# Next time you want a dog



## Luddly Neddite

This is only the tip of the iceberg of the issue of over breeding. There are many more examples - pit bulls, retrievers, King Charles spaniels but here are a few. 

It used to be that cats were strong and healthy because they were not bred for deformities like dogs are. Not anymore. I have rescued two Maine coon cats. My first died at age 4 of a congenital heart defect that is common in that breed. 

IMO, we should stop breeding "pure breeds". It almost never "improves the breed" and "registered AKC" is basically nothing more than having the dog's name, and yours, written in a book. 

Adopt from a shelter. And if you think you want a "pure breed", check for breed rescues and check at your local shelter. fully 25% of all animals taken to shelters are pure breeds and more than 80% are younger than 3 years old. IOW, we're killing young healthy animals because more are born than there are homes for. Adopting from a shelter makes you part of the answer instead of part of the cause of the inexcusable tragedy of dog and cat overpopulation.


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## Jimmy_Chitwood

Luddly Neddite said:


> This is only the tip of the iceberg of the issue of over breeding. There are many more examples - pit bulls, retrievers, King Charles spaniels but here are a few.
> 
> It used to be that cats were strong and healthy because they were not bred for deformities like dogs are. Not anymore. I have rescued two Maine coon cats. My first died at age 4 of a congenital heart defect that is common in that breed.
> 
> IMO, we should stop breeding "pure breeds". It almost never "improves the breed" and "registered AKC" is basically nothing more than having the dog's name, and yours, written in a book.
> 
> Adopt from a shelter. And if you think you want a "pure breed", check for breed rescues and check at your local shelter. fully 25% of all animals taken to shelters are pure breeds and more than 80% are younger than 3 years old. IOW, we're killing young healthy animals because more are born than there are homes for. Adopting from a shelter makes you part of the answer instead of part of the cause of the inexcusable tragedy of dog and cat overpopulation.



In my experience mutts are healthier, more intelligent, have a better disposition, and live longer.


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## Pogo

Luddly Neddite said:


> This is only the tip of the iceberg of the issue of over breeding. There are many more examples - pit bulls, retrievers, King Charles spaniels but here are a few.
> 
> It used to be that cats were strong and healthy because they were not bred for deformities like dogs are. Not anymore. I have rescued two Maine coon cats. My first died at age 4 of a congenital heart defect that is common in that breed.
> 
> IMO, we should stop breeding "pure breeds". It almost never "improves the breed" and "registered AKC" is basically nothing more than having the dog's name, and yours, written in a book.
> 
> Adopt from a shelter. And if you think you want a "pure breed", check for breed rescues and check at your local shelter. fully 25% of all animals taken to shelters are pure breeds and more than 80% are younger than 3 years old. IOW, we're killing young healthy animals because more are born than there are homes for. Adopting from a shelter makes you part of the answer instead of part of the cause of the inexcusable tragedy of dog and cat overpopulation.



  Hear hear.

We have a very good (no kill) shelter in town, for which I volunteer and have used their services to clean up and place (1) a little scared Daisy Dinmont Terrier that I found abandoned on the Natchez Trace Parkway (drove her all the way here, 700 miles), (2) a homeless cat that my sister was feeding and then wondering why it was hanging around, (3) another cat that I witnessed in the act of _being _abandoned right in front of my house (which immediately came to me),

.... and (4) this past February I found a tiny little chihuahua wandering on the highway freezing to death.  I took him to the shelter, they took his picture and put it on their website and by the time I got home I already had a call on my phone from the owner who saw their notice.  He was a long way from home but he got to his warm home that same night.

Needless to say when I wanted a cat I went to the same shelter.  He's four years old now.

I had a Maine Coon many years ago but couldn't keep her.  I called her "Suzy Homewrecker".  She would be lurking in a corner waiting to pounce on me when I came in the door.


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## K9Buck

The AKC and the show rings have done catastrophic damage to dogs.


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## Pogo

K9Buck said:


> The AKC and the show rings have done catastrophic damage to dogs.



Human hubris, fucking up Nature as usual.


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## strollingbones

i love dobermans.....i have had 3...all had spinal issues as they aged...i have rescues now...i do however think the latest one is purebreed....


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## strollingbones

if dogs were allowed to breed without human intervention....you would have a medium sized brown dog with a curled tail....


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## Pogo

Pogo said:


> Luddly Neddite said:
> 
> 
> 
> This is only the tip of the iceberg of the issue of over breeding. There are many more examples - pit bulls, retrievers, King Charles spaniels but here are a few.
> 
> It used to be that cats were strong and healthy because they were not bred for deformities like dogs are. Not anymore. I have rescued two Maine coon cats. My first died at age 4 of a congenital heart defect that is common in that breed.
> 
> IMO, we should stop breeding "pure breeds". It almost never "improves the breed" and "registered AKC" is basically nothing more than having the dog's name, and yours, written in a book.
> 
> Adopt from a shelter. And if you think you want a "pure breed", check for breed rescues and check at your local shelter. fully 25% of all animals taken to shelters are pure breeds and more than 80% are younger than 3 years old. IOW, we're killing young healthy animals because more are born than there are homes for. Adopting from a shelter makes you part of the answer instead of part of the cause of the inexcusable tragedy of dog and cat overpopulation.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hear hear.
> 
> We have a very good (no kill) shelter in town, for which I volunteer and have used their services to clean up and place (1) a little scared Daisy Dinmont Terrier that I found abandoned on the Natchez Trace Parkway (drove her all the way here, 700 miles), (2) a homeless cat that my sister was feeding and then wondering why it was hanging around, (3) another cat that I witnessed in the act of _being _abandoned right in front of my house (which immediately came to me),
> 
> .... and (4) this past February I found a tiny little chihuahua wandering on the highway freezing to death.  I took him to the shelter, they took his picture and put it on their website and by the time I got home I already had a call on my phone from the owner who saw their notice.  He was a long way from home but he got to his warm home that same night.
> 
> Needless to say when I wanted a cat I went to the same shelter.  He's four years old now.
> 
> I had a Maine Coon many years ago but couldn't keep her.  I called her "Suzy Homewrecker".  She would be lurking in a corner waiting to pounce on me when I came in the door.
Click to expand...


The lady who founded our shelter did so after she had a stray hanging around and asked the town what to do.  The Sheriff told her "we'll send somebody around to shoot him".  Not satisfied with that mentality she founded the shelter.  I believe she just passed away last year at the age of 100.


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## rightwinger

Luddly Neddite said:


> This is only the tip of the iceberg of the issue of over breeding. There are many more examples - pit bulls, retrievers, King Charles spaniels but here are a few.
> 
> It used to be that cats were strong and healthy because they were not bred for deformities like dogs are. Not anymore. I have rescued two Maine coon cats. My first died at age 4 of a congenital heart defect that is common in that breed.
> 
> IMO, we should stop breeding "pure breeds". It almost never "improves the breed" and "registered AKC" is basically nothing more than having the dog's name, and yours, written in a book.
> 
> Adopt from a shelter. And if you think you want a "pure breed", check for breed rescues and check at your local shelter. fully 25% of all animals taken to shelters are pure breeds and more than 80% are younger than 3 years old. IOW, we're killing young healthy animals because more are born than there are homes for. Adopting from a shelter makes you part of the answer instead of part of the cause of the inexcusable tragedy of dog and cat overpopulation.



Sad really

Many of these breeds are bred to be nothing more than circus freaks
It was like if you were breeding humans and you chose a hunchbacked dwarf as your basis

The show ring is the worst thing for a dog. Dogs are smart, obedient and athletic. Breeding for show improves none of that


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## Compost

There are many breeds developed over many many years were used for specific jobs- herders, drovers, flock guardians, estate guardians, gun dogs, retrievers, flushers, companions, therapy dogs, police dogs  etc.  To suggest that breeding ought to be discontinued because there are some unscrupulous breeders makes no sense.  Should Leader Dogs for the Blind stop raising Labs because there are some backyard breeders who do a crummy job of raising Labs?   

Yes.  Rescuing a dog is a beautiful thing to do.  So do it.  Don't demand that purebred dogs be wiped off the planet.  I won't apologize to you for BUYING  a purebred dog from a line of successful flock guardians for my farm.  None of my assorted gang of dogs was up to the job so I went for a specialist.


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## strollingbones

i would drop the cash into a doberman puppy.....i just cant do the training and refuse to have a half assed trained dog....i am too old to fight the puppy in them for a year or so....

i swear this new one,,,ernest t...is suppose to be a mix....jack russel and satan?


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## Luddly Neddite

strollingbones said:


> if dogs were allowed to breed without human intervention....you would have a medium sized brown dog with a curled tail....




Yep. What I call The Res Dog. I've volunteered on several Indian reservations and found the dogs to be tough, healthy, very easy to get along with - just excellent dogs. And, for the most part, they looked very much alike. Once in a while, I'd come across a med size, medium brown dog with short legs!


