# Why would a God even need a hell?



## Mickiel (May 19, 2016)

I have asked myself why a God would need a hell, ( and by hell I mean the Christian version of it). I mean here this great being of life and love , is said to have created a place of eternal misery? And something is just not right with that, because it makes no sense at all. But a lot of things in religion make no sense, but religion rains on humanity, getting all of our consciousness wet in one manner or another.

My view of God, and I don't know God, have never seen him or heard his voice; is a view that I know is already distorted by many things; but I view him as merciful, loving, kind, forgiving, longsuffering, all the things that this Christian hell is not. So I don't think this hell is God's creation, I think the Christians created it. I think this eternal hell punishing is what Christians would do with unbelievers, not God. I think its moreso what the Christians want.

Why would God make an eternal monument out of evil? For what? Why would such a being of great power of change, co-exist with misery forever? Why? I can't see it. I think something is seriously wrong with this myopic view of hell! The powers that exist which can seduce the consciousness of humanity into believing nonsense, is simply stunning.


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## pillars (May 19, 2016)

Hell is a European concept, springing from the Nordic goddess Hel, who ruled over the underworld.

Jews didn't believe in the concept of hell, and there is some debate over whether they believed in the afterlife.  

This is an interesting article on Gehenna versus Sheol in Jewish and early Christian literature:  Gehenna - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## Hugo Furst (May 19, 2016)

I've read that some believe this is Hell, and how we behave here determines whether we enter Heaven, or an eternal void.


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## TNHarley (May 19, 2016)

Cant invoke fear without proper punishment!


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## pillars (May 19, 2016)

Hell is a threat used to force compliance to a particular religious hierarchy.


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## mudwhistle (May 19, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> I have asked myself why a God would need a hell, ( and by hell I mean the Christian version of it). I mean here this great being of life and love , is said to have created a place of eternal misery? And something is just not right with that, because it makes no sense at all. But a lot of things in religion make no sense, but religion rains on humanity, getting all of our consciousness wet in one manner or another.
> 
> My view of God, and I don't know God, have never seen him or heard his voice; is a view that I know is already distorted by many things; but I view him as merciful, loving, kind, forgiving, longsuffering, all the things that this Christian hell is not. So I don't think this hell is God's creation, I think the Christians created it. I think this eternal hell punishing is what Christians would do with unbelievers, not God. I think its moreso what the Christians want.
> 
> Why would God make an eternal monument out of evil? For what? Why would such a being of great power of change, co-exist with misery forever? Why? I can't see it. I think something is seriously wrong with this myopic view of hell! The powers that exist which can seduce the consciousness of humanity into believing nonsense, is simply stunning.


Just figure if there is good there is also evil. The reason you don't understand is because you're human.


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## saveliberty (May 19, 2016)

Because he loved enough to give the gift of freewill.  He didn't want robots following a scripted life.  Unfortunately we don't always make great decisions, so sin is a possibility.  With sin being harmful to our lives a serious loss of eternal life with Him became a consequence.  God does not need Hell, we need the possibility of it.


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## Dajjal (May 19, 2016)

I rejected the God that burns people in hellfire when I was sixteen (which was a long time ago). I was a little afraid of incurring the wrath of God when I rejected the biblical teachings, but as soon as I decided to do this I felt a sense of  well being an a sort of spiritual feeling of goodness. In later years I discovered a belief system I could accept in spiritualism. Which teaches there is no lasting hell and no devil.
I first discovered spiritualist teachings in a book called, 'the teachings of silver birch'

Sorry this post is all about me, but its the only way I can tell you what I believe.

Silver Birch's Teachings


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## TNHarley (May 19, 2016)

saveliberty said:


> Because he loved enough to give the gift of freewill.  He didn't want robots following a scripted life.  .


 Do you not see the irony in that?
How is free will 2 choices?
1. do what he says
2. spend eternity damned in a pit of fire


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## saveliberty (May 19, 2016)

TNHarley said:


> saveliberty said:
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> > Because he loved enough to give the gift of freewill.  He didn't want robots following a scripted life.  .
> ...



You have a choice, didn't say you were going to like either one.
btw, it is just a way too look at the subject.  Feel free to like it or not.

Freewill.


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## Hossfly (May 19, 2016)




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## TNHarley (May 19, 2016)

saveliberty said:


> TNHarley said:
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 then whats the point of free will? In fact, how is it even free will, if you were to get punished for using it?


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## saveliberty (May 19, 2016)

Apparently there is a highway, cross reference AC/DC.


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## saveliberty (May 19, 2016)

TNHarley said:


> then whats the point of free will? In fact, how is it even free will, if you were to get punished for using it?



But you can ask for forgiveness, that is the message of Christ.  A loving God offers forgiveness for those that seek it and repent.  Again, just a viewpoint, do with it what you want.


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## saveliberty (May 19, 2016)

I bet there is a ton of construction zones on the highway to Hell.


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## Mickiel (May 19, 2016)

I don't need the possibility of hell, because I don't believe a God would hurt humans for an eternity; I mean the punishment would not fit the crime. In example, ( because I think we need to see an example, because some believers in God don't SEE what eternity would be like ; they don't realize what they are believing with this eternal hell torture stuff) , if I " Sin" for seventy years straight and never believe in God, then what is fair about sentencing me to an eternal punishment? I mean even giving me 500 years of punishing, for just 70 years of sin would be unfair.

But this uncanny Christian belief would allow 9 million years of punishing for 70 years of sin, but it would go beyond the 9 million years, on into 1,000 trillion years, on into infinity; that is what eternity would be like. To punish a human for that long, I think would be insane. It can't be sane to do something like that, yet what is more frightening, is that people BELIEVE that this will be done by God. So our belief systems can ingest insanity and think its good or normal. I think this perverts the reputation of God, who by definition, is a Good being.


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## TNHarley (May 19, 2016)

saveliberty said:


> TNHarley said:
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> > then whats the point of free will? In fact, how is it even free will, if you were to get punished for using it?
> ...


 I hear that a lot. People can do whatever they want as long as they go around yelling "I love jesus". Not trying to offend you man. It just sounds ridiculous to me.


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## Hugo Furst (May 19, 2016)

saveliberty said:


> Apparently there is a highway, cross reference AC/DC.



But only a Stairway to Heaven


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## Hossfly (May 19, 2016)

saveliberty said:


> I bet there is a ton of construction zones on the highway to Hell.


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## TNHarley (May 19, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> I don't need the possibility of hell, because I don't believe a God would hurt humans for an eternity; I mean the punishment would not fit the crime. In example, ( because I think we need to see an example, because some believers in God don't SEE what eternity would be like ; they don't realize what they are believing with this eternal hell torture stuff) , if I " Sin" for seventy years straight and never believe in God, then what is fair about sentencing me to an eternal punishment? I mean even giving me 500 years of punishing, for just 70 years of sin would be unfair.
> 
> But this uncanny Christian belief would allow 9 million years of punishing for 70 years of sin, but it would go beyond the 9 million years, on into 1,000 trillion years, on into infinity; that is what eternity would be like. To punish a human for that long, I think would be insane. It can't be sane to do something like that, yet what is more frightening, is that people BELIEVE that this will be done by God. So our belief systems can ingest insanity and think its good or normal. I think this perverts the reputation of God, who by definition, is a Good being.


 indeed. To be loving, he sure is a murderous, tyrannical asshole.


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## Hugo Furst (May 19, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> I don't need the possibility of hell, because I don't believe a God would hurt humans for an eternity; I mean the punishment would not fit the crime. In example, ( because I think we need to see an example, because some believers in God don't SEE what eternity would be like ; they don't realize what they are believing with this eternal hell torture stuff) , if I " Sin" for seventy years straight and never believe in God, then what is fair about sentencing me to an eternal punishment? I mean even giving me 500 years of punishing, for just 70 years of sin would be unfair.
> 
> But this uncanny Christian belief would allow 9 million years of punishing for 70 years of sin, but it would go beyond the 9 million years, on into 1,000 trillion years, on into infinity; that is what eternity would be like. To punish a human for that long, I think would be insane. It can't be sane to do something like that, yet what is more frightening, is that people BELIEVE that this will be done by God. So our belief systems can ingest insanity and think its good or normal. I think this perverts the reputation of God, who by definition, is a Good being.



I was under the impression everyone was in Limbo til the end of the world


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## Dajjal (May 19, 2016)

One way I knew the Quran was all lies within twenty minutes of reading it for the first time is that it lays on the tortures of hellfire, to a ridiculous degree. It is obviously made up to scare people into following Muhammad.
The same thing can be said of the bible, and the lake of fire was originally a scare story in the Egyptian book of the dead. Each religion has stolen fear of hell from a previous theology.


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## Dajjal (May 19, 2016)

WillHaftawaite said:


> I was under the impression everyone was in Limbo til the end of the world



In spiritualism we go to a higher realm of experience when we die. We remain there as long as we need to and then reincarnate onto this, or some other planet. We continue to reincarnate until reaching a state of grace, or enlightenment. And until we have settled all our karma from past lives. Then we finish needing incarnation and we continue to progress as immortal beings in higher worlds.
There are dark realms where evil people go, which could be called hell.  But this is temporary, and they eventually reincarnate and progress. In any case the dark regions are supposedly cold, and there is no hellfire.


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## Mickiel (May 19, 2016)

Why would God need a hell, why would he even need religion in fact. I think he knows he does not need those things, but infected humanity with them anyway. There is perhaps a lesson in that he is teaching, but whatever that lesson is, we ain't getting it. As one poster mentioned, good and evil exist, and I think God planted those two concepts on earth at our conception, and God knew it would confuse us. And it has, that is WHY this concept of eternal hell punishing is so strong. God is said to have created and planted the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, giving birth to both concepts out of the same tree, or same atmosphere- earth. Planted means he created it; both concepts. In my view. Which is why I do not believe he would condemn a human for being infected by concepts he created. Like punishing me for failing to uphold a weight you put on my back.

No, I don't view a God like that. We did not ask to be here , and I don't think we were created to be put on trial and judged according to how we handle the unseen great influences in life.

Why would God need a hell? Why would a God need a garbage pit of punishing? For what? Oh you think that he could come up with nothing better? No better solution or ending?

I am not even a God and I can come up with better solutions than hell.


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## saveliberty (May 19, 2016)

TNHarley said:


> saveliberty said:
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I am not offended, just offered one possible answer.  You cannot reason your way to faith, which gets to be another trap.


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## Hugo Furst (May 19, 2016)

Dajjal said:


> WillHaftawaite said:
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> > I was under the impression everyone was in Limbo til the end of the world
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We do?

Been there, done that, have you?


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## saveliberty (May 19, 2016)

Again God doesn't NEED any of this, He is offering it to His creation.  Early on God warned us about the Tree of Knowledge.  It is now termed Original Sin.


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## Dajjal (May 19, 2016)

WillHaftawaite said:


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I studied spiritualism since the 1960's and that is the consensus of what they teach. I pieced these ideas together from many sources such as famous mediums at the spiritualist association in London who gave trance lectures.
I also sat in psychic developing circles and received many messages from the spirit world.


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## Hugo Furst (May 19, 2016)

Dajjal said:


> WillHaftawaite said:
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That's nice.

SO,  you've been thru it, and remember some of your old lives?

You've met people that have been resurrected, and remember their past?

Must have been an interesting conversation


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## CrusaderFrank (May 19, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> I have asked myself why a God would need a hell, ( and by hell I mean the Christian version of it). I mean here this great being of life and love , is said to have created a place of eternal misery? And something is just not right with that, because it makes no sense at all. But a lot of things in religion make no sense, but religion rains on humanity, getting all of our consciousness wet in one manner or another.
> 
> My view of God, and I don't know God, have never seen him or heard his voice; is a view that I know is already distorted by many things; but I view him as merciful, loving, kind, forgiving, longsuffering, all the things that this Christian hell is not. So I don't think this hell is God's creation, I think the Christians created it. I think this eternal hell punishing is what Christians would do with unbelievers, not God. I think its moreso what the Christians want.
> 
> Why would God make an eternal monument out of evil? For what? Why would such a being of great power of change, co-exist with misery forever? Why? I can't see it. I think something is seriously wrong with this myopic view of hell! The powers that exist which can seduce the consciousness of humanity into believing nonsense, is simply stunning.



Correct. He's got Detroit and Chicago so hell is completely redundant


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## Mickiel (May 19, 2016)

Hey, why would God even create an eternal pain amphlifier? For what ? Its incredible to me how religion believes that Jesus was punished so bad, only that unbelievers can be punished for eternity? As if Godly forgiveness and mercy is not greater than this arcane judgment. I even think hell in the bible is seriously misinterpreted. I mean it means " The grave", it nowhere means eternal hell punishing. Hell is mentioned 31 times in the Old Testament, each of those times its " Sheol" , the Hebrew word for grave. Hell is mentioned only 23 times in the New Testament, 12 times it means " Gehanna", a physical valley outside of Jerusalem where they burned refuse; 10 times it means " Hades", or still meaning the grave, and only one time it means " Tartaros", the Greek for hell, but only this one has an eternal sense connected to it, and it was clearly meaning only for demons.

I think this whole hell thing has been an historical mess, interesting on its impact on the consciousness of humanity; and evidence that religion can " Pin things on God" that they really created themselves, and people follow these human influenced things like sheep.


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## Dajjal (May 19, 2016)

WillHaftawaite said:


> Dajjal said:
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I do not remember any past lives, but in the developing circles I have sat in people would go into trance, and be taken over by spirit guides, and I was able to ask them questions.


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## Hugo Furst (May 19, 2016)

Glad you believe it is real.

I dont'


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## Penelope (May 19, 2016)

saveliberty said:


> Apparently there is a highway, cross reference AC/DC.



Stairway to Heaven verses  Highway to Hell.


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## pillars (May 19, 2016)

saveliberty said:


> Because he loved enough to give the gift of freewill.  He didn't want robots following a scripted life.  Unfortunately we don't always make great decisions, so sin is a possibility.  With sin being harmful to our lives a serious loss of eternal life with Him became a consequence.  God does not need Hell, we need the possibility of it.



How does the threat of torture contribute to greater free will?


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## pillars (May 19, 2016)

saveliberty said:


> You have a choice, didn't say you were going to like either one.
> btw, it is just a way too look at the subject.  Feel free to like it or not.
> 
> Freewill.



How does torturing human beings for eternity benefit either God or humans?


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## Uncensored2008 (May 19, 2016)

Why would a God need hell?

He needs a place to put the democrats. 

And let's face it, a place occupied solely by democrats is GOING to be hell...


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## Divine Wind (May 19, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> Hey, why would God even create an eternal pain amphlifier? For what ? Its incredible to me how religion believes that Jesus was punished so bad, only that unbelievers can be punished for eternity? As if Godly forgiveness and mercy is not greater than this arcane judgment. I even think hell in the bible is seriously misinterpreted. I mean it means " The grave", it nowhere means eternal hell punishing. Hell is mentioned 31 times in the Old Testament, each of those times its " Sheol" , the Hebrew word for grave. Hell is mentioned only 23 times in the New Testament, 12 times it means " Gehanna", a physical valley outside of Jerusalem where they burned refuse; 10 times it means " Hades", or still meaning the grave, and only one time it means " Tartaros", the Greek for hell, but only this one has an eternal sense connected to it, and it was clearly meaning only for demons.
> 
> I think this whole hell thing has been an historical mess, interesting on its impact on the consciousness of humanity; and evidence that religion can " Pin things on God" that they really created themselves, and people follow these human influenced things like sheep.


You seem to be mixing two things:  The reality of God and mankind's perception of God.  Most of mankind's perceptions of God are a bunch of hooey.  God is God, a mysterious power behind the creation of the natural universe.  Human perceptions of spirituality are fuzzy at best, but many have common ideas of good and bad and the belief that there is more to existence than mere physical mortality.  This part really pisses of the atheists.  

As for Hell, I doubt a all loving, all merciful God would condemn someone to exist in pain.  Ergo, Hell isn't a prison or someplace one is sent.  It's simply being without God.  We have free will and if we choose to step outside of God's grace, that's our choice.  And it's also what I would refer to Hell.  If a soul wants to go back into God's grace, even if that soul was Lucifer, an all loving, all merciful God would accept them.


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## Divine Wind (May 19, 2016)

pillars said:


> saveliberty said:
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> > You have a choice, didn't say you were going to like either one.
> ...


It doesn't.  However, people are free to torture themselves.


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## pillars (May 19, 2016)

Thanks, but I don't consider your deity "all-loving" or particularly merciful.

There are far better options.


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## Mickiel (May 19, 2016)

saveliberty said:


> Because he loved enough to give the gift of freewill.  He didn't want robots following a scripted life.  Unfortunately we don't always make great decisions, so sin is a possibility.  With sin being harmful to our lives a serious loss of eternal life with Him became a consequence.  God does not need Hell, we need the possibility of it.



,

You know what , if by free will you mean that God would allow humans to be stupid enough to end up in some religious eternal madness punishing in some conscious pit of untold misery, just so that they could be " Free enough" to deserve their future, then I think it makes more sense to save them as robots, than to see them doomed by this so called free will.

What would be more harmful, a human sinning by their own will, or a human being consciously punished in some madness merciless pain pit for eternity? I don't care how harmful sin is, if the real punishment for sin is eternal hurting of humans, then the punishment is FAR more harmful than the crime; and in my view, that does NOT describe how this great God would punish. God has to be more wise than that.

Why would God need a punishment for a human that does not correct them and forgive them and change them? Now IF God were a religious human, then yes, I could see him hurting humans forever just for not believing in him.

I just don't think God is religious, nor do I view him as being a Christian, or a Muslim, or a Jehovahs Witness, or any of these religions on earth. I don't view this God as being male or female, black or white, I mean he can't be anything human. And I, for one, am glad of that; he will not punish like a human would. And he does not love like a human loves. God does not need to do things human; and eternal punishing is human desire, not Godly desire. I think God desires that we all make it, 1 Tim. 2:3-4 plainly reveals that. People just don't believe it, because its too good to be true.


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## Divine Wind (May 19, 2016)

pillars said:


> Thanks, but I don't consider your deity "all-loving" or particularly merciful.
> 
> *There are far better options*.


Name a few options.  Are they akin to "when you're dead, you're dead" and there is no purpose to life other than eating, sleeping and fucking?


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## saveliberty (May 19, 2016)

Divine.Wind said:


> pillars said:
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> 
> > Thanks, but I don't consider your deity "all-loving" or particularly merciful.
> ...



Hammie is only interested in the eating part.


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## Mickiel (May 19, 2016)

Why would a God need a place like this religious hell? As if he has a " Herd the sinful cattle together and section them off from everybodyelse mentality".  As if this God could do nothingelse for us sinners. Or as if what Christ already  has done has not been enough. Where do we get these awful religious dogmas? How can such ruthless concepts and beliefs seep so far into the human belief system?


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## saveliberty (May 19, 2016)

You asked a few questions and decided against my answers.  Since I refuse to get preachy, I guess I am done.


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## Divine Wind (May 19, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> Why would a God need a place like this religious hell? As if he has a " Herd the sinful cattle together and section them off from everybodyelse mentality".  As if this God could do nothingelse for us sinners. Or as if what Christ already  has done has not been enough. Where do we get these awful religious dogmas? How can such ruthless concepts and beliefs seep so far into the human belief system?


A more fundamental question is "Why did God create the Universe?"  Answer that and the Hell question will probably be answered.


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## Mickiel (May 19, 2016)

saveliberty said:


> You asked a few questions and decided against my answers.  Since I refuse to get preachy, I guess I am done.




Peace on your journey then.

Now, in my view of things, IF the god were a devil, then I could see it needing a place like the religious interpretation of hell; now that would fit! That would make sense. But for religions to try and get away with pinning it on a God of truth and grace, a God of mercy and forgiveness; a God of Love and salvation, now something is seriously wrong with that.

I don't know God, but I can't figure out why he allows these religions to get away with perverting his ways and means. I mean they are seriously spoiling the linen.


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## Divine Wind (May 19, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> ....I don't know God, but I can't figure out why he allows these religions to get away with perverting his ways and means. I mean they are seriously spoiling the linen.


My guess is that's part of why we're here; to figure it out on our own. Is there any doubt that if God wanted to do so, we'd all have all the information God wants us to know imprinted in our genes?


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## Mickiel (May 19, 2016)

Divine.Wind said:


> [QUOTE="]
> A more fundamental question is "Why did God create the Universe?"  Answer that and the Hell question will probably be answered.




That would be quite something, to know why. I personally think he created the universe to one day be populated by his creations, which would include man. I mean why waste the universe, such an expanse. Its literally endless, its so large and vast; it would make sense for it to have the same future as humanity; to exist forever. To be used; to be enjoyed; to be explored.

In my personal view, this God will always create things, I don't think there will ever be an end to him  expanding on things; but that's just my view.


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## Mickiel (May 19, 2016)

Divine.Wind said:


> Mickiel said:
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> > ....I don't know God, but I can't figure out why he allows these religions to get away with perverting his ways and means. I mean they are seriously spoiling the linen.
> ...




I agree, if God wanted us to know something, we would.


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## Divine Wind (May 19, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> That would be quite something, to know why. I personally think he created the universe to one day be populated by his creations, which would include man. I mean why waste the universe, such an expanse. Its literally endless, its so large and vast; it would make sense for it to have the same future as humanity; to exist forever. To be used; to be enjoyed; to be explored.
> 
> In my personal view, this God will always create things, I don't think there will ever be an end to him  expanding on things; but that's just my view.


Yes, the Universe is vast and makes a very big playground, but the human race can be taken out by a rock or ourselves.   Unlike some of our ancestors believed, I don't believe we're the center of the Universe nor God's only creation.


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## Uncensored2008 (May 19, 2016)

Penelope said:


> Stairway to Heaven verses  Highway to Hell.



The Stairway to Heaven is heroin.


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## Mickiel (May 19, 2016)

Divine.Wind said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > That would be quite something, to know why. I personally think he created the universe to one day be populated by his creations, which would include man. I mean why waste the universe, such an expanse. Its literally endless, its so large and vast; it would make sense for it to have the same future as humanity; to exist forever. To be used; to be enjoyed; to be explored.
> ...




I believe we are the center of the universe, not the physical center, but the spiritual one. Its a spirit thang. And I agree we are not God's only creation, but I think, as of now, we are among the most important. I can't see any matter in the universe being more important than humanity. But I don't really know, who know's whatelse this God may have going on? I just don't think this hell came from him, or the religious interpretation of salvation and our future.


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## Mickiel (May 19, 2016)

Uncensored2008 said:


> Penelope said:
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Heroin would be more like an escalator to heaven.


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## Hossfly (May 19, 2016)

Divine.Wind said:


> Mickiel said:
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> 
> > Why would a God need a place like this religious hell? As if he has a " Herd the sinful cattle together and section them off from everybodyelse mentality".  As if this God could do nothingelse for us sinners. Or as if what Christ already  has done has not been enough. Where do we get these awful religious dogmas? How can such ruthless concepts and beliefs seep so far into the human belief system?
> ...


My contention is that God said not to question Him or His motives and not to search the Bible for answers for "it will be hidden from you." That is my opinion.


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## Mickiel (May 19, 2016)

Hossfly said:


> [QUOTE="answered.


My contention is that God said not to question Him or His motives and not to search the Bible for answers for "it will be hidden from you." That is my opinion.[/QUOTE]


 If you don't mind, show me the biblical verses that show God saying a man cannot question him, or search the bible for answers; I would like to see that, because I never have seen such verses before.


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## Hossfly (May 19, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> Hossfly said:
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If you don't mind, show me the biblical verses that show God saying a man cannot question him, or search the bible for answers; I would like to see that, because I never have seen such verses before.[/QUOTE]
Then it was hidden from you.


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## Mickiel (May 19, 2016)

Hossfly said:


> Mickiel said:
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Then it was hidden from you.[/QUOTE]


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## Agit8r (May 19, 2016)

The purpose is to scare people into thinking with their amygdala, which is not sharp enough to tell reason from nonsense.


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## Mickiel (May 19, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> Mickiel said:
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Then it was hidden from you.[/QUOTE]


Interesting reply, quite evasive in my view. No matter what level I am blind to the bible, I think one should provide to those who ask, the biblical verses they claim have been recited; especially if they are claiming that God has said something. I disagree with you that God has said no man can question him or search the bible for answers; I have never seen that in the bible. However, I will not twist your arm to show, what I already know does not exist, which is really WHY you are being so evasive.

But I have seen many believers in God do this kind of thing, and I have never liked it. But its their way. And their way is transparent and I see through it.


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## Hossfly (May 19, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> Mickiel said:
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> > Mickiel said:
> ...




Interesting reply, quite evasive in my view. No matter what level I am blind to the bible, I think one should provide to those who ask, the biblical verses they claim have been recited; especially if they are claiming that God has said something. I disagree with you that God has said no man can question him or search the bible for answers; I have never seen that in the bible. However, I will not twist your arm to show, what I already know does not exist, which is really WHY you are being so evasive.

But I have seen many believers in God do this kind of thing, and I have never liked it. But its their way. And their way is transparent and I see through it.[/QUOTE]
Not being evasive. Just saying if you search for things in the Bible that God doesn't want you to know, you won't be able to find it and if a righteous person knows it, he won't be able to convey that knowledge to you. It's hard to explain.


----------



## Mickiel (May 19, 2016)

[QUOTE=".[/QUOTE]


Not being evasive. Just saying if you search for things in the Bible that God doesn't want you to know, you won't be able to find it and if a righteous person knows it, he won't be able to convey that knowledge to you. It's hard to explain.[/QUOTE]

I am not requesting explanation or your personal knowledge, I simply requested that you post the scriptures where God commands that humans cannot question him or search the bible for truth. I am saying no such scriptures exist; simply provide them, instead of suggesting that you are so righteous as to see them, and I am not.


----------



## Hossfly (May 19, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> [QUOTE=".




Not being evasive. Just saying if you search for things in the Bible that God doesn't want you to know, you won't be able to find it and if a righteous person knows it, he won't be able to convey that knowledge to you. It's hard to explain.[/QUOTE]

I am not requesting explanation or your personal knowledge, I simply requested that you post the scriptures where God commands that humans cannot question him or search the bible for truth. I am saying no such scriptures exist; simply provide them, instead of suggesting that you are so righteous as to see them, and I am not.[/QUOTE]
I don't have the time or inclination to do any research. I said in my first reply it was my opinion.


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## Mickiel (May 19, 2016)

[QUOTE="Hossfly, post: ]
I don't have the time or inclination to do any research. I said in my first reply it was my opinion.[/QUOTE]

Well I am a bit different than you, I have done the research, and God has never commanded that humans cannot question him or search the bible for truth. Now the bible does " Imply it" in some cases, but God never personally said it. So I understand if you have been swayed by implication. You said it was your opinion, but you also said God said it, and I know God did not; you just don't seem to know that.

In fact, let me now say that if I ever imply anything in the bible during this thread, I announce I will always show it if requested; gladly; whether or not I think the reader is " Spiritual enough" to understand it.


----------



## Mickiel (May 19, 2016)

I have a question Hossfly, on the title box of this thread to the left, there is a picture of an eye; if you touch the eye with your mouse it then says" Watched".

What does that mean?


----------



## Hossfly (May 19, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> [QUOTE="Hossfly, post: ]
> I don't have the time or inclination to do any research. I said in my first reply it was my opinion.



Well I am a bit different than you, I have done the research, and God has never commanded that humans cannot question him or search the bible for truth. Now the bible does " Imply it" in some cases, but God never personally said it. So I understand if you have been swayed by implication. You said it was your opinion, but you also said God said it, and I know God did not; you just don't seem to know that.

In fact, let me now say that if I ever imply anything in the bible during this thread, I announce I will always show it if requested; gladly; whether or not I think the reader is " Spiritual enough" to understand it.[/QUOTE]


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## Hossfly (May 19, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> I have a question Hossfly, on the title box of this thread to the left, there is a picture of an eye; if you touch the eye with your mouse it then says" Watched".
> 
> What does that mean?


If you comment in a thread it means you either commented in the thread or checked "watch thread" above the post#.


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## Mickiel (May 19, 2016)

Hossfly said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > I have a question Hossfly, on the title box of this thread to the left, there is a picture of an eye; if you touch the eye with your mouse it then says" Watched".
> ...




Oh good, I thought it may have meant the site was watching it because of something negative.


----------



## LittleNipper (May 20, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> I have asked myself why a God would need a hell, ( and by hell I mean the Christian version of it). I mean here this great being of life and love , is said to have created a place of eternal misery? And something is just not right with that, because it makes no sense at all. But a lot of things in religion make no sense, but religion rains on humanity, getting all of our consciousness wet in one manner or another.
> 
> My view of God, and I don't know God, have never seen him or heard his voice; is a view that I know is already distorted by many things; but I view him as merciful, loving, kind, forgiving, longsuffering, all the things that this Christian hell is not. So I don't think this hell is God's creation, I think the Christians created it. I think this eternal hell punishing is what Christians would do with unbelievers, not God. I think its moreso what the Christians want.
> 
> Why would God make an eternal monument out of evil? For what? Why would such a being of great power of change, co-exist with misery forever? Why? I can't see it. I think something is seriously wrong with this myopic view of hell! The powers that exist which can seduce the consciousness of humanity into believing nonsense, is simply stunning.


Hell is a separation from God and nothing more. Those finding themselves there rejected God. God didn't reject them. That is the Christian view. What hurts those who inhabit hell inevitably is the realization that things could have been different --- if only they had accepted the truth instead of the lie.


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## Divine Wind (May 20, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> I believe we are the center of the universe, not the physical center, but the spiritual one. Its a spirit thang. And I agree we are not God's only creation, but I think, as of now, we are among the most important. I can't see any matter in the universe being more important than humanity. But I don't really know, who know's whatelse this God may have going on? I just don't think this hell came from him, or the religious interpretation of salvation and our future.



Mankind has always been a bit egocentric, but I fail to see any evidence that, in a universe as large as ours, that we're at the center of it for the supreme being that created it.  I also fail to see why God would only put intelligent life on Earth.


----------



## Divine Wind (May 20, 2016)

LittleNipper said:


> Hell is a separation from God and nothing more. Those finding themselves there rejected God. God didn't reject them. That is the Christian view. What hurts those who inhabit hell inevitably is the realization that things could have been different --- if only they had accepted the truth instead of the lie.


Agreed.  However, I also believe God is all merciful and will accept those who do accept the truth.


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## Divine Wind (May 20, 2016)

Agit8r said:


> The purpose is to scare people into thinking with their amygdala, which is not sharp enough to tell reason from nonsense.


That's more about the nature of religion, not human spirituality and the nature of the power that created the Universe.


----------



## Mickiel (May 20, 2016)

Divine.Wind said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > I believe we are the center of the universe, not the physical center, but the spiritual one. Its a spirit thang. And I agree we are not God's only creation, but I think, as of now, we are among the most important. I can't see any matter in the universe being more important than humanity. But I don't really know, who know's whatelse this God may have going on? I just don't think this hell came from him, or the religious interpretation of salvation and our future.
> ...




Well the evidence that I would use , if I had to make a case for this being the center of the universe, is that the bible reveals that God will return to earth one day, and recreate it and make it the focal point of his Kingdom; and actually put his throne here. Now, if God is going to do such a thing, then in my view, that is a strong case for the earth being the center of not only the universe, but life itself.

Where ever God is, I think one could rightly say that is the center of all things.


----------



## Uncensored2008 (May 20, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> Heroin would be more like an escalator to heaven.



Take it up with Robert Plant...


----------



## Likkmee (May 20, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> I have asked myself why a God would need a hell, ( and by hell I mean the Christian version of it). I mean here this great being of life and love , is said to have created a place of eternal misery? And something is just not right with that, because it makes no sense at all. But a lot of things in religion make no sense, but religion rains on humanity, getting all of our consciousness wet in one manner or another.
> 
> My view of God, and I don't know God, have never seen him or heard his voice; is a view that I know is already distorted by many things; but I view him as merciful, loving, kind, forgiving, longsuffering, all the things that this Christian hell is not. So I don't think this hell is God's creation, I think the Christians created it. I think this eternal hell punishing is what Christians would do with unbelievers, not God. I think its moreso what the Christians want.
> 
> Why would God make an eternal monument out of evil? For what? Why would such a being of great power of change, co-exist with misery forever? Why? I can't see it. I think something is seriously wrong with this myopic view of hell! The powers that exist which can seduce the consciousness of humanity into believing nonsense, is simply stunning.


People cull' all sorts of things from mis-patterend or colored animals. Too small. Too big.Horse cant run well. Bull not muscular enough. Millions of Koi are sorted and tossed away every year and  "few are chosen-many are culled". Why shouldn't God do the same with his idiot farm ?
 He only took eight from the last litter(Noah and family).


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## Divine Wind (May 20, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> Well the evidence that I would use , if I had to make a case for this being the center of the universe, is that the bible reveals that God will return to earth one day, and recreate it and make it the focal point of his Kingdom; and actually put his throne here. Now, if God is going to do such a thing, then in my view, that is a strong case for the earth being the center of not only the universe, but life itself.
> 
> Where ever God is, I think one could rightly say that is the center of all things.


Your evidence was compiled by a bunch of white guys in 325AD with a particular religious-political agenda to push. 

There are many great truisms in the Bible, but let's not forget it is inherently flawed having been passed through the hands of Man.   Example; how many versions/interpretations of the Bible are there today?  How many denominations of Christianity?  

If something is perfectly true, then there can only be one.  

Bible Hub: Search, Read, Study the Bible in Many Languages

Why are there so many denominations? | Bibleinfo.com


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## hobelim (May 20, 2016)

Divine.Wind said:


> Why are there so many denominations?




There are so many denominations because until Jesus returns and clears it all up, the best anyone could do is guess.

Hey, they may have it all screwed up but at least they tried.


----------



## Divine Wind (May 20, 2016)

hobelim said:


> Divine.Wind said:
> 
> 
> > Why are there so many denominations?
> ...


IMHO, the reason they are screwing up is because they are looking at religion as an end to itself and not simply a tool to a greater understanding of God.


----------



## hobelim (May 20, 2016)

Divine.Wind said:


> hobelim said:
> 
> 
> > Divine.Wind said:
> ...




I don't think so. In spite of the bad publicity about the corruption and many perverts in the churches there are many who are sincere and dedicated to a greater understanding and communion with God. They have just been diverted by archaic superstitious lore and are trapped.

One a person loses the ability to be rational how can they perceive the only rational course to take that will restore them to a right mind?


----------



## Mickiel (May 20, 2016)

Likkmee said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > I have asked myself why a God would need a hell, ( and by hell I mean the Christian version of it). I mean here this great being of life and love , is said to have created a place of eternal misery? And something is just not right with that, because it makes no sense at all. But a lot of things in religion make no sense, but religion rains on humanity, getting all of our consciousness wet in one manner or another.
> ...




Well I would answer by using the very words of God himself in Isaiah 45:22-23, there God himself states, " Look to me ALL the ends of the earth." Here we see God is interested in everybody, not just an idiot few on a farm.  That was verse 22, notice next verse, " I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, that to me EVERY knee shall bow and EVERY mouth shall confess."

A stunning statement from God himself, he even makes a holy vow that EVERYONE will be converted to him. When humans bow to God and confess to him, in my view, that is a sure sign of conversion. So God is after the whole liter of all of humanity. Now religion is not teaching this, they are teaching as you have stated, only those " Called" will be saved; I disagree with that, I go by what God has said, because that trumps anythingelse in the bible. But I will also argue with those believers who try to limit the calling of God to only a few, that God is calling everybody; Jesus in Luke 5:32 said " I came NOT to call the righteous, ( or believers), but sinners, ( or unbelievers), to repentance." So to all those believers running around teaching that God is only calling a few, the bible teaches that God is calling ALL sinners to repent, thus the CALLING of God is for everyone, because we ALL have sinned.

Many believers just get off on limiting God.


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## Divine Wind (May 20, 2016)

hobelim said:


> Divine.Wind said:
> 
> 
> > hobelim said:
> ...


Thanks, but it's those who are being diverted to whom I was referring.  Obviously many people "get" the spiritual side of religion.


----------



## hobelim (May 20, 2016)

Divine.Wind said:


> hobelim said:
> 
> 
> > Divine.Wind said:
> ...




 If anyone "got"  the spiritual side of religion they would never need to go to any church, ever,  where the diverting is taking place and captivity is being perpetuated.


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## Mickiel (May 20, 2016)

Now, just why would a God need a hell? I can use the bible to show he does not, and I will later. But for now lets reason together, were discussing " The Needs of a God." I would state that God " Needs Jesus", and believe that to be correct. Now, after stating that, from that point, in my view, it becomes difficult to nail down the needs of God. I would say he needs himself. I would say he needs the 24 elders on his throne. I would even go out on a limb and state he needs his angels, but the air on his needs is getting seriously thin from these points, and he may not even need his angels, I can only speculate on that.

But does he need this religious place called hell?

I would argue, no!


----------



## hobelim (May 20, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> But does he need this religious place called hell?
> 
> I would argue, no!



Its not an imaginary religious place. Its a very real state of mind marked by absence of everything good.

What would you call the state of mind where a grown person can't tell the difference between God and a cookie?


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## Mickiel (May 20, 2016)

Again allow me another point; in my view, it makes absolutely no intelligent sense for God to keep something around for eternity, that he does not like. Think about that; reason with me. If you had the power, would you keep things around that you don't like?

Now I am NOT saying that he will, but IF God wanted to, he could simply " Will things out of existence", anything! He calls himself the beginning and the end of life! We have to keep this in the possible picture, although I myself believe the destiny of all humans is to be with God, I think all demons may well face being eliminated by God once he is finished with them and their purpose.


----------



## Mickiel (May 20, 2016)

hobelim said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > But does he need this religious place called hell?
> ...




I agree that their hell is a real state of mind, but I disagree that it is not an imaginary place; it is an imagined place, pulled from the bible and distorted, and pulled from mythology and magnified. Its confusion, which is what I would call a person not knowing the difference between God and a cookie; serious confusion. This Christian hell is a serious mistranslation, pulled from the grave in the bible, and morphed into an eternal place of punishing. Its a giant stumbling block placed into humanity like a Trojan horse designed to attack the human believer from within their consciousness. To cripple their belief system and alter the salvation plans of God himself.


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## hobelim (May 20, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> hobelim said:
> 
> 
> > Mickiel said:
> ...




Yes, I see the distinction between what hell actually represents and the garbage some people believe about eternal torment in sulfurous flames which really does cripple the mind..


----------



## hadit (May 20, 2016)

TNHarley said:


> saveliberty said:
> 
> 
> > Because he loved enough to give the gift of freewill.  He didn't want robots following a scripted life.  .
> ...


But it is a choice, just as we chose to sin in the first place.  Personally, if I'm about to go over Niagra Falls and someone throws me a rope, I'm not going to ignore it because I want a boat sent out instead.


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## Mickiel (May 20, 2016)

hadit said:


> TNHarley said:
> 
> 
> > saveliberty said:
> ...




I disagree, its not just a choice, its a " Drawing", its a calling that changes the unbelievers whole position. It would be stupid for God to let any of his children choose to go over the falls , when he could still save them. Now I know many believers here keep pushing this limited view of the calling of God and the salvation of unbelievers; its their thing to do that. But again Jesus in John 12:32, " If I be lifted up, I will DRAW ALL men to me." Now, this includes EVERYONE, especially those who choose to go over the falls.

The term " Draw" here is taken from the Greek word " Helkuo", which means to " Drag!" So the people that many believers are condemning, will be Dragged away from the condemnation of these believers in God.


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## hadit (May 20, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> hadit said:
> 
> 
> > TNHarley said:
> ...


Down that road lies the "it doesn't matter how I live my life and if I totally reject all of God's love and mercy" failure.


----------



## Mickiel (May 20, 2016)

[QUOTE="hadit, post:
Down that road lies the "it doesn't matter how I live my life and if I totally reject all of God's love and mercy" failure.[/QUOTE]


Well in my view, it really does not matter; our salvation, or human salvation is not based on how we live, its an inheritance; its a gift from God; its really a miracle, but that's just how God really is, he is NOT like religion has portrayed him; he will have us ALL saved, period! Notice Rev. 22:11, " He that is unjust, let him remain that way,  he which is filthy, let him be that way still,  and he that is righteous, let them remain that way, and those who are holy, let them be holy still." In other words, it does not matter, our salvation is a done deal. The Christian hell is illrelevant.


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## Likkmee (May 20, 2016)

hobelim said:


> Divine.Wind said:
> 
> 
> > Why are there so many denominations?
> ...


The Aramic writings are far more clear that the "Royalty approved" versions one and two.
The bad news it that Granny is NOT in a better place, nor is she with Jesus. The guy that killed her isn't in Hell. These haven't been built yet.Even the two dirtbags strung up with JC aren't "with him"
Punctuation is a terrible thing !


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## Mickiel (May 20, 2016)

How many times is hell mentioned in the Bible?

Hell is being removed from many bibles.


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## Mudda (May 20, 2016)

Without hell God has nothing to threaten you with.


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## the_human_being (May 20, 2016)

Hell is very real. Hell exists. Get over it. Hell is the grave. The cemeteries of the world are full of hells.  Now, the Lake of Fire spoken of within the Bible was prepared for the Devil and the false prophet. The folks in England during the last century, placed their apples in hell for keeping through the winter months. Hell is a pit or hole in the ground. No one has faced a judgment yet therefore no one id being punished in some fiery place of torture. Christ is the judge of both the quick and the dead. He is a fair and just judge and would never send anyone to a place of punishment without the due process of a fair trial.


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## Dajjal (May 20, 2016)

Divine.Wind said:


> Yes, the Universe is vast and makes a very big playground, but the human race can be taken out by a rock or ourselves.   Unlike some of our ancestors believed, I don't believe we're the center of the Universe nor God's only creation.



According to the spirit guides I have listened too we incarnate hundreds of times in a cycle of spiritual evolution, and we do so on many different planets though out the universe. We do this because as we evolve we need different experiences and go to planets that are more advanced.

It would be remiss of God to put all his eggs in one basket. Or all his children on one planet that can easily be destroyed. So the possibility that we can continue our evolution on other planets makes sense.


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## Penelope (May 20, 2016)

Dajjal said:


> Divine.Wind said:
> 
> 
> > Yes, the Universe is vast and makes a very big playground, but the human race can be taken out by a rock or ourselves.   Unlike some of our ancestors believed, I don't believe we're the center of the Universe nor God's only creation.
> ...



So is that the theory of the good die young, so the young kids that die of cancer have passed the tests and moved on to a better place, and were only here to teach us? So we do not remember our pass life's but its tucked away in our subconscious? Is this what your saying?


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## Mickiel (May 20, 2016)

the_human_being said:


> Hell is very real. Hell exists. Get over it. Hell is the grave. The cemeteries of the world are full of hells.  Now, the Lake of Fire spoken of within the Bible was prepared for the Devil and the false prophet. The folks in England during the last century, placed their apples in hell for keeping through the winter months. Hell is a pit or hole in the ground. No one has faced a judgment yet therefore no one id being punished in some fiery place of torture. Christ is the judge of both the quick and the dead. He is a fair and just judge and would never send anyone to a place of punishment without the due process of a fair trial.




There is no such thing as a place of punishment for humans, there is no need for it, except for in the minds of those who NEED to see humans punished. Due process is a human thing, total mercy and forgiveness is a Godly thing, two entirely differing forms of punishment. There is no such thing as the religious hell, or their need to have a punishing; you know, a lynching; they NEED to see humans bleed because they desire it for them.

Thank God we are not in their hands to face THEIR punishment. We are in God's hands, and we are most fortunate of that.


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## the_human_being (May 20, 2016)

Dajjal said:


> Divine.Wind said:
> 
> 
> > Yes, the Universe is vast and makes a very big playground, but the human race can be taken out by a rock or ourselves.   Unlike some of our ancestors believed, I don't believe we're the center of the Universe nor God's only creation.
> ...



Well, the Book I read doesn't say anything about any "other lives".  It states very plainly that it is appointed unto man ONCE to die and then the judgement.


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## Divine Wind (May 20, 2016)

hobelim said:


> If anyone "got"  the spiritual side of religion they would never need to go to any church, ever,  where the diverting is taking place and captivity is being perpetuated.


A church is simply a meeting place.  You don't need religion to find God's grace, but it can help people who have trouble doing it on their own.


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## Dajjal (May 20, 2016)

Penelope said:


> Dajjal said:
> 
> 
> > Divine.Wind said:
> ...



Life is full of suffering and some of it may be karma from past lives. I cannot say why children die, but they go to the spirit world and are brought up there. According to spirit guides we go to a higher realm when we die and spend as much time there as we need to assimilate our life experience. But until the soul completes its cycle of incarnations we have to reincarnate for more experience.
There is no pressure on us in the spirit world and we cannot evolve there. We need the struggle of the physical world to make us evolve.
According to my understanding the memory of all past lives is stored in the soul body. We have a number of higher bodies such as the astral and the mental body (see theosophy) We do not normally remember our past lives until our cycle of incarnations is complete. Then we have perfect recall of all of them


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## Divine Wind (May 20, 2016)

Mudda said:


> Without hell God has nothing to threaten you with.


God doesn't threaten.  Why would a God need to do so?  Mankind, OTOH, has many reasons to keep others in line or under their thumb.


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## Dajjal (May 20, 2016)

the_human_being said:


> Well, the Book I read doesn't say anything about any "other lives".  It states very plainly that it is appointed unto man ONCE to die and then the judgement.



I have studied spiritualism and occultism since the 1960's and reincarnation is taught by most spiritualist teachers. If you think about it being judged and condemned on just one life would be a system with injustice built into it. A soul that died as a baby would be untried and untested, and would never feel themselves the equal of someone who had lived a long and full life. In any case I rejected the idea of judgement decades ago. There is cause and effect. Reincarnation and karma. We suffer for our own sins and have to work them out in every detail over many lifetimes.

Spiritualism teaches there is no lasting hell, although evil souls do go to a dark place until they are ready to repent and reincarnate for more experiences.


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## hobelim (May 20, 2016)

the_human_being said:


> Dajjal said:
> 
> 
> > Divine.Wind said:
> ...




Many people live a thousand lives and die a thousand deaths before their first life is over. Who would need another go at it after that?


----------



## Penelope (May 20, 2016)

Maybe that person is not thoroughly reborn (not having to die and be reborn physically ) . Of course in our life on earth just from my personal experience, one can be reborn over and over, if only I knew then what I know now, we all say it.  Now there are some young ones , around 7 on, that I call old souls, they love hanging out with adults and just seem to be so intuitive and gentle, while others are fighting and playing with toys, just being brats.


----------



## Dajjal (May 20, 2016)

Penelope said:


> Maybe that person is not thoroughly reborn (not having to die and be reborn physically ) . Of course in our life on earth just from my personal experience, one can be reborn over and over, if only I knew then what I know now, we all say it.  Now there are some young ones , around 7 on, that I call old souls, they love haning out with adults and just seem to be so intuitive and gentle, while others are fighting and playing with toys, being just brats.



I heard the spirit guide Ramadhan, guide of the late medium Ursula Roberts, say in a trance lecture, that the spirit of Mozart was a musician in nine incarnations before he was born as the prodigy.


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## BreezeWood (May 20, 2016)

LittleNipper said:


> Hell is a separation from God and nothing more.




... not from the Almighty but from the Everlasting, death.

as long as a Spirit exists there will always be a separation between that and all else.

.


----------



## Mudda (May 20, 2016)

Divine.Wind said:


> Mudda said:
> 
> 
> > Without hell God has nothing to threaten you with.
> ...


God gave us free will then punishes us with hell for using it.


----------



## Mickiel (May 20, 2016)

God does not need a hell, because he has a Jesus.


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## Divine Wind (May 20, 2016)

Dajjal said:


> the_human_being said:
> 
> 
> > Well, the Book I read doesn't say anything about any "other lives".  It states very plainly that it is appointed unto man ONCE to die and then the judgement.
> ...


When you say "most spiritualist teachers" you're not talking about most religious faiths.  Not even all Buddhists believe in reincarnation.  IMO, what's the point?  The most common one is growth until one finally ascends forever.


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## Divine Wind (May 20, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> God does not need a hell, because he has a Jesus.


What happens to those who aren't baptized?


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## Mickiel (May 20, 2016)

Divine.Wind said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > God does not need a hell, because he has a Jesus.
> ...




The same thing that happens to those who are, free salvation. Jesus did not baptize anybody, neither did Paul. Moses did not baptize people, neither did King David. God has never baptized a human; baptism of water is just a physical ritual that symbolizes a spiritual event. That's all it is. Water baptism is not a requirement for salvation; not from what I have read.


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## Mickiel (May 20, 2016)

Why would a God need a hell? That's like saying a God would need a prison. Why would God need a prison; why preserve things you don't want in eternity? For what? God does not need a storage bin for sinners, he can change the sinners into new creations. Religions do not know God, that's all it is too it, which is why they spread lies. Look at Rev. 21:4, " And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes, there shall be no more death, no more sorrow, no more crying and no more pain; for ALL these things WILL PASS AWAY!" Now listen; think; if the Christian hell were true, surely there would be always be crying, pain and sorrow there for all eternity; God here is contradicting that by saying he is going to END all that forever;

The religious hell is a lie.


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## Divine Wind (May 20, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> Divine.Wind said:
> 
> 
> > Mickiel said:
> ...


While I agree with you, many American Christians do not.


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## Mickiel (May 20, 2016)

Divine.Wind said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > Divine.Wind said:
> ...




Well I am not a Christian, and I certainly disagree with much of their beliefs, but I agree with a few; just a few. I go along with what the bible teaches, but I don't see the bible like Christians do; they see a very limited salvation and they see this eternal hell misery. I see unlimited salvation and no hell for any human.

Christianity does not hold a monopoly on the truth. They think they own the bible, when they do not. The bible has no copy rights on it; it was not written by Christians or for Christians, although they like to think that. Most of the authors of the bible are in the Old Testament, none of them were Christians. And even in the New Testament, it was the Romans who named the current believers of that time " Christians", they did not call themselves that until after Antioch, but it was in Antioch that they were first " Called Christians", Acts 11:26. So the books of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John were not written by Christians.


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## Divine Wind (May 20, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> Well I am not a Christian, and I certainly disagree with much of their beliefs, but I agree with a few; just a few. I go along with what the bible teaches, *but I don't see the bible like Christians do;* they see a very limited salvation and they see this eternal hell misery. I see unlimited salvation and no hell for any human.
> 
> Christianity does not hold a monopoly on the truth. They think they own the bible, when they do not. The bible has no copy rights on it; it was not written by Christians or for Christians, although they like to think that. Most of the authors of the bible are in the Old Testament, none of them were Christians. And even in the New Testament, it was the Romans who named the current believers of that time " Christians", they did not call themselves that until after Antioch, but it was in Antioch that they were first " Called Christians", Acts 11:26. So the books of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John were not written by Christians.


Most of those who believe as you say are what I call "Modern Christians", especially among Americans, but also among Catholics global-wide.  Modern Christianity stamped out all the other forms of Christianity with a lot of help from Emperor Constantine all the way through to the Spanish Inquisition.  That is where Christ became not only divine, but the concept of the Trinity originated.  They also chose which books of the Bible best supported their point of view.


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## Mickiel (May 20, 2016)

Divine.Wind said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > Well I am not a Christian, and I certainly disagree with much of their beliefs, but I agree with a few; just a few. I go along with what the bible teaches, *but I don't see the bible like Christians do;* they see a very limited salvation and they see this eternal hell misery. I see unlimited salvation and no hell for any human.
> ...




I agree 100 %, and so does history. With the exception of this fact, Modernday Christianity did not stamp out all other forms of Christianity; I think you could say " Most forms of it", and be more correct. Because one large branch of Christianity looms over the world, its largest branch, Roman Catholicism, they consider themselves Christians. There are 1.2 billion Roman Catholics in the world. That's a lot of people. Any Christian that is not Catholic, which will claim that Catholics are not Christians, are completely ignoring history. The first Christians were clearly Roman Catholics. They came out of Rome. They got their identity in Rome.


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## the_human_being (May 20, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> Divine.Wind said:
> 
> 
> > Mickiel said:
> ...



You are certainly painting with one wide brush there my friend. When you say "Christianity" and "Christians", you are placing them all into one tight little box. Are all Americans Republicans?  Are all Americans Democrats?  Christians are people and hold many different views just as Americans hold different views. I am a Christian and I believe hell is simply the grave, therefore I do not fit into your little box.


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## Mickiel (May 20, 2016)

[QUOTE="the_human_being, post: 14303152,

You are certainly painting with one wide brush there my friend. When you say "Christianity" and "Christians", you are placing them all into one tight little box. Are all Americans Republicans?  Are all Americans Democrats?  Christians are people and hold many different views just as Americans hold different views. I am a Christian and I believe hell is simply the grave, therefore I do not fit into your little box.[/QUOTE]


Well I agree, not all Christians believe the same thing; but I think its correct to say most of them do. And I admit I often paint them with a wide brush, because I think its a religion that is a majority, and the majority of them think alike,. in my view. In fact, I think satan has used Christianity to deceive this world. In Rev. 12:9, we see it  saying that satan has deceived the whole world; and none are excluded from that; its how I got deceived. Now what better way for him to deceive a world, than by using the world's largest religion, Christianity. There are 2.2 billion Christians on earth, there are 6.9 billion people on earth, nearly 1/3 are Christian, that's a wide brush.

satan knows one of the best ways he can deceive the people of earth, is to get at them through Christianity. Because most people trust that.


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## the_human_being (May 20, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> [QUOTE="the_human_being, post: 14303152,
> 
> You are certainly painting with one wide brush there my friend. When you say "Christianity" and "Christians", you are placing them all into one tight little box. Are all Americans Republicans?  Are all Americans Democrats?  Christians are people and hold many different views just as Americans hold different views. I am a Christian and I believe hell is simply the grave, therefore I do not fit into your little box.




Well I agree, not all Christians believe the same thing; but I think its correct to say most of them do. And I admit I often paint them with a wide brush, because I think its a religion that is a majority, and the majority of them think alike,. in my view. In fact, I think satan has used Christianity to deceive this world. In Rev. 12:9, we see it  saying that satan has deceived the whole world; and none are excluded from that; its how I got deceived. Now what better way for him to deceive a world, than by using the world's largest religion, Christianity. There are 2.2 billion Christians on earth, there are 6.9 billion people on earth, nearly 1/3 are Christian, that's a wide brush.

satan knows one of the best ways he can deceive the people of earth, is to get at them through Christianity. Because most people trust that.[/QUOTE]

People are often wrong. The majority is usually wrong. Satan is not in a place called Hell. Satan is god of this world and is walking about like a ravenous lion. Satan still has access to Heaven where he goes forth to accuse us. The idea that Satan has already been kicked out of Heaven is yet another error. People tend to believe the most absurd things because they do not study the Scriptures and tend to listen to too many pastors and preachers who teach false doctrine. I agree though, Satan's seat is in the church. He is using the false doctrines spouted by false ministers to lead millions astray.


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## Mickiel (May 20, 2016)

[QUOTE="the_human_being, post: one of the best ways he can deceive the people of earth, is to get at them through Christianity. Because most people trust that.[/QUOTE]

People are often wrong. The majority is usually wrong. Satan is not in a place called Hell. Satan is god of this world and is walking about like a ravenous lion. Satan still has access to Heaven where he goes forth to accuse us. The idea that Satan has already been kicked out of Heaven is yet another error. People tend to believe the most absurd things because they do not study the Scriptures and tend to listen to too many pastors and preachers who teach false doctrine. I agree though, Satan's seat is in the church. He is using the false doctrines spouted by false ministers to lead millions astray.[/QUOTE]

Well in my view, satan was never a citizen of heaven, and he only gets in because God wants to give him an audience. To talk to him, and I think to give him orders, among whateverelse. The devil was never a part of heaven to be kicked out of it anyway. And the devil most certainly uses the church's of this world, false religion may well be the first seal opened in Rev. 6:2 and unleashed on humanity; it would fit history for sure, and the coming future; so that seal, that horse, may well be false religion.  The horse is "White", so the world thinks its pure, the rider has a crown, so it has authority on earth,  it has a bow, which could be a weapon, and that might just be misuse of the bible. I don't really know, but I suspect.


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## Mickiel (May 21, 2016)

Why would a God even need a hell? Religion has tried to get away with teaching that he needs  it to punish people;God will punish; he will punish humans, but religion got greedy and exsessive  with their  interpretation of the punishment and took it too far by saying it will be eternal. They took a common sense thing that God will do and turned it into ignorance and insanity, like humans are prone to do.

This is what religion does, they take reason and pervert it. This is why science rebelled against the church. They tried to take science, own it and pervert it. Science used to be a part of the church, but they grew tired of " Church dictated science", rebelled, and that is what created " The Scientific revolution."


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## Mickiel (May 21, 2016)

Why would a God need a hell in eternity, when religion has created a hell on earth now? Why would God want us to live in hell , then die and go to another hell?


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## Mickiel (May 22, 2016)

Here is an interesting article on hell being a Christian hoax;

23 Minutes In Hell


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## BreezeWood (May 22, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> Here is an interesting article on hell being a Christian hoax;




even so, for all the damage they have inflicted there does seem to be something to their receiving just punishment for that and other hoax's - satan, their worship of J included that if not for eternity then for as long as it takes for them to change their tune - or just keep burning happily everafter .... . 

.


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## MarathonMike (May 22, 2016)

It seems the most logical explanation for hell is that if you are creating a religion and you want people to adopt it, you need to motivate them. What better way to motivate new followers than the concept of infinite punishment?


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## Mickiel (May 22, 2016)

MarathonMike said:


> It seems the most logical explanation for hell is that if you are creating a religion and you want people to adopt it, you need to motivate them. What better way to motivate new followers than the concept of infinite punishment?




That's true , its one of the reasons hell was created. In Pagan Rome, where Christianity originated, the early church began to desire more members, and they started pulling in a lot of people with pagan backrounds. Eventually they started absorbing some of the beliefs of these people ,and that' s how I think this hell concept crept in many churches.


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## IndependantAce (May 23, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> I have asked myself why a God would need a hell, ( and by hell I mean the Christian version of it). I mean here this great being of life and love , is said to have created a place of eternal misery? And something is just not right with that, because it makes no sense at all.


Makes no sense that there should be punishment for bad behavior?



> My view of God, and I don't know God, have never seen him or heard his voice; is a view that I know is already distorted by many things; but I view him as merciful, loving, kind, forgiving, longsuffering, all the things that this Christian hell is not.


How is letting evil go unpunished a "kind" thing? Sounds like a cowardly thing to me.



> Why would God make an eternal monument out of evil? For what? Why would such a being of great power of change, co-exist with misery forever? Why? I can't see it. I think something is seriously wrong with this myopic view of hell! The powers that exist which can seduce the consciousness of humanity into believing nonsense, is simply stunning.


As opposed to what nonsense; that right and wrong is meaningless and therefore Hitler is no "worse" than anyone else beyond pure subjectivity?

That's a nonsense far greater than hell.


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## Mudda (May 23, 2016)

God needs hell because he can't stand all the assholes he made.


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## Mickiel (May 23, 2016)

Jesus  must be considered when we try to understand what God will do; in Luke 9:56, Jesus teaching, "For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them." Jesus did not come here to create some kind of hell pit, he came here to convert men. We must consider that he got that from God himself. In 1 John 4:14, " We have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be " The Savior of the World!" God sent Jesus here to save the world, that means everyone, not just believers.

This renders hell obsolete.


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## Mudda (May 23, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> Jesus  must be considered when we try to understand what God will do; in Luke 9:56, Jesus teaching, "For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them." Jesus did not come here to create some kind of hell pit, he came here to convert men. We must consider that he got that from God himself. In 1 John 4:14, " We have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be " The Savior of the World!" God sent Jesus here to save the world, that means everyone, not just believers.
> 
> This renders hell obsolete.


You quote from a book that says that hell exists to say that hell doesn't exist. Brah, get with the plan.


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## Mickiel (May 23, 2016)

Mudda said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > Jesus  must be considered when we try to understand what God will do; in Luke 9:56, Jesus teaching, "For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them." Jesus did not come here to create some kind of hell pit, he came here to convert men. We must consider that he got that from God himself. In 1 John 4:14, " We have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be " The Savior of the World!" God sent Jesus here to save the world, that means everyone, not just believers.
> ...




Interesting, I think it is you who is uninformed and need to get to the new knowledge coming into play;

How many times is hell mentioned in the Bible?


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## Mudda (May 23, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> Mudda said:
> 
> 
> > Mickiel said:
> ...


The concept of hell is well defined in the bible. Plus it IS mentioned. Stop being so dishonest.
What Does the Bible Teach About Hell?


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## Mickiel (May 23, 2016)

Mudda said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > Mudda said:
> ...




I have a few more websites of my own. The hell in the bible's now is a misleading mistranslation, but you simply are not aware of that. So your using the knowledge that you have, and I understand that. We can only be conscious of, those things we are conscious of;

Bible Reality Check--A Case Against Hell


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## Mickiel (May 23, 2016)

Hey, why would a God need a hell, if he had common sense and the power to save?


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## hadit (May 23, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> > [QUOTE="hadit, post:
> > Down that road lies the "it doesn't matter how I live my life and if I totally reject all of God's love and mercy" failure.
> 
> 
> ...



Since you cited Revelation, I shall as well.  From Rev 20:



> 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.



And from Rev 21:



> 7 Those who are victorious will inherit all this, and I will be their God and they will be my children. 8 But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.



I mean, seriously.  Do you really need me to cite all the places where God rejects sinful man?


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## Mickiel (May 23, 2016)

[QUOTE="hadit, post: 14324721, 
I mean, seriously.  Do you really need me to cite all the places where God rejects sinful man?[/QUOTE]


Sure, why not; lets have them. Then I will respond each time with some verses of my own, such as Job 23:13, " But he is of one mind, and who can turn him? What his soul desires, THAT he DOES!" This is speaking about God. He does what he desires. Well, what does he desire? 1 Tim. 2:3-4, " For this is GOOD and ACCEPTABLE in the sight of God our Savior,  who Desires that ALL men be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth."

God desires ALL men to be saved, even those who reject him, and those he rejected. And God GETS what he desires. Now the believers in God may not see this as good and they may not accept unbelievers, but salvation is not in their hands.


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## hadit (May 23, 2016)

> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > [QUOTE="hadit, post: 14324721,
> ...



Oh, please do.  From Matthew 7:



> 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles? 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’



From 1 John:



> 16 For everything in the world—the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life—comes not from the Father but from the world.17 The world and its desires pass away, but whoever does the will of God lives forever.



There would be no reason whatsover to specify "whoever does the will of God" unless those who do not have a different fate.  Now, as I said, please do continue trying to convince me that the entire theme of the Bible to have your life changed and to live a certain way is meaningless because in the end God's going to ignore your rebellion against Him. Go ahead.


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## IsaacNewton (May 23, 2016)

There is a cartoon where it shows Jesus holding the face of a child and he says "I love you unconditionally my child, if you don't love me back I'll send you to a place to burn in horrific torture every second for a trillion years". 

Isn't this exactly the same thing people that keep someone else captive in their basement for two decades tells their prey? 

I think the whole "if you don't love me back you will suffer torture forever" thing is not only a 'condition' it is THE condition. It certainly removes the middle ground, either you are in or you are out. This is why most kristians refuse to believe things like evolution and an Earth that is billions of years old. The moment they do they are doomed to horrific torture by the all powerful benevolent deity who loves them unconditionally. 

^ Duly dripping with sarcasm


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## Mickiel (May 23, 2016)

hadit said:


> > Mickiel said:
> >
> >
> > > [QUOTE="hadit, post: 14324721,
> ...




Certainly, I'll do so with much pleasure. In Romans 5:18, "Therefore as by the offense of one , judgment came upon ALL men unto condemnation, even so,  by the righteousness of one man the FREE GIFT came upon ALL men unto the Justification of Life." All of mankind, good and evil, were condemned because of Adam, just as remarkable, those SAME ALL of humanity are saved by what Jesus did! Its incredible!

All the people that some believers in God are condemning, they are saved as a free token gesture by God himself. Its his gift;  and I understand there are a lot of Christians who want to take that free gift away and condemn humans; but its too late, Jesus already paid for their sins. No Christian can use the bible to condemn anyone.

I mean I know they are still going to try to condemn people, because its their thing to do that. But Jesus has done his salvation thing; and its a done deal.


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## Asclepias (May 23, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> I have asked myself why a God would need a hell, ( and by hell I mean the Christian version of it). I mean here this great being of life and love , is said to have created a place of eternal misery? And something is just not right with that, because it makes no sense at all. But a lot of things in religion make no sense, but religion rains on humanity, getting all of our consciousness wet in one manner or another.
> 
> My view of God, and I don't know God, have never seen him or heard his voice; is a view that I know is already distorted by many things; but I view him as merciful, loving, kind, forgiving, longsuffering, all the things that this Christian hell is not. So I don't think this hell is God's creation, I think the Christians created it. I think this eternal hell punishing is what Christians would do with unbelievers, not God. I think its moreso what the Christians want.
> 
> Why would God make an eternal monument out of evil? For what? Why would such a being of great power of change, co-exist with misery forever? Why? I can't see it. I think something is seriously wrong with this myopic view of hell! The powers that exist which can seduce the consciousness of humanity into believing nonsense, is simply stunning.


Hell exists for adults much like the boogey man exists for children. To enforce compliance.  Once a person is brainwashed they will self correct.


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## hadit (May 24, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> hadit said:
> 
> 
> > > Mickiel said:
> ...



Also from Romans: 





> 16 Therefore, the promise comes by faith, so that it may be by grace and may be guaranteed to all Abraham’s offspring—not only to those who are of the law but also to those who have the faith of Abraham. He is the father of us all.



The promise is for those who have the faith of Abraham.



> But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify.  22 This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe.



Again, TO ALL WHO BELIEVE.

John 3:  





> 3 Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again.”





> 5 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit.



Finally, since you cite Romans:

Chapter 2


> 5 But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God’s wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed. 6 God “will repay each person according to what they have done.”[a] 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8 But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. 9 There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; 10 but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 11 For God does not show favoritism.



In short, Scripture is clear that God WILL save those who trust and obey Him, but will reject those who do not.  It is also painfully obvious that the early Church leaders would have spent no time or effort evangelizing if there were no need to do so.  On the contrary, Jesus made it clear that they were to spread the good news, baptize new believers, and make disciples of them.  Again, why bother to do any of that if all are saved no matter what?[/quote]


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## Mickiel (May 24, 2016)

In Rom. 3:3, " For what if some did not believe? Would that unbelief make their faith without effect? No, God forbid!" You see because the salvation of humans is based on the faith of God in himself, not the humans faith. Religion has no faith in unbelievers, which is why they condemn them. Again Jesus in John 12:47, " And if any man hears my words and does not believe, I judge him NOT; for I came NOT to judge the world, but to save the world!" Again the real truth is that God and Christ will save the WORLD; everyone, not this limited condemning gospel that Christianity is teaching. They completely love us all, and have completely forgiven us all.

Religious people are teaching a limited salvation, because that is what they believe in. Its all they can see. Unbelief is not stopping the salvation of God.


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## hadit (May 24, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> In Rom. 3:3, " For what if some did not believe? Would that unbelief make their faith without effect? No, God forbid!" You see because the salvation of humans is based on the faith of God in himself, not the humans faith. Religion has no faith in unbelievers, which is why they condemn them. Again Jesus in John 12:47, " And if any man hears my words and does not believe, I judge him NOT; for I came NOT to judge the world, but to save the world!" Again the real truth is that God and Christ will save the WORLD; everyone, not this limited condemning gospel that Christianity is teaching. They completely love us all, and have completely forgiven us all.
> 
> Religious people are teaching a limited salvation, because that is what they believe in. Its all they can see. Unbelief is not stopping the salvation of God.


1.  You are perverting the plain meaning of that passage in Romans.  Here is the context:



> 3 What advantage, then, is there in being a Jew, or what value is there in circumcision? 2 Much in every way! First of all, the Jews have been entrusted with the very words of God.
> 
> 3 What if some were unfaithful? Will their unfaithfulness nullify God’s faithfulness? 4 Not at all! Let God be true, and every human being a liar. As it is written:
> 
> ...



You should be able to easily see that the Scripture clearly refers to the Jews, being given that great blessing in the Word of God, cannot nullify God's faithfulness with their unfaithfulness.  IOW, the messenger cannot destroy the message.  Note that, again, God being the judge and judging is referenced.  Your "theology" requires that God NOT be judge, but simply ignore every person's free choice to reject Him.  That is not Biblical, as I have demonstrated multiple times.  You have to deal with God's judgement of mankind.

You ignore things like this, from Rev 20:


> 11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.


  If, as you maintain, all will be saved, this cannot happen.


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## Mickiel (May 24, 2016)

See religions are primed to condemn a lot of people, because THEY must see humans punished harshly; THEY NEED to see unbelievers made to pay, for what Christ has already paid the price for. Many believers themselves have become the biggest roadblock to unbelievers. Again Jesus in Matt. 23:13, " For woe unto you Scribes and Pharisees, ( or believers),  for you " Shut up the Kingdom from men." Jesus meant they were teaching things that limit his Kingdom from people. These believers, ( because the Scribes and Pharisees were believers in God),  had a condemning mindset, they were so self righteous, they  could see themselves in the Kingdom, and see others out.

And notice verse 15, a stunning revelation from Jesus that these believers would take the converts from their churches and make them " Twice the child of hell than they were." Teaching them this eternal hell punishing mess.


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## hadit (May 24, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> See religions are primed to condemn a lot of people, because THEY must see humans punished harshly; THEY NEED to see unbelievers made to pay, for what Christ has already paid the price for. Many believers themselves have become the biggest roadblock to unbelievers. Again Jesus in Matt. 23:13, " For woe unto you Scribes and Pharisees, ( or believers),  for you " Shut up the Kingdom from men." Jesus meant they were teaching things that limit his Kingdom from people. These believers, ( because the Scribes and Pharisees were believers in God),  had a condemning mindset, they were so self righteous, they  could see themselves in the Kingdom, and see others out.
> 
> And notice verse 15, a stunning revelation from Jesus that these believers would take the converts from their churches and make them " Twice the child of hell than they were." Teaching them this eternal hell punishing mess.


Dude, again you're ignoring the clear import of Scripture that God is judge and will judge mankind.  No one takes joy in the condemnation of others. Think about what you're saying.  You're saying that Jesus' commandments to take His Gospel to the world doesn't matter, that His command to make disciples of all people doesn't matter.  Why would it, if there is no eternal consequence for sin?  You have to deal with things like the Great White Throne judgement, the clear passages where people ARE thrown into the lake of fire, etc, before you can make that claim.  Thus far, you've ignored them.


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## Mickiel (May 24, 2016)

hadit said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > 3 What if some were unfaithful? Will their unfaithfulness nullify God’s faithfulness? 4 Not at all! Let God be tru
> ...





hadit said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > See religions are primed to condemn a lot of people, because THEY must see humans punished harshly; THEY NEED to see unbelievers made to pay, for what Christ has already paid the price for. Many believers themselves have become the biggest roadblock to unbelievers. Again Jesus in Matt. 23:13, " For woe unto you Scribes and Pharisees, ( or believers),  for you " Shut up the Kingdom from men." Jesus meant they were teaching things that limit his Kingdom from people. These believers, ( because the Scribes and Pharisees were believers in God),  had a condemning mindset, they were so self righteous, they  could see themselves in the Kingdom, and see others out.
> ...




I am not ignoring scripture, I am ignoring your view of it, because I hold to a totally differing view. You salvation sight is sorely limited. I disagree that God will judge the world. John 5:22, " For the Father Judges no man, but has given all judgment to the Son." God is NOT going to judge humans. Now, Jesus clearly taught in John 12:47 that he came not to judge humanity. Your judgment mentality was created by religion, not by the bible.


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## hobelim (May 24, 2016)

Asclepias said:


> Hell exists for adults much like the boogey man exists for children.




The boogey man is real. Many children who are oblivious to the danger get snatched up by them to this day.

And hell is real. The evidence is overwhelming even all over these boards.

If you don't believe me, set aside rational thought for a moment and "just believe"  that a three in one god diddled a virgin to father himself so that he could become fully human without a human father and say things that no one understood only to be despised and rejected, tortured and crucified because he loved the roman empire so much.

In no time flat you will lose your mind and descend into the netherworld, the realm of the dead, where you will be tormented day and night by confusion and saying and doing stupid things that injure yourself and the people you love for the rest of your days.

Unfortunately even then you probably won't believe that hell exists or you'll think that it is some make believe superstition of the past. You'll be so far gone that you will think you were saved.


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## Mickiel (May 24, 2016)

There is no such thing as a boogy man, and there is no such thing as the hell Christians describe and teach. Its all traditional garbage and it insults the love of God. It insults the mind of God, because its insanity to teach eternal punishing. Its teaching that God is just as insane as human religion.


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## koshergrl (May 24, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> I have asked myself why a God would need a hell, ( and by hell I mean the Christian version of it). I mean here this great being of life and love , is said to have created a place of eternal misery? And something is just not right with that, because it makes no sense at all. But a lot of things in religion make no sense, but religion rains on humanity, getting all of our consciousness wet in one manner or another.
> 
> My view of God, and I don't know God, have never seen him or heard his voice; is a view that I know is already distorted by many things; but I view him as merciful, loving, kind, forgiving, longsuffering, all the things that this Christian hell is not. So I don't think this hell is God's creation, I think the Christians created it. I think this eternal hell punishing is what Christians would do with unbelievers, not God. I think its moreso what the Christians want.
> 
> Why would God make an eternal monument out of evil? For what? Why would such a being of great power of change, co-exist with misery forever? Why? I can't see it. I think something is seriously wrong with this myopic view of hell! The powers that exist which can seduce the consciousness of humanity into believing nonsense, is simply stunning.


If God is to be righteous, then there has to be a place for unrighteousness to reside.

That place is hell.


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## Mickiel (May 24, 2016)

koshergrl said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > I have asked myself why a God would need a hell, ( and by hell I mean the Christian version of it). I mean here this great being of life and love , is said to have created a place of eternal misery? And something is just not right with that, because it makes no sense at all. But a lot of things in religion make no sense, but religion rains on humanity, getting all of our consciousness wet in one manner or another.
> ...




If God be righteous, then everything humans say about him has to be ignored; because that's how unrighteous opinions start.


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## koshergrl (May 24, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> koshergrl said:
> 
> 
> > Mickiel said:
> ...



Nonsense.


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## Mickiel (May 24, 2016)

koshergrl said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > koshergrl said:
> ...




It may be nonsense in your view, but in my view, I would speculate that at least 50% of false information about  God originates from human opinion. The rest from satan. False teaching from religious people is how most people are deceived.


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## koshergrl (May 24, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> koshergrl said:
> 
> 
> > Mickiel said:
> ...


Let's have an example, if you don't mind.

I rather agree, except that truly religious (Christian) people don't spread false information. The people who claim to be *religious* and spread false information are either not religious at all and are simply con artists, or they are atheists or actively anti-Christian bigots who pretend to have a history in the church and a knowledge of scripture..that they do not have. People like Care4All, who portrayed herself as a Catholic during her early days on this board, in order to lend teeth to her pro-abortion arguments.


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## Mickiel (May 24, 2016)

koshergrl said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > koshergrl said:
> ...




I totally disagree with you. In Rev. 12:9, satan deceives the whole world. Stunning, the whole world. In my view, one of the ways he has done that, is by using Christianity. There are 2.8 billion Christian's, and 6.9 billion people, that's one third of humanity right there. A perfect way to deceive the whole earth, use 1/3 of its religious people to help you deceive.


