# Another socialist system crashes and burns in Europe



## frazzledgear (Sep 29, 2010)

I have to wonder about liberals who still insist the US must go down this same road -even as we see the ignorant masses in these countries rioting, vandalizing and torching their own country.  Talk about stupid liberals refusing to learn from history.  It doesn't matter how many times they see such a system come crashing down -they insist that if given just one more chance to inflict it on everyone else again, surely they can get it to work!  They absolutely refuse to come to grips with the FACT that socialism and communism have a built-in fatal flaw that guarantees their inevitable collapse!  NO WAY TO AVOID IT -except not to adopt it in the first place of course.

What is happening in Spain and Greece are the INEVITABLE consequences of socialist policies.   And the rioting by these morons acting like big babies throwing a dangerous temper tantrum - is what you get from citizens when your government run schools indoctrinate students to believe it is government's job to take care of you like its your nanny and parental replacement!  Spain and Greece SO deserve what they created here -both in the collapse and bankruptcy of their systems and in the poor quality citizens they deliberately produced.  If you are taught that you will still need someone else to take care you even as an adult, then you have no reason to EVER develop any mature critical thinking skills, understanding of how your own system of government works - or appreciation of cause-and-effect.   Or ever grow up and take responsibility for yourself!  And now the government created morons who were taught to believe dependency on government for their existence all their lives was not only possible, but a good thing -have turned on their own government because it ran out of other people's monies and it can no longer take care of them and deliver on the goods and services it said was GOVERNMENT'S job to provide instead of their own -but will be now as it should have been IN THE FIRST PLACE! 

ROFL -now Spain must deal with the additional reality that they not only have a shortage of money, but of adults as well after the DELIBERATE decision to produce a couple of generations of nothing but big whiny, temper tantrum throwing babies.  They deserve no better citizens than the ones they have now.   The Spanish and Greek rioters are morons who were CREATED by their own government.  Liberalism is most attractive to the immature anyway who fear and resist adulthood -so it is no surprise to see when they get unhappy about something, how quickly they resort to acts of violence and throw their temper tantrums. (Just compare the behavior of conservatives at Tea Parties where no one has ever been arrested to this day for any reason, much less for an act of violence - to liberals protesting just about anything, say -Arizona's immigration law where the big babies believed throwing bottles and rocks at cops were the sign of the mature mind rationally debating the issue!  ROFL)  


Only in the mind of idiots is destroying public and private property because you are unhappy that your government is broke and can't pay for the goodies anymore because the people they had been sticking with the bill for it all don't have any more money either -considered a rational response! ROFL   Oh sure-riots and vandalism and torching stuff will make money magically appear in government coffers.  YOU STUPID IDIOTS -if YOU don't have the money and none of your fellow citizens have it either -where the FUCK do you REALLY think its going to come from?


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## KissMy (Sep 29, 2010)

The most socialistic states in the USA such as California & New York are the most in debt & in need of another Trillion Dollar Bailout.

Conservative States like Texas & Virginia are in the best financial position.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=09ujR5IBoFs"]Socialist States Need A Trillion Dollar Bailout[/ame]

*1/3rd* of all of the welfare recipients in the United States of America reside in California.

California has more recipients on welfare than next eight states combined.


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## California Girl (Sep 29, 2010)

BBC News - European cities hit by anti-austerity protests

_Tens of thousands of people from around Europe have marched across Brussels in a protest against spending cuts by some EU governments.

Spain has held a general strike, with protesters in Barcelona clashing with police and torching a police car.

Other protests against austerity measures have been held in Greece, Italy, the Irish Republic and Latvia.

Trade unions say EU workers may become the biggest victims of a financial crisis set off by bankers and traders.

Many governments across the 27-member bloc have imposed punishing cuts in wages, pensions and employment to deal with spiralling debts._

Trade unions.... who are in some part responsible for the fucking collapse, are objecting to fixing the collapse. You could not make this shit up.


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## theDoctorisIn (Sep 29, 2010)

KissMy said:


> The most socialistic states in the USA such as California & New York are the most in debt & in need of another Trillion Dollar Bailout.
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> Conservative States like Texas & Virginia are in the best financial position.
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Curious - but what makes New York one of the "most socialistic" states?


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## frazzledgear (Sep 29, 2010)

theDoctorisIn said:


> KissMy said:
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Your signature line is such a perversion.  Jesus was not a community organizer and you only prove that you either don't know what one is -or you do and are intent on deceit and distortion of Jesus Himself to suit your political agenda.  What He did was not "community organizing" on ANY level whatsoever and to suggest it was is a total bastardization of His real mission and message.   Which was NEVER about the COMMUNITY at all, but about the INDIVIDUAL -the individual's salvation and the individual's relationship with God and the INDIVIDUAL'S responsibility as a believer.  It was NOT about collectivism and NOT about how to use the COLLECTIVE to alter the balance of power in order to better exploit that power for their own benefit -which is what a community organizer does!  Talk about totally missing the mark.....


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## theDoctorisIn (Sep 29, 2010)

frazzledgear said:


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Perhaps it is you that doesn't know what a "community organizer" does.


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## syrenn (Sep 29, 2010)

California Girl said:


> BBC News - European cities hit by anti-austerity protests
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> _Tens of thousands of people from around Europe have marched across Brussels in a protest against spending cuts by some EU governments.
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Agreed, the unions there are just as bad as the unions here.


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## AllieBaba (Sep 29, 2010)

A community organizer is a rabble rouser. They encourage the huddled masses to express their displeasure with their current situation and demand that other people provide them with the things they need.

Jesus didn't do that. Jesus preached acceptance of your lot, submission to your government, love of your neighbor, and disdain for worldly wealth.

Pilate was a governor, of course. Though what meaning that has to you, I have no idea. He tried to let Christ off the hook.


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## Dont Taz Me Bro (Sep 29, 2010)

theDoctorisIn said:


> KissMy said:
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> > The most socialistic states in the USA such as California & New York are the most in debt & in need of another Trillion Dollar Bailout.
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I think he's referring to the large welfare state that exists in New York.  Not exactly textbook Socialism, but there is a considerable amount of wealth redistribution there compared to other states.


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## Charles_Main (Sep 29, 2010)

Dont Taz Me Bro said:


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144,000 People pay Half of All NYC taxes. If that is not socialism what is


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## blastoff (Sep 30, 2010)

They're called Community Organizer because it sounds better than Community Agitator, which is the proper description.


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## Claudette (Sep 30, 2010)

Charles_Main said:


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Yep.

From what I understand NY, NJ and Cali are the worst hit states. The Unions are a big reason why the States are in financial trouble. 

The politicians in those States gave the farm away big time.


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## Avatar4321 (Sep 30, 2010)

This is showing us the natural consquences for breaking the natural laws of economics: Don't spend money you don't have for things you don't need or you will suffer alot of pain down the road.


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## theDoctorisIn (Sep 30, 2010)

Charles_Main said:


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That's not socialism.

This is.

Socialism | Define Socialism at Dictionary.com


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## Meister (Sep 30, 2010)

theDoctorisIn said:


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From your own source, Doctor:
control of the means of production and* distribution, of capital* 

This is done through taxes.


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## theDoctorisIn (Sep 30, 2010)

Meister said:


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Actually, under a socialist economic system, it's NOT done through taxes. It's done through State or Community controlled businesses.

But whatever scary words work for you, I guess.


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## Meister (Sep 30, 2010)

theDoctorisIn said:


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Words don't scare me....governments scare me, Doctor.


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## theDoctorisIn (Sep 30, 2010)

Meister said:


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Governments scare me too. But that doesn't mean that everything they do is bad.


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## Meister (Sep 30, 2010)

theDoctorisIn said:


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I never said that everything they do is bad....but it's easy to see it when they do.


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## Urbanguerrilla (Sep 30, 2010)

California Girl said:


> Trade unions say EU workers may become the biggest victims of a financial crisis set off by bankers and traders.



Shoot the bankers and traders first...


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## midcan5 (Sep 30, 2010)

This is sort of curious as we have our whiners too, has anyone noticed the medicare recipients, aka tea party? Not much difference there, and since our economy required a massive bailout it could just be this so called capitalist system ain't working much better, actually the great recession is proof it ain't.  So if you throw stones make sure your nation is not another glass house and your whining is not just more whining and not something positive. 


"The conclusion is that, if anything, tax increases on higher-income families are the least damaging mechanism for closing state fiscal deficits in the short run. Reductions in government spending on goods and services, or reductions in transfer payments to lower-income families, are likely to be more damaging to the economy in the short run than tax increases focused on higher-income families. In any case, in terms of how counter-productive they are, there is no automatic preference for spending reductions rather than tax increases."
Spending Cuts Vs. Tax Increases at the State Level, 10/30/01


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## Two Thumbs (Sep 30, 2010)

You have to laugh at them.

Russia fell to pieces.

The EU is falling apart.

And yet they think it will work this time.

How ducking fumb do you have to be to follow this line into hell?


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## Charles_Main (Sep 30, 2010)

theDoctorisIn said:


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The end result is the same.


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## Charles_Main (Sep 30, 2010)

midcan5 said:


> Not much difference there, and since our economy required a massive bailout



Um the GPD recovered months after the Stimulus was passed, Before 90% of it had been spent.

