# Thinking Ahead.....tuition Free Higher Education



## LoneLaugher (Oct 2, 2014)

Germany has returned to a policy of tuition free universities. 

Germany Free college education for everyone Tuition unjust -- Society s Child -- Sott.net

Smart. This is an investment with great returns for the citizenry. 

We ought to be doing the same thing.


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## martybegan (Oct 2, 2014)

LoneLaugher said:


> Germany has returned to a policy of tuition free universities.
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> Germany Free college education for everyone Tuition unjust -- Society s Child -- Sott.net
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Because more people with degrees that don't get them well paying jobs is a good idea????

Why do we need plumbers and IT guys with degrees in basketweaving?


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## LoneLaugher (Oct 2, 2014)

Do plumbers in Germany go to university? 

Think.


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## norwegen (Oct 2, 2014)

Students planning their lives without investing in them.

Yea, that's educational.


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## Pop23 (Oct 2, 2014)

Yes

Let's teach our children that nothing is really worth working for.


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## martybegan (Oct 2, 2014)

LoneLaugher said:


> Do plumbers in Germany go to university?
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> Think.



No, Germany has a problem with unemployed perpetual students, just like the rest of Europe. 

They are doing it as a labor sink, nothing more, and people like you want us to jump into the same bandwagon.


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## B. Kidd (Oct 2, 2014)

The 'Free Shit Army' thread of the day.


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## rightwinger (Oct 2, 2014)

LoneLaugher said:


> Germany has returned to a policy of tuition free universities.
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> Germany Free college education for everyone Tuition unjust -- Society s Child -- Sott.net
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Sounds like Socialism

Higher education should be reserved for those who can afford it....it is the American way


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## ClosedCaption (Oct 2, 2014)

martybegan said:


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More people with education is always a good idea.  Well paying jobs isnt their fault now is it...Sounds like an argument to raise wages oooorrrrrr complain about low wages and be PRO keeping those wages low



> Why do we need plumbers and IT guys with degrees in basketweaving?



Nice fucking strawman there.

There is literally no down side to a more educated public.


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## ClosedCaption (Oct 2, 2014)

Pop23 said:


> Yes
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> Let's teach our children that nothing is really worth working for.



You dont have to work in college?


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## norwegen (Oct 2, 2014)

ClosedCaption said:


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Yes, jobs in college are useful when we're paying our tuition, or supplementing the assistance we get from loans, parents, etc.


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## ClosedCaption (Oct 2, 2014)

norwegen said:


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Were you attempting to answer me or nah?


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## Samson (Oct 2, 2014)

LoneLaugher said:


> Germany has returned to a policy of tuition free universities.
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> Germany Free college education for everyone Tuition unjust -- Society s Child -- Sott.net
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I'm not sure we're not doing the same thing:

_The alternative, American model has had some success in various stages, but now, the results seem catastrophic - *the US has over $1 trillion in student debt, and the number keeps growing*, something which accentuates the country's economic crisis._​"Tuition Free" does not mean that there's no costs. The Nation pays these costs. In the USA, students can receive government low interest loans. In Europe, the government pays the Universities. Either way Government pays, and any resulting debt, "accentuates the country's economic crisis." State university systems, while not free, are subsidized, so again there is debt.


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## LoneLaugher (Oct 2, 2014)

Every dollar spent on higher eduction returns at least 2 dollars in tax revenue. Often more. It is an investment.

The GI bill is proof that the idea works.


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## norwegen (Oct 2, 2014)

ClosedCaption said:


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Yes.  See, that's how it works.  Your post was the one that I clicked on when I answered.

You didn't work your way through college, did you?


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## Samson (Oct 2, 2014)

LoneLaugher said:


> Every dollar spent on higher eduction returns at least 2 dollars in tax revenue. Often more. It is an investment.
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> The GI bill is proof that the idea works.




The GI Bill is proof that, in exchange for Military Service, people value Education.