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## Luddly Neddite

strollingbones said:


> i would drop the cash into a doberman puppy.....i just cant do the training and refuse to have a half assed trained dog....i am too old to fight the puppy in them for a year or so....
> 
> i swear this new one,,,ernest t...is suppose to be a mix....jack russel and satan?




Jack Russel's are such high energy pooches. I'd hate to have to keep up with them!

From what I know, they're also really intelligent. That means they're into a lot of trouble.


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## Luddly Neddite

Compost said:


> There are many breeds developed over many many years were used for specific jobs- herders, drovers, flock guardians, estate guardians, gun dogs, retrievers, flushers, companions, therapy dogs, police dogs  etc.  To suggest that breeding ought to be discontinued because there are some unscrupulous breeders makes no sense.  Should Leader Dogs for the Blind stop raising Labs because there are some backyard breeders who do a crummy job of raising Labs?
> 
> Yes.  Rescuing a dog is a beautiful thing to do.  So do it.  Don't demand that purebred dogs be wiped off the planet.  I won't apologize to you for BUYING  a purebred dog from a line of successful flock guardians for my farm.  None of my assorted gang of dogs was up to the job so I went for a specialist.




I'm sure you know and did this but so-called "responsible breeders" have hips and elbows tested etc. I came across this -

strollingbones - You might be interested in this as well. 

Health Testing Requirements

Interesting that the breed at the top of the page is one of the saddest examples of over-breeding.


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## rightwinger

You can still get good dogs from a breeder

Working dogs, hunting dogs which were bred for skills rather than for looks are still out there


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## mamooth

strollingbones said:


> i would drop the cash into a doberman puppy.....i just cant do the training and refuse to have a half assed trained dog....i am too old to fight the puppy in them for a year or so....



I have a soft spot for dobies, but they're so damn stubborn as puppies. They know what you want them to do. They just don't want to do it. They grow out of it, but what a pain until they do.

Cats, I never have to worry about choosing one to adopt. They always just find me. The one in my avi is an old-style applehead Siamese who came to stay with me. He's shaped like a normal cat, in comparison to the skinny mutants of the Modern Siamese breed.


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## bodecea

We adopted one of more than 190 badly neglected yorkies from an old couple who was hoarding them in this area.    Very sad situation....the people at the San Diego Humane Society said it was one of the worst cases they'd ever seen.   The one we got is about 7 years old....obviously had malnutrition issues....half her teeth are gone and she's got bad joints....scared of noises and was probably over-bred.   But she's beginning to adjust to her new pack and we've almost got her completely house-broken now.


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## Compost

Luddly Neddite said:


> Compost said:
> 
> 
> 
> There are many breeds developed over many many years were used for specific jobs- herders, drovers, flock guardians, estate guardians, gun dogs, retrievers, flushers, companions, therapy dogs, police dogs  etc.  To suggest that breeding ought to be discontinued because there are some unscrupulous breeders makes no sense.  Should Leader Dogs for the Blind stop raising Labs because there are some backyard breeders who do a crummy job of raising Labs?
> 
> Yes.  Rescuing a dog is a beautiful thing to do.  So do it.  Don't demand that purebred dogs be wiped off the planet.  I won't apologize to you for BUYING  a purebred dog from a line of successful flock guardians for my farm.  None of my assorted gang of dogs was up to the job so I went for a specialist.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm sure you know and did this but so-called "responsible breeders" have hips and elbows tested etc. I came across this -
> 
> strollingbones - You might be interested in this as well.
> 
> Health Testing Requirements
> 
> Interesting that the breed at the top of the page is one of the saddest examples of over-breeding.
Click to expand...

Yes.  Good breeders test for elbows and hips and for breed specific problems.  I went to a good breeder.  There are lots of them, actually.  It's not all puppy mills and tragic cases.


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## Luddly Neddite

Although Purebred Dogs Can Be Best in Show, Are They Worst in Health?

DNA testing & simple inherited disorders • The Kennel Club


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## strollingbones

if i had my way.....no breeding period for 10 yrs or until this country stop putting down millions of dogs and cats a year


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## rightwinger

strollingbones said:


> if i had my way.....no breeding period for 10 yrs or until this country stop putting down millions of dogs and cats a year



Responsible pet owners still spay and neuter their pets. They should not be held responsible for those who allow their pets to breed indiscriminately


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## Compost

rightwinger said:


> strollingbones said:
> 
> 
> 
> if i had my way.....no breeding period for 10 yrs or until this country stop putting down millions of dogs and cats a year
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Responsible pet owners still spay and neuter their pets. They should not be held responsible for those who allow their pets to breed indiscriminately
Click to expand...

Nor should wonderful breeds of dogs be rendered extinct.


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## ChrisL

I saw the CUTEST little chihuahua today.  She was a little teacup chihuahua and had to have been the tiniest little dog I've ever seen.  She was about the size of a squirrel, seriously!  I want one of those.  They are just adorable.  The lady was telling me that she has her own little doggy wardrobe and little doggy hats too, even a leprechaun hat.  Lol!    That's hilarious.  I would love to see that little dog in a leprechaun hat!


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## ChrisL

Luddly Neddite said:


> This is only the tip of the iceberg of the issue of over breeding. There are many more examples - pit bulls, retrievers, King Charles spaniels but here are a few.
> 
> It used to be that cats were strong and healthy because they were not bred for deformities like dogs are. Not anymore. I have rescued two Maine coon cats. My first died at age 4 of a congenital heart defect that is common in that breed.
> 
> IMO, we should stop breeding "pure breeds". It almost never "improves the breed" and "registered AKC" is basically nothing more than having the dog's name, and yours, written in a book.
> 
> Adopt from a shelter. And if you think you want a "pure breed", check for breed rescues and check at your local shelter. fully 25% of all animals taken to shelters are pure breeds and more than 80% are younger than 3 years old. IOW, we're killing young healthy animals because more are born than there are homes for. Adopting from a shelter makes you part of the answer instead of part of the cause of the inexcusable tragedy of dog and cat overpopulation.



I saw a huge St. Bernard the other day.  It was the biggest one I've ever seen, I think.  It dwarfed the person walking it.  I wonder why they do this to the poor dogs?


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## ChrisL

I really like boxers too, but what a handful they are.  They have a ton of energy and are very high strung dogs.  They are so expressive and have such great personalities though!  I love their adorable and expressive faces!


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## Moonglow

Jimmy_Chitwood said:


> Luddly Neddite said:
> 
> 
> 
> This is only the tip of the iceberg of the issue of over breeding. There are many more examples - pit bulls, retrievers, King Charles spaniels but here are a few.
> 
> It used to be that cats were strong and healthy because they were not bred for deformities like dogs are. Not anymore. I have rescued two Maine coon cats. My first died at age 4 of a congenital heart defect that is common in that breed.
> 
> IMO, we should stop breeding "pure breeds". It almost never "improves the breed" and "registered AKC" is basically nothing more than having the dog's name, and yours, written in a book.
> 
> Adopt from a shelter. And if you think you want a "pure breed", check for breed rescues and check at your local shelter. fully 25% of all animals taken to shelters are pure breeds and more than 80% are younger than 3 years old. IOW, we're killing young healthy animals because more are born than there are homes for. Adopting from a shelter makes you part of the answer instead of part of the cause of the inexcusable tragedy of dog and cat overpopulation.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In my experience mutts are healthier, more intelligent, have a better disposition, and live longer.
Click to expand...

And chase sticks.


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## Moonglow

strollingbones said:


> if i had my way.....no breeding period for 10 yrs or until this country stop putting down millions of dogs and cats a year


That's okay, I didn't plan on anymore kids at my age..


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## Marion Morrison

Next time I want a dog, I'll go to the old neighborhood and find one from my old dog's bloodline.

He got around.  Up to a circular mile. 

That was a kickass bloodline, too.

His daddy slipped a chain and kept my motorcycle from getting stolen.

His daddy never barked, but if you didn't belong there you got bit.

I miss mah little woobah goobah.


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## Moonglow

rightwinger said:


> strollingbones said:
> 
> 
> 
> if i had my way.....no breeding period for 10 yrs or until this country stop putting down millions of dogs and cats a year
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Responsible pet owners still spay and neuter their pets. They should not be held responsible for those who allow their pets to breed indiscriminately
Click to expand...

Last year I had 7 biotches to spay and neuter.. A guy the other day ask me why with 11 dogs where are the  puppies...


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## ChrisL

I only had a puppy once when I was like 5 years old.  I went to spend the weekend with my grandparents and when I came home, my parents had gotten rid of the puppy because it wouldn't stop barking.  I've only had cats and other small animals.  I want a dog though, just a little tiny one.