Maybe we didn't "require" a massive bail out after all.


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## theDoctorisIn (Sep 30, 2010)

Charles_Main said:


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Yeah, no it's not.

Taxes do NOT equal socialism. And "end result" is not the same, either. 


Taxes don't lead to socialism.


Seriously, if you guys want to be taken seriously, at least know what the scary words you use mean.


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## Two Thumbs (Sep 30, 2010)

midcan5 said:


> This is sort of curious as we have our whiners too, has anyone noticed the medicare recipients, aka tea party? Not much difference there, and since our economy required a massive bailout it could just be this so called capitalist system ain't working much better, actually the great recession is proof it ain't.  So if you throw stones make sure your nation is not another glass house and your whining is not just more whining and not something positive.
> That's the dumbest comment I have ever seen put down so nicely.  Greece is on fire, Spain is about to catch, But no one has even come close to rioting here.
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A simple glance at the best econmic times in America will show that they also had the lowest taxes at the time.  Fix what went wrong and move forward with that.  Taking from me to give to another is theft, you can call it taxes, I'll call it what it is.


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## boedicca (Sep 30, 2010)

What we are seeing is the looting of once productive societies by the Do Nothing Cabal of bureaucrats, public employee unions, and politicians.    It's a warning to the U.S. to reverse the "Organizing For" movement before it reorganizes us out of existence.


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## theDoctorisIn (Sep 30, 2010)

Two Thumbs said:


> midcan5 said:
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> > This is sort of curious as we have our whiners too, has anyone noticed the medicare recipients, aka tea party? Not much difference there, and since our economy required a massive bailout it could just be this so called capitalist system ain't working much better, actually the great recession is proof it ain't.  So if you throw stones make sure your nation is not another glass house and your whining is not just more whining and not something positive.
> ...



You know that this is entirely incorrect, right? 

In fact, the opposite is true.


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## Micky G. Jagger (Oct 1, 2010)

frazzledgear said:


> I have to wonder about liberals who still insist the US must go down this same road


 Dude, Americans love Socialism.  That's why we have a system of Social Security.


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## midcan5 (Oct 1, 2010)

Two Thumbs said:


> A simple glance at the best econmic times in America will show that they also had the lowest taxes at the time.  Fix what went wrong and move forward with that.  Taking from me to give to another is theft, you can call it taxes, I'll call it what it is.



That is simply not true. You need a bit of education, that will keep foot out of mouth.


*"There is no historical evidence that tax cuts spur economic growth. The highest period of growth in U.S. history (1933-1973) also saw its highest tax rates on the rich: 70 to 91 percent. During this period, the general tax rate climbed as well, but it reached a plateau in 1969, and growth slowed down five years later. Almost all rich nations have higher general taxes than the U.S., and they are growing faster as well."* Tax cuts spur economic growth

The Idolatry of Ideology-Why Tax Cuts Hurt the Economy by Russ Beaton
Spending Cuts Vs. Tax Increases at the State Level, 10/30/01
The rich get rich because of their merit.
http://www.conservativenannystate.org/cns.html
http://firedoglake.com/2009/02/01/newsflash-ronald-reagan-raised-taxes-you-idiots/


"What improves the circumstances of the greater part can never be regarded as an inconveniency to the whole. No society can surely be flourishing and happy, of which the far greater part of the members are poor and miserable." The Wealth of Nations, Adam Smith


"On moral grounds, then, we could argue for a flat income tax of 90 percent to return that wealth to its real owners. In the United States, even a flat tax of 70 percent would support all governmental programs (about half the total tax) and allow payment, with the remainder, of a patrimony of about $8,000 per annum per inhabitant, or $25,000 for a family of three. This would generously leave with the original recipients of the income about three times what, according to my rough guess, they had earned." UBI and the Flat Tax


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## uptownlivin90 (Oct 2, 2010)

frazzledgear said:


> I have to wonder about liberals who still insist the US must go down this same road -even as we see the ignorant masses in these countries rioting, vandalizing and torching their own country.



Well reformed Chinese totalitarian communism seems to be working well for them. Maybe we should try that?


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## georgephillip (Oct 2, 2010)

KissMy said:


> The most socialistic states in the USA such as California & New York are the most in debt & in need of another Trillion Dollar Bailout.
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> Conservative States like Texas & Virginia are in the best financial position.
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When the State of North Dakota does business as the State Bank of North Dakota is it following socialist or conservative principles?

The problem in Europe and this country isn't labor. The problem is a mortgage banking crisis implemented by elites for the economic benefit of less than 1% of their total populations. 

These same elites and their political handmaidens are now telling their governments to borrow at interest from banks, "rather than raising revenue by taxing them as they did for half a century following the end of World War II."

"European politicians now view this as being truly a fight to the death."

A Financial Coup


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## Trajan (Oct 2, 2010)

California Girl said:


> BBC News - European cities hit by anti-austerity protests
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> _Tens of thousands of people from around Europe have marched across Brussels in a protest against spending cuts by some EU governments.
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another 10 years without a serious course correction and we'll have our own Greece fire going.....


whats particularly cheeky is a barber in Greece gets in a snit when Germany won't bail him out so he can retire years before German workers.....unreal.


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## thereisnospoon (Oct 2, 2010)

theDoctorisIn said:


> KissMy said:
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NY has a long standing entrenched welfare system.
Not only that, there are several counties where the majority of the population is collecting soem kind of state benefits..
Niagara County for example was one of these. Before the Seneca Indians built their casino in Niagara Falls, 55% of all adults were collecting one type or another of public assistance.
In NY one can begin collecting benfits if that person loses their job and NEVER have to go back to work.
In the big welfare states like NY And CA there are millions of people gaming the system. Collecting unemployment and disability and no one checks to see if these people are actually incapable of working or actually have looked for work..
Illinois is the same way. A friend of mine has an old buddy of his who was working in the fniancial business at a mid level admin....The guy claimed he had and got a doctor to confirm he has carpal tunnel syndrome. 
He is in the late 30's and collects state disability. 
He has been playing in serveral sofball leagues, plays golf and works out a a gym...He has been doing this for years. And no one checks to see that this guy is comitting fraud.
He collects about $3,000 per month in disability bennies...
Now it gets better. Another old frind of the same guy has been on disability for over ten years.....He was a custodian in a union shop.. He claimed an injury and he also collects state disability. This gem works under the table for an electrician AND owns two restautrants....He lives in the posh suburb of Lamont ,IL , the home of Cog Hill golf Club...
Both of these guy's wives have good careers. One is an RN. The other also works in the healthcare field...
How ironic...


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## thereisnospoon (Oct 2, 2010)

The situation in Europe is quite simple. 
People in those countries enjoy some the most lucrative governemnt entitlements known to mankind.
France for instance mandates all employers offer free health bennies , a minimum of 6 weeks paid vacation, retirement at age 62 and other goodies.
The government taxes companies to get this done. 
The worker unions fight like the devil to make sure nothing comes between the workers and these gifts.
At the end of the day, these are all government entitlements..One clear and indisuptable fact is that once government creates an entitlement it cannot ever be rescinded. People who are given soemthing they did not earn become accustiomed to that thing and then count on it as income or an expectation. Take it away, they go ballistic. 
They make claims such as "we paid into that system!!!"....
The problem with entitlement payments is eventually there are more people taking the benefits than those paying to fund the system.
Only so much wealth can be confiscated from the producers. 
Inevitably , the system MUST collapse under it own inefficiency.
Soclialsm, collectivism or what ever you choose to call it, is destined for failure 100% of the time..


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## thereisnospoon (Oct 2, 2010)

theDoctorisIn said:


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Undersatnding that government produces nothing.....
Just who do you think funds government?


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## thereisnospoon (Oct 2, 2010)

theDoctorisIn said:


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aside form national defense, what good works can you attribute to government.. For example our federal government?


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## thereisnospoon (Oct 2, 2010)

Urbanguerrilla said:


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CLever.
Then who invests, builds and reinvests?
Are you one of these people who think jobs are created out of thin air?


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## georgephillip (Oct 2, 2010)

Trajan said:


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What about the roles played by Greek, German and Wall Street bankers?

"From Brussels to Latvia, neoliberal planners have expressed the hope that lower public-sector salaries will spread to the private sector. 

"The aim is to roll back wage levels by 30 per cent or more, to depression levels, on the pretense that this will 'leave more surplus' available to pay in debt service. 

"It will do no such thing, of course. It is a purely vicious attempt to reverse Europe&#8217;s Progressive Era social democratic reforms achieved over the past century. 

*"Europe is to be turned into a banana republic by taxing labor &#8211; not finance, insurance or real estate (FIRE)*. 

"Governments are to impose heavier employment and sales taxes while cutting back pensions and other public spending." 

Financial Coup


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## theDoctorisIn (Oct 2, 2010)

thereisnospoon said:


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Social Security, Minimum wage, Medicare/Medicaid, the Interstate system, the Internet....

I could go on for a while, if you like.


