# Israeli forces shoot unarmed protesters from across Gaza security fence, killing at least 15



## montelatici

Nice people those Israeli Jews.

Israeli forces shoot unarmed protesters from across Gaza security fence, killing at least 15


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## fncceo

mondoweiss.net ...

Not exactly an _unbiased _news source.


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## teddyearp

As usual, throwing rocks and firebombs is considered 'unarmed'.  And the UNWRA helped promote these 'protests' as a prelude to try to, again, demonize the Nation of Israel.


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## Hollie

From your link:




IDF

✔@IDFSpokesperson

Hamas tells the world about a peacful protest, it should be called a violent riot.


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## Hollie

montelatici said:


> Nice people those Israeli Jews.
> 
> Israeli forces shoot unarmed protesters from across Gaza security fence, killing at least 15



The PA may want to run a “Dead Martyrs” sale.


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## defcon4

fncceo said:


> mondoweiss.net ...
> 
> Not exactly an _unbiased _news source.


16 killed, dozens wounded as thousands gather on Gaza-Israel border for 'March of Return'


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## teddyearp

defcon4 said:


> fncceo said:
> 
> 
> 
> mondoweiss.net ...
> 
> Not exactly an _unbiased _news source.
> 
> 
> 
> 16 killed, dozens wounded as thousands gather on Gaza-Israel border for 'March of Return'
Click to expand...

Paywall. And Haaretz isn't all that unbiased either.

However as I said up thread, the UNWRA was shoulder to shoulder with Hamas to promote these 'protests'.  Pretty obvious which side the supposed 'neutral' United Nations is on.

And again, rocks and firebombs are 'unarmed', right?

Deplorable.


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## Tijn Von Ingersleben

One of the two sides should hurry up and kill the other...I am tired of my tax dollars going toward this shit show.


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## skye

Tijn Von Ingersleben said:


> One of the two sides should hurry up and kill the other...I am tired of my tax dollars going toward this shit show.




with money or without money...

the show will continue until the palestinians stop their tantrum.


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## teddyearp

Tijn Von Ingersleben said:


> One of the two sides should hurry up and kill the other...I am tired of my tax dollars going toward this shit show.


Yes, we know. In a way I agree about the funds, but how heartless of you to wish for death.


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## Weatherman2020

montelatici said:


> Nice people those Israeli Jews.
> 
> Israeli forces shoot unarmed protesters from across Gaza security fence, killing at least 15


Damn, only 15?  
Back to the practice range tomorrow.


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## skye

you know what?

stop the funding....stopt it   all now! .......I have no problem with that!

will the show stop too?

nope

no when you have the troublemakers  palestinians there.


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## Tijn Von Ingersleben

teddyearp said:


> Tijn Von Ingersleben said:
> 
> 
> 
> One of the two sides should hurry up and kill the other...I am tired of my tax dollars going toward this shit show.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, we know. In a way I agree about the funds, but how heartless of you to wish for death.
Click to expand...

If the Earth were to open up and swallow both groups tomorrow it would make zero difference to me. I am sick sick sick and tired of hearing about these two shitheads fighting over a piece of sand in the middle of nowhere. I am MORE sick of billions of my tax dollars going to fund it. Screw them both...I don't care.


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## Tijn Von Ingersleben

skye said:


> Tijn Von Ingersleben said:
> 
> 
> 
> One of the two sides should hurry up and kill the other...I am tired of my tax dollars going toward this shit show.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> with money or without money...
> 
> the show will continue until the palestinians stop their tantrum.
Click to expand...

Zero fucks given...not my problem...stop taking my tax dollars to fund ANY of it.


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## skye

Tijn Von Ingersleben said:


> skye said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tijn Von Ingersleben said:
> 
> 
> 
> One of the two sides should hurry up and kill the other...I am tired of my tax dollars going toward this shit show.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> with money or without money...
> 
> the show will continue until the palestinians stop their tantrum.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Zero fucks given...not my problem...stop taking my tax dollars to fund ANY of it.
Click to expand...



zero fucks given....by you???? oh nooooooooooooo LOL!

scary!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Weatherman2020

Tijn Von Ingersleben said:


> teddyearp said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tijn Von Ingersleben said:
> 
> 
> 
> One of the two sides should hurry up and kill the other...I am tired of my tax dollars going toward this shit show.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, we know. In a way I agree about the funds, but how heartless of you to wish for death.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> If the Earth were to open up and swallow both groups tomorrow it would make zero difference to me. I am sick sick sick and tired of hearing about these two shitheads fighting over a piece of sand in the middle of nowhere. I am MORE sick of billions of my tax dollars going to fund it. Screw them both...I don't care.
Click to expand...

Money is more important than human lives and Liberty?
How leftist of you.


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## Tijn Von Ingersleben

skye said:


> Tijn Von Ingersleben said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> skye said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tijn Von Ingersleben said:
> 
> 
> 
> One of the two sides should hurry up and kill the other...I am tired of my tax dollars going toward this shit show.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> with money or without money...
> 
> the show will continue until the palestinians stop their tantrum.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Zero fucks given...not my problem...stop taking my tax dollars to fund ANY of it.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> zero fucks given....by you???? oh nooooooooooooo LOL!
> 
> scary!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Click to expand...

That's exactly how I see non jews who care about this shit show. It makes no sense to me. If you think it makes a bit of sense answer this question. If Israel and the Palestinians were to vaporize into non existence tomorrow would it drastically affect your life as non-Jew? 
If you ARE a Jew...move your ass there to affect change. No one else really cares.


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## RetiredGySgt

We have allies and we are beholden to them Israel is a staunch ally and has helped us repeatedly in the past, that you whiny little snots want to forget that speaks ill of you and this Country.


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## Tijn Von Ingersleben

Weatherman2020 said:


> Tijn Von Ingersleben said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> teddyearp said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tijn Von Ingersleben said:
> 
> 
> 
> One of the two sides should hurry up and kill the other...I am tired of my tax dollars going toward this shit show.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, we know. In a way I agree about the funds, but how heartless of you to wish for death.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> If the Earth were to open up and swallow both groups tomorrow it would make zero difference to me. I am sick sick sick and tired of hearing about these two shitheads fighting over a piece of sand in the middle of nowhere. I am MORE sick of billions of my tax dollars going to fund it. Screw them both...I don't care.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Money is more important than human lives and Liberty?
> How leftist of you.
Click to expand...

Human lives...let's give the world a bit of equanimity shall we? How many 'put upon', ''oppressed' groups does this world have?....odd we should focus so much energy on such a small spot in the world?
Whose in YOUR wallet?
Americans need to be sick of this. Billions per year for what? Ridiculous.


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## Weatherman2020

Tijn Von Ingersleben said:


> Weatherman2020 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tijn Von Ingersleben said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> teddyearp said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tijn Von Ingersleben said:
> 
> 
> 
> One of the two sides should hurry up and kill the other...I am tired of my tax dollars going toward this shit show.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, we know. In a way I agree about the funds, but how heartless of you to wish for death.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> If the Earth were to open up and swallow both groups tomorrow it would make zero difference to me. I am sick sick sick and tired of hearing about these two shitheads fighting over a piece of sand in the middle of nowhere. I am MORE sick of billions of my tax dollars going to fund it. Screw them both...I don't care.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Money is more important than human lives and Liberty?
> How leftist of you.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Human lives...let's give the world a bit of equanimity shall we? How many 'put upon', ''oppressed' groups does this world have?....odd we should focus so much energy on such a small spot in the world?
> Whose in YOUR wallet?
> Americans need to be sick of this. Billions per year for what? Ridiculous.
Click to expand...

No mystery why the world focuses on that tiny strip of sand.
Gods chosen people live there.

I've been in the West Bank, you?


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## Tijn Von Ingersleben

RetiredGySgt said:


> We have allies and we are beholden to them Israel is a staunch ally and has helped us repeatedly in the past, that you whiny little snots want to forget that speaks ill of you and this Country.


Israel and the dispensationalists can eat my shit. Where were the Israelis and the whacko dispensationalist end timers when I was in Iraq and Afghanistan? They can go eat a big bowl of shit.
You clowns keep buying into this scam as if Israel's and America's existence are somehow contingent upon one another. 
Jesus...wake the fuck up.


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## Tijn Von Ingersleben

Weatherman2020 said:


> Tijn Von Ingersleben said:
> 
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> Weatherman2020 said:
> 
> 
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> Tijn Von Ingersleben said:
> 
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> teddyearp said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tijn Von Ingersleben said:
> 
> 
> 
> One of the two sides should hurry up and kill the other...I am tired of my tax dollars going toward this shit show.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, we know. In a way I agree about the funds, but how heartless of you to wish for death.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> If the Earth were to open up and swallow both groups tomorrow it would make zero difference to me. I am sick sick sick and tired of hearing about these two shitheads fighting over a piece of sand in the middle of nowhere. I am MORE sick of billions of my tax dollars going to fund it. Screw them both...I don't care.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Money is more important than human lives and Liberty?
> How leftist of you.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Human lives...let's give the world a bit of equanimity shall we? How many 'put upon', ''oppressed' groups does this world have?....odd we should focus so much energy on such a small spot in the world?
> Whose in YOUR wallet?
> Americans need to be sick of this. Billions per year for what? Ridiculous.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> No mystery why the world focuses on that tiny strip of sand.
> Gods chosen people live there.
> 
> I've been in the West Bank, you?
Click to expand...

Don't give a shit about the West Bank...I AM AN AMERICAN.


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## Shusha

montelatici said:


> Nice people those Israeli Jews.
> 
> Israeli forces shoot unarmed protesters from across Gaza security fence, killing at least 15



They weren't unarmed.  They were armed with rocks, firebombs, guns and possibly bombs.  They were all young men.  They all attempted to reach or breach the fence.  

I agree that lethal force should be the last resort -- but when Gazans are planting bombs attempting to kill Israelis on sovereign Israeli territory, they are combatants and not "unarmed protesters".


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## fncceo

Just a heaping helping of Pallywood served up fresh for the holidays.  

Enjoy.


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## ILOVEISRAEL

Tijn Von Ingersleben said:


> skye said:
> 
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> Tijn Von Ingersleben said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> skye said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tijn Von Ingersleben said:
> 
> 
> 
> One of the two sides should hurry up and kill the other...I am tired of my tax dollars going toward this shit show.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> with money or without money...
> 
> the show will continue until the palestinians stop their tantrum.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Zero fucks given...not my problem...stop taking my tax dollars to fund ANY of it.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> zero fucks given....by you???? oh nooooooooooooo LOL!
> 
> scary!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> That's exactly how I see non jews who care about this shit show. It makes no sense to me. If you think it makes a bit of sense answer this question. If Israel and the Palestinians were to vaporize into non existence tomorrow would it drastically affect your life as non-Jew?
> If you ARE a Jew...move your ass there to affect change. No one else really cares.
Click to expand...


 Nobody cares that you don’t care!   If this were any other Country and a Jewish poster felt that way you would be calling them Racist


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## ILOVEISRAEL

Tijn Von Ingersleben said:


> Weatherman2020 said:
> 
> 
> 
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> 
> Tijn Von Ingersleben said:
> 
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> Weatherman2020 said:
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> Tijn Von Ingersleben said:
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> 
> 
> 
> 
> teddyearp said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, we know. In a way I agree about the funds, but how heartless of you to wish for death.
> 
> 
> 
> If the Earth were to open up and swallow both groups tomorrow it would make zero difference to me. I am sick sick sick and tired of hearing about these two shitheads fighting over a piece of sand in the middle of nowhere. I am MORE sick of billions of my tax dollars going to fund it. Screw them both...I don't care.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Money is more important than human lives and Liberty?
> How leftist of you.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Human lives...let's give the world a bit of equanimity shall we? How many 'put upon', ''oppressed' groups does this world have?....odd we should focus so much energy on such a small spot in the world?
> Whose in YOUR wallet?
> Americans need to be sick of this. Billions per year for what? Ridiculous.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> No mystery why the world focuses on that tiny strip of sand.
> Gods chosen people live there.
> 
> I've been in the West Bank, you?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Don't give a shit about the West Bank...I AM AN AMERICAN.
Click to expand...


Eat your own Shit! In the meantime in all of Israel’s Wars with the Arabs not ONE of our Military was over there!   You ask where the Israelis were? Do you Really expect an Israeli in a Muslim Country? Of course you do. That would ensure them killing killed or worse.


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## ILOVEISRAEL

Hollie said:


> From your link:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> IDF
> 
> ✔@IDFSpokesperson
> 
> Hamas tells the world about a peacful protest, it should be called a violent riot.



The Pro Palestinian has trouble with Reading Comphrension.  Leave it to the Fucking Palestinians to initiate violence the beginning of Passover.


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## Darkwind

montelatici said:


> Nice people those Israeli Jews.
> 
> Israeli forces shoot unarmed protesters from across Gaza security fence, killing at least 15


Those Jews need more marksman training if they only managed to get 15 of them.


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## cnm

RetiredGySgt said:


> We have allies and we are beholden to them Israel is a staunch ally and has helped us repeatedly in the past


Especially with the USS Liberty.


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## cnm

Darkwind said:


> montelatici said:
> 
> 
> 
> Nice people those Israeli Jews.
> 
> Israeli forces shoot unarmed protesters from across Gaza security fence, killing at least 15
> 
> 
> 
> Those Jews need more marksman training if they only managed to get 15 of them.
Click to expand...

I think that number reflects them belonging to the most moral army in the world.
The truth about the Israel Defense Forces, 'the world's most moral army'


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## Mindful

ILOVEISRAEL said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> From your link:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> IDF
> 
> ✔@IDFSpokesperson
> 
> Hamas tells the world about a peacful protest, it should be called a violent riot.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Pro Palestinian has trouble with Reading Comphrension.  Leave it to the Fucking Palestinians to initiate violence the beginning of Passover.
Click to expand...


Exactly!

They chose Yom Kippur once to attack Israel.


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## ILOVEISRAEL

Mindful said:


> ILOVEISRAEL said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> From your link:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> IDF
> 
> ✔@IDFSpokesperson
> 
> Hamas tells the world about a peacful protest, it should be called a violent riot.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Pro Palestinian has trouble with Reading Comphrension.  Leave it to the Fucking Palestinians to initiate violence the beginning of Passover.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Exactly!
> 
> They chose Yom Kippur once to attack Israel.
Click to expand...


THANK YOU.  !!!!!!!!


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## Humanity

Shusha said:


> montelatici said:
> 
> 
> 
> Nice people those Israeli Jews.
> 
> Israeli forces shoot unarmed protesters from across Gaza security fence, killing at least 15
> 
> 
> 
> 
> They weren't unarmed.  They were armed with rocks, firebombs, guns and possibly bombs.  They were all young men.  They all attempted to reach or breach the fence.
> 
> I agree that lethal force should be the last resort -- but when Gazans are planting bombs attempting to kill Israelis on sovereign Israeli territory, they are combatants and not "unarmed protesters".
Click to expand...


Clearly throwing rocks and petrol bombs is, in no way, "unarmed".

Lethal force used is simply not acceptable in this instance.

Your comment Shusha, where you try to justify lethal force with "planting bombs"... Is there any evidence of this, in this situation?

In your first paragraph you say "possibly" which suggests that there is no evidence of this.


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## Penelope

teddyearp said:


> As usual, throwing rocks and firebombs is considered 'unarmed'.  And the UNWRA helped promote these 'protests' as a prelude to try to, again, demonize the Nation of Israel.



As compared to guns, yep.


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## Penelope

Weatherman2020 said:


> Tijn Von Ingersleben said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Weatherman2020 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tijn Von Ingersleben said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> teddyearp said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tijn Von Ingersleben said:
> 
> 
> 
> One of the two sides should hurry up and kill the other...I am tired of my tax dollars going toward this shit show.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, we know. In a way I agree about the funds, but how heartless of you to wish for death.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> If the Earth were to open up and swallow both groups tomorrow it would make zero difference to me. I am sick sick sick and tired of hearing about these two shitheads fighting over a piece of sand in the middle of nowhere. I am MORE sick of billions of my tax dollars going to fund it. Screw them both...I don't care.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Money is more important than human lives and Liberty?
> How leftist of you.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Human lives...let's give the world a bit of equanimity shall we? How many 'put upon', ''oppressed' groups does this world have?....odd we should focus so much energy on such a small spot in the world?
> Whose in YOUR wallet?
> Americans need to be sick of this. Billions per year for what? Ridiculous.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> No mystery why the world focuses on that tiny strip of sand.
> Gods chosen people live there.
> 
> I've been in the West Bank, you?
Click to expand...


When are Christians going to get over worshipping Jews, they do not think much of Christians.


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## ILOVEISRAEL

Penelope said:


> Weatherman2020 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tijn Von Ingersleben said:
> 
> 
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> 
> Weatherman2020 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tijn Von Ingersleben said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> teddyearp said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, we know. In a way I agree about the funds, but how heartless of you to wish for death.
> 
> 
> 
> If the Earth were to open up and swallow both groups tomorrow it would make zero difference to me. I am sick sick sick and tired of hearing about these two shitheads fighting over a piece of sand in the middle of nowhere. I am MORE sick of billions of my tax dollars going to fund it. Screw them both...I don't care.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Money is more important than human lives and Liberty?
> How leftist of you.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Human lives...let's give the world a bit of equanimity shall we? How many 'put upon', ''oppressed' groups does this world have?....odd we should focus so much energy on such a small spot in the world?
> Whose in YOUR wallet?
> Americans need to be sick of this. Billions per year for what? Ridiculous.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> No mystery why the world focuses on that tiny strip of sand.
> Gods chosen people live there.
> 
> I've been in the West Bank, you?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> When are Christians going to get over worshipping Jews, they do not think much of Christians.
Click to expand...


The Jew Hater speaks again. There have been plenty of threads about Christian Anti Semitism going on for over 2000 years and she ignores them all


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## Hollie

Penelope said:


> teddyearp said:
> 
> 
> 
> As usual, throwing rocks and firebombs is considered 'unarmed'.  And the UNWRA helped promote these 'protests' as a prelude to try to, again, demonize the Nation of Israel.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As compared to guns, yep.
Click to expand...


Are you suggesting the IDF should throw rocks in return?


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## Weatherman2020

Penelope said:


> Weatherman2020 said:
> 
> 
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> Tijn Von Ingersleben said:
> 
> 
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> Weatherman2020 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tijn Von Ingersleben said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> teddyearp said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, we know. In a way I agree about the funds, but how heartless of you to wish for death.
> 
> 
> 
> If the Earth were to open up and swallow both groups tomorrow it would make zero difference to me. I am sick sick sick and tired of hearing about these two shitheads fighting over a piece of sand in the middle of nowhere. I am MORE sick of billions of my tax dollars going to fund it. Screw them both...I don't care.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Money is more important than human lives and Liberty?
> How leftist of you.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Human lives...let's give the world a bit of equanimity shall we? How many 'put upon', ''oppressed' groups does this world have?....odd we should focus so much energy on such a small spot in the world?
> Whose in YOUR wallet?
> Americans need to be sick of this. Billions per year for what? Ridiculous.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> No mystery why the world focuses on that tiny strip of sand.
> Gods chosen people live there.
> 
> I've been in the West Bank, you?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> When are Christians going to get over worshipping Jews, they do not think much of Christians.
Click to expand...

God was right.  You prove Jew haters are cursed.


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## ILOVEISRAEL

Hollie said:


> Penelope said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> teddyearp said:
> 
> 
> 
> As usual, throwing rocks and firebombs is considered 'unarmed'.  And the UNWRA helped promote these 'protests' as a prelude to try to, again, demonize the Nation of Israel.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As compared to guns, yep.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Are you suggesting the IDF should throw rocks in return?
Click to expand...


No: The Jew Hater would probably want the IDF to ignore them.


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## Penelope

Hollie said:


> Penelope said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> teddyearp said:
> 
> 
> 
> As usual, throwing rocks and firebombs is considered 'unarmed'.  And the UNWRA helped promote these 'protests' as a prelude to try to, again, demonize the Nation of Israel.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As compared to guns, yep.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Are you suggesting the IDF should throw rocks in return?
Click to expand...


Maybe give the Pals some guns , at least be equal on the battlefield. Or IDF can throw rocks.


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## Penelope

Weatherman2020 said:


> Penelope said:
> 
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> Weatherman2020 said:
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> Tijn Von Ingersleben said:
> 
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> Weatherman2020 said:
> 
> 
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> 
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> Tijn Von Ingersleben said:
> 
> 
> 
> If the Earth were to open up and swallow both groups tomorrow it would make zero difference to me. I am sick sick sick and tired of hearing about these two shitheads fighting over a piece of sand in the middle of nowhere. I am MORE sick of billions of my tax dollars going to fund it. Screw them both...I don't care.
> 
> 
> 
> Money is more important than human lives and Liberty?
> How leftist of you.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Human lives...let's give the world a bit of equanimity shall we? How many 'put upon', ''oppressed' groups does this world have?....odd we should focus so much energy on such a small spot in the world?
> Whose in YOUR wallet?
> Americans need to be sick of this. Billions per year for what? Ridiculous.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> No mystery why the world focuses on that tiny strip of sand.
> Gods chosen people live there.
> 
> I've been in the West Bank, you?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> When are Christians going to get over worshipping Jews, they do not think much of Christians.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> God was right.  You prove Jew haters are cursed.
Click to expand...


Which God?


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## Hollie

Penelope said:


> Hollie said:
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> Penelope said:
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> 
> 
> teddyearp said:
> 
> 
> 
> As usual, throwing rocks and firebombs is considered 'unarmed'.  And the UNWRA helped promote these 'protests' as a prelude to try to, again, demonize the Nation of Israel.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As compared to guns, yep.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Are you suggesting the IDF should throw rocks in return?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Maybe give the Pals some guns , at least be equal on the battlefield. Or IDF can throw rocks.
Click to expand...


The Islamic terrorist pals have guns. They flail those guns around during their silly fashion show parades.


----------



## Penelope

ILOVEISRAEL said:


> Penelope said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Weatherman2020 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tijn Von Ingersleben said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Weatherman2020 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tijn Von Ingersleben said:
> 
> 
> 
> If the Earth were to open up and swallow both groups tomorrow it would make zero difference to me. I am sick sick sick and tired of hearing about these two shitheads fighting over a piece of sand in the middle of nowhere. I am MORE sick of billions of my tax dollars going to fund it. Screw them both...I don't care.
> 
> 
> 
> Money is more important than human lives and Liberty?
> How leftist of you.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Human lives...let's give the world a bit of equanimity shall we? How many 'put upon', ''oppressed' groups does this world have?....odd we should focus so much energy on such a small spot in the world?
> Whose in YOUR wallet?
> Americans need to be sick of this. Billions per year for what? Ridiculous.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> No mystery why the world focuses on that tiny strip of sand.
> Gods chosen people live there.
> 
> I've been in the West Bank, you?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> When are Christians going to get over worshipping Jews, they do not think much of Christians.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The Jew Hater speaks again. There have been plenty of threads about Christian Anti Semitism going on for over 2000 years and she ignores them all
Click to expand...


The Palestinians are Semites as well. What does that make you?


----------



## Penelope

Hollie said:


> Penelope said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Penelope said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> teddyearp said:
> 
> 
> 
> As usual, throwing rocks and firebombs is considered 'unarmed'.  And the UNWRA helped promote these 'protests' as a prelude to try to, again, demonize the Nation of Israel.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As compared to guns, yep.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Are you suggesting the IDF should throw rocks in return?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Maybe give the Pals some guns , at least be equal on the battlefield. Or IDF can throw rocks.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The Islamic terrorist pals have guns. They flail those guns around during their silly fashion show parades.
Click to expand...


Only on display, why do they throw rocks?


----------



## ILOVEISRAEL

Penelope said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Penelope said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> teddyearp said:
> 
> 
> 
> As usual, throwing rocks and firebombs is considered 'unarmed'.  And the UNWRA helped promote these 'protests' as a prelude to try to, again, demonize the Nation of Israel.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As compared to guns, yep.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Are you suggesting the IDF should throw rocks in return?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Maybe give the Pals some guns , at least be equal on the battlefield. Or IDF can throw rocks.
Click to expand...


Maybe the Palestinians shouldn’t initiate Rock throwing or is that too simple for a “ Christian” like you who had over 2000 years of Jewish Hate?


----------



## Hollie

Penelope said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Penelope said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Penelope said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> teddyearp said:
> 
> 
> 
> As usual, throwing rocks and firebombs is considered 'unarmed'.  And the UNWRA helped promote these 'protests' as a prelude to try to, again, demonize the Nation of Israel.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As compared to guns, yep.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Are you suggesting the IDF should throw rocks in return?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Maybe give the Pals some guns , at least be equal on the battlefield. Or IDF can throw rocks.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The Islamic terrorist pals have guns. They flail those guns around during their silly fashion show parades.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Only on display, why do they throw rocks?
Click to expand...


Why do you waste everyone’s time with pointless whining?

Put your Jew hating convictions in practice and join your rock-chucking heroes.


----------



## Tijn Von Ingersleben

Penelope said:


> Weatherman2020 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tijn Von Ingersleben said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Weatherman2020 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tijn Von Ingersleben said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> teddyearp said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, we know. In a way I agree about the funds, but how heartless of you to wish for death.
> 
> 
> 
> If the Earth were to open up and swallow both groups tomorrow it would make zero difference to me. I am sick sick sick and tired of hearing about these two shitheads fighting over a piece of sand in the middle of nowhere. I am MORE sick of billions of my tax dollars going to fund it. Screw them both...I don't care.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Money is more important than human lives and Liberty?
> How leftist of you.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Human lives...let's give the world a bit of equanimity shall we? How many 'put upon', ''oppressed' groups does this world have?....odd we should focus so much energy on such a small spot in the world?
> Whose in YOUR wallet?
> Americans need to be sick of this. Billions per year for what? Ridiculous.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> No mystery why the world focuses on that tiny strip of sand.
> Gods chosen people live there.
> 
> I've been in the West Bank, you?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> When are Christians going to get over worshipping Jews, they do not think much of Christians.
Click to expand...

Yeah...imagine that?...Jews could give a rat's ass about a Christians...why? Because they are JEWS...in ISRAEL. Shocking how that works. All these Christians genuflecting to people who don't share their culture, religion, language...bit pitiful...and expensive.


----------



## ILOVEISRAEL

Tijn Von Ingersleben said:


> Penelope said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Weatherman2020 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tijn Von Ingersleben said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Weatherman2020 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tijn Von Ingersleben said:
> 
> 
> 
> If the Earth were to open up and swallow both groups tomorrow it would make zero difference to me. I am sick sick sick and tired of hearing about these two shitheads fighting over a piece of sand in the middle of nowhere. I am MORE sick of billions of my tax dollars going to fund it. Screw them both...I don't care.
> 
> 
> 
> Money is more important than human lives and Liberty?
> How leftist of you.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Human lives...let's give the world a bit of equanimity shall we? How many 'put upon', ''oppressed' groups does this world have?....odd we should focus so much energy on such a small spot in the world?
> Whose in YOUR wallet?
> Americans need to be sick of this. Billions per year for what? Ridiculous.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> No mystery why the world focuses on that tiny strip of sand.
> Gods chosen people live there.
> 
> I've been in the West Bank, you?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> When are Christians going to get over worshipping Jews, they do not think much of Christians.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Yeah...imagine that?...Jews could give a rat's ass about a Christians...why? Because they are JEWS...in ISRAEL. Shocking how that works. All these Christians genuflecting to people who don't share their culture, religion, language...bit pitiful...and expensive.
Click to expand...


Another Jew Hater who ignores links of Christian Anti Jewish Hate.  What do you mean by not “ sharing” culture, religion or language? Do you feel that way about Muslims, Indians, Chinese, Japanese, etc. people who come here,  it’s OK for Hispanics to speak their language, Muslims to speak theirs, Indians, Chinese , etc. etc. to speak theirs but not the Jews? 
   Regarding “ Religion” Jews should convert to Christianity but not other groups? Typical Jew Hating “ Christian” that had gone on for over 2000 years.


----------



## Shusha

Humanity said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> montelatici said:
> 
> 
> 
> Nice people those Israeli Jews.
> 
> Israeli forces shoot unarmed protesters from across Gaza security fence, killing at least 15
> 
> 
> 
> 
> They weren't unarmed.  They were armed with rocks, firebombs, guns and possibly bombs.  They were all young men.  They all attempted to reach or breach the fence.
> 
> I agree that lethal force should be the last resort -- but when Gazans are planting bombs attempting to kill Israelis on sovereign Israeli territory, they are combatants and not "unarmed protesters".
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Clearly throwing rocks and petrol bombs is, in no way, "unarmed".
> 
> Lethal force used is simply not acceptable in this instance.
> 
> Your comment Shusha, where you try to justify lethal force with "planting bombs"... Is there any evidence of this, in this situation?
> 
> In your first paragraph you say "possibly" which suggests that there is no evidence of this.
Click to expand...


Yes. There have been several instances of Gazans planting IEDs along the fence, including one instance yesterday. There were also two instances of the use of guns. My point being that, as far as I know, all of those now dead approached the fence with intent to do harm with weapons that are certainly (bombs and guns) or potentially (rocks and firebombs) lethal. 

It is an extremely volatile situation, with anywhere between 20,000 and 30,000 people near the fence line. All those who protested peacefully well away from the fence were safe. Even some who approached the fence (including a seven year old child urged by her parents!!!!! In a clear violation of every moral and legal code) were safe. 

But those carrying lethal weapons presented themselves as combatants and were met with an equal level of force. 

It seems to meto be a careful, nuanced response by Israel. Yet you argue that Israel should not be permitted to use lethal force?  At all?

What SHOULD be the rules of engagement, in you mind?  Under which conditions is it permissible for Israel to defend itself using lethal force?


----------



## Penelope

Yet they are fenced in, while Israelis  tanks shoot at them.  They are not even allowed to come up to the fence, why doesn't the Israelis make a new fence  inside of the old fence and repeat the steps until Gaza is no longer?


----------



## P F Tinmore




----------



## Penelope

ILOVEISRAEL said:


> Tijn Von Ingersleben said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Penelope said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Weatherman2020 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tijn Von Ingersleben said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Weatherman2020 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Money is more important than human lives and Liberty?
> How leftist of you.
> 
> 
> 
> Human lives...let's give the world a bit of equanimity shall we? How many 'put upon', ''oppressed' groups does this world have?....odd we should focus so much energy on such a small spot in the world?
> Whose in YOUR wallet?
> Americans need to be sick of this. Billions per year for what? Ridiculous.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> No mystery why the world focuses on that tiny strip of sand.
> Gods chosen people live there.
> 
> I've been in the West Bank, you?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> When are Christians going to get over worshipping Jews, they do not think much of Christians.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Yeah...imagine that?...Jews could give a rat's ass about a Christians...why? Because they are JEWS...in ISRAEL. Shocking how that works. All these Christians genuflecting to people who don't share their culture, religion, language...bit pitiful...and expensive.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Another Jew Hater who ignores links of Christian Anti Jewish Hate.  What do you mean by not “ sharing” culture, religion or language? Do you feel that way about Muslims, Indians, Chinese, Japanese, etc. people who come here,  it’s OK for Hispanics to speak their language, Muslims to speak theirs, Indians, Chinese , etc. etc. to speak theirs but not the Jews?
> Regarding “ Religion” Jews should convert to Christianity but not other groups? Typical Jew Hating “ Christian” that had gone on for over 2000 years.
Click to expand...


Even the JVP are jew haters, anyone who doesn't love the Zionist state is antisemetic and a Jew hater, even if they are jewish.


----------



## Humanity

Shusha said:


> Humanity said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> montelatici said:
> 
> 
> 
> Nice people those Israeli Jews.
> 
> Israeli forces shoot unarmed protesters from across Gaza security fence, killing at least 15
> 
> 
> 
> 
> They weren't unarmed.  They were armed with rocks, firebombs, guns and possibly bombs.  They were all young men.  They all attempted to reach or breach the fence.
> 
> I agree that lethal force should be the last resort -- but when Gazans are planting bombs attempting to kill Israelis on sovereign Israeli territory, they are combatants and not "unarmed protesters".
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Clearly throwing rocks and petrol bombs is, in no way, "unarmed".
> 
> Lethal force used is simply not acceptable in this instance.
> 
> Your comment Shusha, where you try to justify lethal force with "planting bombs"... Is there any evidence of this, in this situation?
> 
> In your first paragraph you say "possibly" which suggests that there is no evidence of this.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yes. There have been several instances of Gazans planting IEDs along the fence, including one instance yesterday. There were also two instances of the use of guns. My point being that, as far as I know, all of those now dead approached the fence with intent to do harm with weapons that are certainly (bombs and guns) or potentially (rocks and firebombs) lethal.
> 
> It is an extremely volatile situation, with anywhere between 20,000 and 30,000 people near the fence line. All those who protested peacefully well away from the fence were safe. Even some who approached the fence (including a seven year old child urged by her parents!!!!! In a clear violation of every moral and legal code) were safe.
> 
> But those carrying lethal weapons presented themselves as combatants and were met with an equal level of force.
> 
> It seems to meto be a careful, nuanced response by Israel. Yet you argue that Israel should not be permitted to use lethal force?  At all?
> 
> What SHOULD be the rules of engagement, in you mind?  Under which conditions is it permissible for Israel to defend itself using lethal force?
Click to expand...


Ok, so we are talking about yesterday. Clearly you were unsure of whether in fact there was a bomb planted yesterday and, to be honest, I haven't seen any report of one being planted.

Do you have proof of those approaching the fence carrying guns and bombs with an "intent" to do harm?

There was no invasion of Israel as far as I could see? Those killed were the 'right side' of the fence no?

I didn't and never have argued against Israel using lethal force. My issue is that the IDF are firing across a border. What next? IDF crossing that border to disperse the protesters?

There is a very fine line and it seems that Israel crosses that line every time!

As for numbers of protesters, IDF have said 17,000 in total. Not sure where you get almost double that number.

If you want to argue who started what and when... "The first to die was Omar Samour, 27 - a Palestinian farmer killed in Israeli shelling as he worked his land near Khan Younis early on Friday, before the protests began."


----------



## Toddsterpatriot

Unarmed?


----------



## Hollie

P F Tinmore said:


>



Odd that such a photo doesnt show any of the islamic terrorist "yutes" throwing rocks.


----------



## Penelope

Toddsterpatriot said:


> Unarmed?



Did Israel start those fires.  No caption of pic, could be anywhere and anytime!


----------



## RetiredGySgt

Humanity said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Humanity said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> montelatici said:
> 
> 
> 
> Nice people those Israeli Jews.
> 
> Israeli forces shoot unarmed protesters from across Gaza security fence, killing at least 15
> 
> 
> 
> 
> They weren't unarmed.  They were armed with rocks, firebombs, guns and possibly bombs.  They were all young men.  They all attempted to reach or breach the fence.
> 
> I agree that lethal force should be the last resort -- but when Gazans are planting bombs attempting to kill Israelis on sovereign Israeli territory, they are combatants and not "unarmed protesters".
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Clearly throwing rocks and petrol bombs is, in no way, "unarmed".
> 
> Lethal force used is simply not acceptable in this instance.
> 
> Your comment Shusha, where you try to justify lethal force with "planting bombs"... Is there any evidence of this, in this situation?
> 
> In your first paragraph you say "possibly" which suggests that there is no evidence of this.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yes. There have been several instances of Gazans planting IEDs along the fence, including one instance yesterday. There were also two instances of the use of guns. My point being that, as far as I know, all of those now dead approached the fence with intent to do harm with weapons that are certainly (bombs and guns) or potentially (rocks and firebombs) lethal.
> 
> It is an extremely volatile situation, with anywhere between 20,000 and 30,000 people near the fence line. All those who protested peacefully well away from the fence were safe. Even some who approached the fence (including a seven year old child urged by her parents!!!!! In a clear violation of every moral and legal code) were safe.
> 
> But those carrying lethal weapons presented themselves as combatants and were met with an equal level of force.
> 
> It seems to meto be a careful, nuanced response by Israel. Yet you argue that Israel should not be permitted to use lethal force?  At all?
> 
> What SHOULD be the rules of engagement, in you mind?  Under which conditions is it permissible for Israel to defend itself using lethal force?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Ok, so we are talking about yesterday. Clearly you were unsure of whether in fact there was a bomb planted yesterday and, to be honest, I haven't seen any report of one being planted.
> 
> Do you have proof of those approaching the fence carrying guns and bombs with an "intent" to do harm?
> 
> There was no invasion of Israel as far as I could see? Those killed were the 'right side' of the fence no?
> 
> I didn't and never have argued against Israel using lethal force. My issue is that the IDF are firing across a border. What next? IDF crossing that border to disperse the protesters?
> 
> There is a very fine line and it seems that Israel crosses that line every time!
> 
> As for numbers of protesters, IDF have said 17,000 in total. Not sure where you get almost double that number.
> 
> If you want to argue who started what and when... "The first to die was Omar Samour, 27 - a Palestinian farmer killed in Israeli shelling as he worked his land near Khan Younis early on Friday, before the protests began."
Click to expand...

And yet you don't mind the "peaceful" protestors throwing rocks and gasoline bombs across that border. Right?


----------



## Tilly

Throw rocks and firebombs at soldiers guarding their border and you can expect a response you probably won’t like.


Manelis added that the military used discretion when using live fire, adding that all the Palestinian fatalities were men between the ages of 18 and 30. *He noted that several of the fatalities identified with Hamas, one of whom was considered a central figure in the organization."


16 killed, dozens wounded as thousands gather on Gaza-Israel border for 'March of Return'*


----------



## LA RAM FAN

fncceo said:


> mondoweiss.net ...
> 
> Not exactly an _unbiased _news source.



except for Israeli apologists like you,even when video proof is provided of their atrocities of shooting palestine women and children somehow it is always the palestines fault.


----------



## Humanity

RetiredGySgt said:


> Humanity said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Humanity said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> montelatici said:
> 
> 
> 
> Nice people those Israeli Jews.
> 
> Israeli forces shoot unarmed protesters from across Gaza security fence, killing at least 15
> 
> 
> 
> 
> They weren't unarmed.  They were armed with rocks, firebombs, guns and possibly bombs.  They were all young men.  They all attempted to reach or breach the fence.
> 
> I agree that lethal force should be the last resort -- but when Gazans are planting bombs attempting to kill Israelis on sovereign Israeli territory, they are combatants and not "unarmed protesters".
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Clearly throwing rocks and petrol bombs is, in no way, "unarmed".
> 
> Lethal force used is simply not acceptable in this instance.
> 
> Your comment Shusha, where you try to justify lethal force with "planting bombs"... Is there any evidence of this, in this situation?
> 
> In your first paragraph you say "possibly" which suggests that there is no evidence of this.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yes. There have been several instances of Gazans planting IEDs along the fence, including one instance yesterday. There were also two instances of the use of guns. My point being that, as far as I know, all of those now dead approached the fence with intent to do harm with weapons that are certainly (bombs and guns) or potentially (rocks and firebombs) lethal.
> 
> It is an extremely volatile situation, with anywhere between 20,000 and 30,000 people near the fence line. All those who protested peacefully well away from the fence were safe. Even some who approached the fence (including a seven year old child urged by her parents!!!!! In a clear violation of every moral and legal code) were safe.
> 
> But those carrying lethal weapons presented themselves as combatants and were met with an equal level of force.
> 
> It seems to meto be a careful, nuanced response by Israel. Yet you argue that Israel should not be permitted to use lethal force?  At all?
> 
> What SHOULD be the rules of engagement, in you mind?  Under which conditions is it permissible for Israel to defend itself using lethal force?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Ok, so we are talking about yesterday. Clearly you were unsure of whether in fact there was a bomb planted yesterday and, to be honest, I haven't seen any report of one being planted.
> 
> Do you have proof of those approaching the fence carrying guns and bombs with an "intent" to do harm?
> 
> There was no invasion of Israel as far as I could see? Those killed were the 'right side' of the fence no?
> 
> I didn't and never have argued against Israel using lethal force. My issue is that the IDF are firing across a border. What next? IDF crossing that border to disperse the protesters?
> 
> There is a very fine line and it seems that Israel crosses that line every time!
> 
> As for numbers of protesters, IDF have said 17,000 in total. Not sure where you get almost double that number.
> 
> If you want to argue who started what and when... "The first to die was Omar Samour, 27 - a Palestinian farmer killed in Israeli shelling as he worked his land near Khan Younis early on Friday, before the protests began."
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> And yet you don't mind the "peaceful" protestors throwing rocks and gasoline bombs across that border. Right?
Click to expand...


Did I say that?

It's ok, you can put words into my mouth, thats fine... Doesn't make it right does it!


----------



## Tilly

Seems like their practice of using children as human shields (in this case a young girl - no doubt viewed as expendable due to her gender) didn’t work out as Hamas hoped. Her parents were probably looking forward to their ‘martyr’ payment too. What a despicable thing to do.

*Haaretz reported that a seven-year-old girl was sent to the border fence by Hamas. According to the IDF Spokesperson's Unit, the military made sure she was safely returned to her parents. *


16 killed, dozens wounded as thousands gather on Gaza-Israel border for 'March of Return'


----------



## ILOVEISRAEL

Penelope said:


> Toddsterpatriot said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unarmed?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Did Israel start those fires.  No caption of pic, could be anywhere and anytime!
Click to expand...


Israel might have started them? Link, please. There will be no response.


----------



## Hollie

Hamas admits 5 of its gunmen among 16 Gazans killed in Friday’s border violence

*Gaza's ruling terror group claims operatives were taking part in 'popular events side-by-side with their people'; IDF warns against renewed violence as small protests persist*
By AGENCIES and TOI STAFFToday, 4:36 pm  5




Gaza's Hamas terrorist rulers released these images of members of its military wing who it acknowledged were among 16 Gazans it said were killed by Israeli fire during clashes along the security fence on Friday, March 30, 2018. 


Palestinian terror group Hamas, which rules the Gaza Strip, acknowledged on Saturday that five members of its military wing, the Izz ad-Din al-Qassam Brigades, were among 16 Gazans said killed on Friday during a massive march and protest along the security fence with Israel.



Maybe it’s just me but were the dead gee-had retrogrades above the product of generations of inbreeding?


----------



## harmonica

montelatici said:


> Nice people those Israeli Jews.
> 
> Israeli forces shoot unarmed protesters from across Gaza security fence, killing at least 15


good....the Pals should thank god that Israel hasn't shoved them into the sea for all the murderous crap the Pals have done
...the Pals are so murderous--they murder their own kind who had to fight them also 
..their own kind doesn't want them and have to kill them in  self defense--not just Israel
Black September - Wikipedia


----------



## Tilly

Hollie said:


> Hamas admits 5 of its gunmen among 16 Gazans killed in Friday’s border violence
> 
> *Gaza's ruling terror group claims operatives were taking part in 'popular events side-by-side with their people'; IDF warns against renewed violence as small protests persist*
> By AGENCIES and TOI STAFFToday, 4:36 pm  5
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Gaza's Hamas terrorist rulers released these images of members of its military wing who it acknowledged were among 16 Gazans it said were killed by Israeli fire during clashes along the security fence on Friday, March 30, 2018.
> 
> 
> Palestinian terror group Hamas, which rules the Gaza Strip, acknowledged on Saturday that five members of its military wing, the Izz ad-Din al-Qassam Brigades, were among 16 Gazans said killed on Friday during a massive march and protest along the security fence with Israel.
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe it’s just me but were the dead gee-had retrogrades above the product of generations of inbreeding?


No more ‘popular events’ (lol) for them!


----------



## Hollie

I would think that ultimately, Israel may need to deal with the promoters, instigators and enablers of Islamic terrorist violence and mayhem. 



Israel warns it could strike inside Gaza

*Gaza-Israel violence: Israel warns of action inside Gaza*

Israel's ambassador to the UN, Danny Danon, blamed the bloodshed on Hamas.

Later Gen Manelis said Friday's events were "not a protest demonstration" but "organised terrorist activity" by Hamas.

"If it continues, we shall have no choice but to respond inside the Gaza Strip against terrorist targets which we understand to be behind these events," he said according to AFP news agency.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot

Penelope said:


> Toddsterpatriot said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unarmed?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Did Israel start those fires.  No caption of pic, could be anywhere and anytime!
Click to expand...


Palestinians prepare for protests as funerals begin for 16 people | Daily Mail Online


----------



## RetiredGySgt

LA RAM FAN said:


> fncceo said:
> 
> 
> 
> mondoweiss.net ...
> 
> Not exactly an _unbiased _news source.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> except for Israeli apologists like you,even when video proof is provided of their atrocities of shooting palestine women and children somehow it is always the palestines fault.
Click to expand...

Ya notice how Palestinian supporters never complain when we have video of them lobbing rocks bombs and shooting at Israelis, then it is valiant freedom fighters right you fucking asshole?


----------



## Shusha

Humanity said:


> Ok, so we are talking about yesterday. Clearly you were unsure of whether in fact there was a bomb planted yesterday and, to be honest, I haven't seen any report of one being planted.


I am very careful to be sure of my facts before posting.  You seem to be misunderstanding my use of the term "possibly".  There HAVE been instances, including yesterday, of IEDs being planted on the fence, therefore, anyone approaching the fence may be considered a possible risk for this outcome.  



> Do you have proof of those approaching the fence carrying guns and bombs with an "intent" to do harm?Seriously?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There was no invasion of Israel as far as I could see? Those killed were the 'right side' of the fence no?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I didn't and never have argued against Israel using lethal force. My issue is that the IDF are firing across a border. What next? IDF crossing that border to disperse the protesters?
> 
> There is a very fine line and it seems that Israel crosses that line every time!
> 
> As for numbers of protesters, IDF have said 17,000 in total. Not sure where you get almost double that number.
Click to expand...


Hamas is quoting the larger number.  Likely inflated.

Okay, so we agree that Gazans should be able to hold a peaceful protest.  And we agree that Israel should be able to use lethal force, if necessary.  

You've managed to dodge my question, which was:  Under which conditions is Israel permitted (legally, morally) to use lethal force.  Let's start working on the grey areas.  

If Gazan (member of Hamas' military wing, young man, woman, child) plants an IED on the fence, may Israel use lethal force at a distance?

If a Gazan (member of Hamas' military wing, young man, woman, child) approaches the fence with an identifiable IED, may Israel use lethal force at a distance?

If a Gazan (member of Hamas' military wing, young man, woman, child) approaches the fence with suspicious or aggressive behaviour and appears to be carrying an IED, may Israel use lethal force at a distance?

If a Gazan (member of Hamas' military wing, young man, woman, child) approaches the fence with rocks or firebombs, may Israel use lethal force at a distance?

If a Gazan (member of Hamas' military wing, young man, woman, child) approaches the fence in an attempt to breach it, destroy it or cross it, may Israel use lethal force at a distance?

I could go on and on and on with various scenarios and we could, probably, work out a reasonable set of objective parameters under which Israel would be permitted to use lethal force. But it seems to me, on balance, Israel is already considering these things and, on balance, is successfully working within nuanced and correctly moral boundaries.  Thus no harm comes to a seven year old child who is sent by her parents to climb the fence (a disgusting violation of humanity to use a child in that way) while 100% of those killed were young men actively engaged in attempting to breach the border or use weapons against those Israelis on the Israeli side of the fence.  And a third of those dead belong to Hamas' military wing -- combatants without doubt).



> If you want to argue who started what and when... "The first to die was Omar Samour, 27 - a Palestinian farmer killed in Israeli shelling as he worked his land near Khan Younis early on Friday, before the protests began."


Wasn't he one of the ones who was shooting at Israelis?



What I don't understand about your POV, given that you are one of only two on this board that can argue the points with any level of objectivity at all, is why blame Israel for (perhaps inadequately) addressing a very volatile and difficult situation while not at LEAST concurrently addressing the responsibility for Gazans to hold PEACEFUL protests and not violent ones.  

You require Israel to carefully, quickly and with 100% accuracy judge whether any particular individual approaching the fence is a threat or not a threat and respond with an appropriate level of force at a distance.

Yet you seem to require NOTHING from the Gazans.  The Gazan people, in holding a peaceful protest, should be required to keep a respectful distance from the fence.  They should be required to leave their rocks and burning tires and firebombs and guns and IEDs at home.  (Or better yet, get rid of them altogether).  That is what a peaceful protest should be.  If they could hold a peaceful protest, an actually peaceful protest, there wouldn't be any dead.  

Why do you argue in support of Gazans misbehaving so badly?  And so clearly against not only the interests of peace in the region, but against their own best interests?


----------



## ILOVEISRAEL

Shusha said:


> Humanity said:
> 
> 
> 
> Ok, so we are talking about yesterday. Clearly you were unsure of whether in fact there was a bomb planted yesterday and, to be honest, I haven't seen any report of one being planted.
> 
> 
> 
> I am very careful to be sure of my facts before posting.  You seem to be misunderstanding my use of the term "possibly".  There HAVE been instances, including yesterday, of IEDs being planted on the fence, therefore, anyone approaching the fence may be considered a possible risk for this outcome.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Do you have proof of those approaching the fence carrying guns and bombs with an "intent" to do harm?Seriously?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There was no invasion of Israel as far as I could see? Those killed were the 'right side' of the fence no?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I didn't and never have argued against Israel using lethal force. My issue is that the IDF are firing across a border. What next? IDF crossing that border to disperse the protesters?
> 
> There is a very fine line and it seems that Israel crosses that line every time!
> 
> As for numbers of protesters, IDF have said 17,000 in total. Not sure where you get almost double that number.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Hamas is quoting the larger number.  Likely inflated.
> 
> Okay, so we agree that Gazans should be able to hold a peaceful protest.  And we agree that Israel should be able to use lethal force, if necessary.
> 
> You've managed to dodge my question, which was:  Under which conditions is Israel permitted (legally, morally) to use lethal force.  Let's start working on the grey areas.
> 
> If Gazan (member of Hamas' military wing, young man, woman, child) plants an IED on the fence, may Israel use lethal force at a distance?
> 
> If a Gazan (member of Hamas' military wing, young man, woman, child) approaches the fence with an identifiable IED, may Israel use lethal force at a distance?
> 
> If a Gazan (member of Hamas' military wing, young man, woman, child) approaches the fence with suspicious or aggressive behaviour and appears to be carrying an IED, may Israel use lethal force at a distance?
> 
> If a Gazan (member of Hamas' military wing, young man, woman, child) approaches the fence with rocks or firebombs, may Israel use lethal force at a distance?
> 
> If a Gazan (member of Hamas' military wing, young man, woman, child) approaches the fence in an attempt to breach it, destroy it or cross it, may Israel use lethal force at a distance?
> 
> I could go on and on and on with various scenarios and we could, probably, work out a reasonable set of objective parameters under which Israel would be permitted to use lethal force. But it seems to me, on balance, Israel is already considering these things and, on balance, is successfully working within nuanced and correctly moral boundaries.  Thus no harm comes to a seven year old child who is sent by her parents to climb the fence (a disgusting violation of humanity to use a child in that way) while 100% of those killed were young men actively engaged in attempting to breach the border or use weapons against those Israelis on the Israeli side of the fence.  And a third of those dead belong to Hamas' military wing -- combatants without doubt).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If you want to argue who started what and when... "The first to die was Omar Samour, 27 - a Palestinian farmer killed in Israeli shelling as he worked his land near Khan Younis early on Friday, before the protests began."
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Wasn't he one of the ones who was shooting at Israelis?
> 
> 
> 
> What I don't understand about your POV, given that you are one of only two on this board that can argue the points with any level of objectivity at all, is why blame Israel for (perhaps inadequately) addressing a very volatile and difficult situation while not at LEAST concurrently addressing the responsibility for Gazans to hold PEACEFUL protests and not violent ones.
> 
> You require Israel to carefully, quickly and with 100% accuracy judge whether any particular individual approaching the fence is a threat or not a threat and respond with an appropriate level of force at a distance.
> 
> Yet you seem to require NOTHING from the Gazans.  The Gazan people, in holding a peaceful protest, should be required to keep a respectful distance from the fence.  They should be required to leave their rocks and burning tires and firebombs and guns and IEDs at home.  (Or better yet, get rid of them altogether).  That is what a peaceful protest should be.  If they could hold a peaceful protest, an actually peaceful protest, there wouldn't be any dead.
> 
> Why do you argue in support of Gazans misbehaving so badly?  And so clearly against not only the interests of peace in the region, but against their own best interests?
Click to expand...


Just ONE more reason for no “ Right of Return” What is to stop these animals from starting a Civil War and initiating Violence within the “ 67 Borders?”


----------



## Shusha

Footnote to my post above.  Israel claims 10 of the 16 killed yesterday were Hamas (or other organization) military wing.


----------



## Shusha

ILOVEISRAEL said:


> Just ONE more reason for no “ Right of Return” What is to stop these animals from starting a Civil War and initiating Violence within the “ 67 Borders?”



It is already a problem within Israel.  There will not be a mass return by Arab Palestinians to Israel.  Israel will never permit it to happen.  And Israel holds all the cards here.   (Though there can, and should be, a return to a separate state of Palestine).


----------



## RetiredGySgt

The pals don't just THROW rocks they use heavy duty slings to lob them in those are weapons of war and it is just as if they were shooting a firearm. That is most assuredly not the definition of unarmed. Also they throw petrol bombs again molotov cocktails weapons of war.


----------



## Penelope

Hollie said:


> Hamas admits 5 of its gunmen among 16 Gazans killed in Friday’s border violence
> 
> *Gaza's ruling terror group claims operatives were taking part in 'popular events side-by-side with their people'; IDF warns against renewed violence as small protests persist*
> By AGENCIES and TOI STAFFToday, 4:36 pm  5
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Gaza's Hamas terrorist rulers released these images of members of its military wing who it acknowledged were among 16 Gazans it said were killed by Israeli fire during clashes along the security fence on Friday, March 30, 2018.
> 
> 
> Palestinian terror group Hamas, which rules the Gaza Strip, acknowledged on Saturday that five members of its military wing, the Izz ad-Din al-Qassam Brigades, were among 16 Gazans said killed on Friday during a massive march and protest along the security fence with Israel.
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe it’s just me but were the dead gee-had retrogrades above the product of generations of inbreeding?



Why show us a picture, they look as scary as the IDF.


----------



## Hollie

Penelope said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hamas admits 5 of its gunmen among 16 Gazans killed in Friday’s border violence
> 
> *Gaza's ruling terror group claims operatives were taking part in 'popular events side-by-side with their people'; IDF warns against renewed violence as small protests persist*
> By AGENCIES and TOI STAFFToday, 4:36 pm  5
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Gaza's Hamas terrorist rulers released these images of members of its military wing who it acknowledged were among 16 Gazans it said were killed by Israeli fire during clashes along the security fence on Friday, March 30, 2018.
> 
> 
> Palestinian terror group Hamas, which rules the Gaza Strip, acknowledged on Saturday that five members of its military wing, the Izz ad-Din al-Qassam Brigades, were among 16 Gazans said killed on Friday during a massive march and protest along the security fence with Israel.
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe it’s just me but were the dead gee-had retrogrades above the product of generations of inbreeding?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Why show us a picture, they look as scary as the IDF.
Click to expand...


I’m curious to know why people like you are feigning surprise at violence that occurs when Islamics gather for the purpose of rioting.


----------



## RetiredGySgt

Penelope said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hamas admits 5 of its gunmen among 16 Gazans killed in Friday’s border violence
> 
> *Gaza's ruling terror group claims operatives were taking part in 'popular events side-by-side with their people'; IDF warns against renewed violence as small protests persist*
> By AGENCIES and TOI STAFFToday, 4:36 pm  5
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Gaza's Hamas terrorist rulers released these images of members of its military wing who it acknowledged were among 16 Gazans it said were killed by Israeli fire during clashes along the security fence on Friday, March 30, 2018.
> 
> 
> Palestinian terror group Hamas, which rules the Gaza Strip, acknowledged on Saturday that five members of its military wing, the Izz ad-Din al-Qassam Brigades, were among 16 Gazans said killed on Friday during a massive march and protest along the security fence with Israel.
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe it’s just me but were the dead gee-had retrogrades above the product of generations of inbreeding?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Why show us a picture, they look as scary as the IDF.
Click to expand...

You have not answered why it is ok for Pals to attack Israelis with weapons of war but not ok for the Israelis to defend themselves with lethal force?


----------



## eagle1462010

The IDF fired mainly rubber bullets and tear gas to break up the riots.......

Only thowe from Hamas were killed after they were id'd.............


----------



## ILOVEISRAEL

RetiredGySgt said:


> Penelope said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hamas admits 5 of its gunmen among 16 Gazans killed in Friday’s border violence
> 
> *Gaza's ruling terror group claims operatives were taking part in 'popular events side-by-side with their people'; IDF warns against renewed violence as small protests persist*
> By AGENCIES and TOI STAFFToday, 4:36 pm  5
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Gaza's Hamas terrorist rulers released these images of members of its military wing who it acknowledged were among 16 Gazans it said were killed by Israeli fire during clashes along the security fence on Friday, March 30, 2018.
> 
> 
> Palestinian terror group Hamas, which rules the Gaza Strip, acknowledged on Saturday that five members of its military wing, the Izz ad-Din al-Qassam Brigades, were among 16 Gazans said killed on Friday during a massive march and protest along the security fence with Israel.
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe it’s just me but were the dead gee-had retrogrades above the product of generations of inbreeding?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Why show us a picture, they look as scary as the IDF.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You have not answered why it is ok for Pals to attack Israelis with weapons of war but not ok for the Israelis to defend themselves with lethal force?
Click to expand...


You’re not going to get a answer. Consider the source


----------



## Tijn Von Ingersleben

ILOVEISRAEL said:


> Another Jew Hater who ignores links of Christian Anti Jewish Hate.


IDK WTF that means.



ILOVEISRAEL said:


> What do you mean by not “ sharing” culture, religion or language?


Israel is a Jewish State created for Jews...speaking Hebrew. None of those are even remotely close to the US.



ILOVEISRAEL said:


> Do you feel that way about Muslims, Indians, Chinese, Japanese, etc. people who come here, it’s OK for Hispanics to speak their language, Muslims to speak theirs, Indians, Chinese , etc. etc. to speak theirs but not the Jews?



This is the US...not Israel..if you want a Jewish state then go to Israel...the same applies to all groups you listed. Americans should care first and foremost about AMERICA...not Israel, China or wherever else. If your priorities lay elsewhere...go there and help there.



ILOVEISRAEL said:


> Regarding “ Religion” Jews should convert to Christianity but not other groups? Typical Jew Hating “ Christian” that had gone on for over 2000 years.


No one really care what your religion is...go there and be around your people if it is your top priority...in the US you should be American first all other nations are second...full stop.


----------



## RetiredGySgt

Tijn Von Ingersleben said:


> ILOVEISRAEL said:
> 
> 
> 
> Another Jew Hater who ignores links of Christian Anti Jewish Hate.
> 
> 
> 
> IDK WTF that means.
> 
> 
> 
> ILOVEISRAEL said:
> 
> 
> 
> What do you mean by not “ sharing” culture, religion or language?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Israel is a Jewish State created for Jews...speaking Hebrew. None of those are even remotely close to the US.
> 
> 
> 
> ILOVEISRAEL said:
> 
> 
> 
> Do you feel that way about Muslims, Indians, Chinese, Japanese, etc. people who come here, it’s OK for Hispanics to speak their language, Muslims to speak theirs, Indians, Chinese , etc. etc. to speak theirs but not the Jews?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> This is the US...not Israel..if you want a Jewish state then go to Israel...the same applies to all groups you listed. Americans should care first and foremost about AMERICA...not Israel, China or wherever else. If your priorities lay elsewhere...go there and help there.
> 
> 
> 
> ILOVEISRAEL said:
> 
> 
> 
> Regarding “ Religion” Jews should convert to Christianity but not other groups? Typical Jew Hating “ Christian” that had gone on for over 2000 years.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> No one really care what your religion is...go there and be around your people if it is your top priority...in the US you should be American first all other nations are second...full stop.
Click to expand...

So you think all the Muslims in this Country that want a Muslim State here should go home? Or is that different? Israel is an ALLY we support our allies.


----------



## Tijn Von Ingersleben

RetiredGySgt said:


> Tijn Von Ingersleben said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ILOVEISRAEL said:
> 
> 
> 
> Another Jew Hater who ignores links of Christian Anti Jewish Hate.
> 
> 
> 
> IDK WTF that means.
> 
> 
> 
> ILOVEISRAEL said:
> 
> 
> 
> What do you mean by not “ sharing” culture, religion or language?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Israel is a Jewish State created for Jews...speaking Hebrew. None of those are even remotely close to the US.
> 
> 
> 
> ILOVEISRAEL said:
> 
> 
> 
> Do you feel that way about Muslims, Indians, Chinese, Japanese, etc. people who come here, it’s OK for Hispanics to speak their language, Muslims to speak theirs, Indians, Chinese , etc. etc. to speak theirs but not the Jews?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> This is the US...not Israel..if you want a Jewish state then go to Israel...the same applies to all groups you listed. Americans should care first and foremost about AMERICA...not Israel, China or wherever else. If your priorities lay elsewhere...go there and help there.
> 
> 
> 
> ILOVEISRAEL said:
> 
> 
> 
> Regarding “ Religion” Jews should convert to Christianity but not other groups? Typical Jew Hating “ Christian” that had gone on for over 2000 years.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> No one really care what your religion is...go there and be around your people if it is your top priority...in the US you should be American first all other nations are second...full stop.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> So you think all the Muslims in this Country that want a Muslim State here should go home? Or is that different? Israel is an ALLY we support our allies.
Click to expand...

yes...the US is secular per our Constitution.


----------



## RoccoR

RE:  Israeli forces shoot unarmed protesters from across Gaza security fence, killing at least 15
※→  Tijn Von Ingersleben, et al,

I think you have slipped wildly off the mark here...



Tijn Von Ingersleben said:


> This is the US...not Israel..if you want a Jewish state then go to Israel...the same applies to all groups you listed. Americans should care first and foremost about AMERICA...not Israel, China or wherever else. If your priorities lay elsewhere...go there and help there.


*(COMMENT)*

Much of the discussion here, is about two issues:

•  The Israeli Core Issue:  This is based on the two-way respect for the principle of equal rights and right to self-determination for the Jewish peoples.

•  The US Foreign Policy Issue:  There is no question that the US has several national security interests in the region.  And the nation that is must like America, and as sophisticated America, of all 22 nations in the Middle East gand Gulf Coast Region is Israel.  Having said that, Armica see a moral and ethical obligation to extend its protection over Israel, such that it is a secure safe haven from Arab, European, and African use of the color of law against a culture that has politically targeted for centuries.​
I am not sure if anyone is advocating the subordination of American patriotism and nationalism to Israel.  That is, in fact, an emotional hot button that anti-Zionist and antisemitic ⇒ propagandist use to insert a wedge between the Americans and the Israelis.  The Israelis would never advocate Americans shift in loyalty.  They know that that would actually have the opposite effect.  That doesn't prevent Arab Palestinians from trying to chip away at the US-Israeli Alliance.



Tijn Von Ingersleben said:


> No one really cares what your religion is...go there and be around your people if it is your top priority...in the US you should be American first all other nations are second...full stop.


*(COMMENT)*

I tend to agree that, in the greater scheme of things, religion is not a hot button item in the US.  Of course, loyalty to America is that of the highest order.  But that does not mean that there cannot be room for a strong bond with other nations. This is particularly true in the case of the Five-Eyes (FVEY)_(Australia, Canada, New Zealand, the United Kingdom, and the United States)_ which demonstrates one of the very strong alliances; which America maintains with the Commonwealth of Nations.

There are many Anti-American activists that really enjoy pushing social, economic, theological, spiritual, scientific or legal *issues* which have become sharp political *issues* that bucked-up talk radio programs.

Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## Tijn Von Ingersleben

RoccoR said:


> I am not sure if anyone is advocating the subordination of American patriotism and nationalism to Israel.


Then why do people throw 'anti-Semite' at those who oppose funding Israel to the tune of $3B/yr? Further, I firmly believe that the $235B that we have given to the state of Israel over the past 60 years is in itself a form of subordination by way of tribute. 
No single country has received more. As a matter of fact its many times more than we have given to the entire continent of Africa over the same period of time. A time when Israel has gone from fledgling state to a first  world nation which exports billions in weapons and technology per year. 
Don't you find that a bit odd? 



RoccoR said:


> The Israelis would never advocate Americans shift in loyalty.


They don't need to...we are funding them and rubber stamping any action they take with regard to UN sanction or international outcry. If you are getting everything you want why would you question anything? Take any relationship in your life...professional or private and apply complete immunity to them.
Would you question?



RoccoR said:


> But that does not mean that there cannot be room for a strong bond with other nations.


I agree...so why are we paying? Do we pay the Brits? Canadians? 
The crux of my argument is the funding of a first world state by another to the tune of $35B over ten years. No one ever questions this, why?
Don't you think that is weird? Don't you think that is odd? 

So...my initial point stands...let them be, cut the purse strings and if they are true friends they will be there like the others. Other than that...I and many other Americans simply could not care less about Israel as a state. We CARE about the hundreds of billions that have been given. It needs to stop.


----------



## Hossfly

Tijn Von Ingersleben said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> 
> I am not sure if anyone is advocating the subordination of American patriotism and nationalism to Israel.
> 
> 
> 
> Then why do people throw 'anti-Semite' at those who oppose funding Israel to the tune of $3B/yr? Further, I firmly believe that the $235B that we have given to the state of Israel over the past 60 years is in itself a form of subordination by way of tribute.
> No single country has received more. As a matter of fact its many times more than we have given to the entire continent of Africa over the same period of time. A time when Israel has gone from fledgling state to a first  world nation which exports billions in weapons and technology per year.
> Don't you find that a bit odd?
> 
> 
> 
> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> 
> The Israelis would never advocate Americans shift in loyalty.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> They don't need to...we are funding them and rubber stamping any action they take with regard to UN sanction or international outcry. If you are getting everything you want why would you question anything? Take any relationship in your life...professional or private and apply complete immunity to them.
> Would you question?
> 
> 
> 
> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> 
> But that does not mean that there cannot be room for a strong bond with other nations.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I agree...so why are we paying? Do we pay the Brits? Canadians?
> The crux of my argument is the funding of a first world state by another to the tune of $35B over ten years. No one ever questions this, why?
> Don't you think that is weird? Don't you think that is odd?
> 
> So...my initial point stands...let them be, cut the purse strings and if they are true friends they will be there like the others. Other than that...I and many other Americans simply could not care less about Israel as a state. We CARE about the hundreds of billions that have been given. It needs to stop.
Click to expand...


----------



## Mindful

Tijn Von Ingersleben said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> 
> I am not sure if anyone is advocating the subordination of American patriotism and nationalism to Israel.
> 
> 
> 
> Then why do people throw 'anti-Semite' at those who oppose funding Israel to the tune of $3B/yr? Further, I firmly believe that the $235B that we have given to the state of Israel over the past 60 years is in itself a form of subordination by way of tribute.
> No single country has received more. As a matter of fact its many times more than we have given to the entire continent of Africa over the same period of time. A time when Israel has gone from fledgling state to a first  world nation which exports billions in weapons and technology per year.
> Don't you find that a bit odd?
> 
> 
> 
> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> 
> The Israelis would never advocate Americans shift in loyalty.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> They don't need to...we are funding them and rubber stamping any action they take with regard to UN sanction or international outcry. If you are getting everything you want why would you question anything? Take any relationship in your life...professional or private and apply complete immunity to them.
> Would you question?
> 
> 
> 
> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> 
> But that does not mean that there cannot be room for a strong bond with other nations.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I agree...so why are we paying? Do we pay the Brits? Canadians?
> The crux of my argument is the funding of a first world state by another to the tune of $35B over ten years. No one ever questions this, why?
> Don't you think that is weird? Don't you think that is odd?
> 
> So...my initial point stands...let them be, cut the purse strings and if they are true friends they will be there like the others. Other than that...I and many other Americans simply could not care less about Israel as a state. We CARE about the hundreds of billions that have been given. It needs to stop.
Click to expand...


Given?

Ever heard of loan guarantees, and how that works?


----------



## Tijn Von Ingersleben

Mindful said:


> Tijn Von Ingersleben said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> 
> I am not sure if anyone is advocating the subordination of American patriotism and nationalism to Israel.
> 
> 
> 
> Then why do people throw 'anti-Semite' at those who oppose funding Israel to the tune of $3B/yr? Further, I firmly believe that the $235B that we have given to the state of Israel over the past 60 years is in itself a form of subordination by way of tribute.
> No single country has received more. As a matter of fact its many times more than we have given to the entire continent of Africa over the same period of time. A time when Israel has gone from fledgling state to a first  world nation which exports billions in weapons and technology per year.
> Don't you find that a bit odd?
> 
> 
> 
> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> 
> The Israelis would never advocate Americans shift in loyalty.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> They don't need to...we are funding them and rubber stamping any action they take with regard to UN sanction or international outcry. If you are getting everything you want why would you question anything? Take any relationship in your life...professional or private and apply complete immunity to them.
> Would you question?
> 
> 
> 
> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> 
> But that does not mean that there cannot be room for a strong bond with other nations.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I agree...so why are we paying? Do we pay the Brits? Canadians?
> The crux of my argument is the funding of a first world state by another to the tune of $35B over ten years. No one ever questions this, why?
> Don't you think that is weird? Don't you think that is odd?
> 
> So...my initial point stands...let them be, cut the purse strings and if they are true friends they will be there like the others. Other than that...I and many other Americans simply could not care less about Israel as a state. We CARE about the hundreds of billions that have been given. It needs to stop.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Given?
> 
> Ever heard of loan guarantees, and how that works?
Click to expand...

We do not loan money to Israel...we aid them...e.g. no payback.
...and I was wrong..it's $38B...not $35B
U.S., Israel sign historic 10-year, $38-billion military aid deal


----------



## Tijn Von Ingersleben

Hossfly said:


> Tijn Von Ingersleben said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> 
> I am not sure if anyone is advocating the subordination of American patriotism and nationalism to Israel.
> 
> 
> 
> Then why do people throw 'anti-Semite' at those who oppose funding Israel to the tune of $3B/yr? Further, I firmly believe that the $235B that we have given to the state of Israel over the past 60 years is in itself a form of subordination by way of tribute.
> No single country has received more. As a matter of fact its many times more than we have given to the entire continent of Africa over the same period of time. A time when Israel has gone from fledgling state to a first  world nation which exports billions in weapons and technology per year.
> Don't you find that a bit odd?
> 
> 
> 
> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> 
> The Israelis would never advocate Americans shift in loyalty.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> They don't need to...we are funding them and rubber stamping any action they take with regard to UN sanction or international outcry. If you are getting everything you want why would you question anything? Take any relationship in your life...professional or private and apply complete immunity to them.
> Would you question?
> 
> 
> 
> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> 
> But that does not mean that there cannot be room for a strong bond with other nations.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I agree...so why are we paying? Do we pay the Brits? Canadians?
> The crux of my argument is the funding of a first world state by another to the tune of $35B over ten years. No one ever questions this, why?
> Don't you think that is weird? Don't you think that is odd?
> 
> So...my initial point stands...let them be, cut the purse strings and if they are true friends they will be there like the others. Other than that...I and many other Americans simply could not care less about Israel as a state. We CARE about the hundreds of billions that have been given. It needs to stop.
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...

I have...I have...but if you're puttin it in my butt...I reserve the right to tell you how much it hurts.


----------



## Mindful

Tijn Von Ingersleben said:


> Mindful said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tijn Von Ingersleben said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> 
> I am not sure if anyone is advocating the subordination of American patriotism and nationalism to Israel.
> 
> 
> 
> Then why do people throw 'anti-Semite' at those who oppose funding Israel to the tune of $3B/yr? Further, I firmly believe that the $235B that we have given to the state of Israel over the past 60 years is in itself a form of subordination by way of tribute.
> No single country has received more. As a matter of fact its many times more than we have given to the entire continent of Africa over the same period of time. A time when Israel has gone from fledgling state to a first  world nation which exports billions in weapons and technology per year.
> Don't you find that a bit odd?
> 
> 
> 
> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> 
> The Israelis would never advocate Americans shift in loyalty.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> They don't need to...we are funding them and rubber stamping any action they take with regard to UN sanction or international outcry. If you are getting everything you want why would you question anything? Take any relationship in your life...professional or private and apply complete immunity to them.
> Would you question?
> 
> 
> 
> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> 
> But that does not mean that there cannot be room for a strong bond with other nations.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I agree...so why are we paying? Do we pay the Brits? Canadians?
> The crux of my argument is the funding of a first world state by another to the tune of $35B over ten years. No one ever questions this, why?
> Don't you think that is weird? Don't you think that is odd?
> 
> So...my initial point stands...let them be, cut the purse strings and if they are true friends they will be there like the others. Other than that...I and many other Americans simply could not care less about Israel as a state. We CARE about the hundreds of billions that have been given. It needs to stop.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Given?
> 
> Ever heard of loan guarantees, and how that works?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> We do not loan money to Israel...we aid them...e.g. no payback.
> ...and I was wrong..it's $38B...not $35B
> U.S., Israel sign historic 10-year, $38-billion military aid deal
Click to expand...


Loan guarantees to Israel are just another way that the United States financially helps the Jewish state, but this is done without even spending one dollar. In 1992, Congress and President Bush authorized $10 in guarantees to Israel and, in 2003, a new set of loan guarantees - for $9 billion - were put in place to serve until 2012. This guarantee was extended to last until 2019.

Guarantees are not grants — not one penny of U.S. government funds are transferred to Israel. The U.S. simply cosigns loans for Israel that give bankers confidence to lend Israel money at more favorable terms: lower interest rates and longer repayment periods — as much as 30 years instead of only five to seven. These loan guarantees have no effect on domestic programs or guarantees. Moreover, they have no impact on U.S. taxpayers unless Israel were to default on its loans, something it has never done. In addition, much of the money Israel borrows is spent in the United States to purchase American goods.

From Jewishvirtuallibrary


----------



## Tijn Von Ingersleben

Mindful said:


> Tijn Von Ingersleben said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mindful said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tijn Von Ingersleben said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> 
> I am not sure if anyone is advocating the subordination of American patriotism and nationalism to Israel.
> 
> 
> 
> Then why do people throw 'anti-Semite' at those who oppose funding Israel to the tune of $3B/yr? Further, I firmly believe that the $235B that we have given to the state of Israel over the past 60 years is in itself a form of subordination by way of tribute.
> No single country has received more. As a matter of fact its many times more than we have given to the entire continent of Africa over the same period of time. A time when Israel has gone from fledgling state to a first  world nation which exports billions in weapons and technology per year.
> Don't you find that a bit odd?
> 
> 
> 
> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> 
> The Israelis would never advocate Americans shift in loyalty.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> They don't need to...we are funding them and rubber stamping any action they take with regard to UN sanction or international outcry. If you are getting everything you want why would you question anything? Take any relationship in your life...professional or private and apply complete immunity to them.
> Would you question?
> 
> 
> 
> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> 
> But that does not mean that there cannot be room for a strong bond with other nations.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I agree...so why are we paying? Do we pay the Brits? Canadians?
> The crux of my argument is the funding of a first world state by another to the tune of $35B over ten years. No one ever questions this, why?
> Don't you think that is weird? Don't you think that is odd?
> 
> So...my initial point stands...let them be, cut the purse strings and if they are true friends they will be there like the others. Other than that...I and many other Americans simply could not care less about Israel as a state. We CARE about the hundreds of billions that have been given. It needs to stop.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Given?
> 
> Ever heard of loan guarantees, and how that works?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> We do not loan money to Israel...we aid them...e.g. no payback.
> ...and I was wrong..it's $38B...not $35B
> U.S., Israel sign historic 10-year, $38-billion military aid deal
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Loan guarantees to Israel are just another way that the United States financially helps the Jewish state, but this is done without even spending one dollar. In 1992, Congress and President Bush authorized $10 in guarantees to Israel and, in 2003, a new set of loan guarantees - for $9 billion - were put in place to serve until 2012. This guarantee was extended to last until 2019.
> 
> Guarantees are not grants — not one penny of U.S. government funds are transferred to Israel. The U.S. simply cosigns loans for Israel that give bankers confidence to lend Israel money at more favorable terms: lower interest rates and longer repayment periods — as much as 30 years instead of only five to seven. These loan guarantees have no effect on domestic programs or guarantees. Moreover, they have no impact on U.S. taxpayers unless Israel were to default on its loans, something it has never done. In addition, much of the money Israel borrows is spent in the United States to purchase American goods.
> 
> From Jewishvirtuallibrary
Click to expand...

Ok..fair play...
Israel does loan money. Guess what..ALL Israeli loan debt has been forgiven...every time. Guess what else that means? Yeap..US taxpayers foot the bill...every time.

What about the $38B aid package? Does that affect the US taxpayer directly? Yes...it does. So, not only are US taxpayers giving aid...they are forgiving loan debt as well...yeah..kinda doubles...triples those numbers doesn't it?
Yes Veronica...you are a sucker. However, don't fret, as you are not alone.

_"Since 1992, the U.S. has offered Israel an additional $2 billion annually in loan guarantees. Congressional researchers have disclosed that between 1974 and 1989, $16.4 billion in U.S. military loans were converted to grants and that this was the understanding from the beginning. Indeed, all past U.S. loans to Israel have eventually been forgiven by Congress, which has undoubtedly helped Israel's often-touted claim that they have never defaulted on a U.S. government loan."_
U.S. Financial Aid To Israel: Congress & U.S. Aid to Israel - WRMEA


----------



## RoccoR

RE:  Israeli forces shoot unarmed protesters from across Gaza security fence, killing at least 15
※→  Tijn Von Ingersleben, et al,


_“People almost invariably arrive at their beliefs
not on the basis of proof 
but on the basis of what they find attractive.” _
― _Blaise Pascal_, _De l'art de persuader *(Of the Art of Persuading)*_ ​
Of course, there are people that are the ∆x components...  David Gal and Derek Rucker from Northwestern University have found that when people’s confidence in their beliefs is shaken, they become _stronger _advocates for those beliefs.   The more you try to change their minds, the more rigid they become.  And there are very few topic in which that axiom is observed than in topics on the Israeli-Arab conflict in the Middle East. 



Tijn Von Ingersleben said:


> Then why do people throw 'anti-Semite' at those who oppose funding Israel to the tune of $3B/yr? Further, I firmly believe that the $235B that we have given to the state of Israel over the past 60 years is in itself a form of subordination by way of tribute.
> No single country has received more. As a matter of fact its many times more than we have given to the entire continent of Africa over the same period of time. A time when Israel has gone from fledgling state to a first world nation which exports billions in weapons and technology per year.
> Don't you find that a bit odd?


*(COMMENT)*

This is an argument on who gets the bigger slice of the pie, not so much as who gets a slice of the pie.  And as for Africa, there are (maybe) ≈ 50 elements in Africa that _the *USAID* gives_ aid to...

Yes, in any outlay like military aid, there must be a first.  If it was Israel _(if we dropped then from the equation) then the next country in line would be Egypt (an Arab State in Africa)_ --- a member of the Arab League.  American military aid to Egypt, which has "totaled over $40 billion since the signing of the Camp David peace accords in 1979." _(See:   March 28, 2018 | William Hartung || __Time to Rethink U.S. Military Aid to Egypt ||)_  Remember, Egypt was a Russian client state until after the 1973 Surprise attack on Yom Kipper, which ended in the Egyptian 3rd Army being surrounded and cut-off from Cairo.

Yes, the US gives Military Aid to all the Arab League Member Nations involved in the military assault on Israel in 1948; and more _(most every member of the Arab League)_.  



Tijn Von Ingersleben said:


> They don't need to...we are funding them and rubber stamping any action they take with regard to UN sanction or international outcry. If you are getting everything you want why would you question anything? Take any relationship in your life...professional or private and apply complete immunity to them.
> Would you question?


*(COMMENT)*

There is a difference between:

•  An America that provides such aid in the Middle East to protect a lone Republic from the abuses of an Arab Majority.
*ψ*   AND THAT WHICH IS   *ψ*​•  An America that is under an obligation and is "subordination by way of tribute."​
The US is not providing assistance in that way at all, no coercion at all.  The State of Israel ranks 18th in the list of nation relative to human development.  That is higher than any of the "oil rich" Arab League and Persian Gulf States. What is wrong with the "oil rich" states that they cannot manage to keep up with Israel.  Remember, the common thread here is the Arab Culture compared to the lone Jewish Culture.



Tijn Von Ingersleben said:


> I agree...so why are we paying? Do we pay the Brits? Canadians?
> The crux of my argument is the funding of a first world state by another to the tune of $35B over ten years. No one ever questions this, why?
> Don't you think that is weird? Don't you think that is odd?


*(COMMENT)*

We are NOT paying; as in making a credit installment.  We are investing in an Allied Regional Power.

The amount the US gives to Israel is reviewed all the time.  It is questioned by people like you all the time.

BTW, we do give aid to members of the Commonwealth:



Bureau of European and Eurasian Affairs || Fact Sheet || February 26 said:


> So...my initial point stands...let them be, cut the purse strings and if they are true friends they will be there like the others. Other than that...I and many other Americans simply could not care less about Israel as a state. We CARE about the hundreds of billions that have been given. It needs to stop.


*(COMMENT)*

Yes...  That is a legitimate political position to put forth...  It is a form of Isolationism.  And many are suggesting approaches very similar.  I have, on occasion, suggested a re-evaluation of military and non-military aid.  

Whether "we care" or not is an ethical issue.  What we allow to happen as a result of our isolationism is a moral issue.   How we, as Americans, justify our withdraw is a matter of honesty, integrity, and values. 


Most Respectfully,
R​


----------



## Tijn Von Ingersleben

RoccoR said:


> This is an argument on who gets the bigger slice of the pie, not so much as who gets a slice of the pie. And as for Africa, there are (maybe) ≈ 50 elements in Africa that _the *USAID* gives_ aid to..


Hey homeboy...you can call it aid...grants...USAID... or Scooby Snacks...guess where alll that comes from...That's right buddy...US Taxpayers.
My POINT is that Israel...is getting a ridiculous amount of U. S. T a x p a y e r dollars.

but but but...this pile here is from USAID....and this pile here is from Defense Spending... and this pile...don't church it up son.



RoccoR said:


> Yes, the US gives Military Aid to all the Arab League Member Nations involved in the military assault on Israel in 1948; and more _(most every member of the Arab League)_.



Yeap...horseshit too. Billions to anyone is absurd. This should be illegalized period. The only way that I could see us giving billions in aid militarily is if one of our close allies were locked in war and COULD NOT afford to arm themselves...MAYBE.



RoccoR said:


> • An America that provides such aid in the Middle East to protect a lone Republic from the abuses of an Arab Majority.



 Maybe in 1960 this was accurate...hardly the case for the last 40 years. Israel is a first world nuclear power with technological capes equal to our own. Cut the purse strings. Further, Israel not only has peace but cooperation treaties with the Egyptians and the Jordanians....since the 1980's! This is all old propaganda.



RoccoR said:


> We are NOT paying; as in making a credit installment. We are investing in an Allied Regional Power.



"But honey...that hooker was helping me find my keys!"

Stop, Money works for countries no different than it does for people...quid pro quo.
"Investing in an Allied Regional Power"...you sound like one of those shithead generals who cycle through the MAJCOM's every year.




RoccoR said:


> What we allow to happen as a result of our isolationism is a moral issue.


Israel is a nuclear powered nation...F35's...Merhaba Tanks...billion dollar defense industry...etc. 1960 is calling...it want's it's propaganda back.

I will close with this...non-interventionist policies can be successful. We just have to get back to our roots.
Our entire foreign policy system is a complete scam and the ultimate victim is the very person that it is designed to protect and serve...the US Taxpayer. 
We have gone from free commerce and resisting foreign entanglement to globalization and paying country A to not attack country B.
What a mess.


----------



## Shusha

Humanity, 

Yesterday, you wrote:



Humanity said:


> There is a very fine line and it seems that Israel crosses that line every time!



Now that more evidence has come to light, in terms of the lethal nature of weapons used against Israel and the fact that the dead are all men of military age who acted specifically with violent means against Israel AND Hamas' statement that the intent of the March is to breach the fence and that "not one inch of Palestine" shall be under Jewish sovereignty, where is your condemnation of Arab Palestinians "crossing the line", both literally and figuratively?  Where is your holding Arab Palestinians to accountability?  Where is your insisting that Arab Palestinians have restraint?  And respect international law?  Where is your call for Hamas to stand down?  Where is your demand that Israel's self-determination and sovereignty be respected?


----------



## RoccoR

RE:  Palestine Today
※→ et al,

For the last half-century, we all have seen the recurring divisiveness of the Hostile Arab Palestinian (HoAP) use cowardly practices.Different variations on the basics; yet oddly with a common frame.

To promote, by all means of publicity and propaganda available to them, friendly relations among nations based upon the Purposes and Principles of the Charter;

Calls upon all States to adopt such measures as may be necessary and appropriate and in accordance with their obligations under international law to:

a)  Prohibit by law incitement to commit a terrorist act or acts;
b)  Prevent such conduct;
c)   Deny safe haven to any persons with respect to whom there is credible
and relevant information giving serious reasons for considering that they have been
guilty of such conduct;
​*(OBSERVATION)*

Arab Palestinians operated largely on the same soft targets as most psychopaths:

1972 Summer Olympic Massacre. the 1978 Coastal Road Massacre.
The 1974 Qiryat Shemona attacks,  terrorists on residential, building.
The attack on the Italian cruise ship Achille Lauro, when they killed a Jewish Passenger in a wheelchair and threw him overboard.
The many airline hijackings, bombing on a bus, in market places, amusement parks, beaches and shores tourist attractions,
Or the attacks right up and to the present.
There were hostages takings  —- at places like the children's dormitory, the bombing at a children’s clothing market,  stabbings, shootings, boobytrapped bus stops, grenade attack, crowded restaurants, event receptions,  movie theaters and cinemas, → and the list goes on.  Arab Palestinian violence includes attacks at holy sites like that of the Tomb of the Patriarchs.

The Declaration on Measures to Eliminate International Terrorism, annexed to General Assembly resolution 49/60 of 9 December 1994, in which, inter alia, declares *⇒*

"Criminal acts intended or calculated to provoke a state of terror in the general public, a group of persons or particular persons for political purposes are in any circumstance unjustifiable, whatever the considerations of a political, philosophical, ideological, racial, ethnic, religious or any other nature that may be invoked to justify them;"​*(COMMENT)*

As you can see, I think that the Hostile Arab Palestinian (HoAP) is attempting to raise sympathy for their cause by deliberately and with premeditation, set the conditions to assemble, incite and direct the  Protestors to breach the security barrier and then penetrate Israeli Sovereignty.

✪  This violates the use of civilians as a shield for the cover and concealment in the military advance into Israel.

■  Rule 23:  Location of Military Objective outside Densely Populated Areas
■  Rule 24:  Removal of Civilians and Civilian Objects from the vicinity of Military Objectives
■  Rule 97:  Human Shields​
✪  This violates the Basic Rules of Incitement:

■  A/RES/2/110 - Against Propaganda and the Inciters of a New War
■  A/RES/49/60 - Measures to Eliminate International Terrorism
■  S/RES/1624 (2005)  Counter Terrorism UNSC 1624 (Incitement)​
✪  This is a Government supported action in violation of:

Charter of the United Nations --- Chapter I • *PURPOSES AND PRINCIPLES • Paragraph 2(4)*
All Members shall refrain in their international relations from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of any state, or in any other manner inconsistent with the Purposes of the United Nations.​
I would think it would be very damned obvious that the protest was organized by the Asymmetric instigators to create the conditions for a violent confrontation that the HoAP could not otherwise achieve.

The protesters appear to be driven by elements within the protest crowd to provoke an Israeli response by the Border Police --- being herded and urged or incited to commit to induce a *violent* confrontation; with the intent _(as members of the protest said themselves in media interviews)_ to breach Israeli Sovereignty.  The objective:  to recover territory lost in the 1948 Israeli War of Independence.

Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## P F Tinmore

RoccoR said:


> Arab Palestinians operated largely on the same soft targets as most psychopaths:


Do you mean like Israel's ethnic cleansing of hundreds of unarmed Palestinian farm villages in 1948?


----------



## P F Tinmore

RoccoR said:


> The objective: to recover territory lost in the 1948 Israeli War of Independence.


Independence from what?

The Palestinians lost a war in 1948?


----------



## P F Tinmore

RoccoR said:


> RE:  Palestine Today
> ※→ et al,
> 
> For the last half-century, we all have seen the recurring divisiveness of the Hostile Arab Palestinian (HoAP) use cowardly practices.Different variations on the basics; yet oddly with a common frame.
> 
> To promote, by all means of publicity and propaganda available to them, friendly relations among nations based upon the Purposes and Principles of the Charter;
> 
> Calls upon all States to adopt such measures as may be necessary and appropriate and in accordance with their obligations under international law to:
> 
> a)  Prohibit by law incitement to commit a terrorist act or acts;
> b)  Prevent such conduct;
> c)   Deny safe haven to any persons with respect to whom there is credible
> and relevant information giving serious reasons for considering that they have been
> guilty of such conduct;
> ​*(OBSERVATION)*
> 
> Arab Palestinians operated largely on the same soft targets as most psychopaths:
> 
> 1972 Summer Olympic Massacre. the 1978 Coastal Road Massacre.
> The 1974 Qiryat Shemona attacks,  terrorists on residential, building.
> The attack on the Italian cruise ship Achille Lauro, when they killed a Jewish Passenger in a wheelchair and threw him overboard.
> The many airline hijackings, bombing on a bus, in market places, amusement parks, beaches and shores tourist attractions,
> Or the attacks right up and to the present.
> There were hostages takings  —- at places like the children's dormitory, the bombing at a children’s clothing market,  stabbings, shootings, boobytrapped bus stops, grenade attack, crowded restaurants, event receptions,  movie theaters and cinemas, → and the list goes on.  Arab Palestinian violence includes attacks at holy sites like that of the Tomb of the Patriarchs.
> 
> The Declaration on Measures to Eliminate International Terrorism, annexed to General Assembly resolution 49/60 of 9 December 1994, in which, inter alia, declares *⇒*
> 
> "Criminal acts intended or calculated to provoke a state of terror in the general public, a group of persons or particular persons for political purposes are in any circumstance unjustifiable, whatever the considerations of a political, philosophical, ideological, racial, ethnic, religious or any other nature that may be invoked to justify them;"​*(COMMENT)*
> 
> As you can see, I think that the Hostile Arab Palestinian (HoAP) is attempting to raise sympathy for their cause by deliberately and with premeditation, set the conditions to assemble, incite and direct the  Protestors to breach the security barrier and then penetrate Israeli Sovereignty.
> 
> ✪  This violates the use of civilians as a shield for the cover and concealment in the military advance into Israel.
> 
> ■  Rule 23:  Location of Military Objective outside Densely Populated Areas
> ■  Rule 24:  Removal of Civilians and Civilian Objects from the vicinity of Military Objectives
> ■  Rule 97:  Human Shields​
> ✪  This violates the Basic Rules of Incitement:
> 
> ■  A/RES/2/110 - Against Propaganda and the Inciters of a New War
> ■  A/RES/49/60 - Measures to Eliminate International Terrorism
> ■  S/RES/1624 (2005)  Counter Terrorism UNSC 1624 (Incitement)​
> ✪  This is a Government supported action in violation of:
> 
> Charter of the United Nations --- Chapter I • *PURPOSES AND PRINCIPLES • Paragraph 2(4)*
> All Members shall refrain in their international relations from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of any state, or in any other manner inconsistent with the Purposes of the United Nations.​
> I would think it would be very damned obvious that the protest was organized by the Asymmetric instigators to create the conditions for a violent confrontation that the HoAP could not otherwise achieve.
> 
> The protesters appear to be driven by elements within the protest crowd to provoke an Israeli response by the Border Police --- being herded and urged or incited to commit to induce a *violent* confrontation; with the intent _(as members of the protest said themselves in media interviews)_ to breach Israeli Sovereignty.  The objective:  to recover territory lost in the 1948 Israeli War of Independence.
> 
> Most Respectfully,
> R


Are you still pimping Israel's terrorist propaganda campaign?


----------



## Hollie

P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> 
> RE:  Palestine Today
> ※→ et al,
> 
> For the last half-century, we all have seen the recurring divisiveness of the Hostile Arab Palestinian (HoAP) use cowardly practices.Different variations on the basics; yet oddly with a common frame.
> 
> To promote, by all means of publicity and propaganda available to them, friendly relations among nations based upon the Purposes and Principles of the Charter;
> 
> Calls upon all States to adopt such measures as may be necessary and appropriate and in accordance with their obligations under international law to:
> 
> a)  Prohibit by law incitement to commit a terrorist act or acts;
> b)  Prevent such conduct;
> c)   Deny safe haven to any persons with respect to whom there is credible
> and relevant information giving serious reasons for considering that they have been
> guilty of such conduct;
> ​*(OBSERVATION)*
> 
> Arab Palestinians operated largely on the same soft targets as most psychopaths:
> 
> 1972 Summer Olympic Massacre. the 1978 Coastal Road Massacre.
> The 1974 Qiryat Shemona attacks,  terrorists on residential, building.
> The attack on the Italian cruise ship Achille Lauro, when they killed a Jewish Passenger in a wheelchair and threw him overboard.
> The many airline hijackings, bombing on a bus, in market places, amusement parks, beaches and shores tourist attractions,
> Or the attacks right up and to the present.
> There were hostages takings  —- at places like the children's dormitory, the bombing at a children’s clothing market,  stabbings, shootings, boobytrapped bus stops, grenade attack, crowded restaurants, event receptions,  movie theaters and cinemas, → and the list goes on.  Arab Palestinian violence includes attacks at holy sites like that of the Tomb of the Patriarchs.
> 
> The Declaration on Measures to Eliminate International Terrorism, annexed to General Assembly resolution 49/60 of 9 December 1994, in which, inter alia, declares *⇒*
> 
> "Criminal acts intended or calculated to provoke a state of terror in the general public, a group of persons or particular persons for political purposes are in any circumstance unjustifiable, whatever the considerations of a political, philosophical, ideological, racial, ethnic, religious or any other nature that may be invoked to justify them;"​*(COMMENT)*
> 
> As you can see, I think that the Hostile Arab Palestinian (HoAP) is attempting to raise sympathy for their cause by deliberately and with premeditation, set the conditions to assemble, incite and direct the  Protestors to breach the security barrier and then penetrate Israeli Sovereignty.
> 
> ✪  This violates the use of civilians as a shield for the cover and concealment in the military advance into Israel.
> 
> ■  Rule 23:  Location of Military Objective outside Densely Populated Areas
> ■  Rule 24:  Removal of Civilians and Civilian Objects from the vicinity of Military Objectives
> ■  Rule 97:  Human Shields​
> ✪  This violates the Basic Rules of Incitement:
> 
> ■  A/RES/2/110 - Against Propaganda and the Inciters of a New War
> ■  A/RES/49/60 - Measures to Eliminate International Terrorism
> ■  S/RES/1624 (2005)  Counter Terrorism UNSC 1624 (Incitement)​
> ✪  This is a Government supported action in violation of:
> 
> Charter of the United Nations --- Chapter I • *PURPOSES AND PRINCIPLES • Paragraph 2(4)*
> All Members shall refrain in their international relations from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of any state, or in any other manner inconsistent with the Purposes of the United Nations.​
> I would think it would be very damned obvious that the protest was organized by the Asymmetric instigators to create the conditions for a violent confrontation that the HoAP could not otherwise achieve.
> 
> The protesters appear to be driven by elements within the protest crowd to provoke an Israeli response by the Border Police --- being herded and urged or incited to commit to induce a *violent* confrontation; with the intent _(as members of the protest said themselves in media interviews)_ to breach Israeli Sovereignty.  The objective:  to recover territory lost in the 1948 Israeli War of Independence.
> 
> Most Respectfully,
> R
> 
> 
> 
> Are you still pimping Israel's terrorist propaganda campaign?
Click to expand...


Do you realize that people cringe when you embarrass yourself with these repetitive cut and paste slogans?


----------



## RetiredGySgt

P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> 
> Arab Palestinians operated largely on the same soft targets as most psychopaths:
> 
> 
> 
> Do you mean like Israel's ethnic cleansing of hundreds of unarmed Palestinian farm villages in 1948?
Click to expand...

When armed men use weapons of war on Israelis they can respond with deadly force which is EXACTLY what happened in this incident.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot

P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> 
> The objective: to recover territory lost in the 1948 Israeli War of Independence.
> 
> 
> 
> Independence from what?
> 
> The Palestinians lost a war in 1948?
Click to expand...


The Arabs lose every time they fight.


----------



## Indeependent

Tijn Von Ingersleben said:


> Weatherman2020 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tijn Von Ingersleben said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Weatherman2020 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tijn Von Ingersleben said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> teddyearp said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, we know. In a way I agree about the funds, but how heartless of you to wish for death.
> 
> 
> 
> If the Earth were to open up and swallow both groups tomorrow it would make zero difference to me. I am sick sick sick and tired of hearing about these two shitheads fighting over a piece of sand in the middle of nowhere. I am MORE sick of billions of my tax dollars going to fund it. Screw them both...I don't care.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Money is more important than human lives and Liberty?
> How leftist of you.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Human lives...let's give the world a bit of equanimity shall we? How many 'put upon', ''oppressed' groups does this world have?....odd we should focus so much energy on such a small spot in the world?
> Whose in YOUR wallet?
> Americans need to be sick of this. Billions per year for what? Ridiculous.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> No mystery why the world focuses on that tiny strip of sand.
> Gods chosen people live there.
> 
> I've been in the West Bank, you?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Don't give a shit about the West Bank...I AM AN AMERICAN.
Click to expand...

I suggest you go back to 1967 and tell the US to mind it’s own fucking business when it stopped Israel from finishing  the job.
Yep, the US fucked up big time.


----------



## P F Tinmore

Toddsterpatriot said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> 
> The objective: to recover territory lost in the 1948 Israeli War of Independence.
> 
> 
> 
> Independence from what?
> 
> The Palestinians lost a war in 1948?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The Arabs lose every time they fight.
Click to expand...

The usual duck.


----------



## Indeependent

P F Tinmore said:


> Toddsterpatriot said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> 
> The objective: to recover territory lost in the 1948 Israeli War of Independence.
> 
> 
> 
> Independence from what?
> 
> The Palestinians lost a war in 1948?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The Arabs lose every time they fight.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The usual duck.
Click to expand...

Link?


----------



## Toddsterpatriot

P F Tinmore said:


> Toddsterpatriot said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> 
> The objective: to recover territory lost in the 1948 Israeli War of Independence.
> 
> 
> 
> Independence from what?
> 
> The Palestinians lost a war in 1948?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The Arabs lose every time they fight.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The usual duck.
Click to expand...


Loser says what?


----------



## RetiredGySgt

P F Tinmore said:


> Toddsterpatriot said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> 
> The objective: to recover territory lost in the 1948 Israeli War of Independence.
> 
> 
> 
> Independence from what?
> 
> The Palestinians lost a war in 1948?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The Arabs lose every time they fight.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The usual duck.
Click to expand...

Ignoring my point I see again coward, when Arabs bring weapons of war and fire them at Israelis they are allowed to return fire with deadly force which is what happened here.


----------



## Billo_Really

Israeli's are fucking attention whores.


----------



## cnelsen

skye said:


> Tijn Von Ingersleben said:
> 
> 
> 
> One of the two sides should hurry up and kill the other...I am tired of my tax dollars going toward this shit show.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> with money or without money...
> 
> the show will continue until the palestinians stop their tantrum.
Click to expand...

They should just quietly go away when we steal their land.


----------



## Weatherman2020

Indeependent said:


> Tijn Von Ingersleben said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Weatherman2020 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tijn Von Ingersleben said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Weatherman2020 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tijn Von Ingersleben said:
> 
> 
> 
> If the Earth were to open up and swallow both groups tomorrow it would make zero difference to me. I am sick sick sick and tired of hearing about these two shitheads fighting over a piece of sand in the middle of nowhere. I am MORE sick of billions of my tax dollars going to fund it. Screw them both...I don't care.
> 
> 
> 
> Money is more important than human lives and Liberty?
> How leftist of you.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Human lives...let's give the world a bit of equanimity shall we? How many 'put upon', ''oppressed' groups does this world have?....odd we should focus so much energy on such a small spot in the world?
> Whose in YOUR wallet?
> Americans need to be sick of this. Billions per year for what? Ridiculous.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> No mystery why the world focuses on that tiny strip of sand.
> Gods chosen people live there.
> 
> I've been in the West Bank, you?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Don't give a shit about the West Bank...I AM AN AMERICAN.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I suggest you go back to 1967 and tell the US to mind it’s own fucking business when it stopped Israel from finishing  the job.
> Yep, the US fucked up big time.
Click to expand...

Prophecy says it couldn't be finished then.
That's what makes this whole thing intreating.


----------



## RetiredGySgt

cnelsen said:


> skye said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tijn Von Ingersleben said:
> 
> 
> 
> One of the two sides should hurry up and kill the other...I am tired of my tax dollars going toward this shit show.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> with money or without money...
> 
> the show will continue until the palestinians stop their tantrum.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> They should just quietly go away when we steal their land.
Click to expand...

Was NOT their land it was Israelis most of it purchased from Arabs.


----------



## cnelsen

Penelope said:


> Yet they are fenced in, while Israelis  tanks shoot at them.  They are not even allowed to come up to the fence, why doesn't the Israelis make a new fence  inside of the old fence and repeat the steps until Gaza is no longer?


Thats exactly what they are doing, b ut that takes awhile. That's why there will be a very long peace process.


----------



## cnelsen

RetiredGySgt said:


> cnelsen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> skye said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tijn Von Ingersleben said:
> 
> 
> 
> One of the two sides should hurry up and kill the other...I am tired of my tax dollars going toward this shit show.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> with money or without money...
> 
> the show will continue until the palestinians stop their tantrum.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> They should just quietly go away when we steal their land.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Was NOT their land it was Israelis most of it purchased from Arabs.
Click to expand...

I had a very close friend who was Palestinian. His version differs from yours. I believe him, not you.


----------



## Weatherman2020

Billo_Really said:


> Israeli's are fucking attention whores.


What's funny is that in a screwed up world you moonbats only focus a minuscule fraction of humanity in a tiny strip of land.
Gods chosen does have that effect on evil doers.


----------



## cnelsen

ILOVEISRAEL said:


> Penelope said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Penelope said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> teddyearp said:
> 
> 
> 
> As usual, throwing rocks and firebombs is considered 'unarmed'.  And the UNWRA helped promote these 'protests' as a prelude to try to, again, demonize the Nation of Israel.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As compared to guns, yep.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Are you suggesting the IDF should throw rocks in return?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Maybe give the Pals some guns , at least be equal on the battlefield. Or IDF can throw rocks.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Maybe the Palestinians shouldn’t initiate Rock throwing or is that too simple for a “ Christian” like you who had over 2000 years of Jewish Hate?
Click to expand...

Yeah, well I'm a Christian who is tired of your Jewish hate.


----------



## cnelsen

ILOVEISRAEL said:


> Penelope said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Weatherman2020 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tijn Von Ingersleben said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Weatherman2020 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tijn Von Ingersleben said:
> 
> 
> 
> If the Earth were to open up and swallow both groups tomorrow it would make zero difference to me. I am sick sick sick and tired of hearing about these two shitheads fighting over a piece of sand in the middle of nowhere. I am MORE sick of billions of my tax dollars going to fund it. Screw them both...I don't care.
> 
> 
> 
> Money is more important than human lives and Liberty?
> How leftist of you.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Human lives...let's give the world a bit of equanimity shall we? How many 'put upon', ''oppressed' groups does this world have?....odd we should focus so much energy on such a small spot in the world?
> Whose in YOUR wallet?
> Americans need to be sick of this. Billions per year for what? Ridiculous.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> No mystery why the world focuses on that tiny strip of sand.
> Gods chosen people live there.
> 
> I've been in the West Bank, you?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> When are Christians going to get over worshipping Jews, they do not think much of Christians.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The Jew Hater speaks again. There have been plenty of threads about Christian Anti Semitism going on for over 2000 years and she ignores them all
Click to expand...

Let's see....Jews murdered the first Christian, and it's Christians with the history of hatred?


----------



## Weatherman2020

cnelsen said:


> ILOVEISRAEL said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Penelope said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Weatherman2020 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tijn Von Ingersleben said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Weatherman2020 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Money is more important than human lives and Liberty?
> How leftist of you.
> 
> 
> 
> Human lives...let's give the world a bit of equanimity shall we? How many 'put upon', ''oppressed' groups does this world have?....odd we should focus so much energy on such a small spot in the world?
> Whose in YOUR wallet?
> Americans need to be sick of this. Billions per year for what? Ridiculous.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> No mystery why the world focuses on that tiny strip of sand.
> Gods chosen people live there.
> 
> I've been in the West Bank, you?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> When are Christians going to get over worshipping Jews, they do not think much of Christians.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The Jew Hater speaks again. There have been plenty of threads about Christian Anti Semitism going on for over 2000 years and she ignores them all
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Let's see....Jews murdered the first Christian, and it's Christians with the history of hatred?
Click to expand...

Please.  Jesus was not murdered, so either learn or shut-up.


----------



## RoccoR

RE: Israeli forces shoot unarmed protesters from across Gaza security fence, killing at least 15
※→ P F Tinmore,  et al,


*•  Why Are You Protesting Against Israel  •*​
We must critically examine why the Arab Palestinians intentionally created an atmosphrere of violence during the protests, and the twisted Arab Palestinian logic and reasonoing.



P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> 
> Arab Palestinians operated largely on the same soft targets as most psychopaths:
> 
> 
> 
> Do you mean like Israel's ethnic cleansing of hundreds of unarmed Palestinian farm villages in 1948?
Click to expand...

*(COMMENT)*

Whatever the Jewish People did to secure their National Home over a half century ago, that conflict is over and done with concerning the territories assigned to the Government of Palestine by the Egyptians and the Jordanians.

Relative to any complaint over action seventy years ago, it is simply something that must be looked at from the viewpoint of that actors involedand the official parties to the conflict.

It should be noted, that their has been no attempted by the Arab Palestinians, now involved in violent protests, to open talks under the Permanent Status of Negotiations (Oslo Accord) --- or  --- under the Principles of International Law concerning Friendly Relations and Co-operation among States.  In fact, the Arab Palestinians still follow the Khartoum Resolutions Framework:

•  No peace with Israel, 
•  No recognition of Israel, 
•  No negotiations;​
The principle sponsor for this recent round of violent protests is HAMAS (The Islamic Resistance Movement).  HAMAS believes that the Initiatives, and so-called peaceful solutions and international conferences, are in contradiction to the principles of the Islamic Resistance MovementInitiatives, and so-called peaceful solutions and international conferences, are in contradiction to the principles of the Islamic Resistance Movement.   ---   "There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors."



P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> 
> The objective: to recover territory lost in the 1948 Israeli War of Independence.
> 
> 
> 
> Independencefrom what?  The Palestinians lost a war in 1948?
Click to expand...

*(COMMENT)*

The objective mentioned is the stated objective made by protesters.

This is a Arab Palestinian concept.  

Q1:  If the Arab Palestinians never had sovereignty over the territory, then what is the complaint?
Q2:  If the Arab Palestinians never had control, then YES, you are right.  The control that Israel now has --- has never been territory under Arab Palestinian territorial integrity.   So what is the basis for the Arab Palestinian Complaint?​
Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## Shusha

P F Tinmore said:


> The Palestinians lost a war in 1948?



The Arab Palestinians started (and lost) a civil war against the Jewish Palestinians.  Not just once in 1948, but continuously since.  And yet they keep trying to make war against the Jewish Palestinians (now called Israelis).  

And since they've finally realized that standard warfare is likely to continue to have the same result for the foreseeable future and since key Arab neighbors have made peace with Israel, the Arab Palestinians are stuck with a propaganda war where they ride a delicate balance of committing violence and demonizing Israel as being responsible for that violence.  

Thus they waste $15 million and a couple dozen lives on a propaganda "March" that gets them exactly no where.  And, in fact, only exposes them.


----------



## P F Tinmore

Shusha said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> The Palestinians lost a war in 1948?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Arab Palestinians started (and lost) a civil war against the Jewish Palestinians.  Not just once in 1948, but continuously since.  And yet they keep trying to make war against the Jewish Palestinians (now called Israelis).
> 
> And since they've finally realized that standard warfare is likely to continue to have the same result for the foreseeable future and since key Arab neighbors have made peace with Israel, the Arab Palestinians are stuck with a propaganda war where they ride a delicate balance of committing violence and demonizing Israel as being responsible for that violence.
> 
> Thus they waste $15 million and a couple dozen lives on a propaganda "March" that gets them exactly no where.  And, in fact, only exposes them.
Click to expand...




Shusha said:


> The Arab Palestinians started (and lost) a civil war against the Jewish Palestinians.


You don't know the meaning of immigration.


----------



## P F Tinmore

RoccoR said:


> RE: Israeli forces shoot unarmed protesters from across Gaza security fence, killing at least 15
> ※→ P F Tinmore,  et al,
> 
> 
> *•  Why Are You Protesting Against Israel  •*​
> We must critically examine why the Arab Palestinians intentionally created an atmosphrere of violence during the protests, and the twisted Arab Palestinian logic and reasonoing.
> 
> 
> 
> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> 
> Arab Palestinians operated largely on the same soft targets as most psychopaths:
> 
> 
> 
> Do you mean like Israel's ethnic cleansing of hundreds of unarmed Palestinian farm villages in 1948?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> *(COMMENT)*
> 
> Whatever the Jewish People did to secure their National Home over a half century ago, that conflict is over and done with concerning the territories assigned to the Government of Palestine by the Egyptians and the Jordanians.
> 
> Relative to any complaint over action seventy years ago, it is simply something that must be looked at from the viewpoint of that actors involedand the official parties to the conflict.
> 
> It should be noted, that their has been no attempted by the Arab Palestinians, now involved in violent protests, to open talks under the Permanent Status of Negotiations (Oslo Accord) --- or  --- under the Principles of International Law concerning Friendly Relations and Co-operation among States.  In fact, the Arab Palestinians still follow the Khartoum Resolutions Framework:
> 
> •  No peace with Israel,
> •  No recognition of Israel,
> •  No negotiations;​
> The principle sponsor for this recent round of violent protests is HAMAS (The Islamic Resistance Movement).  HAMAS believes that the Initiatives, and so-called peaceful solutions and international conferences, are in contradiction to the principles of the Islamic Resistance MovementInitiatives, and so-called peaceful solutions and international conferences, are in contradiction to the principles of the Islamic Resistance Movement.   ---   "There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors."
> 
> 
> 
> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> 
> The objective: to recover territory lost in the 1948 Israeli War of Independence.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Independencefrom what?  The Palestinians lost a war in 1948?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> *(COMMENT)*
> 
> The objective mentioned is the stated objective made by protesters.
> 
> This is a Arab Palestinian concept.
> 
> Q1:  If the Arab Palestinians never had sovereignty over the territory, then what is the complaint?
> Q2:  If the Arab Palestinians never had control, then YES, you are right.  The control that Israel now has --- has never been territory under Arab Palestinian territorial integrity.   So what is the basis for the Arab Palestinian Complaint?​
> Most Respectfully,
> R
Click to expand...

You only say this because you believe that the Palestinians somehow missed out on universal inalienable rights.


----------



## P F Tinmore

Shusha said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> The Palestinians lost a war in 1948?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Arab Palestinians started (and lost) a civil war against the Jewish Palestinians.  Not just once in 1948, but continuously since.  And yet they keep trying to make war against the Jewish Palestinians (now called Israelis).
> 
> And since they've finally realized that standard warfare is likely to continue to have the same result for the foreseeable future and since key Arab neighbors have made peace with Israel, the Arab Palestinians are stuck with a propaganda war where they ride a delicate balance of committing violence and demonizing Israel as being responsible for that violence.
> 
> Thus they waste $15 million and a couple dozen lives on a propaganda "March" that gets them exactly no where.  And, in fact, only exposes them.
Click to expand...

No link, huh?


----------



## Mindful

Hamas gives the command in Gaza.


----------



## Tijn Von Ingersleben

Indeependent said:


> Tijn Von Ingersleben said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Weatherman2020 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tijn Von Ingersleben said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Weatherman2020 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tijn Von Ingersleben said:
> 
> 
> 
> If the Earth were to open up and swallow both groups tomorrow it would make zero difference to me. I am sick sick sick and tired of hearing about these two shitheads fighting over a piece of sand in the middle of nowhere. I am MORE sick of billions of my tax dollars going to fund it. Screw them both...I don't care.
> 
> 
> 
> Money is more important than human lives and Liberty?
> How leftist of you.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Human lives...let's give the world a bit of equanimity shall we? How many 'put upon', ''oppressed' groups does this world have?....odd we should focus so much energy on such a small spot in the world?
> Whose in YOUR wallet?
> Americans need to be sick of this. Billions per year for what? Ridiculous.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> No mystery why the world focuses on that tiny strip of sand.
> Gods chosen people live there.
> 
> I've been in the West Bank, you?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Don't give a shit about the West Bank...I AM AN AMERICAN.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I suggest you go back to 1967 and tell the US to mind it’s own fucking business when it stopped Israel from finishing  the job.
> Yep, the US fucked up big time.
Click to expand...

That's the crux of my argument...none of it is our business to begin with. Yet here we are...billions later.


----------



## Billo_Really

Weatherman2020 said:


> What's funny is that in a screwed up world you moonbats only focus a minuscule fraction of humanity in a tiny strip of land.
> Gods chosen does have that effect on evil doers.


God doesn't choose, asshole.  We're all equal in HIS eyes.


----------



## Indeependent

Tijn Von Ingersleben said:


> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tijn Von Ingersleben said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Weatherman2020 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tijn Von Ingersleben said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Weatherman2020 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Money is more important than human lives and Liberty?
> How leftist of you.
> 
> 
> 
> Human lives...let's give the world a bit of equanimity shall we? How many 'put upon', ''oppressed' groups does this world have?....odd we should focus so much energy on such a small spot in the world?
> Whose in YOUR wallet?
> Americans need to be sick of this. Billions per year for what? Ridiculous.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> No mystery why the world focuses on that tiny strip of sand.
> Gods chosen people live there.
> 
> I've been in the West Bank, you?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Don't give a shit about the West Bank...I AM AN AMERICAN.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I suggest you go back to 1967 and tell the US to mind it’s own fucking business when it stopped Israel from finishing  the job.
> Yep, the US fucked up big time.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> That's the crux of my argument...none of it is our business to begin with. Yet here we are...billions later.
Click to expand...

Yep...the US fucked up.


----------



## Indeependent

cnelsen said:


> ILOVEISRAEL said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Penelope said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Weatherman2020 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tijn Von Ingersleben said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Weatherman2020 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Money is more important than human lives and Liberty?
> How leftist of you.
> 
> 
> 
> Human lives...let's give the world a bit of equanimity shall we? How many 'put upon', ''oppressed' groups does this world have?....odd we should focus so much energy on such a small spot in the world?
> Whose in YOUR wallet?
> Americans need to be sick of this. Billions per year for what? Ridiculous.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> No mystery why the world focuses on that tiny strip of sand.
> Gods chosen people live there.
> 
> I've been in the West Bank, you?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> When are Christians going to get over worshipping Jews, they do not think much of Christians.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The Jew Hater speaks again. There have been plenty of threads about Christian Anti Semitism going on for over 2000 years and she ignores them all
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Let's see....Jews murdered the first Christian, and it's Christians with the history of hatred?
Click to expand...


Who wasn’t expecting to die.
And yet, without dying, your religion wouldn’t exist.


----------



## Weatherman2020

Billo_Really said:


> Weatherman2020 said:
> 
> 
> 
> What's funny is that in a screwed up world you moonbats only focus a minuscule fraction of humanity in a tiny strip of land.
> Gods chosen does have that effect on evil doers.
> 
> 
> 
> God doesn't choose, asshole.  We're all equal in HIS eyes.
Click to expand...

Oh goody, yet another lefty atheist who thinks she’s a theologian.


----------



## RoccoR

Israeli forces shoot unarmed protesters from across Gaza security fence, killing at least 15
※→  P F Tinmore,  et al,

I actually like this exchange.



P F Tinmore said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> The Palestinians lost a war in 1948?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Arab Palestinians started (and lost) a civil war against the Jewish Palestinians.  Not just once in 1948, but continuously since.  And yet they keep trying to make war against the Jewish Palestinians (now called Israelis).
> 
> And since they've finally realized that standard warfare is likely to continue to have the same result for the foreseeable future and since key Arab neighbors have made peace with Israel, the Arab Palestinians are stuck with a propaganda war where they ride a delicate balance of committing violence and demonizing Israel as being responsible for that violence.
> 
> Thus they waste $15 million and a couple dozen lives on a propaganda "March" that gets them exactly no where.  And, in fact, only exposes them.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> No link, huh?
Click to expand...

*(COMMENT)*

Technically, the Arab Palestine did not exist in the sense of a competent government.  Therefore, technically, they cannot be considered defeated.

Hmmm.

I guess that since Arab Palestinian did not risk anything, they did not  "lose" anything,

Hmmm

Clearly, Israel has effective control.  Clearly, the Arab Palestinians did not lose anything.  So, why are the Arab Palestinians trying to cross into Israel?  Surely it is NOT to reclaim something they did not lose in the first place...

Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## P F Tinmore

RoccoR said:


> Israeli forces shoot unarmed protesters from across Gaza security fence, killing at least 15
> ※→  P F Tinmore,  et al,
> 
> I actually like this exchange.
> 
> 
> 
> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> The Palestinians lost a war in 1948?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Arab Palestinians started (and lost) a civil war against the Jewish Palestinians.  Not just once in 1948, but continuously since.  And yet they keep trying to make war against the Jewish Palestinians (now called Israelis).
> 
> And since they've finally realized that standard warfare is likely to continue to have the same result for the foreseeable future and since key Arab neighbors have made peace with Israel, the Arab Palestinians are stuck with a propaganda war where they ride a delicate balance of committing violence and demonizing Israel as being responsible for that violence.
> 
> Thus they waste $15 million and a couple dozen lives on a propaganda "March" that gets them exactly no where.  And, in fact, only exposes them.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> No link, huh?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> *(COMMENT)*
> 
> Technically, the Arab Palestine did not exist in the sense of a competent government.  Therefore, technically, they cannot be considered defeated.
> 
> Hmmm.
> 
> I guess that since Arab Palestinian did not risk anything, they did not  "lose" anything,
> 
> Hmmm
> 
> Clearly, Israel has effective control.  Clearly, the Arab Palestinians did not lose anything.  So, why are the Arab Palestinians trying to cross into Israel?  Surely it is NOT to reclaim something they did not lose in the first place...
> 
> Most Respectfully,
> R
Click to expand...




RoccoR said:


> Clearly, Israel has effective control.


Effective control is a term used to define an occupation.



RoccoR said:


> Clearly, the Arab Palestinians did not lose anything.


750,000 Palestinians were driven from their homes and their land stolen did not lose anything? 



RoccoR said:


> So, why are the Arab Palestinians trying to cross into Israel?



There is no "into Israel." Israel has no borders. Where would into Israel be?

Rocco, you are a hoot.


----------



## Mindful

Just more Pallywood.

And they choose Passover.


----------



## Indeependent

P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> 
> Israeli forces shoot unarmed protesters from across Gaza security fence, killing at least 15
> ※→  P F Tinmore,  et al,
> 
> I actually like this exchange.
> 
> 
> 
> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> The Palestinians lost a war in 1948?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Arab Palestinians started (and lost) a civil war against the Jewish Palestinians.  Not just once in 1948, but continuously since.  And yet they keep trying to make war against the Jewish Palestinians (now called Israelis).
> 
> And since they've finally realized that standard warfare is likely to continue to have the same result for the foreseeable future and since key Arab neighbors have made peace with Israel, the Arab Palestinians are stuck with a propaganda war where they ride a delicate balance of committing violence and demonizing Israel as being responsible for that violence.
> 
> Thus they waste $15 million and a couple dozen lives on a propaganda "March" that gets them exactly no where.  And, in fact, only exposes them.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> No link, huh?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> *(COMMENT)*
> 
> Technically, the Arab Palestine did not exist in the sense of a competent government.  Therefore, technically, they cannot be considered defeated.
> 
> Hmmm.
> 
> I guess that since Arab Palestinian did not risk anything, they did not  "lose" anything,
> 
> Hmmm
> 
> Clearly, Israel has effective control.  Clearly, the Arab Palestinians did not lose anything.  So, why are the Arab Palestinians trying to cross into Israel?  Surely it is NOT to reclaim something they did not lose in the first place...
> 
> Most Respectfully,
> R
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> 
> Clearly, Israel has effective control.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Effective control is a term used to define an occupation.
> 
> 
> 
> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> 
> Clearly, the Arab Palestinians did not lose anything.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 750,000 Palestinians were driven from their homes and their land stolen did not lose anything?
> 
> 
> 
> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> 
> So, why are the Arab Palestinians trying to cross into Israel?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> There is no "into Israel." Israel has no borders. Where would into Israel be?
> 
> Rocco, you are a hoot.
Click to expand...

Link?


----------



## P F Tinmore

RoccoR said:


> Technically, the Arab Palestine did not exist in the sense of a competent government. Therefore, technically, they cannot be considered defeated.


Indeed, but Israel's attacks on the Palestinians continue.


----------



## Indeependent

P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> 
> Technically, the Arab Palestine did not exist in the sense of a competent government. Therefore, technically, they cannot be considered defeated.
> 
> 
> 
> Indeed, but Israel's attacks on the Palestinians continue.
Click to expand...

Link?


----------



## Mindful

Indeependent said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> 
> Technically, the Arab Palestine did not exist in the sense of a competent government. Therefore, technically, they cannot be considered defeated.
> 
> 
> 
> Indeed, but Israel's attacks on the Palestinians continue.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Link?
Click to expand...


What is it with that dude?


----------



## Indeependent

Mindful said:


> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> 
> Technically, the Arab Palestine did not exist in the sense of a competent government. Therefore, technically, they cannot be considered defeated.
> 
> 
> 
> Indeed, but Israel's attacks on the Palestinians continue.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Link?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> What is it with that dude?
Click to expand...

Delusional.


----------



## Hollie

P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> 
> Technically, the Arab Palestine did not exist in the sense of a competent government. Therefore, technically, they cannot be considered defeated.
> 
> 
> 
> Indeed, but Israel's attacks on the Palestinians continue.
Click to expand...


What we're seeing is precisely the opposite of your ill-informed banter. 

It is Arabs-Moslems who are instigating hostilities. Does the prayer leader at your madrassah write the nonsense you cut and paste?


----------



## cnelsen

Weatherman2020 said:


> cnelsen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ILOVEISRAEL said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Penelope said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Weatherman2020 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tijn Von Ingersleben said:
> 
> 
> 
> Human lives...let's give the world a bit of equanimity shall we? How many 'put upon', ''oppressed' groups does this world have?....odd we should focus so much energy on such a small spot in the world?
> Whose in YOUR wallet?
> Americans need to be sick of this. Billions per year for what? Ridiculous.
> 
> 
> 
> No mystery why the world focuses on that tiny strip of sand.
> Gods chosen people live there.
> 
> I've been in the West Bank, you?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> When are Christians going to get over worshipping Jews, they do not think much of Christians.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The Jew Hater speaks again. There have been plenty of threads about Christian Anti Semitism going on for over 2000 years and she ignores them all
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Let's see....Jews murdered the first Christian, and it's Christians with the history of hatred?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Please.  Jesus was not murdered, so either learn or shut-up.
Click to expand...

Right. Murdered isn't quite the word. Jesus was lynched.


----------



## cnelsen

Indeependent said:


> cnelsen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ILOVEISRAEL said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Penelope said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Weatherman2020 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tijn Von Ingersleben said:
> 
> 
> 
> Human lives...let's give the world a bit of equanimity shall we? How many 'put upon', ''oppressed' groups does this world have?....odd we should focus so much energy on such a small spot in the world?
> Whose in YOUR wallet?
> Americans need to be sick of this. Billions per year for what? Ridiculous.
> 
> 
> 
> No mystery why the world focuses on that tiny strip of sand.
> Gods chosen people live there.
> 
> I've been in the West Bank, you?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> When are Christians going to get over worshipping Jews, they do not think much of Christians.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The Jew Hater speaks again. There have been plenty of threads about Christian Anti Semitism going on for over 2000 years and she ignores them all
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Let's see....Jews murdered the first Christian, and it's Christians with the history of hatred?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Who wasn’t expecting to die.
> And yet, without dying, your religion wouldn’t exist.
Click to expand...

The sacrificial reading of the New Testament is an unfortunate holdover from the barbarism of Judaism. I don't subscribe to the idea that a real God would demand the shedding of innocent blood. "Sacrifice" is as ignorant and primitive an idea as the absurdity that any real God would have a "chosen people".


----------



## Indeependent

cnelsen said:


> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> cnelsen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ILOVEISRAEL said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Penelope said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Weatherman2020 said:
> 
> 
> 
> No mystery why the world focuses on that tiny strip of sand.
> Gods chosen people live there.
> 
> I've been in the West Bank, you?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> When are Christians going to get over worshipping Jews, they do not think much of Christians.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The Jew Hater speaks again. There have been plenty of threads about Christian Anti Semitism going on for over 2000 years and she ignores them all
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Let's see....Jews murdered the first Christian, and it's Christians with the history of hatred?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Who wasn’t expecting to die.
> And yet, without dying, your religion wouldn’t exist.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The sacrificial reading of the New Testament is an unfortunate holdover from the barbarism of Judaism. I don't subscribe to the idea that a real God would demand the shedding of innocent blood. "Sacrifice" is as ignorant and primitive an idea as the absurdity that any real God would have a "chosen people".
Click to expand...

Please explain the barbarism of Judaism.
It is virtually impossible in Jewish law to find someone guilty of a capital crime.
I understand you do not know the complexities of Jewish law and arriving at a guilty verdict.
In the meantime, the RCC was using the Roman Empire to murder at will.
So much for Catholicism being the religion of love.


----------



## cnelsen

Indeependent said:


> cnelsen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> cnelsen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ILOVEISRAEL said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Penelope said:
> 
> 
> 
> When are Christians going to get over worshipping Jews, they do not think much of Christians.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Jew Hater speaks again. There have been plenty of threads about Christian Anti Semitism going on for over 2000 years and she ignores them all
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Let's see....Jews murdered the first Christian, and it's Christians with the history of hatred?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Who wasn’t expecting to die.
> And yet, without dying, your religion wouldn’t exist.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The sacrificial reading of the New Testament is an unfortunate holdover from the barbarism of Judaism. I don't subscribe to the idea that a real God would demand the shedding of innocent blood. "Sacrifice" is as ignorant and primitive an idea as the absurdity that any real God would have a "chosen people".
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Please explain the barbarism of Judaism.
> It is virtually impossible in Jewish law to find someone guilty of a capital crime.
> I understand you do not know the complexities of Jewish law and arriving at a guilty verdict.
> In the meantime, the RCC was using the Roman Empire to murder at will.
> So much for Catholicism being the religion of love.
Click to expand...

I would be happy to engage you in debate over whether the sacrifice of an innocent played a role in the development of Judaic law, but you are not an honest debater. You don't have the strength of character to grant a debate opponent a point earned, as I've learned.


----------



## Mindful

cnelsen said:


> Weatherman2020 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> cnelsen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ILOVEISRAEL said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Penelope said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Weatherman2020 said:
> 
> 
> 
> No mystery why the world focuses on that tiny strip of sand.
> Gods chosen people live there.
> 
> I've been in the West Bank, you?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> When are Christians going to get over worshipping Jews, they do not think much of Christians.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The Jew Hater speaks again. There have been plenty of threads about Christian Anti Semitism going on for over 2000 years and she ignores them all
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Let's see....Jews murdered the first Christian, and it's Christians with the history of hatred?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Please.  Jesus was not murdered, so either learn or shut-up.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Right. Murdered isn't quite the word. Jesus was lynched.
Click to expand...


Some say he wasn't. He sailed  over to the South  of France with his family.

Have  you read that story?


----------



## Indeependent

cnelsen said:


> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> cnelsen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> cnelsen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ILOVEISRAEL said:
> 
> 
> 
> The Jew Hater speaks again. There have been plenty of threads about Christian Anti Semitism going on for over 2000 years and she ignores them all
> 
> 
> 
> Let's see....Jews murdered the first Christian, and it's Christians with the history of hatred?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Who wasn’t expecting to die.
> And yet, without dying, your religion wouldn’t exist.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The sacrificial reading of the New Testament is an unfortunate holdover from the barbarism of Judaism. I don't subscribe to the idea that a real God would demand the shedding of innocent blood. "Sacrifice" is as ignorant and primitive an idea as the absurdity that any real God would have a "chosen people".
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Please explain the barbarism of Judaism.
> It is virtually impossible in Jewish law to find someone guilty of a capital crime.
> I understand you do not know the complexities of Jewish law and arriving at a guilty verdict.
> In the meantime, the RCC was using the Roman Empire to murder at will.
> So much for Catholicism being the religion of love.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I would be happy to engage you in debate over whether the sacrifice of an innocent played a role in the development of Judaic law, but you are not an honest debater. You don't have the strength of character to grant a debate opponent a point earned, as I've learned.
Click to expand...

Which innocent?
I have no clue as to who you are referring.


----------



## Shusha

This morning on Twitter:

Palestinians demand "return" not because of Gaza crisis.  Crisis is outcome of demand for "return".  As long as 80% of Gaza's residents, almost all of whom were born in Gaza, will view Gaza as a temporary place until they "take back" Israel, they will never build their future there. -- Einat Wilf.


----------



## Humanity

Hollie said:


> It is Arabs-Moslems who are instigating hostilities.



And the Palestinian who was shot BEFORE the march whilst working on his land?

Ah, the IDF didn't like the way he was digging I guess!


----------



## Hollie

Humanity said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> It is Arabs-Moslems who are instigating hostilities.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And the Palestinian who was shot BEFORE the march whilst working on his land?
> 
> Ah, the IDF didn't like the way he was digging I guess!
Click to expand...


Whilst you have personal knowledge of the facts surrounding that event, please share those facts.


----------



## Shusha

Humanity said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> It is Arabs-Moslems who are instigating hostilities.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And the Palestinian who was shot BEFORE the march whilst working on his land?
> 
> Ah, the IDF didn't like the way he was digging I guess!
Click to expand...


No, the IDF did not like the way he was digging with his accomplice UNDER the fence.

Tell me, why would a farmer be digging UNDER a fence?


----------



## RoccoR

Israeli forces shoot unarmed protesters from across Gaza security fence, killing at least 15
※→  P F Tinmore,  et al,



P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> 
> Israeli forces shoot unarmed protesters from across Gaza security fence, killing at least 15
> ※→  P F Tinmore,  et al,
> 
> I actually like this exchange.
> 
> 
> 
> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> The Palestinians lost a war in 1948?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Arab Palestinians started (and lost) a civil war against the Jewish Palestinians.  Not just once in 1948, but continuously since.  And yet they keep trying to make war against the Jewish Palestinians (now called Israelis).
> 
> And since they've finally realized that standard warfare is likely to continue to have the same result for the foreseeable future and since key Arab neighbors have made peace with Israel, the Arab Palestinians are stuck with a propaganda war where they ride a delicate balance of committing violence and demonizing Israel as being responsible for that violence.
> 
> Thus they waste $15 million and a couple dozen lives on a propaganda "March" that gets them exactly nowhere.  And, in fact, only exposes them.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> No link, huh?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> *(COMMENT)*
> 
> Technically, the Arab Palestine did not exist in the sense of a competent government.  Therefore, technically, they cannot be considered defeated.
> 
> Hmmm.
> 
> I guess that since Arab Palestinian did not risk anything, they did not  "lose" anything,
> 
> Hmmm
> 
> Clearly, Israel has effective control.  Clearly, the Arab Palestinians did not lose anything.  So, why are the Arab Palestinians trying to cross into Israel?  Surely it is NOT to reclaim something they did not lose in the first place...
> 
> Most Respectfully,
> R
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> 
> Clearly, Israel has effective control.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Effective control is a term used to define an occupation.
> *(COMMENT)*
> 
> Well, effective control is an element of occupation, but it is also something that is necessary to establish sovereignty.  IF a country "A" cannot establish effective control (ie country "B" has control) THEN country "A" cannot be a sovereign; the "supreme power or authority" over that territory.
> 
> 
> 
> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> 
> Clearly, the Arab Palestinians did not lose anything.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 750,000 Palestinians were driven from their homes and their land stolen did not lose anything?
> *(COMMENT)*
> 
> You cannot have it both ways.
> 
> You cannot challenge the statement that the Arab Palestinians lost territory; then turn around and say their homes and land were stolen _(ie the Israelis established effective control over the territory)_.
> 
> 
> 
> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> 
> So, why are the Arab Palestinians trying to cross into Israel?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> There is no "into Israel." Israel has no borders. Where would into Israel be?
> 
> Rocco, you are a hoot.
Click to expand...

*(COMMENT)*

Again, you are trying to have it your way.

As far as the West Bank and Gaza Strip are concerned, the international border is established by treaty.  If there is a HOOT here, it is you.

There are three sets of documents that contain the Internationally recognized boundary.  You may choose to ignore them, but each is on file with the UN. 

Egypt-Israel peace treaty (26 March 1979)

The Jordan-Israeli Peace Treaty (1994)

A/54/914  S/2000/564   12 June 2000
Paragraph 13 of the report states that “the international boundary between Israel and Lebanon was established pursuant to the 1923 Agreement between France and Great Britain ...”, that “this line was reaffirmed in the Israeli-Lebanese General Armistice Agreement signed on 23 March 1949” and that “subsequently there were several modifications mutually agreed by Israel and Lebanon”​
The border with Syria is complicated; currently, the established border is bounded by the Israeli annexation.

Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## cnelsen

Mindful said:


> cnelsen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Weatherman2020 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> cnelsen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ILOVEISRAEL said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Penelope said:
> 
> 
> 
> When are Christians going to get over worshipping Jews, they do not think much of Christians.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Jew Hater speaks again. There have been plenty of threads about Christian Anti Semitism going on for over 2000 years and she ignores them all
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Let's see....Jews murdered the first Christian, and it's Christians with the history of hatred?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Please.  Jesus was not murdered, so either learn or shut-up.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Right. Murdered isn't quite the word. Jesus was lynched.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Some say he wasn't. He sailed  over to the South  of France with his family.
> 
> Have  you read that story?
Click to expand...

No, first I heard that.


----------



## cnelsen

Indeependent said:


> cnelsen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> cnelsen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> cnelsen said:
> 
> 
> 
> Let's see....Jews murdered the first Christian, and it's Christians with the history of hatred?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Who wasn’t expecting to die.
> And yet, without dying, your religion wouldn’t exist.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The sacrificial reading of the New Testament is an unfortunate holdover from the barbarism of Judaism. I don't subscribe to the idea that a real God would demand the shedding of innocent blood. "Sacrifice" is as ignorant and primitive an idea as the absurdity that any real God would have a "chosen people".
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Please explain the barbarism of Judaism.
> It is virtually impossible in Jewish law to find someone guilty of a capital crime.
> I understand you do not know the complexities of Jewish law and arriving at a guilty verdict.
> In the meantime, the RCC was using the Roman Empire to murder at will.
> So much for Catholicism being the religion of love.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I would be happy to engage you in debate over whether the sacrifice of an innocent played a role in the development of Judaic law, but you are not an honest debater. You don't have the strength of character to grant a debate opponent a point earned, as I've learned.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Which innocent?
> I have no clue as to who you are referring.
Click to expand...

We could start with the appalling story of Abraham willing to sacrifice his son to please "god".


----------



## Weatherman2020

cnelsen said:


> Weatherman2020 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> cnelsen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ILOVEISRAEL said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Penelope said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Weatherman2020 said:
> 
> 
> 
> No mystery why the world focuses on that tiny strip of sand.
> Gods chosen people live there.
> 
> I've been in the West Bank, you?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> When are Christians going to get over worshipping Jews, they do not think much of Christians.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The Jew Hater speaks again. There have been plenty of threads about Christian Anti Semitism going on for over 2000 years and she ignores them all
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Let's see....Jews murdered the first Christian, and it's Christians with the history of hatred?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Please.  Jesus was not murdered, so either learn or shut-up.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Right. Murdered isn't quite the word. Jesus was lynched.
Click to expand...

Mathew 26 52-54

And if you don't understand that, then:
Mathew 7:21-23


----------



## Indeependent

cnelsen said:


> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> cnelsen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> cnelsen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> 
> Who wasn’t expecting to die.
> And yet, without dying, your religion wouldn’t exist.
> 
> 
> 
> The sacrificial reading of the New Testament is an unfortunate holdover from the barbarism of Judaism. I don't subscribe to the idea that a real God would demand the shedding of innocent blood. "Sacrifice" is as ignorant and primitive an idea as the absurdity that any real God would have a "chosen people".
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Please explain the barbarism of Judaism.
> It is virtually impossible in Jewish law to find someone guilty of a capital crime.
> I understand you do not know the complexities of Jewish law and arriving at a guilty verdict.
> In the meantime, the RCC was using the Roman Empire to murder at will.
> So much for Catholicism being the religion of love.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I would be happy to engage you in debate over whether the sacrifice of an innocent played a role in the development of Judaic law, but you are not an honest debater. You don't have the strength of character to grant a debate opponent a point earned, as I've learned.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Which innocent?
> I have no clue as to who you are referring.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> We could start with the appalling story of Abraham willing to sacrifice his son to please "god".
Click to expand...

You mean God, the creator and sustainer of existence, asking a 100+ year old Avraham to offer his healthy 37 year old son as a sacrifice and his 37 year old son, who believes in God and is a prophet, goes along with God’s request?
Yeah, we can discuss that.


----------



## Weatherman2020

cnelsen said:


> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> cnelsen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> cnelsen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> 
> Who wasn’t expecting to die.
> And yet, without dying, your religion wouldn’t exist.
> 
> 
> 
> The sacrificial reading of the New Testament is an unfortunate holdover from the barbarism of Judaism. I don't subscribe to the idea that a real God would demand the shedding of innocent blood. "Sacrifice" is as ignorant and primitive an idea as the absurdity that any real God would have a "chosen people".
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Please explain the barbarism of Judaism.
> It is virtually impossible in Jewish law to find someone guilty of a capital crime.
> I understand you do not know the complexities of Jewish law and arriving at a guilty verdict.
> In the meantime, the RCC was using the Roman Empire to murder at will.
> So much for Catholicism being the religion of love.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I would be happy to engage you in debate over whether the sacrifice of an innocent played a role in the development of Judaic law, but you are not an honest debater. You don't have the strength of character to grant a debate opponent a point earned, as I've learned.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Which innocent?
> I have no clue as to who you are referring.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> We could start with the appalling story of Abraham willing to sacrifice his son to please "god".
Click to expand...

Obviously a poser troll.

You atheist freak haters are hilarious.


----------



## Weatherman2020

Humanity said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> It is Arabs-Moslems who are instigating hostilities.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And the Palestinian who was shot BEFORE the march whilst working on his land?
> 
> Ah, the IDF didn't like the way he was digging I guess!
Click to expand...

Yeah, poor farmer was simply digging under a fence to get to the property next door.  The nation of Israel.


----------



## Humanity

Shusha said:


> Humanity said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> It is Arabs-Moslems who are instigating hostilities.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And the Palestinian who was shot BEFORE the march whilst working on his land?
> 
> Ah, the IDF didn't like the way he was digging I guess!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No, the IDF did not like the way he was digging with his accomplice UNDER the fence.
> 
> Tell me, why would a farmer be digging UNDER a fence?
Click to expand...


You have evidence of this?


----------



## Humanity

Hollie said:


> Humanity said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> It is Arabs-Moslems who are instigating hostilities.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And the Palestinian who was shot BEFORE the march whilst working on his land?
> 
> Ah, the IDF didn't like the way he was digging I guess!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Whilst you have personal knowledge of the facts surrounding that event, please share those facts.
Click to expand...


Already done... Check back through previous comments.


----------



## Hollie

Humanity said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Humanity said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> It is Arabs-Moslems who are instigating hostilities.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And the Palestinian who was shot BEFORE the march whilst working on his land?
> 
> Ah, the IDF didn't like the way he was digging I guess!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Whilst you have personal knowledge of the facts surrounding that event, please share those facts.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Already done... Check back through previous comments.
Click to expand...


I checked back through the thread. Posts 33, 53, 60 and 142 are attributed to you. I found no presentation of facts or verifiable data was offered.

What facts can you share?


----------



## RetiredGySgt

Again for all the pal lovers in this thread, the dead MEN all were using slingshots and throwing firebombs both weapons of war. They were not innocent of anything.