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## strollingbones

first with the ability to freeze eggs and sperm  no breed is going to be rendered extinct....2nd people who neuter their pets could care less about a breeding ban....

i have these 2 dogs and 3 cats cause someone tossed them out...yea i got a right to complain about irresponsible animal owners


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## Luddly Neddite

ChrisL said:


> I saw the CUTEST little chihuahua today.  She was a little teacup chihuahua and had to have been the tiniest little dog I've ever seen.  She was about the size of a squirrel, seriously!  I want one of those.  They are just adorable.  The lady was telling me that she has her own little doggy wardrobe and little doggy hats too, even a leprechaun hat.  Lol!    That's hilarious.  I would love to see that little dog in a leprechaun hat!




But that's as bad as the huge St Bernards. 

I think the worst thing that can happen to dog breeds is to catch the interest of humans. Chihuahuas after Godzilla came out and that adorably funny commercial "You're going to need a bigger box", Dalmatians after the Disney movie. 

I remember way back when Shar Pei's first became popular, they sold for $3000 and up. People bought them up, bred them and bread them and bred them and now, they have horrible eyes, horrible skin and people can't give them away fast enough. 

Same with dobies, GSDs, Jack Russel's, ChowChows and on and on.

The second a breed gets popular, the BYBs breed them for money and the breed is ruined. 

The worst example is pits. They were once really great dogs. Now I wouldn't consider having one. 

Yeah, I feel really strongly about this. Comes from being in rescue for 50 years.


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## Luddly Neddite

ChrisL said:


> I really like boxers too, but what a handful they are.  They have a ton of energy and are very high strung dogs.  They are so expressive and have such great personalities though!  I love their adorable and expressive faces!




They've been badly over bred too. Short nose, can't breathe, can't control their body temp. Sad dogs.


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## Luddly Neddite

strollingbones said:


> first with the ability to freeze eggs and sperm  no breed is going to be rendered extinct....2nd people who neuter their pets could care less about a breeding ban....
> 
> i have these 2 dogs and 3 cats cause someone tossed them out...yea i got a right to complain about irresponsible animal owners




I'd like a breeding tax. Its the breeders who cause the problem so why should they have to pay for our animal controls, for killing the excess and so on. 

I have no idea how that could ever be enforced though. 

In Tcsn, we got a bill on the ballot to add 2 cents to every bag of dog and cat food. TWO CENTS. It was to be used to subsidize spay/neuter. It didn't pass.


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## Luddly Neddite

Marion Morrison said:


> Next time I want a dog, I'll go to the old neighborhood and find one from my old dog's bloodline.
> 
> He got around.  Up to a circular mile.
> 
> That was a kickass bloodline, too.
> 
> His daddy slipped a chain and kept my motorcycle from getting stolen.
> 
> His daddy never barked, but if you didn't belong there you got bit.
> 
> I miss mah little woobah goobah.




Marion Morrison

In view of your name and avatar and now learning that you actually let your intact male dog run the neighborhood and farther, I'll just bet you're one of those "men" who. when the subject of castrating their dogs is mentioned, grab for their own crotches.

I've dealt with impotent assholes like that all my life. They cause so much pain and suffering and they just don't give a fuck.


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## rightwinger

ChrisL said:


> I saw the CUTEST little chihuahua today.  She was a little teacup chihuahua and had to have been the tiniest little dog I've ever seen.  She was about the size of a squirrel, seriously!  I want one of those.  They are just adorable.  The lady was telling me that she has her own little doggy wardrobe and little doggy hats too, even a leprechaun hat.  Lol!    That's hilarious.  I would love to see that little dog in a leprechaun hat!



That is the problem with today's breeding choices

Concentrate on "cute" instead of the dogs health, disposition and intelligence


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## Uncensored2008

Luddly Neddite said:


> This is only the tip of the iceberg of the issue of over breeding. There are many more examples - pit bulls, retrievers, King Charles spaniels but here are a few.
> 
> It used to be that cats were strong and healthy because they were not bred for deformities like dogs are. Not anymore. I have rescued two Maine coon cats. My first died at age 4 of a congenital heart defect that is common in that breed.
> 
> IMO, we should stop breeding "pure breeds". It almost never "improves the breed" and "registered AKC" is basically nothing more than having the dog's name, and yours, written in a book.
> 
> Adopt from a shelter. And if you think you want a "pure breed", check for breed rescues and check at your local shelter. fully 25% of all animals taken to shelters are pure breeds and more than 80% are younger than 3 years old. IOW, we're killing young healthy animals because more are born than there are homes for. Adopting from a shelter makes you part of the answer instead of part of the cause of the inexcusable tragedy of dog and cat overpopulation.



You are literally insane.

We have been breeding dogs for 5,000 years.

Grow up.


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## Pogo

strollingbones said:


> i would drop the cash into a doberman puppy.....i just cant do the training and refuse to have a half assed trained dog....i am too old to fight the puppy in them for a year or so....
> 
> i swear this new one,,,ernest t...is suppose to be a mix....jack russel and satan?



That's redundant.  A Jack Russell_* is*_ Satan.


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## Pogo

ChrisL said:


> I really like boxers too, but what a handful they are.  They have a ton of energy and are very high strung dogs.  They are so expressive and have such great personalities though!  I love their adorable and expressive faces!


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## fncceo

My dog is a purebred Japanese Spitz ... where over breeding has cursed my poor pet with weapons-grade adorability.






We can never let this amount of cute fall into the hands of our enemies, it could doom us all.


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## featherlite

Luddly Neddite said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> I really like boxers too, but what a handful they are.  They have a ton of energy and are very high strung dogs.  They are so expressive and have such great personalities though!  I love their adorable and expressive faces!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> They've been badly over bred too. Short nose, can't breathe, can't control their body temp. Sad dogs.
Click to expand...


Exactly, some breeds have serious breathing problems now. Others have skin issues.  Pure breds arent "wrong", its the breeders who want the "best in show" ... best for greedy humans, not the animals.


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## Ambery

love dogs so much. My favorite breed of dog is the dogo argentino. I really want a puppy of this breed. They are excellent companions, a wonderful family dog and will protect their family.


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## Pogo

Ambery said:


> love dogs so much. My favorite breed of dog is the dogo argentino. I really want a puppy of this breed. They are excellent companions, a wonderful family dog and will protect their family.



I bet that one needs a lot of exercise.


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## ChrisL

Ambery said:


> love dogs so much. My favorite breed of dog is the dogo argentino. I really want a puppy of this breed. They are excellent companions, a wonderful family dog and will protect their family.



Looks a lot like a boxer.


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## ChrisL

I like all dogs.  In fact, I would say that I like all animals except for the human ones.


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## PredFan

Luddly Neddite said:


> This is only the tip of the iceberg of the issue of over breeding. There are many more examples - pit bulls, retrievers, King Charles spaniels but here are a few.
> 
> It used to be that cats were strong and healthy because they were not bred for deformities like dogs are. Not anymore. I have rescued two Maine coon cats. My first died at age 4 of a congenital heart defect that is common in that breed.
> 
> IMO, we should stop breeding "pure breeds". It almost never "improves the breed" and "registered AKC" is basically nothing more than having the dog's name, and yours, written in a book.
> 
> Adopt from a shelter. And if you think you want a "pure breed", check for breed rescues and check at your local shelter. fully 25% of all animals taken to shelters are pure breeds and more than 80% are younger than 3 years old. IOW, we're killing young healthy animals because more are born than there are homes for. Adopting from a shelter makes you part of the answer instead of part of the cause of the inexcusable tragedy of dog and cat overpopulation.



Wow! That's kind of creepy.


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## Compost

Whatever, ladies.  I prefer this thread's topic.  Here's a picture of a Great Pyrenees.  This is the breed that protects my ducks.


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## featherlite

Compost said:


> Whatever, ladies.  I prefer this thread's topic.  Here's a picture of a Great Pyrenees.  This is the breed that protects my ducks.




I love ducks.


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## ChrisL

Anyhow, moving along (and ignoring the weirdos - lol).  

A friend of mine got the cutest little Westy recently.  I love those cute little things.  She puts a little barrette in her hair.  Her name is Elvira.  If I was to get a dog, I would give consideration to a Westy because of this dog.  SOOOO adorable.  Getting a dog right now is just not feasible for me though, I'm too busy to be there for it.


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## Compost

ChrisL said:


> Anyhow, moving along (and ignoring the weirdos - lol).
> 
> A friend of mine got the cutest little Westy recently.  I love those cute little things.  She puts a little barrette in her hair.  Her name is Elvira.  If I was to get a dog, I would give consideration to a Westy because of this dog.  SOOOO adorable.  Getting a dog right now is just not feasible for me though, I'm too busy to be there for it.


Westies are spunky!  It's a terrier thing.  I've heard from Westie owners that they are very demanding about attention.  They will not be ignored!


