# Why are soldiers automatically considered heroes?



## Smash_Hits

I really, really dislike Memorial Day. Not because I hate the military (not true), nor because I don't think soldiers can't be heroes (also not true), but because I hate the spewing of jingoistic "all soldiers are heroes and they protect our freedom," by all parts of the political spectrum. Now, I want to make it clear that I do not believe soldiers can't be heroes; for example, I consider JFK to be one of the greatest men this country has seen, partly because of his actions in the military. What I am asking, is why all soldiers are automatically heroes? They certainly don't all earn it (US soldiers 'killed Afghan civilians for sport and collected fingers as trophies' | World news | The Guardian). And don't say it is because they are protecting our freedom, because frankly, they aren't right now. There were wars where they were, but our current conflicts are not intended to protect us.


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## dblack

I think the point is to acknowledge that everyone who signs up for military service is committed to risking their lives, potentially heroically, for the rest of us. Neither our piss-poor leadership nor the idiotic wars they get us into diminish that commitment.


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## Colin

Smash_Hits said:


> I really, really dislike Memorial Day. Not because I hate the military (not true), nor because I don't think soldiers can't be heroes (also not true), but because I hate the spewing of jingoistic "all soldiers are heroes and they protect our freedom," by all parts of the political spectrum. Now, I want to make it clear that I do not believe soldiers can't be heroes; for example, I consider JFK to be one of the greatest men this country has seen, partly because of his actions in the military. What I am asking, is why all soldiers are automatically heroes? They certainly don't all earn it (US soldiers 'killed Afghan civilians for sport and collected fingers as trophies' | World news | The Guardian). And don't say it is because they are protecting our freedom, because frankly, they aren't right now. There were wars where they were, but our current conflicts are not intended to protect us.



Read my sig line dumbo!


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## RetiredGySgt

Smash_Hits said:


> I really, really dislike Memorial Day. Not because I hate the military (not true), nor because I don't think soldiers can't be heroes (also not true), but because I hate the spewing of jingoistic "all soldiers are heroes and they protect our freedom," by all parts of the political spectrum. Now, I want to make it clear that I do not believe soldiers can't be heroes; for example, I consider JFK to be one of the greatest men this country has seen, partly because of his actions in the military. What I am asking, is why all soldiers are automatically heroes? They certainly don't all earn it (US soldiers 'killed Afghan civilians for sport and collected fingers as trophies' | World news | The Guardian). And don't say it is because they are protecting our freedom, because frankly, they aren't right now. There were wars where they were, but our current conflicts are not intended to protect us.



People IN the military do not proclaim all military people are heroes. When Politicians do it they are just mouthing words for votes. BUT every single service member has signed up with the understanding that any time during their service they can be thrown into combat, they can be killed while training or be killed in some other fashion. They have AGREED to sacrifice their time and possibly their health or life to serve the ENTIRE Country.


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## Truthseeker420

I agree with RetiredGaySgt


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## eots

dblack said:


> I think the point is to acknowledge that everyone who signs up for military service is committed to risking their lives, potentially heroically, for the rest of us. Neither our piss-poor leadership nor the idiotic wars they get us into diminish that commitment.



I used to do that just so people could eat sea food....just sayin


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## eots

RetiredGySgt said:


> Smash_Hits said:
> 
> 
> 
> I really, really dislike Memorial Day. Not because I hate the military (not true), nor because I don't think soldiers can't be heroes (also not true), but because I hate the spewing of jingoistic "all soldiers are heroes and they protect our freedom," by all parts of the political spectrum. Now, I want to make it clear that I do not believe soldiers can't be heroes; for example, I consider JFK to be one of the greatest men this country has seen, partly because of his actions in the military. What I am asking, is why all soldiers are automatically heroes? They certainly don't all earn it (US soldiers 'killed Afghan civilians for sport and collected fingers as trophies' | World news | The Guardian). And don't say it is because they are protecting our freedom, because frankly, they aren't right now. There were wars where they were, but our current conflicts are not intended to protect us.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> People IN the military do not proclaim all military people are heroes. When Politicians do it they are just mouthing words for votes. BUT every single service member has signed up with the understanding that any time during their service they can be thrown into combat, they can be killed while training or be killed in some other fashion. They have AGREED to sacrifice their time and possibly their health or life to serve the ENTIRE Country.
Click to expand...


and the paycheck and benefits... just sayin


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## RetiredGySgt

eots said:


> RetiredGySgt said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Smash_Hits said:
> 
> 
> 
> I really, really dislike Memorial Day. Not because I hate the military (not true), nor because I don't think soldiers can't be heroes (also not true), but because I hate the spewing of jingoistic "all soldiers are heroes and they protect our freedom," by all parts of the political spectrum. Now, I want to make it clear that I do not believe soldiers can't be heroes; for example, I consider JFK to be one of the greatest men this country has seen, partly because of his actions in the military. What I am asking, is why all soldiers are automatically heroes? They certainly don't all earn it (US soldiers 'killed Afghan civilians for sport and collected fingers as trophies' | World news | The Guardian). And don't say it is because they are protecting our freedom, because frankly, they aren't right now. There were wars where they were, but our current conflicts are not intended to protect us.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> People IN the military do not proclaim all military people are heroes. When Politicians do it they are just mouthing words for votes. BUT every single service member has signed up with the understanding that any time during their service they can be thrown into combat, they can be killed while training or be killed in some other fashion. They have AGREED to sacrifice their time and possibly their health or life to serve the ENTIRE Country.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> and the paycheck and benefits... just sayin
Click to expand...


The pay is less then they could make in Civilian sector. And a large number of military personnel serve in a career path that has nearly no civilian counterpart. Except mercenaries there is not a lot of career transfer for Line Infantry, Or combat arms specialties.

The benefits require one to serve 20 years with no promise that A) the job won't make that impossible, B) the career path won't be phased out, C) Promotions won't be stagnant, forcing one out for failing to progress in rank,D)Injury suffered forces one out but does not raise to the level of getting a medical retirement. Not to mention for those 20 years you risk your life and health with restricted rights, constant deployments and training exercises that take you away from your family, moving every 2 to 3 years sometimes to foreign Countries where your family can not go or across the Country.

Retirement now is 40 percent of base pay. With Tricare for medical coverage. Tricare has costs and hurtles associated with it. There is no Dental coverage for family while serving and no dental for anyone once retired.

Most Vets do not serve to retirement.


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## eots

bet thats not how recruiters sell it


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## zzzz

Definition of HERO: an illustrious warrior, a person admired for his achievements and noble qualities or a person who shows great courage.

I think the word hero has become a catch all phrase for people. It used to be used less frequently and in special circumstance so the meaning has become diluted.

Memorial Day is a day to pay tribute to those who have fallen while serving in the Armed Forces. They gave their lives so that we could be have life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. There is nothing greater than a citizen can give, than to give their own life in the defense of our nation. Sure some of those soldiers may have not been "good" guys but in the end they paid ultimate price defending us. Does that sacrifice make all of the fallen hero's? 

In my book a hero is someone who has gone beyond the call of duty and performed an act of courage, an act that under normal circumstances would not be tried. A soldier throwing himself on a grenade to save his comrades is a hero. A soldier running out into intense machine gun fire without regard to himself can be a hero. there are many instances of heroism that occur still today in Afghanistan. But to serve and die in the service does not qualify as heroism in my book. All the fallen are honored on this day, Memorial Day, for that sacrifice and though they might not be heroes in my book, that honor is rightly deserved and should be respected for it is through their sacrifice that I am able to express my opinion here.


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## jillian

Smash_Hits said:


> I really, really dislike Memorial Day. Not because I hate the military (not true), nor because I don't think soldiers can't be heroes (also not true), but because I hate the spewing of jingoistic "all soldiers are heroes and they protect our freedom," by all parts of the political spectrum. Now, I want to make it clear that I do not believe soldiers can't be heroes; for example, I consider JFK to be one of the greatest men this country has seen, partly because of his actions in the military. What I am asking, is why all soldiers are automatically heroes? They certainly don't all earn it (US soldiers 'killed Afghan civilians for sport and collected fingers as trophies' | World news | The Guardian). And don't say it is because they are protecting our freedom, because frankly, they aren't right now. There were wars where they were, but our current conflicts are not intended to protect us.



you can agree or disagree with the individual actions of government in relation to its use of the military. but most people don't sign up to do something that could, just for doing their job, get them dead.

kind of a silly question, imo. childish sounding.


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## California Girl

jillian said:


> Smash_Hits said:
> 
> 
> 
> I really, really dislike Memorial Day. Not because I hate the military (not true), nor because I don't think soldiers can't be heroes (also not true), but because I hate the spewing of jingoistic "all soldiers are heroes and they protect our freedom," by all parts of the political spectrum. Now, I want to make it clear that I do not believe soldiers can't be heroes; for example, I consider JFK to be one of the greatest men this country has seen, partly because of his actions in the military. What I am asking, is why all soldiers are automatically heroes? They certainly don't all earn it (US soldiers 'killed Afghan civilians for sport and collected fingers as trophies' | World news | The Guardian). And don't say it is because they are protecting our freedom, because frankly, they aren't right now. There were wars where they were, but our current conflicts are not intended to protect us.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> you can agree or disagree with the individual actions of government in relation to its use of the military. but most people don't sign up to do something that could, just for doing their job, get them dead.
> 
> kind of a silly question, imo. childish sounding.
Click to expand...


^^^^ 'nuf said.


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## Big Black Dog

Sorry you dislike Memorial Day so much.  It is a day set aside to honor those that have died to give you the freedom that you enjoy.  Who could not be grateful for that?


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## WorldWatcher

RetiredGySgt said:


> People IN the military do not proclaim all military people are heroes. When Politicians do it they are just mouthing words for votes. BUT every single service member has signed up with the understanding that any time during their service they can be thrown into combat, they can be killed while training or be killed in some other fashion. They have AGREED to sacrifice their time and possibly their health or life to serve the ENTIRE Country.











>>>>


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## mudwhistle

Smash_Hits said:


> I really, really dislike Memorial Day. Not because I hate the military (not true), nor because I don't think soldiers can't be heroes (also not true), but because I hate the spewing of jingoistic "all soldiers are heroes and they protect our freedom," by all parts of the political spectrum. Now, I want to make it clear that I do not believe soldiers can't be heroes; for example, I consider JFK to be one of the greatest men this country has seen, partly because of his actions in the military. What I am asking, is why all soldiers are automatically heroes? They certainly don't all earn it (US soldiers 'killed Afghan civilians for sport and collected fingers as trophies' | World news | The Guardian). And don't say it is because they are protecting our freedom, because frankly, they aren't right now. There were wars where they were, but our current conflicts are not intended to protect us.



Not everyone can be a hero, yet anyone can be one. Audie Murphy was a prime example. 

As long as they wear that uniform their lives are at risk. I consider them to be heroes just for staying in. Especially because of all of the repeated deployments.


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## Publius1787

Smash_Hits said:


> I really, really dislike Memorial Day. Not because I hate the military (not true), nor because I don't think soldiers can't be heroes (also not true), but because I hate the spewing of jingoistic "all soldiers are heroes and they protect our freedom," by all parts of the political spectrum. Now, I want to make it clear that I do not believe soldiers can't be heroes; for example, I consider JFK to be one of the greatest men this country has seen, partly because of his actions in the military. What I am asking, is why all soldiers are automatically heroes? They certainly don't all earn it (US soldiers 'killed Afghan civilians for sport and collected fingers as trophies' | World news | The Guardian). And don't say it is because they are protecting our freedom, because frankly, they aren't right now. There were wars where they were, but our current conflicts are not intended to protect us.



Because they give up their liberty to protect yours in a job that your not willing to do. THE SHEER EXISTENCE OF OUR MILITARY PROTECTS OUR FREEDOM 24/7!


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## AquaAthena

dblack said:


> I think the point is to acknowledge that everyone who signs up for military service is committed to risking their lives, potentially heroically, for the rest of us. Neither our piss-poor leadership nor the idiotic wars they get us into diminish that commitment.



 Our soldiers are heroes because they are committed to risking their lives for their nation. They are special, as are the men and women of any occupation, whose goals are the same.


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## The Gadfly

I've never yet met a combat veteran who considered himself a hero; that includes men whose decorations and the citations for them say otherwise. Every one of them, however, will tell you about others they think were/are heroes. Those who walk into hell, and by luck or the grace of God walk out again, are humbled by the experience.


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## sparky

The Gadfly said:


> I've never yet met a combat veteran who considered himself a hero; that includes men whose decorations and the citations for them say otherwise. Every one of them, however, will tell you about others they think were/are heroes. Those who walk into hell, and by luck or the grace of God walk out again, are humbled by the experience.




My dad, who fought in the battle of the buldge, still hangs the flag out faithfully every memorial day

he claims the _real _hero's didn't come home


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## Liability

Nobody says all servicemen are, on that basis alone, "heroes."

It is a stupid and baseless talking point on which to rest an OP.

Benedict Arnold.  William Calley.  Nidal Hasan.

There are obviously exceptions to ANY general rule or figure of speech.


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## The T

Smash_Hits said:


> I really, really dislike Memorial Day. Not because I hate the military (not true), nor because I don't think soldiers can't be heroes (also not true), but because I hate the spewing of jingoistic "all soldiers are heroes and they protect our freedom," by all parts of the political spectrum. Now, I want to make it clear that I do not believe soldiers can't be heroes; for example, I consider JFK to be one of the greatest men this country has seen, partly because of his actions in the military. What I am asking, is why all soldiers are automatically heroes? They certainly don't all earn it (US soldiers 'killed Afghan civilians for sport and collected fingers as trophies' | World news | The Guardian). And don't say it is because they are protecting our freedom, because frankly, they aren't right now. There were wars where they were, but our current conflicts are not intended to protect us.


 
Tell us? What part of your liberty don't you like? Maybe we can tailor which parts of liberty they protect?


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## MikeK

Publius1787 said:


> Because they give up their liberty to protect yours in a job that your not willing to do.


That is presumptuous and it draws on the kind of romantic jingoism referenced in the opening message.  If what you've suggested were universally true there would be no need for the kind of inducements the military offers to attract enlistees.  



> THE SHEER EXISTENCE OF OUR MILITARY PROTECTS OUR FREEDOM 24/7!


That circumstance does not automatically confer hero status on everyone who for one reason or other becomes a member of the armed forces.


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## The Gadfly

MikeK said:


> Publius1787 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Because they give up their liberty to protect yours in a job that your not willing to do.
> 
> 
> 
> That is presumptuous and it draws on the kind of romantic jingoism referenced in the opening message.  If what you've suggested were universally true there would be no need for the kind of inducements the military offers to attract enlistees.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> THE SHEER EXISTENCE OF OUR MILITARY PROTECTS OUR FREEDOM 24/7!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> That circumstance does not automatically confer hero status on everyone who for one reason or other becomes a member of the armed forces.
Click to expand...


Maybe not, but it also does not make them a legitimate object for contempt and scorn from a certain part of the political spectrum.


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## Trajan

Obama, is a hero.


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## Wicked Jester

The Gadfly said:


> I've never yet met a combat veteran who considered himself a hero; that includes men whose decorations and the citations for them say otherwise. Every one of them, however, will tell you about others they think were/are heroes. Those who walk into hell, and by luck or the grace of God walk out again, are humbled by the experience.


The true hero's are those we are honoring and remembering this weekend.

Obviously, there are some true idiots up here who don't seem to understand that.....To those asshats, it's nothing but a free day off (for those who actually WORK) and a BBQ.


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## MikeK

My draft status in 1956 was 1-A, so there was little doubt that I would be drafted.  That, combined with *the macho sense of warrior virtue* instilled in me by the reputation earned by the Marines in WW-II and Korea, which was still fresh in the collective mind of America, is why I chose to join the Marines rather than wait to be drafted into the Army.  

Military service back then was not an option for able-bodied young men.  It was an obligation.  Something that came naturally -- unless one was 4-F or had unusual family obligations.  

I joined for four years rather than two, not because of exceptional patriotism but because I wanted to go to Japan where my cousin was stationed and had written to me about how great the Liberty was.  And while I never managed to hook up with him I did enjoy the time I spent in Japan and Okinawa during the first two years, but the second two years that I spent on Camp LeJeune made me regret signing up for four instead of two.  I came to despise military life and I can say without reservation that the day they handed me my DD-214 was one of the happiest days in my memory.  

I do not consider myself a "hero" by any stretch of imagination.  And I regard the rather patronizing cliche, _"Thank you for your service to our country,"_ to mean, _better you than me._  Briefly stated I think it's meaningless, inappropriate, redundant bullshit.   

I think of my father and an uncle as heroes because they both enlisted in the Army right after Pearl Harbor was bombed, so they knew damn well they were going to war.  I had no such awareness.  

I was very fortunate to be in the Corps from 1956 to 1960, which was peacetime and I have no regrets about that.  But if for some reason (beyond my ability to imagine) I would have liked military service and had "shipped over" (re-enlisted) and ended up fighting in Vietnam I would have been one very pissed off and resentful trooper.  Because I didn't join the Corps to be used in that kind of wasteful, unnecessary, unjustifiable and stupidly aggressive killing and risk of death or disfigurement.  I joined for the presumed purpose of defending my country against aggression.

So I became an active protester.  And I can unequivocally state that if I had sons of military age during that era I would have sent them to Canada rather than allow them to be wasted in the crime that was our aggression in Vietnam.  And if I had sons today who wanted to join the military I would do all I could to steer them to the Air Force or the Coast Guard.  Because I have absolutely no faith or trust in the kind of corrupt sonsabitches who are in a position to send America's sons and brothers to kill and die for no better reason than corporate interests.  

The idea that someone is a hero simply by being a member of today's military is utter nonsense.  It is the wishful thinking of the indoctrinated militaristic mind and nothing more.


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## MikeK

The Gadfly said:


> Maybe not, but it also does not make them a legitimate object for contempt and scorn from a certain part of the political spectrum.


Which _"certain part of the political spectrum"_ are you alluding to?  Please refer us to a specific example so we know what you are talking about.


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## The Gadfly

Mike,
Thank you for serving our country.....and when I tell you (or anyone else) that, I am NOT being "patronizing", or saying "better you than me", *because I have been there, done that*. 