----------



## Shusha

Humanity said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Humanity said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> It is Arabs-Moslems who are instigating hostilities.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And the Palestinian who was shot BEFORE the march whilst working on his land?
> 
> Ah, the IDF didn't like the way he was digging I guess!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No, the IDF did not like the way he was digging with his accomplice UNDER the fence.
> 
> Tell me, why would a farmer be digging UNDER a fence?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You have evidence of this?
Click to expand...


_The army said that the “two suspects approached the perimeter fence… and engaged in suspicious behavior on the ground alongside it. In response, an IDF unit fired at them with a tank.”  _Source

Now.  Where is your condemnation of the acts of violence committed by Gaza?


----------



## RoccoR

RE:  Israeli forces shoot unarmed protesters from across Gaza security fence, killing at least 15
※→  P F Tinmore,  et al,

Attacks!  Certainly, that is one point of view; not necessarily



P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> 
> Technically, the Arab Palestine did not exist in the sense of a competent government. Therefore, technically, they cannot be considered defeated.
> 
> 
> 
> Indeed, but Israel's attacks on the Palestinians continue.
Click to expand...

*(COMMENT)*

The views held by the Arab Palestinians, and some members of the Arab Military Coalition, are a product of revisionist influence.

I'm having some difficulty looking for a military engagement by the Israeli Defense Force _(post 15 May 48)_ which does not fall under Article 2(4) -&- Article 51...  It is not Israel using threats or  force against the territorial integrity or political independence of the Arab Palestinians,

Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## P F Tinmore

RoccoR said:


> “the international boundary between Israel and Lebanon was established pursuant to the 1923 Agreement between France and Great Britain ...”,


Uhhhh, there was no Israel in 1923.


----------



## PredFan

montelatici said:


> Nice people those Israeli Jews.
> 
> Israeli forces shoot unarmed protesters from across Gaza security fence, killing at least 15



Good.


----------



## P F Tinmore

RoccoR said:


> RE:  Israeli forces shoot unarmed protesters from across Gaza security fence, killing at least 15
> ※→  P F Tinmore,  et al,
> 
> Attacks!  Certainly, that is one point of view; not necessarily
> 
> 
> 
> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> 
> Technically, the Arab Palestine did not exist in the sense of a competent government. Therefore, technically, they cannot be considered defeated.
> 
> 
> 
> Indeed, but Israel's attacks on the Palestinians continue.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> *(COMMENT)*
> 
> The views held by the Arab Palestinians, and some members of the Arab Military Coalition, are a product of revisionist influence.
> 
> I'm having some difficulty looking for a military engagement by the Israeli Defense Force _(post 15 May 48)_ which does not fall under Article 2(4) -&- Article 51...  It is not Israel using threats or  force against the territorial integrity or political independence of the Arab Palestinians,
> 
> Most Respectfully,
> R
Click to expand...

Who attacked whom?


----------



## Tilly

Hollie said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> 
> Technically, the Arab Palestine did not exist in the sense of a competent government. Therefore, technically, they cannot be considered defeated.
> 
> 
> 
> Indeed, but Israel's attacks on the Palestinians continue.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> What we're seeing is precisely the opposite of your ill-informed banter.
> 
> It is Arabs-Moslems who are instigating hostilities. Does the prayer leader at your madrassah write the nonsense you cut and paste?
Click to expand...

I just don’t understand how anyone can call this an attack on pals.  I don’t think any of the posters here are stupid enough to believe that, therefore it’s deliberate lying.  Why they bother when anyone with two brain cells to rub together can see exactly what has happened here, with Hamas again using people and their deaths for propaganda purposes, is also beyond me <sigh>


----------



## P F Tinmore

Hollie said:


> Humanity said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> It is Arabs-Moslems who are instigating hostilities.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And the Palestinian who was shot BEFORE the march whilst working on his land?
> 
> Ah, the IDF didn't like the way he was digging I guess!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Whilst you have personal knowledge of the facts surrounding that event, please share those facts.
Click to expand...

Israel has a long history in shooting at unarmed farmers. There is no reason to believe that Israel is not doing it again.


----------



## P F Tinmore

RoccoR said:


> There are three sets of documents that contain the Internationally recognized boundary. You may choose to ignore them, but each is on file with the UN.
> 
> Egypt-Israel peace treaty (26 March 1979)
> 
> The Jordan-Israeli Peace Treaty (1994)


Interesting because in the 1949 armistice agreements with Egypt and Jordan (that Israel signed) the UN called the Negev Palestine. When did that change so that Israel could claim borders on that land?


----------



## Hollie

P F Tinmore said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Humanity said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> It is Arabs-Moslems who are instigating hostilities.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And the Palestinian who was shot BEFORE the march whilst working on his land?
> 
> Ah, the IDF didn't like the way he was digging I guess!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Whilst you have personal knowledge of the facts surrounding that event, please share those facts.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Israel has a long history in shooting at unarmed farmers. There is no reason to believe that Israel is not doing it again.
Click to expand...


I understand your long history of Jew hatreds which is why your unsupported claims are not taken seriously.


----------



## P F Tinmore

Hollie said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Humanity said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> It is Arabs-Moslems who are instigating hostilities.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And the Palestinian who was shot BEFORE the march whilst working on his land?
> 
> Ah, the IDF didn't like the way he was digging I guess!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Whilst you have personal knowledge of the facts surrounding that event, please share those facts.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Israel has a long history in shooting at unarmed farmers. There is no reason to believe that Israel is not doing it again.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I understand your long history of Jew hatreds which is why your unsupported claims are not taken seriously.
Click to expand...

israel shoots farmer - Google Search


----------



## Hollie

P F Tinmore said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Humanity said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> It is Arabs-Moslems who are instigating hostilities.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And the Palestinian who was shot BEFORE the march whilst working on his land?
> 
> Ah, the IDF didn't like the way he was digging I guess!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Whilst you have personal knowledge of the facts surrounding that event, please share those facts.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Israel has a long history in shooting at unarmed farmers. There is no reason to believe that Israel is not doing it again.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I understand your long history of Jew hatreds which is why your unsupported claims are not taken seriously.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> israel shoots farmer - Google Search
Click to expand...



Palestinian farmer in Gaza killed by Israeli army

Mar 3, 2018 · Mohammed Atta Abdel Mawla was killed by Israeli forces in the besieged Gaza Strip after he allegedly entered a 'forbidden zone'.


----------



## Shusha

P F Tinmore said:


> Israel has a long history in shooting at unarmed farmers. There is no reason to believe that Israel is not doing it again.



And, of course, there is no history at all of Palestinians using violence.  /sarcasm


----------



## Hollie

Gee whiz. Those poor, misunderstood “_Peaceful Inner Strugglers_”™️


Israel Highlights Armed Assaults by Palestinian Terror Groups During Gaza Border Protest

Israel has continued to push back firmly against Palestinian claims that the IDF used excessive force after a protest march on the Gaza-Israel border last Friday turned violent, stressing that terrorist groups had deliberately provoked a confrontation.

On Monday, the Palestinian Health Ministry claimed that the death of a 29-year-old demonstrator raised the Palestinian toll to 18 killed and more than 700 wounded. Israel has pointed out that at least ten of those killed were members of terrorist groups.

Eight of the dead men belonged to Hamas — the Islamist faction that has ruled in Gaza since 2007 — while the other two belonged respectively to the Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigade, affiliated with Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas’ Fatah movement, and the Palestinian branch of Islamic Jihad.



Gee whiz. Peaceful Inner Strugglers from various franchises of 
_Islamic Terrorism Intl. Inc_.: Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigade, Hamas and Islamic Gee-had. 

I’m sure they were in attendance to hand out coffee and donuts falafel, make everyone comfortable and assist with crowd safety.


----------



## RoccoR

RE:  Israeli forces shoot unarmed protesters from across Gaza security fence, killing at least 15
※→  P F Tinmore,  et at,

Now your are just being stubborn!  As usual,  you are clinging to a century old past reality.  No matter what you would like to believe is true, ⇒ what counts is only that solutions are crafted by the reality of day.

There are few solutions to societal conflicts that can be applied universally or are valid indefinitely.  Adaptation is the key.



P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> 
> “the international boundary between Israel and Lebanon was established pursuant to the 1923 Agreement between France and Great Britain ...”,
> 
> 
> 
> Uhhhh, there was no Israel in 1923.
Click to expand...

*(COMMENT)*

Yes, in 1923, there was no Israel as an active government; that is stating the obvious.  BUT in the 21st Century, the UN and Lebanon _(as well as other)_ have agreed to maintain the boundary as stipulated.

BUT, relative to our discussion, all that needs to be understood is that there is a recognized boundary between Lebanon and Israel.  Israel has boundaries. 

In the current century, solving international disputes, including territorial disputes and problems concerning frontiers, is a demand for the 21st Century Solutions.  This means to learn from the past, but apply the lessons to the progressive development and codification of the principles of international law concerning political and diplomatic relations on an international scale.

Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## P F Tinmore

RoccoR said:


> Yes, in 1923, there was no Israel as an active government; that is stating the obvious. BUT in the 21st Century, the UN and Lebanon _(as well as other)_ have agreed to maintain the boundary as stipulated.


The UN used a green line in 1949 and a blue line in 2000 because Israel has no border there.


----------



## Shusha

P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, in 1923, there was no Israel as an active government; that is stating the obvious. BUT in the 21st Century, the UN and Lebanon _(as well as other)_ have agreed to maintain the boundary as stipulated.
> 
> 
> 
> The UN used a green line in 1949 and a blue line in 2000 because Israel has no border there.
Click to expand...


Oh, come on, Tinmore.  If there is no border between Lebanon and Israel then there is no border between Lebanon and Palestine.  What argument do you always use when discussing the borders of "Palestine"?


----------



## P F Tinmore

Shusha said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, in 1923, there was no Israel as an active government; that is stating the obvious. BUT in the 21st Century, the UN and Lebanon _(as well as other)_ have agreed to maintain the boundary as stipulated.
> 
> 
> 
> The UN used a green line in 1949 and a blue line in 2000 because Israel has no border there.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Oh, come on, Tinmore.  If there is no border between Lebanon and Israel then there is no border between Lebanon and Palestine.  What argument do you always use when discussing the borders of "Palestine"?
Click to expand...

Can you provide proof for what you say or are you just blowing smoke out your ass again?


----------



## Shusha

P F Tinmore said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, in 1923, there was no Israel as an active government; that is stating the obvious. BUT in the 21st Century, the UN and Lebanon _(as well as other)_ have agreed to maintain the boundary as stipulated.
> 
> 
> 
> The UN used a green line in 1949 and a blue line in 2000 because Israel has no border there.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Oh, come on, Tinmore.  If there is no border between Lebanon and Israel then there is no border between Lebanon and Palestine.  What argument do you always use when discussing the borders of "Palestine"?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Can you provide proof for what you say or are you just blowing smoke out your ass again?
Click to expand...


Oh please.  So are you admitting that "Palestine" has no borders?  If not, where did those borders come from?


----------



## cnelsen

Indeependent said:


> cnelsen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> cnelsen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> cnelsen said:
> 
> 
> 
> The sacrificial reading of the New Testament is an unfortunate holdover from the barbarism of Judaism. I don't subscribe to the idea that a real God would demand the shedding of innocent blood. "Sacrifice" is as ignorant and primitive an idea as the absurdity that any real God would have a "chosen people".
> 
> 
> 
> Please explain the barbarism of Judaism.
> It is virtually impossible in Jewish law to find someone guilty of a capital crime.
> I understand you do not know the complexities of Jewish law and arriving at a guilty verdict.
> In the meantime, the RCC was using the Roman Empire to murder at will.
> So much for Catholicism being the religion of love.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I would be happy to engage you in debate over whether the sacrifice of an innocent played a role in the development of Judaic law, but you are not an honest debater. You don't have the strength of character to grant a debate opponent a point earned, as I've learned.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Which innocent?
> I have no clue as to who you are referring.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> We could start with the appalling story of Abraham willing to sacrifice his son to please "god".
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You mean God, the creator and sustainer of existence, asking a 100+ year old Avraham to offer his healthy 37 year old son as a sacrifice and his 37 year old son, who believes in God and is a prophet, goes along with God’s request?
> Yeah, we can discuss that.
Click to expand...


Alright, you worship a God one of whose attributes is a demand to be appeased by the shedding of innocent blood. Appalling, primitive, and indefensible. Your turn.


----------



## cnelsen

Weatherman2020 said:


> cnelsen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> cnelsen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> cnelsen said:
> 
> 
> 
> The sacrificial reading of the New Testament is an unfortunate holdover from the barbarism of Judaism. I don't subscribe to the idea that a real God would demand the shedding of innocent blood. "Sacrifice" is as ignorant and primitive an idea as the absurdity that any real God would have a "chosen people".
> 
> 
> 
> Please explain the barbarism of Judaism.
> It is virtually impossible in Jewish law to find someone guilty of a capital crime.
> I understand you do not know the complexities of Jewish law and arriving at a guilty verdict.
> In the meantime, the RCC was using the Roman Empire to murder at will.
> So much for Catholicism being the religion of love.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I would be happy to engage you in debate over whether the sacrifice of an innocent played a role in the development of Judaic law, but you are not an honest debater. You don't have the strength of character to grant a debate opponent a point earned, as I've learned.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Which innocent?
> I have no clue as to who you are referring.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> We could start with the appalling story of Abraham willing to sacrifice his son to please "god".
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Obviously a poser troll.
> 
> You atheist freak haters are hilarious.
> 
> View attachment 185943
Click to expand...

I believe in God. I just don't believe in magic books.


----------



## Shusha

cnelsen said:


> Alright, you worship a God one of whose attributes is a demand to be appeased by the shedding of innocent blood. Appalling, primitive, and indefensible. Your turn.



Your understanding of Judaism is faulty.  G-d requires no such appeasement.  But check Christianity for that.


----------



## Weatherman2020

cnelsen said:


> Weatherman2020 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> cnelsen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> cnelsen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> 
> Please explain the barbarism of Judaism.
> It is virtually impossible in Jewish law to find someone guilty of a capital crime.
> I understand you do not know the complexities of Jewish law and arriving at a guilty verdict.
> In the meantime, the RCC was using the Roman Empire to murder at will.
> So much for Catholicism being the religion of love.
> 
> 
> 
> I would be happy to engage you in debate over whether the sacrifice of an innocent played a role in the development of Judaic law, but you are not an honest debater. You don't have the strength of character to grant a debate opponent a point earned, as I've learned.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Which innocent?
> I have no clue as to who you are referring.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> We could start with the appalling story of Abraham willing to sacrifice his son to please "god".
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Obviously a poser troll.
> 
> You atheist freak haters are hilarious.
> 
> View attachment 185943
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I believe in God. I just don't believe in magic books.
Click to expand...

So? Satan believes in God too. And from your posts, looks like you agree with him a lot.


----------



## RoccoR

RE  Israeli forces shoot unarmed protesters from across Gaza security fence, killing at least 15
※→ P F Tinmore, et al,

WoW.  You just don't get it.



P F Tinmore said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, in 1923, there was no Israel as an active government; that is stating the obvious. BUT in the 21st Century, the UN and Lebanon _(as well as others)_ have agreed to maintain the boundary as stipulated.
> 
> 
> 
> The UN used a green line in 1949 and a blue line in 2000 because Israel has no border there.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Oh, come on, Tinmore.  If there is no border between Lebanon and Israel then there is no border between Lebanon and Palestine.  What argument do you always use when discussing the borders of "Palestine"?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Can you provide proof for what you say or are you just blowing smoke out your ass again?
Click to expand...

*(COMMENT)*

Whatever name you want to call it, the demarcation is treated IAW A/RES/25/2625.  You may not respect it, but then, most of the civilized world gets it.  But it is people that don't get it that fight for the wrong reason.  

Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## P F Tinmore

RoccoR said:


> RE  Israeli forces shoot unarmed protesters from across Gaza security fence, killing at least 15
> ※→ P F Tinmore, et al,
> 
> WoW.  You just don't get it.
> 
> 
> 
> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, in 1923, there was no Israel as an active government; that is stating the obvious. BUT in the 21st Century, the UN and Lebanon _(as well as others)_ have agreed to maintain the boundary as stipulated.
> 
> 
> 
> The UN used a green line in 1949 and a blue line in 2000 because Israel has no border there.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Oh, come on, Tinmore.  If there is no border between Lebanon and Israel then there is no border between Lebanon and Palestine.  What argument do you always use when discussing the borders of "Palestine"?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Can you provide proof for what you say or are you just blowing smoke out your ass again?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> *(COMMENT)*
> 
> Whatever name you want to call it, the demarcation is treated IAW A/RES/25/2625.  You may not respect it, but then, most of the civilized world gets it.  But it is people that don't get it that fight for the wrong reason.
> 
> Most Respectfully,
> R
Click to expand...

What are you trying to get at?


----------



## Billo_Really

Weatherman2020 said:


> Oh goody, yet another lefty atheist who thinks she’s a theologian.


No fuckface, I'm a white Irish Catholic who thinks all this chosen crap is a bunch of bullshit.  God would not choose a bunch of narcissistic assholes, who run around acting like their shit don't stink.

If God were to choose, he'd choose the Palestinian's.


----------



## HenryBHough

Only 15?

These younger troops just don't have the edge their forebears had......


----------



## cnelsen

Shusha said:


> cnelsen said:
> 
> 
> 
> Alright, you worship a God one of whose attributes is a demand to be appeased by the shedding of innocent blood. Appalling, primitive, and indefensible. Your turn.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Your understanding of Judaism is faulty.  G-d requires no such appeasement.  But check Christianity for that.
Click to expand...

Really? Sacrifice--the shedding of innocent blood as a means of atonement--plays no role in the development of Judaism?


----------



## cnelsen

Weatherman2020 said:


> cnelsen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Weatherman2020 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> cnelsen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> cnelsen said:
> 
> 
> 
> I would be happy to engage you in debate over whether the sacrifice of an innocent played a role in the development of Judaic law, but you are not an honest debater. You don't have the strength of character to grant a debate opponent a point earned, as I've learned.
> 
> 
> 
> Which innocent?
> I have no clue as to who you are referring.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> We could start with the appalling story of Abraham willing to sacrifice his son to please "god".
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Obviously a poser troll.
> 
> You atheist freak haters are hilarious.
> 
> View attachment 185943
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I believe in God. I just don't believe in magic books.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> So? Satan believes in God too. And from your posts, looks like you agree with him a lot.
Click to expand...

Go away, little boy.


----------



## Shusha

cnelsen said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> cnelsen said:
> 
> 
> 
> Alright, you worship a God one of whose attributes is a demand to be appeased by the shedding of innocent blood. Appalling, primitive, and indefensible. Your turn.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Your understanding of Judaism is faulty.  G-d requires no such appeasement.  But check Christianity for that.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Really? Sacrifice--the shedding of innocent blood as a means of atonement--plays no role in the development of Judaism?
Click to expand...


The shedding of blood is not the means of atonement (and certainly not the ONLY means of atonement).  Nor is it required to achieve atonement. (And you don't even understand what atonement means).  Those are all Christian thoughts.  Not Jewish ones.


----------



## cnelsen

Shusha said:


> cnelsen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> cnelsen said:
> 
> 
> 
> Alright, you worship a God one of whose attributes is a demand to be appeased by the shedding of innocent blood. Appalling, primitive, and indefensible. Your turn.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Your understanding of Judaism is faulty.  G-d requires no such appeasement.  But check Christianity for that.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Really? Sacrifice--the shedding of innocent blood as a means of atonement--plays no role in the development of Judaism?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The shedding of blood is not the means of atonement (and certainly not the ONLY means of atonement).  Nor is it required to achieve atonement. (And you don't even understand what atonement means).  Those are all Christian thoughts.  Not Jewish ones.
Click to expand...


Then why don't you explain it to me. Start with Leviticus 17

For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.​


----------



## Indeependent

cnelsen said:


> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> cnelsen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> cnelsen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> 
> Please explain the barbarism of Judaism.
> It is virtually impossible in Jewish law to find someone guilty of a capital crime.
> I understand you do not know the complexities of Jewish law and arriving at a guilty verdict.
> In the meantime, the RCC was using the Roman Empire to murder at will.
> So much for Catholicism being the religion of love.
> 
> 
> 
> I would be happy to engage you in debate over whether the sacrifice of an innocent played a role in the development of Judaic law, but you are not an honest debater. You don't have the strength of character to grant a debate opponent a point earned, as I've learned.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Which innocent?
> I have no clue as to who you are referring.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> We could start with the appalling story of Abraham willing to sacrifice his son to please "god".
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You mean God, the creator and sustainer of existence, asking a 100+ year old Avraham to offer his healthy 37 year old son as a sacrifice and his 37 year old son, who believes in God and is a prophet, goes along with God’s request?
> Yeah, we can discuss that.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Alright, you worship a God one of whose attributes is a demand to be appeased by the shedding of innocent blood. Appalling, primitive, and indefensible. Your turn.
Click to expand...

Thanks for admitting you know nothing.
Now go study the Torah and come back in 5 years.


----------



## Indeependent

cnelsen said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> cnelsen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> cnelsen said:
> 
> 
> 
> Alright, you worship a God one of whose attributes is a demand to be appeased by the shedding of innocent blood. Appalling, primitive, and indefensible. Your turn.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Your understanding of Judaism is faulty.  G-d requires no such appeasement.  But check Christianity for that.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Really? Sacrifice--the shedding of innocent blood as a means of atonement--plays no role in the development of Judaism?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The shedding of blood is not the means of atonement (and certainly not the ONLY means of atonement).  Nor is it required to achieve atonement. (And you don't even understand what atonement means).  Those are all Christian thoughts.  Not Jewish ones.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Then why don't you explain it to me. Start with Leviticus 17
> 
> For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.​
Click to expand...

I have a better idea...start from Genesis 1:1.
You know, context.


----------



## Indeependent

cnelsen said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> cnelsen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> cnelsen said:
> 
> 
> 
> Alright, you worship a God one of whose attributes is a demand to be appeased by the shedding of innocent blood. Appalling, primitive, and indefensible. Your turn.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Your understanding of Judaism is faulty.  G-d requires no such appeasement.  But check Christianity for that.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Really? Sacrifice--the shedding of innocent blood as a means of atonement--plays no role in the development of Judaism?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The shedding of blood is not the means of atonement (and certainly not the ONLY means of atonement).  Nor is it required to achieve atonement. (And you don't even understand what atonement means).  Those are all Christian thoughts.  Not Jewish ones.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Then why don't you explain it to me. Start with Leviticus 17
> 
> For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.​
Click to expand...

There is no sacrifice for a trespass committed intentionally.
The unintentional sin offering is to remind you to keep on your toes the next time around.
Continue reading verses out of context as you're very good at it.


----------



## Shusha

cnelsen said:


> Then why don't you explain it to me. Start with Leviticus 17
> 
> For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.​



What?!  You pulled Leviticus 17:11 out of your Christian hat in order to "prove" your case?!  I'm shocked!  Never have I EVER had a Christian quote that passage about blood!  What am I to DO?!  /sarcasm  (Somehow, I feel like this is NOT your first rodeo and you are well-practiced at cherry-picking Judaism through a Christian lens and attacking with it.  But, look, if you are genuinely ignorant about Torah, I apologize for the sarcasm.  And I would be happy to assist you in learning, with what little I can help you with.)

Leviticus 17:11 is a prohibition on the consumption of blood.  It prohibits the use of blood for nutrition.  Its does not describe the process by which one is brought into rightness with G-d.  There are dozens of examples in Torah of being right with G-d that have nothing to do with blood.  Even one of those is enough to prove that you have it wrong.

This thread, however, is about the current events in Gaza and this will be my last response on the topic of blood and atonement.  If you want to talk more about blood and atonement, start a thread on one of the religious boards and tag me.  I'll join you there.  (Though, seriously, this is an easy one, requiring no nuance at all and the reading of only a few passages of Torah.  I'd suggest you just google it.)


----------



## cnelsen

Shusha said:


> This thread, however, is about the current events in Gaza and this will be my last response on the topic of blood and atonement.


Haha, I accept your surrender.


----------



## Humanity

Weatherman2020 said:


> Humanity said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> It is Arabs-Moslems who are instigating hostilities.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And the Palestinian who was shot BEFORE the march whilst working on his land?
> 
> Ah, the IDF didn't like the way he was digging I guess!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Yeah, poor farmer was simply digging under a fence to get to the property next door.  The nation of Israel.
Click to expand...


Still waiting to see any proof of this


----------



## Humanity

Shusha said:


> Humanity said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Humanity said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> It is Arabs-Moslems who are instigating hostilities.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And the Palestinian who was shot BEFORE the march whilst working on his land?
> 
> Ah, the IDF didn't like the way he was digging I guess!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No, the IDF did not like the way he was digging with his accomplice UNDER the fence.
> 
> Tell me, why would a farmer be digging UNDER a fence?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You have evidence of this?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> _The army said that the “two suspects approached the perimeter fence… and engaged in suspicious behavior on the ground alongside it. In response, an IDF unit fired at them with a tank.”  _Source
> 
> Now.  Where is your condemnation of the acts of violence committed by Gaza?
Click to expand...


"Witnesses said he was working his land near the border when the shells hit."

The army said that the “two suspects approached the perimeter fence… and engaged in suspicious behavior on the ground alongside it. In response, an IDF unit fired at them with a tank.”

Just two segments from your link...

Is shelling "*suspects*" with tanks normal behavior for a civilized nation?


----------



## Shusha

Humanity said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Humanity said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Humanity said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> It is Arabs-Moslems who are instigating hostilities.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And the Palestinian who was shot BEFORE the march whilst working on his land?
> 
> Ah, the IDF didn't like the way he was digging I guess!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No, the IDF did not like the way he was digging with his accomplice UNDER the fence.
> 
> Tell me, why would a farmer be digging UNDER a fence?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You have evidence of this?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> _The army said that the “two suspects approached the perimeter fence… and engaged in suspicious behavior on the ground alongside it. In response, an IDF unit fired at them with a tank.”  _Source
> 
> Now.  Where is your condemnation of the acts of violence committed by Gaza?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> "Witnesses said he was working his land near the border when the shells hit."
> 
> The army said that the “two suspects approached the perimeter fence… and engaged in suspicious behavior on the ground alongside it. In response, an IDF unit fired at them with a tank.”
> 
> Just two segments from your link...
> 
> Is shelling "*suspects*" with tanks normal behavior for a civilized nation?
Click to expand...



Is planting bombs?


Why won't you condemn Palestinian violence?


----------



## Shusha

cnelsen said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> This thread, however, is about the current events in Gaza and this will be my last response on the topic of blood and atonement.
> 
> 
> 
> Haha, I accept your surrender.
Click to expand...


Lol.  Too 

 to start a thread on the proper board, huh?


----------



## cnelsen

Shusha said:


> cnelsen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> This thread, however, is about the current events in Gaza and this will be my last response on the topic of blood and atonement.
> 
> 
> 
> Haha, I accept your surrender.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Lol.  Too View attachment 186105 to start a thread on the proper board, huh?
Click to expand...

What are you. 12? That's ok. Go back to worshiping your bloodthirsty vengeance-freak. I long ago learned few Jews have the strength of character to concede a point, let alone admit blame.


----------



## Indeependent

cnelsen said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> cnelsen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> This thread, however, is about the current events in Gaza and this will be my last response on the topic of blood and atonement.
> 
> 
> 
> Haha, I accept your surrender.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Lol.  Too View attachment 186105 to start a thread on the proper board, huh?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> What are you. 12? That's ok. Go back to worshiping your bloodthirsty vengeance-freak. I long ago learned few Jews have the strength of character to concede a point, let alone admit blame.
Click to expand...

The fact that the Arabs are multiplying like rabbits is proof enough.


----------



## Shusha

cnelsen said:


> ... I long ago learned few Jews have the strength of character to concede a point ....



Yeah, and I know too many Christians who drop a cherry-picked verse, declare victory and vanish.


----------



## cnelsen

Shusha said:


> cnelsen said:
> 
> 
> 
> ... I long ago learned few Jews have the strength of character to concede a point ....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, and I know too many Christians who drop a cherry-picked verse, declare victory and vanish.
Click to expand...

Still no actual argument, I see. Why not show some integrity?  Just say, Yes, I was wrong. Blood sacrifice is an element of Judaism. 

And to really impress me, you can add, "*Yes, you are right. Indeependent is a sniveling little rat-animal."*


----------



## RoccoR

RE  Israeli forces shoot unarmed protesters from across Gaza security fence, killing at least 15
※→  cnelsen,

Wow, what is this nonsense.  You tend to cast a shadow over your credibility when you do this.



cnelsen said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> cnelsen said:
> 
> 
> 
> ... I long ago learned few Jews have the strength of character to concede a point ....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, and I know too many Christians who drop a cherry-picked verse, declare victory and vanish.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Still no actual argument, I see. Why not show some integrity?  Just say, Yes, I was wrong. Blood sacrifice is an element of Judaism.
> 
> And to really impress me, you can add, "*Yes, you are right. Indeependent is a sniveling little rat-animal."*
Click to expand...

*(OUTSIDE OBSERVATION)*




 ​
Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## Indeependent

cnelsen said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> cnelsen said:
> 
> 
> 
> ... I long ago learned few Jews have the strength of character to concede a point ....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, and I know too many Christians who drop a cherry-picked verse, declare victory and vanish.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Still no actual argument, I see. Why not show some integrity?  Just say, Yes, I was wrong. Blood sacrifice is an element of Judaism.
> 
> And to really impress me, you can add, "*Yes, you are right. Indeependent is a sniveling little rat-animal."*
Click to expand...

You are correct...
You have presented no real arguments; just dumb-ass out of context verses.
But that’s Christinity for you!


----------



## cnelsen

Indeependent said:


> cnelsen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> cnelsen said:
> 
> 
> 
> ... I long ago learned few Jews have the strength of character to concede a point ....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, and I know too many Christians who drop a cherry-picked verse, declare victory and vanish.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Still no actual argument, I see. Why not show some integrity?  Just say, Yes, I was wrong. Blood sacrifice is an element of Judaism.
> 
> And to really impress me, you can add, "*Yes, you are right. Indeependent is a sniveling little rat-animal."*
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You are correct...
> You have presented no real arguments; just dumb-ass out of context verses.
> But that’s Christinity for you!
Click to expand...

You claimed blood sacrifice was not an element of Judaism. I cited a verse from your holy book showing it clearly is. You respond that I've presented no argument. LOL, ok, then, sonny.


----------



## RoccoR

RE:  Israeli forces shoot unarmed protesters from across Gaza security fence, killing at least 15 
※→  et al,

I'm still trying to visualize the connection you are making here, relative to the topic at hand.


Is there a question in all this?
Is there an allagationin all this?
Is there a pattern of behavior we should be able to see?

What is it you are trying to convey???

Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## Indeependent

cnelsen said:


> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> cnelsen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> cnelsen said:
> 
> 
> 
> ... I long ago learned few Jews have the strength of character to concede a point ....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, and I know too many Christians who drop a cherry-picked verse, declare victory and vanish.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Still no actual argument, I see. Why not show some integrity?  Just say, Yes, I was wrong. Blood sacrifice is an element of Judaism.
> 
> And to really impress me, you can add, "*Yes, you are right. Indeependent is a sniveling little rat-animal."*
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You are correct...
> You have presented no real arguments; just dumb-ass out of context verses.
> But that’s Christinity for you!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You claimed blood sacrifice was not an element of Judaism. I cited a verse from your holy book showing it clearly is. You respond that I've presented no argument. LOL, ok, then, sonny.
Click to expand...

You cited a verse...
Read the prior 2 verses and following 2 verses and learn how your “religion” trains you to read out of context.


----------



## Shusha

cnelsen said:


> You claimed blood sacrifice was not an element of Judaism. I cited a verse from your holy book showing it clearly is. You respond that I've presented no argument. LOL, ok, then, sonny.



Funny how we've gone from "G-d needs appeasing which can only be obtained by the shedding of innocent blood"  to "blood sacrifice was not an element of Judaism".

One of your early posts was:



cnelsen said:


> ... I don't subscribe to the idea that a real God would demand the shedding of innocent blood. ...



Hey, guess what.  Neither do Jews.  It really is that simple.


----------



## Shusha

RoccoR said:


> ...
> What is it you are trying to convey???
> 
> Most Respectfully,
> R



That Jews murder innocent people because ... Joooooooos.  

And that its okay to lie to present Jews as evil because ... Joooooooos.


The question that should be asked is what (objectively) is the correct moral and legal response to a protest/riot of many thousands of people at your "border" who:


reject your right to sovereignty of any kind
declare the intent to remove your sovereignty
permit, at the least and incite, at the worst, acts of violence, cross "border"
threaten escalated action
hold you responsible for any measures taken
call on the international community to condemn you for any measures taken
demonize you for any measures taken


----------



## RoccoR

"RE:  Israeli forces shoot unarmed protesters from across Gaza security fence, killing at least 15
※→  Shusha, et al,

This topic of "sacrifice" (Human Sacrifice is so very different from Blood Atonement) is only problematic for the analyst that has only a self-taught insight.

Human Sacrifice is not found anywhere in written history as a ritualist practice of the Jewish People.   I was just reading in the (so-called) "Watcher Files that they said:  "The knowledge of Jewish ritual murder is thousands of years old. It is as old as the Jews themselves. Non-Jews have passed the knowledge of it from generation to generation, and it has been passed down to us thorough writings." 



Shusha said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...
> What is it you are trying to convey???
> 
> Most Respectfully,
> R
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That Jews murder innocent people because ... Joooooooos.
> 
> And that its okay to lie to present Jews as evil because ... Joooooooos.
> 
> 
> The question that should be asked is what (objectively) is the correct moral and legal response to a protest/riot of many thousands of people at your "border" who:
> 
> 
> reject your right to sovereignty of any kind
> declare the intent to remove your sovereignty
> permit, at the least and incite, at the worst, acts of violence, cross "border"
> threaten escalated action
> hold you responsible for any measures taken
> call on the international community to condemn you for any measures taken
> demonize you for any measures taken
Click to expand...

*(POINT TO REMEMBER)*

The first *Hebrew* was (of course) Abraham.  Thus we say, "the God" of Abraham."

Jacob, at least a grandson down the chain of descendants, was the first *Israelite*. 

Between 850 and 750 BC, one son of Jacob, from Judah, coined the phrase "*Jew" *or *"Jewish*."  This was a result of the elimination and destruction of all the other tribal leaders of descendants of Abraham.

In order to tie a Ritualistic Practice of Self-Sacrifice (not atonement) by Jews →  one would have to find something newer than the time of Jacob's son _(having an origin within the last 3000 years)_; going no further back that the House of Judah _(one of three remaining tribes out of the twelve)_.  The House of Israel, not existing today, having been decimated about two-and-a-half centuries ago. 





 ​
*(COMMENT)*

You would be hard-pressed to find the ritualist killing of the innocent in Mosaic Law (Law of Moses).  AND surely nothing ongoing in the Middle East by the Israelis has anything to do with "Ritualistic Sacrifice and Murder) as promoted by religious law.  The is is a peace of propaganda to demonize the Jewish State of Israel and the attempt to discredit Israeli right to sovereignty and territorial integrity.  

I am of the opinion that Arab Palestinians are making an all-out-effort to slander the Establishment of the Jewish State with such ridiculous ideas.  This is not so dissimilar to the "baby Killing" labels used on is during the Vietnam War.

Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## Shusha

RoccoR said:


> I am of the opinion that Arab Palestinians are making an all-out-effort to slander the Establishment of the Jewish State with such ridiculous ideas.  This is not so dissimilar to the "baby Killing" labels used on is during the Vietnam War.
> 
> Most Respectfully,
> R



We agree.  I might argue that the all-out-effort is not so much to slander the establishment of the Jewish State as it is to slander Jews and Jewish-ness in general.  

It is extremely troubling that both the PA and Hamas seemed to be emboldened at the moment to make increasingly extremist and outrageous claims and statements.  Some of them, and I am aware of the irony here, about the necessity of "blood sacrifice" in order to further their political goals.

My sense of this (and I've expressed this before) is that there is an increasing polarization in the Islamic/Arabic world.  Arab Palestinian leadership appears to be declaring a side.


----------



## cnelsen

RoccoR said:


> "RE:  Israeli forces shoot unarmed protesters from across Gaza security fence, killing at least 15
> ※→  Shusha, et al,
> 
> This topic of "sacrifice" (Human Sacrifice is so very different from Blood Atonement) is only problematic for the analyst that has only a self-taught insight.
> 
> Human Sacrifice is not found anywhere in written history as a ritualist practice of the Jewish People.   I was just reading in the (so-called) "Watcher Files that they said:  "The knowledge of Jewish ritual murder is thousands of years old. It is as old as the Jews themselves. Non-Jews have passed the knowledge of it from generation to generation, and it has been passed down to us thorough writings."
> 
> 
> 
> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...
> What is it you are trying to convey???
> 
> Most Respectfully,
> R
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That Jews murder innocent people because ... Joooooooos.
> 
> And that its okay to lie to present Jews as evil because ... Joooooooos.
> 
> 
> The question that should be asked is what (objectively) is the correct moral and legal response to a protest/riot of many thousands of people at your "border" who:
> 
> 
> reject your right to sovereignty of any kind
> declare the intent to remove your sovereignty
> permit, at the least and incite, at the worst, acts of violence, cross "border"
> threaten escalated action
> hold you responsible for any measures taken
> call on the international community to condemn you for any measures taken
> demonize you for any measures taken
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> *(POINT TO REMEMBER)*
> 
> The first *Hebrew* was (of course) Abraham.  Thus we say, "the God" of Abraham."
> 
> Jacob, at least a grandson down the chain of descendants, was the first *Israelite*.
> 
> Between 850 and 750 BC, one son of Jacob, from Judah, coined the phrase "*Jew" *or *"Jewish*."  This was a result of the elimination and destruction of all the other tribal leaders of descendants of Abraham.
> 
> In order to tie a Ritualistic Practice of Self-Sacrifice (not atonement) by Jews →  one would have to find something newer than the time of Jacob's son _(having an origin within the last 3000 years)_; going no further back that the House of Judah _(one of three remaining tribes out of the twelve)_.  The House of Israel, not existing today, having been decimated about two-and-a-half centuries ago.
> 
> 
> View attachment 186328​
> *(COMMENT)*
> 
> You would be hard-pressed to find the ritualist killing of the innocent in Mosaic Law (Law of Moses).  AND surely nothing ongoing in the Middle East by the Israelis has anything to do with "Ritualistic Sacrifice and Murder) as promoted by religious law.  The is is a peace of propaganda to demonize the Jewish State of Israel and the attempt to discredit Israeli right to sovereignty and territorial integrity.
> 
> I am of the opinion that Arab Palestinians are making an all-out-effort to slander the Establishment of the Jewish State with such ridiculous ideas.  This is not so dissimilar to the "baby Killing" labels used on is during the Vietnam War.
> 
> Most Respectfully,
> R
Click to expand...


----------



## Linkiloo

A Chri


cnelsen said:


> Weatherman2020 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> cnelsen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ILOVEISRAEL said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Penelope said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Weatherman2020 said:
> 
> 
> 
> No mystery why the world focuses on that tiny strip of sand.
> Gods chosen people live there.
> 
> I've been in the West Bank, you?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> When are Christians going to get over worshipping Jews, they do not think much of Christians.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The Jew Hater speaks again. There have been plenty of threads about Christian Anti Semitism going on for over 2000 years and she ignores them all
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Let's see....Jews murdered the first Christian, and it's Christians with the history of hatred?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Please.  Jesus was not murdered, so either learn or shut-up.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Right. Murdered isn't quite the word. Jesus was lynched.
Click to expand...

A Christian and you don't know that he was crucified and not lynched?  With a best friend who is a Palestinian


----------



## Linkiloo

Some Chr


cnelsen said:


> Weatherman2020 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> cnelsen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> cnelsen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> 
> Please explain the barbarism of Judaism.
> It is virtually impossible in Jewish law to find someone guilty of a capital crime.
> I understand you do not know the complexities of Jewish law and arriving at a guilty verdict.
> In the meantime, the RCC was using the Roman Empire to murder at will.
> So much for Catholicism being the religion of love.
> 
> 
> 
> I would be happy to engage you in debate over whether the sacrifice of an innocent played a role in the development of Judaic law, but you are not an honest debater. You don't have the strength of character to grant a debate opponent a point earned, as I've learned.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Which innocent?
> I have no clue as to who you are referring.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> We could start with the appalling story of Abraham willing to sacrifice his son to please "god".
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Obviously a poser troll.
> 
> You atheist freak haters are hilarious.
> 
> View attachment 185943
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I believe in God. I just don't believe in magic books.
Click to expand...

Some Christian you are. Do you make it up as you go along?


----------



## Linkiloo

Shusha said:


> cnelsen said:
> 
> 
> 
> ... I long ago learned few Jews have the strength of character to concede a point ....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, and I know too many Christians who drop a cherry-picked verse, declare victory and vanish.
Click to expand...

He isn't Christian. He thinks Jesus was lynched and he believes in God but not in "books". Sound like a Christian to you?


----------



## cnelsen

Linkiloo said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> cnelsen said:
> 
> 
> 
> ... I long ago learned few Jews have the strength of character to concede a point ....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, and I know too many Christians who drop a cherry-picked verse, declare victory and vanish.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> He isn't Christian. He thinks Jesus was lynched and he believes in God but not in "books". Sound like a Christian to you?
Click to expand...




Linkiloo said:


> A Chri
> 
> 
> cnelsen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Weatherman2020 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> cnelsen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ILOVEISRAEL said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Penelope said:
> 
> 
> 
> When are Christians going to get over worshipping Jews, they do not think much of Christians.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Jew Hater speaks again. There have been plenty of threads about Christian Anti Semitism going on for over 2000 years and she ignores them all
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Let's see....Jews murdered the first Christian, and it's Christians with the history of hatred?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Please.  Jesus was not murdered, so either learn or shut-up.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Right. Murdered isn't quite the word. Jesus was lynched.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> A Christian and you don't know that he was crucified and not lynched?  With a best friend who is a Palestinian
Click to expand...

Crucified is how Jews did their lynchings back then. Or stoning. 

And what is it with the Jewish aversion to accuracy? I never said my "best friend" was Palestinian.


----------



## cnelsen

Linkiloo said:


> Some Christian you are. Do you make it up as you go along?


Great argument, Shlomo.


----------



## cnelsen

Linkiloo said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> cnelsen said:
> 
> 
> 
> ... I long ago learned few Jews have the strength of character to concede a point ....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, and I know too many Christians who drop a cherry-picked verse, declare victory and vanish.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> He isn't Christian. He thinks Jesus was lynched and he believes in God but not in "books". Sound like a Christian to you?
Click to expand...

Look at it this way: Christianity was a modernization of Judaism. It absorbed the far superior and more advanced Greek thought and produced a religious revolution. A few nasty left-overs from Judaism survived, for example, the barbaric anti-religious sacrificial interpretation of Christ's life and teachings, but for the most part, Christian teaching, particularly that of St Paul, is more Greek than Hebrew.

My Christianity is to primitive Christianity as primitive Christianity is to even more primitive Judaism.  See?


----------



## Indeependent

cnelsen said:


> Linkiloo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> cnelsen said:
> 
> 
> 
> ... I long ago learned few Jews have the strength of character to concede a point ....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, and I know too many Christians who drop a cherry-picked verse, declare victory and vanish.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> He isn't Christian. He thinks Jesus was lynched and he believes in God but not in "books". Sound like a Christian to you?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Linkiloo said:
> 
> 
> 
> A Chri
> 
> 
> cnelsen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Weatherman2020 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> cnelsen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ILOVEISRAEL said:
> 
> 
> 
> The Jew Hater speaks again. There have been plenty of threads about Christian Anti Semitism going on for over 2000 years and she ignores them all
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Let's see....Jews murdered the first Christian, and it's Christians with the history of hatred?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Please.  Jesus was not murdered, so either learn or shut-up.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Right. Murdered isn't quite the word. Jesus was lynched.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> A Christian and you don't know that he was crucified and not lynched?  With a best friend who is a Palestinian
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Crucified is how Jews did their lynchings back then. Or stoning.
> 
> And what is it with the Jewish aversion to accuracy? I never said my "best friend" was Palestinian.
Click to expand...

What is it with Christians quoting verses out of context?


----------



## Indeependent

cnelsen said:


> Linkiloo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> cnelsen said:
> 
> 
> 
> ... I long ago learned few Jews have the strength of character to concede a point ....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, and I know too many Christians who drop a cherry-picked verse, declare victory and vanish.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> He isn't Christian. He thinks Jesus was lynched and he believes in God but not in "books". Sound like a Christian to you?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Look at it this way: Christianity was a modernization of Judaism. It absorbed the far superior and more advanced Greek thought and produced a religious revolution. A few nasty left-overs from Judaism survived, for example, the barbaric anti-religious sacrificial interpretation of Christ's life and teachings, but for the most part, Christian teaching, particularly that of St Paul, is more Greek than Hebrew.
> 
> My Christianity is to primitive Christianity as primitive Christianity is to even more primitive Judaism.  See?
Click to expand...

The Greeks?
They’re gone.
The Jews?
We’re still here and pissing you off.


----------



## Penelope

Indeependent said:


> cnelsen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Linkiloo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> cnelsen said:
> 
> 
> 
> ... I long ago learned few Jews have the strength of character to concede a point ....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, and I know too many Christians who drop a cherry-picked verse, declare victory and vanish.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> He isn't Christian. He thinks Jesus was lynched and he believes in God but not in "books". Sound like a Christian to you?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Look at it this way: Christianity was a modernization of Judaism. It absorbed the far superior and more advanced Greek thought and produced a religious revolution. A few nasty left-overs from Judaism survived, for example, the barbaric anti-religious sacrificial interpretation of Christ's life and teachings, but for the most part, Christian teaching, particularly that of St Paul, is more Greek than Hebrew.
> 
> My Christianity is to primitive Christianity as primitive Christianity is to even more primitive Judaism.  See?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The Greeks?
> They’re gone.
> The Jews?
> We’re still here and pissing you off.
Click to expand...


Greece is still here and so is their writings, and Christianity is closer to Greco-Roman than Judaism.  Paul wrote his first books to Greece due to the Maccabean Revolt to deter the gentiles from becoming Jews.  The maj of OT save the Torah from Ezra on is wrote in Greek and Aramaic.


----------



## Indeependent

Penelope said:


> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> cnelsen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Linkiloo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> cnelsen said:
> 
> 
> 
> ... I long ago learned few Jews have the strength of character to concede a point ....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, and I know too many Christians who drop a cherry-picked verse, declare victory and vanish.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> He isn't Christian. He thinks Jesus was lynched and he believes in God but not in "books". Sound like a Christian to you?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Look at it this way: Christianity was a modernization of Judaism. It absorbed the far superior and more advanced Greek thought and produced a religious revolution. A few nasty left-overs from Judaism survived, for example, the barbaric anti-religious sacrificial interpretation of Christ's life and teachings, but for the most part, Christian teaching, particularly that of St Paul, is more Greek than Hebrew.
> 
> My Christianity is to primitive Christianity as primitive Christianity is to even more primitive Judaism.  See?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The Greeks?
> They’re gone.
> The Jews?
> We’re still here and pissing you off.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Greece is still here and so is their writings, and Christianity is closer to Greco-Roman than Judaism.  Paul wrote his first books to Greece due to the Maccabean Revolt to deter the gentiles from becoming Jews.  The maj of OT save the Torah from Ezra on is wrote in Greek and Aramaic.
Click to expand...

The Greeks are still here.
I guess Samuel Clemens is an idiot.
Perhaps you’re the idiot.


----------



## Indeependent

Penelope said:


> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> cnelsen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Linkiloo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> cnelsen said:
> 
> 
> 
> ... I long ago learned few Jews have the strength of character to concede a point ....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, and I know too many Christians who drop a cherry-picked verse, declare victory and vanish.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> He isn't Christian. He thinks Jesus was lynched and he believes in God but not in "books". Sound like a Christian to you?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Look at it this way: Christianity was a modernization of Judaism. It absorbed the far superior and more advanced Greek thought and produced a religious revolution. A few nasty left-overs from Judaism survived, for example, the barbaric anti-religious sacrificial interpretation of Christ's life and teachings, but for the most part, Christian teaching, particularly that of St Paul, is more Greek than Hebrew.
> 
> My Christianity is to primitive Christianity as primitive Christianity is to even more primitive Judaism.  See?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The Greeks?
> They’re gone.
> The Jews?
> We’re still here and pissing you off.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Greece is still here and so is their writings, and Christianity is closer to Greco-Roman than Judaism.  Paul wrote his first books to Greece due to the Maccabean Revolt to deter the gentiles from becoming Jews.  The maj of OT save the Torah from Ezra on is wrote in Greek and Aramaic.
Click to expand...

The OT?
What’s that?
The N’viem are in Greek and Aramaic?
Are you trying to prove you’re an idiot?
The K’suvim are in Greek and Aramaic?
Wash, rinse, repeat question.


----------



## Penelope

Indeependent said:


> Penelope said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> cnelsen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Linkiloo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, and I know too many Christians who drop a cherry-picked verse, declare victory and vanish.
> 
> 
> 
> He isn't Christian. He thinks Jesus was lynched and he believes in God but not in "books". Sound like a Christian to you?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Look at it this way: Christianity was a modernization of Judaism. It absorbed the far superior and more advanced Greek thought and produced a religious revolution. A few nasty left-overs from Judaism survived, for example, the barbaric anti-religious sacrificial interpretation of Christ's life and teachings, but for the most part, Christian teaching, particularly that of St Paul, is more Greek than Hebrew.
> 
> My Christianity is to primitive Christianity as primitive Christianity is to even more primitive Judaism.  See?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The Greeks?
> They’re gone.
> The Jews?
> We’re still here and pissing you off.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Greece is still here and so is their writings, and Christianity is closer to Greco-Roman than Judaism.  Paul wrote his first books to Greece due to the Maccabean Revolt to deter the gentiles from becoming Jews.  The maj of OT save the Torah from Ezra on is wrote in Greek and Aramaic.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The OT?
> What’s that?
> The N’viem are in Greek and Aramaic?
> Are you trying to prove you’re an idiot?
> The K’suvim are in Greek and Aramaic?
> Wash, rinse, repeat question.
Click to expand...


Yep most of the writings since Ezra. Septuagint - Wikipedia

Most Hebrews didn't even read  Hebrew in the first century. Aramaic was the normal language. 

Back to Israel killing the Palestinians.


----------



## Indeependent

Penelope said:


> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Penelope said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> cnelsen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Linkiloo said:
> 
> 
> 
> He isn't Christian. He thinks Jesus was lynched and he believes in God but not in "books". Sound like a Christian to you?
> 
> 
> 
> Look at it this way: Christianity was a modernization of Judaism. It absorbed the far superior and more advanced Greek thought and produced a religious revolution. A few nasty left-overs from Judaism survived, for example, the barbaric anti-religious sacrificial interpretation of Christ's life and teachings, but for the most part, Christian teaching, particularly that of St Paul, is more Greek than Hebrew.
> 
> My Christianity is to primitive Christianity as primitive Christianity is to even more primitive Judaism.  See?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The Greeks?
> They’re gone.
> The Jews?
> We’re still here and pissing you off.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Greece is still here and so is their writings, and Christianity is closer to Greco-Roman than Judaism.  Paul wrote his first books to Greece due to the Maccabean Revolt to deter the gentiles from becoming Jews.  The maj of OT save the Torah from Ezra on is wrote in Greek and Aramaic.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The OT?
> What’s that?
> The N’viem are in Greek and Aramaic?
> Are you trying to prove you’re an idiot?
> The K’suvim are in Greek and Aramaic?
> Wash, rinse, repeat question.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yep most of the writings since Ezra.
Click to expand...

You’re an idiot.
A verse here and there in Aramaic.
WTF are you babbling about?


----------



## Penelope

Indeependent said:


> Penelope said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Penelope said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> cnelsen said:
> 
> 
> 
> Look at it this way: Christianity was a modernization of Judaism. It absorbed the far superior and more advanced Greek thought and produced a religious revolution. A few nasty left-overs from Judaism survived, for example, the barbaric anti-religious sacrificial interpretation of Christ's life and teachings, but for the most part, Christian teaching, particularly that of St Paul, is more Greek than Hebrew.
> 
> My Christianity is to primitive Christianity as primitive Christianity is to even more primitive Judaism.  See?
> 
> 
> 
> The Greeks?
> They’re gone.
> The Jews?
> We’re still here and pissing you off.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Greece is still here and so is their writings, and Christianity is closer to Greco-Roman than Judaism.  Paul wrote his first books to Greece due to the Maccabean Revolt to deter the gentiles from becoming Jews.  The maj of OT save the Torah from Ezra on is wrote in Greek and Aramaic.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The OT?
> What’s that?
> The N’viem are in Greek and Aramaic?
> Are you trying to prove you’re an idiot?
> The K’suvim are in Greek and Aramaic?
> Wash, rinse, repeat question.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yep most of the writings since Ezra.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You’re an idiot.
> A verse here and there in Aramaic.
> WTF are you babbling about?
Click to expand...

scripture  Esther


----------



## cnelsen

Indeependent said:


> cnelsen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Linkiloo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> cnelsen said:
> 
> 
> 
> ... I long ago learned few Jews have the strength of character to concede a point ....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, and I know too many Christians who drop a cherry-picked verse, declare victory and vanish.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> He isn't Christian. He thinks Jesus was lynched and he believes in God but not in "books". Sound like a Christian to you?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Linkiloo said:
> 
> 
> 
> A Chri
> 
> 
> cnelsen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Weatherman2020 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> cnelsen said:
> 
> 
> 
> Let's see....Jews murdered the first Christian, and it's Christians with the history of hatred?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Please.  Jesus was not murdered, so either learn or shut-up.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Right. Murdered isn't quite the word. Jesus was lynched.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> A Christian and you don't know that he was crucified and not lynched?  With a best friend who is a Palestinian
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Crucified is how Jews did their lynchings back then. Or stoning.
> 
> And what is it with the Jewish aversion to accuracy? I never said my "best friend" was Palestinian.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> What is it with Christians quoting verses out of context?
Click to expand...

Lord. Don't you have a job?


----------



## cnelsen

Indeependent said:


> cnelsen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Linkiloo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> cnelsen said:
> 
> 
> 
> ... I long ago learned few Jews have the strength of character to concede a point ....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, and I know too many Christians who drop a cherry-picked verse, declare victory and vanish.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> He isn't Christian. He thinks Jesus was lynched and he believes in God but not in "books". Sound like a Christian to you?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Look at it this way: Christianity was a modernization of Judaism. It absorbed the far superior and more advanced Greek thought and produced a religious revolution. A few nasty left-overs from Judaism survived, for example, the barbaric anti-religious sacrificial interpretation of Christ's life and teachings, but for the most part, Christian teaching, particularly that of St Paul, is more Greek than Hebrew.
> 
> My Christianity is to primitive Christianity as primitive Christianity is to even more primitive Judaism.  See?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The Greeks?
> They’re gone.
> The Jews?
> We’re still here and pissing you off.
Click to expand...

_The Greeks?
They’re gone.
The Jews?
We’re still here and pissing you off.
_​You have that in common with cockroaches.


----------



## Indeependent

Penelope said:


> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Penelope said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Penelope said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> 
> The Greeks?
> They’re gone.
> The Jews?
> We’re still here and pissing you off.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Greece is still here and so is their writings, and Christianity is closer to Greco-Roman than Judaism.  Paul wrote his first books to Greece due to the Maccabean Revolt to deter the gentiles from becoming Jews.  The maj of OT save the Torah from Ezra on is wrote in Greek and Aramaic.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The OT?
> What’s that?
> The N’viem are in Greek and Aramaic?
> Are you trying to prove you’re an idiot?
> The K’suvim are in Greek and Aramaic?
> Wash, rinse, repeat question.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yep most of the writings since Ezra.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You’re an idiot.
> A verse here and there in Aramaic.
> WTF are you babbling about?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> scripture  Esther
Click to expand...

Lying, Jew hating Catholic fuckers...The M'gillah was written in Hebrew.
Jews also have no use for the bullshit Christian version of Hymns where the first verse is ommitted and Jesus is added as a last verse.
God damned mother fuckers pervert God's word every which way they can.


----------



## Indeependent

cnelsen said:


> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> cnelsen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Linkiloo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> cnelsen said:
> 
> 
> 
> ... I long ago learned few Jews have the strength of character to concede a point ....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, and I know too many Christians who drop a cherry-picked verse, declare victory and vanish.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> He isn't Christian. He thinks Jesus was lynched and he believes in God but not in "books". Sound like a Christian to you?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Linkiloo said:
> 
> 
> 
> A Chri
> 
> 
> cnelsen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Weatherman2020 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Please.  Jesus was not murdered, so either learn or shut-up.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Right. Murdered isn't quite the word. Jesus was lynched.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> A Christian and you don't know that he was crucified and not lynched?  With a best friend who is a Palestinian
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Crucified is how Jews did their lynchings back then. Or stoning.
> 
> And what is it with the Jewish aversion to accuracy? I never said my "best friend" was Palestinian.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> What is it with Christians quoting verses out of context?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Lord. Don't you have a job?
Click to expand...

Yep; and I'm damned good at it.
You, on the other hand, are a well trained, quoter of verses out of context, Christian monkey.


----------



## Indeependent

cnelsen said:


> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> cnelsen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Linkiloo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> cnelsen said:
> 
> 
> 
> ... I long ago learned few Jews have the strength of character to concede a point ....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, and I know too many Christians who drop a cherry-picked verse, declare victory and vanish.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> He isn't Christian. He thinks Jesus was lynched and he believes in God but not in "books". Sound like a Christian to you?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Look at it this way: Christianity was a modernization of Judaism. It absorbed the far superior and more advanced Greek thought and produced a religious revolution. A few nasty left-overs from Judaism survived, for example, the barbaric anti-religious sacrificial interpretation of Christ's life and teachings, but for the most part, Christian teaching, particularly that of St Paul, is more Greek than Hebrew.
> 
> My Christianity is to primitive Christianity as primitive Christianity is to even more primitive Judaism.  See?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The Greeks?
> They’re gone.
> The Jews?
> We’re still here and pissing you off.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> _The Greeks?
> They’re gone.
> The Jews?
> We’re still here and pissing you off.
> _​You have that in common with cockroaches.
Click to expand...

And you have everything in common with ad hominems...useless.


----------



## ILOVEISRAEL

Penelope said:


> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Penelope said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Penelope said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> 
> The Greeks?
> They’re gone.
> The Jews?
> We’re still here and pissing you off.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Greece is still here and so is their writings, and Christianity is closer to Greco-Roman than Judaism.  Paul wrote his first books to Greece due to the Maccabean Revolt to deter the gentiles from becoming Jews.  The maj of OT save the Torah from Ezra on is wrote in Greek and Aramaic.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The OT?
> What’s that?
> The N’viem are in Greek and Aramaic?
> Are you trying to prove you’re an idiot?
> The K’suvim are in Greek and Aramaic?
> Wash, rinse, repeat question.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yep most of the writings since Ezra.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You’re an idiot.
> A verse here and there in Aramaic.
> WTF are you babbling about?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> scripture  Esther
Click to expand...


I skimmed through this link: what was her point? That two Jewish women saved others from death and persecution? DAMN ....  No wonder why she is upset.


----------



## Indeependent

ILOVEISRAEL said:


> Penelope said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Penelope said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Penelope said:
> 
> 
> 
> Greece is still here and so is their writings, and Christianity is closer to Greco-Roman than Judaism.  Paul wrote his first books to Greece due to the Maccabean Revolt to deter the gentiles from becoming Jews.  The maj of OT save the Torah from Ezra on is wrote in Greek and Aramaic.
> 
> 
> 
> The OT?
> What’s that?
> The N’viem are in Greek and Aramaic?
> Are you trying to prove you’re an idiot?
> The K’suvim are in Greek and Aramaic?
> Wash, rinse, repeat question.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yep most of the writings since Ezra.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You’re an idiot.
> A verse here and there in Aramaic.
> WTF are you babbling about?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> scripture  Esther
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I skimmed through this link: what was her point? That two Jewish women saved others from death and persecution? DAMN ....  No wonder why she is upset.
Click to expand...

When a Jew hating Catholic, who doesn't even believe in the NT has to Link to a Catholic site...
You can't make up this category of stupid.


----------



## Penelope

Indeependent said:


> ILOVEISRAEL said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Penelope said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Penelope said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> 
> The OT?
> What’s that?
> The N’viem are in Greek and Aramaic?
> Are you trying to prove you’re an idiot?
> The K’suvim are in Greek and Aramaic?
> Wash, rinse, repeat question.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yep most of the writings since Ezra.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You’re an idiot.
> A verse here and there in Aramaic.
> WTF are you babbling about?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> scripture  Esther
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I skimmed through this link: what was her point? That two Jewish women saved others from death and persecution? DAMN ....  No wonder why she is upset.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> When a Jew hating Catholic, who doesn't even believe in the NT has to Link to a Catholic site...
> You can't make up this category of stupid.
Click to expand...


Oh just can't stand that a non jew is right.


----------



## Penelope

Indeependent said:


> Penelope said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Penelope said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Penelope said:
> 
> 
> 
> Greece is still here and so is their writings, and Christianity is closer to Greco-Roman than Judaism.  Paul wrote his first books to Greece due to the Maccabean Revolt to deter the gentiles from becoming Jews.  The maj of OT save the Torah from Ezra on is wrote in Greek and Aramaic.
> 
> 
> 
> The OT?
> What’s that?
> The N’viem are in Greek and Aramaic?
> Are you trying to prove you’re an idiot?
> The K’suvim are in Greek and Aramaic?
> Wash, rinse, repeat question.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yep most of the writings since Ezra.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You’re an idiot.
> A verse here and there in Aramaic.
> WTF are you babbling about?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> scripture  Esther
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Lying, Jew hating Catholic fuckers...The M'gillah was written in Hebrew.
> Jews also have no use for the bullshit Christian version of Hymns where the first verse is ommitted and Jesus is added as a last verse.
> God damned mother fuckers pervert God's word every which way they can.
Click to expand...


Might as well let it out, some jews hates Christians as well as Palestinians.


----------



## Roudy

montelatici said:


> Nice people those Israeli Jews.
> 
> Israeli forces shoot unarmed protesters from across Gaza security fence, killing at least 15


"protestors"  Ha ha ha.  Bunch of fucking terrorist savages is what they are.


----------



## ILOVEISRAEL

Penelope said:


> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Penelope said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Penelope said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> 
> The OT?
> What’s that?
> The N’viem are in Greek and Aramaic?
> Are you trying to prove you’re an idiot?
> The K’suvim are in Greek and Aramaic?
> Wash, rinse, repeat question.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yep most of the writings since Ezra.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You’re an idiot.
> A verse here and there in Aramaic.
> WTF are you babbling about?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> scripture  Esther
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Lying, Jew hating Catholic fuckers...The M'gillah was written in Hebrew.
> Jews also have no use for the bullshit Christian version of Hymns where the first verse is ommitted and Jesus is added as a last verse.
> God damned mother fuckers pervert God's word every which way they can.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Might as well let it out, some jews hates Christians as well as Palestinians.
Click to expand...


Might as well let it out: Most Christians hate Jews. Several links have been posted this topic but of course as a “ Christian” Jew Hater you ignore it.


----------



## RetiredGySgt

Penelope said:


> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ILOVEISRAEL said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Penelope said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Penelope said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yep most of the writings since Ezra.
> 
> 
> 
> You’re an idiot.
> A verse here and there in Aramaic.
> WTF are you babbling about?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> scripture  Esther
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I skimmed through this link: what was her point? That two Jewish women saved others from death and persecution? DAMN ....  No wonder why she is upset.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> When a Jew hating Catholic, who doesn't even believe in the NT has to Link to a Catholic site...
> You can't make up this category of stupid.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Oh just can't stand that a non jew is right.
Click to expand...

The thread is a fail as the dead Pals were all military age men using slingshots and throwing gasoline filled bombs at the Israelis. No Innocents were killed at all.


----------



## ILOVEISRAEL

Penelope said:


> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ILOVEISRAEL said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Penelope said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Penelope said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yep most of the writings since Ezra.
> 
> 
> 
> You’re an idiot.
> A verse here and there in Aramaic.
> WTF are you babbling about?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> scripture  Esther
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I skimmed through this link: what was her point? That two Jewish women saved others from death and persecution? DAMN ....  No wonder why she is upset.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> When a Jew hating Catholic, who doesn't even believe in the NT has to Link to a Catholic site...
> You can't make up this category of stupid.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Oh just can't stand that a non jew is right.
Click to expand...

 
Exactly what are you “ Right” about? You can’t stand the fact A Non Christian is right when they talk about “ Christian” Hate


----------



## Billo_Really

If I was President, I would...

stop protecting Israel by our veto in the UNSC
stop all weapons shipments to Israel
freeze all Israeli assets in US banks
outlaw AIPAC by putting them on the terrorist watch list
submit a resolution to the UNSC telling Israel they got 90 days to get out of the OPT, or that decision will no longer be their's to make
Then a month before the 90 days runs out, I'd park the USS Ronald Reagan just off the shores of Gaza.


----------



## ILOVEISRAEL

Billo_Really said:


> If I was President, I would...
> 
> stop protecting Israel by our veto in the UNSC
> stop all weapons shipments to Israel
> freeze all Israeli assets in US banks
> outlaw AIPAC by putting them on the terrorist watch list
> submit a resolution to the UNSC telling Israel they got 90 days to get out of the OPT, or that decision will no longer be their's to make
> Then a month before the 90 days runs out, I'd park the USS Ronald Reagan just off the shores of Gaza.



YAWN..... Your “ opinion” is irrelevant ( like you)


----------



## Roudy

Billo_Really said:


> If I was President, I would...
> 
> stop protecting Israel by our veto in the UNSC
> stop all weapons shipments to Israel
> freeze all Israeli assets in US banks
> outlaw AIPAC by putting them on the terrorist watch list
> submit a resolution to the UNSC telling Israel they got 90 days to get out of the OPT, or that decision will no longer be their's to make
> Then a month before the 90 days runs out, I'd park the USS Ronald Reagan just off the shores of Gaza.


----------



## Shusha

Billo_Really said:


> If I was President, I would...
> 
> stop protecting Israel by our veto in the UNSC
> stop all weapons shipments to Israel
> freeze all Israeli assets in US banks
> outlaw AIPAC by putting them on the terrorist watch list
> submit a resolution to the UNSC telling Israel they got 90 days to get out of the OPT, or that decision will no longer be their's to make
> Then a month before the 90 days runs out, I'd park the USS Ronald Reagan just off the shores of Gaza.




Define:  "get out"

For example, how would Israel "get out" of Gaza?


----------



## Billo_Really

ILOVEISRAEL said:


> YAWN..... Your “ opinion” is irrelevant ( like you)


Fuck Israel!  And fuck you to.

What they did was unconscionable.


----------



## Billo_Really

Shusha said:


> Define:  "get out"
> 
> For example, how would Israel "get out" of Gaza?


Get their damn navy out of Gazan territorial waters so they can fish further out without getting shot at and rammed.  

Basically, drive all the Israeli's back past the Green Line.  And kick them out of East Jerusalem and the Golan Heights.


----------



## Linkiloo

Billo_Really said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> Define:  "get out"
> 
> For example, how would Israel "get out" of Gaza?
> 
> 
> 
> Get their damn navy out of Gazan territorial waters so they can fish further out without getting shot at and rammed.
> 
> Basically, drive all the Israeli's back past the Green Line.  And kick them out of East Jerusalem and the Golan Heights.
Click to expand...

Yeah because the Arabs were fine with Israel pre 1967.


----------



## Linkiloo

cnelsen said:


> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> cnelsen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Linkiloo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> cnelsen said:
> 
> 
> 
> ... I long ago learned few Jews have the strength of character to concede a point ....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, and I know too many Christians who drop a cherry-picked verse, declare victory and vanish.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> He isn't Christian. He thinks Jesus was lynched and he believes in God but not in "books". Sound like a Christian to you?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Linkiloo said:
> 
> 
> 
> A Chri
> 
> 
> cnelsen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Weatherman2020 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Please.  Jesus was not murdered, so either learn or shut-up.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Right. Murdered isn't quite the word. Jesus was lynched.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> A Christian and you don't know that he was crucified and not lynched?  With a best friend who is a Palestinian
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Crucified is how Jews did their lynchings back then. Or stoning.
> 
> And what is it with the Jewish aversion to accuracy? I never said my "best friend" was Palestinian.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> What is it with Christians quoting verses out of context?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Lord. Don't you have a job?
Click to expand...

One that means taxes are due?


----------



## Linkiloo

Penelope said:


> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Penelope said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Penelope said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> 
> The OT?
> What’s that?
> The N’viem are in Greek and Aramaic?
> Are you trying to prove you’re an idiot?
> The K’suvim are in Greek and Aramaic?
> Wash, rinse, repeat question.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yep most of the writings since Ezra.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You’re an idiot.
> A verse here and there in Aramaic.
> WTF are you babbling about?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> scripture  Esther
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Lying, Jew hating Catholic fuckers...The M'gillah was written in Hebrew.
> Jews also have no use for the bullshit Christian version of Hymns where the first verse is ommitted and Jesus is added as a last verse.
> God damned mother fuckers pervert God's word every which way they can.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Might as well let it out, some jews hates Christians as well as Palestinians.
Click to expand...

And some Christians hate Jews and Palestinians
And some Palestinians hate Christians and Jews

Your point is clear as mud


----------



## Linkiloo

cnelsen said:


> Linkiloo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> cnelsen said:
> 
> 
> 
> ... I long ago learned few Jews have the strength of character to concede a point ....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, and I know too many Christians who drop a cherry-picked verse, declare victory and vanish.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> He isn't Christian. He thinks Jesus was lynched and he believes in God but not in "books". Sound like a Christian to you?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Linkiloo said:
> 
> 
> 
> A Chri
> 
> 
> cnelsen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Weatherman2020 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> cnelsen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ILOVEISRAEL said:
> 
> 
> 
> The Jew Hater speaks again. There have been plenty of threads about Christian Anti Semitism going on for over 2000 years and she ignores them all
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Let's see....Jews murdered the first Christian, and it's Christians with the history of hatred?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Please.  Jesus was not murdered, so either learn or shut-up.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Right. Murdered isn't quite the word. Jesus was lynched.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> A Christian and you don't know that he was crucified and not lynched?  With a best friend who is a Palestinian
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Crucified is how Jews did their lynchings back then. Or stoning.
> 
> And what is it with the Jewish aversion to accuracy? I never said my "best friend" was Palestinian.
Click to expand...

No, lnyching is hanging by a rope. Crucified is nailed to a cross, as was the case with Christ. You used the term lynching in relation to Christ, with is certainly not accurate.
Are you a jew with an aversion to accuracy.


----------



## Linkiloo

cnelsen said:


> Linkiloo said:
> 
> 
> 
> Some Christian you are. Do you make it up as you go along?
> 
> 
> 
> Great argument, Shlomo.
Click to expand...

Yep I am able to read books. You're the first Christian I have ever heard say that he doesn't need books aka the bible. Now you claim to rely on greek interpretation. Guess what? They use the bible too


----------



## RoccoR

RE:  Israeli forces shoot unarmed protesters from across Gaza security fence, killing at least 15
※→  Billo_Really,  et al,

I've found that a vast majority of people that make comments like this have a very poor understanding of the international laws that govern Israel's role in this.

Based on the past criminal behaviors of the Government representing the Gaza Strip [ie the Islamic Resistance Movement (HAMAS)] do not understand what is being done.

There are several reasons that Israel might intercept vessels that they have reasonable grounds to believe are carrying contraband or breaching a blockade, and after prior warning they intentionally and clearly refuse to stop, or intentionally and clearly resist visit, search or capture (_See Section V - Paragraph 67, San Remo Manual on International Law Applicable to Armed Conflicts at Sea, 12 June 1994_).  The two principle reasons are _(but not limited to)_: 

•  The suspect vessel is making an effective contribution to the Arab Palestinians efforts in an armed conflict  between governmental forces of Israel → and → the Hostile Arab Palestinian forces and non-governmental armed groups recognized by the Regional Community.

•  To establish such a blockade as to combat crimes that might be connected with terrorism, including drug trafficking in all its aspects, illicit arms trade, in particular of small arms and light weapons, including man-portable air defence systems , money laundering and smuggling potentially deadly materials.​


Billo_Really said:


> Get their damn navy out of Gazan territorial waters so they can fish further out without getting shot at and rammed.
> 
> Basically, drive all the Israeli's back past the Green Line.  And kick them out of East Jerusalem and the Golan Heights.


*(COMMENT)*

The block was established and is manged IAW Section II of the International Law Applicable to Armed Conflicts at Sea.

Israel, itself, has two reasons for pursuing the blockade:

•  To fully cooperate in the fight against Jihadist, the Fedayeen, Hostile Insurgents, Radicalized Islamic Followers, and Asymmetric fighters, IAW obligations under international law.  

•  To deny safe transport of contraband and prevent the material support that facilitates the preparation or perpetration of hostile acts or provides safe havens.​
IMO ⇒ Territorial Waters is not such a sufficient reason to deny a naval blockade.

Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## Penelope

ILOVEISRAEL said:


> Penelope said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ILOVEISRAEL said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Penelope said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> 
> You’re an idiot.
> A verse here and there in Aramaic.
> WTF are you babbling about?
> 
> 
> 
> scripture  Esther
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I skimmed through this link: what was her point? That two Jewish women saved others from death and persecution? DAMN ....  No wonder why she is upset.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> When a Jew hating Catholic, who doesn't even believe in the NT has to Link to a Catholic site...
> You can't make up this category of stupid.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Oh just can't stand that a non jew is right.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Exactly what are you “ Right” about? You can’t stand the fact A Non Christian is right when they talk about “ Christian” Hate
Click to expand...




now back to the killing of Palestinians.  Its nothing new the Zionist IDF has always used Pals for target practice, they can't even fish without being shot at.


----------



## Penelope

Linkiloo said:


> Penelope said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Penelope said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Penelope said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yep most of the writings since Ezra.
> 
> 
> 
> You’re an idiot.
> A verse here and there in Aramaic.
> WTF are you babbling about?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> scripture  Esther
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Lying, Jew hating Catholic fuckers...The M'gillah was written in Hebrew.
> Jews also have no use for the bullshit Christian version of Hymns where the first verse is ommitted and Jesus is added as a last verse.
> God damned mother fuckers pervert God's word every which way they can.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Might as well let it out, some jews hates Christians as well as Palestinians.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> And some Christians hate Jews and Palestinians
> And some Palestinians hate Christians and Jews
> 
> Your point is clear as mud
Click to expand...


Well the Pals have a good reason.  Now I admire lots of Jews, they are not in Israel and do not back the IDF and the rogue admin.


----------



## cnelsen

RetiredGySgt said:


> Penelope said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ILOVEISRAEL said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Penelope said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> 
> You’re an idiot.
> A verse here and there in Aramaic.
> WTF are you babbling about?
> 
> 
> 
> scripture  Esther
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I skimmed through this link: what was her point? That two Jewish women saved others from death and persecution? DAMN ....  No wonder why she is upset.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> When a Jew hating Catholic, who doesn't even believe in the NT has to Link to a Catholic site...
> You can't make up this category of stupid.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Oh just can't stand that a non jew is right.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The thread is a fail as the dead Pals were all military age men using slingshots and throwing gasoline filled bombs at the Israelis. No Innocents were killed at all.
Click to expand...

Do you even hear yourself? "military age men using slingshots"


----------



## cnelsen

Linkiloo said:


> lnyching is hanging by a rope


not necessarily


----------



## Humanity

Shusha said:


> Humanity said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Humanity said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Humanity said:
> 
> 
> 
> And the Palestinian who was shot BEFORE the march whilst working on his land?
> 
> Ah, the IDF didn't like the way he was digging I guess!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No, the IDF did not like the way he was digging with his accomplice UNDER the fence.
> 
> Tell me, why would a farmer be digging UNDER a fence?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You have evidence of this?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> _The army said that the “two suspects approached the perimeter fence… and engaged in suspicious behavior on the ground alongside it. In response, an IDF unit fired at them with a tank.”  _Source
> 
> Now.  Where is your condemnation of the acts of violence committed by Gaza?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> "Witnesses said he was working his land near the border when the shells hit."
> 
> The army said that the “two suspects approached the perimeter fence… and engaged in suspicious behavior on the ground alongside it. In response, an IDF unit fired at them with a tank.”
> 
> Just two segments from your link...
> 
> Is shelling "*suspects*" with tanks normal behavior for a civilized nation?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Is planting bombs?
> 
> 
> Why won't you condemn Palestinian violence?
Click to expand...


I'm still awaiting a link supporting your claim that indeed he was planting a bomb.

As you well know, I have condemned Palestinian violence in the past.

Why won't you condemn Israeli heavy handedness and murder?

Tell you what, we make a pact... When you start condemning the use of tanks against civilians then I will start condemning Palestinian violence.


----------



## RetiredGySgt

cnelsen said:


> RetiredGySgt said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Penelope said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ILOVEISRAEL said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Penelope said:
> 
> 
> 
> scripture  Esther
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I skimmed through this link: what was her point? That two Jewish women saved others from death and persecution? DAMN ....  No wonder why she is upset.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> When a Jew hating Catholic, who doesn't even believe in the NT has to Link to a Catholic site...
> You can't make up this category of stupid.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Oh just can't stand that a non jew is right.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The thread is a fail as the dead Pals were all military age men using slingshots and throwing gasoline filled bombs at the Israelis. No Innocents were killed at all.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Do you even hear yourself? "military age men using slingshots"
Click to expand...

Military slingshots. Designed to KILL. Or have you forgotten that sling shots were originally weapons of war?


----------



## ILOVEISRAEL

Billo_Really said:


> ILOVEISRAEL said:
> 
> 
> 
> YAWN..... Your “ opinion” is irrelevant ( like you)
> 
> 
> 
> Fuck Israel!  And fuck you to.
> 
> What they did was unconscionable.
Click to expand...

 Fuck YOU ! Israel has the Right to kill ANYBODY who throws Rocks, tried to kill with Military Sling Shots, or other weapons.


----------



## Roudy

Linkiloo said:


> cnelsen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Linkiloo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> cnelsen said:
> 
> 
> 
> ... I long ago learned few Jews have the strength of character to concede a point ....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, and I know too many Christians who drop a cherry-picked verse, declare victory and vanish.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> He isn't Christian. He thinks Jesus was lynched and he believes in God but not in "books". Sound like a Christian to you?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Linkiloo said:
> 
> 
> 
> A Chri
> 
> 
> cnelsen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Weatherman2020 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> cnelsen said:
> 
> 
> 
> Let's see....Jews murdered the first Christian, and it's Christians with the history of hatred?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Please.  Jesus was not murdered, so either learn or shut-up.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Right. Murdered isn't quite the word. Jesus was lynched.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> A Christian and you don't know that he was crucified and not lynched?  With a best friend who is a Palestinian
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Crucified is how Jews did their lynchings back then. Or stoning.
> 
> And what is it with the Jewish aversion to accuracy? I never said my "best friend" was Palestinian.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> No, lnyching is hanging by a rope. Crucified is nailed to a cross, as was the case with Christ. You used the term lynching in relation to Christ, with is certainly not accurate.
> Are you a jew with an aversion to accuracy.
Click to expand...

He isn't a Jew, that's for sure. I don't know where you got that one.


----------



## Roudy

Penelope said:


> Linkiloo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Penelope said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Penelope said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> 
> You’re an idiot.
> A verse here and there in Aramaic.
> WTF are you babbling about?
> 
> 
> 
> scripture  Esther
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Lying, Jew hating Catholic fuckers...The M'gillah was written in Hebrew.
> Jews also have no use for the bullshit Christian version of Hymns where the first verse is ommitted and Jesus is added as a last verse.
> God damned mother fuckers pervert God's word every which way they can.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Might as well let it out, some jews hates Christians as well as Palestinians.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> And some Christians hate Jews and Palestinians
> And some Palestinians hate Christians and Jews
> 
> Your point is clear as mud
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Well the Pals have a good reason.  Now I admire lots of Jews, they are not in Israel and do not back the IDF and the rogue admin.
Click to expand...


Aw boo hoo!  Those poor peaceful Palestinians just minding their own business, all they want is to fish and not kill all the Jews and destroy Israel.  My heart goes out to them!


----------



## Shusha

Billo_Really said:


> Get their damn navy out of Gazan territorial waters so they can fish further out without getting shot at and rammed.



Seriously?  You think fishing is the problem?  You think that if Gazans can just fish a little further out, then they will no longer commit violence against Israel?


----------



## Penelope

Shusha said:


> Billo_Really said:
> 
> 
> 
> Get their damn navy out of Gazan territorial waters so they can fish further out without getting shot at and rammed.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Seriously?  You think fishing is the problem?  You think that if Gazans can just fish a little further out, then they will no longer commit violence against Israel?
Click to expand...


Can't even fish without being shot at.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot

Penelope said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Billo_Really said:
> 
> 
> 
> Get their damn navy out of Gazan territorial waters so they can fish further out without getting shot at and rammed.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Seriously?  You think fishing is the problem?  You think that if Gazans can just fish a little further out, then they will no longer commit violence against Israel?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Can't even fish without being shot at.
Click to expand...


Terrorists have a tough life.........wahh.


----------



## Penelope

Toddsterpatriot said:


> Penelope said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Billo_Really said:
> 
> 
> 
> Get their damn navy out of Gazan territorial waters so they can fish further out without getting shot at and rammed.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Seriously?  You think fishing is the problem?  You think that if Gazans can just fish a little further out, then they will no longer commit violence against Israel?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Can't even fish without being shot at.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Terrorists have a tough life.........wahh.
Click to expand...


In this case its the Zionist who are the terrorists.


----------



## Shusha

Humanity said:


> I'm still awaiting a link supporting your claim that indeed he was planting a bomb.


What was wrong with the one I already posted?



> Why won't you condemn Israeli heavy handedness and murder?
> 
> Tell you what, we make a pact... When you start condemning the use of tanks against civilians then I will start condemning Palestinian violence.



Civilians?  Farmers?  What?!  Do melons grow better when the seeds are planted under barbed wire?  Is THAT why the "farmer" was digging under the fence?  Give me a break.  Someone planting an IED is a combatant -- not a civilian.  And no, I will not be condemning the use of live fire against combatants.  (And reasonable people will not do so either.  But somehow there always seems to be special rules for Israel).

Look, here's what we know:


Hamas has explicitly stated its INTENT to breach the fence and claim the territory under Arab rule
Hamas has spent 15 million dollars on what will amount to nothing more than a publicity stunt (money far better spent elsewhere)
Hamas has threatened harm to anyone (such as bus drivers) who does not facilitate the riots
There are tens of thousands of people -- both civilians and militants -- rioting along a sensitive border with Israel.  the potential for an explosive development is extremely high with potentially a great loss of life
16 of the 19 killed in the first days have been identified as militants belonging to various militant, extremist and terrorist groups (and I certain the other 3 will also be so identified in a few months when the "Israel is killing civilians trope is once again well entrenched in the minds of the useful idiots around the world)
Gazans are bringing guns, grenades, IEDs, firebombs and slings to the "peaceful protest"
Hamas is PAYING people to make attacks on Israel


Israel has permitted the "peaceful protest" (riots) to occur
Israel widely spread information assuring its intent for peace, recommended cautions and instructions to maintain distance from the fence through social media, announcements and flyers dropped on the crowd
Israel is using a variety of crowd dispersal methods including tear gas and water cannons ONLY for those approaching the fence in order to maintain the integrity of the border for the security of Israelis less than a mile from the fence
Israel has used live fire ONLY as a last resort when suspicious activity was apparent and non-lethal methods were ineffective
The dead are overwhelmingly militants (combatants) and not civilians
The dead are overwhelmingly known to have been committing acts of violence at the time of their demise
Only non-lethal force is being used against civilians
There have been two instances where civilians reached the fence.  A seven year old girl -- sent by her parents -- began to climb the fence.  She was not shot.  Instead, an Israeli soldier, at risk of his own life, crossed to the Gaza side of the fence and returned the girl to her parents, unharmed.  A teenager approached the fence and picked up a set of bolt cutters.  He snipped a hole in the fence and stepped through to the other side.  He was not shot.  He paused there a moment and returned to Gaza, unharmed

What this all tells me is that we have, on the one side, militant groups who are using the cover of the "peaceful protest" to send combatants to use lethal force against Israel with the stated intent of tipping the balance of the riot into a breach of the fence to attack Israel's sovereignty and, in all likelihood, harm Israelis.  While on the other side we have a well-disciplined military force facing an extremely volatile situation involving both civilians and militants and responding with appropriate and nuanced force levels based on actions of individuals on a case-by-case basis.

I assure you, should I see Israel acting inappropriately, I will condemn it.  I haven't seen it yet. But I can not possibly imagine Israel handling this extremely difficult security situation any better than they are.  If you have information that I do not, please share. 

And in the meantime, are you going to condemn the violence and the incitement to violence committed against Israel?  I suspect you will not.  I suspect you, like others here, feel that Arabs have the right to "resist" while Jews do not have the right to defend themselves.  I suspect that you hold double standards with respect to use of force -- one set of rules for Israel and one for others.  You are just more careful than others to reveal it.


----------



## Shusha

Penelope said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Billo_Really said:
> 
> 
> 
> Get their damn navy out of Gazan territorial waters so they can fish further out without getting shot at and rammed.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Seriously?  You think fishing is the problem?  You think that if Gazans can just fish a little further out, then they will no longer commit violence against Israel?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Can't even fish without being shot at.
Click to expand...


Gaza has ~4000 fishermen.  Only 70 or so are arrested (let alone shot at) in a given year.  They are neither arrested nor shot at for fishing.  They are arrested when they are importing weapons into Gaza.  Stop importing weapons and fish.  Its not rocket science.


----------



## Billo_Really

Linkiloo said:


> Yeah because the Arabs were fine with Israel pre 1967.


That doesn't give Israel the right to violate international law.


----------



## Billo_Really

RoccoR said:


> RE:  Israeli forces shoot unarmed protesters from across Gaza security fence, killing at least 15
> ※→  Billo_Really,  et al,
> 
> I've found that a vast majority of people that make comments like this have a very poor understanding of the international laws that govern Israel's role in this.
> 
> Based on the past criminal behaviors of the Government representing the Gaza Strip [ie the Islamic Resistance Movement (HAMAS)] do not understand what is being done.
> 
> There are several reasons that Israel might intercept vessels that they have reasonable grounds to believe are carrying contraband or breaching a blockade, and after prior warning they intentionally and clearly refuse to stop, or intentionally and clearly resist visit, search or capture (_See Section V - Paragraph 67, San Remo Manual on International Law Applicable to Armed Conflicts at Sea, 12 June 1994_).  The two principle reasons are _(but not limited to)_:
> 
> •  The suspect vessel is making an effective contribution to the Arab Palestinians efforts in an armed conflict  between governmental forces of Israel → and → the Hostile Arab Palestinian forces and non-governmental armed groups recognized by the Regional Community.
> 
> •  To establish such a blockade as to combat crimes that might be connected with terrorism, including drug trafficking in all its aspects, illicit arms trade, in particular of small arms and light weapons, including man-portable air defence systems , money laundering and smuggling potentially deadly materials.​
> 
> 
> Billo_Really said:
> 
> 
> 
> Get their damn navy out of Gazan territorial waters so they can fish further out without getting shot at and rammed.
> 
> Basically, drive all the Israeli's back past the Green Line.  And kick them out of East Jerusalem and the Golan Heights.
> 
> 
> 
> *(COMMENT)*
> 
> The block was established and is manged IAW Section II of the International Law Applicable to Armed Conflicts at Sea.
> 
> Israel, itself, has two reasons for pursuing the blockade:
> 
> •  To fully cooperate in the fight against Jihadist, the Fedayeen, Hostile Insurgents, Radicalized Islamic Followers, and Asymmetric fighters, IAW obligations under international law.
> 
> •  To deny safe transport of contraband and prevent the material support that facilitates the preparation or perpetration of hostile acts or provides safe havens.​
> IMO ⇒ Territorial Waters is not such a sufficient reason to deny a naval blockade.
> 
> Most Respectfully,
> R
Click to expand...

I have a very good understanding of international law and you are full of shit!  There is no legal justification for Israel to be in Gazan territorial waters.  They are there to make life unbearable for Palestinians.  They shoot at their fishermen, they shoot at their farmers and as we have seen in the videos this past two weeks, they shoot at unarmed protesters.  

My opinion is, anyone even attempting to defend such actions, is not only complicit in a crime, but is a piece of shit human.


----------



## Billo_Really

ILOVEISRAEL said:


> Fuck YOU ! Israel has the Right to kill ANYBODY who throws Rocks, tried to kill with Military Sling Shots, or other weapons.


States don't have rights, people do.

And no, Israel does not have the right to murder innocent Palestinians.

According to your argument, it would be okay to kill David after he faced Goliath, because he threw a rock!


----------



## Billo_Really

Shusha said:


> Seriously?  You think fishing is the problem?  You think that if Gazans can just fish a little further out, then they will no longer commit violence against Israel?


Just take a second to think about this...

_*"Who the hell shoots at people fishing?"

"Who the hell shoots at people farming?"
*_​You've got to be one sick puppy to be doing that.

BTW, the Palestinians have every legal right in the world to attack Israel while this illegal and immoral occupation continues.


----------



## Shusha

Billo_Really said:


> They shoot at their fishermen, they shoot at their farmers and as we have seen in the videos this past two weeks, they shoot at unarmed protesters.
> 
> My opinion is, anyone even attempting to defend such actions, is not only complicit in a crime, but is a piece of shit human.




To be clear -- NO ONE here is arguing that Israel is legally or morally permitted to shoot at unarmed civilians.  NO ONE here is defending such actions.  On the contrary, the argument by both Israel and the pro-Israel side here is that it is legally and morally permissible to use lethal force on combatants attempting to harm Israel's sovereignty or Israel's civilians.


----------



## Shusha

Billo_Really said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> Seriously?  You think fishing is the problem?  You think that if Gazans can just fish a little further out, then they will no longer commit violence against Israel?
> 
> 
> 
> Just take a second to think about this...
> 
> _*"Who the hell shoots at people fishing?"
> 
> "Who the hell shoots at people farming?"
> *_​You've got to be one sick puppy to be doing that.
> 
> BTW, the Palestinians have every legal right in the world to attack Israel while this illegal and immoral occupation continues.
Click to expand...


You've just answered the question.  Its not about fishing.  Its about the "occupation".  Do you seriously think that if Israel just let the fisherman fish a little further out that either you or Hamas would consider the "occupation" over?


----------



## Shusha

Billo_Really said:


> BTW, the Palestinians have every legal right in the world to attack Israel while this illegal and immoral occupation continues.



Does Israel have a legal right to defend themselves from these attacks?  Yes or no?


----------



## Billo_Really

Penelope said:


> Can't even fish without being shot at.


And they won't even let ships carrying humanitarian aid into Gaza.  I think they're sending the wrong kind of ships.  We should put all the supplies on a ship like this and send it to Gaza.


----------



## Billo_Really

Toddsterpatriot said:


> Terrorists have a tough life.........wahh.


Not if you're Israeli terrorists.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot

Billo_Really said:


> Penelope said:
> 
> 
> 
> Can't even fish without being shot at.
> 
> 
> 
> And they won't even let ships carrying humanitarian aid into Gaza.  I think they're sending the wrong kind of ships.  We should put all the supplies on a ship like this and send it to Gaza.
Click to expand...


And they won't even let ships carrying humanitarian aid into Gaza.

It's true, Hamas sucks.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot

Billo_Really said:


> Toddsterpatriot said:
> 
> 
> 
> Terrorists have a tough life.........wahh.
> 
> 
> 
> Not if you're Israeli terrorists.
Click to expand...


We're talking about Arab terrorists in Gaza now, not Arab terrorists in Israel.


----------



## RetiredGySgt

Billo_Really said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> 
> RE:  Israeli forces shoot unarmed protesters from across Gaza security fence, killing at least 15
> ※→  Billo_Really,  et al,
> 
> I've found that a vast majority of people that make comments like this have a very poor understanding of the international laws that govern Israel's role in this.
> 
> Based on the past criminal behaviors of the Government representing the Gaza Strip [ie the Islamic Resistance Movement (HAMAS)] do not understand what is being done.
> 
> There are several reasons that Israel might intercept vessels that they have reasonable grounds to believe are carrying contraband or breaching a blockade, and after prior warning they intentionally and clearly refuse to stop, or intentionally and clearly resist visit, search or capture (_See Section V - Paragraph 67, San Remo Manual on International Law Applicable to Armed Conflicts at Sea, 12 June 1994_).  The two principle reasons are _(but not limited to)_:
> 
> •  The suspect vessel is making an effective contribution to the Arab Palestinians efforts in an armed conflict  between governmental forces of Israel → and → the Hostile Arab Palestinian forces and non-governmental armed groups recognized by the Regional Community.
> 
> •  To establish such a blockade as to combat crimes that might be connected with terrorism, including drug trafficking in all its aspects, illicit arms trade, in particular of small arms and light weapons, including man-portable air defence systems , money laundering and smuggling potentially deadly materials.​
> 
> 
> Billo_Really said:
> 
> 
> 
> Get their damn navy out of Gazan territorial waters so they can fish further out without getting shot at and rammed.
> 
> Basically, drive all the Israeli's back past the Green Line.  And kick them out of East Jerusalem and the Golan Heights.
> 
> 
> 
> *(COMMENT)*
> 
> The block was established and is manged IAW Section II of the International Law Applicable to Armed Conflicts at Sea.
> 
> Israel, itself, has two reasons for pursuing the blockade:
> 
> •  To fully cooperate in the fight against Jihadist, the Fedayeen, Hostile Insurgents, Radicalized Islamic Followers, and Asymmetric fighters, IAW obligations under international law.
> 
> •  To deny safe transport of contraband and prevent the material support that facilitates the preparation or perpetration of hostile acts or provides safe havens.​
> IMO ⇒ Territorial Waters is not such a sufficient reason to deny a naval blockade.
> 
> Most Respectfully,
> R
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I have a very good understanding of international law and you are full of shit!  There is no legal justification for Israel to be in Gazan territorial waters.  They are there to make life unbearable for Palestinians.  They shoot at their fishermen, they shoot at their farmers and as we have seen in the videos this past two weeks, they shoot at unarmed protesters.
> 
> My opinion is, anyone even attempting to defend such actions, is not only complicit in a crime, but is a piece of shit human.
Click to expand...

They did not shoot live ammo at protesters they shot men using weapons of war to attack Israeli soldiers. Rubber bullets were used on the regular protestors as is legal EVERY where to control large crowds.


----------



## TroglocratsRdumb

montelatici said:


> Nice people those Israeli Jews.
> 
> Israeli forces shoot unarmed protesters from across Gaza security fence, killing at least 15



*This is outrageous!!
Why did they only shoot 15?
That is pathetic.
1500 would be a good start.*


----------



## Billo_Really

Shusha said:


> Gaza has ~4000 fishermen.  Only 70 or so are arrested (let alone shot at) in a given year.  They are neither arrested nor shot at for fishing.  They are arrested when they are importing weapons into Gaza.  Stop importing weapons and fish.  Its not rocket science.


Why can't they have weapons?  Are you saying Gazans have no right to defend themselves.  Because you need weapons to do that.

I'll tell you what is really funny though, that is watching all these 2nd amendment fuckers in this country agree with you.  Just try and tell an American he doesn't have a right to have a weapon and see what happens next.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot

Billo_Really said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> Gaza has ~4000 fishermen.  Only 70 or so are arrested (let alone shot at) in a given year.  They are neither arrested nor shot at for fishing.  They are arrested when they are importing weapons into Gaza.  Stop importing weapons and fish.  Its not rocket science.
> 
> 
> 
> Why can't they have weapons?  Are you saying Gazans have no right to defend themselves.  Because you need weapons to do that.
> 
> I'll tell you what is really funny though, that is watching all these 2nd amendment fuckers in this country agree with you.  Just try and tell an American he doesn't have a right to have a weapon and see what happens next.
Click to expand...

*
Why can't they have weapons?
*
Because they suck.


----------



## Billo_Really

Shusha said:


> To be clear -- NO ONE here is arguing that Israel is legally or morally permitted to shoot at unarmed civilians.  NO ONE here is defending such actions.  On the contrary, the argument by both Israel and the pro-Israel side here is that it is legally and morally permissible to use lethal force on combatants attempting to harm Israel's sovereignty or Israel's civilians.


An occupying force is not sovereign to the territory it occupy's.


----------



## ILOVEISRAEL

TroglocratsRdumb said:


> montelatici said:
> 
> 
> 
> Nice people those Israeli Jews.
> 
> Israeli forces shoot unarmed protesters from across Gaza security fence, killing at least 15
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *This is outrageous!!
> Why did they only shoot 15?
> That is pathetic.
> 1500 would be a good start.*
Click to expand...


Excellent Post ! They initiate Violence and they suffer the consequences


----------



## Billo_Really

Shusha said:


> You've just answered the question.  Its not about fishing.  Its about the "occupation".  Do you seriously think that if Israel just let the fisherman fish a little further out that either you or Hamas would consider the "occupation" over?


It's none of Israel's business where Gazans fish.


----------



## ILOVEISRAEL

Billo_Really said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> To be clear -- NO ONE here is arguing that Israel is legally or morally permitted to shoot at unarmed civilians.  NO ONE here is defending such actions.  On the contrary, the argument by both Israel and the pro-Israel side here is that it is legally and morally permissible to use lethal force on combatants attempting to harm Israel's sovereignty or Israel's civilians.
> 
> 
> 
> An occupying force is not sovereign to the territory it occupy's.
Click to expand...


Somehow if the Arabs won the 67 War they couldn’t give a SHIT about “ occupation” Neither do I


----------



## Billo_Really

Shusha said:


> Does Israel have a legal right to defend themselves from these attacks?  Yes or no?


Everyone has a right to defend themselves, even if they are in places they should not be.

I am completely, 100% against, US troops in Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria and I don't know how many African nations we are in right now, but if one of our soldiers is getting shot at, I expect them to return fire.


----------



## Billo_Really

Toddsterpatriot said:


> We're talking about Arab terrorists in Gaza now, not Arab terrorists in Israel.


Gazans aren't terrorists.


----------



## Billo_Really

RetiredGySgt said:


> They did not shoot live ammo at protesters they shot men using weapons of war to attack Israeli soldiers. Rubber bullets were used on the regular protestors as is legal EVERY where to control large crowds.


It doesn't matter.  You can't shoot at unarmed protesters.

I bet you took the military's side at Kent St?


----------



## Penelope

Shusha said:


> Billo_Really said:
> 
> 
> 
> BTW, the Palestinians have every legal right in the world to attack Israel while this illegal and immoral occupation continues.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Does Israel have a legal right to defend themselves from these attacks?  Yes or no?
Click to expand...


Does the Palestinians have a legal right to defend itself from the IDF attacks? Yes or no?


----------



## Billo_Really

Toddsterpatriot said:


> *Why can't they have weapons?
> *
> Because they suck.


That's probably the best answer I've heard on that question!


----------



## Shusha

Here is an interesting article on use of force requirements (including lethal force) by LEOs for protests in different countries.

Some examples:

_In Italy, police must follow guidelines that allow for the use of weapons only in the line of duty, when it is an "unavoidable necessity to overcome resistance, stop violence, or prevent a [serious] crime," an officer said._

_Afghan police "can use weapons or explosives against a group of people only if it has ... disturbed security by means of arms, and if the use of other means of force ... has proved ineffective," Afghan police officer Zabiullah, 24, said. Police must also issue at least six warnings — three verbal and three warning shots — before they use force._

_In Bosnia, police say they may use force ranging from batons to chemical irritants, water cannons, "binding agents, special firearms and explosive devices." They must issue a warning first, however, and can't use force against the young, old, or disabled (unless they are armed)._

_Malaysia's public order police, the Federal Reserve Unit, are only allowed to use firearms if the protestors are using firearms, too. The FRU was formed 59 years ago and firearms have never been used._

_While Belgian police are allowed to use lethal force in self-defense or to confront armed perpetrators, they are never allowed to use firearms for the purpose of crowd control, according to human rights monitors._


----------



## Shusha

Billo_Really said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> To be clear -- NO ONE here is arguing that Israel is legally or morally permitted to shoot at unarmed civilians.  NO ONE here is defending such actions.  On the contrary, the argument by both Israel and the pro-Israel side here is that it is legally and morally permissible to use lethal force on combatants attempting to harm Israel's sovereignty or Israel's civilians.
> 
> 
> 
> An occupying force is not sovereign to the territory it occupy's.
Click to expand...


Nice dodge.  But I'll bite.  WHERE, exactly, does Israel hold sovereignty, with respect to Gaza?


----------



## Billo_Really

ILOVEISRAEL said:


> Somehow if the Arabs won the 67 War they couldn’t give a SHIT about “ occupation” Neither do I


If they had won, there wouldn't be an occupation.


----------



## Billo_Really

Penelope said:


> Does the Palestinians have a legal right to defend itself from the IDF attacks? Yes or no?


Absolutely!


----------



## Shusha

Billo_Really said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> You've just answered the question.  Its not about fishing.  Its about the "occupation".  Do you seriously think that if Israel just let the fisherman fish a little further out that either you or Hamas would consider the "occupation" over?
> 
> 
> 
> It's none of Israel's business where Gazans fish.
Click to expand...


Again, nice dodge.  Not my question.  My question was specific.  

Do you think that you, or Hamas, would consider the "occupation" over if Israel gave Gaza a few more miles of fishing space?


----------



## Billo_Really

Shusha said:


> Nice dodge.  But I'll bite.  WHERE, exactly, does Israel hold sovereignty, with respect to Gaza?


Can Gazans leave the area?


----------



## Billo_Really

Shusha said:


> Again, nice dodge.  Not my question.  My question was specific.
> 
> Do you think that you, or Hamas, would consider the "occupation" over if Israel gave Gaza a few more miles of fishing space?


The occupation isn't over until Israel withdraws all its troops, all its control and all its psycho insurgent settlers, from the "occupied territories" it took in the '67 war.  Israel controls 80% of what goes in and out of Gaza.  That satisfies the definition of an occupation.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot

Billo_Really said:


> Toddsterpatriot said:
> 
> 
> 
> We're talking about Arab terrorists in Gaza now, not Arab terrorists in Israel.
> 
> 
> 
> Gazans aren't terrorists.
Click to expand...


LOL!


----------



## Shusha

Penelope said:


> Does the Palestinians have a legal right to defend itself from the IDF attacks? Yes or no?



They absolutely do.  I haven't EVER seen an instance of Israel attacking Gaza's sovereignty or civilians since Israel withdrew from the territory except in response to threats against Israel's security.  To be plain:  Israel is not attacking Gaza or Gazans. Your point is moot.  

The existence of Israel is not an attack.  The presence of Jews is not an attack.  The "occupation" is not an attack (its not an occupation and all acts are defensive).  Monitoring smuggling is not an attack.  Checkpoints are not an attack.  Arresting suspects is not an attack.  Prison sentences for crimes is not an attack.

Remember the *cough cough* objective parameters being drawn here by Team Palestine -- if there is no immediate, immanent, obvious threat to life then lethal force can not be used.  That is the requirement demanded of Israel and therefore must be the requirement you uphold for Palestinians.


----------



## Shusha

Billo_Really said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> Nice dodge.  But I'll bite.  WHERE, exactly, does Israel hold sovereignty, with respect to Gaza?
> 
> 
> 
> Can Gazans leave the area?
Click to expand...


Nice dodge.  Not my question.  With respect to Gaza, specifically, where does Israel have sovereignty?  My question, specifically, is whether or not you believe Israel has any sovereign territory.  And with respect to Gaza, where that territory ends.


----------



## Shusha

Billo_Really said:


> The occupation isn't over until Israel withdraws all its troops, all its control and all its psycho insurgent settlers, from the "occupied territories" it took in the '67 war.  Israel controls 80% of what goes in and out of Gaza.  That satisfies the definition of an occupation.



Israel HAS, in point of absolute fact, withdrawn its troops, control and settlers from Gaza.  So clearly that definition is invalid.  You need to re-work it.  

You seem to have an additional requirement having to do with imports/exports.  Define.


----------



## Roudy

Toddsterpatriot said:


> Penelope said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Billo_Really said:
> 
> 
> 
> Get their damn navy out of Gazan territorial waters so they can fish further out without getting shot at and rammed.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Seriously?  You think fishing is the problem?  You think that if Gazans can just fish a little further out, then they will no longer commit violence against Israel?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Can't even fish without being shot at.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Terrorists have a tough life.........wahh.
Click to expand...

I gotta tell ya's, it's hard pretending like your fishing...while you're carrying out a terrorist mission!


----------



## Roudy

Billo_Really said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> Seriously?  You think fishing is the problem?  You think that if Gazans can just fish a little further out, then they will no longer commit violence against Israel?
> 
> 
> 
> Just take a second to think about this...
> 
> _*"Who the hell shoots at people fishing?"
> 
> "Who the hell shoots at people farming?"
> *_​You've got to be one sick puppy to be doing that.
> 
> BTW, the Palestinians have every legal right in the world to attack Israel while this illegal and immoral occupation continues.
Click to expand...

_*Who the hell pretends to be fishing while actually carrying out terrorism?
Who the hell pretends to be farming while actually carrying out terrorism?*_

*Sick, depraved Palestinians, that's who! *


----------



## P F Tinmore

Shusha said:


> Penelope said:
> 
> 
> 
> Does the Palestinians have a legal right to defend itself from the IDF attacks? Yes or no?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> They absolutely do.  I haven't EVER seen an instance of Israel attacking Gaza's sovereignty or civilians since Israel withdrew from the territory except in response to threats against Israel's security.  To be plain:  Israel is not attacking Gaza or Gazans. Your point is moot.
> 
> The existence of Israel is not an attack.  The presence of Jews is not an attack.  The "occupation" is not an attack (its not an occupation and all acts are defensive).  Monitoring smuggling is not an attack.  Checkpoints are not an attack.  Arresting suspects is not an attack.  Prison sentences for crimes is not an attack.
> 
> Remember the *cough cough* objective parameters being drawn here by Team Palestine -- if there is no immediate, immanent, obvious threat to life then lethal force can not be used.  That is the requirement demanded of Israel and therefore must be the requirement you uphold for Palestinians.
Click to expand...

You are full of shit, as usual.

*Eva Bartlett on Gaza in Crisis - An Eyewitness Report*

**


----------



## Shusha

P F Tinmore said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Penelope said:
> 
> 
> 
> Does the Palestinians have a legal right to defend itself from the IDF attacks? Yes or no?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> They absolutely do.  I haven't EVER seen an instance of Israel attacking Gaza's sovereignty or civilians since Israel withdrew from the territory except in response to threats against Israel's security.  To be plain:  Israel is not attacking Gaza or Gazans. Your point is moot.
> 
> The existence of Israel is not an attack.  The presence of Jews is not an attack.  The "occupation" is not an attack (its not an occupation and all acts are defensive).  Monitoring smuggling is not an attack.  Checkpoints are not an attack.  Arresting suspects is not an attack.  Prison sentences for crimes is not an attack.
> 
> Remember the *cough cough* objective parameters being drawn here by Team Palestine -- if there is no immediate, immanent, obvious threat to life then lethal force can not be used.  That is the requirement demanded of Israel and therefore must be the requirement you uphold for Palestinians.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You are full of shit, as usual.
> 
> *Eva Bartlett on Gaza in Crisis - An Eyewitness Report*
> 
> **
Click to expand...



I'm not going to waste my time watching a one hour video from 2007. If you have an example of Israel attacking Gaza absent a response to violence just write a post. Or post a link directly to a story about a specific instance. 

Sheesh.


----------



## ILOVEISRAEL

Billo_Really said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> Again, nice dodge.  Not my question.  My question was specific.
> 
> Do you think that you, or Hamas, would consider the "occupation" over if Israel gave Gaza a few more miles of fishing space?
> 
> 
> 
> The occupation isn't over until Israel withdraws all its troops, all its control and all its psycho insurgent settlers, from the "occupied territories" it took in the '67 war.  Israel controls 80% of what goes in and out of Gaza.  That satisfies the definition of an occupation.
Click to expand...

 
Too bad they didn’t think about “ occupation” when they initiated the 67 War with Nasser bragging to the world he was going to destroy Israel. Go FUCK yourself


----------



## RetiredGySgt

Billo_Really said:


> RetiredGySgt said:
> 
> 
> 
> They did not shoot live ammo at protesters they shot men using weapons of war to attack Israeli soldiers. Rubber bullets were used on the regular protestors as is legal EVERY where to control large crowds.
> 
> 
> 
> It doesn't matter.  You can't shoot at unarmed protesters.
> 
> I bet you took the military's side at Kent St?
Click to expand...

YOU CAN FIRE RUBBER BULLETS at protestors dumb ass. No live ammo was fired at civilians just terrorists who were attacking the Israelis. As proven by who died.


----------



## ILOVEISRAEL

P F Tinmore said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Penelope said:
> 
> 
> 
> Does the Palestinians have a legal right to defend itself from the IDF attacks? Yes or no?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> They absolutely do.  I haven't EVER seen an instance of Israel attacking Gaza's sovereignty or civilians since Israel withdrew from the territory except in response to threats against Israel's security.  To be plain:  Israel is not attacking Gaza or Gazans. Your point is moot.
> 
> The existence of Israel is not an attack.  The presence of Jews is not an attack.  The "occupation" is not an attack (its not an occupation and all acts are defensive).  Monitoring smuggling is not an attack.  Checkpoints are not an attack.  Arresting suspects is not an attack.  Prison sentences for crimes is not an attack.
> 
> Remember the *cough cough* objective parameters being drawn here by Team Palestine -- if there is no immediate, immanent, obvious threat to life then lethal force can not be used.  That is the requirement demanded of Israel and therefore must be the requirement you uphold for Palestinians.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You are full of shit, as usual.
> 
> *Eva Bartlett on Gaza in Crisis - An Eyewitness Report*
> 
> **
Click to expand...

 
Israel just aims their weapons and kills innocent farmers for no reason? What she “ forgot” to mention is that right after Israel withdrew Rockets from Gaza actually increased


----------



## Billo_Really

Shusha said:


> They absolutely do.  I haven't EVER seen an instance of Israel attacking Gaza's sovereignty or civilians since Israel withdrew from the territory except in response to threats against Israel's security.  To be plain:  Israel is not attacking Gaza or Gazans. Your point is moot.


So all these protesters we've seen getting shot these past two weeks is just our imagination?  You're fucking disgusting!



Shusha said:


> The existence of Israel is not an attack.  The presence of Jews is not an attack.  The "occupation" is not an attack (its not an occupation and all acts are defensive).  Monitoring smuggling is not an attack.  Checkpoints are not an attack.  Arresting suspects is not an attack.  Prison sentences for crimes is not an attack.


Checkpoints and arrests in the West Bank and Gazan territorial waters, are attacks.  Administrative detention is not only an attack, but a crime against humanity.



Shusha said:


> Remember the *cough cough* objective parameters being drawn here by Team Palestine -- if there is no immediate, immanent, obvious threat to life then lethal force can not be used.  That is the requirement demanded of Israel and therefore must be the requirement you uphold for Palestinians.


What's lethal about someone fishing?  What's lethal about someone farming?  What's lethal about someone protesting?  And yet, Israel constantly shoots at them.


----------



## P F Tinmore

Shusha said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Penelope said:
> 
> 
> 
> Does the Palestinians have a legal right to defend itself from the IDF attacks? Yes or no?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> They absolutely do.  I haven't EVER seen an instance of Israel attacking Gaza's sovereignty or civilians since Israel withdrew from the territory except in response to threats against Israel's security.  To be plain:  Israel is not attacking Gaza or Gazans. Your point is moot.
> 
> The existence of Israel is not an attack.  The presence of Jews is not an attack.  The "occupation" is not an attack (its not an occupation and all acts are defensive).  Monitoring smuggling is not an attack.  Checkpoints are not an attack.  Arresting suspects is not an attack.  Prison sentences for crimes is not an attack.
> 
> Remember the *cough cough* objective parameters being drawn here by Team Palestine -- if there is no immediate, immanent, obvious threat to life then lethal force can not be used.  That is the requirement demanded of Israel and therefore must be the requirement you uphold for Palestinians.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You are full of shit, as usual.
> 
> *Eva Bartlett on Gaza in Crisis - An Eyewitness Report*
> 
> **
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not going to waste my time watching a one hour video from 2007. If you have an example of Israel attacking Gaza absent a response to violence just write a post. Or post a link directly to a story about a specific instance.
> 
> Sheesh.
Click to expand...

Stay full of shit (Israeli propaganda shit to be exact) see if I care.


----------



## P F Tinmore

ILOVEISRAEL said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Penelope said:
> 
> 
> 
> Does the Palestinians have a legal right to defend itself from the IDF attacks? Yes or no?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> They absolutely do.  I haven't EVER seen an instance of Israel attacking Gaza's sovereignty or civilians since Israel withdrew from the territory except in response to threats against Israel's security.  To be plain:  Israel is not attacking Gaza or Gazans. Your point is moot.
> 
> The existence of Israel is not an attack.  The presence of Jews is not an attack.  The "occupation" is not an attack (its not an occupation and all acts are defensive).  Monitoring smuggling is not an attack.  Checkpoints are not an attack.  Arresting suspects is not an attack.  Prison sentences for crimes is not an attack.
> 
> Remember the *cough cough* objective parameters being drawn here by Team Palestine -- if there is no immediate, immanent, obvious threat to life then lethal force can not be used.  That is the requirement demanded of Israel and therefore must be the requirement you uphold for Palestinians.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You are full of shit, as usual.
> 
> *Eva Bartlett on Gaza in Crisis - An Eyewitness Report*
> 
> **
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Israel just aims their weapons and kills innocent farmers for no reason? What she “ forgot” to mention is that right after Israel withdrew Rockets from Gaza actually increased
Click to expand...

What does that have to do with farmers?


----------



## Billo_Really

RetiredGySgt said:


> YOU CAN FIRE RUBBER BULLETS at protestors dumb ass. No live ammo was fired at civilians just terrorists who were attacking the Israelis. As proven by who died.


Wrong, asshole!  They were peaceful protesters getting shot at by an evil, fascist government.

Hey, let me ask you this, 2nd amendment prick, "Why can't the Palestinian's have weapons?"  C'mon hypocrite, answer that one.


----------



## Billo_Really

Shusha said:


> Nice dodge.  Not my question.  With respect to Gaza, specifically, where does Israel have sovereignty?  My question, specifically, is whether or not you believe Israel has any sovereign territory.  And with respect to Gaza, where that territory ends.


Gaza is a prison.  They cannot leave by boat and they're not allowed to have an airport.  So, that means Israel has sovereignty over Gazan airspace and territorial waters.  Why are you being so obtuse?


----------



## Hollie

Billo_Really said:


> RetiredGySgt said:
> 
> 
> 
> YOU CAN FIRE RUBBER BULLETS at protestors dumb ass. No live ammo was fired at civilians just terrorists who were attacking the Israelis. As proven by who died.
> 
> 
> 
> Wrong, asshole!  They were peaceful protesters getting shot at by an evil, fascist government.
> 
> Hey, let me ask you this, 2nd amendment prick, "Why can't the Palestinian's have weapons?"  C'mon hypocrite, answer that one.
Click to expand...

The Arabs-Moslems masquerading as Pal’Istanians _do_ have weapons.


----------



## Hollie

Billo_Really said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> Nice dodge.  Not my question.  With respect to Gaza, specifically, where does Israel have sovereignty?  My question, specifically, is whether or not you believe Israel has any sovereign territory.  And with respect to Gaza, where that territory ends.
> 
> 
> 
> Gaza is a prison.  They cannot leave by boat and they're not allowed to have an airport.  So, that means Israel has sovereignty over Gazan airspace and territorial waters.  Why are you being so obtuse?
Click to expand...


Let’s agree that you will be among the first to fly “Islamic Terrorist Airways”. Hamas and Islamic gee-had will be responsible for airport security.

Have a nice flight.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot

Billo_Really said:


> RetiredGySgt said:
> 
> 
> 
> YOU CAN FIRE RUBBER BULLETS at protestors dumb ass. No live ammo was fired at civilians just terrorists who were attacking the Israelis. As proven by who died.
> 
> 
> 
> Wrong, asshole!  They were peaceful protesters getting shot at by an evil, fascist government.
> 
> Hey, let me ask you this, 2nd amendment prick, "Why can't the Palestinian's have weapons?"  C'mon hypocrite, answer that one.
Click to expand...


* "Why can't the Palestinian's have weapons?"  
*
Because Palestinians suck


----------



## ILOVEISRAEL

P F Tinmore said:


> ILOVEISRAEL said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Penelope said:
> 
> 
> 
> Does the Palestinians have a legal right to defend itself from the IDF attacks? Yes or no?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> They absolutely do.  I haven't EVER seen an instance of Israel attacking Gaza's sovereignty or civilians since Israel withdrew from the territory except in response to threats against Israel's security.  To be plain:  Israel is not attacking Gaza or Gazans. Your point is moot.
> 
> The existence of Israel is not an attack.  The presence of Jews is not an attack.  The "occupation" is not an attack (its not an occupation and all acts are defensive).  Monitoring smuggling is not an attack.  Checkpoints are not an attack.  Arresting suspects is not an attack.  Prison sentences for crimes is not an attack.
> 
> Remember the *cough cough* objective parameters being drawn here by Team Palestine -- if there is no immediate, immanent, obvious threat to life then lethal force can not be used.  That is the requirement demanded of Israel and therefore must be the requirement you uphold for Palestinians.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You are full of shit, as usual.
> 
> *Eva Bartlett on Gaza in Crisis - An Eyewitness Report*
> 
> **
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Israel just aims their weapons and kills innocent farmers for no reason? What she “ forgot” to mention is that right after Israel withdrew Rockets from Gaza actually increased
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> What does that have to do with farmers?
Click to expand...

 
You claim that Israel just shoots “ innocent” farmers for no reason. I love ❤️ it when we hear that Israel should return to the ( ‘67 Borders) that were never recognized in the first place


----------



## Shusha

P F Tinmore said:


> Stay full of shit (Israeli propaganda shit to be exact) see if I care.



Do you have an instance of Israel attacking Gaza's sovereignty or Gaza's citizens without it being a response to a security need?  My bet is you've got NOTHING.


----------



## Shusha

Billo_Really said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> Nice dodge.  Not my question.  With respect to Gaza, specifically, where does Israel have sovereignty?  My question, specifically, is whether or not you believe Israel has any sovereign territory.  And with respect to Gaza, where that territory ends.
> 
> 
> 
> Gaza is a prison.  They cannot leave by boat and they're not allowed to have an airport.  So, that means Israel has sovereignty over Gazan airspace and territorial waters.  Why are you being so obtuse?
Click to expand...



You keep dodging my original point.  Because you don't want to answer it.  Again -- is there a territory over which Israel has sovereignty.  I'm not asking you about the "occupation" of Gaza.  I'm asking you if Israel has ANY territory over which it is sovereign.  And if so, where is it?


----------



## Shusha

Billo_Really said:


> So all these protesters we've seen getting shot these past two weeks is just our imagination?



Not at all.  Its only your imagination that they are innocent peaceful civilians.  What they are are combatants using lethal violence against the sovereignty of Israel and the security/safety of Israeli citizens.



> Checkpoints and arrests ... Gazan territorial waters, are attacks.


No.  They are not attacks.  They are RESPONSES to violence.  They are security measures.  No violence -- no need for security measures.  Easy peasy.  

You keep wanting to have it both ways.  You keep supporting Gaza's use of weapons and violence and yet reject the idea of Israel protecting its sovereignty and its citizens against this violence.  You can't have it both ways.

EITHER Gazans have a right to use violence against Israel and Israel has a right to respond OR both Gaza and Israel should be held to a standard of no violence.  You can't have it both ways.  You can't support use of violence by Gazans and reject any use of violence by Israel.  It makes no sense.


----------



## P F Tinmore

Shusha said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> Stay full of shit (Israeli propaganda shit to be exact) see if I care.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Do you have an instance of Israel attacking Gaza's sovereignty or Gaza's citizens without it being a response to a security need?  My bet is you've got NOTHING.
Click to expand...

It is always security. Israel needs to protect its settler colonial project.


----------



## ILOVEISRAEL

P F Tinmore said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> Stay full of shit (Israeli propaganda shit to be exact) see if I care.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Do you have an instance of Israel attacking Gaza's sovereignty or Gaza's citizens without it being a response to a security need?  My bet is you've got NOTHING.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> It is always security. Israel needs to protect its settler colonial project.
Click to expand...

 
The Palestinians were throwing rocks, shooting Arrows into the “ 67 Borders” we hear so much about now it’s a “ Settler Colonial Project?”  Just more proof that the “ 67  orders” are a fallacy


----------



## RetiredGySgt

Billo_Really said:


> RetiredGySgt said:
> 
> 
> 
> YOU CAN FIRE RUBBER BULLETS at protestors dumb ass. No live ammo was fired at civilians just terrorists who were attacking the Israelis. As proven by who died.
> 
> 
> 
> Wrong, asshole!  They were peaceful protesters getting shot at by an evil, fascist government.
> 
> Hey, let me ask you this, 2nd amendment prick, "Why can't the Palestinian's have weapons?"  C'mon hypocrite, answer that one.
Click to expand...

They have weapons or haven't you been paying attention? As for why a Country would block weapons shipments to terrorists well that pretty much answers itself. Remind me dumb ass but in the USA do criminals legally own firearms?


----------



## Shusha

P F Tinmore said:


> It is always security. Israel needs to protect ...



Exactly. So we agree. Gaza is not being attacked. Israel is only responding to her security needs.


----------



## P F Tinmore

Hollie said:


> Billo_Really said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> Nice dodge.  Not my question.  With respect to Gaza, specifically, where does Israel have sovereignty?  My question, specifically, is whether or not you believe Israel has any sovereign territory.  And with respect to Gaza, where that territory ends.
> 
> 
> 
> Gaza is a prison.  They cannot leave by boat and they're not allowed to have an airport.  So, that means Israel has sovereignty over Gazan airspace and territorial waters.  Why are you being so obtuse?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Let’s agree that you will be among the first to fly “Islamic Terrorist Airways”. Hamas and Islamic gee-had will be responsible for airport security.
> 
> Have a nice flight.
Click to expand...

Sure, why not?


----------



## P F Tinmore

Shusha said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> It is always security. Israel needs to protect ...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Exactly. So we agree. Gaza is not being attacked. Israel is only responding to her security needs.
Click to expand...

Occupations always have problems with security. It comes with the territory.


----------



## Hollie

P F Tinmore said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Billo_Really said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> Nice dodge.  Not my question.  With respect to Gaza, specifically, where does Israel have sovereignty?  My question, specifically, is whether or not you believe Israel has any sovereign territory.  And with respect to Gaza, where that territory ends.
> 
> 
> 
> Gaza is a prison.  They cannot leave by boat and they're not allowed to have an airport.  So, that means Israel has sovereignty over Gazan airspace and territorial waters.  Why are you being so obtuse?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Let’s agree that you will be among the first to fly “Islamic Terrorist Airways”. Hamas and Islamic gee-had will be responsible for airport security.
> 
> Have a nice flight.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Sure, why not?
Click to expand...


It’s that strange, upside down world you live in. There’s never any ability to offer a meaningful expression beyond your goofy one-liners or silly YouTube video.


----------



## Hollie

P F Tinmore said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> It is always security. Israel needs to protect ...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Exactly. So we agree. Gaza is not being attacked. Israel is only responding to her security needs.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Occupations always have problems with security. It comes with the territory.
Click to expand...


That’s just another of your cut and paste slogans. 

On the other hand, Israel is not having any problem maintaining the security of its borders. That is in spite of the Islamist hordes creating an environmental disaster by burning thousands of car tires for no purpose. 

Once again, it’s the actions of islamic retrogrades who know only destruction, violence and mayhem.


----------



## Hollie

Let’s see, 7 more willing Muhammedans dead at the Hamas pay scale of $3,000 per Muhammedan means a lot of cash coming out of the Islamic terrorist welfare fraud fund, ie. UNRWA welfare fraud.  

Although in the big picture, that sum of money may be nothing more than the cable TV bill for the top tier of Hamas terrorists. 


7 Palestinians killed, 5 seriously wounded in Friday of Tires protest

7 Palestinians killed, 5 seriously wounded in 'Friday of Tires' protest
Despite relatively paltry turnout compared to last Friday's inaugural protest, Palestinian protesters near Gaza border begin burning tires in earnest after conclusion of Friday prayers; 7 Palestinians killed, 5 others seriously wounded in clashes with IDF; army thwarts Palestinian attempts to cross, damage fence and throw Molotov cocktails, explosives under cover of smoKe.


----------



## P F Tinmore

*Israel Massacres Unarmed Gaza Protesters, Shooting 773 with Live Ammunition*

**


----------



## Hollie

P F Tinmore said:


> *Israel Massacres Unarmed Gaza Protesters, Shooting 773 with Live Ammunition*
> 
> **



These silly YouTube videos are a hoot.


----------



## Hollie

Hamas is having a sale on dead Islamics: $3,000 per.

http://www.jewishpress.com/news/eye...-to-pay-gazans-to-get-shot-by-idf/2018/04/05/


----------



## Shusha

P F Tinmore said:


> *Israel Massacres Unarmed Gaza Protesters, Shooting 773 with Live Ammunition*
> 
> **




Seriously?  Five dead is a "massacre"?  Get bent.


----------



## montelatici

5 dead Jews would be a Holocaust for Jews.


----------



## ILOVEISRAEL

P F Tinmore said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> It is always security. Israel needs to protect ...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Exactly. So we agree. Gaza is not being attacked. Israel is only responding to her security needs.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Occupations always have problems with security. It comes with the territory.
Click to expand...


Really? They thought have thought of that before 1967


----------



## ILOVEISRAEL

montelatici said:


> 5 dead Jews would be a Holocaust for Jews.


 
You wish it were six Million . Fuck off


----------



## P F Tinmore

*The march in Gaza | Robert Wright & Yusuf Munayyer [The Wright Show]*

**


----------



## RoccoR

RE:  Israeli forces shoot unarmed protesters from across Gaza security fence, killing at least 15
※→  Billo_Really,  et al,

OK, I have cited just a few specific Laws that are involved.

✪  San Remo Manual on International Law Applicable to Armed Conflicts at Sea, 12 June 1994
•  Section V, Paragraph 67​
✪   International Small Arms Control Standards (ISACS) 05.60:2012(E)V1.0
•  8.6.3  Priority areas  •  As a priority, needs should be identified that would ensure a basic border control capacity, with an initial focus on the development of
a)  human resources in the border control agencies;
b)  capacity to conduct risk assessments;
c)  inter-agency cooperation within the State; and
d)  cross-border cooperation with border agencies in neighbouring States.​✪   The 1997 Terrorist Bombings Convention (EXCERPTS)

Article 2

1. Any person commits an offence within the meaning of this Convention if that person unlawfully and intentionally delivers, places, discharges or detonates an explosive or other lethal device in, into or against a place of public use, a State or government facility, a public transportation system or an infrastructure facility:

(a) With the intent to cause death or serious bodily injury; or

(b) With the intent to cause extensive destruction of such a place, facility or system, where such destruction results in or is likely to result in major economic loss.​2. Any person also commits an offence if that person attempts to commit an offence as set forth in paragraph 1.​Article 4

Each State Party shall adopt such measures as may be necessary:

(a) To establish as criminal offences under its domestic law the offences set forth in article 2 of this Convention;

(b) To make those offences punishable by appropriate penalties which take into account the grave nature of those offences.​Article 5

Each State Party shall adopt such measures as may be necessary, including, where appropriate, domestic legislation, to ensure that criminal acts within the scope of this Convention, in particular where they are intended or calculated to provoke a state of terror in the general public or in a group of persons or particular persons, are under no circumstances justifiable by considerations of a political, philosophical, ideological, racial, ethnic, religious or other similar nature and are punished by penalties consistent with their grave nature.​Article 6

1. Each State Party shall take such measures as may be necessary to establish its jurisdiction over the offences set forth in article 2 when:

(a) The offence is committed in the territory of that State; or

(b) The offence is committed on board a vessel flying the flag of that State or an aircraft which is registered under the laws of that State at the time the offence is committed; or

(c) The offence is committed by a national of that State.​


Billo_Really said:


> I have a very good understanding of international law and you are full of shit!  There is no legal justification for Israel to be in Gazan territorial waters.  They are there to make life unbearable for Palestinians.  They shoot at their fishermen, they shoot at their farmers and as we have seen in the videos this past two weeks, they shoot at unarmed protesters.
> 
> My opinion is, anyone even attempting to defend such actions, is not only complicit in a crime, but is a piece of shit human.


*(GENERAL REFERENCE)*

(EXCERPT)  Section II. Measures to prevent and combat terrorism 
*ANNEX - Plan of Act**ion*; The Global Counter-Terrorism Strategy in the form of a resolution and an annexed Plan of Action (A/RES/60/288)

We resolve to undertake the following measures to prevent and combat terrorism, in particular by denying terrorists access to the means to carry out their attacks, to their targets and to the desired impact of their attacks:

To strengthen coordination and cooperation among States in combating crimes that might be connected with terrorism, including drug trafficking in all its aspects, illicit arms trade, in particular of small arms and light weapons, including man-portable air defence systems , money laundering and smuggling of nuclear, chemical, biological, radiological and other potentially deadly materials.
*(COMMENT)*

I am so glad that you have a very good understanding of international law.  I am not so knowledgeable, being the layman I am.   I have often thought that people, like yourself, who advocate that action to provoke or incite violence or acts confrontation [S/RES/1624 (2005)] → were just as guilty as the perpetrators themselves.  But I suppose you can cite me the law, for my edification, that promotes this view.

Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## P F Tinmore

RoccoR said:


> RE:  Israeli forces shoot unarmed protesters from across Gaza security fence, killing at least 15
> ※→  Billo_Really,  et al,
> 
> OK, I have cited just a few specific Laws that are involved.
> 
> ✪  San Remo Manual on International Law Applicable to Armed Conflicts at Sea, 12 June 1994
> •  Section V, Paragraph 67​
> ✪   International Small Arms Control Standards (ISACS) 05.60:2012(E)V1.0
> •  8.6.3  Priority areas  •  As a priority, needs should be identified that would ensure a basic border control capacity, with an initial focus on the development of
> a)  human resources in the border control agencies;
> b)  capacity to conduct risk assessments;
> c)  inter-agency cooperation within the State; and
> d)  cross-border cooperation with border agencies in neighbouring States.​✪   The 1997 Terrorist Bombings Convention (EXCERPTS)
> 
> Article 2
> 
> 1. Any person commits an offence within the meaning of this Convention if that person unlawfully and intentionally delivers, places, discharges or detonates an explosive or other lethal device in, into or against a place of public use, a State or government facility, a public transportation system or an infrastructure facility:
> 
> (a) With the intent to cause death or serious bodily injury; or
> 
> (b) With the intent to cause extensive destruction of such a place, facility or system, where such destruction results in or is likely to result in major economic loss.​2. Any person also commits an offence if that person attempts to commit an offence as set forth in paragraph 1.​Article 4
> 
> Each State Party shall adopt such measures as may be necessary:
> 
> (a) To establish as criminal offences under its domestic law the offences set forth in article 2 of this Convention;
> 
> (b) To make those offences punishable by appropriate penalties which take into account the grave nature of those offences.​Article 5
> 
> Each State Party shall adopt such measures as may be necessary, including, where appropriate, domestic legislation, to ensure that criminal acts within the scope of this Convention, in particular where they are intended or calculated to provoke a state of terror in the general public or in a group of persons or particular persons, are under no circumstances justifiable by considerations of a political, philosophical, ideological, racial, ethnic, religious or other similar nature and are punished by penalties consistent with their grave nature.​Article 6
> 
> 1. Each State Party shall take such measures as may be necessary to establish its jurisdiction over the offences set forth in article 2 when:
> 
> (a) The offence is committed in the territory of that State; or
> 
> (b) The offence is committed on board a vessel flying the flag of that State or an aircraft which is registered under the laws of that State at the time the offence is committed; or
> 
> (c) The offence is committed by a national of that State.​
> 
> 
> Billo_Really said:
> 
> 
> 
> I have a very good understanding of international law and you are full of shit!  There is no legal justification for Israel to be in Gazan territorial waters.  They are there to make life unbearable for Palestinians.  They shoot at their fishermen, they shoot at their farmers and as we have seen in the videos this past two weeks, they shoot at unarmed protesters.
> 
> My opinion is, anyone even attempting to defend such actions, is not only complicit in a crime, but is a piece of shit human.
> 
> 
> 
> *(GENERAL REFERENCE)*
> 
> (EXCERPT)  Section II. Measures to prevent and combat terrorism
> *ANNEX - Plan of Act**ion*; The Global Counter-Terrorism Strategy in the form of a resolution and an annexed Plan of Action (A/RES/60/288)
> 
> We resolve to undertake the following measures to prevent and combat terrorism, in particular by denying terrorists access to the means to carry out their attacks, to their targets and to the desired impact of their attacks:
> 
> To strengthen coordination and cooperation among States in combating crimes that might be connected with terrorism, including drug trafficking in all its aspects, illicit arms trade, in particular of small arms and light weapons, including man-portable air defence systems , money laundering and smuggling of nuclear, chemical, biological, radiological and other potentially deadly materials.
> *(COMMENT)*
> 
> I am so glad that you have a very good understanding of international law.  I am not so knowledgeable, being the layman I am.   I have often thought that people, like yourself, who advocate that action to provoke or incite violence or acts confrontation [S/RES/1624 (2005)] → were just as guilty as the perpetrators themselves.  But I suppose you can cite me the law, for my edification, that promotes this view.
> 
> Most Respectfully,
> R
Click to expand...

Relevance?


----------



## Hollie

P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> 
> RE:  Israeli forces shoot unarmed protesters from across Gaza security fence, killing at least 15
> ※→  Billo_Really,  et al,
> 
> OK, I have cited just a few specific Laws that are involved.
> 
> ✪  San Remo Manual on International Law Applicable to Armed Conflicts at Sea, 12 June 1994
> •  Section V, Paragraph 67​
> ✪   International Small Arms Control Standards (ISACS) 05.60:2012(E)V1.0
> •  8.6.3  Priority areas  •  As a priority, needs should be identified that would ensure a basic border control capacity, with an initial focus on the development of
> a)  human resources in the border control agencies;
> b)  capacity to conduct risk assessments;
> c)  inter-agency cooperation within the State; and
> d)  cross-border cooperation with border agencies in neighbouring States.​✪   The 1997 Terrorist Bombings Convention (EXCERPTS)
> 
> Article 2
> 
> 1. Any person commits an offence within the meaning of this Convention if that person unlawfully and intentionally delivers, places, discharges or detonates an explosive or other lethal device in, into or against a place of public use, a State or government facility, a public transportation system or an infrastructure facility:
> 
> (a) With the intent to cause death or serious bodily injury; or
> 
> (b) With the intent to cause extensive destruction of such a place, facility or system, where such destruction results in or is likely to result in major economic loss.​2. Any person also commits an offence if that person attempts to commit an offence as set forth in paragraph 1.​Article 4
> 
> Each State Party shall adopt such measures as may be necessary:
> 
> (a) To establish as criminal offences under its domestic law the offences set forth in article 2 of this Convention;
> 
> (b) To make those offences punishable by appropriate penalties which take into account the grave nature of those offences.​Article 5
> 
> Each State Party shall adopt such measures as may be necessary, including, where appropriate, domestic legislation, to ensure that criminal acts within the scope of this Convention, in particular where they are intended or calculated to provoke a state of terror in the general public or in a group of persons or particular persons, are under no circumstances justifiable by considerations of a political, philosophical, ideological, racial, ethnic, religious or other similar nature and are punished by penalties consistent with their grave nature.​Article 6
> 
> 1. Each State Party shall take such measures as may be necessary to establish its jurisdiction over the offences set forth in article 2 when:
> 
> (a) The offence is committed in the territory of that State; or
> 
> (b) The offence is committed on board a vessel flying the flag of that State or an aircraft which is registered under the laws of that State at the time the offence is committed; or
> 
> (c) The offence is committed by a national of that State.​
> 
> 
> Billo_Really said:
> 
> 
> 
> I have a very good understanding of international law and you are full of shit!  There is no legal justification for Israel to be in Gazan territorial waters.  They are there to make life unbearable for Palestinians.  They shoot at their fishermen, they shoot at their farmers and as we have seen in the videos this past two weeks, they shoot at unarmed protesters.
> 
> My opinion is, anyone even attempting to defend such actions, is not only complicit in a crime, but is a piece of shit human.
> 
> 
> 
> *(GENERAL REFERENCE)*
> 
> (EXCERPT)  Section II. Measures to prevent and combat terrorism
> *ANNEX - Plan of Act**ion*; The Global Counter-Terrorism Strategy in the form of a resolution and an annexed Plan of Action (A/RES/60/288)
> 
> We resolve to undertake the following measures to prevent and combat terrorism, in particular by denying terrorists access to the means to carry out their attacks, to their targets and to the desired impact of their attacks:
> 
> To strengthen coordination and cooperation among States in combating crimes that might be connected with terrorism, including drug trafficking in all its aspects, illicit arms trade, in particular of small arms and light weapons, including man-portable air defence systems , money laundering and smuggling of nuclear, chemical, biological, radiological and other potentially deadly materials.
> *(COMMENT)*
> 
> I am so glad that you have a very good understanding of international law.  I am not so knowledgeable, being the layman I am.   I have often thought that people, like yourself, who advocate that action to provoke or incite violence or acts confrontation [S/RES/1624 (2005)] → were just as guilty as the perpetrators themselves.  But I suppose you can cite me the law, for my edification, that promotes this view.
> 
> Most Respectfully,
> R
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Relevance?
Click to expand...


You’re not paying attention?


----------



## Hollie

Yet another Islamic terrorist publicity stunt has resulted in nothing more than a few dead Arabs-Moslems.


As Palestinian riots fizzle, fears of third intifada die down - Jewish Telegraphic Agency


----------



## P F Tinmore

Hollie said:


> Yet another Islamic terrorist publicity stunt has resulted in nothing more than a few dead Arabs-Moslems.
> 
> 
> As Palestinian riots fizzle, fears of third intifada die down - Jewish Telegraphic Agency


2013?


----------



## Hollie

P F Tinmore said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yet another Islamic terrorist publicity stunt has resulted in nothing more than a few dead Arabs-Moslems.
> 
> 
> As Palestinian riots fizzle, fears of third intifada die down - Jewish Telegraphic Agency
> 
> 
> 
> 2013?
Click to expand...


Link?


----------



## Humanity

Shusha said:


> What was wrong with the one I already posted?



I guess I misses that one where it says that the guy was planting bombs under the fence?!?!



Shusha said:


> Israel has permitted the "peaceful protest" (riots) to occur



That's good of them... To allow protest in neighbouring territory that isn't theirs!



Shusha said:


> Israel has used live fire ONLY as a last resort when suspicious activity was apparent and non-lethal methods were ineffective



Wow really? So, IDF went and spoke to the guy and then, as a "last resort" decided to use a tank to blow the crap out of him? Seriously?

And you aren't wrong about the "special rules for Israel"... Any other country using tank artillery against civilians would be condemned by the world, potentially invaded by the US and allied forces! So yes, you are right, "special rules for Israel".


----------



## Shusha

Humanity said:


> Any other country using tank artillery against civilians ...



He was not a civilian.  He was a combatant with an IED.


----------



## Shusha

See, the underlying issue here, Humanity, is your inability to let go of the "innocent civilian" portrait you paint of Palestinians.  You appear to be claiming that no Gazan has committed acts of violence in this past week.  And that is a latent and fundamental bias stemming, I believe, from your belief in "Israeli (read: Jew) as evil".  If you were to accept that it is the Gazans, the Palestinians, who are committing evil acts at this protest, it would violate that deep bias that you have against Israel/Jews.  But objectively, the facts support my position and not yours.


----------



## Humanity

Shusha said:


> And in the meantime, are you going to condemn the violence and the incitement to violence committed against Israel? I suspect you will not. I suspect you, like others here, feel that Arabs have the right to "resist" while Jews do not have the right to defend themselves. I suspect that you hold double standards with respect to use of force -- one set of rules for Israel and one for others. You are just more careful than others to reveal it.



As you well know, I have always condemned the Hamas regime for many things, including violence.

However, yes, the Palestinians DO have a right to resist. Hell, if they didn't Israel would be much larger than it is already! Legally or otherwise!

As you well know, I have said that Israel has the right to defend itself. No double standards from me on that one!

The issues I have are the excessive use of force by Israel. Something that you will not accept.

And you accuse me of double standards!

Both you and I know that there is such an imbalance of 'forces' yet you consider that tanks are an acceptable answer to stones and slingshots... Want to discuss double standards?


