# Swedish parents keep 2-year-old's gender secret



## PoliticalChic (Jun 30, 2009)

> A couple of Swedish parents have stirred up debate in the country by refusing to reveal whether their two-and-a-half-year-old child is a boy or a girl.
> 
> Pops parents [see footnote], both 24, made a decision when their baby was born to keep Pops sex a secret. Aside from a select few  those who have changed the childs diaper  nobody knows Pops gender; if anyone enquires, Pops parents simply say they dont disclose this information.
> 
> ...



Swedish parents keep 2-year-old's gender secret - The Local

Can you take a guess as to whether these parents are liberal or conservative?


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## Luissa (Jun 30, 2009)

Did you ever think maybe Pop is both and there are waiting for he/she to decide what they want to be?
Plus we can tell you are a conservative because you feel the need to question someone else's parenting skills.


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## Anguille (Jun 30, 2009)

Luissa said:


> Plus we can tell you are a conservative because you feel the need to question someone else's parenting skills.


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## PoliticalChic (Jun 30, 2009)

Luissa said:


> Did you ever think maybe Pop is both and there are waiting for he/she to decide what they want to be?
> Plus we can tell you are a conservative because you feel the need to question someone else's parenting skills.



Isn't it painfully clear that these parents have no parenting skills and no common sense either?  

And BTW, I've regularly proclaimed quite proudly that I am a conservative.


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## Anguille (Jun 30, 2009)

PoliticalChic said:


> > A couple of Swedish parents have stirred up debate in the country by refusing to reveal whether their two-and-a-half-year-old child is a boy or a girl.
> >
> > Pop&#8217;s parents [see footnote], both 24, made a decision when their baby was born to keep Pop&#8217;s sex a secret. Aside from a select few &#8211; those who have changed the child&#8217;s diaper &#8211; nobody knows Pop&#8217;s gender; if anyone enquires, Pop&#8217;s parents simply say they don&#8217;t disclose this information.
> >
> ...



Interesting idea on how to raise your child.

But ..

"
&#8220;We want Pop to grow up more freely and avoid being forced into a specific gender mould from the outset,&#8221; Pop&#8217;s mother said. &#8220;It's cruel to bring a child into the world with a blue or pink stamp on their forehead.&#8221; 

The child's parents said so long as they keep Pop&#8217;s gender a secret, he or she will be able to avoid preconceived notions of how people should be treated if male or female."

  .. I think they are ignoring that by presenting the child as a neuter, so to speak, they are putting it into a third category in which it may be perceived as a freak and that is also cruel.

I wonder how long they can maintain the secrecy before the child starts to speak and identifies itself as a girl or boy?


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## Anguille (Jun 30, 2009)

PoliticalChic said:


> Luissa said:
> 
> 
> > Plus we can tell you are a conservative because you feel the need to question someone else's parenting skills.
> ...



Did you investigate yet as to whether, heaven forbid, they might be Muslims too?


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## Nik (Jun 30, 2009)

PoliticalChic said:


> Luissa said:
> 
> 
> > Did you ever think maybe Pop is both and there are waiting for he/she to decide what they want to be?
> ...



What does parenting skills have to do with telling people the gender of your child? 

Common sense?  Thats the phrase people use when they feel something but have no rational basis for feeling such.  Just because you act a certain way doesn't mean other people should.


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## Luissa (Jun 30, 2009)

PoliticalChic said:


> Luissa said:
> 
> 
> > Did you ever think maybe Pop is both and there are waiting for he/she to decide what they want to be?
> ...


Really! You are a conservative? I had no idea!
And no, there parenting skills just defer from yours. 
I always think it is funny that conservatives always play the PC card on liberals but when something doesn't fit in the social norm they are the first ones to call it out.


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## Sweet Willy (Jun 30, 2009)

Luissa said:


> Did you ever think maybe Pop is both and there are waiting for he/she to decide what they want to be?
> Plus we can tell you are a conservative because you feel the need to question someone else's parenting skills.




I grew up with a kid in that situation.  The child was allowed to live as a boy and a girl at different times.  They were trying to figure out if the child was more masculine or feminine.  In the end,  it was decided it was a boy.  There was surgery done to make it official.  I think they got it wrong.  He turned out to be the fruitiest gay man you ever saw. 

As far as the parents,  I don't know about their politics. If they molested the child we could say they are more likely conservative.


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## Phoenix (Jun 30, 2009)

politicalchic said:


> > a couple of swedish parents have stirred up debate in the country by refusing to reveal whether their two-and-a-half-year-old child is a boy or a girl.
> >
> > Pop&#8217;s parents [see footnote], both 24, made a decision when their baby was born to keep pop&#8217;s sex a secret. Aside from a select few &#8211; those who have changed the child&#8217;s diaper &#8211; nobody knows pop&#8217;s gender; if anyone enquires, pop&#8217;s parents simply say they don&#8217;t disclose this information.
> >
> > ...


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## Luissa (Jun 30, 2009)

I saw a Dr.90210 where they did the same sort of thing to. The parents made the child become a female but when he could decided he became a man.


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## Luissa (Jun 30, 2009)

Eve said:


> politicalchic said:
> 
> 
> > > a couple of swedish parents have stirred up debate in the country by refusing to reveal whether their two-and-a-half-year-old child is a boy or a girl.
> ...


That looks like my brother's old dog!


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## xotoxi (Jun 30, 2009)

PoliticalChic said:


> Can you take a guess as to whether these parents are liberal or conservative?


 
The fact that they are from Sweden gives you a clue.


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## Phoenix (Jun 30, 2009)

Luissa said:


> That looks like my brother's old dog!



It could be.  I stole that pic off the internet.


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## Anguille (Jun 30, 2009)

PoliticalChic said:


> Isn't it painfully clear that these parents have no parenting skills and no common sense either?



It's not clear at all. No mention is made in the article about how they raise the child overall.

That they do this one, slightly oddball thing does not make them bad parents. 

Who knows, it may benefit the child in the end. They are trying out something new. I really don't see how this could harm the child in any significant way. It's worth the experiment.


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## Luissa (Jun 30, 2009)

xotoxi said:


> PoliticalChic said:
> 
> 
> > Can you take a guess as to whether these parents are liberal or conservative?
> ...



That is what I was thinking!
Of course they are more likely to be liberal and the mom probably got to stay home with the child for at least six months, so the child is probably better off than most children who's parents make them live within a certain gender.


