# 51 Hours Left to Live



## Cmdr Sheppard (Mar 6, 2011)

I saw this thread on Facepunch and found it interesting, so now I'm sharing it. A man is going to commit suicide in 51 hours, well actually about 34 hours now, and he's online answering questions about his life, his disease, assisted suicide, and various other things, before he pulls the plug on himself.

The man, known as 'Lucidending' on Reddit is suffering from an incurable form of cancer and is in a lot of pain, and so he wants to just end his suffering now with dignity. He lives in Oregon, where it is legal to kill yourself under certain circumstances, and his doctor is setting things up so all he has to do is push a button and he'll be injected with drugs that will kill him.

reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/fy6yz/51_hours_left_to_live/


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## AllieBaba (Mar 6, 2011)

Fucking Oregon.

Try to talk him out of it. *Legal* suicides are still just suicides, and *assisted* suicide is just legalized murder.


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## Mr Natural (Mar 6, 2011)

There's a big difference between living and being alive.


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## Luissa (Mar 6, 2011)

AllieBaba said:


> Fucking Oregon.
> 
> Try to talk him out of it. *Legal* suicides are still just suicides, and *assisted* suicide is just legalized murder.



You would think of it like that.
I hope you never have to live through what this man is living  through.
No one should be forced to go through that if they don't have to.


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## Luissa (Mar 6, 2011)

> I'm given medication by the doctor to self administer. I already have the iv so it should be easy. I don't have a home, it was consumed in medical bills. I have made final arrangements. Last thought is too personal sorry. No religious beliefs to mention


This is from his posts. I really like the fact he lost his house. I hope he has a peaceful death, and goes quickly.


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## AllieBaba (Mar 6, 2011)

Luissa said:


> AllieBaba said:
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> > Fucking Oregon.
> ...


 
Fuck off, you crack whore. You have no idea of what I've had to live through or what I've witnessed.

BTW, everyone can opt to kill themselves at any time. When the state condones it, it's just state sponsored murder. You should look into the egregious abuses that went on in the Netherlands when they decided to embrace eugenics. Er..I mean, euthanasia. Particularly post-birth abortion and non-consensual euthanasia. Not that you would care, I'm sure you have no problem with the slaughter of people who are viewed as a burden to someone..anyone...even themselves...


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## Luissa (Mar 6, 2011)

AllieBaba said:


> Luissa said:
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crack whore? really?
I deal with end of life care every day in my job, death is terrible. If people want to die, the state should not be allowed to tell them what they and their doctor  can do.


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## AllieBaba (Mar 6, 2011)

Luissa said:


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The state never did, you retard. That's a lie perpetrated by people who want to practice genetic engineering and eugenics.

They count on brain-dead Lusers, btw.


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## Luissa (Mar 6, 2011)

AllieBaba said:


> Luissa said:
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Really, the state never said assisted suicide is illegal?
And I had no idea death with dignity translated into eugenics.


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## Greenbeard (Mar 6, 2011)

AllieBaba said:


> You should look into the egregious abuses that went on in the Netherlands when they decided to embrace eugenics. Er..I mean, euthanasia.



Helping a dying man to end his life on his own terms instead of suffering and waiting to die at the whim of his disease is not eugenics.


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## Paulie (Mar 6, 2011)

Someone help me understand where the fuck personal politics even fits into a story like this.

Dude doesn't want to be alive anymore.  

Fuck your opinions.


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## AllieBaba (Mar 6, 2011)

Greenbeard said:


> AllieBaba said:
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> > You should look into the egregious abuses that went on in the Netherlands when they decided to embrace eugenics. Er..I mean, euthanasia.
> ...


 
Sure it's not. And it's just a coinicidence that the biggest and best support for *assisted suicide* comes from places and people who support eugenics.


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## AllieBaba (Mar 6, 2011)

Paulie said:


> Someone help me understand where the fuck personal politics even fits into a story like this.
> 
> Dude doesn't want to be alive anymore.
> 
> Fuck your opinions.


 
Fuck your opinion.

Dude doesn't want to live anymore and opt out of the politics of it, dude would OD on heroin (and I'm sure Luser would be ok w/helping him score) or blast his brains out.

Dude enlists the assistance of other people, opens up a chatline on the internet, dude is political.


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## Cmdr Sheppard (Mar 6, 2011)

AllieBaba said:


> Fucking Oregon.
> 
> Try to talk him out of it. *Legal* suicides are still just suicides, and *assisted* suicide is just legalized murder.



How about you say that when you have untreatable terminal cancer, can't even get out of your hospital bed, are a burden on your family, and are in excruciating pain?


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## xsited1 (Mar 6, 2011)

Fascinating.  He doesn't believe in an afterlife and he's scared to death.  He's gotten over 2000 replies from all corners of the globe.  Here's one:


It looks like he's gotten approval from several doctors.  Wow.


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## Luissa (Mar 6, 2011)

Cmdr Sheppard said:


> AllieBaba said:
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> > Fucking Oregon.
> ...



I took care of a guy this summer, had no family. I would  go to his house for three hours a day. I would come at 11am every day, one morning I found him on his living room  floor. He had been on the floor since 6pm the night before, and had been sitting in his own BM for most of that time. I wouldn't wish that on anyone. And if he wanted to kill  himself, I  sure as hell wouldn't want my state tell him he couldn't.


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## Finnguy (Mar 6, 2011)

AllieBaba said:


> Paulie said:
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> > Someone help me understand where the fuck personal politics even fits into a story like this.
> ...



He is educating people about doctor assisted suicide. A lot of people don't know much about it because few know people who have done it. He is also trying to make others lives better through his death by sharing experiences and reminiscing.


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## Midnight Marauder (Mar 6, 2011)

Paulie said:


> Dude doesn't want to be alive anymore.


Sure he does. Have you read his postings?

He doesn't want to be alive anymore _with this disease_.


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## AllieBaba (Mar 6, 2011)

Finnguy said:


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So he's political.
Thanks.


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## AllieBaba (Mar 6, 2011)

Luissa said:


> Cmdr Sheppard said:
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The state could care less if he killed himself. It is the state's job, however, to prosecute others who would kill him.

BTW, life is full of crap episodes; my dad fell into an outhouse when he was 3 and spent an unpleasant period of time in shit up to his neck before his mother finally found him. I wouldn't wish that on anyone, either. But I wouldn't kill them to save them from the risk of it ever happening again. Just because it's unpleasant for you to think about doesn't mean you get to off all the people in misery.


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## Modbert (Mar 6, 2011)

AllieBaba said:


> BTW, life is full of crap episodes; my dad fell into an outhouse when he was 3 and spent an unpleasant period of time in shit up to his neck before his mother finally found him. I wouldn't wish that on anyone, either. But I wouldn't kill them to save them from the risk of it ever happening again. Just because it's unpleasant for you to think about doesn't mean you get to off all the people in misery.



I don't think I would consider having cancer for six years, and having it spread to my brain even after having multiple surgeries to be a "crap episode" but maybe that's just me.


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## Modbert (Mar 6, 2011)

AllieBaba said:


> So he's political.
> Thanks.



After all the talk about jumping to conclusions without knowing all the facts, you certainly have no problem with doing so when it suits you.


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## PixieStix (Mar 6, 2011)

If it wasn't political, then he could just be quiet and die with the dignity he says he seeks

It is political. Probably the ultimate political statement


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## AllieBaba (Mar 6, 2011)

Modbert said:


> AllieBaba said:
> 
> 
> > BTW, life is full of crap episodes; my dad fell into an outhouse when he was 3 and spent an unpleasant period of time in shit up to his neck before his mother finally found him. I wouldn't wish that on anyone, either. But I wouldn't kill them to save them from the risk of it ever happening again. Just because it's unpleasant for you to think about doesn't mean you get to off all the people in misery.
> ...


 
Logical fallacy. Has nothing to do with anything here. I was talking about one incident.

But thanks for pointing out that to people like you, rolling around in shit and having cancer are one and the same thing. No wonder you want those people to die. How inconvenient and nasty of them.


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## PixieStix (Mar 6, 2011)

Midnight Marauder said:


> Paulie said:
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> > Dude doesn't want to be alive anymore.
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No one wants a progressive disease of any sort, some learn to live their best and die quietly with no fan fare. Those people are heroes


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## Midnight Marauder (Mar 6, 2011)

Modbert said:


> I don't think I would consider having cancer


Yeah, me either. I'll pass.


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## Modbert (Mar 6, 2011)

PixieStix said:


> If it wasn't political, then he could just be quiet and die with the dignity he says he seeks
> 
> It is political. Probably the ultimate political statement



Have you even read the thread? No. Do you know the point of that subreddit on reddit? No.

Before speaking of things of which you have no knowledge of, perhaps it is best to take a step back.


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## PixieStix (Mar 6, 2011)

Finnguy said:


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I despise when people claim to be educating, when all they are doing is propagating an idea.


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## Dr Grump (Mar 6, 2011)

PixieStix said:


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Are you saying this guy isn't?


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## AllieBaba (Mar 6, 2011)

Wow. Irony thy name ith Slobbert.


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## KissMy (Mar 6, 2011)

Un-Believable - He has over 3,000 replies.

Why kill yourself hooked to an IV stuck inside a medical facility? Why not go with a trill? Skydive without a parachute or jump from a very tall bridge? What a rush that would be.


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## Modbert (Mar 6, 2011)

AllieBaba said:


> Logical fallacy. Has nothing to do with anything here. I was talking about one incident.
> 
> But thanks for pointing out that to people like you, rolling around in shit and having cancer are one and the same thing. No wonder you want those people to die. How inconvenient and nasty of them.



Except we're not talking about you're one incident, we're talking about what's being discussed in this thread. I don't wish anything like you're speaking of. I feel sorry for you since you're such a hateful and spiteful human being.


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## Modbert (Mar 6, 2011)

KissMy said:


> Un-Believable - He has over 3,000 replies.
> 
> Why kill yourself hooked to an IV stuck inside a medical facility? Why not go with a trill? Skydive without a parachute or jump from a very tall bridge? What a rush that would be.



Actually, he has over 7,500 at this point.


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## Modbert (Mar 6, 2011)

PixieStix said:


> No one wants a progressive disease of any sort, some learn to live their best and die quietly with no fan fare. Those people are heroes



I suppose we should just get rid of all awareness groups then. After all, how dare those people just don't simply die quietly with no fan fare. This has to be one of the dumbest posts I've read on here in awhile.


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## xotoxi (Mar 6, 2011)

PixieStix said:


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If those people are heroes, then what is this guy?

A loser?

A villain?

Evil?


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## xsited1 (Mar 6, 2011)

KissMy said:


> Un-Believable - He has over 3,000 replies.
> 
> Why kill yourself hooked to an IV stuck inside a medical facility? Why not go with a trill? Skydive without a parachute or jump from a very tall bridge? What a rush that would be.



I like the skydiving idea.  Strap a bunch of weights to your body and jump over the ocean.  That would be a burial at sea with a splash!


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## xotoxi (Mar 6, 2011)

PixieStix said:


> I despise when people claim to be educating, when all they are doing is propagating an idea.



What is educating if it is not that?


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## PixieStix (Mar 6, 2011)

Modbert said:


> PixieStix said:
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> > If it wasn't political, then he could just be quiet and die with the dignity he says he seeks
> ...



Ok, I read little of it, till your post. I feel bad for the man, but no more than I feel for a family member

I still  stand by my statement, because regardless of what his intent is. There are going to be those who will use him for their agenda for assisted suicide

I am pretty sure suicide will be glamorized before all is said and done. I am not alright with that


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## Modbert (Mar 6, 2011)

xotoxi said:


> If those people are heroes, then what is this guy?
> 
> A loser?
> 
> ...



Clearly he's a villain for trying to help people put their lives into perspective.

Lucidending comments on 51 hours left to live



> Question:
> 
> I'm reading this on my phone so haven't seen all comments so apologies if this has been asked already. There's an AMA going on started by someone who plans to commit suicide in the next few days. What, if anything would you say to him to try and get him to rethink things?
> I'm sorry to hear what you're going through. It's not of much significance but I'll be thinking of you. Best wishes.





> His answer:
> 
> I would tell him that it's not living that's failed him, it's life. We can always change our life as long as were living. He's addressing the wrong issue



Someone's reply to his answer:



> That's incredible...I'm going to have to bookmark this discussion for when I or loved ones start getting into suicidal thoughts. I've always been able to overcome them, but so many aren't able to. Thank you so much.



Another Question:



> Can I ask you a quick question if you don't mind? I've always wanted to ask someone at there end of life this question .
> I am very hesitant on improving my social skills with people. I am shy (and currently a college student who is a guy), but am trying to improve myself and meet more people and make more connections in the world.
> I feel like fear is what holds me back. I've always wanted to ask someone who is in there final end of life for wisdom on this.
> What would be your advice on taking chances and meeting new people? Or on Fear?
> Sorry if this sounds silly. I guess I just always wanted to ask someone like you this question. I hope you find peace wherever you are or in whatever happens next .



His answer:



> It doesn't. *Thank you for this, as it let's me live beyond my walls.* My question tonyounwould be this, what long term risk is there in saying hello? I can't find any. Worst case, is you get some possessive asshole that thinks your hitting on his sister and you get a black eye. Total pain and shame lasts maybe a month. Meeting the right girl though lasts forever.
> So you tell me, would youmtrade a month of shame for a life of happiness?



Another question:



> Other than answering our questions, what are you going to spend your last hours doing? And most of all, good luck, my friend. May you have the peace you deserve.



Another answer:



> I'm going to live. *This is as close to travel and meeting new people as I can get now.* I'm sorry if that sounds dumb but this is my world tour



To everyone who's saying this is political or has made negative comments without even bothering to read even part of the thread, screw you.


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## Luissa (Mar 6, 2011)

PixieStix said:


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Are agenda? To let people die the way they want to is terrible?