It is not proof that people would value education more if they did not pay for it through Military service.


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## LoneLaugher (Oct 2, 2014)

Samson said:


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Only a weird person thinks that people who currently go deep into debt for an education don't value it. These same people would value it if tuition were free. 

Silly nutter.


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## Samson (Oct 2, 2014)

LoneLaugher said:


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Your definition of valuing something is going "deeply into debt for" it.

Bankruptcy must represent some ultimate achievement for you.


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## ClosedCaption (Oct 2, 2014)

norwegen said:


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So I asked if you didnt have to work while in college and your response is yes jobs in college are useful.

Do you see where I asked if jobs were useful?  No...Ok then


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## LoneLaugher (Oct 2, 2014)

Samson said:


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You keep trying and failing.


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## Samson (Oct 2, 2014)

ClosedCaption said:


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I think the point is that education itself may be "work."

Certainly not in any familiar definition: While a student may "work" at learning something, he doesn't get paid for this, and the learning process produces nothing of commercial value

He may as well be said to be "working" in any masturbatory activity.


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## Samson (Oct 2, 2014)

LoneLaugher said:


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Deep thoughts.

They must hurt you.


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## LoneLaugher (Oct 2, 2014)

Samson said:


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Are you claiming to have presented deep thoughts?


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## Rikurzhen (Oct 2, 2014)

LoneLaugher said:


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Most people go to university to earn a credential that they can use in the job market. In my experience, only about 15 to 20 percent of students actually care about what they learn, the rest just go through the motions because it's the expected thing to do. They put more care and passion into their social lives and sports and political interests than they do into learning the wonders of organic chemistry or studying Aristotle.

Secondly, to your broader point, there really is no value to society in pursuing this strategy. Studies have looked at the wage premium earned by people with higher degrees. There certainly WAS a wage premium but that's diminished as more and more college graduates take jobs as shoe salesmen, coffee baristas, call center operators. Those low end jobs are diluting the wage premium. More importantly, even when there was a measured wage premium, that wage premium disappeared when researchers controlled for the IQ of the degree holder. Employers weren't paying more for college graduates because they had read Chaucer or were up on the latest in Women's Studies feminist theory, they paid more because they found that hiring intelligent people was more effective and profitable than hiring less intelligent people. The knowledge gained in university was mostly useless, the exception being skills demanded by the market, such as mathematical fluency, engineering, chemistry, law, medicine, business, but very few uses for sociology skills or art history.

University is a very costly distraction for society which returns little benefit. Far better to create a system where young people can enter the workforce sooner, produce value rather than consume value, be screened for intelligence by employers and pick up specific skills from one-off university courses.

Of course, that approach would disadvantage blacks and that's why we have the system structured as we do - millions upon millions have to waste years of their lives to earn a credential to enter the job market, a credential which signals what could be determined from a 90 minute test.


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## LoneLaugher (Oct 2, 2014)

Bullshit.


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## Samson (Oct 2, 2014)

Rikurzhen said:


> University is a very costly distraction for society which returns little benefit. Far better to create a system where young people can enter the workforce sooner, produce value rather than consume value, be screened for intelligence by employers and pick up specific skills from one-off university courses.
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> Of course, that approach would disadvantage blacks and that's why we have the system structured as we do - millions upon millions have to waste years of their lives to earn a credential to enter the job market, a credential which signals what could be determined from a 90 minute test.



Why would, "a system where young people can enter the workforce sooner," be a disadvantage to anyone, regardless of race?


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## Rikurzhen (Oct 2, 2014)

LoneLaugher said:


> Bullshit.


You worship bullshit?
You eat bullshit?
You vote for bullshit?