----------



## RetiredGySgt

Slingshots are weapons of war no less deadly than a rifle.


----------



## Shusha

Humanity said:


> The issues I have are the excessive use of force by Israel.



And I have given you many opportunities on this to answer a simple question:  Under what circumstances are Gazans permitted to use lethal force against Israel?  You say that Gazans have a right to "resist" -- does that include to the right to use lethal force?  And under what conditions is lethal force permissible for Gazans?

You have also had opportunities to answer the inverse:  Under what circumstances are Israelis permitted to use lethal force?  You say they have the right to defend themselves -- does that include the right to use lethal force?  And under what conditions is lethal force permissible for Israel?

There is no double standards in my answer to these questions, as I've already indicated.  Let's talk about your answers then.


----------



## Shusha

Humanity said:


> As you well know, I have always condemned the Hamas regime for many things, including violence.



And yet you fail to do this on this very appropriate thread, despite being asked multiple times.  Why is that?


----------



## Humanity

Shusha said:


> Humanity said:
> 
> 
> 
> As you well know, I have always condemned the Hamas regime for many things, including violence.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And yet you fail to do this on this very appropriate thread, despite being asked multiple times.  Why is that?
Click to expand...


Because I have not seen any evidence of the Palestinian, you claim to be planting bombs.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot

Humanity said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> What was wrong with the one I already posted?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I guess I misses that one where it says that the guy was planting bombs under the fence?!?!
> 
> 
> 
> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Israel has permitted the "peaceful protest" (riots) to occur
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> That's good of them... To allow protest in neighbouring territory that isn't theirs!
> 
> 
> 
> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Israel has used live fire ONLY as a last resort when suspicious activity was apparent and non-lethal methods were ineffective
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Wow really? So, IDF went and spoke to the guy and then, as a "last resort" decided to use a tank to blow the crap out of him? Seriously?
> 
> And you aren't wrong about the "special rules for Israel"... Any other country using tank artillery against civilians would be condemned by the world, potentially invaded by the US and allied forces! So yes, you are right, "special rules for Israel".
Click to expand...

*
 Any other country using tank artillery against civilians would be condemned by the world, potentially invaded by the US
*
Any other country firing unguided rockets against civilians would be condemned by the world, potentially invaded by the US, instead we send the Palestinians money.

How fucked up is that?


----------



## Humanity

Shusha said:


> See, the underlying issue here, Humanity, is your inability to let go of the "innocent civilian" portrait you paint of Palestinians.  You appear to be claiming that no Gazan has committed acts of violence in this past week.  And that is a latent and fundamental bias stemming, I believe, from your belief in "Israeli (read: Jew) as evil".  If you were to accept that it is the Gazans, the Palestinians, who are committing evil acts at this protest, it would violate that deep bias that you have against Israel/Jews.  But objectively, the facts support my position and not yours.



See, the underlying issue here is that you will NEVER accept any wrong doing by Israel. Period.

That is where, sadly, you create extremists. 

What is it that you want? Do you want a balanced discussion or just shouting? Until you realise that Jews are no more special than anyone else, they are not gods chosen ones, that Jews may have been persecuted for centuries, but that does NOT give them the right to persecute!

You said it "special rules for Israel" and, I will tell you that people are a bit sick and tired of it...


----------



## Humanity

Toddsterpatriot said:


> Humanity said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> What was wrong with the one I already posted?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I guess I misses that one where it says that the guy was planting bombs under the fence?!?!
> 
> 
> 
> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Israel has permitted the "peaceful protest" (riots) to occur
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> That's good of them... To allow protest in neighbouring territory that isn't theirs!
> 
> 
> 
> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Israel has used live fire ONLY as a last resort when suspicious activity was apparent and non-lethal methods were ineffective
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Wow really? So, IDF went and spoke to the guy and then, as a "last resort" decided to use a tank to blow the crap out of him? Seriously?
> 
> And you aren't wrong about the "special rules for Israel"... Any other country using tank artillery against civilians would be condemned by the world, potentially invaded by the US and allied forces! So yes, you are right, "special rules for Israel".
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> *
> Any other country using tank artillery against civilians would be condemned by the world, potentially invaded by the US
> *
> Any other country firing unguided rockets against civilians would be condemned by the world, potentially invaded by the US, instead we send the Palestinians money.
> 
> How fucked up is that?
Click to expand...


How fucked up is that that you wander off topic with unrelated comments...


----------



## Toddsterpatriot

Humanity said:


> Toddsterpatriot said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Humanity said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> What was wrong with the one I already posted?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I guess I misses that one where it says that the guy was planting bombs under the fence?!?!
> 
> 
> 
> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Israel has permitted the "peaceful protest" (riots) to occur
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> That's good of them... To allow protest in neighbouring territory that isn't theirs!
> 
> 
> 
> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Israel has used live fire ONLY as a last resort when suspicious activity was apparent and non-lethal methods were ineffective
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Wow really? So, IDF went and spoke to the guy and then, as a "last resort" decided to use a tank to blow the crap out of him? Seriously?
> 
> And you aren't wrong about the "special rules for Israel"... Any other country using tank artillery against civilians would be condemned by the world, potentially invaded by the US and allied forces! So yes, you are right, "special rules for Israel".
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> *
> Any other country using tank artillery against civilians would be condemned by the world, potentially invaded by the US
> *
> Any other country firing unguided rockets against civilians would be condemned by the world, potentially invaded by the US, instead we send the Palestinians money.
> 
> How fucked up is that?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> How fucked up is that that you wander off topic with unrelated comments...
Click to expand...


The topic was targeting civilians. Did you miss it? Here>>>>>>>* using tank artillery against civilians
*
Do you see it now?


----------



## rylah

Check this out,
on the 4th of April this was posted by Abu Ali:

*Who were killed in the march of return - the Palestinian media is doing the job for Israel. Just pick up from the floor and use it.*
(warning graphic)

Last Friday, the "March of Return" clashes erupted on the fence with Gaza. At the end, 17 Palestinians were killed and over one thousand wounded Palestinians with varying degrees of injury. According to the Palestinian Ministry of Health, approximately 800 wounded were shot by Israeli snipers.
Numerous claims have been made since then against the excessive use of force by Israel in an attempt to suppress the demonstrations on the fence.
There were also allegations of harm to civilians without distinction by Israeli snipers.
In the attached document, I will present the data about the fatalities as they were raised in the Palestinian media - and by public means.

I would like to point out that in the days after March 30, two more fatalities were added to the list of casualties, and they are included in the document.
The document refers to the 19 victims of the events - and it is correct as of April 4, 2018
Before the data are detailed, and for the sake of readers' convenience, I will note that of the 19 killed there are:

7 Izz al-Din al-Qassam Brigades operatives from the Izz al-Din al-Qassam Brigades
1 The operative of the military wing of the Islamic Jihad, Saraya al-Quds
2 Activists of Katayef al-Maqawama al-Wataniya al-Filastina - the military wing of the Democratic Front
1 An operative of the al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades, the military wing of Fatah, the Shahid Nakhl al-'Amudi faction
1 Hamas security forces operative (armed)
1 A military activist of the Fatah movement
1 Shada al-Aqsa - the Shahid unit Nabil Mas'ud - an Iranian-oriented faction
1 A Hamas-affiliated operative with an orientation to the Izz al-Din al-Qassam Brigades.
1 Fatah activist - It has not been proven that he is a military activist
3 without any significant organizational affiliation

Total of 15 persons with actual military identification.
Another 4 whose connection to military activity has not been proven.

Note: Failure to find the contact in the Palestinian media openly does not indicate that they are not active in the military.
Another important factor to consider when examining the identity and affiliation of those killed is the fact that out of 19 fatalities, it is possible to clearly identify 15 military operatives, ie around 80% of those killed.
The entire Gaza Strip has fewer than 70,000 military operatives, including all the various organizations. Gaza has a population of 2 million today. In other words, the percentage of military operatives out of the total population is less than 3.5%.
Thus, the dry facts show that although the share of military operatives in the population is only 3.5 percent, in practice, 80 percent of those killed are military operatives. That is, 23 times their percentage in the population. This high rate of casualties is even more astonishing in light of the fact that they were dressed in civilian clothes and could not be identified in advance as military activists.





On April 5th in the early morning (3:55 am)
known Hamas affiliated twitter account posted a short warning:

"Do not publish any military photos of martyrs back in Bata."
amir.nafsy on Twitter


Abu Ali only showed how easily available this information for the average Arab speaker,
draw up Your own conclusions.


----------



## Shusha

Humanity said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Humanity said:
> 
> 
> 
> As you well know, I have always condemned the Hamas regime for many things, including violence.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And yet you fail to do this on this very appropriate thread, despite being asked multiple times.  Why is that?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Because I have not seen any evidence of the Palestinian, you claim to be planting bombs.
Click to expand...


Your argument, then, is that he was an innocent farmer planting melons under the fence on the morning of a protest/riot inside a 300m no-go zone which has existed for ten years, after reading the social media and delivered pamphlets that instructed protesters not to approach the fence during the protest.  

Out of curiosity, are you denying ALL of the incidences of IEDs planted along the fence in the past weeks, or just this one?


----------



## Humanity

Toddsterpatriot said:


> Humanity said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Toddsterpatriot said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Humanity said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> What was wrong with the one I already posted?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I guess I misses that one where it says that the guy was planting bombs under the fence?!?!
> 
> 
> 
> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Israel has permitted the "peaceful protest" (riots) to occur
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> That's good of them... To allow protest in neighbouring territory that isn't theirs!
> 
> 
> 
> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Israel has used live fire ONLY as a last resort when suspicious activity was apparent and non-lethal methods were ineffective
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Wow really? So, IDF went and spoke to the guy and then, as a "last resort" decided to use a tank to blow the crap out of him? Seriously?
> 
> And you aren't wrong about the "special rules for Israel"... Any other country using tank artillery against civilians would be condemned by the world, potentially invaded by the US and allied forces! So yes, you are right, "special rules for Israel".
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> *
> Any other country using tank artillery against civilians would be condemned by the world, potentially invaded by the US
> *
> Any other country firing unguided rockets against civilians would be condemned by the world, potentially invaded by the US, instead we send the Palestinians money.
> 
> How fucked up is that?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> How fucked up is that that you wander off topic with unrelated comments...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The topic was targeting civilians. Did you miss it? Here>>>>>>>* using tank artillery against civilians
> *
> Do you see it now?
Click to expand...


The topic was the killing of a Palestinian BEFORE the protests by use of tank artillery...

Now, perhaps keep up or piss off!


----------



## Shusha

Humanity said:


> What is it that you want? Do you want a balanced discussion or just shouting? Until you realise that Jews are no more special than anyone else, they are not gods chosen ones, that Jews may have been persecuted for centuries, but that does NOT give them the right to persecute!
> 
> You said it "special rules for Israel" and, I will tell you that people are a bit sick and tired of it...



Special rules?  I am suggesting, on this thread, that Israel be "permitted" to legally and morally use lethal force on those who are literally, in the moment, using lethal force on her!  The HORROR!  

(And, btw, I have NEVER played the "chosen ones" card on this board.  Nor, to my recollection, has any other person on Team Israel.  The very fact that you bring this up is an indication of YOUR bias.  Not mine.)


----------



## Humanity

Shusha said:


> Humanity said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Humanity said:
> 
> 
> 
> As you well know, I have always condemned the Hamas regime for many things, including violence.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And yet you fail to do this on this very appropriate thread, despite being asked multiple times.  Why is that?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Because I have not seen any evidence of the Palestinian, you claim to be planting bombs.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Your argument, then, is that he was an innocent farmer planting melons under the fence on the morning of a protest/riot inside a 300m no-go zone which has existed for ten years, after reading the social media and delivered pamphlets that instructed protesters not to approach the fence during the protest.
> 
> Out of curiosity, are you denying ALL of the incidences of IEDs planted along the fence in the past weeks, or just this one?
Click to expand...


My argument is that the tank shelling of a farmer BEFORE the march has not, in any way, been shown as a justifiable attack on a "combatant".

I am still waiting for your proof to support this.


----------



## Humanity

Shusha said:


> Nor, to my recollection, has any other person on Team Israel.



Fascinating... I have heard of selective hearing, never selective reading!

I guess that just shows YOUR bias, not mine!


----------



## Toddsterpatriot

Humanity said:


> Toddsterpatriot said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Humanity said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Toddsterpatriot said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Humanity said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> What was wrong with the one I already posted?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I guess I misses that one where it says that the guy was planting bombs under the fence?!?!
> 
> 
> 
> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Israel has permitted the "peaceful protest" (riots) to occur
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> That's good of them... To allow protest in neighbouring territory that isn't theirs!
> 
> 
> 
> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Israel has used live fire ONLY as a last resort when suspicious activity was apparent and non-lethal methods were ineffective
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Wow really? So, IDF went and spoke to the guy and then, as a "last resort" decided to use a tank to blow the crap out of him? Seriously?
> 
> And you aren't wrong about the "special rules for Israel"... Any other country using tank artillery against civilians would be condemned by the world, potentially invaded by the US and allied forces! So yes, you are right, "special rules for Israel".
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> *
> Any other country using tank artillery against civilians would be condemned by the world, potentially invaded by the US
> *
> Any other country firing unguided rockets against civilians would be condemned by the world, potentially invaded by the US, instead we send the Palestinians money.
> 
> How fucked up is that?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> How fucked up is that that you wander off topic with unrelated comments...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The topic was targeting civilians. Did you miss it? Here>>>>>>>* using tank artillery against civilians
> *
> Do you see it now?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The topic was the killing of a Palestinian BEFORE the protests by use of tank artillery...
> 
> Now, perhaps keep up or piss off!
Click to expand...


No, the topic was how can people who target civilians not get condemned.

I agree, we should condemn the Palestinians who do that. 

Maybe your Palestinian terrorists...err...farmers should farm further away from the border, eh?


----------



## Shusha

Humanity said:


> My argument is that the tank shelling of a farmer BEFORE the march has not, in any way, been shown as a justifiable attack on a "combatant".
> 
> I am still waiting for your proof to support this.



What proof could I possibly offer?  What are the standards of proof?

He was digging under the fence, inside a no-go zone that was established ten years ago, at a time when IEDs are being planted in holes dug in the ground under the fence, on a day of a massive protest, when Hamas is shouting from the rooftops that they plan to breach the fence into sovereign Israel territory.  There is video of the event.  

What is the missing piece of information here?  What is the standard here?

Is it:  "Israel must not use lethal force unless it has video evidence that the alleged perpetrator was holding an explosive or otherwise harmful device which is clearly identifiable to the lay man in Western countries and that this video must be published within 12 hours of any use of force?"


----------



## Shusha

Humanity said:


> Fascinating... I have heard of selective hearing, never selective reading!



Speaking of selective reading....Why are you still avoiding my core question?

This isn't hard.  

"I condemn the use of lethal force by Gazans to achieve political aims."


----------



## Humanity

Toddsterpatriot said:


> Humanity said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Toddsterpatriot said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Humanity said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Toddsterpatriot said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Humanity said:
> 
> 
> 
> I guess I misses that one where it says that the guy was planting bombs under the fence?!?!
> 
> That's good of them... To allow protest in neighbouring territory that isn't theirs!
> 
> Wow really? So, IDF went and spoke to the guy and then, as a "last resort" decided to use a tank to blow the crap out of him? Seriously?
> 
> And you aren't wrong about the "special rules for Israel"... Any other country using tank artillery against civilians would be condemned by the world, potentially invaded by the US and allied forces! So yes, you are right, "special rules for Israel".
> 
> 
> 
> *
> Any other country using tank artillery against civilians would be condemned by the world, potentially invaded by the US
> *
> Any other country firing unguided rockets against civilians would be condemned by the world, potentially invaded by the US, instead we send the Palestinians money.
> 
> How fucked up is that?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> How fucked up is that that you wander off topic with unrelated comments...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The topic was targeting civilians. Did you miss it? Here>>>>>>>* using tank artillery against civilians
> *
> Do you see it now?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The topic was the killing of a Palestinian BEFORE the protests by use of tank artillery...
> 
> Now, perhaps keep up or piss off!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No, the topic was how can people who target civilians not get condemned.
> 
> I agree, we should condemn the Palestinians who do that.
> 
> Maybe your Palestinian terrorists...err...farmers should farm further away from the border, eh?
Click to expand...


As I said maybe you should try and keep up!

Either join in the conversation or not... Oh, maybe YOU have some proof of the farmer who was blow to shit by tank artillery was actually planting a bomb? No one else has been able to come up with that one!

Ah, wait, maybe we should just accept the word of the zionists, is that the answer?


----------



## Humanity

Shusha said:


> What proof could I possibly offer



Well, proof of your argument would be a start. Don't you think?


----------



## Shusha

Humanity said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> What proof could I possibly offer
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well, proof of your argument would be a start. Don't you think?
Click to expand...


I have already provided what proof there is -- a statement by the IDF containing the facts I have posted.  (The very post you quoted here, actually).  

So what are you denying?  Are you denying any of the points of my argument or are you agreeing with those points but want some sort of further proof?


----------



## Toddsterpatriot

Humanity said:


> Toddsterpatriot said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Humanity said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Toddsterpatriot said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Humanity said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Toddsterpatriot said:
> 
> 
> 
> * Any other country using tank artillery against civilians would be condemned by the world, potentially invaded by the US
> *
> Any other country firing unguided rockets against civilians would be condemned by the world, potentially invaded by the US, instead we send the Palestinians money.
> 
> How fucked up is that?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How fucked up is that that you wander off topic with unrelated comments...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The topic was targeting civilians. Did you miss it? Here>>>>>>>* using tank artillery against civilians
> *
> Do you see it now?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The topic was the killing of a Palestinian BEFORE the protests by use of tank artillery...
> 
> Now, perhaps keep up or piss off!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No, the topic was how can people who target civilians not get condemned.
> 
> I agree, we should condemn the Palestinians who do that.
> 
> Maybe your Palestinian terrorists...err...farmers should farm further away from the border, eh?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> As I said maybe you should try and keep up!
> 
> Either join in the conversation or not... Oh, maybe YOU have some proof of the farmer who was blow to shit by tank artillery was actually planting a bomb? No one else has been able to come up with that one!
> 
> Ah, wait, maybe we should just accept the word of the zionists, is that the answer?
Click to expand...


You should post the video of him peacefully farming well away from the fence before the shell killed him.

I'll wait.


----------



## rylah

Humanity said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> What proof could I possibly offer
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well, proof of your argument would be a start. Don't you think?
Click to expand...


Are You being infantile on purpose?

Hamas clearly stated the intent before the action. They keep inciting for violence ontheir media, while portraying it a a "march of chicken" to the gullible westerners.

In light of that Israel sent every Gazan multiple messages directly, explaining  the consequences of violent actions and what would be viewed as such. I don't care if it's artillery,drone, tank or a sniper against a catapult or someone with a grenade, if it endangers our soldiers on the ground who protect the civilians who live just in 5 min ride from the fence, the lines are set and clear.


----------



## rylah

Humanity

# Urgent
  A bomb exploded near the border fence in the northern Gaza Strip
موسى حمد on Twitter

# Urgent "Mfzak Life" Hebrew: a bag containing explosive devices exploded near the border fence in the northern Gaza Strip.
بيت دجن /beit dajan on Twitter


----------



## RoccoR

RE:  Israeli forces shoot unarmed protesters from across Gaza security fence, killing at least 15
※→  Humanity, _et al,_

The "right to resist" is not the issue.  The issue is about directing actual "violence" directed against the "Occupying Power."



Humanity said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> And in the meantime, are you going to condemn the violence and the incitement to violence committed against Israel? I suspect you will not. I suspect you, like others here, feel that Arabs have the right to "resist" while Jews do not have the right to defend themselves. I suspect that you hold double standards with respect to use of force -- one set of rules for Israel and one for others. You are just more careful than others to reveal it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As you well know, I have always condemned the Hamas regime for many things, including violence.
> 
> However, yes, the Palestinians DO have a right to resist. Hell, if they didn't Israel would be much larger than it is already! Legally or otherwise!
> 
> As you well know, I have said that Israel has the right to defend itself. No double standards from me on that one!
> 
> The issues I have are the excessive use of force by Israel. Something that you will not accept.
> 
> And you accuse me of double standards!
> 
> Both you and I know that there is such an imbalance of 'forces' yet you consider that tanks are an acceptable answer to stones and slingshots... Want to discuss double standards?
Click to expand...

*(COMMENT)*

I would like to remind you if the obligations under the International Human Rights Law/

※  *Article 68*  ※   Convention (IV) relative to the Protection of Civilian Persons in Time of War. Geneva, 12 August 1949.

Protected persons _(Arab Palestinians)_ who commit an offence which is solely intended to harm the Occupying Power _(Israel)_, but which does not constitute an attempt on the life or limb of members of the occupying forces or administration, nor a grave collective danger, nor seriously damage the property of the occupying forces or administration or the installations used by them, shall be liable to internment or simple imprisonment, provided the duration of such internment or imprisonment is proportionate to the offence committed. Furthermore, internment or imprisonment shall, for such offences, be the only measure adopted for depriving protected persons of liberty. The courts provided for under Article 66  of the present Convention may at their discretion convert a sentence of imprisonment to one of internment for the same period.
The penal provisions promulgated by the Occupying Power _(Israel)_ in accordance with Articles 64  and 65  may impose the death penalty on a protected person _(Arab Palestinians)_ only in cases where the person is guilty of espionage, of serious acts of sabotage against the military installations of the Occupying Power _(Israel)_ or of intentional offences which have caused the death of one or more persons, provided that such offences were punishable by death under the law of the occupied territory in force before the occupation began.
The death penalty may not be pronounced against a protected person unless the attention of the court has been particularly called to the fact that since the accused is not a national of the Occupying Power, he is not bound to it by any duty of allegiance.
 In any case, the death penalty may not be pronounced against a protected person who was under eighteen years of age at the time of the offence.​
※   *Article 75*  ※  Fundamental Guarantees  Protocol Additional to the Geneva Conventions of 12 August 1949, and relating to the Protection of Victims of International Armed Conflicts (Protocol I)


 1. In so far as they are affected by a situation referred to in Article 1 [ Link ]  of this Protocol, persons who are in the power of a Party to the conflict and who do not benefit from more favourable treatment under the Conventions or under this Protocol shall be treated humanely in all circumstances and shall enjoy, as a minimum, the protection provided by this Article without any adverse distinction based upon race, colour, sex, language, religion or belief, political or other opinion, national or social origin, wealth, birth or other status, or on any other similar criteria. Each Party shall respect the person, honour, convictions and religious practices of all such persons.

 2. The following acts are and shall remain prohibited at any time and in any place whatsoever, whether committed by civilian or by military agents:

(a) violence to the life, health, or physical or mental well-being of persons, in particular:

 (i) murder;

 (ii) torture of all kinds, whether physical or mental;

 (iii) corporal punishment; and

 (iv) mutilation;​(b) outrages upon personal dignity, in particular humiliating and degrading treatment, enforced prostitution and any form of indecent assault;

(c) the taking of hostages;

(d) collective punishments; and

(e) threats to commit any of the foregoing acts.​
This is what is meant by the "Rule of Law."  What the Hostile Arab Palestinians (HoAP) must understand, is that if they commit an act, that would be a crime in any other reasonable circumstance, that it would also be a crime in the occupied territories.  There is a consequence to thei ractions and they are obliged to pay it. 

Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## Shusha

Humanity 

IDF spokesman has stated there have been EIGHT IEDs planted or thrown in the past week of the protest.  There were three, I believe, in February and March leading up to the protest.  Oh sorry, that should read "peaceful" protest.


----------



## Humanity

Toddsterpatriot said:


> Humanity said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Toddsterpatriot said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Humanity said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Toddsterpatriot said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Humanity said:
> 
> 
> 
> How fucked up is that that you wander off topic with unrelated comments...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The topic was targeting civilians. Did you miss it? Here>>>>>>>* using tank artillery against civilians
> *
> Do you see it now?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The topic was the killing of a Palestinian BEFORE the protests by use of tank artillery...
> 
> Now, perhaps keep up or piss off!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No, the topic was how can people who target civilians not get condemned.
> 
> I agree, we should condemn the Palestinians who do that.
> 
> Maybe your Palestinian terrorists...err...farmers should farm further away from the border, eh?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> As I said maybe you should try and keep up!
> 
> Either join in the conversation or not... Oh, maybe YOU have some proof of the farmer who was blow to shit by tank artillery was actually planting a bomb? No one else has been able to come up with that one!
> 
> Ah, wait, maybe we should just accept the word of the zionists, is that the answer?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You should post the video of him peacefully farming well away from the fence before the shell killed him.
> 
> I'll wait.
Click to expand...


It's not my responsibility to post anything...

It's yours.

Post a video of the farmer, the day before the march started, planting a bomb under the fence. Post a video of other means being used before the "last resort".

Go on, at least post something that supports yours and others claims that he was planting a bomb.


----------



## Mindful

The Most Telling Images from Friday’s March of Return Redux.

Extreme violence, attempts to infiltrate Israel by breaching the security fence, child abuse, overt antisemitism, hatred of the US, and clear propaganda. The palestinian so-called “March of Return” had it all. Peaceful protests? Not so much.

The following images from the violent “protest” say it all.

The Most Telling Images from Friday’s March of Return Redux


----------



## Mindful

Coming soon: the Zionists gave us cancer because they made us want to burn tires, the fumes of which got into our lungs.




Palestinians Stockpiling Tires For Planned March of Return Shenanigans
Palestinians are stockpiling thousands of tires to burn at the Gaza border on Friday in a bid to blur the vision of Israeli soldiers with smoke and flames.
ISRAELLYCOOL.COM


----------



## Humanity

RoccoR said:


> RE:  Israeli forces shoot unarmed protesters from across Gaza security fence, killing at least 15
> ※→  Humanity, _et al,_
> 
> The "right to resist" is not the issue.  The issue is about directing actual "violence" directed against the "Occupying Power."
> 
> 
> 
> Humanity said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> And in the meantime, are you going to condemn the violence and the incitement to violence committed against Israel? I suspect you will not. I suspect you, like others here, feel that Arabs have the right to "resist" while Jews do not have the right to defend themselves. I suspect that you hold double standards with respect to use of force -- one set of rules for Israel and one for others. You are just more careful than others to reveal it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As you well know, I have always condemned the Hamas regime for many things, including violence.
> 
> However, yes, the Palestinians DO have a right to resist. Hell, if they didn't Israel would be much larger than it is already! Legally or otherwise!
> 
> As you well know, I have said that Israel has the right to defend itself. No double standards from me on that one!
> 
> The issues I have are the excessive use of force by Israel. Something that you will not accept.
> 
> And you accuse me of double standards!
> 
> Both you and I know that there is such an imbalance of 'forces' yet you consider that tanks are an acceptable answer to stones and slingshots... Want to discuss double standards?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> *(COMMENT)*
> 
> I would like to remind you if the obligations under the International Human Rights Law/
> 
> ※  *Article 68*  ※   Convention (IV) relative to the Protection of Civilian Persons in Time of War. Geneva, 12 August 1949.
> 
> Protected persons _(Arab Palestinians)_ who commit an offence which is solely intended to harm the Occupying Power _(Israel)_, but which does not constitute an attempt on the life or limb of members of the occupying forces or administration, nor a grave collective danger, nor seriously damage the property of the occupying forces or administration or the installations used by them, shall be liable to internment or simple imprisonment, provided the duration of such internment or imprisonment is proportionate to the offence committed. Furthermore, internment or imprisonment shall, for such offences, be the only measure adopted for depriving protected persons of liberty. The courts provided for under Article 66  of the present Convention may at their discretion convert a sentence of imprisonment to one of internment for the same period.
> The penal provisions promulgated by the Occupying Power _(Israel)_ in accordance with Articles 64  and 65  may impose the death penalty on a protected person _(Arab Palestinians)_ only in cases where the person is guilty of espionage, of serious acts of sabotage against the military installations of the Occupying Power _(Israel)_ or of intentional offences which have caused the death of one or more persons, provided that such offences were punishable by death under the law of the occupied territory in force before the occupation began.
> The death penalty may not be pronounced against a protected person unless the attention of the court has been particularly called to the fact that since the accused is not a national of the Occupying Power, he is not bound to it by any duty of allegiance.
> In any case, the death penalty may not be pronounced against a protected person who was under eighteen years of age at the time of the offence.​
> ※   *Article 75*  ※  Fundamental Guarantees  Protocol Additional to the Geneva Conventions of 12 August 1949, and relating to the Protection of Victims of International Armed Conflicts (Protocol I)
> 
> 1. In so far as they are affected by a situation referred to in Article 1 [ Link ]  of this Protocol, persons who are in the power of a Party to the conflict and who do not benefit from more favourable treatment under the Conventions or under this Protocol shall be treated humanely in all circumstances and shall enjoy, as a minimum, the protection provided by this Article without any adverse distinction based upon race, colour, sex, language, religion or belief, political or other opinion, national or social origin, wealth, birth or other status, or on any other similar criteria. Each Party shall respect the person, honour, convictions and religious practices of all such persons.
> 
> 2. The following acts are and shall remain prohibited at any time and in any place whatsoever, whether committed by civilian or by military agents:
> (a) violence to the life, health, or physical or mental well-being of persons, in particular:
> 
> (i) murder;
> 
> (ii) torture of all kinds, whether physical or mental;
> 
> (iii) corporal punishment; and
> 
> (iv) mutilation;​(b) outrages upon personal dignity, in particular humiliating and degrading treatment, enforced prostitution and any form of indecent assault;
> 
> (c) the taking of hostages;
> 
> (d) collective punishments; and
> 
> (e) threats to commit any of the foregoing acts.​This is what is meant by the "Rule of Law."  What the Hostile Arab Palestinians (HoAP) must understand, is that if they commit an act, that would be a crime in any other reasonable circumstance, that it would also be a crime in the occupied territories.  There is a consequence to thei ractions and they are obliged to pay it.
> 
> Most Respectfully,
> R
Click to expand...


That is funny...

Quoting Geneva Conventions to support Israel! hahahaha

Where does it say in the Geneva Conventions that its ok to use tanks against civilians?


----------



## Roudy

Mindful said:


> The Most Telling Images from Friday’s March of Return Redux.
> 
> Extreme violence, attempts to infiltrate Israel by breaching the security fence, child abuse, overt antisemitism, hatred of the US, and clear propaganda. The palestinian so-called “March of Return” had it all. Peaceful protests? Not so much.
> 
> The following images from the violent “protest” say it all.
> 
> The Most Telling Images from Friday’s March of Return Redux


I bet anything you they got the idea and name for the march from Left wing Islamist loving groups here in the US.


----------



## rylah

Humanity said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> 
> RE:  Israeli forces shoot unarmed protesters from across Gaza security fence, killing at least 15
> ※→  Humanity, _et al,_
> 
> The "right to resist" is not the issue.  The issue is about directing actual "violence" directed against the "Occupying Power."
> 
> 
> 
> Humanity said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> And in the meantime, are you going to condemn the violence and the incitement to violence committed against Israel? I suspect you will not. I suspect you, like others here, feel that Arabs have the right to "resist" while Jews do not have the right to defend themselves. I suspect that you hold double standards with respect to use of force -- one set of rules for Israel and one for others. You are just more careful than others to reveal it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As you well know, I have always condemned the Hamas regime for many things, including violence.
> 
> However, yes, the Palestinians DO have a right to resist. Hell, if they didn't Israel would be much larger than it is already! Legally or otherwise!
> 
> As you well know, I have said that Israel has the right to defend itself. No double standards from me on that one!
> 
> The issues I have are the excessive use of force by Israel. Something that you will not accept.
> 
> And you accuse me of double standards!
> 
> Both you and I know that there is such an imbalance of 'forces' yet you consider that tanks are an acceptable answer to stones and slingshots... Want to discuss double standards?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> *(COMMENT)*
> 
> I would like to remind you if the obligations under the International Human Rights Law/
> 
> ※  *Article 68*  ※   Convention (IV) relative to the Protection of Civilian Persons in Time of War. Geneva, 12 August 1949.
> 
> Protected persons _(Arab Palestinians)_ who commit an offence which is solely intended to harm the Occupying Power _(Israel)_, but which does not constitute an attempt on the life or limb of members of the occupying forces or administration, nor a grave collective danger, nor seriously damage the property of the occupying forces or administration or the installations used by them, shall be liable to internment or simple imprisonment, provided the duration of such internment or imprisonment is proportionate to the offence committed. Furthermore, internment or imprisonment shall, for such offences, be the only measure adopted for depriving protected persons of liberty. The courts provided for under Article 66  of the present Convention may at their discretion convert a sentence of imprisonment to one of internment for the same period.
> The penal provisions promulgated by the Occupying Power _(Israel)_ in accordance with Articles 64  and 65  may impose the death penalty on a protected person _(Arab Palestinians)_ only in cases where the person is guilty of espionage, of serious acts of sabotage against the military installations of the Occupying Power _(Israel)_ or of intentional offences which have caused the death of one or more persons, provided that such offences were punishable by death under the law of the occupied territory in force before the occupation began.
> The death penalty may not be pronounced against a protected person unless the attention of the court has been particularly called to the fact that since the accused is not a national of the Occupying Power, he is not bound to it by any duty of allegiance.
> In any case, the death penalty may not be pronounced against a protected person who was under eighteen years of age at the time of the offence.​
> ※   *Article 75*  ※  Fundamental Guarantees  Protocol Additional to the Geneva Conventions of 12 August 1949, and relating to the Protection of Victims of International Armed Conflicts (Protocol I)
> 
> 1. In so far as they are affected by a situation referred to in Article 1 [ Link ]  of this Protocol, persons who are in the power of a Party to the conflict and who do not benefit from more favourable treatment under the Conventions or under this Protocol shall be treated humanely in all circumstances and shall enjoy, as a minimum, the protection provided by this Article without any adverse distinction based upon race, colour, sex, language, religion or belief, political or other opinion, national or social origin, wealth, birth or other status, or on any other similar criteria. Each Party shall respect the person, honour, convictions and religious practices of all such persons.
> 
> 2. The following acts are and shall remain prohibited at any time and in any place whatsoever, whether committed by civilian or by military agents:
> (a) violence to the life, health, or physical or mental well-being of persons, in particular:
> 
> (i) murder;
> 
> (ii) torture of all kinds, whether physical or mental;
> 
> (iii) corporal punishment; and
> 
> (iv) mutilation;​(b) outrages upon personal dignity, in particular humiliating and degrading treatment, enforced prostitution and any form of indecent assault;
> 
> (c) the taking of hostages;
> 
> (d) collective punishments; and
> 
> (e) threats to commit any of the foregoing acts.​This is what is meant by the "Rule of Law."  What the Hostile Arab Palestinians (HoAP) must understand, is that if they commit an act, that would be a crime in any other reasonable circumstance, that it would also be a crime in the occupied territories.  There is a consequence to thei ractions and they are obliged to pay it.
> 
> Most Respectfully,
> R
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> That is funny...
> 
> Quoting Geneva Conventions to support Israel! hahahaha
> 
> Where does it say in the Geneva Conventions that its ok to use tanks against civilians?
Click to expand...

In the same paragraph where it states that Hamas is a farmers union , and that You get the best yield by plowing under military fences - EXCLUSIVELY AT NIGHT.


----------



## Mindful

More Pallywood.



The Palestinian Information Center would like the world to know that so great is international support for their cause, that doctors from overseas are coming to offer medical assistance to their wounded protesters.

Like this young doctor from France.





For the record, Katherine Heigl is not French, nor is she a real doctor. She did play one on TV on the hit show Grey’s Anatomy from 2005-2010, though.

Palestinian Information Center, did you really believe you would get away with posting a photo of a well-known actress and passing her off as a doctor?

Apparently so – which just goes to show the contempt with which you treat our intelligence – not to mention the truth.

Update: The doctor from Spain is reportedly on his way (hat tip: Arsen)





Updated: “..we are committed to truth and credible news.” Yup, they said that.







Israellycool.com


----------



## RetiredGySgt

Humanity said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> 
> RE:  Israeli forces shoot unarmed protesters from across Gaza security fence, killing at least 15
> ※→  Humanity, _et al,_
> 
> The "right to resist" is not the issue.  The issue is about directing actual "violence" directed against the "Occupying Power."
> 
> 
> 
> Humanity said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> And in the meantime, are you going to condemn the violence and the incitement to violence committed against Israel? I suspect you will not. I suspect you, like others here, feel that Arabs have the right to "resist" while Jews do not have the right to defend themselves. I suspect that you hold double standards with respect to use of force -- one set of rules for Israel and one for others. You are just more careful than others to reveal it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As you well know, I have always condemned the Hamas regime for many things, including violence.
> 
> However, yes, the Palestinians DO have a right to resist. Hell, if they didn't Israel would be much larger than it is already! Legally or otherwise!
> 
> As you well know, I have said that Israel has the right to defend itself. No double standards from me on that one!
> 
> The issues I have are the excessive use of force by Israel. Something that you will not accept.
> 
> And you accuse me of double standards!
> 
> Both you and I know that there is such an imbalance of 'forces' yet you consider that tanks are an acceptable answer to stones and slingshots... Want to discuss double standards?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> *(COMMENT)*
> 
> I would like to remind you if the obligations under the International Human Rights Law/
> 
> ※  *Article 68*  ※   Convention (IV) relative to the Protection of Civilian Persons in Time of War. Geneva, 12 August 1949.
> 
> Protected persons _(Arab Palestinians)_ who commit an offence which is solely intended to harm the Occupying Power _(Israel)_, but which does not constitute an attempt on the life or limb of members of the occupying forces or administration, nor a grave collective danger, nor seriously damage the property of the occupying forces or administration or the installations used by them, shall be liable to internment or simple imprisonment, provided the duration of such internment or imprisonment is proportionate to the offence committed. Furthermore, internment or imprisonment shall, for such offences, be the only measure adopted for depriving protected persons of liberty. The courts provided for under Article 66  of the present Convention may at their discretion convert a sentence of imprisonment to one of internment for the same period.
> The penal provisions promulgated by the Occupying Power _(Israel)_ in accordance with Articles 64  and 65  may impose the death penalty on a protected person _(Arab Palestinians)_ only in cases where the person is guilty of espionage, of serious acts of sabotage against the military installations of the Occupying Power _(Israel)_ or of intentional offences which have caused the death of one or more persons, provided that such offences were punishable by death under the law of the occupied territory in force before the occupation began.
> The death penalty may not be pronounced against a protected person unless the attention of the court has been particularly called to the fact that since the accused is not a national of the Occupying Power, he is not bound to it by any duty of allegiance.
> In any case, the death penalty may not be pronounced against a protected person who was under eighteen years of age at the time of the offence.​
> ※   *Article 75*  ※  Fundamental Guarantees  Protocol Additional to the Geneva Conventions of 12 August 1949, and relating to the Protection of Victims of International Armed Conflicts (Protocol I)
> 
> 1. In so far as they are affected by a situation referred to in Article 1 [ Link ]  of this Protocol, persons who are in the power of a Party to the conflict and who do not benefit from more favourable treatment under the Conventions or under this Protocol shall be treated humanely in all circumstances and shall enjoy, as a minimum, the protection provided by this Article without any adverse distinction based upon race, colour, sex, language, religion or belief, political or other opinion, national or social origin, wealth, birth or other status, or on any other similar criteria. Each Party shall respect the person, honour, convictions and religious practices of all such persons.
> 
> 2. The following acts are and shall remain prohibited at any time and in any place whatsoever, whether committed by civilian or by military agents:
> (a) violence to the life, health, or physical or mental well-being of persons, in particular:
> 
> (i) murder;
> 
> (ii) torture of all kinds, whether physical or mental;
> 
> (iii) corporal punishment; and
> 
> (iv) mutilation;​(b) outrages upon personal dignity, in particular humiliating and degrading treatment, enforced prostitution and any form of indecent assault;
> 
> (c) the taking of hostages;
> 
> (d) collective punishments; and
> 
> (e) threats to commit any of the foregoing acts.​This is what is meant by the "Rule of Law."  What the Hostile Arab Palestinians (HoAP) must understand, is that if they commit an act, that would be a crime in any other reasonable circumstance, that it would also be a crime in the occupied territories.  There is a consequence to thei ractions and they are obliged to pay it.
> 
> Most Respectfully,
> R
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> That is funny...
> 
> Quoting Geneva Conventions to support Israel! hahahaha
> 
> Where does it say in the Geneva Conventions that its ok to use tanks against civilians?
Click to expand...

When planting a bomb one is NO LONGER a civilian.


----------



## RoccoR

RE:  Israeli forces shoot unarmed protesters from across Gaza security fence, killing at least 15
※→  Humanity, _et al,_

This is somewhat amusing as well!

Your question is backward.   What law says:   you may use a "sling shot" or a "BB Gun" in a conflict?  Your question is rediculous.  



Humanity said:


> Where does it say in the Geneva Conventions that its ok to use tanks against civilians?


*(COMMENT)*

Criminal Laws, as you know, usually are formed in the shape of a prohibition.  Similarly, protection and restraining orders (very similar to the Geneva Conventions) are formed in the cast of "limitations."

You generally see a "STOP Sign;" you hardly ever see a "GO Sign."
You generally see a "NO Tresspass" condition; rarely the opposite.
The 10 Commandments are a series of "SHALL NOTs;" as opposed to allowances and clearances.
Most people generally believe that spies can be executed on capture.  But is it true? 

Additional Protocol I says in part:  "Consequently, the summary execution of spies is prohibited."
Prohibitions are popular because there are few i number tan freedoms, rights, and allowances. 

Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## RoccoR

RE:  Israeli forces shoot unarmed protesters from across Gaza security fence, killing at least 15
※→  Humanity, RetiredGySgt, _et al,_

The RetiredGySgt is correct; ✪⇒ 100% correct.

The use of crowds or concentrations of demonstrators as a means to cover and conseal Hostile Arab Palestinian activity is prohibited.  



RetiredGySgt said:


> When planting a bomb one is NO LONGER a civilian.


*(COMMENT)*

Under the International Criminal Code, “killing or wounding treacherously individuals belonging to the hostile nation or army” constitutes a war crime in international armed conflicts."  Similarly, utilizing the presence of a crowds or concentrations of demonstrators to render HoAP activities immune from a defensive response  constitutes a war crime in international armed conflicts.  And again, the use of certain emblems by the HoAP, (like that of the Red Cross or UN) to avoid targeting and lend protection from the Israelis while the HoAP perform their nafarious activities is prohibiled.

※  Rule 59:   The improper use of the distinctive emblems of the Geneva Conventions is prohibited.
※  Rule 65:   Killing, injuring or capturing an adversary by resort to perfidy is prohibited.
※  Rule 97:   The use of human shields is prohibited.​
This particular combination, as employed by the HoAP for the last half century is covered in Article 37 of Additional Protocol I, which says (excerpt):

※   The following acts are examples of perfidy:

■  The feigning of civilian, non-combatant status; and
■  The feigning of protected status by the use of signs, emblems or uniforms of the United Nations or of neutral or other States not Parties to the conflict.​
Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## Shusha

Oh look, here's a bunch of Gazan farmers bringing melons and tomatoes to plant under the fence:


















And this link has video footage of a farmer tending his crops under the fence, at night, with an assault rifle, grenades and a suicide bomb vest.  



And here are some of their farming tools:
























The leader of Hamas, in public speeches, is, of course, encouraging the farmers to grow lots of melons and tomatoes:


----------



## Toddsterpatriot

Humanity said:


> Toddsterpatriot said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Humanity said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Toddsterpatriot said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Humanity said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Toddsterpatriot said:
> 
> 
> 
> The topic was targeting civilians. Did you miss it? Here>>>>>>>* using tank artillery against civilians
> *
> Do you see it now?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The topic was the killing of a Palestinian BEFORE the protests by use of tank artillery...
> 
> Now, perhaps keep up or piss off!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No, the topic was how can people who target civilians not get condemned.
> 
> I agree, we should condemn the Palestinians who do that.
> 
> Maybe your Palestinian terrorists...err...farmers should farm further away from the border, eh?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> As I said maybe you should try and keep up!
> 
> Either join in the conversation or not... Oh, maybe YOU have some proof of the farmer who was blow to shit by tank artillery was actually planting a bomb? No one else has been able to come up with that one!
> 
> Ah, wait, maybe we should just accept the word of the zionists, is that the answer?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You should post the video of him peacefully farming well away from the fence before the shell killed him.
> 
> I'll wait.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> It's not my responsibility to post anything...
> 
> It's yours.
> 
> Post a video of the farmer, the day before the march started, planting a bomb under the fence. Post a video of other means being used before the "last resort".
> 
> Go on, at least post something that supports yours and others claims that he was planting a bomb.
Click to expand...


*It's not my responsibility to post anything...
*
Exactly. You can't show a single unarmed, innocent "protester" who was killed.


----------



## Shusha

Humanity said:


> Post a video of the farmer, the day before the march started, planting a bomb under the fence. Post a video of other means being used before the "last resort".



Ah.  So that is your standard for international law concerning the use of lethal force?  That no use of lethal force may be used without video proof of surveillance with evidence of lethal weapons and of the escalating deterrents?  And that standard for each individual death doesn't seem...well, just the smallest bit ridiculous to you?


----------



## Shusha

_But the obvious reality is that Israel has nothing to gain from clashes along the border; indeed, given the lopsided international opprobrium it must bear, Israel has every reason to avoid bloodshed. It is Hamas that seeks to inflame tensions, encouraging protesters to test the border, despite Israel’s warnings that it will defend its territory against invasion. Hamas surely doesn’t doubt Israel’s resolve. It’s counting on it. Leaders are sending soldiers to whip up the crowd and push them all, civilians included, toward a heightened confrontation. And if Israeli troops shoot to defend their territory, Hamas and its anti-Israel apologists get to decry the atrocity of it.

Israel must act responsibly and proportionally. There is a special moral responsibility that goes along with greater military power. Israel routinely acts with far greater restraint than most other countries, even in the West, would under similar circumstances. We trust it will continue to do so in the face of this latest blatant provocation. It isn’t just, but these are the facts on the ground.

_
Its Hamas that wants to see Palestinians killed, not Israel


----------



## Shusha

Gazans are now claiming there is a dire shortage of tires in Gaza. And it's Israel's fault. 

You can't make this stuff up.


----------



## rylah

Shusha said:


> Gazans are now claiming there is a dire shortage of tires in Gaza. And it's Israel's fault.
> 
> You can't make this stuff up.










  A post that is shared now on Arab media:

Gaza resident:_ "to the thieves who stole my tires return them until Friday,_
_ if not I'll burn You and Your march"_


----------



## RWNJ

teddyearp said:


> Tijn Von Ingersleben said:
> 
> 
> 
> One of the two sides should hurry up and kill the other...I am tired of my tax dollars going toward this shit show.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, we know. In a way I agree about the funds, but how heartless of you to wish for death.
Click to expand...

The only way to stop rag heads is to kill them. Anyone with a functioning brain understands this.


----------



## rylah

RWNJ said:


> teddyearp said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tijn Von Ingersleben said:
> 
> 
> 
> One of the two sides should hurry up and kill the other...I am tired of my tax dollars going toward this shit show.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, we know. In a way I agree about the funds, but how heartless of you to wish for death.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The only way to stop rag heads is to kill them. Anyone with a functioning brain understands this.
Click to expand...


Disagree with the conclusion,sometimes idiots merely need directions, just remind them they've got the wrong address - immediately and in simple language, *and walk away.
*
If I'm not mistaken, San Tzu wrote about leaving Your enemy a pathway for retreat.


EDIT: *"When you surround the enemy
Always allow them an escape route.
They must see that there is
An alternative to death."*  - San Tzu


----------



## P F Tinmore

Shusha said:


> _But the obvious reality is that Israel has nothing to gain from clashes along the border; indeed, given the lopsided international opprobrium it must bear, Israel has every reason to avoid bloodshed. It is Hamas that seeks to inflame tensions, encouraging protesters to test the border, despite Israel’s warnings that it will defend its territory against invasion. Hamas surely doesn’t doubt Israel’s resolve. It’s counting on it. Leaders are sending soldiers to whip up the crowd and push them all, civilians included, toward a heightened confrontation. And if Israeli troops shoot to defend their territory, Hamas and its anti-Israel apologists get to decry the atrocity of it.
> 
> Israel must act responsibly and proportionally. There is a special moral responsibility that goes along with greater military power. Israel routinely acts with far greater restraint than most other countries, even in the West, would under similar circumstances. We trust it will continue to do so in the face of this latest blatant provocation. It isn’t just, but these are the facts on the ground.
> 
> _
> Its Hamas that wants to see Palestinians killed, not Israel


Yet it is Israel that is doing all of the shooting.


----------



## RetiredGySgt

P F Tinmore said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> _But the obvious reality is that Israel has nothing to gain from clashes along the border; indeed, given the lopsided international opprobrium it must bear, Israel has every reason to avoid bloodshed. It is Hamas that seeks to inflame tensions, encouraging protesters to test the border, despite Israel’s warnings that it will defend its territory against invasion. Hamas surely doesn’t doubt Israel’s resolve. It’s counting on it. Leaders are sending soldiers to whip up the crowd and push them all, civilians included, toward a heightened confrontation. And if Israeli troops shoot to defend their territory, Hamas and its anti-Israel apologists get to decry the atrocity of it.
> 
> Israel must act responsibly and proportionally. There is a special moral responsibility that goes along with greater military power. Israel routinely acts with far greater restraint than most other countries, even in the West, would under similar circumstances. We trust it will continue to do so in the face of this latest blatant provocation. It isn’t just, but these are the facts on the ground.
> 
> _
> Its Hamas that wants to see Palestinians killed, not Israel
> 
> 
> 
> Yet it is Israel that is doing all of the shooting.
Click to expand...

No it is NOT, the pals are firing rocks and gasoline bombs you lying asshole.


----------



## Shusha

P F Tinmore said:


> Yet it is Israel that is doing all of the shooting.



I know, I know.  Palestinians aren't doing anything but planting melons and tomatoes.  Can't wait to see the crop in the fall.


----------



## P F Tinmore

RetiredGySgt said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> _But the obvious reality is that Israel has nothing to gain from clashes along the border; indeed, given the lopsided international opprobrium it must bear, Israel has every reason to avoid bloodshed. It is Hamas that seeks to inflame tensions, encouraging protesters to test the border, despite Israel’s warnings that it will defend its territory against invasion. Hamas surely doesn’t doubt Israel’s resolve. It’s counting on it. Leaders are sending soldiers to whip up the crowd and push them all, civilians included, toward a heightened confrontation. And if Israeli troops shoot to defend their territory, Hamas and its anti-Israel apologists get to decry the atrocity of it.
> 
> Israel must act responsibly and proportionally. There is a special moral responsibility that goes along with greater military power. Israel routinely acts with far greater restraint than most other countries, even in the West, would under similar circumstances. We trust it will continue to do so in the face of this latest blatant provocation. It isn’t just, but these are the facts on the ground.
> 
> _
> Its Hamas that wants to see Palestinians killed, not Israel
> 
> 
> 
> Yet it is Israel that is doing all of the shooting.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> No it is NOT, the pals are firing rocks and gasoline bombs you lying asshole.
Click to expand...

Those protestors pose no threat to anyone. Israel is just looking for excuses to justify shooting fish in a barrel.


----------



## Hollie

P F Tinmore said:


> RetiredGySgt said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> _But the obvious reality is that Israel has nothing to gain from clashes along the border; indeed, given the lopsided international opprobrium it must bear, Israel has every reason to avoid bloodshed. It is Hamas that seeks to inflame tensions, encouraging protesters to test the border, despite Israel’s warnings that it will defend its territory against invasion. Hamas surely doesn’t doubt Israel’s resolve. It’s counting on it. Leaders are sending soldiers to whip up the crowd and push them all, civilians included, toward a heightened confrontation. And if Israeli troops shoot to defend their territory, Hamas and its anti-Israel apologists get to decry the atrocity of it.
> 
> Israel must act responsibly and proportionally. There is a special moral responsibility that goes along with greater military power. Israel routinely acts with far greater restraint than most other countries, even in the West, would under similar circumstances. We trust it will continue to do so in the face of this latest blatant provocation. It isn’t just, but these are the facts on the ground.
> 
> _
> Its Hamas that wants to see Palestinians killed, not Israel
> 
> 
> 
> Yet it is Israel that is doing all of the shooting.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> No it is NOT, the pals are firing rocks and gasoline bombs you lying asshole.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Those protestors pose no threat to anyone. Israel is just looking for excuses to justify shooting fish in a barrel.
Click to expand...


Islamist talking points.


----------



## P F Tinmore

Hollie said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> RetiredGySgt said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> _But the obvious reality is that Israel has nothing to gain from clashes along the border; indeed, given the lopsided international opprobrium it must bear, Israel has every reason to avoid bloodshed. It is Hamas that seeks to inflame tensions, encouraging protesters to test the border, despite Israel’s warnings that it will defend its territory against invasion. Hamas surely doesn’t doubt Israel’s resolve. It’s counting on it. Leaders are sending soldiers to whip up the crowd and push them all, civilians included, toward a heightened confrontation. And if Israeli troops shoot to defend their territory, Hamas and its anti-Israel apologists get to decry the atrocity of it.
> 
> Israel must act responsibly and proportionally. There is a special moral responsibility that goes along with greater military power. Israel routinely acts with far greater restraint than most other countries, even in the West, would under similar circumstances. We trust it will continue to do so in the face of this latest blatant provocation. It isn’t just, but these are the facts on the ground.
> 
> _
> Its Hamas that wants to see Palestinians killed, not Israel
> 
> 
> 
> Yet it is Israel that is doing all of the shooting.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> No it is NOT, the pals are firing rocks and gasoline bombs you lying asshole.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Those protestors pose no threat to anyone. Israel is just looking for excuses to justify shooting fish in a barrel.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Islamist talking points.
Click to expand...

How many IDF soldiers have been injured?


----------



## Hollie

P F Tinmore said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> RetiredGySgt said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> _But the obvious reality is that Israel has nothing to gain from clashes along the border; indeed, given the lopsided international opprobrium it must bear, Israel has every reason to avoid bloodshed. It is Hamas that seeks to inflame tensions, encouraging protesters to test the border, despite Israel’s warnings that it will defend its territory against invasion. Hamas surely doesn’t doubt Israel’s resolve. It’s counting on it. Leaders are sending soldiers to whip up the crowd and push them all, civilians included, toward a heightened confrontation. And if Israeli troops shoot to defend their territory, Hamas and its anti-Israel apologists get to decry the atrocity of it.
> 
> Israel must act responsibly and proportionally. There is a special moral responsibility that goes along with greater military power. Israel routinely acts with far greater restraint than most other countries, even in the West, would under similar circumstances. We trust it will continue to do so in the face of this latest blatant provocation. It isn’t just, but these are the facts on the ground.
> 
> _
> Its Hamas that wants to see Palestinians killed, not Israel
> 
> 
> 
> Yet it is Israel that is doing all of the shooting.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> No it is NOT, the pals are firing rocks and gasoline bombs you lying asshole.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Those protestors pose no threat to anyone. Israel is just looking for excuses to justify shooting fish in a barrel.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Islamist talking points.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> How many IDF soldiers have been injured?
Click to expand...


How many? Something else you’re clueless about. 

Is Israel paying its soldiers a fixed fee incentive to be killed or maimed or is that what your Arab-Moslem terrorist heroes are offering?


----------



## P F Tinmore

Hollie said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> RetiredGySgt said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yet it is Israel that is doing all of the shooting.
> 
> 
> 
> No it is NOT, the pals are firing rocks and gasoline bombs you lying asshole.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Those protestors pose no threat to anyone. Israel is just looking for excuses to justify shooting fish in a barrel.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Islamist talking points.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> How many IDF soldiers have been injured?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> How many? Something else you’re clueless about.
> 
> Is Israel paying its soldiers a fixed fee incentive to be killed or maimed or is that what your Arab-Moslem terrorist heroes are offering?
Click to expand...

Nice deflection.


----------



## RetiredGySgt

P F Tinmore said:


> RetiredGySgt said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> _But the obvious reality is that Israel has nothing to gain from clashes along the border; indeed, given the lopsided international opprobrium it must bear, Israel has every reason to avoid bloodshed. It is Hamas that seeks to inflame tensions, encouraging protesters to test the border, despite Israel’s warnings that it will defend its territory against invasion. Hamas surely doesn’t doubt Israel’s resolve. It’s counting on it. Leaders are sending soldiers to whip up the crowd and push them all, civilians included, toward a heightened confrontation. And if Israeli troops shoot to defend their territory, Hamas and its anti-Israel apologists get to decry the atrocity of it.
> 
> Israel must act responsibly and proportionally. There is a special moral responsibility that goes along with greater military power. Israel routinely acts with far greater restraint than most other countries, even in the West, would under similar circumstances. We trust it will continue to do so in the face of this latest blatant provocation. It isn’t just, but these are the facts on the ground.
> 
> _
> Its Hamas that wants to see Palestinians killed, not Israel
> 
> 
> 
> Yet it is Israel that is doing all of the shooting.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> No it is NOT, the pals are firing rocks and gasoline bombs you lying asshole.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Those protestors pose no threat to anyone. Israel is just looking for excuses to justify shooting fish in a barrel.
Click to expand...

Wrong rocks can kill when launched from hands much less designed slings to maximize the damage they are weapons of war since the early days of humanity. Gasoline bombs are even worse your peaceful protestors are anything BUT peaceful.


----------



## RetiredGySgt

P F Tinmore said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> RetiredGySgt said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> _But the obvious reality is that Israel has nothing to gain from clashes along the border; indeed, given the lopsided international opprobrium it must bear, Israel has every reason to avoid bloodshed. It is Hamas that seeks to inflame tensions, encouraging protesters to test the border, despite Israel’s warnings that it will defend its territory against invasion. Hamas surely doesn’t doubt Israel’s resolve. It’s counting on it. Leaders are sending soldiers to whip up the crowd and push them all, civilians included, toward a heightened confrontation. And if Israeli troops shoot to defend their territory, Hamas and its anti-Israel apologists get to decry the atrocity of it.
> 
> Israel must act responsibly and proportionally. There is a special moral responsibility that goes along with greater military power. Israel routinely acts with far greater restraint than most other countries, even in the West, would under similar circumstances. We trust it will continue to do so in the face of this latest blatant provocation. It isn’t just, but these are the facts on the ground.
> 
> _
> Its Hamas that wants to see Palestinians killed, not Israel
> 
> 
> 
> Yet it is Israel that is doing all of the shooting.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> No it is NOT, the pals are firing rocks and gasoline bombs you lying asshole.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Those protestors pose no threat to anyone. Israel is just looking for excuses to justify shooting fish in a barrel.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Islamist talking points.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> How many IDF soldiers have been injured?
Click to expand...

So let me get this right? Your point of reference is that attacks don't count unless they harm someone? RETARD.


----------



## Hollie

P F Tinmore said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> RetiredGySgt said:
> 
> 
> 
> No it is NOT, the pals are firing rocks and gasoline bombs you lying asshole.
> 
> 
> 
> Those protestors pose no threat to anyone. Israel is just looking for excuses to justify shooting fish in a barrel.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Islamist talking points.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> How many IDF soldiers have been injured?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> How many? Something else you’re clueless about.
> 
> Is Israel paying its soldiers a fixed fee incentive to be killed or maimed or is that what your Arab-Moslem terrorist heroes are offering?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Nice deflection.
Click to expand...


That’s the same old slogan you use to sidestep and retreat because you can’t actually compose a coherent sentence. 

Obviously, you can’t deny that Hamas has a sliding scale of payments for injuries and death it pays to Arabs-Moslems as an incentive to be used as human shields. 

That you applaud such depravity, well, what does that say about you?


----------



## Hollie

P F Tinmore said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> RetiredGySgt said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> _But the obvious reality is that Israel has nothing to gain from clashes along the border; indeed, given the lopsided international opprobrium it must bear, Israel has every reason to avoid bloodshed. It is Hamas that seeks to inflame tensions, encouraging protesters to test the border, despite Israel’s warnings that it will defend its territory against invasion. Hamas surely doesn’t doubt Israel’s resolve. It’s counting on it. Leaders are sending soldiers to whip up the crowd and push them all, civilians included, toward a heightened confrontation. And if Israeli troops shoot to defend their territory, Hamas and its anti-Israel apologists get to decry the atrocity of it.
> 
> Israel must act responsibly and proportionally. There is a special moral responsibility that goes along with greater military power. Israel routinely acts with far greater restraint than most other countries, even in the West, would under similar circumstances. We trust it will continue to do so in the face of this latest blatant provocation. It isn’t just, but these are the facts on the ground.
> 
> _
> Its Hamas that wants to see Palestinians killed, not Israel
> 
> 
> 
> Yet it is Israel that is doing all of the shooting.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> No it is NOT, the pals are firing rocks and gasoline bombs you lying asshole.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Those protestors pose no threat to anyone. Israel is just looking for excuses to justify shooting fish in a barrel.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Islamist talking points.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> How many IDF soldiers have been injured?
Click to expand...


Perhaps, none?

Of course, that speaks to a disciplined armed force with better tactics, better training, better planning, better everything. 

How does it feel to be flailing your Pom Poms for an incompetent, failed Islamic terrorist franchise that uses women and children as human shields. What a shame that you hold Islamic terrorist cowards and retrogrades as heroes.


----------



## P F Tinmore




----------



## RetiredGySgt

P F Tinmore said:


>


Pals attack Israelis and get shot for it, end of story, simply solution, stop attacking Israelis , stop planting bombs, stop inciting riots in an effort to harm Israelis. EVERY dead pal in the current cycle was a terrorist or military member engaged in attacking Israelis that's why they got shot.


----------



## P F Tinmore

*Phyllis Bennis discusses the deadly day of clashes on the Gaza-Israel border*

**


----------



## Hollie

So, does Hamas pay out Monopoly money for Pallywood Production fake injuries?


----------



## rylah

P F Tinmore said:


> *Phyllis Bennis discusses the deadly day of clashes on the Gaza-Israel border*
> 
> **



She's just repeating what the media says without checking the facts.
In the meantime 80% of those killed were proven to be active militants.

Then again this lie about a "farmer" who plowed land under a military fence at night. 
Not to mention the 2 groups of Gazans who managed to cross the fence days prior to the march, and were caught with knifes and grenades.

This is what's been going on in the "peaceful" planning of the march:







"20 thousand bottles are available and more than 5 thousand liters of petrol next Friday and this in less than a day"  
amir.nafsy on Twitter


----------



## Hollie

The _*Tire Fire*_ protest. 

Seems appropriate. Arabs-Moslems causing their own deaths while behaving like, well, Arab-Moslem retrogrades.


----------



## P F Tinmore

*Melbourne Protest against Israel's massacre in Gaza - Free Palestine*

**


----------



## Hollie




----------



## P F Tinmore

*Palestinians explain why they are risking their lives by joining Gaza protests*

**


----------



## Hollie

P F Tinmore said:


> *Melbourne Protest against Israel's massacre in Gaza - Free Palestine*



Don't think of it as a "massacre". Think of it as payment for services.


Hamas pays families of Gazans killed in border clashes with Israel

Relatives of fatalities receive $3,000, injured Palestinians paid $200-$500 in compensation.


----------



## Hollie




----------



## ILOVEISRAEL

P F Tinmore said:


> *Phyllis Bennis discusses the deadly day of clashes on the Gaza-Israel border*
> 
> **


  What the Palestinian “ forgot” to mention is that Hamas took over, refused to end the Violence, recognize Israel along with the smuggling of weapons.


----------



## Hollie

Just another day in the Islamic terrorist Death Cult.


----------



## Hollie

P F Tinmore said:


> *Palestinians explain why they are risking their lives by joining Gaza protests*



Cash Payments.


----------



## P F Tinmore

*BREAKING NEWS: Palestinian Journalist Fatally Shot While Covering Gaza Protest*

**


----------



## rylah

P F Tinmore said:


> *Palestinians explain why they are risking their lives by joining Gaza protests*
> 
> **



Clearly the first participant said he came to fight the Jews, wants them gone from the land.
Here You've got the symptom, and the reason to why  Arabs started the war the still whine about.


Poor Arabs...


----------



## Hollie

P F Tinmore said:


> *BREAKING NEWS: Palestinian Journalist Fatally Shot While Covering Gaza Protest*



There's no cash premium paid by Hamas for someone calling himself a "journalist".


----------



## Shusha

P F Tinmore said:


> How many IDF soldiers have been injured?



Five, to my knowledge. The injuries tend to happen when Arabs adopt a new tactic and catch the IDF unawares. 

For the most part Israel is able prevent injuries in even the most deadly situations using technology, intelligence, and caution. 

Surely you are not suggesting that a lack of injuries is proof that grenades don't exist, are you?


----------



## P F Tinmore

*Large groups of Palestinian protesters continue to demonstrate near the Gaza border.*


----------



## P F Tinmore

Shusha said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> How many IDF soldiers have been injured?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Five, to my knowledge. The injuries tend to happen when Arabs adopt a new tactic and catch the IDF unawares.
> 
> For the most part Israel is able prevent injuries in even the most deadly situations using technology, intelligence, and caution.
> 
> Surely you are not suggesting that a lack of injuries is proof that grenades don't exist, are you?
Click to expand...

Link?


----------



## Hollie

P F Tinmore said:


> *Large groups of Palestinian protesters continue to demonstrate near the Gaza border.*



Actually, the groups of lemmings aren't all that large.

Hamas wishes all the dead and injured a grateful "thanks for being our stooges" and has advised the press "Mo' Money, Mo' Money, Mo' Money"


----------



## Shusha

P F Tinmore said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> How many IDF soldiers have been injured?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Five, to my knowledge. The injuries tend to happen when Arabs adopt a new tactic and catch the IDF unawares.
> 
> For the most part Israel is able prevent injuries in even the most deadly situations using technology, intelligence, and caution.
> 
> Surely you are not suggesting that a lack of injuries is proof that grenades don't exist, are you?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Link?
Click to expand...


Four with the first IED incident at the fence (there have been several since and several attempts but no further injuries) And I believe was was injured when shot at at the beginning of the protest. 

Are you denying that these things are happening?


----------



## P F Tinmore

*Gaza protests: More unarmed Palestinians killed and wounded*

**


----------



## Hollie

P F Tinmore said:


> *Gaza protests: More unarmed Palestinians killed and wounded*



Perhaps Hamas can issue debit cards? Those who will benefit from the injuries and deaths of Arab-Moslems who are killed or injured can cash out the value?


----------



## P F Tinmore




----------



## Hollie

*Death toll rises to 8 as Palestinians rally along Gaza-Israel border*

By Noga Tarnopolsky Rushdi Abu Alouf
Apr 06, 2018 | 12:35 PM
| Jabalya, Gaza Strip
 






A Palestinian demonstrator during a protest April 6 on the Gaza-Israel border, east of Gaza City. (Mohammed Abed / AFP/Getty Images)



"_Thick, acrid black smoke enveloped the Gaza Strip on Friday_....."



Certainly sounds like something to celebrate.


----------



## Hollie

"Fair coverage" calling a few dead Arabs-Moslems a "massacre"?

Only in the warped _Tinmore Alternate Reality_


----------



## rylah

Footage: Attempts by terrorists to carry out a shooting attack against soldiers in the northern Gaza Strip were thwarted by the IDF.

Video inside


----------



## Hollie

'There would be no killings if Hamas told protesters to stay away from border'– Israeli PM spokesman

'There would be no killings if Hamas told protesters to stay away from border'– Israeli PM spokesman

Speaking to RT, David Keyes, Benjamin Netanyahu's foreign media spokesperson, said the 'Great Return' protests staged by Palestinians along the security border fence separating the enclave from the Israeli-held territory are the _"opposite of peaceful protests."_

_"The aim of this event is to swarm into Israel and overwhelm it, and it's a part of a long track record by Hamas of waging war against Israel, launching tens of thousands of missiles, conducting suicide bombings against cafes, against civilians and in buses,"_ Keys charged. He went on to argue that Israel essentially bears no responsibility for the deaths of 17 people and the injuries of hundreds more during the Friday clashes, as it only fought back against Hamas, which has been de facto in control of the Gaza Strip.

Hamas is, consequently, the one with the ability to rein in the violence, by demanding that its supporters stay clear of the border fence, Keys argued




No Hamas spokesbeards were near the border area for comment as they were safely ensconced in their luxury condos, far from the conflict, leaving the slovenly minions to inhale toxic smoke and fumes.


----------



## RetiredGySgt

P F Tinmore said:


> *Gaza protests: More unarmed Palestinians killed and wounded*
> 
> **


Once again you lying piece of HUMAN GARBAGE they are not unarmed.


----------



## Mindful

Another day, another blood libel against Israel




Latest Blood Libel: Israel Used White Phosphorus or Chemical Weapons on Rioters
In the wake of Friday’s violent “March of Return” riots, some palestinians and their supporters have claimed Israel was using white phosphorus or other…
ISRAELLYCOOL.COM


----------



## Mindful

More Pal propaganda:

Ridiculous Palestinian Propaganda Video of the Day


----------



## P F Tinmore

Hollie said:


> 'There would be no killings if Hamas told protesters to stay away from border'– Israeli PM spokesman
> 
> 'There would be no killings if Hamas told protesters to stay away from border'– Israeli PM spokesman
> 
> Speaking to RT, David Keyes, Benjamin Netanyahu's foreign media spokesperson, said the 'Great Return' protests staged by Palestinians along the security border fence separating the enclave from the Israeli-held territory are the _"opposite of peaceful protests."_
> 
> _"The aim of this event is to swarm into Israel and overwhelm it, and it's a part of a long track record by Hamas of waging war against Israel, launching tens of thousands of missiles, conducting suicide bombings against cafes, against civilians and in buses,"_ Keys charged. He went on to argue that Israel essentially bears no responsibility for the deaths of 17 people and the injuries of hundreds more during the Friday clashes, as it only fought back against Hamas, which has been de facto in control of the Gaza Strip.
> 
> Hamas is, consequently, the one with the ability to rein in the violence, by demanding that its supporters stay clear of the border fence, Keys argued
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No Hamas spokesbeards were near the border area for comment as they were safely ensconced in their luxury condos, far from the conflict, leaving the slovenly minions to inhale toxic smoke and fumes.





Hollie said:


> 'There would be no killings if Hamas told protesters to stay away from border'– Israeli PM spokesman


That is one of the things they are protesting, dumbfuck.


----------



## Hollie

P F Tinmore said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 'There would be no killings if Hamas told protesters to stay away from border'– Israeli PM spokesman
> 
> 'There would be no killings if Hamas told protesters to stay away from border'– Israeli PM spokesman
> 
> Speaking to RT, David Keyes, Benjamin Netanyahu's foreign media spokesperson, said the 'Great Return' protests staged by Palestinians along the security border fence separating the enclave from the Israeli-held territory are the _"opposite of peaceful protests."_
> 
> _"The aim of this event is to swarm into Israel and overwhelm it, and it's a part of a long track record by Hamas of waging war against Israel, launching tens of thousands of missiles, conducting suicide bombings against cafes, against civilians and in buses,"_ Keys charged. He went on to argue that Israel essentially bears no responsibility for the deaths of 17 people and the injuries of hundreds more during the Friday clashes, as it only fought back against Hamas, which has been de facto in control of the Gaza Strip.
> 
> Hamas is, consequently, the one with the ability to rein in the violence, by demanding that its supporters stay clear of the border fence, Keys argued
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No Hamas spokesbeards were near the border area for comment as they were safely ensconced in their luxury condos, far from the conflict, leaving the slovenly minions to inhale toxic smoke and fumes.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 'There would be no killings if Hamas told protesters to stay away from border'– Israeli PM spokesman
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> That is one of the things they are protesting, dumbfuck.
Click to expand...


Such an angry muhammedan. 

OK, so you are suggesting that the protestors are protesting the Israelis  telling them to stay away from the border?


----------



## P F Tinmore

Hollie said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 'There would be no killings if Hamas told protesters to stay away from border'– Israeli PM spokesman
> 
> 'There would be no killings if Hamas told protesters to stay away from border'– Israeli PM spokesman
> 
> Speaking to RT, David Keyes, Benjamin Netanyahu's foreign media spokesperson, said the 'Great Return' protests staged by Palestinians along the security border fence separating the enclave from the Israeli-held territory are the _"opposite of peaceful protests."_
> 
> _"The aim of this event is to swarm into Israel and overwhelm it, and it's a part of a long track record by Hamas of waging war against Israel, launching tens of thousands of missiles, conducting suicide bombings against cafes, against civilians and in buses,"_ Keys charged. He went on to argue that Israel essentially bears no responsibility for the deaths of 17 people and the injuries of hundreds more during the Friday clashes, as it only fought back against Hamas, which has been de facto in control of the Gaza Strip.
> 
> Hamas is, consequently, the one with the ability to rein in the violence, by demanding that its supporters stay clear of the border fence, Keys argued
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No Hamas spokesbeards were near the border area for comment as they were safely ensconced in their luxury condos, far from the conflict, leaving the slovenly minions to inhale toxic smoke and fumes.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 'There would be no killings if Hamas told protesters to stay away from border'– Israeli PM spokesman
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> That is one of the things they are protesting, dumbfuck.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Such an angry muhammedan.
> 
> OK, so you are suggesting that the protestors are protesting the Israelis  telling them to stay away from the border?
Click to expand...

You need to keep up.


----------



## Hollie

P F Tinmore said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 'There would be no killings if Hamas told protesters to stay away from border'– Israeli PM spokesman
> 
> 'There would be no killings if Hamas told protesters to stay away from border'– Israeli PM spokesman
> 
> Speaking to RT, David Keyes, Benjamin Netanyahu's foreign media spokesperson, said the 'Great Return' protests staged by Palestinians along the security border fence separating the enclave from the Israeli-held territory are the _"opposite of peaceful protests."_
> 
> _"The aim of this event is to swarm into Israel and overwhelm it, and it's a part of a long track record by Hamas of waging war against Israel, launching tens of thousands of missiles, conducting suicide bombings against cafes, against civilians and in buses,"_ Keys charged. He went on to argue that Israel essentially bears no responsibility for the deaths of 17 people and the injuries of hundreds more during the Friday clashes, as it only fought back against Hamas, which has been de facto in control of the Gaza Strip.
> 
> Hamas is, consequently, the one with the ability to rein in the violence, by demanding that its supporters stay clear of the border fence, Keys argued
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No Hamas spokesbeards were near the border area for comment as they were safely ensconced in their luxury condos, far from the conflict, leaving the slovenly minions to inhale toxic smoke and fumes.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 'There would be no killings if Hamas told protesters to stay away from border'– Israeli PM spokesman
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> That is one of the things they are protesting, dumbfuck.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Such an angry muhammedan.
> 
> OK, so you are suggesting that the protestors are protesting the Israelis  telling them to stay away from the border?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You need to keep up.
Click to expand...


You make a mistake by attempting to respond without a cut and paste YouTube video.


----------



## RoccoR

RE:  Israeli forces shoot unarmed protesters from across Gaza security fence, killing at least 15
※→  P F Tinmore, et al,

I actually hope that the Hostile Arab Palestinians (HoAP) continue to demonstrate that they are feigning the victimization.



P F Tinmore said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> ''There would be no killings if Hamas told protesters to stay away from border'– Israeli PM spokesman
> 
> 
> 
> That is one of the things they are protesting, dumbfuck.
Click to expand...

*(COMMENT)*

The greater the evidence mounts that the HoAP are purposely inciting violence, the more it will become obvious (internationally) how how untruthfully the HoAP have been now and in the past. 

✪⇒  Customary and International Humanitarian Law Rule # 65 "
Additional Protocol I defines perfidy as “acts inviting the confidence of an adversary to lead him to believe that he is entitled to, or obliged to accord, protection under the rules of international law applicable in armed conflict, with intent to betray that confidence”.
Additional Protocol I --- to the Geneva Conventions, 8 June 1977.
*Prohibition of Perfidy*
 *Article 37 [ Link ]* 
 
1. It is prohibited to kill, injure or capture an adversary by resort to perfidy. Acts inviting the confidence of an adversary to lead him to believe that he is entitled to, or is obliged to accord, protection under the rules of international law applicable in armed conflict, with intent to betray that confidence, shall constitute perfidy. The following acts are examples of perfidy:

 (a) the feigning of an intent to negotiate under a flag of truce or of a surrender;

*(b) the feigning of an incapacitation by wounds or sickness;*

* (c) the feigning of civilian, non-combatant status; and*

(d) the feigning of protected status by the use of signs, emblems or uniforms of the United Nations or of neutral or other States not Parties to the conflict.​
Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## P F Tinmore




----------



## Hollie

Propaganda videos from a notorious internet tabloid / conspiracy theory promoting website makes you appear quite desperate.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot

P F Tinmore said:


>



So much BS is such a short video.
You could fertilize all of Gaza with that.


----------



## Roudy

Shusha said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yet it is Israel that is doing all of the shooting.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I know, I know.  Palestinians aren't doing anything but planting melons and tomatoes.  Can't wait to see the crop in the fall.
Click to expand...

All Palestinians have halos on top of their heads, and most don't need a boat to fish, they actually walk on water.


----------



## Indeependent

If the Muslims moved to Israel and the Jews moved to Gaza, the Jews would create a paradise within 5 years and the Muslims would turn Israel into a shithole in 2 years.


----------



## Roudy

Indeependent said:


> If the Muslims moved to Israel and the Jews moved to Gaza, the Jews would create a paradise within 5 years and the Muslims would turn Israel into a shithole in 2 years.


And then the "Palestinians" would be attacking Gaza once again.


----------



## Billo_Really

Hollie said:


> Let’s agree that you will be among the first to fly “Islamic Terrorist Airways”. Hamas and Islamic gee-had will be responsible for airport security.
> 
> Have a nice flight.


What Israel is doing is disgusting.


----------



## Shusha

Billo_Really said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> Let’s agree that you will be among the first to fly “Islamic Terrorist Airways”. Hamas and Islamic gee-had will be responsible for airport security.
> 
> Have a nice flight.
> 
> 
> 
> What Israel is doing is disgusting.
Click to expand...


Protecting your border from a riot is disgusting?


----------



## RoccoR

RE:  Israeli forces shoot unarmed protesters from across Gaza security fence, killing at least 15
※→  Billo_Really,  et al,

Yes, you say that.  But you actually don't apply common sense.

SO,,,,  Without jumping into a tirade and immediately start an unsubstantiated denunciation of the Israeli position to defend their sovereign border → WHY don't you show us what law the Israelis have violated.

Of course, without the abusive language and tone...    



Billo_Really said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> Let’s agree that you will be among the first to fly “Islamic Terrorist Airways”. Hamas and Islamic gee-had will be responsible for airport security.
> 
> Have a nice flight.
> 
> 
> 
> What Israel is doing is disgusting.
Click to expand...

*(COMMENT)*

Pick a point and defend it by explaining in Customary and International Humanitarian Law what the Israelis did that was so offensive and illegal.

If you think the Border in which the Israelis defend is illegal; then say so and cite the authority for that position.

If you think the Israelis cannot legally use force to defend their border, then say so, and cite the authority that supports that position.

BUT, no one here learns anything because you never defend your position in a rationale manner.

Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## P F Tinmore

RoccoR said:


> RE:  Israeli forces shoot unarmed protesters from across Gaza security fence, killing at least 15
> ※→  Billo_Really,  et al,
> 
> Yes, you say that.  But you actually don't apply common sense.
> 
> SO,,,,  Without jumping into a tirade and immediately start an unsubstantiated denunciation of the Israeli position to defend their sovereign border → WHY don't you show us what law the Israelis have violated.
> 
> Of course, without the abusive language and tone...
> 
> 
> 
> Billo_Really said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> Let’s agree that you will be among the first to fly “Islamic Terrorist Airways”. Hamas and Islamic gee-had will be responsible for airport security.
> 
> Have a nice flight.
> 
> 
> 
> What Israel is doing is disgusting.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> *(COMMENT)*
> 
> Pick a point and defend it by explaining in Customary and International Humanitarian Law what the Israelis did that was so offensive and illegal.
> 
> If you think the Border in which the Israelis defend is illegal; then say so and cite the authority for that position.
> 
> If you think the Israelis cannot legally use force to defend their border, then say so, and cite the authority that supports that position.
> 
> BUT, no one here learns anything because you never defend your position in a rationale manner.
> 
> Most Respectfully,
> R
Click to expand...




RoccoR said:


> If you think the Border in which the Israelis defend is illegal; then say so and cite the authority for that position.


The line around Gaza is the 1949 armistice line that was specifically not to be a political or territorial boundary. It ran through Palestine without demarcating any division of territory.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot

P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> 
> RE:  Israeli forces shoot unarmed protesters from across Gaza security fence, killing at least 15
> ※→  Billo_Really,  et al,
> 
> Yes, you say that.  But you actually don't apply common sense.
> 
> SO,,,,  Without jumping into a tirade and immediately start an unsubstantiated denunciation of the Israeli position to defend their sovereign border → WHY don't you show us what law the Israelis have violated.
> 
> Of course, without the abusive language and tone...
> 
> 
> 
> Billo_Really said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> Let’s agree that you will be among the first to fly “Islamic Terrorist Airways”. Hamas and Islamic gee-had will be responsible for airport security.
> 
> Have a nice flight.
> 
> 
> 
> What Israel is doing is disgusting.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> *(COMMENT)*
> 
> Pick a point and defend it by explaining in Customary and International Humanitarian Law what the Israelis did that was so offensive and illegal.
> 
> If you think the Border in which the Israelis defend is illegal; then say so and cite the authority for that position.
> 
> If you think the Israelis cannot legally use force to defend their border, then say so, and cite the authority that supports that position.
> 
> BUT, no one here learns anything because you never defend your position in a rationale manner.
> 
> Most Respectfully,
> R
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> 
> If you think the Border in which the Israelis defend is illegal; then say so and cite the authority for that position.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The line around Gaza is the 1949 armistice line that was specifically not to be a political or territorial boundary. It ran through Palestine without demarcating any division of territory.
Click to expand...


And yet, never been a nation of Palestine........


----------



## RoccoR

))RE:  Israeli forces shoot unarmed protesters from across Gaza security fence, killing at least 15
※→  P F Tinmore, Billo_Really,  et al,

The 1949 Armistice Line around the Gaza Strip was established by the Armistice Agreement between the Egyptian Military Command and the Israeli Defense Force _(See:  Article XII(2) • S/1264/Corr.123 February 1949)_; as arranged by the UN Armistice Commission.  That Line is now _(and has been for a very long time)_ dissolved.  The Armistice Line, in that regard, sank into the annals of history with the establishment of the "permanent boundary between Egypt and Israel" found in Article II of the Treaty of Peace between the Arab Republic of Egypt and the State of Israel, 26 March 1979.



P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, you say that.  But you actually don't apply common sense.
> 
> SO,,,,  Without jumping into a tirade and immediately start an unsubstantiated denunciation of the Israeli position to defend their sovereign border → WHY don't you show us what law the Israelis have violated.
> 
> Of course, without the abusive language and tone...
> 
> 
> 
> Billo_Really said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> Let’s agree that you will be among the first to fly “Islamic Terrorist Airways”. Hamas and Islamic gee-had will be responsible for airport security.
> 
> Have a nice flight.
> 
> 
> 
> What Israel is doing is disgusting.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> *(COMMENT)*
> 
> Pick a point and defend it by explaining in Customary and International Humanitarian Law what the Israelis did that was so offensive and illegal.
> 
> If you think the Border in which the Israelis defend is illegal; then say so and cite the authority for that position.
> 
> If you think the Israelis cannot legally use force to defend their border, then say so, and cite the authority that supports that position.
> 
> BUT, no one here learns anything because you never defend your position in a rationale manner.
> 
> Most Respectfully,
> R
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> 
> If you think the Border in which the Israelis defend is illegal; then say so and cite the authority for that position.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The line around Gaza is the 1949 armistice line that was specifically not to be a political or territorial boundary. It ran through Palestine without demarcating any division of territory.
Click to expand...

*(COMMENT)*

Point:  The current boundary between Egypt and Israel follows the demarcation line "former mandated territory of Palestine" _(sic)_.  Under the Treaty _(__without prejudice to the issue of the status of the Gaza Strip)_ makes no distinction between the Gaza Strip and Israel.  The only reason the Gaza Strip has a boundary as all is because it was marked-out by Israel _(established demarcation - See the A/49/180-S/1994/727  Gaza Jericho Agreement 20 June 1994 - and  - A/51/889-S/1997/357 Israeli-Palestinian Interim Agreement on the West Bank and the Gaza Strip OSLO II Accord 28 September 1995)_ and maintained under the 5th subparagraph of the First Proclamation in the Declaration of Principles (A/RES/25/2625) (DOP):

"Every State likewise has the duty to refrain from the threat or use of force to violate international lines of demarcation, such as armistice lines, established by or pursuant to an international agreement to which it is a party or which it is otherwise bound to respect. Nothing in the foregoing shall be construed as prejudicing the positions of the parties concerned with regard to the status and effects of such lines under their special regimes or as affecting their temporary character."​
You can put that Armistice Agreement nonsense away.  While it was never a permanent boundary, it was a demarcation under the DOP and had the same protections as a boundary under the DOP.  It is good historical context, but because of the Arab Palestinian - Israeli Conflict, and the numerous failed attempts at a permanent peace, its relevance has diminished greatly.  

Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## P F Tinmore

RoccoR said:


> ))RE:  Israeli forces shoot unarmed protesters from across Gaza security fence, killing at least 15
> ※→  P F Tinmore, Billo_Really,  et al,
> 
> The 1949 Armistice Line around the Gaza Strip was established by the Armistice Agreement between the Egyptian Military Command and the Israeli Defense Force _(See:  Article XII(2) • S/1264/Corr.123 February 1949)_; as arranged by the UN Armistice Commission.  That Line is now _(and has been for a very long time)_ dissolved.  The Armistice Line, in that regard, sank into the annals of history with the establishment of the "permanent boundary between Egypt and Israel" found in Article II of the Treaty of Peace between the Arab Republic of Egypt and the State of Israel, 26 March 1979.
> 
> 
> 
> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, you say that.  But you actually don't apply common sense.
> 
> SO,,,,  Without jumping into a tirade and immediately start an unsubstantiated denunciation of the Israeli position to defend their sovereign border → WHY don't you show us what law the Israelis have violated.
> 
> Of course, without the abusive language and tone...
> 
> 
> 
> Billo_Really said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> Let’s agree that you will be among the first to fly “Islamic Terrorist Airways”. Hamas and Islamic gee-had will be responsible for airport security.
> 
> Have a nice flight.
> 
> 
> 
> What Israel is doing is disgusting.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> *(COMMENT)*
> 
> Pick a point and defend it by explaining in Customary and International Humanitarian Law what the Israelis did that was so offensive and illegal.
> 
> If you think the Border in which the Israelis defend is illegal; then say so and cite the authority for that position.
> 
> If you think the Israelis cannot legally use force to defend their border, then say so, and cite the authority that supports that position.
> 
> BUT, no one here learns anything because you never defend your position in a rationale manner.
> 
> Most Respectfully,
> R
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> 
> If you think the Border in which the Israelis defend is illegal; then say so and cite the authority for that position.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The line around Gaza is the 1949 armistice line that was specifically not to be a political or territorial boundary. It ran through Palestine without demarcating any division of territory.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> *(COMMENT)*
> 
> Point:  The current boundary between Egypt and Israel follows the demarcation line "former mandated territory of Palestine" _(sic)_.  Under the Treaty _(without prejudice to the issue of the status of the Gaza Strip)_ makes no distinction between the Gaza Strip and Israel.  The only reason the Gaza Strip has a boundary as all is because it was marked-out by Israel _(established demarcation - See the A/49/180-S/1994/727  Gaza Jericho Agreement 20 June 1994 - and  - A/51/889-S/1997/357 Israeli-Palestinian Interim Agreement on the West Bank and the Gaza Strip OSLO II Accord 28 September 1995)_ and maintained under the 5th subparagraph of the First Proclamation in the Declaration of Principles (A/RES/25/2625) (DOP):
> 
> "Every State likewise has the duty to refrain from the threat or use of force to violate international lines of demarcation, such as armistice lines, established by or pursuant to an international agreement to which it is a party or which it is otherwise bound to respect. Nothing in the foregoing shall be construed as prejudicing the positions of the parties concerned with regard to the status and effects of such lines under their special regimes or as affecting their temporary character."​
> You can put that Armistice Agreement nonsense away.  While it was never a permanent boundary, it was a demarcation under the DOP and had the same protections as a boundary under the DOP.  It is good historical context, but because of the Arab Palestinian - Israeli Conflict, and the numerous failed attempts at a permanent peace, its relevance has diminished greatly.
> 
> Most Respectfully,
> R
Click to expand...

The DOP was not a treaty defining borders.

The armistice lines around the West Bank and Gaza ran *through* Palestine.


----------



## Billo_Really

Shusha said:


> Protecting your border from a riot is disgusting?


You need to tell your government to knock this shit off! It is none of your goddamn business what goes on in Gaza.  You have no right to imprison 2 million people.  These people are not rioters.  They are protesters.  And they are protesting your treatment of them.


----------



## Billo_Really

RoccoR said:


> RE:  Israeli forces shoot unarmed protesters from across Gaza security fence, killing at least 15
> ※→  Billo_Really,  et al,
> 
> Yes, you say that.  But you actually don't apply common sense.
> 
> SO,,,,  Without jumping into a tirade and immediately start an unsubstantiated denunciation of the Israeli position to defend their sovereign border → WHY don't you show us what law the Israelis have violated.
> 
> Of course, without the abusive language and tone...
> 
> 
> 
> Billo_Really said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> Let’s agree that you will be among the first to fly “Islamic Terrorist Airways”. Hamas and Islamic gee-had will be responsible for airport security.
> 
> Have a nice flight.
> 
> 
> 
> What Israel is doing is disgusting.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> *(COMMENT)*
> 
> Pick a point and defend it by explaining in Customary and International Humanitarian Law what the Israelis did that was so offensive and illegal.
> 
> If you think the Border in which the Israelis defend is illegal; then say so and cite the authority for that position.
> 
> If you think the Israelis cannot legally use force to defend their border, then say so, and cite the authority that supports that position.
> 
> BUT, no one here learns anything because you never defend your position in a rationale manner.
> 
> Most Respectfully,
> R
Click to expand...

Your bullshit gets old.  Shooting unarmed protesters is not defending Israels border.  And an occupational force cannot claim self defense.  We've been through all this before, that's why I say, enough is enough.  It's time for military action against Israel to drive the goddamn Israeli's out of the territories they've occupied since the '67 war.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot

Billo_Really said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> 
> RE:  Israeli forces shoot unarmed protesters from across Gaza security fence, killing at least 15
> ※→  Billo_Really,  et al,
> 
> Yes, you say that.  But you actually don't apply common sense.
> 
> SO,,,,  Without jumping into a tirade and immediately start an unsubstantiated denunciation of the Israeli position to defend their sovereign border → WHY don't you show us what law the Israelis have violated.
> 
> Of course, without the abusive language and tone...
> 
> 
> 
> Billo_Really said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> Let’s agree that you will be among the first to fly “Islamic Terrorist Airways”. Hamas and Islamic gee-had will be responsible for airport security.
> 
> Have a nice flight.
> 
> 
> 
> What Israel is doing is disgusting.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> *(COMMENT)*
> 
> Pick a point and defend it by explaining in Customary and International Humanitarian Law what the Israelis did that was so offensive and illegal.
> 
> If you think the Border in which the Israelis defend is illegal; then say so and cite the authority for that position.
> 
> If you think the Israelis cannot legally use force to defend their border, then say so, and cite the authority that supports that position.
> 
> BUT, no one here learns anything because you never defend your position in a rationale manner.
> 
> Most Respectfully,
> R
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Your bullshit gets old.  Shooting unarmed protesters is not defending Israels border.  And an occupational force cannot claim self defense.  We've been through all this before, that's why I say, enough is enough.  It's time for military action against Israel to drive the goddamn Israeli's out of the territories they've occupied since the '67 war.
Click to expand...


* It's time for military action against Israel to drive the goddamn Israeli's out of the territories they've occupied since the '67 war. 
*
That's funny! Which of their neighbors are you volunteering for more territory loss?


----------



## RetiredGySgt

Billo_Really said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> 
> RE:  Israeli forces shoot unarmed protesters from across Gaza security fence, killing at least 15
> ※→  Billo_Really,  et al,
> 
> Yes, you say that.  But you actually don't apply common sense.
> 
> SO,,,,  Without jumping into a tirade and immediately start an unsubstantiated denunciation of the Israeli position to defend their sovereign border → WHY don't you show us what law the Israelis have violated.
> 
> Of course, without the abusive language and tone...
> 
> 
> 
> Billo_Really said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> Let’s agree that you will be among the first to fly “Islamic Terrorist Airways”. Hamas and Islamic gee-had will be responsible for airport security.
> 
> Have a nice flight.
> 
> 
> 
> What Israel is doing is disgusting.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> *(COMMENT)*
> 
> Pick a point and defend it by explaining in Customary and International Humanitarian Law what the Israelis did that was so offensive and illegal.
> 
> If you think the Border in which the Israelis defend is illegal; then say so and cite the authority for that position.
> 
> If you think the Israelis cannot legally use force to defend their border, then say so, and cite the authority that supports that position.
> 
> BUT, no one here learns anything because you never defend your position in a rationale manner.
> 
> Most Respectfully,
> R
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Your bullshit gets old.  Shooting unarmed protesters is not defending Israels border.  And an occupational force cannot claim self defense.  We've been through all this before, that's why I say, enough is enough.  It's time for military action against Israel to drive the goddamn Israeli's out of the territories they've occupied since the '67 war.
Click to expand...

THEY WERE NOT UNARMED. Every dead pal was wielding a weapon, slingshot Molotov cocktail or grenade. Do keep up RETARD.


----------



## Shusha

Billo_Really said:


> It is none of your goddamn business what goes on in Gaza.  You have no right to imprison 2 million people.  These people are not rioters.  They are protesters.  And they are protesting your treatment of them.



I agree wholeheartedly that it is none of Israel's business what goes on in Gaza.  You have no idea how much I agree with you.  There is SO much not-Israel-business because Israel withdrew and essentially ceded the territory to the Arab Palestinians more than ten years ago.  Removed not only the occupation, but every single last Jew.  Gaza is the closest thing to an independent, self-governing State that the Palestinians have.  There are multiple borders with other sovereigns for economic trade and passage for people. There is NO border dispute with Israel or with Egypt.  There are ample resources and opportunities for development and economic growth -- agriculture, tourism, natural gas, industrialization agreements with Israel.  The sooner Gaza has full sovereignty and a thriving economy -- the better.

The question remains -- why does Gaza not have this already?! 

Here's the answer:

Because the leader of the government in Gaza stated at the riot *cough cough* protest (paraphrased):

*"We are going to to break down the fence and march to Jerusalem tearing out the hearts of Jews along the way."*

And then dozens or hundreds of rioters with lethal weapons attempted to do just that.

THAT, my friend, is why Gaza is not a sovereign, independent State. 

And it is absolutely UNCONSCIONABLE that people like you and Humanity refuse to condemn the violence of both word and deed.


----------



## Shusha

Billo_Really said:


> Your bullshit gets old.  Shooting unarmed protesters is not defending Israels border.  And an occupational force cannot claim self defense.  We've been through all this before, that's why I say, enough is enough.  It's time for military action against Israel to drive the goddamn Israeli's out of the territories they've occupied since the '67 war.



Newsflash.  Israel is not occupying Gaza.  Hasn't for more than a decade.  

What you are asking for, then, is an end to the blockade and an open border with Israel.  Not going to happen without a regular commitment by the government of Gaza to renounce violence and accept Israel as her neighbor.  

Why won't they do that?


----------



## Humanity

RetiredGySgt said:


> Humanity said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> 
> RE:  Israeli forces shoot unarmed protesters from across Gaza security fence, killing at least 15
> ※→  Humanity, _et al,_
> 
> The "right to resist" is not the issue.  The issue is about directing actual "violence" directed against the "Occupying Power."
> 
> 
> 
> Humanity said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> And in the meantime, are you going to condemn the violence and the incitement to violence committed against Israel? I suspect you will not. I suspect you, like others here, feel that Arabs have the right to "resist" while Jews do not have the right to defend themselves. I suspect that you hold double standards with respect to use of force -- one set of rules for Israel and one for others. You are just more careful than others to reveal it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As you well know, I have always condemned the Hamas regime for many things, including violence.
> 
> However, yes, the Palestinians DO have a right to resist. Hell, if they didn't Israel would be much larger than it is already! Legally or otherwise!
> 
> As you well know, I have said that Israel has the right to defend itself. No double standards from me on that one!
> 
> The issues I have are the excessive use of force by Israel. Something that you will not accept.
> 
> And you accuse me of double standards!
> 
> Both you and I know that there is such an imbalance of 'forces' yet you consider that tanks are an acceptable answer to stones and slingshots... Want to discuss double standards?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> *(COMMENT)*
> 
> I would like to remind you if the obligations under the International Human Rights Law/
> 
> ※  *Article 68*  ※   Convention (IV) relative to the Protection of Civilian Persons in Time of War. Geneva, 12 August 1949.
> 
> Protected persons _(Arab Palestinians)_ who commit an offence which is solely intended to harm the Occupying Power _(Israel)_, but which does not constitute an attempt on the life or limb of members of the occupying forces or administration, nor a grave collective danger, nor seriously damage the property of the occupying forces or administration or the installations used by them, shall be liable to internment or simple imprisonment, provided the duration of such internment or imprisonment is proportionate to the offence committed. Furthermore, internment or imprisonment shall, for such offences, be the only measure adopted for depriving protected persons of liberty. The courts provided for under Article 66  of the present Convention may at their discretion convert a sentence of imprisonment to one of internment for the same period.
> The penal provisions promulgated by the Occupying Power _(Israel)_ in accordance with Articles 64  and 65  may impose the death penalty on a protected person _(Arab Palestinians)_ only in cases where the person is guilty of espionage, of serious acts of sabotage against the military installations of the Occupying Power _(Israel)_ or of intentional offences which have caused the death of one or more persons, provided that such offences were punishable by death under the law of the occupied territory in force before the occupation began.
> The death penalty may not be pronounced against a protected person unless the attention of the court has been particularly called to the fact that since the accused is not a national of the Occupying Power, he is not bound to it by any duty of allegiance.
> In any case, the death penalty may not be pronounced against a protected person who was under eighteen years of age at the time of the offence.​
> ※   *Article 75*  ※  Fundamental Guarantees  Protocol Additional to the Geneva Conventions of 12 August 1949, and relating to the Protection of Victims of International Armed Conflicts (Protocol I)
> 
> 1. In so far as they are affected by a situation referred to in Article 1 [ Link ]  of this Protocol, persons who are in the power of a Party to the conflict and who do not benefit from more favourable treatment under the Conventions or under this Protocol shall be treated humanely in all circumstances and shall enjoy, as a minimum, the protection provided by this Article without any adverse distinction based upon race, colour, sex, language, religion or belief, political or other opinion, national or social origin, wealth, birth or other status, or on any other similar criteria. Each Party shall respect the person, honour, convictions and religious practices of all such persons.
> 
> 2. The following acts are and shall remain prohibited at any time and in any place whatsoever, whether committed by civilian or by military agents:
> (a) violence to the life, health, or physical or mental well-being of persons, in particular:
> 
> (i) murder;
> 
> (ii) torture of all kinds, whether physical or mental;
> 
> (iii) corporal punishment; and
> 
> (iv) mutilation;​(b) outrages upon personal dignity, in particular humiliating and degrading treatment, enforced prostitution and any form of indecent assault;
> 
> (c) the taking of hostages;
> 
> (d) collective punishments; and
> 
> (e) threats to commit any of the foregoing acts.​This is what is meant by the "Rule of Law."  What the Hostile Arab Palestinians (HoAP) must understand, is that if they commit an act, that would be a crime in any other reasonable circumstance, that it would also be a crime in the occupied territories.  There is a consequence to thei ractions and they are obliged to pay it.
> 
> Most Respectfully,
> R
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> That is funny...
> 
> Quoting Geneva Conventions to support Israel! hahahaha
> 
> Where does it say in the Geneva Conventions that its ok to use tanks against civilians?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> When planting a bomb one is NO LONGER a civilian.
Click to expand...


Still waiting to see something, anything, that supports your claim!


----------



## Humanity

Shusha said:


> Humanity said:
> 
> 
> 
> Post a video of the farmer, the day before the march started, planting a bomb under the fence. Post a video of other means being used before the "last resort".
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ah.  So that is your standard for international law concerning the use of lethal force?  That no use of lethal force may be used without video proof of surveillance with evidence of lethal weapons and of the escalating deterrents?  And that standard for each individual death doesn't seem...well, just the smallest bit ridiculous to you?
Click to expand...


I know, let's look at your "last resort".... What, to you, is "last resort"?

You can bitch and bleat as much as you like... No one, including you, has been able to show any proof that the farmer killed the day before the march, by tank shelling, was attempting anything!

Team Israel quoting international law, Geneva Conventions, international 'standards' as some kind of defense has to be the biggest joke of the year...


----------



## Hollie

Humanity said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Humanity said:
> 
> 
> 
> Post a video of the farmer, the day before the march started, planting a bomb under the fence. Post a video of other means being used before the "last resort".
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ah.  So that is your standard for international law concerning the use of lethal force?  That no use of lethal force may be used without video proof of surveillance with evidence of lethal weapons and of the escalating deterrents?  And that standard for each individual death doesn't seem...well, just the smallest bit ridiculous to you?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I know, let's look at your "last resort".... What, to you, is "last resort"?
> 
> You can bitch and bleat as much as you like... No one, including you, has been able to show any proof that the farmer killed the day before the march, by tank shelling, was attempting anything!
> 
> Team Israel quoting international law, Geneva Conventions, international 'standards' as some kind of defense has to be the biggest joke of the year...
Click to expand...


In your rush to condemn the Joooooos, you fail to realize that the "farmer" had been observed performing suspicious activity, on two occasions, at night. Farming is not generally done under cover of darkness. Additionally, you fail to realize that the actions of the farmer were done in the context of imminent riots and attempts to breach israeli border areas announced by Hamas. In that context, getting anywhere near a military zone, at night, is the definition of poor judgement.

 I tend to agree that holding Israel to standards of international law and Geneva Convention standards is reasonable. I see nothing to suggest any breach of those standards. 

I also agree that Team Islamic Terrorist Huggers make no pretense that holding islamic terrorists to standards of international law and Geneva Convention protocols makes a lot of sense. Islamic terrorists are allowed an exception to all standards of moral and ethical behavior because you choose to allow that.


----------



## Humanity

Hollie said:


> Humanity said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Humanity said:
> 
> 
> 
> Post a video of the farmer, the day before the march started, planting a bomb under the fence. Post a video of other means being used before the "last resort".
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ah.  So that is your standard for international law concerning the use of lethal force?  That no use of lethal force may be used without video proof of surveillance with evidence of lethal weapons and of the escalating deterrents?  And that standard for each individual death doesn't seem...well, just the smallest bit ridiculous to you?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I know, let's look at your "last resort".... What, to you, is "last resort"?
> 
> You can bitch and bleat as much as you like... No one, including you, has been able to show any proof that the farmer killed the day before the march, by tank shelling, was attempting anything!
> 
> Team Israel quoting international law, Geneva Conventions, international 'standards' as some kind of defense has to be the biggest joke of the year...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> In your rush to condemn the Joooooos, you fail to realize that the "farmer" had been observed performing suspicious activity, on two occasions, at night. Farming is not generally done under cover of darkness. Additionally, you fail to realize that the actions of the farmer were done in the context of imminent riots and attempts to breach israeli border areas announced by Hamas. In that context, getting anywhere near a military zone, at night, is the definition of poor judgement.
> 
> I tend to agree that holding Israel to standards of international law and Geneva Convention standards is reasonable. I see nothing to suggest any breach of those standards.
> 
> I also agree that Team Islamic Terrorist Huggers make no pretense that holding islamic terrorists to standards of international law and Geneva Convention protocols makes a lot of sense. Islamic terrorists are allowed an exception to all standards of moral and ethical behavior because you choose to allow that.
Click to expand...


Wow, you know, it's not rocket science...

In your rush to try and be clever you simply bleat like a bitch...

Post something to support your statement and stop wasting bandwidth!


----------



## Hollie

Humanity said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Humanity said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Humanity said:
> 
> 
> 
> Post a video of the farmer, the day before the march started, planting a bomb under the fence. Post a video of other means being used before the "last resort".
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ah.  So that is your standard for international law concerning the use of lethal force?  That no use of lethal force may be used without video proof of surveillance with evidence of lethal weapons and of the escalating deterrents?  And that standard for each individual death doesn't seem...well, just the smallest bit ridiculous to you?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I know, let's look at your "last resort".... What, to you, is "last resort"?
> 
> You can bitch and bleat as much as you like... No one, including you, has been able to show any proof that the farmer killed the day before the march, by tank shelling, was attempting anything!
> 
> Team Israel quoting international law, Geneva Conventions, international 'standards' as some kind of defense has to be the biggest joke of the year...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> In your rush to condemn the Joooooos, you fail to realize that the "farmer" had been observed performing suspicious activity, on two occasions, at night. Farming is not generally done under cover of darkness. Additionally, you fail to realize that the actions of the farmer were done in the context of imminent riots and attempts to breach israeli border areas announced by Hamas. In that context, getting anywhere near a military zone, at night, is the definition of poor judgement.
> 
> I tend to agree that holding Israel to standards of international law and Geneva Convention standards is reasonable. I see nothing to suggest any breach of those standards.
> 
> I also agree that Team Islamic Terrorist Huggers make no pretense that holding islamic terrorists to standards of international law and Geneva Convention protocols makes a lot of sense. Islamic terrorists are allowed an exception to all standards of moral and ethical behavior because you choose to allow that.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Wow, you know, it's not rocket science...
> 
> In your rush to try and be clever you simply bleat like a bitch...
> 
> Post something to support your statement and stop wasting bandwidth!
Click to expand...


No reason to get snippy. I presented you a logical progression of events, one of which was a case to be made for "farming" of cover of darkness was suspicious in the context of a planned act of war (attempting to breach border controls) by an entity sworn to destroy Israel. 

Your failure to support your argument is not my heartache.


----------



## Humanity

Hollie said:


> Humanity said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Humanity said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Humanity said:
> 
> 
> 
> Post a video of the farmer, the day before the march started, planting a bomb under the fence. Post a video of other means being used before the "last resort".
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ah.  So that is your standard for international law concerning the use of lethal force?  That no use of lethal force may be used without video proof of surveillance with evidence of lethal weapons and of the escalating deterrents?  And that standard for each individual death doesn't seem...well, just the smallest bit ridiculous to you?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I know, let's look at your "last resort".... What, to you, is "last resort"?
> 
> You can bitch and bleat as much as you like... No one, including you, has been able to show any proof that the farmer killed the day before the march, by tank shelling, was attempting anything!
> 
> Team Israel quoting international law, Geneva Conventions, international 'standards' as some kind of defense has to be the biggest joke of the year...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> In your rush to condemn the Joooooos, you fail to realize that the "farmer" had been observed performing suspicious activity, on two occasions, at night. Farming is not generally done under cover of darkness. Additionally, you fail to realize that the actions of the farmer were done in the context of imminent riots and attempts to breach israeli border areas announced by Hamas. In that context, getting anywhere near a military zone, at night, is the definition of poor judgement.
> 
> I tend to agree that holding Israel to standards of international law and Geneva Convention standards is reasonable. I see nothing to suggest any breach of those standards.
> 
> I also agree that Team Islamic Terrorist Huggers make no pretense that holding islamic terrorists to standards of international law and Geneva Convention protocols makes a lot of sense. Islamic terrorists are allowed an exception to all standards of moral and ethical behavior because you choose to allow that.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Wow, you know, it's not rocket science...
> 
> In your rush to try and be clever you simply bleat like a bitch...
> 
> Post something to support your statement and stop wasting bandwidth!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No reason to get snippy. I presented you a logical progression of events, one of which was a case to be made for "farming" of cover of darkness was suspicious in the context of a planned act of war (attempting to breach border controls) by an entity sworn to destroy Israel.
> 
> Your failure to support your argument is not my heartache.
Click to expand...


Wrong...

I have supported my argument with links, you have supported your argument with nothing but bullshit...


----------



## Hollie

Humanity said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Humanity said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Humanity said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> Ah.  So that is your standard for international law concerning the use of lethal force?  That no use of lethal force may be used without video proof of surveillance with evidence of lethal weapons and of the escalating deterrents?  And that standard for each individual death doesn't seem...well, just the smallest bit ridiculous to you?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I know, let's look at your "last resort".... What, to you, is "last resort"?
> 
> You can bitch and bleat as much as you like... No one, including you, has been able to show any proof that the farmer killed the day before the march, by tank shelling, was attempting anything!
> 
> Team Israel quoting international law, Geneva Conventions, international 'standards' as some kind of defense has to be the biggest joke of the year...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> In your rush to condemn the Joooooos, you fail to realize that the "farmer" had been observed performing suspicious activity, on two occasions, at night. Farming is not generally done under cover of darkness. Additionally, you fail to realize that the actions of the farmer were done in the context of imminent riots and attempts to breach israeli border areas announced by Hamas. In that context, getting anywhere near a military zone, at night, is the definition of poor judgement.
> 
> I tend to agree that holding Israel to standards of international law and Geneva Convention standards is reasonable. I see nothing to suggest any breach of those standards.
> 
> I also agree that Team Islamic Terrorist Huggers make no pretense that holding islamic terrorists to standards of international law and Geneva Convention protocols makes a lot of sense. Islamic terrorists are allowed an exception to all standards of moral and ethical behavior because you choose to allow that.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Wow, you know, it's not rocket science...
> 
> In your rush to try and be clever you simply bleat like a bitch...
> 
> Post something to support your statement and stop wasting bandwidth!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No reason to get snippy. I presented you a logical progression of events, one of which was a case to be made for "farming" of cover of darkness was suspicious in the context of a planned act of war (attempting to breach border controls) by an entity sworn to destroy Israel.
> 
> Your failure to support your argument is not my heartache.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Wrong...
> 
> I have supported my argument with links, you have supported your argument with nothing but bullshit...
Click to expand...


Well, actually, you supported nothing. 

Support your claim that the "farmer" was, under cover of darkness, actually farming. 

What corroboration can you offer? What link have you presented to support your claim that the "farmer" was attending to his fields, under cover of darkness.

I saw nothing that that you presented.


----------



## RoccoR

RE:  Israeli forces shoot unarmed protesters from across Gaza security fence, killing at least 15
※→  P F Tinmore,  et al,

Irrelevant.  This is subterfuge → as an attempt to discredit the response.

I preface this response with the observation that the Arab Palestinians, as a member of the international community _(2012 Observer Status)_ do not follow, and have not followed for half a century, the 



P F Tinmore said:


> The DOP was not a treaty defining borders.
> 
> The armistice lines around the West Bank and Gaza ran *through* Palestine.


*(COMMENT)*

Agreed, the Declaration of Principles (DOP) does not define what a border is.  A border need not be defined, it is a near self-evident perimeter.   The DOP is a Solemn Proclamation that takes into consideration the Customary Law _(principles of international law relating to friendly relations and co-operation among States)_; the first of which is about the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence.

Second:  Immediately prior to the of the UN General Assembly Resolution which accords to Palestine non-member observer State status in the United Nations (UN), without prejudice to the acquired rights, privileges and role of the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO), the "Palestine was treated as an entity" (A/RES/67/19) and  (Legal Memorandum related to A/RES/67/19).   The UN decided (A/RES/43/177) that effective as of 15 December 1988, the designation "Palestine" should be used in place of the designation "Palestine Liberation Organization" (PLO).  And, prior to the 1988 designation, that portion of territory that was not self-governing, territory to which the first Order in Council applied and that defined Palestine, "Legal Entity"  the government of which was an agency of the UN. (See Memorandum "A" → A/AC.21/UK/42 25 February 1948 → *The Legal Meaning of the "Termination of the Mandate*").

When "YOU" say that the Armistice Lines (dissolved in 1979 and 1994 respectively) "ran *through* Palestine" → noting the emphasis on the word "through." "YOU" are saying that the Armistice Lines ran through the territory formerly known as "the territories to which the Mandate for Palestine applies, hereinafter described as Palestine." (See:  ✪  Palestine Order in LoN Council -  10 August 1922)

After the 15th May, 1948, Palestine continued to be a legal entity but for the immediately self-governing. The authority responsible for the non-self-governing portion means "United Nations Commission will be the Government of Palestine."

YOUR statement is entirely incorrect and inaccurate.  The Armistice Lines were drawn independently of the perimeter of the territory former under the Mandate of Palestine or the United Nations Commission acting as the Government of Palestine.  Historical Lines are just Historical Lines.

Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## P F Tinmore

RoccoR said:


> RE:  Israeli forces shoot unarmed protesters from across Gaza security fence, killing at least 15
> ※→  P F Tinmore,  et al,
> 
> Irrelevant.  This is subterfuge → as an attempt to discredit the response.
> 
> I preface this response with the observation that the Arab Palestinians, as a member of the international community _(2012 Observer Status)_ do not follow, and have not followed for half a century, the
> 
> 
> 
> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> The DOP was not a treaty defining borders.
> 
> The armistice lines around the West Bank and Gaza ran *through* Palestine.
> 
> 
> 
> *(COMMENT)*
> 
> Agreed, the Declaration of Principles (DOP) does not define what a border is.  A border need not be defined, it is a near self-evident perimeter.   The DOP is a Solemn Proclamation that takes into consideration the Customary Law _(principles of international law relating to friendly relations and co-operation among States)_; the first of which is about the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence.
> 
> Second:  Immediately prior to the of the UN General Assembly Resolution which accords to Palestine non-member observer State status in the United Nations (UN), without prejudice to the acquired rights, privileges and role of the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO), the "Palestine was treated as an entity" (A/RES/67/19) and  (Legal Memorandum related to A/RES/67/19).   The UN decided (A/RES/43/177) that effective as of 15 December 1988, the designation "Palestine" should be used in place of the designation "Palestine Liberation Organization" (PLO).  And, prior to the 1988 designation, that portion of territory that was not self-governing, territory to which the first Order in Council applied and that defined Palestine, "Legal Entity"  the government of which was an agency of the UN. (See Memorandum "A" → A/AC.21/UK/42 25 February 1948 → *The Legal Meaning of the "Termination of the Mandate*").
> 
> When "YOU" say that the Armistice Lines (dissolved in 1979 and 1994 respectively) "ran *through* Palestine" → noting the emphasis on the word "through." "YOU" are saying that the Armistice Lines ran through the territory formerly known as "the territories to which the Mandate for Palestine applies, hereinafter described as Palestine." (See:  ✪  Palestine Order in LoN Council -  10 August 1922)
> 
> After the 15th May, 1948, Palestine continued to be a legal entity but for the immediately self-governing. The authority responsible for the non-self-governing portion means "United Nations Commission will be the Government of Palestine."
> 
> YOUR statement is entirely incorrect and inaccurate.  The Armistice Lines were drawn independently of the perimeter of the territory former under the Mandate of Palestine or the United Nations Commission acting as the Government of Palestine.  Historical Lines are just Historical Lines.
> 
> Most Respectfully,
> R
Click to expand...




RoccoR said:


> "YOU" are saying that the Armistice Lines ran through the territory formerly known as "the territories to which the Mandate for Palestine applies,


You are trying to smokescreen the issue. Whether there was a Mandate or not does not matter. It was just an appointed administration that had no affect on the territory. Funny that you do not use mandated territory for Syria or Jordan.

That said: the armistice lines ran between Palestine and its surrounding countries except for the West Bank and Gaza where they ran through Palestine. The Mandate left Palestine the year before so why mention it? There was no mention of the Mandate at all in the armistice agreements.


----------



## Tilly

P F Tinmore said:


> *BREAKING NEWS: Palestinian Journalist Fatally Shot While Covering Gaza Protest*
> 
> **





*Report: Gaza journalist killed during border protest was Hamas member*

*Report: Gaza journalist killed during protest was Hamas member*


----------



## Tilly

P F Tinmore said:


> *Gaza protests: More unarmed Palestinians killed and wounded*
> 
> **


Maybe they should consider staying away from the border. Dumbasses.


----------



## Tilly

P F Tinmore said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 'There would be no killings if Hamas told protesters to stay away from border'– Israeli PM spokesman
> 
> 'There would be no killings if Hamas told protesters to stay away from border'– Israeli PM spokesman
> 
> Speaking to RT, David Keyes, Benjamin Netanyahu's foreign media spokesperson, said the 'Great Return' protests staged by Palestinians along the security border fence separating the enclave from the Israeli-held territory are the _"opposite of peaceful protests."_
> 
> _"The aim of this event is to swarm into Israel and overwhelm it, and it's a part of a long track record by Hamas of waging war against Israel, launching tens of thousands of missiles, conducting suicide bombings against cafes, against civilians and in buses,"_ Keys charged. He went on to argue that Israel essentially bears no responsibility for the deaths of 17 people and the injuries of hundreds more during the Friday clashes, as it only fought back against Hamas, which has been de facto in control of the Gaza Strip.
> 
> Hamas is, consequently, the one with the ability to rein in the violence, by demanding that its supporters stay clear of the border fence, Keys argued
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No Hamas spokesbeards were near the border area for comment as they were safely ensconced in their luxury condos, far from the conflict, leaving the slovenly minions to inhale toxic smoke and fumes.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 'There would be no killings if Hamas told protesters to stay away from border'– Israeli PM spokesman
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> That is one of the things they are protesting, dumbfuck.
Click to expand...

They are protesting the right to attack Israel at its border with impunity? Dumbasses.


----------



## P F Tinmore

Tilly said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 'There would be no killings if Hamas told protesters to stay away from border'– Israeli PM spokesman
> 
> 'There would be no killings if Hamas told protesters to stay away from border'– Israeli PM spokesman
> 
> Speaking to RT, David Keyes, Benjamin Netanyahu's foreign media spokesperson, said the 'Great Return' protests staged by Palestinians along the security border fence separating the enclave from the Israeli-held territory are the _"opposite of peaceful protests."_
> 
> _"The aim of this event is to swarm into Israel and overwhelm it, and it's a part of a long track record by Hamas of waging war against Israel, launching tens of thousands of missiles, conducting suicide bombings against cafes, against civilians and in buses,"_ Keys charged. He went on to argue that Israel essentially bears no responsibility for the deaths of 17 people and the injuries of hundreds more during the Friday clashes, as it only fought back against Hamas, which has been de facto in control of the Gaza Strip.
> 
> Hamas is, consequently, the one with the ability to rein in the violence, by demanding that its supporters stay clear of the border fence, Keys argued
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No Hamas spokesbeards were near the border area for comment as they were safely ensconced in their luxury condos, far from the conflict, leaving the slovenly minions to inhale toxic smoke and fumes.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 'There would be no killings if Hamas told protesters to stay away from border'– Israeli PM spokesman
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> That is one of the things they are protesting, dumbfuck.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> They are protesting the right to attack Israel at its border with impunity? Dumbasses.
Click to expand...

Israel?

Najd, Gaza - Wikipedia


----------



## Roudy

Tilly said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> *BREAKING NEWS: Palestinian Journalist Fatally Shot While Covering Gaza Protest*
> 
> **
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Report: Gaza journalist killed during border protest was Hamas member*
> 
> *Report: Gaza journalist killed during protest was Hamas member*
Click to expand...

He must have also been a member of the Pallywood actor's guild.


----------



## Humanity

Hollie said:


> Humanity said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Humanity said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Humanity said:
> 
> 
> 
> I know, let's look at your "last resort".... What, to you, is "last resort"?
> 
> You can bitch and bleat as much as you like... No one, including you, has been able to show any proof that the farmer killed the day before the march, by tank shelling, was attempting anything!
> 
> Team Israel quoting international law, Geneva Conventions, international 'standards' as some kind of defense has to be the biggest joke of the year...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In your rush to condemn the Joooooos, you fail to realize that the "farmer" had been observed performing suspicious activity, on two occasions, at night. Farming is not generally done under cover of darkness. Additionally, you fail to realize that the actions of the farmer were done in the context of imminent riots and attempts to breach israeli border areas announced by Hamas. In that context, getting anywhere near a military zone, at night, is the definition of poor judgement.
> 
> I tend to agree that holding Israel to standards of international law and Geneva Convention standards is reasonable. I see nothing to suggest any breach of those standards.
> 
> I also agree that Team Islamic Terrorist Huggers make no pretense that holding islamic terrorists to standards of international law and Geneva Convention protocols makes a lot of sense. Islamic terrorists are allowed an exception to all standards of moral and ethical behavior because you choose to allow that.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Wow, you know, it's not rocket science...
> 
> In your rush to try and be clever you simply bleat like a bitch...
> 
> Post something to support your statement and stop wasting bandwidth!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No reason to get snippy. I presented you a logical progression of events, one of which was a case to be made for "farming" of cover of darkness was suspicious in the context of a planned act of war (attempting to breach border controls) by an entity sworn to destroy Israel.
> 
> Your failure to support your argument is not my heartache.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Wrong...
> 
> I have supported my argument with links, you have supported your argument with nothing but bullshit...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Well, actually, you supported nothing.
> 
> Support your claim that the "farmer" was, under cover of darkness, actually farming.
> 
> What corroboration can you offer? What link have you presented to support your claim that the "farmer" was attending to his fields, under cover of darkness.
> 
> I saw nothing that that you presented.
Click to expand...


Is it my problem that you didn't read the link I posted?

Did you even bother to post a link?


----------



## RoccoR

RE:  Israeli forces shoot unarmed protesters from across Gaza security fence, killing at least 15
※→  P F Tinmore,  et al,

Are you intentionally using subterfuge to avoid the central issue being addressed??



P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> 
> "YOU" are saying that the Armistice Lines ran through the territory formerly known as "the territories to which the Mandate for Palestine applies,
> 
> 
> 
> You are trying to smokescreen the issue. Whether there was a Mandate or not does not matter. It was just an appointed administration that had no affect on the territory. Funny that you do not use mandated territory for Syria or Jordan.
Click to expand...

*(COMMENT)*

There is a history and a timeline to the true meaning of the term "PALESTINE."  And I gave you the history and timeline to show, step-by-step what the term meant.  At the time the Armistice Lines were drawn, the term "Palestine" did not mean the entirety of the former mandate territory.  The Armistice Lines was a demarcation of forces engaged in a conflict over the territory as defined by the UK Mandatory in the Memo I cited.

Don't be so thick as to not understand that the engagement of Arab League Forces changed the apportionment of the territory formerly under the Mandate.  The Armistice brought an end to the conflict.  The term "Palestine had no further real territorial meaning at that point.  It became a regional name.  And that is where the Memo picks-up.




P F Tinmore said:


> That said: the armistice lines ran between Palestine and its surrounding countries except for the West Bank and Gaza where they ran through Palestine. The Mandate left Palestine the year before so why mention it? There was no mention of the Mandate at all in the armistice agreements.


*(COMMENT)*

Entirely wrong.  Monumentally wrong.  The Armistice Lines separated the Arab League Forces from the Israeli Defense Force controlled areas; it was not a political-geographic demarcation of soverenty.  At the point in time, the various occupation areas were established.  There was no administrative area of Palestine remaining.  For all intent and purposes, the UN Government of Palestine ceased to exist at the outbreak of hostilities.  It never was reconstituted.

Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## Shusha

Humanity said:


> I know, let's look at your "last resort".... What, to you, is "last resort"?
> 
> You can bitch and bleat as much as you like... No one, including you, has been able to show any proof that the farmer killed the day before the march, by tank shelling, was attempting anything!



Your continued failure to condemn the use of violence by Gazans during a "peaceful protest" in 47 pages of material is repugnant.  

Your strident denial that violence has occurred during this protest is shameful and beyond understanding.

You have been presented with media reports, statements by the IDF, photographic evidence, videos, statements made by the government of Gaza and there is ample further material available for anyone who spends a fraction of a minute researching the events.  

In the days leading up to the "protest" and during it there have been:


incitements to violence by the governing body of Gaza ("tear the hearts out of Israelis")
IEDs planted along the fence 
infiltration into Israeli towns with knives and grenades
attempted attacks with assault rifles
grenades
firebombs
rocks and slingshots
burning tires (to provide cover)
breaches and attempted breaches of the fence
drone surveillance behind the border

The continued insistence that these are "farmers" and "peaceful protesters" is ludicrious.

You have been given ample time to condemn these acts of violence and have not.  Fair enough.  Your choice.  But in our next conversation do not plead with me:





Humanity said:


> As you well know, I have condemned Palestinian violence in the past.


 as I will remain unmoved.  You have revealed yourself, and I see you.


As for "last resort", we don't have to ask what my standards are -- we have IDF spokesman who give us their standards:

1.  A 300m no-go zone that has been in place for more than ten years.  
2.  Social media and physical pamphlet drops, in Arabic, warning Gazans to keep their distance from the fence.
3.  Use of non-lethal methods of crowd dispersal such as tear gas
4.  Verbal warnings
5.  Warning shots
6.  Non-lethal sniper fire for incapacitation
7.  Precision lethal sniper fire with special permission or in the face of a credible threat (weapon or immanent breach).


----------



## Humanity

Shusha said:


> Your strident denial that violence has occurred



I would love for you to show me where I have denied any violence Shusha!

It's ok, I will wait!


----------



## Humanity

Shusha said:


> You have been presented with media reports, statements by the IDF, photographic evidence, videos, statements made by the government of Gaza and there is ample further material available for anyone who spends a fraction of a minute researching the events.



I have been presented with a lot of things Shusha, except the one single thing I have asked for. I call that deflection.

Team Israel has become very good at this, here, read this, read that, and hides behind the BS of state media.

Yep, you too have shown your true colours Shusha, congratulations!


----------



## Shusha

Humanity said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> Your strident denial that violence has occurred
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I would love for you to show me where I have denied any violence Shusha!
> 
> It's ok, I will wait!
Click to expand...


You have been denying violence by omission since the start of the thread.  If you don't deny it -- why won't you condemn it?


----------



## Humanity

Shusha said:


> The continued insistence that these are "farmers" and "peaceful protesters" is ludicrious.



I spoke of ONE farmer Shusha, not "farmers", you remember, the one who was shelled by a tank BEFORE the marches?

Not a single Team Israel member has been able to show anything that says he was planting a bomb under the fence!


----------



## Humanity

Shusha said:


> Humanity said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> Your strident denial that violence has occurred
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I would love for you to show me where I have denied any violence Shusha!
> 
> It's ok, I will wait!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You have been denying violence by omission since the start of the thread.  If you don't deny it -- why won't you condemn it?
Click to expand...


I'm still waiting Shusha!


----------



## Shusha

Humanity said:


> I have been presented with a lot of things Shusha, except the one single thing I have asked for. I call that deflection.



Not so, you have been provided with media reports with include IDF spokesman quotes concerning the incident in question.


----------



## Humanity

Shusha said:


> Humanity said:
> 
> 
> 
> I have been presented with a lot of things Shusha, except the one single thing I have asked for. I call that deflection.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Not so, you have been provided with media reports with include IDF spokesman quotes concerning the incident in question.
Click to expand...


Wrong, I have been presented with a whole bunch of Team Israel media reports relating to just about EVERY incident EXCEPT the one I am asking for!

The media report I posted stated that witnesses came forward and said that he was working his land. The IDF did not comment!


----------



## Shusha

Humanity said:


> I spoke of ONE farmer Shusha, not "farmers", you remember, the one who was shelled by a tank BEFORE the marches?
> 
> Not a single Team Israel member has been able to show anything that says he was planting a bomb under the fence!



There were three IEDs (going from memory) planted BEFORE the marches as well.  The timing is irrelevant with respect to IDF response.  Suspicious activity ( documented by the IDF, digging holes under the fence, in the no-go zone after being warned not to approach the fence) in light of the context here is sufficient. 

And you are deliberately focusing on this one farmer in an attempt to demonize Israel while entirely ignoring the context of the situation, which IS relevant.


----------



## Shusha

Humanity said:


> The media report I posted stated that witnesses came forward and said that he was working his land. The IDF did not comment!



Oops...  The source I quoted, which you acknowledge, did have a comment from the IDF.



Humanity said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> _The army said that the “two suspects approached the perimeter fence… and engaged in suspicious behavior on the ground alongside it. In response, an IDF unit fired at them with a tank.”  _Source
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *The army said that the “two suspects approached the perimeter fence… and engaged in suspicious behavior on the ground alongside it.* In response, an IDF unit fired at them with a tank.”
Click to expand...


----------



## Humanity

Shusha said:


> Humanity said:
> 
> 
> 
> I spoke of ONE farmer Shusha, not "farmers", you remember, the one who was shelled by a tank BEFORE the marches?
> 
> Not a single Team Israel member has been able to show anything that says he was planting a bomb under the fence!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There were three IEDs (going from memory) planted BEFORE the marches as well.  The timing is irrelevant with respect to IDF response.  Suspicious activity ( documented by the IDF, digging holes under the fence, in the no-go zone after being warned not to approach the fence) in light of the context here is sufficient.
> 
> And you are deliberately focusing on this one farmer in an attempt to demonize Israel while entirely ignoring the context of the situation, which IS relevant.
Click to expand...


"going from memory"?? You are fucking joking aren't you?

The time IS relevant.... Considering I am speaking of one incident, it is relevant!

I am focusing on one farmer, correct, to demonise Israel? Well, if Israel is wrong how the fuck is that demonising?!?!


----------



## Tilly

Humanity said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Humanity said:
> 
> 
> 
> I have been presented with a lot of things Shusha, except the one single thing I have asked for. I call that deflection.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Not so, you have been provided with media reports with include IDF spokesman quotes concerning the incident in question.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Wrong, I have been presented with a whole bunch of Team Israel media reports relating to just about EVERY incident EXCEPT the one I am asking for!
> 
> The media report I posted stated that witnesses came forward and said that he was working his land. The IDF did not comment!
Click to expand...

Farming, at the fence, in the dead of night


----------



## Tilly

Humanity said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Humanity said:
> 
> 
> 
> I have been presented with a lot of things Shusha, except the one single thing I have asked for. I call that deflection.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Not so, you have been provided with media reports with include IDF spokesman quotes concerning the incident in question.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Wrong, I have been presented with a whole bunch of Team Israel media reports relating to just about EVERY incident EXCEPT the one I am asking for!
> 
> The media report I posted stated that witnesses came forward and said that he was working his land. The IDF did not comment!
Click to expand...

‘Witnesses’ said he was farming in the dead of night.
Oh that settles it then


----------



## Shusha

IEDs planted BEFORE the riots:

February 17, 2018 -- four injured
March 1, 2018
March 15, 2018

(Looks like my memory is acceptably sufficient to the task).


Oh look, and more during the riots:

April 9, 2018


Tell me how it is that Israeli soldiers are supposed to tell that someone who is at the fence and digging a hole under it is just planting melons with THIS AS CONTEXT?


----------



## RetiredGySgt

Humanity said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> Your strident denial that violence has occurred
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I would love for you to show me where I have denied any violence Shusha!
> 
> It's ok, I will wait!
Click to expand...

quote from a post in this thread where you condemned Pal violence.


----------



## Shusha

Shusha said:


> IEDs planted BEFORE the riots:
> 
> February 17, 2018 -- four injured
> March 1, 2018
> March 15, 2018
> 
> (Looks like my memory is acceptably sufficient to the task).
> 
> 
> Oh look, and more during the riots:
> 
> April 9, 2018
> 
> 
> Tell me how it is that Israeli soldiers are supposed to tell that someone who is at the fence and digging a hole under it is just planting melons with THIS AS CONTEXT?




Oh.  And it looks like I may have missed one.  Appears to have been one on Thursday, March 15 AND one on Saturday, March 17.


----------



## Billo_Really

RetiredGySgt said:


> THEY WERE NOT UNARMED. Every dead pal was wielding a weapon, slingshot Molotov cocktail or grenade. Do keep up RETARD.


Where is the weapon, you little Israeli kiss-ass?


----------



## RetiredGySgt

Billo_Really said:


> RetiredGySgt said:
> 
> 
> 
> THEY WERE NOT UNARMED. Every dead pal was wielding a weapon, slingshot Molotov cocktail or grenade. Do keep up RETARD.
> 
> 
> 
> Where is the weapon, you little Israeli kiss-ass?
Click to expand...

You ignore facts the dead Palestinians were all wielding a weapon when shot. The non lethal responses are to those that are unarmed and close on the border past the listed allowed point. All LEGAL MORAL and in self defense.


----------



## Billo_Really

Shusha said:


> I agree wholeheartedly that it is none of Israel's business what goes on in Gaza.  You have no idea how much I agree with you.  There is SO much not-Israel-business because Israel withdrew and essentially ceded the territory to the Arab Palestinians more than ten years ago.  Removed not only the occupation, but every single last Jew.  Gaza is the closest thing to an independent, self-governing State that the Palestinians have.  There are multiple borders with other sovereigns for economic trade and passage for people. There is NO border dispute with Israel or with Egypt.  There are ample resources and opportunities for development and economic growth -- agriculture, tourism, natural gas, industrialization agreements with Israel.  The sooner Gaza has full sovereignty and a thriving economy -- the better.
> 
> The question remains -- why does Gaza not have this already?!
> 
> Here's the answer:
> 
> Because the leader of the government in Gaza stated at the riot *cough cough* protest (paraphrased):
> 
> *"We are going to to break down the fence and march to Jerusalem tearing out the hearts of Jews along the way."*
> 
> And then dozens or hundreds of rioters with lethal weapons attempted to do just that.
> 
> THAT, my friend, is why Gaza is not a sovereign, independent State.
> 
> And it is absolutely UNCONSCIONABLE that people like you and Humanity refuse to condemn the violence of both word and deed.


Where is the link to that Gaza leaders statement?  And no, Gaza is not independent. If they were independent, they would be able to leave.  But they cannot.  If they were independent, they would have an airport.  They would have a water port.  They would not get shot at when they fish.  They would not get shot at when they farm.  If they were independent, they would be able to receive humanitarian aid from other countries.  

None of these things are true.  Gaza is a prison.


----------



## Billo_Really

Shusha said:


> Newsflash.  Israel is not occupying Gaza.  Hasn't for more than a decade.
> 
> What you are asking for, then, is an end to the blockade and an open border with Israel.  Not going to happen without a regular commitment by the government of Gaza to renounce violence and accept Israel as her neighbor.
> 
> Why won't they do that?


Why should they renounce violence when Israel won't?  Why doesn't Israel renounce violence?  Why does Israel shoot at their fishermen?  At their farmers?  Why can't Gazan's fish and farm in peace?  Why can't Gazan's leave Gaza?

If Israel didn't have "effective control" over 80% of Gaza, there wouldn't be all these protests.  Israel is making their daily lives a living hell.  A UN report states that the area may not be able to sustain life by 2020.  That's the blood on your hands.


----------



## Billo_Really

RetiredGySgt said:


> You ignore facts the dead Palestinians were all wielding a weapon when shot. The non lethal responses are to those that are unarmed and close on the border past the listed allowed point. All LEGAL MORAL and in self defense.


I'm sorry, the videos tell a different story.  The videos we've been seeing the past two weeks, say you're full of shit!  Those videos show unarmed protesters being shot in cold blood.


----------



## Billo_Really

Shusha said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> IEDs planted BEFORE the riots:
> 
> February 17, 2018 -- four injured
> March 1, 2018
> March 15, 2018
> 
> (Looks like my memory is acceptably sufficient to the task).
> 
> 
> Oh look, and more during the riots:
> 
> April 9, 2018
> 
> 
> Tell me how it is that Israeli soldiers are supposed to tell that someone who is at the fence and digging a hole under it is just planting melons with THIS AS CONTEXT?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oh.  And it looks like I may have missed one.  Appears to have been one on Thursday, March 15 AND one on Saturday, March 17.
Click to expand...

How can you believe anything from a source that posts garbage like this...

_"An Islamist terror group, Hamas violently took control of Gaza from Mahmoud Abbas’s Fatah in 2007, two years after Israel withdrew its military and civilian presence from the Strip. Israel and Egypt maintain a security blockade of Gaza. Israel says this is vital to prevent Hamas — which has fought three rounds of conflict against Israel since seizing Gaza, firing thousands of rockets into Israel and digging dozens of attack tunnels under the border — from importing weaponry."_​Hamas didn't take Gaza violently.  They won a fair and democratic election.  That's when Israel decided to blockade Gaza, in order to punish Gazan's for voting for Hamas.

BTW, Israel is the one who has broken every cease fire agreement with Hamas.


----------



## Shusha

RetiredGySgt said:


> You ignore facts the dead Palestinians were all wielding a weapon when shot. The non lethal responses are to those that are unarmed and close on the border past the listed allowed point. All LEGAL MORAL and in self defense.



Not to mention having been on the receiving end of multiple verbal warnings and non-lethal riot control measures, including warning shots in the air.


----------



## Shusha

Billo_Really said:


> How can you believe anything from a source that posts garbage like this...



Oh yay.  Another person who denies Gazan use of violence rather than condemning it.


----------



## P F Tinmore




----------



## Shusha

Oh please.  We've gone 50 pages and the best those siding with Gaza can come up with is the complete denial that Gazans use violence.  Its a bit ridiculous, actually.

This has the potential to be a really interesting conversation about humanitarian law and moral responsibilities and really tricky strategic issues on both sides.  But where are the worthy opponents?  Coyote?

Or, if anyone wants to have a higher level discussion, I volunteer as tribute to argue the Gazan side.


----------



## Indeependent

Humanity said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Humanity said:
> 
> 
> 
> I spoke of ONE farmer Shusha, not "farmers", you remember, the one who was shelled by a tank BEFORE the marches?
> 
> Not a single Team Israel member has been able to show anything that says he was planting a bomb under the fence!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There were three IEDs (going from memory) planted BEFORE the marches as well.  The timing is irrelevant with respect to IDF response.  Suspicious activity ( documented by the IDF, digging holes under the fence, in the no-go zone after being warned not to approach the fence) in light of the context here is sufficient.
> 
> And you are deliberately focusing on this one farmer in an attempt to demonize Israel while entirely ignoring the context of the situation, which IS relevant.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> "going from memory"?? You are fucking joking aren't you?
> 
> The time IS relevant.... Considering I am speaking of one incident, it is relevant!
> 
> I am focusing on one farmer, correct, to demonise Israel? Well, if Israel is wrong how the fuck is that demonising?!?!
Click to expand...

Prove a negative?
Prove you didn't give me a blowjob...
You're such an asshole.


----------



## Billo_Really

Shusha said:


> Oh yay.  Another person who denies Gazan use of violence rather than condemning it.


That's not what I said.  I said Hamas won a fair and democratic election.  Your source said they took power by force.  It was right after the election results were in, that Israel started the blockade to punish Gazan's for voting for Hamas.

_A list of things Palestinians can’t do under any circumstance:

No armed resistance
No unarmed protests
No marches for rights
No direct action
No international criminal court
No UNESCO
No boycotts
No divestment
No international solidarity

Just shut up and die or disappear. That is the only option Israel finds suitable._​


----------



## Billo_Really

Here's a bunch of Israeli's watching the killing of Palestinian's like it was a football game...


----------



## Shusha

Billo_Really said:


> _A list of things Palestinians can’t do under any circumstance:
> 
> No armed resistance
> No unarmed protests
> No marches for rights
> No direct action
> No international criminal court
> No UNESCO
> No boycotts
> No divestment
> No international solidarity
> 
> Just shut up and die or disappear. That is the only option Israel finds suitable._​



Gaza has to do ONE thing.  Just one.  Its the simplest thing in the world.  Just stop the violence towards Israel.


----------



## ILOVEISRAEL

P F Tinmore said:


>




I got Popcorn      My friends got Candy


----------



## rylah

P F Tinmore said:


>



My opinion about Ali Abunimah was that he had at least some level of integrity,
but it's totally shattered - he's sitting there with a straight face saying _*"Even the Israelis haven't alleged that weapons have been used by the protesters."  *_

Unbelievable how can one lie so desperately in face of clear evidence to the contrary.


----------



## Billo_Really

Shusha said:


> Gaza has to do ONE thing.  Just one.  Its the simplest thing in the world.  Just stop the violence towards Israel.


They did.  Israel wouldn't stop the violence towards them.


----------



## Billo_Really

rylah said:


> My opinion about Ali Abunimah was that he had at least some level of integrity,
> but it's totally shattered - he's sitting there with a straight face saying _*"Even the Israelis haven't alleged that weapons have been used by the protesters."  *_
> 
> Unbelievable how can one lie so desperately in face of clear evidence to the contrary.


The videos showed they didn't have weapons.


----------



## Billo_Really

Shusha said:


> Oh please.  We've gone 50 pages and the best those siding with Gaza can come up with is the complete denial that Gazans use violence.  Its a bit ridiculous, actually.
> 
> This has the potential to be a really interesting conversation about humanitarian law and moral responsibilities and really tricky strategic issues on both sides.  But where are the worthy opponents?  Coyote?
> 
> Or, if anyone wants to have a higher level discussion, I volunteer as tribute to argue the Gazan side.