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## Sweet Willy (Jun 30, 2009)

Eve said:


> Luissa said:
> 
> 
> > That looks like my brother's old dog!
> ...




That dog is obviously unhappy with his gender assignment and aims to take matters into his own hands...er....teeth.


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## strollingbones (Jun 30, 2009)

Anguille said:


> PoliticalChic said:
> 
> 
> > > A couple of Swedish parents have stirred up debate in the country by refusing to reveal whether their two-and-a-half-year-old child is a boy or a girl.
> ...



the major road block i see...if its a boy.....boys like to pee outside...dont ask me why...and are much easier to toilet train if allowed to do so


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## Luissa (Jun 30, 2009)

Eve said:


> Luissa said:
> 
> 
> > That looks like my brother's old dog!
> ...


SHe would do something crazy like that! 
Man I miss Marley, she was a sweet dog!


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## Phoenix (Jun 30, 2009)

Sweet Willy said:


> That dog is obviously unhappy with his gender assignment and aims to take matters into his own hands...er....teeth.



Maybe he's just confused. 

Still looks like it's going to be painful though.


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## Phoenix (Jun 30, 2009)

Luissa said:


> SHe would do something crazy like that!
> Man I miss Marley, she was a sweet dog!



Ok - well, then it can't be your brother's dog.

There are some bits that don't belong on a female dog.


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## Sweet Willy (Jun 30, 2009)

strollingbones said:


> Anguille said:
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> > PoliticalChic said:
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I still prefer to pee outside.  Which means that at the age of 39,  I am still not fully toilet trained.


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## Anguille (Jun 30, 2009)

I know of a poster who kept his/her gender a secret on another board. It was very funny what people assumed and even funnier when the gender was revealed and certain people went all out ape shit to discover they'd been wrong.


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## Sweet Willy (Jun 30, 2009)

Anguille said:


> I know of a poster who kept his/her gender a secret on another board. It was very funny what people assumed and even funnier when the gender was revealed and certain people went all out ape shit to discover they'd been wrong.




Must have been liberal moderators to allow such a travesty to occur,  eh?


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## chanel (Jun 30, 2009)

Its not an "odd ball" thing to do Its child abuse. Gender identification is critical to psychological developmentm These parents are playing Frankenstein with their own baby.

How many parents of handicapped children try so hard to make them "normal" and fit in with society. These parents are trying to make this kid a freak. Despicable.


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## Anguille (Jun 30, 2009)

Sweet Willy said:


> Anguille said:
> 
> 
> > I know of a poster who kept his/her gender a secret on another board. It was very funny what people assumed and even funnier when the gender was revealed and certain people went all out ape shit to discover they'd been wrong.
> ...


 

utterly lacking in moderating skills.


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## Luissa (Jun 30, 2009)

Sweet Willy said:


> Anguille said:
> 
> 
> > I know of a poster who kept his/her gender a secret on another board. It was very funny what people assumed and even funnier when the gender was revealed and certain people went all out ape shit to discover they'd been wrong.
> ...


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## Luissa (Jun 30, 2009)

Sweet Willy said:


> Anguille said:
> 
> 
> > I know of a poster who kept his/her gender a secret on another board. It was very funny what people assumed and even funnier when the gender was revealed and certain people went all out ape shit to discover they'd been wrong.
> ...


I couldn't rep you again. That shit is hilarious!


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## Anguille (Jun 30, 2009)

chanel said:


> Gender identification is critical to psychological development


  How so?


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## Sweet Willy (Jun 30, 2009)

chanel said:


> Its not an "odd ball" thing to do Its child abuse. Gender identification is critical to psychological developmentm These parents are playing Frankenstein with their own baby.
> 
> How many parents of handicapped children try so hard to make them "normal" and fit in with society. These parents are trying to make this kid a freak. Despicable.




This child reportedly knows about gender differences.  It's the public that is being kept in the dark.  It just puts a bee in your bonnet that everyone else doesn't get to decide if the kid should sit or stand when pissing.


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## Anguille (Jun 30, 2009)

chanel said:


> How many parents of handicapped children try so hard to make them "normal" and fit in with society. These parents are trying to make this kid a freak. Despicable.


  Forcing children to fit a norm and conform is always good for them? We are all individuals. Vive la différence!


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## Xenophon (Jun 30, 2009)

Good thing Sweden has free health care.

Pop will be quite busy at the analyist for some years to come.

'Cruel to assign a gender...'

Oh, that nasty nature!


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## Luissa (Jun 30, 2009)

chanel said:


> Its not an "odd ball" thing to do Its child abuse. Gender identification is critical to psychological developmentm These parents are playing Frankenstein with their own baby.
> 
> How many parents of handicapped children try so hard to make them "normal" and fit in with society. These parents are trying to make this kid a freak. Despicable.


and the people who try to make their child fit in with "normal" society are any better? Who decides what is normal? And the people who try to make their children fit when they are obviously never going to, it probably a lot more damaging to the child. They will probably always feel like they are less of a person than everyone else because no matter how hard they try, they will never fit in.


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## JBeukema (Jun 30, 2009)

PoliticalChic said:


> > In an interview with newspaper Svenska Dagbladet in March, the parents were quoted saying their decision was rooted in the feminist philosophy that gender is a social construction.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Phoenix (Jun 30, 2009)

JBeukema said:


> so... pop is a Pat?


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## Sweet Willy (Jun 30, 2009)

Xenophon said:


> Good thing Sweden has free health care.
> 
> Pop will be quite busy at the analyist for some years to come.
> 
> ...




I don't see it.  I don't see that the kid doesn't know it's own gender.  Others aren't being told.  Others don't get to tell Pop that he shouldn't cry because "big boys don't cry."  They don't get to tell Pop not to catch toads because "little ladies don't play with toads".


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## JBeukema (Jun 30, 2009)

chanel said:


> Its not an "odd ball" thing to do Its child abuse. Gender identification is critical to psychological developmentm These parents are playing Frankenstein with their own baby.
> 
> How many parents of handicapped children try so hard to make them "normal" and fit in with society. These parents are trying to make this kid a freak. Despicable.




If the child is reared to embrace whatever identity it self-identifies as, and is loved regardless, it will be much better than to force upon the child a gender role the child might not accept.