----------



## ChrisL

Compost said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> Anyhow, moving along (and ignoring the weirdos - lol).
> 
> A friend of mine got the cutest little Westy recently.  I love those cute little things.  She puts a little barrette in her hair.  Her name is Elvira.  If I was to get a dog, I would give consideration to a Westy because of this dog.  SOOOO adorable.  Getting a dog right now is just not feasible for me though, I'm too busy to be there for it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Westies are spunky!  It's a terrier thing.  I've heard from Westie owners that they are very demanding about attention.  They will not be ignored!
Click to expand...


My friend's Westy is really energetic and gets into everything, but she is just a puppy still.  I love her outgoing personality though.  She has a really cute personality and is very friendly and affectionate.


----------



## Coyote

*33 derailing and off topic posts have been removed.  Community threads like Pets are places to have fun - and a dog thread is not the place for a cat fight.  Take it to the Flame Zone.*

*



*


----------



## Uncensored2008

Pogo said:


> K9Buck said:
> 
> 
> 
> The AKC and the show rings have done catastrophic damage to dogs.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Human hubris, fucking up Nature as usual.
Click to expand...



DERP

There are no "natural" dogs, fucktard. Dogs are a creation of man.


----------



## Coyote

Compost said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> Anyhow, moving along (and ignoring the weirdos - lol).
> 
> A friend of mine got the cutest little Westy recently.  I love those cute little things.  She puts a little barrette in her hair.  Her name is Elvira.  If I was to get a dog, I would give consideration to a Westy because of this dog.  SOOOO adorable.  Getting a dog right now is just not feasible for me though, I'm too busy to be there for it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Westies are spunky!  It's a terrier thing.  I've heard from Westie owners that they are very demanding about attention.  They will not be ignored!
Click to expand...



I'm kind of a hard core herding dog enthusiast, but currently have two "oddball" dogs I never thought I'd have.  One is an Akita mix, the other is a terrier (maybe rat terrier?) - border collie type mix.  And damn...that terrier side, it's the dark force   He critters so intensely NOTHING can break the concentration!


----------



## Coyote

Uncensored2008 said:


> Pogo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> K9Buck said:
> 
> 
> 
> The AKC and the show rings have done catastrophic damage to dogs.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Human hubris, fucking up Nature as usual.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> DERP
> 
> There are no "natural" dogs, fucktard. Dogs are a creation of man.
Click to expand...


Yes and no....dogs co-evolved with humanity.  If you want to look at "natural" dogs - look at what are commonly called "village dogs" or "pariah dogs" or "street dogs".  The whole purebred dog thing is actually a creation of the Victorian era.


----------



## Uncensored2008

Coyote said:


> Uncensored2008 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pogo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> K9Buck said:
> 
> 
> 
> The AKC and the show rings have done catastrophic damage to dogs.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Human hubris, fucking up Nature as usual.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> DERP
> 
> There are no "natural" dogs, fucktard. Dogs are a creation of man.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yes and no....dogs co-evolved with humanity.  If you want to look at "natural" dogs - look at what are commonly called "village dogs" or "pariah dogs" or "street dogs".  The whole purebred dog thing is actually a creation of the Victorian era.
Click to expand...


Nope.

Dogs were bred from wolves. Camp wolves were domesticated and using selective breeding ALL of the dogs that exist now were created.

{
Dogs were just a loose category of wolves until around 15,000 years ago, when our ancestors tamed and began to manage them. We fed them, bred them, and spread them from continent to continent. While other wolf descendants died out, dogs grew into a new species. We invented the dog.

We didn't pick just any wolves for this project. We picked the ones that could help us and get along with us. Dogs are dumber than monkeys and other mammals in many ways, but they excel at one thing: interpreting human behavior. Three years ago, scientists tested this talent in wolves, adult dogs, puppies raised in households, and puppies raised in kennels. The wolves couldn't read humans well, but the puppies could—even the puppies raised in kennels. Through selection, we've hardwired human compatibility into dogs. We've made a species in our image.
}
Our creepiest genetic invention: the dog.

Now Slate is a Nazi hate site that spews the kind of shit that Pillowbite does, but they are right on the science part.


----------



## Coyote

Uncensored2008 said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Uncensored2008 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pogo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> K9Buck said:
> 
> 
> 
> The AKC and the show rings have done catastrophic damage to dogs.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Human hubris, fucking up Nature as usual.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> DERP
> 
> There are no "natural" dogs, fucktard. Dogs are a creation of man.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yes and no....dogs co-evolved with humanity.  If you want to look at "natural" dogs - look at what are commonly called "village dogs" or "pariah dogs" or "street dogs".  The whole purebred dog thing is actually a creation of the Victorian era.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Nope.
> 
> Dogs were bred from wolves. Camp wolves were domesticated and using selective breeding ALL of the dogs that exist now were created.
> 
> {
> Dogs were just a loose category of wolves until around 15,000 years ago, when our ancestors tamed and began to manage them. We fed them, bred them, and spread them from continent to continent. While other wolf descendants died out, dogs grew into a new species. We invented the dog.
> 
> We didn't pick just any wolves for this project. We picked the ones that could help us and get along with us. Dogs are dumber than monkeys and other mammals in many ways, but they excel at one thing: interpreting human behavior. Three years ago, scientists tested this talent in wolves, adult dogs, puppies raised in households, and puppies raised in kennels. The wolves couldn't read humans well, but the puppies could—even the puppies raised in kennels. Through selection, we've hardwired human compatibility into dogs. We've made a species in our image.
> }
> Our creepiest genetic invention: the dog.
> 
> Now Slate is a Nazi hate site that spews the kind of shit that Pillowbite does, but they are right on the science part.
Click to expand...



There's some dispute with that actually.  Have you ever read Ray Coppinger's book on dogs?  It's really well worth the read and it (among other research) takes a different path on the domestication of dogs, one which in my view makes a lot of sense.  Domestication usually begins with a species that gradually evolves to live close to human habitats - the flight/fight response is suppressed.  Dogs evolved from a common wolf ancester - but they evolved, they weren't selectively bred until later.  They evolved as scavengers - a role they still have as ferals around the world.  Their jaws are weaker than any wolf, their instincts are different - unlike wolves they have evolved to bond with humans.  There are a lot of interesting experiments on the differences between wolves and dogs (your link is one).  This also explains why wolves never really become like dogs.  Even if you bottle raise a wolf pup from birth - it is still a wolf.  It is shy, powerful, not strongly bonded to humanity - it's not useful to a primitive human as a hunting partner.  It's hard to imagine primitive people starting with a wild wolf and selectively breeding - that is resource intensive and doesn't make sense in a survivalist society.  But if you start the process with an animal that is already partly domesticated through close association with human habitats - it's a bit easier.  To me it makes sense that they co-evolved.


Dogs, But Not Wolves, Use Humans As Tools  (this one might be based on the one you linked to)

http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2015/09/why-dogs-turn-us-help


----------



## IsaacNewton

California is considering legislation that would require all businesses that sell animals to get their stock from shelters rather than breeders. As you can imagine the breeders are freaking the hell out. I think a mix would be best, no need to put all those people out of business but certainly it would be preferable to save animals already born. This genetic degeneration that the OP points out is something I had never heard of before but it makes sense. It is the same as the few human families that used to rule Europe. They inbred with each other exclusively and they developed many genetically caused diseases among their small population. 

Research has found that bears and wolves, even in a national park the size of Yellowstone, need a larger breeding population to stay genetically healthy. Biologists are finding that the breaking up of natural range of these animal populations which goes from the central US to Northern Canada, because of privately owned land, cuts off populations and they are relegated to what in essence is a genetic island. Steps are being taken to work with land owners to reestablish the normal very large range for these large animals to keep their gene pools healthy.