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## koshergrl (May 24, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> koshergrl said:
> 
> 
> > Mickiel said:
> ...


You haven't provided me with an example that supports your comment.


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## Mickiel (May 25, 2016)

koshergrl said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > koshergrl said:
> ...




Here are a few biblical examples; Rev. 6:2, the first seal is unleashed on humanity, which in my view is false religion. The rider on a " White horse", so the world thinks this is pure. The rider has a crown, or authority, just like religion. The rider has a bow, or a weapon, which I think may be a bible, and religion misuses that.

Or we can look at examples of actual churches of God and look at what Jesus saw in these people OF HIS! Rev. 2:4, Jesus had things against the church of Ephesus. In Rev. 2:15 this church of God in Pergamos is doing things that Jesus hates!  In 2:20 Jesus has things against his church in Thyatira. In Rev. 3: 16-20 Jesus has things against HIS church in Laodicea, in verse 20 he is standing at their door and knocking; he is on the outside!

Religious people in God's own church spreading lies and deception! Its right there in the book of Revelations for all to see.


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## Mickiel (May 25, 2016)

More of religious believers deceiving  people or they themselves being deceived;
Matt. 7:22-23, again Jesus teaching; "many will say to me in that day, Lord, have we not prophesied  in your name? And in your name cast out devils? And in your name done wonderful works? But I will tell them that I never knew them." These are real serious believers in Christ, they did good works and preached in Jesus name. But they had problems that they were not aware of, ( a deceived person does not know they are deceived). These believers then infected others with their deception, a false interpretation of scripture being spread by believers in God, or you can say Christians. Jesus said in Matt. 8 : 12 that even " The children of the Kingdom will be cast out!" Children of the Kingdom means converted believers in God. In my view it does.

In Rev. 13:11-18 , one of the beast it describes had two horns " Like a Lamb". But it spoke like a dragon! That means it looked like a converted believer in God, but it spoke deception. It did great wonders on the earth, ( like healing people in these large meetings, collecting large sums of money and feeding the poor, building these great church buildings, having very large giant memberships, ect...) in verse 14 it clearly states that they deceived people on the earth by means of " Miracles"; these are RELIGIOUS deceptions, a miracle is a religious event! Mostly done by religious leaders, pastors and evangelist.

These religious believers, or Christians, are trying to take the Kingdom of God by force of their own will; that is the " Violence" spoken of in Matt. 11:12; the Kingdom of God suffers violence from its own residents! Because they are stubborn and hard headed, teaching this free will doctrine, that the Kingdom is a place that only those who choose to be there, will be there; a stunning deception.


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## Mickiel (May 26, 2016)

Why would a God need a hell, when he has a heaven?


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## hobelim (May 26, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> Why would a God need a hell, when he has a heaven?




Why are wild animals kept in a cage when the city has lots of public parks and open spaces?

Hell is the realm where the dead are kept until the final awakening.


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## Mickiel (May 26, 2016)

Even the grave is but a temporary thing with God; this incredible being really does not need death in his eternity.

Its just an amazing thing to consider.


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## Mickiel (May 26, 2016)

Why would a God of endless love, mercy and grace, allow Christianity to define terms for him? Remember, eternal punishing hell is what Christians would do with unbelievers, not God.


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## Mickiel (May 26, 2016)

I think when we consider God, the question " Why" just naturally is going to surface a lot. Because God is so mysterious. So unknown and hard to figure out. Why is he not showing himself? Why is he allowing so much evil? Why did he allow religion to mess up so much of humanity's history?

Why?

And I really don't know myself, I can only offer speculations. I can only guess man. I wish I did know God, or we could have a serious conversation where I could actually hear his voice. Its weird; its hard on humanity, so I understand all the frustration pointed at God, from Atheist and unbelievers; this is an enigmatic equation; its a book still being written.


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## Mickiel (May 27, 2016)

Why would a myth like eternal hell, cause more human hardship and concern than a truth would? Because its human nature to believe myths and fables, that's why some Atheist believe that apes can speak. Our consciousness gets seared and bent on lies. Our hope gets perverted and lies seem like truth.


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## Mudda (May 27, 2016)

God needs a hell because he can't control his creations.


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## Mickiel (May 27, 2016)

Mudda said:


> God needs a hell because he can't control his creations.




I totally disagree, I have never known anyone in history that God could not control. I have never known anything to happen, that God did not want to happen. The affairs and doings of men are meaningless to God. Notice Isaiah 40:17, " All nations before him are as nothing, they are counted by him as " LESS than nothing and meaningless."

God could careless about controlling humans.


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## Mudda (May 27, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> Mudda said:
> 
> 
> > God needs a hell because he can't control his creations.
> ...


Then why judge them when they die? And those that didn't obey God go to hell.


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## Mickiel (May 27, 2016)

Mudda said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > Mudda said:
> ...




You have been misinformed, God will not judge any human. Notice that in John 5:22, " The Father judges no man." No human is going to the mythical Christian hell, you have been misinformed a second time. In Isaiah 45:23 God swears that ALL humans will bow and submit to him. And I believe that. Our future with God has absolutely nothing to do with obedience to him. Or belief in him; God will have his way.

And nothing can stop him.


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## Mudda (May 27, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> Mudda said:
> 
> 
> > Mickiel said:
> ...


You're the one who is misinformed. Hell exists. God judges. God makes deformed babies.


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## Mickiel (May 27, 2016)

Hell is simply the grave, and every baby born deformed, God will give them a whole new better existence, its not end of story, its only as far as you can see;  he will even give you a new mind- one that does not find fault in everything.


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## Steven_R (May 27, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> I have asked myself why a God would need a hell, ( and by hell I mean the Christian version of it). I mean here this great being of life and love , is said to have created a place of eternal misery? And something is just not right with that, because it makes no sense at all. But a lot of things in religion make no sense, but religion rains on humanity, getting all of our consciousness wet in one manner or another.
> 
> My view of God, and I don't know God, have never seen him or heard his voice; is a view that I know is already distorted by many things; but I view him as merciful, loving, kind, forgiving, longsuffering, all the things that this Christian hell is not. So I don't think this hell is God's creation, I think the Christians created it. I think this eternal hell punishing is what Christians would do with unbelievers, not God. I think its moreso what the Christians want.
> 
> Why would God make an eternal monument out of evil? For what? Why would such a being of great power of change, co-exist with misery forever? Why? I can't see it. I think something is seriously wrong with this myopic view of hell! The powers that exist which can seduce the consciousness of humanity into believing nonsense, is simply stunning.



How else would you keep the flock in line if you can't threaten them with eternal torment?


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## Steven_R (May 27, 2016)

Mudda said:


> You're the one who is misinformed. Hell exists. God judges. God makes deformed babies.



God works in mysterious, dickish ways.


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## HaShev (May 27, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> I have asked myself why a God would need a hell, ( and by hell I mean the Christian version of it). I mean here this great being of life and love , is said to have created a place of eternal misery? And something is just not right with that, because it makes no sense at all. But a lot of things in religion make no sense, but religion rains on humanity, getting all of our consciousness wet in one manner or another.
> 
> My view of God, and I don't know God, have never seen him or heard his voice; is a view that I know is already distorted by many things; but I view him as merciful, loving, kind, forgiving, longsuffering, all the things that this Christian hell is not. So I don't think this hell is God's creation, I think the Christians created it. I think this eternal hell punishing is what Christians would do with unbelievers, not God. I think its moreso what the Christians want.
> 
> Why would God make an eternal monument out of evil? For what? Why would such a being of great power of change, co-exist with misery forever? Why? I can't see it. I think something is seriously wrong with this myopic view of hell! The powers that exist which can seduce the consciousness of humanity into believing nonsense, is simply stunning.



The hell concept is reinvented and twisting of the description of a world we leave ourselves when we go opposite that Essence of life.
They do this to create submission of it's initiates to give tithes (pay their tax to Rome) and fight for their kings in exchange for protection from horrors of hell & promises or rewards in heaven.  Their ideology as always backfired and ended up causing that description of hell to fruition.  Everytime you see war torn areas or protest erruptions with burning trash rubble that is what the Hebrews described as Gehinnom-outside the kingdom walls burning trash dump.


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## Mickiel (May 27, 2016)

Steven_R said:


> Mudda said:
> 
> 
> > You're the one who is misinformed. Hell exists. God judges. God makes deformed babies.
> ...




Well he certainly created the male and female genitalia; brilliant creations in my view.


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## Mickiel (May 27, 2016)

HaShev said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > I have asked myself why a God would need a hell, ( and by hell I mean the Christian version of it). I mean here this great being of life and love , is said to have created a place of eternal misery? And something is just not right with that, because it makes no sense at all. But a lot of things in religion make no sense, but religion rains on humanity, getting all of our consciousness wet in one manner or another.
> ...




Very well put.


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## IndependantAce (May 27, 2016)

Deformity is the work of Satan, most illness in the world is the result of man tampering with natural law; in a perfect state of nature there would likely be no disease or deformity; most cures for example that man has invented has only been to fix the diseases they caused by not respecting nature.

Unfortunately since many worship Satan without realizing it, they believe they're "entitled" to material perfection from God without having to do anything to earn it, much as many welfare recipients do a handout. Much as Satan believed he was entitled to God's throne, and Adam and Eve did the forbidden knowledge.


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## Yarddog (May 27, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> I have asked myself why a God would need a hell, ( and by hell I mean the Christian version of it). I mean here this great being of life and love , is said to have created a place of eternal misery? And something is just not right with that, because it makes no sense at all. But a lot of things in religion make no sense, but religion rains on humanity, getting all of our consciousness wet in one manner or another.
> 
> My view of God, and I don't know God, have never seen him or heard his voice; is a view that I know is already distorted by many things; but I view him as merciful, loving, kind, forgiving, longsuffering, all the things that this Christian hell is not. So I don't think this hell is God's creation, I think the Christians created it. I think this eternal hell punishing is what Christians would do with unbelievers, not God. I think its moreso what the Christians want.
> 
> Why would God make an eternal monument out of evil? For what? Why would such a being of great power of change, co-exist with misery forever? Why? I can't see it. I think something is seriously wrong with this myopic view of hell! The powers that exist which can seduce the consciousness of humanity into believing nonsense, is simply stunning.




No idea,   it could be just made up, or it could be a natural law which we do not understand, like quantum physics


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## Mickiel (May 27, 2016)

IndependantAce said:


> Deformity is the work of Satan, most illness in the world is the result of man tampering with natural law; in a perfect state of nature there would likely be no disease or deformity; most cures for example that man has invented has only been to fix the diseases they caused by not respecting nature.
> 
> Unfortunately since many worship Satan without realizing it, they believe they're "entitled" to material perfection from God without having to do anything to earn it, much as many welfare recipients do a handout. Much as Satan believed he was entitled to God's throne, and Adam and Eve did the forbidden knowledge.



satan could not deform  a human without the permission of God. So God is involved. In Rom. 13:1 we can even see that God ordained satan; it states that God ordains the powers that be; satan certainly is a power that be.


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## IndependantAce (May 27, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> IndependantAce said:
> 
> 
> > Deformity is the work of Satan, most illness in the world is the result of man tampering with natural law; in a perfect state of nature there would likely be no disease or deformity; most cures for example that man has invented has only been to fix the diseases they caused by not respecting nature.
> ...


Why should God remove free will? If people fear religion because "it controls people" why would they demand that a God force others into compliance?


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## Mickiel (May 27, 2016)

IndependantAce said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > IndependantAce said:
> ...



I don't believe in free will, its an overblown illusion. In order for a human to have free will, that means their will would have to  be uninfluenced by any outside forces,. which is impossible. God is called the Alpha and Omega, the word states that in him we live, move and have our being; in other words, he is the complete cycle of our lives. Free will is a Christian deception. In Jer. 10:23, " O Lord, I know that the way of man is not in himself, it is NOT in man who walks to direct his own steps."


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## Mickiel (May 27, 2016)

Why would God need an eternal hell, when in Rev. 21:4 he promised to wipe away all tears from our eyes, and he said there will be " No More" death,  sorrow, crying or pain, all those things will " Pass Away!"

Listen, IF the Christian version of hell were true, then this promise from God would be a lie, because that hell will always have pain, crying and sorrow. No, God does not need that hell, nor does he need the Christian knowledge that teaches it to this world.


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## hobelim (May 28, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> Why would God need an eternal hell, when in Rev. 21:4 he promised to wipe away all tears from our eyes, and he said there will be " No More" death,  sorrow, crying or pain, all those things will " Pass Away!"
> 
> Listen, IF the Christian version of hell were true, then this promise from God would be a lie, because that hell will always have pain, crying and sorrow. No, God does not need that hell, nor does he need the Christian knowledge that teaches it to this world.





Its actually very simple.

If the promise for obedience to the law is life in the sanctuary of God and the consequence and burden for failure to comply with the law is death and hell then there will be no more death or hell whenever people learn the right way to understand and comply with the laws demands that leads to the fulfillment of that promise of life with God on earth.


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## Mickiel (May 28, 2016)

Let me show you a prophecy from Christ that cancels out the Christian hell. Matt. 24:21, " For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world, no, NOR SHALL EVER BE!" Now this is Jesus describing this tribulation to be the worse thing to ever happen to humanity, or ever will happen to them. Now, IF eternal hell punishing were true, NOTHING could possibly be worse than that; nothing!

For those of you who see, there you have it yet again.


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## Dajjal (May 28, 2016)

I do not get my opinions from the bible, which I consider to be largely Jewish myths. I get my views directly from the spirit world. I attended many trance lectures by the medium Ursula Roberts at the spiritualist association in London during the 1970's. She, or her spirit guide that spoke through her, said there is no lasting hell, and we reincarnate until reaching enlightenment.
See the link below for some of her teachings.
Wisdom of Ramadahn


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## Mickiel (May 28, 2016)

I hold no interest in mediums and spiritualist; I don't trust them at all.


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## hobelim (May 28, 2016)

Dajjal said:


> I do not get my opinions from the bible, which I consider to be largely Jewish myths. I get my views directly from the spirit world. I attended many trance lectures by the medium Ursula Roberts at the spiritualist association in London during the 1970's. She, or her spirit guide that spoke through her, said there is no lasting hell, and we reincarnate until reaching enlightenment.
> See the link below for some of her teachings.
> Wisdom of Ramadahn



If a person does not learn to choose what is good and reject evil by the time they are 8, 12, 18, 30, 40, 50, 80, or even 100 years old they most likely will never choose what is good even if they could live forever.

How long do you hang on to something that is broken or useless before throwing it in the trash?


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## Dajjal (May 28, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> I hold no interest in mediums and spiritualist; I don't trust them at all.



You might just as well, not trust the authors of the bible either. Moses may never even have existed, and I certainly do not believe in the parting of the red sea, and other Jewish myths.
The same can be said of Jesus too, he may have been a fictional character. But I have to say that spiritualists say he did exist and was an example to us all. I have also heard mediums mention Buddha as a spiritual master.
However I have never heard any medium talk of Muhammad.


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## Mickiel (May 28, 2016)

Dajjal said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > I hold no interest in mediums and spiritualist; I don't trust them at all.
> ...




I trust the bible, but I do not believe its 100 % accurate or without error. I would just rather depend on my own mind, than some medium. But I mean, you have to go where you are led; to each his own. I walk alone in my view. I trust my own mind above others.


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## Campbell (May 29, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> I have asked myself why a God would need a hell, ( and by hell I mean the Christian version of it). I mean here this great being of life and love , is said to have created a place of eternal misery? And something is just not right with that, because it makes no sense at all. But a lot of things in religion make no sense, but religion rains on humanity, getting all of our consciousness wet in one manner or another.
> 
> My view of God, and I don't know God, have never seen him or heard his voice; is a view that I know is already distorted by many things; but I view him as merciful, loving, kind, forgiving, longsuffering, all the things that this Christian hell is not. So I don't think this hell is God's creation, I think the Christians created it. I think this eternal hell punishing is what Christians would do with unbelievers, not God. I think its moreso what the Christians want.
> 
> Why would God make an eternal monument out of evil? For what? Why would such a being of great power of change, co-exist with misery forever? Why? I can't see it. I think something is seriously wrong with this myopic view of hell! The powers that exist which can seduce the consciousness of humanity into believing nonsense, is simply stunning.



"I cannot imagine a God who rewards and punishes the objects of his creation, whose purposes are modeled after our own--a God, in short, who is but a reflection of human frailty. Neither can I believe that the individual survives the death of his body, although feeble souls harbor such thoughts through fear or ridiculous egotism."
~Dr. Albert Einstein~  (excerpt from his obituary)

"And the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter. But we may hope that the dawn of reason and freedom of thought in these United States will do away all this artificial scaffolding."
~Thomas Jefferson~ (excerpt from a letter to John Adams)


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## Mickiel (May 29, 2016)

Why would God need a hell;

the world needs his love, not his anger.


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## Penelope (May 29, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> Dajjal said:
> 
> 
> > Mickiel said:
> ...



Then you believe in spiritualist, Abraham, Moses, Jerimiah, Daniel, Joseph, Ezekiel, the few Isaiah's, and the maj. of todays preachers, those who say God said are all spiritualists.


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## Mickiel (May 29, 2016)

Penelope said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > Dajjal said:
> ...




I don't believe in new age Spiritualist; but I believe in spirituality. You don't have to be famous to be spiritual. I don't believe in any preachers of today. None of them.


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## Penelope (May 29, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> Penelope said:
> 
> 
> > Mickiel said:
> ...



So you only believe the people in the bible were spiritualist.  Urim and Thummim come to mind.  The holy spirit is no longer active, good to know.


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## Divine Wind (May 29, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> If God be righteous, then everything humans say about him has to be ignored; because that's how unrighteous opinions start.


Mostly agreed, but I'd qualify it with "...most everything humans say" is to be ignored.  

God doesn't need Hell nor would an all merciful God condemn anyone to Hell.  Not even Lucifer.  Hell is a choice; the choice to be away from God.


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## Mickiel (May 29, 2016)

Penelope said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > Penelope said:
> ...




Well in my view of things, the Holy Spirit is nowhere near as active in people as it used to be; but now I could be wrong. If its active, then its only opening a few people to the truth, I don't think any human in our age have the Spirit inside of them permanently. I don't believe God has called out a church in years, not since Christ was here. All the churches of God now, are deceived in my view, perverted and off track. The next church of God to be called out and given his spirit, I don't believe they are here yet. I mean some of them may be alive, but the next church called out will be like a light on a hill, the whole world will know they are called of God. They will have no leaders, the Holy Spirit will lead them.

There is no church like that now on earth; none that I am aware of. I do hope I live to see them; I think they will be quite something.


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## Mickiel (May 29, 2016)

Divine.Wind said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > If God be righteous, then everything humans say about him has to be ignored; because that's how unrighteous opinions start.
> ...




Hell is not a choice, its the grave. All other versions of hell are myths.

Now as far as satan, I do think God will condemn him. I do not view satan as this " Lucifer character "; Lucifer is not the devil, its just another Christian perversion. I personally think God will just " Will satan and his demons out of existence."


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## Divine Wind (May 29, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> Hell is not a choice, its the grave. All other versions of hell are myths....


You are free to believe in a wrathful, vengeful God.  I believe such a power to be almighty and all merciful.


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## Mickiel (May 29, 2016)

Divine.Wind said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > Hell is not a choice, its the grave. All other versions of hell are myths....
> ...





I believe the wrath of God is his reaction  to sin, not to people. I do think he will take revenge. I also believe he is merciful, loving, good,  and forgiving.


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## Divine Wind (May 29, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> Divine.Wind said:
> 
> 
> > Mickiel said:
> ...


Your words conflict each other.  God cannot be simultaneously all merciful and wrathful or vengeful. In fact, giving God the qualities of base negative emotions like anger or hate demeans God by reducing God to the human level.  Human are often weakened _because_ of our emotions.


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## LittleNipper (May 29, 2016)

Matthew 7:13-28

13 “Go in through the narrow gate; for the gate that leads to destruction is wide and the road broad, and many travel it; 14 but it is a narrow gate and a hard road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

15 “Beware of the false prophets! They come to you wearing sheep’s clothing, but underneath they are hungry wolves! 16 You will recognize them by their fruit. Can people pick grapes from thorn bushes, or figs from thistles? 17 Likewise, every healthy tree produces good fruit, but a poor tree produces bad fruit. 18 A healthy tree cannot bear bad fruit, or a poor tree good fruit. 19 Any tree that does not produce good fruit is cut down and thrown in the fire! 20 So you will recognize them by their fruit.

21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord!’ will enter the Kingdom of Heaven, only those who do what my Father in heaven wants. 22 On that Day, many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord! Didn’t we prophesy in your name? Didn’t we expel demons in your name? Didn’t we perform many miracles in your name?’ 23 Then I will tell them to their faces, ‘I never knew you! *Get away from me, you workers of lawlessness*!’

24 “So, everyone who hears these words of mine and acts on them will be like a sensible man who built his house on bedrock. 25 The rain fell, the rivers flooded, the winds blew and beat against that house, but it didn’t collapse, because its foundation was on rock. 26 But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not act on them will be like a stupid man who built his house on sand. 27 The rain fell, the rivers flooded, the wind blew and beat against that house, and it collapsed — and its collapse was horrendous!”

28 When Yeshua had finished saying these things, the crowds were amazed at the way he taught, 29 for he was not instructing them like their _Torah_-teachers but as one who had authority himself.


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## Vigilante (May 29, 2016)

If there is anything to organized religion, this agnostic feels real good about this....


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## Mickiel (May 30, 2016)

If one of the fruits of the spirit is gentleness, why would a God need a hell?


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## Mickiel (May 30, 2016)

If religion can get the masses to swallow their foolish eternal hell doctrine, just think how powerful they really are; able to get into the average human consciousness and plant suggestions that become historical physcology .


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## Mickiel (May 31, 2016)

I think the real hidden message to humanity, is that we all; all of us, will be with this Great God in his eternity forever! And that this is our real destiny which cannot be stopped; and its free, none of the charges religion puts on it apply.


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## Mickiel (Jun 2, 2016)

Why would God need a hell, why would he magnify the perversions of religion?


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## hadit (Jun 2, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> hadit said:
> 
> 
> > Mickiel said:
> ...


Like I said, you're ignoring the very Scripture you quote.  In fact, the very next verse.  From John 12:



> 47 “If anyone hears my words but does not keep them, I do not judge that person. For I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world. 48 There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; the very words I have spoken will condemn them at the last day.



Now, if no one will be condemned, why did Jesus say they WILL be condemned?


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## hadit (Jun 2, 2016)

koshergrl said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > I have asked myself why a God would need a hell, ( and by hell I mean the Christian version of it). I mean here this great being of life and love , is said to have created a place of eternal misery? And something is just not right with that, because it makes no sense at all. But a lot of things in religion make no sense, but religion rains on humanity, getting all of our consciousness wet in one manner or another.
> ...


That is true.  If there is to a choice, there have to be consequences.  Otherwise, no choice.  We all ultimately get what we desire, eternity with God, or without.  What gets in the way for a lot of people is they want the rewards of being with God while still rebelling against Him.


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## hobelim (Jun 2, 2016)

hadit said:


> koshergrl said:
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If heaven is an eternal sphere of all that is good, life, love, understanding, peace, joy, etc., then hell would be a lower realm of conscious existence defined by the absence of all that is good, the absence of life, love, understanding, peace, joy, etc.

Its not a place for the unrighteous it a state of confusion for failing to stand guard over the purity of ones own mind and adopting irrational beliefs and degrading practices that distort and pervert perception of actual reality making rational thought, understanding and peace impossible.

Once a person departs from the land of rational thought becomes confused and loses their mind with what can they get it back?


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## Mickiel (Jun 2, 2016)

There are no choices with God. We had no choice with being alive , there is no choice with death; there is no choice in salvation; we all make it; period.


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## hadit (Jun 2, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> There are no choices with God. We had no choice with being alive , there is no choice with death; there is no choice in salvation; we all make it; period.


Not according to Scripture, we don't.


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## Mickiel (Jun 2, 2016)

hadit said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > There are no choices with God. We had no choice with being alive , there is no choice with death; there is no choice in salvation; we all make it; period.
> ...




We all have sinned, but all that sin is laid on Christ, Is. 53:6. In Is. 45:23 God swears to save everyone; no religion can stop him.


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## hadit (Jun 3, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> hadit said:
> 
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You still haven't dealt with all those Scriptures I posted where God clearly rejects people.  Until you do that, you won't convince anyone.

Answer this one.  If there is no need to do so, why are we commanded to repent and be baptized?


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## hobelim (Jun 3, 2016)

hadit said:


> Mickiel said:
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> > hadit said:
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Even Jesus said that no one is lost but the one consigned to destruction because scripture must be fulfilled.

That potentially could add up to a lot of people.


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## hadit (Jun 3, 2016)

hobelim said:


> hadit said:
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> > Mickiel said:
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Would you be referring to this passage in John 17?



> 11 I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of[a] your name, the name you gave me, so that they may be one as we are one. 12 While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by that name you gave me. None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled.
> 
> 13 “I am coming to you now, but I say these things while I am still in the world, so that they may have the full measure of my joy within them.



I do believe He was referring to His disciples, and the one that was lost was Judas.


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## hobelim (Jun 3, 2016)

hadit said:


> hobelim said:
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Yes, and there is a Judas in every bunch........

The point being that the one doomed to destruction is doomed to destruction because scripture must be fulfilled which does not just apply to only Judas.

"do this and you will live, do that and you will surely die."


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## Mickiel (Jun 4, 2016)

hadit said:


> hobelim said:
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T have never read a scripture that claims Judas will not be saved.


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## Mickiel (Jun 4, 2016)

There are so many people, so many religions that always seek to find ways to condemn people to some hell  to some place that God will not be; its habitual short sighted judgmental learned behavior. In Luke 2:30, " For my eyes have seen your salvation." Its a wonderful freeing thing for a human to finally see the salvation of God; I have seen a peek of it.

Behold; Luke 3:6, " And ALL flesh shall see the salvation of God!"

All of us are destined to see it! And God is not the kind of being to show you something that you cannot have. Don't you believe that about him.


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## hobelim (Jun 5, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> There are so many people, so many religions that always seek to find ways to condemn people to some hell  to some place that God will not be; its habitual short sighted judgmental learned behavior. In Luke 2:30, " For my eyes have seen your salvation." Its a wonderful freeing thing for a human to finally see the salvation of God; I have seen a peek of it.
> 
> Behold; Luke 3:6, " And ALL flesh shall see the salvation of God!"
> 
> All of us are destined to see it! And God is not the kind of being to show you something that you cannot have. Don't you believe that about him.





"Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the one to come."  Matthew 12:32


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## Mickiel (Jun 5, 2016)

hobelim said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > There are so many people, so many religions that always seek to find ways to condemn people to some hell  to some place that God will not be; its habitual short sighted judgmental learned behavior. In Luke 2:30, " For my eyes have seen your salvation." Its a wonderful freeing thing for a human to finally see the salvation of God; I have seen a peek of it.
> ...




Mark 3:28 , again Jesus teaching, " ALL sins and blasphemies shall be forgiven men." All of them, in 1 John 3:5 Jesus took all sin away, no Christian can bring any of them back and try to condemn someone.

Now this so called " unforgivable sin", sinning against the Holy Spirit, there are exactly zero example of just how to do that given in scripture; so in my view, its impossible for a person to do it.

Your just going to have to find another way to condemn.


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## Mickiel (Jun 5, 2016)

The sick concept of eternal hell punishing is just religious mans effort to try and make God seem as sick as man.


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## hobelim (Jun 5, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> Mark 3:28 , again Jesus teaching, " ALL sins and blasphemies shall be forgiven men." All of them, in 1 John 3:5 Jesus took all sin away, no Christian can bring any of them back and try to condemn someone.




It says in 1 John 3:5 that Jesus came to do away with sin. Then it says that he who continues to sin is a child of the devil.  If there was no such thing as sin, how can anyone continue to be a sinner?  As 1John 3:4 says, sin is disobedience to the law. The only way that Jesus did away with sin is by teaching the right way to understand and comply with the law that leads to eternal life. If you do not do it, you cannot have the life promised for obedience to the law in you and are not saved from the consequences for failure to comply with the will of God..




Mickiel said:


> Now this so called " unforgivable sin", sinning against the Holy Spirit, there are exactly zero example of just how to do that given in scripture; so in my view, its impossible for a person to do it.
> 
> Your just going to have to find another way to condemn.



Jesus didn't seem to mind people calling him crazy, a drunk, a liar, whatever. What he said was unforgivable was people saying that the source of his inspiration, God,  was evil.

I'm not trying to condemn anyone. According to Jesus to deride a revelation of truth from God as evil can never be forgiven.


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## hobelim (Jun 5, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> The sick concept of eternal hell punishing is just religious mans effort to try and make God seem as sick as man.



Hell is nowhere to be found in reality except in the minds of those who do not conform to the way of life defined by divine law.

No one can receive the life promised for obedience to the law without doing it.


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## Mickiel (Jun 5, 2016)

hobelim said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > Mark 3:28 , again Jesus teaching, " ALL sins and blasphemies shall be forgiven men." All of them, in 1 John 3:5 Jesus took all sin away, no Christian can bring any of them back and try to condemn someone.
> ...





hobelim said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > The sick concept of eternal hell punishing is just religious mans effort to try and make God seem as sick as man.
> ...




God will always forgive , always . Unforgiveness is a human reaction. In Matt. 18:22 Jesus was asked how often  should we forgive? He said 7 times 70 or endlessly.


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## hobelim (Jun 5, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> hobelim said:
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> > Mickiel said:
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Jesus said to forgive 7 times 70 * IF* they repent which implies that those who do not repent and continue to sin should remain unforgiven...

How and why should anyone be forgiven who does not acknowledge and is not sorry for whatever thing they did wrong ?

Jesus was not teaching people to be chumps.


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## Mickiel (Jun 5, 2016)

hobelim said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > The sick concept of eternal hell punishing is just religious mans effort to try and make God seem as sick as man.
> ...




There is no such thing as law in heaven; laws are only for humans, they do not exist in the kingdom of God, because they are not needed. Heaven is ruled by the ways and means of God, as described in Gal.5; 22-23. The ways of God are love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness and temperance; these are the personal ways of God; its how he really is, and its how he rules heaven. Notice latter part of verse 23, " Against such things THERE IS NO LAW!" There is no laws in heaven.

Who's going to break them?

No, law is a human thing.


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## Mickiel (Jun 5, 2016)

hobelim said:


> Mickiel said:
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> > hobelim said:
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That is what true grace is all about, forgiveness that is not deserved. You keep describing how YOU would handle the sins of others; YOU would not forgive them if they don't measure up to YOUR standards of God. Which is why we are most fortunate that YOU are not God.


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## hobelim (Jun 5, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> hobelim said:
> 
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> > Mickiel said:
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Apparently you are confused to the meaning of heaven, eternal life, sin, and divine law.


If the law that came into the world through Moses and its secret meaning revealed by Jesus was a human thing then everything you are talking about amounts to bullshit.


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## hobelim (Jun 5, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> That is what true grace is all about, forgiveness that is not deserved. You keep describing how YOU would handle the sins of others; YOU would not forgive them if they don't measure up to YOUR standards of God. Which is why we are most fortunate that YOU are not God.




No, I cited verses where Jesus himself said who should or should not be forgiven and what sin can never be forgiven.

Would you like for me to re-post the verses?


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## Mickiel (Jun 5, 2016)

hobelim said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
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> > hobelim said:
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Law is a human thing, which is reality as  it is. In Gal. 5:22-23 it list the fruit of the Spirit, which are the ways and means of God, and it clearly states there are no laws against those ways. Now, those ways are what exist in Heaven, to be with God is to be surrounded by those ways of the Spirit; it is utter foolishness  to even think that a human law would be in existence in such a place. Or even needed.

There are ZERO laws in heaven, and nobody there to enforce them; enforce them to who? Nobody disobeys God in heaven. There is no such thing as disobedience in the Kingdom of God. You got too much of humanity on your mind.


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## Mickiel (Jun 5, 2016)

hobelim said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > That is what true grace is all about, forgiveness that is not deserved. You keep describing how YOU would handle the sins of others; YOU would not forgive them if they don't measure up to YOUR standards of God. Which is why we are most fortunate that YOU are not God.
> ...




I already understand the mentality you are coming from; you need to see a God who does not forgive. Because you want unbelievers and sinners punished. In Ps. 103:8-9, " The Lord is Merciful and Gracious, slow to anger and PLENTEOUS in Mercy. He will NOT always chide neither will he keep his anger forever." Now, this is how the true God is; I understand that his followers are not this way, but God will eventually forgive; its how he is. All have sinned, so all need forgiveness; and the real God is slap full of it.

Now, WHY does God forgive?

Because he likes it.


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## hobelim (Jun 5, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> I already understand the mentality you are coming from; you need to see a God who does not forgive. Because you want unbelievers and sinners punished.




Nothing about any of this has to do with me wanting sinners and unbelievers punished or not. What many consider sinful I do not consider a sin at all and what many consider a religious duty I consider to be the most despicable sin of them all.

Scripture says what it says. Sin is disobedience to divine law. The wages of sin are death. If scripture is true than this is true even if I was never born.

Even though at the resurrection everyone will be awakened, not everyone shall enter the kingdom of God.

"Many shall be purified and refined making their robes shining white but the wicked shall continue in wickedness and none of them shall understand."


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## Mickiel (Jun 5, 2016)

hobelim said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > I already understand the mentality you are coming from; you need to see a God who does not forgive. Because you want unbelievers and sinners punished.
> ...



I totally disagree with your view of scripture, as I do with the view of Christianity. Everyone will enter into the Kingdom of God, in Luke 3:6 ALL  humans shall see the salvation of God. Everyone! And religion cannot block this from the future.   Now, WHY did the Father even bother sending Jesus to earth?

Well, in 1 John 4:14, " For we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to BE the Savior OF THE WORLD!" That is Jesus given mission, to save everybody, not just those religion thinks should be saved. Christianity, as is all religion, is " Salvation handicapped", short sighted in their biblical view of salvation. Blind to scripture. God has not willed any human to perish; religion has willed that.


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## hobelim (Jun 5, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> hobelim said:
> 
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> > Mickiel said:
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According to scripture, evil is never rewarded with anything that would qualify as heaven and repentance is a prerequisite to salvation.

People who do not repent of their evil and their lies and their sorcery and their murders after 30, 50, 80, or even 100 years have made evil a deliberate choice and will never repent even if they could live forever.

Repentance is only an option for the living. No one can repent from the grave. Those who do not rise from the dead while they are living are judged according to their words and deeds upon physical death. Some will enter the realm of everlasting life. Some will not. Those who are judged worthy of the resurrection while they are living are not subject to judgment when they die. They have already passed from death to life.


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## Mickiel (Jun 5, 2016)

hobelim said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
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> > hobelim said:
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Well I don't subscribe to your view of scripture; I am not bound by it. It does not matter if people repent or not, in Rom. 14:8-9, it states it does not matter if we live unto the Lord or not; if we die without repenting; Jesus still died for the living and the dead. He died for everyone in every situation. He died for all those who you think have no hope; he died for every human you would condemn. In Romans 5:8, a miracle is revealed, " While we were yet sinners, ( this means while a human is constantly sinning in their lives),  Christ died FOR THE UNGODLY!"

Stunning salvation; those evil people you are willing to write off, Jesus died for them. Thus, nothing can stop their salvation.


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## hobelim (Jun 5, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> hobelim said:
> 
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Well, that all sounds very sweet but it just can't be true. 

Your belief turns God into a capricious jackass and makes life seem like some cruel joke with no benefit to striving for holiness nor penalty for being a dick.


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## Mickiel (Jun 5, 2016)

hobelim said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
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If you think God designed human life as a survival of the fittest, that's your problem. Religion has invaded your vd


hobelim said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > hobelim said:
> ...




 Christ came to seek and save every jackass and dick in this world; Luke 19:9; and he did it free of charge; we don't have to qualify, we don't have to race, we don't have to be approved by people like you;

its just a done deal.


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## Mickiel (Jun 5, 2016)

Why would a God even need a hell? God needs hell like he needs Christianity; he does not need either but both dominate the minds of men; typical deception at its finest. Men listen to everything but God.


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## Mickiel (Jun 5, 2016)

Hey, why would God need a hell, when in Rev. 20:14, " Death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death." The second death, is the death of the first death, and the total elimination of the " Real hell", the grave. Christianity was sent to give a false gospel, a false interpretation of some freakish everlasting hell.

Don't you believe that about God.


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## Mickiel (Jun 5, 2016)

Hell is a Christian hoax, but the sheer persuasive power of it is simply stunning; the manner in which it has crippled the human consciousness in history;

23 Minutes In Hell

Christianity is an awesome power of seduction; the seduction of the Christian mind is a prime example of how unseen powers can convince a group of humans to masquerade as regents of God and help seduce a whole world to stunning lies; such as eternal hell punishing, or the Trinity, or Jesus being God, or limited Atonement and Lucifer being satan. They have convinced the world that God sanctioned Christmas and Easter , and that they own the bible. Stunning power on display;

God has to be behind this great seduction on humanity.Its just too well done.


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## Mickiel (Jun 5, 2016)

Notice this excellent case against hell;

Bible Reality Check--A Case Against Hell


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## Bruce_T_Laney (Jun 5, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> I have asked myself why a God would need a hell, ( and by hell I mean the Christian version of it). I mean here this great being of life and love , is said to have created a place of eternal misery? And something is just not right with that, because it makes no sense at all. But a lot of things in religion make no sense, but religion rains on humanity, getting all of our consciousness wet in one manner or another.
> 
> My view of God, and I don't know God, have never seen him or heard his voice; is a view that I know is already distorted by many things; but I view him as merciful, loving, kind, forgiving, longsuffering, all the things that this Christian hell is not. So I don't think this hell is God's creation, I think the Christians created it. I think this eternal hell punishing is what Christians would do with unbelievers, not God. I think its moreso what the Christians want.
> 
> Why would God make an eternal monument out of evil? For what? Why would such a being of great power of change, co-exist with misery forever? Why? I can't see it. I think something is seriously wrong with this myopic view of hell! The powers that exist which can seduce the consciousness of humanity into believing nonsense, is simply stunning.



Simple answer:

Humans have free will and with this free will we have choices that will be judge at the end of our time, and during the judgment God will weigh our signs and if they are too heavy then hell is where we end up at to spend the rest of time learning from our mistake...

Again it is the Free Will part...

Now you can argue against my simplistic logic and tell me I have to be incorrect or that I am foolish to even write such nonsense but I am answering your question...

Without the Free Will humanity would not sin but with it we do and must be held accountable for our sins and what other punishment would be fitting for our failure to control our sinful nature than putting us in a place that would torture us for eternity?


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## Mickiel (Jun 5, 2016)

Bruce_T_Laney said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > I have asked myself why a God would need a hell, ( and by hell I mean the Christian version of it). I mean here this great being of life and love , is said to have created a place of eternal misery? And something is just not right with that, because it makes no sense at all. But a lot of things in religion make no sense, but religion rains on humanity, getting all of our consciousness wet in one manner or another.
> ...




The Christian beliefs are stunning, they actually think that God believes human will to be more important than life itself; they think God would let his children be stupid enough to choose their own fate to be eternal torture ; stunning what deception can do to the human rationale.

They actually think God would allow a human to live in eternity while being punished every single second for 77 thousand years, plus, 54 million more years, plus, 90 billion more years of this incredible torture, plus, another 6,999,873 trillion more years, plus, ten thousand more years of this insane continual hurting of humans, just to assure them of having a free will to choose this, plus another 33,975 billion more years, then the process begins all over again and repeats itself for all of infinity.

You had better hope that God is nothing like Christianity.


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## hadit (Jun 6, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> hadit said:
> 
> 
> > hobelim said:
> ...


Other than the quote I posted from Jesus Himself, you mean.


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## hadit (Jun 6, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> Bruce_T_Laney said:
> 
> 
> > Mickiel said:
> ...


If you want to use Scripture to bolster that viewpoint, you have to deal with the Scripture that says it's full of holes.


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## hadit (Jun 6, 2016)

hobelim said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > Mark 3:28 , again Jesus teaching, " ALL sins and blasphemies shall be forgiven men." All of them, in 1 John 3:5 Jesus took all sin away, no Christian can bring any of them back and try to condemn someone.
> ...


You cannot repent of sin unless you are convicted of sin.  Conviction comes through the action of the Holy Spirit.  If God stops convicting you, you cannot repent and be forgiven.  Repentence is necessary for forgiveness.


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## hobelim (Jun 6, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> Christ came to seek and save every jackass and dick in this world; Luke 19:9; and he did it free of charge; *we* don't have to qualify, *we* don't have to race, *we *don't have to be approved by people like you;
> 
> its just a done deal.





How many of you are there?


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## hobelim (Jun 6, 2016)

hadit said:


> hobelim said:
> 
> 
> > Mickiel said:
> ...




I pretty much agree. According to scripture many people are just abandoned to their folly, this OP being a case in point. He denies the existence of hell without realizing that he is already in it. For as long as he lacks the awareness that he has already received the penalty for perjuring himself in the name of God repentance is impossible and consequently forgiveness and salvation will remain out of his reach.

To anyone whose mind has been defiled by what is false, reality itself is like a consuming fire that will never go out. When what a person professes to believe is contradicted by reality and refuted by their own conscience day and night, life itself is hell.


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## Mickiel (Jun 6, 2016)

hadit said:


> hobelim said:
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## Mickiel (Jun 6, 2016)

hadit said:


> hobelim said:
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Repentance is- necessary for forgives. The Apostle Paul did not repent, he was forced to do Gods will. He was not givin a choice.


Repentance is not necessary for forgiveness, Paul and Moses did not repent, they were just told what to do. They had no choice. Jesus. never repented.. Jesus nad no free will choices. He came to do Gods will, not his own.


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## Mickiel (Jun 6, 2016)

hobelim said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > Christ came to seek and save every jackass and dick in this world; Luke 19:9; and he did it free of charge; *we* don't have to qualify, *we* don't have to race, *we *don't have to be approved by people like you;
> ...




Only one,


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## hobelim (Jun 6, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> Jesus. never repented.. Jesus nad no free will choices. He came to do Gods will, not his own.






Jesus submitted to the baptism of John which was done as a token of repentance for the forgiveness of sins. Then "the heavens opened up" to him.

Are you just making this up as you go along?


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## Mickiel (Jun 6, 2016)

hobelim said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > Jesus. never repented.. Jesus nad no free will choices. He came to do Gods will, not his own.
> ...




Lets look at that In John 29-32 John see Jesus coming and says, : Behold the L:amb of God who takes away the sins of the WORLD." ( and no Christian doctrine of condemnation can bring any of those sins back),  John called Jesus the man to come after him. Then John saw the Spirit descending  from heaven and it " Abode on him", meaning " It Stayed with him" The Spirit " Remained" with Jesus; stayed in him the rest of his life. Then it says that Jesus will baptize people with the Holy Ghost, not water. So Jesus is even changing baptism here.


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## hobelim (Jun 6, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> Lets look at that In John 29-32 John see Jesus coming and says, : Behold the L:amb of God who takes away the sins of the WORLD." ( *and no Christian doctrine of condemnation can bring any of those sins back*),




Sin is disobedience to the law. Jesus did away with sin by teaching the only right way to understand and conform to the hidden subjects of the law that leads to the fulfillment of the promise of eternal life for compliance effectively removing the burden of the law which is the death consequent for failure to fulfill the laws demands *only for those who receive his teaching and do it..*

Unless you eat his flesh(receive his teaching) and do it, (drink his blood) you cannot have the life promised for obedience to the law in you.




BTW, if Jesus took away the sins of the world in some other way, how is it that you identify yourself as a sinner?


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## Mickiel (Jun 6, 2016)

hobelim said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > Lets look at that In John 29-32 John see Jesus coming and says, : Behold the L:amb of God who takes away the sins of the WORLD." ( *and no Christian doctrine of condemnation can bring any of those sins back*),
> ...



Because I still sin. I just have an Advocate with the Father; he and Christ are always ready to forgive


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## hadit (Jun 6, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> hadit said:
> 
> 
> > hobelim said:
> ...


On the contrary, Paul DID repent.  Remember when he faced the glorified Christ, who asked him why did Saul persecute Him.  In order to become what Christ wanted him to be, Saul had to stop doing what he was doing because it was wrong.  That is repentance.  Moses faced consequences for his sin, as he was forbidden to enter the promised land.  Jesus didn't have to repent, because He was sinless.  He did what the Father wanted because He chose to do so.  How well do you really know the Scriptures if you continue to ignore their entire thrust, which is that man has sinned and needs to repent?  Again, deal with the White Throne Judgement.


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## Mickiel (Jun 6, 2016)

hadit said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > hadit said:
> ...




Paul did not repent, Notice what really happened in Acts 9:1-6 Paul was going about killing Christians and threatening those he did not kill. He was traveling and as he neared  Damascus, a bright light from heaven knocked him down. It also blinded him. All Jesus did was ask Paul why is he persecuting him? Paul was scared to death, and asked Jesus what will he have him to do, and Jesus simply told him what to do; and he has been telling him what to do ever since. Paul did not repent, he did not fight, he did not argue, he simply did what all others that God and Christ speak to does; he did like he was told; he was given absolutely no choices.

That is what REALLY happens when God communicates with humans, they do as they are told; angels do as they are told, demons do as they are told; There are no choices with God; you either do what you are told, or you risk never doing anything ever again;

Welcome to reality; hello!


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## hadit (Jun 6, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> hadit said:
> 
> 
> > Mickiel said:
> ...


You said, "you risk never doing anything ever again".  That should give you pause, because it contradicts your ever so certain claim that all will be saved, no matter what.

Deal with the White Throne Judgement.  The more you ignore it, the more certain I will be that you have no intention of honoring Scripture, but only want that which agrees with you.


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## Mickiel (Jun 6, 2016)

hadit said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > hadit said:
> ...




I think a person can be saved, and given nothing to do in the Kingdom; they just have to go outside of the gates and hope to be involved there. I did not say God would kill them.

As far as the Great White Throne Judgment, God will not judge humans there. In John 5:22 Jesus said the Father will judge no human, but GAVE ALL judgment to him. In John 17:2  Jesus also taught that the Father GAVE him power over ALL humans, to literally GIVE them ALL eternal life. Unlike Christians, Jesus will GIVE ALL humans that free eternal life, without cost.

Deal with that, and see if you can still condemn a human after reading this stunning truth.


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## hobelim (Jun 7, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> I think a person can be saved, and given nothing to do in the Kingdom; they just have to go outside of the gates and hope to be involved there.




When a person receives an invitation to a black tie event but shows up dressed in filthy rags and reeking of vomit they do not get to enter, and they do not get to hang around, they are banned by the doorman, escorted off the premises,  and thrown out into the darkness where there is wailing and gnashing of teeth.


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## hadit (Jun 7, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> hadit said:
> 
> 
> > Mickiel said:
> ...


I'm sorry, but you simply cannot come to that conclusion after actually reading this:



> 11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.



I do not condemn anyone.  It is the Word of God that makes it clear all will be judged, and some will be condemned.  It is not my job to condemn, but rather to warn and show the way out.  No one need be condemned, but many will be.  Remember this that Jesus HIMSELF said -

Luke 13:


> 23 Someone asked him, “Lord, are only a few people going to be saved?”
> 
> He said to them, 24 “Make every effort to enter through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able to. 25 Once the owner of the house gets up and closes the door, you will stand outside knocking and pleading, ‘Sir, open the door for us.’
> 
> “But he will answer, ‘I don’t know you or where you come from.’



It doesn't get any clearer than that.


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## hobelim (Jun 7, 2016)

hadit said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > hadit said:
> ...




With all of that in mind I would think it should be of utmost importance for anyone who takes the subject seriously to learn about what specifically sin is. Jesus claimed to never sin even though the Pharisees accused Jesus of being a well known and shameless sinner. Jesus accused the Pharisees of being sinners and lying frauds even though they were famous for their acts of charity and for adhering to a strict  literal interpretation of divine law. Is it any wonder why Jesus appeared to be out of his mind?


Obviously Jesus had found another way to interpret and conform to divine law,  hidden and buried through figurative language since the time of Moses,  that has nothing whatever to do with what you eat or what you wear or who has what kind of sex with whom.


Find that way, and do it, and you will enter by the narrow gate that leads to eternal life.

If you look and look and keep on looking, you will find it.


"The kingdom of heaven is like hidden treasure lying buried in a field. The man who found it, buried it again." Matthew 13:44


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## Mickiel (Jun 7, 2016)

The last verse in the bible is universal, " The Grace of our Lord Jesus be with you ALL." I know Christians are conditioning this world to not believe in " All"; but the happy truth is that we ALL make it in the end.

Notice how the bible uses the term " All."

Do You Believe All in the Bible?


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## hadit (Jun 7, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> The last verse in the bible is universal, " The Grace of our Lord Jesus be with you ALL." I know Christians are conditioning this world to not believe in " All"; but the happy truth is that we ALL make it in the end.
> 
> Notice how the bible uses the term " All."
> 
> Do You Believe All in the Bible?


And that book opens with what statement?



> The *revelation* from Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place.



Are you trying to claim that "His servants" are all of humanity, from first to last?


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## Mickiel (Jun 7, 2016)

hadit said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > The last verse in the bible is universal, " The Grace of our Lord Jesus be with you ALL." I know Christians are conditioning this world to not believe in " All"; but the happy truth is that we ALL make it in the end.
> ...




Well I know that some of you Christians are trying to limit salvation, and limit the family of God; I understand that mission, its your thing.

My thing is this, to fight against that. We all are the children of God. Psalms 24:1, " The earth is the Lords and the fullness thereof, the world and they that dwell in it."


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## hadit (Jun 7, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> hadit said:
> 
> 
> > Mickiel said:
> ...


You continue to ignore Scripture that I lay in front of you, including quotes from Jesus Himself where He makes it abundantly clear that not everyone will be saved.  I am not limiting salvation.  Your complaint is with God, not me.


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## shimon (Jun 7, 2016)

There is no hell you create it for yourself by your choices and most people place themselves in it and only realize it by the regrets they have when their time is coming to an end....


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## LittleNipper (Jun 7, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> hadit said:
> 
> 
> > Mickiel said:
> ...


It is not about Limiting God's power or salvation. It is ultimately about choice. God wants those who what Him. Those who go to Hell want nothing to do with the One true God. They either concoct their own or deny He exists. Anywhere God doesn't interact is hell, as this undeniably totally places man in charge of his own fate. And man is powerless without God to do anything.

The other fact is that those that go to Heaven will one day have no memories of their past. There may hot even be any recollections that this planet even existed. In contrast, those that end up in hell will have nothing but their memories ---- coulda, woulda, shoulda...  If only!  That would be a terrible worm to live with eternally. I imagine that the person who commits suicide ultimately has to live with himself forever. That would be an unquenchable fire indeed...


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## Mickiel (Jun 11, 2016)

LittleNipper said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > hadit said:
> ...





I think God wants everybody.


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## Mickiel (Jun 12, 2016)

We were created to live and we can freely have that life. The real hell, the grave, will be eliminated and death will be destroyed;  the death of this first death, will be the death of death; the second death is the death of the first death.


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## Unkotare (Jun 12, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> I have asked myself why a God would need a hell,......




God doesn't. People make hell through their choices.


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## Mickiel (Jun 12, 2016)

Unkotare said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > I have asked myself why a God would need a hell,......
> ...




That's right, and we do not have to live in a kind of hell,  then die and go to a greater one; that makes no sense; and A God would have far too much sense to do senseless things.


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## hadit (Jun 13, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> LittleNipper said:
> 
> 
> > Mickiel said:
> ...


He does, but He won't force you if you don't want Him.  If you want to be without Him for eternity, you can get exactly that.


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## hadit (Jun 13, 2016)

Unkotare said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > I have asked myself why a God would need a hell,......
> ...


Hell was not originally designed for people.  It was designed for the fallen angels.  People will put themselves there.  It's sad, really, when they don't have to.


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## hobelim (Jun 13, 2016)

hadit said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> > Mickiel said:
> ...




Hell was not designed by God for anybody. Hell is not a place of punishment during life or after death. Hell is not a place. Hell is about cause and effect. It is a state of mind consequent to disorder and confusion.

If you fail to stand guard over the purity of your own mind and instead indiscriminately fill it with irrational garbage it will defile and contaminate your consciousness, impair your ability to think and perceive accurately,  and you will degenerate into an irrational creature that is bound by confusion to say and do stupid things that injure yourself and the people that you love.




.


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## The Irish Ram (Jun 13, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> I have asked myself why a God would need a hell, ( and by hell I mean the Christian version of it). I mean here this great being of life and love , is said to have created a place of eternal misery? And something is just not right with that, because it makes no sense at all. But a lot of things in religion make no sense, but religion rains on humanity, getting all of our consciousness wet in one manner or another.
> 
> My view of God, and I don't know God, have never seen him or heard his voice; is a view that I know is already distorted by many things; but I view him as merciful, loving, kind, forgiving, longsuffering, all the things that this Christian hell is not. So I don't think this hell is God's creation, I think the Christians created it. I think this eternal hell punishing is what Christians would do with unbelievers, not God. I think its moreso what the Christians want.
> 
> Why would God make an eternal monument out of evil? For what? Why would such a being of great power of change, co-exist with misery forever? Why? I can't see it. I think something is seriously wrong with this myopic view of hell! The powers that exist which can seduce the consciousness of humanity into believing nonsense, is simply stunning.



This God that created hundreds of rules, and if you break one He gets to send you to hell, does not exist.

Spirits are eternal.  God is eternal, Satan is eternal, we are eternal. Note in the Bible, that Satan is never killed.  He will be chained, and eventually dispatched to an area where he can no longer effect us, but never dies.
There are spirits so evil that if God didn't currently have them chained in the lowest abyss of hell, would utterly destroy mankind.  Hell was created specifically for Satan, fallen angels and demons.  NOT us.
And to insure that we don't end up there, God took human form and paid the price of sin for every single one of us, to* secure *our place with Him for eternity.
If you accept the gift that was given to us by God, through Jesus,  your future as child of the All Mighty and co-heir with Christ is bright.
The only humans that will accompany Satan to his destination are those who follow their father, Satan, and quite possibly, those who reject the offer to have their sins wiped from them. God makes the offer available, but doesn't force it upon any of us.  So, you can blame Him.  He created the gateway, but taking that road is strictly up to us.    The cross makes it possible to enter Heaven, not on your record, but on Christ's.  That was the exchange that took place.   Those who spurn the offer and chose to die wrapped in their sin will be summons to court to plead their case at the White Throne Judgment.  Good Luck there.

As for rules, there are none that can condemn you.  Not 10, not 600.  Up until the Exodus man was in a constant state of forgiveness.  During the exodus Jews were under a constant state of forgiveness, until...
The Laws were given to that select group because they bragged that they could keep from sinning no matter what God put in their path.  So God called them on it.  But loving God that He is, immediately gave them the ability to cover their sins to keep them from an eternal death.
Then sent Christ to rid them and us from our sins once and for all.  God doesn't even remember the sins that were removed on that cross anymore.  
Accept their gift and all God sees when He looks at you is the righteousness of His Son covering you.  Christ enabled us to return to the state of grace that we started out in.  It is favor that we don't deserve, but get anyway.  Because He loves us.


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## sealybobo (Jun 13, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> I have asked myself why a God would need a hell, ( and by hell I mean the Christian version of it). I mean here this great being of life and love , is said to have created a place of eternal misery? And something is just not right with that, because it makes no sense at all. But a lot of things in religion make no sense, but religion rains on humanity, getting all of our consciousness wet in one manner or another.
> 
> My view of God, and I don't know God, have never seen him or heard his voice; is a view that I know is already distorted by many things; but I view him as merciful, loving, kind, forgiving, longsuffering, all the things that this Christian hell is not. So I don't think this hell is God's creation, I think the Christians created it. I think this eternal hell punishing is what Christians would do with unbelievers, not God. I think its moreso what the Christians want.
> 
> Why would God make an eternal monument out of evil? For what? Why would such a being of great power of change, co-exist with misery forever? Why? I can't see it. I think something is seriously wrong with this myopic view of hell! The powers that exist which can seduce the consciousness of humanity into believing nonsense, is simply stunning.


If anything it would reward good with heaven and nothing for bad people. Just nothing, not hell.

The Greeks only believed great people went to heaven. So Odysseus Jason achellis the 300 in the movie 300, those great people went to Mt Olympus. The rest of us rode a boat in the river Stix or something like that.

You just know the Greeks speculated about bad people going to hell


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## emilynghiem (Jun 14, 2016)

Mickiel hell and heaven have many levels and stages . 
What leads down the road to hell is unforgiveness.
So it is the negative consequences of unforgiveness so we can learn the difference between the healing powers of forgiveness that lead to heavenly peace.

The purpose of hell is similar to war. We learn it's better not to go there. But each culture experiences this so we learn by trial and error, by experience and reason.

It's like disease that teaches us what causes health to weaken and deteriorate vs. What promotes good health and long life.

Lastly some processes of hell are used to burn away evil in the lake of fire so only what is pure remains. Some of it is like a purging process, like anger and grief are stages of healing and recovery to get to peace.


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## Mickiel (Jun 14, 2016)

emilynghiem said:


> Mickiel hell and heaven have many levels and stages .
> What leads down the road to hell is unforgiveness.
> So it is the negative consequences of unforgiveness so we can learn the difference between the healing powers of forgiveness that lead to heavenly peace.
> 
> ...




I do personally believe that the "Lake of Fire" is a purging process for humans , I agree with that.


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## Mickiel (Jun 16, 2016)

Why  need  a hell? Why would he need a garbage can?


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## Conservative65 (Jun 16, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> I have asked myself why a God would need a hell, ( and by hell I mean the Christian version of it). I mean here this great being of life and love , is said to have created a place of eternal misery? And something is just not right with that, because it makes no sense at all. But a lot of things in religion make no sense, but religion rains on humanity, getting all of our consciousness wet in one manner or another.
> 
> My view of God, and I don't know God, have never seen him or heard his voice; is a view that I know is already distorted by many things; but I view him as merciful, loving, kind, forgiving, longsuffering, all the things that this Christian hell is not. So I don't think this hell is God's creation, I think the Christians created it. I think this eternal hell punishing is what Christians would do with unbelievers, not God. I think its moreso what the Christians want.
> 
> Why would God make an eternal monument out of evil? For what? Why would such a being of great power of change, co-exist with misery forever? Why? I can't see it. I think something is seriously wrong with this myopic view of hell! The powers that exist which can seduce the consciousness of humanity into believing nonsense, is simply stunning.



You left out the most important part.  YOU have the ability to make a choice to avoid hell.

I am merciful, loving, kind, forgiving and longsuffereing with my children.  Does that mean that there isn't a punishment for them if they do wrong and make bad choices?


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## Conservative65 (Jun 16, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> emilynghiem said:
> 
> 
> > Mickiel hell and heaven have many levels and stages .
> ...



It is.  The thing is it's an eternally long process that never ends.


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## turzovka (Jun 16, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> I have asked myself why a God would need a hell, ( and by hell I mean the Christian version of it). I mean here this great being of life and love , is said to have created a place of eternal misery? And something is just not right with that, because it makes no sense at all. But a lot of things in religion make no sense, but religion rains on humanity, getting all of our consciousness wet in one manner or another.
> 
> My view of God, and I don't know God, have never seen him or heard his voice; is a view that I know is already distorted by many things; but I view him as merciful, loving, kind, forgiving, longsuffering, all the things that this Christian hell is not. So I don't think this hell is God's creation, I think the Christians created it. I think this eternal hell punishing is what Christians would do with unbelievers, not God. I think its moreso what the Christians want.
> 
> Why would God make an eternal monument out of evil? For what? Why would such a being of great power of change, co-exist with misery forever? Why? I can't see it. I think something is seriously wrong with this myopic view of hell! The powers that exist which can seduce the consciousness of humanity into believing nonsense, is simply stunning.


What you are really asking is why did God create earth and humans?  You would prefer we were just angels with no free will and in heaven experiencing a lot of bliss.  But no real cause for sacrificial love because without free will there is no difference between you and me. 

I think there has to be a hell in order for heaven to be as glorious and filled with love as it is. 

I also think when man interprets Scripture for himself and assigns people and acts as hell bound he is creating great error and folly.  I think God wants us to cling to that which has been revealed and is clearly known – and to avoid these mysteries we cannot understand.


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## emilynghiem (Jun 16, 2016)

Conservative65 said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > I have asked myself why a God would need a hell, ( and by hell I mean the Christian version of it). I mean here this great being of life and love , is said to have created a place of eternal misery? And something is just not right with that, because it makes no sense at all. But a lot of things in religion make no sense, but religion rains on humanity, getting all of our consciousness wet in one manner or another.
> ...



Dear Mickiel RE: Why need a hell? Why would he need a garbage can?

I think you and Conservative65 both answered this question
though I might word it differently than just punishment in itself.

1. if we agree that a purging process is necessary, then detention or time out
is helpful in sitting still while going through internal cleansing. Penitentiaries got
their name because they used to be used for this.
The cleansing process isn't pleasant but can be as painful as the wrongs committed.
The scraping out of these attachments to the soul has been compared to
chemotherapy that makes a person feel they are dying and being gutted out.
it can feel worse than the cancer, but is necessary to remove all tumors so they don't grow back

2. instead of seeing it only as punishment it is
a. part of learning process, of experiencing both good consequences of better choices
and bad consequences of worse choices that compromise health of body mind spirit relations or society
so ills in people and society are symptoms of something out of balance in conflict and out of harmony
this suffering is different levels of hell and full blown war and genocide
even drug addictions and mental illness are some manifestations of hell from negative forces overtaking the person
b. a matter of getting the justice you give
so if you are judgmental and punitive toward others by retribution
God will treat you to a taste of your own medicine when you do something wrong
but if you are forgiving and seek correction for accountability sake
then you will be forgiven to the same degree and allowed to correct your errors with the same grace.

We can only learn this lesson of equal justice by practicing it: reaping what we sow,
laws of karma or cause and effect, dying by our own sword or living by our own words.
if we condemn people to hell, and they do the same we both go there by our mutual unforgiveness
if we forgive and receive one another for correction and restitution sake, we both enjoy benefits of solving problems, healing relations, sharing credit and preventing problems from causing further suffering in a cycle we can break

Since God gives us free choice, this is how we learn.
we have the choice of creating hell or heaven on earth, and in our daily relations between people and groups
tribes or nations currently either at war or in process of seeking ways to make peace and rebuild by restitution for past wrongs, and collectively this process is reflected as hell or heaven on a higher spiritual level

We either live by restorative justice that is Christ Jesus
or we die by retributive justice that is antichrist.


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## Mickiel (Jun 17, 2016)

I do not believe that God gives us free choice; he gives us free life, there is no other choice but him.


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## Mickiel (Jun 18, 2016)

Why  would a God need a  torture trophy?


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## onefour1 (Jun 19, 2016)

Are there laws in heaven?  Does God consign the righteous to eternally live among the wicked?  Is God a just God?  Does he meet out justice according to his own laws?  Does salvation come to the unrepentant soul?  You are worthy of the kingdom that you choose in this life.  Has not God given you the opportunity to choose good over evil?  If you choose evil over good, is it just that you should spend your time in the hereafter with the righteous?  Is not a separation of the wicked from the righteous a hell for the wicked?  Did not Lucifer have a choice to follow the laws of God and not become a law unto himself?  Has not God called upon all to repent of their sins?  Did he not provide a way for the repentant sinner to escape eternal justice by repenting and following after Jesus Christ who atoned for the sins of the world?  Is it not man who rejects God and not God who rejects man?  Too many want to have their cake and eat it too.  They want to sin and become evil and corrupt and then be allowed into heaven.  God is a just God.  Only the repentant sinner will be allowed into the kingdom of heaven.  Those who have not repented but continually seek after evil will be damned from entering his kingdom. 

*John 3:16*
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

*2 Nephi 2:13*
13 And if ye shall say there is no law, ye shall also say there is no sin. If ye shall say there is no sin, ye shall also say there is no righteousness. And if there be no righteousness there be no happiness. And if there be no righteousness nor happiness there be no punishment nor misery. And if these things are not there is no God. And if there is no God we are not, neither the earth; for there could have been no creation of things, neither to act nor to be acted upon; wherefore, all things must have vanished away.


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## Mickiel (Jun 19, 2016)

In my understanding there  are no laws in heaven;   for what?


onefour1 said:


> Are there laws in heaven?  Does God consign the righteous to eternally live among the wicked?  Is God a just God?  Does he meet out justice according to his own laws?  Does salvation come to the unrepentant soul?  You are worthy of the kingdom that you choose in this life.  Has not God given you the opportunity to choose good over evil?  If you choose evil over good, is it just that you should spend your time in the hereafter with the righteous?  Is not a separation of the wicked from the righteous a hell for the wicked?  Did not Lucifer have a choice to follow the laws of God and not become a law unto himself?  Has not God called upon all to repent of their sins?  Did he not provide a way for the repentant sinner to escape eternal justice by repenting and following after Jesus Christ who atoned for the sins of the world?  Is it not man who rejects God and not God who rejects man?  Too many want to have their cake and eat it too.  They want to sin and become evil and corrupt and then be allowed into heaven.  God is a just God.  Only the repentant sinner will be allowed into the kingdom of heaven.  Those who have not repented but continually seek after evil will be damned from entering his kingdom.
> 
> *John 3:16*
> 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
> ...




Well again I disagree, I just do not view scripture like a Christian does. There are no laws in heaven, there are no law breakers there.  The Kingdom of God is ruled by Love, peace, Joy, kindness , faith,  Goodness ; in other words its ruled by the very character of God and his ways; or the " Fruit of the Spirit", as listed in Gal. 5:22-23;notice last part of  verse 23;"  Against these ways " There is no law!"

Why would the Kingdom of God need laws? No sin is there.


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## Mickiel (Jun 20, 2016)

Why would a God need human laws?

Why would he need a hell for humans?
Why do we imagine Godly things in human terms?


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## onefour1 (Jun 20, 2016)

Who said that God's laws were those of mortal men? Why would God cast Satan out of heaven?

*Revelation 12:9*
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Why would Jesus tell us:

*Matthew 7:21*
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

God's will is the law and Satan broke it.  If we do not learn to live by God's laws, we too will be kept from entering his kingdom.  For those who have eternal hatred toward God and his goodness, hell is the only place for them.  Satan lived in the presence of God and knew of his goodness and love.  Yet, he was a selfish power seeker who cared not for his father but sought to overtake his kingdom.  God will not allow the wicked to inhabit the same place as the righteous.  Otherwise it would be no heaven for those who seek the goodness of God.


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## Mickiel (Jun 20, 2016)

God has no laws in his Kingdom , show me any scriptures that state that.

satan did not break any law of God , he was created to be evil. Old covenant laws did not apply to the devil. satan NEVER lived in God's presence , I would like to see that in scripture.


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## LittleNipper (Jun 21, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> God has no laws in his Kingdom , show me any scriptures that state that.
> 
> satan did not break any law of God , he was created to be evil. Old covenant laws did not apply to the devil. satan NEVER lived in God's presence , I would like to see that in scripture.


Satan wanted to usurp GOD. HE wanted to become GOD. He lied to Adam and Eve. All sin ultimately goes back to a desire to take over, manipulate and control. Satan, unlike Adam knew the power of GOD and saw GOD in all His splendor. Satan wanted that and more; however, he is just a created being.  Created beings depend on GOD for their existence and survival and not the other way around. The math simply doesn't work that way.


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## Weatherman2020 (Jun 21, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> I have asked myself why a God would need a hell, ( and by hell I mean the Christian version of it). I mean here this great being of life and love , is said to have created a place of eternal misery? And something is just not right with that, because it makes no sense at all. But a lot of things in religion make no sense, but religion rains on humanity, getting all of our consciousness wet in one manner or another.
> 
> My view of God, and I don't know God, have never seen him or heard his voice; is a view that I know is already distorted by many things; but I view him as merciful, loving, kind, forgiving, longsuffering, all the things that this Christian hell is not. So I don't think this hell is God's creation, I think the Christians created it. I think this eternal hell punishing is what Christians would do with unbelievers, not God. I think its moreso what the Christians want.
> 
> Why would God make an eternal monument out of evil? For what? Why would such a being of great power of change, co-exist with misery forever? Why? I can't see it. I think something is seriously wrong with this myopic view of hell! The powers that exist which can seduce the consciousness of humanity into believing nonsense, is simply stunning.


The Christian version of hell is simply you are separated from God.  You don't get to come into the club, your stuck outside.  
It's your choice where you want to go.  Man up and take responsibility for your own decision.


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## Mickiel (Jun 21, 2016)

LittleNipper said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > God has no laws in his Kingdom , show me any scriptures that state that.
> ...




satan did not lie to Adam and Eve; show me where he lied. He did not have to lie, he manipulated them. It was easy , quick and outclassed overpowered manipulation ; and God KNEW it would be that way ; and God did NOT help them.


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## Mickiel (Jun 21, 2016)

Weatherman2020 said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > I have asked myself why a God would need a hell, ( and by hell I mean the Christian version of it). I mean here this great being of life and love , is said to have created a place of eternal misery? And something is just not right with that, because it makes no sense at all. But a lot of things in religion make no sense, but religion rains on humanity, getting all of our consciousness wet in one manner or another.
> ...




I am the kind of parent that would not stand stupidly by and let my child make a choice that would cripple their entire lives. Just to say that I stood by some honor code of letting them choose for themselves.

You must think God is stupid.


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## Weatherman2020 (Jun 21, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> Weatherman2020 said:
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> > Mickiel said:
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So you prefer a God that controls all of your actions?  You better go back and read Genesis, we decided to not go that route a long time ago.

But God still doesn't like our stupid choices.  That's why God sent His Son, and whoever believes in Him ......


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## Mickiel (Jun 21, 2016)

Weatherman2020 said:


> Mickiel said:
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> > Weatherman2020 said:
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Yes, I prefer a God who controls all things and would not allow my actions to dictate my eternal life.


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## Weatherman2020 (Jun 21, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> Weatherman2020 said:
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> > Mickiel said:
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So you prefer a God who would not let you make that post.

It's your free will to desire that.  I prefer free will and the free ticket to heaven I got.


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## Mickiel (Jun 21, 2016)

Weatherman2020 said:


> Mickiel said:
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Yes, I prefer a God who would not let me make that post ;because if he did not want me to do it,  I would not want to either. I prefer God's will over my will ,and Jesus preferred the same ;  he said " Not my will,( or free will), but THY will be done!" The ticket is free, and I don't want my desire to have a free will to interfere with that free gift.


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## Mickiel (Jun 21, 2016)

We are  discussing what " We  would prefer" ,  now, what does God prefer or " Desire?" 1 Tim. 2:3-4," For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior ,who desires that ALL  men be saved and come to know the truth about him." God wants ALL of his children, ALL of humanity to be with him, especially those of us who reject him because of stupidity and this choice thingy  pimped out by religion.

Now Christians may not think all being saved is good and they obviously do not accept that , but God has accepted it. Christians do not control salvation.  God WANTS ALL saved , and God GETS what he wants; Job 23:13,"For he is of one mind and who can turn him? What his soul wants, that he DOES!"

Its academic!


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## emilynghiem (Jun 21, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> In my understanding there  are no laws in heaven;   for what?
> 
> 
> onefour1 said:
> ...


Just because ppl have learned to live in peace and justice by the laws doesn't mean they cease to exist. They are fulfilled and we follow them naturally by embodying them as Christians represents, fully by conscience reconciled and made one whole new and perfect with God's will truth and laws.

Fulfillment is not the same as abolishment. Mickiel

Heaven and earth shall pass away but God's word or laws remain eternal. There is a scripture that says God's word shall not pass away.


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## Mickiel (Jun 21, 2016)

emilynghiem said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > In my understanding there  are no laws in heaven;   for what?
> ...




Is there a scripture or two that says the Kingdom of God has laws ? Or a scripture or two or three that say there are laws in heaven? Could you kindly produce  them , I would like to see them. I mean you believe it , show us why.


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## emilynghiem (Jun 21, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> emilynghiem said:
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Dear Mickiel I think you and I agree that these are God's laws. Man's laws are for us to learn to live by God's laws that ours are a reflection of.

We must become like little children to enter the Kingdom of God.

We live by the two great commandments and the third new commandment to love one another as Christ jesus loves us.

So these laws are fulfilled.

Heaven and earth shall pass away bit God's word shall not.

I think you and I are meaning the same thing but saying it differently. When I read what you are saying I agree with you. But the way I say it isn't translating the same to you. But I agree with the spirit of what you're saying, even if my words are not perfect enough. 

Does that make sense? We agree in spirit but my words fail to express that


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## Mickiel (Jun 22, 2016)

emilynghiem said:


> Mickiel said:
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> > emilynghiem said:
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I requested that the biblical proof that heaven has laws, or that the Kingdom of God will have laws be provided ; they have not been provided , because nowhere in the bible does it state that. The Ten commandments are not going to rule heaven ; there are no mothers or fathers in heaven to  honor , there will be no killing in heaven, there will be no coveting , no stealing ;no REASON for any laws!


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## Mickiel (Jun 22, 2016)

Why would a God need a hell? I mean were  talking about God! God is not infected with the madness of eternal punishment for humans ; that is a human sickness belief.


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## LittleNipper (Jun 22, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> LittleNipper said:
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Genesis 2:

15 _Adonai,_ God, took the person and put him in the garden of ‘Eden to cultivate and care for it. 16 _Adonai,_ God, gave the person this order: “You may freely eat from every tree in the garden 17 except the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. You are not to eat from it, because on the day that you eat from it, it will become certain that you will die.”

Genesis 3

3 Now the serpent was more crafty than any wild animal which _Adonai,_ God, had made. He said to the woman, “Did God really say, ‘You are not to eat from any tree in the garden’?”  2 The woman answered the serpent, “We may eat from the fruit of the trees of the garden, 3 but about the fruit of the tree in the middle of the garden God said, ‘You are neither to eat from it nor touch it, or you will die.’” 4 The serpent said to the woman, _“It is not true that you will surely die; 5 because God knows that on the day you eat from it, your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”
_
Here we can see two lies. One, death is not certain if they eat of that tree. And two, they will be like God.


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## Mickiel (Jun 22, 2016)

LittleNipper said:


> Mickiel said:
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> > LittleNipper said:
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Their eyes were opened and they became like God , knowing good and evil , God said this happened in Gen. 3:22 , so that was no lie. And Adam did not " Surely Die", not then,  he lived longer than you or I will; Gen. 5:5  Adam lived 930 years  and I speculate Eve lived at least as long, because in verse 4 , he begat children after he was 800. So that was no lie, it was manipulation.


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## Mickiel (Jun 23, 2016)

The Devil did not have to lie to Adam and Eve ; they were like babies in his powerful hands , he manipulated them in seconds, they had absolutely no chance ; they were  overpowered and out classed, period! And God did NOT help them! God wanted them to be manipulated , that is WHY the devil was allowed into the garden in the first place.

Their failure prepared the NEED for Christ to come to earth; and that is the result God was after!


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## Mickiel (Jun 24, 2016)

Why would a God need a hell , when in his heart all he has is love?


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## emilynghiem (Jun 24, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> emilynghiem said:
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> 
> > Mickiel said:
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That's still following God's laws.
Just because these are obeyed doesn't mean they cease to exist.

Thus Jesus said he came not to abolish the law but to fulfill it.

Thanks for making that point Mickiel what you are saying in essence is God's laws are fulfilled so we don't try to enforce them using man's ways and man's laws. You call this having no laws, but I call it fulfilling the laws that have always been self existent.

It is like how atheists say the goal is to end all religion. When we fulfill the real purpose it will have the effect of no religion.


