> Fatality said:
> 
> 
> > Rubber Hoser said:
> ...



I would say Mohammad was a piss drinking ,child rapist and  allah is a black rock up a camels ass.
You will no further distract from the purpose of this thread , you carpet kissing muslim idiot.


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## Mr.Fitnah (Aug 13, 2009)

Many muslims like to say " Islam forbids the killing of innocent people"
Please provide Islamic scripture to prove unequivocally non muslims are innocent.


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## Rubber Hoser (Aug 13, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> Many muslims like to say " Islam forbids the killing of innocent people"
> Please provide Islamic scripture to prove unequivocally non muslims are innocent.



You muslims thanking each other all day? 

You want someone to prove to you that non-muslims are innocent? What for? You in dire need of another copy&paste koranic riddle?


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## mystic (Aug 13, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> 37 MAKING WRONG INTERPRETATION OF THE QURAN
> Tafsir means informing and discovering. It is the process of informing and explaining. Tawil means pulling back or escaping. Tafsir  comes to mean giving a meaning.
> 
> Tawil is selection of one of the meaning among many meanings. It is not permissible (Jaiz) to make Tafsir according to ones own opinion. Tafsir is performed according to the rules of transmission (Riwayat or Nakl). On the other hand, Tawil is done according to ones knowledge and capabilities. In one hadith, Rasulullah, peace be upon him, said, A person who interprets the Quran according to his own opinion is in clear error even if he is right.
> ...



This is exactly what I'm refering to.  Please back up your justification with Quran. Hadith or what some guy thinks are pretty worthless to me.
Seems if it was important, it would be in the Quran. Can you find anything in Quran that says it's forbidden to make your own study of it? If you can find something, I'm most willing to concede the point.


----------



## mystic (Aug 13, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> In general, I  do not address New or Old testament scripture .
> 
> I under took my study of Islam shortly after 911 when I heard Islam had been hijacked and twisted, I sought details  since none was forthcoming.
> I wanted to defend muslims  from bigots who  had said things about Islam .
> ...



How can you think that disbelief is a crime? Especially when the Quran says clearly that: 

There is no compulsion in religion (Quran 2:256)

As far as 911 looking like how Islam should be practiced...how do you reconcile that belief with the fact that Quran forbids murder as well as suicide?

"Why do the misunderstanders always misunderstand in exactly the same way?" Because people generally are assholes in the same way.  People have always used their religion as justification for their insanity.

Look, I have no stake in this, I'm not Muslim and have no interest in converting you. I just think it's a shame that you would be anti-Muslim because of the interpetations of some people. Religions always get whole heaping piles of dogma attached to them that obscure beauty. I consider knowledge of the Quran a beautiful addition to anyone seeking truth and evolution of the soul.

That's all. Thank you for hearing me out.


----------



## Mr.Fitnah (Aug 13, 2009)

mystic said:


> Mr.Fitnah said:
> 
> 
> > 37 MAKING WRONG INTERPRETATION OF THE QURAN
> ...


I do not care if you concede agree or evaporate.
 Im not here to convince you or prove you right or wrong.You can have your own interpretation if you wish .
I can affirm that based on writing that my interpretation is widely held  and there  no decision  from any source of Islamic jurisprudence that  disagrees with me with the exception of some minor  heretical cults .So there are other interpretations , but they carry no weight  as they do not reflect scriptural Islam that include traditional Islamic fiqh.

I just suggest that further study may be helpful before you make any conclusions  I did.
I find the tafsir  very helpfull.As is knowing the chronology of the Quran 

Tafsir.com Tafsir Ibn Kathir
It is also nessacary to know the order of revealtion so you know what abrogates what?
2:256 was uttered in 610 AD 
,It was abrogated in 627 Ad with the ayet of the sword  and other verses

Islam does not forbid murder its calendar starts when the  murders began and educates with murder, teaching socities you can not resist Ilsam  under threat of murder.
 The history of Islam included suicidal attacks that end with glory to the maryter  who were willing to spend in the cause of allah

You are one of its people.) Umayr went ahead, broke the scabbard of his sword, took some dates and started eating from them. He then threw the dates from his hand, saying, "Verily, if I lived until I finished eating these dates, then it is indeed a long life.'' He went ahead, fought and was killed, may Allah be pleased with him.

Im willing to hear anyone out as long as they are reasonable .
We are not required to agree.


----------



## Mr.Fitnah (Aug 14, 2009)

As far as  the study of the Quran.
Tafsir.com Tafsir Ibn Kathir
There are things that are clear and things that are not clear there are appartent contradictions, sources  of knowledge  beyond the Quran are required to decern  true meaning.
I find that referring to the work of respected scholars can illuminate the meaning rather than guessing .
No work is more widely accepted  for explaining the Quran than the Tafsir of Ibn Kathir.


----------



## Rubber Hoser (Aug 14, 2009)

Islam should forbid copy&pasting.


----------



## Mr.Fitnah (Aug 15, 2009)

Many muslims like to say " Islam forbids the killing of innocent people"
Please provide Islamic scripture to prove unequivocally non muslims are innocent.


----------



## JW Frogen (Aug 15, 2009)

Lets save some time and go to a shorter list, what does Islam allow other than two ticks of the bomb to paradise and male subliminal eroticism taken out on their wives anus'.


----------



## Rubber Hoser (Aug 17, 2009)

I heard that mohammed married a 2 year old. Is that true?


----------



## Liability (Aug 17, 2009)

Rubber Hoser said:


> I heard that mohammed married a 2 year old. Is that true?




Some say 6.

Some say 12.

The kid was still playing with dolls.

Of course, things were different back in those days.  Kids did get "married" at much earlier ages than people get married today.

But still....


----------



## Mr.Fitnah (Aug 17, 2009)

She was six according to her  own  recored stamanets he molested her for years before raping her at 9
, he had the hots for an infant as well.
Al Sira

(Suhayli, ii.79: In the riwaya of Yunus I.I recorded that the apostle saw her (Ummu&#65533;l-Fadl) when she was baby crawling before him and said, &#65533;If she grows up and I am still alive I will marry her.&#65533; But he died before she grew up and Sufyan b. al-Aswad b. Abdu&#65533;l-Asad al-Makhzumi married her and she bore him Rizq and Lubaba&#65533;.(Ref.3, page 311)
*BABY TILTHS:*

65.4 You can marry (and divorce) little girls who have not yet reached menstruation age.

Our prophet married Ayesha at age 6 to comply with this aya. However due to her tender age he had to restrict himself to thighing before she reached age of 9. 

Thighing is defined by Islamic scholar Khomeini in "Tahrirolvasyleh" fourth volume, Darol Elm, Gom, Iran, 1990 as follows: 

"Thighing is a means for an adult male to enjoy a young girl who is still in the age of weaning; meaning to place his penis between her thighs, and to kiss her." 

The following is from a committee of muslim ulema answering the question:
"the Prophet, the peace of Allah be upon him, practiced "thighing" of Aisha - the mother of believers - may Allah be pleased with her."


Sahih Muslim Book 008, Number 3310:
'A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported: Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) married me when I was six years old, and I was admitted to his house when I was nine years old.

Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 64
Narrated 'Aisha:
that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old, and then she remained with him for nine years (i.e., till his death).

Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 65<I>
<FONT face=Arial>Narrated 'Aisha:
that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old. Hisham said: I have been informed that 'Aisha remained with the Prophet for nine years (i.e. till his death)." what you know of the Quran (by heart)'

Sahih Bukhari 5.236.
Narrated Hisham's father:
Khadija died three years before the Prophet departed to Medina. He stayed there for two years or so and then he married 'Aisha when she was a girl of six years of age, and he consumed that marriage when she was nine years old.

*More from The Ayatollah Khomeini :Tahrirolvasyleh.*




A man can have sexual pleasure from a child as young as a baby. However, he should not penetrate; sodomising the child is OK. If the man penetrates and damages the child then he should be responsible for her subsistence all her life.
This girl, however, does not count as one of his four permanent wives. The man will not be eligible to marry the girl's sister.


It is better for a girl to marry in such a time when she would begin menstruation at her husband's house rather than her father's home. Any father marrying his daughter so young will have a permanent place in heaven.


A man can have sex with animals such as sheeps, cows, camels and so on. However, he should kill the animal after he has his orgasm. He should not sell the meat to the people in his own village; however, selling the meat to the next door village should be fine.


----------



## JenT (Aug 17, 2009)

Mr. you are a wealth of information, some of the saddest kind, but just the same, thanks. 

(and no wonder slick willy is such buds with Islam)


----------



## Mr.Fitnah (Aug 17, 2009)

JenT said:


> Mr. you are a wealth of information, some of the saddest kind, but just the same, thanks.
> 
> (and no wonder slick willy is such buds with Islam)


All pols/media  are in bed with Islam since  the Saudis promise golden parachutes after making the west safe of Islam.
It explains Micheal Jackson  converting.
[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tGnXbauWeZo&feature=PlayList&p=41FE14AB7C46EF5F&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=39[/ame]


----------



## Fatality (Aug 17, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> JenT said:
> 
> 
> > Mr. you are a wealth of information, some of the saddest kind, but just the same, thanks.
> ...



that and all the little boy acttion he could get


----------



## Liability (Aug 17, 2009)

JenT said:


> Mr. you are a wealth of information, some of the saddest kind, but just the same, thanks.
> 
> (and no wonder slick willy is such buds with Islam)



A wealth of sad information.  

Very well said, Jen.

It is sad.


----------



## Mr.Fitnah (Aug 21, 2009)

Liability said:


> JenT said:
> 
> 
> > Mr. you are a wealth of information, some of the saddest kind, but just the same, thanks.
> ...


That is the way it is sometimes sorry.

Many muslims like to say " Islam forbids the killing of innocent people"
Please provide Islamic scripture to prove unequivocally non muslims are innocent.


----------



## John Lemmon (Aug 21, 2009)

islam apparently doesn't allow fitnah to say anything intelligent.


----------



## Liability (Aug 21, 2009)

John Lemmon said:


> islam apparently doesn't allow fitnah to say anything intelligent.



That is only "apparent" to complete imbeciles who wouldn't recognize an intelligent comment if it were engraved on Stone Tablets by the Hand of God Himself.


----------



## John Lemmon (Aug 21, 2009)

Liability said:


> John Lemmon said:
> 
> 
> > islam apparently doesn't allow fitnah to say anything intelligent.
> ...



Why, anyone got those stone tablets? No? That's what I thought. Ok, now you can go back to worshipping fitnah.


----------



## Liability (Aug 21, 2009)

John Lemmon said:


> Liability said:
> 
> 
> > John Lemmon said:
> ...



Nobody ever explained to the sub-moron John Lemmon the meaning of the word "if."



One need not "worship" Mr. Fitnah to recognize that he's a whole boatload smarter (and more well read on this topic, too) than you ever could manage.


----------



## John Lemmon (Aug 21, 2009)

Liability said:


> John Lemmon said:
> 
> 
> > Liability said:
> ...



He's about as smart as a John Belushi on a speedball. I think you need another hit.


----------



## Mr.Fitnah (Aug 21, 2009)

Many muslims like to say " Islam forbids the killing of innocent people"
Please provide Islamic scripture to prove unequivocally non muslims are innocent.


----------



## Liability (Aug 21, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> Many muslims like to say " Islam forbids the killing of innocent people"
> Please provide Islamic scripture to prove unequivocally non muslims are innocent.



You are like a dog with a bone.


----------



## Kalam (Aug 22, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> 65.4 You can marry (and divorce) little girls who have not yet reached menstruation age.


65:4 makes no reference to marrying girls who have not yet menstruated. It only mentions divorcing them; the practice was in existence long before the advent of Islam. 



Mr.Fitnah said:


> Our prophet married Ayesha at age 6 to comply with this aya.


Incorrect.



Kalam said:


> RetiredGySgt said:
> 
> 
> > So Mohammad did not marry a 9 year old? Is that your claim?
> ...






Mr.Fitnah said:


> However due to her tender age he had to restrict himself to thighing before she reached age of 9.


Source?



Mr.Fitnah said:


> Thighing is defined by Islamic scholar Khomeini in "Tahrirolvasyleh" fourth volume, Darol Elm, Gom, Iran, 1990 as follows:


There is no fourth volume of _Tahrirolvasyleh_. Regardless, Khomeini's opinion means nothing without a Qur'anic basis. 



Mr.Fitnah said:


> The following is from a committee of muslim ulema answering the question:
> "the Prophet, the peace of Allah be upon him, practiced "thighing" of Aisha - the mother of believers - may Allah be pleased with her."


Source?




Mr.Fitnah said:


> A man can have sexual pleasure...


Not even Khomeini would express support for this. Please provide specific page numbers and links to the sources to which you refer. Of course you'd copy and paste something before taking the time to verify its authenticity yourself.


----------



## John Lemmon (Aug 22, 2009)

Islam forbids kalam from being a real muslim. He doesn't even support today's jihad, nor polygamy, nor pedophilia (like mohammed), and probably doesn't wipe his ass with his hand either.


----------



## Mr.Fitnah (Aug 22, 2009)

There can be no divorce with out marriage. 
Mohammad molested little girls  then raped  them.
Tahrirolvasyleh encyclopedia topics | Reference.com

Stop the drivel .
Prove none muslims are unequivocally  innocent according to Islamic scripture.


----------



## Mr.Fitnah (Aug 22, 2009)

Liability said:


> Mr.Fitnah said:
> 
> 
> > Many muslims like to say " Islam forbids the killing of innocent people"
> ...


It is in my opinion an important question ,perhaps the only question of importance when it comes to Islam.


----------



## Mr.Fitnah (Aug 22, 2009)

More on  molestation  for anyone interested.
Bukhari:V4B52N211 &#8220;* I participated in a Ghazwa [raid] with the Prophet. I said, &#8216;Apostle, I am a bridegroom.&#8217; He asked me whether I had married a virgin or matron. I answered, &#8216;A matron.&#8217; He said, &#8216;Why not a virgin who would have played 
with you?
Then you could have played with her.
Then you could have played with her.
Then you could have played with her.
Then you could have played with her.
Then you could have played with her.&#8217; &#8216;Apostle! My father was martyred and I have some young sisters, so I felt it not proper that I should marry a young girl as young as them.&#8217;

http://www.faithfreedom.org/Articles/JenniferKing50718p2.htm
What is "thighing"? - Yahoo! Answers
[ame=http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=VMS0YexWBTk&feature=related]YouTube - the sexual abuse of childern in Islam[/ame]
[ame=http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=tz3I9hhCXCI]YouTube - Islamic Law Condones Child RAPE[/ame]*


----------



## Mr.Fitnah (Aug 22, 2009)

[/IMG]
Page 128
Title: The Last Years of the Prophet (eBook) 
SUNY Series in Near Eastern Studies
by Tabari.; Husayn, Ismaáåil Qurban.
Publication: Albany State University of New York Press, 1988.
View this eBook | Show Details | Remove from Favorites

NetLibrary - Login


----------



## Mr.Fitnah (Aug 22, 2009)

Net library host  the suny series in near east studies 
 the only known translation of the Tabari as far as I know .
Sign up at your local library if you want to read it.


----------



## Kalam (Aug 22, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> There can be no divorce with out marriage.


Yes, I explained that these marriages had occurred before the advent of Islam. The Qur'an only discusses their annulment. 



Mr.Fitnah said:


> Mohammad molested little girls  then raped  them.


False.



Mr.Fitnah said:


> Stop the drivel .
> Prove none muslims are unequivocally  innocent according to Islamic scripture.



I did. You were eventually forced to claim that you subscribed to a "different interpretation."


----------



## Mr.Fitnah (Aug 22, 2009)

Please , You have revealed your "Islam' is less than traditional  and you have failed to produce any unequivocal proof non muslims are innocent accord to Islamic scripture.
Please Bozo sapien  get on with it .
Please provide Islamic scripture to prove unequivocally non muslims are innocent.


----------



## Kalam (Aug 22, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> More on  molestation  for anyone interested.
> Bukhari:V4B52N211 &#8220;* I participated in a Ghazwa [raid] with the Prophet. I said, &#8216;Apostle, I am a bridegroom.&#8217; He asked me whether I had married a virgin or matron. I answered, &#8216;A matron.&#8217; He said, &#8216;Why not a virgin who would have played
> with you?*


*

More lies. The narrator of this hadith describes marrying an older woman rather than a younger woman so that his wife could help teach his younger sisters. Nowhere is it suggested that he should have married a prepubescent girl. 

Your links cite the same fake sources that you presumably copied and pasted from some Islamophobic blog. Please post something substantive; you're boring me. You consider relocating to Saudi Arabia... the Wahhabis there enjoy inventing and spreading complete lies about Jews similar to yours about Muslims.*


----------



## Mr.Fitnah (Aug 22, 2009)

Kalam said:


> Mr.Fitnah said:
> 
> 
> > More on  molestation  for anyone interested.
> ...


*
Sorry that is not proof
Please provide Islamic scripture to prove unequivocally non muslims are innocent.*


----------



## Kalam (Aug 22, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> Sorry that is not proof
> Please provide Islamic scripture to prove unequivocally non muslims are innocent.


We were discussing marriage in Islam, not the status of non-Muslims.


----------



## Mr.Fitnah (Aug 22, 2009)

Kalam said:


> Mr.Fitnah said:
> 
> 
> > Sorry that is not proof
> ...


Incorrect.
The thread topic is clear.
"Proving none muslims  are unequivocally innocent according to Islamic scripture ".
You  will not hijack the thread.


----------



## Mr.Fitnah (Aug 22, 2009)

Many muslims like to say " Islam forbids the killing of innocent people"
Please provide Islamic scripture to prove unequivocally non muslims are innocent.


----------



## Kalam (Aug 22, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> Kalam said:
> 
> 
> > Mr.Fitnah said:
> ...



You "hijacked" your own thread, numbnuts. 

You began posting disgusting lies about marital relations in Islam, which I addressed. If you'd like to admit that you were incorrect and discuss something else, fine. If you'd like to address my post (preferably with something substantive rather than more copy-pasted nonsense), excellent. Don't attempt to jump to another topic and accuse me of derailing your little thread here, though.


----------



## Mr.Fitnah (Aug 22, 2009)

I understand your concern , you have had your say. 
The fact is  you wish to reject authentic hadith( also firmly established) and ignore it implications ,
_*Bukhari:V4B52N211  I participated in a Ghazwa [raid] with the Prophet. I said, Apostle, I am a bridegroom. He asked me whether I had married a virgin or matron. I answered, A matron. He said, Why not a virgin who would have played 
with you?
Then you could have played with her.
Then you could have played with her.
Then you could have played with her.
Then you could have played with her.
Then you could have played with her. Apostle! My father was martyred and I have some young sisters, so I felt it not proper that I should marry a young girl as young as them.*_*
Clearly the hadith establishes your blind spot, Mohammads concern and interest is in children in bed, not in  the proper raising of children.

 The topic is closed , those playing along at home can decide for themselves. as for the topic of the thread it stands .

Many muslims like to say " Islam forbids the killing of innocent people"
Please provide Islamic scripture to prove unequivocally non muslims are innocent.*


----------



## Mr.Fitnah (Aug 29, 2009)

Many muslims like to say " Islam forbids the killing of innocent people"
Please provide Islamic scripture to prove unequivocally non muslims are innocent.


----------



## John Lemmon (Aug 29, 2009)

Kalam said:


> You "hijacked" your own thread, numbnuts.
> 
> You began posting disgusting lies about marital relations in Islam, which I addressed. If you'd like to admit that you were incorrect and discuss something else, fine. If you'd like to address my post (preferably with something substantive rather than more copy-pasted nonsense), excellent. Don't attempt to jump to another topic and accuse me of derailing your little thread here, though.



"numbnuts", is that an islamic word for cleric?
kalam, are muslims allowed to marry multiple women because most muslims chicks are ugly, fat and hairy, so you're allowed to try again? Kinda like a marital mulligan?


----------



## Sunni Man (Aug 29, 2009)

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZSXTo5hjVbc]YouTube - Beautiful women with hijab[/ame]


----------



## Mr.Fitnah (Aug 29, 2009)

Sunni Man said:


> YouTube - Beautiful women with hijab


Sorry that is not proof
Many muslims like to say " Islam forbids the killing of innocent people"
Please provide Islamic scripture to prove unequivocally non muslims are innocent.


----------



## Sunni Man (Aug 29, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> > YouTube - Beautiful women with hijab
> ...



Mr. Fitnuts you are such an Idiot

My post was in response to John Lemmons post not yours


----------



## Mr.Fitnah (Aug 29, 2009)

Sunni Man said:


> Mr.Fitnah said:
> 
> 
> > Sunni Man said:
> ...


He is deservingly on ignore.


----------



## Kalam (Aug 30, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> Then you could have played with her.


Let me make sure I understand you correctly: it's your contention that "virgin" refers exclusively to prepubescent girls? I have female friends as old as I am who are virgins.



logical4u said:


> The topic is closed , those playing along at home can decide for themselves. as for the topic of the thread it stands.


Sorry, Sally, you don't get to make some lame argument and forbid everybody from pointing out how ridiculous it is.


----------



## mal (Aug 30, 2009)

Sunni Man said:


> YouTube - Beautiful women with hijab



She should be Stoned to Death for Insulting Allah by Showing her Whore Face like that!...



peace...


----------



## Mr.Fitnah (Aug 30, 2009)

Kalam said:


> Mr.Fitnah said:
> 
> 
> > Then you could have played with her.
> ...


The hadith concerns  young girls , Mohammad's predisposition for  the young has been documented,
This thread is  for the purpose of proving non muslims are innocent according to Islamic scripture.

Many muslims like to say " Islam forbids the killing of innocent people"
Please provide Islamic scripture to prove unequivocally non muslims are innocent.


----------



## mal (Aug 30, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> Kalam said:
> 
> 
> > Mr.Fitnah said:
> ...



You don't Expect anything More than Continued Deflections and Evasions, do you, Brother?...



peace...


----------



## Kalam (Aug 30, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> The hadith concerns  young girls ,


No, it concerns "virgins," meaning most girls who had not been married. 



Mr.Fitnah said:


> Mohammad's predisposition for  the young has been documented,


In inaccurate reports, yes.



Mr.Fitnah said:


> This thread is  for the purpose of proving non muslims are innocent according to Islamic scripture.


Then stick to your own topic.


----------



## Mr.Fitnah (Aug 30, 2009)

Kalam said:


> Mr.Fitnah said:
> 
> 
> > The hadith concerns  young girls ,
> ...



Bukhari:V4B52N211  I participated in a Ghazwa [raid] with the Prophet. I said, Apostle, I am a bridegroom. He asked me whether I had married a virgin or matron. I answered, A matron. He said, Why not a virgin who would have played 
with you?
Then you could have played with her.
Then you could have played with her.
Then you could have played with her.
Then you could have played with her.
Then you could have played with her. Apostle! My father was martyred and I have some *young sisters*, so I felt it not proper that I should marry a *young girl as young *as them.


----------



## Mr.Fitnah (Aug 30, 2009)

Many muslims like to say " Islam forbids the killing of innocent people"
Please provide Islamic scripture to prove unequivocally non muslims are innocent.


----------



## Kalam (Aug 30, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> Bukhari:V4B52N211  I participated in a Ghazwa [raid] with the Prophet. I said, Apostle, I am a bridegroom. He asked me whether I had married a virgin or matron. I answered, A matron. He said, Why not a virgin who would have played
> with you?
> Then you could have played with her.
> Then you could have played with her.
> ...



This is supposed to prove your point?


----------



## JenT (Aug 30, 2009)

Kalam said:


> Mr.Fitnah said:
> 
> 
> > Bukhari:V4B52N211  I participated in a Ghazwa [raid] with the Prophet. I said, Apostle, I am a bridegroom. He asked me whether I had married a virgin or matron. I answered, A matron. He said, Why not a virgin who would have played
> ...



Kalam, obviously it shows not everyone was a pedophile


----------



## JenT (Aug 30, 2009)

Another evidence of child brides is written in the Quran:

SHAKIR: And (as for) those of your women who have despaired of menstruation, if you have a doubt, their prescribed time shall be three months, and of those too who have not had their courses; and (as for) the pregnant women, their prescribed time is that they lay down their burden; and whoever is careful of (his duty to) Allah He will make easy for him his affair. 

Child brides could not be divorced until three months after they started their first period.


----------



## JenT (Aug 30, 2009)

_Many muslims like to say " Islam forbids the killing of innocent people"
Please provide Islamic scripture to prove unequivocally non muslims are innocent._

So Kalam, WHERE does it say non-Muslims can be innocent again? Aren't we already guilty by definition as non-Muslim? 

Sure seems like it. Dhimmis are even to be beaten for the privelege of paying taxes, a blow to the head or back of the neck as we hand the money over. Lovely ritual.


----------



## Kalam (Aug 30, 2009)

JenT said:


> Kalam, obviously it shows not everyone was a pedophile



Junt, please tell how old the sisters of Jabir bin 'Abdullah were at the time that the events in that report supposedly took place. Remember, every time you make a dishonest statement, Yassir Arafat twists the head off of a kitten.


----------



## Mr.Fitnah (Aug 30, 2009)

Kalam said:


> JenT said:
> 
> 
> > Kalam, obviously it shows not everyone was a pedophile
> ...


That is not proof,
Many muslims like to say " Islam forbids the killing of innocent people"
Please provide Islamic scripture to prove unequivocally non muslims are innocent.


----------



## Kalam (Aug 30, 2009)

"Child marriages" are not permitted in Islam. Marriage is only permissible when both the husband and the wife have attained intellectual maturity, as noted in 4:6 -

_*And test the orphans until they reach the age of marriage. Then if you find in them maturity of intellect, make over to them their property, and consume it not extravagantly and hastily against their growing up.* And whoever is rich, let him abstain, and whoever is poor let him consume reasonably. And when you make over to them their property, call witnesses in their presence. And Allah is enough as a Reckoner._​


JenT said:


> Another evidence of child brides is written in the Quran:
> 
> SHAKIR: And (as for) those of your women who have despaired of menstruation, if you have a doubt, their prescribed time shall be three months, and of those too who have not had their courses; and (as for) the pregnant women, their prescribed time is that they lay down their burden; and whoever is careful of (his duty to) Allah He will make easy for him his affair.
> 
> Child brides could not be divorced until three months after they started their first period.


For one thing, this passage deals exclusively with divorce. For Muslims, this applies only to the exceptional circumstance in which a woman has reached the age of majority but has not yet had her courses. Menarche can occur as late as 17-18 years of age. People will generally expect you to properly cite your sources (the uncited verse in this case is 65:4.) I guess I should have learned not to expect proper citation from you by now. 

Also, please remind us of how old Mary was when you believe God knocked her up.


----------



## Mr.Fitnah (Aug 30, 2009)

Although classical jurists permitted a legal guardian (only the father or grandfather in most schools) to conclude the marriage contract of a minor girl or boy without their consent (wil&#257;yat al-ijb&#257;r), contemporary jurists have strongly discouraged the act.

 Today, most countries have adopted legislation that explicitly forbids child marriages and forbids a guardian from compelling a woman into marriage. In Algeria, Iraq, Kuwait, Lebanon, Libya, Malaysia, Morocco, Somalia, Syria, Tunisia, and Yemen, forced marriages arranged by the guardian, even if it is the father, are illegal (Esposito, p. 100). Pakistan introduced penal restrictions to regulate underage marriages 

(Pakistan). Nevertheless, even in classical Islamic law, both parties have the option of dissolving the marriage after puberty; the marriage cannot be consummated before puberty. Moreover, in classical law, the marriage of children was permitted only if it was proven to be in the interest of the child and concluded by a father who is not corrupt or unreliable (sayyi&#8190; al-tasarruf).

Log In - Oxford Islamic Studies Online

Apparently the jihad will have to continue until  sharia is practiced in  those "Islamic countries"


----------



## Mr.Fitnah (Aug 30, 2009)

Many muslims like to say " Islam forbids the killing of innocent people"
Please provide Islamic scripture to prove unequivocally non muslims are innocent.


----------



## THE LIGHT (Aug 31, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> Islam forbids the killing of innocent people"
> Please provide scripture to proves unequivocally non muslims are innocent
> Shirk is worse than Killing
> 
> ...


 
The question is, who is "innocent" in their eyes?


----------



## JenT (Aug 31, 2009)

THE LIGHT said:


> Mr.Fitnah said:
> 
> 
> > Islam forbids the killing of innocent people"
> ...



I'm not sure but if a Dhimmi, a non-Muslim who lives on Muslim land, subjects himself to all kinds of impunity and humiliation, pays the tax, etc., simply for refusing to pray to Allah...and for all that he still cannot testify against a Muslim...I'd say chances are not good he's considered "innocent".


----------



## JenT (Aug 31, 2009)

Kalam said:


> "Child marriages" are not permitted in Islam. Marriage is only permissible when both the husband and the wife have attained intellectual maturity, as noted in 4:6 -
> 
> _*And test the orphans until they reach the age of marriage. Then if you find in them maturity of intellect, make over to them their property, and consume it not extravagantly and hastily against their growing up.* And whoever is rich, let him abstain, and whoever is poor let him consume reasonably. And when you make over to them their property, call witnesses in their presence. And Allah is enough as a Reckoner._​
> 
> ...



You're right, the passage deals with divorce. What's going on if you can't get divorced before 3 months after your first period? Sounds like if someone wants to divorce you but has to wait til your first period, you are mighty young to be married, most girls start from 9 to 11. 



Kalam said:


> "Child marriages" are not permitted in Islam. Marriage is only permissible when both the husband and the wife have attained intellectual maturity, as noted in 4:6 -
> 
> _*And test the orphans until they reach the age of marriage. Then if you find in them maturity of intellect, make over to them their property, and consume it not extravagantly and hastily against their growing up.* And whoever is rich, let him abstain, and whoever is poor let him consume reasonably. And when you make over to them their property, call witnesses in their presence. And Allah is enough as a Reckoner._​



How does 4:6 show what age they consider intellectually mature? What's that standard? A pedophile could claim the child by merely talking has reached a level of intellectual maturity. 

Meanwhile Aisha is quoted:

Narrated Aisha: My marriage (wedding) contract with the Prophet was written when I was a girl of six (years)....There in the house I saw some Ansari [recent Muslim converts] women who said,"Best wishes and Allah's Blessing and a good luck." Then she entrusted me to them and they prepared me (for the marriage). Unexpectedly Allah's Messenger came to me in the forenoon and my mother handed me over to him, and at that time I was a girl of nine years of age."  Sahih Bukhari, vol. 5, bk 63, no 3894 

Mohammad is said to be over fifty at this time.


----------



## Kalam (Aug 31, 2009)

JenT said:


> You're right, the passage deals with divorce. What's going on if you can't get divorced before 3 months after your first period?


The injunction applies only to men who want to divorce their wives. 



JenT said:


> Sounds like if someone wants to divorce you but has to wait til your first period, you are mighty young to be married, most girls start from 9 to 11.


I addressed this in my last post. Do try to keep up. 



JenT said:


> How does 4:6 show what age they consider intellectually mature?


It's identified here with the age of majority. 



JenT said:


> A pedophile could claim the child by merely talking has reached a level of intellectual maturity.


Which is why the judgment is not theirs to make...



JenT said:


> Meanwhile Aisha is quoted:
> 
> Narrated Aisha: My marriage (wedding) contract with the Prophet was written when I was a girl of six (years)....There in the house I saw some Ansari [recent Muslim converts] women who said,"Best wishes and Allah's Blessing and a good luck." Then she entrusted me to them and they prepared me (for the marriage). Unexpectedly Allah's Messenger came to me in the forenoon and my mother handed me over to him, and at that time I was a girl of nine years of age."  Sahih Bukhari, vol. 5, bk 63, no 3894


Yawn.



Kalam said:


> Her age was lowered in that report so that no questions would be raised about her virginity, and by extension, the legitimacy of Muhammad's offspring through her.
> 
> Source: _"All of these specific references to the bride's age reinforce Aisha's pre-menarcheal status and, implicitly, her virginity. They also suggest the variability of Aisha's age in the historical record."_ - D. A. Spellberg, _Politics, Gender, and the Islamic Past._​
> In reality, she had been betrothed to Jubair Ibn al Mut'am, a pagan, before her engagement to Muhammad. Jubair eventually annulled their engagement. In at least two separate sources it is pointed out that Asma bint Abi Bakr, Aisha's half-sister, was 100 years old when she died in 73 AH. That would make Aisha 90 in 73 AH.
> ...





JenT said:


> Mohammad is said to be over fifty at this time.


Remind us again of Mary's age when she was betrothed to Joseph (90 years old) according to your scripture. You ignored my question.


----------



## John Lemmon (Aug 31, 2009)

kalam, so aisha was nine and was already on her second marriage? And she wasn't even a virgin?


----------



## Mr.Fitnah (Aug 31, 2009)

Many muslims like to say " Islam forbids the killing of innocent people"
Please provide Islamic scripture to prove unequivocally non muslims are innocent.


----------



## John Lemmon (Aug 31, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> Many muslims like to say " Islam forbids the killing of innocent people"
> Please provide Islamic scripture to prove unequivocally non muslims are innocent.



Hey hand asswiper, why don't you stfu with that. Non-muslims are all to be killed. It says it in the coran book of hand asswipers.


----------



## Mr.Fitnah (Aug 31, 2009)

Many muslims like to say " Islam forbids the killing of innocent people"
Please provide Islamic scripture to prove unequivocally non muslims are innocent.


----------



## Liability (Aug 31, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> Many muslims like to say " Islam forbids the killing of innocent people"
> Please provide Islamic scripture to prove unequivocally non muslims are innocent.



Hey hey hey.  Mr. F.

I have no idea wtf "John Lemmon" might have meant in the post he seems to have incoherently addressed to you.  

But I do admire your ability to ask that simple question over and over in the (vain) hope that anybody will ever have the guts to try to honestly answer it.

And I believe I know why they duck it, instead.

Good form.


----------



## Mr.Fitnah (Aug 31, 2009)

He is on ignore, he is an ignorant bigot.
Your post  was not proof.

Many muslims like to say " Islam forbids the killing of innocent people"
Please provide Islamic scripture to prove unequivocally non muslims are innocent.


----------



## Kalam (Aug 31, 2009)

John Lemmon said:


> kalam, so aisha was nine and was already on her second marriage?


Fourteen. The first marriage wasn't ever fulfilled; it was merely a betrothal that both parties decided to annul. 



John Lemmon said:


> And she wasn't even a virgin?


Yes she was.


----------



## Mr.Fitnah (Aug 31, 2009)

Page 128
Title: The Last Years of the Prophet (eBook) 
SUNY Series in Near Eastern Studies
by Tabari.; Husayn, Ismaáåil Qurban.
Publication: Albany State University of New York Press, 1988.
View this eBook | Show Details | Remove from Favorites

NetLibrary - Login


----------



## Mr.Fitnah (Aug 31, 2009)

Many muslims like to say " Islam forbids the killing of innocent people"
Please provide Islamic scripture to prove unequivocally non muslims are innocent.


----------



## Kalam (Aug 31, 2009)

Kalam said:


> The Qur'anic directives regarding how disbelievers are to be treated, consistent throughout the entire book:
> 
> _*And fight in the way of Allah against those who fight against you but be not aggressive. Surely Allah loves not the aggressors.* And kill them wherever you find them, and drive them out of where they drove you out, and persecution is worse than slaughter. And fight not with them at the Sacred Mosque until they fight with you in it; *so if they fight you, slay them. Such is the recompense of the disbelievers. But if they desist, then surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.* And fight them until there is no persecution, and religion is only for Allah. But if they desist, then there should be no hostility except against the oppressors. The sacred month for the sacred month, and retaliation in sacred things. *Whoever then acts aggressively against you, inflict injury on him according to the injury he has inflicted on you* and keep your duty to Allah, and know that Allah is with those who keep their duty._ - (2:190-194)
> 
> ...



Let's see if you can succeed where your friend utterly failed.


----------



## Kalam (Aug 31, 2009)

Liability said:


> Mr.Fitnah said:
> 
> 
> > Many muslims like to say " Islam forbids the killing of innocent people"
> ...


Of course you'd pop a boner over Mr. Fitnuts' platitudinous questions and pitiful reliance on non-Qur'anic sources, you unthinking bigot. Let's see you do something other than swoon over him.


----------



## Kalam (Aug 31, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> Page 128
> Title: The Last Years of the Prophet (eBook)
> SUNY Series in Near Eastern Studies
> by Tabari.; Husayn, Ismaáåil Qurban.
> ...



What's this supposed to prove? The marriage took place when Aishah was fourteen and was consummated five years later, when she was nineteen.


----------



## Liability (Aug 31, 2009)

Kalam said:


> Liability said:
> 
> 
> > Mr.Fitnah said:
> ...



No no.  Listen up little one.  I leave that whole "popping of boners over males" to guys like you.  Do stay away from the youngsters, though, please.

And in any event, Mr. F has repeatedly asked the question.  You have come closest to attempting to answer it, but since you lie most of the time (as many Muslims are taught it is proper to do), your answers tend to be most unsatisfactory and quite unreliable.

And you are also wrong in another matter, nimrod.  I harbor a low opinion of Islam.  That's true.  But that does not make me a bigot.  I know it will startle a tiny little vacant mind such as yours, but people are completely free to reject the hatred that is Islam without being a "bigot" because of such rejection.  

Now, I see fit to correct your effort to deceive:

War is a requirement for the people of the so-called "Religion of Peace [sic]."



> 002.191
> YUSUFALI: And slay them wherever ye catch them, and turn them out from where they have Turned you out; for tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter; but fight them not at the Sacred Mosque, unless they (first) fight you there; but if they fight you, slay them. Such is the reward of those who suppress faith.
> PICKTHAL: And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter. And fight not with them at the Inviolable Place of Worship until they first attack you there, but if they attack you (there) then slay them. Such is the reward of disbelievers.
> SHAKIR: And kill them wherever you find them, and drive them out from whence they drove you out, and persecution is severer than slaughter, and do not fight with them at the Sacred Mosque until they fight with you in it, but if they do fight you, then slay them; such is the recompense of the unbelievers.
> ...


 CRCC: Center For Muslim-Jewish Engagement: Resources: Religious Texts


----------



## Kalam (Aug 31, 2009)

Liability said:


> No no.  Listen up little one.  I leave that whole "popping of boners over males" to guys like you.  Do stay away from the youngsters, though, please.


Hey, now, let's not begin projecting. 



Liability said:


> And in any event, Mr. F has repeatedly asked the question.


He has had it answered, repeatedly, by a number of people using a multitude of different approaches. This thread has received way more attention than it deserves. Fitnuts' decision to reject out-of-hand anything that contradicts his puerile notion of "Islamic evil" does not in any way mean that his lame-ass points haven't been sufficiently addressed. 



Liability said:


> You have come closest to attempting to answer it, but since you lie most of the time (as many Muslims are taught it is proper to do), your answers tend to be most unsatisfactory and quite unreliable.


Please point out where I have lied. Please address my posts and highlight the "unsatisfactory" and "unreliable" parts - I find the "unreliable" allegation especially hilarious given that I cite all of my sources properly. 



Liability said:


> And you are also wrong in another matter, nimrod.  I harbor a low opinion of Islam.  That's true.  But that does not make me a bigot.  I know it will startle a tiny little vacant mind such as yours, but people are completely free to reject the hatred that is Islam without being a "bigot" because of such rejection.


You're a bigot because, like Fitnuts, you've decided that you're correct about Islam (based on what limited knowledge you have on the subject) and are unwilling to accept anything that isn't consistent with your idiotic viewpoint. Hence your groveling at the feet of cut-n'-paste tools like Mr. Fitnah. 



Liability said:


> Now, I see fit to correct your effort to decieve:
> 
> 002.191


Look up, chump change. 



			
				Kalam said:
			
		

> *And fight in the way of Allah against those who fight against you but be not aggressive. Surely Allah loves not the aggressors.* And kill them wherever you find them, and drive them out of where they drove you out, and persecution is worse than slaughter. *And fight not with them at the Sacred Mosque until they fight with you in it; so if they fight you, slay them. Such is the recompense of the disbelievers. But if they desist, then surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful. *And fight them until there is no persecution, and religion is only for Allah. *But if they desist, then there should be no hostility except against the oppressors. The sacred month for the sacred month, and retaliation in sacred things. Whoever then acts aggressively against you, inflict injury on him according to the injury he has inflicted on you* and keep your duty to Allah, and know that Allah is with those who keep their duty. - (2:190-194)



Sort of an inauspicious beginning to your "correction," eh?



Liability said:


> 002.216


All injunctions to fight must be examined within the context of the Qur'anic guidelines I provided a few posts back. In this case, the call for war was clearly made against those who were "fighting" Muslims and attempting to "turn them back" from their religion (mentioned in the next verse, 2:217.) 

That it?


----------



## Kalam (Aug 31, 2009)

Now, let's watch as Mr. Fitnah attempts to respond to my post with cut-n'-pasted opinions from Ibn Kathir or the dude over at IslamQ&A. Five bucks says he'll throw this somewhere in there as well:



			
				Fitnuts said:
			
		

> Many muslims like to say " Islam forbids the killing of innocent people"
> Please provide Islamic scripture to prove unequivocally non muslims are innocent.


----------



## Mr.Fitnah (Aug 31, 2009)

Kalam said:


> Liability said:
> 
> 
> > No no.  Listen up little one.  I leave that whole "popping of boners over males" to guys like you.  Do stay away from the youngsters, though, please.
> ...


Do you read the Quran in such a way that surah 2 is the final surah?


----------



## Kalam (Aug 31, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> Do you read the Quran in such a way that surah 2 is the final surah?



Read correctly, chronological order is sort of irrelevant. That's why it wasn't arranged chronologically. Excuse me for assuming that you could have inferred that. Now, crawl back into your hole until you address the post I made that contains passages from throughout the book. 

Had you bothered to read the post I was responding to, you'd notice that Disability made the reference to the second surah, and I merely clarified something for him using the verse he cited and those surrounding it.


----------



## Kalam (Aug 31, 2009)

Observe now as Fitnuts posts the same cut-n'-pasted crap about abrogation that I've already refuted.


----------



## Mr.Fitnah (Aug 31, 2009)

Please  provide any rational one would  disregard  chronological reading ?Other than ignorance?


----------



## John Lemmon (Aug 31, 2009)

So aisha was 14 and on her second wedding? What a fucking ho she must have been. What's the matter, Mo couldn't find a virgin anywhere in the middle east? LOL.
Kalam, are there even any cute arab chicks that don't need to be covered with a sheet?


----------



## Kalam (Aug 31, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> Please  provide any rational one would  disregard  chronological reading ?Other than ignorance?


Already have.


----------



## Mr.Fitnah (Aug 31, 2009)

Many muslims like to say " Islam forbids the killing of innocent people"
Please provide Islamic scripture to prove unequivocally non muslims are innocent.


----------



## Sunni Man (Aug 31, 2009)

JenT said:


> Another evidence of child brides is written in the Quran:
> 
> SHAKIR: And (as for) those of your women who have despaired of menstruation, if you have a doubt, their prescribed time shall be three months, and of those too who have not had their courses; and (as for) the pregnant women, their prescribed time is that they lay down their burden; and whoever is careful of (his duty to) Allah He will make easy for him his affair.
> 
> Child brides could not be divorced until three months after they started their first period.


JenT the three month rule in Islam is very rational and logical.

If a man is divorcing his wife, reguardles of her age.

He cannot totally seperate untill 3 months has passed and no sexual intercourse has occurred.

This time period is to make sure that the woman is not pregnant.

If she is found during the 3 months to be pregnant. 

Then the man must stay and provide for the wife during the pregnancy and for a prescribed time after the child is born.


----------



## Mr.Fitnah (Aug 31, 2009)

Many muslims like to say " Islam forbids the killing of innocent people"
Please provide Islamic scripture to prove unequivocally non muslims are innocent.


----------



## Kalam (Aug 31, 2009)

I think Fitnuts short-circuited again. 

Good explanation SM!


----------



## Mr.Fitnah (Aug 31, 2009)

Kalam said:


> I think Fitnuts short-circuited again.
> 
> Good explanation SM!


Sorry that is not proof.
Many muslims like to say " Islam forbids the killing of innocent people"
Please provide Islamic scripture to prove unequivocally non muslims are innocent.


----------



## Kalam (Aug 31, 2009)




----------



## Mr.Fitnah (Aug 31, 2009)

Sorry that is not proof.
Many muslims like to say " Islam forbids the killing of innocent people"
Please provide Islamic scripture to prove unequivocally non muslims are innocent.


----------



## Mr.Fitnah (Aug 31, 2009)

Kalam said:


>



Consider it a remix
[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S48uD-RFWBs[/ame]
I prefer this one.


----------



## John Lemmon (Aug 31, 2009)

Sunni Man said:


> If a man is divorcing his wife, reguardles of her age.
> 
> He cannot totally seperate untill 3 months has passed and no sexual intercourse has occurred.
> 
> This time period is to make sure that the woman is not pregnant.



So muslim women only have their period every 3 months? Or are arab men just dumber than dry camel shit?


----------



## Liability (Aug 31, 2009)

Kalam said:


> Liability said:
> 
> 
> > No no.  Listen up little one.  I leave that whole "popping of boners over males" to guys like you.  Do stay away from the youngsters, though, please.
> ...



Don't fret, dipstick.  I wasn't.  I was giving you a direction.  Try to keep up.


----------



## Liability (Aug 31, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> Please  provide any rational one would  disregard  chronological reading ?Other than ignorance?



Muslims with the mental instability of Kalam, say "Chronological Schmonological."

Yeah.

But he doesn't "lie."



http://www.bombaxo.com/chronsurs.html

The Mecca ones came  before the Medina ones, roughly speaking.  But they are evidently ordered (for the most part) according to size.    Ya can't make this crap up!


----------



## Kalam (Aug 31, 2009)

Liability said:


> Mr.Fitnah said:
> 
> 
> > Please  provide any rational one would  disregard  chronological reading ?Other than ignorance?
> ...



You're aware that the Qur'an is not arranged in chronological order, correct?


----------



## Kalam (Aug 31, 2009)

Fitnuts - Post 609 is waiting eagerly for you to address it.


----------



## Kalam (Aug 31, 2009)

Anything else, Disability?


----------



## Kalam (Aug 31, 2009)

Liability said:


> But he doesn't "lie."



Feel free to show me where I have.


----------



## Sunni Man (Aug 31, 2009)

Many people in the West have a background which includes reading the Bible.

The Bible is arranged in a chronological order and can be read in a linear fashion.

That is to say; from prehistory (Genesis) to the end of time (Revelations)


The Quran is not set up chronological; but is arranged topically.

Thus, students of the Quran access topics and subjects, either by memory, or by a numbering system of verses and chapters.


----------



## Liability (Aug 31, 2009)

Kalam said:


> Anything else, Disability?



Anything else about what Malarky?


----------



## Kalam (Aug 31, 2009)

Liability said:


> Kalam said:
> 
> 
> > Anything else, Disability?
> ...



Anything else to say? Any response to my refutation of your attempt to criticize the Qur'an? Any evidence of me "lying"?


----------



## Liability (Aug 31, 2009)

Kalam said:


> Liability said:
> 
> 
> > Kalam said:
> ...




You have lied repeatedly about the Qur'an because that's what you do.

Your "refutation" is just more of the same.  A non-refutation offered as a refutation.

You calling it a refutation is just another one of your endless lies.

 Malarky, you and your lies bore me.

Islam is anything but a religion of peace.


----------



## Kalam (Aug 31, 2009)

Liability said:


> You have lied repeatedly about the Qur'an because that's what you do.


Where? 



Liability said:


> Your "refutation" is just more of the same.  A non-refutation offered as a refutation.
> 
> You calling it a refutation is just another one of your endless lies.


Please respond to it then and explain to us how it's a "non-refutation" and a "lie." 



Liability said:


> Malarky, you and your lies bore me.
> 
> Islam is anything but a religion of peace.


A knuckle-dragging bigot who dishonestly evades my points and has the sack to accuse _me_ of lying, eh?

If my posts were "lies" and "non-refutations," you'd be able to expose them as such. Run along now, and don't forget to blow Fitnuts a kiss on your way out.


----------



## Liability (Aug 31, 2009)

A little further support for Mr. Fitnah and some further evidence that Malarky is a *lover* of lies.  



> * * * *
> 
> The Myth:
> 
> ...


 Excerpted from:  TheReligionofPeace - Myths of Islam

I particularly liked that excerpt because it addresses the question that Mr. F. has asked repeatedly, but confronts the endless litany of lies from Islamic lying apolgists like Malarky.

The rest of that web piece is also informative.


----------



## Mr.Fitnah (Aug 31, 2009)

Kalam said:


> Fitnuts - Post 609 is waiting eagerly for you to address it.


Get a better Quran.
The Noble Quran


----------



## Mr.Fitnah (Aug 31, 2009)

Kalam said:


> Liability said:
> 
> 
> > Kalam said:
> ...



Here are a few .
http://www.usmessageboard.com/1472934-post617.html
http://www.usmessageboard.com/1457051-post142.html 
http://www.usmessageboard.com/1398369-post444.html 
http://www.usmessageboard.com/1397570-post438.html 
http://www.usmessageboard.com/1397169-post435.html 
http://www.usmessageboard.com/1391044-post23.html 
http://www.usmessageboard.com/1386873-post676.html 
http://www.usmessageboard.com/1362813-post273.html 
http://www.usmessageboard.com/1359548-post196.html 
http://www.usmessageboard.com/1341789-post76.html

Although your lies are part of the thread they do not constitute proof.
Many muslims like to say " Islam forbids the killing of innocent people"
Please provide Islamic scripture to prove unequivocally non muslims are innocent.


----------



## Kalam (Aug 31, 2009)

Liability said:


> A little further support for Mr. Fitnah and some further evidence that Malarky is a *lover* of lies.


Congratulations. Your cut-n'-paste skills are almost as impressive as those of Mr. Fitnuts. 

"thereligionofpeace.com": an accurate and unbiased examination of the Islamic religion, I'm sure. Tell you what - I'll respond to this one for you. Pull up a chair... I won't entertain every mess of cut-n'-pasted arguments like this. 



Liability said:


> Even though many Muslims earnestly believe that their religion prohibits the killing of innocent people by acts of terrorism, the truth is certainly more complicated.


Not really. Muslims are commanded to "leave" disbelievers alone (15:2-3) as long as they remain peaceful. Even if a Muslims feels hatred toward disbelievers, he's specifically instructed not to let this hatred "incite [him] not to act equitably" (5:2, 5:8.) In fact, as long as a group of disbelievers does not seek to fight Muslims for religious reasons or rob them of their property, the Qur'an demands that Muslims "show them kindness and deal with them justly" (60:8.) It is therefore established that Muslims are not permitted to commit acts of hostility towards those who don't seek to harm them similarly. 



Liability said:


> This is why the Jihadis and their detractors are both able to point fingers at the other, while confidently insisting that they are the true Muslims.


Interpretations that permit aggressive warfare have no Qur'anic basis. The Qur'an expressly forbids warfare against those who don't take up arms against Muslims. For adherents of Islam, warfare becomes permissible when "war is made" upon them (22:39.) Warfare is consistently referred to as a matter of defense against aggressors (9:12-13, 42:36-43.) Moreover, Muslims must "incline toward peace" if the aggressors do the same (2:190-194, 4:89-91, 8:61.)



Liability said:


> It is also why organizations that commit horrible atrocities in the name of Allah, such as Hamas and Hezbollah, receive moral and financial support from mainstream Muslims and Islamic charities.


Incorrect. Organizations that target innocents would receive no support whatsoever from Muslims if they were mindful of the words of the Qur'an. 



Liability said:


> In fact, the definition of an innocent person is far more ambiguous in Islam than Muslim apologists want others to know.  So, also, is the definition of terrorism.


An innocent person is one that cannot be permissibly attacked. The Qur'an makes it clear that these people are all of those who have not initiated hostilities with or acted aggressively towards Muslims. No Qur'anic definition for "terrorism" exists because it's a neologism. Not even the West seems to be able to put forth a clear definition of terrorism that doesn't include themselves or their allies. 



Liability said:


> First, consider that anyone who rejects Muhammad is not considered to be innocent under Islamic law.


Baseless, of course. Where is this said in the Qur'an?



Liability said:


> The most protected and respected of all non-Muslims are the dhimma, the people of the book.  These would specifically be Jews and Christians who agree to Islamic rule and pay the jizya (tribute to Muslims).  Yet, the word dhimmi comes from the Arabic root meaning guilt or "blame."  ["...the dhimmi parent and sister words mean both 'to blame' as well as safeguards that can be extended to protect the blameworthy" Amitav Ghosh, In an Antique Land


Not really. The "most protected and respected" of all non-Muslims in an Islamic society are those who observe the laws of the society as Muslims do while remaining religiously distinct. They are, in fact, part of the ummah, as many of the Jews of Yathrib were when the Messenger &#65018; arrived there and established peace between the warring tribes. See the Madinah Compact: "Constitution" of Medina (Dustur al-Madinah)



Liability said:


> So, if even the dhimma have a measure of guilt attached to their status (by virtue of having rejected Allahs full truth), then how can non-Muslims who oppose Islamic rule or refuse to pay the jizya be considered innocent?


This is not a particularly good argument, nor one that properly represents the Arabic used in the Qur'an. "Dhimma" comes from the dhaal-miim-miim trilateral root, which _can_ have connotations of "guilt," but only suggests "agreement," "protection," and "obligation" where it's used in the Qur'an. Let's look at how the root is used:

I cannot highlight the word in the Arabic verse; the language is written right-to-left so putting tags around the word completely jumbles up the passage. It shouldn't be difficult to find, anyway. the word is *&#1584;&#1616;&#1605;&#1617;&#1614;&#1577;&#1611;&#1773;*

&#1603;&#1614;&#1610;&#1618;&#1601;&#1614; &#1608;&#1614;&#1573;&#1616;&#1606; &#1610;&#1614;&#1592;&#1618;&#1607;&#1614;&#1585;&#1615;&#1608;&#1575;&#1759; &#1593;&#1614;&#1604;&#1614;&#1610;&#1618;&#1603;&#1615;&#1605;&#1618; &#1604;&#1614;&#1575; &#1610;&#1614;&#1585;&#1618;&#1602;&#1615;&#1576;&#1615;&#1608;&#1575;&#1759; &#1601;&#1616;&#1610;&#1603;&#1615;&#1605;&#1618; &#1573;&#1616;&#1604;&#1617;&#1611;&#1773;&#1575; &#1608;&#1614;&#1604;&#1614;&#1575; &#1584;&#1616;&#1605;&#1617;&#1614;&#1577;&#1611;&#1773; &#1754; &#1610;&#1615;&#1585;&#1618;&#1590;&#1615;&#1608;&#1606;&#1614;&#1603;&#1615;&#1605; &#1576;&#1616;&#1571;&#1614;&#1601;&#1618;&#1608;&#1614;&#1648;&#1607;&#1616;&#1607;&#1616;&#1605;&#1618; &#1608;&#1614;&#1578;&#1614;&#1571;&#1618;&#1576;&#1614;&#1609;&#1648; &#1602;&#1615;&#1604;&#1615;&#1608;&#1576;&#1615;&#1607;&#1615;&#1605;&#1618; &#1608;&#1614;&#1571;&#1614;&#1603;&#1618;&#1579;&#1614;&#1585;&#1615;&#1607;&#1615;&#1605;&#1618; &#1601;&#1614;&#1648;&#1587;&#1616;&#1602;&#1615;&#1608;&#1606;&#1614;

_Kayfa wain yathharoo AAalaykum la yarquboo feekum illan wala *thimmatan *yurdoonakum biafwahihim wataba quloobuhum waaktharuhum fasiqoona_

_How, seeing that if they get an advantage over you, they respect not in you the ties either of kinship or of *covenant*? With their mouths they entice you, but their hearts are averse from you; and most of them are rebellious and wicked._ - 9:8​
We'll examine it in another passage as well:


&#1604;&#1614;&#1575; &#1610;&#1614;&#1585;&#1618;&#1602;&#1615;&#1576;&#1615;&#1608;&#1606;&#1614; &#1601;&#1616;&#1609; &#1605;&#1615;&#1572;&#1618;&#1605;&#1616;&#1606;&#1613; &#1573;&#1616;&#1604;&#1617;&#1611;&#1773;&#1575; &#1608;&#1614;&#1604;&#1614;&#1575; &#1584;&#1616;&#1605;&#1617;&#1614;&#1577;&#1611;&#1773; &#1754; &#1608;&#1614;&#1571;&#1615;&#1608;&#1759;&#1604;&#1614;&#1648;&#1619;&#1574;&#1616;&#1603;&#1614; &#1607;&#1615;&#1605;&#1615; &#1649;&#1604;&#1618;&#1605;&#1615;&#1593;&#1618;&#1578;&#1614;&#1583;&#1615;&#1608;&#1606;&#1614;

_Ishtaraw biayati Allahi *thamanan *qaleelan fasaddoo AAan sabeelihi innahum saa ma kanoo yaAAmaloona_

_In a Believer they respect not the ties either of kinship or of *covenant*! It is they who have transgressed all bounds._​
Feel free to look it up in a dictionary yourself - &#1584;&#1616;&#1605;&#1617;&#1614;&#1577;&#1611;&#1773;

Thus, in the Qur'an, the word has connotations of protection, not guilt. 



Liability said:


> Within the Islamic community itself there is a category of Muslims who are also said to bear guilt  greater even than the average non-believer.  These are the hypocrites, or Munafiqin, whom Muhammad referred to in the most derogatory terms.  A hypocrite is considered to be a Muslim in name only.  They are distinguished either by an unwillingness to wage holy war or by an intention to corrupt the community of believers.


A hypocrite can only be distinguished by his actions - he professes to believe in Islam but secretly seeks to harm his Muslim brothers and sisters and refuses to help them in divinely-sanctioned conflicts, which, as we've established, are to be fought in self-defense. 



Liability said:


> When Muslims kill Muslims in the name of Allah (which occurs quite frequently), they usually do so believing that their victims are Munafiqin or kafir (unbelievers).


Actually, fighting between Muslims is almost always over political grievances. Religious motivation seems to be used as a false pretense by hypocritical leaders in an effort to rally support for their political causes. 



Liability said:


> This is actually a part of Islamic Law known as takfir, in which Muslims are declared apostates and then executed.  (A true Muslim would go to paradise anyway, in which case he or she could hardly be expected to nurse a grudge amidst the orgy of sex and wine).


This description is entirely incorrect. A Muslim is only an apostate if he himself declares his apostasy. Moreover, there is absolutely no mention of apostasy being a capital offense in the Qur'an (feel free to prove me wrong,) so killing somebody simply for leaving Islam is itself an un-Islamic action.



Liability said:


> In addition to the murky definition of innocence, there is also the problem of distinguishing terrorism from holy war.  Islamic terrorists never refer to themselves as terrorists, but always as holy warriors (Mujahideen, Shahid, or Fedayeen).  They consider their acts to be a form of Jihad.


Wrong. "Terrorists" are only praised as mujahideen by other terrorists. The word for "terrorist" is &#1573;&#1585;&#1607;&#1575;&#1576;&#1610; (irhaabi). Their actions are a form of irhaab, not jihad. 



Liability said:


> Holy war is something that Muhammad commanded in the Quran and Hadith.  In Sura 9:29, he establishes the principle that unbelievers should be fought until they either convert to Islam or accept a state of humiliation under Islamic subjugation.  This is confirmed in the Hadith by both Sahih Muslim and Bukhari.


For one thing, fighting these individuals is only permissible in defensive circumstances. Once they're overcome by the Muslims (that's if they chose to keep fighting instead of inclining toward peace), they have a choice to accept Islamic law and live as one with the ummah while remaining religiously distinct - see the Madinah Compact. If they choose instead to remain autonomous ("forbid not that which Allah and His messenger have forbidden" - 9:29,) they are given dhimmi status, which means that they pay a tax in exchange for autonomy and draft exemption. 



Liability said:


> In many places, the prophet of Islam says that Jihad is the ideal path for a Muslim, and that believers should fight in the way of Allah.


This is true. It's the duty of every Muslim of sound body and mind to fight in defense of his religion and in opposition to oppression. 



Liability said:


> There are dozens of open-ended passages in the Quran that exhort killing and fighting  far more than ones of peace and tolerance.


Incorrect. All of the commandments to fight are either made with reference to a specific enemy (usually the Quraysh) or within the context of Islam's requirement that war must be fought in self-defense. 



Liability said:


> It is somewhat naïve to think that their inclusion in this "eternal discourse between God and Man" was of historical value only and not intended to be relevant to present-day believers, particularly when there is little to nothing within the text that distinguishes them in such fashion.


Of course. The injunction to protect the community of believers and their religion applies always. 



Liability said:


> Combine the Quranic exhortation to holy war with the ambiguity of innocence, and a monumental problem develops that cannot be patched by mere semantics.


What we're dealing with does not fall under the category of "semantics" - we're dealing with the unambiguous words of the Qur'an. Those Muslims who choose to reject its clear commandments are in error, those who follow its commandments are not. It's really quite simple. 



Liability said:


> Not only is there a deep tolerance for violence in Islam, but also a sharp disagreement and lack of clarity over the conditions that justify this violence... and just whom the targets may be.


The Qur'an, as we've seen, makes the conditions clear. The people being attacked must have attacked you first, oppressed you, or gone back on their agreement with you. 



Liability said:


> Even many Muslims who claim to be against terrorism still support the insurgency in Iraq, for example, and often entertain the allegation that there is a broader war against Islam. Although American troops in Iraq are trying to protect innocent life and help the country rebuild, Muslims around the world and in the West believe that it is legitimate for Sunnis and Shias to try and kill them.


And? There is no basis for this belief. Until America starts oppressing Islam or attacking the religion itself, attacking it is completely not allowed. America won't do this, so I doubt there's anything to worry about.



Liability said:


> Enjoying the sanction of holy war, the Mujahid reasons that it is permissible to attack fellow Iraqis  the ones helping the Americans even if they are part of a democratically-elected Iraqi government.  These non-combatants and combatants alike are believed to be the Munafiqin or "Takfir" assisting the enemy Crusaders.


Again, this belief has no basis in Islam. 



Liability said:


> Although we use Iraq as an example here, this is the same rationale that is ultimately behind all Islamic terror, from the Philippines to Thailand.  Wherever the religion of Islam is a minority, there are always radicals who believe that violence is justified in bringing it to dominance - just as Muhammad taught by example in places like Mecca and the land of al-Harith.


Muhammad fought wars exclusively to defend the Islamic community and its allies. 



Liability said:


> And what of the so-called innocents who suffer from the bombings and shootings?  Even in Muhammads time they were unavoidable.  The much-touted hadith in which Muhammad forbade the killing of women also indicates that there were such casualties in his conflicts.


But not that those casualties were created by Muslims. Killing innocents is absolutely forbidden.



Liability said:


> If there is any doubt that he believed that the forbidden is sometimes necessary, it should be put to rest by an incident in which Muhammad's men warned him that a planned night raid against an enemy camp would mean that women and children would be killed.  He merely replied they are of them, meaning the men.


Source?



Liability said:


> This is the slippery slope that is opened by the sanction of holy war.  What starts out as the perception of a noble cause of self-defense against a supposed threat gradually devolves into a "let Allah sort them out" campaign through a series of logical steps that are ultimately justified by the sublime goal of Islamic rule.


This article is becoming repetitive. It is made clear in the Qur'an that wars may _only _be fought against those who seek to destroy, attack, oppress, or double-cross the Islamic community. It may not be expanded to other people. 



Liability said:


> Islam is not intended to co-exist as an equal with other religions.  It is to be the dominant religion, with Sharia as the supreme law.  Islamic rule is to be extended to the ends of the earth, and resistance is to be dealt with by any means necessary.


Spreading Islam coercively is forbidden. Islam is to be spread through proselytization, not through conquest.



Liability said:


> Apologists in the West often shrug off the Qur'an's many verses of violence by saying that they are only relevant in a time of war.
> 
> To this, Islamic terrorists would agree.  They are at war.


War without Qur'anic justification. They're guilty of manifest transgressions.


----------



## Kalam (Aug 31, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> Kalam said:
> 
> 
> > Fitnuts - Post 609 is waiting eagerly for you to address it.
> ...


Sorry, I prefer using an accurate translation rather than one that sinfully reflects the author's own viewpoints. If you don't like the Maulana M. Ali's translation, consider today your lucky day. I'll give you the same passages using Ahmed Ali's translation, which is the translation published by Princeton University and Oxford University.


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## Kalam (Aug 31, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> Kalam said:
> 
> 
> > Liability said:
> ...



Clearly, posting arguments with Qur'anic corroboration is "lying." 

You truly are impervious to reason, Fitnuts.


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## Mr.Fitnah (Aug 31, 2009)

Kalam said:


> Mr.Fitnah said:
> 
> 
> > Kalam said:
> ...


Dont bother,  I use the one that does not impart  the translators bias by trying to translate words from Arabic into English were no corresponding words exists.


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## Liability (Aug 31, 2009)

Kalam said:


> * * * *
> 
> Congratulations. Your cut-n'-paste skills are almost as impressive as those of Mr. Fitnuts.
> 
> ...



Oh thank God!  Believe it or not, Malarky, you are not endlessly fascinating.  In fact, you are quite uninteresting.

You LOVE to bandy about expressions like "the [Qur'an] makes clear," but that's just one of your endless litany of lies.

There is nothing "clear" about ANY of that hodgepodge collection of self-contradictory babble that qualifies as "clear."

I did indeed exercise a little bit of copy and paste (note: it's not actually "cut" and paste).  The ENTIRE site goes into greater detail -- as I noted earlier -- in exposing the numerous fraudulent things you say.  

It is idiots like you who make atheism so attractive to so many people.  Your violent cartoon religion is far too in love with violence and the notions of "submission," etc., for any rational person to ever take seriously.  

Take one nasty barbarian madman, toss in a hefty dosage of hatred, a ton of violence, degradation, 6th Century thinking, submission, pedophilia, misogyny, militarism and far too many unthinking "followers" and you end up with "Islam."  Islam is NOT the relgion of "peace,"  but a religion PREMISED on SUBMISSION.


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## Mr.Fitnah (Aug 31, 2009)

Kalam said:


> War without Qur'anic justification. *They're guilty of manifest transgressions*.


2:193. And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allâh) and (all and every kind of) worship is for Allâh (Alone).[] But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against Az-Zâlimûn (the polytheists, and wrong-doers, etc.)
* let there be no transgression except against Az-Zâlimûn 
 let there be no transgression except against Az-Zâlimûn 
 let there be no transgression except against Az-Zâlimûn 
 let there be no transgression except against Az-Zâlimûn 
*
The Quran reflects Mohammad

33:21. Indeed in the Messenger of Allâh (Muhammad ) you have a good example to follow for him who hopes in (the Meeting with) Allâh and the Last Day and remembers Allâh much. 


'Abdullah bin 'Umar, may Allah be pleased with them, reported: 
Allah's Messenger said: I have been commanded to fight against people till they testify that there is no god but Allah, and that Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah,* perform the Prayer, and pay Zakah*. If they do that, their blood and property are guaranteed protection on my behalf except when justified by law, and their affairs rest with Allah. 
http://hadith.al-islam.com/bayan/display.asp?Lang=eng&ID=12

Abu Hurairah, may Allah be pleased with him, reported: 
The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said: I have been commanded to fight against people until they testify that there is no god but Allah, and he who professes it is guaranteed the protection of his property and life on my behalf except for a right warrant, and his affairs rest with Allah. 
http://hadith.al-islam.com/bayan/display.asp?Lang=eng&ID=11

Only muslims pay zakah


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## Mr.Fitnah (Aug 31, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> Kalam said:
> 
> 
> > Liability said:
> ...



We can add this one as well

http://www.usmessageboard.com/1474541-post644.html


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## Kalam (Sep 1, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> Kalam said:
> 
> 
> > Mr.Fitnah said:
> ...



"The Noble Qur'an" is injected with the author's own interpretations and opinions. If you're unwilling to recognize the accuracy of Ahmed Ali's translation, there's no reason for you to involve yourself in any debate concerning the book.


----------



## Kalam (Sep 1, 2009)

Liability said:


> Oh thank God!  Believe it or not, Malarky, you are not endlessly fascinating.  In fact, you are quite uninteresting.


Of course you aren't interested in what the Qur'an actually says; you're much more concerned with what Islamophobic websites have to say about it.



Liability said:


> You LOVE to bandy about expressions like "the [Qur'an] makes clear," but that's just one of your endless litany of lies.


Using direct quotes from the Qur'an in my arguments is certainly a clear example of "lying." Go ahead and check my Qur'anic citations, the information I provided about Arabic roots, or anything else in my post and show me how it's inaccurate. 



Liability said:


> There is nothing "clear" about ANY of that hodgepodge collection of self-contradictory babble that qualifies as "clear."


I guess that's true for people who function below a third-grade reading level. Since I don't believe that anybody here falls into that category, I'm confident that the Qur'an is clear enough to be understood by all of us. 



Liability said:


> I did indeed exercise a little bit of copy and paste (note: it's not actually "cut" and paste).  The ENTIRE site goes into greater detail -- as I noted earlier -- in exposing the numerous fraudulent things you say.


The entire site is based on the flawed premise that the most violent interpretation of Islam is automatically the most correct. While it's better than fundie Christian nonsense like "Answering Islam," it uses the same half-brained blanket statements and misrepresentations to make its arguments. Did you think this was the first time I've seen that site or something? If I was interested in cut-n'-pasted arguments from thereligionofpeace.com, I'd be talking to them. I'm interested in hearing _your_ thoughts on the subject, not theirs. 



Liability said:


> It is idiots like you who make atheism so attractive to so many people.  Your violent cartoon religion is far too in love with violence and the notions of "submission," etc., for any rational person to ever take seriously.


Why is it, then, that the majority of atheists I've encountered don't seem to have a problem with me or my religion? They're generally the ones who are able to recognize the differences between Qur'anic Islam and political causes that sinfully seek religious justifications for their crimes. With few exceptions, every self-proclaimed "expert" on the Islamic religion who has attempted to challenge my beliefs has been a Christian who is ironically unaware of the horror and violence their own religion demands. I'll hand it to them, some of them are legitimately intelligent and have actually challenged the way I think about my religion, using well-reasoned and thoughtful arguments. Unfortunately, none of those individuals seem to be present in this thread.

If you were willing to respond to my arguments thoughtfully rather than making lame accusations of "lying" your recourse, we'd be able to get somewhere. I'm willing to have a civil and intelligent discussion if you are.


----------



## Kalam (Sep 1, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> 2:193


I thought you believed in the false doctrine of abrogation. 

_What! will you not fight a people who broke their oaths and aimed at the expulsion of the Messenger, and they attacked you first; do you fear them? But Allah is most deserving that you should fear Him, if you are believers._ - 9:13 (Shakir)

_...and let not hatred of a people-- because they hindered you from the Sacred Masjid-- incite you to exceed the limits, and help one another in goodness and piety, and do not help one another in sin and aggression; and be careful of (your duty to) Allah; surely Allah is severe in requiting (evil)._ - 5:2 (Shakir)

_O you who believe! Be upright for Allah, bearers of witness with justice, and let not hatred of a people incite you not to act equitably; act equitably, that is nearer to piety, and he careful of (your duty to) Allah; surely Allah is Aware of what you do._ - 5:8 (Shakir)​
Whether you believe in reading the Qur'an properly or in the false doctrine of abrogation, it's clear that aggressive warfare is forbidden. 



Mr.Fitnah said:


> The Quran reflects Mohammad
> 
> 33:21. Indeed in the Messenger of Allâh (Muhammad ) you have a good example to follow for him who hopes in (the Meeting with) Allâh and the Last Day and remembers Allâh much.


The example of Muhammad to be followed is contained within the Qur'an. The book itself is complete.

_And there is no animal that walks upon the earth nor a bird that flies with its two wings but (they are) genera like yourselves; *We have not neglected anything in the Book,* then to their Lord shall they be gathered._ - 6:38

_Shall I then seek a judge other than Allah? And He it is Who has revealed to you the Book (which is) made plain; and those whom We have given the Book know that it is revealed by your Lord with truth, therefore you should not be of the disputers._ - 6:114

_And We have revealed to you the Book with the truth, verifying what is before it of the Book and a guardian over it, therefore *judge between them by what Allah has revealed, and do not follow their low desires (to turn away) from the truth that has come to you;* for every one of you did We appoint a law and a way, and if Allah had pleased He would have made you (all) a single people, but that He might try you in what He gave you, therefore strive with one another to hasten to virtuous deeds; to Allah is your return, of all (of you), so He will let you know that in which you differed; *And that you should judge between them by what Allah has revealed, and do not follow their low desires, and be cautious of them, lest they seduce you from part of what Allah has revealed to you;* but if they turn back, then know that Allah desires to afflict them on account of some of their faults; and most surely many of the people are transgressors. *Is it then the judgment of ignorance that they desire? And who is better than Allah to judge for a people who are sure?*_ - 5:48-50 (all Shakir)​


Mr.Fitnah said:


> Only muslims pay zakah


Sorry; for Muslims mindful of what the Qur'an demands, scripture *always* takes precedence over tradition. Tradition that contradicts scripture is to be rejected.


----------



## Mr.Fitnah (Sep 1, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> Mr.Fitnah said:
> 
> 
> > Kalam said:
> ...


Another one.
http://www.usmessageboard.com/1476060-post653.html


----------



## Mr.Fitnah (Sep 1, 2009)

Kalam said:


> _What! will you not fight a people who broke their oaths and aimed at the expulsion of the Messenger, and they attacked you first; do you fear them? But Allah is most deserving that you should fear Him, if you are believers._ - 9:13 (Shakir)


I dont have to tell you how weak and pathetic  your attempt at rebuttal is. You know it , and you know I know it. It is so meaningless I was just going to let it blow away on it own lack of substance , then I recalled a quote , one that guides me .
*When I tell the truth, it is not for the sake of convincing those who do not know it, but for the sake of defending those that do." *
-William Blake
*9:13 is specific to time and place *


> _...and let not hatred of a people-- because they hindered you from the Sacred Masjid-- incite you to exceed the limits, and help one another in goodness and piety, and do not help one another in sin and aggression; and be careful of (your duty to) Allah; surely Allah is severe in requiting (evil)._ - 5:2 (Shakir)


*specific to time and place *


> _O you who believe! Be upright for Allah, bearers of witness with justice, and let not hatred of a people incite you not to act equitably; act equitably, that is nearer to piety, and he careful of (your duty to) Allah; surely Allah is Aware of what you do._ - 5:8 (Shakir)[/INDENT]


*Applying justice in Islam often requires killing .*





Mr.Fitnah said:


> The Quran reflects Mohammad





> 33:21. Indeed in the Messenger of Allâh (Muhammad ) you have a good example to follow for him who hopes in (the Meeting with) Allâh and the Last Day and remembers Allâh much.


2:193. And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allâh) and (all and every kind of) worship is for Allâh (Alone).[] But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against Az-Zâlimûn (the polytheists, and wrong-doers, etc.)
let there be no transgression except against Az-Zâlimûn 
let there be no transgression except against Az-Zâlimûn 
let there be no transgression except against Az-Zâlimûn 
let there be no transgression except against Az-Zâlimûn 

The Quran reflects Mohammad

33:21. Indeed in the Messenger of Allâh (Muhammad ) you have a good example to follow for him who hopes in (the Meeting with) Allâh and the Last Day and remembers Allâh much. 


'Abdullah bin 'Umar, may Allah be pleased with them, reported: 
Allah's Messenger said:* I have been commanded to fight against people till they testify that there is no god but Allah, and that Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah, perform the Prayer, and pay Zakah*. If they do that, their blood and property are guaranteed protection on my behalf except when justified by law, and their affairs rest with Allah. 
http://hadith.al-islam.com/bayan/dis...Lang=eng&ID=12

Abu Hurairah, may Allah be pleased with him, reported: 
The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said:* I have been commanded to fight against people until they testify that there is no god but Allah*, and he who professes it is guaranteed the protection of his property and life on my behalf except for a right warrant, and his affairs rest with Allah. 
http://hadith.al-islam.com/bayan/dis...Lang=eng&ID=11





> The example of Muhammad to be followed is contained within the Qur'an. The book itself is complete.