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## Luissa (Mar 6, 2011)

Modbert said:


> xotoxi said:
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> > If those people are heroes, then what is this guy?
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## AllieBaba (Mar 6, 2011)

Modbert said:


> AllieBaba said:
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> > Logical fallacy. Has nothing to do with anything here. I was talking about one incident.
> ...


 
Sure you do.

Otherwise, your post makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. And it's misspelled.


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## AllieBaba (Mar 6, 2011)

Luissa said:


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That's just another way of saying "murder is terrible?"

ASSISTED suicide isn't suicide at all. It's murder. Get over it.


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## Modbert (Mar 6, 2011)

PixieStix said:


> Ok, I read little of it, till your post. I feel bad for the man, but no more than I feel for a family member
> 
> I still  stand by my statement, because regardless of what his intent is*. There are going to be those who will use him for their agenda for assisted suicide*
> 
> I am pretty sure suicide will be glamorized before all is said and done. I am not alright with that



Glamorized? You clearly haven't even read any of it. Why not read the post I just made before saying this or that.

What I bolded has to be the dumbest statement you've made in this thread so far. You're going to judge this man off the basis of what others *might* do? Please tell me I'm reading this correctly because that is one of the stupidest things I've ever read on this website and I've been here for a long time and read a lot of posts.

Take a step back and think about what you're saying.


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## AllieBaba (Mar 6, 2011)

Modbert said:


> PixieStix said:
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> > No one wants a progressive disease of any sort, some learn to live their best and die quietly with no fan fare. Those people are heroes
> ...


 
Another logical fallacy.

And a particularly stupid one at that. There should be a class for logical fallacies that are so supremely ridiculous they deserve to be separated. Pretty much anything Podbert posts could be in that class.


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## Dr Grump (Mar 6, 2011)

PixieStix said:


> There are going to be those who will use him for their agenda for assisted suicide
> 
> I am pretty sure suicide will be glamorized before all is said and done. I am not alright with that



You know, I'm gonna take a stab in the dark that you know nothing about suicide. There is nothing glamorous about it - assisted or done on your own.

And I hope they do use him for the agenda of assisted suicide. Those on the right are always, always, always about personal choice and individual freedom - until the subjects of abortion or assisted suicide are mentioned...

People against assisted suicide usually fall into two categories.

1) Religious reasons. Unless they are the person who wants to die it is none else's business. It is not a good enough reason to stop them.
2) The 'slippery slope' argument. "What happens when the relatives of Aunt Doris, who is very sick, decide to pull the plug when she isn't incapable of answering for herself, and it turns out that maybe she was against suicide." That one doesn't wash either. Most advocates of assisted suicide are pretty adamant that the person who wants to die has stated so themselves. you cannot 'off' somebody just because you 'think' they want to die.


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## Dr Grump (Mar 6, 2011)

AllieBaba said:


> ASSISTED suicide isn't suicide at all. It's murder. Get over it.



Before opening your mouth, you should actually look on the statutes and sees what defines murder...It's manslaughter at most....


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## PixieStix (Mar 6, 2011)

Modbert said:


> xotoxi said:
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> > If those people are heroes, then what is this guy?
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Screw us? Nice...
I have life experiences that tell me you have no clue what you are talking about Modbert. I am experiencing some of these issues as we speak. Don't sit and pretend you can fathom any part of this issue

Dr. Gump..a stab in the dark for sure


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## AllieBaba (Mar 6, 2011)

Dr Grump said:


> AllieBaba said:
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> > ASSISTED suicide isn't suicide at all. It's murder. Get over it.
> ...


 
I don't give a crap what the statutes say. I understand that lobbyists can come up with a shitload of money and change definitions at any time. They just have to lie to enough retards like Modbert & Luser, who fall in without a murmur, rank and file, and suddenly infanticide and murder don't exist anymore! People with inconvenient illnesses can be *helped* to opt out...think of how much cleaner, shinier, and just more pleasant life will be!

I don't like it when they change the definition of marriage, and I don't like it when they change the definition of murder. And their changes mean exactly jack shit to me and to anybody else who thinks life is precious (and incidentally, who think marriage is worthy of protection).


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## PixieStix (Mar 6, 2011)

Modbert said:


> PixieStix said:
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> > Ok, I read little of it, till your post. I feel bad for the man, but no more than I feel for a family member
> ...



Stop pretending, that this is not political Modbert. I do not usually debate anywhere near you, did not know you could be so nasty


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## Modbert (Mar 6, 2011)

PixieStix said:


> Screw us? Nice...
> I have life experiences that tell me you have no clue what you are talking about Modbert. I am experiencing some of these issues as we speak. Don't sit and pretend you can fathom any part of this issue
> 
> Dr. Gump..a stab in the dark for sure



Yes, I have low tolerance for such a exceedingly high level of ignorance. You know nothing about this man, you know nothing about the context of his post, and you know nothing of his purpose. Yet, you find yourself fit to judge him when in reality you know nothing about him.

I understand you may have life experiences and going through some issues yourself. However, that gives you no justification or no excuse to judge another person without having even read one word of which he has said. That is my issue here.


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## Dr Grump (Mar 6, 2011)

PixieStix said:


> Dr. Gump..a stab in the dark for sure



OK. Fine. Just provide a link to those who are 'glamourising' suicide...shouldn't bee too hard. And please, no links to "right to die' sites...none of them "glamourise" this situation.

Definition of glamourise: "to glorify or romanticize". 

Show me any group that does the above...take your time...


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## Dr Grump (Mar 6, 2011)

AllieBaba said:


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As far as I know the definition of murder has been constant in the statutes for eons.

Just because you don't like a definition, doesn't mean it is not true.


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## xotoxi (Mar 6, 2011)

Dr Grump said:


> PixieStix said:
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> > There are going to be those who will use him for their agenda for assisted suicide
> ...



Actually "pulling the plug"...i.e. discontinuing life support...and assisted suicide are two different things.  In assisted suicide or suicide, the death process is initiated by the individual.  In pulling the plug, the death process has already started and has only been temporarily paused by the presence of machinery.


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## Modbert (Mar 6, 2011)

PixieStix said:


> Stop pretending, that this is not political Modbert. I do not usually debate anywhere near you, did not know you could be so nasty



Nasty? You're the one judging a human being without having read anything he said just because someone else *might * use what happened to him as justification for something else. You're the one trying to say this man is contributing to the glamorization of suicide when that is a complete falsehood.


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## Dr Grump (Mar 6, 2011)

PixieStix said:


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And so what if it is political? If that's what it takes to make euthenasia legal, then so be it ....


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## PixieStix (Mar 6, 2011)

Modbert said:


> PixieStix said:
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I am an admin, I must make judgments. In my life I must make judgments, in every turn. If you don't like my ideals that is fine, it gives you no right to judge me..at least according to you 

Dude I read what he said.


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## xotoxi (Mar 6, 2011)

AllieBaba said:


> I don't like it when they change the definition of marriage, and I don't like it when they change the definition of murder. And their changes mean exactly jack shit to me and to anybody else who thinks life is precious (and incidentally, who think marriage is worthy of protection).



Yet you don't mind when they change the definition of when life starts.


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## PixieStix (Mar 6, 2011)

Dr Grump said:


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Gotcha. Stay away from my family


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## xotoxi (Mar 6, 2011)

PixieStix said:


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Because you are an admin, you have the right to make judgement about this man.  Yet Modbert has no rights to make judgements about you?  Because he is only a mod?

WTF?


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## Modbert (Mar 6, 2011)

PixieStix said:


> I am an admin, I must make judgments. In my life I must make judgments, in every turn. If you don't like my ideals that is fine, it gives you no right to judge me..at least according to you
> 
> Dude I read what he said.



So as an Admin you judge situations without even knowing what's going on or having read what's going on? Because that's exactly what you're doing here because you clearly hadn't read a word this man said before you start saying he's making it political.

I'm getting the feeling you're strongly missing my point.


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## AllieBaba (Mar 6, 2011)

PixieStix said:


> Modbert said:
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*Yes I have low tolerance for such a exceedingly high level of ignorance* is actually a perfect example of ignorance. As well as shitty grammar.


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## PixieStix (Mar 6, 2011)

Modbert said:


> PixieStix said:
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> > I am an admin, I must make judgments. In my life I must make judgments, in every turn. If you don't like my ideals that is fine, it gives you no right to judge me..at least according to you
> ...




I read it..how many times do I have to type that to you? Shall I type it real slow?

Dr. Gump proved MY point, that is all I need


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## xsited1 (Mar 6, 2011)

Here's how I see it:

Regulating physician-assisted suicide within individual states is beyond the scope of the federal government's powers.  It's legal in Oregon.  Since this guy has a short time left and has gotten the 'okay' from several doctors, let him go.


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## Modbert (Mar 6, 2011)

PixieStix said:


> I read it..how many times do I have to type that to you? Shall I type it real slow?
> 
> Dr. Gump proved MY point, that is all I need



Except you didn't. I highly doubt you did. I'm pretty sure you're just basing your opinions here about this man off your own beliefs.


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## Dr Grump (Mar 6, 2011)

PixieStix said:


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But of course. You stay away from those who want assisted suicide. Deal?


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## PixieStix (Mar 6, 2011)

Modbert said:


> PixieStix said:
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> > I read it..how many times do I have to type that to you? Shall I type it real slow?
> ...



You are judging me based on what you are "highly doubting"  I do not care what his beliefs are. That is irrelevant


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## Greenbeard (Mar 6, 2011)

AllieBaba said:


> ASSISTED suicide isn't suicide at all. It's murder.



Is consensual sex rape? Is accepting a gift theft? Context matters.


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## Modbert (Mar 6, 2011)

PixieStix said:


> You are judging me based on what you are "highly doubting"  I do not care what his beliefs are. That is irrelevant



No, I'm basing my conclusion that you didn't read what he said on your posts thus far in this thread. I never made any mention of his beliefs, so I'm not sure where you're getting at there. I'm referring to your clear opposition to this issue making you biased about what this person is doing by making this thread on reddit.

You still haven't shown how you think he is glamorizing suicide either.


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## Dr Grump (Mar 6, 2011)

PixieStix said:


> I am an admin, I must make judgments. In my life I must make judgments, in every turn. If you don't like my ideals that is fine, it gives you no right to judge me..at least according to you
> 
> Dude I read what he said.



Pixie, Pixie, Pixie...Good grief, you are comparing making decisions on a messageboard with making decisions about life and death?

What do you do for an encore, compare that fact you have to choose between chocolate or peppermint icing for the cake you just baked, with the head of UNICEF who has to decide whether that tonne of aid goes to the Sudan or Burkina Faso?


----------



## xotoxi (Mar 6, 2011)

Dr Grump said:


> PixieStix said:
> 
> 
> > I am an admin, I must make judgments. In my life I must make judgments, in every turn. If you don't like my ideals that is fine, it gives you no right to judge me..at least according to you
> ...



She must consider banning to be a form of death.


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## PixieStix (Mar 6, 2011)

If people want to take themselves out because they are suffering then so be it. I just do not happen to think that the state or federal government should be part of that in any way shape or form

Anything the government intercedes in, usually ends up all screwed up and ends up taking tax dollars to do studies on what is the best way to off yourself? And the beat would go on and on

And eventually assisted suicide advocates would be telling us *who* should be offing themselves. I am not ok with that


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## Dr Grump (Mar 6, 2011)

xotoxi said:


> Dr Grump said:
> 
> 
> > PixieStix said:
> ...



And quite a serious decision to make.....


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## Modbert (Mar 6, 2011)

PixieStix said:


> If people want to take themselves out because they are suffering then so be it. I just do not happen to think that the state or federal government should be part of that in any way shape or form
> 
> Anything the government intercedes in, usually ends up all screwed up and ends up taking tax dollars to do studies on what is the best way to off yourself? And the beat would go on and on
> 
> And eventually assisted suicide advocates would be telling us *who* should be offing themselves. I am not ok with that



Fears that have no basis in reality.


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## Modbert (Mar 6, 2011)

By the way, for those who do not know the law in Oregon:

Assisted suicide in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



> The Oregon Death with Dignity Act, and the Washington statute modeled after it, set certain requirements and safeguards before a person may commit suicide with a doctor's assistance. The patient must be of sound mind when they request a prescription for a lethal dose of medication. Two doctors must confirm a diagnosis of terminal illness with no more than six months to live. Two witnesses, one non-doctor unrelated to the patient, must confirm the patient's request, and the patient must make a second request after 15 days.


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## PixieStix (Mar 6, 2011)

xotoxi said:


> Dr Grump said:
> 
> 
> > PixieStix said:
> ...



Xotoxi you can't resist an opportunity to attack my position huh? sad

Dr, Gump...I was talking to modbert about him telling me I was making a judgment. Don't take it out of context


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## Greenbeard (Mar 6, 2011)

PixieStix said:


> If people want to take themselves out because they are suffering then so be it. I just do not happen to think that the state or federal government should be part of that in any way shape or form
> 
> Anything the government intercedes in, usually ends up all screwed up and ends up taking tax dollars to do studies on what is the best way to off yourself? And the beat would go on and on
> 
> And eventually assisted suicide advocates would be telling us *who* should be offing themselves. I am not ok with that



Eventually? Oregon's been allowing this for nearly 17 years now. Can you expand upon how your predictions have come or are currently coming to pass there?


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## PixieStix (Mar 6, 2011)

Funny stuff, Dr Gump and even xotoxi don't have nothing more than attacking me as a mod/admin 

Gotta love it


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## Dr Grump (Mar 6, 2011)

PixieStix said:


> If people want to take themselves out because they are suffering then so be it. I just do not happen to think that the state or federal government should be part of that in any way shape or form
> 
> Anything the government intercedes in, usually ends up all screwed up and ends up taking tax dollars to do studies on what is the best way to off yourself? And the beat would go on and on
> 
> And eventually assisted suicide advocates would be telling us *who* should be offing themselves. I am not ok with that



1) But they are not allowed to - well, not in a legal, pain-free, "there-will-be-no-repercussions-to-those-who-helped-you" kind of way.
2)I concur that the govt does fuck things up. However, if assisted suicide is to be allowed, then there has to be a law.
3) I have not yet come across advocates for assisted suicide wanting to decide who does what to whom. Any advocate I have read about wants people to make their own decision. I wouldn't support a panel deciding who decides who dies and who doesn't, only for an individual to make that decision for themselves.