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## chanel (Jun 30, 2009)

A gender role they may not be willing to accept? Are you fucking kidding? Boys have penises and girls have vaginas. Everyone in the animal kingdom is "willing to accept" that. Exc the freaks.

Yes we are all individuals.But  we live in a society that has norms.Like sexuality. At least I do.


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## Xenophon (Jun 30, 2009)

Sweet Willy said:


> Xenophon said:
> 
> 
> > Good thing Sweden has free health care.
> ...


Sure, who needs 1 million years of behavior norms?

Of course this is much better, they should have thought of it years ago!

Just deny what you are, what a great plan!

Yes, this won't make the kid crazy....


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## Sweet Willy (Jun 30, 2009)

chanel said:


> A gender role they may not be willing to accept? Are you fucking kidding? Boys have penises and girls have vaginas. Everyone in the animal kingdom is "willing to accept" that. Exc the freaks.
> 
> Yes we are all individuals.But  we live in a society that has norms.Like sexuality. At least I do.




Typical conservative, twisted sex obsession with kids.  

A two year old toodler has no use for your sexual ideas.


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## xotoxi (Jun 30, 2009)

chanel said:


> Its not an "odd ball" thing to do Its child abuse.


 
It would be child abuse if they hit the child with a club repeatedly as a punishment for telling friends that he has a "wee wee".

It is not child abuse keeping hair a certain length and dressing a certain way.


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## Sweet Willy (Jun 30, 2009)

Xenophon said:


> Sweet Willy said:
> 
> 
> > Xenophon said:
> ...




Of course "big boys don't cry" is a completely rational gender role that has helped so many young boys become well adjusted men.  

Shrinks make a good living trying to deconstruct such bullshit.


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## Xenophon (Jun 30, 2009)

Sweet Willy said:


> Of course "big boys don't cry" is a completely rational gender role that has helped so many young boys become well adjusted men.
> 
> Shrinks make a good living trying to deconstruct such bullshit.


Small change compared to what they will make off 'pop' if it had to pay.


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## JBeukema (Jun 30, 2009)

chanel said:


> A gender role they may not be willing to accept? Are you fucking kidding? Boys have penises and girls have vaginas. Everyone in the animal kingdom is "willing to accept" that. Exc the freaks.


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## chanel (Jun 30, 2009)

BTW - I have been involved with handicapped children most of my adult life. Great progress has been made as far as acceptance and opportunity for these kids. Shame on those who say that they should embrace their disabilities. 

We can choose our roles but we do not get to choose our gender. Unless we are rich like Chaz Bono and can find a proper surgeon.

Is homosexuality a "choice"?

Wackos.


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## Phoenix (Jun 30, 2009)

Sweet Willy said:


> Typical conservative, twisted sex obsession with kids.
> 
> A two year old toodler has no use for your sexual ideas.



At two years old they already notice the difference between boys and girls/men and women.  They want to know why boys have that thingy and girls have not.  (Of course, they usually giggle because they think that it's funny that girls have not.)  So will the parents tell the child that their gender is based on the equipment they have or what?

If the parents are _strenuously_ trying to keep their child neutral - that could be problematic but if they merely step back and allow their child to develop on his/her own ... well, it might not be what I would choose but it probably won't really screw the kid  up.

We're basically hard-wired anyway.  Give a boy and a girl each a stick.  The boy will immediately pretend it is a gun, poke at something dead with it or create something dead with it.  A girl might dress it up, draw in the dirt with it or even use it to stir up mud pie batter.

Boys seem to come from the womb with a rebel yell and destroying their toys.  Girls are generally quieter and more nurturing.  It's just biology.


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## Nik (Jun 30, 2009)

chanel said:


> A gender role they may not be willing to accept? Are you fucking kidding? Boys have penises and girls have vaginas. Everyone in the animal kingdom is "willing to accept" that. Exc the freaks.
> 
> Yes we are all individuals.But  we live in a society that has norms.Like sexuality. At least I do.



Difference between gender and sex.  Sex is your body parts, gender is how you identify.  No reason that just because one has a vagina one should wear pink, or just because one has a penis one should like trucks.


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## Sweet Willy (Jun 30, 2009)

Eve said:


> Sweet Willy said:
> 
> 
> > Typical conservative, twisted sex obsession with kids.
> ...




I do suspect the child is cross gender, in the physical sense.  

However,  a little boy pretending a stick is a gun is the exact kind of influenced gender role that is absolutely not biological.  First,  the child has to know what a gun is.  They aren't born knowing that.  Secondly,  if we started making movies and comics that depicted little boys making pies and little girls shooting guns,  those roles would reverse.  That is NOT biological.


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## Anguille (Jun 30, 2009)

chanel said:


> BTW - I have been involved with handicapped children most of my adult life. Great progress has been made as far as acceptance and opportunity for these kids. Shame on those who say that they should embrace their disabilities.



What do you mean by "embrace their disabilities"? Why shouldn't so called handicapped kids accept themselves as they are? Where is the shame in being different?


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## Phoenix (Jun 30, 2009)

Sweet Willy said:


> I do suspect the child is cross gender, in the physical sense.



If that is indeed the case, it's more difficult.



> However,  a little boy pretending a stick is a gun is the exact kind of influenced gender role that is absolutely not biological.  First,  the child has to know what a gun is.  They aren't born knowing that.  Secondly,  if we started making movies and comics that depicted little boys making pies and little girls shooting guns,  those roles would reverse.  That is NOT biological.



While I respectfully disagree, I will disagree nonetheless.  

I don't think that the roles would reverse universally.  I do believe that much of our drives are hard-wired into us biologically and would pop up with or without encouragement.


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## Anguille (Jun 30, 2009)

Eve said:


> I don't think that the roles would reverse universally.  I do believe that much of our drives are hard-wired into us biologically and would pop up with or without encouragement.


I agree with both you and Willy. I think some very basic and valid generalizations can be made concerning the psychology of boys versus girls, but that these show really very shallow differences between the two. And that there are more exemptions to the rule than believed. 
I think we like to put things into neat compartments and say girls are like this and boys are like that but in reality it's not so cut and dry.


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## Nik (Jun 30, 2009)

chanel said:


> BTW - I have been involved with handicapped children most of my adult life. Great progress has been made as far as acceptance and opportunity for these kids. Shame on those who say that they should embrace their disabilities.
> 
> We can choose our roles but we do not get to choose our gender. Unless we are rich like Chaz Bono and can find a proper surgeon.
> 
> ...