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## emilynghiem (Jun 24, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> Why would a God need a hell , when in his heart all he has is love?



The hell or suffering experienced by humans is a natural consequence as a result of going against the grain. Sort of like how cancer can be caused by smoking or bad diet and/or prolonged exposure to adverse chemicals. When we stop these unhealthy things that throw off natural health balance and healing, then we can prevent cancer.

In this analogy cancer is like hell, not a punishment, but consequence of unnatural or unhealthy imbalance that compels us to find and correct the cause. I think we agree on this Mickiel more than we disagree. I also don't think it is effective to keep harping on punishment, but find ppl are more successful by focusing on mutual corrections, shared credit and collective responsibility for solving problems by addressing all the causes instead of fighting over them. Instead of competing to make other ppl wrong, why not compete to make things right?


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## Mickiel (Jun 24, 2016)

Well I personally believe that all the suffering and pain and sin were intentionally placed on all humanity by God; you seem to think sin is an evil thing that we are being judged on how we deal with it , so there is a difference. I think God wanted humanity to be exposed to sin ,not to judge how we handle it ,but it is an essential part of salvation and the change of man ;  its an evolution from flesh and sin , to the glory of a whole new existence. Being born again ;but all must suffer persecution ,its the pathology of God. Strange , but I think true.

Notice Jesus in 2Corinth. 12:9," My grace is sufficient for you;  for my strength is made perfect in weakness." None of us can avoid the weakness , or the trials.


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## emilynghiem (Jun 24, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> Well I personally believe that all the suffering and pain and sin were intentionally placed on all humanity by God; you seem to think sin is an evil thing that we are being judged on how we deal with it , so there is a difference. I think God wanted humanity to be exposed to sin ,not to judge how we handle it ,but it is an essential part of salvation and the change of man ;  its an evolution from flesh and sin , to the glory of a whole new existence. Being born again ;but all must suffer persecution ,its the pathology of God. Strange , but I think true.
> 
> Notice Jesus in 2Corinth. 12:9," My grace is sufficient for you;  for my strength is made perfect in weakness." None of us can avoid the weakness , or the trials.



Again Mickiel I think we ARE saying the same thing!
The point is to Benefit and grow from the consequences
that allow us to learn from experience and choose by free will and reason.

I think you read what I said backwards to mean the opposite.
I am NOT for, but AGAINST teaching to "judge people as evil" for things judged sinful.
So if you are against this also, we agree in Both being AGAINST "demonizing" this as hell is too often taught.

Another reason I am cautious about NOT teaching God as judgmental is that it ties in with
people being judgmental and not forgiving and correcting problems.
It ties in with people being even more unforgiving and refusing to correct mutual faults.

I think you and I have been misreading or talking past each other,
because when you explain what you MEAN,
that is in AGREEMENT with what I mean and what I am saying also.

So it looks more and more like we agree, and it's just the way
I said it, you thought I meant the opposite. I don't see where I disagree with you,
except I thought you were saying hell doesn't refer to anything that exists or is valid.
You and I mean the same thing, but we don't teach it as sending anyone to hell as a punishment type thing.


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## Kristian (Jun 24, 2016)

To punish people how really need to live a life in hell. Lord and Christ isn't real Gods they are real Satans when they hate God name. 

I wonder if Moses are Swedish God in Jews bible.


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## Mickiel (Jun 24, 2016)

Many believers in God seem to actually think that God will judge humanity ; that just is not true. Its unbiblical. In John 5:22 " For the Father judges NO man , but has committed ALL judgment to the Son . "   All Judgment means every kind of judgment mentioned in the bible .God is not willing , nor has he willed,  ANY to perish, " Any" means nobody!


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## Mickiel (Jun 25, 2016)

Why would God need a hell ,when he does not even need the doctrines of men who created that perversion; none of their doctrines.


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## Mickiel (Jun 25, 2016)

Why would God even need this Christian hell , when he made sure this verse was recorded in scripture, 1 John 4:14," And we have  seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be " The Savior Of The World "  , My goodness , glory to this incredible  being . Not the Savior of just those who repent ,  not just believers , but for the WHOLE WORLD!

Now also notice 1 John 2:2 ," And he is the propitiation for our sins ,( the "Our" here is all believers ) ,  and NOT ours only ,but ALSO  for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD,( meaning all unbelievers) , .  Again  this is speaking of world salvation where everyone is included. Praise this Great God!


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## Mickiel (Jun 26, 2016)

Why would God need an eternal punishing hell ;  you think he is retarded or insane or something?  To barbarically keep humans alive and conscious for 897 hundred years of torment , then add 5,000 more years of this insane incredible existence of suffering ; hey now these pitiful humans are really " Super beings" , super sufferers!  Make them stand up and hurt them for another 9 million years. Don't let them sleep for another  600 billion years of untold punishing. Starve them for another 5,000 trillion years.  Then announce to them all that this is a permanent repeating cycle of their miserable existence. On into infinity.

And this insane belief is believed by the Christian mind, and spread like a  into this world!


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## Picaro (Jun 26, 2016)

pillars said:


> Hell is a European concept, springing from the Nordic goddess Hel, who ruled over the underworld.
> 
> Jews didn't believe in the concept of hell, and there is some debate over whether they believed in the afterlife.
> 
> This is an interesting article on Gehenna versus Sheol in Jewish and early Christian literature:  Gehenna - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



I think the ancient Greeks had a taboo against saying ' Hades' and a couple of other feared 'gods' and places as well, if somebody hasn't brought it up already.


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## Picaro (Jun 26, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> Why would God even need this Christian hell , when he made sure this verse was recorded in scripture, 1 John 4:14," And we have  seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be " The Savior Of The World "  , My goodness , glory to this incredible  being . Not the Savior of just those who repent ,  not just believers , but for the WHOLE WORLD!
> 
> Now also notice 1 John 2:2 ," And he is the propitiation for our sins ,( the "Our" here is all believers ) ,  and NOT ours only ,but ALSO  for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD,( meaning all unbelievers) , .  Again  this is speaking of world salvation where everyone is included. Praise this Great God!



God spoke to me just this morning; He was laughing, and said to me 'Hey, watch Me screw with this Mickiel pagan. He's really obsessed with Me and yet won't read anything in the Bible in context, making himself even crazier! It's hilarious!"

Okay, I admit my sense of humor isn't nearly as generous as Gods' is, and this is a lame topic with no basis in theology, just sniveling, and boring, not 'funny'.


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## Mickiel (Jun 26, 2016)

Picaro said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > Why would God even need this Christian hell , when he made sure this verse was recorded in scripture, 1 John 4:14," And we have  seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be " The Savior Of The World "  , My goodness , glory to this incredible  being . Not the Savior of just those who repent ,  not just believers , but for the WHOLE WORLD!
> ...



If its lame  , explain to me   why you visit it  ?


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## Mickiel (Jun 27, 2016)

Hey, why would God need a hell , when he knows its a human terrorist invention?


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## Mickiel (Jun 30, 2016)

Why would God even need " Church fokelore" , why would he even need the Christian religion for that matter? Or any religion; explain why God would need religion?


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## onefour1 (Jul 2, 2016)

Why would a God, who is an all powerful creator, not create us to be exactly like himself.  Why would he not endow us all with a perfect knowledge of good and evil and an understanding that evil is bad and goodness should reign so that we would only follow good continually?  Why did he not make us perfect?  Certainly if God is all powerful, he could have made us as perfect as himself.  Certainly if God is all knowing, he would know how to make us perfect beings.  And if God is an all loving being, certainly he would love you enough to make you perfect and not put you through an imperfect existence of pain and suffering.  If God is all powerful, he certainly had the power to make us perfect.  Why didn't he do it?  Does God really exist?  Yes or No?  These are the questions of the atheist.  But God has revealed the truth of all of this and more.


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## dpr112yme (Jul 2, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> I have asked myself why a God would need a hell, ( and by hell I mean the Christian version of it). I mean here this great being of life and love , is said to have created a place of eternal misery? And something is just not right with that, because it makes no sense at all. But a lot of things in religion make no sense, but religion rains on humanity, getting all of our consciousness wet in one manner or another.
> 
> My view of God, and I don't know God, have never seen him or heard his voice; is a view that I know is already distorted by many things; but I view him as merciful, loving, kind, forgiving, longsuffering, all the things that this Christian hell is not. So I don't think this hell is God's creation, I think the Christians created it. I think this eternal hell punishing is what Christians would do with unbelievers, not God. I think its moreso what the Christians want.
> 
> Why would God make an eternal monument out of evil? For what? Why would such a being of great power of change, co-exist with misery forever? Why? I can't see it. I think something is seriously wrong with this myopic view of hell! The powers that exist which can seduce the consciousness of humanity into believing nonsense, is simply stunning.


HE may have created 'hell' so His fallen ones wouldn't be put to a miserable death....


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## dpr112yme (Jul 2, 2016)

dpr112yme said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > I have asked myself why a God would need a hell, ( and by hell I mean the Christian version of it). I mean here this great being of life and love , is said to have created a place of eternal misery? And something is just not right with that, because it makes no sense at all. But a lot of things in religion make no sense, but religion rains on humanity, getting all of our consciousness wet in one manner or another.
> ...


'Hell is a prison.'


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## dpr112yme (Jul 2, 2016)

dpr112yme said:


> dpr112yme said:
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> 
> > Mickiel said:
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And the Lake of Fire might be a 'hotter' oven....


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## dpr112yme (Jul 2, 2016)

dpr112yme said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > I have asked myself why a God would need a hell, ( and by hell I mean the Christian version of it). I mean here this great being of life and love , is said to have created a place of eternal misery? And something is just not right with that, because it makes no sense at all. But a lot of things in religion make no sense, but religion rains on humanity, getting all of our consciousness wet in one manner or another.
> ...



And this way, He remains as 'The Great Being of life and love.'


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## dpr112yme (Jul 2, 2016)

dpr112yme said:


> dpr112yme said:
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> > Mickiel said:
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So from this, I guess I can say He is against the 'death penalty.'


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## dpr112yme (Jul 2, 2016)

dpr112yme said:


> dpr112yme said:
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But Islam terrorists don't show this...  Many Muslims who live peaceful lives, however, might.


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## dpr112yme (Jul 2, 2016)

dpr112yme said:


> dpr112yme said:
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GOD is just much too Powerful to need 'murderers.'


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## onefour1 (Jul 2, 2016)

The spirit of all men who come to this earth existed before the world was created.  We see evidence of this in the Bible:

*Ecclesiastes 12:7*
7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

It is true that Adam and Eve's physical bodies were created from the dust of the earth, but the life that was breathed into them was their spirit.  This verse tells us that upon death the dust will return to the earth as it was, and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

To the prophet Jeremiah, the Lord said:

*Jeremiah 1:4-5*
4 Then the word of the Lord came unto me, saying,
5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

This verse tells us that before Jeremiah was born, the Lord sanctified him, and ordained him to be a prophet unto the nations.

*Job 38:1-7*
1 Then the Lord answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said,
2 Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?
3 Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me.
4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.
5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?
6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;
7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

In this verse spoken to Job, the Lord asks him various questions concerning the creation of the earth an tells him at that time the morning stars sang together and all the sons of God shouted for joy.

The Apostles of Jesus question Jesus and asked:

*John 9:1-3*
1 And as Jesus passed by, he saw a man which was blind from his birth.
2 And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind?
3 Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him.

In this verse the Apostles ask the Lord if the blind man sinned before he was born that he was born blind or was it the sin of his parents.  Why would the Apostles believe that a man could have sinned before he was born if he never existed?  Obviously they believed that man existed before he was born.  To this question, the Lord could have taught them that their question was ridiculous if man was never existed before being born.  But Jesus simply answered that neither the man nor his parents sinned and allowed the presumption of pre-mortal existence to be.

Paul teaches us in Hebrews that God is the Father of our spirits.  This is why we call him Father:

*Hebrews 12:9*
9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

This is further corroborated by the following passage:

*Acts 17:27-29*
27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:
28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.
29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man’s device.

In this verse we find out that we are the literal offspring of God.  In other words, God is the literal Father of our spirits.  We are begotten sons and daughters of God in the spirit.  Jesus Christ, being the firstborn of God's spirit children is our elder brother.  Jesus is the only begotten of the Father in the flesh.

Speaking of Christ Paul says:

*Romans 8:29*
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Christ was the firstborn among all the spirit sons of God in the pre-mortal existence.  Referring to the war in heaven which took place before the foundation of this world, John writes:

*Revelation 12:7-11*
7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

In this verse we read of the war in heaven and one of the great leaders among the sons of God was Michael.  He was faithful to God and his Christ.  And many followed him and were his angels.  They contended against Satan and prevailed.  Satan was then cast out of heaven by the Father.  He was cast into this earth.  The interesting verse is verse 11.  Michael and those who sided with him eventually overcome Satan by the blood of the Lamb.  This is interesting because only those who sin are in need of the blood of the Lamb.  Which is the blood of Jesus Christ.  Thus those who existed in heaven and made war against Satan eventually came to this earth, sinned, and were in need of the blood of the Lamb.  We know they became mortal because the verse continues and tells us that they loved not their lives unto the death.  These children of God who fought valiantly in the pre-mortal existence, came to this earth, received a body made from the dust of the earth, needed the blood of the Lamb to overcome Satan, and eventually return to the God who gave their spirits as Ecclesiastes 12:7 tells us.

The spirits of those who followed after Satan were cast down with him.  They did not receive bodies.  This is why they try to possess our bodies at times.

*Mark 5:1-14*
1 And they came over unto the other side of the sea, into the country of the Gadarenes.
2 And when he was come out of the ship, immediately there met him out of the tombs a man with an unclean spirit,
3 Who had his dwelling among the tombs; and no man could bind him, no, not with chains:
4 Because that he had been often bound with fetters and chains, and the chains had been plucked asunder by him, and the fetters broken in pieces: neither could any man tame him.
5 And always, night and day, he was in the mountains, and in the tombs, crying, and cutting himself with stones.
6 But when he saw Jesus afar off, he ran and worshipped him,
7 And cried with a loud voice, and said, What have I to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of the most high God? I adjure thee by God, that thou torment me not.
8 For he said unto him, Come out of the man, thou unclean spirit.
9 And he asked him, What is thy name? And he answered, saying, My name is Legion: for we are many.
10 And he besought him much that he would not send them away out of the country.
11 Now there was there nigh unto the mountains a great herd of swine feeding.
12 And all the devils besought him, saying, Send us into the swine, that we may enter into them.
13 And forthwith Jesus gave them leave. And the unclean spirits went out, and entered into the swine: and the herd ran violently down a steep place into the sea, (they were about two thousand and were choked in the sea.
14 And they that fed the swine fled, and told it in the city, and in the country. And they went out to see what it was that was done.

The evil spirits preferred to enter the bodies of swine that not inhabit a body.

So what is the nature and purpose of these spirits who existed before, who are the offspring of God and have come to this earth and received bodies?  Stay tuned.


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## Mickiel (Jul 3, 2016)

Why  would God need a hell ? I mean  for what?


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## yiostheoy (Jul 3, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> I have asked myself why a God would need a hell, ( and by hell I mean the Christian version of it). I mean here this great being of life and love , is said to have created a place of eternal misery? And something is just not right with that, because it makes no sense at all. But a lot of things in religion make no sense, but religion rains on humanity, getting all of our consciousness wet in one manner or another.
> 
> My view of God, and I don't know God, have never seen him or heard his voice; is a view that I know is already distorted by many things; but I view him as merciful, loving, kind, forgiving, longsuffering, all the things that this Christian hell is not. So I don't think this hell is God's creation, I think the Christians created it. I think this eternal hell punishing is what Christians would do with unbelievers, not God. I think its moreso what the Christians want.
> 
> Why would God make an eternal monument out of evil? For what? Why would such a being of great power of change, co-exist with misery forever? Why? I can't see it. I think something is seriously wrong with this myopic view of hell! The powers that exist which can seduce the consciousness of humanity into believing nonsense, is simply stunning.


So why do you bother to imagine all these notions about a God Whom you have never seen ??

It is your own notions which create your own dilemmas.

From Philosophy we know that a God or several must exist.  The 4 classic proofs of God tell us this rationally.

Aristotle even calculated about 45 Gods must exist to rule the visible night sky.

The actual number is probably closer to 100 billion -- same as the number of galaxies in the Universe.

But as to  whether Heaven is just a big drinking party or if on the other hand it has rules -- Philosophy cannot tell us.

Buddhism and Hindu tell us that you keep coming back reincarnated as a lesser animal if you are evil, until you can relive your life as a good human again.  Philosophically this rewards bad behavior with immoral lives -- so this being a contradiction to rationality disproves Hinduism and Buddhism as being rational.

Jesus spoke of Hell as a place that Pharisees and Sadducees would go.  Do you think he was lying ??

Hell is needed as a reward for those who do evil -- murder -- rape -- robbery -- burglary -- vice -- slander -- libel -- etc.

What do you not understand about that ??

Do you just want the big drinking party in Heaven so much that you refuse to think logically about it ??

As you a Hedonist ??


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## yiostheoy (Jul 3, 2016)

onefour1 said:


> The spirit of all men who come to this earth existed before the world was created.  We see evidence of this in the Bible:
> 
> *Ecclesiastes 12:7*
> 7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
> ...


There is no authority or justification of Hebrews or Revelation.  These two books are frauds.

Grow up.

Do some Bible research.


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## yiostheoy (Jul 3, 2016)

Here is the coolest bumper sticker I ever saw:

"Heaven doesn't want me.  And Hell's afraid I'll take over."


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## Mickiel (Jul 3, 2016)

yiostheoy said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > I have asked myself why a God would need a hell, ( and by hell I mean the Christian version of it). I mean here this great being of life and love , is said to have created a place of eternal misery? And something is just not right with that, because it makes no sense at all. But a lot of things in religion make no sense, but religion rains on humanity, getting all of our consciousness wet in one manner or another.
> ...




 In my view  God will forgive and change the nature and life of all murderers ,  rapist , robbers and any other sinner;  hell is just the grave plain and simple. And we humans need that change ; it is our destiny ; we all make it.


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## Mickiel (Jul 3, 2016)

yiostheoy said:


> Here is the coolest bumper sticker I ever saw:
> 
> "Heaven doesn't want me.  And Hell's afraid I'll take over."



Heaven wants us all ;  Your just wrong in your view , somebody is taking you for a long walk in the wrong direction.


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## onefour1 (Jul 4, 2016)

In Revelation 12 it is apparent that free will is an eternal principal.  Satan was allowed to choose to go against God and others were allowed to follow after him.  So this brings up a great question.  Why does God allow free will?  The answer to that question is because God wants us to become like him.  He has command all of us to become like him.

*Matthew 5:48*
48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

This brings up the question, "Who tells God what to do?  or Who makes God do what he does?"  The answer is obviously NOBODY!  God does what he does of his own free will.  He doesn't have anyone telling him what to do or how to do it.  God is a being of supreme free will.  He is a being who does good continually of his own volition.  God not only wants us to do good and be good beings, but he wants us to do good of our own free will and choice.  You can only be a truly good being if you choose in and of yourself to do good.  You cannot force a person be like God.  For a person to be like God he needs to choose good of his own choosing.  This is the challenge of life.  Are you willing to choose good over evil of your own choosing and mold your character to become like the Father?  The Apostles of Jesus had this to say regarding themselves:

*1 John 3:2*
2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

Obviously the state of mankind is in an imperfect state.  We are not yet like the Father.  We do not always choose good continually.  But it is clear that the way to become like God is through free will.  You cannot be forced to be like God.  It just doesn't work.  God is a being of free will.  For us to be like him, we must learn to choose good over evil of our own volition.  Only then will we truly be like him.  Satan didn't see it this way.  He had a plan to take away the free will of God's children and force them to do good.  So Satan presented a plan of force to the Father and the Father rejected the plan because it simply would not work.  To truly be a good being, you have learn to choose good continually.  Satan was wroth and tried to turn all the hosts of heaven against the Father

*Abraham 3:22-28*
22 Now the Lord had shown unto me, Abraham, the intelligences that were organized before the world was; and among all these there were many of the noble and great ones;
23 And God saw these souls that they were good, and he stood in the midst of them, and he said: These I will make my rulers; for he stood among those that were spirits, and he saw that they were good; and he said unto me: Abraham, thou art one of them; thou wast chosen before thou wast born.
24 And there stood one among them that was like unto God, and he said unto those who were with him: We will go down, for there is space there, and we will take of these materials, and we will make an earth whereon these may dwell;
25 And we will prove them herewith, to see if they will do all things whatsoever the Lord their God shall command them;
26 And they who keep their first estate shall be added upon; and they who keep not their first estate shall not have glory in the same kingdom with those who keep their first estate; and they who keep their second estate shall have glory added upon their heads for ever and ever.
27 And the Lord said: Whom shall I send? And one answered like unto the Son of Man: Here am I, send me. And another answered and said: Here am I, send me. And the Lord said: I will send the first.
28 And the second was angry, and kept not his first estate; and, at that day, many followed after him.

*Moses 4:1-4*
1 And I, the Lord God, spake unto Moses, saying: That Satan, whom thou hast commanded in the name of mine Only Begotten, is the same which was from the beginning, and he came before me, saying—Behold, here am I, send me, I will be thy son, and I will redeem all mankind, that one soul shall not be lost, and surely I will do it; wherefore give me thine honor.
2 But, behold, my Beloved Son, which was my Beloved and Chosen from the beginning, said unto me—Father, thy will be done, and the glory be thine forever.
3 Wherefore, because that Satan rebelled against me, and sought to destroy the agency of man, which I, the Lord God, had given him, and also, that I should give unto him mine own power; by the power of mine Only Begotten, I caused that he should be cast down;
4 And he became Satan, yea, even the devil, the father of all lies, to deceive and to blind men, and to lead them captive at his will, even as many as would not hearken unto my voice.

It is obvious to me that the Father wants us to be like him.  In order for us to do so we must have free will just as he has free will.  And if we are to be good like him, we need to learn to choose good and do it because we believe it to be the right thing and love righteousness over evil.  It needs to become our character to do good and know and understand why goodness should prevail.  It needs to be woven into our characters by understanding it and experiencing it.  We need to learn to repent of evil and seek forgiveness of wrong doing.

So we know that free will is an essential principle in becoming more like the Father.  But if God is all powerful, all knowing, and an all loving God, why didn't he simply create us to be perfect like himself from the beginning.  Why put us through all the pain and suffering that sin creates.  Why not just skip that part and create us to be perfect so that we are just like him?  I will cover this on my next post.


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## Mickiel (Jul 4, 2016)

There is no such thing as free will;

The Lake of Fire - Part 15


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## onefour1 (Jul 4, 2016)

I reject the author of "The Lake of Fire - Part 15"s premise.  Free will, though limited does exist.  All that is needed to have a degree of free will is to have more than one option to make a decision upon.  If I tell my boy that if he cleans his  room he will get a treat or if he doesn't he will not get a treat, then he has free will within that limited choice.  If he did not have free will, he would not have a choice at all but would be forced to do one of the two.  But a choice is given to him with two options. No choice would be to not have any other option.  The author makes a mistake is trying to say that unless you can create your own choices without any consequence, then you have not free choice at all.  In my example the boy is free to make his own decision between the two options.  What would it be like if we all lived in a country where you could make your own choice to do absolutely anything you dream up without consequence?  It would be nothing but pure chaos.  Some would choose to abuse others and subject them to themselves.  Certainly their free will would limit the choices of others.  The sensible thing is to have a rule of law that is equitable for all so that the choices of some would not infringe on others.  God rules in the heaven above and in the earth beneath.  He has fair and equitable laws that promote the greatest degree of happiness and peace among those who follow the law.  For those who choose not to follow the law, they are not allowed in his kingdom but must go to another kingdom which is inferior to live among those who are like beings.  God will not allow the unrestrained free will of some to overthrow his kingdom of righteousness.  Although God will maintain a universe of justice, equity, mercy, etc.  He still gives those who are not at his level the chance to come up to his level and live in his kingdom.  But they must learn to live according to the laws of his kingdom.  If not, they will be sent to an inferior kingdom.  They are given the choice between accepting a more free and higher degree of glory within the confines of his eternal law, or they are sent to a kingdom to be among those who reject the higher law and seek to be a law unto themselves.  But God will not allow those who do not live according to his celestial law to overthrow his kingdom.  He must maintain truth, justice, equity, love, mercy, kindness, etc as the ruling law of the universe.  Otherwise there would be no heaven to speak of.  Having limited choice is still free will as long as there is a choice to be made.  On the other hand, unlimited free will without consequence only leads to chaos in the universe.  I would at a later time want to make a thread specifically on the "Lake of Fire - Part 15" article since I find it to be a troublesome concept of denying the truth of having free choice though those choices are limited and are put before us by another.


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## Mickiel (Jul 5, 2016)

I don't see free will myself.


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## kjw47 (Jul 5, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> I have asked myself why a God would need a hell, ( and by hell I mean the Christian version of it). I mean here this great being of life and love , is said to have created a place of eternal misery? And something is just not right with that, because it makes no sense at all. But a lot of things in religion make no sense, but religion rains on humanity, getting all of our consciousness wet in one manner or another.
> 
> My view of God, and I don't know God, have never seen him or heard his voice; is a view that I know is already distorted by many things; but I view him as merciful, loving, kind, forgiving, longsuffering, all the things that this Christian hell is not. So I don't think this hell is God's creation, I think the Christians created it. I think this eternal hell punishing is what Christians would do with unbelievers, not God. I think its moreso what the Christians want.
> 
> Why would God make an eternal monument out of evil? For what? Why would such a being of great power of change, co-exist with misery forever? Why? I can't see it. I think something is seriously wrong with this myopic view of hell! The powers that exist which can seduce the consciousness of humanity into believing nonsense, is simply stunning.




Facts of reality = the Hebrew word-SHEOL = the Greek word- HADES= the English word-HELL-- (Sheol and Hades translate--the grave, thus so does hell.
God set before all--life or death--nothing else. Deuteronomy 30:19) --- ones actions prove their choice---  either one lives now to do Gods will( Matt 7:21) or they live now to do their own will.


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## onefour1 (Jul 5, 2016)

We've already seen that in order for us to become more like God, we need to have free will.  God is a being of free will and you cannot become like him without having free will yourself.  God is a being who chooses to do what is right and good continuously.  But if God is all powerful, all knowing, and an all loving God, then why didn't he create us to be just like himself?  Why didn't he create us with a perfect knowledge of all things, and with a loving heart to love all and want the best for all mankind?  Why hasn't he endowed  us with a desire to always choose the right and have power to do all that He can do?  The reason is because we too are eternal beings.  There has never been a time when all of us did not exist in some form or another.  This is a doctrine that was lost but has, in these latter days, been restored.  If the part of man that makes choices and thinks for himself has always existed then it was impossible for God to create that which is self existent.  You cannot create something that has always existed.  Why, because it already exists.  It has always existed.  This doctrine comes from The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. 

*Doctrine and Covenants 93:29*
29 Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be.

This verse tells us that man was also in the beginning with God.  HIs Intelligence, or what is known as light and true, was not created or made and neither indeed can be.

*Abraham 3:18*
18 Howbeit that he made the greater star; as, also, if there be two spirits, and one shall be more intelligent than the other, yet these two spirits, notwithstanding one is more intelligent than the other, have no beginning; they existed before, they shall have no end, they shall exist after, for they are gnolaum, or eternal.

Mankind has a base intelligence that is co-eternal with God.  The intelligences of man have always existed and will always exist.  God did not make man's intelligence.  It cannot be created or made.  There never was a time when you or I did not exist.  However, God did choose from among these intelligences many to become his spiritually begotten sons and daughters.  Those spirits who were faithful to their Father in heaven through their free will, were allowed to continue to progress to become more like the Father.  Those who rebelled were cast out of heaven and were denied further progression.  This is what we've seen in the story of Satan and his followers.  Not only were they cast out of heaven, but they were denied the opportunity to further progress due to their rebellion.  One of the things that was denied them was the opportunity to receive a body.  All those who were faithful in the pre-mortal existence were allowed to come to this earth and receive a body.  They were at one time valiant spirits of God and kept their first estate.  Regarding those who did not keep their first estate in the pre-mortal existence:

*Jude 1:6*
6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

This is the punishment of those who had open rebellion against the father with full knowledge of his existence and goodness.

The reason there is evil in the world is because God placed us on this earth to test us to see if we would do good in and of ourselves.  He placed a vale over our minds so that we could not remember the pre-mortal existence.  Thus we were to walk by faith.  When my kids are around their parents they are quite obedient.  But sometimes when the parents are away, the kids do mischief.  God wants to know who is willing to choose good, in and of himself when he is not in their presence and when they don't have a perfect knowledge of him.  He is testing us to see if we will do good and follow him even when we don't have any recollection of him.  Those who develop their character and learn to choose good of their own volition and gravitate toward him are great spirits. This earth life is our second estate.

*Abraham 3:26*
26 And they who keep their first estate shall be added upon; and they who keep not their first estate shall not have glory in the same kingdom with those who keep their first estate; and they who keep their second estate shall have glory added upon their heads for ever and ever.

We are from an eternity past imperfect beings.  We occasionally do evil.  Some of us are very evil.  Some of us do more evil that good.  Some of us do more good that evil.  Some people are very good.  But God realized this and knowing that we, as imperfect beings, would fall and not live a law worthy of his kingdom.  According to his law, if we sin, we then fall short of being able to enter his kingdom.  God knew that all of us would fall short due to our imperfections.  This is why he provided a Christ so that we could repent of our sins and obtain a remission of them through Jesus Christ.  This life is a temporary state.  All men will resurrect and be given immortality.  We come to this earth to receive a body just as Jesus did.  We all will resurrect just as Jesus did.  But not all will be granted access into the kingdom heaven.  Only those who learn to change their life for the good and learn to love God and one another and keep the commandments of God.

*Acts 24:15*
15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.

*Doctrine and Covenants 76:17*
17 And shall come forth; they who have done good, in the resurrection of the just; and they who have done evil, in the resurrection of the unjust.

*Matthew 7:21*
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Because it is essential for man to have free will to be like God, and because man is an eternal being and could not be created out of nothing, God cannot make man perfect but has to teach him and bring him along through making good choices.  As man strives for perfection, he becomes more like his Father in heaven.  And if he proves to be a good person then the blood of Christ will cleanse him of his sins to enter into the kingdom of heaven.  We will all stand before God to be judged according to our works.  Jesus will save all mankind from an eternal death by granting them resurrection and immortality.  But not everyone will enter the kingdom of heaven which is also known as eternal life.  Only those who can live a celestial law and love God and his eternal truths will be allowed into his kingdom.  The rest will go to various other kingdom which God has prepared for them based on their judgment.

Regarding those who have died without a knowledge of Jesus Christ will have a chance in the world of spirits once they are dead to hear the gospel.  They must receive the saving ordinance from those who are still living on this earth but they will be preached to in the spirit world before they are brought to judgment.  This why there have been baptisms for the dead and why the spirits in spirit prison are preached to.


*1 Corinthians 15:29*
29 Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?

*1 Peter 3:18-20*
18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.


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## yiostheoy (Jul 6, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> I don't see free will myself.


God and the U.S. Constitutional Founders gave you freewill and you can do or try to do anything that pleases you.

You might get arrested and tried and put into prison depending on your choices, but still you were given the gift.

That's what free will is.

You do have it.

Slaves do not have it.

If you are not American then you are a slave.

If you are American then you have free will.

God does not interfere.  Not at all.


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## yiostheoy (Jul 6, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> In my view  God will forgive and change the nature and life of all murderers ,  rapist , robbers and any other sinner;  hell is just the grave plain and simple. And we humans need that change ; it is our destiny ; we all make it.


Your Faerie Godmother might do that.

But I seriously doubt that a just omniscient Being would.

But you keep dreaming.


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## kjw47 (Jul 6, 2016)

yiostheoy said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > I don't see free will myself.
> ...





God gives free will---govts make you pay $ to exercise your free will-- if I want to go fishing( which God gave us free) govts make you pay $ to be able to go legally. Americans have free will to sin.


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## The Irish Ram (Jul 6, 2016)

God needs a hell because fallen angels and Satan are spirit.  They are eternal. Jesus never kills Satan, he chains him for 1,000 years, ultimately sentencing him to the Lake of Fire for eternity.  Those humans who choose to die draped in their sin rather than to accept the gift of a sin free record by way of Christ, will reside in Hell until their name is called on the docket at the White Throne Judgment.  There they will plead their case.

Hell was not created for humans, but humans can get there if they choose.


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## kjw47 (Jul 7, 2016)

The Irish Ram said:


> God needs a hell because fallen angels and Satan are spirit.  They are eternal. Jesus never kills Satan, he chains him for 1,000 years, ultimately sentencing him to the Lake of Fire for eternity.  Those humans who choose to die draped in their sin rather than to accept the gift of a sin free record by way of Christ, will reside in Hell until their name is called on the docket at the White Throne Judgment.  There they will plead their case.
> 
> Hell was not created for humans, but humans can get there if they choose.





Not one has a sin free record-- if you think so, then explain to all why the apostles all died and paid their own wages of sin as have all who have died. The wages of sin= death--
The ones changed in the twinkling of an eye( little flock) during the tribulation will never taste death--these are covered over by Jesus' death and the great multitude who will be brought through Har-mageddon on earth are covered as well.


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## The Irish Ram (Jul 7, 2016)

kjw47 said:


> The Irish Ram said:
> 
> 
> > God needs a hell because fallen angels and Satan are spirit.  They are eternal. Jesus never kills Satan, he chains him for 1,000 years, ultimately sentencing him to the Lake of Fire for eternity.  Those humans who choose to die draped in their sin rather than to accept the gift of a sin free record by way of Christ, will reside in Hell until their name is called on the docket at the White Throne Judgment.  There they will plead their case.
> ...



Correct. No one has a sin free record.  Sin is a blood issue and is passed down from generation to generation.  That is where the pure blood of Christ comes in.  Jews covered their sin temporarily with animal blood.  Christ's blood removes your sin completely, once and for all.  That is how we are given direct access to the Father again, no veil required. ( That veil in the Temple was torn in half during the earthquake while Christ hung on the cross.) If you accept that Christ died for your sins then God remembers your sin no more.
It is appointed to every man to die once.  And we all do.  It is the second death that Christians escape.

The twinkling of an eye is approx. 8.23 milliseconds.  That is how long the rapture will take.  It is debatable as to it happening before the trib period, or during the first 3 and 1/2 years into the 7 year trib. period.  We do know that it  happens BEFORE the anti-Christ sits in the Holy of Holies  and declares himself God. Because that is when all hell breaks loose. God's children are out of here before that happens because God's children are not appointed to God's wrath.  And wrath is coming. 

The only ones covered during Armageddon are the Messianic Jews that God seals to protect them from death.  144,000 of them from the 12 tribes of Israel.  12,000 from each tribe. 
Consider who remains.  If the rapture removes those belonging to Christ,  then what is left?  Those who follow the Anti-Christ, and have the mark, and the Jews.  Only a remnant of Jews will be alive when Christ returns.  Christ will judge the Nations according to their treatment of the Jews following the final battle at Har Megido.  He never leaves us after that.


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## kjw47 (Jul 7, 2016)

The Irish Ram said:


> kjw47 said:
> 
> 
> > The Irish Ram said:
> ...




The only ones going to heaven are the little flock( Luke 12:32) - these are the bride of Christ= 144,000
The great multitude are promised-EARTH( Matt 5:5) from Jesus and will be brought through into Gods kingdom. Proverbs 2:21-22--Matt 24:22

It does not say the trib will last for 7 years.

These accepted that Jesus died for them( Matt 7:22-23) but as it shows--no matter what they did in Jesus name, or how great they thought their love for him is,  if they practice a sin( worker of iniquity)--Jesus says --he never even knew them. this is judgement time--many Jaws will be dropped to the floor-believing as you do.


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## The Irish Ram (Jul 7, 2016)

Lord.
We all sin.  We all fall short.  We all have sin.  If Christ didn't come here to remove it, then what do you think his mission was? 

1 John 2:2
My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you will not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate before the Father—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. He Himself is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not for ours alone, but also for the sins of the whole world. By this we can be sure that we have come to know Him: if we keep His commandments.…

Here are Christ's commandments:
Love our Father
Love each other
Do that and you have kept the Law.  Christ takes care of the rest.  So repent of your sins (re-pent< return to the highest level)  where you belong and let Christ handle Satan's charges against you.


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## The Irish Ram (Jul 7, 2016)

kjw47 said:


> The Irish Ram said:
> 
> 
> > kjw47 said:
> ...



Then Paul lied. He said absent from the body, present with the Lord. 
Before Christ paid for the sins of those who had died before His arrival,  those souls went to Abraham's bosom.  That is where Christ went for 3 days following His work on the cross.  He preached to those in Hades, and brought those in Abraham's bosom with Him when he returned 3 days later.  They accompanied Christ on his resurrection and ascension. 
* Matthew 27:52-53*
52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

Abraham's bosom is no longer necessary.  Now we go straight up if we belong to Christ.


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## kjw47 (Jul 7, 2016)

The Irish Ram said:


> kjw47 said:
> 
> 
> > The Irish Ram said:
> ...




there was a big earthquake and flooding rains upon the death of Jesus--bodies washed out of their graves--it does not say they were resurrected. Yes they appeared floating in the waters that carried them.
Here is 100% proof trinity religions do not speak truth

You see clearly Jesus was in Hades for 3 days correct?
In every trinity translsation on earth they have this error

truly I tell you, today you will be with me in Paradise= error( comma placement to fit dogma)

truly I tell you today, you will be with me in Paradise= correct---Jesus was in Hades for 3 days, he could not be in paradise on the first day.

trinity translations are filled with errors like this to fit false council dogmas. misleading those away from God. because one cannot accomplish this-John 4:22-24 when they are taught untruths.


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## The Irish Ram (Jul 7, 2016)

Pure bullshit.  The sky went dark at noon (no, it was not an eclipse, that was impossible given the location of the moon and the sun at Passover.)  Scholars of the day and afterwards debated the cause of the event,  ruling out eclipse. There was no flood recorded on that Passover.  By no one anywhere.  
And record keeping was important to the Jew.  We actually know how many pilgrims were in the city, during that Passover because they kept tally of the animals that were sacrificed. The earthquake opened only the graves of those returning with Christ, because those souls needed their now glorified bodies back.  They have them to this day, as does Christ.
And it *does* say they were resurrected with Christ.  I pointed that out already in Matthew. 
Christ went to Abraham's bosom, which was also referred to as Paradise, and the thief went with him.  He spoke to those in Hades across the chasm that separated the two.


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## Youwerecreated (Jul 8, 2016)

TNHarley said:


> saveliberty said:
> 
> 
> > Because he loved enough to give the gift of freewill.  He didn't want robots following a scripted life.  .
> ...



Not all believe in the wrong interpretation of Hell in the bible. Hell is nothing but the world of the dead which is where men,women and children will be resurrected from.


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## kjw47 (Jul 8, 2016)

The Irish Ram said:


> Pure bullshit.  The sky went dark at noon (no, it was not an eclipse, that was impossible given the location of the moon and the sun at Passover.)  Scholars of the day and afterwards debated the cause of the event,  ruling out eclipse. There was no flood recorded on that Passover.  By no one anywhere.
> And record keeping was important to the Jew.  We actually know how many pilgrims were in the city, during that Passover because they kept tally of the animals that were sacrificed. The earthquake opened only the graves of those returning with Christ, because those souls needed their now glorified bodies back.  They have them to this day, as does Christ.
> And it *does* say they were resurrected with Christ.  I pointed that out already in Matthew.
> Christ went to Abraham's bosom, which was also referred to as Paradise, and the thief went with him.  He spoke to those in Hades across the chasm that separated the two.





If you knew bible chronology--Its 100% fact--the first resurrection does not occur until this event takes place-Rev 6( war in heaven)--see he receives his crown--- that occurs before the first resurrection--and the other resurrection doesn't occur until post Har-mageddon.

Now how can Jesus actually speak to the dead when the bible is clear-- all thought stops upon ones death. It was symbolism being spoken of while he was in Hades. Not to mention the other fact--Eden translates-paradise--Paradise Jesus spoke about is here= new Earth. It most certainly is not in Hades. Hades translates--the grave. That is where Jesus was for 3 days.


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## kjw47 (Jul 8, 2016)

The Irish Ram said:


> Lord.
> We all sin.  We all fall short.  We all have sin.  If Christ didn't come here to remove it, then what do you think his mission was?
> 
> 1 John 2:2
> ...




Jesus gave us 100,s of teachings--he meant every single one of them. Those that love him, learn and apply every single one.


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## Mickiel (Jul 9, 2016)

Why would God need a hell , Christians are embarrasing enough to him.


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## onefour1 (Jul 9, 2016)

If God cannot make/create man to be perfect due to man's eternal nature and if free will is an eternal principal, then in order for God to have a heavenly place to dwell, i.e. the kingdom of heaven, he would need to keep those souls out of his kingdom who are not willing to live a celestial law.  This would also apply to lower kingdoms.  If a being is not willing to abide by the law of a lesser kingdom, he would need to be kept out of that kingdom as well.  For those who are not willing to abide by any law of a kingdom, a place would need to be prepared where these may dwell.  There are three main kingdoms of varying glory, the celestial kingdom, the terrestrial kingdom, and the telestial kingdom.  Those who do not inherit a kingdom of glory are sent to outer darkness.  Such things were touched upon by Paul to the Corinthians in 1Corinthians 15.  But these things have been revealed unto us in these latter-days.

Doctrine and Covenants 76
1 Hear, O ye heavens, and give ear, O earth, and rejoice ye inhabitants thereof, for the Lord is God, and beside him there is no Savior.
2 Great is his wisdom, marvelous are his ways, and the extent of his doings none can find out.
3 His purposes fail not, neither are there any who can stay his hand.
4 From eternity to eternity he is the same, and his years never fail.
5 For thus saith the Lord—I, the Lord, am merciful and gracious unto those who fear me, and delight to honor those who serve me in righteousness and in truth unto the end.
6 Great shall be their reward and eternal shall be their glory.
7 And to them will I reveal all mysteries, yea, all the hidden mysteries of my kingdom from days of old, and for ages to come, will I make known unto them the good pleasure of my will concerning all things pertaining to my kingdom.
8 Yea, even the wonders of eternity shall they know, and things to come will I show them, even the things of many generations.
9 And their wisdom shall be great, and their understanding reach to heaven; and before them the wisdom of the wise shall perish, and the understanding of the prudent shall come to naught.
10 For by my Spirit will I enlighten them, and by my power will I make known unto them the secrets of my will—yea, even those things which eye has not seen, nor ear heard, nor yet entered into the heart of man.
11 We, Joseph Smith, Jun., and Sidney Rigdon, being in the Spirit on the sixteenth day of February, in the year of our Lord one thousand eight hundred and thirty-two—
12 By the power of the Spirit our eyes were opened and our understandings were enlightened, so as to see and understand the things of God—
13 Even those things which were from the beginning before the world was, which were ordained of the Father, through his Only Begotten Son, who was in the bosom of the Father, even from the beginning;
14 Of whom we bear record; and the record which we bear is the fulness of the gospel of Jesus Christ, who is the Son, whom we saw and with whom we conversed in the heavenly vision.
15 For while we were doing the work of translation, which the Lord had appointed unto us, we came to the twenty-ninth verse of the fifth chapter of John, which was given unto us as follows—
16 Speaking of the resurrection of the dead, concerning those who shall hear the voice of the Son of Man:
17 And shall come forth; they who have done good, in the resurrection of the just; and they who have done evil, in the resurrection of the unjust.
18 Now this caused us to marvel, for it was given unto us of the Spirit.
19 And while we meditated upon these things, the Lord touched the eyes of our understandings and they were opened, and the glory of the Lord shone round about.
20 And we beheld the glory of the Son, on the right hand of the Father, and received of his fulness;
21 And saw the holy angels, and them who are sanctified before his throne, worshiping God, and the Lamb, who worship him forever and ever.
22 And now, after the many testimonies which have been given of him, this is the testimony, last of all, which we give of him: That he lives!
23 For we saw him, even on the right hand of God; and we heard the voice bearing record that he is the Only Begotten of the Father—
24 That by him, and through him, and of him, the worlds are and were created, and the inhabitants thereof are begotten sons and daughters unto God.
25 And this we saw also, and bear record, that an angel of God who was in authority in the presence of God, who rebelled against the Only Begotten Son whom the Father loved and who was in the bosom of the Father, was thrust down from the presence of God and the Son,
26 And was called Perdition, for the heavens wept over him—he was Lucifer, a son of the morning.
27 And we beheld, and lo, he is fallen! is fallen, even a son of the morning!
28 And while we were yet in the Spirit, the Lord commanded us that we should write the vision; for we beheld Satan, that old serpent, even the devil, who rebelled against God, and sought to take the kingdom of our God and his Christ—
29 Wherefore, he maketh war with the saints of God, and encompasseth them round about.
30 And we saw a vision of the sufferings of those with whom he made war and overcame, for thus came the voice of the Lord unto us:
31 Thus saith the Lord concerning all those who know my power, and have been made partakers thereof, and suffered themselves through the power of the devil to be overcome, and to deny the truth and defy my power—
32 They are they who are the sons of perdition, of whom I say that it had been better for them never to have been born;
33 For they are vessels of wrath, doomed to suffer the wrath of God, with the devil and his angels in eternity;
34 Concerning whom I have said there is no forgiveness in this world nor in the world to come—
35 Having denied the Holy Spirit after having received it, and having denied the Only Begotten Son of the Father, having crucified him unto themselves and put him to an open shame.
36 These are they who shall go away into the lake of fire and brimstone, with the devil and his angels—
37 And the only ones on whom the second death shall have any power;
38 Yea, verily, the only ones who shall not be redeemed in the due time of the Lord, after the sufferings of his wrath.
39 For all the rest shall be brought forth by the resurrection of the dead, through the triumph and the glory of the Lamb, who was slain, who was in the bosom of the Father before the worlds were made.
40 And this is the gospel, the glad tidings, which the voice out of the heavens bore record unto us—
41 That he came into the world, even Jesus, to be crucified for the world, and to bear the sins of the world, and to sanctify the world, and to cleanse it from all unrighteousness;
42 That through him all might be saved whom the Father had put into his power and made by him;
43 Who glorifies the Father, and saves all the works of his hands, except those sons of perdition who deny the Son after the Father has revealed him.
44 Wherefore, he saves all except them—they shall go away into everlasting punishment, which is endless punishment, which is eternal punishment, to reign with the devil and his angels in eternity, where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched, which is their torment—
45 And the end thereof, neither the place thereof, nor their torment, no man knows;
46 Neither was it revealed, neither is, neither will be revealed unto man, except to them who are made partakers thereof;
47 Nevertheless, I, the Lord, show it by vision unto many, but straightway shut it up again;
48 Wherefore, the end, the width, the height, the depth, and the misery thereof, they understand not, neither any man except those who are ordained unto this condemnation.
49 And we heard the voice, saying: Write the vision, for lo, this is the end of the vision of the sufferings of the ungodly.
50 And again we bear record—for we saw and heard, and this is the testimony of the gospel of Christ concerning them who shall come forth in the resurrection of the just—
51 They are they who received the testimony of Jesus, and believed on his name and were baptized after the manner of his burial, being buried in the water in his name, and this according to the commandment which he has given—
52 That by keeping the commandments they might be washed and cleansed from all their sins, and receive the Holy Spirit by the laying on of the hands of him who is ordained and sealed unto this power;
53 And who overcome by faith, and are sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, which the Father sheds forth upon all those who are just and true.
54 They are they who are the church of the Firstborn.
55 They are they into whose hands the Father has given all things—
56 They are they who are priests and kings, who have received of his fulness, and of his glory;
57 And are priests of the Most High, after the order of Melchizedek, which was after the order of Enoch, which was after the order of the Only Begotten Son.
58 Wherefore, as it is written, they are gods, even the sons of God—
59 Wherefore, all things are theirs, whether life or death, or things present, or things to come, all are theirs and they are Christ’s, and Christ is God’s.
60 And they shall overcome all things.
61 Wherefore, let no man glory in man, but rather let him glory in God, who shall subdue all enemies under his feet.
62 These shall dwell in the presence of God and his Christ forever and ever.
63 These are they whom he shall bring with him, when he shall come in the clouds of heaven to reign on the earth over his people.
64 These are they who shall have part in the first resurrection.
65 These are they who shall come forth in the resurrection of the just.
66 These are they who are come unto Mount Zion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly place, the holiest of all.
67 These are they who have come to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of Enoch, and of the Firstborn.
68 These are they whose names are written in heaven, where God and Christ are the judge of all.
69 These are they who are just men made perfect through Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, who wrought out this perfect atonement through the shedding of his own blood.
70 These are they whose bodies are celestial, whose glory is that of the sun, even the glory of God, the highest of all, whose glory the sun of the firmament is written of as being typical.
71 And again, we saw the terrestrial world, and behold and lo, these are they who are of the terrestrial, whose glory differs from that of the church of the Firstborn who have received the fulness of the Father, even as that of the moon differs from the sun in the firmament.
72 Behold, these are they who died without law;
73 And also they who are the spirits of men kept in prison, whom the Son visited, and preached the gospel unto them, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh;
74 Who received not the testimony of Jesus in the flesh, but afterwards received it.
75 These are they who are honorable men of the earth, who were blinded by the craftiness of men.
76 These are they who receive of his glory, but not of his fulness.
77 These are they who receive of the presence of the Son, but not of the fulness of the Father.
78 Wherefore, they are bodies terrestrial, and not bodies celestial, and differ in glory as the moon differs from the sun.
79 These are they who are not valiant in the testimony of Jesus; wherefore, they obtain not the crown over the kingdom of our God.
80 And now this is the end of the vision which we saw of the terrestrial, that the Lord commanded us to write while we were yet in the Spirit.
81 And again, we saw the glory of the telestial, which glory is that of the lesser, even as the glory of the stars differs from that of the glory of the moon in the firmament.
82 These are they who received not the gospel of Christ, neither the testimony of Jesus.
83 These are they who deny not the Holy Spirit.
84 These are they who are thrust down to hell.
85 These are they who shall not be redeemed from the devil until the last resurrection, until the Lord, even Christ the Lamb, shall have finished his work.
86 These are they who receive not of his fulness in the eternal world, but of the Holy Spirit through the ministration of the terrestrial;
87 And the terrestrial through the ministration of the celestial.
88 And also the telestial receive it of the administering of angels who are appointed to minister for them, or who are appointed to be ministering spirits for them; for they shall be heirs of salvation.
89 And thus we saw, in the heavenly vision, the glory of the telestial, which surpasses all understanding;
90 And no man knows it except him to whom God has revealed it.
91 And thus we saw the glory of the terrestrial which excels in all things the glory of the telestial, even in glory, and in power, and in might, and in dominion.
92 And thus we saw the glory of the celestial, which excels in all things—where God, even the Father, reigns upon his throne forever and ever;
93 Before whose throne all things bow in humble reverence, and give him glory forever and ever.
94 They who dwell in his presence are the church of the Firstborn; and they see as they are seen, and know as they are known, having received of his fulness and of his grace;
95 And he makes them equal in power, and in might, and in dominion.
96 And the glory of the celestial is one, even as the glory of the sun is one.
97 And the glory of the terrestrial is one, even as the glory of the moon is one.
98 And the glory of the telestial is one, even as the glory of the stars is one; for as one star differs from another star in glory, even so differs one from another in glory in the telestial world;
99 For these are they who are of Paul, and of Apollos, and of Cephas.
100 These are they who say they are some of one and some of another—some of Christ and some of John, and some of Moses, and some of Elias, and some of Esaias, and some of Isaiah, and some of Enoch;
101 But received not the gospel, neither the testimony of Jesus, neither the prophets, neither the everlasting covenant.
102 Last of all, these all are they who will not be gathered with the saints, to be caught up unto the church of the Firstborn, and received into the cloud.
103 These are they who are liars, and sorcerers, and adulterers, and whoremongers, and whosoever loves and makes a lie.
104 These are they who suffer the wrath of God on earth.
105 These are they who suffer the vengeance of eternal fire.
106 These are they who are cast down to hell and suffer the wrath of Almighty God, until the fulness of times, when Christ shall have subdued all enemies under his feet, and shall have perfected his work;
107 When he shall deliver up the kingdom, and present it unto the Father, spotless, saying: I have overcome and have trodden the wine-press alone, even the wine-press of the fierceness of the wrath of Almighty God.
108 Then shall he be crowned with the crown of his glory, to sit on the throne of his power to reign forever and ever.
109 But behold, and lo, we saw the glory and the inhabitants of the telestial world, that they were as innumerable as the stars in the firmament of heaven, or as the sand upon the seashore;
110 And heard the voice of the Lord saying: These all shall bow the knee, and every tongue shall confess to him who sits upon the throne forever and ever;
111 For they shall be judged according to their works, and every man shall receive according to his own works, his own dominion, in the mansions which are prepared;
112 And they shall be servants of the Most High; but where God and Christ dwell they cannot come, worlds without end.
113 This is the end of the vision which we saw, which we were commanded to write while we were yet in the Spirit.
114 But great and marvelous are the works of the Lord, and the mysteries of his kingdom which he showed unto us, which surpass all understanding in glory, and in might, and in dominion;
115 Which he commanded us we should not write while we were yet in the Spirit, and are not lawful for man to utter;
116 Neither is man capable to make them known, for they are only to be seen and understood by the power of the Holy Spirit, which God bestows on those who love him, and purify themselves before him;
117 To whom he grants this privilege of seeing and knowing for themselves;
118 That through the power and manifestation of the Spirit, while in the flesh, they may be able to bear his presence in the world of glory.
119 And to God and the Lamb be glory, and honor, and dominion forever and ever. Amen.


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## Mickiel (Jul 11, 2016)

There are no laws in the Kingdom of God, none are needed; there is no free will there either;only God's will.


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## Mickiel (Jul 14, 2016)

Why would God need a hell, when he could punish people by putting them in a church; what better way to confuse them?


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## kjw47 (Jul 14, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> Why would God need a hell, when he could punish people by putting them in a church; what better way to confuse them?




Confusion is the last thing they need. 99% live in it daily.


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## Mickiel (Jul 16, 2016)

kjw47 said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > Why would God need a hell, when he could punish people by putting them in a church; what better way to confuse them?
> ...




Its the way of life for now. And the church or religions cannot escape it.


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## Mickiel (Jul 19, 2016)

Why would God solicit a religion to condemn us sinners?


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## Book of Jeremiah (Jul 19, 2016)

A creature remaining at enmity against God must expect to dwell for ever with the devils in hell; where can it dwell but where other rebels are confined in chains? 
Some have staggered over the doctrine of eternal punishment, because they could not see how that could be consistent with God’s goodness. I have only one question to ask concerning that or any other doctrine,
—Does God reveal it in the Scriptures? 

Then, I believe it, and leave to him the vindication of his own consistency. 
-Charles Spurgeon


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## Book of Jeremiah (Jul 19, 2016)

The eternity of punishment is a thought which crushes the heart. 
You have buried the man but you have not buried his sins. His sins live, and are immortal; they have gone before him to judgment, or they will follow after him to bear their witness as to the evil of his heart and the rebellion of his life. 

The Lord is slow to anger, but when he is once aroused to it, as he will be against those who finally reject his Son, he will put forth all his omnipotence to crush his enemies. “Consider this,” saith he, “ye that forget God, lest I tear you in pieces, and there be none to deliver.” It will be no trifle to fall into the hands of the living God. He will by no means clear the guilty. For ever must his anger burn. We have nothing in Scripture to warrant the hope that God’s wrath against evil doers will ever come to an end. Oh, the wrath to come! The wrath 
to come! The wrath which after ages and ages will still be to come, and still to come, and still to come! - Charles Spurgeon

It needs a whole eternity to set forth, in hell, all the justice of God in the punishment of sin. - Charles Spurgeon

Habits Through Hell


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## Book of Jeremiah (Jul 19, 2016)

He speaks of the “fire that never shall be quenched.” Now, do not begin telling me that that is metaphorical fire: who cares for that? If a man were to threaten to give me a metaphorical blow on the head, I should care very little about it; he would be welcome to give me as many as he pleased. And what say the wicked? “We do not care about metaphorical fires.” But they are real, sir—yes, as real as yourself. There is a real fire in hell, as truly as you have now a real body—a fire exactly like that which we have on earth in everything except this—that it will not consume, though it will torture you. 

You have seen the asbestos lying in the fire red hot, but when you take it out it is unconsumed. So your body will be prepared by God in such a way that it will burn for ever without being consumed; it will lie, not as you consider, in metaphorical fire, but in actual flame. -  Charles Spurgeon

Habits Through Hell


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## Book of Jeremiah (Jul 19, 2016)

Habits Through Hell

Sinners in hell are not the fools they were on earth; in hell they do not laugh at
everlasting burnings; in the pit they do not despise the words, “eternal fire.” The worm that never dieth, when it is gnawing, gnaws out all joke and laughter; you may despise God now, and despise me now for what I say, but death will change your note.

So will it be with any of you who have ridiculed the gospel of Christ, you will find in the great and terrible day of the Lord, that your laughter shall have no power over death, and win you no reprieve from the agonies of hell. There will be no room for infidelity in that tremendous day. God will be all too real to you when he tears you in pieces, and there is none to deliver; and the judgment will be all too real when the thunder claps shall wake the dead, and the books shall be opened and read by the blaze of lightning, and the sentence shall be pronounced, “Depart, ye cursed!” - Charles Spurgeon


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## Book of Jeremiah (Jul 19, 2016)

Remember, you can be laughed into hell, but you can never be laughed out of it. 
-Charles Spurgeon


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## Book of Jeremiah (Jul 19, 2016)

I am not like yon flatterers who tell you that there is a little hell and a little God, 
from which you naturally infer that you may live as you like. Both you and they will perish everlastingly if you believe them. There is a dreadful hell, for there is a righteous God. - Charles Spurgeon


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## Book of Jeremiah (Jul 19, 2016)

There is a place where there is a dreadful prayer-meeting every day, and every hour in the day; a prayer-meeting where all the attendants pray,—not merely one, but all; and they pray, too, with sighs, and groans, and tears; and yet they are never heard. That prayer-meeting is in hell. There is a begging meeting there, indeed. Oh, that there were on earth half the prayer there will be there! Oh, that the tears shed in eternity had but been shed in time! Oh, that the agony that the lost ones now feel had but been felt beforehand! Oh, that they had repented ere their life was ended!
Oh, that their hearts had been made tender before the terrible fire of judgment had melted them!  - Charles Spurgeon

No human ministry ever gave such graphic and harrowing descriptions of hell as Christ has given. You say you believe the words of Jesus; you do not suspect a loving Saviour of exaggeration. 

Oh, my hearers, I ask you now in the name of God, if it be true, why do ye not believe it? You do not believe it; that is clear enough. Would you sit quietly in your seat this morning, young man, if you really believed that in one instant you may be in hell? Old man, old in years and old in sin, would you be as quiet in your soul to-day as you are if you knew and believed that there is but a step between you and the flames? - Charles Spurgeon


Habits Through Hell


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## Mickiel (Jul 19, 2016)

There is a place in the Christian imagination that is meant to scare you into joining their religion ;  its called hell.

23 Minutes In Hell


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## Book of Jeremiah (Jul 19, 2016)

Those who are evermore making light of hell are probably doing it in the hope of making it easy for themselves. - Charles Spurgeon


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## Book of Jeremiah (Jul 19, 2016)

The worst sort of clever men are those who know better than the Bible and are so learned that they believe that the world had no Maker, and that men are only 
monkeys with their tails rubbed off. - Charles Spurgeon

Speak of evolution,—here it is,—“When lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.” Darkness never begets light, filth never creates purity, hell never yields heaven, and depravity never produces grace. - Charles Spurgeon

Escapism Through Eyeservice


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## Book of Jeremiah (Jul 19, 2016)

Everybody believes in infallibility somewhere. A Romanist believes in an infallible Pope, and a great philosopher believes in his infallible self; he knows that he is right. I believe in this infallible Book, and in the infallible God; and I ask any of you, who are troubled, and worried, and tossed to and fro because of what some heretic or skeptic has said, to “walk in the light of the Lord,” and to be perfectly satisfied as to the revelation he has given us in his Word.
- Charles Spurgeon


Bible Gateway passage: Psalm 119:105 - King James Version

Idolatry Through Isolationism


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## Mickiel (Jul 19, 2016)

The Christian belief in eternal hell punishing is basically insanity;

Bible Reality Check--A Case Against Hell


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## Book of Jeremiah (Jul 19, 2016)

IONYSIUS the tyrant king of Syracuse, was pronounced by Damocles the flatterer, the happiest man on earth. The king, in order to convince him of his mistake, invited Damocles to a banquet, and caused him to be robed and treated as a sovereign. During the entertainment, a sword hung suspended by a single horsehair from the ceiling, over the head of Damocles; and thus was typified the happiness of a tyrant.






Unconverted sinner, behold thyself in the above picture. Thou fanciest that thou art happy. Ah! thou art woefully deceiving thyself. Thy pleasures are short in duration! Thou art clothed in borrowed garments of vanity, and art seated at the banquet table of thy pleasures, with the sword of Divine judgment suspended over thine head by a slender thread. (See Ecclesiastes 9:9, and Luke 12:16, 21.) 

Any moment thou mayest be cut down by the hand of death, and be hurried all unprepared before the judgment seat of Christ. Oh! be no longer blinded; but turn thine eyes upward and see thy danger. Know that thou art a sinner: "for all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God." (Rom. 3:23.) 

As a sinner thou art already condemned. The curse of God hangs over thee, and in a moment thou mayest be in hell. Turn off thine eyes from sin and self, and look unto Jesus, who is now both able and willing to save even thee if thou believest on him.






When the sinner believes in the Lord Jesus Christ, he is made by sovereign grace a king and a priest unto God. He is arrayed in "the best robe," the imputed righteousness of Christ. He is enabled by faith to sit down at the King's "banquetting" table, whereon are spread the dantiest dishes, and a feast of wine. Instead of the flaming sword of justice, the "banner" of Jesus' "love" hangs "over" his head. (Canticles 2:4; Isa. 25:6; Luke 15:22, 23; Rev. 1:6.)

Such is the royal provision made by the Jehovah of hosts for every poor and needy sinner, who by simple clinging faith, trusts in his dear Son, whose "precious blood" cleanses the vilest from all sin. May infinite love glorify itself by admitting you to the marriage-feast of glory.

S&T Tract 7


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## kjw47 (Jul 19, 2016)

Jeremiah said:


> IONYSIUS the tyrant king of Syracuse, was pronounced by Damocles the flatterer, the happiest man on earth. The king, in order to convince him of his mistake, invited Damocles to a banquet, and caused him to be robed and treated as a sovereign. During the entertainment, a sword hung suspended by a single horsehair from the ceiling, over the head of Damocles; and thus was typified the happiness of a tyrant.
> 
> 
> 
> ...





Reality--God set before all--Life or death--nothing else-Duet 30:19-- both are everlasting.

Only 144,000 are bought from the earth( Rev 14:3) to rule as kings and priests alongside of Jesus --these are the anointed, the bride of Christ= the little flock( Luke 12:32)-- the great multitude will remain on earth. Prov 2:21-22-- Matt 24:22
You need a new teacher sir.


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## Mickiel (Jul 19, 2016)

Pagan Christianity;

http://oaks.nvg.org/ap3.html

A truly incredible deception.


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## Mickiel (Jul 19, 2016)

You want to  be  honest about  hell , look at this;

Honest Questions and Answers about Hell


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## kjw47 (Jul 19, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> You want to  be  honest about  hell , look at this;
> 
> Honest Questions and Answers about Hell




I already know 100% for sure there is no eternal suffering in a place called hellfire. Alls one has to do is know the true living God--most do not. This is him

Deuteronomy 32:4-- ALL of Gods ways are justice( perfect justice) an eye for an eye--perfect balance on Gods justice scales-uncorruptable--lets apply Gods scales to the teaching of eternal suffering.

On one side--70-90 years of unrepented sin---- On the other side-trillions x trillions x trillions, etc of never ending years of punishment.---- See any balance=No.

Run from those who do not know the true living God--He does not know them as well. They are teachers of darkness.


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## Mickiel (Jul 19, 2016)

kjw47 said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > You want to  be  honest about  hell , look at this;
> ...




Why should I run from them , Jesus came here to save those in darkness  , not condemn them. You just keep running , your beliefs are more dangerous than those in darkness.


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## Book of Jeremiah (Jul 19, 2016)

_
It is impossible for an evil heart, to think well of an afflicting God. 
- William Gurnall_


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## Book of Jeremiah (Jul 19, 2016)

kjw47 said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > You want to  be  honest about  hell , look at this;
> ...



Jehovah Witness Religion has taught you error.  You need to depart from it. 


Error is short lived; "a lying tongue is but for a moment"; but truth's age runs parallel with God's eternity.  - William Gurnall


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## Mickiel (Jul 19, 2016)

For your reading pleasure; the problem of evil;

http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/TheProblemofEvil.html


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## kjw47 (Jul 19, 2016)

Jeremiah said:


> kjw47 said:
> 
> 
> > Mickiel said:
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I know 100% for sure --The JW, s have Jesus as head of the congregation. It is a very unwise place to be standing in opposition to the real teachers of Jesus-Luke 10:16)


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## Book of Jeremiah (Jul 19, 2016)

"The way of transgressors is hard!" Proverbs 13:15.

The *terror *of sin. A soul in a state of sin may _possess _much — but _enjoys _nothing. One thought of its state of enmity to God, would drop bitterness into every cup. All he has, smells of hell-fire; and a man at a rich feast would enjoy it but little if he smelt fire, ready to burn his house and himself!

The *love *of sin. Sin is as truly the offspring of the soul, as children are of our bodies, and it finds as much favor in our eyes.

The *pleasures *of sin. The pleasures of sin must needs be short, because life cannot be long, and they both end together. Indeed, many times the pleasure of sin dies before the man dies: sinners live to bury their joy in this world. The worm breeds in their conscience, before it breeds in their flesh by death. But be sure the pleasure of sin never survives this world. The word is gone out of God's mouth, every sinner "shall lie down in sorrow" and wake in sorrow.

The carnal heart is all for the present; his snout is in the trough, and while his draught lasts, he thinks it will never end. Who would envy the condemned man his feast, which he has in his way to the gallows?

Where guilt is contracted in the _getting _of an enjoyment, there can be little sweetness tasted when it comes to be _used_. There is a great difference between the joy of the gardener, at the getting in of his corn at the harvest — and the thief's joy, who has stolen some sheaves out of another's field, and is making merry with his booty.

_No sin goes single_. It is impossible to embrace or allow one sin — and be free of others. Allow one sin, and God will give you over to others. When Judas began to play the thief, I question whether he meant to turn_traitor_. No, his treason was a punishment for his thievery.

The Christian in Complete Armor


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## kjw47 (Jul 19, 2016)

Mickiel said:


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Yes he did, but 99% outright refuse to listen to his real teachers, thus are rejecting God and Jesus as well by taking that stance-Luke 10:16


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## Mickiel (Jul 19, 2016)

There are no real teachers of God on earth now;  none that I know of.

And hasn't been for awhile.


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## Book of Jeremiah (Jul 19, 2016)

kjw47 said:


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It's a false Jesus you serve.  Matthew 24 Jesus warned that there would be many false Christ's.   Jehovah Witnesses do not read the KJV Holy Bible.  They read the New World Translations which is not the Bible.  Your religion has taught you there is no hell and only 144,000 go to heaven. JW surpassed that number long ago.  What happens to the rest of you according to your Jehovah Witness teachers?  

Heaven isn't limited to 144,000 people.  Your god is small.  My God invites all to come - Whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. Jesus Christ preached about hell a great deal in the KJV Holy Bible.  You need to read the KJV Holy Bible and learn the truth, kjw.


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## Mickiel (Jul 19, 2016)

In my personal view ,  both Christianity and the Jehovahs Witnesses  are very deceived religions  , both are jacked up in my opinion. But I think the JW'S are a little more closer to what is true  than Christianity is. Just a little.


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## Book of Jeremiah (Jul 19, 2016)

God has always had his own servants preaching the truth.  Your trouble is that it isn't truth you are willing to obey.  You have made a god in your own image that will accommodate your lifestyle, Mickiel.  The trouble with that is that there is no salvation in you being the god of your own life.  You need the Lord.  All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. I'm not judging you.  I'm telling you the truth.  Ye must be born again.


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## Book of Jeremiah (Jul 19, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> In my personal view ,  both Christianity and the Jehovahs Witnesses  are very deceived religions  , both are jacked up in my opinion. But I think the JW'S are a little more closer to what is true  than Christianity is. Just a little.


Your personal view is only _your _personal view, Mickiel.  It does not change the Word of God. The Word of God is the truth.  Consider the following story:

A battle ship was on exercise at sea in bad weather. The captain was on the bridge. It was foggy. Just after dark the look out spotted a light on the starboard side. The captain asked if it was steady or moving. The look out replied the light was steady meaning they were on direct collision course with that ship! The captain ordered the lookout signal to the other ship:

_“Change course 20 degrees. We are on collision course.”_

The signal came back_ ‘”Advisable for you to change course.”_

The captain signalled_ ‘”I am a captain. Change course 20 degrees.”_

_“I am a seaman second class. You had better change course 20 degrees” _came the reply.

The captain was furious. He sent back _‘”I am a battleship. Change course!”_

Back came the signal, _“I am a lighthouse. Your call.”_

_____________
THE LIGHTHOUSE AND THE SHIP

Now whether or not this event took place is besides the point.  If you are a a vessel of clay telling the Master potter, the Lord God Almighty - the Rock of Ages - the Ancient of Days -  to change course because you have no intention of it, you're the one who is going to suffer the consequences.   God's Word which is found in the King James Holy Bible does not adapt to man's _opinion or point of view.  _God's Word is eternal.  God changes not.  Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, to day and for ever.  You must understand that Satan's portrayal of who God is  - is twisted.  He is deceiver and he is deceiving you into believing that hell does not exist, that you can be your own god with no consequences and follow the left handed path of _do what thou wilt _to your hearts delight.  But there is a day of reckoning.  It may even come tonight!

Where would you go if you died in your sleep tonight, Mickiel?


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## Mickiel (Jul 19, 2016)

Jeremiah said:


> God has always had his own servants preaching the truth.  Your trouble is that it isn't truth you are willing to obey.  You have made a god in your own image that will accommodate your lifestyle, Mickiel.  The trouble with that is that there is no salvation in you being the god of your own life.  You need the Lord.  All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. I'm not judging you.  I'm telling you the truth.  Ye must be born again.




Christians cannot take or give salvation , your opinion of my salvation is meaningless to me. You Christians don't control salvation , you just act like you do. The world of sinners is very fortunate that you don't control God's free gift.


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## kjw47 (Jul 20, 2016)

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Gods truth is what occurs for the great multitude--They will be brought through Har-mageddon, on EARTH,( Matt 5:5)( Prov 2:21-22, Matt 24:22) and live forever on it( Psalm 37: 9,11,29)-it will become the new earth= Gods kingdom in full control, no satan influences.
eventually transformed into a garden of Eden( paradise)= Gods will.
Rev 14:3 is clear--144,000 are bought from the earth.

The teachings on hell were symbolic. proof== a place where the worm dieth not--not a single worm in existence could last 15 minutes in a hot firey place= symbolism. 6 feet under is where the worm dieth not.
These will call on the name of the lord--Matt 7:22-23--yet they all lose. And Jesus said--many.

Sometimes it takes more than a single teaching to make a whole truth--like calling on the name of the lord. Matt 7:22-23 proves it takes more on the calling on the name- partial truth. These were Christians he is talking to. Only Christians or ones told they are Christian do powerful works in Jesus name.


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## Book of Jeremiah (Jul 20, 2016)

kjw47 said:


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I believe Jehovah Witnesses are very sincere and work hard at their study and witnessing.  You are no exception.  But I would like you to consider that you can sincerely drink hemlock and die just the same. You are studying the wrong book, KJW.  Read a KJV Holy Bible and ask the Lord to reveal the Scriptures to you and His will for your life.  What have you to lose? Nothing but false beliefs and that you cannot lose fast enough.


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## kjw47 (Jul 20, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> There are no real teachers of God on earth now;  none that I know of.
> 
> And hasn't been for awhile.




Jesus said he would appoint his faithful and discreet slave,( real teachers) who give food( spiritual) at the proper time, and he would appoint them over all of his belongings--here in these last days--they are here now--otherwise this couldn't be truth-Dan 12:4--or this- John 4:22-24
And Luke 10:16 teaches--if one rejects Jesus' real teachers its the same as rejecting Jesus and God.


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## kjw47 (Jul 20, 2016)

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The teachings I shared with you are in the kjv as well. They are truths. You just dont know truth. I know you desire to and believe you do. But you would know my words are fact, found in every translation.

Just like this truth about the reality of Gods will--Deut 30:19-- he set before all--life or death---not life and life. Your teachers are teaching--eternal life in paradise or eternal life in hell--its not truth. God is love, merciful, kind-- there is no literal eternal suffering. reality--eternal life or eternal death. The teachings about hell were symbolic--for the value of what one lost by being thrown into the lake of fire( 2nd death, not life)-- as each new day dawns in Gods kingdom, those in the lake of fire miss each new dawning day eternally, it never stops, there missing each new day--likened to be eternal suffering.
Jesus taught truth on the matter of what is what---Enter through the narrow gate, for cramped is the road that leads off into life( eternal) FEW will find it. For many have entered the broad and spacious path that leads to DESTRUCTION( eternal death)


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## Book of Jeremiah (Jul 20, 2016)

kjw47 said:


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That is your opinion, kjw, but the Word of God does not give us liberty to re-interpret according to our opinion. Indeed, the Word of God does not ask for our opinion. Only to obey it.


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## kjw47 (Jul 20, 2016)

Jeremiah said:


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Its not my personal opinion--I was taught by the faithful and discreet slave whom Jesus apppointed over all his belongings. The ones you are standing in opposition of-Luke 10:16)--you really don't want to keep standing there--it is almost done.


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## Book of Jeremiah (Jul 20, 2016)

kjw47 said:


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You don't believe in hell according to your religion so what would you think I should be afraid of if not for the fact that you are not so sure now about the teachings the Jehovah Witness teacher gave you?  

You must know there is a hell.


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## Mickiel (Jul 20, 2016)

Take the hell test;

The Hell Test


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## Mickiel (Jul 20, 2016)

Why would God need a hell , if he wanted to punish humanity, he could just put us in the hands of Christians.


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## Mickiel (Jul 21, 2016)

Why would a God need a hell, when he has a Christ?


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## Mickiel (Jul 21, 2016)

Jesus real teachings on hell;


Jesus' Teaching On Hell


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## kjw47 (Jul 21, 2016)

Jeremiah said:


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The Hebrew word-Sheol = The Greek word-Hades--both translate--THE GRAVE = the English word-Hell.

Gods justice scales make eternal suffering teaching--IMPOSSIBLE. It was symbolism.


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## Mickiel (Jul 21, 2016)

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You got that right! Pure symbolism that the Christians got hold of and created an unholy doctrine with. I shutter the thought , that  our Good God would hurt humans for an eternity; it would be pure insanity!


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## kjw47 (Jul 21, 2016)

Mickiel said:


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the false religions that are claiming Christianity do not know God, that is why they teach him to be a sadist with eternal suffering.


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## Mickiel (Jul 21, 2016)

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Well I agree , Christianity has usurped the name of Christ and has the whole world fooled into thinking that they represent God;

They do not.

They are a church in rebellion , that does not even know they have rebelled. They don't even know they are naked ; just like Adam and Eve did not know. Rev. 3:17;" You don't know you are wretched , miserable , poor , blind and naked." Jesus describing HIS church in its final state of apostasy.