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## thereisnospoon (Oct 2, 2010)

midcan5 said:


> This is sort of curious as we have our whiners too, has anyone noticed the medicare recipients, aka tea party? Not much difference there, and since our economy required a massive bailout it could just be this so called capitalist system ain't working much better, actually the great recession is proof it ain't.  So if you throw stones make sure your nation is not another glass house and your whining is not just more whining and not something positive.
> 
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> "The conclusion is that, if anything, tax increases on higher-income families are the least damaging mechanism for closing state fiscal deficits in the short run. Reductions in government spending on goods and services, or reductions in transfer payments to lower-income families, are likely to be more damaging to the economy in the short run than tax increases focused on higher-income families. In any case, in terms of how counter-productive they are, there is no automatic preference for spending reductions rather than tax increases."
> Spending Cuts Vs. Tax Increases at the State Level, 10/30/01



Uh huh....Right....
Answer this......should government be required to spend no more than it collects in revenue?
Name the last time any nation in the last 150 years was able to tax itself into prosperity.
Explain your view on the Kennedy tax cut of the top marginal rate form nearly 90% to 70% that resulted in an INCREASE in revenue to the federal government..
Explain your view on the Reagan tax cut of the top marginal rate down to 28% and how that tax rate reductuon resulted in an INCREASE in revenue collected by the federal government....Also explain your view of the fact that with each reduction of tax rates, economic activity increased, jobs in the private sector were created which resulted in more peope paying taxes....
Explain your view on President Johnson's promise that his "Great Society " welfare program was going to end poverty in the United States.

Now, I did not ask you to debate or shout back about talking points or any other protestations. 
I simply want your view of the facts at hand. That is if I am reading this correctly that you do not beleive  captialism is a fair or susutainable system..
This is not an opportunity for you to shout at me about my political views or a time for you to offer rhetoric ....
I simply want you to offer salient counterpoints to the statements above.
This is a discussion...


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## Charles_Main (Oct 2, 2010)

theDoctorisIn said:


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Lets see.

SS and Medicare are both going bankrupt. 

The minimum Wage rate hike, has lead to 25% unemployment among the young.

The Interstate system is falling apart.

And the internet was created as part of Defense


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## georgephillip (Oct 2, 2010)

thereisnospoon said:


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How about the Internet?


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## theDoctorisIn (Oct 2, 2010)

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Whether or not the funding for both needs to be re-looked at, the success of the programs is undeniable. Social Security allowed seniors to not have to live on cat food, and Medicare is more efficient than private insurance by a significant extent.



> The minimum Wage rate hike, has lead to 25% unemployment among the young.


Your opinion, not fact. The minimum wage and other organized labor causes created the middle class.



> The Interstate system is falling apart.


Because we need to fix it, not due to inherent problems. Do you think America would be better off without it?



> And the internet was created as part of Defense


You're right on this one.


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## Charles_Main (Oct 2, 2010)

theDoctorisIn said:


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Thanks for the input  

I was really just playing.

Feeling kinda sassy tonight.

Though I Do think SS and Medicare are money pits that are unsustainable.

The rest was a joke


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## westwall (Oct 2, 2010)

thereisnospoon said:


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The Interstate Highway System is one example.  The FAA does a reasonably good job of regulating the airline industry in terms of safety requirements.  The Federal Bureau of Prisons does a good job of keeping the bad guys in jail, The FBI is pretty good at dealing with interstate crime, the FDA has a reasonably good track record at keeping the food supply safe for the citizens of the US.   

There are many more as well.  When you take a completely contrarian view as you have you lose credibility.  Government has many many problems.  Find those and fix those but don't ascribe problems where there are none.


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## Political Junky (Oct 3, 2010)

frazzledgear said:


> I have to wonder about liberals who still insist the US must go down this same road -even as we see the ignorant masses in these countries rioting, vandalizing and torching their own country.  Talk about stupid liberals refusing to learn from history.  It doesn't matter how many times they see such a system come crashing down -they insist that if given just one more chance to inflict it on everyone else again, surely they can get it to work!  They absolutely refuse to come to grips with the FACT that socialism and communism have a built-in fatal flaw that guarantees their inevitable collapse!  NO WAY TO AVOID IT -except not to adopt it in the first place of course.
> 
> What is happening in Spain and Greece are the INEVITABLE consequences of socialist policies.   And the rioting by these morons acting like big babies throwing a dangerous temper tantrum - is what you get from citizens when your government run schools indoctrinate students to believe it is government's job to take care of you like its your nanny and parental replacement!  Spain and Greece SO deserve what they created here -both in the collapse and bankruptcy of their systems and in the poor quality citizens they deliberately produced.  If you are taught that you will still need someone else to take care you even as an adult, then you have no reason to EVER develop any mature critical thinking skills, understanding of how your own system of government works - or appreciation of cause-and-effect.   Or ever grow up and take responsibility for yourself!  And now the government created morons who were taught to believe dependency on government for their existence all their lives was not only possible, but a good thing -have turned on their own government because it ran out of other people's monies and it can no longer take care of them and deliver on the goods and services it said was GOVERNMENT'S job to provide instead of their own -but will be now as it should have been IN THE FIRST PLACE!
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Spanish Civil War - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Right Wing Fascist Dictator of Spain, Franco, died in 1975. Spain has no death squads today.


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## georgephillip (Oct 3, 2010)

Does your opinion of Europe's "Financial Coup d'Etat" change if US made nuclear bombs are stored on Italian, Turkish, Belgium, German, and Dutch air force bases and planes from each of these countries are training to deliver them?

"Belgium, Germany, The Netherlands, Italy and Turkey: 'Undeclared Nuclear Weapons States'

"While Iran's nuclear weapons capabilities are unconfirmed, the nuclear weapons capabilities of these five countries including delivery procedures are formally acknowledged.

*"The US has supplied some 480 B61 thermonuclear bombs to five so-called 'non-nuclear states', including Belgium, Germany, Italy, the Netherlands and Turkey.*

"Casually disregarded by the Vienna based UN Nuclear Watchdog (IAEA), the US has actively contributed to the proliferation of nuclear weapons in Western Europe.

"As part of this European stockpiling, Turkey, which is a partner of the US-led coalition against Iran along with Israel, possesses some 90 thermonuclear B61 bunker buster bombs at the Incirlik nuclear air base. (National Resources Defense Council, Nuclear Weapons in Europe , February 2005)  

*"By the recognized definition, these five countries are 'undeclared nuclear weapons states'.* 

"The stockpiling and deployment of tactical B61 in these five 'non-nuclear states' are intended for targets in the Middle East. 

"Moreover, in accordance with  'NATO strike plans', these thermonuclear B61 bunker buster bombs (stockpiled by the 'non-nuclear States') could be launched  'against targets in Russia or countries in the Middle East such as Syria and Iran' ( quoted in National Resources Defense Council, Nuclear Weapons in Europe , February 2005) 

"Does this mean that Iran or Russia, which are potential targets of a nuclear attack originating from one or other of these five so-called non-nuclear states should contemplate defensive preemptive nuclear attacks against Germany, Italy, Belgium, the Netherlands and Turkey? The answer is no, by any stretch  of the imagination.

"While these 'undeclared nuclear states' casually accuse Tehran of developing nuclear weapons, without documentary evidence, they themselves have capabilities of delivering nuclear warheads, which are targeted at Iran.  

"To say that this is a clear case of 'double standards' by the IAEA and the 'international community' is a understatement." 

Europe's Five...


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## thereisnospoon (Oct 3, 2010)

georgephillip said:


> Does your opinion of Europe's "Financial Coup d'Etat" change if US made nuclear bombs are stored on Italian, Turkish, Belgium, German, and Dutch air force bases and planes from each of these countries are training to deliver them?
> 
> "Belgium, Germany, The Netherlands, Italy and Turkey: 'Undeclared Nuclear Weapons States'
> 
> ...


What does this have to do with Europeans protesting the loss of sacred cow entitlements..
However, since you opened the door...Iran is a rogue terrorist nation. Iran's president is a holocaust denier. He has threatened to "blow Israel off the map".


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## thereisnospoon (Oct 3, 2010)

theDoctorisIn said:


> thereisnospoon said:
> 
> 
> > theDoctorisIn said:
> ...



None of which are really the business of the federal government.
minimum wage laws have actually COST jobs. Millions of kids cannot find sunmmer work because the min wage is so high..
http://www.fhwa.dot.gov/interstate/homepage.cfm.....read..
BTW most highway projects inclusive of Interstate highways are funded by the states. These roads are in part federally funded with strings attached. 
One, the age to consume alcohol must be 21. Two, the highway MUST be toll free.
The roadway must be built to standards set by the federal government.
There are others. The key is that the roads were built for national defense. That is an essential function of the federal government.
Social Secuity is junk. It went from a very good idea to a simple tax on wages. Once Johnson declared the money in the SS fund was to be transfered over to the general fund SS died. We no longer need it and in 20 or 30 years the system will be underfunded to the point where benefits cannot be paid.
Right now there are just under 2 workers contributing for every former worker collecting.
This is not "Old Age Pension". It is not a means of finacial subsitence. SS was always considered to be a supplement. It's not even that anymore.
The fact that we now have illegal aliens collecting SS payments is an outrage.
The internet? Please tell me you do not believe that crap about AlGore....