I joined up in 1962, before I went to college, so by the time things heated up in Vietnam, I had finished my active obligation, and was still in the Reserve. I could have avoided Vietnam; all I had to do was not re-up and apply for OCS. I could have let some kid with less experience do the fighting (and maybe the dying) for me, but you know what-after all I've been through, I am damn glad I didn't, and I'd do it again. I'd do it again, because it would not have felt right to do otherwise, not to me. Some call me a "war criminal" for that. Some say I "must love war". Bullshit. I hate war, but there's something I hate more-the idea of "peace at any price". So go ahead and call me an "indoctrinated militarist", or whatever else you damn well choose; I don't care, and I've been called worse. I know what I was fighting for, and I don't need or want anyone else telling me how I "should" feel about it.

By the way, I am a 'three-time volunteer", but I am no hero,  never thought I was, or wanted to be. I am a survivor. You want heroes, go look on the Wall; you can find their names right there.


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## The Gadfly

MikeK said:


> The Gadfly said:
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe not, but it also does not make them a legitimate object for contempt and scorn from a certain part of the political spectrum.
> 
> 
> 
> Which _"certain part of the political spectrum"_ are you alluding to?  Please refer us to a specific example so we know what you are talking about.
Click to expand...


That would be the spitters, cursers and VC flag wavers. I think you know what "part of the spectrum" they belong to, but hell, don't take my word for it, ask them.

Now, I'm done with this discussion. Any and all of you who don't like what Monday is all about, can continue it, while those of us who happen to give a damn about honoring our dead can do so on the Memorial Day thread, hopefully without hearing any more political claptrap. That is all.


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## Trajan

MikeK said:


> My draft status in 1956 was 1-A, so there was little doubt that I would be drafted.  That, combined with *the macho sense of warrior virtue* instilled in me by the reputation earned by the Marines in WW-II and Korea, which was still fresh in the collective mind of America, is why I chose to join the Marines rather than wait to be drafted into the Army.
> 
> Military service back then was not an option for able-bodied young men.  It was an obligation.  Something that came naturally -- unless one was 4-F or had unusual family obligations.
> 
> I joined for four years rather than two, not because of exceptional patriotism but because I wanted to go to Japan where my cousin was stationed and had written to me about how great the Liberty was.  And while I never managed to hook up with him I did enjoy the time I spent in Japan and Okinawa during the first two years, but the second two years that I spent on Camp LeJeune made me regret signing up for four instead of two.  I came to despise military life and I can say without reservation that the day they handed me my DD-214 was one of the happiest days in my memory.
> 
> I do not consider myself a "hero" by any stretch of imagination.  And I regard the rather patronizing cliche, _"Thank you for your service to our country,"_ to mean, _better you than me._  Briefly stated I think it's meaningless, inappropriate, redundant bullshit.
> 
> I think of my father and an uncle as heroes because they both enlisted in the Army right after Pearl Harbor was bombed, so they knew damn well they were going to war.  I had no such awareness.
> 
> I was very fortunate to be in the Corps from 1956 to 1960, which was peacetime and I have no regrets about that.  But if for some reason (beyond my ability to imagine) I would have liked military service and had "shipped over" (reinlisted) and ended up fighting in Vietnam I would have been one very pissed off and resentful trooper.  Because I didn't join the Corps to be used in that kind of wasteful, unnecessary, unjustifiable and stupidly aggressive killing and risk of death or disfigurement.  I joined for the presumed purpose of defending my country against aggression.
> 
> So I became an active protester.  And I can unequivocally state that if I had sons of military age during that era I would have sent them to Canada rather than allow them to be wasted in the crime that was our aggression in Vietnam.  And if I had sons today who wanted to join the military I would do all I could to steer them to the Air Force or the Coast Guard.  Because I have absolutely no faith or trust in the kind of corrupt sonsabitches who are in a position to send America's sons and brothers to kill and die for no better reason than corporate interests.
> 
> The idea that someone is a hero simply by being a member of today's military is utter nonsense.  It is the wishful thinking of the indoctrinated militaristic mind and nothing more.



I am sorry you became sour on the military Mike, *shrugs*, but guess what, in 1936 I am sure you could have founds folks saying same and along came ww2. 

As far as "indoctrinated militaristic mind and nothing more."...no, not so, there is 2.5 wars on and I know from experience  there are at lest 6-7 other spots on the globe where American forces are at  risk,  in uniform and I am not going to split hairs on whether the guys hand I shake was/is an infantryman or a remf/pogue, I never do..... Just because you've spun out doesn't make the statement true or not. 

It is what it is and we are all part of the same hypocrisy, some just seem to handle it better.


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## lehr

Smash_Hits said:


> I really, really dislike Memorial Day. Not because I hate the military (not true), nor because I don't think soldiers can't be heroes (also not true), but because I hate the spewing of jingoistic "all soldiers are heroes and they protect our freedom," by all parts of the political spectrum. Now, I want to make it clear that I do not believe soldiers can't be heroes; for example, I consider JFK to be one of the greatest men this country has seen, partly because of his actions in the military. What I am asking, is why all soldiers are automatically heroes? They certainly don't all earn it (US soldiers 'killed Afghan civilians for sport and collected fingers as trophies' | World news | The Guardian). And don't say it is because they are protecting our freedom, because frankly, they aren't right now. There were wars where they were, but our current conflicts are not intended to protect us.



i do not know any soldiers who would call themselves - (heroes)


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## Warrior102

Smash_Hits said:


> I really, really dislike Memorial Day. Not because I hate the military (not true), nor because I don't think soldiers can't be heroes (also not true), but because I hate the spewing of jingoistic "all soldiers are heroes and they protect our freedom," by all parts of the political spectrum. Now, I want to make it clear that I do not believe soldiers can't be heroes; for example, I consider JFK to be one of the greatest men this country has seen, partly because of his actions in the military. What I am asking, is why all soldiers are automatically heroes? They certainly don't all earn it (US soldiers 'killed Afghan civilians for sport and collected fingers as trophies' | World news | The Guardian). And don't say it is because they are protecting our freedom, because frankly, they aren't right now. There were wars where they were, but our current conflicts are not intended to protect us.



Who said they're automatically heroes? 

Been to the brig in Norfolk lately? Lots of vets - not too many heroes.

There are good people/bad people in all walks of life. You haven't figured this out yet? 

Sad that you "dislike" Memorial Day. 

I suggest you visit a national cemetery tomorrow and talk to some of the families that are visiting there.

Maybe that'll change your viewpoint.

I plan on being there to simply show my respect. I don't need an explanation.


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## uscitizen

dblack said:


> I think the point is to acknowledge that everyone who signs up for military service is committed to risking their lives, potentially heroically, for the rest of us. Neither our piss-poor leadership nor the idiotic wars they get us into diminish that commitment.



Depends if your father is a senator or somesuch or not.


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## sparky

Trajan said:


> It is what it is and we are all part of the same hypocrisy, some just seem to handle it better.



how uplifting.......


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## JBeukema

dblack said:


> I think the point is to acknowledge that everyone who signs up for military service is committed to risking their lives, potentially heroically, for the rest of us. Neither our piss-poor leadership nor the idiotic wars they get us into diminish that commitment.


When was the last time out military was used to protect us?


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## JBeukema

RetiredGySgt said:


> The benefits require one to serve 20 years with no promise that A) the job won't make that impossible, B) the career path won't be phased out, C) Promotions won't be stagnant, forcing one out for failing to progress in rank,D)Injury suffered forces one out but does not raise to the level of getting a medical retirement.



The same complaints can be made about just about any retirement package


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## Warrior102

JBeukema said:


> dblack said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think the point is to acknowledge that everyone who signs up for military service is committed to risking their lives, potentially heroically, for the rest of us. Neither our piss-poor leadership nor the idiotic wars they get us into diminish that commitment.
> 
> 
> 
> When was the last time out military was used to protect us?
Click to expand...


So you feel the Department of Defense has been inept how many years now? 

Wow....

Amazing.

You should seriously be ashamed. 

And ungrateful.


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## JBeukema

Liability said:


> Nobody says all servicemen are, on that basis alone, "heroes."




Yes, they do. And questioning that results in censorship by the mods.

Just ask Echo

http://www.usmessageboard.com/the-romper-room/169273-jbs-thoughts-about-our-vets.html


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## JBeukema

Warrior102 said:


> JBeukema said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> dblack said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think the point is to acknowledge that everyone who signs up for military service is committed to risking their lives, potentially heroically, for the rest of us. Neither our piss-poor leadership nor the idiotic wars they get us into diminish that commitment.
> 
> 
> 
> When was the last time out military was used to protect us?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> So you feel the Department of Defense has been inept how many years now?
Click to expand...


No, you're just a dishonest fool.

The military has been used against the American people in violation of posse comitatus and has been long used, not to protect the interests of the American people, but of the monied interests.


> You should seriously be ashamed.



Why? For speaking the truth?





> And ungrateful.


----------



## Warrior102

JBeukema said:


> Liability said:
> 
> 
> 
> Nobody says all servicemen are, on that basis alone, "heroes."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, they do. And questioning that results in censorship by the mods.
> 
> Just ask Echo
> 
> http://www.usmessageboard.com/the-romper-room/169273-jbs-thoughts-about-our-vets.html
Click to expand...


Maybe this will help you out - http://www.usmessageboard.com/3698277-post32.html


----------



## JBeukema

Warrior102 said:


> JBeukema said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Liability said:
> 
> 
> 
> Nobody says all servicemen are, on that basis alone, "heroes."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, they do. And questioning that results in censorship by the mods.
> 
> Just ask Echo
> 
> http://www.usmessageboard.com/the-romper-room/169273-jbs-thoughts-about-our-vets.html
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Maybe this will help you out - http://www.usmessageboard.com/3698277-post32.html
Click to expand...





JBeukema said:


> If a man is honourable, then respect and honour him for his character.  To say I should thank or honour every man with a gun just because he has  a gun and a uniform is bullshit. Not everyone in the military is  honourable and not every war or order is just.



The very existence of the other thread proves the OP's point.


----------



## Warrior102

JBeukema said:


> Warrior102 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JBeukema said:
> 
> 
> 
> When was the last time out military was used to protect us?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So you feel the Department of Defense has been inept how many years now?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No, you're just a dishonest fool.
> 
> The military has been used against the American people in violation of posse comitatus and has been long used, not to protect the interests of the American people, but of the monied interests.
> 
> 
> 
> You should seriously be ashamed.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Why? For speaking the truth?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And ungrateful.
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


You're comments are pretty un-cool my friend. It's obvious you dislike vets. That's your pathetic choice.

Thankfully you live in a country where you're allowed to voice your pitiful points of view. 

Too bad Americans have to tolerate folks like you. But, after putting up with Westboro Baptist Church lunatics at so many funerals I have attended in honor of our fallen vets, I guess I can tolerate little turds like you. 

God bless ya son. 

And may God bless America.


----------



## HUGGY

Smash_Hits said:


> I really, really dislike Memorial Day. Not because I hate the military (not true), nor because I don't think soldiers can't be heroes (also not true), but because I hate the spewing of jingoistic "all soldiers are heroes and they protect our freedom," by all parts of the political spectrum. Now, I want to make it clear that I do not believe soldiers can't be heroes; for example, I consider JFK to be one of the greatest men this country has seen, partly because of his actions in the military. What I am asking, is why all soldiers are automatically heroes? They certainly don't all earn it (US soldiers 'killed Afghan civilians for sport and collected fingers as trophies' | World news | The Guardian). And don't say it is because they are protecting our freedom, because frankly, they aren't right now. There were wars where they were, but our current conflicts are not intended to protect us.



JFK similar to you was a fucking idiot that nearly got us all killed.  He was one of the worst presidents ever.


----------



## Two Thumbs

Smash_Hits said:


> I really, really dislike Memorial Day. Not because I hate the military (not true), nor because I don't think soldiers can't be heroes (also not true), but because I hate the spewing of jingoistic "all soldiers are heroes and they protect our freedom," by all parts of the political spectrum. Now, I want to make it clear that I do not believe soldiers can't be heroes; for example, I consider JFK to be one of the greatest men this country has seen, partly because of his actions in the military. What I am asking, is why all soldiers are automatically heroes? They certainly don't all earn it (US soldiers 'killed Afghan civilians for sport and collected fingers as trophies' | World news | The Guardian). And don't say it is because they are protecting our freedom, because frankly, they aren't right now. There were wars where they were, but our current conflicts are not intended to protect us.



I have now idea.  Maybe people simply want to be respectful, and know that moments like you linked are rare and put out there by people that don't give a crap about any thing beyond "If it bleeds, it leads."


----------



## JBeukema

Warrior102 said:


> It's obvious you dislike vets.


It's clear you're just an ignorant troll. I neither like nor dislike  'vets'. 'Verts' is a huge group of persons, some likeable and some not-  some honourable and some not.


Unlike you, I judge people as individuals. Some people are honourable  and some are not. Some wars are justified and some are not. Some actions  are acceptable and some are not.

You, however, attack me via negrep for judging men for their own characters and actions instead of painting with a broad brush


			
				Warrior102 said:
			
		

> Hi, you have received -7 reputation points from Warrior102.
> Reputation was given for *this* post.
> 
> Comment:
> Move to Vietnam chimp
> 
> Regards,
> Warrior102
> 
> Note: This is an automated message.


 

Interesting that you bring up VietNam




JBeukema said:


> Military intelligence office K. Milton Osborne witnessed the following use of torture:
> _"The use of the insertion of the 6-inch dowel into the canal of  one  of my detainee's ears, and the tapping through the brain until dead.   The starvation to death (in a cage), of a Vietnamese woman who was   suspected of being part of the local political education cadre in one of   the local villages ... The use of electronic gear such as sealed   telephones attached to ... both both the women's vaginas and men's   testicles [to] shock them into submission."_[12]
> 
> 
> 
> Phoenix Program - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Click to expand...

 




JBeukema said:


> Lieutenant Vincent Okamoto, an intelligence-liaison officer for the Phoenix Program for two months in 1968 and a recipient of the Distinguished Service Cross said the following:[13][14]
> &#8220; The problem was, how do you find the people on the blacklist?   It's not like you had their address and telephone number. The normal   procedure would be to go into a village and just grab someone and say,   'Where's Nguyen so-and-so?' Half the time the people were so afraid they   would not say anything. Then a Phoenix team would take the informant, put a sandbag over his head, poke out two holes so he could see, put commo wire   around his neck like a long leash, and walk him through the village  and  say, 'When we go by Nguyen's house scratch your head.' Then that  night  Phoenix would come back, knock on the door, and say, 'April Fool, motherfucker.'   Whoever answered the door would get wasted. As far as they were   concerned whoever answered was a Communist, including family members.   Sometimes they'd come back to camp with ears to prove that they killed   people. &#8221;





> Thankfully you live in a country where you're allowed to voice your pitiful points of view.



For now. We'll see how long that lasts. Today, America sets up 'Free  Speech Zones' for dissenters- implying that the rest of the nation,  outside that little area, is not a Free Speech zone.





> Too bad Americans have to tolerate folks like you.



Yes, too bad there are people to demand the truth and hold this nation to a higher standard...

You are filth


----------



## Warrior102

JBeukema said:


> Warrior102 said:
> 
> 
> 
> It's obvious you dislike vets.
> 
> 
> 
> It's clear you're just an ignorant troll. I neither like nor dislike  'vets'. 'Verts' is a huge group of persons, some likeable and some not-  some honourable and some not.
> 
> 
> Unlike you, I judge people as individuals. Some people are honourable  and some are not. Some wars are justified and some are not. Some actions  are acceptable and some are not.
> 
> You, however, attack me via negrep for judging men for their own characters and actions instead of painting with a broad brush
> 
> 
> 
> Warrior102 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hi, you have received -7 reputation points from Warrior102.
> Reputation was given for *this* post.
> 
> Comment:
> Move to Vietnam chimp
> 
> Regards,
> Warrior102
> 
> Note: This is an automated message.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Interesting that you bring up VietNam
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thankfully you live in a country where you're allowed to voice your pitiful points of view.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> For now. We'll see how long that lasts. Today, America sets up 'Free  Speech Zones' for dissenters- implying that the rest of the nation,  outside that little area, is not a Free Speech zone.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Too bad Americans have to tolerate folks like you.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yes, too bad there are people to demand the truth and hold this nation to a higher standard...
> 
> You are filth
Click to expand...


Thanks for your thoughts.
I am happy you have the right to free speech.
People of your ilk need to be heard
Have a great Memorial Day!


----------



## SFC Ollie

Yes I signed it.

Millions have.

I've never called myself a hero. The Mrs thinks I am. They pinned enough medals on my chest to call me one. But I'm still here. Tomorrow I'll fire two 21 Gun salutes to the real heroes in 2 cemeteries. As will thousands of others across the country.

Without the troops how long would we remain free?


----------



## Caroljo

Trajan said:


> Obama, is a hero.



Really? For what???
And don't give me "because he killed Bin Laden", no HE didn't.


----------



## SFC Ollie

Trajan said:


> Obama, is a hero.




You need to see a Doctor, quick.....


----------



## MikeK

Trajan said:


> I am sorry you became sour on the military Mike


I'm not sour on the military.  The military is necessary for the defense of the Nation.  I am sour on the persistent misuse of our military.  I am sour on the ease with which our clearly corrupt government gets away with engaging in unnecessary military aggressions and callling them "wars" in an obvious effort to conflate their reality and purpose with those of WW-II.  And I'm sour on the tendency of far too many Americans to believe that simply wearing a uniform qualifies as heroism.  



> [...]but guess what, in 1936 I am sure you could have founds folks saying same and along came ww2.


Not so.  Because between 1936 and WW-II there was nothing to compare with the war crime that was the invasion of Iraq.  There was nothing to compare with the war crime called Vietnam.  There was not the wholly unnecessary invasion of Grenada.  And there was nothing to compare with the unnecessarily protracted and redundantly enacted fighting in Afghanistan.  None of these so-called "wars" serve any purpose other than enrichment of the Military Industrial Complex -- which didn't exist prior to WW-II.    



> As far as "indoctrinated militaristic mind and nothing more."...no, not so, there is 2.5 wars on


Where are these wars?  As far as I can recall the United States has not been at war since 1945.  



