# No abortion for rape victims



## Luddly Neddite

Rick Berg, North Dakota GOP Senate Candidate: No Abortion Access For Rape Victims

He must plan on raising the unwanted fetus. I mean, surely he would not demand the power to control women's lives unless he also planned to take responsibility for his power over them.

He probably also believes in slavery - ultimate control over people's lives.


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## Dont Taz Me Bro

luddly.neddite said:


> He probably also believes in slavery - ultimate control over people's lives.



Then it sounds like he is right up your alley.  You think politicians should control our access to health care.


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## Luddly Neddite

So, you think the pubpots are adopting unwanted babies? Yeah right. They just want to keep women down and out.
===

You haven't been reading my posts. 

I believe just the opposite. And I also believe I should not be forced to pay for your health care or the health care of illegals.

I just with the rw's weren't such lazy moochers and would pay for their own.


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## LilOlLady

What the fuck is religous freedom? My freedom of religions allows me to have an abortion. Don't I have that right?


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## LilOlLady

luddly.neddite said:


> So, you think the pubpots are adopting unwanted babies? Yeah right. They just want to keep women down and out.
> ===
> 
> You haven't been reading my posts.
> 
> I believe just the opposite. And I also believe I* should not be forced to pay for your health care *or the *health care of illegals*.
> 
> I just with the rw's weren't such lazy moochers and would pay for their own.



I taxes pay for my abortions and my healthcare. I paid into to system and have a right to collect. Illegal aliens work an pay taxes that pay for their healthcare. Even in ER. Ilegal aliens should not have to pay for your social security and medicare either.
Most of the people who are needing a helping hand has already paid into the system and it's pay up time when they need it. What you are paying in now will be there when you lose your job or get too sick to work. We take care of our own as the Christian God commands.


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## Quantum Windbag

LilOlLady said:


> What the fuck is religous freedom? My freedom of religions allows me to have an abortion. Don't I have that right?



Does your freedom of religion let you commit murder?


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## Noomi

Abortion is not murder, though.


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## Noomi

luddly.neddite said:


> Rick Berg, North Dakota GOP Senate Candidate: No Abortion Access For Rape Victims
> 
> He must plan on raising the unwanted fetus. I mean, surely he would not demand the power to control women's lives unless he also planned to take responsibility for his power over them.
> 
> He probably also believes in slavery - ultimate control over people's lives.



Republicans have more compassion for a clump of cells than for a traumatised woman who has been through the worst thing any woman could ever experience.


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## Quantum Windbag

Noomi said:


> Abortion is not murder, though.



When does life begin, scientifically?


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## Quantum Windbag

Noomi said:


> luddly.neddite said:
> 
> 
> 
> Rick Berg, North Dakota GOP Senate Candidate: No Abortion Access For Rape Victims
> 
> He must plan on raising the unwanted fetus. I mean, surely he would not demand the power to control women's lives unless he also planned to take responsibility for his power over them.
> 
> He probably also believes in slavery - ultimate control over people's lives.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Republicans have more compassion for a clump of cells than for a traumatised woman who has been through the worst thing any woman could ever experience.
Click to expand...


If you think rape is the worst thing any woman can ever experience you are an idiot.


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## Noomi

Quantum Windbag said:


> Noomi said:
> 
> 
> 
> Abortion is not murder, though.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> When does life begin, scientifically?
Click to expand...


Depends on your definition. I believe that life begins at conception, but that it is not protected life. I also believe that personhood begins at birth. I am pro choice simply because a fetus is not a protected life.

Besides, the law states quite clearly that abortion is not murder. If it was, millions of women would be in prison right now.


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## Noomi

Quantum Windbag said:


> Noomi said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> luddly.neddite said:
> 
> 
> 
> Rick Berg, North Dakota GOP Senate Candidate: No Abortion Access For Rape Victims
> 
> He must plan on raising the unwanted fetus. I mean, surely he would not demand the power to control women's lives unless he also planned to take responsibility for his power over them.
> 
> He probably also believes in slavery - ultimate control over people's lives.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Republicans have more compassion for a clump of cells than for a traumatised woman who has been through the worst thing any woman could ever experience.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> If you think rape is the worst thing any woman can ever experience you are an idiot.
Click to expand...


Rape is the worst thing a woman can experience and survive, yes.


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## Saigon

Quantum Windbag said:


> If you think rape is the worst thing any woman can ever experience you are an idiot.



It's good to see QW lecturing on topics he has expert knowledge of.


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## Quantum Windbag

Noomi said:


> Quantum Windbag said:
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> 
> 
> 
> Noomi said:
> 
> 
> 
> Abortion is not murder, though.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> When does life begin, scientifically?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Depends on your definition. I believe that life begins at conception, but that it is not protected life. I also believe that personhood begins at birth. I am pro choice simply because a fetus is not a protected life.
> 
> Besides, the law states quite clearly that abortion is not murder. If it was, millions of women would be in prison right now.
Click to expand...


I asked for the scientific definition, why would my definition be pertinent?


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## Saigon

I think most of the developed world is comfortable with abortion. It's not a political issue in most of the western world. 

If you don't want one, you don't have to have one. 

This is purely and simply a question of personal freedom, and ironically it is the so-called conservatives who are against freedom on this, as on so many other issues.


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## Quantum Windbag

Noomi said:


> Quantum Windbag said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Noomi said:
> 
> 
> 
> Republicans have more compassion for a clump of cells than for a traumatised woman who has been through the worst thing any woman could ever experience.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If you think rape is the worst thing any woman can ever experience you are an idiot.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Rape is the worst thing a woman can experience and survive, yes.
Click to expand...


If I gave you a choice between a quadruple amputation accompanied by being blind and deaf or rape you would choose the first? Why do I think you are lying to me?


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## Saigon

Quantum Windbag said:


> I asked for the scientific definition, why would my definition be pertinent?



It isn't pertinent. 

It's your opinion, and nothing more.


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## Quantum Windbag

Saigon said:


> Quantum Windbag said:
> 
> 
> 
> If you think rape is the worst thing any woman can ever experience you are an idiot.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's good to see QW lecturing on topics he has expert knowledge of.
Click to expand...


It doesn't take much expertise to tell that anyone who thinks rape is the worst possible thing in the entire universe is a fool.


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## Saigon

Quantum Windbag said:


> Noomi said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Quantum Windbag said:
> 
> 
> 
> If you think rape is the worst thing any woman can ever experience you are an idiot.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Rape is the worst thing a woman can experience and survive, yes.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> If I gave you a choice between a quadruple amputation accompanied by being blind and deaf or rape you would choose the first? Why do I think you are lying to me?
Click to expand...


And that is the choice, is it?

Women who have been raped should be thankful that the man did not cripple them as well?

You really are insane, aren't you?


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## Saigon

Quantum Windbag said:


> Saigon said:
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> 
> 
> 
> Quantum Windbag said:
> 
> 
> 
> If you think rape is the worst thing any woman can ever experience you are an idiot.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's good to see QW lecturing on topics he has expert knowledge of.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> It doesn't take much expertise to tell that anyone who thinks rape is the worst possible thing in the entire universe is a fool.
Click to expand...


It does if you have never been raped.


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## Quantum Windbag

Saigon said:


> I think most of the developed world is comfortable with abortion. It's not a political issue in most of the western world.
> 
> If you don't want one, you don't have to have one.
> 
> This is purely and simply a question of personal freedom, and ironically it is the so-called conservatives who are against freedom on this, as on so many other issues.



I think most of the developed world would have no problem if you were murdered, does that make it right?


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## Noomi

Quantum Windbag said:


> Noomi said:
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> 
> 
> 
> Quantum Windbag said:
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> 
> 
> If you think rape is the worst thing any woman can ever experience you are an idiot.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Rape is the worst thing a woman can experience and survive, yes.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> If I gave you a choice between a quadruple amputation accompanied by being blind and deaf or rape you would choose the first? Why do I think you are lying to me?
Click to expand...


You have never been raped, so don't be so bloody offensive and heartless and treat rape as something trivial, because it bloody well isn't.


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## Quantum Windbag

Saigon said:


> Quantum Windbag said:
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> 
> 
> I asked for the scientific definition, why would my definition be pertinent?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It isn't pertinent.
> 
> It's your opinion, and nothing more.
Click to expand...


The scientific definition of life is my opinion? Since when?

I would suggest you stop trying to argue with me, you aren't smart ass enough.


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## Quantum Windbag

Saigon said:


> Quantum Windbag said:
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> 
> 
> 
> 
> Noomi said:
> 
> 
> 
> Rape is the worst thing a woman can experience and survive, yes.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If I gave you a choice between a quadruple amputation accompanied by being blind and deaf or rape you would choose the first? Why do I think you are lying to me?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> And that is the choice, is it?
> 
> Women who have been raped should be thankful that the man did not cripple them as well?
> 
> You really are insane, aren't you?
Click to expand...


Is that what I said?


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## Quantum Windbag

Saigon said:


> Quantum Windbag said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Saigon said:
> 
> 
> 
> It's good to see QW lecturing on topics he has expert knowledge of.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It doesn't take much expertise to tell that anyone who thinks rape is the worst possible thing in the entire universe is a fool.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> It does if you have never been raped.
Click to expand...


What evidence do you have that I have not been raped?


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## Againsheila

luddly.neddite said:


> Rick Berg, North Dakota GOP Senate Candidate: No Abortion Access For Rape Victims
> 
> He must plan on raising the unwanted fetus. I mean, surely he would not demand the power to control women's lives unless he also planned to take responsibility for his power over them.
> 
> He probably also believes in slavery - ultimate control over people's lives.



Some people believe life begins at conception.  I believe that myself.  That means that if you abort a baby, you are killing a child.  Now I don't believe a woman who has been raped should have to carry the child to term due to the damage having a baby can do to a woman and having an unwanted baby can do to a woman's psyche.  That said, the man is entitled to his belief, just as I am and just as you are.  You don't like his politics, don't vote for him, but quit this garbage about him raising a child simply because he doesn't believe in murdering them.

BTW, I knew a woman that wanted an abortion and I offered to adopt the baby.  Of course she went through with the abortion which she later regretted.  IMO, before you can get an abortion, you should have to have counseling on both sides of the issue.   Kind of like you should listen to the debates of all the candidates before making up your mind.


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## Saigon

Quantum Windbag said:


> Saigon said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think most of the developed world is comfortable with abortion. It's not a political issue in most of the western world.
> 
> If you don't want one, you don't have to have one.
> 
> This is purely and simply a question of personal freedom, and ironically it is the so-called conservatives who are against freedom on this, as on so many other issues.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think most of the developed world would have no problem if you were murdered, does that make it right?
Click to expand...


Murder is illegal in every developed country. 

Abortion is legal in every developed country with the exception of Ireland, I eblieve.


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## Saigon

Quantum Windbag said:


> Saigon said:
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> 
> 
> 
> Quantum Windbag said:
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> 
> 
> It doesn't take much expertise to tell that anyone who thinks rape is the worst possible thing in the entire universe is a fool.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It does if you have never been raped.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> What evidence do you have that I have not been raped?
Click to expand...


I have no idea if you are a woman or if you have been raped. 

If you are a woman and have been raped then of course you are in a far better position to discuss this topic than any man is. 

If you are not a woman and/or have not been raped then I have no idea why you would think you know what it is like.


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## Quantum Windbag

Noomi said:


> Quantum Windbag said:
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> 
> 
> 
> Noomi said:
> 
> 
> 
> Rape is the worst thing a woman can experience and survive, yes.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If I gave you a choice between a quadruple amputation accompanied by being blind and deaf or rape you would choose the first? Why do I think you are lying to me?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You have never been raped, so don't be so bloody offensive and heartless and treat rape as something trivial, because it bloody well isn't.
Click to expand...


There you go jumping to conclusions again. 

By the way, please point out how pointing out that there are a lot of things worse than rape is somehow proof that I am trivializing rape. If rape were actually the worst thing that any woman could possibly experience every mother alive would rather kill her own children than be raped. Personally, I think that no sane woman would make that choice. That means that you are the one trivializing every woman who has ever chosen rape over a beating or being cut. 

That makes you the asshole in this conversation, not me.


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## Saigon

Againsheila said:


> IMO, before you can get an abortion, you should have to have counseling on both sides of the issue.   Kind of like you should listen to the debates of all the candidates before making up your mind.



I believe that is the case in almost every developed country - particulaly with younger people. 

I do agree that counselling should be compulsory.


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## Quantum Windbag

Saigon said:


> Quantum Windbag said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Saigon said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think most of the developed world is comfortable with abortion. It's not a political issue in most of the western world.
> 
> If you don't want one, you don't have to have one.
> 
> This is purely and simply a question of personal freedom, and ironically it is the so-called conservatives who are against freedom on this, as on so many other issues.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think most of the developed world would have no problem if you were murdered, does that make it right?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Murder is illegal in every developed country.
> 
> Abortion is legal in every developed country with the exception of Ireland, I eblieve.
Click to expand...


Doesn't mean the people in those countries give a rat's ass about you, does it?


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## koshergrl

Quantum Windbag said:


> Noomi said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Quantum Windbag said:
> 
> 
> 
> If you think rape is the worst thing any woman can ever experience you are an idiot.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Rape is the worst thing a woman can experience and survive, yes.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> If I gave you a choice between a quadruple amputation accompanied by being blind and deaf or rape you would choose the first? Why do I think you are lying to me?
Click to expand...


Or have your children killed.


Noomi doesn't give a shit about children, before or after birth. She thinks the woman who glued her toddler's hands to the wall and then proceeded to kick and beat her should just spend a short time in jail.


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## Saigon

Quantum Windbag said:


> By the way, please point out how pointing out that there are a lot of things worse than rape is somehow proof that I am trivializing rape. If rape were actually the worst thing that any woman could possibly experience every mother alive would rather kill her own children than be raped. Personally, I think that no sane woman would make that choice. That means that you are the one trivializing every woman who has ever chosen rape over a beating or being cut.
> 
> That makes you the asshole in this conversation, not me.



Um.....what?

So saying that rape victims should be thankful they are not crippled is NOT triviliasing rape, but claiming rape is an appalling, terrible crime IS trivilialising rape?

Are you trolling?


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## GWV5903

Noomi said:


> Abortion is not murder, though.



The choice to end the life of an unborn is most definitely murder...

None of us would be here if conception had not taken place, when that heart starts to beat, it is a living being... 

I hope you figure this out before it is too late...


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## Quantum Windbag

Saigon said:


> Quantum Windbag said:
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> 
> 
> 
> 
> Saigon said:
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> 
> 
> It does if you have never been raped.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What evidence do you have that I have not been raped?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I have no idea if you are a woman or if you have been raped.
> 
> If you are a woman and have been raped then of course you are in a far better position to discuss this topic than any man is.
> 
> If you are not a woman and/or have not been raped then I have no idea why you would think you know what it is like.
Click to expand...


Where did I say I know what it is like?

That said, why do you think only women can know what rape is like? Do men who are raped somehow have a less traumatic experience than women? Are you one of those idiots that think men can't be raped?


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## Saigon

Quantum Windbag said:


> Saigon said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Quantum Windbag said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think most of the developed world would have no problem if you were murdered, does that make it right?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Murder is illegal in every developed country.
> 
> Abortion is legal in every developed country with the exception of Ireland, I eblieve.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Doesn't mean the people in those countries give a rat's ass about you, does it?
Click to expand...


You seem not to understand. 

Perhaps try reading the comment again. 

Murder is illegal. 

Abortion is legal. 

Thus, my life IS protected when I travel to other countries.


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## Quantum Windbag

koshergrl said:


> Quantum Windbag said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Noomi said:
> 
> 
> 
> Rape is the worst thing a woman can experience and survive, yes.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If I gave you a choice between a quadruple amputation accompanied by being blind and deaf or rape you would choose the first? Why do I think you are lying to me?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Or have your children killed.
> 
> 
> Noomi doesn't give a shit about children, before or after birth. She thinks the woman who glued her toddler's hands to the wall and then proceeded to kick and beat her should just spend a short time in jail.
Click to expand...


Which proves my point, Noomi is an asshole.


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## Saigon

Quantum Windbag said:


> Where did I say I know what it is like?
> 
> That said, why do you think only women can know what rape is like? Do men who are raped somehow have a less traumatic experience than women? Are you one of those idiots that think men can't be raped?



I don't know if you have been raped or not. 

Of course men can be raped, and I imagine it is equally as traumatic an experience, though I don't have any personal experience of this myself.


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## Quantum Windbag

saigon said:


> quantum windbag said:
> 
> 
> 
> by the way, please point out how pointing out that there are a lot of things worse than rape is somehow proof that i am trivializing rape. If rape were actually the worst thing that any woman could possibly experience every mother alive would rather kill her own children than be raped. Personally, i think that no sane woman would make that choice. That means that you are the one trivializing every woman who has ever chosen rape over a beating or being cut.
> 
> That makes you the asshole in this conversation, not me.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> um.....what?
> 
> So saying that rape victims should be thankful they are not crippled is not triviliasing rape, but claiming rape is an appalling, terrible crime is trivilialising rape?
> 
> Are you trolling?
Click to expand...


How the fuck am I trivializing rape?


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## Quantum Windbag

Saigon said:


> Quantum Windbag said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Saigon said:
> 
> 
> 
> Murder is illegal in every developed country.
> 
> Abortion is legal in every developed country with the exception of Ireland, I eblieve.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Doesn't mean the people in those countries give a rat's ass about you, does it?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You seem not to understand.
> 
> Perhaps try reading the comment again.
> 
> Murder is illegal.
> 
> Abortion is legal.
> 
> Thus, my life IS protected when I travel to other countries.
Click to expand...


Your life is only protected if you think the government attempting to find someone who may have killed you after you are dead is protection.


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## Saigon

Quantum Windbag said:


> How the fuck am I trivializing rape?



You are triviliasing rape by suggesting that women who are raped should be thankful that they are not crippled. 

In actual fact, I suspect many women who have been raped feel that they are crippled.


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## Noomi

Quantum Windbag said:


> koshergrl said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Quantum Windbag said:
> 
> 
> 
> If I gave you a choice between a quadruple amputation accompanied by being blind and deaf or rape you would choose the first? Why do I think you are lying to me?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Or have your children killed.
> 
> 
> Noomi doesn't give a shit about children, before or after birth. She thinks the woman who glued her toddler's hands to the wall and then proceeded to kick and beat her should just spend a short time in jail.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Which proves my point, Noomi is an asshole.
Click to expand...


Love it how right wingers revert to name calling when someone disagrees with them.


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## Saigon

Quantum Windbag said:


> Your life is only protected if you think the government attempting to find someone who may have killed you after you are dead is protection.



Thi is getting a bit desperate, isn't it?

For the third time - murder is illegal in every developed country. Abortion is legal in every developed country (except Ireland). 

I suggest you accept that as being fact.


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## Quantum Windbag

Saigon said:


> Quantum Windbag said:
> 
> 
> 
> How the fuck am I trivializing rape?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You are triviliasing rape by suggesting that women who are raped should be thankful that they are not crippled.
> 
> In actual fact, I suspect many women who have been raped feel that they are crippled.
Click to expand...


I suggested no such thing, I called Noomi a liar for suggesting she would rather be a quadruple amputee who is blind and deaf than be raped. For some obscure and unintelligible reason you want to prove how smart you are by challenging me on that point even though Noomi ran away like the lying asshole she is.


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## Noomi

Quantum Windbag said:


> saigon said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> quantum windbag said:
> 
> 
> 
> by the way, please point out how pointing out that there are a lot of things worse than rape is somehow proof that i am trivializing rape. If rape were actually the worst thing that any woman could possibly experience every mother alive would rather kill her own children than be raped. Personally, i think that no sane woman would make that choice. That means that you are the one trivializing every woman who has ever chosen rape over a beating or being cut.
> 
> That makes you the asshole in this conversation, not me.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> um.....what?
> 
> So saying that rape victims should be thankful they are not crippled is not triviliasing rape, but claiming rape is an appalling, terrible crime is trivilialising rape?
> 
> Are you trolling?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> How the fuck am I trivializing rape?
Click to expand...


You are assuming that rape is not the worst thing a woman can experience, when indeed, it is up there with the worst of the worst.


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## Noomi

Quantum Windbag said:


> Saigon said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Quantum Windbag said:
> 
> 
> 
> How the fuck am I trivializing rape?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You are triviliasing rape by suggesting that women who are raped should be thankful that they are not crippled.
> 
> In actual fact, I suspect many women who have been raped feel that they are crippled.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I suggested no such thing, I called Noomi a liar for suggesting she would rather be a quadruple amputee who is blind and deaf than be raped. For some obscure and unintelligible reason you want to prove how smart you are by challenging me on that point even though Noomi ran away like the lying asshole she is.
Click to expand...


You have given such idiotic examples, though.


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## Saigon

Quantum Windbag said:


> I suggested no such thing, I called Noomi a liar for suggesting she would rather be a quadruple amputee who is blind and deaf than be raped. For some obscure and unintelligible reason you want to prove how smart you are by challenging me on that point even though Noomi ran away like the lying asshole she is.



Sh didn't say that, and apparently she didn't "run away". 

Please post honestly - it is easier enough for posters to check back a page or two and confirm what was said. 

You posted that being crippled was worse - I still do not see why that is the option rape victims should face.