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## Dr Grump (Mar 6, 2011)

PixieStix said:


> Funny stuff, Dr Gump and even xotoxi don't have nothing more than attacking me as a mod/admin
> 
> Gotta love it



If you think that is all I have you haven't been reading my posts...

...and if you think it's cool to compare being a mod on a messageboard with somebody making life or death situations, then that's on you. You made the comparison, be prepared to be made accountable for doing so...


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## Mini 14 (Mar 6, 2011)

Modbert said:


> PixieStix said:
> 
> 
> > I read it..how many times do I have to type that to you? Shall I type it real slow?
> ...



What the fuck else is she supposed to base her opinion on?


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## PixieStix (Mar 6, 2011)

Dr Grump said:


> PixieStix said:
> 
> 
> > If people want to take themselves out because they are suffering then so be it. I just do not happen to think that the state or federal government should be part of that in any way shape or form
> ...





Government would have a vested interest in making those decisions for others. We cannot allow government that door into our lives or deaths


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## Mini 14 (Mar 6, 2011)

PixieStix said:


> Funny stuff, Dr Gump and even xotoxi don't have nothing more than attacking me as a mod/admin
> 
> Gotta love it



I just love mod on mod action.

Its like footage of Bruce Lee v Chuck Norris


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## PixieStix (Mar 6, 2011)

Dr Grump said:


> PixieStix said:
> 
> 
> > Funny stuff, Dr Gump and even xotoxi don't have nothing more than attacking me as a mod/admin
> ...



I have been reading them. Thanks


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## AllieBaba (Mar 6, 2011)

Modbert said:


> PixieStix said:
> 
> 
> > I read it..how many times do I have to type that to you? Shall I type it real slow?
> ...


 
Anything's possible, and we certainly know that's the way YOU function. Though Pixie is infinitely more insightful and better rounded than you could ever hope to be...


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## Modbert (Mar 6, 2011)

PixieStix said:


> Xotoxi you can't resist an opportunity to attack my position huh? sad
> 
> Dr, Gump...I was talking to modbert about him telling me I was making a judgment. Don't take it out of context



And don't take my words out of context.



Modbert said:


> I understand you may have life experiences and going through some issues yourself. However, that gives you no justification or no excuse to judge another person without having even read one word of which he has said. That is my issue here.



To use your own example as an Administrator, it would be you banning someone when they are reported without even reading what was reported.

It's understandable if people are opposed to assisted suicide, suicide in general, or whatever. However, it's not understandable for people to judge the intent of others without even hearing them out first. Especially when those same people say they have no intent themselves of changing their mind no matter what.

In response to me when I told you it's not political:



PixieStix said:


> * I still  stand by my statement,* *because regardless of what his intent is.* There are going to be those who will use him for their agenda for assisted suicide
> 
> I am pretty sure suicide will be glamorized before all is said and done. I am not alright with that



You say it's political on his part simply because of the potential actions of others. You had already prejudged his intent because of your own personal beliefs. That's the point I'm getting at.

As a moderator, you would not want me making judgement calls about reported posts on my own personal beliefs.


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## Modbert (Mar 6, 2011)

Mini 14 said:


> What the fuck else is she supposed to base her opinion on?



The facts would be a nice start.


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## PixieStix (Mar 6, 2011)

Modbert, I did not take your words out of context, Dr Gump took mine out of context


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## AllieBaba (Mar 6, 2011)

Mini 14 said:


> PixieStix said:
> 
> 
> > Funny stuff, Dr Gump and even xotoxi don't have nothing more than attacking me as a mod/admin
> ...


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## PixieStix (Mar 6, 2011)

AllieBaba said:


> Modbert said:
> 
> 
> > PixieStix said:
> ...



Thanks Allie

It is called life and death experiences. It is called soul searching. It is not about politics.


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## Dr Grump (Mar 6, 2011)

PixieStix said:


> Dr Grump said:
> 
> 
> > PixieStix said:
> ...



I would agree if I thought that was the case.I don't.


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## xotoxi (Mar 6, 2011)

Dr Grump said:


> xotoxi said:
> 
> 
> > Dr Grump said:
> ...


Our life is in her hands.

And worse...it is in Gunny's hands as well.


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## AllieBaba (Mar 6, 2011)

Modbert said:


> PixieStix said:
> 
> 
> > Xotoxi you can't resist an opportunity to attack my position huh? sad
> ...


 

Now I feel like you're just throwing me bones, LOLOL!

Thanks, Slobbert! My siggy was just getting stale for me, but you have breathed new life in it. Somehow I think Luser will not be far behind.


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## California Girl (Mar 6, 2011)

AllieBaba said:


> Luissa said:
> 
> 
> > PixieStix said:
> ...



The death penalty is state sanctioned murder. I support that. Assisted suicide, as long as we ensure that the patient is of sound mind and knows exactly what they want, then it is non of our business. 

As a Catholic, I couldn't choose that option because I believe that it's God's decision but I have not right to force my belief on others.


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## PixieStix (Mar 6, 2011)

Dr Grump said:


> PixieStix said:
> 
> 
> > Dr Grump said:
> ...



My point is that I do not ever want that to be the case. They would have to kill me to "assist" my family member


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## AllieBaba (Mar 6, 2011)

You will notice that I went ahead and put the red ink on that for ya, saved you the trouble of going back later and taking care of it....


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## Mini 14 (Mar 6, 2011)

Modbert said:


> Mini 14 said:
> 
> 
> > What the fuck else is she supposed to base her opinion on?
> ...



You're an idiot.

There are no facts.

This is a position of opinion, not fact. Perhaps you can give me the facts on abortion, religion, or art?

I understand now why she is an Admin and you are not.

You seem defensive, angry, and jealous.


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## Modbert (Mar 6, 2011)

PixieStix said:


> Modbert, I did not take your words out of context, Dr Gump took mine out of context



Except you act like I'm saying don't judge in general, I'm not. I'm asking you to put aside your beliefs and look at the facts.

You're judging his intent based off the potential intent of others. Do you see the logic in that? I certainly don't.

How would you like it if someone judged the intent of your actions, whether it be on USMB or in life based off the intent of others who are reacting to your actions?

For example, you point out that smoking is bad but it should be someone's choice whether or not they should smoke and not the government's. In response, someone uses your post as an example of allowing 10 year old children to smoke. Even though you may not support such a thing, someone is your post as a basis to make that example.

That's what I'm trying to get across here.


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## xsited1 (Mar 6, 2011)

Modbert said:


> PixieStix said:
> 
> 
> > Stop pretending, that this is not political Modbert. I do not usually debate anywhere near you, did not know you could be so nasty
> ...



You're a dick, Modbert.  You know it, I know it, everybody knows it.  I guess the question I have for you is what are you going to do about?  You can change it you want or you can continue being a dick.  Your choice.


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## PixieStix (Mar 6, 2011)

xotoxi said:


> Dr Grump said:
> 
> 
> > xotoxi said:
> ...



And you couldn't debate your way out of a paper bag


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## xotoxi (Mar 6, 2011)

PixieStix said:


> xotoxi said:
> 
> 
> > Dr Grump said:
> ...



Only because you brought it into the conversation and built it up to be all that and more.

I'm sure being an administrator at USMB has made you into a stronger, more well rounded person.  Is it on your resume?


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## AllieBaba (Mar 6, 2011)

California Girl said:


> AllieBaba said:
> 
> 
> > Luissa said:
> ...


 

I used to support the death penalty, but don't anymore. 

Because I cannot make it fit into my own Christianity. And yet I can support shows of force and war. It's a conundrum. But I know this to be true...depravity always follows decisions that reflect the concept that humans are expendible, and murder is okay if it's called something else.


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## Mini 14 (Mar 6, 2011)

Modbert said:


> PixieStix said:
> 
> 
> > Modbert, I did not take your words out of context, Dr Gump took mine out of context
> ...



Either you're smoking too much.....

or not enough.

Incoherence is amusing sometimes, but persistent babbling is just annoying.

Log back in as Terral and see if any of it makes more sense.


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## PixieStix (Mar 6, 2011)

xotoxi said:


> PixieStix said:
> 
> 
> > xotoxi said:
> ...



It was an example of the decision making process dude, I used others. Stop and stay on topic, if you dare


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## Modbert (Mar 6, 2011)

Mini 14 said:


> You're an idiot.
> 
> There are no facts.
> 
> ...



Jealous and defensive over what? There are facts here and facts in general. Some people are just choosing to ignore them because of their own beliefs.

If a painting is blue, there is no debate about whether it is or red or blue. If a religion believes in one God, there is no debate about whether there is a belief in multiple Gods.


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## PixieStix (Mar 6, 2011)

xotoxi said:


> PixieStix said:
> 
> 
> > xotoxi said:
> ...



Xotoxi, are you trying me? You want to edit that? You are off topic and this is NOT the flame zone.


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## xotoxi (Mar 6, 2011)

PixieStix said:


> Dr Grump said:
> 
> 
> > PixieStix said:
> ...



If you had a family member that wanted assisted suicide, you would forbid them from doing it?  And how would you do that?

(And please don't dismiss my question by saying "No one in my family would consider assisted suicide.")


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## Momanohedhunter (Mar 6, 2011)

Cmdr Sheppard said:


> I saw this thread on Facepunch and found it interesting, so now I'm sharing it. A man is going to commit suicide in 51 hours, well actually about 34 hours now, and he's online answering questions about his life, his disease, assisted suicide, and various other things, before he pulls the plug on himself.
> 
> The man, known as 'Lucidending' on Reddit is suffering from an incurable form of cancer and is in a lot of pain, and so he wants to just end his suffering now with dignity. He lives in Oregon, where it is legal to kill yourself under certain circumstances, and his doctor is setting things up so all he has to do is push a button and he'll be injected with drugs that will kill him.
> 
> reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/fy6yz/51_hours_left_to_live/



It is no one else's business. If this Man wants to end his life it is between him and his family. If it were me and I couldn't get a Dr. to help me I would paint the ceiling with my brains. No one would stop me from getting it done.


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## Mini 14 (Mar 6, 2011)

Modbert said:


> Mini 14 said:
> 
> 
> > You're an idiot.
> ...



What are you, 17?

How is a person's position on suicide based on "fact?"

Its an opinion.

And you seem to have a real problem if someone's opinion differs from yours.

He says he has no religious beliefs.

Bet that changes when he pushes that little button.

But I honestly don't care one way or the other. A lot of people I don't know die every day, the just don't all draw attention to themselves in the process.

He isn't special.


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## xotoxi (Mar 6, 2011)

PixieStix said:


> xotoxi said:
> 
> 
> > PixieStix said:
> ...



But how has your decision making process as an administrator at USMB...or for anything else in your life, helped you to come up with your judgement of this man's choice.

Your judgement is based SOLELY on your feelings of the issue...not based on any facts whatsoever.  I have no problem with you (or anyone else) saying "I feel that it is wrong"...I have a problem with people stating "It IS wrong" as if it is a proven fact.


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## PixieStix (Mar 6, 2011)

xotoxi said:


> PixieStix said:
> 
> 
> > Dr Grump said:
> ...



Someone in my family has and is considering the end of life issue. No I do not like it, but I can understand it, since I watch him suffer.


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## PixieStix (Mar 6, 2011)

Mini 14 said:


> Modbert said:
> 
> 
> > Mini 14 said:
> ...



Exactly


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## xotoxi (Mar 6, 2011)

PixieStix said:


> xotoxi said:
> 
> 
> > PixieStix said:
> ...



Sorry to hear about that.

By end of life issue, are you referring to deciding on stopping treatment and enrolling in hospice or palliative care, or are you talking about considering assisted suicide?


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## Modbert (Mar 6, 2011)

Mini 14 said:


> What are you, 17?
> 
> How is a person's position on suicide based on "fact?"
> 
> ...



This person has had multiple surgeries, has cancer, and it has spread to his brain. These are all facts. He has to have met certain qualifications to be allowed to kill himself under Oregon law. He has met those qualifications. These things are not up for debate. The ultimate question of whether one should commit suicide or not is certainly up to debate. However, the facts surrounding this man's case is not up to debate.

I have no problem if someone's opinion is different from me, especially if it's on an internet forum. If you didn't honestly care one way or another, you wouldn't of clicked on this thread in the first place, never mind replied to me. Nobody forced you to read this guy's story, if you don't like him posting about it, don't click on it. Really simple.


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## PixieStix (Mar 6, 2011)

xotoxi said:


> PixieStix said:
> 
> 
> > xotoxi said:
> ...



Not assisted, he would not allow someone to carry that burden. You see he is thoughtful


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## Modbert (Mar 6, 2011)

PixieStix said:


> Not assisted, he would not allow someone to carry that burden. You see he is thoughtful



So those who commit assisted suicide are not thoughtful?


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## Greenbeard (Mar 6, 2011)

Mini 14 said:


> How is a person's position on suicide based on "fact?"
> 
> Its an opinion.



It was made clear in an earlier post that a slippery slope argument lies at the heart of that particular opinion. Since the law in question isn't far from entering its third decade of being in effect, it doesn't seem too unreasonable to ask for some evidence that policy in Oregon has slipped down the slope since its initial enactment.


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## Mini 14 (Mar 6, 2011)

Modbert said:


> This person has had multiple surgeries, has cancer, and it has spread to his brain. These are all facts. He has to have met certain qualifications to be allowed to kill himself under Oregon law. He has met those qualifications. These things are not up for debate. The ultimate question of whether one should commit suicide or not is certainly up to debate. However, the facts surrounding this man's case is not up to debate.
> 
> I have no problem if someone's opinion is different from me, especially if it's on an internet forum. If you didn't honestly care one way or another, you wouldn't of clicked on this thread in the first place, never mind replied to me. Nobody forced you to read this guy's story, if you don't like him posting about it, don't click on it. Really simple.