----------



## IsaacNewton

Coyote said:


> Uncensored2008 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Uncensored2008 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pogo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> K9Buck said:
> 
> 
> 
> The AKC and the show rings have done catastrophic damage to dogs.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Human hubris, fucking up Nature as usual.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> DERP
> 
> There are no "natural" dogs, fucktard. Dogs are a creation of man.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yes and no....dogs co-evolved with humanity.  If you want to look at "natural" dogs - look at what are commonly called "village dogs" or "pariah dogs" or "street dogs".  The whole purebred dog thing is actually a creation of the Victorian era.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Nope.
> 
> Dogs were bred from wolves. Camp wolves were domesticated and using selective breeding ALL of the dogs that exist now were created.
> 
> {
> Dogs were just a loose category of wolves until around 15,000 years ago, when our ancestors tamed and began to manage them. We fed them, bred them, and spread them from continent to continent. While other wolf descendants died out, dogs grew into a new species. We invented the dog.
> 
> We didn't pick just any wolves for this project. We picked the ones that could help us and get along with us. Dogs are dumber than monkeys and other mammals in many ways, but they excel at one thing: interpreting human behavior. Three years ago, scientists tested this talent in wolves, adult dogs, puppies raised in households, and puppies raised in kennels. The wolves couldn't read humans well, but the puppies could—even the puppies raised in kennels. Through selection, we've hardwired human compatibility into dogs. We've made a species in our image.
> }
> Our creepiest genetic invention: the dog.
> 
> Now Slate is a Nazi hate site that spews the kind of shit that Pillowbite does, but they are right on the science part.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> There's some dispute with that actually.  Have you ever read Ray Coppinger's book on dogs?  It's really well worth the read and it (among other research) takes a different path on the domestication of dogs, one which in my view makes a lot of sense.  Domestication usually begins with a species that gradually evolves to live close to human habitats - the flight/fight response is suppressed.  Dogs evolved from a common wolf ancester - but they evolved, they weren't selectively bred until later.  They evolved as scavengers - a role they still have as ferals around the world.  Their jaws are weaker than any wolf, their instincts are different - unlike wolves they have evolved to bond with humans.  There are a lot of interesting experiments on the differences between wolves and dogs (your link is one).  This also explains why wolves never really become like dogs.  Even if you bottle raise a wolf pup from birth - it is still a wolf.  It is shy, powerful, not strongly bonded to humanity - it's not useful to a primitive human as a hunting partner.  It's hard to imagine primitive people starting with a wild wolf and selectively breeding - that is resource intensive and doesn't make sense in a survivalist society.  But if you start the process with an animal that is already partly domesticated through close association with human habitats - it's a bit easier.  To me it makes sense that they co-evolved.
> 
> 
> Dogs, But Not Wolves, Use Humans As Tools  (this one might be based on the one you linked to)
> 
> http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2015/09/why-dogs-turn-us-help
Click to expand...



There is a documentary somewhere where the Russians did a long experiment with caged wolves. Some of them almost never came to trust or work with humans, while others VERY quickly trusted humans and easily became domesticated. It has to do with the genetics of the wolves themselves, humans didn't breed anything into wolves 10,000 years ago. Some wolves were predisposed to form a symbiotic relationship with humans which was beneficial to both.


----------



## Coyote

IsaacNewton said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Uncensored2008 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Uncensored2008 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pogo said:
> 
> 
> 
> Human hubris, fucking up Nature as usual.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> DERP
> 
> There are no "natural" dogs, fucktard. Dogs are a creation of man.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yes and no....dogs co-evolved with humanity.  If you want to look at "natural" dogs - look at what are commonly called "village dogs" or "pariah dogs" or "street dogs".  The whole purebred dog thing is actually a creation of the Victorian era.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Nope.
> 
> Dogs were bred from wolves. Camp wolves were domesticated and using selective breeding ALL of the dogs that exist now were created.
> 
> {
> Dogs were just a loose category of wolves until around 15,000 years ago, when our ancestors tamed and began to manage them. We fed them, bred them, and spread them from continent to continent. While other wolf descendants died out, dogs grew into a new species. We invented the dog.
> 
> We didn't pick just any wolves for this project. We picked the ones that could help us and get along with us. Dogs are dumber than monkeys and other mammals in many ways, but they excel at one thing: interpreting human behavior. Three years ago, scientists tested this talent in wolves, adult dogs, puppies raised in households, and puppies raised in kennels. The wolves couldn't read humans well, but the puppies could—even the puppies raised in kennels. Through selection, we've hardwired human compatibility into dogs. We've made a species in our image.
> }
> Our creepiest genetic invention: the dog.
> 
> Now Slate is a Nazi hate site that spews the kind of shit that Pillowbite does, but they are right on the science part.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> There's some dispute with that actually.  Have you ever read Ray Coppinger's book on dogs?  It's really well worth the read and it (among other research) takes a different path on the domestication of dogs, one which in my view makes a lot of sense.  Domestication usually begins with a species that gradually evolves to live close to human habitats - the flight/fight response is suppressed.  Dogs evolved from a common wolf ancester - but they evolved, they weren't selectively bred until later.  They evolved as scavengers - a role they still have as ferals around the world.  Their jaws are weaker than any wolf, their instincts are different - unlike wolves they have evolved to bond with humans.  There are a lot of interesting experiments on the differences between wolves and dogs (your link is one).  This also explains why wolves never really become like dogs.  Even if you bottle raise a wolf pup from birth - it is still a wolf.  It is shy, powerful, not strongly bonded to humanity - it's not useful to a primitive human as a hunting partner.  It's hard to imagine primitive people starting with a wild wolf and selectively breeding - that is resource intensive and doesn't make sense in a survivalist society.  But if you start the process with an animal that is already partly domesticated through close association with human habitats - it's a bit easier.  To me it makes sense that they co-evolved.
> 
> 
> Dogs, But Not Wolves, Use Humans As Tools  (this one might be based on the one you linked to)
> 
> http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2015/09/why-dogs-turn-us-help
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> There is a documentary somewhere where the Russians did a long experiment with caged wolves. Some of them almost never came to trust or work with humans, while others VERY quickly trusted humans and easily became domesticated. It has to do with the genetics of the wolves themselves, humans didn't breed anything into wolves 10,000 years ago. Some wolves were predisposed to form a symbiotic relationship with humans which was beneficial to both.
Click to expand...


They did something like that with foxes as well and that was interesting - they selected for the "tamest", most easily handled, least frightened.  The other side of that selection process was that they also started to see altered morphology.  The animals showed white markings, more "infantile" characteristics (in many ways, selecting for tameness is also selecting for traits that occur in the very young) - they were seeing more domed heads, dropped ears for example.


----------



## Coyote

IsaacNewton said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Uncensored2008 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Uncensored2008 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pogo said:
> 
> 
> 
> Human hubris, fucking up Nature as usual.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> DERP
> 
> There are no "natural" dogs, fucktard. Dogs are a creation of man.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yes and no....dogs co-evolved with humanity.  If you want to look at "natural" dogs - look at what are commonly called "village dogs" or "pariah dogs" or "street dogs".  The whole purebred dog thing is actually a creation of the Victorian era.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Nope.
> 
> Dogs were bred from wolves. Camp wolves were domesticated and using selective breeding ALL of the dogs that exist now were created.
> 
> {
> Dogs were just a loose category of wolves until around 15,000 years ago, when our ancestors tamed and began to manage them. We fed them, bred them, and spread them from continent to continent. While other wolf descendants died out, dogs grew into a new species. We invented the dog.
> 
> We didn't pick just any wolves for this project. We picked the ones that could help us and get along with us. Dogs are dumber than monkeys and other mammals in many ways, but they excel at one thing: interpreting human behavior. Three years ago, scientists tested this talent in wolves, adult dogs, puppies raised in households, and puppies raised in kennels. The wolves couldn't read humans well, but the puppies could—even the puppies raised in kennels. Through selection, we've hardwired human compatibility into dogs. We've made a species in our image.
> }
> Our creepiest genetic invention: the dog.
> 
> Now Slate is a Nazi hate site that spews the kind of shit that Pillowbite does, but they are right on the science part.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> There's some dispute with that actually.  Have you ever read Ray Coppinger's book on dogs?  It's really well worth the read and it (among other research) takes a different path on the domestication of dogs, one which in my view makes a lot of sense.  Domestication usually begins with a species that gradually evolves to live close to human habitats - the flight/fight response is suppressed.  Dogs evolved from a common wolf ancester - but they evolved, they weren't selectively bred until later.  They evolved as scavengers - a role they still have as ferals around the world.  Their jaws are weaker than any wolf, their instincts are different - unlike wolves they have evolved to bond with humans.  There are a lot of interesting experiments on the differences between wolves and dogs (your link is one).  This also explains why wolves never really become like dogs.  Even if you bottle raise a wolf pup from birth - it is still a wolf.  It is shy, powerful, not strongly bonded to humanity - it's not useful to a primitive human as a hunting partner.  It's hard to imagine primitive people starting with a wild wolf and selectively breeding - that is resource intensive and doesn't make sense in a survivalist society.  But if you start the process with an animal that is already partly domesticated through close association with human habitats - it's a bit easier.  To me it makes sense that they co-evolved.
> 
> 
> Dogs, But Not Wolves, Use Humans As Tools  (this one might be based on the one you linked to)
> 
> http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2015/09/why-dogs-turn-us-help
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> There is a documentary somewhere where the Russians did a long experiment with caged wolves. Some of them almost never came to trust or work with humans, while others VERY quickly trusted humans and easily became domesticated. It has to do with the genetics of the wolves themselves, humans didn't breed anything into wolves 10,000 years ago. Some wolves were predisposed to form a symbiotic relationship with humans which was beneficial to both.
Click to expand...


They did something like that with foxes as well and that was interesting - they selected for the "tamest", most easily handled, least frightened.  The other side of that selection process was that they also started to see altered morphology.  The animals showed white markings, more "infantile" characteristics (in many ways, selecting for tameness is also selecting for traits that occur in the very young) - they were seeing more domed heads, dropped ears for example.