Actually you do get to choose your gender.  You can dress however you like.


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## Nik (Jun 30, 2009)

Eve said:


> Sweet Willy said:
> 
> 
> > Typical conservative, twisted sex obsession with kids.
> ...



Some of its biology, some of its not.


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## MaggieMae (Jun 30, 2009)

PoliticalChic said:


> > A couple of Swedish parents have stirred up debate in the country by refusing to reveal whether their two-and-a-half-year-old child is a boy or a girl.
> >
> > Pops parents [see footnote], both 24, made a decision when their baby was born to keep Pops sex a secret. Aside from a select few  those who have changed the childs diaper  nobody knows Pops gender; if anyone enquires, Pops parents simply say they dont disclose this information.
> >
> ...



Why on earth would you even CARE? Will it affect your life, personally?

I think the CDC should investigate the emergence of a new disease--an obsession that everything under the sun must have a political bent to it.


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## manifold (Jun 30, 2009)

Holy Crap!

I just saw this and haven't read through the thread yet, but this gem really caught my eye.



> We want Pop to grow up more freely and avoid being forced into a specific gender mould from the outset, Pops mother said. It's cruel to bring a child into the world with a blue or pink stamp on their forehead.





Sure, like sentencing your kid to this fucking hell is less cruel.


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## PoliticalChic (Jun 30, 2009)

Nik said:


> PoliticalChic said:
> 
> 
> > Luissa said:
> ...



You know, now that I think of it, the real value of this thread is as a "Poster-Trap"!

The premise of the parents in the OP is so absurdly rediculous, that the thread merely exposes those members of our community who have no identity or life other than as someone who sits at a keyboard and finds something- anything- to argue about, to disagree with, to comment on.

I don't want to label anyone as such, so let me just make up some names of folks like that, oh, let's say 'Assiul', and, how about 'Kin'...

And these two, Assiul and Kin, have children, and they let them make up their gender, and their academic credentials, and their body piercings,...

Anyone recall the film "A Thousand Clowns,' where the clild is allowed to make up his own name? And for two weeks this little kid is 'Dr. Morris Fishbein'?

Maybe Assiul and Kin know where the other 998 clowns are.


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## GHook93 (Jun 30, 2009)

I can guess whether or not the parents are complete fucking morons with no business in having children? I can guess on whether or not little Pop will have huge issues with gender identification when he/she gets older that will effect her for the rest of his/her life? I can guess on whether or not if these keeps up when little pop starts school, that he/she will quickly become an outcast?

Some people, just because you have male and female genitalia doesn't mean you should have kids!




PoliticalChic said:


> Can you take a guess as to whether these parents are liberal or conservative?


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## Nik (Jun 30, 2009)

manifold said:


> Holy Crap!
> 
> I just saw this and haven't read through the thread yet, but this gem really caught my eye.
> 
> ...



Yes, not being caught in gender norms is so hellish!  Because the more expectations people have for us to act a certain way the better our life is!


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## Nik (Jun 30, 2009)

PoliticalChic said:


> Nik said:
> 
> 
> > PoliticalChic said:
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Umm, they aren't sitting at the keyboard trying to find things to comment on.  That would be you.  They are just living their life with their kid.


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## GHook93 (Jun 30, 2009)

Sweet Willy said:


> As far as the parents,  I don't know about their politics. If they molested the child we could say they are more likely conservative.


That is defamation is the least!  
Much like your views on the middle east you are extremely arrogant!


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## manifold (Jun 30, 2009)

Anguille said:


> I know of a poster who kept his/her gender a secret on another board. It was very funny what people assumed and even funnier when the gender was revealed and certain people went all out ape shit to discover they'd been wrong.



A case study in how most people simply don't pay attention.


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## Anguille (Jun 30, 2009)

manifold said:


> Holy Crap!
> 
> I just saw this and haven't read through the thread yet, but this gem really caught my eye.
> 
> ...



Why has no one complained that they called their kid  "Pop"? 

Think of the nicknames!!

Snap, Crackle., Pop

Soda Pop

Popsicle

Lame, I know. Surely there are worse ones out there?


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## Anguille (Jun 30, 2009)

Poptart!!


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## Nik (Jun 30, 2009)

GHook93 said:


> Sweet Willy said:
> 
> 
> > As far as the parents,  I don't know about their politics. If they molested the child we could say they are more likely conservative.
> ...



If your going to make shit up about other people, deal with it if they are going to make shit up about you.

The hardest thing this kid is gonna have to go through is dealing with assholes like you who think they are a freak because they are adrogenous.


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## MaggieMae (Jun 30, 2009)

chanel said:


> Its not an "odd ball" thing to do Its child abuse. Gender identification is critical to psychological developmentm These parents are playing Frankenstein with their own baby.
> 
> How many parents of handicapped children try so hard to make them "normal" and fit in with society. These parents are trying to make this kid a freak. Despicable.



I'd have to go back and re-read the clips, but for all we know the couple may just want to provide the child with unisex toys or other mundane asexual environments. When boys are automatically given macho stuff to play with, they'll grow up to have hair on their chest is the hope. I guess. If girls are given dollies, they'll grow up to have big boobs. I guess. Funny how that backfires sometimes.


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## Nik (Jun 30, 2009)

Anguille said:


> manifold said:
> 
> 
> > Holy Crap!
> ...



They speak Swedish...


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## Anguille (Jun 30, 2009)

PoliticalChic said:


> The premise of the parents in the OP is so absurdly rediculous, that the thread merely exposes those members of our community who have no identity or life other than as someone who sits at a keyboard and finds something- anything- to argue about, to disagree with, to comment on.


  - or use to start a thread.


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## Anguille (Jun 30, 2009)

Nik said:


> Anguille said:
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> > manifold said:
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Ja, tack so mycket.


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## PoliticalChic (Jun 30, 2009)

Nik said:


> PoliticalChic said:
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> > Nik said:
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Well, ummmm, so, ummmm, how about it, ummmm, where are the other 998? Fess up.


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## manifold (Jun 30, 2009)

Nik said:


> manifold said:
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> > Holy Crap!
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I'd wager that this kid getting *it's* ass beat several times a day will render any alleged benefits completely insignificant.  The parents are being extremely selfish IMO.