Oh please.  What's moral about shooting someone while they fish?  You want them to stop the violence, yet you won't end the occupation.  I'm sorry dear, it's the occupation that is causing all the violence.  End the occupation and you will end the violence.


----------



## Billo_Really

Shusha said:


> Not to mention having been on the receiving end of multiple verbal warnings and non-lethal riot control measures, including warning shots in the air.


Burning a tire is not the same as firing a weapon, yet Israel treats it as such.  Why can't they burn tires?


----------



## Linkiloo

Billo_Really said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> Not to mention having been on the receiving end of multiple verbal warnings and non-lethal riot control measures, including warning shots in the air.
> 
> 
> 
> Burning a tire is not the same as firing a weapon, yet Israel treats it as such.  Why can't they burn tires?
Click to expand...

Israel doesn't treat it as such otherwise there wouldn't be 20 dead but 10,000


----------



## rylah

Billo_Really said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> My opinion about Ali Abunimah was that he had at least some level of integrity,
> but it's totally shattered - he's sitting there with a straight face saying _*"Even the Israelis haven't alleged that weapons have been used by the protesters."  *_
> 
> Unbelievable how can one lie so desperately in face of clear evidence to the contrary.
> 
> 
> 
> The videos showed they didn't have weapons.
Click to expand...

The video also didn't show Hamas leader open incitement to violence at the protest.

Day 1 of the protest - 2 men armed with rifles approach the boarder, take position and engage.
 - watch the video.


----------



## Coyote

Shusha said:


> Oh please.  We've gone 50 pages and the best those siding with Gaza can come up with is the complete denial that Gazans use violence.  Its a bit ridiculous, actually.
> 
> This has the potential to be a really interesting conversation about humanitarian law and moral responsibilities and really tricky strategic issues on both sides.  But where are the worthy opponents?  Coyote?
> 
> Or, if anyone wants to have a higher level discussion, I volunteer as tribute to argue the Gazan side.



I have not read the entire thread yet, it is long, so I will try to catch up 

There is no question Gaza uses violence in my mind.  There is also no question Israel has made some bad moves in my mind.  They shot and killed a clearly marked member of the press, and presented several different “justifications” that did not match observer statements.

But the real issue is what has led to this.  Gaza’s economy is in shambles, it’s people feel hopeless, so much so that many have been attempting extremely dangerous means to get themselves and their families out.  They are a people with no future, trapped in an area behind a blockade that has gone on for years and effectively destroyed them.  And it does not seem to have accomplished anything.


----------



## Coyote

Why not use teargas and smoke bombs instead of live ammo?


----------



## Coyote

Shusha said:


> IEDs planted BEFORE the riots:
> 
> February 17, 2018 -- four injured
> March 1, 2018
> March 15, 2018
> 
> (Looks like my memory is acceptably sufficient to the task).
> 
> 
> Oh look, and more during the riots:
> 
> April 9, 2018
> 
> 
> Tell me how it is that Israeli soldiers are supposed to tell that someone who is at the fence and digging a hole under it is just planting melons with THIS AS CONTEXT?


I have to agree...this isn’t exactly standard melon farming practice...


----------



## Coyote

RetiredGySgt said:


> Billo_Really said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> RetiredGySgt said:
> 
> 
> 
> THEY WERE NOT UNARMED. Every dead pal was wielding a weapon, slingshot Molotov cocktail or grenade. Do keep up RETARD.
> 
> 
> 
> Where is the weapon, you little Israeli kiss-ass?
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You ignore facts the dead Palestinians were all wielding a weapon when shot. The non lethal responses are to those that are unarmed and close on the border past the listed allowed point. All LEGAL MORAL and in self defense.
Click to expand...


The journalist that was shot had a weapon?


----------



## Coyote

Billo_Really said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> Newsflash.  Israel is not occupying Gaza.  Hasn't for more than a decade.
> 
> What you are asking for, then, is an end to the blockade and an open border with Israel.  Not going to happen without a regular commitment by the government of Gaza to renounce violence and accept Israel as her neighbor.
> 
> Why won't they do that?
> 
> 
> 
> Why should they renounce violence when Israel won't?  Why doesn't Israel renounce violence?  Why does Israel shoot at their fishermen?  At their farmers?  Why can't Gazan's fish and farm in peace?  Why can't Gazan's leave Gaza?
> 
> If Israel didn't have "effective control" over 80% of Gaza, there wouldn't be all these protests.  Israel is making their daily lives a living hell.  A UN report states that the area may not be able to sustain life by 2020.  That's the blood on your hands.
Click to expand...


Yes...why can’t they?  They are trapped, their children are trapped...no future and leaders who are worthless.


----------



## RoccoR

RE:  Israeli forces shoot unarmed protesters from across Gaza security fence, killing at least 15
※→  Billo_Really, _et al,_

I'm not sure if we are even looking at the current event in the same level of practical application and understanding.

*(BLUF*)   _It is the past criminal history of the Gazan People that painted themselves into the quarantine box.  If anything, the control measures should be ratcheted down event more..._

Border Protection and Border Management are ultimately a domestic matter; determined by the national processes.  International Law cannot force a nation to accept any immigrant number; except in special circumstances.  Issues such as illegal migration, asylum, integration of foreigners and immigrants, inter
- ethnicity/cultural relationships and citizenship are considered to be common areas of interest
for both combating terrorism and managing international migration.  The policies over these areas are unique to each country; with no real universal law of governance.  



Billo_Really said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> I agree wholeheartedly that it is none of Israel's business what goes on in Gaza.  You have no idea how much I agree with you.  There is SO much not-Israel-business because Israel withdrew and essentially ceded the territory to the Arab Palestinians more than ten years ago.  Removed not only the occupation but every single last Jew.  Gaza is the closest thing to an independent, self-governing State that the Palestinians have.  There are multiple borders with other sovereigns for economic trade and passage for people. There is NO border dispute with Israel or with Egypt.  There are ample resources and opportunities for development and economic growth -- agriculture, tourism, natural gas, industrialization agreements with Israel.  The sooner Gaza has full sovereignty and a thriving economy -- the better.
> 
> The question remains -- why does Gaza not have this already?!
> 
> Here's the answer:
> 
> Because the leader of the government in Gaza stated at the riot *cough cough* protest (paraphrased):
> 
> *"We are going to break down the fence and march to Jerusalem tearing out the hearts of Jews along the way."*
> 
> And then dozens or hundreds of rioters with lethal weapons attempted to do just that.
> 
> THAT, my friend, is why Gaza is not a sovereign, independent State.
> 
> And it is absolutely UNCONSCIONABLE that people like you and Humanity refuse to condemn the violence of both word and deed.
> 
> 
> 
> Where is the link to that Gaza leaders statement?  And no, Gaza is not independent. If they were independent, they would be able to leave.  But they cannot.  If they were independent, they would have an airport.  They would have a water port.  They would not get shot at when they fish.  They would not get shot at when they farm.  If they were independent, they would be able to receive humanitarian aid from other countries.
> 
> None of these things are true.  Gaza is a prison.
Click to expand...

*(COMMENT)*

First, the Gaza Strip is not a prison by any stretch of the imagination.  

As it pertains to the Israeli-Gaza Strip demarcation and borders segments, the relevant control policies for volatile area → rests on the legal or ethical relationship of trust between the Representative Government and the general population.   The context here is principally focused on the trust to maintain the safety of the citizenry and the security of sovereign integrity.

✪  To maintain international peace and security, ⇒ to take effective countermeasures for the prevention and removal of threats to the peace, and for the suppression of acts of aggression or other breaches of the peace, and to bring about by peaceful means, and in conformity with the principles of justice and international law, adjustment or settlement of international disputes or situations which might lead to a breach of the peace;  [The idea behind Article I]

✪  Israel follows the concept  "based on the principle of the sovereign equality" and its right to form domestic laws on imigration and border controls; as well as to protect its citizenry "from *the threat or use of force* against the territorial integrity or political independence."  [The idea behind Articles 2(1) and 2(4)]​
In the accomplishment of these vital duties to the state and its people, Israel has an open program that follows the Prevention, Protection and Prosecution terrorists from entering or remaining in the country; commonly called the 3P Laws.

The Gaza Strip is known to have a local government that openly sponsors terrorist organizations (ie  HAMAS and the PIJ...).  The citizens of the Gaza Strip freely installed a leadership that is directly involved in organizing, instigating, facilitating, participating in, financing, encouraging or tolerating terrorist activities.  The Gazan Leadership promotes the use of its territory as terrorist installations or training camps, or for the preparation or organization of terrorist acts intended to be committed against the State of Israel.  

Not to limit or enforce an aggressive border control and security countermeasures in the face of the demonstrated threat, would seem to be ignoring the problem.  By granting Arab Palestinians free border crossing privileges

Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## P F Tinmore

RoccoR said:


> RE:  Israeli forces shoot unarmed protesters from across Gaza security fence, killing at least 15
> ※→  Billo_Really, _et al,_
> 
> I'm not sure if we are even looking at the current event in the same level of practical application and understanding.
> 
> *(BLUF*)   _It is the past criminal history of the Gazan People that painted themselves into the quarantine box.  If anything, the control measures should be ratcheted down event more..._
> 
> Border Protection and Border Management are ultimately a domestic matter; determined by the national processes.  International Law cannot force a nation to accept any immigrant number; except in special circumstances.  Issues such as illegal migration, asylum, integration of foreigners and immigrants, inter
> - ethnicity/cultural relationships and citizenship are considered to be common areas of interest
> for both combating terrorism and managing international migration.  The policies over these areas are unique to each country; with no real universal law of governance.
> 
> 
> 
> Billo_Really said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> I agree wholeheartedly that it is none of Israel's business what goes on in Gaza.  You have no idea how much I agree with you.  There is SO much not-Israel-business because Israel withdrew and essentially ceded the territory to the Arab Palestinians more than ten years ago.  Removed not only the occupation but every single last Jew.  Gaza is the closest thing to an independent, self-governing State that the Palestinians have.  There are multiple borders with other sovereigns for economic trade and passage for people. There is NO border dispute with Israel or with Egypt.  There are ample resources and opportunities for development and economic growth -- agriculture, tourism, natural gas, industrialization agreements with Israel.  The sooner Gaza has full sovereignty and a thriving economy -- the better.
> 
> The question remains -- why does Gaza not have this already?!
> 
> Here's the answer:
> 
> Because the leader of the government in Gaza stated at the riot *cough cough* protest (paraphrased):
> 
> *"We are going to break down the fence and march to Jerusalem tearing out the hearts of Jews along the way."*
> 
> And then dozens or hundreds of rioters with lethal weapons attempted to do just that.
> 
> THAT, my friend, is why Gaza is not a sovereign, independent State.
> 
> And it is absolutely UNCONSCIONABLE that people like you and Humanity refuse to condemn the violence of both word and deed.
> 
> 
> 
> Where is the link to that Gaza leaders statement?  And no, Gaza is not independent. If they were independent, they would be able to leave.  But they cannot.  If they were independent, they would have an airport.  They would have a water port.  They would not get shot at when they fish.  They would not get shot at when they farm.  If they were independent, they would be able to receive humanitarian aid from other countries.
> 
> None of these things are true.  Gaza is a prison.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> *(COMMENT)*
> 
> First, the Gaza Strip is not a prison by any stretch of the imagination.
> 
> As it pertains to the Israeli-Gaza Strip demarcation and borders segments, the relevant control policies for volatile area → rests on the legal or ethical relationship of trust between the Representative Government and the general population.   The context here is principally focused on the trust to maintain the safety of the citizenry and the security of sovereign integrity.
> 
> ✪  To maintain international peace and security, ⇒ to take effective countermeasures for the prevention and removal of threats to the peace, and for the suppression of acts of aggression or other breaches of the peace, and to bring about by peaceful means, and in conformity with the principles of justice and international law, adjustment or settlement of international disputes or situations which might lead to a breach of the peace;  [The idea behind Article I]
> 
> ✪  Israel follows the concept  "based on the principle of the sovereign equality" and its right to form domestic laws on imigration and border controls; as well as to protect its citizenry "from *the threat or use of force* against the territorial integrity or political independence."  [The idea behind Articles 2(1) and 2(4)]​
> In the accomplishment of these vital duties to the state and its people, Israel has an open program that follows the Prevention, Protection and Prosecution terrorists from entering or remaining in the country; commonly called the 3P Laws.
> 
> The Gaza Strip is known to have a local government that openly sponsors terrorist organizations (ie  HAMAS and the PIJ...).  The citizens of the Gaza Strip freely installed a leadership that is directly involved in organizing, instigating, facilitating, participating in, financing, encouraging or tolerating terrorist activities.  The Gazan Leadership promotes the use of its territory as terrorist installations or training camps, or for the preparation or organization of terrorist acts intended to be committed against the State of Israel.
> 
> Not to limit or enforce an aggressive border control and security countermeasures in the face of the demonstrated threat, would seem to be ignoring the problem.  By granting Arab Palestinians free border crossing privileges
> 
> Most Respectfully,
> R
Click to expand...




RoccoR said:


> International Law cannot force a nation to accept any immigrant number; except in special circumstances. Issues such as illegal migration, asylum, integration of foreigners and immigrants, inter


According to international law (and reiterated in Resolution 181) all of the Palestinians who normally lived in the territory that became Israel are Israeli citizens. That would be 2/3 of the people who now live in Gaza. It is not about immigration.


----------



## Hollie

P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> 
> RE:  Israeli forces shoot unarmed protesters from across Gaza security fence, killing at least 15
> ※→  Billo_Really, _et al,_
> 
> I'm not sure if we are even looking at the current event in the same level of practical application and understanding.
> 
> *(BLUF*)   _It is the past criminal history of the Gazan People that painted themselves into the quarantine box.  If anything, the control measures should be ratcheted down event more..._
> 
> Border Protection and Border Management are ultimately a domestic matter; determined by the national processes.  International Law cannot force a nation to accept any immigrant number; except in special circumstances.  Issues such as illegal migration, asylum, integration of foreigners and immigrants, inter
> - ethnicity/cultural relationships and citizenship are considered to be common areas of interest
> for both combating terrorism and managing international migration.  The policies over these areas are unique to each country; with no real universal law of governance.
> 
> 
> 
> Billo_Really said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> I agree wholeheartedly that it is none of Israel's business what goes on in Gaza.  You have no idea how much I agree with you.  There is SO much not-Israel-business because Israel withdrew and essentially ceded the territory to the Arab Palestinians more than ten years ago.  Removed not only the occupation but every single last Jew.  Gaza is the closest thing to an independent, self-governing State that the Palestinians have.  There are multiple borders with other sovereigns for economic trade and passage for people. There is NO border dispute with Israel or with Egypt.  There are ample resources and opportunities for development and economic growth -- agriculture, tourism, natural gas, industrialization agreements with Israel.  The sooner Gaza has full sovereignty and a thriving economy -- the better.
> 
> The question remains -- why does Gaza not have this already?!
> 
> Here's the answer:
> 
> Because the leader of the government in Gaza stated at the riot *cough cough* protest (paraphrased):
> 
> *"We are going to break down the fence and march to Jerusalem tearing out the hearts of Jews along the way."*
> 
> And then dozens or hundreds of rioters with lethal weapons attempted to do just that.
> 
> THAT, my friend, is why Gaza is not a sovereign, independent State.
> 
> And it is absolutely UNCONSCIONABLE that people like you and Humanity refuse to condemn the violence of both word and deed.
> 
> 
> 
> Where is the link to that Gaza leaders statement?  And no, Gaza is not independent. If they were independent, they would be able to leave.  But they cannot.  If they were independent, they would have an airport.  They would have a water port.  They would not get shot at when they fish.  They would not get shot at when they farm.  If they were independent, they would be able to receive humanitarian aid from other countries.
> 
> None of these things are true.  Gaza is a prison.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> *(COMMENT)*
> 
> First, the Gaza Strip is not a prison by any stretch of the imagination.
> 
> As it pertains to the Israeli-Gaza Strip demarcation and borders segments, the relevant control policies for volatile area → rests on the legal or ethical relationship of trust between the Representative Government and the general population.   The context here is principally focused on the trust to maintain the safety of the citizenry and the security of sovereign integrity.
> 
> ✪  To maintain international peace and security, ⇒ to take effective countermeasures for the prevention and removal of threats to the peace, and for the suppression of acts of aggression or other breaches of the peace, and to bring about by peaceful means, and in conformity with the principles of justice and international law, adjustment or settlement of international disputes or situations which might lead to a breach of the peace;  [The idea behind Article I]
> 
> ✪  Israel follows the concept  "based on the principle of the sovereign equality" and its right to form domestic laws on imigration and border controls; as well as to protect its citizenry "from *the threat or use of force* against the territorial integrity or political independence."  [The idea behind Articles 2(1) and 2(4)]​
> In the accomplishment of these vital duties to the state and its people, Israel has an open program that follows the Prevention, Protection and Prosecution terrorists from entering or remaining in the country; commonly called the 3P Laws.
> 
> The Gaza Strip is known to have a local government that openly sponsors terrorist organizations (ie  HAMAS and the PIJ...).  The citizens of the Gaza Strip freely installed a leadership that is directly involved in organizing, instigating, facilitating, participating in, financing, encouraging or tolerating terrorist activities.  The Gazan Leadership promotes the use of its territory as terrorist installations or training camps, or for the preparation or organization of terrorist acts intended to be committed against the State of Israel.
> 
> Not to limit or enforce an aggressive border control and security countermeasures in the face of the demonstrated threat, would seem to be ignoring the problem.  By granting Arab Palestinians free border crossing privileges
> 
> Most Respectfully,
> R
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> 
> International Law cannot force a nation to accept any immigrant number; except in special circumstances. Issues such as illegal migration, asylum, integration of foreigners and immigrants, inter
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> According to international law (and reiterated in Resolution 181) all of the Palestinians who normally lived in the territory that became Israel are Israeli citizens. That would be 2/3 of the people who now live in Gaza. It is not about immigration.
Click to expand...


You're not versed in international law.

Resolution 181 was never implemented.


----------



## rylah

Coyote said:


> RetiredGySgt said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Billo_Really said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> RetiredGySgt said:
> 
> 
> 
> THEY WERE NOT UNARMED. Every dead pal was wielding a weapon, slingshot Molotov cocktail or grenade. Do keep up RETARD.
> 
> 
> 
> Where is the weapon, you little Israeli kiss-ass?
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You ignore facts the dead Palestinians were all wielding a weapon when shot. The non lethal responses are to those that are unarmed and close on the border past the listed allowed point. All LEGAL MORAL and in self defense.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The journalist that was shot had a weapon?
Click to expand...


flew a drone over our soldiers.


----------



## rylah

Coyote said:


> Billo_Really said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> Newsflash.  Israel is not occupying Gaza.  Hasn't for more than a decade.
> 
> What you are asking for, then, is an end to the blockade and an open border with Israel.  Not going to happen without a regular commitment by the government of Gaza to renounce violence and accept Israel as her neighbor.
> 
> Why won't they do that?
> 
> 
> 
> Why should they renounce violence when Israel won't?  Why doesn't Israel renounce violence?  Why does Israel shoot at their fishermen?  At their farmers?  Why can't Gazan's fish and farm in peace?  Why can't Gazan's leave Gaza?
> 
> If Israel didn't have "effective control" over 80% of Gaza, there wouldn't be all these protests.  Israel is making their daily lives a living hell.  A UN report states that the area may not be able to sustain life by 2020.  That's the blood on your hands.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yes...why can’t they?  They are trapped, their children are trapped...no future and leaders who are worthless.
Click to expand...


Then topple the leaders. But they have to do it themselves.
There're options on the table coming from the Arab world...Hamas chooses Iran.

Do Gazans themselves understand that...what choice was made on their behalf?


----------



## RoccoR

RE:  Israeli forces shoot unarmed protesters from across Gaza security fence, killing at least 15
※→  P F Tinmore, _et al,_

A couple of points here.

*BLUF: * You will be hard-pressed to find someone among the demonstrators/protesters that are actually RoR criteria qualified.  In fact, 95% of the demonstrators are merely descendants that are registered for services.≈

•  A/RES/181(II) 29 November 1947  •, was an Offer _(made on the part of the UN)_ and Acceptance _(Accepted by Jewish Agency but not by the Arab Higher Committee)_.

✪  A/RES/181(II) has been generally accepted as a "non-binding agreement.
✪  The Jewish Agency, in the acceptance, made no commitment to the Arab Higher Committee that rejected the recommendations.  The only agreement made was to the UN under the UN Palestine Commission (UNPC).
✪  On May 15th, the Provisional Israeli Government announce their independence and on May 17th (Press Release PAL/169) the UNPC announced Sine Die and that the "the resolution of last November 29 has been implemented."​


P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> 
> International Law cannot force a nation to accept any immigrant number; except in special circumstances. Issues such as illegal migration, asylum, integration of foreigners and immigrants, inter
> 
> 
> 
> According to international law (and reiterated in Resolution 181), all of the Palestinians who normally lived in the territory that became Israel are Israeli citizens. That would be 2/3 of the people who now live in Gaza. It is not about immigration.
Click to expand...

*(COMMENT)*
​The A/RES/181 (II) [Part I (_Future constitution and government of Palestine)_ --- Section "C" _(Declarations)_ --- Chapter (_Citizenship, international conventions and financial obligations)_ does not address the issue of refugees.

(NOTE:  A word search revealed that the word "refugee" does not appear anywhere in the text of the 29 November Resolution.  It should be noted that under Paragraph 9(5) of Steps Prepatory to Independence --- in relationship to elections to the Constituent Assembly which shall be conducted on democratic lines the Resolution States:  During the transitional period no Jew shall be permitted to establish residence in the area of the proposed Arab State, and no Arab shall be permitted to establish residence in the area of the proposed Jewish State, except by special leave of the Commission.

I assume that you meant to cite:

SECTION II Treaty of Peace with Turkey Signed at Lausanne, July 24, 1923.
NATIONALITY.
ARTICLE 30.

"⇒ Turkish subjects habitually resident in territory which in accordance with the provisions of the present Treaty is detached from Turkey will become ipsofacto, in the conditions laid down by the local law, nationals of the State to which such territory is transferred." | ⇒ This does not deal with refugees.​
•  A/RES/194 (III) 11 December 1948  •  Paragraph 11. _Resolves_ that the refugees wishing to return to their homes and live at peace with their neighbours should be permitted to do so at the earliest practicable date, and that compensation should be paid for the property of those choosing not to return and for loss of or damage to property which, under principles of international law or in equity, should be made good by the Governments or authorities responsible;

This Resolution, sometimes referred to as the Right of Return (RoR) Resolution, is questionable as to it being binding, since it was written before the four Armistice Agreements of 1949, and that in later times, the Treaties _(in particular the 1979 and 1994 treaties with Egypt and Jordan)_ remained silent on the issue _(without prejudice towards the Arab Palestinian)_.

What does contain that language is the Consolidated Eligibility and Registration Instructions (CERI) developed by the United Nations Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees in the Near East (UNRWA):  A type A1 Palestinian Refugee is:

Persons who meet UNRWA’s Palestine Refugee criteria:

These are persons whose normal place of residence was Palestine during the period 1 June 1946 to 15 May 1948, and who lost both home and means of livelihood as a result of the 1948 conflict. Palestine Refugees, and descendants of Palestine refugee males, including legally adopted children, are eligible to register for UNRWA services. The Agency accepts new applications from persons who wish to be registered as Palestine Refugees. Once they are registered with UNRWA, persons in this category are referred to as Registered Refugees or as Registered Palestine Refugees.​
Well, the Gaza Strip does NOT have a population of two-thirds at 70 years old.  Less than 3% of the Gaza Strip Population fall into that category.   Persons who do not meet UNRWA’s (Type 2 persons) Palestine Refugee criteria are registered for the purposes of receiving UNRWA services, these persons are not counted as part of the official Registered Refugee population of the Agency.

Interestingly enough,  the CIA Factbook on the Gaza Strip indicates that:

*Life expectancy at birth*:


total population: 74.2 years
male: 72.5 years
female: 75.9 years (2017 est.)​
*Age structure:*


0-14 years: 44.78% (male 412,644/female 391,275)
15-24 years: 21.25% (male 192,292/female 189,166)
25-54 years: 28.02% (male 246,518/female 256,543)
55-64 years: 3.4% (male 31,961/female 29,119)
65 years and over: 2.54% (male 23,729/female 21,936) (2017 est.)​
Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## Coyote

rylah said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> RetiredGySgt said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Billo_Really said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> RetiredGySgt said:
> 
> 
> 
> THEY WERE NOT UNARMED. Every dead pal was wielding a weapon, slingshot Molotov cocktail or grenade. Do keep up RETARD.
> 
> 
> 
> Where is the weapon, you little Israeli kiss-ass?
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You ignore facts the dead Palestinians were all wielding a weapon when shot. The non lethal responses are to those that are unarmed and close on the border past the listed allowed point. All LEGAL MORAL and in self defense.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The journalist that was shot had a weapon?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> flew a drone over our soldiers.
Click to expand...

Where is the supposed drone?  Evidence supporting the claim?


----------



## Shusha

Billo_Really said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> Gaza has to do ONE thing.  Just one.  Its the simplest thing in the world.  Just stop the violence towards Israel.
> 
> 
> 
> They did.  Israel wouldn't stop the violence towards them.
Click to expand...


When was that?


----------



## P F Tinmore

RoccoR said:


> RE:  Israeli forces shoot unarmed protesters from across Gaza security fence, killing at least 15
> ※→  P F Tinmore, _et al,_
> 
> A couple of points here.
> 
> *BLUF: * You will be hard-pressed to find someone among the demonstrators/protesters that are actually RoR criteria qualified.  In fact, 95% of the demonstrators are merely descendants that are registered for services.≈
> 
> •  A/RES/181(II) 29 November 1947  •, was an Offer _(made on the part of the UN)_ and Acceptance _(Accepted by Jewish Agency but not by the Arab Higher Committee)_.
> 
> ✪  A/RES/181(II) has been generally accepted as a "non-binding agreement.
> ✪  The Jewish Agency, in the acceptance, made no commitment to the Arab Higher Committee that rejected the recommendations.  The only agreement made was to the UN under the UN Palestine Commission (UNPC).
> ✪  On May 15th, the Provisional Israeli Government announce their independence and on May 17th (Press Release PAL/169) the UNPC announced Sine Die and that the "the resolution of last November 29 has been implemented."​
> 
> 
> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> 
> International Law cannot force a nation to accept any immigrant number; except in special circumstances. Issues such as illegal migration, asylum, integration of foreigners and immigrants, inter
> 
> 
> 
> According to international law (and reiterated in Resolution 181), all of the Palestinians who normally lived in the territory that became Israel are Israeli citizens. That would be 2/3 of the people who now live in Gaza. It is not about immigration.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> *(COMMENT)*
> ​The A/RES/181 (II) [Part I (_Future constitution and government of Palestine)_ --- Section "C" _(Declarations)_ --- Chapter (_Citizenship, international conventions and financial obligations)_ does not address the issue of refugees.
> 
> (NOTE:  A word search revealed that the word "refugee" does not appear anywhere in the text of the 29 November Resolution.  It should be noted that under Paragraph 9(5) of Steps Prepatory to Independence --- in relationship to elections to the Constituent Assembly which shall be conducted on democratic lines the Resolution States:  During the transitional period no Jew shall be permitted to establish residence in the area of the proposed Arab State, and no Arab shall be permitted to establish residence in the area of the proposed Jewish State, except by special leave of the Commission.
> 
> I assume that you meant to cite:
> 
> SECTION II Treaty of Peace with Turkey Signed at Lausanne, July 24, 1923.
> NATIONALITY.
> ARTICLE 30.
> 
> "⇒ Turkish subjects habitually resident in territory which in accordance with the provisions of the present Treaty is detached from Turkey will become ipsofacto, in the conditions laid down by the local law, nationals of the State to which such territory is transferred." | ⇒ This does not deal with refugees.​
> •  A/RES/194 (III) 11 December 1948  •  Paragraph 11. _Resolves_ that the refugees wishing to return to their homes and live at peace with their neighbours should be permitted to do so at the earliest practicable date, and that compensation should be paid for the property of those choosing not to return and for loss of or damage to property which, under principles of international law or in equity, should be made good by the Governments or authorities responsible;
> 
> This Resolution, sometimes referred to as the Right of Return (RoR) Resolution, is questionable as to it being binding, since it was written before the four Armistice Agreements of 1949, and that in later times, the Treaties _(in particular the 1979 and 1994 treaties with Egypt and Jordan)_ remained silent on the issue _(without prejudice towards the Arab Palestinian)_.
> 
> What does contain that language is the Consolidated Eligibility and Registration Instructions (CERI) developed by the United Nations Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees in the Near East (UNRWA):  A type A1 Palestinian Refugee is:
> 
> Persons who meet UNRWA’s Palestine Refugee criteria:
> 
> These are persons whose normal place of residence was Palestine during the period 1 June 1946 to 15 May 1948, and who lost both home and means of livelihood as a result of the 1948 conflict. Palestine Refugees, and descendants of Palestine refugee males, including legally adopted children, are eligible to register for UNRWA services. The Agency accepts new applications from persons who wish to be registered as Palestine Refugees. Once they are registered with UNRWA, persons in this category are referred to as Registered Refugees or as Registered Palestine Refugees.​
> Well, the Gaza Strip does NOT have a population of two-thirds at 70 years old.  Less than 3% of the Gaza Strip Population fall into that category.   Persons who do not meet UNRWA’s (Type 2 persons) Palestine Refugee criteria are registered for the purposes of receiving UNRWA services, these persons are not counted as part of the official Registered Refugee population of the Agency.
> 
> Interestingly enough,  the CIA Factbook on the Gaza Strip indicates that:
> 
> *Life expectancy at birth*:
> 
> 
> total population: 74.2 years
> male: 72.5 years
> female: 75.9 years (2017 est.)​
> *Age structure:*
> 
> 
> 0-14 years: 44.78% (male 412,644/female 391,275)
> 15-24 years: 21.25% (male 192,292/female 189,166)
> 25-54 years: 28.02% (male 246,518/female 256,543)
> 55-64 years: 3.4% (male 31,961/female 29,119)
> 65 years and over: 2.54% (male 23,729/female 21,936) (2017 est.)​
> Most Respectfully,
> R
Click to expand...

Nice piece of irrelevant verbosity.

In international law, the people stay with their land. In the rule of nationality and state succession, the people acquire citizenship in the state that succeeds a predecessor state. We see this in the Treaty of Lausanne, the Palestine Citizenship Order, and in Resolution 181. Even though Resolution 181 was non binding and never implemented, the UN frequently references already existing international law.


----------



## Shusha

Coyote said:


> But the real issue is what has led to this.  Gaza’s economy is in shambles, it’s people feel hopeless, so much so that many have been attempting extremely dangerous means to get themselves and their families out.  They are a people with no future, trapped in an area behind a blockade that has gone on for years and effectively destroyed them.  And it does not seem to have accomplished anything.



The blockade is not the cause of this (though obviously it contributes).  

And I disagree, the blockade has accomplished the security of Israel and greatly lessened the violence and the effects of violence.


----------



## P F Tinmore

RoccoR said:


> RE:  Israeli forces shoot unarmed protesters from across Gaza security fence, killing at least 15
> ※→  P F Tinmore, _et al,_
> 
> A couple of points here.
> 
> *BLUF: * You will be hard-pressed to find someone among the demonstrators/protesters that are actually RoR criteria qualified.  In fact, 95% of the demonstrators are merely descendants that are registered for services.≈
> 
> •  A/RES/181(II) 29 November 1947  •, was an Offer _(made on the part of the UN)_ and Acceptance _(Accepted by Jewish Agency but not by the Arab Higher Committee)_.
> 
> ✪  A/RES/181(II) has been generally accepted as a "non-binding agreement.
> ✪  The Jewish Agency, in the acceptance, made no commitment to the Arab Higher Committee that rejected the recommendations.  The only agreement made was to the UN under the UN Palestine Commission (UNPC).
> ✪  On May 15th, the Provisional Israeli Government announce their independence and on May 17th (Press Release PAL/169) the UNPC announced Sine Die and that the "the resolution of last November 29 has been implemented."​
> 
> 
> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> 
> International Law cannot force a nation to accept any immigrant number; except in special circumstances. Issues such as illegal migration, asylum, integration of foreigners and immigrants, inter
> 
> 
> 
> According to international law (and reiterated in Resolution 181), all of the Palestinians who normally lived in the territory that became Israel are Israeli citizens. That would be 2/3 of the people who now live in Gaza. It is not about immigration.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> *(COMMENT)*
> ​The A/RES/181 (II) [Part I (_Future constitution and government of Palestine)_ --- Section "C" _(Declarations)_ --- Chapter (_Citizenship, international conventions and financial obligations)_ does not address the issue of refugees.
> 
> (NOTE:  A word search revealed that the word "refugee" does not appear anywhere in the text of the 29 November Resolution.  It should be noted that under Paragraph 9(5) of Steps Prepatory to Independence --- in relationship to elections to the Constituent Assembly which shall be conducted on democratic lines the Resolution States:  During the transitional period no Jew shall be permitted to establish residence in the area of the proposed Arab State, and no Arab shall be permitted to establish residence in the area of the proposed Jewish State, except by special leave of the Commission.
> 
> I assume that you meant to cite:
> 
> SECTION II Treaty of Peace with Turkey Signed at Lausanne, July 24, 1923.
> NATIONALITY.
> ARTICLE 30.
> 
> "⇒ Turkish subjects habitually resident in territory which in accordance with the provisions of the present Treaty is detached from Turkey will become ipsofacto, in the conditions laid down by the local law, nationals of the State to which such territory is transferred." | ⇒ This does not deal with refugees.​
> •  A/RES/194 (III) 11 December 1948  •  Paragraph 11. _Resolves_ that the refugees wishing to return to their homes and live at peace with their neighbours should be permitted to do so at the earliest practicable date, and that compensation should be paid for the property of those choosing not to return and for loss of or damage to property which, under principles of international law or in equity, should be made good by the Governments or authorities responsible;
> 
> This Resolution, sometimes referred to as the Right of Return (RoR) Resolution, is questionable as to it being binding, since it was written before the four Armistice Agreements of 1949, and that in later times, the Treaties _(in particular the 1979 and 1994 treaties with Egypt and Jordan)_ remained silent on the issue _(without prejudice towards the Arab Palestinian)_.
> 
> What does contain that language is the Consolidated Eligibility and Registration Instructions (CERI) developed by the United Nations Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees in the Near East (UNRWA):  A type A1 Palestinian Refugee is:
> 
> Persons who meet UNRWA’s Palestine Refugee criteria:
> 
> These are persons whose normal place of residence was Palestine during the period 1 June 1946 to 15 May 1948, and who lost both home and means of livelihood as a result of the 1948 conflict. Palestine Refugees, and descendants of Palestine refugee males, including legally adopted children, are eligible to register for UNRWA services. The Agency accepts new applications from persons who wish to be registered as Palestine Refugees. Once they are registered with UNRWA, persons in this category are referred to as Registered Refugees or as Registered Palestine Refugees.​
> Well, the Gaza Strip does NOT have a population of two-thirds at 70 years old.  Less than 3% of the Gaza Strip Population fall into that category.   Persons who do not meet UNRWA’s (Type 2 persons) Palestine Refugee criteria are registered for the purposes of receiving UNRWA services, these persons are not counted as part of the official Registered Refugee population of the Agency.
> 
> Interestingly enough,  the CIA Factbook on the Gaza Strip indicates that:
> 
> *Life expectancy at birth*:
> 
> 
> total population: 74.2 years
> male: 72.5 years
> female: 75.9 years (2017 est.)​
> *Age structure:*
> 
> 
> 0-14 years: 44.78% (male 412,644/female 391,275)
> 15-24 years: 21.25% (male 192,292/female 189,166)
> 25-54 years: 28.02% (male 246,518/female 256,543)
> 55-64 years: 3.4% (male 31,961/female 29,119)
> 65 years and over: 2.54% (male 23,729/female 21,936) (2017 est.)​
> Most Respectfully,
> R
Click to expand...

The UNWRA does not define who is a refugee. It merely defines who is eligible for aid.


----------



## Shusha

Billo_Really said:


> Oh please.  What's moral about shooting someone while they fish?  You want them to stop the violence, yet you won't end the occupation.  I'm sorry dear, it's the occupation that is causing all the violence.  End the occupation and you will end the violence.



No, you are reversing cause and effect.  The blockade (there is no occupation) is a response to violence -- not the other way around.  When the leader of the government is going around publicly saying, "Let's tear out the hearts of the Israelis" it sure doesn't compel Israel to have an open border.  

And Israel is not shooting people while they fish.  Israel is preventing weapons smuggling and attacks.

Like this one just last month.

Israel has also met with Palestinians and is extending the permitted fishing zone for the spring fishing season despite the unrest in Gaza and the vicious incitement there.  

So knock off with the appeals to emotion and the lies.


----------



## Shusha

Coyote said:


> Why not use teargas and smoke bombs instead of live ammo?



They did.  Live fire was used only when a weapon was apparent and the rioter was within the exclusion zone of 300m.  OR when the rioter was apparently unarmed but was within the more strict exclusion zone of 100m and refused to comply with non-lethal demands to leave that area.

Why can't Gazans have an ACTUAL peaceful protest or at the least just stay away from the fence?


----------



## Shusha

Oh, and ANOTHER IED exploded at the fence yesterday.


----------



## Shusha

Billo_Really said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> Not to mention having been on the receiving end of multiple verbal warnings and non-lethal riot control measures, including warning shots in the air.
> 
> 
> 
> Burning a tire is not the same as firing a weapon, yet Israel treats it as such.  Why can't they burn tires?
Click to expand...


Besides the obvious harmful environmental and health effects, and the ensuing complaints of "tire shortages" -- it provides cover for rioters approaching the fence.  You know, to place bombs and such.  

What POSSIBLE reason is there to burn tires?  Its stupid on all levels.  Not what Gandhi would do.


----------



## Shusha

Coyote said:


> Yes...why can’t they?  They are trapped, their children are trapped...no future and leaders who are worthless.



There is a difference between being unable to leave Gaza and being able to enter Israel or Egypt.

Their leaders are worthless.  They should fix that, don't you think?

Question:  To what extent are Israel and Egypt responsible for the citizens of Gaza?  By that I do not mean humanitarian issues -- but sovereignty issues. 

Question:  What is the solution to the humanitarian problem there?  Should conditions there be forcibly changed?  How? Should someone force a takeover of government there?  Who?  Israel?  Egypt?  Sweden?  Who?

Or do we just let them voluntarily emigrate to third-party nations?


----------



## Shusha

Coyote said:


> Where is the supposed drone?  Evidence supporting the claim?



Please don't fall too deep into the "but it never happened" hole.  The individual in question was a known Hamas member, using a drone to fly over Israel's forces at the time of the shooting.  The CONTEXT is that Gazans and Palestinians have used false ID (press, medical personnel, etc) in order to disguise terrorist activity.


----------



## Shusha

P F Tinmore said:


> In international law, the people stay with their land. In the rule of nationality and state succession, the people acquire citizenship in the state that succeeds a predecessor state. We see this in the Treaty of Lausanne, the Palestine Citizenship Order, and in Resolution 181. Even though Resolution 181 was non binding and never implemented, the UN frequently references already existing international law.



By claiming they are all actually Israeli citizens you have effectively said that the entire territory is under Israeli sovereignty.  I'm pretty sure you don't want to go with that.

The Arab Palestinians and Gazans have effectively renounced (or refused) Israeli citizenship.  They supposedly want independence.  They can't have it both ways.  And neither can you.


----------



## Humanity

Shusha said:


> Billo_Really said:
> 
> 
> 
> Oh please.  What's moral about shooting someone while they fish?  You want them to stop the violence, yet you won't end the occupation.  I'm sorry dear, it's the occupation that is causing all the violence.  End the occupation and you will end the violence.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No, you are reversing cause and effect.  The blockade (there is no occupation) is a response to violence -- not the other way around.  When the leader of the government is going around publicly saying, "Let's tear out the hearts of the Israelis" it sure doesn't compel Israel to have an open border.
> 
> And Israel is not shooting people while they fish.  Israel is preventing weapons smuggling and attacks.
> 
> Like this one just last month.
> 
> Israel has also met with Palestinians and is extending the permitted fishing zone for the spring fishing season despite the unrest in Gaza and the vicious incitement there.
> 
> So knock off with the appeals to emotion and the lies.
Click to expand...


When a country blockades and controls 80% of another country that is occupation by any other name!


----------



## Humanity

Shusha said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> Where is the supposed drone?  Evidence supporting the claim?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Please don't fall too deep into the "but it never happened" hole.  The individual in question was a known Hamas member, using a drone to fly over Israel's forces at the time of the shooting.  The CONTEXT is that Gazans and Palestinians have used false ID (press, medical personnel, etc) in order to disguise terrorist activity.
Click to expand...


Hell Coyote.... What are you thinking?!?!?!

You surely don't expect any supporting evidence to any of their claims do you?

Just accept what the IDF says like a good boy and all is good with the world!


----------



## Hollie

Humanity said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Billo_Really said:
> 
> 
> 
> Oh please.  What's moral about shooting someone while they fish?  You want them to stop the violence, yet you won't end the occupation.  I'm sorry dear, it's the occupation that is causing all the violence.  End the occupation and you will end the violence.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No, you are reversing cause and effect.  The blockade (there is no occupation) is a response to violence -- not the other way around.  When the leader of the government is going around publicly saying, "Let's tear out the hearts of the Israelis" it sure doesn't compel Israel to have an open border.
> 
> And Israel is not shooting people while they fish.  Israel is preventing weapons smuggling and attacks.
> 
> Like this one just last month.
> 
> Israel has also met with Palestinians and is extending the permitted fishing zone for the spring fishing season despite the unrest in Gaza and the vicious incitement there.
> 
> So knock off with the appeals to emotion and the lies.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> When a country blockades and controls 80% of another country that is occupation by any other name!
Click to expand...


Gaza is not a country. Further, actions speak with the utmost clarity and in both words _and actions_, the various islamic terrorist franchises operating in Gaza'istan have made it clear that the Hamas Charter is not simply a document but an ideology that is still being pursued.

Make all the excuses you wish for islamic terrorism but Israel is required to defend itself every day.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot

Humanity said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Billo_Really said:
> 
> 
> 
> Oh please.  What's moral about shooting someone while they fish?  You want them to stop the violence, yet you won't end the occupation.  I'm sorry dear, it's the occupation that is causing all the violence.  End the occupation and you will end the violence.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No, you are reversing cause and effect.  The blockade (there is no occupation) is a response to violence -- not the other way around.  When the leader of the government is going around publicly saying, "Let's tear out the hearts of the Israelis" it sure doesn't compel Israel to have an open border.
> 
> And Israel is not shooting people while they fish.  Israel is preventing weapons smuggling and attacks.
> 
> Like this one just last month.
> 
> Israel has also met with Palestinians and is extending the permitted fishing zone for the spring fishing season despite the unrest in Gaza and the vicious incitement there.
> 
> So knock off with the appeals to emotion and the lies.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> When a country blockades and controls 80% of another country that is occupation by any other name!
Click to expand...


When a country allows rockets to be fired at civilians of another country that is war by any other name!


----------



## Coyote

Shusha said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> Where is the supposed drone?  Evidence supporting the claim?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Please don't fall too deep into the "but it never happened" hole.  The individual in question was a known Hamas member, using a drone to fly over Israel's forces at the time of the shooting.  The CONTEXT is that Gazans and Palestinians have used false ID (press, medical personnel, etc) in order to disguise terrorist activity.
Click to expand...

he is also a journalist and Israel has harassed journalists before.  We have conflicting accounts of what occurred so .I would like to know what evidence there is of a drone


----------



## Coyote

Israeli Defense Minister Liberman has said Murtaja was a terrorist but has to offer and substantiation of that claim right?  We DO know, however that he was a journalist and clearly marked.

He was shot in the stomach which is brutal and he was unarmed.


----------



## P F Tinmore

Coyote said:


> Israeli Defense Minister Liberman has said Murtaja was a terrorist but has to offer and substantiation of that claim right?  We DO know, howrver that he wad. Journalist and clearly marked.
> 
> He was shot in the stomach which is brutal and he was unarmed.


Everybody is a terrorist to Israel.

It is part of their terrorist propaganda campaign.


----------



## Shusha

Humanity said:


> When a country blockades and controls 80% of another country that is occupation by any other name!



I have no idea where you get that Israel controls 80% of Gaza.

But will you just try to hear me for a second.  

The government of Gaza is saying to its people, "Let's break down the fence, march through Israel ripping the hearts out of Israelis until the entire territory is under Arab rule again."  They are backing that up with acts of lethal, physical violence:  bombs and guns and knives.  They are murdering Jewish Israelis in their homes, in their streets, in their holy places.  They are smuggling in weapons -- larger, more target-capable weapons -- to be set against Israeli towns.

Can you just hear that for a moment?  How could you possibly believe that the SOLUTION to that problem is to have an open border?  Or let's say you do believe that it is the solution to the problem.  How are you going to get the Israelis and the Jewish people to accept that risk to their physical safety?  How are you going to convince them?



And yes, I understand that Gazans are being shot and killed.  And yes, I understand that some of them are civilians.  And, yes, I understand that this painful and horrible and should not have to happen.

But there are not 30,000 civilians and terrorists disguised as civilians massed at the Gaza border trying to get into Gaza.  There are no Israelis placing bombs on the fence line.  Or smuggling knives and grenades into Gaza to murder families in their homes.  There is no speech by the Israeli government saying that they will rip the hearts out of Arabs until Greater Israel takes over all of Gaza.  

Why can't the Gazans have an actual peaceful protest?  Where they sit at a safe distance from the fence.  Dance, have picnics, tell stories, make speeches of peace and brotherhood and co-operation.  Why can't SOMEONE on the Gaza side take down the swastika?  Why can't they bring candy to the fence instead of bombs?  If they did THAT there could be no possible way for anyone to side with Israel if she shoots them.


----------



## rylah

Coyote said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> RetiredGySgt said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Billo_Really said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> RetiredGySgt said:
> 
> 
> 
> THEY WERE NOT UNARMED. Every dead pal was wielding a weapon, slingshot Molotov cocktail or grenade. Do keep up RETARD.
> 
> 
> 
> Where is the weapon, you little Israeli kiss-ass?
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You ignore facts the dead Palestinians were all wielding a weapon when shot. The non lethal responses are to those that are unarmed and close on the border past the listed allowed point. All LEGAL MORAL and in self defense.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The journalist that was shot had a weapon?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> flew a drone over our soldiers.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Where is the supposed drone?  Evidence supporting the claim?
Click to expand...


Actually I looked for and couldn't find anything yet, except for a video of him laying in a medical tent.
From what I see he was wounded standing in profile, with his side or angled, this seems logical since he had a vest but had the bullet exit through the left side on the lower back.

If he was shot knowingly that there was nothing wrong done - it's wrong and stupid, must be dealt..
If he was shot by mistake with no intention many other facts have to be taken in account, and compared to similar cases worldwide, journalists take risks knowingly when they go into violent clashes.
If he operated a drone there's no argument for his case at all.
If he was shot on order for being an active Hamas member, and identified as such - regular military conduct against an enemy.


----------



## Shusha

Coyote said:


> he is also a journalist and Israel has harassed journalists before.


Palestinians have disguised terrorists as journalists.  Context matters.  That fact matters.  It CHANGES the way Israel views the sanctity of the Press vest.  If Palestinians do not respect that sanctity it is ludicrous to expect Israel to do so.



> We have conflicting accounts of what occurred so .I would like to know what evidence there is of a drone


The individual in question was known to use drones.  So, it fits.  Its not out of nowhere.  And since all evidence points to Israel being EXTREMELY precise in its targeting over the past few days, it stands to reason that this particular individual was targeted and not an incidental hit, a mistake or victim of a wide-spread lethal use of force.

The question to really ask, rather than, "Did this really happen?" is whether use of drones by journalists is cause for lethal use of force, when he is a known member of a military wing of what is deemed a terrorist organization.  (The individual, btw, was outside the 300m no-go zone at 350m.  And I think that is relevant since that appears to be unique.  Also, if I was to speculate, and this is just speculation, I'd imagine the stomach wound is a targeting error.  Probably intended to be non-lethal, incapacitating shot to the lower limbs.)



Edited to add:  I just read rylah 's post and I agree with that list of possibilities.  And probably a better way of discussing it than my speculation.


----------



## RoccoR

RE:  Israeli forces shoot unarmed protesters from across Gaza security fence, killing at least 15
※→  P F Tinmore, _et al,_

*BLUF:*  Nothing you have said, changes what I said in the least.  In fact, much of what you said is out temporal context. 



P F Tinmore said:


> Nice piece of irrelevant verbosity.
> 
> In international law, the people stay with their land. In the rule of nationality and state succession, the people acquire citizenship in the state that succeeds a predecessor state. We see this in the Treaty of Lausanne, the Palestine Citizenship Order, and in Resolution 181. Even though Resolution 181 was non binding and never implemented, the UN frequently references already existing international law.


*(COMMENT)*

I'm not sure the Treaty of Lausanne actually deals with successor state.  Why? (You might ask)  Because once a new state is declared, it becomes self-governing; ruled by domestic law under the principle of self-determination.

The Rule of the Successor State has no set international and customary law.   Currently, the relatively new Vienna Convention on Succession of States only came into force in late 1996.  It was not available during the duration of the Mandate Period; nor during the 1948 Arab-Israeli War.  It was NOT available in 1920 when the Allied Powers set the conditions and framework from which the Mandates and the Orders-in-Council flowed. 

At the time of the Mandate, there was such a thing as the Government of Palestine, but it was an entity and not a self-governing state; the government was in fact run by the UK _(with the assistance of the Jewish Agency, but NOT the Arab Higher Committee)_.  There was no successor state.  The Nationality _(ethnic based)_ and Citizenship _(residence based)_ were determined by the Mandatory Rule.

*NOTE:*  You will note that matters of nationality were only addressed in Paragraph 2 of the Annex to the Convention.​
And then, on thiese issues, UN A/RES/181 (II) does not even apply since the peace treaties are in place and the Arab Higher Committee formally reject the recommendations or any thing derived from it.

Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## Hollie

P F Tinmore said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> Israeli Defense Minister Liberman has said Murtaja was a terrorist but has to offer and substantiation of that claim right?  We DO know, howrver that he wad. Journalist and clearly marked.
> 
> He was shot in the stomach which is brutal and he was unarmed.
> 
> 
> 
> Everybody is a terrorist to Israel.
> 
> It is part of their terrorist propaganda campaign.
Click to expand...


Link?


----------



## RoccoR

RE:  Israeli forces shoot unarmed protesters from across Gaza security fence, killing at least 15
※→ Coyote, _et al,_

The HAMAS Drones have been around for more than five years. 

See:  •  *Hamas drone injects new element into Arab-Israeli conflict*  • 

   By David Zucchino and Ralph Vartabedian |  Jul 15, 2014

See:  •  *Hamas Publishes Photo of a Drone It Says It Built*  •
By ISABEL KERSHNER and PATRICK J. LYONS  |  JULY 14, 2014



Coyote said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> Where is the supposed drone?  Evidence supporting the claim?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Please don't fall too deep into the "but it never happened" hole.  The individual in question was a known Hamas member, using a drone to fly over Israel's forces at the time of the shooting.  The CONTEXT is that Gazans and Palestinians have used false ID (press, medical personnel, etc) in order to disguise terrorist activity.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> he is also a journalist and Israel has harassed journalists before.  We have conflicting accounts of what occurred so .I would like to know what evidence there is of a drone
Click to expand...

*(COMMENT)*




​
Now, you might ask! how credible is it.  I don't think it is much bigger than a toy.  But even a modified toy, complete with Blue Tooth _(cause everything is better with Blue Tooth)_.  In 2010, the Chinese had a one-inch cude camera, which could broadcast better than a Canadian football field _(Goal Post to Goal Post)_ decent BW video.  It could easily be used to view open fields of view along the border and fensesecurity barrier.

I suspect the 2014 picture of the HAMAS Drone has greatly improved and looks much more sophisticate. 

Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## P F Tinmore

RoccoR said:


> RE:  Israeli forces shoot unarmed protesters from across Gaza security fence, killing at least 15
> ※→  P F Tinmore, _et al,_
> 
> *BLUF:*  Nothing you have said, changes what I said in the least.  In fact, much of what you said is out temporal context.
> 
> 
> 
> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> Nice piece of irrelevant verbosity.
> 
> In international law, the people stay with their land. In the rule of nationality and state succession, the people acquire citizenship in the state that succeeds a predecessor state. We see this in the Treaty of Lausanne, the Palestine Citizenship Order, and in Resolution 181. Even though Resolution 181 was non binding and never implemented, the UN frequently references already existing international law.
> 
> 
> 
> *(COMMENT)*
> 
> I'm not sure the Treaty of Lausanne actually deals with successor state.  Why? (You might ask)  Because once a new state is declared, it becomes self-governing; ruled by domestic law under the principle of self-determination.
> 
> The Rule of the Successor State has no set international and customary law.   Currently, the relatively new Vienna Convention on Succession of States only came into force in late 1996.  It was not available during the duration of the Mandate Period; nor during the 1948 Arab-Israeli War.  It was NOT available in 1920 when the Allied Powers set the conditions and framework from which the Mandates and the Orders-in-Council flowed.
> 
> At the time of the Mandate, there was such a thing as the Government of Palestine, but it was an entity and not a self-governing state; the government was in fact run by the UK _(with the assistance of the Jewish Agency, but NOT the Arab Higher Committee)_.  There was no successor state.  The Nationality _(ethnic based)_ and Citizenship _(residence based)_ were determined by the Mandatory Rule.
> 
> *NOTE:*  You will note that matters of nationality were only addressed in Paragraph 2 of the Annex to the Convention.​
> And then, on thiese issues, UN A/RES/181 (II) does not even apply since the peace treaties are in place and the Arab Higher Committee formally reject the recommendations or any thing derived from it.
> 
> Most Respectfully,
> R
Click to expand...

How does that refute anything I said?


----------



## P F Tinmore




----------



## Toddsterpatriot

P F Tinmore said:


>



_Apartheid and genocide.........Palestinians will soon be the majority.
_
Wow, that's some weak ass genocide!!

It's always interesting to see gay liberals defending the people who would happily throw them from a rooftop.


----------



## Billo_Really

Linkiloo said:


> Israel doesn't treat it as such otherwise there wouldn't be 20 dead but 10,000


I saw Palestinians just standing there and getting shot.

Israel is evil.


----------



## Billo_Really

rylah said:


> The video also didn't show Hamas leader open incitement to violence at the protest.
> 
> Day 1 of the protest - 2 men armed with rifles approach the boarder, take position and engage.
> - watch the video.


Okay, that was a little over the top.


----------



## Billo_Really

RetiredGySgt said:


> You ignore facts the dead Palestinians were all wielding a weapon when shot. The non lethal responses are to those that are unarmed and close on the border past the listed allowed point. All LEGAL MORAL and in self defense.


No they were not all wielding weapons.  All the videos I've seen they were unarmed protesters getting shot for the same reason a dog licks' its balls.


----------



## Billo_Really

Coyote said:


> Yes...why can’t they?  They are trapped, their children are trapped...no future and leaders who are worthless.


They're worthless by Israeli design.  The biggest reason Hamas is hated is because they won't kiss Israel's ass, like Fatah does.  And Israeli's can't sleep at night unless someone somewhere is kissing their ass.  Which is the one thing, they will never get from me.


----------



## Billo_Really

RoccoR said:


> RE:  Israeli forces shoot unarmed protesters from across Gaza security fence, killing at least 15
> ※→  Billo_Really, _et al,_
> 
> I'm not sure if we are even looking at the current event in the same level of practical application and understanding.
> 
> *(BLUF*)   _It is the past criminal history of the Gazan People that painted themselves into the quarantine box.  If anything, the control measures should be ratcheted down event more..._
> 
> Border Protection and Border Management are ultimately a domestic matter; determined by the national processes.  International Law cannot force a nation to accept any immigrant number; except in special circumstances.  Issues such as illegal migration, asylum, integration of foreigners and immigrants, inter
> - ethnicity/cultural relationships and citizenship are considered to be common areas of interest
> for both combating terrorism and managing international migration.  The policies over these areas are unique to each country; with no real universal law of governance.
> 
> 
> 
> Billo_Really said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> I agree wholeheartedly that it is none of Israel's business what goes on in Gaza.  You have no idea how much I agree with you.  There is SO much not-Israel-business because Israel withdrew and essentially ceded the territory to the Arab Palestinians more than ten years ago.  Removed not only the occupation but every single last Jew.  Gaza is the closest thing to an independent, self-governing State that the Palestinians have.  There are multiple borders with other sovereigns for economic trade and passage for people. There is NO border dispute with Israel or with Egypt.  There are ample resources and opportunities for development and economic growth -- agriculture, tourism, natural gas, industrialization agreements with Israel.  The sooner Gaza has full sovereignty and a thriving economy -- the better.
> 
> The question remains -- why does Gaza not have this already?!
> 
> Here's the answer:
> 
> Because the leader of the government in Gaza stated at the riot *cough cough* protest (paraphrased):
> 
> *"We are going to break down the fence and march to Jerusalem tearing out the hearts of Jews along the way."*
> 
> And then dozens or hundreds of rioters with lethal weapons attempted to do just that.
> 
> THAT, my friend, is why Gaza is not a sovereign, independent State.
> 
> And it is absolutely UNCONSCIONABLE that people like you and Humanity refuse to condemn the violence of both word and deed.
> 
> 
> 
> Where is the link to that Gaza leaders statement?  And no, Gaza is not independent. If they were independent, they would be able to leave.  But they cannot.  If they were independent, they would have an airport.  They would have a water port.  They would not get shot at when they fish.  They would not get shot at when they farm.  If they were independent, they would be able to receive humanitarian aid from other countries.
> 
> None of these things are true.  Gaza is a prison.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> *(COMMENT)*
> 
> First, the Gaza Strip is not a prison by any stretch of the imagination.
> 
> As it pertains to the Israeli-Gaza Strip demarcation and borders segments, the relevant control policies for volatile area → rests on the legal or ethical relationship of trust between the Representative Government and the general population.   The context here is principally focused on the trust to maintain the safety of the citizenry and the security of sovereign integrity.
> 
> ✪  To maintain international peace and security, ⇒ to take effective countermeasures for the prevention and removal of threats to the peace, and for the suppression of acts of aggression or other breaches of the peace, and to bring about by peaceful means, and in conformity with the principles of justice and international law, adjustment or settlement of international disputes or situations which might lead to a breach of the peace;  [The idea behind Article I]
> 
> ✪  Israel follows the concept  "based on the principle of the sovereign equality" and its right to form domestic laws on imigration and border controls; as well as to protect its citizenry "from *the threat or use of force* against the territorial integrity or political independence."  [The idea behind Articles 2(1) and 2(4)]​
> In the accomplishment of these vital duties to the state and its people, Israel has an open program that follows the Prevention, Protection and Prosecution terrorists from entering or remaining in the country; commonly called the 3P Laws.
> 
> The Gaza Strip is known to have a local government that openly sponsors terrorist organizations (ie  HAMAS and the PIJ...).  The citizens of the Gaza Strip freely installed a leadership that is directly involved in organizing, instigating, facilitating, participating in, financing, encouraging or tolerating terrorist activities.  The Gazan Leadership promotes the use of its territory as terrorist installations or training camps, or for the preparation or organization of terrorist acts intended to be committed against the State of Israel.
> 
> Not to limit or enforce an aggressive border control and security countermeasures in the face of the demonstrated threat, would seem to be ignoring the problem.  By granting Arab Palestinians free border crossing privileges
> 
> Most Respectfully,
> R
Click to expand...

Spare me your data dump.  Gaza is a prison.  No one can leave.  If Gaza wasn't a prison, then humanitarian aid vessels would be in their ports.  

Israel started the siege to punish Gazans for voting for Hamas.  And Israel doesn't like Hamas, because they refuse to be Israels bitch, like Fatah does.

This is collective punishment on the entire population of Gaza.  And that, my friend, is a war crime.


----------



## P F Tinmore

Hollie said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> Israeli Defense Minister Liberman has said Murtaja was a terrorist but has to offer and substantiation of that claim right?  We DO know, howrver that he wad. Journalist and clearly marked.
> 
> He was shot in the stomach which is brutal and he was unarmed.
> 
> 
> 
> Everybody is a terrorist to Israel.
> 
> It is part of their terrorist propaganda campaign.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Link?
Click to expand...

*Israeli government effort to paint slain journalist Yaser Murtaja as terrorist is failing*

Last Friday, an Israeli sniper killed Yaser Murtaja, a 30-year-old Palestinian journalist, one of six journalists targeted that day. Yesterday the Israeli Prime Minister‘s office and Defense Minister sought to smear him as a terrorist.

The most important aspect of the Israeli effort is that it is failing. No one is taking Lieberman’s smear seriously. International media is rallying to Yaser Murtaja’s side: notably the Washington Post, the Guardian– “Gaza photographer’s last video captures brutal crackdown on protests”– and the New Yorker, whose piece on Murtaja’s death yesterday, titled, “Watching a Fellow-Journalist Die in Gaza,” didn’t even lower itself to quote the Israeli hasbara.

Israeli government effort to paint slain journalist Yaser Murtaja as terrorist is failing


----------



## Billo_Really

rylah said:


> flew a drone over our soldiers.


The drones journalists use are not weapons.


----------



## Billo_Really

rylah said:


> Then topple the leaders. But they have to do it themselves.
> There're options on the table coming from the Arab world...Hamas chooses Iran.
> 
> Do Gazans themselves understand that...what choice was made on their behalf?


They don't have to topple anything.  Its none of Israel's goddamn business who Gazans choose as their leaders.


----------



## Billo_Really

Shusha said:


> When was that?


2008.  The ceasefire lasted 4 months.  It ended when Israel launched a commando raid into Gaza to kill some Hamas members.


----------



## rylah

Billo_Really said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> Then topple the leaders. But they have to do it themselves.
> There're options on the table coming from the Arab world...Hamas chooses Iran.
> 
> Do Gazans themselves understand that...what choice was made on their behalf?
> 
> 
> 
> They don't have to topple anything.  Its none of Israel's goddamn business who Gazans choose as their leaders.
Click to expand...


When did Hamas ever organize elections in Gaza?


----------



## P F Tinmore

rylah said:


> Billo_Really said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> Then topple the leaders. But they have to do it themselves.
> There're options on the table coming from the Arab world...Hamas chooses Iran.
> 
> Do Gazans themselves understand that...what choice was made on their behalf?
> 
> 
> 
> They don't have to topple anything.  Its none of Israel's goddamn business who Gazans choose as their leaders.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> When did Hamas ever organize elections in Gaza?
Click to expand...

Elections are initiated by constitutional process that Abbas is blocking.


----------



## Shusha

Billo_Really said:


> Linkiloo said:
> 
> 
> 
> Israel doesn't treat it as such otherwise there wouldn't be 20 dead but 10,000
> 
> 
> 
> I saw Palestinians just standing there and getting shot.
Click to expand...



You saw Palestinians standing WHERE and getting shot?  After they were asked how many times and in how many ways to remove themselves?  

If someone comes to your door and you ask them to leave and they don't respect your wishes and leave are they "just standing there"?


----------



## rylah

Billo_Really said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> flew a drone over our soldiers.
> 
> 
> 
> The drones journalists use are not weapons.
Click to expand...


I don't care what You might imagine sitting thousands of miles away - fly a drone over our soldiers and expect consequence.

If one is a Hamas operative...well, I don't care if he runs in press vest or a bunny suit.


----------



## Hollie

Billo_Really said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yes...why can’t they?  They are trapped, their children are trapped...no future and leaders who are worthless.
> 
> 
> 
> They're worthless by Israeli design.  The biggest reason Hamas is hated is because they won't kiss Israel's ass, like Fatah does.  And Israeli's can't sleep at night unless someone somewhere is kissing their ass.  Which is the one thing, they will never get from me.
Click to expand...


You phony tough guys are a hoot.


----------



## ForeverYoung436

P F Tinmore said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Billo_Really said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> Then topple the leaders. But they have to do it themselves.
> There're options on the table coming from the Arab world...Hamas chooses Iran.
> 
> Do Gazans themselves understand that...what choice was made on their behalf?
> 
> 
> 
> They don't have to topple anything.  Its none of Israel's goddamn business who Gazans choose as their leaders.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> When did Hamas ever organize elections in Gaza?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Elections are initiated by constitutional process that Abbas is blocking.
Click to expand...


Why does Hamas need Abbas' approval?  Hamas can let the Gazans organize 1 or 2 more political parties, just in Gaza alone.  There can then be an election in Gaza alone.  What's wrong with that?


----------



## rylah

Billo_Really said:


> Linkiloo said:
> 
> 
> 
> Israel doesn't treat it as such otherwise there wouldn't be 20 dead but 10,000
> 
> 
> 
> I saw Palestinians just standing there and getting shot.
> 
> Israel is evil.
Click to expand...


I saw Gazans practice fake injuries just like in football practice...
I also saw a big Swastika waved at Israel.

Imagine our mutual sympathy.


----------



## Shusha

Billo_Really said:


> RetiredGySgt said:
> 
> 
> 
> You ignore facts the dead Palestinians were all wielding a weapon when shot. The non lethal responses are to those that are unarmed and close on the border past the listed allowed point. All LEGAL MORAL and in self defense.
> 
> 
> 
> No they were not all wielding weapons.  All the videos I've seen they were unarmed protesters getting shot for the same reason a dog licks' its balls.
Click to expand...


Well, no.  They were shot because they violated a buffer zone, refused to comply with requests/demands/non-lethal force in the context of the repeated use of lethal force BY THEM on Israel.


----------



## Billo_Really

Shusha said:


> No, you are reversing cause and effect.  The blockade (there is no occupation) is a response to violence -- not the other way around.  When the leader of the government is going around publicly saying, "Let's tear out the hearts of the Israelis" it sure doesn't compel Israel to have an open border.
> 
> And Israel is not shooting people while they fish.  Israel is preventing weapons smuggling and attacks.
> 
> Like this one just last month.
> 
> Israel has also met with Palestinians and is extending the permitted fishing zone for the spring fishing season despite the unrest in Gaza and the vicious incitement there.
> 
> So knock off with the appeals to emotion and the lies.


The blockade started right after the election in 2006.  Israel didn't like the results, so they blockaded Gaza to punish Gazans for not voting for one of Israels little bitches.

Yes, they are shooting at people fishing.


Here's some more of what you say doesn't happen.


Here they are attacking international observers.


----------



## Hollie

Billo_Really said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> Then topple the leaders. But they have to do it themselves.
> There're options on the table coming from the Arab world...Hamas chooses Iran.
> 
> Do Gazans themselves understand that...what choice was made on their behalf?
> 
> 
> 
> They don't have to topple anything.  Its none of Israel's goddamn business who Gazans choose as their leaders.
Click to expand...


That’s true. It is, however, Israel’s business when the Hamas Dearh Cultists choose to encourage their minions to breach the Israeli border and attempt to kill and maim Israeli citizens.


----------



## Shusha

Billo_Really said:


> Spare me your data dump.  Gaza is a prison.  No one can leave.



Please.  You DO realize that in theory I can not leave Canada, right?  My ability to leave Canada depends on another sovereign State's willingness to receive me.  International law states that I must not be prevented from leaving (and returning) to my country (as controlled by my country) but it also is clear that no country is compelled to receive me (as controlled by other countries). 

The conditions which ease the passage of citizens from one nation to another are those of peace.


----------



## Hollie

Billo_Really said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> No, you are reversing cause and effect.  The blockade (there is no occupation) is a response to violence -- not the other way around.  When the leader of the government is going around publicly saying, "Let's tear out the hearts of the Israelis" it sure doesn't compel Israel to have an open border.
> 
> And Israel is not shooting people while they fish.  Israel is preventing weapons smuggling and attacks.
> 
> Like this one just last month.
> 
> Israel has also met with Palestinians and is extending the permitted fishing zone for the spring fishing season despite the unrest in Gaza and the vicious incitement there.
> 
> So knock off with the appeals to emotion and the lies.
> 
> 
> 
> The blockade started right after the election in 2006.  Israel didn't like the results, so they blockaded Gaza to punish Gazans for not voting for one of Israels little bitches.
> 
> Yes, they are shooting at people fishing.
> 
> 
> Here's some more of what you say doesn't happen.
> 
> 
> Here they are attacking international observers.
Click to expand...


The problem with these edited videoes is that only selected portions are presented. There’s no indication of what happened before or after the edit.

Pallywood Studios has a reputation of being rather agenda driven with their silly, staged confrontations.


----------



## Billo_Really

Hollie said:


> Gaza is not a country. Further, actions speak with the utmost clarity and in both words _and actions_, the various islamic terrorist franchises operating in Gaza'istan have made it clear that the Hamas Charter is not simply a document but an ideology that is still being pursued.
> 
> Make all the excuses you wish for islamic terrorism but Israel is required to defend itself every day.


They amended the Charter.

Live in the now!


----------



## Shusha

Billo_Really said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> When was that?
> 
> 
> 
> 2008.  The ceasefire lasted 4 months.  It ended when Israel launched a commando raid into Gaza to kill some Hamas members.
Click to expand...


So you agree, then, that there has not been a cessation of hostilities by Gaza for TEN YEARS?

Also, that was June, 2008 yes?  When did the rocket fire cease in June of that year?


----------



## Billo_Really

Toddsterpatriot said:


> When a country allows rockets to be fired at civilians of another country that is war by any other name!


They can't aim those rockets.  So they're not fired at anyone.  They just shoot it into the sky, then go home and turn on CNN to see where it landed.


----------



## Billo_Really

rylah said:


> Actually I looked for and couldn't find anything yet, except for a video of him laying in a medical tent.
> From what I see he was wounded standing in profile, with his side or angled, this seems logical since he had a vest but had the bullet exit through the left side on the lower back.
> 
> If he was shot knowingly that there was nothing wrong done - it's wrong and stupid, must be dealt..
> If he was shot by mistake with no intention many other facts have to be taken in account, and compared to similar cases worldwide, journalists take risks knowingly when they go into violent clashes.
> If he operated a drone there's no argument for his case at all.
> If he was shot on order for being an active Hamas member, and identified as such - regular military conduct against an enemy.


He was wearing clothing that clearly marked him as a journalist.  Israel targets the media, because they don't want the world seeing what they are doing.


----------



## rylah

P F Tinmore said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Billo_Really said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> Then topple the leaders. But they have to do it themselves.
> There're options on the table coming from the Arab world...Hamas chooses Iran.
> 
> Do Gazans themselves understand that...what choice was made on their behalf?
> 
> 
> 
> They don't have to topple anything.  Its none of Israel's goddamn business who Gazans choose as their leaders.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> When did Hamas ever organize elections in Gaza?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Elections are initiated by constitutional process that Abbas is blocking.
Click to expand...


Are You trying to convince me that Islamists care about constitution?

Hamas and constitution?
Just a month ago they attempted to murder Abass' minister on a visit to Gaza,

so pull Your own leg with this pretentious bs.


----------



## Billo_Really

rylah said:


> When did Hamas ever organize elections in Gaza?


I don't think they organized it, but they did win in a fair election.


----------



## rylah

Billo_Really said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> When did Hamas ever organize elections in Gaza?
> 
> 
> 
> I don't think they organized it, but they did win in a fair election.
Click to expand...


How many years ago?
I mean can they even talk about other candidates in Gaza?
Is there anything other than "destroy Israel , kill Israelis" on their political menu?


----------



## Shusha

Billo_Really said:


> They amended the Charter.
> 
> Live in the now!



They amended the charter?  Cool.  Where does it say in the charter that ripping out the hearts of Israelis is part of the plan?!

Live in the now.


----------



## Billo_Really

Shusha said:


> You saw Palestinians standing WHERE and getting shot?  After they were asked how many times and in how many ways to remove themselves?
> 
> If someone comes to your door and you ask them to leave and they don't respect your wishes and leave are they "just standing there"?


Wrong analogy.  It's more like, you are standing in your front yard and some asshole from across the street walks over and tells you to move off your lawn.  And when you don't move, he shoots you.


----------



## Billo_Really

rylah said:


> I don't care what You might imagine sitting thousands of miles away - fly a drone over our soldiers and expect consequence.
> 
> If one is a Hamas operative...well, I don't care if he runs in press vest or a bunny suit.


If I had my way, there would be Tomahawk missiles would be flying over your soldiers.


----------



## Shusha

Billo_Really said:


> Yes, they are shooting at people fishing.



They are requiring that people who are fishing respect the blockade because there are plenty of people who are NOT fishing but are smuggling weapons.  Stop smuggling weapons.  Fish away.

Why don't you require the Gazans to stop smuggling weapons so their own people can fish?


----------



## Billo_Really

Hollie said:


> You phony tough guys are a hoot.


So you're saying one day I will kiss Israeli ass?


----------



## Shusha

Billo_Really said:


> They can't aim those rockets.  So they're not fired at anyone.  They just shoot it into the sky, then go home and turn on CNN to see where it landed.



Dude!  Indiscriminate launching of weapons is a war crime.  Sheesh.  Do better.


----------



## Billo_Really

rylah said:


> I saw Gazans practice fake injuries just like in football practice...
> I also saw a big Swastika waved at Israel.
> 
> Imagine our mutual sympathy.


Interesting you brought up Swastika's.  Because you have to go all the way back to Nazi Germany to find an entire population of people treated worse than the Palestinian's.


----------



## rylah

Billo_Really said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> Actually I looked for and couldn't find anything yet, except for a video of him laying in a medical tent.
> From what I see he was wounded standing in profile, with his side or angled, this seems logical since he had a vest but had the bullet exit through the left side on the lower back.
> 
> If he was shot knowingly that there was nothing wrong done - it's wrong and stupid, must be dealt..
> If he was shot by mistake with no intention many other facts have to be taken in account, and compared to similar cases worldwide, journalists take risks knowingly when they go into violent clashes.
> If he operated a drone there's no argument for his case at all.
> If he was shot on order for being an active Hamas member, and identified as such - regular military conduct against an enemy.
> 
> 
> 
> He was wearing clothing that clearly marked him as a journalist.  Israel targets the media, because they don't want the world seeing what they are doing.
Click to expand...


Do You a have a video of the incident?
Because I do have plenty of context on my side.
Their leaders clearly stated that the protest is a prelude to infiltration and murder.

Israel is not doing anything that another country would not - defend it's border and civilians.So stop being a hypocrite, if this was coming to Your village You'd call the police, SWAT and the military and that would be justified....don't tell me fairytales.


----------



## Billo_Really

Shusha said:


> Well, no.  They were shot because they violated a buffer zone, refused to comply with requests/demands/non-lethal force in the context of the repeated use of lethal force BY THEM on Israel.


The buffer zone, is in Gaza, not Israel.  Israel is not sovereign in Gaza.  Therefore, they have no legal right to enforce a buffer zone on someone else's land.


----------



## Shusha

Billo_Really said:


> Interesting you brought up Swastika's.  Because you have to go all the way back to Nazi Germany to find an entire population of people treated worse than the Palestinian's.



Um.

Syria.  Rwanda.  Rohingya.  Kurds.  Yemenites.  Yazdhi.


----------



## Billo_Really

Hollie said:


> That’s true. It is, however, Israel’s business when the Hamas Dearh Cultists choose to encourage their minions to breach the Israeli border and attempt to kill and maim Israeli citizens.


Well, at least it takes their minds off the price of Milky.


----------



## Hollie

Billo_Really said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> Gaza is not a country. Further, actions speak with the utmost clarity and in both words _and actions_, the various islamic terrorist franchises operating in Gaza'istan have made it clear that the Hamas Charter is not simply a document but an ideology that is still being pursued.
> 
> Make all the excuses you wish for islamic terrorism but Israel is required to defend itself every day.
> 
> 
> 
> They amended the Charter.
> 
> Live in the now!
Click to expand...


No, they amended nothing. 

You should live in the now. What is happening on the Israeli border?

What are the calls from Hamas to its minions?

IDF Says It Thwarted Hamas Effort to Breach Border Fence, 'Carry Out Acts of Terrorism'


----------



## Billo_Really

Shusha said:


> Please.  You DO realize that in theory I can not leave Canada, right?  My ability to leave Canada depends on another sovereign State's willingness to receive me.  International law states that I must not be prevented from leaving (and returning) to my country (as controlled by my country) but it also is clear that no country is compelled to receive me (as controlled by other countries).
> 
> The conditions which ease the passage of citizens from one nation to another are those of peace.


But other countries don't shoot you if you try to leave.  If you want to enjoy Oktoberfest in Germany, the US doesn't shoot your plane down after take off.


----------



## Shusha

Billo_Really said:


> The buffer zone, is in Gaza, not Israel.  Israel is not sovereign in Gaza.  Therefore, they have no legal right to enforce a buffer zone on someone else's land.



If Gaza and Israel are both sovereigns (and I agree that they are), Gaza has no right to make war on the border between the two sovereign nations and Israel has EVERY right to defend her border against incursion by a foreign force.  Gaza, has, then, created a belligerent condition of WAR by calling for the breach of the border and permitting conditions which make that belligerence a reality by using combatants and lethal force.  All combatants are legitimate military targets and all civilians on the field of battle are the responsibility of the sovereign in control of those civilians (Gaza).


----------



## Billo_Really

Hollie said:


> The problem with these edited videoes is that only selected portions are presented. There’s no indication of what happened before or after the edit.
> 
> Pallywood Studios has a reputation of being rather agenda driven with their silly, staged confrontations.


There is nothing you could put in the video that would justify what you are seeing.


----------



## Shusha

Billo_Really said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> Please.  You DO realize that in theory I can not leave Canada, right?  My ability to leave Canada depends on another sovereign State's willingness to receive me.  International law states that I must not be prevented from leaving (and returning) to my country (as controlled by my country) but it also is clear that no country is compelled to receive me (as controlled by other countries).
> 
> The conditions which ease the passage of citizens from one nation to another are those of peace.
> 
> 
> 
> But other countries don't shoot you if you try to leave.  If you want to enjoy Oktoberfest in Germany, the US doesn't shoot your plane down after take off.
Click to expand...


Because there is a condition of peace and diplomatic relations between Germany and the US.  You've proved my point.


----------



## Hollie

Billo_Really said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> That’s true. It is, however, Israel’s business when the Hamas Dearh Cultists choose to encourage their minions to breach the Israeli border and attempt to kill and maim Israeli citizens.
> 
> 
> 
> Well, at least it takes their minds off the price of Milky.
Click to expand...


Actually, the result is dead, vacant-minded Arabs-Moslems. The Hamas leadership, (nowhere to be found among the Islamist minions), command the minions to risk their lives and the hapless slugs do as they’re told.

How lucky for you. You can use the dead minions to promote your Jew hatreds.


----------



## ForeverYoung436

Shusha said:


> Billo_Really said:
> 
> 
> 
> Interesting you brought up Swastika's.  Because you have to go all the way back to Nazi Germany to find an entire population of people treated worse than the Palestinian's.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Um.
> 
> Syria.  Rwanda.  Rohingya.  Kurds.  Yemenites.  Yazdhi.
Click to expand...


Cambodia, Congo, Armenians, Sudan, Bosnia/ Kosovo, etc.


----------



## rylah

Billo_Really said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> I saw Gazans practice fake injuries just like in football practice...
> I also saw a big Swastika waved at Israel.
> 
> Imagine our mutual sympathy.
> 
> 
> 
> Interesting you brought up Swastika's.  Because you have to go all the way back to Nazi Germany to find an entire population of people treated worse than the Palestinian's.
Click to expand...


Give me a break, the build villas, sell sports cars and have luxurious restaurants in top hotels. Most Israelis can't even afford the average houses Arabs build for themselves.
They could have much more if Hams wasn't stealing their money to contiue the conflict  which is the mere reason for their existence. No conflict no Hamas. Israel would be among the 1st beneficiaries of a wealthy Gaza, among many other neighbors in the neighborhood. But UNRWA money and illusions of pride are too easy a way of life to give up.


----------



## Billo_Really

Shusha said:


> So you agree, then, that there has not been a cessation of hostilities by Gaza for TEN YEARS?
> 
> Also, that was June, 2008 yes?  When did the rocket fire cease in June of that year?


There were other ceasefires, I just can't remember them now. 

In 2008, it lasted from August - December.


----------



## Shusha

Billo_Really said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> So you agree, then, that there has not been a cessation of hostilities by Gaza for TEN YEARS?
> 
> Also, that was June, 2008 yes?  When did the rocket fire cease in June of that year?
> 
> 
> 
> There were other ceasefires, I just can't remember them now.
> 
> In 2008, it lasted from August - December.
Click to expand...


and rockets consistently that entire time


----------



## Billo_Really

rylah said:


> How many years ago?
> I mean can they even talk about other candidates in Gaza?
> Is there anything other than "destroy Israel , kill Israelis" on their political menu?


It was in 2006.  They said they would become just a political organization if Israel would end the occupation and allow Palestinian's the right of return.  Israel said no way.


----------



## Hollie

Billo_Really said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> The problem with these edited videoes is that only selected portions are presented. There’s no indication of what happened before or after the edit.
> 
> Pallywood Studios has a reputation of being rather agenda driven with their silly, staged confrontations.
> 
> 
> 
> There is nothing you could put in the video that would justify what you are seeing.
Click to expand...


You subscribe to the mantra “ignorance is bliss”.

You are kind of person that is a willing accomplice to Pallywood propaganda. Just tell yourself that you’re better off not knowing the facts and that what you don’t know would conflict with what you prefer to believe so, life’s good when don’t understand what you, you know, dont understand.


----------



## Billo_Really

Shusha said:


> They amended the charter?  Cool.  Where does it say in the charter that ripping out the hearts of Israelis is part of the plan?!
> 
> Live in the now.


That is a funny thing to say, because Israeli's don't have hearts.


----------



## RetiredGySgt

Billo_Really said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> They amended the charter?  Cool.  Where does it say in the charter that ripping out the hearts of Israelis is part of the plan?!
> 
> Live in the now.
> 
> 
> 
> That is a funny thing to say, because Israeli's don't have hearts.
Click to expand...

Ya we know you hate Jews, we know you think they are sub human, we know you lie and distort the facts as proven here routinely by your posts.


----------



## Hollie

Billo_Really said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> How many years ago?
> I mean can they even talk about other candidates in Gaza?
> Is there anything other than "destroy Israel , kill Israelis" on their political menu?
> 
> 
> 
> It was in 2006.  They said they would become just a political organization if Israel would end the occupation and allow Palestinian's the right of return.  Israel said no way.
Click to expand...


And 10,000 rockets flying out of Gaza’istan confirms you’re gullible. 

The bastard child of the Muslim Brotherhood is merely a “political organization”. And gee-had is a _Peacefipul Inner Struggle_™️


----------



## Shusha

Billo_Really said:


> That is a funny thing to say, because Israeli's don't have hearts.



Really?  You are reduced to this incredibly low level of Jew-demonization?  

The NOW is that the government of Gaza is threatening to invade another sovereign nation and murder its citizens.  Do better.


----------



## rylah

Billo_Really said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> How many years ago?
> I mean can they even talk about other candidates in Gaza?
> Is there anything other than "destroy Israel , kill Israelis" on their political menu?
> 
> 
> 
> It was in 2006.  They said they would become just a political organization if Israel would end the occupation and allow Palestinian's the right of return.  Israel said no way.
Click to expand...


How bout Hamas end the occupation of Gaza and allow the return of Jews...then we talk... mkay?


----------



## Billo_Really

Shusha said:


> They are requiring that people who are fishing respect the blockade because there are plenty of people who are NOT fishing but are smuggling weapons.  Stop smuggling weapons.  Fish away.
> 
> Why don't you require the Gazans to stop smuggling weapons so their own people can fish?


Why can't they have weapons?  Are you saying they have no right to defend themselves?

It's funny, as I'm writing this...

I'm watching this...


----------



## Billo_Really

Hollie said:


> Actually, the result is dead, vacant-minded Arabs-Moslems. The Hamas leadership, (nowhere to be found among the Islamist minions), command the minions to risk their lives and the hapless slugs do as they’re told.
> 
> How lucky for you. You can use the dead minions to promote your Jew hatreds.


Why would I hate Jews?


----------



## Billo_Really

rylah said:


> Give me a break, the build villas, sell sports cars and have luxurious restaurants in top hotels. Most Israelis can't even afford the average houses Arabs build for themselves.
> They could have much more if Hams wasn't stealing their money to contiue the conflict  which is the mere reason for their existence. No conflict no Hamas. Israel would be among the 1st beneficiaries of a wealthy Gaza, among many other neighbors in the neighborhood. But UNRWA money and illusions of pride are too easy a way of life to give up.


Sorry, the Isrealis are the Nazis and the Pals are the new Jews.


----------



## Shusha

Billo_Really said:


> Why can't they have weapons?  Are you saying they have no right to defend themselves?



People and sovereign nations who do not have the ability to distinguish between self-defense and aggression and do not have the ability to restrain from attacking other sovereigns and civilians of other nations should not have access to weapons.


----------



## Billo_Really

Shusha said:


> and rockets consistently that entire time


No, they went down to practically zero.


----------



## Billo_Really

Hollie said:


> You subscribe to the mantra “ignorance is bliss”.
> 
> You are kind of person that is a willing accomplice to Pallywood propaganda. Just tell yourself that you’re better off not knowing the facts and that what you don’t know would conflict with what you prefer to believe so, life’s good when don’t understand what you, you know, dont understand.


What do you get when a blonde stands on her hands?

_A brunette with bad breadth. _


----------



## Shusha

Billo_Really said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> and rockets consistently that entire time
> 
> 
> 
> No, they went down to practically zero.
Click to expand...


Not zero.


----------



## Billo_Really

RetiredGySgt said:


> Ya we know you hate Jews, we know you think they are sub human, we know you lie and distort the facts as proven here routinely by your posts.


And why would I hate Jews?


----------



## Billo_Really

Hollie said:


> And 10,000 rockets flying out of Gaza’istan confirms you’re gullible.
> 
> The bastard child of the Muslim Brotherhood is merely a “political organization”. And gee-had is a _Peacefipul Inner Struggle_™️


The rockets didn't start until 2001.  That's 34 years after the occupation began.


----------



## Billo_Really

Shusha said:


> Really?  You are reduced to this incredibly low level of Jew-demonization?
> 
> The NOW is that the government of Gaza is threatening to invade another sovereign nation and murder its citizens.  Do better.


I didn't say anything about Jews.  I was talking about Israelis.  Israelis are assholes.  They are fucking assholes.  They walk around like their shit don't stink and I'm just the guy to make them smell their own feces.


----------



## Billo_Really

rylah said:


> How bout Hamas end the occupation of Gaza and allow the return of Jews...then we talk... mkay?


I don't know, lets ask Mr. Hat.


----------



## Billo_Really

Shusha said:


> People and sovereign nations who do not have the ability to distinguish between self-defense and aggression and do not have the ability to restrain from attacking other sovereigns and civilians of other nations should not have access to weapons.


That is not your decision to make.

Why don't you come over to my house and try to tell me what's what under my roof and see what happens next?


----------



## Hollie

Billo_Really said:


> Toddsterpatriot said:
> 
> 
> 
> When a country allows rockets to be fired at civilians of another country that is war by any other name!
> 
> 
> 
> They can't aim those rockets.  So they're not fired at anyone.  They just shoot it into the sky, then go home and turn on CNN to see where it landed.
Click to expand...


Except that such actions are an act of war. 

If rockets are launched toward israel, they’re launched toward Israeli citizens. You’re having issues understanding that?


----------



## Billo_Really

Shusha said:


> Not zero.


Relative zero.


----------



## Hollie

Billo_Really said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> You phony tough guys are a hoot.
> 
> 
> 
> So you're saying one day I will kiss Israeli ass?
Click to expand...


Don’t confuse this site with your “alternate lifestyle” dating service.


----------



## Hollie

Billo_Really said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> People and sovereign nations who do not have the ability to distinguish between self-defense and aggression and do not have the ability to restrain from attacking other sovereigns and civilians of other nations should not have access to weapons.
> 
> 
> 
> That is not your decision to make.
> 
> Why don't you come over to my house and try to tell me what's what under my roof and see what happens next?
Click to expand...


Picking fights on the Internet? 

Ok tough guy. Post your home address. You can make new friends.


----------



## rylah

Billo_Really said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> How bout Hamas end the occupation of Gaza and allow the return of Jews...then we talk... mkay?
> 
> 
> 
> I don't know, lets ask Mr. Hat.
Click to expand...


Tell me when You find a brain in there,

or try Your luck walking towards Israeli border shouting_ "tear Your hearts away!", _
Palestinians can provide a Swastika for better effect.

Good luck smart guy.


----------



## Shusha

Billo_Really said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> People and sovereign nations who do not have the ability to distinguish between self-defense and aggression and do not have the ability to restrain from attacking other sovereigns and civilians of other nations should not have access to weapons.
> 
> 
> 
> That is not your decision to make.
> 
> Why don't you come over to my house and try to tell me what's what under my roof and see what happens next?
Click to expand...


Sweetheart if you were putting bombs on you all's OWN fences I'd have no problem.  Israel is not invading Gaza. Other way around.


----------



## Shusha

Billo_Really said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> Not zero.
> 
> 
> 
> Relative zero.
Click to expand...


Not zero. 

If you mean zero do zero. Otherwise it's just bullshit.


----------



## Tilly

Billo_Really said:


> Toddsterpatriot said:
> 
> 
> 
> When a country allows rockets to be fired at civilians of another country that is war by any other name!
> 
> 
> 
> They can't aim those rockets.  So they're not fired at anyone.  They just shoot it into the sky, then go home and turn on CNN to see where it landed.
Click to expand...

Awwww. Aren’t they cute?


----------



## Toddsterpatriot

Billo_Really said:


> RetiredGySgt said:
> 
> 
> 
> You ignore facts the dead Palestinians were all wielding a weapon when shot. The non lethal responses are to those that are unarmed and close on the border past the listed allowed point. All LEGAL MORAL and in self defense.
> 
> 
> 
> No they were not all wielding weapons.  All the videos I've seen they were unarmed protesters getting shot for the same reason a dog licks' its balls.
Click to expand...


* All the videos I've seen they were unarmed protesters getting shot for the same reason a dog licks' its balls. 
*
They were shot because they were itchy?


----------



## Toddsterpatriot

Billo_Really said:


> Toddsterpatriot said:
> 
> 
> 
> When a country allows rockets to be fired at civilians of another country that is war by any other name!
> 
> 
> 
> They can't aim those rockets.  So they're not fired at anyone.  They just shoot it into the sky, then go home and turn on CNN to see where it landed.
Click to expand...


*They can't aim those rockets.* 

Shooting rockets willy nilly at civilians makes it a war crime.
Nice friends you have there.


----------



## Coyote

Shusha said:


> Billo_Really said:
> 
> 
> 
> Spare me your data dump.  Gaza is a prison.  No one can leave.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Please.  You DO realize that in theory I can not leave Canada, right?  My ability to leave Canada depends on another sovereign State's willingness to receive me.  International law states that I must not be prevented from leaving (and returning) to my country (as controlled by my country) but it also is clear that no country is compelled to receive me (as controlled by other countries).
> 
> The conditions which ease the passage of citizens from one nation to another are those of peace.
Click to expand...


I agree, that is how it works...yet...they can't leave, even if they don't support violence - they, their children, families are stuck unless they attempt highly dangerous illegal crossings.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot

Billo_Really said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> How many years ago?
> I mean can they even talk about other candidates in Gaza?
> Is there anything other than "destroy Israel , kill Israelis" on their political menu?
> 
> 
> 
> It was in 2006.  They said they would become just a political organization if Israel would end the occupation and allow Palestinian's the right of return.  Israel said no way.
Click to expand...


Right of return for whom? To where?


----------



## Coyote

Billo_Really said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> When did Hamas ever organize elections in Gaza?
> 
> 
> 
> I don't think they organized it, but they did win in a fair election.
Click to expand...


And they haven't had an election since.  They really need to.  Seperate from WB.  Gaza on it's own.


----------



## Coyote

Shusha said:


> Billo_Really said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, they are shooting at people fishing.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *They are requiring that people who are fishing respect the blockade *because there are plenty of people who are NOT fishing but are smuggling weapons.  Stop smuggling weapons.  Fish away.
> 
> Why don't you require the Gazans to stop smuggling weapons so their own people can fish?
Click to expand...


The problem is - in respecting the blockade they are unable to provide a sustainable livelyhood.


----------



## Coyote

Billo_Really said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> Actually I looked for and couldn't find anything yet, except for a video of him laying in a medical tent.
> From what I see he was wounded standing in profile, with his side or angled, this seems logical since he had a vest but had the bullet exit through the left side on the lower back.
> 
> If he was shot knowingly that there was nothing wrong done - it's wrong and stupid, must be dealt..
> If he was shot by mistake with no intention many other facts have to be taken in account, and compared to similar cases worldwide, journalists take risks knowingly when they go into violent clashes.
> If he operated a drone there's no argument for his case at all.
> If he was shot on order for being an active Hamas member, and identified as such - regular military conduct against an enemy.
> 
> 
> 
> He was wearing clothing that clearly marked him as a journalist.  Israel targets the media, because they don't want the world seeing what they are doing.
Click to expand...


That is a bit of a problem.  Israel HAS harrassed journalists...

Israel : Independent media constrained by military censorship | Reporters without borders
The Israeli media are free to be outspoken, which is rare in the Middle East. Nonetheless, despite the existence of independent media, journalists are subject to “military censorship.” *The Israel Defense Forces often violate the rights of Palestinian journalists and journalists of other nations, especially when they are covering demonstrations. *Under Israel’s system of administrative detention, Palestinian journalists can be held indefinitely without trial, without formal charge, and without notifying a lawyer. *They are often accused of inciting violence, cooperating with terrorist organizations, or otherwise posing a threat to Israel’s security*


----------



## Shusha

Coyote said:


> I agree, that is how it works...yet...they can't leave, even if they don't support violence - they, their children, families are stuck unless they attempt highly dangerous illegal crossings.



The solution is peace.  Not illegal crossings.


----------



## Coyote

Shusha said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> he is also a journalist and Israel has harassed journalists before.
> 
> 
> 
> Palestinians have disguised terrorists as journalists.  Context matters.  That fact matters.  It CHANGES the way Israel views the sanctity of the Press vest.  If Palestinians do not respect that sanctity it is ludicrous to expect Israel to do so.
Click to expand...


I am not so convinced it changes things that much.  Israel also has a reputation of harrassing Palestinian and foreign journalists trying to cover demonstrations (in another post, I posted a link from Reporters Without Borders rating countries on journalistic freedom).  I think that it can become an excuse to go after Palestinian journalists - and this fellow was not armed, there is no evidence produced of a drone.




> We have conflicting accounts of what occurred so .I would like to know what evidence there is of a drone
> 
> 
> 
> The individual in question was known to use drones.  So, it fits.  Its not out of nowhere.  And since all evidence points to Israel being EXTREMELY precise in its targeting over the past few days, it stands to reason that this particular individual was targeted and not an incidental hit, a mistake or victim of a wide-spread lethal use of force.
Click to expand...


Where is the drone?  In all the video on everyone's cameras - does anything show the drone?  Did it crash?  Where is it?

He has used drones in his photo-journalism efforts.  He also just recieved a grant for photo journalism that is pretty stiffly vetted.  If he was a terrorist - I think it would have come out.



> The question to really ask, rather than, "Did this really happen?" is whether use of drones by journalists is cause for lethal use of force, when he is a known member of a military wing of what is deemed a terrorist organization.  (The individual, btw, was outside the 300m no-go zone at 350m.  And I think that is relevant since that appears to be unique.  Also, if I was to speculate, and this is just speculation, I'd imagine the stomach wound is a targeting error.  Probably intended to be non-lethal, incapacitating shot to the lower limbs.)



Good questions...and it should be investigated.  But I think another important point is - he was not armed.  He presented no danger.  If there was a drone in action - it could have been shot down.  In addition - and maybe I missed a response on this - non lethal force could have been used.  Smoke bombs, tear gas.  A sniper shooting an unarmed journalist doesn't sit right with me.




> Edited to add:  I just read rylah 's post and I agree with that list of possibilities.  And probably a better way of discussing it than my speculation.



Both good!


----------



## Shusha

Coyote said:


> The problem is - in respecting the blockade they are unable to provide a sustainable livelyhood.



And the solution to that problem is a renunciation of violence and peace with their neighbors.  You can't expect a foreign State to risk their own security in order to provide a livelihood to citizens of another country.  Its ridiculous.


----------



## Coyote

Shusha said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> I agree, that is how it works...yet...they can't leave, even if they don't support violence - they, their children, families are stuck unless they attempt highly dangerous illegal crossings.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The solution is peace.  Not illegal crossings.
Click to expand...


If you have a family to support, and children and you see no hope for resolution, then you do what you can to save them.  That is what I think


----------



## Coyote

Shusha said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> The problem is - in respecting the blockade they are unable to provide a sustainable livelyhood.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And the solution to that problem is a renunciation of violence and peace with their neighbors.  You can't expect a foreign State to risk their own security in order to provide a livelihood to citizens of another country.  Its ridiculous.
Click to expand...


Of course not.  But likewise you can't expect desperate people to adhere to a blockade when their economy is in shambles.


----------



## Shusha

Coyote said:


> *They are often accused of inciting violence, cooperating with terrorist organizations, or otherwise posing a threat to Israel’s security*



Huh.  Maybe that's because they incite violence, co-operate with terrorist organizations and pose a threat to Israel's security.


----------



## Coyote

Billo_Really said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yes...why can’t they?  They are trapped, their children are trapped...no future and leaders who are worthless.
> 
> 
> 
> They're worthless by Israeli design.  The biggest reason Hamas is hated is because they won't kiss Israel's ass, like Fatah does.  And Israeli's can't sleep at night unless someone somewhere is kissing their ass.  Which is the one thing, they will never get from me.
Click to expand...


I don't agree.  Hamas has done little for the Palestinians.  Hamas is for Hamas.  They won an election because they Fatah's corruption became unbearable.  Hamas has not shown itself to be any better.

What have they done to improve the lot of the Palestinians?  Have they invested in economies?  Infrastructure? Schools?  Peace partnerships with anyone?


----------



## Coyote

Shusha said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> *They are often accused of inciting violence, cooperating with terrorist organizations, or otherwise posing a threat to Israel’s security*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Huh.  Maybe that's because they incite violence, co-operate with terrorist organizations and pose a threat to Israel's security.
Click to expand...


Or...they are accused of it because what they report is very critical of Israel.


----------



## Coyote

Shusha said:


> Billo_Really said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> People and sovereign nations who do not have the ability to distinguish between self-defense and aggression and do not have the ability to restrain from attacking other sovereigns and civilians of other nations should not have access to weapons.
> 
> 
> 
> That is not your decision to make.
> 
> Why don't you come over to my house and try to tell me what's what under my roof and see what happens next?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Sweetheart if you were putting bombs on you all's OWN fences I'd have no problem.  Israel is not invading Gaza. Other way around.
Click to expand...


Bombs do tend to change the perspective....


----------



## Coyote

RoccoR said:


> RE:  Israeli forces shoot unarmed protesters from across Gaza security fence, killing at least 15
> ※→ Coyote, _et al,_
> 
> The HAMAS Drones have been around for more than five years.
> 
> See:  •  *Hamas drone injects new element into Arab-Israeli conflict*  •
> View attachment 187380   By David Zucchino and Ralph Vartabedian |  Jul 15, 2014
> 
> See:  •  *Hamas Publishes Photo of a Drone It Says It Built*  •
> By ISABEL KERSHNER and PATRICK J. LYONS  |  JULY 14, 2014
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> Where is the supposed drone?  Evidence supporting the claim?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Please don't fall too deep into the "but it never happened" hole.  The individual in question was a known Hamas member, using a drone to fly over Israel's forces at the time of the shooting.  The CONTEXT is that Gazans and Palestinians have used false ID (press, medical personnel, etc) in order to disguise terrorist activity.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> he is also a journalist and Israel has harassed journalists before.  We have conflicting accounts of what occurred so .I would like to know what evidence there is of a drone
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> *(COMMENT)*
> 
> 
> View attachment 187386​
> Now, you might ask! how credible is it.  I don't think it is much bigger than a toy.  But even a modified toy, complete with Blue Tooth _(cause everything is better with Blue Tooth)_.  In 2010, the Chinese had a one-inch cude camera, which could broadcast better than a Canadian football field _(Goal Post to Goal Post)_ decent BW video.  It could easily be used to view open fields of view along the border and fensesecurity barrier.
> 
> I suspect the 2014 picture of the HAMAS Drone has greatly improved and looks much more sophisticate.
> 
> Most Respectfully,
> R
Click to expand...


But Rocco, did this journalist have a drone at this demonstration?


----------



## Toddsterpatriot

Coyote said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> The problem is - in respecting the blockade they are unable to provide a sustainable livelyhood.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And the solution to that problem is a renunciation of violence and peace with their neighbors.  You can't expect a foreign State to risk their own security in order to provide a livelihood to citizens of another country.  Its ridiculous.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Of course not.  But likewise you can't expect desperate people to adhere to a blockade when their economy is in shambles.
Click to expand...


Their economy is in shambles?
Would it improve if they spent less on rockets and tunnels?


----------



## Coyote

Toddsterpatriot said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> The problem is - in respecting the blockade they are unable to provide a sustainable livelyhood.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And the solution to that problem is a renunciation of violence and peace with their neighbors.  You can't expect a foreign State to risk their own security in order to provide a livelihood to citizens of another country.  Its ridiculous.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Of course not.  But likewise you can't expect desperate people to adhere to a blockade when their economy is in shambles.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Their economy is in shambles?
> Would it improve if they spent less on rockets and tunnels?
Click to expand...


Or if there wasn't a blockade - you can't say it has no effect.


----------



## Weatherman2020

Maybe the Palestinians should offer peace and recognize the nation of Israel.
Maybe Arab nations could let people like me in even though I have an Israel stamp in my passport.

Wow, what a concept!


----------



## Weatherman2020

Toddsterpatriot said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> The problem is - in respecting the blockade they are unable to provide a sustainable livelyhood.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And the solution to that problem is a renunciation of violence and peace with their neighbors.  You can't expect a foreign State to risk their own security in order to provide a livelihood to citizens of another country.  Its ridiculous.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Of course not.  But likewise you can't expect desperate people to adhere to a blockade when their economy is in shambles.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Their economy is in shambles?
> Would it improve if they spent less on rockets and tunnels?
Click to expand...

Tunnels are infrastructure.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot

Coyote said:


> Toddsterpatriot said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> The problem is - in respecting the blockade they are unable to provide a sustainable livelyhood.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And the solution to that problem is a renunciation of violence and peace with their neighbors.  You can't expect a foreign State to risk their own security in order to provide a livelihood to citizens of another country.  Its ridiculous.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Of course not.  But likewise you can't expect desperate people to adhere to a blockade when their economy is in shambles.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Their economy is in shambles?
> Would it improve if they spent less on rockets and tunnels?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Or if there wasn't a blockade - you can't say it has no effect.
Click to expand...


Of course it has an effect. Imagine the weapons Hamas would import without a blockade.


----------



## Shusha

Coyote said:


> Of course not.  But likewise you can't expect desperate people to adhere to a blockade when their economy is in shambles.



Why not?  This is not subsistence farming (fishing).


And why not insist that Hamas stop stealing electricity from their citizens to light tunnels (which bring nothing to the economy) and instead put the electricity towards the fish farms which are, in fact, vastly more capable of improving the economy than sea fishing is?  As just a small example of how Hamas could contribute to the economy rather than hindering it.  

Why are you not making Hamas responsible for providing for its citizens?


----------



## Weatherman2020

Coyote said:


> Toddsterpatriot said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> The problem is - in respecting the blockade they are unable to provide a sustainable livelyhood.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And the solution to that problem is a renunciation of violence and peace with their neighbors.  You can't expect a foreign State to risk their own security in order to provide a livelihood to citizens of another country.  Its ridiculous.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Of course not.  But likewise you can't expect desperate people to adhere to a blockade when their economy is in shambles.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Their economy is in shambles?
> Would it improve if they spent less on rockets and tunnels?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Or if there wasn't a blockade - you can't say it has no effect.
Click to expand...

Blockade?  What's that nation to the south called and who runs it?


----------



## Coyote

Shusha said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> Of course not.  But likewise you can't expect desperate people to adhere to a blockade when their economy is in shambles.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Why not?  This is not subsistence farming (fishing).
> 
> 
> And why not insist that Hamas stop stealing electricity from their citizens to light tunnels (which bring nothing to the economy) and instead put the electricity towards the fish farms which are, in fact, vastly more capable of improving the economy than sea fishing is?  As just a small example of how Hamas could contribute to the economy rather than hindering it.
> 
> Why are you not making Hamas responsible for providing for its citizens?
Click to expand...


I agree, Hamas has much to blame.


----------



## Coyote

Weatherman2020 said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Toddsterpatriot said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> The problem is - in respecting the blockade they are unable to provide a sustainable livelyhood.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And the solution to that problem is a renunciation of violence and peace with their neighbors.  You can't expect a foreign State to risk their own security in order to provide a livelihood to citizens of another country.  Its ridiculous.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Of course not.  But likewise you can't expect desperate people to adhere to a blockade when their economy is in shambles.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Their economy is in shambles?
> Would it improve if they spent less on rockets and tunnels?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Or if there wasn't a blockade - you can't say it has no effect.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Blockade?  What's that nation to the south called and who runs it?
Click to expand...

There are two nations two the south dude.

And Egypt is just as problematic.


----------



## Shusha

Coyote said:


> Or if there wasn't a blockade - you can't say it has no effect.



Of course it has an effect!  Its meant to have an effect!  That is the POINT!

But the removal of the effect is an natural outcome of the removal of the cause.  The cause is violence against Israel.  

Expecting Israel to remove the blockade in the face of continued violence and continued incitement by the GOVERNMENT is ludicrous.


----------



## Coyote

Shusha said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> Or if there wasn't a blockade - you can't say it has no effect.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Of course it has an effect!  Its meant to have an effect!  That is the POINT!
> 
> But the removal of the effect is an natural outcome of the removal of the cause.  The cause is violence against Israel.
> 
> Expecting Israel to remove the blockade in the face of continued violence and continued incitement by the GOVERNMENT is ludicrous.
Click to expand...


The problem is, imo - the blockade went up with the election of Hamas - a democratic election.  No attempt to try to work with Hamas, etc.


----------



## Shusha

Coyote said:


> I agree, Hamas has much to blame.



Hamas, as the government of Gaza, has the responsibility to serve its citizens.  It is utterly failing to do so by expending resources on entirely pointless belligerence against a sovereign State and by funneling resources to that fruitless war at the expense of its citizens well-being.

Israel is delicately balancing the humanitarian needs of foreign citizens and its own security.  

Moral clarity is needed here.


----------



## Shusha

Coyote said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> Or if there wasn't a blockade - you can't say it has no effect.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Of course it has an effect!  Its meant to have an effect!  That is the POINT!
> 
> But the removal of the effect is an natural outcome of the removal of the cause.  The cause is violence against Israel.
> 
> Expecting Israel to remove the blockade in the face of continued violence and continued incitement by the GOVERNMENT is ludicrous.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The problem is, imo - the blockade went up with the election of Hamas - a democratic election.  No attempt to try to work with Hamas, etc.
Click to expand...


That may have been a valid argument in 2007.  Its not now.  Because Hamas has failed to demonstrate a willingness accept peace with Israel.  (tearing hearts out, anyone?)


----------



## Coyote

Shusha said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> Or if there wasn't a blockade - you can't say it has no effect.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Of course it has an effect!  Its meant to have an effect!  That is the POINT!
> 
> But the removal of the effect is an natural outcome of the removal of the cause.  The cause is violence against Israel.
> 
> Expecting Israel to remove the blockade in the face of continued violence and continued incitement by the GOVERNMENT is ludicrous.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The problem is, imo - the blockade went up with the election of Hamas - a democratic election.  No attempt to try to work with Hamas, etc.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> That may have been a valid argument in 2007.  Its not now.  Because Hamas has failed to demonstrate a willingness accept peace with Israel.  (tearing hearts out, anyone?)
Click to expand...


You are right, it is not a valid argument now, however - it might not have come to this if Israel had made a good faith effort to work with them in the beginning.  They didn't at all.


----------



## Coyote

Shusha said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> I agree, Hamas has much to blame.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hamas, as the government of Gaza, has the responsibility to serve its citizens.  It is utterly failing to do so by expending resources on entirely pointless belligerence against a sovereign State and by funneling resources to that fruitless war at the expense of its citizens well-being.
> *
> Israel is delicately balancing the humanitarian needs of foreign citizens and its own security.  *
> 
> Moral clarity is needed here.
Click to expand...


Except that the blockade was imposed before the new government had a chance to even do anything.  In a sense - Israel created this situation.


----------



## Shusha

Coyote said:


> The problem is, imo - the blockade went up with the election of Hamas - a democratic election.  No attempt to try to work with Hamas, etc.



And I think that sidelines the actual problem.  

The problem is the insistent refusal of peace on the part of Gaza.  Both the citizens and their leadership.  What would happen if there was no more violence?  If Hamas, as government of Gaza, actually made sure that not a singe weapon was imported, or a single rocket launched, or a single suicide bomber crossed the border?

*What would happen, in the context of this very discussion, if the government of Gaza were the ones which prevented their own citizens from getting too close to the fence?  If they policed the protest?  *If the government of Gaza searched every person coming to the protest?  If they confiscated guns, bombs, slingshots, tires, firebombs, knives, swastikas, drones?  And turned away all those who brought them?  Or arrested them*?  

*


----------



## Shusha

Coyote said:


> You are right, it is not a valid argument now, however - it might not have come to this if Israel had made a good faith effort to work with them in the beginning.  They didn't at all.



As easily argue that Hamas did not make a good faith effort to make peace with Israel.  You are forgetting the REASON why Israel did not work with them from the beginning -- they refused peace; they refused to abide by existing agreements and they refused to recognize Israel.  So on what grounds was there good faith which Israel could work with?


----------



## Coyote

Shusha said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> You are right, it is not a valid argument now, however - it might not have come to this if Israel had made a good faith effort to work with them in the beginning.  They didn't at all.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As easily argue that Hamas did not make a good faith effort to make peace with Israel.  You are forgetting the REASON why Israel did not work with them from the beginning -- they refused peace; they refused to abide by existing agreements and they refused to recognize Israel.  So on what grounds was there good faith which Israel could work with?
Click to expand...


When they were elected into power - did Israel give them a chance?


----------



## Coyote

Shusha said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> The problem is, imo - the blockade went up with the election of Hamas - a democratic election.  No attempt to try to work with Hamas, etc.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And I think that sidelines the actual problem.
> 
> The problem is the insistent refusal of peace on the part of Gaza.  Both the citizens and their leadership.  What would happen if there was no more violence?  If Hamas, as government of Gaza, actually made sure that not a singe weapon was imported, or a single rocket launched, or a single suicide bomber crossed the border?
> 
> *What would happen, in the context of this very discussion, if the government of Gaza were the ones which prevented their own citizens from getting too close to the fence?  If they policed the protest?  *If the government of Gaza searched every person coming to the protest?  If they confiscated guns, bombs, slingshots, tires, firebombs, knives, swastikas, drones?  And turned away all those who brought them?  Or arrested them*?
> *
Click to expand...


If that happened - the conflict would likely be on it's way to an end.


----------



## Weatherman2020

Coyote said:


> Weatherman2020 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Toddsterpatriot said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> And the solution to that problem is a renunciation of violence and peace with their neighbors.  You can't expect a foreign State to risk their own security in order to provide a livelihood to citizens of another country.  Its ridiculous.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Of course not.  But likewise you can't expect desperate people to adhere to a blockade when their economy is in shambles.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Their economy is in shambles?
> Would it improve if they spent less on rockets and tunnels?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Or if there wasn't a blockade - you can't say it has no effect.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Blockade?  What's that nation to the south called and who runs it?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> There are two nations two the south dude.
> 
> And Egypt is just as problematic.
Click to expand...

Why is Egypt blockading those poor starving Pals?


----------



## Shusha

Coyote said:


> When they were elected into power - did Israel give them a chance?



They have been in power for more than a decade.  They have had plenty of chances.  They have a chance again tomorrow.  

You can whine all you want that they didn't get their Shreddies one morning ten years ago and they were hungry.  But when you keep putting the Shreddies in front of them day after day after day, its not your fault they are still hungry.


----------



## Weatherman2020

Coyote said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> You are right, it is not a valid argument now, however - it might not have come to this if Israel had made a good faith effort to work with them in the beginning.  They didn't at all.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As easily argue that Hamas did not make a good faith effort to make peace with Israel.  You are forgetting the REASON why Israel did not work with them from the beginning -- they refused peace; they refused to abide by existing agreements and they refused to recognize Israel.  So on what grounds was there good faith which Israel could work with?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> When they were elected into power - did Israel give them a chance?
Click to expand...

Did I miss the news where Hamas said they want peace with Jews?


----------



## RetiredGySgt

Coyote said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> You are right, it is not a valid argument now, however - it might not have come to this if Israel had made a good faith effort to work with them in the beginning.  They didn't at all.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As easily argue that Hamas did not make a good faith effort to make peace with Israel.  You are forgetting the REASON why Israel did not work with them from the beginning -- they refused peace; they refused to abide by existing agreements and they refused to recognize Israel.  So on what grounds was there good faith which Israel could work with?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> When they were elected into power - did Israel give them a chance?
Click to expand...

Hamas has as a charter the destruction of Israel and made statements to that effect during the election, explain in detail why Israel should offer an olive branch to a group that PUBLICLY STATES it wants to destroy Israel?


----------



## Shusha

Coyote said:


> If that happened - the conflict would likely be on it's way to an end.



Whose fault is it that it is not happening and the conflict is not ending then?


----------



## Coyote

Shusha said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> If that happened - the conflict would likely be on it's way to an end.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Whose fault is it that it is not happening and the conflict is not ending then?
Click to expand...


I think it's a mix, and yes I place a lot on Hamas, but I also think Israel has not made it any easier.  The Palestinians are seeing the possibility of a two state solution as no longer possible.  They feel the US is no longer an honest broker and they are right.  There is no pressure on Isreal to negotiate what so ever they can effectively do what they wish.  The Palestinians have no real leadership, and no elections in sight.  Hamas has has done nothing towards improving their situation, and continues to refuse to recognize Isreal.


----------



## Coyote

RetiredGySgt said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> You are right, it is not a valid argument now, however - it might not have come to this if Israel had made a good faith effort to work with them in the beginning.  They didn't at all.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As easily argue that Hamas did not make a good faith effort to make peace with Israel.  You are forgetting the REASON why Israel did not work with them from the beginning -- they refused peace; they refused to abide by existing agreements and they refused to recognize Israel.  So on what grounds was there good faith which Israel could work with?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> When they were elected into power - did Israel give them a chance?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Hamas has as a charter the destruction of Israel and made statements to that effect during the election, explain in detail why Israel should offer an olive branch to a group that PUBLICLY STATES it wants to destroy Israel?
Click to expand...


1.  Because they are the duly elected goverment and 2. Because an olive branch might open the way to negotiations on the recognition of Israel and some sort of peace process.


----------



## Shusha

Coyote said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> If that happened - the conflict would likely be on it's way to an end.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Whose fault is it that it is not happening and the conflict is not ending then?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I think it's a mix, and yes I place a lot on Hamas, but I also think Israel has not made it any easier.  The Palestinians are seeing the possibility of a two state solution as no longer possible.  They feel the US is no longer an honest broker and they are right.  There is no pressure on Isreal to negotiate what so ever they can effectively do what they wish.  The Palestinians have no real leadership, and no elections in sight.  Hamas has has done nothing towards improving their situation, and continues to refuse to recognize Isreal.
Click to expand...


Right now, the US is being the most honest broker, imo.  I have no love for Trump but give me ten of Nikki Haley and I can change the world.

Hamas needs to be held responsible.  IF they step up and Israel responds inappropriately then we can shit all over Israel.  (Don't think it will have to happen).  But we can't shit on Israel for setting completely appropriate boundaries (of both the literal and figurative kind) in order to preserve her own sovereignty and security.


----------



## Shusha

Coyote said:


> 1.  Because they are the duly elected goverment and 2. Because an olive branch might open the way to negotiations on the recognition of Israel and some sort of peace process.



The disengagement from Gaza WAS the olive branch.  Still no negotiation, no recognition, no peace.  

Its not on Israel to shift that paradigm.  Its on Hamas.  (Perhaps vowing not to rip out our hearts would be a good place to start?)


----------



## Coyote

Shusha said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> If that happened - the conflict would likely be on it's way to an end.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Whose fault is it that it is not happening and the conflict is not ending then?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I think it's a mix, and yes I place a lot on Hamas, but I also think Israel has not made it any easier.  The Palestinians are seeing the possibility of a two state solution as no longer possible.  They feel the US is no longer an honest broker and they are right.  There is no pressure on Isreal to negotiate what so ever they can effectively do what they wish.  The Palestinians have no real leadership, and no elections in sight.  Hamas has has done nothing towards improving their situation, and continues to refuse to recognize Isreal.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Right now, the US is being the most honest broker, imo.  I have no love for Trump but give me ten of Nikki Haley and I can change the world.
> 
> Hamas needs to be held responsible.  IF they step up and Israel responds inappropriately then we can shit all over Israel.  (Don't think it will have to happen).  But we can't shit on Israel for setting completely appropriate boundaries (of both the literal and figurative kind) in order to preserve her own sovereignty and security.
Click to expand...


I think that the way the Palestinians were effed over with Jerusalem has forever tarnished the US' role.  Over and over we heard how things like recognition, boundaries, etc MUST be negotiated.  What happened?


----------



## Coyote

Shusha said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 1.  Because they are the duly elected goverment and 2. Because an olive branch might open the way to negotiations on the recognition of Israel and some sort of peace process.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The disengagement from Gaza WAS the olive branch.  Still no negotiation, no recognition, no peace.
> 
> Its not on Israel to shift that paradigm.  Its on Hamas.  (Perhaps vowing not to rip out our hearts would be a good place to start?)
Click to expand...


Agree - it was one.

But imposing the blockade on the heels of the election of Hamas did nothing to improve matters. It made any negotiation impossible by refusing to recognize Hamas' legitamacy as the elected government and it never gave negotation a chance.  You can not negotiate through a blockade that demands you overturn your elected government.  And no - I'm not saying I think Hamas is good, but they WERE elected.  Had Israel opened up avenues of discussion with them, recognized them as they want Hamas to recognize their own legitimacy - then maybe things would have been different?  Maybe things wouldn't have and Hamas would just act like Hamas instead of governing but at least then a blockade would have been justified.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot

Coyote said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 1.  Because they are the duly elected goverment and 2. Because an olive branch might open the way to negotiations on the recognition of Israel and some sort of peace process.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The disengagement from Gaza WAS the olive branch.  Still no negotiation, no recognition, no peace.
> 
> Its not on Israel to shift that paradigm.  Its on Hamas.  (Perhaps vowing not to rip out our hearts would be a good place to start?)
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Agree - it was one.
> 
> But imposing the blockade on the heels of the election of Hamas did nothing to improve matters. It made any negotiation impossible by refusing to recognize Hamas' legitamacy as the elected government and it never gave negotation a chance.  You can not negotiate through a blockade that demands you overturn your elected government.  And no - I'm not saying I think Hamas is good, but they WERE elected.  Had Israel opened up avenues of discussion with them, recognized them as they want Hamas to recognize their own legitimacy - then maybe things would have been different?  Maybe things wouldn't have and Hamas would just act like Hamas instead of governing but at least then a blockade would have been justified.
Click to expand...


*Had Israel opened up avenues of discussion with them, recognized them 
*
Hamas has to recognize Israel first.


----------



## Coyote

Toddsterpatriot said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 1.  Because they are the duly elected goverment and 2. Because an olive branch might open the way to negotiations on the recognition of Israel and some sort of peace process.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The disengagement from Gaza WAS the olive branch.  Still no negotiation, no recognition, no peace.
> 
> Its not on Israel to shift that paradigm.  Its on Hamas.  (Perhaps vowing not to rip out our hearts would be a good place to start?)
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Agree - it was one.
> 
> But imposing the blockade on the heels of the election of Hamas did nothing to improve matters. It made any negotiation impossible by refusing to recognize Hamas' legitamacy as the elected government and it never gave negotation a chance.  You can not negotiate through a blockade that demands you overturn your elected government.  And no - I'm not saying I think Hamas is good, but they WERE elected.  Had Israel opened up avenues of discussion with them, recognized them as they want Hamas to recognize their own legitimacy - then maybe things would have been different?  Maybe things wouldn't have and Hamas would just act like Hamas instead of governing but at least then a blockade would have been justified.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> *Had Israel opened up avenues of discussion with them, recognized them
> *
> Hamas has to recognize Israel first.
Click to expand...


Hamas HAS to recognize Israel.  Whether it occurs first or second is immaterial.  If you slap on a blockade, you cut off all options.


----------



## Shusha

Coyote said:


> I think that the way the Palestinians were effed over with Jerusalem has forever tarnished the US' role.  Over and over we heard how things like recognition, boundaries, etc MUST be negotiated.  What happened?



In what world does Israel NOT already have sovereignty over at least a part of Jerusalem?  In what world has Israel NOT had sovereignty over West Jerusalem since her establishment?  The only world where Israel is NOT sovereign over West Jerusalem is a reality where Israel has no sovereignty over any territory.  

Surely you are not going to argue that Israel has no sovereignty over any territory?  But even if you ARE arguing that -- you are arguing for a free-for-all where all bets are off.  And everything is subject to negotiation.  (Which is actually legally true).  Not sure that is where you want to go.  (But MAN am I game if you do!  If EVERYTHING is subject to negotiation, boundaries and recognition then settlements are just GAME ON!)

If you are not arguing that -- you are arguing for some sort of expected result or status quo.  The status quo is that West Jerusalem is under Israeli sovereignty. 

There is no way to argue that the Arab Palestinians were effed here.


----------



## fncceo

Coyote said:


> I think that the way the Palestinians were effed over with Jerusalem



And no one on Earth had it coming more.


----------



## Shusha

Coyote said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 1.  Because they are the duly elected goverment and 2. Because an olive branch might open the way to negotiations on the recognition of Israel and some sort of peace process.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The disengagement from Gaza WAS the olive branch.  Still no negotiation, no recognition, no peace.
> 
> Its not on Israel to shift that paradigm.  Its on Hamas.  (Perhaps vowing not to rip out our hearts would be a good place to start?)
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Agree - it was one.
> 
> But imposing the blockade on the heels of the election of Hamas did nothing to improve matters. It made any negotiation impossible by refusing to recognize Hamas' legitamacy as the elected government and it never gave negotation a chance.  You can not negotiate through a blockade that demands you overturn your elected government.  And no - I'm not saying I think Hamas is good, but they WERE elected.  Had Israel opened up avenues of discussion with them, recognized them as they want Hamas to recognize their own legitimacy - then maybe things would have been different?  Maybe things wouldn't have and Hamas would just act like Hamas instead of governing but at least then a blockade would have been justified.
Click to expand...


But you are still negating any responsibility on the part of Hamas.  

Israel offers olive branch.  (HUGE concession of actual territory and sovereignty).  Hamas rejects recognition, negotiation, peace.  And you say _Israel _should have tried harder.  

Its a decade later.  Chances and more chances.  Still another tomorrow.  

Why isn't Hamas policing its own citizens during riots against another sovereign's border?


----------



## Shusha

Coyote said:


> Hamas HAS to recognize Israel.  Whether it occurs first or second is immaterial.  If you slap on a blockade, you cut off all options.



Yeah, no.  Hamas has to recognize Israel first.  Without that there is nothing.  It would be like having a wedding where one of the parties to be married refuses to say their vows.

And a blockade does not cut off all options.  Only the option of violent belligerence.  And then only marginally, as the events of the week demonstrate.


----------



## RoccoR

RE:  Israeli forces shoot unarmed protesters from across Gaza security fence, killing at least 15
※→ Coyote, _et al,_

*BLUF:* I don't know.  But in all probably *not*.

It is more likely the case that the Arab Palestinians either staged the event for media exploitation; or actually killed one of their own _ (a sacrifice to the cause)_.



Coyote said:


> But Rocco, did this journalist have a drone at this demonstration?


*(COMMENT)*

The likelihood that a journalist with a drone, more professionally known as UAS _(unmanned aerial systems)_, would be targeted by the Israelis is extremely low.  UASs are notorious for being intercepted.  Standing Orders for the Military. Border Guards and Police is to report the use.  The local signals intelligence unit _(SIGSEC)_ will just tune-in the signal and stream the video back to that sector.  Whatever the journalist on the sees using the device, the sector command also sees simultaneously.

The IDF Intelligence Directorate (along with the other intelligence community members) does not interdict, destroy or otherwise neutralize lucrative → action oriented collection platforms → especially assets that provide real-time intelligence.

Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## Shusha

RoccoR said:


> RE:  Israeli forces shoot unarmed protesters from across Gaza security fence, killing at least 15
> ※→ Coyote, _et al,_
> 
> *BLUF:* I don't know.  But in all probably *not*.
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> But Rocco, did this journalist have a drone at this demonstration?
> 
> 
> 
> *(COMMENT)*
> 
> The likelihood that a journalist with a drone, more professionally known as UAS _(unmanned aerial systems)_, would be targeted by the Israelis is extremely low.  UASs are notorious for being intercepted.  Standing Orders for the Military. Border Guards and Police is to report the use.  The local signals intelligence unit _(SIGSEC)_ will just tune-in the signal and stream the video back to that sector.  Whatever the journalist on the sees using the device, the sector command also sees simultaneously.
> 
> The IDF Intelligence Directorate (along with the other intelligence community members) does not interdict, destroy or otherwise neutralize lucrative → action oriented collection platforms → especially assets that provide real-time intelligence.
> 
> Most Respectfully,
> R
Click to expand...



Interesting.  So are you thinking rogue shot or deliberate target for this instance?  Just speculation, of course.


----------



## RoccoR

RE:  Israeli forces shoot unarmed protesters from across Gaza security fence, killing at least 15
※→ Shusha, _et al,_

A "rogue shot" is possible, but highly unlikely (very unlikely).



Shusha said:


> Interesting.  So are you thinking rogue shot or deliberate target for this instance?  Just speculation, of course.


*(COMMENT)*

You have to ask the question:  Who has the most to gain from that single event.

The villain of the day → the Israelis?
-------------------- or -----------------------
The Arab Palestines, in the role of the
victims, played by themselves.​
You don't need a degree from *Juilliard *to see what is happening here.

Like our friend "Coyote," you have every right to be spectacle.  But this entire event was instigated for what purpose?

Ask the basic interrogatives.

Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## Humanity

Shusha said:


> I have no idea where you get that Israel controls 80% of Gaza.



The only part of Gaza not controlled by Israel is the border with Egypt. Land, air and sea is controlled by Israel.



Shusha said:


> Dance, have picnics, tell stories, make speeches of peace and brotherhood and co-operation.



And be shot at...


----------



## Billo_Really

rylah said:


> Tell me when You find a brain in there,
> 
> or try Your luck walking towards Israeli border shouting_ "tear Your hearts away!", _
> Palestinians can provide a Swastika for better effect.
> 
> Good luck smart guy.


Israel's use of force are war crimes and its leaders should be prosecuted in the ICC.


----------



## Billo_Really

Shusha said:


> Sweetheart if you were putting bombs on you all's OWN fences I'd have no problem.  Israel is not invading Gaza. Other way around.


Israeli snipers are deliberately shooting unarmed Palestinian's on Palestinian soil.  That's an invasion.


----------



## Billo_Really

Shusha said:


> Not zero.
> 
> If you mean zero do zero. Otherwise it's just bullshit.


Going from 400 - 1 is pretty impressive.  It was also moot.  Israel didn't do jack shit in return.  So fuck Israel!


----------



## Billo_Really

Tilly said:


> Awwww. Aren’t they cute?


They're actually war crimes, because the rockets are considered an indiscriminate weapon.


----------



## Billo_Really

Toddsterpatriot said:


> * All the videos I've seen they were unarmed protesters getting shot for the same reason a dog licks' its balls.
> *
> They were shot because they were itchy?


You never heard that?

Why does a dog lick its balls?

Because it can!


----------



## Billo_Really

Coyote said:


> I agree, that is how it works...yet...they can't leave, even if they don't support violence - they, their children, families are stuck unless they attempt highly dangerous illegal crossings.


And if she decided to go visit Niagra Falls (on the Canadian side), the US Coast Guard doesn't sit there across the border and fire pot shots at her.


----------



## Billo_Really

Toddsterpatriot said:


> Right of return for whom? To where?


For them, to there.


----------



## Billo_Really

Coyote said:


> That is a bit of a problem.  Israel HAS harrassed journalists...
> 
> Israel : Independent media constrained by military censorship | Reporters without borders
> The Israeli media are free to be outspoken, which is rare in the Middle East. Nonetheless, despite the existence of independent media, journalists are subject to “military censorship.” *The Israel Defense Forces often violate the rights of Palestinian journalists and journalists of other nations, especially when they are covering demonstrations. *Under Israel’s system of administrative detention, Palestinian journalists can be held indefinitely without trial, without formal charge, and without notifying a lawyer. *They are often accused of inciting violence, cooperating with terrorist organizations, or otherwise posing a threat to Israel’s security*


Just like Germany in the early '30's.


----------



## Billo_Really

Coyote said:


> I don't agree.  Hamas has done little for the Palestinians.  Hamas is for Hamas.  They won an election because they Fatah's corruption became unbearable.  Hamas has not shown itself to be any better.
> 
> What have they done to improve the lot of the Palestinians?  Have they invested in economies?  Infrastructure? Schools?  Peace partnerships with anyone?


As a matter of fact, they have.  The problem is, Hamas completes street improvements on a Gaza street by putting up street lights and the IDF comes along later and shoots out the lamps at the top.


----------



## rylah

The biggest mistake of the Gazans, imo was that they allowed Hamas to easily and quickly hijack the European organized march.

Swastikas, rifles, IED's and threats of mass murder followed. They themselves basically gave Israel a very solid basis for a military action, and moral backup.

Get this through  - they're marching with a Swastika shouting "we'll tear Your hearts away!" to gain some sympathy....on the eve of the Holocaust Memorial Day....with a swastika...to gain sympathy.

I can't find words precise enough to describe how ridiculously self-defeating it looks, even suicidal.
I can't even imagine what it takes for our boys to keep the restraint while seeing all of this filth being presented so proudly open.


----------



## Humanity

Shusha said:


> people who are fishing respect the blockade



This is just Israel BS...

How many Gazan fishermen are smuggling weapon OUT of Gaza?

It's not a blockade of Gazan fishermen that is required it is an exclusion zone to stop boats coming IN. 

However, an exclusion zone, in international waters, would be against international law so, it's just easier for Israel to break international law and blockade Gazan fishermen!


----------



## rylah

OUT of Gaza? I'm sure You meant INTO Gaza.

And appears to be not a lot, because the control doesn't allow to much trafficking from Egypt, however the attempt are frequent. The proffered way is tunnels and trafficking in Sinai.

Gazans were proposed a port with an airport and oil field. Israel wanted joint overseeing control of the security with Palestinians and other international members of states. They refused, Hamas that is, noone asked the people.


----------



## Tilly

RetiredGySgt said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> You are right, it is not a valid argument now, however - it might not have come to this if Israel had made a good faith effort to work with them in the beginning.  They didn't at all.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As easily argue that Hamas did not make a good faith effort to make peace with Israel.  You are forgetting the REASON why Israel did not work with them from the beginning -- they refused peace; they refused to abide by existing agreements and they refused to recognize Israel.  So on what grounds was there good faith which Israel could work with?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> When they were elected into power - did Israel give them a chance?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Hamas has as a charter the destruction of Israel and made statements to that effect during the election, explain in detail why Israel should offer an olive branch to a group that PUBLICLY STATES it wants to destroy Israel?
Click to expand...

Indeed. They were elected by the Pals on a terrorist manifesto that clearly stated their desire for the destruction of Israel.


----------



## rylah

Tilly said:


> RetiredGySgt said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> You are right, it is not a valid argument now, however - it might not have come to this if Israel had made a good faith effort to work with them in the beginning.  They didn't at all.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As easily argue that Hamas did not make a good faith effort to make peace with Israel.  You are forgetting the REASON why Israel did not work with them from the beginning -- they refused peace; they refused to abide by existing agreements and they refused to recognize Israel.  So on what grounds was there good faith which Israel could work with?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> When they were elected into power - did Israel give them a chance?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Hamas has as a charter the destruction of Israel and made statements to that effect during the election, explain in detail why Israel should offer an olive branch to a group that PUBLICLY STATES it wants to destroy Israel?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Indeed. They were elected by the Pals on a terrorist manifesto that clearly stated their desire for the destruction of Israel.
Click to expand...


No other plan or vision. 
In one word suicidal.


----------



## Coyote

Shusha said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> When they were elected into power - did Israel give them a chance?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> They have been in power for more than a decade.  They have had plenty of chances.  They have a chance again tomorrow.
> 
> You can whine all you want that they didn't get their Shreddies one morning ten years ago and they were hungry.  But when you keep putting the Shreddies in front of them day after day after day, its not your fault they are still hungry.
Click to expand...

I am not whining.  I am just pointing out that Israel never gave gave them a chance and you are ignoring that while justifying the blockade.  The blockade was not just.  It went up ahead of any offensive actions towards Israel, because Israel refused to accept the results of the election.  It promptly ended any possibility for peace as effectively as any violence.


----------



## Coyote

RoccoR said:


> RE:  Israeli forces shoot unarmed protesters from across Gaza security fence, killing at least 15
> ※→ Coyote, _et al,_
> 
> *BLUF:* I don't know.  But in all probably *not*.
> 
> It is more likely the case that the Arab Palestinians either staged the event for media exploitation; or actually killed one of their own _ (a sacrifice to the cause)_.
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> But Rocco, did this journalist have a drone at this demonstration?
> 
> 
> 
> *(COMMENT)*
> 
> The likelihood that a journalist with a drone, more professionally known as UAS _(unmanned aerial systems)_, would be targeted by the Israelis is extremely low.  UASs are notorious for being intercepted.  Standing Orders for the Military. Border Guards and Police is to report the use.  The local signals intelligence unit _(SIGSEC)_ will just tune-in the signal and stream the video back to that sector.  Whatever the journalist on the sees using the device, the sector command also sees simultaneously.
> 
> The IDF Intelligence Directorate (along with the other intelligence community members) does not interdict, destroy or otherwise neutralize lucrative → action oriented collection platforms → especially assets that provide real-time intelligence.
> 
> Most Respectfully,
> R
Click to expand...

I doubt the Palestinians killed him.  Israel is not denying they shot him.  Sometimes Rocco, Israel’s actions ARE wrong.  They are no more the perpetual victim then the Pali’s, and sometimes the Palestinians are right. There is the frequent refrain that Israel is always evil...but you ignore the other refrain that Israel can do no wrong.


----------



## Coyote

Lllll


Billo_Really said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> That is a bit of a problem.  Israel HAS harrassed journalists...
> 
> Israel : Independent media constrained by military censorship | Reporters without borders
> The Israeli media are free to be outspoken, which is rare in the Middle East. Nonetheless, despite the existence of independent media, journalists are subject to “military censorship.” *The Israel Defense Forces often violate the rights of Palestinian journalists and journalists of other nations, especially when they are covering demonstrations. *Under Israel’s system of administrative detention, Palestinian journalists can be held indefinitely without trial, without formal charge, and without notifying a lawyer. *They are often accused of inciting violence, cooperating with terrorist organizations, or otherwise posing a threat to Israel’s security*
> 
> 
> 
> Just like Germany in the early '30's.
Click to expand...

errrr not really Billo....


----------



## Coyote

Billo_Really said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> I don't agree.  Hamas has done little for the Palestinians.  Hamas is for Hamas.  They won an election because they Fatah's corruption became unbearable.  Hamas has not shown itself to be any better.
> 
> What have they done to improve the lot of the Palestinians?  Have they invested in economies?  Infrastructure? Schools?  Peace partnerships with anyone?
> 
> 
> 
> As a matter of fact, they have.  The problem is, Hamas completes street improvements on a Gaza street by putting up street lights and the IDF comes along later and shoots out the lamps at the top.
Click to expand...

What has Hamas invested into the Gaza economy?  Besides tunnels and rockets?


----------



## Hollie

Billo_Really said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> Tell me when You find a brain in there,
> 
> or try Your luck walking towards Israeli border shouting_ "tear Your hearts away!", _
> Palestinians can provide a Swastika for better effect.
> 
> Good luck smart guy.
> 
> 
> 
> Israel's use of force are war crimes and its leaders should be prosecuted in the ICC.
Click to expand...


Israel's response to acts of war from islamic terrorists are hardly war crimes.


----------



## rylah

Coyote said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> 
> RE:  Israeli forces shoot unarmed protesters from across Gaza security fence, killing at least 15
> ※→ Coyote, _et al,_
> 
> *BLUF:* I don't know.  But in all probably *not*.
> 
> It is more likely the case that the Arab Palestinians either staged the event for media exploitation; or actually killed one of their own _ (a sacrifice to the cause)_.
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> But Rocco, did this journalist have a drone at this demonstration?
> 
> 
> 
> *(COMMENT)*
> 
> The likelihood that a journalist with a drone, more professionally known as UAS _(unmanned aerial systems)_, would be targeted by the Israelis is extremely low.  UASs are notorious for being intercepted.  Standing Orders for the Military. Border Guards and Police is to report the use.  The local signals intelligence unit _(SIGSEC)_ will just tune-in the signal and stream the video back to that sector.  Whatever the journalist on the sees using the device, the sector command also sees simultaneously.
> 
> The IDF Intelligence Directorate (along with the other intelligence community members) does not interdict, destroy or otherwise neutralize lucrative → action oriented collection platforms → especially assets that provide real-time intelligence.
> 
> Most Respectfully,
> R
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I doubt the Palestinians killed him.  Israel is not denying they shot him.  Sometimes Rocco, Israel’s actions ARE wrong.  They are no more the perpetual victim then the Pali’s, and sometimes the Palestinians are right. There is the frequent refrain that Israel is always evil...but you ignore the other refrain that Israel can do no wrong.
Click to expand...


Israel is not denying anything, we don't know it's being investigated.
The fact is all the info we have is a footage of a man being treated after the incident, and the response of the defense minister, who actually himself said it's not clear. 

This is at least strange in light of thousands of cameras on the ground.
Then again if they weren't burning tires but planting flowers into a picture of their flag, and a soldier shot them - their complaints would have more weight.

Let's be clear - even those who supposedly came only to "protest and dance", have eyes and know full well that the smoke is to allow better covering for militant activity among them, and that their protest is being used for Hamas/Islamic Jihad provocations.


----------



## rylah

Coyote said:


> Billo_Really said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> I don't agree.  Hamas has done little for the Palestinians.  Hamas is for Hamas.  They won an election because they Fatah's corruption became unbearable.  Hamas has not shown itself to be any better.
> 
> What have they done to improve the lot of the Palestinians?  Have they invested in economies?  Infrastructure? Schools?  Peace partnerships with anyone?
> 
> 
> 
> As a matter of fact, they have.  The problem is, Hamas completes street improvements on a Gaza street by putting up street lights and the IDF comes along later and shoots out the lamps at the top.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> What has Hamas invested into the Gaza economy?  Besides tunnels and rockets?
Click to expand...


The minimum needed to keep receiving more aid and keep the struggle, all the luxury in Gaza is coming from Emirates money because they're more strict about the spending.

So I suggest  that a better question is how much peanuts have been diverted from Hamas pockets to the people on the order of Qatar, and who else is in power to influence Hamas.. or make them irrelevant?


----------



## Shusha

Humanity said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> people who are fishing respect the blockade
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is just Israel BS...
> 
> How many Gazan fishermen are smuggling weapon OUT of Gaza?
> 
> It's not a blockade of Gazan fishermen that is required it is an exclusion zone to stop boats coming IN.
> 
> However, an exclusion zone, in international waters, would be against international law so, it's just easier for Israel to break international law and blockade Gazan fishermen!
Click to expand...


There is nothing illegal about a blockade.  Perfectly legit form of warfare.  The only time it is illegal is when it is set up in the territorial waters of a neutral nation.  

And what the "fishermen" DO is pick up transfers of smuggled weapons and bring them to shore.  OR, as is the case earlier this month -- they plan attacks on Israeli ships.


