# 16 year old gang boss shows gun control doesn't work, even in Britain.....but...gun control?



## 2aguy (May 12, 2022)

16 years old.....in Britain.....responsible for several shootings in a country that bans and confiscates guns...

Hmmm....did the British government forget to include 16 year old gang leaders under their gun control laws?

*Harry O'Brien was just 16 when he was arrested for a series of violent and terrifying incidents linked to a drug-dealing 'graft line' in Dingle. O'Brien controlled a crew of dealers selling cannabis, but his "lucrative" trade was exposed after a "feud" led to three shootings in three weeks in South Liverpool. *

*One attack saw bullets fired from an Audi at a BMW, as the two cars raced side-by-side through the city at night. A stray bullet flew through the front door of an "entirely innocent" family's home and landed on their hallway stairs. 
----*

*A gunman on an electric bike peppered a family's living room with bullets and fired into another victim's bedroom. Finally, O'Brien had petrol poured through the letterbox of a mum's home and set ablaze, as she and her children ran for their lives.
-----
Last week Liverpool Crown Court heard O'Brien planned and took part in all three shootings, "orchestrated the arson", and the cannabis plot was "his enterprise". David Temkin, QC, prosecuting, said: "Harry O'Brien was at the heart of the criminality in this case."*
*
*
*Michael McClean, then 16, and Aaron Donohoe, then 19, were his "lieutenants", given "managerial responsibility" over his drug trade. "Trusted" Daniel Lawler, 19, joined O'Brien in carrying out two of the shootings, which all involved the same Glock semi-automatic gun - never recovered by police.*









						Taking 'very dangerous' child gang boss off street 'builds trust'
					

Merseyside Police are celebrating a major success in efforts to reduce gun crime




					www.liverpoolecho.co.uk
				




Criminals in Britain use guns when they want to use guns.......the nature of British criminals is changing....they no longer respect British police or British laws.......


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## Captain Caveman (May 12, 2022)

The forum gun retard strikes again.


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## Vagabond63 (May 13, 2022)

Captain Caveman said:


> The forum gun retard strikes again.


What makes me laugh is the fact that whenever such gun violence is "discussed"in on this board and I use that term loosly, these people shout, "it's criminal on criminal: that doesn't count!  Yet in other countries where it's "criminal on criminal"  suddenly it's, look we need more guns to protect ourselves because gun controls in other countries don't work.


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## 2aguy (May 13, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> What makes me laugh is the fact that whenever such gun violence is "discussed"in on this board and I use that term loosly, these people shout, "it's criminal on criminal: that doesn't count!  Yet in other countries where it's "criminal on criminal"  suddenly it's, look we need more guns to protect ourselves because gun controls in other countries don't work.



The majority of all gun murder is, in fact, committed against actual criminals…..but law abiding people are the targets of criminals…….they are raped, robbed, murdered, beaten and atabbed……you ignore these crimes and believe people should simply accept their fate, women should close their eyes and think of the queen….and that magic doors and windows are all people need…….

in Britain….

Again…..a woman can’t get a gun to prevent being raped, beaten, and murdered because self defense is not a good reason to own and carry a gun..

A rich member of the House of Lords who wants to take his rich friends bird hunting on one of his many private estates can get a gun because hunting birds is a good reason to own a gun….

that makes sense to you……


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## Vagabond63 (May 13, 2022)

2aguy said:


> …you ignore these crimes and believe people should simply accept their fate, women should close their eyes and think of the queen….and that magic doors and windows are all people need……


No I don't, I merely believe that guns are not the only available solution, nor do I believe they are the best solution.


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## 2aguy (May 13, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> No I don't, I merely believe that guns are not the only available solution, nor do I believe they are the best solution.




Yes....you do.......guns are the most effective tool against violent criminals...anything else is second rate....

Again....

A woman wants a gun to prevent herself from being beaten, raped and murdered......in Britain, this is not a good reason to own and carry a gun.

A rich member of the House of Lords wants to take his drinking buddies to one of his many private estates to go bird hunting......according to the British government, this is a good reason to have a gun.

This makes sense to you.


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## Vagabond63 (May 17, 2022)

2aguy said:


> Yes....you do.......


No I don't, can't you read?


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## Vagabond63 (May 17, 2022)

2aguy said:


> A woman wants a gun to prevent herself from being beaten, raped and murdered......in Britain, this is not a good reason to own and carry a gun.


I the UK, 85-90% of women want even stronger gun controls than we have already. So it's highly unlikely a woman over here would want a gun at all.


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## Vagabond63 (May 17, 2022)

2aguy said:


> A rich member of the House of Lords wants to take his drinking buddies to one of his many private estates to go bird hunting......according to the British government, this is a good reason to have a gun.


Most shoots are run as businesses nowadays, you don't have to be a lord to own a private estate. All guns are licensed and registered, and kept unloaded and secure when not in use.