> [...]and I know from experience  there are at lest 6-7 other spots on the globe where American forces are at  risk


Please be more specific about where these situations are and why our troops are at risk there.  I know we have military bases all over the world but I don't know why.  I do know that a similar policy led to the destruction of Ancient Rome.  I also know that one of our nation's most serious problems is the fact that its citizens have largely ignored the warning issued by former President Eisenhower about what then was an emerging Military Industrial Complex but which has since evolved into a massively powerful oligarch.  



> [...]in uniform and I am not going to split hairs on whether the guys hand I shake was/is an infantryman or a remf/pogue, I never do..... Just because you've spun out doesn't make the statement true or not.
> 
> It is what it is and we are all part of the same hypocrisy, some just seem to handle it better.


I have no idea what all of that means.


----------



## The Gadfly

"Interesting that you bring up Vietnam" 
Indeed, though I'm sure you're grateful,JB for another chance to bemoan the treatment of your precious little VC "freedom fighters". We had a few descriptions for the Cong, but I don't think that's one I'd use, and I had to fight the sonsofbitches. One thing I sure wouldn't call Charlie, is anything resembling an honorable soldier; they didn't play by ANY rules, and were openly proud of it. The stuff you mention Phoenix personnel doing to VC cadre (those would be the ones who directly planned and authorized VC terror atrocities) are child's play, compared to what I have seen the VC do. You want to cry over those dirtbags? Cry me a fucking river, little boy, because your knowledge of counterinsurgency fighting comes from some book you read, from bad movies, or whiny, spineless political types, not reality.Take your opinion and shove it, along with your brain, up the anal orifice of a gnat; it'll rattle like a BB in a 55 gallon fuel drum. Incidentally, are you a native Canadian, (you spell like one) or just a draft dodger who moved up there? In either case, I really don't see why we should care what you think about how we should do things in America. I swore I would not come back to this inappropriate thread for a Memorial Day weekend, but for your disrespectful self, I'll make an exception. You can call me a "war criminal" all you want, but one more time (just because I know it irritates you), I do not personally give a rat's rear end what happened to any VC as long as it ended with them permanently assuming ambient temperature! BTW, Phoenix was one of the more successful programs we ran in Vietnam; just ask the VC and the NVA. I really don't care whether you like the methodology used, or not; it worked.

P.S It takes a lot to make me really angry, but you managed it! Go play in traffic!


----------



## RetiredGySgt

JBeukema said:


> dblack said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think the point is to acknowledge that everyone who signs up for military service is committed to risking their lives, potentially heroically, for the rest of us. Neither our piss-poor leadership nor the idiotic wars they get us into diminish that commitment.
> 
> 
> 
> When was the last time out military was used to protect us?
Click to expand...


You and people that think like you are beyond ignorant. Afghanistan and Iraq protected us. That you and people like you can't see that proves just how brain dead and pampered you are. Iraq was on the verge of having sanctions lifted and Saddam was prepared to return to chemical biological and nuclear research. The Government papers we captured PROVED that. We invade Iraq to end a threat. We invaded Afghanistan to punish an attack and the Country protecting those attackers.


----------



## RetiredGySgt

JBeukema said:


> RetiredGySgt said:
> 
> 
> 
> The benefits require one to serve 20 years with no promise that A) the job won't make that impossible, B) the career path won't be phased out, C) Promotions won't be stagnant, forcing one out for failing to progress in rank,D)Injury suffered forces one out but does not raise to the level of getting a medical retirement.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The same complaints can be made about just about any retirement package
Click to expand...


Ya all civilian jobs require you to risk life, limb and health every day, they force you to go on exercises that take you away from your family for days on end, sometimes months. They require you to carry weapons and stand guard with the real possibility of being shot.  Shall I go on?


----------



## JBeukema

Force?

I thought you were one of the ones saying these people signed up to defend murka?


----------



## daveman

RetiredGySgt said:


> There is no Dental coverage for family while serving and no dental for anyone once retired.


Point of order:  There is Tricare dental coverage for dependents, administered by United Concordia.
It's nothing to brag about as far as coverage is concerned, but it's there.


----------



## Wicked Jester

JBeukema said:


> Force?
> 
> I thought you were one of the ones saying these people signed up to defend murka?


Seriously, you are an abject fucking idiot to the core.......Just the fact that you have to throw up EVERY neg rep you receive, fully proves you are a spineless lil' fuck.

I'm thinking you bash the military because you fully understand you would never have the guts or strength to serve......YOU would fold under the pressure. YOU would get people unecessarilly killed.

You're not fooling anybody, pissant!


----------



## JBeukema

Believe that you will; you don't matter anyway


----------



## Liability

The undeniable assholes are the ones who think they are saying something worthwhile when the refer to America as murka.


----------



## Wicked Jester

Liability said:


> The undeniable assholes are the ones who think they are saying something worthwhile when the refer to America as murka.


Yeah, and he's a lil' PUNK who CLAIMS he wants to join the MARINES.

I see a few blanket parties in his future if he does.......Fuckin' lil' pissant motherfucker.


----------



## whitehall

Why not? I always wondered why they called Football and Basketball freaks "heroes". I was never a professional football player or basketball player but I was a member of the greatest Military in the civilized world. Call me a hero. I don't mind.


----------



## JBeukema

Your language reveals that you are a child. Grow up and stop disgracing the uniform. Act like a grown man.


----------



## Wicked Jester

JBeukema said:


> Your language reveals that you are a child. Grow up and stop disgracing the uniform. Act like a grown man.


My language reveals that I live in a country with a beautiful thing called a First Amendment Right, MOTHERFUCKER!

You don't like the language?.........Don't join the military, MOTHERFUCKER.......'Cause i'm mild compared to what you're gonna hear!

But then, you're full o' SHIT, MOTHERFUCKER!.......Always have been.....You wouldn't make it past hospital corners and quarter bouncing day, MOTHERFUCKER!

It's best you just stay down in mommy's basement and spend your time whining about how bad this country sucks, MOTHERFUCKER!


----------



## JBeukema

Real men don't throw tantrums.


----------



## MikeK

The Gadfly said:


> Mike,
> Thank you for serving our country.....and when I tell you (or anyone else) that, I am NOT being "patronizing", or saying "better you than me", *because I have been there, done that*.


Then what reason do you suppose you have to thank me?  I certainly don't owe you any thanks.   



> I joined up in 1962, before I went to college, so by the time things heated up in Vietnam, I had finished my active obligation, and was still in the Reserve. I could have avoided Vietnam; all I had to do was not re-up and apply for OCS. I could have let some kid with less experience do the fighting (and maybe the dying) for me, but you know what-after all I've been through, I am damn glad I didn't, and I'd do it again. I'd do it again, because it would not have felt right to do otherwise, not to me.


So you compromised your safety and your future to accommodate some anonymous junior who probably would be pulled in at some point, anyway.  Didn't you have anything to live for?  A wife?  A girl who loved you?  Your mother?  Someone who would be anguished if you were killed or crippled.  How would you explain your action to them?   



> Some call me a "war criminal" for that. Some say I "must love war".


There were some extremists in the protest movement who voiced such opinions.  But that level of protest didn't begin until news of My Lai and other atrocities started leaking and the public began to realize there was no justifiable reason for our presence in Vietnam.   

The "war lover" refrain came mainly from the many thousands of protesters who burned their draft cards and simply refused to go.   



> Bullshit. I hate war, but there's something I hate more-the idea of "peace at any price". So go ahead and call me an "indoctrinated militarist", or whatever else you damn well choose; I don't care, and I've been called worse. I know what I was fighting for, and I don't need or want anyone else telling me how I "should" feel about it.


I don't know about peace at _any_ price but as far as Vietnam was concerned we should have gotten out of there much sooner.  

If you know what you were fighting for you should have written to Robert MacNamara, the architect of the Vietnam "police action," and told him.  Because he wrote a book at the end of his career, _The Fog Of War,_ in which he clearly admits there was no good reason for our presence there to begin with.  Perhaps you could have enlightened him.  



> By the way, I am a 'three-time volunteer", but I am no hero,  never thought I was, or wanted to be. I am a survivor. You want heroes, go look on the Wall; you can find their names right there.



I've never seen The Wall.  But I have seen many pictures of it and the only thought it brings to my mind is the terrible waste it represents.  It is a monument that for all intents and purposes should have prevented George W. Bush from effectively perpetrating his arrogant crime.  The reason it didn't is most Americans prefer to think in terms of _heroes_ rather than brave and willing _victims._


----------



## Colin

JBeukema said:


> Warrior102 said:
> 
> 
> 
> It's obvious you dislike vets.
> 
> 
> 
> It's clear you're just an ignorant troll. I neither like nor dislike  'vets'. 'Verts' is a huge group of persons, some likeable and some not-  some honourable and some not.
> 
> 
> Unlike you, I judge people as individuals. Some people are honourable  and some are not. Some wars are justified and some are not. Some actions  are acceptable and some are not.
> 
> You, however, attack me via negrep for judging men for their own characters and actions instead of painting with a broad brush
> 
> 
> 
> Warrior102 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hi, you have received -7 reputation points from Warrior102.
> Reputation was given for *this* post.
> 
> Comment:
> Move to Vietnam chimp
> 
> Regards,
> Warrior102
> 
> Note: This is an automated message.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Interesting that you bring up VietNam
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thankfully you live in a country where you're allowed to voice your pitiful points of view.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> For now. We'll see how long that lasts. Today, America sets up 'Free  Speech Zones' for dissenters- implying that the rest of the nation,  outside that little area, is not a Free Speech zone.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Too bad Americans have to tolerate folks like you.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yes, too bad there are people to demand the truth and hold this nation to a higher standard...
> 
> You are filth
Click to expand...


Fucking hilarious! JB calls someone else filth!


----------



## daveman

JBeukema said:


> Believe that you will; you don't matter anyway



Is that why you post every neg rep you get?


----------



## 007

Smash_Hits said:


> *I really, really dislike Memorial Day.* Not* because I hate the military* (not true), nor because I don't think soldiers can't be heroes (also not true), but because I hate the spewing of jingoistic "all soldiers are heroes and they protect our freedom," by all parts of the political spectrum. Now, I want to make it clear that I do not believe soldiers can't be heroes; for example, I consider JFK to be one of the greatest men this country has seen, partly because of his actions in the military. What I am asking, is why all soldiers are automatically heroes? They certainly don't all earn it (US soldiers 'killed Afghan civilians for sport and collected fingers as trophies' | World news | The Guardian). And don't say it is because they are protecting our freedom, because frankly, they aren't right now. There were wars where they were, but our current conflicts are not intended to protect us.



Hmmm... another military and veteran hater. What a shocker.

So where did you learn to hate the military? You grow up in a hippie commune? You live in San Franqueerco? You join and got your pussy ass washed out? You a butt boy? What? What did soldiers or the military every do to you other than fight for your rights and your freedom to make you HATE them? ... you fucking rotten piece of dog shit... you make me fucking SICK.


----------



## Caroljo

I have a friend and her son on my Facebook account...i just blocked her son.  First off, he's gay...which doesn't bother me..he's a good kid and being gay is his problem between him and God.  I usually just glance over his comments, because he usually says stuff i don't really care about.  But, last week he posted a video showing a US Soldier that had "come out of the closet".  That's fine too, except her son posted the comment "THIS is what i call the ultimate HERO" (or something very close to that).  So i blocked him, he has no idea what a hero is, and it ISN'T because someone announces their gay!  Some people have no idea what a hero is, or should be.  I'd like to see some of these people get put through the training my son is going through with the Special Forces right now, they wouldn't make it through day 1...i know i wouldn't!


----------



## The Gadfly

MikeK said:


> The Gadfly said:
> 
> 
> 
> Mike,
> Thank you for serving our country.....and when I tell you (or anyone else) that, I am NOT being "patronizing", or saying "better you than me", *because I have been there, done that*.
> 
> 
> 
> Then what reason do you suppose you have to thank me?  I certainly don't owe you any thanks.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I joined up in 1962, before I went to college, so by the time things heated up in Vietnam, I had finished my active obligation, and was still in the Reserve. I could have avoided Vietnam; all I had to do was not re-up and apply for OCS. I could have let some kid with less experience do the fighting (and maybe the dying) for me, but you know what-after all I've been through, I am damn glad I didn't, and I'd do it again. I'd do it again, because it would not have felt right to do otherwise, not to me.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> So you compromised your safety and your future to accommodate some anonymous junior who probably would be pulled in at some point, anyway.  Didn't you have anything to live for?  A wife?  A girl who loved you?  Your mother?  Someone who would be anguished if you were killed or crippled.  How would you explain your action to them?
> 
> 
> There were some extremists in the protest movement who voiced such opinions.  But that level of protest didn't begin until news of My Lai and other atrocities started leaking and the public began to realize there was no justifiable reason for our presence in Vietnam.
> 
> I do not regret serving in Vietnam. I do not consider that service a burden. My job was to "protect the innocent, convince the undecided, and kill the rest", and I did the best I could, as did the magnificent men it was my privilege to command. I only regret that I could not bring each and every one of them safely home, to their loved ones, that we were not allowed to finish the job, and that America disgraced herself by cutting and running, with victory within our grasp. Just as I am not a hero, I am not a victim either.
> 
> The "war lover" refrain came mainly from the many thousands of protesters who burned their draft cards and simply refused to go.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Bullshit. I hate war, but there's something I hate more-the idea of "peace at any price". So go ahead and call me an "indoctrinated militarist", or whatever else you damn well choose; I don't care, and I've been called worse. I know what I was fighting for, and I don't need or want anyone else telling me how I "should" feel about it.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I don't know about peace at _any_ price but as far as Vietnam was concerned we should have gotten out of there much sooner.
> 
> If you know what you were fighting for you should have written to Robert MacNamara, the architect of the Vietnam "police action," and told him.  Because he wrote a book at the end of his career, _The Fog Of War,_ in which he clearly admits there was no good reason for our presence there to begin with.  Perhaps you could have enlightened him.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> By the way, I am a 'three-time volunteer", but I am no hero,  never thought I was, or wanted to be. I am a survivor. You want heroes, go look on the Wall; you can find their names right there.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I've never seen The Wall.  But I have seen many pictures of it and the only thought it brings to my mind is the terrible waste it represents.  It is a monument that for all intents and purposes should have prevented George W. Bush from effectively perpetrating his arrogant crime.  The reason it didn't is most Americans prefer to think in terms of _heroes_ rather than brave and willing _victims._
Click to expand...


First of all, I'll thank anyone who has had the requisite love of country, unselfishness, devotion to duty, and yes, courage, to serve America in uniform. That specifically includes you. I am not angry that you see your service as you do; I am saddened that any veteran feels so about something I regard as an honor and a privilege.

Second, yes, I had a future, a girlfriend and family waiting back home, and everything to live for. So did most men who went to Vietnam. I didn't go to Vietnam to die; I fully intended and expected to do my duty, complete the mission, and come home. I only knew a couple of "death lovers" (defined as those with an apparent desire to "die a glorious death" in combat) during my time in service. I was not one of them, nor did I want any with me in the field; they get other people killed.

So why would I risk my life, and or my personal safety? A number of reasons: because I CHOSE to be an officer in the United States Army; because I CHOSE to try to be the very best, and lead the very best; because I believe, as Lee said, that "Duty is the most sublime word in the English Language. Do your duty in all things; you cannot do more; you should never wish to do less."; because I believed that the spread of communism was evil and had to be stopped; because I wanted the Vietnamese people to be able to decide who would lead them, without being terrorized into supporting the VC, and last but not least, because I was ordered to, and my oath of service forbade disobeying the lawful orders of my superiors. The first time I saw what the VC did to make an example of a village, I KNEW, beyond doubt, that I made the right choice; I knew, even while I and my men puked at the sight of the horror the Cong had perpetrated, what I was fighting for, and just what kind of evil I was fighting against. I want to tell you something here; I hear all sorts of remarks about the awful things Americans did in Vietnam. I am here to tell you that regardless of what made the six o'clock news, I never saw Americans do anything remotely like what the VC did in that place, but what I DID see, was Americans giving some of the Vietnamese the only medical care they had ever received, Americans giving rations to hungry peasants, Americans shielding Vietnamese kids from bullets with their own bodies. Uncle Walter forgot to mention any of that. Were there occasional disgraceful incidents? Sure, like there are in any war; but when anyone paints the American soldier of Vietnam, as a sadistic, unfeeling, racist, drug-besotted, baby-killing, raping, murdering, pillaging brute, or as a stupid, gullible, mindless sacrificial lamb, I get angry...I get angry because THAT IS A LIE!

As for McNamara and his band of Ivy League "geniuses", I, and any number of NCOs and junior officers, could have given them some excellent advice, ASSUMING they had been able to locate their own arse long enough to remove their heads from same and listen to it. As it was, it was evident to most of us that said geniuses could not even figure out exactly what it was they wanted us to do, much less how they wanted us to do it. Alas, incompetent civilian command is not a crime (though I have my own opinion as to whether it ought to be).

I am not a hero, and I'm not a victim either; just a soldier who did his best to do a difficult job. I'm not ashamed of anything I did, and I am proud of the magnificent soldiers it was my privilege to command; they are and always will be MY heroes.

About that "anonymous junior who would probably be pulled in at some point..." - somewhere out there in America, is a man who has had a life, raised a family, and gotten old like me, who might have had that life ripped from him before it really began, somewhere in Vietnam, if I had simply walked away. I don't know his name, and he doesn't know mine. It doesn't matter.

Just one more thing; we fought a war in Vietnam, and then we fought a longer and harder war when we got home. No group of American soldiers has ever been quite so despised; spat on, cursed, treated like lepers, as Vietnam vets. I have to believe, that most Americans, with the passage of time, have come to realize how wrong that was, and if that means that no American service man or woman will come home to that sort of reception ever again, well, then in my book, it was worth that too.


----------



## Trajan

SFC Ollie said:


> Trajan said:
> 
> 
> 
> Obama, is a hero.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You need to see a Doctor, quick.....
Click to expand...


hey, thats what I have been told...*shrugs*....