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## Quantum Windbag

Noomi said:


> Quantum Windbag said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> koshergrl said:
> 
> 
> 
> Or have your children killed.
> 
> 
> Noomi doesn't give a shit about children, before or after birth. She thinks the woman who glued her toddler's hands to the wall and then proceeded to kick and beat her should just spend a short time in jail.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Which proves my point, Noomi is an asshole.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Love it how right wingers revert to name calling when someone disagrees with them.
Click to expand...


Didn't you call me an asshole in this thread because you were upset by my factual statements? Didn't I respond to your name calling by pointing out how you were the one that is trivializing the decisions others make by laying down a false equivalency and judging people based on your false moral standards? Did you ever respond to me when I pointed out your duplicity? 

How does me pointing out that, by your definition, you are an asshole, make me wrong?

By the way, did you ever come up with an answer to my question?


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## Noomi

If I had to choose between simply being deaf, or being raped, I would prefer to be deaf. I am already partially deaf anyway, so it wouldn't matter to me.

That's a better choice, unlike yours of being limbless and sightless.


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## Saigon

Quantum Windbag said:


> Didn't I respond to your name calling by pointing out how you were the one that is trivializing the decisions others make by laying down a false equivalency and judging people based on your false moral standards??



Says the person who insists on equating rape with being crippled. 


btw. Isn't it nice how you consider other peoples morals to be "false"!


----------



## Quantum Windbag

Saigon said:


> Quantum Windbag said:
> 
> 
> 
> Your life is only protected if you think the government attempting to find someone who may have killed you after you are dead is protection.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thi is getting a bit desperate, isn't it?
> 
> For the third time - murder is illegal in every developed country. Abortion is legal in every developed country (except Ireland).
> 
> I suggest you accept that as being fact.
Click to expand...


How is that desperate? Would you like examples of police murdering people right here in the US to prove that murder being illegal doesn't protect people?

By the way, please point out where I ever disputed your claims. 

Just as a point of order, do you consider Mexico a developed country?


----------



## Quantum Windbag

Noomi said:


> Quantum Windbag said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> saigon said:
> 
> 
> 
> um.....what?
> 
> So saying that rape victims should be thankful they are not crippled is not triviliasing rape, but claiming rape is an appalling, terrible crime is trivilialising rape?
> 
> Are you trolling?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How the fuck am I trivializing rape?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You are assuming that rape is not the worst thing a woman can experience, when indeed, it is up there with the worst of the worst.
Click to expand...


You went from saying that rape is the worst thing any woman can experience to it is the worst thing she can experience and survive to your current position that is up there with the worst of the worst.

That means I am actually winning this argument, even if you do not want to admit it.

Yet, somehow, I am trivializing rape.

Congratulations on being a sore looser as well as being a lying asshole.


----------



## Quantum Windbag

Noomi said:


> Quantum Windbag said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Saigon said:
> 
> 
> 
> You are triviliasing rape by suggesting that women who are raped should be thankful that they are not crippled.
> 
> In actual fact, I suspect many women who have been raped feel that they are crippled.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I suggested no such thing, I called Noomi a liar for suggesting she would rather be a quadruple amputee who is blind and deaf than be raped. For some obscure and unintelligible reason you want to prove how smart you are by challenging me on that point even though Noomi ran away like the lying asshole she is.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You have given such idiotic examples, though.
Click to expand...


Choosing rape over getting beaten is idiotic?

Choosing rape over the death of a child is idiotic?


----------



## Quantum Windbag

Saigon said:


> Quantum Windbag said:
> 
> 
> 
> I suggested no such thing, I called Noomi a liar for suggesting she would rather be a quadruple amputee who is blind and deaf than be raped. For some obscure and unintelligible reason you want to prove how smart you are by challenging me on that point even though Noomi ran away like the lying asshole she is.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sh didn't say that, and apparently she didn't "run away".
> 
> Please post honestly - it is easier enough for posters to check back a page or two and confirm what was said.
> 
> You posted that being crippled was worse - I still do not see why that is the option rape victims should face.
Click to expand...


She changed her position, and is now saying that women who choose to be raped over having their children die are idiots.

Want to point out how I am being dishonest?


----------



## Quantum Windbag

Noomi said:


> If I had to choose between simply being deaf, or being raped, I would prefer to be deaf. I am already partially deaf anyway, so it wouldn't matter to me.
> 
> That's a better choice, unlike yours of being limbless and sightless.



What about being blind?


----------



## Saigon

Quantum Windbag said:


> That means I am actually winning this argument, even if you do not want to admit it.
> 
> Yet, somehow, I am trivializing rape.
> .



I can't imagine why you would think:

a) lecutring women on what it is like to be a raped woman

b) insisting that rape be compared with being crippled

even counts as an argument, let alone winning one.


----------



## Quantum Windbag

Saigon said:


> Quantum Windbag said:
> 
> 
> 
> Didn't I respond to your name calling by pointing out how you were the one that is trivializing the decisions others make by laying down a false equivalency and judging people based on your false moral standards??
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Says the person who insists on equating rape with being crippled.
> 
> 
> btw. Isn't it nice how you consider other peoples morals to be "false"!
Click to expand...


Feel free to point out where I said anything like that. Until then, let me point out that you are a lying scumbag piece of shit.


----------



## Saigon

Quantum Windbag said:


> Noomi said:
> 
> 
> 
> If I had to choose between simply being deaf, or being raped, I would prefer to be deaf. I am already partially deaf anyway, so it wouldn't matter to me.
> 
> That's a better choice, unlike yours of being limbless and sightless.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What about being blind?
Click to expand...


Again - WHY is that the choice?

Why can't we view rape simply as rape, without comparing it to blindness or being crippled?


----------



## Noomi

Quantum Windbag said:


> Noomi said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Quantum Windbag said:
> 
> 
> 
> I suggested no such thing, I called Noomi a liar for suggesting she would rather be a quadruple amputee who is blind and deaf than be raped. For some obscure and unintelligible reason you want to prove how smart you are by challenging me on that point even though Noomi ran away like the lying asshole she is.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You have given such idiotic examples, though.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Choosing rape over getting beaten is idiotic?
> 
> Choosing rape over the death of a child is idiotic?
Click to expand...


The death of a child cannot be compared to rape, no matter how much you think the two are similar.


----------



## Noomi

Quantum Windbag said:


> Noomi said:
> 
> 
> 
> If I had to choose between simply being deaf, or being raped, I would prefer to be deaf. I am already partially deaf anyway, so it wouldn't matter to me.
> 
> That's a better choice, unlike yours of being limbless and sightless.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What about being blind?
Click to expand...


Being blind is in no way related to being raped. What is similar to being raped?


----------



## Quantum Windbag

Saigon said:


> Quantum Windbag said:
> 
> 
> 
> That means I am actually winning this argument, even if you do not want to admit it.
> 
> Yet, somehow, I am trivializing rape.
> .
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I can't imagine why you would think:
> 
> a) lecutring women on what it is like to be a raped woman
> 
> b) insisting that rape be compared with being crippled
> 
> even counts as an argument, let alone winning one.
Click to expand...


I can't imagine why a lying scumbag piece of shit would think he is worth the time it takes to point out that he is a lying scumbag piece of shit.


----------



## Saigon

Quantum Windbag said:


> Saigon said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Quantum Windbag said:
> 
> 
> 
> Didn't I respond to your name calling by pointing out how you were the one that is trivializing the decisions others make by laying down a false equivalency and judging people based on your false moral standards??
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Says the person who insists on equating rape with being crippled.
> 
> 
> btw. Isn't it nice how you consider other peoples morals to be "false"!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Feel free to point out where I said anything like that. Until then, let me point out that you are a lying scumbag piece of shit.
Click to expand...


Here:



> If I gave you a choice between a quadruple amputation accompanied by being blind and deaf or rape you would choose the first?


----------



## Quantum Windbag

Noomi said:


> Quantum Windbag said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Noomi said:
> 
> 
> 
> You have given such idiotic examples, though.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Choosing rape over getting beaten is idiotic?
> 
> Choosing rape over the death of a child is idiotic?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The death of a child cannot be compared to rape, no matter how much you think the two are similar.
Click to expand...


Women are faced with choosing between rape and the death of their children every day. You claiming there is no comparison does not mean that people are not forced to make that comparison.


----------



## Quantum Windbag

Noomi said:


> Quantum Windbag said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Noomi said:
> 
> 
> 
> If I had to choose between simply being deaf, or being raped, I would prefer to be deaf. I am already partially deaf anyway, so it wouldn't matter to me.
> 
> That's a better choice, unlike yours of being limbless and sightless.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What about being blind?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Being blind is in no way related to being raped. What is similar to being raped?
Click to expand...


Just admit you were wrong, you will feel better.


----------



## Quantum Windbag

Saigon said:


> Quantum Windbag said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Saigon said:
> 
> 
> 
> Says the person who insists on equating rape with being crippled.
> 
> 
> btw. Isn't it nice how you consider other peoples morals to be "false"!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Feel free to point out where I said anything like that. Until then, let me point out that you are a lying scumbag piece of shit.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Here:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If I gave you a choice between a quadruple amputation accompanied by being blind and deaf or rape you would choose the first?
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


Where dos that say anything like you claim it says? I guess you are still a lying scumbag piece of shit.


----------



## Noomi

Quantum Windbag said:


> Noomi said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Quantum Windbag said:
> 
> 
> 
> Choosing rape over getting beaten is idiotic?
> 
> Choosing rape over the death of a child is idiotic?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The death of a child cannot be compared to rape, no matter how much you think the two are similar.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Women are faced with choosing between rape and the death of their children every day. You claiming there is no comparison does not mean that people are not forced to make that comparison.
Click to expand...


Women in the US and Australia are not faced with such a choice. Be realistic.


----------



## Saigon

Quantum Windbag said:


> Women are faced with choosing between rape and the death of their children every day. .



Are they? 

When? 

What ARE you talking about?


----------



## Noomi

Quantum Windbag said:


> Noomi said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Quantum Windbag said:
> 
> 
> 
> What about being blind?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Being blind is in no way related to being raped. What is similar to being raped?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Just admit you were wrong, you will feel better.
Click to expand...


Would you prefer to be gang raped by a group of men, or lose a leg?


----------



## Noomi

Saigon said:


> Quantum Windbag said:
> 
> 
> 
> Women are faced with choosing between rape and the death of their children every day. .
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Are they?
> 
> When?
> 
> What ARE you talking about?
Click to expand...


I don't think he knows!


----------



## koshergrl

Quantum Windbag said:


> Saigon said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Quantum Windbag said:
> 
> 
> 
> Feel free to point out where I said anything like that. Until then, let me point out that you are a lying scumbag piece of shit.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If I gave you a choice between a quadruple amputation accompanied by being blind and deaf or rape you would choose the first?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Where dos that say anything like you claim it says? I guess you are still a lying scumbag piece of shit.
Click to expand...


While i've no doubt he is a lying scumbag piece of shit, I think in this case, he's just supremely stupid. What a ding dong.


----------



## Saigon

Noomi said:


> Saigon said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Quantum Windbag said:
> 
> 
> 
> Women are faced with choosing between rape and the death of their children every day. .
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Are they?
> 
> When?
> 
> What ARE you talking about?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I don't think he knows!
Click to expand...


That really is one of the weirdest claims I have even seen made on this board. I guess he had something in mind when he posted it, but still....very, very strange. 


Kosher - 

Can you try and keep the mindless spamming to a minimum?


----------



## Quantum Windbag

Noomi said:


> Quantum Windbag said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Noomi said:
> 
> 
> 
> The death of a child cannot be compared to rape, no matter how much you think the two are similar.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Women are faced with choosing between rape and the death of their children every day. You claiming there is no comparison does not mean that people are not forced to make that comparison.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Women in the US and Australia are not faced with such a choice. Be realistic.
Click to expand...


Seriously? You can't possibly be that stupid. Even if that absurd claim is true, why does it make a difference? Do you only care about women in the US and Australia?


----------



## Noomi

Quantum Windbag said:


> Noomi said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Quantum Windbag said:
> 
> 
> 
> Women are faced with choosing between rape and the death of their children every day. You claiming there is no comparison does not mean that people are not forced to make that comparison.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Women in the US and Australia are not faced with such a choice. Be realistic.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Seriously? You can't possibly be that stupid. Even if that absurd claim is true, why does it make a difference? Do you only care about women in the US and Australia?
Click to expand...


A woman in Saudi Arabia or some such country has nothing to do with me.


----------



## Quantum Windbag

Noomi said:


> Quantum Windbag said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Noomi said:
> 
> 
> 
> Being blind is in no way related to being raped. What is similar to being raped?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Just admit you were wrong, you will feel better.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Would you prefer to be gang raped by a group of men, or lose a leg?
Click to expand...


I have no idea. I do know I would rather be gang raped than allow someone I care about to be hurt. I guess that means I am trivializing rape because I think it is less than the pain someone else might feel.


----------



## Noomi

Quantum Windbag said:


> Noomi said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Quantum Windbag said:
> 
> 
> 
> Just admit you were wrong, you will feel better.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Would you prefer to be gang raped by a group of men, or lose a leg?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I have no idea. I do know I would rather be gang raped than allow someone I care about to be hurt. I guess that means I am trivializing rape because I think it is less than the pain someone else might feel.
Click to expand...


So you would prefer to be gang raped rather than have a friend hit in the face, causing only a minor injury, while a major injury was inflicted on yourself?


----------



## Noomi

I do like that you couldn't answer the question. You said 'I have no idea' but you expected me to answer your bogus question.


----------



## Saigon

QW - 



> Women are faced with choosing between rape and the death of their children every day.



Asking for the 2nd time now - what the hell does this mean?


----------



## Quantum Windbag

Saigon said:


> Noomi said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Saigon said:
> 
> 
> 
> Are they?
> 
> When?
> 
> What ARE you talking about?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I don't think he knows!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> That really is one of the weirdest claims I have even seen made on this board. I guess he had something in mind when he posted it, but still....very, very strange.
> 
> 
> Kosher -
> 
> Can you try and keep the mindless spamming to a minimum?
Click to expand...


You don't think a rapist ever tells a woman that if she doesn't cooperate he will kill her children? I was wrong, even a lying scumbag piece of shit wouldn't try to sell that one. I owe all the lying scumbag pieces of shit of the world an apology.


----------



## Quantum Windbag

Noomi said:


> Quantum Windbag said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Noomi said:
> 
> 
> 
> Women in the US and Australia are not faced with such a choice. Be realistic.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Seriously? You can't possibly be that stupid. Even if that absurd claim is true, why does it make a difference? Do you only care about women in the US and Australia?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> A woman in Saudi Arabia or some such country has nothing to do with me.
Click to expand...


And you wonder why I think say are an asshole.


----------



## Noomi

Quantum Windbag said:


> Saigon said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Noomi said:
> 
> 
> 
> I don't think he knows!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That really is one of the weirdest claims I have even seen made on this board. I guess he had something in mind when he posted it, but still....very, very strange.
> 
> 
> Kosher -
> 
> Can you try and keep the mindless spamming to a minimum?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You don't think a rapist ever tells a woman that if she doesn't cooperate he will kill her children? I was wrong, even a lying scumbag piece of shit wouldn't try to sell that one. I owe all the lying scumbag pieces of shit of the world an apology.
Click to expand...


He usually tells her that if she speaks to the police, he will track her down and kill her. There is not usually any mention of children - unless the rapist knew she had children BEFORE he raped her.


----------



## Noomi

Quantum Windbag said:


> Noomi said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Quantum Windbag said:
> 
> 
> 
> Seriously? You can't possibly be that stupid. Even if that absurd claim is true, why does it make a difference? Do you only care about women in the US and Australia?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A woman in Saudi Arabia or some such country has nothing to do with me.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> And you wonder why I think say are an asshole.
Click to expand...


What does a woman in another country have to do with me? Please, tell me, oh enlightened one.


----------



## Quantum Windbag

Noomi said:


> Quantum Windbag said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Noomi said:
> 
> 
> 
> Would you prefer to be gang raped by a group of men, or lose a leg?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I have no idea. I do know I would rather be gang raped than allow someone I care about to be hurt. I guess that means I am trivializing rape because I think it is less than the pain someone else might feel.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> So you would prefer to be gang raped rather than have a friend hit in the face, causing only a minor injury, while a major injury was inflicted on yourself?
Click to expand...


I said someone I care about, not someone I know.


----------



## Quantum Windbag

Noomi said:


> I do like that you couldn't answer the question. You said 'I have no idea' but you expected me to answer your bogus question.



My question was not bogus, and I actually answered yours. You still loose.


----------



## Noomi

Quantum Windbag said:


> Noomi said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Quantum Windbag said:
> 
> 
> 
> I have no idea. I do know I would rather be gang raped than allow someone I care about to be hurt. I guess that means I am trivializing rape because I think it is less than the pain someone else might feel.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So you would prefer to be gang raped rather than have a friend hit in the face, causing only a minor injury, while a major injury was inflicted on yourself?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I said someone I care about, not someone I know.
Click to expand...


You care about a friend, and you know them. You care about a family member, and you also know them.
Where is the difference?


----------



## koshergrl

Noomi said:


> Saigon said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Quantum Windbag said:
> 
> 
> 
> Women are faced with choosing between rape and the death of their children every day. .
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Are they?
> 
> When?
> 
> What ARE you talking about?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I don't think he knows!
Click to expand...


Darfur, scum.


----------



## Quantum Windbag

Noomi said:


> Quantum Windbag said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Saigon said:
> 
> 
> 
> That really is one of the weirdest claims I have even seen made on this board. I guess he had something in mind when he posted it, but still....very, very strange.
> 
> 
> Kosher -
> 
> Can you try and keep the mindless spamming to a minimum?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You don't think a rapist ever tells a woman that if she doesn't cooperate he will kill her children? I was wrong, even a lying scumbag piece of shit wouldn't try to sell that one. I owe all the lying scumbag pieces of shit of the world an apology.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> He usually tells her that if she speaks to the police, he will track her down and kill her. There is not usually any mention of children - unless the rapist knew she had children BEFORE he raped her.
Click to expand...


You know this because you are an expert on rape?

I will also point out that just because it does not always happen that it does not mean it never happens.


----------



## Noomi

Quantum Windbag said:


> Noomi said:
> 
> 
> 
> I do like that you couldn't answer the question. You said 'I have no idea' but you expected me to answer your bogus question.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> My question was not bogus, and I actually answered yours. You still loose.
Click to expand...


So, would you rather be gang raped, having massive injury caused to yourself, rather than see someone you love hit in the face, causing only minor injury?


----------



## Noomi

Quantum Windbag said:


> Noomi said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Quantum Windbag said:
> 
> 
> 
> You don't think a rapist ever tells a woman that if she doesn't cooperate he will kill her children? I was wrong, even a lying scumbag piece of shit wouldn't try to sell that one. I owe all the lying scumbag pieces of shit of the world an apology.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> He usually tells her that if she speaks to the police, he will track her down and kill her. There is not usually any mention of children - unless the rapist knew she had children BEFORE he raped her.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You know this because you are an expert on rape?
Click to expand...


Tell me why a rapist would threaten to kill the children of a woman if she didn't have kids.


----------



## koshergrl

Noomi said:


> Quantum Windbag said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Noomi said:
> 
> 
> 
> A woman in Saudi Arabia or some such country has nothing to do with me.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And you wonder why I think say are an asshole.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> What does a woman in another country have to do with me? Please, tell me, oh enlightened one.
Click to expand...


you are an asshole.


----------



## Noomi

koshergrl said:


> Noomi said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Quantum Windbag said:
> 
> 
> 
> And you wonder why I think say are an asshole.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What does a woman in another country have to do with me? Please, tell me, oh enlightened one.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> you are an asshole.
Click to expand...


So what you do in your private life should concern me, is that it?


----------



## Quantum Windbag

Noomi said:


> Quantum Windbag said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Noomi said:
> 
> 
> 
> I do like that you couldn't answer the question. You said 'I have no idea' but you expected me to answer your bogus question.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> My question was not bogus, and I actually answered yours. You still loose.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> So, would you rather be gang raped, having massive injury caused to yourself, rather than see someone you love hit in the face, causing only minor injury?
Click to expand...


Yes. Does that trivialize rape, or does it prove you are an idiot for trying to argue that rape is the worst possible experience?


----------



## koshergrl

i think noomi has moved into the most repugnant poster spot.


----------



## Quantum Windbag

Noomi said:


> Quantum Windbag said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Noomi said:
> 
> 
> 
> He usually tells her that if she speaks to the police, he will track her down and kill her. There is not usually any mention of children - unless the rapist knew she had children BEFORE he raped her.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You know this because you are an expert on rape?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Tell me why a rapist would threaten to kill the children of a woman if she didn't have kids.
Click to expand...


Tell me why that question even makes sense.


----------



## Noomi

Quantum Windbag said:


> Noomi said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Quantum Windbag said:
> 
> 
> 
> You know this because you are an expert on rape?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tell me why a rapist would threaten to kill the children of a woman if she didn't have kids.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Tell me why that question even makes sense.
Click to expand...


Because it isn't what a rapist will say - and how the fuck would you know that rapists say this to the woman they rape anyway? I'd love to know.


----------



## Quantum Windbag

koshergrl said:


> i think noomi has moved into the most repugnant poster spot.



I think she is trying for it.


----------



## Noomi

koshergrl said:


> i think noomi has moved into the most repugnant poster spot.



Just because we don't always agree, doesn't mean I should be labeled like that. I don't label you like that, KG. I expect the same respect in return.