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## Mickiel (Jul 22, 2016)

You know something , if half the humans on earth with common sense can see the insanity an eternal punishing  hell would be, why in the world of reason cannot so many hell believers see that an all wise God could not deduce that?


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## kjw47 (Jul 22, 2016)

Mickiel said:


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Thr apostasy rose up in the 2nd century--Jesus one true religion died prior to that.( few remained underground) But Jesus promised that here in these last days it would return and truth would become abundant( Dan 12:4)-- a mark of his one true religion-1Cor 1:10-- unity of thought-no division--that cancels 33,000 trinity based religions who are this-Mark 3:24-26--a house divided will not stand.


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## Mickiel (Jul 22, 2016)

Universalism , or the complete salvation of all of humanity , was the original gospel, then the church lost this first love;

Richard Wayne Garganta's TV Show - First Century Christianity


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## Mickiel (Jul 23, 2016)

God has a salvation mind and heart , Christianity has a hell heart.


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## Campbell (Jul 23, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> I have asked myself why a God would need a hell, ( and by hell I mean the Christian version of it). I mean here this great being of life and love , is said to have created a place of eternal misery? And something is just not right with that, because it makes no sense at all. But a lot of things in religion make no sense, but religion rains on humanity, getting all of our consciousness wet in one manner or another.
> 
> My view of God, and I don't know God, have never seen him or heard his voice; is a view that I know is already distorted by many things; but I view him as merciful, loving, kind, forgiving, longsuffering, all the things that this Christian hell is not. So I don't think this hell is God's creation, I think the Christians created it. I think this eternal hell punishing is what Christians would do with unbelievers, not God. I think its moreso what the Christians want.
> 
> Why would God make an eternal monument out of evil? For what? Why would such a being of great power of change, co-exist with misery forever? Why? I can't see it. I think something is seriously wrong with this myopic view of hell! The powers that exist which can seduce the consciousness of humanity into believing nonsense, is simply stunning.



God is strictly man made. Something made by man definitely needs a hell. Most people do things and expect to go to heaven while wanting others to go to hell for the same offenses. We're funny that way.

The people who wrote the bible believed in witches and thought the earth was flat:


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## Mickiel (Jul 23, 2016)

Campbell said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > I have asked myself why a God would need a hell, ( and by hell I mean the Christian version of it). I mean here this great being of life and love , is said to have created a place of eternal misery? And something is just not right with that, because it makes no sense at all. But a lot of things in religion make no sense, but religion rains on humanity, getting all of our consciousness wet in one manner or another.
> ...




I totally disagree, I think man is God made. I was once asked is God real a few years ago , this was my answer;

Is God Real?


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## Mickiel (Jul 23, 2016)

Why would God need a hell , if he wanted to really scare humanity , he could just put Christianity in charge of their fate.


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## Mickiel (Jul 24, 2016)

Mickiel said:


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Oh God is real ,  in my view, but God is the reason why most people do not believe in him; because he hides himself. Its not unbeliever's fault.


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## Campbell (Jul 24, 2016)

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There definitely is no god. If there was he would have stopped George W. Bush from invading Iraq and getting 4500 young Americans killed....and Bush did it in his name.


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## Mickiel (Jul 24, 2016)

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Explain to me why a God needs to concern himself with how many  humans kill humans , or how many humans he decides to kill , when he knows he is going to bring them all back to life in a far greater capacity to exist? You don't seem to get that.  Human life and death at this stage in existence is meaningless to God. Billions can get killed , it matters not to him;  those same millions will live with him in eternity ;  and he knows that. You just don't know it.


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## Holos (Jul 24, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> Why would God make an eternal monument out of evil? For what? Why would such a being of great power of change, co-exist with misery forever? Why?



Let's first assume that God is actually the author of God's words, and not simply the conductor, so that the question of God making hell can actually be concise, since the scriptures will tell us instead that God made heaven and earth.

Considering evil to actually be associated with misery, the reason why God would make it an eternal monument would be so that evil is truly comprehended as provisional, and not simply detracting and tormenting.

It is an example to be reviewed and established as ideal, when there are no others in its likeness already attained or fulfilled. 

Hell is one of those examples in its likeness, which must be arrived at from a consistent following of the scriptures.


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## Mickiel (Jul 24, 2016)

Holos said:


> Mickiel said:
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> > Why would God make an eternal monument out of evil? For what? Why would such a being of great power of change, co-exist with misery forever? Why?
> ...




Hell should not even be in the scriptures , the acceptance of it is an example of how deceived the human mind can be.

How many times is hell mentioned in the Bible?

God does not need an eternal monument for insanity.


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## Holos (Jul 24, 2016)

Mickiel said:


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Your post in this online forum is a scripture, may I remind you of that?
You are free to do as you believe with your scriptures.

God is also free to do as he finds proper without anyone else telling him what is it that he must or must not need, or what is it that his scriptures should or should not contain.

It is simple civility.


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## Mickiel (Jul 24, 2016)

Holos said:


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I like scriptures , I just don't like the Christian interpretation of them. I have absolutely no use for Christianity , or any other religion;  I don't want anything between me and God. Especially what some religion thinks.


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## Campbell (Jul 24, 2016)

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I don't believe there is a GOD!! If there is...phuck im'


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## Mickiel (Jul 24, 2016)

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Well your not supposed to believe in God ;unbelievers are unbelievers because they are supposed to be. I believe that we are what we are supposed to be for now.


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## Campbell (Jul 24, 2016)

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We knew you would know what god needs!


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## Mickiel (Jul 24, 2016)

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Who is " We?"


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## Campbell (Jul 25, 2016)

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I have a rat in my pocket.......it's about eight inches long.


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## Mickiel (Jul 25, 2016)

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I find it hard to reason with the unreasonable. But I am sure that at least you see relevance in your world. I hold no need for rash insulting conversation. I don't get off on raping the human language.


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## Holos (Jul 25, 2016)

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I comprehend perfectly your position and share similar values as far as you have disclosed them, but the scriptures that contain God also contain hell.


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## Campbell (Jul 25, 2016)

Mickiel said:


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conversación terminado!


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## Mickiel (Jul 25, 2016)

Campbell said:


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Welcome to thread.


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## LittleNipper (Jul 25, 2016)

*What the Bible Says About Hell*
Related Media

*Key Facts About Eternity*
*(1) Everyone will exist eternally either in heaven or hell* (Daniel 12:2,3; Matthew 25:46; John 5:28; Revelation 20:14,15).

*(2) Everyone has only one life in which to determine their destiny* (Hebrews 9:27).

*(3) Heaven or hell is determined by whether a person believes (puts their trust) in Christ alone to save them* (John 3:16, 36, etc.).

*Key Passages About Hell*
*(1) Hell was designed originally for Satan and his demons* (Matthew 25:41; Revelation 20:10).

*(2) Hell will also punish the sin of those who reject Christ* (Matthew 13:41,50; Revelation 20:11-15; 21:8).

*(3) Hell is conscious torment.*


Matthew 13:50 “furnace of fire…weeping and gnashing of teeth”
Mark 9:48 “where their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched”
Revelation 14:10 “he will be tormented with fire and brimstone”
*(4) Hell is eternal and irreversible.*


Revelation 14:11 “the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever and they have no rest day and night”
Revelation 20:14 “This is the second death, the lake of fire”
Revelation 20:15 “If anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire”
*Erroneous Views of Hell*
*(1) The second chance view* – After death there is still a way to escape hell.

Answer: “It is appointed unto men once to die and after that the judgment” (Hebrews 9:27).

*(2) Universalism* – All are eternally saved.

Answer: It denies the truth of salvation through Christ which means that a person decides to either trust in Christ or else he/she rejects Christ and goes to hell (John 3:16;3:36).

*(3) Annihilationism* – Hell means a person dies like an animal – ceases to exist.

Answer: It denies the resurrection of the unsaved (John 5:28, etc. – see above). It denies conscious torment (see above).

*Objections to the Biblical View of Hell*
*(1) A loving God would not send people to a horrible hell.*

Response: God is just (Romans 2:11).


God has provided the way of salvation to all (John 3:16,17; 2 Corinthians 5:14,15; 1 Timothy 2:6; 4:10; Titus 2:11; 2 Peter 3:9).
Even those who haven’t heard of Christ are accountable for God’s revelation in nature (Romans 1:20). God will seek those who seek Him (Matthew 7:7; Luke 19:10).
Therefore God doesn’t send people to hell, they choose it (Romans 1:18,21,25).
*(2) Hell is too severe a punishment for man’s sin.*

Response: God is holy-perfect (1 Peter 1:14,15).


Sin is willful opposition to God our creator (Romans 1:18-32).
Our sin does merit hell (Romans 1:32; 2:2,5,6).
What is unfair and amazing is that Christ died for our sin and freely offers salvation to all (Romans 2:4; 3:22-24; 4:7,8; 5:8,9).
*Biblical Terms Describing Where the Dead Are*

*Sheol* - a Hebrew term simply describing “the grave” or “death” – Does not refer to “hell” specifically
*Hades* - A Greek term that usually refers to hell – a place of torment (Luke 10:15; 16:23, etc.)
*Gehenna* - A Greek term (borrowed from a literal burning dump near Jerusalem) that always refers to hell – a place of torment (Matthew 5:30; 23:33)
*“Lake of fire”-* the final abode of unbelievers after they are resurrected (Revelation 20:14,15)
*“Abraham’s bosom”* - (Luke 16:22) a place of eternal comfort
*“Paradise”* - (Luke 23:43) a place of eternal comfort
*“With the Lord”* - a key phrase describes where church age believers are after death (Philippians 1:23; 1 Thessalonians 4:17; 2 Corinthians 5:8)
*“New heavens and earth”* – where believers will be after they are resurrected (Revelation 20:4-6; 21:1-4)
*Conclusion*
Our curiosity about the abode of the dead is not completely satisfied by biblical terms or verses. What we do know is that either eternal torment in hell or eternal joy in heaven awaits all people after death, based on whether they trust in Christ’s payment for sin or reject Christ.


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## Mickiel (Jul 25, 2016)

Welcome to the truth;

Hell is Leaving the Bible Forever


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## LittleNipper (Jul 25, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> Welcome to the truth;
> 
> Hell is Leaving the Bible Forever


Your version.


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## Mickiel (Jul 25, 2016)

LittleNipper said:


> Mickiel said:
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What's it feel like Christian , seeing all those sinners escaping your beloved hell? What's it feel like ,  seeing a shut down notice placed at the gates of your precious hell?

What's it feel like?


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## Mickiel (Jul 25, 2016)

Hey , why would a God need a hell? You think God needs a garbage can?


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## Mickiel (Jul 26, 2016)

What would motivate a God to bring pain into eternity?


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## Mickiel (Jul 26, 2016)

If someone was punished alive for 200,000 years , do you think that would be sane?


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## LittleNipper (Jul 26, 2016)

Mickiel said:


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I haven't seen anyone  escaping anything . Do you see visions of heaven and hell? I don't love hell and I do not wish anyone to go there. The reality is if you are wrong, then you will be held accountable for not warning people to accept God's plan of salvation. If I am wrong, the more the merrier and no one is hurt. The Bible indicates that your view is lacking THE SPONCER --- Jesus Christ the Messiah God.


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## Mickiel (Jul 27, 2016)

LittleNipper said:


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I see humans being duped with hell , their conscious belief raped and seduced with a  place that does not exist for humans. God doe's not need a prison Hell is just as fake as Lucifer ;Lucifer is not the devil. Just another screwed up Christian myth./


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## Kristian (Jul 27, 2016)

Jesus and God need evil power in hell. To send people to hell after sin.


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## Mickiel (Jul 27, 2016)

Kristian said:


> Jesus and God need evil power in hell. To send people to hell after sin.




You believe that because you have a garbage mentality towards evil people, you can throw them away forever.

God and Jesus are not like you , they will change the very nature of evil people and save them. He is not going to let Christians get in the way of this.


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## Kristian (Jul 27, 2016)

Gods ultimate sin are send people to hell maybe to even they are atheist. But ateist belief on speak and know things or Science in galaxy.


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## Kristian (Jul 27, 2016)

I will speak and have good. Belief in Faith I cannot.


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## Kristian (Jul 27, 2016)

The ultimate God want to send ateist to hell.


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## Mickiel (Jul 27, 2016)

Kristian said:


> The ultimate God want to send ateist to hell.




No , the ultimate Christian wants to send people to their hell ;  herd them up like cattle and dump them in a giant garbage pit

That's why the world is fortunate that Christians have nothing to do with our future.


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## Kristian (Jul 27, 2016)

Christians cannot send human to hell. Total impossible. Christians have lives on earth.


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## Mickiel (Jul 27, 2016)

Kristian said:


> Christians cannot send human to hell. Total impossible. Christians have lives on earth.




Christians are rooting for hell
Teaching hell to children
Teaching that God designed hell
Teaching that Jesus could not help their hell bound people
Teaching that hell is a part of the gospel of God

There is absolutely no doubt that Christians are the pimps of hell. They are pumping this message out relentlessly.


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## Kristian (Jul 27, 2016)

God and Jesus teaching us people to tell to another people.


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## Mickiel (Jul 27, 2016)

Kristian said:


> God and Jesus teaching us people to tell to another people.




God did not teach Christians about hell , paganism and evil desires taught Christians about hell.


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## Mickiel (Jul 27, 2016)

As you get time , I want you to read : Did God create hell?

Did God Create Hell?  by Jacques Ellul


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## Mickiel (Jul 27, 2016)

Why would God need the Christian hell?

The days of Christian threatening are over.


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## Mickiel (Jul 27, 2016)

Its my pleasure to stand against Christianity  and destroy their hope in hell.


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## Mickiel (Jul 28, 2016)

The Christian hell has to be removed from history  as well as the human mindset ; its a pariah.


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## Mickiel (Jul 28, 2016)

I can't understand why Christianity thought it would get away with pimping hell.


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## Mickiel (Jul 29, 2016)

Why do people even believe the insanity of eternal hell;

I think its because they think God is a little insane.


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## Mickiel (Jul 29, 2016)

You ever imagine just how many seniors the Christians would throw in their hell?  How many children?


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## Mickiel (Jul 29, 2016)

The lake of fire is not the Christian hell ;

L. Ray Smith - Lake of Fire - Part 16-B


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## Mickiel (Jul 29, 2016)

You take hell away from Christians , your removing the teeth from their gospel.


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## Mickiel (Jul 29, 2016)

Why do Christians need hell?

Why to make their religion relevant and scare the pants off of the future of humans.


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## Mickiel (Jul 30, 2016)

Why would God need an eternal hell , who's going to feed them forever? Do they have to stand on their feet forever? Wear the same clothes for all eternity? Will God let them take bathes every million years or so? Are we going to give them sleep breaks every 20 trillion years or so?

What about hair cuts? What , do we just burn their hair off?


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## Kristian (Jul 30, 2016)

There is at least one or two hell in Christianity hell. Dark and light. Swedish hell exist.


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## Mickiel (Jul 30, 2016)

Kristian said:


> There is at least one or two hell in Christianity hell. Dark and light. Swedish hell exist.




There are over 20 hells in religion;

Hell - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## Pete7469 (Jul 30, 2016)

God doesn't need a hell.

We need one, so that we don't have to spend eternity listening to libturd parasites piss and moan about everything in heaven. A lifetime is long enough. Life is hellish enough as it is. Libturds are miserable no matter where they are anyway, so they ought to go to hell.


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## Mickiel (Jul 30, 2016)

Why would God need a hell? Why would he want to hurt humans forever?

Were hurting enough as it is. Putting up with religions is hurtful enough as it is.


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## Pete7469 (Jul 30, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> Why would God need a hell? Why would he want to hurt humans forever?
> 
> Were hurting enough as it is. Putting up with religions is hurtful enough as it is.




Libturds aren't human. 

They're parasites.


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## Mickiel (Jul 30, 2016)

Pete7469 said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > Why would God need a hell? Why would he want to hurt humans forever?
> ...



I hold no interest in calling people names ; and see absolutely no worth in doing it.


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## Pete7469 (Jul 30, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> I hold no interest in calling people names ; and see absolutely no worth in doing it.



I do. 

Things need to be labeled and categorized so that they can be organized and prioritized.

For instance, mindless libturd drones need to be ignored or ridiculed.

Cognitive people who can think independently should have their opinions considered and discussed.


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## Mickiel (Jul 30, 2016)

Pete7469 said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > I hold no interest in calling people names ; and see absolutely no worth in doing it.
> ...




I hold no interest in name calling. Its a waste of words.


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## Pete7469 (Jul 30, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> I hold no interest in name calling. Its a waste of words.




Pretty much how I feel about lamenting religious dogma.

We can do whatever we want though.


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## Mickiel (Jul 30, 2016)

Pete7469 said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > I hold no interest in name calling. Its a waste of words.
> ...




Now I understand you there. Good point! Still , I prefer not to rape the human language.


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## Mickiel (Jul 31, 2016)

Will the Christians still be allowed to preach in hell, lets say once every billion years.


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## Mickiel (Aug 2, 2016)

I tell you humans in hell will have to  be a Super being, "Super Sufferers", they will have legs like the  incredible hulk , because they must stand up for all eternity , they will have bodies  like the human torch, can burn for billions of years but never burn up. They can swim in the fire like Aqua man. Their minds must be super to keep them from going mad at this insane hell.

You know something , these Super Sufferers are going to be quite formidable, and after what , 999 quadrillion years of suffering , some of them may be mad at God. We had better post 12 legions of Cerephim and angels;

we would  not want any of these things getting out, now would we?


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## Mickiel (Aug 6, 2016)

Religion needs a hell ;  God is not religion.  Religions are using God to advance THEIR theology.


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## Mickiel (Aug 7, 2016)

Religion needs a hell to help it fill its den of doom they crave.


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## LittleNipper (Aug 7, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> Religion needs a hell to help it fill its den of doom they crave.



With Christ, there is no doom or gloom ------- only Faith, Hope, Charity and LOVE. Those without Christ are condemned already.


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## Mickiel (Aug 7, 2016)

LittleNipper said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > Religion needs a hell to help it fill its den of doom they crave.
> ...




And what IS the condemnation? Eternal hell punishing like you Christians preach and desire? The condemnation, ( or judgment), is revealed in next verse; John 3:19 " And THIS IS the condemnation, that light is come into the world but men loved darkness."  Spiritual blindness IS the condemnation, not your precious hell. You Christians are hell mongers , flooding the world with your message of condemnation, because you desire that for the world. You want  the consciousness of the world to be infected  with the fear of condemnation that you are infected with.


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## Muhammed (Aug 7, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> I have asked myself why a God would need a hell, ( and by hell I mean the Christian version of it). I mean here this great being of life and love , is said to have created a place of eternal misery? And something is just not right with that, because it makes no sense at all. But a lot of things in religion make no sense, but religion rains on humanity, getting all of our consciousness wet in one manner or another.
> 
> My view of God, and I don't know God, have never seen him or heard his voice; is a view that I know is already distorted by many things; but I view him as merciful, loving, kind, forgiving, longsuffering, all the things that this Christian hell is not. So I don't think this hell is God's creation, I think the Christians created it. I think this eternal hell punishing is what Christians would do with unbelievers, not God. I think its moreso what the Christians want.
> 
> Why would God make an eternal monument out of evil? For what? Why would such a being of great power of change, co-exist with misery forever? Why? I can't see it. I think something is seriously wrong with this myopic view of hell! The powers that exist which can seduce the consciousness of humanity into believing nonsense, is simply stunning.


Where is God supposed to put evil fucks, if not in hell? Fucking Cleveland or something?


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## IsaacNewton (Aug 7, 2016)

Why does Batman need the Joker? Why does Chief Brody need the shark? Why does Bruce Willis need the cranky huge asteroid? 

You can't tell a good story without a protagonist and an antagonist. Austin Powers and Dr Evil (it is even spelled out in that one). The Priest and Linda Blair. Fred Sanford and Aunt Ester. Crockett and Tubbs and Drug Dealer and Other Drug Dealer. Simba and Scar. Pepsi and Coke. Sarah Palin and education.


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## Mickiel (Aug 7, 2016)

Muhammed said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > I have asked myself why a God would need a hell, ( and by hell I mean the Christian version of it). I mean here this great being of life and love , is said to have created a place of eternal misery? And something is just not right with that, because it makes no sense at all. But a lot of things in religion make no sense, but religion rains on humanity, getting all of our consciousness wet in one manner or another.
> ...




I think the real evil here is a mind that will not forgive and change the  evil humans ; a mind like yours that will herd those humans like cattle into your pain pit mentality. You been infected by Christian theology.


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## Mickiel (Aug 7, 2016)

IsaacNewton said:


> Why does Batman need the Joker? Why does Chief Brody need the shark? Why does Bruce Willis need the cranky huge asteroid?
> 
> You can't tell a good story without a protagonist and an antagonist. Austin Powers and Dr Evil (it is even spelled out in that one). The Priest and Linda Blair. Fred Sanford and Aunt Ester. Crockett and Tubbs and Drug Dealer and Other Drug Dealer. Simba and Scar. Pepsi and Coke. Sarah Palin and education.




Mentalities like yours created those senarios  , humanity  needs to be saved  from  thinking like yours.


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## IsaacNewton (Aug 7, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> IsaacNewton said:
> 
> 
> > Why does Batman need the Joker? Why does Chief Brody need the shark? Why does Bruce Willis need the cranky huge asteroid?
> ...



AGain?


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## Mickiel (Aug 7, 2016)

IsaacNewton said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > IsaacNewton said:
> ...



You forgot the Atheism needs Theism joke; how they feed off each other like parasites in the dark, trying to survive.


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## IsaacNewton (Aug 7, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> IsaacNewton said:
> 
> 
> > Mickiel said:
> ...



Atheism doesn't need an alternative. It isn't a belief in something. It is the absence of belief. 

Abstinence is not a sex position. And you find it hard to laugh, so solly miss Molly.


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## yiostheoy (Aug 7, 2016)

The Philosophy God is a creation of philosophers.  As Immanuel Kant said, if there were no God it would be necessary for mankind to create one.

Similarly in Confucianism and Buddhism, those two thinkers being philosophers, they simply created a working system for a Philosophy God.

Hinduism has a Pantheon of Gods and Goddesses -- they still think as though they live in the Bronze Age when everything in nature was thought to be a God.  Heaven was a god.  Earth was a goddess.  Heavens rain and Earth becomes fertilized and gives forth fruits and grains.

Judaism, Christianity, and Islam have revelatory Gods.

In Judaism the God announced himself as YHVH and appeared to Moses and commanded him to bring his people out of Egypt.  These chosen people lasted about 700 years until first the Assyrians and then the Babylonians conquered them.  The chosen people managed to hang on for another 800 years though while the Greeks and Romans conquered them.  Then around 100 A.D. the Romans destroyed their capitol and looted all their gold and brass and ivory and built the Coliseum with it.  Even so the chosen people managed to hang on another 1800 years until they got their homeland back from the Turks and the Palestinians.

In Christianity the God announced himself in Greek as Theos and fathered a Son Of God.  This Son Of God gave new commandments to the Jews which from there spread to the Greeks and Romans and Syrians and the rest of Europe and the world.  In 325 AD Christianity even conquered the Roman Empire.

Islam has a prophet who lived in a cave and claimed he heard voices from an archangel called Gabriel.  In this sense it is plagiarized Christianity and plagiarized Judaism.  The Islamic book is a long boring rant that sounds like it is from a madman.

That's who the God and Gods are.

That's where they came from.

That's how we know about them -- from numerous books from the Gita's to the Tenakh and the New Testament Bible and the Quran.


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## hobelim (Aug 7, 2016)

IsaacNewton said:


> Atheism doesn't need an alternative. It isn't a belief in something. It is the absence of belief.
> 
> Abstinence is not a sex position. And you find it hard to laugh, so solly miss Molly.




Funny thing is that in the Bible people are taught to not be gullible,* to not believe in what is irrational.*..

If God actually does exist, then atheists will fare much better at the judgement than those who profess to believe in lies.


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## yiostheoy (Aug 7, 2016)

hobelim said:


> Funny thing is that in the Bible people are taught to not be gullible,* to not believe in what is irrational.*..
> 
> If God actually does exist, then atheists will fare much better at the judgement than those who profess to believe in lies.


Atheists are NOT hedging any of their bets.

So unfortunately in the next world they will look really stupid and will have nothing to say.

Nobody will even listen to them anymore.  Just waive them off as useless.


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## hobelim (Aug 7, 2016)

yiostheoy said:


> hobelim said:
> 
> 
> > Funny thing is that in the Bible people are taught to not be gullible,* to not believe in what is irrational.*..
> ...




You don't understand. Atheists are not hedging any bets because they do not go for the standard lines. They do not believe. Its simply a matter of being honest with themselves and others. Isn't that the right thing to do?

How could any just God find fault with that?

If people weren't saying and doing so many bizarre and irrational things in the name of God and had something concrete and verifiable for people to examine then they might believe in what can be proven to be true..

Those who gamble with life , hedge bets, and profess to believe in what is irrational and condemn others who do not believe are the ones who are being waved off as useless right now, in the real world.

If you really believed that God exists, how can you also believe that you can gamble your way into the world to come? How smart is that? Do you think that you can outwit God?


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## LittleNipper (Aug 7, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> LittleNipper said:
> 
> 
> > Mickiel said:
> ...



And YOU love the darkness. YOU condemn YOURSELF. YOU distort the Truth. Your reject CHRIST.

I want people to seek GOD and to see their spiritual need for salvation by GOD through CHRIST JESUS. Spiritual blindness equals spiritual death. And Adam and Eve were faced with spiritual death because they rejected GOD and ate of the tree wanting to be "God".


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## Mickiel (Aug 7, 2016)

IsaacNewton said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > IsaacNewton said:
> ...




If Atheism has no alternative needs, then explain why they seem to need religious forums to post their un needing views? Explain to me how Atheism is an absence of belief, but yet Theism is not absent in their conversations?


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## Mickiel (Aug 7, 2016)

LittleNipper said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > LittleNipper said:
> ...




You are wrong , Adam and Eve ate because they were set up by God to eat, that is WHY God sent the serpent into Eden, he knew they were absolutely no match for satan. But what Christianity does not have eyes to see is that in the garden, he was "Creating the need for Christ to come to earth." Adam and Eve were predestined to fail , just like Judas was. God knows what he is doing ;  we just don't know.


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## hobelim (Aug 7, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> If Atheism has no alternative needs, then explain why they seem to need religious forums to post their un needing views? Explain to me how Atheism is an absence of belief, but yet Theism is not absent in their conversations?





When a person says that they do not believe in X they have to use X in their conversations with people who believe in X because that's how people communicate..


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## Mickiel (Aug 7, 2016)

hobelim said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > If Atheism has no alternative needs, then explain why they seem to need religious forums to post their un needing views? Explain to me how Atheism is an absence of belief, but yet Theism is not absent in their conversations?
> ...




I agree and I view that as a need. I then disagree that Atheism has no alternative needs.


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## LittleNipper (Aug 7, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> LittleNipper said:
> 
> 
> > Mickiel said:
> ...


How do you know? What is your proof? What is the result if you are WRONG?


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## hobelim (Aug 7, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> hobelim said:
> 
> 
> > Mickiel said:
> ...



Maybe its more of a duty than a need, like making sure that the mentally unstable do not direct the course of a nation.


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## hobelim (Aug 7, 2016)

LittleNipper said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > LittleNipper said:
> ...




I know it's a long shot that would amount to being a miracle, but some people actually learn from their mistakes.


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## Mickiel (Aug 7, 2016)

hobelim said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > hobelim said:
> ...




In my view , Atheism and Theism NEED each other; and that is reality as it really is , not as it seems to be!


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## Mickiel (Aug 7, 2016)

LittleNipper said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > LittleNipper said:
> ...




The bible is my proof Christian, read it in Gen.3:7 Adam and Eve's " Eves were opened" , simply meaning they were spiritually blind to everything that happened BEFORE verse 7. Its academic , they did not have God's Spirit , they were not trained and God did not help them. But Christianity is blind to this.


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## IsaacNewton (Aug 7, 2016)

I find the story of the talking snake similar to Carl in Caddy Shack, when he shapes plastic explosives to look like squirrels and as he is tossing them down the gopher hole he says "yeah, hi, it's just me mr squirrel, it isn't a plastic explosive or anything like that, no need to be alarmed. I thought I'd pop in there for a few laughs." 

Why would a loving god do that to people?


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## hobelim (Aug 7, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> hobelim said:
> 
> 
> > Mickiel said:
> ...




That's fine and dandy. Just don't try to run for any government office or position of any level that requires rational thought and the public trust. You have disqualified yourself.


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## Mudda (Aug 7, 2016)

God needs a Hell for when he's tired of hanging with the wimps in heaven.


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## Mickiel (Aug 7, 2016)

Mudda said:


> God needs a Hell for when he's tired of hanging with the wimps in heaven.




I have noticed your need for sarcasm in your conversation , perhaps that is heaven for your mouth.


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## Mudda (Aug 7, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> Mudda said:
> 
> 
> > God needs a Hell for when he's tired of hanging with the wimps in heaven.
> ...


Heaven for my mouth is a nice pussy.


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## yiostheoy (Aug 7, 2016)

Mudda said:


> Heaven for my mouth is a nice pussy.


Just get dimsum it all tastes the same.


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## yiostheoy (Aug 7, 2016)

IsaacNewton said:


> I find the story of the talking snake similar to Carl in Caddy Shack, when he shapes plastic explosives to look like squirrels and as he is tossing them down the gopher hole he says "yeah, hi, it's just me mr squirrel, it isn't a plastic explosive or anything like that, no need to be alarmed. I thought I'd pop in there for a few laughs."
> 
> Why would a loving god do that to people?


It's just a story.

Moses made it up.


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## yiostheoy (Aug 7, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> Will the Christians still be allowed to preach in hell, lets say once every billion years.


No reason to.

The reward there is forever.


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## IsaacNewton (Aug 7, 2016)

yiostheoy said:


> IsaacNewton said:
> 
> 
> > I find the story of the talking snake similar to Carl in Caddy Shack, when he shapes plastic explosives to look like squirrels and as he is tossing them down the gopher hole he says "yeah, hi, it's just me mr squirrel, it isn't a plastic explosive or anything like that, no need to be alarmed. I thought I'd pop in there for a few laughs."
> ...



So you speak for figures in the bible? That might work in Sunday school class but not here. Just speak for yourself.


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## Mickiel (Aug 7, 2016)

Mudda said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > Mudda said:
> ...




Your mouth  is raping the human language every day ; your a conversation rapist. And you get off on doing it. I have seen this  behavior before.


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## Mudda (Aug 7, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> Mudda said:
> 
> 
> > Mickiel said:
> ...


So you don't like to plunge your face into a nice wet pussy?


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## Mudda (Aug 7, 2016)

yiostheoy said:


> Mudda said:
> 
> 
> > Heaven for my mouth is a nice pussy.
> ...


I'm not into Asian bush, it smells like wet rice.


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## Mickiel (Aug 7, 2016)

Mudda said:


> yiostheoy said:
> 
> 
> > Mudda said:
> ...




I object your verbal abuse of the English language ;I object to how you verbally abuse communication with impunity; I object to the pervertish joy to get from doing as such ; I object to the malicious movement of your mouth and mind.


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## Mudda (Aug 7, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> Mudda said:
> 
> 
> > yiostheoy said:
> ...


So you're saying that you don't like pussy? Why am I not surprised?


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## Mickiel (Aug 7, 2016)

Mudda said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > Mudda said:
> ...




I hold no interest in a decent conversation with you , you would rape it too much. I have absolutely no need to disrespect women or the human language. I object to how you handle a conversation as if you are "The Joker",  standing on a stage to get a laugh at anyone's expense. I object to intelligence that likes to abuse. And if you keep talking to me, I'll just keep exposing you for what you really are.


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## LittleNipper (Aug 7, 2016)

hobelim said:


> LittleNipper said:
> 
> 
> > Mickiel said:
> ...



Rejecting God's atonement is the only unforgiven sin. An eternity separated from God is not the thing I would want to study.


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## LittleNipper (Aug 7, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> LittleNipper said:
> 
> 
> > Mickiel said:
> ...


They LOST God's Spirit and became Spiritually DEAD! In the day they ate the fruit they became dead to God.


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## Mudda (Aug 8, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> Mudda said:
> 
> 
> > Mickiel said:
> ...


I bet you like to slobber over a stiff black cock and then gobble up all the cum.


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## Mickiel (Aug 8, 2016)

Mudda said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > Mudda said:
> ...




Tell us ,what's it really feel like to  be so mutinous with your mouth? Does spitting out garbage make you energized or give you some kind of worth? How's it make you feel? What's it feel like to have speak's with someone who will not throw garbage back at you?


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## Mudda (Aug 9, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> Mudda said:
> 
> 
> > Mickiel said:
> ...


I noticed that you didn't disagree with what I said. Good for you.


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## yiostheoy (Aug 9, 2016)

Mudda said:


> yiostheoy said:
> 
> 
> > Mudda said:
> ...


Dimsum is delicious.

Asian bush is delicious too.

Now I am hungry for rice and dimsum.


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## yiostheoy (Aug 9, 2016)

Just got back from a late nite visit to Safeway (now a subsidiary of Albertsons) and they have an Asian counter with all sorts of dimsum to go.

Got one package and I'm steaming it now on the stove top.

Yum !!


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## Mickiel (Sep 3, 2016)

Why would a God of grace need  a merciless Christian hell?


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## Mickiel (Sep 4, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> Why would a God of grace need  a merciless Christian hell?




Notice again;  23 Minutes In Hell


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## Clement (Sep 4, 2016)

Divine.Wind said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > Well the evidence that I would use , if I had to make a case for this being the center of the universe, is that the bible reveals that God will return to earth one day, and recreate it and make it the focal point of his Kingdom; and actually put his throne here. Now, if God is going to do such a thing, then in my view, that is a strong case for the earth being the center of not only the universe, but life itself.
> ...



You seem to have a lot on the ball but whoever put this graphic together is full of it. Take the Catholics, the Anglicans, the Baptists, the AG's, etc. and tell me which ones do not believe in the ancient creeds of the Church, and by that I mean the Baptismal vow known as the Apostle's creed. They all believe in it except for the non-Trinitarians. The Church is not divided.

And by the way, Athanasius was not a "white guy".


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## Mickiel (Sep 5, 2016)

If hell is real,then why?

Bible Reality Check--A Case Against Hell


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## Mickiel (Sep 6, 2016)

Again ,how many biblical translations still have hell in them?

How many times is hell mentioned in the Bible?


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## Death Angel (Sep 6, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> I have asked myself why a God would need a hell, ( and by hell I mean the Christian version of it). I mean here this great being of life and love , is said to have created a place of eternal misery?


The "christian" versions is actually the CATHOLIC version which they borrowed from paganism.

Make no mistake. Christ warned of the Lake of Fire which will DESTROY the wicked. This is the second death. Its the final death.


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## hauke (Sep 6, 2016)

ok its acctually easy to explain why god created hell.

god created paradise.

heaven is the paradise of good people.

hell is the paradise of evil people.

god created hell so evil people got a paradise

thats the simple version

the truth is a bit more complicated, you might want to ask lucifer

ask lucifer why god wanted adam and eve to choose to eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil

and why he wanted them to stay away from eternal life


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## hauke (Sep 6, 2016)

i choose eternal life, and i acctually don t get that good and evil thing

its all just life


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## hauke (Sep 6, 2016)

everyone else dies, and i didn t get thrown out of paradise for eating of the tree of knowledge of good or evil i got thrown out of paradise because i eat of the fruit of the other tree


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## Mickiel (Sep 6, 2016)

hauke said:


> i choose eternal life, and i acctually don t get that good and evil thing
> 
> its all just life




Suggested reading, the " Problem of Evil."

http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/TheProblemofEvil.html


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## hauke (Sep 6, 2016)

i think i understand moral values

after a few thousand years moral and ethics mean something


i still don t know whats good or evil

but after interacting with people who have a moral compass for a few thousand years, i guess i know a bit about good and evil

i allways liked to make children happy, is that good ?


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## Mickiel (Sep 6, 2016)

Death Angel said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > I have asked myself why a God would need a hell, ( and by hell I mean the Christian version of it). I mean here this great being of life and love , is said to have created a place of eternal misery?
> ...




It will not destroy humans , it will season them; Mark 9:49,a teaching from Jesus," EVERYONE will be salted with fire." We all will go into the lake. And we all will come out of it born again.


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## hauke (Sep 6, 2016)

you do realize that god is neither good nor evil and good and evil ?

god is everythin god has no morals god is morality

god is good evil and nothing at all


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## koshergrl (Sep 6, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> I have asked myself why a God would need a hell, ( and by hell I mean the Christian version of it). I mean here this great being of life and love , is said to have created a place of eternal misery? And something is just not right with that, because it makes no sense at all. But a lot of things in religion make no sense, but religion rains on humanity, getting all of our consciousness wet in one manner or another.
> 
> My view of God, and I don't know God, have never seen him or heard his voice; is a view that I know is already distorted by many things; but I view him as merciful, loving, kind, forgiving, longsuffering, all the things that this Christian hell is not. So I don't think this hell is God's creation, I think the Christians created it. I think this eternal hell punishing is what Christians would do with unbelievers, not God. I think its moreso what the Christians want.
> 
> Why would God make an eternal monument out of evil? For what? Why would such a being of great power of change, co-exist with misery forever? Why? I can't see it. I think something is seriously wrong with this myopic view of hell! The powers that exist which can seduce the consciousness of humanity into believing nonsense, is simply stunning.


Because idiots reject God and the salvation of Christ. There has to be a place for them separate from the rest of us.


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## Mickiel (Sep 6, 2016)

koshergrl said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > I have asked myself why a God would need a hell, ( and by hell I mean the Christian version of it). I mean here this great being of life and love , is said to have created a place of eternal misery? And something is just not right with that, because it makes no sense at all. But a lot of things in religion make no sense, but religion rains on humanity, getting all of our consciousness wet in one manner or another.
> ...




God loves idiots much more than you do ; I am glad people like you have nothing to do with the salvation of idiots.


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## mudwhistle (Sep 6, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> I have asked myself why a God would need a hell, ( and by hell I mean the Christian version of it). I mean here this great being of life and love , is said to have created a place of eternal misery? And something is just not right with that, because it makes no sense at all. But a lot of things in religion make no sense, but religion rains on humanity, getting all of our consciousness wet in one manner or another.
> 
> My view of God, and I don't know God, have never seen him or heard his voice; is a view that I know is already distorted by many things; but I view him as merciful, loving, kind, forgiving, longsuffering, all the things that this Christian hell is not. So I don't think this hell is God's creation, I think the Christians created it. I think this eternal hell punishing is what Christians would do with unbelievers, not God. I think its moreso what the Christians want.
> 
> Why would God make an eternal monument out of evil? For what? Why would such a being of great power of change, co-exist with misery forever? Why? I can't see it. I think something is seriously wrong with this myopic view of hell! The powers that exist which can seduce the consciousness of humanity into believing nonsense, is simply stunning.


I always believed that Hell was on Earth.

The Truth About Hell


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## koshergrl (Sep 6, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> koshergrl said:
> 
> 
> > Mickiel said:
> ...


Salvation is through faith not works. I have nothing to do with salvation.

But I, along with all the rest of the saints, will have to do with judgement. I look forward to it.


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## Mickiel (Sep 6, 2016)

mudwhistle said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > I have asked myself why a God would need a hell, ( and by hell I mean the Christian version of it). I mean here this great being of life and love , is said to have created a place of eternal misery? And something is just not right with that, because it makes no sense at all. But a lot of things in religion make no sense, but religion rains on humanity, getting all of our consciousness wet in one manner or another.
> ...




More truth about hell;
What The Hell Is Hell?


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## Mickiel (Sep 6, 2016)

koshergrl said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > koshergrl said:
> ...




If God is going to allow Christians to judge the world , then his Kingdom is corrupt already.


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## koshergrl (Sep 6, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> mudwhistle said:
> 
> 
> > Mickiel said:
> ...



"WHEREAS, Rob Bell, in his 2011 book, Love Wins, has called into question the church’s historical teaching on the doctrine of eternal punishment of the unregenerate; and

WHEREAS, The church has addressed this issue throughout her history, yet orthodox Christians have affirmed consistently and resoundingly the reality of a literal Hell; and

WHEREAS, The Bible clearly teaches that God will judge the lost at the end of the age (Matthew 25:41-46; 2 Peter 2:9; Revelation 20:11-15); and

WHEREAS, God must judge the unregenerate because He is a holy God whose judgments are altogether righteous (Psalm 96:10; Romans 2:1-5; Revelation 15:3); and

WHEREAS, The Scriptures affirm that this judgment of the unconverted is a judgment unto conscious, eternal suffering apart from the steadfast love and grace of God (Matthew 7:23; 25:46; Luke 16:22-25; 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10); and

WHEREAS, The Bible precludes the possibility of any opportunity for salvation after death (Hebrews 9:27), urging sinners instead to embrace the glorious gospel today (2 Corinthians 6:2; Hebrews 2:3; 3:13); and

WHEREAS, Jesus Christ and the apostles, out of their love for lost people, affirmed the reality of Hell in their own preaching to urge sinners to receive the grace of God, to repent of their sins, and to believe the gospel, and thereby to enter into abundance of eternal life (Matthew 10:28; John 10:10; Acts 17:30-31); and

WHEREAS, The prospect of fellow human beings, created in the image of God, spending eternity in Hell grieves us deeply; and

WHEREAS, The Scriptures exhort the church to hold fast to and proclaim the “faith once for all delivered to the saints” (Jude 3) and to “guard the good deposit” of truth the Lord has entrusted to us in His Word (1 Timothy 6:20; 2 Timothy 1:14), including difficult truths; and

WHEREAS, The Baptist Faith & Message affirms the biblical teaching that “Christ will judge all men in righteousness. The unrighteous will be consigned to Hell, the place of everlasting punishment” (Article X. Last Things); now, therefore, be it

RESOLVED, That the messengers to the Southern Baptist Convention, meeting in Phoenix, Arizona, June 14-15, 2011, do hereby affirm our belief in the biblical teaching on eternal, conscious punishment of the unregenerate in Hell; and be it finally

RESOLVED, That out of our love for Christ and for His glory, and our love for lost people and our deep desire that they not suffer eternally in Hell, we implore Southern Baptists to proclaim faithfully the depth and gravity of sin against a holy God, the reality of Hell, and the salvation of sinners by God’s grace alone, through faith alone, in Jesus Christ alone, to the glory of God alone."

Southern Baptist Convention > On The Reality Of Hell


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## koshergrl (Sep 6, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> koshergrl said:
> 
> 
> > Mickiel said:
> ...



Colossians 2:8 

See to it that no one takes you captive by philosophy and empty deceit, according to human tradition, according to the elemental spirits of the world, and not according to Christ.


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## koshergrl (Sep 6, 2016)

John 15:18-21 

“If the world hates you, know that it has hated me before it hated you. If you were of the world, the world would love you as its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you. Remember the word that I said to you: ‘A servant is not greater than his master.’ If they persecuted me, they will also persecute you. If they kept my word, they will also keep yours. But all these things they will do to you on account of my name, because they do not know him who sent me. "


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## Mickiel (Sep 6, 2016)

If Christians judge the world ,  then the world is surely doomed!


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## koshergrl (Sep 6, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> koshergrl said:
> 
> 
> > Mickiel said:
> ...



1 Corinthians 6:2-3 

"Or do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if the world is to be judged by you, are you incompetent to try trivial cases? Do you not know that we are to judge angels? How much more, then, matters pertaining to this life! "


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## koshergrl (Sep 6, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> If Christians judge the world ,  then the world is surely doomed!


Revelation 21:8 

But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.”

*Romans 6:23 *
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

*Revelation 20:15 *
And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

*Matthew 25:46 *
And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”


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## Mickiel (Sep 6, 2016)

koshergrl said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > koshergrl said:
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Christians are not saints , they are hell mongers ; merciless and cruel toward unbelievers and idiots; God is not stupid , he will in no manner allow Christians to judge sinners.


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## Uncensored2008 (Sep 6, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> If Christians judge the world ,  then the world is surely doomed!



Christians judge after people die. Since I have no belief in an afterlife, this is of little consequence.

Muslims (with their democrat allies) slaughter people in THIS LIFE, imposing the punishment of the demon Allah on living people - THAT is an actual concern.


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## koshergrl (Sep 6, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> koshergrl said:
> 
> 
> > Mickiel said:
> ...



We are THE saints. Not to be confused with Catholic and Orthodox "saints".  And yes, Christians absolutely will be judging.

Make nice.

Poor punkin, this is beyond you, I think.


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## Mickiel (Sep 6, 2016)

Uncensored2008 said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > If Christians judge the world ,  then the world is surely doomed!
> ...




Christians would not slaughter unbelievers , they would keep them alive and punish them forever; an insanity for sure!


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## Mickiel (Sep 6, 2016)

koshergrl said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
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> > koshergrl said:
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You are a church in rebellion that would roast idiots like marshmellows and enjoy doing it.


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## Mickiel (Sep 6, 2016)

You Christians have slandered the reputation of God with your blood lust for sinners and your insane hell doctrine.


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## Uncensored2008 (Sep 6, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> Christians would not slaughter unbelievers , they would keep them alive and punish them forever; an insanity for sure!



It is amusing that those who claim not to believe in life after death throw a fit over threats of punishment - AFTER DEATH.

I'll clue you in, there is no hell. Threats from Christians mean not a thing - since you will be dead and cease to exist.

Now the ISIS allies of Hillary and Obama, the rusty knife and stonings are all too real.


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## Mickiel (Sep 6, 2016)

Uncensored2008 said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > Christians would not slaughter unbelievers , they would keep them alive and punish them forever; an insanity for sure!
> ...




I disagree with your view of Obama and your view of death;  hell is simply the grave, Christianity is just seriously deceived , being secretly used by satan to spread a corrupt gospel.


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## Death Angel (Sep 6, 2016)

Jesus warned of the death of the wicked. Take it for what it's worth. You're only PROVING the validity of the Scriptures.

Most importantly, I want to remind you that in the last days scoffers will come, mocking the truth and following their own desires -- Peter


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## Mickiel (Sep 6, 2016)

Death Angel said:


> Jesus warned of the death of the wicked. Take it for what it's worth. You're only PROVING the validity of the Scriptures.
> 
> Most importantly, I want to remind you that in the last days scoffers will come, mocking the truth and following their own desires -- Peter




You are suggesting that I am wicked , just because I disagree with Christians;  how Christian of you.


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## koshergrl (Sep 6, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> Death Angel said:
> 
> 
> > Jesus warned of the death of the wicked. Take it for what it's worth. You're only PROVING the validity of the Scriptures.
> ...


Everybody is wicked. Get over it.


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## Mickiel (Sep 6, 2016)

koshergrl said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > Death Angel said:
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And you  actually think God will use somebody who thinks like you to judge humanity? You must really think God is desperate for help.


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## koshergrl (Sep 6, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> koshergrl said:
> 
> 
> > Mickiel said:
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Not at all. It's the job He assigned us. We do as we're told. I'm quite certain he isn't having us do it because he NEEDS us to. I think it's more a matter of giving us things to do that will give us purpose.


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## Uncensored2008 (Sep 6, 2016)

koshergrl said:


> Everybody is wicked. Get over it.



In my life, I've met few people who are wicked.


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## koshergrl (Sep 6, 2016)

Uncensored2008 said:


> koshergrl said:
> 
> 
> > Everybody is wicked. Get over it.
> ...


Everybody is sinful. Just because  you don't recognize it doesn't mean anything except that  you don't recognize wickedness when you see it.


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## Uncensored2008 (Sep 6, 2016)

koshergrl said:


> Everybody is sinful. Just because  you don't recognize it doesn't mean anything except that  you don't recognize wickedness when you see it.



The Christian idea of sin is a long shot from wicked.

My mother claimed girls who wore skirts shorter than knee length were sinful. My Parents are German and drink wine. A good friend's parents claimed they were sinful for drinking alcohol (though never to excess)

"Sin" is a nonsense term. 

One is wicked who knowingly harms others.

I know few people who do so.


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## Death Angel (Sep 6, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> And you actually think God will use somebody who thinks like you to judge humanity? You must really think God is desperate for help.


*GOD* judges. I only post HIS words. You dont believe HIM, and you're offended that i do. Take it as you wish.


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## Death Angel (Sep 6, 2016)

Uncensored2008 said:


> In my life, I've met few people who are wicked.


GOD defines good and evil. I don't. Neither do you. I can give you examples from His Word that HE defines as good and evil. I'm guessing you'll grow even more angry if I do though.

Even Jesus, said to someone who approached Him, "Why do you call me good? There is none good but God in Heaven "


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## Death Angel (Sep 6, 2016)

Uncensored2008 said:


> "Sin" is a nonsense term.


"Sin" has a definition. I'm guessing you cannot define it. Yet you "label" it (nonsense).


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## Uncensored2008 (Sep 6, 2016)

Death Angel said:


> GOD defines good and evil. I don't. Neither do you. I can give you examples from His Word that HE defines as good and evil. I'm guessing you'll grow even more angry if I do though.
> 
> Even Jesus, said to someone who approached Him, "Why do you call me good? There is none good but God in Heaven "



You can give me examples of the words of goat herders and entrenched priests.

IF there is a god, none of his words are in your book.

But I have no reason to get angry. These words mean no more than the words of Batman in a comic book. Unless I am invested in the fiction, the words have little meaning to me.


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## Mickiel (Sep 6, 2016)

Death Angel said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > And you actually think God will use somebody who thinks like you to judge humanity? You must really think God is desperate for help.
> ...




God does not judge any human ,Jesus taught that in John 5:22;  you Christians just have judgment on the mind ;  you lust for judgment and condemnation. God will in no manner leave humanity to be judged by you Christians; your so self righteous you would shut up the Kingdom of God to most of humanity.

Again Jesus talking to self righteous believers in Matt.23:13"But woe to you Scribes and Pharisees , hypocrites! For you " Shut up the Kingdom of heaven against men." You preach your precious hell and limit God's great salvation only to your pitiful selves.


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## Uncensored2008 (Sep 6, 2016)

Death Angel said:


> Uncensored2008 said:
> 
> 
> > "Sin" is a nonsense term.
> ...



"Sin" is the name of an Egyptian god, which the Hebrews adopted to mean defiance of the religious precepts of Mosaic law. "Sin" includes such things as mixing dairy with vegetables. or weaving together different fibers.

Most of the truly absurd "sins" are ignored by Christians, pointing to Paul's statement about eating meat offered to idols as justification. Of course Paul was not consistent with the words attributed to Jesus.

{For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.} Matthew 5:18

As such, the shirt on your back is a "sin."


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## Mickiel (Sep 6, 2016)

I can hardly wait to see the disappointment in Christianity when God allows them to see that no one will be in their hell. And reveals to them his awesome grace and salvation.


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## Uncensored2008 (Sep 6, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> I can hardly wait to see the disappointment in Christianity when God allows them to see that no one will be in their hell. And reveals to them his awesome grace and salvation.




And who is this god of yours?

Certainly not the demon Allah, so just who do you call "god?"


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## Shusha (Sep 6, 2016)

Uncensored2008 said:


> "Sin" is the name of an Egyptian god, which the Hebrews adopted to mean defiance of the religious precepts of Mosaic law.



Out of curiosity, which Hebrew word are you using in this context?


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## koshergrl (Sep 6, 2016)

Uncensored2008 said:


> koshergrl said:
> 
> 
> > Everybody is sinful. Just because  you don't recognize it doesn't mean anything except that  you don't recognize wickedness when you see it.
> ...


That's just semantics, based on your own bias against what is essentially an archaic word that means "sinful" but for some reason is viewed by modern English speakers as somehow worse.

Merriam:

*Simple Definition of wicked*

: morally bad


: having or showing slightly bad thoughts in a way that is funny or not serious


: very bad or unpleasant
Definition of WICKED 
*Simple Definition of sinful*

: wrong according to religious or moral law


: very bad or *wicked*


: extremely enjoyable in a way that makes you feel guilty
Definition of SINFUL


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## Mickiel (Sep 6, 2016)

Uncensored2008 said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > I can hardly wait to see the disappointment in Christianity when God allows them to see that no one will be in their hell. And reveals to them his awesome grace and salvation.
> ...




God is not his name ,that is just used for our benefit; he was once asked who he was; he simply answered "I am that I am!" You can just call him" I Am" ,if you require a name. He is also called "Jehovah", amongst other names . I just call him Father , personally.


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## Divine Wind (Sep 6, 2016)

Clement said:


> You seem to have a lot on the ball but whoever put this graphic together is full of it. Take the Catholics, the Anglicans, the Baptists, the AG's, etc. and tell me which ones do not believe in the ancient creeds of the Church, and by that I mean the Baptismal vow known as the Apostle's creed. They all believe in it except for the non-Trinitarians. The Church is not divided.
> 
> And by the way, Athanasius was not a "white guy".


The fact remains there were several Christian beliefs about Jesus of Nazareth for the three centuries after the Crucifixion.  Particularly about his level of divinity.   The Trinity group won out, mostly by eliminating the competition.


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## Uncensored2008 (Sep 6, 2016)

Shusha said:


> Uncensored2008 said:
> 
> 
> > "Sin" is the name of an Egyptian god, which the Hebrews adopted to mean defiance of the religious precepts of Mosaic law.
> ...



Cha'aha and Ta'ah.


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## Divine Wind (Sep 6, 2016)

koshergrl said:


> Everybody is wicked. Get over it.


Not all to the same degree.  That's the difference.


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## Uncensored2008 (Sep 6, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> God is not his name ,that is just used for our benefit; he was once asked who he was; he simply answered "I am that I am!" You can just call him" I Am" ,if you require a name. He is also called "Jehovah", amongst other names . I just call him Father , personally.



I'm trying to figure out what religion you follow.

Jehovah's Witness?

Certainly not Mormon.

Not Bahia

Not Eastern.


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## Shusha (Sep 6, 2016)

Uncensored2008 said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > Uncensored2008 said:
> ...




And you are relating these to which Egyptian gods?


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## Uncensored2008 (Sep 6, 2016)

Shusha said:


> And you are relating these to which Egyptian gods?



Sin


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## koshergrl (Sep 6, 2016)

Divine.Wind said:


> koshergrl said:
> 
> 
> > Everybody is wicked. Get over it.
> ...


No, the difference is that some are saved, and some aren't.

 Any wickedness or sin is sufficient to prevent you from accessing heaven, which is a place in God's presence where there is NO sin. People who aren't saved see their goodness as a gradient...but to God, you're either saved...or you aren't. That simple.


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## Mickiel (Sep 6, 2016)

Uncensored2008 said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > God is not his name ,that is just used for our benefit; he was once asked who he was; he simply answered "I am that I am!" You can just call him" I Am" ,if you require a name. He is also called "Jehovah", amongst other names . I just call him Father , personally.
> ...




I am not religious , I walk alone ,I do not follow any religion or group or individual. I don't like pesky religions getting between me and God.


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## koshergrl (Sep 6, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> Uncensored2008 said:
> 
> 
> > Mickiel said:
> ...



Then you shouldn't start threads about religion. Just sayin.


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## Shusha (Sep 6, 2016)

Uncensored2008 said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > And you are relating these to which Egyptian gods?
> ...



The Akkadian god "Sin" (Summerian = Nanna)?

So you are saying that the Hebrews took the name of the god "Sin" and turned it into a concept (actually several concepts) of wrong-doing and then someone (Christians?  Greeks?  Early Hebrews?) restored the god's name from the Hebrew and called it "sin" again?

Where is the point in this?


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## Mickiel (Sep 6, 2016)

koshergrl said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > Uncensored2008 said:
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I will start what I please.


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## Death Angel (Sep 6, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> God does not judge any human ,Jesus taught that in John 5:22


You either can't read, or you're a liar. I believe you're just a liar. Trouble is, I can read. So let's look at the Scripture you use to justify your lie:

Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son

So who is the Son?

John 1:
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the* Word was God*.
Jesus was GOD AMONG US.

While I don't judge you, GOD does.
After the Resurrection of the dead, you WILL be judged by the Saints. Get used to that idea.

_Or do you not know that the Lord's people will judge the world? And if you are to judge the world, are you not competent to judge trivial cases?_


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## Death Angel (Sep 6, 2016)

Shusha said:


> The Akkadian god "Sin" (Summerian = Nanna)?
> 
> So you are saying that the Hebrews took the name of the god "Sin" and turned it into a concept (actually several concepts) of wrong-doing and then someone (Christians? Greeks? Early Hebrews?) restored the god's name from the Hebrew and called it "sin" again?
> 
> Where is the point in this?



There is no point. Words can have similar sounds in various languages. One has nothing to do with the other. 

He called "sin" nonsense. I told him it has a BIBLICAL definition. But he can't define it. Yet he has OPINIONS. He's venturing off into crazyland because he can't defend his rebellion and hatred of God.


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## Mickiel (Sep 6, 2016)

Death Angel said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > God does not judge any human ,Jesus taught that in John 5:22
> ...



\
The word was" a "God, it was not the Father God; they are two separate beings. The Father said in Isaiah 46:9 that he alone is God and there is none like him. Christians are not saints, they are a church of God in deception ; totally deceived about the truth and totally blind to it.


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## koshergrl (Sep 6, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> koshergrl said:
> 
> 
> > Mickiel said:
> ...


Then don't whine when people talk to you about it, and get all "in between you and God" lol.


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## koshergrl (Sep 6, 2016)

Death Angel said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > God does not judge any human ,Jesus taught that in John 5:22
> ...


Don't get between him and his god, now!


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## Mickiel (Sep 6, 2016)

koshergrl said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > koshergrl said:
> ...




I don't whine ,  I just don't like Christians. They are high minded wells without water.


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## koshergrl (Sep 6, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> koshergrl said:
> 
> 
> > Mickiel said:
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He whined.


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## Mickiel (Sep 6, 2016)

koshergrl said:


> Death Angel said:
> 
> 
> > Mickiel said:
> ...




That's right  , that space is sacred , I am not about to let Christianity into my head; I already  see what it has done to yours.


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## koshergrl (Sep 6, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> koshergrl said:
> 
> 
> > Death Angel said:
> ...



No, it's not sacred. Nothing about you is sacred. And no, you really don't see.


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## Mickiel (Sep 6, 2016)

koshergrl said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > koshergrl said:
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Explain to me why you are reading a thread by a man who cannot see? If you are not interested ,why are you so interested?


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## koshergrl (Sep 6, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> koshergrl said:
> 
> 
> > Mickiel said:
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What ridiculous commentary you poof.


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## Death Angel (Sep 6, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> The Father said in Isaiah 46:9 that he alone is God and there is none like him.


No, again you dont understand the Scriptures. The God of the OT was the Being born as Jesus.

Why did this God Being come? Among other reasons, HE SAID

_And no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son is willing to reveal him._


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## Divine Wind (Sep 6, 2016)

koshergrl said:


> No, the difference is that some are saved, and some aren't......


I know a lot of people who claim to be saved and have been baptized, but they certainly aren't walking in the footsteps of Christ. 



koshergrl said:


> ... Any wickedness or sin is sufficient to prevent you from accessing heaven, which is a place in God's presence where there is NO sin. People who aren't saved see their goodness as a gradient...but to God, you're either saved...or you aren't. That simple.


Yet you claimed we're all wicked so how can anyone go to heaven?  You're contradicting yourself, dear.

Secondly, it's God's place to judge what is in people's hearts and who deserves heaven not you.



koshergrl said:


> What ridiculous commentary you poof.


Hate and ridicule are wicked.  Just sayin'.


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## Mickiel (Sep 6, 2016)

koshergrl said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > koshergrl said:
> ...




Explain to me why this poofs thread has over 13,000 views? Including your views.


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## koshergrl (Sep 6, 2016)

Divine.Wind said:


> koshergrl said:
> 
> 
> > No, the difference is that some are saved, and some aren't......
> ...



No, I'm not contradicting myself hon. I said we are all wicked, and the only people who get into heaven are those who get to heaven are saved by Christ. He washes away the sin. It's not through any of our own doing.

I let God judge. I'm simply sharing the information that is in the Bible. Though of course the Bible says that we also judge. Now and later.


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## Mickiel (Sep 6, 2016)

Death Angel said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > The Father said in Isaiah 46:9 that he alone is God and there is none like him.
> ...




It can get confusing ,in some OT  scriptures it is Jesus ,but in others its the Father. One just has to understand which one is speaking. Jesus cannot say that he alone is God and its none like him. Jesus died , the Father has never died. The Father gave Jesus his life, John 5:26.In John 8:42 Jesus explains his origin;  he said he " Proceeded forth and came from God", which sounds like a birth to me.


----------



## Death Angel (Sep 6, 2016)

Divine.Wind said:


> I know a lot of people who claim to be saved and have been baptized, but they certainly aren't walking in the footsteps of Christ.


That's not for you to JUDGE. You need only worry whether YOU are.


----------



## Divine Wind (Sep 6, 2016)

koshergrl said:


> ...I let God judge....


Stick with that and you may become saved afterall.   Just saying "I accept Christ" then turning around and hating on others isn't going to make you look very good on Judgment Day.


----------



## Divine Wind (Sep 6, 2016)

Death Angel said:


> That's not for you to JUDGE. You need only worry whether YOU are.


Says a person who claims to be the Angel of Death.  LOL


----------



## Death Angel (Sep 6, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> It can get confusing ,in some OT scriptures it is Jesus ,but in others its the Father. One just has to understand which one is speaking.


Sorry, no. Jesus came to REVEAL the Father. He was not known. Most people assume the God of the OT was the Father. He was not. The God Moses was allowed to get a glimpse of as a true GOD BEING was the One born as Jesus.

It really is a point that needs to be well understood.
The Being born as Jesus was the One who created the universe and everything you hold near and dear. Once you understand that, it all falls into place.


----------



## koshergrl (Sep 6, 2016)

Divine.Wind said:


> koshergrl said:
> 
> 
> > ...I let God judge....
> ...



Don't worry about it, I'm good sweets. Now go judge elsewhere, you non-judger you.


----------



## koshergrl (Sep 6, 2016)

Death Angel said:


> Divine.Wind said:
> 
> 
> > I know a lot of people who claim to be saved and have been baptized, but they certainly aren't walking in the footsteps of Christ.
> ...


Isn't it funny it's always the ones who jump all over other people for daring to judge who are the most judgmental of all?


----------



## Mickiel (Sep 6, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> Death Angel said:
> 
> 
> > Mickiel said:
> ...




Jesus said in John 6:57 that he lives because of the Father; that cannot be said of the Father himself , he lives because of no one.


----------



## Mickiel (Sep 6, 2016)

Death Angel said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > It can get confusing ,in some OT scriptures it is Jesus ,but in others its the Father. One just has to understand which one is speaking.
> ...




Jesus created all things by Gods direction, he said in John 6:57 that he lives BECAUSE of the Father; that cannot be said of the Father, he lives because of no one. And when Jesus did all that creating , he did NOT do it of his own will, in John 8:28 he taught that he does NOTHING on his own , but only what the Father wills.


----------



## Death Angel (Sep 6, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> Jesus said in John 6:57 that he lives because of the Father; that cannot be said of the Father himself , he lives because of no one.


Jesus always acknowledged the Father is greater than He, but He told you HE (Jesus) is the Way and...

NO MAN CAN COME TO THE FATHER EXCEPT BY ME.


----------



## Mickiel (Sep 6, 2016)

Death Angel said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > Jesus said in John 6:57 that he lives because of the Father; that cannot be said of the Father himself , he lives because of no one.
> ...




Jesus also said no man can come to him except the Father draw them first.


----------



## Death Angel (Sep 6, 2016)

Yes. So has the Father drawn you to Jesus? Do you accept Him in EVERYTHING. Do you accept Him as your Lord and Savior?


----------



## Mickiel (Sep 6, 2016)

Death Angel said:


> Yes. So has the Father drawn you to Jesus? Do you accept Him in EVERYTHING. Do you accept Him as your Lord and Savior?



In my belief , salvation has nothing to do with human acceptance ,its the future of all of humanity whether they accept it or not. Its our free destiny;  its the unstoppable will of God. There is no choice in the matter. There are no choices with God , you just do as he wills ,  it will be what he wants;  that is the real God ;  its how it really is in heaven.


----------



## Divine Wind (Sep 6, 2016)

Death Angel said:


> That's not for you to JUDGE. You need only worry whether YOU are.


Correct.  Now try saying that into a mirror.


----------



## Divine Wind (Sep 6, 2016)

koshergrl said:


> Isn't it funny it's always the ones who jump all over other people for daring to judge who are the most judgmental of all?


You forgot to call me a name when you backstabbed.


----------



## Clement (Sep 7, 2016)

Divine.Wind said:


> Clement said:
> 
> 
> > You seem to have a lot on the ball but whoever put this graphic together is full of it. Take the Catholics, the Anglicans, the Baptists, the AG's, etc. and tell me which ones do not believe in the ancient creeds of the Church, and by that I mean the Baptismal vow known as the Apostle's creed. They all believe in it except for the non-Trinitarians. The Church is not divided.
> ...



Number one, the Trinity group did NOT "eliminate the competition". What they did was make a convincing case, or perhaps you have not heard of Irenaeus, Clement, Anthony, and Ignatius, most of whom predate Nicea?


----------



## Divine Wind (Sep 7, 2016)

Clement said:


> *Number one, the Trinity group did NOT "eliminate the competition".* What they did was make a convincing case, or perhaps you have not heard of Irenaeus, Clement, Anthony, and Ignatius, most of whom predate Nicea?


Disagreed.  They declared those who didn't accept the Church view as being heretics and blasphemers.  What was the penalty for these crimes in those days?   Hint:  What happened to Joan of Arc?

What about "Clement, Anthony, and Ignatius"?  Don't you know that ideas floated around long before being canonized as official doctrine?  Who and why did a church official turn Mary Magdalene into a whore?


----------



## Mickiel (Sep 7, 2016)

Clement said:


> Divine.Wind said:
> 
> 
> > Clement said:
> ...




They did not use the bible to make that case ,  because the trinity is nowhere in the bible. Its a doctrine created by Christianity.


----------



## Clement (Sep 7, 2016)

Divine.Wind said:


> Clement said:
> 
> 
> > *Number one, the Trinity group did NOT "eliminate the competition".* What they did was make a convincing case, or perhaps you have not heard of Irenaeus, Clement, Anthony, and Ignatius, most of whom predate Nicea?
> ...



The penalty was excommunication, as Arius eventually eventually was, although when he came back the Church took him back. Where do you get your history from? 

Joan of Arc and the Nicene council are separated by 1300 years of history, get your facts straight. And trinitarian theology was "floating around" because the apostles floated it. But the heretics existed even then. You know, just because someone believes something other than orthodoxy, that doesn't make it valid.


----------



## Mickiel (Sep 7, 2016)

Clement said:


> Divine.Wind said:
> 
> 
> > Clement said:
> ...




The term Trinity is not even in the bible period! It exist only in the Christian mindset.


----------



## Divine Wind (Sep 7, 2016)

Clement said:


> The penalty was excommunication, as Arius eventually eventually was, although when he came back the Church took him back. Where do you get your history from?
> 
> Joan of Arc and the Nicene council are separated by 1300 years of history, get your facts straight. And trinitarian theology was "floating around" because the apostles floated it. But the heretics existed even then. You know, just because someone believes something other than orthodoxy, that doesn't make it valid.


An excellent dance.  Obviously you're not a Baptist. 

So, according to you, the Catholics never burned, killed or otherwise harmed anyone who didn't toe Papist line.  So where did you learn your history?  At Catechism?


----------



## turzovka (Sep 7, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> Death Angel said:
> 
> 
> > Yes. So has the Father drawn you to Jesus? Do you accept Him in EVERYTHING. Do you accept Him as your Lord and Savior?
> ...


What religion is teaching you that?   Or is this your own belief system?

Sorry, but it makes zero sense.     We are not on trial here on earth for no good reason.    God does not allow suffering for no good reason.   God takes no pleasure in having someone pre-destined to an eternity of perdition.     

Nor are your thoughts or theories on the Trinity of any sound value.   

And where do you get the idea that everything that God has revealed must be in the Bible?


----------



## Divine Wind (Sep 7, 2016)

turzovka said:


> ...We are not on trial here on earth for no good reason.    God does not allow suffering for no good reason.   God takes no pleasure in having someone pre-destined to an eternity of perdition.
> 
> Nor are your thoughts or theories on the Trinity of any sound value.
> 
> And where do you get the idea that everything that God has revealed must be in the Bible?


Who says we're on trial?  What religion is teaching you this? 

Suffering is relative.  There are only a few phrases in the Gospels which are repeated across most/all of them.  One is this: "*For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?*"

Mark 8:36

Matthew 16:26

Luke 9:25

Sending kids to school is hard.  It's tough growing up, but, as the saying goes, "adversity breeds character".   Life isn't punishment nor are we on trial.  We've been given a great gift and it's up to each of us to decide what to do with it.  Regardless if our life is long or short, joyful or painful, the fact remains, like high school, it's temporary.  At the end is eternity in God's grace for those who choose to step into that light.


----------



## Mickiel (Sep 7, 2016)

turzovka said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > Death Angel said:
> ...




I don't learn from religions , they all are deceived in my view. I trust only what is in my mind and consciousness , and the bible. I could careless who agrees with me or not.


----------



## turzovka (Sep 7, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> turzovka said:
> 
> 
> > Mickiel said:
> ...


Well it is of my opinion that you only pull from Scripture what lines up with your preferred beliefs. 

Because much of what you contend can be disproven using the Bible alone.    Although, nowhere am I taught that the Bible alone is our source for the Lord's revelations.   Much else is given and comes from the Catholic Church, the Church established by Christ in Scripture.


----------



## Mickiel (Sep 7, 2016)

turzovka said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > turzovka said:
> ...




I don't agree with the " Cherry picking scriptures notion", I cannot pick  scriptures that are not there to pick. All scripture is open for use. I like those which give salvation to everyone. God can use anything he wants to reveal truth ,not just the bible, I agree with that notion. The Catholic church was not the church established by Christ,  but the Church established by him did morph into the Catholic church.


----------



## Clement (Sep 7, 2016)

Divine.Wind said:


> Clement said:
> 
> 
> > The penalty was excommunication, as Arius eventually eventually was, although when he came back the Church took him back. Where do you get your history from?
> ...



We were talking about the fourth century, specifically, the divinity of Jesus, stay on point. The situation with Arius, one of the most notorious heretics (along with Valetinius) is exactly as I described, see for yourself. You're the one who is tap dancing around.


----------



## Clement (Sep 7, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> Clement said:
> 
> 
> > Divine.Wind said:
> ...



The idea that the Bible is the only thing you need is not in the Bible, either.


----------



## Mickiel (Sep 7, 2016)

Clement said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > Clement said:
> ...




Well at least one sign you may be a free thinker .I thought you were bound.


----------



## Clement (Sep 8, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> Clement said:
> 
> 
> > Mickiel said:
> ...



You think a lot of things that aren't so.


----------



## Divine Wind (Sep 8, 2016)

Clement said:


> We were talking about the fourth century, specifically, the divinity of Jesus, stay on point. The situation with Arius, one of the most notorious heretics (along with Valetinius) is exactly as I described, see for yourself. You're the one who is tap dancing around.


Ahh, so you finally admit there were differences of opinion and the one opinion eliminated the competition.  Why did it take you so long to admit the truth? 

As for your denial the Church hurt people, here's a link you are free to deny:
In case you missed it... Your 60-second guide to heresy
*In case you missed it... Your 60-second guide to heresy*
_
Thousands were burned at the stake for heresy in the 11th and 12th centuries. But what were their crimes, and how did these individuals – often known as Cathars – fall victim to this terrible punishment?
_
_BBC History Magazine - 5 issues for £5_
_





Professor Bob Moore, a scholar of medieval religious heresy, is to explore the Cathars at a lecture at the University of Nottingham.

In an interview with History Extra, he reveals everything you need to know about heresy

Q: What was medieval heresy?

A: Heresy was an opinion about the teaching of the Catholic church, which was condemned by the church as inconsistent with it.

From the early 11th century, many people accused of heresy were burned at the stake as a result. In 1022, people who were considered heretics were burned for the first time since antiquity.

Q: Who were heretics?

A: It’s impossible to group them over such a huge time period, but until around 1160 only a small number were put to the stake. And they would have been alleged to be leaders of heretic groups.

From then onwards, you start to see ordinary people being put to death too.

Q: How many people were burned for being heretics?

A: Again, impossible to say, but we do know that on many occasions heretics were burned in large groups – sometimes 200 at a time. That gives you an idea of the scale.

Q: What did heretics believe?

A: Every group believed different things.

There is a widely held assumption that heretics who were burned in southern France were part of a Europe-wide heretic movement, who believed there were two gods: one good, and one evil.

But this is not my view – I will be expanding on this in my lecture.

Most heretics – the ones we can identify, that is – tended to believe a very simple form of Christianity, based on literal readings of the New Testament.

They placed high value on chastity, and were opposed to any ostentatious wealth and to the wealth and power structure of the church.

That’s where they came into conflict with the church.

Q: How were heretics treated?

A: This changed over time. The usual assumption is that the Middle Ages was the ‘age of faith’, when people hated heretics. But I don’t think that’s true.

There is no indication that they did not get on and coexist with Catholics until outsiders such as crusaders and inquisitors came in.

For example, the 20-year Albigensian crusade, which began in 1209, was accompanied and followed up by persecution.

Q: Who were the Cathars?

A: If you visit the south of France today, you’ll see there’s huge tourist activity that rotates around the word ‘Cathars’ [a Christian sect that believed the devil made the world and everything in it, and that the sacraments of the church were not true sacraments of Christ, but devilish frauds of a church of the wicked].

But people who were called heretics were not called Cathars in the Middle Ages.

There is a disagreement between historians about whether it’s right to call these people Cathars. Why does that matter? Because if you simply call all heretics Cathars then you are implying that they are part of a European-wide movement – an ‘anti-church’ group pitted against the Roman church.

I argue that this idea of there being a link between heretics in this region and the rest of Europe is complete fantasy and nonsense.....

....
Q: Where and when did religious heresy originate?

A: From the early 11th century, but slowly at first – then, more and more people were accused of holding heretical beliefs. There are two major reasons for that.

Firstly, it may have been the case that people accused were in conflict with the ecclesiastical authority – ie priests who were causing problems for their bishops by being outspoken about the shortcomings of the church. In this case, being accused of heresy was about ecclesiastical discipline.

Secondly, lay people who were accused may have been in conflict with the church over property or revenues. From the late 11th century, the Roman church went through a process of reform – based, in the first place, on the demands that its appointments should be made without the intervention of secular authority, and that its priests should be celibate.

The first meant that considerable wealth – ie land – was at the disposal of the church. That was acceptable to the lay nobility on the basis of clerical celibacy, so that churchmen could not use church land to found rival dynasties.

However, there were those purists who didn’t want to compromise, and so they had to be weeded out. For example, priests who refused to compromise were condemned. This was the main source of accusations of heresy in the 12th century.

But it’s important to note that heresy wasn’t just about the church. In fact, the people who moved fastest against accused heretics were lay rulers, not churchmen.

And it’s not just about religion – from the 12th century onwards, persecution became more extreme against lepers, sodomites, prostitutes and Jews. And that sort of thing has been going on ever since._


----------



## Clement (Sep 8, 2016)

Divine.Wind said:


> Clement said:
> 
> 
> > We were talking about the fourth century, specifically, the divinity of Jesus, stay on point. The situation with Arius, one of the most notorious heretics (along with Valetinius) is exactly as I described, see for yourself. You're the one who is tap dancing around.
> ...