----------



## Trajan

MikeK said:


> Trajan said:
> 
> 
> 
> I am sorry you became sour on the military Mike
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not sour on the military.  The military is necessary for the defense of the Nation.  I am sour on the persistent misuse of our military.  I am sour on the ease with which our clearly corrupt government gets away with engaging in unnecessary military aggressions and callling them "wars" in an obvious effort to conflate their reality and purpose with those of WW-II.  And I'm sour on the tendency of far too many Americans to believe that simply wearing a uniform qualifies as heroism.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [...]but guess what, in 1936 I am sure you could have founds folks saying same and along came ww2.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Not so.  Because between 1936 and WW-II there was nothing to compare with the war crime that was the invasion of Iraq.  There was nothing to compare with the war crime called Vietnam.  There was not the wholly unnecessary invasion of Grenada.  And there was nothing to compare with the unnecessarily protracted and redundantly enacted fighting in Afghanistan.  None of these so-called "wars" serve any purpose other than enrichment of the Military Industrial Complex -- which didn't exist prior to WW-II.
> 
> 
> Where are these wars?  As far as I can recall the United States has not been at war since 1945.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [...]and I know from experience  there are at lest 6-7 other spots on the globe where American forces are at  risk
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Please be more specific about where these situations are and why our troops are at risk there.  I know we have military bases all over the world but I don't know why.  I do know that a similar policy led to the destruction of Ancient Rome.  I also know that one of our nation's most serious problems is the fact that its citizens have largely ignored the warning issued by former President Eisenhower about what then was an emerging Military Industrial Complex but which has since evolved into a massively powerful oligarch.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [...]in uniform and I am not going to split hairs on whether the guys hand I shake was/is an infantryman or a remf/pogue, I never do..... Just because you've spun out doesn't make the statement true or not.
> 
> It is what it is and we are all part of the same hypocrisy, some just seem to handle it better.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I have no idea what all of that means.
Click to expand...




> Not so.  Because between 1936 and WW-II there was nothing to compare with the war crime that was the invasion of Iraq.  There was nothing to compare with the war crime called Vietnam.  There was not the wholly unnecessary invasion of Grenada.  And there was nothing to compare with the unnecessarily protracted and redundantly enacted fighting in Afghanistan.  None of these so-called "wars" serve any purpose other than enrichment of the Military Industrial Complex -- which didn't exist prior to WW-II.




me thinks some reading of the treatys, agreements  and workings of the league of nations etc. between ww1 and 1939 would help you out. 


and-

"War Is a Racket"

War Is a Racket - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

plenty of people felt that the banana wars, the Philippines etc etc was just more of the same, just becasue Eisenhower named it so, doesn't mean it didn't ostensibly exist before hand. Its just  a matter of relative size of the resources committed as to who they were fighting. 



> Where are these wars?  As far as I can recall the United States has not been at war since 1945.



I see....

Q- did you sppt. our actions in Afghanistan when we went in?


----------



## Trajan

MikeK said:


> The Gadfly said:
> 
> 
> 
> Mike,
> Thank you for serving our country.....and when I tell you (or anyone else) that, I am NOT being "patronizing", or saying "better you than me", *because I have been there, done that*.
> 
> 
> 
> Then what reason do you suppose you have to thank me?  I certainly don't owe you any thanks.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I joined up in 1962, before I went to college, so by the time things heated up in Vietnam, I had finished my active obligation, and was still in the Reserve. I could have avoided Vietnam; all I had to do was not re-up and apply for OCS. I could have let some kid with less experience do the fighting (and maybe the dying) for me, but you know what-after all I've been through, I am damn glad I didn't, and I'd do it again. I'd do it again, because it would not have felt right to do otherwise, not to me.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> So you compromised your safety and your future to accommodate some anonymous junior who probably would be pulled in at some point, anyway.  Didn't you have anything to live for?  A wife?  A girl who loved you?  Your mother?  Someone who would be anguished if you were killed or crippled.  How would you explain your action to them?
> 
> 
> There were some extremists in the protest movement who voiced such opinions.  But that level of protest didn't begin until news of My Lai and other atrocities started leaking and the public began to realize there was no justifiable reason for our presence in Vietnam.
> 
> The "war lover" refrain came mainly from the many thousands of protesters who burned their draft cards and simply refused to go.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Bullshit. I hate war, but there's something I hate more-the idea of "peace at any price". So go ahead and call me an "indoctrinated militarist", or whatever else you damn well choose; I don't care, and I've been called worse. I know what I was fighting for, and I don't need or want anyone else telling me how I "should" feel about it.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I don't know about peace at _any_ price but as far as Vietnam was concerned we should have gotten out of there much sooner.
> 
> If you know what you were fighting for you should have written to Robert MacNamara, the architect of the Vietnam "police action," and told him.  Because he wrote a book at the end of his career, _The Fog Of War,_ in which he clearly admits there was no good reason for our presence there to begin with.  Perhaps you could have enlightened him.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> By the way, I am a 'three-time volunteer", but I am no hero,  never thought I was, or wanted to be. I am a survivor. You want heroes, go look on the Wall; you can find their names right there.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I've never seen The Wall.  But I have seen many pictures of it and the only thought it brings to my mind is the terrible waste it represents.  It is a monument that for all intents and purposes should have prevented George W. Bush from effectively perpetrating his arrogant crime.  The reason it didn't is most Americans prefer to think in terms of _heroes_ rather than brave and willing _victims._
Click to expand...


ah, the benefits of hindsight,the  McNamara apology tour? please. I see the redemption bus. is in full swing.


----------



## Smash_Hits

Pale Rider said:


> Smash_Hits said:
> 
> 
> 
> *I really, really dislike Memorial Day.* Not* because I hate the military* (not true), nor because I don't think soldiers can't be heroes (also not true), but because I hate the spewing of jingoistic "all soldiers are heroes and they protect our freedom," by all parts of the political spectrum. Now, I want to make it clear that I do not believe soldiers can't be heroes; for example, I consider JFK to be one of the greatest men this country has seen, partly because of his actions in the military. What I am asking, is why all soldiers are automatically heroes? They certainly don't all earn it (US soldiers 'killed Afghan civilians for sport and collected fingers as trophies' | World news | The Guardian). And don't say it is because they are protecting our freedom, because frankly, they aren't right now. There were wars where they were, but our current conflicts are not intended to protect us.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hmmm... another military and veteran hater. What a shocker.
> 
> So where did you learn to hate the military? You grow up in a hippie commune? You live in San Franqueerco? You join and got your pussy ass washed out? You a butt boy? What? What did soldiers or the military every do to you other than fight for your rights and your freedom to make you HATE them? ... you fucking rotten piece of dog shit... you make me fucking SICK.
Click to expand...


Someone's mad. Notice I never said I hated the military... reading through my post might have cleared that up for you. I actually think the military is a great thing, because it allows us to protect ourselves (and others, if the situation calls for it). However, I'm not going to regard someone as a hero just because they do a dangerous job. I'll respect them, as I will anyone else, but to be a hero you must actively do good in the world. And no, the current military is not protecting our freedom. People in Iraq and Afghanistan have absolutely no potential to truly harm the US.
I really think you should take a break from rage... I'm not sure why you're calling me "dog shit," "butt boy," and calling me a pussy. I'm not trying to enflame, just trying to bring up a point I believe is quite valid and relevant. What are you, 10 years old?


----------



## JBeukema

daveman said:


> Is that why you post every neg rep you get?


Just exposing the cowards who attack me behind the scenes because I judge men as individuals.


----------



## SFC Ollie

Smash_Hits said:


> Pale Rider said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Smash_Hits said:
> 
> 
> 
> *I really, really dislike Memorial Day.* Not* because I hate the military* (not true), nor because I don't think soldiers can't be heroes (also not true), but because I hate the spewing of jingoistic "all soldiers are heroes and they protect our freedom," by all parts of the political spectrum. Now, I want to make it clear that I do not believe soldiers can't be heroes; for example, I consider JFK to be one of the greatest men this country has seen, partly because of his actions in the military. What I am asking, is why all soldiers are automatically heroes? They certainly don't all earn it (US soldiers 'killed Afghan civilians for sport and collected fingers as trophies' | World news | The Guardian). And don't say it is because they are protecting our freedom, because frankly, they aren't right now. There were wars where they were, but our current conflicts are not intended to protect us.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hmmm... another military and veteran hater. What a shocker.
> 
> So where did you learn to hate the military? You grow up in a hippie commune? You live in San Franqueerco? You join and got your pussy ass washed out? You a butt boy? What? What did soldiers or the military every do to you other than fight for your rights and your freedom to make you HATE them? ... you fucking rotten piece of dog shit... you make me fucking SICK.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Someone's mad. Notice I never said I hated the military... reading through my post might have cleared that up for you. I actually think the military is a great thing, because it allows us to protect ourselves (and others, if the situation calls for it). However, I'm not going to regard someone as a hero just because they do a dangerous job. I'll respect them, as I will anyone else, but to be a hero you must actively do good in the world. And no, the current military is not protecting our freedom. People in Iraq and Afghanistan have absolutely no potential to truly harm the US.
> I really think you should take a break from rage... I'm not sure why you're calling me "dog shit," "butt boy," and calling me a pussy. I'm not trying to enflame, just trying to bring up a point I believe is quite valid and relevant. What are you, 10 years old?
Click to expand...


It doesn't matter what our military is doing. For some years there was no conflict, Tens of thousands  probably even hundreds of thousands never saw any combat at all. But they wore the uniform. And if they weren't wearing the uniform how long do you think we would have remained free? You only keep your rights as long as we maintain a strong military. For as soon as it weakens someone will assuredly take advantage of that weakness. 

A saluted hundreds of Heroes today, I hope you enjoyed your BBQ.....


----------



## JBeukema

Putting on a uniform doesn't suddenly make a man a devil or a saint. Honour and dishonour come with a man's own actions and character, not from the clothes he wears.

Some bring honour to their uniforms and some brings dishonour and infamy.

But this thread will be deleted just like the last time I pointed this out- god forbid we put away the broad brushes and judge men as individuals...


----------



## daveman

Smash_Hits said:


> People in Iraq and Afghanistan have absolutely no potential to truly harm the US.


Wrong.


----------



## daveman

JBeukema said:


> daveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> Is that why you post every neg rep you get?
> 
> 
> 
> Just exposing the cowards who attack me behind the scenes because I judge men as individuals.
Click to expand...

Really?  I've negged you, AND I attack you out here in the fora.  

I think the actual reason is you're just a sissy bedwetter.


----------



## SFC Ollie

daveman said:


> JBeukema said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> daveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> Is that why you post every neg rep you get?
> 
> 
> 
> Just exposing the cowards who attack me behind the scenes because I judge men as individuals.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Really?  I've negged you, AND I attack you out here in the fora.
> 
> I think the actual reason is you're just a sissy bedwetter.
Click to expand...


I ended up ignoring the slime. Life is so much happier that way.


----------



## JBeukema

daveman said:


> Smash_Hits said:
> 
> 
> 
> People in Iraq and Afghanistan have absolutely no potential to truly harm the US.
> 
> 
> 
> Wrong.
Click to expand...

Why did Cheney order NORAD to stand down?

'The plane is ten miles out. Do the orders still stand?'


----------



## JBeukema




----------



## Trajan

JBeukema said:


> daveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Smash_Hits said:
> 
> 
> 
> People in Iraq and Afghanistan have absolutely no potential to truly harm the US.
> 
> 
> 
> Wrong.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Why did Cheney order NORAD to stand down?
> 
> 'The plane is ten miles out. Do the orders still stand?'
Click to expand...


here we go...... I wasn't aware you were a truther....unreal....


----------



## JBeukema

Explain building 7


----------



## daveman

JBeukema said:


> daveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Smash_Hits said:
> 
> 
> 
> People in Iraq and Afghanistan have absolutely no potential to truly harm the US.
> 
> 
> 
> Wrong.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Why did Cheney order NORAD to stand down?
> 
> 'The plane is ten miles out. Do the orders still stand?'
Click to expand...

Moron.


----------



## JBeukema

daveman said:
			
		

> Hi, you have received -163 reputation points from daveman.
> Reputation was given for *this* post.
> 
> Comment:
> Moron.
> 
> Regards,
> daveman
> 
> Note: This is an automated message.



So... you _can't_ explain building seven, coward?

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QlM8Sui6-X0]YouTube - &#x202a;Cheney gave STAND DOWN ORDER&#x202c;&rlm;[/ame]


----------



## daveman

JBeukema said:


> daveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hi, you have received -163 reputation points from daveman.
> Reputation was given for *this* post.
> 
> Comment:
> Moron.
> 
> Regards,
> daveman
> 
> Note: This is an automated message.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So... you _can't_ explain building seven, coward?
> 
> [ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QlM8Sui6-X0]YouTube - &#x202a;Cheney gave STAND DOWN ORDER&#x202c;&rlm;[/ame]
Click to expand...

It's been explained countless times, moron.  But the answer doesn't blame Bush, so you have your little panties in a bunch.

Grow up, you sissy bedwetter.


----------



## percysunshine

JBeukema said:


> Putting on a uniform doesn't suddenly make a man a devil or a saint. Honour and dishonour come with a man's own actions and character, not from the clothes he wears.
> 
> Some bring honour to their uniforms and some brings dishonour and infamy.
> 
> But this thread will be deleted just like the last time I pointed this out- god forbid we put away the broad brushes and judge men as individuals...



That argument would have worked when there was a draft, and it was not a volunteer service.

It changed, like a gazillion years ago


----------



## LadyGunSlinger

Smash_Hits said:


> I really, really dislike Memorial Day. Not because I hate the military (not true), nor because I don't think soldiers can't be heroes (also not true), but because I hate the spewing of jingoistic "all soldiers are heroes and they protect our freedom," by all parts of the political spectrum. Now, I want to make it clear that I do not believe soldiers can't be heroes; for example, I consider JFK to be one of the greatest men this country has seen, partly because of his actions in the military. What I am asking, is why all soldiers are automatically heroes? They certainly don't all earn it (US soldiers 'killed Afghan civilians for sport and collected fingers as trophies' | World news | The Guardiran). And don't say it is because they are protecting our freedom, because frankly, they aren't right now. There were wars where they were, but our current conflicts are not intended to protect us.




Wow, talk about a fucking asshole! If you have to even ask it tells me all I want to know about you. Those who enlist lay their lives on the line for strangers, some who don't deserve it LIKE YOU; to ensure you have the freedom to trash their very service without threat... You can simply thank them. Nothing more heroic than to risk  your life for a stranger.


----------



## LadyGunSlinger

JBeukema said:


> Real men don't throw tantrums.



How the hell do you know what a real man is? Personal experience?!


----------



## Trajan

JBeukema said:


> Explain building 7



after you explain the treatment for your brain tumor...


----------



## MikeK

The Gadfly said:


> Just one more thing; we fought a war in Vietnam, and then we fought a longer and harder war when we got home. No group of American soldiers has ever been quite so despised; *spat on*, cursed, *treated like lepers*, as Vietnam vets. I have to believe, that most Americans, with the passage of time, have come to realize how wrong that was, and if that means that no American service man or woman will come home to that sort of reception ever again, well, then in my book, it was worth that too.


As a former protest organizer I can attest that the kind of demonstrations which focused angry criticism on military personnel represented a very small percentage of the protest movement.  And, as I've already mentioned, that kind of conduct occurred in response to such events as the My Lai massacre and other atrocites that reached the public's attention.  The vast majority of protests consisted of letter-writing campaigns, visits to congressional offices, sit-ins and other peaceful demonstrations -- which received little to no media coverage.  

Most important, in no demonstration I ever attended or heard about were any military personnel treated the way you've described above.  Most demonstrations were attended by Vietnam veterans who would not tolerate it.  And those angry, derisive demonstrations we saw on television were a tiny minority which received so much attention because the media focused on them.  *And in no demonstration I ever attended, or saw, or heard about, was any soldier spat upon.*  That popular myth, which was fostered by the movie, _Rambo,_ in which the Stallone character, who successfully terrorized half a dozen heavily armed adversaries with nothing but a K-Bar knife and some matches, tearfully lamented that he'd been spat on.  Conspicuously missing from that rather stupid scene is the question, _What did you do about it, Rambo?_ 

You need to understand that the spitting-on-Vietnam-vets story is utter fiction.  It never happened.  The popularity of that rumor had caused so much controversy back in the early seventies that the FBI actually investigated it and found it to be false.  You can read all about it in a book written by a college professor who also made a dedicated effort to track down the source of the "spitting" reports but could not.  The following is from an article by that writer and it contains a link to the full story.

(Excerpt)

_Spitting on the Troops: Old Myth, New Rumors
By Jerry Lembcke:

[...]

The truth is that nobody spat on Vietnam veterans and nobody is spitting on the soldiers today. Attempts to silence opponents of the war with those figments of hostility are dishonest and should, themselves, be banished from our discourse. 

Jerry Lembcke is the author of "The Spitting Image: Myth, Memory, and the Legacy of Vietnam" (New York University Press, 1998). Jerry is the New England contact for VVAW. He is also an associate professor of sociology at Holy Cross College in Worcester, Massachusetts and can be reached at 508-793-3050 or jlembcke@holycross.edu._


----------



## Smash_Hits

LadyGunSlinger said:


> Smash_Hits said:
> 
> 
> 
> I really, really dislike Memorial Day. Not because I hate the military (not true), nor because I don't think soldiers can't be heroes (also not true), but because I hate the spewing of jingoistic "all soldiers are heroes and they protect our freedom," by all parts of the political spectrum. Now, I want to make it clear that I do not believe soldiers can't be heroes; for example, I consider JFK to be one of the greatest men this country has seen, partly because of his actions in the military. What I am asking, is why all soldiers are automatically heroes? They certainly don't all earn it (US soldiers 'killed Afghan civilians for sport and collected fingers as trophies' | World news | The Guardiran). And don't say it is because they are protecting our freedom, because frankly, they aren't right now. There were wars where they were, but our current conflicts are not intended to protect us.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wow, talk about a fucking asshole! If you have to even ask it tells me all I want to know about you. Those who enlist lay their lives on the line for strangers, some who don't deserve it LIKE YOU; to ensure you have the freedom to trash their very service without threat... You can simply thank them. Nothing more heroic than to risk  your life for a stranger.
Click to expand...