----------



## Noomi

Quantum Windbag said:


> Noomi said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Quantum Windbag said:
> 
> 
> 
> My question was not bogus, and I actually answered yours. You still loose.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So, would you rather be gang raped, having massive injury caused to yourself, rather than see someone you love hit in the face, causing only minor injury?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yes. Does that trivialize rape, or does it prove you are an idiot for trying to argue that rape is the worst possible experience?
Click to expand...


No, it just makes you an idiot. No one with common sense would prefer to be horribly injured just to prevent someone from getting a scratch.


----------



## GWV5903

Where do you come up with this crap...

Rape is what percentage of abortions...


----------



## Quantum Windbag

Noomi said:


> Quantum Windbag said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Noomi said:
> 
> 
> 
> Tell me why a rapist would threaten to kill the children of a woman if she didn't have kids.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tell me why that question even makes sense.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Because it isn't what a rapist will say - and how the fuck would you know that rapists say this to the woman they rape anyway? I'd love to know.
Click to expand...


Why do I know that? Could it be because I actually pay attention to the world?

RTV6 - Police: Rapist Threatened To Rape, Kill Victim's Children - News Story


----------



## Noomi

Quantum Windbag said:


> Noomi said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Quantum Windbag said:
> 
> 
> 
> Tell me why that question even makes sense.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Because it isn't what a rapist will say - and how the fuck would you know that rapists say this to the woman they rape anyway? I'd love to know.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Why do I know that? Could it be because I actually pay attention to the world?
> 
> RTV6 - Police: Rapist Threatened To Rape, Kill Victim's Children - News Story
Click to expand...


Wow. One single news story. Must mean that every rapist threatens the same thing.


----------



## Quantum Windbag

Noomi said:


> Quantum Windbag said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Noomi said:
> 
> 
> 
> So, would you rather be gang raped, having massive injury caused to yourself, rather than see someone you love hit in the face, causing only minor injury?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes. Does that trivialize rape, or does it prove you are an idiot for trying to argue that rape is the worst possible experience?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No, it just makes you an idiot. No one with common sense would prefer to be horribly injured just to prevent someone from getting a scratch.
Click to expand...


People wreck cars to avoid hitting dogs and cats.


----------



## Noomi

GWV5903 said:


> Where do you come up with this crap...
> 
> Rape is what percentage of abortions...



It doesn't matter. A rape victim should be entitled to an abortion if she wants one.


----------



## Quantum Windbag

Noomi said:


> Quantum Windbag said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Noomi said:
> 
> 
> 
> Because it isn't what a rapist will say - and how the fuck would you know that rapists say this to the woman they rape anyway? I'd love to know.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Why do I know that? Could it be because I actually pay attention to the world?
> 
> RTV6 - Police: Rapist Threatened To Rape, Kill Victim's Children - News Story
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Wow. One single news story. Must mean that every rapist threatens the same thing.
Click to expand...


Just can't admit you are wrong, can you?

Do you honestly think this is the first guy in history to think of this?


----------



## Noomi

Quantum Windbag said:


> Noomi said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Quantum Windbag said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yes. Does that trivialize rape, or does it prove you are an idiot for trying to argue that rape is the worst possible experience?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No, it just makes you an idiot. No one with common sense would prefer to be horribly injured just to prevent someone from getting a scratch.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> People wreck cars to avoid hitting dogs and cats.
Click to expand...


Its natural instinct to swerve out of the way. You don't think about it beforehand, its just reflex.
If you hated animals, you would probably run it over.


----------



## Noomi

Quantum Windbag said:


> Noomi said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Quantum Windbag said:
> 
> 
> 
> Why do I know that? Could it be because I actually pay attention to the world?
> 
> RTV6 - Police: Rapist Threatened To Rape, Kill Victim's Children - News Story
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wow. One single news story. Must mean that every rapist threatens the same thing.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Just can't admit you are wrong, can you?
> 
> Do you honestly think this is the first guy in history to think of this?
Click to expand...


Does every rapist threaten to kill the children of the woman he has raped?


----------



## koshergrl

I'm not labeling you, I'm describing you. You do deserve it, for the stupid things you say about women and children. From not caring about women being tortured and killed in the middle east, to your callous comments about the unborn, and indeed, your over the top offensive comment about a light sentence for the little girl brutally abused in the other thread....your comments are disgusting and show a complete lack of compassion or regard for life. Even your comments about your DOGS show that you are uncaring and self absorbed. I don't find you repugnant because we have different views..I find you repugnant because you say horrific things. I'm sorry nobody has ever said that to you before. But your comments show a lack of character and a shallowness or absence of soul.


----------



## Quantum Windbag

Noomi said:


> Quantum Windbag said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Noomi said:
> 
> 
> 
> No, it just makes you an idiot. No one with common sense would prefer to be horribly injured just to prevent someone from getting a scratch.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> People wreck cars to avoid hitting dogs and cats.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Its natural instinct to swerve out of the way. You don't think about it beforehand, its just reflex.
> If you hated animals, you would probably run it over.
Click to expand...


If I think my life, and the life of my family, is worth more than a dog or cat, I might do the same thing.


----------



## Quantum Windbag

Noomi said:


> Quantum Windbag said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Noomi said:
> 
> 
> 
> Wow. One single news story. Must mean that every rapist threatens the same thing.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Just can't admit you are wrong, can you?
> 
> Do you honestly think this is the first guy in history to think of this?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Does every rapist threaten to kill the children of the woman he has raped?
Click to expand...


Just admit you were wrong, you will feel better.


----------



## koshergrl

Noomi said:


> Quantum Windbag said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Noomi said:
> 
> 
> 
> So, would you rather be gang raped, having massive injury caused to yourself, rather than see someone you love hit in the face, causing only minor injury?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes. Does that trivialize rape, or does it prove you are an idiot for trying to argue that rape is the worst possible experience?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No, it just makes you an idiot. No one with common sense would prefer to be horribly injured just to prevent someone from getting a scratch.
Click to expand...


How many people have you seen get hit in the face?

Anyway, yet more evidence that you believe the pain and suffering of others is to be dismissed, and that it's acceptable to sacrifice the well being and safety of others to save your own skin.

nice. I don't know what to say except...that is repugnant.


----------



## Noomi

koshergrl said:


> Noomi said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Quantum Windbag said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yes. Does that trivialize rape, or does it prove you are an idiot for trying to argue that rape is the worst possible experience?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No, it just makes you an idiot. No one with common sense would prefer to be horribly injured just to prevent someone from getting a scratch.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> How many people have you seen get hit in the face?
> 
> Anyway, yet more evidence that you believe the pain and suffering of others is to be dismissed, and that it's acceptable to sacrifice the well being and safety of others to save your own skin.
> 
> nice. I don't know what to say except...that is repugnant.
Click to expand...


If I knew I had a choice between being seriously injured, or allowing a loved one to be injured slightly, knowing they would easily recover, they can be the ones to be injured. A small injury is a lot easier to deal with than a major injury.
It doesn't mean I don't love my family, or want them to be injured. I don't. But you should go with whoever has the best chance of a full recovery.


----------



## Quantum Windbag

Noomi said:


> koshergrl said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Noomi said:
> 
> 
> 
> No, it just makes you an idiot. No one with common sense would prefer to be horribly injured just to prevent someone from getting a scratch.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How many people have you seen get hit in the face?
> 
> Anyway, yet more evidence that you believe the pain and suffering of others is to be dismissed, and that it's acceptable to sacrifice the well being and safety of others to save your own skin.
> 
> nice. I don't know what to say except...that is repugnant.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> If I knew I had a choice between being seriously injured, or allowing a loved one to be injured slightly, knowing they would easily recover, they can be the ones to be injured. A small injury is a lot easier to deal with than a major injury.
> It doesn't mean I don't love my family, or want them to be injured. I don't. But you should go with whoever has the best chance of a full recovery.
Click to expand...


The question was not about serious injury though, it was about rape, which is mostly psychological. I can deal with the psych stuff a lot easier if it is me.


----------



## koshergrl

yeah whatever.

You are willing to sacrifice others to save yourself. God it.

BTW, you have no idea when someone gets hit in the face what sort of injury they're going to sustain. You're risking their life and well being.

But that's okay, you play the odds to keep your own skin whole.

I would take ANY punishment to keep ANYONE from laying hostile hands on my children. I don't care if they promised to hurt them *only a little bit*. 

And that's what separates humans from animals.

Except even animals will die protecting those they love. Even from imagined harm. You don't even rise up to the level of a dog.


----------



## Noomi

koshergrl said:


> I'm not labeling you, I'm describing you. You do deserve it, for the stupid things you say about women and children. From not caring about women being tortured and killed in the middle east, to your callous comments about the unborn, and indeed, your over the top offensive comment about a light sentence for the little girl brutally abused in the other thread....your comments are disgusting and show a complete lack of compassion or regard for life. Even your comments about your DOGS show that you are uncaring and self absorbed. I don't find you repugnant because we have different views..I find you repugnant because you say horrific things. I'm sorry nobody has ever said that to you before. But your comments show a lack of character and a shallowness or absence of soul.



Of course I care about women who are raped and killed in overseas countries. I am sorry you assume otherwise, but they have nothing to do with this subject, which is why I am getting a bit pissed off.
My opinion on abortion does not make me a horrible person, I simply have a differing opinion to you.

The dogs are NOT MINE. They do not belong to me. They simply live in my house.

I find you to be appalling at times, but I have never, and WOULD NEVER, say you were a horrible person because of it. I hate some of your opinions, but I would never say that I hated you because of those opinions.

I actually have respect for you, no matter what you think of me. Shame you don't have the same.


----------



## Noomi

koshergrl said:


> yeah whatever.
> 
> You are willing to sacrifice others to save yourself. God it.
> 
> BTW, you have no idea when someone gets hit in the face what sort of injury they're going to sustain. You're risking their life and well being.
> 
> But that's okay, you play the odds to keep your own skin whole.
> 
> I would take ANY punishment to keep ANYONE from laying hostile hands on my children. I don't care if they promised to hurt them *only a little bit*.
> 
> And that's what separates humans from animals.
> 
> Except even animals will die protecting those they love. Even from imagined harm. You don't even rise up to the level of a dog.



But if you KNEW that all that person would get was a scratch. If you had no idea the injury they would sustain, the choice might be different. I am speaking of what you would know, not what might happen.
Obviously, if I had kids, I would give my life for them. But I don't yet have children.


----------



## Noomi

Quantum Windbag said:


> Noomi said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> koshergrl said:
> 
> 
> 
> How many people have you seen get hit in the face?
> 
> Anyway, yet more evidence that you believe the pain and suffering of others is to be dismissed, and that it's acceptable to sacrifice the well being and safety of others to save your own skin.
> 
> nice. I don't know what to say except...that is repugnant.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If I knew I had a choice between being seriously injured, or allowing a loved one to be injured slightly, knowing they would easily recover, they can be the ones to be injured. A small injury is a lot easier to deal with than a major injury.
> It doesn't mean I don't love my family, or want them to be injured. I don't. But you should go with whoever has the best chance of a full recovery.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The question was not about serious injury though, it was about rape, which is mostly psychological. I can deal with the psych stuff a lot easier if it is me.
Click to expand...


A rape often causes serious physical injury.


----------



## Quantum Windbag

Noomi said:


> koshergrl said:
> 
> 
> 
> yeah whatever.
> 
> You are willing to sacrifice others to save yourself. God it.
> 
> BTW, you have no idea when someone gets hit in the face what sort of injury they're going to sustain. You're risking their life and well being.
> 
> But that's okay, you play the odds to keep your own skin whole.
> 
> I would take ANY punishment to keep ANYONE from laying hostile hands on my children. I don't care if they promised to hurt them *only a little bit*.
> 
> And that's what separates humans from animals.
> 
> Except even animals will die protecting those they love. Even from imagined harm. You don't even rise up to the level of a dog.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But if you KNEW that all that person would get was a scratch. If you had no idea the injury they would sustain, the choice might be different. I am speaking of what you would know, not what might happen.
> Obviously, if I had kids, I would give my life for them. But I don't yet have children.
Click to expand...


The thing about getting punched in the face is that you don't actually know what will happen. It might be a scratch, or it might cause a brain embolism and death. How would you feel in the, admittedly unlikely, case of you choosing to see your best friend punched in the face over you getting hurt, and then watching them die?


----------



## Quantum Windbag

Noomi said:


> Quantum Windbag said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Noomi said:
> 
> 
> 
> If I knew I had a choice between being seriously injured, or allowing a loved one to be injured slightly, knowing they would easily recover, they can be the ones to be injured. A small injury is a lot easier to deal with than a major injury.
> It doesn't mean I don't love my family, or want them to be injured. I don't. But you should go with whoever has the best chance of a full recovery.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The question was not about serious injury though, it was about rape, which is mostly psychological. I can deal with the psych stuff a lot easier if it is me.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> A rape often causes serious physical injury.
Click to expand...


So do punches, what's your point?


----------



## Noomi

Quantum Windbag said:


> Noomi said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> koshergrl said:
> 
> 
> 
> yeah whatever.
> 
> You are willing to sacrifice others to save yourself. God it.
> 
> BTW, you have no idea when someone gets hit in the face what sort of injury they're going to sustain. You're risking their life and well being.
> 
> But that's okay, you play the odds to keep your own skin whole.
> 
> I would take ANY punishment to keep ANYONE from laying hostile hands on my children. I don't care if they promised to hurt them *only a little bit*.
> 
> And that's what separates humans from animals.
> 
> Except even animals will die protecting those they love. Even from imagined harm. You don't even rise up to the level of a dog.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But if you KNEW that all that person would get was a scratch. If you had no idea the injury they would sustain, the choice might be different. I am speaking of what you would know, not what might happen.
> Obviously, if I had kids, I would give my life for them. But I don't yet have children.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The thing about getting punched in the face is that you don't actually know what will happen. It might be a scratch, or it might cause a brain embolism and death. How would you feel in the, admittedly unlikely, case of you choosing to see your best friend punched in the face over you getting hurt and then watching them die?
Click to expand...


If I knew they would walk away from it, they can be the one to endure. If I knew they would be severely injured, I would make a different choice.
Obviously you can't tell what would happen, which is why the comparison is so ridiculous.


----------



## Noomi

Quantum Windbag said:


> Noomi said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Quantum Windbag said:
> 
> 
> 
> The question was not about serious injury though, it was about rape, which is mostly psychological. I can deal with the psych stuff a lot easier if it is me.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A rape often causes serious physical injury.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> So do punches, what's your point?
Click to expand...


You said rape was mostly psychological. I was simply saying that it wasn't. No point was meant by my statement.


----------



## Care4all

Why did Adam, (man) not have life when God was forming him, and only had life when he took his first breath, when God breathed life into him?

Can anyone religious, (NOT YOU koshergirl) please explain that?


----------



## koshergrl

Noomi said:


> koshergrl said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not labeling you, I'm describing you. You do deserve it, for the stupid things you say about women and children. From not caring about women being tortured and killed in the middle east, to your callous comments about the unborn, and indeed, your over the top offensive comment about a light sentence for the little girl brutally abused in the other thread....your comments are disgusting and show a complete lack of compassion or regard for life. Even your comments about your DOGS show that you are uncaring and self absorbed. I don't find you repugnant because we have different views..I find you repugnant because you say horrific things. I'm sorry nobody has ever said that to you before. But your comments show a lack of character and a shallowness or absence of soul.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Of course I care about women ho are raped and killed in overseas countries. I am sorry you assume otherwise, but they have nothing to do with this subject, which is why I am getting a bit pissed off.
> My opinion on abortion does not make me a horrible person, I simply have a differing opinion to you.
> 
> The dogs are NOT MINE. They do not belong to me. They simply live in my house.
> 
> I find you to be appalling at times, but I have never, and WOULD NEVER, say you were a horrible person because of it. I hate some of your opinions, but I would never say that I hated you because of those opinions.
> 
> I actually have respect for you, no matter what you think of me. Shame you don't have the same.
Click to expand...


I assume otherwise because you sneeringly dismissed them, after it was stupidly stated that nobody had to choose between rape and the lives of loved ones. You asked what they have to do with YOU. Well they have nothing to do with YOU, not everything has something to do with YOU....but that was the example of the situation that it was said didn't exist. 

I'm not a horrible person. I hope you aren't. But the things you write make my blood run cold. I don't know if you're really young and just don't know how you come across or what, but that degree of disdain for the life and well being of others is a serious character flaw that honestly you should address and quick. People sometimes have to make themselves care about other beings, they aren't always hardwired to do it...usually parents will catch this in children and can shape them as they raise them and help them to grow into somewhat empathetic people, eventually. But for some people, for whatever reason it doesn't take root. I don't see any empathy in you. Maybe you're just projecting what you think is a tough persona, or maybe it's just that you aren't able to relate that part of your personality through the written word...I hope so. But people are going to react negatively to it. People don't like to hear/read about how it's okay to allow someone else to be hurt if you think they would suffer less than you would...people don't like to hear that you think a particularly cold and brutal child abuser should just get a slap on the wrist...people don't like to hear someone talking about how they think a dog should be grateful to them....these aren't endearing characteristics.


----------



## Quantum Windbag

Noomi said:


> Quantum Windbag said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Noomi said:
> 
> 
> 
> But if you KNEW that all that person would get was a scratch. If you had no idea the injury they would sustain, the choice might be different. I am speaking of what you would know, not what might happen.
> Obviously, if I had kids, I would give my life for them. But I don't yet have children.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The thing about getting punched in the face is that you don't actually know what will happen. It might be a scratch, or it might cause a brain embolism and death. How would you feel in the, admittedly unlikely, case of you choosing to see your best friend punched in the face over you getting hurt and then watching them die?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> If I knew they would walk away from it, they can be the one to endure. If I knew they would be severely injured, I would make a different choice.
> Obviously you can't tell what would happen, which is why the comparison is so ridiculous.
Click to expand...


The whole fucking point is that, unless you are God, you don't know what is going to happen when someone gets punched in the face. 

Are you God? If not, why do you keep insisting I am comparing things when I am presenting hypothetical choices?


----------



## Quantum Windbag

Noomi said:


> Quantum Windbag said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Noomi said:
> 
> 
> 
> A rape often causes serious physical injury.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So do punches, what's your point?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You said rape was mostly psychological. I was simply saying that it wasn't. No point was meant by my statement.
Click to expand...


Are you saying that, without the physical damage, rape is not a big deal? If not, what the fuck is your point?


----------



## Quantum Windbag

Care4all said:


> Why did Adam, (man) not have life when God was forming him, and only had life when he took his first breath, when God breathed life into him?
> 
> Can anyone religious, (NOT YOU koshergirl) please explain that?



Yes.


----------



## C_Clayton_Jones

> When asked whether he would make an exception for rape victims, Berg said he would not, but refused to be specific on the penalty for women seeking an abortion if it was illegal



Cowardice typical of most conservatives; or the issue was never abortion.


----------



## Saigon

Saigon said:


> Quantum Windbag said:
> 
> 
> 
> Women are faced with choosing between rape and the death of their children every day. .
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Are they?
> 
> When?
> 
> What ARE you talking about?
Click to expand...


We didn't get an explanation for that, I see. 

I am surprised.


----------



## Katzndogz

Whether or not rape is the most traumatizing thing a woman can go through actually depends on what kind of rape is it.   A woman who is assailed in a dark alley by a stranger, beaten, her clothes ripped off and raped, then left for dead naked and alone is going to be far more traumatized than a woman who is drugged and date raped and has no idea or memory of the act.    She's not traumatized at all.


----------



## koshergrl

Saigon said:


> Saigon said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Quantum Windbag said:
> 
> 
> 
> Women are faced with choosing between rape and the death of their children every day. .
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Are they?
> 
> When?
> 
> What ARE you talking about?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> We didn't get an explanation for that, I see.
> 
> I am surprised.
Click to expand...


Actually, you got an explanation from two people, and some pretty heated back and forth.

I assume you don't read.


----------



## koshergrl

Quantum Windbag said:


> Noomi said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Quantum Windbag said:
> 
> 
> 
> So do punches, what's your point?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You said rape was mostly psychological. I was simply saying that it wasn't. No point was meant by my statement.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Are you saying that, without the physical damage, rape is not a big deal? If not, what the fuck is your point?
Click to expand...


No, what she's saying is that rape happening to her is more horrible than anything that could be done to anyone else, including physical attack.

She's saying her well being and comfort trumps all.


----------



## Katzndogz

There is a tendency to lump all forms of rape into one big traumatizing event equally when that isn't the case at all.   There is rape that is a traumatizing event.   There is being assaulted, beaten and robbed without rape that's traumatizing too.   Rape has become an excuse to justify ALL abortion.  As if every unwanted or unplanned pregnancy was the result of rape.


----------



## Quantum Windbag

C_Clayton_Jones said:


> When asked whether he would make an exception for rape victims, Berg said he would not, but refused to be specific on the penalty for women seeking an abortion if it was illegal
> 
> 
> 
> Cowardice typical of most conservatives; or the issue was never abortion.
Click to expand...


The issue is how stupid you are.


----------



## Quantum Windbag

Saigon said:


> Saigon said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Quantum Windbag said:
> 
> 
> 
> Women are faced with choosing between rape and the death of their children every day. .
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Are they?
> 
> When?
> 
> What ARE you talking about?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> We didn't get an explanation for that, I see.
> 
> I am surprised.
Click to expand...


You have a mouse in your pocket? Even Noomi knows that I am right.


----------



## Quantum Windbag

koshergrl said:


> Saigon said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Saigon said:
> 
> 
> 
> Are they?
> 
> When?
> 
> What ARE you talking about?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We didn't get an explanation for that, I see.
> 
> I am surprised.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Actually, you got an explanation from two people, and some pretty heated back and forth.
> 
> I assume you don't read.
Click to expand...