Straw man argument, you lose. We discussed nothing of the sort, that's all in your head.

By the way I read BOOKS, not websites, if anything is good enough for a print book you know it will hold up for a while, unlike websites, which are here today and gone tomorrow. You Internet "scholars" crack
me up.


----------



## Mickiel (Sep 8, 2016)

Trying to take hell from a Christian is like trying to take candy from a crying baby. They act like they can't do without it.


----------



## Uncensored2008 (Sep 8, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> [
> That's right  , that space is sacred , I am not about to let Christianity into my head; I already  see what it has done to yours.



Why do you quote the Christian Bible then?

You seem, confused.


----------



## Mickiel (Sep 8, 2016)

Uncensored2008 said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > [
> ...




Please think with me ,IF you can; there is no such thing as the Christian bible. The bible has no copy rights , no group owns it. Christianity  just has the super selfish gall to think they do. Really Christianity is confused by this . The bible has about 40 authors , only 7 can be considered as Christians ;

Hello!


----------



## Clement (Sep 8, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> Trying to take hell from a Christian is like trying to take candy from a crying baby. They act like they can't do without it.



I can do without it, I hope YOU can.


----------



## Uncensored2008 (Sep 8, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> Please think with me ,IF you can; there is no such thing as the Christian bible. The bible has no copy rights , no group owns it. Christianity  just has the super selfish gall to think they do. Really Christianity is confused by this . The bible has about 40 authors , only 7 can be considered as Christians ;
> 
> Hello!





Son, the Council of Nicea established the Christian Bible - it absolutely is a Christian book. The Christians created it - you simply misunderstand and misinterpret it.


----------



## Mickiel (Sep 8, 2016)

Uncensored2008 said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > Please think with me ,IF you can; there is no such thing as the Christian bible. The bible has no copy rights , no group owns it. Christianity  just has the super selfish gall to think they do. Really Christianity is confused by this . The bible has about 40 authors , only 7 can be considered as Christians ;
> ...



Most of the bible was written before Christianity was born; 39 books penned by non Christians ,  your religion cannot steal authorship from the bible . The monster pride of Christianity has assumed it  controls the bible ; that book was written for humanity ,not you pious Christians.


----------



## Divine Wind (Sep 8, 2016)

Uncensored2008 said:


> Son, the Council of Nicea established the Christian Bible - it absolutely is a Christian book. The Christians created it - you simply misunderstand and misinterpret it.


I agree that the Council of Nicaea established the Christian Bible.  However, 1) since there are over 30,000 Christian denominations, it appears even the canonized Bible is subject to interpretation and 2) There are a lot of books excluded by the Council of Nicaea which give a fuller picture of the times.


----------



## Divine Wind (Sep 8, 2016)

Clement said:


> Straw man argument, you lose. *We discussed nothing of the sort, that's all in your head*.....


Lying doesn't make you a winner. 





Clement said:


> Divine.Wind said:
> 
> 
> > Clement said:
> ...


----------



## Mickiel (Sep 8, 2016)

Divine.Wind said:


> Uncensored2008 said:
> 
> 
> > Son, the Council of Nicea established the Christian Bible - it absolutely is a Christian book. The Christians created it - you simply misunderstand and misinterpret it.
> ...




There is no such thing as the Christian bible, 75% of the book was written before Christianity and the council of Nicaea even existed. But the intense pride of Christianity cannot see this true history. Produce to me any Christian copy rights that give them ownership of the bible ; I challenge you Christians to prove you have legal rights on the bible.

Prove your legal rights.


----------



## Divine Wind (Sep 8, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> There is no such thing as the Christian bible, 75% of the book was written before Christianity and the council of Nicaea even existed. But the intense pride of Christianity cannot see this true history. Produce to me any Christian copy rights that give them ownership of the bible ; I challenge you Christians to prove you have legal rights on the bible.
> 
> Prove your legal rights.


Copyright?  LOL  Man, you are really desperate here. 

Ask a diverse group of Christians what Bible they use, and, AFAIK, they'll all come up with the same canonized Bible albeit there are several translations out there: BibleGateway.com: A searchable online Bible in over 150 versions and 50 languages.

Bible - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


----------



## Uncensored2008 (Sep 8, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> Most of the bible was written before Christianity was born; 39 books penned by non Christians ,  your religion cannot steal authorship from the bible . The monster pride of Christianity has assumed it  controls the bible ; that book was written for humanity ,not you pious Christians.



You fail to pay attention, I am agnostic.

The Old Testament was written by Hebrews, the New Testament by Christians. It is simply the holy book of the Christians, attempting to claim otherwise is irrational.


----------



## Uncensored2008 (Sep 8, 2016)

Divine.Wind said:


> Uncensored2008 said:
> 
> 
> > Son, the Council of Nicea established the Christian Bible - it absolutely is a Christian book. The Christians created it - you simply misunderstand and misinterpret it.
> ...



I agree.

These all denominations all fall under the umbrella of "Christian" though.


----------



## Mickiel (Sep 8, 2016)

Uncensored2008 said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > Most of the bible was written before Christianity was born; 39 books penned by non Christians ,  your religion cannot steal authorship from the bible . The monster pride of Christianity has assumed it  controls the bible ; that book was written for humanity ,not you pious Christians.
> ...




I am not seduced by this large deception, the bible was written by men inspired by the Holy Spirit , not inspired by Christianity. The Christian ego just equates itself to be equal to the Holy Spirit. Neither God , Jesus or the Holy Spirit are Christians. And anyone who claims they are , are simply deceived.


----------



## Divine Wind (Sep 8, 2016)

Uncensored2008 said:


> Divine.Wind said:
> 
> 
> > Uncensored2008 said:
> ...


Agreed and the book they is use is the "Christian Bible" as opposed to any other bible.


----------



## Divine Wind (Sep 8, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> I am not seduced by this large deception,* the bible was written by men inspired by the Holy Spirit , not inspired by Christianity. *The Christian ego just equates itself to be equal to the Holy Spirit. Neither God , Jesus or the Holy Spirit are Christians. And anyone who claims they are , are simply deceived.


In your opinion.


----------



## Uncensored2008 (Sep 8, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> I am not seduced by this large deception, the bible was written by men inspired by the Holy Spirit , not inspired by Christianity. The Christian ego just equates itself to be equal to the Holy Spirit. Neither God , Jesus or the Holy Spirit are Christians. And anyone who claims they are , are simply deceived.



Again, I am agnostic, I deal in facts, not fantasy. The Bible is a collection of works put together to form the foundation and canon of the Christian faith.

Your fantasy does not alter reality.


----------



## OnePercenter (Sep 8, 2016)

God doesn't. Religion does for the money. COME PUT MONEY IN THE OFFERING BOWL AND BE SAVED!!!!!


----------



## Mickiel (Sep 8, 2016)

Divine.Wind said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > I am not seduced by this large deception,* the bible was written by men inspired by the Holy Spirit , not inspired by Christianity. *The Christian ego just equates itself to be equal to the Holy Spirit. Neither God , Jesus or the Holy Spirit are Christians. And anyone who claims they are , are simply deceived.
> ...




Well then show us ANY scripture that claims God ,  Jesus and the Holy Spirit are Christians. This I got to see.


----------



## Mickiel (Sep 8, 2016)

Uncensored2008 said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > I am not seduced by this large deception, the bible was written by men inspired by the Holy Spirit , not inspired by Christianity. The Christian ego just equates itself to be equal to the Holy Spirit. Neither God , Jesus or the Holy Spirit are Christians. And anyone who claims they are , are simply deceived.
> ...




The term Christian only appears in some bibles two or three times ; 99% then of the bible never refers to Christianity. Prove to me that is wrong.

This I got to see.


----------



## Uncensored2008 (Sep 8, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> The term Christian only appears in some bibles two or three times ; 99% then of the bible never refers to Christianity. Prove to me that is wrong.
> 
> This I got to see.



Your straw man fallacy fails to impress.

All of the books of the New Testament deal with Christ. These were compiled by the established church as the canon of the Christian faith. Your fantasy does not supersede reality,


----------



## Shusha (Sep 8, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> Please think with me ,IF you can; there is no such thing as the Christian bible. The bible has no copy rights , no group owns it. Christianity  just has the super selfish gall to think they do. Really Christianity is confused by this . The bible has about 40 authors , only 7 can be considered as Christians ;
> 
> Hello!



In other words, I can pick whatever I like out of all the writings which just happen to be included in the Christian Bible and accept or reject the ideas at the whim of whether or not they suit my personal belief system, while entirely ignoring all the other sacred literature in the world as irrelevant.  But, nope, its got nothing at all to do with Christianity.


----------



## Uncensored2008 (Sep 8, 2016)

OnePercenter said:


> God doesn't. Religion does for the money. COME PUT MONEY IN THE OFFERING BOWL AND BE SAVED!!!!!



Perhaps, but you Communists hold that salvation is in taking the wealth of others at the point of a gun. I would take religion over you, any day of the week.


----------



## Shusha (Sep 8, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> ... that book was written for humanity ...



The sacred writings of the Hebrew (read: Jewish) people were most certainly not written for humanity.  I would argue that the Christian writings were not written for humanity, in general, either.  They were written for a certain group of people, at a certain time, for a certain purpose.  

One could argue the Baha'i sacred writings were written for all of humanity.


----------



## Shusha (Sep 8, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> The term Christian only appears in some bibles two or three times ; 99% then of the bible never refers to Christianity. Prove to me that is wrong.
> 
> This I got to see.



Oh, what a ridiculous argument -- that things don't exist until they are labelled, or re-labelled.


----------



## Mickiel (Sep 8, 2016)

Uncensored2008 said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > The term Christian only appears in some bibles two or three times ; 99% then of the bible never refers to Christianity. Prove to me that is wrong.
> ...




In my view God is using the Christian faith to assist him in blinding all of humanity from his truth. Romans 11:32 " For God has shut THEM ALL up in unbelief, so that he can show Mercy TO THEM ALL!" God has done this , and Christianity cannot undo it. The pathology of God is far from our thoughts , the very church claiming him as their own , is being used to help satan deceive a world.

Incredible ;  simply incredible!


----------



## Uncensored2008 (Sep 8, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> [
> 
> 
> In my view God is using the Christian faith to assist him in blinding all of humanity from his truth. Romans 11:32 " For God has shut THEM ALL up in unbelief, so that he can show Mercy TO THEM ALL!" God has done this , and Christianity cannot undo it. The pathology of God is far from our thoughts , the very church claiming him as their own , is being used to help satan deceive a world.
> ...



I see no evidence that there is a god. So your rejection of fact in preference to a god of your own creation fails to impress.

I can at least understand the Christians, who form their faith on a foundation, but you're just making it up as you go.


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## Shusha (Sep 8, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> In my view God is using the Christian faith to assist him in blinding all of humanity from his truth.



Well, this at least refers back to the point of the thread.  Why would G-d want to blind humanity from His truth?  What purpose would that serve?


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## Mickiel (Sep 8, 2016)

Uncensored2008 said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > [
> ...




I was once asked if God was real ;  here was my answer;

Is God Real?


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## Mickiel (Sep 8, 2016)

Shusha said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > In my view God is using the Christian faith to assist him in blinding all of humanity from his truth.
> ...



The verse gives the answer , so that he can give Mercy to us all. He blinded us in order to give us sight later on. He killed us so that he can give us life! Strange , this thinking of this awesome being.


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## Shusha (Sep 8, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> The verse gives the answer , so that he can give Mercy to us all. He blinded us in order to give us sight later on. He killed us so that he can give us life! Strange , this thinking of this awesome being.



"Strange" would not be the word that immediately comes to my mind.  Kinda sounds like the abusive husband who beats his wife to grievous bodily harm so she will learn to enjoy it when he beats her with less enthusiasm.  Stockholm Syndrome.  Yeah, that's what comes to mind.


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## Mickiel (Sep 8, 2016)

Shusha said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > The verse gives the answer , so that he can give Mercy to us all. He blinded us in order to give us sight later on. He killed us so that he can give us life! Strange , this thinking of this awesome being.
> ...




Well that's close to the reasoning of God. He created sin and evil to make us suffer from it, Isaiah 45:7 " I form the light and create darkness;  I make peace and create evil. I the Lord do ALL these things." He wants us all to know what evil will cause, and we all will know his way is better by the time he is finished.


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## Shusha (Sep 8, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> Well that's close to the reasoning of God. He created sin and evil to make us suffer from it ...



So, the god of your belief system (and it is very much a Christian belief system, regardless of what label you want to pretend doesn't apply to you), is a morally hideous asshole, of the kind we fight to rid the world of.  A caretaker who uses violence and suffering and pain and ugliness while calling it "love" and "mercy".  

I really don't know how you can believe in that kind of "god".  (Except, you know, Stockholm).


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## Mickiel (Sep 8, 2016)

Shusha said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > Well that's close to the reasoning of God. He created sin and evil to make us suffer from it ...
> ...




Well yes , God can be hard on humanity, a part of him could care less who understands him or agrees with him. Notice Isaiah 40:17 ," All nations before him are as nothing ,  they are counted by him as LESS than nothing and meaningless!" Our opinions of him are seen by him as completely meaningless. And there is absolutely nothing any of us can do about it ; he has saved us all ; period!


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## Shusha (Sep 8, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> Well yes , God can be hard on humanity, a part of him could care less who understands him or agrees with him. Notice Isaiah 40:17 ," All nations before him are as nothing ,  they are counted by him as LESS than nothing and meaningless!" Our opinions of him are seen by him as completely meaningless. And there is absolutely nothing any of us can do about it ; he has saved us all ; period!



Um.  He beat the shit out of us, so when he removed his shit-kicking he could be the hero who saved us?  More Stockholm.  You do get how crazy that sounds, right?


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## Mickiel (Sep 8, 2016)

Shusha said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > Well yes , God can be hard on humanity, a part of him could care less who understands him or agrees with him. Notice Isaiah 40:17 ," All nations before him are as nothing ,  they are counted by him as LESS than nothing and meaningless!" Our opinions of him are seen by him as completely meaningless. And there is absolutely nothing any of us can do about it ; he has saved us all ; period!
> ...




I think it is kind of crazy, yes for sure. And God knows how different he is compared to humans. In Isaiah 55:8 " My thoughts are not your thoughts , your ways are not my ways . Its kind of like he is rubbing our faces in evil ,to one day show us it is WHY we are sick. He is most definitely beating the crap out of us all, which is why I reject the Christian version of eternal suffering, because human life is NOT our fault. We did NOT create ourselves ;  God is completely responsible for us all; and we all are VERY fortunate of that.


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## Campbell (Sep 8, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> I have asked myself why a God would need a hell, ( and by hell I mean the Christian version of it). I mean here this great being of life and love , is said to have created a place of eternal misery? And something is just not right with that, because it makes no sense at all. But a lot of things in religion make no sense, but religion rains on humanity, getting all of our consciousness wet in one manner or another.
> 
> My view of God, and I don't know God, have never seen him or heard his voice; is a view that I know is already distorted by many things; but I view him as merciful, loving, kind, forgiving, longsuffering, all the things that this Christian hell is not. So I don't think this hell is God's creation, I think the Christians created it. I think this eternal hell punishing is what Christians would do with unbelievers, not God. I think its moreso what the Christians want.
> 
> Why would God make an eternal monument out of evil? For what? Why would such a being of great power of change, co-exist with misery forever? Why? I can't see it. I think something is seriously wrong with this myopic view of hell! The powers that exist which can seduce the consciousness of humanity into believing nonsense, is simply stunning.


 
There Is No God!! Fairy tales are for children!


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## Mickiel (Sep 8, 2016)

Campbell said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > I have asked myself why a God would need a hell, ( and by hell I mean the Christian version of it). I mean here this great being of life and love , is said to have created a place of eternal misery? And something is just not right with that, because it makes no sense at all. But a lot of things in religion make no sense, but religion rains on humanity, getting all of our consciousness wet in one manner or another.
> ...



My response to that in 2013;

Is God Real?
;


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## Shusha (Sep 8, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> .... He is most definitely beating the crap out of us all ... God is completely responsible for us all; and we all are VERY fortunate of that.



Again, "fortunate" is not the word that comes to mind.  

Yay!  I have an abusive husband!  Whoo hoo!  Lucky me.  

Uh, no.


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## hobelim (Sep 8, 2016)

Campbell said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > I have asked myself why a God would need a hell, ( and by hell I mean the Christian version of it). I mean here this great being of life and love , is said to have created a place of eternal misery? And something is just not right with that, because it makes no sense at all. But a lot of things in religion make no sense, but religion rains on humanity, getting all of our consciousness wet in one manner or another.
> ...




If the Bible is a bunch of fairy tales,  for children, as old as you are you should have no problem identifying the moral and teaching of any given story.

Lets start at the beginning....The talking serpent, the expulsion from Eden, and all that. What are the hard learned lessons of the distant past that this story intended to teach bronze age children?

I'm all ears...


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## Mickiel (Sep 8, 2016)

hobelim said:


> Campbell said:
> 
> 
> > Mickiel said:
> ...




With pleasure ;  the events in the garden of Eden , was simply God creating the need for his Son to be sent to earth so that the bronze age children could be saved.


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## Mickiel (Sep 8, 2016)

Shusha said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > .... He is most definitely beating the crap out of us all ... God is completely responsible for us all; and we all are VERY fortunate of that.
> ...




The pain God inflicts lead to eternal joy with him.


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## OnePercenter (Sep 8, 2016)

Uncensored2008 said:


> OnePercenter said:
> 
> 
> > God doesn't. Religion does for the money. COME PUT MONEY IN THE OFFERING BOWL AND BE SAVED!!!!!
> ...



I'm not a communist, I'm a capitalist racketeer.


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## Mickiel (Sep 8, 2016)

OnePercenter said:


> Uncensored2008 said:
> 
> 
> > OnePercenter said:
> ...




Religion is the biggest racket on earth.


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## Uncensored2008 (Sep 8, 2016)

OnePercenter said:


> I'm not a communist, I'm a capitalist racketeer.



You're a Communist liar and fool literally no one.

The "telecommunications mogul" who doesn't know what a CLEC is..


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## Shusha (Sep 8, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > Mickiel said:
> ...



Yeah.  That's what my ex-husband said too.  I call bullshit.


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## Mickiel (Sep 8, 2016)

Shusha said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > Shusha said:
> ...




Being created in the flesh is bull , but its a cross we all must bear. Your ex husband is meaningless to the future God has for you.


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## Shusha (Sep 8, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> Being created in the flesh is bull , but its a cross we all must bear. Your ex husband is meaningless to the future God has for you.



A god who beats me in order to make me suffer is just as meaningless to me as an abusive ex-husband would be.


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## Mickiel (Sep 8, 2016)

Shusha said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > Being created in the flesh is bull , but its a cross we all must bear. Your ex husband is meaningless to the future God has for you.
> ...




I know , which is why your future with him has absolutely nothing to do with what you think of him.


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## Mickiel (Sep 8, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > Mickiel said:
> ...


In Rev. 1:8  God is the beginning and the end of all life ; meaning he is the complete cycle of our lives ; everything we go through ,he planned it.


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## Campbell (Sep 8, 2016)

hobelim said:


> Campbell said:
> 
> 
> > Mickiel said:
> ...



My explanation to all of that ancient bullshit has been made a dozen or more times. Actually fairy tales are much more honest. At least nobody gets hurt or has to tie up their hard earned money in that.


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## hobelim (Sep 8, 2016)

Campbell said:


> hobelim said:
> 
> 
> > Campbell said:
> ...


 
If as you say the stories are fairy tales for children then if they were like every other people and culture they were intended for instruction, not likely a bunch of ancient bullshit. And its never been a secret that Torah happens to mean instruction.

I was looking for something specific.

What or who does the talking serpent represent, what do trees with fruit that is pleasing to the eye and good to eat represent? Why was it forbidden to eat the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil? What does the fruit eaten represent? How and why did those who eat of it die? What type of death did they die? Where is east of Eden? What is a Cherubim ? What does the flaming and flashing sword that turns in every direction mean?

Now I know it is much easier for an old curmudgeon like you to just blow it all off as irrelevant but that doesn't conceal the fact that for your entire life you haven't been able to figure out what those ignorant ancient goat herders were teaching their children.

Seriously,  if you can't figure out what ancient goat herders expected children to comprehend, then perhaps you should include in your speculations that modern people may not be as highly intelligent as you like to think they are, including you.


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## Campbell (Sep 9, 2016)

hobelim said:


> Campbell said:
> 
> 
> > hobelim said:
> ...



I'm doing just fine Thanks. I live in a brick basement rancher on 1 1/2 acres of zoysia grass with 220 ft. of lake frontage. I have a built in irrigation system which is supplied from the lake. I have a new dock, new pontoon boat and two 2014 cars. I've been retired with a comfortable pension for over twenty years. See.....now you won't have to worry about me any longer.


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## Campbell (Sep 9, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > Shusha said:
> ...



LOL....we suspected you would have all the answers. Have you reinforced that aluminum liner for your hat yet?

"I cannot imagine a God who rewards and punishes the objects of his creation, whose purposes are modeled after our own--a God, in short, who is but a reflection of human fraility. Neither can I believe that the individual survives the death of his body, although feeble souls harbor such thoughts through fear or ridiculous egotism."
~Dr. Albert Einstein~

"The day will come, when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the Supreme Being as His Father, in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva, in the brain of Jupiter"
~Thomas Jefferson~


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## hobelim (Sep 9, 2016)

Campbell said:


> I'm doing just fine Thanks. I live in a brick basement rancher on 1 1/2 acres of zoysia grass with 220 ft. of lake frontage. I have a built in irrigation system which is supplied from the lake. I have a new dock, new pontoon boat and two 2014 cars. I've been retired with a comfortable pension for over twenty years. See.....now you won't have to worry about me any longer.



Wow, you really live in a brick basement rancher and have 1 1/2 acres of zoysia grass? LOL. Seriously? Your only measure of worth at 80 something years old  are the material possessions that you won't have in only a few years? Awesome.

And you think I am worried about you?  Because you are wasting your twilight years deriding fairy tales for children that you have never been able to comprehend? LOL..How does it affect me if you remain a jerk for the rest of your days? Truth be known, if you did, I wouldn't give a rats ass. Why should I worry about you? You have it made in the shade, right? And even when they take your license away you can polish the fenders of those two 2014 cars sitting in your driveway, and you will always have a lot of lawn to mow.




If you are really that determined to remain blind, do yourself a favor and stick with diddling around the garden. thinking isn't your strong suit.  You can't win with a losing hand, and you are at risk of losing everything that you thought you had,.... and I'm not talking about material possessions.


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## Campbell (Sep 9, 2016)

hobelim said:


> Campbell said:
> 
> 
> > I'm doing just fine Thanks. I live in a brick basement rancher on 1 1/2 acres of zoysia grass with 220 ft. of lake frontage. I have a built in irrigation system which is supplied from the lake. I have a new dock, new pontoon boat and two 2014 cars. I've been retired with a comfortable pension for over twenty years. See.....now you won't have to worry about me any longer.
> ...



I have my hand on your remedy.....JERK It.

"There is nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so"


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## hobelim (Sep 9, 2016)

Campbell said:


> hobelim said:
> 
> 
> > Campbell said:
> ...




Classy..

Thanks for helping me to show the wisdom of God in giving the command to refrain from the vile and contaminating flesh of unclean creatures that do not ruminate and for so perfectly demonstrating the terrifying and disturbing consequences for failing to stand guard over the purity of your own mind.


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## Mickiel (Sep 9, 2016)

As much as I dislike Christians ,I would not even put them in their hell; its too evil of a place.


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## Campbell (Sep 9, 2016)

hobelim said:


> Campbell said:
> 
> 
> > hobelim said:
> ...



Whatever in the world that means


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## hobelim (Sep 9, 2016)

Campbell said:


> hobelim said:
> 
> 
> > Campbell said:
> ...




Seriously?  Damn.

And some people don't believe in Gehenna, the realm of the dead. 

Imagine that!


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## Campbell (Sep 9, 2016)

hobelim said:


> Campbell said:
> 
> 
> > hobelim said:
> ...



We suspected you would know all about it. Reminds me of a preacher on Sunday morning. He selects a verse from the bible, memorizes it then pontificates for 45 minutes over something he has a few seconds of verbiage to cover. Makes him look like a real champion even though he had all week to prepare it.


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## hobelim (Sep 10, 2016)

Campbell said:


> We suspected you would know all about it.




How many of you are there?


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## Campbell (Sep 10, 2016)

hobelim said:


> Campbell said:
> 
> 
> > We suspected you would know all about it.
> ...



Wait a minute.....I'll poll the delegation!


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## Mickiel (Sep 10, 2016)

Why would a God need a hell? Why would a God make an eternal monument out of sin?


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## hobelim (Sep 10, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> Why would a God need a hell? Why would a God make an eternal monument out of sin?




You must be hard of reading.

God doesn't need a hell, apparently humans do. Reality exists as it is. When a person adopts irrational beliefs that contradict reality then they are bound to suffer day and night and are bound by those beliefs to say and do stupid things that injure themselves and the ones they love. When they pray to an imaginary being they never get an answer so to win the favor of whatever imaginary being they have created in their mind they become even more irrational do even more stupid things and on and on,  their mental health slowly disintegrating into nothingness. Reality to these unfortunate souls is just like a consuming fire that will never go out.





Hell, Gehenna,  is a metaphorical allusion to this smoldering rot and stench of decaying minds emanating from those who have made their home in this alternative reality feasting on mountains of superstitious and irrational garbage like every foul and loathsome beast and bird ends up in the garbage pit, believing it is a great blessing from God.

BTW, Hell is not restricted to only the religious who have either made great errors in their speculations or have been misled into its captivity. Campbell is a perfect example of an unbeliever whose self created prison of ignorance is not any less of a hell than the prisons of ignorance that believers have created for themselves.


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## vasuderatorrent (Sep 10, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> I have asked myself why a God would need a hell, ( and by hell I mean the Christian version of it). I mean here this great being of life and love , is said to have created a place of eternal misery? And something is just not right with that, because it makes no sense at all. But a lot of things in religion make no sense, but religion rains on humanity, getting all of our consciousness wet in one manner or another.
> 
> My view of God, and I don't know God, have never seen him or heard his voice; is a view that I know is already distorted by many things; but I view him as merciful, loving, kind, forgiving, longsuffering, all the things that this Christian hell is not. So I don't think this hell is God's creation, I think the Christians created it. I think this eternal hell punishing is what Christians would do with unbelievers, not God. I think its moreso what the Christians want.
> 
> Why would God make an eternal monument out of evil? For what? Why would such a being of great power of change, co-exist with misery forever? Why? I can't see it. I think something is seriously wrong with this myopic view of hell! The powers that exist which can seduce the consciousness of humanity into believing nonsense, is simply stunning.



I have read the Bible from cover to cover twice.  Hell didn't seem to be a major focus.  Some of the references to hell were very ambiguous.  I think the modern Christian view of hell is heavily influenced by a book called, "Dante's Inferno" rather than the Bible.  I'm not totally convinced that hell is a Judeo-Christian concept.  I have my doubts.


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## vasuderatorrent (Sep 10, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> My view of God, and I don't know God, ................  but I view him as merciful, loving, kind, forgiving, longsuffering,



I believe the view that this view of God is common, Biblically inaccurate and philosophically harmful.  The Judeo-Christian God is an analogy of powerful people in real life. The way the Bible teaches us to deal with God is the exact way we should deal with powerful people in real life.  Having a false view of God makes Christians ill equipped to interact with their superiors.  The God of the Bible has the same characteristics of arrogant jerks that always win. Yahweh chose Jacob the liar and David the murderer as His greatest proteges.  Bosses in real life promote the undeserving jerks.  Kissing God's butt is a very valuable skill to have.  It teaches you to kiss "God's" butt in real life.


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## Mickiel (Sep 10, 2016)

Why would God need a hell , he has a Christ.


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## Shusha (Sep 10, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> Why would God need a hell , he has a Christ.



Why would He need a Christ?


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## Mickiel (Sep 10, 2016)

Shusha said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > Why would God need a hell , he has a Christ.
> ...




In my view ,because he wanted a personal family. So he gave birth to a Son. Now that was Christ , the Word , Jesus. Now the Word turned out so good, that I think it made God want more children. So God's great mind became pregnant with humanity.


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## vasuderatorrent (Sep 10, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> Divine.Wind said:
> 
> 
> > Uncensored2008 said:
> ...



United States copyright laws extend throughout the author's life plus 70 years. After that the literary work becomes part of the public domain.  Furthermore copyright law does not protect anonymous authors. All books of the Bible were written by anonymous authors.  The Bible is totally in the public domain.  Nobody has a copyright on the Bible.


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## Mickiel (Sep 10, 2016)

vasuderatorrent said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > Divine.Wind said:
> ...




Correct . Christians have just stolen the bible in their minds; after all , the bible is the most shoplifted book in the world.


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## hobelim (Sep 11, 2016)

vasuderatorrent said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > I have asked myself why a God would need a hell, ( and by hell I mean the Christian version of it). I mean here this great being of life and love , is said to have created a place of eternal misery? And something is just not right with that, because it makes no sense at all. But a lot of things in religion make no sense, but religion rains on humanity, getting all of our consciousness wet in one manner or another.
> ...




If the promise to the living for compliance with the law is life, then that life is not physical in nature. Everyone, the good and the bad, already has life.. If the consequence for noncompliance is death, then it follows that the death is not physical in nature as well since everyone dies, even the righteous to whom life is promised. If the death consequent to setting aside the divine commands is not physical in nature then the realm of the dead, hell, is not a place where people go after they die a physical death.

Read the long list of maledictions promised by Moses for setting aside *the way* he taught to follow the law.   Deuteronomy 28:15-68

Sure sounds like hell to me.



Like Moses, Jesus didn't think that hell was a place where naughty people go after they die a physical death either.


When Jesus spoke of hell he was speaking to people who were affluent, well respected, were popular and supported by large congregations, (we are many), surrounded by all the comforts available at the time,  living relatively smooth and easy lives. He wasn't saying that they were going to hell, he said that they were already in it.

"They have their reward already",  " Let the dead bury the dead" etc.

A good question to ask oneself is what could he have possibly meant.  How could the people about whom he said, "they have their reward already", have been dead and suffering the torments of hell in the eyes of Jesus when by all outward appearances they seemed to have it all, professing a love for God and dedication to his law, seemingly striving for holiness, and living life free of the sufferings and hardships that the majority of people under their stewardship had to endure...


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## Mickiel (Sep 11, 2016)

Hell is the grave, all other teachings on it are false.

Honest Questions and Answers about Hell


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## hobelim (Sep 11, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> Hell is the grave, all other teachings on it are false.
> 
> Honest Questions and Answers about Hell




No, there is no wailing and gnashing of teeth in the grave.


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## Mickiel (Sep 11, 2016)

hobelim said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > Hell is the grave, all other teachings on it are false.
> ...




That is your effort to spread terror'; to scare people;

The Fruit of the Teaching of Hell


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## hobelim (Sep 11, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> hobelim said:
> 
> 
> > Mickiel said:
> ...





Yeah right, people living comfy lives is very very scary.


The teaching of Jesus was that they had missed the mark and gained their wealth and security through corruption, intimidation, oppression,  and outright lies, their sanctimonious pride in their assumed holiness an illusion, their self righteous indignation at the accusation that they were actors and lying frauds, a show, hence the wailing and gnashing of teeth in anger at the revelation of Jesus who exposed what was the wrong way to follow the law and what is the only right way to follow the law that leads to the promise of entry into a new eternal life in a higher realm of intelligences, living beings,  who dwell in the presence of God.


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## Mickiel (Sep 11, 2016)

hobelim said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > hobelim said:
> ...




This is not for you , your conscious is already seared ;  this is for people Christianity has not blinded;

23 Minutes In Hell


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## hobelim (Sep 11, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> hobelim said:
> 
> 
> > Mickiel said:
> ...




Sheesh. You have responded to what I posted so I assume that you read it.

Knowing that I find it interesting that you seem to think that I believe in some obvious fraud.

When what a person is talking about goes way over your head, you might want to consider the possibility that the person talking to you isn't speaking crazy talk in some mysterious language, the defect in comprehension is most likely within you and you could be a person living in the very hell that you do not believe in.

How nutty is that?

The fact that there is a hell does not prove that God is a meanie, it proves that God is merciful for not poofing us numbskulls out of existence immediately, giving people, the rich and the poor, the good and the bad, believers and unbelievers alike,  an opportunity for their entire lives to come to their senses and take part in the ascension of the species.


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## Mickiel (Sep 11, 2016)

hobelim said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > hobelim said:
> ...




There is no hell .The concept of eternal hell punishing is insane.


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## rdean (Sep 11, 2016)

Hell is the place the extreme religious go for messing up the world in God's name.


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## Mickiel (Sep 11, 2016)

rdean said:


> Hell is the place the extreme religious go for messing up the world in God's name.




There is no such place as hell ; the grave is just dirt for dead bodies.


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## rdean (Sep 11, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> rdean said:
> 
> 
> > Hell is the place the extreme religious go for messing up the world in God's name.
> ...


Or that.


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## Mickiel (Sep 11, 2016)

rdean said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > rdean said:
> ...




Well that  is what I think  the bible means by "Hell", simply the grave. The Old Testament mentions hell 31 times, each of those times its the Hebrew word " Sheol", which means the grave.  The New Testament mentions hell only 23 times; 12of those times its " Gehanna" ,or the Valley of Hinnon out side of Jerusalem; 10 times it means Hades , or again  the grave . Only 1 time, in 2Pet. 2:4 it refers to  some kind of "Place", and that only for demons. Religion has totally perverted  the biblical meaning of hell. Because religion loves perversion that punishes people.


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## hobelim (Sep 12, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> hobelim said:
> 
> 
> > Mickiel said:
> ...




The concept of eternal punishment as taught by the churches is insane, yes,  but that doesn't mean that hell as expressed by Jesus has no real meaning or doesn't allude to an actual state of lack and confusion, suffering and pain, fear and anxiety,  that leads to insanity  caused by adopting false teaching and irrational beliefs that are refuted by actual reality,  every day and every night,  like a consuming fire.

Try to look at it this way.

The only life that is certain is the life that you have now. If eternal life is possible, now is the only time possible to aspire to it, while living.. No one can do anything from the grave.

If physical death is permanent, then that opportunity for eternal life, attaining permanent existence and life in the kingdom of God, *while on earth*, ends at death permanently.



Another way to look at it would be this. If a person adopts the addled teaching and practices of unclean creatures who do not think rationally that teaching will defile and contaminate the mind and they will degenerate into a creature that cannot think rationally and they will say and do stupid things that injure and cause suffering to themselves and the people they love. Hell is a place of captivity, a place of darkness, confusion, and torment where people end up trapped in their mind as a direct result from feasting on garbage.



To say that there is no hell is to say that there are no confused people out there. Ridiculous, right?



Only by purifying and cleansing the mind will the suffering caused by every false teaching come to an end.

One can only do this while they are alive by exerting a force of will, a right guaranteed by the Divine, and making deliberate and conscious use of life.




















.


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## Mickiel (Sep 12, 2016)

Hell is  the grave ,a dead unconscious  body covered by dirt ; period!


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## Mickiel (Sep 12, 2016)

If you really think about it ,why would God need Christianity?

For what?


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## Mickiel (Sep 12, 2016)

Explain to yourself why a human would have to live in hell then die and go to a worse hell?


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## Mickiel (Sep 13, 2016)

God does not need hell , but the Christians do;  without it their religion is proven a lie.


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## irosie91 (Sep 13, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> God does not need hell , but the Christians do;  without it their religion is proven a lie.



why would Obama NEED a Chicago?


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## Mickiel (Sep 14, 2016)

Is hell eternal , or will God's plan fail?

Is Hell Eternal? Or Will God's Plan Fail? by Charles Pridgeon


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## Mickiel (Sep 15, 2016)

The Power of the Fear of Hell


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## Mudda (Sep 15, 2016)

HELL IS FOR LOSERS, STOP THINKING ABOUT IT.


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## Mickiel (Sep 15, 2016)

Mudda said:


> HELL IS FOR LOSERS, STOP THINKING ABOUT IT.




Never, I will never give up this message , not while Christians are alive in the consciousness of humanity!


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## GISMYS_8 (Sep 16, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> I have asked myself why a God would need a hell, ( and by hell I mean the Christian version of it). I mean here this great being of life and love , is said to have created a place of eternal misery? And something is just not right with that, because it makes no sense at all. But a lot of things in religion make no sense, but religion rains on humanity, getting all of our consciousness wet in one manner or another.
> 
> My view of God, and I don't know God, have never seen him or heard his voice; is a view that I know is already distorted by many things; but I view him as merciful, loving, kind, forgiving, longsuffering, all the things that this Christian hell is not. So I don't think this hell is God's creation, I think the Christians created it. I think this eternal hell punishing is what Christians would do with unbelievers, not God. I think its moreso what the Christians want.
> 
> Why would God make an eternal monument out of evil? For what? Why would such a being of great power of change, co-exist with misery forever? Why? I can't see it. I think something is seriously wrong with this myopic view of hell! The powers that exist which can seduce the consciousness of humanity into believing nonsense, is simply stunning.



Hell was created for satan and all evil will be there for eternity.


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## Mudda (Sep 18, 2016)

GISMYS_8 said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > I have asked myself why a God would need a hell, ( and by hell I mean the Christian version of it). I mean here this great being of life and love , is said to have created a place of eternal misery? And something is just not right with that, because it makes no sense at all. But a lot of things in religion make no sense, but religion rains on humanity, getting all of our consciousness wet in one manner or another.
> ...


So there's no evil in Al-Qaeda? Huh?


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## Mudda (Sep 18, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> Mudda said:
> 
> 
> > HELL IS FOR LOSERS, STOP THINKING ABOUT IT.
> ...


GOD IS FOR LOSERS, STOP DAYDREAMING ABOUT IT!


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## Mickiel (Sep 18, 2016)

Mudda said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
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> > Mudda said:
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Never!


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## Mickiel (Sep 19, 2016)

You can't run from the hell monger message , because satan , the prince of the power of the air , Eph. 2:2 , is using Christianity to broadcast it all over the world!


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## hobelim (Sep 19, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> Explain to yourself why a human would have to live in hell then die and go to a worse hell?




Why would anyone spend their entire lives perjuring themselves in the name of a God from whom they have never seen or heard a single word in their entire lives? Why would anyone spend their entire life seeking spiritual life from a lifeless cracker that can neither see , hear, speak or walk?

If God exists do you suppose he is going to tell them, "well done!"? He's just going to overlook the fact that they also actively made life miserable for anyone who ever had the stones to openly reject their professed devotion to lunacy? According to you, every scumbag that ever existed is going to be welcomed into the kingdom of Heaven to live forever? I don't think so.


If a person does absolutely nothing to prepare for themselves a place in the world to come while they have life they are bound to find no place to be when they have died..

No one can repent from the grave.


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## Mickiel (Sep 20, 2016)

hobelim said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > Explain to yourself why a human would have to live in hell then die and go to a worse hell?
> ...




I am curious , What do you mean by " A lifeless cracker", are even you suggesting Jesus was white?


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## hobelim (Sep 20, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> hobelim said:
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> > Mickiel said:
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No. It was a reference to the eucharist, a lifeless cracker made by human hands, that people worship and eat hoping to receive eternal life..

Nutty isn't it? Its like picking up a block of wood,  calling it mommy,  then getting down on your knees and begging it for favors and presents.

Can you think of anything more degrading other than paying some bastard to fuck up your mind and life for this privilege.

use your imagination in a rational way. If you did such a thing wouldn't your state of mind match perfectly the figurative descriptions of hell?


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## Mickiel (Sep 20, 2016)

hobelim said:


> Mickiel said:
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I am curious , in your mind does a think like " cursing"  some how give your words more power and meaning?


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## hobelim (Sep 20, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> hobelim said:
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lol...I didn't realize that you had delicate ears...

There are a million way to say FU.

Which way would you prefer?


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## Mickiel (Sep 20, 2016)

hobelim said:


> Mickiel said:
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I hold no need to say it ,  just wondering why you favor it so much?

Is it possible for you to speak without such language?


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## hobelim (Sep 20, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> hobelim said:
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You hold no need to say what? What do you think that I favor so much?

What other language would you like for me to speak in?

What the hell are you trying to avoid? lol...


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## Mickiel (Sep 20, 2016)

hobelim said:


> Mickiel said:
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The cursing ;  can you converse without cursing?


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## hobelim (Sep 20, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> hobelim said:
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It depends. You would have to provide a detailed list of words and expressions that you find shocking or offensive for me to examine before I could answer that, and then you would have to avoid being a jerk.

what are the odds of that?



There, not one single curse word that I know of. 

Feel any better?


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## Mickiel (Sep 21, 2016)

hobelim said:


> Mickiel said:
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> > hobelim said:
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Yes  , a bit better. Interesting that you use an insult to give your example. Its like you must tear at a person ;  like a cat? Always lashing out in some manner. Like a predator.


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## hobelim (Sep 22, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> hobelim said:
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You are on a very strange mission to contradict thousands of years of teaching about the reality of hell simply because you have failed to comprehend the metaphor, and even after I agreed with you that what the churches teach about an eternal afterlife place of torment isn't accurate and then explained to you what is you continue to spread lies.

You are every bit as phony and incapable of honest discussion as the people that you have been obsessively deriding.

Now I'm curious. Whats really bothering you?

Have you done something that you feel guilty about that others have said will land you in hell so you are spending day and night desperately trying to convince yourself that it doesn't exist?

To me,  that in itself matches perfectly the detailed descriptions of hell.

You want to be healed and assured a place in heaven?

Purify your mind and be refined.  Get out of your death bed,  stand up,  and walk like a man.


I assure you that you will believe in hell in the very day that you get out of it


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## Mickiel (Sep 22, 2016)

hobelim said:


> Mickiel said:
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Well if you think I am phony , I understand your desire to not have speaks with me.

Peace on your journey ,  Mickiel.


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## hobelim (Sep 22, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> hobelim said:
> 
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> > Mickiel said:
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lol....Not so fast sparkie.

Again, you are wrong, I am enjoying this discussion. and there really is no hole in the ground or crevice in the rocks for you to hide in where I can't find you.

I'm still curious as to what you have done that has hobbled you with such guilt...

If you are not a phony, wanna share?


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## Mickiel (Sep 22, 2016)

hobelim said:


> Mickiel said:
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> > hobelim said:
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Look , I don't like being called names and being personally insulted;  over and over  again by someone who does it habitually. But I don't think you realize this , or really care. Your going to talk like you do for life. I hold no interest in being continually abused. And I NEVER insult your personage or curse at you ;  so I don't ask what I don't give.

 As I have stated , peace on your journey.


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## hobelim (Sep 23, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> hobelim said:
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lol....

If you don't want to feel insulted don't make ridiculous claim about things of which you know nothing on a public message board.

Someone is bound to point it out.


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## Mickiel (Sep 23, 2016)

hobelim said:


> Mickiel said:
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I don't mind debate , discussion or disagreement  ,  I just grow tired of people constantly cursing at me; its distasteful and irritating. And I think ignorant. No use at all. I don't like it.


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## Mickiel (Sep 24, 2016)

I don't like this religious  notion of humans being put in some insane status of eternal stupidity  for sinning 70 years or less as a human. The punishment does not fit the crime; but in the insane mind of religious humanity , its made to fit.  Christ did not suffer on that cross or tree,  only for humanity to be made to suffer in some kind of pain pit.

God will punish ,yes ; but his punishment always leads to healing  and the beginning of change. The religious people of the world do not know God!

Nobody knows him!

Job 36:26 " Behold God is Great ,  and we know him not!"

 These Christians are running around here mouthing out that they know God and God speaks to them  and they have his spirit; they are wells without water ,not really knowing what they are doing.

They don't know a thing about God.


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## hobelim (Sep 24, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> hobelim said:
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> > Mickiel said:
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I don't like it when people claim that they are constantly being cursed at to avoid discussing different views about topics they brought up.

What then?


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## Mickiel (Sep 24, 2016)

hobelim said:


> Mickiel said:
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I have a point I will go to with people who have a disrespectful way of communicating ;  when it crosses that line , I have grown tired of it, and I then no longer hold an interest in being spit on with useless terminology. I suffer long with people, but once I am done with them ,I am done ;  especially when they offer no apology for their offense.

Welcome to thread ,but your style of communicating no longer interest me ;  I have seen it before; and it will tear and rip at people without remorse.


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## hobelim (Sep 24, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> hobelim said:
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You think I should be nice to people who are actively and openly dedicated to deceiving others ?

They screw up minds and lives perpetuating lies that have caused unspeakable suffering for billions of people for thousands of years, I called them bastards, clearly show what is wrong and what is right,  and you think that I should apologize for something?

lol... well, excuuuse me for living.

And you, you just want to rant about hell unchallenged?

Are you trying to become a preacher?


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## Mickiel (Sep 24, 2016)

hobelim said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > hobelim said:
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I am no preacher; but I picked up a habit in the streets of Detroit; I live here now ,and have most of my life : I just don't let jokers rant at me in just any kind of way. When they go too far with me , I let them know.

I'm telling you, your talking to me in the wrong kind of way. So I have to just ignore you ; because you cannot see yourself.

I am done with you ; this is my last words to you ; peace on your journey.


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## hobelim (Sep 24, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> hobelim said:
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> > Mickiel said:
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I see, you are striving to become every bit as deceitful and pig headed as the people you condemn for being pig headed and deceitful.

Mazel tov!


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## Mickiel (Sep 25, 2016)

Why would God need a hell, when he can change human nature , forgive  their sin ,  and give them  a new  life free?


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## Mickiel (Sep 26, 2016)

Again and again , this is ALL our salvation ; 1Tim. 2:3-4 " For this is good and acceptable to God our Savior, ( remember Christianity does NOT accept this that God has accepted) , Who will have ALL humans to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth."

God does not need a hell ,Christianity does.


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## Mickiel (Sep 27, 2016)

Hey , why would a God need a hell?   For what?

God does not think like religious people do.


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## Mickiel (Sep 28, 2016)

God loves us with all his heart ; he can't help himself , he greatly loves humanity. Why would he say to a human , " To hell with you!"

Your listening too much to Christianity.


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## Mickiel (Sep 29, 2016)

Would you , with your own mind , create a hell for people?


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## Mickiel (Sep 30, 2016)

Your viewing a conversation between God and Jesus , you actually believe , with that mind of yours , that they would agree to create place like the Christian hell?


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## Mickiel (Oct 1, 2016)

Would you need a hell if you could save your family?

What , you think God cannot save his family?


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## Mickiel (Oct 2, 2016)

Ask a Christian why they need hell and see what they suggest?


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## Mickiel (Oct 3, 2016)

Christianity wants to deport people to hell , because their religion can't help them in this life.


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## Mickiel (Oct 3, 2016)

Why do Christians need a hell ;; because their religion really needs one.


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## Mickiel (Oct 4, 2016)

Why  do Christians need a hell ? They need somewhere to dump all the humans they are condemning.


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## Mickiel (Oct 5, 2016)

Why do Christians need a hell ? Because their gospel can't save everyone.


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## Avatar4321 (Oct 5, 2016)

God is just. People do evil. Thus they become unclean. Unclean things cannot enter into the presence of God.

So you have two options. You either become clean with the atonement which God provided. Or you don't, so you remain unclean and are held accountable for the evil you do in life and are thus not to enter the presence of God. So clearly there must to be a place set aside away from God for the wicked to dwell. And because God is love, a place away from Him would be the antithesis of love. Since God is the source joy, if you are in a place where there is no joy, you must logically be miserable.

Besides which, why on earth wouldn't you be miserable if you spent your entire life doing evil and were not repentant. How would it be just for say, a mass murderer, to go to a place of pure joy if they don't care to change their ways?


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## Mickiel (Oct 5, 2016)

Avatar4321 said:


> God is just. People do evil. Thus they become unclean. Unclean things cannot enter into the presence of God.
> 
> So you have two options. You either become clean with the atonement which God provided. Or you don't, so you remain unclean and are held accountable for the evil you do in life and are thus not to enter the presence of God. So clearly there must to be a place set aside away from God for the wicked to dwell. And because God is love, a place away from Him would be the antithesis of love. Since God is the source joy, if you are in a place where there is no joy, you must logically be miserable.
> 
> Besides which, why on earth wouldn't you be miserable if you spent your entire life doing evil and were not repentant. How would it be just for say, a mass murderer, to go to a place of pure joy if they don't care to change their ways?




Christians don't give the options ;  because there are no options with God. There is no choice with God ;  its his  way ;period!


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## Mickiel (Oct 6, 2016)

God is the author and finisher

The first and the last

there is no choice in those realities ; it just is .

In him we live , move and have our being ;  that is the complete cycle of life ; God is not giving choices , not asking for opinions

and he is serious about our being with him. He has not left that up to us ; that is a serious Christian deception.


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## Mickiel (Oct 7, 2016)

Christians will hold on to hell , like a child will hold on to ice cream;   they won't let it go because they like it far too much.

They have consumed it ;  and it has consumed them.


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## Mudda (Oct 7, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> Christians will hold on to hell , like a child will hold on to ice cream;   they won't let it go because they like it far too much.
> 
> *They have consumed it ;  and it has consumed them*.


The ice cream?


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## Mickiel (Oct 7, 2016)

God does not need a hell, just like he does not need Christians.


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## Mudda (Oct 7, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> God does not need a hell, just like he does not need Christians.


Then why did god create hell? Boredom? Tired of Missionary sex?


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## kreed (Oct 7, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> I have asked myself why a God would need a hell, ( and by hell I mean the Christian version of it). I mean here this great being of life and love , is said to have created a place of eternal misery? And something is just not right with that, because it makes no sense at all. But a lot of things in religion make no sense, but religion rains on humanity, getting all of our consciousness wet in one manner or another.
> 
> My view of God, and I don't know God, have never seen him or heard his voice; is a view that I know is already distorted by many things; but I view him as merciful, loving, kind, forgiving, longsuffering, all the things that this Christian hell is not. So I don't think this hell is God's creation, I think the Christians created it. I think this eternal hell punishing is what Christians would do with unbelievers, not God. I think its moreso what the Christians want.
> 
> Why would God make an eternal monument out of evil? For what? Why would such a being of great power of change, co-exist with misery forever? Why? I can't see it. I think something is seriously wrong with this myopic view of hell! The powers that exist which can seduce the consciousness of humanity into believing nonsense, is simply stunning.



  The answer is simple.  God would need a hell to fool all the suckers into thinking he was something other than a devil.  If there is more that you want to know, I have an ebook to suggest to you.  Just enter into your browser, "Our Holy Hell: The causes, The solutions."


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## Mickiel (Oct 7, 2016)

kreed said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > I have asked myself why a God would need a hell, ( and by hell I mean the Christian version of it). I mean here this great being of life and love , is said to have created a place of eternal misery? And something is just not right with that, because it makes no sense at all. But a lot of things in religion make no sense, but religion rains on humanity, getting all of our consciousness wet in one manner or another.
> ...




I am not interested.


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## kreed (Oct 7, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> kreed said:
> 
> 
> > Mickiel said:
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 Then why are you even talking about this sort of thing.


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## Mickiel (Oct 8, 2016)

kreed said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > kreed said:
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I hold no interest in bible bashing books.


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## Mickiel (Oct 9, 2016)

I guess I just like the bible , but I like many other books. And I disagree so much with hell even being in the bible ;

How many times is hell mentioned in the Bible?


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## Mickiel (Oct 10, 2016)

Hell is a Christian creation;  which is based on Christian desire;  they want people to go to that place.


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## Votto (Oct 11, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> I have asked myself why a God would need a hell, ( and by hell I mean the Christian version of it). I mean here this great being of life and love , is said to have created a place of eternal misery? And something is just not right with that, because it makes no sense at all. But a lot of things in religion make no sense, but religion rains on humanity, getting all of our consciousness wet in one manner or another.
> 
> My view of God, and I don't know God, have never seen him or heard his voice; is a view that I know is already distorted by many things; but I view him as merciful, loving, kind, forgiving, longsuffering, all the things that this Christian hell is not. So I don't think this hell is God's creation, I think the Christians created it. I think this eternal hell punishing is what Christians would do with unbelievers, not God. I think its moreso what the Christians want.
> 
> Why would God make an eternal monument out of evil? For what? Why would such a being of great power of change, co-exist with misery forever? Why? I can't see it. I think something is seriously wrong with this myopic view of hell! The powers that exist which can seduce the consciousness of humanity into believing nonsense, is simply stunning.



The more wickedness I see in the world that goes unpunished with impunity, the more I realize the need for a hell.


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## hobelim (Oct 11, 2016)

Votto said:


> The more wickedness I see in the world that goes unpunished with impunity, the more I realize the need for a hell.




You don't understand the root cause for what you are seeing, consequently you do not know what you are talking about.

Given the fact that you think that anyone ever gets away with anything you might as well come right out with it and say that you are an atheist. You see a need for hell? You think someone should burn in flames for an eternity for doing what is evil? You might as well set yourself on fire right now and get used to it. You worship as human being as if he was a god which is a sin worthy of death according to the very book that you claim is the word of God. You mislead others to do the same which makes you twice as fit for hell as anyone that you would love to burn.

Where is your faith? How is it that you do not see the hand of God at work every day wherever you look, the law of God in effect and in full force, people receiving their reward in the very day they do either what is good or what is evil?.

Why do you think that you are so confused? Why do you think that when you look out on the world you do not see evidence of God, no justice, no peace?

Just some accidental misfortune? A bad roll of the dice? And another and another hoping that God will show up one day if you only had enough faith to keep on rolling until you were dead? But then you'll have lots of presents from God for being such an obedient and diligent little boy. Is that what keeps you going like a donkey going after a carrot that he will never get?

Jesus found peace and saw the hand of God at work in the world in which he lived. Whats your excuse for seeing nothing and finding none in this relatively cushy space in time?

How many vats of communion wine have you drank over the decades, how many tons of matzos have you worshipped and eaten and still no peace? Still no signs of God?

How many more decades will it take before it dawns on you that you have been deceived?

Why spend money and get what is not bread? Why give away the fruit of your labor and go unsatisfied?


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## Votto (Oct 12, 2016)

hobelim said:


> Votto said:
> 
> 
> > The more wickedness I see in the world that goes unpunished with impunity, the more I realize the need for a hell.
> ...



I reckon I've seen enough evil in the world, and tried to reason with it.

Here is my conclusion.  The futility of arguing with crazy mind/soul is you can't fix crazy.

They have to go somewhere.

Jesus was the answer, and they nailed him to a cross.


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## hobelim (Oct 12, 2016)

Votto said:


> Here is my conclusion. The futility of arguing with crazy mind/soul is you can't fix crazy.




When you argue, what makes you so sure that the other person you are arguing with is the crazy one and you are not?

Have you ever sought proof or confirmation that what you profess to believe is the truth?


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## Votto (Oct 12, 2016)

hobelim said:


> Votto said:
> 
> 
> > Here is my conclusion. The futility of arguing with crazy mind/soul is you can't fix crazy.
> ...



What proof do I need to show that lying, murdering, stealing, etc., is "bad"?

Your average politician probably thinks they are virtues.


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## social philosopher (Oct 12, 2016)

The concept of an underworld, or a hell, is derived from the almost literal hell mankind suffered in the African mines by the Annunuki.


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## hobelim (Oct 12, 2016)

Votto said:


> hobelim said:
> 
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> > Votto said:
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Let me ask you a few  questions,

When you watch a PBS documentary about the lives of the wild animals in the Serengeti do you see evil everywhere with murdering, stealing, etc., through any number of deceptive means?  Does it make you doubt the existence of God or see a need for any of the animals involved in the struggle between life and death in the wilderness to be tortured forever in sulfurous flames?

Second, If your perception of what is good and bad among people is based on a perverted interpretation of the commands to not murder or steal, fornicate, eat the flesh of swine,  etc., then isn't it this perversion in your mind  that would make you see evil everywhere?

Wouldn't that perversion cause you to be so unaware about what is actually happening on earth that you could be a murderer without ever lifting a finger against anybody and never even know it?

For instance if the consequence for Idolatry is death and you believed that it was a religious duty to persuade other people to set aside the divine command and worship a human being as if he was a god then you would be a murderer, even a serial murderer,  in the eyes of God even if you didn't have a violent bone in your body and would never even swat at a fly.


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## SoCalSmurf (Oct 12, 2016)

Just as we have prisons for criminals, hell is for the sinner who does not believe in the blood of Christ.


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## hobelim (Oct 12, 2016)

SoCalSmurf said:


> Just as we have prisons for criminals, hell is for the sinner who does not believe in the blood of Christ.



Either that or hell is for the believer who has failed to discern the body and eats and drinks judgment upon himself.


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## Votto (Oct 12, 2016)

hobelim said:


> Votto said:
> 
> 
> > hobelim said:
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When I look at the world, the animal kingdom included, I see a fallen world.  We all see that something is amiss, even though we may not be able to put our finger on what is exactly amiss.

Even though we all have varying degrees of morality, the general consensus is the Golden Rule spoken of by Christ, which is to do unto others as you would have them do to you.

I find it odd that you said this, "perception of what is good and bad among people is based on a perverted interpretation of the commands to not murder or steal......"  Are you implying that doing these things is not considered "bad"?

As for perverting morality, the best way that I've seen to do it is to violate the Golden Rule by dehumanizing someone.  The Jew becomes vermin, the non-Muslim becomes an infidel, the black becomes half ape, the unborn baby becomes a fetus, etc., etc.  It is only when we dehumanize people that we are free to abuse them it seems.


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## hobelim (Oct 12, 2016)

Votto said:


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I see.

Let me ask you this, If you saw the behavior of a person that fits perfectly the image of a vulture and you called them a vulture, would it be you dehumanizing them by calling them a vulture or would they have dehumanized themselves by feasting on the dead and dying?


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## Votto (Oct 12, 2016)

hobelim said:


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Do people dehumanize themselves for their evil behavior?  

Good question.  I think from our own personal perspectives it makes them seem more like animals than human beings.  However, being a person of faith I'm always reminded that human beings are made in the image of God and should, therefore, be treated with respect.  Atheists tend to view humanity more as glorified animals.  Considering this, I think those of faith are more likely to respect human life than their counterparts.


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## hobelim (Oct 12, 2016)

Votto said:


> When I look at the world, the animal kingdom included, I see a fallen world.



That is so sad! I see everything under the sun in perfect order.



Votto said:


> We all see that something is amiss, even though we may not be able to put our finger on what is exactly amiss.



We?   Ahem... I am not a part of your we.

Why not try to not say and do stupid things and see if things don't clear up instantly...


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## Votto (Oct 12, 2016)

hobelim said:


> Votto said:
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> > When I look at the world, the animal kingdom included, I see a fallen world.
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So your perfect world is full of pain and death.

Nice.

I suppose that is why you don't believe in a hell, it is because you can't even see the hell that exists on earth.


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## hobelim (Oct 12, 2016)

Votto said:


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No one who teaches another to pray to a cracker for spiritual life has no respect for any form of life, including their own.


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## Votto (Oct 12, 2016)

hobelim said:


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Jesus was a cracker?


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## hobelim (Oct 12, 2016)

Votto said:


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Well no, my world is full of life, in fact it is teeming with life. Death is simply a natural part of the cycle of life.

Pssst!

You may not realize this if you have been living in a fantasy world for too long but this is the Earth.


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## hobelim (Oct 12, 2016)

Votto said:


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lol.....

Who said anything about Jesus?.


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## Mickiel (Oct 13, 2016)

God does not listen to Christians;  why would God listen to the creators of hell?


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## SoCalSmurf (Oct 13, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> God does not listen to Christians;  why would God listen to the creators of hell?


I once got Hep C by drinking from the cup of someone who had it with bleeding gums. I contracted jaundice (yellowing of skin)...a symptom of Hep C. I had two diagnostic tests run. Both showing me positive for it. *I cried out to Jesus.* Today, there is no sign of my ever even having it.

Mark 16:18. They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.


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## Mudda (Oct 13, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> God does not listen to Christians;  why would God listen to the creators of hell?


God created everything, didn't he?


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## Mickiel (Oct 13, 2016)

Mudda said:


> Mickiel said:
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> > God does not listen to Christians;  why would God listen to the creators of hell?
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Welcome to thread ,see how it grows.


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## Mudda (Oct 14, 2016)

Mickiel said:


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What kind of fucking lame answer is that? So did god create everything in the universe or not?


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## Mickiel (Oct 14, 2016)

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I refuse to answer foul mouthed questions. I hold no interest in that garbage.


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## Mudda (Oct 14, 2016)

Mickiel said:


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In other words, you have nothing. Got it.


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## Mickiel (Oct 14, 2016)

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Right ,I got nothing for your foul language. Go talk to someone who talks like you do.


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## Mudda (Oct 14, 2016)

Mickiel said:


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So did god make everything in the universe or not?


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## Mickiel (Oct 14, 2016)

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I don't like your language , so I don't like talking with you.


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## Mudda (Oct 14, 2016)

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That was a straightforward question and I dropped the heathen talk. I guess you're stumped.


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## Mickiel (Oct 14, 2016)

Mudda said:


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No not stumped ,just tired of your ugly word usage.


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## RWNJ (Oct 14, 2016)

TNHarley said:


> saveliberty said:
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> > Because he loved enough to give the gift of freewill.  He didn't want robots following a scripted life.  .
> ...


Actions have consequences. Deal with it. Also, think about it this way. When someone rejects God, you obviously have no idea how bad such an act is. Someone is saying to their Creator, they they don't need Him. That will live their life how THEY want to. Not only that. they deserve death for their sins. But God sent His only Son to pay the price of that sin. Think about that. The Creator of the universe suffered one of the most horrible executions ever created. And he did it because he loves us. It's a free gift. All you have to do is repent and accept it. How hard is that? And God never sends anyone to Hell. They send themselves. And it's all because of their sinful pride.


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## TNHarley (Oct 14, 2016)

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 I just don't believe in it.


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## Mickiel (Oct 14, 2016)

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God is not a Christian , a Christian would send anyone to their hell for a thousand reasons. God is not insane ;  he would be insane to send a human to some hell just because they reject him.

Christianity would do it because they are insane. Ruthless and unmerciful.


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## RWNJ (Oct 14, 2016)

Mickiel said:


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The Bible explains all of this. You might try reading it. Even if you don't believe in God, the logic is consistent.


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## Mickiel (Oct 14, 2016)

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Oh I believe in God, I just don't believe Christianity. Too many white people got their hands on the bible  and perverted it  . From King James to the Nicene council, hell was changed from the grave to a punishing pit.


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## RWNJ (Oct 14, 2016)

Mickiel said:


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Then why does the Bible we have today match the Scriptures from from before the first century AD? Nothing was changed. Research that. You might learn something. Gods word is unchanging.


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## Mickiel (Oct 14, 2016)

RWNJ said:


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You don't know what your talking about, many bibles have changed, because they found out the deceptions ;

How many times is hell mentioned in the Bible?


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## RWNJ (Oct 14, 2016)

Mickiel said:


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I know exactly what I'm talking about. There is only one version of the Bible. You must be speaking of translations. And you are correct that some of them change things. Hell, there's even a gay Bible. That is where knowledge comes into play. We can read the original, which hasn't changed.


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## TNHarley (Oct 14, 2016)

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 There are many defended claims that King James was black.
And why would you imply King James came first? That was like 1200 years before the council. I know you don't know your history but damn lol.


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## Mickiel (Oct 14, 2016)

Hell is a Christian hoax ; notice ;

23 Minutes In Hell

Welcome to the truth.


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## Mickiel (Oct 14, 2016)

TNHarley said:


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Are there any credible sources that believe that King James of the King James Bible was a black man? - Quora


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## Mudda (Oct 14, 2016)

Mickiel said:


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So god made everything EXCEPT hell?

Got any proof?


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## RWNJ (Oct 14, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> Hell is a Christian hoax ; notice ;
> 
> 23 Minutes In Hell
> 
> Welcome to the truth.


The truth is not in you. You claim that you believe in God, yet you do not believe in His written word. You do not believe that He is capable of making sure that we receive a accurate copy of that word. You are a fraud.


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## Mudda (Oct 14, 2016)

Mickiel said:


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So what invisible superbigguy do you believe in?


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## Mudda (Oct 14, 2016)

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The bible is a fraud. #rd hand accounts of second hand stories, with the good ones about the aliens left out.


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## RWNJ (Oct 14, 2016)

Mudda said:


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Idiot. I would elaborate, but it's not worth my time.


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## Mickiel (Oct 14, 2016)

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White people are a fraud as well, they discredited even the bible.


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## Mudda (Oct 14, 2016)

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So you have nothing. Got it. And next time, just say that.


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## Mickiel (Oct 14, 2016)

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Its worth my time; welcome to thread ,see how it grows.


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## Mudda (Oct 14, 2016)

Mickiel said:


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Black people were the ones who sold you into slavery, you're all frauds.


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## Mudda (Oct 14, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> Its worth my time; *welcome to thread ,see how it grows*.


Who are you? Black Johnny Appleseed?


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## RWNJ (Oct 14, 2016)

Mudda said:


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One does not argue with an idiot. They only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience. I will not play your little game. Gods word does not need me to defend it. You can believe whatever you like, but you will answer to God for it. Believe it. Look forward to it.


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## Mickiel (Oct 14, 2016)

RWNJ said:


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Welcome to thread , notice how it grows. Also notice ;

Bible Reality Check--A Case Against Hell


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## Mudda (Oct 14, 2016)

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You have nothing but I'm the idiot. Um... no.


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## RWNJ (Oct 14, 2016)

Mudda said:


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No. I told you what the Bible says about it. You rejected it, and called me clueless. Goodbye. This conversation.


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## TNHarley (Oct 14, 2016)

Mickiel said:


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 Because of his pictures? lol Jesus was depicted white as well..
Weird how you blame the white man for trashing history then accept it when it is good for you.. try consistency 
Black moors ruled western Europe for centuries during the dark and middle ages. Even Ireland and Scotland. In fact Scotland had a cross breeding black King back in the 14th century(?). It is ENTIRELY possible.
Quora is an idiot.


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## sparky (Oct 14, 2016)

Bible translates to 'many books'  , most of which were written a good century AD , the council of Nicea edited what it wished around 300AD, because it was better biz to assimilate christians ,than feed them to lions for entertainment

Ergo , things celestial will never acquire terrestrial clarity

~S~


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## Mickiel (Oct 14, 2016)

TNHarley said:


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Its possible , but unlikely; whites would not name a bible after a black man. Not if I know white.


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## TNHarley (Oct 14, 2016)

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 They call it that IMO because if it wasn't for him, peasants would only have preachers and priests telling them what it says. He was like Demascus the second.. lol
Good gawd you are so racist..


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## Mickiel (Oct 14, 2016)

TNHarley said:


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I admit my racism; I also admit that whites would never allow a black man to be the figure head of a popular biblical translation.

No white way!


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## TNHarley (Oct 14, 2016)

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 Maybe that's why he is depicted as white lol


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## RWNJ (Oct 14, 2016)

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The fact that someone would play the race card in a discussion about religion speaks volumes about that person. Any discussion should be based on the Word of God.


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## Mudda (Oct 14, 2016)

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And I'm telling you that if all you have for proof is a book written generations after the events by who knows who, that at least they could have kept in the chapters about the aliens. Get it?


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## Mudda (Oct 14, 2016)

TNHarley said:


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Nobody's going to worship a black man, because then Jesus wouldn't have known who his father is, ipso facto no one would know that he's the son of god.


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## Mickiel (Oct 14, 2016)

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Well its possible ,whites have been known to change the color of biblical characters.


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## Mudda (Oct 14, 2016)

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Blacks didn't know how to write back then.


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## Mickiel (Oct 14, 2016)

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Whites have infected all religious discussions, way before I have. I refer you to my thread in Race relations; I get into many things your people have infected.


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## TNHarley (Oct 14, 2016)

Mudda said:


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 blacks invented writing...


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## RWNJ (Oct 14, 2016)

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When did they do this? Wasn't it Jews who wrote the old testament, thousands of years ago? There are writings even older than that. When did blacks invent writing?


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## Mickiel (Oct 14, 2016)

It was most likely Iragis who created writing , in early Mesopotamia. Or Iranians.


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## RWNJ (Oct 14, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> It was most likely Iragis who created writing , in early Mesopotamia. Or Iranians.


Many believe it was the Sumerians.


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## Mudda (Oct 14, 2016)

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Most blacks still don't know how to write.


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## Mudda (Oct 14, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> Whites have infected all religious discussions, way before I have. I refer you to my thread in Race relations; I get into many things your people have infected.


What made you hate white people so much?


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## onefour1 (Oct 15, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> There are no laws in the Kingdom of God, none are needed; there is no free will there either;only God's will.



It's not that there is no free will, but that there is a division among all according to their free will.  By virtue of the fact that some do not make it to the Kingdom of Heaven shows that there is free will.  They simply chose to go to another kingdom.  Those in the Kingdom of God make that choice and follow the law of that kingdom of their own free will.  They certainly have the right to choose and could be cast out of heaven the same as Satan.  What is not free to choose is the consequence of your choices.  This where the law of God is shown to exist.  Those who choose not to follow a celestial law are not worthy to live in the Kingdom of Heaven.  Those who choose to follow a celestial law are found worthy to live in the kingdom.  It is all based ones free choice within the confines of God's eternal laws that have their consequences (rewards and punishments).


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## Mickiel (Oct 15, 2016)

onefour1 said:


> Mickiel said:
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> > There are no laws in the Kingdom of God, none are needed; there is no free will there either;only God's will.
> ...




Free will is a myth in my understanding;

The Lake of Fire - Part 15


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## RWNJ (Oct 15, 2016)

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That's the problem. You don't understand.


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## Mickiel (Oct 15, 2016)

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I understand what I understand.


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## RWNJ (Oct 15, 2016)

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Sorry. You understand nothing about Scripture, and your antagonistic bias is clear to see. You are blinded by hate.


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## Mickiel (Oct 15, 2016)

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God did not give humans free will; in Jer. 10:23 " O Lord I know the way of man is not in himself ; its not in man who walks to direct his own path." You don't give beings who don't know their way freewill.

Show me in scripture where Jesus ever stated that he had free will.

I hate the twisted deceptions that Christians teach.


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## RWNJ (Oct 15, 2016)

Mickiel said:


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Like I said, you lack understanding.

Barnes' Notes on the Bible
At the rumour of the enemy's approach Jeremiah utters in the name of the nation a supplication appropriate to men overtaken by the divine justice.Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary23. Despairing of influencing the people, he turns to God.
way of man not in himself—(Pr 16:1; 20:24; Jas 4:13, 14). I know, O Jehovah, that the march of the Babylonian conqueror against me (Jeremiah identifying himself with his people) is not at his own discretion, but is overruled by Thee (Isa 10:5-7; compare Jer 10:19).

that walketh—when he walketh, that is, sets out in any undertaking.

direct … steps—to give a prosperous issue to (Ps 73:23).

10:17-25 The Jews who continued in their own land, felt secure. But, sooner or later, sinners will find all things as the word of God has declared, and that its threatenings are not empty terrors. Submission will support the believer under every grief allotted to him; but what can render the load of Divine vengeance easy to be borne by those who fall under it in sullen despair? Those cannot expect to prosper, who do not, by faith and prayer, take God with them in all their ways. The report of the enemy's approach was very dreadful. Yet the designs which men lay deep, and think well formed, are dashed to pieces in a moment. Events are often overruled, so as to be quite contrary to what we intended and expected. If the Lord has directed our steps into the ways of peace and righteousness, let us entreat him to enable us to walk therein. Say not, Lord, do not correct me; but, Lord, do not correct me in anger. We may bear the smart of God's rod, but we cannot bear the weight of his wrath. Those who restrain prayer, prove that they know not God; for those who know him will seek him, and seek his favour. If even severe corrections lead sinners to be convinced of wholesome truths, they will have abundant cause for gratitude. And they will then humble themselves before the Lord.

You took a verse out of context. A common failing of atheists. When you add the context, it makes sense. The verse you quoted has nothing to do with free will. Also, if you don't have free will, what do you have? Are you claiming that people are programmed robots?


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## Mickiel (Oct 15, 2016)

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In my view , predestination is preprograming.


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## RWNJ (Oct 15, 2016)

Mickiel said:


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God can, and does, intervene in human affairs. This does not preclude free will. God used Nebuchadnezzar to do His will. In the event I described, He was on his way to someplace else, when he came to a crossroad and decided to go to Israel instead. This could have been nothing more than God whispering the suggestion in his mind. There is no indication that God forced him to change course, rather God nudged him into doing something he would have eventually done anyway. It was his choice to go to Israel. God did not force him to go.


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## Mickiel (Oct 15, 2016)

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In Isaiah 45:23 God " Swears" that he will force ALL of humanity to their knees. He will force them ALL to confess to him.

Jesus claimed many times , "Father NOT my will , but your will be done"; translation , Jesus did not have freewill and he did not have a choice.

Hello?


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## onefour1 (Oct 15, 2016)

Jesus' will was to do the will of the father.  He freely chose to do his Father's will.  It was a choice he made.


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## Mickiel (Oct 15, 2016)

onefour1 said:


> Jesus' will was to do the will of the father.  He freely chose to do his Father's will.  It was a choice he made.




It was not a choice Jesus made ,he did not want to die at first. He even asked God to "Lift this cup from me", meaning he did not want to be killed. But Jesus knew he had absolutely no choice in the matter. He submitted to God's will.


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## RWNJ (Oct 15, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> onefour1 said:
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> > Jesus' will was to do the will of the father.  He freely chose to do his Father's will.  It was a choice he made.
> ...


Why do you persist in displaying your ignorance? Do you actually believe that you, an atheist, understand Scripture better than countless Biblical scholars? I assure you. You do not. You are spiritually blind, because you have rejected God. Besides, Jesus is co-equal with God. It was His choice to die for us, because he loved us. Even you.


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## Mickiel (Oct 15, 2016)

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I am not an Atheist , and you can't make me one. I have not rejected God , I reject Christianity.


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## onefour1 (Oct 15, 2016)

Yes, he submitted.  He wasn't forced but chose to follow the will of the Father because even though he knew it would be very painful and his desire was to flee from all the pain, he understood that the salvation of all mankind rested upon his shoulders.  And because he loved his Father and his fellow brethren, he chose to do the will of the Father to fulfill all righteousness.  It was Jesus' greatest test and He proved faithful.  He volunteered and was chosen before the foundation of this earth to be the Savior.

*1 Peter 1:19-20*
19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

*Abraham 3:23-28*
23 And God saw these souls that they were good, and he stood in the midst of them, and he said: These I will make my rulers; for he stood among those that were spirits, and he saw that they were good; and he said unto me: Abraham, thou art one of them; thou wast chosen before thou wast born.
24 And there stood one among them that was like unto God, and he said unto those who were with him: We will go down, for there is space there, and we will take of these materials, and we will make an earth whereon these may dwell;
25 And we will prove them herewith, to see if they will do all things whatsoever the Lord their God shall command them;
26 And they who keep their first estate shall be added upon; and they who keep not their first estate shall not have glory in the same kingdom with those who keep their first estate; and they who keep their second estate shall have glory added upon their heads for ever and ever.
27 And the Lord said: Whom shall I send? And one answered like unto the Son of Man: Here am I, send me. And another answered and said: Here am I, send me. And the Lord said: I will send the first.
28 And the second was angry, and kept not his first estate; and, at that day, many followed after him.