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## JBeukema (Jun 30, 2009)

I wonder if the kid was named after the sound they heard the night it was conceived....


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## Anguille (Jun 30, 2009)

manifold said:


> Nik said:
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> > manifold said:
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I wager he/she will not. You remind me of a friend who insists that gays should not be allowed to be parents because the kids will be teased for having two mommies. I say you and he are living in the past. The kids of today and tomorrow don't have the same hang ups as previous generations.


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## Nik (Jun 30, 2009)

manifold said:


> Nik said:
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> > manifold said:
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The kid will be growing up in Sweden, not the American south.  People are a wee bit more civilized there.


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## MaggieMae (Jun 30, 2009)

Sweet Willy said:


> Xenophon said:
> 
> 
> > Good thing Sweden has free health care.
> ...



I played with toads and didn't believe in fairy tales. I should have though, because I would have tried kissing one and got a prince instead of...just a toad.


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## manifold (Jun 30, 2009)

Anguille said:


> manifold said:
> 
> 
> > Nik said:
> ...



I respectfully disagree.  I think you are living in a fantasyland.  When it comes to kids, they are just as cruel today as they've always been.  The only difference is now they have myspace and facebook at their disposal to inflict their cruelty.  If this kid's classmates get wind of this, *it's* going to get teased mercilessly.  Guaranteed.


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## manifold (Jun 30, 2009)

Nik said:


> The kid will be growing up in Sweden, not the American south.  *People are a wee bit more civilized there*.



And your evidence?


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## Gunny (Jun 30, 2009)

PoliticalChic said:


> > A couple of Swedish parents have stirred up debate in the country by refusing to reveal whether their two-and-a-half-year-old child is a boy or a girl.
> >
> > Pops parents [see footnote], both 24, made a decision when their baby was born to keep Pops sex a secret. Aside from a select few  those who have changed the childs diaper  nobody knows Pops gender; if anyone enquires, Pops parents simply say they dont disclose this information.
> >
> ...



Yeah, they're stupid.  What a bunch of nonsense.


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## Nik (Jun 30, 2009)

manifold said:


> Nik said:
> 
> 
> > The kid will be growing up in Sweden, not the American south.  *People are a wee bit more civilized there*.
> ...



Is there a Swedish Poverty Law Center?


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## Nik (Jun 30, 2009)

manifold said:


> Anguille said:
> 
> 
> > manifold said:
> ...



Kids are, of course, just as cruel as they've always been.  But as kids get exposed to more and more things they find less and less things weird and freakish.  Anguille is factually correct about kids of gay parents.  It was much, much worse 20 years ago than it is now.


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## Anguille (Jun 30, 2009)

manifold said:


> Nik said:
> 
> 
> > The kid will be growing up in Sweden, not the American south.  *People are a wee bit more civilized there*.
> ...


Me. Swedish-American and much more civilized than you.


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## manifold (Jun 30, 2009)

Nik said:


> manifold said:
> 
> 
> > Nik said:
> ...



Is that any sort of evidence?  No.

Fail.


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## manifold (Jun 30, 2009)

Nik said:


> Kids are, of course, just as cruel as they've always been.  But as kids get exposed to more and more things they find less and less things weird and freakish.  Anguille is factually correct about kids of gay parents. * It was much, much worse 20 years ago than it is now*.



And your evidence?


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## manifold (Jun 30, 2009)

Anguille said:


> Me. Swedish-American and much more civilized than you.



And _your_ evidence?


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## Anguille (Jun 30, 2009)

manifold said:


> Anguille said:
> 
> 
> > manifold said:
> ...


Not if it's a popular kid like you. Besides you can't protect kids from all teasing. It's part of growing up.


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## MaggieMae (Jun 30, 2009)

PoliticalChic said:


> Nik said:
> 
> 
> > PoliticalChic said:
> ...



And yet you felt you needed to post it anyway, and invite comments by smugly suggesting that the couple are "liberal."


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## Anguille (Jun 30, 2009)

manifold said:


> Anguille said:
> 
> 
> > Me. Swedish-American and much more civilized than you.
> ...


Just ask Phorminx.


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## manifold (Jun 30, 2009)

Anguille said:


> Besides you can't protect kids from all teasing. It's part of growing up.



All the more reason to not be manufacturing new reasons for your kid to be teased.


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## Epsilon Delta (Jun 30, 2009)

Haha, those crazy Swedes. Always doing crazy things. Anybody remember that Swedish couple that fought a legal battle to name their girl "Metallica"? Now that is cool. 

Anyway, "Liberal or Conservative"? They're Swedes! Please. What do you think?


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## Nik (Jun 30, 2009)

manifold said:


> Nik said:
> 
> 
> > Kids are, of course, just as cruel as they've always been.  But as kids get exposed to more and more things they find less and less things weird and freakish.  Anguille is factually correct about kids of gay parents. * It was much, much worse 20 years ago than it is now*.
> ...



I lived it.


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## del (Jun 30, 2009)

Nik said:


> manifold said:
> 
> 
> > Nik said:
> ...



oh, well, that seals the deal.


you're killing me.


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## Anguille (Jun 30, 2009)

manifold said:


> Anguille said:
> 
> 
> > Besides you can't protect kids from all teasing. It's part of growing up.
> ...


Well good thing we don't have kids together because I think you are being Chicken Little about this. I think the risk of harm to the kid is minimal and it might actually do it some good in that it won't pick up gender expectations from others. 

In any case, this will only last for a few years or so. The kid is going to identify itself as a boy or a girl not long after it begins to speak. This is not an experiment that can be expected to last past the age when it starts going to school.


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## Zoom-boing (Jun 30, 2009)

The kid is what, two?  In a few years Pop will be in school and will refer to him/her self as either a boy or girl.  And certainly when he/she plays 'doctor' at some point.  The situation will resolve itself.  Like it or not, Pop is likely either a boy or girl, he/she knows what it is and the world will know at some point.  Whether or not the world cares, that's another matter.

Those Swedes, crazy, crazy.  Except for the fish, they're pretty good.


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## manifold (Jun 30, 2009)

Nik said:


> manifold said:
> 
> 
> > Nik said:
> ...



You lived two separate childhoods in two different generations?  Wow, that's a pretty neat trick.