*patently false, so much so as I suspect it is a deliberate lie  and not a lie of ignorance *



Mr.Fitnah said:


> 'Abdullah bin 'Umar, may Allah be pleased with them, reported:
> Allah's Messenger said: I have been commanded to fight against people till they testify that there is no god but Allah, and that Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah, perform the Prayer, and pay Zakah. If they do that, their blood and property are guaranteed protection on my behalf except when justified by law, and their affairs rest with Allah.
> http://hadith.al-islam.com/bayan/dis...Lang=eng&ID=12
> 
> ...





> Sorry; for Muslims mindful of what the Qur'an demands, scripture *always* takes precedence over tradition. Tradition that contradicts scripture is to be rejected.



8:39. And* fight them until there is no more Fitnah* (disbelief and polytheism: i.e. worshipping others besides Allâh) and the religion (worship) will all be for Allâh Alone [in the whole of the world[]]. But if they cease (worshipping others besides Allâh), then certainly, Allâh is All-Seer of what they do
The Noble Quran : Surat 8

It is in perfect harmony 

9:5. Then when the Sacred Months (the Ist, 7th, 11th, and 12th months of the Islâmic calendar) have passed, then *kill the Mushrikûn *(see V.2:105) *wherever you find them, and capture them and besiege them, and prepare for them each and every ambush*. But if they repent and perform As-Salât (Iqâmat-as-Salât), and *give Zakât*, then leave their way free. Verily, Allâh is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.[]
The Noble Quran : Surat 9


----------



## John Lemmon (Sep 1, 2009)

kalam, you ever wipe your ass with your bare hand? How did it feel?


----------



## Kalam (Sep 1, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> I dont have to tell you how weak and pathetic  your attempt at rebuttal is. You know it , and you know I know it. It is so meaningless I was just going to let it blow away on it own lack of substance , then I recalled a quote , one that guides me .
> *When I tell the truth, it is not for the sake of convincing those who do not know it, but for the sake of defending those that do." *
> -William Blake


I'll go ahead and ignore this and the other non-substantive and meaningless parts of your post.



Mr.Fitnah said:


> *9:13 is specific to time and place *


Yet 9:5 and 9:29 aren't? How did you arrive at this conclusion? No passage would be included in the Qur'an if it wasn't intended to serve as a reminder or a guideline for the conduct of Muslims throughout all of eternity. By extension of your logic, the urges to fight can be waved away as products of a "specific time and place" as well, particularly those in the 8th sura, which pertain to the Battle of Badr.



Mr.Fitnah said:


> *specific to time and place *


Is this what you resort to when you're unable to accept the ramifications of your belief in abrogation? The 5th surah, one of the last to be revealed, specifically forbids what you believe the Islamic religion demands. 



Mr.Fitnah said:


> Applying justice in Islam often requires killing .


Non-answer. Killing is prescribed for those who kill and for those guilty of crimes that threaten the wellbeing of the entire Islamic community. Mere disbelief does not fall under this category. 



Mr.Fitnah said:


> patently false, so much so as I suspect it is a deliberate lie  and not a lie of ignorance


What? It's a matter of choosing to abide by the Qur'an rather than by oral traditions. How is it "false"? Did you not read the passages I posted? Most hadith collections aren't worth the paper they're written on - the Qur'an is the only final authority on all matters that relate to the Islamic religion.



Mr.Fitnah said:


> 8:39. And* fight them until there is no more Fitnah* (disbelief and polytheism: i.e. worshipping others besides Allâh) and the religion (worship) will all be for Allâh Alone [in the whole of the world[]]. But if they cease (worshipping others besides Allâh), then certainly, Allâh is All-Seer of what they do


I thought parts of the Qur'an only applied to "specific times and places." Surely, you're aware that the 8th surah pertains to the Battle of Badr? Or do you accept that all ayat contain advice or lessons that Muslims should be mindful of regardless of when they live?



Mr.Fitnah said:


> It is in perfect harmony


The Qur'an with ahadith? No, I'm afraid it most certainly is not. 



Mr.Fitnah said:


> 9:5. Then when the Sacred Months (the Ist, 7th, 11th, and 12th months of the Islâmic calendar) have passed, then *kill the Mushrikûn *(see V.2:105) *wherever you find them, and capture them and besiege them, and prepare for them each and every ambush*. But if they repent and perform As-Salât (Iqâmat-as-Salât), and *give Zakât*, then leave their way free. Verily, Allâh is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.


I thought the 9th surah was specific to a "certain time and place." Or was a "specific" verse randomly thrown into a chapter of non-specific verses? Please do explain your belief concerning this. Portions of your post that you merely cut and pasted from your previous post were, of course, omitted from this response.


----------



## Mr.Fitnah (Sep 1, 2009)

Kalam said:


> Mr.Fitnah said:
> 
> 
> > It is in perfect harmony
> ...


Yeah, who should be believed you or our lying eyes?
*8:39. And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and polytheism: i.e. worshipping others besides Allâh) and the religion (worship) will all be for Allâh Alone [in the whole of the world[]]. But if they cease (worshipping others besides Allâh), then certainly, Allâh is All-Seer of what they do
The Noble Quran : Surat 8
'Abdullah bin 'Umar, may Allah be pleased with them, reported: 
Allah's Messenger said: I have been commanded to fight against people till they testify that there is no god but Allah, and that Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah, perform the Prayer, and pay Zakah. If they do that, their blood and property are guaranteed protection on my behalf except when justified by law, and their affairs rest with Allah. 
http://hadith.al-islam.com/bayan/dis...Lang=eng&ID=12

Abu Hurairah, may Allah be pleased with him, reported: 
The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said: I have been commanded to fight against people until they testify that there is no god but Allah, and he who professes it is guaranteed the protection of his property and life on my behalf except for a right warrant, and his affairs rest with Allah. 
http://hadith.al-islam.com/bayan/dis...Lang=eng&ID=11

2:193. And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allâh) and (all and every kind of) worship is for Allâh (Alone).[] But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against Az-Zâlimûn (the polytheists, and wrong-doers, etc.)*




> 9:13 is specific to time and place


Specifically refers to Mohammad 

and let not hatred of a people-- because they hindered you from the Sacred Masjid--5:2

specific time and place and people



> Yet 9:5 and 9:29 aren't? How did you arrive at this conclusion?


9:5. Then when the Sacred Months (the Ist, 7th, 11th, and 12th months of the Islâmic calendar) have passed, then kill the Mushrikûn (see V.2:105) wherever you find them, and capture them and besiege them, and prepare for them each and every ambush. But if they repent and perform As-Salât (Iqâmat-as-Salât), and give Zakât, then leave their way free. Verily, Allâh is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.

9:29. Fight against those who (1) believe not in Allâh, (2) nor in the Last Day, (3) nor forbid that which has been forbidden by Allâh and His Messenger (4) and those who acknowledge not the religion of truth (i.e. Islâm) among the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians), until they pay the Jizyah[] with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

*open ended no mention of time and place present  tense*

8:39. And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and polytheism: i.e. worshipping others besides Allâh) and the religion (worship) will all be for Allâh Alone [in the whole of the world[]]. But if they cease (worshipping others besides Allâh), then certainly, Allâh is All-Seer of what they do
The Noble Quran : Surat 8

*open ended for  all time until only Islam exists*


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## Mr.Fitnah (Sep 1, 2009)

Many muslims like to say " Islam forbids the killing of innocent people"
Please provide Islamic scripture to prove unequivocally non muslims are innocent.


----------



## Kalam (Sep 1, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> Yeah, who should be believed you or our lying eyes?


Read both yourself. We'll use "magic" as one example of the incongruity:

Qur'an:
_*And the evildoers say: You follow but a man bewitched!*_ - 25:8​
Ahadith:
_Magic was worked on the Prophet so that he began to fancy that he was doing a thing which he was not actually doing._ - B. 4:54:490​


Mr.Fitnah said:


> Specifically refers to Mohammad


And you'd have Muslims believe that we aren't to use this as an example of how to conduct ourselves? That's positively absurd. That is the authentic sunnah of the Messenger &#65018; that we're required to follow. 



Mr.Fitnah said:


> and let not hatred of a people-- because they hindered you from the Sacred Masjid--5:2
> 
> specific time and place and people


Again, we're supposed to take nothing away from this? As if mentioning it once wasn't enough, the same commandment is repeated again in 5:8 with no reference to a "specific time and place."



Mr.Fitnah said:


> open ended no mention of time and place present  tense
> 
> open ended for  all time until only Islam exists


A bit like 5:8, then. 

Your illogic is coming back to bite you.


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## Mr.Fitnah (Sep 1, 2009)

Kalam said:


> Mr.Fitnah said:
> 
> 
> > Yeah, who should be believed you or our lying eyes?
> ...


Im just going to save this as possibly the most incoherent mess of gibberish ever  put up in the interweb


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## Kalam (Sep 1, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> Kalam said:
> 
> 
> > Mr.Fitnah said:
> ...




That's some Grade-A debate right there.

Did you need help with some of the bigger words?
Dictionary - Yahoo! Kids


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## Mr.Fitnah (Sep 1, 2009)

This is not a debate thread ,
This is a thread to prove unequivocally none muslims are innocent according to Islamic scripture.
You have failed to do so.
Have a nice day.


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## AllieBaba (Sep 1, 2009)

I avoid this thread for a reason.


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## Mr.Fitnah (Sep 1, 2009)

AllieBaba said:


> I avoid this thread for a reason.


Me too. I drop into see if there are any new innovations.


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## Kalam (Sep 1, 2009)

Flatly insulting others' arguments without explaining specifically why they're incorrect seems to be a popular "tactic" among islamophobes here. I guess you wouldn't be irrationally prejudiced in the first place if you had any grasp of logic. 

Are you going to attempt to address my points, or can we chalk this one up as another testament to your inability to debate?


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## Mr.Fitnah (Sep 1, 2009)

Many muslims like to say " Islam forbids the killing of innocent people"
Please provide Islamic scripture to prove unequivocally non muslims are innocent.


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## Kalam (Sep 1, 2009)

AllieBaba said:


> I avoid this thread for a reason.



I can see why. You posting here would raise the bar just out of Fitnuts' reach.


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## Kalam (Sep 1, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> Many muslims like to say " Islam forbids the killing of innocent people"
> Please provide Islamic scripture to prove unequivocally non muslims are innocent.



I already did. You rejected it because it wasn't your preferred translation. You rejected my offer to post the same scripture using a translation that is almost universally accepted. You fail.


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## Mr.Fitnah (Sep 1, 2009)

Kalam said:


> Mr.Fitnah said:
> 
> 
> > Many muslims like to say " Islam forbids the killing of innocent people"
> ...



Really ? I would say you have made a case that the mutz are  better than most muslims given certain circumstance, but  the mutz aren't really believers .
But nothing close to unequivocal proof non muslims are innocent.


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## Mr.Fitnah (Sep 1, 2009)

Many muslims like to say " Islam forbids the killing of innocent people"
Please provide Islamic scripture to prove unequivocally non muslims are innocent.


----------



## Kalam (Sep 1, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> Really ? I would say you have made a case that the mutz are  better than most muslims given certain circumstance, but  the mutz aren't really believers .


I'm not sure how you arrived at that conclusion. 


I bear witness that there's no god but Allah (SWT) and that Muhammad &#65018; is His messenger.
I pray.
I happily give up my time and money for the sake of the poor.
I'm fasting.
I'll complete the hajj before I die, in sha' Allah.

I have no reason to believe that I differ from most of those who consider themselves Mu'tazilites in these respects. 



Mr.Fitnah said:


> But nothing close to unequivocal proof non muslims are innocent.


The Qur'an is open to interpretation, and you've clearly convinced yourself that yours is correct to the exclusion of all others. Because it's open to interpretation, nothing will be "unequivocal."


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## AllieBaba (Sep 1, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> Many muslims like to say " Islam forbids the killing of innocent people"
> Please provide Islamic scripture to prove unequivocally non muslims are innocent.



Does that include the non-muslim children muslims don't mind slaughtering?
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/article641525.ece


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## AllieBaba (Sep 1, 2009)

Oh, I'm sorry; that was actually a MUSLIM child they didn't mind slaughtering.


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## Mr.Fitnah (Sep 1, 2009)

Kalam said:


> Mr.Fitnah said:
> 
> 
> > But nothing close to unequivocal proof non muslims are innocent.
> ...


Thank you for your concession.


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## Mr.Fitnah (Sep 1, 2009)

Many muslims like to say " Islam forbids the killing of innocent people"
Please provide Islamic scripture to prove unequivocally non muslims are innocent.


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## Kalam (Sep 2, 2009)

AllieBaba said:


> Oh, I'm sorry; that was actually a MUSLIM child they didn't mind slaughtering.



I'm sure you realize that using the actions of some Muslims to draw conclusions about the entire religion is illogical.


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## Kalam (Sep 2, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> Kalam said:
> 
> 
> > Mr.Fitnah said:
> ...



It was a statement of fact. If you were looking for unequivocal proof that one interpretation is correct, there was no point in starting this thread in the first place.


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## AllieBaba (Sep 2, 2009)

Kalam said:


> AllieBaba said:
> 
> 
> > Oh, I'm sorry; that was actually a MUSLIM child they didn't mind slaughtering.
> ...



You're the one who said to show an example of innocent non-muslims.

I did.


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## AllieBaba (Sep 2, 2009)

Oh wait, except they weren't non-muslims. They were just innocent. Apparently it makes no difference.


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## Kalam (Sep 2, 2009)

Darfur:

JEM - Justice and Equality Movement
Abdelwahid al-Nur (Leader, Sudanese Liberation Movement) on the secular state


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## Kalam (Sep 2, 2009)

AllieBaba said:


> Kalam said:
> 
> 
> > AllieBaba said:
> ...


I believe you're mistaken. You quoted Fitnuts' post, not mine.


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## AllieBaba (Sep 2, 2009)

Kindly forgive. Direct my comments towards that poster then.


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## AllieBaba (Sep 2, 2009)

"Fitnuts". How funny is that? Good job.


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## Kalam (Sep 2, 2009)

AllieBaba said:


> Kindly forgive. Direct my comments towards that poster then.



Of course. 

I think you'll find that he's already quite opposed to Islam.


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## Kalam (Sep 2, 2009)

AllieBaba said:


> "Fitnuts". How funny is that? Good job.



I detect sarcasm.


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## Mr.Fitnah (Sep 2, 2009)

Many muslims like to say " Islam forbids the killing of innocent people"
Please provide Islamic scripture to prove unequivocally non muslims are innocent.


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## John Lemmon (Sep 2, 2009)

All muslims are rapists and murderers, it says so in the coran.


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## Liability (Sep 2, 2009)

Kalam said:


> * * * *
> The Qur'an is open to interpretation, and you've clearly convinced yourself that yours is correct to the exclusion of all others. Because it's open to interpretation, nothing will be "unequivocal."



Yes.  It certainly is.  And because it is, *your* interpretation is no more likely to be good or true or valid or useful than the interpretation of almost anybody else who interprets it in a different way, provided that he is being honest in his efforts.


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## JenT (Sep 2, 2009)

John Lemmon said:


> All muslims are rapists and murderers, it says so in the coran.









If that was true I'd be walking dead right now.


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## Mr.Fitnah (Sep 2, 2009)

Liability said:


> Kalam said:
> 
> 
> > * * * *
> ...


The problem with his interpretation is it does not explain  the actions of self professed muslims who are  committing acts  that the west has classified as "terrorism" .
These "terrorist" point to the Quran as justification for their actions .
His interpretation leaves us with an Islam comprised of  meaningless acts  of submission without the conquest  component that is part and parcel of Islam.


Noble Quran 2:190 Footnote: Jihad is holy fighting in Allahs Cause with full force of numbers and weaponry. It is given the utmost importance in Islam and is one of its pillars. By Jihad Islam is established, Allahs Word is made superior (which means only Allah has the right to be worshiped), and Islam is propagated. By abandoning Jihad Islam is destroyed and Muslims fall into an inferior position; their honor is lost, their lands are stolen, their rule and authority vanish. Jihad is an obligatory duty in Islam on every Muslim. He who tries to escape from this duty, or does not fulfill this duty, dies as a hypocrite.


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## mystic (Sep 2, 2009)

Kalam said:


> AllieBaba said:
> 
> 
> > Oh, I'm sorry; that was actually a MUSLIM child they didn't mind slaughtering.
> ...



Awww......don't rain on his parade like that. He's trying so hard.


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## mystic (Sep 2, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> Liability said:
> 
> 
> > Kalam said:
> ...



Hi Mr. Fitnah! 

I was reading Brigitte Gabriel's "They Must Be Stopped" a couple nights ago. I felt like I was channeling you.  Don't worry, I didn't actually _buy_ the horrid thing. It was a library book. Have you read either of her books? I was hoping to find something of substance that I could sink my teeth into...but really, her propaganda is so far off the mark it's not even funny. It made her look extremely ignorant. The thing is....I don't think she really believes half the stuff she says, she's just riding the Bash Islam gravy train all the way to the bank. Her first book was, "Why They Hate". I mean...c'mon. 
Even Nonie Darwish has more class then that. At least a lot of Nonie's complaints were more valid, although she confused culture with Islam a lot of the time.
At least with you, I think you really _believe_ what you're saying.



> Noble Quran 2:190 Footnote: Jihad is holy fighting in Allahs Cause with full force of numbers and weaponry. It is given the utmost importance in Islam and is one of its pillars.



That's a pretty crappy footnote. Considering there is 5 pillars and Jihad is not one of them. Neither the greater, nor the lesser.


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## Liability (Sep 2, 2009)

mystic said:


> * * * *
> That's a pretty crappy footnote. Considering there is 5 pillars and Jihad is not one of them. Neither the greater, nor the lesser.



Shorthand version of a response worth considering:

From Icky Wiki:



> Jihad
> Main articles: Jihad and Islamic military jurisprudence
> Jihad means "to strive or struggle" (in the way of God) and *is considered the "Sixth Pillar of Islam" by a minority of Sunni Muslim authorities*.[58] Jihad, in its broadest sense, is classically defined as "exerting one's utmost power, efforts, endeavors, or ability in contending with an object of disapprobation." Depending on the object being a visible enemy, the devil, and aspects of one's own self, different categories of Jihad are defined.[59] Jihad, when used without any qualifier, is understood in its military aspect.[60][61]


 Islam - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## Sunni Man (Sep 2, 2009)

There are only 5 pillars of Islam. Period

I have NEVER heard any muslim or Imam in any mosque state that there is a 6th


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## Liability (Sep 2, 2009)

Sunni Man said:


> There are only 5 pillars of Islam. Period
> 
> I have NEVER heard any muslim or Imam in any mosque state that there is a 6th



What YOU have or have not heard is hardly a significant debating point.

Open your mind and your eyes:

http://www.doroquez.com/arts/documents/rsoc01.pdf


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## mystic (Sep 2, 2009)

Liability said:


> mystic said:
> 
> 
> > * * * *
> ...



Sorry but there's only 5 pillars. Apparently the Muslim world doesn't refer to "Icky Wiki" for their jurisprudence.  

Besides....it says a _minority_. A minority of people fuck goats too. I don't happen to be one of them. You may now declare your innocence.


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## Liability (Sep 2, 2009)

mystic said:


> Liability said:
> 
> 
> > mystic said:
> ...



The Qur'an does not specifically state that there are ANY "pillars."  So if you admit of (acknowledge) only FIVE of them, that's fine.  But since the Qur'an doesn't explicitly mention ANY pillars, the number "five" is yet another mere "interpretation" and the MINORITY is as entitled to find a SIXTH pillar as your majority is to find only FIVE.

I don't care what animals you subjugate to your perverse whims.  Keep that crap to yourself, please.


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## Sunni Man (Sep 2, 2009)

Liability said:


> mystic said:
> 
> 
> > Liability said:
> ...


You are wrong and misinformed as usual Liability

*The concept of five pillars is taken from the Hadith collections*, notably those of Sahih Al-Bukhari and Sahih Muslim. 

Index of /five_pillars/overview


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## Mr.Fitnah (Sep 2, 2009)

mystic said:


> Liability said:
> 
> 
> > mystic said:
> ...



Noble Quran 2:190 Footnote: Jihad is holy fighting in Allahs Cause with full force of numbers and weaponry. It is given the utmost importance in Islam and is one of its pillars. By Jihad Islam is established, Allahs Word is made superior (which means only Allah has the right to be worshiped), and Islam is propagated. By abandoning Jihad Islam is destroyed and Muslims fall into an inferior position; their honor is lost, their lands are stolen, their rule and authority vanish. Jihad is an obligatory duty in Islam on every Muslim. He who tries to escape from this duty, or does not fulfill this duty, dies as a hypocrite.


The passage itself can be found in two places. It is on page 54 of the Noble Quran 
translation by Muhammad Khan and distributed by King Fahd Complex for the Printing of the Holy QuranThe Custodian of the Two Holy Mosques. It is a footnote to Quran 2.190 and is designed to explain Jihad according to Allah as this is the first time the word is used. 


And it can be found on page 580 of the Islamic University of Medinas translation of Sahih al-Bukharis Hadith. There it opens Bukharis Book of Jihad. 


 In both cases, the Islamic scholars are condensing Allahs and Muhammads teachings on Jihad to a single paragraph.


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## Mr.Fitnah (Sep 2, 2009)

Shahadah (declaration of faith)
Salah (ritual prayer)
Zakah (charity)
*Sawm (fasting during Ramadan)*
Hajj (pilgrimage to Mecca)
These five practices are essential to Sunni Islam.

Ruling on breaking one&#8217;s fast in order to have strength for jihad
Is it permissible for the mujaahideen to break their fast in Ramadaan? Please note that they are in their own country and are not travelling.

Praise be to Allaah.  
*Yes, it is permissible for the mujaahideen to break their fast in Ramadaan,* so that they will have strength for jihad, even if they are in their own country, for fasting weakens their ability to fight and deal with the enemy. 
Islam Question and Answer - Ruling on breaking oneâ&#8364;&#8482;s fast in order to have strength for jihad

*Clearly jihad is more impotent than  at least one of Islams pillars .
So It is one of them.*

A few Muslims, mainly some Kharijite groups in *ancient times*[1] [2] and members of Islamic Jihad recently,[3] have taught that jihad, or personal struggle, should be considered the sixth pillar of Islam. In this context, Jihad is viewed as external war against those perceived to be enemies of Islam.[4]

Sixth Pillar of Islam - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Seven Pillars (Ismaili)
Wal&#257;yah - Guardianship
&#7788;awhid - Oneness of God
&#7778;al&#257;t - Prayers
Zak&#257;h - Purifying religious dues
&#7778;awm - Fasting during Ramadan
Hajj - Pilgrimage to Mecca
Jihad - Struggle


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## Liability (Sep 2, 2009)

Sunni Man said:


> Liability said:
> 
> 
> > mystic said:
> ...




I have already demonstrated, as usual, that I was quite correct.

Your spin is useless, Sunni Failure.

You are an epic Islamist Fail.

But I repeat myself.


----------



## THE LIGHT (Sep 3, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> Many muslims like to say " Islam forbids the killing of innocent people"
> Please provide Islamic scripture to prove unequivocally non muslims are innocent.


 

Bump because it is an excelent question.

Wonder when it will get answered. Oh yeah, it won't. Because we all know what the answer is.


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## John Lemmon (Sep 3, 2009)

Islam forbids soap.


----------



## Kalam (Sep 3, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> The problem with his interpretation is it does not explain  the actions of self professed muslims who are  committing acts  that the west has classified as "terrorism" .


You're incorrectly assuming that a religious explanation must exist for these actions. The roots of so-called Islamic radicalism are more political in nature than they are religious. Because dissatisfaction with corrupt regimes in the Arab world is fairly widespread, these regimes tend to suppress opposition by limiting free speech. One of the few things they typically won't limit is Islamic religious freedom, so opposition movements are often pseudo-religious in nature. I believe it was Fareed Zakaria who first put forth this hypothesis. 

Groups as batshit insane as al-Qaeda do not represent a significant number of Muslims, not even "radical" Muslims. Al-Qaeda regularly condemns other ostensibly radical groups such as the Muslim Brotherhood (for denouncing violence and participating in elections) and Hamas (for participating in elections.)



Mr.Fitnah said:


> These "terrorist" point to the Quran as justification for their actions.


In this respect they're similar to LRA fighters who claim to be establishing a society based on the ten commandments. Both operate in third-world areas that tend to be poorer and therefore more prone to high levels of religiosity, so they know they'll rally at least some support by appealing to the religious beliefs of their fellows. 



Mr.Fitnah said:


> His interpretation leaves us with an Islam comprised of  meaningless acts  of submission without the conquest  component that is part and parcel of Islam.


There's nothing meaningless about true Islam.


----------



## Kalam (Sep 3, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> Seven Pillars (Ismaili)
> Wal&#257;yah - Guardianship
> &#7788;awhid - Oneness of God
> &#7778;al&#257;t - Prayers
> ...



You're aware that Ismailis account for less than three percent of all Muslims, right?


----------



## Liability (Sep 3, 2009)

Kalam said:


> Mr.Fitnah said:
> 
> 
> > The problem with his interpretation is it does not explain  the actions of self professed muslims who are  committing acts  that the west has classified as "terrorism" .
> ...



Islamic radicalism -- and the depravity inflicted on so many people in the name of "Islam" -- may indeed have roots in politics, but it is FOUNDED UPON and invokes the name of Islam and cites, so very often, as moral authority for those deeds, the Qua'ran.

You have a problem and you are unwiling to see it, admit it or acknowledge it.

The problem is that the "interpretations" of the Qur'an INVITE the USE of ISLAM as a political tool by the Islamists.

_*Your*_ view of what "true" Islam "is" may be a lot less hostile and evil.  But there are very many Muslims who harbor a much darker view of what Islam means and what it requires or authorizes.  And you have no greater claim to being the person in the right about the "meaning" of Quar'anic scripture than those who invoke it to engage in their barbarity.


----------



## Mr.Fitnah (Sep 3, 2009)

Islam is political, even your creepy little Mutazili  cult.

Zamakhshari, Abu al-Qasim Mahmud ibn Umar
(d. 1144 )

Mutazili theologian, Arabic philologist, and Quran exegete of Persian origin. His Quran commentary, Al-kashshaf an haqaiq al-tanzil, exhibits his Mutazili dogmas with little attention to tradition and elaborates on lexical, grammatical, and rhetorical elements while interpreting the Quran and highlighting its miraculous inimitability. His Al-mufassal is an exhaustive exposition of Arabic grammar, and his Asas al-balagha is a dictionary of Arabic. His literary works include Maqamat, containing moralizing discourses; his diwan of poems; and Al-mustaqsa fi-l-amthal, a popular collection of proverbs.

Zamakhshari, Abu al-Qasim Mahmud ibn Umar - Oxford Islamic Studies Online

Sometimes, the requirements for jizyah could be interpreted severely. In Tafsir al-kashshaf, the Mutazilah exegete al-Zamakhshari (d. 1144) assumes that the intent of the Quranic commandment was to highlight the subordinate status of the dhimmi in Muslim society. Therefore, the jizyah should be exacted as a form of humiliation. The non-Muslim should come to pay the tax walking, not riding. When he pays, he is made to stand, while the tax collector sits. The collector should seize him by the scruff of the neck, shake him, and say, &#8220;Pay the jizyah!&#8221;, cuffing him on the back of the head once the tax has been paid. A similarly hard line is taken by the modern commentator and political activist Sayyid Qutb (d. 1966) in his widely read commentary, Fi ?ilal al-Qur?an. This prominent ideologist of the Muslim Brotherhood is defiantly triumphalist, claiming that jizyah amounts to a punishment for polytheism (especially for Christians) and is required before peaceful relations can be established between Muslims and the &#8220;People of the Book.&#8221; Seeing shari?ah (the divine law) as a sort of positive law, Qu?b intimates that jizyah is a recompense or protection, not from military service or external enemies, but from jihad. If it is not paid as part of a peace agreement, the Islamic state owes no obligation to non-Muslims, whether at home or abroad.

Log In - Oxford Islamic Studies Online

Paying Jizyah is a Sign of Kufr and Disgrace

Tafsir.com Tafsir Ibn Kathir


----------



## Mr.Fitnah (Sep 3, 2009)

Kalam said:


> There's nothing meaningless about true Islam.


Everything about Mohammad's Islam is meaningless.


----------



## Kalam (Sep 3, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> Islam is political,


I've not denied this. Islam is a way of life, not merely a set of personal beliefs. 



Mr.Fitnah said:


> even your creepy little Mutazili  cult.




I never claimed that we've been guilt-free throughout our entire existence. Most forms of Islam were corrupted and used for political ends at some point in history; Mu'tazili Islam is no exception.

Mihna - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


----------



## Mr.Fitnah (Sep 3, 2009)

Kalam said:


> Mr.Fitnah said:
> 
> 
> > Islam is political,
> ...


All forms of Mohammed's Islam are corrupt.
Islam has always been political from its inception.


----------



## Kalam (Sep 3, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> All forms of Mohammed's Islam are corrupt.


Believe what you want.



Mr.Fitnah said:


> Islam has always been political from its inception.


Islam is "political" in the sense that it's more than a private religious affair. When I say "political ends," I mean non-Islamic political ends.


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## Mr.Fitnah (Sep 3, 2009)

Kalam said:


> Mr.Fitnah said:
> 
> 
> > All forms of Mohammed's Islam are corrupt.
> ...


Such as?


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## Kalam (Sep 3, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> Kalam said:
> 
> 
> > Mr.Fitnah said:
> ...



Ideological "inquisitions," the propping up of corrupt dictatorships, the slaughter of other innocent Muslims, etc.


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## Mr.Fitnah (Sep 3, 2009)

Kalam said:


> Mr.Fitnah said:
> 
> 
> > Kalam said:
> ...


Specifics please
.Time, place, statements of goals, that prove the actions to be unislamic.


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## Mr.Fitnah (Sep 3, 2009)

As you know, since their are  other interpretations than yours, your claim is already on shaky ground ,so I wouldnt work to hard on your post.


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## Kalam (Sep 4, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> Specifics please
> .Time, place, statements of goals, that prove the actions to be unislamic.



The Mihna, 833 CE, Abbasid Caliphate - "Al-Ma'mun introduced the mihna with the intension to centralize religious power in the caliphal institution and test the loyalty of his subjects." - Al-Ma'mun - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This exacerbated ideological divisions by punishing scholars who favored literalist interpretations. This was done in blatant contradiction of the Qur'an, which forbids sectarian strife:

_And hold fast by the covenant of Allah all together and be not disunited. And remember Allahs favour to you when you were enemies, then He united your hearts so by His favour you became brethren. And you were on the brink of a pit of fire, then He saved you from it. Thus Allah makes clear to you His messages that you may be guided._ - 3:103​
Misinterpreters should have been taught the error of their ways non-violently. We should avoid being like them, but shouldn't coerce them into subscribing to our beliefs:

_And from among you there should be a party who invite to good and enjoin the right and forbid the wrong. And these are they who are successful. And be not like those who became divided and disagreed after clear arguments had come to them. And for them is a grievous chastisement._ - 3:104-105​

There are too many examples of corrupt autocracies in the Islamic world for us to concern ourselves with specifics. Pick any so-called "Islamic" nation and in all likelihood you'll find that it's un-Qur'anic in nature. In the absence of the Messenger &#65018;, the only appropriate form of governance is that which involves all believers engaging in mutual consultation:

_So whatever you are given is but a provision of this worlds life, and that which Allah has is better and more lasting for those who believe and rely on their Lord; and those who shun the great sins and indecencies, and whenever they are angry they forgive; and those who respond to their Lord and keep up prayer, and whose affairs are (decided) by counsel ("shura") among themselves, and who spend out of what We have given them; and those who, when great wrong afflicts them, defend themselves._ - 42:36-29​
The most obvious example of innocent Muslims being slaughtered by other Muslims is the current conflict in Darfur. The war in this case began largely because of ethnic discrimination (on the part of the Sudanese government, which is dominated by Arabic-speaking Blacks), something that has no place in Islam. The ummah is supposed to be a single, unified community that pays no regard to racial and ethnic differences:

_O mankind, surely We have created you from a male and a female, and made you tribes and families that you may know each other. Surely the noblest of you with Allah is the most dutiful of you. Surely Allah is Knowing, Aware._ - 49:13

_And (all) people are but a single nation, then they disagree. And had not a word already gone forth from thy Lord, the matter would have certainly been decided between them in respect of that wherein they disagree._ - 10:19​


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## Kalam (Sep 4, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> As you know, since their are  other interpretations than yours, your claim is already on shaky ground ,so I wouldnt work to hard on your post.



The backbone of my posts is sitting directly in front of me. It's a matter of knowing where to find relevant passages.


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## John Lemmon (Sep 4, 2009)

Islam forbids intelligence and personal grooming.


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## Liability (Sep 4, 2009)

Kalam said:


> Mr.Fitnah said:
> 
> 
> > As you know, since their are  other interpretations than yours, your claim is already on shaky ground ,so I wouldnt work to hard on your post.
> ...



All of which are subject to YOUR interpretation.


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## Mr.Fitnah (Sep 4, 2009)

Kalam said:


> Mr.Fitnah said:
> 
> 
> > Specifics please
> ...


Much better post,
 A follower of the Mutazili school  was  the one who started the problem  and  persecuted traditionalist, as you still do today.
In any case seems there are degree  by which one  pases through to right wrongs before one reaches the point of murder  , the New Mu'tazili  doctrine of dealing with munkar is pragmatic, as it takes into account how much it harms the Islamic community, yet* both  approaches  can be seen as Islam .*

Commanding the Right & Forbidding the Wrong


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## Mr.Fitnah (Sep 4, 2009)

Kalam said:


> There are too many examples of corrupt autocracies in the Islamic world for us to concern ourselves with specifics. Pick any so-called "Islamic" nation and in all likelihood you'll find that it's un-Qur'anic in nature. In the absence of the Messenger &#65018;, the only appropriate form of governance is that which involves all believers engaging in mutual consultation:
> 
> _So whatever you are given is but a provision of this worlds life, and that which Allah has is better and more lasting for those who believe and rely on their Lord; and those who shun the great sins and indecencies, and whenever they are angry they forgive; and those who respond to their Lord and keep up prayer, and whose affairs are (decided) by counsel ("shura") among themselves, and who spend out of what We have given them; and those who, when great wrong afflicts them, defend themselves._ - 42:36-29​
> The most obvious example of innocent Muslims being slaughtered by other Muslims is the current conflict in Darfur. The war in this case began largely because of ethnic discrimination (on the part of the Sudanese government, which is dominated by Arabic-speaking Blacks), something that has no place in Islam. The ummah is supposed to be a single, unified community that pays no regard to racial and ethnic differences:
> ...


There are some many rules  in Islam that these "innocent people" could be breaking it is impossible to say they are "innocent muslims" .The Janjaweed would have to explain  there jihad, It certainly seems Islamic.Terrorizing people to establish  and Islamic state .


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## Kalam (Sep 4, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> There are some many rules  in Islam that these "innocent people" could be breaking it is impossible to say they are "innocent muslims".


The Janjaweed and their Sudanese backers wouldn't know; I doubt they ask their victims questions about their beliefs and practices before raping and killing them. Incidentally, their rape is un-Islamic:

_Say to the believing men that they lower their gaze and restrain their sexual passions. That is purer for them. Surely Allah is Aware of what they do. _- 24:30

_And let those who cannot find a match keep chaste, until Allah makes them free from want out of His grace. And those of your slaves who ask for a writing (of freedom), give them the writing, if you know any good in them, and give them of the wealth of Allah which He has given you. And compel not your slave-girls to prostitution when they desire to keep chaste, in order to seek the frail goods of this worlds life. And whoever compels them, then surely after their compulsion Allah is Forgiving, Merciful (toward the victims.)_ - 24:33​



Mr.Fitnah said:


> The Janjaweed would have to explain  there jihad, It certainly seems Islamic.Terrorizing people to establish  and Islamic state .



The Janjaweed are interested in land and resources, not in religion or politics. The government backs them because they have a common enemy. It's one of the rebel groups, led by Khalil Ibrahim, that seeks to establish an Islamic state:

Sudanjem.com » Jem

Another, led by Abdul Wahid al-Nur, seems to support a secular state.

Video of Ibrahim:
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YgCLWEcpwGA]YouTube - I Support Peaceful Relations with Israel[/ame]


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## Kalam (Sep 4, 2009)

Liability said:


> Kalam said:
> 
> 
> > Mr.Fitnah said:
> ...


True, but mine consists of drawing fairly simple conclusions based on what's written in the Qur'an.


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## Liability (Sep 4, 2009)

Kalam said:


> Liability said:
> 
> 
> > Kalam said:
> ...



But which require you to ignore or contradict other things written in the Qur'an.


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## Kalam (Sep 4, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> Much better post,
> A follower of the Mutazili school  was  the one who started the problem  and  persecuted traditionalist, as you still do today.


True, but the persecution was done in an attempt to consolidate power, not in an attempt to forcibly spread Mu'tazili beliefs. Even if we wanted to persecute traditionalists today, we wouldn't be able to. We're outnumbered for the time being. 



Mr.Fitnah said:


> In any case seems there are degree  by which one  pases through to right wrongs before one reaches the point of murder  , the New Mu'tazili  doctrine of dealing with munkar is pragmatic, as it takes into account how much it harms the Islamic community, yet* both  approaches  can be seen as Islam .*
> 
> Commanding the Right & Forbidding the Wrong


Perhaps, but one is based on the Qur'an and the other on aspects of Shafi'i jurisprudence that seemingly lack a Qur'anic basis.


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## Kalam (Sep 4, 2009)

Liability said:


> Kalam said:
> 
> 
> > Liability said:
> ...



What are some examples of things in the Qur'an that I ignore or contradict? Be careful before copying and pasting verses, and read the passages in their proper context.


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## Mr.Fitnah (Sep 4, 2009)

Kalam said:


> Liability said:
> 
> 
> > Kalam said:
> ...



Based on some of what is written in the Quran.


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## Liability (Sep 4, 2009)

Kalam said:


> Liability said:
> 
> 
> > Kalam said:
> ...



What value do you see in endlessly looping and repeating discussions we've already had?

Let's make it simpler.

Either come right out and STATE that in your esteemed opinion there is nothing contradictory in *any* of the passages of the Qur'an -- OR -- admit that some of the passages DO contradict other passages.

Let's make THAT the point of departure to help focus this little chat.

I SEEM to recall (although I might have you confused with somebody else, I guess) that YOU have taken the position that there is no valid doctrine of "abrogation regarding "Qur'anic interpretation   

If it wasn't you, I apologize in advance.  If it was you, then aren't you one of the ones who maintains that there are no contradictions in any of the passages of the Qur'an?


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## Kalam (Sep 4, 2009)

Liability said:


> What value do you see in endlessly looping and repeating discussions we've already had?
> 
> Let's make it simpler.
> 
> ...



I've repeatedly stated that abrogation is a false doctrine and that the Qur'an was meant to be interpreted in such a way that its message is consistent. I don't understand how any sincere Muslim can believe that the Qur'an contains corrected errors and internal contradictions.


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## Liability (Sep 4, 2009)

Kalam said:


> Liability said:
> 
> 
> > * * * *
> ...


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## Kalam (Sep 4, 2009)

Liability said:


> Then you ARE of the belief/opinion that *no* passages of the Qur'an are at all contradictory with *any* other passages of the Qur'an?
> 
> Is that a fair re-statement of your belief?



Go ahead and post whatever it is you're going to post.


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## John Lemmon (Sep 4, 2009)

kalam needs the koran to tell him how to think. Dude, what would you do if the koran didn't exist? You'd be more confused than an arab in a pack of camels in heat.


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## Mr.Fitnah (Sep 4, 2009)

Kalam said:


> Liability said:
> 
> 
> > What value do you see in endlessly looping and repeating discussions we've already had?
> ...



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naskh_(tafsir)


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## Liability (Sep 4, 2009)

Kalam said:


> Liability said:
> 
> 
> > Then you ARE of the belief/opinion that *no* passages of the Qur'an are at all contradictory with *any* other passages of the Qur'an?
> ...



Oh, don't worry.  When it suits my purpose, I will.

But I was endeavoring to be fair in setting up the discussion.

Naturally, you are inclined NOT to get too pinned down ahead of time.

It's understandable.

Nevertheless, if we are going to discuss the numerous and undeniable contradictions contained within the Qur'an, it makes sense to give you some advanced opportunity to bind yourself or give yourself a little wiggle room.  Your choice.  So before we proceed, rather than obviously and ponderously ducking the question, why not man up and just forthrightly ANSWER it?

*Do no passages of the Qur'an, in your view, contradict other passages of the Qur'an?*


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## Mr.Fitnah (Sep 4, 2009)

Liability said:


> Kalam said:
> 
> 
> > Liability said:
> ...


starting @ 5:20


[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eWf-3cmgJZE&feature=related]YouTube - Close Encounters Of The Third Kind part 2/14[/ame]


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## Liability (Sep 4, 2009)

No reply from Kalam?  Damn.  I hadn't  even called him Malarky today.   

Anyway, since he doesn't wish to get "pinned down' (BWUCK BWUCK BWUUUUCK!) I'll just humor him by starting it:



> Can Allah be seen and did Muhammad see his Lord? Yes [S. 53:1-18, 81:15-29], No [6:102-103, 42:51].
> 
> Can Angels Cause the Death of People? The Qur'an attacks those who worship anyone besides God (e.g. angels or prophets) because those can neither create, nor give life, nor cause anyone to die. Yet, the Qur'an explicitly states that one angel or several angels are causing certain people to die [Sura 4:97, 16:28, 32, 32:11].
> 
> ...


Contradictions / Difficulties in the Qur'an *NOTE: ALL of the above examples are quoted and excerpted from and found at the linked cite.*

Even HOW Allah sent the Qur'an down to man is a matter of self-contradiction *within* the Qur'an: Qur'an Contradiction: The descent of the Quran -- piecemeal or all at once?


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## Mr.Fitnah (Sep 4, 2009)

Liability said:


> No reply from Kalam?  Damn.  I hadn't  even called him Malarky today.
> 
> Anyway, since he doesn't wish to get "pinned down' (BWUCK BWUCK BWUUUUCK!) I'll just humor him by starting it:
> 
> ...



"kalam's" Islam is hung on ignoring naskh http://www.usmessageboard.com/1359548-post196.html


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## Kalam (Sep 4, 2009)

Liability said:


> *Do no passages of the Qur'an, in your view, contradict other passages of the Qur'an?*



Not as I understand it, no. Are you going to post something or not?


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## Mr.Fitnah (Sep 4, 2009)

Contradictions and abrogation

2:240. And those of you who die and leave behind wives should bequeath for their wives a year's maintenance and residence without turning them out, but if they (wives) leave, there is no sin on you for that which they do of themselves, provided it is honourable (e.g. lawful marriage). And Allâh is All-Mighty, All-Wise. [The order of this Verse has been cancelled (abrogated) by Verse 4:12].
The Noble Quran : Surat 2

2:234. And those of you who die and leave wives behind them, they (the wives) shall wait (as regards their marriage) for four months and ten days, then when they have fulfilled their term, there is no sin on you if they (the wives) dispose of themselves in a just and honourable manner (i.e. they can marry). And Allâh is Well-Acquainted with what you do.

4:12. In that which your wives leave, your share is a half if they have no child; but if they leave a child, you get a fourth of that which they leave after payment of legacies that they may have bequeathed or debts. In that which you leave, their (your wives) share is a fourth if you leave no child; but if you leave a child, they get an eighth of that which you leave after payment of legacies that you may have bequeathed or debts. If the man or woman whose inheritance is in question has left neither ascendants nor descendants, but has left a brother or a sister, each one of the two gets a sixth; but if more than two, they share in a third; after payment of lagacies he (or she) may have bequeathed or debts, so that no loss is caused (to anyone). This is a Commandment from Allâh; and Allâh is Ever All Knowing, Most Forbearing.

The Noble Quran : Surat 4

Tafsir.com Tafsir Ibn Kathir


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## Liability (Sep 4, 2009)

Kalam said:


> Liability said:
> 
> 
> > *Do no passages of the Qur'an, in your view, contradict other passages of the Qur'an?*
> ...




Ah, you found your balls.  Good feller.

And, I already DID "post something."  http://www.usmessageboard.com/1485798-post737.html

Tip of the iceberg SET of contradictions collected from a website that offers LOTS more and links to yet more.


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## Kalam (Sep 4, 2009)

Liability said:


> No reply from Kalam?  Damn.  I hadn't  even called him Malarky today.


I'm sorry that responding to your posts isn't one of my foremost priorities. 



Liability said:


> Can Allah be seen and did Muhammad see his Lord? Yes [S. 53:1-18, 81:15-29], No [6:102-103, 42:51].


This is the type of simple-minded literalism that the Qur'an specifically warns against in 3:7 - 

_He it is Who has revealed the Book to thee;* some of its verses are decisive -- they are the basis of the Book -- and others are allegorical. Then those in whose hearts is perversity follow the part of it which is allegorical, seeking to mislead, and seeking to give it (false) interpretation.* And none knows its interpretation save Allah, and those firmly rooted in knowledge. They say: We believe in it, it is all from our Lord. And none mind except men of understanding._​
The Qur'an makes use of parables that should not be interpreted literally:

_And certainly We have set forth for men in this Quran every kind of parable. And if thou bring them a sign, those who disbelieve would certainly say: You're naught but deceivers._ - 30:58​
We'll look at the first passage you refer to:
_By the star when it sets! Your companion errs not, nor does he deviate. Nor does he speak out of desire. It is naught but revelation that is revealed - One Mighty in Power has taught him, The Lord of Strength. So he attained to perfection, And he is in the highest part of the horizon. Then he drew near, drew nearer yet, So he was the measure of two bows or closer still. So He revealed to His servant what He revealed. The heart was not untrue in seeing what he saw. Do you then dispute with him as to what he saw? And certainly he saw Him in another descent, At the farthest lote-tree. Near it is the Garden of Abode. When that which covers covered the lote-tree; The eye turned not aside, nor did it exceed the limit. Certainly he saw of the greatest signs of his Lord._ - 53:1-18​
The passage self-evidently does not refer to Muhammad literally "seeing" any physical manifestation of Allah (SWT). See v. 18 - "_Certainly he saw of the greatest signs of his Lord._" The "two bows," as the Maulana M. Ali explains, indicate the closeness of Muhammad to both Allah and his fellow men. What Muhammad "saw," specifically, was the truth of the revelation - this explains the reference to Muhammad "seeing" with his heart rather than literally viewing something with his eyes. 

The only part of 81:15-29 that could possibly be misconstrued as a description of anthropomorphism is 81:19-21 - 

_Surely it is the word of a bountiful Messenger, The possessor of strength, established in the presence of the Lord of the Throne, One obeyed, and faithful._​
Again, there is absolutely no indication that "presence" describes physical proximity rather than metaphorical closeness through devotion and belief. 



Liability said:


> Can Angels Cause the Death of People? The Qur'an attacks those who worship anyone besides God (e.g. angels or prophets) because those can neither create, nor give life, nor cause anyone to die. Yet, the Qur'an explicitly states that one angel or several angels are causing certain people to die [Sura 4:97, 16:28, 32, 32:11].


Angels are subservient to Allah and things that they "cause" are due to this subservience; not to their free will. 

_The Messiah disdains not to be a servant of Allah, nor do the angels who are near to Him. And whoever disdains His service and is proud, he will gather them all together to Himself._ - 4:172​


Liability said:


> To Marry or Not to Marry? The Qur'an forbids believers to marry idolatrous women [Sura 2:221], and calls Christians idolaters and unbelievers [9:28-33], but still allows Muslims to marry Christian women [5:5].


The Qur'an distinguishes clearly between those Christians and Jews who believe and those who transgress. It's the former group with whom marriage is permitted.

_You are the best nation raised up for men: you enjoin good and forbid evil and you believe in Allah. And if the People of the Book had believed, it would have been better for them. Some of them are believers but most of them are transgressors._ - 3:110​


Liability said:


> [How about the doctrine of ABROGATION itself!?]
> 
> Abrogation? "The words of the Lord are perfect in truth and justice; there is NONE who can change His words." [Sura 6:115] Also see 6:34 and 10:64. But then Allah (Muhammad?) sees the need to exchange some of them for "better ones" [Sura 2:106, 16:101]. And it is not for ignorant people to question Allah because of such practices!


Abrogation has already been addressed, including the two specific verses (2:106 and 16:101) to which you refer.

See:



Kalam said:


> There is no such thing as abrogation in the Qur'an. The Qur'an itself makes this clear in 4:82 - "Will they not then meditate on the Quran? And if it were from any other than Allah, they would have found in it many a discrepancy." Moreover, two of the three suwar I cited, _al-Baqara_ and _al-Anfal_, were revealed in Madinah, after hostilities had already commenced between the Muslims and the persecuting Quraish. _Al-Baqara_ in particular contains most of the Qur'an's guidance pertaining to dealing with enemies. The only verse I cited that was revealed in Makkah was one of the last revealed in that city, after the Quraish had been actively persecuting the Muslims there for some time. If any of the verses I referred to are "superceded" as you suggest, please show me the verses that supposedly take precedence over them. In 1936, Muslim leader and scholar Maulana Muhammad Ali wrote the following on the subject of abrogation:
> 
> That certain verses of the Qur'an are abrogated by others is now an exploded theory. The two passages on which it was supposed to rest, refer, really, to the abrogation, not of the Qur'an but of the previous revelations whose place the Holy Book had taken. The first verse is contained in the sixteenth chapter (_al-Nahl_) - a Makkah revelation - and runs thus: "And when We change a message for a message, - and Allah knows best what He reveals - they say: Thou art only a forger" (16:101). It is a fact that details of the Islamic law were revealed at Madinah and it is in relation to these details that the theory of abrogation has been broached. Therefore, a Makkah revelation would not speak of abrogation. But the reference in the above verse is to the abrogation, not of the Qur'anic verses but of the previous Divine messages or revelations, consequent upon revelation of the Qur'an. The context shows this clearly to be the case, for the opponents are here made to say that the Prophet was a forger. He was so accused by the opponents not because he announced the abrogation of certain verses in the Qur'an but because he claimed that the Qur'an was a divine revelation which had taken the place of previous revelations. They argued that it was not a revelation at all: "Only a mortal teaches him" (16:103). According to them the whole of the Qur'an, and not merely a particular verse of it, was a forgery. The theory of abrogation, therefore, cannot be based on this verse which speaks only of one revelation or one law taking the place of another.
> 
> The other verse which is supposed to lend support to the theory runs thus: "Whatever message we abrogate or cause to be forgotten, We bring one better than it or one like it" (2:106). A reference to the context will show that the Jews or the followers of previous revelations are here addressed. Of these it is said: "they say: We believe in that which was revealed to us; and they deny what is besides that" (2:91). So they were told that if a certain revelation was abrogated, it was only to give place to a better one. And there is mention not only of abrogation but also of something that was forgotten. The words "or cause to be forgotten" cannot refer to the Qur'an at all because no portion of it could be said to have been forgotten so as to require a new revelation in its place. There is no point in supposing that God should make the Prophet forget a verse and then reveal a new one in its place. Why not, if he really had forgotten a verse, remind him of the one forgotten? But even if it is supposed that his memory ever failed in retaining (which really never happened), that verse was quite safely preserved in writing, and the mere failure of memory could not necessitate a new revelation. That the Prophet never forgot what was recited to him is plainly stated in the Qur'an: "We shall make the recite, so thou shalt not forget" (87:6). History also bears out the fact that he never forgot any portion of the Qur'anic revelation. Sometimes the whole of a very long chapter would be revealed to him in one portion, as in the case of the sixth chapter which extends over twenty sections, but he would cause it to be written without delay, and make his companions learn it by heart, and recite it in public prayers, and that without the change of even a letter, notwithstanding the fact that he himself could not read from a written copy, nor did the written copies, as a rule, remain in his possession. It was a miracle indeed that he never forgot any portion of the Qur'an, though other things he might forget, and it is to his forgetfulness in other things that the words _except what Allah pleases_, in the next verse (87:7), refer. On the other hand, it is a fact that parts of the older revelations had been utterly lost and forgotten, and thus the Qur'an was needed to take the place of that which was abrogated, and that which had been forgotten by the world.





Liability said:


> answering-islam.org


No wonder. 



Liability said:


> Even HOW Allah sent the Qur'an down to man is a matter of self-contradiction


I see Qur'anic passages that refer to the commencement of revelation during Ramadhan, but none that say the Qur'an was revealed in its entirety at that time. 

They refer to a 15th century commentary as "proof" of this claim, as if all Islamic belief is bound by the misinterpretations of the Tafsir al-Jalalayn.


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## Liability (Sep 4, 2009)

Kalam said:


> Liability said:
> 
> 
> > No reply from Kalam?  Damn.  I hadn't  even called him Malarky today.
> ...



But impatiently WAITING for me to post *when I had already* posted about half an hour BEFORE you asked IS one of your priorities, evidently.  You _*are*_ a bit of an imbecile.  

I will get back to the remainder of your insipid response soon.


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## Kalam (Sep 4, 2009)

Liability said:


> But impatiently WAITING for me to post *when I had already* posted about half an hour BEFORE you asked IS one of your priorities, evidently.


I'd been away from the computer and hadn't refreshed the page. Shall I beg for your forgiveness?



Liability said:


> I will get back to the remainder of your insipid response soon.


I'll strive to make my posts more action-packed and entertaining for you in the future.


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## Liability (Sep 4, 2009)

Kalam said:


> Liability said:
> 
> 
> > But impatiently WAITING for me to post *when I had already* posted about half an hour BEFORE you asked IS one of your priorities, evidently.
> ...



There's no charge for begging.



Kalam said:


> Liability said:
> 
> 
> > I will get back to the remainder of your insipid response soon.
> ...



You do tend to the insipid, as your last post just reaffirmed, but no need to change your style.  That you AT LEAST are willing to address the questions at all is actually one of your more redeeming qualities.


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## Kalam (Sep 4, 2009)

Liability said:


> There's no charge for begging.


I'll keep that in mind.



Kalam said:


> You do tend to the insipid, as your last post just reaffirmed, but no need to change your style.


I wasn't actually planning on it. I may be insipid, but I can also be sarcastic. 



Liability said:


> That you AT LEAST are willing to address the questions at all is actually one of your more redeeming qualities.


That's good to know...


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## Liability (Sep 4, 2009)

Kalam said:


> Liability said:
> 
> 
> > There's no charge for begging.
> ...



So, you are pleased that there is no charge for begging, you are content to be insipid (with or without what you deem sarcasm) and you are pleased to know that I recognize your more redeeming quality as a post-er.

Great!

Now, I'll get back to work and then do a little research on some of your replies to the examples of the NUMEROUS and rather starkly obvious contradictions contained within the Qur'an.


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## Mr.Fitnah (Sep 4, 2009)

Kalam said:


> This is the type of simple-minded literalism that the Qur'an specifically warns against in 3:7 -
> 
> _He it is Who has revealed the Book to thee;* some of its verses are decisive -- they are the basis of the Book -- and others are allegorical. Then those in whose hearts is perversity follow the part of it which is allegorical, seeking to mislead, and seeking to give it (false) interpretation.* And none knows its interpretation save Allah, and those firmly rooted in knowledge. They say: We believe in it, it is all from our Lord. And none mind except men of understanding._​
> The Qur'an makes use of parables that should not be interpreted literally:
> ...



*Still torturing the Quran I see.*When something is clear you  should not seek to avoid its meaning  or you are tempting fitnah.

3:7. It is He Who has sent down to you (Muhammad SAW) the Book (this Qur'ân).
* In it are Verses that are entirely clear, 

they are the foundations of the Book
*
* [and those are the Verses of Al-Ahkâm (commandments, etc.),
 Al-Farâ'id (obligatory duties) and Al-Hudud 
(legal laws for the punishment of thieves, adulterers, etc.)];*
 and others not entirely clear. 

So as for those in whose hearts there is a deviation (from the truth) they follow that which is not entirely clear thereof, seeking Al-Fitnah (polytheism and trials, etc.),
and seeking for its hidden meanings,
but none knows its hidden meanings save Allâh.

 And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say: "We believe in it; the whole of it (clear and unclear Verses) are from our Lord." And none receive admonition except men of understanding. (Tafsir At-Tabarî).


----------



## Kalam (Sep 4, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> *Still torturing the Quran I see.*




I quoted from it directly.


----------



## THE LIGHT (Sep 5, 2009)

Anguille said:


> Mr.Fitnah said:
> 
> 
> > I'm asking for some one to proves equivocally using Islamic scripture that none muslims are innocent.
> ...


 
If two typos is all you can find wrong with his question I'll take that as acknowledgement that there is no evidence that non muslims are inocent in their (muslims) eyes.


----------



## THE LIGHT (Sep 5, 2009)

> "His trembling court assemble, which consists of his great officers, the alcaydes, blacks, whites, tawnies and his favourite Jews, all barefooted...
> "He is...known by his very looks and motions; and sometimes the colour of the habit that he wears, yellow being observed to be his killing colour; from all of which they calculate whether they may hope to live twenty-four hours longer...
> "Sometimes when he goes out of town...he will be attended by fifteen or twenty thousand blacks on horseback, with whom he now and then diverts himself at (by throwing) the lance...
> "His travelling utensils are two or three guns, a sword or two, and two lances, because one broke once while he was murdering;
> "His boys carry short Brazil sticks, knotted cords for whipping, a change of clothes to shift when bloody, and a hatchet, two of which he took in a Portuguese ship, and the first time they were bought to him, killed a man without any provocation, to try if they were good."


 
An account of Sultan Moulay Ismail, A Journey to Mequinez (Meknes), written by John Windus and published in London, 1825

That sounds like being nice to the innocent.


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## John Lemmon (Sep 5, 2009)

Islam forbids hot chicks and well groomed men.


----------



## Mr.Fitnah (Sep 5, 2009)

Many muslims like to say " Islam forbids the killing of innocent people"
Please provide Islamic scripture to prove unequivocally non muslims are innocent.


----------



## Kalam (Sep 5, 2009)

THE LIGHT said:


> An account of Sultan Moulay Ismail, A Journey to Mequinez (Meknes), written by John Windus and published in London, 1825
> 
> That sounds like being nice to the innocent.



And this has what to do with Islamic scripture?


----------



## THE LIGHT (Sep 5, 2009)

Kalam said:


> THE LIGHT said:
> 
> 
> > An account of Sultan Moulay Ismail, A Journey to Mequinez (Meknes), written by John Windus and published in London, 1825
> ...


 
Well, being the great grandson of Muhammad and being a Muslim you would think that he would be a good example of the teachings his great grandfather bestowed upon him.


----------



## PixieStix (Sep 5, 2009)

Kalam said:


> There's nothing meaningless about true Islam.


 

 And this?

_"None of Our revelations do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, but We substitute something better or similar: Knowest thou not that Allah Hath power over all things?"_ Surah 2: 106
_"When We substitute one revelation for another, and Allah knows best what He reveals (in stages), they say, "Thou art but a forger": but most of them understand not."_ Surah 16:101


----------



## Kalam (Sep 5, 2009)

THE LIGHT said:


> Well, being *the great grandson of Muhammad* and being a Muslim you would think that he would be a good example of the teachings his great grandfather bestowed upon him.



Ismail ibn Sharif lived in the 18th century, Herodotus.


----------



## Kalam (Sep 5, 2009)

PixieStix said:


> Kalam said:
> 
> 
> > There's nothing meaningless about true Islam.
> ...



This has been addressed at least ten times. Perhaps color coding it will help.



Kalam said:


> There is no such thing as abrogation in the Qur'an. The Qur'an itself makes this clear in 4:82 - "Will they not then meditate on the Quran? And if it were from any other than Allah, they would have found in it many a discrepancy." Moreover, two of the three suwar I cited, _al-Baqara_ and _al-Anfal_, were revealed in Madinah, after hostilities had already commenced between the Muslims and the persecuting Quraish. _Al-Baqara_ in particular contains most of the Qur'an's guidance pertaining to dealing with enemies. The only verse I cited that was revealed in Makkah was one of the last revealed in that city, after the Quraish had been actively persecuting the Muslims there for some time. If any of the verses I referred to are "superceded" as you suggest, please show me the verses that supposedly take precedence over them. In 1936, Muslim leader and scholar Maulana Muhammad Ali wrote the following on the subject of abrogation:
> 
> That certain verses of the Qur'an are abrogated by others is now an exploded theory. The two passages on which it was supposed to rest, refer, really, to the abrogation, not of the Qur'an but of the previous revelations whose place the Holy Book had taken. The first verse is contained in the sixteenth chapter (_al-Nahl_) - a Makkah revelation - and runs thus: "And when We change a message for a message, - and Allah knows best what He reveals - they say: Thou art only a forger" (16:101). It is a fact that details of the Islamic law were revealed at Madinah and it is in relation to these details that the theory of abrogation has been broached. Therefore, a Makkah revelation would not speak of abrogation. But the reference in the above verse is to the abrogation, not of the Qur'anic verses but of the previous Divine messages or revelations, consequent upon revelation of the Qur'an. The context shows this clearly to be the case, for the opponents are here made to say that the Prophet was a forger. He was so accused by the opponents not because he announced the abrogation of certain verses in the Qur'an but because he claimed that the Qur'an was a divine revelation which had taken the place of previous revelations. They argued that it was not a revelation at all: "Only a mortal teaches him" (16:103). According to them the whole of the Qur'an, and not merely a particular verse of it, was a forgery. The theory of abrogation, therefore, cannot be based on this verse which speaks only of one revelation or one law taking the place of another.
> 
> The other verse which is supposed to lend support to the theory runs thus: "Whatever message we abrogate or cause to be forgotten, We bring one better than it or one like it" (2:106). A reference to the context will show that the Jews or the followers of previous revelations are here addressed. Of these it is said: "they say: We believe in that which was revealed to us; and they deny what is besides that" (2:91). So they were told that if a certain revelation was abrogated, it was only to give place to a better one. And there is mention not only of abrogation but also of something that was forgotten. The words "or cause to be forgotten" cannot refer to the Qur'an at all because no portion of it could be said to have been forgotten so as to require a new revelation in its place. There is no point in supposing that God should make the Prophet forget a verse and then reveal a new one in its place. Why not, if he really had forgotten a verse, remind him of the one forgotten? But even if it is supposed that his memory ever failed in retaining (which really never happened), that verse was quite safely preserved in writing, and the mere failure of memory could not necessitate a new revelation. That the Prophet never forgot what was recited to him is plainly stated in the Qur'an: "We shall make the recite, so thou shalt not forget" (87:6). History also bears out the fact that he never forgot any portion of the Qur'anic revelation. Sometimes the whole of a very long chapter would be revealed to him in one portion, as in the case of the sixth chapter which extends over twenty sections, but he would cause it to be written without delay, and make his companions learn it by heart, and recite it in public prayers, and that without the change of even a letter, notwithstanding the fact that he himself could not read from a written copy, nor did the written copies, as a rule, remain in his possession. It was a miracle indeed that he never forgot any portion of the Qur'an, though other things he might forget, and it is to his forgetfulness in other things that the words _except what Allah pleases_, in the next verse (87:7), refer. On the other hand, it is a fact that parts of the older revelations had been utterly lost and forgotten, and thus the Qur'an was needed to take the place of that which was abrogated, and that which had been forgotten by the world.


----------



## Mr.Fitnah (Sep 5, 2009)

Maulana Muhammad Ali is entitled to his opinion. He is a heretic 

Ahmadiyya - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


----------



## Kalam (Sep 5, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> Maulana Muhammad Ali is entitled to his opinion. He is a heretic
> 
> Ahmadiyya - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



1. Ad hominem. It wouldn't matter if he was a sun-worshiping Pagan; his argument would still be correct.

2. The Lahore Ahmadiyya Movement is not heretical. The Pakistani government and other bodies simply fail to distinguish between them and the heretical Ahmadiyya Muslim Community.

Lahore Ahmadiyya Movement for the Propagation of Islam - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


----------



## Mr.Fitnah (Sep 5, 2009)

> his argument would still be correct.


No, it would still be a flawed conclusion.


----------



## Kalam (Sep 5, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> > his argument would still be correct.
> 
> 
> No, it would still be a flawed conclusion.



You've done absolutely nothing to demonstrate this. Please address his argument point-by-point and explain why it's incorrect. As far as abrogation is concerned, no other interpretation can be said to be in line with the Qur'an. The heretics are those who twist the words of the Qur'an and claim that the word of Allah (SWT) was in need of abrogation and correction. 

The Lie Of Quranic Abrogation | Free Quran Online
A Study of the Quran | Doctrine of Abrogation
Not a Single Verse of the Quran is Abrogated?
The Islamic Calendars and Others- Understadning, calculating Ramadan, Hajj and other Islamic events-Hilal-Crescent-new-Calendar-dates-Prophet Muhammed, Mohammed-Islam (Submission)-Hadith and Sunna in Islam (Submission)- Ahadith-Sunnah-Quran, Qur'an, 
False Accusations

etc., etc., etc.


----------



## THE LIGHT (Sep 6, 2009)

Kalam said:


> THE LIGHT said:
> 
> 
> > Well, being *the great grandson of Muhammad* and being a Muslim you would think that he would be a good example of the teachings his great grandfather bestowed upon him.
> ...


 
Actually the 17th century ... but yeah, my bad. I read it wrong, as he is a descendant of Muhammad's grandson but not the grandson.

However, the question still stands. As a notable descendant of Mohammad, should he not be a good representative of his relative's and fellow brother's religion?


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## Mr.Fitnah (Sep 6, 2009)

Naskh
(1) Abrogation, revocation, repeal. Theoretical tool used to resolve contradictions in Quranic verses, hadith literature, tafsir (Quranic exegesis), and usul al-fiqh (roots of law), whereby later verses (or reports or decisions) abrogate earlier ones. Based on Quranic verse ( 2:106 ) according to which God occasionally replaces older verses with better ones. (2) A style of Arabic calligraphy.

Naskh - Oxford Islamic Studies Online

Sword Verses.
Muslim tradition describes several different verses of the Qur&#8190;&#257;n as the &#8220;sword verse&#8221; (usually given in the Arabic singular &#257;yat al-sayf&#8202;&#8202;&#8202;&#8202. These include Qur&#8190;&#257;n 9:5, the verse most commonly designated the sword verse par excellence, because it is believed to contain the command revealed by God and because it proclaimed at the pilgrimage of the year 631 C.E. that polytheism would henceforth be proscribed and that all Arabian polytheists, at least, would henceforth be required to embrace Islam. Verses 2:191, 193; 4:89, 91; 8:39; 9:29, 36, 73, 123; and 66:9 all likewise appear to mandate an unlimited military struggle until the superiority of Islam is acknowledged, either by submission to a tax in the case of followers of organized scriptural religions (9:29), or by adoption of Islam in the case of the Arabian polytheists.

Basing themselves partly on the sword verse and expanding the caliphate's claims, some Muslim religious scholars elaborated a doctrine of abrogation (naskh) which held that certain Qur&#8190;&#257;nic verses had cancelled others in whole or in part. In particular, they asserted that the sword verse had cancelled many verses calling for negotiation, patience, peace, compassion, and mercy. Such verses could be seen as restraining the rulers&#8217; claims to pursue universal dominion, and their negation could be viewed as freeing the rulers&#8217; hands. The doctrine of naskh can be traced to the eighth century C.E., and it reached its zenith with Hibat All&#257;h ibn Sal&#257;mah (d. 1019) and Ibn Hazm (d. 1064), who each cited over two hundred abrogated verses, most of these allegedly nullified by the sword verse. This tradition continued in the Hanbal&#299; school with al-Karm&#299; (d. 1623) and others.

At the same time, a trend arose opposing the radical excision of verses from the sacred text through naskh. Because the possibility of abrogation exists in Qur&#8190;&#257;n 2:106, the opponents of naskh sought simply to limit its use, instead of denying abrogation altogether. Ab&#363; Ja&#8190;far al-Na&#7717;&#7717;&#257;s (d. 949), Ibn al-Jawz&#299; (d. 1201), and al-Suy&#363;t&#299; (d. 1505) all accepted only twenty or so cases of naskh, none involving the sword verse. Later, the naskh doctrine continued to retreat, with the abrogated verses declining to twelve for al-Zarq&#257;n&#299; (d. 1688) and five for Sh&#257;h Wal&#299; All&#257;h al-Dihlaw&#299; (d. 1762). Many recent works deny abrogation altogether, as naskh is seen as compromising the integrity of the Qur&#8190;&#257;n. The trend to minimized abrogation won over even the Hanbal&#299;s eventually, and few Muslims today support massive abrogation of Qur&#8190;&#257;nic verses.

Although the medieval and modern anti-abrogationists have not explicitly opposed the sword verse or the imperative to fight in God's path, they have certainly opened the door to a more irenic interpretation. Normally, they specify that the sword verses were directed only at the Arabian polytheists and that they have no general application beyond that. In practice, Muslims have tolerated polytheistic religions outside of Arabia and have completely given up the idea of gaining universal dominion by force.

See also Qur&#8190;&#257;n, subentry on History of the Text.

Bibliography
Kamali, Mohammad Hashim. Principles of Islamic Jurisprudence. Rev. ed. Cambridge, U.K., 1991. See pp. 164&#8211;165.
Qadhi, Abu Ammaar Yasir. An Introduction to the Sciences of the Qur&#8190;aan. Birmingham, U.K., 1999. See pp. 250&#8211;255.

Sword Verses. - Oxford Islamic Studies Online



He did not say, &#8220;if they pay the jizyah&#8221;. The Jews, Christians and Magians are to be asked to enter Islam; if they refuse then they should be asked to pay the jizyah. If they refuse to pay the jizyah then the Muslims must fight them if they are able to do so. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning): 

&#8220;Fight against those who (1) believe not in Allaah, (2) nor in the Last Day, (3) nor forbid that which has been forbidden by Allaah and His Messenger  (Muhammad), (4) and those who acknowledge not the religion of truth (i.e. Islam) among the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians), until they pay the Jizyah with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued&#8221;

[al-Tawbah 9:29] 

And it was proven that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) accepted the jizyah from the Magians, but it was not proven that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) or his companions (may Allaah be pleased with them) accepted the jizyah from anyone except the three groups mentioned above. 

The basic principle concerning that is the words of Allaah (interpretation of the meaning): 

&#8220;And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and polytheism, i.e. worshipping others besides Allaah), and the religion (worship) will all be for Allaah Alone [in the whole of the world]&#8221;

[al-Anfaal 8:39] 

&#8220;Then when the Sacred Months (the 1st, 7th, 11th, and 12th months of the Islamic calendar) have passed, then kill the Mushrikoon (see V.2:105) wherever you find them, and capture them and besiege them, and lie in wait for them in each and every ambush. But if they repent [by rejecting Shirk (polytheism) and accept Islamic Monotheism] and perform As-Salaah (Iqaamat-as-Salaah), and give Zakaah, then leave their way free. Verily, Allaah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful&#8221;

[al-Tawbah 9:5] 

This verse is known as Ayat al-Sayf (the verse of the sword). 

*These and similar verses abrogate the verses which say that there is no compulsion to become Muslim. 
*
And Allaah is the Source of strength. 

Islam Question and Answer - There is no compulsion to accept Islam


----------



## Mr.Fitnah (Sep 6, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> Mr.Fitnah said:
> 
> 
> > Mr.Fitnah said:
> ...



Again 
http://www.usmessageboard.com/1489948-post762.html


----------



## Mr.Fitnah (Sep 6, 2009)

Kalam said:


> Mr.Fitnah said:
> 
> 
> > > his argument would still be correct.
> ...


Now you have resorted to lies.
You can post 100 opinions , the fact remains Naskh  exists. Period
You can have your own opinions, but not you own facts.


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## PubliusInfinitum (Sep 6, 2009)

Kalam said:


> Mr.Fitnah said:
> 
> 
> > > his argument would still be correct.
> ...



LOL... I keep seeing these flaccid little defenses of 'Islam is a religion of peace'... and still there exists Muslims blowing other muslims to hell all over the planet.

And all in the name of Allah and all professing the teachings of Mohammad.

Now one begins to wonder why it is that Muslims, such as yourself, who are bleeding these lies... IF what you say is true... that these Muslims who are determined to kill anyone who contests their own faith; those that see such who contest their faith as being 'infidels,' thus being worthy of destruction... are liars; that these liars are dishonoring Islam through the speaking of lies about what Islam means and demonstrating acts anathema to Islam... that the VAST MAJORITY of the planets Muslim believe differently...   where the hell are *you* in the fight to save Islam, from those who are purpetrating evil in the name of Islam; which is the ONLY potential conclusion, which your argument can bring... 

If there existed a Baptist cult who was sending bombs to destroy the non-baptists, based purely on their standing as non-Baptists... As a Baptists, I'd be on the front line outing such liars...  Where I found one in out church... I'd out him to the Church and the civil authorities...  there would be no where for these idiots to gather without a true Baptists pointing to them and declaring them liars and murderers... 

They would NOT be able to fly the Baptist flag, as the world would know them by their true, wholly *anti*-Baptist lies.  There would be NO PLACE on earth, where such people could call themselves Baptists...  We would have Baptist preachers all over the world STRIPPING THE MURDERERS OF ANY HOPE OF BEING KNOWN AS BAPTISTS...  Unless... of course... The MAJORITY OF THE BAPTIST WORLD EMBRACED THEM...  EXCEPT, where the Baptists accepted them into their Churches, held them up as HEROS and blessed them with adoration for their piety and Baptist virtue...  Which of course would mean that Baptists were complicit in the evil... that the Baptists were not a religion of peace... but were in truth, the purveyors of death to anyone who believed differently than themselves... and were determined to rid the world of non-baptists and enslave the survivors of the war against non-Baptists.

And given that argument, we find that... there is no place where one can go and find ANYTHING approaching an Islamic Jihad against the Terrorist Jihad...  Terrorist Muslims are welcome in every Mosque... they walk amongst the Muslims throughout Muslim communities... there is no place that I know of where the would-be liars of Terrorist Islam are being identified as such; except these tedious little defenses of Islam, buried in the backwaters of message boards and chat rooms.

Friend Kalam... point out for us, the Mosque which openly declares "Jihadi TERRORIST ISLAM IS A LIE!  TERRORIST MUSLIMS ARE *NOT WELCOMED!*"  Point out to us, the Mosques, where the leaders of such have openly turned over the names of those who are members of their flock, who have expressed support for Jihad; read: Terrorism; and OPENLY run their terrorist asses OUT OF THAT MOSQUE... Publicly, overtly outting them as betrayers of Islam and turning their backs to them; refusing them the nuorishment of fellowship within that Mosque...



Take your time...  but know that where you fail to bring to light the movements within the Islamic community which OPENLY REJECT, VEHEMENTLY DETEST, PUBLICALLY REBUKE Terrorist Jihad and REFUSE TO ALLOW those who have adhered to such within their Mosque; within their community...; and DO SO ON THE AUTHORITY OF ALLAH AND HIS SCRIPTURE ITSELF; where you fail to produce that... you fail to demonstrate that Islam is a religion of Peace.


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## JW Frogen (Sep 6, 2009)

Rather than what Islam forbids I think we should look to the smaller list, what does Islam allow?

Other than date cultivation, genital mutilation and hamburger helper suicide heaven.


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## Kalam (Sep 6, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> Now you have resorted to lies.


You've demonstrated conclusively that Ali's argument is false? No, I'm afraid I wasn't "lying."