I assume that too.


----------



## Quantum Windbag

koshergrl said:


> Quantum Windbag said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Noomi said:
> 
> 
> 
> You said rape was mostly psychological. I was simply saying that it wasn't. No point was meant by my statement.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Are you saying that, without the physical damage, rape is not a big deal? If not, what the fuck is your point?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No, what she's saying is that rape happening to her is more horrible than anything that could be done to anyone else, including physical attack.
> 
> She's saying her well being and comfort trumps all.
Click to expand...


That explains a lot. Unfortunately, for her, I disagree, and will continue to rub her nose in the real world.


----------



## Katzndogz

If a woman is raped and gets pregnant then has an  abortion, the rapist should be prosecuted for murder.    As it stands, the only people impacted are the woman and perhaps the doctor.  The rapist gets away with this death like it wasn't his fault.


----------



## Quantum Windbag

Katzndogz said:


> If a woman is raped and gets pregnant then has an  abortion, the rapist should be prosecuted for murder.    As it stands, the only people impacted are the woman and perhaps the doctor.  The rapist gets away with this death like it wasn't his fault.



That would even follow current legal theory that lets the government charge someone with murder if someone has a heart attack when you point a gun at them.


----------



## Jimmy_Jam

Would somebody explain to me how abortion qualifies as murder? It has never been defined as murder throughout the history of the U.S. Are people that call it murder talking about something that they think IS, or something they wish it to be?

I will go on the record as saying I personally find abortion something to be avoided. I've just never understood the "murder" premise.


----------



## Quantum Windbag

Jimmy_Jam said:


> Would somebody explain to me how abortion qualifies as murder? It has never been defined as murder throughout the history of the U.S. Are people that call it murder talking about something that they think IS, or something they wish it to be?
> 
> I will go on the record as saying I personally find abortion something to be avoided. I've just never understood the "murder" premise.



Nice to see you popping in and proving you know as little about history as you do faith.


----------



## Jimmy_Jam

Quantum Windbag said:


> Jimmy_Jam said:
> 
> 
> 
> Would somebody explain to me how abortion qualifies as murder? It has never been defined as murder throughout the history of the U.S. Are people that call it murder talking about something that they think IS, or something they wish it to be?
> 
> I will go on the record as saying I personally find abortion something to be avoided. I've just never understood the "murder" premise.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Nice to see you popping in and proving you know as little about history as you do faith.
Click to expand...


Nice.

Okay, so will you show me where abortion has ever been defined as murder under U.S. law then?


----------



## Rinata

Quantum Windbag said:


> Noomi said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> luddly.neddite said:
> 
> 
> 
> Rick Berg, North Dakota GOP Senate Candidate: No Abortion Access For Rape Victims
> 
> He must plan on raising the unwanted fetus. I mean, surely he would not demand the power to control women's lives unless he also planned to take responsibility for his power over them.
> 
> He probably also believes in slavery - ultimate control over people's lives.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Republicans have more compassion for a clump of cells than for a traumatised woman who has been through the worst thing any woman could ever experience.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> If you think rape is the worst thing any woman can ever experience you are an idiot.
Click to expand...


The arrogance of conservatism never ceases to amaze me. Now you are telling people what to think?? You have no right to do that. If that's what she thinks, that's what she thinks.


----------



## Quantum Windbag

Rinata said:


> Quantum Windbag said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Noomi said:
> 
> 
> 
> Republicans have more compassion for a clump of cells than for a traumatised woman who has been through the worst thing any woman could ever experience.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If you think rape is the worst thing any woman can ever experience you are an idiot.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The arrogance of conservatism never ceases to amaze me. Now you are telling people what to think?? You have no right to do that. If that's what she thinks, that's what she thinks.
Click to expand...


You can think whatever the fuck you want. If you chose to think that rape is the worst possible experience it is possible for a woman to undergo I will call you an idiot. I provided plenty of examples of worst experiences to make my point, and can provide more if you want to desire to be even more idiotic than Noomi.


----------



## Jimmy_Jam

What counts as worst possible experiences? It doesn't get much more subjective than that. I'm not a woman, so I can't comment on what a woman finds horrible. Men and women aren't exactly wired the same, neither physically nor emotionally. Speaking for myself, I can't imagine too many things much worse than if I were anally raped, but then that's just me. I have to assume there are other men that may think differently.

I don't really see what that has to do with the matter one way or another.


----------



## Quantum Windbag

Jimmy_Jam said:


> What counts as worst possible experiences? It doesn't get much more subjective than that. I'm not a woman, so I can't comment on what a woman finds horrible. Men and women aren't exactly wired the same, neither physically nor emotionally. Speaking for myself, I can't imagine too many things much worse than if I were anally raped, but then that's just me. I have to assume there are other men that may think differently.
> 
> I don't really see what that has to do with the matter one way or another.



If a woman is threatened with something, and chooses to be raped, that means she thinks that the alternative is worse than rape. Anyone with an IQ about the freezing point of water would grasp that without explanation. Noomi is the one that made the ridiculous claim the fact that I have spent so much time pointing out the obvious just shows how brain dead the pro abortion crowd is.


----------



## koshergrl

What noomi offered up was that if there are two people, and the choice is that she be raped, or the other person get hit, it just makes sense that the other person take the punishment. Because her rape is much, much worse than the physical abuse than another person would suffer. Therefore they should be happy to take the punishment, thus preserving her well being.


----------



## Rinata

Quantum Windbag said:


> Rinata said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Quantum Windbag said:
> 
> 
> 
> If you think rape is the worst thing any woman can ever experience you are an idiot.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The arrogance of conservatism never ceases to amaze me. Now you are telling people what to think?? You have no right to do that. If that's what she thinks, that's what she thinks.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You can think whatever the fuck you want. If you chose to think that rape is the worst possible experience it is possible for a woman to undergo I will call you an idiot. I provided plenty of examples of worst experiences to make my point, and can provide more if you want to desire to be even more idiotic than Noomi.
Click to expand...


What an absolute jerk you are. Those are what YOU consider the worst experiences any woman can have. But you cannot force it on other people. Throw as many tantrums as you want. You're WRONG!!!


----------



## Rinata

Quantum Windbag said:


> Jimmy_Jam said:
> 
> 
> 
> What counts as worst possible experiences? It doesn't get much more subjective than that. I'm not a woman, so I can't comment on what a woman finds horrible. Men and women aren't exactly wired the same, neither physically nor emotionally. Speaking for myself, I can't imagine too many things much worse than if I were anally raped, but then that's just me. I have to assume there are other men that may think differently.
> 
> I don't really see what that has to do with the matter one way or another.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If a woman is threatened with something, and chooses to be raped, that means she thinks that the alternative is worse than rape. Anyone with an IQ about the freezing point of water would grasp that without explanation. Noomi is the one that made the ridiculous claim the fact that I have spent so much time pointing out the obvious just shows how brain dead the pro abortion crowd is.
Click to expand...


Chooses to be raped??? You are an idiot.


----------



## koshergrl

Again, that scenario is the one that was put out there by noomi, not QW.


----------



## The Professor

Quantum Windbag said:


> Noomi said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> luddly.neddite said:
> 
> 
> 
> Rick Berg, North Dakota GOP Senate Candidate: No Abortion Access For Rape Victims
> 
> He must plan on raising the unwanted fetus. I mean, surely he would not demand the power to control women's lives unless he also planned to take responsibility for his power over them.
> 
> He probably also believes in slavery - ultimate control over people's lives.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Republicans have more compassion for a clump of cells than for a traumatised woman who has been through the worst thing any woman could ever experience.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> If you think rape is the worst thing any woman can ever experience you are an idiot.
Click to expand...


Rape: Not nearly as bad as overcooking the Thanksgiving turkey or getting a lousy perm, right?

If you cannot understand the trauma of rape, you will never comprehend  the beautiful, the mysterious, the sanctity of the feminine mystique.

I think the only thing that one could imagine that would be worse than rape would be murder. 

But, on the other hand, perhaps I am just an idiot.


----------



## koshergrl

No, that wasn't the argument at all.

noomi argued that rape was worse than anything that could ever happen to someone else, therefore, in a situation where the choice was between her getting raped, or someone else getting beaten, that other person should accept that their injuries would be less consequential than her own suffering, therefore they should accept the abuse and let her off.


----------



## koshergrl

She also maintained that rape was worse than anything else that could ever happen to a person, including attacks on children, and laughed at the concept that there are situations where women do indeed choose to be raped rather than have their loved ones tortured.


----------



## koshergrl

She obviously has no knowledge of Darfur, where women must leave the confines of their villages to seek water and food for their families, and are subsequently raped...they must make a very conscious choice and rape is a given...and they do it to protect their families..because when men or children leave the villages to seek water and food, they are beaten and/or killed.


----------



## Quantum Windbag

Rinata said:


> Quantum Windbag said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Rinata said:
> 
> 
> 
> The arrogance of conservatism never ceases to amaze me. Now you are telling people what to think?? You have no right to do that. If that's what she thinks, that's what she thinks.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You can think whatever the fuck you want. If you chose to think that rape is the worst possible experience it is possible for a woman to undergo I will call you an idiot. I provided plenty of examples of worst experiences to make my point, and can provide more if you want to desire to be even more idiotic than Noomi.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> What an absolute jerk you are. Those are what YOU consider the worst experiences any woman can have. But you cannot force it on other people. Throw as many tantrums as you want. You're WRONG!!!
Click to expand...


That's just it, I don't consider them the worst, I consider dying the worst, anything short of being dead is a plus. 

By the way, I am not forcing anything on anyone, nor am I throwing a tantrum. There are millions of women throughout history who, when faced with the prospect of rape, have chosen that over myriads of alternatives. That proves that they made the decision that rape was not nearly as devastating as the alternatives they faced. Every time you insist that you are correct in your claim that rape is worse than anything else that could possibly happen you insult those women.

That makes you the asshole in this conversation, it also makes you wrong. I would use caps to drive that point home, but I am saddened, not angry, by how pathetic you are.


----------



## Quantum Windbag

The Professor said:


> Quantum Windbag said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Noomi said:
> 
> 
> 
> Republicans have more compassion for a clump of cells than for a traumatised woman who has been through the worst thing any woman could ever experience.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If you think rape is the worst thing any woman can ever experience you are an idiot.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Rape: Not nearly as bad as overcooking the Thanksgiving turkey or getting a lousy perm, right?
> 
> If you cannot understand the trauma of rape, you will never comprehend  the beautiful, the mysterious, the sanctity of the feminine mystique.
> 
> I think the only thing that one could imagine that would be worse than rape would be murder.
> 
> But, on the other hand, perhaps I am just an idiot.
Click to expand...


Another idiot flies into the thread and makes a fool out of himself. Tell you what, Professor, why don't you read the thread and slunk off into the corner of the board you usually inhabit where you don't have to debate intelligent people.


----------



## Noomi

koshergrl said:


> Noomi said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> koshergrl said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not labeling you, I'm describing you. You do deserve it, for the stupid things you say about women and children. From not caring about women being tortured and killed in the middle east, to your callous comments about the unborn, and indeed, your over the top offensive comment about a light sentence for the little girl brutally abused in the other thread....your comments are disgusting and show a complete lack of compassion or regard for life. Even your comments about your DOGS show that you are uncaring and self absorbed. I don't find you repugnant because we have different views..I find you repugnant because you say horrific things. I'm sorry nobody has ever said that to you before. But your comments show a lack of character and a shallowness or absence of soul.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Of course I care about women ho are raped and killed in overseas countries. I am sorry you assume otherwise, but they have nothing to do with this subject, which is why I am getting a bit pissed off.
> My opinion on abortion does not make me a horrible person, I simply have a differing opinion to you.
> 
> The dogs are NOT MINE. They do not belong to me. They simply live in my house.
> 
> I find you to be appalling at times, but I have never, and WOULD NEVER, say you were a horrible person because of it. I hate some of your opinions, but I would never say that I hated you because of those opinions.
> 
> I actually have respect for you, no matter what you think of me. Shame you don't have the same.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I assume otherwise because you sneeringly dismissed them, after it was stupidly stated that nobody had to choose between rape and the lives of loved ones. You asked what they have to do with YOU. Well they have nothing to do with YOU, not everything has something to do with YOU....but that was the example of the situation that it was said didn't exist.
> 
> I'm not a horrible person. I hope you aren't. But the things you write make my blood run cold. I don't know if you're really young and just don't know how you come across or what, but that degree of disdain for the life and well being of others is a serious character flaw that honestly you should address and quick. People sometimes have to make themselves care about other beings, they aren't always hardwired to do it...usually parents will catch this in children and can shape them as they raise them and help them to grow into somewhat empathetic people, eventually. But for some people, for whatever reason it doesn't take root. I don't see any empathy in you. Maybe you're just projecting what you think is a tough persona, or maybe it's just that you aren't able to relate that part of your personality through the written word...I hope so. But people are going to react negatively to it. People don't like to hear/read about how it's okay to allow someone else to be hurt if you think they would suffer less than you would...people don't like to hear that you think a particularly cold and brutal child abuser should just get a slap on the wrist...people don't like to hear someone talking about how they think a dog should be grateful to them....these aren't endearing characteristics.
Click to expand...


I have never once said that a child abuser should get a slap on the wrist. I just think that sometimes the justice system can be a little too harsh, just as it can be way too lenient.
People might not like to hear my opinions, but I have a right to express them. I don't like a lot of opinions here, but you have the right to them and I would never tell you that you were a callous and horrible person because of it.

We just need to respect that we have different views on certain subjects, and that we both see the world differently.

Btw, I am not as young as you might think - I am 29. Dunno how old you are, but I'd guess you are older, simply because you have differing views to mine.


----------



## Noomi

Quantum Windbag said:


> Noomi said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Quantum Windbag said:
> 
> 
> 
> So do punches, what's your point?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You said rape was mostly psychological. I was simply saying that it wasn't. No point was meant by my statement.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Are you saying that, without the physical damage, rape is not a big deal? If not, what the fuck is your point?
Click to expand...


Rape is a bigger deal than a simple bruise, or a papercut. You seem to be making rape into something trivial, when it isn't. You might not think you are, but your posts tell otherwise.


----------



## Noomi

koshergrl said:


> No, that wasn't the argument at all.
> 
> noomi argued that rape was worse than anything that could ever happen to someone else, therefore, in a situation where the choice was between her getting raped, or someone else getting beaten, that other person should accept that their injuries would be less consequential than her own suffering, therefore they should accept the abuse and let her off.



Getting a light slap in the face isn't getting 'beaten' and its not as traumatic as rape.


----------



## Saigon

koshergrl said:


> She obviously has no knowledge of Darfur, where women must leave the confines of their villages to seek water and food for their families, and are subsequently raped...they must make a very conscious choice and rape is a given...and they do it to protect their families..because when men or children leave the villages to seek water and food, they are beaten and/or killed.



Can you post some evidence of this - or did you just make it up?

btw, What knowledge do you have of Darfur? When were you there?


----------



## Saigon

Quantum Windbag said:


> Jimmy_Jam said:
> 
> 
> 
> What counts as worst possible experiences? It doesn't get much more subjective than that. I'm not a woman, so I can't comment on what a woman finds horrible. Men and women aren't exactly wired the same, neither physically nor emotionally. Speaking for myself, I can't imagine too many things much worse than if I were anally raped, but then that's just me. I have to assume there are other men that may think differently.
> 
> I don't really see what that has to do with the matter one way or another.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If a woman is threatened with something, and chooses to be raped, that means she thinks that the alternative is worse than rape. Anyone with an IQ about the freezing point of water would grasp that without explanation. Noomi is the one that made the ridiculous claim the fact that I have spent so much time pointing out the obvious just shows how brain dead the pro abortion crowd is.
Click to expand...


And yet you have presented absolutel no evidence whatsoever that anyone has ever made that choice, have you?


----------



## Noomi

Saigon said:


> koshergrl said:
> 
> 
> 
> She obviously has no knowledge of Darfur, where women must leave the confines of their villages to seek water and food for their families, and are subsequently raped...they must make a very conscious choice and rape is a given...and they do it to protect their families..because when men or children leave the villages to seek water and food, they are beaten and/or killed.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Can you post some evidence of this - or did you just make it up?
> 
> btw, What knowledge do you have of Darfur? When were you there?
Click to expand...


It was probably in the paper, therefore it must be true.

Although I think KG might be right about it, though. I imagine that rape is very common in other countries.


----------



## Saigon

Rape has been used a a form pf punishment in Darfur, I understand, and certainly many people have been killed - what I dispute is that anyone is making the conscious choice to be raped rather than being beaten or having their husbands killed.


----------



## Noomi

Saigon said:


> Rape has been used a a form pf punishment in Darfur, I understand, and certainly many people have been killed - what I dispute is that anyone is making the conscious choice to be raped rather than being beaten or having their husbands killed.



I would say it is likely that one would make that choice, but I would also say that evidence proving it would be required.


----------



## Quantum Windbag

Noomi said:


> Quantum Windbag said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Noomi said:
> 
> 
> 
> You said rape was mostly psychological. I was simply saying that it wasn't. No point was meant by my statement.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Are you saying that, without the physical damage, rape is not a big deal? If not, what the fuck is your point?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Rape is a bigger deal than a simple bruise, or a papercut. You seem to be making rape into something trivial, when it isn't. You might not think you are, but your posts tell otherwise.
Click to expand...


Strange that you keep accusing me of trivializing rape when you are the one that is trivializing every women who did not die in the attempt to resist the worst possible thing that can ever happen to a woman.


----------



## Noomi

Quantum Windbag said:


> Noomi said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Quantum Windbag said:
> 
> 
> 
> Are you saying that, without the physical damage, rape is not a big deal? If not, what the fuck is your point?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Rape is a bigger deal than a simple bruise, or a papercut. You seem to be making rape into something trivial, when it isn't. You might not think you are, but your posts tell otherwise.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Strange that you keep accusing me of trivializing rape when you are the one that is trivializing every women who did not die in the attempt to resist the worst possible thing that can ever happen to a woman.
Click to expand...


What is the worst thing a man could experience?


----------



## Quantum Windbag

Saigon said:


> Quantum Windbag said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jimmy_Jam said:
> 
> 
> 
> What counts as worst possible experiences? It doesn't get much more subjective than that. I'm not a woman, so I can't comment on what a woman finds horrible. Men and women aren't exactly wired the same, neither physically nor emotionally. Speaking for myself, I can't imagine too many things much worse than if I were anally raped, but then that's just me. I have to assume there are other men that may think differently.
> 
> I don't really see what that has to do with the matter one way or another.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If a woman is threatened with something, and chooses to be raped, that means she thinks that the alternative is worse than rape. Anyone with an IQ about the freezing point of water would grasp that without explanation. Noomi is the one that made the ridiculous claim the fact that I have spent so much time pointing out the obvious just shows how brain dead the pro abortion crowd is.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> And yet you have presented absolutel no evidence whatsoever that anyone has ever made that choice, have you?
Click to expand...


I don't usually post stories about rape, but if you go back through this thread you will clearly find that I actually posted an example of a woman that chose rape for herself over the rape and and murder of her children. I think that proves you are wrong, in addition to being an asshole that thinks that women who are raped are guilty.


----------



## Quantum Windbag

Saigon said:


> Rape has been used a a form pf punishment in Darfur, I understand, and certainly many people have been killed - what I dispute is that anyone is making the conscious choice to be raped rather than being beaten or having their husbands killed.



Would you want to bet on it?

Before you stick your idiot foot in your fool mouth I suggest you do a little research.

Rape is a way of life for Darfur's women - CNN.com


----------



## Noomi

Quantum Windbag said:


> Saigon said:
> 
> 
> 
> Rape has been used a a form pf punishment in Darfur, I understand, and certainly many people have been killed - what I dispute is that anyone is making the conscious choice to be raped rather than being beaten or having their husbands killed.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Would you want to bet on it?
> 
> Before you stick your idiot foot in your fool mouth I suggest you do a little research.
> 
> Rape is a way of life for Darfur's women - CNN.com
Click to expand...


That is truly horrible. No one should have to experience that.


----------



## Quantum Windbag

Noomi said:


> Saigon said:
> 
> 
> 
> Rape has been used a a form pf punishment in Darfur, I understand, and certainly many people have been killed - what I dispute is that anyone is making the conscious choice to be raped rather than being beaten or having their husbands killed.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I would say it is likely that one would make that choice, but I would also say that evidence proving it would be required.
Click to expand...


I already proved it to you once asshole, do you really want me to shove your nose into the gritty reality of rape? Would you like to see UN testimony about the genocidal rape practiced in Serbia, Rwanda, and Darfur? Since you obviously refuse to admit you are wrong despite enough evidence to convince a misogynic judge who thinks it is impossible to rape a woman wearing pants you are clearly beyond being an asshole.

You are a selfish narcissistic bitch who thinks the universe revolves around her lady parts. Get a life.


----------



## Quantum Windbag

Noomi said:


> Quantum Windbag said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Noomi said:
> 
> 
> 
> Rape is a bigger deal than a simple bruise, or a papercut. You seem to be making rape into something trivial, when it isn't. You might not think you are, but your posts tell otherwise.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Strange that you keep accusing me of trivializing rape when you are the one that is trivializing every women who did not die in the attempt to resist the worst possible thing that can ever happen to a woman.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> What is the worst thing a man could experience?
Click to expand...


Death, just like a woman.