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## georgephillip (Oct 3, 2010)

thereisnospoon said:


> georgephillip said:
> 
> 
> > Does your opinion of Europe's "Financial Coup d'Etat" change if US made nuclear bombs are stored on Italian, Turkish, Belgium, German, and Dutch air force bases and planes from each of these countries are training to deliver them?
> ...


What you see as "sacred cow entitlements" are the cornerstones of the European middle class and therefore represent a major challenge to the widening global gap between the richest 1% of humanity and everyone else.

"In sum, the Neoliberal Revolution seeks to achieve in Europe what the United States has achieved since real wages stopped rising in 1979: doubling the share of wealth enjoyed by the richest 1 per cent. 

*"This involves reducing the middle class to poverty, breaking union power, and destroying the internal market as a precondition."*

This requires a dictatorship with the the European Central Bank taking economic authority from elected governments across the continent.

Most dictators find nuclear weapons useful.

BTW, Iran hasn't invaded or occupied another sovereign nation in the last hundred years. Maybe you should worry more about star-spangled rogues and terrorists?

A Financial Coup..


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## California Girl (Oct 3, 2010)

georgephillip said:


> thereisnospoon said:
> 
> 
> > georgephillip said:
> ...



They're what? The cornerstone of the middle class? On what planet? You are aware, I assume, that these 'entitlements are not just their healthcare - which is more of a millstone around the neck of the middle class than a cornerstone - it is the wealth of benefits available to the professional no-job ever class that is bleeding European countries dry.


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## Cuyo (Oct 3, 2010)

Charles_Main said:


> Dont Taz Me Bro said:
> 
> 
> > theDoctorisIn said:
> ...



Using the "X people pay Y% of taxes" argument is a fallacy.  While it may be true, all it really means is that a small proportion of people are making a statistically disproportionate amount of wages.  Hardly an indication of Socialism; the same would be true if there was a flat tax.

I've broken it down mathematically before, I can do so again if you'd like.


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## georgephillip (Oct 3, 2010)

Your love for the rich obviously knows no bounds...

"From Brussels to Latvia, neoliberal planners have expressed the hope that lower public-sector salaries will spread to the private sector. 

"The aim is to roll back wage levels by 30 per cent or more, to depression levels, on the pretense that this will 'leave more surplus' available to pay in debt service. It will do no such thing, of course. It is a purely vicious attempt to reverse Europes Progressive Era social democratic reforms achieved over the past century. 

*"Europe is to be turned into a banana republic by taxing labor  not finance, insurance or real estate (FIRE).*

"Governments are to impose heavier employment and sales taxes while cutting back pensions and other public spending.

'Join the fight against labor, or we will destroy you,' the EC is telling governments. This requires dictatorship, and the European Central Bank (ECB) has taken over this power from elected government. 

"Its  'independence' from political control is celebrated as the 'hallmark of democracy' by todays new financial oligarchy. 

*"This deceptive newspeak evokes Platos view that oligarchy is simply the political stage following democracy.* 

"The new power elites next step in this eternal political triangle is to make itself hereditary  by abolishing estate taxes, for starters  so as to turn itself into an aristocracy."

Ready for the coming American Aristocracy?


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## daveman (Oct 3, 2010)

Two Thumbs said:


> You have to laugh at them.
> 
> Russia fell to pieces.
> 
> ...


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## daveman (Oct 3, 2010)

thereisnospoon said:


> What does this have to do with Europeans protesting the loss of sacred cow entitlements..
> However, since you opened the door...Iran is a rogue terrorist nation. Iran's president is a holocaust denier. He has threatened to "blow Israel off the map".


This is George you're talking to.  European nations have no right to nuclear weapons, but Iran does.  

And it's all America's fault.


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## rightwinger (Oct 3, 2010)

KissMy said:


> The most socialistic states in the USA such as California & New York are the most in debt & in need of another Trillion Dollar Bailout.
> 
> Conservative States like Texas & Virginia are in the best financial position.
> 
> ...



Both NY and California pay much more in federal taxes than they receive. It is the Red States that are the welfare states


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## thereisnospoon (Oct 3, 2010)

georgephillip said:


> thereisnospoon said:
> 
> 
> > georgephillip said:
> ...



The logic of government provided goodies such as the entitlements Europeans enjoy defies logic.
There is a total absence of efficiency. Workers don't actually have to perform to keep their jobs. In France , for example, a worker has to commit a capital crime to be fired. 
Government mandates have businesses retianing employees that have no function.
Merit, productivity and performance mean nothing. Everyone is paid the same amount. It is human nature to notice that if other workers are not pulling their weight then the remainder cop the same attitude. It's groupism to the point of destruction.
Without competition, evryrthing goes stale.
Ever wonder why EU nations have 15% unemployement and younger workers even higher?
Taxes are confiscatory in Western Europe. 
Not here. No way no how.
To those who think capitalism and freedom to choose a standard of living is soemhow "unfair", they are free to give up all their trappings, their cars, their property and everything else they've earned and give it over to buracrats. Leave me out of it..
I bust my ass for what little I have. 
This is not a debate. So, a response is uneccsary and will go unread.
I have stated my position and that's that. Done.


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## thereisnospoon (Oct 3, 2010)

rightwinger said:


> KissMy said:
> 
> 
> > The most socialistic states in the USA such as California & New York are the most in debt & in need of another Trillion Dollar Bailout.
> ...



You'rew sure about that.....While states such as NY and CA may be "donor' states, that is immaterial.
The large welfare states such as the aformentioned, are so broke they can't possibly fund themselves.
The whole thing has reached a tipping point. 
How anyone can support mainataining social spending and the funding of public employee salaries and benefits which are unrealistic when compared to the real world is a mystery.


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## georgephillip (Oct 3, 2010)

daveman said:


> thereisnospoon said:
> 
> 
> > What does this have to do with Europeans protesting the loss of sacred cow entitlements..
> ...


daveman:

If the US has supplied some 480 B61 thermonuclear bombs to five allegedly non-nuclear states and if these states control the bombs and their delivery systems, doesn't that mean "the US has actively contributed to the proliferation of nuclear weapons in Western Europe?"

Do you think the Russians and Iranians might have a different take on this than you do?

"It is Europe's dirty secret that the list of nuclear-capable countries extends beyond those that have built their own weapons &#8212; Britain, France and Russia. 

"The truth is that Belgium, Germany, Italy and the Netherlands store nuclear bombs on their air-force bases and have planes capable of delivering them. There are an estimated 200 B-61 thermonuclear-gravity bombs scattered across these four countries. 

*"Under a NATO agreement struck during the Cold War, the bombs, which are owned by the U.S., can be transferred to the control of a host nation's air force in time of conflict.* 

"Twenty years after the fall of the Berlin Wall, Dutch, Belgian, Italian and German pilots remain ready to engage in nuclear war."

Time Magazine

Why is it international law applies to all countries except the US and Israel?


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## Claudette (Oct 4, 2010)

thereisnospoon said:


> georgephillip said:
> 
> 
> > thereisnospoon said:
> ...




Ditto and well said.


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## Trajan (Oct 4, 2010)

theDoctorisIn said:


> thereisnospoon said:
> 
> 
> > theDoctorisIn said:
> ...



please do, seriously, then I will have a turn.

The Minimum wage is a double sedges sword, and no serious economist argues that. 

Ansd the internet? Yes I am well aware of the Defense dept. connection as to the creation of the device etc...how does this fit into the bracket you put it in? 

How ware these things works? They are transfer payments...


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## Two Thumbs (Oct 4, 2010)

"Social Security, Minimum wage, Medicare/Medicaid, the Interstate system, the Internet...."

SS, underfunded
Minimum wage, doesn't do what you think it does.
M/M, WAY over budget.
Interstate sys, Did you hear about the bridge collapse?  Every road is worked on every 3 years b/c the Fed passed a law that forces States to take the lowest bid only.
internet, so far so good, to bad about all the privacy intrusions.

Please continue, it's fun teilling people the basics of how broken the Fed is.


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## Trajan (Oct 4, 2010)

georgephillip said:


> daveman said:
> 
> 
> > thereisnospoon said:
> ...



your 'article' lacks serious context. For instance, Do you know what classification these bombs are,  as they noted in START?


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## georgephillip (Oct 4, 2010)

"These weapons are more than a historical oddity. They are a violation of the spirit of the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty (NPT) &#8212; the 1968 agreement governing nuclear weapons that provides a legal restraint to the nuclear ambitions of rogue states. 

"Because 'nuclear burden-sharing,' as the dispersion of B-61s in Europe is called, was set up before the NPT came into force, it is technically legal. 

"But as signatories to the NPT, the four European countries and the U.S. have pledged '*not to receive the transfer ... of nuclear weapons or control over such weapons directly, or indirectly.'* 

"That, of course, is precisely what the long-standing NATO arrangement entails."

Not sure about START.

The point I tried to make was at a time when the European Central Bank is making dictatorial demands on labor across the continent some of the governments following the ECB's policy recommendations apparently have nuclear weapons under their control.


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## Trajan (Oct 4, 2010)

georgephillip said:


> "These weapons are more than a historical oddity. They are a violation of the spirit of the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty (NPT)  the 1968 agreement governing nuclear weapons that provides a legal restraint to the nuclear ambitions of rogue states.
> 
> "Because 'nuclear burden-sharing,' as the dispersion of B-61s in Europe is called, was set up before the NPT came into force, it is technically legal.
> 
> ...



you chose an interesting time to bring this up since we , the us has had nukes in Europe for decades....the why is apparently doesn't interest you. 


