# Can Palestinians Govern "Palestine?"



## SAYIT (Sep 20, 2016)

As has been the norm for a decade, the Oslo Accords-created Palestinian Authority has "postponed" the October elections. Unsure of the vote's outcome, Abbas's "Supreme Court" ordered the delay while they consider 2 election related issues.

While this is not an unusual move in places where the rule of law plays second fiddle to the ruling regime's whim, it illustrates the failure of Palestinians to establish an electoral democracy and a genuinely functional state.

The ascension of Hamas prompted the PA's Fatah ruling party to tighten their grip on their share of power which is most of the West Bank, creating 2 separate and competing national gov'ts. 

While Fatah's  intention - the exclusion of a known terrorist gang from governance - may have been pragmatic, the result has been to engender oppression. Fatah correctly sees cooperation with Israel and the international community as the path to an independent state. Hamas sees the destruction of Israel as the only solution.

As things now stand the PA must either to form a single gov't with the rule of law and peaceful coexistence as its goals or to continue with Gaza and the WB as separate entities and perhaps create a WB Palestinian State sans Gaza.

The choice is, as always, theirs.

Next month’s Palestinian local elections aren’t happening. Here’s why.  [excerpted]

...The Palestinian Authority is an electoral democracy in name, but the governments that rule in the West Bank and Gaza are effectively one-party regimes. Following Hamas’s victory in 2006, violent clashes resulted in the Islamist movement seizing control of the Gaza Strip and taking over PA institutions there, including the Interior Ministry, public police and security forces. Fatah, for its part, purged much of the central PA authority structures in the West Bank of Hamas supporters. Today, these two islands of Palestinian rule persist — each under the seemingly firm grip of a single party.

Yet beneath the surface of these coercive states, sporadic episodes of relative self-rule at the local level in the West Bank and Gaza have made local elections a historically important harbinger of political sentiment. In a setting where it is unclear how the population’s interests are being represented at the national level, subnational elections are a valuable mechanism for opposition movements to form popular bases and demonstrate competence in governance. Local elections, just as they did for a brief time when Israel directly ruled the territories, have served as an important, if not entirely even, counterweight to autocratic authority. Perhaps more important, they have often served as the bellwether of fundamental shifts in the Palestinian resistance movement.


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## MJB12741 (Sep 20, 2016)

The worst punishment Israel could inflict on the Palestinians would be self government,with self determination without having Israel to suck off of to support them any longer.


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## P F Tinmore (Sep 20, 2016)

Excellent question.

The last legally constituted government in Palestine was the unity government of March 2007.

What happened to that?


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## Penelope (Sep 20, 2016)

Well I think the writing is on the wall, they do not stand a chance with Israel, the moderate ones can become like the moderate traditional Israelites and the zealots ones can join in with the Hasidic community. As long as they do not get rid of the Mosque on the Temple mount, and also of course Israel has to recognize them as citizens with full equal rights.


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## Hollie (Sep 20, 2016)

I have no hesitation to say that there is no lack of credulous islamic apologists who are too eager to blame everyone but themselves for their self-inflicted disasters and pratfalls.

What we see with regularity in the islamist world is the propensity for Moslems to become their own worst enemies. Drop one person one vote into islamist fear societies - allow free access to the process for political parties, and we see with regularity that the pious Islamic terrorists sweep up the votes. Does Hamas in Gaza'istan ring any bells? How about Iran’s proxy army in Lebanon: Hezbollah? How about the muslim brotherhood in Egypt?

Why do moslems put in place these loathsome despots? Because for countless generations, with only brief periods of anything different, they've been ruled by despots, have no aversion to unconstitutional changes of government, and believe to the core of their being in their Islamist creed which means submission. Not only will they gladly submit to a theocratic/totalitarian state, but they'll positively rush out and make it happen. When pious Moslems are given the chance to run their own governments, the first thing they do is lock down the society, remove all human rights, and oppress everyone within their borders with intolerable religious laws and vicious enforcement of a 7th century theocratic code. It's no accident that these patterns are seen over and over across Islam'istan.

 insha'victimhood complex.


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## Hollie (Sep 20, 2016)

P F Tinmore said:


> Excellent question.
> 
> The last legally constituted government in Palestine was the unity government of March 2007.
> 
> What happened to that?


In a word: islamism.


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## Phoenall (Sep 20, 2016)

P F Tinmore said:


> Excellent question.
> 
> The last legally constituted government in Palestine was the unity government of March 2007.
> 
> What happened to that?







It self destructed because it gained too much power far too quickly. Then it was taken over by islamonazi terrorists that didn't know what they were doing and started to kill its own people in as many ways as it could devise. What government would mass murder children just to chase their fathers out of gaza, drag political opponents through the streets of gaza, gang rape brides on their wedding day after killing their husbands  and lastly throw children from the tops of high buildings because they were related to fatah members.


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## RoccoR (Sep 20, 2016)

SAYIT,  et al,

This is very applicable to the "Question of Palestine."  Certainly nothing about the range of possible answers is a given.



SAYIT said:


> Can Palestinians Govern "Palestine?"
> 
> •  it illustrates the failure of Palestinians to establish an electoral democracy and a genuinely functional state.
> •  Fatah correctly sees cooperation with Israel and the international community as the path to an independent state.
> •  Hamas sees the destruction of Israel as the only solution.​


*(COMMENT)*

There are some huge chunks of considerations that need to be addressed.  

•  The "knowledge, skills, and abilities," (KSAs) to actually form a collection of personnel that can handle the functions of government.

∆   The knowledge being the experience or education in practical understanding of a governance.
∆   The skills in the performance of specific tasks that render a desired results --- within a given amount of time, energy, and fiscal limitations.
∆   The abilities the varied physical capacities and the essential materials to necessary to assemble a functioning entity.​•  A citizenry that actually "wants" to exert the effort to assemble a self-governing, autonomous nation.  Or, one nation (Palestine) with two autonomous Provinces (The West Bank and Gaza Strip); the union these two entities as a single sovereign state.​If the Palestinians really "wanted" a measure of autonomy, surely they would have been able to demonstrate that sometime during the last 70 years.  The fact of the matter is that they have set the political and diplomatic conditions necessary to achieve that goal.  The fact that they have not means that either they:

•  Do not have the prerequisite KSAs to accomplish the establishment of government.
•  Do not have the motivation to establish the government.
•  Do not have either KSAs or the motivation to create a functional government.​The international community can build a KSA base from which the prerequisites could establish an autonomous government.  But it is impossible to inject motivation and leadership when the mindset of the Arab Palestinian is pointed in a hostile direction:

The High Commissioner wishing the Advisory Council to approximate as closely as possible to the abortive Legislative council, proposed to reconstitute it on the lines suggested for the latter body, that is to say with 10 officials and 8 Moslem, 2 Christians and 2 Jewish Palestinians. But of the 10 Arabs whom he nominated, *7 withdrew their acceptance under political pressure*.  The High Commissioner did not wish to replace them with men of less standing. It thus proved impossible to constitute a representative Advisory Council.

Later in 1923, *a third attempt* was made to establish an institution through which the Arab population of Palestine could be brought into cooperation with the government. The mandatory Power now proposed “the establishment of an Arab Agency in Palestine which will occupy a position exactly analogous to that accorded to the Jewish Agency”. The Arab Agency would have the right to be consulted on all matters relating to immigration, on which it was recognised that “the views of the Arab community were entitled to special consideration”. The Arab leaders declined that this offer on the ground that it would not satisfy the aspirations of the Arab people. They added that, never having recognised the status of the Jewish Agency, they had no desire for the establishment of an Arab Agency on the same basis.​ 
The UN Palestine Commission asked the Arab Delegation for representation in early 1948.  Of course the answer was "no."  

"_You can lead a horse to water --- but you can't make it drink, swim or snorkel._"​
Most Respectfully,
R


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## Phoenall (Sep 20, 2016)

Penelope said:


> Well I think the writing is on the wall, they do not stand a chance with Israel, the moderate ones can become like the moderate traditional Israelites and the zealots ones can join in with the Hasidic community. As long as they do not get rid of the Mosque on the Temple mount, and also of course Israel has to recognize them as citizens with full equal rights.







Why what law demands that, the actual law saws that they have the right to evict terrorists and enemies of the state from their nation. The mosque can be moved to an islamic holy site, if any can be found, and the Temple re built in its place. The temple mount was a Jewish holy place before islam was invented by the mentally deranged false prophet in 623 C.E.

AND WHAT ABOUT INTERNATIONAL LAW THAT GAVE THE LAND TO THE JEWS WHILE GIVING THE ARAB MUSLIMS THE FERTILE JORDAN VALLEY.


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## Penelope (Sep 20, 2016)

Hollie said:


> I have no hesitation to say that there is no lack of credulous islamic apologists who are too eager to blame everyone but themselves for their self-inflicted disasters and pratfalls.
> 
> What we see with regularity in the islamist world is the propensity for Moslems to become their own worst enemies. Drop one person one vote into islamist fear societies - allow free access to the process for political parties, and we see with regularity that the pious Islamic terrorists sweep up the votes. Does Hamas in Gaza'istan ring any bells? How about Iran’s proxy army in Lebanon: Hezbollah? How about the muslim brotherhood in Egypt?
> 
> ...



All you bring up is Hamas and Hezbollah , both of which have a right to defend themselves.  See I could give 10 you know what about Israel, except its time for peace, and frankly Hamas and Hezbollah have just as much right to exist as the IDF. Believe me if the Hasidic Jews had anything to say about anything Israel would be back in the 700's as well, which is why secular Jews wanted Israel to be a secular country, and now its a jewish one.


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## Penelope (Sep 20, 2016)

MJB12741 said:


> The worst punishment Israel could inflict on the Palestinians would be self government,with self determination without having Israel to suck off of to support them any longer.



Does that mean then the US would not have Israel sucking off of them anymore?


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## Hollie (Sep 20, 2016)

Penelope said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> > I have no hesitation to say that there is no lack of credulous islamic apologists who are too eager to blame everyone but themselves for their self-inflicted disasters and pratfalls.
> ...


Your comment is off topic. Hamas is not defending anything by committing acts of war aimed at Israel.

Ultimately, islamism will have to come to terms with it’s all-consuming, totalitarian ideology. I think the West is, generally, the antithesis of an all-consuming, totalitarian politico-religious construct that demands "submission" to an OCD-like collection of rituals, customs and traditions that control every minute detail of one's life.


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## RoccoR (Sep 20, 2016)

Penelope,  et al,

I don't think you understand the difference between the aid given to the Israelis, and the donor contributions and aid coerced from the international community for the Government of Palestine.



Penelope said:


> MJB12741 said:
> 
> 
> > The worst punishment Israel could inflict on the Palestinians would be self government,with self determination without having Israel to suck off of to support them any longer.
> ...


*(COMMENT)*

In fact, if the Government of Palestine _(one of the three most likely possibilities)_ where to achieve some sort of peaceful arrangement, the likelihood is that Military Assistance would increase if that arrangement included a weakening of Israeli Defense response times, or weaken the protection in depth that the current "Area C" settlements currently achieve.

Additionally, the US would probably make a significant contribution to Israel towards advance power generation facilities, desalinization plants, and land reclamation for relocation and habitation by former Area "C" residents.  There would probably be a big hike in the development of additional energy platforms in the Levant Basin  and  and standoff security out-platforms to protect the investment.

So, if you question pertains to the dollar incentive distribution towards Israel, the answer is no.  Where as, the US donor contribution to the Palestinians would probably go down; because they have virtually no expected return on any US investment. 

Most Respectfully,
R


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## Hossfly (Sep 20, 2016)

The Palestinians could govern themselves if they could be permitted to hold an election.


*Palestinians on both sides seethe over postponed elections*
GAZA CITY, Gaza Strip — Frustration and discontent prevailed among Palestinians on Sept. 8, after the High Court of Justice in Ramallah postponed the local elections indefinitely.

 Palestinians are disappointed by the postponement of the local elections, and with the political divide as deep as ever, the wide disillusionment and frustration plaguing both the West Bank and Gaza is giving way to apathy.

The court's decision followed a number of appeals presented by several lawyers, challenging the legitimacy of elections that would not include East Jerusalem and the lack of appropriate conditions for holding them. The appeals also challenged the legitimacy of the Gaza courts and judiciary tasked with evaluating them.

Mohammed al-Najjar, who sells vegetables in the popular Khan Yunis market west of Gaza City, told Al-Monitor he was angry at the postponement. “We were hoping the local elections would lead to legislative and presidential elections … that would improve our bad economic situation. My family and I registered to vote, but the elections were unfortunately postponed.”


Read more: Palestinians on both sides seethe over postponed elections
jt2


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## P F Tinmore (Sep 20, 2016)

RoccoR said:


> Penelope,  et al,
> 
> I don't think you understand the difference between the aid given to the Israelis, and the donor contributions and aid coerced from the international community for the Government of Palestine.
> 
> ...


Where as, the US donor contribution to the Palestinians would probably go down; because they have virtually no expected return on any US investment.​
Not true. The money the US gives to the "Palestinians" is to protect Israel.


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## P F Tinmore (Sep 20, 2016)

RoccoR said:


> SAYIT,  et al,
> 
> This is very applicable to the "Question of Palestine."  Certainly nothing about the range of possible answers is a given.
> 
> ...


Load of crap, Rocco. Your usual slime piece against the Palestinians.


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## Penelope (Sep 20, 2016)

Hollie said:


> Penelope said:
> 
> 
> > Hollie said:
> ...



From what I read there is no sharia law in Gaza or the West Bank.


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## Shusha (Sep 20, 2016)

Penelope said:


> All you bring up is Hamas and Hezbollah , both of which have a right to defend themselves.  See I could give 10 you know what about Israel, except its time for peace, and frankly Hamas and Hezbollah have just as much right to exist as the IDF.



Its not clear what you mean here.  Are you saying that terrorist organizations have a right to exist?  Are you saying that military branches of government have a right to exist?  Are you saying that governments have a right to exist?  

Of course, the people of Gaza and the West Bank and Lebanon have a right to self-government.  Of course, the people of Gaza and the West Bank and Lebanon have a right to defend themselves.

They do not have the right to form or permit or protect or incite terrorist organizations which attack neighboring sovereign nations.  

Here's the thing -- NO ONE is attacking Gaza or the West Bank.  There is nothing to defend themselves FROM.


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## Shusha (Sep 20, 2016)

Penelope said:


> From what I read there is no sharia law in Gaza or the West Bank.



Where did you read that?  

_ Gaza Strip The Egyptian personal status law of 1954 is applied. The personal status law is based on Islamic law and regulates matters related to inheritance, marriage, divorce and child custody. Shari’a courts hear cases related to personal status. The testimony of a woman is worth only half of that of a man in cases related to marriage, divorce and child custody.

Palestine The Jordanian personal status law of 1976 is applied. The personal status law is based on Islamic law and regulates matters related to inheritance, marriage, divorce and child custody. Sharia courts hear cases related to personal status. The testimony of a woman is worth only half of that of a man in cases related to marriage, divorce and child custody.

Source and source._


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## SAYIT (Sep 20, 2016)

P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > ...If the Palestinians really "wanted" a measure of autonomy, surely they would have been able to demonstrate that sometime during the last 70 years...
> ...



Wah ... Wah ...Waaaah. 

Considering the anti-Israel propaganda that regularly rolls off your keyboard you are hardly in a position to complain.

Ironically, just a couple of years ago Rocco was as tough on Israel as he is now on the Palestinians but his POV has, IMHO, slowly become increasingly rational and, as such, increasing pro-Israel.


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## RoccoR (Sep 20, 2016)

P F Tinmore,  et al,

I think you misread the tense.  This statement was made in connection with the post-Agreement phase.  Relative to the comment made by MJB12741:  "The worst punishment Israel could inflict on the Palestinians would be self government,with self determination without having Israel to suck off of to support them any longer."



			
				UNRWA said:
			
		

> The United States government has announced a new contribution of nearly US$ 68 million to the United Nations Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees in the Near East (UNRWA), including more than US$ 3.8 million for the construction of a multipurpose school building in Zohour to replace the current rented facilities and more than $1.3 million for the extension of Jordan Field operations support office (OSO). The majority of the nearly $68 million contribution will go to the Agency's Programme Budget to support more than 170 UNRWA schools in Jordan; as well as its health clinics and social services programmes, which help Palestine refugees’ efforts to stay healthy and secure.
> *SOURCE:* *UNRWA US Announces Additional $68M Contribution to Support Palestine Refugee*


This is all about what happens after (if ever) the Israelis and the Palestinians agree and begin a withdrawal from the West Bank.



P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > Where as, the US donor contribution to the Palestinians would probably go down; because they have virtually no expected return on any US investment.
> ...


*(COMMENT)*

First, the return on US Dollar Investment given to the Palestinians is not now, nor expected to be in the future, about the protection of Israel; not even the US Security Assistance funding for PA Security Forces.  It is about setting the conditions to meet Article 43 HR (law and order) prior to an agreed upon withdrawal from the West Bank.  



The effectiveness of U.S. assistance to the Palestinians in furthering U.S. policy objectives might be defined by answers to the following questions: ( Quote From U.S. Foreign Aid to the Palestinians CRS RS22967 18 MAR 16)
 How does it affect U.S. influence with Palestinians in working toward regional policy objectives? 
 How does it address short-term (i.e., humanitarian) needs? 
 How does it address longer-term development, governance, and reform efforts?​
Again, you misunderstand the various purposes for the various kinds of funding, and how the change in conditions changes the direction and focus of funding.

If the Palestinians were to come forth with acceptable conditions that actually (not theoretically) lead to a withdrawal, the US will in all probability, cut a substantial portion of funding to the PA (or successor government); simply because the US would not want that funding to be used in hostile activities against Israel.  Likewise, the US would increase funding to Israel's defensive capabilities to offset the potential for staging Arab Forces _(Hostile Arab Palestinians)_ within 9 miles of Netanya, 10 miles from Beersheba, and 11 miles from Tel Aviv.   

Currently, the US is getting virtually no return on its investment from the US Dollars and equipment provided to the PA, relative to Israeli Security.  In fact, one only needs to read this Discussion Group and watch as violent events occur and the low and order declines relative to the safety and security of Israeli Citizens.  Incident levels are increasing --- not decreasing.  

Most Respectfully,
R


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## SAYIT (Sep 20, 2016)

Shusha said:


> Penelope said:
> 
> 
> > All you bring up is Hamas and Hezbollah , both of which have a right to defend themselves.  See I could give 10 you know what about Israel, except its time for peace, and frankly Hamas and Hezbollah have just as much right to exist as the IDF.
> ...




Correct but what Pene means is that she hates Israel because she hates Jooos and there's nothing that she nor anyone else can do to change that. It's just who and what she chooses to be:


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## Penelope (Sep 20, 2016)

SAYIT said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > Penelope said:
> ...





Shusha said:


> Penelope said:
> 
> 
> > All you bring up is Hamas and Hezbollah , both of which have a right to defend themselves.  See I could give 10 you know what about Israel, except its time for peace, and frankly Hamas and Hezbollah have just as much right to exist as the IDF.
> ...



Oh my are you kidding. Israel is always stirring stuff up with Lebanon and Gaza, and nightly bulldozing houses in the west bank.  Endless shooting at fishermen, up rooting olive trees before harvest, continual harassment.


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## MJB12741 (Sep 20, 2016)

Penelope said:


> SAYIT said:
> 
> 
> > Shusha said:
> ...



It warms my heart to see how Penelope & her ilk so suffer 24/7 living here in the USA who supports Israel. Thank you Lord.


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## P F Tinmore (Sep 20, 2016)

RoccoR said:


> P F Tinmore,  et al,
> 
> I think you misread the tense.  This statement was made in connection with the post-Agreement phase.  Relative to the comment made by MJB12741:  "The worst punishment Israel could inflict on the Palestinians would be self government,with self determination without having Israel to suck off of to support them any longer."
> 
> ...


Currently, the US is getting virtually no return on its investment from the US Dollars and equipment provided to the PA, relative to Israeli Security.​


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## Indeependent (Sep 20, 2016)

P F Tinmore said:


> Excellent question.
> 
> The last legally constituted government in Palestine was the unity government of March 2007.
> 
> What happened to that?


Arabs.


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## Indeependent (Sep 20, 2016)

Penelope said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> > I have no hesitation to say that there is no lack of credulous islamic apologists who are too eager to blame everyone but themselves for their self-inflicted disasters and pratfalls.
> ...



Hassdism STARTED in the 18th century, retard.
Or is that...
Retard...Hassdism STARTED in the 18th century.


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## Phoenall (Sep 21, 2016)

Penelope said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> > I have no hesitation to say that there is no lack of credulous islamic apologists who are too eager to blame everyone but themselves for their self-inflicted disasters and pratfalls.
> ...







They have no right to exist as they are terrorists, and hezbollocks have invaded Lebanon with the intention of taking over and driving out the Christian rulers/owners. If the hasidic Jews had their way you would be destitute and impoverished due to them refusing to help you keep your home and Job


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## Phoenall (Sep 21, 2016)

Penelope said:


> MJB12741 said:
> 
> 
> > The worst punishment Israel could inflict on the Palestinians would be self government,with self determination without having Israel to suck off of to support them any longer.
> ...







 Not as much as the muslims do, it stands at over 10 times the amount given to the Jews is squandered on arab muslim terrorists so start there first. Watch the threats come flying your way when you stop the blood money


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## Phoenall (Sep 21, 2016)

P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > Penelope,  et al,
> ...









 WRONG it is to line the Swiss bank accounts of the hamas and fatah leaders.


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## Phoenall (Sep 21, 2016)

P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > SAYIT,  et al,
> ...








No it is fact backed up by recent history. Why have the P.A. refused to take the last steps towards statehood ?


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## Phoenall (Sep 21, 2016)

Penelope said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> > Penelope said:
> ...








 Then you are reading the wrong article as hamas and fatah are based on sharia laws


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## RoccoR (Sep 21, 2016)

P F Tinmore,  et al,

Yes, this video, although a bit dated (2012 talking about the FY2013 Budget) is fairly clean.



P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > Currently, the US is getting virtually no return on its investment from the US Dollars and equipment provided to the PA, relative to Israeli Security.  In fact, one only needs to read this Discussion Group and watch as violent events occur and the low and order declines relative to the safety and security of Israeli Citizens.  Incident levels are increasing --- not decreasing.


*(COMMENT)*

Although the speakers says it several times in several different ways, if you scan forward to about the 4:00 mark, he talks about 28%-32% --- Security Assistance.  It is not defending either Israel or Palestinian, it is an internal security force _(Palestinian Police over the Palestinian People)_ operating largely in Area "A".

If you go to the 10:00 mark, you will here them mention that the Palestinian Security Forces also attempt to mitigate the growth of independent armed Palestinians that attempt to establish their control local villages.

Again, this does not represent any return on the American Investment.  This is strictly America attempting to help the Palestinians establish law and order within 22% of the West Bank (Area "A") which they don't seem able to do.  And if the Ramallah Government cannot govern Area "A" _(maintaining peace, security, law and order within their own population)_ --- what makes them think they could handle the entire West Bank?

I think this video supports me, more than it supports your position.

*(SIDEBAR)*

There is very little question that we could pick-a-part and reveal all sorts of short comings in the Administration and Operation of the Israelis within the West Bank.   Yes, we could -- give a scathing rebuke.  But THEN, in comparison to the demonstrated abilities of the Palestinians to rule (self-govern) Area "A" ---  the Israelis are making a stellar performance.

Most Respectfully,
R


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## Phoenall (Sep 21, 2016)

Penelope said:


> SAYIT said:
> 
> 
> > Shusha said:
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 Nothing to do with the terrorist attacks that take place every day from hamas and hezbollocks then is it.

Nothing to do with Israel's strict adherence to international laws and the Geneva conventions

Nothing to do with illegal gun running and smuggling

Nothing to do with illegal planting by invading arab muslims.


It is all  the fault of the Jews according to you nazi scum and it is time the world brought you to heel


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## Phoenall (Sep 21, 2016)

P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore,  et al,
> ...









 And that is to control their own extremists and terrorist groups nothing else. It is not to protect the Israeli's from attack


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## Penelope (Sep 21, 2016)

Indeependent said:


> Penelope said:
> 
> 
> > Hollie said:
> ...



Since Moritz Friedländer's investigations (especially in _The Antichrist (book),_ Göttingen, 1901) have shown the great extent to which the Jews in Palestine and in the countries of the Diaspora fell away from Judaism, even in the 3rd century B.C., the Hasidæans appear simply to have been those "pious" ones who remained true to the customs of their fathers. They lost ground, however, from day to day, as their prayer shows: "Help, Lord; for the Ḥasid ceaseth" (כי גמר חסיד: Ps. xii. 2 [A. V. 1]). They were animated by a profound hatred for the foreign, Hellenic spirit, and for those of their Jewish brethren who were filled with it. In the Maccabean wars they came to an accounting with both. They seem by no means to have been peace-loving hermits or ascetics. Their sentiments and attitude are probably to be seen in Ps. cxlix.:

Sing unto the Lord a new song, and his praise in the assembly of Ḥasidim... The Ḥasidim exult in glory: they sing for joy upon their beds. They have the high praises of God in their mouth, and a two-edged sword in their hand; to execute vengeance upon the nations, and punishments upon the peoples; to bind their kings with chains, and their nobles with fetters of iron: to execute upon them the promised judgment.

This agrees with II Maccabees, according to which the Hasidæans under Judas Maccabeus "continually stirred up war and rebellion, and would not let the country be at peace."

Hasideans - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

They just got new attire, Russian and all in black, to say "look at me".


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## Phoenall (Sep 21, 2016)

Penelope said:


> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> > Penelope said:
> ...









Did you read the first entry of the article


 This article includes a list of references, related reading or external links, *but its sources remain unclear because it lacks inline citations*. Please help to improve this article by introducing more precise citations. _(February 2008)_ _(Learn how and when to remove this template message)_


Showing that it is not to be trusted and used as evidence.


 And as the author says   My long term goals are to have a job.   making one of those you despise so much


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## SAYIT (Sep 21, 2016)

Phoenall said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Currently, the US is getting virtually no return on its investment from the US Dollars and equipment provided to the PA, relative to Israeli Security...
> ...



I beg to differ.

Certainly Fatah's security efforts - as a matter of self-preservation - are intended to suppress the growth of Islamic extremism and violent gangs in the WB but Abbas understands that the Palestinians must demonstrate a capacity to both govern themselves and to interact peacefully with their established neighbors if they are ever to achieve functioning statehood.



RoccoR said:


> P F Tinmore,  et al,
> There is very little question that we could pick-a-part and reveal all sorts of short comings in the Administration and Operation of the Israelis within the West Bank.   Yes, we could -- give a scathing rebuke.  But THEN, in comparison to the demonstrated abilities of the Palestinians to rule (self-govern) Area "A" ---  the Israelis are making a stellar performance.



The security agenda of Israel in the WB was, understandably, primarily intended to protect Israelis and yes, their methods may be deemed to have been oppressive.

Fatah's agenda, pragmatically, is primarily to protect Palestinians and demonstrate their capacity to function as a peaceful and productive society and their methods may also be judged oppressive.

Both Fatah and Israel found the suppression of Islamists and others to be a necessary evil when weighed against other options.


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## Hollie (Sep 21, 2016)

Phoenall said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > RoccoR said:
> ...



One word: The UNRWA welfare fraud.

All seriousness aside, the cash cow that maintains entire infrastructures of Arab-Moslem welfare cheats, various islamic terrorist franchises and their enablers along with the fabulous wealth of those who control the money spigot is endangered by formal statehood for 'Pal'istanians. As Rocco noted earlier, the US (and other nations contributing to UNRWA) would likely reduce their contributions with Pal'istanian statehood.

The UNRWA welfare fraud has morphed into a generational endowment that perpetuates the invention of Pal'istanian refugees and destroys any incentive for Arabs-Moslems to make an attempt to build a functioning society. I think that in a very real sense, the west needs to accept responsibility for continuing to fund the UNRWA fraud while demanding no accountability on the part of Arabs-Moslems.

Anyone can do a search for themselves and find the documented abuses of UNRWA fraud money, so much of it not subject to any standards of audit and accountability and managed by thieves who maintain a payroll that includes Arab-Moslem terrorists.