----------



## Saigon

QW - 

Your entire "case" seems to rest on the concept that women choose to be raped. 

And yet I have seen no evidence presented that any human being on earth has ever made that choice - far less that it is somehow commonplace.


----------



## Saigon

Quantum Windbag said:


> Saigon said:
> 
> 
> 
> Rape has been used a a form pf punishment in Darfur, I understand, and certainly many people have been killed - what I dispute is that anyone is making the conscious choice to be raped rather than being beaten or having their husbands killed.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Would you want to bet on it?
> 
> Before you stick your idiot foot in your fool mouth I suggest you do a little research.
> 
> Rape is a way of life for Darfur's women - CNN.com
Click to expand...


And what does that have to do with choosing to be raped?

I don't see anyone disputing that women are raped every day - the dispute centres around your insistence that many choose to be raped rather than face something worse.


----------



## Noomi

Quantum Windbag said:


> Noomi said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Quantum Windbag said:
> 
> 
> 
> Strange that you keep accusing me of trivializing rape when you are the one that is trivializing every women who did not die in the attempt to resist the worst possible thing that can ever happen to a woman.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What is the worst thing a man could experience?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Death, just like a woman.
Click to expand...


The worst thing a man could experience and survive, is what I meant. Something you would experience personally, to yourself.


----------



## Noomi

Quantum Windbag said:


> Noomi said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Saigon said:
> 
> 
> 
> Rape has been used a a form pf punishment in Darfur, I understand, and certainly many people have been killed - what I dispute is that anyone is making the conscious choice to be raped rather than being beaten or having their husbands killed.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I would say it is likely that one would make that choice, but I would also say that evidence proving it would be required.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I already proved it to you once asshole, do you really want me to shove your nose into the gritty reality of rape? Would you like to see UN testimony about the genocidal rape practiced in Serbia, Rwanda, and Darfur? Since you obviously refuse to admit you are wrong despite enough evidence to convince a misogynic judge who thinks it is impossible to rape a woman wearing pants you are clearly beyond being an asshole.
> 
> You are a selfish narcissistic bitch who thinks the universe revolves around her lady parts. Get a life.
Click to expand...


I cannot respond to you anymore. I refuse to debate with someone who hurls insults at someone who shares a different opinion.


----------



## Quantum Windbag

Saigon said:


> QW -
> 
> Your entire "case" seems to rest on the concept that women choose to be raped.
> 
> And yet I have seen no evidence presented that any human being on earth has ever made that choice - far less that it is somehow commonplace.



Your entire case is built on deliberately misinterpreting what I have said. That is not surprising, you have consistently demonstrated a complete lack of debating skills and have no concept of logic at all other than a rudimentary grasp of fallacies that you spout whenever you get confused.

For the record, women do not chose to be raped. They do, however, prefer rape to death, dismemberment, or any of numerous alternatives that they are faced with when someone attacks them. This proves to any thinking person that there are a lot of things that are worse than rape. 

Anyone who says anything else is insulting every woman who was ever raped, and that gives me license to treat you all like scum.


----------



## Quantum Windbag

Saigon said:


> Quantum Windbag said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Saigon said:
> 
> 
> 
> Rape has been used a a form pf punishment in Darfur, I understand, and certainly many people have been killed - what I dispute is that anyone is making the conscious choice to be raped rather than being beaten or having their husbands killed.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Would you want to bet on it?
> 
> Before you stick your idiot foot in your fool mouth I suggest you do a little research.
> 
> Rape is a way of life for Darfur's women - CNN.com
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> And what does that have to do with choosing to be raped?
> 
> I don't see anyone disputing that women are raped every day - the dispute centres around your insistence that many choose to be raped rather than face something worse.
Click to expand...


What does choosing to be raped have to do with anything I said?

Do you, or do you not, want to take the bet I offered?


----------



## Quantum Windbag

Noomi said:


> Quantum Windbag said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Noomi said:
> 
> 
> 
> What is the worst thing a man could experience?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Death, just like a woman.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The worst thing a man could experience and survive, is what I meant. Something you would experience personally, to yourself.
Click to expand...


That would vary from man to man, just like it does with women. The difference between me and you is I actually understand that.


----------



## Noomi

Quantum Windbag said:


> Noomi said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Quantum Windbag said:
> 
> 
> 
> Death, just like a woman.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The worst thing a man could experience and survive, is what I meant. Something you would experience personally, to yourself.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> That would vary from man to man, just like it does with women. The difference between me and you is I actually understand that.
Click to expand...


The worst thing that I could experience, and survive, in my opinion, is rape. Yet for some reason you think I am an idiot for saying that.


----------



## Quantum Windbag

Noomi said:


> Quantum Windbag said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Noomi said:
> 
> 
> 
> I would say it is likely that one would make that choice, but I would also say that evidence proving it would be required.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I already proved it to you once asshole, do you really want me to shove your nose into the gritty reality of rape? Would you like to see UN testimony about the genocidal rape practiced in Serbia, Rwanda, and Darfur? Since you obviously refuse to admit you are wrong despite enough evidence to convince a misogynic judge who thinks it is impossible to rape a woman wearing pants you are clearly beyond being an asshole.
> 
> You are a selfish narcissistic bitch who thinks the universe revolves around her lady parts. Get a life.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I cannot respond to you anymore. I refuse to debate with someone who hurls insults at someone who shares a different opinion.
Click to expand...


You are entitled to your opinions, you are not entitled to your own facts. You repeatedly ignore facts, when a woman is being raped she has to chose how to respond to the attack, should she fight or submit. Your moronic insistence that this does not happen is so stupid that the only rational response is to insult the person who says it.


----------



## Saigon

Quantum Windbag said:


> What does choosing to be raped have to do with anything I said?
> 
> Do you, or do you not, want to take the bet I offered?



Here it is:



> If a woman is threatened with something, and *chooses to be raped, *that means she thinks that the alternative is worse than rape. Anyone with an IQ about the freezing point of water would grasp that without explanation. Noomi is the one that made the ridiculous claim the fact that I have spent so much time pointing out the obvious just shows how brain dead the pro abortion crowd is.


----------



## Saigon

> For the record, women do not chose to be raped. They do, however, prefer rape to death, dismemberment, or any of numerous alternatives that they are faced with when someone attacks them.



And yet you have presented no evidence of this.

Please do so.


----------



## Quantum Windbag

Noomi said:


> Quantum Windbag said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Noomi said:
> 
> 
> 
> The worst thing a man could experience and survive, is what I meant. Something you would experience personally, to yourself.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That would vary from man to man, just like it does with women. The difference between me and you is I actually understand that.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The worst thing that I could experience, and survive, in my opinion, is rape. Yet for some reason you think I am an idiot for saying that.
Click to expand...


Because you are being an idiot, or you are lying. If someone held a gun to your best friends head and told you he would blow her brains out unless you let him rape you you would let him rape you.


----------



## Quantum Windbag

Saigon said:


> Quantum Windbag said:
> 
> 
> 
> What does choosing to be raped have to do with anything I said?
> 
> Do you, or do you not, want to take the bet I offered?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here it is:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If a woman is threatened with something, and *chooses to be raped, *that means she thinks that the alternative is worse than rape. Anyone with an IQ about the freezing point of water would grasp that without explanation. Noomi is the one that made the ridiculous claim the fact that I have spent so much time pointing out the obvious just shows how brain dead the pro abortion crowd is.
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


Thanks for proving my point that you are incapable of debating. Tell me something, are the authors of _Sexual Homicide: Patterns and Motives _saying women choose to be raped when they lay out the 10 steps a woman should take when faced with a rapist?

Pay close attention to number 9.




> Avoidance is ideal. And Escape is best, if you can pull it off.
> Call for help if there's anyone who will hear.
> Try conversation first. Try to make yourself a whole person to the attacker.
> Negotiate if you can.
> If your actions seem to be increasing the level of aggression, change direction.
> Make sure the attacker is aware you don't want this.
> Don't insult or threaten the attacker.
> Don't say you have AIDS, are pregnant, are in your menstrual cycle, etc.
> Combat and acquiescence are last resorts - which may become necessary.
> Know that there may be no good solution to this problem. Anything that decreases the damage level is the goal.



Sexual Homicide: Patterns and Motives- Paperback - John E. Douglas, Ann W. Burgess, Robert K. Ressler - Google Books

_Sexual Homicide: Patterns and Motives __Simon and Schuster/Free Press, © 1988, Ressler, Burgess, Douglas_

Damn, look at that, women have to chose between fighting and rape knowing that there is no solution, and they advise them to remember that the goal is to reduce the damage.

Feel free to find any expert that advises women it is better to die than get raped.


----------



## Saigon

QW - 

I am still not seeing any evidence of women who have chosen to be raped rather than face something worse. 

Aside from death, I really don't know what you mean, and in 13 page of this thread I see no evidence of situations where this has occured. 



> Feel free to find any expert that advises women it is better to die than get raped.



I don't think death is a terribly viable option for many people, is it?


----------



## Quantum Windbag

Saigon said:


> QW -
> 
> I am still not seeing any evidence of women who have chosen to be raped rather than face something worse.



That would take you being able to see something other than your own ego, wouldn't it?



Saigon said:


> Aside from death, I really don't know what you mean, and in 13 page of this thread I see no evidence of situations where this has occured.



Go back and reread all my posts, it is there.



Saigon said:


> I don't think death is a terribly viable option for many people, is it?



You aren't the only one.


----------



## Saigon

QW - 

Asking for the 4th time now - leaving death aside, do you have ANY evidence at all of women choosing rape rather than experiencing something worse?


----------



## koshergrl

Saigon said:


> For the record, women do not chose to be raped. They do, however, prefer rape to death, dismemberment, or any of numerous alternatives that they are faced with when someone attacks them.
> 
> 
> 
> And yet you have presented no evidence of this.
> 
> Please do so.
Click to expand...


Do you have organic brain damage?


----------



## Saigon

Kosher - 



koshergrl said:


> She obviously has no knowledge of Darfur, where women must leave the confines of their villages to seek water and food for their families, and are subsequently raped...they must make a very conscious choice and rape is a given...and they do it to protect their families..because when men or children leave the villages to seek water and food, they are beaten and/or killed.



Still waiting for evidence to back up this claim.

I'm also interested in your knowledge of Darfur, given you seem to imply here that you have some expertise in this area.


----------



## koshergrl

I don't have particular "expertise". But I do read, and occasionally watch the  news.

You have never heard of Darfur I take it?


----------



## koshergrl

"
   Some relief workers say that almost every woman living in aid  camps has been raped or become a victim of gender-based violence. Many  teenagers, while out running errands such as collecting firewood, are  raped multiple times by militiamen, the workers say. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			



Watch women face dangers in Darfur »
  They say the situation has now become so bad that many women are now  resigned to rape as a way of life and men are unwilling to accompany  them because they fear that they will be killed if they try to defend  them."


Rape is a way of life for Darfur's women - CNN.com


----------



## Stephanie

Noomi said:


> luddly.neddite said:
> 
> 
> 
> Rick Berg, North Dakota GOP Senate Candidate: No Abortion Access For Rape Victims
> 
> He must plan on raising the unwanted fetus. I mean, surely he would not demand the power to control women's lives unless he also planned to take responsibility for his power over them.
> 
> He probably also believes in slavery - ultimate control over people's lives.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Republicans have more compassion for a clump of cells than for a traumatised woman who has been through the worst thing any woman could ever experience.
Click to expand...


wow,
a Clump of cells, I guess you need to call them that so you don't feel the mental anguish of aborting your child

what a sick society we have become


----------



## Katzndogz

People are free to believe that rape is just the worst thing that could ever happen to them.   They would be silly, but they can think that.   It's on the same level of saying "I'd rather die then go out in public with a bad haircut".

If you really want to know what the absolute worst event that could befall the inarguably majority of women, ask Jessica Ridgeway's mother.   The death of their child isn't the worst thing that could happen to all women, and there are certainly some who find the death of their child no big deal.   If given a choice between being raped and their child found in pieces, they would still find being raped just the worst thing that could ever happen to them.   It's just not the view of most women.


----------



## Saigon

koshergrl said:


> I don't have particular "expertise". But I do read, and occasionally watch the  news.
> 
> You have never heard of Darfur I take it?



I haven't been to Darfur, but I have been to most of the neighbouring countries; Ethiopia, Uganda and Egypt. I might go so South Sudan in 2014. I certainly wouldn't claim to be an expert, but I generally follow African stories reasonably well.

I guess you don't have any evidence of women in the area choosing rape, then?

I am surprised.


----------



## Katzndogz

Saigon said:


> koshergrl said:
> 
> 
> 
> I don't have particular "expertise". But I do read, and occasionally watch the  news.
> 
> You have never heard of Darfur I take it?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I haven't been to Darfur, but I have been to most of the neighbouring countries; Ethiopia, Uganda and Egypt. I might go so South Sudan in 2014. I certainly wouldn't claim to be an expert, but I generally follow African stories reasonably well.
> 
> I guess you don't have any evidence of women in the area choosing rape, then?
> 
> I am surprised.
Click to expand...


They are denied any other "choice" which makes it not a choice at all.

Rape is a way of life for Darfur's women - CNN.com

Some relief workers say that almost every woman living in aid camps has been raped or become a victim of gender-based violence. Many teenagers, while out running errands such as collecting firewood, are raped multiple times by militiamen, the workers say.  Watch women face dangers in Darfur »

They say the situation has now become so bad that many women are now resigned to rape as a way of life and men are unwilling to accompany them because they fear that they will be killed if they try to defend them.

These women don't choose rape as an alternative to exposing others to being killed.   Rape is the default because no one will protect them.


----------



## koshergrl

Katzndogz said:


> People are free to believe that rape is just the worst thing that could ever happen to them.   They would be silly, but they can think that.   It's on the same level of saying "I'd rather die then go out in public with a bad haircut".
> 
> If you really want to know what the absolute worst event that could befall the inarguably majority of women, ask Jessica Ridgeway's mother.   The death of their child isn't the worst thing that could happen to all women, and there are certainly some who find the death of their child no big deal.   If given a choice between being raped and their child found in pieces, they would still find being raped just the worst thing that could ever happen to them.   It's just not the view of most women.



The same people who say that rape is the worst thing that could ever happen to anyone deny that children have any value. See the reference above to "raising an unwanted fetus". They view murder as a matter of convenience, and in fact a wonderful release for those people they don't assign value to.


----------



## Katzndogz

koshergrl said:


> Katzndogz said:
> 
> 
> 
> People are free to believe that rape is just the worst thing that could ever happen to them.   They would be silly, but they can think that.   It's on the same level of saying "I'd rather die then go out in public with a bad haircut".
> 
> If you really want to know what the absolute worst event that could befall the inarguably majority of women, ask Jessica Ridgeway's mother.   The death of their child isn't the worst thing that could happen to all women, and there are certainly some who find the death of their child no big deal.   If given a choice between being raped and their child found in pieces, they would still find being raped just the worst thing that could ever happen to them.   It's just not the view of most women.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The same people who say that rape is the worst thing that could ever happen to anyone deny that children have any value. See the reference above to "raising an unwanted fetus". They view murder as a matter of convenience, and in fact a wonderful release for those people they don't assign value to.
Click to expand...


More than children have no value, human beings that are not them, have no value.  Rape is the worst thing that could happen (to me).   In Darfur as you can easily see, rape isn't as bad as being cold, or they wouldn't take the risk of gathering firewood.   It isn't as bad as being thirsty, or they wouldn't take the risk of getting water.  But, if you personally have no need of either firewood or water, then rape is just the worst thing in the world.   Turn up the thermostat and open the faucet.


----------



## koshergrl

Bingo.


----------



## Saigon

> In Darfur as you can easily see, rape isn't as bad as being cold, or they wouldn't take the risk of gathering firewood.



I'm not going to say a word.


----------



## koshergrl

Saigon said:


> In Darfur as you can easily see, rape isn't as bad as being cold, or they wouldn't take the risk of gathering firewood.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not going to say a word.
Click to expand...


That's probably for the best.


----------



## Katzndogz

For the most part, in this country, there are very few rapes that result in pregnancy.   Far and away, the majority of pregnancies are the result of carelessness and thoughtlessness.     Rape is a justification for a lack of responsibility.   

I've counseled very young single mothers from 12 to 18.   They never made a connection between their behavior and the pregnancy.   It was something unfairly done TO them.  They were like trees in the forest.  If it rained, they got wet, if a squirrel climbed up their trunk there's nothing they could do about it.   These girls could not be convinced that they had the power to decline sex.  It was something they did and for a variety of reasons having nothing to do with being so overcome by desire they were powerless.   They were bored, they wanted to feel loved, they wanted to keep the guy from getting another girlfriend, they thought the guy would take them to the next party and show up all the other girls.  Mostly their reasons were childish.  Not surprising because these are children.   

Teaching girls and women that they can say no once in a while will do more to end unwanted pregnancies than all the birth control in the world.


----------



## Rinata

koshergrl said:


> Again, that scenario is the one that was put out there by noomi, not QW.



Do you think I am going to believe anything you say after you changed one of my posts???


----------



## Rinata

Quantum Windbag said:


> Rinata said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Quantum Windbag said:
> 
> 
> 
> You can think whatever the fuck you want. If you chose to think that rape is the worst possible experience it is possible for a woman to undergo I will call you an idiot. I provided plenty of examples of worst experiences to make my point, and can provide more if you want to desire to be even more idiotic than Noomi.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What an absolute jerk you are. Those are what YOU consider the worst experiences any woman can have. But you cannot force it on other people. Throw as many tantrums as you want. You're WRONG!!!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> That's just it, I don't consider them the worst, I consider dying the worst, anything short of being dead is a plus.
> 
> By the way, I am not forcing anything on anyone, nor am I throwing a tantrum. There are millions of women throughout history who, when faced with the prospect of rape, have chosen that over myriads of alternatives. That proves that they made the decision that rape was not nearly as devastating as the alternatives they faced. Every time you insist that you are correct in your claim that rape is worse than anything else that could possibly happen you insult those women.
> 
> That makes you the asshole in this conversation, it also makes you wrong. I would use caps to drive that point home, but I am saddened, not angry, by how pathetic you are.
Click to expand...


Are you simple minded or something??? I didn't say rape was the worst thing that can happen to a women. I am saying that it is up to each individual to decide what would be the worst experience they could have. You have no right to tell anybdy how to think!!! Or to criticize their choice. Damn!!! Do you get it now???


----------



## koshergrl

Tell that to Noomi who maintains that rape is the absolute worst thing that could ever happen to anyone...


----------



## Quantum Windbag

Saigon said:


> QW -
> 
> Asking for the 4th time now - leaving death aside, do you have ANY evidence at all of women choosing rape rather than experiencing something worse?



Objection.

Asked and answered.


----------



## Quantum Windbag

Rinata said:


> Quantum Windbag said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Rinata said:
> 
> 
> 
> What an absolute jerk you are. Those are what YOU consider the worst experiences any woman can have. But you cannot force it on other people. Throw as many tantrums as you want. You're WRONG!!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That's just it, I don't consider them the worst, I consider dying the worst, anything short of being dead is a plus.
> 
> By the way, I am not forcing anything on anyone, nor am I throwing a tantrum. There are millions of women throughout history who, when faced with the prospect of rape, have chosen that over myriads of alternatives. That proves that they made the decision that rape was not nearly as devastating as the alternatives they faced. Every time you insist that you are correct in your claim that rape is worse than anything else that could possibly happen you insult those women.
> 
> That makes you the asshole in this conversation, it also makes you wrong. I would use caps to drive that point home, but I am saddened, not angry, by how pathetic you are.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Are you simple minded or something??? I didn't say rape was the worst thing that can happen to a women. I am saying that it is up to each individual to decide what would be the worst experience they could have. You have no right to tell anybdy how to think!!! Or to criticize their choice. Damn!!! Do you get it now???
Click to expand...


I can't criticize their choice? Since when? Why do you get to criticize my choices if I can't criticize other people's, do you have a special license to criticize people's choices?


----------



## Noomi

Quantum Windbag said:


> Noomi said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Quantum Windbag said:
> 
> 
> 
> That would vary from man to man, just like it does with women. The difference between me and you is I actually understand that.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The worst thing that I could experience, and survive, in my opinion, is rape. Yet for some reason you think I am an idiot for saying that.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Because you are being an idiot, or you are lying. If someone held a gun to your best friends head and told you he would blow her brains out unless you let him rape you you would let him rape you.
Click to expand...


I would protect myself and my friend. I would rather die too than allow a man to rape me.


----------



## Noomi

koshergrl said:


> Tell that to Noomi who maintains that rape is the absolute worst thing that could ever happen to anyone...



That is my opinion. I am sorry that you think being raped is a walk in the park.


----------



## Marhaba

Abortion might be the decisive issue that will tilt the election.


----------



## Noomi

Stephanie said:


> Noomi said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> luddly.neddite said:
> 
> 
> 
> Rick Berg, North Dakota GOP Senate Candidate: No Abortion Access For Rape Victims
> 
> He must plan on raising the unwanted fetus. I mean, surely he would not demand the power to control women's lives unless he also planned to take responsibility for his power over them.
> 
> He probably also believes in slavery - ultimate control over people's lives.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Republicans have more compassion for a clump of cells than for a traumatised woman who has been through the worst thing any woman could ever experience.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> wow,
> a Clump of cells, I guess you need to call them that so you don't feel the mental anguish of aborting your child
> 
> what a sick society we have become
Click to expand...


I am sorry if I think the woman's rights are far more important than a fucking embryo conceived from rape. Because she is.