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## 2aguy (May 17, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> I the UK, 85-90% of women want even stronger gun controls than we have already. So it's highly unlikely a woman over here would want a gun at all.




Yes...because they don't know that guns are the most effective tool to protect them from violent criminals...


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## Vagabond63 (May 19, 2022)

2aguy said:


> Yes...because they don't know that guns are the most effective tool to protect them from violent criminals...


Oh, I think they know very well what the effect of arming all and sundry with firearms is. They looked at what happened at Dunblane and then what is still happening in schools across America to this day, and concluded that it is far more important in a civilised society to keep its children as safe as possible from harm, and that includes having guns in the home. 








						Mother Facing Charges After 2nd Grade Son Brings Gun to Disney Magnet School, Weapon Discharges In Backpack
					

The mother of a second grader at Disney Magnet School in Chicago’s Buena Park neighborhood is facing child endangerment charges and expected in court after her son Tuesday brought her gun to school and the weapon “accidentally discharged” in the classroom while inside his backpack, police say.




					www.nbcchicago.com
				




Interesting statistics. The US has had 57 times as many school shootings as the other major industrialized nations combined


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## 2aguy (May 19, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> Oh, I think they know very well what the effect of arming all and sundry with firearms is. They looked at what happened at Dunblane and then what is still happening in schools across America to this day, and concluded that it is far more important in a civilised society to keep its children as safe as possible from harm, and that includes having guns in the home.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Wrong......the way they got that number is by adding in every kind of crime that happened close to a school, including events that happened after the school was closed...you idiot.

And after Dunblane you still have mass public shootings at the same rate, about one every 10 years.....the gun confiscation after Dunblane didn't change your rate of mass public shootings, you doofus.

Cumbria, and Moss side happened after Dunblane......

And, since you keep reminding us that people can still own guns in Britain, the only thing that has stopped more mass public shootings is the nuts in your country don't commit them......since they have access to guns...as you keep telling us....

Americans use their legal guns 1.1 million times a year to stop rape, robbery, murders, stabbings, and beatings.....this includes protecting children from those same attacks........

Can you tell which number is bigger?


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## Vagabond63 (May 19, 2022)

2aguy said:


> Americans use their legal guns 1.1 million times a year to stop rape, robbery, murders, stabbings, and beatings...



Ah, yes, the usual BS "statistic" that you made up. Since there is no official definition of a DGU, and no record is kept of such alleged occurances, we are left with "surveys", glorified opinion polls. For all you know, the tue figure could be a tenth of that quoted by you, or ten times that quoted by you.

Cue torrent of cut/paste BS... Go!


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## Vagabond63 (May 19, 2022)

2aguy said:


> Wrong......the way they got that number is by adding in every kind of crime that happened close to a school, including events that happened after the school was closed...you idiot.


Erm, no they didn't.

*The definition: *The parameters we followed in this count are  -

*Shooting must involve at least one person being shot (not including the shooter)*
*Shooting must occur on school grounds*
We included gang violence, fights and domestic violence (but our count is NOT limited to those categories)
We included grades Kindergarten through college/university level as well as vocational schools
We included accidental discharge of a firearm as long as the first two parameters are met


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## 2aguy (May 19, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> Ah, yes, the usual BS "statistic" that you made up. Since there is no official definition of a DGU, and no record is kept of such alleged occurances, we are left with "surveys", glorified opinion polls. For all you know, the tue figure could be a tenth of that quoted by you, or ten times that quoted by you.
> 
> Cue torrent of cut/paste BS... Go!




Yeah...only decades of research both government and private.....trained researchers using actual research techniques, but you have to deny them because they show everything you believe about guns is wrong.......

A quick guide to the studies and the numbers.....the full lay out of what was studied by each study is in the links....

The name of the group doing the study, the year of the study, the number of defensive gun uses and if police and military defensive gun uses are included.....notice the bill clinton and obama defensive gun use research is highlighted.....

GunCite-Gun Control-How Often Are Guns Used in Self-Defense 

GunCite Frequency of Defensive Gun Use in Previous Surveys

Field...1976....3,052,717 ( no cops, no military)

DMIa 1978...2,141,512 ( no cops, no military)

L.A. TIMES...1994...3,609,68 ( no cops, no military)

Kleck......1994...2.5 million ( no cops, no military)

2021 national firearm survey, Prof. William English, PhD. designed by Deborah Azrael of Harvard T. Chan School of public policy, and  Mathew Miller, Northeastern university.......1.67 million defensive uses annually.

CDC...1996-1998... 1.1 million  averaged over  those years.( no cops, no military)

Obama's CDC....2013....500,000--3million

--------------------


Bordua...1977...1,414,544

DMIb...1978...1,098,409 ( no cops, no military)

Hart...1981...1.797,461 ( no cops, no military)

Mauser...1990...1,487,342 ( no cops,no military)

Gallup...1993...1,621,377 ( no cops, no military)

DEPT. OF JUSTICE...1994...1.5 million ( the bill clinton study)

Journal of Quantitative Criminology--- 989,883 times per year."