----------



## SAYIT (Sep 21, 2016)

Hollie said:


> Phoenall said:
> 
> 
> > ...Why have the P.A. refused to take the last steps towards statehood ?
> ...



Interesting take but IMHO not entirely accurate.

UNRWA is a cash cow (in the form of jobs) for Palestinians, foreign nationals and UN big-wigs. As such it would not disappear overnight but rather would remain the UN nanny agency on the ground. Bureaucracies rarely go away quietly (if they go at all) and international bleeding hearts will fight to maintain UNRWA for years if not decades.

Additionally, many countries (US, Euro, Gulf States) will be so energized by a peace deal and Pal statehood they will invest time and cash to get it off the ground. They could not afford to let it fail. Neither could Israel.


----------



## Hollie (Sep 21, 2016)

SAYIT said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> > Phoenall said:
> ...


Sayit - I'd offer _yes and no_ to your assessment. I agree with your UNRWA cash cow observation and your note of the various entities exploiting the money spigot. It is that very observation that makes me suspicious of any true effort on the part of the Pal'istanians and other entities to upset the status quo. 

I'm pessimistic about international investment in Pal'istanian enterprises. Any incentive for investment in Pal'istanian industry would need to be preceded by a clear path toward a stable government both willing and able to manage civil and business affairs. I don't see any of those attributes displayed by the current, competing governments in Fatah and Hamas. Secondly, international investment will require a workforce capable of commerce and industry. Currently, and due to decades of careless disregard for developing industry, the Pal'istanians innovate, manufacture, develop and produce virtually nothing. International investment would require international investors with a reasonable expectation of a positive risk/reward analysis. That might eventually develop but as we see across the islamic Middle East, there are not a lot of bright spots that attract Western investment. Maybe if the Pal'istanians built some pyramids?


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## P F Tinmore (Sep 21, 2016)

Hollie said:


> SAYIT said:
> 
> 
> > Hollie said:
> ...


Palestine needed no aid and had a positive balance of international trade.

Then Israel came along. Now we have two countries on welfare.

Good plan.


----------



## Phoenall (Sep 22, 2016)

P F Tinmore said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> > SAYIT said:
> ...










 No we have an islamonazi terrorist camp called gaza, an islamonazi breeding ground called the west bank that are dependant on welfare fraud. Then we have Israel that is paid to protect the free world and carry on its role as the nation with a positive balance of international trade. No nation of palestine has ever existed, and never will while the world pays them to attack Jewish children.


 The best plan was the one instigated by the arab muslims in 1925 that called for the removal of all muslims from the Jewish part of palestine


----------



## Coyote (Sep 23, 2016)

*Let's get back on topic please - which is governing Palestine.*


----------



## Hollie (Sep 23, 2016)

P F Tinmore said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> > SAYIT said:
> ...


The above tends to complicate the notion of Pal'istanians governing a place called Pal'istan. The countries called Gaza and the West Bank (remarkable what one can learn reading these forums), suffer the same problems with islamic terrorists attempting to manage the affairs of government that we see all across islamist Middle East. How would a government run by these folks you call Pal'istanians be any different from the governments in the "countries" of Gaza and the West Bank?


----------



## P F Tinmore (Sep 26, 2016)




----------



## Weatherman2020 (Sep 26, 2016)

Pol Pot, Kim Jung Il, Mao, Stalin, Hitler all governed their nations, so yes.


----------



## Hollie (Sep 26, 2016)

P F Tinmore said:


>



Repeat after me:

_I blame the Great Satan ™_


----------



## P F Tinmore (Sep 26, 2016)

US coup begins @ 6:40


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## Hollie (Sep 26, 2016)

P F Tinmore said:


> US coup begins @ 6:40



Repeat after me:

_I saw it on YouTube so it must be true ™_


----------



## P F Tinmore (Sep 26, 2016)




----------



## Hollie (Sep 26, 2016)

P F Tinmore said:


>



A YouTube video is always an accurate and literal rendering of islamo-claims to:

_I blame the Great Satan_ ™, or alternately,

_I blame The Zionist Entity_™

or sometimes, both pleas as a way to excuse Arab-Moslem terrorism.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Sep 26, 2016)

Hollie said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> >
> ...


Three different reports from three different countries that all match the facts on the ground.

Do you have anything different?


----------



## Hollie (Sep 26, 2016)

P F Tinmore said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



You suffer from the _I saw it on YouTube so it must be true ™, _syndrome.

By the way, did you notice your cut and paste YouTube videos bear the "Democracy Now", logo?

Mindless cutting and pasting from far left / conspiracy theory promoting YouTube channels suggests promotion of propaganda is your primary goal.

What is your proposed conspiracy theory for the refusal of new elections by either of the current Islamic terrorist franchises in Gaza and the West Bank?


----------



## P F Tinmore (Sep 26, 2016)

Hollie said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Hollie said:
> ...


Clearly you are just shoveling shit because you don't know jack.

The liars say that Hamas had a coup in Gaza. This lie is so obvious yet there are many dupes who believe it.

Hamas was the elected government in office. They were the majority party in the Palestinian Authority, not just in Gaza but in the West Bank too.

So, what would be the point of having a coup?
-----------------------
The "PA" in the West Bank is an illegal government. Can anyone trust an illegal government to hold fair elections?


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## Hollie (Sep 26, 2016)

P F Tinmore said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



I'm somehow not impressed with your determination regarding which of the competing islamist terrorist franchises is illegal vs. legal. 

More importantly, both of the welfare fraud "governments" occupying the disputed territories have a peculiar similarity to so many other corrupt islamic terrorist groups masquerading as "governments" all across the islamist Middle East.

It's an odd thing, don't you think? So many other societies/cultures have managed to overcome adversity of many kinds and managed to rise above that adversity, manage their affairs and chart their own destiny without the endless decades of incompetence and ineptitude that defines so much of the islamist world.

There seems to be a common theme that connects retrogression, self-destruction and failure that defines theocratic totalitarian islamo-societies. 

Any guesses on what that common theme might be?


----------



## P F Tinmore (Sep 26, 2016)

Hollie said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Hollie said:
> ...


You are just babbling because you have nothing to refute my post.


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## Hollie (Sep 26, 2016)

P F Tinmore said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...


I have a YouTube video that authoritatively refutes your YouTube video. 

There. The matter is settled.


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## RoccoR (Sep 26, 2016)

P F Tinmore,  et al,

Yes, well you have your opinion.



P F Tinmore said:


> The "PA" in the West Bank is an illegal government. Can anyone trust an illegal government to hold fair elections?


*(COMMENT)*

There is nothing "illegal" about the Ramallah Government, the Government of Palestine, or what ever you want to call it. 

The International Criminal Court (ICC) cannot admit a non-state entity which does not  possesses capacity to conclude treaties.

1. A person is considered as representing a State for the purpose of adopting or authenticating the text of a treaty or for the purpose of expressing the consent of the State to be bound by a treaty if:

(a) he produces appropriate full powers; or 

(b) it appears from the practice of the States concerned or from other circumstances that their intention was to consider that person as representing the State for such purposes and to dispense with full powers.​2. In virtue of their functions and without having to produce full powers, the following are considered as representing their State:

(a) Heads of State, Heads of Government and Ministers for Foreign Affairs, for the purpose of performing all acts relating to the conclusion of a treaty; 

(b) heads of diplomatic missions, for the purpose of adopting the text of a treaty between the accrediting State and the State to which they are accredited; 

(c) representatives accredited by States to an international conference or to an international organization or one of its organs, for the purpose of adopting the text of a treaty in that conference, organization or organ.​
The ICC recognized that the "State of Palestine" acceded to the Rome Statute and the Agreement on Privileges and Immunities of the Court ("APIC") on 2 January 2015. 

Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## P F Tinmore (Sep 29, 2016)

RoccoR said:


> P F Tinmore,  et al,
> 
> Yes, well you have your opinion.
> 
> ...


Political opinions do not change the law.

Abbas left the government in June of 2007. With the help of US supplied guns, money, and political cover, i.e. lies, he set up an illegal government in the West Bank after his resignation. Neither the Prime Minister nor any of his Cabinet Ministers have been approved by parliament as required by their constitution.

We have an unelected president and an unapproved PM and cabinet.

I don't see anything legal there.


----------



## RoccoR (Sep 29, 2016)

P F Tinmore,  et al,

I vaguely remember you just tearing me up during those 2006 elections for criticizing them.



P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore,  et al,
> ...


*(COMMENT)*

If the Arab Palestinians cannot follow their own Basic Law, then that is their problem.  It is not at all uncommon for Arab League countries to have a violent change in the government.  Just look at the impact of the Arab Spring.

Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## P F Tinmore (Sep 29, 2016)

RoccoR said:


> P F Tinmore,  et al,
> 
> I vaguely remember you just tearing me up during those 2006 elections for criticizing them.
> 
> ...


It is not at all uncommon for Arab League countries to have a violent change in the government.​
At the point of US guns.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Sep 29, 2016)

RoccoR said:


> P F Tinmore,  et al,
> 
> I vaguely remember you just tearing me up during those 2006 elections for criticizing them.
> 
> ...


The US administration continued to treat Fatah as if it had won the election rather than lost it - funding, arming, and directly encouraging agents within it to reverse the outcome of that democratic election by force. The Palestinian president brought pressure to bear on Hamas to change its position on recognition of Israel. Palestinians refused to participate in this externally driven coup - indeed, the vast majority of Fatah cadres rejected outright an enterprise so clearly directed at destroying the Palestinian body politic. Both the prisoners' document and the Mecca agreement signed in Saudi Arabia creating a national unity government took place because Palestinian society insisted on a national framework. Yet a small group has brought us to this point. The outcome is what we have before us today, similar to what the Americans were seeking to create in Iraq: the total exclusion of democratic practices and principles, the attempt to impose an oligarchy on a fragmented political society, a weakened and terrorised people, a foreign rule through warlords and strongmen.

Karma Nabulsi: The people of Palestine must finally be allowed to determine their own fate​


----------



## Hollie (Sep 29, 2016)

P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore,  et al,
> ...



While you're busy scouring for excuses to avoid assigning responsibility for the reluctance of Islamic terrorists to hold elections and form a workable society.....


*Will the West Bank hold elections without Gaza?*

As Palestinians were preparing for the local elections slated for Oct. 8, the High Court of Justice in Ramallah announced Sept. 8 a surprising decision to hold the elections on Sept. 21 instead. However, when Sept. 21 came, the court decided to postpone the elections until Oct. 3. In light of these repeated delays, the Central Elections Committee (CEC) announced Sept. 21 that holding the planned elections on Oct. 8 was unfeasible, as the delays have disrupted the electoral process’ timetables.

Many scenarios emerged when the Palestinian local elections were delayed, with some saying elections may be held in the West Bank, and not in the Gaza Strip, where Hamas may appoint its candidates in the local bodies. 
This decision sparked mutual accusations between Hamas and Fatah over the postponement of the elections. While Hamas viewed the postponement as a cancellation of the elections, Fatah accused Hamas of sabotaging the elections. Meanwhile, dozens of leftists rallied before the High Court of Justice on Sept. 21 to express opposition and demand the court to reconsider its decision.


Read more: Will the West Bank hold elections without Gaza?



Just more of what one would expect from competing Islamic terrorist franchises.


----------



## RoccoR (Sep 30, 2016)

P F Tinmore,  et al,

HAMAS, a Hostile Arab Palestinian (HoAP) militant and jihadist group, serves as one of two major political parties, is an acronym for Harakat al-Muqawama al-Islamiya ("Islamic Resistance Movement").  It is a prominent rival party by the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO) Fatah organization.  The PLO-Fatah _(as the "sole legitimate representative of the Palestinian people")_ has has not yet actually renounced violence; but has, instead --- incited, encouraged, and political honored the martyrs of the Islamic jihadist, insurgents, guerrilla's, rebels, resistance and other asymmetric activities and individual initiative to strike-out and inflict harms on the Israelis.

Both HAMAS and the PLO-Fatah, incite, support, finance and encourage various other elements and splinter organizations of the HoAP (as the protected persons), who commit offenses or conduct activities which is solely intended to harm the Israel _(as the Occupying Power)_, are subject to prosecution.  Just as HoAP actions which represent a collective danger, nor seriously damage the property of the Israeli police and security forces --- administrations, --- or the installations used by them, shall be liable to prosecution and serious fines and sentencing.




P F Tinmore said:


> The US administration continued to treat Fatah as if it had won the election rather than lost it - funding, arming, and directly encouraging agents within it to reverse the outcome of that democratic election by force. The Palestinian president brought pressure to bear on Hamas to change its position on recognition of Israel. Palestinians refused to participate in this externally driven coup - indeed, the vast majority of Fatah cadres rejected outright an enterprise so clearly directed at destroying the Palestinian body politic. Both the prisoners' document and the Mecca agreement signed in Saudi Arabia creating a national unity government took place because Palestinian society insisted on a national framework. Yet a small group has brought us to this point. The outcome is what we have before us today, similar to what the Americans were seeking to create in Iraq: the total exclusion of democratic practices and principles, the attempt to impose an oligarchy on a fragmented political society, a weakened and terrorised people, a foreign rule through warlords and strongmen.
> 
> Karma Nabulsi: The people of Palestine must finally be allowed to determine their own fate​



*(COMMENT)*

The "People of Palestine" have, since the (1920) termination of the Occupied Enemy Territory Administration (OETA) and transition to the Civil Administration the Arab Palestinians have been encouraged to participate directly in the Civil Administration under the Mandate for Palestine.  The HoAP had unilaterally decided their own fate.  Even if a choice is given to them --- and the HoAP consider the options unacceptable and declined to participate, ---  that is still exercising self-determination and the future consequences of their choice.  And that policy existed in the beginning when "in 1923, a third attempt was made by the Mandatory, to establish an institution through which the Arab population of Palestine could be brought into cooperation with the government. The Mandatory Power had proposed “the establishment of an Arab Agency in Palestine" which will occupy a position exactly analogous to that accorded to the Jewish Agency”.  The Arab Agency would have the right to be consulted on all matters relating to immigration, on which it was recognized that “the views of the Arab community were entitled to special consideration.”   But each time the HoAP were offered participation and integration into the administration of Palestine, no matter what it was, including the recommendation put forth by the UN Special Committee on Palestine (UNSCOP) and the recommendations adopted by the General Assembly [A/RES/181(II)] (1947).  In early 1948, the UN Palestine Commission (UNPC) noted that:

"Powerful Arab interests, both inside and outside Palestine, are defying the resolution of the General Assembly and are engaged in a deliberate effort to alter by force the settlement envisaged therein."​The HoAP are always complaining about their "Right of Self-Determination" --- yet when the HoAP exercised their "right" they invariably were unsatisfied with the outcomes and consequences.

Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## Phoenall (Sep 30, 2016)

P F Tinmore said:


> US coup begins @ 6:40









 Still no actual evidence to support your claim, just personal opinions and possibles based on no facts on the ground


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## Phoenall (Sep 30, 2016)

P F Tinmore said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...








 Do you have anything to support your islamonazi propaganda, as this is all you seem to post


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## Phoenall (Sep 30, 2016)

P F Tinmore said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...








 It wasnt a coup it was the elimination of their opponents who also won seats in gaza and the west bank. Or if you prefer a massacre of children to remind fatah that hamas is now in charge and they had better believe it


----------



## Phoenall (Sep 30, 2016)

P F Tinmore said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...








 Everything written on this board refutes your every word and you are left with nothing but the same old lies


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## Mindful (Sep 30, 2016)

Phoenall said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Hollie said:
> ...



Did you see Abbas at Shimon Peres's funeral?


----------



## Phoenall (Sep 30, 2016)

P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore,  et al,
> ...









 Since when have kalishnivovs been made in the USA ?


----------



## P F Tinmore (Sep 30, 2016)

RoccoR said:


> P F Tinmore,  et al,
> 
> HAMAS, a Hostile Arab Palestinian (HoAP) militant and jihadist group, serves as one of two major political parties, is an acronym for Harakat al-Muqawama al-Islamiya ("Islamic Resistance Movement").  It is a prominent rival party by the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO) Fatah organization.  The PLO-Fatah _(as the "sole legitimate representative of the Palestinian people")_ has has not yet actually renounced violence; but has, instead --- incited, encouraged, and political honored the martyrs of the Islamic jihadist, insurgents, guerrilla's, rebels, resistance and other asymmetric activities and individual initiative to strike-out and inflict harms on the Israelis.
> 
> ...


Pfffft, your usual slime the Palestinians piece.


----------



## Hollie (Sep 30, 2016)

P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore,  et al,
> ...



_Slime the Pal'istanians_™

What I found pretty typical is that as a reaction to your hurt feelings, you stomp your feet and seethe as opposed to making any effort to address the salient points.

It's just remarkable that you and others will excuse 68 years of Arab-Moslem intransigence, decades of islamic terrorist attacks and a welfare scam that continues the fraud of an invented Pal'istanian people as a means to placate your insensate Jooo hatreds.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Sep 30, 2016)

Phoenall said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Hollie said:
> ...


Load of Israeli crap. Fatah was not kicked out of Gaza. Only the members of the coup were kicked out. Hamas gave amnesty to all Fatah members who were not part of the coup. The members of parliament retained their seats.

Gaza starts @ 13:15


----------



## Hollie (Sep 30, 2016)

P F Tinmore said:


> Phoenall said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...


----------



## P F Tinmore (Sep 30, 2016)

Hollie said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Phoenall said:
> ...


Hamas coup? 

What a load of Israeli crap.


----------



## Hollie (Sep 30, 2016)

P F Tinmore said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...


You poor, dear. I suppose your islamo-history comes only from selected YouTube videos approved by the prayer leader at your madrassah.


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## P F Tinmore (Sep 30, 2016)

Hollie said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Hollie said:
> ...


Deep thinking is not the Zionist's long suit.

The universally agreed upon purpose of a coup is to remove the present government and replace it with your own. Little or nothing remains of the previous government.

Now let's look at the results of Israel's bullshit coup.

The president was still the president.
The Prime Minister was still the Prime Minister.
None of the Cabinet Ministers were changed.
Nobody in the Parliament were changed.
No laws were changed.
The constitution remained in force.
Where do you see a coup?


----------



## Hollie (Sep 30, 2016)

P F Tinmore said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...


_The Zionists™ coup_?

Previously you claimed _The Coup_™ was an undertaking of 
_The Great Satan_™


----------



## P F Tinmore (Sep 30, 2016)

Hollie said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Hollie said:
> ...


So you post more meaningless clutter.


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## Hollie (Sep 30, 2016)

P F Tinmore said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...


Now, dear. I'm just pointing out your befuddlement over the various conspirators you have variously implicated in your grand (and conflicting), conspiracy theories. You're having some difficulty with alternately naming_ The Zionists_™ vs. _The Great Satan_™ as the entities involved in the coup that was...or wasn't.


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## Phoenall (Oct 1, 2016)

P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore,  et al,
> ...







 How is telling the truth slimeing the arab muslim terrorist scum


----------



## Phoenall (Oct 1, 2016)

P F Tinmore said:


> Phoenall said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...








So how many are still living in gaza then, and are still members of the P.A.

 You must think we cant read or see video's the way you go on. The reports stated that ALL fatah members were either massacred or chased out of gaza. One report was of an increase in one night of children being injured in beatings that rose by 250, and hamas blamed the IDF for the injuries. How did the IDF  get the children to the tops of buildings and throw them off ?


----------



## Phoenall (Oct 1, 2016)

P F Tinmore said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...








 Is that like your constant islamonazi crap ?


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## Phoenall (Oct 1, 2016)

P F Tinmore said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...







 In gaza where hamas are the dictators and rule completely. So much so they rape brides at their own weddings and murder the grooms. Where islamonazi version of sharia law is imposed on the citizens who are forced to act as human shields to protect the hamas terrorists. 


 Are yiu that blinded by your brainwashing that you have not seen any of this reported direct from gaza ?


----------



## Phoenall (Oct 1, 2016)

P F Tinmore said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...









 No you made a massive mistake and forgot your previous LIE that the coup was by the USA, then by the Jews when in fact it was by the arab muslims in Iran and Saudi for control of gaza and Jerusalem


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## racialreality9 (Oct 1, 2016)

Of course the Palestinians can govern Palestine, it belongs to them.  Not to the Jewish occupiers.


----------



## Phoenall (Oct 1, 2016)

racialreality9 said:


> Of course the Palestinians can govern Palestine, it belongs to them.  Not to the Jewish occupiers.






Lets see if you can produce the evidence of this, as to date not one person has proved this to be true. No treaty granted them the lands, and not even the ottomans would accept them as owners of palestine. The LoN being the legal owners from 1917 gave the Jews 22% of palestine, they did not give it to the islamonazi's


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## P F Tinmore (Oct 1, 2016)

Pages of blabber and nothing to refute my posts.


----------



## Phoenall (Oct 1, 2016)

P F Tinmore said:


> Pages of blabber and nothing to refute my posts.









 What is there to refute when it has no supporting evidence, all you do is post the same LIES and LIBELS that have been refuted in the past. When you have proven evidence then we might listen, but to post the same lies time after time shows that you live in La La land


----------



## P F Tinmore (Oct 1, 2016)

Phoenall said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Pages of blabber and nothing to refute my posts.
> ...


Yeah, yeah, same old duck.


----------



## RoccoR (Oct 1, 2016)

racialreality9, et al,

This says nothing.



racialreality9 said:


> Of course the Palestinians can govern Palestine, it belongs to them.  Not to the Jewish occupiers.


*(COMMENT)*

Governance and ownership --- have no relationship.   I own my property, but it is sovereignty territory to the US; which does not own my property.  This is not a real estate deal.

*(QUESTION)*

When did "ANY" territory under the sovereignty of the Arab Palestinian come under occupation by the Israelis?

Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## P F Tinmore (Oct 1, 2016)

RoccoR said:


> racialreality9, et al,
> 
> This says nothing.
> 
> ...


But true sovereignty belongs to the people, who in turn delegate it to their governments.

The People’s Sovereignty


----------



## Hollie (Oct 1, 2016)

P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > racialreality9, et al,
> ...


You mean "peoples".

Why not review the many earlier threads where your confusion regarding sovereignty and peoples has been addressed repeatedly, as in over and over again,


----------



## P F Tinmore (Oct 1, 2016)

Hollie said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > RoccoR said:
> ...


The people is accurate when addressing a single entity.


----------



## Hollie (Oct 1, 2016)

P F Tinmore said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



Perhaps it's a medical condition that causes you to forget what you write?

"It is not all people. It is all peoples. Why are you changing who has rights?"

http://www.usmessageboard.com/posts/15221877/


----------



## P F Tinmore (Oct 1, 2016)

Hollie said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Hollie said:
> ...


You are confused. There is no contradiction in what I have posted.


----------



## Hollie (Oct 1, 2016)

P F Tinmore said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



I guess you're just befuddled about what you wrote earlier.



"It is not all people. It is all peoples. Why are you changing who has rights?"


----------



## P F Tinmore (Oct 1, 2016)

Hollie said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Hollie said:
> ...


You are still having problems comprehending this concept, I see.


----------



## Hollie (Oct 1, 2016)

P F Tinmore said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



The concept was yours. You were reminded of it and now you're upset and befuddled as to why the concept applies to others but not you.


----------



## Phoenall (Oct 2, 2016)

P F Tinmore said:


> Phoenall said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...








 And it is the truth that you cant hack, so you ignore the facts and carry on blindly. Every one of your posts has been taken apart and destroyed over the years and still you peddle them as if they were the only true account. Like your islamonazi scholar that you have 4 links to who has been found guilty of altering words in legal documents, re-arranging treaties and openly lying about the LoN treaties and laws. Or your use of proven lies by palestinian activists that have been shown to be propaganda and in many cases are not even anything to do with Isreal.


 We will have to call you Daffy as you duck everything that shows you to be a complete idiot


----------



## RoccoR (Oct 2, 2016)

P F Tinmore,  et al,

Did this answer my question?  (No!)

Well, we would  come to hope for that to happen.  But sovereignty has very little to do with the Kind of Government; and more to do with the entity that exercises authority over a group of people that are collectively united.  



P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > racialreality9, et al,
> ...


*(COMMENT)*

This is depends on the form of government chosen...  Of the 6 Arab Nations that took direct part in the attack on Israel (a PARLIAMENTARY DEMOCRACY) in 1948 - they are all sovereign states:  

•  Lebanon  is a REPUBLIC: gaining independence from the French Mandate on 22 November 1943 
•  Syria is a REPUBLIC under an authoritarian regime; now in Civil War heading toward instability and chaos. 
•  Jordan is a CONSTITUTIONAL MONARCHY having gained independence from the British Mandate on 25 May 1946.
•  Egypt is a REPUBLIC having gained independence as a British Protectorate on 8 February 1922; but after revolutions begging in 1952 -  and ending with a return to the REPUBLIC after British Forces are withdrawn.
•  Iraq is a PARLIAMENTARY DEMOCRACY first gaining independence from the British Mandate on 3 October 1932.  After several coup d'état was - sovereignty was again transferred by Coalition Provisional Authority on 28 June 2004 to the Iraqi Interim Government.  There is still a troubling conflict in Iraq and the final government undecided.
•  Saudi Arabia is a MONARCHY over a Kingdom unified in September 1932.​
"*Sovereignty *is understood in jurisprudence as the full right and power of a governing body to govern itself without any interference from outside sources or bodies. In political theory, sovereignty is a substantive term designating supreme authority over some polity. It is a basic principle underlying the dominant Westphalian model of state foundation."   Turkmenistan, Saudi Arabia Iran, and China are all forms of "dictatorship" in which virtually no power rests with the people. 

Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## P F Tinmore (Oct 2, 2016)

RoccoR said:


> P F Tinmore,  et al,
> 
> Did this answer my question?  (No!)
> 
> ...


I did answer your question. You should have already known the answer.

But then you turn around to tow Israel's line.


----------



## Hollie (Oct 2, 2016)

P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore,  et al,
> ...



Obviously you missed it. There was not a single mention of Israel in Rocco's post. 

It's just buffoonish to spam threads with your silly one-liners when you have no cogent response.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Oct 2, 2016)

RoccoR said:


> P F Tinmore,  et al,
> 
> Did this answer my question?  (No!)
> 
> ...


But sovereignty has very little to do with the Kind of Government; and more to do with the entity that exercises authority over a group of people that are collectively united.​
What if that government was imposed by force with the disapproval of the vast majority of the people?

But true sovereignty belongs to the people, who in turn delegate it to their governments.​
Not in Israel.


----------



## RoccoR (Oct 2, 2016)

P F Tinmore,  et al,

I think you might be confused.



P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > But sovereignty has very little to do with the Kind of Government; and more to do with the entity that exercises authority over a group of people that are collectively united.
> ...


*(COMMENT)*

Makes no difference if the majority approves or not.  There is a list of "*Countries Ruled by Dictatorship."   *They are all sovereign.  Whether the people want it or not, sovereignty is held by Kim Jong-Il in North Korea every bit as much as the Grand Ayatollah, Commander-in-Chief of Iran and Supreme Leader, Sayyed Ali Khamenei.  Make no mistake, they are both sovereign nations.[/quote]
​


P F Tinmore said:


> But true sovereignty belongs to the people, who in turn delegate it to their governments.


*(COMMENT)*

Customary and International law generally recognizes only two competing theories of state recognition, with the “declaratory” view most often seen and is a very near opposite to the more favored “constitutive” view.
*The Circumscription of the Sovereign State: Theory and Practice*

•  The *declaratory theory* looks to the purported state’s assertion of its sovereignty *within the territory it exclusively controls* to determine if it can access the international plane.