No current member of the military has protected my freedom. I just want to clear that up. That isn't to say the military hasn't protected my freedom in the past, nor does it mean the military won't protect it in the future.
By your logic, a hero is somebody who risks their lives for somebody else. That means that every single president, doctor, sewage worker, scientist, etc. is a hero. I will support memorial when he have days honoring every person who puts his life on the line for someone else.
A hero isn't someone who gets payed to put their life on the line; it's somebody who goes above and beyond their position and station in life to help the lives of others. There are many members of the military who have done this, but they aren't all heros.




			
				daveman said:
			
		

> Wrong.



1: 9/11 did not hurt America as a whole. Sorry, but that's the truth. 3000 people is not a significant chunk.

2: Iraq and Afghanistan didn't attack us. Al' Qaeda did. Know your facts please.


----------



## SFC Ollie

Smash_Hits said:


> LadyGunSlinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Smash_Hits said:
> 
> 
> 
> I really, really dislike Memorial Day. Not because I hate the military (not true), nor because I don't think soldiers can't be heroes (also not true), but because I hate the spewing of jingoistic "all soldiers are heroes and they protect our freedom," by all parts of the political spectrum. Now, I want to make it clear that I do not believe soldiers can't be heroes; for example, I consider JFK to be one of the greatest men this country has seen, partly because of his actions in the military. What I am asking, is why all soldiers are automatically heroes? They certainly don't all earn it (US soldiers 'killed Afghan civilians for sport and collected fingers as trophies' | World news | The Guardiran). And don't say it is because they are protecting our freedom, because frankly, they aren't right now. There were wars where they were, but our current conflicts are not intended to protect us.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wow, talk about a fucking asshole! If you have to even ask it tells me all I want to know about you. Those who enlist lay their lives on the line for strangers, some who don't deserve it LIKE YOU; to ensure you have the freedom to trash their very service without threat... You can simply thank them. Nothing more heroic than to risk  your life for a stranger.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> No current member of the military has protected my freedom. I just want to clear that up. That isn't to say the military hasn't protected my freedom in the past, nor does it mean the military won't protect it in the future.
> By your logic, a hero is somebody who risks their lives for somebody else. That means that every single president, doctor, sewage worker, scientist, etc. is a hero. I will support memorial when he have days honoring every person who puts his life on the line for someone else.
> A hero isn't someone who gets payed to put their life on the line; it's somebody who goes above and beyond their position and station in life to help the lives of others. There are many members of the military who have done this, but they aren't all heros.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> daveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wrong.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 1: 9/11 did not hurt America as a whole. Sorry, but that's the truth. 3000 people is not a significant chunk.
> 
> 2: Iraq and Afghanistan didn't attack us. Al' Qaeda did. Know your facts please.
Click to expand...


You are an idiot. Stop and think about it. If our military were not there, if they were not strong, how long would your rights last?


----------



## Smash_Hits

SFC Ollie said:


> Smash_Hits said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> LadyGunSlinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> Wow, talk about a fucking asshole! If you have to even ask it tells me all I want to know about you. Those who enlist lay their lives on the line for strangers, some who don't deserve it LIKE YOU; to ensure you have the freedom to trash their very service without threat... You can simply thank them. Nothing more heroic than to risk  your life for a stranger.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No current member of the military has protected my freedom. I just want to clear that up. That isn't to say the military hasn't protected my freedom in the past, nor does it mean the military won't protect it in the future.
> By your logic, a hero is somebody who risks their lives for somebody else. That means that every single president, doctor, sewage worker, scientist, etc. is a hero. I will support memorial when he have days honoring every person who puts his life on the line for someone else.
> A hero isn't someone who gets payed to put their life on the line; it's somebody who goes above and beyond their position and station in life to help the lives of others. There are many members of the military who have done this, but they aren't all heros.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> daveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wrong.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 1: 9/11 did not hurt America as a whole. Sorry, but that's the truth. 3000 people is not a significant chunk.
> 
> 2: Iraq and Afghanistan didn't attack us. Al' Qaeda did. Know your facts please.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You are an idiot. Stop and think about it. If our military were not there, if they were not strong, how long would your rights last?
Click to expand...


Uhhh, I'm pretty sure neither Iraq nor Afghanistan really cared about taking my rights away. I've thought about it quite a bit, actually. Two small countries in the Middle East have no chance against a world superpower. There is no way they could take away our rights.


----------



## LadyGunSlinger

Smash_Hits said:


> LadyGunSlinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Smash_Hits said:
> 
> 
> 
> I really, really dislike Memorial Day. Not because I hate the military (not true), nor because I don't think soldiers can't be heroes (also not true), but because I hate the spewing of jingoistic "all soldiers are heroes and they protect our freedom," by all parts of the political spectrum. Now, I want to make it clear that I do not believe soldiers can't be heroes; for example, I consider JFK to be one of the greatest men this country has seen, partly because of his actions in the military. What I am asking, is why all soldiers are automatically heroes? They certainly don't all earn it (US soldiers 'killed Afghan civilians for sport and collected fingers as trophies' | World news | The Guardiran). And don't say it is because they are protecting our freedom, because frankly, they aren't right now. There were wars where they were, but our current conflicts are not intended to protect us.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wow, talk about a fucking asshole! If you have to even ask it tells me all I want to know about you. Those who enlist lay their lives on the line for strangers, some who don't deserve it LIKE YOU; to ensure you have the freedom to trash their very service without threat... You can simply thank them. Nothing more heroic than to risk  your life for a stranger.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> No current member of the military has protected my freedom. I just want to clear that up. That isn't to say the military hasn't protected my freedom in the past, nor does it mean the military won't protect it in the future.
> By your logic, a hero is somebody who risks their lives for somebody else. That means that every single president, doctor, sewage worker, scientist, etc. is a hero. I will support memorial when he have days honoring every person who puts his life on the line for someone else.
> A hero isn't someone who gets payed to put their life on the line; it's somebody who goes above and beyond their position and station in life to help the lives of others. There are many members of the military who have done this, but they aren't all heros.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> daveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wrong.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 1:* 9/11 did not hurt America as a whole. Sorry, but that's the truth. 3000 people is not a significant chunk.*
> 
> 2: Iraq and Afghanistan didn't attack us. Al' Qaeda did. Know your facts please.
Click to expand...



This shit along with your other BS leads me to believe you're not an American.. who the fuck thinks this way but terrorists??


----------



## LadyGunSlinger

Smash_Hits said:


> SFC Ollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Smash_Hits said:
> 
> 
> 
> No current member of the military has protected my freedom. I just want to clear that up. That isn't to say the military hasn't protected my freedom in the past, nor does it mean the military won't protect it in the future.
> By your logic, a hero is somebody who risks their lives for somebody else. That means that every single president, doctor, sewage worker, scientist, etc. is a hero. I will support memorial when he have days honoring every person who puts his life on the line for someone else.
> A hero isn't someone who gets payed to put their life on the line; it's somebody who goes above and beyond their position and station in life to help the lives of others. There are many members of the military who have done this, but they aren't all heros.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 1: 9/11 did not hurt America as a whole. Sorry, but that's the truth. 3000 people is not a significant chunk.
> 
> 2: Iraq and Afghanistan didn't attack us. Al' Qaeda did. Know your facts please.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You are an idiot. Stop and think about it. If our military were not there, if they were not strong, how long would your rights last?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Uhhh, I'm pretty sure neither Iraq nor Afghanistan really cared about taking my rights away. I've thought about it quite a bit, actually. Two small countries in the Middle East have no chance against a world superpower. There is no way they could take away our rights.
Click to expand...


I thought I'd read some dumb shit in my life and then I ran in to you on this message board. You're truly a blockhead.


----------



## Smash_Hits

LadyGunSlinger said:


> Smash_Hits said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> LadyGunSlinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> Wow, talk about a fucking asshole! If you have to even ask it tells me all I want to know about you. Those who enlist lay their lives on the line for strangers, some who don't deserve it LIKE YOU; to ensure you have the freedom to trash their very service without threat... You can simply thank them. Nothing more heroic than to risk  your life for a stranger.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No current member of the military has protected my freedom. I just want to clear that up. That isn't to say the military hasn't protected my freedom in the past, nor does it mean the military won't protect it in the future.
> By your logic, a hero is somebody who risks their lives for somebody else. That means that every single president, doctor, sewage worker, scientist, etc. is a hero. I will support memorial when he have days honoring every person who puts his life on the line for someone else.
> A hero isn't someone who gets payed to put their life on the line; it's somebody who goes above and beyond their position and station in life to help the lives of others. There are many members of the military who have done this, but they aren't all heros.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> daveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wrong.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 1:* 9/11 did not hurt America as a whole. Sorry, but that's the truth. 3000 people is not a significant chunk.*
> 
> 2: Iraq and Afghanistan didn't attack us. Al' Qaeda did. Know your facts please.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> This shit along with your other BS leads me to believe you're not an American.. who the fuck thinks this way but terrorists??
Click to expand...

 9/11 did not hurt America. Period. 3000 dead people is a tragedy, but it is hardly a blow to a country of billions. I realize that this sounds callous, but it is true. 9/11 was an awful moment in American history, but its actual effect on our economy, etc. was nonexistent.


----------



## SFC Ollie

I will try one more time.

Even if there were no conflicts that our troops were involved in, they would still be wearing the uniform and training and being strong and preventing any one from taking your freedoms from you.

Do you think we would be free today if we had a weak military? I'm not talking about Afghanistan or today's Iraq. When we first went up against Iraq they had the fourth largest Military in the world. Think about it.

Without a strong military we better start learning some other languages.... Russian? Chinese? Mexican? Farsi? Without our military any scenario could be possible.


----------



## LadyGunSlinger

Smash_Hits said:


> LadyGunSlinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Smash_Hits said:
> 
> 
> 
> No current member of the military has protected my freedom. I just want to clear that up. That isn't to say the military hasn't protected my freedom in the past, nor does it mean the military won't protect it in the future.
> By your logic, a hero is somebody who risks their lives for somebody else. That means that every single president, doctor, sewage worker, scientist, etc. is a hero. I will support memorial when he have days honoring every person who puts his life on the line for someone else.
> A hero isn't someone who gets payed to put their life on the line; it's somebody who goes above and beyond their position and station in life to help the lives of others. There are many members of the military who have done this, but they aren't all heros.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 1:* 9/11 did not hurt America as a whole. Sorry, but that's the truth. 3000 people is not a significant chunk.*
> 
> 2: Iraq and Afghanistan didn't attack us. Al' Qaeda did. Know your facts please.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This shit along with your other BS leads me to believe you're not an American.. who the fuck thinks this way but terrorists??
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 9/11 did not hurt America. Period. 3000 dead people is a tragedy, but it is hardly a blow to a country of billions. I realize that this sounds callous, but it is true. 9/11 was an awful moment in American history, but its actual effect on our economy, etc. was nonexistent.
Click to expand...


Excuse me, ONE lost American is a terrible blow to our nation and that an enemy penetrated our nation and slaughtered our sons and daughters is an unspeakable crime. You're dirt and not worthy of my time. Fuck off!


----------



## Smash_Hits

SFC Ollie said:


> I will try one more time.
> 
> Even if there were no conflicts that our troops were involved in, they would still be wearing the uniform and training and being strong and preventing any one from taking your freedoms from you.
> 
> Do you think we would be free today if we had a weak military? I'm not talking about Afghanistan or today's Iraq. When we first went up against Iraq they had the fourth largest Military in the world. Think about it.
> 
> Without a strong military we better start learning some other languages.... Russian? Chinese? Mexican? Farsi? Without our military any scenario could be possible.



Just because somebody is in the military does not make them a hero... I don't care if they are protecting my freedom, they are getting PAID. As I said before, I define a hero as somebody who goes above and beyond their position in life, and saves people, with not thought of reward.

I don't know why you think I'm anti-military; I'm pro-military, just not pro-jingoism. I am not a pacifist, I am a staunch believer in the fact that some wars we need to fight (WWII, Civil War, the list goes on). I just don't believe that somebody who gets paid to kill others is a hero. I like the fact that we have a military, but I'm against the stigma around saying all soldiers aren't always heroes all the time.


----------



## ct.griffin

They shouldn't be considered heros. Only a small portion of our military is involved in combat, but everyone is needed to maintain our fighting force. So look at them in whatever light you choose.

The truth about this is veteran should act selflessly in this matter. I don't care if you look at me as a hero or shmuck. I know what I've done and who it's protected whether they agree with me or not. 

The real question.. Are you jealous? Cause as a veteran I'd prefer to do away with Memorial, Veterans, and many other "national holidays" because it reduces productivity as a country. Also the people it's meant to benefit fail to see those benefits. I worked on 3 out 4 veteran day holidays while I was in the Marines. Civilians are spoiled off our blood and sweat with a lazy day.


----------



## SFC Ollie

ct.griffin said:


> They shouldn't be considered heros. Only a small portion of our military is involved in combat, but everyone is needed to maintain our fighting force. So look at them in whatever light you choose.
> 
> The truth about this is veteran should act selflessly in this matter. I don't care if you look at me as a hero or shmuck. I know what I've done and who it's protected whether they agree with me or not.
> 
> The real question.. Are you jealous? Cause as a veteran I'd prefer to do away with Memorial, Veterans, and many other "national holidays" because it reduces productivity as a country. Also the people it's meant to benefit fail to see those benefits. I worked on 3 out 4 veteran day holidays while I was in the Marines. Civilians are spoiled off our blood and sweat with a lazy day.



There are three days which have to do with our Military which no we should never give them up. There is Armed Forces Day which we should celebrate those who are currently wearing the uniform. It should be a day to thank them for the hard work and sacrifices they are making.

The next is Veterans Day. This is a day to thank all Veterans for their past service to the country.

And then we have Memorial Day. What else is there to be said. Mankind has honored their dead for eons......


----------



## MikeK

Trajan said:


> [
> me thinks some reading of the treatys, agreements  and workings of the league of nations etc. between ww1 and 1939 would help you out.
> 
> and-
> 
> "War Is a Racket"
> 
> War Is a Racket - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> plenty of people felt that the banana wars, the Philippines etc etc was just more of the same, just becasue Eisenhower named it so, doesn't mean it didn't ostensibly exist before hand. Its just  a matter of relative size of the resources committed as to who they were fighting.


Of course it's a matter of relative size.  And there is no question that someone profits from every war ever fought.  So you might as well go all the way back to the American Revolution to make that point.  But are you seriously comparing the present situation to that of the Banana Wars and the Philippines Campaign?  

There is no question that there was profiteering back then, and there is no doubt that political science students along with those who read and comprehended a book written by a former Commandant of The Marine Corps understood that somebody was making a buck.  But are you comparing the Banana Wars to Vietnam and the Philippines Campaign to Iraq and Afghanistan?

When Butler wrote his book the problem was beginning to manifest.  By the time Eisenhower called attention to it the situation was serious.  Today, owing to the phenomenal growth of our population and economy and relative dimension of our military engagements, the problem is critical and represents a menace to our national stability.  



> Q- did you sppt. our actions in Afghanistan when we went in?


A better question would be whether I believed Bush's assertion that the military operation he was mounting would be a brief venture into Afghanistan for the purpose of bringing those responsible for the 9/11 attack to justice.  The answer is I wouldn't believe George W. Bush if he said, hello.  I saw it as an incipient opportunity to direct billions of dollars to his "base" of corporate opportunists and as of today it is still going on.  

A better answer would be I would have supported it if I had cause to believe it but I didn't.


----------



## The Gadfly

Smash_Hits said:


> LadyGunSlinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Smash_Hits said:
> 
> 
> 
> I really, really dislike Memorial Day. Not because I hate the military (not true), nor because I don't think soldiers can't be heroes (also not true), but because I hate the spewing of jingoistic "all soldiers are heroes and they protect our freedom," by all parts of the political spectrum. Now, I want to make it clear that I do not believe soldiers can't be heroes; for example, I consider JFK to be one of the greatest men this country has seen, partly because of his actions in the military. What I am asking, is why all soldiers are automatically heroes? They certainly don't all earn it (US soldiers 'killed Afghan civilians for sport and collected fingers as trophies' | World news | The Guardiran). And don't say it is because they are protecting our freedom, because frankly, they aren't right now. There were wars where they were, but our current conflicts are not intended to protect us.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wow, talk about a fucking asshole! If you have to even ask it tells me all I want to know about you. Those who enlist lay their lives on the line for strangers, some who don't deserve it LIKE YOU; to ensure you have the freedom to trash their very service without threat... You can simply thank them. Nothing more heroic than to risk  your life for a stranger.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> No current member of the military has protected my freedom. I just want to clear that up. That isn't to say the military hasn't protected my freedom in the past, nor does it mean the military won't protect it in the future.
> By your logic, a hero is somebody who risks their lives for somebody else. That means that every single president, doctor, sewage worker, scientist, etc. is a hero. I will support memorial when he have days honoring every person who puts his life on the line for someone else.
> A hero isn't someone who gets payed to put their life on the line; it's somebody who goes above and beyond their position and station in life to help the lives of others. There are many members of the military who have done this, but they aren't all heros.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> daveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wrong.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 1: 9/11 did not hurt America as a whole. Sorry, but that's the truth. 3000 people is not a significant chunk.
> 
> 2: Iraq and Afghanistan didn't attack us. Al' Qaeda did. Know your facts please.
Click to expand...


To start with, you really don't get what Memorial Day is about, at all. It is not about living vets-we have another day for that; it's called Veterans' Day, and it's in November, remember? It's not about those currently serving either, nor is it a celebration of any particular war, whether it's one you or anyone else likes, or not. *This is about honoring ALL those service members, from the American Revolution onward, who have given their lives in the service of this nation. That's it. Period.* See if you can get that through your thick skull, your self-righteous arrogance, and your preconceived ideas, not to mention the political dogma you regurgitate and swallow again on cue, like a dog returning to its vomit. If you cannot bring yourself to respect the living, for God's sake have the decency to honor the dead; because if it weren't for their sacrifice, neither you nor we would have the freedom to have this discussion. We might not have any rights at all. There are plenty of countries around the world, that will lock you up or worse, for saying what you are allowed to say freely in America (and that last includes the democracies of Europe).