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## Samson (Oct 2, 2014)

Rikurzhen said:


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## Rikurzhen (Oct 2, 2014)

Samson said:


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When stated your way, it's not a disadvantage to anyone. The problem arises when employers try to assess the job candidates. A college degree is a rough proxy for intelligence, so they can assess intelligence by whether the applicant has a degree or not. The rise of college degrees as a proxy for intelligence really took off after the Supreme Court ruling in Griggs vs. Duke Power which banned the use of general intelligence tests in the hiring process. What a 90 minutes test told the employer now requires a 4 year degree to signal the same information.


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## LoneLaugher (Oct 2, 2014)

People with a college education earn more money in their lifetime than those who do not. They are more productive. They contribute more to the commons. Their children are more likely to be productive in life. 

Idiots want fewer college graduates. Period. If you are in favor of limiting the number of Americans with college degrees, you might be an idiot. And you cannot claim to be having deep thoughts.


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## Samson (Oct 2, 2014)

Rikurzhen said:


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Meh.

Hiring managers can determine the intelligence of a candidate within minutes of an interview: No general intelligence test or degree is necessary.

The Degreed Candidate is only preferred because many already accepted candidates happen to possess the degree: Hiring managers thus CYA with the degree. E.g., "how was I supposed to know Lonelaughter was an imbecile?

_HE HAD A DEGREE!!"_


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## Rikurzhen (Oct 2, 2014)

LoneLaugher said:


> People with a college education earn more money in their lifetime than those who do not.



What you're observing is correlation, not causation. Smart people tended to go to college. In the employment market they were rewarded for doing well, they did well because they were intelligent, not because they majored in child psychology in college.

It's the same process that liberals always mistakenly interpret. Liberals saw that middle class home owners were upright citizens and they believed that being a home owner is what caused people to become middle class and upright citizens so they launched a massive program to encourage blacks and Hispanics to become home owners, banking on the fact that this would turn them into upright citizens who were middle class.

Bzzt. Wrong. Upright middle class people bought homes because they were upright middle class people. Smart people went to college and did well later in their careers because they were smart. 



> They are more productive. They contribute more to the commons. Their children are more likely to be productive in life.



All this arises from their personal qualities, not from earning a degree. If Charles Manson earns a degree in prison, that doesn't change him into Ward Cleaver.

Inequality and Ability:

Using data from the NLS, Murnane et al. (1995) report that* basic cognitive skills learned prior to high school had a much larger impact on the wages for 24-year-old men and women in 1986 than in 1978 in the United States.* The cognitive measures they use are basic skills such as following directions, facility with fractions and decimals, and interpretation of line graphs. In other research, Ferguson (1993) finds that* adding basic skills into the wage regression wipes out the estimated growth in the return to schooling during the 1980s in the United States.* Using the AFQT score as a measure of ability, Ferguson shows that the return to basic skills rises during the 1980s and converges within all education groups. . . . 

In contrast to the literature summarized in Section 2, these results are the first to show *that a measure for mental ability is becoming increasingly important *within sectors over time. *The addition of IQ also serves to wipe out the limited increase in the return to education in the professional sector,* as well as decreasing the estimated increase in the return to education in the service sector: the return to education in the service sector increases from 9% to 11% instead of 9% to 14% without IQ. However, the inclusion of IQ into the analysis does not meaningfully affect the size or trend of the residual variance within each of the three occupational sectors. . . .

*The addition of IQ into the analysis reduces the returns to education, particularly for 1992, so that there is virtually no appreciable increase in the return to education in either sector after controlling for IQ. The increasing return to education found in Table 6 is now picked up by the increasing return to IQ in the professional and service sectors.* . . . 

The results show that ‘‘residual inequality’’ is increasing over time due to *an increasing emphasis on mental ability and/or the general unobservable skill within each occupation.* Consequently, the trend in residual inequality is being driven by technology not only dispersing the variances of abilities, but more importantly it is increasingly emphasizing general skills versus sector-specific skills over time.​


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## Rikurzhen (Oct 2, 2014)

Samson said:


> Hiring managers can determine the intelligence of a candidate within minutes of an interview: No general intelligence test or degree is necessary



Slate:

The evidence is overwhelming. Take tank gunners. *You wouldn't think intelligence would have much effect on the ability to shoot straight, but apparently it does.* Replacing a gunner who'd scored Category IV on the aptitude test (ranking in the 10-30 percentile) with one who'd scored Category IIIA (50-64 percentile) improved the chances of hitting targets by 34 percent. (For more on the meaning of the test scores, click here.)