----------



## Noomi

Marhaba said:


> Abortion might be the decisive issue that will tilt the election.



There are more important issues to an election than abortion, but sadly, that is what the conservatives love to concern themselves with.
Screw the economy, lets ban abortion!


----------



## Quantum Windbag

Noomi said:


> Quantum Windbag said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Noomi said:
> 
> 
> 
> The worst thing that I could experience, and survive, in my opinion, is rape. Yet for some reason you think I am an idiot for saying that.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Because you are being an idiot, or you are lying. If someone held a gun to your best friends head and told you he would blow her brains out unless you let him rape you you would let him rape you.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I would protect myself and my friend. I would rather die too than allow a man to rape me.
Click to expand...


Liar.


----------



## Quantum Windbag

Noomi said:


> koshergrl said:
> 
> 
> 
> Tell that to Noomi who maintains that rape is the absolute worst thing that could ever happen to anyone...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That is my opinion. I am sorry that you think being raped is a walk in the park.
Click to expand...


Compared to dying, almost anything is a walk in the park.


----------



## Quantum Windbag

Marhaba said:


> Abortion might be the decisive issue that will tilt the election.



If it is, Obama will lose.


----------



## Quantum Windbag

Noomi said:


> Marhaba said:
> 
> 
> 
> Abortion might be the decisive issue that will tilt the election.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There are more important issues to an election than abortion, but sadly, that is what the conservatives love to concern themselves with.
> Screw the economy, lets ban abortion!
Click to expand...


Funny, it was the Democrats that turned their convention into 3 days of blathering about abortion, yet you think the Republicans are the ones that are obsessed with it.


----------



## Rinata

Quantum Windbag said:


> Rinata said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Quantum Windbag said:
> 
> 
> 
> That's just it, I don't consider them the worst, I consider dying the worst, anything short of being dead is a plus.
> 
> By the way, I am not forcing anything on anyone, nor am I throwing a tantrum. There are millions of women throughout history who, when faced with the prospect of rape, have chosen that over myriads of alternatives. That proves that they made the decision that rape was not nearly as devastating as the alternatives they faced. Every time you insist that you are correct in your claim that rape is worse than anything else that could possibly happen you insult those women.
> 
> That makes you the asshole in this conversation, it also makes you wrong. I would use caps to drive that point home, but I am saddened, not angry, by how pathetic you are.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Are you simple minded or something??? I didn't say rape was the worst thing that can happen to a women. I am saying that it is up to each individual to decide what would be the worst experience they could have. You have no right to tell anybdy how to think!!! Or to criticize their choice. Damn!!! Do you get it now???
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I can't criticize their choice? Since when? Why do you get to criticize my choices if I can't criticize other people's, do you have a special license to criticize people's choices?
Click to expand...


You just don't get it. I am not criticizing anybody for their choice. I am saying that we must choose only for ourselves. We cannot choose for other people because we cannot tell other people what to feel or think. Damn!!! You have a hard, hard, head. And you call me pathetic???


----------



## Katzndogz

We choose for other people all the time.    We choose their means of happiness.  We choose their means of making a living.  The government is increasingly taking a role in choosing what people eat.


----------



## Againsheila

Noomi said:


> Quantum Windbag said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Noomi said:
> 
> 
> 
> The worst thing that I could experience, and survive, in my opinion, is rape. Yet for some reason you think I am an idiot for saying that.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Because you are being an idiot, or you are lying. If someone held a gun to your best friends head and told you he would blow her brains out unless you let him rape you you would let him rape you.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I would protect myself and my friend. I would rather die too than allow a man to rape me.
Click to expand...


There was a time I believed that too, now I just figure I'll wait for my moment and kill him.


----------



## TruthSeeker56

luddly.neddite said:


> Rick Berg, North Dakota GOP Senate Candidate: No Abortion Access For Rape Victims
> 
> He must plan on raising the unwanted fetus. I mean, surely he would not demand the power to control women's lives unless he also planned to take responsibility for his power over them.
> 
> He probably also believes in slavery - ultimate control over people's lives.



Why should the TAXPAYERS pay for abortions for ANYBODY? 

If a female wants to have an abortion, PAY FOR IT YOURSELF!

So tell us, luddly, how many RAPE victims per year, in the United States, become impregnated? Show us the statistics!

Why can't you leftists get it through your thick skulls that TAXPAYERS should not be burdened with the problems of people who can't afford, and/or are unwilling to take care of their own problems?

There are charities out there. There are many groups and volunteers out there who have the means to help out people. 

Keep the GOVERNMENT out of our lives, except for the most basic of services, and this country would do MUCH BETTER!


----------



## Katzndogz

There isn't any reason why rape victims couldn't get paid abortions under the Victims of Violent Crime Act.   Of course this means there would have to be a rape and a rapist, not a randy boyfriend.


----------



## theHawk

luddly.neddite said:


> Rick Berg, North Dakota GOP Senate Candidate: No Abortion Access For Rape Victims
> 
> He must plan on raising the unwanted fetus. I mean, surely he would not demand the power to control women's lives unless he also planned to take responsibility for his power over them.
> 
> He probably also believes in slavery - ultimate control over people's lives.



Who cares?

Why do you libs act as if when we get a Repub President you're going to lose your right to kill your unborn?  We've had plenty of Repub Presidents and Congress since Roe v Wade and not much as changed.

Best that will ever happen is no abortion on demand and only legal in cases of rape or life of the mother.


----------



## koshergrl

Omg! It's too heinous to contemplate!


----------



## Quantum Windbag

Rinata said:


> Quantum Windbag said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Rinata said:
> 
> 
> 
> Are you simple minded or something??? I didn't say rape was the worst thing that can happen to a women. I am saying that it is up to each individual to decide what would be the worst experience they could have. You have no right to tell anybdy how to think!!! Or to criticize their choice. Damn!!! Do you get it now???
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I can't criticize their choice? Since when? Why do you get to criticize my choices if I can't criticize other people's, do you have a special license to criticize people's choices?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You just don't get it. I am not criticizing anybody for their choice. I am saying that we must choose only for ourselves. We cannot choose for other people because we cannot tell other people what to feel or think. Damn!!! You have a hard, hard, head. And you call me pathetic???
Click to expand...


We can't make choices for others? Does that mean you object to the government requiring all employers to provide their employees with insurance that covers contraception, even if they object? Or does your abhorrence to making choices for others apply only to people you disagree with?


----------



## Quantum Windbag

Againsheila said:


> Noomi said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Quantum Windbag said:
> 
> 
> 
> Because you are being an idiot, or you are lying. If someone held a gun to your best friends head and told you he would blow her brains out unless you let him rape you you would let him rape you.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I would protect myself and my friend. I would rather die too than allow a man to rape me.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> There was a time I believed that too, now I just figure I'll wait for my moment and kill him.
Click to expand...


I think it is a sign of intelligence to kill a rapist instead of insisting that all rape victims deserve the death penalty.


----------



## C_Clayton_Jones

TruthSeeker56 said:


> luddly.neddite said:
> 
> 
> 
> Rick Berg, North Dakota GOP Senate Candidate: No Abortion Access For Rape Victims
> 
> He must plan on raising the unwanted fetus. I mean, surely he would not demand the power to control women's lives unless he also planned to take responsibility for his power over them.
> 
> He probably also believes in slavery - ultimate control over people's lives.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Why should the TAXPAYERS pay for abortions for ANYBODY?
> 
> If a female wants to have an abortion, PAY FOR IT YOURSELF!
> 
> So tell us, luddly, how many RAPE victims per year, in the United States, become impregnated? Show us the statistics!
> 
> Why can't you leftists get it through your thick skulls that TAXPAYERS should not be burdened with the problems of people who can't afford, and/or are unwilling to take care of their own problems?
> 
> There are charities out there. There are many groups and volunteers out there who have the means to help out people.
> 
> *Keep the GOVERNMENT out of our lives,* except for the most basic of services, and this country would do MUCH BETTER!
Click to expand...


You first. 

Otherwise, your post is moot, Federal funding for abortions has been prohibited since the 70s, except in cases of rape, incest, and threat to the mothers life, which is perfectly appropriate.


----------



## koshergrl

If one would rather die than suffer rape they are perfectly free to do that.

The problem is assuming it's better for someone else to suffer than for you to be raped.

Maybe I'd *rather* die than be raped, but I sure as shit won't choose death if I can take rape and keep my kids alive because of it.

Maybe death is preferable for me, personally...but I won't choose it if by choosing it I doom my children.

Likewise, I'm not going to require that somebody else be punished because I find rape objectionable.


----------



## jillian

TruthSeeker56 said:


> luddly.neddite said:
> 
> 
> 
> Rick Berg, North Dakota GOP Senate Candidate: No Abortion Access For Rape Victims
> 
> He must plan on raising the unwanted fetus. I mean, surely he would not demand the power to control women's lives unless he also planned to take responsibility for his power over them.
> 
> He probably also believes in slavery - ultimate control over people's lives.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Why should the TAXPAYERS pay for abortions for ANYBODY?
> 
> If a female wants to have an abortion, PAY FOR IT YOURSELF!
> 
> So tell us, luddly, how many RAPE victims per year, in the United States, become impregnated? Show us the statistics!
> 
> Why can't you leftists get it through your thick skulls that TAXPAYERS should not be burdened with the problems of people who can't afford, and/or are unwilling to take care of their own problems?
> 
> There are charities out there. There are many groups and volunteers out there who have the means to help out people.
> 
> Keep the GOVERNMENT out of our lives, except for the most basic of services, and this country would do MUCH BETTER!
Click to expand...


what utter nonsense.... first of all, you don't want government out of our lives... you want government to monitor all pregnancies.

and the utter insanity of wanting that depth of government involvement in our lives... but not wanting government to do the things it needs to do and was meant to do... is just incomprehensible.


----------



## koshergrl

Nobody wants the government to monitor "all" pregnancies.

We just want women to know what stage their baby is before they have their uteruses scraped. After all, we have laws that dictate how far along they can be, and many women have died after having abortions that were for babies that were MUCH further along that initially supposed.

You'd think you'd be for insisting upon measures that protect women's health and make sure she gets the most up to date medical care possible...including pinpointing the development stage of her baby so the abortionist doesn't go digging around and (horror!) find out the baby isn't 8 weeks AFTER all, it's really 30 weeks. After all, isn't all this about women's health? 

(Never mind, I know what it's about. It's about making it impossible to find out exactly what PP REALLY does, and the real ages of the babies they kill).


----------



## Noomi

Quantum Windbag said:


> Noomi said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> koshergrl said:
> 
> 
> 
> Tell that to Noomi who maintains that rape is the absolute worst thing that could ever happen to anyone...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That is my opinion. I am sorry that you think being raped is a walk in the park.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Compared to dying, almost anything is a walk in the park.
Click to expand...


Again, I would rather die than allow someone to rape me. If a man did indeed rape me, I would kill him.

Don't dispute me on this one.


----------



## Quantum Windbag

Noomi said:


> Quantum Windbag said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Noomi said:
> 
> 
> 
> That is my opinion. I am sorry that you think being raped is a walk in the park.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Compared to dying, almost anything is a walk in the park.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Again, I would rather die than allow someone to rape me. If a man did indeed rape me, I would kill him.
> 
> Don't dispute me on this one.
Click to expand...


You are certainly free to try to kill anyone you want. My guess is that you would end up in prison, but go ahead.


----------



## koshergrl

You do realize that if you kill some guy in the future, and you claim he raped you, that your comment here shows INTENT TO KILL and you won't get off on self defense?

It's super idiotic to spout off about who you would kill if given a chance.


----------



## sfcalifornia

TruthSeeker56 said:


> luddly.neddite said:
> 
> 
> 
> Rick Berg, North Dakota GOP Senate Candidate: No Abortion Access For Rape Victims
> 
> He must plan on raising the unwanted fetus. I mean, surely he would not demand the power to control women's lives unless he also planned to take responsibility for his power over them.
> 
> He probably also believes in slavery - ultimate control over people's lives.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Why should the TAXPAYERS pay for abortions for ANYBODY?
> 
> If a female wants to have an abortion, PAY FOR IT YOURSELF!
> 
> *So tell us, luddly, how many RAPE victims per year, in the United States, become impregnated? Show us the statistics!*
> 
> Why can't you leftists get it through your thick skulls that TAXPAYERS should not be burdened with the problems of people who can't afford, and/or are unwilling to take care of their own problems?
> 
> There are charities out there. There are many groups and volunteers out there who have the means to help out people.
> 
> Keep the GOVERNMENT out of our lives, except for the most basic of services, and this country would do MUCH BETTER!
Click to expand...


Here you go:

The Rape, Abuse & Incest National Network (RAINN) reports someone in the United States is sexually assaulted every two minutes, and on average there are 207,754 victims (age 12 or older) of sexual assault every year.

How many become pregnant?  A 1996 study in the American Journal of Obstetrics and Gynecology reported that among adult women an estimated *32,101 pregnancies result from rape each year.*  This study said the rate of becoming pregnant after sexual assault is considerable, estimating that the national rape-pregnancy rate is 5.0 percent per rape among victims of reproductive age (aged 12 to 45).

In response to Akins comments, the American Congress of Obstetricians and Gynecologists (ACOG) released a statement on Monday: Each year in the U.S., 10,000-15,000 abortions occur among women whose pregnancies are a result of reported rape or incest.
Todd Akin Challenged by Doctors on Rape and Pregnancy - ABC News


----------



## sfcalifornia

Quantum Windbag said:


> Noomi said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Quantum Windbag said:
> 
> 
> 
> Compared to dying, almost anything is a walk in the park.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Again, I would rather die than allow someone to rape me. If a man did indeed rape me, I would kill him.
> 
> Don't dispute me on this one.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You are certainly free to try to kill anyone you want. My guess is that you would end up in prison, but go ahead.
Click to expand...


No, you aren't "free" to kill anyone you want, there are laws against that.  But there are exceptions to that law and killing in self-defense is one of them.  If you decide to kill someone after the fact though, then that is a different matter.


----------



## Noomi

Quantum Windbag said:


> Noomi said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Quantum Windbag said:
> 
> 
> 
> Compared to dying, almost anything is a walk in the park.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Again, I would rather die than allow someone to rape me. If a man did indeed rape me, I would kill him.
> 
> Don't dispute me on this one.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You are certainly free to try to kill anyone you want. My guess is that you would end up in prison, but go ahead.
Click to expand...


Am I not entitled to act in self defense?


----------



## Noomi

koshergrl said:


> You do realize that if you kill some guy in the future, and you claim he raped you, that your comment here shows INTENT TO KILL and you won't get off on self defense?
> 
> It's super idiotic to spout off about who you would kill if given a chance.



I disagree. There is nothing wrong with stating that if a man attempted to rape you, you would fight to the death. Which I would.


----------



## koshergrl

Fighting to the death isn't the same as saying 'if someone raped me I would kill him'. Trust me, it's premeditation.

Just sayin.


----------



## koshergrl

Noomi you have to watch "I survived"...there are a lot of episodes, but many of them have to do with women who are attacked and many of those women put a serious hurt on their attackers...and at least a couple of them killed them. 

I'm an "I Survived" junky. That and deadly women, lol.


----------



## Katzndogz

Noomi said:


> Quantum Windbag said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Noomi said:
> 
> 
> 
> That is my opinion. I am sorry that you think being raped is a walk in the park.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Compared to dying, almost anything is a walk in the park.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Again, I would rather die than allow someone to rape me. If a man did indeed rape me, I would kill him.
> 
> Don't dispute me on this one.
Click to expand...


Following your logic.   Women who would rather die than be raped don't need abortion because they'd be dead.


----------



## sfcalifornia

Katzndogz said:


> Noomi said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Quantum Windbag said:
> 
> 
> 
> Compared to dying, almost anything is a walk in the park.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Again, I would rather die than allow someone to rape me. If a man did indeed rape me, I would kill him.
> 
> Don't dispute me on this one.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Following your logic.   Women who would rather die than be raped don't need abortion because they'd be dead.
Click to expand...


Just because some women would rather die than be raped doesn't necessarily mean they do.


----------



## Againsheila

koshergrl said:


> Fighting to the death isn't the same as saying 'if someone raped me I would kill him'. Trust me, it's premeditation.
> 
> Just sayin.



Yep, and there was a woman when I was in highschool that went to jail for killing the two guys who raped her.  I would still kill a man if he raped me.  I like the grandma that shot off the privates of the two guys who raped her granddaughter, then went down to the police station and turned herself in.  That's about what I'd do.  I might go to jail, but the world would would have one less rapist in it.


----------



## koshergrl

I used to think things like that...but now that I'm older with kids dependent on me everything hinges on "how will this affect the kids".

I wouldn't kill anyone at this point in my life. I would in defense of my family of course, and even as self defense if I needed to...but as far as saying "if someone rapes me I'm gonna get him" I won't go that far. I don't want the kids to go through that, wherever it goes in the end, what a nightmare. Not only would they have to deal with t he knowledge that their mom was raped (that would be fun for kids) but they also have to deal with the whole nightmare of a trial, probable arrest, all the other crap that goes with it...nuh uh. If I get raped and not killed and if I don't kill him at the time, I'm not killing anyone. I don't want to go to jail. My kids would go live with their father and anything is preferrable to that.


----------



## Quantum Windbag

sfcalifornia said:


> Quantum Windbag said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Noomi said:
> 
> 
> 
> Again, I would rather die than allow someone to rape me. If a man did indeed rape me, I would kill him.
> 
> Don't dispute me on this one.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You are certainly free to try to kill anyone you want. My guess is that you would end up in prison, but go ahead.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No, you aren't "free" to kill anyone you want, there are laws against that.  But there are exceptions to that law and killing in self-defense is one of them.  If you decide to kill someone after the fact though, then that is a different matter.
Click to expand...


If laws prevented people from doing things no one would ever be murdered.


----------



## Quantum Windbag

Noomi said:


> Quantum Windbag said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Noomi said:
> 
> 
> 
> Again, I would rather die than allow someone to rape me. If a man did indeed rape me, I would kill him.
> 
> Don't dispute me on this one.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You are certainly free to try to kill anyone you want. My guess is that you would end up in prison, but go ahead.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Am I not entitled to act in self defense?
Click to expand...


You said you would kill any man who raped you. Self defense no longer applies once the attack is over.


----------



## sfcalifornia

Quantum Windbag said:


> sfcalifornia said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Quantum Windbag said:
> 
> 
> 
> You are certainly free to try to kill anyone you want. My guess is that you would end up in prison, but go ahead.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No, you aren't "free" to kill anyone you want, there are laws against that.  But there are exceptions to that law and killing in self-defense is one of them.  If you decide to kill someone after the fact though, then that is a different matter.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> If laws prevented people from doing things no one would ever be murdered.
Click to expand...


That still doesn't mean you're free to commit murder.  Freedom to commit murder would mean free from suffering consequences for the act committed.


----------



## Quantum Windbag

sfcalifornia said:


> Quantum Windbag said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sfcalifornia said:
> 
> 
> 
> No, you aren't "free" to kill anyone you want, there are laws against that.  But there are exceptions to that law and killing in self-defense is one of them.  If you decide to kill someone after the fact though, then that is a different matter.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If laws prevented people from doing things no one would ever be murdered.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> That still doesn't mean you're free to commit murder.  Freedom to commit murder would mean free from suffering consequences for the act committed.
Click to expand...


Actually, it does.


----------



## sfcalifornia

Quantum Windbag said:


> sfcalifornia said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Quantum Windbag said:
> 
> 
> 
> If laws prevented people from doing things no one would ever be murdered.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That still doesn't mean you're free to commit murder.  Freedom to commit murder would mean free from suffering consequences for the act committed.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Actually, it does.
Click to expand...


What kind of response is that?  Are you conceding but just want the last word?


----------



## Jimmy_Jam

Quantum Windbag said:


> Jimmy_Jam said:
> 
> 
> 
> What counts as worst possible experiences? It doesn't get much more subjective than that. I'm not a woman, so I can't comment on what a woman finds horrible. Men and women aren't exactly wired the same, neither physically nor emotionally. Speaking for myself, I can't imagine too many things much worse than if I were anally raped, but then that's just me. I have to assume there are other men that may think differently.
> 
> I don't really see what that has to do with the matter one way or another.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If a woman is threatened with something, and chooses to be raped, that means she thinks that the alternative is worse than rape. Anyone with an IQ about the freezing point of water would grasp that without explanation. Noomi is the one that made the ridiculous claim the fact that I have spent so much time pointing out the obvious just shows how brain dead the pro abortion crowd is.
Click to expand...


I'm not pro-abortion. Anyway, so, if a woman is threatened with rape, she CHOOSES to be raped? Wow. So, women who are held down and raped against their will are choosing to be raped? Men in prison who are forced into sodomy are CHOOSING this? Would you mind telling me what the alternatives are?

By the way, were you ever going to show me where in U.S. history abortion has ever been classified as murder? You seemed pretty confident that I didn't know what I was talking about.


----------



## koshergrl

Jimmy_Jam said:


> Quantum Windbag said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jimmy_Jam said:
> 
> 
> 
> What counts as worst possible experiences? It doesn't get much more subjective than that. I'm not a woman, so I can't comment on what a woman finds horrible. Men and women aren't exactly wired the same, neither physically nor emotionally. Speaking for myself, I can't imagine too many things much worse than if I were anally raped, but then that's just me. I have to assume there are other men that may think differently.
> 
> I don't really see what that has to do with the matter one way or another.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If a woman is threatened with something, and chooses to be raped, that means she thinks that the alternative is worse than rape. Anyone with an IQ about the freezing point of water would grasp that without explanation. Noomi is the one that made the ridiculous claim the fact that I have spent so much time pointing out the obvious just shows how brain dead the pro abortion crowd is.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I'm not pro-abortion. Anyway, so, if a woman is threatened with rape, she CHOOSES to be raped?
Click to expand...