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## Phoenix (Jun 30, 2009)

Anguille said:


> Well good thing we don't have kids together because I think you are being Chicken Little about this. I think the risk of harm to the kid is minimal and it might actually do it some good in that it won't pick up gender expectations from others.
> 
> In any case, this will only last for a few years or so. *The kid is going to identify itself as a boy or a girl not long after it begins to speak. *This is not an experiment that can be expected to last past the age when it starts going to school.



The kid is two.  Shouldn't he or she already be speaking rather well at this point?


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## manifold (Jun 30, 2009)

Anguille said:


> manifold said:
> 
> 
> > Anguille said:
> ...



I hope you're right, for the kid's sake.

I still say the parents are being selfish.


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## Zoom-boing (Jun 30, 2009)

Eve said:


> Anguille said:
> 
> 
> > Well good thing we don't have kids together because I think you are being Chicken Little about this. I think the risk of harm to the kid is minimal and it might actually do it some good in that it won't pick up gender expectations from others.
> ...



Robin Williams didn't talk till he was three.  And look how he turned out!    They're all different.


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## Nik (Jun 30, 2009)

del said:


> Nik said:
> 
> 
> > manifold said:
> ...



Well theres some more good news.


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## Nik (Jun 30, 2009)

manifold said:


> Nik said:
> 
> 
> > manifold said:
> ...



Thanks.  People who grow up in those situations usually have a pretty strong interest in the next generation, which I do.  Its a LOT easier now.


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## Anguille (Jun 30, 2009)

Eve said:


> Anguille said:
> 
> 
> > Well good thing we don't have kids together because I think you are being Chicken Little about this. I think the risk of harm to the kid is minimal and it might actually do it some good in that it won't pick up gender expectations from others.
> ...


 I guess I didn't read carefully. I thought it was younger. In any case the experiment can't last much longer. Unless the kid decides it want to continue keeping the secret, which doesn't seem likely.


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## Phoenix (Jun 30, 2009)

Zoom-boing said:


> Robin Williams didn't talk till he was three.  And look how he turned out!    They're all different.



Really?  I did not know that.  Have to look that up later.

Sweet!  That's my new thing to learn for today.  I'm done.


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## Anguille (Jun 30, 2009)

Nik said:


> manifold said:
> 
> 
> > Nik said:
> ...


I didn't grow up in that situation but I have friends who did and I agree the younger generations are more accepting.


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## Phoenix (Jun 30, 2009)

Anguille said:


> I guess I didn't read carefully. I thought it was younger. In any case the experiment can't last much longer. Unless the kid decides it want to continue keeping the secret, which doesn't seem likely.




Yep.


Odd referring to a child as "it" though, isn't it?


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## manifold (Jun 30, 2009)

Eve said:


> Zoom-boing said:
> 
> 
> > Robin Williams didn't talk till he was three.  And look how he turned out!    They're all different.
> ...




Thomas Edison didn't start talking until he was four.


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## manifold (Jun 30, 2009)

Nik said:


> manifold said:
> 
> 
> > Nik said:
> ...



I can think a few people in the news that would disagree.  But by all means, take your one anecdotal data point and run with it.  It's not like you risk losing credibility or anything.


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## xotoxi (Jun 30, 2009)

manifold said:


> Anguille said:
> 
> 
> > Besides you can't protect kids from all teasing. It's part of growing up.
> ...


 
Manifold...maybe you can share with us about your experience of growing up with both a penis and a vagina.


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## Nik (Jun 30, 2009)

Eve said:


> Anguille said:
> 
> 
> > I guess I didn't read carefully. I thought it was younger. In any case the experiment can't last much longer. Unless the kid decides it want to continue keeping the secret, which doesn't seem likely.
> ...



Its a bug in the English language.  We need a gender neutral descriptor.  Can use "they", but technically thats plural.  S/he works as well, although its clunky, I think thats what one is supposed to use.


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## Nik (Jun 30, 2009)

manifold said:


> Nik said:
> 
> 
> > manifold said:
> ...



Its not just one anecdotal data point.  However, disregarding that, anecdotes are pretty much the best you can do since there weren't studies done on it.


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## Zoom-boing (Jun 30, 2009)

Eve said:


> Zoom-boing said:
> 
> 
> > Robin Williams didn't talk till he was three.  And look how he turned out!    They're all different.
> ...



My brain is full of completely useless information.  I've tried throwing it out but it just hangs around.  Once in awhile I get to use it.  Stop, I know what you're thinking -- no, not my brain, the information.  

Don't know where I heard that about Williams.  I never checked it out just remembered hearing it.  Watch, it'll turn out to be wrong.


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## del (Jun 30, 2009)

Nik said:


> Eve said:
> 
> 
> > Anguille said:
> ...



one is what one is supposed to use when one is trying to be gender neutral.

what a surprise one finds it that you don't know that. too.


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## Zoom-boing (Jun 30, 2009)

Eve said:


> Anguille said:
> 
> 
> > I guess I didn't read carefully. I thought it was younger. In any case the experiment can't last much longer. Unless the kid decides it want to continue keeping the secret, which doesn't seem likely.
> ...



People call unborn babies 'it' all the time.  I don't, I refer to them as 'he' because they're not an 'it'.  Pop isn't an it either.  I think the whole thing is ridiculous.  Pop is either male or female and should be referred to as such because Pop is either male or female.


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## Nik (Jun 30, 2009)

del said:


> Nik said:
> 
> 
> > Eve said:
> ...



Incorrect.  One is a vague nonspecific term.  You don't say "one" if you are referring to a particular person.  

You wouldn't say, for example, that "one is born in Sweden and ones parents are referring to one as gender neutral".  Thats asinine.


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## Anguille (Jun 30, 2009)

Zoom-boing said:


> Eve said:
> 
> 
> > Anguille said:
> ...


I wonder if they named it Pop instead of Mom to give us a clue.

Cousin It never minded being called an it. Why should a fetus?


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## Anguille (Jun 30, 2009)

Nik said:


> .  Thats asinine.


One would be inclined to agree. 

no offense anybody.


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## Zoom-boing (Jun 30, 2009)

Anguille said:


> Zoom-boing said:
> 
> 
> > Eve said:
> ...



Cousin It had a choice.


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## Sweet Willy (Jun 30, 2009)

GHook93 said:


> Sweet Willy said:
> 
> 
> > As far as the parents,  I don't know about their politics. If they molested the child we could say they are more likely conservative.
> ...