(Based on survey data from a 2000 study published in the _Journal of Quantitative Criminology_,[17] U.S. civilians use guns to defend themselves and others from crime at least 989,883 times per year.[18])

Paper: "Measuring Civilian Defensive Firearm Use: A Methodological Experiment." By David McDowall and others. _Journal of Quantitative Criminology_, March 2000. Measuring Civilian Defensive Firearm Use: A Methodological Experiment - Springer


-------------------------------------------

Ohio...1982...771,043

Gallup...1991...777,152

Tarrance... 1994... 764,036 (no cops, no military)

Lawerence Southwich Jr. 400,000 fewer violent crimes and at least 800,000 violent crimes deterred..

*2021 national firearms survey..

The survey was designed by Deborah Azrael of the Harvard T.H. Chan School of Public Health, and Matthew Miller of Northeastern University,*
*----
The survey further finds that approximately a third of gun owners (31.1%) have used a firearm to defend themselves or their property, often on more than one occasion, and it estimates that guns are used defensively by firearms owners in approximately 1.67 million incidents per year. Handguns are the most common firearm employed for self-defense (used in 65.9% of defensive incidents), and in most defensive incidents (81.9%) no shot was fired. Approximately a quarter (25.2%) of defensive incidents occurred within the gun owner's home, and approximately half (53.9%) occurred outside their home, but on their property. About one out of ten (9.1%) defensive gun uses occurred in public, and about one out of twenty (4.8%) occurred at work.
2021 National Firearms Survey*


*And this....*

*The same journal issue that published the Kleck & Gertz study also published a response by Marvin Wolfgang. He had long been the most-influential criminologist in the English-speaking world, and he was past president of the American Society of Criminology. Wolfgang wrote: “I am as strong a gun-control advocate as can be found among the criminologists in this country ... . I would eliminate all guns from the civilian population and maybe even from the police. I hate guns ... . **Nonetheless, the methodological soundness of the current Kleck and Gertz study is clear ... . The Kleck and Gertz study impresses me for the caution the authors exercise and the elaborate nuances they examine methodologically. I do not like their conclusions that having a gun can be useful, but I cannot fault their methodology. They have tried earnestly to meet all objections in advance and have done exceedingly well.”*

*








						An Official Journal Of The NRA | How Often Do Armed Citizens Defend Themselves?
					

Gun-control groups hate this question. They lie about this question and shun the real answers to it. They do this because the answer is ... a lot. Here are the facts about armed self-defense in America.




					www.americas1stfreedom.org
				



*


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## 2aguy (May 19, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> Erm, no they didn't.
> 
> *The definition: *The parameters we followed in this count are  -
> 
> ...




Nope.......when there are no kids in the school, it isn't a school shooting....you moron....when someone pulls into a parking lot and commits suicide...that isn't a school shooting....you doofus.

That is how they lie....


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## 2aguy (May 19, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> Erm, no they didn't.
> 
> *The definition: *The parameters we followed in this count are  -
> 
> ...




Hey...dipstick...notice what isn't part of that definition?    How they lie, in order to increase their fake number?

They do not have "The students of the school were the targets of the attack."

That means, you uninformed dolt....that the gang members playing hoops on the playground on a Saturday night who get shot at by a rival gang....is a school shooting according to their definition......the gang members selling drugs parked next to a school who get shot at......is a school shooting......

We had a local guy walk to a school playground, he sat down on the bottom of the slide and shot himself....after school, no kids around.....that, according to morons like you equals a school shooting.....you idiot.


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## 2aguy (May 19, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> Oh, I think they know very well what the effect of arming all and sundry with firearms is. They looked at what happened at Dunblane and then what is still happening in schools across America to this day, and concluded that it is far more important in a civilised society to keep its children as safe as possible from harm, and that includes having guns in the home.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




You are a moron..........

This is a school shooting when you follow the links....in your own link...

Someone shot in an apartment on campus...

Someone not from the school is shot by someone who also is not from the school

A man, not identified, is shot in the parking lot of a school...(read, gang member....)

A teacher of a gun safety class.......more than likely after school hours....negligently discharged the gun......you moron....









						There has been, on average, 1 school shooting every week this year | CNN
					

We're 21 weeks into 2018, and there have been 23 school shootings where someone was hurt or killed. That averages out to more than 1 shooting a week.




					www.cnn.com
				




*Which of those above are shootings that targeted students?  Kind of an important distinction when it comes to claiming they are "School Shootings...."*


None of the notes at that link give any details about the shooting or who was shot, or who shot them....why?

Because they want to lie, and hide the fact that many of these shootings are drug and crime related....you idiot...


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## Vagabond63 (May 19, 2022)

2aguy said:


> You are a moron..........
> 
> This is a school shooting when you follow the links....in your own link...
> 
> ...