*Moses 4:1-3*
1 And I, the Lord God, spake unto Moses, saying: That Satan, whom thou hast commanded in the name of mine Only Begotten, is the same which was from the beginning, and he came before me, saying—Behold, here am I, send me, I will be thy son, and I will redeem all mankind, that one soul shall not be lost, and surely I will do it; wherefore give me thine honor.
2 But, behold, my Beloved Son, which was my Beloved and Chosen from the beginning, said unto me—Father, thy will be done, and the glory be thine forever.
3 Wherefore, because that Satan rebelled against me, and sought to destroy the agency of man, which I, the Lord God, had given him, and also, that I should give unto him mine own power; by the power of mine Only Begotten, I caused that he should be cast down;

Yes, it was a difficult decision for Jesus but he was a faithful son whom the Father knew would choose the right out of love for both his Father and his brothers and sisters.


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## Mickiel (Oct 16, 2016)

Jesus did not have a choice in what he did, because he knows there is no choice with his Father. There is no scripture in the bible that Jesus ever had a choice;

Hey , simply produce the scripture; lets have it!

Jesus did what he was supposed to do. In his mind , disobedience was never an option. This choice thing exist only in the mind of Christianity.


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## onefour1 (Oct 16, 2016)

Was he forced to do it against his will? No.  He chose to follow the will of the Father.  Did he have other things that he could have done? Yes.  Why didn't Jesus call down fire from heaven and burn all the murderers?  Or Maybe and earthquake or tornado, etc. etc.Obedience is not the lack of free will. If there is no free will, then why would God allow us to sin?  How can God judge anyone of us if there is no free will?  In your own words, what does it take to have free will?


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## Mickiel (Oct 16, 2016)

onefour1 said:


> Was he forced to do it against his will? No.  He chose to follow the will of the Father.  Did he have other things that he could have done? Yes.  Why didn't Jesus call down fire from heaven and burn all the murderers?  Or Maybe and earthquake or tornado, etc. etc.Obedience is not the lack of free will. If there is no free will, then why would God allow us to sin?  How can God judge anyone of us if there is no free will?  In your own words, what does it take to have free will?




Jesus did not " Choose" God's will, all he has EVER known is God's will.

Jesus way , his diet, his "Meat" , or his substance IS to do God's will, John 4:34.In John 8:28 Jesus said he " Does NOTHING of himself", meaning he does NOTHING from his own will , meaning he does NOT have free will. Jesus is not infected with the Christian teaching of freewill.


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## RWNJ (Oct 16, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> onefour1 said:
> 
> 
> > Was he forced to do it against his will? No.  He chose to follow the will of the Father.  Did he have other things that he could have done? Yes.  Why didn't Jesus call down fire from heaven and burn all the murderers?  Or Maybe and earthquake or tornado, etc. etc.Obedience is not the lack of free will. If there is no free will, then why would God allow us to sin?  How can God judge anyone of us if there is no free will?  In your own words, what does it take to have free will?
> ...


You said that you believe the Bible. Jesus said that "I and the Father are one." He also said "If you have seen Me, you have seen the Father." Scripture is clear on this. God exists as three persons, in a single Being. Jesus, as well as the Holy Spirit were there at the time of Creation. Jesus is co-equal with God. In fact, He is God. Our limited minds cannot comprehend this, but it is what Gods word teaches.

\ Jesus said he " Does NOTHING of himself"/  If you look at the context, it is clear that Jesus is referring to Judgement. This judgment claimed by Jesus is, however, engaged in, not in any spirit of self-exaltation or human arbitrariness, nor can it err, because it is merely as the executor of the Father’s will He judges.


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## Mickiel (Oct 16, 2016)

RWNJ said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > onefour1 said:
> ...




God is not a person, a person is human , God is not human, so he is not "A Person or some weird three persons." Jesus is not God , he is " A God" ,  a son of A God, but he is not the Father God.

That is Christian nonsense and deception.


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## sparky (Oct 16, 2016)

God doesn't need hell...we do....

~S~


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## TyroneSlothrop (Oct 16, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> I have asked myself why a God would need a hell,









 <-----------because of him


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## onefour1 (Oct 16, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> onefour1 said:
> 
> 
> > Was he forced to do it against his will? No.  He chose to follow the will of the Father.  Did he have other things that he could have done? Yes.  Why didn't Jesus call down fire from heaven and burn all the murderers?  Or Maybe and earthquake or tornado, etc. etc.Obedience is not the lack of free will. If there is no free will, then why would God allow us to sin?  How can God judge anyone of us if there is no free will?  In your own words, what does it take to have free will?
> ...



Jesus is the great "I AM'.  He has seen and contemplated all the sins of man since the beginning.  He has also suffered for all those sins and knows the pain and suffering and the evil of all things. 

*John 8:57-59*
57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
59 Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.


*Isaiah 53:3*
3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

*Doctrine and Covenants 88:6*
6 He that ascended up on high, as also he descended below all things, in that he comprehended all things, that he might be in all and through all things, the light of truth;

Having more light and truth and understanding than all of us he is able to succor his people.

*Hebrews 2:18*
18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.

I believe Christ is well acquainted with all the ways of darkness as well as the light.  His understanding far surpasses our understanding.  He has not only known the will of God but also the will of all God's children whether it be evil or good and Satan as well.  He has experienced the consequences of it all even though he did no sin.  Yet it was only the will of the Father that he followed.

When Jesus says that he does nothing of himself, this means that he chooses to do only the will of his Father, even at the peril of his own life.  He wants us to be the same.  He wants us to choose the will of the Father over our own will to do evil.  Why does he choose it?  Because it is the right thing to do.  It is the way to obtain the greatest degree of happiness and joy and peace in our life.  Jesus knew and understood this and he knew that he had a calling to fulfill as the messenger of salvation.  Sure his body did not want to go through with the suffering but his will to follow his Father in heaven and his love for his fellow beings was greater than his personal sufferings.  He then drank the bitter cup and finished his preparations unto the children of men.

Mickiel, in your opinion, does free will exist at all?  Are you a determinist?  In your opinion, under what conditions does free will exist if at all?


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## MaryL (Oct 16, 2016)

Funny thing about that. Maybe  God dosen't need heaven or hell, or angels or devils . Perhaps he/she is so bored with existence and takes on all lives under different guises, jumping around in time and space. because he/she has nothing better to do. So, we are basically the same entity. I haven't a clue , just passing that along.


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## Mickiel (Oct 16, 2016)

onefour1 said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > onefour1 said:
> ...




In my view , humans have "Limited will". Human history is really the unfolding of God's will, nothing outside of God's will can happen. If something happened that God did not want to happen , then that something would be more powerful than God. So a human can only do or think that which is allowed by heaven. In John 3:27 we can only receive things , or even think things , that heaven gives us.  In God we live , move and have our being ; that right there is the complete cycle of our lives. There is no free will in that. God is the author and finisher of ALL things, even our thinking consciousness. Free will does not exist under any conditions with God. God is a dictator , he is not asking what we think and our opinions. God has NEVER been like that. His rule is TOTAL!

People just really don't know God and how he is. Job 36:26 "God is great , we know him not!" Christians are just messing up the truth , because they don't know it. They mean well, but they just don't have a clue;

their not supposed to.


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## Mickiel (Oct 18, 2016)

People need hell because they got hell in their minds.


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## sparky (Oct 18, 2016)

hellifiknow....
~S~


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## Mickiel (Oct 19, 2016)

Hell is as much a part of American language as  "Food" is.


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## Mickiel (Oct 19, 2016)

Christians are not really teaching salvation , their teaching a survival of the fittest program.


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## Mudda (Oct 20, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> Christians are not really teaching salvation , their teaching a survival of the fittest program.


So you're saying that Jesus died on the cross because he wasn't fit?


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## Mickiel (Oct 20, 2016)

Listen to this ;

The Harrowing of Hell


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## Mickiel (Oct 20, 2016)

Listen to this ;

The Harrowing of Hell


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## Mickiel (Oct 20, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> Listen to this ;
> 
> The Harrowing of Hell




Be reasonable, why would God even need a hell? Why can't you see these religions are off base?  They don't know how God is.

What you teach , what you express  ,  what you " Explain" ,that is HOW you SEE God!

When you see any kind of religious hell ,  your not seeing the truth about your God.

This is the biblical hell ;

The Bible Hell

Study! READ the bible! Learn how to see God. To see real mercy  , real grace . REAL LOVE!

The Bible Hell


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## Mickiel (Oct 22, 2016)

If hell was totally removed from your mind and belief ,  do you think you still would believe in God?

Is hell a need in your belief?


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## Mickiel (Oct 23, 2016)

For your pleasure ;

DOES THE "ONCE SAVED ALWAYS SAVED" DOCTRINE BRING SECURITY TO STRUGGLING CHRISTIANS?


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## Mickiel (Oct 23, 2016)

Will you keep studying with me?

Will you think with me?

Did God Create Hell?  by Jacques Ellul


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## Mickiel (Oct 24, 2016)

Remember that Christianity and religion NEED hell. They NEED to see humans being punished , they do not want God or Christ to totally forgive everyone ;  they only want certain people who do certain things to be saved. You must qualify in their salvation. and if your not found worthy , well you have to go to a place of punishing for all of eternity.

Their need for hell is insane!


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## Mickiel (Oct 24, 2016)

Why do you just keep believing in hell ? Why are you trying to make that insanity fit?
How has the hell teaching benefited humanity?

Has the teaching of hell been beneficial to mankind?


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## Hawkins (Oct 24, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> Why do you just keep believing in hell ? Why are you trying to make that insanity fit?
> How has the hell teaching benefited humanity?
> 
> Has the teaching of hell been beneficial to mankind?



It's about whether it's a truth. What's that to do with pleasing humans?


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## Mickiel (Oct 24, 2016)

Hawkins said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > Why do you just keep believing in hell ? Why are you trying to make that insanity fit?
> ...




The Christian hell is not a truth , that hell they created is about pleasing their religion ; pacifying their lust for punishing unbelievers.


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## Mickiel (Oct 25, 2016)

Look close at Rev. 21:4, " And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes ;  and there shall BE NO MORE death , crying , sorrow or pain ; THESE THINGS WILL PASS AWAY!"

Listen ; you must listen to these scriptures and understand them . IF the Christian hell were true , then there would always be crying , sorrow and pain ; in their hell. It would never pass away! And this verse in Revelations must be removed from the bible.

The truth is God will put an END to crying , sorrow and pain ; it will be no more! God will stop the suffering for us all  ; he started it , and only he can stop it. And because God started it , you cannot be condemned or lost! Look at Isaiah  45:7 ;yes , God started it , for a reason. That reason includes your personal experiences and awareness ;  he wanted you to know what evil and sin is like. To let it touch you a bit ; so that when he touches you , you will ALWAYS know the difference between good and evil.


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## Hawkins (Oct 25, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> The Christian hell is not a truth , that hell they created is about pleasing their religion ; pacifying their lust for punishing unbelievers.



That's your assertion without any argument found. It's an assertion out of your own faith.


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## Mickiel (Oct 25, 2016)

Hawkins said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > The Christian hell is not a truth , that hell they created is about pleasing their religion ; pacifying their lust for punishing unbelievers.
> ...




I have no faith , but I can read.  Jesus taught in Matt. 24:21 ," For then shall be great tribulation such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time , no , nor shall EVER be AGAIN!" Now  , Jesus said this tribulation , which is an event to happen on earth during the last days , will be the worse thing to ever happen to humanity ;  nothing worse has happen to humanity since our conception ,  nothing worse will happen to us after this event ,( nor shall ever be!).

Hey use your common sense , your reasoning ability , your ability to read . IF the Christian hell were true ,NOTHING could be worse than it. Eternal punishing and everlasting suffering! Please! IF that were true , Jesus prophecy here is worthless and a lie! But its not a lie , its a revelation , for those who are not blinded , that the Christian teaching of everlasting punishing is false and insane.


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## Mickiel (Oct 25, 2016)

Christianity acts like God is an egomaniac , putting humans into some crazed hell just because they do not believe in him. Who do you think God is , a selfish  depraved god?

God help us , Christianity has the ear of the world.


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## Mickiel (Oct 26, 2016)

Listen , hell is a myth , its a corrupt misunderstanding of scripture. And the teaching that not everyone is saved is an awful error in religion. Its a world wide covering of deception. In Isaiah 66:9,God speaking , "Shall I bring to birth and not cause to bring forth"; says the Lord , shall I cause the births and then shut the womb?  This is God saying that he created us to live. He did not create some humans to end up in the Christian hell.


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## ding (Oct 26, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> I have asked myself why a God would need a hell, ( and by hell I mean the Christian version of it). I mean here this great being of life and love , is said to have created a place of eternal misery? And something is just not right with that, because it makes no sense at all. But a lot of things in religion make no sense, but religion rains on humanity, getting all of our consciousness wet in one manner or another.
> 
> My view of God, and I don't know God, have never seen him or heard his voice; is a view that I know is already distorted by many things; but I view him as merciful, loving, kind, forgiving, longsuffering, all the things that this Christian hell is not. So I don't think this hell is God's creation, I think the Christians created it. I think this eternal hell punishing is what Christians would do with unbelievers, not God. I think its moreso what the Christians want.
> 
> Why would God make an eternal monument out of evil? For what? Why would such a being of great power of change, co-exist with misery forever? Why? I can't see it. I think something is seriously wrong with this myopic view of hell! The powers that exist which can seduce the consciousness of humanity into believing nonsense, is simply stunning.


Hell is nothing more than separation from God, albeit an eternal separation.  Each of us have His spirit within us.  Most don't realize it.  They won't miss it until it is withdrawn.  That's hell.


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## Mickiel (Oct 26, 2016)

ding said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > I have asked myself why a God would need a hell, ( and by hell I mean the Christian version of it). I mean here this great being of life and love , is said to have created a place of eternal misery? And something is just not right with that, because it makes no sense at all. But a lot of things in religion make no sense, but religion rains on humanity, getting all of our consciousness wet in one manner or another.
> ...




There will be no eternal separation from God, hell in any form other than a grave is ignorance. Just as the false notion of eternal separation from God is ignorance ; God will do no such thing ; that is something humans like you would do to other humans you don't like.


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## ding (Oct 26, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> ding said:
> 
> 
> > Mickiel said:
> ...


God doesn't do it.  We do it to our self.  He gives us what we want.


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## Mickiel (Oct 26, 2016)

ding said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > ding said:
> ...




No he does not give humans what they want ;  God does what he wants to do , he does HIS desires ; Job 23:13 ," But he is of one mind ,  and who can turn him,( or who can get their way with him),  what he wants , that he does!"

God would NOT let us condemn ourselves , he is not stupid. Humans would let humans condemn themselves ; Christians would let unbelievers condemn themselves ; that's why Christians have absolutely nothing to do with salvation.


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## ding (Oct 26, 2016)

In the parable of the prodigal son, the father was waiting at the end of the drive for his son to return.   A son that had squandered away his inheritance.  The son had rehearsed how he was going to throw himself at the mercy of his father and beg to be allowed to work as a menial worker.  We know this because he rehearsed his apology.  He never got the chance though, because as soon as his father saw him coming home, he placed a ring on his finger, a robe on his back, killed a fatted-calf and threw a big party for him.  My point here is that even though the father was waiting and hoping for his son's return, it was up to the son to make the first move.  That's how it is with God.  He's not going to force Himself on anyone.  We have to move towards Him.  If we don't He honors our wish and withdraws His Spirit.


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## Mickiel (Oct 26, 2016)

ding said:


> In the parable of the prodigal son, the father was waiting at the end of the drive for his son to return.   A son that had squandered away his inheritance.  The son had rehearsed how he was going to throw himself at the mercy of his father and beg to be allowed to work as a menial worker.  We know this because he rehearsed his apology.  He never got the chance though, because as soon as his father saw him coming home, he placed a ring on his finger, a robe on his back, killed a fatted-calf and threw a big party for him.  My point here is that even though the father was waiting and hoping for his son's return, it was up to the son to make the first move.  That's how it is with God.  He's not going to force Himself on anyone.  We have to move towards Him.  If we don't He honors our wish and withdraws His Spirit.




That is what YOU say , here is what God says in Isaiah 45:23,"I have sworn by myself , the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness and shall not return to me empty ;  that unto me EVERY knee shall bow ,  and EVERY mouth  shall confess!"  And many , many of them will not do this willingly by choice. They will submit to God and NOT because they made the first move ; that is Christian nonsense! They will be forced.

Jesus taught in John 6:44 , "NO man  come to me , (  or make the first choice or first move), unless the Father who sent me DRAW him!"

Hello!

In John 12:32 , again Jesus teaching , not Christians talking , "  If I be lifted up I will DRAW All men to me." The term "Draw" here is taken from the Greek word "Helkuo" , which means " To Drag!" To force!

Hello!


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## ding (Oct 26, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> ding said:
> 
> 
> > In the parable of the prodigal son, the father was waiting at the end of the drive for his son to return.   A son that had squandered away his inheritance.  The son had rehearsed how he was going to throw himself at the mercy of his father and beg to be allowed to work as a menial worker.  We know this because he rehearsed his apology.  He never got the chance though, because as soon as his father saw him coming home, he placed a ring on his finger, a robe on his back, killed a fatted-calf and threw a big party for him.  My point here is that even though the father was waiting and hoping for his son's return, it was up to the son to make the first move.  That's how it is with God.  He's not going to force Himself on anyone.  We have to move towards Him.  If we don't He honors our wish and withdraws His Spirit.
> ...


I'm not going to argue with you.  I have no need to convince you one way or another.  Believe as you wish and judge me as you wish.  I couldn't care less.  I can't help but wonder though, I have seen you refer to Christian nonsense a few times, if you aren't a Christian, why do you bother quoting the Bible?


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## Mickiel (Oct 26, 2016)

ding said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > ding said:
> ...



Spoken just like a Christian; you think Christians own the bible. Well they do not , the bible  has no copyrights.  You think Christians wrote  the bible ; the bible has 66 authors  only about 6 of them could be even considered Christians. How dare you ask me why I am quoting the bible , as if its not for me too.


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## Mickiel (Oct 26, 2016)

I tell you I am just sick and tired of Christianity. Their self righteousness is just sickening.


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## ding (Oct 27, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> ding said:
> 
> 
> > Mickiel said:
> ...


That's not exactly what I wrote, and you didn't answer the question.  I don't believe anyone owns the Bible.  Are you a Muslim?  Because if so, I wouldn't expect you to understand the Bible.  How could you?  It's not your religion, right?


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## ding (Oct 27, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> I tell you I am just sick and tired of Christianity. Their self righteousness is just sickening.


Before you start calling other people self righteous, maybe you should consider looking into a mirror, brother.


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## Mickiel (Oct 27, 2016)

ding said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > ding said:
> ...




Christians do not hold a monopoly on understanding the word of God , your religion is just so self righteous , that they teach their members that only they understand the bible.  That is a horrible spirit  , and that spirit is " Coming out of you", I see it in how you question me.

The word of God is for the whole world ,  you Christians can't keep it to yourselves. Jesus did not die just for Christians. I already know that telling you these things will be like water running off a ducks back. You are plugged into a fixed mindset of belief.

To answer your question , I am not in any religion ;  I walk alone.


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## Mickiel (Oct 27, 2016)

I tell you , eternal punishing hell is a rank deception and false blatant doctrine ; but the powers that choose to spread the lie , could not have chosen a better group than Christianity to spread it.


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## ding (Oct 27, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> ding said:
> 
> 
> > Mickiel said:
> ...


_ I never said Christians hold a monopoly on understanding the word of God.  I said, I wouldn't expect a Muslim to understand Christianity any better than a Christian would understand Islam.  How could they?  It's not their religion.  You seem to have an axe to grind with Christians, brother.  And you are the one who is accusing me of having a horrible spirit?  You worry about yourself and I'll worry about myself.  How's that?

P.S.  Are you a Muslim?  Beliefs not worth admitting are beliefs not worth having.  _


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## ding (Oct 27, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> I tell you , eternal punishing hell is a rank deception and false blatant doctrine ; but the powers that choose to spread the lie , could not have chosen a better group than Christianity to spread it.


Bless your heart.


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## Mickiel (Oct 27, 2016)

[QUOTE="ding, _  You worry about yourself and I'll worry about myself.  How's that?

P.S.  Are you a Muslim?  Beliefs not worth admitting are beliefs not worth having.  _[/QUOTE]

Spoken like a selfish religion, tell people to worry about themselves. Translation ;  if you don't agree with my religion , your on your own. Christians ;  they will shake the dust off their feet as they condemn you. Its a physical sign they are done with you. God is not using humans to save humans , because humans are too selfish ;  even with salvation. Why would God use a people who are selfish to help people?

For the second time I am not a Muslim ,I am not in any religion; they think too much like you. I walk alone , like you say , I see to myself.


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## Mickiel (Oct 27, 2016)

ding said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > I tell you , eternal punishing hell is a rank deception and false blatant doctrine ; but the powers that choose to spread the lie , could not have chosen a better group than Christianity to spread it.
> ...




Well thank you.


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## ding (Oct 27, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> ding said:
> 
> 
> > Mickiel said:
> ...


You are more than welcome.  I hope you don't mind if I don't believe you when you tell me that you are not a Muslim.  Muslim... Nation of Islam... same thing.


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## Mickiel (Oct 27, 2016)

ding said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > ding said:
> ...




I am not in the Nation of Islam, for the third time I am not in any religion. Let me repeat that ,I am not a member of any religion on this planet. And there are no religions off planet that I know of. But I understand your NEED to place me into something YOU think I am in. Its so Christian of you to try and categorize me ; you know , so you can better condemn me.


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## ding (Oct 27, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> ding said:
> 
> 
> > Mickiel said:
> ...


 I have not condemned anyone.  What did I write that would make you believe I have condemned Muslims or the Nation of Islam?  The only one who has been disparaging others is you.  Or do you not see that?


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## Mickiel (Oct 27, 2016)

ding said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > ding said:
> ...




I am not disparaging others ,I believe all of humanity is saved ;explain to me the disparaging in that. You believe that millions of humans are going to your religion's hell ; now that's disparaging; or do you not see that?

I already know that Christianity condemns Islam and Muslims.  Its the Christian way to condemn other religions.


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## ding (Oct 27, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> ding said:
> 
> 
> > Mickiel said:
> ...


You know nothing.  You believe something.  And despite your denials, you are clearly anti-Christian.


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## Mickiel (Oct 27, 2016)

ding said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > ding said:
> ...




Are you kidding me, you can't be that unable to read??Denial?  Who's in denial, I clearly- do you hear me "CLEARLY' ,I am anti-Christian. I have never in the last 25 years, ever denied that I am anti-Christian.

I AM anti-Christian.

I am anti-Christian.

I don't like Christians  , I don't want to be one  and I totally disagree with them.

Do us a favor and show me any where on this site , in any of my threads , that I denied being anti-Christian.

This I got to see.


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## Mickiel (Oct 28, 2016)

Well I guess he could not find what he accused me of.

How Christian of him not to offer apology.


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## ding (Oct 28, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> ding said:
> 
> 
> > Mickiel said:
> ...


Would you like for Christians to be exterminated?


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## Mickiel (Oct 29, 2016)

ding said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > ding said:
> ...




Of course not ,I think all Christians will be saved , and even they don't think that about themselves. Listen , I believe in universal salvation. No one is condemned in my view of scripture.


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## ding (Oct 29, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> ding said:
> 
> 
> > Mickiel said:
> ...


We aren't reading the same book.


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## Mickiel (Oct 29, 2016)

ding said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > ding said:
> ...




Its the same book ;  we just see the revelations of that book totally differing.


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## ding (Oct 29, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> ding said:
> 
> 
> > Mickiel said:
> ...


No.  We don't see eye to eye on any part of it.


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## Mickiel (Oct 29, 2016)

ding said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > ding said:
> ...




That is what I meant , but you did not see what I meant.


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## ding (Oct 29, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> ding said:
> 
> 
> > Mickiel said:
> ...


That is true.  I thought you were talking about the Book of Revelations.  I am glad that we both agree that we do not see eye to eye on anything.  If we did, I would have to re-think my position.


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## Mickiel (Oct 29, 2016)

ding said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > ding said:
> ...



Why are you reading my work?


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## ding (Oct 29, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> Why are you reading my work?


So that I know what not to do.


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## Mickiel (Oct 29, 2016)

God does not need a hell ,  he has a Christ.


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## Mudda (Oct 30, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> God does not need a hell ,  he has a Christ.


Christ is hell? 

Sounds about right.


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## ding (Oct 30, 2016)

Mudda said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > God does not need a hell ,  he has a Christ.
> ...


Mickel and I don't see eye to eye on many things, but that doesn't mean I would intentionally misstate what he wrote.  Elevate your game.


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## Mudda (Oct 30, 2016)

ding said:


> Mudda said:
> 
> 
> > Mickiel said:
> ...


God doesn't need a hell, he has Christ. Seems pretty straightforward to me.


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## ding (Oct 30, 2016)

Mudda said:


> God doesn't need a hell, he has Christ. Seems pretty straightforward to me.


Really?  So you don't think it is likely that he meant that since he believes Jesus will save everyone no one is going to hell, so there is no need of a hell?


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## Mudda (Oct 30, 2016)

ding said:


> Mudda said:
> 
> 
> > God doesn't need a hell, he has Christ. Seems pretty straightforward to me.
> ...


That's not what he said. Plus, apparently, there is a hell, according to god lovers. So if god doesn't need a hell, why did he create one?


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## ding (Oct 30, 2016)

Mudda said:


> ding said:
> 
> 
> > Mudda said:
> ...


Actually it is what he wrote.  It is your interpretation that is faulty.  But you already knew that.


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## Mudda (Oct 30, 2016)

ding said:


> Mudda said:
> 
> 
> > ding said:
> ...


So if god doesn't need a hell, why did he create one?


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## ding (Oct 30, 2016)

Mudda said:


> ding said:
> 
> 
> > Mudda said:
> ...


You'll have to ask Mickel that question.  I don't agree with him.  Catholic thought teaches that hell is separation from God.  That at our death, people such as yourself, will have God's spirit withdrawn from them.  Mind you not because God wanted it that way, but because you wanted it that way.  Some people don't appreciate things until they have lost them.  You may be one of those people.


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## Mickiel (Oct 30, 2016)

ding said:


> Mudda said:
> 
> 
> > ding said:
> ...




Come on Ding , don't tell him he "May be one of those condemned", be a good Christian and go in for the kill;  tell him he is doomed! You already told him the Spirit of God has withdrawn from him; come on man , burn the joker! Do the Christian thing.


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## ding (Oct 30, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> ding said:
> 
> 
> > Mudda said:
> ...


Bless your heart.  I just stated what I believed about hell.  I don't accept you to believe it.  I don't even care if you believe it.  I believe it.


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## Mudda (Oct 30, 2016)

ding said:


> Mudda said:
> 
> 
> > ding said:
> ...


So you base that on the Big Book of Fiction? God is going to withdraw his spirit from me because He couldn't prove to me in my lifetime that he exists? Just curious, when you read the preceding sentence, does it sound as stupid to you as it does to me?


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## ding (Oct 30, 2016)

Mudda said:


> ding said:
> 
> 
> > Mudda said:
> ...


Look since you don't believe in any of this, don't worry.  If you are right, then you will just fade to black.  If you are wrong, you'll have plenty of time to ponder the mistakes God made in not convincing you that His spirit was inside you all along.


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## Mickiel (Oct 30, 2016)

Its educational that we have alive example of Christianity here on thread ,so you can see how these people actually think and believe.  We have a Christian talking to an Atheist , literally telling him he is going to their hell.

Notice Jesus as he taught on this ; Matt. 23:15 " Woe to you Scribes and Pharisees , hypocrites. For you travel sea and land to make one convert, and when he is made , you make him twice more the child of hell than yourselves!"

You either go to their hell if you don't believe , or if you believe you become even more of a hell monger in your consciousness. Notice the Christian consciousness in this man , how he holds to hell and condemnation so tightly, they are " Twice convinced of the deadly doctrine" , or twice the child of hell.


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## Mudda (Oct 30, 2016)

ding said:


> Look since you don't believe in any of this, don't worry.  If you are right, then you will just fade to black.  If you are wrong, you'll have plenty of time to ponder the mistakes God made in not convincing you that His spirit was inside you all along.


Why fade to black? Evidence points to re-incarnation, no matter what tooth fairy you believe in.

As for your god, he makes zero attempt to convince me and then punishes me for it? ALERT! God is a massive douchebag!


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## Mudda (Oct 30, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> Its educational that we have alive example of Christianity here on thread ,so you can see how these people actually think and believe.  We have a Christian talking to an Atheist , literally telling him he is going to their hell.
> 
> Notice Jesus as he taught on this ; Matt. 23:15 " Woe to you Scribes and Pharisees , hypocrites. For you travel sea and land to make one convert, and when he is made , you make him twice more the child of hell than yourselves!"
> 
> You either go to their hell if you don't believe , or if you believe you become even more of a hell monger in your consciousness. Notice the Christian consciousness in this man , how he holds to hell and condemnation so tightly, they are " Twice convinced of the deadly doctrine" , or twice the child of hell.


I am not an atheist, I'm an agnostic, as I see no proof for or against to possibility of a god existing and if anyone ever comes up with real proof either way, I'm open to changing my mind.


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## Mickiel (Oct 30, 2016)

Enjoy with me this study ;

The Salvation Conspiracy: How Hell Became Eternal


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## ding (Oct 30, 2016)

Mudda said:


> ding said:
> 
> 
> > Look since you don't believe in any of this, don't worry.  If you are right, then you will just fade to black.  If you are wrong, you'll have plenty of time to ponder the mistakes God made in not convincing you that His spirit was inside you all along.
> ...


What evidence do you have that points to re-incarnation? What exactly gets re-incarnated?  

Well, there is only one Creator, so I don't think I can call Him my God, but I will pass on your message when I meet Him.


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## ding (Oct 30, 2016)

Mudda said:


> ding said:
> 
> 
> > Look since you don't believe in any of this, don't worry.  If you are right, then you will just fade to black.  If you are wrong, you'll have plenty of time to ponder the mistakes God made in not convincing you that His spirit was inside you all along.
> ...


Did I tell you that you were going to hell?  Also, you might want to tell Mickel that you are agnostic.  I think he thinks you are an atheist.  And lastly, please feel free to resume your intellectual discussion with Mickey.  I think he is getting jealous that you are spending time with me.  I'm sure you guys discussions are very deep.


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## C_Clayton_Jones (Oct 30, 2016)

"Why would a God even need a hell?"

It wouldn’t – consistent with the fact that there is no ‘god’ as perceived by theists.


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## C_Clayton_Jones (Oct 30, 2016)

RWNJ said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > onefour1 said:
> ...


The only thing clear is that ‘scripture’ was written by men, not a ‘god,’ nor was it ‘inspired’ by a ‘god.’

Religion and ‘god’ are creations of man.


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## ding (Oct 30, 2016)

C_Clayton_Jones said:


> RWNJ said:
> 
> 
> > Mickiel said:
> ...


How do you know?


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## Mickiel (Oct 30, 2016)

ding said:


> Mudda said:
> 
> 
> > ding said:
> ...




Your wrong again ,I don't have speaks with him. His language is too foul. I do not seek to limit any conversations on any of my threads between people.


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## Mudda (Oct 30, 2016)

ding said:


> Mudda said:
> 
> 
> > ding said:
> ...


How do you know that there's only one creator? You don't, do you. And if god isn't your god, isn't he going to be pissed that you say that when you meet him?

There are plenty of stories of kids knowing intimate details of things without ever have been there or had any connection to it or them... 
and you'll be happy to know that some religions believe in that as well, so the Christian idea of eternal life with god is possibly the religion that is wrong, because you all can't be right together.


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## Mudda (Oct 30, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> ding said:
> 
> 
> > Mudda said:
> ...


You both share something in common, zero proof for your invisible friend.


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## ding (Oct 30, 2016)

Mudda said:


> How do you know that there's only one creator? You don't, do you. And if god isn't your god, isn't he going to be pissed that you say that when you meet him?


It's called faith.   In the Bible He has many names, but there is only one.  I won't get into the whole Trinity thing.  That probably didn't stick from your days in CCC.
God may be pissed at me when I meet Him, but it won't be for that.  Didn't I already mention I'm not a saint. 


Mudda said:


> There are plenty of stories of kids knowing intimate details of things without ever have been there or had any connection to it or them...


How is that possible? 


Mudda said:


> and you'll be happy to know that some religions believe in that as well,


Yes, I know.  I studied all of the religions before I made my decision to return to my faith. 


Mudda said:


> so the Christian idea of eternal life with god is possibly the religion that is wrong, because you all can't be right together.


Yep, that may be true, but I like my odds better than yours, because for you to be right, every single one of them must be wrong.


Mudda said:


> You both share something in common, zero proof for your invisible friend.


No.  That's not true.  I have proof enough for me to believe.  I don't have proof enough for you to believe.  I couldn't even get you to agree that tangible items can be used as evidence.  If you won't accept that, there really is no sense in going any further.  Other than narrowly focused discussions such as this where I shared the Catholic thought of hell.  This is Mickey's thing.


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## Mickiel (Oct 30, 2016)

ding said:


> Mudda said:
> 
> 
> > How do you know that there's only one creator? You don't, do you. And if god isn't your god, isn't he going to be pissed that you say that when you meet him?
> ...




In my view its a God thing ;
23 Minutes In Hell


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## Mudda (Oct 31, 2016)

ding said:


> Mudda said:
> 
> 
> > How do you know that there's only one creator? You don't, do you. And if god isn't your god, isn't he going to be pissed that you say that when you meet him?
> ...


"It's called faith." Ok, so now you're admitting that you have no real proof, as we all know that faith means the belief in something unproven. I can even look it up for you if need be.

"In the Bible..." Again, can you prove any of the big things in the bible? Or do you agree that it's mainly a book of fiction?

How is re-incarnation possible? Read your bible, Jesus re-incarnated. 

"but I like my odds better than yours, because for you to be right, every single one of them must be wrong."
The precise number of religions in the world is not known, but available estimates show the number to be about 4,300, according to Adherents.com. Your odds are 4300 to 1. You have a 0.02% chance of being right. Don't bet the farm. 
Several religions believe in re-incarnation, so I win the odds game. 

"I have proof enough for me to believe." You actually not shown ANY proof at all, you just point to the universe and say "Hey, that's proof of something, isn't it?" Making your standard of proof extremely low, if not non-existent.


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## Mickiel (Oct 31, 2016)

Why would God need a hell? Well Christians think like humans, THEY would put unbelievers in this hell; THEY would punish them forever. They are teaching what THEY understand.

THEY think God is like them. So THEY think God would punish humans forever.


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## Mudda (Oct 31, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> Why would God need a hell? Well Christians think like humans, THEY would put unbelievers in this hell; THEY would punish them forever. They are teaching what THEY understand.
> 
> THEY think God is like them. So THEY think God would punish humans forever.


You're going to hell in a handbasket.


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## Mickiel (Oct 31, 2016)

Mudda said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > Why would God need a hell? Well Christians think like humans, THEY would put unbelievers in this hell; THEY would punish them forever. They are teaching what THEY understand.
> ...




You need to follow me around , not because your a shadow ,but because you can't cast a shadow,( Or a thread), of your own.


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## Mudda (Oct 31, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> Mudda said:
> 
> 
> > Mickiel said:
> ...


You realize you're going to hell, don't you?


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## Mickiel (Oct 31, 2016)

The "Way of hell"  is the Christian way THEY would solve the problem of unbelief ;


We are most fortunate that THEY are not God. If Christians were God , we all would be in serious trouble.


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## ABikerSailor (Oct 31, 2016)

Mudda said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > Mudda said:
> ...



You realize that only God can consign someone to hell (according to Christian beliefs), and also, it is wrong to judge others, because again, only God can do that. 

How do you know that God is going to send them to hell?  Is it based on your own limited beliefs, or is it based in the all encompassing Love from the Almighty?  If it's based on love, nobody will go to hell.

Personally?  I think that hell is a concept invented by Christians as a way to keep the masses in line and scare them with something bad if they don't comply.

Why do I say this?  Well, because of a simple understanding of physics, as well as some understanding from the Bible. 

It says in the Bible that God is Light, and if we are good, we will be with Him forever.  If we are not good, then we will be separated from Him and consigned to hell.

Christians also believe that hell is a place of eternal hellfire.

Now, if God is Light, then physics would dictate that Heaven is a warm place, because it's full of light.  Hell (which is a separation from God) shouldn't be full of fire, it should be dark and cold. 

Nope, the Christian version of hell is a myth.  Even the Jews don't believe in it, but they DO have a concept of Paradise (Heaven), as well as they have a concept that includes reincarnation.


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## Mickiel (Oct 31, 2016)

In the Kingdom to come , there will be no such thing as separation from God ; that is a Christian myth. Christians just " Want" people like me and unbelievers to be separated from God ;  its a Christian "Desire":, that is why they can't come off of it. They got to have it and will defend it with their lives.


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## RWNJ (Oct 31, 2016)

ABikerSailor said:


> Mudda said:
> 
> 
> > Mickiel said:
> ...


 "Anyone whose name was not found written in the Book of Life was thrown into the lake of fire. (revalations 20:15)"


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## Mickiel (Oct 31, 2016)

RWNJ said:


> ABikerSailor said:
> 
> 
> > Mudda said:
> ...




I am happy to contest you ;  I am happy to show what you cannot show; I am happy to go against your perverted view of God and Salvation ;

Jesus in Mark 9:49 , " For EVERYONE shall be salted with fire." We all have a date with the Lake of Fire , its how we will be cleansed and changed.


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## ding (Oct 31, 2016)

Mudda said:


> Ok, so now you're admitting that you have no real proof...



Not exactly.  The reality is that belief in God is taken on faith, but that doesn't mean we cannot infer His existence indirectly.  Your problem is that there is nothing you will accept that does not confirm your bias.  I don't have that problem.  I was in the exact same position you are  in, but I made a conscious effort to be objective.  I did find enough indirect evidence and proof to establish my faith that God does exist and that He wants a relationship with me through the Trinity.  You on the other hand have closed your mind to these possibilities and are missing out on a great deal of wisdom and knowledge and it shows.  On a side note, even you yourself admitted that the existence of God cannot be proven or disproven, right?



Mudda said:


> ...as we all know that faith means the belief in something unproven. I can even look it up for you if need be.



That too is not exactly correct.  Faith means having complete trust or confidence in someone or something.  I don't know anyone who would put complete trust or confidence in someone or something that they did not first have a good reason to do so.



Mudda said:


> Again, can you prove any of the big things in the bible?


I have already explained to you that the Bible consists of several different literary types; historical, poetic, prophesy, allegorical, etc.  I can say with 100% certainty that there is nothing anyone can tell you that you will accept.  So, yes, I can prove them, but not to you.  Your mind is already made up.  It would be a waste of time for both of us. 



Mudda said:


> Or do you agree that it's mainly a book of fiction?



No.  I don't agree.  But I'm not about to try to convince you.  I don't care enough.  I'm happy with you believing anything you want, but I'm not sure you can say the same.  It is important for you to feel your non-belief is validated.  I don't have that problem.



Mudda said:


> How is re-incarnation possible? Read your bible, Jesus re-incarnated.



Lol, no, I meant how is it possible that you accept their accounts as true.



Mudda said:


> The precise number of religions in the world is not known, but available estimates show the number to be about 4,300, according to Adherents.com. Your odds are 4300 to 1. You have a 0.02% chance of being right. Don't bet the farm.
> Several religions believe in re-incarnation, so I win the odds game.



No.  You don't.  You are an atheist (most likely a militant atheist).  For you to be right, every religion must be wrong.



Mudda said:


> You actually not shown ANY proof at all, you just point to the universe and say "Hey, that's proof of something, isn't it?" Making your standard of proof extremely low, if not non-existent.



That's right, I am not trying to prove to you that God exists.  I thought I made that clear like 100 times.  We can't get past the first step.  You won't even accept that tangible items can be used as evidence and information can be obtained from them.  It wouldn't make any sense to go any further at this point.  Your problem is that you think I am trying to convince you of God's existence.  I'm not.  I really don't care one way or another.  But I still find it odd that you spend your days wanting to discuss God.  When I didn't believe in God, I didn't waste my time on that.  So you might want to reconsider who the joke is on; someone who spends his time discussing something he believes or someone who spends his time discussing something he doesn't believe.  In fact, you are so desperate for me to discuss God with you, that you keep trying to bait me into discussing it.  I'm sorry, that's just not going to work, I don't care enough.  But I really do enjoy our conversations, I'm just afraid you may not be getting out of it as much as I am.  I believe that Mickey might be more your speed.


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## Mickiel (Oct 31, 2016)

Join  reading this young lady and her view;


You Are Going To Hell!


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## Mickiel (Nov 1, 2016)

Hey in Phil. 3:21 Jesus has the power" To Subdue ALL things to himself", see Christians don't "Believe " that Christ Loves all of humanity enough to use that power of submission , so they came up with the free will doctrine and the " Acceptance clause of salvation" ,meaning the unbeliever must " Accept Christ" , or salvation is impossible.

Why would Jesus or God develop a free will standard or an acceptance clause, if it would lead to billions of humans being lost? Billions lost , just to honor a standard? When  you have the power to subdue them ill respective of what THEY do or think?  See the Christian mind can easily condemn billions of humans to honor their will;  giving a human free will is not worth it condemning them , but to perverted Christianity it is. And they believe God and Jesus are perverted;;; Imagine 100 billion humans standing before God , who has the power to subdue all of them and give them a totally new consciousness, but yet he condemns them because "They did not decide on their own to believe in him." And God tolerates their condemnation in order to satisfy some free will principle. That's stupid! Totally absurd!

But stupid principles are being believed over the grace and power of God.


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## Mickiel (Nov 2, 2016)

Here's a common sense question for you;


What The Hell Is Hell?


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## ABikerSailor (Nov 2, 2016)

You know, it says in the Bible that hell is actually a separation from God.  That is the true definition of it.

And..................since God is Light, and light generates heat, Heaven is a warm place, and hell is dark and cold, because it's separated from God.

Guess all those people who said they would do or allow something when hell freezes over have a lot to answer for.


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## Mickiel (Nov 2, 2016)

ABikerSailor said:


> You know, it says in the Bible that hell is actually a separation from God.  That is the true definition of it.
> 
> And..................since God is Light, and light generates heat, Heaven is a warm place, and hell is dark and cold, because it's separated from God.
> 
> Guess all those people who said they would do or allow something when hell freezes over have a lot to answer for.




The bible does not teach that hell is separation from God , it teaches that hell is the grave. That is what hell really is , a hole in the ground. But religious teachers have holes in their heads and teach the wrong things.


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## RWNJ (Nov 2, 2016)

ABikerSailor said:


> You know, it says in the Bible that hell is actually a separation from God.  That is the true definition of it.
> 
> And..................since God is Light, and light generates heat, Heaven is a warm place, and hell is dark and cold, because it's separated from God.
> 
> Guess all those people who said they would do or allow something when hell freezes over have a lot to answer for.


That's some pretty tortured logic. Especially since the Bible says that unbelievers will be thrown into the lake of fire.


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## ABikerSailor (Nov 2, 2016)

RWNJ said:


> ABikerSailor said:
> 
> 
> > You know, it says in the Bible that hell is actually a separation from God.  That is the true definition of it.
> ...



That's from the New Testament, and only shows up in Revelation.  I think that was put in there by the church to scare the people into their arms. 

Did you know that fire is the most feared way to die by humans?


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## RWNJ (Nov 2, 2016)

ABikerSailor said:


> RWNJ said:
> 
> 
> > ABikerSailor said:
> ...


Doesn't really matter what you think. Hell is real. If you do not know God, that's where you're going. At least that's what Scripture says.


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## ABikerSailor (Nov 2, 2016)

RWNJ said:


> ABikerSailor said:
> 
> 
> > RWNJ said:
> ...



You mean, that's what CHRISTIAN scripture says.  There are many different religions (some are even older than Christianity) that have some version of Heaven as well, so are you saying that the Christian faith will keep a Buddhist or Hindu who has abided by the tenents of their faith all their life, from reaching their version of Heaven?


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## Mickiel (Nov 2, 2016)

RWNJ said:


> ABikerSailor said:
> 
> 
> > RWNJ said:
> ...




Hell is not real ;

Bible Reality Check--A Case Against Hell


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## Divine Wind (Nov 2, 2016)

RWNJ said:


> Doesn't really matter what you think. Hell is real. If you do not know God, that's where you're going. At least that's what Scripture says.


It would help if you cited the actual scripture you are referencing.


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## ABikerSailor (Nov 2, 2016)

Divine.Wind said:


> RWNJ said:
> 
> 
> > Doesn't really matter what you think. Hell is real. If you do not know God, that's where you're going. At least that's what Scripture says.
> ...





Divine.Wind said:


> RWNJ said:
> 
> 
> > Doesn't really matter what you think. Hell is real. If you do not know God, that's where you're going. At least that's what Scripture says.
> ...



They don't have to quote it, I know roughly where it is.  It's in the book of Revelation, after the final judgement where all the sinners are put forever in a lake of fire and the rest live with Jesus and God in Heaven.


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## Divine Wind (Nov 2, 2016)

Revelations has always been an odd book just like Job is an odd book in the OT.  It certainly doesn't fit with the words of Jesus.  In fact, outside of the Gospels, not much of the NT fits with the words of Jesus.


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## Mickiel (Nov 2, 2016)

23 Minutes In Hell


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## ABikerSailor (Nov 2, 2016)

Divine.Wind said:


> Revelations has always been an odd book just like Job is an odd book in the OT.  It certainly doesn't fit with the words of Jesus.  In fact, outside of the Gospels, not much of the NT fits with the words of Jesus.



Not meaning to correct you Divine, but it's "revelation" not "revelations".  There is no "s" at the end. 

And, I agree with you, not much of the NT fits in with what Jesus taught.  But then again, that is because Jesus was a good Jewish man, who kept the Jewish faith, not a Christian.


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## Mickiel (Nov 3, 2016)

Why would God need a hell, when he is full of grace , forgiveness and Love? The people who believe in hell , just don't know God.


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## Mickiel (Nov 3, 2016)

Christianity and religion are pimping all the wrong translations of " Hell' and gullible humanity has brought them all; its STUNNING how  man addicts himself to lies easier than to truths. The devil , like a pimp , has churches addicted to his lies and he has them whoring to the world; while the truth gets sectioned off to little unknown places like this one;


16. Hebrew and Greek words mistranslated to mean Hell

Christianity and its lies has all the pomp and shine and glitter and publicity, and its just as wrong as two left feet.


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## Mickiel (Nov 4, 2016)

Believers who teach any form of eternal punishment from God , are simply deceived and horribly blind to the glorious gospel of truth ; they are puppets of satan spreading the worse perversion of the gospel possible. In Romans 5:18 " Therefore by the offence of one judgment came upon ALL men to condemnation, " ( now hell believers will jump all on the first part of this verse ,  because they get fired up and motivated by seeing the word " Condemnation";  its been " Dropped into their spirit" and is a desperate part of their belief ,  condemnation has surgically been glued into their consciousness ) , " Even so,  by the righteousness of one the FREE GIFT  came upon ALL MEN  unto justification of life!" This second part of verse has not been dropped into the Spirit of Christianity.  The same All men who were condemned ,  are now given free justification to live eternal life with God! Effectively canceling out anything , any doctrine that condemns any human for any reason. That is the glorious gospel of truth.

But you must remember that Christianity is not being used by God to preach the truth. They are being used to preach the gospel of hell ;  and that is exactly what they have been doing.


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## Mickiel (Nov 4, 2016)

The rich man Lazarus lie ;


The Rich Man and Lazarus and Hell


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## Mickiel (Nov 4, 2016)

Why would God need a hell, why would God let Christian doctrine rule?


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## ABikerSailor (Nov 5, 2016)

God lets Christian doctrine rule because that is where hell is.


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## Mickiel (Nov 5, 2016)

ABikerSailor said:


> God lets Christian doctrine rule because that is where hell is.




Well God is letting the confused belief of hell thrive in the world because he made satan the god of this world ; and the contorted belief rules for now.

When God wants a belief to get distorted , he just gives it to Christianity and they just naturally ruin it.


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## Mickiel (Nov 5, 2016)

Why would a Christian need hell, because without it their religion isn't worth a hell.


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## ABikerSailor (Nov 5, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> Why would a Christian need hell, because without it their religion isn't worth a hell.



Not to sound cynical here, but, it's not the Christians that need a hell to make them behave, because most people (not all, but most) are capable of being "moral" on their own because they see the benefit of peacefully living with others.

The religion itself really doesn't need to have a hell either, because they already have the ultimate carrot by promising people that they can get into Heaven.  And, most people, when they can see the benefit of something for themselves will automatically choose Heaven.

Nope................it's the people that CONTROL the religion that need to have a hell.  How else are they going to scare people into the pews so that they can further scare them into giving them lots of money?  They can't.  

To sum up.............God gave us the carrot of being with Him in Heaven if we follow His Commandments.

Mankind gave us the stick of hell to scare people into believing so they can rake in cash.


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## ding (Nov 5, 2016)

ABikerSailor said:


> Not to sound cynical here, but, it's not the Christians that need a hell to make them behave, because most people (not all, but most) are capable of being "moral" on their own because they see the benefit of peacefully living with others.



Agree.  Virtue is the ultimate organizing principle.



ABikerSailor said:


> The religion itself really doesn't need to have a hell either, because they already have the ultimate carrot by promising people that they can get into Heaven. And, most people, when they can see the benefit of something for themselves will automatically choose Heaven.



Disagree.  If people really believed that there was an all powerful omnipotent being that would hold them accountable, WE all would behave differently. 



ABikerSailor said:


> Nope................it's the people that CONTROL the religion that need to have a hell. How else are they going to scare people into the pews so that they can further scare them into giving them lots of money? They can't.



Disagree.  This is to stereotypical.  By any objective measure religion has been a force for good.



ABikerSailor said:


> To sum up.............God gave us the carrot of being with Him in Heaven if we follow His Commandments.
> 
> Mankind gave us the stick of hell to scare people into believing so they can rake in cash.



Disagree.  God gave us the free will to know good and evil and to choose between them.


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## ABikerSailor (Nov 5, 2016)

ding said:


> ABikerSailor said:
> 
> 
> > Not to sound cynical here, but, it's not the Christians that need a hell to make them behave, because most people (not all, but most) are capable of being "moral" on their own because they see the benefit of peacefully living with others.
> ...



Virtue doesn't have anything to do with it.  People cooperate and live together because it's much easier to be part of a community than it is to be by yourself.   Damn near everyone depends on at least 10 other people to live, because you don't generate the power yourself, you don't get the water, you didn't pave the roads, etc.  But, because others did, it made it easier for you to live, and apparently, you've got skills that are valuable to the community because you live there and have a job. 

Actually, even without invoking the fear of hell, an all powerful deity WOULD be able to influence their followers by telling them if they didn't follow the rules, they would not be allowed in Heaven.  That should be incentive enough.

By any objective measure religion has been a force for good?  Really?  We can start off with religion being used as justification for terror attacks by Islam, as well as religion justifies murder of doctors who perform abortions.  We can go back a bit further to when people were terrified that JFK would become president because he was a Catholic and would be influenced by the Pope.  

How about going back to where the Christian missionaries forced children of Native Americans into Christianity, as well as forbade them to practice parts of their own heritage and speak their own language because they thought they were "heathens"?  

Want to talk about how religion and hysteria managed to kill quite a few women who were burned at the stake as witches?

How about Torquemada and the Spanish Inquisition?  Crusades perhaps?  Religion isn't always a force for good.

And free will has nothing to do with the charlatans that sucker you into their belief system by scaring you with hell.  Myself?  I decided that Christianity was a sucker's bet when I was around 16 and stopped going to church.  A few years later, I found a spiritual belief system that works pretty well for me, and I don't really care if I make it to Christian heaven, because I believe that I'm going somewhere else just as good, if not better, because it won't have as many judgemental idiots.


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## jillian (Nov 5, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> I have asked myself why a God would need a hell, ( and by hell I mean the Christian version of it). I mean here this great being of life and love , is said to have created a place of eternal misery? And something is just not right with that, because it makes no sense at all. But a lot of things in religion make no sense, but religion rains on humanity, getting all of our consciousness wet in one manner or another.
> 
> My view of God, and I don't know God, have never seen him or heard his voice; is a view that I know is already distorted by many things; but I view him as merciful, loving, kind, forgiving, longsuffering, all the things that this Christian hell is not. So I don't think this hell is God's creation, I think the Christians created it. I think this eternal hell punishing is what Christians would do with unbelievers, not God. I think its moreso what the Christians want.
> 
> Why would God make an eternal monument out of evil? For what? Why would such a being of great power of change, co-exist with misery forever? Why? I can't see it. I think something is seriously wrong with this myopic view of hell! The powers that exist which can seduce the consciousness of humanity into believing nonsense, is simply stunning.



there is no hell. it exists only in christianity.... and it's image is taken from dante.


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## Mickiel (Nov 5, 2016)

Hell is an expression of what religious people would do to unbelievers if it were up to them. If salvation were in the hands of Christianity , they would put most people in their hell. I would be put in their hell for believing that God and Christ have saved everybody ; that kind of salvation is not allowed in Christianity.

I would be put in their hell for disagreeing with them ;  that is not allowed.
I would be sentenced to their hell for removing the competition from salvation.

I would be placed in their hell for making Christianity of little importance to God.

I would be placed in their hell for totally forgiving All Atheist and Homosexuals , that certainly is not allowed in Christiandom.


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## RWNJ (Nov 5, 2016)

ABikerSailor said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > Why would a Christian need hell, because without it their religion isn't worth a hell.
> ...


What you fail to realize is that Christians do not follow God because of the threat of Hell. That is a fallacy. They follow Him out Love...Because He sent His only Son to Die, so that we may live.


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## Mickiel (Nov 5, 2016)

RWNJ said:


> ABikerSailor said:
> 
> 
> > Mickiel said:
> ...




Do Christians love unbelievers? If they do , why do they condemn them so much?


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## ding (Nov 5, 2016)

ABikerSailor said:


> Virtue doesn't have anything to do with it....


Really?  So then two kind people won't have a better relationship than two cruel people?


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## Care4all (Nov 5, 2016)

Isn't hell, just the absence of God after death?  Some have eternal life... in the presence of God, while others don't?

And the Lake of Fire is something different...it's where the antichrist is thrown, and his minions are thrown...and maybe even the proverbial Dragon or Serpent of old, are thrown...like a prison of sorts, until he releases him or them one last time(in the form of gog and magog) after the thousand year reign of Christ on earth?

(Do I really understand what I just said?  NOT Necessarily!!!!!   but i try!)


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## ding (Nov 5, 2016)

Care4all said:


> Isn't hell, just the absence of God after death? Some have eternal life... in the presence of God, while others don't?



Yes.  That is what I have been saying.  Thank you.


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## Care4all (Nov 5, 2016)

ding said:


> Care4all said:
> 
> 
> > Isn't hell, just the absence of God after death? Some have eternal life... in the presence of God, while others don't?
> ...


you're welcome....  I haven't read the thread, only the op's post .....then I posted my thoughts...

so, what;s the argument?  I can see the thread has 20 pages....obviously, there must be plenty of them....


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## ding (Nov 5, 2016)

Care4all said:


> ding said:
> 
> 
> > Care4all said:
> ...


Let me summarize it for you.  Christians bad.  

I think the guy is some kind of concern troll.


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## Mickiel (Nov 5, 2016)

Why would a God need any kind of hell? Hell is systematically being removed from most bible's , you just can't remove it from the Christian mind.

How many times is hell mentioned in the Bible?


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## Care4all (Nov 5, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> Hell is an expression of what religious people would do to unbelievers if it were up to them. If salvation were in the hands of Christianity , they would put most people in their hell. I would be put in their hell for believing that God and Christ have saved everybody ; that kind of salvation is not allowed in Christianity.
> 
> I would be put in their hell for disagreeing with them ;  that is not allowed.
> I would be sentenced to their hell for removing the competition from salvation.
> ...


that's simply NOT TRUE....

...forgive us our trespasses as we forgive THOSE who trespass against us...

forgiveness of sins is a key to Christianity, even the sins of gays or atheists or other Christians who have sinned against God...

Did Christ let the adulteress get Stoned to death by the crowd of men anxious to do so?

Didn't Christ let the prostitute wipe his feet with her tears and shocked the Pharisees?

Didn't Moses murder a man?

And the same with King David killing Bathsheba's husband? 

Christians are not suppose to judge another's salvation...  yes, we can discern and judge right from wrong, but not someone elses soul....?


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## Mickiel (Nov 6, 2016)

Care4all said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > Hell is an expression of what religious people would do to unbelievers if it were up to them. If salvation were in the hands of Christianity , they would put most people in their hell. I would be put in their hell for believing that God and Christ have saved everybody ; that kind of salvation is not allowed in Christianity.
> ...




Christians here at this site and all over the world are judging the salvation of others, the Christian hell is the place where all those who get condemned are supposed to spend their eternity. Forgiveness of sins is not a key of Christianity; that is just a smoke screen that hides the true Christian desire to rid the world of evildoers.

If anyone rejects Christ , Christians do not forgive them;
If anyone rejects Christianity , Christians do not forgive that ;
If anyone does not believe in God , Christians do not forgive that;
If anyone believes that everyone is saved , Christians will never forgive that belief;

I don't know what Christians you have been around. The one's I have met are cold blooded.


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## Care4all (Nov 6, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> Care4all said:
> 
> 
> > Mickiel said:
> ...


There are some who claim Christianity... yet are cold blooded, I can't deny that, since I've witnessed it, on this very board...and maybe that's their own sin, like others that supposedly fall short...that they point fingers at....?

They are suppose to forgive you of whatever your shortcomings are....  as you, are suppose to forgive them of theirs....

maybe if you took the first step, of forgiving them for being that way....and somehow....through grace, this will lead them in to being kinder and stop pointing their fingers in condemnation....?

killing them with kindness?

I dunno?  But grouping all people together as this, that, or the other....is the problem, and you are doing the same thing as them....imo.


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## Mickiel (Nov 6, 2016)

Care4all said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > Care4all said:
> ...




There may be certain individual Christians who would forgive anyone of anything ; such is the heart of God;  Those who would do as such , are the true hearted believers in my view; Those who would not forgive need to be grouped together and identified for what they are. Jesus died for ALL sin and sinners;; all have sinned so we all need that cleansing from Christ ,If any believer holds back their forgiveness, they then cannot help this world.


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## Mickiel (Nov 6, 2016)

It is impossible for any Christian to factor into anyone's salvation.


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## RWNJ (Nov 6, 2016)

Care4all said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > Hell is an expression of what religious people would do to unbelievers if it were up to them. If salvation were in the hands of Christianity , they would put most people in their hell. I would be put in their hell for believing that God and Christ have saved everybody ; that kind of salvation is not allowed in Christianity.
> ...


Scripture tells us that you will know Christians by their love. If you do not have love, you do not have Christ in your life. Also, ones actions should reflect the life of Christ. Granted, everyone sins. But continual, willful sin is a sure sign that someone is not a Christian. So yes. We can judge.


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## Mickiel (Nov 6, 2016)

RWNJ said:


> Care4all said:
> 
> 
> > Mickiel said:
> ...




Being a "Christian" means absolutely nothing to God. The title and term " Christian" has absolutely nothing to do with salvation.

Christian  only means something to a Christian.


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## Mickiel (Nov 7, 2016)

Love means something to God , no love is expressed in the Christian doctrine of hell

its a useless myth


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## ABikerSailor (Nov 7, 2016)

RWNJ said:


> Care4all said:
> 
> 
> > Mickiel said:
> ...



We will know Christians by their "love"?  Really?  How much "love" are they showing when they consign someone to hell for not believing as they do?


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## Mickiel (Nov 8, 2016)

Christianity is a fake wind, they have gotten by purely on their name sake. Just on the reputation of their name.


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## Mickiel (Nov 9, 2016)

To even believe in an  eternal hell is a true sign of a sick perverted mind.


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## Mickiel (Nov 10, 2016)

The Christian teaching of hell is ruining the reputation of God.


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## Mudda (Nov 11, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> Christianity is a fake wind, they have gotten by purely on their name sake. Just on the reputation of their name.


It's a fake wind, like all the fartsmoke you spread around here?


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## Mickiel (Nov 11, 2016)

Mudda said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > Christianity is a fake wind, they have gotten by purely on their name sake. Just on the reputation of their name.
> ...



I hold no interest in your insulting modes of conversation; I just can't figure out why your so attracted to me rejecting these ways in you??


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## Mudda (Nov 11, 2016)

Mickiel said:


> Mudda said:
> 
> 
> > Mickiel said:
> ...


You just look desperate for someone to answer your posts. I'm just trying to help. You could also try some Beano.


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## Mickiel (Nov 11, 2016)

Mudda said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > Mudda said:
> ...




Well I think its obvious that you need me more than I need you; welcome


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## ABikerSailor (Nov 11, 2016)

You know, since God is all powerful and all knowing, He doesn't really need anything to scare people into following Him.

However..................................Christians and those who profess that faith DO need hell, because otherwise there is nothing to scare the non believers with.


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## Mickiel (Nov 11, 2016)

ABikerSailor said:


> You know, since God is all powerful and all knowing, He doesn't really need anything to scare people into following Him.
> 
> However..................................Christians and those who profess that faith DO need hell, because otherwise there is nothing to scare the non believers with.




No, God does not need to scare humans ,he has the "Power to Subdue them",Phil. 3:21 notice "He is able to subdue ALL things to himself!" God can and will subdue ALL of humanity to himself ; Isaiah 45:23 God swears to subdue all of humanity, this IS universal salvation and it will be forced on humanity. In John 12:32Jesus " Draws all men to him", the term " Draw" here is from the Greek "Helkuo",  which means "To Drag!" Jesus has NEVER dragged ALL of humanity to  him, so this is a time to come. But they will use "Force", no free will illusion.


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## RWNJ (Nov 12, 2016)

ABikerSailor said:


> You know, since God is all powerful and all knowing, He doesn't really need anything to scare people into following Him.
> 
> However..................................Christians and those who profess that faith DO need hell, because otherwise there is nothing to scare the non believers with.


Ignorant fool. Christians do not follow Christ because of the threat of Hell. They follow and obey Him, because HE loved US enough to die for us.


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## Mickiel (Nov 12, 2016)

RWNJ said:


> ABikerSailor said:
> 
> 
> > You know, since God is all powerful and all knowing, He doesn't really need anything to scare people into following Him.
> ...




Is salvation for ignorant fools like us ,or are we too ignorant?


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## Mickiel (Nov 12, 2016)

The most insane thing human religion could think of was eternal hell punishing ; and this arcane madness was accepted ;

because the whole belief system of humanity is sick.


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## ABikerSailor (Nov 13, 2016)

RWNJ said:


> ABikerSailor said:
> 
> 
> > You know, since God is all powerful and all knowing, He doesn't really need anything to scare people into following Him.
> ...



So.............He loved us enough to die for us?  What was the reason He had to be crucified?  Oh wait.............I know..............it was to pay for our sins so that we wouldn't end up in hell.  Sorry, Christianity is based on fear of hell.


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## RWNJ (Nov 14, 2016)

ABikerSailor said:


> RWNJ said:
> 
> 
> > ABikerSailor said:
> ...


You could say the same about just about anything. The simple fact is that human behavior requires a system of punishment and reward. It's how parents raise responsible children. It's how law enforcement maintains order. If there was no punishment for bad behavior, no one would do what's right. It's human nature. Granted, the threat of Hell get's our attention. But it is a love of our Lord and Savior that keeps us coming back. It's no different than someone warning another that a tornado is coming, or some other disaster. You can heed the warning, or not. If you do, you are grateful to the person who warned you. If you ignore it, you die. I follow and obey Christ because I love Him. Period. You can believe whatever you like. It will never change the truth.


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## Mudda (Nov 16, 2016)

RWNJ said:


> ABikerSailor said:
> 
> 
> > RWNJ said:
> ...


So Jesus is like the arsonist who starts a fire then plays hero and warns everyone about the coming disaster? WOW! What a douchebag.


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## hobelim (Nov 16, 2016)

RWNJ said:


> You could say the same about just about anything. The simple fact is that human behavior requires a system of punishment and reward. It's how parents raise responsible children. It's how law enforcement maintains order. If there was no punishment for bad behavior, no one would do what's right. It's human nature. Granted, the threat of Hell get's our attention. But it is a love of our Lord and Savior that keeps us coming back. It's no different than someone warning another that a tornado is coming, or some other disaster. You can heed the warning, or not. If you do, you are grateful to the person who warned you. If you ignore it, you die. I follow and obey Christ because I love Him. Period. You can believe whatever you like. It will never change the truth.




Nonsense.

People can be trained and punished into believing that wrong is right and evil is good. People are punished all the time for doing what is right. You were mentally physically and emotionally abused as a child to pretend to believe in some fake counterfeit Jesus, taught to believe that rational thinking is of the devil,  and and shamed for being human.

You know nothing about Jesus. You are just confused and afraid,  already in Gehenna, pretending to believe in what is false because you have been terrified by demons about going to some imaginary hell.

Thats the truth.


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## Mudda (Nov 16, 2016)

hobelim said:


> RWNJ said:
> 
> 
> > You could say the same about just about anything. The simple fact is that human behavior requires a system of punishment and reward. It's how parents raise responsible children. It's how law enforcement maintains order. If there was no punishment for bad behavior, no one would do what's right. It's human nature. Granted, the threat of Hell get's our attention. But it is a love of our Lord and Savior that keeps us coming back. It's no different than someone warning another that a tornado is coming, or some other disaster. You can heed the warning, or not. If you do, you are grateful to the person who warned you. If you ignore it, you die. I follow and obey Christ because I love Him. Period. You can believe whatever you like. It will never change the truth.
> ...


God needs a hell to scare people like the hob.


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## hobelim (Nov 16, 2016)

Mudda said:


> hobelim said:
> 
> 
> > RWNJ said:
> ...




Wow.

Now I understand what is meant when it was written that a tongue of fire suddenly appeared that settled above each of their heads,,, like whoosh!


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## Mudda (Nov 16, 2016)

hobelim said:


> Mudda said:
> 
> 
> > hobelim said:
> ...


We noticed that you didn't disagree with my point, which is that it's really easy to scare simpletons with made up stuff.


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## hobelim (Nov 16, 2016)

Mudda said:


> We noticed that you didn't disagree with my point, which is that it's really easy to scare simpletons with made up stuff.




How many of you are there?


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## Mudda (Nov 16, 2016)

hobelim said:


> Mudda said:
> 
> 
> > We noticed that you didn't disagree with my point, which is that it's really easy to scare simpletons with made up stuff.
> ...


None of us are scared of an invisible being in another dimension for which there is no proof.


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## hobelim (Nov 16, 2016)

Mudda said:


> hobelim said:
> 
> 
> > Mudda said:
> ...




none of us? I didn't ask you if any of you were scared. I asked how many of you are there.

What name do you go by?


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## Mudda (Nov 17, 2016)

hobelim said:


> Mudda said:
> 
> 
> > hobelim said:
> ...


Mudda.


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## hobelim (Nov 17, 2016)

Mudda said:


> hobelim said:
> 
> 
> > Mudda said:
> ...




How many of you are there?


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## Mudda (Nov 17, 2016)

hobelim said:


> Mudda said:
> 
> 
> > hobelim said:
> ...


11, one for each dimension.


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## hobelim (Nov 17, 2016)

Mudda said:


> hobelim said:
> 
> 
> > Mudda said:
> ...



How old was he when y'all first entered the subject?


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## Mickiel (Mar 8, 2017)

People tend to forget the nonsense that Christianity has infused this world with

.Honest Questions and Answers about Hell


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## Likkmee (Mar 8, 2017)

He needed somewhere to put "Lady" GagGag and Mandingo


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## Likkmee (Mar 8, 2017)

Mickiel said:


> People tend to forget the nonsense that Christianity has infused this world with
> 
> .Honest Questions and Answers about Hell


But does this mean we have to believe in IsNtReal and cut the brims off all of our baseball caps and make quilts out of them in order to save MUHHHHHHHnee ?


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## Mickiel (Mar 8, 2017)

Why would God need a hell?


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## Likkmee (Mar 8, 2017)

Or perhaps a belief in Hell indicates craziness but " Da Hat Remaineth Da Same ?" More or less


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## Picaro (Mar 8, 2017)

RWNJ said:


> Christians are not suppose to judge another's salvation...  yes, we can discern and judge right from wrong, but not someone elses soul....?
> 
> Scripture tells us that you will know Christians by their love. If you do not have love, you do not have Christ in your life. Also, ones actions should reflect the life of Christ. Granted, everyone sins. But continual, willful sin is a sure sign that someone is not a Christian. So yes. We can judge.



Yes, they can, and they can get angry, they can defend themselves as needed, and they can set laws for their communities, hold courts civil and criminal, and create states for defense and governments to provide services, all that stuff; some just hate them and run around trying to tell them what they should be without knowing the first thing about their theology. The idea that Xians are supposed to be some sort of pacifist hippies and beggars and live out of dumpsters or something is a myth.

As for the thread, didn't read it, since it seems largely to be some crank doing what I said above, talking to himself mostly, I'll just post this link; hell or whatever one wants to call it serves as both a  location and as an allegory on several levels. Literalists will as always have problems with this, while fundamentalists will understand it.

Gehenna - Wikipedia


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## miketx (Mar 8, 2017)

Mickiel said:


> I have asked myself why a God would need a hell, ( and by hell I mean the Christian version of it). I mean here this great being of life and love , is said to have created a place of eternal misery? And something is just not right with that, because it makes no sense at all. But a lot of things in religion make no sense, but religion rains on humanity, getting all of our consciousness wet in one manner or another.
> 
> My view of God, and I don't know God, have never seen him or heard his voice; is a view that I know is already distorted by many things; but I view him as merciful, loving, kind, forgiving, longsuffering, all the things that this Christian hell is not. So I don't think this hell is God's creation, I think the Christians created it. I think this eternal hell punishing is what Christians would do with unbelievers, not God. I think its moreso what the Christians want.
> 
> Why would God make an eternal monument out of evil? For what? Why would such a being of great power of change, co-exist with misery forever? Why? I can't see it. I think something is seriously wrong with this myopic view of hell! The powers that exist which can seduce the consciousness of humanity into believing nonsense, is simply stunning.


You are going to hell.


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## Mickiel (Mar 8, 2017)

miketx said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > I have asked myself why a God would need a hell, ( and by hell I mean the Christian version of it). I mean here this great being of life and love , is said to have created a place of eternal misery? And something is just not right with that, because it makes no sense at all. But a lot of things in religion make no sense, but religion rains on humanity, getting all of our consciousness wet in one manner or another.
> ...




I am free of people threatening  me with hell ;   I have seen the freedom of  God's word.


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## RWNJ (Mar 8, 2017)

ABikerSailor said:


> You know, since God is all powerful and all knowing, He doesn't really need anything to scare people into following Him.
> 
> However..................................Christians and those who profess that faith DO need hell, because otherwise there is nothing to scare the non believers with.


There is right and wrong. There is also the reward for both. All have sinned. The wages of sin is death.  You have it all backwards. Anyone who goes to Hell goes by their own choice. God was gracious enough to give us a second chance. It's a free gift. It can't be bought at any price. But instead of accepting this precious gift you spit in the face of your Creator, and whine like a little baby.


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## RWNJ (Mar 8, 2017)

ABikerSailor said:


> RWNJ said:
> 
> 
> > ABikerSailor said:
> ...


Yeah. Just like a child obeys their parents so they will not get a spanking. Ever seen a child who was never disciplined? Same thing. If their was no punishment for doing wrong, everyone would just do whatever they want. People accept Christ because they have come to the realization that they are sinners and are sorry for it. Read the definition of repentance.

noun
1.
deep sorrow, compunction, or contrition for a past sin, wrongdoing, or the like.
2.
regret for any past action.

The reason people are atheists is because they are incapable of feeling any of that. They are too proud to humble themselves before their Creator and ask His forgiveness.


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## RWNJ (Mar 8, 2017)

hobelim said:


> RWNJ said:
> 
> 
> > You could say the same about just about anything. The simple fact is that human behavior requires a system of punishment and reward. It's how parents raise responsible children. It's how law enforcement maintains order. If there was no punishment for bad behavior, no one would do what's right. It's human nature. Granted, the threat of Hell get's our attention. But it is a love of our Lord and Savior that keeps us coming back. It's no different than someone warning another that a tornado is coming, or some other disaster. You can heed the warning, or not. If you do, you are grateful to the person who warned you. If you ignore it, you die. I follow and obey Christ because I love Him. Period. You can believe whatever you like. It will never change the truth.
> ...


That is only your opinion. I'll take it for what it's worth. That would be nothing. But know this. You have a meeting with your Creator in your future. What excuse will you give for rejecting Him? Just curious.


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## kjw47 (Mar 8, 2017)

Mickiel said:


> Why would God need a hell?




He doesn't. It is symbolism or the value of what one is losing by not serving God now.
As each new day dawns in Gods kingdom, those thrown into the lake of fire( eternal destruction) miss each new dawning day-eternally. It never stops


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## MarathonMike (Mar 8, 2017)

Religion needed a Hell, not God.


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## ABikerSailor (Mar 8, 2017)

MarathonMike said:


> Religion needed a Hell, not God.



Exactly.


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## Likkmee (Mar 8, 2017)

I need a pizza
 "I’d like to be a nice person and curse less and encourage people to grow rather than telling them they are idiots. I’m sorry – I tried, it’s just not in me."


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## Mickiel (Mar 9, 2017)

Hell is a Christian doctrine of destruction. It has crippled humanity.


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## Mickiel (Mar 9, 2017)

I like those who say religion needed a hell not God!


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## Mickiel (Mar 9, 2017)

Hell is a crutch for religions that cannot walk on their own.


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## Mickiel (Mar 10, 2017)

Why would such  a stupid doctrine get so much press?


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## Mickiel (Mar 11, 2017)

Why would the intelligence of God even try to co-exist in eternity with the Christian version of eternal hell?

The intelligence of Christians does not dictate any terms in heaven.


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## ding (Mar 11, 2017)

Hell is eternal separation from God.


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## featherlite (Mar 11, 2017)

Mickiel said:


> Hell is a crutch for religions that cannot walk on their own.



 Hell is only a crutch for those who arrogantly reject the Bible as Gods word, and believing goes beyond just recognizing the truth. To believe in Christ for salvation requires a transfer of allegiance. We stop worshiping ourselves, we forsake our sin, and we begin to worship God with our heart, soul, mind, and strength.


Its eternal darkness...separation from a loving God.
Cant remember where I found this but it states well the never ending myth ( by some) that God is a tyrant and treats people unjustly, just throwing the innocent away.
"Each sinner has a fully informed, acutely aware, and sensitive conscience which, in hell, becomes his own tormentor. This is the experience of torture in hell—a person fully aware of his or her sin with a relentlessly accusing conscience, without relief for even one moment. The guilt of sin will produce shame and everlasting self-hatred. The rich man knew that eternal punishment for a lifetime of sins is justified and deserved. That is why he never protested or questioned being in hell."


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## Mickiel (Mar 11, 2017)

featherlite said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > Hell is a crutch for religions that cannot walk on their own.
> ...




The belief that God would allow eternal suffering without relief is insane. Its also evidence that religion drives human beliefs insane. And Christianity is the master of ceremonies in that crazy world.


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## Dr Grump (Mar 11, 2017)

Hell was a recent concept invented by European Christians. I don't even think it is mentioned in the bible


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## Dr Grump (Mar 11, 2017)

featherlite said:


> [Q
> 
> Hell is only a crutch for those who arrogantly reject the Bible as Gods word, and believing goes beyond just recognizing the truth. To believe in Christ for salvation requires a transfer of allegiance. We stop worshiping ourselves, we forsake our sin, and we begin to worship God with our heart, soul, mind, and strength.
> 
> ...