•  The *constitutive theory* in that it holds that *recognition is almost irrelevant* because states have little to no discretion in determining whether an entity constitutes a state.​It looks like to me that you are describing a *new kind* of "sovereignty" called "true sovereignty."  I have seen people that are locked onto the idea that single forms of government:

*•  powers of sovereignty are vested in the people and are exercised by the people   (Chapter 11: Sovereignty)*​But this is generally true only (with trepidation I say this) in case of a "Democracy, a Republic, and in governments that incorporate the theory by Constitution."  In about a quarter of the world, the sovereignty is held by the "Executive" or in some cases by the "Royal Court."  As a Regional example being released from under the Mandate"   "On March 22, 1946, Abdullah negotiated a new Anglo-Transjordanian treaty, ending the British mandate and gaining full independence for Transjordan:"

TREATY OF ALLIANCE BETWEEN HIS MAJESTY IN RESPECT OF THE UNITED KINGDOM AND HIS HIGHNESS THE AMIR OF TRANSJORDAN.  London, 22nd March, 1946

His Majesty The King of Great Britain, Ireland and the British Dominions beyond the seas, Emperor of India , and His Highness The Ainir of Trans-Jordan;
ARTICLE 1.
His Majesty The King recognises Trans-Jordan as a fully independent State and His Highness The Amir as the sovereign thereof. There shall be perpetual peace and friendship between His Majesty The King and His Highness The Amir of Trans-Jordan.​
Here we see an example in fact, and still valid today. where the Mandatory extends recognition that the Emir is the "sovereign of Trans-Jordan."

Most Respectfully,
R


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## Phoenall (Oct 2, 2016)

P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore,  et al,
> ...









 No you ducked as you always do and went of on a tangent rather than give a proper answer. You prefer to toe the islamonazi line as it meets with your Jew hatred POV and supports the lies you have been told and believe


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## Phoenall (Oct 2, 2016)

P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore,  et al,
> ...








 Say's who, as you are not intelligent enough to make that distinction and all you have is what your islamonazi handlers tell you. 
 The government of gaza was imposed by force against the wishes of the majority and their disapproval, yet still you claim it is the valid legal government of gaza. When the people attempt to take back that sovereignty the dictators of hamas start to kill of the leaders of the dissenters. Then they attack Israel and place the followers in the line of fire as human shields as object lessons. But you refuse to see this and blame Israel for the deaths of thousands that are out of their hands.


----------



## Hollie (Oct 2, 2016)

*Can Palestinians Govern "Palestine?"*

There's no reason to believe there is an affirmative answer to that. The two rival tribes that are now in a position of political power have never shown any ability at managing the civil affairs of government. Both Hamas and fatah have greater concerns with skimming what they can from the UN sponsored welfare fraud program. 

I see nothing that separates hamas or fatah from any of the other corrupt, totalitarian islamic misfits who hold a position of power in virtually all of the islamo-dysfunctional middle east. 

I see no reason to believe that Hamas would, or couid, cobble together a functional government any more capable than what ISIS has managed to assemble.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Oct 2, 2016)

RoccoR said:


> P F Tinmore,  et al,
> 
> I think you might be confused.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the link.

Rousseau, far different from Bodin or Hobbes, *saw the collective people within a state as the sovereign,* ruling through their general will. In constitutional government, it is the people ruling through a body of law that is sovereign. *That is the version that commands legitimacy most commonly in the world today.*​

That is similar to my previous post that you have not refuted.


----------



## Hollie (Oct 2, 2016)

P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore,  et al,
> ...



The error you make is using a cut and paste snippet, out of context, and imagining it serves to bolster an argument. 

As it applies to your invention of Pal'istan, you need reminding that this invented place was not a state and there was no form of representative government that ruled through their (the people / people's) general will. 

Secondly, the "version" you ascribe to obviously complicates the notion of sovereignty as applied to the two competing Pal'istans (hamas'istan and fatah'istan). "*C**ollective people within a state as the sovereign,* ruling through their general will", is a bit of a stretch with regard to the Arab-Moslem terrorist dictatorships of Hamas and Fatah. There are practical matters to consider when attempting to add the label "state" to either Gaza or the West Bank and even far greater unresolved issues when attempting to apply the "... ruling through their general will", label. 

Terms such as democracy, representative governments and the governed 'ruling through their general will tend to lose association to their intrinsic meaning when applied to armed Islamic terrorist encampments. It's difficult to make a case for a population ruling through their collective will when that populace has no voice in representative elections. 

When was it that the Arabs-Moslems in either Gaza'istan or Fatah'istan were allowed by the ruling dictators to vote in elections?


----------



## P F Tinmore (Oct 2, 2016)

Hollie said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > RoccoR said:
> ...


_Guided​_by the purposes and principles of the Charter,

_Recalling_ its relevant resolutions which affirm the right of the *Palestinian people* to self-determination,

1. _Reaffirms_ the inalienable rights of the *Palestinian people in Palestine*, including:

(_a_) The right to self-determination without external interference;

(_b_) The right to national independence and sovereignty;

UN General Assembly Resolution 3236 and UN General Assembly Resolution 3237​
Notice that they said *Palestinian people.* They did not say government. They did not say state.


----------



## RoccoR (Oct 2, 2016)

P F Tinmore,  et al,

Again, if you read the text, just because the situation is one of the many Democracy types, or a Republic types, does not mean that the sovereignty rests in the hands of the citizenry (the people).  

But is is very true that when you have such a condition, where the sovereignty does rest with the people, it is only one type of sovereignty.  



P F Tinmore said:


> Thanks for the link.
> 
> Rousseau, far different from Bodin or Hobbes, *saw the collective people within a state as the sovereign,* ruling through their general will. In constitutional government, it is the people ruling through a body of law that is sovereign. *That is the version that commands legitimacy most commonly in the world today.*​
> That is similar to my previous post that you have not refuted.


*(COMMENT)*

Like I said, a Dictatorships or a Monarchys are also a sovereign government.  But the sovereignty of a Dictatorship or a Monarchy does not rest with the people.  *And,* the sovereignty of a Dictatorship or a Monarchy is just as "*true*" as the one you suggest.  



			
				P F Tinmore said:
			
		

> But *true sovereignty belongs to the people*, who in turn delegate it to their governments.


*(COMMENT)*

You sound like you are suggesting that to be considered a "true sovereignty,"  the sovereignty must belong to the people.  TO REFUTE:  That is simply NOT a true statement.  Sovereignty is not dependent on the people hold the sovereign power; it is an *invalid and unsound *deductive argument.  

It is not uncommon to see the pro-Palestinian advocates present non-sequitor judgments; for example that is unsound and invalid, but the conclusion is true:

*non-sequitor*:

The Curse of the Bambino will never end.  (F)
Sputnik was launched by China.                 (F)
--------------------------------------------------------
Therefore, en-passant is a move in chess. (T)

Notice that the Premises are false; but the Conclusion is true.  Also notice that the P1 has no association to P2, and neither P1 _(Baseball Superstition)_ or P2 _(Sputnik was launched by the USSR)_ have a relationship to the Conclusion _(Chess Move)_.

Saudi Arabia is a Monarchy and China is a embryonic Communist State.  Each are sovereign powers and each the sovereignty is not in the hands of the people.

Most Respectfully,
R


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## Hollie (Oct 2, 2016)

P F Tinmore said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



What's interesting is the foreword you chose not to cut and paste:

"Particularly interesting and problematic is the following: 

5. _Further recognizes_ the right of the Palestinian people to regain its rights by all means in accordance with the purposes and principles of the Charter of the United Nations;

The above phrase is a masterpiece of ambiguity. It could mean that the Palestinians have the right to use all means (including indiscriminate terror against civilians) to attain their rights, in accordance with the fact that the UN Charter supports self-determination. However,  it could mean that they have the right to attain their rights only using means that are in accordance with the purposes and principles of the charter, which does not support war crimes. Though it is hard to believe, since at the time of adoption of the resolution, the PLO and other Palestinian groups were engaged in hijacking air planes and killing school children, the former interpretation may be the correct one."

The above was applied to the concept of an Islamic terrorist enclave seeking "statehood", something the now competing Islamic terrorist enclaves have still, argusbly, not achieved. 

However, aside from your long cut and paste non sequitor, we still have: "It's difficult to make a case for a population ruling through their collective will when that populace has no voice in representative elections."

You still have not identified how "peoples" (remember peoples?) can achieve sovereignty without a collective will (an attribute never demonstrated by the peoples (remember people's?), in the geographic region called Pal'istan.


----------



## RoccoR (Oct 2, 2016)

P F Tinmore,  et al,

Again, this is subterfuge.



P F Tinmore said:


> _Guided_
> by the purposes and principles of the Charter,
> 
> _Recalling_ its relevant resolutions which affirm the right of the *Palestinian people* to self-determination,
> ...


*(COMMENT)*

Absolutely true... Again you are playing games.

(a)  The Palestinians have NEVER been denied their right of self-determination.  They have exercised it nearly a half-dozen times or more.

(b)  The Palestinian People have declared independence (1988); however, the Palestinians never actually achieved territory it exclusively controls; with Area "A" of the West Bank (1995) and the Gaza Strip (2005).​
The Palestinians exercised the right of self-determination three time by 1923 when it declined participatory positions within the government

The Palestinians exercised their right of self-determination when they declined to participate in the development in a UNSCOP Recommendations.

The Palestinians exercised their right of self-determination when they decided to reject A/RES/181(II).

The Palestinians exercised their right of self-determination when they joined the Jordanian Parliament and voted for Annexation.

The Palestinians exercised their right of self-determination when they decided to attempt a _coup d'état_  when they attempted to overthrow the Jordanian Monarchy.

The Palestinians exercised their right of self-determination when they declared independent in 1988.

What the Palestinians have not done is to attempt to build a thriving and productive nation.  The The Palestinians exercised their right of self-determination when they constantly chose the use force to attempt to achieve a politically outcome which they could not achieve through peacefully means.

Even today, the Palestinians exercised their right of self-determination when they refuse to engage in peace talks pursuant to the UN Charter and the Declaration of Principles of International Law concerning Friendly Relations and Co-operation among States.

The Palestinians exercised their right of self-determination when they refuse to accept the consequences for their Hostile Actions, Jihadism, Terrorism, insurgencies, rebellion and other asymmetric activity.

Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## P F Tinmore (Oct 2, 2016)

RoccoR said:


> P F Tinmore,  et al,
> 
> Again, this is subterfuge.
> 
> ...


The UN merely states Palestinian rights. It says "without external interference." Palestine is the poster child of external interference. It has been occupied every day since its inception.


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## Hollie (Oct 2, 2016)

P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore,  et al,
> ...



Your invention of this mythical Pal'istan is really remarkable. It is likely useless at this point to remind you that the magical place you have invented was, in reality, a geographic area. I hesitate to use the term "in reality" because you have invented an entire worldview around a place that "in reality", never had an inception.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Oct 2, 2016)

Hollie said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > RoccoR said:
> ...


To say the there was no Palestine and there were no Palestinians is an Israeli propaganda campaign and there is no evidence to support that claim.


----------



## theliq (Oct 3, 2016)

RoccoR said:


> SAYIT,  et al,
> 
> This is very applicable to the "Question of Palestine."  Certainly nothing about the range of possible answers is a given.
> 
> ...


BUT YOU CAN LEAD YOUR  HORSE TO MURDER,SLAUGHTER,EXILE Palestinians and STEAL THEIR LAND....Yours Comment IS DEBASED Rocco and therefore only SUITABLE FOR THE DUSTBIN.....MORE ZIONIST TRASH asshole


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## theliq (Oct 3, 2016)

Hollie said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > RoccoR said:
> ...


Holliie actually the Zionist Shit in Israel have not allowed the  Palestinians to build a vibrant and productive nation........the only invention here is Zionism and shitty members of this CRACK POT ORGANIZATION


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## Phoenall (Oct 3, 2016)

P F Tinmore said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...








 And the Jews were palestinian people weren't they, or are you going to deny them this right as well. While you ignore the fact that the Jews were palestinians and had the advantage of the LoN international law granting them land you will fall on your face. Also while you ignore the outside influence brought to bear on the arab muslims by hamas and fatah you will never see the reality. Now the arab muslims already have national independence and sovereignty in Jordan, and blew it by attempting a take over, the same in Lebanon  which saw many massacred by the ones they illtreated


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## Eloy (Oct 3, 2016)

It is unreasonable to expect a normal functioning democracy while Palestine is divided and under occupation. About 6 million Polish citizens died between 1939 and 1945 as a result of the Nazi occupation, half of whom were Polish Jews. Overall, during German occupation Polish territory, 1939–1945, the Germans murdered 5,470,000–5,670,000 Poles, including nearly 3,000,000 Jews. There were no elections in Poland during this time.


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## Hollie (Oct 3, 2016)

P F Tinmore said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...


You're a bit befuddled, here. Your invention of some mythical Pal'istan as an autonomous, functioning nation-state is the invented Pal'istan of your vivid imagination. 

The geographic area called Pal'istan was nothing like the fantasy world you have created around it.


----------



## Phoenall (Oct 3, 2016)

P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore,  et al,
> ...









By other arab muslims that are using it as a spring board to attack the Jews. Remember that the international laws  that set up the arab muslim nations also set up the Jewish nation and the same applies to the Jews as it applies to the arab muslims. Time to look at the real truth and see that the palestinians are just illegal immigrants doing what arab muslims do best and trying to steal land


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## Phoenall (Oct 3, 2016)

P F Tinmore said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...









 BULLSHIT

 Where is the treaty setting up the nation of palestine prior to 1988 then. Who signed to accept sovereignty of the nation and breach many International laws and International treaties in the process. There was never a nation of palestine in recorded history, and no amount of LIES, MANIPULATIONS and CHERRY PICKING will ever produced one. If there was any evidence of a nation of palestine existing prior to 1988 the UN would have forced the Jews to move away from Israel and hand it to the arab muslims.


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## P F Tinmore (Oct 3, 2016)

Phoenall said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Hollie said:
> ...


Who signed to accept sovereignty of the nation and breach many International laws and International treaties in the process.​
So many Israeli talking points without any proof.

Link?


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## P F Tinmore (Oct 3, 2016)

Phoenall said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > RoccoR said:
> ...


Time to look at the real truth and see that the palestinians are just illegal immigrants doing what arab muslims do best and trying to steal land​
Link?


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## Phoenall (Oct 3, 2016)

theliq said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > SAYIT,  et al,
> ...








 Where is the treaty giving the land to the arab muslims then, should be a simple enough task even for you to produce it to support your claims.


*Or are you once again posting just more islamonazi trash and white supremacist lies because this is all you have*


----------



## Phoenall (Oct 3, 2016)

theliq said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...








They had the chance when they were given 78% of palestine called trans Jordan and it is still 50 years behind Israel. It is the arab muslim SHIT that are to blames and they are the CRACK POT ORGANISATIONS  just look at hamas and fatah for examples.


----------



## Phoenall (Oct 3, 2016)

Eloy said:


> It is unreasonable to expect a normal functioning democracy while Palestine is divided and under occupation. About 6 million Polish citizens died between 1939 and 1945 as a result of the Nazi occupation, half of whom were Polish Jews. Overall, during German occupation Polish territory, 1939–1945, the Germans murdered 5,470,000–5,670,000 Poles, including nearly 3,000,000 Jews. There were no elections in Poland during this time.









 What has this to do with the thread, the palestinians have never been stopped from holding elections or building a nation by anyone but themselves. If you lookyou will see that gaza is not occupied under the terms of International law, so apart from the violence, illegal weapons, war crimes and terrorism by the arab muslims what is stopping them from laying down their  weapons and building a vibrant nation ?


----------



## Phoenall (Oct 3, 2016)

P F Tinmore said:


> Phoenall said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...








 No facts that are in themselves proof that you are LYING. It is the questions that should be asked in the UN to see what answers are given.

IF THERE WAS ANY SUCH TREATY YOU WOULD HAVE POSTED IT AND THE JEWS WOULD BE ON THE ROAD TO OBLIVION. BUT THERE ISNT ONE SO YOU DUCK, DEFLECT, DERAIL AND MAKE FALSE CLAIMS AND THEN ASK ME FOR A LINK TO PROVE YOUR CLAIMS


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## Phoenall (Oct 3, 2016)

P F Tinmore said:


> Phoenall said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...







To what a history book, or common knowledge. How much of the land infested by islamonazi's was stolen from its rightful owners. Try the former Yugoslavia or Lebanon as recent stolen lands, and all you have is the propaganda spewed out by islamonazi's claiming they were there first.


Read this and see that you are barking mad

Articles: The Truth about Islamic Crusades and Imperialism


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## Hollie (Oct 3, 2016)

Eloy said:


> It is unreasonable to expect a normal functioning democracy while Palestine is divided and under occupation. About 6 million Polish citizens died between 1939 and 1945 as a result of the Nazi occupation, half of whom were Polish Jews. Overall, during German occupation Polish territory, 1939–1945, the Germans murdered 5,470,000–5,670,000 Poles, including nearly 3,000,000 Jews. There were no elections in Poland during this time.


I think it's a mistake to propose that any future Arab-Moslem government in either of the Pal'istans will be any different than what exists now (a dictatorship typical of all the other Arab-islamist dictatorships that define the Arab-Moslem Middle East).

 All of the freedoms that we in the West have fought for and struggled to maintain, all of our accomplishments in the arena of social justice, so many of the benefits of Western civilization that we take for granted are derived from precepts that are antithetical to Islamism. The secular environments in academia and the workplace of the West, which have facilitated the achievements we've made in the sciences, technology, economics, medicine, the arts, and beyond, are also absent in the moslem world. Any philosophy or ideology which deviates from or contradicts the religion is called bid'ah (innovation). Living under a government run by man's law (democracy) instead of muhammud's (swish) law (sharia) is _shirk_ and thus inimical to Islam. Therefore, the modern Western precepts of human rights, justice, and civil liberties have been denied to Moslems, except in the West, of course.


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## RoccoR (Oct 3, 2016)

P F Tinmore, et al,

You have this mixed-up again.

In the case of the 1948 Independence of Israel, it was the Arab League that demonstrated the external interference and not Israel.  

•  The Arab League advanced across the frontiers into the territory formerly under the Mandate for Palestine.
•  It was the Arab League that violated the core tenant outlined in Chapter I, Article 2(4) and 2(7)​Keeping in mind that we should avoid entangling - 21st Century Doctrine - with - 20th Century Doctrine.

*(REFERENCES) *

•  General Assembly Resolution 36/301 entitled Declaration on the Inadmissibility of Intervention and Interference in the Internal Affairs of States of 9 December 1981
•  UN Security Council Resolution 242 of 22 November 1967 _(also known as. "land for peace" resolution)_
•  General Assembly Resolution 2131 (XX) entitled Declaration on the Inadmissibility of Intervention in the Domestic Affairs of States and the Protection of their Independence and Sovereignty was adopted on 21 December 1965
•   General Assembly Resolution 1514 (XV) entitled Declaration on the Granting of Independence to Colonial Countries and Peoples, of 14 December 1960
•  Chapter I, Article 2(4) and 2(7), UN Charter (1945)​


P F Tinmore said:


> The UN merely states Palestinian rights. It says "without external interference." Palestine is the poster child of external interference. It has been occupied every day since its inception.


*(COMMENT)*

•  "Palestine is the poster child of external interference."
Yes, in limited focus groups this may be true; but not everywhere to everyone.  Foreign intervention has been around since before Alexander the Great; and will remain a shadowy development in the foreseeable future.

Palestine is just one confrontation that exhibits Fourth Generation Warfare (4GW).  Warfare has evolved through four generations: 

1) Use of massed manpower:  War of line and column tactics, where battles were formal and the battlefield was somewhat orderly. 
2) Firepower:  Mass firepower, most of which was indirect artillery fire. The goal was attrition. 
3) Maneuver:  Speed, surprise, and mental _(as well as physical)_ dislocation; seeks to get into the opponents rear area and collapse him from the rear forward: instead of "close with and destroy," (AKA:  Seek-out and Destroy the enemy) with the motto: "bypass and collapse."   
4) Insurgency, Jihadism, Terrorism, Rebellion, and Resistance that asymmetrically employs all available networks—political, economic, social, military—to convince an opponent’s decision makers that their strategic goals are either unachievable or too costly. _(Break their will to continue the armed struggle.)_

•  ""without external interference.""
The core postulate to this question is _(excluding Chapter VII Article 51, Self-Defense)_ in legal terms, on "non-intervention" as an imperative legal principle of post-WWII Customary and International Humanitarian Law (IHL). 

In 1945, the UN Charter was the source of this Customary Law.  However, in 1965, the contemporary  prohibition was outlined in 2131 (XX)  Declaration on the Inadmissibility of Intervention in the Domestic Affairs of States and the Protection of Their Independence and Sovereignty.

_In the light of the foregoing considerations_, solemnly declares:







1.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




No State has the right to intervene, directly or indirectly, for any reason whatever, in the internal or external affairs of any other State. Consequently, armed intervention and all other forms of interference or attempted threats against the personality of the State or against its political, economic and cultural elements, are condemned.






2.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




No State may use or encourage the use of economic, political or any other type of measures to coerce another State in order to obtain from it the subordination of the exercise of its sovereign rights or to secure from it advantages of any kind. Also, no State shall organize, assist, foment, Finance, incite or tolerate subversive, terrorist or armed activities directed towards the violent overthrow of the regime of another State, or interfere in civil strife in another State.






3.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




The use of force to deprive peoples of their national identity constitutes a violation of their inalienable rights and of the principle of non-intervention.​ A further key element to the protection of Independence and Sovereignty, was (prior to the 1967 Six-Day War) that _it is an_ imperative need to create appropriate conditions which would enable all States, and in particular the developing countries, to choose without duress or coercion their own political, economic and social institutions.  Together with the prohibition that threat to use force against the territorial integrity or political independence of Israel [Article 2(4) of the Charter], the two reach into the 1967 Six-Day War and 
are directly applicable to the massing of 100,000 and the demand to withdraw that UN Emergency Force monitoring and buffering the Sinai.  

So, while the original conflict, initiated in 1948 by the Arab League was covered under the UN Charter, the subsequence threat and coercion used by the Arab League in 1967 and the 1973 Sneak Attack was additionally covered by UN General Assembly Resolution 2131 (XX).  

There is no question that of the many Resolutions on the topic of "Inadmissibility of Intervention and Interference in the Internal Affairs of States" Resolution A/RES/36/103 (1981) which is by far the most interesting.  It is the one that outlines the response to most contemporary violation of International Law.


Most Respectfully,
R​


----------



## P F Tinmore (Oct 3, 2016)

RoccoR said:


> P F Tinmore, et al,
> 
> You have this mixed-up again.
> 
> ...


In the case of the 1948 Independence of Israel, it was the Arab League that demonstrated the external interference and not Israel.​
You are forgetting that the foreigners declared Israel inside Palestine at the point of a gun.

But you do not think that is external interference along with other violations of Palestinian rights. Rights that the UN has affirmed have been violated.


----------



## Phoenall (Oct 3, 2016)

P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore, et al,
> ...







NO the Jews who were citizens of palestine took up their rights under international law and declared independence, the arab muslims had been trying to stop this from 1917 at the point of a gun. It was the foriegners of the arab league that tried to declare an islamonazi state on land already in another nations possession.

How about a link then to these rights that the UN has affirmed to have been violated ?   It must be from the UN and it must say those exact words ?


----------



## Hollie (Oct 3, 2016)

P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore, et al,
> ...


You are unable to accept that your false premises and skewed perceptions have been addressed multiple times across multiple threads. 

The mythical Pal'istan you have invented was not what your imagination has crafted. Pal'istan was the name for a geographic area that was most recently a part of the Ottoman Empire. As it has spelled out for you on many occasions across many threads, the Ottomans relinquished all rights and title to that geographic area. 

While you are still suffering from real emotional distress in that your invented "State of Pal'istan" was not what has existed in your imagination, the establishment of the State of Israel as a function of agreements and treaties at the time and the Israeli ability to seek self-determination (which the arabs failed to do) is a matter of history you will have to deal with. 

Your online tirades serve no purpose, Bunky.


----------



## Eloy (Oct 3, 2016)

Hollie said:


> Eloy said:
> 
> 
> > It is unreasonable to expect a normal functioning democracy while Palestine is divided and under occupation. About 6 million Polish citizens died between 1939 and 1945 as a result of the Nazi occupation, half of whom were Polish Jews. Overall, during German occupation Polish territory, 1939–1945, the Germans murdered 5,470,000–5,670,000 Poles, including nearly 3,000,000 Jews. There were no elections in Poland during this time.
> ...


You are not dealing with my post which illustrated how in the so-called West there was no democracy as such as well as bogus science based on racism within living memory.

It is for a people (such as the Palestinians) to decide what sort of government it will eventually have but this cannot be expected in their condition under a brutal occupation and blockade. The half-century occupation should be ended in the interests of the Palestinians indeed and for the Israelis who are living in a country that is in perpetual hostility with its nearest neighbors.


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## Hollie (Oct 3, 2016)

Eloy said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> > Eloy said:
> ...



I think you need to reconsider your comment regarding Pal'istanians choosing their own government. Obviously, the Gaza'istan version of Pal'istanians chose the government they wanted. They elected a rabidly hateful islamic terrorist franchise that serves only to exploit a UN funded welfare fraud. The Pals got what they wanted and Hamas is giving them the very "government" they now cannot remove. In a phrase, it's called _'Pal'istanian' Mentaity_™.

Who is responsible for this brutal occupation and blockade™ your writing about? Gaza is not occupied. The border controls that are in place both by Israeli and Egyptian forces is a necessary step by those respective governments to prevent attacks from the very islamic terrorist franchise that the Pal'istanian Gazans put into government.


----------



## Eloy (Oct 3, 2016)

Hollie said:


> Eloy said:
> 
> 
> > Hollie said:
> ...


I will not be replying to any more of your posts on the grounds that you cannot bring yourself to even write the words _Palestinians_ and _Gaza_. I consider your choice of words instead to be offensive.


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## Hollie (Oct 3, 2016)

Eloy said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> > Eloy said:
> ...


That, of course, is your choice. 

I will reiterate however, that the Gazan Pal'istanians knew precisely the goals and objectives of Hamas when they elected that Islamic terrorist franchise to office. 

Take the Hamas Charter.... please (ba dum bump... *cymbals*).  It is very explicit in delineating what its goals are and those goals are not focused on moving toward a productive economy and first world society.


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## Phoenall (Oct 3, 2016)

Eloy said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> > Eloy said:
> ...








 The occupation could have been stopped in 1967 if the arab muslims had stopped attacking Israel. As the rules say the arab muslims have to be violence free for 1 year before Israel will lift the occupation, to date they cant last 1 day.


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## Hollie (Oct 3, 2016)

Phoenall said:


> Eloy said:
> 
> 
> > Hollie said:
> ...


Yep. And the Pal'istanians had an opportunity in 2006 subsequent to Israel's withdrawal from Gaza to take steps that would demonstrate a desire to provide Gaza with a market economy.

Instead, they were in too much of a hurry to spend their welfare checks on materials for rockets to antagonize Israel.


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## RoccoR (Oct 3, 2016)

P F Tinmore,  et al,

Come on and get real.



P F Tinmore said:


> In the case of the 1948 Independence of Israel, it was the Arab League that demonstrated the external interference and not Israel.​
> You are forgetting that the foreigners declared Israel inside Palestine at the point of a gun.
> 
> But you do not think that is external interference along with other violations of Palestinian rights. Rights that the UN has affirmed have been violated.


*(COMMENT)*

On 15 May 1948, the UK as the assigned Mandatory, retired from the territory.  The "Successor Government" for Palestine, became the UN Palestine Commission (UNPC).  The Jewish Agency completed the Steps Preparatory to Independence, to the satisfaction of the "Successor Government for Palestine."   Pursuant to the Recommendations adopted by the General Assembly [A/RES/181(II)], the Jewish Agency, _(under Part I - Section B Clause 4)_ and a declaration was made _(having establish a Provisional Government)_ to the United Nations by the provisional government in accordance with the General Assembly Recommendation (Part 1, Section C).  At the public announcement of the UNPC Adjournment (Sine Die) it was noted that: "The Commission has not been dissolved. In fact the *resolution of last November 29 has been implemented*."

Resolution 181 (II) made the stipulation that " Independent Arab and Jewish States and the Special International Regime for the City of Jerusalem, set forth in part III of this plan, shall come into existence in Palestine two months after the evacuation of the armed forces of the mandatory Power has been completed but in any case not later than 1 October 1948. The boundaries of the Arab State, the Jewish State, and the City of Jerusalem shall be as described in parts II and III below."