Mr.Fitnah said:


> You can post 100 opinions , the fact remains Naskh  exists. Period
> You can have your own opinions, but not you own facts.


The only abrogation that occurred - according to the Qur'an - was its abrogation of previous scriptures. You can flatly deny this as much as you'd like, but you have not and most likely will not offer anything in the way of proof.


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## Kalam (Sep 6, 2009)

PubliusInfinitum said:


> LOL... I keep seeing these flaccid little defenses of 'Islam is a religion of peace'... and still there exists Muslims blowing other muslims to hell all over the planet.


I've never contended that Islam is a "religion of peace." It dedicates itself to resisting oppression in all of its forms. It's a religion of just requital.

If you're looking for Islamic condemnations of "the turrurists," all you have to do is hit up google.

IkhwanWeb
Statements Against Terror
IslamiCity.com - Muslim Americans Condemn Attack
BBC News | AMERICAS | Islamic world deplores US losses
Islam Online- News Section
Scholars of Islam & the Tragedy of Sept. 11th
Islam Online- News Section
Daily Telegraph: Bin Laden's violence is a heresy against Islam
Defending the Transgressed: Mudafi' al-Mazlum
BBC News | MIDDLE EAST | Grand Sheikh condemns suicide bombings
BBC News | MIDDLE EAST | Iran condemns attacks on US
Islam Online- News Section
The American Muslim (TAM)


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## Mr.Fitnah (Sep 6, 2009)

Kalam said:


> PubliusInfinitum said:
> 
> 
> > LOL... I keep seeing these flaccid little defenses of 'Islam is a religion of peace'... and still there exists Muslims blowing other muslims to hell all over the planet.
> ...


----------



## Mr.Fitnah (Sep 6, 2009)

Kalam said:


> Mr.Fitnah said:
> 
> 
> > Now you have resorted to lies.
> ...


Its a plain fact, one you refuse to acknowledge . Its OK You have to.
http://www.usmessageboard.com/1490020-post764.html


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## John Lemmon (Sep 6, 2009)

With all those korans lying around, at least you muzzyz have some toilet paper now.


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## Kalam (Sep 6, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> Its a plain fact, one you refuse to acknowledge.



Prove that the Qur'an refers to abrogation of itself. Prove that we're supposed to completely ignore the context of both 2:106 and 16:101.


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## Kalam (Sep 6, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> The president of al-Azhar University, Ahmed Omar Hasham, said that Islam is a religion of peace, tolerance and stability. "It does not call for aggression or injustice. False





You heard it here first, folks. Fitnuts knows more about Islam than both the Grand Imam and the President of the most important and respected Sunni Islamic university in the world.


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## Sunni Man (Sep 6, 2009)

So do we call him Imam Fitnuts now ?


----------



## Liability (Sep 6, 2009)

Kalam said:


> Mr.Fitnah said:
> 
> 
> > The president of al-Azhar University, Ahmed Omar Hasham, said that Islam is a religion of peace, tolerance and stability. "It does not call for aggression or injustice. False
> ...




No.  He's just calling them liars.  They are probably more than smart enough to know that what they said is untrue.


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## Kalam (Sep 6, 2009)

THE LIGHT said:


> However, the question still stands. As a notable descendant of Mohammad, should he not be a good representative of his relative's and fellow brother's religion?


No. Want to know another notable descendant of Muhammad (SAW)? Brooke Shields. You and I probably are, too. It doesn't really mean anything.

_"The longer ago somebody lived, the more descendants a person is likely to have today. Humphrys estimates that Muhammad, the founder of Islam, appears on the family tree of every person in the Western world."_​
Does your family have royal roots? - More health news- msnbc.com


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## Kalam (Sep 6, 2009)

Liability said:


> Kalam said:
> 
> 
> > Mr.Fitnah said:
> ...



Accusations of dishonesty are typically accompanied by specific evidence of the person in question being dishonest. I guess that doesn't apply to Muslims. How nice it must be to "prove" any Muslim wrong simply by declaring him a liar!


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## Kalam (Sep 6, 2009)

Sunni Man said:


> So do we call him Imam Fitnuts now ?



Imam Fitnuts, Grand Custodian of the Holy USMB Mosque and President of the esteemed Fitnuts Institute of Islamic Studies. 

Who knew that the requirements for being an expert on the religion were so lax?


----------



## THE LIGHT (Sep 6, 2009)

Kalam said:


> THE LIGHT said:
> 
> 
> > However, the question still stands. As a notable descendant of Mohammad, should he not be a good representative of his relative's and fellow brother's religion?
> ...


 
Really? Can I sell you some of my ocean front property in oklahoma with it?


----------



## Kalam (Sep 6, 2009)

THE LIGHT said:


> Really? Can I sell you some of my ocean front property in oklahoma with it?



If you're planning on making a point about how some distant relative of Muhammad is a perfect Muslim merely by virtue of his ancestry, I'd go ahead and do it.


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## Mr.Fitnah (Sep 6, 2009)

Kalam said:


> Mr.Fitnah said:
> 
> 
> > The president of al-Azhar University, Ahmed Omar Hasham, said that Islam is a religion of peace, tolerance and stability. "It does not call for aggression or injustice. False
> ...



You didn't seem to have  much respect for the books certified by the institution .
http://www.usmessageboard.com/1367626-post356.html
Umdat al-Salik wa Uddat al-Nasik

The western meaning of justice and  the Islamic meaning of justice are to different things Islam Islam calls  for the eradication of all none muslims  this goal is an obligation  and deceit  is merely a tactic. Disbelief is  a direct assault on  Huquq Allah "Rights of god" And must be righted by muslms.

8:39

And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and polytheism: i.e. worshipping others besides Allâh) and the religion (worship) will all be for Allâh Alone [in the whole of the world[]]. But if they cease (worshipping others besides Allâh), then certainly, Allâh is All-Seer of what they do 
2:193.  
And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allâh) and (all and every kind of) worship is for Allâh (Alone).[] But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against Az-Zâlimûn (the polytheists, and wrong-doers, etc193

Index of /what-is-islam/quran/noble

Tafsir.com Tafsir Ibn Kathir

Tafsir.com Tafsir Ibn Kathir

Tafsir.com Tafsir Ibn Kathir


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## Mr.Fitnah (Sep 6, 2009)

Kalam said:


> Liability said:
> 
> 
> > Kalam said:
> ...


The likelihood of a muslims lying is always a consideration to consider.
From an excellent  piece on Islamic deceptive practices. 


             it is obligatory for a [Muslim] student to give a positive interpretation to every utterance of his [Muslim] brothers that seems to be wrong until he has exhausted seventy excuses.  No one is incapable of this except a failure.  [see text at  note  22, infra]

Snip
2.  BACKGROUND

        A phenomenon confronting [ U.S. ] intelligence analysts is the Teflon effect in Islamic scholarship.  Islamic scholarship appears to employ positive bias.  [This is] resulting in a curious lack of critical analysis and objective criticism by mainstream Islamic scholars and authors when addressing Islamic topics.
                        a.  In those instances where penetrating, objective research is conducted by Islamic authors, the authors have been subjected to threats of violence, disproportionate to the level of their inquiry.  Criticism of Islam and Muslims frequently results in a surprisingly shrill and disproportionate hue and cry, suppressing critical inquiries into Islamic topics.  [see note 1, at end of this briefing paper]
                        b.  A source for this phenomenon lies in the Islamic Sacred Law.

3.  DISCUSSION

                        a.  Islamic Law.
                                    (1)  Islamic law is comprised of the  Koran [see note 2], the  Hadiths [see note 3], and consensus and reasoning by analogy [see note 4].
                                    (2)  Within the Sunni tradition, a primary legal reference is Ahmad ibn Naqib al-Misris Reliance of the Traveler:  A Classic Manual of Islamic Sacred Law.  [see note 5]
                                    (3)  These sources provide general guidelines for representing Islam in public writings.  The provisions cited below exert pressures inducing bias, obstructing objectivity, and creating a Teflon effect which is intolerant of derogatory comments concerning Islam or Muslims. 
                                    (4)  It is logical to infer that the more learned, the more devout [is an] Islamic writer or his reviewer, the more closely the writer adheres to Islamic precepts.  Conversely, the more secular [is] the Islamic writer, and the reviewer of his works, the less likely he is bound to these religious precepts. 
                                    (5)  Accredited Islamic scholarship is bound by the strictures of the Koran, the Hadiths and Islamic Law (reflected in said Reliance of the Traveler), and specific guidance is provided concerning the revelation of the shameful points of Islam.
                        b.  The Koran.  A recurring theme in the Koran is the overlooking of the faults, evil deeds or lesser sins of devout Muslims.  [see note  6]
                        c.  The Hadiths.  There is a similar theme of over-looking the faults of the pious and devout [Muslims] in the Hadiths.  [see note  7]
                        d.  The Reliance of the Traveler.  The following passage, taken from Reliance of the Traveler, quotes the Koran and the Hadiths, and [such law]
forms a powerful influence over Islamic scholarship.

                                    (1)  Asking About Anothers Mistakes.  Objective inquiry, and the analysis based on objective inquiry, is restrained in Islam.  Historical research, historical accounts, investigative journalism and other lines of literary inquiry into Islam may be influenced, by authors faithful to the following [Islamic law]:

            It is forbidden to ask about anothers errors and blunders in order to tell them they have made a mistake or to embarrass them, being unlawful because it entails an injury to another and belittling him in front of people.
            But when ones asking about mistakes is to learn or teach, to test or sharpen students minds or make them reflect, then it is recommended and desirable, because it facilitates the comprehension of religious knowledge.  [see note 8]


http://www.faithfreedom.org/oped/AlexandraParis60203.htm


----------



## Mr.Fitnah (Sep 6, 2009)

Kalam said:


> Mr.Fitnah said:
> 
> 
> > Its a plain fact, one you refuse to acknowledge.
> ...



*prove it to you?
Not possible .You are immune to reason and fact proof.*
http://www.usmessageboard.com/1359548-post196.html
*Prove it in general?  its common knowledge.
*
http://www.usmessageboard.com/1490020-post764.html

An example of the abrogation: there are 124 versus that call for tolerance and patience which have been canceled and replaced by this one single verse: 

9.5. Then when the Sacred Months (the Ist, 7th, 11th, and 12th months of the Islâmic calendar) have passed, then kill the Mushrikûn (see V.2:105) wherever you find them, and capture them and besiege them, and prepare for them each and every ambush. But if they repent and perform As-Salât (Iqâmat-as-Salât), and give Zakât, then leave their way free. Verily, Allâh is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.

Quran, there are only 43 Surahs that were not affected by this concept. 

This doctrine is based on the Quran, where Allah allegedly says in Surah 2:106. Whatever a Verse (revelation) do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, We bring a better one or similar to it. Know you not that Allâh is able to do all things?

Also, in Surah 
16:101. And when We change a Verse [of the Qur'ân, i.e. cancel (abrogate) its order] in place of another, and Allâh knows the best of what He sends down, they (the disbelievers) say: "You (O Muhammad SAW) are but a Muftari! (forger, liar)." Nay, but most of them know not.
The Noble Quran : Surat 16

The Abrogator and the Abrogated 
In their attempt to polish Islam's image, Muslim activists usually quote the Meccan passages of the Quran that call for love, peace and patience. The deliberately hid the Medenan passages that call for killing, decapitating, and maiming. 

Muslim activists also fail to reveal to people in the West a major doctrine in Islam called "al-Nasikh wal-Mansoukh" (the Abrogator and the Abrogated). This simply means that when a recent verse in the Quran gives a contradictory view to another verse that preceded it (chronologically), the recent verse abrogates (cancels and replaces) the old verse and renders it null and void. 

Tafsir.com Tafsir Ibn Kathir


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## Kalam (Sep 6, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> You didn't seem to have  much respect for the books certified by the institution.


I criticized you for quoting from _Reliance of the Traveler_ when the Qur'an was being discussed. However, you're attempting to divert the discussion away from your most recent display of idiocy. Let's focus on why you feel that you're qualified to categorically dismiss the statements of Al-Azhar's Grand Imam regarding the fundamental precepts of Islam.


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## Mr.Fitnah (Sep 6, 2009)

Kalam said:


> Mr.Fitnah said:
> 
> 
> > You didn't seem to have  much respect for the books certified by the institution.
> ...



As I stated,perhaps in a manner that was unclear to you , to be precise 

*he is using deception to promote a false image of Islam*.
Something he could not do by telling the truth 

... If a praiseworthy aim is attainable through both telling the truth and lying, it is unlawful to accomplish through lying because there is no need for it.
            &#8220;&#8217;When it is possible to achieve such an aim by lying but not telling the truth, it is permissible to lie if the goal is permissible, and it is obligatory to lie if the goal is obligatory.
            &#8220;&#8217;When, for example, one is concealing a Muslim from an oppressor who asks where he is, it is obligatory to lie about him being hidden.
            &#8220;&#8217;Or when a person deposits an article with one for safekeeping and an oppressor wanting to appropriate it inquires about it, it is obligatory to lie about having concealed it, for if one informs him about the article and he then seizes it, one is financially liable (to the owner) to cover the article&#8217;s cost.
            &#8220;&#8217;Whether the purpose [of telling a lie] is war, settling a disagreement, or gaining sympathy of a victim legally entitled to retaliate against one, so that he will forbear to do so, it is not unlawful to lie when any of these aims can be obtained through lying.&#8217;&#8221;

                                    &#8220;(a)  Islamic scholars elaborate on this point.

            &#8220;&#8217;Believers [Muslims] in a weakened stage in a non-Muslim country should forgive and be patient with people of the book [being Christians and Jews] when they insult Allah and His prophet by any means.  Believers [Muslims] should lie to people of the book [Christians and Jews] to protect their lives and their religion [of Islam].&#8217;  [see note  16]

http://www.faithfreedom.org/oped/AlexandraParis60203p3.htm

The fact presented  in the thread  have proved conclusively that Islam scripturally sanctifies terrorism , injustice and genocide.


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## Sunni Man (Sep 6, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> The fact presented  in the thread  *have proved conclusively *that Islam scripturally sanctifies terrorism , injustice and genocide.



When was this proved conclusively ?

You really live in your own little world Fitnuts


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## Kalam (Sep 6, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> The likelihood of a muslims lying is always a consideration to consider.



I'm sure it is in the minds of the apostate fruitbars at "faithfreedom." 

No Qur'anically-conscious Muslim is a liar. Dutiful believers are truthful:

_And mix not up truth with falsehood, nor hide the truth while you know._ - 2:42​
_It is not righteousness that you turn your faces towards the East and the West, but righteous is the one who believes in Allah, and the Last Day, and the angels and the Book and the prophets, and gives away wealth out of love for Him to the near of kin and the orphans and the needy and the wayfarer and to those who ask and to set slaves free and keeps up prayer and pays the poor-rate; and the performers of their promise when they make a promise, and the patient in distress and affliction and in the time of conflict. These are they who are truthful; and these are they who keep their duty. _- 2:177​
_The patient and the truthful, and the obedient, and those who spend and those who ask Divine protection in the morning times._ - 3:17​
_And whoever obeys Allah and the Messenger, they are with those upon whom Allah has bestowed favours from among the prophets and the truthful and the faithful and the righteous, and a goodly company are they!_ - 4:69​
_Allah will say: This is a day when their truth will profit the truthful ones. For them are Gardens wherein flow rivers abiding therein for ever. Allah is well pleased with them and they are well pleased with Allah. That is the mighty achievement. _- 5:119​
_O you who believe, keep your duty to Allah and be with the truthful._ - 9:119​
_That Allah may reward the truthful for their truth, and chastise the hypocrites, if He pleases, or turn to them (mercifully). Surely Allah is ever Forgiving, Merciful. _- 33:24​
_Surely the men who submit and the women who submit, and the believing men and the believing women, and the truthful men and the truthful women, and the patient men and the patient women, and the humble men and the humble women, and the charitable men and the charitable women, and the fasting men and the fasting women, and the men who guard their chastity and the women who guard, and the men who remember Allah much and the women who remember -- Allah has prepared for them forgiveness and a mighty reward. _- 33:35​
_And those who believe in Allah and His messengers, they are the truthful and the faithful ones with their Lord. They have their reward and their light. And those who disbelieve and reject Our messages, they are the inmates of hell._ - 57:19​


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## Kalam (Sep 6, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> he is using deception to promote a false image of Islam.


Prove specifically that this man was lying.


----------



## Kalam (Sep 6, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> *Prove it in general?  its common knowledge.
> *
> 
> This doctrine is based on the Quran, where Allah allegedly says in Surah 2:106.
> ...



How thick must you be to repeatedly post something that has conclusively been shown to be false? 

The argument for abrogation has no basis in either of these verses.


----------



## Liability (Sep 6, 2009)

Kalam said:


> Mr.Fitnah said:
> 
> 
> > *Prove it in general?  its common knowledge.
> ...




Your contention, your mere claim, that you have "conclusively" proved anything is evidence that you are untruthful.

You have YET to defeat the rational and reasonable interpretation of the rather clear  verses cited by Mr. F regarding abrogation.


You yourself  HAVE admitted that there some passages of the Qur'an do contradict other passages.  (In fairness, you may not even comprehend that you have admitted as much, but you have.)

If there are contradcitions, both cannot be simultaneously true.  Rationality and logic suggest (as do the verses cited by Mr. F.) that subsequent verses abrogate the prior ones since it makes no sense to believe that subsequent verses which contradict earlier ones are the invalid ones.  {If the subsequent verses were invalid -- and come later -- why would Allah have imparted them in the first place?}

Your thinking remains addled because you are unable to use logic, Kalam.


----------



## Mr.Fitnah (Sep 6, 2009)

Kalam said:


> Mr.Fitnah said:
> 
> 
> > The likelihood of a muslims lying is always a consideration to consider.
> ...



I agree the Quran warns muslims to be truthful with other muslims' none muslims is a different story.

Volume 4, Book 52, Number 267: 
Narrated Abu Huraira: 

The Prophet said, "Khosrau will be ruined, and there will be no Khosrau after him, and Caesar will surely be ruined and there will be no Caesar after him, and you will spend their treasures in Allah's Cause." He called, "War is deceit'. 

----------
Volume 4, Book 52, Number 268: 
Narrated Abu Huraira: 

Allah's Apostle called,: "War is deceit". 

----------
Volume 4, Book 52, Number 269: 
Narrated Jabir bin 'Abdullah: 

The Prophet said, "War is deceit."


----------



## Mr.Fitnah (Sep 6, 2009)

Kalam said:


> Mr.Fitnah said:
> 
> 
> > *Prove it in general?  its common knowledge.
> ...


You are immune to reason and fact proof.


----------



## Kalam (Sep 6, 2009)

Liability said:


> Your contention, your mere claim, that you have "conclusively" proved anything is evidence that you are untruthful.


You're right - the credit belongs primarily to Maulana Muhammad Ali. 



Liability said:


> You have YET to defeat the rational and reasonable interpretation of the rather clear  verses cited by Mr. F regarding abrogation.


I had before you and he arrived. He has consistently failed to illustrate specifically why the refutation I've offered is illogical and continues to post (read: copy and paste) arguments based on the very passages that the refutation explains. Nothing about Fitnuts is "rational" or "reasonable" - his pitiful existence on this messageboard is singularly devoted to spreading the propaganda of Wahhabis and similar radicals and acting as if they're representative of the entire Islamic religion.



Liability said:


> You yourself  HAVE admitted that there some passages of the Qur'an do contradict other passages.  (In fairness, you may not even comprehend that you have admitted as much, but you have.)


I've admitted no such thing. Show me an apparent contradiction in the Qur'an and, time permitting, I'll explain why it's a simple misinterpretation. 



Liability said:


> If there are contradcitions, both cannot be simultaneously true.


I concur. None exist...



Liability said:


> Rationality and logic suggest (as do the verses cited by Mr. F.)


The verses cited by Fitnuts, as any honest reader of the Qur'an will conclude, refer to the abrogation of previous scriptures by the Qur'an. Again, see the explanation of 16:101 and 2:106 by Islamic leader/scholar and translator of the Qur'an, Maulana Muhammad Ali:

_That certain verses of the Qur'an are abrogated by others is now an exploded theory. The two passages on which it was supposed to rest, refer, really, to the abrogation, not of the Qur'an but of the previous revelations whose place the Holy Book had taken. The first verse is contained in the sixteenth chapter (al-Nahl) - a Makkah revelation - and runs thus: "And when We change a message for a message, - and Allah knows best what He reveals - they say: Thou art only a forger" (16:101). It is a fact that details of the Islamic law were revealed at Madinah and it is in relation to these details that the theory of abrogation has been broached. Therefore, a Makkah revelation would not speak of abrogation. But the reference in the above verse is to the abrogation, not of the Qur'anic verses but of the previous Divine messages or revelations, consequent upon revelation of the Qur'an. The context shows this clearly to be the case, for the opponents are here made to say that the Prophet was a forger. He was so accused by the opponents not because he announced the abrogation of certain verses in the Qur'an but because he claimed that the Qur'an was a divine revelation which had taken the place of previous revelations. They argued that it was not a revelation at all: "Only a mortal teaches him" (16:103). According to them the whole of the Qur'an, and not merely a particular verse of it, was a forgery. The theory of abrogation, therefore, cannot be based on this verse which speaks only of one revelation or one law taking the place of another.

The other verse which is supposed to lend support to the theory runs thus: "Whatever message we abrogate or cause to be forgotten, We bring one better than it or one like it" (2:106). A reference to the context will show that the Jews or the followers of previous revelations are here addressed. Of these it is said: "they say: We believe in that which was revealed to us; and they deny what is besides that" (2:91). So they were told that if a certain revelation was abrogated, it was only to give place to a better one. And there is mention not only of abrogation but also of something that was forgotten. The words "or cause to be forgotten" cannot refer to the Qur'an at all because no portion of it could be said to have been forgotten so as to require a new revelation in its place. There is no point in supposing that God should make the Prophet forget a verse and then reveal a new one in its place. Why not, if he really had forgotten a verse, remind him of the one forgotten? But even if it is supposed that his memory ever failed in retaining (which really never happened), that verse was quite safely preserved in writing, and the mere failure of memory could not necessitate a new revelation. That the Prophet never forgot what was recited to him is plainly stated in the Qur'an: "We shall make the recite, so thou shalt not forget" (87:6). History also bears out the fact that he never forgot any portion of the Qur'anic revelation. Sometimes the whole of a very long chapter would be revealed to him in one portion, as in the case of the sixth chapter which extends over twenty sections, but he would cause it to be written without delay, and make his companions learn it by heart, and recite it in public prayers, and that without the change of even a letter, notwithstanding the fact that he himself could not read from a written copy, nor did the written copies, as a rule, remain in his possession. It was a miracle indeed that he never forgot any portion of the Qur'an, though other things he might forget, and it is to his forgetfulness in other things that the words except what Allah pleases, in the next verse (87:7), refer. On the other hand, it is a fact that parts of the older revelations had been utterly lost and forgotten, and thus the Qur'an was needed to take the place of that which was abrogated, and that which had been forgotten by the world._​


Liability said:


> that subsequent verses abrogate the prior ones since it makes no sense to believe that subsequent verses which contradict earlier ones are the invalid ones.


No verse abrogates any other verse. If the Qur'an was intended to be viewed through the lense of "abrogation," its chapters would have been arranged chronologically.



Liability said:


> Your thinking remains addled because you are unable to use logic, Kalam.


I invite you to point out any unsound logic in the argument I've provided.


----------



## Kalam (Sep 6, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> I agree the Quran warns muslims to be truthful with other muslims' none muslims is a different story.



Show this to be true using the Qur'an.


----------



## Kalam (Sep 6, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> You are immune to reason and fact proof.



I accept that you're unable to find a rational basis for belief in abrogation now that 16:101 and 2:106 have been properly explained.


----------



## Mr.Fitnah (Sep 6, 2009)

These ayat set the conditions for taqiyya.

3:28. Let not the believers take the disbelievers as Auliyâ (supporters, helpers, etc.) instead of the believers, and whoever does that will never be helped by Allâh in any way, except if you indeed fear a danger from them. And Allâh warns you against Himself (His Punishment)[], and to Allâh is the final return.

2:173. He has forbidden you only the Maytatah (dead animals), and blood, and the flesh of swine, and that which is slaughtered as a scrifice for others than Allâh (or has been slaughtered for idols, etc., on which Allâh's Name has not been mentioned while slaughtering). But if one is forced by necessity without wilful disobedience nor transgressing due limits, then there is no sin on him. Truly, Allâh is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.

2:185. The month of Ramadân in which was revealed the Qur'ân, a guidance for mankind and clear proofs for the guidance and the criterion (between right and wrong). So whoever of you sights (the crescent on the first night of) the month (of Ramadân i.e. is present at his home), he must observe Saum (fasts) that month, and whoever is ill or on a journey, the same number [of days which one did not observe Saum (fasts) must be made up] from other days. Allâh intends for you ease, and He does not want to make things difficult for you. (He wants that you) must complete the same number (of days), and that you must magnify Allâh [i.e. to say Takbîr (Allâhu-Akbar; Allâh is the Most Great) on seeing the crescent of the months of Ramadân and Shawwâl] for having guided you so that you may be grateful to Him.

4:26. Allâh wishes to make clear (what is lawful and what is unlawful) to you, and to show you the ways of those before you, and accept your repentance, and Allâh is All Knower, All Wise.

16:116. And say not concerning that which your tongues put forth falsely: "This is lawful and this is forbidden," so as to invent lies against Allâh. Verily, those who invent lies against Allâh will never prosper.

22:78. And strive hard in Allâh's Cause as you ought to strive (with sincerity and with all your efforts that His Name should be superior). He has chosen you (to convey His Message of Islâmic Monotheism to mankind by inviting them to His religion, Islâm), and has not laid upon you in religion any hardship,[] it is the religion of your father Ibrahim (Abraham) (Islâmic Monotheism). It is He (Allâh) Who has named you Muslims both before and in this (the Qur'ân), that the Messenger (Muhammad SAW) may be a witness over you and you be witnesses over mankind![] So perform As Salât (Iqamat-as-Salât), give Zakât and hold fast to Allâh [i.e. have confidence in Allâh, and depend upon Him in all your affairs] He is your Maula (Patron, Lord, etc.), what an Excellent Maula (Patron, Lord, etc.) and what an Excellent Helper!

40:28. And a believing man of Fir'aun's (Pharaoh) family, who hid his faith said: "Would you kill a man because he says: My Lord is Allâh, and he has come to you with clear signs (proofs) from your Lord? And if he is a liar, upon him will be (the sin of) his lie; but if he is telling the truth, then some of that (calamity) wherewith he threatens you will befall on you." Verily, Allâh guides not one who is a Musrif (a polytheist, or a murderer who shed blood without a right, or those who commit great sins, oppressor, transgressor), a liar!


----------



## Mr.Fitnah (Sep 6, 2009)

Kalam said:


> Mr.Fitnah said:
> 
> 
> > You are immune to reason and fact proof.
> ...




*prove it to you?
Not possible .You are immune to reason and fact proof.*
http://www.usmessageboard.com/1359548-post196.html
*Prove it in general?  its common knowledge.
*
http://www.usmessageboard.com/1490020-post764.html

An example of the abrogation: there are 124 versus that call for tolerance and patience which have been canceled and replaced by this one single verse: 

9.5. Then when the Sacred Months (the Ist, 7th, 11th, and 12th months of the Islâmic calendar) have passed, then kill the Mushrikûn (see V.2:105) wherever you find them, and capture them and besiege them, and prepare for them each and every ambush. But if they repent and perform As-Salât (Iqâmat-as-Salât), and give Zakât, then leave their way free. Verily, Allâh is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.

Quran, there are only 43 Surahs that were not affected by this concept. 

This doctrine is based on the Quran, where Allah allegedly says in Surah 2:106. Whatever a Verse (revelation) do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, We bring a better one or similar to it. Know you not that Allâh is able to do all things?

Also, in Surah 
16:101. And when We change a Verse [of the Qur'ân, i.e. cancel (abrogate) its order] in place of another, and Allâh knows the best of what He sends down, they (the disbelievers) say: "You (O Muhammad SAW) are but a Muftari! (forger, liar)." Nay, but most of them know not.
The Noble Quran : Surat 16

The Abrogator and the Abrogated 
In their attempt to polish Islam's image, Muslim activists usually quote the Meccan passages of the Quran that call for love, peace and patience. The deliberately hid the Medenan passages that call for killing, decapitating, and maiming. 

Muslim activists also fail to reveal to people in the West a major doctrine in Islam called "al-Nasikh wal-Mansoukh" (the Abrogator and the Abrogated). This simply means that when a recent verse in the Quran gives a contradictory view to another verse that preceded it (chronologically), the recent verse abrogates (cancels and replaces) the old verse and renders it null and void. 

Tafsir.com Tafsir Ibn Kathir


----------



## Liability (Sep 6, 2009)

Kalam said:


> Liability said:
> 
> 
> > Your contention, your mere claim, that you have "conclusively" proved anything is evidence that you are untruthful.
> ...




You, on the one hand, seem to deny (at least in your direct words) that the Qur'an contains within it any contradictory passages.  

But then, later, you implicitly ACKNOWLEDGE that it DOES contain within it some contradictory passages when you attempt to EXPLAIN the contradictions.

If there were no contradictions, there would be no need for such "explanations."

You previosuly contended, for example, that some passages are supposedly literal while other passages are parables.  Sure.  YOU get to choose (pick and choose) which ones are to be taken literally and which ones can be 'explained" as matters of mere interpretation.  But there are far too many contradictions for your facile explanations to hold water.

And I have provided a link or two previously (as to which you promptly engaged in ad hominem fallacy to disparage) showing many of the self-contradictions within the Qur'an.  

Why you would need to ask me to provide the same again is -- strange -- therefore.  

Here's one:  





> Can Angels Cause the Death of People? The Qur'an attacks those who worship anyone besides God (e.g. angels or prophets) because those can neither create, nor give life, nor cause anyone to die. *Yet*, the Qur'an explicitly states that one angel or several angels are causing certain people to die [Sura 4:97, 16:28, 32, 32:11].


 Contradictions / Difficulties in the Qur'an

Please dispense with your ususal deflection of attacking the source.  I couldn't care less what your opinion is of the source.  Address, instead, the illustrated contradiction.  

Then, of course, there is yet another example.  





> The Qur'anic verses commenting on the proper age of a girl to marry:


 Qur'an Contradiction: Is there a minimum age for marriage?

Or, try this set:  





> Will Allah reward the good deeds of Unbelievers? S. 9:17 and 9:69 clearly say no. However, S. 99:7 implies yes. Moreover, S. 2:62 promises Christians reward for their good deeds. But S. 9:28-33; 5:17, 72-73 calls Christians idolaters, and S. 9:17 is very clear that idolaters will have no reward.


 Contradictions / Difficulties in the Qur'an


Thee are SO many more.  Contradictions / Difficulties in the Qur'an


----------



## John Lemmon (Sep 7, 2009)

Islam forbids rational arguments and common sense.... and toilet paper!

Kalam, please quote me the passage where the koran says you have to wipe your ass with your hand, I bet there's one.


----------



## Liability (Sep 7, 2009)

John Lemmon said:


> Islam forbids rational arguments and common sense.... and toilet paper!
> 
> Kalam, please quote me the passage where the koran says you have to wipe your ass with your hand, I bet there's one.



Didn't the scumbag Ayatoolah Kookmeini once describe how many stones were properly used to wipe one's ass?



> "It is not necessary to wipe one's anus with three stones or three pieces of fabric: a single stone of single piece of fabric is enough. But if one wipes it with a bone, or any sacred object, such as for example, a paper having the name of God on it, one may not say his prayer while in this state." ~~Ayatollah Khomeini


see:  Gems of Khomeini


----------



## Mr.Fitnah (Sep 7, 2009)

Many muslims like to say " Islam forbids the killing of innocent people"
Please provide Islamic scripture to prove unequivocally non muslims are innocent.


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## John Lemmon (Sep 8, 2009)

Islam forbids kalam from getting laid.


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## logical4u (Sep 8, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> Islam forbids the killing of innocent people"
> Please provide scripture to proves unequivocally non muslims are innocent
> Shirk is worse than Killing
> 
> ...




Just seems to be more people using their personal beliefs as an excuse to hurt others.  You are not helping anyone by forcing them to believe as you.  Your arguements are similar to L. Ron Hubbard's: blah, blah, blah....twenty pages later, small point, blah, blah, blah...
If you believe others are not innocent, you have taken the role of judge from G*d onto yourselves (and He is a just G*d).
Treating other people as less than people does not make you better, it makes you a bully.
At least with Christians, they tell others of the life of Yeshua and let that person decide for themselves (G*d will judge them, not Christians).
G*d gave people the ability to reason, what do you think He thinks of those that try to take that gift from them?


----------



## mystic (Sep 10, 2009)

logical4u said:


> Just seems to be more people using their personal beliefs as an excuse to hurt others.  You are not helping anyone by forcing them to believe as you.  Your arguements are similar to L. Ron Hubbard's: blah, blah, blah....twenty pages later, small point, blah, blah, blah...
> If you believe others are not innocent, you have taken the role of judge from G*d onto yourselves (and He is a just G*d).
> Treating other people as less than people does not make you better, it makes you a bully.
> At least with Christians, they tell others of the life of Yeshua and let that person decide for themselves (G*d will judge them, not Christians).
> G*d gave people the ability to reason, what do you think He thinks of those that try to take that gift from them?



You hear that, Mr. Fitnah? Your arguments are, "similar to L. Ron Hubbard's" 

Yeah, and stop being a bully by judging others.


----------



## Mr.Fitnah (Sep 11, 2009)

Many muslims like to say " Islam forbids the killing of innocent people"
Please provide Islamic scripture to prove unequivocally non muslims are innocent.


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## mystic (Sep 11, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> Many muslims like to say " Islam forbids the killing of innocent people"
> Please provide Islamic scripture to prove unequivocally non muslims are innocent.



I already did that for you. My, you have a short memory. 

I don't think that you're looking to be proven wrong. I think you're looking to be proven right. And evidence to the contrary be damned.  It's a common MO for most people, but my word of warning is this: If you think you have all the answers, you'll never learn anything new. 

And wouldn't that be sad?

People will often make the holy grail of "being right" their first priority over everything. But that is what has led us to the state of the world as it is today.


----------



## Mr.Fitnah (Sep 11, 2009)

mystic said:


> Mr.Fitnah said:
> 
> 
> > Many muslims like to say " Islam forbids the killing of innocent people"
> ...


Please link to any post the proves unequivocally that none muslims are innocent according to Islamic scripture .


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## John Lemmon (Sep 12, 2009)

islam forbids fitnah from getting laid.


----------



## PixieStix (Sep 12, 2009)

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YuG0ifhPxRc]YouTube - The Qur'an CHALLENGE![/ame]


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## Sunni Man (Sep 13, 2009)

LOL that guy was funny!!!


----------



## Kalam (Sep 13, 2009)

Liability said:


> You, on the one hand, seem to deny (at least in your direct words) that the Qur'an contains within it any contradictory passages.
> 
> But then, later, you implicitly ACKNOWLEDGE that it DOES contain within it some contradictory passages when you attempt to EXPLAIN the contradictions.


Nothing I've done can be called explaining contradictions, because no contradictions exist. I've explained passages that have been misinterpreted as contradictions.



Liability said:


> If there were no contradictions, there would be no need for such "explanations."


Explanations are necessary to disprove the notion that the Qur'an contains internal contradictions. 



Liability said:


> You previosuly contended, for example, that some passages are supposedly literal while other passages are parables.  Sure.  YOU get to choose (pick and choose) which ones are to be taken literally and which ones can be 'explained" as matters of mere interpretation.  But there are far too many contradictions for your facile explanations to hold water.


It seems self-evident to me that the passages meant to be taken literally are those that contain direct commandments. Parables are obviously subject to interpretation. "Answering Islam's" supposed contradictions are as frail as everything else on that website.



Liability said:


> The Qur'anic verses commenting on the proper age of a girl to marry


No contradiction here. The age of marriage is the age of majority - false reports concerning Aishah's age don't contradict the Qur'an. All of the references to women who haven't menstruated are found within discussions of divorce, not marriage, as child brides were not uncommon in jahili society.



Liability said:


> Or, try this set: Will Allah reward the good deeds of Unbelievers? S. 9:17 and 9:69 clearly say no.


9:17 explicitly refers to those idolaters who "maintain the mosques of Allah," meaning the Makkans. 9:69 clearly refers to the Makkans as well: _"Like those before you -- they were stronger than you in power and had more wealth and children."_ The suggestion that these passages describe all idolaters is laughable. 



Liability said:


> However, S. 99:7 implies yes. Moreover, S. 2:62 promises Christians reward for their good deeds. But S. 9:28-33; 5:17, 72-73 calls Christians idolaters, *and S. 9:17 is very clear that idolaters will have no reward.*


We've now established that this is incorrect, rendering the rest of their argument baseless. 



Liability said:


> Thee are SO many more.  Contradictions / Difficulties in the Qur'an



Apparently, I wasn't the first to notice how unsubstantial they are. 

New Index, The Answer to Answering Islam, Main Page


----------



## Kalam (Sep 13, 2009)

Sunni Man said:


> LOL that guy was funny!!!



I couldn't even finish the video, his style of speech is so annoying and douchebaggy. Anyone want to provide me with a summary?


----------



## John Lemmon (Sep 13, 2009)

Kalam said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> > LOL that guy was funny!!!
> ...



Allah is a child raping pedophile who beats his wives and put all this in the koran.


----------



## Liability (Sep 13, 2009)

Kalam said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> > LOL that guy was funny!!!
> ...



The semi-official Kalam's words-to-truth translator service 100% accurate interpretation:

That guy told the truth about the Qur'an and Islam.  

This quite understandably offended Kalam.


----------



## Kalam (Sep 13, 2009)

Anyone want to provide me with an actual summary?


----------



## John Lemmon (Sep 13, 2009)

People in the west would get arrested for what the koran condones.


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## Kalam (Sep 13, 2009)

John Lemmon said:


> People in the west would get arrested for what the koran condones.



In certain places and under certain circumstances, that's true. IDRC...


----------



## Sunni Man (Sep 13, 2009)

Liability said:


> Kalam said:
> 
> 
> > Sunni Man said:
> ...


The guy didn't tell the truth about the Qur'an or Islam.

He was just funny because of his ignorance about the subject


----------



## John Lemmon (Sep 13, 2009)

Sunni, one question: do you wipe only your own ass with your hand or do you get to wipe all your wives poo holes as well?


----------



## Liability (Sep 13, 2009)

Sunni Man said:


> Liability said:
> 
> 
> > Kalam said:
> ...



Oh bull.  As we all know, he told the unmitigated truth.

And the humor comes from seeing how absurd the "faith" of Islam is.


----------



## Liability (Sep 13, 2009)

Kalam said:


> Anyone want to provide me with an actual summary?




Play the video.  It's much more complete and accurate and not even all that long.


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## Sunni Man (Sep 13, 2009)

No need to watch the video Kalam.

It's just more anti Islamic nonsense by a misinformed fool


----------



## Kalam (Sep 13, 2009)

Liability said:


> Kalam said:
> 
> 
> > Anyone want to provide me with an actual summary?
> ...



I suffered through 3 minutes of pseudo-intellectual douchebaggery for nothing. 

He makes references to Aishah's age when she was married to Muhammad. We now know that the marriage took place when she was in her late teens, according to most sources.

He claims that Aishah was beaten by Muhammad and cites Muslim 4:2127 as his source. How can it be a "Qur'anic" challenge if he invokes accounts from hadith collections?

He mentions that Muhammad had multiple wives. This is true, and all of them were widows or women whose status he drastically improved through marriage.

He mentions that Muhammad owned slaves. Muhammad captured prisoners of war, but aside from that encouraged the manumission of slaves. He, his family, and his companions freed nearly 40,000 of them. 

He mentions that Muhammad "slaughtered hundreds of Jews." This refers to a falsified account in Ibn Ishaq's _Sirat Rasul Allah_, one that we now know was based on tall tales told by spiteful Madinan Jews (as there is no archaeological evidence suggesting that such an event ever took place.) Even if we were to assume that the account was legitimate, it was Sa'd ibn Mu'adh, not Muhammad, who decided the fate of the Banu Qurayza.


----------



## Liability (Sep 13, 2009)

Kalam said:


> Liability said:
> 
> 
> > Kalam said:
> ...




Bull.  We KNOW she was 6 when married and 9 when the pedohile Mohammed consumated the marriage by having intercourse with the little girl. 

He DID keep slaves.

Mighty nice of him to encourage that slaves be freed.  Whatta guy!
Imagine those 'sptieful Joooz" being spiteful in light of the kind and gentle loving respectful references to Joooz in the Qur'an.

Come on.  Try being honest.  That supposedly holy book is quite full of hate and depravity.


----------



## Sunni Man (Sep 13, 2009)

Liability said:


> Kalam said:
> 
> 
> > Liability said:
> ...



"We know"     Son you don't know jack about Islam or Muslims.

What little bits of info you do have. You got from that loon Mr. Fitnuts.

Now that's a real knowledgable source


----------



## Liability (Sep 13, 2009)

Sunni Man said:


> Liability said:
> 
> 
> > Kalam said:
> ...



I aint your son, son.

Oh, and what I know of the dishonestly labeled "religion of peace" I learned from a wide variety of sources including that terrible book itself, the Qur'an.

The _*religion of pieces*_ makes reasonable people cringe.  What filth.


----------



## Sunni Man (Sep 13, 2009)

Liability said:


> The religion of pieces makes reasonable people cringe.  *What filth*.


Please post a verse, or any verses, out of the Qur'an that contains "filth"

Thank You


----------



## Liability (Sep 13, 2009)

Sunni Man said:


> Liability said:
> 
> 
> > The religion of pieces makes reasonable people cringe.  *What filth*.
> ...




It has been done repeatedly.  You just ignore it.

Repeating it for you will thus serve no additional purpose.

But what the hell?

If a woman is raped, the offending party cannot be convicted except upon the confirmation of four witnesses.  But, you know, _sometimes_ rapists don't commit their rapes in front of other people.  Wo the Qur'anic command that rape requires four witnesses really serves no rational purpose in this universe where forensic evidence might serve the actual purpose.  but it sure as hell CAN get a woman in trouble.  For if she is a victim of some asshole's rape of her, and if she has the unmitigated audacity to accuse the scumbag, but there are not four witnesses to the attack, then she is admitting fornication and in some of the enlightened sharia law lands, this can get her imprisoned, whipped or even executed.  

Surah 24, verses 11- 15.  24. Light

Or perhaps the Qur'anic command to lightly beat one's disloyal or poorly behaved wives is not depraved?  

Surah 4, verse 34. 





> Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husband's) absence what Allah would have them guard. As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them (first), (Next), refuse to share their beds, (And last) beat them (lightly); but if they return to obedience, seek not against them Means (of annoyance): For Allah is Most High, great (above you all).


 4. Women - IslamiCity

And there's always that old standby:

Surah 9, verse 11 -12:  





> But (even so), if they repent, establish regular prayers, and practise regular charity,- they are your brethren in Faith: (thus) do We explain the Signs in detail, for those who understand.
> 
> 12. But if they violate their oaths after their covenant, and taunt you for your Faith,- fight ye the chiefs of Unfaith: for their oaths are nothing to them: that thus they may be restrained.


 9. Repentance, Dispensation

Lots of this is just tip of the iceberg stuff.

Lets contemplate Surah, verse 38. 





> As to the thief, Male or female, cut off his or her hands: a punishment by way of example, from Allah, for their crime: and Allah is Exalted in power.


 5. The Table, The Table Spread

Sweet.  Not perverse or depraved at all.  Unless it's just a mistranslation.  Is it a mistranslation?  Or DOES the Qur'an command that theives (either gender) should suffer amputation in that way?

Or, perhaps we can discuss again Surah 9, verse 29:



> Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.


 9. Repentance, Dispensation

I don't feel inclined to ever feel "subdued."  I will not pay any Jizya.  Must you, then, now fight me?  No depravity in that?  Is it ok with you if I disagree and demand that you pay some humilation tax to me until YOU feel subdued and bow to some other "God?"  Would THAT be depraved in _*your*_ view?


----------



## Sunni Man (Sep 13, 2009)

I see no "filth" in the verses you posted.

These are all just civil and criminal laws that are enforced in some Islamic countries.


In Europe there is no death penalty.

They see Americans as "filth" for executing convicted murderers.


In other words, you might not agree with other countries criminal laws.

But that doesn't make it wrong or "filth", as you put it.


----------



## Liability (Sep 13, 2009)

Sunni Man said:


> I see no "filth" in the verses you posted.
> 
> These are all just civil and criminal laws that are enforced in some Islamic countries.
> 
> ...



Interesting deflection.  Focus on just one point and pretend that's all that had been said.

You Izzy's love to do that kind of transparent crap.

It is the stinking Qur'an that ends up getting rape victims imprisoned for the audacity of accusing the bastards who raped them.  Filth.

It is the Qur'an that tells Izzys to subjugate the unbelievers until submission.  Filth.

And, as I noted, these are but tip of the iceberg examples.

The Qur'an is a filthy nightmare of 7th Century barbarism.


----------



## mal (Sep 13, 2009)

Sunni Man said:


> I see no "filth" in the verses you posted.
> 
> These are all just civil and criminal laws that are enforced in some Islamic countries.
> 
> ...



Stoning a Women to Death over Simple Accusations of Infidelity, by being Stoned after being Buried up to her Head, is Animalistic and Barbaric...

Putting a Murdering Rapist to Sleep after 15 Years of Due Process, 3 Hots and a Cot and a Master's Degree in the American System, is Humane.

*Fuck you and Fuck Islam.*



peace...


----------



## Sunni Man (Sep 13, 2009)

None of your examples are what could be called "filthy"

Maybe you and Liabiliy need to look up the definition of the word before you run your mouth.

You might disagree with Islamic jurisprudence.

But that is a subjective call based on your opinion, and basically means nothing.


----------



## Kalam (Sep 14, 2009)

Liability said:


> Bull.  We KNOW she was 6 when married and 9 when the pedohile Mohammed consumated the marriage by having intercourse with the little girl.


If you choose to rely on the authority of a single source. Both Abu Dawud and Ibn Kathir indicate that Aishah was significantly older when she married Muhammad. Her age was artificially lowered in Bukhari to remove any doubt about her virginity and the legitimacy of Muhammad's offspring through her, most likely. 



Liability said:


> He DID keep slaves.


Did I deny this?



Liability said:


> Mighty nice of him to encourage that slaves be freed.  Whatta guy!


_"Nobody wishes more ardently to see an abolition, not only of the trade, but of the condition of slavery; and certainly, nobody will be more willing to encounter every sacrifice for that object."_ - Thomas Jefferson, slaveowner (1788).​


Liability said:


> Imagine those 'sptieful Joooz" being spiteful in light of the kind and gentle loving respectful references to Joooz in the Qur'an.


I hear Madinan Jews had it especially rough.

_"To the Jew who follows us belong help and equality. He shall not be wronged nor shall his enemies be aided. 

...

The Jews of the B. Auf are one community with the believers (the Jews have their religion and the Muslims have theirs), their freedmen and their persons except those who behave unjustly and sinfully, for they hurt but themselves and their families"_ - Muhammad, "j00 hater" (622).​


Liability said:


> Come on.  Try being honest.  That supposedly holy book is quite full of hate and depravity.


Whatever you say.


----------



## mystic (Sep 14, 2009)

Liability said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> > I see no "filth" in the verses you posted.
> ...



I find it so sad when people fall prey to propaganda. There's really no excuse for ignorance in this day and age where there are media outlets that are not sponsor funded and the vastness of internet. 

If you bothered to read some books on the subject, Liability, you would know that rape victims being imprisoned has more to do with tribal codes. Not Islam.  

The Quran talks about defense. I suppose you stopped reading before you got to the part where it says to stop fighting when they stop fighting you. 

I know you haven't actually read the Quran from cover to cover as I have. No, you just get little snippets from websites that pander to this type of misinformation. 

You do realize how easy it is to totally misrepresent what is being said by only taking a small piece of the whole...? They do it to celebrities and politicians all the time. 

If you have a brain.....use it.


----------



## mystic (Sep 14, 2009)

tha malcontent said:


> Stoning a Women to Death over Simple Accusations of Infidelity, by being Stoned after being Buried up to her Head, is Animalistic and Barbaric...



Agreed. Has nothing to do with Islam. 

KKK says they have Christian morals too. Do you believe them as well?



tha malcontent said:


> Putting a Murdering Rapist to Sleep after 15 Years of Due Process, 3 Hots and a Cot and a Master's Degree in the American System, is Humane.



No, it's not humane. If it was _my_ mother he raped and murdered, I'd prefer him to be beheaded (like the Saudis do ) thank you very much. But maybe you just don't care as much about your mother...?



tha malcontent said:


> *Fuck you and Fuck Islam.*
> 
> 
> 
> peace...



How old are you?


----------



## Liability (Sep 14, 2009)

Sunni Man said:


> None of your examples are what could be called "filthy"
> 
> Maybe you and Liabiliy need to look up the definition of the word before you run your mouth.
> 
> ...



It is your subjective opinion that denies that Islamic "scripture" is what motivates Islamic "jurisprudence" or that it is anything but filth.

And it is your denial that means nothing.

By the way, I do believe that in some VERY limited circumstances, a death penalty might be appropriate.  It is not a tenent of my "faith," however.  

And if some 7th Century style Barbarian consider modern Western values and the present American legal system to be "filthy," I don't give a rat's ass.  I do not seek to compel anybody in any other part of the world to adopt our system of justice or our moral directives.  But Islam DOES seek to compel those who do not embrace Islam to embrace Islam under compulsion.  Filth.

And if you truly cared about the definitions of words, you could look it up:  filth - Definition from the Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary

In case your mind is as narrow as your views, you should probably be advised:  I object to Islam, not to Muslims.  Anybody in THIS land is free to BE an adherent of Islam, but that doesn't mean I have to endorse their misguided judgment and beliefs.


----------



## Liability (Sep 14, 2009)

mystic said:


> * * * *
> 
> I find it so sad when people fall prey to propaganda. There's really no excuse for ignorance in this day and age where there are media outlets that are not sponsor funded and the vastness of internet.
> 
> ...



I was half-inclined to respond to you a bit more civilly, but since you are a bit of a dope and have your own issues of incivility, I guess it will save time to just be blunt.  

I am not subject to YOUR propaganda precisely because I took some time and made the effort to go to the source.  That is how I have learned what Islam is all about.  And upon doing that I discovered that it is a vile religion started by a nasty barbaric scumbag.  It is because I am not moved by YOUR efforts tat propaganda that you get upset with my words.

I don't ask ANYBODY to accept what I say about Islam on the basis of my say so.  I have not accepted anybody else's spin about what Islam is, either.  As I noted, I have gone to the source, instead.

Rape victims are imprisoned not just on dopey tribal codes.  They are imprisoned based on a depraved reading of ignorant words in the Qur'an -- perhaps coupled with dopey tribal codes or customs.

And I did read the filthy Qur'an so while I know that it SAYS 'stop fighting when they stop fighting,' I ALSO know (as you fail to mention) that the cited passage is CONTRADICTED in at least one other passage of the Qur'an.  And this point has already been discussed several times in this and a couple of related threads.  Try to keep up when pretending to lecture a class, sweetie.

And when I go back to cite some of that garbage which I have read, since there is no rational reason on Earth to commit any of that filth to memory, you bet your ass I use online resources.  So your false claim (imagine an Izzy engaging in lies -- gee, who'd'a ever thunk it) that I have not read the entire book is just more of your baseless speculation which you try to foist off as if you had any facts to back it up.  You don't.

It is also easy to misrepresent what Islam is and what the Qur'an says (as you and a few select others on this very thread are guilty of doing) by selectively choosing passages that appear to support your denial of a claim, all the time refusing to admit the contradictions themselves and by claiming that the alleged contradictions are actually just misinterpretation of the seamless non-contradictory whole.  

Bull.  It isn't seamless.  It endlessly contradicts itself.  And there is a doctrine of abrogation which many of you faithful adherents pretend doesn't exist.  Islamic "scholars" themselves constantly contradict each other using the words of the Qur'an as support for THEIR respective interpretations, as some of the folks HERE have even noted.  

But the folks HERE cannot seem to grasp that the FACT that Islamic Scholars themselves disagree with each other (citing Qur'anic verses as "proof") NECESSARILY MEANS that the Qur'an IS SUBJECT to interpretation and IS thus not clear, not seamless and that *their* preferred interpretations are not necessarily the "correct" ones.

Try to use your own brain, toots.  It appears not to be working so well for you.


----------



## mystic (Sep 14, 2009)

Liability said:


> I was half-inclined to respond to you a bit more civilly, but since you are a bit of a dope and have your own issues of incivility, I guess it will save time to just be blunt.



You know, you're right in that I could have replied a bit more politely. My apologies; I tend to be a sarcastic wench sometimes.  I hope there is no permanant damage? 



Liability said:


> I am not subject to YOUR propaganda precisely because I took some time and made the effort to go to the source.  That is how I have learned what Islam is all about.  And upon doing that I discovered that it is a vile religion started by a nasty barbaric scumbag.  It is because I am not moved by YOUR efforts tat propaganda that you get upset with my words.
> 
> I don't ask ANYBODY to accept what I say about Islam on the basis of my say so.  I have not accepted anybody else's spin about what Islam is, either.  As I noted, I have gone to the source, instead.



So I will ask you a question. Are you religious at all? 



Liability said:


> Rape victims are imprisoned not just on dopey tribal codes.  They are imprisoned based on a depraved reading of ignorant words in the Qur'an -- perhaps coupled with dopey tribal codes or customs.



There is nothing in the Quran that says that rape victims should be punished in anyway. What is happening in some countries with so-called sharia is that when a woman files a complaint of rape, there is never 4 witnesses; so the perps get off scott free and the woman, because of her own admission, is imprisoned under zina laws. This is very unislamic. 
I will say again that the tribal laws in these areas trump religion. And in fact, the problem is that _they say that their laws are religion...when in fact they are tribal code!_ They do this to give their laws more weight and influence.
The tribal code pre-dates Islam and obviously supercedes it as well.



Liability said:


> And I did read the filthy Qur'an so while I know that it SAYS 'stop fighting when they stop fighting,' I ALSO know (as you fail to mention) that the cited passage is CONTRADICTED in at least one other passage of the Qur'an.  And this point has already been discussed several times in this and a couple of related threads.  Try to keep up when pretending to lecture a class, sweetie.



This thread is a bit heavy. No, I have not read every post. So I will have to find this post that you are talking about in order to address the point.

I don't recall the verses about warfare being contradicted or abrogated. But then, my views are coming from someone who has read the entire Quran and who doesn't put much stock in what so-and-so says about his interpetation. To those that say that I am not allowed to make my own interpetation...that's why God said that there doesn't need to be an iintermediary between the supplicant and God.

...I will try to keep up, sensei. 



Liability said:


> And when I go back to cite some of that garbage which I have read, since there is no rational reason on Earth to commit any of that filth to memory, you bet your ass I use online resources.  So your false claim (imagine an Izzy engaging in lies -- gee, who'd'a ever thunk it) that I have not read the entire book is just more of your baseless speculation which you try to foist off as if you had any facts to back it up.  You don't.
> 
> It is also easy to misrepresent what Islam is and what the Qur'an says (as you and a few select others on this very thread are guilty of doing) by selectively choosing passages that appear to support your denial of a claim, all the time refusing to admit the contradictions themselves and by claiming that the alleged contradictions are actually just misinterpretation of the seamless non-contradictory whole.
> 
> ...



I'm not Muslim and I don't think the Quran is perfect. But it's a lot better then the Bible. And of course it is subject to interpretation! Of course scholars are going to disagree. 

That's why I prefer to make my own interpetation. 

I find quite a bit of beauty reading the Quran. And if I need help understanding something, I look it up and pick the interpetation that I like the most. The one that is most favorable to my understanding. 

Most (literate) Muslims will tell you that there is not an example of Islamic society on earth at this present time. So if Muslims are saying that the faith is not being practiced properly...why do you think it is?


----------



## Liability (Sep 14, 2009)

mystic said:


> Liability said:
> 
> 
> > I was half-inclined to respond to you a bit more civilly, but since you are a bit of a dope and have your own issues of incivility, I guess it will save time to just be blunt.
> ...



I did not read the rest of your post after reading that opening paragraph.   The reason?

I do not care to engage you any further.  And I do not mean that in a derogatory way.

What I mean is:  I have decided not to discuss this topic (Islam) in such detail any further.  I am not particularly religious.  My limited religious beliefs are what they are, and I see no reason to seek to impose my views on you.  I am not open to having anybody try to impose Islam on me, either.

I have been rude in discussing Islam, in fact.  Not just to you, but to Kalam and Sunni Man and perhaps to many other Muslims as well.  Although I do harbor quite negative views about Islam and the Qur'an, I confess that there is not a whole lot of valid purpose served in venting about it.  I noted it.  I stand by my low opinion of Islam.  But it is a bit unseemly (of me) to be spewing it at you or at other believers of that faith.

So, for the future, although I reserve my right to comment about it as the discussion might warrant, I have resolved not to go out of my way to be so offensive in expressing that view of Islam.

My apologies to you, to Sunni Man, to Kalam and to any other Muslims whom I have needlessly offended in my unnecessarily overt way.  I do not apologize for my low opinion of Islam or even for stating that I have a low opinion of Islam.  But I do apologize for spending too much time on the topic -- and rather pointlessly at that.  The insults I have offered became gratuitous.  That was uncool.  _Mea culpa_.


----------



## BigBarry (Sep 15, 2009)

Islam is a more racist religion that even judaism, now THAT's bad!
We should carpet bomb the middle east with explosive suicide belts so that within a few months, everyone would be blown up. But where's Allah going to get all the virgins? I didn't know that the middle east even had any!


----------



## logical4u (Sep 15, 2009)

mystic said:


> Liability said:
> 
> 
> > Sunni Man said:
> ...



If you have read the quran, have you read the Bible?  Have you noted the conflicts between the two books?  Do you realize Mohammed claims to have the same source as the One in the Bible?  Yet, the quran is full of conflicting statements with the Bible and its prophets.  
Islam claims it is educated, yet it does almost nothing to improve the standard of living for any of its followers.  It destroys artifacts that demonstrate its falsehoods.  It will not consider any books, not of islam origins.  How can it claim it is a religion of peace when it gives islam enemies no opportunity to repent?


----------



## logical4u (Sep 15, 2009)

mystic said:


> Liability said:
> 
> 
> > I was half-inclined to respond to you a bit more civilly,
> ...


----------



## Kalam (Sep 15, 2009)

BigBarry said:


> Islam is a more racist religion that even judaism,


Islam is diametrically opposed to racism.

_O People! Listen to my words, for I do not know whether we shall ever meet again and perform Hajj after this year. O Ye people! Allah says, O people We created you from one male and one female and made you into tribes and nations, so as to be known to one another. Verily in the sight of Allah, the most honoured amongst you is the one who is most God-fearing _(The Qur'an, 49:13.)_ *There is no superiority for an Arab over a non-Arab and for a non-Arab over an Arab, nor for the white over the black nor for the black over the white except in God-conciousness.*

All mankind is the progeny of Adam and Adam was fashioned out of clay. Behold;* every claim of privilage whether that of blood or property, is under my heels* except that of the custody of the Kabah and supplying of water to the pilgrims, O people of Quraish, dont appear (on the Day of Judgement) with the burden of this world around your necks, whereas other people may appear (before the Lord) with the rewards of the hereafter. In that case I shall avail you naught against Allah._ 

- Muhammad, The Final Sermon.​


----------



## Kalam (Sep 15, 2009)

logical4u said:


> If you have read the quran, have you read the Bible?  Have you noted the conflicts between the two books?  Do you realize Mohammed claims to have the same source as the One in the Bible?  Yet, the quran is full of conflicting statements with the Bible and its prophets.


That's because, as I've explained, no care was taken to preserve the Bible and prevent it from being corrupted at the hands of men. The Qur'an was delivered to correct the errors of the Bible, and history indicates that the Qur'an has remained unaltered. 



logical4u said:


> Islam claims it is educated, yet it does almost nothing to improve the standard of living for any of its followers.


According to whose standard? Who represents "Islam"? Why should we assume that the religion is properly adhered to by all of those who claim to believe in it?

Some of the accomplishments of Islam:
Inventions of the Islamic Golden Age - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia




logical4u said:


> It destroys artifacts that demonstrate its falsehoods.


?



logical4u said:


> It will not consider any books, not of islam origins.


My guess is that I've read more "non-Islamic" books than the overwhelming majority of non-Muslims. 



logical4u said:


> How can it claim it is a religion of peace when it gives islam enemies no opportunity to repent?


You'd do well to study the religion before attempting to criticize it...

_Except those who *repent *and amend and make manifest (the truth), these it is to whom I turn; and I am the Oft-returning, the Merciful._ - 2:160

_Except those who *repent *after that and amend, for surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful._ - 3:89

_And as for the two of you who are guilty of it, give them both a slight punishment; then if they *repent *and amend, turn aside from them. Surely Allah is ever Oft-returning, the Merciful._ - 4:16

_But whoever *repents *after his wrongdoing and reforms, Allah will turn to him. Surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful._ - 5:39

_And those who do evil deeds, then *repent *after that and believe -- thy Lord after that is surely Forgiving, Merciful._ - 7:153

_But if they *repent *and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, they are your brethren in faith. And We make the messages clear for a people who know._ - 9:11

_Know they not that Allah is He Who accepts *repentance *from His servants and takes the alms, and that Allah -- He is the Oft-returning, the Merciful?_ - 9:104

_Except those who *repent *and believe and do good -- such will enter the Garden, and they will not be wronged in aught._ - 19:60

_And surely I am Forgiving toward him who *repents *and believes and does good, then walks aright._ - 20:82

_Except those who afterwards *repent *and act aright; surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful._ - 24:5

_Except him who *repents *and believes and does good deeds; for such Allah changes their evil deeds to good ones. And Allah is ever Forgiving, Merciful. And whoever repents and does good, he surely turns to Allah a turning._ - 25:70-71

_But as to him who *repents *and believes and does good, maybe he will be among the successful._ - 28:67

_And He it is Who accepts *repentance *from his servants and *pardons *evil deeds, and He knows what you do._ - 42:25
​


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## Kalam (Sep 15, 2009)

logical4u said:


> Maybe because islam is similar to communism: great theory for someone else to live by, but when it comes to adhering to the rules for individuals, they really aren't interested.  The 'leaders' will pretend to practice the lifestyle in public, but when out of view, it is a different story.  They will force their followers/subjects to live by their ideals; it keeps them in power.



This description is fundamentally inaccurate; The Islamic religion itself has no "leaders" and hasn't since 632 CE.


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## Mr.Fitnah (Sep 20, 2009)

Kalam said:


> logical4u said:
> 
> 
> > Maybe because islam is similar to communism: great theory for someone else to live by, but when it comes to adhering to the rules for individuals, they really aren't interested.  The 'leaders' will pretend to practice the lifestyle in public, but when out of view, it is a different story.  They will force their followers/subjects to live by their ideals; it keeps them in power.
> ...



bayah can  be given to  any leader a muslims chooses to pledge allegiance to ,as long as it does not involve disobedience towards Allaah.


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## Mr.Fitnah (Sep 20, 2009)

Kalam said:


> Mr.Fitnah said:
> 
> 
> > I agree the Quran warns muslims to be truthful with other muslims' none muslims is a different story.
> ...




Thanks for asking 
These ayat set the conditions for taqiyya.

3:28. Let not the believers take the disbelievers as Auliyâ (supporters, helpers, etc.) instead of the believers, and whoever does that will never be helped by Allâh in any way, except if you indeed fear a danger from them. And Allâh warns you against Himself (His Punishment)[], and to Allâh is the final return.

2:173. He has forbidden you only the Maytatah (dead animals), and blood, and the flesh of swine, and that which is slaughtered as a scrifice for others than Allâh (or has been slaughtered for idols, etc., on which Allâh's Name has not been mentioned while slaughtering). But if one is forced by necessity without wilful disobedience nor transgressing due limits, then there is no sin on him. Truly, Allâh is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.

2:185. The month of Ramadân in which was revealed the Qur'ân, a guidance for mankind and clear proofs for the guidance and the criterion (between right and wrong). So whoever of you sights (the crescent on the first night of) the month (of Ramadân i.e. is present at his home), he must observe Saum (fasts) that month, and whoever is ill or on a journey, the same number [of days which one did not observe Saum (fasts) must be made up] from other days. Allâh intends for you ease, and He does not want to make things difficult for you. (He wants that you) must complete the same number (of days), and that you must magnify Allâh [i.e. to say Takbîr (Allâhu-Akbar; Allâh is the Most Great) on seeing the crescent of the months of Ramadân and Shawwâl] for having guided you so that you may be grateful to Him.

4:26. Allâh wishes to make clear (what is lawful and what is unlawful) to you, and to show you the ways of those before you, and accept your repentance, and Allâh is All Knower, All Wise.

16:116. And say not concerning that which your tongues put forth falsely: "This is lawful and this is forbidden," so as to invent lies against Allâh. Verily, those who invent lies against Allâh will never prosper.

22:78. And strive hard in Allâh's Cause as you ought to strive (with sincerity and with all your efforts that His Name should be superior). He has chosen you (to convey His Message of Islâmic Monotheism to mankind by inviting them to His religion, Islâm), and has not laid upon you in religion any hardship,[] it is the religion of your father Ibrahim (Abraham) (Islâmic Monotheism). It is He (Allâh) Who has named you Muslims both before and in this (the Qur'ân), that the Messenger (Muhammad SAW) may be a witness over you and you be witnesses over mankind![] So perform As Salât (Iqamat-as-Salât), give Zakât and hold fast to Allâh [i.e. have confidence in Allâh, and depend upon Him in all your affairs] He is your Maula (Patron, Lord, etc.), what an Excellent Maula (Patron, Lord, etc.) and what an Excellent Helper!

40:28. And a believing man of Fir'aun's (Pharaoh) family, who hid his faith said: "Would you kill a man because he says: My Lord is Allâh, and he has come to you with clear signs (proofs) from your Lord? And if he is a liar, upon him will be (the sin of) his lie; but if he is telling the truth, then some of that (calamity) wherewith he threatens you will befall on you." Verily, Allâh guides not one who is a Musrif (a polytheist, or a murderer who shed blood without a right, or those who commit great sins, oppressor, transgressor), a liar!


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## Mr.Fitnah (Sep 20, 2009)

Liability said:


> mystic said:
> 
> 
> > Liability said:
> ...


It  is easy to get carried away by emotion, it is best to try to say on track.

Many muslims like to say " Islam forbids the killing of innocent people"
Please provide Islamic scripture to prove unequivocally non muslims are innocent.


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## Kalam (Sep 20, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> 3:28. Let not the believers take the disbelievers as Auliyâ (supporters, helpers, etc.) instead of the believers, and whoever does that will never be helped by Allâh in any way, except if you indeed fear a danger from them. And Allâh warns you against Himself (His Punishment)[], and to Allâh is the final return.


Absolutely no reference is made here to dishonesty, explicit or implicit. Moreover, this verse is conditional and applies only to those believers who disrespect Islam and oppress Muslims. Clarification is offered in 60:7-8. 



Mr.Fitnah said:


> 2:173. He has forbidden you only the Maytatah (dead animals), and blood, and the flesh of swine, and that which is slaughtered as a scrifice for others than Allâh (or has been slaughtered for idols, etc., on which Allâh's Name has not been mentioned while slaughtering). But if one is forced by necessity without wilful disobedience nor transgressing due limits, then there is no sin on him. Truly, Allâh is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.


Here, Muslims are allowed to eat food that isn't halal if they're starving and no other food is available. Again, no reference is made to dishonesty or even disbelievers. Moving on...



Mr.Fitnah said:


> 2:185.


The nonsensical attempts at clarification provided by the author(s) of your translation render this verse indecipherable. I'll reproduce it here using a coherent translation:

_Ramadan is the month in which the Qur'an was revealed as guidance to man and clear proof of the guidance, and criterion. So when you see the new moon you should fast the whole month; but a person who is ill or travelling should fast on other days, as God wishes ease and not hardship for you, so that you complete the number, and give glory to God for the guidance, and be grateful._​
Yet again, no references are made to dishonesty or disbelievers. Muslims who are ill or traveling are permitted to fast in accordance with their needs as long as they make up for any shortcomings whenever doing so becomes possible. I'm not even sure that you're reading these passages before you post them.



Mr.Fitnah said:


> 4:26. Allâh wishes to make clear (what is lawful and what is unlawful) to you, and to show you the ways of those before you, and accept your repentance, and Allâh is All Knower, All Wise.


...OK. Clearly, your method of interpretation is very esoteric. Would you please highlight any references to the permissibility of lying in this passage for the benefit of those of us with lesser minds?



Mr.Fitnah said:


> 16:116. And say not concerning that which your tongues put forth falsely: "This is lawful and this is forbidden," so as to invent lies against Allâh. Verily, those who invent lies against Allâh will never prosper.





There are very few people who would point to a passage that specifically condemns lying as proof that Islam permits dishonesty towards unbelievers. Congratulations. 



Mr.Fitnah said:


> 22:78


_Strive in the way of God with a service worthy of Him. He has chosen you and laid no hardship on you in the way of faith, the faith of your forbear Abraham. He named you Muslim earlier, and in this (Qur'an), in order that the Prophet be witness over you, and you be witness over mankind. So be firm in devotion, pay the zakat, and hold on firmly to God. He is your friend: How excellent a friend is He, how excellent a helper!​_
0 for 6. I'm sure you just posted a bunch if unrelated passages to get my guard down. Certainly, the final passage you cite will knock my argument out of the park. Let's see:



Mr.Fitnah said:


> 40:28.



_And a believing man of Firon's people who hid his faith said: What! will you slay a man because he says: My Lord is Allah, and indeed he has brought to you clear arguments from your Lord? And if he be a liar, on him will be his lie, and if he be truthful, there will befall you some of that which he threatens you (with); surely Allah does not guide him who is extravagant, a liar:_​
Oh, wow. 

_*surely Allah does not guide him who is extravagant, a liar

surely Allah does not guide him who is extravagant, a liar

surely Allah does not guide him who is extravagant, a liar*_​
Let's remind ourselves that this is a passage from a verse that _you_ pointed to as evidence that lying is permissible. Let the irony sink in. You, sir, are truly an idiot and a detriment to intelligent critics of Islam everywhere. Good day.


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## Kalam (Sep 20, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> Kalam said:
> 
> 
> > logical4u said:
> ...



A pledge of allegiance to any person who is not one of Allah's messengers is an expression of disobedience towards Allah SWT. The Qur'an makes it clear that believers are to govern themselves through consultation (42:38.) Autocratic forms of government involve taking people for lords other than Allah SWT, _shirk_.


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## BigBarry (Sep 20, 2009)

kalam do you believe man was made out of play-doh too?

"Behold! thy Lord said To the angels: 'I am about To create man, from sounding clay From mud moulded into shape; 'When I have fashioned him (In due proportion) and breathed Into him of My spirit, Fall ye down in obeisance Unto him.' (The Noble Quran, 15:28-29)"


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## Kalam (Sep 20, 2009)

BigBarry said:


> kalam do you believe man was made out of play-doh too?
> 
> "Behold! thy Lord said To the angels: 'I am about To create man, from sounding clay From mud moulded into shape; 'When I have fashioned him (In due proportion) and breathed Into him of My spirit, Fall ye down in obeisance Unto him.' (The Noble Quran, 15:28-29)"



Not really. 

_And these parables, We set them forth for men, and none understand them but the learned._ - 29:43​


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## BigBarry (Sep 20, 2009)

Kalam said:


> BigBarry said:
> 
> 
> > kalam do you believe man was made out of play-doh too?
> ...



What does that mean? More like silly putty? 

Please explain. Or do you not follow the kornran?


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## Mr.Fitnah (Sep 20, 2009)

Kalam said:


> Mr.Fitnah said:
> 
> 
> > 3:28. Let not the believers take the disbelievers as Auliyâ (supporters, helpers, etc.) instead of the believers, and whoever does that will never be helped by Allâh in any way, except if you indeed fear a danger from them. And Allâh warns you against Himself (His Punishment)[], and to Allâh is the final return.
> ...


Thanks for providing more opportunity to reveal the facts .
As typical you fail to produce any scholarly judgment to back up your assertions , You fail to use the available knowledge the ulema uses to judge and make legal decisions .
A much fuller application of Islamic text is required to render authoritative opinion.
Here is a  short example of your failure to grasp what is used and how legal decisions are found with in Islam scripture.
3:28
Tafsir.com Tafsir Ibn Kathir
_*Accepting dissimulation is right and necessary, based on wisdom. Because on one side, preserving the life, property and reputation is necessary and on the other side, manifesting one&#8217;s belief and following it, are all religious duties. So when a person is choosing one of those obligatory duties, he should give precedence to the most important one, according to wisdom.
Actually religious dissimulation is considered as weapon for the weak against evil-doers. It is obvious that if there was not any danger, a man would not hide his belief and would not act against his own faith. Based on the clarification of Quran in the story of &#8216;Ammaar Yaaser; a person who is captured by wrong-doers, for being saved, can say blasphemous words &#8211;while his heart remains in his belief-. (1)
In another verse, the believers have been prohibited to not appoint a disbeliever as their Wali (leader), and he who does that will be far from God, unless by the way of dissimulation. (2)
Mentioning this verse, the commentators consensually say that the principle of religious dissimulation is legitimate, and he who is familiar with jurisprudential and exegetical sources, will realize that dissimulation is one of Islamic principles and those mentioned verses in Quran cannot be ignored; one of Pharaoh's people, who was in secret a believer (3). Concerning the recent verse, none of people can deny the religious dissimulation (Al-taqiyya).​*_
shi'a questions-Islamic Beliefs-innovation in religion-Religious dissimulation (al-Taqiyya)

The referance to  16:116 was a typo the text I intended to  quote was 16:106

16:106. Whoever disbelieved in Allâh after his belief, except him who is forced thereto and whose heart is at rest with Faith but such as open their breasts to disbelief, on them is wrath from Allâh, and theirs will be a great torment.

War is deceit

 By Allah, and Allah willing, if I take an oath and later find something else better than that. then I do what is better and expiate my oath.' "

CRCC: Center For Muslim-Jewish Engagement: Resources: Religious Texts

 If you ever take an oath to do something and later on you find that something else is better, then you should expiate your oath and do what is better."

CRCC: Center For Muslim-Jewish Engagement: Resources: Religious Texts
CRCC: Center For Muslim-Jewish Engagement: Resources: Religious Texts


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## Mr.Fitnah (Sep 20, 2009)

BigBarry said:


> Kalam said:
> 
> 
> > BigBarry said:
> ...


"kalam"  is a cafeteria muslims picking and choosing  this and that.
Tafsir.com Tafsir Ibn Kathir


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## Mr.Fitnah (Sep 20, 2009)

Makr Makr signifies a secret strategy of which the victim has no inkling until the decisive blow is struck. Until then, the victim is under the illusion that everything is in good order. See Holy Qur'an, Aali-Imran (3:54).


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## Sunni Man (Sep 20, 2009)

As usual Mr. Fitnuts, you are try to make this verse into something that it is not.

*Qur'an 3:54: They plotted and schemed, but so did GOD, and GOD is the best schemer. *

It is a part of some verses talking about the people who were hatching a plot to kill Jesus.

The verse is saying that bad people will plot and scheme evil things,

but God will always out smart them with a better scheme to foil their plans.


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## BigBarry (Sep 20, 2009)

Islamists are all made out of clay, isn't that right, you fucking retard towelhead?


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## Mr.Fitnah (Sep 20, 2009)

sunni man said:


> as usual mr. Fitnuts, you are try to make this verse into something that it is not.
> 
> *qur'an 3:54: They plotted and schemed, but so did god, and god is the best schemer. *
> 
> ...