In another study cited by the RAND report, 84 three-man teams from the Army's active-duty signal battalions were given the task of making a communications system operational. Teams consisting of Category IIIA personnel had a 67 percent chance of succeeding. Those consisting of Category IIIB (who'd ranked in the 31-49 percentile on the aptitude test) had a 47 percent chance. Those with Category IV personnel had only a 29 percent chance.

The same study of signal battalions took soldiers who had just taken advanced individual training courses and asked them to troubleshoot a faulty piece of communications gear. They passed if they were able to identify at least two technical problems. Smarts trumped training. Among those who had scored Category I on the aptitude test (in the 93-99 percentile), 97 percent passed. Among those who'd scored Category II (in the 65-92 percentile), 78 percent passed. Category IIIA: 60 percent passed. Category IIIB: 43 percent passed. Category IV: a mere 25 percent passed.

The pattern is clear:* The higher the score on the aptitude test, the better the performance in the field.* This is true for individual soldiers and for units. Moreover, the study showed that adding one high-scoring soldier to a three-man signals team boosted its chance of success by 8 percent (meaning that adding one low-scoring soldier boosts its chance of failure by a similar margin).

Smarter also turns out to be cheaper. One study examined how many Patriot missiles various Army air-defense units had to fire in order to destroy 10 targets. Units with Category I personnel had to fire 20 missiles. Those with Category II had to fire 21 missiles. Category IIIA: 22. Category IIIB: 23. Category IV: 24 missiles. In other words, to perform the same task, Category IV units chewed up 20 percent more hardware than Category I units. For this particular task, since each Patriot missile costs about $2 million, they also chewed up $8 million more of the Army's procurement budget.​


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## flacaltenn (Oct 2, 2014)

rightwinger said:


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No excuses.. You can get a 1/2 tuition waiver with Lottery funds even in a "backwards" Red State like my Tennessee if you can keep a B average. In California, you can get a 2 year degree for the cost of owning cable and cell phone. No WAY I would want to do more than that for people who insist on wasting their parent's money. It's a proposal that ALL those bitter Liberal Arts students amongst us just love..


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## Dont Taz Me Bro (Oct 2, 2014)

rightwinger said:


> Higher education should be reserved for those who can afford it....it is the American way



I completely agree.


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## flacaltenn (Oct 2, 2014)

LoneLaugher said:


> People with a college education earn more money in their lifetime than those who do not. They are more productive. They contribute more to the commons. Their children are more likely to be productive in life.
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> Idiots want fewer college graduates. Period. If you are in favor of limiting the number of Americans with college degrees, you might be an idiot. And you cannot claim to be having deep thoughts.



You're quoting a generalization. ON AVERAGE, that's probably correct. But there's a LARGE fraction of graduates who end up never using the credentials either because there is no market for them OR they didn't research the jobs and the careers and it doesn't appeal to them. 

Not hard for Harvard or MIT to balance out the salary failures at about a dozen other universities. 

Which brings up the next point.... If it's FREE ---- why can't my kid go to NorthWestern instead of Miss. State???