It was noted in the First Special Report to the UN Security Council that "Powerful Arab interests, both inside and outside Palestine, are defying the resolution of the General Assembly and are engaged in a deliberate effort to alter by force the settlement envisaged therein."  In order to prevent further implementation of the Recommendations Adopted by the General Assembly [A/RES/181(II)]:

 "On 14 May 1948, Britain relinquished its Mandate over Palestine and disengaged its forces. On the same day, the Jewish Agency proclaimed the establishment of the State of Israel on the territory allotted to it by the partition plan. Fierce hostilities immediately broke out between the Arab and Jewish communities. The next day, regular troops of the neighbouring Arab States entered the territory to assist the Palestinian Arabs."
*SOURCE:* The Question of Palestine and the United Nations​This is the UN History - Chapter 2, Page 9-10 of the Source. 

This leaves no doubt that the Arab League Forces crossed their Frontier Boundaries and became the "external influence" attempting to prevent the Jewish Agency - Provisional Government of Israel, from exercising their right of self-determination.  

Since that time, while both Egypt (1979) and Jordan (1994) have both come to Peace Terms with Israel.  In 1983 The Government of the State of Israel and the Government of the Republic of Lebanon signed a May 1983; it was never ratified by the Lebanese government due to strong Syrian opposition to the treaty.   Syria, has its own special problems.  The People of Palestine have no single voice and no single policy. 

*(QUESTION)*

In any multinational organization like the UN, it is like a heard of cats.  There will be many and varied opinion on any issue you bring before them.  I don't know of a single international court hearing that has ruled on any Israel has violated any international law concerning rights.  

Most Respectfully,
R


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## P F Tinmore (Oct 3, 2016)

RoccoR said:


> P F Tinmore,  et al,
> 
> Come on and get real.
> 
> ...


Pursuant to the Recommendations adopted by the General Assembly [A/RES/181(II)], the Jewish Agency, blah, blah,blah.​
What part of Resolution 181 did Israel abide by?


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## Hollie (Oct 3, 2016)

P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore,  et al,
> ...


Who needs facts when met with your well researched and unassailable "blab, blah, blah"?


----------



## P F Tinmore (Oct 3, 2016)

RoccoR said:


> P F Tinmore,  et al,
> 
> Come on and get real.
> 
> ...


Powerful Arab interests, both inside and outside Palestine, are defying the resolution of the General Assembly​
It was their right to reject the partition of their country.


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## Hollie (Oct 3, 2016)

P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore,  et al,
> ...


The "country of Pal'istan"? Was this "country" an exclusive Arab country?


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## P F Tinmore (Oct 3, 2016)

Hollie said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > RoccoR said:
> ...


No, only racists worry about such things.


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## P F Tinmore (Oct 3, 2016)

RoccoR said:


> P F Tinmore,  et al,
> 
> Come on and get real.
> 
> ...


On 15 May 1948, the UK as the assigned Mandatory, retired from the territory. The "Successor Government"​

Like I said before. Another government imposed by foreigners.


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## RoccoR (Oct 3, 2016)

P F Tinmore,  et al,

You act as if I did not answer that question.



P F Tinmore said:


> What part of Resolution 181 did Israel abide by?


*(ANSWER)* - FOUND IN POST #144 ABOVE!


RoccoR said:


> The Jewish Agency completed the *Steps Preparatory to Independence*, to the satisfaction of the "Successor Government for Palestine."   Pursuant to the Recommendations adopted by the General Assembly [A/RES/181(II)], the Jewish Agency, _(under Part I - Section B Clause 4)_ and a declaration was made _(having establish a Provisional Government)_ to the United Nations by the provisional government in accordance with the General Assembly Recommendation (Part 1, Section C).  At the public announcement of the UNPC Adjournment (Sine Die) it was noted that: "The Commission has not been dissolved. In fact the *resolution of last November 29 has been implemented*."



You have to remember, the Jewish Agency and the Provisional Government DID NOT have to meet the 1947-1948 P F Tinmore standard.  It had to coordinate, and complete the Steps Preparatory to Independence to the satisfaction of the incoming Successor Government.

Most Respectfully,
R


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## Hollie (Oct 3, 2016)

P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore,  et al,
> ...


Look on the bright side, it provides an opportunity to spend even more time seething with hatred.


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## P F Tinmore (Oct 3, 2016)

RoccoR said:


> P F Tinmore,  et al,
> 
> You act as if I did not answer that question.
> 
> ...


Nice duck.


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## RoccoR (Oct 3, 2016)

P F Tinmore,  et al,

This is 100% Correct.



P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > It was noted in the First Special Report to the UN Security Council that "Powerful Arab interests, both inside and outside Palestine, are defying the resolution of the General Assembly and are engaged in a deliberate effort to alter by force the settlement envisaged therein."  In order to prevent further implementation of the Recommendations Adopted by the General Assembly [A/RES/181(II)]:
> ...


*(COMMENT)*

I hope you will remember that in Posting #115, I made  note of your very claim.



			
				RoccoR said:
			
		

> The Palestinians exercised their right of self-determination when they declined to participate in the development in a UNSCOP Recommendations.
> 
> The Palestinians exercised their right of self-determination when they decided to reject A/RES/181(II).



Right, wrong or indifferent --- we all (Including the Arab Palestinians) have to live with the consequences from the choices they make.  Sometimes the consequences will be favorable, and sometime not.

But the Arab Palestinians do know that if they do not work for a prosperous future, but instead only work to hamper the progress of others, then the probability of success in favor of the Arab Palestinians gradually become less and less favorable.  That is why the Human Development Index Rating for Israel is so much higher than any of the Arab League nations, even the filthy oil rich nations.  If it was just about money, then saudi Arabia would much further ahead than Israel.  But it is not.  It is about the sweat and sacrifice the people put in to the positive aspects of the nation they are building.

Most Respectfully,
R


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## RoccoR (Oct 3, 2016)

P F Tinmore,  et al,

You are always trying to criticize the best parts of people, places and events.  



P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > On 15 May 1948, the UK as the assigned Mandatory, retired from the territory.  The "Successor Government" for Palestine, became the UN Palestine Commission (UNPC).
> ...


*(OBSERVATION)*

*ARTICLE 16*.

Turkey hereby renounces all rights and title whatsoever over or respecting the territories situated outside the frontiers laid down in the present Treaty and the islands other than those over which her sovereignty is recognised by the said Treaty, the future of these territories and islands being settled or to be settled by the parties concerned.
*SOURCE:* Part I Treaty of Lausanne​
*(COMMENT)*

You keep saying "foreigners" as if the Victors over the Central Powers were to be found in the population of Arab Palestinians.  (NOT)

It was a government imposed by the successors under Article 16 of the Treaty of Lausanne; after the shift from the Enemy Occupied Territory Administration to the Mandate Civil Administration as decided by the Allied Powers.  

Most Respectfully,
R


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## RoccoR (Oct 3, 2016)

P F Tinmore,  et al,

Again, you are being contrite.



P F Tinmore said:


> Nice duck.


*(COMMENT)*

What is that you wanted the Jewish Agency to do (exactly)?

What is it with your agenda?  Do you just want to complain about the ability of the Jewish Agency to get a better result then did they Arab Agency?

Oh yeah, that is right.  The Arab Palestinians declined to participate.

What particular task are you looking for?  Let's discuss your actual objective complaint?

Most Respectfully,
R


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## P F Tinmore (Oct 3, 2016)

RoccoR said:


> P F Tinmore,  et al,
> 
> Again, you are being contrite.
> 
> ...


There were many parts to Resolution 181.

Proposed borders
Land for two states.
International Jerusalem.
Rights of the people.
Citizenship.
UN control of the millitary.
Constitutions.
Where was Israel on these issues?


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## Hossfly (Oct 3, 2016)

P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore,  et al,
> ...


Speaking of ducks, it looks as though the West Bank is going to the polls and Gaza Strip is not. That's one fine duck. Apparently the Palestinian High Court doesn't think Gaza is mature enough to govern themselves.

*Judiciary in Gaza does not have necessary ‘guarantees’ for elections, says court*
The Palestinian high court on Monday ordered municipal elections to be held only in the West Bank and not in the Hamas-controlled Gaza Strip, though a new date for the suspended polls was not set.

The ruling could bring to an end hopes that the municipal elections would be the first polls since 2006 in which both Hamas and Palestinian president Mahmud Abbas’s Fatah would participate.

“The court orders the implementation of the government’s decision on the holding of local elections,” court president Hisham al-Hatoo ruled before a packed courtroom in the West Bank city of Ramallah. He said however the judiciary in Gaza did not have necessary “guarantees” in place for the holding of the polls. The elections had initially been set for October 8.


On September 8, the court suspended the polls following disputes between Fatah and Hamas over candidate lists.

Hamas immediately dismissed Monday’s decision as “political”.


Palestinian court orders polls only in West Bank


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## SAYIT (Oct 3, 2016)

Hossfly said:


> ...Apparently the Palestinian High Court doesn't think Gaza is mature enough to govern themselves.
> Palestinian court orders polls only in West Bank



Not only highly predictable, the "High" Court's ruling exposes once again the Pal's inability (or unwillingness) to establish the rule of law and justice in the Territories. Instead they continue to operate under the rule of tyranny and oppression, both necessary for the continuation of their war against Israel.

As noted in the OP:
While this (suspension of elections) is not an unusual move in places where the rule of law plays second fiddle to the ruling regime's whim, _it illustrates the failure of Palestinians to establish an electoral democracy and a genuinely functional state_.

The ascension of Hamas prompted the PA's Fatah ruling party to tighten their grip on their share of power which is most of the West Bank, creating 2 separate and competing national gov'ts. 

While Fatah's intention - the exclusion of a known terrorist gang from governance - may have been pragmatic, the result has been to engender oppression.

As things now stand the PA must either to form a single gov't with the rule of law and peaceful coexistence as its goals or to continue with Gaza and the WB as separate entities and perhaps create a WB Palestinian State sans Gaza.

The choice is, as always, theirs.


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## P F Tinmore (Oct 3, 2016)

SAYIT said:


> Hossfly said:
> 
> 
> > ...Apparently the Palestinian High Court doesn't think Gaza is mature enough to govern themselves.
> ...


There are no guarantees in the West Bank either where many Hamas leaders are illegally detained by the illegal government.


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## Phoenall (Oct 4, 2016)

P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore,  et al,
> ...








 All of it, and just because you are blinded by your Jew hatred and islamonazi brainwashing does not mean they didnt. It was the arab muslims that refused to abide by UN res 181 or any other UN resolution.

 WHY DO YOU ASK THE SAME STUPID QUESTIONS TIME AFTER TIME THE ANSWERS ARE THE SAME


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## Phoenall (Oct 4, 2016)

P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore,  et al,
> ...









 HERE WE GO AGAIN WITH THE " IT WAS AN ARAB MUSLIM COUNTRY" AND NOT A SHRED OF EVIDENCE TO PROVE YOUR CLAIM.

 What treaty named palestine as the arab muslim nation and dissolved the international law granting it to the Jews as their National Home.

Will you ever provide the evidence to support your claim, or will you just keep on ignoring the requests ?


----------



## Phoenall (Oct 4, 2016)

P F Tinmore said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...







Which is what you are when you deny the Jews their RIGHTS and support of International law. All you have is islamonazi propagand talking points and islamofascist blood libels as your evidence


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## Phoenall (Oct 4, 2016)

P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore,  et al,
> ...








 Was it or is it just the arab muslims that spread this LIE. No other part of the M.E. had any problems with the LoN appointed mandatories and worked with them to secure a future and a vibrant nation. Just the islamonazi scum wanting to wipe out the Jews as commanded by the mufti and the false prophet


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## Phoenall (Oct 4, 2016)

P F Tinmore said:


> SAYIT said:
> 
> 
> > Hossfly said:
> ...







If they break the laws of the country then how are they illegally detained ? That is like saying a mass killer in the US is detained illegally because he is of a different political party to the Senate.................


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## Phoenall (Oct 4, 2016)

P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore,  et al,
> ...








 What duck, he answered your question and showed you as the stubborn idiot you are. You are the one that ducks all the time when you ignore requests to produce the links naming palestine as a nation prior to 1988. Then ducks when it is shown you are denying the Jews their rights under international law, UN charter and treaties.


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## Phoenall (Oct 4, 2016)

P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore,  et al,
> ...








 In complete agreement as their declaration states


The Land of Israel was the birthplace of the Jewish people. Here their spiritual, religious and political identity was shaped. Here they first attained to statehood, created cultural values of national and universal significance and gave to the world the eternal Book of Books.

After being forcibly exiled from their land, the people kept faith with it throughout their Dispersion and never ceased to pray and hope for their return to it and for the restoration in it of their political freedom.

Impelled by this historic and traditional attachment, Jews strove in every successive generation to re-establish themselves in their ancient homeland. In recent decades they returned in their masses. Pioneers, ma'pilim [(Hebrew) - immigrants coming to Eretz-Israel in defiance of restrictive legislation] and defenders, they made deserts bloom, revived the Hebrew language, built villages and towns, and created a thriving community controlling its own economy and culture, loving peace but knowing how to defend itself, bringing the blessings of progress to all the country's inhabitants, and aspiring towards independent nationhood.

In the year 5657 (1897), at the summons of the spiritual father of the Jewish State, Theodore Herzl, the First Zionist Congress convened and proclaimed the right of the Jewish people to national rebirth in its own country.

This right was recognized in the Balfour Declaration of the 2nd November, 1917, and re-affirmed in the Mandate of the League of Nations which, in particular, gave international sanction to the historic connection between the Jewish people and Eretz-Israel and to the right of the Jewish people to rebuild its National Home.

The catastrophe which recently befell the Jewish people - the massacre of millions of Jews in Europe - was another clear demonstration of the urgency of solving the problem of its homelessness by re-establishing in Eretz-Israel the Jewish State, which would open the gates of the homeland wide to every Jew and confer upon the Jewish people the status of a fully privileged member of the comity of nations.

Survivors of the Nazi holocaust in Europe, as well as Jews from other parts of the world, continued to migrate to Eretz-Israel, undaunted by difficulties, restrictions and dangers, and never ceased to assert their right to a life of dignity, freedom and honest toil in their national homeland.

In the Second World War, the Jewish community of this country contributed its full share to the struggle of the freedom- and peace-loving nations against the forces of Nazi wickedness and, by the blood of its soldiers and its war effort, gained the right to be reckoned among the peoples who founded the United Nations.

On the 29th November, 1947, the United Nations General Assembly passed a resolution calling for the establishment of a Jewish State in Eretz-Israel; the General Assembly required the inhabitants of Eretz-Israel to take such steps as were necessary on their part for the implementation of that resolution. This recognition by the United Nations of the right of the Jewish people to establish their State is irrevocable.

This right is the natural right of the Jewish people to be masters of their own fate, like all other nations, in their own sovereign State.

ACCORDINGLY WE, MEMBERS OF THE PEOPLE'S COUNCIL, REPRESENTATIVES OF THE JEWISH COMMUNITY OF ERETZ-ISRAEL AND OF THE ZIONIST MOVEMENT, ARE HERE ASSEMBLED ON THE DAY OF THE TERMINATION OF THE BRITISH MANDATE OVER ERETZ-ISRAEL AND, BY VIRTUE OF OUR NATURAL AND HISTORIC RIGHT AND ON THE BASIS OF THE RESOLUTION OF THE UNITED NATIONS GENERAL ASSEMBLY, HEREBY DECLARE THE ESTABLISHMENT OF A JEWISH STATE IN ERETZ-ISRAEL, TO BE KNOWN AS THE STATE OF ISRAEL.

WE DECLARE that, with effect from the moment of the termination of the Mandate being tonight, the eve of Sabbath, the 6th Iyar, 5708 (15th May, 1948), until the establishment of the elected, regular authorities of the State in accordance with the Constitution which shall be adopted by the Elected Constituent Assembly not later than the 1st October 1948, the People's Council shall act as a Provisional Council of State, and its executive organ, the People's Administration, shall be the Provisional Government of the Jewish State, to be called "Israel".

THE STATE OF ISRAEL will be open for Jewish immigration and for the Ingathering of the Exiles; it will foster the development of the country for the benefit of all its inhabitants; it will be based on freedom, justice and peace as envisaged by the prophets of Israel; it will ensure complete equality of social and political rights to all its inhabitants irrespective of religion, race or sex; it will guarantee freedom of religion, conscience, language, education and culture; it will safeguard the Holy Places of all religions; and it will be faithful to the principles of the Charter of the United Nations.

THE STATE OF ISRAEL is prepared to cooperate with the agencies and representatives of the United Nations in implementing the resolution of the General Assembly of the 29th November, 1947, and will take steps to bring about the economic union of the whole of Eretz-Israel.

WE APPEAL to the United Nations to assist the Jewish people in the building-up of its State and to receive the State of Israel into the comity of nations.

WE APPEAL - in the very midst of the onslaught launched against us now for months - to the Arab inhabitants of the State of Israel to preserve peace and participate in the upbuilding of the State on the basis of full and equal citizenship and due representation in all its provisional and permanent institutions.

WE EXTEND our hand to all neighbouring states and their peoples in an offer of peace and good neighbourliness, and appeal to them to establish bonds of cooperation and mutual help with the sovereign Jewish people settled in its own land. The State of Israel is prepared to do its share in a common effort for the advancement of the entire Middle East.

WE APPEAL to the Jewish people throughout the Diaspora to rally round the Jews of Eretz-Israel in the tasks of immigration and upbuilding and to stand by them in the great struggle for the realization of the age-old dream - the redemption of Israel.

PLACING OUR TRUST IN THE "ROCK OF ISRAEL", WE AFFIX OUR SIGNATURES TO THIS PROCLAMATION AT THIS SESSION OF THE PROVISIONAL COUNCIL OF STATE, ON THE SOIL OF THE HOMELAND, IN THE CITY OF TEL-AVIV, ON THIS SABBATH EVE, THE 5TH DAY OF IYAR, 5708 (14TH MAY,1948)




 On the borders this was the situation

 On the border issue, the original draft had declared that the borders would be that decided by the UN partition plan. While this was supported by Rosen and Bechor-Shalom Sheetrit, it was opposed by Ben-Gurion and Zisling, with Ben-Gurion stating, "We accepted the UN Resolution, but the Arabs did not. They are preparing to make war on us. If we defeat them and capture western Galilee or territory on both sides of the road to Jerusalem, these areas will become part of the state. Why should we obligate ourselves to accept boundaries that in any case the Arabs don't accept?


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## Phoenall (Oct 4, 2016)

Hossfly said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > RoccoR said:
> ...









 I wonder if hamas employ tinny for his celebrated one liners ?  Their response was very much a Tinnmore


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## RoccoR (Oct 4, 2016)

P F Tinmore,  et al,

Well, you have to remember that, on 15 May the Arab League crossed the frontier as armed aggressors exerting an external influence.  By launching such an attack it introduced a number of changes that otherwise may have turned-out differently.



P F Tinmore said:


> There were many parts to Resolution 181.
> 
> Proposed borders
> Land for two states.
> ...


*(COMMENT)*

In general, a formal declaration made by Government of Israel accepted all the obligations stipulated in the United Nations Charter is enclosed; at a time Prior to the Arab League crossing the frontiers as armed aggressors.  Once more, the The Partition Plan A/RES/181 (II) was a recommendation only; UN Special Committee.

•  Borders:   Prior to the Arab League crossing the frontiers as armed aggressors, Israel assumed their basic position as: he State of Israel has been proclaimed as an independent republic within the frontiers approved by the General Assembly of the United Nations in its Resolution of November 29, 1947. - See more at: The hidden documents that reveal the true borders of Israel and Palestine (Updated)

•  Two-States:  Prior to the Arab League crossing the frontiers as armed aggressors, the Israeli position envisioned a Two-State (Israel - Palestine) starting at the end of the Mandate, which would lead to the establishment of two states in a series of parallel stages. Because the Plan was rejected by the Arab side, it could not be implemented.

•  Jerusalem:  Prior to the Arab League crossing the frontiers as armed aggressors, assumed that the UN recommendation on the issue of Jerusalem would be the interim position.  However, the Government House in the neutralized area, established by the United Nations in its effort to pacify an increasing area of the Holy City. 

•  Rights of the People:  Israel did accept in principle, freedom of religion, language, speech and publication, education, assembly and association; including the non-discriminatory rights in civil, political, and economic matters.  

•  Citizenship:  This is a Part I - Section C - Chapter 3 - Clause 1: issue and NOT a Step Preparatory to Independence.  Having said that:  Israel had a basic acceptance that Arabs residing in the area of the proposed Jewish State intending to remain in the Jewish State would be granted Israeli Citizenship.  Citizenship would be a Post War consideration. 

•  UN Control of Military:  

•  Letter From the Agent of the Provisional Government of Israel to the President of the United States, May 15, 1948 --- states in part:  The "Provisional Government has been charged to assume the rights and duties of government for *preserving law and order within the boundaries of Israel, for defending the state against external aggression,* and for discharging the obligations of Israel to the other nations of the world in accordance with international law.

•  In S/1093, Israel adopted the position formally that the independence of the State of Israel was proclaimed by the National Council of the Jewish People in Palestine.   Since that time --- Israel has been improving administratively and defended itself successfully against the aggression of Arab League.​•  Constitutions:  Israel operates under the Basic Law concept, as do many independent states.  There several Basic Laws that pertain to the rights outlined in the Steps Preparatory to Independence.  One such law is:  *Basic Law: Human Dignity and Liberty*​
But what I gather here is that you are trying to find something that the Israelis did not accomplish within the list of Steps Preparatory to Independence.  And much of that was truncated by the Arab League crossing the frontiers as armed aggressors against Israel.  What I think is even more incredible is that for as much as you pound on the concept of these various rights you fail to acknowledge that the Arab League entered into an international armed conflict (IAC) on a justification contrary to the UN Charter.  While Israel seldom makes this an issue, probably because the Arab League lost more effective control, then it achieved.  This is true in 1948-49 Israeli War of Independence, 1967 Six Day War, and the 1973 Yom Kipper War.

Again, it should be stressed that Israel never took any territory that was under the effective control of the Hostile Arab Palestinians.

Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## RoccoR (Oct 4, 2016)

Hossfly,  et al,

This kind of political action under the color of law, is simply an example of how their forward thinking has shrunk to near zero.



Hossfly said:


> Speaking of ducks, it looks as though the West Bank is going to the polls and Gaza Strip is not. That's one fine duck. Apparently the Palestinian High Court doesn't think Gaza is mature enough to govern themselves.
> 
> *Judiciary in Gaza does not have necessary ‘guarantees’ for elections, says court*
> The Palestinian high court on Monday ordered municipal elections to be held only in the West Bank and not in the Hamas-controlled Gaza Strip, though a new date for the suspended polls was not set.
> ...


*(COMMENT)*

This is potentially one of the most devistating decisions made by the Arab Palestinians to date.  If this is used by HAMAS to form separately, then the West Bank will have lost gas/oil concession from the Levant Basin.

Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## P F Tinmore (Oct 4, 2016)

RoccoR said:


> P F Tinmore,  et al,
> 
> Well, you have to remember that, on 15 May the Arab League crossed the frontier as armed aggressors exerting an external influence.  By launching such an attack it introduced a number of changes that otherwise may have turned-out differently.
> 
> ...


Interesting link. I have read that before.

The hidden documents that reveal the true borders of Israel and Palestine (Updated)

There are some contradictions in this article.

The words of the Declaration are intended to suggest that the creation of Israel was authorized by the United Nations. This is not correct. *The UN does not have authority under its Charter to create or divide states.* The Partition Plan was a recommendation only. The Plan envisaged a process, starting at the end of the Mandate, which would lead to the establishment of two states in a series of parallel stages. Because the Plan was rejected by the Arab side, it could not be implemented.​
OK, so who does?

Borders can be changed, but a state can only acquire territory from a neighbor by legal annexation, that is, by agreement, and with a referendum of the population. Obtaining territory by war violates fundamental principles of the UN Charter. Nevertheless, this is what Israel did.​
So, how did Israel claim Resolution 181 borders when the UN had no authority to partition Palestine? Resolution 181 was a recommendation that was not implemented.

That is the contradiction. Accordingly *Israel could not acquire any land* without an agreement with the Palestinians. Not just the land outside of the partition plan that did not happen.


----------



## Phoenall (Oct 4, 2016)

P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore,  et al,
> ...






Once again you deliberately forget the LoN treaty that was made in 1923 that split palestine into 2 parts, the larger being the arab muslim national home and the smaller being the Jewish national home. The arab muslims calling themselves palestinians are there illegally and so had no say in what the Jews did when they declared independence. UN res 181 was just a guideline for what the anti semitic UN wanted to see, and when the arab league denied it they knew they would need to give the Jews all they wanted. Now where do you get your fanciful idea that the 22% of palestine granted to the Jews as their national home was ever arab muslim owned land.
You are once again backdating an international law to suit your Jew hatred as the concept of gaining land by war being illegal was not brought in until after the creation of Israel and was done so to stop the arab league from stealing Israeli lands. You really need to stop reading just islamonazi versions of history and star reading the proper history books and papers


----------



## RoccoR (Oct 4, 2016)

P F Tinmore,   et al,

You are not paying attention.  _(We went through this before.  You keep shopping around for answers until you hear the one you want.)_

And yes, I am quite aware of the "so-called" hidden documents.  Hidden is not quite the right word.  Normally we call them formerly "CLASSIFIED" -- or -- "DECLASSIFIED."  And the normal classification period _(the number of years before it can be released)_ way back then, was 25 - 30 years.  _(Remember, that was even before the Department of Defense was created.)_  By that time, they have already been moved in the Archive _(when no longer needed for reference)_.



P F Tinmore said:


> ​Interesting link. I have read that before.
> 
> There are some contradictions in this article.
> 
> ...


*(COMMENT)*

The Declaratory Theory is the "hard fact."   This "hard fact" was given form when Israel asserted its sovereignty within the territory Israel exclusively controlled.  While the Declaration of Independent may have been shaped by the UN Recommends adopted in 1947 [A/RES/181 (II)].

The claim you make it entirely wrong, as is everything tied to that tree of logic: "suggest that the creation of Israel was authorized by the United Nations."  The "declarative" method derives its authority from the "right of self-determination."   [See;  *(Recognition of a State)*]  The legitimacy of the State of Israel does not rest in some land transfer or acquisition document, treaty or agreement (you often ask for); although there are elements of that everywhere..  It does not really need to lawful authority to say it exists.  If the Jewish State of Israel is a physical reality, one in which Israel has exclusive control over, --- then it is.  Factual existence of exclusive authority.  The Israelis has it --- and --- the Palestinians don't.  It is that simple.



P F Tinmore said:


> There are to ways to acquire the territory under these specific conditions.  The way used was the
> 
> Borders can be changed, but a state can only acquire territory from a neighbor by legal annexation, that is, by agreement, and with a referendum of the population. Obtaining territory by war violates fundamental principles of the UN Charter. Nevertheless, this is what Israel did.​
> So, how did Israel claim Resolution 181 borders when the UN had no authority to partition Palestine? Resolution 181 was a recommendation that was not implemented.
> ...


*(COMMENT)*

Whether Israel claims the boundaries outlined in (off-the-shelf) A/RES/181 (II) --- or uses a drawing off the back of a Cereal Box, -- or the picture on a Milk Carton --- is totally irrelevant; it is the exclusive control and announcement.  If you are traveling down the road and you run into this:



THEN, you ran into the physical evidence for the existence of a frontier; in this case Israel and Egypt.

Really, it is quite simple.  Don't make it harder than it really is.

Most Respectfully,
R


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## P F Tinmore (Oct 4, 2016)

RoccoR said:


> P F Tinmore,   et al,
> 
> You are not paying attention.  _(We went through this before.  You keep shopping around for answers until you hear the one you want.)_
> 
> ...


The Declaratory Theory is the "hard fact." This "hard fact" was given form when Israel asserted its sovereignty within the territory Israel exclusively controlled.​
Like a military occupation?


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## Hollie (Oct 4, 2016)

P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore,   et al,
> ...


Actually, no. Occupation of the geographic area of Pal'istan occurred before the Ottoman Turks and later by Arab occupiers.