The verse reveals the mendacious nature of  mohammad and allah.


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## ABikerSailor (Sep 20, 2009)

IsLAME forbids any kind of logic or reasoning.

Reflected by the education system in MusLAME countries.........all they read is the korn-ham.


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## Sunni Man (Sep 20, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> sunni man said:
> 
> 
> > as usual mr. Fitnuts, you are try to make this verse into something that it is not.
> ...



Just because you learned a new word Mr. Fitnuts.

Is still no excuse for taking verses out of context and putting a false spin on their meaning.


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## Mr.Fitnah (Sep 20, 2009)

Glossary of Islamic Terms: M

Makr Makr signifies a secret strategy of which the victim has no inkling until the decisive blow is struck. Until then, the victim is under the illusion that everything is in good order. See Holy Qur'an, Aali-Imran (3:54).


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## ABikerSailor (Sep 20, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> Glossary of Islamic Terms: M
> 
> Makr Makr signifies a secret strategy of which the victim has no inkling until the decisive blow is struck. Until then, the victim is under the illusion that everything is in good order. See Holy Qur'an, Aali-Imran (3:54).



Sounds an awful lot like lying to me.  

Hey.........didn't the God of Abraham state "thou shalt not bear false witness"?


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## Sunni Man (Sep 20, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> Glossary of Islamic Terms: M
> 
> Makr Makr signifies a secret strategy of which the victim has no inkling until the decisive blow is struck. Until then, the victim is under the illusion that everything is in good order. See Holy Qur'an, Aali-Imran (3:54).


The evil men were hatching a plot and scheme (makr) to capture and kill Jesus.

But the Qur'an says that God came up with a better idea and foiled their makr. (plot)

It's basically saying that no one can out smart God.


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## Mr.Fitnah (Sep 20, 2009)

Sunni Man said:


> Mr.Fitnah said:
> 
> 
> > Glossary of Islamic Terms: M
> ...


Not even Mohammad,as the future will  prove.


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## Sunni Man (Sep 20, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> > Mr.Fitnah said:
> ...


Muhammad was just a man.

He never claimed to be as smart or smarter than God


----------



## Mr.Fitnah (Sep 20, 2009)

Mohammed's Islamic scheme to have Islam as the  only legal religion  would remove  the salvation in Christ from the world as God  has planned  . He will not succeed .


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## Sunni Man (Sep 20, 2009)

Islam is growing at a rapid rate all over the world.

As Christianity continues to embrace secularism it becomes void of true spirituality.

Islam fills the gap for moderm people with it's timeless revelations from God.


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## BigBarry (Sep 20, 2009)

Sunni, are all muslims made out of clay, or is it just you?


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## Kalam (Sep 20, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> Thanks for providing more opportunity to reveal the facts .
> As typical you fail to produce any scholarly judgment to back up your assertions , You fail to use the available knowledge the ulema uses to judge and make legal decisions .
> A much fuller application of Islamic text is required to render authoritative opinion.
> Here is a  short example of your failure to grasp what is used and how legal decisions are found with in Islam scripture.



You're right - I don't find it necessary to turn to legal opinions written centuries after the revelation of the Qur'an when I can read the book itself and see that dishonesty clearly isn't permitted. 

Let's remind ourselves of what was said in a passage that you cited in one of your strokes of brilliance:

_"...surely Allah does not guide him who is extravagant, a liar."_ - 40:28

Dumbass.


----------



## Kalam (Sep 20, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> "kalam"  is a cafeteria muslims picking and choosing  this and that.
> Tafsir.com Tafsir Ibn Kathir



I'm sure it would be convenient for you if that was the case.


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## BigBarry (Sep 21, 2009)

Sunni Man said:


> Islam is growing at a rapid rate all over the world.
> 
> As Christianity continues to embrace secularism it becomes void of true spirituality.
> 
> Islam fills the gap for moderm people with it's *timeless revelations from God*.



Ya, Allah made us out of clay. 
So then gumby and pokey were the first 2 people on earth?


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## Mr.Fitnah (Sep 22, 2009)

Many muslims like to say " Islam forbids the killing of innocent people"
Please provide Islamic scripture to prove unequivocally non muslims are innocent.


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## ABikerSailor (Sep 22, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> Many muslims like to say " Islam forbids the killing of innocent people"
> Please provide Islamic scripture to prove unequivocally non muslims are innocent.



Yep...........in your fucked up IsLAME theology, it's either "convert or die". 

Nice to see such a black and white view of the world.  Are we all going to be 3rd world, or just the "holy" sites of IsLAME?

You MusLAMES do realize that the start of your line was Hagar and her son Ishmael, right?  You also realize that she was an Egyptian princess as well who was given to Sarah and Abraham as a handmaiden as well?

My guess is, that when she was kicked out of the tribe of Abraham for being exceedingly disrespectful to Sarah, the reason she hid Ishmael in the bushes wasn't so much that she didn't want to watch him die (remember, by this time he was a teenager), but rather because she didn't want her son (who only knew HaShem, the God of Abraham) to see her revert back to her pagan Egyptian ways and start praying to an Egyptian god, as her son would have probably stopped her.

No wonder IsLAME is so fucked up.  Allah (may his name forever be a curse.......ptooie), isn't so much a demon as he is an Egyptian deity, and therefore not the One True God.


----------



## JW Frogen (Sep 22, 2009)

Islam is ok.

Just don't take it too seriously, it is like one of those 1970s Sid and Marty Kroft shows. (Sid and Marty Kroft were the Mozart of the 1970s)

Indeed Sid and Marty Kroft could have invented Islam.


H. R. Allahstuff H.R.Allahstuf, 
Who's your friend when things get rough? 
H.R. Allahstuf,
Can't do a little cause he kill enough. 

Once upon a summertime 
Just a dream from yesterday 
A man and his magic Arc Angel 
Heard a voice from off his head 
"Come and play with me, Mohammed 
Come and play with me. 
And I will take you on a trip 
Far across insanity." 

But the voice belonged to a kooky old God 
Who had in mind our reason to flog
From Allah's terror in the sky 
Mohammed watched Allah's plans materialize 
Allah waved his wand 
And all thought was gone 
The skies grew dark 
The sea grew rough 
And the martyrs cried death on and on and on and on and on and on. 

Ready to set off another suicide bomb!!!!!

H.R. Allahstuff, 
Who's your friend when things get rough? 
H.R. Allahstuff 
Can't do a little cause he can't kill enough.


----------



## Fatality (Sep 22, 2009)

ABikerSailor said:


> Mr.Fitnah said:
> 
> 
> > Many muslims like to say " Islam forbids the killing of innocent people"
> ...



Mr Fitnah is not a muslim

as for the rest of what you posted, well its a mish mash of fabrication and ignorance


----------



## ABikerSailor (Sep 22, 2009)

Really?  That's the story from the Torah.  Might wanna check again numb nuts.


----------



## Fatality (Sep 22, 2009)

ABikerSailor said:


> Really?  That's the story from the Torah.  Might wanna check again numb nuts.



no, that was the story from your pea sized brain.


----------



## ABikerSailor (Sep 22, 2009)

Tell ya what........prove me wrong, I've got several rabbis that will verify.

Ever hear of the Universal Torah Network?  How's about Hidden in the Hebrew on GLC?

Might wanna study up before engaging bullshit mode.


----------



## Fatality (Sep 22, 2009)

ABikerSailor said:


> Tell ya what........prove me wrong, I've got several rabbis that will verify.
> 
> Ever hear of the Universal Torah Network?  How's about Hidden in the Hebrew on GLC?
> 
> Might wanna study up before engaging bullshit mode.



i care not from what source your lunacy is derived.


----------



## ABikerSailor (Sep 22, 2009)

Fatality said:


> ABikerSailor said:
> 
> 
> > Tell ya what........prove me wrong, I've got several rabbis that will verify.
> ...



So, in other words, you don't have anything to refute it, so you won't try.

Nice variation of sour grapes ya fucking pussy Fertility.


----------



## Fatality (Sep 22, 2009)

ABikerSailor said:


> Fatality said:
> 
> 
> > ABikerSailor said:
> ...



seriously your post was like the ramblings of a Gallup drunk


----------



## Mr.Fitnah (Sep 22, 2009)

ABikerSailor said:


> Mr.Fitnah said:
> 
> 
> > Many muslims like to say " Islam forbids the killing of innocent people"
> ...


1.Im not a muslim.
2 Mohmmad cannot trace line line back to Abraham.


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## Sunni Man (Sep 23, 2009)

The Qur'an doesn't list the genealogy of Muhammad.

But it does imply that the Arabs are descended through Ishmael from Abraham.

Either way, it really makes no difference.


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## Mr.Fitnah (Sep 23, 2009)

Sunni Man said:


> The Qur'an doesn't list the genealogy of Muhammad.
> 
> But it does imply that the Arabs are descended through Ishmael from Abraham.
> 
> Either way, it really makes no difference.



Then the Quran's implication is factually wrong.


----------



## Sunni Man (Sep 23, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> > The Qur'an doesn't list the genealogy of Muhammad.
> ...


That is a very idiotic statement  Mr. Fitnuts  

How can an implication of something be factually wrong???


----------



## Mr.Fitnah (Sep 23, 2009)

Sunni Man said:


> Mr.Fitnah said:
> 
> 
> > Sunni Man said:
> ...


Let me be plain.

"A. L. R. These are the Ayats of Revelation,- of a Qur'an that makes things clear (qur-anin mubeenin). " [15:1]

"We have not instructed the (Prophet) in Poetry, nor is it meet for him: this is no less than a Message and a Qur'an making things clear: (qur-anun mubeenun)" [36:69]

The Quran is factually wrong.


----------



## Liability (Sep 23, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> > Mr.Fitnah said:
> ...



It is crystal clear to anyone using honesty and reason that the Qur'an is muddled and makes nothing clear.

Since it claims to make things clear, it is also not just factually wrong, but dishonest.

It is clear that the Qur'an is unclear.


----------



## PixieStix (Sep 24, 2009)

Islam forbids using video at the festivals of recruiting


[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fEPod-hxD7g]YouTube - Arab Festival 2009: Sharia in the US[/ame]


----------



## PixieStix (Sep 24, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> Many muslims like to say " Islam forbids the killing of innocent people"
> Please provide Islamic scripture to prove unequivocally non muslims are innocent.


 
They still have not, because it is impossible.


----------



## Intense (Sep 25, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> > Mr. Fitnah
> ...



I remember the first time I read a post like that from you, and misinterpreted your intent. 

You have of course nailed it.

For All Muslims out there that have not come to this bridge yet, consider two things. 

1). Putting God First in All things means exactly that. That includes Our Own Understandings, our own perspective, even teachings and learned behavior.

2). Accepting this may very well target You and put Your life at risk.

We All are born with original Sin. That does not paint a target on our backs, like some teach, there are no innocents, all is fair game. This is a False Premise. Thou Shall not Kill.


----------



## Fatality (Sep 25, 2009)

xotoxi said:


> JenT said:
> 
> 
> > Just discussing the facts, Xotoxi, I believe imams are supposed to be obeyed, and in a little more compelling terms than say a Christian to a priest. What I wrote prior to this post had nothing to do wtih my opinion, did it?
> ...



God is giving you the hand up, he offers you eternal life, why do you refuse to live? why are you like adam and eve, why is it your pathological choice to eat the fruit of death? why do you hate the very one who could bring you to life?

the after life, eternal life or eternal death its your choice, no one can force it on you, you can remain in death or you can accept Gods free gift of life.

oh, and the whole eternaly consciouss burning in hell thing, thats one of..oh, i dunno, four possible views.

the end result of all though is that you will recieve an eternal punishment, in other words one that will never be reveresed or end. that may very well be eternal non-existance. you will be dead, and dead forever, no consciousness, nothing, you will cease to exist. I am going to live, I will continue forever.

but what it comes down to is that you dont give a rats ass about what happens after you die regardless of what the bible says. you have your mind made up, and youre only pointing fingers because you think you have a superior position...but you dont.

John 3:16 "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life."

Romans 10:9-10
That if you will confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus, and will believe in your heart that God has raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.

dont believe? thats your choice, what happens after this life? you dont care. so throw the book into the trash and go dance along to happyfuntimecupcakeland, or turn to God and accept eternal life.


----------



## Liability (Sep 25, 2009)

xotoxi said:


> JenT said:
> 
> 
> > Just discussing the facts, Xotoxi, I believe imams are supposed to be obeyed, and in a little more compelling terms than say a Christian to a priest. What I wrote prior to this post had nothing to do wtih my opinion, did it?
> ...



Not to intrude unduly (since I am not particularly religious) but, if one is violently and savagely and brutally and excruciatingly put to death by the Muslims and then, according to the Qur'an, the person so executed is destined to spend eternity being viciously and savagely tormented in hell, then your question kinda answers itself.   At least if one goes the Christian route, the whole excruciating being put to death thing on Earth while we yet live is avoided.

And besides, if one believes in Christiantity, one can avoid that whole damnation thing simply by accepting the "gift" offered by Jesus.


----------



## The T (Sep 25, 2009)

Intense said:


> Mr.Fitnah said:
> 
> 
> > Sunni Man said:
> ...


 
Not to dispute you or anything as such, but that Commandment has been Mis-Intrerpreted. Actually it reads more like "Thou shalt not _Murder_".

Murder is in Cold blood of innocents. To kilk say for the sake of defending one's self, or Family is entirely permitted for the sake of perserving the lives of innocents.

Murder speaks of intent to intentionally do harm with malice of forethought.

There is a line here in my view. What the Muslim thuggery does is done with extreme malice of forethought to innocents.


----------



## Intense (Sep 25, 2009)

The T said:


> Intense said:
> 
> 
> > Mr.Fitnah said:
> ...



Self Defense and Service are Givens. I Totally Agree provided they are Justified by Circumstance.


----------



## ABikerSailor (Sep 25, 2009)

The T said:


> Intense said:
> 
> 
> > Mr.Fitnah said:
> ...



Interestingly enough, the rest of the Commandments are there to keep you from getting murdered.......

Thou shalt not steal - if you steal, someone is gonna wanna kill you.

Thou shalt not bear false witness (lie) - if you lie, someone may want to kill you.

Thou shalt not covet - if you get jealous enough of someone, you may end up wanting to kill them.

Thou shalt not commit adultery - if you cheat with someone's significant other, they'll want to kill you.

Honor thy father and mother - they brought you into this world, they can take you out.

Remember the Sabbath and keep it holy - take a break once in a while to keep from killing yourself with stress.

Basically, the 10 Commandments are there to keep us all from being killed.  Same with the first 3, because a false idol can't help you at, and, if you don't remember who HaShem is, then it's kinda hard to ask Him for help.


----------



## Intense (Sep 25, 2009)

ABikerSailor said:


> The T said:
> 
> 
> > Intense said:
> ...



More than that, but it does fit. Positive Direction is a Power in Itself.


----------



## Mr.Fitnah (Sep 25, 2009)

Mt 22:36 &#8220;[Jesus], which is the great commandment in the law?&#8221; And he said to him, &#8217;You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind. This is the great and first commandment. And a second is like it, You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments depend all the law and the prophets.&#8221;


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## Mr.Fitnah (Sep 25, 2009)

Many muslims like to say " Islam forbids the killing of innocent people"
Please provide Islamic scripture to prove unequivocally non muslims are innocent.


----------



## Intense (Sep 26, 2009)

From the Catholic, on Original Sin.

Meaning
Original sin may be taken to mean: (1) the sin that Adam committed; (2) a consequence of this first sin, the hereditary stain with which we are born on account of our origin or descent from Adam. 

From the earliest times the latter sense of the word was more common, as may be seen by St. Augustine's statement: "the deliberate sin of the first man is the cause of original sin" (De nupt. et concup., II, xxvi, 43). It is the hereditary stain that is dealt with here. As to the sin of Adam we have not to examine the circumstances in which it was committed nor make the exegesis of the third chapter of Genesis. 

CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Original Sin


----------



## Mr.Fitnah (Sep 28, 2009)

Kalam said:


> Mr.Fitnah said:
> 
> 
> > Islam/"kalam" justifies theft.
> ...




Is there an Arabic word for these oppressors ?

http://www.answering-christianity.c...1&rodwell=1&transliteration=1&all=1&B1=Search

Seems there is little doubt as to the use of the word oppressor in  

this verse.
In the Arabic  the  word is *Zâlimûn*
Polytheists and wrong-doers and unjust.

The Noble 

Quran's Search Results:

Apparently  the same arabic word is used to describe oppersors  in 

2:193  and  2:254



Quraan Transliteration

*That means disbelief is oppresion*


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## Mr.Fitnah (Sep 28, 2009)

We can conclude that  disbelief is oppression and according to "kalam" oppressors lives and property  are forfeit


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## Fatality (Sep 28, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> We can conclude that  disbelief is oppression and according to "kalam" oppressors lives and property  are forfeit



wwjsd

what would Jan III Sobieski do


----------



## Mr.Fitnah (Sep 28, 2009)

That was funny.


----------



## mal (Sep 29, 2009)

This Thread is... Epic. 

Excellent Work, Infidels!



peace...


----------



## Mr.Fitnah (Sep 29, 2009)

Things dont look good  for the disbelievers .

And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and worshipping of others along with All&#257;h) and (all and every kind of) worship is for All&#257;h (Alone). But if they cease, *let there be no transgression except against Az-Z&#257;limûn* (the polytheists, and wrong-doers, etc.) (Al-Baqarah 2:193)

O you who believe! Spend of that with which We have provided for you, before a Day comes when there will be no bargaining, nor friendship, nor intercession. And it is the *disbelievers who are the Z&#257;limûn* (wrong-doers, etc.). (Al-Baqarah 2:254)

Quraan Transliteration


----------



## Mr.Fitnah (Sep 29, 2009)

KingKonga said:


> All muslims are going to hell, who cares what they think?


Since the religion calls for my death , I think people should know that.


----------



## Intense (Sep 29, 2009)

So how is Islams Quest for World Domination Faring Today?  How far along is the Conquest of Europe?  England is allowing Sharia Law, in some areas?


----------



## Mr.Fitnah (Sep 29, 2009)

Intense said:


> So how is Islams Quest for World Domination Faring Today?  How far along is the Conquest of Europe?  England is allowing Sharia Law, in some areas?



The Jihad continues.


----------



## Intense (Sep 29, 2009)

I have my Crucifix and Holy Water.


----------



## Kalam (Sep 29, 2009)

Why you insist on pasting duplicate arguments all around the forum is beyond me. I responded to your nonsense on the other thread; continue the discussion there.


----------



## Mr.Fitnah (Sep 29, 2009)

Kalam said:


> Why you insist on pasting duplicate arguments all around the forum is beyond me. I responded to your nonsense on the other thread; continue the discussion there.


That discussion has fulfilled it purpose to the extent  you reveal disbelievers are oppressors,
 I provided valid reasons to ignore MM Alis fallacious arguments .
You may not promote heretical views of Islam as mainstream Islam unchallenged .
I will post what I wish where  and when I wish to suit my purpose ,Your purpose is a tool to help reveal Islam true nature.


----------



## Kalam (Sep 29, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> Kalam said:
> 
> 
> > Why you insist on pasting duplicate arguments all around the forum is beyond me. I responded to your nonsense on the other thread; continue the discussion there.
> ...



It's amusing that you think your significance here transcends your role as a punching bag for people who actually know what they're talking about. 

You don't bring anything to the table; you cut and paste opinions from extremists, insist that they're the only correct interpretation of a religion you know nothing about, and respond to any criticism by cutting and pasting the same arguments. God forbid you actually respond to my posts... or learn how to spell properly.


----------



## Mr.Fitnah (Sep 29, 2009)

You forget your place.


----------



## Mr.Fitnah (Sep 29, 2009)

Many muslims like to say " Islam forbids the killing of innocent people"
Please provide Islamic scripture to prove unequivocally non muslims are innocent.


----------



## Freeman (Sep 30, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> Many muslims like to say " Islam forbids the killing of innocent people"
> Please provide Islamic scripture to prove unequivocally non muslims are innocent.



can you provide a proof that innocent people must be a target in islam?

you havn't provide one proof


----------



## Intense (Sep 30, 2009)

Bangladesh: Christian convert from Islam and his family get death threats from Misunderstanders of Islam
As everyone knows, the idea that "Islam orders a violent end for those who leave the faith" is just "bigoted nonsense." Unfortunately, somehow these Muslims in Bangladesh, like so many other Muslims all over the world, have fallen prey to this bigoted nonsense, misunderstood their tolerant faith, and actually threatened to kill this Muslim who converted to Christianity. I expect that Michael Kruse and Meredith Heagney will be on the next plane to Dhaka, ready to explain to these Muslims how they are getting Islam all wrong, wrong, wrong.

"Christian convert from Islam and family threatened with death," from AsiaNews, September 30 (thanks to C. Cantoni):

Dhaka (AsiaNews) - William Gomes, a Catholic convert from Islam, is in mortal danger. For the past several days he has been the target of Muslim extremists who want to kill him because of his new faith. On 25 September he had to flee his home to escape from a group of Islamic militants who wanted to kill him and his family (wife and child), setting fire to their house. After Friday prayers at a mosque nearby, a group of fanatics had asked the leaders of their mosque to decide on the fate of the young man and the penalty to be inflicted on him.


A freelance journalist and human rights activist, married to a Catholic and father of a child, Gomes had recently received threats, but on September 25, his accusers passed from words to deeds. Led by Nazmi Mohammed Uddin Titu, a local leader of the Chatra League movement of young Muslims, a group marched on the house of the young man accused of apostasy. 

The human rights activist sought police protection, but officers of the Police Commission in Jatrabri limited themselves to filing his complaint. Gomes said that the officer on duty guaranteed police intervention only after the fact happened saying he was not surprised at the anger of Muslims over his conversion....


Jihad Watch


----------



## Mr.Fitnah (Sep 30, 2009)

Freeman said:


> Mr.Fitnah said:
> 
> 
> > Many muslims like to say " Islam forbids the killing of innocent people"
> ...



This is a thread about how many muslims like to say " Islam forbids the killing of innocent people" as a defense of Islam from charges of Islam being the source of jihad terrorism and how Islam defines innocent.
Your question is out side of the purpose of this thread, start your own thread.

Many muslims like to say " Islam forbids the killing of innocent people"
Please provide Islamic scripture to prove unequivocally non muslims are innocent.


----------



## Sunni Man (Sep 30, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> Freeman said:
> 
> 
> > Mr.Fitnah said:
> ...


In other words Freeman: 

Mr Fitnah can't answer your question, because he doesn't have a clue what he is talking about.


----------



## Intense (Sep 30, 2009)

Sunni Man said:


> Mr.Fitnah said:
> 
> 
> > Freeman said:
> ...



Looks to me that Mr.Fitnah has done a great job in exposing your totalitarian plan of world domination.


----------



## Sunni Man (Sep 30, 2009)

Intense said:


> Looks to me that Mr.Fitnah has done a great job in exposing your totalitarian plan of world domination.



  First, I have to finish paying my kid's way thru college.

After that, I plan to pay off my mortgage.

And my wife wants to take a long vacation on a cruise ship.

Maybe then, I'll have the time to plan for world domination.


----------



## Mr.Fitnah (Sep 30, 2009)

Sunni Man said:


> Intense said:
> 
> 
> > Looks to me that Mr.Fitnah has done a great job in exposing your totalitarian plan of world domination.
> ...


Dont forget the kakat
Islam Question and Answer - Can zakaah be used for daâ&#8364;&#8482;wah purposes?
9:60. As-Sadaqât (here it means Zakât) are only for the Fuqarâ'[] (poor), and Al-Masâkin[] (the poor) and those employed to collect (the funds); and for to attract the hearts of those who have been inclined (towards Islâm); and to free the captives; and for those in debt; and for Allâh's Cause (i.e. for Mujâhidûn - those fighting in the holy wars), and for the wayfarer (a traveller who is cut off from everything); a duty imposed by Allâh. And Allâh is All-Knower, All-Wise.


----------



## Sunni Man (Sep 30, 2009)

Thanks for your input Imam Fitnuts


----------



## Mr.Fitnah (Sep 30, 2009)

No problem

Many muslims like to say " Islam forbids the killing of innocent people"
Please provide Islamic scripture to prove unequivocally non muslims are innocent.


----------



## Kalam (Sep 30, 2009)

Intense said:


> Looks to me that Mr.Fitnah has done a great job


Fitnuts has done an excellent job of copying and pasting Wahhabi propaganda. Outside of that, his accomplishments have been limited. 



Intense said:


> in exposing your totalitarian plan of world domination.


Now you're simply being ridiculous. I suppose I shouldn't expect much from a so-called Christian who conveniently ignores the racist hatred and calls for genocide that form the backbone of his religion.


----------



## PixieStix (Sep 30, 2009)

Intense said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> > Mr.Fitnah said:
> ...


 
Mr Fitnah definately knows Islam. He started out to prove that Islam was a religion of peace and to his dismay found the opposite. He is very thourough in his research.

He is one of the best posters I have ever known, and he is also very respectful, of other people.


----------



## Sunni Man (Sep 30, 2009)

PixieStix said:


> Intense said:
> 
> 
> > Sunni Man said:
> ...


You are making a sarcasm post? 
Correct?? 
You are just joking??? 
Right??? 
Please say you don't believe what you just posted!!!


----------



## stonewall (Sep 30, 2009)

Sunni Man said:


> PixieStix said:
> 
> 
> > Intense said:
> ...





I don't know Mr Fitnah, but I do know Islam. And, you are on the wrong side of history. You are wasting your life. 

Islam will be destroyed. That is what the end looks like. 

It's past time Muslims reject their religion.


----------



## Kalam (Sep 30, 2009)

PixieStix said:


> Mr Fitnah definately knows Islam.


That's rich. Any third grader with a modem could produce arguments as incisive as his. Each of Fitnuts' posts consists of presenting a radical position and asserting that it's representative of "true" Islam. Rational thought is avoided at all costs, especially if it leads to conclusions that contradict his naive preconceptions about Islam being an "evil" religion that devotes itself to spilling the blood of "infidels." God only knows what you hypocritical pseudo-Christians would do if Islam wasn't around to serve as your dartboard. 



PixieStix said:


> He started out to prove that Islam was a religion of peace and to his dismay found the opposite.


Yes, he's truly a gentle soul, a reluctant crusader who has only devoted himself to eradicating the "Mahometan scourge" out of necessity. You've got to be shitting me. 



PixieStix said:


> He is very thourough in his research.


Reading articles on the internet and skimming books in search of provocative-sounding quotes does not constitute research. Similarly, responding to a rebuttal with the very argument it refutes does not constitute debate. 



PixieStix said:


> He is one of the best posters I have ever known,


You have my sympathy. 



PixieStix said:


> and he is also very respectful, of other people.


Provided they follow a religion he approves of.


----------



## Kalam (Sep 30, 2009)

stonewall said:


> I don't know Mr Fitnah, but I do know Islam.


I highly doubt that. 



stonewall said:


> And, you are on the wrong side of history. You are wasting your life.
> 
> Islam will be destroyed. That is what the end looks like.


Oh, wow. You're welcome to try. If you were to conservatively estimate that only a tenth of the world's Muslims would fight back against your persecution, you'd still be looking at an army of about 150 million irregulars spread out across the globe. Good luck with that. 




stonewall said:


> It's past time Muslims reject their religion.


No thanks.


----------



## stonewall (Sep 30, 2009)

Kalam said:


> stonewall said:
> 
> 
> > I don't know Mr Fitnah, but I do know Islam.
> ...





I studied Islam for quite a bit of time. It's not that hard to figure out... even a cave man can do it, and they do.

It becomes hard when you try to deceive. Then Islam is like a mystery... can't quite figure it out. 

Of course Muslims would fight back. They are fighting now. So, that would not change.

How a person can be a Muslim, I do not understand. It's a system of supremacy above all others. It's founder, Muhammad is a pedophile and murderer. How do you defend such a monster? How do you follow such a monster?

We need to disregard all respect for Islam and those who follow Muhammad. We need to tell the brutal truth.

Lets start with Jihad. The path to paradise that the 9/11 hijackers followed. The one way trip to paradise for those who die waging Jihad for Allah.

It's a sick ideology.


----------



## Mr.Fitnah (Sep 30, 2009)

Kalam said:


> PixieStix said:
> 
> 
> > Mr Fitnah definately knows Islam.
> ...


Please post a link to where I have be disrespectful of you.


----------



## Kalam (Sep 30, 2009)

stonewall said:


> I studied Islam for quite a bit of time.


How pleasantly vague. I'm sure you have at least a few hours of reading online articles or flipping through the Qur'an under your belt... maybe even an introductory-level college course. Come on, what am I dealing with here?



stonewall said:


> It's not that hard to figure out... *even a cave man can do it*, and they do.


If you "know Islam" as well as you seem to think you do, I suppose this is true...



stonewall said:


> It becomes hard when you try to deceive. Then Islam is like a mystery... can't quite figure it out.


Rest assured, you wouldn't be the first pseudo-scholar to dismiss all of your Muslim opponents' arguments with laughably empty accusations of dishonesty.



stonewall said:


> How a person can be a Muslim, *I do not understand.*


Congratulations; you've identified the cause of Islamophobia. If only fate was kind enough to deliver that revelation to people like Fitnuts and Swizzle Sticks...



stonewall said:


> It's a system of supremacy above all others. It's founder, Muhammad *is* a pedophile and murderer.


It may shock you to hear that Muhammad (SAWS) is dead. Regardless, Aishah's true age at the time her marriage to the Messenger was consummated (19) has been confirmed using multiple historical sources. Regarding "murders," no person's death was ordered who didn't persecute Muslims, betray Muslims, or represent a legitimate threat to the existence and security of the Muslim community. 



stonewall said:


> How do you defend such a monster? How do you follow such a monster?


I don't follow a monster. How do you live with your hypocrisy and selective outrage? Where are your scathing condemnations of Biblical genocide, Joseph's alleged pedophilia (Mary was 12), and the Talmudic law permitting sexual intercourse with 3-year-old girls?



stonewall said:


> We need to disregard all respect for Islam and those who follow Muhammad. We need to tell the brutal truth.


It's quite evident that "truth" is a foreign concept to you. But this is a free message board and we're in America, so you don't need me to tell you that you may spread your nonsense freely, unimpeded by facts.



stonewall said:


> Lets start with Jihad. The path to paradise that the 9/11 hijackers followed.


They violated no less than 13 specific Qur'anic directives in doing so. A military operation isn't religiously legitimate _jihad_ unless it's carried out without violating the commandments of the Qur'an.


----------



## Kalam (Sep 30, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> Please post a link to where I have be disrespectful of you.



Disrespect towards Islam is disrespect towards me.


----------



## Sunni Man (Oct 1, 2009)

Einstein Jr said:


> Kalam said:
> 
> 
> > Mr.Fitnah said:
> ...


You just showed that you are a complete idiot.

Kalam said, " Disrespect towards *Islam* is disrespect towards me".

Not, "disrespect towards *muslims* is disrespect towards me".


----------



## Intense (Oct 1, 2009)

Kalam said:


> Intense said:
> 
> 
> > Looks to me that Mr.Fitnah has done a great job
> ...



Wow... Islam attacking Islam... Again.... Heads will Roll.... again!!!

Why is it so against Your Faith for Anyone to Have a Real Relationship with God, without the Threat of a Sword looming over the back of One's neck? Hint, Hint, Hint, lose the Violence! God's Purpose in Creating You Out weighs, All of the Bullshit Tangents, You or Anyone Else gets caught up in. Repent and Devote Yourself to Serving God Truly. Through Conscience You can Reach Him. He Is Always there.


----------



## Mr.Fitnah (Oct 1, 2009)

Kalam said:


> Mr.Fitnah said:
> 
> 
> > Please post a link to where I have be disrespectful of you.
> ...



Please post a link to where I have been disrespectful to Islam.
What is the penalty under sharia law for this crime?


----------



## stonewall (Oct 1, 2009)

Kalam said:


> stonewall said:
> 
> 
> > I studied Islam for quite a bit of time.
> ...





How did 9/11 violate the Koran? The link to the paste was appreciated but can you be more specific?

As far as Muhammad being a pedophile, I see how you deal with it... denial. Good Luck with that.

Muhammad the Murderer... you make his murders sound justified. I'm surprised Saddam Hussein is not worshiped. He murdered for the same reasons Muhammad did. 

I don't have to criticize all religions because I do so with Islam. Other religions are not slamming planes into buildings and waging Jihad  the world over.


----------



## JW Frogen (Oct 1, 2009)

Perhaps we should start with a much shorter list, what does Islam allow?


----------



## Sunni Man (Oct 1, 2009)

JW Frogen said:


> Perhaps we should start with a much shorter list, what does Islam allow?



marriage
familys
children
sending kids to school
higher education
working for a living
paying taxes
owning a house
vacations
travel to other countries
business
trade
seeing doctors
becoming a doctor
taking medicine
shopping at a store
visiting friends
teaching kids
visiting the sick
being friendly to neighbors
share food with strangers
own pets
be kind to animals
save money
give money to the needy
feed the poor
help orphans and widows
smile to everyone
teach morals to children
reverence to parents
help your community
be kind to strangers
etc. etc, etc.............


----------



## Mr.Fitnah (Oct 1, 2009)

Sunni Man said:


> JW Frogen said:
> 
> 
> > Perhaps we should start with a much shorter list, what does Islam allow?
> ...


Freedom of speech.
Freedom of conscience.
Liberty .
Nope.


----------



## Sunni Man (Oct 1, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> Freedom of speech.
> Freedom of conscience.
> Liberty .


Yes, we have those also.


----------



## Mr.Fitnah (Oct 1, 2009)

Sunni Man said:


> Mr.Fitnah said:
> 
> 
> > Freedom of speech.
> ...



Please define in detail the meaning of the word FITNAH.


----------



## Sunni Man (Oct 1, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> Please detail the meaning of the word FITNAH.



Let me get this straight.

You use the name Mr Fitnah as your user name.

Yet you don't know what the word "fitnah" means


----------



## JW Frogen (Oct 1, 2009)

Sunni Man said:


> JW Frogen said:
> 
> 
> > Perhaps we should start with a much shorter list, what does Islam allow?
> ...



Even this banal list reveals the irrationality of religion as practiced rather than conceived, for the former is the only thing that really matters about a religion in the world.

"Teach morals to children." What morals? Hamas using Islam to get teenagers to commit suicide bombings? I know, many Muslims will say the Koran does not condone that, but Hamas says it does, the religion allows the leeway. No empirical rational could be offered as a moral cause but it can be cherry picked in Islam.

Be kind to animals? When I was in Bahrain, Kuwait and Saudi Arabia dogs were treated with cruelty and contempt, and the justification was not their nature or any scientific examination of their effect on human life, but Islam. You may say it is not justified by the Koran, most there said it was.

Higher education? Try teaching real philosophy, including atheistic or nihilistic traditions or thinkers in many Islamic countries, totally impossible in Saudi Arabia and very difficult in most Islamic nations. Once again the justification is not any rational examination of the effects of these philosophies but rather Islamic prohibition.

Kindness to strangers? Which strangers, gay strangers kissing or holding hands? This would not produce much kindness in most Islamic countries, and the hostility is not justified through empirical thought, but from Islam.

Now you can say the Koran does not justify all or any of these behaviors, but many other Muslims, in fact most in Islamic countries would say it does, and their motivation does not find any other source other than Islam.


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## PixieStix (Oct 1, 2009)

Sunni Man said:


> Mr.Fitnah said:
> 
> 
> > Please detail the meaning of the word FITNAH.
> ...


 
Please define fitnah, thanks in advance

In the meantime, I shall continue to spread some mischief


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## Mr.Fitnah (Oct 1, 2009)

Sunni Man said:


> Mr.Fitnah said:
> 
> 
> > Please detail the meaning of the word FITNAH.
> ...


No, this is  another opportunity for you  to prove you are dishonest.


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## PixieStix (Oct 1, 2009)

Sunni Man said:


> Mr.Fitnah said:
> 
> 
> > Freedom of speech.
> ...


 
Freedom to choose religions? let's say a man wife chooses Jesus or atheism, rather than Mohammed, What happens then?


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## Sunni Man (Oct 1, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> > Mr.Fitnah said:
> ...


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## Mr.Fitnah (Oct 1, 2009)

Sunni Man said:


> Mr.Fitnah said:
> 
> 
> > Sunni Man said:
> ...





Sunni Man said:


> Mr.Fitnah said:
> 
> 
> > Freedom of speech.
> ...


Please define in detail the meaning of the word FITNAH.


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## Sunni Man (Oct 1, 2009)

Here Mr Fitnut is the defination of fitnah:

*Fitnah*

Fitnah (&#1601;&#1578;&#1606;&#1577 is an Arabic word, generally regarded as very difficult to translate but at the same time is considered to be an all encompassing word referring to schism, secession, upheaval and anarchy at once. It is often used to refer to civil war, disagreement and division within Islam and specifically alludes to a time involving trials of faith, similar to the Tribulation in Christian eschatology. 

fitnah | English | Dictionary & Translation by Babylon


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## Sunni Man (Oct 1, 2009)

And this really long cut & paste was in response to?????


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## Mr.Fitnah (Oct 1, 2009)

Sunni Man said:


> Mr.Fitnah said:
> 
> 
> > Freedom of speech.
> ...





Sunni Man said:


> Here Mr Fitnut is the defination of fitnah:
> 
> *Fitnah*
> 
> ...



Thanks tool.
From the Noble Quran
8:39

And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and polytheism: i.e. worshipping others besides Allâh) and the religion (worship) will all be for Allâh Alone [in the whole of the world[]]. But if they cease (worshipping others besides Allâh), then certainly, Allâh is All-Seer of what they do 
2:193.  
And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allâh) and (all and every kind of) worship is for Allâh (Alone).[] But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against Az-Zâlimûn (the polytheists, and wrong-doers, etc193

http://www.ummah.com/what-is-islam/quran/noble/

Tafsir.com Tafsir Ibn Kathir

Tafsir.com Tafsir Ibn Kathir

Tafsir.com Tafsir Ibn Kathir

bn Faaris said: &#8220;Fa-ta-na is a sound root which indicates testing or trial.&#8221; (Maqaayees al-Lughah, 4/472). This is the basic meaning of the word fitnah in Arabic. 

Ibn al-Atheer said: *&#8220;Fitnah: trial or test&#8230; The word is often used to describe tests in which something disliked is eliminated. Later it was also often used in the sense of sin, kufr (disbelief), fighting, burning, removing and diverting*.&#8221; (al-Nihaayah, 3/410. Ibn Hajar said something similar in al-Fath, 13/3). 

Ibn al-A&#8217;raabi summed up the meanings of fitnah when he said: *&#8220;Fitnah means testing, fitnah means trial, fitnah means wealth, fitnah means children, fitnah means kufr, fitnah means differences of opinion among people, fitnah means burning with fire.&#8221; *(Lisaan al-&#8216;Arab by Ibn Manzoor). 

2 &#8211; Meanings of the word fitnah in the Qur&#8217;aan and Sunnah: 

1-     Testing and trial, as in the aayah (interpretation of the meaning):

&#8220;Do people think that they will be left alone because they say: &#8216;We believe, and will not be tested [la yuftanoon]&#8221; [al-&#8216;Ankaboot 29:2]

i.e., that they will not be subjected to trial, as Ibn Jareer said. 

2-     Blocking the way and turning people away, as in the aayah (interpretation of the meaning):

&#8220;but beware of them lest they turn you [yaftinooka] (O Muhammad) far away from some of that which Allaah has sent down to you&#8221; [al-Maa&#8217;idah 5:49]

Al-Qurtubi said: this means blocking your way and turning you away.         

3-     Persecution, as in the aayah (interpretation of the meaning):

&#8220;Then, verily, your Lord for those who emigrated after they had been put to trials [futinoo] and thereafter strove hard and fought (for the Cause of Allaah) and were patient, verily, your Lord afterward is, Oft&#8209;Forgiving, Most Merciful&#8221; [al-Nahl 16:110]

Put to trial means persecuted. 

4-     Shirk and kufr, as in the aayah (interpretation of the meaning):

&#8220;And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allaah)&#8221; [al-Baqarah 2:193]

Ibn Katheer said: this means shirk (worshipping others besides Allaah). 

5-     Falling into sin and hypocrisy, as in the aayah (interpretation of the meaning):

&#8220;(The hypocrites) will call the believers: &#8220;Were we not with you?&#8221; The believers will reply: &#8220;Yes! But you led yourselves into temptations [fatantum anfusakum], you looked forward for our destruction; you doubted (in Faith) and you were deceived by false desires&#8221; [al-Hadeed 57:14]

Al-Baghawi said: i.e., you made yourselves fall into hypocrisy and you destroyed yourselves by means of sin and whims and desires. 

6-     Confusing truth with falsehood, as in the aayah (interpretation of the meaning):

&#8220;And those who disbelieve are allies of one another, (and) if you (Muslims of the whole world collectively) do not do so [i.e. become allies, as one united block under one Khaleefah (a chief Muslim ruler for the whole Muslim world) to make victorious Allaah&#8217;s religion of Islamic Monotheism], there will be Fitnah (wars, battles, polytheism) and oppression on the earth, and a great mischief and corruption (appearance of polytheism)&#8221;[al-Anfaal 6:73]

What this means is that &#8220;unless believers are taken as close friends instead of disbelievers, even if they are relatives, there will be fitnah on earth, i.e., truth will be confused with falsehood.&#8221; This is how it is explained in Jaami&#8217; al-Bayaan by Ibn Jareer. 

7-     Misguidance, as in the aayah (interpretation of the meaning):

&#8220;And whomsoever Allaah wants to put in Al&#8209;Fitnah (error, because of his rejecting of Faith), you can do nothing for him against Allaah&#8221; [al-Maa'idah 5:41]

The meaning of fitnah here is misguidance. Al-Bahr al-Muheet by Abu Hayaan, 4/262. 

8-     Killing and taking prisoners, as in the aayah (interpretation of the meaning):

&#8220;if you fear that the disbelievers may put you in trial [yaftinakum] (attack you)&#8221;

[al-Nisa&#8217; 4:101]

This refers to the kaafirs attacking the Muslims whilst they are praying and prostrating, in order to kill them or take them prisoner, as stated by Ibn Jareer. 

9-     Difference among people and lack of agreement, as in the aayah (interpretation of the meaning):

&#8220;and they would have hurried about in your midst (spreading corruption) and sowing sedition among you [yabghoonakum al-fitnah]&#8221; [al-Tawbah 9:47]

i.e., they would have stirred up differences amongst you, as it says in al-Kashshaaf, 2/277. 

10-Insanity, as in the aayah (interpretation of the meaning):

&#8220;Which of you is afflicted with madness (maftoon)&#8221; [al-Qalam 68:6] Here it means madness. 

11-Burning with fire, as in the aayah (interpretation of the meaning):

&#8220;Verily, those who put into trial [fatanoo] the believing men and believing women (by torturing them and burning them)&#8221;[al-Burooj 85:10]

Ibn Hajar said: the meaning may be understood from the context. (al-Fath 11/176) 

Note: 

Ibn al-Qayyim (may Allaah have mercy on him) said: With regard to the &#8220;fitnah&#8221; which Allaah attributes to Himself or which His Messenger attributes to Him, as in the aayah (interpretation of the meaning), &#8216;Thus We have tried [fatannaa] some of them with others&#8217; [al-An&#8217;aam 6:53] and the words of Moosa, &#8216;It is only Your trial [fitnatuka] by which You lead astray whom You will&#8217; [al-A&#8217;raaf 7:155 &#8211; interpretation of the meaning], that carries a different meaning, which is a test or trial from Allaah to His slaves by means of good things and bad, blessings and calamities. This is one thing; the fitnah of the mushrikeen is another thing; the fitnah or trial of the believer by means of his wealth, children and neighbour is another thing; the fitnah (tribulation, differences) that happen amongst the Muslims, like the fitnah that happened between the supporters of &#8216;Ali and Mu&#8217;awiyah, and between him and the people of the camel, and between Muslims when they fight one another or boycott one another, is another thing. (Zaad al-Ma&#8217;aad, vol. 3, p. 170).


Mr.Fitnah said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> > Mr.Fitnah said:
> ...


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## Mr.Fitnah (Oct 1, 2009)

Fitnah, pretty much anything a muslim doesn't like or disagrees with .

8:39

And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and polytheism: i.e. worshipping others besides Allâh) and the religion (worship) will all be for Allâh Alone [in the whole of the world[]]. But if they cease (worshipping others besides Allâh), then certainly, Allâh is All-Seer of what they do 
2:193.  
And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allâh) and (all and every kind of) worship is for Allâh (Alone).[] But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against Az-Zâlimûn (the polytheists, and wrong-doers, etc193

http://www.ummah.com/what-is-islam/quran/noble/

Tafsir.com Tafsir Ibn Kathir

Tafsir.com Tafsir Ibn Kathir

Tafsir.com Tafsir Ibn Kathir


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## Sunni Man (Oct 1, 2009)

Just more of your cut & paste nonsense Mr Fitnuts.

Question: do you ever answer anything in your own words?

I mean, anyone with limited intelligence can post cut & paste answers all day long, and still never understand the material or subject they are posting.

You seen to exhibit this behavior to the extreme.


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## Liability (Oct 1, 2009)

Sunni Man said:


> Just more of your cut & paste nonsense Mr Fitnuts.
> 
> Question: do you ever answer anything in your own words?
> 
> ...



The fact that his quoted material is clearly responsive to the things you have said demonstrates how wrong you are.

"Fitnah" (whateverthefuckitmeans) is obviously NOT as simply defined as YOU suggested.

Mr. F's posts establish that quite clearly.

Perhaps the lack of understanding is yours alone.


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## Ringel05 (Oct 1, 2009)

Sunni Man said:


> Just more of your cut & paste nonsense Mr Fitnuts.
> 
> Question: do you ever answer anything in your own words?
> 
> ...



Sunni Man, I'm caught in a bit of a quandry.  You know as well as I that some followers of Mohammad believe (based on their interpretation of the Koran) that since I am an infidel (non-believer), it is acceptable to lie to me, cheat me, steal from me, kill me and/or all the above.
Not being able to read you mind or judge your heart how do I know you are not one of these?  If you tell me you're not how can I believe you?  You understand my dilemma.


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## Sunni Man (Oct 1, 2009)

Liability said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> > Just more of your cut & paste nonsense Mr Fitnuts.
> ...


I posted the dictionary definition for the word fitnah.

But Mr Fitnuts, adds all kinds of misquotes and out of context nonsense to the definition.

Sure he can impress the misinformed and gulible with his misinformation.

Although, those of us who are knowledgeable on the subject, are aware he is posting stupidity to the extreme.


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## Mr.Fitnah (Oct 1, 2009)

Sunni Man said:


> Just more of your cut & paste nonsense Mr Fitnuts.
> 
> Question: do you ever answer anything in your own words?
> 
> ...


I use my own words when my opinion is called for.
For matters concerning Islam I refer to experts for my uniformed bigotry and idiocy and extreme stupidity  .
Islam Question and Answer - Meanings of the word fitnah in the Qur&#8217;aan


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## Liability (Oct 1, 2009)

Sunni Man said:


> Liability said:
> 
> 
> > Sunni Man said:
> ...



No.  He did not add any misquotes, etc., as you just falsely claimed  When you find that you need to resort to lying to salvage your "case," it is time to consider just admitting that you lack support for your views.  You cited ONE definition.  Mr. F cited various other (just as valid) definitions.  

You _claim_ to be knowledgeable on the subject, but you have shown no more authority over the topic than Mr. F has.  In fact, you have shown less.


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## Mr.Fitnah (Oct 1, 2009)

Liability said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> > Liability said:
> ...


I don't recall him claiming to be knowledgeable, he just claims Im not.


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## Sunni Man (Oct 1, 2009)

Ringel05 said:


> Sunni Man, I'm caught in a bit of a quandry.  You know as well as I that some followers of Mohammad believe (based on their interpretation of the Koran) that since I am an infidel (non-believer), it is acceptable to lie to me, cheat me, steal from me, kill me and/or all the above.
> Not being able to read you mind or judge your heart how do I know you are not one of these?  If you tell me you're not how can I believe you?  You understand my dilemma.


Good question Ringel05

There is alot of misinformation on the subject. So I will explain it as best as I can.

First of all, lying iin general is not condoned in Islam.

The Quran says, "Truly Allah guides not one who transgresses and lies." Surah 40:28. 

Also, Mohammed was quoted as saying, "Be honest because honesty leads to goodness, and goodness leads to Paradise. Beware of falsehood because it leads to immorality, and immorality leads to Hell." 

So if I conduct business and don't tell customers the truth. That is lying and unislamic.


The type of lying that people accuse muslims of engaging in is called "taqiyya".

And claim that muslims are told to lie about everything; especially to non muslims.



Here is the 3 instances that a muslims can use taqiyya. (tell a lie)

Again, only these 3 are allowed in Islam.

1) during a time of war or to save your life or the lives of others

example: when captured by the enemy, you can give false information.

2) for reconciliation between people; i.e trying to settle a dispute between friends.

3) to you spouce to keep the peace. Like if your wife says "does this make me look fat"? (you can answer "No" reguardless of reality)  

I hope this helps and answers your question.


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## Liability (Oct 1, 2009)

Sunni Man said:


> Ringel05 said:
> 
> 
> > Sunni Man, I'm caught in a bit of a quandry.  You know as well as I that some followers of Mohammad believe (based on their interpretation of the Koran) that since I am an infidel (non-believer), it is acceptable to lie to me, cheat me, steal from me, kill me and/or all the above.
> ...



The ANSWER is a lie.

And it is permissible for a Muslim to lie under these circumstances.

So, no.

YOUR answer is of zero value.


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## Mr.Fitnah (Oct 1, 2009)

Narrated Jabir bin 'Abdullah:
Allah's Apostle said, "Who is willing to kill Ka'b bin Al-Ashraf who has hurt Allah and His Apostle?" Thereupon Muhammad bin Maslama got up saying, "O Allah's Apostle! Would you like that I kill him?" The Prophet said, "Yes," Muhammad bin Maslama said, "Then allow me to say a (false) thing (i.e. to deceive Kab). "The Prophet said, "You may say it." CRCC: Center For Muslim-Jewish Engagement: Resources: Religious Texts


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## Sunni Man (Oct 1, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> Narrated Jabir bin 'Abdullah:
> Allah's Apostle said, "Who is willing to kill Ka'b bin Al-Ashraf who has hurt Allah and His Apostle?" Thereupon Muhammad bin Maslama got up saying, "O Allah's Apostle! Would you like that I kill him?" The Prophet said, "Yes," Muhammad bin Maslama said, "Then allow me to say a (false) thing (i.e. to deceive Kab). "The Prophet said, "You may say it." CRCC: Center For Muslim-Jewish Engagement: Resources: Religious Texts


As I said in my post. Deception is allowed during a time of conflict or war.

All soldiers, armys, spies, governments; engage in this practice when dealing with the enemy.

In the quote that you posted. Muhammad was giving permission for a man to lie his way into an enemy camp and kill one of their leaders.

Basically what spies do, and have always done, in all wars throughout history.


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## Liability (Oct 1, 2009)

Sunni Man said:


> Mr.Fitnah said:
> 
> 
> > Narrated Jabir bin 'Abdullah:
> ...



Lotsa Muslims ARE at war with many of US in the West.  Ergo, lying is currently "okey-fucking-dokey."  Mohammed said so.


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## Ringel05 (Oct 1, 2009)

Sunni Man said:


> Ringel05 said:
> 
> 
> > Sunni Man, I'm caught in a bit of a quandry.  You know as well as I that some followers of Mohammad believe (based on their interpretation of the Koran) that since I am an infidel (non-believer), it is acceptable to lie to me, cheat me, steal from me, kill me and/or all the above.
> ...



Ok, but you specifically avoided the part concerning those followers of Islam who do not follow what you have posted and do exactly as I have stated and how you can convince me you are not one of them.  In their eyes I am an infidel, so whatever evil they do to me is not forbidden simply because I am not a believer.  They are the ones who (like the ultra-radical Christian zelots do for Christianity) contribute to giving Islam a bad name.  I know how you can mitigate (not eliminate) my skepticism, do you?


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## Mr.Fitnah (Oct 1, 2009)

Sunni Man said:


> Mr.Fitnah said:
> 
> 
> > Narrated Jabir bin 'Abdullah:
> ...



Ishaq:208 "When Allah gave permission to his Apostle to fight, the second Aqaba contained conditions involving war which were not in the first act of submission. Now we bound ourselves to war against all mankind for Allah and His Apostle. He promised us a reward in Paradise for faithful service. We pledged ourselves to war in complete obedience to Muhammad no matter how evil the circumstances."


33:21. Indeed in the Messenger of Allâh (Muhammad ) you have a good example to follow for him who hopes in (the Meeting with) Allâh and the Last Day and remembers Allâh much. 


'Abdullah bin 'Umar, may Allah be pleased with them, reported: 
Allah's Messenger said: I have been commanded to fight against people till they testify that there is no god but Allah, and that Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah, perform the Prayer, and pay Zakah. If they do that, their blood and property are guaranteed protection on my behalf except when justified by law, and their affairs rest with Allah. 
http://hadith.al-islam.com/bayan/display.asp?Lang=eng&ID=12


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## Sunni Man (Oct 1, 2009)

Ringel05 said:


> Ok, but you specifically avoided the part concerning those followers of Islam who do not follow what you have posted and do exactly as I have stated and how you can convince me you are not one of them.  In their eyes I am an infidel, so whatever evil they do to me is not forbidden simply because I am not a believer.  They are the ones who (like the ultra-radical Christian zelots do for Christianity) contribute to giving Islam a bad name.  I know how you can mitigate (not eliminate) my skepticism, do you?



Just as not all Christians follow the Bible or act like christians.

Not all Muslims follow the Quran or act like muslims.

All I post is what the Quran says concerning different subjects.

Every individual christian and muslim will be held responsible for their actions by God.


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## Mr.Fitnah (Oct 1, 2009)

Sunni Man said:


> Ringel05 said:
> 
> 
> > Ok, but you specifically avoided the part concerning those followers of Islam who do not follow what you have posted and do exactly as I have stated and how you can convince me you are not one of them.  In their eyes I am an infidel, so whatever evil they do to me is not forbidden simply because I am not a believer.  They are the ones who (like the ultra-radical Christian zelots do for Christianity) contribute to giving Islam a bad name.  I know how you can mitigate (not eliminate) my skepticism, do you?
> ...


9:111. Verily, Allâh has purchased of the *believers* their lives and their properties; for the price that theirs shall be the Paradise. *They fight in Allâh's Cause, so they kill* (others) and are killed. It is a promise in truth which is binding on Him in the Taurât (Torah) and the Injeel (Gospel) and the Qur'ân. And who is truer to his covenant than Allâh? Then rejoice in the bargain which you have concluded. That is the supreme success[].

9:112. (The believers whose lives Allâh has purchased are) those who repent to Allâh (from polytheism and hypocrisy, etc.), who worship Him, who praise Him, who fast (or go out in Allâh's Cause), who bow down (in prayer), who prostrate themselves (in prayer), who enjoin (people) for Al-Ma'rûf (i.e. Islâmic Monotheism and all what Islâm has ordained) and* forbid (people) from Al-Munkar (i.e. disbelief, polytheism of all kinds and all that Islâm has forbidden),* and who observe the limits set by Allâh (do all that Allâh has ordained and abstain from all kinds of sins and evil deeds which Allâh has forbidden). And give glad tidings to the believers

2:193.  
And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allâh) and (all and every kind of) worship is for Allâh (Alone).[] But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against Az-Zâlimûn (the polytheists, and wrong-doers, etc.)  
The Noble Quran : Surat 2

let there be no transgression except against Az-Zâlimûn 
let there be no transgression except against Az-Zâlimûn 
let there be no transgression except against Az-Zâlimûn 
let there be no transgression except against Az-Zâlimûn 

8:39

And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and polytheism: i.e. worshipping others besides Allâh) and the religion (worship) will all be for Allâh Alone [in the whole of the world[]]. But if they cease (worshipping others besides Allâh), then certainly, Allâh is All-Seer of what they do 
2:193.  
And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allâh) and (all and every kind of) worship is for Allâh (Alone).[] But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against Az-Zâlimûn (the polytheists, and wrong-doers, etc193

http://www.ummah.com/what-is-islam/quran/noble/

Tafsir.com Tafsir Ibn Kathir

Tafsir.com Tafsir Ibn Kathir

Tafsir.com Tafsir Ibn Kathir


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## Ringel05 (Oct 1, 2009)

Sunni Man said:


> Ringel05 said:
> 
> 
> > Ok, but you specifically avoided the part concerning those followers of Islam who do not follow what you have posted and do exactly as I have stated and how you can convince me you are not one of them.  In their eyes I am an infidel, so whatever evil they do to me is not forbidden simply because I am not a believer.  They are the ones who (like the ultra-radical Christian zelots do for Christianity) contribute to giving Islam a bad name.  I know how you can mitigate (not eliminate) my skepticism, do you?
> ...



You answered my question by evasion.  That leaves me with the only conclusion I can draw.  You are indeed one of those who wish to destroy me and everything I believe in.  This obvously makes us deadly enemies.  I for one would rather see the world destroyed then live under a world wide Caliphate (yes, I do know what the ultimate goal of Islam is).


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## Sunni Man (Oct 1, 2009)

Mr Fitnuts, I answer you questions with my own words and thoughts.

Yet, again, your response is just another long cut & paste.

Do you EVER have an orginal idea or answer that is yours???


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## Sunni Man (Oct 1, 2009)

Ringel05 said:


> You answered my question by evasion.



Evasion??  

I tried to answer your question as best and as detained as I could.

And tried to address every point as you requested.

How you got evasion out of my answer is beyond me.


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## Mr.Fitnah (Oct 1, 2009)

Sunni Man said:


> Mr Fitnuts, I answer you questions with my own words and thoughts.
> 
> Yet, again, your response is just another long cut & paste.
> 
> Do you EVER have an orginal idea or answer that is yours???


I use my own words when my opinion is called for.
On matters concerning Islam, my opinion is irrelevant . For that   I rely on scripture and the opinion of experts.


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## Fatality (Oct 1, 2009)

scripture and commentary is the basis of the theolgical question, i wonder why the muhammadan thinks this is worthless? does he have something to hide?


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## Ringel05 (Oct 1, 2009)

Sunni Man said:


> Ringel05 said:
> 
> 
> > You answered my question by evasion.
> ...



Nope, it was evasion.  If you can't see that then you are either blind or being deceptive.  Reread what my question was, you definitely did not answer it.  It was quite specific and directed to you, a regurgitation of what the Koran says is not an answer, it is an evasion of the specifically asked question.


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## Sunni Man (Oct 1, 2009)

Ringel05 said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> > Ringel05 said:
> ...


Your question(s) was in the form of a long run on sentence, with very little punctuation. So it was hard to follow. Please ask it again in a coherent manner and I will attemp to answer. But please be precise as to what you want.

Thank You


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## Ringel05 (Oct 1, 2009)

Sunni Man said:


> Ringel05 said:
> 
> 
> > Sunni Man said:
> ...



You're joking, right?!  My question was quite succinct and properly punctuated, that is something I do know how to do, I learned how to do this in 5th grade.
But since you insist:
The first part was a qualifier, the second (in red) was the question/statement.

 Sunni Man, I'm caught in a bit of a quandary. You know as well as I that some followers of Mohammad believe (based on their interpretation of the Koran) that since I am an infidel (non-believer), it is acceptable to lie to me, cheat me, steal from me, kill me and/or all the above.
Not being able to read you mind or judge your heart how do I know you are not one of these? If you tell me you're not how can I believe you? You understand my dilemma.


----------



## Sunni Man (Oct 1, 2009)

Ringel05 said:


> Not being able to read you mind or judge your heart how do I know you are not one of these? If you tell me you're not how can I believe you? You understand my dilemma.


Yea, you are in a dilemma..............................Sorry, but I can't help you


----------



## Mr.Fitnah (Oct 1, 2009)

"sunniman " is a bit of a grammar nazi, in fact he is a bit of a Nazi but thats besides the point, He  thinks pointing out non existent errors makes him look smart.


----------



## Ringel05 (Oct 1, 2009)

Sunni Man said:


> Ringel05 said:
> 
> 
> > Not being able to read you mind or judge your heart how do I know you are not one of these? If you tell me you're not how can I believe you? You understand my dilemma.
> ...



OK, how about this one:

I know _how_ you can mitigate (not eliminate) my skepticism, do you?


----------



## Kalam (Oct 1, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> Please post a link to where I have been disrespectful to Islam.


You must be joking. You know as well as I that disrespecting Islam is your raison d'être. 



Mr.Fitnah said:


> What is the penalty under sharia law for this crime?


Under the Qur'an? Being left to wallow in your ignorance.

_The life of this world is made to seem fair to those who disbelieve, and they mock those who believe. And those who keep their duty will be above them on the day of Resurrection. And Allah gives to whom He pleases without measure._ - 2:212

_And indeed He has revealed to you in the Book that when you hear Allahs messages disbelieved in and mocked at, sit not with them until they enter into some other discourse, for then indeed you would be like them. Surely Allah will gather together the hypocrites and the disbelievers all in hell_ - 4:140

_O you who believe, take not for friends those who take your religion as a mockery and a sport, from among those who were given the Book before you and the disbelievers; and keep your duty to Allah if you are believers. _- 5:57​


----------



## Intense (Oct 1, 2009)

Kalam said:


> Mr.Fitnah said:
> 
> 
> > Please post a link to where I have been disrespectful to Islam.
> ...



What One hold Sacred should Never be made a Mockery of Kalam. Even in disagreement, Humbleness and Humility is best. God does not Require Us to Know All of the Answers, He does Require Us to Be Faithful. He Reaches Us On His Terms, not Ours, He knocks Us Down, and Restores. Know that in All the Faiths, His Hand is at Work, in some cases working with, in others against.  Regardless of Understanding, Keep Faith in Him.


----------



## Mr.Fitnah (Oct 1, 2009)

Kalam said:


> Mr.Fitnah said:
> 
> 
> > Please post a link to where I have been disrespectful to Islam.
> ...


Strike 3
I dont mock Islam ,. I present a interpretation of Islam you don&#8217;t agree.
The interpretation I present  Of Islam is  in context of Islamic history  in harmony with  the quran the sunna and  Al sira.
An interpretation that  the website you link to in your sig concludes the mutz cult is not traditional  Islam.


----------



## Kalam (Oct 1, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> I dont mock Islam ,.


A patently false statement. 



Mr.Fitnah said:


> I present a interpretation of Islam you dont agree.
> The interpretation I present  Of Islam is  in context of Islamic history  in harmony with  the quran the sunna and  Al sira.



The "interpretation" you present is in harmony with hand-picked aspects of history and what are generally thought of as the traditions of Muhammad. Anything that contradicts your nonsense is conveniently overlooked.


----------



## Kalam (Oct 1, 2009)

Intense said:


> What One hold Sacred should Never be made a Mockery of Kalam.



This entire subforum is seemingly devoted to mocking the religious beliefs of others. It is not for the thin-skinned.


----------



## Kalam (Oct 1, 2009)

Ringel05 said:


> I know _how_ you can mitigate (not eliminate) my skepticism



Feel free to share.


----------



## Mr.Fitnah (Oct 1, 2009)

Kalam said:


> Mr.Fitnah said:
> 
> 
> > I dont mock Islam ,.
> ...



You have not presented anything that contradicts what I present , you just say  you reject it as being unislamic  from your non traditional interpretation.
All of what I present is scriptural Islam , I do cherry pick, I only concern myself with the parts of Islam that concern me and other mushrukun.
If Islam didnt have anything to say about how muslims were to deal with disbelievers, trust me I wouldnt think about Islam again.


----------



## Mr.Fitnah (Oct 1, 2009)

Kalam said:


> Mr.Fitnah said:
> 
> 
> > I dont mock Islam ,.
> ...


I stand corrected , thanks I thought mocking involved humor .
mock&#8194;&#8194;[mok]  Show IPA
verb (used with object)
1.	to attack or treat with ridicule, contempt, or derision.
2.	to ridicule by mimicry of action or speech; mimic derisively.
3.	to mimic, imitate, or counterfeit.
4.	to challenge; defy: His actions mock convention.
5.	to deceive, delude, or disappoint.

Clearly Islam does not support free speech.


----------



## Mr.Fitnah (Oct 1, 2009)

In my opinion Islam needs to be challenged, even if it is a violation of the tenants of Islam.
In any case more proof non muslims are not innocent.


----------



## Kalam (Oct 1, 2009)

stonewall said:


> How did 9/11 violate the Koran? The link to the paste was appreciated but can you be more specific?


I'll provide you with some explanations offered by others. If you have a specific question, I'll answer it to the best of my abilities. Keep in mind that the views of most of these individuals would be considered far more "conservative" than most of my own. Nonetheless, we agree as far as taking innocent life is concerned. That should tell you something. 

Qaradawi et al. fatwa
NEWS \ Shaykh &#39;Abdul-&#39;Azeez Aal ash-Shaykh says attacks are an "oppression, injustice and tyranny"...
NEWS \ Shaykh Saalih as-Suhaymee speaks about current affairs...
c u l t u r e k i t c h e n: Text of the Fatwa Declared Against Osama Bin Laden by the Islamic Commission of Spain
Islamtoday.Com - Terrorism & killing civilians
Islamtoday.Com - It is not an Islamic duty to initiate aggression against peaceful neighbors



stonewall said:


> As far as Muhammad being a pedophile, I see how you deal with it... denial. Good Luck with that.


I fail to see how this constitutes "denial":



			
				Kalam said:
			
		

> Her age was lowered in that report so that no questions would be raised about her virginity, and by extension, the legitimacy of Muhammad's offspring through her.
> 
> Source: "All of these specific references to the bride's age reinforce Aisha's pre-menarcheal status and, implicitly, her virginity. They also suggest the variability of Aisha's age in the historical record." - D. A. Spellberg, Politics, Gender, and the Islamic Past.
> 
> ...



It boils down to whether you choose to accept the validity of Bukhari's report over the facts presented by both Ibn Kathir and Al-Tabrizi.



stonewall said:


> Muhammad the Murderer... you make his murders sound justified.


Muhammad (SAW) did not commit or order any "murders." All of those whose death he ordered represented a legitimate threat to the wellbeing of the Muslims and their allies. 



stonewall said:


> I'm surprised Saddam Hussein is not worshiped. He murdered for the same reasons Muhammad did.


I'm afraid little if any of what Saddam Hussein did can be considered defense of the Islamic religion. Saddam Hussein was a secularist whose motivations were purely political. 



stonewall said:


> I don't have to criticize all religions because I do so with Islam.


Not if you don't mind being hypocritical.



stonewall said:


> Other religions are not slamming planes into buildings and waging Jihad  the world over.



The tip of the iceberg:

Lord's Resistance Army (LRA)
Lord's Resistance Army terrorises Congo | World news | The Guardian
Lord's Resistance Army Attacks Villages, Kidnaps Children On Sudan-Congo Border (VIDEO)


BBC News | MIDDLE EAST | Graveside party celebrates Hebron massacre
Jewish terrorist commits suicide in jail | Israel | Jerusalem Post
îâæéï äëéáåù Occupation Magazine
BBC News | Middle East | Israeli killers' sentences reduced


BBC News | SOUTH ASIA | 'Church backing Tripura rebels'
BBC NEWS | South Asia | India rebels 'making porn films'
Daily Herald : Passage from India


Serbs 'enslaved Muslim women at rape camps' | World news | The Guardian


----------



## Mr.Fitnah (Oct 1, 2009)

Kalam said:


> stonewall said:
> 
> 
> > How did 9/11 violate the Koran? The link to the paste was appreciated but can you be more specific?
> ...



Proof by intimidation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


----------



## Kalam (Oct 1, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> Clearly Islam does not support free speech.



You'll notice that no earthly punishment is mentioned for those who mock Islam. Promises of chastisement in the hereafter can hardly be considered suppression of free speech - mock as much as you'd like. 

_...Go on mocking, surely Allah will bring to light what you fear._ - 9:64​
Free speech in Islam as encouraged by the Caliph Ma'mun's cousin Hashimi:

_... bring forward all the arguments you wish and say whatever you please and speak your mind freely. Now that you are safe and free to say whatever you please appoint some arbitrator who will impartially judge between us and lean only towards the truth and be free from the empery of passion, and that arbitrator shall be Reason, whereby God makes us responsible for our own rewards and punishments. Herein I have dealt justly with you and have given you full security and am ready to accept whatever decision Reason may give for me or against me. For "There is no compulsion in religion" (Qur'an 2:256) and I have only invited you to accept our faith willingly and of your own accord and have pointed out the hideousness of your present belief. Peace be with you and the blessings of God!_​


----------



## Kalam (Oct 1, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> Proof by intimidation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



I'm afraid that isn't a refutation.


----------



## Ringel05 (Oct 1, 2009)

Kalam said:


> Ringel05 said:
> 
> 
> > I know _how_ you can mitigate (not eliminate) my skepticism
> ...



Certainly.  In order to gain the trust, primarily with the western nations the Islamic community needs to step up to the plate and start policing it's own, something that has not really happened as yet.  In primarily the western countries the Islamic community needs to not only denounce violent, Islamic radicalism (which many have done - mostly lip service) but expose, isolate and if necessary eradicate the violent radical elements hiding within their midst.  This alone would be a giant leap towards building trust with those in the west.  Until that happens most will continue to look upon Islam and the followers of Mohammad with suspicion, hatred and fear.


----------



## JW Frogen (Oct 2, 2009)

Kalam said:


> Free speech in Islam as encouraged by the Caliph Ma'mun's cousin Hashimi:]



Well then I am left to draw one of two conclusions, either Islam constantly contradicts itself or Muslims are so abysmally stupid they can not follow their own religion.

Few Islamic nations have a right to free speech and indeed they are trying to restrict speech world wide.

UN anti-blasphemy measures have sinister goals, observers say


*Islamic countries Monday won United Nations backing for an anti-blasphemy measure Canada and other Western critics say risks being used to limit freedom of speech.*

And it is like this on issue after issue, one group of Muslims use the Koran to justify jihad as war, indeed terror and another (usually minorities in the West attempting to calm the West) say oh the Koran does not mean that, it means this.

Any religion is only as meaningful as it is practiced, Islam sadly is being practiced in far too many places in the world in a way that is intolerant, sexist, violent and anti rational.


----------



## Mr.Fitnah (Oct 2, 2009)

Kalam said:


> Mr.Fitnah said:
> 
> 
> > Proof by intimidation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> ...



No , your post is just a pile of hash,
 many of them are,
 no one wants to pick through them.
 verbosity is not proof.
keep it pithy.


----------



## Mr.Fitnah (Oct 2, 2009)

Kalam said:


> Mr.Fitnah said:
> 
> 
> > Clearly Islam does not support free speech.
> ...



Ive just begun.

8:39

And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and polytheism: i.e. worshipping others besides Allâh) and the religion (worship) will all be for Allâh Alone [in the whole of the world[]]. But if they cease (worshipping others besides Allâh), then certainly, Allâh is All-Seer of what they do 
2:193.  
And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allâh) and (all and every kind of) worship is for Allâh (Alone).[] But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against Az-Zâlimûn (the polytheists, and wrong-doers, etc193

http://www.ummah.com/what-is-islam/quran/noble/

http://www.tafsir.com/default.asp?sid=8&tid=20140

http://www.tafsir.com/default.asp?sid=2&tid=5008

http://www.tafsir.com/default.asp?sid=2&tid=5035

Ibn al-A&#8217;raabi summed up the meanings of fitnah when he said: &#8220;Fitnah means testing, fitnah means trial, fitnah means wealth, fitnah means children, fitnah means kufr, fitnah means differences of opinion among people, fitnah means burning with fire.&#8221; (Lisaan al-&#8216;Arab by Ibn Manzoor). 

http://www.islam-qa.com/en/ref/22899/fitnah


----------



## Sunni Man (Oct 2, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> No , your post is just a pile of hash,
> many of them are,
> no one wants to pick through them.
> *verbosity is not proof.
> keep it pithy*.



  This is from a guy who cuts & pastes absurdly long posts to what many times is a yes or no question.


----------



## Intense (Oct 2, 2009)

Kalam said:


> Mr.Fitnah said:
> 
> 
> > Clearly Islam does not support free speech.
> ...



Why not consider answering from Conscience and reason, then backing it it with quotes. Exercise the brain a bit. Use Your words.


----------



## Fatality (Oct 2, 2009)

for kalam
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o8fTk0-2yPY]YouTube - Be pithy with your comments![/ame]
she has no vail so keep your eyes closed or allah will throw your dirty ass into his hell.


----------



## Mr.Fitnah (Oct 2, 2009)

Many muslims like to say " Islam forbids the killing of innocent people"
Please provide Islamic scripture to prove unequivocally non muslims are innocent.


----------



## theHawk (Oct 7, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> > Mr. Fitnah
> ...



Why would non-mulisms care about what is written in the Qu'ran?  It was written by a warmongering pedophile.  Anyone who considers such text as the word of a god cannot be reasoned with.


----------



## Mr.Fitnah (Oct 7, 2009)

theHawk said:


> Mr.Fitnah said:
> 
> 
> > Sunni Man said:
> ...



Since Islam calls for my death  and the eradication of liberty and freedom, I believe it is a valid  topic for the future of America and western values .


----------



## theHawk (Oct 7, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> Since Islam calls for my death  and the eradication of liberty and freedom, I believe it is a valid  topic for the future of America and western values .



Sure Islam and its followers are valid topic for all of us, they are our biggest threat.  My point is what would it matter if there is a passage in the Qu'ran that shows what you are asking for?  We have to consider the source.


----------



## Mr.Fitnah (Oct 7, 2009)

theHawk said:


> Mr.Fitnah said:
> 
> 
> > Since Islam calls for my death  and the eradication of liberty and freedom, I believe it is a valid  topic for the future of America and western values .
> ...


If such a passage were to prove unequvocally  that non muslims were innocent  ,then Islam would not be the threat you perceive it to be.


----------



## theHawk (Oct 7, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> If such a passage were to prove unequvocally  that non muslims were innocent  ,then Islam would not be the threat you perceive it to be.



I beg to differ, Islam has already proven to be a threat.  Even if there is such text within the Pedophile Prophet's writings, its obviously being ignored by his followers.


----------



## Mr.Fitnah (Oct 7, 2009)

theHawk said:


> Mr.Fitnah said:
> 
> 
> > If such a passage were to prove unequvocally  that non muslims were innocent  ,then Islam would not be the threat you perceive it to be.
> ...


We would need proof of  the existence, before we can confirm it is being ignored.


----------



## theHawk (Oct 7, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> We would need proof of  the existence, before we can confirm it is being ignored.



I haven't read through the 65+ pages of this thread.

I'll assume you haven't found it.  Which doesn't surprise me 

You're basically asking Muslims to back up their own lies.  Don't hold your breath


----------



## Mr.Fitnah (Oct 10, 2009)

Many muslims like to say "Islam forbids the killing of innocent people", I'm asking for some one to proves unequivocally using Islamic scripture that non muslims are innocent.


----------



## betchamad (Oct 11, 2009)

Satanic islamic shall be elimination totally,their evil temple which worship satan allah shall be destory,for mother Church's mercyful,those muslim can be tired on the stick and burn alive,so when the pain is enough,the demons which send by satan allah living in their body will be pushed out,so their soul can go purgatory but not eternal hell.Amen.


----------



## Sunni Man (Oct 11, 2009)

betchamad said:


> Satanic islamic shall be elimination totally,their evil temple which worship satan allah shall be destory,for mother Church's mercyful,those muslim can be tired on the stick and burn alive,so when the pain is enough,the demons which send by satan allah living in their body will be pushed out,so their soul can go purgatory but not eternal hell.Amen.



Looks like theHawk and Mr Fitnuts have a new friend!!!