----------



## Shusha

Coyote said:


> I am not whining.  I am just pointing out that Israel never gave gave them a chance and you are ignoring that while justifying the blockade.  The blockade was not just.  It went up ahead of any offensive actions towards Israel, because Israel refused to accept the results of the election.  It promptly ended any possibility for peace as effectively as any violence.



The blockade IS perfectly justifiable.  Whether it was a decade ago is immaterial to this discussion, though I'd argue that was then as well.  Hamas was designated a terrorist organization in 2002 by Canada and 2003 by the US.  Hamas stated that it would not recognize Israel, would not make peace with Israel and would not honor existing agreements and treaties with Israel.  All valid reasons to institute a blockade.  Not to mention the fact that Fatah and Hamas were throwing each other off buildings.

And not only that, it reeks of victim-blaming in the sense, "Its all Israel's fault -- if only they had made peace with a terrorist organization there wouldn't have been any violence".  Again, its reversing cause and effect.  The blockade was a REACTION to a threat to Israel.

And it doesn't explain or excuse what Hamas should be doing NOW to police its own people and prevent them from making unwarranted and belligerent attacks on Israel.


----------



## Humanity

Shusha said:


> Humanity said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> people who are fishing respect the blockade
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is just Israel BS...
> 
> How many Gazan fishermen are smuggling weapon OUT of Gaza?
> 
> It's not a blockade of Gazan fishermen that is required it is an exclusion zone to stop boats coming IN.
> 
> However, an exclusion zone, in international waters, would be against international law so, it's just easier for Israel to break international law and blockade Gazan fishermen!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> There is nothing illegal about a blockade.  Perfectly legit form of warfare.  The only time it is illegal is when it is set up in the territorial waters of a neutral nation.
> 
> And what the "fishermen" DO is pick up transfers of smuggled weapons and bring them to shore.  OR, as is the case earlier this month -- they plan attacks on Israeli ships.
Click to expand...


It is abhorrent that any right minded person could consider the blockade legitimate!

You then go on to justify it as a "form of warfare"... You are fucking kidding me!!!

So, please, can you stop bleating about 'attacks' against Israel... Surely, they are legitimate forms of warfare!

Oh no, wait, sorry, I forgot, every piece of BS you post applies ONLY to Israel and how amazing and legitimate Israel is!

However, you, as usual, miss the point because it points out, again, the failing of Israel...

If there has to be an illegal, unjustified blockade then blockade those who try and enter an exclusion zone, NOT those who are going to to feed themselves and their families!

And you are suggesting that a pretty ancient fishing vessel is going out, into open waters, to attack a heavily armed Israeli navy vessel?

Wow, you are really stretching the realms of reality with that one!


----------



## Humanity

rylah said:


> OUT of Gaza? I'm sure You meant INTO Gaza.



I know what I meant!

Blockading fishermen LEAVING Gaza is wrong. Why? Because they aren't smuggling weapons OUT of Gaza are they!!!

Let the fishermen fish where they want and, if Israel has to blockade then blockade boats coming INTO Gaza!

If you engage brain you will see the reality! You should try it some time!


----------



## Humanity

Shusha said:


> all civilians on the field of battle are the responsibility of the sovereign in control of those civilians



That is the biggest bullshit statement I have seen amoungst the rest of the bullshit statements being banded around here by Team Israel!!!


----------



## rylah

Humanity said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> OUT of Gaza? I'm sure You meant INTO Gaza.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I know what I meant!
> 
> Blockading fishermen LEAVING Gaza is wrong. Why? Because they aren't smuggling weapons OUT of Gaza are they!!!
> 
> Let the fishermen fish where they want and, if Israel has to blockade then blockade boats coming INTO Gaza!
> 
> If you engage brain you will see the reality! You should try it some time!
Click to expand...


The trafficking doesn't come directly by boats but under the surface. The further Gazan smugglers are allowed to reach the harder it is to oversee, and exposure to a greater potential of an international provocation.

Neither Israel nor Egypt owe anything to the Gazans. They were suggested a port with oil and airport, they refused - WHY? because Jews.

Their problem, we're not naive. When and if they wise up and get their act together, in some 2 decades, they can start attempting to explain why they deserve peace from us, or anything. Not the other way around.

There's no other way to deal with suicidal racketeers. Read about Hudna.


----------



## Shusha

Humanity said:


> It is abhorrent that any right minded person could consider the blockade legitimate!



What I said was that blockades are legal in international law. It's a statement of fact. 

But I find it interesting you label that abhorrent and yet refuse to label lethal weapons like IEDS as aborrent.


----------



## Shusha

Humanity said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> all civilians on the field of battle are the responsibility of the sovereign in control of those civilians
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That is the biggest bullshit statement I have seen amoungst the rest of the bullshit statements being banded around here by Team Israel!!!
Click to expand...


It's another point of international law.


----------



## RoccoR

RE:  Israeli forces shoot unarmed protesters from across Gaza security fence, killing at least 15
※→ Coyote, _et al,_

Your observation and analysis are, stand-alone, very true.  But there are two sides to the one facet, tied to the many facets here.

Clearly, Israel is NOT the unassailable actor in the Region; nor is it the poster child for narcissistic behaviors.  At face value, the Israelis would rather like other nations and cultures to be envious of their accomplishments and achievements, which stand on their own merit.  But those accomplishments and achievements mean very little when they constantly under allegation one regional neighbor or another for some outrage --- something almost impossible to defend against.

And while the Israeli’s dislike the constant and intense criticisms and are reluctant to take responsibility for any adverse events without a thorough understanding of the facts, the Israeli’s know that it is foolish to hold the position that they are never in the wrong → or → do not make mistakes.



Coyote said:


> I doubt the Palestinians killed him.  Israel is not denying they shot him.  Sometimes Rocco, Israel’s actions ARE wrong.  They are no more the perpetual victim then the Pali’s, and sometimes the Palestinians are right. There is the frequent refrain that Israel is always evil...but you ignore the other refrain that Israel can do no wrong.


*(COMMENT)*

I am probably more wrong, for trying to defend the national home of a people that have been under constant criticism since it was agreed upon by the Principle Allied Powers of the Great War, nearly a century ago. 

In the scheme of things, the Israelis know that as far as the security situations go _(with a beginning a middle and an end)_, they are just entering the downhill slalom of a 100 years war.  They are caught in a continuous history of a series of endless cycle persecution and prosperity with a diminishing number of their kind at the end of each cycle.  And as they turn into the very first shadow of the persecution phase, knowing that there is nothing they can do to stop it happening, they can look down the line of possible alternative and the decision potentials, each more perilous than the next, they know, that in the end, they will once again stand alone; like the thousand times previously they have been expelled.  

Are the Arab Palestinians always wrong?  That is a statistical impossibility.  The problem _(who's right - who's wrong)_ rests in probabilities, but every time a criminal event occurs, it’s big news.  And without regard to - who did what to whom — it can _(and often does)_ spark large and rough protests by those who want the Jewish footprint in the occupied territories to shrink; if not disappear completely.

In the case of the recent protest along the border, it is virtually impossible for any more than 3% of them to be a possible Right of Return candidate.   You would have to be 70+ years old.  So there must be a_ (very high probability that there exists)_ strong yet hidden agenda.  Making it more probable that the Arab Palestinians had something to do with the shooting of the Journalist.

But yes, probably the reason that the Israelis have been so quiet on the matter is that the potential for a positive impression is better than saying anything.

Your observation and analysis are, stand-alone, very true.

Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## Humanity

Shusha said:


> Humanity said:
> 
> 
> 
> It is abhorrent that any right minded person could consider the blockade legitimate!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What I said was that blockades are legal in international law. It's a statement of fact.
> 
> But I find it interesting you label that abhorrent and yet refuse to label lethal weapons like IEDS as aborrent.
Click to expand...


Collective punishment is in breach of international and humanitarian law!

The Israeli blockade is collective punishment!

Thus, the blockades are illegal.

I know it hurts Team Israel to be shown that, well, actually, Israel is NOT always on the right side of the law!


----------



## Humanity

Shusha said:


> Humanity said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> all civilians on the field of battle are the responsibility of the sovereign in control of those civilians
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That is the biggest bullshit statement I have seen amoungst the rest of the bullshit statements being banded around here by Team Israel!!!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> It's another point of international law.
Click to expand...


Incredible Shusha...

Seems that you can ONLY apply international law when it suits Israel. If it doesn't suit Israel then it doesn't count!

What a joke!


----------



## Humanity

Shusha said:


> Humanity said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> all civilians on the field of battle are the responsibility of the sovereign in control of those civilians
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That is the biggest bullshit statement I have seen amoungst the rest of the bullshit statements being banded around here by Team Israel!!!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> It's another point of international law.
Click to expand...


I am intrigued though to hear what international law validates what you are saying.

Care to share a link or do you just expect us to believe every word Team Israel spouts?


----------



## Toddsterpatriot

Billo_Really said:


> Toddsterpatriot said:
> 
> 
> 
> Right of return for whom? To where?
> 
> 
> 
> For them, to there.
Click to expand...


They're already there. No need to return.


----------



## Humanity

Shusha said:


> Humanity said:
> 
> 
> 
> It is abhorrent that any right minded person could consider the blockade legitimate!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What I said was that blockades are legal in international law. It's a statement of fact.
> 
> But I find it interesting you label that abhorrent and yet refuse to label lethal weapons like IEDS as aborrent.
Click to expand...


I find it interesting that you DEFEND the murder of unarmed civilians yet you attack me for saying nothing?!?!

I wonder how that works in the real world Shusha, not your rather skewed vision, I mean the real world?


----------



## Indeependent

Humanity said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Humanity said:
> 
> 
> 
> It is abhorrent that any right minded person could consider the blockade legitimate!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What I said was that blockades are legal in international law. It's a statement of fact.
> 
> But I find it interesting you label that abhorrent and yet refuse to label lethal weapons like IEDS as aborrent.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I find it interesting that you DEFEND the murder of unarmed civilians yet you attack me for saying nothing?!?!
> 
> I wonder how that works in the real world Shusha, not your rather skewed vision, I mean the real world?
Click to expand...

So when are you moving to Eastern Gaza?


----------



## Humanity

Indeependent said:


> Humanity said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Humanity said:
> 
> 
> 
> It is abhorrent that any right minded person could consider the blockade legitimate!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What I said was that blockades are legal in international law. It's a statement of fact.
> 
> But I find it interesting you label that abhorrent and yet refuse to label lethal weapons like IEDS as aborrent.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I find it interesting that you DEFEND the murder of unarmed civilians yet you attack me for saying nothing?!?!
> 
> I wonder how that works in the real world Shusha, not your rather skewed vision, I mean the real world?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> So when are you moving to Eastern Gaza?
Click to expand...


When you do


----------



## Indeependent

Humanity said:


> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Humanity said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Humanity said:
> 
> 
> 
> It is abhorrent that any right minded person could consider the blockade legitimate!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What I said was that blockades are legal in international law. It's a statement of fact.
> 
> But I find it interesting you label that abhorrent and yet refuse to label lethal weapons like IEDS as aborrent.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I find it interesting that you DEFEND the murder of unarmed civilians yet you attack me for saying nothing?!?!
> 
> I wonder how that works in the real world Shusha, not your rather skewed vision, I mean the real world?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> So when are you moving to Eastern Gaza?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> When you do
Click to expand...

I’m not the one making up bullshit stories that Jews who live in Israel are murderers.


----------



## Shusha

Humanity said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Humanity said:
> 
> 
> 
> It is abhorrent that any right minded person could consider the blockade legitimate!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What I said was that blockades are legal in international law. It's a statement of fact.
> 
> But I find it interesting you label that abhorrent and yet refuse to label lethal weapons like IEDS as aborrent.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I find it interesting that you DEFEND the murder of unarmed civilians yet you attack me for saying nothing?!?!
> 
> I wonder how that works in the real world Shusha, not your rather skewed vision, I mean the real world?
Click to expand...



I have NEVER defended the killing of unarmed civilians. 

I DO defend Israel's right to protect its border up to and including the use of lethal force when necessary. It becomes necessary when combatants attempt to infiltrate Israel or use lethal weapons against Israelis. 

I DO also require Hamas to be held responsible for activity on their side of the fence including policing and protection of unarmed civilians. 

Our fundamental argument here is that you don't seem to think there is anything BUT unarmed civilians despite plenty of credible evidence to the contrary.


----------



## Coyote

Shusha said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> I am not whining.  I am just pointing out that Israel never gave gave them a chance and you are ignoring that while justifying the blockade.  The blockade was not just.  It went up ahead of any offensive actions towards Israel, because Israel refused to accept the results of the election.  It promptly ended any possibility for peace as effectively as any violence.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The blockade IS perfectly justifiable.  Whether it was a decade ago is immaterial to this discussion, though I'd argue that was then as well.  Hamas was designated a terrorist organization in 2002 by Canada and 2003 by the US.  Hamas stated that it would not recognize Israel, would not make peace with Israel and would not honor existing agreements and treaties with Israel.  All valid reasons to institute a blockade.  Not to mention the fact that Fatah and Hamas were throwing each other off buildings.
> 
> And not only that, it reeks of victim-blaming in the sense, "Its all Israel's fault -- if only they had made peace with a terrorist organization there wouldn't have been any violence".  Again, its reversing cause and effect.  The blockade was a REACTION to a threat to Israel.
> 
> And it doesn't explain or excuse what Hamas should be doing NOW to police its own people and prevent them from making unwarranted and belligerent attacks on Israel.
Click to expand...

I never said it was all Israel's fault.  I said that Israel instituted the blockade upon the election of Hamas. Not upon any escalation of violence but upon the results of an election they did not like . That IS collective punishment.

The situation now, of course has changed but you cannot just view it in a vacuum.Ignore the beginning when it has likely affected what is happening now.


----------



## Shusha

Humanity said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Humanity said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> all civilians on the field of battle are the responsibility of the sovereign in control of those civilians
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That is the biggest bullshit statement I have seen amoungst the rest of the bullshit statements being banded around here by Team Israel!!!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> It's another point of international law.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I am intrigued though to hear what international law validates what you are saying.
> 
> Care to share a link or do you just expect us to believe every word Team Israel spouts?
Click to expand...


No. I expect you to do your own research if you want to discuss international law. It might also be useful to read mine and Rocco's posts.  They are usually pretty informative.


----------



## Shusha

Coyote said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> I am not whining.  I am just pointing out that Israel never gave gave them a chance and you are ignoring that while justifying the blockade.  The blockade was not just.  It went up ahead of any offensive actions towards Israel, because Israel refused to accept the results of the election.  It promptly ended any possibility for peace as effectively as any violence.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The blockade IS perfectly justifiable.  Whether it was a decade ago is immaterial to this discussion, though I'd argue that was then as well.  Hamas was designated a terrorist organization in 2002 by Canada and 2003 by the US.  Hamas stated that it would not recognize Israel, would not make peace with Israel and would not honor existing agreements and treaties with Israel.  All valid reasons to institute a blockade.  Not to mention the fact that Fatah and Hamas were throwing each other off buildings.
> 
> And not only that, it reeks of victim-blaming in the sense, "Its all Israel's fault -- if only they had made peace with a terrorist organization there wouldn't have been any violence".  Again, its reversing cause and effect.  The blockade was a REACTION to a threat to Israel.
> 
> And it doesn't explain or excuse what Hamas should be doing NOW to police its own people and prevent them from making unwarranted and belligerent attacks on Israel.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I never said it was all Israel's fault.  I said that Israel instituted the blockade upon the election of Hamas. Not upon any escalation of violence but upon the results of an election they did not like . That IS collective punishment.
> 
> The situation now, of course has changed but you cannot just view it in a vacuum.Ignore the beginning when it has likely affected what is happening now.
Click to expand...



I know you didn't say that it was Israel's fault. But it has the underlying implication of victim-blaming. 

The blockade was not instituted because a new government was elected. It was instituted because that government refused to recognize Israel. Refused peace with Israel. And declared they would not comply with existing treaties. 

That is part of the vacuum. 

Why shouldn't Hamas be required to police its side of the border fence in order to prevent civilian deaths?  Particularly when they are the instigators of the events.


----------



## Coyote

Shusha said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> I am not whining.  I am just pointing out that Israel never gave gave them a chance and you are ignoring that while justifying the blockade.  The blockade was not just.  It went up ahead of any offensive actions towards Israel, because Israel refused to accept the results of the election.  It promptly ended any possibility for peace as effectively as any violence.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The blockade IS perfectly justifiable.  Whether it was a decade ago is immaterial to this discussion, though I'd argue that was then as well.  Hamas was designated a terrorist organization in 2002 by Canada and 2003 by the US.  Hamas stated that it would not recognize Israel, would not make peace with Israel and would not honor existing agreements and treaties with Israel.  All valid reasons to institute a blockade.  Not to mention the fact that Fatah and Hamas were throwing each other off buildings.
> 
> And not only that, it reeks of victim-blaming in the sense, "Its all Israel's fault -- if only they had made peace with a terrorist organization there wouldn't have been any violence".  Again, its reversing cause and effect.  The blockade was a REACTION to a threat to Israel.
> 
> And it doesn't explain or excuse what Hamas should be doing NOW to police its own people and prevent them from making unwarranted and belligerent attacks on Israel.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I never said it was all Israel's fault.  I said that Israel instituted the blockade upon the election of Hamas. Not upon any escalation of violence but upon the results of an election they did not like . That IS collective punishment.
> 
> The situation now, of course has changed but you cannot just view it in a vacuum.Ignore the beginning when it has likely affected what is happening now.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> I know you didn't say that it was Israel's fault. But it has the underlying implication of victim-blaming.
> 
> The blockade was not instituted because a new government was elected. It was instituted because that government refused to recognize Israel. Refused peace with Israel. And declared they would not comply with existing treaties.
> 
> That is part of the vacuum.
> 
> Why shouldn't Hamas be required to police its side of the border fence in order to prevent civilian deaths?  Particularly when they are the instigators of the events.
Click to expand...

I think it would be odd to demand Hamad comply with policing what they would consider part of a hostile action against them.  But we also know Hamas places little value on life and also apparently infiltrated what was a peaceful protest and ratchetted it up in violence.


----------



## P F Tinmore

Coyote said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> I am not whining.  I am just pointing out that Israel never gave gave them a chance and you are ignoring that while justifying the blockade.  The blockade was not just.  It went up ahead of any offensive actions towards Israel, because Israel refused to accept the results of the election.  It promptly ended any possibility for peace as effectively as any violence.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The blockade IS perfectly justifiable.  Whether it was a decade ago is immaterial to this discussion, though I'd argue that was then as well.  Hamas was designated a terrorist organization in 2002 by Canada and 2003 by the US.  Hamas stated that it would not recognize Israel, would not make peace with Israel and would not honor existing agreements and treaties with Israel.  All valid reasons to institute a blockade.  Not to mention the fact that Fatah and Hamas were throwing each other off buildings.
> 
> And not only that, it reeks of victim-blaming in the sense, "Its all Israel's fault -- if only they had made peace with a terrorist organization there wouldn't have been any violence".  Again, its reversing cause and effect.  The blockade was a REACTION to a threat to Israel.
> 
> And it doesn't explain or excuse what Hamas should be doing NOW to police its own people and prevent them from making unwarranted and belligerent attacks on Israel.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I never said it was all Israel's fault.  I said that Israel instituted the blockade upon the election of Hamas. Not upon any escalation of violence but upon the results of an election they did not like . That IS collective punishment.
> 
> The situation now, of course has changed but you cannot just view it in a vacuum.Ignore the beginning when it has likely affected what is happening now.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> I know you didn't say that it was Israel's fault. But it has the underlying implication of victim-blaming.
> 
> The blockade was not instituted because a new government was elected. It was instituted because that government refused to recognize Israel. Refused peace with Israel. And declared they would not comply with existing treaties.
> 
> That is part of the vacuum.
> 
> Why shouldn't Hamas be required to police its side of the border fence in order to prevent civilian deaths?  Particularly when they are the instigators of the events.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I think it would be odd to demand Hamad comply with policing what they would consider part of a hostile action against them.  But we also know Hamas places little value on life and also apparently infiltrated what was a peaceful protest and ratchetted it up in violence.
Click to expand...

Is that true or is it just something Israel said?


----------



## Indeependent

P F Tinmore said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> I am not whining.  I am just pointing out that Israel never gave gave them a chance and you are ignoring that while justifying the blockade.  The blockade was not just.  It went up ahead of any offensive actions towards Israel, because Israel refused to accept the results of the election.  It promptly ended any possibility for peace as effectively as any violence.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The blockade IS perfectly justifiable.  Whether it was a decade ago is immaterial to this discussion, though I'd argue that was then as well.  Hamas was designated a terrorist organization in 2002 by Canada and 2003 by the US.  Hamas stated that it would not recognize Israel, would not make peace with Israel and would not honor existing agreements and treaties with Israel.  All valid reasons to institute a blockade.  Not to mention the fact that Fatah and Hamas were throwing each other off buildings.
> 
> And not only that, it reeks of victim-blaming in the sense, "Its all Israel's fault -- if only they had made peace with a terrorist organization there wouldn't have been any violence".  Again, its reversing cause and effect.  The blockade was a REACTION to a threat to Israel.
> 
> And it doesn't explain or excuse what Hamas should be doing NOW to police its own people and prevent them from making unwarranted and belligerent attacks on Israel.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I never said it was all Israel's fault.  I said that Israel instituted the blockade upon the election of Hamas. Not upon any escalation of violence but upon the results of an election they did not like . That IS collective punishment.
> 
> The situation now, of course has changed but you cannot just view it in a vacuum.Ignore the beginning when it has likely affected what is happening now.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> I know you didn't say that it was Israel's fault. But it has the underlying implication of victim-blaming.
> 
> The blockade was not instituted because a new government was elected. It was instituted because that government refused to recognize Israel. Refused peace with Israel. And declared they would not comply with existing treaties.
> 
> That is part of the vacuum.
> 
> Why shouldn't Hamas be required to police its side of the border fence in order to prevent civilian deaths?  Particularly when they are the instigators of the events.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I think it would be odd to demand Hamad comply with policing what they would consider part of a hostile action against them.  But we also know Hamas places little value on life and also apparently infiltrated what was a peaceful protest and ratchetted it up in violence.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Is that true or is it just something Israel said?
Click to expand...

There’s a user named Israel?


----------



## Humanity

Indeependent said:


> Humanity said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Humanity said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Humanity said:
> 
> 
> 
> It is abhorrent that any right minded person could consider the blockade legitimate!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What I said was that blockades are legal in international law. It's a statement of fact.
> 
> But I find it interesting you label that abhorrent and yet refuse to label lethal weapons like IEDS as aborrent.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I find it interesting that you DEFEND the murder of unarmed civilians yet you attack me for saying nothing?!?!
> 
> I wonder how that works in the real world Shusha, not your rather skewed vision, I mean the real world?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> So when are you moving to Eastern Gaza?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> When you do
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I’m not the one making up bullshit stories that Jews who live in Israel are murderers.
Click to expand...


Oh I see...

You are yet another Team Israel member (yes you can take that literally) who makes shit up!

Wanna show me where I have said all Jews are murderers?

I'll wait....

It's ok, I'm used to waiting for Team Israel to come back to me with anything!


----------



## Indeependent

Humanity said:


> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Humanity said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Humanity said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> What I said was that blockades are legal in international law. It's a statement of fact.
> 
> But I find it interesting you label that abhorrent and yet refuse to label lethal weapons like IEDS as aborrent.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I find it interesting that you DEFEND the murder of unarmed civilians yet you attack me for saying nothing?!?!
> 
> I wonder how that works in the real world Shusha, not your rather skewed vision, I mean the real world?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> So when are you moving to Eastern Gaza?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> When you do
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I’m not the one making up bullshit stories that Jews who live in Israel are murderers.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Oh I see...
> 
> You are yet another Team Israel member (yes you can take that literally) who makes shit up!
> 
> Wanna show me where I have said all Jews are murderers?
> 
> I'll wait....
> 
> It's ok, I'm used to waiting for Team Israel to come back to me with anything!
Click to expand...

You mean you’re only *joking* when you criticize Israel defending itself against people who are infamous for wearing *homicide* belts?
Whew!


----------



## Billo_Really

Coyote said:


> Lllll
> 
> errrr not really Billo....


If I'm wrong, then Josef Goebbels was just a janitor.


----------



## Billo_Really

Coyote said:


> What has Hamas invested into the Gaza economy?  Besides tunnels and rockets?


Hamas is not the "terrorist only" organization many people claim it to be.

_*Hamas Social institutions*   include charitable societies, schools, community outreach programs, libraries, research centers, orphanage programs, day care centers, women’s centers, youth centers, homes for the elderly, specialized care centers, health clinics, summer camps, Islamic committees in the refugee camps of the Gaza Strip, and zakat committees. 

 Hamas Economic institutions include investment companies, banks, retail businesses, factories, and private entrepreneurs._ ​Hamas has been steadily moving away from its terrorist roots for some time now.


----------



## Billo_Really

Hollie said:


> Israel's response to acts of war from islamic terrorists are hardly war crimes.


Protesting the illegal and immoral occupation, is not an act of war.


----------



## Billo_Really

rylah said:


> The minimum needed to keep receiving more aid and keep the struggle, all the luxury in Gaza is coming from Emirates money because they're more strict about the spending.
> 
> So I suggest  that a better question is how much peanuts have been diverted from Hamas pockets to the people on the order of Qatar, and who else is in power to influence Hamas.. or make them irrelevant?


Gaza is the new Warsaw Ghetto.


----------



## Hollie

Billo_Really said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> The minimum needed to keep receiving more aid and keep the struggle, all the luxury in Gaza is coming from Emirates money because they're more strict about the spending.
> 
> So I suggest  that a better question is how much peanuts have been diverted from Hamas pockets to the people on the order of Qatar, and who else is in power to influence Hamas.. or make them irrelevant?
> 
> 
> 
> Gaza is the new Warsaw Ghetto.
Click to expand...


Such silly melodrama.


----------



## rylah

Billo_Really said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> The minimum needed to keep receiving more aid and keep the struggle, all the luxury in Gaza is coming from Emirates money because they're more strict about the spending.
> 
> So I suggest  that a better question is how much peanuts have been diverted from Hamas pockets to the people on the order of Qatar, and who else is in power to influence Hamas.. or make them irrelevant?
> 
> 
> 
> Gaza is the new Warsaw Ghetto.
Click to expand...


Is it, it thought the Warsaw Ghetto was supposed to be full of Jews...


Talking about ghetto:


----------



## ILOVEISRAEL

Billo_Really said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> Sweetheart if you were putting bombs on you all's OWN fences I'd have no problem.  Israel is not invading Gaza. Other way around.
> 
> 
> 
> Israeli snipers are deliberately shooting unarmed Palestinian's on Palestinian soil.  That's an invasion.
Click to expand...




Billo_Really said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> Sweetheart if you were putting bombs on you all's OWN fences I'd have no problem.  Israel is not invading Gaza. Other way around.
> 
> 
> 
> Israeli snipers are deliberately shooting unarmed Palestinian's on
> Palestinian soil.  That's an invasion.
Click to expand...


Israeli Snipers are deliberately targeting innocent unarmed Palestinians? Link please.Even if it were true, I wouldn’t give s it l
Shit


Humanity said:


> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Humanity said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Humanity said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> What I said was that blockades are legal in international law. It's a statement of fact.
> 
> But I find it interesting you label that abhorrent and yet refuse to label lethal weapons like IEDS as aborrent.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I find it interesting that you DEFEND the murder of unarmed civilians yet you attack me for saying nothing?!?!
> 
> I wonder how that works in the real world Shusha, not your rather skewed vision, I mean the real world?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> So when are you moving to Eastern Gaza?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> When you do
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I’m not the one making up bullshit stories that Jews who live in Israel are murderers.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Oh I see...
> 
> You are yet another Team Israel member (yes you can take that literally) who makes shit up!
> 
> Wanna show me where I have said all Jews are murderers?
> 
> I'll wait....
> 
> It's ok, I'm used to waiting for Team Israel to come back to me with anything!
Click to expand...



Just more proof that Team Palestine are liars . In another post he was concerned about the rights of Palestinians at the Gaza border despite the Violence they ensued. He even had the CHUTPAH to mention “ International Law” and the Geneva Convention. 
    When I referred to those Israeli Soldiers literally being torn to death with those Animals proudly displaying their blood soaked Hands ,yet there was no mention of “ International 
 Law “ or the Geneva Convention throughout the world or on the board there is no response.
 I’m used to Team Palestine “s silent Voice of approval which is why they don’t come back to me with anything


----------



## ForeverYoung436

Humanity said:


> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Humanity said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Humanity said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> What I said was that blockades are legal in international law. It's a statement of fact.
> 
> But I find it interesting you label that abhorrent and yet refuse to label lethal weapons like IEDS as aborrent.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I find it interesting that you DEFEND the murder of unarmed civilians yet you attack me for saying nothing?!?!
> 
> I wonder how that works in the real world Shusha, not your rather skewed vision, I mean the real world?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> So when are you moving to Eastern Gaza?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> When you do
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I’m not the one making up bullshit stories that Jews who live in Israel are murderers.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Oh I see...
> 
> You are yet another Team Israel member (yes you can take that literally) who makes shit up!
> 
> Wanna show me where I have said all Jews are murderers?
> 
> I'll wait....
> 
> It's ok, I'm used to waiting for Team Israel to come back to me with anything!
Click to expand...

 
ILOVEISRAEL said that You said that Jews living in Israel are murderers.  Not all Jews live in Israel.  Therefore, Humanity, your accusation against ILOVEISRAEL is false.


----------



## Coyote

Billo_Really said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> What has Hamas invested into the Gaza economy?  Besides tunnels and rockets?
> 
> 
> 
> Hamas is not the "terrorist only" organization many people claim it to be.
> 
> _*Hamas Social institutions*   include charitable societies, schools, community outreach programs, libraries, research centers, orphanage programs, day care centers, women’s centers, youth centers, homes for the elderly, specialized care centers, health clinics, summer camps, Islamic committees in the refugee camps of the Gaza Strip, and zakat committees.
> 
> Hamas Economic institutions include investment companies, banks, retail businesses, factories, and private entrepreneurs._​Hamas has been steadily moving away from its terrorist roots for some time now.
Click to expand...

Hamas would be more credible if it acknowledged Israel’s right to exist.


----------



## rylah

Coyote said:


> Billo_Really said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> What has Hamas invested into the Gaza economy?  Besides tunnels and rockets?
> 
> 
> 
> Hamas is not the "terrorist only" organization many people claim it to be.
> 
> _*Hamas Social institutions*   include charitable societies, schools, community outreach programs, libraries, research centers, orphanage programs, day care centers, women’s centers, youth centers, homes for the elderly, specialized care centers, health clinics, summer camps, Islamic committees in the refugee camps of the Gaza Strip, and zakat committees.
> 
> Hamas Economic institutions include investment companies, banks, retail businesses, factories, and private entrepreneurs._​Hamas has been steadily moving away from its terrorist roots for some time now.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Hamas would be more credible if it acknowledged Israel’s right to exist.
Click to expand...


You know what, let's leave the acknowledgement aside for a sec,
Let them first divert at least half of what he listed out of suicidal Jihad:

Let the charitable societies be charity not for martyred militants but for those who want life,
Let the summer camps be summer camps and not Jihad training and indoctrination centers for kids.
Let the schools be a place where they are learn to question rather than recite martyr songs.
Let the health clinics and hospitals work without hiding ammunition in them
Let the research centers become hubs of innovation rather than laboratories of rockets.


We can surely live without their recognition, they need it more that us.
What they need is to come to senses first...


----------



## P F Tinmore

Coyote said:


> Billo_Really said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> What has Hamas invested into the Gaza economy?  Besides tunnels and rockets?
> 
> 
> 
> Hamas is not the "terrorist only" organization many people claim it to be.
> 
> _*Hamas Social institutions*   include charitable societies, schools, community outreach programs, libraries, research centers, orphanage programs, day care centers, women’s centers, youth centers, homes for the elderly, specialized care centers, health clinics, summer camps, Islamic committees in the refugee camps of the Gaza Strip, and zakat committees.
> 
> Hamas Economic institutions include investment companies, banks, retail businesses, factories, and private entrepreneurs._​Hamas has been steadily moving away from its terrorist roots for some time now.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Hamas would be more credible if it acknowledged Israel’s right to exist.
Click to expand...

Is that another Israeli talking point?


----------



## Coyote

P F Tinmore said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Billo_Really said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> What has Hamas invested into the Gaza economy?  Besides tunnels and rockets?
> 
> 
> 
> Hamas is not the "terrorist only" organization many people claim it to be.
> 
> _*Hamas Social institutions*   include charitable societies, schools, community outreach programs, libraries, research centers, orphanage programs, day care centers, women’s centers, youth centers, homes for the elderly, specialized care centers, health clinics, summer camps, Islamic committees in the refugee camps of the Gaza Strip, and zakat committees.
> 
> Hamas Economic institutions include investment companies, banks, retail businesses, factories, and private entrepreneurs._​Hamas has been steadily moving away from its terrorist roots for some time now.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Hamas would be more credible if it acknowledged Israel’s right to exist.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Is that another Israeli talking point?
Click to expand...

Nope.


----------



## Shusha

Billo_Really said:


> Gaza is the new Warsaw Ghetto.



You are either appallingly ignorant or exceedingly vile. 

The Warsaw Ghetto saw 70% of the people exterminated. Another 25% were starved to death. 

They were compelled to hand over thousands of people at a time including all the children under ten, the sick and elderly. 

The comparison is sickening.


----------



## Shusha

And today the unarmed civilians came unarmed with machine guns.


----------



## Humanity

Indeependent said:


> Humanity said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Humanity said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Humanity said:
> 
> 
> 
> I find it interesting that you DEFEND the murder of unarmed civilians yet you attack me for saying nothing?!?!
> 
> I wonder how that works in the real world Shusha, not your rather skewed vision, I mean the real world?
> 
> 
> 
> So when are you moving to Eastern Gaza?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> When you do
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I’m not the one making up bullshit stories that Jews who live in Israel are murderers.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Oh I see...
> 
> You are yet another Team Israel member (yes you can take that literally) who makes shit up!
> 
> Wanna show me where I have said all Jews are murderers?
> 
> I'll wait....
> 
> It's ok, I'm used to waiting for Team Israel to come back to me with anything!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You mean you’re only *joking* when you criticize Israel defending itself against people who are infamous for wearing *homicide* belts?
> Whew!
Click to expand...


You see...

Your typical Team Israel nonsense of criticize Israel you hate Jews or criticize Israel and you are an anti semite is exactly that, nonsense!

Israel is NOT the blameless, faultless entity that you Team Israel fools believe it is!


----------



## Humanity

ILOVEISRAEL said:


> Billo_Really said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> Sweetheart if you were putting bombs on you all's OWN fences I'd have no problem.  Israel is not invading Gaza. Other way around.
> 
> 
> 
> Israeli snipers are deliberately shooting unarmed Palestinian's on Palestinian soil.  That's an invasion.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Billo_Really said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> Sweetheart if you were putting bombs on you all's OWN fences I'd have no problem.  Israel is not invading Gaza. Other way around.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Israeli snipers are deliberately shooting unarmed Palestinian's on
> Palestinian soil.  That's an invasion.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Israeli Snipers are deliberately targeting innocent unarmed Palestinians? Link please.Even if it were true, I wouldn’t give s it l
> Shit
> 
> 
> Humanity said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Humanity said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Humanity said:
> 
> 
> 
> I find it interesting that you DEFEND the murder of unarmed civilians yet you attack me for saying nothing?!?!
> 
> I wonder how that works in the real world Shusha, not your rather skewed vision, I mean the real world?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> So when are you moving to Eastern Gaza?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> When you do
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I’m not the one making up bullshit stories that Jews who live in Israel are murderers.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Oh I see...
> 
> You are yet another Team Israel member (yes you can take that literally) who makes shit up!
> 
> Wanna show me where I have said all Jews are murderers?
> 
> I'll wait....
> 
> It's ok, I'm used to waiting for Team Israel to come back to me with anything!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Just more proof that Team Palestine are liars . In another post he was concerned about the rights of Palestinians at the Gaza border despite the Violence they ensued. He even had the CHUTPAH to mention “ International Law” and the Geneva Convention.
> When I referred to those Israeli Soldiers literally being torn to death with those Animals proudly displaying their blood soaked Hands ,yet there was no mention of “ International
> Law “ or the Geneva Convention throughout the world or on the board there is no response.
> I’m used to Team Palestine “s silent Voice of approval which is why they don’t come back to me with anything
Click to expand...


Idiot!

Links have been posted showing IDF murdering Palestinians but, as you say, you don't give a shit so you choose to ignore them... Who's the animal again?

I referred to international laws and Geneva conventions in relation to a team israel post trying to use both as some kind of defense for murdering innocent, unarmed Palestinians... Which, let's be honest, is hilarious! When Israel starts following international law and Geneva conventions THEN you can use it as a defense! Until then STFU fool!


----------



## Humanity

ForeverYoung436 said:


> Humanity said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Humanity said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Humanity said:
> 
> 
> 
> I find it interesting that you DEFEND the murder of unarmed civilians yet you attack me for saying nothing?!?!
> 
> I wonder how that works in the real world Shusha, not your rather skewed vision, I mean the real world?
> 
> 
> 
> So when are you moving to Eastern Gaza?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> When you do
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I’m not the one making up bullshit stories that Jews who live in Israel are murderers.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Oh I see...
> 
> You are yet another Team Israel member (yes you can take that literally) who makes shit up!
> 
> Wanna show me where I have said all Jews are murderers?
> 
> I'll wait....
> 
> It's ok, I'm used to waiting for Team Israel to come back to me with anything!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> ILOVEISRAEL said that You said that Jews living in Israel are murderers.  Not all Jews live in Israel.  Therefore, Humanity, your accusation against ILOVEISRAEL is false.
Click to expand...


Oh dear, don't get dragged into the brainless BS of others...

Unless of course, YOU want to show me where I said all Jews are murderers?

And I have the day off work today so.... I will wait...


----------



## Humanity

rylah said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Billo_Really said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> What has Hamas invested into the Gaza economy?  Besides tunnels and rockets?
> 
> 
> 
> Hamas is not the "terrorist only" organization many people claim it to be.
> 
> _*Hamas Social institutions*   include charitable societies, schools, community outreach programs, libraries, research centers, orphanage programs, day care centers, women’s centers, youth centers, homes for the elderly, specialized care centers, health clinics, summer camps, Islamic committees in the refugee camps of the Gaza Strip, and zakat committees.
> 
> Hamas Economic institutions include investment companies, banks, retail businesses, factories, and private entrepreneurs._​Hamas has been steadily moving away from its terrorist roots for some time now.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Hamas would be more credible if it acknowledged Israel’s right to exist.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You know what, let's leave the acknowledgement aside for a sec,
> Let them first divert at least half of what he listed out of suicidal Jihad:
> 
> Let the charitable societies be charity not for martyred militants but for those who want life,
> Let the summer camps be summer camps and not Jihad training and indoctrination centers for kids.
> Let the schools be a place where they are learn to question rather than recite martyr songs.
> Let the health clinics and hospitals work without hiding ammunition in them
> Let the research centers become hubs of innovation rather than laboratories of rockets.
> 
> 
> We can surely live without their recognition, they need it more that us.
> What they need is to come to senses first...
Click to expand...


----------



## Humanity

Shusha said:


> And today the unarmed civilians came unarmed with machine guns.



We will just skip over the previous days IDF murders then....

Yeah, is better for Team Israel


----------



## P F Tinmore

Coyote said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Billo_Really said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> What has Hamas invested into the Gaza economy?  Besides tunnels and rockets?
> 
> 
> 
> Hamas is not the "terrorist only" organization many people claim it to be.
> 
> _*Hamas Social institutions*   include charitable societies, schools, community outreach programs, libraries, research centers, orphanage programs, day care centers, women’s centers, youth centers, homes for the elderly, specialized care centers, health clinics, summer camps, Islamic committees in the refugee camps of the Gaza Strip, and zakat committees.
> 
> Hamas Economic institutions include investment companies, banks, retail businesses, factories, and private entrepreneurs._​Hamas has been steadily moving away from its terrorist roots for some time now.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Hamas would be more credible if it acknowledged Israel’s right to exist.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Is that another Israeli talking point?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Nope.
Click to expand...

Why is Israel the only country with that talking point?


----------



## rylah

Humanity said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Billo_Really said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> What has Hamas invested into the Gaza economy?  Besides tunnels and rockets?
> 
> 
> 
> Hamas is not the "terrorist only" organization many people claim it to be.
> 
> _*Hamas Social institutions*   include charitable societies, schools, community outreach programs, libraries, research centers, orphanage programs, day care centers, women’s centers, youth centers, homes for the elderly, specialized care centers, health clinics, summer camps, Islamic committees in the refugee camps of the Gaza Strip, and zakat committees.
> 
> Hamas Economic institutions include investment companies, banks, retail businesses, factories, and private entrepreneurs._​Hamas has been steadily moving away from its terrorist roots for some time now.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Hamas would be more credible if it acknowledged Israel’s right to exist.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You know what, let's leave the acknowledgement aside for a sec,
> Let them first divert at least half of what he listed out of suicidal Jihad:
> 
> Let the charitable societies be charity not for martyred militants but for those who want life,
> Let the summer camps be summer camps and not Jihad training and indoctrination centers for kids.
> Let the schools be a place where they are learn to question rather than recite martyr songs.
> Let the health clinics and hospitals work without hiding ammunition in them
> Let the research centers become hubs of innovation rather than laboratories of rockets.
> 
> 
> We can surely live without their recognition, they need it more that us.
> What they need is to come to senses first...
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


Are serious, or just automatically calling everyone  a liar?
You never saw Hamas firing rockets from Hospitals? Never saw Hamas summer camps?



*UK funding 33,000 teachers promoting jihad & martyrdom in Palestine schools, minister admits*

Millions in UK taxpayer money being spent on helping Palestinians is also funding schools teaching a curriculum that promotes martyrdom and jihad against Israel, a government minister has confirmed.
In his answers given to the UK Parliament, Minister of State for International Development Alistair Burt confirmed that British taxpayers’ money is funding the wages of some 33,000 teachers who use the new curriculum.   

Earlier last week, Burt said that “_all of their [the Palestinian Authority’s] schools in the West Bank are using the revised 2017 PA curriculum. UK-funded public servants and teachers … are therefore involved,”_the Sunday Times cited him as saying, adding that £20 million (US$24.6 million) was spent on supporting Palestinians last year alone.

Study material from the schools in Palestine pushes children toward violence, a review by the Institute for Monitoring Peace and Cultural Tolerance in School Education (IMPACT-se) discovered back in October 2017. It said the school program not only demonized Israel but also _“provided a rationale for war.”_

_"The curriculum exerts pressure over young Palestinians to acts of violence in a more extensive and sophisticated manner_," IMPACT-se wrote. "_*The discourse is couched in terms of nationalist and religious martyrdom, *across science, literature, history and religious education textbooks."_ The report provides numerous illustrations supporting the claim. It describes how violence has even penetrated physics textbooks.
UK funding 33,000 teachers promoting jihad & martyrdom in Palestine schools, minister admits

Kid's martyr song:
*Girl:* _" When we die as martyrs we'll go to heaven..."_
*Adult: *_"Children You have fulfilled Your religious obligation" _


Q. Was this question an attempt to make a point for Team "I don't see a Swastika in my yard"?


----------



## Humanity

rylah said:


> Are serious



Yeah I am...

What did you want? Everyone to just accept your list as god given truth?

You make a claim you back it up! That's the way it works dummy!


----------



## rylah

Humanity said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> Are serious
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah I am...
> 
> What did you want? Everyone to just accept your list as god given truth?
> 
> You make a claim you back it up! That's the way it works dummy!
Click to expand...


And all You do is delete it? So now You want to censor the message they teach Palestinian kids, look at Your avatar humanity...

Is it because there's no sad kitten's face to appeal to in Jihad?


Gaza kids in Mujahideen "summer camp"...


Humanity there were times when I could agree with You, now You just don't make sense with this infantile self defeating denial. I saw everything I need in that Swastika on the eve of Holocaust day, and I've heard enough about the peaceful intentions of the march from Hamas.

Get it through Your thick skull - NO ONE owes Gazans ANYTHING. And they should better start thinking whether Hamas deserves peace from Gazans themselves, before they prove it to their neighbors, not the other way around.


----------



## Coyote

P F Tinmore said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Billo_Really said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> What has Hamas invested into the Gaza economy?  Besides tunnels and rockets?
> 
> 
> 
> Hamas is not the "terrorist only" organization many people claim it to be.
> 
> _*Hamas Social institutions*   include charitable societies, schools, community outreach programs, libraries, research centers, orphanage programs, day care centers, women’s centers, youth centers, homes for the elderly, specialized care centers, health clinics, summer camps, Islamic committees in the refugee camps of the Gaza Strip, and zakat committees.
> 
> Hamas Economic institutions include investment companies, banks, retail businesses, factories, and private entrepreneurs._​Hamas has been steadily moving away from its terrorist roots for some time now.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Hamas would be more credible if it acknowledged Israel’s right to exist.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Is that another Israeli talking point?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Nope.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Why is Israel the only country with that talking point?
Click to expand...

Because it is the only country I am aware of where others staunchly refuse its right to exist despite its existence.  I don’t see how peace between two entities is possible without at least a mutual recognition do you?


----------



## Coyote

rylah said:


> Humanity said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> Are serious
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah I am...
> 
> What did you want? Everyone to just accept your list as god given truth?
> 
> You make a claim you back it up! That's the way it works dummy!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> And all You do is delete it? So now You want to censor the message they teach Palestinian kids, look at Your avatar humanity...
> 
> Is it because there's no sad kitten's face to appeal to in Jihad?
> 
> 
> Gaza kids in Mujahideen "summer camp"...
> 
> 
> Humanity there were times when I could agree with You, now You just don't make sense with this infantile self defeating denial. I saw everything I need in that Swastika on the eve of Holocaust day, and I've heard enough about the peaceful intentions of the march from Hamas.
> 
> Get it through Your thick skull - NO ONE owes Gazans ANYTHING. And they should better start thinking whether Hamas deserves peace from Gazans themselves, before they prove it to their neighbors, not the other way around.
Click to expand...



Not all the Palestinian summer camps for children are violent, in fact why is it things like this are never brought up?   

Summer Camp Means Healthy Fun for Gaza Children - Anera


----------



## Indeependent

Coyote said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Humanity said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> Are serious
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah I am...
> 
> What did you want? Everyone to just accept your list as god given truth?
> 
> You make a claim you back it up! That's the way it works dummy!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> And all You do is delete it? So now You want to censor the message they teach Palestinian kids, look at Your avatar humanity...
> 
> Is it because there's no sad kitten's face to appeal to in Jihad?
> 
> 
> Gaza kids in Mujahideen "summer camp"...
> 
> 
> Humanity there were times when I could agree with You, now You just don't make sense with this infantile self defeating denial. I saw everything I need in that Swastika on the eve of Holocaust day, and I've heard enough about the peaceful intentions of the march from Hamas.
> 
> Get it through Your thick skull - NO ONE owes Gazans ANYTHING. And they should better start thinking whether Hamas deserves peace from Gazans themselves, before they prove it to their neighbors, not the other way around.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Not all the Palestinian summer camps for children are violent, in fact why is it things like this are never brought up?
> 
> Summer Camp Means Healthy Fun for Gaza Children - Anera
Click to expand...

Western Gaza is educated, extremely wealthy and non-violent.


----------



## Coyote

There is something very fishy about Liberman’s yet to be substantiated claims about Murtaja.  Not only was he murdered, but they are trying to murder his reputation as well?  This is very disturbing. It also makes all their claims surrounding this protest suspect.

Journalist killed in Gaza had been vetted to receive US funds
JTA - A Gaza journalist shot and killed by Israeli forces during protests at the Gaza border was vetted to receive funds from the U.S. Agency for International Development.

Heather Nauert, the State Department spokeswoman, confirmed on Tuesday the check into Yaser Murtaja’s media company.

“My understanding is that he was vetted according to U.S. Government guidelines,” she said.

Israeli officials, including Defense Minister Avigdor Liberman, had said that Murtaja was a high-ranking official of Hamas, the terrorist group that controls the Gaza Strip. USAID vetting, in the case of Palestinian Arabs, includes checking with Israeli security officials as to whether the applicant has ties to terrorists, Dan Shapiro, a former U.S. ambassador to Israel, told _NPR._

*Hamas and Murtaja’s family and colleagues have denied any association between Murtaja and Hamas. Liberman did not provide evidence for the claim, nor did officials in Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu’s office when they repeated the claim on Twitter. In the past, Israeli authorities have released photos of slain Arabs in Hamas uniform or provided other evidence to support their claims that the dead were legitimate targets.*

Liberman and the officials in Netanyahu’s office failed to attribute the claim to any agency. J_TA_ requests on Twitter to two of Netanyahu’s spokesman to elaborate on their Twitter claims of Murtaja’s Hamas affiliation did not receive replies. The army and intelligence agencies have declined media requests to confirm or deny Liberman’s assertion. The Israel Defense Forces’ General Staff has ordered an investigation into its military’s response to the Gaza border protests.


----------



## Humanity

rylah said:


> look at Your avatar humanity...



You don't like my avatar?

It sums up perfectly what happens when you speak about anything that is contradictory to the Team Israel mantra!


----------



## Humanity

Coyote said:


> There is something very fishy about Liberman’s yet to be substantiated claims about Murtaja.  Not only was he murdered, but they are trying to murder his reputation as well?  This is very disturbing. It also makes all their claims surrounding this protest suspect.
> 
> Journalist killed in Gaza had been vetted to receive US funds
> JTA - A Gaza journalist shot and killed by Israeli forces during protests at the Gaza border was vetted to receive funds from the U.S. Agency for International Development.
> 
> Heather Nauert, the State Department spokeswoman, confirmed on Tuesday the check into Yaser Murtaja’s media company.
> 
> “My understanding is that he was vetted according to U.S. Government guidelines,” she said.
> 
> Israeli officials, including Defense Minister Avigdor Liberman, had said that Murtaja was a high-ranking official of Hamas, the terrorist group that controls the Gaza Strip. USAID vetting, in the case of Palestinian Arabs, includes checking with Israeli security officials as to whether the applicant has ties to terrorists, Dan Shapiro, a former U.S. ambassador to Israel, told _NPR._
> 
> *Hamas and Murtaja’s family and colleagues have denied any association between Murtaja and Hamas. Liberman did not provide evidence for the claim, nor did officials in Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu’s office when they repeated the claim on Twitter. In the past, Israeli authorities have released photos of slain Arabs in Hamas uniform or provided other evidence to support their claims that the dead were legitimate targets.*
> 
> Liberman and the officials in Netanyahu’s office failed to attribute the claim to any agency. J_TA_ requests on Twitter to two of Netanyahu’s spokesman to elaborate on their Twitter claims of Murtaja’s Hamas affiliation did not receive replies. The army and intelligence agencies have declined media requests to confirm or deny Liberman’s assertion. The Israel Defense Forces’ General Staff has ordered an investigation into its military’s response to the Gaza border protests.



I am noticing a change in the Team Israel mantra throughout this thread, it feels that there is a real desire to avoid specifics and simply comment on what, they believe, can be proven.

It has highlighted that, actually, even some more moderate Team Israel members are actually no better than the "animals" they claim to be fighting against. Has Team Israel become 'radicalized'?

Reading some of the Team Israel posts reminds me of conspiracy theorists who believe in a core idea BUT cannot put together a united basis of details.


----------



## Indeependent

Humanity said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> look at Your avatar humanity...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You don't like my avatar?
> 
> It sums up perfectly what happens when you speak about anything that is contradictory to the Team Israel mantra!
Click to expand...

Because Arabs just don’t have a voice!
Their voice is the toilet called the UN.


----------



## rylah

Humanity said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> look at Your avatar humanity...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You don't like my avatar?
> 
> It sums up perfectly what happens when you speak about anything that is contradictory to the Team Israel mantra!
Click to expand...


This is a moronic moral distortion of everything that I've said in this thread.
You're the one who needs infantile mantras to protect Your pink bunny glasses from ever dealing with the depravity on the Gazan side. It is only team Israel with whom a conversation is possible, and it is team Israel that investigates their soldiers and confront their leadership. The only ones You can talk to and who allow opposing views and listen to them.

You on the other hand in team "I don't see a Swastika in my yard", don't even have the  moral courage to quote what I wrote,  You're the one doing censoring here of everything that is not kitten faced emotional extortion - *so shove that pretentious bs where it belongs.*

Go contradict that the march is violent and that it was openly stated as it's aim by their govt, or that the other side has a right to bring guns to the confrontation and use them.
It's either a peaceful demonstration or an open declaration of war/hostilities - there's no middle ground. That You bring music and ice cream to a violent  provocation - doesn't make it a festival.


----------



## Humanity

rylah said:


> This is a moronic moral distortion of everything that I've said in this thread.



Oh? You DO like my avatar then? Thanks 



rylah said:


> Israel that investigates their soldiers and confront their leadership



You are having a laugh now aren't you! April 1st was nearly 2 weeks ago!



rylah said:


> don't even have the moral courage to quote what I wrote



You know how this works don't you? When you see, like above, a quote well, that's a quote of what you said dumbass! Geeze where do we get these people from!



rylah said:


> an open declaration of war/hostilities



Israel would do well to remember that one!



rylah said:


> It is only team Israel with whom a conversation is possible



You should have added, 'only on the condition that you don't disagree with what team israel says and don't criticize anything the IDF/Israel does'.

That's not "conversation"!


----------



## RoccoR

RE:  Israeli forces shoot unarmed protesters from across Gaza security fence, killing at least 15
※→ Shusha, et al,

Don't worry about what this guy (Billo_Really,).  He does not have a clue and his comparisons between GAZA and the Warsaw Ghetto are just so far outside the truth that each time he says it diminishes his credibility that much more.



Shusha said:


> Billo_Really said:
> 
> 
> 
> Gaza is the new Warsaw Ghetto.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You are either appallingly ignorant or exceedingly vile.
> 
> The Warsaw Ghetto saw 70% of the people exterminated. Another 25% were starved to death.
> 
> They were compelled to hand over thousands of people at a time including all the children under ten, the sick and elderly.
> 
> The comparison is sickening.
Click to expand...

*(COMMENT)*

IMO, it is a split vote:


Half - appallingly ignorant
Half - exceedingly vile

Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## RoccoR

RE:  Israeli forces shoot unarmed protesters from across Gaza security fence, killing at least 15 
※→  P F Tinmore, et al,

Don't be so foolish....



P F Tinmore said:


> Why is Israel the only country with that talking point?


*(COMMENT)*

Every executive meeting at the White House, each briefing of every Department Secretary from the third-level supervisor on up, usually has an agenda set - with each aspect covered by "Talking Point."

Israel does not have one single set of talking points and one talking point paper.  Like the United States _(and damn near every other sophisticated nation in the world)_, the talking points _(on a myriad of subjects)_ are constantly being revised, as they are constantly evolving and adapting coming to grips and focusing on the real-world conditions of today and how they will effect the future.  Example of a set of US Talking Points:





 
*Description: *http://leaksource.info/2015/02/16/secret-national-intelligence-council-talking-points-cast-doubt-on-us-governments-public-claims-of-anonymous-threat/ https://twitter.com/LeakSourceInfo​
As a matter of fact, I've often been to governmental meetings in which the deputies and above had a binder with talking points within talking points.  

Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## Shusha

Coyote said:


> Not all the Palestinian summer camps for children are violent, in fact why is it things like this are never brought up?
> 
> Summer Camp Means Healthy Fun for Gaza Children - Anera



Mostly it's not brought up because it's not relevant to the points we try to make. We know not every single Gazan wants to erase Israel or kill Jews.

But there are clearly enough of those which do. And the government is promoting it in the vilest way. And there doesn't seem to be enough on the other side to counter it. As a "March" like this one proves.


----------



## Shusha

Humanity said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> And today the unarmed civilians came unarmed with machine guns.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We will just skip over the previous days IDF murders then....
Click to expand...


You mean like we skipped over the condemnation of Gazan violence?

I would much rather talk about what a proper, restrained response from Israel would look like to Team Palestine. But I can't have that conversation with people who pretend that everyone there is an unarmed civilian since it is a blatant rejection of the truth. 

Maybe Coyote will help me answer that question.


----------



## P F Tinmore

RoccoR said:


> RE:  Israeli forces shoot unarmed protesters from across Gaza security fence, killing at least 15
> ※→  P F Tinmore, et al,
> 
> Don't be so foolish....
> 
> 
> 
> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> Why is Israel the only country with that talking point?
> 
> 
> 
> *(COMMENT)*
> 
> Every executive meeting at the White House, each briefing of every Department Secretary from the third-level supervisor on up, usually has an agenda set - with each aspect covered by "Talking Point."
> 
> Israel does not have one single set of talking points and one talking point paper.  Like the United States _(and damn near every other sophisticated nation in the world)_, the talking points _(on a myriad of subjects)_ are constantly being revised, as they are constantly evolving and adapting coming to grips and focusing on the real-world conditions of today and how they will effect the future.  Example of a set of US Talking Points:
> 
> 
> View attachment 187687
> *Description: *http://leaksource.info/2015/02/16/secret-national-intelligence-council-talking-points-cast-doubt-on-us-governments-public-claims-of-anonymous-threat/ https://twitter.com/LeakSourceInfo​
> As a matter of fact, I've often been to governmental meetings in which the deputies and above had a binder with talking points within talking points.
> 
> Most Respectfully,
> R
Click to expand...

I know, everyone has talking points. Some are legitimate, and some are BS propaganda. My post was about a specific talking point that I view as propaganda.


----------



## P F Tinmore

Shusha said:


> Humanity said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> And today the unarmed civilians came unarmed with machine guns.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We will just skip over the previous days IDF murders then....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You mean like we skipped over the condemnation of Gazan violence?
> 
> I would much rather talk about what a proper, restrained response from Israel would look like to Team Palestine. But I can't have that conversation with people who pretend that everyone there is an unarmed civilian since it is a blatant rejection of the truth.
> 
> Maybe Coyote will help me answer that question.
Click to expand...

I have seen a lot of photos and videos of the protests. I haven't seen any guns.


----------



## P F Tinmore

Shusha said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> Not all the Palestinian summer camps for children are violent, in fact why is it things like this are never brought up?
> 
> Summer Camp Means Healthy Fun for Gaza Children - Anera
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mostly it's not brought up because it's not relevant to the points we try to make. We know not every single Gazan wants to erase Israel or kill Jews.
> 
> But there are clearly enough of those which do. And the government is promoting it in the vilest way. And there doesn't seem to be enough on the other side to counter it. As a "March" like this one proves.
Click to expand...

I haven't seen violence taught in schools except from Israeli propaganda organizations. I take those with a grain of salt.


----------



## Coyote

Shusha said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> Not all the Palestinian summer camps for children are violent, in fact why is it things like this are never brought up?
> 
> Summer Camp Means Healthy Fun for Gaza Children - Anera
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mostly it's not brought up because it's not relevant to the points we try to make. We know not every single Gazan wants to erase Israel or kill Jews.
> 
> But there are clearly enough of those which do. And the government is promoting it in the vilest way. And there doesn't seem to be enough on the other side to counter it. As a "March" like this one proves.
Click to expand...

I think the reason they are not brought up is the same reason that we hear about "melon farmers"  instead of bomb planters.  To show otherwise would destroy the narratives.  On both sides.

And in rge meantime we have a dead journalist who from sll available evidence (not unsubstantiated claims) presented thus far should not have been killed.


----------



## Coyote

Shusha said:


> Humanity said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> And today the unarmed civilians came unarmed with machine guns.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We will just skip over the previous days IDF murders then....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You mean like we skipped over the condemnation of Gazan violence?
> *
> I would much rather talk about what a proper, restrained response from Israel would look like to Team Palestine*. But I can't have that conversation with people who pretend that everyone there is an unarmed civilian since it is a blatant rejection of the truth.
> 
> Maybe Coyote will help me answer that question.
Click to expand...


I think that is a good question.  It seems smoke bombs and teargas would have been a better response than live ammo.


----------



## Shusha

Coyote said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Humanity said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> And today the unarmed civilians came unarmed with machine guns.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We will just skip over the previous days IDF murders then....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You mean like we skipped over the condemnation of Gazan violence?
> *
> I would much rather talk about what a proper, restrained response from Israel would look like to Team Palestine*. But I can't have that conversation with people who pretend that everyone there is an unarmed civilian since it is a blatant rejection of the truth.
> 
> Maybe Coyote will help me answer that question.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I think that is a good question.  It seems smoke bombs and teargas would have been a better response than live ammo.
Click to expand...


They used those things. It did not deter everyone. What then?


----------



## Coyote

Shusha said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Humanity said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> And today the unarmed civilians came unarmed with machine guns.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We will just skip over the previous days IDF murders then....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You mean like we skipped over the condemnation of Gazan violence?
> *
> I would much rather talk about what a proper, restrained response from Israel would look like to Team Palestine*. But I can't have that conversation with people who pretend that everyone there is an unarmed civilian since it is a blatant rejection of the truth.
> 
> Maybe Coyote will help me answer that question.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I think that is a good question.  It seems smoke bombs and teargas would have been a better response than live ammo.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> They used those things. It did not deter everyone. What then?
Click to expand...

increase them.  Add water cannons if avsilable.  Rubber bullets.


----------



## Coyote

Actually after reading this....
Violence Erupts Anew at Gaza-Israel Border in Third Week of Protests

I am not sure what Israel should do because the protesters are trying to tear down the fence.  Israel does have a right to defend it's border.

This illustrates though how desperate things have become in Gaza and peopke will do desperate things when they see no options.


----------



## P F Tinmore

Coyote said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Humanity said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> And today the unarmed civilians came unarmed with machine guns.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We will just skip over the previous days IDF murders then....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You mean like we skipped over the condemnation of Gazan violence?
> *
> I would much rather talk about what a proper, restrained response from Israel would look like to Team Palestine*. But I can't have that conversation with people who pretend that everyone there is an unarmed civilian since it is a blatant rejection of the truth.
> 
> Maybe Coyote will help me answer that question.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I think that is a good question.  It seems smoke bombs and teargas would have been a better response than live ammo.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> They used those things. It did not deter everyone. What then?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> increase them.  Add water cannons if avsilable.  Rubber bullets.
Click to expand...

Why should a protest be "put down?" Shouldn't the Palestinians have free speech?


----------



## Coyote

P F Tinmore said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Humanity said:
> 
> 
> 
> We will just skip over the previous days IDF murders then....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You mean like we skipped over the condemnation of Gazan violence?
> *
> I would much rather talk about what a proper, restrained response from Israel would look like to Team Palestine*. But I can't have that conversation with people who pretend that everyone there is an unarmed civilian since it is a blatant rejection of the truth.
> 
> Maybe Coyote will help me answer that question.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I think that is a good question.  It seems smoke bombs and teargas would have been a better response than live ammo.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> They used those things. It did not deter everyone. What then?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> increase them.  Add water cannons if avsilable.  Rubber bullets.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Why should a protest be "put down?" Shouldn't the Palestinians have free speech?
Click to expand...

Free speech does not extend to property destruction or crashing another country's border.


----------



## P F Tinmore

Coyote said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> You mean like we skipped over the condemnation of Gazan violence?
> *
> I would much rather talk about what a proper, restrained response from Israel would look like to Team Palestine*. But I can't have that conversation with people who pretend that everyone there is an unarmed civilian since it is a blatant rejection of the truth.
> 
> Maybe Coyote will help me answer that question.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think that is a good question.  It seems smoke bombs and teargas would have been a better response than live ammo.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> They used those things. It did not deter everyone. What then?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> increase them.  Add water cannons if avsilable.  Rubber bullets.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Why should a protest be "put down?" Shouldn't the Palestinians have free speech?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Free speech does not extend to property destruction or crashing another country's border.
Click to expand...

How peaceful would those protests be if they were not shot at as a first response. Israel initiated the violence.


----------



## Humanity

Shusha said:


> You mean like we skipped over the condemnation of Gazan violence?



Funny that...

I have never condoned violence by Hamas... You have seen, over the time I have been here, my condemnation of violence by Hamas

Unlike your belief that it's ok for the IDF to shell or shoot unarmed Palestinians... 

That, to me Shusha, is a significant difference. Your 'moderate' stance seems to have changed! Towing the Team Israel line now eh! Good for you!!!


----------



## RoccoR

RE:  Israeli forces shoot unarmed protesters from across Gaza security fence, killing at least 15
※→  Coyote, et al,

Yes, I think that this is an extreme;y important observation and question. 



Coyote said:


> Not all the Palestinian summer camps for children are violent, in fact, why is it things like this are never brought up?
> 
> Summer Camp Means Healthy Fun for Gaza Children - Anera


*(OBSERVATION and OPINION)*

Propaganda in the real-world looks very much like what you see on the US Message Board (USMB).  The initial positions are a "Blacker than Black" (BtB) → *OPPOSING* → "Whiter than White" (WtW).  But are impossible positions to hold.  Just as in the "real world" (RW), both positions begin hugely out-numbered but the outside observers and opponents, start to deteriorate rapidly.  But just as nearly everyone will again that both the ByB and WtW positions _(on any given subject)_ are extremist views, the degree of deterioration _(as they collapse toward each other)_ is dependent on how each of us sees the real world. And that is the rub _('idiom for 'that is the problem')_.

We all know that the Arab Palestinians are NOT, as a tribal culture we see in Gaza and the West Bank in the news today, BtB.  And we all know that the Israelis are NOT, as a reconstituted culture we see in the news today, WtW.  These are axioms found in each RW view.  Our experiences shift our medium RW view to something completely different.  I guarantee you that no HAMAS member or foot soldier in the PIJ, prancing around in "no mans land" off the Israeli border sees the RW the same way as I do.  

While there are people that see the good in everything _(the Mother Theresa Syndrome)_ WtW; it is almost an invisible characteristic.  People walk through it every day and don't notice it or few it.  But the BtB makes noise, we feel it, it is something radically different from what we know to be normal.   And for many of us, the Media shapes our view of the world.  People see the BtB in the gray area faster before they will see a flash of WtW in a gray area.  Compounding this set of conditions is the media focus.  And this is the answer to the question:

*Principles of Media Criticism*
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
_This was written sometime around 1997.  
For a more recent (and more detailed) treatment of the current state of the media._
•  WWW.TRANSPARENCYNOW.COM  •​
■  The fact that most media, today, from news to advertising, rely on spectacle, simplification and exaggeration to grab and hold audiences.​
We would talk more about the WtW events and consequences if the media had a balanced approach, presentation and focus in that direction.  Unfortunately, most media is shifted towards the BtB side of the spectrum of coverage.  That has an impact on our view of the RW.  I came across an observation that I would like to share with you.

“Philosophy is to the real world as masturbation is to sex”​
_.................................................Karl Marks_​

Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## Humanity

Shusha said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Humanity said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> And today the unarmed civilians came unarmed with machine guns.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We will just skip over the previous days IDF murders then....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You mean like we skipped over the condemnation of Gazan violence?
> *
> I would much rather talk about what a proper, restrained response from Israel would look like to Team Palestine*. But I can't have that conversation with people who pretend that everyone there is an unarmed civilian since it is a blatant rejection of the truth.
> 
> Maybe Coyote will help me answer that question.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I think that is a good question.  It seems smoke bombs and teargas would have been a better response than live ammo.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> They used those things. It did not deter everyone. What then?
Click to expand...


Wow really? First time I have heard of THAT!

When was that exactly?

Please, don't expect us to take your word for it... Some links would be very useful (preferably NOT from the IDF)


----------



## Billo_Really

rylah said:


> Is it, it thought the Warsaw Ghetto was supposed to be full of Jews...
> 
> 
> Talking about ghetto:


Palestinians are the new Jews.


----------



## Billo_Really

ILOVEISRAEL said:


> Israeli Snipers are deliberately targeting innocent unarmed Palestinians? Link please.Even if it were true, I wouldn’t give s it l
> Shit


Then why did you ask for the link?

You need a link to see what the rest of the world has been seeing for the past two weeks?


----------



## RoccoR

RE: Israeli forces shoot unarmed protesters from across Gaza security fence, killing at least 15
※→ Coyote, et al,

That is the focus of the continuous demonstration.



Coyote said:


> Actually after reading this....
> Violence Erupts Anew at Gaza-Israel Border in Third Week of Protests
> 
> I am not sure what Israel should do because the protesters are trying to tear down the fence.  Israel does have a right to defend it's border.
> 
> This illustrates though how desperate things have become in Gaza and peopke will do desperate things when they see no options.


*(COMMENT)*

The intent is to create a violence confrontation, for its media effect. HAMAS want the Image of Israel to be a monsterous view of an oppressor.  Remember, HAMAS want the Coalitions Governments to military engage Israel.  And they need a horrendous event to make that happen.

Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## Billo_Really

Coyote said:


> Hamas would be more credible if it acknowledged Israel’s right to exist.


Israel is actively trying to snuff out Hamas, yet Hamas must first recognize Israel's right to exist?  I'm bothered by this for two reasons: 1)  Israel exists.  It's already there.  Why acknowledge its there, when everyone can see it there?  And 2)  States don't have rights, people do.

The first step is for Israel to end the occupation.


----------



## Billo_Really

Shusha said:


> You are either appallingly ignorant or exceedingly vile.
> 
> The Warsaw Ghetto saw 70% of the people exterminated. Another 25% were starved to death.
> 
> They were compelled to hand over thousands of people at a time including all the children under ten, the sick and elderly.
> 
> The comparison is sickening.


The comparison is also valid.

_"How many times can a man turn his head,
pretending he just doesn't see?"
- Bob Dylan, Blowin' in the Wind_​


----------



## RoccoR

_"Billo_Really,_

I'm not sure you have this right.

_


Billo_Really said:





Coyote said:



			Hamas would be more credible if it acknowledged Israel’s right to exist.
		
Click to expand...

Israel is actively trying to snuff out Hamas, yet Hamas must first recognize Israel's right to exist?  I'm bothered by this for two reasons: 1)  Israel exists.  It's already there.  Why acknowledge its there, when everyone can see it there?  And 2)  States don't have rights, people do.

The first step is for Israel to end the occupation.
		
Click to expand...


Answer to #1:  _
_*ARTICLE 6*

The recognition of a state merely signifies that the state which recognizes it accepts the personality of the other with all the rights and duties determined by international law. Recognition is unconditional and irrevocable.

*ARTICLE 7*
The recognition of a state may be *express or tacit.* The latter results from any act which implies the intention of recognizing the new state._​_

Answer to #2:  Convention on* Rights and Duties of States* signed at Montevideo December 26, 1933;
_
Most Respectfully.
R


----------



## Humanity

RoccoR said:


> HAMAS want the Image of Israel to be a monsterous view of an oppressor



Well, to be fair....

Hamas doesn't have to try too hard does it!

Israel is quite capable of doing that all by themselves!

As was stated some posts ago by Team Israel... It's not clever videoing the murder of an unarmed Palestinian by the IDF, it's just MORE evidence that Israel is a monsterous oppressor! Talk about shooing yourself in the foot and WITHOUT the help of Hamas!


----------



## Toddsterpatriot

Billo_Really said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> Is it, it thought the Warsaw Ghetto was supposed to be full of Jews...
> 
> 
> Talking about ghetto:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Palestinians are the new Jews.
Click to expand...


*Palestinians are the new Jews.
*
Except Jews are successful and Palestinians are losers.


----------



## P F Tinmore

RoccoR said:


> _"Billo_Really,_
> 
> I'm not sure you have this right.
> 
> _
> 
> 
> Billo_Really said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hamas would be more credible if it acknowledged Israel’s right to exist.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Israel is actively trying to snuff out Hamas, yet Hamas must first recognize Israel's right to exist?  I'm bothered by this for two reasons: 1)  Israel exists.  It's already there.  Why acknowledge its there, when everyone can see it there?  And 2)  States don't have rights, people do.
> 
> The first step is for Israel to end the occupation.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Answer to #1:  _
> _*ARTICLE 6*
> 
> The recognition of a state merely signifies that the state which recognizes it accepts the personality of the other with all the rights and duties determined by international law. Recognition is unconditional and irrevocable.
> 
> *ARTICLE 7*
> The recognition of a state may be *express or tacit.* The latter results from any act which implies the intention of recognizing the new state._​_
> 
> Answer to #2:  Convention on* Rights and Duties of States* signed at Montevideo December 26, 1933;
> _
> Most Respectfully.
> R


You are missing a couple articles.

*ARTICLE 4*

States are juridically equal, enjoy the same rights, and have equal capacity in their exercise. The rights of each one do not depend upon the power which it possesses to assure its exercise, but upon the simple fact of its existence as a person under international law.

*ARTICLE 8*
No state has the right to intervene in the internal or external affairs of another.​
Palestine is the poster child of illegal external  interference from world powers. This does not negate their rights as a state.


----------



## ILOVEISRAEL

Humanity said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> 
> HAMAS want the Image of Israel to be a monsterous view of an oppressor
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well, to be fair....
> 
> Hamas doesn't have to try too hard does it!
> 
> Israel is quite capable of doing that all by themselves!
> 
> As was stated some posts ago by Team Israel... It's not clever videoing the murder of an unarmed Palestinian by the IDF, it's just MORE evidence that Israel is a monsterous oppressor! Talk about shooing yourself in the foot and WITHOUT the help of Hamas!
Click to expand...

 
Thread where Israel is shooting at “ innocent” Palestinians . No response from the Pro Pal Team


----------



## Shusha

Coyote said:


> increase them.  Add water cannons if avsilable.  Rubber bullets.




Again. Israel did all those things. Still did not deter all of them. What next?


----------



## ILOVEISRAEL

P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> 
> _"Billo_Really,_
> 
> I'm not sure you have this right.
> 
> _
> 
> 
> Billo_Really said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hamas would be more credible if it acknowledged Israel’s right to exist.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Israel is actively trying to snuff out Hamas, yet Hamas must first recognize Israel's right to exist?  I'm bothered by this for two reasons: 1)  Israel exists.  It's already there.  Why acknowledge its there, when everyone can see it there?  And 2)  States don't have rights, people do.
> 
> The first step is for Israel to end the occupation.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Answer to #1:  _
> _*ARTICLE 6*
> 
> The recognition of a state merely signifies that the state which recognizes it accepts the personality of the other with all the rights and duties determined by international law. Recognition is unconditional and irrevocable.
> 
> *ARTICLE 7*
> The recognition of a state may be *express or tacit.* The latter results from any act which implies the intention of recognizing the new state._​_
> 
> Answer to #2:  Convention on* Rights and Duties of States* signed at Montevideo December 26, 1933;
> _
> Most Respectfully.
> R
> 
> 
> 
> You are missing a couple articles.
> 
> *ARTICLE 4*
> 
> States are juridically equal, enjoy the same rights, and have equal capacity in their exercise. The rights of each one do not depend upon the power which it possesses to assure its exercise, but upon the simple fact of its existence as a person under international law.
> 
> *ARTICLE 8*
> No state has the right to intervene in the internal or external affairs of another.​
> Palestine is the poster child of illegal external  interference from world powers. This does not negate their rights as a state.
Click to expand...


Yawn.,,,, Again, Israel does not have the Right to exist.


----------



## P F Tinmore

ILOVEISRAEL said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> 
> _"Billo_Really,_
> 
> I'm not sure you have this right.
> 
> _
> 
> 
> Billo_Really said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hamas would be more credible if it acknowledged Israel’s right to exist.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Israel is actively trying to snuff out Hamas, yet Hamas must first recognize Israel's right to exist?  I'm bothered by this for two reasons: 1)  Israel exists.  It's already there.  Why acknowledge its there, when everyone can see it there?  And 2)  States don't have rights, people do.
> 
> The first step is for Israel to end the occupation.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Answer to #1:  _
> _*ARTICLE 6*
> 
> The recognition of a state merely signifies that the state which recognizes it accepts the personality of the other with all the rights and duties determined by international law. Recognition is unconditional and irrevocable.
> 
> *ARTICLE 7*
> The recognition of a state may be *express or tacit.* The latter results from any act which implies the intention of recognizing the new state._​_
> 
> Answer to #2:  Convention on* Rights and Duties of States* signed at Montevideo December 26, 1933;
> _
> Most Respectfully.
> R
> 
> 
> 
> You are missing a couple articles.
> 
> *ARTICLE 4*
> 
> States are juridically equal, enjoy the same rights, and have equal capacity in their exercise. The rights of each one do not depend upon the power which it possesses to assure its exercise, but upon the simple fact of its existence as a person under international law.
> 
> *ARTICLE 8*
> No state has the right to intervene in the internal or external affairs of another.​
> Palestine is the poster child of illegal external  interference from world powers. This does not negate their rights as a state.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yawn.,,,, Again, Israel does not have the Right to exist.
Click to expand...

Israeli talking point. Nobody has ever proven that to be true.


----------



## Hollie

P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> 
> _"Billo_Really,_
> 
> I'm not sure you have this right.
> 
> _
> 
> 
> Billo_Really said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hamas would be more credible if it acknowledged Israel’s right to exist.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Israel is actively trying to snuff out Hamas, yet Hamas must first recognize Israel's right to exist?  I'm bothered by this for two reasons: 1)  Israel exists.  It's already there.  Why acknowledge its there, when everyone can see it there?  And 2)  States don't have rights, people do.
> 
> The first step is for Israel to end the occupation.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Answer to #1:  _
> _*ARTICLE 6*
> 
> The recognition of a state merely signifies that the state which recognizes it accepts the personality of the other with all the rights and duties determined by international law. Recognition is unconditional and irrevocable.
> 
> *ARTICLE 7*
> The recognition of a state may be *express or tacit.* The latter results from any act which implies the intention of recognizing the new state._​_
> 
> Answer to #2:  Convention on* Rights and Duties of States* signed at Montevideo December 26, 1933;
> _
> Most Respectfully.
> R
> 
> 
> 
> You are missing a couple articles.
> 
> *ARTICLE 4*
> 
> States are juridically equal, enjoy the same rights, and have equal capacity in their exercise. The rights of each one do not depend upon the power which it possesses to assure its exercise, but upon the simple fact of its existence as a person under international law.
> 
> *ARTICLE 8*
> No state has the right to intervene in the internal or external affairs of another.​
> Palestine is the poster child of illegal external  interference from world powers. This does not negate their rights as a state.
Click to expand...


Pal’istan is not a state.


----------



## Hollie

P F Tinmore said:


> ILOVEISRAEL said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> 
> _"Billo_Really,_
> 
> I'm not sure you have this right.
> 
> _
> 
> 
> Billo_Really said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hamas would be more credible if it acknowledged Israel’s right to exist.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Israel is actively trying to snuff out Hamas, yet Hamas must first recognize Israel's right to exist?  I'm bothered by this for two reasons: 1)  Israel exists.  It's already there.  Why acknowledge its there, when everyone can see it there?  And 2)  States don't have rights, people do.
> 
> The first step is for Israel to end the occupation.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Answer to #1:  _
> _*ARTICLE 6*
> 
> The recognition of a state merely signifies that the state which recognizes it accepts the personality of the other with all the rights and duties determined by international law. Recognition is unconditional and irrevocable.
> 
> *ARTICLE 7*
> The recognition of a state may be *express or tacit.* The latter results from any act which implies the intention of recognizing the new state._​_
> 
> Answer to #2:  Convention on* Rights and Duties of States* signed at Montevideo December 26, 1933;
> _
> Most Respectfully.
> R
> 
> 
> 
> You are missing a couple articles.
> 
> *ARTICLE 4*
> 
> States are juridically equal, enjoy the same rights, and have equal capacity in their exercise. The rights of each one do not depend upon the power which it possesses to assure its exercise, but upon the simple fact of its existence as a person under international law.
> 
> *ARTICLE 8*
> No state has the right to intervene in the internal or external affairs of another.​
> Palestine is the poster child of illegal external  interference from world powers. This does not negate their rights as a state.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yawn.,,,, Again, Israel does not have the Right to exist.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Israeli talking point. Nobody has ever proven that to be true.
Click to expand...


Islamist talking point. It’s been proven true. Prove it hasn’t. 

Roll on that for a bit.


----------



## RoccoR

RE:  Israeli forces shoot unarmed protesters from across Gaza security fence, killing at least 15
※→  Humanity, et al,

Certainly, the world has a number of view on this matter.

Israel's border, like any other border, can be defended --- that is outlined in the DOP.  America has a fenced border and a Border Patrol and a Coast Guard to intercept and prevent border crosser and illegal immigration.  I doubt that any reasonable which performs that same problem is going to REVOKE the Right of a nation. 



Humanity said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> 
> HAMAS want the Image of Israel to be a monstrous view of an oppressor
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well, to be fair....
> 
> Hamas doesn't have to try too hard does it!
> 
> Israel is quite capable of doing that all by themselves!
> 
> As was stated some posts ago by Team Israel... It's not clever videoing the murder of an unarmed Palestinian by the IDF, it's just MORE evidence that Israel is a monstrous oppressor! Talk about shooting yourself in the foot and WITHOUT the help of Hamas!
Click to expand...

*(COMMENT)*

Sovereignty is the issue.  Governments are not going to say that an outside swarm of people have the legal right to swamp a border.

Being "unarmed" does not mean that lethal force cannot be used.  "In most jurisdictions, the *use* of deadly *force* is justified only under conditions of extreme necessity as a last resort, when all lesser means have failed or cannot reasonably be employed. Firearms, bladed weapons, explosives, and vehicles are among those weapons the *use* of which is considered deadly *force*."  {LINK}

Remember, HAMAS is claiming some Right to Return, but ask yourself how many of the protesters have actually lived in Israel and have Israeli citizenship under today's laws.  

And you should further wonder how many are actually a "Refugee" --- and I mean a "REFUGEE" and not just someone allowed to register for UNRWA Service:

*Persons who meet UNRWA’s Palestine Refugee criteria:*

These are persons whose normal place of residence was Palestine during the period 1 June 1946 to 15 May 1948, and who lost both home and means of livelihood as a result ofthe 1948 conflict. Palestine Refugees, and descendants of Palestine refugee males, including legally adopted
children, are eligible to register for UNRWA services. The Agency accepts new applications from
persons who wish to be registered as Palestine Refugees. Once they are registered with UNRWA, persons in this category are referred to as Registered Refugees or as Registered Palestine Refugees.​
How old would a real refugee be?

Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## Shusha

Humanity said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> You mean like we skipped over the condemnation of Gazan violence?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Funny that...
> 
> I have never condoned violence by Hamas... You have seen, over the time I have been here, my condemnation of violence by Hamas
> 
> Unlike your belief that it's ok for the IDF to shell or shoot unarmed Palestinians...
> 
> That, to me Shusha, is a significant difference. Your 'moderate' stance seems to have changed! Towing the Team Israel line now eh! Good for you!!!
Click to expand...


You have not once condemned violence in this thread. It would have been easy enough to do. 

I have never said that shooting unarmed civilians is either morally or legally permissible. In fact, I clearly stated it is not more than once. I'll do it again. Shooting unarmed civilians who pose no threat or potential thtreat is abhorrent.

Here's the trouble:  if you carry a weapon, you are not a civilian, you are a combatant. If you attempt to breach the fence, you are a combatant. If you do not obey multiple tiered layers of instruction and non-lethal attempts at dispersal, you are a combatant.

And if you as a government say to your people, break the fence, march on Jerusalem and tear the hearts out of Jews on the way, you are a terrorist organization. If you belong to the military wing of a terrorist organization you are a combatant.


----------



## Hollie

P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> 
> _"Billo_Really,_
> 
> I'm not sure you have this right.
> 
> _
> 
> 
> Billo_Really said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hamas would be more credible if it acknowledged Israel’s right to exist.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Israel is actively trying to snuff out Hamas, yet Hamas must first recognize Israel's right to exist?  I'm bothered by this for two reasons: 1)  Israel exists.  It's already there.  Why acknowledge its there, when everyone can see it there?  And 2)  States don't have rights, people do.
> 
> The first step is for Israel to end the occupation.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Answer to #1:  _
> _*ARTICLE 6*
> 
> The recognition of a state merely signifies that the state which recognizes it accepts the personality of the other with all the rights and duties determined by international law. Recognition is unconditional and irrevocable.
> 
> *ARTICLE 7*
> The recognition of a state may be *express or tacit.* The latter results from any act which implies the intention of recognizing the new state._​_
> 
> Answer to #2:  Convention on* Rights and Duties of States* signed at Montevideo December 26, 1933;
> _
> Most Respectfully.
> R
> 
> 
> 
> You are missing a couple articles.
> 
> *ARTICLE 4*
> 
> States are juridically equal, enjoy the same rights, and have equal capacity in their exercise. The rights of each one do not depend upon the power which it possesses to assure its exercise, but upon the simple fact of its existence as a person under international law.
> 
> *ARTICLE 8*
> No state has the right to intervene in the internal or external affairs of another.​
> Palestine is the poster child of illegal external  interference from world powers. This does not negate their rights as a state.
Click to expand...


The competing Islamic terrorist franchises of _Islamic Terrorism Intl. Inc._ occupying the geographic you call Pal’istan are just others in a long line of poster childs for dysfunctional, Arab-Moslem societies.


----------



## Shusha

P F Tinmore said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think that is a good question.  It seems smoke bombs and teargas would have been a better response than live ammo.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> They used those things. It did not deter everyone. What then?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> increase them.  Add water cannons if avsilable.  Rubber bullets.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Why should a protest be "put down?" Shouldn't the Palestinians have free speech?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Free speech does not extend to property destruction or crashing another country's border.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> How peaceful would those protests be if they were not shot at as a first response. Israel initiated the violence.
Click to expand...



Okay. This is just ridiculous. Israel has used a number of non-lethal tactics to keep Gazans away from the fence. Lethal methods are used only when other methods fail to achieve that goal.


----------



## Billo_Really

Coyote said:


> Hamas would be more credible if it acknowledged Israel’s right to exist.


Winning a fair and democratic election isn't enough?


----------



## Shusha

Humanity said:


> [
> 
> Wow really? First time I have heard of THAT!
> 
> When was that exactly?
> 
> Please, don't expect us to take your word for it... Some links would be very useful (preferably NOT from the IDF)



Do your own research. It's easy enough to find the photos.


----------



## P F Tinmore

Hollie said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> 
> _"Billo_Really,_
> 
> I'm not sure you have this right.
> 
> _
> 
> 
> Billo_Really said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hamas would be more credible if it acknowledged Israel’s right to exist.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Israel is actively trying to snuff out Hamas, yet Hamas must first recognize Israel's right to exist?  I'm bothered by this for two reasons: 1)  Israel exists.  It's already there.  Why acknowledge its there, when everyone can see it there?  And 2)  States don't have rights, people do.
> 
> The first step is for Israel to end the occupation.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Answer to #1:  _
> _*ARTICLE 6*
> 
> The recognition of a state merely signifies that the state which recognizes it accepts the personality of the other with all the rights and duties determined by international law. Recognition is unconditional and irrevocable.
> 
> *ARTICLE 7*
> The recognition of a state may be *express or tacit.* The latter results from any act which implies the intention of recognizing the new state._​_
> 
> Answer to #2:  Convention on* Rights and Duties of States* signed at Montevideo December 26, 1933;
> _
> Most Respectfully.
> R
> 
> 
> 
> You are missing a couple articles.
> 
> *ARTICLE 4*
> 
> States are juridically equal, enjoy the same rights, and have equal capacity in their exercise. The rights of each one do not depend upon the power which it possesses to assure its exercise, but upon the simple fact of its existence as a person under international law.
> 
> *ARTICLE 8*
> No state has the right to intervene in the internal or external affairs of another.​
> Palestine is the poster child of illegal external  interference from world powers. This does not negate their rights as a state.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Pal’istan is not a state.
Click to expand...


----------



## Billo_Really

RoccoR said:


> _"Billo_Really,_
> 
> I'm not sure you have this right.
> 
> _
> 
> 
> Billo_Really said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hamas would be more credible if it acknowledged Israel’s right to exist.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Israel is actively trying to snuff out Hamas, yet Hamas must first recognize Israel's right to exist?  I'm bothered by this for two reasons: 1)  Israel exists.  It's already there.  Why acknowledge its there, when everyone can see it there?  And 2)  States don't have rights, people do.
> 
> The first step is for Israel to end the occupation.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Answer to #1:  _
> _*ARTICLE 6*
> 
> The recognition of a state merely signifies that the state which recognizes it accepts the personality of the other with all the rights and duties determined by international law. Recognition is unconditional and irrevocable.
> 
> *ARTICLE 7*
> The recognition of a state may be *express or tacit.* The latter results from any act which implies the intention of recognizing the new state._​_
> 
> Answer to #2:  Convention on* Rights and Duties of States* signed at Montevideo December 26, 1933;
> _
> Most Respectfully.
> R


It's stupid to ask someone to recognize you exist, after you already do.


----------



## Shusha

Billo_Really said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> You are either appallingly ignorant or exceedingly vile.
> 
> The Warsaw Ghetto saw 70% of the people exterminated. Another 25% were starved to death.
> 
> They were compelled to hand over thousands of people at a time including all the children under ten, the sick and elderly.
> 
> The comparison is sickening.
> 
> 
> 
> The comparison is also valid.
> 
> _"How many times can a man turn his head,
> pretending he just doesn't see?"
> - Bob Dylan, Blowin' in the Wind_​
Click to expand...


Really?  So you are telling me that 95% of the Gazan population is DEAD?  Do you have a link for that?


----------



## Billo_Really

Hollie said:


> The competing Islamic terrorist franchises of _Islamic Terrorism Intl. Inc._ occupying the geographic you call Pal’istan are just others in a long line of poster childs for dysfunctional, Arab-Moslem societies.


You don't occupy your own land.


----------



## Billo_Really

Shusha said:


> Really?  So you are telling me that 95% of the Gazan population is DEAD?  Do you have a link for that?


According to a UN report, by 2020, 100% will be dead, or dying.


----------



## Shusha

Billo_Really said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> Really?  So you are telling me that 95% of the Gazan population is DEAD?  Do you have a link for that?
> 
> 
> 
> According to a UN report, by 2020, 100% will be dead, or dying.
Click to expand...


Not what the report states.


----------



## Indeependent

P F Tinmore said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> 
> _"Billo_Really,_
> 
> I'm not sure you have this right.
> 
> _
> 
> 
> Billo_Really said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hamas would be more credible if it acknowledged Israel’s right to exist.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Israel is actively trying to snuff out Hamas, yet Hamas must first recognize Israel's right to exist?  I'm bothered by this for two reasons: 1)  Israel exists.  It's already there.  Why acknowledge its there, when everyone can see it there?  And 2)  States don't have rights, people do.
> 
> The first step is for Israel to end the occupation.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Answer to #1:  _
> _*ARTICLE 6*
> 
> The recognition of a state merely signifies that the state which recognizes it accepts the personality of the other with all the rights and duties determined by international law. Recognition is unconditional and irrevocable.
> 
> *ARTICLE 7*
> The recognition of a state may be *express or tacit.* The latter results from any act which implies the intention of recognizing the new state._​_
> 
> Answer to #2:  Convention on* Rights and Duties of States* signed at Montevideo December 26, 1933;
> _
> Most Respectfully.
> R
> 
> 
> 
> You are missing a couple articles.
> 
> *ARTICLE 4*
> 
> States are juridically equal, enjoy the same rights, and have equal capacity in their exercise. The rights of each one do not depend upon the power which it possesses to assure its exercise, but upon the simple fact of its existence as a person under international law.
> 
> *ARTICLE 8*
> No state has the right to intervene in the internal or external affairs of another.​
> Palestine is the poster child of illegal external  interference from world powers. This does not negate their rights as a state.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Pal’istan is not a state.
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...

By your demented standards, any Link provided would be dismissed as Israeli Propaganda.

And I presume you still have never been to the region.


----------



## Hollie

Billo_Really said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hamas would be more credible if it acknowledged Israel’s right to exist.
> 
> 
> 
> Winning a fair and democratic election isn't enough?
Click to expand...


Winning once is enough. Arabs-Moslems voted in their own dictatorial oppressors who have since refused any “democratic” elections. Do you know that democracy is _shirk _in the view of Islamist sharia? No. You didn’t. 

Words thrown carelessly around tend to lose any connection to their intrinsic meaning. There is nothing “democratic” about Islamism or retrograde Islamist sharia. Theocratic totalitarianism is the polar opposite of western liberal democracy. Notice they’re even spelled differently.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot

Billo_Really said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> 
> _"Billo_Really,_
> 
> I'm not sure you have this right.
> 
> _
> 
> 
> Billo_Really said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hamas would be more credible if it acknowledged Israel’s right to exist.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Israel is actively trying to snuff out Hamas, yet Hamas must first recognize Israel's right to exist?  I'm bothered by this for two reasons: 1)  Israel exists.  It's already there.  Why acknowledge its there, when everyone can see it there?  And 2)  States don't have rights, people do.
> 
> The first step is for Israel to end the occupation.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Answer to #1:  _
> _*ARTICLE 6*
> 
> The recognition of a state merely signifies that the state which recognizes it accepts the personality of the other with all the rights and duties determined by international law. Recognition is unconditional and irrevocable.
> 
> *ARTICLE 7*
> The recognition of a state may be *express or tacit.* The latter results from any act which implies the intention of recognizing the new state._​_
> 
> Answer to #2:  Convention on* Rights and Duties of States* signed at Montevideo December 26, 1933;
> _
> Most Respectfully.
> R
> 
> 
> 
> It's stupid to ask someone to recognize you exist, after you already do.
Click to expand...

*
It's stupid to ask someone to recognize you exist, after you already do.
*
It's dumber to deny you have the right to exist, after you already do.


----------



## RoccoR

RE:  Israeli forces shoot unarmed protesters from across Gaza security fence, killing at least 15
※→  P F Tinmore,  et al,

I could have copied and commented on every article in the convention, but the two were sufficient to make the point. 



P F Tinmore said:


> You are missing a couple articles.
> 
> *ARTICLE 4*
> 
> States are juridically equal, enjoy the same rights, and have equal capacity in their exercise. The rights of each one do not depend upon the power which it possesses to assure its exercise, but upon the simple fact of its existence as a person under international law.
> 
> *ARTICLE 8*
> No state has the right to intervene in the internal or external affairs of another.​
> Palestine is the poster child of illegal external  interference from world powers. This does not negate their rights as a state.


*(COMMENT)*

I do not believe that the Arab Palestinians have any basis to claim any territory now.  What chances they might have had, they filtered-away over time.  With the possible exception of the Gaza Strip (inside the wire) do the Arab Palestinians show any signs of a turn Government.  It is more like the gangster style syndicate stranglehold → or → barrio gang territory.  The Palestinian Flag is more of a clique moniker than the sign of a nation.

The Israelis have never extended governmental control over a Arab Palestinian sovereignty.  It did engage both the Jordanians and the Egyptians.  But, those disputes were resolved by standing treaties. 

Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## Hollie

Billo_Really said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> The competing Islamic terrorist franchises of _Islamic Terrorism Intl. Inc._ occupying the geographic you call Pal’istan are just others in a long line of poster childs for dysfunctional, Arab-Moslem societies.
> 
> 
> 
> You don't occupy your own land.
Click to expand...


What land is owned by the competing Islamic terrorist franchises of _Islamic Terrorism Intl. Inc._ occupying the geographic you call Pal’istan?


----------



## RoccoR

P F Tinmore

I did not see the question.  



P F Tinmore said:


> ILOVEISRAEL said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yawn.,,,, Again, Israel does not have the Right to exist.
> 
> 
> 
> Israeli talking point. Nobody has ever proven that to be true.
Click to expand...

*(Q)*

WHAT "has ever proven that to be true"?

v/r
R


----------



## Shusha

Coyote said:


> Actually after reading this....
> Violence Erupts Anew at Gaza-Israel Border in Third Week of Protests
> 
> I am not sure what Israel should do because the protesters are trying to tear down the fence.  Israel does have a right to defend it's border.
> 
> This illustrates though how desperate things have become in Gaza and peopke will do desperate things when they see no options.



We agree. 

But do we also agree that picking a war with Israel will not improve the situation and will indeed make it worse. 

The solution is renunciation of violence, recognition and peace. Then infrastructure development, economic trade, tourism, etc etc


----------



## Tijn Von Ingersleben

Likkmee said:


> Tijn Von Ingersleben said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> skye said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tijn Von Ingersleben said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> skye said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tijn Von Ingersleben said:
> 
> 
> 
> One of the two sides should hurry up and kill the other...I am tired of my tax dollars going toward this shit show.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> with money or without money...
> 
> the show will continue until the palestinians stop their tantrum.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Zero fucks given...not my problem...stop taking my tax dollars to fund ANY of it.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> zero fucks given....by you???? oh nooooooooooooo LOL!
> 
> scary!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> That's exactly how I see non jews who care about this shit show. It makes no sense to me. If you think it makes a bit of sense answer this question. If Israel and the Palestinians were to vaporize into non existence tomorrow would it drastically affect your life as non-Jew?
> If you ARE a Jew...move your ass there to affect change. No one else really cares.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Gimme IsNtReals nuke codes and you'll see before the sun goes down how things could be.No Bolsheviks, no Mus-slime and the Jews will remain quiet and unseen...just like the old days.
Click to expand...


----------



## RetiredGySgt

Humanity said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> You mean like we skipped over the condemnation of Gazan violence?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Funny that...
> 
> I have never condoned violence by Hamas... You have seen, over the time I have been here, my condemnation of violence by Hamas
> 
> Unlike your belief that it's ok for the IDF to shell or shoot unarmed Palestinians...
> 
> That, to me Shusha, is a significant difference. Your 'moderate' stance seems to have changed! Towing the Team Israel line now eh! Good for you!!!
Click to expand...

And yet all you have done in THIS thread is ignore pal violence and make excuses for it. Go figure.


----------



## P F Tinmore

RoccoR said:


> I do not believe that the Arab Palestinians have any basis to claim any territory now.


Aside from illegal foreign interference, what makes you think that?


----------



## RetiredGySgt

P F Tinmore said:


> ILOVEISRAEL said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> 
> _"Billo_Really,_
> 
> I'm not sure you have this right.
> 
> _
> 
> 
> Billo_Really said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hamas would be more credible if it acknowledged Israel’s right to exist.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Israel is actively trying to snuff out Hamas, yet Hamas must first recognize Israel's right to exist?  I'm bothered by this for two reasons: 1)  Israel exists.  It's already there.  Why acknowledge its there, when everyone can see it there?  And 2)  States don't have rights, people do.
> 
> The first step is for Israel to end the occupation.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Answer to #1:  _
> _*ARTICLE 6*
> 
> The recognition of a state merely signifies that the state which recognizes it accepts the personality of the other with all the rights and duties determined by international law. Recognition is unconditional and irrevocable.
> 
> *ARTICLE 7*
> The recognition of a state may be *express or tacit.* The latter results from any act which implies the intention of recognizing the new state._​_
> 
> Answer to #2:  Convention on* Rights and Duties of States* signed at Montevideo December 26, 1933;
> _
> Most Respectfully.
> R
> 
> 
> 
> You are missing a couple articles.
> 
> *ARTICLE 4*
> 
> States are juridically equal, enjoy the same rights, and have equal capacity in their exercise. The rights of each one do not depend upon the power which it possesses to assure its exercise, but upon the simple fact of its existence as a person under international law.
> 
> *ARTICLE 8*
> No state has the right to intervene in the internal or external affairs of another.​
> Palestine is the poster child of illegal external  interference from world powers. This does not negate their rights as a state.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yawn.,,,, Again, Israel does not have the Right to exist.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Israeli talking point. Nobody has ever proven that to be true.
Click to expand...

Hamas claims Israel must be totally destroyed wiped from existence and they promote support and actively engage in violence to accomplish that goal. And you defend them.


----------



## RoccoR

RE:  Israeli forces shoot unarmed protesters from across Gaza security fence, killing at least 15
※→  P F Tinmore,  et al,

With the possible exception of the Gaza Strip, which the Israel unilateral disengagement essentially abandon Gaza in 2005, I cannot seem to identify any territory in the Middle East Region over which the Arab Palestinians maintained territorial sovereignty _(the full right and power of a governing body to govern itself without any interference from outside sources or bodies)_.



P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> 
> I do not believe that the Arab Palestinians have any basis to claim any territory now.
> 
> 
> 
> Aside from illegal foreign interference, what makes you think that?
Click to expand...

*(COMMENT)*

Before you can cry that the Israelis interfered with a governing body to govern itself.  _(Remember: you have to have a government before someone can interfere with it.  Just like you have sovereign territory before someone can interfere with it.  Israel cannot interfere with nothing; we call that shadow boxing.)_  The territories, we call today, the occupied Palestinian territories (oPt) were effectively controlled by the Israelis for twenty years before the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO) made a bid for saying:



			
				Palestinian [U]Declaration of Independence → 15 November 1988 said:
			
		

> [/U]
> Pursuant to the resolutions of the Arab Summit Conferences and on the basis of the international legitimacy embodied in the resolutions of the United Nations since 1947, and
> 
> Through the exercise by the Palestinian Arab people of its right to self-determination, political independence and sovereignty over its territory:
> 
> The Palestine National Council hereby declares, in the Name of God and on behalf of the Palestinian Arab people, the establishment of the State of Palestine in the land of Palestine with its capital at Jerusalem.



The Arab Palestinians made a promise to be a peace-loving State committed to the principles of peaceful coexistence.  Twenty years later, they are storming the gates of Israel.  They are intentionally trying to provoke an incident that will escalate out of control.  Israel has, "even before recognition the state has the right to defend its integrity and independence.  (Article 3 - Montevideo Convention)
Israel has right to respond to any "threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of any state, or in any other manner inconsistent with the Purposes of the United Nations." [Article 2(4), UN Charter]

*(EPILOG)*

I saw this while looking for something else → profligate behavior: debauchery; unrestrained revelry; noise, uproar, or disturbance made by revelers — *riot* in a sentence.



​
Most Respectfully,
R
But the Arab Palestinian
Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## P F Tinmore

RoccoR said:


> "even before recognition the state has the right to defend its integrity and independence. (Article 3 - Montevideo Convention)


And Palestine had been a state since 1924, years before Israel attacked and encroached on their land.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot

P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> 
> "even before recognition the state has the right to defend its integrity and independence. (Article 3 - Montevideo Convention)
> 
> 
> 
> And Palestine had been a state since 1924, years before Israel attacked and encroached on their land.
Click to expand...


*And Palestine had been a state since 1924
*
Who were their elected officials?
How many were Muzzies?
Who printed their currency?
Was it fixed or floating rate?
Backed by gold?


----------



## Coyote

*Folks - let's NOT derail into when/if/etc Palestine was/is/is not a state.  Stick to the topic which is this protest and surrounding events.*


----------



## Coyote

Shusha said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> Actually after reading this....
> Violence Erupts Anew at Gaza-Israel Border in Third Week of Protests
> 
> I am not sure what Israel should do because the protesters are trying to tear down the fence.  Israel does have a right to defend it's border.
> 
> This illustrates though how desperate things have become in Gaza and peopke will do desperate things when they see no options.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We agree.
> 
> But do we also agree that picking a war with Israel will not improve the situation and will indeed make it worse.
> 
> The solution is renunciation of violence, recognition and peace. Then infrastructure development, economic trade, tourism, etc etc
Click to expand...


But how does Gaza get THERE from here?  At the moment - the people are under a form of collective punishment for an election - that is essentially the way I see how it started, and that has only made the situation worse for them, and perhaps ultimately Israel - not better.

 Here is an interesting article from February:

IDF chief said to warn Gaza war likely if humanitarian crisis persists
_IDF Chief of Staff Gadi Eisenkot warned ministers during a cabinet meeting on Sunday that Israel could soon face another war with Gaza-based terror group Hamas, as a result of the *deteriorating humanitarian and economic conditions in the coastal enclave*, according to Israeli television reports. 

In his briefing, Eisenkot pointed to the *lack of electricity, drinkable water, and food *in the Gaza Strip, according to Channel 10. 

...In a security assessment handed recently to Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, *the defense establishment reiterated its belief that Hamas is not interested in another conflict with Israel. However, an economic collapse would make such a scenario inevitable.*

Hamas, which seized control of the Gaza Strip from the Palestinian Authority in 2007, has been under increasing pressure as the coastal enclave teeters on the verge of an economic and infrastructure collapse that UN Middle East peace envoy Nickolay Mladenov last week said was already “well beyond” a humanitarian crisis._​


----------



## P F Tinmore

Coyote said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> Actually after reading this....
> Violence Erupts Anew at Gaza-Israel Border in Third Week of Protests
> 
> I am not sure what Israel should do because the protesters are trying to tear down the fence.  Israel does have a right to defend it's border.
> 
> This illustrates though how desperate things have become in Gaza and peopke will do desperate things when they see no options.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We agree.
> 
> But do we also agree that picking a war with Israel will not improve the situation and will indeed make it worse.
> 
> The solution is renunciation of violence, recognition and peace. Then infrastructure development, economic trade, tourism, etc etc
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> But how does Gaza get THERE from here?  At the moment - the people are under a form of collective punishment for an election - that is essentially the way I see how it started, and that has only made the situation worse for them, and perhaps ultimately Israel - not better.
> 
> Here is an interesting article from February:
> 
> IDF chief said to warn Gaza war likely if humanitarian crisis persists
> _IDF Chief of Staff Gadi Eisenkot warned ministers during a cabinet meeting on Sunday that Israel could soon face another war with Gaza-based terror group Hamas, as a result of the *deteriorating humanitarian and economic conditions in the coastal enclave*, according to Israeli television reports.
> 
> In his briefing, Eisenkot pointed to the *lack of electricity, drinkable water, and food *in the Gaza Strip, according to Channel 10.
> 
> ...In a security assessment handed recently to Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, *the defense establishment reiterated its belief that Hamas is not interested in another conflict with Israel. However, an economic collapse would make such a scenario inevitable.*
> 
> Hamas, which seized control of the Gaza Strip from the Palestinian Authority in 2007, has been under increasing pressure as the coastal enclave teeters on the verge of an economic and infrastructure collapse that UN Middle East peace envoy Nickolay Mladenov last week said was already “well beyond” a humanitarian crisis._​
Click to expand...

But the response is not rockets, it is an unarmed protest. Israel responds with violence because that is the only tool in their box.


----------



## Coyote

P F Tinmore said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think that is a good question.  It seems smoke bombs and teargas would have been a better response than live ammo.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> They used those things. It did not deter everyone. What then?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> increase them.  Add water cannons if avsilable.  Rubber bullets.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Why should a protest be "put down?" Shouldn't the Palestinians have free speech?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Free speech does not extend to property destruction or crashing another country's border.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> How peaceful would those protests be if they were not shot at as a first response. Israel initiated the violence.
Click to expand...


Here's a question...when protestors start attempting to tear down the fence...what should Israel's response be?


----------



## Coyote

P F Tinmore said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> Actually after reading this....
> Violence Erupts Anew at Gaza-Israel Border in Third Week of Protests
> 
> I am not sure what Israel should do because the protesters are trying to tear down the fence.  Israel does have a right to defend it's border.
> 
> This illustrates though how desperate things have become in Gaza and peopke will do desperate things when they see no options.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We agree.
> 
> But do we also agree that picking a war with Israel will not improve the situation and will indeed make it worse.
> 
> The solution is renunciation of violence, recognition and peace. Then infrastructure development, economic trade, tourism, etc etc
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> But how does Gaza get THERE from here?  At the moment - the people are under a form of collective punishment for an election - that is essentially the way I see how it started, and that has only made the situation worse for them, and perhaps ultimately Israel - not better.
> 
> Here is an interesting article from February:
> 
> IDF chief said to warn Gaza war likely if humanitarian crisis persists
> _IDF Chief of Staff Gadi Eisenkot warned ministers during a cabinet meeting on Sunday that Israel could soon face another war with Gaza-based terror group Hamas, as a result of the *deteriorating humanitarian and economic conditions in the coastal enclave*, according to Israeli television reports.
> 
> In his briefing, Eisenkot pointed to the *lack of electricity, drinkable water, and food *in the Gaza Strip, according to Channel 10.
> 
> ...In a security assessment handed recently to Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, *the defense establishment reiterated its belief that Hamas is not interested in another conflict with Israel. However, an economic collapse would make such a scenario inevitable.*
> 
> Hamas, which seized control of the Gaza Strip from the Palestinian Authority in 2007, has been under increasing pressure as the coastal enclave teeters on the verge of an economic and infrastructure collapse that UN Middle East peace envoy Nickolay Mladenov last week said was already “well beyond” a humanitarian crisis._​
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> But the response is not rockets, it is an unarmed protest. Israel responds with violence because that is the only tool in their box.
Click to expand...


They're attempting to rip down the fence and Israel DID use smoke bombs, tear gas and they still kept trying.

In all honesty I have to ask - what should they do?


----------



## P F Tinmore

Coyote said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> They used those things. It did not deter everyone. What then?
> 
> 
> 
> increase them.  Add water cannons if avsilable.  Rubber bullets.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Why should a protest be "put down?" Shouldn't the Palestinians have free speech?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Free speech does not extend to property destruction or crashing another country's border.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> How peaceful would those protests be if they were not shot at as a first response. Israel initiated the violence.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Here's a question...when protestors start attempting to tear down the fence...what should Israel's response be?
Click to expand...

Israel is allowed to arrest them. Read article 68 that Rocco posts all of the time.


----------



## Coyote

P F Tinmore said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> increase them.  Add water cannons if avsilable.  Rubber bullets.
> 
> 
> 
> Why should a protest be "put down?" Shouldn't the Palestinians have free speech?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Free speech does not extend to property destruction or crashing another country's border.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> How peaceful would those protests be if they were not shot at as a first response. Israel initiated the violence.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Here's a question...when protestors start attempting to tear down the fence...what should Israel's response be?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Israel is allowed to arrest them. Read article 68 that Rocco posts all of the time.
Click to expand...


They are essentially hostile foreign nationals attempting to crash the border.  They are known to have carried out terrorist activities in Israel.  They were storming the fence in large numbers, trying to tear it down in what really can't be called a peaceful manner.

So...I have to say, what are Israel's options when smokebombs and teargas fail?  It's a bad situation all around isn't it?


----------



## Hollie

P F Tinmore said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> Actually after reading this....
> Violence Erupts Anew at Gaza-Israel Border in Third Week of Protests
> 
> I am not sure what Israel should do because the protesters are trying to tear down the fence.  Israel does have a right to defend it's border.
> 
> This illustrates though how desperate things have become in Gaza and peopke will do desperate things when they see no options.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We agree.
> 
> But do we also agree that picking a war with Israel will not improve the situation and will indeed make it worse.
> 
> The solution is renunciation of violence, recognition and peace. Then infrastructure development, economic trade, tourism, etc etc
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> But how does Gaza get THERE from here?  At the moment - the people are under a form of collective punishment for an election - that is essentially the way I see how it started, and that has only made the situation worse for them, and perhaps ultimately Israel - not better.
> 
> Here is an interesting article from February:
> 
> IDF chief said to warn Gaza war likely if humanitarian crisis persists
> _IDF Chief of Staff Gadi Eisenkot warned ministers during a cabinet meeting on Sunday that Israel could soon face another war with Gaza-based terror group Hamas, as a result of the *deteriorating humanitarian and economic conditions in the coastal enclave*, according to Israeli television reports.
> 
> In his briefing, Eisenkot pointed to the *lack of electricity, drinkable water, and food *in the Gaza Strip, according to Channel 10.
> 
> ...In a security assessment handed recently to Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, *the defense establishment reiterated its belief that Hamas is not interested in another conflict with Israel. However, an economic collapse would make such a scenario inevitable.*
> 
> Hamas, which seized control of the Gaza Strip from the Palestinian Authority in 2007, has been under increasing pressure as the coastal enclave teeters on the verge of an economic and infrastructure collapse that UN Middle East peace envoy Nickolay Mladenov last week said was already “well beyond” a humanitarian crisis._​
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> But the response is not rockets, it is an unarmed protest. Israel responds with violence because that is the only tool in their box.
Click to expand...


You mean the Arabs-Moslems staged unarmed protests excepting those protestors who were armed.


----------



## Coyote

Hollie said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> Actually after reading this....
> Violence Erupts Anew at Gaza-Israel Border in Third Week of Protests
> 
> I am not sure what Israel should do because the protesters are trying to tear down the fence.  Israel does have a right to defend it's border.
> 
> This illustrates though how desperate things have become in Gaza and peopke will do desperate things when they see no options.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We agree.
> 
> But do we also agree that picking a war with Israel will not improve the situation and will indeed make it worse.
> 
> The solution is renunciation of violence, recognition and peace. Then infrastructure development, economic trade, tourism, etc etc
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> But how does Gaza get THERE from here?  At the moment - the people are under a form of collective punishment for an election - that is essentially the way I see how it started, and that has only made the situation worse for them, and perhaps ultimately Israel - not better.
> 
> Here is an interesting article from February:
> 
> IDF chief said to warn Gaza war likely if humanitarian crisis persists
> _IDF Chief of Staff Gadi Eisenkot warned ministers during a cabinet meeting on Sunday that Israel could soon face another war with Gaza-based terror group Hamas, as a result of the *deteriorating humanitarian and economic conditions in the coastal enclave*, according to Israeli television reports.
> 
> In his briefing, Eisenkot pointed to the *lack of electricity, drinkable water, and food *in the Gaza Strip, according to Channel 10.
> 
> ...In a security assessment handed recently to Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, *the defense establishment reiterated its belief that Hamas is not interested in another conflict with Israel. However, an economic collapse would make such a scenario inevitable.*
> 
> Hamas, which seized control of the Gaza Strip from the Palestinian Authority in 2007, has been under increasing pressure as the coastal enclave teeters on the verge of an economic and infrastructure collapse that UN Middle East peace envoy Nickolay Mladenov last week said was already “well beyond” a humanitarian crisis._​
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> But the response is not rockets, it is an unarmed protest. Israel responds with violence because that is the only tool in their box.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You mean the Arabs-Moslems staged unarmed protests excepting those protestors who were armed.
Click to expand...



They were?  They didn't seem to have killed or injured anyone.


----------



## P F Tinmore

Coyote said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> Why should a protest be "put down?" Shouldn't the Palestinians have free speech?
> 
> 
> 
> Free speech does not extend to property destruction or crashing another country's border.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> How peaceful would those protests be if they were not shot at as a first response. Israel initiated the violence.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Here's a question...when protestors start attempting to tear down the fence...what should Israel's response be?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Israel is allowed to arrest them. Read article 68 that Rocco posts all of the time.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> They are essentially hostile foreign nationals attempting to crash the border.  They are known to have carried out terrorist activities in Israel.  They were storming the fence in large numbers, trying to tear it down in what really can't be called a peaceful manner.
> 
> So...I have to say, what are Israel's options when smokebombs and teargas fail?  It's a bad situation all around isn't it?
Click to expand...

Every video I have seen where there were people at the border there were only 3 - 4 people.


----------



## Hollie

Coyote said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> Actually after reading this....
> Violence Erupts Anew at Gaza-Israel Border in Third Week of Protests
> 
> I am not sure what Israel should do because the protesters are trying to tear down the fence.  Israel does have a right to defend it's border.
> 
> This illustrates though how desperate things have become in Gaza and peopke will do desperate things when they see no options.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We agree.
> 
> But do we also agree that picking a war with Israel will not improve the situation and will indeed make it worse.
> 
> The solution is renunciation of violence, recognition and peace. Then infrastructure development, economic trade, tourism, etc etc
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> But how does Gaza get THERE from here?  At the moment - the people are under a form of collective punishment for an election - that is essentially the way I see how it started, and that has only made the situation worse for them, and perhaps ultimately Israel - not better.
> 
> Here is an interesting article from February:
> 
> IDF chief said to warn Gaza war likely if humanitarian crisis persists
> _IDF Chief of Staff Gadi Eisenkot warned ministers during a cabinet meeting on Sunday that Israel could soon face another war with Gaza-based terror group Hamas, as a result of the *deteriorating humanitarian and economic conditions in the coastal enclave*, according to Israeli television reports.
> 
> In his briefing, Eisenkot pointed to the *lack of electricity, drinkable water, and food *in the Gaza Strip, according to Channel 10.
> 
> ...In a security assessment handed recently to Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, *the defense establishment reiterated its belief that Hamas is not interested in another conflict with Israel. However, an economic collapse would make such a scenario inevitable.*
> 
> Hamas, which seized control of the Gaza Strip from the Palestinian Authority in 2007, has been under increasing pressure as the coastal enclave teeters on the verge of an economic and infrastructure collapse that UN Middle East peace envoy Nickolay Mladenov last week said was already “well beyond” a humanitarian crisis._​
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> But the response is not rockets, it is an unarmed protest. Israel responds with violence because that is the only tool in their box.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You mean the Arabs-Moslems staged unarmed protests excepting those protestors who were armed.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> They were?  They didn't seem to have killed or injured anyone.
Click to expand...


Are you excluding Molotov cocktails and explosives as weapons?


----------



## RoccoR

RE:  Israeli forces shoot unarmed protesters from across Gaza security fence, killing at least 15
※→  P F Tinmore, Coyote, et al,

Article 68, Fourth Geneva Convention (GCIV) is not really applicable in this case.  The issue is a matter for domestic border security and immigration.  The Border Police _(Gendarmerie)(a major asset within the Israeli National Police)_ "can" make apprehensions as a national law enforcement effort.



P F Tinmore said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> Here's a question...when protestors start attempting to tear down the fence...what should Israel's response be?
> 
> 
> 
> Israel is allowed to arrest them. Read article 68 that Rocco posts all of the time.
Click to expand...

*(COMMENT)*

It is the Israel Defense Force (IDF) job to prevent an attack and penetration by any hostile force.   The purpose is to mount a dedicated effort to defend the Israeli People, to guard the Jewish Homeland and security for the future of the Jewish people and the sovereignty of the state.

If the Arab Palestinians attempt to swamp the barriers in an effort to breach the border, the Israelis will have to make a choice:  Whether or not to consider the aggressors as a massive civilian immigration effort by force, → or → a Rule 97 use of civilians by a hostie nation to gain a political advantage they could not achieve by International Law and Peaceful Means.

Article 68 only applies to an Occupation.  It does not apply to Israeli Sovereign Territory _(on one side of the border)_ → or → Gaza Territory _(on the other side of the border)_ remanded to the Arab Palestinians in the 2005 unilateral withdraw.

Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## P F Tinmore

RoccoR said:


> RE:  Israeli forces shoot unarmed protesters from across Gaza security fence, killing at least 15
> ※→  P F Tinmore, Coyote, et al,
> 
> Article 68, Fourth Geneva Convention (GCIV) is not really applicable in this case.  The issue is a matter for domestic border security and immigration.  The Border Police _(Gendarmerie)(a major asset within the Israeli National Police)_ "can" make apprehensions as a national law enforcement effort.
> 
> 
> 
> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> Here's a question...when protestors start attempting to tear down the fence...what should Israel's response be?
> 
> 
> 
> Israel is allowed to arrest them. Read article 68 that Rocco posts all of the time.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> *(COMMENT)*
> 
> It is the Israel Defense Force (IDF) job to prevent an attack and penetration by any hostile force.   The purpose is to mount a dedicated effort to defend the Israeli People, to guard the Jewish Homeland and security for the future of the Jewish people and the sovereignty of the state.
> 
> If the Arab Palestinians attempt to swamp the barriers in an effort to breach the border, the Israelis will have to make a choice:  Whether or not to consider the aggressors as a massive civilian immigration effort by force, → or → a Rule 97 use of civilians by a hostie nation to gain a political advantage they could not achieve by International Law and Peaceful Means.
> 
> Article 68 only applies to an Occupation.  It does not apply to Israeli Sovereign Territory _(on one side of the border)_ → or → Gaza Territory _(on the other side of the border)_ remanded to the Arab Palestinians in the 2005 unilateral withdraw.
> 
> Most Respectfully,
> R
Click to expand...

Does that give Israel the right to shoot fish in a barrel?


----------



## Billo_Really

Shusha said:


> Not what the report states.


It states the area will be uninhabitable by 2020.  What do you think "uninhabitable" means?


----------



## Billo_Really

Hollie said:


> Winning once is enough. Arabs-Moslems voted in their own dictatorial oppressors who have since refused any “democratic” elections. Do you know that democracy is _shirk _in the view of Islamist sharia? No. You didn’t.
> 
> Words thrown carelessly around tend to lose any connection to their intrinsic meaning. There is nothing “democratic” about Islamism or retrograde Islamist sharia. Theocratic totalitarianism is the polar opposite of western liberal democracy. Notice they’re even spelled differently.


There's nothing democratic with Israel's fascist tyranny the Pals are forced to live under.


----------



## Billo_Really

Toddsterpatriot said:


> *It's stupid to ask someone to recognize you exist, after you already do.
> *
> It's dumber to deny you have the right to exist, after you already do.


This is a stupid issue to be talking about.


----------



## Billo_Really

Hollie said:


> What land is owned by the competing Islamic terrorist franchises of _Islamic Terrorism Intl. Inc._ occupying the geographic you call Pal’istan?


It doesn't matter who owns it.  It only matters that Israel doesn't.


----------



## Billo_Really

RetiredGySgt said:


> Israeli talking point. Nobody has ever proven that to be true.


Hamas claims Israel must be totally destroyed wiped from existence and they promote support and actively engage in violence to accomplish that goal. And you defend them.[/QUOTE]After what Israel has done to them, how could you blame them?

At least they don't have to lie in order to justify their argument.

So tell me, what does Israeli butt taste like?


----------



## Coyote

P F Tinmore said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> Free speech does not extend to property destruction or crashing another country's border.
> 
> 
> 
> How peaceful would those protests be if they were not shot at as a first response. Israel initiated the violence.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Here's a question...when protestors start attempting to tear down the fence...what should Israel's response be?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Israel is allowed to arrest them. Read article 68 that Rocco posts all of the time.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> They are essentially hostile foreign nationals attempting to crash the border.  They are known to have carried out terrorist activities in Israel.  They were storming the fence in large numbers, trying to tear it down in what really can't be called a peaceful manner.
> 
> So...I have to say, what are Israel's options when smokebombs and teargas fail?  It's a bad situation all around isn't it?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Every video I have seen where there were people at the border there were only 3 - 4 people.
Click to expand...


I can't tell...I googled images gaza protest - Google Search:

But it's really impossible to tell.


----------



## Coyote

Hollie said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> We agree.
> 
> But do we also agree that picking a war with Israel will not improve the situation and will indeed make it worse.
> 
> The solution is renunciation of violence, recognition and peace. Then infrastructure development, economic trade, tourism, etc etc
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But how does Gaza get THERE from here?  At the moment - the people are under a form of collective punishment for an election - that is essentially the way I see how it started, and that has only made the situation worse for them, and perhaps ultimately Israel - not better.
> 
> Here is an interesting article from February:
> 
> IDF chief said to warn Gaza war likely if humanitarian crisis persists
> _IDF Chief of Staff Gadi Eisenkot warned ministers during a cabinet meeting on Sunday that Israel could soon face another war with Gaza-based terror group Hamas, as a result of the *deteriorating humanitarian and economic conditions in the coastal enclave*, according to Israeli television reports.
> 
> In his briefing, Eisenkot pointed to the *lack of electricity, drinkable water, and food *in the Gaza Strip, according to Channel 10.
> 
> ...In a security assessment handed recently to Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, *the defense establishment reiterated its belief that Hamas is not interested in another conflict with Israel. However, an economic collapse would make such a scenario inevitable.*
> 
> Hamas, which seized control of the Gaza Strip from the Palestinian Authority in 2007, has been under increasing pressure as the coastal enclave teeters on the verge of an economic and infrastructure collapse that UN Middle East peace envoy Nickolay Mladenov last week said was already “well beyond” a humanitarian crisis._​
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> But the response is not rockets, it is an unarmed protest. Israel responds with violence because that is the only tool in their box.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You mean the Arabs-Moslems staged unarmed protests excepting those protestors who were armed.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> They were?  They didn't seem to have killed or injured anyone.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Are you excluding Molotov cocktails and explosives as weapons?
Click to expand...




Armed.


----------



## RoccoR

RE:  Israeli forces shoot unarmed protesters from across Gaza security fence, killing at least 15
※→  P F Tinmore,  et al,

I already said it once.  The Arab Palestinian instigators, with the purpose of creating a media event, cannot use civilians to hide behind as a means to avoid IDF targeting.  That is Rules, 23, 24, and 97.  It is not a case of "shooting fish in a barrel."  In fact, the HAMAS instigator is actually, under most case law, guilty of murder in any death on the border related to the commission of grievous bodily harm.  

*Justifiable use of force*



•  Defense of a Person
•  Defense of Occupied Structure
•  Use of Force in Defense of State Property serious damage or destruction
•  Use of Force in defense of an attack
•  Use of Force to Prevent Escape from Custody​


P F Tinmore said:


> Does that give Israel the right to shoot fish in a barrel?


*(COMMENT)*

The Government of the Gaza Strip, which seems to be HAMAS, is using civilians in a way that is criminal in the eyes of domestic law.  Human Wave attacks _(swamping the border for political gain)_ is not an acceptable practice.  Once the illegals immigrants step on sovereign Israeli Territory, new rules of domestic law kick-in.  The very same way as when illegal aliens enter the US.

HAMAS Leaders are guilty of murder _(in one form or another)_ in any border death, resulting from the instigated efforts they inspired.  All most universally accepted justification for the use of forces by LEO's are:

IF you don't want to see demonstrators and protestors hurt, injured or killed, THEN don't advocate challenging the border.  Mob violence is one of those chaotic events that can run out of control.

Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## Toddsterpatriot

Billo_Really said:


> Toddsterpatriot said:
> 
> 
> 
> *It's stupid to ask someone to recognize you exist, after you already do.
> *
> It's dumber to deny you have the right to exist, after you already do.
> 
> 
> 
> This is a stupid issue to be talking about.
Click to expand...


Count on the Palestinians to fuck themselves up over such a stupid issue.


----------



## Billo_Really

Toddsterpatriot said:


> do.
> 
> Count on the Palestinians to fuck themselves up over such a stupid issue.


The Pals are not fucking themselves.  It's the fascists next door who keep demanding to be recognized.


----------



## Kondor3

Gazans need to relocate someplace else... wherever Mad Dog Palestinians are welcome.


----------



## teddyearp

Penelope said:


> The Palestinians are Semites as well. What does that make you?


OK, if we go in that vein, look at it this way.  If you are against the Israelite's having their restored Nation of Israel (being Semites as well) what does that make you?


----------



## Shusha

Coyote said:


> But how does Gaza get THERE from here?  At the moment - the people are under a form of collective punishment for an election



Well no. Gaza is under a blockade (not collective punishment - a blockade) because Gaza imports weapons which are intended and in point of fact used as a means of violence against Israel. The intent of the blockade is to prevent belligerent violent actions against Israel.

The originating cause of that blockade was not an election. It was (at least) Gaza's government's refusal to recognize Israel, make peace with Israel and honour the agreements made by the previous government.

The CONTINUING cause of the blockade is the consistent attacks made by Gaza, with the apparently full support of the government of Gaza, against Israel.

The solution could not be more obvious. Gaza gets THERE from here by declaring an end to any dispute about territory between her and Israel. (Just as Jordan and Egypt did in formal end-of-conflict agreements.  There is a precedent here.)

Gaza gets there from here by declaring a state of peace between herself and Israel.

Gaza gets there from here by declaring independence.

Gaza gets there from here by funnelling resources to citizens and infrastructure and her economy rather than war and terrorism.


----------



## teddyearp

Shusha said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> But how does Gaza get THERE from here?  At the moment - the people are under a form of collective punishment for an election
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well no. Gaza is under a blockade (not collective punishment - a blockade) because Gaza imports weapons which are intended and in point of fact used as a means of violence against Israel. The intent of the blockade is to prevent belligerent violent actions against Israel.
> 
> The originating cause of that blockade was not an election. It was (at least) Gaza's government's refusal to recognize Israel, make peace with Israel and honour the agreements made by the previous government.
> 
> The CONTINUING cause of the blockade is the consistent attacks made by Gaza, with the apparently full support of the government of Gaza, against Israel.
> 
> The solution could not be more obvious. Gaza gets THERE from here by declaring an end to any dispute about territory between her and Israel. (Just as Jordan and Egypt did in formal end-of-conflict agreements.  There is a precedence here.)
> 
> Gaza gets there from here by declaring a state of peace between herself and Israel.
> 
> Gaza gets there from here by declaring independence.
> 
> Gaza gets there from here by funnelling resources to citizens and infrastructure and her economy rather than war and terrorism.
Click to expand...


That sums it up very well!


----------



## Shusha

P F Tinmore said:


> Israel is allowed to arrest them.



In my opinion, Israeli military crossing the border to arrest, detain or otherwise control the citizens of what should be considered a separate sovereign territory is unconscionable. The entire point of Israel's defense of its border is to defend the border. It's not to control the territory governed by another elected entity. Therefore to cross that border would be hypocrisy.


----------



## teddyearp

Billo_Really said:


> The Pals are not fucking themselves.


No, but for sure their leadership is fucking them in the arse.



Billo_Really said:


> It's the fascists next door who keep demanding to be recognized.


As are the Palestinians, so why not both? Mutual recognition and peace and respect?

Yay or Nay?


----------



## Shusha

Billo_Really said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> Not what the report states.
> 
> 
> 
> It states the area will be uninhabitable by 2020.  What do you think "uninhabitable" means?
Click to expand...


That is not what the report states. 

If you want to talk about it specifically start a thread.  

But be prepared to discuss water supply and the condition of aquifers in depth because I've done some research in this.


----------



## teddyearp

Humanity said:


> We will just skip over the previous days IDF murders then....<snip>



I am sorry you see it this way and not the truth of what these 'protests' are all about.  Even the UNWRA promoted them.  Why?  Therefore you do not see the propaganda $$$$$ (blood) that have been waged and won, in some poor deluded folks anyways. . . .


----------



## Shusha

Billo_Really said:


> It doesn't matter who owns it.  It only matters that Israel doesn't.



And Doesnt THAT just sum it all up.


----------



## teddyearp

Humanity said:


> I am noticing a change in the Team Israel mantra throughout this thread, it feels that there is a real desire to avoid specifics and simply comment on what, they believe, can be proven.
> 
> It has highlighted that, actually, even some more moderate Team Israel members are actually no better than the "animals" they claim to be fighting against. Has Team Israel become 'radicalized'?
> 
> Reading some of the Team Israel posts reminds me of conspiracy theorists who believe in a core idea BUT cannot put together a united basis of details.


I realize this thread has grown by leaps and bounds and I may be late in replying to this, but are you really saying that the burning tires, Molotov cocktails, chains to pull, and other means to breach the fence are a conspiracy theory?


----------



## teddyearp

Billo_Really said:


> You don't occupy your own land.


But who is occupying?


----------



## Humanity

Shusha said:


> Gaza is under a blockade (not collective punishment - a blockade)



Denying that the blockade is collective punishment is utterly ridiculous!

You have become ridiculous!


----------



## Humanity

Shusha said:


> The entire point of Israel's defense of its border is to defend the border. *It's not to control the territory governed by another elected entity.*



WHAT?

Then end the blockade! That IS "*control of the territory governed by another elected entity*"!

Your posts are so contradictory, you are so desperate to defend the actions of Israel you don't really know what you are saying anymore!


----------



## P F Tinmore

RoccoR said:


> RE:  Israeli forces shoot unarmed protesters from across Gaza security fence, killing at least 15
> ※→  P F Tinmore,  et al,
> 
> I already said it once.  The Arab Palestinian instigators, with the purpose of creating a media event, cannot use civilians to hide behind as a means to avoid IDF targeting.  That is Rules, 23, 24, and 97.  It is not a case of "shooting fish in a barrel."  In fact, the HAMAS instigator is actually, under most case law, guilty of murder in any death on the border related to the commission of grievous bodily harm.
> 
> *Justifiable use of force*
> 
> 
> 
> •  Defense of a Person
> •  Defense of Occupied Structure
> •  Use of Force in Defense of State Property serious damage or destruction
> •  Use of Force in defense of an attack
> •  Use of Force to Prevent Escape from Custody​
> 
> 
> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> Does that give Israel the right to shoot fish in a barrel?
> 
> 
> 
> *(COMMENT)*
> 
> The Government of the Gaza Strip, which seems to be HAMAS, is using civilians in a way that is criminal in the eyes of domestic law.  Human Wave attacks _(swamping the border for political gain)_ is not an acceptable practice.  Once the illegals immigrants step on sovereign Israeli Territory, new rules of domestic law kick-in.  The very same way as when illegal aliens enter the US.
> 
> HAMAS Leaders are guilty of murder _(in one form or another)_ in any border death, resulting from the instigated efforts they inspired.  All most universally accepted justification for the use of forces by LEO's are:
> 
> IF you don't want to see demonstrators and protestors hurt, injured or killed, THEN don't advocate challenging the border.  Mob violence is one of those chaotic events that can run out of control.
> 
> Most Respectfully,
> R
Click to expand...


----------



## Humanity

teddyearp said:


> Humanity said:
> 
> 
> 
> I am noticing a change in the Team Israel mantra throughout this thread, it feels that there is a real desire to avoid specifics and simply comment on what, they believe, can be proven.
> 
> It has highlighted that, actually, even some more moderate Team Israel members are actually no better than the "animals" they claim to be fighting against. Has Team Israel become 'radicalized'?
> 
> Reading some of the Team Israel posts reminds me of conspiracy theorists who believe in a core idea BUT cannot put together a united basis of details.
> 
> 
> 
> I realize this thread has grown by leaps and bounds and I may be late in replying to this, but are you really saying that the burning tires, Molotov cocktails, chains to pull, and other means to breach the fence are a conspiracy theory?
Click to expand...


No.

What I am saying is that the posts and comments being made are a mix of some fact and a lot of BS. There are so many different 'reasons' to defend the actions of the IDF, so many 'reasons' to point the finger squarely at Gazans that, actually there is no cohesion in 'reason'...


----------



## RoccoR

RE:   Israeli forces shoot unarmed protesters from across Gaza security fence, killing at least 15
※→   P F Tinmore, et al,

I don't understand what you think is crazy...



P F Tinmore said:


>


*(COMMENT)*

I understand that a vast majority of the Hostile Arab Palestinians (HoAP) advocate actions "designed or likely to provoke or encourage and threat to the peace, breach of the peace, or act of aggression;" having pledged themselves in Article 56 of the Charter. (Also see A/RES/2/110 (II) Measures to be taken against propaganda and the inciters of a new war.) 

S/RES/1624 (2005) "calls upon all States to cooperate, _inter alia,_ to strengthen the security of their international borders, including by combating fraudulent travel documents and, to the extent attainable, by enhancing terrorist screening and passenger security procedures with a view to preventing those guilty of the conduct in paragraph 1 (a) from entering their territory."

What is it you find entertaining?

Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## fncceo

It would have to be free ... no one is going to pay to take it.


----------



## Coyote

Shusha said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> But how does Gaza get THERE from here?  At the moment - the people are under a form of collective punishment for an election
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well no. Gaza is under a blockade (not collective punishment - a blockade) because Gaza imports weapons which are intended and in point of fact used as a means of violence against Israel. The intent of the blockade is to prevent belligerent violent actions against Israel.
> 
> The originating cause of that blockade was not an election. It was (at least) Gaza's government's refusal to recognize Israel, make peace with Israel and honour the agreements made by the previous government.
> 
> The CONTINUING cause of the blockade is the consistent attacks made by Gaza, with the apparently full support of the government of Gaza, against Israel.
> 
> The solution could not be more obvious. Gaza gets THERE from here by declaring an end to any dispute about territory between her and Israel. (Just as Jordan and Egypt did in formal end-of-conflict agreements.  There is a precedent here.)
> 
> Gaza gets there from here by declaring a state of peace between herself and Israel.
> 
> Gaza gets there from here by declaring independence.
> 
> Gaza gets there from here by funnelling resources to citizens and infrastructure and her economy rather than war and terrorism.
Click to expand...

I disagree, the INTENT of the blockade was a collective punishment of the Gazan’s for electing Hamas. There was no escalation of violence preceding it and no attempts at talks with the new government.  It has gone on for ten years with no inprovement.

How can Gaza declare independence?  When the Palestinians sought any sort of U.N. recognition Israel punished those efforts. Israel punishes Palestinians for Unesco move


----------



## Humanity

fncceo said:


> It would have to be free ... no one is going to pay to take it.



Oh you just gotta love a dumbass comedian...

I'm quite sure that your beloved Israel would happily take full ownership. After all, I'm pretty sure that's their 'final solution'... Hmm sounds familiar!


----------



## Shusha

Humanity said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> The entire point of Israel's defense of its border is to defend the border. *It's not to control the territory governed by another elected entity.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> WHAT?
> 
> Then end the blockade! That IS "*control of the territory governed by another elected entity*"!
> 
> Your posts are so contradictory, you are so desperate to defend the actions of Israel you don't really know what you are saying anymore!
Click to expand...



There is nothing the slightest bit contradictory about my statements. My statements are so consistent I am repeating myself over and over again. 

Declare recognition of Israel. 

Stop attacking Israel. No rockets. No suicide attacks. No stabbings. No threatening to rip Israeli hearts out. 

Declare an end-of-conflict with Israel with no territorial dispute. 

Sign a peace treaty. 

Declare independence. 


This isn't that hard, you guys.


----------



## P F Tinmore

RoccoR said:


> RE:   Israeli forces shoot unarmed protesters from across Gaza security fence, killing at least 15
> ※→   P F Tinmore, et al,
> 
> I don't understand what you think is crazy...
> 
> 
> 
> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *(COMMENT)*
> 
> I understand that a vast majority of the Hostile Arab Palestinians (HoAP) advocate actions "designed or likely to provoke or encourage and threat to the peace, breach of the peace, or act of aggression;" having pledged themselves in Article 56 of the Charter. (Also see A/RES/2/110 (II) Measures to be taken against propaganda and the inciters of a new war.)
> 
> S/RES/1624 (2005) "calls upon all States to cooperate, _inter alia,_ to strengthen the security of their international borders, including by combating fraudulent travel documents and, to the extent attainable, by enhancing terrorist screening and passenger security procedures with a view to preventing those guilty of the conduct in paragraph 1 (a) from entering their territory."
> 
> What is it you find entertaining?
> 
> Most Respectfully,
> R
Click to expand...

You act like this is a violent uprising that give Israel the right to mow down unarmed civilians outside of their own (???) territory. This is a peaceful and legitimate protest. From everything I have seen, there are maybe a handful of people causing problems. Israel needs to find a legitimate way to deal with their problems.

Shooting unarmed civilians is just shooting itself in the foot.


----------



## Shusha

Coyote said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> But how does Gaza get THERE from here?  At the moment - the people are under a form of collective punishment for an election
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well no. Gaza is under a blockade (not collective punishment - a blockade) because Gaza imports weapons which are intended and in point of fact used as a means of violence against Israel. The intent of the blockade is to prevent belligerent violent actions against Israel.
> 
> The originating cause of that blockade was not an election. It was (at least) Gaza's government's refusal to recognize Israel, make peace with Israel and honour the agreements made by the previous government.
> 
> The CONTINUING cause of the blockade is the consistent attacks made by Gaza, with the apparently full support of the government of Gaza, against Israel.
> 
> The solution could not be more obvious. Gaza gets THERE from here by declaring an end to any dispute about territory between her and Israel. (Just as Jordan and Egypt did in formal end-of-conflict agreements.  There is a precedent here.)
> 
> Gaza gets there from here by declaring a state of peace between herself and Israel.
> 
> Gaza gets there from here by declaring independence.
> 
> Gaza gets there from here by funnelling resources to citizens and infrastructure and her economy rather than war and terrorism.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I disagree, the INTENT of the blockade was a collective punishment of the Gazan’s for electing Hamas. There was no escalation of violence preceding it and no attempts at talks with the new government.  It has gone on for ten years with no inprovement.
> 
> How can Gaza declare independence?  When the Palestinians sought any sort of U.N. recognition Israel punished those efforts. Israel punishes Palestinians for Unesco move
Click to expand...



The intent of the blockade was to prevent a terrorist organization which had just been elected government (!!) and refused peace, recognition or to honour agreements from attacking Israel. 

How do you "attempt talks" with a terror organization which has declared these things?  

You seem to say "no escalation of violence" demonstrates sufficient good intent  I disagree. The cessation of ALL violence is the requisite for peace.