 
Uh, no, that's nothing like what anyone has said. The whole conversation has been about the hypothetical situation proposed by noomi that if a woman has a choice between rape and ANY OTHER FATE for herself or someone else, it is only natural that everybody recognize that RAPE is the worst thing that could ever happen..thus if (again, this is noomi's hypothetical) someone threatens to smack around someone if they can't rape noomi, then that person naturally must be sacrificed because noomi's rape must be prevented at all costs.

Then the argument went down the lines of "what about if you're faced with rape or the death/abuse of your child" and "oh gosh that situation doesn't exist" and then various references to the Sudan and Darfur etc.


----------



## Quantum Windbag

sfcalifornia said:


> Quantum Windbag said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sfcalifornia said:
> 
> 
> 
> That still doesn't mean you're free to commit murder.  Freedom to commit murder would mean free from suffering consequences for the act committed.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Actually, it does.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> What kind of response is that?  Are you conceding but just want the last word?
Click to expand...


You argued that consequences mean I am not free, that is absurd.


----------



## Quantum Windbag

Jimmy_Jam said:


> Quantum Windbag said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jimmy_Jam said:
> 
> 
> 
> What counts as worst possible experiences? It doesn't get much more subjective than that. I'm not a woman, so I can't comment on what a woman finds horrible. Men and women aren't exactly wired the same, neither physically nor emotionally. Speaking for myself, I can't imagine too many things much worse than if I were anally raped, but then that's just me. I have to assume there are other men that may think differently.
> 
> I don't really see what that has to do with the matter one way or another.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If a woman is threatened with something, and chooses to be raped, that means she thinks that the alternative is worse than rape. Anyone with an IQ about the freezing point of water would grasp that without explanation. Noomi is the one that made the ridiculous claim the fact that I have spent so much time pointing out the obvious just shows how brain dead the pro abortion crowd is.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I'm not pro-abortion. Anyway, so, if a woman is threatened with rape, she CHOOSES to be raped? Wow. So, women who are held down and raped against their will are choosing to be raped? Men in prison who are forced into sodomy are CHOOSING this? Would you mind telling me what the alternatives are?
> 
> By the way, were you ever going to show me where in U.S. history abortion has ever been classified as murder? You seemed pretty confident that I didn't know what I was talking about.
Click to expand...


Did I say you were pro abortion? I said the pro abortion crowd is brain dead. Just because you are also brain dead does not mean I think you are pro abortion. If you were not brain dead you would understand that.

By the way, since someone was indicted for murder in 2011 for preforming abortion, I see no need to prove the obvious.

http://www.rhrealitycheck.org/blog/...or-performs-illegal-abortions-indicted-murder


----------



## OohPooPahDoo

luddly.neddite said:


> Rick Berg, North Dakota GOP Senate Candidate: No Abortion Access For Rape Victims
> 
> He must plan on raising the unwanted fetus. I mean, surely he would not demand the power to control women's lives unless he also planned to take responsibility for his power over them.
> 
> He probably also believes in slavery - ultimate control over people's lives.



That is what their platform implicitly states as well.


The Republicans do support putting rapists in prison.

They also support government forcing the victims of those rapists - at point of a gun if neccessary - to bear the offspring of their attackers. However, they do NOT support government helping the victims of the rapists to bear the fianncial burden of raising the rapist's child. *

So in Republican land - a rapist can sit in prison knowing his victim's hell has only just begun. Not only does she have to bear the physical and mental trauma of the attack itself - she must bear the child of her attacker - and then she must bear the entire financial burden of raising her attacker's child while he sits in prison getting his meals paid for by the tax payer.*


----------



## sfcalifornia

Quantum Windbag said:


> sfcalifornia said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Quantum Windbag said:
> 
> 
> 
> Actually, it does.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What kind of response is that?  Are you conceding but just want the last word?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You argued that consequences mean I am not free, that is absurd.
Click to expand...


Now you are being obtuse.

You are not free from consequence if you commit murder.


----------



## Jimmy_Jam

Quantum Windbag said:


> Jimmy_Jam said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Quantum Windbag said:
> 
> 
> 
> If a woman is threatened with something, and chooses to be raped, that means she thinks that the alternative is worse than rape. Anyone with an IQ about the freezing point of water would grasp that without explanation. Noomi is the one that made the ridiculous claim the fact that I have spent so much time pointing out the obvious just shows how brain dead the pro abortion crowd is.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not pro-abortion. Anyway, so, if a woman is threatened with rape, she CHOOSES to be raped? Wow. So, women who are held down and raped against their will are choosing to be raped? Men in prison who are forced into sodomy are CHOOSING this? Would you mind telling me what the alternatives are?
> 
> By the way, were you ever going to show me where in U.S. history abortion has ever been classified as murder? You seemed pretty confident that I didn't know what I was talking about.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Did I say you were pro abortion? I said the pro abortion crowd is brain dead. Just because you are also brain dead does not mean I think you are pro abortion. If you were not brain dead you would understand that.
> 
> By the way, since someone was indicted for murder in 2011 for preforming abortion, I see no need to prove the obvious.
> 
> Doctor Who Performed Illegal Abortions Indicted for Murder | RH Reality Check
Click to expand...


I'm familiar with that case. Dr. Gosnell appears to be a real piece of shit. However, first off, he is _indicted_ for murder, not yet convicted. He is indicted for eight counts of murder, the woman, and allegedly the babies that were born alive and then killed when he severed their spinal cords. However, the conviction of murder is going to be dependent on the state of "life" of the babies, not on the qualification of abortion being defined as murder, because it is not, in ANY state. 

The story is chilling to say the least, and I have zero sympathy for whatever awaits him if he is convicted. However, I will continue to ask, when has abortion ever been defined as murder in the U.S.?


----------



## Quantum Windbag

sfcalifornia said:


> Quantum Windbag said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sfcalifornia said:
> 
> 
> 
> What kind of response is that?  Are you conceding but just want the last word?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You argued that consequences mean I am not free, that is absurd.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Now you are being obtuse.
> 
> You are not free from consequence if you commit murder.
Click to expand...


I suggest you take a little time to read my signature before you apologize to the guy that has spread that message in every single post he has made on this board.


----------



## Quantum Windbag

Jimmy_Jam said:


> Quantum Windbag said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jimmy_Jam said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not pro-abortion. Anyway, so, if a woman is threatened with rape, she CHOOSES to be raped? Wow. So, women who are held down and raped against their will are choosing to be raped? Men in prison who are forced into sodomy are CHOOSING this? Would you mind telling me what the alternatives are?
> 
> By the way, were you ever going to show me where in U.S. history abortion has ever been classified as murder? You seemed pretty confident that I didn't know what I was talking about.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Did I say you were pro abortion? I said the pro abortion crowd is brain dead. Just because you are also brain dead does not mean I think you are pro abortion. If you were not brain dead you would understand that.
> 
> By the way, since someone was indicted for murder in 2011 for preforming abortion, I see no need to prove the obvious.
> 
> Doctor Who Performed Illegal Abortions Indicted for Murder | RH Reality Check
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I'm familiar with that case. Dr. Gosnell appears to be a real piece of shit. However, first off, he is _indicted_ for murder, not yet convicted. He is indicted for eight counts of murder, the woman, and allegedly the babies that were born alive and then killed when he severed their spinal cords. However, the conviction of murder is going to be dependent on the state of "life" of the babies, not on the qualification of abortion being defined as murder, because it is not, in ANY state.
> 
> The story is chilling to say the least, and I have zero sympathy for whatever awaits him if he is convicted. However, I will continue to ask, when has abortion ever been defined as murder in the U.S.?
Click to expand...


He couldn't have been indicted if it the abortions he preformed were not murder under the law, could he?


----------



## sfcalifornia

Quantum Windbag said:


> sfcalifornia said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Quantum Windbag said:
> 
> 
> 
> You argued that consequences mean I am not free, that is absurd.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Now you are being obtuse.
> 
> You are not free from consequence if you commit murder.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I suggest you take a little time to read my signature before you apologize to the guy that has spread that message in every single post he has made on this board.
Click to expand...


Oh please!

Anyone is "free" to commit murder as long as they don't personally object to it on a moral basis.  

Now _that_ is absurd.


----------



## Jimmy_Jam

Quantum Windbag said:


> Jimmy_Jam said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Quantum Windbag said:
> 
> 
> 
> Did I say you were pro abortion? I said the pro abortion crowd is brain dead. Just because you are also brain dead does not mean I think you are pro abortion. If you were not brain dead you would understand that.
> 
> By the way, since someone was indicted for murder in 2011 for preforming abortion, I see no need to prove the obvious.
> 
> Doctor Who Performed Illegal Abortions Indicted for Murder | RH Reality Check
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm familiar with that case. Dr. Gosnell appears to be a real piece of shit. However, first off, he is _indicted_ for murder, not yet convicted. He is indicted for eight counts of murder, the woman, and allegedly the babies that were born alive and then killed when he severed their spinal cords. However, the conviction of murder is going to be dependent on the state of "life" of the babies, not on the qualification of abortion being defined as murder, because it is not, in ANY state.
> 
> The story is chilling to say the least, and I have zero sympathy for whatever awaits him if he is convicted. However, I will continue to ask, when has abortion ever been defined as murder in the U.S.?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> He couldn't have been indicted if it the abortions he preformed were not murder under the law, could he?
Click to expand...


You really are missing the point. The establishment of murder is dependent on the live birth status of the babies he allegedly killed. It is something that has yet to be determined. If the prosecution is unable to establish that the babies were live born and then terminated, then he can only be convicted of murder of the mother. If they have a strong case for this, then I hope they gain the conviction. If they don't then they really should go after him for whatever penalty they can make stick that involved late-term abortions.

This is the problem I have with the approach that the pro-life movement uses. Unborn babies deserve some kind of protection. Going back and forth over whether or not it is murder is about as effective as animal right advocates trying to establish eating meat as murder. Despite what your personal or moral feelings might be on the matter, the only people that suffer are that woman and those poor babies. The fact that that was able to happen in the first place is the real travesty, and is a much bigger failure than whether or not abortion gets classified as murder.


----------



## Quantum Windbag

sfcalifornia said:


> Quantum Windbag said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sfcalifornia said:
> 
> 
> 
> Now you are being obtuse.
> 
> You are not free from consequence if you commit murder.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I suggest you take a little time to read my signature before you apologize to the guy that has spread that message in every single post he has made on this board.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Oh please!
> 
> Anyone is "free" to commit murder as long as they don't personally object to it on a moral basis.
> 
> Now _that_ is absurd.
Click to expand...


Everyone is free to commit murder, the trick is not whinging about paying the price if you get caught. Stand up, explain why you did it, and let the jury figure out if you were right.


----------



## Quantum Windbag

Jimmy_Jam said:


> Quantum Windbag said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jimmy_Jam said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm familiar with that case. Dr. Gosnell appears to be a real piece of shit. However, first off, he is _indicted_ for murder, not yet convicted. He is indicted for eight counts of murder, the woman, and allegedly the babies that were born alive and then killed when he severed their spinal cords. However, the conviction of murder is going to be dependent on the state of "life" of the babies, not on the qualification of abortion being defined as murder, because it is not, in ANY state.
> 
> The story is chilling to say the least, and I have zero sympathy for whatever awaits him if he is convicted. However, I will continue to ask, when has abortion ever been defined as murder in the U.S.?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> He couldn't have been indicted if it the abortions he preformed were not murder under the law, could he?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You really are missing the point. The establishment of murder is dependent on the live birth status of the babies he allegedly killed. It is something that has yet to be determined. If the prosecution is unable to establish that the babies were live born and then terminated, then he can only be convicted of murder of the mother. If they have a strong case for this, then I hope they gain the conviction. If they don't then they really should go after him for whatever penalty they can make stick that involved late-term abortions.
> 
> This is the problem I have with the approach that the pro-life movement uses. Unborn babies deserve some kind of protection. Going back and forth over whether or not it is murder is about as effective as animal right advocates trying to establish eating meat as murder. Despite what your personal or moral feelings might be on the matter, the only people that suffer are that woman and those poor babies. The fact that that was able to happen in the first place is the real travesty, and is a much bigger failure than whether or not abortion gets classified as murder.
Click to expand...


Again with the lies, or are you just stupid? Murder extends to unborn children in 36 states, including California.


----------



## emilynghiem

Maybe the issue then is not paying into an unmanaged system of wasteful bureaucracy,
but to localize the programs where there is accountability of who is paying for
what services being received. And where costs are excessive due to waste or abuse, then the abusers are held accountable, not charging more to law abiding productive citizens!

The Bible calls for us to respect civil institutions and authority. If you look up Public Law
96-303, The Code of Ethics for Govt Service would negate any waste of public resources
instead of solving the social problems that are creating the waste and drain on resources.
ethics-commission.net



LilOlLady said:


> luddly.neddite said:
> 
> 
> 
> So, you think the pubpots are adopting unwanted babies? Yeah right. They just want to keep women down and out.
> ===
> 
> You haven't been reading my posts.
> 
> I believe just the opposite. And I also believe I* should not be forced to pay for your health care *or the *health care of illegals*.
> 
> I just with the rw's weren't such lazy moochers and would pay for their own.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I taxes pay for my abortions and my healthcare. I paid into to system and have a right to collect. Illegal aliens work an pay taxes that pay for their healthcare. Even in ER. Ilegal aliens should not have to pay for your social security and medicare either.
> Most of the people who are needing a helping hand has already paid into the system and it's pay up time when they need it. What you are paying in now will be there when you lose your job or get too sick to work. We take care of our own as the Christian God commands.
Click to expand...


----------



## Jimmy_Jam

Quantum Windbag said:


> Jimmy_Jam said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Quantum Windbag said:
> 
> 
> 
> He couldn't have been indicted if it the abortions he preformed were not murder under the law, could he?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You really are missing the point. The establishment of murder is dependent on the live birth status of the babies he allegedly killed. It is something that has yet to be determined. If the prosecution is unable to establish that the babies were live born and then terminated, then he can only be convicted of murder of the mother. If they have a strong case for this, then I hope they gain the conviction. If they don't then they really should go after him for whatever penalty they can make stick that involved late-term abortions.
> 
> This is the problem I have with the approach that the pro-life movement uses. Unborn babies deserve some kind of protection. Going back and forth over whether or not it is murder is about as effective as animal right advocates trying to establish eating meat as murder. Despite what your personal or moral feelings might be on the matter, the only people that suffer are that woman and those poor babies. The fact that that was able to happen in the first place is the real travesty, and is a much bigger failure than whether or not abortion gets classified as murder.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Again with the lies, or are you just stupid? Murder extends to unborn children in 36 states, including California.
Click to expand...


Sigh*

I prefer "liar liar pants on fire."

I am not arguing the loss of life or that a baby is killed. I agree with you. However, in none of those states is abortion "murder." There is a distinct difference legally between "murder," and other forms of killing, such as negligent manslaughter. Abortion is not murder in ANY of the 50 states since Roe v. Wade. This is not a lie. This is verifiable fact. Why do you insist on calling me a liar when all you have to do is read what I post. Murder has a distinct legal meaning and definition, whether the majority of Americans consider it murder or not. 

Again, I will make myself perfectly clear, the unborn deserve to be protected under the law. In some states they have some protections. As long as the pro-life movement continues to label it a murder, they will continue to lose the battle. I am not inventing or lying when I say that the law has always recognized a life at live birth. I would like to see this change, but the hysterical crying of "murder" is not going to get it done.

So, again, you're missing the point. If you want to say that abortion is killing, well, I would have to agree with you. If you want to say that it is murder, then I will continue to ask, at what point. It was never classified as murder, even before Roe v. Wade. 

But that's okay. Call me a liar again. You're the one saying that abortion is considered murder in 36 states. But I'm not calling you a liar, just mistaken.


----------



## emilynghiem

Noomi said:


> koshergrl said:
> 
> 
> 
> You do realize that if you kill some guy in the future, and you claim he raped you, that your comment here shows INTENT TO KILL and you won't get off on self defense?
> 
> It's super idiotic to spout off about who you would kill if given a chance.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I disagree. There is nothing wrong with stating that if a man attempted to rape you, you would fight to the death. Which I would.
Click to expand...


I believe there should be stronger consequences for rape.
I would go so far as to promote signed agreements per state or district,
where citizens agree to forfeit citizenship if they commit premeditated
crimes using weapons involving rape, robbery or murder. And whoever
cannot sign or abide by that agreement can't live there but agrees to work with
correctional programs if they have some criminal condition they cannot control.
Currently we do not teach people the laws we expect to be followed in order to have
citizenship, and you wonder why people have no clue about running up the costs
if there were no rules set out by written agreement up front in order to live here.
There should be a signed agreement that people will pay restitution themselves,
so there is an understanding of how much this really costs instead of taking it for granted as paid by the state!

I believe there should be restitution to rape victims paid by
money or labor directly by the rapists. We would turn the economy around
on its head if there were restitution for all the rape, crime and trafficking victims
invested in building service centers and jobs in schools and health care,
along the border to restore communities currently overrun by violent crimes with no accountability for the cost to victims and society. 

If we enforced a higher standard on accountability and costs for crime and corruption,
we could balance state budgets with pay back and even loans against
debts and damages, worked off over time by the wrongdoers actually responsible
instead of charging the costs to taxpayers!


----------



## emilynghiem

Jimmy_Jam said:


> Quantum Windbag said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jimmy_Jam said:
> 
> 
> 
> You really are missing the point. The establishment of murder is dependent on the live birth status of the babies he allegedly killed. It is something that has yet to be determined. If the prosecution is unable to establish that the babies were live born and then terminated, then he can only be convicted of murder of the mother. If they have a strong case for this, then I hope they gain the conviction. If they don't then they really should go after him for whatever penalty they can make stick that involved late-term abortions.
> 
> This is the problem I have with the approach that the pro-life movement uses. Unborn babies deserve some kind of protection. Going back and forth over whether or not it is murder is about as effective as animal right advocates trying to establish eating meat as murder. Despite what your personal or moral feelings might be on the matter, the only people that suffer are that woman and those poor babies. The fact that that was able to happen in the first place is the real travesty, and is a much bigger failure than whether or not abortion gets classified as murder.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Again with the lies, or are you just stupid? Murder extends to unborn children in 36 states, including California.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Sigh*
> 
> I prefer "liar liar pants on fire."
> 
> I am not arguing the loss of life or that a baby is killed. I agree with you. However, in none of those states is abortion "murder." There is a distinct difference legally between "murder," and other forms of killing, such as negligent manslaughter. Abortion is not murder in ANY of the 50 states since Roe v. Wade. This is not a lie. This is verifiable fact. Why do you insist on calling me a liar when all you have to do is read what I post. Murder has a distinct legal meaning and definition, whether the majority of Americans consider it murder or not.
> 
> Again, I will make myself perfectly clear, the unborn deserve to be protected under the law. In some states they have some protections. As long as the pro-life movement continues to label it a murder, they will continue to lose the battle. I am not inventing or lying when I say that the law has always recognized a life at live birth. I would like to see this change, but the hysterical crying of "murder" is not going to get it done.
> 
> So, again, you're missing the point. If you want to say that abortion is killing, well, I would have to agree with you. If you want to say that it is murder, then I will continue to ask, at what point. It was never classified as murder, even before Roe v. Wade.
> 
> But that's okay. Call me a liar again. You're the one saying that abortion is considered murder in 36 states. But I'm not calling you a liar, just mistaken.
Click to expand...


I agree that "insisting on treating or labeling abortion as murder" is not necessary,
loses the audience, and tends to defeats arguments before any points can be made after that. It is generally unproductive, and there are better ways to frame things where problems can be addressed and resolved instead of killing the conversation over this point.

I cannot stress enough what a difference it makes in reaching an agreement
if people agree to stick to common terms and points first. The same resolutions and points
can be better reached more effectively over time, using common framework in order to
avoiding getting caught up in side conflicts that detract from resolving problems
that would have made a bigger difference in the overall process and goals.

I hope you don't give up, but continue to work on addressing what are really the issues common to both, and not lose connection over terms that aren't.

For example, if you bring up "suffering" that may be a common issue that all sides seek to prevent, instead of limiting this to murder. Preventing "suffering" would equally apply to preventing abuse of sex or abuse of relations that precede pregnancy and abortion, so it would cover more of the causes that need to be prevented as well. Maybe that is more productive to address, and the same solutions would apply to preventing abortion.