Wow.

He's really unique, huh?

I'm a Christian.

Suicide is a sin.

This is not up for debate either.

When he pushes that button, his options are reduced to one, and though he isn't completely damned at that point, he'd better act fast.


Now.....

Tell me again how it isn't an opinion?


----------



## xotoxi (Mar 6, 2011)

PixieStix said:


> xotoxi said:
> 
> 
> > PixieStix said:
> ...



Either that, or he doesn't live in Oregon.

If he joins hospice, he will have lots of meds to keep him comfortable (depending on his issue).  I would hope that you would support this decision.


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## Momanohedhunter (Mar 6, 2011)

What facts support suicide being wrong. Especially in this mans case ?


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## PixieStix (Mar 6, 2011)

xotoxi said:


> PixieStix said:
> 
> 
> > xotoxi said:
> ...



I do not make decisions based solely on feelings. But to dismiss feelings that feed the thought process would be a disservice to my conscience


----------



## AllieBaba (Mar 6, 2011)

xotoxi said:


> PixieStix said:
> 
> 
> > xotoxi said:
> ...


 
I didn't notice any judgement of his choice.

Some idiot, I don't remember who, there is more than one choice..oh wait, Paulie..anyway, he said in essence it's not political, or we shouldn't politicize it. 

Then it was assertained that this person has made it political himself.

I'm not sure that constitutes a judgement of any choice, it's just an observation that he did make one. And his choice was to be political in his death.


----------



## Modbert (Mar 6, 2011)

Mini 14 said:


> Wow.
> 
> He's really unique, huh?
> 
> ...



Whether suicide is a sin or not is up to debate. Whether or not Suicide being a sin in Christianity however is not up to debate. For example, Jainism is one of the religions that permits suicide.


----------



## Wry Catcher (Mar 6, 2011)

AllieBaba said:


> Fucking Oregon.
> 
> Try to talk him out of it. *Legal* suicides are still just suicides, and *assisted* suicide is just legalized murder.



Not allowing someone to die with dignity at the time of their own choosing is to deny them freedom.  It sounds as if a rational decision has been made; AllieBaba foresakes reason for emotion.


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## PixieStix (Mar 6, 2011)

Modbert said:


> PixieStix said:
> 
> 
> > Not assisted, he would not allow someone to carry that burden. You see he is thoughtful
> ...




Please stop with the juvenile word game Dear


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## Modbert (Mar 6, 2011)

PixieStix said:


> Please stop with the juvenile word game Dear



I'm being serious. You're the one who connected the two independent thoughts that he is not committing assisted suicide to being thoughtful. Rephrase it better instead of trying to accuse others of playing word games.


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## Mini 14 (Mar 6, 2011)

Modbert said:


> Mini 14 said:
> 
> 
> > Wow.
> ...




I really should have quit at 



> You're an idiot.


----------



## AllieBaba (Mar 6, 2011)

Wry Catcher said:


> AllieBaba said:
> 
> 
> > Fucking Oregon.
> ...


 
There is no dignity in death. And I have no problem with people dying their own way on their own terms. It's not my decision to make.

It's also the ultimate in personal decisions. If that's what person wants, the state has no place there. Particularly not there administering the drugs and holding the hands of people who are administering death.


----------



## Momanohedhunter (Mar 6, 2011)

Mini 14 said:


> Modbert said:
> 
> 
> > This person has had multiple surgeries, has cancer, and it has spread to his brain. These are all facts. He has to have met certain qualifications to be allowed to kill himself under Oregon law. He has met those qualifications. These things are not up for debate. The ultimate question of whether one should commit suicide or not is certainly up to debate. However, the facts surrounding this man's case is not up to debate.
> ...



That suicide is a sin is a lie pushed by the Catholic Church. There is no scripture to support that statement. Saved or not God knows when you will take your first breath and when (and how) you will take your last. So then What makes suicide in this mans case bad ?


----------



## Modbert (Mar 6, 2011)

Mini 14 said:


> I really should have quit at
> 
> 
> 
> > You're an idiot.



You're the one who said Suicide is a Sin and that you're a Christian. In Christianity, suicide is considered a sin, yes. However, in other religions and to those who believe in a God but not an organized religion, that may not be the case. I was just merely pointing that out.


----------



## Mini 14 (Mar 6, 2011)

Momanohedhunter said:


> \
> That suicide is a sin is a lie pushed by the Catholic Church. There is no scripture to support that statement. Saved or not God knows when you will take your first breath and when (and how) you will take your last. So then What makes suicide in this mans case bad ?



I am happy that that works for you.

Peace be with you.


----------



## AllieBaba (Mar 6, 2011)

Modbert said:


> PixieStix said:
> 
> 
> > Please stop with the juvenile word game Dear
> ...


 
It's not a word game, PS...it's his way of pretending to be smart. It's his method of using logical fallacy as if it's some sort of evidence, and indicative of his own dishonesty. Bait and switch, victory declared.


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## Wry Catcher (Mar 6, 2011)

AllieBaba said:


> Wry Catcher said:
> 
> 
> > AllieBaba said:
> ...



I agree.  Yet, most states deny people that right and you condemn a state which allows that right ("Fucking Oregon").


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## Mini 14 (Mar 6, 2011)

Modbert said:


> Mini 14 said:
> 
> 
> > I really should have quit at
> ...



I don't give a shit about anyone else's opinion, dumbass.

That is YOUR problem, not mine.


----------



## AllieBaba (Mar 6, 2011)

Wry Catcher said:


> AllieBaba said:
> 
> 
> > Wry Catcher said:
> ...


 
Death is NOT a right. It's inevitable, but not a right.

And please give me an example of all these people being denied the right to die quietly at home, or under a tree. 

Show me the numbers of people who have been *prevented* from dying the way they want, and explain why they must have a particular permission to commit suicide. And show me how without that permission, they can't kill themselves anyway.


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## AllieBaba (Mar 6, 2011)

Then I'll show you example after example of what happens when death is legalized, for whatever reason.


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## Dr Grump (Mar 6, 2011)

xotoxi said:


> Dr Grump said:
> 
> 
> > xotoxi said:
> ...



Gunny's Ok in my book....


----------



## Momanohedhunter (Mar 6, 2011)

Mini 14 said:


> Momanohedhunter said:
> 
> 
> > \
> ...



Thanks, and you as well. But there is still no scripture to back up suicide being a sin. That aside, What makes it such a big deal ?


----------



## Dr Grump (Mar 6, 2011)

AllieBaba said:


> If that's what person wants, the state has no place there. Particularly not there administering the drugs and holding the hands of people who are administering death.



Surely you want professionals administering the drugs though? You mean a hack should do it?


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## Mini 14 (Mar 6, 2011)

Momanohedhunter said:


> Mini 14 said:
> 
> 
> > Momanohedhunter said:
> ...



I do not argue religion. I am comfortable with my faith.

I am also comfortable with yours


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## Momanohedhunter (Mar 6, 2011)

Mini 14 said:


> Momanohedhunter said:
> 
> 
> > Mini 14 said:
> ...



Yep, you cant argue with the word of God. And it gets old how pro or anti use religion (mostly Christianity) in there arguments. Christians should no better. So the issue can not be argued from a religious stand point. So why such a stigma with suicide in this mans case ?


----------



## AllieBaba (Mar 6, 2011)

Dr Grump said:


> AllieBaba said:
> 
> 
> > If that's what person wants, the state has no place there. Particularly not there administering the drugs and holding the hands of people who are administering death.
> ...


 
Er..no. I think if someone is going to kill himself, he needs to actually kill..himself. Because after all, killing someone else is murder.
And it doesn't take a highly skilled professional to kill a person, btw. People who aren't trained professionals kill themselves and each other every single day.


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## AllieBaba (Mar 6, 2011)

Momanohedhunter said:


> Mini 14 said:
> 
> 
> > Momanohedhunter said:
> ...


 
there's always stigma associated with suicide. If there wasn't, no kid would reach adulthood. And nobody is quibbling about his choice to die. They're quibbling over whether or not somebody else needs to be authorized to administer his death and condone it.

One side says it's suicide to kill yourself; it's murder if somebody else does it.

The other side says people who are sick and in pain don't need to live anyway, so the state should encourage and assist them towards their final solution.

That's the argument. Not whether this particular joe should or should not commit suicide. That's not the discussion.


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## Mini 14 (Mar 6, 2011)

Momanohedhunter said:


> Mini 14 said:
> 
> 
> > Momanohedhunter said:
> ...



Religion.


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## AllieBaba (Mar 6, 2011)

yeah, let's make suicide *cool*. That's a great idea.


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## Momanohedhunter (Mar 6, 2011)

AllieBaba said:


> yeah, let's make suicide *cool*. That's a great idea.



In his case cool is not an issue. He is suffering, and day after day waiting to die. His life, His choice. It cant be made wrong from a Christian stand point, and no one can offer any reason why a person of sane mind can not end there own life. Whats there for him to live for ? We are not talking about a befuddled teenager, but a terminal ill adult. Suicide for him, and others like him is a valid option.


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## whitehall (Mar 6, 2011)

Suicide isn't illegal. At least it's safe to say that nobody has ever been prosecuted for the alleged crime. The libs can't seem to leave the concept alone though. The dirty little secret is that libs want the government to promote and sanction murder.


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## Momanohedhunter (Mar 6, 2011)

It should be left to the individual, there family, and Doctor.


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## PixieStix (Mar 6, 2011)

Who the guy was in the OP, does matter. Unfortunately he thinks who he was, does not. How sad. Leaving a legacy matters


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## AllieBaba (Mar 6, 2011)

Momanohedhunter said:


> It should be left to the individual, there family, and Doctor.


 
So why is the state authorizing and condoning it?


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## AllieBaba (Mar 6, 2011)

Still waiting for the evidence that people who want to kill themselves are prevented from doing so if we don't make a law saying it's ok.


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## Momanohedhunter (Mar 6, 2011)

AllieBaba said:


> Momanohedhunter said:
> 
> 
> > It should be left to the individual, there family, and Doctor.
> ...



Ask Jack kevorkian, A state needs to authorize it so that the Doctor does not get sent up for murder.


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## Momanohedhunter (Mar 6, 2011)

AllieBaba said:


> Still waiting for the evidence that people who want to kill themselves are prevented from doing so if we don't make a law saying it's ok.



There is none. It says that no one can help them.


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## AllieBaba (Mar 6, 2011)

Fiddlesticks. Kevorkian was a serial killer and he did time because of it.

Again. Please provide the stats that back up the claim that without the state assisting and condoning murder, people cannot die if they want to.


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## AllieBaba (Mar 6, 2011)

Momanohedhunter said:


> AllieBaba said:
> 
> 
> > Still waiting for the evidence that people who want to kill themselves are prevented from doing so if we don't make a law saying it's ok.
> ...


 
If they're doing it themselves, why do they need help? Isn't doing it yourself pretty much what distinguishes suicide from, say, murder, or accidental death, or natural death?


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## PixieStix (Mar 6, 2011)

AllieBaba said:


> Momanohedhunter said:
> 
> 
> > AllieBaba said:
> ...



Well we know that many like to re invent the meanings of words, when it comes to pushing an agenda


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## AllieBaba (Mar 6, 2011)

PixieStix said:


> AllieBaba said:
> 
> 
> > Momanohedhunter said:
> ...


 
With slaves and Jews, the excuse for killing them was "It doesn't matter, they're not HUMAN". Now it's "It doesn't matter, they're diseased! We're doing them a FAVOR!"

Though with abortion it's still, "It doesn't matter, they're not human".


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## Momanohedhunter (Mar 6, 2011)

AllieBaba said:


> Momanohedhunter said:
> 
> 
> > AllieBaba said:
> ...



They are prevented from getting help. There doctors are prevented from getting the patent set up to do the job them selves. When a patent is not conscious and not expected to live the Dr.'s will "make them comfortable" with massive doses of morphine, and cut off there hydration until they die. The Dr.'s finish off there patents like this all the time. So why is it bad for a terminally ill individual who is lucid to receive the same consideration ?


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## Momanohedhunter (Mar 6, 2011)

AllieBaba said:


> Fiddlesticks. Kevorkian was a serial killer and he did time because of it.
> 
> Again. Please provide the stats that back up the claim that without the state assisting and condoning murder, people cannot die if they want to.



A serial killer is typically defined as an individual who has murdered three or more people[1][2] over a period of more than a month, with down time (a "cooling off period") between the murders, and whose motivation for killing is largely based on psychological gratification.[3][4] Other sources define the term as "a series of two or more murders, committed as separate events, usually, but not always, by one offender acting alone" or, including the vital characteristics, a minimum of at least two murders.[4][5] Often, a sexual element is involved with the killings, but the FBI states that motives for serial murder include "anger, thrill, financial gain, and attention seeking."[5] The murders may have been attempted or completed in a similar fashion and the victims may have had something in common; for example, occupation, race, appearance, sex, or age group.

Serial killers are not the same as mass murderers, who commit multiple murders at one time; nor are they spree killers, who commit murders in two or more locations with virtually no break in between. Coinage of the English term serial killer is commonly attributed to former FBI Special Agent Robert Ressler in the 1970s.[6][7] The concept had been described earlier, e.g. by German police inspector Ernst Gennat coining the same term in 1930.[8] Author Ann Rule postulates in her 2004 book Kiss Me, Kill Me that the English-language credit for coining the term "serial killer" goes to LAPD detective Pierce Brooks, mastermind of the ViCAP system.[9]

Kevorkian does not fit the profile. All of his patents were video taped asking him for help.


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## Dr Grump (Mar 6, 2011)

AllieBaba said:


> Momanohedhunter said:
> 
> 
> > It should be left to the individual, there family, and Doctor.
> ...



Because countries are made up of laws, mores and morals. The govt makes the laws of the land...

Don't like a country without laws? Go live in Somalia or Afghanistan...


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## Momanohedhunter (Mar 6, 2011)

AllieBaba said:


> PixieStix said:
> 
> 
> > AllieBaba said:
> ...