----------



## Mr.Fitnah (Oct 11, 2009)

Betch Amad, sounds arabic to me.


----------



## mal (Oct 11, 2009)

I Here Iran is going to Execute some Dissenters...

Peace, Love and Tolerance of others.



peace...


----------



## Sunni Man (Oct 11, 2009)

tha malcontent said:


> I Here Iran is going to Execute some Dissenters...
> 
> Peace, Love and *Tolerance of others*.


Islam has never stated that it is a religion of "tolerance"  

Tolerance is a secular invention that is idol worshipped by the west.


----------



## Intense (Oct 11, 2009)

Chop, Chop!, Chop! ... Next 3 in line, move ahead! Head, get it, move it out of the way and bend over! ...
Chop! Chop!, Chop! ... Next 3 in line, move ahead! Head, get it, move it out of the way and bend over! ...
Chop! Chop!, Chop! ... Next 3 in line, move ahead! Head, get it, move it out of the way and bend over! ...

Praise Mohammed!


----------



## Sunni Man (Oct 11, 2009)

We execute criminals here in America, but just use a different method.

I personally support capital punishment.

That other countries also have capital punishment is just fine with me.


----------



## betchamad (Oct 11, 2009)

Shall kick out any muslim from christianland,remove the danger inside our neightbourhood.


----------



## Intense (Oct 12, 2009)

Sunni Man said:


> We execute criminals here in America, but just use a different method.
> 
> I personally support capital punishment.
> 
> That other countries also have capital punishment is just fine with me.



Not for changing Your Religion.


----------



## Sunni Man (Oct 12, 2009)

Intense said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> > We execute criminals here in America, but just use a different method.
> ...


Every country has it's own unique laws.

I support law and order.

If another country wants to make certain laws that reflect their culture's morals and values.

What's it to me or you?


----------



## Intense (Oct 12, 2009)

Sunni Man said:


> Intense said:
> 
> 
> > Sunni Man said:
> ...



When it violates Natural Rights, it has meaning. If it is a strong offense to God it has meaning.

If It's end is Global Domination, it has meaning.

Universal Declaration of Rights. PREAMBLE
Whereas recognition of the inherent dignity and of the equal and inalienable rights of all members of the human family is the foundation of freedom, justice and peace in the world, 

Whereas disregard and contempt for human rights have resulted in barbarous acts which have outraged the conscience of mankind, and the advent of a world in which human beings shall enjoy freedom of speech and belief and freedom from fear and want has been proclaimed as the highest aspiration of the common people, 

Whereas it is essential, if man is not to be compelled to have recourse, as a last resort, to rebellion against tyranny and oppression, that human rights should be protected by the rule of law, 

Whereas it is essential to promote the development of friendly relations between nations, 

Whereas the peoples of the United Nations have in the Charter reaffirmed their faith in fundamental human rights, in the dignity and worth of the human person and in the equal rights of men and women and have determined to promote social progress and better standards of life in larger freedom, 

Whereas Member States have pledged themselves to achieve, in co-operation with the United Nations, the promotion of universal respect for and observance of human rights and fundamental freedoms, 

Whereas a common understanding of these rights and freedoms is of the greatest importance for the full realization of this pledge,

Now, Therefore THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY proclaims THIS UNIVERSAL DECLARATION OF HUMAN RIGHTS as a common standard of achievement for all peoples and all nations, to the end that every individual and every organ of society, keeping this Declaration constantly in mind, shall strive by teaching and education to promote respect for these rights and freedoms and by progressive measures, national and international, to secure their universal and effective recognition and observance, both among the peoples of Member States themselves and among the peoples of territories under their jurisdiction.


Article 1.
All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Article 2.
Everyone is entitled to all the rights and freedoms set forth in this Declaration, without distinction of any kind, such as race, colour, sex, language, religion, political or other opinion, national or social origin, property, birth or other status. Furthermore, no distinction shall be made on the basis of the political, jurisdictional or international status of the country or territory to which a person belongs, whether it be independent, trust, non-self-governing or under any other limitation of sovereignty.
Article 3.
Everyone has the right to life, liberty and security of person.
Article 4.
No one shall be held in slavery or servitude; slavery and the slave trade shall be prohibited in all their forms.
Article 5.
No one shall be subjected to torture or to cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment.
Article 6.
Everyone has the right to recognition everywhere as a person before the law.
Article 7.
All are equal before the law and are entitled without any discrimination to equal protection of the law. All are entitled to equal protection against any discrimination in violation of this Declaration and against any incitement to such discrimination.
Article 8.
Everyone has the right to an effective remedy by the competent national tribunals for acts violating the fundamental rights granted him by the constitution or by law.
Article 9.
No one shall be subjected to arbitrary arrest, detention or exile.
Article 10.
Everyone is entitled in full equality to a fair and public hearing by an independent and impartial tribunal, in the determination of his rights and obligations and of any criminal charge against him.
Article 11.
(1) Everyone charged with a penal offence has the right to be presumed innocent until proved guilty according to law in a public trial at which he has had all the guarantees necessary for his defence.
(2) No one shall be held guilty of any penal offence on account of any act or omission which did not constitute a penal offence, under national or international law, at the time when it was committed. Nor shall a heavier penalty be imposed than the one that was applicable at the time the penal offence was committed.
Article 12.
No one shall be subjected to arbitrary interference with his privacy, family, home or correspondence, nor to attacks upon his honour and reputation. Everyone has the right to the protection of the law against such interference or attacks.
Article 13.
(1) Everyone has the right to freedom of movement and residence within the borders of each state.
(2) Everyone has the right to leave any country, including his own, and to return to his country.
Article 14.
(1) Everyone has the right to seek and to enjoy in other countries asylum from persecution.
(2) This right may not be invoked in the case of prosecutions genuinely arising from non-political crimes or from acts contrary to the purposes and principles of the United Nations.
Article 15.
(1) Everyone has the right to a nationality.
(2) No one shall be arbitrarily deprived of his nationality nor denied the right to change his nationality.
Article 16.
(1) Men and women of full age, without any limitation due to race, nationality or religion, have the right to marry and to found a family. They are entitled to equal rights as to marriage, during marriage and at its dissolution.
(2) Marriage shall be entered into only with the free and full consent of the intending spouses.
(3) The family is the natural and fundamental group unit of society and is entitled to protection by society and the State.
Article 17.
(1) Everyone has the right to own property alone as well as in association with others.
(2) No one shall be arbitrarily deprived of his property.
Article 18.
Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion; this right includes freedom to change his religion or belief, and freedom, either alone or in community with others and in public or private, to manifest his religion or belief in teaching, practice, worship and observance.
Article 19.
Everyone has the right to freedom of opinion and expression; this right includes freedom to hold opinions without interference and to seek, receive and impart information and ideas through any media and regardless of frontiers.
Article 20.
(1) Everyone has the right to freedom of peaceful assembly and association.
(2) No one may be compelled to belong to an association.
Article 21.
(1) Everyone has the right to take part in the government of his country, directly or through freely chosen representatives.
(2) Everyone has the right of equal access to public service in his country.
(3) The will of the people shall be the basis of the authority of government; this will shall be expressed in periodic and genuine elections which shall be by universal and equal suffrage and shall be held by secret vote or by equivalent free voting procedures.
Article 22.
Everyone, as a member of society, has the right to social security and is entitled to realization, through national effort and international co-operation and in accordance with the organization and resources of each State, of the economic, social and cultural rights indispensable for his dignity and the free development of his personality.
Article 23.
(1) Everyone has the right to work, to free choice of employment, to just and favourable conditions of work and to protection against unemployment.
(2) Everyone, without any discrimination, has the right to equal pay for equal work.
(3) Everyone who works has the right to just and favourable remuneration ensuring for himself and his family an existence worthy of human dignity, and supplemented, if necessary, by other means of social protection.
(4) Everyone has the right to form and to join trade unions for the protection of his interests.
Article 24.
Everyone has the right to rest and leisure, including reasonable limitation of working hours and periodic holidays with pay.
Article 25.
(1) Everyone has the right to a standard of living adequate for the health and well-being of himself and of his family, including food, clothing, housing and medical care and necessary social services, and the right to security in the event of unemployment, sickness, disability, widowhood, old age or other lack of livelihood in circumstances beyond his control.
(2) Motherhood and childhood are entitled to special care and assistance. All children, whether born in or out of wedlock, shall enjoy the same social protection.
Article 26.
(1) Everyone has the right to education. Education shall be free, at least in the elementary and fundamental stages. Elementary education shall be compulsory. Technical and professional education shall be made generally available and higher education shall be equally accessible to all on the basis of merit.
(2) Education shall be directed to the full development of the human personality and to the strengthening of respect for human rights and fundamental freedoms. It shall promote understanding, tolerance and friendship among all nations, racial or religious groups, and shall further the activities of the United Nations for the maintenance of peace.
(3) Parents have a prior right to choose the kind of education that shall be given to their children.
Article 27.
(1) Everyone has the right freely to participate in the cultural life of the community, to enjoy the arts and to share in scientific advancement and its benefits.
(2) Everyone has the right to the protection of the moral and material interests resulting from any scientific, literary or artistic production of which he is the author.
Article 28.
Everyone is entitled to a social and international order in which the rights and freedoms set forth in this Declaration can be fully realized.
Article 29.
(1) Everyone has duties to the community in which alone the free and full development of his personality is possible.
(2) In the exercise of his rights and freedoms, everyone shall be subject only to such limitations as are determined by law solely for the purpose of securing due recognition and respect for the rights and freedoms of others and of meeting the just requirements of morality, public order and the general welfare in a democratic society.
(3) These rights and freedoms may in no case be exercised contrary to the purposes and principles of the United Nations.
Article 30.
Nothing in this Declaration may be interpreted as implying for any State, group or person any right to engage in any activity or to perform any act aimed at the destruction of any of the rights and freedoms set forth herein.

The Universal Declaration of Human Rights

How about starting there.


----------



## Sunni Man (Oct 12, 2009)

So you want the UN to control the world and mankind?


----------



## Mr.Fitnah (Oct 12, 2009)

Sunni Man said:


> So you want the UN to control the world and mankind?



http://www.usmessageboard.com/1582318-post15.html


----------



## Mr.Fitnah (Oct 12, 2009)

Sa'id Raja'i-Khorassani, the Permanent Delegate to the United Nations from the Islamic Republic of Iran, declared, according to Amir Taheri, that "the very concept of human rights was 'a Judeo-Christian invention' and inadmissible in Islam. . .

. According to Ayatollah Khomeini, one of the Shah's 'most despicable sins' was the fact that Iran was one of the original group of nations that drafted and approved the Universal Declaration of Human Rights."


----------



## Intense (Oct 12, 2009)

Sunni Man said:


> So you want the UN to control the world and mankind?



Nope!!! I'm just glad they at least give lip service to Inalienable Rights. Maybe some time they will actually take it more seriously. That is my Hope!


----------



## Intense (Oct 12, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> Sa'id Raja'i-Khorassani, the Permanent Delegate to the United Nations from the Islamic Republic of Iran, declared, according to Amir Taheri, that "the very concept of human rights was 'a Judeo-Christian invention' and inadmissible in Islam. . .
> 
> . According to Ayatollah Khomeini, one of the Shah's 'most despicable sins' was the fact that Iran was one of the original group of nations that drafted and approved the Universal Declaration of Human Rights."



Very noble and Selfless of the Shah. I now hold Him in even Higher Regard. Your Great Great Grand Kids will sing songs of His Wisdom, in English.


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## Mr.Fitnah (Oct 14, 2009)

Many muslims like to say "Islam forbids the killing of innocent people", I'm asking for some one to proves unequivocally using Islamic scripture that non muslims are innocent.


----------



## Godboy (Oct 14, 2009)

If islam is a peaceful religion, why isnt there peace in islamic nations?


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## betchamad (Oct 15, 2009)

Ayatollah Khomeini say "their Jesus said,when somebody hit u in the lift face,turn another face to him,that is wrong!!" So,by his logic,american help him to back his contury,and let him taken over the goverment but he biten the hand that feeds one,violation of base principle in diplomatic,kitnap diplomats....what shall usa pay him back?I think in his shithead satanic islamic revenge logic,if he is on american's stand,reward such treatment,usa shall launch the ICBM to boom the whole iran into dest.


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## Mr.Fitnah (Oct 18, 2009)

Kalam said:


> Mr.Fitnah said:
> 
> 
> > Kalam said:
> ...



http://www.usmessageboard.com/1628053-post118.html


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## Mr.Fitnah (Oct 18, 2009)

A concession and reversal  after hundreds of posts where he held the opposite position.


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## Fatality (Oct 19, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> A concession and reversal  after hundreds of posts where he held the opposite position.



yep, so it is. expecting a denial and a new tap dance to begin shorthly.


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## mal (Oct 19, 2009)

Godboy said:


> If islam is a peaceful religion, why isnt there peace in islamic nations?



Ask if there are any Innoncent Jews...



peace...


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## Liability (Oct 19, 2009)

del said:


> Mr.Fitnah said:
> 
> 
> > Many muslims like to say "Islam forbids the killing of innocent people", I'm asking for someone to prove unequivocally using Islamic scripture that non muslims are innocent, Thanks for reading my post.
> ...



Actually, no he is not.  He is absolutely consistent, but that is not the hallmark of being an idiot (of either the celibate or the fucking variety).

If there is some Islamic scripture that clearly answers his question, it has yet to be posted.

Islam forbids killing the "innocent," supposedly.  But if Islam -- *by its own terms* -- defines as "innocent" only adherents of Islam, then by straightforward logic, Islam does NOT forbid the killing of non-Muslims.

If the answer to Mr. F.'s question was some simple and straightforward scripturally based command, then it is nothing short of amazing that nobody (and that means NObody) has yet been able or willing to provide the answer.


----------



## mal (Oct 19, 2009)

Liability said:


> del said:
> 
> 
> > Mr.Fitnah said:
> ...



When the Islamic Sympathizing Left has no Counter in Debate, they Attack...

There is no More or Less to this.



peace...


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## mal (Oct 19, 2009)

Surah 47:4: Fa'idh&#257; Laq&#299;tumu Al-Ladh&#299;na Kafar&#363; Fa&#273;arba Ar-Riq&#257;bi &#292;attaá 'Idh&#257; 'Athkhantum&#363;hum Fashudd&#363; Al-Wath&#257;qa Fa'imm&#257; Mann&#257;an Ba`du Wa 'Imm&#257; Fid&#257;'an &#292;attaá Ta&#273;a`a Al-&#292;arbu 'Awz&#257;rah&#257; Dh&#257;lika Wa Law Yash&#257;'u All&#257;hu L&#257;nta&#351;ara Minhum Wa Lakin Liyabluwa Ba`&#273;akum Biba`&#273;in Wa Al-Ladh&#299;na Qutil&#363; F&#299; Sab&#299;li All&#257;hi Falan Yu&#273;illa 'A`m&#257;lahum



peace...


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## Kalam (Oct 19, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> A concession and reversal  after hundreds of posts where he held the opposite position.


----------



## Mr.Fitnah (Oct 20, 2009)

Kalam said:


> Mr.Fitnah said:
> 
> 
> > A concession and reversal  after hundreds of posts where he held the opposite position.


----------



## PixieStix (Oct 20, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


>


 
That is exactly what I was thinking


----------



## mal (Oct 20, 2009)

tha malcontent said:


> Surah 47:4: Fa'idh&#257; Laq&#299;tumu Al-Ladh&#299;na Kafar&#363; Fa&#273;arba Ar-Riq&#257;bi &#292;attaá 'Idh&#257; 'Athkhantum&#363;hum Fashudd&#363; Al-Wath&#257;qa Fa'imm&#257; Mann&#257;an Ba`du Wa 'Imm&#257; Fid&#257;'an &#292;attaá Ta&#273;a`a Al-&#292;arbu 'Awz&#257;rah&#257; Dh&#257;lika Wa Law Yash&#257;'u All&#257;hu L&#257;nta&#351;ara Minhum Wa Lakin Liyabluwa Ba`&#273;akum Biba`&#273;in Wa Al-Ladh&#299;na Qutil&#363; F&#299; Sab&#299;li All&#257;hi Falan Yu&#273;illa 'A`m&#257;lahum
> 
> 
> 
> peace...



Or:

_Therefore, WHEN YOU MEET THE UNBELIEVERS, SMITE AT THEIR NECKS; At length, when ye have thoroughly subdued them, bind a bond firmly (on them): thereafter (is the time for) either generosity or ransom: Until the war lays down its burdens. Thus (are ye commanded): but if it had been Allah's Will, He could certainly have exacted retribution from them (Himself); but (He lets you fight) in order to test you, some with others. But those who are slain in the Way of Allah,- He will never let their deeds be lost._



peace...


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## actsnoblemartin (Oct 20, 2009)

islamic scripure is very clear about how to treat non believers of allah

be-friend them, (pretend to be their friends)

then when the time is right, kill them

Ive seen the passages with my own eyes


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## Mr.Fitnah (Oct 20, 2009)

actsnoblemartin said:


> islamic scripure is very clear about how to treat non believers of allah
> 
> be-friend them, (pretend to be their friends)
> 
> ...


I  find it much  more effective to post what the scripture says,
 rather than claim it says something and not be able to prove it.


----------



## Intense (Oct 20, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> actsnoblemartin said:
> 
> 
> > islamic scripure is very clear about how to treat non believers of allah
> ...



Didn't Mohamed conquer a Town that way, by fooling them, Early on???


----------



## Sunni Man (Oct 20, 2009)

actsnoblemartin said:


> islamic scripure is very clear about how to treat non believers of allah
> 
> be-friend them, (pretend to be their friends)
> 
> ...


Actsnoblemartin, those instructions were given during a time of war.

It is called being a double agent.

Where you befriend your enemy and gain their trust. Then when the time is right. You turn on them and kill them.

All nations and armies have used this strategy of war to gain the advantage.

When those verses are read in the historical context of a war almost 1400 years ago. They make perfect sense.

But they only apply to that specific time and that specific war.

They have nothing to do with todays events.


----------



## Intense (Oct 20, 2009)

Sunni Man said:


> actsnoblemartin said:
> 
> 
> > islamic scripure is very clear about how to treat non believers of allah
> ...



What is Jihad?


----------



## Liability (Oct 20, 2009)

Intense said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> > actsnoblemartin said:
> ...



what is Jihad?

As every devout adherent of true Islam will tell you (since being devoutly Islamic entails being given permission to outright lie to all infidels):  Jihad means "peaceful struggle."

(And some of them can even say that bullshit with a straight face!)


----------



## Kalam (Oct 20, 2009)

Intense said:


> What is Jihad?



Excerpted from Lane's Arabic-English Lexicon:

&#1580;&#1607;&#1575;&#1583;, inf. n. of &#1580;&#1575;&#1607;&#1583;, properly signifies The _using_, or _exerting_, _one's utmost power_, _efforts_, _endeavours_, or _ability_, _in contending with an object of disapprobation_; and this is of three kinds, namely, a visible enemy, the devil, and one's self; all of which are included in the term as used in the Kur xxii. 77. (Er-Râghib, TA.)​

Excerpted from Abdul Mannan Omar's _Dictionary of the Holy Qur'an_:

*Jihâd* &#1580;&#1607;&#1575;&#1583;: Exerting of one&#8217;s utmost power in contending with an object of disapprobation. It is only in a secondary sense that the word signifies fighting or holy war. It is exerting one&#8217;s self to the extent of one&#8217;s ability and power whether it is by word (qaul) or deed (&#61472;fi&#8216;l). There is nothing in the word to indicate that this striving is to be effected by the sword (Râzî). According to Râghib Jihâd is a struggle against a visible enemy, a devil inciting to sin and against one's self which incites to evil. (Râghib). Jihâd is, therefore, far from being synonymous with war. Its meaning as war undertaken for the propagation of religion is unknown to the Arabic language and Islâm. Imâm Bukhârî in his Book of Jihâd has several chapters speaking of simple invitation to Islam (13.56,99, 100, 102, 143, 145, 178). This fact indicates that up to the time of Bukhârî (194-256 A.H.) the word Jihâd was used in the same sense as is used in the Holy Qur&#8217;ân. Other books of traditions contain similar references. Fighting in defence of faith received the name of Jihâd because under some circumstances it became necessary for the truth to live and prosper, if fighting had not been permitted, truth would have been uprooted. The greatest Jihâd which a Muslim must carry on is by means of the Holy Qur&#8217;ân, which can be carried out by every person under all conditions and circumstances (25:52).​


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## Kalam (Oct 20, 2009)

Liability said:


> As every devout adherent of true Islam will tell you (since being devoutly Islamic entails being given permission to outright lie to all infidels)


Don't be ridiculous. Accusations of "lying to unbelievers" are tossed out by Islamophobes who have nothing substantive to add to the discussion. Nothing but a pitiful, failed attempt to discredit your opposition.



Liability said:


> Jihad means "peaceful struggle."


This is the first time I've seen it defined in such a way.


----------



## Mr.Fitnah (Oct 20, 2009)

The passage itself can be found in two places. It is on page 54 of  my copy of the Noble Qur&#8217;an 
translation by Muhammad Khan and distributed by &#8220;King Fahd Complex for the Printing of the Holy Qur&#8217;an&#8212;The Custodian of the Two Holy Mosques. It is a footnote to Qur&#8217;an 2.190 and is designed to explain Jihad according to Allah as this is the first time the word is used. 


And it can be found on page 580 of the Islamic University of Medina&#8217;s translation of Sahih al-Bukhari&#8217;s Hadith. There it opens Bukhari&#8217;s Book of Jihad. 


 In both cases, the Islamic scholars are condensing Allah&#8217;s and Muhammad&#8217;s teachings on Jihad to a single paragraph.


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## Sunni Man (Oct 20, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> The passage itself can be found in two places. It is on page 54 of  my copy of the Noble Quran
> translation by Muhammad Khan and distributed by King Fahd Complex for the Printing of the Holy QuranThe Custodian of the Two Holy Mosques. It is a footnote to Quran 2.190 and is designed to explain Jihad according to Allah as this is the first time the word is used.
> 
> 
> ...


Once again Mr Fitnah,

You have listed a footnote which is a persons opinion.

Same with Bukharis Book of Jihad. 

They cannot speak for the Quran. 

They can only interpret what they believe it says.


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## Mr.Fitnah (Oct 20, 2009)

Kalam said:


> Liability said:
> 
> 
> > As every devout adherent of true Islam will tell you (since being devoutly Islamic entails being given permission to outright lie to all infidels)
> ...


http://www.usmessageboard.com/1492201-post798.html


----------



## Mr.Fitnah (Oct 20, 2009)

Sunni Man said:


> Mr.Fitnah said:
> 
> 
> > The passage itself can be found in two places. It is on page 54 of  my copy of the Noble Quran
> ...



Yeah Im sure  those opinions where just  random  words  pulled out of a hat then slapped in there.


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## Intense (Oct 21, 2009)

Oh what a tangled web we weave,
When first we practise to deceive!




Sir Walter Scott, Marmion, Canto vi. Stanza 17.
Scottish author & novelist (1771 - 1832) 

Quote Details: Sir Walter Scott: Oh what a tangled... - The Quotations Page


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## Liability (Oct 21, 2009)

Kalam said:


> Liability said:
> 
> 
> > As every devout adherent of true Islam will tell you (since being devoutly Islamic entails being given permission to outright lie to all infidels)
> ...



Wrong.   You lie when you make the intentionally dishonest claim that "Accusations of 'lying to unbelievers' are tossed out by Islamophobes who have nothing substantive to add * * * *"   It has been demonstrated repeatedly despite all the lies attempting to conceal the truth of it.  As you know.


----------



## Liability (Oct 21, 2009)

Islam not only permits lying, but it can be said to require it for deceiving the infidel:

Untitled Document

Good adherents of Islam will therefore deny the truth of this assertion.

Funny stuff.


----------



## Kalam (Oct 21, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> The passage itself can be found in two places. It is on page 54 of  my copy of the Noble Quran
> translation by Muhammad Khan and distributed by King Fahd Complex for the Printing of the Holy QuranThe Custodian of the Two Holy Mosques.



The Muhsin Khan "translation" isn't really a translation, it's a Wahhabi tafsir that is mass produced and distributed free-of-charge by Saudi Arabia for propaganda purposes. If you paid anything for it, you were ripped off. Let's use Al-Fatiha as an example; we'll compare Muhsin Khan's translation with those of three good translators.


Arthur John Arberry:
_Guide us in the straight path, the path of those whom Thou hast blessed, not of those against whom Thou art wrathful, nor of those who are astray._ - 1:6-7

Maulana Muhammad Ali:
_Guide us on the right path, the path of those upon whom Thou has bestowed favours, Not those upon whom wrath is brought down, nor those who go astray._ - 1:6-7

Mohammed Marmaduke Pickthall:
_Show us the straight path, the path of those whom Thou hast favoured; Not the (path) of those who earn Thine anger nor of those who go astray._ - 1:6-7

-----

Muhammad Muhsin Khan:
_Guide us to the Straight Way; The Way of those on whom You have bestowed Your Grace, not (the way) of those who earned Your Anger (such as the Jews), nor of those who went astray (such as the Christians)._ - 1:6-7​
That should give you an idea of the extent to which the Wahhabi translator warps the divine message for the purpose cof propagating his erroneous ideology. The author did not even have the decency to include his opinions as footnotes. Instead, he chose to insert them into the body of the Qur'an itself -- a manifest sin -- in a misleading attempt to make it seem as if they're actually part of the Recitation. 



Mr.Fitnah said:


> It is a footnote to Quran 2.190 and is designed to explain Jihad according to Allah as this is the first time the word is used.


Because it's evident that you have no real knowledge of the holy Qur'an, I'll assume that this statement was made out of ignorance and that it wasn't your intention to be dishonest. As you'll see, the word "jihad" does not appear in 2:190. In fact, it appears in few or none of the verses that deal explicitly with  physical conflict against an enemy. For this, the verb _qatala_ and its variations are used - this applies to the wars of Muslims as well as those of non-Muslims.

2:190 -

&#1608;&#1614;&#1602;&#1614;&#1648;&#1578;&#1616;&#1604;&#1615;&#1608;&#1575;&#1759; &#1601;&#1616;&#1609; &#1587;&#1614;&#1576;&#1616;&#1610;&#1604;&#1616; &#1649;&#1604;&#1604;&#1617;&#1614;&#1607;&#1616; &#1649;&#1604;&#1617;&#1614;&#1584;&#1616;&#1610;&#1606;&#1614; &#1610;&#1615;&#1602;&#1614;&#1648;&#1578;&#1616;&#1604;&#1615;&#1608;&#1606;&#1614;&#1603;&#1615;&#1605;&#1618; &#1608;&#1614;&#1604;&#1614;&#1575; &#1578;&#1614;&#1593;&#1618;&#1578;&#1614;&#1583;&#1615;&#1608;&#1619;&#1575;&#1759; &#1754; &#1573;&#1616;&#1606;&#1617;&#1614; &#1649;&#1604;&#1604;&#1617;&#1614;&#1607;&#1614; &#1604;&#1614;&#1575; &#1610;&#1615;&#1581;&#1616;&#1576;&#1617;&#1615; &#1649;&#1604;&#1618;&#1605;&#1615;&#1593;&#1618;&#1578;&#1614;&#1583;&#1616;&#1610;&#1606;&#1614;

_Waqatiloo fee sabeeli Allahi allatheena yuqatiloonakum wala taAAtadoo inna Allaha la yuhibbu almuAAtadeena_

_And fight in the way of God with those who fight with you, but aggress not: God loves not the aggressors._​
I am aware that Muhsin Khan claims that 2:190 was "the first [ayah] that was revealed in connection with Jihad," which is an outright lie, because it neither mentions "jihad" nor was it the first passage to deal with the concept. Chronologically, the first passages in which forms of the j-h-d trilateral were used are passages that deal with making and keeping oaths. 

The use of _jihad_ in the sense of "striving" occurred first in 31:15, which instructs believers to disobey their parents if their parents "strive" to make them disbelieve (they are instructed to treat them kindly nonetheless.) The first mention of believers' _jihad_ occurs in 16:110 -

_Then, surely thy Lord -- unto those who have emigrated after persecution, then struggled and were patient -- surely thy Lord thereafter is All-forgiving, All-compassionate._​


Mr.Fitnah said:


> And it can be found on page 580 of the Islamic University of Medinas translation of Sahih al-Bukharis Hadith. There it opens Bukharis Book of Jihad.


Care to tell us who the translator was? It was Muhsin Khan, was it not? 

You'll find that Sahih Bukhari contains no such definition of jihad; it was Muhsin Khan's addition. 



Mr.Fitnah said:


> In both cases, the Islamic scholars are condensing Allahs and Muhammads teachings on Jihad to a single paragraph.


In both cases, the same translator attempts to spread the same lies by amending texts to include his own false interpretation of jihad. An entirely accurate definition of jihad has already been provided. Muhsin Khan is a doctor by trade, not a scholar. He should not quit his day job. 

You'd do well to familiarize yourself with Lane's _Lexicon_ if you expect to be taken seriously; it's widely believed to be the best reference book of its kind for a reason.

Wa salam.


----------



## Kalam (Oct 21, 2009)

Liability said:


> Wrong. You lie when you make the intentionally dishonest claim that "Accusations of 'lying to unbelievers' are tossed out by Islamophobes who have nothing substantive to add * * * *" It has been demonstrated repeatedly despite all the lies attempting to conceal the truth of it.  As you know.



You will find that the Qur'an does not permit lying. A Muslim is allowed to conceal his faith if failure to do so will result in his death; this is simply a matter of self-preservation. The article you cite implicitly acknowledges that lying is forbidden by the Qur'an when it states that "unintentional lies" and even "intentional lies" are sins that can be remitted through devotion. This is true of all sins in Islam with one or two possible exceptions.

I will ignore anything the author of the article cites that isn't the Qur'an or a hadith; the opinions of individuals and the actions of politicians are irrelevant. Because I don't treat any hadith collection canonically and most of the Ahl as-Sunnah don't consider me one of their own, I don't really feel any obligation to defend Sunni hadith collections. I will do so anyway, because the author's claims are so ridiculous. For the Ahl as-Sunnah, dishonesty is permissible in three situations only:

_Humaid b. 'Abd al-Rahman b. 'Auf reported that his mother Umm Kulthum daughter of 'Uqba b. Abu Mu'ait, and she was one amongst the first emigrants who pledged allegiance to Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him), as saying that she heard Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: A liar is not one who tries to bring reconciliation amongst people and speaks good (in order to avert dispute), or he conveys good. Ibn Shihab said he did not hear that exemption was granted in anything what the people speak as lie but in *three cases:* *in battle, for bringing reconciliation amongst persons and the narration of the words of the husband to his wife, and the narration of the words of a wife to her husband (in a twisted form in order to bring reconciliation between them).*_ - Sahih Muslim, Kitab Al-Birr was-Salat-I-wal-Adab, #6303.​
Muslims, therefore, are not able to lie to disbelievers simply because they're disbelievers. In my opinion and according to the words of the holy Qur'an, a Muslim may never lie, but may conceal his or her faith in a life-or-death situation if the need arises. If you're interested in learning about Islam, I suggest finding a neutral source of information.

Wa salam.


----------



## Mr.Fitnah (Oct 21, 2009)

Kalam said:


> Mr.Fitnah said:
> 
> 
> > And it can be found on page 580 of the Islamic University of Medina&#8217;s translation of Sahih al-Bukhari&#8217;s Hadith. There it opens Bukhari&#8217;s Book of Jihad.
> ...


The translator is As far as I know is Ustadha Aisha Bewley,
You can  go to your mosque and check it yourself.


The post stands as  the most accurate  interpretation of the meaning of the Quran.The Noble Quran translation is in total harmony with what is know of  the early history of Islam.
Edit  yes there is a edition by Khan.
It is mainstream Islam jack.


----------



## Intense (Oct 21, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> Kalam said:
> 
> 
> > Mr.Fitnah said:
> ...



What really amazes me though is all of the Millions of Muslims that are so misinformed about such matters. Somebody should denounce all of this bloodshed and terror. Make toasters not bombs, don't you think?  It would change the whole world over night.


----------



## Mr.Fitnah (Oct 21, 2009)




----------



## Sunni Man (Oct 21, 2009)

Intense said:


> What really amazes me though is all of the Millions of Muslims that are so misinformed about such matters. *Somebody should denounce all of this bloodshed and terror*.



OK I will do that right now:

"The Western nations should immediately get out of Iraq and Afghanistain and stop all of this bloodshed and terror".

There I said it:

Now are you Happy???


----------



## Mr.Fitnah (Oct 21, 2009)

Sunni Man said:


> Intense said:
> 
> 
> > What really amazes me though is all of the Millions of Muslims that are so misinformed about such matters. *Somebody should denounce all of this bloodshed and terror*.
> ...


You want the Jews out of Israel as well?


----------



## Mr.Fitnah (Oct 21, 2009)

&#8220;The killing of civilians was considered OK because civilians are taxpayers and are non-believers,&#8221; Loucks said. He wouldn&#8217;t disclose where the attacks were supposed to take place.

Massachusetts Man Accused of Plotting âViolent Jihadâ (Update3) - Bloomberg.com


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## Sunni Man (Oct 21, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> > Intense said:
> ...


If you have ever been listening 'to my words.

I have NEVER advocated driving the Jews out of Israel.

They have a right to live there as citizens.

It's the "Zionist government" that needs to be driven from power.


----------



## Mr.Fitnah (Oct 21, 2009)

I thought Id ask you  are a well of entertaining wackballary 
I figured since  Farrakhan came out with some new nuttery you might be in the mood as well.


----------



## Sunni Man (Oct 21, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> I thought Id ask you  are a well of entertaining wackballary
> I figured since  Farrakhan came out with some new buttery you might be in the mood as well.


Farrakhan???


----------



## Mr.Fitnah (Oct 21, 2009)

Louis Farrakhan: H1N1 Vaccine Developed to Kill People
FOXNews - &#8206;9 hours ago&#8206;
Nation of Islam leader Louis Farrakhan said the H1N1 flu vaccine was developed to kill people, UPI reported. "The Earth can't take 6.5 billion people.


----------



## Kalam (Oct 21, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> The translator ias far as I know is Ustadha Aisha Bewley,
> You can  go to your mosque and check it yourself.


I ask because I know that Muhsin Khan produced one of the only English translations of the full Sahih Bukhari. If I'm not mistaken, Aisha Bewley is a Sufi...



Mr.Fitnah said:


> The post stands as  the most accurate  interpretation of the meaning of the Quran.The Noble Quran translation is in total harmony with what is know of  the early history of Islam.


Muhsin Khan's Qur'an is little more than a polemic against non-Wahhabi religious beliefs, disguised as a legitimate translation. You'll eventually realize that his rendition is more reflective of his personal beliefs than it is of the Qur'an's true words. Then again, you may not know this because you may have no basis for comparison. Hopefully, seeing that Muhsin Khan lies to his readers unabashedly (2:190 "jihad" commentary) and that he attempts to alter verses whose meanings have already been established and accepted by all Muslims (al-Fatiha) will help you understand that his translation is inadequate.

The best translations, IMO, are the three I posted. M. M. Ali's has the most complete and useful index of any translation, and his commentary is both extensive and superb. I could hardly disagree more with his Ahmadi beliefs, but his translation and tafsir remain largely unparalleled by any other Islamic works in English except, of course, his other books, many of which were specifically endorsed by Al-Azhar University. Though they'll refuse to admit it, M. M. Ali's Qur'an has been the standby for other translators - especially Pickthall, who knew him, and Shakir, who seems to have plagiarized from it directly. It is marred only by one or two questionable translations of individual words, none of any real significance, which he at least attempts to justify in his commentary. 

Arthur Arberry's translation may be the most unbiased and is about as good as M. M. Ali's in terms of faithfulness to the original text. If you detect bias in another translation, I would check it using Arberry's. He was neither a Muslim nor an anti-Islamic bigot, and IIRC his level of fluency in Arabic was such that he was professor of the subject at Cairo University. His work lacks M. M. Ali's commentary, however, which is instrumental for understanding the historical context of certain passages.  I included Marmaduke Pickthall's because it's probably one of the most well-known and there aren't any major problems with it. If you're truly interested in being "proven wrong about Islam," you'll abandon shoddier translations in favor of these and open your mind to the true meaning of the Qur'an. Here is another extremely useful Qur'anic resource if you're at all familiar with the Arabic abjad:

| Project Root List | Quran Concordance, Grammar and Dictionary in one!

Here is Lane's Lexicon. You'll need at least a rudimentary knowledge of Arabic to make use of it, but it and similar resources are crucial to understanding the meaning of the Qur'an:

Edward William Lane's Arabic-English Lexicon FREE


----------



## Kalam (Oct 21, 2009)

Intense said:


> What really amazes me though is all of the Millions of Muslims that are so misinformed about such matters.



You aren't alone.


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## Mr.Fitnah (Oct 21, 2009)

8:39. And fight them on until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah altogether and everywhere; but if they cease, verily Allah doth see all that they do.

8:39

And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and polytheism: i.e. worshipping others besides Allâh) and the religion (worship) will all be for Allâh Alone [in the whole of the world[]]. But if they cease (worshipping others besides Allâh), then certainly, Allâh is All-Seer of what they do 

Khan is superior in clarity.


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## Mr.Fitnah (Oct 21, 2009)

The fact is "kalam" your Islam doesn't explain the Islam people see on the news,
 Mine does.
People dont care about unicorns,Your Islam doesn't exists in the real world.
They want to know what is real.

&#8220;The killing of civilians was considered OK because civilians are taxpayers and are non-believers,&#8221; Loucks said. He wouldn&#8217;t disclose where the attacks were supposed to take place.

Massachusetts Man Accused of Plotting â&#8364;&#732;Violent Jihadâ&#8364;&#8482; (Update3) - Bloomberg.com


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## Sunni Man (Oct 21, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> The fact is "kalam" your Islam doesn't explain the Islam people see on the news,
> Mine does.
> People dont care about unicorns,Your Islam doesn't exists in the real world.
> They want to know what is real.
> ...


One mans actions do not represent a billion Muslims.

Just as Timmothy McVeighs actions do not represent a billion Christians.


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## Kalam (Oct 21, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> 8:39. And fight them on until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah altogether and everywhere; but if they cease, verily Allah doth see all that they do.
> 
> 8:39
> 
> ...



Khan imposes his own definitions and interprets verses beyond their actual meaning. Case in point: "_(disbelief and polytheism: i.e. worshipping others besides Allâh)_"

The suggestion that _fitnah _denotes "disbelief and polytheism" is ludicrously inaccurate. It can connote temptation, but this is neither the primary usage nor is it in any way equivalent to meaning "disbelief." The suggested meaning is certainly not the definition of the word used in the verse, _fitnatun_.

The passage being discussed:

&#1608;&#1614;&#1602;&#1614;&#1648;&#1578;&#1616;&#1604;&#1615;&#1608;&#1607;&#1615;&#1605;&#1618; &#1581;&#1614;&#1578;&#1617;&#1614;&#1609;&#1648; &#1604;&#1614;&#1575; &#1578;&#1614;&#1603;&#1615;&#1608;&#1606;&#1614; &#1601;&#1616;&#1578;&#1618;&#1606;&#1614;&#1577;&#1612;&#1773; &#1608;&#1614;&#1610;&#1614;&#1603;&#1615;&#1608;&#1606;&#1614; &#1649;&#1604;&#1583;&#1617;&#1616;&#1610;&#1606;&#1615; &#1603;&#1615;&#1604;&#1617;&#1615;&#1607;&#1615;&#1765; &#1604;&#1616;&#1604;&#1617;&#1614;&#1607;&#1616; &#1754; &#1601;&#1614;&#1573;&#1616;&#1606;&#1616; &#1649;&#1606;&#1578;&#1614;&#1607;&#1614;&#1608;&#1618;&#1575;&#1759; &#1601;&#1614;&#1573;&#1616;&#1606;&#1617;&#1614; &#1649;&#1604;&#1604;&#1617;&#1614;&#1607;&#1614; &#1576;&#1616;&#1605;&#1614;&#1575; &#1610;&#1614;&#1593;&#1618;&#1605;&#1614;&#1604;&#1615;&#1608;&#1606;&#1614; &#1576;&#1614;&#1589;&#1616;&#1610;&#1585;&#1612;&#1773;

Waqatiloohum hatta la takoona *fitnatun *wayakoona alddeenu kulluhu lillahi faini intahaw fainna Allaha bima yaAAmaloona baseerun

_"Fight them, till there is no [fitnatun] and the religion is God's entirely; then if they give over, surely God sees the things they do"_​
Fitnatun: _"persecution, trial, probation, burning, assaying, reply, excuse, war, means whereby the condition of a person is evinced in respect of good or evil, hardship, punishment, answer, temptation, burning with fire."_

Moreover, this addition is baseless: "_(in the whole of the world)_"

"The religion" (ie: Islam)  is distinct from "worship."

Muhsin Khan's translation is quite poor. Plus, we know that he lies in his discussion of jihad. You're simply not being rational. Of course, you already know this.


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## Kalam (Oct 21, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> The fact is "kalam" your Islam doesn't explain the Islam people see on the news,


I would take that up with media outlets. 



Mr.Fitnah said:


> Mine does.


Perhaps it does for those who are naive enough to think that every crime committed in the Muslim world is attributable to religiosity and Islamic teachings. Admittedly, this sentiment seems to be somewhat widespread. Pay attention to the actions of "terrorists" and you'll find that they uphold the aspects of Islam that benefit their cause and ignore those aspects that don't. It has been made a mockery of in the worst way through its widespread use as a political tool... what a shame. 



Mr.Fitnah said:


> People dont care about unicorns,Your Islam doesn't exists in the real world. They want to know what is real.


No, they want a simple explanation. It has been provided for them in the form of Islam. Genocide in Africa? "Islam did it." Rape? "Islam did it." Any and all strife that takes place in North Africa, South Asia, and the Middle East? "Islam did it." Who can blame people for choosing an easy explanation? Why examine the myriad political, economic, social, and cultural influences that give rise to these issues when the blame can simply be placed on Islam? People may think they want to know what's real, but what they're really looking for are explanations that they can quickly and easily understand. As far as I'm concerned, this is confirmed by people being more interested in what's "on the news" than what's in the books.



Mr.Fitnah said:


> The killing of civilians was considered OK because civilians are taxpayers and are non-believers, Loucks said. He wouldnt disclose where the attacks were supposed to take place.


You will forgive me if I don't consider Tarek Mehanna an authority on Islam.


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## Mr.Fitnah (Oct 22, 2009)

Sunni Man said:


> Mr.Fitnah said:
> 
> 
> > The fact is "kalam" your Islam doesn't explain the Islam people see on the news,
> ...


McVeigh was an Atheist.
What do the actions of a billion people have to do with what is in the Koran and the Hadiths?

Do all Buddhists reach nirvana as is taught by their faith?

Do all Christians become saints?

The shaheed (martyr) is the highest of high in Islam in the eyes of Allah. Just because not all Muslims are mujahedeen does not change the fact that jihad is an intrinsic part of the religion.


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## Mr.Fitnah (Oct 22, 2009)

Kalam said:


> Mr.Fitnah said:
> 
> 
> > 8:39. And fight them on until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah altogether and everywhere; but if they cease, verily Allah doth see all that they do.
> ...



Um no.

Tafsir.com Tafsir Ibn Kathir
Islam Question and Answer - Meanings of the word fitnah in the Qur&#8217;aan


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## JW Frogen (Oct 22, 2009)

Allah can suck my big, fat juicey cock.

I will not even ask him to convert to reason before hand.


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## JW Frogen (Oct 22, 2009)

By the way, before you call me Islamo phobic, Jehova, Jesus, Budda, Vishnu and Moroni can do the same.

 I do have a soft spot for Dionysus however.


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## Mr.Fitnah (Oct 22, 2009)

Kalam said:


> Mr.Fitnah said:
> 
> 
> > The fact is "kalam" your Islam doesn't explain the Islam people see on the news,
> ...



Not ever crime committed by muslims is do to Islam 
But so many are  there is no reason to over look the possibility .
Since you reject most of what is in the books you might as well just watch the news.
The Islam, I present includes the Quran and  the sunna .

Just because it is  the simple answer doesn't make it the wrong answer.
Laying the blame on the Quran and Mohammad it appropriate 

What you judge as what is good  for the ummah is not necessarily what others agree with,
That you feel like Islam is being used as a tool elicits little  sympathy from me,your whining about tactics not the end results , in the  end as a muslim you benefit by getting your sharia law whether you like it or not.


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## JW Frogen (Oct 22, 2009)

What did Allah say when he found out he does not exist?

Blow me. And while you are at it, you blow you up too.


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## Mr.Fitnah (Oct 22, 2009)

Kalam said:


> Mr.Fitnah said:
> 
> 
> > The passage itself can be found in two places. It is on page 54 of  my copy of the Noble Qur&#8217;an
> ...


The" devine message" of the Quran  has some "issues when being translated  all translations attempt to reconcile this by adding the missing words, punctuation fixing  the grammar, At least Khan puts them in parentheses ,or in brackets to give some meaning to the quranic mess.
Most translations are tailored to  be inoffensive to western sensibilities .
The Noble Quran is  unapologetically direct


Mr.Fitnah said:


> It is a footnote to Qur&#8217;an 2.190 and is designed to explain Jihad according to Allah as this is the first time the word is used.
> Because it's evident that you have no real knowledge of the holy Qur'an, I'll assume that this statement was made out of ignorance and that it wasn't your intention to be dishonest. As you'll see, the word "jihad" does not appear in 2:190. In fact, it appears in few or none of the verses that deal explicitly with  physical conflict against an enemy. For this, the verb _qatala_ and its variations are used - this applies to the wars of Muslims as well as those of non-Muslims.
> 
> 2:190 -
> ...


Nice strawman stuff it yourself?
The Noble Quran : Surat 2

2:190. And fight in the Way of Allâh[] those who fight you, but transgress not the limits. Truly, Allâh likes not the transgressors. [This Verse is the first one that was revealed in connection with Jihâd, but it was supplemented by another (V.9:36)].

The Noble Quran : Surat 9

9:36. Verily, the number of months with Allâh is twelve months (in a year), so was it ordained by Allâh on the Day when He created the heavens and the earth; of them four are Sacred, (i.e. the 1st, the 7th, the 11th and the 12th months of the Islâmic calendar). That is the right religion, so wrong not yourselves therein, and fight against the Mushrikûn (polytheists, pagans, idolaters, disbelievers in the Oneness of Allâh) collectively[], as they fight against you collectively. But know that Allâh is with those who are Al-Muttaqûn (the pious - see V.2:2).

The translators and scholars correctly saw fighting in Allah's Cause and Jihad as being synonymous. If Jihad is not  fighting in allah's cause,  allah and muhammad are liars That is why they explained it this way.
2:190"Al-Jihad (holy fighting) in Allah's Cause with full force of numbers and weaponry..."
Violent jihad, holy fighting in allah's cause, is the only kind of jihad proscribed for muslims in the Quran and in scripture.


> I am aware that Muhsin Khan claims that 2:190 was "the first [ayah] that was revealed in connection with Jihad," which is an outright lie, because it neither mentions "jihad" nor was it the first passage to deal with the concept. Chronologically, the first passages in which forms of the j-h-d trilateral were used are passages that deal with making and keeping oaths.
> 
> The use of _jihad_ in the sense of "striving" occurred first in 31:15, which instructs believers to disobey their parents if their parents "strive" to make them disbelieve (they are instructed to treat them kindly nonetheless.) The first mention of believers' _jihad_ occurs in 16:110 -
> 
> _Then, surely thy Lord -- unto those who have emigrated after persecution, then struggled and were patient -- surely thy Lord thereafter is All-forgiving, All-compassionate._​


I have to assume that  this has to do with  the tense 16:110 being in past tense





> Mr.Fitnah said:
> 
> 
> > And it can be found on page 580 of the Islamic University of Medina&#8217;s translation of Sahih al-Bukhari&#8217;s Hadith. There it opens Bukhari&#8217;s Book of Jihad.
> ...



They have had ample opportunity to edit it if they though there an error.


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## Intense (Oct 22, 2009)

Sunni Man said:


> Intense said:
> 
> 
> > What really amazes me though is all of the Millions of Muslims that are so misinformed about such matters. *Somebody should denounce all of this bloodshed and terror*.
> ...



Call Everybody Home, leave us the fuck alone and you got a deal.


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## Kalam (Oct 25, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> Um no.



Unless you can provide reliable lexicographical citations that prove "fitnatun" is synonymous with "kufr" or "shirk", I accept your concession.


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## Mr.Fitnah (Oct 25, 2009)

Kalam said:


> Mr.Fitnah said:
> 
> 
> > Um no.
> ...


This is sufficient proof as to the multitude meanings of the fitnah. Including shirk and kufr.


Tafsir.com Tafsir Ibn Kathir
Islam Question and Answer - Meanings of the word fitnah in the Qur&#8217;aan


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## Kalam (Oct 25, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> The" devine message" of the Quran  has some "issues when being translated  all translations attempt to reconcile this by adding the missing words, punctuation fixing  the grammar, At least Khan puts them in parentheses ,or in brackets to give some meaning to the quranic mess.


This does not excuse the imposition of his false interpretation on the words of the holy Qur'an. His translation was intended to deceive and radicalize Muslims by dishonestly suggesting that Wahhabi beliefs are rooted in the Qur'an. That is why it's disseminated by the Saudis like a propaganda leaflet - that's essentially what it is. You have fallen victim to Saudi propaganda. 



Mr.Fitnah said:


> Most translations are tailored to  be inoffensive to western sensibilities.


Those that are have not risen to prominence among Muslim and non-Muslim academics. The most reliable translations are M. Ali's, Arberry's, and Pickthalls; they should be compared with each other and checked using proper lexicographical resources if any doubt about their accuracy arises. 



Mr.Fitnah said:


> The Noble Quran is  unapologetically direct


It's unapologetically direct in its butchering of the divine message, yes.



Mr.Fitnah said:


> Nice strawman stuff it yourself?


The "Noble Qur'an" claims that 2:190 is the first instance in which jihad was mentioned. Khan is a liar, because 2:190 does not mention "jihad" nor was it the first to describe war.



Mr.Fitnah said:


> The translators and scholars correctly saw fighting in Allah's Cause and Jihad as being synonymous. If Jihad is not  fighting in allah's cause,  allah and muhammad are liars That is why they explained it this way.


_Jihad fi sabil Allah_ is striving in the way of Allah. The suggestion that this refers exclusively or even mostly to warfare has no basis in Islam or the Qur'an. 



Mr.Fitnah said:


> Violent jihad, holy fighting in allah's cause, is the only kind of jihad proscribed for muslims in the Quran and in scripture.


That is patently false. "Jihad" is used almost only in a general sense in the Qur'an and imposing a specific meaning (ie: physical warfare) on it is involves falsely interpreting the divine message. This is confirmed in various ahadeeth.

_Narrated 'Aisha: I said, "O Allah's Apostle! We consider Jihad as the best deed." The Prophet said, "The best Jihad is Hajj Mabrur. " _ - Sahih Bukhari, _Hajj_, no. 595 & _Jihad_, no. 43

_Narrated 'Aisha: I said, "O Allah's Apostle! Shouldn't we participate in Holy battles and Jihad along with you?" He replied, "The best and the most superior Jihad is Hajj which is accepted by Allah." 'Aisha added: Ever since I heard that from Allah's Apostle I have determined not to miss Hajj. _- Sahih Bukhari, _Penalty of Hunting while on Pilgrimmage_, no. 84

_Narrated 'Abdullah bin 'Amr: A man came to the Prophet asking his permission to take part in Jihad. The Prophet asked him, "Are your parents alive?" He replied in the affirmative. The Prophet said to him, "Then perform jihad by serving them." _- Sahih Bukhari, _Jihad_, no. 248 & _Adab_, no. 3

_Narrated AbuSa'id al-Khudri: The Prophet (SAWS) said: The best jihad in the path of Allah is (to speak) a word of justice to an oppressive ruler._ - Sunan Abu Dawud, _Malahim_, no. 4330 & Sunan Al-Nasa'i, no. 4209.

_"the mujahid is he who strives against his self (nafs) for the sake of obeying Allah, and the muhajir is he who abandons evil deeds and sin."_ - Sahih Ibn Hibban, no. 4862​


Mr.Fitnah said:


> I have to assume that  this has to do with  the tense 16:110 being in past tense


Your assumption is incorrect. It is because Khan and his backers are liars.

_And whoever strives hard (jahada), strives for himself. Surely Allah is Self-sufficient, above creatures._ - 29:6​


Mr.Fitnah said:


> They have had ample opportunity to edit it if they though there an error.


That should give you an idea of how untrustworthy they are.


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## Kalam (Oct 25, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> Tafsir.com Tafsir Ibn Kathir
> Islam Question and Answer - Meanings of the word fitnah in the Qur&#8217;aan



Nope. Ibn Kathir was not a lexicographer, nor is the owner of "Islam-qa." Moreover, Khan implies that fitnah is *synonymous *with shirk and kufr. I want proof of this.


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## Mr.Fitnah (Oct 25, 2009)

Kalam said:


> Mr.Fitnah said:
> 
> 
> > Tafsir.com Tafsir Ibn Kathir
> ...


You want me to prove a claim you are making?

You have provided no evidence  to suggests tha Ibn Kathir nor the informations  from the website run by the late grand mufti of Saudi Arabia is not based on authentic Islamic scripture.

You are the one making the claim of the meaning being synonymous, shirk and kufr fall under the rubric of disorder, persecution temptation.


In the same way defying  and challenging Islam is considered mocking Islam.






I see you copy editd the hadith to distort its meaning..
Volume 4, Book 52, Number 43:
Narrated 'Aisha:

(That she said), "O Allah's Apostle! We consider Jihad as the best deed. Should we not fight in Allah's Cause?" He said, "The best Jihad (for women) is Hajj-Mabrur (i.e. Hajj which is done according to the Prophet's tradition and is accepted by Allah)."


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## Kalam (Oct 25, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> You have provided no evidence  to suggests tha Ibn Kathir nor the informations  from the website run by the late grand mufti of Saudi Arabia is not based on authentic Islamic scripture.


That would entail proving a negative. The burden of proof lies with you. You have not demonstrated that their definitions _are_ based on a proper understanding of the word or "authentic Islamic scripture."



Mr.Fitnah said:


> You are the one making the claim of the meaning being synonymous, shirk and kufr fall under the rubric of disorder, persecution temptation.


That is your opinion. Your author implies that Fitnah is synonymous with kufr and shirk; I didn't make that up:

_Fitnah (disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allah)_ - M. Muhsin Khan​
There is nothing inherent in the word that means or implies kufr or shirk. You have implicitly acknowledged that Khan is a liar by remaining silent in the face of the proof I provided, so why you continue to believe that his definition is trustworthy is beyond me. 



Mr.Fitnah said:


> In the same way defying  and challenging Islam is considered mocking Islam.


Defying and challenging Islam verbally carries no legal consequences for non-Muslims, nor does mocking it. Attacking it physically, encouraging others to do so, or supporting others in doing so carries legal consequences, as it should.



Mr.Fitnah said:


> I see you copy editd the hadith to distort its meaning..
> 
> (That she said), "O Allah's Apostle! We consider Jihad as the best deed. Should we not fight in Allah's Cause?" He said, "The best Jihad (for women) is Hajj-Mabrur (i.e. Hajj which is done according to the Prophet's tradition and is accepted by Allah)."




I use more than one translation to ensure accuracy and try to omit parenthetical text that does anything apart from improving grammatical clarity. Your translator is the one who attempted to alter the meaning; I presented the hadith exactly as it was reported. Thank you for admitting that you were incorrect about the meaning of jihad.


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## PoliticalChic (Oct 25, 2009)

Kalam said:


> Mr.Fitnah said:
> 
> 
> > In the same way defying  and challenging Islam is considered mocking Islam.
> ...


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## mal (Oct 25, 2009)

Such a Tolerant Religion...

All of the Homosexual Leftist Activists who Attack American Christians for being Intolerant while Excusing Islam, should Move to Iran and Live as "Out" as they do here, and then Report back on how that Worked out for them.



peace...


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## PoliticalChic (Oct 25, 2009)

tha malcontent said:


> Such a Tolerant Religion...
> 
> All of the Homosexual Leftist Activists who Attack American Christians for being Intolerant while Excusing Islam, should Move to Iran and Live as "Out" as they do here, and then Report back on how that Worked out for them.
> 
> ...



Many people deny international and domestic terrorism of Islam because they feel safer if they think that other people are mainly good, and behave rationally.  The idea that they are evil is genuinely frightening. And people tend to think that others are like they are. Many westerners tend to resist knowledge of Arabs and Muslims whom they have already romanticized, exoticized,  justified, etc. 
Politically correct westerners have another reason for not looking too closely at the realities of the Muslim world: fear that to do so might be seen as racist.


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## Mr.Fitnah (Oct 25, 2009)

The opinion of  the meaning of fitnah including kufr is  not held by Ibn Kathir singularly 

Ibn Faaris said: &#8220;Fa-ta-na is a sound root which indicates testing or trial.&#8221; (Maqaayees al-Lughah, 4/472). This is the basic meaning of the word fitnah in Arabic. 

Ibn al-Atheer said: &#8220;Fitnah: trial or test&#8230; The word is often used to describe tests in which something disliked is eliminated. Later it was also often used in the sense of sin, kufr (disbelief), fighting, burning, removing and diverting.&#8221; (al-Nihaayah, 3/410. Ibn Hajar said something similar in al-Fath, 13/3). 

Ibn al-A&#8217;raabi summed up the meanings of fitnah when he said: &#8220;Fitnah means testing, fitnah means trial, fitnah means wealth, fitnah means children, fitnah means kufr, fitnah means differences of opinion among people, fitnah means burning with fire.&#8221; (Lisaan al-&#8216;Arab by Ibn Manzoor). 

I  have remained  silent on nothing your proof is included within the bounds of  the proof I provide  that is more inclusive  which is in harmony with what is known of Mohammad.

Volume:9  Book :92 (Holding Fast to the Qur'an and Sunnah)Number :378	
Top
Narrated Said bin Al-Musaiyab: 

Abu Huraira said that Allah's Apostle said, "I have been sent with 'Jawami-al-Kalim ' (the shortest expression with the widest meaning) and have been made victorious with awe (cast in my enemy's hearts), and while I was sleeping, I saw that the keys of the treasures of the world were placed in my hand." Abu Huraira added: Allah's Apostle has gone, and you people are utilizing those treasures, or digging those treasures out." or said a similar sentence. 






Not everyone agrees with you.


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## Kalam (Oct 26, 2009)

Let's look into this.



PoliticalChic said:


> Punishment by death for apostasy from Islam is firmly rooted in the most holy Muslim texts -- both the Koran (verses such as 2:217 and 4:89)



_They ask thee about fighting in the sacred month. Say: fighting it is a grave (offense). And hindering from Allah's way and denying Him and the Sacred Mosque and turning its people out of it, are still graver with Allah; and persecution is graver with Allah; and persecution (fitna - persecution, trial, etc.) is graver than slaughter. And they will not cease fighting you until they turn you back from your religion, if they can. And whoever of you turns back from his religion, then he dies while an unbeliever -- these it is whose works go for nothing in this world and the Hereafter. And they are the companions of the Fire: therein they will abide. _- 2:217​
This ayah condemns those who attempt to proselytize Muslims and who prevent them from worshiping freely in the Masjid al-Haram. Moreover, it's made clear that the disbelievers being referenced are "fighting" Muslims with the intent of making them convert to another religion. Of those who abandon Islam, it is said that anything that they may accomplish is nullified in the sight of Allah (SWT) and that they'll receive their due punishment in the hereafter. No earthly punishment is prescribed, so the claim that this ayah provides justification for executing apostates is dishonest and inaccurate. The next ayah you cite proves my point rather than yours. Let's read it along with the ayah that immediately follows it:

_They long that you should disbelieve as they have disbelieved so that you might be on the same level; so take not from among them friends until they flee in Allahs way. Then if they turn back, seize them and kill them wherever you find them, and take no friend nor helper from among them, except those who join a people between whom and you there is an alliance, or who come to you, their hearts shrinking from fighting you or fighting their own people. And if Allah had pleased, He would have given them power over you, so that they would have fought you. *So if they withdraw from you and fight you not and offer you peace, then Allah allows you no way against them.*_ - 4:89-90​
The passage hardly requires an explanation. If the person in question "withdraws" from the Muslims (ie: becomes an apostate), attacking him is not permissible unless he takes up arms against Muslims. 



PoliticalChic said:


> and the hadith (i.e., collections of the putative words and deeds of the Muslim prophet Muhammad, as compiled by pious Muslim transmitters),



_Narrated Jabir: A bedouin came to the Prophet and said, "Please take my Pledge of allegiance for Islam." So the Prophet took from him the Pledge of allegiance for Islam. He came the next day with a fever and said to the Prophet "Cancel my pledge." But the Prophet refused and when the bedouin went away (from Madinah,) the Prophet said, "Madinah is like a pair of bellows: It expels its impurities and brightens and clears its good."_

 - Sahih Bukhari, _Ahkaam_ ("Judgements"), no. 323.​
The same hadith is reported in nos. 316 and 318 of that book as well as no. 107 of _Virtues of Madinah_ and no. 424 of _Holding Fast to the Quran and Sunnah.
_ 

More:
Is Apostasy a Capital Crime in Islam? - IslamOnline.net - Living Sharia'h



PoliticalChic said:


> as well as the sacred Islamic Law (the Shari'a).


Sharia is derived from the Qur'an and Ahadith. Law with no firm basis in scripture is not Sharia.



PoliticalChic said:


> For example, Muhammad is reported to have said "Kill him who changes his religion," in hadith collections of both Bukhari and Abu Dawud.


See the link above. 



PoliticalChic said:


> There is also a consensus by all four schools of Sunni Islamic jurisprudence (i.e., Maliki, Hanbali,  Hanafi, and Shafi'i),


This is untrue. The Shafi'i Grand Mufti, Ali Gomaa, does not believe that apostasy is a capital offense under Islam.

Ali Gomaa - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



PoliticalChic said:


> as well as Shi'ite jurists, that apostates from Islam must be put to death.


Nope. Grand Ayatollah Hossein-Ali Montazeri disagrees.

Hosein-Ali Montazeri - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



PoliticalChic said:


> Averroes (d. 1198), the renowned philosopher and scholar of the natural sciences, who was also an important Maliki jurist, provided this typical Muslim legal opinion on the punishment for apostasy


The Middle Ages were a period of particularly high intolerance in Islam. A legal opinion issued during that period was not necessarily reflective of the actual teachings of the religion.



PoliticalChic said:


> The contemporary (i.e., 1991) Al-Azhar (Cairo) Islamic Research Academy-endorsed Shafi'i manual of Islamic Law, 'Umdat al-Salik (pp. 595-96) states:


_Reliance of the Traveler_ is not contemporary; it was written by Ahmad ibn Naqib al-Misri (d. 1367 CE.) You're referring to the 1990 translation of that work by Shaykh Nuh Ha Mim Keller. The Shafi'i position on apostasy was articulated by Grand Mufti Ali Gomaa; see above. 

You'll forgive me for not addressing the rest of the post, as it deals with individuals whose opinions hold no real weight in Islam.

Wa 'alaykum as-salam.


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## Douger (Oct 26, 2009)

Islam is Evil !
Load your guns, sharpen your knives and grab a bigazz bag of rocks and head home to take car of bidness.
The Kriztian way 
Bible Babble - The Laws of the Bible


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## Mr.Fitnah (Oct 26, 2009)

4:76. 
Those who believe, fight in the Cause of Allâh, and those who disbelieve, fight in the cause of Tâghût (Satan, etc.).[] So fight you against the friends of Shaitân (Satan); Ever feeble indeed is the plot of Shaitân (Satan). 
4:77. 
Have you not seen those who were told to hold back their hands (from fighting) and perform As-Salât (Iqâmat*as*Salât), and give Zakât, but when the fighting was ordained for them, behold! a section of them fear men as they fear Allâh or even more. They say: "Our Lord! Why have you ordained for us fighting? Would that you had granted us respite for a short period?" Say: "Short is the enjoyment of this world. The Hereafter is (far) better for him who fears Allâh, and you shall not be dealt with unjustly even equal to the Fatilâ(a scalish thread in the long slit of a date*stone). 

4.88. Then what is the matter with you that you are divided into two parties about the hypocrites? Allâh has cast them back (to disbelief) because of what they have earned. Do you want to guide him whom Allâh has made to go astray? And he whom Allâh has made to go astray, you will never find for him any way (of guidance).

4.89. They wish that you reject Faith, as they have rejected (Faith), and thus that you all become equal (like one another). So take not Auliyâ' (protectors or friends) from them, till they emigrate in the Way of Allâh (to Muhammad ). But if they turn back (from Islâm), take (hold) of them and kill them wherever you find them, and take neither Auliyâ' (protectors or friends) nor helpers from them.


----------



## PoliticalChic (Oct 26, 2009)

Kalam said:


> Let's look into this.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Ah, my friend, methinks thou has become too unctious.

Please tell me what fate will befall a Muslim living in a Muslim county who professes a change in religion, say, to Christianity.

[youtube]
<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/LtrMjtRvLeI&hl=en&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/LtrMjtRvLeI&hl=en&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>[/youtube]


----------



## mal (Oct 26, 2009)

PoliticalChic said:


> *Please tell me what fate will befall a Muslim living in a Muslim county who professes a change in religion, say, to Christianity.*
> 
> [youtube]
> <object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/LtrMjtRvLeI&hl=en&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/LtrMjtRvLeI&hl=en&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>[/youtube]





That's a Question that not only the Mooooooslims here Need to Answer, but also the Christian Bashing, Deviant Left that Excuses the Religion of Peace and Love.



peace...


----------



## Kalam (Oct 26, 2009)

PoliticalChic said:


> Please tell me what fate will befall a Muslim living in a Muslim county who professes a change in religion, say, to Christianity.



I'm sorry; this doesn't address any of the points I made in my previous post. Is your assertion that the laws of self-styled "Muslim" countries are necessarily reflective of the teachings of Islam?


----------



## Mr.Fitnah (Oct 26, 2009)

Kalam said:


> PoliticalChic said:
> 
> 
> > Please tell me what fate will befall a Muslim living in a Muslim county who professes a change in religion, say, to Christianity.
> ...



In other words you are posting under the  new ownership of Political Chic.


----------



## Kalam (Oct 26, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> Kalam said:
> 
> 
> > PoliticalChic said:
> ...


If you're feeling sore from the beatings, feel free to tag her in for a while. That would be good for everyone involved; she's able to present her anti-Islamic delirium in a more agreeable manner.


----------



## Mr.Fitnah (Oct 26, 2009)

Thanks ,Im good.

Many muslims like to say "Islam forbids the killing of innocent people", I'm asking for someone to prove unequivocally using Islamic scripture that none muslims are innocent.


----------



## Fatality (Oct 26, 2009)

Douger said:


> Islam is Evil !
> Load your guns, sharpen your knives and grab a bigazz bag of rocks and head home to take car of bidness.
> The Kriztian way
> Bible Babble - The Laws of the Bible



wut should we do wit them stupid kriztianz?


----------



## Intense (Oct 27, 2009)

Kalam said:


> PoliticalChic said:
> 
> 
> > Please tell me what fate will befall a Muslim living in a Muslim county who professes a change in religion, say, to Christianity.
> ...



Sorry Kalam, But your argument is a total failure. What you fail to address with your propaganda is the primary audience of the so called believers of Islam. After You have enlightened those that profess to follow what you claim, and the Terrorism, realized for what it is, Evil, then come and explain to Us. 

I'll share My faith with you too. You appear to have so many misunderstandings to clear up among your own people, I am so surprised that you have any time to post here at all. I mean, you are so clear and all about misdirection and smoke screens, Right???? 

Let me help you with a new and novel approach.  Remember now, "People Are Not Property."  Just keep repeating that with your prayers.  You have Millions of Muslims to Correct now. Clean your own house. 

 Luke 10:27 And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.

Mark 12:30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.   

Matthew 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.


----------



## Intense (Oct 27, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> Thanks ,Im good.
> 
> Many muslims like to say "Islam forbids the killing of innocent people", I'm asking for someone to prove unequivocally using Islamic scripture that none muslims are innocent.



What is Original Sin and what is it's context here?


----------



## Mr.Fitnah (Nov 2, 2009)

Many muslims like to say "Islam forbids the killing of innocent people", 
I'm asking for someone to prove unequivocally using Islamic scripture that none muslims are innocent.


----------



## Liability (Nov 3, 2009)

Good grief.

I am not a fan of Islam.  But I have nothing against Muslims (not counting the Islamofascist pigdogs of course, who deserve to roast).

Some people have a special zeal for pissing all over the religious beliefs of ANYone who believes in God in ANY way, form, manner or shape.  Such narrow minded bigots.

Who the FUCK cares if you believe in God or DON'T believe in God?

I'd have no problem with ANY Muslim or any person of any other religion provided they have the decency to refrain from attempting to impose their religion on me or others.

Any problem with TALKING about it?  Nope.  Go right ahead.  Just don't act out of I walk away when you do that preaching thang.


----------



## Intense (Nov 3, 2009)

Liability said:


> Good grief.
> 
> I am not a fan of Islam.  But I have nothing against Muslims (not counting the Islamofascist pigdogs of course, who deserve to roast).
> 
> ...



That's the point. They can't walk away. The mandate is Global Domination and Death to that which offends or refuses to follow. Until Islam renounces these Beliefs, Islam will remain an Enemy to the Civilized World. They still own Slaves, Man.


----------



## Liability (Nov 3, 2009)

Intense said:


> Liability said:
> 
> 
> > Good grief.
> ...



"They?"

I am no fan of Islam.  But overgeneralizations are counterproductive to actual communication!


----------



## Mr.Fitnah (Nov 3, 2009)

Liability said:


> Good grief.
> 
> I am not a fan of Islam.  But I have nothing against Muslims (not counting the Islamofascist pigdogs of course, who deserve to roast).
> 
> ...


How do you feel about religions  that require all people be subjugated under their religious tenants? 
Islam Question and Answer - Judging by that which Allaah has revealed
Islam Question and Answer - Should he turn to the human rights organizations to get his rights?
Islam Question and Answer - The kufr of one who rules according to other than what Allaah revealed

Allaah has commanded us to refer matters to His judgement and to establish Shareeah, and He has forbidden us to rule with anything else, as is clear from a number of aayaat in the Quraan, such as the aayaat in Soorat al-Maaidah (5) which discuss ruling according to what Allaah has revealed, and mention the following topics:

The command to rule according to what Allaah has revealed: And so judge between them by what Allaah has revealed . . . [aayah 49]

Warning against ruling by other than what Allaah has revealed: . . . and follow not their vain desires . . . [aayah 49]

Warning against compromising on any detail of Shareeah, no matter how small: . . . but beware of them lest they turn you far away from some of that which Allaah has sent down to you . . . [aayah 49]

Forbidding seeking the ruling of jaahiliyyah, as is expressed in the rhetorical question Do they then seek the judgement of (the Days of) Ignorance? [aayah 50]

The statement that nobody is better than Allaah to judge: . . . and who is better in judgement than Allaah for a people who have firm Faith? [aayah 50]

The statement that whoever does not judge according to what Allaah revealed is a kaafir, a zaalim (oppressor or wrongdoer) and a faasiq (sinner), as Allaah says: . . . And whoever does not judge by what Allaah has revealed, such are the kaafiroon. [aayah 44]; . . . And whoever does not judge by that which Allaah has revealed, such are the zaalimoon (polytheists and wrongdoers) [aayah 45]; . . . And whoever does not judge by what Allaah has revealed (then) such (people) are the faasiqoon (rebellious or disobedient). [aayah 47].

The statement that it is obligatory for the Muslims to judge according to what Allaah has revealed, even if those who seek their judgement are not Muslim, as Allaah says: . . . And if you judge, judge with justice between them. . . [aayah 42]


----------



## Liability (Nov 3, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> Liability said:
> 
> 
> > Good grief.
> ...



How do I "feel" about that?

I feel like it violates one of the very basic and clearly stated pre-conditions of what I said earlier.

They need to leave me the fuck alone.  I will be more than happy to do the same with regard to them.

If they cannot leave me (meaning me myself and my family and all of my fellow non Muslim countrymen and allies) the fuck OUT of their behavior, then I feel nothing but animosity toward them and I feel quite intolerant of them and I feel not at all inclined to accept any of what they say or do or "require."


----------



## Intense (Nov 3, 2009)

Liability said:


> Mr.Fitnah said:
> 
> 
> > Liability said:
> ...



That is the Whole Point. They Will Not leave the Rest of Us Alone. I have no Criticism of the Words One uses when They Pray, or by What Name They call God. The Predators set the Agenda, and All are subject to Their Tyranny, both Muslims and Non Muslims.


----------



## Mr.Fitnah (Nov 3, 2009)

Yeah, they  are not going to leave you alone, sorry.


----------



## Liability (Nov 3, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> Yeah, they  are not going to leave you alone, sorry.



Oh, I t'ink you misunderstood me.

For quite a long time, most Muslims HAVE indeed left me the fuck alone and left most of us the fuck alone.

This is not to say that during a great portion of the same time period SOME of them have not been actively seeking to be at war with us.  But I'm not talking about the Islamofucktards.

I am referring to the majority of Muslims who (like most of the rest of mankind) actually rather prefer to be left alone and just go about the doings of their own daily lives.

I mean, look.  SOME Christians have stepped over the bounds, too.  I don't think the minority defines the majority.

If there are Muslims (and I believe there are -- a majority in my estimation) who are perfectly content leaving everyone else alone provided we leave THEM alone, then I have no issue with them.

As to all the others who find it somehow necessary to fuck with us, my view is quite different.  If it's "jihad" they think they want, then it's jihad they should fucking get.  They SHOULD be very much on the receiving end, however.  Until they fully submit.  Fuck.  No jizyah payment even required.


----------



## Mr.Fitnah (Nov 3, 2009)

This is in accordance to Islam and sharia,  as long as some muslims are fucking with people   not all muslims are required to fuck with people .

``Let there be a group of you who call to good, commanding the right and forbidding the wrong, for those are the successful'' (Koran 3:104).


----------



## Kalam (Nov 3, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> This is in accordance to Islam and sharia,  as long as some muslims are fucking with people   not all muslims are required to fuck with people .



What nonsense. 

As for your references to IslamQA, you may want to refer to a more reliable and mainstream source. No people other than the most credulous fools are going to belief that Wahhabism is representative of actual Islam.

Here:
IslamOnline.net- Islamic News, Shari'ah, Society, Family, Culture, Science, Youth, and Health
IslamonLine.net

Note that Qaradawi is considered to be a conservative. I'm aware of your proclivity for checking traffic ratings, so go ahead and compare both sites.


----------



## Kalam (Nov 3, 2009)

Liability said:


> Mr.Fitnah said:
> 
> 
> > Yeah, they  are not going to leave you alone, sorry.
> ...



Don't bother. The OP has conditioned himself to the extent that he's completely immune to rationality.


----------



## Kalam (Nov 3, 2009)

I apologize for not noticing this earlier!



Intense said:


> Sorry Kalam, But your argument is a total failure.


I will take this judgment of yours into consideration along with your inability to demonstrate _why_ my argument is a "total failure." 



Intense said:


> What you fail to address with your propaganda


I'm sorry; sound arguments substantiated with clear scriptural references can hardly be called propagandistic. 



Intense said:


> is the primary audience of the so called believers of Islam. After You have enlightened those that profess to follow what you claim, and the Terrorism, realized for what it is, Evil, then come and explain to Us.


I'll address the misguided among my fellow believers when my knowledge of Arabic, my familiarity with the Sunni hadith collections, and my familiarity with the common interpretations of fiqh have all been nearly perfected. Until then, the arguments of the aspirant orientalists of USMB will make for decent target practice. 