[quote[
Not sure about START.[/quote]

well you should be because it matters, it adds context....




> The point I tried to make was at a time when the European Central Bank is making dictatorial demands on labor across the continent some of the governments following the ECB's policy recommendations apparently have nuclear weapons under their control.



I know I am going to be sorry, but I will ask anyway; why is this germane?


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## georgephillip (Oct 4, 2010)

Trajan said:


> georgephillip said:
> 
> 
> > "These weapons are more than a historical oddity. They are a violation of the spirit of the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty (NPT)  the 1968 agreement governing nuclear weapons that provides a legal restraint to the nuclear ambitions of rogue states.
> ...



well you should be because it matters, it adds context....




> The point I tried to make was at a time when the European Central Bank is making dictatorial demands on labor across the continent some of the governments following the ECB's policy recommendations apparently have nuclear weapons under their control.



I know I am going to be sorry, but I will ask anyway; why is this germane?[/QUOTE]
I suspect I'm the one likely to be sorry, but here's what I was thinking.

The Fascists are marching again across Europe. This time there's no Hitler or Mussolini calling the shots for central bankers who are guaranteed to win regardless of which side loses the war.

This time the bankers (European Central Bank) are telling labor that "austerity" measures designed to roll back wage levels by 30% or more are the only alternative. (TINA)

If the elected governments of Europe choose to serve the bankers AND these states have control over nuclear bunkerbusters, am I being paranoid to think there are politicians who would at least threaten to use nukes on their own population?

Would Hitler?
Or Stalin?
How about Dick Cheney?


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## daveman (Oct 4, 2010)

georgephillip said:


> daveman said:
> 
> 
> > thereisnospoon said:
> ...



Looks like I called it.


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## NYcarbineer (Oct 4, 2010)

KissMy said:


> The most socialistic states in the USA such as California & New York are the most in debt & in need of another Trillion Dollar Bailout.
> 
> Conservative States like Texas & Virginia are in the best financial position.



Well, no.

NY's FY2010 budget shortfall is between 2.9 and 3.5 billion, Texas is 3.3 billion, Virginia is 1.35 billion.


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## frazzledgear (Oct 4, 2010)

theDoctorisIn said:


> frazzledgear said:
> 
> 
> > theDoctorisIn said:
> ...



What is it with liberals always insisting words mean whatever they need them to mean at the moment?  Same bs they did when insisting traitor meant "patriot" and patriot meant "traitor" -or insisted supporting the troops meant opposing what they volunteered for and were called upon to do.  There is a reason not a one ever asked the troops if they considered that to be "support" though.    LOL  

I know EXACTLY what a community organizer is and it does NOT mean whatever you NEED it to mean right now for your own purposes.  Communication is only possible because of the understanding and acceptance that words have a particular meaning -without which communication is impossible!  If the meaning constantly changes, communication cannot take place because it turns into GIBBERISH.   Liberals despise clear communication because they lose when people understand exactly where they are coming from and hold them to using the ACCEPTED definitions of words.  It is why they are always insisting on fluctuating definitions -always insisting a right to change definitions to whatever happens to benefit them the most at the moment.   And may well be a different definition tomorrow.  Whatever you think might work best for you, right?  LOL

YOU have only proven you have no clue who Jesus was, what He said or what He really did.  Yet you wrote that crap as your signature line as if you think you were making a profound statement.  When you just proved with that perverted and silly statement that you totally missed out on the TRULY PROFOUND here!  Or sadly and more likely, denial of the truly profound.

And I might as well address another post of yours in this same one.  Your definition of socialism was the definition for a specific system of government only.  Again, SO WHAT?  Please don't insult everyone here by playing dense and pretending there is no such thing as socialist policies, a socialist political agenda and socialist principles unless there is first the formal creation of that specific system of government.   Socialist policies have been advocated, pursued and enacted by certain people in this country since the 1920s  -and even though we don't have a socialist government, we sure as hell have a lot of socialist policies in play both on the federal level as well as on the state level in several states.    

Unless you want to be stupid enough to argue having the federal government put taxpayers on the hook by rewarding incompetent, failing and inefficiently run businesses is actually a free market principle and not a socialist one!   Free market principles says there is no such thing as a business that is too big to fail, they should fail and the pain caused by the temporary dislocation of jobs IS only temporary but the later rewards for everyone as both taxpayers and consumers is great because what arises to take the place of failed businesses are better run companies that are better able to compete -and thereby not only employing people, but selling products people actually want and at a competitive price.  Allowing us all to benefit both as taxpayers AND consumers.   Socialist principles says there are businesses too big to fail, they can't be allowed to fail and therefore  taxpayers should foot the bill for the bad management decisions, bad business practices and bad products and REWARD the worst of businesses.  Redistribution of the wealth involves discouraging the successful and rewarding failure and thereby encouraging more of it -both on the individual level as well as among businesses.  Especially the biggest ones that will cost taxpayers the most when covering its errors.  So we suffer as taxpayers as well as consumers by the use of our money to reward failures but also by being offered inferior goods at an uncompetitive price that no one wanted in the first place -and still don't, but especially not when they are expected to pay for it TWICE!

Again, socialism and communism have a built-in fatal flaw that guarantees their eventual collapse.  They end up being a con game and pyramid scheme.  Every time.  The pyramid schemes are crumbling all over Europe right now.  Seeing that begs the question why anyone in their right mind insist we follow suit.  Unless it is the collapse itself being sought.  And since I've read the left extremist's bible _Rules for Radicals_ by Saul Alinski as well as his other filth, I happen to know that collapse IS being sought by them.  And why.


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## georgephillip (Oct 5, 2010)

Given Anglo-Saxon Capitalism's inherent paradox of accumulation the recent housing bubble (and the upcoming Carbon bubble) should convince all but the hopelessly brainwashed that none of our current economic schemes are anything except Ponzi in nature.

"The bursting of two major financial bubbles in seven years in the citadel of capitalism points to a crisis of financialization, or of the progressive shift in gravity from production to finance that has characterized the economy over the past four decades."

For thousands of years before anyone coined the word "socialism" ALL governments sought to socialize cost and privatize profit for the benefit of a select few.

For about the last two hundred years the US government has hidden that agenda behind the propaganda of "rugged individualists" who compete on a level playing field with only the most "successful" making it to the goal.

The lies the rich tell can't be hidden anymore, and it's primarily the capitalists who won't open their eyes.

The Financialization of


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## DiamondDave (Oct 5, 2010)

Socialists... 

The ones in the prehistoric camp... not allowed near the fire because they did not help build it... not allowed to eat because they did not hunt or gather... and the ones not allowed to breed because they show their inherent weakness...

Unfortunately they were not bred out completely in prehistory


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## Meister (Oct 5, 2010)

NYcarbineer said:


> KissMy said:
> 
> 
> > The most socialistic states in the USA such as California & New York are the most in debt & in need of another Trillion Dollar Bailout.
> ...



You just might want to rethink your figures, NY.

Total FY2010 Budget Gaps


New York---$3.2 billion 	

Texas-------0

Virginia------$1.8 billion
Recession Continues to Batter State Budgets; State Responses Could Slow Recovery &mdash; Center on Budget and Policy Priorities


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## frazzledgear (Oct 5, 2010)

georgephillip said:


> Given Anglo-Saxon Capitalism's inherent paradox of accumulation the recent housing bubble (and the upcoming Carbon bubble) should convince all but the hopelessly brainwashed that none of our current economic schemes are anything except Ponzi in nature.
> 
> "The bursting of two major financial bubbles in seven years in the citadel of capitalism points to a crisis of financialization, or of the progressive shift in gravity from production to finance that has characterized the economy over the past four decades."
> 
> ...



How interesting the article you linked didn't even mention ANY of the true root causes of what happened -did you wonder why?  Or just assumed they had no agenda....

It is no coincidence that certain people continue to blame capitalism for our current woes, near financial collapse and recession  -but in fact the cause of them is NOT capitalism, but government intervention into the economy!  (You have to be a real uneducated MORON to believe banks thought making loans to people who clearly lacked the means to pay them back was a real winner of a profit strategy!  And no matter how often you morons tell yourselves otherwise, banks don't want their houses -they want their MONEY!)   

The Community Reinvestment Act of 1977 was the initial root cause -a federal law created to specifically threaten and intimidate lenders into NOT restricting their credit market into low-risk markets or "redlining".  In other words, a law that specifically intended to  prevent banks from making low risk, profitable business decisions!  The CRA required banks to submit regular reports proving they were not avoiding home loans in impoverished areas.  If you are being forced to loan in impoverished areas, who do you think would be getting the loans?  This started the process of forcing banks to make loans with little proof of ability to pay.  The government pressured lenders into making creative interest-only loans, high risk "no document" and "liar loans" in order to allow people to buy more housing than they could actually afford.  These loans are called "sub-prime" loans -the stuff people rant and rave about now as if they really believe this was the banks' idea of how to best make a profit -by loaning to people who were never going to pay it back!!!  Without the government, none of these practices would have been done by lenders.