----------



## tallmike

Smash_Hits said:


> I really, really dislike Memorial Day. Not because I hate the military (not true), nor because I don't think soldiers can't be heroes (also not true), but because I hate the spewing of jingoistic "all soldiers are heroes and they protect our freedom," by all parts of the political spectrum. Now, I want to make it clear that I do not believe soldiers can't be heroes; for example, I consider JFK to be one of the greatest men this country has seen, partly because of his actions in the military. What I am asking, is why all soldiers are automatically heroes? They certainly don't all earn it (US soldiers 'killed Afghan civilians for sport and collected fingers as trophies' | World news | The Guardian). And don't say it is because they are protecting our freedom, because frankly, they aren't right now. There were wars where they were, but our current conflicts are not intended to protect us.



I don't have the time to read through 7 pages of posts to see if anyone has made this point yet, sorry if I am repeating someone.

Memorial Day is to remember those who died in defense of our nation and its policies.  Whether you agree with the conflict they died in, or agree that the conflict was to defend our nation is not important.  They died serving our nation and carrying out the policies of those we elect to make those decisions.  Those in the military do not get to choose the conflict that kills them, they sign up to do whatever is asked of them (legally) during the term of their contract.  

Perhaps you don't like Veterans Day, thats the day set aside to honor all veterans.  Memorial Day is not the same thing.


----------



## ct.griffin

SFC Ollie said:


> ct.griffin said:
> 
> 
> 
> They shouldn't be considered heros. Only a small portion of our military is involved in combat, but everyone is needed to maintain our fighting force. So look at them in whatever light you choose.
> 
> The truth about this is veteran should act selflessly in this matter. I don't care if you look at me as a hero or shmuck. I know what I've done and who it's protected whether they agree with me or not.
> 
> The real question.. Are you jealous? Cause as a veteran I'd prefer to do away with Memorial, Veterans, and many other "national holidays" because it reduces productivity as a country. Also the people it's meant to benefit fail to see those benefits. I worked on 3 out 4 veteran day holidays while I was in the Marines. Civilians are spoiled off our blood and sweat with a lazy day.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There are three days which have to do with our Military which no we should never give them up. There is Armed Forces Day which we should celebrate those who are currently wearing the uniform. It should be a day to thank them for the hard work and sacrifices they are making.
> 
> The next is Veterans Day. This is a day to thank all Veterans for their past service to the country.
> 
> And then we have Memorial Day. What else is there to be said. Mankind has honored their dead for eons......
Click to expand...

Well these days are no longer used to do so. When america feels it wants to honor veterans; provide them proper VA care, job opportunity, and better education benefits. 

I don't need a day off.


----------



## Smash_Hits

The Gadfly said:


> Smash_Hits said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> LadyGunSlinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> Wow, talk about a fucking asshole! If you have to even ask it tells me all I want to know about you. Those who enlist lay their lives on the line for strangers, some who don't deserve it LIKE YOU; to ensure you have the freedom to trash their very service without threat... You can simply thank them. Nothing more heroic than to risk  your life for a stranger.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No current member of the military has protected my freedom. I just want to clear that up. That isn't to say the military hasn't protected my freedom in the past, nor does it mean the military won't protect it in the future.
> By your logic, a hero is somebody who risks their lives for somebody else. That means that every single president, doctor, sewage worker, scientist, etc. is a hero. I will support memorial when he have days honoring every person who puts his life on the line for someone else.
> A hero isn't someone who gets payed to put their life on the line; it's somebody who goes above and beyond their position and station in life to help the lives of others. There are many members of the military who have done this, but they aren't all heros.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> daveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wrong.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 1: 9/11 did not hurt America as a whole. Sorry, but that's the truth. 3000 people is not a significant chunk.
> 
> 2: Iraq and Afghanistan didn't attack us. Al' Qaeda did. Know your facts please.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> To start with, you really don't get what Memorial Day is about, at all. It is not about living vets-we have another day for that; it's called Veterans' Day, and it's in November, remember? It's not about those currently serving either, nor is it a celebration of any particular war, whether it's one you or anyone else likes, or not. *This is about honoring ALL those service members, from the American Revolution onward, who have given their lives in the service of this nation. That's it. Period.* See if you can get that through your thick skull, your self-righteous arrogance, and your preconceived ideas, not to mention the political dogma you regurgitate and swallow again on cue, like a dog returning to its vomit. If you cannot bring yourself to respect the living, for God's sake have the decency to honor the dead; because if it weren't for their sacrifice, neither you nor we would have the freedom to have this discussion. We might not have any rights at all. There are plenty of countries around the world, that will lock you up or worse, for saying what you are allowed to say freely in America (and that last includes the democracies of Europe).
Click to expand...



You really should have read my other posts before you posted this. I don't hate Memorial Day (and I understand it honors dead soldiers, please don't be so presumptuous) because of its subject, I hate it because there aren't any other days that honor just as worthy people who have died in other professions (not just people like doctors, but the people that do awful, menial work). I understand that we have Labor Day, but nobody really knows or cares about the origins of it.
You really don't have to be so vicious. It just makes you look like an idiot, especially when you don't know what you are talking about.


----------



## LadyGunSlinger

The Gadfly said:


> Smash_Hits said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> LadyGunSlinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> Wow, talk about a fucking asshole! If you have to even ask it tells me all I want to know about you. Those who enlist lay their lives on the line for strangers, some who don't deserve it LIKE YOU; to ensure you have the freedom to trash their very service without threat... You can simply thank them. Nothing more heroic than to risk  your life for a stranger.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No current member of the military has protected my freedom. I just want to clear that up. That isn't to say the military hasn't protected my freedom in the past, nor does it mean the military won't protect it in the future.
> By your logic, a hero is somebody who risks their lives for somebody else. That means that every single president, doctor, sewage worker, scientist, etc. is a hero. I will support memorial when he have days honoring every person who puts his life on the line for someone else.
> A hero isn't someone who gets payed to put their life on the line; it's somebody who goes above and beyond their position and station in life to help the lives of others. There are many members of the military who have done this, but they aren't all heros.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> daveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wrong.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 1: 9/11 did not hurt America as a whole. Sorry, but that's the truth. 3000 people is not a significant chunk.
> 
> 2: Iraq and Afghanistan didn't attack us. Al' Qaeda did. Know your facts please.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> To start with, you really don't get what Memorial Day is about, at all. It is not about living vets-we have another day for that; it's called Veterans' Day, and it's in November, remember? It's not about those currently serving either, nor is it a celebration of any particular war, whether it's one you or anyone else likes, or not. *This is about honoring ALL those service members, from the American Revolution onward, who have given their lives in the service of this nation. That's it. Period.* See if you can get that through your thick skull, your self-righteous arrogance, and your preconceived ideas, not to mention the political dogma you regurgitate and swallow again on cue, like a dog returning to its vomit. If you cannot bring yourself to respect the living, for God's sake have the decency to honor the dead; because if it weren't for their sacrifice, neither you nor we would have the freedom to have this discussion. We might not have any rights at all. There are plenty of countries around the world, that will lock you up or worse, for saying what you are allowed to say freely in America (and that last includes the democracies of Europe).
Click to expand...

Damn fine post and well said!


----------



## JBeukema

daveman said:


> It's been explained countless times, moron.


When was this?


----------



## Smash_Hits

JBeukema said:


> daveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> It's been explained countless times, moron.
> 
> 
> 
> When was this?
Click to expand...


Don't you know? These idiots can never explain anything. They just yell at you about being anti-American, or they cal you gay.


----------



## JBeukema

percysunshine said:


> JBeukema said:
> 
> 
> 
> Putting on a uniform doesn't suddenly make a man a devil or a saint. Honour and dishonour come with a man's own actions and character, not from the clothes he wears.
> 
> Some bring honour to their uniforms and some brings dishonour and infamy.
> 
> But this thread will be deleted just like the last time I pointed this out- god forbid we put away the broad brushes and judge men as individuals...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That argument would have worked when there was a draft, and it was not a volunteer service.
> 
> It changed, like a gazillion years ago
Click to expand...

1) Oh? So nobody who joined willingly was at Abu Graib or in the kill teams?

2) It was more like 50 years ago, when we last saw the draft


----------



## The Gadfly

Smash_Hits said:


> The Gadfly said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Smash_Hits said:
> 
> 
> 
> No current member of the military has protected my freedom. I just want to clear that up. That isn't to say the military hasn't protected my freedom in the past, nor does it mean the military won't protect it in the future.
> By your logic, a hero is somebody who risks their lives for somebody else. That means that every single president, doctor, sewage worker, scientist, etc. is a hero. I will support memorial when he have days honoring every person who puts his life on the line for someone else.
> A hero isn't someone who gets payed to put their life on the line; it's somebody who goes above and beyond their position and station in life to help the lives of others. There are many members of the military who have done this, but they aren't all heros.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 1: 9/11 did not hurt America as a whole. Sorry, but that's the truth. 3000 people is not a significant chunk.
> 
> 2: Iraq and Afghanistan didn't attack us. Al' Qaeda did. Know your facts please.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> To start with, you really don't get what Memorial Day is about, at all. It is not about living vets-we have another day for that; it's called Veterans' Day, and it's in November, remember? It's not about those currently serving either, nor is it a celebration of any particular war, whether it's one you or anyone else likes, or not. *This is about honoring ALL those service members, from the American Revolution onward, who have given their lives in the service of this nation. That's it. Period.* See if you can get that through your thick skull, your self-righteous arrogance, and your preconceived ideas, not to mention the political dogma you regurgitate and swallow again on cue, like a dog returning to its vomit. If you cannot bring yourself to respect the living, for God's sake have the decency to honor the dead; because if it weren't for their sacrifice, neither you nor we would have the freedom to have this discussion. We might not have any rights at all. There are plenty of countries around the world, that will lock you up or worse, for saying what you are allowed to say freely in America (and that last includes the democracies of Europe).
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> You really should have read my other posts before you posted this. I don't hate Memorial Day (and I understand it honors dead soldiers, please don't be so presumptuous) because of its subject, I hate it because there aren't any other days that honor just as worthy people who have died in other professions (not just people like doctors, but the people that do awful, menial work). I understand that we have Labor Day, but nobody really knows or cares about the origins of it.
> You really don't have to be so vicious. It just makes you look like an idiot, especially when you don't know what you are talking about.
Click to expand...


You still don't get it, so let me try to spell it out for you. Get off this argument about who is or is not a hero.It's bullshit. I didn't go to Vietnam to be a hero; neither did anyone else I knew. I'm pretty sure, that no one went off to any other war to be a hero either. I've said it elsewhere, and I'll say it again-I have never known a single combat veteran who thought he was a hero, not one (and that includes some with some pretty impressive decorations for valor).

You got one thing right; America is a nation of quiet heroes. Some put their lives on the line for others on a regular basis. Some just give tirelessly of their time and talent to give something back to the country or their community. Some get paid (often less than they could make doing something else); some do it for nothing. Most of them want no recognition in return. They build houses for those in need, the man the soup kitchens and homeless shelters, take meals to the elderly. They coach little league, teach kids to read, work at free clinics. They are first responders- law enforcement, the local rescue squad, the volunteer or professional firefighter; and you might be surprised to know that some of them are vets, too. There's a former infantry officer on this board, who's in medical school; he's going to be a doctor.I've been an EMT/paramedic and volunteer firefighter. There are people right now working in Alabama, from college students to everyday folks, who came from all over to help the people recover from the recent tornadoes. Not one of them thinks they are a hero, either. There are so many, that if we took the time to honor them all, we'd spend the whole year doing nothing else. 

You know, in spite of all the greed and meanness that characterizes our current culture, the mere fact that such people exist, in such numbers, gives me hope that the America I fought for is still alive; still the most giving and generous nation there is; and so long as that is so, then the dead we honor today have not fallen in vain.


----------



## JBeukema

Smash_Hits said:


> 1: 9/11 did not hurt America as a whole. Sorry, but that's the truth. 3000 people is not a significant chunk.



It has never been about body counts

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yEXphFgYryE]YouTube - &#x202a;Rachel Maddow War on terror fought on bin Ladens terms Part1&#x202c;&rlm;[/ame]

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q1PjtXkSbew]YouTube - &#x202a;Rachel Maddow War on terror fought on bin Ladens terms Part2&#x202c;&rlm;[/ame]


----------



## HUGGY

*Why are soldiers automatically considered heroes?*

Duh!  Cuz they have guns ya twit.  A good general rule to follow is to be real nice and supportive-like towards people with guns.


----------



## daveman

Smash_Hits said:


> daveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wrong.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 1: 9/11 did not hurt America as a whole. Sorry, but that's the truth. 3000 people is not a significant chunk.
Click to expand...

Wow.  What a retard.


Smash_Hits said:


> 2: Iraq and Afghanistan didn't attack us. Al' Qaeda did. Know your facts please.


I didn't say they attacked us, you imbecile.  You claimed they had no potential to harm us.  If 19 fanatics not affiliated with a nation-state can attack us, fanatics associated with fanatical nation-states certainly can.


----------



## daveman

JBeukema said:


> daveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> It's been explained countless times, moron.
> 
> 
> 
> When was this?
Click to expand...

Read the Conspiracy Theory forum.  Idiot.


----------



## daveman

Smash_Hits said:


> 3000 dead people is a tragedy, but it is hardly a blow to a country of billions.


How many Americans do you think there are, moron?


----------



## 007

JBeukema said:


> daveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hi, you have received -163 reputation points from daveman.
> Reputation was given for *this* post.
> 
> Comment:
> Moron.
> 
> Regards,
> daveman
> 
> Note: This is an automated message.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So... you _can't_ explain building seven, coward?
> 
> [ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QlM8Sui6-X0]YouTube - &#x202a;Cheney gave STAND DOWN ORDER&#x202c;&rlm;[/ame]
Click to expand...


Hoooo - Leeeee shit... and people call us that don't believe obama can legally be President crazy... fuck... this shit here makes us all look like like guardians of the truth!


----------



## JBeukema

JBeukema said:


> daveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> Is that why you post every neg rep you get?
> 
> 
> 
> Just exposing the cowards who attack me behind the scenes because I judge men as individuals.
Click to expand...




			
				Pale Rider said:
			
		

> Hi, you have received -278 reputation points from Pale Rider.
> Reputation was given for *this* post.





For example...


----------



## JBeukema

Pale Rider said:


> JBeukema said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> daveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hi, you have received -163 reputation points from daveman.
> Reputation was given for *this* post.
> 
> Comment:
> Moron.
> 
> Regards,
> daveman
> 
> Note: This is an automated message.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So... you _can't_ explain building seven, coward?
> 
> [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QlM8Sui6-X0"]YouTube - &#x202a;Cheney gave STAND DOWN ORDER&#x202c;&rlm;[/ame]
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Hoooo - Leeeee shit... and people call us that don't believe obama can legally be President crazy... fuck... this shit here makes us all look like like guardians of the truth!
Click to expand...


So you admit birtherism is quite the opposite of truthfulness? Interesting...


----------



## MikeK

The Gadfly said:


> You still don't get it, so let me try to spell it out for you. Get off this argument about who is or is not a hero.It's bullshit.[...]


Rather than quarrel about who is or isn't a hero I believe the intent of this discussion is to properly define what heroism is and is not.  At this stage in the argument it occurs to me that a component missing from the definition is the reason for such heated disagreement and I believe that component is an _emotional connection_ to the word.  

When Pearl Harbor was bombed I was too young to comprehend the nature of war but I do have some fragmented recollection of the effect it had on the atmosphere of my own environment.  That effect was fearful excitement and dark anticipation.  

My father and uncle left and my mother, my aunt and my grandmother cried a lot.  Men from all the families around us left.  As time went on the fear became more pronounced and I recall the evening ritual of listening to Gabriel Heatter's War News on the big wooden radio in our parlor.  I don't think I intelligently understood what he talked about but I was in tune with the emotions his words evoked in the adults who listened intently.  There was fear and apprehension.  And in the early stages of the war the news was almost always bad.  

The war brought about many changes in everyone's daily lives.  There was rationing of food and gasoline (for those who had cars).  Ladies could not get stockings, any kind of metal things were hard to come by and there were daily scrap drives.  Kids like my brother and me were given buckets at school with which we went around to stores and  knocked on doors to collect metal and rubber which was picked up next day by men in trucks.  

There were blackouts and searchlights in the night sky during the frequent air-raid drills.  My aunt took a job working nights at the Brooklyn Navy Yard where she installed cots in troop compartments of warships.  We were given booklets at school and every day the teachers collected dimes and issued "defense stamps" to be pasted in them.  When the books were filled they were exchanged for $25 "War Bonds" (now U.S. Savings Bonds).  

Every home that had family serving overseas had a little flag in their front window with a blue star for every member serving and a gold star for every member killed or missing.  The number of gold stars increased as time went on and I remember the fear people had of the Western Union lady who brought the black-bordered telegrams.  They hated to see her coming.  

Every minute of every day held some level of conscious awareness that there were powerful armies which were capable of invading and occupying our country.  We missed our fathers, uncles, brothers and cousins every day but much moreso on days like Thanksgiving and Christmas.  Those were the worst days.  Lots of sadness and crying.  The most compelling awareness was that the only thing protecting us from the Nazis and the Japs were our soldiers and sailors who were being killed every day and every night to keep us safe at home.

I could say much more about what I'm able to recall of the War years but the point I'm trying to make is that we all were touched by it in very real, tangible and meaningful ways.  It affected all of our lives in some way, every day.  The fighting was always in our thoughts and we all experienced apprehension.

All of that and much more comprised a powerful emotional component that imparted a clear and unequivocal meaning to the word _hero._  Our warriors were heroes who protected us from very real and very menacing enemies who had planes, ships and vast, well-trained armies.  

That was war.  And there was no question about what heroes are, and why.


----------



## JamesInFlorida

Politicians (both parties), are the ones who hide behind the military by calling them heroes. The soldiers don't act in this way. If somebody think they do, they obviously don't know many people who've served before.

But there are obviously other ways to be a hero than just the military. Volunteer for something you care about-you'll be amazed at how rewarding it is. It's much more rewarding than normal work.