Data regarding the political affiliation of child molesters shows conservatives to have a higher incidence of child molestation.


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## PoliticalChic (Jun 30, 2009)

Sweet Willy said:


> GHook93 said:
> 
> 
> > Sweet Willy said:
> ...



BTW, was the study done by a liberal, oh, maybe university?

And how about a trip down memory lane: Mel Reynolds and the underage volunteer:

 Prison time?  Mel Reynolds serving five years for sleeping with an underage campaign volunteer.  This is a first in American politics: An ex-congressman who had sex with a subordinate won clemency from a president who had sex with a subordinate, then was hired by a clergyman [Jesse Jackson] who had sex with a subordinate. His new job? Youth counselor.  Mr. Reynolds was never disavowed by his fellow Democrats - instead he was embraced for a great speech on the house floor (where he admitted to the lewd acts) and received three standing ovations. While on the other side of the aisle was no defending of Mr. Foley and instant, overwhelming disdain.
Liberal Hypocrisy ~ The truth shall set YOU free, and have US laughing out loud! LOL!


"In one tape, Reynolds asks Heard to describe sex with her lesbian lover, then asks if he can join Heard in bed with "Theresa," a fictitious 15-year-old Catholic-school girl, whom Heard invented apparently to tempt Reynolds. At one point he begs her to provide lewd photos of the girl. "Jesus," Reynolds says on the tapes, "a Catholic. [...] Did I win the Lotto?" 
Mel Reynolds


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## Political Junky (Jun 30, 2009)

PoliticalChic said:


> > A couple of Swedish parents have stirred up debate in the country by refusing to reveal whether their two-and-a-half-year-old child is a boy or a girl.
> >
> > Pops parents [see footnote], both 24, made a decision when their baby was born to keep Pops sex a secret. Aside from a select few  those who have changed the childs diaper  nobody knows Pops gender; if anyone enquires, Pops parents simply say they dont disclose this information.
> >
> ...


I'm wondering why you feel the need to sit in judgement.


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## Political Junky (Jun 30, 2009)

chanel said:


> BTW - I have been involved with handicapped children most of my adult life. Great progress has been made as far as acceptance and opportunity for these kids. Shame on those who say that they should embrace their disabilities.
> 
> We can choose our roles but we do not get to choose our gender. Unless we are rich like Chaz Bono and can find a proper surgeon.
> 
> ...


In Sweden one doesn't have to worry about the ability to pay for medical treatment .. neither Pop nor Chaz.


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## PoliticalChic (Jun 30, 2009)

Political Junky said:


> PoliticalChic said:
> 
> 
> > Can you take a guess as to whether these parents are liberal or conservative?
> ...



It's not judgement, it's humor.  One must laugh when you see 1970's feminism played out in real life.


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## Sweet Willy (Jun 30, 2009)

PoliticalChic said:


> Sweet Willy said:
> 
> 
> > GHook93 said:
> ...




I am not aware of any formal study,  only police and court records.  Arrest and convictions for child molestation,  among known political candidates and officers is heavily skewed towards conservatives.  There are several compilations of known conservative and liberal child molesters available.  The numbers among conservatives only seem to show that a child molester,  active in politics,  is more likely to be a conservative.


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## JBeukema (Jun 30, 2009)

Nik said:


> Eve said:
> 
> 
> > Anguille said:
> ...



ze..


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## manifold (Jun 30, 2009)

Sweet Willy said:


> GHook93 said:
> 
> 
> > Sweet Willy said:
> ...



That bullshit smells familiar.

You got a link to this steaming pile of _*data*_?


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## Nik (Jun 30, 2009)

JBeukema said:


> Nik said:
> 
> 
> > Eve said:
> ...



Are you just making that up, or is that an actual term?


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## JBeukema (Jun 30, 2009)

Nik said:


> JBeukema said:
> 
> 
> > Nik said:
> ...




It's the politically correct gender-neutral pronoun that was thrown around in Az. I don't know how widely it's used outside of that state.


....



I usually just said 'it'


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## JBeukema (Jun 30, 2009)

Gender-neutral pronoun - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



> Nominative (subject) Objective (object) Possessive determiner Possessive pronoun Reflexive   Traditional pronouns   He _He_ laughed I called _him_ _His_ eyes gleam That is _his_ He likes _himself_ She _She_ laughed I called _her_ _Her_ eyes gleam That is _hers_ She likes _herself_ It _It_ laughed I called _it_ _Its_ eyes gleam That is _its_ It likes _itself_ One _One_ laughed I called _one_ _One's_ eyes gleam That is _one's_ One likes _oneself_   Conventions based on traditional pronouns   S/he _S/he_ laughed I called _him/her_ _His/her_ eyes gleam That is _his/hers_ S/he likes _him/herself_   S/he (compact) _S/he_ laughed I called _him/r_ _His/r_ eyes gleam That is _his/rs_ S/he likes _him/rself_ Singular _they_ _They_ laughed I called _them_ _Their_ eyes gleam That is _theirs_ They like _themselves_   Invented pronouns   Co _Co_ laughed I called _co_ _Cos_ eyes gleam That is _cos_ Co likes _coself_   Ne (pronounced like "me") _Ne_ laughed I called _nir_ _Nir_ eyes gleam That is _nirs_ Ne likes _nyself_ Spivak (old) _E_ laughed I called _em_ _Eir_ eyes gleam That is _eirs_ E likes _eirself_ Spivak (new) _Ey_ laughed I called _em_ _Eir_ eyes gleam That is _eirs_ Ey likes _emself_ Hy _Hy_ laughed I called _hym_ _Hys_ eyes gleam That is _hys_ Hy likes _hymself_   Thon[4] _Thon_ laughed I called _thon_ _Thons_ eyes gleam That is _thon's_ Thon likes _thonself_   Ve[5] _Ve_ laughed I called _ver_ _Vis_ eyes gleam That is _vis_ Ve likes _verself_ Xe[6] _Xe_ laughed I called _xem_ _Xyr_ eyes gleam That is _xyrs_ Xe likes _xemself_   Ze (or zie or sie) and hir[7] _Ze_ laughed I called _hir_ _Hir_ eyes gleam That is _hirs_ Ze likes _hirself_   Ze and mer[8] _Ze_ laughed I called _mer_ _Zer_ eyes gleam That is _zer_ Ze likes _zemself_   Ze, zam, zerz[9] _Ze_ laughed I called _zam_ _Zerz_ eyes gleam That is _zerz_ Ze likes _zamself_