Now you are getting desperate, so criminals don't count, then they do, then the shooter/victim doesn't count if they don't belong to the school where the shooting occurred, etc, etc. 

Fine, in that case I challenge you to document each and every one of your 1.1 million DGUs you claim go on every year in the USA.


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## 2aguy (May 19, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> Now you are getting desperate, so criminals don't count, then they do, then the shooter/victim doesn't count if they don't belong to the school where the shooting occurred, etc, etc.
> 
> Fine, in that case I challenge you to document each and every one of your 1.1 million DGUs you claim go on every year in the USA.



No, you are trying to hide the issues…..

Criminals shooting at other criminals for crime and fun are not the same as nuts going to a public place to murder innocent strangers

You have to mix the two together so you can lie about our gun crime.

And the 1.1 million from the research?   You go and ask the government and private sector, professional researchers who did the research about the individuals they examined….

Of course, you will be busy since there are about 18 different studies you have to look at.


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## 2aguy (May 19, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> Now you are getting desperate, so criminals don't count, then they do, then the shooter/victim doesn't count if they don't belong to the school where the shooting occurred, etc, etc.
> 
> Fine, in that case I challenge you to document each and every one of your 1.1 million DGUs you claim go on every year in the USA.



Well, moron…..you use a link that is deceitful…. They claim “school” shootings……to everyone but you and them,  that would indicate that the students and staff of the school were the targets of the attack….

Of course, since they lie,  they include people shot on the weekend when no one is at the school, drug involved shootings across from the school, people who commit suicide after all the students and staff are gone, and they even include apartments near colleges…….

And then you want us to respect you and your source?

You are an irrational extremist.


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## Vagabond63 (May 27, 2022)

2aguy said:


> Of course, you will be busy since there are about 18 different studies you have to look at.


No I won't because you've been copy/pasting this BS for a long time now. All these "studies" are just glorified opinion polls, and I suspect a judicial review of these so called DGU incidents would lead to a fair proportion of these cases being considered criminal activity on the part of the person "defending" themself. Your 1.1 million figure is one you made up youself.


2aguy said:


> No, you are trying to hide the issues…..


On the contrary, I've nothing to hide, unlike the gun lobby over there.


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## Vagabond63 (May 28, 2022)

Here's another list of School shootings from Wikipedia, with links, just for you.




__





						List of school shootings in the United States - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org
				



Oh, while I'm at it, Wiki also has a list of Workplace killings, worldwide, guess where most of them happened?




__





						List of rampage killers (workplace killings) - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org


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## 2aguy (May 28, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> No I won't because you've been copy/pasting this BS for a long time now. All these "studies" are just glorified opinion polls, and I suspect a judicial review of these so called DGU incidents would lead to a fair proportion of these cases being considered criminal activity on the part of the person "defending" themself. Your 1.1 million figure is one you made up youself.
> 
> On the contrary, I've nothing to hide, unlike the gun lobby over there.



Nope, that is from the Centers for Disease Control……Threally is also the research done by the Department of Justice…in Clinton’s attempt to discredit Gary Kleck’s research….that found the number to be 1.5 million times a year…

Two government agencies, with trained researchers who used professional research techniques….and those are just two out of 18 studies….


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## 2aguy (May 28, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> Here's another list of School shootings from Wikipedia, with links, just for you.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



When you reach 15 million people murdered let us know….the governments of Europe murdered that many in just 6 years…….all of our criminal shootings over 82 years = about 820,000…….

82 years of criminal shootings and it doesn’t even come close the the number of people murdered by your governments……after those governments took guns away from their citizens on the promise it would make them safer….

And, of course…….you still have to get past the fact that guns in America save more lives than criminals take…….lives saved by armed citizens…1.1 million a year, on average according to the Centers for Disease control…or 1.5 million according to the Departmemt of Justice….


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## Vagabond63 (May 28, 2022)

2aguy said:


> Nope, that is from the Centers for Disease Control…


Really? Then you should have no problem providing a direct link to the CDC survey that quotes that exact figure. I'll wait...but I won't hold my breath.


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## Vagabond63 (May 28, 2022)

2aguy said:


> When you reach 15 million people murdered let us know…


Apparently America already has with your own genocide of native American tribes, people in glass houses, etc.


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## 2aguy (May 28, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> Really? Then you should have no problem providing a direct link to the CDC survey that quotes that exact figure. I'll wait...but I won't hold my breath.




Here....everything on the CDC research......one study out of the 18 on defensive gun use....

*Then, unbeknownst to almost everyone, in the late 1990s, the CDC conducted its own DGU study. The results indicate likely more than a million DGUs annually. The study was never released and was kept secret until decades later, when someone leaked it. The CDC denied that it had suppressed its own research; rather, the CDC claimed that it was still working the data analysis and would release the study when the internal work was finished. As of 2022, that internal review apparently remains a low priority.*









						An Official Journal Of The NRA | How Often Do Armed Citizens Defend Themselves?
					