----------



## LadyGunSlinger

It's pathetic how in our nation which fought for her Independence and bled the battlefields of many wars crimson, we cannot set aside ONE FUCKING DAY, JUST ONE, to honor our fallen without some leftist douchebag bitching about it. I'm so damn tired of you Anti-American, Anti-military liberals.. No wonder you worship DingleBarry.. all of you think like he does.


----------



## JamesInFlorida

LadyGunSlinger said:


> It's pathetic how in our nation which fought for her Independence and bled the battlefields of many wars crimson, we cannot set aside ONE FUCKING DAY, JUST ONE, to honor our fallen without some leftist douchebag bitching about it. I'm so damn tired of you Anti-American, Anti-military liberals.. No wonder you worship DingleBarry.. all of you think like he does.



Here are all the people who've served that I know in my family:

grandfather (ww2, korea, vietnam, and for the record voted for Obama)-buried in Arlington, along with my grandmother
other grandfather (ww2)
uncle (vietnam)
father (vietnam)
cousin (Afghanistan)

So based on the fact that I have two close family members of mine buried there-I can't speak on behalf of all families with those buried in Arlington, but I can speak for myself-what Obama did, didn't offend me in the slightest.

Not to mention the countless family friends, and friends who've served before. 

I know many people who've served in Afghanistan and Iraq-including a friend of mine who never came home, and left a broken family, including a new wife of just under a year. They're a Democratic family. I would love to see you post right here for everybody to see that they're "anti-American". I'd love to see you say it to their faces-but I bet you don't have the courage. 

So answer the simple question: was he anti-American? Yes or no?

ANYBODY who disrespects the service of a soldier because of their personal ideas/beliefs is the real anti-American.


----------



## LadyGunSlinger

JamesInFlorida said:


> LadyGunSlinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> It's pathetic how in our nation which fought for her Independence and bled the battlefields of many wars crimson, we cannot set aside ONE FUCKING DAY, JUST ONE, to honor our fallen without some leftist douchebag bitching about it. I'm so damn tired of you Anti-American, Anti-military liberals.. No wonder you worship DingleBarry.. all of you think like he does.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here are all the people who've served that I know in my family:
> 
> grandfather (ww2, korea, vietnam, and for the record voted for Obama)-buried in Arlington, along with my grandmother
> other grandfather (ww2)
> uncle (vietnam)
> father (vietnam)
> cousin (Afghanistan)
> 
> So based on the fact that I have two close family members of mine buried there-I can't speak on behalf of all families with those buried in Arlington, but I can speak for myself-what Obama did, didn't offend me in the slightest.
> 
> Not to mention the countless family friends, and friends who've served before.
> 
> I know many people who've served in Afghanistan and Iraq-including a friend of mine who never came home, and left a broken family, including a new wife of just under a year. They're a Democratic family. I would love to see you post right here for everybody to see that they're "anti-American". I'd love to see you say it to their faces-but I bet you don't have the courage.
> 
> So answer the simple question: was he anti-American? Yes or no?
> 
> ANYBODY who disrespects the service of a soldier because of their personal ideas/beliefs is the real anti-American.
Click to expand...

 Note where I said ALL LIBERALS... the jerkwad OP is the kind of liberal I'm referring to.. The one who HATES Memorial Day and thinks 9-11 was no big deal so taking that fucking chip on your shoulder and shove it straight up your ass. ANYONE regardless of party affiliation who thinks like that is an ASSHOLE and anti-American IMO.. Don't like it?? TOUGH SHIT.. Don't read my posts.


----------



## SFC Ollie

LadyGunSlinger said:


> JamesInFlorida said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> LadyGunSlinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> It's pathetic how in our nation which fought for her Independence and bled the battlefields of many wars crimson, we cannot set aside ONE FUCKING DAY, JUST ONE, to honor our fallen without some leftist douchebag bitching about it. I'm so damn tired of you Anti-American, Anti-military liberals.. No wonder you worship DingleBarry.. all of you think like he does.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here are all the people who've served that I know in my family:
> 
> grandfather (ww2, korea, vietnam, and for the record voted for Obama)-buried in Arlington, along with my grandmother
> other grandfather (ww2)
> uncle (vietnam)
> father (vietnam)
> cousin (Afghanistan)
> 
> So based on the fact that I have two close family members of mine buried there-I can't speak on behalf of all families with those buried in Arlington, but I can speak for myself-what Obama did, didn't offend me in the slightest.
> 
> Not to mention the countless family friends, and friends who've served before.
> 
> I know many people who've served in Afghanistan and Iraq-including a friend of mine who never came home, and left a broken family, including a new wife of just under a year. They're a Democratic family. I would love to see you post right here for everybody to see that they're "anti-American". I'd love to see you say it to their faces-but I bet you don't have the courage.
> 
> So answer the simple question: was he anti-American? Yes or no?
> 
> ANYBODY who disrespects the service of a soldier because of their personal ideas/beliefs is the real anti-American.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Note where I said ALL LIBERALS... the jerkwad OP is the kind of liberal I'm referring to.. The one who HATES Memorial Day and thinks 9-11 was no big deal so taking that fucking chip on your shoulder and shove it straight up your ass. ANYONE regardless of party affiliation who thinks like that is an ASSHOLE and anti-American IMO.. Don't like it?? TOUGH SHIT.. Don't read my posts.
Click to expand...


She's right.


----------



## JamesInFlorida

LadyGunSlinger said:


> JamesInFlorida said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> LadyGunSlinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> It's pathetic how in our nation which fought for her Independence and bled the battlefields of many wars crimson, we cannot set aside ONE FUCKING DAY, JUST ONE, to honor our fallen without some leftist douchebag bitching about it. I'm so damn tired of you Anti-American, Anti-military liberals.. No wonder you worship DingleBarry.. all of you think like he does.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here are all the people who've served that I know in my family:
> 
> grandfather (ww2, korea, vietnam, and for the record voted for Obama)-buried in Arlington, along with my grandmother
> other grandfather (ww2)
> uncle (vietnam)
> father (vietnam)
> cousin (Afghanistan)
> 
> So based on the fact that I have two close family members of mine buried there-I can't speak on behalf of all families with those buried in Arlington, but I can speak for myself-what Obama did, didn't offend me in the slightest.
> 
> Not to mention the countless family friends, and friends who've served before.
> 
> I know many people who've served in Afghanistan and Iraq-including a friend of mine who never came home, and left a broken family, including a new wife of just under a year. They're a Democratic family. I would love to see you post right here for everybody to see that they're "anti-American". I'd love to see you say it to their faces-but I bet you don't have the courage.
> 
> So answer the simple question: was he anti-American? Yes or no?
> 
> ANYBODY who disrespects the service of a soldier because of their personal ideas/beliefs is the real anti-American.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Note where I said ALL LIBERALS... the jerkwad OP is the kind of liberal I'm referring to.. The one who HATES Memorial Day and thinks 9-11 was no big deal so taking that fucking chip on your shoulder and shove it straight up your ass. ANYONE regardless of party affiliation who thinks like that is an ASSHOLE and anti-American IMO.. Don't like it?? TOUGH SHIT.. Don't read my posts.
Click to expand...


I agree that anybody who thinks that memorial day is pointless, or that 9/11 wasn't a big deal is an asshole (which btw 9/11, obviously was an attack on a very liberal city). 

With that said, you just had to throw in "leftist" douche-couldn't control yourself just to refer to him as an asshole, or douche, and leave it at that? You just had to label him-because of your own political agenda.


----------



## JamesInFlorida

SFC Ollie said:


> LadyGunSlinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JamesInFlorida said:
> 
> 
> 
> Here are all the people who've served that I know in my family:
> 
> grandfather (ww2, korea, vietnam, and for the record voted for Obama)-buried in Arlington, along with my grandmother
> other grandfather (ww2)
> uncle (vietnam)
> father (vietnam)
> cousin (Afghanistan)
> 
> So based on the fact that I have two close family members of mine buried there-I can't speak on behalf of all families with those buried in Arlington, but I can speak for myself-what Obama did, didn't offend me in the slightest.
> 
> Not to mention the countless family friends, and friends who've served before.
> 
> I know many people who've served in Afghanistan and Iraq-including a friend of mine who never came home, and left a broken family, including a new wife of just under a year. They're a Democratic family. I would love to see you post right here for everybody to see that they're "anti-American". I'd love to see you say it to their faces-but I bet you don't have the courage.
> 
> So answer the simple question: was he anti-American? Yes or no?
> 
> ANYBODY who disrespects the service of a soldier because of their personal ideas/beliefs is the real anti-American.
> 
> 
> 
> Note where I said ALL LIBERALS... the jerkwad OP is the kind of liberal I'm referring to.. The one who HATES Memorial Day and thinks 9-11 was no big deal so taking that fucking chip on your shoulder and shove it straight up your ass. ANYONE regardless of party affiliation who thinks like that is an ASSHOLE and anti-American IMO.. Don't like it?? TOUGH SHIT.. Don't read my posts.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> She's right.
Click to expand...


I agree with what she says in this post-but she had to go out of her way as to calling referring to the OP as a "leftist", and a liberal several times. What she says in the 2nd post (that regardless of someone's polticial affiliation), is true. But then why does she go overboard in labeling in the post directly before that?


----------



## LadyGunSlinger

JamesInFlorida said:


> LadyGunSlinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JamesInFlorida said:
> 
> 
> 
> Here are all the people who've served that I know in my family:
> 
> grandfather (ww2, korea, vietnam, and for the record voted for Obama)-buried in Arlington, along with my grandmother
> other grandfather (ww2)
> uncle (vietnam)
> father (vietnam)
> cousin (Afghanistan)
> 
> So based on the fact that I have two close family members of mine buried there-I can't speak on behalf of all families with those buried in Arlington, but I can speak for myself-what Obama did, didn't offend me in the slightest.
> 
> Not to mention the countless family friends, and friends who've served before.
> 
> I know many people who've served in Afghanistan and Iraq-including a friend of mine who never came home, and left a broken family, including a new wife of just under a year. They're a Democratic family. I would love to see you post right here for everybody to see that they're "anti-American". I'd love to see you say it to their faces-but I bet you don't have the courage.
> 
> So answer the simple question: was he anti-American? Yes or no?
> 
> ANYBODY who disrespects the service of a soldier because of their personal ideas/beliefs is the real anti-American.
> 
> 
> 
> Note where I said ALL LIBERALS... the jerkwad OP is the kind of liberal I'm referring to.. The one who HATES Memorial Day and thinks 9-11 was no big deal so taking that fucking chip on your shoulder and shove it straight up your ass. ANYONE regardless of party affiliation who thinks like that is an ASSHOLE and anti-American IMO.. Don't like it?? TOUGH SHIT.. Don't read my posts.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I agree that anybody who thinks that memorial day is pointless, or that 9/11 wasn't a big deal is an asshole (which btw 9/11, obviously was an attack on a very liberal city).
> 
> With that said, you just had to throw in "leftist" douche-couldn't control yourself just to refer to him as an asshole, or douche, and leave it at that? You just had to label him-because of your own political agenda.
Click to expand...


He is a leftist douchebag.. GO TO HIS PAGE. He came to mine and left remarks on my wall so I returned the favor. HE'S A PROUD PROGRESSIVE. Now run and crawl back under the rock you slimed beneath from.


----------



## The Gadfly

MikeK said:


> The Gadfly said:
> 
> 
> 
> You still don't get it, so let me try to spell it out for you. Get off this argument about who is or is not a hero.It's bullshit.[...]
> 
> 
> 
> Rather than quarrel about who is or isn't a hero I believe the intent of this discussion is to properly define what heroism is and is not.  At this stage in the argument it occurs to me that a component missing from the definition is the reason for such heated disagreement and I believe that component is an _emotional connection_ to the word.
> 
> When Pearl Harbor was bombed I was too young to comprehend the nature of war but I do have some fragmented recollection of the effect it had on the atmosphere of my own environment.  That effect was fearful excitement and dark anticipation.
> 
> My father and uncle left and my mother, my aunt and my grandmother cried a lot.  Men from all the families around us left.  As time went on the fear became more pronounced and I recall the evening ritual of listening to Gabriel Heatter's War News on the big wooden radio in our parlor.  I don't think I intelligently understood what he talked about but I was in tune with the emotions his words evoked in the adults who listened intently.  There was fear and apprehension.  And in the early stages of the war the news was almost always bad.
> 
> The war brought about many changes in everyone's daily lives.  There was rationing of food and gasoline (for those who had cars).  Ladies could not get stockings, any kind of metal things were hard to come by and there were daily scrap drives.  Kids like my brother and me were given buckets at school with which we went around to stores and  knocked on doors to collect metal and rubber which was picked up next day by men in trucks.
> 
> There were blackouts and searchlights in the night sky during the frequent air-raid drills.  My aunt took a job working nights at the Brooklyn Navy Yard where she installed cots in troop compartments of warships.  We were given booklets at school and every day the teachers collected dimes and issued "defense stamps" to be pasted in them.  When the books were filled they were exchanged for $25 "War Bonds" (now U.S. Savings Bonds).
> 
> Every home that had family serving overseas had a little flag in their front window with a blue star for every member serving and a gold star for every member killed or missing.  The number of gold stars increased as time went on and I remember the fear people had of the Western Union lady who brought the black-bordered telegrams.  They hated to see her coming.
> 
> Every minute of every day held some level of conscious awareness that there were powerful armies which were capable of invading and occupying our country.  We missed our fathers, uncles, brothers and cousins every day but much moreso on days like Thanksgiving and Christmas.  Those were the worst days.  Lots of sadness and crying.  The most compelling awareness was that the only thing protecting us from the Nazis and the Japs were our soldiers and sailors who were being killed every day and every night to keep us safe at home.
> 
> I could say much more about what I'm able to recall of the War years but the point I'm trying to make is that we all were touched by it in very real, tangible and meaningful ways.  It affected all of our lives in some way, every day.  The fighting was always in our thoughts and we all experienced apprehension.
> 
> All of that and much more comprised a powerful emotional component that imparted a clear and unequivocal meaning to the word _hero._  Our warriors were heroes who protected us from very real and very menacing enemies who had planes, ships and vast, well-trained armies.
> 
> That was war.  And there was no question about what heroes are, and why.
Click to expand...

That was also a very different time, Mike; not necessarily better or worse, just simpler.A lot has happened since then, not least the change in our popular culture that has popularized the anti-hero, or at the least, the hero badly flawed. I suspect those who fully fit the romanticized "hero image" of earlier times have always been few to begin with; now, I don't know that many Americans would embrace the concept.

A culture that tries (sometimes to extremes) to be "totally egalitarian", a culture of "I'm as good as you", has little room for heroes, romanticized or otherwise. Our current age seems to me, to scorn greatness, and embrace mediocrity. The destructive fury of the sixties, has, I fear, not totally spent itself yet. An awful lot of Americans now don't want to "look up to" anything or anyone. It's the same with states men; we haven't any, because we tear them down before they get that far.FDR or JFK could not exist today; this society would tear them apart for their personal flaws. Now, a hero had better be god-like perfect, or be gone.

The problem of course, is that is not what heroes are. I'd define a hero (based on those whose actions I have personally seen), as mostly otherwise ordinary individuals who managed to do something very extraordinary in an extraordinary situation. That has probably always been so, but in a time you and I can recall, we used to overlook the ordinary human foibles  (at least of the greatest of them), and make them larger than life. We don't do that now; hell, we even go back in history and try to debunk and demystify the heroes of the past. We call this "honesty" but is it? and If it is, is it a good thing? On the one hand, we as a society act as if we're desperate for inspiration; on the other, we cynically cut anything or anyone who might actually give us some off at the knees, the better to bring them down to our own level.

We've done the same with our country; national pride is now called "jingoism", and Patriotism (even the real kind) is often scorned. Some say this makes us a wiser and better, "more mature" nation. I'm not so sure.That isn't what made us great; what made us great, is that our national spirit was one of youthful exuberance, and if it was at times brash, loud, immodest and even rude, it was also daring and bold, and unafraid to act big, and dream big and do big. Now, we're more careful, less rambunctious, and while that may endear us to (or placate) the nations that both envy and hate what we have accomplished (and envy and hate they do), we've gone from a nation of can do, to one of afraid to try in just a few short decades. What's this new America? Is this attitude national maturity, or national senility?

So you may call me a jingo, or mean, or insensitive, but I look at where we're going, and I'm not happy, because I'll be damned if I want America to go quietly into that good night, like every great empire before us. A lot of Americans won't like this, but I think it's about time we remember who we are, and what we are, and act like it; I think it's about time, for us to walk tall and proud again, and carry a big stick again, and be willing to use it. I think it's time to stop apologizing for our country to every two-bit nation, and show an honest and unabashed pride in ourselves and our country again! I'm tired of the feminization of America. I'm tired of the whining of what Spiro Agnew called "an impudent corps of effete snobs who characterize themselves as intellectuals" (I didn't like the SOB, but he nailed that description perfectly) Yeah, I know what being like that costs....and I also know what sitting on our collective arse, while the world takes potshots at us with impunity costs too.


----------



## Wicked Jester

JBeukema said:


> Explain building 7


Quite simple, MORON.

Two megaton buildings right next to it had fully loaded, fully fueled planes rammed into 'em....They collapsed, right next to it.

Not hard to figure out at all, MORON!

You're a fuckin' idiot to the core.


----------



## SFC Ollie

Wicked Jester said:


> JBeukema said:
> 
> 
> 
> Explain building 7
> 
> 
> 
> Quite simple, MORON.
> 
> Two megaton buildings right next too it had fully loaded planes rammed into 'em....They collapsed, right next to it.
> 
> Not hard to figure out at all, MORON!
Click to expand...


Yep, I told the conspiracy nuts what happened. I even made it easy to understand.

A 110 story building fell on it!

Simple, end of story.


----------



## JBeukema

Wicked Jester said:


> JBeukema said:
> 
> 
> 
> Explain building 7
> 
> 
> 
> Quite simple, MORON.
> 
> Two megaton buildings right next too it had fully loaded planes rammed into 'em....They collapsed, right next to it.
> 
> Not hard to figure out at all, MORON!
Click to expand...

1)The surrounding buildings, which were closer to the towers, took much more damage and did not collapse

This is Building 7









WTC7.net the hidden story of Building 7: Claims of Severe Damage to Building 7

Let me guess, it was the fire?