The Jews did not ask to be killed, and a slave wouldn't have a choice one way or the other. This man does.


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## Momanohedhunter (Mar 6, 2011)

Dr Grump said:


> AllieBaba said:
> 
> 
> > Momanohedhunter said:
> ...



And the Law in Oregon is on this mans side.


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## AllieBaba (Mar 6, 2011)

Momanohedhunter said:


> AllieBaba said:
> 
> 
> > Fiddlesticks. Kevorkian was a serial killer and he did time because of it.
> ...


 
I know what a serial killer is, and Kevorkian is one.

BTW, serial killers have been known to tape their victims doing a variety of different things.  If you're using that to prove he's not a serial killer, it falls flat.


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## AllieBaba (Mar 6, 2011)

Momanohedhunter said:


> AllieBaba said:
> 
> 
> > Momanohedhunter said:
> ...


 
They aren't prevented from killing themselves. People are prevented from KILLING them.

There's a difference.


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## Dr Grump (Mar 6, 2011)

AllieBaba said:


> Momanohedhunter said:
> 
> 
> > AllieBaba said:
> ...



But if the Killer and the Killee are in agreement to help each other out, why do you care?


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## Momanohedhunter (Mar 6, 2011)

AllieBaba said:


> Momanohedhunter said:
> 
> 
> > AllieBaba said:
> ...



You did not read the definition. No serial killer has gotten taped consent to help them end there lives while family was present. And his patents were lucid when taped and I believe they had family present. I am also pretty sure he only set them up to do the deed.


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## AllieBaba (Mar 6, 2011)

Jews walked into the ovens willingly. That's why.


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## AllieBaba (Mar 6, 2011)

Momanohedhunter said:


> AllieBaba said:
> 
> 
> > Momanohedhunter said:
> ...


 
I said I know the definition. And you either didn't read, or don't understand, my response.


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## Dr Grump (Mar 6, 2011)

AllieBaba said:


> Jews walked into the ovens willingly. That's why.



That's a lie...

..God, you say some weird/disgusting/crappy shit....


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## AllieBaba (Mar 6, 2011)

And you have zero knowledge of history.


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## Dr Grump (Mar 6, 2011)

AllieBaba said:


> And you have zero knowledge of history.



The piece of thumb nail I just cut off has more knowledge of history than you ever will...


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## AllieBaba (Mar 6, 2011)

Yeah, right.

Promoting death of a subclass always works out so well.


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## Montrovant (Mar 6, 2011)

If a doctor provides the drugs, but the individual takes them him/her-self, is it murder?
If a doctor simply writes a prescription, is it murder?

There's nothing wrong with being opposed to assisted suicide.  It seems to me there is a difference between providing the means by which a person commits suicide and doing it yourself, however.  It may be a small difference in some cases, but it can still be an important one.


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## Dr Grump (Mar 6, 2011)

AllieBaba said:


> Yeah, right.
> 
> Promoting death of a subclass always works out so well.



Whose death is being promoted and by whom?


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## AllieBaba (Mar 6, 2011)

Why, you're promoting the killing of people who are sick, silly.


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## AllieBaba (Mar 6, 2011)

Montrovant said:


> If a doctor provides the drugs, but the individual takes them him/her-self, is it murder?
> If a doctor simply writes a prescription, is it murder?
> 
> There's nothing wrong with being opposed to assisted suicide. It seems to me there is a difference between providing the means by which a person commits suicide and doing it yourself, however. It may be a small difference in some cases, but it can still be an important one.


 
Nope. It never has been illegal for a dr. to prescribe drugs which can kill if the client takes too many.

It is, however, illegal to prescribe meds for the purpose of death. Not to mention being in direct conflict with the hippocratic oath.


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## AllieBaba (Mar 6, 2011)

Dr Grump said:


> AllieBaba said:
> 
> 
> > Jews walked into the ovens willingly. That's why.
> ...


 
"Jews arriving in trains at Belzec, Sobibor, and Treblinka were falsely informed by the SS that they had come to a transit stop and would be moving on to their true destination after delousing. They were told their clothes were going to be disinfected and that they would all be taken to shower rooms for a good washing. Men were then split up from the women and children. Everyone was taken to undressing barracks and told to remove all of their clothing. Women and girls next had their hair cut off. First the men, and then the women and children, were hustled in the nude along a narrow fenced-in pathway nicknamed by the SS as the Himmelstrasse (road to Heaven). At the end of the path was a bathhouse with tiled shower rooms. As soon as the people were all crammed inside, the main door was slammed shut, creating an air-tight seal. Deadly carbon monoxide fumes were then fed in from a stationary diesel engine located outside the chamber. 
At Auschwitz-Birkenau, new arrivals were told to carefully hang their clothing on numbered hooks in the undressing room and were instructed to remember the numbers for later. They were given a piece of soap and taken into the adjacent gas chamber disguised as a large shower room. In place of carbon monoxide, pellets of the commercial pesticide Zyklon-B (prussic acid) were poured into openings located above the chamber upon the cynical SS command - Na, gib ihnen shon zu fressen (All right, give 'em something to chew on). The gas pellets fell into hollow shafts made of perforated sheet metal and vaporized upon contact with air, giving off lethal cyanide fumes inside the chamber which oozed out at floor level then rose up toward the ceiling. Children died first since they were closer to the floor. Pandemonium usually erupted as the bitter almond-like odor of the gas spread upwards with adults climbing on top of each other forming a tangled heap of dead bodies all the way up to the ceiling. 
At each of the death camps, special squads of Jewish slave laborers called Sonderkommandos were utilized to untangle the victims and remove them from the gas chamber. Next they extracted any gold fillings from teeth and searched body orifices for hidden valuables. The corpses were disposed of by various methods including mass burials, cremation in open fire pits or in specially designed crematory ovens such as those used at Auschwitz. All clothing, money, gold, jewelry, watches, eyeglasses and other valuables were sorted out then shipped back to Germany for re-use. Women's hair was sent to a firm in Bavaria for the manufacture of felt. 
One extraordinary aspect of the journey to the death camps was that the Nazis often charged Jews deported from Western Europe train fare as third class passengers under the guise that they were being "resettled in the East." *The SS also made new arrivals in the death camps sign picture postcards showing the fictional location "Waldsee" which were sent to relatives back home with the printed greeting: "We are doing very well here. We have work and we are well treated. We await your arrival." *
In the ghettos of Poland, Jews were simply told they were being "transferred" to work camps. i*Many went willingly*, hoping to escape the brutal ghetto conditions. "

Look, they wrote letters saying they were great, so that means they weren't being coerced! Isn't that the argument?

The History Place - Genocide in the 20th Century: The Nazi Holocaust 1938-45

If you only knew how stupid you sound when you are wrong about well known historical events.


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## Modbert (Mar 6, 2011)

AllieBaba said:


> [
> In the ghettos of Poland, Jews were simply told they were being "transferred" to work camps. i*Many went willingly*, hoping to escape the brutal ghetto conditions. "



There is a huge difference between many Jews going to what they thought were work camps willingly and walking into the ovens willingly.


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## AllieBaba (Mar 6, 2011)

No, there isn't, you idiot. I didn't say "Jews went willingly into the ovens knowing they  were ovens". I said they went willingly into the ovens.

The fact that they were lied to and coerced is exactly the point I was making. But you are naturally too dim to get it.


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## AllieBaba (Mar 6, 2011)

This is Kevorkian's death van.







And the prototype.


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## Mini 14 (Mar 6, 2011)

AllieBaba said:


> Dr Grump said:
> 
> 
> > AllieBaba said:
> ...



I once had a customer walk in my store wanting to sell me "some platinum." He said it was "quite a lot" and "did I pay cash?" I told him yes. 

He reached into his pocket, and pulled out a rag wrapped around what appeared to be 4 - 10oz bars of platinum. As I looked closer, I saw swastikas stamped into the bars, along with catalog numbers and German assayer's stamps. Being a collector, I immediately knew what they were. I wrapped them back up, handed them back to him, and told him that if he ever set foot in my store again I would put a bullet through his head, a pistol in his hand, and tell the Sheriff he threatened to shoot my employee.

As soon as he left, I called the FBI and passed along what we knew of the guy. Shortly thereafter, he disappeared. I am told by my agents that he is bored, but doing fine


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## AquaAthena (Mar 6, 2011)

Cmdr Sheppard said:


> I saw this thread on Facepunch and found it interesting, so now I'm sharing it. A man is going to commit suicide in 51 hours, well actually about 34 hours now, and he's online answering questions about his life, his disease, assisted suicide, and various other things, before he pulls the plug on himself.
> 
> The man, known as 'Lucidending' on Reddit is suffering from an incurable form of cancer and is in a lot of pain, and so he wants to just end his suffering now with dignity. He lives in Oregon, where it is legal to kill yourself under certain circumstances, and his doctor is setting things up so all he has to do is push a button and he'll be injected with drugs that will kill him.
> 
> reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/fy6yz/51_hours_left_to_live/



I do live in Oregon and love the "Death with Dignity" law. It has been my understanding though, that two physicians have to agree that you have a terminal illness and will pass within six months ( in all probability ) and then the physician will write you a prescription for meds that will put you away without pain or discomfort. The physician cannot assist with the end of your life. The patient has to be able to take the pills and swallow them on their own and without assistance. That is what my physician told me 7 years ago...things may have changed.


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## AllieBaba (Mar 6, 2011)

"
Guidelines themselves, as the experience of the Netherlands demonstrates, create a sanction that encourages abuse.
*Official Dutch studies reveal that about a quarter of doctors in the country admit to having ended the lives of patients without their consent -- despite guidelines insisting that such acts must be voluntary.*
In spite of directives that all cases of euthanasia must be reported to the local coroner, *doctors have failed to do so 60 percent of the time* -- making regulation impossible."

Assisted-Suicide Guidelines Encourage Abuse - Letter - NYTimes.com


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## Modbert (Mar 6, 2011)

AllieBaba said:


> "
> Guidelines themselves, as the experience of the Netherlands demonstrates, create a sanction that encourages abuse.
> *Official Dutch studies reveal that about a quarter of doctors in the country admit to having ended the lives of patients without their consent -- despite guidelines insisting that such acts must be voluntary.*
> In spite of directives that all cases of euthanasia must be reported to the local coroner, *doctors have failed to do so 60 percent of the time* -- making regulation impossible."
> ...



Do you have a link that's not from 1997 and not from someone who is Medical Director for the Foundation of Suicide Preventation?

From your link:



> HERBERT HENDIN, M.D.
> 
> Medical Director, American
> 
> ...


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## AllieBaba (Mar 6, 2011)

Modbert said:


> AllieBaba said:
> 
> 
> > "
> ...


 
What, no respect for the NYTimes?

1997 was when the ghastly news about the Netherlands miscarriage of *euthanasia* for all was discovered.


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## Modbert (Mar 6, 2011)

AllieBaba said:


> What, no respect for the NYTimes?
> 
> 1997 was when the ghastly news about the Netherlands miscarriage of *euthanasia* for all was discovered.



It has nothing to do with respect. Never mind the fact it's not even an NYTimes article, it's an editorial with no links to any sort of evidence to back up what is being said.


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## xotoxi (Mar 6, 2011)

AllieBaba said:


> "
> Guidelines themselves, as the experience of the Netherlands demonstrates, create a sanction that encourages abuse.
> *Official Dutch studies reveal that about a quarter of doctors in the country admit to having ended the lives of patients without their consent -- despite guidelines insisting that such acts must be voluntary.*
> In spite of directives that all cases of euthanasia must be reported to the local coroner, *doctors have failed to do so 60 percent of the time* -- making regulation impossible."
> ...



Oops!

I thinks that your post was intended for netherlandsmessageboard.com


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## AllieBaba (Mar 6, 2011)

"
Toward that end, she has purchased a cemetery plot and buried her children there, one on each side of her own awaiting grave. Rather than treat her and attempt to overcome her suicidal ideation, the psychiatrist interviews your sister four times over five weeks and then does the dark deed as requested because, in Albom's words, he believes that suffering people "know what is best for them." Not only would you consider the psychiatrist to have profoundly abandoned and betrayed your sister but you would probably sue him for malpractice!
That would not sit well with the Dutch Supreme Court. You see, these were the exact facts in the killing of a grieving mother named Hilly Boscher, euthanized in 1991 by her Dutch psychiatrist. Rather than punish the psychiatrist for facilitating the death instead of trying to save the life of his suicidal patient, the Dutch Supreme Court essentially applauded his actions, ruling that there is no difference between physical and emotional suffering when justifying euthanasia.
This case is not an anomaly. The "merciful" Dutch euthanasia system is rife with such documented stories of people discarded rather than compassionately being cared for during their darkest hour. For example, there was the young woman in remission from anorexia nervosa depicted in a Dutch pro-euthanasia documentary shown in the United States on PBS. She was so worried about returning to food abuse that she asked her doctor to kill her. On screen, she tells the doctor, "I've thought about dying day and night, and I know that if relief [death] does not come, I will return to the old pattern of self punishment, hurting myself. I know it. I feel it and therefore I hope the release will come soon and I die."

"
Here is the heart of the problem: transforming killing from a terrible wrong into a legal right opens wide the gate to an ever-expanding culture of death. Indeed, the Dutch experience proves that once killing is defined as an acceptable solution for one cause of suffering, it is soon viewed as the answer to 100 more. Thus, since 1973, when euthanasia was decriminalized in the Netherlands (doctors would not be prosecuted so long as they followed the "guidelines"), Dutch physicians took their country right down the slippery slope from killing terminally ill people who ask for it, to killing chronically ill people who ask for it, to killing disabled people who ask for it, to killing depressed people (as illustrated by the cases recited above) who ask for it."