Gun-control groups hate this question. They lie about this question and shun the real answers to it. They do this because the answer is ... a lot. Here are the facts about armed self-defense in America.




					www.americas1stfreedom.org
				




And then this....on that particular research...

SSRN Electronic Library



Abstract​In 1996, 1997, and 1998, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) conducted large-scale surveys asking about defensive gun use (DGU) in four to seven states. Analysis of the raw data allows the estimation of the prevalence of DGU for those areas. Data pertaining to the same sets of states from the 1993 National Self-Defense Survey (Kleck and Gertz 1995) allow these results to be extrapolated to the U.S. as a whole. CDC’s survey data confirm previous high estimates of DGU prevalence, disconfirm estimates derived from the National Crime Victimization Survey, and indicate that defensive uses of guns by crime victims are far more common than offensive uses by criminals. CDC has never reported these results.

=========



*Reason article on the revised paper..*

*in direct response to queries from Reason, who first directly notified Kleck of his error, he worked through and has since issued a revised version of the paper, published as was the original as a working paper on the Social Science Research Network. In the new version, Kleck re-analyzes the BRFSS survey data accurately as limited to a small number of states, and ultimately concludes, when their surveys are analyzed in conjunction with his NSDS, that their surveys indicate likely over 1 million defensive uses of guns (DGUs) a year nationally, compared to the over 2 million of his own NSDS.*

*Here's how Kleck got to that new conclusion. The BRFSS, as Kleck describes it in his paper, "are high-quality telephone surveys of very large probability samples of U.S. adults…even just the subset of four to seven state surveys that asked about DGU in 1996-1998 interviewed 3,197-4,500 adults, depending on the year. This is more people than were asked about this topic in any other surveys, other than the National Self-Defense Survey conducted in 1993 by Kleck and Gertz (1995), who asked DGU questions of 4,977 people." The BRFSS asked about defensive uses of guns in seven states in 1996, seven in 1997, and four in 1998.*
*
Kleck judged the "wording of the DGU question in the BRFSS surveys" as "also excellent, avoiding many problems with the wording that afflicted the DGU questions used in other surveys."
*
*The BRFSS results were designed to exclude "uses by military, police and others with firearm-related jobs" and "uses against animals." The survey was designed to garner "yes" answers as long as a gun was used in presumed self-defense in any location (not just the home), whether or not the gun was actually fired (as, per Kleck's survey, around 3/4 of the time one needn't fire the gun to have found it useful in deterring an intruder or attacker).*



A Second Look at a Controversial Study About Defensive Gun Use



-------



Original version before he went back to revise it...

The actual paper by Kleck revealing the CDC hiding data..



SSRN Electronic Library

The timing of CDC’s addition of a DGU question to the BRFSS is of some interest. Prior to 1996, the BRFSS had never included a question about DGU. Kleck and Gertz (1995) conducted their survey in February through April 1993, presented their estimate that there were over 2 million DGUs in 1992 at the annual meetings of the American Society of Criminology in November 1994, and published it in the Journal of Criminal Law and Criminology in the Fall of 1995. CDC added a DGU question to the BRFSS the very first year they could do so after that 1995 publication, in the 1996 edition. CDC was not the only federal agency during the Clinton administration to field a survey addressing the prevalence of DGU at that particular time. The National Institute of Justice (NIJ) financed a national survey devoting even more detailed attention to estimating DGU prevalence, which was fielded in November and December 1994, just months after preliminary results of the 1993 Kleck/Gertz survey became known. Neither CDC nor NIJ had ever financed research into DGU before 1996. Perhaps there was just “something in the air” that motivated the two agencies to suddenly decide in 1994 to address the topic. Another interpretation, however, is that fielding of the surveys was triggered by the Kleck/Gertz findings that DGU was common, and that these agencies hoped to obtain lower DGU prevalence estimates than those obtained by Kleck/Gertz. Low estimates would have implied fewer beneficial uses of firearms, results that would have been far more congenial to the strongly pro-control positions of the Clinton administration.


CDC, in Surveys It Never Bothered Making Public, Provides More Evidence That Plenty of Americans Innocently Defend Themselves with Guns



Kleck's new paper—"What Do CDC's Surveys Say About the Frequency of Defensive Gun Uses?"—finds that the agency had asked about DGUs in its Behavioral Risk Factor Surveillance System in 1996, 1997, and 1998.

Those polls, Kleck writes,



> are high-quality telephone surveys of enormous probability samples of U.S. adults, asking about a wide range of health-related topics. Those that addressed DGU asked more people about this topic than any other surveys conducted before or since. For example, the 1996 survey asked the DGU question of 5,484 people. The next-largest number questioned about DGU was 4,977 by Kleck and Gertz (1995), and sample sizes were much smaller in all the rest of surveys on the topic (Kleck 2001).