----------



## Coyote

IsaacNewton said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Uncensored2008 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Uncensored2008 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pogo said:
> 
> 
> 
> Human hubris, fucking up Nature as usual.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> DERP
> 
> There are no "natural" dogs, fucktard. Dogs are a creation of man.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yes and no....dogs co-evolved with humanity.  If you want to look at "natural" dogs - look at what are commonly called "village dogs" or "pariah dogs" or "street dogs".  The whole purebred dog thing is actually a creation of the Victorian era.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Nope.
> 
> Dogs were bred from wolves. Camp wolves were domesticated and using selective breeding ALL of the dogs that exist now were created.
> 
> {
> Dogs were just a loose category of wolves until around 15,000 years ago, when our ancestors tamed and began to manage them. We fed them, bred them, and spread them from continent to continent. While other wolf descendants died out, dogs grew into a new species. We invented the dog.
> 
> We didn't pick just any wolves for this project. We picked the ones that could help us and get along with us. Dogs are dumber than monkeys and other mammals in many ways, but they excel at one thing: interpreting human behavior. Three years ago, scientists tested this talent in wolves, adult dogs, puppies raised in households, and puppies raised in kennels. The wolves couldn't read humans well, but the puppies could—even the puppies raised in kennels. Through selection, we've hardwired human compatibility into dogs. We've made a species in our image.
> }
> Our creepiest genetic invention: the dog.
> 
> Now Slate is a Nazi hate site that spews the kind of shit that Pillowbite does, but they are right on the science part.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> There's some dispute with that actually.  Have you ever read Ray Coppinger's book on dogs?  It's really well worth the read and it (among other research) takes a different path on the domestication of dogs, one which in my view makes a lot of sense.  Domestication usually begins with a species that gradually evolves to live close to human habitats - the flight/fight response is suppressed.  Dogs evolved from a common wolf ancester - but they evolved, they weren't selectively bred until later.  They evolved as scavengers - a role they still have as ferals around the world.  Their jaws are weaker than any wolf, their instincts are different - unlike wolves they have evolved to bond with humans.  There are a lot of interesting experiments on the differences between wolves and dogs (your link is one).  This also explains why wolves never really become like dogs.  Even if you bottle raise a wolf pup from birth - it is still a wolf.  It is shy, powerful, not strongly bonded to humanity - it's not useful to a primitive human as a hunting partner.  It's hard to imagine primitive people starting with a wild wolf and selectively breeding - that is resource intensive and doesn't make sense in a survivalist society.  But if you start the process with an animal that is already partly domesticated through close association with human habitats - it's a bit easier.  To me it makes sense that they co-evolved.
> 
> 
> Dogs, But Not Wolves, Use Humans As Tools  (this one might be based on the one you linked to)
> 
> http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2015/09/why-dogs-turn-us-help
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> There is a documentary somewhere where the Russians did a long experiment with caged wolves. Some of them almost never came to trust or work with humans, while others VERY quickly trusted humans and easily became domesticated. It has to do with the genetics of the wolves themselves, humans didn't breed anything into wolves 10,000 years ago. Some wolves were predisposed to form a symbiotic relationship with humans which was beneficial to both.
Click to expand...


They did something like that with foxes as well and that was interesting - they selected for the "tamest", most easily handled, least frightened.  The other side of that selection process was that they also started to see altered morphology.  The animals showed white markings, more "infantile" characteristics (in many ways, selecting for tameness is also selecting for traits that occur in the very young) - they were seeing more domed heads, dropped ears for example.


----------



## Coyote

IsaacNewton said:


> California is considering legislation that would require all businesses that sell animals to get their stock from shelters rather than breeders. As you can imagine the breeders are freaking the hell out. I think a mix would be best, no need to put all those people out of business but certainly it would be preferable to save animals already born. This genetic degeneration that the OP points out is something I had never heard of before but it makes sense. It is the same as the few human families that used to rule Europe. They inbred with each other exclusively and they developed many genetically caused diseases among their small population.
> 
> Research has found that bears and wolves, even in a national park the size of Yellowstone, need a larger breeding population to stay genetically healthy. Biologists are finding that the breaking up of natural range of these animal populations which goes from the central US to Northern Canada, because of privately owned land, cuts off populations and they are relegated to what in essence is a genetic island. Steps are being taken to work with land owners to reestablish the normal very large range for these large animals to keep their gene pools healthy.



I am very pro rescue and shelter dog but I wouldn't agree with that.  There are good breeders who are dedicated to producing solid, healthy dogs - they don't breed often, they health test...there is space for them and purpose bred dogs like working stock dogs etc.

A lot of pure breeds have bottle  necks in their genetic pools - sometimes there are just too few, sometimes it's a "popular sire" syndrome - but once the studbooks close, that is that.  Breeds like Bernese Mountain dogs have a very small genetic pool and a high high rate of certain cancers.  What I dislike about the AKC (and othe registries) is that the emphasis is on the "pure bred" dog NOT the healthy dog.  Years ago dalmation breeders wanted to eradicate the gene in their breed that leads to high uric acid concentrations (almost every dalmation is a carrier or afflicted) - they bred back to a pointer (one of the breeds that made up the dalmation) and then selectively bred for a dog that looked like a dalmation but did  not carry that gene.  The end result looked, acted and bred true like a dalmation.  Caused HUGE consternation, they were blocked from registry and finally allowed to be registered but with a special designation (that they weren't quite pure).  It was ridiculous - better "pure" then genetically healthy!


----------



## bodecea

A little off topic...we had an elderly couple here in North San Diego County that got caught hording dogs...mostly Yorkies.....the final count was about 190!    It was horrible.   Some had to be put down due to malnutrition, in-breeding etc.  but we were fortunate to adopt one of them.  Poor thing lost about half her teeth, 7 years old and we've had to house train her and socialize her with our other dogs and she had some bowed leg issues, probably rickets.   I guess she may have had a few litters tho she's fixed now.   She's a sweetheart!


----------



## Coyote

bodecea said:


> A little off topic...we had an elderly couple here in North San Diego County that got caught hording dogs...mostly Yorkies.....the final count was about 190!    It was horrible.   Some had to be put down due to malnutrition, in-breeding etc.  but we were fortunate to adopt one of them.  Poor thing lost about half her teeth, 7 years old and we've had to house train her and socialize her with our other dogs and she had some bowed leg issues, probably rickets.   I guess she may have had a few litters tho she's fixed now.   She's a sweetheart!




Hoarder (and puppy mill) dogs can be very challenging to adopt - they have special needs, especially social.  Bless you for taking one on


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## Coyote

Coyote said:


> IsaacNewton said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Uncensored2008 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Uncensored2008 said:
> 
> 
> 
> DERP
> 
> There are no "natural" dogs, fucktard. Dogs are a creation of man.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes and no....dogs co-evolved with humanity.  If you want to look at "natural" dogs - look at what are commonly called "village dogs" or "pariah dogs" or "street dogs".  The whole purebred dog thing is actually a creation of the Victorian era.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Nope.
> 
> Dogs were bred from wolves. Camp wolves were domesticated and using selective breeding ALL of the dogs that exist now were created.
> 
> {
> Dogs were just a loose category of wolves until around 15,000 years ago, when our ancestors tamed and began to manage them. We fed them, bred them, and spread them from continent to continent. While other wolf descendants died out, dogs grew into a new species. We invented the dog.
> 
> We didn't pick just any wolves for this project. We picked the ones that could help us and get along with us. Dogs are dumber than monkeys and other mammals in many ways, but they excel at one thing: interpreting human behavior. Three years ago, scientists tested this talent in wolves, adult dogs, puppies raised in households, and puppies raised in kennels. The wolves couldn't read humans well, but the puppies could—even the puppies raised in kennels. Through selection, we've hardwired human compatibility into dogs. We've made a species in our image.
> }
> Our creepiest genetic invention: the dog.
> 
> Now Slate is a Nazi hate site that spews the kind of shit that Pillowbite does, but they are right on the science part.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> There's some dispute with that actually.  Have you ever read Ray Coppinger's book on dogs?  It's really well worth the read and it (among other research) takes a different path on the domestication of dogs, one which in my view makes a lot of sense.  Domestication usually begins with a species that gradually evolves to live close to human habitats - the flight/fight response is suppressed.  Dogs evolved from a common wolf ancester - but they evolved, they weren't selectively bred until later.  They evolved as scavengers - a role they still have as ferals around the world.  Their jaws are weaker than any wolf, their instincts are different - unlike wolves they have evolved to bond with humans.  There are a lot of interesting experiments on the differences between wolves and dogs (your link is one).  This also explains why wolves never really become like dogs.  Even if you bottle raise a wolf pup from birth - it is still a wolf.  It is shy, powerful, not strongly bonded to humanity - it's not useful to a primitive human as a hunting partner.  It's hard to imagine primitive people starting with a wild wolf and selectively breeding - that is resource intensive and doesn't make sense in a survivalist society.  But if you start the process with an animal that is already partly domesticated through close association with human habitats - it's a bit easier.  To me it makes sense that they co-evolved.
> 
> 
> Dogs, But Not Wolves, Use Humans As Tools  (this one might be based on the one you linked to)
> 
> http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2015/09/why-dogs-turn-us-help
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> There is a documentary somewhere where the Russians did a long experiment with caged wolves. Some of them almost never came to trust or work with humans, while others VERY quickly trusted humans and easily became domesticated. It has to do with the genetics of the wolves themselves, humans didn't breed anything into wolves 10,000 years ago. Some wolves were predisposed to form a symbiotic relationship with humans which was beneficial to both.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> They did something like that with foxes as well and that was interesting - they selected for the "tamest", most easily handled, least frightened.  The other side of that selection process was that they also started to see altered morphology.  The animals showed white markings, more "infantile" characteristics (in many ways, selecting for tameness is also selecting for traits that occur in the very young) - they were seeing more domed heads, dropped ears for example.
Click to expand...