----------



## Hollie

P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> 
> RE:   Israeli forces shoot unarmed protesters from across Gaza security fence, killing at least 15
> ※→   P F Tinmore, et al,
> 
> I don't understand what you think is crazy...
> 
> 
> 
> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *(COMMENT)*
> 
> I understand that a vast majority of the Hostile Arab Palestinians (HoAP) advocate actions "designed or likely to provoke or encourage and threat to the peace, breach of the peace, or act of aggression;" having pledged themselves in Article 56 of the Charter. (Also see A/RES/2/110 (II) Measures to be taken against propaganda and the inciters of a new war.)
> 
> S/RES/1624 (2005) "calls upon all States to cooperate, _inter alia,_ to strengthen the security of their international borders, including by combating fraudulent travel documents and, to the extent attainable, by enhancing terrorist screening and passenger security procedures with a view to preventing those guilty of the conduct in paragraph 1 (a) from entering their territory."
> 
> What is it you find entertaining?
> 
> Most Respectfully,
> R
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You act like this is a violent uprising that give Israel the right to mow down unarmed civilians outside of their own (???) territory. This is a peaceful and legitimate protest. From everything I have seen, there are maybe a handful of people causing problems. Israel needs to find a legitimate way to deal with their problems.
> 
> Shooting unarmed civilians is just shooting itself in the foot.
Click to expand...


_Peaceful and legitimate protest_™️ replete with Molotov cocktails and explosives. 

It seems Israel has found a way to deal with its Islamic terrorist problem in a way that keeps the Islamic terrorists at a safe distance from Israeli citizens.


----------



## P F Tinmore

Shusha said:


> by declaring an end to any dispute about territory between her and Israel. (Just as Jordan and Egypt did in formal end-of-conflict agreements. There is a precedent here.)


How much of Egypt and Jordan does Israel occupy?


----------



## P F Tinmore

Shusha said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> But how does Gaza get THERE from here?  At the moment - the people are under a form of collective punishment for an election
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well no. Gaza is under a blockade (not collective punishment - a blockade) because Gaza imports weapons which are intended and in point of fact used as a means of violence against Israel. The intent of the blockade is to prevent belligerent violent actions against Israel.
> 
> The originating cause of that blockade was not an election. It was (at least) Gaza's government's refusal to recognize Israel, make peace with Israel and honour the agreements made by the previous government.
> 
> The CONTINUING cause of the blockade is the consistent attacks made by Gaza, with the apparently full support of the government of Gaza, against Israel.
> 
> The solution could not be more obvious. Gaza gets THERE from here by declaring an end to any dispute about territory between her and Israel. (Just as Jordan and Egypt did in formal end-of-conflict agreements.  There is a precedent here.)
> 
> Gaza gets there from here by declaring a state of peace between herself and Israel.
> 
> Gaza gets there from here by declaring independence.
> 
> Gaza gets there from here by funnelling resources to citizens and infrastructure and her economy rather than war and terrorism.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I disagree, the INTENT of the blockade was a collective punishment of the Gazan’s for electing Hamas. There was no escalation of violence preceding it and no attempts at talks with the new government.  It has gone on for ten years with no inprovement.
> 
> How can Gaza declare independence?  When the Palestinians sought any sort of U.N. recognition Israel punished those efforts. Israel punishes Palestinians for Unesco move
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> The intent of the blockade was to prevent a terrorist organization which had just been elected government (!!) and refused peace, recognition or to honour agreements from attacking Israel.
> 
> How do you "attempt talks" with a terror organization which has declared these things?
> 
> You seem to say "no escalation of violence" demonstrates sufficient good intent  I disagree. The cessation of ALL violence is the requisite for peace.
Click to expand...




Shusha said:


> The cessation of ALL violence is the requisite for peace.


That applies to Israel also.


----------



## Hollie

P F Tinmore said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> But how does Gaza get THERE from here?  At the moment - the people are under a form of collective punishment for an election
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well no. Gaza is under a blockade (not collective punishment - a blockade) because Gaza imports weapons which are intended and in point of fact used as a means of violence against Israel. The intent of the blockade is to prevent belligerent violent actions against Israel.
> 
> The originating cause of that blockade was not an election. It was (at least) Gaza's government's refusal to recognize Israel, make peace with Israel and honour the agreements made by the previous government.
> 
> The CONTINUING cause of the blockade is the consistent attacks made by Gaza, with the apparently full support of the government of Gaza, against Israel.
> 
> The solution could not be more obvious. Gaza gets THERE from here by declaring an end to any dispute about territory between her and Israel. (Just as Jordan and Egypt did in formal end-of-conflict agreements.  There is a precedent here.)
> 
> Gaza gets there from here by declaring a state of peace between herself and Israel.
> 
> Gaza gets there from here by declaring independence.
> 
> Gaza gets there from here by funnelling resources to citizens and infrastructure and her economy rather than war and terrorism.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I disagree, the INTENT of the blockade was a collective punishment of the Gazan’s for electing Hamas. There was no escalation of violence preceding it and no attempts at talks with the new government.  It has gone on for ten years with no inprovement.
> 
> How can Gaza declare independence?  When the Palestinians sought any sort of U.N. recognition Israel punished those efforts. Israel punishes Palestinians for Unesco move
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> The intent of the blockade was to prevent a terrorist organization which had just been elected government (!!) and refused peace, recognition or to honour agreements from attacking Israel.
> 
> How do you "attempt talks" with a terror organization which has declared these things?
> 
> You seem to say "no escalation of violence" demonstrates sufficient good intent  I disagree. The cessation of ALL violence is the requisite for peace.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> The cessation of ALL violence is the requisite for peace.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> That applies to Israel also.
Click to expand...


You obviously are oblivious to the fact that it is not Israel with a written Charter calling for the destruction of Arabs-Moslems. 

Is it Isrealis who are massing on their border calling to invade Gaza’istan and rip the hearts out of Arabs-Moslems?


----------



## P F Tinmore

Hollie said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> 
> RE:   Israeli forces shoot unarmed protesters from across Gaza security fence, killing at least 15
> ※→   P F Tinmore, et al,
> 
> I don't understand what you think is crazy...
> 
> 
> 
> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *(COMMENT)*
> 
> I understand that a vast majority of the Hostile Arab Palestinians (HoAP) advocate actions "designed or likely to provoke or encourage and threat to the peace, breach of the peace, or act of aggression;" having pledged themselves in Article 56 of the Charter. (Also see A/RES/2/110 (II) Measures to be taken against propaganda and the inciters of a new war.)
> 
> S/RES/1624 (2005) "calls upon all States to cooperate, _inter alia,_ to strengthen the security of their international borders, including by combating fraudulent travel documents and, to the extent attainable, by enhancing terrorist screening and passenger security procedures with a view to preventing those guilty of the conduct in paragraph 1 (a) from entering their territory."
> 
> What is it you find entertaining?
> 
> Most Respectfully,
> R
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You act like this is a violent uprising that give Israel the right to mow down unarmed civilians outside of their own (???) territory. This is a peaceful and legitimate protest. From everything I have seen, there are maybe a handful of people causing problems. Israel needs to find a legitimate way to deal with their problems.
> 
> Shooting unarmed civilians is just shooting itself in the foot.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> _Peaceful and legitimate protest_™️ replete with Molotov cocktails and explosives.
> 
> It seems Israel has found a way to deal with its Islamic terrorist problem in a way that keeps the Islamic terrorists at a safe distance from Israeli citizens.
Click to expand...

More terrorist cards. Good good girl. keep that propaganda going.


----------



## Hollie

P F Tinmore said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> 
> RE:   Israeli forces shoot unarmed protesters from across Gaza security fence, killing at least 15
> ※→   P F Tinmore, et al,
> 
> I don't understand what you think is crazy...
> 
> 
> 
> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *(COMMENT)*
> 
> I understand that a vast majority of the Hostile Arab Palestinians (HoAP) advocate actions "designed or likely to provoke or encourage and threat to the peace, breach of the peace, or act of aggression;" having pledged themselves in Article 56 of the Charter. (Also see A/RES/2/110 (II) Measures to be taken against propaganda and the inciters of a new war.)
> 
> S/RES/1624 (2005) "calls upon all States to cooperate, _inter alia,_ to strengthen the security of their international borders, including by combating fraudulent travel documents and, to the extent attainable, by enhancing terrorist screening and passenger security procedures with a view to preventing those guilty of the conduct in paragraph 1 (a) from entering their territory."
> 
> What is it you find entertaining?
> 
> Most Respectfully,
> R
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You act like this is a violent uprising that give Israel the right to mow down unarmed civilians outside of their own (???) territory. This is a peaceful and legitimate protest. From everything I have seen, there are maybe a handful of people causing problems. Israel needs to find a legitimate way to deal with their problems.
> 
> Shooting unarmed civilians is just shooting itself in the foot.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> _Peaceful and legitimate protest_™️ replete with Molotov cocktails and explosives.
> 
> It seems Israel has found a way to deal with its Islamic terrorist problem in a way that keeps the Islamic terrorists at a safe distance from Israeli citizens.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> More terrorist cards. Good good girl. keep that propaganda going.
Click to expand...




P F Tinmore said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> 
> RE:   Israeli forces shoot unarmed protesters from across Gaza security fence, killing at least 15
> ※→   P F Tinmore, et al,
> 
> I don't understand what you think is crazy...
> 
> 
> 
> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *(COMMENT)*
> 
> I understand that a vast majority of the Hostile Arab Palestinians (HoAP) advocate actions "designed or likely to provoke or encourage and threat to the peace, breach of the peace, or act of aggression;" having pledged themselves in Article 56 of the Charter. (Also see A/RES/2/110 (II) Measures to be taken against propaganda and the inciters of a new war.)
> 
> S/RES/1624 (2005) "calls upon all States to cooperate, _inter alia,_ to strengthen the security of their international borders, including by combating fraudulent travel documents and, to the extent attainable, by enhancing terrorist screening and passenger security procedures with a view to preventing those guilty of the conduct in paragraph 1 (a) from entering their territory."
> 
> What is it you find entertaining?
> 
> Most Respectfully,
> R
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You act like this is a violent uprising that give Israel the right to mow down unarmed civilians outside of their own (???) territory. This is a peaceful and legitimate protest. From everything I have seen, there are maybe a handful of people causing problems. Israel needs to find a legitimate way to deal with their problems.
> 
> Shooting unarmed civilians is just shooting itself in the foot.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> _Peaceful and legitimate protest_™️ replete with Molotov cocktails and explosives.
> 
> It seems Israel has found a way to deal with its Islamic terrorist problem in a way that keeps the Islamic terrorists at a safe distance from Israeli citizens.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> More terrorist cards. Good good girl. keep that propaganda going.
Click to expand...


It’s funny to watch you stutter and mumble without actually responding to anything.


----------



## Hollie

Definitely a nominee for Arab-Moslem Mother of the Year award.


----------



## P F Tinmore

Hollie said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> But how does Gaza get THERE from here?  At the moment - the people are under a form of collective punishment for an election
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well no. Gaza is under a blockade (not collective punishment - a blockade) because Gaza imports weapons which are intended and in point of fact used as a means of violence against Israel. The intent of the blockade is to prevent belligerent violent actions against Israel.
> 
> The originating cause of that blockade was not an election. It was (at least) Gaza's government's refusal to recognize Israel, make peace with Israel and honour the agreements made by the previous government.
> 
> The CONTINUING cause of the blockade is the consistent attacks made by Gaza, with the apparently full support of the government of Gaza, against Israel.
> 
> The solution could not be more obvious. Gaza gets THERE from here by declaring an end to any dispute about territory between her and Israel. (Just as Jordan and Egypt did in formal end-of-conflict agreements.  There is a precedent here.)
> 
> Gaza gets there from here by declaring a state of peace between herself and Israel.
> 
> Gaza gets there from here by declaring independence.
> 
> Gaza gets there from here by funnelling resources to citizens and infrastructure and her economy rather than war and terrorism.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I disagree, the INTENT of the blockade was a collective punishment of the Gazan’s for electing Hamas. There was no escalation of violence preceding it and no attempts at talks with the new government.  It has gone on for ten years with no inprovement.
> 
> How can Gaza declare independence?  When the Palestinians sought any sort of U.N. recognition Israel punished those efforts. Israel punishes Palestinians for Unesco move
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> The intent of the blockade was to prevent a terrorist organization which had just been elected government (!!) and refused peace, recognition or to honour agreements from attacking Israel.
> 
> How do you "attempt talks" with a terror organization which has declared these things?
> 
> You seem to say "no escalation of violence" demonstrates sufficient good intent  I disagree. The cessation of ALL violence is the requisite for peace.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> The cessation of ALL violence is the requisite for peace.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> That applies to Israel also.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You obviously are oblivious to the fact that it is not Israel with a written Charter calling for the destruction of Arabs-Moslems.
> 
> Is it Isrealis who are massing on their border calling to invade Gaza’istan and rip the hearts out of Arabs-Moslems?
Click to expand...

It is Israel massing at the border shooting civilians. Are the Palestinians at the border shooting up the Israelis?


----------



## Hossfly

P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> 
> RE:   Israeli forces shoot unarmed protesters from across Gaza security fence, killing at least 15
> ※→   P F Tinmore, et al,
> 
> I don't understand what you think is crazy...
> 
> 
> 
> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *(COMMENT)*
> 
> I understand that a vast majority of the Hostile Arab Palestinians (HoAP) advocate actions "designed or likely to provoke or encourage and threat to the peace, breach of the peace, or act of aggression;" having pledged themselves in Article 56 of the Charter. (Also see A/RES/2/110 (II) Measures to be taken against propaganda and the inciters of a new war.)
> 
> S/RES/1624 (2005) "calls upon all States to cooperate, _inter alia,_ to strengthen the security of their international borders, including by combating fraudulent travel documents and, to the extent attainable, by enhancing terrorist screening and passenger security procedures with a view to preventing those guilty of the conduct in paragraph 1 (a) from entering their territory."
> 
> What is it you find entertaining?
> 
> Most Respectfully,
> R
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You act like this is a violent uprising that give Israel the right to mow down unarmed civilians outside of their own (???) territory. This is a peaceful and legitimate protest. From everything I have seen, there are maybe a handful of people causing problems. Israel needs to find a legitimate way to deal with their problems.
> 
> Shooting unarmed civilians is just shooting itself in the foot.
Click to expand...

Those unarmed civilians could arm themselves. Peaceful, huh?


----------



## Hollie

P F Tinmore said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well no. Gaza is under a blockade (not collective punishment - a blockade) because Gaza imports weapons which are intended and in point of fact used as a means of violence against Israel. The intent of the blockade is to prevent belligerent violent actions against Israel.
> 
> The originating cause of that blockade was not an election. It was (at least) Gaza's government's refusal to recognize Israel, make peace with Israel and honour the agreements made by the previous government.
> 
> The CONTINUING cause of the blockade is the consistent attacks made by Gaza, with the apparently full support of the government of Gaza, against Israel.
> 
> The solution could not be more obvious. Gaza gets THERE from here by declaring an end to any dispute about territory between her and Israel. (Just as Jordan and Egypt did in formal end-of-conflict agreements.  There is a precedent here.)
> 
> Gaza gets there from here by declaring a state of peace between herself and Israel.
> 
> Gaza gets there from here by declaring independence.
> 
> Gaza gets there from here by funnelling resources to citizens and infrastructure and her economy rather than war and terrorism.
> 
> 
> 
> I disagree, the INTENT of the blockade was a collective punishment of the Gazan’s for electing Hamas. There was no escalation of violence preceding it and no attempts at talks with the new government.  It has gone on for ten years with no inprovement.
> 
> How can Gaza declare independence?  When the Palestinians sought any sort of U.N. recognition Israel punished those efforts. Israel punishes Palestinians for Unesco move
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> The intent of the blockade was to prevent a terrorist organization which had just been elected government (!!) and refused peace, recognition or to honour agreements from attacking Israel.
> 
> How do you "attempt talks" with a terror organization which has declared these things?
> 
> You seem to say "no escalation of violence" demonstrates sufficient good intent  I disagree. The cessation of ALL violence is the requisite for peace.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> The cessation of ALL violence is the requisite for peace.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> That applies to Israel also.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You obviously are oblivious to the fact that it is not Israel with a written Charter calling for the destruction of Arabs-Moslems.
> 
> Is it Isrealis who are massing on their border calling to invade Gaza’istan and rip the hearts out of Arabs-Moslems?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> It is Israel massing at the border shooting civilians. Are the Palestinians at the border shooting up the Israelis?
Click to expand...


You’re not paying attention. A number of the dead Islamics were members of the Islamic terrorist “military wing” of Hamas. It is Israel defending a border from Islamic terrorists.

IDF: At least 10 of the 15 killed at Gaza border were members of terror groups

Why do you believe that islamo-rioters with Molotov cocktails and explosives are allowed an entitlement to that behavior?

How cowardly of you to flail your Pom Poms and encourage others to act upon your Jooooooo hatreds while you sit behind a keyboard.


----------



## P F Tinmore

Hollie said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> I disagree, the INTENT of the blockade was a collective punishment of the Gazan’s for electing Hamas. There was no escalation of violence preceding it and no attempts at talks with the new government.  It has gone on for ten years with no inprovement.
> 
> How can Gaza declare independence?  When the Palestinians sought any sort of U.N. recognition Israel punished those efforts. Israel punishes Palestinians for Unesco move
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The intent of the blockade was to prevent a terrorist organization which had just been elected government (!!) and refused peace, recognition or to honour agreements from attacking Israel.
> 
> How do you "attempt talks" with a terror organization which has declared these things?
> 
> You seem to say "no escalation of violence" demonstrates sufficient good intent  I disagree. The cessation of ALL violence is the requisite for peace.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> The cessation of ALL violence is the requisite for peace.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> That applies to Israel also.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You obviously are oblivious to the fact that it is not Israel with a written Charter calling for the destruction of Arabs-Moslems.
> 
> Is it Isrealis who are massing on their border calling to invade Gaza’istan and rip the hearts out of Arabs-Moslems?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> It is Israel massing at the border shooting civilians. Are the Palestinians at the border shooting up the Israelis?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You’re not paying attention. A number of the dead Islamics were members of the Islamic terrorist “military wing” of Hamas. It is Israel defending a border from Islamic terrorists.
> 
> IDF: At least 10 of the 15 killed at Gaza border were members of terror groups
> 
> Why do you believe that islamo-rioters with Molotov cocktails and explosives are allowed an entitlement to that behavior?
> 
> How cowardly of you to flail your Pom Poms and encourage others to act upon your Jooooooo hatreds while you sit behind a keyboard.
Click to expand...

Oooooo, terrorists. 
How many Israeli goontards have been hurt?


----------



## Shusha

P F Tinmore said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> by declaring an end to any dispute about territory between her and Israel. (Just as Jordan and Egypt did in formal end-of-conflict agreements. There is a precedent here.)
> 
> 
> 
> How much of Egypt and Jordan does Israel occupy?
Click to expand...


None now. They abandoned it when they made peace with Israel. 

When Gaza makes peace with Israel it will abandon all claims to Israel. Just as Israel has abandoned all claims to a Gaza in practice. And will in formal treaty.


----------



## P F Tinmore

Israeli propaganda bullshit calls this a violent riot.


----------



## Hollie

P F Tinmore said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> The intent of the blockade was to prevent a terrorist organization which had just been elected government (!!) and refused peace, recognition or to honour agreements from attacking Israel.
> 
> How do you "attempt talks" with a terror organization which has declared these things?
> 
> You seem to say "no escalation of violence" demonstrates sufficient good intent  I disagree. The cessation of ALL violence is the requisite for peace.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> The cessation of ALL violence is the requisite for peace.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> That applies to Israel also.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You obviously are oblivious to the fact that it is not Israel with a written Charter calling for the destruction of Arabs-Moslems.
> 
> Is it Isrealis who are massing on their border calling to invade Gaza’istan and rip the hearts out of Arabs-Moslems?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> It is Israel massing at the border shooting civilians. Are the Palestinians at the border shooting up the Israelis?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You’re not paying attention. A number of the dead Islamics were members of the Islamic terrorist “military wing” of Hamas. It is Israel defending a border from Islamic terrorists.
> 
> IDF: At least 10 of the 15 killed at Gaza border were members of terror groups
> 
> Why do you believe that islamo-rioters with Molotov cocktails and explosives are allowed an entitlement to that behavior?
> 
> How cowardly of you to flail your Pom Poms and encourage others to act upon your Jooooooo hatreds while you sit behind a keyboard.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Oooooo, terrorists.
> How many Israeli goontards have been hurt?
Click to expand...


Your schoolboy hurt feelings are your own to deal with. 

Why would you whine and moan about dead / injured Arabs-Moslems when your Islamic terrorist heroes in Hamas encourage them to take one for the cause and have a graduated pay scale for the willingly vacant-minded?


----------



## Hollie

P F Tinmore said:


> Israeli propaganda bullshit calls this a violent riot.



I’d call it a money making opportunity for those Islamic terrorists willing to sacrifice for the Death Cult. 

That excludes you, of course. You’re expected to do nothing more than cut and paste YouTube videos.


----------



## Billo_Really

teddyearp said:


> No, but for sure their leadership is fucking them in the arse.
> 
> 
> As are the Palestinians, so why not both? Mutual recognition and peace and respect?
> 
> Yay or Nay?


Yay.

Now I demand recognition as one of the few posters at this website who are not afraid to answer direct questions.

In the words of Muhammed Ali...

_*"It is said that a great man knows his faults; my only fault, is not knowing just how great I really am!"*_​


----------



## P F Tinmore

Shusha said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> by declaring an end to any dispute about territory between her and Israel. (Just as Jordan and Egypt did in formal end-of-conflict agreements. There is a precedent here.)
> 
> 
> 
> How much of Egypt and Jordan does Israel occupy?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> None now. They abandoned it when they made peace with Israel.
> 
> When Gaza makes peace with Israel it will abandon all claims to Israel. Just as Israel has abandoned all claims to a Gaza in practice. And will in formal treaty.
Click to expand...

When Israel gets out of Palestine there will be peace.


----------



## Billo_Really

Shusha said:


> That is not what the report states.


It looks exactly like the report states.

*Gaza could become uninhabitable in less than five years due to ongoing ‘de-development’– UN report*​



Shusha said:


> If you want to talk about it specifically start a thread.
> 
> But be prepared to discuss water supply and the condition of aquifers in depth because I've done some research in this.


Then you should know 95% of the water is undrinkable.

_"Gaza’s 1.8 million inhabitants rely on coastal aquifers as their main source of freshwater, yet 95 per cent of this water is not safe to drink."_​


----------



## harmonica

good--keep shooting the violent, murderous terrorists


----------



## harmonica

P F Tinmore said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> by declaring an end to any dispute about territory between her and Israel. (Just as Jordan and Egypt did in formal end-of-conflict agreements. There is a precedent here.)
> 
> 
> 
> How much of Egypt and Jordan does Israel occupy?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> None now. They abandoned it when they made peace with Israel.
> 
> When Gaza makes peace with Israel it will abandon all claims to Israel. Just as Israel has abandoned all claims to a Gaza in practice. And will in formal treaty.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> When Israel gets out of Palestine there will be peace.
Click to expand...

there will be peace when Israel justifiably shoves them into the sea


----------



## P F Tinmore

Hollie said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> Israeli propaganda bullshit calls this a violent riot.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I’d call it a money making opportunity for those Islamic terrorists willing to sacrifice for the Death Cult.
> 
> That excludes you, of course. You’re expected to do nothing more than cut and paste YouTube videos.
Click to expand...

Deflection.


----------



## Billo_Really

Shusha said:


> And Doesnt THAT just sum it all up.


That's all you need to know.

You don't go on to someone else's property and start telling them what's what.


----------



## Billo_Really

teddyearp said:


> But who is occupying?


The Dutch!


----------



## ILOVEISRAEL

P F Tinmore said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well no. Gaza is under a blockade (not collective punishment - a blockade) because Gaza imports weapons which are intended and in point of fact used as a means of violence against Israel. The intent of the blockade is to prevent belligerent violent actions against Israel.
> 
> The originating cause of that blockade was not an election. It was (at least) Gaza's government's refusal to recognize Israel, make peace with Israel and honour the agreements made by the previous government.
> 
> The CONTINUING cause of the blockade is the consistent attacks made by Gaza, with the apparently full support of the government of Gaza, against Israel.
> 
> The solution could not be more obvious. Gaza gets THERE from here by declaring an end to any dispute about territory between her and Israel. (Just as Jordan and Egypt did in formal end-of-conflict agreements.  There is a precedent here.)
> 
> Gaza gets there from here by declaring a state of peace between herself and Israel.
> 
> Gaza gets there from here by declaring independence.
> 
> Gaza gets there from here by funnelling resources to citizens and infrastructure and her economy rather than war and terrorism.
> 
> 
> 
> I disagree, the INTENT of the blockade was a collective punishment of the Gazan’s for electing Hamas. There was no escalation of violence preceding it and no attempts at talks with the new government.  It has gone on for ten years with no inprovement.
> 
> How can Gaza declare independence?  When the Palestinians sought any sort of U.N. recognition Israel punished those efforts. Israel punishes Palestinians for Unesco move
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> The intent of the blockade was to prevent a terrorist organization which had just been elected government (!!) and refused peace, recognition or to honour agreements from attacking Israel.
> 
> How do you "attempt talks" with a terror organization which has declared these things?
> 
> You seem to say "no escalation of violence" demonstrates sufficient good intent  I disagree. The cessation of ALL violence is the requisite for peace.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> The cessation of ALL violence is the requisite for peace.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> That applies to Israel also.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You obviously are oblivious to the fact that it is not Israel with a written Charter calling for the destruction of Arabs-Moslems.
> 
> Is it Isrealis who are massing on their border calling to invade Gaza’istan and rip the hearts out of Arabs-Moslems?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> It is Israel massing at the border shooting civilians. Are the Palestinians at the border shooting up the Israelis?
Click to expand...


“
Civilians” with Malatov Cocktails, Using Home


Billo_Really said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> And Doesnt THAT just sum it all up.
> 
> 
> 
> That's all you need to know.
> 
> You don't go on to someone else's property and start telling them what's what.
Click to expand...


“ Right of Return@ is DOA ! The more they protest with Malatov Cocktails, Fires, Bow and Arrows, etc. the more.will get killed.


----------



## Billo_Really

ILOVEISRAEL said:


> “
> Civilians” with Malatov Cocktails, Using Home
> 
> 
> “ Right of Return@ is DOA ! The more they protest with Malatov Cocktails, Fires, Bow and Arrows, etc. the more.will get killed.


It is illegal to use lethal force, unless your life is directly threatened. You cannot use lethal force for crowd control.  And burning a tire on ones own property, is not a threat to your fascist, piece of shit, life.


----------



## ILOVEISRAEL

Hollie said:


> Billo_Really said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ILOVEISRAEL said:
> 
> 
> 
> “
> Civilians” with Malatov Cocktails, Using Home
> 
> 
> “ Right of Return@ is DOA ! The more they protest with Malatov Cocktails, Fires, Bow and Arrows, etc. the more.will get killed.
> 
> 
> 
> It is illegal to use lethal force, unless your life is directly threatened. You cannot use lethal force for crowd control.  And burning a tire on ones own property, is not a threat to your fascist, piece of shit, life.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I’m not aware that Islamic terrorists agree with your interpretation of law. You and Tinmore seem to have attended the same law school that graduates people with no understanding of, well, anything.
> 
> Perhaps you could do some overseas outreach and stand in front of an Islamist Death Cultist holding a weapon, with that koranified stare of gee-had and advise him of his responsibilities under the law.
> 
> There’s a good fellow.
Click to expand...


 You mean “ International Law?” Now, THAT is funny!    ( Just being sarcastic, Hollie)


----------



## Toddsterpatriot

Billo_Really said:


> Toddsterpatriot said:
> 
> 
> 
> do.
> 
> Count on the Palestinians to fuck themselves up over such a stupid issue.
> 
> 
> 
> The Pals are not fucking themselves.  It's the fascists next door who keep demanding to be recognized.
Click to expand...


*The Pals are not fucking themselves.
*
So where is the Palestinian success?


----------



## Billo_Really

Hollie said:


> I’m not aware that Islamic terrorists agree with your interpretation of law. You and Tinmore seem to have attended the same law school that graduates people with no understanding of, well, anything.
> 
> Perhaps you could do some overseas outreach and stand in front of an Islamist Death Cultist holding a weapon, with that koranified stare of gee-had and advise him of his responsibilities under the law.
> 
> There’s a good fellow.


The Pals are not terrorists.


----------



## Billo_Really

ILOVEISRAEL said:


> You mean “ International Law?” Now, THAT is funny!    ( Just being sarcastic, Hollie)


International humanitarian law.  Which the inhuman Zionists wouldn't know anything about.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot

Billo_Really said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> That is not what the report states.
> 
> 
> 
> It looks exactly like the report states.
> 
> *Gaza could become uninhabitable in less than five years due to ongoing ‘de-development’– UN report*​
> 
> 
> 
> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> If you want to talk about it specifically start a thread.
> 
> But be prepared to discuss water supply and the condition of aquifers in depth because I've done some research in this.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Then you should know 95% of the water is undrinkable.
> 
> _"Gaza’s 1.8 million inhabitants rely on coastal aquifers as their main source of freshwater, yet 95 per cent of this water is not safe to drink."_​
Click to expand...


Maybe tunnel and rocket spending should be re-directed toward clean water?


----------



## P F Tinmore

Toddsterpatriot said:


> Billo_Really said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> That is not what the report states.
> 
> 
> 
> It looks exactly like the report states.
> 
> *Gaza could become uninhabitable in less than five years due to ongoing ‘de-development’– UN report*​
> 
> 
> 
> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> If you want to talk about it specifically start a thread.
> 
> But be prepared to discuss water supply and the condition of aquifers in depth because I've done some research in this.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Then you should know 95% of the water is undrinkable.
> 
> _"Gaza’s 1.8 million inhabitants rely on coastal aquifers as their main source of freshwater, yet 95 per cent of this water is not safe to drink."_​
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Maybe tunnel and rocket spending should be re-directed toward clean water?
Click to expand...

They can't. Israel will not allow them to import what they need to rebuild their systems.

You need to keep up.


----------



## Billo_Really

Toddsterpatriot said:


> Maybe tunnel and rocket spending should be re-directed toward clean water?


You cannot direct the rockets. They're too primitive.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot

P F Tinmore said:


> Toddsterpatriot said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Billo_Really said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> That is not what the report states.
> 
> 
> 
> It looks exactly like the report states.
> 
> *Gaza could become uninhabitable in less than five years due to ongoing ‘de-development’– UN report*​
> 
> 
> 
> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> If you want to talk about it specifically start a thread.
> 
> But be prepared to discuss water supply and the condition of aquifers in depth because I've done some research in this.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Then you should know 95% of the water is undrinkable.
> 
> _"Gaza’s 1.8 million inhabitants rely on coastal aquifers as their main source of freshwater, yet 95 per cent of this water is not safe to drink."_​
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Maybe tunnel and rocket spending should be re-directed toward clean water?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> They can't. Israel will not allow them to import what they need to rebuild their systems.
> 
> You need to keep up.
Click to expand...


Well, when your imports end up building rockets and tunnels, they tend to get restricted.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot

Billo_Really said:


> Toddsterpatriot said:
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe tunnel and rocket spending should be re-directed toward clean water?
> 
> 
> 
> You cannot direct the rockets. They're too primitive.
Click to expand...


I know they can't direct the rockets, that's why their use is a war crime.


----------



## RoccoR

RE: Israeli forces shoot unarmed protesters from across Gaza security fence, killing at least 15
※→ Coyote, et al,

The Joint Egyptian-Israeli blockade started in 2007. That is a year after the Population of Gaza elected HAMAS into power.  Two years after the unilateral withdraw in 2005.




​
The indiscriminate rocket fire was on the rise in the first three years of the new century; but began a decline, down 100 launches from a high of nearly 300 in 2004 → the year before the unilateral withdraw of 2005.  In the two years immediately prior to the tightening of the Israeli Measures to prevent, combat and eradicate the illicit manufacturing of and trafficking in firearms, their parts, and components and
ammunition, owing to the harmful effects of those activities on the security of each State or Region.



Coyote said:


> I disagree, the INTENT of the blockade was a collective punishment of the Gazan’s for electing Hamas.


*(COMMENT)*

What evidence is there that the Israelis are doing something other than executing actions to prevent, combat and eradicate the illicit manufacturing of and trafficking in firearms, their parts and components and ammunition, owing to the harmful effects of those activities on the security of each State or Region.

What evidence is there to suggest that Israel is doing something other than strengthening the security of their international borders, including by combating fraudulent travel documents and, to the extent attainable, by enhancing terrorist screening and passenger security procedures with a view to preventing those from entering their territory;

(_The Imperative to Combat Terrorism in all its forms and Manifestations by all means, in accordance with the Charter of the United Nations_)

_(Protocol against the Illicit Manufacturing of and Trafficking in Firearms, Their Parts and Components and Ammunition, supplementing the United Nations Convention against Transnational Organized Crime) _
_(The United Nations General Assembly adopted the Global Counter-Terrorism Strategy.  The strategy is a unique global instrument to enhance national, regional and international efforts to counter terrorism.) _​


Coyote said:


> There was no escalation of violence preceding it and no attempts at talks with the new government.  It has gone on for ten years with no improvement.


*(COMMENT)*

As you can see, there was almost a 200% increase in the two years prior to the blockade --- see above _(supra)_.



Coyote said:


> How can Gaza declare independence?  When the Palestinians sought any sort of U.N. recognition Israel punished those efforts. Israel punishes Palestinians for Unesco move



*(COMMENT)*

Gaza is already wrapped-up with the West Bank.  They would have to disengage.

It is important to remember that under Customary Law, those that have not already accepted a different citizenship, those that have acquired a new nationality, and enjoys the protection of the country of his new nationality are no longer considered a "refugee."

In terms of "Rule 103 - Collective Punishment" - Customary and IHL considers:

•  Summary  •
However, the prohibition of collective punishments is wider in scope because it does not only apply to criminal sanctions but also to “sanctions and harassment of any sort, administrative, by police action or otherwise”.​
Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## P F Tinmore

RoccoR said:


> the year before the unilateral withdraw of 2005.


You forgot to mention that part of the so called disengagement was a system of closure.


----------



## P F Tinmore

RoccoR said:


> That is a year after the Population of Gaza elected HAMAS into power.


Misleading, Hamas was not elected in Gaza.


----------



## P F Tinmore

RoccoR said:


> executing actions to prevent, combat and eradicate the illicit manufacturing of and trafficking in firearms,


Countries make and trade arms all of the time.

What do you mean illicit?


----------



## Hollie

P F Tinmore said:


> Toddsterpatriot said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Billo_Really said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> That is not what the report states.
> 
> 
> 
> It looks exactly like the report states.
> 
> *Gaza could become uninhabitable in less than five years due to ongoing ‘de-development’– UN report*​
> 
> 
> 
> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> If you want to talk about it specifically start a thread.
> 
> But be prepared to discuss water supply and the condition of aquifers in depth because I've done some research in this.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Then you should know 95% of the water is undrinkable.
> 
> _"Gaza’s 1.8 million inhabitants rely on coastal aquifers as their main source of freshwater, yet 95 per cent of this water is not safe to drink."_​
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Maybe tunnel and rocket spending should be re-directed toward clean water?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> They can't. Israel will not allow them to import what they need to rebuild their systems.
> 
> You need to keep up.
Click to expand...


You need to keep up. Islamist terrorism is facilitated by directing UNRWA welfare funds to arms and ammunition for Hamas and other Islamic terrorist franchises.


----------



## Coyote

Shusha said:


> Humanity said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> The entire point of Israel's defense of its border is to defend the border. *It's not to control the territory governed by another elected entity.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> WHAT?
> 
> Then end the blockade! That IS "*control of the territory governed by another elected entity*"!
> 
> Your posts are so contradictory, you are so desperate to defend the actions of Israel you don't really know what you are saying anymore!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> There is nothing the slightest bit contradictory about my statements. My statements are so consistent I am repeating myself over and over again.
> 
> Declare recognition of Israel.
> 
> Stop attacking Israel. No rockets. No suicide attacks. No stabbings. No threatening to rip Israeli hearts out.
> 
> Declare an end-of-conflict with Israel with no territorial dispute.
> 
> Sign a peace treaty.
> 
> Declare independence.
> 
> 
> This isn't that hard, you guys.
Click to expand...



What does "with no territorial dispute" mean?


----------



## Coyote

Hollie said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> I disagree, the INTENT of the blockade was a collective punishment of the Gazan’s for electing Hamas. There was no escalation of violence preceding it and no attempts at talks with the new government.  It has gone on for ten years with no inprovement.
> 
> How can Gaza declare independence?  When the Palestinians sought any sort of U.N. recognition Israel punished those efforts. Israel punishes Palestinians for Unesco move
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The intent of the blockade was to prevent a terrorist organization which had just been elected government (!!) and refused peace, recognition or to honour agreements from attacking Israel.
> 
> How do you "attempt talks" with a terror organization which has declared these things?
> 
> You seem to say "no escalation of violence" demonstrates sufficient good intent  I disagree. The cessation of ALL violence is the requisite for peace.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> The cessation of ALL violence is the requisite for peace.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> That applies to Israel also.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You obviously are oblivious to the fact that it is not Israel with a written Charter calling for the destruction of Arabs-Moslems.
> 
> Is it Isrealis who are massing on their border calling to invade Gaza’istan and rip the hearts out of Arabs-Moslems?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> It is Israel massing at the border shooting civilians. Are the Palestinians at the border shooting up the Israelis?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You’re not paying attention. *A number of the dead Islamics were members of the Islamic terrorist “military wing” of Hamas*. It is Israel defending a border from Islamic terrorists.
> 
> IDF: At least 10 of the 15 killed at Gaza border were members of terror groups
> 
> Why do you believe that islamo-rioters with Molotov cocktails and explosives are allowed an entitlement to that behavior?
> 
> How cowardly of you to flail your Pom Poms and encourage others to act upon your Jooooooo hatreds while you sit behind a keyboard.
Click to expand...


That is debatable at this point.  The Israeli Defense Minister made that claim about the murdered journalist - and provided zero substantiation.  I'm rather cynical about these claims.


----------



## Coyote

RoccoR said:


> RE: Israeli forces shoot unarmed protesters from across Gaza security fence, killing at least 15
> ※→ Coyote, et al,
> 
> The Joint Egyptian-Israeli blockade started in 2007. That is a year after the Population of Gaza elected HAMAS into power.  Two years after the unilateral withdraw in 2005.
> 
> View attachment 187928​
> The indiscriminate rocket fire was on the rise in the first three years of the new century; *but began a decline, down 100 launches from a high of nearly 300 in 2004 → the year before the unilateral withdraw of 2005. * In the two years immediately prior to the tightening of the Israeli Measures to prevent, combat and eradicate the illicit manufacturing of and trafficking in firearms, their parts, and components and ammunition, owing to the harmful effects of those activities on the security of each State or Region.



Ok...that's a good chart.  So rockets increased after Hamas was elected into power.  That still does not mean the blockade is NOT collective punishment* because it PUNISHES everyone - severely*.  This in particular impacts the ability of Gazans to access healthcare, including life saving healthcare, adequate food, water and electricity. Most recently, Abbas has joined with Israel in adding pressure to Gaza through withholding aid.  Given their economy is in shambles they can not export goods, leave to work, or import goods - most Gazans depend on aid.

Bitter Palestinian rivalry adds to the agony of Gaza’s vulnerable

_In Shifa hospital, Gaza, tiny premature babies, some with multiple infections, others with congenital diseases, lie packed together in incubators, struggling for life amid a tangle of tubes as lights flicker. With electricity virtually cut off, their life support is powered by a generator with a variable current.


The health of several of the babies is so poor they should have been transferred out of Gaza to modern intensive care units elsewhere, but permission to leave has been refused.


The decades-long agony of Gaza has moved into a new phase in which the very weakest lives of all are being sacrificed in a political power struggle played out beyond Gaza’s barrier wall.

Nowhere is the new intensified stranglehold more painful to observe than on the wards of Shifa. During the 2014 war, which killed more than 2,300 Palestinians, including about 500 children – leaving 1,000 permanently disabled – the beds were full of the injured. Today the doctors are struggling to save lives not damaged by bombs but by the impact of the blockade.

Kidney dialysis, intensive care and neonatal units are all in crisis. The Palestinian Authority in Ramallah on the West Bank has refused to pay for medicines, which are now critically depleted even for those in most need. Payments due to Israel each time patients are transferred are also being blocked, so that babies in need of critical care as well as cancer patients are refused permits to leave for treatment in the West Bank and Israel. Doctors say 10 cancer patients who have died in the past month could have been saved if they had been transferred.


As emergency cases back up in Gaza’s hospitals, other crises that have built up over the 11 years of siege and conflict are being brought to light. The immediate crisis in cancer care is exacerbated by the steep rise in cancer cases across Gaza, for which medical services were ill-equipped to start with.


According to Dr Khaled Thabet, head of oncology at Shifa, cancer rates in Gaza are rising steeply. He cites 90 cases per 100,000 people in 2016 compared with 65 in 2010. The rates are worryingly high given the unusually young population, with 60% of Gazans under 25. He blames the impact of three consecutive wars on Gaza, which have left poisonous elements in the soil and water, including depleted uranium. Daily use of insecticides by Israel to clear border areas is also blamed. Such is the shortage of clean water there are fears of cholera._​


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> I disagree, the INTENT of the blockade was a collective punishment of the Gazan’s for electing Hamas.
> 
> 
> 
> *(COMMENT)*
> 
> What evidence is there that the Israelis are doing something other than executing actions to prevent, combat and eradicate the illicit manufacturing of and trafficking in firearms, their parts and components and ammunition, owing to the harmful effects of those activities on the security of each State or Region.
> 
> What evidence is there to suggest that Israel is doing something other than strengthening the security of their international borders, including by combating fraudulent travel documents and, to the extent attainable, by enhancing terrorist screening and passenger security procedures with a view to preventing those from entering their territory;
> 
> (_The Imperative to Combat Terrorism in all its forms and Manifestations by all means, in accordance with the Charter of the United Nations_)
> 
> _(Protocol against the Illicit Manufacturing of and Trafficking in Firearms, Their Parts and Components and Ammunition, supplementing the United Nations Convention against Transnational Organized Crime) _
> _(The United Nations General Assembly adopted the Global Counter-Terrorism Strategy.  The strategy is a unique global instrument to enhance national, regional and international efforts to counter terrorism.) _​
Click to expand...


Why are medical supplies in such short supply?  Why is food so restricted?  Why is clean water restricted?  Why is electricity so restricted.   None, as far as I know, are part of making arms.



> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> There was no escalation of violence preceding it and no attempts at talks with the new government.  It has gone on for ten years with no improvement.
> 
> 
> 
> *(COMMENT)*
> 
> As you can see, there was almost a 200% increase in the two years prior to the blockade --- see above _(supra)_.
Click to expand...


I agree, the chart was enlightening.




> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> How can Gaza declare independence?  When the Palestinians sought any sort of U.N. recognition Israel punished those efforts. Israel punishes Palestinians for Unesco move
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *(COMMENT)*
> 
> Gaza is already wrapped-up with the West Bank.  They would have to disengage.
> 
> It is important to remember that under Customary Law, those that have not already accepted a different citizenship, those that have acquired a new nationality, and enjoys the protection of the country of his new nationality are no longer considered a "refugee."
> 
> In terms of "Rule 103 - Collective Punishment" - Customary and IHL considers:
> 
> •  Summary  •
> However, the prohibition of collective punishments is wider in scope because it does not only apply to criminal sanctions but also to “sanctions and harassment of any sort, administrative, by police action or otherwise”.​
> Most Respectfully,
> R
Click to expand...


----------



## rylah

Coyote said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> The intent of the blockade was to prevent a terrorist organization which had just been elected government (!!) and refused peace, recognition or to honour agreements from attacking Israel.
> 
> How do you "attempt talks" with a terror organization which has declared these things?
> 
> You seem to say "no escalation of violence" demonstrates sufficient good intent  I disagree. The cessation of ALL violence is the requisite for peace.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> The cessation of ALL violence is the requisite for peace.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> That applies to Israel also.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You obviously are oblivious to the fact that it is not Israel with a written Charter calling for the destruction of Arabs-Moslems.
> 
> Is it Isrealis who are massing on their border calling to invade Gaza’istan and rip the hearts out of Arabs-Moslems?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> It is Israel massing at the border shooting civilians. Are the Palestinians at the border shooting up the Israelis?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You’re not paying attention. *A number of the dead Islamics were members of the Islamic terrorist “military wing” of Hamas*. It is Israel defending a border from Islamic terrorists.
> 
> IDF: At least 10 of the 15 killed at Gaza border were members of terror groups
> 
> Why do you believe that islamo-rioters with Molotov cocktails and explosives are allowed an entitlement to that behavior?
> 
> How cowardly of you to flail your Pom Poms and encourage others to act upon your Jooooooo hatreds while you sit behind a keyboard.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> That is debatable at this point.  The Israeli Defense Minister made that claim about the murdered journalist - and provided zero substantiation.  I'm rather cynical about these claims.
Click to expand...



Israel has proven more than enough and in detail with videos and photos from Hamas itself, the journalist case is being investigated.
Gazans on the other hand have proven beyond any doubt that the aim of the riot is violence.

The insistence on making this case symbolic of the whole confrontation, is an attempt to dissolve Hamas from any responsibility and water down the extent of violence they initiated at the border.

Again it's either a peaceful festival or a declaration of war - Gazans can't have it both ways, hold ice cream in one hand and throw a granade with the other.


----------



## Coyote

rylah said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> That applies to Israel also.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You obviously are oblivious to the fact that it is not Israel with a written Charter calling for the destruction of Arabs-Moslems.
> 
> Is it Isrealis who are massing on their border calling to invade Gaza’istan and rip the hearts out of Arabs-Moslems?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> It is Israel massing at the border shooting civilians. Are the Palestinians at the border shooting up the Israelis?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You’re not paying attention. *A number of the dead Islamics were members of the Islamic terrorist “military wing” of Hamas*. It is Israel defending a border from Islamic terrorists.
> 
> IDF: At least 10 of the 15 killed at Gaza border were members of terror groups
> 
> Why do you believe that islamo-rioters with Molotov cocktails and explosives are allowed an entitlement to that behavior?
> 
> How cowardly of you to flail your Pom Poms and encourage others to act upon your Jooooooo hatreds while you sit behind a keyboard.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> That is debatable at this point.  The Israeli Defense Minister made that claim about the murdered journalist - and provided zero substantiation.  I'm rather cynical about these claims.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Israel has proven more than enough and in detail with videos and photos from Hamas itself, the journalist case is being investigated.
> Gazans on the other hand have proven beyond any doubt that the aim of the riot is violence.
> 
> The insistence on making this case symbolic of the whole confrontation, is an attempt to dissolve Hamas from any responsibility and water down the extent of violence they initiated at the border.
> 
> Again it's either a peaceful festival or a declaration of war - Gazans can't have it both ways, hold ice cream in one hand and throw a granade with the other.
Click to expand...



I am not absolving Hamas of anything.  But journalists are threatened and restricted in many parts of the world.  Shooting one, and then possibly LYING about it and smearing his reputation to justify it from as high a level as Defense Minister is crap.  It's not just that it's a single case.  It's an important one.


----------



## rylah

Coyote said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> You obviously are oblivious to the fact that it is not Israel with a written Charter calling for the destruction of Arabs-Moslems.
> 
> Is it Isrealis who are massing on their border calling to invade Gaza’istan and rip the hearts out of Arabs-Moslems?
> 
> 
> 
> It is Israel massing at the border shooting civilians. Are the Palestinians at the border shooting up the Israelis?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You’re not paying attention. *A number of the dead Islamics were members of the Islamic terrorist “military wing” of Hamas*. It is Israel defending a border from Islamic terrorists.
> 
> IDF: At least 10 of the 15 killed at Gaza border were members of terror groups
> 
> Why do you believe that islamo-rioters with Molotov cocktails and explosives are allowed an entitlement to that behavior?
> 
> How cowardly of you to flail your Pom Poms and encourage others to act upon your Jooooooo hatreds while you sit behind a keyboard.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> That is debatable at this point.  The Israeli Defense Minister made that claim about the murdered journalist - and provided zero substantiation.  I'm rather cynical about these claims.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Israel has proven more than enough and in detail with videos and photos from Hamas itself, the journalist case is being investigated.
> Gazans on the other hand have proven beyond any doubt that the aim of the riot is violence.
> 
> The insistence on making this case symbolic of the whole confrontation, is an attempt to dissolve Hamas from any responsibility and water down the extent of violence they initiated at the border.
> 
> Again it's either a peaceful festival or a declaration of war - Gazans can't have it both ways, hold ice cream in one hand and throw a granade with the other.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> I am not absolving Hamas of anything.  But journalists are threatened and restricted in many parts of the world.  Shooting one, and then possibly LYING about it and smearing his reputation to justify it from as high a level as Defense Minister is crap.  It's not just that it's a single case.  It's an important one.
Click to expand...


Excuse me if it sounds cynical, not my intention - but why is this case so uniquely important in light of what's going on?

You know what's also possible - that Hamas murdered him, and had lots of reasons for, as they began loosing the media war with the Swastikas and shouting "tear their hearts out" .
I haven't seen any proof to the contrary, and You do know that Hamas placed it's own snipers as well do You?

محمود توفيق-غزة on Twitter

There's a video going around Arabic media which claims to show a Gazan shot and a crowd cheering...but the shot sound comes from the crowd. I guess that video will be published soon once it's analyzed.


----------



## Coyote

rylah said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> It is Israel massing at the border shooting civilians. Are the Palestinians at the border shooting up the Israelis?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You’re not paying attention. *A number of the dead Islamics were members of the Islamic terrorist “military wing” of Hamas*. It is Israel defending a border from Islamic terrorists.
> 
> IDF: At least 10 of the 15 killed at Gaza border were members of terror groups
> 
> Why do you believe that islamo-rioters with Molotov cocktails and explosives are allowed an entitlement to that behavior?
> 
> How cowardly of you to flail your Pom Poms and encourage others to act upon your Jooooooo hatreds while you sit behind a keyboard.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> That is debatable at this point.  The Israeli Defense Minister made that claim about the murdered journalist - and provided zero substantiation.  I'm rather cynical about these claims.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Israel has proven more than enough and in detail with videos and photos from Hamas itself, the journalist case is being investigated.
> Gazans on the other hand have proven beyond any doubt that the aim of the riot is violence.
> 
> The insistence on making this case symbolic of the whole confrontation, is an attempt to dissolve Hamas from any responsibility and water down the extent of violence they initiated at the border.
> 
> Again it's either a peaceful festival or a declaration of war - Gazans can't have it both ways, hold ice cream in one hand and throw a granade with the other.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> I am not absolving Hamas of anything.  But journalists are threatened and restricted in many parts of the world.  Shooting one, and then possibly LYING about it and smearing his reputation to justify it from as high a level as Defense Minister is crap.  It's not just that it's a single case.  It's an important one.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Excuse me if it sounds cynical, not my intention - but why is this case so uniquely important in light of what's going on?
> 
> You know what's also possible - that Hamas murdered him, and had lot's of reasons for.
> I haven't seen any proof to the contrary, and You do know that Hamas placed it's own snipers as well do You?
> 
> محمود توفيق-غزة on Twitter
> 
> There's a video going around Arabic media which claims to show a Gazan shot and a crowd cheering...but the shot sound comes from the crowd. I guess that video will be published soon.
Click to expand...


Because I value journalists and what they do, and I to see a government actively attempt to smear an innocent person's reputation (if that indeed proves to be the case) - is wrong.  I don't hold Hamas to much of any standard - they need to be gone.  I would expect more of the Israeli government.


----------



## Hollie

Coyote said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> The intent of the blockade was to prevent a terrorist organization which had just been elected government (!!) and refused peace, recognition or to honour agreements from attacking Israel.
> 
> How do you "attempt talks" with a terror organization which has declared these things?
> 
> You seem to say "no escalation of violence" demonstrates sufficient good intent  I disagree. The cessation of ALL violence is the requisite for peace.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> The cessation of ALL violence is the requisite for peace.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> That applies to Israel also.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You obviously are oblivious to the fact that it is not Israel with a written Charter calling for the destruction of Arabs-Moslems.
> 
> Is it Isrealis who are massing on their border calling to invade Gaza’istan and rip the hearts out of Arabs-Moslems?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> It is Israel massing at the border shooting civilians. Are the Palestinians at the border shooting up the Israelis?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You’re not paying attention. *A number of the dead Islamics were members of the Islamic terrorist “military wing” of Hamas*. It is Israel defending a border from Islamic terrorists.
> 
> IDF: At least 10 of the 15 killed at Gaza border were members of terror groups
> 
> Why do you believe that islamo-rioters with Molotov cocktails and explosives are allowed an entitlement to that behavior?
> 
> How cowardly of you to flail your Pom Poms and encourage others to act upon your Jooooooo hatreds while you sit behind a keyboard.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> That is debatable at this point.  The Israeli Defense Minister made that claim about the murdered journalist - and provided zero substantiation.  I'm rather cynical about these claims.
Click to expand...


Going back to the end of March, Hamas has acknowledged a number of its military wing members were killed at the tire riots.

Hamas admits 5 of its gunmen among 16 Gazans killed in Friday’s border violence


----------



## Hollie

Coyote said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> 
> RE: Israeli forces shoot unarmed protesters from across Gaza security fence, killing at least 15
> ※→ Coyote, et al,
> 
> The Joint Egyptian-Israeli blockade started in 2007. That is a year after the Population of Gaza elected HAMAS into power.  Two years after the unilateral withdraw in 2005.
> 
> View attachment 187928​
> The indiscriminate rocket fire was on the rise in the first three years of the new century; *but began a decline, down 100 launches from a high of nearly 300 in 2004 → the year before the unilateral withdraw of 2005. * In the two years immediately prior to the tightening of the Israeli Measures to prevent, combat and eradicate the illicit manufacturing of and trafficking in firearms, their parts, and components and ammunition, owing to the harmful effects of those activities on the security of each State or Region.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ok...that's a good chart.  So rockets increased after Hamas was elected into power.  That still does not mean the blockade is NOT collective punishment* because it PUNISHES everyone - severely*.  This in particular impacts the ability of Gazans to access healthcare, including life saving healthcare, adequate food, water and electricity. Most recently, Abbas has joined with Israel in adding pressure to Gaza through withholding aid.  Given their economy is in shambles they can not export goods, leave to work, or import goods - most Gazans depend on aid.
> 
> Bitter Palestinian rivalry adds to the agony of Gaza’s vulnerable
> 
> _In Shifa hospital, Gaza, tiny premature babies, some with multiple infections, others with congenital diseases, lie packed together in incubators, struggling for life amid a tangle of tubes as lights flicker. With electricity virtually cut off, their life support is powered by a generator with a variable current.
> 
> 
> The health of several of the babies is so poor they should have been transferred out of Gaza to modern intensive care units elsewhere, but permission to leave has been refused.
> 
> 
> The decades-long agony of Gaza has moved into a new phase in which the very weakest lives of all are being sacrificed in a political power struggle played out beyond Gaza’s barrier wall.
> 
> Nowhere is the new intensified stranglehold more painful to observe than on the wards of Shifa. During the 2014 war, which killed more than 2,300 Palestinians, including about 500 children – leaving 1,000 permanently disabled – the beds were full of the injured. Today the doctors are struggling to save lives not damaged by bombs but by the impact of the blockade.
> 
> Kidney dialysis, intensive care and neonatal units are all in crisis. The Palestinian Authority in Ramallah on the West Bank has refused to pay for medicines, which are now critically depleted even for those in most need. Payments due to Israel each time patients are transferred are also being blocked, so that babies in need of critical care as well as cancer patients are refused permits to leave for treatment in the West Bank and Israel. Doctors say 10 cancer patients who have died in the past month could have been saved if they had been transferred.
> 
> 
> As emergency cases back up in Gaza’s hospitals, other crises that have built up over the 11 years of siege and conflict are being brought to light. The immediate crisis in cancer care is exacerbated by the steep rise in cancer cases across Gaza, for which medical services were ill-equipped to start with.
> 
> 
> According to Dr Khaled Thabet, head of oncology at Shifa, cancer rates in Gaza are rising steeply. He cites 90 cases per 100,000 people in 2016 compared with 65 in 2010. The rates are worryingly high given the unusually young population, with 60% of Gazans under 25. He blames the impact of three consecutive wars on Gaza, which have left poisonous elements in the soil and water, including depleted uranium. Daily use of insecticides by Israel to clear border areas is also blamed. Such is the shortage of clean water there are fears of cholera._​
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> I disagree, the INTENT of the blockade was a collective punishment of the Gazan’s for electing Hamas.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> *(COMMENT)*
> 
> What evidence is there that the Israelis are doing something other than executing actions to prevent, combat and eradicate the illicit manufacturing of and trafficking in firearms, their parts and components and ammunition, owing to the harmful effects of those activities on the security of each State or Region.
> 
> What evidence is there to suggest that Israel is doing something other than strengthening the security of their international borders, including by combating fraudulent travel documents and, to the extent attainable, by enhancing terrorist screening and passenger security procedures with a view to preventing those from entering their territory;
> 
> (_The Imperative to Combat Terrorism in all its forms and Manifestations by all means, in accordance with the Charter of the United Nations_)
> 
> _(Protocol against the Illicit Manufacturing of and Trafficking in Firearms, Their Parts and Components and Ammunition, supplementing the United Nations Convention against Transnational Organized Crime) _
> _(The United Nations General Assembly adopted the Global Counter-Terrorism Strategy.  The strategy is a unique global instrument to enhance national, regional and international efforts to counter terrorism.) _​
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Why are medical supplies in such short supply?  Why is food so restricted?  Why is clean water restricted?  Why is electricity so restricted.   None, as far as I know, are part of making arms.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> There was no escalation of violence preceding it and no attempts at talks with the new government.  It has gone on for ten years with no improvement.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> *(COMMENT)*
> 
> As you can see, there was almost a 200% increase in the two years prior to the blockade --- see above _(supra)_.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I agree, the chart was enlightening.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> How can Gaza declare independence?  When the Palestinians sought any sort of U.N. recognition Israel punished those efforts. Israel punishes Palestinians for Unesco move
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> *(COMMENT)*
> 
> Gaza is already wrapped-up with the West Bank.  They would have to disengage.
> 
> It is important to remember that under Customary Law, those that have not already accepted a different citizenship, those that have acquired a new nationality, and enjoys the protection of the country of his new nationality are no longer considered a "refugee."
> 
> In terms of "Rule 103 - Collective Punishment" - Customary and IHL considers:
> 
> •  Summary  •
> However, the prohibition of collective punishments is wider in scope because it does not only apply to criminal sanctions but also to “sanctions and harassment of any sort, administrative, by police action or otherwise”.​
> Most Respectfully,
> R
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


The Hamas leadership has priorities which don’t include such things as basic needs. Is anyone surprised that an Islamic Terrorism syndicate is incapable of managing the civil affairs of government?

Forbes Says Hamas Second-Richest Terror Group In World


----------



## rylah

Coyote said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> You’re not paying attention. *A number of the dead Islamics were members of the Islamic terrorist “military wing” of Hamas*. It is Israel defending a border from Islamic terrorists.
> 
> IDF: At least 10 of the 15 killed at Gaza border were members of terror groups
> 
> Why do you believe that islamo-rioters with Molotov cocktails and explosives are allowed an entitlement to that behavior?
> 
> How cowardly of you to flail your Pom Poms and encourage others to act upon your Jooooooo hatreds while you sit behind a keyboard.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That is debatable at this point.  The Israeli Defense Minister made that claim about the murdered journalist - and provided zero substantiation.  I'm rather cynical about these claims.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Israel has proven more than enough and in detail with videos and photos from Hamas itself, the journalist case is being investigated.
> Gazans on the other hand have proven beyond any doubt that the aim of the riot is violence.
> 
> The insistence on making this case symbolic of the whole confrontation, is an attempt to dissolve Hamas from any responsibility and water down the extent of violence they initiated at the border.
> 
> Again it's either a peaceful festival or a declaration of war - Gazans can't have it both ways, hold ice cream in one hand and throw a granade with the other.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> I am not absolving Hamas of anything.  But journalists are threatened and restricted in many parts of the world.  Shooting one, and then possibly LYING about it and smearing his reputation to justify it from as high a level as Defense Minister is crap.  It's not just that it's a single case.  It's an important one.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Excuse me if it sounds cynical, not my intention - but why is this case so uniquely important in light of what's going on?
> 
> You know what's also possible - that Hamas murdered him, and had lot's of reasons for.
> I haven't seen any proof to the contrary, and You do know that Hamas placed it's own snipers as well do You?
> 
> محمود توفيق-غزة on Twitter
> 
> There's a video going around Arabic media which claims to show a Gazan shot and a crowd cheering...but the shot sound comes from the crowd. I guess that video will be published soon.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Because I value journalists and what they do, and I to see a government actively attempt to smear an innocent person's reputation (if that indeed proves to be the case) - is wrong.  I don't hold Hamas to much of any standard - they need to be gone.  I would expect more of the Israeli government.
Click to expand...


I can understand that.

At the same time we have little information. Did You see a video of the incident itself ?


----------



## fncceo

Humanity said:


> fncceo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It would have to be free ... no one is going to pay to take it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oh you just gotta love a dumbass comedian...
> 
> I'm quite sure that your beloved Israel would happily take full ownership. After all, I'm pretty sure that's their 'final solution'... Hmm sounds familiar!
Click to expand...


You're ranting Jews are Nazis and_ I'm_ the comedian?  Thanks, Alanis.


----------



## Coyote

Hollie said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> 
> RE: Israeli forces shoot unarmed protesters from across Gaza security fence, killing at least 15
> ※→ Coyote, et al,
> 
> The Joint Egyptian-Israeli blockade started in 2007. That is a year after the Population of Gaza elected HAMAS into power.  Two years after the unilateral withdraw in 2005.
> 
> View attachment 187928​
> The indiscriminate rocket fire was on the rise in the first three years of the new century; *but began a decline, down 100 launches from a high of nearly 300 in 2004 → the year before the unilateral withdraw of 2005. * In the two years immediately prior to the tightening of the Israeli Measures to prevent, combat and eradicate the illicit manufacturing of and trafficking in firearms, their parts, and components and ammunition, owing to the harmful effects of those activities on the security of each State or Region.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ok...that's a good chart.  So rockets increased after Hamas was elected into power.  That still does not mean the blockade is NOT collective punishment* because it PUNISHES everyone - severely*.  This in particular impacts the ability of Gazans to access healthcare, including life saving healthcare, adequate food, water and electricity. Most recently, Abbas has joined with Israel in adding pressure to Gaza through withholding aid.  Given their economy is in shambles they can not export goods, leave to work, or import goods - most Gazans depend on aid.
> 
> Bitter Palestinian rivalry adds to the agony of Gaza’s vulnerable
> 
> _In Shifa hospital, Gaza, tiny premature babies, some with multiple infections, others with congenital diseases, lie packed together in incubators, struggling for life amid a tangle of tubes as lights flicker. With electricity virtually cut off, their life support is powered by a generator with a variable current.
> 
> 
> The health of several of the babies is so poor they should have been transferred out of Gaza to modern intensive care units elsewhere, but permission to leave has been refused.
> 
> 
> The decades-long agony of Gaza has moved into a new phase in which the very weakest lives of all are being sacrificed in a political power struggle played out beyond Gaza’s barrier wall.
> 
> Nowhere is the new intensified stranglehold more painful to observe than on the wards of Shifa. During the 2014 war, which killed more than 2,300 Palestinians, including about 500 children – leaving 1,000 permanently disabled – the beds were full of the injured. Today the doctors are struggling to save lives not damaged by bombs but by the impact of the blockade.
> 
> Kidney dialysis, intensive care and neonatal units are all in crisis. The Palestinian Authority in Ramallah on the West Bank has refused to pay for medicines, which are now critically depleted even for those in most need. Payments due to Israel each time patients are transferred are also being blocked, so that babies in need of critical care as well as cancer patients are refused permits to leave for treatment in the West Bank and Israel. Doctors say 10 cancer patients who have died in the past month could have been saved if they had been transferred.
> 
> 
> As emergency cases back up in Gaza’s hospitals, other crises that have built up over the 11 years of siege and conflict are being brought to light. The immediate crisis in cancer care is exacerbated by the steep rise in cancer cases across Gaza, for which medical services were ill-equipped to start with.
> 
> 
> According to Dr Khaled Thabet, head of oncology at Shifa, cancer rates in Gaza are rising steeply. He cites 90 cases per 100,000 people in 2016 compared with 65 in 2010. The rates are worryingly high given the unusually young population, with 60% of Gazans under 25. He blames the impact of three consecutive wars on Gaza, which have left poisonous elements in the soil and water, including depleted uranium. Daily use of insecticides by Israel to clear border areas is also blamed. Such is the shortage of clean water there are fears of cholera._​
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> I disagree, the INTENT of the blockade was a collective punishment of the Gazan’s for electing Hamas.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> *(COMMENT)*
> 
> What evidence is there that the Israelis are doing something other than executing actions to prevent, combat and eradicate the illicit manufacturing of and trafficking in firearms, their parts and components and ammunition, owing to the harmful effects of those activities on the security of each State or Region.
> 
> What evidence is there to suggest that Israel is doing something other than strengthening the security of their international borders, including by combating fraudulent travel documents and, to the extent attainable, by enhancing terrorist screening and passenger security procedures with a view to preventing those from entering their territory;
> 
> (_The Imperative to Combat Terrorism in all its forms and Manifestations by all means, in accordance with the Charter of the United Nations_)
> 
> _(Protocol against the Illicit Manufacturing of and Trafficking in Firearms, Their Parts and Components and Ammunition, supplementing the United Nations Convention against Transnational Organized Crime) _
> _(The United Nations General Assembly adopted the Global Counter-Terrorism Strategy.  The strategy is a unique global instrument to enhance national, regional and international efforts to counter terrorism.) _​
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Why are medical supplies in such short supply?  Why is food so restricted?  Why is clean water restricted?  Why is electricity so restricted.   None, as far as I know, are part of making arms.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> There was no escalation of violence preceding it and no attempts at talks with the new government.  It has gone on for ten years with no improvement.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> *(COMMENT)*
> 
> As you can see, there was almost a 200% increase in the two years prior to the blockade --- see above _(supra)_.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I agree, the chart was enlightening.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> How can Gaza declare independence?  When the Palestinians sought any sort of U.N. recognition Israel punished those efforts. Israel punishes Palestinians for Unesco move
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> *(COMMENT)*
> 
> Gaza is already wrapped-up with the West Bank.  They would have to disengage.
> 
> It is important to remember that under Customary Law, those that have not already accepted a different citizenship, those that have acquired a new nationality, and enjoys the protection of the country of his new nationality are no longer considered a "refugee."
> 
> In terms of "Rule 103 - Collective Punishment" - Customary and IHL considers:
> 
> •  Summary  •
> However, the prohibition of collective punishments is wider in scope because it does not only apply to criminal sanctions but also to “sanctions and harassment of any sort, administrative, by police action or otherwise”.​
> Most Respectfully,
> R
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The Hamas leadership* has priorities which don’t include such things as basic needs*. Is anyone surprised that an Islamic Terrorism syndicate is incapable of managing the civil affairs of government?
> 
> Forbes Says Hamas Second-Richest Terror Group In World
Click to expand...


I agree, that is evident in their behavior.


----------



## Coyote

rylah said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> That is debatable at this point.  The Israeli Defense Minister made that claim about the murdered journalist - and provided zero substantiation.  I'm rather cynical about these claims.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Israel has proven more than enough and in detail with videos and photos from Hamas itself, the journalist case is being investigated.
> Gazans on the other hand have proven beyond any doubt that the aim of the riot is violence.
> 
> The insistence on making this case symbolic of the whole confrontation, is an attempt to dissolve Hamas from any responsibility and water down the extent of violence they initiated at the border.
> 
> Again it's either a peaceful festival or a declaration of war - Gazans can't have it both ways, hold ice cream in one hand and throw a granade with the other.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> I am not absolving Hamas of anything.  But journalists are threatened and restricted in many parts of the world.  Shooting one, and then possibly LYING about it and smearing his reputation to justify it from as high a level as Defense Minister is crap.  It's not just that it's a single case.  It's an important one.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Excuse me if it sounds cynical, not my intention - but why is this case so uniquely important in light of what's going on?
> 
> You know what's also possible - that Hamas murdered him, and had lot's of reasons for.
> I haven't seen any proof to the contrary, and You do know that Hamas placed it's own snipers as well do You?
> 
> محمود توفيق-غزة on Twitter
> 
> There's a video going around Arabic media which claims to show a Gazan shot and a crowd cheering...but the shot sound comes from the crowd. I guess that video will be published soon.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Because I value journalists and what they do, and I to see a government actively attempt to smear an innocent person's reputation (if that indeed proves to be the case) - is wrong.  I don't hold Hamas to much of any standard - they need to be gone.  I would expect more of the Israeli government.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I can understand that.
> 
> At the same time we have little information. Did You see a video of the incident itself ?
Click to expand...


No, is there one?


----------



## rylah

Coyote said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> Israel has proven more than enough and in detail with videos and photos from Hamas itself, the journalist case is being investigated.
> Gazans on the other hand have proven beyond any doubt that the aim of the riot is violence.
> 
> The insistence on making this case symbolic of the whole confrontation, is an attempt to dissolve Hamas from any responsibility and water down the extent of violence they initiated at the border.
> 
> Again it's either a peaceful festival or a declaration of war - Gazans can't have it both ways, hold ice cream in one hand and throw a granade with the other.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I am not absolving Hamas of anything.  But journalists are threatened and restricted in many parts of the world.  Shooting one, and then possibly LYING about it and smearing his reputation to justify it from as high a level as Defense Minister is crap.  It's not just that it's a single case.  It's an important one.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Excuse me if it sounds cynical, not my intention - but why is this case so uniquely important in light of what's going on?
> 
> You know what's also possible - that Hamas murdered him, and had lot's of reasons for.
> I haven't seen any proof to the contrary, and You do know that Hamas placed it's own snipers as well do You?
> 
> محمود توفيق-غزة on Twitter
> 
> There's a video going around Arabic media which claims to show a Gazan shot and a crowd cheering...but the shot sound comes from the crowd. I guess that video will be published soon.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Because I value journalists and what they do, and I to see a government actively attempt to smear an innocent person's reputation (if that indeed proves to be the case) - is wrong.  I don't hold Hamas to much of any standard - they need to be gone.  I would expect more of the Israeli government.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I can understand that.
> 
> At the same time we have little information. Did You see a video of the incident itself ?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No, is there one?
Click to expand...


I haven't seen yet, only the one after.

Is this what You'd call a smear campaign:






September 9, 2017 The photographer (journalist) who was shot on Friday, posted a video for his agency agency "Maala photographers"/"Ain Media" on Facebook, a video of operating a drone and writes: "*Our planes are in the sky and our soldiers are on the ground ... ready for any scenario."*

Which planes and soldiers do You figure he related to?


----------



## Coyote

rylah said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> I am not absolving Hamas of anything.  But journalists are threatened and restricted in many parts of the world.  Shooting one, and then possibly LYING about it and smearing his reputation to justify it from as high a level as Defense Minister is crap.  It's not just that it's a single case.  It's an important one.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Excuse me if it sounds cynical, not my intention - but why is this case so uniquely important in light of what's going on?
> 
> You know what's also possible - that Hamas murdered him, and had lot's of reasons for.
> I haven't seen any proof to the contrary, and You do know that Hamas placed it's own snipers as well do You?
> 
> محمود توفيق-غزة on Twitter
> 
> There's a video going around Arabic media which claims to show a Gazan shot and a crowd cheering...but the shot sound comes from the crowd. I guess that video will be published soon.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Because I value journalists and what they do, and I to see a government actively attempt to smear an innocent person's reputation (if that indeed proves to be the case) - is wrong.  I don't hold Hamas to much of any standard - they need to be gone.  I would expect more of the Israeli government.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I can understand that.
> 
> At the same time we have little information. Did You see a video of the incident itself ?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No, is there one?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I haven't seen yet, only the one after.
> 
> Is this what You'd call a smear campaign:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> September 9, 2017 The photographer (journalist) who was shot on Friday, posted a video for his agency agency "Maala photographers" on Facebook, a video of operating a drone and writes,
> "*Our planes are in the sky and our soldiers are on the ground ... ready for any scenario."*
> 
> Which planes and soldiers do You figure he related to?
Click to expand...


Many photojournalists use drones now.  That was September.  Again - where is the evidence that he was using a drone that day and that he is affiliated with Hamas?


----------



## rylah

Coyote said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> Excuse me if it sounds cynical, not my intention - but why is this case so uniquely important in light of what's going on?
> 
> You know what's also possible - that Hamas murdered him, and had lot's of reasons for.
> I haven't seen any proof to the contrary, and You do know that Hamas placed it's own snipers as well do You?
> 
> محمود توفيق-غزة on Twitter
> 
> There's a video going around Arabic media which claims to show a Gazan shot and a crowd cheering...but the shot sound comes from the crowd. I guess that video will be published soon.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Because I value journalists and what they do, and I to see a government actively attempt to smear an innocent person's reputation (if that indeed proves to be the case) - is wrong.  I don't hold Hamas to much of any standard - they need to be gone.  I would expect more of the Israeli government.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I can understand that.
> 
> At the same time we have little information. Did You see a video of the incident itself ?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No, is there one?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I haven't seen yet, only the one after.
> 
> Is this what You'd call a smear campaign:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> September 9, 2017 The photographer (journalist) who was shot on Friday, posted a video for his agency agency "Maala photographers" on Facebook, a video of operating a drone and writes,
> "*Our planes are in the sky and our soldiers are on the ground ... ready for any scenario."*
> 
> Which planes and soldiers do You figure he related to?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Many photojournalists use drones now.  That was September.  Again - where is the evidence that he was using a drone that day and that he is affiliated with Hamas?
Click to expand...


Many journalist call them "planes" as a part of a military ready for action?


----------



## Coyote

rylah said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> Because I value journalists and what they do, and I to see a government actively attempt to smear an innocent person's reputation (if that indeed proves to be the case) - is wrong.  I don't hold Hamas to much of any standard - they need to be gone.  I would expect more of the Israeli government.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I can understand that.
> 
> At the same time we have little information. Did You see a video of the incident itself ?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No, is there one?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I haven't seen yet, only the one after.
> 
> Is this what You'd call a smear campaign:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> September 9, 2017 The photographer (journalist) who was shot on Friday, posted a video for his agency agency "Maala photographers" on Facebook, a video of operating a drone and writes,
> "*Our planes are in the sky and our soldiers are on the ground ... ready for any scenario."*
> 
> Which planes and soldiers do You figure he related to?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Many photojournalists use drones now.  That was September.  Again - where is the evidence that he was using a drone that day and that he is affiliated with Hamas?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Many journalist call them "planes" as a part of a military ready to action?
Click to expand...


I can see them joking around and yes - calling it a plane.  I think you need more substantial evidence then a tweet.


----------



## Coyote

A paid member of Hamas?  Hamas denies it.  Murtaja's family and coworkers deny it.  From the below I highly doubt it.

Contradicting Israel, journalists' federation says slain Palestinian photographer was arrested and beaten by Hamas
A report by the International Federation of Journalists, published by AFP, said Yaser Murtaja was detained by Hamas three years ago after he documented the demolition of a house near the border. His captors demanded to see what he had documented, and when he refused he was forced into a vehicle, the report said. He was then beaten until he required hospitalization, according to the report, which was based on an interview with the photographer.

Lieberman claimed that Murtaja had been operating a drone above Israeli troops when he was shot, *but the military had yet to release evidence of this*.


----------



## rylah

Coyote said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> I can understand that.
> 
> At the same time we have little information. Did You see a video of the incident itself ?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No, is there one?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I haven't seen yet, only the one after.
> 
> Is this what You'd call a smear campaign:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> September 9, 2017 The photographer (journalist) who was shot on Friday, posted a video for his agency agency "Maala photographers" on Facebook, a video of operating a drone and writes,
> "*Our planes are in the sky and our soldiers are on the ground ... ready for any scenario."*
> 
> Which planes and soldiers do You figure he related to?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Many photojournalists use drones now.  That was September.  Again - where is the evidence that he was using a drone that day and that he is affiliated with Hamas?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Many journalist call them "planes" as a part of a military ready to action?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I can see them joking around and yes - calling it a plane.  I think you need more substantial evidence then a tweet.
Click to expand...


Not in the context of a message about military and soldiers.
It will be very hard to convince that he meant anything else, or that Hamas didn't use the only drones available in Gaza for surveillance and military action, especially since he himself stated this to be an integral part of their army. 

If someone tweeted about an intent or participation, it would be enough to bring to court.


----------



## Coyote

rylah said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rylah said:
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> 
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> Coyote said:
> 
> 
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> rylah said:
> 
> 
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> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> No, is there one?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I haven't seen yet, only the one after.
> 
> Is this what You'd call a smear campaign:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> September 9, 2017 The photographer (journalist) who was shot on Friday, posted a video for his agency agency "Maala photographers" on Facebook, a video of operating a drone and writes,
> "*Our planes are in the sky and our soldiers are on the ground ... ready for any scenario."*
> 
> Which planes and soldiers do You figure he related to?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Many photojournalists use drones now.  That was September.  Again - where is the evidence that he was using a drone that day and that he is affiliated with Hamas?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Many journalist call them "planes" as a part of a military ready to action?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I can see them joking around and yes - calling it a plane.  I think you need more substantial evidence then a tweet.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Not in the context of a message about military and soldiers.
> It will be very hard to convince that he meant anything else, or that Hamas didn't use the only drones available in Gaza for surveillance and military action, especially since he himself stated this to be an integral part of their army.
> 
> If someone tweeted about an intent or participation, it would be enough to bring to court.
Click to expand...


The context of "planes and soldiers" could easily be metaphorical.  Thus far - no evidence has been provided to justify his murder.

Edited to add - I don't place much value in solitary tweets - they don't really mean a lot - just an utterance unless there is a pattern.


----------



## rylah

Coyote said:


> A paid member of Hamas?  Hamas denies it.  Murtaja's family and coworkers deny it.  From the below I highly doubt it.
> 
> Contradicting Israel, journalists' federation says slain Palestinian photographer was arrested and beaten by Hamas
> A report by the International Federation of Journalists, published by AFP, said Yaser Murtaja was detained by Hamas three years ago after he documented the demolition of a house near the border. His captors demanded to see what he had documented, and when he refused he was forced into a vehicle, the report said. He was then beaten until he required hospitalization, according to the report, which was based on an interview with the photographer.
> 
> Lieberman claimed that Murtaja had been operating a drone above Israeli troops when he was shot, *but the military had yet to release evidence of this*.



Since the 2nd day of confrontation, when Abu Ali documented how Hamas, Islamic Jihad and Fatah publicly post the militants' affiliation - there was a request on SM to stop exposing whom they belonged to.

I think You'll find that post in the beginning of the thread.


----------



## rylah

Coyote said:


> rylah said:
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> Coyote said:
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> rylah said:
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> Coyote said:
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> rylah said:
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> 
> 
> I haven't seen yet, only the one after.
> 
> Is this what You'd call a smear campaign:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> September 9, 2017 The photographer (journalist) who was shot on Friday, posted a video for his agency agency "Maala photographers" on Facebook, a video of operating a drone and writes,
> "*Our planes are in the sky and our soldiers are on the ground ... ready for any scenario."*
> 
> Which planes and soldiers do You figure he related to?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Many photojournalists use drones now.  That was September.  Again - where is the evidence that he was using a drone that day and that he is affiliated with Hamas?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Many journalist call them "planes" as a part of a military ready to action?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I can see them joking around and yes - calling it a plane.  I think you need more substantial evidence then a tweet.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Not in the context of a message about military and soldiers.
> It will be very hard to convince that he meant anything else, or that Hamas didn't use the only drones available in Gaza for surveillance and military action, especially since he himself stated this to be an integral part of their army.
> 
> If someone tweeted about an intent or participation, it would be enough to bring to court.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The context of "planes and soldiers" could easily be metaphorical.  Thus far - no evidence has been provided to justify his murder.
> 
> Edited to add - I don't place much value in solitary tweets - they don't really mean a lot - just an utterance unless there is a pattern.
Click to expand...


Metaphorical? Then who are the soldiers, kids with water guns?
What is the possible scenario and context when You talk about soldiers and planes?

I really don't see two meanings.


----------



## Coyote

rylah said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> Many photojournalists use drones now.  That was September.  Again - where is the evidence that he was using a drone that day and that he is affiliated with Hamas?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Many journalist call them "planes" as a part of a military ready to action?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I can see them joking around and yes - calling it a plane.  I think you need more substantial evidence then a tweet.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Not in the context of a message about military and soldiers.
> It will be very hard to convince that he meant anything else, or that Hamas didn't use the only drones available in Gaza for surveillance and military action, especially since he himself stated this to be an integral part of their army.
> 
> If someone tweeted about an intent or participation, it would be enough to bring to court.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The context of "planes and soldiers" could easily be metaphorical.  Thus far - no evidence has been provided to justify his murder.
> 
> Edited to add - I don't place much value in solitary tweets - they don't really mean a lot - just an utterance unless there is a pattern.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Metaphorical? Then who are the soldiers, kids with water guns?
> What is the possible scenario and context when You talk about soldiers and planes?
> 
> I really don't see two meanings.
Click to expand...

I could be talking about "drones" (planes) and "soldiers" (journalists doing their job) in a non-literal way.


----------



## Coyote

rylah said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> A paid member of Hamas?  Hamas denies it.  Murtaja's family and coworkers deny it.  From the below I highly doubt it.
> 
> Contradicting Israel, journalists' federation says slain Palestinian photographer was arrested and beaten by Hamas
> A report by the International Federation of Journalists, published by AFP, said Yaser Murtaja was detained by Hamas three years ago after he documented the demolition of a house near the border. His captors demanded to see what he had documented, and when he refused he was forced into a vehicle, the report said. He was then beaten until he required hospitalization, according to the report, which was based on an interview with the photographer.
> 
> Lieberman claimed that Murtaja had been operating a drone above Israeli troops when he was shot, *but the military had yet to release evidence of this*.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Since the 2nd day of confrontation, when Abu Ali documented how Hamas, Islamic Jihad and Fatah publicly post the militants' affiliation - there was a request on SM to stop exposing whom they belonged to.
> 
> I think You'll find that post in the beginning of the thread.
Click to expand...


I found it - but again, not sure how relevent it is to Murtaja.  He was also vetted by they US government for a grant.  I'm quite sure they would have worked with Israel on that.


----------



## rylah

Coyote said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> Many journalist call them "planes" as a part of a military ready to action?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I can see them joking around and yes - calling it a plane.  I think you need more substantial evidence then a tweet.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Not in the context of a message about military and soldiers.
> It will be very hard to convince that he meant anything else, or that Hamas didn't use the only drones available in Gaza for surveillance and military action, especially since he himself stated this to be an integral part of their army.
> 
> If someone tweeted about an intent or participation, it would be enough to bring to court.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The context of "planes and soldiers" could easily be metaphorical.  Thus far - no evidence has been provided to justify his murder.
> 
> Edited to add - I don't place much value in solitary tweets - they don't really mean a lot - just an utterance unless there is a pattern.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Metaphorical? Then who are the soldiers, kids with water guns?
> What is the possible scenario and context when You talk about soldiers and planes?
> 
> I really don't see two meanings.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I could be talking about "drones" (planes) and "soldiers" (journalists doing their job) in a non-literal way.
Click to expand...


Yes you're right he could.


----------



## P F Tinmore

Coyote said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> 
> RE: Israeli forces shoot unarmed protesters from across Gaza security fence, killing at least 15
> ※→ Coyote, et al,
> 
> The Joint Egyptian-Israeli blockade started in 2007. That is a year after the Population of Gaza elected HAMAS into power.  Two years after the unilateral withdraw in 2005.
> 
> View attachment 187928​
> The indiscriminate rocket fire was on the rise in the first three years of the new century; *but began a decline, down 100 launches from a high of nearly 300 in 2004 → the year before the unilateral withdraw of 2005. * In the two years immediately prior to the tightening of the Israeli Measures to prevent, combat and eradicate the illicit manufacturing of and trafficking in firearms, their parts, and components and ammunition, owing to the harmful effects of those activities on the security of each State or Region.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ok...that's a good chart.  So rockets increased after Hamas was elected into power.  That still does not mean the blockade is NOT collective punishment* because it PUNISHES everyone - severely*.  This in particular impacts the ability of Gazans to access healthcare, including life saving healthcare, adequate food, water and electricity. Most recently, Abbas has joined with Israel in adding pressure to Gaza through withholding aid.  Given their economy is in shambles they can not export goods, leave to work, or import goods - most Gazans depend on aid.
> 
> Bitter Palestinian rivalry adds to the agony of Gaza’s vulnerable
> 
> _In Shifa hospital, Gaza, tiny premature babies, some with multiple infections, others with congenital diseases, lie packed together in incubators, struggling for life amid a tangle of tubes as lights flicker. With electricity virtually cut off, their life support is powered by a generator with a variable current.
> 
> 
> The health of several of the babies is so poor they should have been transferred out of Gaza to modern intensive care units elsewhere, but permission to leave has been refused.
> 
> 
> The decades-long agony of Gaza has moved into a new phase in which the very weakest lives of all are being sacrificed in a political power struggle played out beyond Gaza’s barrier wall.
> 
> Nowhere is the new intensified stranglehold more painful to observe than on the wards of Shifa. During the 2014 war, which killed more than 2,300 Palestinians, including about 500 children – leaving 1,000 permanently disabled – the beds were full of the injured. Today the doctors are struggling to save lives not damaged by bombs but by the impact of the blockade.
> 
> Kidney dialysis, intensive care and neonatal units are all in crisis. The Palestinian Authority in Ramallah on the West Bank has refused to pay for medicines, which are now critically depleted even for those in most need. Payments due to Israel each time patients are transferred are also being blocked, so that babies in need of critical care as well as cancer patients are refused permits to leave for treatment in the West Bank and Israel. Doctors say 10 cancer patients who have died in the past month could have been saved if they had been transferred.
> 
> 
> As emergency cases back up in Gaza’s hospitals, other crises that have built up over the 11 years of siege and conflict are being brought to light. The immediate crisis in cancer care is exacerbated by the steep rise in cancer cases across Gaza, for which medical services were ill-equipped to start with.
> 
> 
> According to Dr Khaled Thabet, head of oncology at Shifa, cancer rates in Gaza are rising steeply. He cites 90 cases per 100,000 people in 2016 compared with 65 in 2010. The rates are worryingly high given the unusually young population, with 60% of Gazans under 25. He blames the impact of three consecutive wars on Gaza, which have left poisonous elements in the soil and water, including depleted uranium. Daily use of insecticides by Israel to clear border areas is also blamed. Such is the shortage of clean water there are fears of cholera._​
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> I disagree, the INTENT of the blockade was a collective punishment of the Gazan’s for electing Hamas.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> *(COMMENT)*
> 
> What evidence is there that the Israelis are doing something other than executing actions to prevent, combat and eradicate the illicit manufacturing of and trafficking in firearms, their parts and components and ammunition, owing to the harmful effects of those activities on the security of each State or Region.
> 
> What evidence is there to suggest that Israel is doing something other than strengthening the security of their international borders, including by combating fraudulent travel documents and, to the extent attainable, by enhancing terrorist screening and passenger security procedures with a view to preventing those from entering their territory;
> 
> (_The Imperative to Combat Terrorism in all its forms and Manifestations by all means, in accordance with the Charter of the United Nations_)
> 
> _(Protocol against the Illicit Manufacturing of and Trafficking in Firearms, Their Parts and Components and Ammunition, supplementing the United Nations Convention against Transnational Organized Crime) _
> _(The United Nations General Assembly adopted the Global Counter-Terrorism Strategy.  The strategy is a unique global instrument to enhance national, regional and international efforts to counter terrorism.) _​
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Why are medical supplies in such short supply?  Why is food so restricted?  Why is clean water restricted?  Why is electricity so restricted.   None, as far as I know, are part of making arms.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> There was no escalation of violence preceding it and no attempts at talks with the new government.  It has gone on for ten years with no improvement.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> *(COMMENT)*
> 
> As you can see, there was almost a 200% increase in the two years prior to the blockade --- see above _(supra)_.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I agree, the chart was enlightening.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> How can Gaza declare independence?  When the Palestinians sought any sort of U.N. recognition Israel punished those efforts. Israel punishes Palestinians for Unesco move
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> *(COMMENT)*
> 
> Gaza is already wrapped-up with the West Bank.  They would have to disengage.
> 
> It is important to remember that under Customary Law, those that have not already accepted a different citizenship, those that have acquired a new nationality, and enjoys the protection of the country of his new nationality are no longer considered a "refugee."
> 
> In terms of "Rule 103 - Collective Punishment" - Customary and IHL considers:
> 
> •  Summary  •
> However, the prohibition of collective punishments is wider in scope because it does not only apply to criminal sanctions but also to “sanctions and harassment of any sort, administrative, by police action or otherwise”.​
> Most Respectfully,
> R
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...

The first minute and 38 seconds says it all. This was on March 14th, 2003 so what we are seeing now is long time standard practice.


----------



## rylah

Coyote said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> A paid member of Hamas?  Hamas denies it.  Murtaja's family and coworkers deny it.  From the below I highly doubt it.
> 
> Contradicting Israel, journalists' federation says slain Palestinian photographer was arrested and beaten by Hamas
> A report by the International Federation of Journalists, published by AFP, said Yaser Murtaja was detained by Hamas three years ago after he documented the demolition of a house near the border. His captors demanded to see what he had documented, and when he refused he was forced into a vehicle, the report said. He was then beaten until he required hospitalization, according to the report, which was based on an interview with the photographer.
> 
> Lieberman claimed that Murtaja had been operating a drone above Israeli troops when he was shot, *but the military had yet to release evidence of this*.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Since the 2nd day of confrontation, when Abu Ali documented how Hamas, Islamic Jihad and Fatah publicly post the militants' affiliation - there was a request on SM to stop exposing whom they belonged to.
> 
> I think You'll find that post in the beginning of the thread.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I found it - but again, not sure how relevent it is to Murtaja.  He was also vetted by they US government for a grant.  I'm quite sure they would have worked with Israel on that.
Click to expand...


Well, the US also gave a visa to Rasmea Odeh.


----------



## P F Tinmore

Hollie said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> That applies to Israel also.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You obviously are oblivious to the fact that it is not Israel with a written Charter calling for the destruction of Arabs-Moslems.
> 
> Is it Isrealis who are massing on their border calling to invade Gaza’istan and rip the hearts out of Arabs-Moslems?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> It is Israel massing at the border shooting civilians. Are the Palestinians at the border shooting up the Israelis?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You’re not paying attention. *A number of the dead Islamics were members of the Islamic terrorist “military wing” of Hamas*. It is Israel defending a border from Islamic terrorists.
> 
> IDF: At least 10 of the 15 killed at Gaza border were members of terror groups
> 
> Why do you believe that islamo-rioters with Molotov cocktails and explosives are allowed an entitlement to that behavior?
> 
> How cowardly of you to flail your Pom Poms and encourage others to act upon your Jooooooo hatreds while you sit behind a keyboard.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> That is debatable at this point.  The Israeli Defense Minister made that claim about the murdered journalist - and provided zero substantiation.  I'm rather cynical about these claims.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Going back to the end of March, Hamas has acknowledged a number of its military wing members were killed at the tire riots.
> 
> Hamas admits 5 of its gunmen among 16 Gazans killed in Friday’s border violence
Click to expand...

Good excuse, but they were unarmed.


----------



## rylah

P F Tinmore said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> You obviously are oblivious to the fact that it is not Israel with a written Charter calling for the destruction of Arabs-Moslems.
> 
> Is it Isrealis who are massing on their border calling to invade Gaza’istan and rip the hearts out of Arabs-Moslems?
> 
> 
> 
> It is Israel massing at the border shooting civilians. Are the Palestinians at the border shooting up the Israelis?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You’re not paying attention. *A number of the dead Islamics were members of the Islamic terrorist “military wing” of Hamas*. It is Israel defending a border from Islamic terrorists.
> 
> IDF: At least 10 of the 15 killed at Gaza border were members of terror groups
> 
> Why do you believe that islamo-rioters with Molotov cocktails and explosives are allowed an entitlement to that behavior?
> 
> How cowardly of you to flail your Pom Poms and encourage others to act upon your Jooooooo hatreds while you sit behind a keyboard.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> That is debatable at this point.  The Israeli Defense Minister made that claim about the murdered journalist - and provided zero substantiation.  I'm rather cynical about these claims.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Going back to the end of March, Hamas has acknowledged a number of its military wing members were killed at the tire riots.
> 
> Hamas admits 5 of its gunmen among 16 Gazans killed in Friday’s border violence
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Good excuse, but they were unarmed.
Click to expand...


Hamas militants don't have to be armed to have a wedding ceremony.
However the ones with the rifles at night, grenades, molotovs and IED's were.


----------



## Coyote

rylah said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> A paid member of Hamas?  Hamas denies it.  Murtaja's family and coworkers deny it.  From the below I highly doubt it.
> 
> Contradicting Israel, journalists' federation says slain Palestinian photographer was arrested and beaten by Hamas
> A report by the International Federation of Journalists, published by AFP, said Yaser Murtaja was detained by Hamas three years ago after he documented the demolition of a house near the border. His captors demanded to see what he had documented, and when he refused he was forced into a vehicle, the report said. He was then beaten until he required hospitalization, according to the report, which was based on an interview with the photographer.
> 
> Lieberman claimed that Murtaja had been operating a drone above Israeli troops when he was shot, *but the military had yet to release evidence of this*.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Since the 2nd day of confrontation, when Abu Ali documented how Hamas, Islamic Jihad and Fatah publicly post the militants' affiliation - there was a request on SM to stop exposing whom they belonged to.
> 
> I think You'll find that post in the beginning of the thread.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I found it - but again, not sure how relevent it is to Murtaja.  He was also vetted by they US government for a grant.  I'm quite sure they would have worked with Israel on that.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Well, the US also gave a visa to Rasmea Odeh.
Click to expand...


Not exactly the same thing.


----------



## rylah

Coyote said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> A paid member of Hamas?  Hamas denies it.  Murtaja's family and coworkers deny it.  From the below I highly doubt it.
> 
> Contradicting Israel, journalists' federation says slain Palestinian photographer was arrested and beaten by Hamas
> A report by the International Federation of Journalists, published by AFP, said Yaser Murtaja was detained by Hamas three years ago after he documented the demolition of a house near the border. His captors demanded to see what he had documented, and when he refused he was forced into a vehicle, the report said. He was then beaten until he required hospitalization, according to the report, which was based on an interview with the photographer.
> 
> Lieberman claimed that Murtaja had been operating a drone above Israeli troops when he was shot, *but the military had yet to release evidence of this*.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Since the 2nd day of confrontation, when Abu Ali documented how Hamas, Islamic Jihad and Fatah publicly post the militants' affiliation - there was a request on SM to stop exposing whom they belonged to.
> 
> I think You'll find that post in the beginning of the thread.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I found it - but again, not sure how relevent it is to Murtaja.  He was also vetted by they US government for a grant.  I'm quite sure they would have worked with Israel on that.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Well, the US also gave a visa to Rasmea Odeh.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Not exactly the same thing.
Click to expand...


Actually it is in many ways, yesterday for example a Dublin mayor entered Israel, in spite of being formally rejected entrance, because of a mere mistake in the name on the document.

So again this is not an indication.


----------



## rylah

Coyote said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> Many journalist call them "planes" as a part of a military ready to action?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I can see them joking around and yes - calling it a plane.  I think you need more substantial evidence then a tweet.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Not in the context of a message about military and soldiers.
> It will be very hard to convince that he meant anything else, or that Hamas didn't use the only drones available in Gaza for surveillance and military action, especially since he himself stated this to be an integral part of their army.
> 
> If someone tweeted about an intent or participation, it would be enough to bring to court.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The context of "planes and soldiers" could easily be metaphorical.  Thus far - no evidence has been provided to justify his murder.
> 
> Edited to add - I don't place much value in solitary tweets - they don't really mean a lot - just an utterance unless there is a pattern.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Metaphorical? Then who are the soldiers, kids with water guns?
> What is the possible scenario and context when You talk about soldiers and planes?
> 
> I really don't see two meanings.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I could be talking about "drones" (planes) and "soldiers" (journalists doing their job) in a non-literal way.
Click to expand...


On a second thought, I just wanna add -

journalist who work in conflict areas know exactly the difference between soldiers and journalists, and how the two dangerously almost become the same in many of the cases he sees in action when, militants dress like journalists.
There's also a separate job description called *"military journalist".*..
Civilian Journalists tend to be precise about the importance of separating themselves from any military - calling oneself a soldier directly puts one in danger, and seems counterintuitive and counterproductive to the whole job aim .

People who's  credibility and work depend wholly on the ability to reach and survive inconflict situations  - don't go jeopardizing their job, international status  and security by calling themselves soldiers/militants to the wide world...not in English at least.


----------



## rylah

rylah said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> I can see them joking around and yes - calling it a plane.  I think you need more substantial evidence then a tweet.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Not in the context of a message about military and soldiers.
> It will be very hard to convince that he meant anything else, or that Hamas didn't use the only drones available in Gaza for surveillance and military action, especially since he himself stated this to be an integral part of their army.
> 
> If someone tweeted about an intent or participation, it would be enough to bring to court.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The context of "planes and soldiers" could easily be metaphorical.  Thus far - no evidence has been provided to justify his murder.
> 
> Edited to add - I don't place much value in solitary tweets - they don't really mean a lot - just an utterance unless there is a pattern.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Metaphorical? Then who are the soldiers, kids with water guns?
> What is the possible scenario and context when You talk about soldiers and planes?
> 
> I really don't see two meanings.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I could be talking about "drones" (planes) and "soldiers" (journalists doing their job) in a non-literal way.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> On a second thought, I just wanna add -
> 
> journalist who work in conflict areas know exactly the difference between soldiers and journalists, and how the two dangerously almost become the same in many of the cases he sees in action when, militants dress like journalists.
> There's also a separate job description called *"military journalist".*..
> Civilian Journalists tend to be precise about the importance of separating themselves from any military - calling oneself a soldier directly puts one in danger, and seems counterintuitive and counterproductive to the whole job aim .
> 
> People who's  credibility and work depend wholly on the ability to reach and survive inconflict situations  - don't go jeopardizing their job, international status  and security by calling themselves soldiers/militants to the wide world...not in English at least.
Click to expand...


To me it seems he either was shot by mistake as a result of a miss, poor visability.
Or Hamas murdered him for propaganda purposes once they saw that they begin loosing the media war with their Swastika flag being spread wildly on the net, the  "reap the hearts of Israelis away" speech, and the growing support for Israel in the Arab social media since the beginning of provocations.


----------



## Hollie

P F Tinmore said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> You obviously are oblivious to the fact that it is not Israel with a written Charter calling for the destruction of Arabs-Moslems.
> 
> Is it Isrealis who are massing on their border calling to invade Gaza’istan and rip the hearts out of Arabs-Moslems?
> 
> 
> 
> It is Israel massing at the border shooting civilians. Are the Palestinians at the border shooting up the Israelis?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You’re not paying attention. *A number of the dead Islamics were members of the Islamic terrorist “military wing” of Hamas*. It is Israel defending a border from Islamic terrorists.
> 
> IDF: At least 10 of the 15 killed at Gaza border were members of terror groups
> 
> Why do you believe that islamo-rioters with Molotov cocktails and explosives are allowed an entitlement to that behavior?
> 
> How cowardly of you to flail your Pom Poms and encourage others to act upon your Jooooooo hatreds while you sit behind a keyboard.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> That is debatable at this point.  The Israeli Defense Minister made that claim about the murdered journalist - and provided zero substantiation.  I'm rather cynical about these claims.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Going back to the end of March, Hamas has acknowledged a number of its military wing members were killed at the tire riots.
> 
> Hamas admits 5 of its gunmen among 16 Gazans killed in Friday’s border violence
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Good excuse, but they were unarmed.
Click to expand...


Pointless blather. You don’t know that.


----------



## Coyote

rylah said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> Not in the context of a message about military and soldiers.
> It will be very hard to convince that he meant anything else, or that Hamas didn't use the only drones available in Gaza for surveillance and military action, especially since he himself stated this to be an integral part of their army.
> 
> If someone tweeted about an intent or participation, it would be enough to bring to court.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The context of "planes and soldiers" could easily be metaphorical.  Thus far - no evidence has been provided to justify his murder.
> 
> Edited to add - I don't place much value in solitary tweets - they don't really mean a lot - just an utterance unless there is a pattern.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Metaphorical? Then who are the soldiers, kids with water guns?
> What is the possible scenario and context when You talk about soldiers and planes?
> 
> I really don't see two meanings.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I could be talking about "drones" (planes) and "soldiers" (journalists doing their job) in a non-literal way.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> On a second thought, I just wanna add -
> 
> journalist who work in conflict areas know exactly the difference between soldiers and journalists, and how the two dangerously almost become the same in many of the cases he sees in action when, militants dress like journalists.
> There's also a separate job description called *"military journalist".*..
> Civilian Journalists tend to be precise about the importance of separating themselves from any military - calling oneself a soldier directly puts one in danger, and seems counterintuitive and counterproductive to the whole job aim .
> 
> People who's  credibility and work depend wholly on the ability to reach and survive inconflict situations  - don't go jeopardizing their job, international status  and security by calling themselves soldiers/militants to the wide world...not in English at least.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> *To me it seems he either was shot by mistake as a result of a miss, poor visability.*
> Or Hamas murdered him for propaganda purposes once they saw that they begin loosing the media war with their Swastika flag being spread wildly on the net, the  "reap the hearts of Israelis away" speech, and the growing support for Israel in the Arab social media since the beginning of provocations.
Click to expand...


I think that is the most likely.  And if so - the attempt to smear his reputation doubly disgusting.  I don't see Hamas shooting him.  Israel has not denied that they shot him.


----------



## rylah

Coyote said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> The context of "planes and soldiers" could easily be metaphorical.  Thus far - no evidence has been provided to justify his murder.
> 
> Edited to add - I don't place much value in solitary tweets - they don't really mean a lot - just an utterance unless there is a pattern.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Metaphorical? Then who are the soldiers, kids with water guns?
> What is the possible scenario and context when You talk about soldiers and planes?
> 
> I really don't see two meanings.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I could be talking about "drones" (planes) and "soldiers" (journalists doing their job) in a non-literal way.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> On a second thought, I just wanna add -
> 
> journalist who work in conflict areas know exactly the difference between soldiers and journalists, and how the two dangerously almost become the same in many of the cases he sees in action when, militants dress like journalists.
> There's also a separate job description called *"military journalist".*..
> Civilian Journalists tend to be precise about the importance of separating themselves from any military - calling oneself a soldier directly puts one in danger, and seems counterintuitive and counterproductive to the whole job aim .
> 
> People who's  credibility and work depend wholly on the ability to reach and survive inconflict situations  - don't go jeopardizing their job, international status  and security by calling themselves soldiers/militants to the wide world...not in English at least.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> *To me it seems he either was shot by mistake as a result of a miss, poor visability.*
> Or Hamas murdered him for propaganda purposes once they saw that they begin loosing the media war with their Swastika flag being spread wildly on the net, the  "reap the hearts of Israelis away" speech, and the growing support for Israel in the Arab social media since the beginning of provocations.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I think that is the most likely.  And if so - the attempt to smear his reputation doubly disgusting.  I don't see Hamas shooting him.  Israel has not denied that they shot him.
Click to expand...



Please don't take my response as that, not my intention at least.
Merely voice my observations on the little info that we have on the case.
Appreciate the opportunity to have a healthy balanced exchange with You.

Edit: To the best of my knowledge it's nor denied neither confirmed - investigated.


----------



## Coyote

rylah said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> Metaphorical? Then who are the soldiers, kids with water guns?
> What is the possible scenario and context when You talk about soldiers and planes?
> 
> I really don't see two meanings.
> 
> 
> 
> I could be talking about "drones" (planes) and "soldiers" (journalists doing their job) in a non-literal way.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> On a second thought, I just wanna add -
> 
> journalist who work in conflict areas know exactly the difference between soldiers and journalists, and how the two dangerously almost become the same in many of the cases he sees in action when, militants dress like journalists.
> There's also a separate job description called *"military journalist".*..
> Civilian Journalists tend to be precise about the importance of separating themselves from any military - calling oneself a soldier directly puts one in danger, and seems counterintuitive and counterproductive to the whole job aim .
> 
> People who's  credibility and work depend wholly on the ability to reach and survive inconflict situations  - don't go jeopardizing their job, international status  and security by calling themselves soldiers/militants to the wide world...not in English at least.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> *To me it seems he either was shot by mistake as a result of a miss, poor visability.*
> Or Hamas murdered him for propaganda purposes once they saw that they begin loosing the media war with their Swastika flag being spread wildly on the net, the  "reap the hearts of Israelis away" speech, and the growing support for Israel in the Arab social media since the beginning of provocations.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I think that is the most likely.  And if so - the attempt to smear his reputation doubly disgusting.  I don't see Hamas shooting him.  Israel has not denied that they shot him.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Please don't take my response as that, not my intention at least.
> Merely voice my observations on the little info that we have on the case.
> 
> Appreciate the opportunity to have a healthy balanced exchange with You.
Click to expand...


I've enjoyed the thought provoking conversation - so refreshing from the norm!


----------



## Shusha

Coyote said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Humanity said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> The entire point of Israel's defense of its border is to defend the border. *It's not to control the territory governed by another elected entity.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> WHAT?
> 
> Then end the blockade! That IS "*control of the territory governed by another elected entity*"!
> 
> Your posts are so contradictory, you are so desperate to defend the actions of Israel you don't really know what you are saying anymore!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> There is nothing the slightest bit contradictory about my statements. My statements are so consistent I am repeating myself over and over again.
> 
> Declare recognition of Israel.
> 
> Stop attacking Israel. No rockets. No suicide attacks. No stabbings. No threatening to rip Israeli hearts out.
> 
> Declare an end-of-conflict with Israel with no territorial dispute.
> 
> Sign a peace treaty.
> 
> Declare independence.
> 
> 
> This isn't that hard, you guys.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> What does "with no territorial dispute" mean?
Click to expand...


The border between Gaza and Israel will remain the same. Neither side asks for more territory from the other.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot

P F Tinmore said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> 
> RE: Israeli forces shoot unarmed protesters from across Gaza security fence, killing at least 15
> ※→ Coyote, et al,
> 
> The Joint Egyptian-Israeli blockade started in 2007. That is a year after the Population of Gaza elected HAMAS into power.  Two years after the unilateral withdraw in 2005.
> 
> View attachment 187928​
> The indiscriminate rocket fire was on the rise in the first three years of the new century; *but began a decline, down 100 launches from a high of nearly 300 in 2004 → the year before the unilateral withdraw of 2005. * In the two years immediately prior to the tightening of the Israeli Measures to prevent, combat and eradicate the illicit manufacturing of and trafficking in firearms, their parts, and components and ammunition, owing to the harmful effects of those activities on the security of each State or Region.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ok...that's a good chart.  So rockets increased after Hamas was elected into power.  That still does not mean the blockade is NOT collective punishment* because it PUNISHES everyone - severely*.  This in particular impacts the ability of Gazans to access healthcare, including life saving healthcare, adequate food, water and electricity. Most recently, Abbas has joined with Israel in adding pressure to Gaza through withholding aid.  Given their economy is in shambles they can not export goods, leave to work, or import goods - most Gazans depend on aid.
> 
> Bitter Palestinian rivalry adds to the agony of Gaza’s vulnerable
> 
> _In Shifa hospital, Gaza, tiny premature babies, some with multiple infections, others with congenital diseases, lie packed together in incubators, struggling for life amid a tangle of tubes as lights flicker. With electricity virtually cut off, their life support is powered by a generator with a variable current.
> 
> 
> The health of several of the babies is so poor they should have been transferred out of Gaza to modern intensive care units elsewhere, but permission to leave has been refused.
> 
> 
> The decades-long agony of Gaza has moved into a new phase in which the very weakest lives of all are being sacrificed in a political power struggle played out beyond Gaza’s barrier wall.
> 
> Nowhere is the new intensified stranglehold more painful to observe than on the wards of Shifa. During the 2014 war, which killed more than 2,300 Palestinians, including about 500 children – leaving 1,000 permanently disabled – the beds were full of the injured. Today the doctors are struggling to save lives not damaged by bombs but by the impact of the blockade.
> 
> Kidney dialysis, intensive care and neonatal units are all in crisis. The Palestinian Authority in Ramallah on the West Bank has refused to pay for medicines, which are now critically depleted even for those in most need. Payments due to Israel each time patients are transferred are also being blocked, so that babies in need of critical care as well as cancer patients are refused permits to leave for treatment in the West Bank and Israel. Doctors say 10 cancer patients who have died in the past month could have been saved if they had been transferred.
> 
> 
> As emergency cases back up in Gaza’s hospitals, other crises that have built up over the 11 years of siege and conflict are being brought to light. The immediate crisis in cancer care is exacerbated by the steep rise in cancer cases across Gaza, for which medical services were ill-equipped to start with.
> 
> 
> According to Dr Khaled Thabet, head of oncology at Shifa, cancer rates in Gaza are rising steeply. He cites 90 cases per 100,000 people in 2016 compared with 65 in 2010. The rates are worryingly high given the unusually young population, with 60% of Gazans under 25. He blames the impact of three consecutive wars on Gaza, which have left poisonous elements in the soil and water, including depleted uranium. Daily use of insecticides by Israel to clear border areas is also blamed. Such is the shortage of clean water there are fears of cholera._​
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> I disagree, the INTENT of the blockade was a collective punishment of the Gazan’s for electing Hamas.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> *(COMMENT)*
> 
> What evidence is there that the Israelis are doing something other than executing actions to prevent, combat and eradicate the illicit manufacturing of and trafficking in firearms, their parts and components and ammunition, owing to the harmful effects of those activities on the security of each State or Region.
> 
> What evidence is there to suggest that Israel is doing something other than strengthening the security of their international borders, including by combating fraudulent travel documents and, to the extent attainable, by enhancing terrorist screening and passenger security procedures with a view to preventing those from entering their territory;
> 
> (_The Imperative to Combat Terrorism in all its forms and Manifestations by all means, in accordance with the Charter of the United Nations_)
> 
> _(Protocol against the Illicit Manufacturing of and Trafficking in Firearms, Their Parts and Components and Ammunition, supplementing the United Nations Convention against Transnational Organized Crime) _
> _(The United Nations General Assembly adopted the Global Counter-Terrorism Strategy.  The strategy is a unique global instrument to enhance national, regional and international efforts to counter terrorism.) _​
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Why are medical supplies in such short supply?  Why is food so restricted?  Why is clean water restricted?  Why is electricity so restricted.   None, as far as I know, are part of making arms.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> There was no escalation of violence preceding it and no attempts at talks with the new government.  It has gone on for ten years with no improvement.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> *(COMMENT)*
> 
> As you can see, there was almost a 200% increase in the two years prior to the blockade --- see above _(supra)_.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I agree, the chart was enlightening.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> How can Gaza declare independence?  When the Palestinians sought any sort of U.N. recognition Israel punished those efforts. Israel punishes Palestinians for Unesco move
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> *(COMMENT)*
> 
> Gaza is already wrapped-up with the West Bank.  They would have to disengage.
> 
> It is important to remember that under Customary Law, those that have not already accepted a different citizenship, those that have acquired a new nationality, and enjoys the protection of the country of his new nationality are no longer considered a "refugee."
> 
> In terms of "Rule 103 - Collective Punishment" - Customary and IHL considers:
> 
> •  Summary  •
> However, the prohibition of collective punishments is wider in scope because it does not only apply to criminal sanctions but also to “sanctions and harassment of any sort, administrative, by police action or otherwise”.​
> Most Respectfully,
> R
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The first minute and 38 seconds says it all. This was on March 14th, 2003 so what we are seeing now is long time standard practice.
Click to expand...


Whiney morons from the shallow end of the gene pool walking in front of bulldozers.


----------



## RoccoR

RE: Israeli forces shoot unarmed protesters from across Gaza security fence, killing at least 15
※→ Coyote, et al,




Coyote said:


> Ok...that's a good chart.  So rockets increased after Hamas was elected into power.  That still does not mean the blockade is NOT collective punishment* because it PUNISHES everyone - severely*.  This in particular impacts the ability of Gazans to access healthcare, including life-saving healthcare, adequate food, water, and electricity. Most recently, Abbas has joined with Israel in adding pressure to Gaza through withholding aid.  Given their economy is in shambles they can not export goods, leave to work, or import goods - most Gazans depend on aid.


*(COMMENT)*

Let's sync-up some serious points.  The Hostile Arab Palestinians (HoAP) cannot function in isolation.  The local people must have knowledge of the existence of hostile activity.  The HoAP cannot exist in cover and concealment without the active aid of the Gazan.  And the passive assistance was in the form of remaining silent and allowing hostile action to take place.

•  The Islamic Resistance Movement (HAMAS) is a known terrorist organization and has been so designated since 1997.

•  The population of Gaza voted overwhelmingly for the HAMAS.

•  The Gazan people supported the uses of unlawful violence and intimidation, 2005 Elections, in the pursuit of political aims through the systematic use of terror especially, as a means of coercion.

•  The Gazan people provided popular assistance in the necessities for organizing, instigating, facilitating, participating in, financing, encouraging or tolerating terrorist activities and to take appropriate practical measures to ensure that our respective territories are not used for terrorist installations or training camps, or for the preparation or organization of terrorist acts intended to be committed against other States or their citizens.​
Does anything sound familiar here?  When you have a vast majority of the population elect an HoAP leadership, and for years, march around in masks and weapons, shouting war chants against Israel, at what point does that HoAP and general population become a State Sponsor of Terrorism?

We all see a different threshold.  We all believe something different in terms of justification one way or the other.  But at the end of the date, the General Population must understand that "no counter-terrorism policy can be effective without addressing conditions that are conducive to the spread of terrorism."  But still  - Nothing can justify terrorism — ever.  No grievance, No goal, No cause can excuse thirty years of violence the HoAP pursued.




Coyote said:


> Why are medical supplies in such short supply?  Why is food so restricted?  Why is clean water restricted?  Why is electricity so restricted.   None, as far as I know, are part of making arms.


*(COMMENT)*

There is a thriving black market and a corrupt management system for construction materials, so much so that some donors stay on site to protect the integrity of the project from diversion.

If someone asks me about the Gaza reconstruction process,
I usually answer: it is a big zero.
_Mamadou Sow, 
Head of the International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC) in Gaza, 
during an interview with the Safa Press Agency, 13 July 2015._​
There is no question that certain parts of the Gaza Strip were severely damaged or destroyed; ostensibly by the Israelis.  But that cannot be laid entirely at the feet of the Israelis.  Just as we have seen in the last few weeks, the HoAP have a much different approach to the organization of public demonstrations and the exposure of the Gazan citizenry to risk and danger.  They will sacrifice lives for any number of reasons. 

Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## Billo_Really

Toddsterpatriot said:


> Well, when your imports end up building rockets and tunnels, they tend to get restricted.


That only addresses the symptoms, not the disease itself.


----------



## Billo_Really

Hollie said:


> You need to keep up. Islamist terrorism is facilitated by directing UNRWA welfare funds to arms and ammunition for Hamas and other Islamic terrorist franchises.


That's the big lie you keep pushing.


----------



## Billo_Really

harmonica said:


> good--keep shooting the violent, murderous terrorists


And what about your violent, murderous terrorists?


----------



## Hollie

Billo_Really said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> You need to keep up. Islamist terrorism is facilitated by directing UNRWA welfare funds to arms and ammunition for Hamas and other Islamic terrorist franchises.
> 
> 
> 
> That's the big lie you keep pushing.
Click to expand...


You allow your ignorance to become an excuse for islamic terrorist apologetics.


----------



## Billo_Really

Hollie said:


> You allow your ignorance to become an excuse for islamic terrorist apologetics.


And there's another big lie you keep telling.


----------



## Hollie

Billo_Really said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> You allow your ignorance to become an excuse for islamic terrorist apologetics.
> 
> 
> 
> And there's another big lie you keep telling.
Click to expand...


Your ignorance is of your own making. It's a choice you made.


----------



## Billo_Really

Hollie said:


> Your ignorance is of your own making. It's a choice you made.


More off-topic comments from the I/P troll herself.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot

Billo_Really said:


> Toddsterpatriot said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well, when your imports end up building rockets and tunnels, they tend to get restricted.
> 
> 
> 
> That only addresses the symptoms, not the disease itself.
Click to expand...


I agree, the disease of radical Islam must be eradicated.


----------



## Coyote

RoccoR said:


> RE: Israeli forces shoot unarmed protesters from across Gaza security fence, killing at least 15
> ※→ Coyote, et al,
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> Ok...that's a good chart.  So rockets increased after Hamas was elected into power.  That still does not mean the blockade is NOT collective punishment* because it PUNISHES everyone - severely*.  This in particular impacts the ability of Gazans to access healthcare, including life-saving healthcare, adequate food, water, and electricity. Most recently, Abbas has joined with Israel in adding pressure to Gaza through withholding aid.  Given their economy is in shambles they can not export goods, leave to work, or import goods - most Gazans depend on aid.
> 
> 
> 
> *(COMMENT)*
> 
> Let's sync-up some serious points.  The Hostile Arab Palestinians (HoAP) cannot function in isolation.  The local people must have knowledge of the existence of hostile activity.  The HoAP cannot exist in cover and concealment without the active aid of the Gazan.  And the passive assistance was in the form of remaining silent and allowing hostile action to take place.
> 
> •  The Islamic Resistance Movement (HAMAS) is a known terrorist organization and has been so designated since 1997.
> 
> •  The population of Gaza voted overwhelmingly for the HAMAS.
> 
> •  The Gazan people supported the uses of unlawful violence and intimidation, 2005 Elections, in the pursuit of political aims through the systematic use of terror especially, as a means of coercion.
> 
> •  The Gazan people provided popular assistance in the necessities for organizing, instigating, facilitating, participating in, financing, encouraging or tolerating terrorist activities and to take appropriate practical measures to ensure that our respective territories are not used for terrorist installations or training camps, or for the preparation or organization of terrorist acts intended to be committed against other States or their citizens.​
> Does anything sound familiar here?  When you have a vast majority of the population elect an HoAP leadership, and for years, march around in masks and weapons, shouting war chants against Israel, at what point does that HoAP and general population become a State Sponsor of Terrorism?
> 
> We all see a different threshold.  We all believe something different in terms of justification one way or the other.  But at the end of the date, the General Population must understand that "no counter-terrorism policy can be effective without addressing conditions that are conducive to the spread of terrorism."  But still  - Nothing can justify terrorism — ever.  No grievance, No goal, No cause can excuse thirty years of violence the HoAP pursued.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> Why are medical supplies in such short supply?  Why is food so restricted?  Why is clean water restricted?  Why is electricity so restricted.   None, as far as I know, are part of making arms.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> *(COMMENT)*
> 
> There is a thriving black market and a corrupt management system for construction materials, so much so that some donors stay on site to protect the integrity of the project from diversion.
> 
> If someone asks me about the Gaza reconstruction process,
> I usually answer: it is a big zero.
> _Mamadou Sow,
> Head of the International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC) in Gaza,
> during an interview with the Safa Press Agency, 13 July 2015._​
> There is no question that certain parts of the Gaza Strip were severely damaged or destroyed; ostensibly by the Israelis.  But that cannot be laid entirely at the feet of the Israelis.  Just as we have seen in the last few weeks, the HoAP have a much different approach to the organization of public demonstrations and the exposure of the Gazan citizenry to risk and danger.  They will sacrifice lives for any number of reasons.
> 
> Most Respectfully,
> R
Click to expand...

I agree, nothing can justify terrorism.

But here are two things.

Are you saying collective punishment is justified?

In my view, like terrorism, it is never justified.

The second thing is, why did they vote in Hamas?


----------



## RetiredGySgt

Coyote said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> 
> RE: Israeli forces shoot unarmed protesters from across Gaza security fence, killing at least 15
> ※→ Coyote, et al,
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> Ok...that's a good chart.  So rockets increased after Hamas was elected into power.  That still does not mean the blockade is NOT collective punishment* because it PUNISHES everyone - severely*.  This in particular impacts the ability of Gazans to access healthcare, including life-saving healthcare, adequate food, water, and electricity. Most recently, Abbas has joined with Israel in adding pressure to Gaza through withholding aid.  Given their economy is in shambles they can not export goods, leave to work, or import goods - most Gazans depend on aid.
> 
> 
> 
> *(COMMENT)*
> 
> Let's sync-up some serious points.  The Hostile Arab Palestinians (HoAP) cannot function in isolation.  The local people must have knowledge of the existence of hostile activity.  The HoAP cannot exist in cover and concealment without the active aid of the Gazan.  And the passive assistance was in the form of remaining silent and allowing hostile action to take place.
> 
> •  The Islamic Resistance Movement (HAMAS) is a known terrorist organization and has been so designated since 1997.
> 
> •  The population of Gaza voted overwhelmingly for the HAMAS.
> 
> •  The Gazan people supported the uses of unlawful violence and intimidation, 2005 Elections, in the pursuit of political aims through the systematic use of terror especially, as a means of coercion.
> 
> •  The Gazan people provided popular assistance in the necessities for organizing, instigating, facilitating, participating in, financing, encouraging or tolerating terrorist activities and to take appropriate practical measures to ensure that our respective territories are not used for terrorist installations or training camps, or for the preparation or organization of terrorist acts intended to be committed against other States or their citizens.​
> Does anything sound familiar here?  When you have a vast majority of the population elect an HoAP leadership, and for years, march around in masks and weapons, shouting war chants against Israel, at what point does that HoAP and general population become a State Sponsor of Terrorism?
> 
> We all see a different threshold.  We all believe something different in terms of justification one way or the other.  But at the end of the date, the General Population must understand that "no counter-terrorism policy can be effective without addressing conditions that are conducive to the spread of terrorism."  But still  - Nothing can justify terrorism — ever.  No grievance, No goal, No cause can excuse thirty years of violence the HoAP pursued.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> Why are medical supplies in such short supply?  Why is food so restricted?  Why is clean water restricted?  Why is electricity so restricted.   None, as far as I know, are part of making arms.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> *(COMMENT)*
> 
> There is a thriving black market and a corrupt management system for construction materials, so much so that some donors stay on site to protect the integrity of the project from diversion.
> 
> If someone asks me about the Gaza reconstruction process,
> I usually answer: it is a big zero.
> _Mamadou Sow,
> Head of the International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC) in Gaza,
> during an interview with the Safa Press Agency, 13 July 2015._​
> There is no question that certain parts of the Gaza Strip were severely damaged or destroyed; ostensibly by the Israelis.  But that cannot be laid entirely at the feet of the Israelis.  Just as we have seen in the last few weeks, the HoAP have a much different approach to the organization of public demonstrations and the exposure of the Gazan citizenry to risk and danger.  They will sacrifice lives for any number of reasons.
> 
> Most Respectfully,
> R
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I agree, nothing can justify terrorism.
> 
> But here are two things.
> 
> Are you saying collective punishment is justified?
> 
> In my view, like terrorism, it is never justified.
> 
> The second thing is, why did they vote in Hamas?
Click to expand...

A blockade is by nature punitive.One must look at the reason for the blockade and pretending those reasons don't exists is ignorant. Israel blockades Gaza BECAUSE Hamas IMPORTS weapons to attack Israel. No blockade and the damage done to Israel would be catastrophic.


----------



## Coyote

Isn’t collective punishment in and of itself conducive to the spread of terrorism?


----------



## RetiredGySgt

Coyote said:


> Isn’t collective punishment in and of itself conducive to the spread of terrorism?


EXACTLY what choice does Israel have? If they do not control the importing of weapons they will be severely damaged. even with the blockade they are still attacked imagine if there was unrestricted trade.


----------



## theliq

fncceo said:


> mondoweiss.net ...
> 
> Not exactly an _unbiased _news source.


BUT CORRECT ALL THE SAME


----------



## theliq

Hollie said:


> From your link:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> IDF
> 
> ✔@IDFSpokesperson
> 
> Hamas tells the world about a peacful protest, it should be called a violent riot.


Hardly...how many Jews have been killed.....NONE...yet again you LIE...I am essentially here to kick Zionist Ass when they LIE....I'm doing well at it,now to change my footwear to STEEL CAPPED BOOTS............steve


----------



## theliq

skye said:


> Tijn Von Ingersleben said:
> 
> 
> 
> One of the two sides should hurry up and kill the other...I am tired of my tax dollars going toward this shit show.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> with money or without money...
> 
> the show will continue until the palestinians stop their tantrum.
Click to expand...

Usual Zionist Trump loving Banality,............YAWN.....so uncouth and unclean....you need your mouth washing out....Silly Skye Silly Skye rrrrrrrrrrrrrr


----------



## theliq

teddyearp said:


> Tijn Von Ingersleben said:
> 
> 
> 
> One of the two sides should hurry up and kill the other...I am tired of my tax dollars going toward this shit show.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, we know. In a way I agree about the funds, but how heartless of you to wish for death.
Click to expand...

I see you got a FUNNY from that wretch...gopta..........YUK.........you should watch who you associate with Teddy,I trust the Family and You are Well....steve


----------



## theliq

RetiredGySgt said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> Isn’t collective punishment in and of itself conducive to the spread of terrorism?
> 
> 
> 
> EXACTLY what choice does Israel have? If they do not control the importing of weapons they will be severely damaged. even with the blockade they are still attacked imagine if there was unrestricted trade.
Click to expand...

Stay Retired.....Retired...LOL...steve


----------



## fncceo

theliq said:


> .I am essentially here to kick Zionist Ass



People have tried that before ... didn't work out for them.







And they had a state-of-the-art air force.


----------



## ILOVEISRAEL

Coyote said:


> Isn’t collective punishment in and of itself conducive to the spread of terrorism?



A crowd is throwing Malotov the Cocktails


Coyote said:


> Isn’t collective punishment in and of itself conducive to the spread of terrorism?



You have an out of control crowd throwing Malatov Cocktails, using Bow and Arriws and other home made devices, setting fires, trying to actually enter Israel, etc. What should Israel have done?


----------



## ILOVEISRAEL

theliq said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> From your link:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> IDF
> 
> ✔@IDFSpokesperson
> 
> Hamas tells the world about a peacful protest, it should be called a violent riot.
> 
> 
> 
> Hardly...how many Jews have been killed.....NONE...yet again you LIE...I am essentially here to kick Zionist Ass when they LIE....I'm doing well at it,now to change my footwear to STEEL CAPPED BOOTS............steve
Click to expand...


YOU are here to “ Kick Zionist Ass” and your doing well? Now, that is actually funny.


----------



## Billo_Really

Toddsterpatriot said:


> I agree, the disease of radical Islam must be eradicated.


The disease, is the Israeli occupation.


----------



## rylah

Billo_Really said:


> Toddsterpatriot said:
> 
> 
> 
> I agree, the disease of radical Islam must be eradicated.
> 
> 
> 
> The disease, is the Israeli occupation.
Click to expand...


Or the cure, and Gaza is not occupied...but keep drinking don't let me bother You.


----------



## Billo_Really

rylah said:


> Or the cure, and Gaza is not occupied...but keep drinking don't let me bother You.


If its not occupied, then why can't they leave?  Why can't vessels bring in humanitarian aid to its ports, if it isn't occupied?

You don't have to have a standing army to satisfy the definition of an "occupation".


----------



## Billo_Really

Why doesn't the pro-Israeli crowd ever talk about the evil they bring to the table?


----------



## rylah

Billo_Really said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> Or the cure, and Gaza is not occupied...but keep drinking don't let me bother You.
> 
> 
> 
> If its not occupied, then why can't they leave?  Why can't vessels bring in humanitarian aid to its ports, if it isn't occupied?
> 
> You don't have to have a standing army to satisfy the definition of an "occupation".
Click to expand...


They can leave and they do abroad. Gaza has no port,  Hamas refused it time and time again.
Better tell me which law obligates any country to give entrance to a subject of an enemy state?


----------



## Humanity

fncceo said:


> Humanity said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> fncceo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It would have to be free ... no one is going to pay to take it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oh you just gotta love a dumbass comedian...
> 
> I'm quite sure that your beloved Israel would happily take full ownership. After all, I'm pretty sure that's their 'final solution'... Hmm sounds familiar!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You're ranting Jews are Nazis and_ I'm_ the comedian?  Thanks, Alanis.
Click to expand...


Oh dear, you are definitely Team Israel aren't you...

So, join the list of people who are accusing me of saying things that I have never said...

And, I will say to you as I have said to several Team Israel...

Show me where I have ranted about Jews being Nazis... I will wait... Just like I am STILL waiting for he other accusations...

Still nothing....

You are a liar, just like other Team Israel members, just like Israeli government ministers!


----------



## Humanity

ILOVEISRAEL said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> Isn’t collective punishment in and of itself conducive to the spread of terrorism?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A crowd is throwing Malotov the Cocktails
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> Isn’t collective punishment in and of itself conducive to the spread of terrorism?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You have an out of control crowd throwing Malatov Cocktails, using Bow and Arriws and other home made devices, setting fires, trying to actually enter Israel, etc. What should Israel have done?
Click to expand...


What have you been smoking?


----------



## Shusha

Wait. Hold on here. Isn't calling to rip the hearts out of Jews/Israelis "collective punishment"?


----------



## DarkFury

*15? Who the hell is training them? If it was less than three Israelis they need more range time!
That number is far to small. *


----------



## rylah

Coyote Shusha 
What do You think about this, and again You know my opinion if he was innocent, just think it might be relevant in light of the little info we have:

Hamas chief at Murtaja funeral.
*Investigation into the Murtaha clan
Journalists at Tzuk Eitan*


----------



## rylah

Shusha said:


> Wait. Hold on here. Isn't calling to rip the hearts out of Jews/Israelis "collective punishment"?



Declaration of war plain and simple.


----------



## rylah

Here's Murtaja using a drone during the march.


----------



## Humanity

rylah said:


> Here's Murtaja using a drone during the march.



And?

I didn't see it flying into Israeli air space, flying over IDF, didn't see any petrol bombs, hand grenades, cruise missiles attached to the drone...

So, thank you for showing that the Israel, once again, has murdered unarmed civilians!


----------



## Humanity

Shusha said:


> Wait. Hold on here. Isn't calling to rip the hearts out of Jews/Israelis "collective punishment"?



That is just dumb!

Talk about clutching at straws to try and wriggle out of a losing argument!

The blockade IS collective punishment, no matter how hard you try to argue against that, it is collective punishment!


----------



## rylah

Humanity said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> Here's Murtaja using a drone during the march.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And?
> 
> I didn't see it flying into Israeli air space, flying over IDF, didn't see any petrol bombs, hand grenades, cruise missiles attached to the drone...
> 
> So, thank you for showing that the Israel, once again, has murdered unarmed civilians!
Click to expand...



The guy called himself a soldier
He used a drone during violent confrontation initiated by his side
Hamas chief came to his funeral.
His cousin is a proven militant


*The Arabs LIED from day one that he didn't use the drone.*

Israelis on the other hand openly stated that they were not sure, or find evidence about the drone in response to Lieberman and opened an investigation. One doesn't get more openness and self critique than that in a civilized country.

The Gazans are their worst enemies, since day one of the march they, and their govt did every possible mistake to discredit themselves and give Israel every moral basis to act against their provocations. Even the Arab world sees it.

So much for calling everyone a lier....next time when You don't know for sure try to be less disrespectful and biased. It will make You look relevant, and add weight to Your words.


----------



## rylah

Humanity said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> Wait. Hold on here. Isn't calling to rip the hearts out of Jews/Israelis "collective punishment"?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That is just dumb!
> 
> Talk about clutching at straws to try and wriggle out of a losing argument!
> 
> The blockade IS collective punishment, no matter how hard you try to argue against that, it is collective punishment!
Click to expand...

You forgot to bring a swastika to make a point.

What losing argument? One cannot argue with suicidal maniacs.


----------



## ILOVEISRAEL

Humanity said:


> ILOVEISRAEL said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> Isn’t collective punishment in and of itself conducive to the spread of terrorism?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A crowd is throwing Malotov the Cocktails
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> Isn’t collective punishment in and of itself conducive to the spread of terrorism?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You have an out of control crowd throwing Malatov Cocktails, using Bow and Arriws and other home made devices, setting fires, trying to actually enter Israel, etc. What should Israel have done?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> What have you been smoking?
Click to expand...


You’re the one who has been smoking and drinking. The Palestinians never threw Malatov Cocktails, etc.etc. At Israeli Soldiers?


----------



## ILOVEISRAEL

Humanity said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> Wait. Hold on here. Isn't calling to rip the hearts out of Jews/Israelis "collective punishment"?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That is just dumb!
> 
> Talk about clutching at straws to try and wriggle out of a losing argument!
> 
> The blockade IS collective punishment, no matter how hard you try to argue against that, it is collective punishment!
Click to expand...


This is just dumb!

Talk about clutching at straws to try and wiggle out of a losing argument.  !!
   Smuggling weapons into Gaza, shooting Rockets, etc. etc. to kill innocent civilians is O.K. With you? Of course it is
    Israel is supposed to single out the perpetrators from the “ innocent civilians?”
   That is just dumb!!!!


----------



## Billo_Really

rylah said:


> They can leave and they do abroad. Gaza has no port,  Hamas refused it time and time again.
> Better tell me which law obligates any country to give entrance to a subject of an enemy state?


You're a fuckin' liar!

_[Israel] "...does not permit Palestinian, Israeli and foreign staff of human rights organizations to enter or leave Gaza. Israel controls Gaza’s airspace and territorial waters and has prevented the operation of an airport or seaport for the past two decades..."_ 

_"Israel’s restrictions on access to and from Gaza go far beyond what is permitted by international humanitarian law and human rights law. Because Israel continues to exercise control over significant aspects of life in Gaza, it continues to have obligations under the law of occupation in the areas in which it continues to exercise control..."_​
Israel also shoots unarmed protesters.  

Fuckers like you, act as though the Palestinians don't have the right to have rights.  Fuckers like you are cowards.  You never talk about the evil you bring to the table.


----------



## rylah

Billo_Really said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> They can leave and they do abroad. Gaza has no port,  Hamas refused it time and time again.
> Better tell me which law obligates any country to give entrance to a subject of an enemy state?
> 
> 
> 
> You're a fuckin' liar!
> 
> _[Israel] "...does not permit Palestinian, Israeli and foreign staff of human rights organizations to enter or leave Gaza. Israel controls Gaza’s airspace and territorial waters and has prevented the operation of an airport or seaport for the past two decades..."_
> 
> _"Israel’s restrictions on access to and from Gaza go far beyond what is permitted by international humanitarian law and human rights law. Because Israel continues to exercise control over significant aspects of life in Gaza, it continues to have obligations under the law of occupation in the areas in which it continues to exercise control..."_​
> Israel also shoots unarmed protesters.
> 
> Fuckers like you, act as though the Palestinians don't have the right to have rights.  Fuckers like you are cowards.  You never talk about the evil you bring to the table.
Click to expand...



Next time try a real source.

Gazans leaving Gaza
Gazans in Egypt.
Gazans in Berlin

I still don't see the law that obligates a country to give entrance to subjects of an enemy state.


----------



## dannyboys

If the Israeli soldiers only killed 16 rioters I strongly urge the Israeli gov. to train the soldiers better in aiming their weapons.


----------



## harmonica

Billo_Really said:


> harmonica said:
> 
> 
> 
> good--keep shooting the violent, murderous terrorists
> 
> 
> 
> And what about your violent, murderous terrorists?
Click to expand...

which ones would that be??


----------



## Billo_Really

rylah said:


> Next time try a real source.


Ad hominems are not valid rebuttals.  You don't consider Human Rights Watch a real source?  Is it because you don't consider human rights real?



rylah said:


> Gazans leaving Gaza


You picked this only because it contained the words "Palestinians leaving Gaza".  Talk about a ruse...



rylah said:


> Gazans in Egypt.


160 Palestinians out of 2 million?  And you're using this to argue Gazans can leave the area as they wish?

From your own source...

_"The Gaza Strip - home to some two million Palestinians - does not have an airport and has been under an Israeli land, sea and air blockade for over a decade."_​
So your argument is, even though there is an Israeli blockade of Gaza, people can freely come and go as they please?



rylah said:


> Gazans in Berlin


As far as the girl in Berlin...

_"She hopes that her husband and her parents will soon join her, but so* far all of her parents efforts to leave Gaza have failed*."_​


rylah said:


> I still don't see the law that obligates a country to give entrance to subjects of an enemy state.


I don't see a law that allows Israel to make decisions for other country's.


----------



## Billo_Really

harmonica said:


> which ones would that be??


Right off the top of my head, how 'bout Israeli snipers shooting unarmed Palestinians?


----------



## rylah

Billo_Really said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Next time try a real source.
> 
> 
> 
> Ad hominems are not valid rebuttals.  You don't consider Human Rights Watch a real source?  Is it because you don't consider human rights real?
> 
> 
> 
> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> Gazans leaving Gaza
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You picked this only because it contained the words "Palestinians leaving Gaza".  Talk about a ruse...
> 
> 
> 
> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> Gazans in Egypt.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 160 Palestinians out of 2 million?  And you're using this to argue Gazans can leave the area as they wish?
> 
> From your own source...
> 
> _"The Gaza Strip - home to some two million Palestinians - does not have an airport and has been under an Israeli land, sea and air blockade for over a decade."_​
> So your argument is, even though there is an Israeli blockade of Gaza, people can freely come and go as they please?
> 
> 
> 
> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> Gazans in Berlin
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> As far as the girl in Berlin...
> 
> _"She hopes that her husband and her parents will soon join her, but so* far all of her parents efforts to leave Gaza have failed*."_​
> 
> 
> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> I still don't see the law that obligates a country to give entrance to subjects of an enemy state.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I don't see a law that allows Israel to make decisions for other country's.
Click to expand...

*All it took me was 1 post and You confirm that You're full of it. *

No law no whining. When Hamas stop their stupid wars, Israel and Egypt might be more accommodating - but they owe NOTHING to the Gazans.

BTW Hamas themselves closed the crossings more than once blocking their own people from leaving.


----------



## harmonica

Billo_Really said:


> harmonica said:
> 
> 
> 
> which ones would that be??
> 
> 
> 
> Right off the top of my head, how 'bout Israeli snipers shooting unarmed Palestinians?
Click to expand...

..in general it is not the policy of Israelis to murder/target innocent civilians
..there will always be mistakes/errors/lone wolves/etc--but it is not Israel's policy to murder/target innocent civilians
it IS the policy of the Pals to murder/directly target innocent civilians


----------



## Hollie

Billo_Really said:


> harmonica said:
> 
> 
> 
> which ones would that be??
> 
> 
> 
> Right off the top of my head, how 'bout Israeli snipers shooting unarmed Palestinians?
Click to expand...


I think you mean unarmed Arabs-Moslems excepting the Arabs-Moslems armed with Molotov cocktails and explosives. 

After all, Hamas is paying the minions for their injuries, so why not take one for the gee-had?


----------



## harmonica

Billo_Really said:


> harmonica said:
> 
> 
> 
> which ones would that be??
> 
> 
> 
> Right off the top of my head, how 'bout Israeli snipers shooting unarmed Palestinians?
Click to expand...

I've been through this before on other threads and proved it--Israel does not generally/not policy to murder civilians as it is for the Pals


----------



## Correll

rylah said:


> Billo_Really said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> They can leave and they do abroad. Gaza has no port,  Hamas refused it time and time again.
> Better tell me which law obligates any country to give entrance to a subject of an enemy state?
> 
> 
> 
> You're a fuckin' liar!
> 
> _[Israel] "...does not permit Palestinian, Israeli and foreign staff of human rights organizations to enter or leave Gaza. Israel controls Gaza’s airspace and territorial waters and has prevented the operation of an airport or seaport for the past two decades..."_
> 
> _"Israel’s restrictions on access to and from Gaza go far beyond what is permitted by international humanitarian law and human rights law. Because Israel continues to exercise control over significant aspects of life in Gaza, it continues to have obligations under the law of occupation in the areas in which it continues to exercise control..."_​
> Israel also shoots unarmed protesters.
> 
> Fuckers like you, act as though the Palestinians don't have the right to have rights.  Fuckers like you are cowards.  You never talk about the evil you bring to the table.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Next time try a real source.
> 
> Gazans leaving Gaza
> Gazans in Egypt.
> Gazans in Berlin
> 
> I still don't see the law that obligates a country to give entrance to subjects of an enemy state.
Click to expand...



I wonder why the Egyptians so tightly control travel into and out of Gaza. 


Are they working with the Jews?