God is a myth. There is no tangible or verifiable proof that a god exists. Only belief.


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## featherlite (Mar 11, 2017)

Mickiel said:


> featherlite said:
> 
> 
> > Mickiel said:
> ...



You are now speaking for God by stating "its insane for God to allow eternal eternal suffering"...and based on what.


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## Mickiel (Mar 11, 2017)

Dr Grump said:


> featherlite said:
> 
> 
> > [Q
> ...



Here's my belief;

Is God Real?


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## Dr Grump (Mar 11, 2017)

Mickiel said:


> Dr Grump said:
> 
> 
> > featherlite said:
> ...



I'd delete this post before they ban you. Linking to other sites is a big no no...


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## ding (Mar 11, 2017)

Dr Grump said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > Dr Grump said:
> ...


We should be so lucky.


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## ding (Mar 11, 2017)

Dr Grump said:


> featherlite said:
> 
> 
> > [Q
> ...


Sure there is.  He created the universe.  That is tangible evidence.


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## Mudda (Mar 11, 2017)

ding said:


> Dr Grump said:
> 
> 
> > featherlite said:
> ...


Where is this "He" who created your universe?


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## Dr Grump (Mar 11, 2017)

ding said:


> Sure there is.  He created the universe.  That is tangible evidence.



There is tangible evidence of the universe. No evidence that he or she created it.


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## ding (Mar 11, 2017)

Dr Grump said:


> ding said:
> 
> 
> > Sure there is.  He created the universe.  That is tangible evidence.
> ...


You want tangible evidence for tangible evidence?  huh?

Reason and experience tell us He did.


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## Dr Grump (Mar 11, 2017)

ding said:


> You want tangible evidence for tangible evidence?  huh?



They are two different 'tangibles'. One is without dispute. There is a universe. The other - that a god created it - is totally open to dispute. I'd go so far as to say that it is proven that no god created the universe. There is nothing but belief.


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## ding (Mar 11, 2017)

Dr Grump said:


> ding said:
> 
> 
> > You want tangible evidence for tangible evidence?  huh?
> ...


Have you ever created anything?  Because the act of creating would be intangible not tangible.  What you created would be tangible.


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## Mickiel (Mar 11, 2017)

featherlite said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > featherlite said:
> ...



I


featherlite said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > featherlite said:
> ...



I speak for me , myself and my cat.


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## Mickiel (Mar 11, 2017)

Dr Grump said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > Dr Grump said:
> ...



No. Its a gift for you.


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## Dr Grump (Mar 12, 2017)

ding said:


> Have you ever created anything?  Because the act of creating would be intangible not tangible.  What you created would be tangible.



Not it is not. It is absolutely tangible. If I create a salad, I can easily prove it and provide tangible evidence


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## ding (Mar 12, 2017)

Dr Grump said:


> ding said:
> 
> 
> > Have you ever created anything?  Because the act of creating would be intangible not tangible.  What you created would be tangible.
> ...


Maybe you should look up the definition of tangible and intangible.  Better yet, why don't you tell me the difference between the two.


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## Mudda (Mar 12, 2017)

ding said:


> Dr Grump said:
> 
> 
> > ding said:
> ...


In other words, he has nothing. As usual.


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## ding (Mar 12, 2017)

Dr Grump said:


> ding said:
> 
> 
> > Have you ever created anything?  Because the act of creating would be intangible not tangible.  What you created would be tangible.
> ...


Given your silence, I am guessing you did look up those definitions.


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## featherlite (Mar 12, 2017)

Mickiel said:


> featherlite said:
> 
> 
> > Mickiel said:
> ...



I was just curious...
lol @ your cat. They always have an opinion, I love 'em.


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## featherlite (Mar 12, 2017)

Dr Grump said:


> Hell was a recent concept invented by European Christians. I don't even think it is mentioned in the bible



It is...quite a few times.


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## Mudda (Mar 12, 2017)

God needs a hell because without threats, nobody would do anything he said.


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## Mickiel (Mar 12, 2017)

featherlite said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > featherlite said:
> ...




My cat is a trip , she does not believe in the Christian view of hell;  she reads it like this:

How many times is hell mentioned in the Bible?


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## ding (Mar 12, 2017)

Mickiel said:


> featherlite said:
> 
> 
> > Mickiel said:
> ...


If you ask a militant atheist they will tell you it is every other word.


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## Mudda (Mar 12, 2017)

God needs a hell because he gets his jollies scaring dimwits like dingbat.


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## Dr Grump (Mar 12, 2017)

ding said:


> Dr Grump said:
> 
> 
> > ding said:
> ...



I know what they both mean. My point stands. The fact you seem to want to dance in circles about 'meanings' suggests you know you're on a losing streak here. 

But let's play the game:

Intangible
not tangible; *incapable of being perceived by the sense of touch*, as incorporeal or immaterial things; impalpable.

I can't touch the lettuce as I make the salad? or the cucumber? or anything else that goes in the salad. I've even bolded the important part.


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## Dr Grump (Mar 12, 2017)

ding said:


> Given your silence, I am guessing you did look up those definitions.



I was silent because I was asleep. you do know I'm not in the US, right?


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## ding (Mar 12, 2017)

Dr Grump said:


> ding said:
> 
> 
> > Dr Grump said:
> ...


The lettuce would be tangible.  You making the salad is intangible.  

tangible: a thing that is perceptible by touch.

intangible: not made of physical substance; unable to be touched or grasped; not having physical presence.

The act of making a salad is not made of physical substance.  It is a freaking act.


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## ding (Mar 12, 2017)

Dr Grump said:


> ding said:
> 
> 
> > Dr Grump said:
> ...


So when you make a salad, is the salad the realization of your intention?


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## Dr Grump (Mar 12, 2017)

ding said:


> The lettuce would be tangible.  You making the salad is intangible.
> 
> tangible: a thing that is perceptible by touch.
> 
> ...



Well now you're talking about thoughts. And they are intangible for sure. How this means there is a god of some sort I fail to the see the connection. God is based on belief. Nothing else. I don't know if you are a Christian or not, but ponder this: 99 percent of the reason most people are Christians is because of where they are born. Ditto Hindus, Muslims and Sikhs. So it's not even a belief based on the religion itself, but where you are born. Think about that....


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## ding (Mar 12, 2017)

Dr Grump said:


> ding said:
> 
> 
> > The lettuce would be tangible.  You making the salad is intangible.
> ...


So when you make a salad, is the salad the realization of your intention?


----------



## Dr Grump (Mar 12, 2017)

ding said:


> So when you make a salad, is the salad the realization of your intention?



Yep, and you and I can talk about it. I can't talk to a god when that god itself is also intangible. The intangible aspect of something isn't proof that something exists. I'm sure people believe in the flying spaghetti monster or tooth fairy. I know of nobody who has seen those things. I know of plenty of people who have seen salads.


----------



## Luddly Neddite (Mar 12, 2017)

Vile ISIL burns their victims alive. 
As horrible as that is, its over pretty quickly. 

The christian god demands that you get on your knees to him or he will burn you forever. 

Why would any sane, feeling human being worship a monster like that?


----------



## ding (Mar 12, 2017)

Dr Grump said:


> ding said:
> 
> 
> > So when you make a salad, is the salad the realization of your intention?
> ...


Right but if I found something you created and didn't know you created it, I could learn things from what you created.  And since I have created things myself, I have insight into the process of creating things.  So I can use reason and experience to guide my investigation.

Ok, so you agree that when you create something, your creation is the realization of your intention.  That's good.  A lot of people won't be honest about that.  Thanks.  See, that was me using reason and experience to know that when you create something, what you create is the realization of your intention.  I know this because it is the same for me (i.e. experience).    

When you create something, do you do it in steps?  Or does it magically appear all at once?  For me, I create things in steps.  Think about building a house, I have to lay all the utilities first, then pour the foundation, then I can put up walls, then I can put up the roof, etc.  It is the same for you, right?


----------



## Dr Grump (Mar 12, 2017)

ding said:


> [
> Right but if I found something you created and didn't know you created it, I could learn things from what you created.  And since I have created things myself, I have insight into the process of creating things.  So I can use reason and experience to guide my investigation.
> 
> Ok, so you agree that when you create something, your creation is the realization of your intention.  That's good.  A lot of people won't be honest about that.  Thanks.  See, that was me using reason and experience to know that when you create something, what you create is the realization of your intention.  I know this because it is the same for me (i.e. experience).
> ...



All interesting stuff, but at the end of the day it doesn't get us any closer to our own POV. I don't believe in a god because there is no evidence at all that one exists. There is belief - which is fine - but that is all there is.


----------



## ding (Mar 12, 2017)

Dr Grump said:


> ding said:
> 
> 
> > [
> ...


I'm getting there.  These things take time.  So, I think we can assume that you agree that when you create something that you do it in steps.  Do your more complex creations require more steps and intelligence than your less complex creations?  For instance. let's say you are making a turkey dinner and a cell phone, ok?  Would it be fair to say that the cell phone would require greater intelligence to make than a turkey dinner would?


----------



## Dr Grump (Mar 12, 2017)

ding said:


> I'm getting there.  These things take time.  So, I think we can assume that you agree that when you create something that you do it in steps.  Do your more complex creations require more steps and intelligence than your less complex creations?  For instance. let's say you are making a turkey dinner and a cell phone, ok?  Would it be fair to say that the cell phone would require greater intelligence to make than a turkey dinner would?



I can see where you are going. And it doesn't prove anything other than you have a belief in something that is intangible and unproveable. That's fine. That is your right.


----------



## ding (Mar 12, 2017)

Dr Grump said:


> ding said:
> 
> 
> > I'm getting there.  These things take time.  So, I think we can assume that you agree that when you create something that you do it in steps.  Do your more complex creations require more steps and intelligence than your less complex creations?  For instance. let's say you are making a turkey dinner and a cell phone, ok?  Would it be fair to say that the cell phone would require greater intelligence to make than a turkey dinner would?
> ...


Humor me.  I'm almost to the point of discussion.  So assuming that you agree that I could learn something about your intelligence and number of steps you took to make your creation, do you think I could tell why you made it or what it's purpose was?


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## Dr Grump (Mar 12, 2017)

ding said:


> Humor me.  I'm almost to the point of discussion.  So assuming that you agree that I could learn something about your intelligence and number of steps you took to make your creation, do you think I could tell why you made it or what it's purpose was?



Yes, you should. 

But in the case of a god you would have to see him making it in the first place. Nobody has ever witnessed a god making anything. Ever. However, some believe that he or she did. But that is all it is. Belief.


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## ding (Mar 12, 2017)

Dr Grump said:


> ding said:
> 
> 
> > Humor me.  I'm almost to the point of discussion.  So assuming that you agree that I could learn something about your intelligence and number of steps you took to make your creation, do you think I could tell why you made it or what it's purpose was?
> ...


Why?  That's not how evidence is used.  No one saw Bob shoot Tom, but from the evidence it can be deduced that he did.  How is this any different?  I haven't made my case yet.  All I have done so far is to introduce the evidence.  The evidence is what He created.  Do you want to hear the case?


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## Dr Grump (Mar 12, 2017)

ding said:


> Why?  That's not how evidence is used.  No one saw Bob shoot Tom, but from the evidence it can be deduced that he did.  How is this any different?  I haven't made my case yet.  All I have done so far is to introduce the evidence.  The evidence is what He created.  Do you want to hear the case?



Not really. I've heard the evidence many times. Simply put, it is not believable. With Tom being shot at least there is evidence of him being shot. He has a bullet in him. 

But carry on if you wish...


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## ding (Mar 13, 2017)

Dr Grump said:


> ding said:
> 
> 
> > Why?  That's not how evidence is used.  No one saw Bob shoot Tom, but from the evidence it can be deduced that he did.  How is this any different?  I haven't made my case yet.  All I have done so far is to introduce the evidence.  The evidence is what He created.  Do you want to hear the case?
> ...


Well the universe exists so that is Tom being shot with a bullet in him.  But since your mind is already made up, it wouldn't be logical to continue.  The evidence is there, what you choose to do with it is up to you.


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## Dr Grump (Mar 13, 2017)

ding said:


> .The evidence is there, what you choose to do with it is up to you.



No there isn't.


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## ding (Mar 13, 2017)

Dr Grump said:


> ding said:
> 
> 
> > .The evidence is there, what you choose to do with it is up to you.
> ...


We just went through this.  There is evidence.  It is up to you to decide what it means.  What other evidence are you hoping to find?


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## Mudda (Mar 13, 2017)

ding said:


> Dr Grump said:
> 
> 
> > ding said:
> ...


dingbat sees a dead body on the pavement and instantly knows who did it because, well, the body is right there!


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## Dr Grump (Mar 13, 2017)

ding said:


> We just went through this.  There is evidence.  It is up to you to decide what it means.  What other evidence are you hoping to find?



No we haven't. Evidence that the universe exists is not evidence of a god. It is evidence of the universe existing. that is all.


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## Mickiel (Mar 13, 2017)

Is God real?

Is God Real?


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## ABikerSailor (Mar 13, 2017)

Mudda said:


> ding said:
> 
> 
> > Dr Grump said:
> ...



Dingbat fits them just perfect.  Thanks.


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## ding (Mar 13, 2017)

Dr Grump said:


> ding said:
> 
> 
> > We just went through this.  There is evidence.  It is up to you to decide what it means.  What other evidence are you hoping to find?
> ...


Sure it is.  You just don't accept it.


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## ding (Mar 13, 2017)

ABikerSailor said:


> Mudda said:
> 
> 
> > ding said:
> ...


Bless your heart.


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## Dr Grump (Mar 13, 2017)

ding said:


> Sure it is.  You just don't accept it.



No it is not. You have a belief. That is fine. Nothing wrong with it. But there is absolutely no verifiable evidence of a god existing.

You know, it's not lost on me that there is more evidence of climate change being caused by humans than there is of a god (of which there is absolutely NOTHING out there), yet you don't believe that is the case with global warming.


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## ding (Mar 13, 2017)

Dr Grump said:


> ding said:
> 
> 
> > Sure it is.  You just don't accept it.
> ...


Sure there is.  He created the universe.  The universe and everything in it and everything that has unfolded is not only proof of God's existence, it also contains clues as to why it exists and what its purpose is.  

We are in an interglacial cycle.  Our present temperature is less than the peak temperatures of the previous interglacial cycles.


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## Dr Grump (Mar 13, 2017)

ding said:


> Sure there is.  He created the universe.  The universe and everything in it and everything that has unfolded is not only proof of God's existence, it also contains clues as to why it exists and what its purpose is.
> 
> We are in an interglacial cycle.  Our present temperature is less than the peak temperatures of the previous interglacial cycles.



you can believe what you like. You can believe in the tooth fairy and santa claus if you want....


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## ding (Mar 13, 2017)

Dr Grump said:


> ding said:
> 
> 
> > Sure there is.  He created the universe.  The universe and everything in it and everything that has unfolded is not only proof of God's existence, it also contains clues as to why it exists and what its purpose is.
> ...


Thank you.  Same to you.


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## Mudda (Mar 14, 2017)

ding said:


> Dr Grump said:
> 
> 
> > ding said:
> ...


dingbat has been through this many times with others on this board, and he has yet to find anyone to agree with him on pretty much anything. He won't even respond to me anymore because I expose his nonsense every time and deep down he knows that I'm right but really, really, really wants to live in his own fantasy world.


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## Mickiel (Mar 15, 2017)

Mudda said:


> ding said:
> 
> 
> > Dr Grump said:
> ...




Hell lives in the human mind , its going to take a raquet wrench to get it out.


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## ding (Mar 15, 2017)

Mickiel said:


> Mudda said:
> 
> 
> > ding said:
> ...


Hell doesn't live anywhere.  Hell is being separated from God.  According to you, you are in hell now.


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## Mudda (Mar 15, 2017)

ding said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > Mudda said:
> ...


I think he makes this shit up as he goes along.


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## james bond (Mar 15, 2017)

Mickiel said:


> I have asked myself why a God would need a hell, ( and by hell I mean the Christian version of it). I mean here this great being of life and love , is said to have created a place of eternal misery? And something is just not right with that, because it makes no sense at all. But a lot of things in religion make no sense, but religion rains on humanity, getting all of our consciousness wet in one manner or another.
> 
> My view of God, and I don't know God, have never seen him or heard his voice; is a view that I know is already distorted by many things; but I view him as merciful, loving, kind, forgiving, longsuffering, all the things that this Christian hell is not. So I don't think this hell is God's creation, I think the Christians created it. I think this eternal hell punishing is what Christians would do with unbelievers, not God. I think its moreso what the Christians want.
> 
> Why would God make an eternal monument out of evil? For what? Why would such a being of great power of change, co-exist with misery forever? Why? I can't see it. I think something is seriously wrong with this myopic view of hell! The powers that exist which can seduce the consciousness of humanity into believing nonsense, is simply stunning.



This is an excellent question.  My thinking is there are different levels of hell since there are different degrees of sin.  While Dante's Inferno was a work of fiction, it still has ideas of hell that seem reasonable today.







I also present this as exhibit B.  It's an expressionist early work of art by Jackson Pollock.  It does appear to be people in flames, but it's not about hell.  He called it The Flame.






I believe it expresses the pain and suffering of woe.

Moreover, pain and suffering is a great persuader for God's existence.  I can't think of any better "proof" than that.  There are no atheists in the afterlife. 

If you want the traditional answer, then here it is.  It's what Jesus said about hell since he will be the judge.  It may not be a place where you feel the pain of being burned 24/7 for all eternity, but it will be an unpleasant place,

"He warned, “Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell” (Matthew 10:28).

Did He say this simply to scare us? The reality of hell should frighten us, because not one word in the Bible about hell would ever make you want to go there — not if you take it seriously. The Bible speaks of hell as a place of absolute loneliness and despair and hopelessness. It calls it a place of “darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth” (Matthew 22:13)."

Did Jesus ever say anything about hell? I don't believe in hell myself.

"Here are some of the passages that describe hell:

Matthew 25:41, “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.’”

Matthew 8:12, “But the subjects of the kingdom will be thrown outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”

2 Thessalonians 1:6–9, “God is just: He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels. He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might.”

Revelation 20:10, 15, “And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever. . . . Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.”

Romans 2:8, “But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger.”

Matthew 25:30, “And throw that worthless servant outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”

Hell, although we do not know exactly what it will look like, will be a place of unending suffering and torment from which there will be no escape. Therefore, now is the day of salvation. Now is the day for all to repent and believe the gospel. Now is the day for us to proclaim the good news that Christ has come to save sinners who trust in Him for forgiveness. Those who look to Christ now will be saved from the wrath to come (1 Thessalonians 1:9–10)."

What does hell look like? How hot is hell?


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## james bond (Mar 16, 2017)

Mickiel said:


> Mudda said:
> 
> 
> > ding said:
> ...



This is what I've been told in sci-fi and horror shows such as Rod Serling's Night Galllery.  It may be, but I had a dream last night.

This dream was about what the fire and flames mean of hell in the afterlife. It could mean that your body is burned into ash, so that only the spirit remains. That would fulfill the lake of fire.  In other words, the part of being tortured by burns 24/7 is stuff made up by the Roman Catholics of centuries ago.  However, what losing the body means was not revealed.  

The other part that is strange is atheists will be in the dark and other atheists will be telling you how to escape the darkness, but I'm not sure if the Bible mentions this.  The latter is what some people who had near-death experiences described as happening to them.  It wasn't a light they saw.


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## Mickiel (Mar 17, 2017)

james bond said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > Mudda said:
> ...





God does not need any of the hell's that humans have imagined.


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## ding (Mar 17, 2017)

Mickiel said:


> james bond said:
> 
> 
> > Mickiel said:
> ...


When did you become God's spokesman?  Did I miss His press release?


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## Mudda (Mar 17, 2017)

ding said:


> When did you become God's spokesman?  Did I miss His press release?


God told me to tell you to please


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## Mickiel (Mar 17, 2017)

ding said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > james bond said:
> ...



I do not speak for God , I speak only for myself.


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## Mudda (Mar 17, 2017)

Mickiel said:


> ding said:
> 
> 
> > Mickiel said:
> ...


Only ding speaks for god.


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## Mickiel (Mar 17, 2017)

I speak for me. I  would not dare claim to speak for God.


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## Mickiel (Mar 18, 2017)

You have to be careful with Christians , they will say anything when it comes to speaking for God. They have no fear of lying on God.


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## ding (Mar 18, 2017)

Mickiel said:


> You have to be careful with Christians , they will say anything when it comes to speaking for God. They have no fear of lying on God.


Aren't you done grinding your ax yet?


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## Mudda (Mar 18, 2017)

ding said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > You have to be careful with Christians , they will say anything when it comes to speaking for God. They have no fear of lying on God.
> ...


Not when there are still imbeciles like you around.


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## Mickiel (Mar 18, 2017)

Mudda said:


> ding said:
> 
> 
> > Mickiel said:
> ...




The thing is , he thinks he is more than he is. Christianity taught him that nature. Its a highly ingrained view of oneself. In Rom. 12:3 it teaches not to think of yourself more highly than you ought to. Christianity totally ignores that. They think they are the anointed of God. And you can't tell them anything different.


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## ding (Mar 18, 2017)

Mickiel said:


> Mudda said:
> 
> 
> > ding said:
> ...


You can obfuscate all you want.  At the end of the day you are not fooling anyone.  Your mission, which is the exact same mission as militant atheists is to subordinate religion.


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## Mickiel (Mar 18, 2017)

Why   would God " Need" a hell?


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## ding (Mar 18, 2017)

Mickiel said:


> Why   would God " Need" a hell?


I don't know what you think hell is but hell is being eternally separated from God.


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## featherlite (Mar 18, 2017)

Mickiel said:


> Mudda said:
> 
> 
> > ding said:
> ...


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## ABikerSailor (Mar 19, 2017)

ding said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > Why   would God " Need" a hell?
> ...



Cool.............if Hell is being eternally separated from God, then let me ask a simple question........................why is it that Christians who claim to be recruiting for God continually refuse those that are seeking Him?


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## ding (Mar 19, 2017)

ABikerSailor said:


> ding said:
> 
> 
> > Mickiel said:
> ...


I don't understand what you are asking? Refuse how?


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## Billo_Really (Mar 19, 2017)

Mickiel said:


> I have asked myself why a God would need a hell, ( and by hell I mean the Christian version of it). I mean here this great being of life and love , is said to have created a place of eternal misery? And something is just not right with that, because it makes no sense at all. But a lot of things in religion make no sense, but religion rains on humanity, getting all of our consciousness wet in one manner or another.
> 
> My view of God, and I don't know God, have never seen him or heard his voice; is a view that I know is already distorted by many things; but I view him as merciful, loving, kind, forgiving, longsuffering, all the things that this Christian hell is not. So I don't think this hell is God's creation, I think the Christians created it. I think this eternal hell punishing is what Christians would do with unbelievers, not God. I think its moreso what the Christians want.
> 
> Why would God make an eternal monument out of evil? For what? Why would such a being of great power of change, co-exist with misery forever? Why? I can't see it. I think something is seriously wrong with this myopic view of hell! The powers that exist which can seduce the consciousness of humanity into believing nonsense, is simply stunning.


For the same reason a good needs a bad.


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## Mudda (Mar 19, 2017)

ding said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > Why   would God " Need" a hell?
> ...


How do you know you can be separated from god? Got any proof?


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## ding (Mar 19, 2017)

Mudda said:


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What difference would it make to you?


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## Mudda (Mar 19, 2017)

ding said:


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Like my sig says "am willing to change my mind given real proof". Got any?


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## Mickiel (Mar 19, 2017)

Christians need a hell ,God does not need a hell , and he does not need Christians.


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## ding (Mar 19, 2017)

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No, you're not.


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## ding (Mar 19, 2017)

Mickiel said:


> Christians need a hell ,God does not need a hell , and he does not need Christians.


You don't speak for Christians.  You hate Christians.


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## Mudda (Mar 19, 2017)

ding said:


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I think you meant to say "no, I don't".


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## ding (Mar 19, 2017)

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No, I said what I meant.  No, you're not willing to change your mind given real proof.  I have already proven that.  You have all the proof you need.  What proof do you want?


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## Mudda (Mar 19, 2017)

ding said:


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Something that withstands scientific scrutiny. Go ahead, I'm still waiting.


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## ding (Mar 19, 2017)

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Give me a specific example.  Like what?  DNA?


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## Mudda (Mar 19, 2017)

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Anything that will withstand scientific scrutiny. DNA on its own withstands scientific scrutiny, but it'll depend on how you're trying to associate it with something else that likely won't.


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## ding (Mar 19, 2017)

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Can you give me an example?  Because the universe withstands scientific scrutiny and is evidence of God.


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## Mudda (Mar 19, 2017)

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That the universe is evidence of god does not withstand scientific scrutiny.


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## ding (Mar 20, 2017)

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Sure it does, and reason and experience too.  We've been through this before.


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## Mudda (Mar 20, 2017)

ding said:


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So what;s the scientific angle that ties the preferred invisible being to the universe? Now remember, your answer should pass scientific scrutiny, not "we've been through this before", that didn't pass.


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## ding (Mar 20, 2017)

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The laws of nature existed before space and time.


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## Mickiel (Mar 20, 2017)

Hell is a crutch that Christianity needs to help hold it's doctrinal base up.


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## Mudda (Mar 20, 2017)

ding said:


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No such thing has been scientifically proven. Nor does this statement tie in scientifically with the certainty of god existing.


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## ding (Mar 20, 2017)

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Sure it has and sure it does. Can you prove it isn't and doesn't? I'll wait.


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## Mudda (Mar 20, 2017)

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That's not how scientific scrutiny works. If it can't be proven scientifically, then you have nothing. Nobody needs to disprove anything. You are disproven when you can't meet the standard of scientific proof.

And nothing has been proven to be existing before the BB. Nor does anything of the BB tie in scientifically to a god.


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## ding (Mar 21, 2017)

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Not true.  You do not know how science works.  If they Eddington had not observed the shift of the star's position during the eclipse, Einstein's theory of realtivity would have been proven wrong.  So you see, dipstick, science does prove negatives.  Try again.  Can you prove the laws of nature did not exist before space and time?  I'll wait.


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## Mudda (Mar 21, 2017)

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That's like saying "can you prove that god doesn't exist?" God is not a scientific theory. Neither is name calling. So do you have a link to a science leaning site that proves that there was something before the BB? Or is that just a personal delusion?


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## ding (Mar 21, 2017)

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I didn't ask you to prove that God doesn't exist.  I asked you to prove the Laws of Nature were not in place before space and time.  Two different things.

Here is the link you asked for.


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## Mudda (Mar 21, 2017)

ding said:


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Then do you have a link to real scientists with real science explaining what they found and how they found it?


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## ding (Mar 21, 2017)

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Yes, all of their work is based on observations that every point in the universe is moving away from us and that the solution of the general theory of relativity shows that 14 billion years ago our universe started in a hot dense state “roughly a million billion billion times smaller than a single atom” and expanded and cooled.  Every single model uses this as their history matching.  Even the cyclic models which no one believes anymore because they violate the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics.  

My goodness.... you are one of those flat earthers you were ridiculing just a few minutes ago.  Thank you for proving my point that "They worship science but are the first to reject it when it suits their purposes."


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## ding (Mar 21, 2017)

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Before the Big Bang?

Origins: CERN: Ideas: The Big Bang | Exploratorium


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## ding (Mar 21, 2017)

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If the universe is expanding then it must have a beginning. If you follow it backwards in time, then any object must come to a boundary of space time. You cannot continue that history indefinitely. This is still true even if a universe has periods of contraction. It still has to have a beginning if expansion over weights the contraction. Physicists have been uncomfortable with the idea of a beginning since the work of Friedman which showed that the solutions of Einstein's equation showed that the universe had a beginning. The problem with a cyclical universe is with the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics. If it is a periodic universe then the entropy will increase with each cycle. The 2nd Law of Thermodynamics is a fundamental law of nature which tells us that entropy can only increase or stay the same. Entropy can never decrease. Which means that in a finite amount of time, a finite system will reach a maximum state of disorder which is called thermal equilibrium and then it will stay in that state. A cyclical universe cannot avoid this problem. The model by Steinhardt and Turok does not have this problem. They have cycles but the size of the cycle increases with time. So the next cycle is bigger than the first. So in this sense the total entropy of the universe still increases but the entropy you see in your limited region may not grow. This model does no contradict the inflation model because since each cycle is bigger than the previous cycle you still have expansion. And since you still have expansion, it still has to have a beginning because if you follow it backwards in time, then any object must come to a boundary of space time. The best explanation for how the universe began is the inflation model. It is possible for matter to have a beginning. In a closed universe the gravitational energy which is always negative exactly compensates the positive energy of matter. So the energy of a closed universe is always zero. So nothing prevents this universe from being spontaneously created. Because the net energy is always zero. The positive energy of matter is balanced by the negative energy of the gravity of that matter which is the space time curvature of that matter. There is no conservation law that prevents the formation of such a universe. In quantum mechanics if something is not forbidden by conservation laws, then it necessarily happens with some non-zero probability. So a closed universe can spontaneously appear - through the laws of quantum mechanics - out of nothing. And in fact there is an elegant mathematical description which describes this process and shows that a tiny closed universe having very high energy can spontaneously pop into existence and immediately start to expand and cool. In this description, the same laws that describe the evolution of the universe also describe the appearance of the universe which means that the laws were in place before the universe itself.


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## Mudda (Mar 21, 2017)

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I asked "do you have a link to real scientists with real science explaining what they found and how they found it". You said "yes" then didn't provide one. Want to try again?


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## Mudda (Mar 21, 2017)

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Did you even read the link? It doesn't say what was before but merely poses the question. to quote your link, "Whatever physics preceded the Big Bang left the Universe in this state."

So that's strike one.


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## Mudda (Mar 21, 2017)

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To quote you "If the universe is expanding then it must have a beginning." That's what's known as a guess. Even wishful thinking. But not fact.


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## Mickiel (Mar 21, 2017)

Science Confirms the Bible - RationalWiki


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## Mickiel (Mar 21, 2017)

Mickiel said:


> Science Confirms the Bible - RationalWiki



Science was once a child of the church.


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## Mickiel (Mar 21, 2017)

Mickiel said:


> Mickiel said:
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> > Science Confirms the Bible - RationalWiki
> ...



Summary of Scientific Evidence for Creation (Part I & II) | The Institute for Creation Research


Is God Real?


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## ding (Mar 21, 2017)

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No. That is what is known as Einstein's general theory of relativity.  The solutions to his equations show that the universe started in a dense hot state and then expanded and cooled.  The red shift confirms this solution. The 2nd law of thermodynamicss confirms the universe had a beginning too. Inflation theory tells us how it is possible for matter and energy to pop into existence according to the laws of quantum mechanics without violating the laws of conservation but you are too ignorant and stubborn to accept it.


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## Mudda (Mar 21, 2017)

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Show me links to scientific sites or papers that prove that there was nothing before the BB. All you have are theories, and you even keep using the word over and over again.


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## ABikerSailor (Mar 21, 2017)

Ya know, it's kinda cute to watch DINGbat try to explain physics by using religion.


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## Mickiel (Mar 21, 2017)

Christians need hell, not God.


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## ding (Mar 21, 2017)

ABikerSailor said:


> Ya know, it's kinda cute to watch DINGbat try to explain physics by using religion.


You got that backwards.  But considering I have forgotten more than you will ever know about science, I'll cut you some slack.

For instance did you know that you were present when space and time were created?  You were literally there.  We all were.  Every soul who has ever walked this planet was present for the birth of space and time.  

But the really interesting thing is that your comment came right after I posted a comment about general relativity and its role in our understanding how the universe evolved.  I can't imagine the idiocracy of someone who supposedly worships science like a god, shitting all over science.


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## Mickiel (Mar 21, 2017)

Mickiel said:


> Christians need hell, not God.[/QUOTE
> 
> 
> Christians needs to see humanity suffer and hurt forever; they train  their people. to want that.


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## MuslimHeaven (Mar 22, 2017)

I thought it was a place for the infidels.


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## Mickiel (Mar 22, 2017)

MuslimHeaven said:


> I thought it was a place for the infidels.




You thought like lit. Don't believe the  error slide of religion. Hell is their garbage can for people they don't like.


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## Mickiel (Mar 23, 2017)

Why would a God need to threaten his people?


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## ding (Mar 24, 2017)

Mickiel said:


> Why would a God need to threaten his people?


Don't you have a thread that is based on your belief that God is hiding from us because of us?  Can you please get your lies straight?


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## Mudda (Mar 24, 2017)

ding said:


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> ...


That sounds about right, god is hiding from us because he's ashamed of his creation and is trying to pawn it off on his buddy satan.


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## ding (Mar 24, 2017)

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Well you are the expert on shame.


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## Mudda (Mar 24, 2017)

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So you agree with me. Good for you.


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## ding (Mar 24, 2017)

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Not exactly.


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## Mudda (Mar 24, 2017)

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That sounds like a "somewhat". Ill take it.


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## ding (Mar 24, 2017)

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Not exactly.


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## Mickiel (Mar 25, 2017)

Why would a sane mind create an insane punishment?


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## Mickiel (Mar 26, 2017)

Mickiel said:


> Why would a sane mind create an insane punishment?





Eternal hell teaching is handicapped  and too demonic to be of God. It smells human.


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## ding (Mar 26, 2017)

Mickiel said:


> Why would a sane mind create an insane punishment?


Why would a sane mind reject the spirit of God within them?


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## Mudda (Mar 26, 2017)

ding said:


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> > Why would a sane mind create an insane punishment?
> ...


The god of the bible is a figment of your imagination, and you haven't proven otherwise.


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## ding (Mar 26, 2017)

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You don't sound like much of an agnostic.


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## Mudda (Mar 26, 2017)

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You still haven't proved anything.


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## hobelim (Mar 26, 2017)

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I think it would be more accurate to say that how he interprets what is written about God in the Bible is a figment of his unrestrained imagination that requires the suspension of disbelief, rejection of all critical thinking, and the embrace or archaic superstitious lore that makes no rational sense, contradicts both logic and reality, and renders believers completely insane or functionally incapacitated at best.


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## ding (Mar 26, 2017)

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What do I need to prove?  Your an agnostic.  You don't believe either way, lol.  I have nothing to prove because you can't disprove what I believe, lol.  You are an agnostic.  God loves logic.  He created it.


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## Mudda (Mar 27, 2017)

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You're even unclear on the concept of agnosticism. If anyone ever comes up with real proof either way, I'm willing to change my mind. Can't be any fairer than that. Everyone else, like you, has already made up their mind with zero real proof. So if god loves logic, he sure don't love you.


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## ding (Mar 27, 2017)

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No. You don't accept the proof I have. You have zero proof God doesn't exist and you believe that God may exist.


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## Mudda (Mar 27, 2017)

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You don't have any real science-backed proof for your god. And yes, he may still exist, despite your total lack of proof.


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## ding (Mar 27, 2017)

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Yes. We have gone over it a dozen times. No need to do so again. I have already converted you from an atheist to an agnostic. My work is done.


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## Mudda (Mar 27, 2017)

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You were calling me an atheist when I was already an agnostic. And now you understand what the word means. Good for you.


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## ding (Mar 27, 2017)

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Are you happy I converted you?  You don't need to thank me.


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## Mudda (Mar 27, 2017)

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I'm just glad that you stopped calling me an atheist. Thanks for that.


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## TyroneSlothrop (Mar 27, 2017)

"If you want to get to Heaven you have to raise a little Hell...and if you want to know the "Secret" ...you have to Promise not to tell"


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## hobelim (Mar 27, 2017)

TyroneSlothrop said:


> "If you want to get to Heaven you have to raise a little Hell...and if you want to know the "Secret" ...you have to Promise not to tell"


 

 If you want to get some water, you have to get it from the well?


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## ABikerSailor (Mar 27, 2017)

A most excellent song.....................


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## ding (Mar 27, 2017)

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I'm just glad you stopped being an atheist.  Praise the Lord.


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## Mudda (Mar 27, 2017)

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Why, you think the lord had something to do with my wanting proof for its existence?


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## ding (Mar 27, 2017)

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No.   I think we were made to praise and glorify Him.


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## Mudda (Mar 28, 2017)

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Your god must be a massive douchebag if what he wanted were beings to faun all over him.


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## ding (Mar 28, 2017)

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You think that bothers me, but it doesn't.  What other names can you think to call God?  Surely, you can do better than massive douchebag, right?


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## Mudda (Mar 28, 2017)

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Not trying to offend, but the whole concept of the god of the bible is laughable and absurd.


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## hobelim (Mar 28, 2017)

Mudda said:


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I see it a little differently.

Ding must be a massive douchebag if he thinks a holy God would want human beings to faun all over him..

If a person believes in a douchebag god then that image established in the minds as the highest ideal consequently turns that believer into a douchebag..

If people believe that God is a capricious and  puerile petty tyrant then they become capricious and puerile petty tyrants.

If people believe that Jesus was a pusillanimous asexual self-loathing servant to other people and established that image in their minds as the highest ideal then believers would tend to become pusillanimous asexual self-loathing servants to other people.


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## ding (Mar 28, 2017)

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Don't be silly.  Of course that is what you are trying to do.  You mock what you do not understand.


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## ding (Mar 28, 2017)

hobelim said:


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Personally I find you a massive douchebag period.  I have no qualifiers.  You strike me as one of those people who like to hear the sound of their own voice.


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## Mudda (Mar 28, 2017)

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I understand that your invisible friend wants you to kiss his ass.


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## ding (Mar 28, 2017)

hobelim said:


> If a person believes in a douchebag god then that image established in the minds as the highest ideal consequently turns that believer into a douchebag..



I don't know anyone who believes in a douchebag god.  That would be your erroneous conclusion based upon your erroneous interpretation.  You don't have the foggiest idea of what worship means anymore than you know what meek means.  



hobelim said:


> If people believe that God is a capricious and puerile petty tyrant then they become capricious and puerile petty tyrants.



I don't know anyone who believes that God is a capricious and puerile petty tyrant.  That would be your erroneous conclusion.  The reality is that Jesus did not want us to love Him for what He could do for us, He wanted us to love Him for who He is.  



hobelim said:


> If people believe that Jesus was a pusillanimous asexual self-loathing servant to other people and established that image in their minds as the highest ideal then believers would tend to become pusillanimous asexual self-loathing servants to other people.


Pusillanimous, huh?  I'd say He showed quite a bit of courage to do what He did.  

Self-loathing servant?  Not sure where you get this idea from either.  I don't know anyone who believes that.  He condescended to us in a way you are unfamiliar with.


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## ding (Mar 28, 2017)

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That would be your erroneous conclusion.


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## Mudda (Mar 28, 2017)

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Worship you=kiss your ass.


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## ding (Mar 28, 2017)

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Worshiping God means to treat everything you do like it was a sacred act.  I doubt you have any concept of what this means.


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## Mudda (Mar 28, 2017)

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Exactly, you're kissing his ass for everything you do because he's you're invisible hero.


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## ding (Mar 28, 2017)

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Thank you for proving me correct.


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## Mudda (Mar 29, 2017)

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For fawning over someone you can't prove no matter how hard you try?


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## ding (Mar 29, 2017)

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No.  For proving that you have no concept of what worship means.


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## Mudda (Mar 29, 2017)

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So what's it like to fawn over someone you can't prove no matter how hard you try?


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## ding (Mar 29, 2017)

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But you can't disprove Him no matter how hard you try, right?  Think of how you fawn over yourself.


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## Mudda (Mar 29, 2017)

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Science and real life don't work on not being able to disprove something. It's the last grasp at the straw by wishful thinkers.


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## ding (Mar 29, 2017)

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Actually science does work that way.  If Eddington’s experiment had NOT confirmed that light rays from distant stars were deflected by the gravity of the sun in just the amount Einstein had predicted in his theory of gravity, then Einstein's Theory of General Relativity would have been proven wrong.  

Science proves the existence of laws, theories, principles, et al or it disproves the existence of laws, theories, principles, et al.  Science is never conclusive because laws, theories, principles, et al are always subject to revision if new data comes along - up to and including refuting the laws, theories, principles, et al.  Some people have said that science can't disprove the existence of something.  I say to those people, if science can't really disprove the existence of something, then science can't really prove the existence of something either.  So, we are left with having to accept that practically speaking, science does prove and disprove the existence of laws, theories, principles, et al  or that everything is taken on faith as nothing can really be proven.


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## Mudda (Mar 29, 2017)

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You have no scientific theory about your god to disprove. Come up with one and we'll see.


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## ding (Mar 29, 2017)

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Do you expect the supernatural to be scientifically examined?


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## Mudda (Mar 29, 2017)

ding said:


> Do you expect the supernatural to be scientifically examined?


It has been, they found only scammers.


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## ding (Mar 29, 2017)

Mudda said:


> ding said:
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> > Do you expect the supernatural to be scientifically examined?
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Thank you for proving my point. There can be no direct examination of the supernatural. The only question would be why you keep asking for it.


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## Mudda (Mar 29, 2017)

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So you admit that there's no possible scientific proof for your invisible friend. Good for you. My job is done here.


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## ding (Mar 29, 2017)

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No. that's not what I wrote. Your logic is flawed.  I wouldn't expect a Brit Boy to be able to follow it.


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## Mudda (Mar 30, 2017)

Hell is god's furnace that keeps heaven warm. And everyone knows that the furnace is in the basement.


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## ding (Mar 30, 2017)

Mudda said:


> Hell is god's furnace that keeps heaven warm. And everyone knows that the furnace is in the basement.


You don't believe in hell.


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## Mudda (Mar 30, 2017)

ding said:


> Mudda said:
> 
> 
> > Hell is god's furnace that keeps heaven warm. And everyone knows that the furnace is in the basement.
> ...


And that cooks your biscuits.


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## ding (Mar 30, 2017)

Mudda said:


> ding said:
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No. it proves you don't believe your argument.


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## Mudda (Mar 31, 2017)

ding said:


> Mudda said:
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Just playing along to what the bible says, didn't you get that?


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## ding (Mar 31, 2017)

Mudda said:


> ding said:
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No.  What I get is that you, an avowed agnostic who professes to not know either way, is arguing that you do know.


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## Mudda (Mar 31, 2017)

ding said:


> Mudda said:
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Well of course you misinterpret what I say, that's only par for the course.


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## ding (Mar 31, 2017)

Mudda said:


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No, I'm not misinterpreting what you said.  I am explaining to you that you are arguing that you do know when your belief is that you don't know.


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## Mudda (Mar 31, 2017)

ding said:


> No, I'm not misinterpreting what you said.  I am explaining to you that you are arguing that you do know when your belief is that you don't know.


You can explain that last sentence to me.


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## ding (Mar 31, 2017)

Mudda said:


> ding said:
> 
> 
> > No, I'm not misinterpreting what you said.  I am explaining to you that you are arguing that you do know when your belief is that you don't know.
> ...


Sure.  You are an agnostic.  By definition, you don't know.  So when I explain the evidence for God to you, your rejection of it is an admission that you do know.


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## Mudda (Mar 31, 2017)

ding said:


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I go by the science. You haven't shown ANY.


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## ABikerSailor (Mar 31, 2017)

You know Mudda, the only reason I'm still reading this thread is because of the way you keep tearing DINGbat apart.

It's wonderfully funny to watch.


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## ding (Mar 31, 2017)

ABikerSailor said:


> You know Mudda, the only reason I'm still reading this thread is because of the way you keep tearing DINGbat apart.
> 
> It's wonderfully funny to watch.


I couldn't be happier for you.  Your vicarious participation speaks volumes.


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## ding (Mar 31, 2017)

Mudda said:


> ding said:
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Really?  Can you explain how you got by the science?


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## Mudda (Mar 31, 2017)

ding said:


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It was easy, you had none.


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## ding (Mar 31, 2017)

Mudda said:


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So you don't believe that beings that know and create arose through the laws of nature?   That's pretty funny coming from someone who believes in life forces and souls.  Unless you believe that beings that know and create arose through the laws of nature then you must believe they arose through a special creative act of God.  Are you a creationist?


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## Mudda (Mar 31, 2017)

ding said:


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What does beings arising through the laws of nature have to do with a god? And no, not through an act of god, but through an act of aliens, most likely.


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## ding (Mar 31, 2017)

Mudda said:


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That intelligence creates intelligence because it is the nature of intelligence to create intelligence.  That beings that know and create were pre-ordained by the laws of nature which existed before time and space.  That you were present at the time space and time were created and all matter in the universe is entangled.  That cause and effect tell us that there is reason and purpose.  That the evolution of matter tells us that the purpose of the universe is to create consciousness thus the universe knows itself and becomes self aware thus proving what I said that intelligence creates intelligence because it is the nature of intelligence to create intelligence.


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## Mudda (Mar 31, 2017)

ding said:


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Nice personal opinion. Can you back that up with science?


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## ding (Mar 31, 2017)

Mudda said:


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Science backs up everything I just wrote.  You are rejecting science despite your claim that you are looking for scientific proof.  So not only do you violate the definition of agnosticism by denying what you claim you don't know, you are doing so against overwhelming scientific evidence.  Do you have anything at all besides personal preference because you sure as hell have not mad a scientific argument.


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## Mudda (Apr 1, 2017)

ding said:


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If science backs up what you said, provide links to scientific sites that explain scientifically your position. Otherwise, you'll still have nothing.


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## ding (Apr 1, 2017)

Mudda said:


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Can you tell me which part you specifically are challenging?  Is it that the universe had a beginning?  Is it that the matter that makes up who you are was created when space and time were created?  Is this what you re disputing?


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## Mudda (Apr 1, 2017)

ding said:


> Mudda said:
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I'm challenging your whole statement for lack of scientific back-up.


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## ding (Apr 1, 2017)

Mudda said:


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The second law of thermodynamics proves the universe had a beginning.  Otherwise, we would be in thermal equilibrium.

So does Einstein's theory of general relativity.

So does the red shift.

So does background radiation.

The only real question is how big of an idiot do you want to be?  

Origins: CERN: Ideas: The Big Bang | Exploratorium


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## Mudda (Apr 1, 2017)

ding said:


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We went through this already. You have nothing. Your link doesn't prove that god made the universe. CERN never claimed that anyways.


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## ding (Apr 1, 2017)

Mudda said:


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I know it flusters you to believe that the universe had a beginning like the Bible tells us, but you are going to have to face the facts that science tells us that it did.


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## Mudda (Apr 1, 2017)

ding said:


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We both know that you never proved anything. Sober up already.


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## ding (Apr 1, 2017)

Mudda said:


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lol.  If the universe is expanding then it must have a beginning. If you follow it backwards in time, then any object must come to a boundary of space time. You cannot continue that history indefinitely. This is still true even if a universe has periods of contraction. It still has to have a beginning if expansion over weights the contraction. Physicists have been uncomfortable with the idea of a beginning since the work of Friedman which showed that the solutions of Einstein's equation showed that the universe had a beginning. The problem with a cyclical universe is with the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics. If it is a periodic universe then the entropy will increase with each cycle. The 2nd Law of Thermodynamics is a fundamental law of nature which tells us that entropy can only increase or stay the same. Entropy can never decrease. Which means that in a finite amount of time, a finite system will reach a maximum state of disorder which is called thermal equilibrium and then it will stay in that state. A cyclical universe cannot avoid this problem. The model by Steinhardt and Turok does not have this problem. They have cycles but the size of the cycle increases with time. So the next cycle is bigger than the first. So in this sense the total entropy of the universe still increases but the entropy you see in your limited region may not grow. This model does no contradict the inflation model because since each cycle is bigger than the previous cycle you still have expansion. And since you still have expansion, it still has to have a beginning because if you follow it backwards in time, then any object must come to a boundary of space time. The best explanation for how the universe began is the inflation model. It is possible for matter to have a beginning. In a closed universe the gravitational energy which is always negative exactly compensates the positive energy of matter. So the energy of a closed universe is always zero. So nothing prevents this universe from being spontaneously created. Because the net energy is always zero. The positive energy of matter is balanced by the negative energy of the gravity of that matter which is the space time curvature of that matter. There is no conservation law that prevents the formation of such a universe. In quantum mechanics if something is not forbidden by conservation laws, then it necessarily happens with some non-zero probability. So a closed universe can spontaneously appear - through the laws of quantum mechanics - out of nothing. And in fact there is an elegant mathematical description which describes this process and shows that a tiny closed universe having very high energy can spontaneously pop into existence and immediately start to expand and cool. In this description, the same laws that describe the evolution of the universe also describe the appearance of the universe which means that the laws were in place before the universe itself.


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## Mudda (Apr 1, 2017)

ding said:


> Mudda said:
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You don't prove anything by talking, you prove what you say by backing it up with links to real science that actually back up exactly what you say. But since we've been over this already several times, then we must conclude that you know you have nothing so you don't even try to link anything properly. Time to give up brah.


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## ding (Apr 1, 2017)

Mudda said:


> ding said:
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I just gave you real science.

According to most astrophysicists, all the matter found in the universe today -- including the matter in people, plants, animals, the earth, stars, and galaxies -- was created at the very first moment of time, thought to be about 13 billion years ago.

Origins: CERN: Ideas: The Big Bang | Exploratorium


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## Mudda (Apr 1, 2017)

ding said:


> Mudda said:
> 
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But you that doesn't tie in with you trying to prove a god. Where's the beef?


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## ding (Apr 2, 2017)

Mudda said:


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Sure it does.  The universe requires a first cause which must be eternal and unchanging.  The laws of nature pre-destined that beings that know and create would eventually arise.  What don't you understand?


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## Mudda (Apr 2, 2017)

ding said:


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You just spew stuff out willy-nilly without ANY real scientific proof. Fucking clown.


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## ding (Apr 2, 2017)

Mudda said:


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Don't get upset, friend.  Just sit back and light another joint.  The same laws that describe the evolution of the universe also describe the appearance of the universe.  The same laws of nature pre-destined that beings that know and create would eventually arise.


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## Mudda (Apr 2, 2017)

ding said:


> Mudda said:
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I'll forget for a second that you just spewed out more clown farts, so then tell us, what was before the Big Bang?


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## ding (Apr 2, 2017)

Mudda said:


> ding said:
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The laws of nature which pre-destined that beings that know and create would eventually arise.  Thus the universe becomes self aware.


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## Mudda (Apr 2, 2017)

ding said:


> Mudda said:
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Someone open an internet window, the clown farts are piling up!!!

The question was: what was before the Big Bang?


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## ding (Apr 2, 2017)

Mudda said:


> ding said:
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I told you what was before the big bang.  The same laws that describe the evolution of the universe also describe the appearance of the universe.  The same laws of nature which pre-destined that beings that know and create would eventually arise.


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## Mudda (Apr 2, 2017)

ding said:


> Mudda said:
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So there was a big void or matter or what?


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## ding (Apr 2, 2017)

Mudda said:


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No matter.  Just a curious void which held potential as the laws of nature were already in place.


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## Mudda (Apr 2, 2017)

ding said:


> Mudda said:
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You just spew stuff out willy-nilly without ANY real scientific proof. Fucking clown.


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## ding (Apr 2, 2017)

Mudda said:


> ding said:
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Intelligence creates intelligence because it is the nature of intelligence to create intelligence. Beings that know and create were pre-ordained by the laws of nature which existed before time and space. You were present at the time space and time were created.  All matter in the universe is entangled. Cause and effect tell us that there is reason and purpose. The evolution of matter tells us that the purpose of the universe is to create consciousness.  The universe has become self aware thus proving that intelligence created intelligence.


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## Mudda (Apr 2, 2017)

ding said:


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More clown farts that you don't back up. I'm bored.


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## ding (Apr 2, 2017)

Mudda said:


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How many times have you gotten high this morning?


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## Mudda (Apr 2, 2017)

ding said:


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The topic is why would god even need a hell? Because he's a douchebag, that's why.


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## ding (Apr 2, 2017)

Mudda said:


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He doesn't need a hell.  Hell is nothing more than being eternally separated from God.  Why are you blaming God for giving you what you want?


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## Mudda (Apr 2, 2017)

ding said:


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Where did you hear that "Hell is nothing more than being eternally separated from God."?


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## ding (Apr 2, 2017)

Mudda said:


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This is at least the 4th time I have explained this to you.


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## Mudda (Apr 2, 2017)

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So you don't remember where you heard that?


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## ding (Apr 2, 2017)

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Why does it matter?


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## Mudda (Apr 2, 2017)

ding said:


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It's ok if you're too embarrassed to say.


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## ding (Apr 2, 2017)

Mudda said:


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I'm happy for you to see it that way.  Just as you are happy for me to believe that you are a chronic dope smoker, right?


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## Mudda (Apr 2, 2017)

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I'm not responsible for what you believe.


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## ding (Apr 2, 2017)

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But you are responsible for what you do.  Self medicating included.


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## Mudda (Apr 2, 2017)

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if that's what you want to believe, go for it, it'll make you happy.


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## ding (Apr 2, 2017)

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It fits the data.


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## Mudda (Apr 2, 2017)

ding said:


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The robot from Star Trek?


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## ding (Apr 2, 2017)

Mudda said:


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If you know who that is then you are too old to be a chronic pot smoker.


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## Mudda (Apr 2, 2017)

God needs a hell to scare clowns like dingbat.


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## ding (Apr 2, 2017)

Mudda said:


> God needs a hell to scare clowns like dingbat.


I don't feel very scared.  I feel at peace.


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## Mudda (Apr 2, 2017)

ding said:


> Mudda said:
> 
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> > God needs a hell to scare clowns like dingbat.
> ...


"I don't feel *very* scared", so you feel somewhat scared. Thought so.


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## ding (Apr 2, 2017)

Mudda said:


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If that is how you want to see it, go for it.


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## Mudda (Apr 2, 2017)

ding said:


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It's how it is. Man up.


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## ding (Apr 2, 2017)

Mudda said:


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Maybe you should smoke another joint.


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## Mudda (Apr 2, 2017)

ding said:


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You're clearly jealous.


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## ding (Apr 2, 2017)

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Yes, because being a chronic pot head is such a wonderful life.


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## Mudda (Apr 2, 2017)

ding said:


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More proof that you live in a fantasy world, I never said any such thing, in fact, all I said was that weed is god's herb. That's it. You fantasized about all the rest. What a fucking douchebag.


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## ding (Apr 2, 2017)

Mudda said:


> ding said:
> 
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Are you ashamed of being a chronic pot head?


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## Mudda (Apr 2, 2017)

ding said:


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Why? Is there something to be ashamed of if I were?


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## ding (Apr 2, 2017)

Mudda said:


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You mean besides the stupidity of being a chronic pot smoker?


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## Mudda (Apr 2, 2017)

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You know this how?


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## ding (Apr 2, 2017)

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How does marijuana use affect school, work, and social life?

Heavy pot use can permanently damage short-term memory, study shows


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## ABikerSailor (Apr 3, 2017)

DINGbat apparently does not know what he speaks of.


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## Mudda (Apr 3, 2017)

ding said:


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WoW! 2 actual links that seem ok!!! Now remember this post of yours when you're arguing your theories about god and the universe. This is how you prove something, with links to actual relevant studies by real doctors/scientists.

Although you never did prove that I am a chronic user, or even an occasional user. But kudos for finding what appears to be real links to back up your point.


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## ding (Apr 3, 2017)

Mudda said:


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I never heard you say you weren't.


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## Mudda (Apr 3, 2017)

ding said:


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And I never said that I was.


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## ding (Apr 3, 2017)

Mudda said:


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Then I will take it on faith that you are.


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## Mudda (Apr 3, 2017)

ding said:


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Nothing wrong with burning a little herb. It would loosen up your too tight sphincter and make you less of an


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## RWNJ (Apr 3, 2017)

ABikerSailor said:


> DINGbat apparently does not know what he speaks of.


Speaking of ding bats, why don't you use quote reply, so it doesn't look like you are talking to yourself?


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## ding (Apr 3, 2017)

Mudda said:


> ding said:
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Laughing leads to crying.


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## Mudda (Apr 3, 2017)

ding said:


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Have you EVER smoked weed?


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## ding (Apr 3, 2017)

Mudda said:


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Why does that matter?  Will my answer make you smoke less?


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## Mudda (Apr 3, 2017)

ding said:


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I asked first.


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## ding (Apr 3, 2017)

Mudda said:


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Why does it matter?


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## Mudda (Apr 3, 2017)

ding said:


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Why are you ashamed to answer?


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## ding (Apr 3, 2017)

Mudda said:


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I'm not.  I want to know why you think it matters.


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## Mudda (Apr 3, 2017)

ding said:


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Didn't say it did. Now answer, have you ever smoked weed?


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## ding (Apr 3, 2017)

Mudda said:


> ding said:
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Then it isn't a soup question.  Ask a soup question.


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## Mudda (Apr 4, 2017)

ding said:


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Have you ever smoked weed and then felt like eating some soup?


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## ding (Apr 4, 2017)

Mudda said:


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That's not a soup question either.


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## Mudda (Apr 4, 2017)

ding said:


> Mudda said:
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Just admit it, you've smoked weed but couldn't handle it. No worries, it happens.


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## ding (Apr 4, 2017)

Mudda said:


> ding said:
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Why does it matter to you?


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## Mudda (Apr 4, 2017)

ding said:


> Mudda said:
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It's just a question. And you seem like such an expert on the subject, so I'm sure you've smoked tons in your day. Now you probably just pound back the alcohol, all engineers are drunks.


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## ding (Apr 4, 2017)

Mudda said:


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Not really. I might have a margarita or a beer occasionally. One does not need to be an expert to know that chronic pot smoking is a problem.


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## Mickiel (Apr 4, 2017)

I still can't figure why a God would even need a hell?


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## ding (Apr 5, 2017)

Mickiel said:


> I still can't figure why a God would even need a hell?


Can you figure out why God would need space and time to exist?


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## ABikerSailor (Apr 5, 2017)

ding said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > I still can't figure why a God would even need a hell?
> ...



God doesn't need space and time to exist.  He's outside of it because He's eternal.  However, God probably created space and time so that WE could exist and He could watch us.


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## ding (Apr 5, 2017)

ABikerSailor said:


> ding said:
> 
> 
> > Mickiel said:
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Not space and time for God to exist but space and time for space and time to exist.


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## Mickiel (Apr 5, 2017)

Hell is a wicked imagination. I don't  understand why Christians like it so much.


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## ScienceRocks (Apr 5, 2017)

I believe hell is just gods evil side....

The devil is also god.


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## BreezeWood (Apr 5, 2017)

Mickiel said:


> Hell is a wicked imagination. I don't  understand why Christians like it so much.


.


Mickiel said:


> Hell is a wicked imagination.




there is no need to dwell on the 4th century christian version ...

certainly the evil spirit seeks immortality as well, having been evil, hurting innocent people there can not be to great a rejection they be punished for their past deeds - surly some get what is coming to them ... before it is over for their lot. happy ending.


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## RWNJ (Apr 6, 2017)

Matthew said:


> I believe hell is just gods evil side....
> 
> The devil is also god.


Fool.


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## ABikerSailor (Apr 6, 2017)

Mickiel said:


> Hell is a wicked imagination. I don't  understand why Christians like it so much.



They like it because it makes them feel superior to those they deem "sinners".  You know, a place to throw those that don't meet up to their moral values. 

Only problem is..........everyone who is Christian seems to be in a hurry to "out purify" others, and in the process, they declare everything they don't like to be a "sin". 

Hate to tell you, but music, drinking, and dancing aren't sins.


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## Mickiel (Apr 6, 2017)

ABikerSailor said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > Hell is a wicked imagination. I don't  understand why Christians like it so much.
> ...



Well I certainly don't think music , drinking and dancing are sins. You know what the world needs and has always needed? A God who loves us so much that he made it possible for no sin to destroy his people;  God had Jesus take absolute care of all sin ; now no sin and no selfish over zealous Christian can condemn any unbeliever who sins. The two biggest stumbling blocks to sinners has been removed ; satan and Christians who condemn others now cannot stop the salvation of sinners who need God the most.


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## RWNJ (Apr 6, 2017)

ABikerSailor said:


> Hate to tell you, but music, drinking, and dancing aren't sins.



You are correct. The Bible does not say that any of those are sins. Certain types of music could be considered a sin. Gangster rap, for instance. Nothing wrong with dancing, unless it's naked pole dancing, or something similar. As far as drinking goes, there is nothing wrong with it, as long as it's done in moderation.


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## Mudda (Apr 8, 2017)

RWNJ said:


> ABikerSailor said:
> 
> 
> > Hate to tell you, but music, drinking, and dancing aren't sins.
> ...


I bet a weenie like you is scared of hell.


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## ding (Apr 8, 2017)

RWNJ said:


> ABikerSailor said:
> 
> 
> > Hate to tell you, but music, drinking, and dancing aren't sins.
> ...


Don't pay Mudda any mind.  He's our resident troll.  He is cute and lovable like his avatar.


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## Mudda (Apr 8, 2017)

ding said:


> RWNJ said:
> 
> 
> > ABikerSailor said:
> ...


You STILL following me around? Now THAT'S creepy and


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## ding (Apr 8, 2017)

Mudda said:


> ding said:
> 
> 
> > RWNJ said:
> ...


If you say so.


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## Mickiel (Apr 9, 2017)

Why would a God need a hell?


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## ding (Apr 9, 2017)

Mickiel said:


> Why would a God need a hell?


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## ABikerSailor (Apr 9, 2017)

Again............like I said before................God doesn't need hell, churches and the people that form those churches need hell to scare others into the pews and to get them indoctrinated into their belief system.


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## ding (Apr 9, 2017)

ABikerSailor said:


> Again............like I said before................God doesn't need hell, churches and the people that form those churches need hell to scare others into the pews and to get them indoctrinated into their belief system.


And like I said before hell is being eternally separated from God.


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## BreezeWood (Apr 9, 2017)

ding said:


> ABikerSailor said:
> 
> 
> > Again............like I said before................God doesn't need hell, churches and the people that form those churches need hell to scare others into the pews and to get them indoctrinated into their belief system.
> ...


.


ding said:


> And like I said before hell is being eternally separated from God.




that's what an immortal evil would attempt, and why there is nothing representing the 4th century christian hell ... satan is dead, get over it.


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## ding (Apr 9, 2017)

BreezeWood said:


> ding said:
> 
> 
> > ABikerSailor said:
> ...


I never mentioned satan. Hell is being eternally separated from God.


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## BreezeWood (Apr 9, 2017)

ding said:


> BreezeWood said:
> 
> 
> > ding said:
> ...


.


ding said:


> I never mentioned satan. Hell is being eternally separated from God.




good luck trying ... your with evil in the attempt.


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## ding (Apr 10, 2017)

BreezeWood said:


> ding said:
> 
> 
> > BreezeWood said:
> ...


How so?


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## Mudda (Apr 10, 2017)

God needs a hell because he's not perfect and fucks up his creations now and then. Just like when he deforms babies. Or makes clowns.


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## ding (Apr 10, 2017)

Mudda said:


> God needs a hell because he's not perfect and fucks up his creations now and then. Just like when he deforms babies. Or makes clowns.


Bless your heart, it will all be over soon enough.


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## Mudda (Apr 10, 2017)

ding said:


> Mudda said:
> 
> 
> > God needs a hell because he's not perfect and fucks up his creations now and then. Just like when he deforms babies. Or makes clowns.
> ...


Is that what you tell yourself every morning?


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## Joy4Uall (Apr 10, 2017)

ding said:


> ABikerSailor said:
> 
> 
> > Again............like I said before................God doesn't need hell, churches and the people that form those churches need hell to scare others into the pews and to get them indoctrinated into their belief system.
> ...


A "lake of fire" is not "eternally separated from God", but inhuman torture. Scientific Humanism did not bring forward "heaven/hell" because it's just too morally risky to just HOPE that the "lake of fire" is some kind of metaphor, and that the Bible can't be taken at it's word, that it does NOT mean what it says and does NOT say what it means.


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## Joy4Uall (Apr 10, 2017)

ABikerSailor said:


> Again............like I said before................God doesn't need hell, churches and the people that form those churches need hell to scare others into the pews and to get them indoctrinated into their belief system.


It's also risky to believe that an all-loving god would believe that killing gays (multiple places in the Bible) is the best way, and hate gays so much that his son never corrected Romans where it says that gays (even ethical ones) can't get into heaven, but will burn with the, say, mass-murderers like, say, Hitler.
Scientific Humanism is the most LGBT-friendly overall belief system, and believes that LGBT deserve far far better treatment than Hitler deserves! The Bible doesn't, so we can't bring those parts forward for our impressionable young children.

Since we seek to have the most forgiving belief system, we believe in forgiving god/Jesus/Christians for this, however.


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## Joy4Uall (Apr 10, 2017)

ding said:


> BreezeWood said:
> 
> 
> > ding said:
> ...


As a Scientific Humanist we believe that what would be _best for the world_ would be if god/Jesus arrested "satan" (if he even exists, and there is no court-room level of evidence for that, however.)

Christians will put a pot-smoking 19 year old in prison but won't agree with us that the all-powerful and all-evil "satan" should be put in prison. .. So I think we have fortunately developed a more loving, and more intellectually-consistent, overall belief system - that understands _proper priorities_ more than even their god does. Hopefully Christians/Muslims/Buddhists/New-Atheists can help us create an even _better _belief system in the future. We're on a roll!


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## ding (Apr 10, 2017)

Mudda said:


> ding said:
> 
> 
> > Mudda said:
> ...


No. I love life.


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## Mickiel (Apr 10, 2017)

Christians need hell to help their PR stunt of spreading terror to the world.


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## Mickiel (Apr 11, 2017)

Mickiel said:


> Christians need hell to help their PR stunt of spreading terror to the world.




That terror is their twisting of the bible  and putting the truth of the  of God to the rear and their love of  the hell message to the front.


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## ABikerSailor (Apr 12, 2017)

You know, if you look at things from the Jewish viewpoint, there is no hell, and Satan isn't so much of an evil being, but is perceived as such because of his job as adversary, meaning that he reports everything that you do to God and holds you accountable for your actions. 

And, for those Christians who may have forgot, Jesus was Jewish.


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## ding (Apr 13, 2017)

ABikerSailor said:


> You know, if you look at things from the Jewish viewpoint, there is no hell, and Satan isn't so much of an evil being, but is perceived as such because of his job as adversary, meaning that he reports everything that you do to God and holds you accountable for your actions.
> 
> And, for those Christians who may have forgot, Jesus was Jewish.


Either way it has the same effect.  We are being tested.

No, we know that Jesus IS a Jew.


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## ding (Apr 13, 2017)

Mickiel said:


> Christians need hell to help their PR stunt of spreading terror to the world.


You seem to be confusing them with Muslims.


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## Mickiel (Apr 13, 2017)

ABikerSailor said:


> You know, if you look at things from the Jewish viewpoint, there is no hell, and Satan isn't so much of an evil being, but is perceived as such because of his job as adversary, meaning that he reports everything that you do to God and holds you accountable for your actions.
> 
> And, for those Christians who may have forgot, Jesus was Jewish.




Oh satan is evil, no doubt about it. And Jesus was Jewish, but he did not " Think Jewish!" If you know what I mean.


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## ding (Apr 13, 2017)

Mickiel said:


> ABikerSailor said:
> 
> 
> > You know, if you look at things from the Jewish viewpoint, there is no hell, and Satan isn't so much of an evil being, but is perceived as such because of his job as adversary, meaning that he reports everything that you do to God and holds you accountable for your actions.
> ...


No.  Jesus IS Jewish.


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## Mickiel (Apr 13, 2017)

Jesus is no longer human , he is NOT now Jewish! Period! Jesus is not now a human, he is not now a man, and he is not now any race or culture of humans. These are facts ; its academic!


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## ding (Apr 13, 2017)

Mickiel said:


> Jesus is no longer human , he is NOT now Jewish! Period! Jesus is not now a human, he is not now a man, and he is not now any race or culture of humans. These are facts ; its academic!


Jesus IS as He has always and will always be.  In the beginning the Word was with God.  Jesus is the Word.


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## Mickiel (Apr 13, 2017)

Mickiel said:


> Jesus is no longer human , he is NOT now Jewish! Period! Jesus is not now a human, he is not now a man, and he is not now any race or culture of humans. These are facts ; its academic!




Jesus is no longer Jewish, that is incorrect. Jesus is no longer a human, he is a God! Some kind of a God! God cannot be said to be a Baptist or a Jehovah's Witness; it is incorrect to try and make Jesus anything " Jewish", he is not Jewish now and never will be again!


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## ding (Apr 13, 2017)

Mickiel said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > Jesus is no longer human , he is NOT now Jewish! Period! Jesus is not now a human, he is not now a man, and he is not now any race or culture of humans. These are facts ; its academic!
> ...


Jesus IS fully human and fully Divine.  The Word made flesh.


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## Mickiel (Apr 13, 2017)

ding said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > Mickiel said:
> ...




Translation;  God needs love more than Christianity needs its hell;  Jesus is not " Fully Human now" , no flesh can exist at Christ level of existence!  Jesus is NOT now " Fully" human, he is not human at all! Jesus is NOT now " Fully human", or even partially human! Jesus is NOT fully human, he is NOT human at all!


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## ding (Apr 13, 2017)

Mickiel said:


> ding said:
> 
> 
> > Mickiel said:
> ...


You are unnaturally obsessed with Christianity and Christians.  Jesus IS fully human.  Jesus IS fully God.


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## Mickiel (Apr 14, 2017)

ding said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > ding said:
> ...




Jesus is not a human , notice Rev. 5:6 Jesus is described as having seven horns and seven eyes; in Rev. 14: 6, Jesus has the ability to " Fly", like all angels, because they are not human! No one who is fully human can fly like a plane!  Nothing human could sit at the right hand of God, Rev. 4:, in Rev. 4:11 Jesus created " All Things", nothing human could do that. In Rev. chapter 6, Jesus opens the seven seals, nothing human could do that!

In Rev. 5:3 no " Man" or no human  could open the books Jesus opened! If Jesus was fully human at this time , he could not have opened these books! No human was found worthy to open the books or even read them, Rev. 5:4. Its academic, Jesus was not fully human at this time, nor ever would be like that again!

Hello!


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## ding (Apr 14, 2017)

Mickiel said:


> ding said:
> 
> 
> > Mickiel said:
> ...


Why do crazy people focus on Revelations?  Jesus IS fully human.  Jesus IS fully God.


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## Mickiel (Apr 14, 2017)

Christianity is fully fractured. A truck running on physical fuel;  because its not yet invited to the spiritual fuel.


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## ding (Apr 14, 2017)

God loves diversity. He created it.


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## ABikerSailor (Apr 14, 2017)

ding said:


> God loves diversity. He created it.



Interesting.  You said that God loves diversity because He created it.

If that statement is true, then why do you Christians tell us that there is only one way to believe in God?  Me?  I personally think there is a little bit of God in all religions, because God is too big to be contained in just one dogma or belief system.

I mean.............you DID say that God likes diversity..............


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## Mickiel (Apr 14, 2017)

ABikerSailor said:


> ding said:
> 
> 
> > God loves diversity. He created it.
> ...




Interesting point ;  I agree with you.


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## ding (Apr 14, 2017)

ABikerSailor said:


> ding said:
> 
> 
> > God loves diversity. He created it.
> ...


Not sure which Christians have been telling you that.  It sure wasn't me.  There is only one God.  If you seek Him, He will respond.

I don't bad mouth any religions or disparage the religious beliefs of others.


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## Mickiel (Apr 15, 2017)

ding said:


> ABikerSailor said:
> 
> 
> > ding said:
> ...




Some Christians make a living off of bad mouthing other religions ;  you do that here at this site far more than any believer I have read. But again, I respect your ability to speak up and relate.


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## ding (Apr 15, 2017)

Mickiel said:


> ding said:
> 
> 
> > ABikerSailor said:
> ...


I haven't done it once.  If it is as you say it shouldn't be too hard for you to prove, right?  After all you claim I have done it many times, right?  

I am telling you that I have not done it once.  So I know you won't be able to prove it.


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## ABikerSailor (Apr 16, 2017)

ding said:


> ABikerSailor said:
> 
> 
> > ding said:
> ...



Actually, yeah, you do.  Anytime you tell others that they are going to hell if they don't accept Christ as their personal savior, you are disparaging other religions, because by saying that unless they accept Christ they are going to hell, you are telling them that their religion is false because it doesn't get you to Heaven. 

Try again.


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## Mickiel (Apr 16, 2017)

ABikerSailor said:


> ding said:
> 
> 
> > ABikerSailor said:
> ...




That is so true ;  religion does not get you to heaven, the grace of God does. Christianity does not control anything about human salvation or heaven. God knows better than to put something as important as salvation into the hands of  humans , especially religious humans - they are the most merciless!


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## ding (Apr 16, 2017)

ABikerSailor said:


> ding said:
> 
> 
> > ABikerSailor said:
> ...


When and where have I done that?  I haven't.


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## Mickiel (Apr 16, 2017)

Why would God need the Christian hell?


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## ding (Apr 16, 2017)

Mickiel said:


> Why would God need the Christian hell?


Hell is being separated from God.  What do you think hell is?


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## BreezeWood (Apr 16, 2017)

ding said:


> ABikerSailor said:
> 
> 
> > ding said:
> ...


.


ding said:


> When and where have I done that? I haven't.






> "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me".




it is throughout your 4th century book and why honest people have nothing to do with it, the brainwashed are the least to know who they are. you're the example.


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## ding (Apr 16, 2017)

BreezeWood said:


> ding said:
> 
> 
> > ABikerSailor said:
> ...


So you don't have any examples of me doing it?


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## BreezeWood (Apr 16, 2017)

ding said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > Why would God need the Christian hell?
> ...


.


ding said:


> Hell is being separated from God.




as pointed out to you before that is the aspiration of the immortal evil - and why satan is dead, get over it.


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## BreezeWood (Apr 16, 2017)

ding said:


> BreezeWood said:
> 
> 
> > ding said:
> ...


.


ding said:


> So you don't have any examples of me doing it?




your guilt is in everyone of your posts, christian.


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## ding (Apr 16, 2017)

BreezeWood said:


> ding said:
> 
> 
> > BreezeWood said:
> ...


So you don't have any examples of me doing it?


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## ding (Apr 16, 2017)

BreezeWood said:


> ding said:
> 
> 
> > Mickiel said:
> ...


Hell is being separated from God.


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## BreezeWood (Apr 16, 2017)

ding said:


> BreezeWood said:
> 
> 
> > ding said:
> ...


.


ding said:


> Hell is being separated from God.



that is the aspiration of evil and why satan is dead, get over it.


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## BreezeWood (Apr 16, 2017)

ding said:


> BreezeWood said:
> 
> 
> > ding said:
> ...


.


ding said:


> So you don't have any examples of me doing it?




your guilt is in everyone of your posts, christian.


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## ABikerSailor (Apr 17, 2017)

Hey Dingbat..........there have been several times you have told me that unless I accepted Jesus as my personal savior, I would go to hell. 

That is being disparaging of other belief systems.


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## Mudda (Apr 17, 2017)

ding said:


> Hell is being separated from God.


Says who? You?


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## ABikerSailor (Apr 17, 2017)

Mudda said:


> ding said:
> 
> 
> > Hell is being separated from God.
> ...



Actually Mudda, Dingbat is right on that one.  Hell is defined as a separation from God.  Only problem is, when the Romans first got possession of the Torah, they then adopted it to their own needs and came up with Christianity.  

But, simply saying that hell was a separation from God wasn't scary enough, so they had to come up with a scarier version of hell.  Well, since people at the time though that the worst way to die was to burn alive, they decided to make hell a burning lake of fire.


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## Mudda (Apr 17, 2017)

ABikerSailor said:


> Mudda said:
> 
> 
> > ding said:
> ...


You're both wrong: "*Hell*, in many mythological, folklore and religious traditions, is a place of torment and punishment in an afterlife."