As a side note - I have a friend who raises domesticated deer.  Unlike cattle or sheep they are still pretty wild, with a high flight ratio.  Fawns MUST be bottle raised or they are just like wild deer.  In selecting for more domestic traits, deer farmers are also coming up with white markings - like dogs, like horses, like cattle


----------



## ChrisL

ChrisL said:


> Anyhow, moving along (and ignoring the weirdos - lol).
> 
> A friend of mine got the cutest little Westy recently.  I love those cute little things.  She puts a little barrette in her hair.  Her name is Elvira.  If I was to get a dog, I would give consideration to a Westy because of this dog.  SOOOO adorable.  Getting a dog right now is just not feasible for me though, I'm too busy to be there for it.



Her name is Tabitha, not Elvira.  Oops.  I knew it was some witchy sounding name though.


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## Uncensored2008

IsaacNewton said:


> [
> 
> There is a documentary somewhere where the Russians did a long experiment with caged wolves. Some of them almost never came to trust or work with humans, while others VERY quickly trusted humans and easily became domesticated. It has to do with the genetics of the wolves themselves, humans didn't breed anything into wolves 10,000 years ago. Some wolves were predisposed to form a symbiotic relationship with humans which was beneficial to both.



You are a very ignorant and uneducated dolt. You REALLY should take a night school class in the basics of science.

{
The ancestral wolves that evolved into domestic dogs may have carried genetic mutations that made them socialise more readily with people. What’s more, the same genes cause excessive sociability in humans.

It was already known that even if wolves have been raised with humans from birth, they never become as close to people or look at them as often as dogs tend to.

Several years ago, Bridgett vonHoldt at Princeton University in New Jersey and her colleagues linked this “hypersociability” to a 28-gene stretch of the dog genome that includes canine versions of the genes responsible for Williams syndrome – a human disorder characterised by extreme sociability. However, they had no direct proof that these genes caused it.





To find out whether they do, vonHoldt and her team tested the behaviour of 18 domestic dogs and 10 wolves, all of which had been raised identically with constant human contact. Each animal was scored for its hypersociability towards humans. As expected, the dogs scored higher than the wolves.

The researchers then sequenced the key region of each animal’s genome in fine detail and searched for structural variations – deletions or insertions of genetic material – that seemed to match well with their social behaviour. They found four, including two in genes called _GTF2I_ and _GTF2IRD1_. These genes are known to cause the hypersociability involved in Williams syndrome in humans, and _GTF2I _has also been shown to cause hypersociability in mice.}


First dogs may have been extremely sociable wolves

Science, you miserable troll, is not the mindless hate you read on DailKOS, but rather actual study.


----------



## Uncensored2008

Coyote said:


> Uncensored2008 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Uncensored2008 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pogo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> K9Buck said:
> 
> 
> 
> The AKC and the show rings have done catastrophic damage to dogs.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Human hubris, fucking up Nature as usual.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> DERP
> 
> There are no "natural" dogs, fucktard. Dogs are a creation of man.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yes and no....dogs co-evolved with humanity.  If you want to look at "natural" dogs - look at what are commonly called "village dogs" or "pariah dogs" or "street dogs".  The whole purebred dog thing is actually a creation of the Victorian era.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Nope.
> 
> Dogs were bred from wolves. Camp wolves were domesticated and using selective breeding ALL of the dogs that exist now were created.
> 
> {
> Dogs were just a loose category of wolves until around 15,000 years ago, when our ancestors tamed and began to manage them. We fed them, bred them, and spread them from continent to continent. While other wolf descendants died out, dogs grew into a new species. We invented the dog.
> 
> We didn't pick just any wolves for this project. We picked the ones that could help us and get along with us. Dogs are dumber than monkeys and other mammals in many ways, but they excel at one thing: interpreting human behavior. Three years ago, scientists tested this talent in wolves, adult dogs, puppies raised in households, and puppies raised in kennels. The wolves couldn't read humans well, but the puppies could—even the puppies raised in kennels. Through selection, we've hardwired human compatibility into dogs. We've made a species in our image.
> }
> Our creepiest genetic invention: the dog.
> 
> Now Slate is a Nazi hate site that spews the kind of shit that Pillowbite does, but they are right on the science part.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> There's some dispute with that actually.  Have you ever read Ray Coppinger's book on dogs?  It's really well worth the read and it (among other research) takes a different path on the domestication of dogs, one which in my view makes a lot of sense.  Domestication usually begins with a species that gradually evolves to live close to human habitats - the flight/fight response is suppressed.  Dogs evolved from a common wolf ancester - but they evolved, they weren't selectively bred until later.  They evolved as scavengers - a role they still have as ferals around the world.  Their jaws are weaker than any wolf, their instincts are different - unlike wolves they have evolved to bond with humans.  There are a lot of interesting experiments on the differences between wolves and dogs (your link is one).  This also explains why wolves never really become like dogs.  Even if you bottle raise a wolf pup from birth - it is still a wolf.  It is shy, powerful, not strongly bonded to humanity - it's not useful to a primitive human as a hunting partner.  It's hard to imagine primitive people starting with a wild wolf and selectively breeding - that is resource intensive and doesn't make sense in a survivalist society.  But if you start the process with an animal that is already partly domesticated through close association with human habitats - it's a bit easier.  To me it makes sense that they co-evolved.
> 
> 
> Dogs, But Not Wolves, Use Humans As Tools  (this one might be based on the one you linked to)
> 
> http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2015/09/why-dogs-turn-us-help
Click to expand...


There is some of what I view as psuedo-scientific dispute regarding the origin of dogs, led by those who see social goals rather than fact as the goal of research. Sadly, Europe and America have spent the last generation mal-educating people to the point that political impact rather than the discovery of fact are the primary imputes of virtually all university based research, Political goals are defined and all results MUST conform with the political agenda, the days of going where the facts lead are gone. We do not teach that facts are supreme, but rather that political and social goals are the primary duty of researchers.

My field of research deals with the movement of products through manufacturing and logistical processes. My Ph.D. is in supply chain management and I closely follow the work of my mentor, the late great Dr. Eli Goldratt. I am thus shielded from perversions that have infected most of the scientific community. Make no mistake though, we have entered a new dark age, science is the servant of of the leftist agenda in the West and must always conform, as heretics are dealt with harshly

It is sad that in the days of Mao, China was forced to conform all scientific research to the goals of the party. Now China has far more freedom of intellectual pursuit than the West, does, far more.  The Left has assumed the role of the Catholic Church in the days of Copernicus. 

So there are indeed those who carry water for the PETA agenda, but rarely can their research hold up to more than cursory examination.


----------



## Uncensored2008

Coyote said:


> [
> 
> As a side note - I have a friend who raises domesticated deer.  Unlike cattle or sheep they are still pretty wild, with a high flight ratio.  Fawns MUST be bottle raised or they are just like wild deer.  In selecting for more domestic traits, deer farmers are also coming up with white markings - like dogs, like horses, like cattle



So they breed for desired traits. This is what animal husbandry is all about.


----------



## Coyote

Uncensored2008 said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> [
> 
> As a side note - I have a friend who raises domesticated deer.  Unlike cattle or sheep they are still pretty wild, with a high flight ratio.  Fawns MUST be bottle raised or they are just like wild deer.  In selecting for more domestic traits, deer farmers are also coming up with white markings - like dogs, like horses, like cattle
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So they breed for desired traits. This is what animal husbandry is all about.
Click to expand...

Yup, but what I find interesting is the unintended traits that come along with the temperament selected for and it's across species.