Then in 1992 the Federal Reserve funded a study that resulted in even GREATER regulation of the mortgage lending and creating even MORE pressure on banks to fund questionable loans.  It led to increased regulation with four different government regulatory agencies that were all monitoring bank activities with regard to the CRA demands and the creation of a ranking system of financial institutions where financial institutions were rated based on CRA lending.  The penalties were stiff against banks whose CRA rating declined.  In other words, banks that made the most high risk loans to people who couldn't pay them back got better treatment from government and those that were reluctant to make this high risk loans -were PUNISHED by government.  *This is NOT capitalism buddy -but socialist intervention with government attempting to change the outcome of who will be the winners and losers in the market place! * Interestingly, that study that led to this was later discredited as the garbage it was.  

In 1994, our worst Attorney General ever Janet Reno, announced that the Clinton administration would be even more aggressive in pressuring lending institutions into full compliance with the CRA.  So now the Justice Department was also involved in forcing banks to make even more of these high risk sub-prime loans -at the threat of being charged with civil rights violations and risking criminal investigations and charges of discrimination.

Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, the two government-sponsored mortgage giants (GSEs, or Government Sponsored Enterprises), became the underwriters for most of the sub-prime mortgages.  This was the direct result of OUR government -a step that put taxpayers on the hook for an ever increasing percentage of these sub-prime loans.  All while GSE leaders bragged in internal memos about how their expansion into the sub-prime business had significantly boosted their earnings.    This is where Barney Frank and Chris Dodd got their hands filthy in this mess -using the power of their oversight committees of these two GSEs to force and reward questionable accounting and funding of sub-prime mortgages.  There is a reason these two institutions were NOT included as part of the financial regulatory overhaul with Congress pretending it is attempting to prevent this from ever happening again.  In fact Congress got right back at it pressuring financial institutions to return to making these high risk sub-prime loans AGAIN!

In 2003 and 2005 the Bush administration attempted to reform the GSEs and repeatedly called upon Congress to clean them up.  Those attempts failed primarily because of the huge campaign contributions by the GSEs to congressional reelection campaigns.  Remember, the GSE leaders MASSIVELY increased their earnings BECAUSE of what Congress had done -and certainly didn't want to kill that golden goose! The top recipients of those funds were Chris Dodd, Barney Frank and Barack Obama, three of THE biggest supporters of the GSEs.

Politicians who were using financial institutions for the social engineering project created this mess by creating BAD policies, bad regulation and a total lack of regulation of Fannie and Freddie -and it resulted in the collapse of the real estate market.  It was NOT caused by capitalism and anyone who claims it was is a LIAR!   The GSEs sold the mortgages to banks and Wall Street as government guaranteed paper and the rating agencies refused to make the distinction between quality loans and these high risk sub-prime loans.   

Congress has repeatedly exempted the GSEs from regulation that would hold them to a higher standard and would have likely prevented the financial market meltdown and the resulting recession we all still know is going on. The new financial reform passed and bragged about by the Obama administration once again _*intentionally excludes the GSEs*_. Our problem is still not solved and it WILL happen again!  Because Democrats are STILL trying to use the force and power of government for their social engineering which is why they exempted the MOST guilty in all this from their financial reform bill!  It was all smoke and mirrors piece of bullshit legislation pretending to do something important but deliberately and intentionally maintains the ability of POLITICIANS to play god and continue with their social engineering project.  At OUR expense of course.  

All while the media has been silent about what is REALLY behind this -because the media is dominated by the left and it is leftist policies that believe in using government for social engineering, the media has pointed fingers everywhere EXCEPT where it belongs!  They blamed Bush, capitalism, greedy overpaid bank CEOs -everywhere except at the TRUE GUILTY PARTY.  Which is our OWN GOVERNMENT and POLITICIANS like Frank, Dodd and Obama!

When you hear the causes of our recession and the typical BULLSHIT insistence it is due to capitalism -but then they refuse to identify the REAL culprits who were and are specific members of Congress and their failure to DO THEIR FUCKING JOBS instead of trying to play God with their social engineering project (which is in effect protecting them) -it means we are being LIED TO!  The biggest culprits are those most insistent the blames lies elsewhere because these are the people who wrote the legislation and regulation, but then refused to regulate the GSEs.  And our media still allows them to get away with blaming everyone and everything but themselves for this!  

YOU clearly have no idea what capitalism even is -because THIS would never have occurred in a free market without the deliberate intervention of government using its power to threaten, intimidate and force financial institutions into bad business practices in the first place.  It required PUNITIVE legislation to force them to do it and they still resisted.  Then they got a double whammy when the GSEs sold their mortgages without distinguishing between good loans and bad subprimes -and Barney Frank and Chris Dodd and their committees didn't require them to do so.  Those are some really smart POLITICIANS for you, aren't they?  Wow, doing business with government backed institutions is a winner-winner for us all, isn't it?  LOL   

And just think -Frank is SO proud of what he has done, he thinks he deserves to keep his job because of his wonderful work as chair of the House Banking (Financial Services) Committee.  By the way, when all this was coming down, did you ever hear anyone in the media point out that Frank not only was the recipient of more than $40,000 in campaign donations from Freddie Mac alone, but was also romantically involved with Herb Moses, a top Freddie executive -that Frank referred to as his "spouse"?  Of course not.  Freddie Mac and the House Banking Committee were in bed together -figuratively and literally!  Frank served on the House Banking Committee (now House Financial Services committee) the entire ten years his lover was a top exec at Freddie and when the decision to use its authority for their social engineering project took off.    Moses was the assistant director for product initiatives at Fannie Mae and had been at the forefront of relaxing lending restrictions at the company for rural customers, according to the Feb. 23, 1998, issue of National Mortgage News (NMN).   But it would take an "R" after Frank's name before the media was interested in holding Frank accountable for his BLATANT corruption and misuse of government power and authority that played a MASSIVE role in causing our recession!  

There isn't enough room in a single post to go over the full extent of culpability Barney Frank alone has in the creation of the near total collapse of our financial institutions and the recession but the fact the media is playing a role in protecting him doesn't change the fact Barney Frank probably belongs behind bars -and is the poster boy for term limits.  I was never a fan of term limits until the extent of corruption in our elected politicians is undeniably and DIRECTLY correlated to their years in office.  The people of Massachusetts deserve Barney Frank if they are stupid enough to allow that man to hold any power -but not the rest of the country.  

The reason the leftwing extremists are insisting the cause of all our current problems is proof of the failures of capitalism -is because their "remedy" is even MORE government intervention and MORE government attempts at social engineering!  Whatever the problem -but especially government-created problems, the leftist insists the only logical answer is even MORE government.  But it is government that has gotten TOO big, interfered TOO much, attempted to use the power and authority of government to use private institutions for their social engineering projects (that ALWAYS backfire on us ALL) and even determine the winners and losers in the market place that is the TRUE ROOT CAUSE of our problems.  Problems that could not have occurred under capitalism at all because no one would have ever been rewarding financial institutions for these bad business practices except government!  And it did and we all get to suffer for the fact our STUPID elected politicians think they know everything, are experts on everything, can do every job better than those who actually do it -and see themselves as godlike and infallible.  But let's not lose sight of reality here -they are nothing but a pack of FUCKING LAWYERS who are actually experts at NOTHING!

There is a reason you actually had no FACTS showing how following capitalist principles led banks to make bad, risky and downright stupid business practices -because it required the ABANDONMENT of capitalist principles in the first place.  It required GOVERNMENT intervention and interference to do it -which is EXACTLY what happened.  So the fact you relied on nothing but wild but unfounded accusations and repeating the same tired DRIVEL of the left to pretend you were making a valid point somehow -means something important here.  You leftists are stupid -businesses are in business to make money.  Trying to use them for social engineering not only fails, it causes FAR more misery for FAR more people in the end.  But the left never gets tired of trying it again and again, convinced THEY are so superior and their intentions so "noble", why they just HAVE to be able to make it work.  Let me know if you need links again to those videos showing House members and chair Barney Frank ridiculing and insulting bank regulators who testified before their committee trying to repeatedly warn the members that what they were doing and forcing banks to do was going to cause major problems down the road.   THAT video showed the REAL quality of these puffbag morons.

Obama Sued Citibank Under CRA to Force it to Make Bad Loans &#8211; UPDATED  The IUSB Vision Weblog

Subprime Lenders Getting U.S. Subsidies, Report Says - washingtonpost.com

O'S DANGEROUS PALS - NYPOST.com

Planting Seeds of Disaster - Stanley Kurtz - National Review Online

Red Mass Group:: October 23 is Barack Obama's Sub-Prime Friday


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## westwall (Oct 5, 2010)

NYcarbineer said:


> KissMy said:
> 
> 
> > The most socialistic states in the USA such as California & New York are the most in debt & in need of another Trillion Dollar Bailout.
> ...






You are correct that New Yorks budget shortfall _this_ year is 3.2 billion, but next year it is expected to go up to 8.2 billion, then 13.5 billion in 2012.  And this is on top of the $122,527,873,429 they _ALLREADY _owe!