Intense said:


> I'll share My faith with you too.


That won't be necessary. As somebody who has lived his life in a country that is mostly Christian, I've familiarized myself enough with Christianity to reject it decidedly. 



Intense said:


> Remember now, "People Are Not Property."


I don't recall saying anything to the opposite effect.



Intense said:


> Clean your own house.


You expect me to allow lies posted about my religion to remain uncorrected when addressing them is well within my means. That doesn't make a great deal of sense, now, does it?



Intense said:


> Luke 10:27 And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.



_And they entered into a covenant to seek the LORD God of their fathers with all their heart and with all their soul; That whosoever would not seek the LORD God of Israel should be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. And they sware unto the LORD with a loud voice, and with shouting, and with trumpets, and with cornets. And all Judah rejoiced at the oath: for they had sworn with all their heart, and sought him with their whole desire; and he was found of them: and the LORD gave them rest round about._ - 2 Chronicles 15:12-15 (KJV)


----------



## Mr.Fitnah (Nov 3, 2009)

Kalam said:


> I'll address the misguided among my fellow believers when my knowledge of Arabic, my familiarity with the Sunni hadith collections, and my familiarity with the common interpretations of fiqh have all been nearly perfected. Until then, the arguments of the aspirant orientalists of USMB will make for decent target practice.



Yes  it is wise for you  to get used to  total failure in the  relative privacy and anonymity of internet chat forum, before you  fail out in public in a grandiose way.
Unless of course you  figure out  what the hell Islam  is all about along the way,
then you  will  either reject Islam  or  become a martyr .


----------



## Kalam (Nov 3, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> Yes  it is wise for you  to get used to  total failure in the  relative privacy and anonymity of internet chat forum, before you  fail out in public in a grandiose way.


I've been patiently waiting for you to begin your utter humiliation of me since you began posting here. 



Mr.Fitnah said:


> Unless of course you  figure out  what the hell Islam  is all about along the way,
> then you  will  either reject Islam  or  become a martyr .


It's cute that you think you have a better idea of "what Islam is" than I do. Rest assured, my views are not unknown to those who interact with me, including some very conservative Muslims who have yet to kill me or call me an unbeliever.


----------



## Mr.Fitnah (Nov 3, 2009)

Kalam said:


> Mr.Fitnah said:
> 
> 
> > Yes  it is wise for you  to get used to  total failure in the  relative privacy and anonymity of internet chat forum, before you  fail out in public in a grandiose way.
> ...


Wrong thread ,
this is a thread for someone to prove unequivocal  none Muslims are innocent according to Islamic scripture.
You have be unable to get  in the neighborhood ,let alone the street with your "logical bombs of rationality "
Wrong board.
You'll be wanting 
Bondage | BDSM Forums | Fetish, Bondage, and BDSM Message Boards


----------



## Intense (Nov 3, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> Kalam said:
> 
> 
> > I'll address the misguided among my fellow believers when my knowledge of Arabic, my familiarity with the Sunni hadith collections, and my familiarity with the common interpretations of fiqh have all been nearly perfected. Until then, the arguments of the aspirant orientalists of USMB will make for decent target practice.
> ...



If Kalam is speaking Honestly, He is already a Martyr. If not He is Accountable to God.


----------



## Intense (Nov 3, 2009)

Kalam said:


> I apologize for not noticing this earlier!
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Admiral Effort. We're You speaking for Islam, as a authority of the Church, the meaning would be significant. We know this to not be the case though Kalam. I renounce Murder in God's Name, by it by Jew, Christian, or Muslim. I am not a Fundamentalist Kalam, and Will not Kill without Justification, no matter Who would require it of Me. You Quote 2 Chronicles 15:12-15, disarmed, because I Question the Source, be it the hand of the Man that Translated it, or originally wrote it, or the intentions of the One that originally spoke it. Scripture does remind Us to Seek God First in All Things, To seek Him In Sincerity of Heart,  to Seek Him through Conscience. If We ever find Harmony in this, We will not be Enemies, but both Earnestly part of the solution. Putting God Above All Else, does Place Him Above the Written Word, which is always in danger of being corrupted. I Respect Scripture, Yet I will choose Conscience having to act in conflict, further study, given the choice. Confirmation through something being confirmed elsewhere is helpful. There are snares in the written word by design, that I'm sure you are aware of. There are Multiple Applications, there is Relevance, there is Context.

Islam has adopted tome of the Traditions and Belief's from Judaism. I find Fault with not being able to be a Faithful witness in Court, testifying for a Non Believer, against a Believer, knowing that the Believer is at Fault. You both share that Hypocrisy. God has decreed Honest impartial Testimony, not a Kangaroo Court. We have also abandoned Slavery, I recommend You consider doing the same. We recognize Freedom of Religion to be an Unalienable Right, Conversion is a Right and is not punishable by death in a Free Society.


----------



## Kalam (Nov 3, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> Kalam said:
> 
> 
> > Mr.Fitnah said:
> ...



No thank you, but I appreciate that you went searching through your internet bookmarks for my sake.


----------



## Mr.Fitnah (Nov 3, 2009)

Many muslims like to say " Islam forbids the killing of innocent people"
Please provide Islamic scripture to prove unequivocally non muslims are innocent.


----------



## mal (Nov 3, 2009)

Noor Faleh Almaleki Dies After Being Hit by Car Allegedly Driven by DAd

^Another Quality Example of the Tolerance and Love that is Islam.



peace...


----------



## mal (Nov 3, 2009)

His Daughter OBVIOUSLY wasn't "Innocent".



peace...


----------



## Mr.Fitnah (Nov 3, 2009)

"Kalam" you can learn  every language on earth  and study  every scrape of Islamic scripture .
In the final analysis  you  will find no daylight between  what I say Islam is, and what Islams "prophet" says Islam is.


----------



## Kalam (Nov 3, 2009)

Intense said:


> Admiral Effort. We're You speaking for Islam, as a authority of the Church, the meaning would be significant. We know this to not be the case though Kalam.


Sorry; I'm confused. What isn't the case?



Intense said:


> I renounce Murder in God's Name, by it by Jew, Christian, or Muslim. I am not a Fundamentalist Kalam, and Will not Kill without Justification, no matter Who would require it of Me.


That's reassuring, I guess. I'm not sure what the point of mentioning this was, though. Is it your contention that Islam promotes murder and killing without justification? 



Intense said:


> You Quote 2 Chronicles 15:12-15, disarmed, because I Question the Source, be it the hand of the Man that Translated it, or originally wrote it, or the intentions of the One that originally spoke it. Scripture does remind Us to Seek God First in All Things, To seek Him In Sincerity of Heart,  to Seek Him through Conscience. If We ever find Harmony in this, We will not be Enemies, but both Earnestly part of the solution. Putting God Above All Else, does Place Him Above the Written Word, which is always in danger of being corrupted. I Respect Scripture, Yet I will choose Conscience having to act in conflict, further study, given the choice. Confirmation through something being confirmed elsewhere is helpful. There are snares in the written word by design, that I'm sure you are aware of. There are Multiple Applications, there is Relevance, there is Context.


There certainly are, much to the chagrin of feeble discussants such as Mr. F who rely largely on quote-mining. My intention was to illustrate the fact that it is just as easy, if not easier, to make the Bible seem like an abhorrent call for death to unbelievers as it is to do so with the sublime Qur'an. 



Intense said:


> Islam has adopted tome of the Traditions and Belief's from Judaism. I find Fault with not being able to be a Faithful witness in Court, testifying for a Non Believer, against a Believer, knowing that the Believer is at Fault. You both share that Hypocrisy.


The Qur'an does not comment on the permissibility of the testimony of non-Muslims, so whether or not such testimony is acceptable is left to our discretion. The Hanafi and Hanbali jurisprudential interpretations accept the testimony of non-Muslims (Hanbali with stipulations.) I see nothing wrong with allowing it as long as the individuals are trustworthy.



Intense said:


> God has decreed Honest impartial Testimony, not a Kangaroo Court. We have also abandoned Slavery, I recommend You consider doing the same.


Slavery is not permissible; it is clear from the words of the Qur'an that a scheme was established by Islam to gradually lead to the abolition of slavery.

_It is not righteousness that you turn your faces towards the East and the West, but righteous is the one who believes in Allah, and the Last Day, and the angels and the Book and the prophets, and gives away wealth out of love for Him to the near of kin and the orphans and the needy and the wayfarer and to those who ask and to set slaves free and keeps up prayer and pays the poor-rate; and the performers of their promise when they make a promise, and the patient in distress and affliction and in the time of conflict. These are they who are truthful; and these are they who keep their duty._ - 2:177​
_And let those who cannot find a match keep chaste, until Allah makes them free from want out of His grace. And those of your slaves who ask for a writing (of freedom), give them the writing, if you know any good in them, and give them of the wealth of Allah which He has given you. And compel not your slave-girls to prostitution when they desire to keep chaste, in order to seek the frail goods of this worlds life. And whoever compels them, then surely after their compulsion Allah is Forgiving, Merciful._ - 24:33​


Intense said:


> We recognize Freedom of Religion to be an Unalienable Right, Conversion is a Right and is not punishable by death in a Free Society.



_There is no compulsion in religion -- the right way is clearly distinct from error. So whoever disbelieves in the devil and believes in Allah, he indeed lays hold on the firmest handle which shall never break. And Allah is Hearing, Knowing._ - 2:256

_Narrated Jabir: A bedouin came to the Prophet and said, "Please take my Pledge of allegiance for Islam." So the Prophet took from him the Pledge of allegiance for Islam. He came the next day with a fever and said to the Prophet "Cancel my pledge." But the Prophet refused and when the bedouin went away (from Medina), the Prophet said, "Medina is like a pair of bellows: It expels its impurities and brightens and clears its good."_

- Sahih Bukhari, Ahkaam ("Judgments"), no. 323​


----------



## Kalam (Nov 3, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> "Kalam" you can learn  every language on earth  and study  every scrape of Islamic scripture .
> In the final analysis  you  will find no daylight between  what I say Islam is, and what Islams "prophet" says Islam is.



I've already determined that you're incorrect based on what I do know, which I daresay is more than you if we're strictly speaking in terms of scripture.


----------



## Kalam (Nov 3, 2009)

tha malcontent said:


> Noor Faleh Almaleki Dies After Being Hit by Car Allegedly Driven by DAd
> 
> ^Another Quality Example of the Tolerance and Love that is Islam.
> 
> ...





tha malcontent said:


> His Daughter OBVIOUSLY wasn't "Innocent".
> 
> 
> 
> peace...


What makes you so sure that this man's actions were valid in Islam and that his daughter was deserving of death according to scripture? As they say, put up or shut up. I'll go ahead and bet ten dollars that you fail to provide scripture or that Fitnah attempts to do so for you.



...&#1587;&#1604;&#1575;&#1605;


----------



## Mr.Fitnah (Nov 3, 2009)

Kalam said:


> Mr.Fitnah said:
> 
> 
> > "Kalam" you can learn  every language on earth  and study  every scrape of Islamic scripture .
> ...





> I'll address the misguided among my fellow believers when my knowledge of Arabic, my familiarity with the Sunni hadith collections, and my familiarity with the common interpretations of fiqh have all been nearly perfected. Until then, the arguments of the aspirant orientalists of USMB will make for decent target practice.



You are putting the cart before the horse.
Study it all, the final step will be you have to be honest about  what it all means.
Then  you will find me looking back at you  in the mirror.


----------



## Kalam (Nov 3, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> Kalam said:
> 
> 
> > Mr.Fitnah said:
> ...



TBH, my studies have lead me almost exclusively in the opposite direction. I was not an observant or religious person when I began truly studying Islam some time ago; I began with few preconceptions and submitted myself to the clear word of Allah (SWT) as recorded in the Qur'an. If I had found that the teachings of Islam were identical to what you seem to think they are, I would probably no longer be a Muslim today.


----------



## Intense (Nov 3, 2009)

Kalam said:


> Intense said:
> 
> 
> > Admiral Effort. We're You speaking for Islam, as a authority of the Church, the meaning would be significant. We know this to not be the case though Kalam.
> ...



Kalam: Sorry; I'm confused. What isn't the case?

You speak for Yourself, Not All of Islam.


Kalam:That's reassuring, I guess. I'm not sure what the point of mentioning this was, though. Is it your contention that Islam promotes murder and killing without justification? 

Justification, meaning Self Defense, Just Cause, No Alternative. Defensive Action.


Kalam: There certainly are, much to the chagrin of feeble discussants such as Mr. F who rely largely on quote-mining. My intention was to illustrate the fact that it is just as easy, if not easier, to make the Bible seem like an abhorrent call for death to unbelievers as it is to do so with the sublime Qur'an. 

Jews and Christians No Longer Kill People because of The Bible or Religion. Islam does. Google the History of Terrorism in India. If the Bible told Me to Kill You because Of Your Faith, I would Choose My Faith Through Conscience and Refuse the Bible. I would Question It's Validity on the Matter.  There are Verses that would Nullify the Charge. The Bible, The Koran are both Spiritual Swords, Unique to It's Possessor. Time teaches Us all that Kalam.
One of the dangers in Fundamentalism of either sort is getting caught up in such a snare, worse is leading or teaching others to Follow in the mis direction.


Kalam: I see nothing wrong with allowing it as long as the individuals are trustworthy.

From The Medina Charter, maybe Just a matter of Interpretation or Circumstance.

(14) A believer shall not slay a believer for the sake of an unbeliever, nor shall he aid an unbeliever against a believer. 

(15) Gods protection is one, the least of them may give protection to a stranger on their behalf. Believers are friends one to the other to the exclusion of outsiders. 

"Constitution" of Medina (Dustur al-Madinah)


Kalam: Slavery is not permissible; it is clear from the words of the Qur'an that a scheme was established by Islam to gradually lead to the abolition of slavery.

So No Muslims openly own Slaves today? If so, I'm really glad to hear that. If not so, sooner rather than later is my advice.



Kalam: There is no compulsion in religion -- the right way is clearly distinct from error. So whoever disbelieves in the devil and believes in Allah, he indeed lays hold on the firmest handle which shall never break. And Allah is Hearing, Knowing. - 2:256

The Killing needs to stop. Asa hard as the rejection is, you get over it.


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## Mr.Fitnah (Nov 3, 2009)

I began my study of Islam to understand how Islam had been "hijacked and twisted" like I heard on TV  and read in the media after 9/11.
I waited  and waited for the details, the details never  came.
So I sought out the details for myself.
I now know, 
they never are coming.


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## Kalam (Nov 3, 2009)

Intense said:


> You speak for Yourself, Not All of Islam.


No living man or woman can speak for all of Islam. I defend Islam using Islam as it's presented in the Qur'an and legitimate ahadith. 



Intense said:


> Justification, meaning Self Defense, Just Cause, No Alternative. Defensive Action.


Coming to the defense of others and ending persecution are just causes for warfare and jihad bil sayf if those goals cannot be accomplished peaceably. Wouldn't you agree?



Intense said:


> Jews and Christians No Longer Kill People because of The Bible or Religion.


While largely true, your statement has some very serious exceptions. 



Intense said:


> Islam does. Google the History of Terrorism in India. If the Bible told Me to Kill You because Of Your Faith, I would Choose My Faith Through Conscience and Refuse the Bible. I would Question It's Validity on the Matter.  There are Verses that would Nullify the Charge. The Bible, The Koran are both Spiritual Swords, Unique to It's Possessor. Time teaches Us all that Kalam.


A Muslim must acknowledge the legitimacy of the entire Qur'an as the unaltered word of Allah (SWT.) Many Christians rightfully doubt the legitimacy of parts of the Bible. That is the difference.



Intense said:


> One of the dangers in Fundamentalism of either sort is getting caught up in such a snare, worse is leading or teaching others to Follow in the mis direction.


As I said, there is no ignoring the Qur'an. If you disagree with what it says, you should not consider youself a Muslim. There are correct interpretations that are being adopted by an increasing number of people, and incorrects interpretations that are clung to by a significant number of others. Hope for your and my sake that the correct interpretation prevails. 



Intense said:


> From The Medina Charter, maybe Just a matter of Interpretation or Circumstance.


It should be noted that the charter raises the loyal non-Muslims of Madinah, the Jewish tribes, to the level of true believers; "they are one ummah." The charter does not refer to testimony or judicial proceedings other than mentioning that matters requiring judgment are to be referred to the Messenger (SAWS.)



Intense said:


> So No Muslims openly own Slaves today? If so, I'm really glad to hear that. If not so, sooner rather than later is my advice.


None are true believers and none do so with the backing of the Qur'an or Islam. 



Intense said:


> The Killing needs to stop. Asa hard as the rejection is, you get over it.


I do not nor have I ever advocated death as a punishment for apostasy.


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## Mr.Fitnah (Nov 3, 2009)

Kalam said:


> No living man or woman can speak for all of Islam. I defend Islam using Islam as it's presented in the Qur'an and legitimate ahadith.
> .


And what makes you  the judge of legitimate hadith?
It must be in harmony with  your grotesque "interpretation" of the Quran
throwing  the rest of scripture under the camel.

Kind of transparent.

*You are free to understand Islam as you  wish, the problem is, so many "misunderstand" Islam in exactly  the same way, it kind of makes you look a little , forgive me ,crazy or full of shit.*


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## Kalam (Nov 3, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> And what makes you  the judge of legitimate hadith?
> It must be in harmony with  your grotesque "interpretation" of the Quran
> throwing  the rest of scripture under the camel.
> 
> Kind of transparent.


I'll accept most ahadith from the 6 major Sunni collections unless it can be demonstrated that a particular hadith, such as the hadith concerning the age of Aishah, is inaccurate. To call an interpretation that is based wholly on the words of the Qur'an and common rationality "grotesque"... well, that's just ridiculous. 



Mr.Fitnah said:


> You are free to understand Islam as you  wish, the problem is, so many "misunderstand" Islam in exactly  the same way, it kind of makes you look a little , forgive me ,crazy or full of shit.


You are wrongfully attempting to give people the impression that most Muslims are Wahhabis. Browse the fatawa and articles on Islamonline and you'll find that even "conservatives" in the Islamic community tend to agree with many of the interpretations I've put forth here.


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## Mr.Fitnah (Nov 3, 2009)

Kalam said:


> Mr.Fitnah said:
> 
> 
> > And what makes you  the judge of legitimate hadith?
> ...




Yeah   we can tell that by  how you continually link to  it  as proof the Ibn Kathirs  tafsir is wholly unreliable and how you use it  to explain in full detail  for  the meaning of fitnah,

mischief   and proof that non believers are innocent. 

If your interpretation is so widely accepted,  there must be hundreds , nah thousands of fatwas that state Ibn Kathir is a heritic whos tasfir should be avoided .

I hate to appeal to number   or popularity  but  since you brought it up


> islam-qa.com
> Islam Q and A
> 
> About Islam Q and A (islam-qa.com): Offers insight into Muslim belief and practice through questions, with answers supervised by Shaykh Muhammad Saalih al-Munajjid.
> ...





> mutazila.com
> Mutazila.com
> 
> 9,226,593
> ...


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## Mr.Fitnah (Nov 3, 2009)

Heres an Avy  for you to use if you  like it.


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## Kalam (Nov 3, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> Yeah   we can tell that by  how you continually link to  it  as proof the Ibn Kathirs  tafsir is wholly unreliable and how you use it  to explain in full detail  for  the meaning of fitnah,
> 
> mischief   and proof that non believers are innocent.
> 
> If your interpretation is so widely accepted,  there must be hundreds , nah thousands of fatwas that state Ibn Kathir is a heritic whos tasfir should be avoided.


I don't believe that Ibn Kathir was a heretic. He was, however, a product of his time, which was a period of particularly high intolerance and violence. Keep in mind that he was born not long after the last of nine Crusades had been fought; inter-religious tension was at its height. Most influential Muslims won't openly criticize his tafsir, but the fact that many tacitly disapprove of it is evidenced by the numerous interpretations they've put forth that contradict the more violent ones in the Tafsir Ibn Kathir.



Mr.Fitnah said:


> I hate to appeal to number   or popularity  but  since you brought it up


I didn't mean to suggest that Mutazila.com was more popular than IslamQA; the former is simply a collection of articles that I found interesting. My assertion was that IslamOnline is more popular than IslamQA. 



> islamonline.net - Site Info from Alexa
> 
> About Islam Online.net (islamonline.net): The first interactive portal offering an in-depth look at Islam, Muslim societies, and the world through Muslim eyes, featuring information on current events and discovering Islam. IslamOnline.net is an independent and balanced media outlet.
> 
> ...


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## Kalam (Nov 3, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> Heres an Avy  for you to use if you  like it.








Thanks


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## Mr.Fitnah (Nov 3, 2009)

Sayed Qutb(1906-1966) was a prominent and influential Muslim intellectual and writer. He wrote many books about Islam and its distinctive features as a comprehensive way of life. Among his most important works is his exegesis of the Qur'an In the Shade of the Qur'an, which was widely welcomed among Muslims and established itself as one of the best references in Qur'an exegesis. 

I found in the shade of the Quran a dazzling piece or insightful prose  that  held intellectual force and a pounding inspiration for believers His tafsir is the finest example of modern tafseer in my opinion
What was your opinion?


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## Kalam (Nov 4, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> Sayed Qutb(1906-1966) was a prominent and influential Muslim intellectual and writer. He wrote many books about Islam and its distinctive features as a comprehensive way of life. Among his most important works is his exegesis of the Qur'an In the Shade of the Qur'an, which was widely welcomed among Muslims and established itself as one of the best references in Qur'an exegesis.
> 
> I found in the shade of the Quran a dazzling piece or insightful prose  that  held intellectual force and a pounding inspiration for believers His tafsir is the finest example of modern tafseer in my opinion
> What was your opinion?



Qutb? He advocated aggressive jihad as a means of removing all oppressive governments so that "no compulsion in religion" could truly be achieved and people could choose to accept or reject Islam freely. So the ends he sought to achieve were noble in a way, but the means he advocated (aggressive forms of warfare) were flawed. Plus, Qutb was too anti-Semitic and misogynistic for my liking. The latter flaw can probably be attributed to the fact that he never married or had a successful relationship with a woman.

_Ma'alim fi-l-Tariq_, "_Milestones_", is a short and decent synopsis of his opinions. I have a copy of it somewhere on my bookshelf. 

Milestones, Seyyid Qutb, Book - Barnes & Noble


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## Mr.Fitnah (Nov 4, 2009)

I donated my copy to the library,
That is an interesting take on Qutb you have there .
Real passive aggressive psychobabble 
Im sure  Islam online.net doesn't know that  much about Qutb,
 an just put his stuff up  there  to mislead people like me.


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## Mr.Fitnah (Nov 4, 2009)

Name	
A    - 
Profession	 student
Question	 Assalam Alaikum, 
Could you please name some books on Tafseer and Sunnah, written in English. 
May Allah reward you for your great service. Ameen 
Jazakum Allah Khair 
Answer	 I advice you to focus firstly on the Quran. The best tafseer in English are: Maududi's tafseer Tafheem Al-Quran, Muhammad Asad's tafseer The Glorious Meanings of the Quran, Abdullah Yusuf translation and the translation of Ibn Kathirs tafseer. When you progress in your study of the Quran then I will let you know which books to study in Hadith.

IslamonLine.net

Im sure that is a typo.


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## Kalam (Nov 4, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> Name
> A    -
> Profession	 student
> Question	 Assalam Alaikum,
> ...



No, I'm not surprised. Opinions vary slightly depending on which scholar answers the question. They even quote some of al-Munajjid's less controversial postings. Plus, there is more to Ibn Kathir's tafsir than the calls for violence; much of it attempts to explain passages of the Qur'an using ahadith, and it can be useful for this reason. Read what they write about jihad, pluralism, and the like and you'll see the tacit disapproval that I described.


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## JW Frogen (Nov 4, 2009)

Or for God sake, or Allah's sake!

Trying to follow the Koran is like trying to figure out what mythical beast Bigfoot has got pregnant next.

Only Nelson Aspin can figure that out.


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## Kalam (Nov 4, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> I donated my copy to the library,
> That is an interesting take on Qutb you have there .
> Real passive aggressive psychobabble


You take issue with my diagnosis of misogyny? 



Mr.Fitnah said:


> Im sure  Islam online.net doesn't know that  much about Qutb,
> an just put his stuff up  there  to mislead people like me.



No, he doubtlessly had an influence on Qaradawi. Qaradawi is simply a bit less extreme and doesn't call for the toppling of all non-Islamic governments and the like. I don't necessarily endorse his views, either, I'm simply showing that even "conservatives" in Islam aren't necessarily extremists. It goes without saying that I would be considered a liberal.


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## Mr.Fitnah (Nov 4, 2009)

On topics of jihad, pluralism apostasy,
I expect uniform deceit in modern "scholarship".

Why publish the truth  when the goal is hindered by its publication?
Better to lie to allay the fears of the victims they to lay it  all out there for all to see,

Or maybe  publish the truth on  some "radical" site that everyone can call heretical  hate speech,  but believeres can still go to and check to make sure they are hating the right people  for the right reason.

yeah that sounds more than plausible.


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## Kalam (Nov 4, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> On topics of jihad, pluralism apostasy,
> I expect uniform deceit in modern "scholarship".
> 
> Why publish the truth  when the goal is hindered by its publication?
> ...



Oh my, will the theory of a vast Muslim conspiracy become this generations _Protocols_? Don't insult what intelligence you may possess by believing something so stupid. The burden of proof lies with you; I wish you the best of luck in unearthing the minutes from our last secret meeting. 

I'll direct your attention to the traffic ratings. Perhaps the site ranks so highly in Arab Muslim countries because somebody forgot to inform the Arab Muslims of the vast conspiracy.

Listen to yourself.


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## Mr.Fitnah (Nov 4, 2009)

Yeah, you are to the left  of who ever is the Dennis Kucinich of Mekka


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## Kalam (Nov 4, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> Yeah, you are to the left  of who ever is the Dennis Kucinich of Mekka



Mostly because of scientific issues like evolution and the supernatural. The positions I take on issues like jihad and apostasy have mainstream support.


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## Mr.Fitnah (Nov 4, 2009)

Kalam said:


> Mr.Fitnah said:
> 
> 
> > On topics of jihad, pluralism apostasy,
> ...



Thats is pretty funny,
Unfortunately what I post is far more plausible that what you post on a regular basis.


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## JW Frogen (Nov 4, 2009)

The mainstream is just a big fat lazy river that never causes any greif, it if the fanatic floods that are the problem.

And I call for drought.


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## Kalam (Nov 4, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> Kalam said:
> 
> 
> > Mr.Fitnah said:
> ...



I think we both know that this isn't true.


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## Mr.Fitnah (Nov 4, 2009)

GN Jack.


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## Kalam (Nov 4, 2009)

To be continued...


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## JW Frogen (Nov 4, 2009)

You know what?

I do not give and infedel's ass what Islam forbids.

No more than I do what Valemort commands, or the Tooth Fairy demands.


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## Kalam (Nov 4, 2009)

JW Frogen said:


> You know what?
> 
> I do not give and infedel's ass what Islam forbids.



I can tell by your regular contributions to this thread.


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## Mr.Fitnah (Nov 8, 2009)

Many muslims like to say " Islam forbids the killing of innocent people"
Please provide Islamic scripture to prove unequivocally non muslims are innocent.


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## mal (Nov 9, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> Many muslims like to say " Islam forbids the killing of innocent people"
> Please provide Islamic scripture to prove unequivocally non muslims are innocent.



That Request still ain't been Filled, eh Fitnah?...



peace...


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## Mr.Fitnah (Nov 9, 2009)

Kalam said:


> Mr.Fitnah said:
> 
> 
> > Yeah, you are to the left  of who ever is the Dennis Kucinich of Mekka
> ...


Missed  that one,
Perhaps on your ward , not in the Mosque.


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## Sunni Man (Nov 9, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> Kalam said:
> 
> 
> > Mr.Fitnah said:
> ...


What mosque did you go to Mr Fitnuts?


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## Kalam (Nov 9, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> Kalam said:
> 
> 
> > Mr.Fitnah said:
> ...



I'm sure you'd like to believe that.

False Accusations Regarding the Grand Mufti and Sayyid al-Qimni | None | My Website
http://weekly.ahram.org.eg/2007/857/eg9.htm
IslamonLine.net
BBC Persian(Farsi)
Jihad: Its True Meaning and Purpose - IslamonLine.net - Ask The Scholar
Non-Violence and Islam
Jihad: Looking beyond the myths


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## Mr.Fitnah (Nov 9, 2009)

Kalam said:


> Mr.Fitnah said:
> 
> 
> > Kalam said:
> ...



Thanks  we've seen your apolgetics.They leave us  where we started 

Many muslims like to say " Islam forbids the killing of innocent people"
Please provide Islamic scripture to prove unequivocally non muslims are innocent.


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## Kalam (Nov 9, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> Thanks  we've seen your apolgetics.They leave us  where we started
> 
> Many muslims like to say " Islam forbids the killing of innocent people"
> Please provide Islamic scripture to prove unequivocally non muslims are innocent.





_*Name of Questioner:* Mahmoud - Egypt	
*Title:* Aggression Against Innocent People
*Question:* As-salamu `alaykum wa rahmatu Allah wa baraktuh. Could you please clarify the Islamic stance on violence and aggression? Also, please shed light on the relation between Muslims and non-Muslims.

*Answer:*
Wa`alaykum As-Salamu wa Rahmatullahi wa Barakatuh.

In the Name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.

All praise and thanks are due to Allah, and peace and blessings be upon His Messenger.

Dear questioner, thanks for your question and we implore Allah Almighty to help us serve His cause and render our work for His Sake. May Allah reward you abundantly for your interest in knowing the teachings of Islam.

One of the important objectives of Islam is to safeguard people's life, property and honor. It is in this light that Islam prohibited aggression against innocent people, Muslims and non-Muslims alike. The Qur'an and the Sunnah are abundant with provisions that crystallize and emphasize this principle. In the Sunnah we read that a woman entered Hell Fire because she tied a cat until it starved. Then, what will be the fate of those who shed innocent people's blood and violate their rights?

Shedding more light on the issue of violence, intolerance, and aggression against innocent civilians, the eminent Muslim scholar Sheikh Yusuf Al-Qaradawi states:

No doubt, aggression against innocent people is a grave sin and a heinous crime, irrespective of the victim's religion, country, or race. No one is permitted to commit such crime, for Allah, Most High, abhors aggression. Unlike Judaism, Islam does not hold a double-standard policy in safeguarding human rights.

Following, I would like to highlight some relevant Islamic principles based on the Glorious Qur'an and Sunnah:

1. Islam Forbids Aggression Against Innocent People

Islam does not permit aggression against innocent people, whether the aggression is against life, property, or honor, and this ruling applies to everyone, regardless of post, status and prestige. In Islam, as the states subject is addressed with Islamic teachings, so is the ruler or caliph; he is not allowed to violate people's rights, lives, honor, property, etc.

In the Farewell Pilgrimage, the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) declared the principle that people's lives, property, and honor are inviolable until the Day of Judgment. This ruling is not restricted to Muslims; rather, it includes non-Muslims who are not fighting Muslims. Even in case of war, Islam does not permit killing those who are not involved in fighting, such as women, children, the aged, and the monks who confine themselves to worship only.

This shouldnt raise any wonder, for Islam is a religion that prohibits aggression even against animals. Ibn `Umar, may Allah be pleased with them both, quote the Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, as saying: "A woman (was made to) enter (Hell) Fire because of a cat which she tied, neither giving it food nor setting it free to eat from the vermin of the earth." (Reported by Al-Bukhari)

If such is Islamic ruling concerning aggressive acts against animals, then, with greater reason, the punishment is bond to be severe when human being happens to be the victim of aggression, torture and terrorism.

2. Individual Responsibility

In Islam, every one is held accountable for his own acts, not others'. No one bears the consequences of others' faults, even his close relatives. This is the ultimate form of justice, clarified in the Glorious Qur'an, as Allah, Most High, says, (Or hath he not had news of what is in the books of Moses and Abraham who fulfilled (the commandments): That no laden one shall bear another's load.) (An-Najm 53: 36-38)

Therefore, its very disgusting to see some people  who are Muslims by name launching aggression against innocent people and taking them as scapegoats for any disagreement they have with the states authority!! What is the crime of the common people then?! Murder is one of heinous crimes completely abhorred in Islam, to the extent that some Muslim scholars hold the opinion that the repentance of the murderer will not be accepted by Allah, Most High. In this context, we recall the Glorious Qur'anic verse that reads, (if any one slew a person - unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land - it would be as if he slew the whole peoplee.) (Al-Ma'idah 5: 32)

3. Ends Do not Justify Means

In Islam, the notion End justifies the means has no place at all. It is not allowed to attain good aims through evil means, and, therefore, alms collected from unlawful avenues are not halal (lawful). In this context, the Messenger of Allah, (peace and blessings be upon him) said, "Surely, Allah is Good and never accepts but what is good."

Thus, in Shari`ah, with all its sources the Glorious Qur'an, the Sunnah, consensus of Muslim jurists aggression and violation of human rights are completely forbidden.

Besides, it is the duty of the Muslim scholars to do their utmost to guide the perplexed people to the straight and upright path.​
Also, Dr. Muzammil Siddiqi, President of the Fiqh Council of North America, adds:

The Islamic position as regards non-Muslims is that they should recognize Allahs Oneness and Prophet Muhammad as Allahs Final Prophet. They should accept Islam to live happily and successfully in this world and to be saved in the Hereafter. It is Muslims duty to give them this message clearly, but without any coercion or intolerance. If others accept this message it is good for them, but if they do not accept, Muslims should still treat them with kindness and gentleness and leave the final judgment to Allah.

In our enthusiasm for da`wah, we should not be intolerant and aggressive towards others. However, in our politeness and civility we should also not give up our mission and message. We should not be intimidated to become quiet and we should not feel shy to tell the truth.

We must know that Islam is Allahs way to salvation. Islamic message is unique, authentic and divine. Islam is for the whole world and all people are invited to accept this message. It is our duty to convey this message in the most beautiful and effective manner. We should be the witnesses of Allah to the world by our words and our deeds to all human beings.​_


----------



## Mr.Fitnah (Nov 9, 2009)




----------



## Mr.Fitnah (Nov 9, 2009)

Many muslims like to say " Islam forbids the killing of innocent people"
Please provide Islamic scripture to prove unequivocally non muslims are innocent.


----------



## Kalam (Nov 9, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> Many muslims like to say " Islam forbids the killing of innocent people"
> Please provide Islamic scripture to prove unequivocally non muslims are innocent.



It has been done. Direct any further questions toward Shaykh Qaradawi.


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## Mr.Fitnah (Nov 9, 2009)

Kalam said:


> Mr.Fitnah said:
> 
> 
> > Many muslims like to say " Islam forbids the killing of innocent people"
> ...


Real  want to light light the scripture?
Many muslims like to say " Islam forbids the killing of innocent people"
Please provide Islamic scripture to prove unequivocally non muslims are innocent.


----------



## Mr.Fitnah (Nov 9, 2009)

Kalam said:


> 1. Islam Forbids Aggression Against Innocent People
> 
> Islam does not permit aggression against innocent people, whether the aggression is against life, property, or honor, and this ruling applies to everyone, regardless of post, status and prestige. In Islam, as the states subject is addressed with Islamic teachings, so is the ruler or caliph; he is not allowed to violate people's rights, lives, honor, property, etc.
> 
> ...



If is a big word.

Page Not Found > USC College of Letters, Arts & Sciences... 

Book 010, Number 3813: 
Abu Zubair heard Jabir b.'Abdullah (Allah be pleased with him) saying: Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) ordered us to kill dogs, and we carried out this order so much so that we also kill the dog coming with a woman from the desert. Then Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) forbade their killing. He (the Holy Prophet further) said: It is your duty the jet-black (dog) having two spots (on the eyes), for it is a devil.

Book 010, Number 3820: 
Salim b. Abdullah reported on the authority of his father that Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) said: Whosover amongst the owners of the house keeps a dog other than one meant for watching the herd or for hunting loses two qirat of his deeds every day. 

During prophet time, dogs used to come and urinate in the mosque all the time. Prophet was so sick and tired that he ordered all dogs of Madina killed.

Bukhari Volume 1, Book 4, Number 174:

Narrated Abu Huraira:
Hamza bin 'Abdullah narrated: My father said. "During the lifetime of Allah's Apostle, the dogs used to urinate, and pass through the mosques (come and go)."

Bukhari volume 4, Book 54, Number 540:
Narrated 'Abdullah bin 'Umar:
Allah's Apostle ordered that the dogs should be killed.





http://www.islam-qa.com/index.php... 
If Mohammad had been a real prophet he would know that he was killing of a suppressant to a disease  carrying pest

_http://www.podarcis.nl/info/salamandersuk.php... 

FOOD
The size of the food depends on the size of the salamander eating it. On land, all types of live prey can be offered: worms, crickets, meal worms, slugs, moths, and other small invertebrates. Additionally, a vitamin/mineral additive (e.g. Gisto*cal, Carmix, Reptovit or Korvimin) can be dusted onto the prey animals. This is especially important for growing animals. They also require additional calcium for building bones. The food is best offered in a low dish or bowl placed in a depression in the substrate. 

In the water one can also offer live prey, such as tubi*fex, worms and red mosquito larvae. Many animals adapt well to taking dead prey, like frozen mosquito larvae, Mysis, pieces of cow's heart, liver, chicken, and whatever else comes to mind. Ensure that everything gets eaten as remaining food will decompose. Juvenile salamanders eat basically the same food as adults do, the food items just need to be smaller. In the water they eat tubifex, Daphnia, small worms and red mosquito larvae. On land, buffalo worms, fruit flies and their maggots, red mosquito larvae and small crickets can be offered._

Volume:4 Book :54 (Beginning of Creation)Number :525 Top 
Narrated Aisha: 

The Prophet called the Salamander, a mischief-doer. I have not heard him ordering that it should be killed. Sad bin Waqqas claims that the Prophet ordered that it should be killed. 


Index Book: Beginning of Creation Email this hadith 


Volume:4 Book :54 (Beginning of Creation)Number :526 Top 
Narrated Um Sharik: 

That the Prophet ordered her to kill Salamanders. 




Volume:4 Book :54 (Beginning of Creation)Number :527 Top 
Narrated Aisha: 

The Prophet said, "Kill the snake with two white lines on its back, for it blinds the on-looker and causes abortion." 


Index Book: Beginning of Creation Email this hadith 


Volume:4 Book :54 (Beginning of Creation)Number :528 Top 
Narrated Aisha: 

The Prophet ordered that a short-tailed or mutilated-tailed snake (i.e. Abtar) should be killed, for it blinds the on-looker and causes abortion." 


Index Book: Beginning of Creation Email this hadith 


Volume:4 Book :54 (Beginning of Creation)Number :529 Top 
Narrated Abu Mulaika: 

Ibn Umar used to kill snakes, but afterwards he forbade their killing and said, "Once the Prophet pulled down a wall and saw a cast-off skin of a snake in it. He said,'Look for the snake.'They found it and the Prophet said, "Kill it." For this reason I used to kill snakes. Later on I met Abu Lubaba who told me the Prophet said,'Do not kill snakes except the short-tailed or mutilated-tailed snake with two white lines on its back, for it causes abortion and makes one blind. So kill it.' " 


Index Book: Beginning of Creation Email this hadith 


Volume:4 Book :54 (Beginning of Creation)Number :530 Top 
Narrated Nafi: 

Ibn 'Umar used to kill snakes but when Abu Lubaba informed him that the Prophet had forbidden the killing of snakes living in houses, he gave up killing them.


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## Liability (Nov 9, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> Kalam said:
> 
> 
> > 1. Islam Forbids Aggression Against Innocent People
> ...



WTF?

And the Prophet (pbuH) stepped on a Jew and 'lo!  all of the {Muslims} from that day on despised the Jews and called them monkeys and slaughtered them in great numbers, for Allah, being all-knowing knows what is good.  And how can ye know any less, then?


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## Mr.Fitnah (Nov 9, 2009)

What it means is "Kalam" was trying to pawn of an instance of Mohammad being  rational  and objecting to cruelty to animals and then trying to give the same blanket  protection to people  when  in fact Mohammad's cruelty to animals  and his ignorance are well documented .



> This shouldn&#8217;t raise any wonder, for Islam is a religion that prohibits aggression even against animals. Ibn `Umar, may Allah be pleased with them both, quote the Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, as saying: "A woman (was made to) enter (Hell) Fire because of a cat which she tied, neither giving it food nor setting it free to eat from the vermin of the earth." (Reported by Al-Bukhari)
> 
> If such is Islamic ruling concerning aggressive acts against animals, then, with greater reason, the punishment is bond to be severe when human being happens to be the victim of aggression, torture and terrorism.


Irrational cruelty and near perfect ignorance of Islams only prophet.

http://www.usmessageboard.com/1700768-post1173.html


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## Intense (Nov 10, 2009)

Kalam ..... 

What is Original Sin?

Will You Define Innocent?

Who is Innocent?


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## PixieStix (Nov 10, 2009)

Islam forbids, NOT being; what civilized people call, "radical" for allah 

Everything is about Islam and the qu'ran, adherence is of the utmost importance.

Who is innocent must be addressed. And according to the book, anyone who is not Muslim or Muslim enough is NOT innocent, we are either apostates or we are infidels. It is black and white, no gray areas. But I am sure many Muslims want those gray areas.

But can they rewrite the book, and not be an apostate?


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## Sunni Man (Nov 10, 2009)

Intense said:


> What is Original Sin?



There is no concept of orginal sin in Islam

That is a Christian invention


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## Intense (Nov 10, 2009)

Sunni Man said:


> Intense said:
> 
> 
> > What is Original Sin?
> ...



I believe it started with Adam and Eve pointing fingers.


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## Sunni Man (Nov 10, 2009)

Intense said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> > Intense said:
> ...


In the Bible neither Adam or Eve want to take responsibility for their actions and blame others.

This is not the case in the Quran.


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## Intense (Nov 10, 2009)

Sunni Man said:


> Intense said:
> 
> 
> > Sunni Man said:
> ...



The Quran Blames All that Question It's Authority Over Them. The Bible actually does too. Conscience is the Only survivor because It is Directly Accountable to God Sunni. The Bible and Quran are Tools of This World, exposed to the same risks as anything else before Us, that is of Material being. Many have been selling the Treasure Maps to Salvation as if Theirs is the Only True Way Sunni. Funny though how the Bible Itself and I will Presume the Quran, Too, will tell You that The Real Truth is Within You. Take the Hint and learn to be Your best Self. God First in All things. Stay clear of the snares. See you on the Other side? Who can say with surety?


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## Kalam (Nov 10, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> Book 010, Number 3813:
> Abu Zubair heard Jabir b.'Abdullah (Allah be pleased with him) saying: Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) ordered us to kill dogs, and we carried out this order so much so that we also kill the dog coming with a woman from the desert. Then Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) forbade their killing. He (the Holy Prophet further) said: It is your duty the jet-black (dog) having two spots (on the eyes), for it is a devil.


It would be proper to mention the hadith collection in your citations. This report comes from Muslim's _Sahih_. Of course, it was decided via ijma' that this hadith was falsely attributed to the prophet (SAWS). 

Dogs in the Islamic Tradition and Nature (Article Included)



Mr.Fitnah said:


> Book 010, Number 3820:
> Salim b. Abdullah reported on the authority of his father that Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) said: Whosover amongst the owners of the house keeps a dog other than one meant for watching the herd or for hunting loses two qirat of his deeds every day.


...And here we see no evidence of mistreating animals. 



Mr.Fitnah said:


> Narrated Abu Huraira:
> Hamza bin 'Abdullah narrated: My father said. "During the lifetime of Allah's Apostle, the dogs used to urinate, and pass through the mosques (come and go)."


We can look at the entire report to see what was done in response to this:

_Narrated Abu Huraira: The Prophet said, "A man saw a dog eating mud from thirst. So, that man took a shoe with water and kept on pouring the water for the dog till it quenched its thirst. So Allah approved of his deed and made him to enter Paradise." And narrated Hamza bin 'Abdullah: My father said. "During the lifetime of Allah's Apostle, the dogs used to urinate, and pass through the mosques, nevertheless they never used to sprinkle water on it (urine of the dog.)"  _

- Sahih Bukhari, _Wudu_ ("Ablutions"), no. 174​
You, or more likely the website you cut and pasted this report from, conveniently omitted the portion describing the rewards for kindness to animals and the tame response to dogs urinating in the masjids. I wonder why?



Mr.Fitnah said:


> Bukhari volume 4, Book 54, Number 540:
> Narrated 'Abdullah bin 'Umar:
> Allah's Apostle ordered that the dogs should be killed.


A quick reference to the text makes it obvious that the dogs referenced here were rabid dogs:

_Narrated 'Aisha: The Prophet said, "Five kinds of animals are mischief-doers and can be killed even in the Sanctuary: They are the rat the scorpion, the kite, the crow and the rabid dog."  _

- Sahih Bukhari, "Beginning of Creation", no. 531.​ 


Mr.Fitnah said:


> Volume:4 Book :54 (Beginning of Creation)Number :525 Top
> Narrated Aisha:
> 
> The Prophet called the Salamander, a mischief-doer. I have not heard him ordering that it should be killed. Sad bin Waqqas claims that the Prophet ordered that it should be killed.


Salamanders do not live in the Arabian peninsula. The word has either been translated incorrectly or refers to an amphibian that would not fit the taxonomic definition of "salamander" today. Either way, your suggestion that knowledge of salamanders is a necessary component of prophethood is laughable at best. 

The rest of your passages deal with killing poisonous snakes. I'm not even sure why you chose to include them in your post here. Here is another report that should clarify Islam's position on cruelty to animals:

_Narrated Abu Huraira: Allah's Apostle said, "A prostitute was forgiven by Allah, because, passing by a panting dog near a well and seeing that the dog was about to die of thirst, she took off her shoe, and tying it with her head-cover she drew out some water for it. So, Allah forgave her because of that."_

-Sahih Bukhari, "Beginning of Creation", no. 538​
Your failure to successfully argue that Islam enjoins cruelty to animals and your failure to address the majority of the points raised by Qaradawi have been duly noted.


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## Kalam (Nov 10, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> Irrational cruelty and near perfect ignorance of Islams only prophet.


_Please_ say that Shaykh Qaradawi is ignorant of Muhammad (SAWS). I need a quote for my signature. Better yet, tell Islamonline yourself and post the response here. I'm sure they'll be taken down a few pegs by your incalculable knowledge of fiqh and scripture.


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## Kalam (Nov 10, 2009)

Liability casts in his lot with the Islamophobe in spite of knowing nothing about the topic and not taking the time to look into it himself. How predictable.


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## Kalam (Nov 10, 2009)

Swizzlestix's implicit claim that she knows enough about Islam to draw theological conclusions does not even merit a response.


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## Kalam (Nov 10, 2009)

Here we have it: Fitnuts shamelessly claims that he knows more about Islamic theology and jurisprudence than one of the religion's most eminent scholars and posts a response to him so poorly substantiated that a humble lay-Muslim was able to refute it. Has this thread run its course, or what?


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## Mr.Fitnah (Nov 10, 2009)

Kalam said:


> Your failure to successfully argue that Islam enjoins cruelty to animals and your failure to address the majority of the points raised by Qaradawi have been duly noted.


Sorry  you  have presented  a apologetic that says Islam forbids the killing of innocent people but  has failed to  show  how non muslims are innocent.
Your imagining that you have provided  proof is circular reasoning .
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e1fKzw05Q5A&feature=related]YouTube - Idiocracy Brawndo's Got Electrolytes[/ame]

The hadith you present as pathetic proof to support your preposterous  proposition  concerning Islam's rational approach to animals 

_The Book Pertaining to Clothes and Decoration (Kitab Al-Libas wa'l-Zinah)  
Muslim :: Book 24 : Hadith 5248 
Maimuna reported that one morning Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) was silent with grief. Maimuna said: Allah's Messenger, I find a change in your mood today. Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) said: Gabriel had promised me that he would meet me tonight, but he did not meet me. By Allah, he never broke his promises, and Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) spent the day in this sad (mood). Then it occurred to him that there had been a puppy under their cot. He commanded and it was turned out. He then took some water in his hand and sprinkled it at that place. When it was evening Gabriel met him and he said to him: you promised me that you would meet me the previous night. He said: Yes, but we do not enter a house in which there is a dog or a picture. Then on that very morning he commanded the killing of the dogs until he announced that the dog kept for the orchards should also be killed, but he spared the dog meant for the protection of extensive fields (or big gardens)._


and only illuminates the ridicules rules and rituals of Islam, Killing  animals is prohibited  when a muslim is in  the" purified" state ' with exceptions .
Bukhari :: Book 4 :: Volume 54 :: Hadith 532 
Narrated 'Abdullah bin 'Umar: 

Allah's Apostle said, "It is not sinful of a person in the state of Ihram to kill any of these five animals: The scorpion, the rat, the rabid dog, the crow and the kite." 
Bukhari :: Book 4 :: Volume 54 :: Hadith 531 
Narrated 'Aisha: 

The Prophet said, "Five kinds of animals are mischief-doers and can be killed even in the Sanctuary: They are the rat the scorpion, the kite, the crow and the rabid dog." 


Salamanders  indigenous  to Saudi Arabia eat mosquito larva  killing them  helps spread a plague that hits muslims  nations hardest .


Your assertions as well your sheiks are flimsy lies .


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## Mr.Fitnah (Nov 10, 2009)

Kalam said:


> Here we have it: Fitnuts shamelessly claims that he knows more about Islamic theology and jurisprudence than one of the religion's most eminent scholars and posts a response to him so poorly substantiated that a humble lay-Muslim was able to refute it. Has this thread run its course, or what?


I dont need to be a scholar to
recognize bullshit regardless of how artfully it is arranged, when I see it.
Your " eminent scholars" are bullshit artists, as are you.


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## Mr.Fitnah (Nov 10, 2009)

Many muslims like to say " Islam forbids the killing of innocent people"
Please provide Islamic scripture to prove unequivocally non muslims are innocent.


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## Kalam (Nov 10, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> Sorry  you  have presented  a apologetic that says Islam forbids the killing of innocent people but  has failed to  show  how non muslims are innocent.


This doesn't even require scripture to be demonstrated. It can be extrapolated from the fact that Muhammad (SAWS) did not slaughter every disbeliever with whom he came into contact. Muhammad (SAWS) allied himself with some non-Muslims, fought against others, and admitted others yet into the ummah of believers (Madinah Compact.) We're to follow his example and treat non-believers based on their deeds and merits, not their beliefs.

I will invoke scripture anyway. The non-innocent are defined in 5:32 - 

_For this reason We prescribed for the Children of Israel that whoever kills a person, unless it be for murder or for mischief in the land, it is as though he had killed all men. And whoever saves a life, it is as though he had saved the lives of all men. And certainly Our messengers came to them with clear arguments, but even after that many of them commit excesses in the land._​
This ayah associates the non-innocent (non-innocent to the extent of deserving death) with those guilty of murder and spreading "mischief" (_fasad_) in the land. The first category is clear and the second can be define more clearly by examining the specific offenses with which _fasad_ is associated in the Qur'an. The following crimes are those mentioned specifically in conjunction with _fasad_:


Unjust violence, purposeful destruction of property and/or means of subsistence (2:205);
Participation in unjust wars (5:62);
Refusal to provide assistance to refugees when doing so is possible (8:72-73);
Acting in the manner of Pharaoh, meaning persecuting others for religious reasons as he persecuted Moses (89:12).

It should also be noted that these crimes must be "[spread]... in the land" to be considered capital offenses, presumably meaning that they must be committed on multiple occasions or be especially heinous. Purposefully killing a person for reasons other than those listed above, then, can be considered unjust according to the Qur'an and Islam. 

_fasad_ = &#1601;&#1614;&#1587;&#1614;&#1575;&#1583;&#1613;

See also:
Fasad - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



Mr.Fitnah said:


> Your imagining that you have provided  proof is circular reasoning .


Your imagining that your argument hasn't been refuted in nearly every way possible is a product of your fanatical commitment to justifying your hatred for Islam.



Mr.Fitnah said:


> The hadith you present as pathetic proof to support your preposterous  proposition  concerning Islam's rational approach to animals


I acknowledge that you are unable to refute my argument in light of the clear ahadith I posted regarding the treatment of animals. Your concession is accepted. 



Mr.Fitnah said:


> and only illuminates the ridicules rules and rituals of Islam, Killing  animals is prohibited  when a muslim is in  the" purified" state ' with exceptions.


...Highlighting Islam's opposition to animal cruelty.



Mr.Fitnah said:


> Salamanders  indigenous  to Saudi Arabia eat mosquito larva  killing them  helps spread a plague that hits muslims  nations hardest.


No significant number of members of the Caudata order of amphibians inhabits the Arabian peninsula. If you find that this is incorrect, please provide something from a respected ecological source that says so.



Mr.Fitnah said:


> Your assertions as well your sheiks are flimsy lies .


My assertions are wholly supported by scripture. You have not even begun to address Qaradawi's argument, much less demonstrate that it's a "lie." He's not my shaykh. 

_It is reported on the authority of Abu Huraira that the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) observed: He who believes in Allah and the Last Day should either utter good words or better keep silence; and he who believes in Allah and the Last Day should treat his neighbour with kindness and he who believes in Allah and the Last Day should show hospitality to his guest._

-Sahih Muslim, _Iman_ ("Faith"), no. 75​


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## Kalam (Nov 10, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> I dont need to be a scholar to recognize bullshit regardless of how artfully it is arranged, when I see it. Your " eminent scholars" are bullshit artists, as are you.



So prove it and send your "rebuttal" to Qaradawi.


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## Mr.Fitnah (Nov 10, 2009)

Kalam said:


> Mr.Fitnah said:
> 
> 
> > Salamanders  indigenous  to Saudi Arabia eat mosquito larva  killing them  helps spread a plague that hits muslims  nations hardest.
> ...


Moving the goal post , 


Kalam said:


> Salamanders do not live in the Arabian peninsula.


http://www.usmessageboard.com/1703281-post1182.html


Kalam said:


> Mr.Fitnah said:
> 
> 
> > Your assertions as well your sheiks are flimsy lies .
> ...


"Lies" to present am whitewashed image of Islam  a  distorted  image.
If your post  represent Islam  mine do as well.  
As are mine.
Meaning of Mischief 





In his Tafsir, As-Suddi said that Ibn `Abbas and Ibn Mas`ud commented,


&#64831;&#1608;&#1614;&#1573;&#1616;&#1584;&#1614;&#1575; &#1602;&#1616;&#1610;&#1604;&#1614; &#1604;&#1614;&#1607;&#1615;&#1605;&#1618; &#1604;&#1575;&#1614; &#1578;&#1615;&#1601;&#1618;&#1587;&#1616;&#1583;&#1615;&#1608;&#1575;&#1618; &#1601;&#1616;&#1609; &#1575;&#1604;&#1571;&#1614;&#1585;&#1618;&#1590;&#1616; &#1602;&#1614;&#1575;&#1604;&#1615;&#1608;&#1575;&#1618; &#1573;&#1616;&#1606;&#1614;&#1617;&#1605;&#1614;&#1575; &#1606;&#1614;&#1581;&#1618;&#1606;&#1615; &#1605;&#1615;&#1589;&#1618;&#1604;&#1616;&#1581;&#1615;&#1608;&#1606;&#1614; &#64830;


(And when it is said to them: "Do not make mischief on the earth,'' they say: "We are only peacemakers.'') "They are the hypocrites. As for,


&#64831;&#1604;&#1575;&#1614; &#1578;&#1615;&#1601;&#1618;&#1587;&#1616;&#1583;&#1615;&#1608;&#1575;&#1618; &#1601;&#1616;&#1609; &#1575;&#1604;&#1571;&#1614;&#1585;&#1618;&#1590;&#1616;&#64830;


("Do not make mischief on the earth''), that is disbelief and acts of disobedience.'' Abu Ja`far said that Ar-Rabi` bin Anas said that Abu Al-`Aliyah said that Allah's statement,


&#64831;&#1608;&#1614;&#1573;&#1616;&#1584;&#1614;&#1575; &#1602;&#1616;&#1610;&#1604;&#1614; &#1604;&#1614;&#1607;&#1615;&#1605;&#1618; &#1604;&#1575;&#1614; &#1578;&#1615;&#1601;&#1618;&#1587;&#1616;&#1583;&#1615;&#1608;&#1575;&#1618; &#1601;&#1616;&#1609; &#1575;&#1604;&#1571;&#1614;&#1585;&#1618;&#1590;&#1616;&#64830;


(And when it is said to them: "Do not make mischief on the earth,''), means, "Do not commit acts of disobedience on the earth. Their mischief is disobeying Allah, because whoever disobeys Allah on the earth, or commands that Allah be disobeyed, he has committed mischief on the earth. Peace on both the earth and in the heavens is ensured (and earned) through obedience (to Allah).'' Ar-Rabi` bin Anas and Qatadah said similarly.


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## Kalam (Nov 10, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> As are mine.
> Meaning of Mischief



I'm sorry; commentaries do not constitute scripture. Unless what you post has an irrefutable scriptural basis, it can be dismissed as a false interpretation.


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## Mr.Fitnah (Nov 10, 2009)

Kalam said:


> Mr.Fitnah said:
> 
> 
> > As are mine.
> ...


Really?
Please  provide  some scholarly  opinion  that  suggest  Tafsir Ibn Kathir  should be dismissed as a false interpretation.


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## Kalam (Nov 10, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> Kalam said:
> 
> 
> > Mr.Fitnah said:
> ...


You'll notice that I did not say that his tafsir in its entirety should be rejected, but that specific interpretation -- unless it can be shown to have a firm basis in scripture -- can be dismissed. 

How about you demonstrate that _fasad_ means "disobedience (to God)" using the Qur'an? I have already explained its meaning in the Qur'anic sense.

And don't pretend like you care about "scholarly opinions" unless they reinforce your preconceptions, hypocrite.


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## Mr.Fitnah (Nov 10, 2009)

Kalam said:


> Mr.Fitnah said:
> 
> 
> > Kalam said:
> ...



You go with Wikipedia,
Which states:
Fasad is an Arabic language term meaning corruption, unlawful warfare, or crimes against law and order in the *Muslim community.*[1] The Qur'an relates the term to actions during wartime that would qualify as war crimes, such as the deliberate killing of non-combatant civilians.[1] In recent years, many Islamic thinkers have defined acts of terrorism by Muslims as "fasad" and anti-Islamic.[2][3][1]
Fasad is a general concept of social disorder that, within Islamic jurisprudence, is the source of and basis for 'Hirabah'-related laws. 'Hirabah' refers to illegal acts done under the principle of fasad.[4]

Which  ignores Islamic principles .
2:193.  
And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allâh) and (all and every kind of) worship is for Allâh (Alone).[] But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against Az-Zâlimûn (the polytheists, and wrong-doers, etc.)  
The Noble Quran : Surat 2

let there be no transgression except against Az-Zâlimûn 
let there be no transgression except against Az-Zâlimûn 
let there be no transgression except against Az-Zâlimûn 
let there be no transgression except against Az-Zâlimûn 

Ill stick  with the most widely accepted exegesis of the Quran known to mankind.
Meaning of Mischief 





In his Tafsir, As-Suddi said that Ibn `Abbas and Ibn Mas`ud commented,


&#64831;&#1608;&#1614;&#1573;&#1616;&#1584;&#1614;&#1575; &#1602;&#1616;&#1610;&#1604;&#1614; &#1604;&#1614;&#1607;&#1615;&#1605;&#1618; &#1604;&#1575;&#1614; &#1578;&#1615;&#1601;&#1618;&#1587;&#1616;&#1583;&#1615;&#1608;&#1575;&#1618; &#1601;&#1616;&#1609; &#1575;&#1604;&#1571;&#1614;&#1585;&#1618;&#1590;&#1616; &#1602;&#1614;&#1575;&#1604;&#1615;&#1608;&#1575;&#1618; &#1573;&#1616;&#1606;&#1614;&#1617;&#1605;&#1614;&#1575; &#1606;&#1614;&#1581;&#1618;&#1606;&#1615; &#1605;&#1615;&#1589;&#1618;&#1604;&#1616;&#1581;&#1615;&#1608;&#1606;&#1614; &#64830;


(And when it is said to them: "Do not make mischief on the earth,'' they say: "We are only peacemakers.'') "They are the hypocrites. As for,


&#64831;&#1604;&#1575;&#1614; &#1578;&#1615;&#1601;&#1618;&#1587;&#1616;&#1583;&#1615;&#1608;&#1575;&#1618; &#1601;&#1616;&#1609; &#1575;&#1604;&#1571;&#1614;&#1585;&#1618;&#1590;&#1616;&#64830;


("Do not make mischief on the earth''), that is disbelief and acts of disobedience.'' Abu Ja`far said that Ar-Rabi` bin Anas said that Abu Al-`Aliyah said that Allah's statement,


&#64831;&#1608;&#1614;&#1573;&#1616;&#1584;&#1614;&#1575; &#1602;&#1616;&#1610;&#1604;&#1614; &#1604;&#1614;&#1607;&#1615;&#1605;&#1618; &#1604;&#1575;&#1614; &#1578;&#1615;&#1601;&#1618;&#1587;&#1616;&#1583;&#1615;&#1608;&#1575;&#1618; &#1601;&#1616;&#1609; &#1575;&#1604;&#1571;&#1614;&#1585;&#1618;&#1590;&#1616;&#64830;


(And when it is said to them: "Do not make mischief on the earth,''), means, "Do not commit acts of disobedience on the earth. Their mischief is disobeying Allah, because whoever disobeys Allah on the earth, or commands that Allah be disobeyed, he has committed mischief on the earth. Peace on both the earth and in the heavens is ensured (and earned) through obedience (to Allah).'' Ar-Rabi` bin Anas and Qatadah said similarly.


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## Mr.Fitnah (Nov 11, 2009)

Many muslims like to say " Islam forbids the killing of innocent people"
Please provide Islamic scripture to prove unequivocally non muslims are innocent.


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## Mr.Fitnah (Nov 11, 2009)

Many muslims like to say " Islam forbids the killing of innocent people"
Please provide Islamic scripture to prove unequivocally non muslims are innocent.


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## logical4u (Nov 11, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> Many muslims like to say " Islam forbids the killing of innocent people"
> Please provide Islamic scripture to prove unequivocally non muslims are innocent.



Question: does that mean that muslims have a duty to kill ALL non-muslims because the 'islamic scripture' doesn't tell you they are innocent?  
I would like you to be clear with your answer and if possible, go ahead and quote where it tells you to murder anyone that is not muslim.


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## Mr.Fitnah (Nov 11, 2009)

logical4u said:


> Mr.Fitnah said:
> 
> 
> > Many muslims like to say " Islam forbids the killing of innocent people"
> ...


8:39

And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and polytheism: i.e. worshipping others besides Allâh) and the religion (worship) will all be for Allâh Alone [in the whole of the world[]]. But if they cease (worshipping others besides Allâh), then certainly, Allâh is All-Seer of what they do 
2:193.  
And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allâh) and (all and every kind of) worship is for Allâh (Alone).[] But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against Az-Zâlimûn (the polytheists, and wrong-doers, etc193

http://www.ummah.com/what-is-islam/quran/noble/

Tafsir.com Tafsir Ibn Kathir

Tafsir.com Tafsir Ibn Kathir

Tafsir.com Tafsir Ibn Kathir


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## Mr.Fitnah (Nov 11, 2009)

logical4u said:


> Mr.Fitnah said:
> 
> 
> > Many muslims like to say " Islam forbids the killing of innocent people"
> ...





33:21. Indeed in the Messenger of Allâh (Muhammad ) you have a good example to follow for him who hopes in (the Meeting with) Allâh and the Last Day and remembers Allâh much. 


'Abdullah bin 'Umar, may Allah be pleased with them, reported: 
Allah's Messenger said: I have been commanded to fight against people till they testify that there is no god but Allah, and that Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah, perform the Prayer, and pay Zakah. If they do that, their blood and property are guaranteed protection on my behalf except when justified by law, and their affairs rest with Allah. 
Display

Abu Hurairah, may Allah be pleased with him, reported: 
The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said: I have been commanded to fight against people until they testify that there is no god but Allah, and he who professes it is guaranteed the protection of his property and life on my behalf except for a right warrant, and his affairs rest with Allah. 
Display

Abu Hurairah, may Allah be pleased with him, narrated: 
When the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) died and Abu Bakr was appointed as his successor (Caliph), some tribes among the Arabs became apostates. 'Umar asked Abu Bakr: Why would you fight against the people, when Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) declared: I have been directed to fight against people till they say: There is no god but Allah? And he who professes it is granted full protection of his property and life on my behalf except for a right cause. His (other) affairs rest with Allah. Upon this Abu Bakr said: By Allah, I would definitely fight against those who severed the Prayer from Zakah, for it is the obligation upon the rich. By Allah, I would fight against them even if they withheld a cord (used for hobbling the feet of a camel) which they used to give to Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) (as Zakah). 
Hadith number in Sahih Muslim [Arabic only]: 29


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## Mr.Fitnah (Nov 11, 2009)

logical4u said:


> Mr.Fitnah said:
> 
> 
> > Many muslims like to say " Islam forbids the killing of innocent people"
> ...



There is no compulsion to accept Islam 

Question:
Some friends say that whoever does not enter Islam, that is his choice and he should not be forced to become Muslim, quoting as evidence the verses in which Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning): 
&#8220;And had your Lord willed, those on earth would have believed, all of them together. So, will you (O Muhammad) then compel mankind, until they become believers&#8221; 
[Yoonus 10:99] 
&#8220;There is no compulsion in religion&#8221; 
[al-Baqarah 2:256] 
What is your opinion concerning that?. 

Answer:
Praise be to Allaah. 

The scholars explained that these two verses, and other similar verses, have to do with those from whom the jizyah may be taken, such as Jews, Christians and Magians (Zoroastrians). They are not to be forced, rather they are to be given the choice between becoming Muslim or paying the jizyah. 

Other scholars said that this applied in the beginning, but was subsequently abrogated by Allaah&#8217;s command to fight and wage jihad. So whoever refuses to enter Islam should be fought when the Muslims are able to fight, until they either enter Islam or pay the jizyah if they are among the people who may pay jizyah. The kuffaar should be compelled to enter Islam if they are not people from whom the jizyah may be taken, because that will lead to their happiness and salvation in this world and in the Hereafter. Obliging a person to adhere to the truth in which is guidance and happiness is better for him than falsehood. Just as a person may be forced to do the duty that he owes to other people even if that is by means of imprisonment or beating, so forcing the kaafirs to believe in Allaah alone and enter into the religion of Islam is more important and more essential, because this will lead to their happiness in this world and in the Hereafter. This applies unless they are People of the Book, i.e., Jews and Christians, or Magians, because Islam says that these three groups may be given the choice: they may enter Islam or they may pay the jizyah and feel themselves subdued. 

Some of the scholars are of the view that others may also be given the choice between Islam and jizyah, but the most correct view is that no others should be given this choice, rather these three groups are the only ones who may be given the choice, because the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) fought the kuffaar in the Arabian Peninsula and he only accepted their becoming Muslim. And Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

But if they repent [by rejecting Shirk (polytheism) and accept Islamic Monotheism] and perform As-Salaah (Iqaamat-as-Salaah), and give Zakaah, then leave their way free. Verily, Allaah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful&#8221;

[al-Tawbah 9:5] 

*He did not say,&#8220;if they pay the jizyah&#8221;. The Jews, Christians and Magians are to be asked to enter Islam; if they refuse then they should be asked to pay the jizyah. If they refuse to pay the jizyah then the Muslims must fight them if they are able to do so. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning): 

&#8220;Fight against those who (1) believe not in Allaah,(2) nor in the Last Day,(3) nor forbid that which has been forbidden by Allaah and His Messenger (Muhammad),(4) and those who acknowledge not the religion of truth (i.e. Islam) among the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians), until they pay the Jizyah with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued&#8221;

[al-Tawbah 9:29] 

And it was proven that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) accepted the jizyah from the Magians, but it was not proven that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) or his companions (may Allaah be pleased with them) accepted the jizyah from anyone except the three groups mentioned above. 

The basic principle concerning that is the words of Allaah (interpretation of the meaning): 

&#8220;And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and polytheism, i.e. worshipping others besides Allaah), and the religion (worship) will all be for Allaah Alone [in the whole of the world]&#8221;

[al-Anfaal 8:39] 

&#8220;Then when the Sacred Months (the 1st, 7th, 11th, and 12th months of the Islamic calendar) have passed, then kill the Mushrikoon (see V.2:105) wherever you find them, and capture them and besiege them, and lie in wait for them in each and every ambush. But if they repent [by rejecting Shirk (polytheism) and accept Islamic Monotheism] and perform As-Salaah (Iqaamat-as-Salaah), and give Zakaah, then leave their way free. Verily, Allaah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful&#8221;

[al-Tawbah 9:5] 

This verse is known as Ayat al-Sayf (the verse of the sword). 

These and similar verses abrogate the verses which say that there is no compulsion to become Muslim. 
*
And Allaah is the Source of strength. 

Majmoo&#8217; Fataawa wa Maqaalaat li&#8217;l-Shaykh Ibn Baaz, 6/219 


Islam Question and Answer - There is no compulsion to accept Islam


----------



## Mr.Fitnah (Nov 11, 2009)

Islam Question and Answer - Meanings of the word fitnah in the Qur&#8217;aan


----------



## Mr.Fitnah (Nov 11, 2009)

logical4u said:


> Mr.Fitnah said:
> 
> 
> > Many muslims like to say " Islam forbids the killing of innocent people"
> ...


It would appear that that is clearly at least one interpretation.


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## Kalam (Nov 11, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> Ill stick  with the most widely accepted exegesis of the Quran known to mankind.


I accept your concession. Thank you for admitting that you're unable to demonstrate that _fasad_ means disobedience to God.


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## Kalam (Nov 11, 2009)

logical4u said:


> Mr.Fitnah said:
> 
> 
> > Many muslims like to say " Islam forbids the killing of innocent people"
> ...



You probably know as well as I do that he can't, because no such passage exists. His only resources are the website of some Saudi author and a Qur'anic commentary written just after the end of the Crusades. Fitnah is a dishonest tool.


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## Mr.Fitnah (Nov 11, 2009)

Kalam said:


> Mr.Fitnah said:
> 
> 
> > Ill stick  with the most widely accepted exegesis of the Quran known to mankind.
> ...



You really  are demented.
http://www.imsa.us/index2.php?option=com_content&do_pdf=1&id=312


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## Mr.Fitnah (Nov 11, 2009)

Kalam said:


> logical4u said:
> 
> 
> > Mr.Fitnah said:
> ...


Better written then, than commentary written now to whitewash Islam  while Islam  is under scrutiny  .


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## Kalam (Nov 11, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> http://www.imsa.us/index2.php?option=com_content&do_pdf=1&id=312


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## Kalam (Nov 11, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> Better written then, than commentary written now to whitewash Islam  while Islam  is under scrutiny  .





Of course purely Qur'anic interpretations are dismissed by you as "whitewashing." A tafsir written at the end of several centuries of Christian aggression is most likely going to advocate violence due to religious animosity. Ibn Kathir's interpretation of that ayah has no Qur'anic basis.


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## Mr.Fitnah (Nov 11, 2009)

Kalam said:


> Mr.Fitnah said:
> 
> 
> > http://www.imsa.us/index2.php?option=com_content&do_pdf=1&id=312



Al-Fasad appears when people follow their lusts and vain desires, when they try to twist the truth and distort the facts.
Instead of following the Truth and the Guidance from their Lord and Creator, they ignore and turn away from His message.

Dr. Muzammil H. Siddiqi

Whom you  use  to "prove your points"
http://www.usmessageboard.com/1700589-post1168.html


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## Mr.Fitnah (Nov 11, 2009)

Kalam said:


> Mr.Fitnah said:
> 
> 
> > Better written then, than commentary written now to whitewash Islam  while Islam  is under scrutiny  .
> ...


Jihad begat crusades.

*Ibn Kathir wrote a famous commentary on the Qur'an named Tafsir ibn Kathir which linked certain Hadith, or sayings of Muhammad, and sayings of the sahaba to verses of the Qur'an, in explanation. 

Tafsir Ibn Kathir is famous all over the Muslim world and among Muslims in the Western world, is one of the most widely used explanations of the Qu'ran today.
Ibn Kathir was renowned for his great memory regarding the sayings of Muhammad and the entire Qur'an. 

Ibn Kathir is known as a qadi,

Qadi (also known as Qazi, Kazi or Kadi) (Arabic: &#1602;&#1575;&#1590;&#1610; q&#257;&#7693;&#299;&#8206 is a judge ruling in accordance with the sharia, Islamic religious law. Because Islam makes no distinction between religious and secular domains, qadis traditionally have jurisdiction over all legal matters involving Muslims. The judgment of a qadi must be based on ijma, the prevailing consensus of the ulema, Islamic scholars.


 a master scholar of history, and a mufassir (Qur'an commentator). Ibn Kathir saw himself as a Shafi'i scholar. This is indicated by two of his books, one of which was Tabaqaat ah-Shafai'ah, or The Categories of the Followers of Imam Shafi.*

please provide  authority by which Kathir should be  rejected?
It is recommended by  the sites you  have be referring to recently.


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## Kalam (Nov 11, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> Kalam said:
> 
> 
> > Mr.Fitnah said:
> ...



Your point? Siddiqi, like me, realizes that mere disbelief does not equate to fasad. I provided every crime mentioned in conjunction with fasad in the Qur'an; I did not bother including _afsada_ or _fasada_ because they're different words from the same root. _Fasad_ is literally "corruption/violence"; you'll notice that most of the crimes described in such a manner by the Qur'an are physically destructive or violent. You are desperate to prove that every word in the Qur'an somehow translates into "disbelief." It's rather hilarious.


----------



## Mr.Fitnah (Nov 11, 2009)

Kalam said:


> Mr.Fitnah said:
> 
> 
> > Kalam said:
> ...


Do you think those smilies distracted from your lies and distortions?



Kalam said:


> Mr.Fitnah said:
> 
> 
> > http://www.imsa.us/index2.php?option=com_content&do_pdf=1&id=312



Al-Fasad appears when people follow their lusts and vain desires, when they try to twist the truth and distort the facts.
*Instead of following the Truth and the Guidance from their Lord and Creator, they ignore and turn away from His message.*

Dr. Muzammil H. Siddiqi

Whom you  use  to "prove your points"
http://www.usmessageboard.com/1700589-post1168.html



Kalam said:


> Mr.Fitnah said:
> 
> 
> > Ill stick  with the most widely accepted exegesis of the Quran known to mankind.
> ...


Of  course you cannot see the similarities,  because you must .
Willful blindness.


----------



## Kalam (Nov 11, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> Do you think those smilies distracted from your lies and distortions?


My posts are distortion-free, kimosabe. The emoticons are included to remind you that your posts are laughably ridiculous. 



Mr.Fitnah said:


> Al-Fasad appears when people follow their lusts and vain desires, when they try to twist the truth and distort the facts.
> 
> *Instead of following the Truth and the Guidance from their Lord and Creator, they ignore and turn away from His message.*


I'm sorry; Siddiqi describes "ignoring... His message" as a product of _fasad_, not as its definition. Time to brush up on the old reading comprehension, ey?



Mr.Fitnah said:


> Dr. Muzammil H. Siddiqi
> 
> Whom you  use  to "prove your points"


It may disappoint you to know that quoting a statement made my somebody does not imply that you're in complete lockstep with that person. 

In this case, however, I see nothing wrong with what he wrote.