Here's a picture of a real fire and what really happens when fire weakens a building's structure











Now... which burned longer and hotter?

Guess what _doesn't_ happen.... a perfect implosion into its own footprint at near-freefall speed.


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## zzzz

Our men and women who fought and died for America died not just for conservatives and republicans but for democrats, liberals, and those independents. Though some citizens do not like the military and speak out against them and some even burn the flag these soldiers died to protect that right, the right to say whatever they want,to voice whatever their opinion is. This is one thing that makes the USA special, the right to voice that opinion without worrying about being locked up or executed. So whether some people are against Memorial day or for it these men and women died so that you AMERICA can have that freedom.


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## Sunni Man

The United States has not fought a Constitutionally approved war since WWII

 Korea, Vietnam, Gulf War, etc.

 Were imperialistic wars fought to maintain colonialism in Asia and the middle east.

 And had nothing to do with protecting our freedom and liberty in America.

 They were just wars to prop up dictators and protect our access to other countries natural resources.

 I am sure that our soldiers are doing the best they can under the circumstances and serving their country.

 But saying that they are protecting our freedoms is the height of hubris and hypocrisy.


----------



## SFC Ollie

Sunni Man said:


> The United States has not fought a Constitutionally approved war since WWII
> 
> Korea, Vietnam, Gulf War, etc.
> 
> Were imperialistic wars fought to maintain colonialism in Asia and the middle east.
> 
> And had nothing to do with protecting our freedom and liberty in America.
> 
> They were just wars to prop up dictators and protect our access to other countries natural resources.
> 
> I am sure that our soldiers are doing the best they can under the circumstances and serving their country.
> 
> But saying that they are protecting our freedoms is the height of hubris and hypocrisy.



I served honorably for 22 years, every single day of that time I was protecting your rights. Every push-up, every morning run, every exercise. It was all part of being ready for when we were needed. And yes, even the conflicts that the haters love to hate had their part in keeping America free. Deny it all you like, we know what we did.


----------



## Sunni Man

SFC Ollie

 I agree that we need a strong military.

 And believe in national defense to protect our nation.

 Which is exactly what our Constitution calls for.

 But no conflict or war that we have been involved in since 1945 has done anything to protect our country our freedoms or our liberty.

 As I have posted on the board before I am a Vietnam Vet

 I have had several times where I had to fill out paperwork and check the box that said vet or provide my DD214

 And the person who read my paperwork thanked me for my service.

 Usually I just lightly nod my head and quickly change the subject.

 Because I know what we did was basically immoral and had nothing to do with defending America or our freedoms.


----------



## Samson

I didn't know soldiers were considered heroes unless they died in battle?

"How" or "Why" a man who was 18, 19, 20 years old is dead seems immaterial.


----------



## Sunni Man

Samson said:


> I didn't know soldiers were considered heroes unless they died in battle?
> 
> "How" or "Why" a man who was 18, 19, 20 years old is dead seems immaterial.



 I believe after a few years people realized how despicable the returning Vietnam vets were treated and want to make amends.

 Now the pendulum has swung the other way.

 And every soldier is viewed as a hero.


----------



## Samson

Sunni Man said:


> Samson said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I didn't know soldiers were considered heroes unless they died in battle?
> 
> "How" or "Why" a man who was 18, 19, 20 years old is dead seems immaterial.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I believe after a few years people realized how despicable the returning Vietnam vets were treated and want to make amends.
> 
> Now the pendulum has swung the other way.
> 
> And every soldier is viewed as a hero.
Click to expand...


Why do you say that? Was there a poll?

I mean, what is your evidence (yeah, sorry if you already posted it, but I'm to fucking lazy to comb through the whole thread to find it).


----------



## Smash_Hits

Sunni Man said:


> Samson said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I didn't know soldiers were considered heroes unless they died in battle?
> 
> "How" or "Why" a man who was 18, 19, 20 years old is dead seems immaterial.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I believe after a few years people realized how despicable the returning Vietnam vets were treated and want to make amends.
> 
> Now the pendulum has swung the other way.
> 
> And every soldier is viewed as a hero.
Click to expand...


I don't agree with you on many things, but this is essentially what I was trying to say with this topic.


----------



## JamesInFlorida

SFC Ollie said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> 
> The United States has not fought a Constitutionally approved war since WWII
> 
> Korea, Vietnam, Gulf War, etc.
> 
> Were imperialistic wars fought to maintain colonialism in Asia and the middle east.
> 
> And had nothing to do with protecting our freedom and liberty in America.
> 
> They were just wars to prop up dictators and protect our access to other countries natural resources.
> 
> I am sure that our soldiers are doing the best they can under the circumstances and serving their country.
> 
> But saying that they are protecting our freedoms is the height of hubris and hypocrisy.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I served honorably for 22 years, every single day of that time I was protecting your rights. Every push-up, every morning run, every exercise. It was all part of being ready for when we were needed. And yes, even the conflicts that the haters love to hate had their part in keeping America free. Deny it all you like, we know what we did.
Click to expand...


While I have no doubt of your intentions, and others in the military.  However, the soldiers/military aren't the ones who decide whether we go to war or not-it's politicians. Soldiers don't make the cause/reason why wars are waged-they do their job, and do what they're told (and in the US military-they do a damn good one)-but ultimately it ends with the politicians who wage, and end wars.

In short:

-I think those in the military are absolutely there to protect our freedoms, and our country. 

-But I think it's fair to say that's not always the case when it comes to politicians making the decision to go to war (or to stay in a war).


----------



## Samson

Smash_Hits said:


> I really, really dislike Memorial Day. Not because I hate the military (not true), nor because I don't think soldiers can't be heroes (also not true), but because I hate the spewing of jingoistic "all soldiers are heroes and they protect our freedom," by all parts of the political spectrum. Now, I want to make it clear that I do not believe soldiers can't be heroes; for example, I consider JFK to be one of the greatest men this country has seen, partly because of his actions in the military. What I am asking, is why all soldiers are automatically heroes? They certainly don't all earn it (US soldiers 'killed Afghan civilians for sport and collected fingers as trophies' | World news | The Guardian). And don't say it is because they are protecting our freedom, because frankly, they aren't right now. There were wars where they were, but our current conflicts are not intended to protect us.





Smash_Hits said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Samson said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I didn't know soldiers were considered heroes unless they died in battle?
> 
> "How" or "Why" a man who was 18, 19, 20 years old is dead seems immaterial.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I believe after a few years people realized how despicable the returning Vietnam vets were treated and want to make amends.
> 
> Now the pendulum has swung the other way.
> 
> And every soldier is viewed as a hero.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I don't agree with you on many things, but this is essentially what I was trying to say with this topic.
Click to expand...


Yet there is absolutely no evidence in the OP, or in any other post in the thread, to support the conclusion that EVERY SOLDIER IS VIEWED AS A HERO.

In my opinion, this conclusion is simply ignorant bullshit....unless by "hero" you mean "one with whom we are confident."

The Military is constantly rated highest among any other American institution in public confidence:

in the Gallup 2010 poll:

The military continues its long-standing run as the highest-rated U.S. institution.

Even though it fell from 82% to 76%.


----------



## Trajan

Sunni Man said:


> The United States has not fought a Constitutionally approved war since WWII
> 
> Korea, Vietnam, Gulf War, etc.
> 
> Were imperialistic wars fought to maintain colonialism in Asia and the middle east.
> 
> And had nothing to do with protecting our freedom and liberty in America.
> 
> They were just wars to prop up dictators and protect our access to other countries natural resources.
> 
> I am sure that our soldiers are doing the best they can under the circumstances and serving their country.
> 
> But saying that they are protecting our freedoms is the height of hubris and hypocrisy.



first, you apparently don't have an understanding as to what colonialism or imperialism is. 

second- I don't even know where to start , lets just say that the reasons that held for our entry  in to ww1 and ww2 was due to  our new but already germinated  ' global police' stance ala , yes we got attacked but simply to say thats what brought us into it, is an ignorance of history, what if they had not attacked pearl harbor but instead just went ahead and invaded and carried out the rest of their plans?

 Keeping and securing access to resources is a time tested reasoning behind most great conflicts.  

Korea and Vietnam were part of the cold war and just as important to fight a shrinking global presence and access to same. 

I must assume you have not read enough history to understand this as it doesn't appear that way.


----------



## Trajan

MikeK said:


> Trajan said:
> 
> 
> 
> [
> me thinks some reading of the treatys, agreements  and workings of the league of nations etc. between ww1 and 1939 would help you out.
> 
> and-
> 
> "War Is a Racket"
> 
> War Is a Racket - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> plenty of people felt that the banana wars, the Philippines etc etc was just more of the same, just becasue Eisenhower named it so, doesn't mean it didn't ostensibly exist before hand. Its just  a matter of relative size of the resources committed as to who they were fighting.
> 
> 
> 
> Of course it's a matter of relative size.  And there is no question that someone profits from every war ever fought.  So you might as well go all the way back to the American Revolution to make that point.  But are you seriously comparing the present situation to that of the Banana Wars and the Philippines Campaign?
> 
> There is no question that there was profiteering back then, and there is no doubt that political science students along with those who read and comprehended a book written by a former Commandant of The Marine Corps understood that somebody was making a buck.  But are you comparing the Banana Wars to Vietnam and the Philippines Campaign to Iraq and Afghanistan?
> 
> When Butler wrote his book the problem was beginning to manifest.  By the time Eisenhower called attention to it the situation was serious.  Today, owing to the phenomenal growth of our population and economy and relative dimension of our military engagements, the problem is critical and represents a menace to our national stability.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Q- did you sppt. our actions in Afghanistan when we went in?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> A better question would be whether I believed Bush's assertion that the military operation he was mounting would be a brief venture into Afghanistan for the purpose of bringing those responsible for the 9/11 attack to justice.  The answer is I wouldn't believe George W. Bush if he said, hello.  I saw it as an incipient opportunity to direct billions of dollars to his "base" of corporate opportunists and as of today it is still going on.
> 
> A better answer would be I would have supported it if I had cause to believe it but I didn't.
Click to expand...




> But are you seriously comparing the present situation to that of the Banana Wars and the Philippines Campaign?



not at all, those were far worse and were very much closer to what you are bitching about. you have a huge lack off perspective, as you are standing here now so it all seems that much more oh, innocent back then due to the decades that have passed,  and everything is harsher now. 


we actually had a better reason to go into afghan. and iraq then we did SA or the Philippines. 

you and sunni man suffer the same myopic twitch.


----------



## Samson

Trajan said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> 
> The United States has not fought a Constitutionally approved war since WWII
> 
> ....
> But saying that they are protecting our freedoms is the height of hubris and hypocrisy.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> first, you apparently don't have an understanding as to what colonialism or imperialism is.
> 
> .....
Click to expand...


Neither of you appear to understand that Americans have more confidence in the military than any other institution in the country: They don't give a fuck what "imperialism" is, or is not.


----------



## old navy

I can't believe that I read most of this without shooting my laptop. Well, it's a government laptop so good thing I didn't. How amazing that these freedom haters are not writing in Russian, Chinese, or some other funny sounding language. Speaking of, JBeukema makes a point to use words that he puts a U in where we Americans do not. Honour, dishonour, etc. He or she is a foreigner.


----------



## Samson

old navy said:


> I can't believe that I read most of this without shooting my laptop. Well, it's a government laptop so good thing I didn't. How amazing that these freedom haters are not writing in Russian, Chinese, or some other funny sounding language. Speaking of, JBeukema makes a point to use words that he puts a U in where we Americans do not. Honour, dishonour, etc. He or she is a foreigner.



Old Navy...

Shouldn't you be out selling shirts made in China, or Kazakistan?


----------



## Sunni Man

Trajan said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> 
> The United States has not fought a Constitutionally approved war since WWII
> 
> Korea, Vietnam, Gulf War, etc.
> 
> Were imperialistic wars fought to maintain colonialism in Asia and the middle east.
> 
> And had nothing to do with protecting our freedom and liberty in America.
> 
> They were just wars to prop up dictators and protect our access to other countries natural resources.
> 
> I am sure that our soldiers are doing the best they can under the circumstances and serving their country.
> 
> But saying that they are protecting our freedoms is the height of hubris and hypocrisy.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> first, you apparently don't have an understanding as to what colonialism or imperialism is.
> 
> second- I don't even know where to start , lets just say that the reasons that held for our entry  in to ww1 and ww2 was due to  our new but already germinated  ' global police' stance ala , yes we got attacked but simply to say thats what brought us into it, is an ignorance of history, what if they had not attacked pearl harbor but instead just went ahead and invaded and carried out the rest of their plans?
> 
> Keeping and securing access to resources is a time tested reasoning behind most great conflicts.
> 
> Korea and Vietnam were part of the cold war and just as important to fight a shrinking global presence and access to same.
> 
> I must assume you have not read enough history to understand this as it doesn't appear that way.
Click to expand...


 I have read a ton of military history.

 My father fought in Europe during World War II and also in the Korean War.

 So my interest in military history started when I was a young teenager.

 And continues until today.


----------



## Samson

Sunni Man said:


> Trajan said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> 
> The United States has not fought a Constitutionally approved war since WWII
> 
> Korea, Vietnam, Gulf War, etc.
> 
> Were imperialistic wars fought to maintain colonialism in Asia and the middle east.
> 
> And had nothing to do with protecting our freedom and liberty in America.
> 
> They were just wars to prop up dictators and protect our access to other countries natural resources.
> 
> I am sure that our soldiers are doing the best they can under the circumstances and serving their country.
> 
> But saying that they are protecting our freedoms is the height of hubris and hypocrisy.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> first, you apparently don't have an understanding as to what colonialism or imperialism is.
> 
> second- I don't even know where to start , lets just say that the reasons that held for our entry  in to ww1 and ww2 was due to  our new but already germinated  ' global police' stance ala , yes we got attacked but simply to say thats what brought us into it, is an ignorance of history, what if they had not attacked pearl harbor but instead just went ahead and invaded and carried out the rest of their plans?
> 
> Keeping and securing access to resources is a time tested reasoning behind most great conflicts.
> 
> Korea and Vietnam were part of the cold war and just as important to fight a shrinking global presence and access to same.
> 
> I must assume you have not read enough history to understand this as it doesn't appear that way.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I have read a ton of military history.
> 
> My father fought in Europe during World War II and also in the Korean War.
> 
> So my interest in military history started when I was a young teenager.
> 
> And continues until today.
Click to expand...


Immaterial: The US Military remains well ahead in American's confidence compared to any other institution.


----------



## HUGGY

Samson said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Trajan said:
> 
> 
> 
> first, you apparently don't have an understanding as to what colonialism or imperialism is.
> 
> second- I don't even know where to start , lets just say that the reasons that held for our entry  in to ww1 and ww2 was due to  our new but already germinated  ' global police' stance ala , yes we got attacked but simply to say thats what brought us into it, is an ignorance of history, what if they had not attacked pearl harbor but instead just went ahead and invaded and carried out the rest of their plans?
> 
> Keeping and securing access to resources is a time tested reasoning behind most great conflicts.
> 
> Korea and Vietnam were part of the cold war and just as important to fight a shrinking global presence and access to same.
> 
> I must assume you have not read enough history to understand this as it doesn't appear that way.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I have read a ton of military history.
> 
> My father fought in Europe during World War II and also in the Korean War.
> 
> So my interest in military history started when I was a young teenager.
> 
> And continues until today.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Immaterial: The US Military remains well ahead in American's confidence compared to any other institution.
Click to expand...


When a serviceman in uniform shows up at a Seattle seafood restaurant and asks for whole crab...he gets whole crab...

Just saying...

That is all.


----------



## old navy

Samson said:


> old navy said:
> 
> 
> 
> I can't believe that I read most of this without shooting my laptop. Well, it's a government laptop so good thing I didn't. How amazing that these freedom haters are not writing in Russian, Chinese, or some other funny sounding language. Speaking of, JBeukema makes a point to use words that he puts a U in where we Americans do not. Honour, dishonour, etc. He or she is a foreigner.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Old Navy...
> 
> Shouldn't you be out selling shirts made in China, or Kazakistan?
Click to expand...


It took me a few seconds to remember that capital O and N Old Navy is a clothing establishment. My screen name though represents old school service to Sailors, Marines, and their dependents. Twenty six proud years as a Navy Corpsman. And not pronounced corpes man as the POTUS does.


----------



## Samson

HUGGY said:


> Samson said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> 
> I have read a ton of military history.
> 
> My father fought in Europe during World War II and also in the Korean War.
> 
> So my interest in military history started when I was a young teenager.
> 
> And continues until today.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Immaterial: The US Military remains well ahead in American's confidence compared to any other institution.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> When a serviceman in uniform shows up at a Seattle seafood restaurant and asks for whole crab...he gets whole crab...
> 
> Just saying...
> 
> That is all.
Click to expand...


I bet there's many servicemen that have gotten crabs in Seattle.


----------



## old navy

Samson said:


> HUGGY said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Samson said:
> 
> 
> 
> Immaterial: The US Military remains well ahead in American's confidence compared to any other institution.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> When a serviceman in uniform shows up at a Seattle seafood restaurant and asks for whole crab...he gets whole crab...
> 
> Just saying...
> 
> That is all.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I bet there's many servicemen that have gotten crabs in Seattle.
Click to expand...


Easily treated.

When you itch like hell, Kwell is swell.


----------



## SFC Ollie

old navy said:


> Samson said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> HUGGY said:
> 
> 
> 
> When a serviceman in uniform shows up at a Seattle seafood restaurant and asks for whole crab...he gets whole crab...
> 
> Just saying...
> 
> That is all.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I bet there's many servicemen that have gotten crabs in Seattle.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Easily treated.
> 
> When you itch like hell, Kwell is swell.
Click to expand...


And my bet is they mostly got them "out" of uniform.....so to speak....


----------



## old navy

SFC Ollie said:


> old navy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Samson said:
> 
> 
> 
> I bet there's many servicemen that have gotten crabs in Seattle.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Easily treated.
> 
> When you itch like hell, Kwell is swell.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> And my bet is they mostly got them "out" of uniform.....so to speak....
Click to expand...


I hope so.


----------