----------



## Coyote

Uncensored2008 said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Uncensored2008 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Uncensored2008 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pogo said:
> 
> 
> 
> Human hubris, fucking up Nature as usual.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> DERP
> 
> There are no "natural" dogs, fucktard. Dogs are a creation of man.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yes and no....dogs co-evolved with humanity.  If you want to look at "natural" dogs - look at what are commonly called "village dogs" or "pariah dogs" or "street dogs".  The whole purebred dog thing is actually a creation of the Victorian era.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Nope.
> 
> Dogs were bred from wolves. Camp wolves were domesticated and using selective breeding ALL of the dogs that exist now were created.
> 
> {
> Dogs were just a loose category of wolves until around 15,000 years ago, when our ancestors tamed and began to manage them. We fed them, bred them, and spread them from continent to continent. While other wolf descendants died out, dogs grew into a new species. We invented the dog.
> 
> We didn't pick just any wolves for this project. We picked the ones that could help us and get along with us. Dogs are dumber than monkeys and other mammals in many ways, but they excel at one thing: interpreting human behavior. Three years ago, scientists tested this talent in wolves, adult dogs, puppies raised in households, and puppies raised in kennels. The wolves couldn't read humans well, but the puppies could—even the puppies raised in kennels. Through selection, we've hardwired human compatibility into dogs. We've made a species in our image.
> }
> Our creepiest genetic invention: the dog.
> 
> Now Slate is a Nazi hate site that spews the kind of shit that Pillowbite does, but they are right on the science part.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> There's some dispute with that actually.  Have you ever read Ray Coppinger's book on dogs?  It's really well worth the read and it (among other research) takes a different path on the domestication of dogs, one which in my view makes a lot of sense.  Domestication usually begins with a species that gradually evolves to live close to human habitats - the flight/fight response is suppressed.  Dogs evolved from a common wolf ancester - but they evolved, they weren't selectively bred until later.  They evolved as scavengers - a role they still have as ferals around the world.  Their jaws are weaker than any wolf, their instincts are different - unlike wolves they have evolved to bond with humans.  There are a lot of interesting experiments on the differences between wolves and dogs (your link is one).  This also explains why wolves never really become like dogs.  Even if you bottle raise a wolf pup from birth - it is still a wolf.  It is shy, powerful, not strongly bonded to humanity - it's not useful to a primitive human as a hunting partner.  It's hard to imagine primitive people starting with a wild wolf and selectively breeding - that is resource intensive and doesn't make sense in a survivalist society.  But if you start the process with an animal that is already partly domesticated through close association with human habitats - it's a bit easier.  To me it makes sense that they co-evolved.
> 
> 
> Dogs, But Not Wolves, Use Humans As Tools  (this one might be based on the one you linked to)
> 
> http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2015/09/why-dogs-turn-us-help
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> There is some of what I view as psuedo-scientific dispute regarding the origin of dogs, led by those who see social goals rather than fact as the goal of research. Sadly, Europe and America have spent the last generation mal-educating people to the point that political impact rather than the discovery of fact are the primary imputes of virtually all university based research, Political goals are defined and all results MUST conform with the political agenda, the days of going where the facts lead are gone. We do not teach that facts are supreme, but rather that political and social goals are the primary duty of researchers.
> 
> My field of research deals with the movement of products through manufacturing and logistical processes. My Ph.D. is in supply chain management and I closely follow the work of my mentor, the late great Dr. Eli Goldratt. I am thus shielded from perversions that have infected most of the scientific community. Make no mistake though, we have entered a new dark age, science is the servant of of the leftist agenda in the West and must always conform, as heretics are dealt with harshly
> 
> It is sad that in the days of Mao, China was forced to conform all scientific research to the goals of the party. Now China has far more freedom of intellectual pursuit than the West, does, far more.  The Left has assumed the role of the Catholic Church in the days of Copernicus.
> 
> So there are indeed those who carry water for the PETA agenda, but rarely can their research hold up to more than cursory examination.
Click to expand...


This actually has nothing to do with PETA, nor am I in any way a supporter of PETA.  Their goal is to end the existence of domestic animals.  I'm not sure why you are dragging politics into this at all.

My chosen field is animal behavior and the evolution of domestic animals. I'm also very interested in genetics and current research in these areas, have been for years.  If dogs are something you interested in you should check out that book.  It is not political


----------



## Coyote

Uncensored2008 said:


> IsaacNewton said:
> 
> 
> 
> [
> 
> There is a documentary somewhere where the Russians did a long experiment with caged wolves. Some of them almost never came to trust or work with humans, while others VERY quickly trusted humans and easily became domesticated. It has to do with the genetics of the wolves themselves, humans didn't breed anything into wolves 10,000 years ago. Some wolves were predisposed to form a symbiotic relationship with humans which was beneficial to both.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You are a very ignorant and uneducated dolt. You REALLY should take a night school class in the basics of science.
> 
> {
> The ancestral wolves that evolved into domestic dogs may have carried genetic mutations that made them socialise more readily with people. What’s more, the same genes cause excessive sociability in humans.
> 
> It was already known that even if wolves have been raised with humans from birth, they never become as close to people or look at them as often as dogs tend to.
> 
> Several years ago, Bridgett vonHoldt at Princeton University in New Jersey and her colleagues linked this “hypersociability” to a 28-gene stretch of the dog genome that includes canine versions of the genes responsible for Williams syndrome – a human disorder characterised by extreme sociability. However, they had no direct proof that these genes caused it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> To find out whether they do, vonHoldt and her team tested the behaviour of 18 domestic dogs and 10 wolves, all of which had been raised identically with constant human contact. Each animal was scored for its hypersociability towards humans. As expected, the dogs scored higher than the wolves.
> 
> The researchers then sequenced the key region of each animal’s genome in fine detail and searched for structural variations – deletions or insertions of genetic material – that seemed to match well with their social behaviour. They found four, including two in genes called _GTF2I_ and _GTF2IRD1_. These genes are known to cause the hypersociability involved in Williams syndrome in humans, and _GTF2I _has also been shown to cause hypersociability in mice.}
> 
> 
> First dogs may have been extremely sociable wolves
> 
> Science, you miserable troll, is not the mindless hate you read on DailKOS, but rather actual study.
Click to expand...


You realize those same mutations are what allowed those ancestral wolves to hang out in human habitations and scavenge, to successfully exploit a new niche?


----------



## Uncensored2008

Coyote said:


> [
> Yup, but what I find interesting is the unintended traits that come along with the temperament selected for and it's across species.



Selective breeding is a tricky thing. You get the whole genetic package from the breeding pairs. This brings some unwanted attributes along with the desired ones.


----------



## Uncensored2008

Coyote said:


> [
> 
> This actually has nothing to do with PETA, nor am I in any way a supporter of PETA.  Their goal is to end the existence of domestic animals.  I'm not sure why you are dragging politics into this at all.
> 
> My chosen field is animal behavior and the evolution of domestic animals. I'm also very interested in genetics and current research in these areas, have been for years.  If dogs are something you interested in you should check out that book.  It is not political



I bring politics in because of the OP. 

But thank you, I will read the book you suggest.


----------



## Compost

Coyote said:


> Compost said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> Anyhow, moving along (and ignoring the weirdos - lol).
> 
> A friend of mine got the cutest little Westy recently.  I love those cute little things.  She puts a little barrette in her hair.  Her name is Elvira.  If I was to get a dog, I would give consideration to a Westy because of this dog.  SOOOO adorable.  Getting a dog right now is just not feasible for me though, I'm too busy to be there for it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Westies are spunky!  It's a terrier thing.  I've heard from Westie owners that they are very demanding about attention.  They will not be ignored!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> I'm kind of a hard core herding dog enthusiast, but currently have two "oddball" dogs I never thought I'd have.  One is an Akita mix, the other is a terrier (maybe rat terrier?) - border collie type mix.  And damn...that terrier side, it's the dark force   He critters so intensely NOTHING can break the concentration!
Click to expand...


It's a fascinating and curious thing about mixed breeds.  I read somewhere that the part of the mix that is most evident physically, tends to also be the dominant personality/temperment trait(s) as well.  I used to walk other people's dogs for a living.  One of my favorite customers was a Lab/Akita mix.  She had the prick ears and the curled tail of an Akita.  Indeed she had the intensity of the Akita and very little of the goofiness of the Lab.  One day we were walking and a squirrel  ran right under her nose.  She picked it up.  I told her to drop it.  She gave me a look that said, "sorry, no can do".  She bit down and dropped the now dead squirrel and moved on.

On the other hand, I once had a little dog of unknown ancestry.  Her appearance strongly suggested some terrier, though.  One day in the yard, a ground squirrel happened by.  She grabbed it.  I told her to drop it.  She did.  She was such a good girl.  When a puppy she'd dig in the yard.  It only took two times of banishing her after digging to get her to stop.  That trainability is so unterrier.  LOL


----------