"
It gets worse. Each year Dutch doctors kill babies born with birth anomalies - - acts that the American bioethicist Joseph Fletcher once approvingly labeled "post birth abortion." Nor is infanticide a rare occurrence in the Netherlands.
According to a 1997 study published in The Lancet, a British medical journal, approximately 8% of all infants who die in the Netherlands are killed by doctors - - about 80 per year. According to the study, 45% of neonatologists and 31% of pediatricians who answered the authors' survey questionnaires have killed infants.
Apologists for Dutch infanticide claim that parental consent is sufficient to justify these acts of premeditated killing. But unless babies are mere chattel, parents have no more right to consent to the murder of their children than doctors have to do the deed on their own initiative.
Nor is involuntary euthanasia in the Netherlands limited to infants. Study after study of the Dutch medical killing regimen report that Dutch doctors kill more than 1,000 patients each year who have not asked to be killed. Such involuntary euthanasia deaths aren't even labeled "euthanasia" by Dutch medical statisticians. Rather, they are known as "termination without request or consent."

"
Euthanasia advocates believe they are doing people like me a favor. They are not. The negative emotions toward the terminally ill and disabled generated by their advocacy is actually at the expense of the "dying" and their family and friends, who often feel disheartened and without self assurance because of a false picture of what it is like to die created by these enthusiasts who prey on the misinformed.
What we, the terminally ill, need is exactly the opposite--to realize how important our lives are. And our loved ones, friends, and indeed, society need to help us feel that we are loved and appreciated unconditionally. Instead, reporting in the media too often makes us feel like token presences; burdens who are better off dead. E
We are not people just waiting for someone to help us end our misery, but to the contrary, we are people reaching out to love--to be loved--wanting to feel life at its best. E In my view, the pro-euthanasia followers' posture is a great threat to the foundation on which all life is based', and that is hope. I 
Dutch Euthanasia: The Dream And The Nightmare | National Right to Life News | Find Articles at BNET


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## AllieBaba (Mar 6, 2011)

xotoxi said:


> AllieBaba said:
> 
> 
> > "
> ...


 
Whoops, logical fallacy.


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## AllieBaba (Mar 6, 2011)

"
Elder abuse is horrific and on the rise. Perpetrators of the abuse include hired caregivers, neighbors, and family members. In my experience, the motive is usually financial gain. This was true in the case of one of my patients, where a much younger man obtained financial control (became the payee for Social Security and retirement benefits) by taking advantage of an elderly woman's loneliness and dementia. He feigned romantic interest in her, flattering her to the point she became isolated as she took his side against her family members. She became isolated and totally dependent on him. After many months, Adult Protective Services was able to provide a guardian. This same motive of greed could lead to coerced assisted suicide if there was anticipated financial gain, and death could occur quickly if assisted suicide was legal - before protection could be put in place."

Assisted suicide: Support Hinkle bill, prevent elder abuse


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## AllieBaba (Mar 6, 2011)

I find it sort of creepy that Luser is a care giver and she promotes killing off her clients. I wonder if her client that was found in shit ever said he wanted to die, or if Luser just thinks that he should be put down?


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## AllieBaba (Mar 6, 2011)

"The Remmelink Report opened the eyes of both the people of the Netherlands and the world to the extent of the practice of euthanasia in Holland. Remmelink found that 49,000 of the 130,000 deaths in the Netherlands each year were not natural but involved a "medical decision at the end of life" or MDEL. 95% of these MDEL cases involve, in equal numbers, either withholding treatment/discontinuing life support or the alleviation of pain and symptoms through medication that might hasten death. This latter (alleviating pain and symptoms) category accounted for approx. 20,000 deaths that had been hastened by a physicians decision. Actual euthanasia, using the official Dutch definition, occurred in 2,300 cases or 2% of all Dutch deaths. Dutch physicians helped 400 patients who *requested suicide, for either mental illness or discomfort, to kill themselves in 1990. The alarming statistics of the Remmelink Report indicate that in thousands of cases decisions that might or were intended to end a fully competent patient's life were made without consulting the patient.* 

Over 50% of Dutch physicians admitted to practicing euthanasia, most often on cancer patients. Only 60% kept written records of their euthanasia practice and only 29% filled out death certificates honestly in euthanasia cases. In 1996 a second report on euthanasia in Holland (for 1995) was published. In the interim the number of cases where a doctor had made a decision with the intention to hasten death without the patients express request had risen from 15% to almost 20% of the total annual mortality rate of the Netherlands. At the same time, the number of cases of euthanasia, using the narrow Dutch definition, rose from 2,300 to over 3000, a 30% increase in just 5 years. "

Euthanasia in the Netherlands


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## AllieBaba (Mar 6, 2011)

Modbert said:


> AllieBaba said:
> 
> 
> > "
> ...


 
Are you denying it happened, grasshopper? Or just blowing smoke?

And since the facts of the study became known in 1997, that's going to be the date of a lot of the stories.


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## Momanohedhunter (Mar 6, 2011)

AllieBaba said:


> This is Kevorkian's death van.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



So you are saying that he took his patents in those vehicles and assisted them in ending there lives there ?


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## Douger (Mar 6, 2011)

Gee. In the land of FreeDumb will he be charged for the crime ?
 Will his benefactors have to pay the fine ?
I assume he is/was uh murkin ?


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## AllieBaba (Mar 6, 2011)

Douger said:


> Gee. In the land of FreeDumb will he be charged for the crime ?
> Will his benefactors have to pay the fine ?
> I assume he is/was uh murkin ?


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## AllieBaba (Mar 6, 2011)

Momanohedhunter said:


> AllieBaba said:
> 
> 
> > This is Kevorkian's death van.
> ...


 
People willingly climbed into both vehicles.

I'm just pointing out the incredible likeness. Kinda weird, huh? Since Kevorkian wasn't a killer or anything, just a nice guy and all that...


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## AllieBaba (Mar 6, 2011)

FAQ

According to the annual report published by the five regional euthanasia monitoring committees, ten cases of assisted suicide in 2008 were found not to have followed official guidelines and have been referred to the Public Prosecution Office and Health Inspectorate for their comments. No decisions have been announced so far.
However, in May 2009 a leading advocate of euthanasia was charged with illegally aiding in assisted suicide, drawing attention to the complexities of the law. A court in the eastern town of Almelo convicted the chairman of the Stichting Vrijwillig Leven (Voluntary Life Foundation or SVL) for assisting in the suicide of an 80-year-old Parkinson&#8217;s patient. 
In the 29 May verdict, the court found Gerard Schellekens guilty of knowingly violating the laws regarding assisted suicide. &#8220;The criminal law should protect people against possible bad intentions or carelessness of others,&#8221; said the court. Schellekens was sentenced to imprisonment of ten months, with eight months imposed probation and two months jail time. SVL also faced condemnation by the court, receiving a penalty fine of 25,000 euros. Both parties are currently appealing.


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## xotoxi (Mar 6, 2011)

AllieBaba said:


> xotoxi said:
> 
> 
> > AllieBaba said:
> ...



Why are you bringing up euthanasia in Holland?

Why don't we have a discussion about gays being persecuted in the US and cite the new laws in Africa which allows for their execution?


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## AllieBaba (Mar 6, 2011)

"
*Eduard Verhagen, one of the doctors who set up what is now known as the Groningen Protocol, explains what it is really about.*
"Discontinuation of care is acceptable for newborns in specific cases all over the world. In most cases children die subsequently. However there is a very small group - and this is the group that we are focussing on - that remains alive if you discontinue the care," says Eduard Verhagen, paediatrician at the Groningen University Medical Centre.
According to a national survey this group consists of 15 to 20 of the 200,000 children born in the Netherlands per year."



Euthanasia in newborns: murder or care? - Radio Netherlands Worldwide - English

"

In one case, a group of doctors is campaigning in support of a colleague who is appealing against a murder conviction for helping a comatose patient to die without a request for euthanasia. 
They doctors claim the case is not about mercy killing but medical ethics. The Netherlands Voluntary Euthanasia Society is also debating whether elderly people should be prescribed a suicide pill to be able to end their own lives when they feel the time is right."

"Italy's Parliamentary Affairs minister, Carlo Giovanardi, said during a radio debate: "Nazi legislation and Hitler's ideas are reemerging in Europe via Dutch euthanasia laws and the debate on how to kill ill children." 
Unsurprisingly, the Dutch, ever prickly about international criticism of their peculiar institution, were outraged. Giovanardi's critique cut so deeply that even Dutch Prime Minister Jan Peter Balkenende felt the need to respond, sniffing, "This [Giovanardi's assertion] is scandalous and unacceptable. This is not the way to get along in Europe."
As is often the case in the New Europe, what is said matters more than what is done. Thus, the prime minister of the Netherlands thinks that killing babies because they are born with terminal or seriously disabling conditions is not a scandal, but daring to point out accurately that German doctors did the same during World War II, is."

Killing Babies, Compassionately | The Weekly Standard 

BBC News | EUROPE | Dutch legalise euthanasia


----------



## AllieBaba (Mar 6, 2011)

xotoxi said:


> AllieBaba said:
> 
> 
> > xotoxi said:
> ...


 
Because we're discussing *euthanasia*. Not alleged homo persecution.
Carry on with the extraneous bullshit. It makes you look pretty stupid.


----------



## AllieBaba (Mar 6, 2011)

Unless the guy doing the public deathwatch is homo. In which case, perhaps we could work the persecution angle into a reason he wants to die....


----------



## Dr Grump (Mar 6, 2011)

AllieBaba said:


> No, there isn't, you idiot. I didn't say "Jews went willingly into the ovens knowing they  were ovens". I said they went willingly into the ovens.
> 
> The fact that they were lied to and coerced is exactly the point I was making. But you are naturally too dim to get it.



That's exactly what you said. You are not only being disingenuous, you are creating a bad analogy with regard to euthenasia...Fuck en 'ell...got any more long bows you want to draw...


----------



## AllieBaba (Mar 6, 2011)

Dr Grump said:


> AllieBaba said:
> 
> 
> > No, there isn't, you idiot. I didn't say "Jews went willingly into the ovens knowing they were ovens". I said they went willingly into the ovens.
> ...


 
Lol..why don'tcha link me saying they went willingly into ovens knowing they were ovens.

Genius. I'll wait.


----------



## Dr Grump (Mar 6, 2011)

AllieBaba said:


> Dr Grump said:
> 
> 
> > AllieBaba said:
> ...



Are you on crack?


----------



## AllieBaba (Mar 6, 2011)

Dr Grump said:


> AllieBaba said:
> 
> 
> > Dr Grump said:
> ...


 
Ah....no link.

So who was lying again?


----------



## Dr Grump (Mar 6, 2011)

AllieBaba said:


> Dr Grump said:
> 
> 
> > AllieBaba said:
> ...



You said they walked willingly to the ovens. They didn't. You cant' walk 'willingly' to something that you don't know exist. BTW, as an aside, it was gas chambers they walked into, not ovens...


----------



## AllieBaba (Mar 6, 2011)

Yes, they did walk willingly into ovens and I provided the evidence. 

I didn't say under what circumstances, and in fact have already pointed out that the fact that they were tricked into it supports my stance that people can be tricked into anything, and agree to anything. Which in turn is why I said that people who are on video saying they want to die means NOTHING. The Jews sent letters saying they were enjoying their vacations. So what?

Again, my point is that the fact that people ask for death is no reason for someone else to kill them. People lie about the circumstance of murder all the time. People kill, torture,  and coerce people all the time to get things they want. So whether the Jews were lied to when they went to the ovens or vans, or whether they weren't, it doesn't matter. The fact is, they were murdered.

Likewise people who kill other people under the umbrella of euthanasia or assisted suicide. It doesn't matter if the people ask for it or under what circumstances they ask for it. It's STILL MURDER.


----------



## SmarterThanHick (Mar 6, 2011)

AllieBaba said:


> Fuck off, you crack whore. You have no idea of what I've had to live through or what I've witnessed.
> 
> BTW, everyone can opt to kill themselves at any time. When the state condones it, it's just state sponsored murder. You should look into the egregious abuses that went on in the Netherlands when they decided to embrace eugenics. Er..I mean, euthanasia. Particularly post-birth abortion and non-consensual euthanasia. Not that you would care, I'm sure you have no problem with the slaughter of people who are viewed as a burden to someone..anyone...even themselves...


Once again I find you in a thread spewing this moronic garbage.  The usual setup is this: you know nothing of the actual circumstances surrounding a topic, yet give your completely unfounded political or religious opinion anyway, often times comparing the actual situation so something completely irrelevant.  In this thread alone, such irrelevancies have included an anecdote of a family member falling into an outhouse, and euthanasia in other areas of the world and eras in history.  

The FACT still remains that THIS CASE is one where someone IS DYING of cancer, and is in a tremendous amount of pain.  This person has a very poor quality of life with no chance of that changing until his impending death, which is within 6 months, as verified by multiple physicians.  He is being given medications which he will take himself, free from anyone else's hand, which by definition precludes it from being murder.  The specific drugs are designed to reduce unnecessary end of life pain and stress that might otherwise accompany other forms of suicide.  

In summary: you are completely clueless about this issue.  Now is a good time to leave the thread. 



PixieStix said:


> If it wasn't political, then he could just be quiet and die with the dignity he says he seeks
> 
> It is political. Probably the ultimate political statement


Or he's trying to reach out to and connect with people before he dies. 



PixieStix said:


> No one wants a progressive disease of any sort, some learn to live their best and die quietly with no fan fare. Those people are heroes


Dying alone and quietly makes someone a hero?  REALLY NOW?!


----------



## Mr.Fitnah (Mar 6, 2011)

AllieBaba said:


> Fuck off, you crack whore. You have no idea of what I've had to live through or what I've witnessed.



That is  uncalled for.


----------



## AllieBaba (Mar 6, 2011)

SmarterThanHick said:


> AllieBaba said:
> 
> 
> > Fuck off, you crack whore. You have no idea of what I've had to live through or what I've witnessed.
> ...


 
Oh, Hick is here. Now I'm REALLY concerned.


----------



## SmarterThanHick (Mar 6, 2011)

I see you refuted more well formed points with your usual immaturity.


----------



## AllieBaba (Mar 6, 2011)

Do you have anything to say? Or are you just trolling?