New York state budget - Sunshine Review


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## georgephillip (Oct 5, 2010)

"The Community Reinvestment Act, passed in 1977, requires banks to lend in the low-income neighborhoods where they take deposits. 

"Just the idea that a lending crisis created from 2004 to 2007 was caused by a 1977 law is silly. *But its even more ridiculous when you consider that most subprime loans were made by firms that arent subject to the CRA.*

"University of Michigan law professor Michael Barr testified back in February before the House Committee on Financial Services  that 50% of subprime loans were made by mortgage service companies not subject comprehensive federal supervision and another 30% were made by affiliates of banks or thrifts which are not subject to routine supervision or examinations. 

"As former Fed Governor Ned Gramlich said in an August, 2007, speech shortly before he passed away: In the subprime market where we badly need supervision, a majority of loans are made with very little supervision. 

It is like a city with a murder law, but no cops on the beat.

"Not surprisingly given the higher degree of supervision, loans made under the CRA program were made in a more responsible way than other subprime loans. 

"CRA loans carried lower rates than other subprime loans and were less likely to end up securitized into the mortgage-backed securities that have caused so many losses, according to a recent study by the law firm Traiger & Hinckley (PDF file here).

"*Finally, keep in mind that the Bush administration has been weakening CRA enforcement and the laws reach since the day it took office.* The CRA was at its strongest in the 1990s, under the Clinton administration, a period when subprime loans performed quite well. 

*"It was only after the Bush administration cut back on CRA enforcement that problems arose, a timing issue which should stop those blaming the law dead in their tracks*.

"The Federal Reserve, too, did nothing but encourage the wild west of lending in recent years. It wasnt until the middle of 2007 that the Fed decided it was time to crack down on abusive practices in the subprime lending market. Oops." 

It's not a conservative vs liberal or Republican vs Democrat fight.

It IS a class fight where elected conservatives and liberals/ Republicans and Democrats conspire to socialize the cost of running this Republic while privatizing the lion's share of the profits for the benefit of the Finance, Insurance, Real Estate sector. (FIRE)

"Better targets for blame in government circles might be the 2000 law which ensured that credit default swaps would remain unregulated, the SECs puzzling 2004 decision to allow the largest brokerage firms to borrow upwards of 30 times their capital and that same agencys failure to oversee those brokerage firms in subsequent years as many gorged on subprime debt.

"(Barry Ritholtz had an excellent and more comprehensive survey of how Washington contributed to the crisis in this weeks Barrons.)"

Community Reinvestment


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## FireFly (Oct 5, 2010)

westwall said:


> NYcarbineer said:
> 
> 
> > KissMy said:
> ...



There are a lot of off balance sheet debts and liabilities that New York & many other states are hiding.


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## JFK_USA (Oct 6, 2010)

Urbanguerrilla said:


> California Girl said:
> 
> 
> > Trade unions say EU workers may become the biggest victims of a financial crisis set off by bankers and traders.
> ...



Yep I found that interesting as well. Horrible socialism. I mean why not put the idiots who messed up this country so much back in their hands so they can ship all our jobs out of the country because hey that's just good business. You should not demand a livable wage or a house to live in, workplace that is suitable to work in and health care you can rely on because you are a socialist nazi for thinking that. 

Funny how you mention Spain and Greece yet ignore Britain, Canada, Germany and austrailia all of which have unemployment rates lower than ours. But that would make your argument that socialism kills jobs. 

Oh and jesus was a liberal. Truth hurts.


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## thereisnospoon (Oct 6, 2010)

JFK_USA said:


> Urbanguerrilla said:
> 
> 
> > California Girl said:
> ...


Actually those nations do not have lower unemployment rates.
And what difference does it make. 
Their taxes are confiscatory. Those people have no ecopnomic freedom.
Look, I'll be blunt. Socialism is not coming to the US any time soon. So just stop the nonsense.
Lastly. The Western Eupropean system does not work well. In fact it works very poorly.
The American people have spoken. We have made it abundantly clrear we do not want Euro-Style health insurance. We don't want government buracracy in our lives.
This is why your side is going to lose their majority in the House and quite possibly the Senate in about 4 weeks.
You people had your chance. Your side promised. They did nothing but make things worse.
There are no excuses. Yoiu can't blame Bush. It's your watch and you let the horses out of the barn. Your side failed because your ideology is set up for failure. 
 Now this debate is over. The voters will see to that. 
You'll not be getting your government ( taxpayer) funded freebies. At least not for a while.
To all of those longing for a free ride ....Go out and get a job. Get two if you have to.


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## Sallow (Oct 6, 2010)

JFK_USA said:


> Urbanguerrilla said:
> 
> 
> > California Girl said:
> ...



The thing that really gets missed in these proported "analysis" is that Greece took out loans to upgrade it's military.


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## Sallow (Oct 6, 2010)

FireFly said:


> westwall said:
> 
> 
> > NYcarbineer said:
> ...



Like paying more into the Federal government then we (New Yorkers) get back to support fly over states and Alaska.


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## KissMy (Oct 6, 2010)




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## georgephillip (Oct 7, 2010)

"Just when you thought Wall Street couldnt defraud the economy any further, it went ahead and did it. After pushing millions of borrowers into foreclosure with fraudulent loans, big banks are now being implicated in a massive new fraud scandal involving the foreclosure process itself. 

"All over the country, banks and their lawyers are resorting to outright fraud in order to kick people out of their homes and slap them with huge, illegal fees. 

*"It may be the biggest scandal of the entire financial crisis, one that could result in epic losses for the nations largest banks*.

"Weve been hearing for years about the horrific mortgages bankers pushed borrowers into, the outrageous scams they deployed in dumping these mortgages on investors, and the lies they told to their own shareholders about those mortgages in order to boost bonuses. 

"Fraud was a major part of this machine at every stage of production, but the foreclosure fraud being uncovered by lawyers today appears to be the broadest scandal to emerge from the mortgage mess thus far."

If it's true that for the last 500 years the only thing worse for any ruler than getting caught doing business with organized crime is loosing control over the revenue streams produced by criminal activity, Republicans AND Democrats will continue selling America to the richest bidder.

Organized Crime


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## KissMy (Oct 7, 2010)

The whole bail-out was also a scam. The rich have their money in banks, loans, stocks, cd's, bonds, brokers etc. If the system went down the FDIC only insured accounts to $100k that was lifted to $250k during the crisis. That means all of us with less than $250k per account were covered. The wealthy who benefited from this scheme needed the bail-out the most.

If true free market principals were allowed to occur with the $250k FDIC safety net, there would be few billionaires left.


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## thereisnospoon (Oct 7, 2010)

georgephillip said:


> "Just when you thought Wall Street couldnt defraud the economy any further, it went ahead and did it. After pushing millions of borrowers into foreclosure with fraudulent loans, big banks are now being implicated in a massive new fraud scandal involving the foreclosure process itself.
> 
> "All over the country, banks and their lawyers are resorting to outright fraud in order to kick people out of their homes and slap them with huge, illegal fees.
> 
> ...


NIce ..POst an opinion sob story piece and pass it off as news.
Look, the banks were under pressure to get these things done.
Yep the people responsible for overseeing the paperwork skipped steps and for that they should be fired and the people allowed to retake possession of their homes so as long as they can catch up their mortgages.
However to paing "Wall Street" with a broad brush is disengenuous.
I am sick of this class envy nonsense. 
Anyone who wants to live in a socialist country is free to go elsewhere.


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## georgephillip (Oct 7, 2010)

KissMy said:


> The whole bail-out was also a scam. The rich have their money in banks, loans, stocks, cd's, bonds, brokers etc. If the system went down the FDIC only insured accounts to $100k that was lifted to $250k during the crisis. That means all of us with less than $250k per account were covered. The wealthy who benefited from this scheme needed the bail-out the most.
> 
> If true free market principals were allowed to occur with the $250k FDIC safety net, there would be few billionaires left.


The "Free Market" was originally envisioned as a market free of disproportionate influence by the hereditary economic elites of the 18th Century.  

Adam Smith saw such markets as leading the way to equality.

Today those who claim to worship Smith and other classical economists demand markets free of regulation.

Fewer billionaires seems to me like an idea Adam Smith would support if he had the chance.


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## georgephillip (Oct 7, 2010)

thereisnospoon said:


> georgephillip said:
> 
> 
> > "Just when you thought Wall Street couldnt defraud the economy any further, it went ahead and did it. After pushing millions of borrowers into foreclosure with fraudulent loans, big banks are now being implicated in a massive new fraud scandal involving the foreclosure process itself.
> ...


If the following is true, does it qualify as opinion or news?

"A basic, standardized part of the mortgage process at many banks *included forging or destroying key documents*, or never bothering to write them up in the first place. 

"Those reckless procedures have been applied to *millions of mortgages issued over the past decade,* and allowed inflated bonus checks to be written for years. 

*"But things are about to get very ugly for the banks.*

Maybe you are unaware of the class war on this planet.

Wall Street isn't.

And they could take 90% of everything you own (hyperinflation) if you don't get over your "nonsense."

Organized Crime


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## thereisnospoon (Oct 7, 2010)

georgephillip said:


> thereisnospoon said:
> 
> 
> > georgephillip said:
> ...