----------



## RoccoR (Oct 4, 2016)

P F Tinmore,   et al,

Well, you almost have it.  You are still shopping for the answer you want.



P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > The Declaratory Theory is the "hard fact."   This "hard fact" was given form when Israel asserted its sovereignty within the territory Israel exclusively controlled.  While the Declaration of Independent may have been shaped by the UN Recommends adopted in 1947 [A/RES/181 (II)].
> ...


*(COMMENT)*

In this case, there is some confusion.  A "military occupation" is all about "effective control" _(not exclusive control)_.  In a "Military occupation" the Occupying Power does not have exclusive control as is a sovereign power over domestic sovereign territory. 

Occupation may be defined as the effective control of a foreign territory by hostile armed forces. This definition derives from Article 42 of the Hague Regulations of 1907, which states that “Territory is considered occupied when it is actually placed under the authority of the hostile army. The occupation extends only to the territory where such authority has been established and can be exercised.”  (See Footnote #1:  Occupation and Other Forms of Administration of Foreign Territory.)  

Exclusive Control is more ultimate power to control people and events within the area of the sovereign state. 

Most Respectfully,
R


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## P F Tinmore (Oct 4, 2016)

RoccoR said:


> P F Tinmore,   et al,
> 
> Well, you almost have it.  You are still shopping for the answer you want.
> 
> ...


You are ducking my post.

Can Palestinians Govern "Palestine?"


----------



## RoccoR (Oct 4, 2016)

P F Tinmore,   et al,

You asked a question and I copied the question and answered it directly.  No ducking of the post!



P F Tinmore said:


> You are ducking my post.
> 
> Can Palestinians Govern "Palestine?"


*(COMMENT)*

*IF* the Palestinians cannot properly govern the Gaza Strip and Area "A" in the West Bank, *THEN*: what makes anyone think the leadership that has been in play for the last half-Century can bring it all under one functional government?

Most Respectfully,
R


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## Phoenall (Oct 4, 2016)

P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore,   et al,
> ...








Isnt that what Jordan and Israel did in 1949, on land that was Jewish under the Mandate of Palestine ?

 Remember this was never arab muslim land and they are illegal immigrants squatting there, unless you have a treaty that names it as arab muslim land ?


----------



## P F Tinmore (Oct 4, 2016)

RoccoR said:


> P F Tinmore,   et al,
> 
> You asked a question and I copied the question and answered it directly.  No ducking of the post!
> 
> ...


I didn't link to that post.


----------



## Phoenall (Oct 4, 2016)

P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore,   et al,
> ...








 Why do you always come out with this when you are shown to be wrong using unbiased sources ?


----------



## P F Tinmore (Oct 6, 2016)

P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore,  et al,
> ...


Rocco, you are still ducking my post.


----------



## Phoenall (Oct 6, 2016)

P F Tinmore said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > RoccoR said:
> ...








 WRONG you are the one ducking the answers because they go against what you believe, so you want to only see posts that agree with your POV.

The arab muslims had no say in what Israel or the Jews did, they denied the LoN and the UN when asked to come on board and be part of the solution. So they exercised their free determination and blew their whole foot off in the process, no do-overs can be put in place without breaching the UN charter, IHL and International laws


----------



## Hollie (Oct 6, 2016)

P F Tinmore said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > RoccoR said:
> ...



Here ya' go, Tinmore. 


_You are ducking my post_.™


_Nice dodge_™


_How does that address my post_™


The above are three of the most often responses you dump into threads when you're arguments are refuted. Feel free to save them in a Microsoft Word file for a handy cut and paste.

For as much time as you spend attempting to re-write history, the inescapable facts are that the Jews took the steps to establish independence, build a first world society and a modern economy, which the Arabs-Moslems could not. 

Over the last six decades, the so-called Pal'istanians have provided no indication that they have the ability to build a functioning society. There is nothing to separate the Pal'istanian terrorists from any other of the retrograde, third world islamic countries that seem to continually be struggling to claw themselves out of the 7th century.

Natan Sharansky, (who was a political prisoner in Soviet Russia) authored a book entitled “_The Case for Democracy_”. In his book he discusses the differences between the free societies of Western liberal democracy and the fear societies of communism, Theocracies (ie: Mullocracies and other such politico-religious ideologies that discriminate against and subjugate those not of the “required” ideology), and other forms of totalitarianism. Mr. Sharansky delineated many truths about the rulers of fear societies. They cannot maintain their authority through free elections, preservation of human rights or protection of civil liberties. So, they maintain their stranglehold on absolute power through a comprehensive institution of fear. When a people are occupied with threats of imprisonment, the dread of disappearing in the night or the real possibility of turning up beheaded, dumped alongside a barren stretch of road, they are not likely to challenge the status quo.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Oct 6, 2016)

Hollie said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...


Nice piece of verbosity but it says nothing about my post.


----------



## Hollie (Oct 6, 2016)

P F Tinmore said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...




_You are ducking my post_.™

_Nice dodge_™

_How does that address my post_™


----------



## Shusha (Oct 6, 2016)

P F Tinmore said:


> Interesting link. I have read that before.
> 
> The hidden documents that reveal the true borders of Israel and Palestine (Updated)
> 
> ...



P F Tinmore , RoccoR 

I think all of us know and agree that the UN Charter does not create or divide States.  181 was only referenced by Israel in its declaration as a descriptor of recognition and a willingness to implement the plan.  The question is whether or not that declaration had the legally binding effect of permanently ceding territory and if so, what subsequently became the legal status of the ceded territory.  

Did  the land become _terra nullius _(land belonging to no one)?  Did it remain part of the undivided nation that I call Israel and Tinmore calls Palestine?  Did it become territory belonging to the State which exercised effective control over it (Jordan and Egypt)?  

In order for Israel to have been deemed to acquire land by war or, indeed, to be occupying any of the territory, Israel must have had a border within that territory and then ceded part of it and then re-taken it.  When and how did that happen?  

And if that happened, how can Egypt and Jordan have signed a peace treaty with Israel declaring borders between those States and Israel?

My opinion is that 181 was not implemented and had no effect either of itself nor through Israel's Declaration of Independence therefore, there was no change in the territorial integrity of the borders of the Mandate and the entire territory is Israel as was envisioned (required) in the Mandate (aka a Homeland for the Jewish People, by right of historical sovereignty).  However, that said, Israel recognizes the existence of another peoples in that territory, acknowledges their desire for self-determination and separation of some portion of Israel into another nation State.  




Does anyone have a reference for a requirement for a referendum before treaty negotiations and subsequent changes in territorial sovereignty?  I have never seen such a thing.  And I don't believe referendums were held in many, if any, of the newly created States during the same events.  (And WOW! would that ever have consequences in issue of the "settlements".)


----------



## Kondor3 (Oct 6, 2016)

Can Palestinians govern themselves?

No.

For that, you need a united people.

For that, you need more than two postage-stamp sized pieces of land, in order to sustain a nation.

The rag-tag, ignorant, rabid, in-fighting, motley crew we jokingly call 'Palestinians', lack the land, resources, unity, resolve, intelligence and talent to do it.


----------



## RoccoR (Oct 6, 2016)

P F Tinmore,  et al,

No, I labeled each point and answered each.



P F Tinmore said:


> Rocco, you are still ducking my post.


*(COMMENT)*

Nothing happens instantaneously.  When the Arab League decided to break the UN Charter and cross their frontiers _(fully expecting to suppress the Jewish State)_, the entire process changed at that point.  Even the Successor Government changed hands.

So, Arab League was unable to achieve any significant military objective in the 1948-49 Conflict, that they would compensate for the political and diplomatic failures as a result of excessive demands.  And that leads us right up to today. The pattern in the lack of military accomplishment _(not once, not twice, not even on the third attempt with a sneak attack) _and the continuation of perpetual threats for perpetual conflict by Jihadist, Terrorist, Fedayeen Activity, Rebels and organized Resistance Impostors, brings us to the point where the fantasy land of the State of Palestine only exists by the grace of donor nations.

As the League of Nations Covenant said, "until such time as they are able to stand alone."  Now I have heard nearly every excuse about why the Hostile Arab Palestinians have been unable to achieve the "stand alone" goal.  And the excuses nearly always point to the Israelis (the Israelis did this and the Israelis did that).  It should be noted that between 1949 _(The Armistices)_ and 1967 _(The Six-Day War)_ Israel was peaceful and building a nation.   During that time, the Hostile Arab Palestinians, accomplished nothing that would add significantly to national development.

AND NO!  I did not duck anything in your post.  You are just trying to find some political bone to pick just to make it appear that the Palestinians are Lilly White and the Israelis are Light Green and Loam.

Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## P F Tinmore (Oct 6, 2016)

RoccoR said:


> P F Tinmore,  et al,
> 
> No, I labeled each point and answered each.
> 
> ...


What part of all this addresses my post?

Borders can be changed, but a state can only acquire territory from a neighbor by legal annexation, that is, by agreement, and with a referendum of the population. Obtaining territory by war violates fundamental principles of the UN Charter. Nevertheless, this is what Israel did.​
So, how did Israel claim Resolution 181 borders when the UN had no authority to partition Palestine? Resolution 181 was a recommendation that was not implemented.

That is the contradiction. Accordingly *Israel could not acquire any land* without an agreement with the Palestinians. Not just the land outside of the partition plan that did not happen.​


----------



## RoccoR (Oct 6, 2016)

P F Tinmore,  et al,

Again, you are not reading.



P F Tinmore said:


> What part of all this addresses my post?
> 
> Borders can be changed, but a state can only acquire territory from a neighbor by legal annexation, that is, by agreement, and with a referendum of the population. Obtaining territory by war violates fundamental principles of the UN Charter. Nevertheless, this is what Israel did.​So, how did Israel claim Resolution 181 borders when the UN had no authority to partition Palestine? Resolution 181 was a recommendation that was not implemented.
> 
> That is the contradiction. Accordingly *Israel could not acquire any land* without an agreement with the Palestinians. Not just the land outside of the partition plan that did not happen.​


*(COMMENT)*

A/RES/181 (II) is a recommended action guide.  BUT as has been said over and over again, the DECLARATIVE process using the self-determination was the authority to lay claim from the Allied Powers have title and rights by Treaty.

Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## P F Tinmore (Oct 6, 2016)

RoccoR said:


> P F Tinmore,  et al,
> 
> Again, you are not reading.
> 
> ...


That ducks my post.


----------



## flacaltenn (Oct 6, 2016)

P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore,  et al,
> ...




You don't give military aid to a place that has no generally agreed upon govt. And is split between rival factions that want to kill each other. . Are you nutz? That shouldn't even BE on the table until the proper leadership and authorities are in place.


----------



## flacaltenn (Oct 6, 2016)

One of Two things need to happen. Because it's clear that there is no history of a united governed Palestine and recent history bears out how fragile any attempts to Nationalize the cause really are. 

1) There must be a "protectorate" based on a neighborhood solution. With Egypt, Jordan, Lebanon, Israel joining in. That's what's left of STABILITY in the entire region outside of Iran. Put aside the Pali territory, create transportation and trade corridors and hold it all in TRUST until some form of self-governance is established WITHOUT extremist influence. Doesn't have to be a single nation state. Could be a weak federation of City States. 

Do it FOR them OR -- 

2) Set a date certain for a UNIFIED and RATIFIED Pali government. Time is floating by. And generations are being wasted. Open special diplomatic channels to the neighborhood including Israel. Laying out a timetable for a full proposal on how this govt derives funding, creation of a legal system, proposals for policing, adherence to Intl law, etc. NO talks on borders, aid or trade until this is done.  No more than 4 years. 

If the timeline is NOT MET or they start killing each other again -- reconsider #1. 
Barring those options, there will never a Pali state. Best hope would be a semi-autonomous region composed of a few independently governed city states. Gaza, Ramallah, Hebron, ect.


----------



## Shusha (Oct 6, 2016)

P F Tinmore said:


> That is the contradiction. Accordingly *Israel could not acquire any land* without an agreement with the Palestinians. Not just the land outside of the partition plan that did not happen.



Israel did not acquire land.  At no time has Israel acquired any territory.  Step by step.  

The Ottoman Empire was dissolved.  

The Ottoman Empire (now Turkey) ceded all claims to territory, of which, "Palestine" was part.  

The territory was ceded to the control of the Allied Powers for the purpose of self-determination and self-government of various groups as they became capable of said government.

One of those groups was the Jewish People and the territory ceded for their self-determination and self-government was what was left of "Palestine" after Jordan's people were given its own self-determination.  

The Jewish People, having completed the necessary steps, having established a government, DECLARED its independence (from the Mandate of the Allied Powers) just as Jordan and Syria and Iraq declared their independence.  It is the declaration of independence and the recognition of independence which brings a State into being.  Done and done.  Israel is a State on all of the territory.  

Jordan and Egypt sign peace treaties with Israel delineating the borders between their respective nations and Israel.  

Much later, 1988, Palestine declared its own independence (from Israel).  Israel essentially accepted this in principle.  A negotiated peace treaty between Israel and the government of Palestine permitted Palestine temporary government over Gaza and Area A and temporary limited government over Area B.  Israel maintains complete control over Area C (they maintain control -- they already had it both legally and effectively).  ALL final dispositions were left to negotiation and treaty.  

So, P F Tinmore , where do you think I have this wrong and why?


----------



## Phoenall (Oct 7, 2016)

P F Tinmore said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...









 It says that your post is a fantasy built by you to appease your stupidity


----------



## Phoenall (Oct 7, 2016)

P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore,  et al,
> ...









This all boils down to your refusal to provide any link that states that the arab muslims were granted any part of Jewish palestine after 1917. You are going on one persons POV and his lies and manipulations to show that palestine the nation was invented by the LoN in their treaties of Sevres and Lausanne. The reality is that neither treaty mentions palestine by name, or grants the arab muslims full control of all of palestine. Why would Israel need the palestinians go ahead when the palestinians did not own any of the land


----------



## Phoenall (Oct 7, 2016)

P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore,  et al,
> ...








No it puts your post were it belongs, with the rest of the trash. You have a very weird view of what happened in the M.E. from 1917 to 1967 and so use modern international law to attempt to pull the wool over peoples eyes. A pity you have no evidence to support your claims and so are left with egg on your face every time you post your islamonazi propaganda


----------



## P F Tinmore (Oct 7, 2016)

Shusha said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > That is the contradiction. Accordingly *Israel could not acquire any land* without an agreement with the Palestinians. Not just the land outside of the partition plan that did not happen.
> ...


The territory was ceded to the control of the Allied Powers for the purpose of self-determination and self-government of various groups *as they became capable of said government.*​

No they didn't. Read Article 30 of the Treaty of Lausanne.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Oct 7, 2016)

Phoenall said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > RoccoR said:
> ...


This all boils down to your refusal to provide any link that states that the arab muslims were granted any part of Jewish palestine after 1917.​
False question.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Oct 7, 2016)

flacaltenn said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > RoccoR said:
> ...


The security forces in the illegal "PA" in the West Bank is armed, paid, and trained by the US to take out Hamas and other resistance factions. The so called unity government wants to put those forces in Gaza. Of course Hamas is opposed to that. Hamas ran those US supported forces out of Gaza in 2007.


----------



## RoccoR (Oct 7, 2016)

P F Tinmore,  et al,

Yes, this is a gross misinterpretation by the pro-Palestinians to suggest the Treaty says something that it clearly does not.



P F Tinmore said:


> No they didn't. Read Article 30 of the Treaty of Lausanne.


*(COMMENT)*

Article 30 is about the *nationality* of residences.  It is not about the sovereignty of the *territory *or any transfer.

Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## RoccoR (Oct 7, 2016)

P F Tinmore,  et al,

Sometimes you just kill me.



P F Tinmore said:


> Phoenall said:
> 
> 
> > This all boils down to your refusal to provide any link that states that the arab muslims were granted any part of Jewish palestine after 1917.​
> ...


*(COMMENT)*

A question can be neither be "true" or "false."  It is either a question, or it is not.  An answer can be "true" or "false."

Questions can present a *false dilemma *--- or it can ask a question where only imaginary answers are available.  A question can be limited in it possible answers where reality is not --- meaning the answer cannot be strictly "binary:"  Yes or No --- Black or White --- Good or Evil --- right or wrong --- etc.

The "Question of Palestine" has been around from more than a half century.  It does not lend itself to limits of binary thinking so often representative of the Hostile Arab Palestinian thinking.  _(Conflict or No Conflict --- as opposed to --- Hostilities or Peace)_

We have known since the time of Sir Isaac Newton that humans operate in a three-dimensional universe + time.  But most living creatures have no concept of what a dimension is _(X, Y, Z riding on T)_.   Often we are expected to answer Palestinian questions with a two-dimensional (verbal or written) model when there are at least two other dimension.  Any two dimensional answer can only be part of an answer to a multi-dimensional  question.

Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## P F Tinmore (Oct 7, 2016)

RoccoR said:


> P F Tinmore,  et al,
> 
> Sometimes you just kill me.
> 
> ...


What treaty mentions "Arab Muslims?"

What treaty mention a "Jewish Palestine?"


----------



## Hollie (Oct 7, 2016)

P F Tinmore said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



Conspiracy theories designed to sidestep accountability on the part of Arabs-moslems are standard drivel for Islamic terrorist apologists.


----------



## RoccoR (Oct 7, 2016)

P F Tinmore,  et al,

There you go again.  The treaties speak to the "parties to the treaty;" rarely a third party, not a concerned party to the treaty.

I don't believe that I mentioned a treaty about such that you ask.  You will have to refresh my memory on what you are talking about.

The Treaty of Lausanne speaks to the parties of the Treaty; the Allied Powers and the Ottoman/Turkish Republic.    And in generalities, it could be speaking to any nationality or culture that was considered a "habitual resident."



P F Tinmore said:


> What treaty mentions "Arab Muslims?"
> 
> What treaty mention a "Jewish Palestine?"


*(COMMENT)*

To my knowledge, I have not spoken of a Treaty that uses this terminology.  That is language used by larger bodies to make religious and cultural distinctions.

Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## Phoenall (Oct 7, 2016)

P F Tinmore said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...







Where does it say what you claim in article 30 then


SECTION II .
NATIONALITY.
ARTICLE 30.

Turkish subjects habitually resident in territory which in accordance with the provisions of the present Treaty is detached from Turkey will become ipsofacto, in the conditions laid down by the local law, nationals of the State to which such territory is transferred.


This means that the arab muslims that arrived after JULY 24, 1923 are not covered by this treaty. You cant make a treaty apply to an aspect it was never meant to cover, and as we all know the arab muslim illegally migrated to palestine to swell their numbers


----------



## Phoenall (Oct 7, 2016)

P F Tinmore said:


> Phoenall said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...








 WRONG it is a valid question as no such link exists outside of your fantasy world does it. There is no treaty that names the arab muslim nation of palestine as being in existence. All you have is the same stupid work by an islamonazi liar proven to alter the wording of treaties and international laws , add his own words to treaties and uses international retrospectively to make himself look intelligent.


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## Phoenall (Oct 7, 2016)

P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
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 None mention arab muslims because they refused to be part of the solution. 

 The mandate mentions the splitting of palestine into trans Jordan and the Jewish national home. I believe that this was also called Jewish palestine


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## P F Tinmore (Oct 7, 2016)

Phoenall said:


> P F Tinmore said:
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Indeed, the Muslims/Christians were about 93% of the population at the turn of the century. With their mass immigration their numbers zoomed up to 65% by 1947.


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## esthermoon (Oct 7, 2016)

They can't just because they don't have a country to rule!
Maybe Israelis and Palestinians should split in two Palestine then they could have two indipendent countries (a jewish one for Israelis and a muslim one for Palestinians)


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## P F Tinmore (Oct 7, 2016)

Phoenall said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
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> > RoccoR said:
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No treaty, to my knowledge, used those racist terms.


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## RoccoR (Oct 7, 2016)

P F Tinmore,  et al,

I think you have it wrong here.



P F Tinmore said:


> No treaty, to my knowledge, used those racist terms.


*(COMMENT)*

"Arab Muslims?"  ---- is analogous to saying "American Christians."  

"Jewish Palestine?"  ---- is analogous to saying "Christian America."   

The words Jewish and Muslim are both religions.  Arab and Jewish are acceptable terms for the two religious factions.   Similarly, Arab is a description of a specific cultural member.  

Most Respectfully,
R


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## P F Tinmore (Oct 7, 2016)

RoccoR said:


> P F Tinmore,  et al,
> 
> I think you have it wrong here.
> 
> ...


Terms used only by racists. Nothing of the sort was mentioned in treaties.

When all residents were mentioned that included Muslims, Christians, and Jews.


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## Phoenall (Oct 7, 2016)

P F Tinmore said:


> Phoenall said:
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Were they, then why does the Ottoman census show the Jews to be the majority. Do explain why you mix data from separate era's to arrive at a figure that meets with your POV . Did you forget that in 1931 the first official census or head count included trans Jordan. The census or head count in 1947 did not include Jordan so is out by at least 30%.


 Just to upset you here is a link that shows the demographics and proves you wrong

.AOLWebSuite .AOLAttachedImage {max-width:275px; max-height:275px;} .AOLWebSuite .AOLPicturesFullSizeLink { height: 1px; width: 1px; overflow: hidden; } .AOLWebSuite a {color:blue; text-decoration: underline; cursor: pointer} .AOLWebSuite a.hsSig {cursor: default} .AOLWebSuiteM1 {margin: 10px 20px;} .AOLWebSuiteM2 {margin: 5px;} .AOLWebSuiteM3 {margin: 10px;} .dmItemSelected {padding: 2px !important;text-decoration: none !important;color:#fff !important;background-color: #656565 !important;border-radius: 2px;}
CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Jerusalem (After 1291)
CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA Jerusalem After 1291 

"...Present condition of the City: (1907 edition)

Jerusalem (El Quds) is the capital of a sanjak and the seat of a mutasarrif directly dependent on the Sublime Porte. In the administration of the sanjak the mutasarrif is assisted by a council called majlis ida ra; the city has a municipal government (majlis baladiye) presided over by a mayor. The total population is estimated at 66,000. *The Turkish census of 1905, which counts only Ottoman subjects, gives these figures:
Jews, 45,000; Moslems, 8,000; Orthodox Christians, 6000;* Latins, 2500; Armenians, 950; Protestants, 800; Melkites, 250; Copts, 150; Abyssinians, 100; Jacobites, 100; Catholic Syrians, 50. During the Nineteenth century large suburbs to the north and east have grown up, chiefly for the use of the Jewish colony. These suburbs contain nearly Half the present population...""

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Growth of Jerusalem 1838-Present

....... Jews Muslims Christians Total
1838 6,000 5,000 3,000 14,000
*1844 7,120 5,760 3,390 16,270 ..... ..The First Official Ottoman Census *
1876 12,000 7,560 5,470 25,030 .... .....Second """"""""""
1905 40,000 8,000 10,900 58,900 ....... Third/last, detailed in CathEncyc above
1948 99,320 36,680 31,300 167,300
1990 353,200 124,200 14,000 491,400
1992 385,000 150,000 15,000 550,000

http://www.testimony-magazine.org/jerusalem/bring.htm


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## Phoenall (Oct 7, 2016)

P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore,  et al,
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 You need to read the LoN minutes of their annual meetings in regards to the various mandates


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## P F Tinmore (Oct 7, 2016)

Phoenall said:


> P F Tinmore said:
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That was not Palestine. That was just Jerusalem.


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## Phoenall (Oct 7, 2016)

esthermoon said:


> They can't just because they don't have a country to rule!
> Maybe Israelis and Palestinians should split in two Palestine then they could have two indipendent countries (a jewish one for Israelis and a muslim one for Palestinians)









 That was done in 1923 and the arab muslims wanted it all, so that is why we have the problems we do in the M.E.


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## P F Tinmore (Oct 7, 2016)

Phoenall said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
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Indeed, the Zionists inserted much racism. The Palestinians did not divide people. They just wanted to include everyone.


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## Phoenall (Oct 7, 2016)

P F Tinmore said:


> Phoenall said:
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 Then your admision shows your lack of knowledge as they are common at the turn of the 20C


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## P F Tinmore (Oct 7, 2016)

Phoenall said:


> esthermoon said:
> 
> 
> > They can't just because they don't have a country to rule!
> ...


The Palestinians wanted all of Palestine?

How dare they.


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## Phoenall (Oct 7, 2016)

P F Tinmore said:


> Phoenall said:
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 Actually it was palestine as that is what the Ottomans refered to palestine as, the sanjak of Jerusalem


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## P F Tinmore (Oct 7, 2016)

Phoenall said:


> P F Tinmore said:
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Indeed, but that was out the window after the Treaty of Lausanne.


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## Phoenall (Oct 7, 2016)

P F Tinmore said:


> Phoenall said:
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 Have you read the many charters from their governments that say just this ?


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## Phoenall (Oct 7, 2016)

P F Tinmore said:


> Phoenall said:
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 Was it, or is this yet another deflection because you have been shown to be truly ignorant of the truth


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## Hollie (Oct 7, 2016)

P F Tinmore said:


> Phoenall said:
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Do what you usually do and re-write history to appease your tender, bruised islamo-sensibilities.


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## P F Tinmore (Oct 7, 2016)

Phoenall said:


> P F Tinmore said:
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## Phoenall (Oct 7, 2016)

P F Tinmore said:


> Phoenall said:
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 Is that the best you have an islamonazi propaganda map that proves nothing other than you can find what you want on the net


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## P F Tinmore (Oct 7, 2016)

Phoenall said:


> P F Tinmore said:
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That is a British Mandate map published by the UN.


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## SAYIT (Oct 7, 2016)

P F Tinmore said:


> Phoenall said:
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The real Palestinians - both Jew and Arab - created a state in '48 and are now called "Israelis." The mostly itinerant Arabs - an amalgam of Arabs from the region attracted to the new and growing economic hub and its jobs - didn't become "Palestinians" until after the Six Day War.

According to UN standards, any person (and their descendants) who spent two years in “Palestine" prior to 1948 - with or without proof - is now considered a "Palestinian" and was immediately eligible for "3 hots & a cot." But for its political importance in the war against the Jew, the term has no significance.

The Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan is home to the largest group of "Palestinians" (now Jordanians) and indeed was once part of the Palestine Mandate.

Walid Shoebat, a former PLO terrorist:
“Why is it that on June 4, 1967 I was a Jordanian and overnight I became a ‘Palestinian’?”

“We did not particularly mind Jordanian rule. The teaching of the destruction of Israel was a definite part of the curriculum but we considered ourselves Jordanian until the Jews returned to Jerusalem (1967). Then all of a sudden we were ‘Palestinians'. We removed the star from the Jordanian flag and all at once we had a ‘Palestinian’ flag”.

“When I finally realized the lies and myths I was taught, it is my duty as a righteous person to speak out.”
QUOTES BY WALID SHOEBAT | A-Z Quotes


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## PoliticalChic (Oct 7, 2016)

SAYIT said:


> P F Tinmore said:
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I spent a few weeks there this summer, and agree with you.


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## flacaltenn (Oct 7, 2016)

P F Tinmore said:


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Fatah would have sufficient resources and training to take out all the Hamas interference that they wanted to without us. We are NOT actively supporting Fatah now and in the past -- it was largely POLICE training and arming, not a military wing.


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## Phoenall (Oct 7, 2016)

P F Tinmore said:


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 LIAR    as it is clearly copyrighted by palestine remembered .com making in islamonazi propaganda.  Just look in the legend for the details. And as is usual the ottomans were lumped in with the arab muslims legal and illegal. This is to be taken with many pinches of salt because it means NOTHING


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## flacaltenn (Oct 7, 2016)

P F Tinmore said:


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Besides -- you're so deep into denying the Pali failings in this crisis to realize that the BIGGER threat are murders and public street executions that Hamas conducts in Gaza. There is no continued "purge" in the West Bank -- but it's a feature of life in Gaza.


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## Shusha (Oct 7, 2016)

P F Tinmore said:


> The territory was ceded to the control of the Allied Powers for the purpose of self-determination and self-government of various groups *as they became capable of said government.*​
> 
> No they didn't. Read Article 30 of the Treaty of Lausanne.