Never mind, I know.


----------



## SmarterThanHick (Mar 6, 2011)

Perhaps you missed the post above where I tore apart your ridiculous arguments.  It amuses me to watch you fail at skirting the actual issues with these inane accusations of trolling.  My points are valid.  You can either address them like a big girl, or continue pretending like those facts don't exist as you usually do.


----------



## Sheldon (Mar 6, 2011)

SmarterThanHick said:


> In summary: you are completely clueless about this issue.  Now is a good time to leave the thread.




These feeding patterns have been observed several times, and leads me to conclude that it won't go back under the bridge until it's had its fill.


----------



## AllieBaba (Mar 6, 2011)

SmarterThanHick said:


> Perhaps you missed the post above where I tore apart your ridiculous arguments. It amuses me to watch you fail at skirting the actual issues with these inane accusations of trolling. My points are valid. You can either address them like a big girl, or continue pretending like those facts don't exist as you usually do.


 
I didn't see that you tore apart a thing. You threw around some insults and made vague references...

what argument of mine did you decimate, exactly? Maybe it will help if you actually identify it.


----------



## SmarterThanHick (Mar 6, 2011)

except for that part about me still being correct in everything i've said.   not generally the MO of a troll.  if you would like to actually engage in the discussion, I'd like to see where you disagree with my valid stance.  until that time, insinuation about incorrectly perceived motives is trollish in and of itself.


----------



## AllieBaba (Mar 6, 2011)

Sheldon said:


> SmarterThanHick said:
> 
> 
> > In summary: you are completely clueless about this issue. Now is a good time to leave the thread.
> ...


 

Wow. That reminds me either of Gollum-speak or the killer who dances around with his dick between his legs in Silence of the Lambs.

Either way, very weird.


----------



## SmarterThanHick (Mar 6, 2011)

AllieBaba said:


> SmarterThanHick said:
> 
> 
> > Perhaps you missed the post above where I tore apart your ridiculous arguments. It amuses me to watch you fail at skirting the actual issues with these inane accusations of trolling. My points are valid. You can either address them like a big girl, or continue pretending like those facts don't exist as you usually do.
> ...



well, we can start with your poorly formed idea that this was murder by physician



			
				Allie said:
			
		

> *assisted* suicide is just legalized murder.


----------



## AllieBaba (Mar 6, 2011)

SmarterThanHick said:


> except for that part about me still being correct in everything i've said. not generally the MO of a troll. if you would like to actually engage in the discussion, I'd like to see where you disagree with my valid stance. until that time, insinuation about incorrectly perceived motives is trollish in and of itself.


 

You still haven't identified which of my arguments you destroyed, lol.

You do understand that following a person around from thread to thread, claiming victory without ever identifying how you have been victorious, is the definition of trolling...right?

So which of my arguments did you discredit?


----------



## AllieBaba (Mar 6, 2011)

SmarterThanHick said:


> AllieBaba said:
> 
> 
> > SmarterThanHick said:
> ...


 
Er, no. I asked you to point out where you have ALREADY destroyed an argument of mine. That's what you claimed. Please direct me to where you did this.


----------



## SmarterThanHick (Mar 6, 2011)

irrelevant semantics.  we're in this thread now.  try addressing this thread's topics.  I shot down something you said in this thread.  you replied with 6 posts now of immaturity.

do you concede you were incorrect regarding the points I addressed in this post, would you like to actually refute my well formed points and support what you originally said, or will you continue with your unrelated inane responses?


----------



## AllieBaba (Mar 6, 2011)

I was talking about this thread, you idiot. That's where you made the claim.

Though you are also bouncing around different threads referencing outside threads as well. 

Just one quote, one link supporting anything you've said.

In case you don't remember, you claimed you had blasted my arguments. In this thread. Of course you didn't say which argument you had blasted. I'm just asking for a little clarification.


----------



## AllieBaba (Mar 6, 2011)

SmarterThanHick said:


> *Perhaps you missed the post above where I tore apart your ridiculous arguments. It amuses me to watch you fail at skirting the actual issues with these inane accusations of trolling. My points are valid. You can either address them like a big girl, or continue pretending like those facts don't exist as you usually do.[/*quote]
> 
> Lie. You didn't tear apart any argument or even identify any specific argument. The post you refer to in this post is just another claim that you tore apart my arguments without identifying them or providing any information.
> 
> What a joke.


----------



## Sheldon (Mar 6, 2011)

Dr Grump said:


> AllieBaba said:
> 
> 
> > If that's what person wants, the state has no place there. Particularly not there administering the drugs and holding the hands of people who are administering death.
> ...




Yeah, I don't see the problem with all this. The state sets mandatory requirements like x number of doctors have to agree on the terminal diagnosis, and only x type of cocktail can be used. Obviously all with consent. As long as these laws are written strict, with maybe some kind of panel that reviews each case to make sure procedure has been followed. I think in this case, the guy actually has a button he pushes whenever he's ready. The reddit thread was pretty cool, a major foil to this thread.


----------



## Sheldon (Mar 6, 2011)

AllieBaba said:


> Sheldon said:
> 
> 
> > SmarterThanHick said:
> ...




I was going for the clinical diagnosis angle, considering the context of the thread. Now please, go on about how Jews willingly walked into gas chambers. That was a good one.


----------



## SmarterThanHick (Mar 6, 2011)

Since you seem to have trouble following the progression of this thread, I'll make this easier for you:



AllieBaba said:


> *assisted* suicide is just legalized murder.


false.  offering an option whereby a person who has been shown to be psychologically sane can end his own life in a controlled and pain-free manner, thereby avoiding the potentially stressful and damaging alternative methods otherwise available is not someone else murdering that person.  it's allowing the person to take their own life in one of the most effective and pain free methods available.  People otherwise do not have access to such methods.  



AllieBaba said:


> When the state condones it, it's just state sponsored murder. You should look into the egregious abuses that went on in the Netherlands when they decided to embrace eugenics.


First sentence still false.  Second sentence completely unrelated in location, laws, and topic.



AllieBaba said:


> That's a lie perpetrated by people who want to practice genetic engineering and eugenics.


Still false.  Oregon's assisted suicide has nothing to do with eugenics.  The patients are already dying and have less than 6 months to live.  Note how eugenics has nothing do with quality of life issues surrounding impending death. 



> And it's just a coinicidence that the biggest and best support for *assisted suicide* comes from places and people who support eugenics.


Unless you plan to show that assisted suicide IS eugenics and unethical, this is completely irrelevant, and a perfect example of your usual misdirection.  It doesn't matter even IF it happened to be in the same places that previously supported outright genocide.  These laws need be evaluated independently from their geographic history.



			
				AllieBaba said:
			
		

> Dude enlists the assistance of other people, opens up a chatline on the internet, dude is political.


Completely unsupported speculation.



			
				AllieBaba said:
			
		

> BTW, life is full of crap episodes; my dad fell into an outhouse when he was 3 and spent an unpleasant period of time in shit up to his neck before his mother finally found him. I wouldn't wish that on anyone, either. But I wouldn't kill them to save them from the risk of it ever happening again. Just because it's unpleasant for you to think about doesn't mean you get to off all the people in misery.


Again, completely irrelevant.  This man is not going through unpleasantness.  He is facing imminent death after pain and poor quality of life. It is not simply a crap hole he can eventually get pulled out of, and thus comparing it to the above is yet another example of your completely unrelated anecdotes. 



			
				AllieBaba said:
			
		

> ASSISTED suicide isn't suicide at all. It's murder.


Still false. 


Let me know if you're still having trouble understanding where I've shown your poorly formed points to be wrong or irrelevant.


----------



## xotoxi (Mar 6, 2011)

Alliebabby...suppose I refill a patient's blood pressure medications, and then they take all of them at once and die.

Did I murder them?


----------



## AllieBaba (Mar 6, 2011)

Oh. I see. When you disagree with something someone says, no proof is needed. We just accept that what you say is the indisputable truth; no further evidence is necessary!

Perfect. You may return to trolling now, you have proven you have nothing to bring to this table.


----------



## AllieBaba (Mar 6, 2011)

xotoxi said:


> Alliebabby...suppose I refill a patient's blood pressure medications, and then they take all of them at once and die.
> 
> Did I murder them?


 
I already addressed that.


----------



## xotoxi (Mar 6, 2011)

If a patient choses to be Do Not Resusitate, do you consider them to be suicidal?

Are the family members, paramedics, and doctors who do not perform resuscitation murderers?


----------



## SmarterThanHick (Mar 6, 2011)

by AllieBaba's worldview, if someone buys a gun legitimately and years later kills themselves with it, it's REALLY "murder" by the person who originally sold the gun.


----------



## xotoxi (Mar 6, 2011)

AllieBaba said:


> xotoxi said:
> 
> 
> > Alliebabby...suppose I refill a patient's blood pressure medications, and then they take all of them at once and die.
> ...



Re-address it.


----------



## xotoxi (Mar 6, 2011)

SmarterThanHick said:


> by AllieBaba's worldview, if someone buys a gun legitimately and years later kills themselves with it, it's REALLY "murder" by the person who originally sold the gun.



Not when it comes to guns.  Guns are sacred and are protected by our God-given rights.

Medicine is not.


----------



## AllieBaba (Mar 6, 2011)

xotoxi said:


> AllieBaba said:
> 
> 
> > xotoxi said:
> ...


 
Nope. I'm not interested in repeating myself. Read the thread.


----------



## AllieBaba (Mar 6, 2011)

xotoxi said:


> SmarterThanHick said:
> 
> 
> > by AllieBaba's worldview, if someone buys a gun legitimately and years later kills themselves with it, it's REALLY "murder" by the person who originally sold the gun.
> ...


 
Nice red herring.


----------



## xotoxi (Mar 6, 2011)

AllieBaba said:


> xotoxi said:
> 
> 
> > AllieBaba said:
> ...



If you do not re-address it, then you evade my question.

Your evasiveness makes discussions with you absolutely pointless.


----------



## SmarterThanHick (Mar 6, 2011)

AllieBaba said:


> Oh. I see. When you disagree with something someone says, no proof is needed. We just accept that what you say is the indisputable truth; no further evidence is necessary!
> 
> Perfect. You may return to trolling now, you have proven you have nothing to bring to this table.



oh i see the reason you didn't see where I shot down your ridiculous ideas.  you were looking for a link.  Here I was under the assumption that evidence could be in the form of basic understanding of English words, such as murder and relevance.  

Well, here's your "evidence" then:


			
				meriam-webster.com said:
			
		

> SUICIDE
> 
> a : the act or an instance of taking one's own life voluntarily and intentionally especially by a person of years of discretion and of sound mind


Yes, this does describe someone taking their own life voluntarily and intentionally by a person of sound mind.   Notice how no one is taking this man's life unwillingly.  Therefore, you are still incorrect regarding his suicide being murder. 



			
				meriam-webster.com said:
			
		

> RELEVANT
> 
> a : having significant and demonstrable bearing on the matter at hand
> b : affording evidence tending to prove or disprove the matter at issue or under discussion


Note how the Netherlands has no bearing on the matter regarding Oregon laws of assisted suicide.  Further note how your relative being stuck in crap similarly has no bearing on the aforementioned matter. It should be no surprise that neither is evidence that proves of disproves anything regarding Oregon suicide. 

Would you like me to provide the definition of eugenics to show how it too doesn't apply to this topic?  Let me know what other "evidence" you insist I provide, if logical reasoning and now basic word definitions are still confusing you.


----------



## Momanohedhunter (Mar 6, 2011)

SmarterThanHick said:


> AllieBaba said:
> 
> 
> > Fuck off, you crack whore. You have no idea of what I've had to live through or what I've witnessed.
> ...




The man that this thread is about has done all that he can. Oregon has a system that allows him to end his own life. In my mind it is his God given if not human right. I hope he go's to the here after in peace.


----------



## SmarterThanHick (Mar 6, 2011)

AllieBaba said:


> xotoxi said:
> 
> 
> > SmarterThanHick said:
> ...


This is not a red herring.  You insist that providing a person with a means of taking their own life is MURDER.  Clearly when that ridiculous idea is applied to any other means of dying, such as gun sales, it is erroneous.  Yet somehow you think that it can apply to this situation just fine.  Amazing how it only applies when you want it to. 

You  have this habit of crying "logical fallacy" whenever you don't like what is being said.  I'm beginning to suspect you don't actually know what that means.


----------



## AllieBaba (Mar 7, 2011)

xotoxi said:


> AllieBaba said:
> 
> 
> > xotoxi said:
> ...


 
No, as I told you, I won't repeat myself for your pleasure. I don't do the bidding of trolls.


----------



## AllieBaba (Mar 7, 2011)

SmarterThanHick said:


> AllieBaba said:
> 
> 
> > xotoxi said:
> ...


 
No, I cry logical fallacy when I see a logical fallacy. I recognize them because I'm currently in a critical thinking class, and I think it's fun to point them out.

And I never insisted that providing a person with a means to take their own life is murder. False premise, not worth debating.

Anything else?


----------



## SmarterThanHick (Mar 7, 2011)

AllieBaba said:


> No, as I told you, I won't repeat myself for your pleasure. I don't do the bidding of trolls.


You also tend to call anyone who destroys your poorly formed arguments trolls.  I'm also beginning to suspect you don't know what that means either.  Alternately, you know exactly what it means but are just trying to victimize yourself for sympathy.  



AllieBaba said:


> No, I cry logical fallacy when I see a logical fallacy. I recognize them because I'm currently in a critical thinking class, and I think it's fun to point them out.


I suggest you study harder, as you have falsely referred to things as logical fallacies, as previously mentioned.  




AllieBaba said:


> And I never insisted that providing a person with a means to take their own life is murder. False premise, not worth debating.


This is not a false premise.  You stated, as I quoted several times now, that providing this man the medications that would end his life is MURDER.  Did you or did you not state that? 

I ask, even though I don't expect you to respond to the actual points of this conversation.



AllieBaba said:


> Anything else?