I was opining on the editorial style by which the piece was written.
The writer used adjectives that slanted the story to inedicate his point of view.
What class war?..The one perpestuated by the Lefties now in charge of Capitol Hill?.
Obama is a class enviest who tries to disguise himself as populist.

Lokk, at the end of the day one glaring similarity coems form both capitalism and socialism. That is a small percentage of the population controls a majority of the wealth.
The major difference is under socialism, the government confiscates wealth from the producers via taxation and redistributes it to non-producers. Socialism is equality. It is a system where everyone is equally miserable. Socialism creates mediocrity and complacency in the workforce. No one has the desire to work hard/smart and get ahead. 
Socialism's goal is to have a small elite ruling class under the guise of compassionate government. Under socialism, the people are offered crumbs such as government housing( in a two room stack-a shack) "free" medical care. The people are trapped. They have no creativity or gumption because there is no incentive to do so.
Under captialism, anyone with the freedom to use their own abilities can become a success. 
Capitalism allows for ideas, achievement, entreprenurism and success. It's a very simple concept that has worked for over 200 years and will continue to work.
When I read reports about the rich getting richer or the "widening income gap" I have to laugh. Any individual has the freedom to get off their ass and do something about it. 
But it's easier to sit on a rock and bitch about how unfair the world is.
I am not prveledged to have a lot of education in school. I got off my ass and found a way to make a better living. I came from nothing. No privledged upbringing. NO rich uncle leaving me his estate. Just good parenting, common sense and a high awareness of personal responsibility. ANYONE can do this. ANYONE.
There is no valid argument to counter this.
I am not going ot debate this. This is what I think and I don't care to respond to "but what about the people who can't...". Can't? there's no such thing as "Can't"..Unless one is physically or mentally disabled, there is only "won't". This meeting is adjourned.


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## georgephillip (Oct 8, 2010)

Why do you bother posting on a public message board if you're unwilling to defend your arguments' underlying assumptions?

This meeting will be open long after you are gone and forgotten.


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## thereisnospoon (Oct 8, 2010)

georgephillip said:


> Why do you bother posting on a public message board if you're unwilling to defend your arguments' underlying assumptions?
> 
> This meeting will be open long after you are gone and forgotten.


Because my opinions are based on logic and facts. To which I will not waver. 
No matter what you or anyone else has to say or post, there is no valid acceptable counter argument to what I posted that is going to make me budge.
I am saving you time and keystrokes.
I will discuss. I do not have to defend or justify.
Now, if you want healthy debate, fine. If you want to argue and try to make me think I should defend, forget it. 
I am not here to make you happy. I post what I think and base my thoughts on facrs gathered before opining. In the matter of opinion, I am again unwavering. 
Now, you asked a question. I answered it in my own way. If you get pissed off because you didn't get the answer you wanted to see, so be it.


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## georgephillip (Oct 9, 2010)

"The EC (European Commission) is using the mortgage banking crisis  and the needless prohibition against central banks monetizing public budget deficits  as an opportunity to fine governments and even drive them bankrupt if they do not agree roll back salaries. 

*"Governments are told to borrow at interest from the banks, rather than raising revenue by taxing them as they did for half a century following the end of World War II.* 

"Governments unable to raise the money to pay the interest must close down their social programs. And if this shrinks the economy  and hence, government tax revenues  even more, the government must reduce social spending yet further."

When the richest 1% of humanity continually adds to their already obscene fortunes while preaching "austerity" to over 90% of the global population, it is long past time for the majority to acknowledge there's a WAR going on. 

There is an obvious punch-back opportunity coming up with the US midterm elections.

Since Republicans AND Democrats serve the richest 1% of Americans first, FLUSH as many INCUMBENTS from the US Congress as possible on November 2nd. 

Replace the Republicans AND Democrats with Greens or Libertarians or any other 3rd party candidate appearing on your ballot that most closely reflects your political views.

In a worst-case scenario, vote AGAINST every congressional incumbent on your ballot!

A Financial Coup...


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## thereisnospoon (Oct 9, 2010)

georgephillip said:


> "The EC (European Commission) is using the mortgage banking crisis  and the needless prohibition against central banks monetizing public budget deficits  as an opportunity to fine governments and even drive them bankrupt if they do not agree roll back salaries.
> 
> *"Governments are told to borrow at interest from the banks, rather than raising revenue by taxing them as they did for half a century following the end of World War II.*
> 
> ...


European countries have been overpaying and overindulging their workers with benefits for far too long. Same applies here with public workers in big union states. 
Obscene? An example of obscene is where a town of 11,000 people that has 300 municipal wokers and pays 40 of them over $100,000 per year. 
Anothe example is the salaries paid ot police officers in my home town in NJ. There are 4.700 people living there. There is virtually NO crime. Two guys I went to HIgh School with are just about at the end of their careers. Each earns 6 figure base pay. Meanwhile, NJ residents pay the highest property taxes in the US. To compare, a veteran patrol officer in Charlotte, NC can top out at about $60k per year. BTW ,no collective bargaining allowed in NC. Federal workers have all kinds of goodies that those of us in the real world can only dream of.   
 These wages and benefits eventually will be unsustainable.
I don' care about all the platitudes about building the middle class and "we hate the rich" nonsense. It's garbage.
Link.....for NJ public worker salaries...New Jersey by the Numbers - NJ.com


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## hipeter924 (Oct 10, 2010)

thereisnospoon said:


> georgephillip said:
> 
> 
> > "The EC (European Commission) is using the mortgage banking crisis &#8211; and the needless prohibition against central banks monetizing public budget deficits &#8211; as an opportunity to fine governments and even drive them bankrupt if they do not agree roll back salaries.
> ...


They will defend socialism even though its failed, its a sad fact of life that stupidity comes in all flavors, every leftist I speak to always equates the false free market as being exactly the same as true one, and tries to claim individuals co-operating on free choice or voluntarism is a collective, so don't bother arguing with them.


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## thereisnospoon (Oct 10, 2010)

hipeter924 said:


> thereisnospoon said:
> 
> 
> > georgephillip said:
> ...



Yeah..Guess who bitched the loudest when a 4% per annum cap on property taxes was enactedin NJ?..The friggin public worker union reps along with the rank and file.
They shamelssly whined about their "raises"...


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## georgephillip (Oct 10, 2010)

thereisnospoon said:


> georgephillip said:
> 
> 
> > "The EC (European Commission) is using the mortgage banking crisis &#8211; and the needless prohibition against central banks monetizing public budget deficits &#8211; as an opportunity to fine governments and even drive them bankrupt if they do not agree roll back salaries.
> ...


How many billionaires does New Jersey support?

Those two cops earning $100,000/year are far more useful to your state than a single hedge fund honcho earning $1 billion/year.

The fraud, waste, and corruption in government pales in comparison to the $17 trillion FIRE sector component of TOTAL US debt (including all levels of government debt)

HS Dent May 11, 2010 update


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## hipeter924 (Oct 10, 2010)

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uk9WQaAIbOg[/ame]


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## germanguy (Oct 11, 2010)

Whoa...this can not be left uncommented.

If socialism is understood in this narrow way, the nazis were by all means socialists.
Still, you can not narrow down the political ideology on it´s economic part.

Whatever the Nazis thought about the economic system, it was not the major point.

While fascism in Italy or Spain emphasized the nation, power in itself, corporatism and authoritarian rule, the German Nazis added to this a racist view.

Theoretically the fascists in Italy and the Nazis preferred a third way between liberal capitalism and the proletarian socialist movements. Practically, especially in Germany, Hitler gave a shit upon ideology, as long things worked his way. 
The Nazis gave the big companies low wages, made all trade unions illegal and made the communists and social democrats (=Socialist Parties) illegal.
The workers he gave the 1st of May as a holiday and raised the workinhg hours per week.
On the other hand, additional bonuses for night shifts were made tax free (and are still today).

But back to the major factor in Nazi ideology: Race.

Never forget, that the cornerstone of the Nazi ideology was the idea, that the Germans were a pure Aryan race and that capitalist states like the US were poisened by jews and their money. It was the german right to form a germanic empire in the heart of Europe and dominate the world as a white master race.

Pretty socialist...

So, next time you compare Obama with Hitler, think about the fact, that Hitler would have send Obama through the chimney. 

regards
ze germanguy


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## hipeter924 (Oct 11, 2010)

germanguy said:


> Whoa...this can not be left uncommented.
> 
> If socialism is understood in this narrow way, the nazis were by all means socialists.
> Still, you can not narrow down the political ideology on it´s economic part.
> ...


1. Many socialist styled states are racist (especially France towards gypsies, Africans,etc), even though racism isn't exclusive to socialist states.

2. I said nothing about Obama, my point was that the Nazi party was a  combination of Nationalism and Socialism, and since the video I  mentioned doesn't say anything about Obama, instead it just compares the  economic systems, what the hell are you talking about? 

3. I prefer to listen to lectures from economists in the Von Mises Institute (which is anarcho-capitalist/minarchist), because you can be assured they have all the evidence to back up their claims, and they are not a puppet of the corporate world, let alone the government.

4. The basis of the argument was that Nazism is totalitarian due to its control of the means of production, control of property, control of wages and prices, charged tax,etc and that because Socialism shares similar controls it too is totalitarian.


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