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## Mr.Fitnah (Nov 11, 2009)

Seek help

Meaning of Mischief 





In his Tafsir, As-Suddi said that Ibn `Abbas and Ibn Mas`ud commented,


&#64831;&#1608;&#1614;&#1573;&#1616;&#1584;&#1614;&#1575; &#1602;&#1616;&#1610;&#1604;&#1614; &#1604;&#1614;&#1607;&#1615;&#1605;&#1618; &#1604;&#1575;&#1614; &#1578;&#1615;&#1601;&#1618;&#1587;&#1616;&#1583;&#1615;&#1608;&#1575;&#1618; &#1601;&#1616;&#1609; &#1575;&#1604;&#1571;&#1614;&#1585;&#1618;&#1590;&#1616; &#1602;&#1614;&#1575;&#1604;&#1615;&#1608;&#1575;&#1618; &#1573;&#1616;&#1606;&#1617;&#1614;&#1605;&#1614;&#1575; &#1606;&#1614;&#1581;&#1618;&#1606;&#1615; &#1605;&#1615;&#1589;&#1618;&#1604;&#1616;&#1581;&#1615;&#1608;&#1606;&#1614; &#64830;


(And when it is said to them: "Do not make mischief on the earth,'' they say: "We are only peacemakers.'') "They are the hypocrites. As for,


&#64831;&#1604;&#1575;&#1614; &#1578;&#1615;&#1601;&#1618;&#1587;&#1616;&#1583;&#1615;&#1608;&#1575;&#1618; &#1601;&#1616;&#1609; &#1575;&#1604;&#1571;&#1614;&#1585;&#1618;&#1590;&#1616;&#64830;


("Do not make mischief on the earth''), that is disbelief and acts of disobedience.'' Abu Ja`far said that Ar-Rabi` bin Anas said that Abu Al-`Aliyah said that Allah's statement,


&#64831;&#1608;&#1614;&#1573;&#1616;&#1584;&#1614;&#1575; &#1602;&#1616;&#1610;&#1604;&#1614; &#1604;&#1614;&#1607;&#1615;&#1605;&#1618; &#1604;&#1575;&#1614; &#1578;&#1615;&#1601;&#1618;&#1587;&#1616;&#1583;&#1615;&#1608;&#1575;&#1618; &#1601;&#1616;&#1609; &#1575;&#1604;&#1571;&#1614;&#1585;&#1618;&#1590;&#1616;&#64830;


(And when it is said to them: "Do not make mischief on the earth,''), means, "Do not commit acts of disobedience on the earth. Their mischief is disobeying Allah, because whoever disobeys Allah on the earth, or commands that Allah be disobeyed, he has committed mischief on the earth. Peace on both the earth and in the heavens is ensured (and earned) through obedience (to Allah).'' Ar-Rabi` bin Anas and Qatadah said similarly.


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## Kalam (Nov 11, 2009)

Having a mental malfunction?

Unfortunately, posting something over and over again does not add to its veracity. Your strategy isn't going to work out for you, I'm sorry to say. Now, how about proving -- using the Qur'an -- that mere disbelief is encompassed by _fasad_?


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## Mr.Fitnah (Nov 11, 2009)

Kalam said:


> Having a mental malfunction?
> 
> Unfortunately, posting something over and over again does not add to its veracity. Your strategy isn't going to work out for you, I'm sorry to say. Now, how about proving -- using the Qur'an -- that mere disbelief is encompassed by _fasad_?



Sorry, that  would be your strawman , I never made the claim.
The Tafsir  and the witness you  are trying to impeach Dr. Muzammil H. Siddiqi are in agreement. Al fasad "corruption" is the result of disobedience, disbelief is injustice and oppression. To some extent they  could overlap,
 Im not hanging my hat on that ,you are.

*The Qur'anic term for corruption is al-Fasad. It means spoiling the order, disturbing the balance of justice*** by greed, selfinterest,
deception and double talk. The Qur'an has used this word about 50 times. Al-Fasad could be in morals, in
values, in social system, in family system, in educational system, in economics, in politics or in human relations in
general.
Al-Fasad appears when people follow their lusts and vain desires, when they try to twist the truth and distort the facts.
Instead of following the Truth and the Guidance from their Lord and Creator, they ignore and turn away from His
message.*
Al fasad is almost as vague as Al fitnah.


*****
"*The unjust person is he who refuses to proclaim, `There is no God worthy of worship except Allah'.''*

Under Allah's statement:

[&#1608;&#1614;&#1602;&#1614;&#1600;&#1578;&#1616;&#1604;&#1615;&#1608;&#1607;&#1615;&#1605;&#1618; &#1581;&#1614;&#1578;&#1614;&#1617;&#1609; &#1604;&#1575;&#1614; &#1578;&#1614;&#1603;&#1615;&#1608;&#1606;&#1614; &#1601;&#1616;&#1578;&#1618;&#1606;&#1614;&#1577;&#1612;]

(And fight them until there is no more Fitnah) Al-Bukhari recorded that Nafi` said that two men came to Ibn `Umar during the conflict of Ibn Az-Zubayr and said to him, "The people have fallen into shortcomings and you are the son of `Umar and the Prophet's Companion. Hence, what prevents you from going out'' He said, "What prevents me is that Allah has for bidden shedding the blood of my (Muslim) brother.'' They said, *"Did not Allah say:

[&#1608;&#1614;&#1602;&#1614;&#1600;&#1578;&#1616;&#1604;&#1615;&#1608;&#1607;&#1615;&#1605;&#1618; &#1581;&#1614;&#1578;&#1614;&#1617;&#1609; &#1604;&#1575;&#1614; &#1578;&#1614;&#1603;&#1615;&#1608;&#1606;&#1614; &#1601;&#1616;&#1578;&#1618;&#1606;&#1614;&#1577;&#1612;]

(And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allah))'' He said, "We did fight until there was no more Fitnah and the religion became for Allah Alone. You want to fight until there is Fitnah and the religion becomes for other than Allah!''
*


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## Mr.Fitnah (Nov 11, 2009)

Is there an Arabic word for these oppressors ?

The Noble Quran's Search Results:

Seems there is little doubt as to the use of the word oppressor in  this verse.
In the Arabic  the  word is *Zâlimûn*
Polytheists and wrong-doers and unjust.

The Noble Quran's Search Results:

Apparently  the same arabic word is used to describe oppresors  in 2:193  and  2:254

Quraan Transliteration

*That means disbelief is oppresion*


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## Kalam (Nov 12, 2009)

Stuck on repeat? 
_
O you who believe, spend out of what We have given you before the day comes in which there is no bargaining, nor friendship, nor intercession. And the disbelievers -- they are the wrongdoers. Allah -- there is no god but He, the Ever-living, the Self-subsisting by Whom all subsist. Slumber overtakes Him not, nor sleep. To Him belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever is in the earth. Who is he that can intercede with Him but by His permission? He knows what is before them and what is behind them. And they encompass nothing of His knowledge except what He pleases. His knowledge extends over the heavens and the earth, and the preservation of them both tires Him not. And He is the Most High, the Great. There is no compulsion in religion -- the right way is indeed clearly distinct from error. So whoever disbelieves in the devil and believes in Allah, he indeed lays hold on the firmest handle which shall never break. And Allah is Hearing, Knowing. Allah is the Friend of those who believe -- He brings them out of darkness into light. And those who disbelieve, their friends are the devils who take them out of light into darkness. They are the companions of the Fire; therein they abide. _- 2:254-257​
The best tafsir is the Qur'an itself.


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## Kalam (Nov 12, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> Sorry, that  would be your strawman , I never made the claim.


My, my. You posted this false interpretation. Can I assume, then, that you no longer agree with it?



			
				Mr.Fitnah said:
			
		

> Their mischief is disobeying Allah, because whoever disobeys Allah on the earth, or commands that Allah be disobeyed, he has committed mischief on the earth.






Mr.Fitnah said:


> The Tafsir  and the witness you  are trying to impeach Dr. Muzammil H. Siddiqi are in agreement. Al fasad "corruption" is the result of disobedience, disbelief is injustice and oppression. To some extent they  could overlap,
> Im not hanging my hat on that ,you are.


The tafsir you cite equates _fasad_ to _kufr_. Siddiqi does nothing of the sort. He points out, correctly, that kufr is likely to result in _fasad_, not that it is tantamount to _fasad_. The Qur'an prescribes punishment only for those who have actually committed the crime. 



Mr.Fitnah said:


> Al fasad is almost as vague as Al fitnah.


The definitions are abundantly clear to anyone who does not attempt to ascribe false meanings to them. 

Edward William Lane's Arabic-English Lexicon FREE

To examine words as they're used in the Qur'an, simply refer to other passages in which they appear. It isn't particularly difficult.


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## Kalam (Nov 12, 2009)

_And fight in the way of Allah against those who fight against you but do not transgress. Surely Allah loves not the aggressors. And kill them wherever you find them, and drive them out of where they drove you out, and fitnah is worse than slaughter. And fight not with them at the Sacred Mosque until they fight with you in it; so if they fight you, slay them. Such is the recompense of the disbelievers. But if they desist, then surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful. And fight them until there is no persecution, and religion is only for Allah. But if they desist, then there should be no hostility except against the wrongdoers. The sacred month for the sacred month, and retaliation in sacred things. Whoever then acts aggressively against you, inflict injury on him according to the injury he has inflicted on you and keep your duty to Allah, and know that Allah is with those who keep their duty._ - 2:190-194​


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## Mr.Fitnah (Nov 12, 2009)

Kalam said:


> Mr.Fitnah said:
> 
> 
> > Sorry, that  would be your strawman , I never made the claim.
> ...


 The tafseer in totality 

Meaning of Mischief 





In his Tafsir, As-Suddi said that Ibn `Abbas and Ibn Mas`ud commented,


&#64831;&#1608;&#1614;&#1573;&#1616;&#1584;&#1614;&#1575; &#1602;&#1616;&#1610;&#1604;&#1614; &#1604;&#1614;&#1607;&#1615;&#1605;&#1618; &#1604;&#1575;&#1614; &#1578;&#1615;&#1601;&#1618;&#1587;&#1616;&#1583;&#1615;&#1608;&#1575;&#1618; &#1601;&#1616;&#1609; &#1575;&#1604;&#1571;&#1614;&#1585;&#1618;&#1590;&#1616; &#1602;&#1614;&#1575;&#1604;&#1615;&#1608;&#1575;&#1618; &#1573;&#1616;&#1606;&#1614;&#1617;&#1605;&#1614;&#1575; &#1606;&#1614;&#1581;&#1618;&#1606;&#1615; &#1605;&#1615;&#1589;&#1618;&#1604;&#1616;&#1581;&#1615;&#1608;&#1606;&#1614; &#64830;


(And when it is said to them: "Do not make mischief on the earth,'' they say: "We are only peacemakers.'') "They are the hypocrites. As for,


&#64831;&#1604;&#1575;&#1614; &#1578;&#1615;&#1601;&#1618;&#1587;&#1616;&#1583;&#1615;&#1608;&#1575;&#1618; &#1601;&#1616;&#1609; &#1575;&#1604;&#1571;&#1614;&#1585;&#1618;&#1590;&#1616;&#64830;


("Do not make mischief on the earth''), that is* disbelief and acts of disobedience.*'' Abu Ja`far said that Ar-Rabi` bin Anas said that Abu Al-`Aliyah said that Allah's statement,


&#64831;&#1608;&#1614;&#1573;&#1616;&#1584;&#1614;&#1575; &#1602;&#1616;&#1610;&#1604;&#1614; &#1604;&#1614;&#1607;&#1615;&#1605;&#1618; &#1604;&#1575;&#1614; &#1578;&#1615;&#1601;&#1618;&#1587;&#1616;&#1583;&#1615;&#1608;&#1575;&#1618; &#1601;&#1616;&#1609; &#1575;&#1604;&#1571;&#1614;&#1585;&#1618;&#1590;&#1616;&#64830;


(And when it is said to them: "Do not make mischief on the earth,''), means, "*Do not commit acts of disobedience on the earth. Their mischief is disobeying Allah, because whoever disobeys* Allah on the earth, or commands that Allah be disobeyed, he has committed mischief on the earth. Peace on both the earth and in the heavens is ensured (and earned) through obedience (to Allah).'' Ar-Rabi` bin Anas and Qatadah said similarly.



Kalam said:


> It may disappoint you to know that quoting a statement made my somebody does not imply that you're in complete lockstep with that person.
> 
> In this case, however, I see nothing wrong with what he wrote.


----------



## Kalam (Nov 12, 2009)

And what, exactly, does that change about what I posted?


----------



## mal (Nov 13, 2009)

Kalam said:


> But if they desist, then there should be no hostility except against the wrongdoers.



Define that Final Word...



peace...


----------



## Mr.Fitnah (Nov 13, 2009)

Kalam said:


> And what, exactly, does that change about what I posted?



It  doesn't, I dont wish to ever change what you say.

What I post, illuminates your ridicules  positions and flailing attempts to habilitate Ilsam .

*Al fasad*: Corruption, What happens when  one disobeys  allah
*Al Munkar*: all that Islam has forbidden
*Al fitnah*:Virtually anything a muslim doesnt like tempts or  frightens or makes a muslim uncomfortable  or allah doesnt like  *Munkar **Zulm **al fasad * *[URL="http://www.islam-qa.com/en/search2/kufr/AllWords/t,q,a"]kufar*[/URL]* etc.*

Of course you cannot see any connection or see how they are  all entrenched and intertwined in Islamic thought.

*This is the willful blindness on your part that makes your success as my tool  obvious, and your flailing  all the more pathetic, even I feel sorry for you .*


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## Kalam (Nov 14, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> Kalam said:
> 
> 
> > And what, exactly, does that change about what I posted?
> ...



Please don't make me part of your homosexual dominatrix fantasies. 

Your posting of invented definitions neither proves your point or disproves an argument I've made. You are welcome to attempt to do so; otherwise, I'd stop while I wasn't too far behind if I were you.


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## Kalam (Nov 14, 2009)

tha malcontent said:


> Kalam said:
> 
> 
> > But if they desist, then there should be no hostility except against the wrongdoers.
> ...



That's what I've been doing, numbnuts.


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## Mr.Fitnah (Nov 14, 2009)

Kalam said:


> Mr.Fitnah said:
> 
> 
> > Kalam said:
> ...



Your "arguments" disprove themselves upon submission, they evaporate under the strain of logical fallacies  and puerile evasion.
You cannot prove  that I do not present not an accurate interpretation of Islamic thought.
You cannot prove non muslims are innocent using Islamic scripture .

You can try to  cloud that issue with straw man augments and logical fallacies .

Many muslims like to say "Islam forbids the killing of innocent people"
Please prove unequivocally  that none muslims are innocent using Islamic scripture.


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## Mr.Fitnah (Nov 15, 2009)

Kalam said:


> tha malcontent said:
> 
> 
> > Kalam said:
> ...



Explain how it is not wrong to  disbelieve , and how it is not a violation of the "rights of allah"
using Islamic scripture.
6:21
Who doth greater wrong than he who inventeth a lie against Allah or denieth His revelations ? Lo! the wrongdoers will not be successful.
6:21
Who is more evil than one who lies about GOD, or rejects His revelations? The transgressors never succeed.


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## Kalam (Nov 17, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> Explain how it is not wrong to  disbelieve ,


It is wrong to disbelieve. Disbelief, however, is not a criminal offense. 



Mr.Fitnah said:


> and how it is not a violation of the "rights of allah"


"Rights of Allah (SWT)" is an improper phrase. Humankind's obligation to Allah (SWT) involves worshiping him; those who neglect their duty will answer to Him and Him alone.



Mr.Fitnah said:


> using Islamic scripture.
> 6:21



The oppressors described in 6:21 are those who prevent Muslims from freely practicing their religion.

_And they forbid (others) from it, and they keep away from it; and they ruin none but their own souls while they perceive not._ - 6:26​


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## Mr.Fitnah (Nov 17, 2009)

Kalam said:


> Mr.Fitnah said:
> 
> 
> > Explain how it is not wrong to  disbelieve ,
> ...


In your opinion, not in the opinion  of scholars .

2:193 And fight them until there is no persecution, and religion is professed only for ALLAH. But if they desist, then remember that no hostility is allowed except against the wrongdoers.

2:193 And fight with them until there is no persecution, and religion should be only for Allah, but if they desist, then there should be no hostility except against the oppressors.

2:193 And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for Allah. But if they desist, then let there be no hostility except against wrong-doers

2:193 You may also fight them to eliminate oppression, and to worship GOD freely. If they refrain, you shall not aggress; aggression is permitted only against the aggressors.

2:193 193. And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allâh) and (all and every kind of) worship is for Allâh (Alone).[] But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against Az-Zâlimûn (the polytheists, and wrong-doers, etc.)


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## Kalam (Nov 17, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> In your opinion, not in the opinion  of scholars .


IslamOnline.net- Islamic News, Shari'ah, Society, Family, Culture, Science, Youth, and Health
Ali Gomaa - Grand Mufti of Egypt
Supreme Council for Islamic Affairs

Take your pick. 



Mr.Fitnah said:


> 2:193 And fight them until there is no persecution, and religion is professed only for ALLAH. But if they desist, then remember that no hostility is allowed except against the wrongdoers.



_And fight in the way of Allah against those who fight against you but do not transgress. Surely Allah loves not the aggressors. And kill them wherever you find them, and drive them out of where they drove you out, and fitnah is worse than slaughter. And fight not with them at the Sacred Mosque until they fight with you in it; so if they fight you, slay them. Such is the recompense of the disbelievers. But if they desist, then surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful. And fight them until there is no persecution, and religion is only for Allah. But if they desist, then there should be no hostility except against the wrongdoers. The sacred month for the sacred month, and retaliation in sacred things. Whoever then acts aggressively against you, inflict injury on him according to the injury he has inflicted on you and keep your duty to Allah, and know that Allah is with those who keep their duty._ - 2:190-194​


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## Mr.Fitnah (Nov 17, 2009)

Kalam said:


> Mr.Fitnah said:
> 
> 
> > In your opinion, not in the opinion  of scholars .
> ...


You cant help  but to prove me right  with "every breath" you take here..
There is nothing in your links to support your position.


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## Kalam (Nov 17, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> _And fight in the way of Allah against those who fight against you but do not transgress. Surely Allah loves not the aggressors. And kill them wherever you find them, and drive them out of where they drove you out, and fitnah is worse than slaughter. And fight not with them at the Sacred Mosque until they fight with you in it; so if they fight you, slay them. Such is the recompense of the disbelievers. But if they desist, then surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful. And fight them until there is no persecution, and religion is only for Allah But if they desist, then there should be no hostility except against the wrongdoers. The sacred month for the sacred month, and retaliation in sacred things. *Whoever then acts aggressively against you, inflict injury on him according to the injury he has inflicted on you and keep your duty to Allah, and know that Allah is with those who keep their duty.*_ - 2:190-194​
> You cant help  but to prove me right  with "every breath" you take here..
> There is nothing in your links to support your position.



You are hopeless. As for the websites, were you able to find anything on them that described disbelief as a crime?


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## Mr.Fitnah (Nov 17, 2009)

Kalam said:


> Mr.Fitnah said:
> 
> 
> > _And fight in the way of Allah against those who fight against you but do not transgress. Surely Allah loves not the aggressors. And kill them wherever you find them, and drive them out of where they drove you out, and fitnah is worse than slaughter. And fight not with them at the Sacred Mosque until they fight with you in it; so if they fight you, slay them. Such is the recompense of the disbelievers. But if they desist, then surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful. And* fight them until there is no persecution, and religion is only for Allah* But if they desist, then there should be no hostility except against the wrongdoers. The sacred month for the sacred month, and retaliation in sacred things. *Whoever then acts aggressively against you, inflict injury on him according to the injury he has inflicted on you and keep your duty to Allah, and know that Allah is with those who keep their duty.*_ - 2:190-194​
> ...


The Quran does that nicely  enough thanks.

2:254. O you who believe! Spend of that with which We have provided for you, before a Day comes when there will be no bargaining, nor friendship, nor intercession. And it is the disbelievers who are the Zâlimûn (wrong-doers, etc.).


2:193 And fight them until there is no persecution, and religion is professed only for ALLAH. But if they desist, then remember that no hostility is allowed except against the wrongdoers.

2:193 And fight with them until there is no persecution, and religion should be only for Allah, but if they desist, then there should be no hostility except against the oppressors.

2:193 And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for Allah. But if they desist, then let there be no hostility except against wrong-doers

2:193 You may also fight them to eliminate oppression, and to worship GOD freely. If they refrain, you shall not aggress; aggression is permitted only against the aggressors.

2:193 193. And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allâh) and (all and every kind of) worship is for Allâh (Alone).[] But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against Az-Zâlimûn (the polytheists, and wrong-doers, etc.)



Is there an Arabic word for these oppressors ?

The Noble Quran's Search Results:

Seems there is little doubt as to the use of the word oppressor in  this verse.
In the Arabic  the  word is *Zâlimûn*
Polytheists and wrong-doers and unjust.

The Noble Quran's Search Results:

Apparently  the same arabic word is used to describe oppresors  in 2:193  and  2:254

Quraan Transliteration

*That means disbelief is oppresion*


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## Kalam (Nov 17, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> The Quran does that nicely  enough thanks.


You're the one who brought up scholars, Newton. 

I agree. That's why I posted your favorite passages in their proper contexts. 

And fight in the way of Allah against those who fight against you but do not transgress. Surely Allah loves not the aggressors. And kill them wherever you find them, and drive them out of where they drove you out, and fitnah is worse than slaughter. And fight not with them at the Sacred Mosque until they fight with you in it; so if they fight you, slay them. Such is the recompense of the disbelievers. But if they desist, then surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful. And fight them until there is no persecution, and religion is only for Allah. But if they desist, then there should be no hostility except against the wrongdoers. The sacred month for the sacred month, and retaliation in sacred things. Whoever then acts aggressively against you, inflict injury on him according to the injury he has inflicted on you and keep your duty to Allah, and know that Allah is with those who keep their duty. - 2:190-194

O you who believe, spend out of what We have given you before the day comes in which there is no bargaining, nor friendship, nor intercession. And the disbelievers -- they are the wrongdoers. Allah -- there is no god but He, the Ever-living, the Self-subsisting by Whom all subsist. Slumber overtakes Him not, nor sleep. To Him belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever is in the earth. Who is he that can intercede with Him but by His permission? He knows what is before them and what is behind them. And they encompass nothing of His knowledge except what He pleases. His knowledge extends over the heavens and the earth, and the preservation of them both tires Him not. And He is the Most High, the Great. There is no compulsion in religion -- the right way is indeed clearly distinct from error. So whoever disbelieves in the devil and believes in Allah, he indeed lays hold on the firmest handle which shall never break. And Allah is Hearing, Knowing. Allah is the Friend of those who believe -- He brings them out of darkness into light. And those who disbelieve, their friends are the devils who take them out of light into darkness. They are the companions of the Fire; therein they abide. - 2:54-256​


Mr.Fitnah said:


> That means disbelief is oppresion








Unfortunately for you, repeating a (misspelled) falsehood ad nauseam doesn't make it true.


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## Mr.Fitnah (Nov 17, 2009)

Kalam said:


> fight them until there is no persecution, and religion is only for Allah..



Misspelled or not it deserves repeating .
Your claim of falsehood ,refuted by your own posts.
there can be no peace  with Islam if one wishes to not be a muslim.


Is there an Arabic word for these oppressors ?

The Noble Quran's Search Results:

Seems there is little doubt as to the use of the word oppressor in  this verse.
In the Arabic  the  word is *Zâlimûn*
Polytheists and wrong-doers and unjust.

The Noble Quran's Search Results:

Apparently  the same arabic word is used to describe oppresors  in 2:193  and  2:254

Quraan Transliteration

*That means disbelief is oppression*


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## Mr.Fitnah (Nov 17, 2009)

Kalam said:


> fight them until there is no persecution, and religion is only for Allah..



Misspelled or not it deserves repeating .
Your claim of falsehood ,refuted by your own posts.
there can be no peace  with Islam if one wishes to not be a muslim.


Is there an Arabic word for these oppressors ?

The Noble Quran's Search Results:

Seems there is little doubt as to the use of the word oppressor in  this verse.
In the Arabic  the  word is *Zâlimûn*
Polytheists and wrong-doers and unjust.

The Noble Quran's Search Results:

Apparently  the same arabic word is used to describe oppresors  in 2:193  and  2:254

Quraan Transliteration

*That means disbelief is oppression*


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## Kalam (Nov 17, 2009)

Never mind that the passage specifically enjoins Muslims to attack those who have attacked them, or that it commands us to "inflict injury on him according to the injury he has inflicted on you," you've honed in on a belligerent-sounding sentence and by God you're sticking with it! Context be damned!


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## Mr.Fitnah (Nov 17, 2009)

Kalam said:


> Never mind that the passage specifically enjoins Muslims to attack those who have attacked them, or that it commands us to "inflict injury on him according to the injury he has inflicted on you," you've honed in on a belligerent-sounding sentence and by God you're sticking with it! Context be damned!


Seems there is more to it than just that.
And the order is repeated else ware ***
2:190. And fight in the Way of Allâh[] those who fight you, but transgress not the limits. Truly, Allâh likes not the transgressors. [This Verse is the first one that was revealed in connection with Jihâd, but it was supplemented by another (V.9:36)].

2:191. And kill them wherever you find them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out. And Al-Fitnah[] is worse than killing. And fight not with them at Al-Masjid-al-Harâm (the sanctuary at Makkah),[] unless they (first) fight you there. But if they attack you, then kill them. Such is the recompense of the disbelievers.

2:192. But if they cease, then Allâh is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.

193. And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allâh) and (all and every kind of) worship is for Allâh (Alone).[] But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against Az-Zâlimûn (the polytheists, and wrong-doers, etc.)

2:194. The sacred month is for the sacred month, and for the prohibited things, there is the Law of Equality (Qisâs). Then whoever transgresses the prohibition against you, you transgress likewise against him. And fear Allâh, and know that Allâh is with Al-Muttaqûn (the pious - see V.2:2) .

195. And spend in the Cause of Allâh (i.e. Jihâd of all kinds, etc.) and do not throw yourselves into destruction (by not spending your wealth in the Cause of Allâh), and do good. Truly, Allâh loves Al-Muhsinûn[] (the good-doers).


***
8:39

And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and polytheism: i.e. worshipping others besides Allâh) and the religion (worship) will all be for Allâh Alone [in the whole of the world[]]. But if they cease (worshipping others besides Allâh), then certainly, Allâh is All-Seer of what they do 
2:193.  
And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allâh) and (all and every kind of) worship is for Allâh (Alone).[] But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against Az-Zâlimûn (the polytheists, and wrong-doers, etc193

http://www.ummah.com/what-is-islam/quran/noble/

Tafsir.com Tafsir Ibn Kathir

Tafsir.com Tafsir Ibn Kathir

Tafsir.com Tafsir Ibn Kathir


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## Kalam (Nov 17, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> Seems there is more to it than just that.


No, not really.



Mr.Fitnah said:


> And the order is repeated else ware ***


And the limits are reiterated:

_Surely the vilest of beasts in Allahs sight are those who disbelieve, then they would not believe. *Those with whom thou makest an agreement, then they break their agreement every time, and they keep not their duty.* So if thou overtake them in war, scatter by them those who are behind them, that they may be mindful. *And if thou fear treachery on the part of a people, throw back to them (their treaty) on terms of equality.* Surely Allah loves not the treacherous. And let not those who disbelieve think that they can outstrip. Surely they cannot escape. And make ready for them whatever force you can and horses tied at the frontier, to frighten thereby the enemy of Allah and your enemy and others besides them, whom you know not -- Allah knows them. And whatever you spend in Allahs way, it will be paid back to you fully and you will not be wronged. *And if they incline to peace, include thou also to it, and trust in Allah.* Surely he is the Hearer, the Knower. And if they intend to deceive thee, then surely Allah is sufficient for thee. He it is Who strengthened thee with His help and with the believers, and He has united their hearts. If thou hadst spent all that is in the earth, thou couldst not have united their hearts, but Allah united them. Surely he is Mighty, Wise._ - 8:55-63​


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## Mr.Fitnah (Nov 17, 2009)

Thanks


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## Mr.Fitnah (Nov 17, 2009)

Many muslims like to say " Islam forbids the killing of innocent people"
Please provide Islamic scripture to prove unequivocally non muslims are innocent.


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## PixieStix (Nov 18, 2009)

Kalam said:


> Mr.Fitnah said:
> 
> 
> > Seems there is more to it than just that.
> ...


 

In other words, making an oath to uphold and defend the constitution and even making an oath to any kafr means nothing because the oath to Allah supercedes all other oaths


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## PixieStix (Nov 18, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> Thanks


 

Yep


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## Kalam (Nov 18, 2009)

PixieStix said:


> Kalam said:
> 
> 
> > Mr.Fitnah said:
> ...



Reading comprehension FTW.


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## Kalam (Nov 18, 2009)

Concessions accepted.


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## Mr.Fitnah (Nov 18, 2009)

Kalam said:


> Concessions accepted.



You see things  in the Quran and on internet chat forums that are not there.

Many muslims like to say " Islam forbids the killing of innocent people"
Please provide Islamic scripture to prove unequivocally non muslims are innocent.


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## Kalam (Nov 18, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> You see things  in the Quran and on internet chat forums that are not there.



I posted passages taken directly from the Qur'an.


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## Mr.Fitnah (Nov 18, 2009)

Kalam said:


> Mr.Fitnah said:
> 
> 
> > You see things  in the Quran and on internet chat forums that are not there.
> ...



You threw  spaghetti at the wall to see if  anything stuck. It didnt.


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## Kalam (Nov 18, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> Kalam said:
> 
> 
> > Mr.Fitnah said:
> ...


I'm sorry that you take issue with the Qur'anic passages I posted. Keeping in mind that you've been unable to do anything recently apart from cutting and pasting from a Takfiri author's website and posting platitudinous one-liners, I'm assuming that you're no longer interested in attempting to defend your position.


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## Mr.Fitnah (Nov 18, 2009)

I dont have a position .
Im asking for proof, you  have be unable to provide any.


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## Mr.Fitnah (Nov 18, 2009)

Many muslims like to say " Islam forbids the killing of innocent people"
Please provide Islamic scripture to prove unequivocally non muslims are innocent.


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## Kalam (Nov 18, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> I dont have a position .
> Im asking for proof, you  have be unable to provide any.



No proof will be sufficient for you because you've already convinced yourself that you're correct. It's sufficient for the majority of Muslims and most non-Muslims who are at least somewhat familiar with Islam. Your idiotic sycophants, of course, do not care about evidence at all. They'll simply toe your line.


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## Mr.Fitnah (Nov 18, 2009)

Kalam said:


> Mr.Fitnah said:
> 
> 
> > I dont have a position .
> ...



Proof requires something more than what you can provide.
Proof looks like legal reasoning and scripture  that abrogates these Quranic orders 

8:39

And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and polytheism: i.e. worshipping others besides Allâh) and the religion (worship) will all be for Allâh Alone [in the whole of the world[]]. But if they cease (worshipping others besides Allâh), then certainly, Allâh is All-Seer of what they do 
2:193.  
And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allâh) and (all and every kind of) worship is for Allâh (Alone).[] But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against Az-Zâlimûn (the polytheists, and wrong-doers, etc193

http://www.ummah.com/what-is-islam/quran/noble/

Tafsir.com Tafsir Ibn Kathir

Tafsir.com Tafsir Ibn Kathir

Tafsir.com Tafsir Ibn Kathir


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## Mr.Fitnah (Nov 18, 2009)

Proof looks like scripture that abrogates this

&#8220;And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and polytheism, i.e. worshipping others besides Allaah), and the religion (worship) will all be for Allaah Alone [in the whole of the world]&#8221;

[al-Anfaal 8:39] 

&#8220;Then when the Sacred Months (the 1st, 7th, 11th, and 12th months of the Islamic calendar) have passed, then kill the Mushrikoon (see V.2:105) wherever you find them, and capture them and besiege them, and lie in wait for them in each and every ambush. But if they repent [by rejecting Shirk (polytheism) and accept Islamic Monotheism] and perform As-Salaah (Iqaamat-as-Salaah), and give Zakaah, then leave their way free. Verily, Allaah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful&#8221;

[al-Tawbah 9:5] 

This verse is known as Ayat al-Sayf (the verse of the sword). 

These and similar verses abrogate the verses which say that there is no compulsion to become Muslim. 

Islam Question and Answer - There is no compulsion to accept Islam


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## Mr.Fitnah (Nov 18, 2009)

Proof looks like scripture that abrogates this

And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and polytheism, i.e. worshipping others besides Allaah), and the religion (worship) will all be for Allaah Alone [in the whole of the world]

[al-Anfaal 8:39] 

Then when the Sacred Months (the 1st, 7th, 11th, and 12th months of the Islamic calendar) have passed, then kill the Mushrikoon (see V.2:105) wherever you find them, and capture them and besiege them, and lie in wait for them in each and every ambush. But if they repent [by rejecting Shirk (polytheism) and accept Islamic Monotheism] and perform As-Salaah (Iqaamat-as-Salaah), and give Zakaah, then leave their way free. Verily, Allaah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful

[al-Tawbah 9:5] 

This verse is known as Ayat al-Sayf (the verse of the sword). 

These and similar verses abrogate the verses which say that there is no compulsion to become Muslim. 

Islam Question and Answer - There is no compulsion to accept Islam


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## Kalam (Nov 18, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> Proof requires something more than what you can provide.


Proof, to you, entails something more than anybody can provide. More than I can provide, more than Islam's most eminent scholars can prove... 

You're ridiculous.



Mr.Fitnah said:


> Proof looks like legal reasoning and scripture  that abrogates these Quranic orders


No part of the Qur'an has been abrogated. 

http://www.usmessageboard.com/1635827-post135.html



Mr.Fitnah said:


> 8:39
> 2:193



Dealt with already. Time for a new argument.


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## Kalam (Nov 18, 2009)

Kalam said:
			
		

> Mr.Fitnah said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



___


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## Mr.Fitnah (Nov 18, 2009)

>



Sorry jack ,come back when your opinion is taught at any school let  alone Oxford .
As it stands their are  about 1 persons on earth who agree with you.





Naskh is the pivot point for your Islam not for me.
Nothing abrogates these  unequivocal commands 

8:39

And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and polytheism: i.e. worshipping others besides Allâh) and the religion (worship) will all be for Allâh Alone [in the whole of the world[]]. But if they cease (worshipping others besides Allâh), then certainly, Allâh is All-Seer of what they do 
2:193.  
And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allâh) and (all and every kind of) worship is for Allâh (Alone).[] But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against Az-Zâlimûn (the polytheists, and wrong-doers, etc193

http://www.ummah.com/what-is-islam/quran/noble/

Tafsir.com Tafsir Ibn Kathir

Tafsir.com Tafsir Ibn Kathir

Tafsir.com Tafsir Ibn Kathir
Seems you are  unable to prove non muslims are innocent according to Islamic scripture, That is to bad.


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## Kalam (Nov 18, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> Sorry jack ,come back when your opinion is taught at any school let  alone Oxford .
> As it stands their are  about 1 persons on earth who agree with you.



Now _that's_ a concession if I've ever seen one. 

Come back when you're prepared to address my argument. Your ignorance of Islamic history and theological development is positively glaring.

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/appeal-to-popularity.html


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## Mr.Fitnah (Nov 18, 2009)

Kalam said:


> Mr.Fitnah said:
> 
> 
> > Sorry jack ,come back when your opinion is taught at any school let  alone Oxford .
> ...



Im sorry that is not  proof, anymore than the rest of the gibberish and deceptions you post  are.
Im not appealing to authority.
 Im saying  what you post is obvious bullshit, meant to deceive .


Many muslims like to say " Islam forbids the killing of innocent people"
Please provide Islamic scripture to prove unequivocally non muslims are innocent.


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## Kalam (Nov 18, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> Im sorry that is not  proof, anymore than the rest of the gibberish and deceptions you post  are.
> Im not appealing to authority.
> Im saying  what you post is obvious bullshit, meant to deceive .



You've found yourself unable to disprove what I've posted, so you've resorted to tossing out baseless accusations of dishonesty. That's a recourse that seems to be popular among people who find themselves unable to respond to their opponents' arguments substantively. I highly doubt you'll actually be able to address my post, so I wonder if you'll concede, jump ship silently, or persist in your lunacy? My money's on the third. 

Please demonstrate that my post is dishonest or inaccurate.


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## Mr.Fitnah (Nov 18, 2009)

Let me be clear.
The links you post   never prove what you want to prove,
 the scholars you refer to are modern day bullshitters lying deliberately to  paint a false image of Islam.
You can never prove " non Muslims are innocent" according to Islamic scripture.


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## Mr.Fitnah (Nov 18, 2009)

Let me be clear.
The links you post   never prove what you want to prove,
 the scholars you refer to are modern day bullshitters lying deliberately to  paint a false image of Islam.
You can never prove " non Muslims are innocent" according to Islamic scripture.


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## Mr.Fitnah (Nov 18, 2009)

Kalam said:


> Mr.Fitnah said:
> 
> 
> > Im sorry that is not  proof, anymore than the rest of the gibberish and deceptions you post  are.
> ...


It is the third ,
it is  irrelevant, having nothing to do with  what I posted ,  just shit  thrown at the wall.


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## Kalam (Nov 18, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> Kalam said:
> 
> 
> > Mr.Fitnah said:
> ...




Your entire argument is contingent on the existence of internal abrogation. Therefore, it behooves you to either disprove my argument or accept it.


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## Kalam (Nov 19, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> It is the third



And thank you for affirming that what you post is lunacy. Baby steps...


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## Mr.Fitnah (Nov 19, 2009)

Kalam said:


> Mr.Fitnah said:
> 
> 
> > Kalam said:
> ...


Your agrument is  based on ignoring  what is common knowledge .
I present mainstream traditional Islamic thought .


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## Mr.Fitnah (Nov 19, 2009)

Kalam said:


> Kalam said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It is  rather  obvious that  2:106 is referring specifically to the Quran, based on 2:108

002.106 
YUSUFALI*: None of Our revelations do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten*, but We substitute something better or similar: Knowest thou not that Allah Hath power over all things? 
PICKTHAL: *Nothing of our revelation (even a single verse) do we abrogate or cause be forgotten*, but we bring (in place) one better or the like thereof. Knowest thou not that Allah is Able to do all things? 
SHAKIR: *Whatever communications We abrogate or cause to be forgotten*, We bring one better than it or like it. Do you not know that Allah has power over all things?

002.107 
YUSUFALI: Knowest thou not that to Allah belongeth the dominion of the heavens and the earth? And besides Him ye have neither patron nor helper. 
PICKTHAL: Knowest thou not that it is Allah unto Whom belongeth the Sovereignty of the heavens and the earth; and ye have not, beside Allah, any guardian or helper? 
SHAKIR: Do you not know that Allah's is the kingdom of the heavens and the earth, and that besides Allah you have no guardian or helper?

002.108 
YUSUFALI:* Would ye question your Messenger as Moses was questioned of old?* but whoever changeth from Faith to Unbelief, Hath strayed without doubt from the even way. 
PICKTHAL: *Or would ye question your messenger as Moses was questioned aforetime?* He who chooseth disbelief instead of faith, verily he hath gone astray from a plain road. 
SHAKIR: *Rather you wish to put questions to your Messenger, as Musa was questioned before*; and whoever adopts unbelief instead of faith, he indeed has lost the right direction of the way.

The Noble Quran : Surat 2
Muhammad is talking to muslims  about  the Quran.

106. Whatever a Verse (revelation) do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, We bring a better one or similar to it. Know you not that Allâh is able to do all things?

107. Know you not that it is Allâh to Whom belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth? And besides Allâh you have neither any Walî (protector or guardian) nor any helper.

108. Or do you want to ask your Messenger (Muhammad Peace be upon him ) as Mûsa (Moses) was asked before (i.e. show us openly our Lord?) And he who changes Faith for disbelief, verily, he has gone astray from the right way.


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## Mr.Fitnah (Nov 19, 2009)

Many muslims like to say " Islam forbids the killing of innocent people"
Please provide Islamic scripture to prove unequivocally non muslims are innocent.


----------



## Mr.Fitnah (Nov 19, 2009)

Many muslims like to say " Islam forbids the killing of innocent people"
Please provide Islamic scripture to prove unequivocally non muslims are innocent.


----------



## Mr.Fitnah (Nov 19, 2009)

Kalam said:


> Mr.Fitnah said:
> 
> 
> > Proof requires something more than what you can provide.
> ...



So statements like  " Islam forbids the killing of innocent people" are simply lies  to quell the fears are concerns on future victims of Islamic supremacy ideology and jihad.

More information is provided by William Muir's "Life of Mahomet", Volume I, footnote 88:

The common Moslem belief is that it is allowable to tell a falsehood on four occasions:
1st, to save one's life;
2nd, to effect a peace or reconciliation;
3rd, to persuade a woman;
4th, on the occasion of a journey or expedition.

To save one's life

The first is borne out by Mahomet's express sanction. Ammar ibn Yasir was sorely persecuted by the pagans of Mecca, and denied the faith for his deliverance. The Prophet approved of his conduct: - "If they do this again, then repeat the same recantation to them again." Katib al Wackidi; p. 227 ½. Another tradition preserved in the family of Yasir, is as follows: - "The idolators seized Ammar, and they let him not go until he had abused Mahomet and spoken well of their gods. He then repaired to the Prophet, who asked of him what had happened." - "Evil, oh Prophet of the Lord! I was not let go until I had abused thee, and spoken well of their gods." - "But how," replied Mahomet, "dost thou find thine own heart?" - "Secure and steadfast in the faith." - "Then," said Mahomet, "if they repeat the same, do thou too repeat the same." Ibid. Mahomet also said that Ammar's lie was better than Abu Jahl's truth.
To effect a peace or reconciliation

The second is directly sanctioned by the following tradition:- "That person is not a liar who makes peace between two people, and speaks good words to do away their quarrel, although they should be lies. Mishcat, vol ii. p.427.
To persuade a woman

As to the third, we have a melancholy instance that Mahomet did not think it wrong to make false promises to his wives, in the matter of Mary his Egyptian maid.
[This article provides more information on this incident.]

On the occasion of a journey or expedition

And regarding the fourth, it was his constant habit in projecting expeditions (excepting only that to Tabuk) to conceal his intentions, and to give out that he was about to proceed in another direction from the true one. Hishami, p. 392; Katib al Wackidi, p. 133 ½.


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## Kalam (Nov 19, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> It is  rather  obvious that  2:106 is referring specifically to the Quran, based on 2:108


Not really. 

_Rather you wish to put questions to your Messenger, as Moses was questioned before. And whoever adopts disbelief instead of faith he indeed has lost the right direction of the way_.​The reference is to those who don't believe that the Qur'an abrogates previous scriptures. If you were familiar with the Qur'an, you'd know that the use of the words "your Messenger" does not mean that the passage in question is directed at Muslims, as Muhammad (SAWS) was everybody's messenger.

_Whatever good befalls thee, it is from Allah, and whatever misfortune befalls thee, it is from thyself. And We have sent thee to mankind as a Messenger. And Allah is sufficient as a witness._ - 4:79

_O mankind, the Messenger has indeed come to you with truth from your Lord, so believe, it is better for you. And if you disbelieve, then surely to Allah belongs whatever is in the heavens and the earth. And Allah is ever Knowing, Wise._ - 4:170

_Say: O mankind, surely I am the Messenger of Allah to you all, of Him, Whose is the kingdom of the heavens and the earth. There is no god but He; He gives life and causes death. So believe in Allah and His Messenger, the Ummi Prophet who believes in Allah and His words, and follow him so that you may be guided aright. _- 7:158

_And We have not sent thee but as a bearer of good news and as a warner to all mankind, but most men know not._ - 34:28​
I'm sorry; my post concerning abrogation stands.


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## Kalam (Nov 19, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> So statements like  " Islam forbids the killing of innocent people" are simply lies  to quell the fears are concerns on future victims of Islamic supremacy ideology and jihad.




_That_ explains why nearly all of the website's traffic and questions come from the Islamic world. Clearly, millions of Muslims from around the world are involved in an elaborate scheme to trick the kafiruun into living under Sharia. You're not letting them get _you_, though. 






Accusations of dishonesty are typically accompanied by incontrovertible proof of the party in question being dishonest. Please prove that Shaykhs Yusuf Qaradawi and Ali Gomaa are purposefully presenting a misleading image of Islam in order to lure non-Muslims into a false sense of security, you silly motherfucker.


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## Mr.Fitnah (Nov 19, 2009)

Kalam said:


> Mr.Fitnah said:
> 
> 
> > It is  rather  obvious that  2:106 is referring specifically to the Quran, based on 2:108
> ...


It stands  as representing your and a small cult of heretics  opinion on the matter, not  the opinion of the traditional interpretation of Islam of which yours is not part of.


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## Mr.Fitnah (Nov 19, 2009)

Kalam said:


> Mr.Fitnah said:
> 
> 
> > So statements like  " Islam forbids the killing of innocent people" are simply lies  to quell the fears are concerns on future victims of Islamic supremacy ideology and jihad.
> ...



Perhaps  you  will be good enough to explain using Islamic scripture how it would be best if sharia law were not  the law all around the world.
How it is best is man judge by  man made laws and not "allahs "law.


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## Kalam (Nov 19, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> It stands  as representing your and a small cult of heretics  opinion on the matter



Logical Fallacy: Argumentum ad Hominem

If the argument was not logical and sound, you would have refuted it by now. Thanks...


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## Kalam (Nov 19, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> Perhaps  you  will be good enough to explain using Islamic scripture how it would be best if sharia law were not  the law all around the world.
> How it is best is man judge by  man made laws and not "allahs "law.



Why would I want to do that? Islam is the ideal system for all people. True belief does not result from compulsion -- forced "conversions" will not produce an ideal Islamic society, they'll produce a society of munafiquun. People must choose to embrace Islam. 

_And obey Allah and obey the Messenger and be cautious. But if you turn back then know that the duty of Our Messenger is only a clear deliverance of the message. _- 5:92​


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## Mr.Fitnah (Nov 19, 2009)

Kalam said:


> Mr.Fitnah said:
> 
> 
> > It stands  as representing your and a small cult of heretics  opinion on the matter
> ...


There is nothing to refute, you lost  the argument s 900 years ago.


We have already proven your cults beliefs are not traditional .
We did so using your own sources .

According to your sig link  website it is not Mu'tazilis

 By the end of the ninth century, Mu'tazilis were subjected to vehement attacks from the right (the traditionalists) and from the left (the atheists, deists, philosophers, non-Muslim thinkers, etc.)


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## Kalam (Nov 19, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> Kalam said:
> 
> 
> > Mr.Fitnah said:
> ...




*ahem*

Logical Fallacy: Argumentum ad Hominem

If the argument was not logical and sound, you would have refuted it by now. Thanks...


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## Mr.Fitnah (Nov 19, 2009)

Kalam said:


> Mr.Fitnah said:
> 
> 
> > Kalam said:
> ...



There is nothing to refute, you lost the argument  900 years ago.
If your Islam were the true Islam it would be  what is known as Islam today.
It isnt very few even know about your dead cult.
You just use it a lever to present a false image of Islam it is your cardboard sword.


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## Kalam (Nov 19, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> There is nothing to refute, you lost the argument s 900 years ago.



You have attempted to make logically fallacious arguments by appealing to the majority and using ad hominem attacks. The post was written by me; it is non-sectarian. As I said, if it wasn't both valid and sound, you would have refuted it by now.


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## Mr.Fitnah (Nov 19, 2009)

Kalam said:


> Mr.Fitnah said:
> 
> 
> > There is nothing to refute, you lost the argument s 900 years ago.
> ...


Im sorry  you have mistaken recognizing historical facts,as personal attacks.
I apologize.
What you post is your opinion ,It is unsupported   by  any type of mainstream Islamic thought .
 It has less intellectual weight than even my posts.
I can at least link to  traditional  recognized  scholars to back up my opinion , you have to  lean on untrusted sources.


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## Kalam (Nov 19, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> It has less intellectual weight than even my posts.






Mr.Fitnah said:


> I can at least link to  traditional  recognized  scholars to back up my opinion , you have to  lean on untrusted sources.







"Untrusted sources."

Al-Suyuti
Shah Wali Ullah [1703-1762]
Abul Ala Maududi

Please, continue to spout ignorance. Continue to avoid addressing my argument. It only benefits me.


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## Mr.Fitnah (Nov 19, 2009)

Kalam said:


> Mr.Fitnah said:
> 
> 
> > It has less intellectual weight than even my posts.
> ...



Please, what is your argument  and how does it prove non muslims are innocent?


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## Kalam (Nov 19, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> Kalam said:
> 
> 
> > Mr.Fitnah said:
> ...



The current discussion pertains to abrogation. I'm confident that you're capable of going back a page or two and finding the post yourself.


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## Mr.Fitnah (Nov 19, 2009)

Kalam said:


> Mr.Fitnah said:
> 
> 
> > Kalam said:
> ...



The abrogation discussion has been concluded 



Kalam said:


> Mr.Fitnah said:
> 
> 
> > Kalam said:
> ...



http://www.usmessageboard.com/1628053-post118.html


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## Kalam (Nov 19, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> The abrogation discussion has been concluded


FFS, address the argument or admit that you can't. Quit being a pussy.


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## Mr.Fitnah (Nov 19, 2009)

Kalam said:


> Mr.Fitnah said:
> 
> 
> > The abrogation discussion has been concluded
> ...


Argumentum ad hominem, You present an argument that is is simply  not traditional Islam ,a heretical view  a deliberate  distraction . To follow it requires a degree of brain damage  that it  beyond the pale of reason .
If what you believed were even worth a foot note it would be noted .
every traditional  interpretation  is in agreement  with accept ion of yours, yours is a contrived  interpretation to promote a lie, What is known as" retcon" retroactive continuity  That is all.


You want to be right ?
 Get  the universities to agree with you.


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## Mr.Fitnah (Nov 19, 2009)

What you miss "kalam " I want you to be right, you just have to be able to prove that you are right .
So far...  nothing.


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## Mr.Fitnah (Nov 19, 2009)

What you miss "kalam " I want you to be right, you just have to be able to prove that you are right .
So far...  nothing.


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## Kalam (Nov 19, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> Kalam said:
> 
> 
> > Mr.Fitnah said:
> ...



You fail to grasp even the most basic aspects of logic. Whether or not an argument is correct is determined by its validity and soundness. You have done nothing in the way of addressing the substance of my post. You dodge and lamely call my posts "lies" without disproving them. Once again, address the argument. Quit being a pussy.


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## Kalam (Nov 19, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> What you miss "kalam " I want you to be right, you just have to be able to prove that you are right .
> So far...  nothing.



Blow it out your ass, liar.


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## Mr.Fitnah (Nov 19, 2009)

Your "arguments" are illogical from the beginning period.
The are unfounded  and irrational , It is beyond the pale of reason to attach validity to an obvious lie.

I'm sorry logic  cannot be extended to that point.


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## Mr.Fitnah (Nov 19, 2009)

kalam said:


> mr.fitnah said:
> 
> 
> > what you miss "kalam " i want you to be right, you just have to be able to prove that you are right .
> ...


qfp


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## Kalam (Nov 19, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> Your "arguments" are illogical from the beginning period.


Please prove that the argument is illogical.



Mr.Fitnah said:


> The are unfounded  and irrational


Please prove that the argument is unfounded and irrational.


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## Mr.Fitnah (Nov 19, 2009)

Kalam said:


> Mr.Fitnah said:
> 
> 
> > What you miss "kalam " I want you to be right, you just have to be able to prove that you are right .
> ...



I'm sorry that is not proof,
Please provide ,unequivocal proof non muslims are innocent according to islamic scripture.


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## Mr.Fitnah (Nov 19, 2009)

Kalam said:


> Mr.Fitnah said:
> 
> 
> > Your "arguments" are illogical from the beginning period.
> ...



We will no get involveled in  disproving the illogic of lies or how they are irrational .

Your interpretation of Islam is considered heretical , that will do.
That you had to change you  signature link will suffice.
We will not indulge in distractions diversions and  nonsense . 

We will not play along,


* this thread is for proving non Muslims are innocent according  to islamic scripture.
PERIOD* 

Many muslims like to say " Islam forbids  the killing of innocent people "


Have you heard that?

Now ,Please prove non muslims are innocent according to Islamic scripture.

If it is true just do it.


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## Mr.Fitnah (Nov 19, 2009)

*Now*


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## Mr.Fitnah (Nov 19, 2009)

Kalam said:


> Mr.Fitnah said:
> 
> 
> > Perhaps  you  will be good enough to explain using Islamic scripture how it would be best if sharia law were not  the law all around the world.
> ...




91. Shaitân (Satan) wants only to excite enmity and hatred between you with intoxicants (alcoholic drinks) and gambling, and hinder you from the remembrance of Allâh and from As-Salât (the prayer). So, will you not then abstain?

92. And obey Allâh and the Messenger (Muhammad SAW), and beware (of even coming near to drinking or gambling or Al Ansâb, or Al Azlâm, etc.) and fear Allâh. Then if you turn away, you should know that it is Our Messenger's duty to convey (the Message) in the clearest way.

WHAT IS THE MESSAGE?

8:39

And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and polytheism: i.e. worshipping others besides Allâh) and the religion (worship) will all be for Allâh Alone [in the whole of the world[]]. But if they cease (worshipping others besides Allâh), then certainly, Allâh is All-Seer of what they do 
2:193.  
And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allâh) and (all and every kind of) worship is for Allâh (Alone).[] But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against Az-Zâlimûn (the polytheists, and wrong-doers, etc193

http://www.ummah.com/what-is-islam/quran/noble/

Tafsir.com Tafsir Ibn Kathir

Tafsir.com Tafsir Ibn Kathir

Tafsir.com Tafsir Ibn Kathir[/QUOTE]


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## Kalam (Nov 20, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> Kalam said:
> 
> 
> > Mr.Fitnah said:
> ...



Your argument is contingent on the legitimacy of internal abrogation, and you refuse to disprove an argument that refutes abrogation. Your concession has been accepted; thank you.


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## Kalam (Nov 20, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> *Now*



Diaper rash acting up?


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## Kalam (Nov 20, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> WHAT IS THE MESSAGE?
> 
> 8:39



Bid'ah-free:

_And fight with them until there is no more persecution, and the religion is for Allah. But if they desist, then surely Allah is Seer of what they do._ (39-40)

...

_And if they incline to peace, include thou also to it, and trust in Allah. Surely he is the Hearer, the Knower. _(61)​


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## Mr.Fitnah (Nov 21, 2009)

Kalam said:


> Mr.Fitnah said:
> 
> 
> > Kalam said:
> ...


You just crazy as hell jack.


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## Mr.Fitnah (Nov 21, 2009)

Kalam said:


> Mr.Fitnah said:
> 
> 
> > WHAT IS THE MESSAGE?
> ...



Get a better quran.


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## Douger (Nov 21, 2009)

Islam forbids not giving your percentage of what you earn to them like every other brainwashing scam created by mankind.


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## Mr.Fitnah (Nov 21, 2009)

Kalam said:


> Mr.Fitnah said:
> 
> 
> > It has less intellectual weight than even my posts.
> ...


Al-Suyuti
Fight those who don't believe in God nor in the Last Day [Unless they believe in the Prophet God bless him and grant him peace] nor hold what is forbidden that which God and His emissary have forbidden [e.g. Wine] nor embrace the true faith [which is firm and abrogates other faiths, i.e., the Islamic religion] from among [for distinguishing] those who were given the Book [i.e., the Jews and Christians] until they give the head-tax [i.e., the annual taxes imposed on them] (l'an yadinl) humbly submissive, and obedient to Islam's rule.
Shah Wali Ullah
Shah Waliullah (1703-1762) was a great Muslim thinker of his time. Claiming his lineage from Quraysh tribe of Prophet Mohammad and the second Caliph Umar, he stressed upon the need of unity in Muslim community against the political rise of Marathas, Jats and Sikhs. Upset with the political disorder and fading glory of Muslim power he reminded the contemporary Muslim rulers of their holy duty of Jihad and raised the slogan that Islam is in danger. Although he was in agreement with his contemporary Mohammad Wahhab, his ideology was more a political strategy against the rising power of Hindus led by Marathas, Jats and Sikhs than against the Sufi-tomb worship and Shias. He supported the uncompromising Islamic thought of Wahhab for strict compliance of the custom and practices of the Prophet but he floated a theory of rational evaluation of Islam which was nothing but a sugar-coated version of Islamic fundamentalism. He is therefore known as a great Islamic strategist for the political power of Islam. At his invitation Ahmad Shah Durrani a ruling warlord of Afghanistan launched Jihad in Delhi in 1760 and defeated the Marathas in the third battle of Panipat. Highly regarded as a vibrant political Islamist among the Muslim community of South Asia, Shah Wali Ullah is also known as one of the ideological co-fathers of all the Islamist movements including Deoband, Aligarh, Muslim League, Jammaat-e-Ulema-e-Hind, Tabligh Jamaat, Jamaat-e-Islami and Taliban. Like Shah Wali Ullah who regarded the rise of the political power of Hindus a danger to Islam, Taliban is not only against the rise of Crusaders, Jews and the Hindus but also against the Muslim powers not following the custom and practices of the Prophet Era.

Abul Ala Maududi
Jamaat-e-Islami [1] (Urdu: &#1580;&#1605;&#1575;&#1593;&#1578;&#1616; &#1575;&#1587;&#1604;&#1575;&#1605;&#1740;, Jamaat-i-Islami, "Islamic Block" Jamaat, JI) is an Islamist political party that was founded by Sayyid Abul Ala Maududi on 26 August 1941, in Lahore, in what is today Pakistan.[2] and is the oldest religious party in Pakistan.[2]

JI was a member of the Muttahida Majlis-e-Amal (MMA, United Council of Action, United Front), a coalition between religious-political parties in Pakistan. The MMA has denounced President Musharraf for "betraying" the Taliban and siding with the U.S. against them. They reject any attempts to settle the Kashmir dispute with India peacefully and support the Kashmir "Jihad". The MMA also denounces the presence of American troops and agencies in Pakistan. One of the allegation is that they support militant groups banned by the government.[8]

Maududi was arrested again in 1953 for his alleged role in the violent agitation against the Ahmadiyah sect. He was sentenced to death by a military court, but the sentence was commuted. In 1958 Pakistan came under military rule, and political parties, including the Jama'at-i Islami, were banned.


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## Sunni Man (Nov 21, 2009)

Douger said:


> Islam forbids not giving your percentage of what you earn to them like every other brainwashing scam created by mankind.


Actually, Islam is quite different in the aspect of giving.

In Islam the money you are mandated to give goes to people and not to the clergy or a building fund.

Basically, you personally find a family or individual who is in need and hand them some money. You are not forced to do this act of charity and are instructed to keep your gift a secret.


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## PixieStix (Nov 21, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> Kalam said:
> 
> 
> > Mr.Fitnah said:
> ...


 

That is very odd that you posted this, I have been reading some of Abul Ala Maududi's writings all morning

http://www.quranenglish.com/books/Jihad%20in%20Islam.pdf


Maududi wrote over 120 books and pamphlets and made over a 1000 speeches and press statements. His magnum opus was the 30 years in progress translation tasfir in udu of the q'uran, _Tafhim al-Qur&#8217;an_ (the meaning of the qu'ran), intended to give the Qur&#8217;an a practical contemporary interpretation. It became widely read throughout the subcontinent and has been translated into several languages


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## Kalam (Nov 21, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> Kalam said:
> 
> 
> > Mr.Fitnah said:
> ...


You have not refuted my argument concerning abrogation. I will assume this is because you cannot. If my assumption is incorrect, there's only one way to prove me wrong. Until you actually address the argument, I'll let you talk to yourself.


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## PixieStix (Nov 21, 2009)

English Quran Audio MP3 With Translation, The Meaning of Quran, English Hadith & Quranic or Islamic Lectures & Books, All Free Downloads - Quranenglish.com


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## Mr.Fitnah (Nov 21, 2009)

Kalam said:


> Mr.Fitnah said:
> 
> 
> > Kalam said:
> ...



You have no argument. Abrogation is a fact like the sky is blue, water is wet, women have secrets. 
The sources you quote to support your contention that abrogation is  false doctrine including Suyuti and Waliullah agree with me, not you.
Ulum al Qur'an - AL-NASIKH WA AL-MANSUKH- SunniPath Library - Books


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## Mr.Fitnah (Nov 21, 2009)

Many muslims like to say " Islam forbids the killing of innocent people"
Please provide Islamic scripture to prove unequivocally non muslims are innocent.


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## Mr.Fitnah (Dec 1, 2009)

Many muslims like to say " Islam forbids the killing of innocent people"
Please provide Islamic scripture to prove unequivocally non muslims are innocent.


----------



## Mr.Fitnah (Dec 1, 2009)

Many muslims like to say " Islam forbids the killing of innocent people"
Please provide Islamic scripture to prove unequivocally non muslims are innocent.


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## Kalam (Dec 1, 2009)

_Narrated Anas ibn Malik: The Prophet said, "Go in Allah's name, trusting in Allah, and adhering to the religion of Allah's Apostle. Do not kill a decrepit old man, or a young infant, or a child, or a woman; do not be dishonest about spoils, but collect your earnings, do right, and act well, for Allah loves those who do good." _

- Sunan Abu Dawud, Jihad, no. 2608



_ Narrated Rabah ibn Rabi': When we were with the Apostle of Allah on an expedition, he saw some people collected together over something and sent a man and said, "See, what are these people collected around?" He then came and said, "They are round a woman who has been killed." He said, "This is not one with whom fighting should have taken place." Khalid ibn al-Walid was in charge of the van, so he sent a man and said, "Tell Khalid not to kill a woman or a laborer."_ 