Kleck was impressed with how well the survey worded its question: "During the last 12 months, have you confronted another person with a firearm, even if you did not fire it, to protect yourself, your property, or someone else?" Respondents were told to leave out incidents from occupations, like policing, where using firearms is part of the job. Kleck is impressed with how the question excludes animals but includes DGUs outside the home as well as within it.

Kleck is less impressed with the fact that the question was only asked of people who admitted to owning guns in their home earlier in the survey, and that they asked no follow-up questions regarding the specific nature of the DGU incident.

From Kleck's own surveys, he found that only 79 percent of those who reported a DGU "had also reported a gun in their household at the time of the interview," so he thinks whatever numbers the CDC found need to be revised upward to account for that. (Kleck speculates that CDC showed a sudden interest in the question of DGUs starting in 1996 because Kleck's own famous/notorious survey had been published in 1995.)

At any rate, Kleck downloaded the datasets for those three years and found that the "weighted percent who reported a DGU...was 1.3% in 1996, 0.9% in 1997, 1.0% in 1998, and 1.07% in all three surveys combined."





Kleck figures if you do the adjustment upward he thinks necessary for those who had DGU incidents without personally owning a gun in the home at the time of the survey, and then the adjustment downward he thinks necessary because CDC didn't do detailed follow-ups to confirm the nature of the incident, you get 1.24 percent, a close match to his own 1.326 percent figure.

He concludes that the small difference between his estimate and the CDC's "can be attributed to declining rates of violent crime, which accounts for most DGUs. With fewer occasions for self-defense in the form of violent victimizations, one would expect fewer DGUs."

Kleck further details how much these CDC surveys confirmed his own controversial work:



> *The final adjusted prevalence of 1.24% therefore implies that in an average year during 1996–1998, 2.46 million U.S. adults used a gun for self-defense. *
> 
> This estimate, based on an enormous sample of 12,870 cases (unweighted) in a nationally representative sample, strongly confirms the 2.5 million past-12-months estimate obtained Kleck and Gertz (1995)....CDC's results, then, imply that guns were used defensively by victims about 3.6 times as often as they were used offensively by criminals.


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## 2aguy (May 28, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> Apparently America already has with your own genocide of native American tribes, people in glass houses, etc.




Wow...you are dumb....there was no genocide of Indians in this country......British and other Europeans came here with diseases the Indians had no immunity against.....this killed lots and lots of Indians....

Meanwhile, Britain was a prime mover in the Trans-atlantic slave trade, imperialism, colonialism, socialism, communism......the persecution of the Irish....the potato famine...

If anyone lives in a glass house it is you and the other Brits, who live under the protection of Americans with guns, then raise their noses when Americans hold the Right to self defense as a vital part of our freedom.....

Without American guns, your Royal family would have been murdered, the Jews in your country would have been murdered....and German, or Russian, would have supplanted the Queen's English as your common tongue...


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## Vagabond63 (May 29, 2022)

2aguy said:


> there was no genocide of Indians in this country


Keep telling yourself that, if it lets you sleep at night. There are people out there like you, it seems, who continue to deny the Holocaust, so sure, Americans never slaughtered indigenous native tribes, yeah, right, whatever. Psst! It's even in Wikipedia!





						Genocide of indigenous peoples - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org


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## Vagabond63 (May 29, 2022)

2aguy said:


> Here....everything on the CDC research......one study out of the 18 on defensive gun use....


No, not what I asked for, you just regurgitated Kleck BS.

If you read carefully I asked for a direct link to the CDC CDC survey that quotes that exact figure, the actual survey data that the CDC itself, concludes with that exact figure.

If you can, fair enough, if not then you lie when you keep stating the CDC itself claims 1.1 million DGUs every year.

Like I said, I'll wait.


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## 2aguy (May 29, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> No, not what I asked for, you just regurgitated Kleck BS.
> 
> If you read carefully I asked for a direct link to the CDC CDC survey that quotes that exact figure, the actual survey data that the CDC itself, concludes with that exact figure.
> 
> ...




Nope.......

The CDC began to study gun self defense....their research showed possibly millions of defensive gun uses....and they stopped the research...this was under bill, the rapist, clinton, and they were trying to disprove Kleck.......and they couldn't do it, so they didn't release their information...but Kleck found it.....and posted it.........


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## Hugo Furst (May 31, 2022)




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## Vagabond63 (May 31, 2022)

Hugo Furst said:


> View attachment 652214


*cough* Sheepdog *cough*


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## Vagabond63 (May 31, 2022)

2aguy said:


> Nope.......
> 
> The CDC began to study gun self defense....their research showed possibly millions of defensive gun uses....and they stopped the research...this was under bill, the rapist, clinton, and they were trying to disprove Kleck.......and they couldn't do it, so they didn't release their information...but Kleck found it.....and posted it.........