You make no sense.  The intent of the Mandate trusteeship was to provide tutelage by advanced nations until such time as the provisionally recognized governments were able to stand alone.  THAT is from Article 22 of the Covenant of the League of Nations, which I am fairly certain you are fond of quoting.  That was the INTENT of the Mandate system. You can't possibly be arguing that this was NOT the intent of the Mandate.  

What has Article 30 got to do with the intent of the Mandate system?

Are you meaning to say that Article 30 creates some sort of sovereignty or State?  Are you saying that the boundaries of various territories under the Mandate can NEVER be changed because Article 30 "fixes" them permanently?  How, exactly, does saying that all peoples who normally reside in a particular territory should become nationals of whatever new State is created there in any way affect boundaries or sovereignty?


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## Shusha (Oct 7, 2016)

P F Tinmore said:


> What treaty mention a "Jewish Palestine?"



Treaty of Sevres.  Article 95.


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## P F Tinmore (Oct 7, 2016)

Shusha said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > The territory was ceded to the control of the Allied Powers for the purpose of self-determination and self-government of various groups *as they became capable of said government.*​
> ...


Now I know you are confused.


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## P F Tinmore (Oct 7, 2016)

Shusha said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > What treaty mention a "Jewish Palestine?"
> ...


Treaty of Sevres was not ratified.


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## P F Tinmore (Oct 7, 2016)

flacaltenn said:


> P F Tinmore said:
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Israel's targeting killing was a big problem in Gaza. Hamas cracked down on collaborators now targeted killings are rare. Some of those worked for the "PA" and some worked directly for Israel.

You are taking things out of context.


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## Hollie (Oct 7, 2016)

P F Tinmore said:


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Actually, yes it was, endorsed by the Ottoman's.


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## P F Tinmore (Oct 7, 2016)

flacaltenn said:


> P F Tinmore said:
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There are hundreds of Hamas members in "PA" jails who have not violated any law.


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## Shusha (Oct 7, 2016)

P F Tinmore said:


> Shusha said:
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I guess you should have specified that when you made your comment.  You meant to say:  What ratified treaty mention a "Jewish Palestine".


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## P F Tinmore (Oct 7, 2016)

Hollie said:


> P F Tinmore said:
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It was not ratified and was replaced by the Treaty of Lausanne.


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## Hollie (Oct 7, 2016)

P F Tinmore said:


> flacaltenn said:
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Well, as long as targeted killings by Hamas are rare, I'm OK with an occasional Islamic terrorist goon squad bumping off an islamic terrorist.


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## Shusha (Oct 7, 2016)

P F Tinmore said:


> Shusha said:
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Help me out then.  
My comment was a part of the process of the State of Israel coming into being.  I said, in part:  _The territory was ceded to the control of the Allied Powers for the purpose of self-determination and self-government of various groups *as they became capable of said government.*
_
And then asked you which parts of the process I outlined that you disagreed with.  You disagree with the part that says "As they became capable of said government".  Then you say it has to do with Article 30 of the Treaty of Lausanne.  

So connect the dots.  How does an article in a treaty about citizenship grant sovereignty over territory?


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## flacaltenn (Oct 7, 2016)

P F Tinmore said:


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I'm sure that what's the judge and jury said before they killed in public street executions. They are BRUTAL killers and not fun to live with. They are never gonna lead Palestine to statehood. They are gonna make the entire Pali cause stale and not viable.


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## Hollie (Oct 7, 2016)

P F Tinmore said:


> Hollie said:
> 
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The Ottoman's endorsed the treaty of Sevres. More of your attempt to re-write history you don't understand.


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## P F Tinmore (Oct 7, 2016)

Hollie said:


> P F Tinmore said:
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> 
> > flacaltenn said:
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## flacaltenn (Oct 7, 2016)

P F Tinmore said:


> flacaltenn said:
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You should fix that then. You are so wrapped into the problems of Pali nationalism, that you cannot think about all the real work that needs to be done for the Palis to a discover a better form of "zionism". And to finally decide to be "a nation" rather than stone-throwing martyrs. 

Probably never gonna happen. Which is why I've accepted that others need to this for them. Whether it takes the form of "reservations" or vibrant city states is up to THEM. Not up to me or even YOU..


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## Hollie (Oct 7, 2016)

P F Tinmore said:


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 But yeah, these fine folks are stateworthy. Islamo-justice is a wonder to behold.


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## P F Tinmore (Oct 7, 2016)

flacaltenn said:


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Good points. I don't support Hamas' methods.


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## flacaltenn (Oct 7, 2016)

Hollie said:


> P F Tinmore said:
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> > flacaltenn said:
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If that's their choice, and it makes them happy -- I'm all for it. Wouldn't be the ONLY state in the UN with those handicaps. What can not be tolerated -- is to have that state hijacked by radicalized Islamists with a tendency to project violence across their borders.


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## P F Tinmore (Oct 7, 2016)

flacaltenn said:


> P F Tinmore said:
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Some people deserve to have stones thrown at them.

That said:

The Palestinians are ignoring their so called leadership and are pursuing their own path to liberation.


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## Hollie (Oct 7, 2016)

P F Tinmore said:


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Of course. Rocket fire at Israel, inciting the good Arab-Moslem terrorist to attack Israelis with knives, building tunnels instead of schools and hospitals... pursuing their own path to incompetence, ineptitude and retrogression.


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## Hollie (Oct 7, 2016)

Yep. Pursuing their own path to.... just another Islamist dystopia. 

Fearing Hamas win, Fatah officials call on Abbas to cancel elections: report

Officials from the ruling Palestinian Fatah party are reportedly to be so concerned rival jihadist group Hamas will secure an overwhelming victory in the upcoming elections that they have called for the vote to be cancelled.


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## flacaltenn (Oct 7, 2016)

P F Tinmore said:


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That's anarchy, chaos, and self-destructive behavior. They get their act TOGETHER or they become another failed "indigenous people".. You can't wing it by 3000 yr old rules in a neighborhood like that.


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## P F Tinmore (Oct 7, 2016)

P F Tinmore said:


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*Failing the Palestinian People: Lamis Deek at Reels for Radicals Palestinian Film Screening *

**


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## P F Tinmore (Oct 7, 2016)

flacaltenn said:


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You say that the Palestinian leaders suck.

The Palestinians agree with you.


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## skye (Oct 7, 2016)

SAYIT said:


> As has been the norm for a decade, the Oslo Accords-created Palestinian Authority has "postponed" the October elections. Unsure of the vote's outcome, Abbas's "Supreme Court" ordered the delay while they consider 2 election related issues.
> 
> While this is not an unusual move in places where the rule of law plays second fiddle to the ruling regime's whim, it illustrates the failure of Palestinians to establish an electoral democracy and a genuinely functional state.
> 
> ...





The Palestinians are completely hopeless and corrupt at governing themselves and if it wasn't for aid mainly from the EU they would by now be starving and not able to generously pay the relatives of the dead Palestinians who were eliminated for terrorists attacks.

They  are afraid of holding an election because Hamas could well win and Abbas is now deeply unpopular and called a Jew for shaking Netanyahu's hand at  the funeral of Perez.

Abbas  always have been corrupt and this  Taqiyya  handshake backfired - he is on the way out.

Who knows what can happen next, may be Dahlan will take over.


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## flacaltenn (Oct 7, 2016)

P F Tinmore said:


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That lady is an enemy of any self-governing Palestine. You may THINK she's a hero. But with the admission that the Palestinians are inherently "state-less people in a world of nation states" -- she BELITTLES them and marginalizes them to nothing but mere victims of modernity. 

Which would be the mind-set of a very leftist NY lawyer who has never faced down a Hamas Human Rights violation in Gaza.  

No nationalism, no unity, -----> no Palestine. That's just the facts PFT.  If you want to believe that marginalizing the ABILITIES of the Palis to choose leadership and their will to BUILD a nation is a GOOD THING -- you've already doomed them to failure and obscurity and wasted lives.


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## Hollie (Oct 7, 2016)

P F Tinmore said:


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Nonsense. Arafat II (Abbas) called off elections because the Fatah terrorists feared the Hamas terrorists would sweep the elections.


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## Hollie (Oct 7, 2016)

Lamis Deek-jihadist groupie


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## flacaltenn (Oct 7, 2016)

P F Tinmore said:


> flacaltenn said:
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These are not stupid people. There are plenty of sharp minds that understand the world and their situation. But for DECADES now -- they've been raised to believe that "resistance" is their only option. And to blame every one of their failures on the US or Israel or somewhere other than that blame belongs. 

They don't have to love their politicians. People rarely do. But they have to agree to unify and do the the hard work of establishing a nation. Because the West Bank is not gonna sit there for another 50 years without development and expansions. They NEED a deadline. And they need to WANT take responsibility for the improvement of future generations. 

Problem is -- the culture doesn't value the trappings of modern life. That's why their preferred leadership style is more Arafat and less Abbas.  Maybe they just need a couple dedicated all - powerful leaders instead of Parliament and Assembly and a "president".


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## P F Tinmore (Oct 7, 2016)

flacaltenn said:


> P F Tinmore said:
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First let me say that building a nation is not an option since Israel has been bulldozing and bombing everything and anything Palestinian since 1948.

What do you think she is doing wrong or right?

What do you think she should be doing?


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## RoccoR (Oct 7, 2016)

P F Tinmore,  et al,

There is no group of people in the world that has such a negative attitude about themselves, as do the Arab Palestinians.  The failures for nation building and positive development is nearly ALWAYS blamed on the Israelis.  It is never a consequence of Arab Palestinians criminal behaviors.

In the case of the Arab Palestinian, there’s always someone else to blame for what their lack of achievement and the consequences for bad behaviors on the part of the Arab Palestinian.  Constantly blaming the military, police and security countermeasures employed ---- and ---- the responses _(bulldozing and bombing)_ to inappropriate behaviors _(various hostile actions perpetrated by the Hostile Arab Palestinians) _coming as a consequence of their actions is just one such trait that has retarded positive progress and the improvements and potential for nation building.

•   The Hostile Arab Palestinians (HoAP) are constantly engages in self-defeating talk which convinces themselves that someone is holding them back.

•    Just watching the HoAP pawn their failures off on Israel, America and whoever else, is a mental failure that uses the excuse for the lack of knowledge skills and abilities to establish a peaceful and prosperous nation.

•  The HoAP wants to protect their image as a perpetual victim and to express pessimism in an effort to ditch the blame for their inabilities on anyone, other then themselves.

•  The HoAP set the conditions such that blame can be defined as HoAP holding Israel responsible for the misfortunes of the Palestinian people.​


P F Tinmore said:


> First let me say that building a nation is not an option since Israel has been bulldozing and bombing everything and anything Palestinian since 1948.
> 
> What do you think she is doing wrong or right?
> 
> What do you think she should be doing?


*(COMMENT)*

First, after the signing of the Armistice in 1949, there were really no major eruptions of hostilities between the Israelis and the HoAP until 1967.  And the 1967 conflict was based on a provocative action taken by Arab League members.

And again, house demolition of suspected terrorists's residences was done, not as a penalty, but to prevent the residence from being used further to provide material support to terrorism.

Most Respectfully,
R


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## P F Tinmore (Oct 7, 2016)

RoccoR said:


> P F Tinmore,  et al,
> 
> There is no group of people in the world that has such a negative attitude about themselves, as do the Arab Palestinians.  The failures for nation building and positive development is nearly ALWAYS blamed on the Israelis.  It is never a consequence of Arab Palestinians criminal behaviors.
> 
> ...


Maybe they should build a TV station.


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## Shusha (Oct 8, 2016)

P F Tinmore said:


> First let me say that building a nation is not an option since Israel has been bulldozing and bombing everything and anything Palestinian since 1948.
> 
> What do you think she is doing wrong or right?
> 
> What do you think she should be doing?



Stop.  That is exactly the problem that flacaltenn is trying to point out to you.  You are painting the Palestinians here as being without any agency to effect change on their own future.  The Palestinians have to believe that the Palestinians can, in fact, build a nation.  If they can't believe that -- if they can't at least have some hope of that -- they will never be able to do it.  

That is the first thing they (and she and you) are doing wrong.  

The second thing they (she, you) are doing wrong is denying the rights of one group of people and insisting that only one people have the sole rights.  They have to find a way of accepting that there are two groups of people here who have rights to recognition.  Whether that is in a two State solution or a one State solution is immaterial to the foundational idea that both peoples have rights in that land.  Give up the idea that all of "Palestine" is to be an Arab Muslim nation.

The third thing they (she, you) are doing wrong is lying, exaggerating and changing the meanings of words.  They need to tell the truth.  Knock off with the emotional victimhood language.  (for example, Israel hasn't bombed or bulldozed in Areas under Palestinian control (I'm leaving Gaza out of this as a lost cause for now) for decades.  Decades.)

What Palestine (and I am talking the "West Bank" here, not Gaza) needs to do (in no particular order):


1.  Invite Netanyahu to speak in Ramallah as he offered and start talking peace treaties with land swaps.
2.  Start welcoming Jewish people into areas which may eventually be part of Palestine.  These are taxpayers and nation-builders.  Be neighborly with them.
2.  Get out a map and decide which parts of Area C are vital to Palestinian interests and begin to delicately create facts on the ground.  But ones which don't interfere with Israeli interests and best done with Israeli blessing.
3. Police the crap out of anyone who incites terror.  The crap out of them.  Seriously.  
4.  Play nice with Jordan and Egypt.
5.  Encourage Jewish visitation and prayer to the Temple Mount.  Create joint services or celebrations or peaceful picnics or whatever.  Celebrate Jewish history in this place.
6.  Offer Palestinians incentives to move out of parts of Area C in which Israel is heavily invested.  
7.  Make the checkpoints within what one hopes to be Palestine joint checkpoints.  Police them in co-operation with Israel.  Because you have the same goal -- to prevent anyone from attacking their neighbor.  
8.  Reject BDS.  Embrace Israel investing in your country.  

to be fair here are some ideas for what Israel should do (in no particular order):

Give the Palestinians chocolate in all of the parts of Area C that Israel intends to keep.  (And by chocolate I mean water and electricity and roads and schools and hospitals and anything else they ask for or could possibly want).  Make getting a building permit the easiest thing ever.  Invest in their children.  Educate them.  Integrate the schools.  Invite Jewish families there but make it a requirement that all children go to a joint Hebrew/Arab school. Send your really great teachers there.  Raise children you are fluent in both cultures.  And respect both cultures.  Make sure all of the Palestinian families are employed and/or able to be self sufficient and/or receive equalization payments.  Give them full access to Israel.


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## Phoenall (Oct 8, 2016)

P F Tinmore said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...







 That would be you using article 30 created the nation of palestine when it deals with the nationality of the people resident at a particular segment of time.


----------



## Phoenall (Oct 8, 2016)

P F Tinmore said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...








 Yeas it was when it was incorporated into the Treaty of Lausanne


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## Phoenall (Oct 8, 2016)

P F Tinmore said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...









 And you have links to show this is the case, or are you just making it all up  ?

With modern satellite imaging it is possible to read the print of a newspaper, so why cant Israel use this to target palestinian terrorists and criminals ?


----------



## Phoenall (Oct 8, 2016)

P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore,  et al,
> ...










 And here we go again with islamonazi propaganda and talking points.


----------



## Phoenall (Oct 8, 2016)

P F Tinmore said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...









LINKS


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## Phoenall (Oct 8, 2016)

P F Tinmore said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...







It was incorporated with the treaty of Lausanne if you bother to check the details


----------



## Phoenall (Oct 8, 2016)

P F Tinmore said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...







LIAR   you post in support of them all the time


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## Phoenall (Oct 8, 2016)

P F Tinmore said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...









LINKS ?


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## Phoenall (Oct 8, 2016)

P F Tinmore said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > flacaltenn said:
> ...








Islamonazi propaganda is not reality, so cant be used as evidence


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## Phoenall (Oct 8, 2016)

P F Tinmore said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...









So why dont they do something about it ?


----------



## Phoenall (Oct 8, 2016)

P F Tinmore said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...









LIAR as Israel has bent over backwards to help the arab muslims live in peace and prosperity. If they did not use homes to wage war against Israel then they would not be demolished and this started in 1967.


----------



## flacaltenn (Oct 8, 2016)

Shusha said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > First let me say that building a nation is not an option since Israel has been bulldozing and bombing everything and anything Palestinian since 1948.
> ...



Bravo.. I'd be here more often if THIS ^^^^ was the tone of the discussion.  *It cost NOTHING to constantly probe and problem solve for solutions.* Even IF some subset of the problem solutions involve doing things unilaterally or in the interests of the Palis, who can't seem to get their act together.

I would add to your list -- the possibility of BOTH Jordan and Egypt kicking in some land to be established in the "swaps".  Egypt holds the key to securely connecting the Gaza to West Bank. And Jordan already has a lot of land currently holding Pali refugees in less than desirable conditions. And uniting those (largely unwanted) refugees could be an asset to Jordan. 

It's a matter of leadership. Israel, Jordan, Lebanon has it ---- and the Palis don't. But that shouldn't stop the neighborhood from spending a bit of political capital actually INVESTING in a better peaceful plan.. So you lose a little face by "being soft on Fatah" or "kissing up to Israel".  That's what leadership is SUPPOSED to do. 

And PERSONALLY -- I see HUGE advantages for Israel, Jordan, and Egypt to solve this stand-off and create a new Holy Land that is a better place to live. 

Great post Shusha...


----------



## Dogmaphobe (Oct 8, 2016)

P F Tinmore said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...




 Yes, you certainly do, but such as you appear to be quite the feeble old man, and the act of throwing rocks at you would be an illegal act, I do hope nobody does so - even though you ARE a revoltingly hateful thing devoid of humanity.

 As far as the made-up Arab group you support, the act of throwing rocks often involves the use of high powered sling shots or even heaving large boulders.  The intent is to maim, injure and kill Jews which you support because you are nothing but a bag or protoplasm lacking a human soul, but these actions have nothing to do with "liberation" and everything to do with murderousness.


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## Shusha (Oct 8, 2016)

flacaltenn said:


> And PERSONALLY -- I see HUGE advantages for Israel, Jordan, and Egypt to solve this stand-off and create a new Holy Land that is a better place to live.



I could not agree with you more.


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## Shusha (Oct 8, 2016)

Frankly, we need some more "good guys" with power leading in the Middle East.  Jordan, Egypt, Saudi Arabia and Israel working together would be a GREAT start.


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## P F Tinmore (Oct 9, 2016)

flacaltenn said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...


What borders have the Palestinians ever crossed?


----------



## P F Tinmore (Oct 9, 2016)

Palestinian Reconciliation, Netanyahu's Rejectionism, and American Drift | Huffington Post


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## Hollie (Oct 9, 2016)

P F Tinmore said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > Hollie said:
> ...



First, define these Pal'stanians from the mythical Pal'istan you have invented.

Second, the Arabs-Moslems occupying the disputed territories have crossed the borders defended by Israel and the borders defended by Egypt, for a start. 

.


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## Hollie (Oct 9, 2016)

P F Tinmore said:


> Palestinian Reconciliation, Netanyahu's Rejectionism, and American Drift | Huffington Post



Arab-Moslem third world'ers doing what Arab-Moslem third world'ers do. 


Palestinian High Court Rules Elections to Be Held in West Bank Only

*The Upcoming Palestinian Elections in the West Bank*
Voters in the Gaza Strip and East Jerusalem will be excluded from the vote.


----------



## SAYIT (Oct 9, 2016)

P F Tinmore said:


> Palestinian Reconciliation, Netanyahu's Rejectionism, and American Drift | Huffington Post


 
Not that your reply has anything even remotely to do with this thread's subject matter - the Pal's proven inability to establish a functioning rule-of-law gov't or society - but what, exactly, is the significance of an opinion piece from Dr Mustafa Barghouti, leader of the Palestinian National Initiative?


----------



## RoccoR (Oct 9, 2016)

Hollie,  et al,

Yes, this gets more interesting with time.

I find it really hilarious that the Palestinians can't seem to determine who are citizens and eligible to vote.

"The draft Law submitted by the cabinet and based on the ratifications of the 
PLC in its session held on 13/8/2005 and on behalf of the Palestinian People we promulgate
 the following Law:"

*Chapter Three *
*The right to vote*​*Article 6* Elections shall be conducted in a free, direct, confidential and individual manner. No vote by proxy shall be allowed.

*Article 7* The right to vote shall be practiced according to provisions of this law, for who shall fulfill the following conditions: -
1. A Palestinian, who shall attain eighteen years on polling day.
2. Resident at the electoral district for a period not less than six months from the date of elections.
3. His/her name is listed on the final voters’ list of the electoral district where he/she shall vote
4. He/she shall not be legally incompetent.
​


Hollie said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Palestinian Reconciliation, Netanyahu's Rejectionism, and American Drift | Huffington Post
> ...


*(COMMENT)*

I have two thought here.

All the outside observers should keep their fingers out of this, to include the Israelis -- especially the Israels.
All the external observers should make it very clear, that the upcoming elections are a Palestinian Domestic Issue.  And as such, the Article 2(7) of the UN Charter, stipulates that "nothing contained in the present Charter shall authorize the United Nations to intervene in matters which are essentially within the domestic jurisdiction of any state."​If the Palestinians find some way to excluded HAMAS, it should not happen because the US, the EU and Israel consider HAMAS to be a state sponsor of terrorism.  It should happen because it is really the will of the population.  If the Arab Palestinians vote for HAMAS, we will know that they are still a people that approve of HAMAS activities --- even in the light of the *International legal instruments *and their application to HAMAS and the associate Jihadis, Terrorist, Insurgents, Resistance, rebels and other asymmetric criminals they rely upon.

But in light of the topic of this particular thread, does anyone really think the Palestinians really perform the functions normally associated with government in Gaza?

Most Respectfully,
R​


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## SAYIT (Oct 9, 2016)

RoccoR said:


> ...If the Palestinians find some way to exclude HAMAS, it should not happen because the US, the EU and Israel consider HAMAS to be a state sponsor of terrorism. It should happen because it is really the will of the population... But in light of the topic of this particular thread, does anyone really think the Palestinians really perform the functions normally associated with government in Gaza?



You really believe voting day in Gazastan would (or will) be a fair and honest reflection of the people's will?


----------



## P F Tinmore (Oct 9, 2016)

RoccoR said:


> Hollie,  et al,
> 
> Yes, this gets more interesting with time.
> 
> ...


All the outside observers should keep their fingers out of this, to include the Israelis -- especially the Israels.
All the external observers should make it very clear, that the upcoming elections are a Palestinian Domestic Issue. And as such, the Article 2(7) of the UN Charter, stipulates that "nothing contained in the present Charter shall authorize the United Nations to intervene in matters which are essentially within the domestic jurisdiction of any state."​
I agree 100%. Palestine had the most democratic government in the ME. It was the model government in the ME. It was judged free and fair by all international observers.

It took the US 3 months to take it down.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Oct 9, 2016)

SAYIT said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > ...If the Palestinians find some way to exclude HAMAS, it should not happen because the US, the EU and Israel consider HAMAS to be a state sponsor of terrorism. It should happen because it is really the will of the population... But in light of the topic of this particular thread, does anyone really think the Palestinians really perform the functions normally associated with government in Gaza?
> ...


Probably no less so than the farce we are having in the US as we speak.


----------



## Hollie (Oct 9, 2016)

SAYIT said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Palestinian Reconciliation, Netanyahu's Rejectionism, and American Drift | Huffington Post
> ...


What I found interesting was PF Tinmore's posting of an opinion piece from 2014 that included such terms as "Palestinian Reconcilliation". 

Here we are, almost three years past that article and the now, three separate and distinct "Palestines" (Gaza, the West Bank and East Jerusalem), are waging a war of words (can gunfire be far behind?), and war for control, ultimately, of the UN welfare fraud dollars. 

Fatah is obviously in a panic over recent polls that show elections in the various Pal'istans could lead to an election victory for the Hamas terrorists. For all the flaming we read in these threads (from a few identifiable Islamic terrorist Pom Pom flailers), about how the _Pal'istanians want justice_™, well... no, they apparently want the same things that moslems across the Islamist Middle East want.


*Islamists beat liberals in Morocco elections*

Islamists beat liberals in Morocco elections


----------



## P F Tinmore (Oct 9, 2016)

RoccoR said:


> Hollie,  et al,
> 
> Yes, this gets more interesting with time.
> 
> ...


Your link does not mention Hamas.


----------



## Hollie (Oct 9, 2016)

P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > Hollie,  et al,
> ...


_I blame the Great Satan for all my self-created disasters, pratfalls and ineptitudes because I'm a helpless child who needs attention and looking after... where's my welfare check?_®


----------



## Hollie (Oct 9, 2016)

RoccoR said:


> Hollie,  et al,
> 
> Yes, this gets more interesting with time.
> 
> ...



"But in light of the topic of this particular thread, does anyone really think the Palestinians really perform the functions normally associated with government in Gaza?"

Isn't it the role of any responsible government to train, equip and then unleash squads of heavily armed religious zealots upon the folks who voted for them?

I'm lamenting our lack, here in the _Great Satan_™ of heavily armed and competing goon squads of Lutherans and Calvinists (in ski masks), roaming the streets in Toyota pickups with machine guns mounted in the back.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Oct 9, 2016)

Hollie said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > RoccoR said:
> ...


----------



## Hollie (Oct 9, 2016)




----------



## P F Tinmore (Oct 9, 2016)

Hollie said:


>


This videomap shows the events in 2007, in which the Palestinian organization Hamas took control over the Gaza Strip.​
Do you mean the elected government in Gaza took control of Gaza?

One thing about propaganda is that it does not have to make any sense for the dupes to believe it.


----------



## Hollie (Oct 9, 2016)

P F Tinmore said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> >
> ...


Your hurt feelings are not my issue to address.

This thread addresses the questions surrounding the (in)ability of Islamists, competing versions of Islamic terrorist franchises and Islamists with a dedicated welfare fraud: the various versions of "Pal'istanians" and their exclusive use and abuse relative to their ability to govern.

Could it be that an Islamic terrorist franchise with a singular goal of destroying Israel is probably not the best choice to manage the affairs of government?

Israel is successful and Arabs-Moslems are not. Why are places and societies such as Hong Kong, people in South Korea, Vietnam, etc., (people and places who endured hardships), successful when arabs-moslems are not? Could it be that an ancient theocratic code and a more modern re-writing condensed into a Charter that promotes perpetual war against the Jews is not the best model for a responsible government?


----------



## P F Tinmore (Oct 9, 2016)

Hollie said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Hollie said:
> ...


You don't make any more sense than Israeli propaganda.


----------



## Hollie (Oct 9, 2016)

P F Tinmore said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



It's typical that you spam the thread, absent any ability to address the salient points.


----------



## RoccoR (Oct 9, 2016)

SAYIT, P F Tinmore, et al,

Yes, these are very good points to be illuminated.



SAYIT said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > ...If the Palestinians find some way to exclude HAMAS, it should not happen because the US, the EU and Israel consider HAMAS to be a state sponsor of terrorism. It should happen because it is really the will of the population... But in light of the topic of this particular thread, does anyone really think the Palestinians really perform the functions normally associated with government in Gaza?
> ...


*(COMMENT)*

Whether it is a fair reflection of the will of the Gazian People --- is NOT really the issue ∑or the issue. 

*IF* the Gazian people vote in an open and fair election, then, as I expressed to our friend Hollie in *Posting #288*, it would demonstrate that the 2006 election was NOT a fluke; and that the Gazian People really do prefer to have the intent to provide material, economic and political support to HAMAS _(including associate and affiliated Jihadists)_, a designated terrorist group.  *THEN* at some point, the question will be asked if the Poeple of Gaza bare any responsibility for the pattern of criminal activity attributed to "Islamic Resistance Movement."  This has an impact on the "reasonable man perspective" concerning the civil claims, war reparations, reimbursement petitions, compensatory payments, and the denial and dismissal of claims by Palestinian Decedents, associated with the past pattern of criminal behaviors by the Arab Palestinians.  Practically and Politically, the reasonable man does not give value to the people involved in criminal behaviors.



P F Tinmore said:


> I agree 100%. Palestine had the most democratic government in the ME. It was the model government in the ME. It was judged free and fair by all international observers.​
> It took the US 3 months to take it down.