----------



## Hollie

Employees at Pallywood Productions Inc., are working overtime


----------



## rylah

Correll said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Billo_Really said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> They can leave and they do abroad. Gaza has no port,  Hamas refused it time and time again.
> Better tell me which law obligates any country to give entrance to a subject of an enemy state?
> 
> 
> 
> You're a fuckin' liar!
> 
> _[Israel] "...does not permit Palestinian, Israeli and foreign staff of human rights organizations to enter or leave Gaza. Israel controls Gaza’s airspace and territorial waters and has prevented the operation of an airport or seaport for the past two decades..."_
> 
> _"Israel’s restrictions on access to and from Gaza go far beyond what is permitted by international humanitarian law and human rights law. Because Israel continues to exercise control over significant aspects of life in Gaza, it continues to have obligations under the law of occupation in the areas in which it continues to exercise control..."_​
> Israel also shoots unarmed protesters.
> 
> Fuckers like you, act as though the Palestinians don't have the right to have rights.  Fuckers like you are cowards.  You never talk about the evil you bring to the table.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Next time try a real source.
> 
> Gazans leaving Gaza
> Gazans in Egypt.
> Gazans in Berlin
> 
> I still don't see the law that obligates a country to give entrance to subjects of an enemy state.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> I wonder why the Egyptians so tightly control travel into and out of Gaza.
> 
> 
> Are they working with the Jews?
Click to expand...


Egypt has it's own security interests.
In one word- ARMS TRAFFICKING PREVENTION:


Egypt also fights the Islamic state in Sinai, while their militants infiltrate Gaza.
Just two weeks ago they jammed all their communication to spot the Islamists from Sinai in Gaza.

Not to mention that Egypt doesn't look all to well at Gaza becoming an Iranian proxy.
It's a serious problem in the neighborhood.


----------



## Correll

rylah said:


> Correll said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Billo_Really said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> They can leave and they do abroad. Gaza has no port,  Hamas refused it time and time again.
> Better tell me which law obligates any country to give entrance to a subject of an enemy state?
> 
> 
> 
> You're a fuckin' liar!
> 
> _[Israel] "...does not permit Palestinian, Israeli and foreign staff of human rights organizations to enter or leave Gaza. Israel controls Gaza’s airspace and territorial waters and has prevented the operation of an airport or seaport for the past two decades..."_
> 
> _"Israel’s restrictions on access to and from Gaza go far beyond what is permitted by international humanitarian law and human rights law. Because Israel continues to exercise control over significant aspects of life in Gaza, it continues to have obligations under the law of occupation in the areas in which it continues to exercise control..."_​
> Israel also shoots unarmed protesters.
> 
> Fuckers like you, act as though the Palestinians don't have the right to have rights.  Fuckers like you are cowards.  You never talk about the evil you bring to the table.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Next time try a real source.
> 
> Gazans leaving Gaza
> Gazans in Egypt.
> Gazans in Berlin
> 
> I still don't see the law that obligates a country to give entrance to subjects of an enemy state.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> I wonder why the Egyptians so tightly control travel into and out of Gaza.
> 
> 
> Are they working with the Jews?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Egypt has it's own security interests.
> In one word- ARMS TRAFFICKING PREVENTION:
> 
> 
> Egypt also fights the Islamic state in Sinai, while their militants infiltrate Gaza.
> Just two weeks ago they jammed all their communication to spot the Islamists from Sinai in Gaza.
> 
> Not to mention that Egypt doesn't look all to well at Gaza becoming an Iranian proxy.
> It's a serious problem.
Click to expand...



Jeez, Gaza, a hot bed of terrorism? Who would have thunk it?


----------



## Coyote

rylah said:


> Here's Murtaja using a drone during the march.


Ok, that clarifies it somewhat, but does not justify his killing. I guess Drones have become a common journalistic tool these days it seems. Killing journalists is a way of intimidating reporting of an event. And has become far to common a tactic to suppress the media in certain parts of the world.  This wasn’t a war, this was a demonstration turned violent.  A journalist should not have been targeted.  His final piece was quite beautifully done, showing a lot of promise now gone.

Palestinian journalist's final footage from Israel-Gaza border released | CBC Radio
*'Putting himself at risk'*
Murtaja, 30, was the co-founder of Ain, a local TV production company that has done projects, including aerial drone video, for foreign media clients such as the BBC and Al Jazeera English.

He was one of the first to bring a drone camera into Gaza and his images captivated many of its residents who have never seen Gaza from above since it has no airport or skyscrapers.


----------



## RoccoR

RE: Israeli forces shoot unarmed protesters from across Gaza security fence, killing at least 15
※→ Coyote, et al,

What I think "collective punishment " is _(like lining people up against the wall and shooting them)_ and what you think "collective punishment" is, are different things.



Coyote said:


> I agree nothing can justify terrorism.
> 
> But here are two things.
> 
> Are you saying collective punishment is justified?
> 
> In my view, like terrorism, it is never justified.
> 
> The second thing is, why did they vote in Hamas?


*(COMMENT)*

The First Thing:

✪  I cannot think of a true "collective punishment" that is justified.  But I don't confuse a "adverse consequence" on a population for their actions, and a "collective punishment."

✪  Remember, the blockade is no more an "illegal collective punishment" than in the imposition of "approved sanctions - imbargoes - or boycotts."​
The Second Thing:  The vote is an alternative is between people who wanted change in the hope of progress _(not the status quo)_ → and → people who want to preserve the devil they knew _(what peace and security they had)_, versus the devil they did not know _(continuous cycle of violence)_.  ⇒  It is two different views of that particular segment of society.

✪  A generation ago (30 years) ⇒ there were those that thought they saw an opportunity to establish a "Holy   Possession" that would afford compelling and charming personality with dynamic traits that would appeal to the young Arab, attract those Arabs with a taste for revenge, and alluring to others that could not resist the compulsory that the banner of Jihad be raised.

✪  Some, within the Arab Palestinian population, began to see themselves as havingthe embodied qualities of strength, courage and determination.  They gradually developed into into a single-minded, action-oriented, Islamic version of the Warrior Spirit, one worthy of fighting the glamourous Jihad.​The Arab Palestinian, inter-culturally gradually spawned a group dynamic not so dissimilar from the Western relentless and committed souls that were born out of the desperation of the day → almost a form of spirituality; → joining the fight against the social injustices as they perceived them.

“Victory at all costs, 
victory in spite of all terror, 
victory however long and hard the road may be; 
for without victory, there is no survival.”
..................— _Winston Churchill
_​

Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## Coyote

Shusha said:


> Wait. Hold on here. Isn't calling to rip the hearts out of Jews/Israelis "collective punishment"?


Only if it is taken into action against a people they have the power to punish.  Otherwise it is rhetoric, terrorism or murder.


----------



## Coyote

rylah said:


> Humanity said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> Here's Murtaja using a drone during the march.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And?
> 
> I didn't see it flying into Israeli air space, flying over IDF, didn't see any petrol bombs, hand grenades, cruise missiles attached to the drone...
> 
> So, thank you for showing that the Israel, once again, has murdered unarmed civilians!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> The guy called himself a soldier
> He used a drone during violent confrontation initiated by his side
> Hamas chief came to his funeral.
> His cousin is a proven militant
> 
> 
> *The Arabs LIED from day one that he didn't use the drone.*
> 
> Israelis on the other hand openly stated that they were not sure, or find evidence about the drone in response to Lieberman and opened an investigation. One doesn't get more openness and self critique than that in a civilized country.
> 
> The Gazans are their worst enemies, since day one of the march they, and their govt did every possible mistake to discredit themselves and give Israel every moral basis to act against their provocations. Even the Arab world sees it.
> 
> So much for calling everyone a lier....next time when You don't know for sure try to be less disrespectful and biased. It will make You look relevant, and add weight to Your words.
Click to expand...

 Of course Hamas would come to his funeral.  It is a great propaganda moment.

Hamas is intertwined in the governance of Gaza.  It is impossible to find someone who doesn’t have a relative or friend associated with them.  Guilt by association.


----------



## Coyote

ILOVEISRAEL said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> Isn’t collective punishment in and of itself conducive to the spread of terrorism?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A crowd is throwing Malotov the Cocktails
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> Isn’t collective punishment in and of itself conducive to the spread of terrorism?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You have an out of control crowd throwing Malatov Cocktails, using Bow and Arriws and other home made devices, setting fires, trying to actually enter Israel, etc. What should Israel have done?
Click to expand...


I already asked that in post 823.  But when I mentioned collective punishment I wasn’t referring to this demonstration.  I understand Israel’s actions.


----------



## Coyote

RoccoR said:


> RE: Israeli forces shoot unarmed protesters from across Gaza security fence, killing at least 15
> ※→ Coyote, et al,
> 
> What I think "collective punishment " is _(like lining people up against the wall and shooting them)_ and what you think "collective punishment" is, are different things.
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> I agree nothing can justify terrorism.
> 
> But here are two things.
> 
> Are you saying collective punishment is justified?
> 
> In my view, like terrorism, it is never justified.
> 
> The second thing is, why did they vote in Hamas?
> 
> 
> 
> *(COMMENT)*
> 
> The First Thing:
> 
> ✪  I cannot think of a true "collective punishment" that is justified.  But I don't confuse a "adverse consequence" on a population for their actions, and a "collective punishment."
> 
> ✪  Remember, the blockade is no more an "illegal collective punishment" than in the imposition of "approved sanctions - imbargoes - or boycotts."​
> The Second Thing:  The vote is an alternative is between people who wanted change in the hope of progress _(not the status quo)_ → and → people who want to preserve the devil they knew _(what peace and security they had)_, versus the devil they did not know _(continuous cycle of violence)_.  ⇒  It is two different views of that particular segment of society.
> 
> ✪  A generation ago (30 years) ⇒ there were those that thought they saw an opportunity to establish a "Holy   Possession" that would afford compelling and charming personality with dynamic traits that would appeal to the young Arab, attract those Arabs with a taste for revenge, and alluring to others that could not resist the compulsory that the banner of Jihad be raised.
> 
> ✪  Some, within the Arab Palestinian population, began to see themselves as havingthe embodied qualities of strength, courage and determination.  They gradually developed into into a single-minded, action-oriented, Islamic version of the Warrior Spirit, one worthy of fighting the glamourous Jihad.​The Arab Palestinian, inter-culturally gradually spawned a group dynamic not so dissimilar from the Western relentless and committed souls that were born out of the desperation of the day → almost a form of spirituality; → joining the fight against the social injustices as they perceived them.
> 
> “Victory at all costs,
> victory in spite of all terror,
> victory however long and hard the road may be;
> for without victory, there is no survival.”
> ..................— _Winston Churchill
> _​
> 
> Most Respectfully,
> R
Click to expand...

Thank you


----------



## Coyote

Humanity said:


> fncceo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Humanity said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> fncceo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It would have to be free ... no one is going to pay to take it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oh you just gotta love a dumbass comedian...
> 
> I'm quite sure that your beloved Israel would happily take full ownership. After all, I'm pretty sure that's their 'final solution'... Hmm sounds familiar!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You're ranting Jews are Nazis and_ I'm_ the comedian?  Thanks, Alanis.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Oh dear, you are definitely Team Israel aren't you...
> 
> So, join the list of people who are accusing me of saying things that I have never said...
> 
> And, I will say to you as I have said to several Team Israel...
> 
> Show me where I have ranted about Jews being Nazis... I will wait... Just like I am STILL waiting for he other accusations...
> 
> Still nothing....
> 
> You are a liar, just like other Team Israel members, just like Israeli government ministers!
Click to expand...

I have never heard you say that, that is a low blow in a convo that has largely managed to stay above that.


----------



## Coyote

...lll


rylah said:


> Billo_Really said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> They can leave and they do abroad. Gaza has no port,  Hamas refused it time and time again.
> Better tell me which law obligates any country to give entrance to a subject of an enemy state?
> 
> 
> 
> You're a fuckin' liar!
> 
> _[Israel] "...does not permit Palestinian, Israeli and foreign staff of human rights organizations to enter or leave Gaza. Israel controls Gaza’s airspace and territorial waters and has prevented the operation of an airport or seaport for the past two decades..."_
> 
> _"Israel’s restrictions on access to and from Gaza go far beyond what is permitted by international humanitarian law and human rights law. Because Israel continues to exercise control over significant aspects of life in Gaza, it continues to have obligations under the law of occupation in the areas in which it continues to exercise control..."_​
> Israel also shoots unarmed protesters.
> 
> Fuckers like you, act as though the Palestinians don't have the right to have rights.  Fuckers like you are cowards.  You never talk about the evil you bring to the table.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Next time try a real source.
> 
> Gazans leaving Gaza
> Gazans in Egypt.
> Gazans in Berlin
> 
> I still don't see the law that obligates a country to give entrance to subjects of an enemy state.
Click to expand...


And some more real sources...

More Gazans said risking sea passage for better life in Europe


----------



## Coyote

Something else which isn’t exactly being brought to the forefront...

Desperate Gazans protesting against Israel, but also Hamas

Still, Palestinians in Gaza hardly need an Israeli internet campaign to grasp their grim predicament. The humanitarian crisis is severe, and they have identified those responsible. A human rights activist told Al-Monitor that Palestinians undoubtedly blame Israel and the chokehold it exerts over its population every hour of every day for the shortages and poverty reminiscent of the poorest neighborhoods in Africa or Asia. *They also, however, blame Hamas and its leadership’s misguided priorities. They are afraid to say so out loud for fear of reprisals, the source said, but every adult and child in Gaza, whether a Hamas supporter or opponent, knows the organization’s priorities are skewed and that it takes care of its activists, leaders and the movement itself, neglecting other residents.*

The border fence protests began as a private, civilian-led initiative by Mohammed Abu Artema, a human rights activist. Abu Artema had pondered on Facebook what would happen if hundreds of thousands of Gazans were to march to the Erez border crossing and protest against the siege. His initiative drew enthusiastic responses from many young Palestinians, and Hamas saw in it an opportunity to be exploited for its own ends. *Abu Artema had hoped for a nonviolent protest, but Hamas decided to turn it into a series of “marches” under its sponsorship in the hopes that they would help the movement extricate itself from its diplomatic and economic plight*. After only one week of mass demonstrations, it transpired that the protest against the Israeli siege was also directed against Hamas and its rule.



Read more: Desperate Gazans protesting against Israel, but also Hamas


----------



## Humanity

rylah said:


> Humanity said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> Wait. Hold on here. Isn't calling to rip the hearts out of Jews/Israelis "collective punishment"?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That is just dumb!
> 
> Talk about clutching at straws to try and wriggle out of a losing argument!
> 
> The blockade IS collective punishment, no matter how hard you try to argue against that, it is collective punishment!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You forgot to bring a swastika to make a point.
> 
> What losing argument? One cannot argue with suicidal maniacs.
Click to expand...


Was I referring to a comment YOU made?

Nope...

However, if you would like to address the dumb comment made by someone else please, be my guest...

The conversation is about "collective punishment"... Let's see if you can join in THAT conversation or you will just deflect facts and run...

However, there was NO mention of swastikas. So... Either respond on someones behalf on the topic or, respectfully, fuck off and try elsewhere..


----------



## Humanity

ILOVEISRAEL said:


> Humanity said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> Wait. Hold on here. Isn't calling to rip the hearts out of Jews/Israelis "collective punishment"?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That is just dumb!
> 
> Talk about clutching at straws to try and wriggle out of a losing argument!
> 
> The blockade IS collective punishment, no matter how hard you try to argue against that, it is collective punishment!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> This is just dumb!
> 
> Talk about clutching at straws to try and wiggle out of a losing argument.  !!
> Smuggling weapons into Gaza, shooting Rockets, etc. etc. to kill innocent civilians is O.K. With you? Of course it is
> Israel is supposed to single out the perpetrators from the “ innocent civilians?”
> That is just dumb!!!!
Click to expand...


Oh no, another dumbass fucking idiot...

How about you try and address the topic or STFU...

The conversation is about "collective punishment"... Do you have issues with reading/comprehension/English?

Yours, and many other Team Israels attempts to deflect from this FACT is very telling of your mentality, lack of understanding and your outright belligerence ...

Now, do you want to comment on "collective punishment" or not? If you don't it's ok, I wouldn't want you to hurt yourself!


----------



## Indeependent

Humanity said:


> ILOVEISRAEL said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Humanity said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> Wait. Hold on here. Isn't calling to rip the hearts out of Jews/Israelis "collective punishment"?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That is just dumb!
> 
> Talk about clutching at straws to try and wriggle out of a losing argument!
> 
> The blockade IS collective punishment, no matter how hard you try to argue against that, it is collective punishment!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> This is just dumb!
> 
> Talk about clutching at straws to try and wiggle out of a losing argument.  !!
> Smuggling weapons into Gaza, shooting Rockets, etc. etc. to kill innocent civilians is O.K. With you? Of course it is
> Israel is supposed to single out the perpetrators from the “ innocent civilians?”
> That is just dumb!!!!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Oh no, another dumbass fucking idiot...
> 
> How about you try and address the topic or STFU...
> 
> The conversation is about "collective punishment"... Do you have issues with reading/comprehension/English?
> 
> Yours, and many other Team Israels attempts to deflect from this FACT is very telling of your mentality, lack of understanding and your outright belligerence ...
> 
> Now, do you want to comment on "collective punishment" or not? If you don't it's ok, I wouldn't want you to hurt yourself!
Click to expand...

Visit Gaza lately wearing a cross?


----------



## Humanity

ILOVEISRAEL said:


> Humanity said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ILOVEISRAEL said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> Isn’t collective punishment in and of itself conducive to the spread of terrorism?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A crowd is throwing Malotov the Cocktails
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> Isn’t collective punishment in and of itself conducive to the spread of terrorism?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You have an out of control crowd throwing Malatov Cocktails, using Bow and Arriws and other home made devices, setting fires, trying to actually enter Israel, etc. What should Israel have done?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> What have you been smoking?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You’re the one who has been smoking and drinking. The Palestinians never threw Malatov Cocktails, etc.etc. At Israeli Soldiers?
Click to expand...


Another fail...

The conversation is "collective punishment" by use of an illegal blockade...

Put that bottle of JD down, put that joint down and see if you can actually join in the conversation. It's ok if you can't, we understand that it may be a little over your head... I'm sure one more spliff will help!


----------



## RetiredGySgt

Humanity said:


> ILOVEISRAEL said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Humanity said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ILOVEISRAEL said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> Isn’t collective punishment in and of itself conducive to the spread of terrorism?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A crowd is throwing Malotov the Cocktails
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> Isn’t collective punishment in and of itself conducive to the spread of terrorism?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You have an out of control crowd throwing Malatov Cocktails, using Bow and Arriws and other home made devices, setting fires, trying to actually enter Israel, etc. What should Israel have done?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> What have you been smoking?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You’re the one who has been smoking and drinking. The Palestinians never threw Malatov Cocktails, etc.etc. At Israeli Soldiers?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Another fail...
> 
> The conversation is "collective punishment" by use of an illegal blockade...
> 
> Put that bottle of JD down, put that joint down and see if you can actually join in the conversation. It's ok if you can't, we understand that it may be a little over your head... I'm sure one more spliff will help!
Click to expand...

Actually RETARD it is not an illegal blockade. But then any lie will do when defending terrorists right?


----------



## rylah

Humanity said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Humanity said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> Wait. Hold on here. Isn't calling to rip the hearts out of Jews/Israelis "collective punishment"?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That is just dumb!
> 
> Talk about clutching at straws to try and wriggle out of a losing argument!
> 
> The blockade IS collective punishment, no matter how hard you try to argue against that, it is collective punishment!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You forgot to bring a swastika to make a point.
> 
> What losing argument? One cannot argue with suicidal maniacs.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Was I referring to a comment YOU made?
> 
> Nope...
> 
> However, if you would like to address the dumb comment made by someone else please, be my guest...
> 
> The conversation is about "collective punishment"... Let's see if you can join in THAT conversation or you will just deflect facts and run...
> 
> However, there was NO mention of swastikas. So... Either respond on someones behalf on the topic or, respectfully, fuck off and try elsewhere..
Click to expand...


Can I ask You to be a bit more respectful?

I don't see the blockade as a punishment but as defense against an enemy state,
ruled by Islamists who're sworn to murder Jews and destroy Israel.

Then again one comes to Israel waving a Swastika and expects anything else but a bullet in the head? Not so much brain in there anyway...


----------



## rylah

Humanity 
Simple question, if there was nothing to hide,

 why did Gazans LIE so long about the drone?


----------



## Indeependent

Humanity said:


> ILOVEISRAEL said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Humanity said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ILOVEISRAEL said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> Isn’t collective punishment in and of itself conducive to the spread of terrorism?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A crowd is throwing Malotov the Cocktails
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> Isn’t collective punishment in and of itself conducive to the spread of terrorism?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You have an out of control crowd throwing Malatov Cocktails, using Bow and Arriws and other home made devices, setting fires, trying to actually enter Israel, etc. What should Israel have done?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> What have you been smoking?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You’re the one who has been smoking and drinking. The Palestinians never threw Malatov Cocktails, etc.etc. At Israeli Soldiers?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Another fail...
> 
> The conversation is "collective punishment" by use of an illegal blockade...
> 
> Put that bottle of JD down, put that joint down and see if you can actually join in the conversation. It's ok if you can't, we understand that it may be a little over your head... I'm sure one more spliff will help!
Click to expand...

How old were you in 1998?
Were you even born?
How come the Western Gazans don’t help their terrorist “brothers” in Eastern Gaza?


----------



## rylah

Indeependent said:


> Humanity said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ILOVEISRAEL said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Humanity said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ILOVEISRAEL said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> Isn’t collective punishment in and of itself conducive to the spread of terrorism?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A crowd is throwing Malotov the Cocktails
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> Isn’t collective punishment in and of itself conducive to the spread of terrorism?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You have an out of control crowd throwing Malatov Cocktails, using Bow and Arriws and other home made devices, setting fires, trying to actually enter Israel, etc. What should Israel have done?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> What have you been smoking?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You’re the one who has been smoking and drinking. The Palestinians never threw Malatov Cocktails, etc.etc. At Israeli Soldiers?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Another fail...
> 
> The conversation is "collective punishment" by use of an illegal blockade...
> 
> Put that bottle of JD down, put that joint down and see if you can actually join in the conversation. It's ok if you can't, we understand that it may be a little over your head... I'm sure one more spliff will help!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> How old were you in 1998?
> Were you even born?
> How come the Western Gazans don’t help their terrorist “brothers” in Eastern Gaza?
Click to expand...


Never heard about that. Just to think that You live overseas and know more about Gaza than me living here...

Sounds interesting, link me.


----------



## Indeependent

rylah said:


> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Humanity said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ILOVEISRAEL said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Humanity said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ILOVEISRAEL said:
> 
> 
> 
> A crowd is throwing Malotov the Cocktails
> You have an out of control crowd throwing Malatov Cocktails, using Bow and Arriws and other home made devices, setting fires, trying to actually enter Israel, etc. What should Israel have done?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What have you been smoking?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You’re the one who has been smoking and drinking. The Palestinians never threw Malatov Cocktails, etc.etc. At Israeli Soldiers?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Another fail...
> 
> The conversation is "collective punishment" by use of an illegal blockade...
> 
> Put that bottle of JD down, put that joint down and see if you can actually join in the conversation. It's ok if you can't, we understand that it may be a little over your head... I'm sure one more spliff will help!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> How old were you in 1998?
> Were you even born?
> How come the Western Gazans don’t help their terrorist “brothers” in Eastern Gaza?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Never heard about that. Just to think that You live overseas and know more about Gaza than me living here...
> 
> Sounds interesting, link me.
Click to expand...

You’ve never seen the malls and mansions in the Western Gaza?
I’m at the gym; just do a search.


----------



## Indeependent

rylah said:


> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Humanity said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ILOVEISRAEL said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Humanity said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ILOVEISRAEL said:
> 
> 
> 
> A crowd is throwing Malotov the Cocktails
> You have an out of control crowd throwing Malatov Cocktails, using Bow and Arriws and other home made devices, setting fires, trying to actually enter Israel, etc. What should Israel have done?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What have you been smoking?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You’re the one who has been smoking and drinking. The Palestinians never threw Malatov Cocktails, etc.etc. At Israeli Soldiers?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Another fail...
> 
> The conversation is "collective punishment" by use of an illegal blockade...
> 
> Put that bottle of JD down, put that joint down and see if you can actually join in the conversation. It's ok if you can't, we understand that it may be a little over your head... I'm sure one more spliff will help!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> How old were you in 1998?
> Were you even born?
> How come the Western Gazans don’t help their terrorist “brothers” in Eastern Gaza?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Never heard about that. Just to think that You live overseas and know more about Gaza than me living here...
> 
> Sounds interesting, link me.
Click to expand...

Mansions of the West Bank and Gaza


----------



## Humanity

Indeependent said:


> Humanity said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ILOVEISRAEL said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Humanity said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> Wait. Hold on here. Isn't calling to rip the hearts out of Jews/Israelis "collective punishment"?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That is just dumb!
> 
> Talk about clutching at straws to try and wriggle out of a losing argument!
> 
> The blockade IS collective punishment, no matter how hard you try to argue against that, it is collective punishment!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> This is just dumb!
> 
> Talk about clutching at straws to try and wiggle out of a losing argument.  !!
> Smuggling weapons into Gaza, shooting Rockets, etc. etc. to kill innocent civilians is O.K. With you? Of course it is
> Israel is supposed to single out the perpetrators from the “ innocent civilians?”
> That is just dumb!!!!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Oh no, another dumbass fucking idiot...
> 
> How about you try and address the topic or STFU...
> 
> The conversation is about "collective punishment"... Do you have issues with reading/comprehension/English?
> 
> Yours, and many other Team Israels attempts to deflect from this FACT is very telling of your mentality, lack of understanding and your outright belligerence ...
> 
> Now, do you want to comment on "collective punishment" or not? If you don't it's ok, I wouldn't want you to hurt yourself!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Visit Gaza lately wearing a cross?
Click to expand...


Yep. You?

Want to discuss collective punishment or you just a Team Israel troll like the rest of them?


----------



## Humanity

rylah said:


> Humanity
> Simple question, if there was nothing to hide,
> 
> why did Gazans LIE so long about the drone?



Did they?

I really do not see that as an issue even if they did...

Why did Israel lie?

Have you seen any video of the drone being flown into Israeli airspace?

Have you seen any video of the drone being flown in an aggressive manner toward the IDF?

I for one would certainly not expect to be shot and killed for flying a drone in my back yard... Would you?


----------



## Humanity

rylah said:


> Humanity said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Humanity said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> Wait. Hold on here. Isn't calling to rip the hearts out of Jews/Israelis "collective punishment"?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That is just dumb!
> 
> Talk about clutching at straws to try and wriggle out of a losing argument!
> 
> The blockade IS collective punishment, no matter how hard you try to argue against that, it is collective punishment!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You forgot to bring a swastika to make a point.
> 
> What losing argument? One cannot argue with suicidal maniacs.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Was I referring to a comment YOU made?
> 
> Nope...
> 
> However, if you would like to address the dumb comment made by someone else please, be my guest...
> 
> The conversation is about "collective punishment"... Let's see if you can join in THAT conversation or you will just deflect facts and run...
> 
> However, there was NO mention of swastikas. So... Either respond on someones behalf on the topic or, respectfully, fuck off and try elsewhere..
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Can I ask You to be a bit more respectful?
> 
> I don't see the blockade as a punishment but as defense against an enemy state,
> ruled by Islamists who're sworn to murder Jews and destroy Israel.
> 
> Then again one comes to Israel waving a Swastika and expects anything else but a bullet in the head? Not so much brain in there anyway...
Click to expand...


You can ask whatever you wish... However, unlike the Team Israel sheep who follow a very strict, though rather confused agenda, I don't have to comply to 'requests'.

No, you wouldn't see the blockade for what it is, collective punishment, I wouldn't expect you to... Team Israel against the rest of the world on that one!

You need to try and focus on one thing at a time... Your attempts, again, at deflecting from the question, collective punishment, is a clear sign that you are in 'fear' of being proven a liar.


----------



## ILOVEISRAEL

Humanity said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Humanity said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Humanity said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> Wait. Hold on here. Isn't calling to rip the hearts out of Jews/Israelis "collective punishment"?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That is just dumb!
> 
> Talk about clutching at straws to try and wriggle out of a losing argument!
> 
> The blockade IS collective punishment, no matter how hard you try to argue against that, it is collective punishment!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You forgot to bring a swastika to make a point.
> 
> What losing argument? One cannot argue with suicidal maniacs.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Was I referring to a comment YOU made?
> 
> Nope...
> 
> However, if you would like to address the dumb comment made by someone else please, be my guest...
> 
> The conversation is about "collective punishment"... Let's see if you can join in THAT conversation or you will just deflect facts and run...
> 
> However, there was NO mention of swastikas. So... Either respond on someones behalf on the topic or, respectfully, fuck off and try elsewhere..
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Can I ask You to be a bit more respectful?
> 
> I don't see the blockade as a punishment but as defense against an enemy state,
> ruled by Islamists who're sworn to murder Jews and destroy Israel.
> 
> Then again one comes to Israel waving a Swastika and expects anything else but a bullet in the head? Not so much brain in there anyway...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You can ask whatever you wish... However, unlike the Team Israel sheep who follow a very strict, though rather confused agenda, I don't have to comply to 'requests'.
> 
> No, you wouldn't see the blockade for what it is, collective punishment, I wouldn't expect you to... Team Israel against the rest of the world on that one!
> 
> You need to try and focus on one thing at a time... Your attempts, again, at deflecting from the question, collective punishment, is a clear sign that you are in 'fear' of being proven a liar.
Click to expand...




Humanity said:


> ILOVEISRAEL said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Humanity said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> Wait. Hold on here. Isn't calling to rip the hearts out of Jews/Israelis "collective punishment"?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That is just dumb!
> 
> Talk about clutching at straws to try and wriggle out of a losing argument!
> 
> The blockade IS collective punishment, no matter how hard you try to argue against that, it is collective punishment!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> This is just dumb!
> 
> Talk about clutching at straws to try and wiggle out of a losing argument.  !!
> Smuggling weapons into Gaza, shooting Rockets, etc. etc. to kill innocent civilians is O.K. With you? Of course it is
> Israel is supposed to single out the perpetrators from the “ innocent civilians?”
> That is just dumb!!!!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Oh no, another dumbass fucking idiot...
> 
> How about you try and address the topic or STFU...
> 
> The conversation is about "collective punishment"... Do you have issues with reading/comprehension/English?
> 
> Yours, and many other Team Israels attempts to deflect from this FACT is very telling of your mentality, lack of understanding and your outright belligerence ...
> 
> Now, do you want to comment on "collective punishment" or not? If you don't it's ok, I wouldn't want you to hurt yourself!
Click to expand...

 
The conversation is about “ Collective Punishment”   When Rockets, Malatov Cocktails , etc. are thrown at you from “ individuals” that you can’t identify, what should Israel do? This is a question that was asked before and of course there is no response . Now, dumbass, read slowly and try to answer the question. Can you comment on that or not? I wouldn’t want you to hurt yourself.


----------



## Coyote

Collective punishment, embargos, blockades, sanctions...

Collective Punishment
*Collective punishment* is a form of retaliation whereby a suspected perpetrator's family members, friends, acquaintances, sect, neighbors or entire ethnic group is targeted. The punished group may often have no direct association with the other individuals or groups, or direct control over their actions. In times of war and armed conflict, collective punishment has resulted in atrocities, and is a violation of the laws of war and the Geneva Conventions.[1] Historically, occupying powers have used collective punishment to retaliate against and deter attacks on their forces by Resistance movements (such as destroying entire towns and villages which were believed to have harboured or aided such resistance movements).

Looking at this definition, actions that Israel has engaged in, such as destroying the homes of the families of terrorists IS collective punishment.

But there is a lack of moral clarity in the use of embargos, blockades, seiges and sanctions.  Are they collective punishment?

When do they become collective punishment?

Blockades and sanctions represent a form of "soft" pressure on a state to change some form of behavior.  That's better than bombing them.  So at some point collective punishment seems to be "ok" - western countries are using it on NK, it was used on Saddam's Iraq, pre-civil war Syria...and it HAS had some positive results - bringing people to the negotiating table for example.

At what point do blockades become morally unacceptable?


----------



## P F Tinmore

rylah said:


> Correll said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Billo_Really said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> They can leave and they do abroad. Gaza has no port,  Hamas refused it time and time again.
> Better tell me which law obligates any country to give entrance to a subject of an enemy state?
> 
> 
> 
> You're a fuckin' liar!
> 
> _[Israel] "...does not permit Palestinian, Israeli and foreign staff of human rights organizations to enter or leave Gaza. Israel controls Gaza’s airspace and territorial waters and has prevented the operation of an airport or seaport for the past two decades..."_
> 
> _"Israel’s restrictions on access to and from Gaza go far beyond what is permitted by international humanitarian law and human rights law. Because Israel continues to exercise control over significant aspects of life in Gaza, it continues to have obligations under the law of occupation in the areas in which it continues to exercise control..."_​
> Israel also shoots unarmed protesters.
> 
> Fuckers like you, act as though the Palestinians don't have the right to have rights.  Fuckers like you are cowards.  You never talk about the evil you bring to the table.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Next time try a real source.
> 
> Gazans leaving Gaza
> Gazans in Egypt.
> Gazans in Berlin
> 
> I still don't see the law that obligates a country to give entrance to subjects of an enemy state.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> I wonder why the Egyptians so tightly control travel into and out of Gaza.
> 
> 
> Are they working with the Jews?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Egypt has it's own security interests.
> In one word- ARMS TRAFFICKING PREVENTION:
> 
> 
> Egypt also fights the Islamic state in Sinai, while their militants infiltrate Gaza.
> Just two weeks ago they jammed all their communication to spot the Islamists from Sinai in Gaza.
> 
> Not to mention that Egypt doesn't look all to well at Gaza becoming an Iranian proxy.
> It's a serious problem in the neighborhood.
Click to expand...

Seems strange because Egypt and Hamas are fighting against the same people.


----------



## Correll

P F Tinmore said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Correll said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Billo_Really said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> They can leave and they do abroad. Gaza has no port,  Hamas refused it time and time again.
> Better tell me which law obligates any country to give entrance to a subject of an enemy state?
> 
> 
> 
> You're a fuckin' liar!
> 
> _[Israel] "...does not permit Palestinian, Israeli and foreign staff of human rights organizations to enter or leave Gaza. Israel controls Gaza’s airspace and territorial waters and has prevented the operation of an airport or seaport for the past two decades..."_
> 
> _"Israel’s restrictions on access to and from Gaza go far beyond what is permitted by international humanitarian law and human rights law. Because Israel continues to exercise control over significant aspects of life in Gaza, it continues to have obligations under the law of occupation in the areas in which it continues to exercise control..."_​
> Israel also shoots unarmed protesters.
> 
> Fuckers like you, act as though the Palestinians don't have the right to have rights.  Fuckers like you are cowards.  You never talk about the evil you bring to the table.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Next time try a real source.
> 
> Gazans leaving Gaza
> Gazans in Egypt.
> Gazans in Berlin
> 
> I still don't see the law that obligates a country to give entrance to subjects of an enemy state.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> I wonder why the Egyptians so tightly control travel into and out of Gaza.
> 
> 
> Are they working with the Jews?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Egypt has it's own security interests.
> In one word- ARMS TRAFFICKING PREVENTION:
> 
> 
> Egypt also fights the Islamic state in Sinai, while their militants infiltrate Gaza.
> Just two weeks ago they jammed all their communication to spot the Islamists from Sinai in Gaza.
> 
> Not to mention that Egypt doesn't look all to well at Gaza becoming an Iranian proxy.
> It's a serious problem in the neighborhood.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Seems strange because Egypt and Hamas are fighting against the same people.
Click to expand...



That is true.


It seems that despite that unifying enemy, that the people of Gaza are such that the Egyptians don't trust them to behave in a civilized fashion, if allowed to travel into, or even though their nation.


----------



## RetiredGySgt

Coyote said:


> Collective punishment, embargos, blockades, sanctions...
> 
> Collective Punishment
> *Collective punishment* is a form of retaliation whereby a suspected perpetrator's family members, friends, acquaintances, sect, neighbors or entire ethnic group is targeted. The punished group may often have no direct association with the other individuals or groups, or direct control over their actions. In times of war and armed conflict, collective punishment has resulted in atrocities, and is a violation of the laws of war and the Geneva Conventions.[1] Historically, occupying powers have used collective punishment to retaliate against and deter attacks on their forces by Resistance movements (such as destroying entire towns and villages which were believed to have harboured or aided such resistance movements).
> 
> Looking at this definition, actions that Israel has engaged in, such as destroying the homes of the families of terrorists IS collective punishment.
> 
> But there is a lack of moral clarity in the use of embargos, blockades, seiges and sanctions.  Are they collective punishment?
> 
> When do they become collective punishment?
> 
> Blockades and sanctions represent a form of "soft" pressure on a state to change some form of behavior.  That's better than bombing them.  So at some point collective punishment seems to be "ok" - western countries are using it on NK, it was used on Saddam's Iraq, pre-civil war Syria...and it HAS had some positive results - bringing people to the negotiating table for example.
> 
> At what point do blockades become morally unacceptable?


You have FAILED to answer my question. How else does Israel contain the rampant weapons shipments that are used to attack her?


----------



## Correll

RetiredGySgt said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> Collective punishment, embargos, blockades, sanctions...
> 
> Collective Punishment
> *Collective punishment* is a form of retaliation whereby a suspected perpetrator's family members, friends, acquaintances, sect, neighbors or entire ethnic group is targeted. The punished group may often have no direct association with the other individuals or groups, or direct control over their actions. In times of war and armed conflict, collective punishment has resulted in atrocities, and is a violation of the laws of war and the Geneva Conventions.[1] Historically, occupying powers have used collective punishment to retaliate against and deter attacks on their forces by Resistance movements (such as destroying entire towns and villages which were believed to have harboured or aided such resistance movements).
> 
> Looking at this definition, actions that Israel has engaged in, such as destroying the homes of the families of terrorists IS collective punishment.
> 
> But there is a lack of moral clarity in the use of embargos, blockades, seiges and sanctions.  Are they collective punishment?
> 
> When do they become collective punishment?
> 
> Blockades and sanctions represent a form of "soft" pressure on a state to change some form of behavior.  That's better than bombing them.  So at some point collective punishment seems to be "ok" - western countries are using it on NK, it was used on Saddam's Iraq, pre-civil war Syria...and it HAS had some positive results - bringing people to the negotiating table for example.
> 
> At what point do blockades become morally unacceptable?
> 
> 
> 
> You have FAILED to answer my question. How else does Israel contain the rampant weapons shipments that are used to attack her?
Click to expand...




I want to point out, that this is what that humanitarian convoy of a few years back was.


IF the Israelis had allowed that convoy to pass, and then went back to maintaining the blockade, 


at that point, it would be an illegal blockade.


And the genocidal assholes calling it "illegal" would be technically correct.


----------



## P F Tinmore

rylah said:


> Here's Murtaja using a drone during the march.


Good post, thanks.

Where it the violent riot that Israeli propaganda bullshit is always talking about?


----------



## RoccoR

RE:  Israeli forces shoot unarmed protesters from across Gaza security fence, killing at least 15
※→  Coyote, et al,

All over the world, the use of cars, boats, homes, planes and whatever, have been subject to goverment seizure when law enforcement connects that property with certain crimes.  More often than not, it is some connection made with illicited transport of "drugs."  But it could be any number of violations; to include the use of homes and conveyances as "safe houses" by an individual or group connected with the direct support for Jihadism, Deadly Fedayeen Action, Hostile Insurgency Operations, Radicalized Islamic Behaviors, and Asymmetric Violence.



Coyote said:


> Looking at this definition, actions that Israel has engaged in, such as destroying the homes of the families of terrorists IS collective punishment.


*(COMMENT)*

Following is the full text of the Resolution and the Plan of Action:

Plan of Action
Measures to address the conditions conducive to the spread of terrorism
Measures to prevent and combat terrorism
Measures to build States' capacity to prevent and combat terrorism and to strengthen the role of the United Nations system in this regard
Measures to ensure respect for human rights for all and the rule of law as the fundamental basis of the fight against terrorism
Resolution: The United Nations Global Counter-Terrorism Strategy
*ANNEX*
*Plan of Action*

*Section II. Measures to prevent and combat terrorism:*

We resolve to undertake the following measures to prevent and combat terrorism, in particular by denying terrorists access to the means to carry out their attacks, to their targets and to the desired impact of their attacks:
→ ...
2.  To cooperate fully in the fight against terrorism, in accordance with our obligations under international law, in order to find, deny safe haven and bring to justice, on the basis of the principle of extradite or prosecute, any person who supports, facilitates, participates or attempts to participate in the financing, planning, preparation or perpetration of terrorist acts or provides safe havens.
→ ...​
Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## Shusha

Coyote said:


> Collective punishment, embargos, blockades, sanctions...
> 
> Collective Punishment
> *Collective punishment* is a form of retaliation whereby a suspected perpetrator's family members, friends, acquaintances, sect, neighbors or entire ethnic group is targeted. The punished group may often have no direct association with the other individuals or groups, or direct control over their actions. In times of war and armed conflict, collective punishment has resulted in atrocities, and is a violation of the laws of war and the Geneva Conventions.[1] Historically, occupying powers have used collective punishment to retaliate against and deter attacks on their forces by Resistance movements (such as destroying entire towns and villages which were believed to have harboured or aided such resistance movements).
> 
> Looking at this definition, actions that Israel has engaged in, such as destroying the homes of the families of terrorists IS collective punishment.
> 
> But there is a lack of moral clarity in the use of embargos, blockades, seiges and sanctions.  Are they collective punishment?
> 
> When do they become collective punishment?
> 
> Blockades and sanctions represent a form of "soft" pressure on a state to change some form of behavior.  That's better than bombing them.  So at some point collective punishment seems to be "ok" - western countries are using it on NK, it was used on Saddam's Iraq, pre-civil war Syria...and it HAS had some positive results - bringing people to the negotiating table for example.
> 
> At what point do blockades become morally unacceptable?




I agree that destroying the homes of relatives of terrorists is collective punishment. It is both morally and legally wrong of Israel to do so. 

The blockade, however, is not intended as a deterent or as punishment and isn't collective punishment. It has the very specific intent of preventing certain materials and weapons from entering Gaza. 

Now, if you want to argue that there are certain sanctions which ARE collective punishment such as adding tires to the sanctions list then I might be able to agree. (Might). 

But then I think we would have to talk about things like BDS. Are boycotts, divestment and sanctions also collective punishment?


----------



## Coyote

RoccoR said:


> RE:  Israeli forces shoot unarmed protesters from across Gaza security fence, killing at least 15
> ※→  Coyote, et al,
> 
> All over the world, the use of cars, boats, homes, planes and whatever, have been subject to goverment seizure when law enforcement connects that property with certain crimes.  More often than not, it is some connection made with illicited transport of "drugs."  But it could be any number of violations; to include the use of homes and conveyances as "safe houses" by an individual or group connected with the direct support for Jihadism, Deadly Fedayeen Action, Hostile Insurgency Operations, Radicalized Islamic Behaviors, and Asymmetric Violence.
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> Looking at this definition, actions that Israel has engaged in, such as destroying the homes of the families of terrorists IS collective punishment.
> 
> 
> 
> *(COMMENT)*
> 
> Following is the full text of the Resolution and the Plan of Action:
> 
> Plan of Action
> Measures to address the conditions conducive to the spread of terrorism
> Measures to prevent and combat terrorism
> Measures to build States' capacity to prevent and combat terrorism and to strengthen the role of the United Nations system in this regard
> Measures to ensure respect for human rights for all and the rule of law as the fundamental basis of the fight against terrorism
> Resolution: The United Nations Global Counter-Terrorism Strategy
> *ANNEX*
> *Plan of Action*
> 
> *Section II. Measures to prevent and combat terrorism:*
> 
> We resolve to undertake the following measures to prevent and combat terrorism, in particular by denying terrorists access to the means to carry out their attacks, to their targets and to the desired impact of their attacks:
> → ...
> 2.  To cooperate fully in the fight against terrorism, in accordance with our obligations under international law, in order to find, deny safe haven and bring to justice, on the basis of the principle of extradite or prosecute, any person who supports, facilitates, participates or attempts to participate in the financing, planning, preparation or perpetration of terrorist acts or provides safe havens.
> → ...​
> Most Respectfully,
> R
Click to expand...


I'm not sure how that relates to what I said Rocco, because I am not talking about confiscation for criminal purposes.  I'm talking about destroying the homes of a terrorist's family - who have not engaged in criminal behavior - as punishment.


----------



## Coyote

Shusha said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> Collective punishment, embargos, blockades, sanctions...
> 
> Collective Punishment
> *Collective punishment* is a form of retaliation whereby a suspected perpetrator's family members, friends, acquaintances, sect, neighbors or entire ethnic group is targeted. The punished group may often have no direct association with the other individuals or groups, or direct control over their actions. In times of war and armed conflict, collective punishment has resulted in atrocities, and is a violation of the laws of war and the Geneva Conventions.[1] Historically, occupying powers have used collective punishment to retaliate against and deter attacks on their forces by Resistance movements (such as destroying entire towns and villages which were believed to have harboured or aided such resistance movements).
> 
> Looking at this definition, actions that Israel has engaged in, such as destroying the homes of the families of terrorists IS collective punishment.
> 
> But there is a lack of moral clarity in the use of embargos, blockades, seiges and sanctions.  Are they collective punishment?
> 
> When do they become collective punishment?
> 
> Blockades and sanctions represent a form of "soft" pressure on a state to change some form of behavior.  That's better than bombing them.  So at some point collective punishment seems to be "ok" - western countries are using it on NK, it was used on Saddam's Iraq, pre-civil war Syria...and it HAS had some positive results - bringing people to the negotiating table for example.
> 
> At what point do blockades become morally unacceptable?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I agree that destroying the homes of relatives of terrorists is collective punishment. It is both morally and legally wrong of Israel to do so.
Click to expand...


Thank you 



> The blockade, however, is not intended as a deterent or as punishment and isn't collective punishment. It has the very specific intent of preventing certain materials and weapons from entering Gaza.
> 
> Now, if you want to argue that there are certain sanctions which ARE collective punishment such as adding tires to the sanctions list then I might be able to agree. (Might).
> 
> *But then I think we would have to talk about things like BDS. Are boycotts, divestment and sanctions also collective punishment?*



I agree - and that was my question in my post...*when does something go from sanctions/etc to collective punishment?*

In terms of sanctions...electricity is being restricted and this has a 3-part blame to it: Hamas, PA primarily - and Israel secondarily.

U.N. urges end to Gaza crisis in punishing summer heat

According to this one, Israel has times limited basic goods:

Israel allows limited humanitarian supplies from aid organizations into the Gaza Strip, but not dual-use items, which can also be used for military purposes. According to the Coordinator of Government Activities in the Territories of the Israel Defense Forces, in *May 2010, this included over 1.5 million litres of diesel fuel and gasoline, fruits and vegetables, wheat, sugar, meat, chicken and fish products, dairy products, animal feed, hygiene products, clothing and shoes*.[22]

According to Gisha, items that have at various times been denied importation into Gaza in 2010 include ordinary consumer goods such as jam, candles, books, musical instruments, shampoo, A4 paper, and livestock such as chicken, donkeys, and cows.[23][24]

According to the UN Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs at various times, Israel has blocked goods including wheelchairs, dry food items, and crayons, Stationery, soccer balls, and musical instruments.[25][26][27] International aid group Mercy Corps said it was blocked from sending 90 tons of macaroni and other foodstuffs. After international pressure, Israeli authorities said that they were giving the shipment a green light.[28] Israel was also reported to have prevented aid groups from sending in other items, such as paper, crayons, tomato paste and lentils.[29]


----------



## P F Tinmore

RetiredGySgt said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> Collective punishment, embargos, blockades, sanctions...
> 
> Collective Punishment
> *Collective punishment* is a form of retaliation whereby a suspected perpetrator's family members, friends, acquaintances, sect, neighbors or entire ethnic group is targeted. The punished group may often have no direct association with the other individuals or groups, or direct control over their actions. In times of war and armed conflict, collective punishment has resulted in atrocities, and is a violation of the laws of war and the Geneva Conventions.[1] Historically, occupying powers have used collective punishment to retaliate against and deter attacks on their forces by Resistance movements (such as destroying entire towns and villages which were believed to have harboured or aided such resistance movements).
> 
> Looking at this definition, actions that Israel has engaged in, such as destroying the homes of the families of terrorists IS collective punishment.
> 
> But there is a lack of moral clarity in the use of embargos, blockades, seiges and sanctions.  Are they collective punishment?
> 
> When do they become collective punishment?
> 
> Blockades and sanctions represent a form of "soft" pressure on a state to change some form of behavior.  That's better than bombing them.  So at some point collective punishment seems to be "ok" - western countries are using it on NK, it was used on Saddam's Iraq, pre-civil war Syria...and it HAS had some positive results - bringing people to the negotiating table for example.
> 
> At what point do blockades become morally unacceptable?
> 
> 
> 
> You have FAILED to answer my question. How else does Israel contain the rampant weapons shipments that are used to attack her?
Click to expand...

What does a farmer exporting strawberries have to do with weapons? Or a student going to college in the US or Europe have to do with weapons?


----------



## P F Tinmore

Correll said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Correll said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Billo_Really said:
> 
> 
> 
> You're a fuckin' liar!
> 
> _[Israel] "...does not permit Palestinian, Israeli and foreign staff of human rights organizations to enter or leave Gaza. Israel controls Gaza’s airspace and territorial waters and has prevented the operation of an airport or seaport for the past two decades..."_
> 
> _"Israel’s restrictions on access to and from Gaza go far beyond what is permitted by international humanitarian law and human rights law. Because Israel continues to exercise control over significant aspects of life in Gaza, it continues to have obligations under the law of occupation in the areas in which it continues to exercise control..."_​
> Israel also shoots unarmed protesters.
> 
> Fuckers like you, act as though the Palestinians don't have the right to have rights.  Fuckers like you are cowards.  You never talk about the evil you bring to the table.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Next time try a real source.
> 
> Gazans leaving Gaza
> Gazans in Egypt.
> Gazans in Berlin
> 
> I still don't see the law that obligates a country to give entrance to subjects of an enemy state.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> I wonder why the Egyptians so tightly control travel into and out of Gaza.
> 
> 
> Are they working with the Jews?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Egypt has it's own security interests.
> In one word- ARMS TRAFFICKING PREVENTION:
> 
> 
> Egypt also fights the Islamic state in Sinai, while their militants infiltrate Gaza.
> Just two weeks ago they jammed all their communication to spot the Islamists from Sinai in Gaza.
> 
> Not to mention that Egypt doesn't look all to well at Gaza becoming an Iranian proxy.
> It's a serious problem in the neighborhood.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Seems strange because Egypt and Hamas are fighting against the same people.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> That is true.
> 
> 
> It seems that despite that unifying enemy, that the people of Gaza are such that the Egyptians don't trust them to behave in a civilized fashion, if allowed to travel into, or even though their nation.
Click to expand...

Do you think the couple billion dollars a year that the US has given to Egypt since the peace agreement has anything to do with that?


----------



## Correll

P F Tinmore said:


> Correll said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Correll said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Next time try a real source.
> 
> Gazans leaving Gaza
> Gazans in Egypt.
> Gazans in Berlin
> 
> I still don't see the law that obligates a country to give entrance to subjects of an enemy state.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I wonder why the Egyptians so tightly control travel into and out of Gaza.
> 
> 
> Are they working with the Jews?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Egypt has it's own security interests.
> In one word- ARMS TRAFFICKING PREVENTION:
> 
> 
> Egypt also fights the Islamic state in Sinai, while their militants infiltrate Gaza.
> Just two weeks ago they jammed all their communication to spot the Islamists from Sinai in Gaza.
> 
> Not to mention that Egypt doesn't look all to well at Gaza becoming an Iranian proxy.
> It's a serious problem in the neighborhood.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Seems strange because Egypt and Hamas are fighting against the same people.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> That is true.
> 
> 
> It seems that despite that unifying enemy, that the people of Gaza are such that the Egyptians don't trust them to behave in a civilized fashion, if allowed to travel into, or even though their nation.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Do you think the couple billion dollars a year that the US has given to Egypt since the peace agreement has anything to do with that?
Click to expand...


No, the US has no reason to care if the people of Gaza get to roam around Egypt.

Or though it.


----------



## P F Tinmore

RetiredGySgt said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> Collective punishment, embargos, blockades, sanctions...
> 
> Collective Punishment
> *Collective punishment* is a form of retaliation whereby a suspected perpetrator's family members, friends, acquaintances, sect, neighbors or entire ethnic group is targeted. The punished group may often have no direct association with the other individuals or groups, or direct control over their actions. In times of war and armed conflict, collective punishment has resulted in atrocities, and is a violation of the laws of war and the Geneva Conventions.[1] Historically, occupying powers have used collective punishment to retaliate against and deter attacks on their forces by Resistance movements (such as destroying entire towns and villages which were believed to have harboured or aided such resistance movements).
> 
> Looking at this definition, actions that Israel has engaged in, such as destroying the homes of the families of terrorists IS collective punishment.
> 
> But there is a lack of moral clarity in the use of embargos, blockades, seiges and sanctions.  Are they collective punishment?
> 
> When do they become collective punishment?
> 
> Blockades and sanctions represent a form of "soft" pressure on a state to change some form of behavior.  That's better than bombing them.  So at some point collective punishment seems to be "ok" - western countries are using it on NK, it was used on Saddam's Iraq, pre-civil war Syria...and it HAS had some positive results - bringing people to the negotiating table for example.
> 
> At what point do blockades become morally unacceptable?
> 
> 
> 
> You have FAILED to answer my question. How else does Israel contain the rampant weapons shipments that are used to attack her?
Click to expand...

Weapons is just Israeli propaganda bullshit. For example the flotillas was inspected by the governments where loaded. Everyone was invited to inspect the cargo before departure. The flotilla offered to allow any international body to inspect while at sea.

Everybody knew there were no weapons. Israel attacked and killed people anyway.


----------



## rylah

P F Tinmore said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> Here's Murtaja using a drone during the march.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Good post, thanks.
> 
> Where it the violent riot that Israeli propaganda bullshit is always talking about?
Click to expand...


*In the rifles, molotovs, granades , IED's , calls for violence and attempt to breach the fence to act upon those calls by Hamas.*
All of that has already been presented in many ways throughout the thread, I suggest You go back and read the thread - there's plenty of undeniable evidence to violent intent and action. 

The question about why there's no footage of that in the Palestinian propaganda is ridiculous and naive -the same as asking why doesn't the criminal provide evidence to his crime.

The video in itself - contradicts the lies about the drone spread by Gazans for days.
Lack of evidence, in the form of the bullet, footage of the incident itself, or a concrete proof by Hamas that he was killed by an Israeli  - IS TELLING.
And even rise bigger questions about the possibility of direct Hamas involvement in his death, for propaganda purposes.

I'm yet rule this out with the way this case goes.


----------



## Billo_Really

rylah said:


> *All it took me was 1 post and You confirm that You're full of it. *
> 
> No law no whining. When Hamas stop their stupid wars, Israel and Egypt might be more accommodating - but they owe NOTHING to the Gazans.
> 
> BTW Hamas themselves closed the crossings more than once blocking their own people from leaving.


Since 2/3's of my response was from sources you provided, you make up 66% of my "fullness".

BTW, Hamas didn't start the war, Israel did.  That's what those unarmed Palestinians were protesting when your fuckers murdered them in cold blood.  You showed the entire world you think Palestinians don't even have the right to protest.


----------



## P F Tinmore

RoccoR said:


> RE:  Israeli forces shoot unarmed protesters from across Gaza security fence, killing at least 15
> ※→  Coyote, et al,
> 
> All over the world, the use of cars, boats, homes, planes and whatever, have been subject to goverment seizure when law enforcement connects that property with certain crimes.  More often than not, it is some connection made with illicited transport of "drugs."  But it could be any number of violations; to include the use of homes and conveyances as "safe houses" by an individual or group connected with the direct support for Jihadism, Deadly Fedayeen Action, Hostile Insurgency Operations, Radicalized Islamic Behaviors, and Asymmetric Violence.
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> Looking at this definition, actions that Israel has engaged in, such as destroying the homes of the families of terrorists IS collective punishment.
> 
> 
> 
> *(COMMENT)*
> 
> Following is the full text of the Resolution and the Plan of Action:
> 
> Plan of Action
> Measures to address the conditions conducive to the spread of terrorism
> Measures to prevent and combat terrorism
> Measures to build States' capacity to prevent and combat terrorism and to strengthen the role of the United Nations system in this regard
> Measures to ensure respect for human rights for all and the rule of law as the fundamental basis of the fight against terrorism
> Resolution: The United Nations Global Counter-Terrorism Strategy
> *ANNEX*
> *Plan of Action*
> 
> *Section II. Measures to prevent and combat terrorism:*
> 
> We resolve to undertake the following measures to prevent and combat terrorism, in particular by denying terrorists access to the means to carry out their attacks, to their targets and to the desired impact of their attacks:
> → ...
> 2.  To cooperate fully in the fight against terrorism, in accordance with our obligations under international law, in order to find, deny safe haven and bring to justice, on the basis of the principle of extradite or prosecute, any person who supports, facilitates, participates or attempts to participate in the financing, planning, preparation or perpetration of terrorist acts or provides safe havens.
> → ...​
> Most Respectfully,
> R
Click to expand...

Are you still on that terrorism propaganda bullshit?


----------



## Correll

P F Tinmore said:


> RetiredGySgt said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> Collective punishment, embargos, blockades, sanctions...
> 
> Collective Punishment
> *Collective punishment* is a form of retaliation whereby a suspected perpetrator's family members, friends, acquaintances, sect, neighbors or entire ethnic group is targeted. The punished group may often have no direct association with the other individuals or groups, or direct control over their actions. In times of war and armed conflict, collective punishment has resulted in atrocities, and is a violation of the laws of war and the Geneva Conventions.[1] Historically, occupying powers have used collective punishment to retaliate against and deter attacks on their forces by Resistance movements (such as destroying entire towns and villages which were believed to have harboured or aided such resistance movements).
> 
> Looking at this definition, actions that Israel has engaged in, such as destroying the homes of the families of terrorists IS collective punishment.
> 
> But there is a lack of moral clarity in the use of embargos, blockades, seiges and sanctions.  Are they collective punishment?
> 
> When do they become collective punishment?
> 
> Blockades and sanctions represent a form of "soft" pressure on a state to change some form of behavior.  That's better than bombing them.  So at some point collective punishment seems to be "ok" - western countries are using it on NK, it was used on Saddam's Iraq, pre-civil war Syria...and it HAS had some positive results - bringing people to the negotiating table for example.
> 
> At what point do blockades become morally unacceptable?
> 
> 
> 
> You have FAILED to answer my question. How else does Israel contain the rampant weapons shipments that are used to attack her?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Weapons is just Israeli propaganda bullshit. For example the flotillas was inspected by the governments where loaded. Everyone was invited to inspect the cargo before departure. The flotilla offered to allow any international body to inspect while at sea.
> 
> Everybody knew there were no weapons. Israel attacked and killed people anyway.
Click to expand...



And if it was allowed to pass, then the blockade would become an illegal blockade.


And the weapons would flow.


----------



## Billo_Really

harmonica said:


> ..in general it is not the policy of Israelis to murder/target innocent civilians
> ..there will always be mistakes/errors/lone wolves/etc--but it is not Israel's policy to murder/target innocent civilians
> it IS the policy of the Pals to murder/directly target innocent civilians


Videos showed them being shot in the head by Israeli snipers.  IDF leaders have already gone on record as saying all their bullets went where they intended to go.

You're FOS!  It has been Israeli policy since before it was Israel, to target innocent civilians.  Just ask the members of Irgun, which is now the Likud Party.


----------



## rylah

Billo_Really said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> *All it took me was 1 post and You confirm that You're full of it. *
> 
> No law no whining. When Hamas stop their stupid wars, Israel and Egypt might be more accommodating - but they owe NOTHING to the Gazans.
> 
> BTW Hamas themselves closed the crossings more than once blocking their own people from leaving.
> 
> 
> 
> Since 2/3's of my response was from sources you provided, you make up 66% of my "fullness".
> 
> BTW, Hamas didn't start the war, Israel did.  That's what those unarmed Palestinians were protesting when your fuckers murdered them in cold blood.  You showed the entire world you think Palestinians don't even have the right to protest.
Click to expand...


By the response I read on Arab social media, here as well - the notion is towards Israel.

The Swastika on their flag said it all, and the open call for murder also didn't go unnoticed.

Gazans are their own worst enemies.


----------



## harmonica

Billo_Really said:


> harmonica said:
> 
> 
> 
> ..in general it is not the policy of Israelis to murder/target innocent civilians
> ..there will always be mistakes/errors/lone wolves/etc--but it is not Israel's policy to murder/target innocent civilians
> it IS the policy of the Pals to murder/directly target innocent civilians
> 
> 
> 
> Videos showed them being shot in the head by Israeli snipers.  IDF leaders have already gone on record as saying all their bullets went where they intended to go.
> 
> You're FOS!  It has been Israeli policy since before it was Israel, to target innocent civilians.  Just ask the members of Irgun, which is now the Likud Party.
Click to expand...

please provide proof it is Israeli policy to directly target civilians
so a sniper shot a civilian---this does not show Israeli policy


----------



## rylah

P F Tinmore said:


> RetiredGySgt said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> Collective punishment, embargos, blockades, sanctions...
> 
> Collective Punishment
> *Collective punishment* is a form of retaliation whereby a suspected perpetrator's family members, friends, acquaintances, sect, neighbors or entire ethnic group is targeted. The punished group may often have no direct association with the other individuals or groups, or direct control over their actions. In times of war and armed conflict, collective punishment has resulted in atrocities, and is a violation of the laws of war and the Geneva Conventions.[1] Historically, occupying powers have used collective punishment to retaliate against and deter attacks on their forces by Resistance movements (such as destroying entire towns and villages which were believed to have harboured or aided such resistance movements).
> 
> Looking at this definition, actions that Israel has engaged in, such as destroying the homes of the families of terrorists IS collective punishment.
> 
> But there is a lack of moral clarity in the use of embargos, blockades, seiges and sanctions.  Are they collective punishment?
> 
> When do they become collective punishment?
> 
> Blockades and sanctions represent a form of "soft" pressure on a state to change some form of behavior.  That's better than bombing them.  So at some point collective punishment seems to be "ok" - western countries are using it on NK, it was used on Saddam's Iraq, pre-civil war Syria...and it HAS had some positive results - bringing people to the negotiating table for example.
> 
> At what point do blockades become morally unacceptable?
> 
> 
> 
> You have FAILED to answer my question. How else does Israel contain the rampant weapons shipments that are used to attack her?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> What does a farmer exporting strawberries have to do with weapons? Or a student going to college in the US or Europe have to do with weapons?
Click to expand...


Can one turn a fertilizer into fuel, or an explosive?


----------



## rylah

Humanity said:


> I really do not see that as an issue even if they did...



Oh boy the kid who calls everyone a lier doesn't have a problem with Palestinian lies.

PRICELESS.


----------



## rylah

Coyote said:


> Collective punishment, embargos, blockades, sanctions...
> 
> Collective Punishment
> *Collective punishment* is a form of retaliation whereby a suspected perpetrator's family members, friends, acquaintances, sect, neighbors or entire ethnic group is targeted. The punished group may often have no direct association with the other individuals or groups, or direct control over their actions. In times of war and armed conflict, collective punishment has resulted in atrocities, and is a violation of the laws of war and the Geneva Conventions.[1] Historically, occupying powers have used collective punishment to retaliate against and deter attacks on their forces by Resistance movements (such as destroying entire towns and villages which were believed to have harboured or aided such resistance movements).
> 
> Looking at this definition, actions that Israel has engaged in, such as destroying the homes of the families of terrorists IS collective punishment.
> 
> But there is a lack of moral clarity in the use of embargos, blockades, seiges and sanctions.  Are they collective punishment?
> 
> When do they become collective punishment?
> 
> Blockades and sanctions represent a form of "soft" pressure on a state to change some form of behavior.  That's better than bombing them.  So at some point collective punishment seems to be "ok" - western countries are using it on NK, it was used on Saddam's Iraq, pre-civil war Syria...and it HAS had some positive results - bringing people to the negotiating table for example.
> 
> At what point do blockades become morally unacceptable?



At the point of peace, or when the whole point is to cause death of non-militants.


----------



## rylah

P F Tinmore said:


> Correll said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Correll said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Next time try a real source.
> 
> Gazans leaving Gaza
> Gazans in Egypt.
> Gazans in Berlin
> 
> I still don't see the law that obligates a country to give entrance to subjects of an enemy state.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I wonder why the Egyptians so tightly control travel into and out of Gaza.
> 
> 
> Are they working with the Jews?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Egypt has it's own security interests.
> In one word- ARMS TRAFFICKING PREVENTION:
> 
> 
> Egypt also fights the Islamic state in Sinai, while their militants infiltrate Gaza.
> Just two weeks ago they jammed all their communication to spot the Islamists from Sinai in Gaza.
> 
> Not to mention that Egypt doesn't look all to well at Gaza becoming an Iranian proxy.
> It's a serious problem in the neighborhood.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Seems strange because Egypt and Hamas are fighting against the same people.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> That is true.
> 
> 
> It seems that despite that unifying enemy, that the people of Gaza are such that the Egyptians don't trust them to behave in a civilized fashion, if allowed to travel into, or even though their nation.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Do you think the couple billion dollars a year that the US has given to Egypt since the peace agreement has anything to do with that?
Click to expand...


Or Hamas affiliation with Muslim Brotherhood?


----------



## rylah

P F Tinmore said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Correll said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Billo_Really said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> They can leave and they do abroad. Gaza has no port,  Hamas refused it time and time again.
> Better tell me which law obligates any country to give entrance to a subject of an enemy state?
> 
> 
> 
> You're a fuckin' liar!
> 
> _[Israel] "...does not permit Palestinian, Israeli and foreign staff of human rights organizations to enter or leave Gaza. Israel controls Gaza’s airspace and territorial waters and has prevented the operation of an airport or seaport for the past two decades..."_
> 
> _"Israel’s restrictions on access to and from Gaza go far beyond what is permitted by international humanitarian law and human rights law. Because Israel continues to exercise control over significant aspects of life in Gaza, it continues to have obligations under the law of occupation in the areas in which it continues to exercise control..."_​
> Israel also shoots unarmed protesters.
> 
> Fuckers like you, act as though the Palestinians don't have the right to have rights.  Fuckers like you are cowards.  You never talk about the evil you bring to the table.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Next time try a real source.
> 
> Gazans leaving Gaza
> Gazans in Egypt.
> Gazans in Berlin
> 
> I still don't see the law that obligates a country to give entrance to subjects of an enemy state.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> I wonder why the Egyptians so tightly control travel into and out of Gaza.
> 
> 
> Are they working with the Jews?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Egypt has it's own security interests.
> In one word- ARMS TRAFFICKING PREVENTION:
> 
> 
> Egypt also fights the Islamic state in Sinai, while their militants infiltrate Gaza.
> Just two weeks ago they jammed all their communication to spot the Islamists from Sinai in Gaza.
> 
> Not to mention that Egypt doesn't look all to well at Gaza becoming an Iranian proxy.
> It's a serious problem in the neighborhood.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Seems strange because Egypt and Hamas are fighting against the same people.
Click to expand...


There's bigger and more serious threats for the countries in the neighborhood, I tried to bring this up to You but You seem to miss the extent of how this choice by Hamas has a negative impact on all Gazans, due to what happens in the Arab world:







Egypt was worried that Hamas control over Gaza would increase Iranian influence. 

Dude You don't even realize how suicidal it is...just imagine what happens at the crucial moment when the Arab world decides to confront Iran. *Believe me, although Gazans are my enemies - I don't wish for them what I see is coming.*


----------



## Shusha

rylah said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> Here's Murtaja using a drone during the march.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Good post, thanks.
> 
> Where it the violent riot that Israeli propaganda bullshit is always talking about?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> *In the rifles, molotovs, granades , IED's , calls for violence and attempt to breach the fence to act upon those calls by Hamas.*
> All of that has already been presented in many ways throughout the thread, I suggest You go back and read the thread - there's plenty of undeniable evidence to violent intent and action.
> 
> The question about why there's no footage of that in the Palestinian propaganda is ridiculous and naive -the same as asking why doesn't the criminal provide evidence to his crime.
> 
> The video in itself - contradicts the lies about the drone spread by Gazans for days.
> Lack of evidence, in the form of the bullet, footage of the incident itself, or a concrete proof by Hamas that he was killed by an Israeli  - IS TELLING.
> And even rise bigger questions about the possibility of direct Hamas involvement in his death, for propaganda purposes.
> 
> I'm yet rule this out with the way this case goes.
Click to expand...


Here are some odd things about this incident. 

One of the ones I noticed is the lack of blood in the photos but witnesses say there was blood in the ground. 

No matter how I look at this one something doesn't fit.


----------



## Coyote

rylah said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> Here's Murtaja using a drone during the march.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Good post, thanks.
> 
> Where it the violent riot that Israeli propaganda bullshit is always talking about?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> *In the rifles, molotovs, granades , IED's , calls for violence and attempt to breach the fence to act upon those calls by Hamas.*
> All of that has already been presented in many ways throughout the thread, I suggest You go back and read the thread - there's plenty of undeniable evidence to violent intent and action.
> 
> The question about why there's no footage of that in the Palestinian propaganda is ridiculous and naive -the same as asking why doesn't the criminal provide evidence to his crime.
> 
> The video in itself - contradicts the lies about the drone spread by Gazans for days.
> *Lack of evidence, in the form of the bullet, footage of the incident itself, or a concrete proof by Hamas that he was killed by an Israeli  - IS TELLING*.
> And even rise bigger questions about the possibility of direct Hamas involvement in his death, for propaganda purposes.
> 
> I'm yet rule this out with the way this case goes.
Click to expand...


Not really imo - Israel isn't denying they shot him, and they are spending energy shredding his reputation.


----------



## Coyote

rylah said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> Collective punishment, embargos, blockades, sanctions...
> 
> Collective Punishment
> *Collective punishment* is a form of retaliation whereby a suspected perpetrator's family members, friends, acquaintances, sect, neighbors or entire ethnic group is targeted. The punished group may often have no direct association with the other individuals or groups, or direct control over their actions. In times of war and armed conflict, collective punishment has resulted in atrocities, and is a violation of the laws of war and the Geneva Conventions.[1] Historically, occupying powers have used collective punishment to retaliate against and deter attacks on their forces by Resistance movements (such as destroying entire towns and villages which were believed to have harboured or aided such resistance movements).
> 
> Looking at this definition, actions that Israel has engaged in, such as destroying the homes of the families of terrorists IS collective punishment.
> 
> But there is a lack of moral clarity in the use of embargos, blockades, seiges and sanctions.  Are they collective punishment?
> 
> When do they become collective punishment?
> 
> Blockades and sanctions represent a form of "soft" pressure on a state to change some form of behavior.  That's better than bombing them.  So at some point collective punishment seems to be "ok" - western countries are using it on NK, it was used on Saddam's Iraq, pre-civil war Syria...and it HAS had some positive results - bringing people to the negotiating table for example.
> 
> At what point do blockades become morally unacceptable?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> At the point of peace, or when the whole point is to cause death of non-militants.
Click to expand...


But what if it IS causing the death of non-militants?  Even if that is not the point - it is the result?


----------



## Andylusion

rylah said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> Collective punishment, embargos, blockades, sanctions...
> 
> Collective Punishment
> *Collective punishment* is a form of retaliation whereby a suspected perpetrator's family members, friends, acquaintances, sect, neighbors or entire ethnic group is targeted. The punished group may often have no direct association with the other individuals or groups, or direct control over their actions. In times of war and armed conflict, collective punishment has resulted in atrocities, and is a violation of the laws of war and the Geneva Conventions.[1] Historically, occupying powers have used collective punishment to retaliate against and deter attacks on their forces by Resistance movements (such as destroying entire towns and villages which were believed to have harboured or aided such resistance movements).
> 
> Looking at this definition, actions that Israel has engaged in, such as destroying the homes of the families of terrorists IS collective punishment.
> 
> But there is a lack of moral clarity in the use of embargos, blockades, seiges and sanctions.  Are they collective punishment?
> 
> When do they become collective punishment?
> 
> Blockades and sanctions represent a form of "soft" pressure on a state to change some form of behavior.  That's better than bombing them.  So at some point collective punishment seems to be "ok" - western countries are using it on NK, it was used on Saddam's Iraq, pre-civil war Syria...and it HAS had some positive results - bringing people to the negotiating table for example.
> 
> At what point do blockades become morally unacceptable?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> At the point of peace, or when the whole point is to cause death of non-militants.
Click to expand...


If you throw a rock at a soldier, you should be shot.  You are a militant.

Honestly, if you are stupid enough to even taunt a member of the military who is armed with a firearm, and trained to kill people.... then honestly you should but shot just as a public service.  You are clearly holding society back with that level of stupidity.


----------



## Coyote

Shusha said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> Here's Murtaja using a drone during the march.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Good post, thanks.
> 
> Where it the violent riot that Israeli propaganda bullshit is always talking about?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> *In the rifles, molotovs, granades , IED's , calls for violence and attempt to breach the fence to act upon those calls by Hamas.*
> All of that has already been presented in many ways throughout the thread, I suggest You go back and read the thread - there's plenty of undeniable evidence to violent intent and action.
> 
> The question about why there's no footage of that in the Palestinian propaganda is ridiculous and naive -the same as asking why doesn't the criminal provide evidence to his crime.
> 
> The video in itself - contradicts the lies about the drone spread by Gazans for days.
> Lack of evidence, in the form of the bullet, footage of the incident itself, or a concrete proof by Hamas that he was killed by an Israeli  - IS TELLING.
> And even rise bigger questions about the possibility of direct Hamas involvement in his death, for propaganda purposes.
> 
> I'm yet rule this out with the way this case goes.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Here are some odd things about this incident.
> 
> One of the ones I noticed is the lack of blood in the photos but witnesses say there was blood in the ground.
> 
> No matter how I look at this one something doesn't fit.
Click to expand...


You can't tell anything from the pictures period - none of them, that I can find, show him where he was shot - they show him on some sort of wood plank or stretcher.  Unless you found one that shows him lying where he was shot?

On the other hand...pictures can offer insight into personality.


----------



## rylah

Shusha said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> Here's Murtaja using a drone during the march.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Good post, thanks.
> 
> Where it the violent riot that Israeli propaganda bullshit is always talking about?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> *In the rifles, molotovs, granades , IED's , calls for violence and attempt to breach the fence to act upon those calls by Hamas.*
> All of that has already been presented in many ways throughout the thread, I suggest You go back and read the thread - there's plenty of undeniable evidence to violent intent and action.
> 
> The question about why there's no footage of that in the Palestinian propaganda is ridiculous and naive -the same as asking why doesn't the criminal provide evidence to his crime.
> 
> The video in itself - contradicts the lies about the drone spread by Gazans for days.
> Lack of evidence, in the form of the bullet, footage of the incident itself, or a concrete proof by Hamas that he was killed by an Israeli  - IS TELLING.
> And even rise bigger questions about the possibility of direct Hamas involvement in his death, for propaganda purposes.
> 
> I'm yet rule this out with the way this case goes.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Here are some odd things about this incident.
> 
> One of the ones I noticed is the lack of blood in the photos but witnesses say there was blood in the ground.
> 
> No matter how I look at this one something doesn't fit.
Click to expand...


I've noticed people bringing this up about  the photos, however the video show *a bit*, and one can see a hole.
The lack of evidence look like in the story of Tamimi head injury - so much cameras, even Israeli leftists on the site -  but no video of the incident.

I always try to leave the benefit of a doubt for a period of time, but c'mon we know what we are dealing with - they clearly lied. If it passes another week without concrete evidence (bullet, body, footage) to the contrary I call fake...or Hamas.

Just too much indication leading that way, too much cameras on site and too little evidence.


----------



## P F Tinmore

Correll said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> RetiredGySgt said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> Collective punishment, embargos, blockades, sanctions...
> 
> Collective Punishment
> *Collective punishment* is a form of retaliation whereby a suspected perpetrator's family members, friends, acquaintances, sect, neighbors or entire ethnic group is targeted. The punished group may often have no direct association with the other individuals or groups, or direct control over their actions. In times of war and armed conflict, collective punishment has resulted in atrocities, and is a violation of the laws of war and the Geneva Conventions.[1] Historically, occupying powers have used collective punishment to retaliate against and deter attacks on their forces by Resistance movements (such as destroying entire towns and villages which were believed to have harboured or aided such resistance movements).
> 
> Looking at this definition, actions that Israel has engaged in, such as destroying the homes of the families of terrorists IS collective punishment.
> 
> But there is a lack of moral clarity in the use of embargos, blockades, seiges and sanctions.  Are they collective punishment?
> 
> When do they become collective punishment?
> 
> Blockades and sanctions represent a form of "soft" pressure on a state to change some form of behavior.  That's better than bombing them.  So at some point collective punishment seems to be "ok" - western countries are using it on NK, it was used on Saddam's Iraq, pre-civil war Syria...and it HAS had some positive results - bringing people to the negotiating table for example.
> 
> At what point do blockades become morally unacceptable?
> 
> 
> 
> You have FAILED to answer my question. How else does Israel contain the rampant weapons shipments that are used to attack her?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Weapons is just Israeli propaganda bullshit. For example the flotillas was inspected by the governments where loaded. Everyone was invited to inspect the cargo before departure. The flotilla offered to allow any international body to inspect while at sea.
> 
> Everybody knew there were no weapons. Israel attacked and killed people anyway.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> And if it was allowed to pass, then the blockade would become an illegal blockade.
> 
> 
> And the weapons would flow.
Click to expand...

It always was. What is your point.


----------



## P F Tinmore

rylah said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> RetiredGySgt said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> Collective punishment, embargos, blockades, sanctions...
> 
> Collective Punishment
> *Collective punishment* is a form of retaliation whereby a suspected perpetrator's family members, friends, acquaintances, sect, neighbors or entire ethnic group is targeted. The punished group may often have no direct association with the other individuals or groups, or direct control over their actions. In times of war and armed conflict, collective punishment has resulted in atrocities, and is a violation of the laws of war and the Geneva Conventions.[1] Historically, occupying powers have used collective punishment to retaliate against and deter attacks on their forces by Resistance movements (such as destroying entire towns and villages which were believed to have harboured or aided such resistance movements).
> 
> Looking at this definition, actions that Israel has engaged in, such as destroying the homes of the families of terrorists IS collective punishment.
> 
> But there is a lack of moral clarity in the use of embargos, blockades, seiges and sanctions.  Are they collective punishment?
> 
> When do they become collective punishment?
> 
> Blockades and sanctions represent a form of "soft" pressure on a state to change some form of behavior.  That's better than bombing them.  So at some point collective punishment seems to be "ok" - western countries are using it on NK, it was used on Saddam's Iraq, pre-civil war Syria...and it HAS had some positive results - bringing people to the negotiating table for example.
> 
> At what point do blockades become morally unacceptable?
> 
> 
> 
> You have FAILED to answer my question. How else does Israel contain the rampant weapons shipments that are used to attack her?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> What does a farmer exporting strawberries have to do with weapons? Or a student going to college in the US or Europe have to do with weapons?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Can one turn a fertilizer into fuel, or an explosive?
Click to expand...

Deflection.

What does that have to do with exports?


----------



## Correll

P F Tinmore said:


> Correll said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> RetiredGySgt said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> Collective punishment, embargos, blockades, sanctions...
> 
> Collective Punishment
> *Collective punishment* is a form of retaliation whereby a suspected perpetrator's family members, friends, acquaintances, sect, neighbors or entire ethnic group is targeted. The punished group may often have no direct association with the other individuals or groups, or direct control over their actions. In times of war and armed conflict, collective punishment has resulted in atrocities, and is a violation of the laws of war and the Geneva Conventions.[1] Historically, occupying powers have used collective punishment to retaliate against and deter attacks on their forces by Resistance movements (such as destroying entire towns and villages which were believed to have harboured or aided such resistance movements).
> 
> Looking at this definition, actions that Israel has engaged in, such as destroying the homes of the families of terrorists IS collective punishment.
> 
> But there is a lack of moral clarity in the use of embargos, blockades, seiges and sanctions.  Are they collective punishment?
> 
> When do they become collective punishment?
> 
> Blockades and sanctions represent a form of "soft" pressure on a state to change some form of behavior.  That's better than bombing them.  So at some point collective punishment seems to be "ok" - western countries are using it on NK, it was used on Saddam's Iraq, pre-civil war Syria...and it HAS had some positive results - bringing people to the negotiating table for example.
> 
> At what point do blockades become morally unacceptable?
> 
> 
> 
> You have FAILED to answer my question. How else does Israel contain the rampant weapons shipments that are used to attack her?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Weapons is just Israeli propaganda bullshit. For example the flotillas was inspected by the governments where loaded. Everyone was invited to inspect the cargo before departure. The flotilla offered to allow any international body to inspect while at sea.
> 
> Everybody knew there were no weapons. Israel attacked and killed people anyway.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> And if it was allowed to pass, then the blockade would become an illegal blockade.
> 
> 
> And the weapons would flow.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> It always was. What is your point.
Click to expand...


Not according to any international law I have ever read.


The humanitarian blockade was an attempt to force the blockade, using PR as it's weapon.


So that Israeli critics would be correct, in calling it illegal.


----------



## Shusha

Coyote said:


> ... when* does something go from sanctions/etc to collective punishment? *


*
*
Imo, restrictions of weapons and dual use items are a fair and reasonable blockade because they limit the need then for boots on the ground war. This is better and safer for civilians than an all out war. It's actually a limiting action by Israel. 

Restrictions on things like electricity or water in which there is an obligation to pay for those services are also fair if the recipient does not pay. However that has to be balanced with some level of humanitarian aid in more serious circumstances. Although Israel should not be obligated to provide free water or other services to neighbouring countries. 

Sanctions of comfort items, imo, might be considered a collective punishment. (Though not a harmful one). 

That's mjust my opinion in a nutshell.


----------



## Coyote

And a bit more about the journalist who was killed:  Yasser Murtaja becomes hero for journalists under fire

Watch this documentary and it quickly becomes obvious why Murtaja’s funeral was attended by hundreds of residents from all over Gaza, from the most senior political officials to the many children who loved to follow him around. The documentary showcases his skill as a videographer for Ain (“Eye”) Media. He risked entering Shujayea along with paramedics following the Israeli massacre in July 2014, despite their inability to obtain a permit from the invading army to enter the community. Eight-year-old Bisan Daher was trapped in the rubble of her home along with two other family members (five others already had died) and Murtaja documented the daring rescue. His close-in shots foreshadowed the courage he showed by photographing Palestinian protesters near the Israeli border (reportedly about 300 meters away).






It is rare to see coverage, on the Palestinians who get killed, that shows them as real people - beyond numbers.  

The article also states this, which might explain the lack of a lot of blood:
According to the Palestinian Center for Human Rights (PCHR), Murtaja was recording the events—while wearing a blue vest prominently labeled “press”—when he was hit in the abdomen by a sniper’s bullet, rupturing the main artery feeding his intestines; he was declared dead *after 12 hours of severe internal bleeding.
*
I wonder if he could have been saved if he had been gotten to a proper hospital quickly?


----------



## Coyote

Shusha said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> ... when* does something go from sanctions/etc to collective punishment? *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Imo, restrictions of weapons and dual use items are a fair and reasonable blockade because they limit the need then for boots on the ground war. This is better and safer for civilians than an all out war. It's actually a limiting action by Israel.
> 
> Restrictions on things like electricity or water in which there is an obligation to pay for those services are also fair if the recipient does not pay. However that has to be balanced with some level of humanitarian aid in more serious circumstances. Although Israel should not be obligated to provide free water or other services to neighbouring countries.
> 
> Sanctions of comfort items, imo, might be considered a collective punishment. (Though not a harmful one).
> 
> That's mjust my opinion in a nutshell.
Click to expand...


Thanks - and I actually agree with what you are saying.  Israel did also withold tax revenues - that could have paid for water and electricity could it not?


----------



## P F Tinmore

Correll said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Correll said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> RetiredGySgt said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> Collective punishment, embargos, blockades, sanctions...
> 
> Collective Punishment
> *Collective punishment* is a form of retaliation whereby a suspected perpetrator's family members, friends, acquaintances, sect, neighbors or entire ethnic group is targeted. The punished group may often have no direct association with the other individuals or groups, or direct control over their actions. In times of war and armed conflict, collective punishment has resulted in atrocities, and is a violation of the laws of war and the Geneva Conventions.[1] Historically, occupying powers have used collective punishment to retaliate against and deter attacks on their forces by Resistance movements (such as destroying entire towns and villages which were believed to have harboured or aided such resistance movements).
> 
> Looking at this definition, actions that Israel has engaged in, such as destroying the homes of the families of terrorists IS collective punishment.
> 
> But there is a lack of moral clarity in the use of embargos, blockades, seiges and sanctions.  Are they collective punishment?
> 
> When do they become collective punishment?
> 
> Blockades and sanctions represent a form of "soft" pressure on a state to change some form of behavior.  That's better than bombing them.  So at some point collective punishment seems to be "ok" - western countries are using it on NK, it was used on Saddam's Iraq, pre-civil war Syria...and it HAS had some positive results - bringing people to the negotiating table for example.
> 
> At what point do blockades become morally unacceptable?
> 
> 
> 
> You have FAILED to answer my question. How else does Israel contain the rampant weapons shipments that are used to attack her?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Weapons is just Israeli propaganda bullshit. For example the flotillas was inspected by the governments where loaded. Everyone was invited to inspect the cargo before departure. The flotilla offered to allow any international body to inspect while at sea.
> 
> Everybody knew there were no weapons. Israel attacked and killed people anyway.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> And if it was allowed to pass, then the blockade would become an illegal blockade.
> 
> 
> And the weapons would flow.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> It always was. What is your point.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Not according to any international law I have ever read.
> 
> 
> The humanitarian blockade was an attempt to force the blockade, using PR as it's weapon.
> 
> 
> So that Israeli critics would be correct, in calling it illegal.
Click to expand...




Correll said:


> Not according to any international law I have ever read.


----------



## Shusha

Coyote 

Forgot to add to my last post:

But if you are going to ask Israel not to use collective punishment in the form of sanctions, BDS has to go as well, don't you think?


----------



## rylah

Coyote said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> Here's Murtaja using a drone during the march.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Good post, thanks.
> 
> Where it the violent riot that Israeli propaganda bullshit is always talking about?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> *In the rifles, molotovs, granades , IED's , calls for violence and attempt to breach the fence to act upon those calls by Hamas.*
> All of that has already been presented in many ways throughout the thread, I suggest You go back and read the thread - there's plenty of undeniable evidence to violent intent and action.
> 
> The question about why there's no footage of that in the Palestinian propaganda is ridiculous and naive -the same as asking why doesn't the criminal provide evidence to his crime.
> 
> The video in itself - contradicts the lies about the drone spread by Gazans for days.
> Lack of evidence, in the form of the bullet, footage of the incident itself, or a concrete proof by Hamas that he was killed by an Israeli  - IS TELLING.
> And even rise bigger questions about the possibility of direct Hamas involvement in his death, for propaganda purposes.
> 
> I'm yet rule this out with the way this case goes.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Here are some odd things about this incident.
> 
> One of the ones I noticed is the lack of blood in the photos but witnesses say there was blood in the ground.
> 
> No matter how I look at this one something doesn't fit.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You can't tell anything from the pictures period - none of them, that I can find, show him where he was shot - they show him on some sort of wood plank or stretcher.  Unless you found one that shows him lying where he was shot?
> 
> On the other hand...pictures can offer insight into personality.
Click to expand...

I'm with You on the personality - I see his eyes.

However we live in a real world of experience. We know the fabrications, we know the facts that we discussed about his conduct, self-identification and the quality of reports about his conduct, and we know the well organized propaganda.

I'm sorry Coyote if it saddens You, but many detective stories lead to pretty criminals.
And since I've seen the drone footage, and seen how they try to focus all the march on him to deflect from the violence - I just cannot leave it like that when so much leads to an unexpected direction. This is just unfair to our soldiers who protect us right now laying on that sand sweaty, tired and miles from home.

Especially when they show an amount of restrain and professionalism that they do.
The easiest thing here is to automatically blame our boys - that's not fair.

As an Israeli I can't leave this story like that - if I didn't see the video, maybe, but not since.


----------



## rylah

Coyote said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> Here's Murtaja using a drone during the march.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Good post, thanks.
> 
> Where it the violent riot that Israeli propaganda bullshit is always talking about?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> *In the rifles, molotovs, granades , IED's , calls for violence and attempt to breach the fence to act upon those calls by Hamas.*
> All of that has already been presented in many ways throughout the thread, I suggest You go back and read the thread - there's plenty of undeniable evidence to violent intent and action.
> 
> The question about why there's no footage of that in the Palestinian propaganda is ridiculous and naive -the same as asking why doesn't the criminal provide evidence to his crime.
> 
> The video in itself - contradicts the lies about the drone spread by Gazans for days.
> *Lack of evidence, in the form of the bullet, footage of the incident itself, or a concrete proof by Hamas that he was killed by an Israeli  - IS TELLING*.
> And even rise bigger questions about the possibility of direct Hamas involvement in his death, for propaganda purposes.
> 
> I'm yet rule this out with the way this case goes.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Not really imo - Israel isn't denying they shot him, and they are spending energy shredding his reputation.
Click to expand...


Israel is neither confirming.
Frankly aside form undocumented claims about his salary or degree in Hamas - I haven't seen anything that was non-factual.

Again until yesterday I could see all that as slander - not anymore. I'm not concluding yet, I'm just investigating - the least fair thing we can do.

And I think it's a healthy situation that You take his side and we can actually discuss rather than blame. This way we can reach clearer conclusions, and check if both our arguments stand the test. That's fair at least


----------



## rylah

P F Tinmore said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> RetiredGySgt said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> Collective punishment, embargos, blockades, sanctions...
> 
> Collective Punishment
> *Collective punishment* is a form of retaliation whereby a suspected perpetrator's family members, friends, acquaintances, sect, neighbors or entire ethnic group is targeted. The punished group may often have no direct association with the other individuals or groups, or direct control over their actions. In times of war and armed conflict, collective punishment has resulted in atrocities, and is a violation of the laws of war and the Geneva Conventions.[1] Historically, occupying powers have used collective punishment to retaliate against and deter attacks on their forces by Resistance movements (such as destroying entire towns and villages which were believed to have harboured or aided such resistance movements).
> 
> Looking at this definition, actions that Israel has engaged in, such as destroying the homes of the families of terrorists IS collective punishment.
> 
> But there is a lack of moral clarity in the use of embargos, blockades, seiges and sanctions.  Are they collective punishment?
> 
> When do they become collective punishment?
> 
> Blockades and sanctions represent a form of "soft" pressure on a state to change some form of behavior.  That's better than bombing them.  So at some point collective punishment seems to be "ok" - western countries are using it on NK, it was used on Saddam's Iraq, pre-civil war Syria...and it HAS had some positive results - bringing people to the negotiating table for example.
> 
> At what point do blockades become morally unacceptable?
> 
> 
> 
> You have FAILED to answer my question. How else does Israel contain the rampant weapons shipments that are used to attack her?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> What does a farmer exporting strawberries have to do with weapons? Or a student going to college in the US or Europe have to do with weapons?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Can one turn a fertilizer into fuel, or an explosive?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Deflection.
> 
> What does that have to do with exports?
Click to expand...


How does one grow fruit on for export quantity without chemicals? Do they have a plant for that?

I'm just guessing here, I never checked this thing out.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot

Billo_Really said:


> Toddsterpatriot said:
> 
> 
> 
> I agree, the disease of radical Islam must be eradicated.
> 
> 
> 
> The disease, is the Israeli occupation.
Click to expand...


They moved out of Gaza, it was in all the papers.


----------



## rylah

Coyote said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> Collective punishment, embargos, blockades, sanctions...
> 
> Collective Punishment
> *Collective punishment* is a form of retaliation whereby a suspected perpetrator's family members, friends, acquaintances, sect, neighbors or entire ethnic group is targeted. The punished group may often have no direct association with the other individuals or groups, or direct control over their actions. In times of war and armed conflict, collective punishment has resulted in atrocities, and is a violation of the laws of war and the Geneva Conventions.[1] Historically, occupying powers have used collective punishment to retaliate against and deter attacks on their forces by Resistance movements (such as destroying entire towns and villages which were believed to have harboured or aided such resistance movements).
> 
> Looking at this definition, actions that Israel has engaged in, such as destroying the homes of the families of terrorists IS collective punishment.
> 
> But there is a lack of moral clarity in the use of embargos, blockades, seiges and sanctions.  Are they collective punishment?
> 
> When do they become collective punishment?
> 
> Blockades and sanctions represent a form of "soft" pressure on a state to change some form of behavior.  That's better than bombing them.  So at some point collective punishment seems to be "ok" - western countries are using it on NK, it was used on Saddam's Iraq, pre-civil war Syria...and it HAS had some positive results - bringing people to the negotiating table for example.
> 
> At what point do blockades become morally unacceptable?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> At the point of peace, or when the whole point is to cause death of non-militants.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> But what if it IS causing the death of non-militants?  Even if that is not the point - it is the result?
Click to expand...


Can You bing a specific case?


----------



## Shusha

Coyote said:


> And a bit more about the journalist who was killed:  Yasser Murtaja becomes hero for journalists under fire
> 
> Watch this documentary and it quickly becomes obvious why Murtaja’s funeral was attended by hundreds of residents from all over Gaza, from the most senior political officials to the many children who loved to follow him around. The documentary showcases his skill as a videographer for Ain (“Eye”) Media. He risked entering Shujayea along with paramedics following the Israeli massacre in July 2014, despite their inability to obtain a permit from the invading army to enter the community. Eight-year-old Bisan Daher was trapped in the rubble of her home along with two other family members (five others already had died) and Murtaja documented the daring rescue. His close-in shots foreshadowed the courage he showed by photographing Palestinian protesters near the Israeli border (reportedly about 300 meters away).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It is rare to see coverage, on the Palestinians who get killed, that shows them as real people - beyond numbers.
> 
> The article also states this, which might explain the lack of a lot of blood:
> According to the Palestinian Center for Human Rights (PCHR), Murtaja was recording the events—while wearing a blue vest prominently labeled “press”—when he was hit in the abdomen by a sniper’s bullet, rupturing the main artery feeding his intestines; he was declared dead *after 12 hours of severe internal bleeding.
> *
> I wonder if he could have been saved if he had been gotten to a proper hospital quickly?



Yes. That might explain the lack of blood. But then you have to consider why the witnesses said there was blood. It's just odd. 

I am certain they took him to a hospital quickly. And a proper one. But they may have been unable to control the bleeding.


----------



## Correll

P F Tinmore said:


> Correll said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Correll said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> RetiredGySgt said:
> 
> 
> 
> You have FAILED to answer my question. How else does Israel contain the rampant weapons shipments that are used to attack her?
> 
> 
> 
> Weapons is just Israeli propaganda bullshit. For example the flotillas was inspected by the governments where loaded. Everyone was invited to inspect the cargo before departure. The flotilla offered to allow any international body to inspect while at sea.
> 
> Everybody knew there were no weapons. Israel attacked and killed people anyway.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> And if it was allowed to pass, then the blockade would become an illegal blockade.
> 
> 
> And the weapons would flow.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> It always was. What is your point.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Not according to any international law I have ever read.
> 
> 
> The humanitarian blockade was an attempt to force the blockade, using PR as it's weapon.
> 
> 
> So that Israeli critics would be correct, in calling it illegal.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Correll said:
> 
> 
> 
> Not according to any international law I have ever read.
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...



I believe this is what I researched when the blockade attempt was made a couple of years ago.


Treaties, States parties, and Commentaries - San Remo Manual on Armed Conflicts at Sea, 1994 - 93--108 - METHODS OF WARFARE


Blockade

93. A blockade shall be declared and notified to all belligerents and neutral States.

94. The declaration shall specify the commencement, duration, location, and extent of the blockade and the period within which vessels of neutral States may leave the blockaded coastline.

95. A blockade must be effective. The question whether a blockade is effective is a question of fact.

96. The force maintaining the blockade may be stationed at a distance determined by military requirements.

97. A blockade may be enforced and maintained by a combination of legitimate methods and means of warfare provided this combination does not result in acts inconsistent with the rules set out in this document.

98 Merchant vessels believed on reasonable grounds to be breaching a blockade may be captured. Merchant vessels which, after prior warning, clearly resist capture may be attacked.

99. A blockade must not bar access to the ports and coasts of neutral States.

100. A blockade must be applied impartially to the vessels of all States.

101 The cessation, temporary lifting, re-establishment, extension or other alteration of a blockade must be declared and notified as in paragraphs 93 and 94.

102 The declaration or establishment of a blockade is prohibited if:

(a) it has the sole purpose of starving the civilian population or denying it other objects essential for its survival;or
(b) the damage to the civilian population is, or may be expected to be, excessive in relation to the concrete and direct military advantage anticipated from the blockade.

103. If the civilian population of the blockaded territory is inadequately provided with food and other objects essential for its survival, the blockading party must provide for free passage of such foodstuffs and other essential supplies, subject to:

(a) the right to prescribe the technical arrangements, including search, under which such passage is permitted; and
(b) the condition that the distribution of such supplies shall be made under the local supervision of a Protecting Power or a humanitarian organization which offers guarantees of impartiality, such as the International Committee of the Red Cross.

104. The blockading belligerent shall allow the passage of medical supplies for the civilian population or for the wounded and sick members of armed forces, subject to the right to prescribe technical arrangements, including search, under which such passage is permitted.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot

Billo_Really said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> Or the cure, and Gaza is not occupied...but keep drinking don't let me bother You.
> 
> 
> 
> If its not occupied, then why can't they leave?  Why can't vessels bring in humanitarian aid to its ports, if it isn't occupied?
> 
> You don't have to have a standing army to satisfy the definition of an "occupation".
Click to expand...

*
If its not occupied, then why can't they leave?
*
Nobody wants them.


----------



## rylah

Andylusion said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> Collective punishment, embargos, blockades, sanctions...
> 
> Collective Punishment
> *Collective punishment* is a form of retaliation whereby a suspected perpetrator's family members, friends, acquaintances, sect, neighbors or entire ethnic group is targeted. The punished group may often have no direct association with the other individuals or groups, or direct control over their actions. In times of war and armed conflict, collective punishment has resulted in atrocities, and is a violation of the laws of war and the Geneva Conventions.[1] Historically, occupying powers have used collective punishment to retaliate against and deter attacks on their forces by Resistance movements (such as destroying entire towns and villages which were believed to have harboured or aided such resistance movements).
> 
> Looking at this definition, actions that Israel has engaged in, such as destroying the homes of the families of terrorists IS collective punishment.
> 
> But there is a lack of moral clarity in the use of embargos, blockades, seiges and sanctions.  Are they collective punishment?
> 
> When do they become collective punishment?
> 
> Blockades and sanctions represent a form of "soft" pressure on a state to change some form of behavior.  That's better than bombing them.  So at some point collective punishment seems to be "ok" - western countries are using it on NK, it was used on Saddam's Iraq, pre-civil war Syria...and it HAS had some positive results - bringing people to the negotiating table for example.
> 
> At what point do blockades become morally unacceptable?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> At the point of peace, or when the whole point is to cause death of non-militants.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> If you throw a rock at a soldier, you should be shot.  You are a militant.
> 
> Honestly, if you are stupid enough to even taunt a member of the military who is armed with a firearm, and trained to kill people.... then honestly you should but shot just as a public service.  You are clearly holding society back with that level of stupidity.
Click to expand...


Basically I agree.
My impression is that  we were not  discussing combat in battlefield.
There I expect zero tolerance for Islamo-Nazi Swastika bearers. ZERO.

My family on both sides fought the Fascist on 2 continents, not to see Israel give in to them EVER AGAIN. Enough is enough. Can't even imagine what went through our boy's minds when they saw that Swastika waved at Israel...

Hashem will pay them all, may their filthy Amalekite name be forever gone.


----------



## P F Tinmore

rylah said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> RetiredGySgt said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> Collective punishment, embargos, blockades, sanctions...
> 
> Collective Punishment
> *Collective punishment* is a form of retaliation whereby a suspected perpetrator's family members, friends, acquaintances, sect, neighbors or entire ethnic group is targeted. The punished group may often have no direct association with the other individuals or groups, or direct control over their actions. In times of war and armed conflict, collective punishment has resulted in atrocities, and is a violation of the laws of war and the Geneva Conventions.[1] Historically, occupying powers have used collective punishment to retaliate against and deter attacks on their forces by Resistance movements (such as destroying entire towns and villages which were believed to have harboured or aided such resistance movements).
> 
> Looking at this definition, actions that Israel has engaged in, such as destroying the homes of the families of terrorists IS collective punishment.
> 
> But there is a lack of moral clarity in the use of embargos, blockades, seiges and sanctions.  Are they collective punishment?
> 
> When do they become collective punishment?
> 
> Blockades and sanctions represent a form of "soft" pressure on a state to change some form of behavior.  That's better than bombing them.  So at some point collective punishment seems to be "ok" - western countries are using it on NK, it was used on Saddam's Iraq, pre-civil war Syria...and it HAS had some positive results - bringing people to the negotiating table for example.
> 
> At what point do blockades become morally unacceptable?
> 
> 
> 
> You have FAILED to answer my question. How else does Israel contain the rampant weapons shipments that are used to attack her?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> What does a farmer exporting strawberries have to do with weapons? Or a student going to college in the US or Europe have to do with weapons?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Can one turn a fertilizer into fuel, or an explosive?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Deflection.
> 
> What does that have to do with exports?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> How does one grow fruit on for export quantity without chemicals? Do they have a plant for that?
> 
> I'm just guessing here, I never checked this thing out.
Click to expand...

The agricultural ministry in Gaza has been working on organic farming for over a decade. (alternates to chemicals)


----------



## RoccoR

RE:  Israeli forces shoot unarmed protesters from across Gaza security fence, killing at least 15
※→  Coyote, et al,

Specifically:   Terrorist is a crime.  It is a variation of coercion.  Lying about knowledge of such activity is also a criminal offense in most sophisticated countries.



Coyote said:


> I'm not sure how that relates to what I said Rocco, because I am not talking about confiscation for criminal purposes.  I'm talking about destroying the homes of a terrorist's family - who have not engaged in criminal behavior - as punishment.


*(COMMENT)*

The intent of actions plans, such as the one I cited in Posting #1027, outline its role under the Charter, including actions related to international peace and security.

I don't know the background of every single Residential Confiscation _(and probable destruction as the final disposition)_ that you may be aware, but the forfeiture of such residences has what is often described as a chain of support provided by close friends and family.  And intent and purpose of the execution of measures such as this are to implement action that will have the greatest potential in the *"prevention"* of Jihadism, Deadly Fedayeen Action, Hostile Insurgency Operations, Radicalized Islamic Behaviors, and Asymmetric Violence.

Not every nation in the world has laws and protections like that of the US.  Certainly, the MiddelEast nations do not grant such latitude.  But almost every nation in the Middle East takes a dim view and often take punitive action against those that are found guilty of:

1)  knowingly and willfully; 
2) make any materially false, fictitious or fraudulent statement or representation; 
3) in any matter within the jurisdiction​
I am personally unaware of any family tree that suffered the complete destruction of every single residence associated with that family tree in connection with providing material support to Jihadist, the Fedayeen, Hostile Insurgents, Radicalized Islamic Followers, and Asymmetric fighters. Like the US, if the evidence leads backwards through the family tree and each branch makes false, fictitious or fraudulent statements, the potential for destruction grows with each fabrication.

If a series of family members make false, fictitious or fraudulent statements pertaining to a family member who has engaged in such criminal activity _(terrorism)_ → they _(as well)_ are engaged in criminal behavior at their own peril.

Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## rylah

P F Tinmore said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> RetiredGySgt said:
> 
> 
> 
> You have FAILED to answer my question. How else does Israel contain the rampant weapons shipments that are used to attack her?
> 
> 
> 
> What does a farmer exporting strawberries have to do with weapons? Or a student going to college in the US or Europe have to do with weapons?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Can one turn a fertilizer into fuel, or an explosive?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Deflection.
> 
> What does that have to do with exports?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> How does one grow fruit on for export quantity without chemicals? Do they have a plant for that?
> 
> I'm just guessing here, I never checked this thing out.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The agricultural ministry in Gaza has been working on organic farming for over a decade. (alternates to chemicals)
Click to expand...


Then I have to research.
I know that one can make fuel out of oranges, apples...etc.

Haven't looked into the subject.

P F Tinmore bring me a case.


----------



## MaryL

montelatici said:


> Nice people those Israeli Jews.
> 
> Israeli forces shoot unarmed protesters from across Gaza security fence, killing at least 15


Forgive me if i find this thread a tad ...fishy. I think there is a little bit more to this than the OP would have us  believe, isn't there? So Israeli Security forces got a wild notion to just shoot up a crowd  for no reason whatsoever.  Just like that.  Please, what is the part you left out?


----------



## rylah

P F Tinmore  what about exports through Egypt?


----------



## RetiredGySgt

MaryL said:


> montelatici said:
> 
> 
> 
> Nice people those Israeli Jews.
> 
> Israeli forces shoot unarmed protesters from across Gaza security fence, killing at least 15
> 
> 
> 
> Forgive me if i find this thread a tad ...fishy. I think there is a little bit more to this than the OP would have us  believe, isn't there? So Israeli Security forces got a wild notion to just shoot up a crowd  for no reason whatsoever.  Just like that.  Please, what is the part you left out?
Click to expand...

If you had read the thread you would see that the Pro Terrorist side leaves out the fact that every person killed was a military man and was armed with Molotov cocktails, slingshots or other implements of war or they were attempting to breach the fence.


----------



## Coyote

RoccoR said:


> RE:  Israeli forces shoot unarmed protesters from across Gaza security fence, killing at least 15
> ※→  Coyote, et al,
> 
> Specifically:   Terrorist is a crime.  It is a variation of coercion.  Lying about knowledge of such activity is also a criminal offense in most sophisticated countries.
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not sure how that relates to what I said Rocco, because I am not talking about confiscation for criminal purposes.  I'm talking about destroying the homes of a terrorist's family - who have not engaged in criminal behavior - as punishment.
> 
> 
> 
> *(COMMENT)*
> 
> The intent of actions plans, such as the one I cited in Posting #1027, outline its role under the Charter, including actions related to international peace and security.
> 
> I don't know the background of every single Residential Confiscation _(and probable destruction as the final disposition)_ that you may be aware, but the forfeiture of such residences has what is often described as a chain of support provided by close friends and family.  And intent and purpose of the execution of measures such as this are to implement action that will have the greatest potential in the *"prevention"* of Jihadism, Deadly Fedayeen Action, Hostile Insurgency Operations, Radicalized Islamic Behaviors, and Asymmetric Violence.
> 
> Not every nation in the world has laws and protections like that of the US.  Certainly, the MiddelEast nations do not grant such latitude.  But almost every nation in the Middle East takes a dim view and often take punitive action against those that are found guilty of:
> 
> 1)  knowingly and willfully;
> 2) make any materially false, fictitious or fraudulent statement or representation;
> 3) in any matter within the jurisdiction​
> I am personally unaware of any family tree that suffered the complete destruction of every single residence associated with that family tree in connection with providing material support to Jihadist, the Fedayeen, Hostile Insurgents, Radicalized Islamic Followers, and Asymmetric fighters. Like the US, if the evidence leads backwards through the family tree and each branch makes false, fictitious or fraudulent statements, the potential for destruction grows with each fabrication.
> 
> If a series of family members make false, fictitious or fraudulent statements pertaining to a family member who has engaged in such criminal activity _(terrorism)_ → they _(as well)_ are engaged in criminal behavior at their own peril.
> 
> Most Respectfully,
> R
Click to expand...



Well...let me ask you this then.

There have been Israeli extremists who have been found guilty of terrorism (two incidents come to mind - the firebombing of a Palestinian home, and the kidnapping, setting on fire and murder of a Palestinian youth.  In the former, there had to have been knowledge and protection by the families, because it took considerable time to find the guilty youths.

Were any homes demolished?


----------



## Coyote

RetiredGySgt said:


> MaryL said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> montelatici said:
> 
> 
> 
> Nice people those Israeli Jews.
> 
> Israeli forces shoot unarmed protesters from across Gaza security fence, killing at least 15
> 
> 
> 
> Forgive me if i find this thread a tad ...fishy. I think there is a little bit more to this than the OP would have us  believe, isn't there? So Israeli Security forces got a wild notion to just shoot up a crowd  for no reason whatsoever.  Just like that.  Please, what is the part you left out?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> If you had read the thread you would see that the Pro Terrorist side leaves out the fact that every person killed was a military man and was armed with Molotov cocktails, slingshots or other implements of war or they were attempting to breach the fence.
Click to expand...


Wrong.

Not every person was.


----------



## rylah

Coyote said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> ... when* does something go from sanctions/etc to collective punishment? *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Imo, restrictions of weapons and dual use items are a fair and reasonable blockade because they limit the need then for boots on the ground war. This is better and safer for civilians than an all out war. It's actually a limiting action by Israel.
> 
> Restrictions on things like electricity or water in which there is an obligation to pay for those services are also fair if the recipient does not pay. However that has to be balanced with some level of humanitarian aid in more serious circumstances. Although Israel should not be obligated to provide free water or other services to neighbouring countries.
> 
> Sanctions of comfort items, imo, might be considered a collective punishment. (Though not a harmful one).
> 
> That's mjust my opinion in a nutshell.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Thanks - and I actually agree with what you are saying.  Israel did also withold tax revenues - that could have paid for water and electricity could it not?
Click to expand...


If I remember correctly - it was the exact purpose. Palestinians had a huge part of the debt erased, the rest was paid with taxes.


----------



## Coyote

Shusha said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> And a bit more about the journalist who was killed:  Yasser Murtaja becomes hero for journalists under fire
> 
> Watch this documentary and it quickly becomes obvious why Murtaja’s funeral was attended by hundreds of residents from all over Gaza, from the most senior political officials to the many children who loved to follow him around. The documentary showcases his skill as a videographer for Ain (“Eye”) Media. He risked entering Shujayea along with paramedics following the Israeli massacre in July 2014, despite their inability to obtain a permit from the invading army to enter the community. Eight-year-old Bisan Daher was trapped in the rubble of her home along with two other family members (five others already had died) and Murtaja documented the daring rescue. His close-in shots foreshadowed the courage he showed by photographing Palestinian protesters near the Israeli border (reportedly about 300 meters away).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It is rare to see coverage, on the Palestinians who get killed, that shows them as real people - beyond numbers.
> 
> The article also states this, which might explain the lack of a lot of blood:
> According to the Palestinian Center for Human Rights (PCHR), Murtaja was recording the events—while wearing a blue vest prominently labeled “press”—when he was hit in the abdomen by a sniper’s bullet, rupturing the main artery feeding his intestines; he was declared dead *after 12 hours of severe internal bleeding.
> *
> I wonder if he could have been saved if he had been gotten to a proper hospital quickly?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes. That might explain the lack of blood. But then you have to consider why the witnesses said there was blood. It's just odd.
> 
> I am certain they took him to a hospital quickly. And a proper one. But they may have been unable to control the bleeding.
Click to expand...


I don't know enough about medical stuff...but bleeding for 12 hours sounds bad, was there an ambulance even?  Ugh...we'll never really know...it's just tragic


----------



## RetiredGySgt

Coyote said:


> RetiredGySgt said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MaryL said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> montelatici said:
> 
> 
> 
> Nice people those Israeli Jews.
> 
> Israeli forces shoot unarmed protesters from across Gaza security fence, killing at least 15
> 
> 
> 
> Forgive me if i find this thread a tad ...fishy. I think there is a little bit more to this than the OP would have us  believe, isn't there? So Israeli Security forces got a wild notion to just shoot up a crowd  for no reason whatsoever.  Just like that.  Please, what is the part you left out?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> If you had read the thread you would see that the Pro Terrorist side leaves out the fact that every person killed was a military man and was armed with Molotov cocktails, slingshots or other implements of war or they were attempting to breach the fence.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Wrong.
> 
> Not every person was.
Click to expand...

I see you answer this post how about explaining to us what Israel should do OTHER than a blockade to stop weapons? Or to cowardly for that? As for the reporter he was flying a drone giving information to the terrorists.


----------



## MaryL

RetiredGySgt said:


> MaryL said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> montelatici said:
> 
> 
> 
> Nice people those Israeli Jews.
> 
> Israeli forces shoot unarmed protesters from across Gaza security fence, killing at least 15
> 
> 
> 
> Forgive me if i find this thread a tad ...fishy. I think there is a little bit more to this than the OP would have us  believe, isn't there? So Israeli Security forces got a wild notion to just shoot up a crowd  for no reason whatsoever.  Just like that.  Please, what is the part you left out?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> If you had read the thread you would see that the Pro Terrorist side leaves out the fact that every person killed was a military man and was armed with Molotov cocktails, slingshots or other implements of war or they were attempting to breach the fence.
Click to expand...

 I read between the lines at the title of this thread. I am in awe here, some people want history to repeat itself.


----------



## rylah

RetiredGySgt said:


> MaryL said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> montelatici said:
> 
> 
> 
> Nice people those Israeli Jews.
> 
> Israeli forces shoot unarmed protesters from across Gaza security fence, killing at least 15
> 
> 
> 
> Forgive me if i find this thread a tad ...fishy. I think there is a little bit more to this than the OP would have us  believe, isn't there? So Israeli Security forces got a wild notion to just shoot up a crowd  for no reason whatsoever.  Just like that.  Please, what is the part you left out?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> If you had read the thread you would see that the Pro Terrorist side leaves out the fact that every person killed was a military man and was armed with Molotov cocktails, slingshots or other implements of war or they were attempting to breach the fence.
Click to expand...


I have to say that I'm with Coyote here, 100% of accuracy is impossible, especially with all the smoke and mess going there.
What I will never agree is that our army's purpose it to just shoot unrelated people. In a country where soldiers are constantly followed by cameras, and they jail a soldier who finished a terrorist lying on the ground after he  just stabbed another soldier... let's just say it's unlikely because we fight 2 wars at the same time...

The Russians and the Syrians in the north on the other hand... gas 'em, bomb em out existence - all You hear is a yawn...no Jews to blame.


----------



## theliq

fncceo said:


> theliq said:
> 
> 
> 
> .I am essentially here to kick Zionist Ass
> 
> 
> 
> 
> People have tried that before ... didn't work out for them.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And they had a state-of-the-art air force.
Click to expand...

You Boasting Pharisee,You'll Never Conquer Me


----------



## rylah

theliq said:


> fncceo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> theliq said:
> 
> 
> 
> .I am essentially here to kick Zionist Ass
> 
> 
> 
> 
> People have tried that before ... didn't work out for them.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And they had a state-of-the-art air force.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You Boasting Pharisee,You'll Never Conquer Me
Click to expand...


Who needs Australia...there's no Yerushalaim.

All kangaroos are yours


----------



## theliq

Shusha said:


> Wait. Hold on here. Isn't calling to rip the hearts out of Jews/Israelis "collective punishment"?


Idiot


----------



## Indeependent

Humanity said:


> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Humanity said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ILOVEISRAEL said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Humanity said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> 
> Wait. Hold on here. Isn't calling to rip the hearts out of Jews/Israelis "collective punishment"?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That is just dumb!
> 
> Talk about clutching at straws to try and wriggle out of a losing argument!
> 
> The blockade IS collective punishment, no matter how hard you try to argue against that, it is collective punishment!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> This is just dumb!
> 
> Talk about clutching at straws to try and wiggle out of a losing argument.  !!
> Smuggling weapons into Gaza, shooting Rockets, etc. etc. to kill innocent civilians is O.K. With you? Of course it is
> Israel is supposed to single out the perpetrators from the “ innocent civilians?”
> That is just dumb!!!!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Oh no, another dumbass fucking idiot...
> 
> How about you try and address the topic or STFU...
> 
> The conversation is about "collective punishment"... Do you have issues with reading/comprehension/English?
> 
> Yours, and many other Team Israels attempts to deflect from this FACT is very telling of your mentality, lack of understanding and your outright belligerence ...
> 
> Now, do you want to comment on "collective punishment" or not? If you don't it's ok, I wouldn't want you to hurt yourself!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Visit Gaza lately wearing a cross?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yep. You?
> 
> Want to discuss collective punishment or you just a Team Israel troll like the rest of them?
Click to expand...

In other words, you possess zero context.
Elections and murder have consequences.
You kill for sport, you die.


----------



## Billo_Really

rylah said:


> By the response I read on Arab social media, here as well - the notion is towards Israel.
> 
> The Swastika on their flag said it all, and the open call for murder also didn't go unnoticed.
> 
> Gazans are their own worst enemies.


If someone was shooting your family members in the streets, what would you do?  Invite them to dinner?  Come over for some falafal.


----------



## rylah

Indeependent said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Humanity said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ILOVEISRAEL said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Humanity said:
> 
> 
> 
> What have you been smoking?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You’re the one who has been smoking and drinking. The Palestinians never threw Malatov Cocktails, etc.etc. At Israeli Soldiers?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Another fail...
> 
> The conversation is "collective punishment" by use of an illegal blockade...
> 
> Put that bottle of JD down, put that joint down and see if you can actually join in the conversation. It's ok if you can't, we understand that it may be a little over your head... I'm sure one more spliff will help!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> How old were you in 1998?
> Were you even born?
> How come the Western Gazans don’t help their terrorist “brothers” in Eastern Gaza?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Never heard about that. Just to think that You live overseas and know more about Gaza than me living here...
> 
> Sounds interesting, link me.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Mansions of the West Bank and Gaza
Click to expand...


Wonder just how many of those belong to Hamas filth...


----------



## rylah

Billo_Really said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> By the response I read on Arab social media, here as well - the notion is towards Israel.
> 
> The Swastika on their flag said it all, and the open call for murder also didn't go unnoticed.
> 
> Gazans are their own worst enemies.
> 
> 
> 
> If someone was shooting your family members in the streets, what would you do?  Invite them to dinner?  Come over for some falafal.
Click to expand...


If someone waved a Swastika at me and said "I wanna reap the hearts of Jews away on the way to Jerusalem"....that wouldn't leave much options.

Real danger -real response. Historic justice.


----------



## theliq

rylah said:


> theliq said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> fncceo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> theliq said:
> 
> 
> 
> .I am essentially here to kick Zionist Ass
> 
> 
> 
> 
> People have tried that before ... didn't work out for them.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And they had a state-of-the-art air force.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You Boasting Pharisee,You'll Never Conquer Me
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Who needs Australia...there's no Yerushalaim.
> 
> All kangaroos are yours
Click to expand...

Trouble is we are too nice and Australia is Yerushalaim A CASH ONE TO LEPERS LIKE NIT AND YAR WHO?....Who came BEGGING LIKE A GYPO for cash.....So don't talk TRASH to me rylah,,,,I KNOW IT ALL,THE LYING AND THE DECIET OF THE ZOINIST SYNTHETIC JEW<TERRORISTS....YOU WEAR A PLASTIC SMILE BECAUSE YOU ARE SYNTHETIC


----------



## Coyote

RetiredGySgt said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> RetiredGySgt said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MaryL said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> montelatici said:
> 
> 
> 
> Nice people those Israeli Jews.
> 
> Israeli forces shoot unarmed protesters from across Gaza security fence, killing at least 15
> 
> 
> 
> Forgive me if i find this thread a tad ...fishy. I think there is a little bit more to this than the OP would have us  believe, isn't there? So Israeli Security forces got a wild notion to just shoot up a crowd  for no reason whatsoever.  Just like that.  Please, what is the part you left out?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> If you had read the thread you would see that the Pro Terrorist side leaves out the fact that every person killed was a military man and was armed with Molotov cocktails, slingshots or other implements of war or they were attempting to breach the fence.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Wrong.
> 
> Not every person was.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I see you answer this post how about explaining to us what Israel should do OTHER than a blockade to stop weapons? Or to cowardly for that? As for the reporter he was flying a drone giving information to the terrorists.
Click to expand...


I'm not sure what that has to do with my response to you.  Not every person killed as a military man with implements of war.  That's a flat out lie.

As to the blockade - I already have, in multiple posts, explained my position on it, and on Israel's response to attempts to tear down the fence.

The reporter - if he was flying a drone - was doing so for the purposes of photo-journalism, and his final video indicates that.  He was clearly marked as press, was vetted well enough to have gotten a grant from the US, and had a brilliant career ahead of him.  Israel has offered NO evidence that he was Hamas, or that he was spying.  None.  It was the murder of a journalist.


----------



## fncceo

theliq said:


> You Boasting Pharisee,You'll Never Conquer Me



Already have.  You whinge and whine about Jews ... and can do nothing about them.  If you're nice, we'll let you work at a shop in Elsternwick.   Where you have to serve us all day and be polite doing it.






Don't forget to smile.


----------



## rylah

theliq said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> theliq said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> fncceo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> theliq said:
> 
> 
> 
> .I am essentially here to kick Zionist Ass
> 
> 
> 
> 
> People have tried that before ... didn't work out for them.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And they had a state-of-the-art air force.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You Boasting Pharisee,You'll Never Conquer Me
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Who needs Australia...there's no Yerushalaim.
> 
> All kangaroos are yours
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Trouble is we are too nice and Australia is Yerushalaim A CASH ONE TO LEPERS LIKE NIT AND YAR WHO?....Who came BEGGING LIKE A GYPO for cash.....So don't talk TRASH to me rylah,,,,I KNOW IT ALL,THE LYING AND THE DECIET OF THE ZOINIST SYNTHETIC JEW<TERRORISTS....YOU WEAR A PLASTIC SMILE BECAUSE YOU ARE SYNTHETIC
Click to expand...


Oh boy... if You only knew.


----------



## theliq

harmonica said:


> Billo_Really said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> harmonica said:
> 
> 
> 
> which ones would that be??
> 
> 
> 
> Right off the top of my head, how 'bout Israeli snipers shooting unarmed Palestinians?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> ..in general it is not the policy of Israelis to murder/target innocent civilians
> ..there will always be mistakes/errors/lone wolves/etc--but it is not Israel's policy to murder/target innocent civilians
> it IS the policy of the Pals to murder/directly target innocent civilians
Click to expand...

There is something mentally wrong with you


----------



## theliq

fncceo said:


> theliq said:
> 
> 
> 
> You Boasting Pharisee,You'll Never Conquer Me
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Already have.  You whinge and whine about Jews ... and can do nothing about them.  If you're nice, we'll let you work at a shop in Elsternwick.   Where you have to serve us all day and be polite doing it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Don't forget to smile.
Click to expand...

I make a point of Never serving Murdering Filth


----------



## Coyote

rylah said:


> RetiredGySgt said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MaryL said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> montelatici said:
> 
> 
> 
> Nice people those Israeli Jews.
> 
> Israeli forces shoot unarmed protesters from across Gaza security fence, killing at least 15
> 
> 
> 
> Forgive me if i find this thread a tad ...fishy. I think there is a little bit more to this than the OP would have us  believe, isn't there? So Israeli Security forces got a wild notion to just shoot up a crowd  for no reason whatsoever.  Just like that.  Please, what is the part you left out?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> If you had read the thread you would see that the Pro Terrorist side leaves out the fact that every person killed was a military man and was armed with Molotov cocktails, slingshots or other implements of war or they were attempting to breach the fence.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I have to say that I'm with Coyote here, 100% of accuracy is impossible, especially with all the smoke and mess going there.
> What I will never agree is that our army's purpose it to just shoot unrelated people. In a country where soldiers are constantly followed by cameras, and they jail a soldier who finished a terrorist lying on the ground after he  just stabbed another soldier... let's just say it's unlikely because we fight 2 wars at the same time...
> 
> *The Russians and the Syrians in the north on the other hand... gas 'em, bomb em out existence - all You hear is a yawn...no Jews to blame*.
Click to expand...


And add to that the Rohinga.  But not a word...barely any threads except to defend the Russians, Assad and Myanmar for their atrocities.  And those absolutely are atrocities.  When Israeli soldiers start decapitating children, throwing infants into fires,burning people alive in their homes, raining barrel bombs on civilian populations, then there is equivalence.


----------



## theliq

rylah said:


> theliq said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> theliq said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> fncceo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> theliq said:
> 
> 
> 
> .I am essentially here to kick Zionist Ass
> 
> 
> 
> 
> People have tried that before ... didn't work out for them.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And they had a state-of-the-art air force.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You Boasting Pharisee,You'll Never Conquer Me
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Who needs Australia...there's no Yerushalaim.
> 
> All kangaroos are yours
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Trouble is we are too nice and Australia is Yerushalaim A CASH ONE TO LEPERS LIKE NIT AND YAR WHO?....Who came BEGGING LIKE A GYPO for cash.....So don't talk TRASH to me rylah,,,,I KNOW IT ALL,THE LYING AND THE DECIET OF THE ZOINIST SYNTHETIC JEW<TERRORISTS....YOU WEAR A PLASTIC SMILE BECAUSE YOU ARE SYNTHETIC
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Oh boy... if You only knew.
Click to expand...

Dream On Rasclatt


----------



## Coyote

Billo_Really said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> By the response I read on Arab social media, here as well - the notion is towards Israel.
> 
> The Swastika on their flag said it all, and the open call for murder also didn't go unnoticed.
> 
> Gazans are their own worst enemies.
> 
> 
> 
> If someone was shooting your family members in the streets, what would you do?  Invite them to dinner?  Come over for some falafal.
Click to expand...


Actually...why not?  Sometimes actually MEETING people over a meal can change minds...How One Man Convinced 200 Ku Klux Klan Members To Give Up Their Robes


----------



## Coyote

*Back on topic folks...*


----------



## rylah

Coyote said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> RetiredGySgt said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MaryL said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> montelatici said:
> 
> 
> 
> Nice people those Israeli Jews.
> 
> Israeli forces shoot unarmed protesters from across Gaza security fence, killing at least 15
> 
> 
> 
> Forgive me if i find this thread a tad ...fishy. I think there is a little bit more to this than the OP would have us  believe, isn't there? So Israeli Security forces got a wild notion to just shoot up a crowd  for no reason whatsoever.  Just like that.  Please, what is the part you left out?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> If you had read the thread you would see that the Pro Terrorist side leaves out the fact that every person killed was a military man and was armed with Molotov cocktails, slingshots or other implements of war or they were attempting to breach the fence.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I have to say that I'm with Coyote here, 100% of accuracy is impossible, especially with all the smoke and mess going there.
> What I will never agree is that our army's purpose it to just shoot unrelated people. In a country where soldiers are constantly followed by cameras, and they jail a soldier who finished a terrorist lying on the ground after he  just stabbed another soldier... let's just say it's unlikely because we fight 2 wars at the same time...
> 
> *The Russians and the Syrians in the north on the other hand... gas 'em, bomb em out existence - all You hear is a yawn...no Jews to blame*.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> And add to that the Rohinga.  But not a word...barely any threads except to defend the Russians, Assad and Myanmar for their atrocities.  And those absolutely are atrocities.  When Israeli soldiers start decapitating children, throwing infants into fires,burning people alive in their homes, raining barrel bombs on civilian populations, then there is equivalence.
Click to expand...


goosebumps... the last sentence...no.
Wow this just shook me to the core....this is the opposite of us.

Can't imagine our boys like that. Sorry I'm left speechless just imagining this done by our people.
 ugh..


----------



## Coyote

In my opinion...when it comes to the military - there is a wide latitude among nations in ethics, rules of engagement, and discipline.

Any military will have those individuals who are beasts, but what matters is the core ethics and discipline - especially discipline - that does not allow that kind of behavior and imposes justice and accountability when it is breached.  It's not perfect by any means - but there is better and there is worse and on down to atrocity.


----------



## rylah

Let's focus on solutions.

I think the future of Gaza lays with influence of Arab- Muslim recognized leaders, and further integration into the Arab world and the economy of the neighborhood - which definitely has a lot options to offer.

Some may have heard about the Palestinian Emirate solution I've mentioned a couple of times.
Thoughts?


----------



## Coyote

rylah said:


> Let's focus on solutions.
> 
> I think the future of Gaza lays with influence of Arab- Muslim recognized leaders, and further integration into the Arab world and the economy of the neighborhood - which definitely has a lot options to offer.
> 
> Some may have heard about the Palestinian Emirate solution I've mentioned a couple of times.
> Thoughts?



Can you expand on the Palestinian Emirate?  I might have missed it or, don't recall it.


----------



## Billo_Really

harmonica said:


> please provide proof it is Israeli policy to directly target civilians
> so a sniper shot a civilian---this does not show Israeli policy



From the *guys* doing the shooting...

_Rank: First Sergeant
unit: Armored Corps
area: Deir al-Balah area
period: 2014_
_
“Anything you see in the neighborhoods you’re in, anything within a reasonable distance, say between zero and 200 meters – is dead on the spot. No authorization needed.” We asked him: “I see someone walking in the street, do I shoot him?” He said yes. “Why do I shoot him?” “Because he isn’t supposed to be there._ 

_"...anyone located in an IDF area, in areas the IDF took over – is not [considered] a civilian."

"The instructions are to shoot right away. Whoever you spot – be they armed or unarmed, no matter what. The instructions are very clear. Any person you run into, that you see with your eyes – shoot to kill. It’s an explicit instruction."

_​_*Here's*_ another one...

_(Gaza) – Israeli forces in the southern Gaza town of Khuza’a fired on and killed civilians in apparent violation of the laws of war in several incidents between July 23 and 25, 2014. Deliberate attacks on civilians who are not participating in the fighting are war crimes.
_​And another...

*Israel Speaks: “We Purposefully Attack Civilians… Because They Deserve It”*
​There is so much out there, that you have to be deliberately not wanting to see any of this.
​


----------



## rylah

Coyote said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> Let's focus on solutions.
> 
> I think the future of Gaza lays with influence of Arab- Muslim recognized leaders, and further integration into the Arab world and the economy of the neighborhood - which definitely has a lot options to offer.
> 
> Some may have heard about the Palestinian Emirate solution I've mentioned a couple of times.
> Thoughts?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Can you expand on the Palestinian Emirate?  I might have missed it or, don't recall it.
Click to expand...

In very short:

Palestinian Emirates Introduction

I myself still have  lots of questions about this idea, and waiting for an answer from the prof.
Somehow this solution feels natural from my perspective, in light of the prosperity and calm of the Emirates in the gulf (even those without oil).

So before we go into tiny details,  just give me Your opinion about the essence itself.


----------



## Billo_Really

rylah said:


> Dude You don't even realize how suicidal it is...just imagine what happens at the crucial moment when the Arab world decides to confront Iran. *Believe me, although Gazans are my enemies - I don't wish for them what I see is coming.*


That's your decision and your fault.  Don't blame others for the things you decide to do.


----------



## skye

theliq said:


> skye said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tijn Von Ingersleben said:
> 
> 
> 
> One of the two sides should hurry up and kill the other...I am tired of my tax dollars going toward this shit show.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> with money or without money...
> 
> the show will continue until the palestinians stop their tantrum.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Usual Zionist Trump loving Banality,............YAWN.....so uncouth and unclean....you need your mouth washing out....Silly Skye Silly Skye rrrrrrrrrrrrrr
Click to expand...



^^


----------



## rylah

Billo_Really said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> Dude You don't even realize how suicidal it is...just imagine what happens at the crucial moment when the Arab world decides to confront Iran. *Believe me, although Gazans are my enemies - I don't wish for them what I see is coming.*
> 
> 
> 
> That's your decision and your fault.  Don't blame others for the things you decide to do.
Click to expand...


Of course Gazans are not even responsible for cleaning their nose
Dude You don't make sense. Reread what I wrote, and in relation to what.


----------



## Billo_Really

Toddsterpatriot said:


> They moved out of Gaza, it was in all the papers.


Maintaining "effective control" of an area, is still an occupation.


----------



## Billo_Really

rylah said:


> If someone waved a Swastika at me and said "I wanna reap the hearts of Jews away on the way to Jerusalem"....that wouldn't leave much options.
> 
> Real danger -real response. Historic justice.


If that someone was a 4 year old girl with no legs, would you still feel threatened?


----------



## Billo_Really

Coyote said:


> Actually...why not?  Sometimes actually MEETING people over a meal can change minds...How One Man Convinced 200 Ku Klux Klan Members To Give Up Their Robes


Would you sit down and have dinner with a member of the SS?


----------



## Billo_Really

rylah said:


> Of course Gazans are not even responsible for cleaning their nose
> Dude You don't make sense. Reread what I wrote, and in relation to what.


You don't wish for them to see what is coming, is a result of a decision you made.


----------



## rylah

Billo_Really said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> Of course Gazans are not even responsible for cleaning their nose
> Dude You don't make sense. Reread what I wrote, and in relation to what.
> 
> 
> 
> You don't wish for them to see what is coming, is a result of a decision you made.
Click to expand...


Gazans don't make decisions? Hamas clearly made one of big impact, in spite of numerous options proposed by the neighbors -all were rejected- their decision.
No one owes them anything.

Don't wanna port, don't wanna oil, don't wanna airport...why? Because Jews.


----------



## rylah

Billo_Really said:


> Toddsterpatriot said:
> 
> 
> 
> They moved out of Gaza, it was in all the papers.
> 
> 
> 
> Maintaining "effective control" of an area, is still an occupation.
Click to expand...


Then why don't they start  wars with Egypt?


----------



## Coyote

Billo_Really said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> Actually...why not?  Sometimes actually MEETING people over a meal can change minds...How One Man Convinced 200 Ku Klux Klan Members To Give Up Their Robes
> 
> 
> 
> Would you sit down and have dinner with a member of the SS?
Click to expand...


Yes - if I was as courageous as the man in the article I posted.


----------



## Coyote

rylah said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> Let's focus on solutions.
> 
> I think the future of Gaza lays with influence of Arab- Muslim recognized leaders, and further integration into the Arab world and the economy of the neighborhood - which definitely has a lot options to offer.
> 
> Some may have heard about the Palestinian Emirate solution I've mentioned a couple of times.
> Thoughts?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Can you expand on the Palestinian Emirate?  I might have missed it or, don't recall it.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> In very short:
> 
> Palestinian Emirates Introduction
> 
> I myself still have  lots of questions about this idea, and waiting for an answer from the prof.
> Somehow this solution feels natural from my perspective, in light of the prosperity and calm of the Emirates in the gulf (even those without oil).
> 
> So before we go into tiny details,  just give me Your opinion about the essence itself.
Click to expand...


I looked it up and found an article - I find reading easier then video - so this is what I found: Palestinian Emirates Introduction

It is fascinating - in fact, it deserves it's own thread, so I will start one.


----------



## rylah

Coyote said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> Let's focus on solutions.
> 
> I think the future of Gaza lays with influence of Arab- Muslim recognized leaders, and further integration into the Arab world and the economy of the neighborhood - which definitely has a lot options to offer.
> 
> Some may have heard about the Palestinian Emirate solution I've mentioned a couple of times.
> Thoughts?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Can you expand on the Palestinian Emirate?  I might have missed it or, don't recall it.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> In very short:
> 
> Palestinian Emirates Introduction
> 
> I myself still have  lots of questions about this idea, and waiting for an answer from the prof.
> Somehow this solution feels natural from my perspective, in light of the prosperity and calm of the Emirates in the gulf (even those without oil).
> 
> So before we go into tiny details,  just give me Your opinion about the essence itself.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I looked it up and found an article - I find reading easier then video - so this is what I found: Palestinian Emirates Introduction
> 
> It is fascinating - in fact, it deserves it's own thread, so I will start one.
Click to expand...


Sure cool, let's discuss...I'll come back tomorrow.

Coyote 
Edit: I've opened one moths ago, if You see fit please stat a new one 
(I actually prefer if possible) from Your perspective.


----------



## RoccoR

RE:  Israeli forces shoot unarmed protesters from across Gaza security fence, killing at least 15
※→  Coyote, et al,

BLUF:  I honestly do not know.  

My feeling or guess → based on intuition → rather than known facts, is that it is not true.

I don't think that in the end, it will matter as to whether or not the Israeli authorities assign enforcement or administer justice over Area "C" Israelis, the same way authorities assign enforcement or administer justice over Area "C" Arab Palestinians.

The Arab Palestinians have prosecuted the conflict for so long and in such a way that, like an old windshield wiper, it gradually builds up so many streaks that at some point the view is totally obscured.  We all know what the clear view is suppose to look like, it just that it is opaque.  Looking from one side to the other, we no longer recognize one another.



Coyote said:


> Well...let me ask you this then.
> 
> There have been Israeli extremists who have been found guilty of terrorism (two incidents come to mind - the firebombing of a Palestinian home, and the kidnapping, setting on fire and murder of a Palestinian youth.  In the former, there had to have been knowledge and protection by the families, because it took considerable time to find the guilty youths.
> 
> Were any homes demolished?


*(COMMENT)*

There is probably no valid argument to be made that either side: 

■→ one being the Arab Palestinians applying violence and coersion to achieve wealth and property for which a conflict has continue for more than a half-century; and 

■→ the other being the Israelis that have been in the constant role of a establishing solid defensive gound and defensible bountries to protect and maintatin sovereignty ⇒ _(again that either side)_ has not run afoul of Customary and International Humanitarian Law (IHL).​
Neither side is batting a thousand in being prefectly fair or rendering justice _(undeclared wars are notorious for that)_.      

Israeli Soveirenty is the key, and it embodied in decisions of the Allied Powers at San Remo (1920).

The Right of Return (RoR) millions of descendants of displaced Arabs during the 1948 War of Independence must be allowed to “return” to Israel.  They want to grant the RETURN to those millions that never lived in Israel at all.  The want to shift the demographics such that it will no longer be a Jewish National Home.  They want to create another condition of exile for the Jews.

Descendent  Claims and Survivor administration of the challenge to estate property pertaining to deceased persons. 

It is probably not likely that the Israelis are going to compromise 

Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## Coyote

rylah said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> Let's focus on solutions.
> 
> I think the future of Gaza lays with influence of Arab- Muslim recognized leaders, and further integration into the Arab world and the economy of the neighborhood - which definitely has a lot options to offer.
> 
> Some may have heard about the Palestinian Emirate solution I've mentioned a couple of times.
> Thoughts?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Can you expand on the Palestinian Emirate?  I might have missed it or, don't recall it.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> In very short:
> 
> Palestinian Emirates Introduction
> 
> I myself still have  lots of questions about this idea, and waiting for an answer from the prof.
> Somehow this solution feels natural from my perspective, in light of the prosperity and calm of the Emirates in the gulf (even those without oil).
> 
> So before we go into tiny details,  just give me Your opinion about the essence itself.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I looked it up and found an article - I find reading easier then video - so this is what I found: Palestinian Emirates Introduction
> 
> It is fascinating - in fact, it deserves it's own thread, so I will start one.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Sure cool, let's discuss...I'll come back tomorrow.
Click to expand...


I started it


----------



## Coyote

RoccoR said:


> RE:  Israeli forces shoot unarmed protesters from across Gaza security fence, killing at least 15
> ※→  Coyote, et al,
> 
> BLUF:  I honestly do not know.
> 
> My feeling or guess → based on intuition → rather than known facts, is that it is not true.
> 
> I don't think that in the end, it will matter as to whether or not the Israeli authorities assign enforcement or administer justice over Area "C" Israelis, the same way authorities assign enforcement or administer justice over Area "C" Arab Palestinians.
> 
> The Arab Palestinians have prosecuted the conflict for so long and in such a way that, like an old windshield wiper, it gradually builds up so many streaks that at some point the view is totally obscured.  We all know what the clear view is suppose to look like, it just that it is opaque.  Looking from one side to the other, we no longer recognize one another.
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well...let me ask you this then.
> 
> There have been Israeli extremists who have been found guilty of terrorism (two incidents come to mind - the firebombing of a Palestinian home, and the kidnapping, setting on fire and murder of a Palestinian youth.  In the former, there had to have been knowledge and protection by the families, because it took considerable time to find the guilty youths.
> 
> Were any homes demolished?
> 
> 
> 
> *(COMMENT)*
> 
> There is probably no valid argument to be made that either side:
> 
> ■→ one being the Arab Palestinians applying violence and coersion to achieve wealth and property for which a conflict has continue for more than a half-century; and
> 
> ■→ the other being the Israelis that have been in the constant role of a establishing solid defensive gound and defensible bountries to protect and maintatin sovereignty ⇒ _(again that either side)_ has not run afoul of Customary and International Humanitarian Law (IHL).​
> Neither side is batting a thousand in being prefectly fair or rendering justice _(undeclared wars are notorious for that)_.
> 
> Israeli Soveirenty is the key, and it embodied in decisions of the Allied Powers at San Remo (1920).
> 
> The Right of Return (RoR) millions of descendants of displaced Arabs during the 1948 War of Independence must be allowed to “return” to Israel.  They want to grant the RETURN to those millions that never lived in Israel at all.  The want to shift the demographics such that it will no longer be a Jewish National Home.  They want to create another condition of exile for the Jews.
> 
> Descendent  Claims and Survivor administration of the challenge to estate property pertaining to deceased persons.
> 
> It is probably not likely that the Israelis are going to compromise
> 
> Most Respectfully,
> R
Click to expand...