Total BS a usual from you. Read your own sources, they disprove your statement. Oh, and I'm still waiting for that direct link to the CDC actualy staing there are 1.1 million DGUs in the USA annually. You keep stating that so it shouldn't be a problem to provide the direct link I asked for... Although you used to post a 2.5 million figure until that was debunked, oh yes wasn't that Kleck, or Lott, or some other pseudo-scientist.


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## 2aguy (May 31, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> Oh, I think they know very well what the effect of arming all and sundry with firearms is. They looked at what happened at Dunblane and then what is still happening in schools across America to this day, and concluded that it is far more important in a civilised society to keep its children as safe as possible from harm, and that includes having guns in the home.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



We’ve had 13 mass school shootings in 56 years


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## Vagabond63 (Jun 1, 2022)

2aguy said:


> We’ve had 13 mass school shootings in 56 years


We had 1, even if what you say is true, which I doubt, that's still 13 too many in my view.


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## 2aguy (Jun 1, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> We had 1, even if what you say is true, which I doubt, that's still 13 too many in my view.



And your gun control laws didn't stop you from having more......you had guns and your nuts didn't attack schools....you keep telling us that you can have shotguns, and you don't have school shootings....

What you don't understand is that your country has guns....illegal guns......and if someone wants to shoot up a school, a mall, a theater.....your gun control laws aren't stopping them....

You have a tiny population....your population hasn't been devestated by decades of family destruction.......now it has.....in America, our out of wedlock birthrates in the black community are over 75%....that leads to crime, and drug abuse, which leads to violence......you are going to be experiencing this....you can already see the signs.....and gun violence is going to happen....you can't keep illegal guns off your tiny island...


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## Vagabond63 (Jun 2, 2022)

2aguy said:


> And your gun control laws didn't stop you from having more......you had guns and your nuts didn't attack schools....you keep telling us that you can have shotguns, and you don't have school shootings....
> 
> What you don't understand is that your country has guns....illegal guns......and if someone wants to shoot up a school, a mall, a theater.....your gun control laws aren't stopping them....


Yes they do. They limit the numbers of firearms available to the general public and they carefully vet those who want to own firearms to weed out those who may be psychologically prone to commit these atrocities. Criminals do not shoot up schools, malls, theatres, etc.  So called "normal" people do this and our gun control laws have been effective so far, in weeding these people out.

These "illegal" guns you keep blathering on about are used by criminals to protect themselves against other criminals; very, very rarely do members of the general public get involved in such gun violence and that more by accident than design.


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## Vagabond63 (Jun 2, 2022)

2aguy said:


> You have a tiny population....your population hasn't been devestated by decades of family destruction....


Well, that's a change of diatribe from you; you used to keep going on about our population being devastated by warand family destruction, now it hasn't. Make up your mind and at least be consistant when you try to fear monger.


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## 2aguy (Jun 2, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> Yes they do. They limit the numbers of firearms available to the general public and they carefully vet those who want to own firearms to weed out those who may be psychologically prone to commit these atrocities. Criminals do not shoot up schools, malls, theatres, etc.  So called "normal" people do this and our gun control laws have been effective so far, in weeding these people out.
> 
> These "illegal" guns you keep blathering on about are used by criminals to protect themselves against other criminals; very, very rarely do members of the general public get involved in such gun violence and that more by accident than design.





Vagabond63 said:


> These "illegal" guns you keep blathering on about are used by criminals to protect themselves against other criminals; very, very rarely do members of the general public get involved in such gun violence and that more by accident than design.



*These "illegal" guns you keep blathering on about are used by criminals to protect themselves against other criminals; very, very rarely do members of the general public get involved in such gun violence and that more by accident than design.


And yet you fail to understand this is the same here in the U.S.........no different...stay out of tiny areas of democrat party controlled cities and you won't run into the criminals shooting each other.....don't date or marry them either...*


Wrong......there are guns in Britain and since mass shooters plot and plan 6 months to two years in advance, securing a weapon wouldn't be an issue......

And, idiot....our criminals are no different, the vast majority of our gun murders are criminals murdered by other criminals......largely in democrat party controlled cities where they keep releasing them from prison, over and over again..


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## 2aguy (Jun 2, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> Total BS a usual from you. Read your own sources, they disprove your statement. Oh, and I'm still waiting for that direct link to the CDC actualy staing there are 1.1 million DGUs in the USA annually. You keep stating that so it shouldn't be a problem to provide the direct link I asked for... Although you used to post a 2.5 million figure until that was debunked, oh yes wasn't that Kleck, or Lott, or some other pseudo-scientist.




I gave you the story of the CDC.......they buried the study.......because it didn't discredit Kleck's work...but the research was finally found...

Government agencies don't stop research or bury studies that support their views......they bury the ones that go against what they are pushing....

The 2.5 million is the one the CDC and the Department of Justice tried to debunk...they couldn't......so the CDC buried their study, and the Department of Justice gave the number at 1.5 million......and the other 16 studies came out with rates just as high...