*(COMMENT)*

America is blamed for damn near every conceivable pain, ailment, ill and wrong ever experienced by the Arab Palestinians.  The quasi-attempt to bring some reasonable assemblance of a rational thought to the outcome of the 2006 Election outcome was to render some kind of help to the Arab Palestinians of Gaza.  The US is not suppose to provide and assistance to Terrorists, even if they are a legitimately elected government.   Of course, *IF* the Arab People of Gaza vote for and demonstrate the continued support for the Islamic Resistance Movement of Jihadist and Terrorists, *THEN* who can blame the US (and other nations) for countering Criminal acts intended or calculated to provoke a state of terror in the general public, a group of persons or particular persons for political purposes are in any circumstance unjustifiable, whatever the considerations of a political, philosophical, ideological, racial, ethnic, religious or any other nature that may be invoked to justify them.



P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


*(COMMENT)*

The link was the generic laundry list of conventions and international laws against those actions that have been taken by the Arab Palestinians, including the Islamic Resistance Movement.



P F Tinmore said:


> American Sabotage of Palestinian Democracy


*(COMMENT)*

Without regard to the actual election itself, democracy does not start with an election, or end with an election.  *If *the Arab Palestinians hold an election, but never execute the outcome of that election, and are unable to hold a legally mandated follow-on election ---- *THEN*, it is *not* a democracy. 

Now, *IF* the Arab Palestinians want to claim that the US exerted such influece that the Arab Palestinians were unable to organize themselves to follow the commitment in the Basic Law --- *THEN*:  The answer to the question of the threat:  Can-palestinians-govern-Palestine? --- becomes simple.  NO!  Whether the Arab Palestinians wnat to blame that on the US (or not) is an entirely different question.  The answer is no because the Arab Palestinians did not (and have not) been able to demonstrate that they have the knowledge, skills and abilities to organize themselves and follow the Basic Law. No matter what excuse the Arab Palestinian may present --- in the end, that simple truth expresses it all.

Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## P F Tinmore (Oct 9, 2016)

RoccoR said:


> SAYIT, P F Tinmore, et al,
> 
> Yes, these are very good points to be illuminated.
> 
> ...


There you go again trying to mislead the people.

You imply that the people in Gaza elected Hamas to be the government in Gaza. That is false. Hamas won the nationwide elections in all of Palestine. (The West Bank and Gaza.) *They were the majority party in the Palestinian Authority.*

You imply that the Palestinians were trying to pass the blame onto the US. However, my report was from a journalist in Britain. There are other similar reports from other countries. And these reports match the facts on the ground so you cannot refute them.

Most of your post was just your usual slime against the Palestinians.


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## SAYIT (Oct 9, 2016)

P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > ...The answer is no because the Arab Palestinians did not (and have not) been able to demonstrate that they have the knowledge, skills and abilities to organize themselves and follow the Basic Law. No matter what excuse the Arab Palestinian may present --- in the end, that simple truth expresses it all...
> ...



While the VF article has many elements of a hit piece on the US - journalists in Europe are big on that - I'll not argue its veracity or its conclusions. Instead I will note that the article illuminates the Quartet's (the US, the EU, Russia & the UN) reaction to the election of a known terrorist organization - one whose own charter specifically rejects peaceful coexistence with Israel - in the Territories and the impact of their election on the prospects for Mideast peace.

The article makes clear Iranian influence on the Muslim Bro-hood affiliated Hamas (for which Iran pays handsomely) and the Quartet's (and Fatah's) realization that what was left of the progress and hope initiated at Oslo would be wiped out.

In effect, the US was desperate to salvage what remained of Oslo as the basis of new peace talks.

What a horrible agenda!

The actions of both Hamas and Fatah in the subsequent violence provided further proof that neither is capable of organizing the rule-of-law gov't or society which the Pals so desperately need if they are to establish a state and self-rule. Simply declaring a Palestinian State is not sufficient.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Oct 9, 2016)

SAYIT said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > RoccoR said:
> ...


The US only believes in democracy when the people they like get elected.


----------



## RoccoR (Oct 9, 2016)

P F Tinmore, et al,

You are the one trying to mislead the reader.

Yes everyone knows that the 2006 elections were national elections.  And everyone understands:

The result was a victory for Hamas, who won with 74 seats of the 132 seats, whilst the ruling Fatah won just 45. In terms of votes received, Hamas took 44.45% of the vote, whilst Fatah received 41.43% and of the Electoral Districts, Hamas party candidates received 41.73% and Fatah party candidates received 36.96%. The parliament was inaugurated on 18 February 2006.​This is so well known that it's *"Wikipedia"* common.

I give readers and discussion group member credit for common knowledge and publicly known information. 
*Hamas wins Palestinian election*



P F Tinmore said:


> You imply that the people in Gaza elected Hamas to be the government in Gaza. That is false. Hamas won the nationwide elections in all of Palestine. (The West Bank and Gaza.) *They were the majority party in the Palestinian Authority.*


*(COMMENT)*

Hamas was founded in 1987....  The Palestinian Authority was established as a limited self-government under the Oslo Accord of the West Bank and Gaza.   Hamas condemned the accords, in which the PLO gave Israel its formal recognition. 



P F Tinmore said:


> You imply that the Palestinians were trying to pass the blame onto the US. However, my report was from a journalist in Britain. There are other similar reports from other countries. And these reports match the facts on the ground so you cannot refute them.
> 
> Most of your post was just your usual slime against the Palestinians.


*(COMMENT)*

It is not uncommon for you to flip-flop.  You're going to type here that you didn't complain that the US Security Assistance didn't play a role.  That you did not claim that the US attempted to undermine the outcome and start a conflict between HAMAS and FATAH.  

*PA official to Haniyeh: Change policies or be reduced to mayor of Gaza City.*
The new Hamas cabinet is determined to retain its powers despite Palestinian Authority Chairman Mahmoud Abbas's attempts to undermine it, PA Prime Minister Ismail Haniyeh declared on Saturday. ​
Most Respectfully,
R

​


----------



## P F Tinmore (Oct 9, 2016)

RoccoR said:


> P F Tinmore, et al,
> 
> You are the one trying to mislead the reader.
> 
> ...


The Palestinian Authority was established as a limited self-government under the Oslo Accord of the West Bank and Gaza. Hamas condemned the accords, in which the PLO gave Israel its formal recognition.​
Indeed, Hamas was ahead of the curve. Edward Said was against it also as were many knowledgeable people.

Now that the truth about Oslo is getting out, it is universally hated.

LRB · Edward Said · The Morning After


----------



## Hollie (Oct 9, 2016)

P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore, et al,
> ...



Oh, my. Another conspiracy theory.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Oct 10, 2016)

SAYIT said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > RoccoR said:
> ...


Hamas are not terrorists in Palestine where they were elected. That terrorist thing is merely third grade, political name calling.

The peace talks are a farce. They are the epitome of Einstein's version of insanity. Doing the same thing over and over and over again and expecting different results. The talks are designed to fail. Things like rights, justice, or international law will never cross the lips of those phonies in the peace process.


----------



## Hollie (Oct 10, 2016)

P F Tinmore said:


> SAYIT said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



I suspect most people understand that an Islamic terrorist franchise is not considered as such by practitioners of the same ideology, cult. However, actions speak with the utmost clarity and denial of the goals of Hamas is certainly third grade behavior when their Charter clearly states their intended aim and their actions support their Charter. 

And yes, _Peace Partners™_ and _Roadmaps to Nowhere™_ certainly are a farce when Islamic terrorist franchises such as Hamas are involved in a "peace process" while still adherent to the goals of their fascist politico-religious cult.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Oct 10, 2016)

Hollie said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > SAYIT said:
> ...


Hamas will protect the Palestinian's rights while Abbas will give away the store. That is why Hamas does not have a seat at the table.


----------



## Hollie (Oct 10, 2016)

P F Tinmore said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...


Lovely. Hamas commits acts of terrorism directed at israel and the Arabs-Moslems who put Hamas into power die in the Israeli retaliation. 

Flail your Pom Poms.


----------



## RoccoR (Oct 10, 2016)

P F Tinmore, et al,

I don't think anyone was hiding the truth about the Oslo Accords.  It is not that the "truth about Oslo is getting out," it is about that how the situation has evolved --- and the newer wants and needs that have come about in the last 20 years.



P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > The Palestinian Authority was established as a limited self-government under the Oslo Accord of the West Bank and Gaza.   Hamas condemned the accords, in which the PLO gave Israel its formal recognition.
> ...


*(COMMENT)*

Recognition of Israel (_*as a Sovereign Nation and Jewish State*_) was a key component then --- and --- is a key component now.  It who hated the Oslo Accords more (or less) really doesn't make a bit of difference.   And *IF* HAMAS_ (the Islamic Resistance Movement)_ was to survive, *THEN*:  Peace and Progress could not.  There is no need for a Resistance Movement" of any kind if there is peace.

Over that last 20 years,  when HAMAS was formalizing its objective, the approach to success  deepened and broadened as it expanded its leverage and control over Palestinian society improved.

No strategy and no treaty, accord or arrangement is prefect; least of all the Oslo Accords.  But it did threaten those that wanted to climb the ladder of power which brought with it them the twin seductions of riches and influence.  Fatah was then and appears now to be corrupt, incompetent and—at best—ambivalent about its renunciation of terrorism. Nevertheless, it is important to international community that success have a secular and nationalist component (Two-State) represented in the Palestinian Peace model.  This was not likely in the HAMAS model; then or now.  

The HAMAS model of Palestine was unreasonable and unacceptable.  The Fatah Model, while not prefect, was much better than that offered by HAMAS. 

You can criticize the Oslo Accords all you want, but under the Oslo Accords Israel survives as a sovereign nation and a Jewish State.  In the HAMAS model it does not.  Not then and not now.

Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## RoccoR (Oct 10, 2016)

P F Tinmore,  et al,

HAMAS has a whole host of leadership bodies that perform various functions and tasks; including: political, military, and social functions.  Whether you call HAMAS a Terrorist Organization or an Armed Resistance, the outcome is exactly the same.  It is ridiculous to attempt to argue that the tacts employed by HAMAS since 1988 (nearly three decades) has not committed an offenses within the meaning of unlawfully and intentionally targeting of places, lethal device in, into or against a place of public use, government facility, a public transportation systems or an infrastructure facilities: 

a) With the intent to cause death or serious bodily injury; or 

b) With the intent to cause extensive destruction of such a place, facility or system, where such destruction results in or is likely to result in major economic loss. 

This is true in Article 68 of the GCIV as well as Article 2 of the International Convention on the Suppression of Terrorist Bombing.  [http://treaties.un.org/doc/db/Terrorism/english-18-9.pdf] ​
HAMAS are self-proclaimed Jihadist and extremists, which includes members of Palestinian Islamic Jihad and affiliated groups, having intended or calculated to provoke a state of terror in the general public or in a group of persons or particular persons, and in particular, the Arab-Israeli Conflict to achieve what could not be achieved though peaceful means.

Your attempt (or the general Palestinian attempt) to down play, devalue and marginalize the many attacks against the Jewish People is simply another example of how the Hostile Arab Palestinians (HoAP) attempts to devalue the Jewish People (subordinate) the Jewish People in respect to the HoAP.



P F Tinmore said:


> Hamas are not terrorists in Palestine where they were elected. That terrorist thing is merely third grade, political name calling.
> 
> The peace talks are a farce. They are the epitome of Einstein's version of insanity. Doing the same thing over and over and over again and expecting different results. The talks are designed to fail. Things like rights, justice, or international law will never cross the lips of those phonies in the peace process.


*(COMMENT)*

The concept that "peace talks are a farce" is merely a variation on the HAMAS Theme and Mantra that:

•  Initiatives, and so-called peaceful solutions and international conferences, are in contradiction to the principles of the Islamic Resistance Movement.

•  There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors. ​
While your application of the Einstein Quote is correct, your tagging is wrong.  The Arab Palestinian has been attempting to resolve the disputes through terrorism ever since the Arab Higher Committee communicated the threat in 1948.  

Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.; but it sounds very much like the HAMAS Theme and Mantra.​
If the Talks succeed, then the need need for a terrorist based "Resistance Movement" like HAMAS fades away.

Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## RoccoR (Oct 10, 2016)

P F Tinmore,  et al,

The "Protection of Rights" means very little if the people make no improvement in the standard of living, cultural development or future is mired in conflict.



P F Tinmore said:


> Hamas will protect the Palestinian's rights while Abbas will give away the store. That is why Hamas does not have a seat at the table.


*(COMMENT)*

You don't fix a seat at the dining table if there is a guest has announced they have no intention to eat.  So why would you fix a place at the Peace Talks Table if HAMAS has announced that Jihad is the only solution?

Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## P F Tinmore (Oct 10, 2016)

RoccoR said:


> P F Tinmore, et al,
> 
> I don't think anyone was hiding the truth about the Oslo Accords.  It is not that the "truth about Oslo is getting out," it is about that how the situation has evolved --- and the newer wants and needs that have come about in the last 20 years.
> 
> ...


The HAMAS model of Palestine was unreasonable and unacceptable. The Fatah Model, while not prefect, was much better than that offered by HAMAS.

Indeed, Israel prefers the Palestinians who will give away the store.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Oct 10, 2016)

RoccoR said:


> P F Tinmore, et al,
> 
> I don't think anyone was hiding the truth about the Oslo Accords.  It is not that the "truth about Oslo is getting out," it is about that how the situation has evolved --- and the newer wants and needs that have come about in the last 20 years.
> 
> ...


The HAMAS model of Palestine was unreasonable and unacceptable. The Fatah Model, while not prefect, was much better than that offered by HAMAS.

Indeed, Israel prefers the Palestinians who will give away the store.




RoccoR said:


> P F Tinmore,  et al,
> 
> HAMAS has a whole host of leadership bodies that perform various functions and tasks; including: political, military, and social functions.  Whether you call HAMAS a Terrorist Organization or an Armed Resistance, the outcome is exactly the same.  It is ridiculous to attempt to argue that the tacts employed by HAMAS since 1988 (nearly three decades) has not committed an offenses within the meaning of unlawfully and intentionally targeting of places, lethal device in, into or against a place of public use, government facility, a public transportation systems or an infrastructure facilities:
> a) With the intent to cause death or serious bodily injury; or
> ...


If the Talks succeed, then the need need for a terrorist based "Resistance Movement" like HAMAS fades away.​
Most intelligent thing you have said in a long time. Israelis say that you cannot make peace with Hamas. However, as you imply, if there was peace Hamas would have no reason to be. It would probably just revert back to being a charitable organization.


----------



## RoccoR (Oct 10, 2016)

P F Tinmore, et al,

One thing you have to keep in mind.



P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > The HAMAS model of Palestine was unreasonable and unacceptable. The Fatah Model, while not prefect, was much better than that offered by HAMAS.
> ...


*(COMMENT)*

The threat presented by the Arab Higher Committee in 1948, which expressed the oath of a continued struggle is more than 30 years old; and is carried on today in the Covenant of HAMAS.  If the Arab Palestinians follow that path, pretty soon there will be nothing left for the Palestinian.  

Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## P F Tinmore (Oct 10, 2016)

RoccoR said:


> P F Tinmore, et al,
> 
> One thing you have to keep in mind.
> 
> ...


Indeed, Israel will continue its colonial project until there is nothing left of Palestine.


----------



## RoccoR (Oct 10, 2016)

P F Tinmore, et al,

Well --- Not exactly.



P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > If the Arab Palestinians follow that path, pretty soon there will be nothing left for the Palestinian.
> ...


*(COMMENT)*

Not that it will matter in a few years.

Israel is no interested in acquiring territory which has:

Unprofitable production potential.
Containing a population that has no means of support.
A People that are patriotically unstable and politically dangerous. 
That is not to mention the potential in escalating the conflict.


Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## Hollie (Oct 10, 2016)

P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore, et al,
> ...


Nothing left of your imagined Pal'istan might describe the situation in the competing territories of Gaza and the West Bank. 

Let's first be reminded that describing Hamas as a "resistance" group is false and misleading. The Hamas Charter speaks explicitly to offensive gee-had as the means to destroy israel. The language throughout that document is drenched in terms that reiterate Islamic doctrine such as all of the area within Israel described as an islamic _waqf_. 

It's pointless and time wasting to suggest that the history of Arab-Moslem attacks against Israel are defensive or "resisting" anything. The gee-had being waged against Israel by Hamas is entirely consistent with their Charter and in concert with islamist ideology.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Oct 10, 2016)

Hollie said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > RoccoR said:
> ...


It's pointless and time wasting to suggest that the history of Arab-Moslem, blah, blah, blah.​
What about the Christians?

Palestinian Christian addresses 70,000 supporters in Gaza.







But the recent 42nd anniversary rally of the PFLP in Gaza, which attracted some 70,000 people, raised the profile of the Palestinian revolutionary left and also of the role of women: one young woman of the PFLP, called Shireen Said, stood on stage, giving a salute in military fatigues, and co-chaired the rally alongside her male comrade.






Leila Khaled and Shireen Said Interviewed by Sukant Chandan, "Palestinian Revolutionaries on International Women's Day"


----------



## Hollie (Oct 10, 2016)

P F Tinmore said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...


"Blah, blah, blah". A compelling response. 

The problem is, your cut and paste photo is one you have cut and pasted before. 

Nothing in your cutting and pasting addrsses my comments.


----------



## Shusha (Oct 10, 2016)

P F Tinmore said:


> What about the Christians?
> 
> Palestinian Christian addresses 70,000 supporters in Gaza.
> 
> ...



From the linked article:

_My story with comrade Leila started in kindergarten when we learned the national songs about the Intifada, martyrs and our heroes like Leila, Ghassan Kanfani and Wadi Haddad.  _

Heroes who are plane hijackers.  

National songs like this one:

_"I'm coming towards you, my enemy,
We're going down from every house with cleavers and knives,
With grenades we announced a popular war.
I swear, you won't escape, my enemy,  
from the revolution and the people.
How will you escape the ring of fire,
while the crowds are blocking the way?"_
[Facebook, "Fatah - The Main Page," Nov. 22, 2014]


It will be generations before this can be reversed.


----------



## Phoenall (Oct 12, 2016)

P F Tinmore said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > Hollie said:
> ...









The ones that Israel has by international treaty and are recognised by the rest of the world.

 What borders have the arab muslims claimed as theirs and where is the map showing these borders ?


----------



## Phoenall (Oct 12, 2016)

P F Tinmore said:


> Palestinian Reconciliation, Netanyahu's Rejectionism, and American Drift | Huffington Post









 Is that the best you have one islamonazi pro terrorist's personal views in his blog.

 Where is the evidence to support his false racist claims then ?


----------



## Phoenall (Oct 12, 2016)

P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > Hollie,  et al,
> ...








 LIAR as it was only judged  "free and fair" by those who are paid by islamonazi governments, the rest of the world condemned them as typical islamonazi dictatorship tactics


----------



## Phoenall (Oct 12, 2016)

P F Tinmore said:


> SAYIT said:
> 
> 
> > RoccoR said:
> ...










 And you would use it as an wxcuse to peddle islamonazi propaganda against the Jews, Israel and the US


----------



## Phoenall (Oct 12, 2016)

P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > Hollie,  et al,
> ...









 Is that like your links you claim prove that palestine was a nation in 1923, that dont even mention palestine


----------



## Phoenall (Oct 12, 2016)

P F Tinmore said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...









 And again all you have is one persons word for what happened, and it is touted of white supremacist/nazi/islamofascist hate sites.    AND NOWHERE ELSE


----------



## Phoenall (Oct 12, 2016)

P F Tinmore said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> >
> ...









 No the unelected terrorists of hamas took over as dictators and started to mass murder fatah members/supporters. Even those who had been elected in gaza by residents with the right to vote

That is why you constantly believe the islamonazi propaganda then, because you are a dupe.................


----------



## Phoenall (Oct 12, 2016)

P F Tinmore said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...









 Ever thought that it is your lack of any meaningful intelligence that is to blame for your inability to make sense out of reality, and you prefer to see things as they are in your fantasy world. The arab muslims were given the chance to make a name for themselves and only managed to be despised, hated and shunned by the majority of the worlds population. They had no idea of how to set up a government and so exercised their free determination to allow foreign influence to rule for them


----------



## Phoenall (Oct 12, 2016)

P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > SAYIT, P F Tinmore, et al,
> ...










 And yet strangely the majority of votes were for fatah weren't they, with 60% being for fatah in the count. All hamas won was the most seats/areas because fatah put too many candidates in the different areas they split the vote and lost the election.
But you will never admit that the arab muslims are ever to blame will you, even when the evidence is overwhelming


----------



## Phoenall (Oct 12, 2016)

P F Tinmore said:


> SAYIT said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...








BULLSHIT, and you have no evidence to support your claim


----------



## Phoenall (Oct 12, 2016)

P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore, et al,
> ...








A member of the palestinian council is the best you have, proving once more you cant support your claims


----------



## P F Tinmore (Oct 12, 2016)

Phoenall said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > SAYIT said:
> ...


WOW, you don't know much about US history.


----------



## Phoenall (Oct 13, 2016)

P F Tinmore said:


> Phoenall said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...









 When you realise that this board has nothing to do with US history you will see why you are laughed at.

 But nice DUCK and DEFLECTION rather that answer comment


----------



## P F Tinmore (Oct 13, 2016)

Phoenall said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > SAYIT said:
> ...


Overthrowing other people’s governments: The Master List – William Blum


----------



## RoccoR (Oct 13, 2016)

P F Tinmore,  et al,

I don't quite understand this answer.  What does US Influence, elsewhere in the world, have to do with the topic _(Can Palestinians Govern Palestine?)_?



P F Tinmore said:


> Phoenall said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...


*(COMMENT)*

Actually, it does not matter if the US is successful, or the Russians, Saudi's, The Quartet, or The EU.  All that matters is what the Arab Palestinians do _(or not do)_ relative to the Israeli response _(or ignore)_.

The scope and magnitude of the violence directed against the Israelis depends on what the Palestinians do to bring Law to the Lawless of Palestine _*(West Bank + Gaza Strip)*_.  But the Arab Palestinians have no equivalent to a Wyatt Earp, Wild Bill, or Bat Masterson ---            


Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## Phoenall (Oct 13, 2016)

P F Tinmore said:


> Phoenall said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...










 AND HOW IS THIS EVIDENCE OF ANYTHING AS IT IS A WORK OF FICTION NOT FACT, LIKE ALL OF YOUR OTHER  LINKS YOU PRODUCE


----------



## P F Tinmore (Oct 13, 2016)

RoccoR said:


> P F Tinmore,  et al,
> 
> I don't quite understand this answer.  What does US Influence, elsewhere in the world, have to do with the topic _(Can Palestinians Govern Palestine?)_?
> 
> ...


All that matters is what the Arab Palestinians do _(or not do)_ relative to the Israeli response​
The only thing Israel "responds" to is any opposition to it colonialism.


----------



## RoccoR (Oct 13, 2016)

P F Tinmore,  et al,

Who are you trying to kid? 



P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > All that matters is what the Arab Palestinians do _(or not do)_ relative to the Israeli response
> ...


*(COMMENT)*

This colonialism claim _*(does not meet the International Criteria under the Committee of 24)*_ is merely used by the Hostile Arab Palestinians to fool people into believing there is a valid justification for the incited violence.

The Special Committee on the Situation with regard to the Implementation of the Declaration on the Granting of Independence of Colonial Countries and Peoples _*(also known as the Special Committee on decolonization or C-24)*_ the United Nations entity exclusively devoted to the issue of decolonization, was established in 1961 by the General Assembly with the purpose of monitoring the implementation of the Declaration _(General Assembly Resolution 1514 (XV) of 14 December 1960)_.  Israel is not on the table of ADMINISTERING POWERs over territories under General Assembly Resolution 1514 (XV).

This is merely more circumstantial evidence that the Hostile Arab Palestinian is desperately searching for excuses to further the conflict --- as opposed to --- developing strategies for setting the conditions for peace.

Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## Hollie (Oct 13, 2016)

P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore,  et al,
> ...


That's nonsense. What Israel responds to is Islamic terrorists attempting to fulfill the writ of their cult.


The Avalon Project : Hamas Covenant 1988

"Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it" (The Martyr, Imam Hassan al-Banna, of blessed memory)."


----------



## montelatici (Oct 13, 2016)

RoccoR said:


> P F Tinmore,  et al,
> 
> Who are you trying to kid?
> 
> ...



How can Israel possibly be anything other than a colonial enterprise?  People from one place going to another place, evicting the native people and establishing a society for themselves is colonialism.  No different than what Cecil Rhodes and his cronies did.

That the Zionists publicly declared their intention to colonize Palestine and beyond as early as 1899 and reiterated it in 1926 debunks your nonsense.

*"Successful Jewish Colonization Will Extend Beyond Palestine Frontier, Weizmann Tells Actions Committ*
July 25, 1926


Successful Jewish Colonization Will Extend Beyond Palestine Frontier, Weizmann Tells Actions Committ


----------



## Hollie (Oct 13, 2016)

montelatici said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore,  et al,
> ...




*The Arabs in Palestine | Jewish Virtual Library*
*A Population Boom *

As Hussein foresaw, the regeneration of Palestine, and the growth of its population, came only after Jews returned in massive numbers. The Jewish population increased by 470,000 between World War I and World War II while the non-Jewish population rose by 588,000. In fact, the permanent Arab population increased 120 percent between 1922 and 1947. 

This rapid growth was a result of several factors. One was immigration from neighboring states — constituting 37 percent of the total immigration to pre-state Israel — by Arabs who wanted to take advantage of the higher standard of living the Jews had made possible. The Arab population also grew because of the improved living conditions created by the Jews as they drained malarial swamps and brought improved sanitation and health care to the region. Thus, for example, the Muslim infant mortality rate fell from 201 per thousand in 1925 to 94 per thousand in 1945 and life expectancy rose from 37 years in 1926 to 49 in 1943. 

The Arab population increased the most in cities with large Jewish populations that had created new economic opportunities. From 19221947, the non-Jewish population increased 290 percent in Haifa, 131 percent in Jerusalem and 158 percent in Jaffa. The growth in Arab towns was more modest: 42 percent in Nablus, 78 percent in Jenin and 37 percent in Bethlehem.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Oct 13, 2016)

RoccoR said:


> P F Tinmore,  et al,
> 
> Who are you trying to kid?
> 
> ...


Load of crap, Rocco.

Britain said it was colonialism. The Zionists said it was colonialism. History says it is colonialism. The facts on the ground show colonialism. The Palestinians and others call it colonialism.

What the UN says is based on politics not reality.


----------



## Hollie (Oct 13, 2016)

P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore,  et al,
> ...



.... and the Arab-Moslem colonists still can't govern your mythical Pal'istan.


----------



## RoccoR (Oct 13, 2016)

P F Tinmore,  et al,

Again, you are relying on something that was talked about over 90 years ago.  You are not talking about the confrontation triggered by Arab League Aggression (not once --- not twice but) three times.



montelatici said:


> That the Zionists publicly declared their intention to colonize Palestine and beyond as early as 1899 and reiterated it in 1926 debunks your nonsense.
> 
> *"Successful Jewish Colonization Will Extend Beyond Palestine Frontier, Weizmann Tells Actions Committ*
> July 25, 1926
> ...


*(COMMENT)*

Again, this is just another attempt to convince observers that the conflict did not start by Arab League forces breaking the UN Charter and crossing their individual frontiers to for the purpose of denying the Jewish right to self-determination as recommended by the UN.  

Over vast periods of time, different political personalities will propose or envision something that is never politically adopted.  

Here we are talking about the threat of conflict by the Arabs in February 1948 and executed in aggressive fashion in May 1948.  

The Arab League understood that they were not to cross their threshold 1948, but they did it anyway.  They understood that they were not to incite or intimidate the Israelis in 1967, but did it anyway.  They understood that they were not to make a sneak attack against Israel in 1973 --- and still tried.  In each case they violated Article 2 of the Charter.  and in each case they suffered the consequences.  And in each case, they want to be reimbursed for the their crimes.

Sorry about that.  Everyone else in the world has to pay the penalty for the intentional damage they cause.  It is just like breaking your neighbors window.  You break it, you pay for it.

In 1926, the Palestine Frontier was considered the territory to which the Mandate applied.  In the 90 years since that statement was made, when did Israel extend beyond the territorial boundary to which the former Mandate applied?