On the right of return - I agree.  IMO, "right of return" would only apply to those surviving people, not all their descendents...but even then, I understand the demographic issue.  The other side of it is - those forced to flee and refused return, are owed some sort of compensation for lost homes and property.  Part of the injustice here is Israel's deliberate creation of absentee property laws designed to inhibit Palestinians from reclaiming property.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot

Billo_Really said:


> Toddsterpatriot said:
> 
> 
> 
> They moved out of Gaza, it was in all the papers.
> 
> 
> 
> Maintaining "effective control" of an area, is still an occupation.
Click to expand...


Effective control? With rockets fired from Gaza?


----------



## Billo_Really

rylah said:


> Gazans don't make decisions? Hamas clearly made one of big impact, in spite of numerous options proposed by the neighbors -all were rejected- their decision.


Israel hasn't proposed jack shit, asshole!



rylah said:


> No one owes them anything.


No one owes you a fuckin' country, either. But you are owed an ass whipping.



rylah said:


> Don't wanna port, don't wanna oil, don't wanna airport...why? Because Jews.


This issue has nothing to do with Judaism.

But since you wanna play the J-card, you don't even have that anymore.

*"Devastating’ survey shows huge loss of Israel support among Jewish college students"
*
_There is no longer nuance in campus conversations about Israel, ...Instead, the “atmosphere is oppressor versus victim. Israel is just another symbol of this.”_​



And so do Palestinians.


----------



## Billo_Really

rylah said:


> Then why don't they start  wars with Egypt?


A population under occupation can't do anything until the occupation is over.  And they didn't start a war with Israel, you started the war with them.

You're the ones who migrated here, not them.


----------



## Billo_Really

Coyote said:


> Yes - if I was as courageous as the man in the article I posted.


Interesting.  Think I'll start a thread to find out what you two would talk about?


----------



## Billo_Really

Toddsterpatriot said:


> Effective control? With rockets fired from Gaza?


In response to bullets coming from Israel.


----------



## Humanity

RoccoR said:


> What I think "collective punishment " is _(like lining people up against the wall and shooting them)_ and what you think "collective punishment" is, are different things.



That's quite a skewed idea of "collective punishment" you have there...

The first image is YOUR idea of "collective punishment".... 

The second two images are MY idea of "collective punishment"...


----------



## rylah

Billo_Really said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> Then why don't they start  wars with Egypt?
> 
> 
> 
> A population under occupation can't do anything until the occupation is over.  And they didn't start a war with Israel, you started the war with them.
> 
> You're the ones who migrated here, not them.
Click to expand...

That is counter to You own logic, was there ever a war against Egyptian occupation?

Yet they shoot rockets at us and not Egypt
they send their kids to explode in Israel and not Egypt.
The answer is simple - they consider Egyptians muslim brothers and Jews sworn enemies , and they know full well that  Egypt will give them the Arab treatment they receive all around in the countries where they start  their suicidal wars (Jordan, Lebanon)

Yeah they didn't migrate, those Arabian tribes just came into existence out of nowhere, this one for example is the tribe of their latest "Stab 'em all" poster child Ahed Tamimi, her tribe owns Qatar:

*Arabian tribes: Tamimi tribe*

The tribe of *Banu Tamim* (Arabic: بـنـو تـمـيـم‎) or *Bani Tamim* (Arabic: بـني تـمـيـم‎) is one of the main tribes of Arabia.

Today, descendants from the tribe live in the Arabian Peninsula and neighboring countries such as Saudi Arabia,[1][2] India, Iraq, Kuwait, Jordan, Syria, Qatar, Oman, Yemen, Bahrain, United Arab Emirates, Iran, Lebanon and Palestine. The word _Tamim_ in Arabic means strong and solid. It can also mean perfection.[3]

*Dynasties[edit]*

The Aghlabid dynasty
The Al Thani, ruling family of Qatar. (See House of Thani)
The Al ash-Sheikh family of the Grand Muftis of the Emirate of Diriyah, then the Emirate of Najd and now modern day Saudi Arabia (Religious Dynasty).
Al Khater – a prestigious family of the middle east based primarily in Qatar, Saudi Arabia, and Bahrain






Arabian tribes: tribe of Abbas

The *Banu Abbas* (Arabic: بنو عباس‎) are an Arabian tribe, descendants of Al-‘Abbas ibn ‘Abd al-Muttalib. The caliphs of the Banu Abbas served as heads of the Muslim community for a period of five centuries (from 750 until the sack of Baghdad in 1258).[2] This was the Abbasid caliphate.





Half the Arabs who whine about Jews have their huge ancestral lands, and whole countries under the control in Arabia, and the other half are Egyptians. And I didn't count the Kurdish families of soldiers of Saldin.

The war started when Arabs saw that Jews began raising their heads and organizing a movement to protect them from Arab pogroms in Syria- Palestine.
Modern Zionism sparked as an answer to the Damascus affair and the waves of Arab pogroms at the time.

Their choice their consequences. The caliph may go whine and demand Spain as well...
I'll make the popcorn.


----------



## RoccoR

"RE:  Israeli forces shoot unarmed protesters from across Gaza security fence, killing at least 15 
※→  Humanity  et al,

Yes, I'm thinking you and I are thinking differently if you cannot tell the difference between "collective punishment" and:

1)  A military execution by firing squad.  (Execution of General - may be - Anton Dostler>)
2)  An indication of mass murder on the order of genocide.  (Photo - may be - of an extermination camp.)
3)  Children if fear of something outside the view of the camera. (Photo w/o context.)​


Humanity said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> 
> What I think "collective punishment " is _(like lining people up against the wall and shooting them)_ and what you think "collective punishment" is, are different things.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That's quite a skewed idea of "collective punishment" you have there...
> 
> The first image is YOUR idea of "collective punishment"....
> 
> The second two images are MY idea of "collective punishment"...
Click to expand...

*(COMMENT)*

My point exactly.  It is possible for people to have a different view of the phrase:  "collective punishment."  

During WWII, it was not uncommon for the Waffen SS to demand the surrender of the Maquis or the SS would executed 10 civilians every half an hour.  This, as well, is an example of collective punishment.

Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## rylah

Billo_Really said:


> Israel hasn't proposed jack shit, asshole!
> .



I'm sorry sweetheart - I left the only sentence that made some sense in all that ignorant idiocy.

Yes it has, along with Egypt and other neighbors. Here's just one Hamas refused...
don't think they ever asked the people though:


I hope no more proposition directly from Israel in the next 20 years, until they prove they came to senses and deserve anything. Go talk to Your Arab fellows...convince them You're no longer Iranian traitors.

Then again if they don't make any progress, Egypt has a clear plan to install their police and clear the enclave from the suicidal Islamists. Apparently as long as there're no Jews around, occupation doesn't seem to be a problem for them.

At the end of the day, Egypt occupied it for years without any whining and kitten faced extortions...so Gazans practically navigate towards this themselves.


----------



## P F Tinmore

rylah said:


> Billo_Really said:
> 
> 
> 
> Israel hasn't proposed jack shit, asshole!
> .
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm sorry sweetheart - I left the only sentence that made some sense in all that ignorant idiocy.
> 
> Yes it has, along with Egypt and other neighbors. Here's just one Hamas refused...
> don't think they ever asked the people though:
> 
> 
> I hope no more proposition directly from Israel in the next 20 years, until they prove they came to senses and deserve anything. Go talk to Your Arab fellows...convince them You're no longer Iranian traitors.
> 
> Then again if they don't make any progress, Egypt has a clear plan to install their police and clear the enclave from the suicidal Islamists. Apparently as long as there're no Jews around, occupation doesn't seem to be a problem for them.
> 
> At the end of the day, Egypt occupied it for years without any whining and kitten faced extortions...so Gazans practically navigate towards this themselves.
Click to expand...




rylah said:


> Here's just one Hamas refused...


What would be better than now?


----------



## P F Tinmore

rylah said:


> That is counter to You own logic, was there ever a war against Egyptian occupation?


The Egyptian occupation did not kick them out of their homes and steal their land.


----------



## rylah

P F Tinmore said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Billo_Really said:
> 
> 
> 
> Israel hasn't proposed jack shit, asshole!
> .
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm sorry sweetheart - I left the only sentence that made some sense in all that ignorant idiocy.
> 
> Yes it has, along with Egypt and other neighbors. Here's just one Hamas refused...
> don't think they ever asked the people though:
> 
> 
> I hope no more proposition directly from Israel in the next 20 years, until they prove they came to senses and deserve anything. Go talk to Your Arab fellows...convince them You're no longer Iranian traitors.
> 
> Then again if they don't make any progress, Egypt has a clear plan to install their police and clear the enclave from the suicidal Islamists. Apparently as long as there're no Jews around, occupation doesn't seem to be a problem for them.
> 
> At the end of the day, Egypt occupied it for years without any whining and kitten faced extortions...so Gazans practically navigate towards this themselves.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> Here's just one Hamas refused...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> What would be better than now?
Click to expand...

* Economy, security, prosperity, fusion into the bigger Arab and western worlds as viable partners* rather than needy children. 

Hamas doesn't want that?  Show 'em the door or explain in their language. But it has to be either done by the people within or with the help of Arab leaders who will empower them and give an opportunity to see that Hamas way is not the only way.

They just need to raise their own voice and look at  available options - not through Islamist suicidal lenses, but from a perspective of becoming a grown up member of the neighborhood.

Everything will be better for them once they realize that prosperity is better that suicidal war, and that Jews are home and here to stay until the end, and if not - none will.


----------



## Hollie

P F Tinmore said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> That is counter to You own logic, was there ever a war against Egyptian occupation?
> 
> 
> 
> The Egyptian occupation did not kick them out of their homes and steal their land.
Click to expand...

They certainly did in 1948.


----------



## rylah

P F Tinmore said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> That is counter to You own logic, was there ever a war against Egyptian occupation?
> 
> 
> 
> The Egyptian occupation did not kick them out of their homes and steal their land.
Click to expand...


Give me a break they bomb 'em when they want, expell their leaders as they wish, and take their homes when they want...but there's no Jew to blame so no one asks questions. Arab treatment that is.

Should Israel go the Egyptian or Jordanian way...I mean all this march would be "solved" in less than a day. Is this what You're saying?

Because it sure seems Gazans themselves signal towards this...You know like Pavlov dog?
Jordan treated them in no time and silence ever since, Egypt occupation - silence all dandy.
But once we disengage - here's a war for You.

One can take this  insistence on self-abuse as a hint to the only solution they seem to have no objections to. Should Israelis learn to speak the _"language of the Arab man"?_


----------



## P F Tinmore




----------



## Hollie

Islamics behaving like savages. 

Another of your "slime the Pal'istanians", YouTube videos.


----------



## rylah

P F Tinmore said:


>



Wait a sec so the vest is INDEED bulletproof... wow and You don't realize how this puts the whole claim about "targeting" into garbage.

Do You have ANY proof Hamas didn't kill him for propaganda purposes to deflect from the IED's, rifles and the Swastika flag? ANY?


----------



## P F Tinmore




----------



## rylah

P F Tinmore said:


>



And.. what are we supposed to see here? The causes of tire burning?...Yeah we told 'em bout that. But Gazans are Gazans...they'll even complain that they have no more tires left and blame Israel

I guess You deflect to this silly video because there's no proof that an Israeli killed him, or even targeted.


----------



## P F Tinmore




----------



## Hollie

P F Tinmore said:


>



It's interesting to see that the silliness otherwise known as 

*Arab-Moslem Tire Burning Riots 2018 *have fizzled and become little more than an excuse for Arabs-Moslems to behave like barbarians.


----------



## rylah

P F Tinmore said:


>


Shusha Coyote Hossfly Sixties Fan ForeverYoung436 Toddsterpatriot ILOVEISRAEL RoccoR Hollie Humanity Billo_Really



Tinmore....I guess You don't  know Arabic.
You've GOT to start making sense for Your team...'cause what You've just posted is a guy calling everyone to go and die - Literally.
*
AND GO ALTOGETHER MURDER JEWS-  LITERALLY!*

 Idiot - I'll keep that one for when You start whining.

Just


----------



## P F Tinmore

*Gaza protests: Will Israel stop using deadly force?*

**


----------



## Toddsterpatriot

Billo_Really said:


> Toddsterpatriot said:
> 
> 
> 
> Effective control? With rockets fired from Gaza?
> 
> 
> 
> In response to bullets coming from Israel.
Click to expand...


How's that working out for your Muzzie terrorist buddies?


----------



## Hollie

P F Tinmore said:


> *Gaza protests: Will Israel stop using deadly force?*



Why would Israel not use deadly force in the face of life threatening attacks?


----------



## harmonica

Billo_Really said:


> harmonica said:
> 
> 
> 
> please provide proof it is Israeli policy to directly target civilians
> so a sniper shot a civilian---this does not show Israeli policy
> 
> 
> 
> 
> From the *guys* doing the shooting...
> 
> _Rank: First Sergeant
> unit: Armored Corps
> area: Deir al-Balah area
> period: 2014
> 
> “Anything you see in the neighborhoods you’re in, anything within a reasonable distance, say between zero and 200 meters – is dead on the spot. No authorization needed.” We asked him: “I see someone walking in the street, do I shoot him?” He said yes. “Why do I shoot him?” “Because he isn’t supposed to be there._
> 
> _"...anyone located in an IDF area, in areas the IDF took over – is not [considered] a civilian."
> 
> "The instructions are to shoot right away. Whoever you spot – be they armed or unarmed, no matter what. The instructions are very clear. Any person you run into, that you see with your eyes – shoot to kill. It’s an explicit instruction."
> 
> _​_*Here's*_ another one...
> 
> _(Gaza) – Israeli forces in the southern Gaza town of Khuza’a fired on and killed civilians in apparent violation of the laws of war in several incidents between July 23 and 25, 2014. Deliberate attacks on civilians who are not participating in the fighting are war crimes.
> _​And another...
> 
> *Israel Speaks: “We Purposefully Attack Civilians… Because They Deserve It”*
> ​There is so much out there, that you have to be deliberately not wanting to see any of this.
> ​
Click to expand...

this proves nothing
..where is the POLICY!! ? the Pals kidnap civilians then kill them/etc --NO DOUBT about it
..these excerpts do not make sense---there is no context--no overall story.....
..so there is an area where no civilians are not supposed to be--just like in the Vietnam War--if civilians are not supposed to be there, and they get killed--it's the civilians fault!!!
from your link:


> “leave your homes, or else,”


the US did this in WW2 !!! same thing


> Through much of World War II, Allied bombers would sometimes drop leaflets warning of impending bombing of a city.


Warning Leaflets
..


----------



## rylah

P F Tinmore said:


> *Gaza protests: Will Israel stop using deadly force?*
> 
> **



Where is the video Mahdi is talking about??!!

I haven't seen one clearly showing Israelis targeting unarmed civilians who were merely protesting.
Everyone has got a big mouth... no one dares to talk about the armed militants or the publically stated goal to murder Jews.

2 against one and ZERO facts. *Try to sprinkle a Swastika with glitter - that's what You get.*
Hypocrite liars.


----------



## Billo_Really

rylah said:


> That is counter to You own logic, was there ever a war against Egyptian occupation?


Because Egypt doesn't occupy Palestinian land. That's why.



rylah said:


> Yet they shoot rockets at us and not Egypt
> they send their kids to explode in Israel and not Egypt.
> The answer is simple - they consider Egyptians muslim brothers and Jews sworn enemies , and they know full well that  Egypt will give them the Arab treatment they receive all around in the countries where they start  their suicidal wars (Jordan, Lebanon)


They shoot rockets at Israel in response to the brutal occupation Israel has maintained for almost a half century.  The occupation is the cause of all the violence.



rylah said:


> Yeah they didn't migrate, those Arabian tribes just came into existence out of nowhere, this one for example is the tribe of their latest "Stab 'em all" poster child Ahed Tamimi, her tribe owns Qatar:
> 
> *Arabian tribes: Tamimi tribe*
> 
> The tribe of *Banu Tamim* (Arabic: بـنـو تـمـيـم‎) or *Bani Tamim* (Arabic: بـني تـمـيـم‎) is one of the main tribes of Arabia.
> 
> Today, descendants from the tribe live in the Arabian Peninsula and neighboring countries such as Saudi Arabia,[1][2] India, Iraq, Kuwait, Jordan, Syria, Qatar, Oman, Yemen, Bahrain, United Arab Emirates, Iran, Lebanon and Palestine. The word _Tamim_ in Arabic means strong and solid. It can also mean perfection.[3]
> 
> *Dynasties[edit]*
> 
> The Aghlabid dynasty
> The Al Thani, ruling family of Qatar. (See House of Thani)
> The Al ash-Sheikh family of the Grand Muftis of the Emirate of Diriyah, then the Emirate of Najd and now modern day Saudi Arabia (Religious Dynasty).
> Al Khater – a prestigious family of the middle east based primarily in Qatar, Saudi Arabia, and Bahrain
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Arabian tribes: tribe of Abbas
> 
> The *Banu Abbas* (Arabic: بنو عباس‎) are an Arabian tribe, descendants of Al-‘Abbas ibn ‘Abd al-Muttalib. The caliphs of the Banu Abbas served as heads of the Muslim community for a period of five centuries (from 750 until the sack of Baghdad in 1258).[2] This was the Abbasid caliphate.


Listen jerkoff, there is no denying that Arabs were the majority population in the area.  And Zionists were the racist pricks who immigrated there.



rylah said:


> Half the Arabs who whine about Jews have their huge ancestral lands, and whole countries under the control in Arabia, and the other half are Egyptians. And I didn't count the Kurdish families of soldiers of Saldin.
> 
> The war started when Arabs saw that Jews began raising their heads and organizing a movement to protect them from Arab pogroms in Syria- Palestine.
> Modern Zionism sparked as an answer to the Damascus affair and the waves of Arab pogroms at the time.


Wrong.  The war started when Zionists started treating the indigenous residents like garbage, enacting racist, apartheid policies in regards land ownership and finally resulting to violence and driving out over 750,000 Palestinians from their homes.



rylah said:


> Their choice their consequences. The caliph may go whine and demand Spain as well...
> I'll make the popcorn.


You are not keeping that land.  For the world to allow you to keep what you took in the '67 war, would be like saying it was okay for Germany to annex Poland and that's not going to happen, asshole.


----------



## rylah

Billo_Really said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> That is counter to You own logic, was there ever a war against Egyptian occupation?
> 
> 
> 
> Because Egypt doesn't occupy Palestinian land. That's why.
> 
> 
> 
> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yet they shoot rockets at us and not Egypt
> they send their kids to explode in Israel and not Egypt.
> The answer is simple - they consider Egyptians muslim brothers and Jews sworn enemies , and they know full well that  Egypt will give them the Arab treatment they receive all around in the countries where they start  their suicidal wars (Jordan, Lebanon)
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> They shoot rockets at Israel in response to the brutal occupation Israel has maintained for almost a half century.  The occupation is the cause of all the violence.
> 
> 
> 
> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah they didn't migrate, those Arabian tribes just came into existence out of nowhere, this one for example is the tribe of their latest "Stab 'em all" poster child Ahed Tamimi, her tribe owns Qatar:
> 
> *Arabian tribes: Tamimi tribe*
> 
> The tribe of *Banu Tamim* (Arabic: بـنـو تـمـيـم‎) or *Bani Tamim* (Arabic: بـني تـمـيـم‎) is one of the main tribes of Arabia.
> 
> Today, descendants from the tribe live in the Arabian Peninsula and neighboring countries such as Saudi Arabia,[1][2] India, Iraq, Kuwait, Jordan, Syria, Qatar, Oman, Yemen, Bahrain, United Arab Emirates, Iran, Lebanon and Palestine. The word _Tamim_ in Arabic means strong and solid. It can also mean perfection.[3]
> 
> *Dynasties[edit]*
> 
> The Aghlabid dynasty
> The Al Thani, ruling family of Qatar. (See House of Thani)
> The Al ash-Sheikh family of the Grand Muftis of the Emirate of Diriyah, then the Emirate of Najd and now modern day Saudi Arabia (Religious Dynasty).
> Al Khater – a prestigious family of the middle east based primarily in Qatar, Saudi Arabia, and Bahrain
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Arabian tribes: tribe of Abbas
> 
> The *Banu Abbas* (Arabic: بنو عباس‎) are an Arabian tribe, descendants of Al-‘Abbas ibn ‘Abd al-Muttalib. The caliphs of the Banu Abbas served as heads of the Muslim community for a period of five centuries (from 750 until the sack of Baghdad in 1258).[2] This was the Abbasid caliphate.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Listen jerkoff, there is no denying that Arabs were the majority population in the area.  And Zionists were the racist pricks who immigrated there.
> 
> 
> 
> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> Half the Arabs who whine about Jews have their huge ancestral lands, and whole countries under the control in Arabia, and the other half are Egyptians. And I didn't count the Kurdish families of soldiers of Saldin.
> 
> The war started when Arabs saw that Jews began raising their heads and organizing a movement to protect them from Arab pogroms in Syria- Palestine.
> Modern Zionism sparked as an answer to the Damascus affair and the waves of Arab pogroms at the time.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Wrong.  The war started when Zionists started treating the indigenous residents like garbage, enacting racist, apartheid policies in regards land ownership and finally resulting to violence and driving out over 750,000 Palestinians from their homes.
> 
> 
> 
> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> Their choice their consequences. The caliph may go whine and demand Spain as well...
> I'll make the popcorn.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You are not keeping that land.  For the world to allow you to keep what you took in the '67 war, would be like saying it was okay for Germany to annex Poland and that's not going to happen, asshole.
Click to expand...


Oh boy so much slogans so little interest...You're rehashing sentences form the 60's.

Try to be more relevant to reality.

BTW by Your own category Egypt does "occupy" Gaza - as they control the border and the sea. And they occupied it effectively from 48 until when? Who closed them in camps?
*But the problem appears only when Jews are around - which was clearly explained to us at the beginning of the hostilities You call "peaceful" march.*


So go stick Your heated head in a refrigerator. Maybe some sense might show up.
Or go sell Your bs to some western gullible idiot who thinks Gazans protest with soap bubbles.

*Nobody is responsible for the stupid wars these suicidal maniacs start.*
*If You don't understand go ask a Jordanian.*


----------



## Billo_Really

rylah said:


> I'm sorry sweetheart - I left the only sentence that made some sense in all that ignorant idiocy.
> 
> Yes it has, along with Egypt and other neighbors.


Like that bullshit ceasefire agreement between Israel and Egypt speaking on behalf of the Palestinians?  



rylah said:


> Here's just one Hamas refused...
> don't think they ever asked the people though:


That ain't no offer.  It's complete bullshit.  Israel controls the sea around the island.  And if the port is for Gaza, why is there a checkpoint in between Gaza and Gaza?  Israel needs to get the fuck out of the Pals daily lives.  Israel needs to give up control of that area and get their fucking asses out of the West Bank.  And they have offered no offer, along those lines.



rylah said:


> I hope no more proposition directly from Israel in the next 20 years, until they prove they came to senses and deserve anything. Go talk to Your Arab fellows...convince them You're no longer Iranian traitors.
> 
> Then again if they don't make any progress, Egypt has a clear plan to install their police and clear the enclave from the suicidal Islamists. Apparently as long as there're no Jews around, occupation doesn't seem to be a problem for them.
> 
> At the end of the day, Egypt occupied it for years without any whining and kitten faced extortions...so Gazans practically navigate towards this themselves.


You're the reason for the violence.  You're the big evil in the area. And you're fucking going down, asshole, it's only a matter of time.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot

Billo_Really said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm sorry sweetheart - I left the only sentence that made some sense in all that ignorant idiocy.
> 
> Yes it has, along with Egypt and other neighbors.
> 
> 
> 
> Like that bullshit ceasefire agreement between Israel and Egypt speaking on behalf of the Palestinians?
> 
> 
> 
> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> Here's just one Hamas refused...
> don't think they ever asked the people though:
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> That ain't no offer.  It's complete bullshit.  Israel controls the sea around the island.  And if the port is for Gaza, why is there a checkpoint in between Gaza and Gaza?  Israel needs to get the fuck out of the Pals daily lives.  Israel needs to give up control of that area and get their fucking asses out of the West Bank.  And they have offered no offer, along those lines.
> 
> 
> 
> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> I hope no more proposition directly from Israel in the next 20 years, until they prove they came to senses and deserve anything. Go talk to Your Arab fellows...convince them You're no longer Iranian traitors.
> 
> Then again if they don't make any progress, Egypt has a clear plan to install their police and clear the enclave from the suicidal Islamists. Apparently as long as there're no Jews around, occupation doesn't seem to be a problem for them.
> 
> At the end of the day, Egypt occupied it for years without any whining and kitten faced extortions...so Gazans practically navigate towards this themselves.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You're the reason for the violence.  You're the big evil in the area. And you're fucking going down, asshole, it's only a matter of time.
Click to expand...


LOL!


----------



## rylah

Billo_Really said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm sorry sweetheart - I left the only sentence that made some sense in all that ignorant idiocy.
> 
> Yes it has, along with Egypt and other neighbors.
> 
> 
> 
> Like that bullshit ceasefire agreement between Israel and Egypt speaking on behalf of the Palestinians?
> 
> 
> 
> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> Here's just one Hamas refused...
> don't think they ever asked the people though:
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> That ain't no offer.  It's complete bullshit.  Israel controls the sea around the island.  And if the port is for Gaza, why is there a checkpoint in between Gaza and Gaza?  Israel needs to get the fuck out of the Pals daily lives.  Israel needs to give up control of that area and get their fucking asses out of the West Bank.  And they have offered no offer, along those lines.
> 
> 
> 
> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> I hope no more proposition directly from Israel in the next 20 years, until they prove they came to senses and deserve anything. Go talk to Your Arab fellows...convince them You're no longer Iranian traitors.
> 
> Then again if they don't make any progress, Egypt has a clear plan to install their police and clear the enclave from the suicidal Islamists. Apparently as long as there're no Jews around, occupation doesn't seem to be a problem for them.
> 
> At the end of the day, Egypt occupied it for years without any whining and kitten faced extortions...so Gazans practically navigate towards this themselves.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You're the reason for the violence.  You're the big evil in the area. And you're fucking going down, asshole, it's only a matter of time.
Click to expand...



Dude talk to someone else..
When You start making some sense I might respond. Be well, fly away.

*Israil iilaa alabad!*
*Kishta Ya Amlak bin hmar. *


----------



## Billo_Really

harmonica said:


> ​
> this proves nothing
> ..where is the POLICY!! ? the Pals kidnap civilians then kill them/etc --NO DOUBT about it
> ..these excerpts do not make sense---there is no context--no overall story.....
> ..so there is an area where no civilians are not supposed to be--just like in the Vietnam War--if civilians are not supposed to be there, and they get killed--it's the civilians fault!!!
> from your link:
> 
> the US did this in WW2 !!! same thing
> Through much of World War II, Allied bombers would sometimes drop leaflets warning of impending bombing of a city.
> Warning Leaflets
> ..


The area where no civilians are supposed to be, is Gaza. Where the fuck are they supposed to go?  And just because you drop leaflets, doesn't change the fact that it is illegal to target civilians who play no role in the hostilities.  Targets must be of a military nature.  Treating the entire population as the enemy, is a war crime.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot

Billo_Really said:


> harmonica said:
> 
> 
> 
> ​
> this proves nothing
> ..where is the POLICY!! ? the Pals kidnap civilians then kill them/etc --NO DOUBT about it
> ..these excerpts do not make sense---there is no context--no overall story.....
> ..so there is an area where no civilians are not supposed to be--just like in the Vietnam War--if civilians are not supposed to be there, and they get killed--it's the civilians fault!!!
> from your link:
> 
> the US did this in WW2 !!! same thing
> Through much of World War II, Allied bombers would sometimes drop leaflets warning of impending bombing of a city.
> Warning Leaflets
> ..
> 
> 
> 
> The area where no civilians are supposed to be, is Gaza. Where the fuck are they supposed to go?  And just because you drop leaflets, doesn't change the fact that it is illegal to target civilians who play no role in the hostilities.  Targets must be of a military nature.  Treating the entire population as the enemy, is a war crime.
Click to expand...


*doesn't change the fact that it is illegal to target civilians who play no role in the hostilities.  
*
And that's why Pallie rockets are war crimes.

* Targets must be of a military nature.
*
Hamas military targets are placed in civilian areas. That's another war crime by Hamas.


----------



## rylah

*IDF destroys Hamas tunnels, IED detonated on Gaza border*

An improvised explosive device (IED) was detonated near the perimeter fence of the Gaza Strip on Saturday.

Israel Defence Force (IDF) personnel were not in the area and no one was injured.  In response to the IED attack, the Israeli Air Force (IAF) bombed Hamas targets in Gaza on Saturday night and the IDF destroyed a Hamas observation post with artillery fire. Saturday’s IED explosion was the fifth in the last three months.
IDF destroys Hamas tunnels, IED detonated on Gaza border - BICOM

**


----------



## RoccoR

RE:  Israeli forces shoot unarmed protesters from across Gaza security fence, killing at least 15
※→  Billo_Really,  et al,

Oh, for heaven's sake...



Billo_Really said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> That is counter to You own logic, was there ever a war against Egyptian occupation?
> 
> 
> 
> Because Egypt doesn't occupy Palestinian land. That's why.
Click to expand...

*(COMMENT)*

OK, in 1948 did not place under occupation territory.  The Israelis had sovereign territory, and territory under the Armistice Agreements.

At the conclusion of the 1967 War, Israel had:

Sovereign territory
Territory formerly under the sovereignty of Jordan.
Territory formwerly under the Military Governorship of Egypt.
Territorial fragments formerly under the Administration IAW the Armistice.
Today, let's see.  Israel has:

Sovereign territory _(including annexations; and  territorial boundaries from the Treaties with Jordan and Egypt)_.

Territory formerly under the sovereignty of Jordan.
Territorial fragments formerly under the Administration of the Armistice.

Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## RetiredGySgt

Billo_Really said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> That is counter to You own logic, was there ever a war against Egyptian occupation?
> 
> 
> 
> Because Egypt doesn't occupy Palestinian land. That's why.
> 
> 
> 
> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yet they shoot rockets at us and not Egypt
> they send their kids to explode in Israel and not Egypt.
> The answer is simple - they consider Egyptians muslim brothers and Jews sworn enemies , and they know full well that  Egypt will give them the Arab treatment they receive all around in the countries where they start  their suicidal wars (Jordan, Lebanon)
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> They shoot rockets at Israel in response to the brutal occupation Israel has maintained for almost a half century.  The occupation is the cause of all the violence.
> 
> 
> 
> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah they didn't migrate, those Arabian tribes just came into existence out of nowhere, this one for example is the tribe of their latest "Stab 'em all" poster child Ahed Tamimi, her tribe owns Qatar:
> 
> *Arabian tribes: Tamimi tribe*
> 
> The tribe of *Banu Tamim* (Arabic: بـنـو تـمـيـم‎) or *Bani Tamim* (Arabic: بـني تـمـيـم‎) is one of the main tribes of Arabia.
> 
> Today, descendants from the tribe live in the Arabian Peninsula and neighboring countries such as Saudi Arabia,[1][2] India, Iraq, Kuwait, Jordan, Syria, Qatar, Oman, Yemen, Bahrain, United Arab Emirates, Iran, Lebanon and Palestine. The word _Tamim_ in Arabic means strong and solid. It can also mean perfection.[3]
> 
> *Dynasties[edit]*
> 
> The Aghlabid dynasty
> The Al Thani, ruling family of Qatar. (See House of Thani)
> The Al ash-Sheikh family of the Grand Muftis of the Emirate of Diriyah, then the Emirate of Najd and now modern day Saudi Arabia (Religious Dynasty).
> Al Khater – a prestigious family of the middle east based primarily in Qatar, Saudi Arabia, and Bahrain
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Arabian tribes: tribe of Abbas
> 
> The *Banu Abbas* (Arabic: بنو عباس‎) are an Arabian tribe, descendants of Al-‘Abbas ibn ‘Abd al-Muttalib. The caliphs of the Banu Abbas served as heads of the Muslim community for a period of five centuries (from 750 until the sack of Baghdad in 1258).[2] This was the Abbasid caliphate.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Listen jerkoff, there is no denying that Arabs were the majority population in the area.  And Zionists were the racist pricks who immigrated there.
> 
> 
> 
> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> Half the Arabs who whine about Jews have their huge ancestral lands, and whole countries under the control in Arabia, and the other half are Egyptians. And I didn't count the Kurdish families of soldiers of Saldin.
> 
> The war started when Arabs saw that Jews began raising their heads and organizing a movement to protect them from Arab pogroms in Syria- Palestine.
> Modern Zionism sparked as an answer to the Damascus affair and the waves of Arab pogroms at the time.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Wrong.  The war started when Zionists started treating the indigenous residents like garbage, enacting racist, apartheid policies in regards land ownership and finally resulting to violence and driving out over 750,000 Palestinians from their homes.
> 
> 
> 
> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> Their choice their consequences. The caliph may go whine and demand Spain as well...
> I'll make the popcorn.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You are not keeping that land.  For the world to allow you to keep what you took in the '67 war, would be like saying it was okay for Germany to annex Poland and that's not going to happen, asshole.
Click to expand...

I see you do not know History AT ALL. The Arab Nations drove the Palestinians out of Israel with threats of murder and death if they stayed  while Arab armies attacked Israel in 1948. That is the facts retard not your perverted spin on it.


----------



## P F Tinmore

RoccoR said:


> RE:  Israeli forces shoot unarmed protesters from across Gaza security fence, killing at least 15
> ※→  Billo_Really,  et al,
> 
> Oh, for heaven's sake...
> 
> 
> 
> Billo_Really said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> That is counter to You own logic, was there ever a war against Egyptian occupation?
> 
> 
> 
> Because Egypt doesn't occupy Palestinian land. That's why.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> *(COMMENT)*
> 
> OK, in 1948 did not place under occupation territory.  The Israelis had sovereign territory, and territory under the Armistice Agreements.
> 
> At the conclusion of the 1967 War, Israel had:
> 
> Sovereign territory
> Territory formerly under the sovereignty of Jordan.
> Territory formwerly under the Military Governorship of Egypt.
> Territorial fragments formerly under the Administration IAW the Armistice.
> Today, let's see.  Israel has:
> 
> Sovereign territory _(including annexations; and  territorial boundaries from the Treaties with Jordan and Egypt)_.
> 
> Territory formerly under the sovereignty of Jordan.
> Territorial fragments formerly under the Administration of the Armistice.
> 
> Most Respectfully,
> R
Click to expand...




RoccoR said:


> OK, in 1948 did not place under occupation territory. The Israelis had sovereign territory, and territory under the Armistice Agreements.


Israel had no territory under the armistice agreements.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot

P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> 
> RE:  Israeli forces shoot unarmed protesters from across Gaza security fence, killing at least 15
> ※→  Billo_Really,  et al,
> 
> Oh, for heaven's sake...
> 
> 
> 
> Billo_Really said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> That is counter to You own logic, was there ever a war against Egyptian occupation?
> 
> 
> 
> Because Egypt doesn't occupy Palestinian land. That's why.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> *(COMMENT)*
> 
> OK, in 1948 did not place under occupation territory.  The Israelis had sovereign territory, and territory under the Armistice Agreements.
> 
> At the conclusion of the 1967 War, Israel had:
> 
> Sovereign territory
> Territory formerly under the sovereignty of Jordan.
> Territory formwerly under the Military Governorship of Egypt.
> Territorial fragments formerly under the Administration IAW the Armistice.
> Today, let's see.  Israel has:
> 
> Sovereign territory _(including annexations; and  territorial boundaries from the Treaties with Jordan and Egypt)_.
> 
> Territory formerly under the sovereignty of Jordan.
> Territorial fragments formerly under the Administration of the Armistice.
> 
> Most Respectfully,
> R
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> 
> OK, in 1948 did not place under occupation territory. The Israelis had sovereign territory, and territory under the Armistice Agreements.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Israel had no territory under the armistice agreements.
Click to expand...


*Israel had no territory under the armistice agreements. 
*
So who had the territory?
It wasn't the Arab "Palestinians".


----------



## P F Tinmore

Toddsterpatriot said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> 
> RE:  Israeli forces shoot unarmed protesters from across Gaza security fence, killing at least 15
> ※→  Billo_Really,  et al,
> 
> Oh, for heaven's sake...
> 
> 
> 
> Billo_Really said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> That is counter to You own logic, was there ever a war against Egyptian occupation?
> 
> 
> 
> Because Egypt doesn't occupy Palestinian land. That's why.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> *(COMMENT)*
> 
> OK, in 1948 did not place under occupation territory.  The Israelis had sovereign territory, and territory under the Armistice Agreements.
> 
> At the conclusion of the 1967 War, Israel had:
> 
> Sovereign territory
> Territory formerly under the sovereignty of Jordan.
> Territory formwerly under the Military Governorship of Egypt.
> Territorial fragments formerly under the Administration IAW the Armistice.
> Today, let's see.  Israel has:
> 
> Sovereign territory _(including annexations; and  territorial boundaries from the Treaties with Jordan and Egypt)_.
> 
> Territory formerly under the sovereignty of Jordan.
> Territorial fragments formerly under the Administration of the Armistice.
> 
> Most Respectfully,
> R
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> 
> OK, in 1948 did not place under occupation territory. The Israelis had sovereign territory, and territory under the Armistice Agreements.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Israel had no territory under the armistice agreements.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> *Israel had no territory under the armistice agreements.
> *
> So who had the territory?
> It wasn't the Arab "Palestinians".
Click to expand...


Deflection.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot

P F Tinmore said:


> Toddsterpatriot said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> 
> RE:  Israeli forces shoot unarmed protesters from across Gaza security fence, killing at least 15
> ※→  Billo_Really,  et al,
> 
> Oh, for heaven's sake...
> 
> 
> 
> Billo_Really said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> That is counter to You own logic, was there ever a war against Egyptian occupation?
> 
> 
> 
> Because Egypt doesn't occupy Palestinian land. That's why.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> *(COMMENT)*
> 
> OK, in 1948 did not place under occupation territory.  The Israelis had sovereign territory, and territory under the Armistice Agreements.
> 
> At the conclusion of the 1967 War, Israel had:
> 
> Sovereign territory
> Territory formerly under the sovereignty of Jordan.
> Territory formwerly under the Military Governorship of Egypt.
> Territorial fragments formerly under the Administration IAW the Armistice.
> Today, let's see.  Israel has:
> 
> Sovereign territory _(including annexations; and  territorial boundaries from the Treaties with Jordan and Egypt)_.
> 
> Territory formerly under the sovereignty of Jordan.
> Territorial fragments formerly under the Administration of the Armistice.
> 
> Most Respectfully,
> R
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> 
> OK, in 1948 did not place under occupation territory. The Israelis had sovereign territory, and territory under the Armistice Agreements.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Israel had no territory under the armistice agreements.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> *Israel had no territory under the armistice agreements.
> *
> So who had the territory?
> It wasn't the Arab "Palestinians".
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Deflection.
Click to expand...


Avoidance.


----------



## Ropey

PF is about to see his dreams smashed.

The dreams of ending Israel... while pretending to 'concern' for all lives.

His nightmare is about to begin.

The one where Jordan is the _Palestinian _State ... yet they are not in control of it due to the Jordanian/GCC controls.

And none of it has to do with Jews.

Yep, that's a nightmare for old PF.

Very few lives lost on either side.

smfh


----------



## Ropey

The last thing the Arabs Muslims want is a Secular & Communist Arab state and they've been steaming for a generation and a half over the cultural Marxists who had hijacked the Palestinian question from the Arabs... in order to effect such a disgusting _Secular _creation.

Then the EU, etc. . . gained control. Then NATO. Then the Marxist division of Hamas and Fatah. Then the Iranian control of the Hamas.

Now the Arab Muslim countries are working to expel the cultural Marxists and the Iranian Supported Hamas.


----------



## Ropey

This is the game of the leftist cultural Marxist.  It's almost over.

Palestinian TV: The “Holocaust Is A Lie” Perpetrated By Jews “In Collusion With Hitler".

Poor PF.  All turned to dust, his hopes for an end to Israel.


----------



## Mindful

Just give peace a chance..




Zionist Pugs Cartoon: Peace!
They just want peace…
ISRAELLYCOOL.COM


----------



## RoccoR

RE:  Israeli forces shoot unarmed protesters from across Gaza security fence, killing at least 15
※→  P F Tinmore,  et al, 

And here we have a believer in revisionist history.



P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> 
> RE:  Israeli forces shoot unarmed protesters from across Gaza security fence, killing at least 15
> ※→  Billo_Really,  et al,
> 
> Oh, for heaven's sake...
> 
> 
> 
> Billo_Really said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> That is counter to You own logic, was there ever a war against Egyptian occupation?
> 
> 
> 
> Because Egypt doesn't occupy Palestinian land. That's why.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> *(COMMENT)*
> 
> OK, in 1948 did not place under occupation territory.  The Israelis had sovereign territory, and territory under the Armistice Agreements.
> 
> At the conclusion of the 1967 War, Israel had:
> 
> Sovereign territory
> Territory formerly under the sovereignty of Jordan.
> Territory formerly under the Military Governorship of Egypt.
> Territorial fragments formerly under the Administration IAW the Armistice.
> Today, let's see.  Israel has:
> 
> Sovereign territory _(including annexations; and territorial boundaries from the Treaties with Jordan and Egypt)_.
> 
> Territory formerly under the sovereignty of Jordan.
> Territorial fragments formerly under the Administration of the Armistice.
> 
> Most Respectfully,
> R
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> 
> OK, in 1948 did not place under occupation territory. The Israelis had sovereign territory, and territory under the Armistice Agreements.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Israel had no territory under the armistice agreements.
Click to expand...

*(COMMENT)*

In the 1949 Armistice arrangements, there was a difference between the original apportionment outlining Part I, A/RES/181 (II) and the territory under the effective control outlined in the Armistice Agreements.  The difference between the two demarcations (1949 to 1967) is the territory recognized as being under administration and effective control after the Armistices were put in place. 

Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## Billo_Really

RoccoR said:


> RE:  Israeli forces shoot unarmed protesters from across Gaza security fence, killing at least 15
> ※→  Billo_Really,  et al,
> 
> Oh, for heaven's sake...
> 
> 
> 
> Billo_Really said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> That is counter to You own logic, was there ever a war against Egyptian occupation?
> 
> 
> 
> Because Egypt doesn't occupy Palestinian land. That's why.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> *(COMMENT)*
> 
> OK, in 1948 did not place under occupation territory.  The Israelis had sovereign territory, and territory under the Armistice Agreements.
> 
> At the conclusion of the 1967 War, Israel had:
> 
> Sovereign territory
> Territory formerly under the sovereignty of Jordan.
> Territory formwerly under the Military Governorship of Egypt.
> Territorial fragments formerly under the Administration IAW the Armistice.
> Today, let's see.  Israel has:
> 
> Sovereign territory _(including annexations; and  territorial boundaries from the Treaties with Jordan and Egypt)_.
> 
> Territory formerly under the sovereignty of Jordan.
> Territorial fragments formerly under the Administration of the Armistice.
> 
> Most Respectfully,
> R
Click to expand...

In 1948, Israel took more land than that was allocated to it.  They took it by force and drove out 3/4 million Palestinians from the area.

In 1967, Israel took the West Bank, Golan Heights, Gaza and East Jerusalem in that war.  That's the land Israel occupy's to this date.  And that's the land, that will never be Israeli territory.


----------



## Billo_Really

RetiredGySgt said:


> I see you do not know History AT ALL. The Arab Nations drove the Palestinians out of Israel with threats of murder and death if they stayed  while Arab armies attacked Israel in 1948. That is the facts retard not your perverted spin on it.


Listen you little Israeli kiss-ass, no one leaves there home they've been living at for generations, just because someone comes up one day and tells them to go.  They were driven out by violence.  And that violence was at the hands of Jewish terrorist groups like Irgun.

BTW, the Arab armies went in to restore order and to ensure the indigenous Arabs land rights.  You don't tell someone to leave their home, when you are there to protect their home.

Why are you such a little Israeli bitch?


----------



## P F Tinmore

RoccoR said:


> RE:  Israeli forces shoot unarmed protesters from across Gaza security fence, killing at least 15
> ※→  P F Tinmore,  et al,
> 
> And here we have a believer in revisionist history.
> 
> 
> 
> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> 
> RE:  Israeli forces shoot unarmed protesters from across Gaza security fence, killing at least 15
> ※→  Billo_Really,  et al,
> 
> Oh, for heaven's sake...
> 
> 
> 
> Billo_Really said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> That is counter to You own logic, was there ever a war against Egyptian occupation?
> 
> 
> 
> Because Egypt doesn't occupy Palestinian land. That's why.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> *(COMMENT)*
> 
> OK, in 1948 did not place under occupation territory.  The Israelis had sovereign territory, and territory under the Armistice Agreements.
> 
> At the conclusion of the 1967 War, Israel had:
> 
> Sovereign territory
> Territory formerly under the sovereignty of Jordan.
> Territory formerly under the Military Governorship of Egypt.
> Territorial fragments formerly under the Administration IAW the Armistice.
> Today, let's see.  Israel has:
> 
> Sovereign territory _(including annexations; and territorial boundaries from the Treaties with Jordan and Egypt)_.
> 
> Territory formerly under the sovereignty of Jordan.
> Territorial fragments formerly under the Administration of the Armistice.
> 
> Most Respectfully,
> R
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> 
> OK, in 1948 did not place under occupation territory. The Israelis had sovereign territory, and territory under the Armistice Agreements.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Israel had no territory under the armistice agreements.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> *(COMMENT)*
> 
> In the 1949 Armistice arrangements, there was a difference between the original apportionment outlining Part I, A/RES/181 (II) and the territory under the effective control outlined in the Armistice Agreements.  The difference between the two demarcations (1949 to 1967) is the territory recognized as being under administration and effective control after the Armistices were put in place.
> 
> Most Respectfully,
> R
Click to expand...

The armistice agreements cut Palestine into three areas of occupation. There was not a word of difference between Egypt, Jordan, and Israel. Each had *control* of territory defined by lines that were not political or territorial boundaries.


----------



## P F Tinmore

Billo_Really said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> 
> RE:  Israeli forces shoot unarmed protesters from across Gaza security fence, killing at least 15
> ※→  Billo_Really,  et al,
> 
> Oh, for heaven's sake...
> 
> 
> 
> Billo_Really said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> That is counter to You own logic, was there ever a war against Egyptian occupation?
> 
> 
> 
> Because Egypt doesn't occupy Palestinian land. That's why.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> *(COMMENT)*
> 
> OK, in 1948 did not place under occupation territory.  The Israelis had sovereign territory, and territory under the Armistice Agreements.
> 
> At the conclusion of the 1967 War, Israel had:
> 
> Sovereign territory
> Territory formerly under the sovereignty of Jordan.
> Territory formwerly under the Military Governorship of Egypt.
> Territorial fragments formerly under the Administration IAW the Armistice.
> Today, let's see.  Israel has:
> 
> Sovereign territory _(including annexations; and  territorial boundaries from the Treaties with Jordan and Egypt)_.
> 
> Territory formerly under the sovereignty of Jordan.
> Territorial fragments formerly under the Administration of the Armistice.
> 
> Most Respectfully,
> R
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> In 1948, Israel took more land than that was allocated to it.  They took it by force and drove out 3/4 million Palestinians from the area.
> 
> In 1967, Israel took the West Bank, Golan Heights, Gaza and East Jerusalem in that war.  That's the land Israel occupy's to this date.  And that's the land, that will never be Israeli territory.
Click to expand...




Billo_Really said:


> n 1948, Israel took more land than that was allocated to it.


Resolution 181 didn't happen. All of that territory was captured by war.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot

Billo_Really said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> 
> RE:  Israeli forces shoot unarmed protesters from across Gaza security fence, killing at least 15
> ※→  Billo_Really,  et al,
> 
> Oh, for heaven's sake...
> 
> 
> 
> Billo_Really said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> That is counter to You own logic, was there ever a war against Egyptian occupation?
> 
> 
> 
> Because Egypt doesn't occupy Palestinian land. That's why.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> *(COMMENT)*
> 
> OK, in 1948 did not place under occupation territory.  The Israelis had sovereign territory, and territory under the Armistice Agreements.
> 
> At the conclusion of the 1967 War, Israel had:
> 
> Sovereign territory
> Territory formerly under the sovereignty of Jordan.
> Territory formwerly under the Military Governorship of Egypt.
> Territorial fragments formerly under the Administration IAW the Armistice.
> Today, let's see.  Israel has:
> 
> Sovereign territory _(including annexations; and  territorial boundaries from the Treaties with Jordan and Egypt)_.
> 
> Territory formerly under the sovereignty of Jordan.
> Territorial fragments formerly under the Administration of the Armistice.
> 
> Most Respectfully,
> R
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> In 1948, Israel took more land than that was allocated to it.  They took it by force and drove out 3/4 million Palestinians from the area.
> 
> In 1967, Israel took the West Bank, Golan Heights, Gaza and East Jerusalem in that war.  That's the land Israel occupy's to this date.  And that's the land, that will never be Israeli territory.
Click to expand...

*
In 1948, Israel took more land than that was allocated to it. 
*
Yup, they kicked some Arab ass.

*In 1967, Israel took the West Bank, Golan Heights, Gaza and East Jerusalem in that war.
*
Yup, kicked Arab ass again.

*That's the land Israel occupy's to this date.
*
And they're gonna keep most of it.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot

Billo_Really said:


> RetiredGySgt said:
> 
> 
> 
> I see you do not know History AT ALL. The Arab Nations drove the Palestinians out of Israel with threats of murder and death if they stayed  while Arab armies attacked Israel in 1948. That is the facts retard not your perverted spin on it.
> 
> 
> 
> Listen you little Israeli kiss-ass, no one leaves there home they've been living at for generations, just because someone comes up one day and tells them to go.  They were driven out by violence.  And that violence was at the hands of Jewish terrorist groups like Irgun.
> 
> BTW, the Arab armies went in to restore order and to ensure the indigenous Arabs land rights.  You don't tell someone to leave their home, when you are there to protect their home.
> 
> Why are you such a little Israeli bitch?
Click to expand...


*BTW, the Arab armies went in to restore order and to ensure the indigenous Arabs land rights.  
*
Big mistake........


----------



## Mindful

Billo_Really said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> 
> RE:  Israeli forces shoot unarmed protesters from across Gaza security fence, killing at least 15
> ※→  Billo_Really,  et al,
> 
> Oh, for heaven's sake...
> 
> 
> 
> Billo_Really said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> That is counter to You own logic, was there ever a war against Egyptian occupation?
> 
> 
> 
> Because Egypt doesn't occupy Palestinian land. That's why.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> *(COMMENT)*
> 
> OK, in 1948 did not place under occupation territory.  The Israelis had sovereign territory, and territory under the Armistice Agreements.
> 
> At the conclusion of the 1967 War, Israel had:
> 
> Sovereign territory
> Territory formerly under the sovereignty of Jordan.
> Territory formwerly under the Military Governorship of Egypt.
> Territorial fragments formerly under the Administration IAW the Armistice.
> Today, let's see.  Israel has:
> 
> Sovereign territory _(including annexations; and  territorial boundaries from the Treaties with Jordan and Egypt)_.
> 
> Territory formerly under the sovereignty of Jordan.
> Territorial fragments formerly under the Administration of the Armistice.
> 
> Most Respectfully,
> R
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> In 1948, Israel took more land than that was allocated to it.  They took it by force and drove out 3/4 million Palestinians from the area.
> 
> In 1967, Israel took the West Bank, Golan Heights, Gaza and East Jerusalem in that war.  That's the land Israel occupy's to this date.  And that's the land, that will never be Israeli territory.
Click to expand...


Israel settled for far less land than was promised to it.

How many Arab armies attacked the fledgling state after said state was founded? Do you know?

And do you know the reason/rationale for taking the Golan? Without any of your revisionist nonsense?


----------



## Toddsterpatriot

P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> 
> RE:  Israeli forces shoot unarmed protesters from across Gaza security fence, killing at least 15
> ※→  Billo_Really,  et al,
> 
> Oh, for heaven's sake...
> 
> 
> 
> Billo_Really said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> That is counter to You own logic, was there ever a war against Egyptian occupation?
> 
> 
> 
> Because Egypt doesn't occupy Palestinian land. That's why.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> *(COMMENT)*
> 
> OK, in 1948 did not place under occupation territory.  The Israelis had sovereign territory, and territory under the Armistice Agreements.
> 
> At the conclusion of the 1967 War, Israel had:
> 
> Sovereign territory
> Territory formerly under the sovereignty of Jordan.
> Territory formwerly under the Military Governorship of Egypt.
> Territorial fragments formerly under the Administration IAW the Armistice.
> Today, let's see.  Israel has:
> 
> Sovereign territory _(including annexations; and  territorial boundaries from the Treaties with Jordan and Egypt)_.
> 
> Territory formerly under the sovereignty of Jordan.
> Territorial fragments formerly under the Administration of the Armistice.
> 
> Most Respectfully,
> R
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> 
> OK, in 1948 did not place under occupation territory. The Israelis had sovereign territory, and territory under the Armistice Agreements.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Israel had no territory under the armistice agreements.
Click to expand...


*Israel had no territory under the armistice agreements. 
*
You never did explain who had the territory under the armistice agreements.


----------



## P F Tinmore

Mindful said:


> Billo_Really said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> 
> RE:  Israeli forces shoot unarmed protesters from across Gaza security fence, killing at least 15
> ※→  Billo_Really,  et al,
> 
> Oh, for heaven's sake...
> 
> 
> 
> Billo_Really said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> That is counter to You own logic, was there ever a war against Egyptian occupation?
> 
> 
> 
> Because Egypt doesn't occupy Palestinian land. That's why.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> *(COMMENT)*
> 
> OK, in 1948 did not place under occupation territory.  The Israelis had sovereign territory, and territory under the Armistice Agreements.
> 
> At the conclusion of the 1967 War, Israel had:
> 
> Sovereign territory
> Territory formerly under the sovereignty of Jordan.
> Territory formwerly under the Military Governorship of Egypt.
> Territorial fragments formerly under the Administration IAW the Armistice.
> Today, let's see.  Israel has:
> 
> Sovereign territory _(including annexations; and  territorial boundaries from the Treaties with Jordan and Egypt)_.
> 
> Territory formerly under the sovereignty of Jordan.
> Territorial fragments formerly under the Administration of the Armistice.
> 
> Most Respectfully,
> R
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> In 1948, Israel took more land than that was allocated to it.  They took it by force and drove out 3/4 million Palestinians from the area.
> 
> In 1967, Israel took the West Bank, Golan Heights, Gaza and East Jerusalem in that war.  That's the land Israel occupy's to this date.  And that's the land, that will never be Israeli territory.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Israel settled for far less land than was promised to it.
> 
> How many Arab armies attacked the fledgling state after said state was founded? Do you know?
> 
> And do you know the reason/rationale for taking the Golan? Without any of your revisionist nonsense?
Click to expand...




Mindful said:


> How many Arab armies attacked the fledgling state after said state was founded? Do you know?


Yeah, none. All of the fighting took place in Palestine.


----------



## P F Tinmore

Toddsterpatriot said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> 
> RE:  Israeli forces shoot unarmed protesters from across Gaza security fence, killing at least 15
> ※→  Billo_Really,  et al,
> 
> Oh, for heaven's sake...
> 
> 
> 
> Billo_Really said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> That is counter to You own logic, was there ever a war against Egyptian occupation?
> 
> 
> 
> Because Egypt doesn't occupy Palestinian land. That's why.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> *(COMMENT)*
> 
> OK, in 1948 did not place under occupation territory.  The Israelis had sovereign territory, and territory under the Armistice Agreements.
> 
> At the conclusion of the 1967 War, Israel had:
> 
> Sovereign territory
> Territory formerly under the sovereignty of Jordan.
> Territory formwerly under the Military Governorship of Egypt.
> Territorial fragments formerly under the Administration IAW the Armistice.
> Today, let's see.  Israel has:
> 
> Sovereign territory _(including annexations; and  territorial boundaries from the Treaties with Jordan and Egypt)_.
> 
> Territory formerly under the sovereignty of Jordan.
> Territorial fragments formerly under the Administration of the Armistice.
> 
> Most Respectfully,
> R
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> 
> OK, in 1948 did not place under occupation territory. The Israelis had sovereign territory, and territory under the Armistice Agreements.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Israel had no territory under the armistice agreements.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> *Israel had no territory under the armistice agreements.
> *
> You never did explain who had the territory under the armistice agreements.
Click to expand...

Not Israel. The UN had no territory. The Mandate had no territory. So, where did Israel get it?
Link?


----------



## Hollie

P F Tinmore said:


> Toddsterpatriot said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> 
> RE:  Israeli forces shoot unarmed protesters from across Gaza security fence, killing at least 15
> ※→  Billo_Really,  et al,
> 
> Oh, for heaven's sake...
> 
> 
> 
> Billo_Really said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> That is counter to You own logic, was there ever a war against Egyptian occupation?
> 
> 
> 
> Because Egypt doesn't occupy Palestinian land. That's why.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> *(COMMENT)*
> 
> OK, in 1948 did not place under occupation territory.  The Israelis had sovereign territory, and territory under the Armistice Agreements.
> 
> At the conclusion of the 1967 War, Israel had:
> 
> Sovereign territory
> Territory formerly under the sovereignty of Jordan.
> Territory formwerly under the Military Governorship of Egypt.
> Territorial fragments formerly under the Administration IAW the Armistice.
> Today, let's see.  Israel has:
> 
> Sovereign territory _(including annexations; and  territorial boundaries from the Treaties with Jordan and Egypt)_.
> 
> Territory formerly under the sovereignty of Jordan.
> Territorial fragments formerly under the Administration of the Armistice.
> 
> Most Respectfully,
> R
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> 
> OK, in 1948 did not place under occupation territory. The Israelis had sovereign territory, and territory under the Armistice Agreements.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Israel had no territory under the armistice agreements.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> *Israel had no territory under the armistice agreements.
> *
> You never did explain who had the territory under the armistice agreements.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Not Israel. The UN had no territory. The Mandate had no territory. So, where did Israel get it?
> Link?
Click to expand...


This is where you launch into your "Treaty of Lausanne",nonsensical rant. 

Link?


----------



## harmonica

Billo_Really said:


> harmonica said:
> 
> 
> 
> ​
> this proves nothing
> ..where is the POLICY!! ? the Pals kidnap civilians then kill them/etc --NO DOUBT about it
> ..these excerpts do not make sense---there is no context--no overall story.....
> ..so there is an area where no civilians are not supposed to be--just like in the Vietnam War--if civilians are not supposed to be there, and they get killed--it's the civilians fault!!!
> from your link:
> 
> the US did this in WW2 !!! same thing
> Through much of World War II, Allied bombers would sometimes drop leaflets warning of impending bombing of a city.
> Warning Leaflets
> ..
> 
> 
> 
> The area where no civilians are supposed to be, is Gaza. Where the fuck are they supposed to go?  And just because you drop leaflets, doesn't change the fact that it is illegal to target civilians who play no role in the hostilities.  Targets must be of a military nature.  Treating the entire population as the enemy, is a war crime.
Click to expand...

you must have zero knowledge on combat/war/warfare
civilians usually always get killed in war zones/conflicts !!!!! this is just a fact !!
please do some reading on the subject


----------



## RetiredGySgt

Billo_Really said:


> RetiredGySgt said:
> 
> 
> 
> I see you do not know History AT ALL. The Arab Nations drove the Palestinians out of Israel with threats of murder and death if they stayed  while Arab armies attacked Israel in 1948. That is the facts retard not your perverted spin on it.
> 
> 
> 
> Listen you little Israeli kiss-ass, no one leaves there home they've been living at for generations, just because someone comes up one day and tells them to go.  They were driven out by violence.  And that violence was at the hands of Jewish terrorist groups like Irgun.
> 
> BTW, the Arab armies went in to restore order and to ensure the indigenous Arabs land rights.  You don't tell someone to leave their home, when you are there to protect their home.
> 
> Why are you such a little Israeli bitch?
Click to expand...

LOL you are BEYOND retarded, the Arabs announced the threat and ordered the Arabs out on pain of death, historical fact that you want to ignore, pathetic.


----------



## P F Tinmore

harmonica said:


> Billo_Really said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> harmonica said:
> 
> 
> 
> ​
> this proves nothing
> ..where is the POLICY!! ? the Pals kidnap civilians then kill them/etc --NO DOUBT about it
> ..these excerpts do not make sense---there is no context--no overall story.....
> ..so there is an area where no civilians are not supposed to be--just like in the Vietnam War--if civilians are not supposed to be there, and they get killed--it's the civilians fault!!!
> from your link:
> 
> the US did this in WW2 !!! same thing
> Through much of World War II, Allied bombers would sometimes drop leaflets warning of impending bombing of a city.
> Warning Leaflets
> ..
> 
> 
> 
> The area where no civilians are supposed to be, is Gaza. Where the fuck are they supposed to go?  And just because you drop leaflets, doesn't change the fact that it is illegal to target civilians who play no role in the hostilities.  Targets must be of a military nature.  Treating the entire population as the enemy, is a war crime.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> you must have zero knowledge on combat/war/warfare
> civilians usually always get killed in war zones/conflicts !!!!! this is just a fact !!
> please do some reading on the subject
Click to expand...

Who said it was a war zone?


----------



## Indeependent

P F Tinmore said:


> harmonica said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Billo_Really said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> harmonica said:
> 
> 
> 
> ​
> this proves nothing
> ..where is the POLICY!! ? the Pals kidnap civilians then kill them/etc --NO DOUBT about it
> ..these excerpts do not make sense---there is no context--no overall story.....
> ..so there is an area where no civilians are not supposed to be--just like in the Vietnam War--if civilians are not supposed to be there, and they get killed--it's the civilians fault!!!
> from your link:
> 
> the US did this in WW2 !!! same thing
> Through much of World War II, Allied bombers would sometimes drop leaflets warning of impending bombing of a city.
> Warning Leaflets
> ..
> 
> 
> 
> The area where no civilians are supposed to be, is Gaza. Where the fuck are they supposed to go?  And just because you drop leaflets, doesn't change the fact that it is illegal to target civilians who play no role in the hostilities.  Targets must be of a military nature.  Treating the entire population as the enemy, is a war crime.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> you must have zero knowledge on combat/war/warfare
> civilians usually always get killed in war zones/conflicts !!!!! this is just a fact !!
> please do some reading on the subject
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Who said it was a war zone?
Click to expand...

Actions, not words.


----------



## harmonica

P F Tinmore said:


> harmonica said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Billo_Really said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> harmonica said:
> 
> 
> 
> ​
> this proves nothing
> ..where is the POLICY!! ? the Pals kidnap civilians then kill them/etc --NO DOUBT about it
> ..these excerpts do not make sense---there is no context--no overall story.....
> ..so there is an area where no civilians are not supposed to be--just like in the Vietnam War--if civilians are not supposed to be there, and they get killed--it's the civilians fault!!!
> from your link:
> 
> the US did this in WW2 !!! same thing
> Through much of World War II, Allied bombers would sometimes drop leaflets warning of impending bombing of a city.
> Warning Leaflets
> ..
> 
> 
> 
> The area where no civilians are supposed to be, is Gaza. Where the fuck are they supposed to go?  And just because you drop leaflets, doesn't change the fact that it is illegal to target civilians who play no role in the hostilities.  Targets must be of a military nature.  Treating the entire population as the enemy, is a war crime.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> you must have zero knowledge on combat/war/warfare
> civilians usually always get killed in war zones/conflicts !!!!! this is just a fact !!
> please do some reading on the subject
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Who said it was a war zone?
Click to expand...

please read more carefully/slowly..read it again 
conflict
con·flict
_noun_
ˈkänˌflikt/

*1*.
a serious disagreement or argument, typically a protracted one.
"the eternal *conflict between* the sexes"
synonyms: dispute, quarrel, squabble, disagreement, dissension, clash;


----------



## harmonica

the Arabs said F-YOU to the UN and peace in 1947
since then, the Arabs and Pals have vowed to eradicate Israel
the Pals are lucky the Israelis have shown great restraint in using force


----------



## Toddsterpatriot

P F Tinmore said:


> Toddsterpatriot said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> 
> RE:  Israeli forces shoot unarmed protesters from across Gaza security fence, killing at least 15
> ※→  Billo_Really,  et al,
> 
> Oh, for heaven's sake...
> 
> 
> 
> Billo_Really said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> That is counter to You own logic, was there ever a war against Egyptian occupation?
> 
> 
> 
> Because Egypt doesn't occupy Palestinian land. That's why.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> *(COMMENT)*
> 
> OK, in 1948 did not place under occupation territory.  The Israelis had sovereign territory, and territory under the Armistice Agreements.
> 
> At the conclusion of the 1967 War, Israel had:
> 
> Sovereign territory
> Territory formerly under the sovereignty of Jordan.
> Territory formwerly under the Military Governorship of Egypt.
> Territorial fragments formerly under the Administration IAW the Armistice.
> Today, let's see.  Israel has:
> 
> Sovereign territory _(including annexations; and  territorial boundaries from the Treaties with Jordan and Egypt)_.
> 
> Territory formerly under the sovereignty of Jordan.
> Territorial fragments formerly under the Administration of the Armistice.
> 
> Most Respectfully,
> R
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> 
> OK, in 1948 did not place under occupation territory. The Israelis had sovereign territory, and territory under the Armistice Agreements.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Israel had no territory under the armistice agreements.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> *Israel had no territory under the armistice agreements.
> *
> You never did explain who had the territory under the armistice agreements.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Not Israel. The UN had no territory. The Mandate had no territory. So, where did Israel get it?
> Link?
Click to expand...


I notice you never explain who held the territory after the armistice agreements.


----------



## Mindful

Toddsterpatriot said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Toddsterpatriot said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> 
> RE:  Israeli forces shoot unarmed protesters from across Gaza security fence, killing at least 15
> ※→  Billo_Really,  et al,
> 
> Oh, for heaven's sake...
> 
> 
> 
> Billo_Really said:
> 
> 
> 
> Because Egypt doesn't occupy Palestinian land. That's why.
> 
> 
> 
> *(COMMENT)*
> 
> OK, in 1948 did not place under occupation territory.  The Israelis had sovereign territory, and territory under the Armistice Agreements.
> 
> At the conclusion of the 1967 War, Israel had:
> 
> Sovereign territory
> Territory formerly under the sovereignty of Jordan.
> Territory formwerly under the Military Governorship of Egypt.
> Territorial fragments formerly under the Administration IAW the Armistice.
> Today, let's see.  Israel has:
> 
> Sovereign territory _(including annexations; and  territorial boundaries from the Treaties with Jordan and Egypt)_.
> 
> Territory formerly under the sovereignty of Jordan.
> Territorial fragments formerly under the Administration of the Armistice.
> 
> Most Respectfully,
> R
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> 
> OK, in 1948 did not place under occupation territory. The Israelis had sovereign territory, and territory under the Armistice Agreements.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Israel had no territory under the armistice agreements.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> *Israel had no territory under the armistice agreements.
> *
> You never did explain who had the territory under the armistice agreements.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Not Israel. The UN had no territory. The Mandate had no territory. So, where did Israel get it?
> Link?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I notice you never explain who held the territory after the armistice agreements.
Click to expand...


Do you expect him to?


----------



## Toddsterpatriot

Mindful said:


> Toddsterpatriot said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Toddsterpatriot said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> 
> RE:  Israeli forces shoot unarmed protesters from across Gaza security fence, killing at least 15
> ※→  Billo_Really,  et al,
> 
> Oh, for heaven's sake...
> 
> *(COMMENT)*
> 
> OK, in 1948 did not place under occupation territory.  The Israelis had sovereign territory, and territory under the Armistice Agreements.
> 
> At the conclusion of the 1967 War, Israel had:
> 
> Sovereign territory
> Territory formerly under the sovereignty of Jordan.
> Territory formwerly under the Military Governorship of Egypt.
> Territorial fragments formerly under the Administration IAW the Armistice.
> Today, let's see.  Israel has:
> 
> Sovereign territory _(including annexations; and  territorial boundaries from the Treaties with Jordan and Egypt)_.
> 
> Territory formerly under the sovereignty of Jordan.
> Territorial fragments formerly under the Administration of the Armistice.
> 
> Most Respectfully,
> R
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> 
> OK, in 1948 did not place under occupation territory. The Israelis had sovereign territory, and territory under the Armistice Agreements.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Israel had no territory under the armistice agreements.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> *Israel had no territory under the armistice agreements.
> *
> You never did explain who had the territory under the armistice agreements.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Not Israel. The UN had no territory. The Mandate had no territory. So, where did Israel get it?
> Link?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I notice you never explain who held the territory after the armistice agreements.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Do you expect him to?
Click to expand...


No, but it's amusing to watch him scurry around.


----------



## Mindful

Toddsterpatriot said:


> Mindful said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Toddsterpatriot said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Toddsterpatriot said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> Israel had no territory under the armistice agreements.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Israel had no territory under the armistice agreements.
> *
> You never did explain who had the territory under the armistice agreements.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Not Israel. The UN had no territory. The Mandate had no territory. So, where did Israel get it?
> Link?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I notice you never explain who held the territory after the armistice agreements.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Do you expect him to?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No, but it's amusing to watch him scurry around.
Click to expand...


I wonder if he can say Gaza in a sentence.


----------



## RoccoR

RE:  Israeli forces shoot unarmed protesters from across Gaza security fence, killing at least 15
※→  P F Tinmore, et al,

You can believe the propaganda.  The rest of us can use the official record.

•  Press Release PAL/169 •
17 May 1948





​


P F Tinmore said:


> Resolution 181 didn't happen. All of that territory was captured by war.


*(COMMENT)*

The problem here is that (1) the termination from both the Mandate, (2) the release from the UN Palestine Commission, and (3) the Declaration of independence happen at nearly the same time.  The Right to Sovereignty without interference was mangled by the invasion of the Arab League Forces in the same time frame.

The did not alter the fact that, that part of the Resolution of 181 (II) that was accepted by the Israelis → and that part of the acceptance that was interfered with by the Arab League Invasion → was implemented, as you can see, _supra_...

*(EPILOG)*


*“If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it. *



_Joseph Goebbels_​
Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## RoccoR

RE:  Israeli forces shoot unarmed protesters from across Gaza security fence, killing at least 15
※→  Mindful, et al,

Well, I think you might have a very difficult time finding a "hard promise", prior to 1948, of any true authority that outlines exactly what is promised to whom.  BUT, that is not the real core issue (IMO).

It was rather fortuitous, as it turned-out, that the Arab League took unilateral action and crossed their borders into the Territories.



Mindful said:


> Israel settled for far less land than was promised to it.
> 
> How many Arab armies attacked the fledgling state after said state was founded? Do you know?
> 
> And do you know the reason/rationale for taking the Golan? Without any of your revisionist nonsense?


*(COMMENT)*

On the outbreak of hostilities, when the British relinquished its Mandate over Palestine, the Arab League _(5 Major contributors, 2 minor contributors, several asymmetric volunteer forces)_ entered the territory to ostensibly assist the Palestinian Arabs; the true hidden agenda was to expand their own territorial control.  However, after the engagement and upon the cession of hostilities, when the FEBA was taken into consideration → under the auspices, armistice agreements were signed, Israel had effective control over additional area.  The Armistice Lines were Military Demarcations AND territorial expansion taken by force.

As far as the Golan Heights are concerned, Syrian Military control gave the Syrian forces a set of advantages for rockets, mortars, and various surveillance and targeting system.   This was supported by the JCSM-373-67 (Israel Might be Justified in Retaining Certain Ground).  See this Special Memorandum for the Secretary of Defense with your attention to Paragraph 2b.

People generally get annoyed at me for my response since I publish so much documentation concerning the topic under discussion.  Today, not so much since you are clearly suggesting that my postings are other than supported by facts (revisionist history). 

Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## Shusha

RoccoR said:


> Well, I think you might have a very difficult time finding a "hard promise", prior to 1948, of any true authority that outlines exactly what is promised to whom.



Not so sure about that.  The Mandate for Palestine is pretty definitive that the entire territory, excluding what became Jordan, was to be the Jewish Homeland.  Pretty "hard promise".  And legally binding, don't you agree?


----------



## Mindful

Shusha said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well, I think you might have a very difficult time finding a "hard promise", prior to 1948, of any true authority that outlines exactly what is promised to whom.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Not so sure about that.  The Mandate for Palestine is pretty definitive that the entire territory, excluding what became Jordan, was to be the Jewish Homeland.  Pretty "hard promise".  And legally binding, don't you agree?
Click to expand...


The British didn't want to upset the French = Syria.


----------



## RoccoR

RE:  Israeli forces shoot unarmed protesters from across Gaza security fence, killing at least 15
※→  Shusha,  et al,

No matter what you think the Mandate for Palestine says, the Mandate itself is NOT a promise to, or an obligation to the Jewish People.  It is a communication of a directive between the League of Nations and the British Mandatory as to what the Principal Allied Powers have agreed relative to the administration of the territory of Palestine.

It is NOT an expression of a Promise to the Jewish People.  It is NOT an expression of an Obligation made to the Jewish People.   It does not speak to the Jewish People; only about the Jewish People and the Jewish National Home.



Shusha said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well, I think you might have a very difficult time finding a "hard promise", prior to 1948, of any true authority that outlines exactly what is promised to whom.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Not so sure about that.  The Mandate for Palestine is pretty definitive that the entire territory, excluding what became Jordan, was to be the Jewish Homeland.  Pretty "hard promise".  And legally binding, don't you agree?
Click to expand...

*(COMMENT)*

The Mandate shows an INTENT to "establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people" and instructs → "that the Mandatory should be responsible for putting into effect the declaration originally made on November 2nd, 1917."  But again, it is NOT an enforceable pledge that the Jewish People can make Enforceable.

Having said that, what WAS a general enforceable direction is the:  "_Calls upon_ the inhabitants of Palestine to take such steps as may be necessary on their part to put this plan into effect."  While it is not  "legally binding", to comply with this UN Call is not illegal.

✪   "*Independent Arab* and *Jewish States* and the *Special International Regime for the City of Jerusalem*, set forth in part III of this plan, shall come into existence in Palestine two months after the evacuation of the armed forces of the mandatory Power has been completed but in any case not later than 1 October 1948."

✪   "The Commission shall *instruct the Provisional Councils of Government of both the Arab and Jewish States*, after their formation, to proceed to the establishment of administrative organs of government, central and local;" contained in the "Steps Preparatory to Independence."​
Now with the Plan [A/RES/181(II)], there was a General Call that _"Appeals_ to all Governments and all peoples to refrain from taking action which might hamper or delay the carrying out of these recommendations."  However, the Arab League and attempted to alter the expressed intent by force.  Any conflict resulting from this interference [prohibited by Article 2(4)] is as a result of violating the UN Charter and ignoring the appeal by the UN.

The territory under Israeli control at the time of the Armistice, what a direct consequence of the Arab League provocation and an intentional hampering of the implementation.

✪   It was the responsibility of the UN Palestine Commission "to carry out measures for the establishment of the frontiers of the Arab and Jewish States and the City of Jerusalem in accordance with the general lines of the recommendations of the General Assembly on the partition of Palestine."​
However, the outbreak of Hostilities on the part of the Arab League prevented the accomplishment of the mission and can to an unfavorable consequence that the Arab League had to live with.

NOW, the interesting turn of event happened on 31 July 1988.  On that date, the Jordanian Government cut all ties with the people of the West Bank.  On the First of August 1988, the only government exercising "Effective Control" over the West Bank and the Jewish States and the Special International Regime for the City of Jerusalem was Israel.  It was territory over which any prior sovereign (King of Jordan) has expressly and implicitly relinquished sovereignty; then place in the hands of Israel by default.

✪   The doctrine of _terra nullius_ was really no more than an eighteen-century convention of European international law – it is held that any land which was unoccupied or unsettled could be acquired as a new territory by a sovereign State and that the laws of that State would apply in the new territory.

*The Doctrine of Discovery, Settler Colonialism and the Dakota Access Pipeline*



The Doctrine of Discovery said:


> According to journalist Julian Brave NoiseCat, “Justice John Marshall used the doctrine to support the majority opinion of the court, which found that Indians … could not own, the ancestral homelands where their people had lived, loved, worshipped, married, mourned and died for millennia.” The _Johnson v. M’Intosh_ decision stands to this day. NoiseCat went on to report:
> 
> The doctrine has had a significant influence on Indian law and set a precedent that resonates even in modern decisions. Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg — widely considered the most liberal justice on the Supreme Court — even _cited cases based upon the doctrine as recently as 2005 to deny a land claim_ brought before the court by the Oneida Nation.​To this day, the doctrine continues to be a structural barrier to Indigenous rights to lands, resources, and self-determination (liberation).



Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## P F Tinmore

RoccoR said:


> The did not alter the fact that, that part of the Resolution of 181 (II) that was accepted by the Israelis →


So, the UN had no territory to allot.


----------



## P F Tinmore

Toddsterpatriot said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Toddsterpatriot said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> 
> RE:  Israeli forces shoot unarmed protesters from across Gaza security fence, killing at least 15
> ※→  Billo_Really,  et al,
> 
> Oh, for heaven's sake...
> 
> 
> 
> Billo_Really said:
> 
> 
> 
> Because Egypt doesn't occupy Palestinian land. That's why.
> 
> 
> 
> *(COMMENT)*
> 
> OK, in 1948 did not place under occupation territory.  The Israelis had sovereign territory, and territory under the Armistice Agreements.
> 
> At the conclusion of the 1967 War, Israel had:
> 
> Sovereign territory
> Territory formerly under the sovereignty of Jordan.
> Territory formwerly under the Military Governorship of Egypt.
> Territorial fragments formerly under the Administration IAW the Armistice.
> Today, let's see.  Israel has:
> 
> Sovereign territory _(including annexations; and  territorial boundaries from the Treaties with Jordan and Egypt)_.
> 
> Territory formerly under the sovereignty of Jordan.
> Territorial fragments formerly under the Administration of the Armistice.
> 
> Most Respectfully,
> R
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> 
> OK, in 1948 did not place under occupation territory. The Israelis had sovereign territory, and territory under the Armistice Agreements.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Israel had no territory under the armistice agreements.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> *Israel had no territory under the armistice agreements.
> *
> You never did explain who had the territory under the armistice agreements.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Not Israel. The UN had no territory. The Mandate had no territory. So, where did Israel get it?
> Link?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I notice you never explain who held the territory after the armistice agreements.
Click to expand...

Occupations do not acquire sovereignty. Sovereignty remains in the hand of the people.


----------



## P F Tinmore

RoccoR said:


> The Right to Sovereignty without interference was mangled by the invasion of the Arab League Forces in the same time frame.


How so?


----------



## Hollie

P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> 
> The Right to Sovereignty without interference was mangled by the invasion of the Arab League Forces in the same time frame.
> 
> 
> 
> How so?
Click to expand...


By the invasion of the Arabs-Moslems.


----------



## Hollie

P F Tinmore said:


> Toddsterpatriot said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Toddsterpatriot said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> 
> RE:  Israeli forces shoot unarmed protesters from across Gaza security fence, killing at least 15
> ※→  Billo_Really,  et al,
> 
> Oh, for heaven's sake...
> 
> *(COMMENT)*
> 
> OK, in 1948 did not place under occupation territory.  The Israelis had sovereign territory, and territory under the Armistice Agreements.
> 
> At the conclusion of the 1967 War, Israel had:
> 
> Sovereign territory
> Territory formerly under the sovereignty of Jordan.
> Territory formwerly under the Military Governorship of Egypt.
> Territorial fragments formerly under the Administration IAW the Armistice.
> Today, let's see.  Israel has:
> 
> Sovereign territory _(including annexations; and  territorial boundaries from the Treaties with Jordan and Egypt)_.
> 
> Territory formerly under the sovereignty of Jordan.
> Territorial fragments formerly under the Administration of the Armistice.
> 
> Most Respectfully,
> R
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> 
> OK, in 1948 did not place under occupation territory. The Israelis had sovereign territory, and territory under the Armistice Agreements.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Israel had no territory under the armistice agreements.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> *Israel had no territory under the armistice agreements.
> *
> You never did explain who had the territory under the armistice agreements.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Not Israel. The UN had no territory. The Mandate had no territory. So, where did Israel get it?
> Link?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I notice you never explain who held the territory after the armistice agreements.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Occupations do not acquire sovereignty. Sovereignty remains in the hand of the people.
Click to expand...

Tossing around that slogan you cut and paste into multiple threads doesn’t address your misunderstanding.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot

P F Tinmore said:


> Toddsterpatriot said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Toddsterpatriot said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> 
> RE:  Israeli forces shoot unarmed protesters from across Gaza security fence, killing at least 15
> ※→  Billo_Really,  et al,
> 
> Oh, for heaven's sake...
> 
> *(COMMENT)*
> 
> OK, in 1948 did not place under occupation territory.  The Israelis had sovereign territory, and territory under the Armistice Agreements.
> 
> At the conclusion of the 1967 War, Israel had:
> 
> Sovereign territory
> Territory formerly under the sovereignty of Jordan.
> Territory formwerly under the Military Governorship of Egypt.
> Territorial fragments formerly under the Administration IAW the Armistice.
> Today, let's see.  Israel has:
> 
> Sovereign territory _(including annexations; and  territorial boundaries from the Treaties with Jordan and Egypt)_.
> 
> Territory formerly under the sovereignty of Jordan.
> Territorial fragments formerly under the Administration of the Armistice.
> 
> Most Respectfully,
> R
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> 
> OK, in 1948 did not place under occupation territory. The Israelis had sovereign territory, and territory under the Armistice Agreements.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Israel had no territory under the armistice agreements.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> *Israel had no territory under the armistice agreements.
> *
> You never did explain who had the territory under the armistice agreements.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Not Israel. The UN had no territory. The Mandate had no territory. So, where did Israel get it?
> Link?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I notice you never explain who held the territory after the armistice agreements.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Occupations do not acquire sovereignty. Sovereignty remains in the hand of the people.
Click to expand...


Awesome, so who made the agreements?


----------



## P F Tinmore

Toddsterpatriot said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Toddsterpatriot said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Toddsterpatriot said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> Israel had no territory under the armistice agreements.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Israel had no territory under the armistice agreements.
> *
> You never did explain who had the territory under the armistice agreements.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Not Israel. The UN had no territory. The Mandate had no territory. So, where did Israel get it?
> Link?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I notice you never explain who held the territory after the armistice agreements.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Occupations do not acquire sovereignty. Sovereignty remains in the hand of the people.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Awesome, so who made the agreements?
Click to expand...

Most people know who signed the armistice agreements but few know what they said.


----------



## P F Tinmore

Hollie said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Toddsterpatriot said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Toddsterpatriot said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> Israel had no territory under the armistice agreements.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Israel had no territory under the armistice agreements.
> *
> You never did explain who had the territory under the armistice agreements.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Not Israel. The UN had no territory. The Mandate had no territory. So, where did Israel get it?
> Link?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I notice you never explain who held the territory after the armistice agreements.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Occupations do not acquire sovereignty. Sovereignty remains in the hand of the people.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Tossing around that slogan you cut and paste into multiple threads doesn’t address your misunderstanding.
Click to expand...

I notice that you did not refute anything I said.


----------



## RetiredGySgt

P F Tinmore said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Toddsterpatriot said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Toddsterpatriot said:
> 
> 
> 
> *Israel had no territory under the armistice agreements.
> *
> You never did explain who had the territory under the armistice agreements.
> 
> 
> 
> Not Israel. The UN had no territory. The Mandate had no territory. So, where did Israel get it?
> Link?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I notice you never explain who held the territory after the armistice agreements.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Occupations do not acquire sovereignty. Sovereignty remains in the hand of the people.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Tossing around that slogan you cut and paste into multiple threads doesn’t address your misunderstanding.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I notice that you did not refute anything I said.
Click to expand...

I notice you NEVER mention the attacks the attempted attacks and the indiscriminate attacks by Pals.


----------



## Billo_Really

Toddsterpatriot said:


> *In 1948, Israel took more land than that was allocated to it.
> *
> Yup, they kicked some Arab ass.
> 
> *In 1967, Israel took the West Bank, Golan Heights, Gaza and East Jerusalem in that war.
> *
> Yup, kicked Arab ass again.
> 
> *That's the land Israel occupy's to this date.
> *
> And they're gonna keep most of it.


I see you're a fan of Hitler.

Because you just argued it was okay for Germany to annex Poland.

I'm sure the Krauts had snipers shooting Poles, as well.

It's a small world after all.


----------



## Billo_Really

Toddsterpatriot said:


> *BTW, the Arab armies went in to restore order and to ensure the indigenous Arabs land rights.
> *
> Big mistake........


They should've sent in *Seal Team Six*.


----------



## Billo_Really

Mindful said:


> Israel settled for far less land than was promised to it.
> 
> How many Arab armies attacked the fledgling state after said state was founded? Do you know?
> 
> And do you know the reason/rationale for taking the Golan? Without any of your revisionist nonsense?


Israel was given 70% of the land, when they made up only 30% of the population.

You call that fair?

BTW, none of the violence started until Zionists moved in to the area with their racist, apartheid policies.


----------



## Billo_Really

harmonica said:


> you must have zero knowledge on combat/war/warfare
> civilians usually always get killed in war zones/conflicts !!!!! this is just a fact !!
> please do some reading on the subject


Aah, the old war is hell, argument.  It is true, civilians die in war.  That doesn't change the fact that it is illegal to deliberately target them.

You apparently, are okay with that.

BTW, the IDF also shot people carrying white flags.


----------



## Billo_Really

RetiredGySgt said:


> LOL you are BEYOND retarded, the Arabs announced the threat and ordered the Arabs out on pain of death, historical fact that you want to ignore, pathetic.


That's the big Israeli lie you keep telling, because you are a little Israeli bitch, doing what you're told like a good little whore!

Someone (you've never seen before), comes to your house and tells you to leave, are you gonna go?


----------



## Toddsterpatriot

P F Tinmore said:


> Toddsterpatriot said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Toddsterpatriot said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Toddsterpatriot said:
> 
> 
> 
> *Israel had no territory under the armistice agreements.
> *
> You never did explain who had the territory under the armistice agreements.
> 
> 
> 
> Not Israel. The UN had no territory. The Mandate had no territory. So, where did Israel get it?
> Link?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I notice you never explain who held the territory after the armistice agreements.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Occupations do not acquire sovereignty. Sovereignty remains in the hand of the people.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Awesome, so who made the agreements?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Most people know who signed the armistice agreements but few know what they said.
Click to expand...

*
Most people know who signed the armistice agreements
*
Great. Who signed them?

*but few know what they said.
*
Double secret armistice agreements?


----------



## Toddsterpatriot

Billo_Really said:


> Toddsterpatriot said:
> 
> 
> 
> *In 1948, Israel took more land than that was allocated to it.
> *
> Yup, they kicked some Arab ass.
> 
> *In 1967, Israel took the West Bank, Golan Heights, Gaza and East Jerusalem in that war.
> *
> Yup, kicked Arab ass again.
> 
> *That's the land Israel occupy's to this date.
> *
> And they're gonna keep most of it.
> 
> 
> 
> I see you're a fan of Hitler.
> 
> Because you just argued it was okay for Germany to annex Poland.
> 
> I'm sure the Krauts had snipers shooting Poles, as well.
> 
> It's a small world after all.
Click to expand...

*
I see you're a fan of Hitler.
*
Did he also kick Arab ass?

*Because you just argued it was okay for Germany to annex Poland.*​
Poland attacked Germany? ​


----------



## Toddsterpatriot

Billo_Really said:


> Toddsterpatriot said:
> 
> 
> 
> *BTW, the Arab armies went in to restore order and to ensure the indigenous Arabs land rights.
> *
> Big mistake........
> 
> 
> 
> They should've sent in *Seal Team Six*.
Click to expand...


Arab pussies don't have Seals.


----------



## Billo_Really

P F Tinmore said:


> Who said it was a war zone?


Exactly!  A war zone is between two competing armies; not between the most militarized country on the planet vs a population under occupation that is not even allowed to have weapons to defend itself.


----------



## RetiredGySgt

Billo_Really said:


> RetiredGySgt said:
> 
> 
> 
> LOL you are BEYOND retarded, the Arabs announced the threat and ordered the Arabs out on pain of death, historical fact that you want to ignore, pathetic.
> 
> 
> 
> That's the big Israeli lie you keep telling, because you are a little Israeli bitch, doing what you're told like a good little whore!
> 
> Someone (you've never seen before), comes to your house and tells you to leave, are you gonna go?
Click to expand...

When 5 Armies order you out and threaten to kill you if you stay only the brave refuse to leave.


----------



## RoccoR

RE:  Israeli forces shoot unarmed protesters from across Gaza security fence, killing at least 15
※→  P F Tinmore,  et al,

You keep trying to make these two points in the wrong political language.  Let's try again to get it right for you.



P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> 
> The Right to Sovereignty without interference was mangled by the invasion of the Arab League Forces in the same time frame.
> 
> 
> 
> How so?
Click to expand...

*(COMMENT)*

I'm going to speak of "state sovereignty" outside the realist and globalization paradigms.  In the arena of "state sovereignty" _[in the hands of the people _(the US is an indirect democracy, and therefore its sovereignty is representative at the national level)_ → or not _(Saudi Arabian, the sovereignty is clearly not in the hands of the people)_ is irrelevent]_ is a foundational principle of international law.  For our discussion:

PART C: INTERNATIONAL HUMAN RIGHTS ORGANIZATIONS
Section 7:The Need for International Institutions and their Challenge to Notions of Sovereignty

Sovereignty denotes full and unchallengeable power over a specific territory; as protected by Chapter 1 of the UN Charter.  Sovereignty is an umbrella term that indicates the rights and duties that a state is accorded by international law at a given time _(part of which is the Montevideo Convention)_. These sovereign rights and duties constitute "state sovereignty."​
State Sovereignty has absolutely nothing to do with who handles it.  State Sovereignty is as valid in Saudi Arabia _(a Monarchy)_ as it is in Monoca _(constitutional monarchy)_, as it is in the UK _(parliamentary constitutional monarchy; a Commonwealth realm)_ or in China _(communist party-led state)_ --- or as it is in the Democratic People's Republic of Korea _(single-party state; official state ideology of "Juche")_. The each know the boundaries of there nation and claim (with few exceptions) state control.   And there are more.  And each of these Sovereignties has territorial integrity in which that government claims sovereignty and no other.  This differs from the Arab Palestinians who argue that they have no territories where their government expresses the supreme authority.



P F Tinmore said:


> Not Israel. The UN had no territory. The Mandate had no territory. So, where did Israel get it?
> Link?


*(COMMENT)*

There is a chain of custody over the territory which stretches back further than the Treaty of Lausanne (1923), and may even to the Armistice of Mudros (1918).




			
				TREATY OF PEACE WITH TURKEY SIGNED AT LAUSANNE  JULY 24 said:
			
		

> *ARTICLE 16*
> 
> Turkey hereby renounces all rights and title whatsoever over or respecting the territories situated outside the frontiers laid down in the present Treaty and the islands other than those over which her sovereignty is recognised by the said Treaty, the future of these territories and islands being settled or to be settled by the parties concerned.
> 
> The provisions of the present Article do not prejudice any special arrangements arising from neighbourly relations which have been or may be concluded between Turkey and any limitrophe countries.



Without regard to what you might think today, the fact of the matter is that the International Laws were largely written by the Allied Powers of the day.  And their mean was interpreted largely by what the Allied Powers said it was to mean.

No matter how you might want to interpret it, the Arab Palestinians _(mostly hostile in nature)_, formerly a population of the Occupied Enemy Territory Administration were not a party to the treaty; they were not promised anything, and the Allied Powers were not obligated to the former population of the Occupied Enemy Territory Administration.

The Allied Powers made the determination of the day and the disposition of territory relinquished by the defeated enemy powers.

Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## Billo_Really

harmonica said:


> please read more carefully/slowly..read it again
> conflict
> con·flict
> _noun_
> ˈkänˌflikt/
> 
> *1*.
> a serious disagreement or argument, typically a protracted one.
> "the eternal *conflict between* the sexes"
> synonyms: dispute, quarrel, squabble, disagreement, dissension, clash;


So you're equating fucking with murder?

I've killed some pussy in my time, but...


----------



## P F Tinmore

RetiredGySgt said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Toddsterpatriot said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> Not Israel. The UN had no territory. The Mandate had no territory. So, where did Israel get it?
> Link?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I notice you never explain who held the territory after the armistice agreements.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Occupations do not acquire sovereignty. Sovereignty remains in the hand of the people.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Tossing around that slogan you cut and paste into multiple threads doesn’t address your misunderstanding.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I notice that you did not refute anything I said.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I notice you NEVER mention the attacks the attempted attacks and the indiscriminate attacks by Pals.
Click to expand...

The Palestinians were at home. How do you attack anyone from at home?


----------



## Billo_Really

RetiredGySgt said:


> When 5 Armies order you out and threaten to kill you if you stay only the brave refuse to leave.


Except for the fact that they didn't do that.

When you are there to protect someones land rights, why would you force them off that land?  

That's just a bullshit Zionist lie, that you bought hook, line and sinker.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot

Billo_Really said:


> RetiredGySgt said:
> 
> 
> 
> When 5 Armies order you out and threaten to kill you if you stay only the brave refuse to leave.
> 
> 
> 
> Except for the fact that they didn't do that.
> 
> When you are there to protect someones land rights, why would you force them off that land?
> 
> That's just a bullshit Zionist lie, that you bought hook, line and sinker.
Click to expand...

*
When you are there to protect someones land rights, why would you force them off that land? *

Arabs aren't known for their brains.


----------



## Billo_Really

RetiredGySgt said:


> When 5 Armies order you out and threaten to kill you if you stay only the brave refuse to leave.


Here you go, buddy boy...

*The Expulsion of the Palestinians, 1947-1948*
_At the beginning of the strife in late 1947, it is likely that the Jewish political leadership in Palestine would have rejected any formal plan to expel the Palestinians. (Although that would change by the following June, as discussed below, when the new Israeli government prohibited the return of all Palestinian refugees.) 

There was, however, a shared belief by many of the Jewish (later Israeli) military leaders during the war that the entire Palestinian population was the enemy. 

Acting on that belief, the *Jewish militias (the official Haganah and the unofficial Stern Gang and Irgun) engaged in a consistent course of conduct that was intended to--and did--cause the Arab population to flee. (The Israeli myth that the Palestinians left on instructions from Arab leaders has long since been shown to be a fabrication.)*_​


----------



## P F Tinmore

RoccoR said:


> The Allied Powers made the determination of the day and the disposition of territory relinquished by the defeated enemy powers.


Indeed, and they decided not to annex the territories and to establish independent nations for the inhabitants.


----------



## rylah

*Refugee - Arab states told Arabs to leave Israel in 1948 war*


Set to get rid of the Jews in 10 days, be ready to meet the consequence.

Hashem is One and most just.


----------



## Ropey

You guys can argue history all you want but history is in the making right now.



لم اقل لكم..؟ مايجري في سوريا مجرد مقدمات لاسقاط نظام الملالي. نعم صحيح اني توقعاتي كانت مستعجلة لاني كنت اتوقع ضرب ايران في سورية منذ شهرين مضيا وان اسقاط ايران سيكون خلال شهرين مستقبلا من الان. اعترف اني كنت مستعجلا زمنيا

Didn't I tell you..? It is in Syria just the introduction to overthrow the mullahs system. Yes it is true that my expectations were in a hurry because I expected to hit Iran in Syria two months ago and the overthrow of Iran will be in the next two months now. I admit I was in a hurry, but a Syrian hit was just a drill.








Get out there and watch it as it happens or lose sight of it and keep discussing what happened... all the way back to the beginning of the book.  /s​


----------



## P F Tinmore

RoccoR said:


> RE:  Israeli forces shoot unarmed protesters from across Gaza security fence, killing at least 15
> ※→  P F Tinmore,  et al,
> 
> You keep trying to make these two points in the wrong political language.  Let's try again to get it right for you.
> 
> 
> 
> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> 
> The Right to Sovereignty without interference was mangled by the invasion of the Arab League Forces in the same time frame.
> 
> 
> 
> How so?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> *(COMMENT)*
> 
> I'm going to speak of "state sovereignty" outside the realist and globalization paradigms.  In the arena of "state sovereignty" _[in the hands of the people _(the US is an indirect democracy, and therefore its sovereignty is representative at the national level)_ → or not _(Saudi Arabian, the sovereignty is clearly not in the hands of the people)_ is irrelevent]_ is a foundational principle of international law.  For our discussion:
> 
> PART C: INTERNATIONAL HUMAN RIGHTS ORGANIZATIONS
> Section 7:The Need for International Institutions and their Challenge to Notions of Sovereignty
> 
> Sovereignty denotes full and unchallengeable power over a specific territory; as protected by Chapter 1 of the UN Charter.  Sovereignty is an umbrella term that indicates the rights and duties that a state is accorded by international law at a given time _(part of which is the Montevideo Convention)_. These sovereign rights and duties constitute "state sovereignty."​
> State Sovereignty has absolutely nothing to do with who handles it.  State Sovereignty is as valid in Saudi Arabia _(a Monarchy)_ as it is in Monoca _(constitutional monarchy)_, as it is in the UK _(parliamentary constitutional monarchy; a Commonwealth realm)_ or in China _(communist party-led state)_ --- or as it is in the Democratic People's Republic of Korea _(single-party state; official state ideology of "Juche")_. The each know the boundaries of there nation and claim (with few exceptions) state control.   And there are more.  And each of these Sovereignties has territorial integrity in which that government claims sovereignty and no other.  This differs from the Arab Palestinians who argue that they have no territories where their government expresses the supreme authority.
> 
> 
> 
> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> Not Israel. The UN had no territory. The Mandate had no territory. So, where did Israel get it?
> Link?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> *(COMMENT)*
> 
> There is a chain of custody over the territory which stretches back further than the Treaty of Lausanne (1923), and may even to the Armistice of Mudros (1918).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> TREATY OF PEACE WITH TURKEY SIGNED AT LAUSANNE  JULY 24 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *ARTICLE 16*
> 
> Turkey hereby renounces all rights and title whatsoever over or respecting the territories situated outside the frontiers laid down in the present Treaty and the islands other than those over which her sovereignty is recognised by the said Treaty, the future of these territories and islands being settled or to be settled by the parties concerned.
> 
> The provisions of the present Article do not prejudice any special arrangements arising from neighbourly relations which have been or may be concluded between Turkey and any limitrophe countries.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Without regard to what you might think today, the fact of the matter is that the International Laws were largely written by the Allied Powers of the day.  And their mean was interpreted largely by what the Allied Powers said it was to mean.
> 
> No matter how you might want to interpret it, the Arab Palestinians _(mostly hostile in nature)_, formerly a population of the Occupied Enemy Territory Administration were not a party to the treaty; they were not promised anything, and the Allied Powers were not obligated to the former population of the Occupied Enemy Territory Administration.
> 
> The Allied Powers made the determination of the day and the disposition of territory relinquished by the defeated enemy powers.
> 
> Most Respectfully,
> R
Click to expand...

You keep banging on about sovereignty being the purview of a government or state. States come and go. Governments change. However, what is consistent is the people's rights to their territory.

Whenever you see the mention of standard rights: The right to self determination, the right to independence and sovereignty, and the right to territorial integrity, they are always attributed to the people in a defined territory. Governments and states are never mentioned.


----------



## RetiredGySgt

P F Tinmore said:


> RetiredGySgt said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Toddsterpatriot said:
> 
> 
> 
> I notice you never explain who held the territory after the armistice agreements.
> 
> 
> 
> Occupations do not acquire sovereignty. Sovereignty remains in the hand of the people.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Tossing around that slogan you cut and paste into multiple threads doesn’t address your misunderstanding.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I notice that you did not refute anything I said.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I notice you NEVER mention the attacks the attempted attacks and the indiscriminate attacks by Pals.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The Palestinians were at home. How do you attack anyone from at home?
Click to expand...

So all the rockets all the IEDs all the tunnels are a figment of Israels imagination? All the rock throwing slingshots rifle fire Molotov Cocktails are imagined to right?


----------



## P F Tinmore

RetiredGySgt said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> RetiredGySgt said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> Occupations do not acquire sovereignty. Sovereignty remains in the hand of the people.
> 
> 
> 
> Tossing around that slogan you cut and paste into multiple threads doesn’t address your misunderstanding.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I notice that you did not refute anything I said.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I notice you NEVER mention the attacks the attempted attacks and the indiscriminate attacks by Pals.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The Palestinians were at home. How do you attack anyone from at home?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> So all the rockets all the IEDs all the tunnels are a figment of Israels imagination? All the rock throwing slingshots rifle fire Molotov Cocktails are imagined to right?
Click to expand...

Deflection.


----------



## RetiredGySgt

P F Tinmore said:


> RetiredGySgt said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> RetiredGySgt said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> Tossing around that slogan you cut and paste into multiple threads doesn’t address your misunderstanding.
> 
> 
> 
> I notice that you did not refute anything I said.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I notice you NEVER mention the attacks the attempted attacks and the indiscriminate attacks by Pals.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The Palestinians were at home. How do you attack anyone from at home?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> So all the rockets all the IEDs all the tunnels are a figment of Israels imagination? All the rock throwing slingshots rifle fire Molotov Cocktails are imagined to right?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Deflection.
Click to expand...

Ya pointing out you are a fucking liar is always a deflection right?


----------



## rylah

Ropey said:


> You guys can argue history all you want but history is in the making right now.
> 
> 
> 
> لم اقل لكم..؟ مايجري في سوريا مجرد مقدمات لاسقاط نظام الملالي. نعم صحيح اني توقعاتي كانت مستعجلة لاني كنت اتوقع ضرب ايران في سورية منذ شهرين مضيا وان اسقاط ايران سيكون خلال شهرين مستقبلا من الان. اعترف اني كنت مستعجلا زمنيا
> 
> Didn't I tell you..? It is in Syria just the introduction to overthrow the mullahs system. Yes it is true that my expectations were in a hurry because I expected to hit Iran in Syria two months ago and the overthrow of Iran will be in the next two months now. I admit I was in a hurry, but a Syrian hit was just a drill.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Get out there and watch it as it happens or lose sight of it and keep discussing what happened... all the way back to the beginning of the book.  /s​



Kvodo,

I've learned so much about the Gulf cooperation from our last exchange.
This is mostly interesting and significant, the timing to the info You'vepresented couldn't be better.

Thanks.


----------



## Ropey

rylah said:


> Ropey said:
> 
> 
> 
> You guys can argue history all you want but history is in the making right now.
> 
> 
> 
> لم اقل لكم..؟ مايجري في سوريا مجرد مقدمات لاسقاط نظام الملالي. نعم صحيح اني توقعاتي كانت مستعجلة لاني كنت اتوقع ضرب ايران في سورية منذ شهرين مضيا وان اسقاط ايران سيكون خلال شهرين مستقبلا من الان. اعترف اني كنت مستعجلا زمنيا
> 
> Didn't I tell you..? It is in Syria just the introduction to overthrow the mullahs system. Yes it is true that my expectations were in a hurry because I expected to hit Iran in Syria two months ago and the overthrow of Iran will be in the next two months now. I admit I was in a hurry, but a Syrian hit was just a drill.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Get out there and watch it as it happens or lose sight of it and keep discussing what happened... all the way back to the beginning of the book.  /s​
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Kvodo,
> 
> I've learned so much about the Gulf cooperation from our last exchange.
> This is mostly interesting and significant, the timing to the info You'vepresented couldn't be better.
> 
> Thanks.
Click to expand...







You have my regards.

K'vodo malei olam, m'shartav sho'alim zeh laze ayei m'kom kvodo.


----------



## rylah

Ropey said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ropey said:
> 
> 
> 
> You guys can argue history all you want but history is in the making right now.
> 
> 
> 
> لم اقل لكم..؟ مايجري في سوريا مجرد مقدمات لاسقاط نظام الملالي. نعم صحيح اني توقعاتي كانت مستعجلة لاني كنت اتوقع ضرب ايران في سورية منذ شهرين مضيا وان اسقاط ايران سيكون خلال شهرين مستقبلا من الان. اعترف اني كنت مستعجلا زمنيا
> 
> Didn't I tell you..? It is in Syria just the introduction to overthrow the mullahs system. Yes it is true that my expectations were in a hurry because I expected to hit Iran in Syria two months ago and the overthrow of Iran will be in the next two months now. I admit I was in a hurry, but a Syrian hit was just a drill.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Get out there and watch it as it happens or lose sight of it and keep discussing what happened... all the way back to the beginning of the book.  /s​
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Kvodo,
> 
> I've learned so much about the Gulf cooperation from our last exchange.
> This is mostly interesting and significant, the timing to the info You'vepresented couldn't be better.
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You have my regards.
> 
> K'vodo malei olam, m'shartav sho'alim zeh laze ayei m'kom kvodo.
Click to expand...


BORUCH KVOD ADONOI MIMKOMO. SHMA ISRAEL HASHEM EHAD.


----------



## rylah

*Palestinian terror groups seethe over Saudi crown prince’s pro-Israel comments*
*PA silent on Mohammed bin Salman's remarks recognizing Israel's right to homeland; Hamas, PFLP, Islamic Jihad rage against Riyadh*

Palestinian terror groups on Wednesday accused Saudi Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman of paving the way for “normalization” between the Arab countries and Israel.

Salman, in an interview published Monday, recognized Israel’s right to exist and extolled the prospect of future diplomatic relations between his kingdom and the Jewish state.

His remarks, which have enraged many Palestinians and Arabs, were made during an interview with The Atlantic’s Jeffrey Goldberg.





They're are enraged? Wow big difference.
They wanna fight on the side of Iran?* Meet the consequences.*


----------



## rylah

*Pro Palestine protesters yelling "Heil Hitler" in Calgary*


*Theres no other way this can end. *








_"You shall remember what Amalek did to you on the way, when you went out of Egypt, 
18how he happened upon you on the way and cut off all the stragglers at your rear, when you were faint and weary, and he did not fear God. 
19[Therefore,] it will be, when the Lord your God grants you respite from all your enemies around [you] in the land which the Lord, your God, gives to you as an inheritance to possess, that you shall obliterate the remembrance of Amalek from beneath the heavens. You shall not forget!"_

*Devarim 25*


----------



## Ropey

Gaza is still the land of the Philistines. Ever shall it be so. _They came with a non Semitic speaking land._

That's where _it _comes from.

_The evil._ That makes humans use their own children's bodies and lives for political purposes.

Pure evil.

Both beliefs know this.


----------



## rylah

Ropey said:


> Gaza is still the land of the Philistines. Ever shall it be so. _They came with a non Semitic speaking land._
> 
> That's where _it _comes from.
> 
> _The evil._ That makes humans use their own children's bodies and lives for political purposes.
> 
> Pure evil.
> 
> Both beliefs know this.



Hussein too thought he was Nebuchadnezzar...
If bedouins want to identify as invading 'sea people' , so be it.

For every well they try to seal, we'll build two and repair the broken.


----------



## Ropey

rylah said:


> Ropey said:
> 
> 
> 
> Gaza is still the land of the Philistines. Ever shall it be so. _They came with a non Semitic speaking land._
> 
> That's where _it _comes from.
> 
> _The evil._ That makes humans use their own children's bodies and lives for political purposes.
> 
> Pure evil.
> 
> Both beliefs know this.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If bedouins want to identify as invading 'sea people' , so be it.
> For every well they try to seal, we'll build two and repair the broken.
> 
> Hussein too thought he was Nebuchadnezzar.
Click to expand...

They can call themselves whatever they want. They can change their religion, language and customs and...


...they're still Philistines with evil built to the bone....*and they desire to congregate there.*

Just as we are drawn to Yerushalyim for other reasons.


----------



## rylah

Ropey said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ropey said:
> 
> 
> 
> Gaza is still the land of the Philistines. Ever shall it be so. _They came with a non Semitic speaking land._
> 
> That's where _it _comes from.
> 
> _The evil._ That makes humans use their own children's bodies and lives for political purposes.
> 
> Pure evil.
> 
> Both beliefs know this.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If bedouins want to identify as invading 'sea people' , so be it.
> For every well they try to seal, we'll build two and repair the broken.
> 
> Hussein too thought he was Nebuchadnezzar.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> They can call themselves whatever they want. They can change their religion, language and customs and...
> 
> 
> ...they're still Philistines with evil built to the bone....*and they desire to congregate there.*
> 
> Just as we are drawn to Yerushalyim for other reasons.
Click to expand...


Are we drawn to Jerusalem more,
than they're drawn to sacrifice their children for moloch?


----------



## Ropey

rylah said:


> Ropey said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ropey said:
> 
> 
> 
> Gaza is still the land of the Philistines. Ever shall it be so. _They came with a non Semitic speaking land._
> 
> That's where _it _comes from.
> 
> _The evil._ That makes humans use their own children's bodies and lives for political purposes.
> 
> Pure evil.
> 
> Both beliefs know this.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If bedouins want to identify as invading 'sea people' , so be it.
> For every well they try to seal, we'll build two and repair the broken.
> 
> Hussein too thought he was Nebuchadnezzar.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> They can call themselves whatever they want. They can change their religion, language and customs and...
> 
> 
> ...they're still Philistines with evil built to the bone....*and they desire to congregate there.*
> 
> Just as we are drawn to Yerushalyim for other reasons.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Are we drawn to Jerusalem more,
> than they're drawn to sacrifice their children for moloch?
Click to expand...


They are drawn to sacrifice all children. The choice is binary. They made theirs long ago and it still follows. There's no fuzzy logic. There's no escape for them. They know this.

1/0


----------



## rylah

Ropey said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ropey said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rylah said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ropey said:
> 
> 
> 
> Gaza is still the land of the Philistines. Ever shall it be so. _They came with a non Semitic speaking land._
> 
> That's where _it _comes from.
> 
> _The evil._ That makes humans use their own children's bodies and lives for political purposes.
> 
> Pure evil.
> 
> Both beliefs know this.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If bedouins want to identify as invading 'sea people' , so be it.
> For every well they try to seal, we'll build two and repair the broken.
> 
> Hussein too thought he was Nebuchadnezzar.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> They can call themselves whatever they want. They can change their religion, language and customs and...
> 
> 
> ...they're still Philistines with evil built to the bone....*and they desire to congregate there.*
> 
> Just as we are drawn to Yerushalyim for other reasons.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Are we drawn to Jerusalem more,
> than they're drawn to sacrifice their children for moloch?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> They are drawn to sacrifice all children. The choice is binary. They made theirs long ago and it still follows. There's no fuzzy logic. There's no escape for them. They know this.
> 
> 1/0
Click to expand...



It's impolite to reject _"wedding invitations"_.
Especially when they invest so much effort and money in the ceremony.

I've seen P F Tinmore post a video where a Gazan incites the young to kill the Jews and go die together. They should have no helmet if they wanna keep banging their head into the wall.


----------



## Ropey

So what about PF? He's nothing special. A communist useful idiot who changes his story.  ie...liar.

There's a lot of insanity that is promulgated by evil... and it only uses discussion as a method to foment baser emotions.

That's why I don't come down here and when I came here first?

It was 1000 times worse.


----------



## Ropey

And the discussions are useless since both Arabs and Jews have decided how to deal with the Palestinian question long ago.

The left were the barrier to peace.

Egypt and Jordan are enough  proof for me but if I need more, I just have to look at all the Communists in the West Bank...who are still listening to 0... and naming their streets with filth.

I think you can tell already, that this I/P forum is not a good place for me.

Shalom.


----------



## rylah

Ropey said:


> I think you can tell already, that this I/P forum is not a good place for me.
> 
> Shalom.



And in that short time You've visited here I've learned a lot.
Glad to hear You're coming home. May Hashem succeed in all Your ways.
Shalom.


----------



## RoccoR

RE:  Israeli forces shoot unarmed protesters from across Gaza security fence, killing at least 15
※→  P F Tinmore, et al,

This might be the case for some of the Mandates, but certainly not all of the Mandates.  



P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> 
> The Allied Powers made the determination of the day and the disposition of territory relinquished by the defeated enemy powers.
> 
> 
> 
> Indeed, and they decided not to annex the territories and to establish independent nations for the inhabitants.
Click to expand...

*(PREFACE)*


			
				THE PRINCIPLES OF THE MANDATORY REGIME:  Mandate System LoN/1945.VI.A.1 of 30 April 1945  said:
			
		

> The _Palestine_ Mandate is of a very special character. While it follows the main lines laid down by the Covenant for "A" Mandates, it also contains a number of provisions designed to apply the policy defined by the "Balfour Declaration" of November 2nd, 1917. By this declaration, the British Government had announced its intention to encourage the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, it being clearly understood that nothing should be done which might prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country. The Mandate reproduces the Balfour Declaration almost in full in its preamble and states that "recognition has thereby been given to the historical connection of the Jewish people with Palestine and to the grounds for reconstituting their national home in that country".
> *SOURCE:* •  LoN/Series of League of Nations Publications •



*(COMMENT)*

BUT, whatever you think the Allied Powers → decided to do in the beginning, → decided to attempt throughout the Mandate period, by early 1947, the Mandatory, faced with an irreconcilable conflict of principles → decided to refer the problem to the United Nations.  In Arpil1946, the was dissolved in the belief by many that league was inefficient and incapable of enforcing its resolutions and sanctions _(the very same complaint  and reputation the UN holds today)_. 
*
(BY THE WAY )*

If the Allied Powers had wanted to "annex territory" at the close of the hostile conflict → they could have without any trouble it all..

Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## RoccoR

RE: Israeli forces shoot unarmed protesters from across Gaza security fence, killing at least 15
※→ P F Tinmore, et al,

OH for heaven sake!!!

Article 1(2), UN Charter:  To develop friendly relations *among nations* based on respect for the principle of equal rights and self-determination of peoples, and to take other appropriate measures to strengthen universal peace;

Article 2(4), UN Charter:  All Members shall refrain in their international relations from the threat or use of force against *the territorial integrity or political independence of any state,* or in any other manner inconsistent with the Purposes of the United Nations.



P F Tinmore said:


> You keep banging on about sovereignty being the purview of a government or state. States come and go. Governments change. However, what is consistent is the people's rights to their territory.
> 
> Whenever you see the mention of standard rights: The right to self determination, the right to independence and sovereignty, and the right to territorial integrity, they are always attributed to the people in a defined territory. Governments and states are never mentioned.


*(COMMENT)*

Yes Empires, States, and Governments do come and go.  And the fact that each shift in territorial government does not reqirewhole sale genocide, is often observed. 

The Concept of Sovereignty
Revisited
Jens Bartelson
The European Journal of International Law Vol. 17 no.2 © EJIL 2006; all rights reserved​The first view, the *sovereign state* is unlikely to remain the main locus of political authority and community in the future. It is challenged by new constellations of authority and community which transcend the divide between the domestic and the international spheres, and will soon be replaced by new forms of political life that know nothing of this distinction.

The second view, the *sovereign state* is likely to remain a potent source of authority and community even in the future. Those emergent constellations of authority and community that allegedly challenge the predominance of the sovereign state are ultimately only manifestations of its successful sovereignty claims. They are thus indicative of the remarkable endurance of this concept in both theory and practice. When properly understood, therefore, the concept of sovereignty retains much of its explanatory power and normative relevance.

*Sovereignty*
politics
Written By:  The Editors of Encyclopaedia Britannica

*Sovereignty*, in political theory, the ultimate overseer, or authority, in the decision-making process of the state and in the maintenance of order. The concept of sovereignty—one of the most controversial ideas in political science and international law—is closely related to the difficult *concepts of state and government* and of independence and democracy.​

Most Repectfully,
R


----------



## Billo_Really

Ropey said:


> You have my regards.
> 
> K'vodo malei olam, m'shartav sho'alim zeh laze ayei m'kom kvodo.


lekh tizday*e*n


----------



## Ropey

Zeig Billo.

You're not allowed into the game.

All you can do is watch...


...it happen.


And Arabs are doing it, not Jews.  Isaac is just helping Ishmael.



Priceless


----------



## P F Tinmore

RoccoR said:


> RE: Israeli forces shoot unarmed protesters from across Gaza security fence, killing at least 15
> ※→ P F Tinmore, et al,
> 
> OH for heaven sake!!!
> 
> Article 1(2), UN Charter:  To develop friendly relations *among nations* based on respect for the principle of equal rights and self-determination of peoples, and to take other appropriate measures to strengthen universal peace;
> 
> Article 2(4), UN Charter:  All Members shall refrain in their international relations from the threat or use of force against *the territorial integrity or political independence of any state,* or in any other manner inconsistent with the Purposes of the United Nations.
> 
> 
> 
> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> You keep banging on about sovereignty being the purview of a government or state. States come and go. Governments change. However, what is consistent is the people's rights to their territory.
> 
> Whenever you see the mention of standard rights: The right to self determination, the right to independence and sovereignty, and the right to territorial integrity, they are always attributed to the people in a defined territory. Governments and states are never mentioned.
> 
> 
> 
> *(COMMENT)*
> 
> Yes Empires, States, and Governments do come and go.  And the fact that each shift in territorial government does not reqirewhole sale genocide, is often observed.
> 
> The Concept of Sovereignty
> Revisited
> Jens Bartelson
> The European Journal of International Law Vol. 17 no.2 © EJIL 2006; all rights reserved​The first view, the *sovereign state* is unlikely to remain the main locus of political authority and community in the future. It is challenged by new constellations of authority and community which transcend the divide between the domestic and the international spheres, and will soon be replaced by new forms of political life that know nothing of this distinction.
> 
> The second view, the *sovereign state* is likely to remain a potent source of authority and community even in the future. Those emergent constellations of authority and community that allegedly challenge the predominance of the sovereign state are ultimately only manifestations of its successful sovereignty claims. They are thus indicative of the remarkable endurance of this concept in both theory and practice. When properly understood, therefore, the concept of sovereignty retains much of its explanatory power and normative relevance.
> 
> *Sovereignty*
> politics
> Written By:  The Editors of Encyclopaedia Britannica
> 
> *Sovereignty*, in political theory, the ultimate overseer, or authority, in the decision-making process of the state and in the maintenance of order. The concept of sovereignty—one of the most controversial ideas in political science and international law—is closely related to the difficult *concepts of state and government* and of independence and democracy.​
> 
> Most Repectfully,
> R
Click to expand...

You are starting in the middle.

In international law, the people are "married" to their land. They cannot be removed from their land and their land cannot be taken from them.

According to international law, the Treaty of Lausanne, the Palestinian Citizenship Order, and affirmed by resolution 181, the Palestinians are citizens of Palestine. They are the ones with the right to sovereignty within their defined territory.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot

P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> 
> RE: Israeli forces shoot unarmed protesters from across Gaza security fence, killing at least 15
> ※→ P F Tinmore, et al,
> 
> OH for heaven sake!!!
> 
> Article 1(2), UN Charter:  To develop friendly relations *among nations* based on respect for the principle of equal rights and self-determination of peoples, and to take other appropriate measures to strengthen universal peace;
> 
> Article 2(4), UN Charter:  All Members shall refrain in their international relations from the threat or use of force against *the territorial integrity or political independence of any state,* or in any other manner inconsistent with the Purposes of the United Nations.
> 
> 
> 
> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> You keep banging on about sovereignty being the purview of a government or state. States come and go. Governments change. However, what is consistent is the people's rights to their territory.
> 
> Whenever you see the mention of standard rights: The right to self determination, the right to independence and sovereignty, and the right to territorial integrity, they are always attributed to the people in a defined territory. Governments and states are never mentioned.
> 
> 
> 
> *(COMMENT)*
> 
> Yes Empires, States, and Governments do come and go.  And the fact that each shift in territorial government does not reqirewhole sale genocide, is often observed.
> 
> The Concept of Sovereignty
> Revisited
> Jens Bartelson
> The European Journal of International Law Vol. 17 no.2 © EJIL 2006; all rights reserved​The first view, the *sovereign state* is unlikely to remain the main locus of political authority and community in the future. It is challenged by new constellations of authority and community which transcend the divide between the domestic and the international spheres, and will soon be replaced by new forms of political life that know nothing of this distinction.
> 
> The second view, the *sovereign state* is likely to remain a potent source of authority and community even in the future. Those emergent constellations of authority and community that allegedly challenge the predominance of the sovereign state are ultimately only manifestations of its successful sovereignty claims. They are thus indicative of the remarkable endurance of this concept in both theory and practice. When properly understood, therefore, the concept of sovereignty retains much of its explanatory power and normative relevance.
> 
> *Sovereignty*
> politics
> Written By:  The Editors of Encyclopaedia Britannica
> 
> *Sovereignty*, in political theory, the ultimate overseer, or authority, in the decision-making process of the state and in the maintenance of order. The concept of sovereignty—one of the most controversial ideas in political science and international law—is closely related to the difficult *concepts of state and government* and of independence and democracy.​
> 
> Most Repectfully,
> R
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You are starting in the middle.
> 
> In international law, the people are "married" to their land. They cannot be removed from their land and their land cannot be taken from them.
> 
> According to international law, the Treaty of Lausanne, the Palestinian Citizenship Order, and affirmed by resolution 181, the Palestinians are citizens of Palestine. They are the ones with the right to sovereignty within their defined territory.
Click to expand...

*
In international law, the people are "married" to their land. They cannot be removed from their land and their land cannot be taken from them.
*
Exactly!
That's why no land was taken from Germany after WWI and WWII.
And that's why millions of ethnic Germans weren't expelled from across Europe after WWII.


----------



## Linkiloo

If people can be married to their land, they can also get divorced from it.


----------



## RoccoR

RE: Israeli forces shoot unarmed protesters from across Gaza security fence, killing at least 15
※→ Linkiloo, et al,

I had to chuckle at this.  Someone has a quick mind.



Linkiloo said:


> If people can be married to their land, they can also get divorced from it.


*(COMMENT)*

There are several examples of people, territory, and laws that could be used as a good example.  But the best one for the time period, that fit with the same Allied Powers, and being the same territory by shifting in sovereignty _(that comes to mind)_ is that of  Alsace Moselle _(formerly the territory of the former Alsace-Lorraine)_.

•  The territory of Alsace-Lorraine was incorporated into the German Empire after France’s defeat in 1871 after the Franco-German War.
•  Alsace-Lorraine was returned to France in 1919 by the Allied Powers after the defeat of Germany in World War I.
•  In the early part of WWII, after the defeat and occupation of France by Germany, Alsace-Lorraine was annexed by Germany.
•  After the defeat of the Axis Powers in 1945, Alsace-Lorraine was returned and re-incorporated into French Republic in 1945 by the Allied Powers.​
As you can see, the nationality of the people and the sovereignty over the territory flip-flopped a couple of times here.  The PF Tinmore Posting of 1241 is scrambled.

•  It was well after WWII that the concepts in International Law altered to what it is today.  But it is certainly not definitive in the Arab - Palestinian Conflict.
•  The Treaty of Lausanne does not grant the Arab Palestinians any sovereignty over any territory whatsoever.  It does spect to nationality, which follows sovereignty _(not the other way around)_.  In the Alsace Moselle example I cited, the nationality and citizenship shifted back-and-forth with the sovereign claim.
•  The Palestine Citizenship Order was required at all, only because it pertained to the territory of the subject to the territory under the Mandate.  The citizenship order allowed the Government of Palestine (actually the UK) to be recognized.  It was necessary because the British did not want a legal slight and make a clear distinction between British Citizenship and Palestinian Citizenship.
•  In general, the Resolution 181(II) simply followed the general line of thought.​
"Citizenship. Palestinian citizens residing in Palestine outside the City of Jerusalem, as well as Arabs and Jews who, not holding Palestinian citizenship, reside in Palestine outside the City of Jerusalem, shall, upon the recognition of independence, become citizens of the State in which they are resident and enjoy full civil and political rights."

There is a very distinct difference between the establishment of the two states as recommended.  Don't let the wool be pulled over your eyes.  This is what we call the "Flim-Flam."  In Posting #1238, the discussion was about "*territorial integrity or political independence of any state."*  It was not on the matter of citizenship.

Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## Hollie

P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> 
> RE: Israeli forces shoot unarmed protesters from across Gaza security fence, killing at least 15
> ※→ P F Tinmore, et al,
> 
> OH for heaven sake!!!
> 
> Article 1(2), UN Charter:  To develop friendly relations *among nations* based on respect for the principle of equal rights and self-determination of peoples, and to take other appropriate measures to strengthen universal peace;
> 
> Article 2(4), UN Charter:  All Members shall refrain in their international relations from the threat or use of force against *the territorial integrity or political independence of any state,* or in any other manner inconsistent with the Purposes of the United Nations.
> 
> 
> 
> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> You keep banging on about sovereignty being the purview of a government or state. States come and go. Governments change. However, what is consistent is the people's rights to their territory.
> 
> Whenever you see the mention of standard rights: The right to self determination, the right to independence and sovereignty, and the right to territorial integrity, they are always attributed to the people in a defined territory. Governments and states are never mentioned.
> 
> 
> 
> *(COMMENT)*
> 
> Yes Empires, States, and Governments do come and go.  And the fact that each shift in territorial government does not reqirewhole sale genocide, is often observed.
> 
> The Concept of Sovereignty
> Revisited
> Jens Bartelson
> The European Journal of International Law Vol. 17 no.2 © EJIL 2006; all rights reserved​The first view, the *sovereign state* is unlikely to remain the main locus of political authority and community in the future. It is challenged by new constellations of authority and community which transcend the divide between the domestic and the international spheres, and will soon be replaced by new forms of political life that know nothing of this distinction.
> 
> The second view, the *sovereign state* is likely to remain a potent source of authority and community even in the future. Those emergent constellations of authority and community that allegedly challenge the predominance of the sovereign state are ultimately only manifestations of its successful sovereignty claims. They are thus indicative of the remarkable endurance of this concept in both theory and practice. When properly understood, therefore, the concept of sovereignty retains much of its explanatory power and normative relevance.
> 
> *Sovereignty*
> politics
> Written By:  The Editors of Encyclopaedia Britannica
> 
> *Sovereignty*, in political theory, the ultimate overseer, or authority, in the decision-making process of the state and in the maintenance of order. The concept of sovereignty—one of the most controversial ideas in political science and international law—is closely related to the difficult *concepts of state and government* and of independence and democracy.​
> 
> Most Repectfully,
> R
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You are starting in the middle.
> 
> In international law, the people are "married" to their land. They cannot be removed from their land and their land cannot be taken from them.
> 
> According to international law, the Treaty of Lausanne, the Palestinian Citizenship Order, and affirmed by resolution 181, the Palestinians are citizens of Palestine. They are the ones with the right to sovereignty within their defined territory.
Click to expand...


I always get a chuckle when Tinmore gives a dissertation on his Disney’fied version of international law.


----------



## P F Tinmore

RoccoR said:


> RE: Israeli forces shoot unarmed protesters from across Gaza security fence, killing at least 15
> ※→ Linkiloo, et al,
> 
> I had to chuckle at this.  Someone has a quick mind.
> 
> 
> 
> Linkiloo said:
> 
> 
> 
> If people can be married to their land, they can also get divorced from it.
> 
> 
> 
> *(COMMENT)*
> 
> There are several examples of people, territory, and laws that could be used as a good example.  But the best one for the time period, that fit with the same Allied Powers, and being the same territory by shifting in sovereignty _(that comes to mind)_ is that of  Alsace Moselle _(formerly the territory of the former Alsace-Lorraine)_.
> 
> •  The territory of Alsace-Lorraine was incorporated into the German Empire after France’s defeat in 1871 after the Franco-German War.
> •  Alsace-Lorraine was returned to France in 1919 by the Allied Powers after the defeat of Germany in World War I.
> •  In the early part of WWII, after the defeat and occupation of France by Germany, Alsace-Lorraine was annexed by Germany.
> •  After the defeat of the Axis Powers in 1945, Alsace-Lorraine was returned and re-incorporated into French Republic in 1945 by the Allied Powers.​
> As you can see, the nationality of the people and the sovereignty over the territory flip-flopped a couple of times here.  The PF Tinmore Posting of 1241 is scrambled.
> 
> •  It was well after WWII that the concepts in International Law altered to what it is today.  But it is certainly not definitive in the Arab - Palestinian Conflict.
> •  The Treaty of Lausanne does not grant the Arab Palestinians any sovereignty over any territory whatsoever.  It does spect to nationality, which follows sovereignty _(not the other way around)_.  In the Alsace Moselle example I cited, the nationality and citizenship shifted back-and-forth with the sovereign claim.
> •  The Palestine Citizenship Order was required at all, only because it pertained to the territory of the subject to the territory under the Mandate.  The citizenship order allowed the Government of Palestine (actually the UK) to be recognized.  It was necessary because the British did not want a legal slight and make a clear distinction between British Citizenship and Palestinian Citizenship.
> •  In general, the Resolution 181(II) simply followed the general line of thought.​
> "Citizenship. Palestinian citizens residing in Palestine outside the City of Jerusalem, as well as Arabs and Jews who, not holding Palestinian citizenship, reside in Palestine outside the City of Jerusalem, shall, upon the recognition of independence, become citizens of the State in which they are resident and enjoy full civil and political rights."
> 
> There is a very distinct difference between the establishment of the two states as recommended.  Don't let the wool be pulled over your eyes.  This is what we call the "Flim-Flam."  In Posting #1238, the discussion was about "*territorial integrity or political independence of any state."*  It was not on the matter of citizenship.
> 
> Most Respectfully,
> R
Click to expand...

Holy smokescreen, Batman!


RoccoR said:


> the discussion was about "*territorial integrity or political independence of any state."* It was not on the matter of citizenship.


You are following Israeli say so not the documents of the time. From the Balfour Declaration through the UN Armistice Agreements of 1949, Palestine was the place. After the Treaty of Lausanne, Palestinian was a recognized nationality and the Palestinians became the citizens of Palestine. Palestine was recognized as a state.

Then Israeli propaganda kicked in. From day one, Israeli say so claimed Israel to be a state and denied the existence of Palestine or the Palestinians. This has been repeated a gazillion times so people are inclined to believe it without question.

Of course there are no historical documents to back up this claim.


----------



## Hollie

P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> 
> RE: Israeli forces shoot unarmed protesters from across Gaza security fence, killing at least 15
> ※→ Linkiloo, et al,
> 
> I had to chuckle at this.  Someone has a quick mind.
> 
> 
> 
> Linkiloo said:
> 
> 
> 
> If people can be married to their land, they can also get divorced from it.
> 
> 
> 
> *(COMMENT)*
> 
> There are several examples of people, territory, and laws that could be used as a good example.  But the best one for the time period, that fit with the same Allied Powers, and being the same territory by shifting in sovereignty _(that comes to mind)_ is that of  Alsace Moselle _(formerly the territory of the former Alsace-Lorraine)_.
> 
> •  The territory of Alsace-Lorraine was incorporated into the German Empire after France’s defeat in 1871 after the Franco-German War.
> •  Alsace-Lorraine was returned to France in 1919 by the Allied Powers after the defeat of Germany in World War I.
> •  In the early part of WWII, after the defeat and occupation of France by Germany, Alsace-Lorraine was annexed by Germany.
> •  After the defeat of the Axis Powers in 1945, Alsace-Lorraine was returned and re-incorporated into French Republic in 1945 by the Allied Powers.​
> As you can see, the nationality of the people and the sovereignty over the territory flip-flopped a couple of times here.  The PF Tinmore Posting of 1241 is scrambled.
> 
> •  It was well after WWII that the concepts in International Law altered to what it is today.  But it is certainly not definitive in the Arab - Palestinian Conflict.
> •  The Treaty of Lausanne does not grant the Arab Palestinians any sovereignty over any territory whatsoever.  It does spect to nationality, which follows sovereignty _(not the other way around)_.  In the Alsace Moselle example I cited, the nationality and citizenship shifted back-and-forth with the sovereign claim.
> •  The Palestine Citizenship Order was required at all, only because it pertained to the territory of the subject to the territory under the Mandate.  The citizenship order allowed the Government of Palestine (actually the UK) to be recognized.  It was necessary because the British did not want a legal slight and make a clear distinction between British Citizenship and Palestinian Citizenship.
> •  In general, the Resolution 181(II) simply followed the general line of thought.​
> "Citizenship. Palestinian citizens residing in Palestine outside the City of Jerusalem, as well as Arabs and Jews who, not holding Palestinian citizenship, reside in Palestine outside the City of Jerusalem, shall, upon the recognition of independence, become citizens of the State in which they are resident and enjoy full civil and political rights."
> 
> There is a very distinct difference between the establishment of the two states as recommended.  Don't let the wool be pulled over your eyes.  This is what we call the "Flim-Flam."  In Posting #1238, the discussion was about "*territorial integrity or political independence of any state."*  It was not on the matter of citizenship.
> 
> Most Respectfully,
> R
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Holy smokescreen, Batman!
> 
> 
> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> 
> the discussion was about "*territorial integrity or political independence of any state."* It was not on the matter of citizenship.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You are following Israeli say so not the documents of the time. From the Balfour Declaration through the UN Armistice Agreements of 1949, Palestine was the place. After the Treaty of Lausanne, Palestinian was a recognized nationality and the Palestinians became the citizens of Palestine. Palestine was recognized as a state.
> 
> Then Israeli propaganda kicked in. From day one, Israeli say so claimed Israel to be a state and denied the existence of Palestine or the Palestinians. This has been repeated a gazillion times so people are inclined to believe it without question.
> 
> Of course there are no historical documents to back up this claim.
Click to expand...


It was only a matter of time before Tinmore dumped his nonsensical "Treaty of Lausanne invented the country of Pal'istan", conspiracy theory.


----------



## RoccoR

RE: Israeli forces shoot unarmed protesters from across Gaza security fence, killing at least 15
※→ P F Tinmore, et al,

And now you are just being a purveyor of disinformation.



P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> 
> the discussion was about "*territorial integrity or political independence of any state."* It was not on the matter of citizenship.
> 
> 
> 
> You are following Israeli say so not the documents of the time.
> 
> From the Balfour Declaration through the UN Armistice Agreements of 1949, Palestine was the place.
> 
> After the Treaty of Lausanne, Palestinian was a recognized nationality and the Palestinians became the citizens of Palestine. Palestine was recognized as a state.
> 
> Then Israeli propaganda kicked in. From day one, Israeli say so claimed Israel to be a state and denied the existence of Palestine or the Palestinians. This has been repeated a gazillion times so people are inclined to believe it without question.
> 
> Of course there are no historical documents to back up this claim.
Click to expand...

*(COMMENT)*

As my narratives on "the Legal Entity" obviously have NOT communicated the point well enough, I decided to put this imaging to work.  While there might be several documents that probably make the same point, these two documents are probably the best and the sources are readily verifiable.





A/AC.21/UK/42  25 February 1948
MEMORANDUM “A”
•  *"LEGAL MEANING OF THE “TERMINATION OF THE MANDATE”*  •




Memorandum - UN Under-Secretaty General for Legal Affairs
•  "*Issues related to General Assembly Resolution 67/19 2 December 2012*"  •​
The mistake that is often made by the use of the term "Palestine" is that the user assume a meaning out of context.  But there was no formal political subdivision or administrative autonomous region called "Palestine" during the Ottoman Empire.  It was just a local regional name. 

Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## Toddsterpatriot

Linkiloo said:


> If people can be married to their land, they can also get divorced from it.



Don't forget the restraining order.


----------



## P F Tinmore

RoccoR said:


> RE: Israeli forces shoot unarmed protesters from across Gaza security fence, killing at least 15
> ※→ P F Tinmore, et al,
> 
> And now you are just being a purveyor of disinformation.
> 
> 
> 
> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> 
> the discussion was about "*territorial integrity or political independence of any state."* It was not on the matter of citizenship.
> 
> 
> 
> You are following Israeli say so not the documents of the time.
> 
> From the Balfour Declaration through the UN Armistice Agreements of 1949, Palestine was the place.
> 
> After the Treaty of Lausanne, Palestinian was a recognized nationality and the Palestinians became the citizens of Palestine. Palestine was recognized as a state.
> 
> Then Israeli propaganda kicked in. From day one, Israeli say so claimed Israel to be a state and denied the existence of Palestine or the Palestinians. This has been repeated a gazillion times so people are inclined to believe it without question.
> 
> Of course there are no historical documents to back up this claim.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> *(COMMENT)*
> 
> As my narratives on "the Legal Entity" obviously have NOT communicated the point well enough, I decided to put this imaging to work.  While there might be several documents that probably make the same point, these two documents are probably the best and the sources are readily verifiable.
> 
> View attachment 188869
> A/AC.21/UK/42  25 February 1948
> MEMORANDUM “A”
> •  *"LEGAL MEANING OF THE “TERMINATION OF THE MANDATE”*  •
> 
> View attachment 188867
> Memorandum - UN Under-Secretaty General for Legal Affairs
> •  "*Issues related to General Assembly Resolution 67/19 2 December 2012*"  •​
> The mistake that is often made by the use of the term "Palestine" is that the user assume a meaning out of context.  But there was no formal political subdivision or administrative autonomous region called "Palestine" during the Ottoman Empire.  It was just a local regional name.
> 
> Most Respectfully,
> R
Click to expand...

OK, so?

Define legal entity.


----------



## RoccoR

RE: Israeli forces shoot unarmed protesters from across Gaza security fence, killing at least 15
※→ P F Tinmore, et al,

Whatever it is _(a construct that can act as one)_ → it was not a self-governing institution.

Legal entities are constructed and assembled  pertaining to whatever it is going to be applied.  In the case of Palestine, the LoN first constructed the Mandates not all of them the same, and the Allied Powers made a determination as to which Power assume responsibility. 

[QUOTE="P F Tinmore, post: 19757203, member: 21837"
OK, so?
Define legal entity.[/QUOTE]
*(COMMENT)*

In the case of the Mandate System (a construct) allowed a Nation to act as the parent over the entity _(in its entirety)_ as the Government.  Thus, the British acted in the name of the Government of Palestine. 

It is not up to you are I to determine what a legal entity is.  It is up to the author of the construct to make that clear.

For all intent and purposes, "Palestine" can be referred to as a "State" or "Country" as of December 2012.  Whether or not it can be described as "sovereign" or "self-governing" is a whole different matter. 

Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## P F Tinmore

RoccoR said:


> Whatever it is _(a construct that can act as one)_ → it was not a self-governing institution.


Irrelevant.


----------



## P F Tinmore

RoccoR said:


> In the case of the Mandate System (a construct) allowed a Nation to act as the parent over the entity _(in its entirety)_ as the Government. Thus, the British acted in the name of the Government of Palestine.


Indeed.


----------



## RoccoR

RE: Israeli forces shoot unarmed protesters from across Gaza security fence, killing at least 15
※→ P F Tinmore, et al,



P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> 
> Whatever it is _(a construct that can act as one)_ → it was not a self-governing institution.
> 
> 
> 
> Irrelevant.
Click to expand...

*(QUESTION)*

Just how can a entity be Sovereign if it is not self-governing?  Get real!

Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## P F Tinmore

RoccoR said:


> RE: Israeli forces shoot unarmed protesters from across Gaza security fence, killing at least 15
> ※→ P F Tinmore, et al,
> 
> 
> 
> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> 
> Whatever it is _(a construct that can act as one)_ → it was not a self-governing institution.
> 
> 
> 
> Irrelevant.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> *(QUESTION)*
> 
> Just how can a entity be Sovereign if it is not self-governing?  Get real!
> 
> Most Respectfully,
> R
Click to expand...

You have argued, when it comes to decolonizing, that Palestine is not a non self governing territory.

Make up your mind.


----------



## Hollie

This seems rather pointless. Hamas is paying their minions a fair wage to get themselves injured or killed. Take the work opportunity while it’s available.  



Israel Faces New Palestinian Tactic — ‘Kite Terror’

*Israel Faces New Palestinian Tactic — ‘Kite Terror’*
*



by Algemeiner Staff*




A Palestinian riot on the Israel-Gaza Strip border, April 13, 2018. Photo: Reuters / Ibraheem Abu Mustafa.

For the fourth time in recent days, a kite rigged with a Molotov cocktail was flown by Palestinian terrorists from the Hamas-ruled Gaza Strip into southern Israel on Tuesday, the Hebrew news outlet Mako reported.


----------



## teddyearp

Billo_Really said:


> teddyearp said:
> 
> 
> 
> No, but for sure their leadership is fucking them in the arse.
> 
> 
> As are the Palestinians, so why not both? Mutual recognition and peace and respect?
> 
> Yay or Nay?
> 
> 
> 
> Yay.
> 
> Now I demand recognition as one of the few posters at this website who are not afraid to answer direct questions.
> 
> In the words of Muhammed Ali...
> 
> _*"It is said that a great man knows his faults; my only fault, is not knowing just how great I really am!"*_​
Click to expand...

LOL and 

Welcome to Team Peace.  Sure we have our biases, but mutual recognition and respect are on our plate.


----------