----------



## Quantum Windbag

Jimmy_Jam said:


> Quantum Windbag said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jimmy_Jam said:
> 
> 
> 
> You really are missing the point. The establishment of murder is dependent on the live birth status of the babies he allegedly killed. It is something that has yet to be determined. If the prosecution is unable to establish that the babies were live born and then terminated, then he can only be convicted of murder of the mother. If they have a strong case for this, then I hope they gain the conviction. If they don't then they really should go after him for whatever penalty they can make stick that involved late-term abortions.
> 
> This is the problem I have with the approach that the pro-life movement uses. Unborn babies deserve some kind of protection. Going back and forth over whether or not it is murder is about as effective as animal right advocates trying to establish eating meat as murder. Despite what your personal or moral feelings might be on the matter, the only people that suffer are that woman and those poor babies. The fact that that was able to happen in the first place is the real travesty, and is a much bigger failure than whether or not abortion gets classified as murder.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Again with the lies, or are you just stupid? Murder extends to unborn children in 36 states, including California.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Sigh*
> 
> I prefer "liar liar pants on fire."
> 
> I am not arguing the loss of life or that a baby is killed. I agree with you. However, in none of those states is abortion "murder." There is a distinct difference legally between "murder," and other forms of killing, such as negligent manslaughter. Abortion is not murder in ANY of the 50 states since Roe v. Wade. This is not a lie. This is verifiable fact. Why do you insist on calling me a liar when all you have to do is read what I post. Murder has a distinct legal meaning and definition, whether the majority of Americans consider it murder or not.
> 
> Again, I will make myself perfectly clear, the unborn deserve to be protected under the law. In some states they have some protections. As long as the pro-life movement continues to label it a murder, they will continue to lose the battle. I am not inventing or lying when I say that the law has always recognized a life at live birth. I would like to see this change, but the hysterical crying of "murder" is not going to get it done.
> 
> So, again, you're missing the point. If you want to say that abortion is killing, well, I would have to agree with you. If you want to say that it is murder, then I will continue to ask, at what point. It was never classified as murder, even before Roe v. Wade.
> 
> But that's okay. Call me a liar again. You're the one saying that abortion is considered murder in 36 states. But I'm not calling you a liar, just mistaken.
Click to expand...


Yet a doctor who aborted babies was charged with murder.


----------



## Jimmy_Jam

Quantum Windbag said:


> Jimmy_Jam said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Quantum Windbag said:
> 
> 
> 
> Again with the lies, or are you just stupid? Murder extends to unborn children in 36 states, including California.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sigh*
> 
> I prefer "liar liar pants on fire."
> 
> I am not arguing the loss of life or that a baby is killed. I agree with you. However, in none of those states is abortion "murder." There is a distinct difference legally between "murder," and other forms of killing, such as negligent manslaughter. Abortion is not murder in ANY of the 50 states since Roe v. Wade. This is not a lie. This is verifiable fact. Why do you insist on calling me a liar when all you have to do is read what I post. Murder has a distinct legal meaning and definition, whether the majority of Americans consider it murder or not.
> 
> Again, I will make myself perfectly clear, the unborn deserve to be protected under the law. In some states they have some protections. As long as the pro-life movement continues to label it a murder, they will continue to lose the battle. I am not inventing or lying when I say that the law has always recognized a life at live birth. I would like to see this change, but the hysterical crying of "murder" is not going to get it done.
> 
> So, again, you're missing the point. If you want to say that abortion is killing, well, I would have to agree with you. If you want to say that it is murder, then I will continue to ask, at what point. It was never classified as murder, even before Roe v. Wade.
> 
> But that's okay. Call me a liar again. You're the one saying that abortion is considered murder in 36 states. But I'm not calling you a liar, just mistaken.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yet a doctor who aborted babies was charged with murder.
Click to expand...


Right, for the death of the mother, and for the death of 7 babies if the prosecution can establish that it was the killing of live born babies. If he is convicted of murder for any of the babies, then it will be a legal precedent. Until then, as I keep saying over and over and you don't seem to acknowledge, nobody has ever been convicted of murder for an abortion. Illegal, fine. Murder, no. That's all I have said all along.


----------



## sfcalifornia

Quantum Windbag said:


> sfcalifornia said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Quantum Windbag said:
> 
> 
> 
> I suggest you take a little time to read my signature before you apologize to the guy that has spread that message in every single post he has made on this board.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oh please!
> 
> Anyone is "free" to commit murder as long as they don't personally object to it on a moral basis.
> 
> Now _that_ is absurd.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Everyone is free to commit murder, the trick is not whinging about paying the price if you get caught. Stand up, explain why you did it, and let the jury figure out if you were right.
Click to expand...


Really?  Has that worked for you a lot?  

Either that or you're in prison as we speak....  yearning for freedom......


----------



## Quantum Windbag

Jimmy_Jam said:


> Quantum Windbag said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jimmy_Jam said:
> 
> 
> 
> Sigh*
> 
> I prefer "liar liar pants on fire."
> 
> I am not arguing the loss of life or that a baby is killed. I agree with you. However, in none of those states is abortion "murder." There is a distinct difference legally between "murder," and other forms of killing, such as negligent manslaughter. Abortion is not murder in ANY of the 50 states since Roe v. Wade. This is not a lie. This is verifiable fact. Why do you insist on calling me a liar when all you have to do is read what I post. Murder has a distinct legal meaning and definition, whether the majority of Americans consider it murder or not.
> 
> Again, I will make myself perfectly clear, the unborn deserve to be protected under the law. In some states they have some protections. As long as the pro-life movement continues to label it a murder, they will continue to lose the battle. I am not inventing or lying when I say that the law has always recognized a life at live birth. I would like to see this change, but the hysterical crying of "murder" is not going to get it done.
> 
> So, again, you're missing the point. If you want to say that abortion is killing, well, I would have to agree with you. If you want to say that it is murder, then I will continue to ask, at what point. It was never classified as murder, even before Roe v. Wade.
> 
> But that's okay. Call me a liar again. You're the one saying that abortion is considered murder in 36 states. But I'm not calling you a liar, just mistaken.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yet a doctor who aborted babies was charged with murder.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Right, for the death of the mother, and for the death of 7 babies if the prosecution can establish that it was the killing of live born babies. If he is convicted of murder for any of the babies, then it will be a legal precedent. Until then, as I keep saying over and over and you don't seem to acknowledge, nobody has ever been convicted of murder for an abortion. Illegal, fine. Murder, no. That's all I have said all along.
Click to expand...


This guy was convicted of attempted murder over an abortion.

Dominic Holt-Reid sentenced to 13 years for attempting to force his then-girlfriend to get abortion - New York Daily News

The problem with your demand is that those cases would have happened before the internet was invented, and it is difficult to find examples using Google or Bing. I do know that Roe v Wade specifically challenged the law in Texas, which made it illegal for doctors to perform abortions, and that the decision specifically raised the issue that doctors were not charged with premeditated murder under the stature. The justices wanted to know why they were only charged with the lesser offense of felony murder. They also wanted to know why no woman was ever charged with murder.


The simple fact is that abortion used to be prosecuted as murder in the United States. That is historical fact, even if I can't find a specific example.


----------



## Jimmy_Jam

Quantum Windbag said:


> Jimmy_Jam said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Quantum Windbag said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yet a doctor who aborted babies was charged with murder.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Right, for the death of the mother, and for the death of 7 babies if the prosecution can establish that it was the killing of live born babies. If he is convicted of murder for any of the babies, then it will be a legal precedent. Until then, as I keep saying over and over and you don't seem to acknowledge, nobody has ever been convicted of murder for an abortion. Illegal, fine. Murder, no. That's all I have said all along.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> This guy was convicted of attempted murder over an abortion.
> 
> Dominic Holt-Reid sentenced to 13 years for attempting to force his then-girlfriend to get abortion - New York Daily News
> 
> The problem with your demand is that those cases would have happened before the internet was invented, and it is difficult to find examples using Google or Bing. I do know that Roe v Wade specifically challenged the law in Texas, which made it illegal for doctors to perform abortions, and that the decision specifically raised the issue that doctors were not charged with premeditated murder under the stature. The justices wanted to know why they were only charged with the lesser offense of felony murder. They also wanted to know why no woman was ever charged with murder.
> 
> 
> The simple fact is that abortion used to be prosecuted as murder in the United States. That is historical fact, even if I can't find a specific example.
Click to expand...


We do far more splitting hairs than is healthy, Quantum. Abortion carries with it varying degrees of illegality, depending on the state. You find these oddball cases where the envelope is pushed on the issue, and I commend you for that, but then you also make claims that 36 states classify abortion as murder, and that simply is an outright falsehood. Again, we're splitting hairs. Abortion is not given a legal classification of "murder" in an of itself. I'm not lying when I say it. Cases where prosecutors have established it as such typically involve late-term terminations where the laws start to get hazy over whether or not it is even an abortion in the general sense. 

I think we can both come to terms on one aspect at least: we both believe that life in the womb deserves some kind of protection under the law. I simply believe that the pro-life movement, as a whole, approaches the issue in a way that is more harmful to the cause of that protection than helpful. The law, as the general understanding of "abortion" is concerned, does not view it as murder in a legal sense. Trying to classify it as murder across the board is not helping. All it does is drive deeper wedges in a country already polarized to the point of near paralysis in almost every sense, both politically and culturally. You may see it as a moral imperative to regard all abortion as murder, I simply see it as destructive.


----------



## emilynghiem

Jimmy_Jam said:


> I think we can both come to terms on one aspect at least: we both believe that life in the womb deserves some kind of protection under the law. I simply believe that the pro-life movement, as a whole, approaches the issue in a way that is more harmful to the cause of that protection than helpful. The law, as the general understanding of "abortion" is concerned, does not view it as murder in a legal sense. Trying to classify it as murder across the board is not helping. All it does is drive deeper wedges in a country already polarized to the point of near paralysis in almost every sense, both politically and culturally. You may see it as a moral imperative to regard all abortion as murder, I simply see it as destructive.



Very well stated. I agree with JJ on this.
I am extremely sympathetic and admiring of Prolife outreach, and want more prochoice
advocates to work together to stop abortion, but I keep running into this kind of divide
that is killing any chance of full cooperation on prevention and solutions.  

You can argue day and night about the "letter of the argument"
because the "spirit of the argument" is already in conflict.

We'd have to first agree on a common APPROACH to the issue,
to avoid such entanglements and conflicts over how this is framed in that context.
If you already clash on how you set up the context, no amount of clarification of terms
is going to fix that. The foundation is already cracked and both people are on opposite sides.

Especially if the point of prolife arguments is to influence prochoice people or others coming from some other viewpoint or direction, you'd have to set up the discussion to begin with on common ground BOTH sides agree to stand on. Otherwise, it is set up to fail from the beginning, and all the words will clash from there on.

Whatever fear is causing that defensiveness, where people won't let go of the stance they are clinging to, get rid of that fear first, and the words and understanding you need will follow from there.  The fear of letting that go is getting in the way.  

BTW this is a good and helpful part of the process to overcome that fear; it pays off in the longrun to be able to work with others and get to the same points without this kind of obstruction.

So I am very grateful for you for having this discussion and letting all this come forth.  If all people confronted their fears and got them out of the way, we'd be making much more progress getting rid of the same problems that cause abuse, crime, murder, abortion, etc.
These all come from broken relations blocked by fear and unforgiven/unresolved conflicts.

So even this process here is part of strengthening positive relations as needed to overcome all other social ills caused by the same things messing up relationships. Thank you very much


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## Soggy in NOLA

People are being denied abortions?

Who knew?


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## emilynghiem

Originally posted by NYCarbineer said:
			
		

> Somebody has to get punished in order to balance the budget? Who would you prefer to punish?



Not sure what context this question came out from.
But my answer is why not charge back the parties who COST the taxpayers' money.

Instead of hiring lawyers to cover up and get people off on technicalities so they are never held responsible, why not create jobs for lawyers, interns and law schools doing the opposite: collecting on behalf of taxpayers.

So by investigating all cases of crime, corruption, waste or govt/corporate malfeasance or conflicts of interest:
* cost of debts/damages/interest to taxpayers can be assessed
* trail or chain of accountability, and who got what at taxpayers expense can be tracked
* payment plans for paying back taxpayers over time can be negotiated as settlements
* even wrongdoers can be held for the cost of legal/prosecution/prison costs instead of
charging taxpayers a second and third time for the same crimes
* and if there is a gap in time between paying taxpayers back, and investing that money into rebuilding jobs, schools and economies/infrastructure, then I would also recommend that a similar system under the Federal Reserve be established for each account, issuing bonds against the debts to taxpayers, and using that capital to finance each project while holding the assets, property or programs developed as 'collateral' against the amoutn of the debt while it is either being paid off by the wrongdoers or it is bought out by shareholders, private citizens who choose to invest in the projects and gain interest while the debt is paid.

So we'd turn the tables on govt, instead of taxpayers footing the bill for crime and corruption, we would get paid back plus interest while wrongdoers are held to pay it back!


----------



## Gadawg73

emilynghiem said:


> Originally posted by NYCarbineer said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Somebody has to get punished in order to balance the budget? Who would you prefer to punish?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Not sure what context this question came out from.
> But my answer is why not charge back the parties who COST the taxpayers' money.
> 
> Instead of hiring lawyers to cover up and get people off on technicalities so they are never held responsible, why not create jobs for lawyers, interns and law schools doing the opposite: collecting on behalf of taxpayers.
> 
> So by investigating all cases of crime, corruption, waste or govt/corporate malfeasance or conflicts of interest:
> * cost of debts/damages/interest to taxpayers can be assessed
> * trail or chain of accountability, and who got what at taxpayers expense can be tracked
> * payment plans for paying back taxpayers over time can be negotiated as settlements
> * even wrongdoers can be held for the cost of legal/prosecution/prison costs instead of
> charging taxpayers a second and third time for the same crimes
> * and if there is a gap in time between paying taxpayers back, and investing that money into rebuilding jobs, schools and economies/infrastructure, then I would also recommend that a similar system under the Federal Reserve be established for each account, issuing bonds against the debts to taxpayers, and using that capital to finance each project while holding the assets, property or programs developed as 'collateral' against the amoutn of the debt while it is either being paid off by the wrongdoers or it is bought out by shareholders, private citizens who choose to invest in the projects and gain interest while the debt is paid.
> 
> So we'd turn the tables on govt, instead of taxpayers footing the bill for crime and corruption, we would get paid back plus interest while wrongdoers are held to pay it back!
Click to expand...


Under what Constitutional authority does one do any of what you suggest?
You are combining criminal and civil procedure which are totally different in all phases of the law.


----------



## Quantum Windbag

Gadawg73 said:


> emilynghiem said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Originally posted by NYCarbineer said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Somebody has to get punished in order to balance the budget? Who would you prefer to punish?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Not sure what context this question came out from.
> But my answer is why not charge back the parties who COST the taxpayers' money.
> 
> Instead of hiring lawyers to cover up and get people off on technicalities so they are never held responsible, why not create jobs for lawyers, interns and law schools doing the opposite: collecting on behalf of taxpayers.
> 
> So by investigating all cases of crime, corruption, waste or govt/corporate malfeasance or conflicts of interest:
> * cost of debts/damages/interest to taxpayers can be assessed
> * trail or chain of accountability, and who got what at taxpayers expense can be tracked
> * payment plans for paying back taxpayers over time can be negotiated as settlements
> * even wrongdoers can be held for the cost of legal/prosecution/prison costs instead of
> charging taxpayers a second and third time for the same crimes
> * and if there is a gap in time between paying taxpayers back, and investing that money into rebuilding jobs, schools and economies/infrastructure, then I would also recommend that a similar system under the Federal Reserve be established for each account, issuing bonds against the debts to taxpayers, and using that capital to finance each project while holding the assets, property or programs developed as 'collateral' against the amoutn of the debt while it is either being paid off by the wrongdoers or it is bought out by shareholders, private citizens who choose to invest in the projects and gain interest while the debt is paid.
> 
> So we'd turn the tables on govt, instead of taxpayers footing the bill for crime and corruption, we would get paid back plus interest while wrongdoers are held to pay it back!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Under what Constitutional authority does one do any of what you suggest?
> You are combining criminal and civil procedure which are totally different in all phases of the law.
Click to expand...


The same one that gives the government the power to make contracts.


----------



## Noomi

Quantum Windbag said:


> Jimmy_Jam said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Quantum Windbag said:
> 
> 
> 
> Again with the lies, or are you just stupid? Murder extends to unborn children in 36 states, including California.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sigh*
> 
> I prefer "liar liar pants on fire."
> 
> I am not arguing the loss of life or that a baby is killed. I agree with you. However, in none of those states is abortion "murder." There is a distinct difference legally between "murder," and other forms of killing, such as negligent manslaughter. Abortion is not murder in ANY of the 50 states since Roe v. Wade. This is not a lie. This is verifiable fact. Why do you insist on calling me a liar when all you have to do is read what I post. Murder has a distinct legal meaning and definition, whether the majority of Americans consider it murder or not.
> 
> Again, I will make myself perfectly clear, the unborn deserve to be protected under the law. In some states they have some protections. As long as the pro-life movement continues to label it a murder, they will continue to lose the battle. I am not inventing or lying when I say that the law has always recognized a life at live birth. I would like to see this change, but the hysterical crying of "murder" is not going to get it done.
> 
> So, again, you're missing the point. If you want to say that abortion is killing, well, I would have to agree with you. If you want to say that it is murder, then I will continue to ask, at what point. It was never classified as murder, even before Roe v. Wade.
> 
> But that's okay. Call me a liar again. You're the one saying that abortion is considered murder in 36 states. But I'm not calling you a liar, just mistaken.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yet a doctor who aborted babies was charged with murder.
Click to expand...


Was that the doctor who delivered those babies ALIVE and then killed them? If so, those babies didn't die from abortion, did they?


----------



## koshergrl

Actually, they were babies that were aborted...but survived..and were killed.

As many do. Talk to abortion workers.


----------



## 4Horsemen

I think it's in very POOR TASTE for Planned Parenthood to be behind the scenes promoting abortions for rape victims, when the number of slutbags with no responsibility vs. rape victims is most likley 10:1, in favor of the slutbags. 

It's really sad PP has to support this kind of underhanded tactics to validate abortion.


----------



## Jimmy_Jam

Noomi said:


> Quantum Windbag said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jimmy_Jam said:
> 
> 
> 
> Sigh*
> 
> I prefer "liar liar pants on fire."
> 
> I am not arguing the loss of life or that a baby is killed. I agree with you. However, in none of those states is abortion "murder." There is a distinct difference legally between "murder," and other forms of killing, such as negligent manslaughter. Abortion is not murder in ANY of the 50 states since Roe v. Wade. This is not a lie. This is verifiable fact. Why do you insist on calling me a liar when all you have to do is read what I post. Murder has a distinct legal meaning and definition, whether the majority of Americans consider it murder or not.
> 
> Again, I will make myself perfectly clear, the unborn deserve to be protected under the law. In some states they have some protections. As long as the pro-life movement continues to label it a murder, they will continue to lose the battle. I am not inventing or lying when I say that the law has always recognized a life at live birth. I would like to see this change, but the hysterical crying of "murder" is not going to get it done.
> 
> So, again, you're missing the point. If you want to say that abortion is killing, well, I would have to agree with you. If you want to say that it is murder, then I will continue to ask, at what point. It was never classified as murder, even before Roe v. Wade.
> 
> But that's okay. Call me a liar again. You're the one saying that abortion is considered murder in 36 states. But I'm not calling you a liar, just mistaken.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yet a doctor who aborted babies was charged with murder.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Was that the doctor who delivered those babies ALIVE and then killed them? If so, those babies didn't die from abortion, did they?
Click to expand...


Well, that was the point I was trying to make. I'm glad somebody picked up on it.


----------



## Quantum Windbag

Noomi said:


> Quantum Windbag said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jimmy_Jam said:
> 
> 
> 
> Sigh*
> 
> I prefer "liar liar pants on fire."
> 
> I am not arguing the loss of life or that a baby is killed. I agree with you. However, in none of those states is abortion "murder." There is a distinct difference legally between "murder," and other forms of killing, such as negligent manslaughter. Abortion is not murder in ANY of the 50 states since Roe v. Wade. This is not a lie. This is verifiable fact. Why do you insist on calling me a liar when all you have to do is read what I post. Murder has a distinct legal meaning and definition, whether the majority of Americans consider it murder or not.
> 
> Again, I will make myself perfectly clear, the unborn deserve to be protected under the law. In some states they have some protections. As long as the pro-life movement continues to label it a murder, they will continue to lose the battle. I am not inventing or lying when I say that the law has always recognized a life at live birth. I would like to see this change, but the hysterical crying of "murder" is not going to get it done.
> 
> So, again, you're missing the point. If you want to say that abortion is killing, well, I would have to agree with you. If you want to say that it is murder, then I will continue to ask, at what point. It was never classified as murder, even before Roe v. Wade.
> 
> But that's okay. Call me a liar again. You're the one saying that abortion is considered murder in 36 states. But I'm not calling you a liar, just mistaken.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yet a doctor who aborted babies was charged with murder.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Was that the doctor who delivered those babies ALIVE and then killed them? If so, those babies didn't die from abortion, did they?
Click to expand...


He killed them as part of an abortion. If you don't believe me, just ask Obama, he voted against making the practice illegal. 

Twice.


----------



## Quantum Windbag

Jimmy_Jam said:


> Noomi said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Quantum Windbag said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yet a doctor who aborted babies was charged with murder.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Was that the doctor who delivered those babies ALIVE and then killed them? If so, those babies didn't die from abortion, did they?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Well, that was the point I was trying to make. I'm glad somebody picked up on it.
Click to expand...


The point is the pro abortion crowd, like Obama, think killing babies who are born after an abortion should be legal.


----------



## Jimmy_Jam

Quantum Windbag said:


> Jimmy_Jam said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Noomi said:
> 
> 
> 
> Was that the doctor who delivered those babies ALIVE and then killed them? If so, those babies didn't die from abortion, did they?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well, that was the point I was trying to make. I'm glad somebody picked up on it.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The point is the pro abortion crowd, like Obama, think killing babies who are born after an abortion should be legal.
Click to expand...


HEY QUANTUM! Good to see you. I missed you.


----------