Respond to the actual points of this conversation.


----------



## AllieBaba (Mar 7, 2011)

Lol..are you ever going to reference where you've destroyed one of my arguments?

If not, then you're just a troll. Remember, critical thinking 101...if you don't use facts to support your claim (something verifiable, not just you saying "is too!") , your claim is without merit.


----------



## Sheldon (Mar 7, 2011)

AllieBaba said:


> And I never insisted that providing a person with a means to take their own life is murder. False premise, not worth debating.







AllieBaba said:


> Fucking Oregon.
> 
> Try to talk him out of it. *Legal* suicides are still just suicides, and *assisted* suicide is just legalized murder.




Poor Babble.


----------



## AllieBaba (Mar 7, 2011)

And what conversation points? You mean where you said I had a pattern of crashing threads I knew nothing about? I would love to address that, and have asked for specifics. To which you responded it was irrlevant.

Or maybe I could address the argument of mine that you destroyed. I'd like to, but you so far haven't provided me with that information, either.

When you grow some balls and are can have a conversation that isn't composed entirely of ad hominem, red herrings, faulty premise and affirming the consequent, we'll talk. Right now you aren't capable of it.


----------



## AllieBaba (Mar 7, 2011)

Sheldon said:


> AllieBaba said:
> 
> 
> > And I never insisted that providing a person with a means to take their own life is murder. False premise, not worth debating.
> ...


 
What have you brought to the conversation?

Are you proud of your contribution? Because it's pretty sad.


----------



## Sheldon (Mar 7, 2011)

AllieBaba said:


> Sheldon said:
> 
> 
> > AllieBaba said:
> ...





Aren't you even going to at least TRY to play a semantical word game?

Or will you just up and admit that you're a double-talking clown?


----------



## Montrovant (Mar 7, 2011)

It's fun to watch how far this thread can devolve into a flame-fest 

Perhaps it would be a good time to step back and try to clearly and concisely restate some points or opinions?

Or we can just have a continuation of the internet equivalent of, say, an NHL fight.  Either way!


----------



## Sheldon (Mar 7, 2011)

I think, Babble, it's pretty clear you're a lightweight in addition to being a double-talking clown. You boast about going to some critical thinking class; I think you even started a thread about that. You flaunt how you can regurgitate the names of fallacies. And hey that's impressive. I always that a red herring was some kind of Swedish delicacy. But, you've yet to demonstrate any skill you might have gained from this critical thinking class, and you appear to be completely blind to your own fallacies. The thread speaks for itself. These last couple pages say volumes. I kind of feel bad for you. But hopefully if you really are attending a critical thinking class, you'll learn from it. Have a good night.


----------



## AllieBaba (Mar 7, 2011)

Montrovant said:


> It's fun to watch how far this thread can devolve into a flame-fest
> 
> Perhaps it would be a good time to step back and try to clearly and concisely restate some points or opinions?
> 
> Or we can just have a continuation of the internet equivalent of, say, an NHL fight. Either way!


 
I already tried that. 
This is what happens when trolls crash threads.


----------



## AllieBaba (Mar 7, 2011)

Sheldon said:


> I think, Babble, it's pretty clear you're a lightweight in addition to being a double-talking clown. You boast about going to some critical thinking class; I think you even started a thread about that. You flaunt how you can regurgitate the names of fallacies. And hey that's impressive. I always that a red herring was some kind of Swedish delicacy. But, you've yet to demonstrate any skill you might have gained from this critical thinking class, and you appear to be completely blind to your own fallacies. The thread speaks for itself. These last couple pages say volumes. I kind of feel bad for you. But hopefully if you really are attending a critical thinking class, you'll learn from it. Have a good night.


 
Ad hominem.

Lol.

http://www.usmessageboard.com/general-discussion/158255-logical-fallacies.html


----------



## AllieBaba (Mar 7, 2011)

Thanks to the wonderful examples provided by the trolls on this site who think they know what the hell they're doing when it comes to debate, I'm pulling an *A* in critical thinking.

Math starts on the 15th. I'm hoping for fractals but I think it's just plain old algebra. Ten fucking weeks of it. But I'm sure I'll find something in it to annoy the shit out of trolls with. Perhaps I shall find an apropos equation I can smack them with repeatedly.

Critical Thinking has been a messageboard goldmine.


----------



## Luissa (Mar 7, 2011)

AllieBaba said:


> Sheldon said:
> 
> 
> > AllieBaba said:
> ...



You are just sad in general, and this thread proves it. You were proven to be a moron on the first page. First by claiming assisted suicide was murder, then claiming it wasn't. Along with your response to me that it had not been illegal, when in reality you got confused, and of course had no idea what you were talking about.
How about you go back to bad mouthing this guy because he is writing about his experience, that part was interesting.


----------



## Luissa (Mar 7, 2011)

AllieBaba said:


> Thanks to the wonderful examples provided by the trolls on this site who think they know what the hell they're doing when it comes to debate, I'm pulling an *A* in critical thinking.
> 
> Math starts on the 15th. I'm hoping for fractals but I think it's just plain old algebra. Ten fucking weeks of it. But I'm sure I'll find something in it to annoy the shit out of trolls with. Perhaps I shall find an apropos equation I can smack them with repeatedly.
> 
> Critical Thinking has been a messageboard goldmine.



The only troll I have seen in this thread is you.


----------



## AllieBaba (Mar 7, 2011)

Let's compare references, citations, and facts posted.

No? 
Troll.


----------



## Luissa (Mar 7, 2011)

AllieBaba said:


> Let's compare references, citations, and facts posted.
> 
> No?
> Troll.



 You spend most of your time telling everyone how stupid they  are, while never really debating the issue.


----------



## AllieBaba (Mar 7, 2011)

Luissa said:


> AllieBaba said:
> 
> 
> > Let's compare references, citations, and facts posted.
> ...


 
You're confused; this is probably why you dropped out of school; ADHD...

There was a discussion, which you weren't involved in, then STH, XO, Sheldon and you came in and started calling names. End of the discussion.

So as usual, you're just trolling and accusing others of doing what you're doing. Given your limited understanding, I'm sure you don't notice that others see exactly what is happening.


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## Luissa (Mar 7, 2011)

AllieBaba said:


> Luissa said:
> 
> 
> > AllieBaba said:
> ...


I have a drop out now? Shit, you know so much about me, that I don't even know about myself.
Everyone else sees what a hack you are, and when you have nothing else you resort to calling people heroin addicts, crack whores, and now drop outs.
I guess diagnosing people with ADHD  is new, too.

Instead of making up lies, why don't you back your points with ACTUAL facts?


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## britgyll (Mar 7, 2011)

It's so strange to me that it is illegal to kill yourself. Do you own yourself or does someone else own you? If you own yourself and no one else does you should be able to kill yourself legally.


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## L.K.Eder (Mar 7, 2011)

xotoxi said:


> Dr Grump said:
> 
> 
> > xotoxi said:
> ...



it should be in my hands.

i would terminate everyone unworthy of my presence.


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## Momanohedhunter (Mar 7, 2011)

L.K.Eder said:


> xotoxi said:
> 
> 
> > Dr Grump said:
> ...



Even puppies and kittens ?


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## L.K.Eder (Mar 7, 2011)

Momanohedhunter said:


> L.K.Eder said:
> 
> 
> > xotoxi said:
> ...



if puppies and kittens are capable of posting here, then they have already passed a certain threshold of worthiness.


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## Momanohedhunter (Mar 7, 2011)

Well then good rep for you ! Any one who will spare the puppies and kittens is all right ware I come from.


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## JamesInFlorida (Mar 7, 2011)

How is medically assisted "suicide" that much different than a patient signing a DNR?


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## SmarterThanHick (Mar 7, 2011)

AllieBaba said:


> Lol..are you ever going to reference where you've destroyed one of my arguments?
> 
> If not, then you're just a troll. Remember, critical thinking 101...if you don't use facts to support your claim (something verifiable, not just you saying "is too!") , your claim is without merit.


Well, yes.  I have referenced which specific arguments of yours were incorrect, and stated why and how they were correct, going so far as to link to those little things called facts regarding the very definitions of the words we are discussing.  Since you seem to overlook these facts repetitively, I will point them out once again: http://www.usmessageboard.com/health-and-lifestyle/158199-51-hours-left-to-live-16.html#post3396095

You have yet to even try to refute a single one of those points.  In short, you have stated on numerous occasions that assisted suicide is various forms of murder and linked to euthanasia, which is still false based on the reasoning and evidence provided in the above linked post.  Your continued response is only references to your intro level courses, state no one has refuted your argument despite being linked to the refutation numerous times, and some whining about trolls, which I will also prove you wrong about here.

If you say something truly moronic, and I call you on it, it does not make me a troll.  It makes you a moron.  Just because someone rubbed your nose in your own crap does not mean they are trolling.  You can use any source you like, but a troll is someone who posts specifically to intentionally cause disruption to a thread.  Looking back over the flow of this thread, it is clear that you make moronic points about assisted suicide being murder, numerous people call you on it, and you then spend the rest of the thread whining and complaining about things that are completely unrelated to the actual discussion and point, bringing everyone off track of the conversation.  Now while I could make a stronger argument that you are doing more trolling compared to anyone else in this thread, the fact is you're still not a troll because you're simply not smart enough to be doing this intentionally. Once again I repeat: me calling you dumb does not make me a troll.  You getting your feelings hurt because everyone in this thread is calling you dumb similarly does not make everyone a troll.  Time to take a hint. 

Now, I would invite you to return to the actual topic of the conversation regarding assisted suicide in Oregon and how it IS NOT in any way murder or euthanasia, but I'm sure you will once again avoid that option altogether by whinig about something else.


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## KissMy (Mar 7, 2011)

xsited1 said:


> KissMy said:
> 
> 
> > Un-Believable - He has over 3,000 replies.
> ...


[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pA_ffBMMsqA"]Live Like You Were Dying[/ame]


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## AllieBaba (Mar 7, 2011)

SmarterThanHick said:


> AllieBaba said:
> 
> 
> > Lol..are you ever going to reference where you've destroyed one of my arguments?
> ...


 
The post that you are pretending is substantive is simply a troll post where you state that you think I am wrong and irrelevant. That's not PROOF of anything, and there are no POINTS to refute, you nutjob. 

The fact that you can blather on in post after post without ever saying anything is quite impressive, however. I am impressed by your skill. It's a talent to never say  anything despite the ability to suck the air out of the room with your officious pontification. Though it does seem like a lot of effort expended to no end....

When you make a point, I'll refute it. Try to make one. Otherwise, you just remain a troll.


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## whitehall (Mar 7, 2011)

Momanohedhunter said:


> It should be left to the individual, there family, and Doctor.



Don't you understand that killing someone is murder? You can't include include the family or the doctor in a murder plot.


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## AllieBaba (Mar 7, 2011)

whitehall said:


> Momanohedhunter said:
> 
> 
> > It should be left to the individual, there family, and Doctor.
> ...


 But if their family and doctor want them dead, it's not murder...it's mercy!

Can't see that going terribly awry. Nope, not at all.


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## SmarterThanHick (Mar 7, 2011)

AllieBaba said:


> The post that you are pretending is substantive is simply a troll post where you state that you think I am wrong and irrelevant. That's not PROOF of anything, and there are no POINTS to refute, you nutjob.


The argument is solid, and the proof is the very definitions of the words you are misusing, which I linked out to.  Once again:

You claim assisted suicide is murder.  My proof that your claim is incorrect is by citing the definition of suicide and murder, and showing how assisted suicide does not apply to murder.  
You claim assisted suicide in Oregon is linked to euthanasia.  My proof that your claim is incorrect is by citing the definition of euthanasia, showing that it in fact does NOT apply to assisted suicide, and that it is completely irrelevant to the conversation.
You continue to claim there is no proof to counter your ridiculous claims, while you yourself provided no proof to support them
 
If the above isn't "proof" enough for you, please define what you consider proof to be, because clearly dictionary definitions that definitively show your direct misapplication of words doesn't seem to be enough to show how and why you are incorrect.




AllieBaba said:


> The fact that you can blather on in post after post without ever saying anything is quite impressive, however. I am impressed by your skill. It's a talent to never say  anything despite the ability to suck the air out of the room with your officious pontification. Though it does seem like a lot of effort expended to no end....





SmarterThanHick said:


> Now, I would invite you to return to the actual topic of the conversation regarding assisted suicide in Oregon and how it IS NOT in any way murder or euthanasia, but I'm sure you will once again avoid that option altogether by whining about something else.





You can address the actual topic regarding murder and euthanasia any day now.    No, you won't.  You already know you're wrong, which is why you're avoiding it to the best of your abilities.  If you think that stops people from viewing you are moronic, you're wrong on that point too.


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## SmarterThanHick (Mar 10, 2011)

And as usual, after running out of distractions and pretending her stupidity doesn't exist by ignoring refutations, AllieBaba once again leaves the thread, to repeat her continued ignorance elsewhere.


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## geauxtohell (Mar 10, 2011)

AllieBaba said:


> Fucking Oregon.
> 
> Try to talk him out of it. *Legal* suicides are still just suicides, and *assisted* suicide is just legalized murder.



Fuck you for forcing a man to suffer through a terminal, agonizing death when he doesn't want to simply because your morals dictate that suicide is wrong.  

If, God forbid, you have terminal cancer and want to spend the rest of your days suffering and on narcotics until the cancer or narcs get you first, that's your prerogative.

Others don't choose to die that way.  

Whether this man chooses to do so humanly with a pill or viciously with a bottle of pills or a bullet, he's made his decision.

The truth is that the Death With Dignity act has been around since 1998.  Despite what the detractors have said, a small percentage of people have chosen to end their lives with it.


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## x_anima (Mar 12, 2011)

SmarterThanHick said:


> AllieBaba said:
> 
> 
> > The post that you are pretending is substantive is simply a troll post where you state that you think I am wrong and irrelevant. That's not PROOF of anything, and there are no POINTS to refute, you nutjob.
> ...



I and my former Logic teacher love you.


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