Again, just like the improper application of A/RES/1514(XV), you claim that the Weizmann political speech citation presents some tangible evidence of a wrong doing.  It is my opinion that Israeli has not extended "Beyond Palestine Frontier."  

*(HELP)*

I would appreciate you pointing out what 1926 era frontier of Palestine that Israel crossed beyond since its application of self-determination 1948 and the Declaration of Independence.

Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## RoccoR (Oct 13, 2016)

P F Tinmore,  et al,

I'm not sure you know exactly what you are saying.



P F Tinmore said:


> Load of crap, Rocco.
> 
> Britain said it was colonialism. The Zionists said it was colonialism. History says it is colonialism. The facts on the ground show colonialism. The Palestinians and others call it colonialism.
> 
> What the UN says is based on politics not reality.


*(COMMENT)*

When the British said that the Israeli action was colonialism, who did the claim was the "Colonial Power?"


---A group of Jewish people _(from all over Europe and Russia)_ leave the one territory and under  Articles of the Mandate for Palestine, immigrate to a territory to which the the Allied Powers had full Title and Rights _(under Article 16 of the Lausanne Treaty)_ and establish new settlements subject pursuant to the Mandate; what then is the parent nation extending its colonial power?​
You are attempting to make some legal argument beyond the outside the law.  In fact you are trying to use the color of law to establish some valid complaint where there is none. 

And, if you are going to use the excuse that the UN made this or that claim, but it is invalid because it is political, then you had better not use any UN resolution at all; they are all suspect.  And absent UN Resolution 1514 _(a political driven document as you say, subject to administration by Committee of 24)_, what do you cite as anti-colonialist applicable to this venue?  Who says (absent UN criteria) that "colonialism" is wrong?  Or for that matter, in 1926, when you accuse Weizmann of making that statement, was colonialism even wrong then? (What Law)

Again, you are trying to cherry pick concepts that favor your position and dismiss other because they do not favor the Hostile Arab Palestinian.

Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## P F Tinmore (Oct 13, 2016)

RoccoR said:


> P F Tinmore,  et al,
> 
> I'm not sure you know exactly what you are saying.
> 
> ...


*montelatici* summed it up in his post above.

Take anything he said and refute it.

I await your response.


----------



## Shusha (Oct 14, 2016)

montelatici said:


> How can Israel possibly be anything other than a colonial enterprise?


Simple.  Three little words.  Right.  Of.  Return.  Hell, you can knock that down to just one word and say, "RETURN".  A peoples returning from a Diaspora, of their own free will, independently, (as opposed to under direction of a Sovereign Nation) *by definition* are not a colonial enterprise.  

Are you going to argue that forcibly removing a peoples from a place makes them foreigners to that place?  And colonizers and invaders if they return?




> People from one place going to another place, evicting the native people and establishing a society for themselves is colonialism.



No, its not.  The evicted native people can not be colonialists of a place that was theirs to begin with.  

And just go ahead and try to argue that the Jewish people have no links to that land.  You HAVE to argue that because you know damn well that eviction from a place and subsequent return does not make one a colonialist.


----------



## Phoenall (Oct 14, 2016)

P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore,  et al,
> ...









 How do you colonise your own land again, do explain it in detail so we can all understand. You forget that under international laws the land belongs to the Jews who dont have the numbers to defend against all of islam so make certain concessions hoping to get peace in the process.  If the arab muslims attack with illegal weapons then Israel will respond with force, so dont be shocked when the arab muslims are killed protecting their illegal weapons.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Oct 14, 2016)

Shusha said:


> montelatici said:
> 
> 
> > How can Israel possibly be anything other than a colonial enterprise?
> ...


The Jews were not the first people in Palestine, nor were they ever the only people there.

There is no historic precedence for an exclusive Jewish state.


----------



## Phoenall (Oct 14, 2016)

montelatici said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore,  et al,
> ...








 The tinman wants this post refuting so here goes.

 How can the word of one person made before the creation of Israel be indicative of Israeli governmental policy. It is like saying that the Popes declaration that the Jews killed God is indicative of the views of all Christians and as such will be used as the reason for the genocide of the Jews


----------



## Phoenall (Oct 14, 2016)

P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore,  et al,
> ...









 But not colonialism as you mean it, as you have failed to show which nation instigated the colonies and funded them ?  Care to have a go at doing so, and then we can see just where you get your ideas from, which islamonazi hate sites you use as your source of "reality" 

 Yes the UN uses reality and not manipulated factoids to put across the truth, and you dont like seeing your bubbles burst


----------



## Phoenall (Oct 14, 2016)

P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore,  et al,
> ...








He did in the post you answered. What colonialism took place in 1926 that extended beyond the borders of palestine and which LAWS OF THAT TIME DID THEY BREACH.  Then who was the colonial power that was the parent nation ?


----------



## P F Tinmore (Oct 14, 2016)

Phoenall said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > RoccoR said:
> ...


It was a British, Zionist joint effort.

You need to keep up.


----------



## Phoenall (Oct 14, 2016)

P F Tinmore said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > montelatici said:
> ...










 Nor is there any historical precedence of a wholly arab muslim islamonazi dictatorship, yet this is what you are pushing for. You twist the arab muslims words to make it look like 6 million Jews will be given full citizenship and be allowed to live without fear, when the reality is that every single Jew would be murdered by the arab muslims as dictated by the koran and their charters.

The LoN were the legal sovereign owners of all of palestine and as such could get rid of it as they saw fit. So they granted one tiny parcel of land to the Jews as their national home, as in it was their home nation ruled by them and them alone, and the arab muslims being greedy wanted it all. You being a supporter and defender of islamonazi terrorism flail your pom pom's every time a Jewish child is savagely beaten and killed by psychopathic islamonazi scum. 

THE LAND IS JEWISH UNDER INTERNATIONAL LAW AND AS SUCH THE ARAB MUSLIM INVADERS SHOULD BE EVICTED BY AN INTERNATIONAL ARMED TASK FORCE. AND ANY ISLAMONAZI NATION THAT SENDS TROOPS TO OPPOSE THE ACTION TO BE REMOVED FROM THE UN AFTER ARRESTING THEIR DELEGATION. ONCE THE WORLD SHOWS ITS DISPLEASURE AT THE ACTIONS OF THE MUSLIMS THEY MIGHT START LIVING IN PEACE


----------



## Phoenall (Oct 14, 2016)

P F Tinmore said:


> Phoenall said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...









 How about a link from an unbiased source showing this, and then explain how it was mostly eastern European Jews that migrated legally to palestine and fulfilled the request of the LoN to close colonise palestine with the view to claiming independence once able to stand on their own.
 The same treaty granted the arab muslims the same rights to close colonise the lands of trans Jordan, meaning that if the colonisation of Israel is illegal then the coloniisation of trans Jordan is also illegal.


----------



## RoccoR (Oct 14, 2016)

P F Tinmore,  et al,

I'm beginning to think that you are using "colonialism" as an alternative to "imperialism."  _(Very similar, but not quite the same thing.)_

In the case of Colonialism, involving the subjugation of one people over another _(which you assert as the Arab Palestinian)_, neither the British or the Jewish people attempted to bring under control by conquest. 

•  The Jewish People did not have a a sovereignty under which Palestine could be brought under the control.
•  The In the beginning, the Mandatory (the British) was not establishing control under its own control, but rather under the authority of the Allied Powers; eventually to:

√   Set the conditions for the establishment of the Jewish National Home.
√   Development of self-governing.​
While it is very true that the British _(as the appointed Mandatory)_ had full powers of legislation and
of administration, --- limited by the terms of this mandate --- powers and control were limited by the terms of the
Mandate for Palestine.  The Mandatory, not having sovereignty over the territory, required the consent of the Council of the League of Nations before taking action outside the terms of the mandate.

Certainly it could be argued that the British Government exhibited some aspects of Imperial Authority as the selected Mandatory, the selection of the Mandatory was by the authority of the Principal Allied Powers, through the Title and Rights acquired by Peace Treaty.  



P F Tinmore said:


> It was a British, Zionist joint effort.  You need to keep up.


*(COMMENT)*

Colonialism, as in every other case in history, was the extension of sovereignty by a foreign power over a distant territory.  The British as Mandatory, was not extending its sovereignty.  In fact, the Mandate specifically prohibited that, as the surrendered Title and Rights were equally the providence of the entire set of Allied Powers.  Whether you talk about the American colonies, the colony of Hong Kong, the British Indian Ocean Territory, or Gibraltar, the one thing they all had in common was British Sovereignty.  And until 1948, the Jewish, for whatever mysterious power it represented, did not by proxy extend sovereignty in the name of any other.  

Israel, under the recommendation of the General Assembly, within the parameters of UN Charter _[Chapter I, Article 1(2)]_ declared sovereignty and independence; and successfully defended it against Arab League aggression, by breaking their respective frontiers in a manner inconsistent with the UN _[Chapter I Articles 22(3) and 2(4)]_.  Oddly enough, all the immediate adjacent Regional Members of the Arab League were once under Mandates, to include the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan.  

While Israel has become the only Regional State to rank within the TOP 25 on the *Human Development Index (HDI)*, having achieved position #18; nearly twice that of any Arab State; Jordan (the other half of the same territory, ranks 80th.

There is little doubt that in the back of Arab leadership minds, there is the potential for great profits if another mass exodus could be triggered.  The break-up value of Israel in the hands of an Islamic Waqf could be pillaged and plundered with the application of a free Sharia Laws.  

Most Respectfully,
R


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## P F Tinmore (Oct 14, 2016)

RoccoR said:


> P F Tinmore,  et al,
> 
> I'm beginning to think that you are using "colonialism" as an alternative to "imperialism."  _(Very similar, but not quite the same thing.)_
> 
> ...


Colonialism, as in every other case in history, was the extension of sovereignty by a foreign power over a distant territory. The British as Mandatory, was not extending its sovereignty.​
That is true. "Colonialism" is *control* over the local population and resources.

However, "settler colonialism" is the *replacement* of the local population by foreign settlers. This was not particularly the goal of the British but it was for the Zionists. It happened under the British but not as a policy. As a Mandatory power charged with creating an independent state it completely failed. No state was created. No Jewish homeland was created. The British left Palestine in chaos.

After the failed resolution 181, the Zionists actively commenced its settler colonial project. Between then and the time the foreigners declared Israel in Palestine about three hundred thousand Palestinians were removed from their homes. That cleansing of the Palestinians continued through the 1948 war and continues to today. Israel now is regularly called a settler colonial state.


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## Hollie (Oct 14, 2016)

P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore,  et al,
> ...


You seem particularly upset that the usual pattern of Arab-Moslem settler-colonialism was interrupted by the collapse of the Ottoman Empire and the Arabs-Moslems were unable to impose their politico-religious apartheid.


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## Hollie (Oct 14, 2016)

Governance in Gaza'istan - of the islamist terrorist kind.

Hamas Terrorist Electrocuted in Tunnel as Gaza Families Await Power

The Palestinian terrorist group Hamas announced that one of its operatives was electrocuted to death while working on a tunnel in the Gaza Strip on Saturday, Israel Army Radio reported. The news comes as residents of Gaza who seek to rebuild their homes face difficulty in securing the necessaryelectricity and other resources, which are routinely appropriated by Hamas


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## RoccoR (Oct 14, 2016)

P F Tinmore,  et al,

OK, you and I must agree to disagree.  I'll take the United Nationals University definition, and understanding, and you take your Pro-Palestinians definition:



			
				United Nations University said:
			
		

> *Continuing colonialism*
> 
> The wave of decolonization that swept around the world in the latter half of the 20th century was once heralded as one of the great liberating movements in history. Yet, few seem to realize that colonialism is still with us. As of 2012, 16 territories are deemed still to be under colonial rule and are labeled by the United Nations as “non-self-governing territories (NSGTs)” — areas in which the population has not yet attained a full measure of self-government.
> 
> ...


Remember, I said there is not application of the C-24 List and todays Israel.



P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > Colonialism, as in every other case in history, was the extension of sovereignty by a foreign power over a distant territory. The British as Mandatory, was not extending its sovereignty.
> ...


*(COMMENT)*

A few more points we will have to agree to disagree on:
•  The General Assembly Resolution 181 (II) is an adopted set of Recommendations.  It can neither succeed or fail.  It can only be adopted with recommendations either implemented or not, partially, or in full.

•  Zionist activity is not a formal project.  Activities initiated by the Jewish Agency are formal projects and programs.

•  Between the time Resolution 181(II) was adopted and the time the Jewish Agency/Provisional Government declared the sovereignty and independence of the State of Israel a Non-International Conflict (NIAC) between wherein both parties to the conflict where in the same venue, neither a State Actor. 

•  After May 1948 and the Arab League forces crossing the threshold of their borders with the intent to engage Israeli Forces, the conflict between Israel and Arab League Members was an International Armed Conflict (IAC).
*Article 2 A/RES/3314 (XXIX)* 
The First use of armed force by a State in contravention of the Charter shall constitute prima facie evidence of an act of aggression although the Security Council may, in conformity with the Charter, conclude that a determination that an act of aggression has been committed would not be justified in the light of other relevant circumstances, including the fact that the acts concerned or their consequences are not of sufficient gravity.​•  It is not accurate to say that the British "As a Mandatory power charged with creating an independent state it completely failed." 
•  The British as Mandatory, was not tasked to "create" an independent state."  It was mandated to:

√ Set the conditions for the establishment of the Jewish National Home.
√ Development of self-governing institutions.​•  *In March 1946 as the Mandatory*, "His Majesty The King recognises Trans-Jordan as a fully independent State and His Highness The Amir as the sovereign thereof."​I realize that, as far as the establishment of a bully state, the Arab Palestinians think that Palestine (formerly the territory under Mandate) is all about "them."  BUT, it is NOT.  On 15 MAY 1948, there were two-states established in the territory under the Mandate that did not exist in 10 August 1922, when the Mandate was written (Jordan and Israel). 

*(NEW POINT)*

It is not quite accurate to say that "The British left Palestine in chaos."   On 15 May 1948, it was the Arab League that generated the chaos, with powerful Arab interests, both inside and outside Palestine, working hard to defy General Assembly Resolution 181 (II) and are engaged in a deliberate effort to alter by force the settlement envisaged therein; and (contrary to the Charter) use force to secure solution and territory they could not acquire through peaceful means.  Attempting to take by force that which was NOT in their control and NOT subject to a declaration of independence under the right of self-determination.  AND, these Powerful Arab Forces were attempting to deny the right of self-determination to the Jewish People.

Most Respectfully,
R


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## P F Tinmore (Oct 14, 2016)

RoccoR said:


> P F Tinmore,  et al,
> 
> OK, you and I must agree to disagree.  I'll take the United Nationals University definition, and understanding, and you take your Pro-Palestinians definition:
> 
> ...


On 15 May 1948, it was the Arab League that generated the chaos, with powerful Arab interests, both inside and outside Palestine, working hard to defy General Assembly Resolution 181​
Not true. Resolution 181 was rejected and never implemented. There was no resolution 181 to defy.


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## P F Tinmore (Oct 14, 2016)

RoccoR said:


> P F Tinmore,  et al,
> 
> OK, you and I must agree to disagree.  I'll take the United Nationals University definition, and understanding, and you take your Pro-Palestinians definition:
> 
> ...


The First use of armed force by a State in contravention of the Charter shall constitute prima facie evidence of an act of aggression​
The Arab armies entered Palestine to defend the Palestinians. This was not an aggression against Palestine.

How did that contravene the UN Charter?


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## P F Tinmore (Oct 14, 2016)

RoccoR said:


> P F Tinmore,  et al,
> 
> OK, you and I must agree to disagree.  I'll take the United Nationals University definition, and understanding, and you take your Pro-Palestinians definition:
> 
> ...


I'll take the United Nationals University definition, and understanding, and you take your Pro-Palestinians definition:​
What is their definition of settler colonialism?

Link?


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## Hossfly (Oct 14, 2016)

P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore,  et al,
> ...






​


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## Hossfly (Oct 14, 2016)

P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore,  et al,
> ...


----------



## P F Tinmore (Oct 14, 2016)

RoccoR said:


> P F Tinmore,  et al,
> 
> OK, you and I must agree to disagree.  I'll take the United Nationals University definition, and understanding, and you take your Pro-Palestinians definition:
> 
> ...


It is not accurate to say that the British "As a Mandatory power charged with creating an independent state it completely failed."​
Indeed they failed. What were they supposed to do?

To those colonies and territories which as a consequence of the late war have ceased to be under the sovereignty of the States which formerly governed them and *which are inhabited by peoples not yet able to stand by themselves* under the strenuous conditions of the modern world, there should be applied the principle *that the well-being and development of such peoples form a sacred trust *of civilisation and that securities for the performance of this trust should be embodied in this Covenant.

Certain communities formerly belonging to the Turkish Empire have reached a stage of development *where their existence as independent nations can be provisionally recognized subject to the rendering of administrative advice and assistance by a Mandatory until such time as they are able to stand alone.*

Avalon Project - The Covenant of the League of Nations​
Who were these "peoples?" They were defined by article 30 of the Treaty of Lausanne.

SECTION II .
NATIONALITY.
ARTICLE 30.

Turkish subjects habitually resident in territory which in accordance with the provisions of the present Treaty is detached from Turkey will become ipsofacto, in the conditions laid down by the local law, nationals of the State to which such territory is transferred.

Treaty of Lausanne - World War I Document Archive​
In the case of Palestine that would be the Palestinians. They had the right to self determination without external interference, the right to independence and sovereignty, and the right to territorial integrity as affirmed in subsequent UN resolutions.


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## RoccoR (Oct 14, 2016)

P F Tinmore,  et al,

There is no such thing (in formal language) as "settler colonialism."  You have the link.  Look for it yourself.  A settler that sets up a colony is not necessarily under a colonial influence.  They are mutually exclusive.



P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > OK, you and I must agree to disagree.  I'll take the United Nationals University definition, and understanding, and you take your Pro-Palestinians definition:
> ...


*(COMMENT)*

Please find that phase?  Please find that discussion.  There combination of the two words do not change the fact that the UN does not make the same judgement as you.  I cannot give you a link to an informal combination of words.



P F Tinmore said:


> Not true. Resolution 181 was rejected and never implemented. There was no resolution 181 to defy.


*(COMMENT)*

Relative to A/RES/181(II), please re-read the Posting above and Posting 151.  You always want to ignore the matters of record and manipulate the facts (UNPC Documentation).

It is also important to understand and recognize that the Palestinian Declaration of Independence (1988) makes use of A/RES/181 (II), including the UN Acknowledgement of the State of Palestine by the Palestine National Council on 15 November 1988 --- A/RES/43/177; and as late as 4 December 2012 relative to the Status of Palestine in the United Nations A/RES/67/19 also makes reference to the Resolution 181 (II).  That is a lost of recalling for some that you claim does not exist.   

Most Respectfully,
R


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## RoccoR (Oct 14, 2016)

P F Tinmore,  et al,

The Article 30 pertains to Nationality.  It is not in the territory section of the Treaty.  The Title and Rights of the Territory are handled in Article 16 and pass to the Allied Powers, NOT the inhabitance of the formerly Enemy Occupied Territory.



P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > OK, you and I must agree to disagree.  I'll take the United Nationals University definition, and understanding, and you take your Pro-Palestinians definition:
> ...


*(COMMENT)*

The law pertaining to self-determination has nothing to do with the Treaty of Lausanne.  You are grasping at straws here.  The territory was transferred (Title and Rights) to the Allied Powers.  The Mandate was issued by the Council of the League of Nations.  They understood what Article 22 meant and how it applied.

It was the decision of the Allied Powers and the Authority of the Council of the League of Nations that the Mandatory was tasked (not some the Palestinians).  

•  It is not accurate to say that the British "As a Mandatory power charged with creating an independent state it completely failed."

•  The British as Mandatory, was not tasked to "create" an independent state."  It was mandated to:

√ Set the conditions for the establishment of the Jewish National Home.
√ Development of self-governing institutions.​ 
We have discussed many time that you cannot use Section II Article 30 as a basis to void Section I Article 16.  Section I deals with the Territories and Section II deals with the Nationality.

Most Respectfully,
R


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## P F Tinmore (Oct 14, 2016)

RoccoR said:


> P F Tinmore,  et al,
> 
> There is no such thing (in formal language) as "settler colonialism."  You have the link.  Look for it yourself.  A settler that sets up a colony is not necessarily under a colonial influence.  They are mutually exclusive.
> 
> ...


Please find that phase?  Please find that discussion.​
Though often conflated with colonialism more generally, settler colonialism is a distinct imperial formation. Both colonialism and settler colonialism are premised on exogenous domination, but only setter colonialism seeks to replace the original population of the colonized territory with a new society of settlers (usually from the colonial metropole). This new society needs land, and so settler colonialism depends primarily on access to territory. This is achieved by various means, either through treaties with indigenous inhabitants or simply by “taking possession.” Britain, for example, implemented the doctrine of “terra nullius” (“land belonging to no one”) to claim sovereignty over Australia. The entire continent was thereby declared legally uninhabited, despite millennia of Aboriginal occupation.

As this work emphasizes, settler colonialism is premised on occupation and the elimination of the native population, while colonialism is primarily about conquest. In the oft-cited words of one influential scholar, settler colonialism is a structure rather than an event (see Wolfe 1999, cited under General Overview). In this sense, settler colonialism does not really ever “end.”

Settler Colonialism - Anthropology - Oxford Bibliographies


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## Shusha (Oct 14, 2016)

P F Tinmore said:


> The Arab armies entered Palestine to defend the Palestinians. This was not an aggression against Palestine.



The Arab armies entered the territory to provide military support to Arabs and to prevent the formation of the Jewish National Home (eliminate the possibility of Jewish self-determination in the territory).  It was most certainly aggression against both the intent of the Mandate -- which was to provide for a Jewish National Home -- and the rights of the Jewish people to that homeland.  It was direct aggression against the sovereignty and territorial integrity of the Jewish Nation.


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## Shusha (Oct 14, 2016)

P F Tinmore said:


> They had the right to self determination without external interference, the right to independence and sovereignty, and the right to territorial integrity as affirmed in subsequent UN resolutions.



You should read and pay attention to your own words.  Yes, THEY did (do) have the right to self-determination without external interference (like the external interference of Arab bloody armies entering their territory!).  THEY have the right to independence and sovereignty and territorial integrity.  

They, of course, meaning the Jewish people.  

If Syria and Iraq and Jordan and Lebanon can exist, despite having (had) Jews resident there -- and exist as Muslim Arab nations -- why can't Israel exist -- and exist as a Jewish nation -- despite having Arab Muslims and Christians living there?


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## Shusha (Oct 14, 2016)

P F Tinmore said:


> settler colonialism is premised on occupation and the elimination of the native population...



Hmmmm.  That seems awfully familiar.  Where have I heard that before?  Oh yeah!  Something about "driving the Jews into the sea".


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## P F Tinmore (Oct 14, 2016)

*Israel, a Settler Colonial State*

**


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## Shusha (Oct 15, 2016)

Israel, a National Liberation Movement of an Indigenous People


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## Phoenall (Oct 15, 2016)

P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore,  et al,
> ...










 Having to make up definitions now to suit your stance. Were is it stated that "settler colonialism is the replacement of the local population by foriegn settlers".   And when did Syria and Egypt become palestinian ?

Since when were 300,000 arab muslims removed from their homes by Israel in 1947, as Israel was not even in existence. And the history books show that the arab muslims left at the demand of the arab league.

Apart from you and a few other anti semitic Jew haters who calls Israel a settler colonial state


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## Phoenall (Oct 15, 2016)

P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore,  et al,
> ...








Then there was no means of the arab muslims to create palestine in 1988 as they used 181 as the means to do so. It was not up to the arab muslims or the Jews haters of today to declare 181 illegal or invalid and say it never existed. When did the UN reject 181 then, as they were the only body that could do so. The arab muslims having rejected any talks on the subject should have been sent a message from the UN to remove themselves from UN mandate lands forthwith or face being forcibly removed.


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## Phoenall (Oct 15, 2016)

P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore,  et al,
> ...










 Because it was not arab league land, and it was the palestinians that they were going to wipe out. Remember the claims of 1947 when the arab league stated that the Jews would be wiped out and the land returned to islam. That is what you ignore as it shows your stance to be false.   And the Jews were the palestinians or are you denying them their rights again ?


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## Phoenall (Oct 15, 2016)

P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore,  et al,
> ...









 Yes how about one from you to support your claim ?


----------



## Phoenall (Oct 15, 2016)

P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore,  et al,
> ...








 And in 1923 when that was written the palestinians were the Jews that lived in the area. The arab muslims were called Syrians or Egyptians with a few being Saudi's. Which is why the legal documents use the term instead of Jew or Arab muslim because that was the common usage of that time.


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## Phoenall (Oct 15, 2016)

P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore,  et al,
> ...





Did you read your link and see that it says the examples of settler colonialism just so happen to be America and Australia. Now I expect you will ignore this as it points to you being what you hate the most.

from your link . . . . . 

"The entire continent was thereby declared legally uninhabited, despite millennia of Aboriginal occupation. In the late 1980s, during the heyday of postcolonial theory, some scholars started to criticize widespread, generalized use of the term “postcolonial”—a word they considered problematic. They argued that in a settler society like Australia or the United States, colonialism could not be described or theorized in the past tense—there was no “postcolonial.” In these places, the state maintained a colonial relationship with the indigenous peoples (and was complicit in their ongoing dispossession). Following these initial critiques, scholars in anthropology and related disciplines (particularly Indigenous studies) set about analytically disentangling settler colonialism from colonialism while developing new, dedicated theoretical frameworks for settler colonial studies"


You cant have that many toes left the number of times you have shot yourself in the foot. This link like most of yours fails to mention palestine at any time


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## xband (Oct 15, 2016)

SAYIT said:


> As has been the norm for a decade, the Oslo Accords-created Palestinian Authority has "postponed" the October elections. Unsure of the vote's outcome, Abbas's "Supreme Court" ordered the delay while they consider 2 election related issues.
> 
> While this is not an unusual move in places where the rule of law plays second fiddle to the ruling regime's whim, it illustrates the failure of Palestinians to establish an electoral democracy and a genuinely functional state.
> 
> ...



Past behavior predicts future behavior, Dr. Phil.


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## Hollie (Oct 15, 2016)

P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore,  et al,
> ...



"The Arab armies entered Palestine to defend the Palestinians. This was not an aggression against Palestine."

Indeed, that is what you were taught at your madrassah, but you shouldn't expect thinking humans to accept that nonsense as true.


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## Hollie (Oct 15, 2016)

Can Palestinians Govern "Palestine?"

Who said that governance has to be about timely elections, the rule of law, and political parties whose members aren't masked killers who carry a loaded Kalashnikov everywhere they go? Welcome to governance in the islamist Middle East—Pal'istanian Arab style.

Elections to be held... eh, whenever. Ultra violent gangs of armed Islamic terrorists allowed to freely roam the streets, and demand a say in governance. Threats of getting back to the daily routine of mass Israeli murder. Now _that_ is a shining example of islamo-governance in action.

I've really got to say, if there was _ever_ a people who deserved to be given their own sovereign state, it's Pal'istanian Arabs.



*Local Palestinian elections 'referendum on Abbas rule'*
*The Palestinian Authority is buying time to avoid an electoral defeat, analysts say.*

Local Palestinian elections 'referendum on Abbas rule'

The fate of local elections in the occupied Palestinian territories remains unclear as Palestinian officials in the West Bank and the Gaza Strip continue to trade blame for the ongoing political impasse.

On Tuesday, the Palestinian Authority (PA), which governs the Israeli-occupied West Bank, announced that it  would postpone the municipal elections for up to four months.


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## member (Oct 15, 2016)

P F Tinmore said:


> Excellent question.
> 
> The last legally constituted government in Palestine was the unity government of March 2007.
> 
> What happened to that?






​



​
*"The last legally constituted *

 *government in Palestine was the unity government of March 2007."*


_*"What happened to that"*_ ?





​

N_othing.

_


​














​










​











​






.....same *"unity governent."*

it kills you doesn't it ?  _*"Government."*_


Get outta here..... 






​


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