Hell - Wikipedia


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## ABikerSailor (Apr 17, 2017)

Mudda said:


> ABikerSailor said:
> 
> 
> > Mudda said:
> ...



I was talking about it from the Jewish and Christian perspective.  Both believe that hell is being separated from God.


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## ding (Apr 17, 2017)

Mudda said:


> ABikerSailor said:
> 
> 
> > Mudda said:
> ...


That's only because that is what you want to believe to confirm your biases.


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## ding (Apr 17, 2017)

Mudda said:


> ding said:
> 
> 
> > Hell is being separated from God.
> ...


Yes.  Me.


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## sealybobo (Apr 19, 2017)

Mickiel said:


> I have asked myself why a God would need a hell, ( and by hell I mean the Christian version of it). I mean here this great being of life and love , is said to have created a place of eternal misery? And something is just not right with that, because it makes no sense at all. But a lot of things in religion make no sense, but religion rains on humanity, getting all of our consciousness wet in one manner or another.
> 
> My view of God, and I don't know God, have never seen him or heard his voice; is a view that I know is already distorted by many things; but I view him as merciful, loving, kind, forgiving, longsuffering, all the things that this Christian hell is not. So I don't think this hell is God's creation, I think the Christians created it. I think this eternal hell punishing is what Christians would do with unbelievers, not God. I think its moreso what the Christians want.
> 
> Why would God make an eternal monument out of evil? For what? Why would such a being of great power of change, co-exist with misery forever? Why? I can't see it. I think something is seriously wrong with this myopic view of hell! The powers that exist which can seduce the consciousness of humanity into believing nonsense, is simply stunning.


Turns out more than 25% of us are atheists.  Don't let them think you are a small minority.  Lots of people don't believe

U.S. surveys in recent years have calculated atheists make up between 3 percent and 10 percent of the population.  But the percentage may actually be much higher, because the stigma surrounding disbelief in God likely prevents people from honestly answering pollsters’ questions about their beliefs, according to a new report.  Study concluded the true number of American atheists may be as high as 26 percent of the population. 

*There are profound social pressures to be — or at least appear — religious.”*

There is social stigma surrounding atheism in the U.S., which may lead people to tell pollsters they believe in God even if they don’t. A January Pew asked respondents to rate different groups from 0 to 100.  Atheists received a rating of 50, the second-lowest rating for a religious group, after Muslims.  Why?  What do we do for theists to be so negative towards us?  I mean besides here.  Other than here we are virtually silent. 

“Given the centrality of religious belief to many societies, and the degree to which many equate religious belief with morality, there are profound social pressures to be ― or at least appear ― religious,” Bottom of Form


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## ding (Apr 19, 2017)

sealybobo said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > I have asked myself why a God would need a hell, ( and by hell I mean the Christian version of it). I mean here this great being of life and love , is said to have created a place of eternal misery? And something is just not right with that, because it makes no sense at all. But a lot of things in religion make no sense, but religion rains on humanity, getting all of our consciousness wet in one manner or another.
> ...


Don't kid yourself.


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## sealybobo (Apr 19, 2017)

ding said:


> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> > Mickiel said:
> ...


I knew it was true. I don't know anyone at my work who's religious. Not by any practicing Christians standards that's for sure. One Chaldean who's a half hearted Catholic. My boss barely takes her kids to church. I know several guys who've made fun of religions out loud and no one disagreed. One girl who went to get communion last year but only because her mother in law made her. She didn't go this year.

Of everyone I'm the only one who went to church.

If those are Christians your religion is doomed.

Ask most of them do you believe in God less than 3 out of 4 will say yes and i bet only 2 of them mean it


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## ding (Apr 19, 2017)

sealybobo said:


> ding said:
> 
> 
> > sealybobo said:
> ...


Dumbasses don't know what it means to be religious.


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## mudwhistle (Apr 19, 2017)

Mickiel said:


> I have asked myself why a God would need a hell, ( and by hell I mean the Christian version of it). I mean here this great being of life and love , is said to have created a place of eternal misery? And something is just not right with that, because it makes no sense at all. But a lot of things in religion make no sense, but religion rains on humanity, getting all of our consciousness wet in one manner or another.
> 
> My view of God, and I don't know God, have never seen him or heard his voice; is a view that I know is already distorted by many things; but I view him as merciful, loving, kind, forgiving, longsuffering, all the things that this Christian hell is not. So I don't think this hell is God's creation, I think the Christians created it. I think this eternal hell punishing is what Christians would do with unbelievers, not God. I think its moreso what the Christians want.
> 
> Why would God make an eternal monument out of evil? For what? Why would such a being of great power of change, co-exist with misery forever? Why? I can't see it. I think something is seriously wrong with this myopic view of hell! The powers that exist which can seduce the consciousness of humanity into believing nonsense, is simply stunning.


I guess you just can't understand free-will.


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## Mickiel (Apr 20, 2017)

mudwhistle said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > I have asked myself why a God would need a hell, ( and by hell I mean the Christian version of it). I mean here this great being of life and love , is said to have created a place of eternal misery? And something is just not right with that, because it makes no sense at all. But a lot of things in religion make no sense, but religion rains on humanity, getting all of our consciousness wet in one manner or another.
> ...




Free will is just another Christian illusion ; a well done one at that.


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## ding (Apr 20, 2017)

Mickiel said:


> mudwhistle said:
> 
> 
> > Mickiel said:
> ...


So then you are a fatalist?


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## mudwhistle (Apr 20, 2017)

Mickiel said:


> mudwhistle said:
> 
> 
> > Mickiel said:
> ...


Free will isn't an illusion. You could choose to murder someone if you wanted to. That's really up to you. 
It's your choice to steal or not to steal. 
It's your choice to run people over with your car or not to. 
That has nothing to do with being a Christian. Everyone has that choice.


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## Mickiel (Apr 21, 2017)

mudwhistle said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > mudwhistle said:
> ...



Yet to freely make such choices, one has to be free of outside influences. Explain that please.


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## mudwhistle (Apr 21, 2017)

Mickiel said:


> mudwhistle said:
> 
> 
> > Mickiel said:
> ...


One does not have to be free of outside influences. Every creature on Earth has outside influences. They have to deal with the need to eat and sleep. That's all part of being alive. I guess if you weren't alive you wouldn't have to deal with any influences.

You have the freedom to follow the law or not. If you want to live like an animal you can. You have only yourself to blame for choosing to do so. People who do not live in a free society don't have the same choice. Having rules is what keeps any society from becoming anarchy, thus it has nothing to do with what religion you choose to practice.

You seem to think in only black or white. You also must think you're smart because you ask questions some idiot taught you to ask. All you're doing is playing dumb........or are you just playing. Maybe you are dumb. Asking an illogical question in order to be a jerk, and refusing to understand isn't exactly smart.


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## Mickiel (Apr 21, 2017)

mudwhistle said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > mudwhistle said:
> ...




For a human will to be free, it must be totally unaffected by all outside influences. That is not possible.


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## mudwhistle (Apr 21, 2017)

Mickiel said:


> mudwhistle said:
> 
> 
> > Mickiel said:
> ...



WTF, are you waiting in your mom's basement for somebody to waste their time on you? Get a life.

For a person to be human you have to be alive....thus outside influences control you. If you lived in a total vacuum you couldn't survive. If you lived on the moon you wouldn't last long. There is no such thing as total freedom. There is free will, but the consequences of incorrect decisions is merely an incentive. You still have the right to do the wrong thing.....like drive the wrong way down a one-way street, but you should understand that you won't last long doing so.


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## ding (Apr 21, 2017)

Mickiel said:


> mudwhistle said:
> 
> 
> > Mickiel said:
> ...


That's the stupidest thing I have ever heard.  It is exactly the opposite, dumbass.  We have to choose the right thing despite outside influence.  Where the hell do you think temptations come from.


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## Mickiel (Apr 27, 2017)

mudwhistle said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > mudwhistle said:
> ...



One day  in my Mom's basement, I ran across this;

The Lake of Fire - Part 15


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## Mickiel (Apr 30, 2017)

Mickiel said:


> mudwhistle said:
> 
> 
> > Mickiel said:
> ...




An astute explanation of the myth of free will. Free will, the lie that has swept religion.


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## Mickiel (Jun 7, 2017)

Mickiel said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > mudwhistle said:
> ...




Eternal  hell suffering is a stunning lie that Christianity pimps on the world. They shame the salvation of God.


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## james bond (Jun 8, 2017)

Mickiel said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > Mickiel said:
> ...



>>Eternal  hell suffering is a stunning lie that Christianity pimps on the world. They shame the salvation of God.<<

Jesus said it in Matthew 25:41-46.  

“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’

44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’

45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’

46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

Bible Gateway passage: Matthew 25:41-46 - New International Version

I think it's a Biblical prophecy that a lake of fire will be created as will there be a new heaven and new earth.  This is where Satan is supposed to go for all eternity.  Today, what is a physical representation may be on earth as the fire that still burns in Turkmenistan:











It's in a bowl like shape similar to that in the fiction epic poem Dante's Paradise Lost.






The levels of hell as punishment seems to be a concept that fits better than someone being burned and tortured forever.  I suspect that kind of punishment came from the ancient Roman Catholics.  What does get burned and destroyed forever is one's spiritually perfect self and identity in the lake of fire as punishment and judgment from Jesus.

Thus, I think hell can be an unpleasant place and punishment may go on, but generally I think the spirits there will be in a state of woe.

This is in contrast to that our current lives are all that is and all that there will be.  The truth is "You Only Live Twice."  This short life is the illusion.


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## RWNJ (Jun 8, 2017)

james bond said:


> Mickiel said:
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I think it just makes sense that if there is an eternal reward, there should also be eternal punishment.


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## Blackrook (Jun 10, 2017)

God does not "need" hell, and he did not "create" it.

We, the sinners, "created" hell, as our place away from God, blocked off from his overpowering love, which we cannot endure because it pains us.

Many of us are already in hell, here in this life.


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## Mickiel (Jun 12, 2017)

RWNJ said:


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You think it makes sense to hurt people for all eternity?

God help us.

But not your God, the other God of mercy and forgiveness help us. Please, lets just let your god stay in his corner.


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## james bond (Jun 12, 2017)

Mickiel said:


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>>You think it makes sense to hurt people for all eternity?<<

LOL.  I think it helps if you read my post.


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## Mickiel (Jun 12, 2017)

james bond said:


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Oh I read it. Believe me I read all posts on my threads.

I do not believe that God would punish humans by placing them in pain for an endless eternity; that would be insane and utter madness! That would be a sure sign of demented use of power.

God is not perverted or unstable.

Man is.


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## ABikerSailor (Jun 12, 2017)

You're right Mickel.  It seems that a lot of these "good Christians" take an inordinate amount of delight in consigning their fellow humans to hell for not believing as they do. 

Screwed up thing is, there can be different denominations that use the same book (KJV Bible), but interpret it differently, and end up denouncing each other, even though they believe in the same God and use the same book.


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## Cellblock2429 (Jun 12, 2017)

mudwhistle said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > I have asked myself why a God would need a hell, ( and by hell I mean the Christian version of it). I mean here this great being of life and love , is said to have created a place of eternal misery? And something is just not right with that, because it makes no sense at all. But a lot of things in religion make no sense, but religion rains on humanity, getting all of our consciousness wet in one manner or another.
> ...



/----- Well you have to put Commies and Progressives somewhere when they croak. 


Sent from my iPhone using USMessageBoard.com


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## Mickiel (Jun 12, 2017)

ABikerSailor said:


> You're right Mickel.  It seems that a lot of these "good Christians" take an inordinate amount of delight in consigning their fellow humans to hell for not believing as they do.
> 
> Screwed up thing is, there can be different denominations that use the same book (KJV Bible), but interpret it differently, and end up denouncing each other, even though they believe in the same God and use the same book.



The same book shows the salvation of all ;  it shows what salvation is, who gave it and why; but their minds are so steeped into damnation, its all they can see,.

you see what you believe , and you believe what you desire. when people constantly see the damnation of others , deep down inside its what they desire for others. So it is in their hearts. In Isaiah 45:21-25 God declares that all the ends of the earth will be saved, and that we all will  submit to him and bow to him, and that is his desire! Hey, that is what God said, so I could care less what the Christians are saying.


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## kjw47 (Jun 13, 2017)

Mickiel said:


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No Christian religion teaches eternal suffering--False Christian religions do--they are not Christian. Not all is as appears in a satan ruled world.


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## RWNJ (Jun 14, 2017)

kjw47 said:


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Wrong. "And if anyone was found whose name was not written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire." There you have it. Straight from Scripture.


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## frigidweirdo (Jun 14, 2017)

Mickiel said:


> I have asked myself why a God would need a hell, ( and by hell I mean the Christian version of it). I mean here this great being of life and love , is said to have created a place of eternal misery? And something is just not right with that, because it makes no sense at all. But a lot of things in religion make no sense, but religion rains on humanity, getting all of our consciousness wet in one manner or another.
> 
> My view of God, and I don't know God, have never seen him or heard his voice; is a view that I know is already distorted by many things; but I view him as merciful, loving, kind, forgiving, longsuffering, all the things that this Christian hell is not. So I don't think this hell is God's creation, I think the Christians created it. I think this eternal hell punishing is what Christians would do with unbelievers, not God. I think its moreso what the Christians want.
> 
> Why would God make an eternal monument out of evil? For what? Why would such a being of great power of change, co-exist with misery forever? Why? I can't see it. I think something is seriously wrong with this myopic view of hell! The powers that exist which can seduce the consciousness of humanity into believing nonsense, is simply stunning.



Well, religion often seems rather convenient for the people who want to control people. Hell is clearly a human invention designed to act like the threat of prison.


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## kjw47 (Jun 15, 2017)

RWNJ said:


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Blind guides teach a literal eternal suffering. Jesus clearly taught-- those who walk the broad and spacious path to destruction-- not eternal suffering.


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## ABikerSailor (Jun 15, 2017)

Several things here..............Hell is generally defined as a separation from God.  God is considered to be Light, and Light is warm.

Hate to tell you people, but hell isn't exactly warm.  It's more like it's cold and dark. 

And people being cast into a lake of fire is in Revelation, which is a book that was written by a man.


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## kjw47 (Jun 16, 2017)

ABikerSailor said:


> Several things here..............Hell is generally defined as a separation from God.  God is considered to be Light, and Light is warm.
> 
> Hate to tell you people, but hell isn't exactly warm.  It's more like it's cold and dark.
> 
> And people being cast into a lake of fire is in Revelation, which is a book that was written by a man.




Yes written by a man, a true man of God. The God who inspired the words through him.
Facts-- the Hebrew word-SHEOL = the Greek word--HADES-- both translate--the GRAVE--Hades= hell.
The eternal suffering teaching is a sadistic lie taught by those who do not know God. symbolism was that teaching.
Jesus assured all--Those who walk the broad and spacious path will be destroyed.


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## kjw47 (Jun 16, 2017)

RWNJ said:


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In the book of revelation fire= destruction--there is more than that example in Rev.


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## Mickiel (Jul 24, 2017)

frigidweirdo said:


> Mickiel said:
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> 
> > I have asked myself why a God would need a hell, ( and by hell I mean the Christian version of it). I mean here this great being of life and love , is said to have created a place of eternal misery? And something is just not right with that, because it makes no sense at all. But a lot of things in religion make no sense, but religion rains on humanity, getting all of our consciousness wet in one manner or another.
> ...




Correct. Religions created this unholy doctrine only because their understanding of God and the bible is unholy.


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## Bonzi (Jul 24, 2017)

If you believe this sort of thing, hell was created for Satan.  You would just go there if you rejected God which meant by default you followed Satan so you would go where he is


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## Mickiel (Jul 24, 2017)

Bonzi said:


> If you believe this sort of thing, hell was created for Satan.  You would just go there if you rejected God which meant by default you followed Satan so you would go where he is




Nonsense , hell is meaningless to the God of salvation. The people who reject God are supposed to, its how God wants it for now. In Isaiah 45:23 God swears that ALL of humanity will submit  to him and believe and accept him, and most will do so by force! God will NOT ask humanity to bow and  swear alligence to him, he will force them to.

Because that is his will, this hell junk is the will of perverted believers in God.


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## Bonzi (Jul 24, 2017)

Mickiel said:


> Bonzi said:
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> > If you believe this sort of thing, hell was created for Satan.  You would just go there if you rejected God which meant by default you followed Satan so you would go where he is
> ...


No by force, be recognition.
Some believe he'll to mean merely absence of God


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## Mickiel (Jul 24, 2017)

Bonzi said:


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The so called absence of God lie is just their way of trying to water down the insanity of eternal hell teaching. God did not create humanity only to be absent from them in eternity, such a thing insults the integrity of God.


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## Bonzi (Jul 24, 2017)

Mickiel said:


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So what do you believe happens after we die?


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## Mickiel (Jul 24, 2017)

Bonzi said:


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We will all live again with God, that is what I believe. In Isaiah 66:9 God asks " Shall I bring to birth and not cause to bring forth? Says the Lord. Shall I cause to bring forth and shut the womb?" What God means here is that he has not given humanity life, only to kill us or condemn us to some eternal separation from him. He gave us life so we can live with him; we were all born to give up humanity one day and freely step into eternity with entirely differing life. God is not going to loose any of us. Jesus will not loose any sheep, meaning humans.


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## frigidweirdo (Jul 24, 2017)

Mickiel said:


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Is this a "Only what I believe is right, and I know it's right because if it's wrong then I'm stupid, and I would never admit to that" sort of thing?


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## Mickiel (Jul 24, 2017)

frigidweirdo said:


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What do you think? I am wrong far more than I am right.


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## Mickiel (Jul 30, 2017)

Hell is a serious religious misunderstanding, because they don't know God.


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## Aletheia4u (Aug 2, 2017)

Mickiel said:


> I have asked myself why a God would need a hell, ( and by hell I mean the Christian version of it). I mean here this great being of life and love , is said to have created a place of eternal misery? And something is just not right with that, because it makes no sense at all. But a lot of things in religion make no sense, but religion rains on humanity, getting all of our consciousness wet in one manner or another.
> 
> My view of God, and I don't know God, have never seen him or heard his voice; is a view that I know is already distorted by many things; but I view him as merciful, loving, kind, forgiving, longsuffering, all the things that this Christian hell is not. So I don't think this hell is God's creation, I think the Christians created it. I think this eternal hell punishing is what Christians would do with unbelievers, not God. I think its moreso what the Christians want.
> 
> Why would God make an eternal monument out of evil? For what? Why would such a being of great power of change, co-exist with misery forever? Why? I can't see it. I think something is seriously wrong with this myopic view of hell! The powers that exist which can seduce the consciousness of humanity into believing nonsense, is simply stunning.


It is because God doesn't kills. That it is only the work of darkness. He only transform one life into another. But the lifeforms that doesn't produces life, He puts it away with the others.  Just imagine if you has so much knowledge, but unable to put it to use. The souls in hell will be swirling around in the dark abyss, always craving to be around life. Wanting something to do, but can't do nothing, because of there is no resources. It is like being locked in a dark closet forever. The only thing is to do in this realm, is to weep and gnashing of the teeth with anger.  They are put there so that they cannot harm anymore life.
 If you have read the Bible, He never destroyed no life at all. He has the dark angels to do that. The Book Of Job shows what method He uses to get rid of those that disobeys Him. In the New Testament that it shows that satan has no power unless it is giving to him by God. Jesus has shown that satan hs served Him all of the time, that he is not above Him. When Jesus was showing us what to do when temptation comes. That He told satan to leave, and satan had left. And when Jesus approached the evil spirits that were housed in the man. That the spirits knew whom He was, and they know that it were judgement day. But it wasn't judgement day, that God did not came to judge the world, but to save it. instead But He has shown what is going to happen on that day when it comes around again. That the wicked will be sent to the bottom of the lake.

Matthew 8:32 He said to them, “Go!” So they came out and went into the pigs, and the whole herd rushed down the steep bank into the lake and died in the water.


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## Mudda (Aug 2, 2017)

Aletheia4u said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > I have asked myself why a God would need a hell, ( and by hell I mean the Christian version of it). I mean here this great being of life and love , is said to have created a place of eternal misery? And something is just not right with that, because it makes no sense at all. But a lot of things in religion make no sense, but religion rains on humanity, getting all of our consciousness wet in one manner or another.
> ...


God is the biggest mass murderer of them all! Or didn't you read the story of the flood and Noah's ark?


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## Aletheia4u (Aug 2, 2017)

Mudda said:


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 According to the scriptures, that everything has life in it. Even stones. But it also says when we die, we enter a sleep realm. But when we are waken from it, we are placed in realms that goes accordingly to our works. And so you will not want to wake into a place that you will wished that you never had been woken up into, that it is a place that you will be weeping and gnashing at the teeth, forever.. And so God doesn't kill. He just transform you from one place into another. But you will be praying to Him, asking Him to drop a mountain on you. And so you should be like the shrewd steward, by covering both ends.


Genesis 7:4 Seven days from now I will send rain on the earth for forty days and forty nights, and I will wipe from the face of the earth every living creature I have made.”

5 And Noah did all that the Lord commanded him.

Exodus 14:21 Then Moses stretched out his hand over the sea, and all that night the Lord drove the sea back with a strong east wind and turned it into dry land. The waters were divided,

Matthew 8:27 The men were amazed and asked, “What kind of man is this? Even the winds and the waves obey him!”

Matthew 8:9 For I myself am a man under authority, with soldiers under me. I tell this one, ‘Go,’ and he goes; and that one, ‘Come,’ and he comes. I say to my servant, ‘Do this,’ and he does it.”

John 11:13 Jesus had been speaking of his death, but his disciples thought he meant natural sleep.

Mark 5:41 He took her by the hand and said to her, “Talitha koum!” (which means “Little girl, I say to you, get up!”).

Daniel 12:2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.

1 Samuel 28:15 Samuel said to Saul, “Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?” “I am in great distress,” Saul said. “The Philistines are fighting against me, and God has departed from me. He no longer answers me, either by prophets or by dreams. So I have called on you to tell me what to do.”


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## Mudda (Aug 2, 2017)

Aletheia4u said:


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If god can murder all those people in the flood, I don't doubt that he'd want to torture me as well. You too.


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## Aletheia4u (Aug 2, 2017)

Mudda said:


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Don't worry.., I'm sure that He has prepared a special place just for you...


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## Mudda (Aug 2, 2017)

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Right next to you and Adolf.


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## Mickiel (Aug 2, 2017)

Mudda said:


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The  flood is a good example of God killing thousands, maybe millions of people. And God has used men to kill for him, like King David, his killings are legendary in scripture. God used Israel to kill for him.


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## Aletheia4u (Aug 3, 2017)

In those days, that they called all spirits, good or evil, angels from the Lord. They did not know anything about the devil, or it having his own kingdom. You can ask any Jew if they believes that there are demons. And they will say ,"No",. they doesn't believes that demons exists. They just believes that all spirits are angels of the Lord.


2 Samuel 24:16 When the angel stretched out his hand to destroy Jerusalem, the Lord relented concerning the disaster and said to the angel who was afflicting the people, “Enough! Withdraw your hand.” The angel of the Lord was then at the threshing floor of Araunah the Jebusite.

Exodus 12:23 When the Lord goes through the land to strike down the Egyptians, he will see the blood on the top and sides of the doorframe and will pass over that doorway, and he will not permit the destroyer to enter your houses and strike you down.

Isaiah 54:16 “See, it is I who created the blacksmith who fans the coals into flame and forges a weapon fit for its work. And it is I who have created the destroyer to wreak havoc;

Genesis 1:2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.

Isaiah 45:7 I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the Lord, do all these things.

Luke 22:31 “Simon, Simon, Satan has asked to sift all of you as wheat.

Job 1:12 The Lord said to Satan, “Very well, then, everything he has is in your power, but on the man himself do not lay a finger.”


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## Aletheia4u (Aug 3, 2017)




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## Mickiel (Aug 6, 2017)

Demons are certainly real.


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## ABikerSailor (Aug 6, 2017)

Hey, I was watching Inside Edition the other day, and they said that exorcisms in the USA have been increasing over the past few years.


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## sealybobo (Aug 20, 2017)

Mickiel said:


> I have asked myself why a God would need a hell, ( and by hell I mean the Christian version of it). I mean here this great being of life and love , is said to have created a place of eternal misery? And something is just not right with that, because it makes no sense at all. But a lot of things in religion make no sense, but religion rains on humanity, getting all of our consciousness wet in one manner or another.
> 
> My view of God, and I don't know God, have never seen him or heard his voice; is a view that I know is already distorted by many things; but I view him as merciful, loving, kind, forgiving, longsuffering, all the things that this Christian hell is not. So I don't think this hell is God's creation, I think the Christians created it. I think this eternal hell punishing is what Christians would do with unbelievers, not God. I think its moreso what the Christians want.
> 
> Why would God make an eternal monument out of evil? For what? Why would such a being of great power of change, co-exist with misery forever? Why? I can't see it. I think something is seriously wrong with this myopic view of hell! The powers that exist which can seduce the consciousness of humanity into believing nonsense, is simply stunning.


Hell and heaven are things that religions need. Without them they have no control. They use them to get people to conform or obey or be good.

Yesterday I listened to an Evangelical radio show. I don't know what part of the Bible they were reading but to me it seemed like the ramblings of men who wanted to invent a religion. They said everything but in no order. The story didn't have a beginning or end it just went on and on occasionally warning about liars, then adulterers, then greedy people then non believers.

Based on what they said no one's going to heaven. Jesus is up there all alone. Lol

And no kidding the Bible touches on almost every subject. I say almost but I'm sure if you look hard enough you can find a loophole. For example Jesus didn't tell people not to own slaves but I'm sure the golden rule covers that.

Anyways, Christians are idiots. Even the good ones.


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## Taz (Aug 20, 2017)

God needs a hell otherwise nobody pays up at church.


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## RWNJ (Aug 20, 2017)

Taz said:


> God needs a hell otherwise nobody pays up at church.


Such ignorance. Hell was created for the Devil and the angels who revolted against God. Any humans who follow Satan will also go there. Not because they didn't 'pay up' but because they placed themselves above their Creator and chose evil.


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## Taz (Aug 21, 2017)

RWNJ said:


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God gave us free choice. To punish anyone after exercising such free choice that you gave them is the height of doucheness.


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## RWNJ (Aug 21, 2017)

Taz said:


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God does not punish anyone for exercising free choice. He does so because they made the WRONG choice. We disobeyed God. He has every right to punish us. On the other hand, He also gave us a way out. He sent His only Son to die for us. All we have to do is accept His free gift of Salvation. Most won't do so because they are too proud. They think they can earn their way to Heaven. These people are fools.


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## LittleNipper (Aug 22, 2017)

GOD doesn't need hell. Those that choose to serve Satan do so that they can be forever separated from GOD. That is the ultimate goal of the Unsaved to live apart from GOD. Hell fulfills that desire for all eternity and then some.


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## Taz (Aug 23, 2017)

RWNJ said:


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So god gives me free choice but if I choose the path he doesn't like, I burn in hell forever? That's not a choice, that's a massive douchebag move.


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## Taz (Aug 23, 2017)

LittleNipper said:


> GOD doesn't need hell. Those that choose to serve Satan do so that they can be forever separated from GOD. That is the ultimate goal of the Unsaved to live apart from GOD. Hell fulfills that desire for all eternity and then some.


Got any proof?


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## RWNJ (Aug 23, 2017)

Taz said:


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Humans have sinned against God. We are born in sin. There is nothing we can do to better our lot in Gods eyes. So God had pity on us. He sent His Son to take our place. He died so that we could live. We are already under a sentence of death because we are sinners. But all we have to do is accept Gods free gift of Salvation. Jesus did not have to die for us. But he did it anyway. Because He loves us. Think about that for a minute. The Creator of the universe died so that we could be made right with God. That is a supreme act of love. If I had made that kind of sacrifice and someone like you spit in my face rather than accept such a precious gift, I send them to Hell too. Wouldn't you?


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## RWNJ (Aug 23, 2017)

Taz said:


> LittleNipper said:
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> > GOD doesn't need hell. Those that choose to serve Satan do so that they can be forever separated from GOD. That is the ultimate goal of the Unsaved to live apart from GOD. Hell fulfills that desire for all eternity and then some.
> ...


It's in the Bible. you might want to read it, rather than acting the fool.


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## Mudda (Aug 25, 2017)

RWNJ said:


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The bible is a book written by men, and the big things in it can't be proven. Got anything for real?


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## LittleNipper (Aug 25, 2017)

Taz said:


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NO! That isn't what I said. You don't want to listen to GOD. You don't want to be with God. You have this one life to make up your mind. Hell is the only place without GOD's influence. So that is where one will go forever as a matter of personal choice. Don't blame GOD for one's choice. GOD made Himself subservient and suffered unspeakable ridicule, humiliation, torture, and separation from the Father and the Holy Spirit so that you'd have an alternative.  Anything else is YOUR CHOICE!


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## LittleNipper (Aug 25, 2017)

Mudda said:


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If you do not see/comprehend the most obvious fulfillment of Bible prophecy happening today ---- then I'm very sorry for your blindness. In 50 years, we have gone from a country at least attempting to respect GOD to a bunch of pagan jerks with tattoos fighting over statuary, redefining marriage, and cutting crosses off of campus chapels, and sentencing child murderers to 10 years in prison (8.5 with "good" behavior) ----- yet we ruin the livelihood of honest people who do not wish to capitulate to the whims of sexual perversion/insanity. And we have the audacity to label such "freedom".     We the people are free to be evil, and that is about it.
And yet Israel has risen from the grave and is at the center of world developments and unrest. The Bible has been proven accurate once again!


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## Mudda (Aug 25, 2017)

LittleNipper said:


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Trump is "the most obvious fulfillment of Bible prophecy happening today"?


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## ABikerSailor (Aug 25, 2017)

Mudda said:


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Sorry Mudda, but they may have a point about Trump being "the most obvious fulfillment of Bible prophecy happening today" in that maybe Trump is the one who will be the anti Christ and plunge the world into 7 years of tribulation.


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## LittleNipper (Aug 25, 2017)

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## RWNJ (Aug 29, 2017)

ABikerSailor said:


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That's pretty funny. Scripture says that the Anti-Christ will be universally accepted by everyone. Sorry, but Trump just doesn't fit the bill. Or have you not been paying attention to the news?


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## ABikerSailor (Aug 29, 2017)

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Give it time.  Trump already has unquestioning loyalty from his supporters, you just gotta give them time to spread the stupid around and infect the rest of the population.  

Those who are against Trump are against the anti Christ, so therefore if you are against Trump, you are for Christ.


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## RWNJ (Aug 29, 2017)

ABikerSailor said:


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What makes you think Trump is the Anti-Christ?


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## Taz (Aug 29, 2017)

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How about the Pope? Everyone accepts the Pope as the Pope.


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## Bonzi (Aug 29, 2017)

Taz said:


> How about the Pope? Everyone accepts the Pope as the Pope.



I don't.  I think he's a cult leader


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## Taz (Aug 29, 2017)

Bonzi said:


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> > How about the Pope? Everyone accepts the Pope as the Pope.
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Sure, but you accept him as the Pope, i.e. the head of that "cult".


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## ABikerSailor (Aug 29, 2017)

RWNJ said:


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> > RWNJ said:
> ...



Because he seems hell bent on profiting from the presidency while destroying the planet.  Wanna talk about his views of the environment and all the regulations that hes' rolled back?  How about Russia?  Wanna talk about how he's itching for a war with N. Korea?  How about putting more troops in Afghanistan?

Obama did much less, and the conservatives were calling him the anti Christ from way early in his presidency.  Just trying to return the favor.


----------



## Bezukhov (Sep 4, 2017)

So when did God create Hell? Before or after Adam and Eve ate that fruit?


----------



## Mickiel (Oct 2, 2017)

Bezukhov said:


> So when did God create Hell? Before or after Adam and Eve ate that fruit?




God never created any hell; in the bible , hell simply means " The Grave", a hole in the ground for dead bodies. That's it, plain and simple.


----------



## hadit (Oct 2, 2017)

Bezukhov said:


> So when did God create Hell? Before or after Adam and Eve ate that fruit?



Before. It wasn't originally intended for human occupation. Matthew 25:41. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## hadit (Oct 2, 2017)

Mickiel said:


> Bezukhov said:
> 
> 
> > So when did God create Hell? Before or after Adam and Eve ate that fruit?
> ...



You have to ignore Scripture to maintain that.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Mickiel (Oct 2, 2017)

hadit said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > Bezukhov said:
> ...




Nothing like the Christian hell was even mentioned or suggested to Adam, Eve, Noah, Lot, Abraham, Moses, David, Solomon, Cain , not even the people of Sodom and Gomorrah.  There is no mention of the creation of the Christian version of hell in the New Testament , or the purpose of it. Its insanity written on ink and smears the reputation of God's total forgiveness and purpose for all humanity.


----------



## Bezukhov (Oct 2, 2017)

Mickiel said:


> Bezukhov said:
> 
> 
> > So when did God create Hell? Before or after Adam and Eve ate that fruit?
> ...



I agree. I want to hear from those who follow the traditional view of Hell. Thank you for your thoughts.


----------



## Bezukhov (Oct 2, 2017)

hadit said:


> Bezukhov said:
> 
> 
> > So when did God create Hell? Before or after Adam and Eve ate that fruit?
> ...



So this God changed His mind? He said: "But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.'

So God decided that death was too god for them? Maybe He thought watching them suffer for an eternity was much more entertaining, and would give Him a massive stffy?


----------



## hadit (Oct 2, 2017)

Mickiel said:


> hadit said:
> 
> 
> > Mickiel said:
> ...


You have to totally ignore what Jesus said to maintain that.


----------



## hadit (Oct 2, 2017)

Bezukhov said:


> hadit said:
> 
> 
> > Bezukhov said:
> ...


Man decided to put himself there, it wasn't what God intended.


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## RWNJ (Oct 2, 2017)

Bezukhov said:


> hadit said:
> 
> 
> > Bezukhov said:
> ...


----------



## Mickiel (Nov 28, 2017)

Christians need a hell, not God.


----------



## kjw47 (Nov 28, 2017)

Mickiel said:


> Christians need a hell, not God.





False Christianity teaches a literal place of eternal suffering because they do not know God or his son.


----------



## Mickiel (Nov 28, 2017)

kjw47 said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > Christians need a hell, not God.
> ...




Nobody knows God, Job 36:26.


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## ABikerSailor (Nov 28, 2017)

kjw47 said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > Christians need a hell, not God.
> ...



You know, Christians would do good to learn the difference between eternity and everlasting.  Everlasting has a beginning, but no end, while eternity has always been, and always will be. 

In John 3:16, it states "For God so loved the world that He gave His only Begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him, shall not perish, but have everlasting life". 

If we are consigned to hell for eternity, that means we are already in hell if we didn't live right in this life?  That makes no sense. 

Point is..................nobody goes to hell for eternity.


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## Mickiel (Nov 28, 2017)

ABikerSailor said:


> kjw47 said:
> 
> 
> > Mickiel said:
> ...




Hell is just a mindless hole in the ground, when Christianity translated the bible from Greek, Aramaic and Hebrew, into Spanish, they corrupted spaces of the bible to fit their corruption.


----------



## Hossfly (Nov 28, 2017)

ABikerSailor said:


> kjw47 said:
> 
> 
> > Mickiel said:
> ...



How 'bout if we send Obarfa, Cankles. Chuckie and Nancy there to find out and make a report?


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## Death Angel (Nov 28, 2017)

Mickiel said:


> Christians need a hell, not God.


Hell is a pagan teaching taught by paganized "christianity" and all other false religions. The Scriptures teach that the earth itself will be purified by fire just before the Father comes down to live among His resurrected children.

NOTHING physical will survive into the New Earth.

The wicked will be ASHES under the feet of the Saints.


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## Mickiel (Nov 28, 2017)

Death Angel said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > Christians need a hell, not God.
> ...




The wicked will be forgiven, changed and loved by God forever, just like the saints. Because they need that from God more than the saints; stop condemning people.


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## Death Angel (Nov 28, 2017)

Mickiel said:


> The wicked will be forgiven, changed and loved by God forever, just like the saints. Because they need that from God more than the saints; stop condemning people.


What scriptures do you twist to justify that?
*
Then you will trample on the wicked; they will be ashes under the soles of your feet on the day when I act," says the LORD Almighty*.


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## Mickiel (Nov 28, 2017)

Death Angel said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > The wicked will be forgiven, changed and loved by God forever, just like the saints. Because they need that from God more than the saints; stop condemning people.
> ...




Start with these 100.


http://www.tentmaker.org/books/ScripturalProofs.html


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## Mickiel (Nov 28, 2017)

Then go to these 600.


http://haroldlovelace.com/lovelacelist.php


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## Death Angel (Nov 28, 2017)

Neither of those are a defense of your position.

I used the Scriptures.

You respond with the thoughts of MEN.


----------



## Mickiel (Nov 28, 2017)

Death Angel said:


> Neither of those are a defense of your position.
> 
> I used the Scriptures.
> 
> You respond with the thoughts of MEN.




I just gave you 700 scriptures; You don't look at them, you don't study them, you don't ask God to help you consider them, you call those 700 scriptures the thoughts of me; all typical nonsense response; your not serious about this word; your serious about your religion. Your stuck on the bible stupid; what you learned in some church perhaps;

but that's not your fault; go in peace.


----------



## RWNJ (Nov 28, 2017)

Death Angel said:


> Neither of those are a defense of your position.
> 
> I used the Scriptures.
> 
> You respond with the thoughts of MEN.


Here's some Scripture for you.

"And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire."


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## ABikerSailor (Nov 28, 2017)

A question for all you Christians......................

God is considered to be Light, and Hell is supposed to be a permanent separation from God. 

Light produces heat.  So, permanent separation from God would mean that you are also separated from light. 

If all that is true, then why is Hell considered to be a place of fire and flames?  Wouldn't separation from God put you in a cold dark place?


----------



## buttercup (Nov 28, 2017)

ABikerSailor said:


> A question for all you Christians......................
> 
> God is considered to be Light, and Hell is supposed to be a permanent separation from God.
> 
> ...



That is why some biblical scholars believe that although hell is a real place, the flame terminology is figurative.

If that is correct, the pain and gnashing of teeth is emotional pain, the realization that one made the wrong decision and rejected the best thing in the universe.


----------



## Mickiel (Nov 28, 2017)

RWNJ said:


> Death Angel said:
> 
> 
> > Neither of those are a defense of your position.
> ...




Heres something for you:


http://bible-truths.com/23-minutes-in-hell.html


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## Mickiel (Nov 28, 2017)

buttercup said:


> ABikerSailor said:
> 
> 
> > A question for all you Christians......................
> ...



Hell is a Christian hoax;

http://www.thehypertexts.com/How many tines is hell mentioned in% Bible.htm20the


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## RWNJ (Nov 28, 2017)

ABikerSailor said:


> A question for all you Christians......................
> 
> God is considered to be Light, and Hell is supposed to be a permanent separation from God.
> 
> ...


It is not referring to physical light. Besides, God is perfectly capable of changing the laws of physics and creating something that burns without giving off light. Also, the Bible mentions a lake of fire. There is nothing in Scripture that indicates that it is a figure of speech, so we must take it literally.


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## Hossfly (Nov 28, 2017)

Mickiel said:


> buttercup said:
> 
> 
> > ABikerSailor said:
> ...



Nah. When they're referring to hell they mean Californicate.


----------



## Mickiel (Nov 29, 2017)

The Insanity of Hell | Love Wins Because God Is Love…


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## kjw47 (Nov 29, 2017)

Mickiel said:


> kjw47 said:
> 
> 
> > Mickiel said:
> ...




They can know all the bible teaches about him.


----------



## kjw47 (Nov 29, 2017)

ABikerSailor said:


> kjw47 said:
> 
> 
> > Mickiel said:
> ...




Jesus was clear to all-- Enter through the narrow gate, for cramped is the road leading off into life( everlasting) FEW are the ones finding it. For MANY have entered the broad and spacious path that leads to--DESTRUCTION. --Not eternal suffering. The teachings in the bible were symbolisim for the value of what each lost who were destroyed. They miss each new dawning day in Gods kingdom for eternity, it never ends.


----------



## kjw47 (Nov 29, 2017)

Death Angel said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > Christians need a hell, not God.
> ...




You must have missed these 2 truths that teach the opposite of your post--- Proverbs 2:21-22-- The blameless and upright will be left over on the earth.  Matthew 24:22-- Unless those days were cut short( Trib-Har-mageddon) no flesh would be saved.

The new earth=Gods kingdom in full control forever( Dan 23:44) back to his original plan.


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## ABikerSailor (Nov 29, 2017)

God doesn't need a hell.  Christians do, because if they don't have something to scare people with, they won't get any more converts. 

Know why Christians think hell is full of fire?  Because fire one of the worst ways that a human being can die.


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## Death Angel (Nov 29, 2017)

kjw47 said:


> You must have missed these 2 truths that teach the opposite of your post--- Proverbs 2:21-22-- The blameless and upright will be left over on the earth. Matthew 24:22-- Unless those days were cut short( Trib-Har-mageddon) no flesh would be saved.
> 
> The new earth=Gods kingdom in full control forever( Dan 23:44) back to his original plan.


There is no discrepancy between the scriptures you post and what I said. You're not fully understanding, it seems.

What you are in error on is that you (or anyone else), don't have an immortal soul. Eternal life is the GIFT of God. Those who will not inherit the Kingdom will PERISH in the Lake of Fire.

God does not torture His creation. That is a teaching from the devil, not Jesus.


----------



## Death Angel (Nov 29, 2017)

ABikerSailor said:


> God doesn't need a hell.  Christians do, because if they don't have something to scare people with, they won't get any more converts.
> 
> Know why Christians think hell is full of fire?  Because fire one of the worst ways that a human being can die.


*those eighteen who died when the tower in Siloam fell on them—do you think they were more guilty than all the others living in Jerusalem?5 I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish.”--Jesus*


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## Mickiel (Nov 29, 2017)

God does not need a hell, and he does not need Christians either.


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## kjw47 (Nov 30, 2017)

Death Angel said:


> kjw47 said:
> 
> 
> > You must have missed these 2 truths that teach the opposite of your post--- Proverbs 2:21-22-- The blameless and upright will be left over on the earth. Matthew 24:22-- Unless those days were cut short( Trib-Har-mageddon) no flesh would be saved.
> ...




Yes I know the soul is not immortal, I am not in error. as well as no place of eternal suffering. Few know these facts. These are nice to know, but do you know the true living God?


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## Lysistrata (Nov 30, 2017)

This whole this debate is so stupid. They have a "father god" but no "mother god." A "son of god" but no daughter of god. What a waste religion is.


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## Mickiel (Nov 30, 2017)

Lysistrata said:


> This whole this debate is so stupid. They have a "father god" but no "mother god." A "son of god" but no daughter of god. What a waste religion is.




I think religion is a waste.


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## Lysistrata (Nov 30, 2017)

Mickiel said:


> Lysistrata said:
> 
> 
> > This whole this debate is so stupid. They have a "father god" but no "mother god." A "son of god" but no daughter of god. What a waste religion is.
> ...


It is. Just what is the logic of this thing?


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## Mickiel (Nov 30, 2017)

There is no logic in God eternally co-existing with things he does not like.


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## ABikerSailor (Nov 30, 2017)

Lysistrata said:


> This whole this debate is so stupid. They have a "father god" but no "mother god." A "son of god" but no daughter of god. What a waste religion is.



Actually, in the Bible, it states that the Earth is supposed to be God's bride. 

Might be one reason she's called Mother Earth. 

But, if God comes back and sees how badly we've mistreated His Bride, He might be a bit pissed.


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## Lysistrata (Nov 30, 2017)

ABikerSailor said:


> Lysistrata said:
> 
> 
> > This whole this debate is so stupid. They have a "father god" but no "mother god." A "son of god" but no daughter of god. What a waste religion is.
> ...


Such stupid metaphor. In creation there is no masculine without the feminine. These "religions" set up a masculine model without the feminine model. It doesn't work, even if you have a Vatican and and fancy Michelangelo ceiling or some Southern Baptist dumpster in Alabama or Texas.


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## ABikerSailor (Nov 30, 2017)

Lysistrata said:


> ABikerSailor said:
> 
> 
> > Lysistrata said:
> ...



I guess you missed what I had said, so I'll try again...............

In the Bible, the female part of the creation is the Earth, because the Bible refers to the Earth as the Bride of God.   So, there is your feminine.

And, in Jewish religion, they believe in both a male and female aspect of God. 

Native American religions refer to Father Sky and Mother Earth. 

How many more examples of religion having both a male and female side do you need?


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## james bond (Dec 1, 2017)

Mickiel said:


> The Insanity of Hell | Love Wins Because God Is Love…



The unbelievers will always try to twist the truth.  A higher percentage of people believe in heaven than hell, but hell exists.

I like Jackson Pollock's early artwork called The Flame (1938).  It depicts hell on earth.  Do you see a skeleton or people in the flames?







Hell is very real because it exists on Earth.  We know God exists because the wages of sin is death and we all must die.  There is final judgment.  After that is the eternity.


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## kjw47 (Dec 1, 2017)

ABikerSailor said:


> Lysistrata said:
> 
> 
> > This whole this debate is so stupid. They have a "father god" but no "mother god." A "son of god" but no daughter of god. What a waste religion is.
> ...




The bible assures all-- God will bring to ruin, those ruining his Earth.


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## kjw47 (Dec 1, 2017)

Lysistrata said:


> This whole this debate is so stupid. They have a "father god" but no "mother god." A "son of god" but no daughter of god. What a waste religion is.




There are no mates or mating in heaven.


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## ABikerSailor (Dec 1, 2017)

You know, there is a famous quote, and Billy Joel even made a song about it.

It's called "Only the Good Die Young".  And, as a quote, it has been said many times. 

Anyone ever consider that the reason the good die young is because we are actually in hell right now, and when we finish with this, we will go to heaven?


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## Death Angel (Dec 1, 2017)

ABikerSailor said:


> Anyone ever consider that the reason the good die young is because we are actually in hell right now, and when we finish with this, we will go to heaven?


No. You're NOT in Hell. You are being JUDGED in this MORTAL life as your Creator evaluates your character.

He is asking Himself, do I really want to grant this physical creature eternal life?


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## ABikerSailor (Dec 1, 2017)

Death Angel said:


> ABikerSailor said:
> 
> 
> > Anyone ever consider that the reason the good die young is because we are actually in hell right now, and when we finish with this, we will go to heaven?
> ...



There is no such thing as eternal life for human beings.  The best we can hope for is forever.  Why?  Because humans have a beginning.  Eternal beings don't.


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## Mickiel (Dec 8, 2017)

I have a question for anyone; do you need a place like this Christian hell?

I mean would YOU need such a place? Would you create such a place?

And if so, tell us Why??


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## Death Angel (Dec 8, 2017)

Mickiel said:


> And if so, tell us Why??


In the end, the world will be uninhabitable for physical life.

Man's destiny is to be BORN AGAIN as literal sons of God, Jesus is the First Born of MANY BRETHREN.

This present world is destined to perish in fire (the Bible calls it the Lake of Fire).

When the world has been purified, mortal Man will no longer exist -- only the Sons of  God (those Born Again in the Resurrection).


----------



## Mickiel (Dec 8, 2017)

Death Angel said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > And if so, tell us Why??
> ...




All humans are the sons of God. The whole earth is the Lords, and the fullnest of it; fullnest means the people.


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## Mickiel (Dec 12, 2017)

Christians are so condemning and condescending.


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## Mickiel (Dec 14, 2017)

Mickiel said:


> Christians are so condemning and condescending.




The Christian doctrine of hell condemns more people to damnation than any other religion that I know of.


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## Mickiel (Dec 14, 2017)

Maybe the Christian god can use Detroit instead of the perceived place for hell; I don't know really, because Detroit may be too small for trillions of humans. Maybe Detroit , Chicargo, New York, Philly, California, and  Mobile. We can turn all those cities into lakes of fire. If the poor human sufferers don't turn into super beings, they will never escape. I suggest that because if the Christian version of hell is true, those human sufferers must become formidable. They will be standing on their feet for billions and trillions of years, they must will develop legs like the incredible Hulk.

They won't stand in just one spot, so they perhaps will swim in the incredibly hot lake of fire, like Aqua man. They will be able to breathe the fire, like the human torch their skin will burn but never combust! To be able to stand the pain for all of eternity, they must have the constitution of superman!

Hey, on second thought they may be able to escape one year, so I would not want to be one of the guards there, because after 999,874,087,342 trillion years of punishment, these super things may just be very mad and angry; I wonder if the Christian understanding of eternal hell have considered this possibility?


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## Mickiel (Dec 15, 2017)

Why would God need a hell?

For your reading pleasure;


http://bible-truths.com/23-minutes-in-hell.html

http://www.thehypertexts.com/How many tines is hell mentioned in% Bible.htm20the


http://www.biblerealitycheck.com/caseagainsthell.htm


http://www.thehypertexts.com/How%20many%20tines%20is%20hell%20mentioned%20in%20the%20Bible.htm


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## Mickiel (Dec 18, 2017)

Why create humans and put them in a world to live which is hard and a type of hell, then have them die and go to a much worse hell?


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## Mickiel (Dec 19, 2017)

Mickiel said:


> Why create humans and put them in a world to live which is hard and a type of hell, then have them die and go to a much worse hell?




The Christian concept of hell is " Over Kill", which is one way you can know its not of God, God does not " Over punish." To punish a human without end, is simply over kill, no doubt about it. Do you know how long " Forever would be?" It would be far longer than 999 trillion years. Now look, be reasonable, have some kind of sense in your mind, goodness;  999 trillion years plus 563 billion years plus 321 million years still would not equal an eternity of punishing. You think God is stupid or totally insane?

Religion may be insane, but God is not.


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## Lysistrata (Dec 19, 2017)

I'm still trying to figure out how a Supreme Being could create lesser beings, then get mad at them, and condemn them to some awful place for eternity. I'm also still trying to figure out how such a Being could have a child (without a mommy), and then send this child to earth to be tortured as a sacrifice *to himself! *Unless there is another god floating around somewhere, all the God of the bible would have to do is leave a sticky note on his shaving mirror: "Note to self: forgive these idiots I created. Before breakfast." Daddy's son had to sacrifice himself to Daddy when Daddy had all the power in the first place? Now, if there was another god somewhere, this scenario might, just might, start making sense.


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## Mickiel (Dec 22, 2017)

Condemnation is the Christian way of threatening people to change their lives. Its " Witnessing stupid", a foul way to try and manipulate unbelievers. Its ignorant marketing and ugly misuse of the bible itself.


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## Mickiel (Dec 23, 2017)

Christianity has just messed up all avenues to the truth;  they are, ( unknowingly), misleading their members with  lie after lie. The devil has entered this church and feed the whole world their nonsense; spreading lies that they have been seduced into thinking the lies are the truth.


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## Mickiel (Dec 24, 2017)

Hell is a Christian myth;  its what THEY would do to sinners;

Hell is the Christian way to rid themselves of human trash.


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## Mickiel (Dec 29, 2017)

Hell is the Christian human marshmellow  roast.


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## Mickiel (Dec 31, 2017)

Notice these interesting " Hell graphs."


Religious Landscape Study


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## Mickiel (Jan 23, 2018)

Mickiel said:


> Notice these interesting " Hell graphs."
> 
> 
> Religious Landscape Study



God would not even put dogs in this Christian hell, much less humans. Christianity would have us believe that he will do to us, what he would not even do to dogs.


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## daisiesRwild (Jan 27, 2018)

We have free will and there is a choice between God whose afterlife is in heaven and Satan whose afterlife is in Hell.  You do the math...


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## Mickiel (Jan 30, 2018)

daisiesRwild said:


> We have free will and there is a choice between God whose afterlife is in heaven and Satan whose afterlife is in Hell.  You do the math...




Free will is a Christian hoax;

Free Will: God's Gift or Curse?


----------



## daisiesRwild (Jan 31, 2018)

Mickiel said:


> daisiesRwild said:
> 
> 
> > We have free will and there is a choice between God whose afterlife is in heaven and Satan whose afterlife is in Hell.  You do the math...
> ...


silly there aer some that just get off on being evil its a choice God wants you to choose him he love s you


----------



## Mickiel (Jan 31, 2018)

daisiesRwild said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > daisiesRwild said:
> ...



Eventually God wants all to submit to him, but he just has a timetable to that; but were all going to be fine; because he loves us. We are not in the hellish hand beliefs of Christianity; no one is doomed.


----------



## daisiesRwild (Jan 31, 2018)

Mickiel said:


> daisiesRwild said:
> 
> 
> > Mickiel said:
> ...


unless jesus christ is you savior you are doomed


----------



## harmonica (Jan 31, 2018)

daisiesRwild said:


> We have free will and there is a choice between God whose afterlife is in heaven and Satan whose afterlife is in Hell.  You do the math...


we don't have total free will
if so, why do males commit over 85% of murders? 
why do blacks commit murder at over FOUR times the rate of whites?
please answer that


----------



## Dajjal (Jan 31, 2018)

daisiesRwild said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > daisiesRwild said:
> ...



Totally false Christian mythology. No better than Islam teaching that unbelievers in Muhammad will burn in eternal hell. The spirit world says there is no lasting hell, and they should know.


----------



## Dajjal (Jan 31, 2018)

daisiesRwild said:


> We have free will and there is a choice between God whose afterlife is in heaven and Satan whose afterlife is in Hell.  You do the math...


Is this what Jesus says to you ? because it is bunk.


----------



## daisiesRwild (Jan 31, 2018)

Dajjal said:


> daisiesRwild said:
> 
> 
> > We have free will and there is a choice between God whose afterlife is in heaven and Satan whose afterlife is in Hell.  You do the math...
> ...


you willing to be your life in eternal torment when you can ask Jesus to reveal himself to you and he will?


----------



## daisiesRwild (Jan 31, 2018)

harmonica said:


> daisiesRwild said:
> 
> 
> > We have free will and there is a choice between God whose afterlife is in heaven and Satan whose afterlife is in Hell.  You do the math...
> ...


ummm a big bully named Satan putting you in traps so you do not choose God and you have fallen in hook line and sinker


----------



## daisiesRwild (Jan 31, 2018)

Dajjal said:


> daisiesRwild said:
> 
> 
> > Mickiel said:
> ...


Jesus wouldnt be involved in any religion on earth cos they all were created with evil intent and all are corrupted


----------



## harmonica (Jan 31, 2018)

daisiesRwild said:


> harmonica said:
> 
> 
> > daisiesRwild said:
> ...


if you cannot explain it--and you can't --no free will


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## daisiesRwild (Jan 31, 2018)

harmonica said:


> daisiesRwild said:
> 
> 
> > harmonica said:
> ...


i did explain it learn how to read


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## ABikerSailor (Jan 31, 2018)

Hey dasiesRwild...............if a Buddhist follows all the tenants of their belief system, and live a good life, as well as never had heard of Christianity or Jesus, are they still going to hell even though they don't believe in it?

If so, why would a loving God (who is too big to be contained in just one belief system or dogma) deny that person entrance into their belief of Heaven?  Just because they never heard of Jesus?  Sounds like a mean God to me, not a loving one.  Why would He set up 2/3rds of the worlds population to fail?

But, happily, I'm not a Christian, I'm a Taoist who is also a retired Sailor.  I'm gonna opt for Fiddler's Green.  They have rum and marijuana there.  I'll let the judgemental Christians have Heaven, because Fiddler's Green sounds like a lot more fun.


----------



## daisiesRwild (Jan 31, 2018)

ABikerSailor said:


> Hey dasiesRwild...............if a Buddhist follows all the tenants of their belief system, and live a good life, as well as never had heard of Christianity or Jesus, are they still going to hell even though they don't believe in it?
> 
> If so, why would a loving God (who is too big to be contained in just one belief system or dogma) deny that person entrance into their belief of Heaven?  Just because they never heard of Jesus?  Sounds like a mean God to me, not a loving one.  Why would He set up 2/3rds of the worlds population to fail?
> 
> But, happily, I'm not a Christian, I'm a Taoist who is also a retired Sailor.  I'm gonna opt for Fiddler's Green.  They have rum and marijuana there.  I'll let the judgemental Christians have Heaven, because Fiddler's Green sounds like a lot more fun.


Jesus will be known thruout the world before he comes back duh... and I  think Taoism has no heart its blank good luck with that...


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## Taz (Feb 1, 2018)

God made hell, it's called "earth".


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## ABikerSailor (Feb 1, 2018)

daisiesRwild said:


> ABikerSailor said:
> 
> 
> > Hey dasiesRwild...............if a Buddhist follows all the tenants of their belief system, and live a good life, as well as never had heard of Christianity or Jesus, are they still going to hell even though they don't believe in it?
> ...



Why didn't you answer the question?  And, it's kinda obvious that you know nothing about Taoism.


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## daisiesRwild (Feb 2, 2018)

ABikerSailor said:


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i studied it before and it has no heart sorry


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## daisiesRwild (Feb 2, 2018)

Taz said:


> God made hell, it's called "earth".


lower earth perhaps


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## ABikerSailor (Feb 2, 2018)

daisiesRwild said:


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What is it that makes you say it has no heart?


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## daisiesRwild (Feb 2, 2018)

ABikerSailor said:


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there wasnt anything personal about it inmy opinion


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## ABikerSailor (Feb 2, 2018)

daisiesRwild said:


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Then you either had a crappy teacher, or you didn't understand what it was about.  Tao covers 360 degrees of viewpoints, and many of them are nuanced.  And, one of the other things that is taught is that balance is a required thing that one must have.  

"Nothing gave birth to the One, and the One gave birth to the ten thousand things".


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## Mickiel (Feb 3, 2018)

ABikerSailor said:


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I think the God gave birth to the man and then the woman. Through Mitrocondrinen DNA we know they both were mid brown skinned humans in Africa; thus began the entire civilization of colorful humanity. The cradle of human development, with Egypt becoming the first real civilization.  Such is my view.


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## Mickiel (Feb 8, 2018)

The Christian contribution to this sick world, is they gave the world the sick concept of eternal hell punishing. They created this sick serious doctrine of devils. How is that going to help someone?


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## Mickiel (Jun 2, 2018)

Mickiel said:


> The Christian contribution to this sick world, is they gave the world the sick concept of eternal hell punishing. They created this sick serious doctrine of devils. How is that going to help someone?



The sickening thing is that even some believers in God have been seduced into thinking that their concept of hell - helps humanity? Nothing could be more evil than a punishing hell that last forever.


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## irosie91 (Jun 2, 2018)

Mickiel said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > The Christian contribution to this sick world, is they gave the world the sick concept of eternal hell punishing. They created this sick serious doctrine of devils. How is that going to help someone?
> ...



for the record----muslims do an ETERNAL HELL too---but then----so did romans and greeks.    Interestingly---Hindus do-----second and third and X(repeat chances)   <as X approaches infinity>      So place the
blame where it really belongs------first DA GREEK FREAKS and later their jealous copycats----DA ROMANS


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## MarathonMike (Jun 2, 2018)

Nothing is more motivating to build your flock than the threat of eternal torture.


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## kjw47 (Jun 2, 2018)

Mickiel said:


> Mickiel said:
> 
> 
> > The Christian contribution to this sick world, is they gave the world the sick concept of eternal hell punishing. They created this sick serious doctrine of devils. How is that going to help someone?
> ...




The NT does say a place of eternal suffering. It was symbolism. A description of the value lost by each one thrown into the lake of fire( destroyed)-- As each new day dawns in Gods kingdom they will miss each new dawning day, and be cut off from God--day after day, it never ends, Is the value of it being likened to eternal suffering. 
You are right about a literal eternal suffering being evil. Only a Sadist God would do such a thing. The true living God' justice scales make a literal eternal suffering an impossibility. Those teaching that sadist God, do not know God.


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## Jessica123 (Jun 2, 2018)

This god is evil and vengeful over every tiny thing. He needs a hell because it makes him feel good about himself punishing his creation over stupid shit.

It is like kicking your dog for barking.


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## Gracie (Jun 2, 2018)

Jessica123 said:


> This god is evil and vengeful over every tiny thing. He needs a hell because it makes him feel good about himself punishing his creation over stupid shit.
> 
> It is like kicking your dog for barking.


Hi sttab.


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## irosie91 (Jun 2, 2018)

Jessica123 said:


> This god is evil and vengeful over every tiny thing. He needs a hell because it makes him feel good about himself punishing his creation over stupid shit.
> 
> It is like kicking your dog for barking.



Jess---DO NOT KICK your dog for barking--------the poor little thing does
what comes NATURALLY.    ....."god"
needs to FEEL GOOD about himself.....
sheeeeeeesh-----


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## Picaro (Jun 2, 2018)

Spam from the insane is less than interesting.


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## irosie91 (Jun 2, 2018)

Picaro said:


> Spam from the insane is less than interesting.



how do you know?    The delusions and even the Hallucinations of persons suffering from psychosis are very interesting. They do not arise out of THIN AIR.  ---they arise from the deepest,  
buried experiences in the mind of the afflicted.-----deep deep memories.


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## ding (Jun 2, 2018)

Jessica123 said:


> This god is evil and vengeful over every tiny thing. He needs a hell because it makes him feel good about himself punishing his creation over stupid shit.
> 
> It is like kicking your dog for barking.


I'm sure you can question him when you meet him.


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## Gracie (Jun 2, 2018)

If not sttab...its Matthew. He is the only one I know of that praised God and in the next sentence, bashes Him.


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## james bond (Jun 2, 2018)

Mickiel said:


> Mickiel said:
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> > The Christian contribution to this sick world, is they gave the world the sick concept of eternal hell punishing. They created this sick serious doctrine of devils. How is that going to help someone?
> ...



Too much ignorance here.  There are two schools of thought in Christianity.  Catholic vs Christians.

Christians

Catholics


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## kjw47 (Jun 3, 2018)

Jessica123 said:


> This god is evil and vengeful over every tiny thing. He needs a hell because it makes him feel good about himself punishing his creation over stupid shit.
> 
> It is like kicking your dog for barking.





Jesus showed all the Love that God has for his creation.... The point--its his creation, He has every right to say what goes on in it. He warned all in the bible. Its their fault if they do not know what it teaches.
He accepts 0 sin. Sin = worship to satan.


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## abrere (Jun 3, 2018)

why would a god bother to make humans in the first place? and since he's all knowing, he would have known that she was going to eat the fruit, etc. All religious are a farce, man, any 12 year old kid can see that.


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## Mickiel (Jun 7, 2018)

james bond said:


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Bible Reality Check--A Case Against Hell


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## Taz (Jun 7, 2018)

Mickiel said:


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So more proof that the NT is bullshit. Thanks.


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## Mickiel (Jun 7, 2018)

Taz said:


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Well  I can see and respect that its not your thing, but I kind of dig it myself;

Why You Can Believe the Bible


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## james bond (Jun 7, 2018)

Mickiel said:


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She is correct about sheol or hades.  This is a dark place where Jesus went after he died physically.  We all go to sheol and wait until being judged.  However, the writer doesn't realize there is another place called gehenna (hell).  Those who do not believe in Jesus and that he died to save us become the spiritually dead.  At physical death, our spirits are separated from our bodies.  Being spiritually dead means your soul is separated from God.  Once you die, then your final destination is set, but it won't be until Judgement Day that we'll be judged.  The spiritually dead won't be able to rise into the sky and they'll see their perfect bodies burn in the lake of fire.  Now, whether their spirits are in the body and suffer burning is not made clear, but it's not a pleasant experience.  I'm not sure what happens after that.  I have to think that Jesus has some fitting punishment to fit the unholiness committed by that person.  Catholics believe there is place in purgatory where souls who aren't so bad can be saved.  For others, such as babies who died before being baptized, they will go to limbo a less ominous place in hell.  Christians think it's either one or the other and no place for Jesus to send you to do repentance for the final time.  One needs guidance from more experienced readers of the Bible to understand it.


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## Taz (Jun 8, 2018)

james bond said:


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"Those who do not believe in Jesus and that he died to save us become the spiritually dead."

Let me guess, you read that in a book of fiction?


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## james bond (Jun 8, 2018)

Taz said:


> james bond said:
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james bond said:


> "Those who do not believe in Jesus and that he died to save us become the spiritually dead."



Is it really fiction?  Can you disprove the spirit, i.e. that what keeps us alive, using science?

You remember that I said that I compared both evolution, includes ToE, and creation and thought creation better explained reality.

Let's theorize that there exists spirits (not ghosts) and that is what keeps us alive. Secular science has not explained how we are alive unless you have an explanation.  We can't bring back someone who is dead.  That's sci fi.

...

It means that when we physically die, then the spirit leaves us.  Thus, we have a physically dead body.  However, we assume the spirit dies, too.  Whatever keeps our heart beating, oxygen going to the brain, blood and nutrients going to the cells ceases to work anymore.  The personality or how they were perceived by others and any legacy that they left is gone, too.  All the living can do is have memories of that person.  That's what life and science tells us.

However, the Bible tells us that's not what happens.  The spirit still lives and goes to a place called sheol or hades, a dark resting place.  The spirit is still conscious, but does not have a body so can't go anywhere.  Otherwise, how does a spirit die?

I'll stop here in order to see what you think.


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## Taz (Jun 9, 2018)

james bond said:


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"The spirit still lives and goes to a place called sheol or hades, a dark resting place." And it's total hearsay, none of the big things in the bible can be proven.

Science at least is still looking, they don't just settle on some fairy tales for no reason.


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## james bond (Jun 9, 2018)

Taz said:


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If you state that, then it's like a creation scientist saying that we didn't evolve from a single cell fairy tale.  A theory has to have some assumption or hypothesis based on the evidence of what we find exists.  After all, no one has shown that a single cell can become a person or an animal.  We did not see this.  Thus, from the evidence we assume in evolution that eukaryotic cells evolved after millions of years into animal, plant and fungi mitochondria cells.

Thus, based on the Bible creation scientists accept that our spirit still lives and goes to a place called sheol, a dark resting place.  Then, they look for the evidence just like the evo scientists did.  We find through neurology that people are conscious of their own death.

"*Consciousness after death *

Death just became even more scary: scientists say people are aware they’re dead because their consciousness continues to work after the body has stopped showing signs of life.

That means that, theoretically, someone may even hear their own death being announced by medics.

The claim was made by Dr Sam Parnia, director of critical care and resuscitation research at NYU Langone School of Medicine in New York City.

He and his team are looking at people who suffered cardiac arrest, technically died, but were later revived. It’s the largest study of its type ever carried out.

Some of those studied say they had awareness of full conversations and seeing things that were going on around them, even after they were pronounced dead.

These accounts were then verified by the medical and nursing staff who were present at the time.

Death is defined as the point at which the heart no longer beats, and blood flow to the brain is cut
off. Dr Sam Parnia said: “Technically, that's how you get the time of death – it's all based on the moment when the heart stops.


“Once that happens, blood no longer circulates to the brain, which means brain function halts almost instantaneously.

“You lose all your brain stem reflexes – your gag reflex, your pupil reflex, all that is gone.”

However, there’s evidence to suggest that there’s a burst of brain energy as someone dies.

In 2013 researchers at the University of Michigan looked at the electrical signals inside the brains of nine anaesthetised rats having an induced heart attack."

pediatric neurology: Consciousness after death

What about sheol or hades?  Hades is a place under the earth or a grave for our spirits.  (Our physical bodies are buried or burned and put in an urn, scattered or transformed.)

Where is it?  First, it's not those pits that release gases and ignited and continue to burn for a long time.  That describes hell, and is shaped like the hell in Dante's illustrations, but hell isn't on earth despite what you have heard.  This I agree is hearsay or mythology even though the fiery pits are real.  However, there are various places on Earth where people think they are the portals to hell.  These portals have been explored and they lead to a dark mysterious place that keep going and going until one can't continue.  These are the places which we think is hades.  We don't know the exact location, but it's deep underground.


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## Taz (Jun 10, 2018)

james bond said:


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Evolution is called a theory for a reason.

Consciousness after death has never been proven to be any thing other than the brain taking a little longer to shut off. 

"These portals have been explored and they lead to a dark mysterious place that keep going and going until one can't continue. " This has never been proven. 

So basically, everything you've put forward can only by classified under "just a theory". Not fact.


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## james bond (Jun 10, 2018)

Taz said:


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Science isn't about proofs, but who has the best theory.  Math is about proofs.

Consciousness can't go beyond the line between life and death because we don't know what happens after one dies or passes the point of no return.  We only know what we know about consciousness because these people came back to life.  In the future, we may find some way or an experiment to know but not now.

If we are discussing creation science, then it's a theory.  Facts are something we can all use such as the sky is blue.  The earth is a sphere.  Math was invented by humans, but is found in nature.

One of the areas, creation scientists are looking at is whether there is a 4th dimension and how spacetime is represented.  We understand 2-dimensions very well because we are 3-dimensional beings.  We see things in 2-D, but our brains convert it to 3-D.  However, we have a harder time envisioning 4-D objects.  Not impossible, but not intuitive.  We are doing experiments with the LHC trying to see if there is a gravitron.  If the gravitron particle is discovered, then it is likely that the 4th dimension exists.  This is where I believe God exists.
Thus, we assume that a hell exists for the angels who rose up against God and are fallen.  This may or may not be the same hell (gehenna) that God will create after Judgement Day for human spirits or the spiritually dead.  It is likely that it will be in the 4th dimension.


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## Taz (Jun 10, 2018)

james bond said:


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How do you make the link between a being possibly found in a 4th dimension, and the god of the bible?


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## ABikerSailor (Jun 10, 2018)

Taz said:


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Actually, that's kinda easy.  The Sefirot number 10, and they each control a different part of creation and the higher dimensions.  Kabbalah can explain it for you, but that is some deep stuff if you do. 

Sefirot - Wikipedia

Wiki gives you a rough outline of it, but if you REALLY wanna delve into the subject, I would suggest using the Sacred Texts Archive that is on the internet.


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## james bond (Jun 10, 2018)

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Perhaps it's difficult for you to understand because you are not treating the spiritual lving and dead it as a theory.  You only live twice.  Many people believe in an afterlife.

The link goes back to the title of this thread.  Jesus said that hell was “prepared” for Satan and the demons (Matthew 25:41).  It is a just punishment for the wicked one.  Hell, or the lake of fire, will also be the destination for those who reject Christ and were evil people.  Hell isn't found on earth.  It doesn't appear to be in our universe.  It seems to be where God is in the heavenly realm.


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## Mickiel (Jun 17, 2018)

james bond said:


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Those who reject Christ and the evil humans , actually " Need" Christ more than you believers do. You cannot remove them from the incredible grace of God. I am glad that you have absolutely nothing to do with their salvation.


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## Gracie (Jun 17, 2018)

james bond said:


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We are already in hell. Heaven is absence of all this bullshit.

"On earth as it is in heaven", when the time comes.


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## Mickiel (Jun 17, 2018)

Gracie said:


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Amen. Very well stated! Nothing like the Christian hell was even remotely mentioned  or suggested to Adam, Eve, Noah, Abraham , Lot, Moses, David , Solomon , Cain , or even the people of Sodom.  There is no mention of the creation of hell in the entire NT , or even the purpose of it. And its nowhere in the entire OT; is that not strange? Hell is not explained and no one is " Threatened with it as well."


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## Mickiel (Jun 17, 2018)

Gracie said:


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Yes, the Christians want us to live in hell all our lives , then die and go to an even worse hell.

Good grief.


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## james bond (Jun 18, 2018)

Mickiel said:


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Maybe they do, but it's up to them to seek Jesus and be saved.  Will they actually change their ways and talk the talk and walk the walk?  Otherwise, they have the trial by fire and lake of fire to contend with.


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## james bond (Jun 18, 2018)

Gracie said:


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We are on the fallen earth.  Maybe we are in that I've heard some people say that we make our own hell on earth.  However, the Bible says that hell (gehenna) doesn't exist on earth.  The grave (hades) exists on earth.  Hell for Satan and the fallen angels and those humans doomed to hell will come later.


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## Nia88 (Jun 19, 2018)

It’s actually petty when you think of hell. God is the one who is supposed to create people’s destinys, so why only some to be guided into his light while making others disbelievers.

Why should I go to hell because he decreed I don’t believe in him?

It’s really messed up when you think about it.

Why doesn’t God make us all believers so we can go to heaven?


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## james bond (Jun 19, 2018)

Mickiel said:


> Gracie said:
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It's mentioned several times in the Bible.  Most versions, it thirteen times in the NT.

One of the key ones is OT Romans 6:23
"23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."

Death means spiritually dead and the spiritually dead will go into the lake of fire.  Hell or gehenna, directly stated, isn't in the OT.

NT Matthew 25:41
"41 Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels."

Is hell real? Is hell eternal?

Finally, the Bible scholars don't think the audience for the Bible thought about heaven and hell that much.  They were more concerned with getting their next meal and being in a comfortable home.  Today, believers do not think about heaven and hell that much.  While it is a topic of interest and debate, we do not know what it entails.  Here's some of my takes.  Heaven, originally was on earth with God and Adam and Eve.  There was a heaven where God resided, but that was a different place than the paradise on earth.  If Adam and Eve had not sinned, then there would be a lot of peoples living in heaven today.  However, after the original sin, we were fallen and death was created.  If only Adam and Eve had strong faith in God, then I don't think they would've sinned.  Today, we have John 3:16 as the starting point.  We have to atone for our sins and change our behavior in order to be redeemed.  Through our faith and good works, we will try to be as holy as we can through help from the Holy Spirit.  And then if we reach heaven, then Jesus' hand on our shoulder deems us holy enough to approach and be greeted by God the Father on his throne.


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## Mickiel (Jun 19, 2018)

Nia88 said:


> It’s actually petty when you think of hell. God is the one who is supposed to create people’s destinys, so why only some to be guided into his light while making others disbelievers.
> 
> Why should I go to hell because he decreed I don’t believe in him?
> 
> ...




Hello Nia88,

God does not make us all believers because he knows that he does not need to. God knows and is aware that he will save All of mankind, 1 Tim.2:3-4, " For God our Saviour has accepted it as a good thing that all men be saved and eventually come to understand the real truth." The real truth is 1 Tim. 4:10, " God is the actual savior of ALL MEN, ( which is literal , meaning everybody), specially those who believe. " Those who believe are somewhat special because they are among the first wave of humans to believe,  but this verse shows a definite distinction in that there are two groups of humanity saved; Believers, and then every one else. Which is stunning amazing grace. ALL Men , and especially believers; its very clear, but many salvation robbers will try to exclude unbelievers from this, but they cannot, its already sealed. That is the true meaning of Col. 3:11, where Christ is described as being ALL- and IN ALL Humans! Unbelievers cannot take Christ out of selfish stuck up blinded believers, and believers cannot remove Christ from blinded unbelievers; both groups have an issue with blindness.


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## JohnPrewett (Jun 19, 2018)

never mind hell .... it's the lake of fire one should seriously seek to avoid.   

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God. Books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. The dead were judged according to their works as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one by his works. 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.


6 He said to me, “It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. I will give of the spring of the water of life to him who thirsts. 7 He who overcomes shall inherit all things, and I will be his God and he shall be My son. 8 But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the abominable, the murderers, the sexually immoral, the sorcerers, the idolaters, and all liars shall have their portion in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone. This is the second death.”


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## hobelim (Jun 20, 2018)

JohnPrewett said:


> never mind hell .... it's the lake of fire one should seriously seek to avoid.
> 
> 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God. Books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. The dead were judged according to their works as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one by his works. 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.
> 
> ...



sounds very scary.....lol


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## Mickiel (Jun 21, 2018)

No need to try to avoid the Lake of Fire , because everyone must be salted  with fire , THAT lake of fire; so its beneficial  to us all. All of God's use of fire is not dangerous.


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