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## Big Bend Texas (Jun 2, 2022)

2aguy said:


> 16 years old.....in Britain.....responsible for several shootings in a country that bans and confiscates guns...
> 
> Hmmm....did the British government forget to include 16 year old gang leaders under their gun control laws?
> 
> ...


The real difference is that in GB if you use a gun in a crime you're going to a very unpleasant place for a very, very long time so most avoid their use.

At one time we had extreme penalties for using a firearm in connection with a crime but the bleeding hearts that that was too mean so for the last decade or so we've been slowly unraveling all of the good work done in the eighties and nineties to put a real hurt on violent crime, particularly gang violence and crime.


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## Big Bend Texas (Jun 2, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> Total BS a usual from you. Read your own sources, they disprove your statement. Oh, and I'm still waiting for that direct link to the CDC actualy staing there are 1.1 million DGUs in the USA annually. You keep stating that so it shouldn't be a problem to provide the direct link I asked for... Although you used to post a 2.5 million figure until that was debunked, oh yes wasn't that Kleck, or Lott, or some other pseudo-scientist.


It was never debunked and the CDC tried to bury their results by not publishing the study they'd spent 10 Million putting together when they didn't like their own results.









						Unpublished CDC Study Confirms More than 2 Million Defensive Handgun Uses Annually
					

An unpublished Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) study confirms Florida State University criminologist Gary Kleck’s findings of more than two million defensive handgun uses (DGUs) per year.




					www.lawenforcementtoday.com


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## Vagabond63 (Jun 2, 2022)

Big Bend Texas said:


> It was never debunked and the CDC tried to bury their results by not publishing the study they'd spent 10 Million putting together when they didn't like their own results.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thank you. So the CDC never stated that there were 1.1 million DGUs in the US every year, it was KLeck who suggested such a figure, so 2aGuy, lied. Thanks for proving that.


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## Vagabond63 (Jun 3, 2022)

Big Bend Texas said:


> It was never debunked and the CDC tried to bury their results by not publishing the study they'd spent 10 Million putting together when they didn't like their own results.


Well the uproarious laughter that greeted Kleck when he published forced him to withdraw the study and down grade the original numbers. The CDC never carried out a DGU survey, they added a DGU optional question for each state to add or not as it saw fit. Only a few states asked the question and the CDC found the data insufficient to draw any conclusions so just left the data on their publically accessable database, where Kleck came across it and used their figures to try to bolster his own "study".


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## Vagabond63 (Jun 3, 2022)

Big Bend Texas said:


> It was never debunked and the CDC tried to bury their results by not publishing the study they'd spent 10 Million putting together when they didn't like their own results.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Interesting snipet from your article, you realise if you look at each of these situations from the other side's perspective, in two cases, it can be argued that the people he encountered were legitimate DGUs,
_While working undercover I have experienced potential lethal encounters on no fewer than three occasions. First, I had a shotgun pulled on me by a (suspect) who wanted me out of his “hood” in Downey. Second, I had a person try to carjack my undercover vehicle until I pulled my handgun to defend myself in Santa Ana. Third, I had to pull my weapon on a person who challenged my presence by threatening great bodily injury since I was on “his turf”—which was the public housing projects in Los Angeles._


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## Big Bend Texas (Jun 3, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> Interesting snipet from your article, you realise if you look at each of these situations from the other side's perspective, in two cases, it can be argued that the people he encountered were legitimate DGUs,
> _While working undercover I have experienced potential lethal encounters on no fewer than three occasions. First, I had a shotgun pulled on me by a (suspect) who wanted me out of his “hood” in Downey. Second, I had a person try to carjack my undercover vehicle until I pulled my handgun to defend myself in Santa Ana. Third, I had to pull my weapon on a person who challenged my presence by threatening great bodily injury since I was on “his turf”—which was the public housing projects in Los Angeles._


No you can't.  You cannot legally use or threaten the use of deadly force absent a clearly observable and articulable imminent and immediate grave bodily harm or death.

There is no legitimate use of force as long as the subject is lawfully present and acting in a lawful manner.

Felons with guns are neither.


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## Vagabond63 (Jun 4, 2022)

Big Bend Texas said:


> No you can't.  You cannot legally use or threaten the use of deadly force absent a clearly observable and articulable imminent and immediate grave bodily harm or death.
> 
> There is no legitimate use of force as long as the subject is lawfully present and acting in a lawful manner.
> 
> Felons with guns are neither.


Dream on. How many people in the US actually know or care about that. Stand your ground laws in the US, for example, are effectively licences to comit murder, all you have to do is say, "I felt my life was in danger"


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## francoHFW (Aug 1, 2022)

2aguy said:


> Yes....you do.......guns are the most effective tool against violent criminals...anything else is second rate....
> 
> Again....
> 
> ...


Nobody is stupid enough to listen to American conservatives on the subject that's for sure... LOL.


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