- Sunan Abu Dawud, Jihad, no. 2663

~~~~~~~~~~~

_"Concerning the saying of Allah, 'Fight in the way of Allah against those who fight you and do not trangress the limits. Indeed, Allaah does not love those who trangress': The killing of women and children is included within this, and so are those who are not involved in warfare."_

 - Umar ibn Abd al-Aziz, an-Nawadir wa az-Ziyadat, vol. III, p. 57



_"The fact that someone disbelieves does not prevent us from being just to him, and our dealing with them (in a state of war) should only be restricted to fighting or capturing them if they deserve so. And it is not permissible for us to retaliate in the same manner, even if they kill our women and children and cause sorrow to befall us, it is not permissible for us to act likewise with the intention of making them feel grief and sorrow."_

- Imam al-Qurtubi, Tafsir al-Qurtubi, commentary on v. 5:8



_"...So it was allowed for the believers to fight in defending themselves and to retaliate against those who evicted them from their homes and prevented them from the tawheed of Allah and worship of Him, and women are not included from those who do this. Then, it was prescribed for them to fight absolutely, and this is explained in His saying, 'Fight in the way of Allah against those who fight you.' So those people who are nor people of combat are not permitted to be fought against.

....

The foundation is that the blood of Adam's progeny is sanctified and inviolable, and no one is killed except with right. Killing due to kufr is not something which the legislations have agreed upon at any one time of the shariah, such as killing the one who sits out of combat, for this is something that the legislations and intellect do not differ over. The blood of a disbeliever during the early history of Islam was sanctified and inviolable just like the original sanctity of a person. Allah prevented the Muslims from killing such a disbeliever."_

- Ibn Taymiyyah, as-Sarim al-Masluul 'ala Shatim ar-Rasul, pp. 101-104



_"Killing is only obligatory when facing warfare and armed combat -- not when facing kufr. For this reason, neither women are to be killed nor children, nor the elderly, nor the blind, nor those worshipers who do not fight; rather, we fight against those who fight us. This was the way of the Messenger of Allah in dealing with the people of the earth: he used to fight those who fought against him until they either entered into the deen, make an agreement or treaty with him, or came under his authority by paying the jizya. This is what he used to tell his armies if they fought against their enemies, as has preceded from the Hadith of Buraydah." _

- Ibn Qayyim Al-Jawziyya, Ahkaam Ahl adh-Dhimma, vol. I, p. 17


Let us watch as the writings of these enormously influential Islamic scholars are dismissed with a string of pitiful one-liners or a lame cutn'paste.


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## Mr.Fitnah (Dec 1, 2009)

Kalam said:


> _
> 
> Let us watch as the writings of these enormously influential Islamic scholars are dismissed with a string of pitiful one-liners or a lame cutn'paste. _


_


You mean like  something from the quran?
Yeah I can do that.

Many muslims like to say " Islam forbids the killing of innocent people"
Please provide Islamic scripture to prove unequivocally non muslims are innocent._


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## Kalam (Dec 1, 2009)

Actually, your response fell under the "string of pitiful one-liners" category. In light of that, I believe we are done here.


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## Mr.Fitnah (Dec 1, 2009)

You were done some time ago.
Many muslims like to say " Islam forbids the killing of innocent people"
Please provide Islamic scripture to prove unequivocally non muslims are innocent.


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## Kalam (Dec 1, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> You were done some time ago.



You're damn right about that.


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## Mr.Fitnah (Dec 1, 2009)

Kalam said:


> Mr.Fitnah said:
> 
> 
> > You were done some time ago.
> ...


watching you post is like watching  a slow motion train wreck, you are a gift.

Many muslims like to say " Islam forbids the killing of innocent people"
Please provide Islamic scripture to prove unequivocally non muslims are innocent.


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## Sunni Man (Dec 1, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> Many muslims like to say " Islam forbids the killing of innocent people"
> Please provide Islamic scripture to prove unequivocally non muslims are innocent.



When Mr Fitnuts posts this statement that he repeatly posts.

It's basically like a white flag of surrender.

His arguments have failed and he has nothing to add to the debate.

Mr Fitnuts is at a loss and his mind is locked into an endless loop.

Posting the same two sentences over and over and over


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## Kalam (Dec 1, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> Kalam said:
> 
> 
> > Mr.Fitnah said:
> ...



The ironic hilarity of your remark is lost on you as my past several arguments, including the post I made tonight, remain unaddressed. You're not interested in debate; you've convinced yourself that you're an authority on Islam and that your knowledge of the religion surpasses that of any Muslim, living or dead (a belief which, by the way, is a never-ending source of amusement for me.) Why I've wasted so much time attempting to have a rational discussion with a poster with the cognitive prowess of a three year-old, I'm not sure. If your IQ score catches up to your age and you become capable of posting a response that amounts to more than plugging your ears with your fingers and shrieking, give me a holler. For now, I'll leave you here in your playpen to babble to yourself for a while.


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## Mr.Fitnah (Dec 1, 2009)

Wow ,  most posters try to  keep at least a single post between contradiction you  just go  all in .
You  have tried  and failed .
You cannot prove  non muslims are innocent according to Islamic scripture .


Please invite your imam  or spiritual leader to explain Islam to you   here on this thread so you can become a true believer.


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## Mr.Fitnah (Dec 1, 2009)

Sunni Man said:


> Mr.Fitnah said:
> 
> 
> > Many muslims like to say " Islam forbids the killing of innocent people"
> ...



There is no debate.
Just prove it .


----------



## Kalam (Dec 1, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> Wow ,  most posters try to  keep at least a single post between contradiction you  just go  all in .


Most of us also attempt to type coherently, but I won't judge.



Mr.Fitnah said:


> You  have tried  and failed .


If only repeating that made it so. 



Mr.Fitnah said:


> You cannot prove  non muslims are innocent according to Islamic scripture .


Already have, kimosabe. I cannot be blamed for your characteristically stupid choice to remain willfully ignorant. You have convinced yourself beyond all doubt that the drivel you post has more intellectual force than a position upheld consistently by the religion's most prominent thinkers, both modern and from throughout history. Meanwhile, an understanding of my religion's most basic tenets continues to elude you. 



Mr.Fitnah said:


> Please invite your imam  or spiritual leader to explain Islam to you   here on this thread so you can become a true believer.


He passed away some 1400 years ago. Fortunately, I was able to become a "true believer" without his direct assistance thanks to the extensive instructions he left with me and my brothers and sisters. 

Incidentally, you should be thankful that I haven't yet leveled that glass house of yours, sir Christian. That anybody can attack the noblest religion while their hand is on one of the most convoluted and, at times, evil texts present on Earth perplexes me. I've trekked my way through several different translations of your Bible; hearing the account of your false Moses instructing his followers to slaughter children and rape little girls never ceases to perturb me, nor does the small-minded misogyny that has been enshrined in both "testaments."


----------



## Mr.Fitnah (Dec 1, 2009)

Please link to the  post where you  prove unequivocally non muslims are innocent according to Islamic scripture .


----------



## Mr.Fitnah (Dec 1, 2009)

Please link to the  post where you  prove unequivocally non muslims are innocent according to Islamic scripture .


----------



## Mr.Fitnah (Dec 1, 2009)

Start your owe  thread  punk,
I don't know  why you would think I was a "Christian."
It does not matter  what any other "faith" calls  for.
 Islam is a genocidal hate group that calls for the death of all non muslims.
Islam is a fraud based on lies ,a cult of personality that deserves to be abandon  by all free thinking persons.
You know this is true.

Many muslims like to say " Islam forbids the killing of innocent people"
Please provide Islamic scripture to prove unequivocally non muslims are innocent.


----------



## Kalam (Dec 2, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> Please link to the  post where you  prove unequivocally non muslims are innocent according to Islamic scripture .



Click on a random page number and you're bound to find one. This thread's like a low-stakes roulette wheel.


----------



## Kalam (Dec 2, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> Start your owe  thread  punk,
> I don't know  why you would think I was a "Christian."


Because you are one. 



Mr.Fitnah said:


> It does not matter  what any other "faith" calls  for.


I recommend turning to chapter eight of the book of John.



Mr.Fitnah said:


> Islam is a genocidal hate group that calls for the death of all non muslims.


So you keep saying. 



Mr.Fitnah said:


> Islam is a fraud based on lies ,a cult of personality that deserves to be abandon  by all free thinking persons.


Islam is nothing short of the ideal way of life. Perhaps your obsessive, irrational detestation of the religion stems from anxiety over the realization that, in accordance with the will of Allah (SWT), Islam will continue to be embraced by humankind. 



Mr.Fitnah said:


> You know this is true.


On the contrary, I think _you_ know that what I'm saying is true, along with everybody else who is able to read and comprehend English. You simply lack intellectual honesty. 



Mr.Fitnah said:


> Many muslims like to say " Islam forbids the killing of innocent people"
> Please provide Islamic scripture to prove unequivocally non muslims are innocent.


At this point, tacking that on to all of your posts will only succeed in making your dishonesty and asininity immediately obvious to any poster who has the misfortune of stumbling upon this thread.


----------



## Kalam (Dec 2, 2009)

Kalam said:


> _"Concerning the saying of Allah, 'Fight in the way of Allah against those who fight you and do not trangress the limits. Indeed, Allaah does not love those who trangress': The killing of women and children is included within this, and so are those who are not involved in warfare."_
> 
> - Umar ibn Abd al-Aziz, an-Nawadir wa az-Ziyadat, vol. III, p. 57


_


----------



## frazzledgear (Dec 2, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> Mr Ripley said:
> 
> 
> > Muslims fight with each other when they run out of infidels to attack.
> ...



I have to say, the Muslims who justify murdering even unarmed non-Muslims (oh, its ok as long as we say it is in the name of Allah because Allah LOVES seeing his own creations blown to smithereens and even the blood of a little child dripping down the walls as long as the murderer says he did it all for Allah) -really don't do a lot to make the religion look very attractive to non-Muslims.  In fact, they make it look like a pack of blood-thirsty, inhumane, woman-hating, goat loving, insecure men with a need to saw off heads and kick the shit out of other people in order to feel better about themselves.  (Oh, all in the name of Allah of course because any murder is automatically "cleaned up" if the murdering thug says he did it in Allah's name.)  Muslims expect the rest of us to treat them in a humane fashion even as they justify their inhumanity to everyone else.  (Because Allah LIKES seeing non-Muslims treated inhumanely of course -empathy for another human being is a one-way street apparently.)  And hey -when they manage to be the most vicious murdering Muslim thugs willing to kill the most to grab power, no surprise about how they rule then is it?   A real hell on earth that is not a good place for living things.  Oh sure Allah created us all so we could live the most mean, depressing, deprived existence scrabbling around in the dirt, deprived of free will because other Muslims who always claim to know Allah's will better than YOU possibly could is right there to make sure you don't make the "wrong" decision, refuse to educate women, ban them from schools and the workplace - then when her husband dies and she ends up begging on the streets, go find that verse again about how wonderful Islam is -and tell yourself it just doesn't get any better than this.  

So you showed us the cherry picked verses any Muslim needs to justify slaughtering non-Muslims.  I wonder how that all fits in with the nasty truth of history and the fact that no other religion has been responsible for killing as many Muslims as..........other Muslims.  Where are the verses about how Allah likes that too?  Just one big happy family, right?  Like the Hatfields and McCoys.  Seems to me some Muslims can find the justification for killing whoever they want whenever they want.   But I'm pretty sure they would never accept those verses from any other religion -so it shouldn't be a surprise to any Muslim in the least that non-Muslims tend to strongly disagree about their claim to have a right to slaughter us.  Normal people really don't believe we were put on this earth so Muslims with a penchant for butchering others could have plenty of opportunities for target practice.

I have some real objections to any religion where the punishment for murdering a member of that religion is far harsher than the murder of someone who is not a member of that religion.  I only know of one religion that does that.  Which is another mark against it in my book and goes in the "inhumane" column.  Right next to executing a rape victim for "adultery" -while of course the goat lover who did it walks away alive.   It wold be really nice if Muslims cleaned up their own house first before looking to destroy mine -one the grounds they believe Allah thinks I'm the one with the dirty house.


----------



## Kalam (Dec 2, 2009)

Mr. Fitnah is not a Muslim; he is desperately trying to be a critic of the religion.


----------



## Mr.Fitnah (Dec 2, 2009)

Kalam said:


> Kalam said:
> 
> 
> > _"Concerning the saying of Allah, 'Fight in the way of Allah against those who fight you and do not trangress the limits. Indeed, Allaah does not love those who trangress': The killing of women and children is included within this, and so are those who are not involved in warfare."_
> ...



2:193.  
And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allâh) and (all and every kind of) worship is for Allâh (Alone).[] But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against Az-Zâlimûn (the polytheists, and wrong-doers, etc.)  
The Noble Quran : Surat 2

let there be no transgression except against Az-Zâlimûn 
let there be no transgression except against Az-Zâlimûn 
let there be no transgression except against Az-Zâlimûn 
let there be no transgression except against Az-Zâlimûn 


Is there an Arabic word for these oppressors ?

The Noble Quran's Search Results:

Seems there is little doubt as to the use of the word oppressor in  this verse.
In the Arabic  the  word is *Zâlimûn*
Polytheists and wrong-doers and unjust.

The Noble Quran's Search Results:

Apparently  the same arabic word is used to describe oppresors  in 2:193  and  2:254

Quraan Transliteration

*That means disbelief is oppresion*


----------



## Sunni Man (Dec 2, 2009)

Your silly posts really make me laugh Mr Fitnuts


----------



## frazzledgear (Dec 2, 2009)

Sunni Man said:


> PixieStix said:
> 
> 
> > Sunni Man said:
> ...



I think your comment says more than you intended.  You may think it is a joke, but what it takes to be an American goes way beyond playing baseball and eating apple pie.  It isn't about what you DO, it is about whether you have adopted and share the core values that makes this country what it is and Americans what they are.  The same thing millions from around the world have done since the founding of this nation -immigrating from everywhere in the world and still figured out how to BE an American too.  While realizing that doing so takes nothing away from their heritage, their faith, their family or who they are as a person.   

If you want to move here but turn it into another copy of the place you just left -then why move here at all instead of staying where you obviously think you belong and is a much better fit for you?  WE don't want to turn it into another copy of the place some immigrant just left -this is OUR home and OUR culture and OUR heritage.  We have always welcomed immigrants to our shores -but NOT so they can turn OUR country into an imitation of the one they just left or demand WE assimilate to THEM.  It is with the expectations that you intend to become one of us and not the other way around.   

I eat yue-shiang beef and play Mahjongg but it will never make me Chinese.


----------



## Kalam (Dec 2, 2009)

Sunni Man said:


> Your silly posts really make me laugh Mr Fitnuts



Clearly, we should subscribe to his "interpretation" over that which has been consistently upheld by Islam's foremost thinkers since the religion's advent.


----------



## PixieStix (Dec 2, 2009)

Sunni Man said:


> Your silly posts really make me laugh Mr Fitnuts


 

Do you often laugh at the Holy words of the Qur'an?


----------



## Mr.Fitnah (Dec 3, 2009)

Kalam said:


> _"The fact that someone disbelieves does not prevent us from being just to him, and our dealing with them (in a state of war) should only be restricted to fighting or capturing them if they deserve so. And it is not permissible for us to retaliate in the same manner, even if they kill our women and children and cause sorrow to befall us, it is not permissible for us to act likewise with the intention of making them feel grief and sorrow."_
> 
> - Imam al-Qurtubi, Tafsir al-Qurtubi, commentary on v. 5:8



Did  the "esteeemd" scholar comment om  some verses that are more of concern to me like 9:5 ,9:29  8:39 . 2:193 ?


----------



## Sunni Man (Dec 3, 2009)

PixieStix said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> > Your silly posts really make me laugh Mr Fitnuts
> ...


Nope, just you


----------



## Mr.Fitnah (Dec 7, 2009)

Many muslims like to say " Islam forbids the killing of innocent people"
Please provide Islamic scripture to prove unequivocally non muslims are innocent.


----------



## Mr.Fitnah (Dec 8, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> Proof looks like scripture that abrogates this
> 
> And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and polytheism, i.e. worshipping others besides Allaah), and the religion (worship) will all be for Allaah Alone [in the whole of the world]
> 
> ...


any time now


----------



## Mr.Fitnah (Dec 14, 2009)

Qazi terms suicide attacks un-Islamic

NOWSHERA: Former Jamaat-e-Islami (JI) chief Qazi Hussain Ahmed on Sunday called suicide bombings un-Islamic, saying that US drone strikes were an assault on the countrys sovereignty and cannot be tolerated anymore. Addressing a conference, he said Islam did not allow killing of Muslim brothers by launching suicide attacks and bomb blasts on ordinary citizens. Suicide attacks are not allowed in Islam and our religion does not allow the killing of innocent people.


 The murder of a Muslim is in fact the killing of all humanity, he said, adding that US and NATO forces would be defeated in Afghanistan due to their anti-people policies. 

He said drone attacks in Pakistan were a violation of international law and the countrys sovereignty. Qazi called for strict action against elements involved in corruption adding that clerics from different schools of thought should unite to guide the nation in these testing times and protect it from imperialist forces. app

Daily Times - Leading News Resource of Pakistan


----------



## Mr.Fitnah (Dec 20, 2009)

Many muslims like to say " Islam forbids the killing of innocent people"
Please provide Islamic scripture to prove unequivocally non muslims are innocent.


----------



## Mr.Fitnah (Dec 20, 2009)

Many muslims like to say " Islam forbids the killing of innocent people"
Please provide Islamic scripture to prove unequivocally non muslims are innocent.


----------



## mystic (Dec 22, 2009)

frazzledgear said:


> I think your comment says more than you intended.  You may think it is a joke, but what it takes to be an American goes way beyond playing baseball and eating apple pie.  It isn't about what you DO, it is about whether you have adopted and share the core values that makes this country what it is and Americans what they are.  The same thing millions from around the world have done since the founding of this nation -immigrating from everywhere in the world and still figured out how to BE an American too.  While realizing that doing so takes nothing away from their heritage, their faith, their family or who they are as a person.




Um, you're totally and completely wrong. All one has to do is look around this forum to realize that Americans are divided on what constitutes "core values".


----------



## Mr.Fitnah (Dec 29, 2009)

Many muslims like to say " Islam forbids the killing of innocent people"
Please provide Islamic scripture to prove unequivocally non muslims are innocent.


----------



## Mr.Fitnah (Dec 29, 2009)

Many muslims like to say " Islam forbids the killing of innocent people"
Please provide Islamic scripture to prove unequivocally non muslims are innocent.


----------



## Yurt (Dec 29, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> Many muslims like to say " Islam forbids the killing of innocent people"
> Please provide Islamic scripture to prove unequivocally non muslims are innocent.



what are you talking about?


----------



## Mr.Fitnah (Dec 29, 2009)

Yurt said:


> Mr.Fitnah said:
> 
> 
> > Many muslims like to say " Islam forbids the killing of innocent people"
> ...



Have you ever heard " talking heads for Islam say" "islam forbids the killing of innocent people"?


----------



## mystic (Dec 30, 2009)

Islam forbids Mr. Fitnah from pretending that he's not a secret Muslim any longer. 

It's ok Mr. Fitnah, you can come out of the closet now.


----------



## Mr.Fitnah (Dec 30, 2009)

mystic said:


> Islam forbids Mr. Fitnah from pretending that he's not a secret Muslim any longer.
> 
> It's ok Mr. Fitnah, you can come out of the closet now.


Seek help ,buzz off , happy new year,

Many muslims like to say " Islam forbids the killing of innocent people"
Please provide Islamic scripture to prove unequivocally non muslims are innocent.


----------



## Misty (Jan 2, 2010)

From wiki;

"Homosexual behaviour (liwat) - or sexual acts between members of the same sex - is considered to be adultery, being sex with an illicit partner. A person who performs such actions (luti) is regarded as extraordinarily corrupt, because he challenges the harmony of the sexes and God's creation. Homosexual behaviour is therefore regarded as a revolt against God which violates the order of the world, and would be a source of evil and anarchy. The only remedy against such unnatural and sinful feelings is to fight and suppress them. Those who stubbornly persist await severe punishments[7]."


----------



## Mr.Fitnah (Jan 2, 2010)

Islam's Love-Hate Relationship with Homosexuality 

By Serge Trifkovic
FrontPageMagazine.com | 1/24/2003 



One in a series of excerpts adapted by Robert Locke from Dr. Serge Trifkovics new book 

The Sword of the Prophet: A Politically-Incorrect Guide to Islam

This sin, the impact of which makes ones skin crawl, which words cannot describe, is evidence of perverted instincts, total collapse of shame and honor, and extreme filthiness of character and soul The heavens, the Earth and the mountains tremble from the impact of this sin. The angels shudder as they anticipate the punishment of Allah to descend upon the people who commit this indescribable sin. (1)

There are many sins in Islam that may fit this description, from idolatry, atheism, and apostasy, to drunkenness, adultery, and questioning the divine origin of the Koran. In this particular instance it refers to homosexuality, for which a death sentence remains on the statute books and is enforced in several Islamic countries.

In Saudi Arabia on April 16, 2001, five homosexuals were sentenced to 2,600 lashes and 6 years in prison, and four others to 2,400 lashes and 5 years imprisonment for deviant sexual behavior. Amnesty International subsequently reported that six men were executed on charges of deviant sexual behavior, some of which were related to their sexual orientation, but it was uncertain whether the six men who were executed were among the nine who were sentenced to flogging and imprisonment in April (2).

It is difficult to establish precisely the number of homosexuals that have been executed in Iran since the Islamic revolution in 1979, since not all sentences are widely publicized, but estimates range from several hundred to 4,000 (3).  According to Amnesty International, at least three homosexual men and two lesbians were publicly beheaded in January 1990. The Islamic Penal Law Against Homosexuals, approved in July 1991 and ratified in November of that year, is simple. Article 110: Punishment for sodomy is killing; the Sharia judge decides on how to carry out the killing. Article 129: Punishment for lesbianism is one hundred (100) lashes for each party. Article 131: If the act of lesbianism is repeated three times and punishment is enforced each time, the death sentence will be issued the fourth time.

While the Taliban ruled Afghanistan, it regularly executed homosexuals. Islamic jurists in Kabul and Kandahar only differed on the method of killing. One group of scholars believed the condemned should be taken to the top of the highest building in the city and hurled to their deaths, while others advocated placing them in a pit next to a wall which was to be toppled on them, so that they are buried alive. Both methods were solidly grounded in authoritative tradition, and both were applied. At least five men convicted of sodomy by Afghanistans sharia courts had been placed next to walls by Taliban officials and then buried under the rubble as the walls were toppled upon them. In one such incident, three homosexuals were punished thus while Taliban leader Mullah Mohammad Omar watched along with thousands of spectators. After the 30-minute waiting period, the three men were still alive, but two died the next day. What became of the third is unknown (4).  The punishment by stoning is derived from the Koranic account of Sodoms destruction by a rain of stones, which was itself the product of Mohammeds misunderstanding of the Hebrew story of fire and brimstone, i.e. sulfur: 

We also (sent) Lut: he said to his people: Do ye commit lewdness such as no people in creation (ever) committed before you? For ye practice your lusts on men in preference to women: ye are indeed a people transgressing beyond bounds. And his people gave no answer but this: they said, drive them out of your city: these are indeed men who want to be clean and pure! But We saved him and his family, except his wife: she was of those who lagged behind. And We rained down on them a shower (of brimstone): then see what was the end of those who indulged in sin and crime! (5)

The Koranic claim that homosexuality was unknown before it first appeared in Sodom is a uniquely Islamic concept; so is the notion that its destruction was exclusively due to the homosexual practices of its inhabitants, a departure from the Hebrew Scriptures. In addition to the Koran many hadiths or authoritative traditional sayings mention liwat, (homosexual intercourse) e.g. When a man mounts another man, the throne of God shakes, and Kill the one that is doing it and also kill the one that it is being done to (6).  Mohammeds first successor Abu Bakr reportedly had a homosexual burned at the stake. The fourth caliph, Mohammeds son-in-law Ali, ordered a sodomite thrown from the minaret of a mosque. Others he ordered to be stoned. One of the earliest and most authoritative commentators on the Koran, Ibn Abbas (died 687) blended both approaches into a two-step execution in which the sodomite should be thrown from the highest building in the town and then stoned. Later it was decided that if no building were tall enough, the he could be shoved off a cliff. Regardless of the exact method, 

Moslem Jurists agree that, if proven of guilt, both of them should be killed. However, jurists differ on the methodology of capital punishment (7).  

There are seven countries in the world that carry the death penalty for homosexual acts, and all of them justify this punishment with sharia.

In Moslem nations, the suppression of liaison between men and women outside prearranged wedlock has produced frustrated sexual tension that has sought and found release in homosexual intercourse through the centuries. Those denied access to licit sexuality have sought and obtained outlets that have produced chronic contradiction between normative morality and social realities. Male and female prostitution and same-sex practices  including abuse of young boys by their older male relatives  have been rampant in Islamic societies from the medieval to the modern period. It should be emphasized that those societies stress a distinction between the sexual act itself, which was deemed acceptable, and emotional attachment, which was unpardonable:

Sexual relations in Middle Eastern societies have historically articulated social hierarchies, that is, dominant and subordinate social positions: adult men on top; women, boys and slaves below (8).  

A Moslem who is the active partner in sexual relations with other men is not considered a homosexual (the word has no pre-modern Arabic equivalent); quite the contrary, his sexual domination of another man may even confer a status of hyper-masculinity. He may use other men as substitutes for women, and at the same time have great contempt for them.  This depraved view of sex, common in mainstream Moslem societies, is commonly found in the West only in prisons. In all cases it is the presence of love, affection, or equality among sexual partners that is intolerable. Equality in sexual relations is unimaginable in Islam, whether heterosexual or homosexual. Sex in Islamic societies has never been about mutuality between partners, but about the adult males achievement of pleasure through domination.

Historically, this state of affairs was not concealed from Western observers who were fascinated, shocked, and often attracted by the outward appearances of rampant, barely concealed pederasty. By 1800, a European traveler to Egypt wrote: 

The inconceivable inclination which has dishonored the Greeks and Persians of antiquity constitutes the delight, or, more properly speaking the infamy of the Egyptians ... the contagion has seized the poor as well as the rich. 

The contagion in question was spelled out more bluntly by an earlier writer, Thomas Sherley, describing the Turks: 

For their Sodommerye they use it soe publiquely and impudentlye as an honest Christian woulde shame to companye his wyffe as they do with their buggeringe boys (9).  

A 17th century French visitor to the Middle East went so far as to claim that Moslems were bisexual by nature, and many male authors gave descriptions of licentiousness (lesbianism) among women in harems and bath houses. Homosexuality became known to the English as the Persian or Turkish vice. 

This peculiar aspect of the Middle East has never entirely disappeared. The sight of men, even soldiers in uniform, strolling along a street hand in hand, strikes first-time visitors as extraordinary even today. The Moslem world enjoyed a reputation as a haven for sex with boys and men well into the twentieth century. The proclivities of many Western authors like Gustave Flaubert, Oscar Wilde, or Andre Gide, reflected the pederast and homosexual attractions of the Islamic world; the fascination continues in the gay culture of our own time:

But the bottom line - and its coming from a devout bottom - is that theres still something extremely sensual and potent about the image of the Islamic male. You only have to compare the stiff, asexual frigidity of Bush and his bookmarmish wife with the moist-eyed, sensitive and soft-spoken quality of the bearded Bin Laden, feminine yet virile, with his multiple wives and vast progeny, to grasp the difference (10). 

The author of this passage, a self-confessed promiscuous homosexual, has intuited something important, and dangerous. Excessively doting, downtrodden mothers fixated on their offspring, and aloof, mostly distant and domineering fathers, create preconditions for what is known in clinical psychology as the lost object homosexuality, as opposed to the pre-Oedipal polyformous homosexuality, which is love for men. The cry for the missing father, that emanates across the Moslem world into the endless void from a hundred thousand minarets five times each day, can never be answered. The hatred that motivates Bin Laden and his feminine yet virile followers is not the normal aggressiveness of the child for the father at the Oedipal stage, which can be mediated and managed, but hard-core psychotic homosexuality of the son abandoned by his father, a near-incurable condition that can lead to homicidal, delusional paranoia.

This condition is well known to the practitioners of clinical psychology and psychoanalysis in Great Britain, where thousands of sons of upper and upper-middle-class families end up in neo-Islamic establishments known as Public Schools. It is not too far-fetched to conclude that British Islamophilia under Disraeli and after was not merely due to the usual game of balancing the powers:

I sometimes wonder if there is not some horrifying attraction, especially for English boys brought up in a public school, to the brutal manliness that regards sodomitic rape as an expression of virility. In any event, a series of Anglo-Saxon males who have gone in search of their manhood found it in Islamic culture: Sir Richard Burton, T.E. Lawrence, and Pasha Club are at the head of a large pack, whose rear is brought up by the academic camp-followers and foundation executives who find, in their defense of Islam, the excuse for their hatred of Jews (11). 

Men and women have been created different, and the recognition of those differences is essential in any society that does not want to follow the path of post-modern depravity. The denial of that difference is essential in the Faustian experiment to which the West is subjecting itself, and those who do not wish to partake in the proceedings may find Islams frank admission of difference between sexes alluring; but that is the lure of dementia as the cure for cancer.  Islam has found the opposite extreme of the modern Wests bed-hopping unisex feminism, and has found it equally a source of opposite, though equally poisonous, pathologies.  The traditional Western view, a balance between sexual equality and sexual difference, between freedom and restraint, is the best answer.  Islams problem of homosexuality, a reflection of the deeper psychosis endemic to the Islamic world view, illustrates a problem that cannot be solved short of Islams thorough and comprehensive reform and revision. 

Footnotes:

1. Dr. Abdul Aziz Al-Fawzan, The Evil Sin of Homosexuality http://www.islamweb.net/english/family/sociaffair/socaff-84.html

2. Associated Press, April 16, 2001.

3. The Iranian: Letters, The Iranian

4. Amnesty International report, May 1998

5. 7:80-84

6. Further examples are listed at ISLAM AND HOMOSEXUALITY

7. http://www.jamaat.org/qa/homo.html

8. Bruce Dunne, Power and Sexuality in the Middle East, Middle East Report, Spring 1998.

9. Brian Whitaker in The Guardian, November 19, 2001 Homosexuality on trial in Egypt | World news | guardian.co.uk

10. http://www.brucelabruce.com/Moslem/right.html

11. Th. Fleming, Chronicles (1999), op. cit.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Serge Trifkovic received his PhD from the University of Southampton in England and pursued postdoctoral research at the Hoover Institution at Stanford. His past journalistic outlets have included the BBC World Service, the Voice of America, CNN International, MSNBC, U.S. News & World Report, The Washington Times, the Philadelphia Inquirer, The Times of London, and the Cleveland Plain Dealer. He is foreign affairs editor of Chronicles.


----------



## Mr.Fitnah (Jan 2, 2010)

Many muslims like to say " Islam forbids the killing of innocent people"
Please provide Islamic scripture to prove unequivocally non muslims are innocent.


----------



## Sunni Man (Jan 2, 2010)

Glad to see you are finally admitting to the board that you are gay Mr Fitnuts


----------



## Mr.Fitnah (Jan 2, 2010)

Sunni Man said:


> Glad to see you are finally admitting to the board that you are gay Mr Fitnuts



Another one of your fact free posts to add to the discourse, thank you. Your record remain untarnished.

Many muslims like to say " Islam forbids the killing of innocent people"
Please provide Islamic scripture to prove unequivocally non muslims are innocent.


----------



## mudwhistle (Jan 3, 2010)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> Islam forbids the killing of innocent people"
> Please provide scripture to proves unequivocally non muslims are innocent
> Shirk is worse than Killing
> 
> ...



I guess in American slang this means...."Paybacks are a motherfucker"


----------



## Mr.Fitnah (Jan 12, 2010)

Many muslims like to say " Islam forbids the killing of innocent people"
Please provide Islamic scripture to prove unequivocally non muslims are innocent.


----------



## Mr.Fitnah (Jan 18, 2010)

Many muslims like to say " Islam forbids the killing of innocent people"
Please provide Islamic scripture to prove unequivocally non muslims are innocent.


----------



## GEORGE ORWELL (Jan 25, 2010)

*GANG RAPES IN THE KORAN.  Rapes of a variety of types are mentioned in the Bible. One big gang rape one can think of is when Moses and his friends are ordered by Jehovah God, the Jewish God, to gang rape 32,000 virgins, evidently, most of them being babies. One must read the whole Chapter 31 of Numbers to get the story. This certainly must be the largest gang rape ever recorded in history. It is significant that nowhere in the New Testament is this condemned. This leads one to ask the question: What about the Koran? Are gang rapes mentioned there, and how is it treated?*


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## Mr.Fitnah (Jan 25, 2010)

Many muslims like to say " Islam forbids the killing of innocent people"
Please provide Islamic scripture to prove unequivocally non muslims are innocent.


----------



## MajikMyst (Jan 26, 2010)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> > Last time we had a picnic for all of the muslim familys at the mosque.
> ...



See there is your flaw.. Islamic scripture is not the deciding factor in innocense and neither is the bible or any other religious book..

If you want to live your life by islamic law, that is your choice.. But you can't hold others who do not share your beliefs to islamic laws.. 

Christians have the same problem.. Nobody can be held to christian law either.. 

If you choose to be christians then you choose to live by it's laws.. If you choose to be islamic, then live by it's laws.. In either case, you made the choice and you have to let others make that same choice.. Even if it is to not live by either law.. 

So, You don't need any proof.. You need to accept the truth.. Religion is a choice.. 

What is sad is that neither religion gives that choice to their own children.. They are all indoctrinated into believing a religion against their will.. And hence will never be a true christian, or part of islam.. Only those that come of their own free will and seek whatever truth you offer is the true believer and a true member of your religion.. 

Indoctrinating children is what cults do.. Is Islam and Christianity a cult?


----------



## Mr.Fitnah (Jan 26, 2010)

MajikMyst said:


> Mr.Fitnah said:
> 
> 
> > Sunni Man said:
> ...



Islam Question and Answer - Judging by that which Allaah has revealed
Islam Question and Answer - Should he turn to the human rights organizations to get his rights?
Islam Question and Answer - The kufr of one who rules according to other than what Allaah revealed

Allaah has commanded us to refer matters to His judgement and to establish Shareeah, and He has forbidden us to rule with anything else, as is clear from a number of aayaat in the Quraan, such as the aayaat in Soorat al-Maaidah (5) which discuss ruling according to what Allaah has revealed, and mention the following topics:

The command to rule according to what Allaah has revealed: And so judge between them by what Allaah has revealed . . . [aayah 49]

Warning against ruling by other than what Allaah has revealed: . . . and follow not their vain desires . . . [aayah 49]

Warning against compromising on any detail of Shareeah, no matter how small: . . . but beware of them lest they turn you far away from some of that which Allaah has sent down to you . . . [aayah 49]

Forbidding seeking the ruling of jaahiliyyah, as is expressed in the rhetorical question Do they then seek the judgement of (the Days of) Ignorance? [aayah 50]

The statement that nobody is better than Allaah to judge: . . . and who is better in judgement than Allaah for a people who have firm Faith? [aayah 50]

The statement that whoever does not judge according to what Allaah revealed is a kaafir, a zaalim (oppressor or wrongdoer) and a faasiq (sinner), as Allaah says: . . . And whoever does not judge by what Allaah has revealed, such are the kaafiroon. [aayah 44]; . . . And whoever does not judge by that which Allaah has revealed, such are the zaalimoon (polytheists and wrongdoers) [aayah 45]; . . . And whoever does not judge by what Allaah has revealed (then) such (people) are the faasiqoon (rebellious or disobedient). [aayah 47].

The statement that it is obligatory for the Muslims to judge according to what Allaah has revealed, even if those who seek their judgement are not Muslim, as Allaah says: . . . And if you judge, judge with justice between them. . . [aayah 42]


----------



## Mr.Fitnah (Jan 26, 2010)

MajikMyst said:


> Mr.Fitnah said:
> 
> 
> > Sunni Man said:
> ...


Snip
He did not say,if they pay the jizyah. The Jews, Christians and Magians are to be asked to enter Islam; if they refuse then they should be asked to pay the jizyah. If they refuse to pay the jizyah then the Muslims must fight them if they are able to do so. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning): 

Fight against those who (1) believe not in Allaah,(2) nor in the Last Day,(3) nor forbid that which has been forbidden by Allaah and His Messenger (Muhammad),(4) and those who acknowledge not the religion of truth (i.e. Islam) among the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians), until they pay the Jizyah with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued

[al-Tawbah 9:29] 

And it was proven that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) accepted the jizyah from the Magians, but it was not proven that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) or his companions (may Allaah be pleased with them) accepted the jizyah from anyone except the three groups mentioned above. 

The basic principle concerning that is the words of Allaah (interpretation of the meaning): 

And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and polytheism, i.e. worshipping others besides Allaah), and the religion (worship) will all be for Allaah Alone [in the whole of the world]

[al-Anfaal 8:39] 

Then when the Sacred Months (the 1st, 7th, 11th, and 12th months of the Islamic calendar) have passed, then kill the Mushrikoon (see V.2:105) wherever you find them, and capture them and besiege them, and lie in wait for them in each and every ambush. But if they repent [by rejecting Shirk (polytheism) and accept Islamic Monotheism] and perform As-Salaah (Iqaamat-as-Salaah), and give Zakaah, then leave their way free. Verily, Allaah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful

[al-Tawbah 9:5] 

This verse is known as Ayat al-Sayf (the verse of the sword). 

These and similar verses abrogate the verses which say that there is no compulsion to become Muslim. 

And Allaah is the Source of strength. 

Majmoo Fataawa wa Maqaalaat lil-Shaykh Ibn Baaz, 6/219 


Islam Question and Answer - There is no compulsion to accept Islam


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## Mr.Fitnah (Jan 26, 2010)

MajikMyst said:


> Mr.Fitnah said:
> 
> 
> > Sunni Man said:
> ...



33:21. Indeed in the Messenger of Allâh (Muhammad ) you have a good example to follow for him who hopes in (the Meeting with) Allâh and the Last Day and remembers Allâh much. 


'Abdullah bin 'Umar, may Allah be pleased with them, reported: 
Allah's Messenger said: I have been commanded to fight against people till they testify that there is no god but Allah, and that Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah, perform the Prayer, and pay Zakah. If they do that, their blood and property are guaranteed protection on my behalf except when justified by law, and their affairs rest with Allah. 
Display

Abu Hurairah, may Allah be pleased with him, reported: 
The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said: I have been commanded to fight against people until they testify that there is no god but Allah, and he who professes it is guaranteed the protection of his property and life on my behalf except for a right warrant, and his affairs rest with Allah. 
Display


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## MajikMyst (Jan 26, 2010)

So?? Your Islamic and brain dead??

What part of 'Your scriptures mean nothing to me or anyone else that isn't islam do you not understand?' 

You made 3 posts of nothing but crap..


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## Mr.Fitnah (Jan 26, 2010)

MajikMyst said:


> So?? Your Islamic and brain dead??
> 
> What part of 'Your scriptures mean nothing to me or anyone else that isn't islam do you not understand?'
> 
> You made 3 posts of nothing but crap..


Im not a muslim , that is some the legal reasoning for Islamic  jihad.


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## Mr.Fitnah (Jan 26, 2010)

Many muslims like to say " Islam forbids the killing of innocent people"
Please provide Islamic scripture to prove unequivocally non muslims are innocent.


----------



## MajikMyst (Jan 26, 2010)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> Many muslims like to say " Islam forbids the killing of innocent people"
> Please provide Islamic scripture to prove unequivocally non muslims are innocent.



Anyone is innocent.. Again, Islamic law doesn't mean diddly here or anywhere..

Get that through your head there moron!!

If you want to believe that nobody is innocent except muslims, then you are what is wrong with the Muslim religioin..


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## Mr.Fitnah (Jan 26, 2010)

MajikMyst said:


> Mr.Fitnah said:
> 
> 
> > Many muslims like to say " Islam forbids the killing of innocent people"
> ...


The internet is not for you.
http://www.usmessageboard.com/1944629-post1371.html


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## Mr.Fitnah (Jan 26, 2010)

Many muslims like to say " Islam forbids the killing of innocent people"
Please provide Islamic scripture to prove unequivocally non muslims are innocent.


----------



## MajikMyst (Jan 26, 2010)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> Many muslims like to say " Islam forbids the killing of innocent people"
> Please provide Islamic scripture to prove unequivocally non muslims are innocent.



Prove they are not innocent in any terms?? 

Other than your fucked up religion...


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## Kalam (Jan 27, 2010)

MajikMyst said:


> Mr.Fitnah said:
> 
> 
> > Many muslims like to say " Islam forbids the killing of innocent people"
> ...



Mr. Fitnah isn't a Muslim.


----------



## Mr.Fitnah (Jan 27, 2010)

Kalam said:


> MajikMyst said:
> 
> 
> > Mr.Fitnah said:
> ...



That crazy bitch dont listen.


----------



## MajikMyst (Jan 28, 2010)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> Kalam said:
> 
> 
> > MajikMyst said:
> ...



You think your the only one that can neg someone??? What a crazy bitch you are?? 

Did you happen to notice the little white box where my rep would be?? My rep is off moron!! So it doesn't matter what you do.. But thanks for the neg anyways!! I have returned the favor!! 

And you are the idiot here.. You are asking people to prove their innocense according to your standards.. Nobody has to prove their innocense.. You must prove they are guilty.. 

Islam is a fucked up religion if everyone except muslims are guilty of whatever.. 

Everyone is innocent.. Period!! 

As I said before.. Please provide proof, beside pasting more of your islamic garbage!! Provide proof that everyone is guilty except muslims?? 

It is you who both can't listen and can't read..


----------



## Mr.Fitnah (Jan 28, 2010)

MajikMyst said:


> Mr.Fitnah said:
> 
> 
> > Kalam said:
> ...



You have read the thread.
Islamic scripture proves  only muslims are innocent according to Islam .
I object to this,  and I pointing out  that muslims lie when they say "Islam forbids the killing of innocent people ."


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## Mr.Fitnah (Jan 30, 2010)

Many muslims like to say " Islam forbids the killing of innocent people"
Please provide Islamic scripture to prove unequivocally non muslims are innocent.


----------



## Colin (Jan 30, 2010)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> Kalam said:
> 
> 
> > MajikMyst said:
> ...



She's obviously a non-believer. Don't believe a damn thing anyone else says!


----------



## Mr.Fitnah (Feb 21, 2010)

Many muslims like to say " Islam forbids the killing of innocent people"
Please provide Islamic scripture to prove unequivocally non muslims are innocent.


----------



## Mr.Fitnah (Mar 3, 2010)

Many muslims like to say " Islam forbids the killing of innocent people"
Please provide Islamic scripture to prove unequivocally non muslims are innocent.


----------



## Tariq (Mar 19, 2010)

Mr Fitna,

You pervert Islam. You are sick and you are not Muslim. Allah will judge you harshly.

Allah Akbar


----------



## Mr.Fitnah (Mar 19, 2010)

Tariq said:


> Mr Fitna,
> 
> You pervert Islam. You are sick and you are not Muslim. Allah will judge you harshly.
> 
> Allah Akbar



I am not a muslim,  allah is a rock, I reveal what the  scripture says about  jihad  and infidels.


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## Tariq (Mar 19, 2010)

Allah is GOD, how dare you mock Him.


----------



## PixieStix (Mar 19, 2010)

Tariq said:


> Allah is GOD, how dare you mock Him.




Allah is a rock, the blackstone of Mecca. A metorite.


----------



## AllieBaba (Mar 19, 2010)

Tariq said:


> Mr Fitna,
> 
> You pervert Islam. You are sick and you are not Muslim. Allah will judge you harshly.
> 
> Allah Akbar



Fitnah's not perverting Islam, he's asking a question.

Is asking a direct question "perversion"?


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## Mr.Fitnah (Mar 19, 2010)

Tariq said:


> Allah is GOD, how dare you mock Him.


I do as I please.
Are you saying mocking Islam is against Islam?


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## Tom Clancy (Mar 19, 2010)

Apparently if you question Islam your going to be punished by Allah... 

Can't wait.


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## Diuretic (Mar 19, 2010)

As I understand it, "Allah" is Arabic for "God."  Muslims worship Allah/God as the one true God.  Christians worship God.  Jews worship God.  You're all worshipping the same creator, you just use different words for the creator.


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## Jurginvoncelle (Mar 19, 2010)

According to Islamic teachings, the Quran is a revelation from God, which served as the basis for the formation of a sophisticated civilization. Like all other civilizations, Islamic civilization has rules, which govern the interaction of the Islamic polity with other nations and identity groups.

 Within the Muslim state, non-Muslims are free to continue the practice of their religion. Their forceful conversion is strictly forbidden.

 Islam teaches in the Quran:
 "Let there be no compulsion in [accepting] religion!" (2:256).

 Similarly, the Quran presents a set of teachings, which serve as the basis for a developed system of international relations. 
For example, Islam teaches in the Quran: 

"if your enemy inclines towards peace, then reciprocate, and trust in God," (8:61).

Hence, we find in the Quran the basis for peaceful relations with non-Muslim nations, including truces, trade, educational exchanges, and other facets of normal life.

Acceptable?


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## Mr.Fitnah (Mar 19, 2010)

Jurginvoncelle said:


> According to Islamic teachings, the Quran is a revelation from God, which served as the basis for the formation of a sophisticated civilization. Like all other civilizations, Islamic civilization has rules, which govern the interaction of the Islamic polity with other nations and identity groups.
> 
> Within the Muslim state, non-Muslims are free to continue the practice of their religion. Their forceful conversion is strictly forbidden.
> 
> ...


No.
Islam Question and Answer - There is no compulsion to accept Islam


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## Mr.Fitnah (Mar 19, 2010)

Diuretic said:


> As I understand it, "Allah" is Arabic for "God."  Muslims worship Allah/God as the one true God.  Christians worship God.  Jews worship God.  You're all worshipping the same creator, you just use different words for the creator.


Allah is arabic the The god  ,the arabic for  god in arabic is Il ah.


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## THE LIGHT (Mar 20, 2010)

Diuretic said:


> As I understand it, "Allah" is Arabic for "God." Muslims worship Allah/God as the one true God. Christians worship God. Jews worship God. You're all worshipping the same creator, you just use different words for the creator.


 
Not so

Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: but he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also. 
-1 John 2:22-23


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## Diuretic (Mar 20, 2010)

THE LIGHT said:


> Diuretic said:
> 
> 
> > As I understand it, "Allah" is Arabic for "God." Muslims worship Allah/God as the one true God. Christians worship God. Jews worship God. You're all worshipping the same creator, you just use different words for the creator.
> ...



Yes, Mr Fitnah corrected me on that.

But the Christian exhortation is similar to that in the Koran where idolaters are warned away from their false gods in favour of Allah, the one true God.


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## Mr.Fitnah (Mar 20, 2010)

*Yah*uweh, is God&#8217;s name. His personal proper name it means "I Am," and "I Exist."
"Jesus" is actually *Yah*ushua; it means "Yah Saves." 
"Jew" is  *Yah*uwdy; it means "related to Yah." 
Detecting a trend here?


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## Mr.Fitnah (Mar 20, 2010)

Yahuweh, is God&#8217;s name. His personal and proper name it means "I Am," and "I Exist."


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## Mr.Fitnah (Mar 20, 2010)

Many muslims like to say " Islam forbids the killing of innocent people"
Please provide Islamic scripture to prove unequivocally non muslims are innocent.


----------



## Diuretic (Mar 20, 2010)

I wish I knew a lot more about the three Abrahamic religions but I don't.  But from the little I do know this is how it works out.  I will welcome correction.

Wait a minute, this is a dreadful thread drift.  I shall start a new one.


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## Mr.Fitnah (Mar 21, 2010)

Diuretic said:


> I wish I knew a lot more about the three Abrahamic religions but I don't.  But from the little I do know this is how it works out.  I will welcome correction.
> 
> Wait a minute, this is a dreadful thread drift.  I shall start a new one.


Thank you.
Many muslims like to say " Islam forbids the killing of innocent people"
Please provide Islamic scripture to prove unequivocally non muslims are innocent.


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## Tariq (Mar 21, 2010)

There are no innocent people. All mankind is guilty, all men will pay for their sins.


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## Mr.Fitnah (Apr 20, 2010)

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uJkP6sRXFdg&feature=player_embedded]YouTube - South Park: The Dust of this Will Never Settle Down[/ame]


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## PixieStix (Apr 20, 2010)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> YouTube - South Park: The Dust of this Will Never Settle Down



Yep, this is the TRUE face of islam


The posting on Revolutionmuslim.com says: We have to warn Matt and Trey  that what they are doing is stupid and they will probably wind up like  Theo Van Gogh for airing this show. This is not a threat, but a warning  of the reality of what will likely happen to them.


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## Kalam (Apr 20, 2010)

PixieStix said:


> Mr.Fitnah said:
> 
> 
> > YouTube - South Park: The Dust of this Will Never Settle Down
> ...


 
Like you would know.


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## Mr.Fitnah (Apr 20, 2010)

Many muslims like to say " Islam forbids the killing of innocent people"
Please provide Islamic scripture to prove unequivocally non muslims are innocent.


----------



## Kalam (Apr 20, 2010)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> Many muslims like to say " Islam forbids the killing of innocent people"
> Please provide Islamic scripture to prove unequivocally non muslims are innocent.



Haven't we already established that, in your mind, nothing can be considered "unequivocal"?


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## Mr.Fitnah (Apr 20, 2010)

That is not proof ,Please provide proof non muslims are innocent according to Islamic scripture.


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## Kalam (Apr 20, 2010)

"Error. Unable to process query. Brain malfunction. Brain malfunction. Please provide Islamic scripture."


----------



## Mr.Fitnah (Apr 20, 2010)

Many muslims like to say " Islam forbids the killing of innocent people"
Please provide Islamic scripture to prove unequivocally non muslims are innocent.


----------



## Mr.Fitnah (Jun 5, 2010)

I am not a muslim, I  have some concerns about Islam,
Many muslims like to say " Islam forbids the killing of innocent people"
Please provide Islamic scripture to prove unequivocally non muslims are innocent.


----------



## FA_Q2 (Jun 10, 2010)

95 pages and no answer yet?  I await the answer with you....

After reading through the first 20 pages I think we may both be waiting a long time.


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## Neubarth (Jun 10, 2010)

According to the Book of Revelation, JHVH is going to remove the few true Christians from the Earth before he allows the world to destroy itself in what looks like a nuclear holocaust.

What a mess the world will be once that war starts.

Notice in the Book of Matthew (quoted below in my signature) that when the Apostles ask Jesus about that time, he says that when the attacks come on Israel that people will not have a second to retreat to their houses to gather anything that they consider valuable. Their only recourse is to "Head to the hills" and hide in the caves to save themselves from destruction.


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## mal (Jun 10, 2010)

Neubarth said:


> According to the Book of Revelation, JHVH is going to remove the few true Christians from the Earth before he allows the world to destroy itself in what looks like a nuclear holocaust.
> 
> What a mess the world will be once that war starts.
> 
> Notice in the Book of Matthew (quoted below in my signature) that when the Apostles ask Jesus about that time, he says that when the attacks come on Israel that people will not have a second to retreat to their houses to gather anything that they consider valuable. Their only recourse is to "Head to the hills" and hide in the caves to save themselves from destruction.



Does it say anything about ammo?... How much to take?



peace...


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## Skull Pilot (Jun 10, 2010)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> > Mr. Fitnah
> ...



What you are failing to realize is that Muslims believe that anyone who doesn't put his nose in the dirt and his ass in the air 5 times a day is guilty of being an infidel therefore worthy of being killed.


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## Neubarth (Jun 10, 2010)

Diuretic said:


> As I understand it, "Allah" is Arabic for "God." Muslims worship Allah/God as the one true God. Christians worship God. Jews worship God. You're all worshipping the same creator, you just use different words for the creator.


 
Allah was the shortened name for the Moon God, one of hundreds of gods the arabs used to worship.  Allah is short for Ba'Allah which stands for Baal the god of the Caanites who required constant human blood sacrifice, like in the beheading videos you can see daily on Al Jazeera.com  

When Jehovah (JHVH) asked Abraham to offer up his son Isaac as a sacrifice, Abraham was going to do as requested when JHVH told him that He does not require human blood sacrifice but wanted to set that as an example against the other gods that the people worshiped.

Jesus, though killed by the Romans as a criminal, served to further prove that point for all humanity for all eternity.  God was willing to accept the death of his own son to take the place of any other human offering so that humans no longer had to sacrifice anything to seek God's forgiveness for their sins.  

All people had to do after that was to confess their sins and ask for Gods forgiveness.  It they were earnest about turning away from sin, all they had to do was ask God to guide them and help them in their daily walk.  In other words, God became a personal God who would walk with you and talk with you and help you through trials and tribulations.

Most people of the world do not want to hear this, and want to continue in their sin.  That is their choice.  The few who do receive JHVH into their lives are commonly called Christians.


----------



## Neubarth (Jun 10, 2010)

tha malcontent said:


> Neubarth said:
> 
> 
> > According to the Book of Revelation, JHVH is going to remove the few true Christians from the Earth before he allows the world to destroy itself in what looks like a nuclear holocaust.
> ...



No, Mal, it just says to run to the hills.  That by the way is where the expression "Head to the hills" originated.  In the 1800's many preachers had hell fire and brimstone sermons that tied the head to the hills statement by Jesus to the great and vengeful "Day of the Lord" judgment period.

They did not have enough discernment to realize that the Bible was predicting a horrific cataclysm for the whole Earth that more than likely would be caused by man himself.


----------



## Neubarth (Jun 10, 2010)

Skull Pilot said:


> Mr.Fitnah said:
> 
> 
> > Sunni Man said:
> ...



For years, I have heard Islam called, "That Butt Sniffing Religion." because that is what it looks like everybody is doing.


----------



## JoLouis (Jun 10, 2010)

They're not butt sniffing, they're carpet kissing, as in: Mohammed was a carpet kisser.


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## Liability (Jun 10, 2010)

JoLouis said:


> They're not butt sniffing, they're carpet kissing, as in: Mohammed was a carpet kisser.



Nope.  In a room full of people "kissing" carpets, with those many behinds stuck up in the air, the guys in line behind the first carpet kisser are getting a heavy whiff of butt.  

What do you expect of a religion premised on the lunatic musing of a rabid bitch like Mohammud the Mutt?  Lots of dogs sniff butt.


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## Mr.Fitnah (Jun 10, 2010)

Skull Pilot said:


> Mr.Fitnah said:
> 
> 
> > Sunni Man said:
> ...



I have proven that  to the extent anything  can be proven on earth , this  thread is a record of that proof.


----------



## JoLouis (Jun 11, 2010)

Islam isn't even a real religion, it's a collection of pedophiles and other sexual deviants who got together to legalize their perversions.


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## Mr.Fitnah (Aug 5, 2010)

Many muslims like to say "Islam forbids the killing of innocent people", I'm asking for some one to prove unequivocally using Islamic scripture that none muslims are innocent


----------



## Hister (Aug 6, 2010)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> *Many muslims* like to say "Islam forbids the killing of innocent people", I'm asking for some one to prove unequivocally using Islamic scripture that none muslims are innocent



Like who?


----------



## hipeter924 (Aug 6, 2010)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> Many muslims like to say "Islam forbids the killing of innocent people", I'm asking for some one to prove unequivocally using Islamic scripture that none muslims are innocent


[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1-o4l7Mgj5s&feature=related]YouTube - &#x202a;Islam - Mandates Violence Against Unbeliever&#x202c;&lrm;[/ame]

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pV4nemgNNK4&feature=related]YouTube - &#x202a;Islam - Mandates Violence Against Unbelievers (part 2)&#x202c;&lrm;[/ame]


----------



## Mr.Fitnah (Aug 17, 2010)

Kalam said:


> Mr.Fitnah said:
> 
> 
> > Kalam said:
> ...



2:190. And fight in the Way of Allâh[] those who fight you, *but transgress* not the limits. Truly, *Allâh likes not the transgressors.* [This Verse is the first one that was revealed in connection with Jihâd, but it was supplemented by another (V.9:36)].

2:191. And kill them wherever you find them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out. *And Al-Fitnah[] is worse than killing.* And fight not with them at Al-Masjid-al-Harâm (the sanctuary at Makkah),[] unless they (first) fight you there. But if they attack you, then kill them. Such is the recompense of the disbelievers.

2:192. But if they cease, then Allâh is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.

2:193. And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allâh) and (all and every kind of) worship is for Allâh (Alone).[] But if they cease, let there be
*no transgression except*
*no transgression except* 
*no transgression except* 
 against Az-Zâlimûn (the polytheists, and wrong-doers, etc

Shirk is worse than Killing

Since Jihad involves killing and shedding the blood of men, Allah indicated that these men are committing disbelief in 

Allah, associating with Him (in the worship) and hindering from His path, and this is a much greater evil and more disastrous than killing. Abu Malik commented about what Allah said:


(And Al-Fitnah is worse than killing.) Meaning what you (disbelievers) are committing is much worse than killing.'' Abu 

Al-`Aliyah, Mujahid, Sa`id bin Jubayr, `Ikrimah, Al-Hasan, Qatadah, Ad-Dahhak and Ar-Rabi` bin Anas said that what Allah 

said:

(And Al-Fitnah is worse than killing.) "Shirk (polytheism) is worse than killing.''
Tafsir.com Tafsir Ibn Kathir


----------



## Mr.Fitnah (Aug 18, 2010)

Kalam said:


> The Infidel said:
> 
> 
> > Kalam said:
> ...





Kalam said:


> Mr.Fitnah said:
> 
> 
> > The vast majority of muslims in the world  see your ideas  as heretical and will bring you to heel  when the time comes.
> ...





http://www.usmessageboard.com/1374719-post416.html


----------



## Mr.Fitnah (Sep 6, 2010)

Now Imam Kalam backs  away from   there is no such thing as internal abrogation  his entire defense of Islam was based on that 




Mr.Fitnah said:


> Kalam said:
> 
> 
> > Mr.Fitnah said:
> ...


----------



## Mr.Fitnah (Sep 6, 2010)

Many muslims like to say "Islam forbids the  killing of innocent people"
Please prove none muslims are innocent according to Islamic scripture.


----------



## Mr.Fitnah (Sep 28, 2010)

As the world turns


Kalam said:


> Mr.Fitnah said:
> 
> 
> > 'Umdat as-Salik wa 'Uddat an-Nasik
> ...





Kalam said:


> Ok, I actually read some of Marc's posts for a change. Notice how the Jew ignores his religion's commandment to use the mouth for circumcisions.
> 
> The full quote from 'Umdat as-Salik ("Reliance of the Traveler", a legal manual used by the Shafi'i school):
> 
> ...



http://www.usmessageboard.com/2786398-post580.html
http://www.usmessageboard.com/1426494-post37.html


----------



## Kalam (Sep 28, 2010)

Who said I believe in everything written in RotT? Somebody posted an inaccurate quote and I corrected them. In your dimunitive brain, I'm sure that is considered tantamount to belief in something. 

Running out of straws to grasp at?


----------



## Hister (Sep 29, 2010)

Kalam said:


> Who said I believe in everything written in RotT? Somebody posted an inaccurate quote and I corrected them. In your dimunitive brain, I'm sure that is considered tantamount to belief in something.
> 
> Running out of straws to grasp at?



Islam forbids kalam to say anything intelligent.


----------



## Colin (Sep 29, 2010)

Hister said:


> Kalam said:
> 
> 
> > Who said I believe in everything written in RotT? Somebody posted an inaccurate quote and I corrected them. In your dimunitive brain, I'm sure that is considered tantamount to belief in something.
> ...



I wonder who forbids Hister to say anything intelligent?


----------



## Mr.Fitnah (Sep 29, 2010)

Many muslims like to say "Islam forbids the killing of innocent people"
Please prove none muslims are innocent according to Islamic scripture.


----------



## logical4u (Sep 29, 2010)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> Many muslims like to say "Islam forbids the killing of innocent people"
> Please prove none muslims are innocent according to Islamic scripture.



Are you saying the "religion of peace" is being deceptive by telling non-believers they will not kill innocents; while the whole time the muslims are laughing into their sleeves because they believe "non-believers" are sinners (therefore, not innocent)?  Surely, the faithful would have courage to speak truthfully and not perpetuate such deception.


----------



## Hister (Sep 30, 2010)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> Many muslims like to say "Islam forbids the killing of innocent people"
> Please prove none muslims are innocent according to Islamic scripture.



Akmed, where does it say that they're guilty?


----------



## Mr.Fitnah (Sep 30, 2010)

logical4u said:


> Mr.Fitnah said:
> 
> 
> > Many muslims like to say "Islam forbids the killing of innocent people"
> ...


Laughing  all day long.
Muslims cant get away with  their plans if they dont lie .



> If a praiseworthy aim is attainable through both telling the truth and lying, it is unlawful to accomplish through lying because there is no need for it.
> &#8220;&#8217;When it is possible to achieve such an aim by lying but not telling the truth, it is permissible to lie if the goal is permissible, and it is obligatory to lie if the goal is obligatory.
> Umdat as-Salik Pg. 745



5:32.For this reason did We prescribe to the children of Israel that whoever slays a soul, unless it be for manslaughter or for mischief in the land, it is as though he slew all men; and whoever keeps it alive, it is as though he kept alive all men; and certainly Our messengers came to them with clear arguments, but even after that many of them certainly act extravagantly in the land.

5:33	 	The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His messenger and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement,
Compared Translations of the meaning of the Quran - 5 / Shakir

Meaning of Mischief

In his Tafsir, As-Suddi said that Ibn `Abbas and Ibn Mas`ud commented,

[&#1608;&#1614;&#1573;&#1616;&#1584;&#1614;&#1575; &#1602;&#1616;&#1610;&#1604;&#1614; &#1604;&#1614;&#1607;&#1615;&#1605;&#1618; &#1604;&#1575;&#1614; &#1578;&#1615;&#1601;&#1618;&#1587;&#1616;&#1583;&#1615;&#1608;&#1575;&#1618; &#1601;&#1616;&#1609; &#1575;&#1604;&#1571;&#1614;&#1585;&#1618;&#1590;&#1616; &#1602;&#1614;&#1575;&#1604;&#1615;&#1608;&#1575;&#1618; &#1573;&#1616;&#1606;&#1614;&#1617;&#1605;&#1614;&#1575; &#1606;&#1614;&#1581;&#1618;&#1606;&#1615; &#1605;&#1615;&#1589;&#1618;&#1604;&#1616;&#1581;&#1615;&#1608;&#1606;&#1614; ]

(And when it is said to them: "Do not make mischief on the earth,'' they say: "We are only peacemakers.'') "They are the hypocrites. As for,

[&#1604;&#1575;&#1614; &#1578;&#1615;&#1601;&#1618;&#1587;&#1616;&#1583;&#1615;&#1608;&#1575;&#1618; &#1601;&#1616;&#1609; &#1575;&#1604;&#1571;&#1614;&#1585;&#1618;&#1590;&#1616;]

("Do not make mischief on the earth''), that is disbelief and acts of disobedience.'' Abu Ja`far said that Ar-Rabi` bin Anas said that Abu Al-`Aliyah said that Allah's statement,

[&#1608;&#1614;&#1573;&#1616;&#1584;&#1614;&#1575; &#1602;&#1616;&#1610;&#1604;&#1614; &#1604;&#1614;&#1607;&#1615;&#1605;&#1618; &#1604;&#1575;&#1614; &#1578;&#1615;&#1601;&#1618;&#1587;&#1616;&#1583;&#1615;&#1608;&#1575;&#1618; &#1601;&#1616;&#1609; &#1575;&#1604;&#1571;&#1614;&#1585;&#1618;&#1590;&#1616;]

(And when it is said to them: "Do not make mischief on the earth,''), means, "Do not commit acts of disobedience on the earth. Their mischief is disobeying Allah, because whoever disobeys Allah on the earth, or commands that Allah be disobeyed, he has committed mischief on the earth. Peace on both the earth and in the heavens is ensured (and earned) through obedience (to Allah).'' Ar-Rabi` bin Anas and Qatadah said similarly.

Tafsir.com Tafsir Ibn Kathir

And finally
Verily, Allah loves the doers of good.) Therefore, forgive those who err against you. Qatadah said that this Ayah was abrogated with Allah's statement,

[&#1602;&#1614;&#1600;&#1578;&#1616;&#1604;&#1615;&#1608;&#1575;&#1618; &#1575;&#1604;&#1617;&#1614;&#1584;&#1616;&#1610;&#1606;&#1614; &#1604;&#1575;&#1614; &#1610;&#1615;&#1572;&#1618;&#1605;&#1616;&#1606;&#1615;&#1608;&#1606;&#1614; &#1576;&#1616;&#1575;&#1604;&#1604;&#1617;&#1614;&#1607;&#1616; &#1608;&#1614;&#1604;&#1575;&#1614; &#1576;&#1616;&#1575;&#1604;&#1618;&#1610;&#1614;&#1608;&#1618;&#1605;&#1616; &#1575;&#1604;&#1575;&#1617;&#1612;&#1582;&#1616;&#1585;&#1616;]

(Fight against those who believe not in Allah, nor in the Last Day).


http://www.tafsir.com/default.asp?sid=5&tid=13518

8:39. And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and polytheism: i.e. worshipping others besides Allâh) and the religion (worship) will all be for Allâh Alone [in the whole of the world[]]. But if they cease (worshipping others besides Allâh), then certainly, Allâh is All-Seer of what they do.

[ 2:193.. And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allâh) and (all and every kind of) worship is for Allâh (Alone).[] But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against Az-Zâlimûn (the polytheists, and wrong-doers, etc


----------



## Mr.Fitnah (Oct 14, 2010)

Maybe sunni will take another run at it.


----------



## Mr.Fitnah (Oct 15, 2010)

Madeline -

I don't need instructions.
I don't need to talk to an imam or a scholar.
The opinions I post come from imam's and scholars, they are not my opinions. 

If you have a "spritual leader" whose opinion on matters of Islam you trust have them come here an make a case that non muslims are innocent.

This is the thread for them to bring their proof if they have it.
http://www.usmessageboard.com/religion-and-ethics/81748-islam-forbids.html


----------



## Mr.Fitnah (Dec 2, 2010)

Many muslims like to say "Islam forbids the killing of innocent people"
Please prove none muslims are innocent according to Islamic scripture.


----------



## Marc39 (Dec 2, 2010)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> Many muslims like to say "Islam forbids the killing of innocent people"
> Please prove none muslims are innocent according to Islamic scripture.



Islam demands the killing of innocent people, as long as they are infidels.

Quran 4:89...


> They wish that you reject Faith, as they have rejected Faith, and thus that you all become equal like one another. So take not protectors or friends from them, till they emigrate in the Way of Allâh (to Muhammad SAW). *But if they turn back from Islâm, take hold of them and kill them wherever you find them, and take neither protectors or friends nor helpers from them.
> *


----------



## Foxfyre (Dec 11, 2010)

Proof texting from the Qu-ran, i.e. plucking a verse out of the whole, generally distorts the message that is there just as proof texting the Bible does the same.

There is much in the Bible written as commands that few, if any, Christians would accept, endorse, or condone today.  There is much in the Qu-ran that most Muslims do not accept, endorse, or condone today.

All you have to do is look at the hateful activities of Westboro Baptist Church to know there are still angry, hateful, ugly people within Christianity.  It is a constant struggle to instruct some that these represent a tiny minority of those who call themselves Christian and their actions are deplored by all the rest of us.

It is tougher though for Muslims who can become targets if they openly criticize or condemn activities of angry, hateful, ugly Muslims.  And yet honesty requires that we acknowledge prominent websites like this in which Muslims reject the angry, hateful, vindictive side of Islam:

Muslims Condemn Terrorist Attacks

The fact remains that Islam's goal is to bring all the world under the authority of Allah.  And it is difficult to read the Qu'ran and come to any conclusion other than it is okay to do that by force.

And the fact remains that Christianity's goal is to bring all the world to salvation in Christ.  However, except for a tiny minority of Chrsitian sects, that goal is accomplished by attraction and not by force.

If we could really explore and discuss these things without attempting to demonize each other, I think these discussions would be a lot more edifying for everybody.


----------



## Mr.Fitnah (Dec 11, 2010)

That link you posted is exactly what Im talking about.
How does Islam define innocent?
Scripture  makes it clear only believers are innocent.


----------



## Foxfyre (Dec 11, 2010)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> That link you posted is exactly what Im talking about.
> How does Islam define innocent?
> Scripture  makes it clear only believers are innocent.



There is an important distinction, however, between the extremist view that all Muslims intend or want to harm us and will harm us given the opportunity, and the more accurate view that most Muslims do see the final victory as an entire world under authority of Allah.  These are not necessarily the same thing.

To discount all the evidence in that website that shows Muslims to be reasonable people who aren't intent on murdering all the infidels is, in my opinion, just plain wrong.

But to discount the fact that in ALL countries in which Islam becomes a compelling presence there will be a push to implement more and more Islamic law is at best naive.

To discount the fact that in ALL countries in which Islam becomes the majority there is loss of individual liberties and freedom is naive at best and suicidal to the American concepts of liberty and justice at worst.


----------



## Mr.Fitnah (Dec 11, 2010)

I know there are bad muslims who dont follow scripture, My interest is what the scripture says.


----------



## Foxfyre (Dec 11, 2010)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> I know there are bad muslims who dont follow scripture, My interest is what the scripture says.



I find it all fascinating.

I just think those who bury their heads in the sand and don't see what is actually happening in the world in the name of political correctness are either the most naive of the naive or they are idiots.  I have no problem understanding that Islam will seek to increase its power until it has absolute power wherever it exists in large numbers.  And I have no problem knowing that Islam is not a defender of individual liberties, human rights, women's rights, or many concepts that Americans hold dear.

I can understand that while appreciating and loving my Muslim friends, neighbors, and colleagues in real life and here on USMB.


----------



## Mr.Fitnah (Dec 13, 2010)

Wrong thread.


----------



## Sunni Man (Dec 13, 2010)

Nice post *aaa*


----------



## Foxfyre (Dec 13, 2010)

Sunni Man said:


> Nice post *aaa*



Yes it was and I think we non-Muslims are pretty tunnel visioned and narrow minded as well as tolerant when we fail to acknowledge such passages.  But honesty requires acknowledgment of Islamic teaching that is not so charitable too, yes?  So the bottom line for me is to understand that somebody like you or my Muslim neighbors or my Muslim colleagues do like me and wish no harm to befall me.   At the same time, it is foolish to ignore that Islam believes it is commanded to put the whole world under the authority of Allah and that many don't mind using force to do that.

Likewise, it is foolish to pretend that the Bible contains only scripture that is full of love, charity and grace.  There is much in the Bible that most of us don't condone and would never willingly allow now.  At the same time it is foolish to ignore that Christianity sees it as their command that all ultimately should hear the Gospel and all have opportunity to accept Christ.   Most Christians, however, do see that this is accomplished by attraction and not be force.


----------



## zeitgeist2012 (Dec 14, 2010)

Here is a guy who teaches scripture and the history behind it. He is very good and accurate....

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LlABElJPk-E[/ame]

Michael Rood | A Rood Awakening | Hebrew Calendar | Messianic Teachings

10 FAILURES OF THE U.S. GOV'T TO COMBAT THE ISLAMIC THREAT

http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/political-correctness-kills-study-show...


----------



## Mr.Fitnah (Dec 14, 2010)

Wrong thread folks, Kind of off topic.
This thread is about how muslims like to say " Islam forbids the killing of innocent people"
Please provide scripture to proves unequivocally non muslims are innocent.


----------



## zeitgeist2012 (Dec 14, 2010)

Opinions are like....

Is that you ...Satan?

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p_2SnaydDMA&NR=1[/ame]

http://www.buzzle.com/editorials/2-18-2006-89267.asp

http://fspp.net/warn poss.htm

http://www.gotquestions.org/psychological-demon.html


----------



## zeitgeist2012 (Dec 15, 2010)

To stay on topic...

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LJz4FKIFkAY[/ame]

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H8dxmoKkqdY&feature=related[/ame]


----------



## Sunni Man (Dec 15, 2010)

zeitgeist2012 said:


> Here is a guy who teaches scripture and the history behind it. He is very good and accurate....
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LlABElJPk-E
> 
> ...


The guy is a liar and a


----------



## zeitgeist2012 (Dec 15, 2010)

Such DENIAL of the TRUTH.... Allah has blinded you because he is the DEVIL....

HERE IS THE TRUE NATURE OF YOUR FALSE god...

TruthTube. tv 18+ Muslim 12yr Old BUTCHERS Hostage. TruthTube.Tv


----------



## Sunni Man (Dec 15, 2010)

zeitgeist2012 said:


> Such DENIAL of the TRUTH.... Allah has blinded you because he is the DEVIL....
> 
> HERE IS THE TRUE NATURE OF YOUR FALSE god...
> 
> TruthTube. tv 18+ Muslim 12yr Old BUTCHERS Hostage. TruthTube.Tv


I hear Nurse Ratchet calling you.

Must be time for your anti psychotic meds.


----------



## Mr.Fitnah (Dec 15, 2010)

Wrong thread folks, Kind of off topic.
This thread is about how muslims like to say " Islam forbids the killing of innocent people"
Please provide scripture to proves unequivocally non muslims are innocent.


----------



## zeitgeist2012 (Dec 15, 2010)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> Wrong thread folks, Kind of off topic.
> This thread is about how muslims like to say " Islam forbids the killing of innocent people"
> Please provide scripture to proves unequivocally non muslims are innocent.



Sounds as if you and nutbag are trying to justify the killing of non-muslimes....

No one is without sin except for Yahshua.... This is why El-Yahweh judges and punishes them who do not keep his word...and the word became flesh.... Not Allah and his false prophets....

Those who believe on the lamb shall never parish....


----------



## Jack Fate (Dec 15, 2010)

Sunni Man said:


> zeitgeist2012 said:
> 
> 
> > Such DENIAL of the TRUTH.... Allah has blinded you because he is the DEVIL....
> ...



You are blind.  You're a pawn of the devil.  Your soul is corrupt.  May the Living God, Christ Jesus have mercy on your soul.


----------



## Sunni Man (Dec 15, 2010)

Jack Fate said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> > zeitgeist2012 said:
> ...


  you are a pure hater Jack Fate


----------



## Jack Fate (Dec 15, 2010)

Sunni Man said:


> Jack Fate said:
> 
> 
> > Sunni Man said:
> ...



I hate evil.  Islam is evil.


----------



## zeitgeist2012 (Dec 15, 2010)

Jack Fate said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> > Jack Fate said:
> ...



Well said Jack....


----------



## Stitchman (Dec 15, 2010)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> Wrong thread folks, Kind of off topic.
> This thread is about how muslims like to say " Islam forbids the killing of innocent people"
> Please provide scripture to proves unequivocally non muslims are innocent.


Can I raise the question that the answer to your question may be irrelevant? Do the most atrocious parts of any religion define it?


----------



## Mr.Fitnah (Dec 16, 2010)

Stitchman said:


> Mr.Fitnah said:
> 
> 
> > Wrong thread folks, Kind of off topic.
> ...



Im not aware of any ideology that calls for the eradication of all non members other than Islam.
Feel free to start your own thread to explore the possibilities


----------



## Foxfyre (Dec 16, 2010)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> Stitchman said:
> 
> 
> > Mr.Fitnah said:
> ...



Again, if you cherry pick verses from the Qu'ran, you can make it look like the most peaceful, benevolent, enlightened religion that has ever been.  But the Qu'ran taken in its entirety is also a religion that demands religious purity--all must be under the authority of Allah.  Noone is required to believe.  But all are required to respect and obey Allah's laws and the penaities for failure to do that are severe, even unto death.

Other religions have historically been as severe, but most have evolved and cast off that kind of mentality.  You are correct that among all the world's major religion, Islam stands alone as the one with a mission/mandate to bring the whole world under its authority and teaches that it is okay to terrorize, kill, maim, and destroy in order to do that.

As I have discussed with honorable and thoughtful Muslims, every Muslim does not agree with that mandate.  But even the enlightened Muslim knows and understands that historically, wherever Islam gains sufficient numbers, it will demand accommodation of its laws.  And wherever Islam gains a voting majority, there will be loss of individual liberties, choices, and options.


----------



## zeitgeist2012 (Dec 16, 2010)

The Qu'ran like all other religions except for JudeoChristianity lacks prophecy.... Yahweh's prophecy is 100% so far....


----------



## Sunni Man (Dec 16, 2010)

Foxfyre said:


> As I have discussed with honorable and thoughtful Muslims, every Muslim does not agree with that mandate.  But even the *enlightened Muslim *knows and understands that historically, wherever Islam gains sufficient numbers, it will demand accommodation of its laws.  And wherever Islam gains a voting majority, there will be loss of individual liberties, choices, and options.



What exactly makes a muslim an "enlightened Muslim"??


----------



## Tom Clancy (Dec 16, 2010)

Muslim Sensitivity Training (Season 10, Episode 3) - Video Clips - South Park Studios


----------



## Foxfyre (Dec 17, 2010)

Sunni Man said:


> Foxfyre said:
> 
> 
> > As I have discussed with honorable and thoughtful Muslims, every Muslim does not agree with that mandate.  But even the *enlightened Muslim *knows and understands that historically, wherever Islam gains sufficient numbers, it will demand accommodation of its laws.  And wherever Islam gains a voting majority, there will be loss of individual liberties, choices, and options.
> ...



I didn't mean the term to be offensive.  But Muslim friends and associates who show respect for other religions and beliefs and who support concepts of individual liberties and freedom I consider among the 'enlightened'.  That could be a poor choice of words to describe it of course.

Among those I would count you, frankly, but I am thinking of groups like Islam for Today and American Islamic Forum for Democracy.  Dr. Zuhdi Jasser with the latter group has become one of my heroes.


----------



## Ropey (Dec 17, 2010)

Title said:
			
		

> Islam Forbids



Islam forbids? 

We just laugh at ourselves






HE'BREW The Chosen Beer

But always remember:


----------



## Sunni Man (Dec 17, 2010)

Foxfyre said:


> I didn't mean the term to be offensive.  But Muslim friends and associates who show respect for other religions and beliefs and who support concepts of individual liberties and freedom I consider among the 'enlightened'.  That could be a poor choice of words to describe it of course.
> 
> Among those I would count you, frankly, but I am thinking of groups like Islam for Today and American Islamic Forum for Democracy.  Dr. Zuhdi Jasser with the latter group has become one of my heroes.



Thanks for the nod in my favor Foxfyre.  

I am a key member of the largest mosque in the north east. We host a weekly interfaith breakfast at our mosque. Many Christians and Jews attend that. Plus we have monthly speaking events at churches and synogoges; and Rabbi's and Priests come speak at our mosque on various topics. 

Like I have stated before on this forum.  America will eventually have it's own Americanized version of Islam. That reflects American culture, values, and traditions. But it will take one of two more generations for this to happen. As the mosques become populated with American born muslims and less foreign born muslims. 

btw Islamicity.com is another great site.


----------



## Mr.Fitnah (Dec 17, 2010)

Wrong thread folks, Kind of off topic.
This thread is about how muslims like to say " Islam forbids the killing of innocent people"
Please provide scripture to proves unequivocally non muslims are innocent.


----------



## Sunni Man (Dec 17, 2010)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> Wrong thread folks, Kind of off topic.
> This thread is about how muslims like to say " Islam forbids the killing of innocent people"
> Please provide scripture to proves unequivocally non muslims are innocent.


Mr. Fitnuts your question was answered a long, long time ago by Kalam and myself many times over.

Yet, because you didn't get an answer to fit your twisted agenda.

You keep asking the same tired question again and again.

Face it.

Your idiotic question has ran it's course.

Time to retire it to the Islamophobic scrap pile.


----------



## Mr.Fitnah (Dec 17, 2010)

Sunni Man said:


> Mr.Fitnah said:
> 
> 
> > Wrong thread folks, Kind of off topic.
> ...



You made no attempts to answer any of my  questions  you quit after telling a story about apple pie and baseball
Post 19&#9660;


Sunni Man said:


> Mr. Fitnah, your veiled questions and accusations against Islam and Muslims is getting very tedious and basically boring.
> 
> So unless you have something of substance or interest to address.
> 
> I am going to bow out of this useless dialogue.



If you have scriptural proof non believers are innocent post it.
Or link to the proof.



http://www.usmessageboard.com/1340716-post18.html


----------



## Sunni Man (Dec 17, 2010)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> You made no attempts to answer any of my  questions  you quit after telling a story about apple pie and baseball


What have you got against apple pie and baseball?

Are you some kind of anti-American communist??


----------



## Mr.Fitnah (Dec 17, 2010)

Sunni Man said:


> Mr.Fitnah said:
> 
> 
> > You made no attempts to answer any of my  questions  you quit after telling a story about apple pie and baseball
> ...



Wrong thread, Kind of off topic.
This thread is about how muslims like to say " Islam forbids the killing of innocent people"
Please provide scripture to proves unequivocally non muslims are innocent.


----------



## Jack Fate (Dec 18, 2010)

Islam is a slave master and Sunni Man is one of the slaves.  Jesus set us free of religious yokes.  Jesus never sinned.  Mohammed was a child molester and a man of war.


----------



## Sunni Man (Dec 18, 2010)

Jack Fate said:


> Islam is a slave master and Sunni Man is one of the slaves.  Jesus set us free of religious *yokes*.



It's really pathetic how little you know about your own religion Jackie boy.

Kind of sad that a Muslim has to correct you and show you what the Bible says and teaches.  

 Matthew 11:29  (Jesus said) "Take my* yoke *upon you and learn from me,......"


----------



## Mr.Fitnah (Dec 18, 2010)

Sunni Man said:


> Jack Fate said:
> 
> 
> > Islam is a slave master and Sunni Man is one of the slaves.  Jesus set us free of religious *yokes*.
> ...



Right back @ ya


----------



## Mr.Fitnah (Feb 6, 2011)

hipeter924 said:


> Mr.Fitnah said:
> 
> 
> > Many muslims like to say "Islam forbids the killing of innocent people", I'm asking for some one to prove unequivocally using Islamic scripture that none muslims are innocent
> ...



Thanks


----------



## vixi (Feb 7, 2011)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> > Mr. Fitnah
> ...



well, we can start with the wars under Mohammad and his companions, when he orders that no one is to harm, kill or touch, women, children, farmers, even burn crops & trees, no man accept those in combat against them


----------



## Marie888 (Feb 7, 2011)

From the bit of the Quran I've looked at, it seems to me that Mohammad was a mad man, and he perhaps took parts of the Bible he read and twisted the heck out of it for his own little glory; calling himself a prophet - thus getting his own glory.   We also can't forget he was born 570 AD.  He may have been visited by and angel, but it certainly wasn't of the Lord our God.


Interesting - RE: The "Black Stone" at Mecca
///Muslim pilgrims circle the Kaaba as part of the Tawaf ritual of the Hajj. Many of them try, if possible, to stop and kiss the Black Stone, emulating the kiss that Islamic tradition records that it received from the Prophet Muhammad.[4] If they cannot reach it, they point to it on each of their seven circuits around the Kaaba.//  Wiki - Black Stone - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia





.


----------



## Mr.Fitnah (Feb 7, 2011)

vixi said:


> Mr.Fitnah said:
> 
> 
> > Sunni Man said:
> ...


Yes he said that, to do those things would be a transgression.
2:190. And fight in the Way of Allah those who fight you, but transgress not the limits. Truly, Allah likes not the transgressors.
 He  also said:
2:193. And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allah) and (all and every kind of) worship is for Allah (Alone). But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against Az-Zalimun
Translation of Surah Al-Baqarah - NobleQuran.com
http://www.islamawakened.com/quran/2/193/default.htm

'Abdullah bin 'Umar, may Allah be pleased with them, narrated: 
The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) ordered the date-palms of Banu Al-Nadir to be burnt and cut. These palms were at Buwairah. Qutaibah and Ibn Rumh in their versions of the tradition have added: So Allah, the Glorious and Exalted, revealed the verse:  What you (O Muslims) cut down of the palm-trees (of the enemy), or you left them standing on their stems, it was by Leave of Allâh, and in order that He might disgrace the Fâsiqûn (rebellious, disobedient to Allâh)  
Hadith number in Sahih Muslim [Arabic only]: 3284
??????? - ?????? - ???? ???????

Al-Ghazali, a Sufi orthodox Muslim, and follower of the Shafi&#8217;i school of Islamic jurisprudence, wrote this about jihad war and the treatment of the vanquished non-Muslim dhimmi peoples, in the Wadjiz: [4]

[O]ne must go on jihad (i.e., warlike razzias or raids) at least once a year&#8230;one may use a catapult against them [non-Muslims] when they are in a fortress, even if among them are women and children. One may set fire to them and/or drown them&#8230;If a person of the Ahl al-Kitab [People of The Book &#8211; primarily Jews and Christians] is enslaved, his marriage is [automatically] revoked&#8230;One may cut down their trees&#8230;One must destroy their useless books. Jihadists may take as booty whatever they decide&#8230;they may steal as much food as they need&#8230;


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## logical4u (Feb 7, 2011)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> vixi said:
> 
> 
> > Mr.Fitnah said:
> ...



It makes them semm so .....enlightened.  Wonder how those "intellectual elitists" feel about the destruction of "culture" and books?


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## Mr.Fitnah (Apr 14, 2011)

Many muslims like to say "Islam forbids the killing of innocent people", I'm asking for some one to prove unequivocally using Islamic scripture, that none muslims are innocent, Thanks for reading my post.


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## Colin (Apr 15, 2011)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> Many muslims like to say "Islam forbids the killing of innocent people", I'm asking for some one to prove unequivocally using Islamic scripture, that none muslims are innocent, Thanks for reading my post.



Do they say that before or after they murder innocents?


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## Mr.Fitnah (Apr 15, 2011)

Colin said:


> Mr.Fitnah said:
> 
> 
> > Many muslims like to say "Islam forbids the killing of innocent people", I'm asking for some one to prove unequivocally using Islamic scripture, that none muslims are innocent, Thanks for reading my post.
> ...



Its kind of a meme now,  they say it the  media wanders off  to look at something  shiny.


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## Mr.Fitnah (May 2, 2011)

bump 4 Smash_Hits


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## TheBrain (May 2, 2011)

I have zero interest in reading this entire thread, but here is my question. IF Islam is such a peaceful religion, how do so MANY pervert its message? It seems to me that the many are getting the message exactly right.


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## Mr.Fitnah (May 2, 2011)

As  long as some  are  committing acts of terror and mayhem, the rest are  free to fornicate to spread Islam.
Same goal  different  tactic, Islamic dominance.


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## Mr.Fitnah (May 2, 2011)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> As  long as some  are  committing acts of terror and mayhem, the rest are  free to fornicate to spread Islam.
> Same goal  different  tactic, Islamic dominance.



If  you  need the scripture it can be  derived from here.

Commanding the Right & Forbidding the Wrong


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## Mr.Fitnah (May 7, 2011)

If anyone  has a question or doubt about the nature of Islam  consult  this thread and contact me at koastktrl@gmail.com
 there is no
 doubt  about the  links and scripture I provided.
But since i provided the context and the  links it aught not be  a mystery.

Study  and dont  take  antones  word  for it includding  mine  bump this threa once and a while to guide others.

Learn then teach.


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## Mr.Fitnah (Jun 16, 2011)

Muslim Woman Seeks to Revitalize the Institution of Sex-Slavery
Posted By Raymond Ibrahim On June 6, 2011 @ 2:21 pm In Muslim Persecution of Christians 


Last week witnessed popular Muslim preacher Abu Ishaq al-Huwaini boast about how Islam allows Muslims to buy and sell conquered infidel women, so that When I want a sex-slave, I go to the market and pick whichever female I desire and buy her.

This weeks depraved anachronism comes from a Muslim womanpolitical activist and former parliamentary candidate for Kuwaits government, Salwa al-Mutairi: She, too, seeks to revitalize the institution of sex-slavery.

A brief English summary appeared in the Kuwait Times (nothing, of course, in the MSM):

Muslim men who fear being seduced or tempted into immoral behavior by the beauty of their female servants, or even of those servants casting spells on them, would be better to purchase women from an enslaved maid agency for sexual purposes.  She [Mutairi] suggested that special offices could be set up to provide concubines in the same way as domestic staff recruitment agencies currently provide housemaids.  We want our youth to be protected from adultery, said al-Mutairi, suggesting that these maids could be brought as prisoners of war in war-stricken nations like Chechnya to be sold on later to devout merchants.

The Arabic news website, Al Arabiya, has the sordid details, including a video of Mutairi addressing the topic of sex-slavery.  I summarize and translate various excerpts below (note: I am not making any of this up).

The Kuwaiti activist begins by insisting that its of course true that the prophet of Islam legitimized sex-slavery.  She recounts how when she was in Mecca, Islams holiest city, she asked various sheikhs and muftis (learned, authoritative Muslims) about the legality of sex-slavery according to Sharia: they all confirmed it to be perfectly legal; Kuwaiti ulema further pointed out that extra virile menWestern synonymous include lecherous, perverted,  lust-drivenwould do well to purchase sex-slaves to sate their appetites without sinning.

Heres a particularly interesting excerpt from her taped speech on the rules governing sex-slaves:

A Muslim state must [first] attack a Christian statesorry, I mean any non-Muslim stateand they [the women, the future sex-slaves] must be captives of the raid [i.e., jihad].  Is this forbidden? Not at all; according to Islam, sex slaves are not at all forbidden. Quite the contrary, the rules regulating sex-slaves differ from those for free women [i.e., Muslim women]: the latters body must be covered entirely, except for her face and hands, whereas the sex-slave is kept naked from the bellybutton on upshe is different from the free woman; the free woman has to be married properly to her husband, but the sex-slavehe just buys her and thats that.  So the sex-slave is different from the free woman.

read the rest here.

URL to article: Muslim Woman Seeks to Revitalize the Institution of Sex-Slavery | FrontPage Magazine


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## zeitgeist2012 (Jun 16, 2011)

Sick....

Economic & Multicultural Terrorism


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