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## manifold (Jun 30, 2009)




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## JBeukema (Jun 30, 2009)

> *Middle English*
> 
> Historically, there were two gender neutral pronouns native to English dialects, 'ou' and 'a', but they have long since died out. According to Dennis Baron's _Grammar and Gender_:
> In 1789, William H. Marshall records the existence of a dialectal English epicene pronoun, singular "ou": "'Ou will' expresses either _he_ will, _she_ will, or _it_ will." Marshall traces "ou" to Middle English epicene "a", used by the 14th century English writer John of Trevisa, and both the OED and Wright's _English Dialect Dictionary_ confirm the use of "a" for _he_, _she_, _it_, _they_, and even _I_. This "a" is a reduced form of the Anglo-Saxon _he_ = "he" and _heo_ = "she".[13]​ Baron goes on to describe how relics of these sex-neutral terms survive in some British dialects of Modern English, and sometimes a pronoun of one gender might be applied to a person or animal of the opposite gender.


.


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## del (Jun 30, 2009)

manifold said:


>



no shit


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## MaggieMae (Jul 1, 2009)

Zoom-boing said:


> Eve said:
> 
> 
> > Zoom-boing said:
> ...



My brother didn't talk in any cohesive manner until he was four. He called me "Mimi" and my sister "DoDo." Not even close, so go figure what was in his undeveloped mind. But he now holds 3 degrees, one in engineering, an MBA, and some kind of difficult engineering certification only endowed to the best of the best. He always excelled in mathematics, however, not English or the arts so it's probably a hard-wired thing from birth.


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## Phoenix (Jul 1, 2009)

Ok - I decided not to wade back through the pages to find the original bit about Robin Williams.

I couldn't find anything that specifically said he didn't learn to talk until whatever age, but one article did state that he was a quiet child.

And then I found the following couple paragraphs, which hit me oddly - not sure if it will anyone else, but here goes:



> *Robin Williams is believed to have ADHD*. People with ADHD can be more imaginative or intellectual than other people.1 *These tendencies can lead to creativity, which can be seen in Williams' works.* In adults, ADHD is often seen as a positive trait, lending itself to creative and outgoing personalities.2
> 
> Fast Facts:
> 
> ...


 Source



> Cindy Little, managing editor of Gifted Child Today and a PhD candidate at Baylor University in Waco, Texas, agrees. Little, a teacher who has more than 10 years experience in primary level classrooms, notes that schools "want to serve gifted children, but they don't know how to do it. A lot of kids aren't being identified."
> 
> "Imagine being Robin Williams' fourth grade teacher!" she exclaims.
> 
> ...


 Source



So, the first article says that Robin MAY have ADD (not that he in fact DOES have it).  _But_ here's how he used it to make his career successful.  

And while I will admit that he has developed into a gifted comedian over the years, was he automatically a gifted child simply because of who he became as an adult?  Because he was a smart-ass as a kid, he's automatically labeled "gifted"?


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## dilloduck (Jul 1, 2009)

Eve said:


> Ok - I decided not to wade back through the pages to find the original bit about Robin Williams.
> 
> I couldn't find anything that specifically said he didn't learn to talk until whatever age, but one article did state that he was a quiet child.
> 
> ...



I prefer to call em touched in the head.


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## PoliticalChic (Jul 1, 2009)

Sweet Willy said:


> PoliticalChic said:
> 
> 
> > Sweet Willy said:
> ...



So, what are you driving at, that liberals are only thieves and liars?


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## Anguille (Jul 1, 2009)

Eve said:


> Ok - I decided not to wade back through the pages to find the original bit about Robin Williams.
> 
> I couldn't find anything that specifically said he didn't learn to talk until whatever age, but one article did state that he was a quiet child.
> 
> ...



Thanks, Eve. That was interesting. Especially "
Similar concerns haunt Coleman, who emphasizes the ways gifted children can compensate for disabilities - and mask them- on their own.

Or, these student may not be aware the deficits exist."

As for Robin Williams, I've never found him particularly entertaining. He annoys me mostly, so maybe he does have ADHD?


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## Sweet Willy (Jul 1, 2009)

PoliticalChic said:


> Sweet Willy said:
> 
> 
> > PoliticalChic said:
> ...




I wasn't really driving at anything except your initial querry about the parents politics.  If you would like to use parenting behavior as a means to identify the politics of the parents,  I don't see why you would object.  You present a child whose parents present the child as nuetral,  in a sexual sense,  and assert the parents must be liberal.  Standing to strengthen your argument is the other extreme.  Parents who use their children as objects of sex must be conservative.

Your argument has merit and is supported by the behavior of conservative parents.  Congratulations.


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## Gudrid (Jul 31, 2009)

PoliticalChic said:


> It's not judgement, it's humor.  One must laugh when you see 1970's feminism played out in real life.



Why? 


This was my favorite bit:



> the parents were quoted saying their decision was rooted in the feminist philosophy that gender is a social construction.



I'm fairly certain that gender is not a social construction.   Seems to be all about physical construction from what I've seen.


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## AllieBaba (Jul 31, 2009)

Fucking Swedes. Don't they already have  the highest suicide rate of any nation?

Way to look out for the kid's interests. Confuse him right from the beginning. Yay.


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## Emma (Jul 31, 2009)

PoliticalChic said:


> Luissa said:
> 
> 
> > Did you ever think maybe Pop is both and there are waiting for he/she to decide what they want to be?
> ...


No, but it IS plain to see it's not any of your business (or anyone's for that matter).


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## Emma (Jul 31, 2009)

Eve said:


> Boys seem to come from the womb with a rebel yell and destroying their toys.  Girls are generally quieter and more nurturing.  It's just biology.





I wish someone had informed my daughters of that LOL


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## Phoenix (Jul 31, 2009)

Emma said:


> I wish someone had informed my daughters of that LOL




There are exceptions to every general rule.


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## KittenKoder (Jul 31, 2009)

Eve said:


> Emma said:
> 
> 
> > I wish someone had informed my daughters of that LOL
> ...



Actually, generally boys and girls have no biological drive until they reach puberty. Personalities are influenced primarily by their environment ... unless you also agree that homosexuality and transexualism are both genetic.


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