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## Rikurzhen (Oct 2, 2014)

There's a shit-ton of studies which demonstrate that it's IQ that employers want and reward, not the skills learned in film criticism class

Returns To Schooling And Bayesian Model Averaging: A Union Of Two Literatures

Some studies, such as Blackburn and Neumark (1993), Murnane Levy and Willett (1995), Grogger and Eide (1995) and Heckman and Vytlacil (2001) have investigated whether the increase in return to schooling over this period is attributable to a reward for additional schooling, or a changing premium for measured ability. The typical approach in these studies is to allow for ability-education and ability-education-time interactions to determine if the growing return to education has been experienced primarily by those of highest ability. *The general conclusion has been that after controlling for ability, the growth in the college wage premium is more modest*, and Heckman and Vytlacil (2001) report that *the college wage gap has been growing only for those in the highest ability quartile.*​
Here's a fantastic natural experiment which took place:

Shrinking Earnings Premium for University Graduates in Hong Kong: The Effect of Quantity or Quality?

In 1989, the Hong Kong government embarked on a program to increase the provision of first-year first-degree places from 7 percent of the 17–20 age cohort to 18 percent. *The number of university students doubled in five years. *Since university places are tightly controlled by the government, the expansion program represents an exogenous increase in supply of university graduates to the labor market. This paper shows that the increase in supply has brought about a decline in the earnings premium for college workers. Moreover, the decline is more substantial among younger workers than among older workers. We also find that locally educated university graduates used to earn significantly more than did overseas graduates. Their earnings advantage, however, had declined between 1986 and 2001, particularly among the younger age group. *These observations suggest that the decline in the university earnings premium is probably more the result of declining quality of university graduates than of a labor market crowding effect.*​Ability, Educational Ranks, and Labor Market Trends: The Effects of Shifts in the Skill Composition of Educational Groups

One might wonder whether the strong results for the effects of changes in the composition of educational groups on weekly earnings education differentials hold for other outcomes, such as employment and annual earnings. In fact, the effects of including educational ranks are considerably stronger for these outcomes. *For annual employment, education differentials are slightly negative once educational ranks are included suggesting that employment differentials are more closely related to a person’s educational rank than their educational attainment. *Moreover, accounting for changes in composition of educational groups results in change in the 1969-1989 college/high school annual employment differential switching from a 1.3 percentage point increase to a 0.9 percentage point decrease.

Similarly, the results for annual earnings are quite strong. *For example, the difference in annual earnings between college graduates and high school dropouts increases by 32.6 percentage points between 1959 and 1989. After accounting for changes in the composition of educational groups, this increase falls to a dramatically smaller 11.5 percentage points. Without question, accounting for changes in the composition of educational groups generates a very different picture of the U.S. labor market.*​


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## rightwinger (Oct 2, 2014)

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I know...because American students are just like their parents. dumb and lazy and looking for a handout

It is a cornerstone of the Republican platform


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## Samson (Oct 2, 2014)

Rikurzhen said:


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You appear to be trying to make a point that a intelligence test is good.

This is not a counterpoint to the statement that hiring managers can assess intelligence within minutes of an interview.


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## Bush92 (Oct 2, 2014)

We need our manufacturing base back in the United States. Not everyone wants or needs a college degree. Leave tuition up to the states. In some states if a student maintains a high enough GPA they get all or some of their tuition paid at any STATE school. If you want to go to Princeton and live in New Mexico then you better get scholarship money. The federal student loan program is corrupt.


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## Samson (Oct 2, 2014)

rightwinger said:


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Always nice to hear from the Partisan Rabble.

Thanks


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## Bush92 (Oct 2, 2014)

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Nobody has ever said that you stupid fucking asshole. Hard workers will ride regardless of where they start in life.


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## Rikurzhen (Oct 2, 2014)

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 Evidence please.


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## Samson (Oct 2, 2014)

Bush92 said:


> We need our manufacturing base back in the United States. Not everyone wants or needs a college degree. Leave tuition up to the states. In some states if a student maintains a high enough GPA they get all or some of their tuition paid at any STATE school. If you want to go to Princeton and live in New Mexico then you better get scholarship money. The federal student loan program is corrupt.




You are completely correct.

1. Ever try to talk to a HS counselor about a trade school option after graduation? They look at you like you're from another planet.

2. Even if they're on the same planet, FEW opportunities for preparing for trades are offered in HS. There is One option. Either accept that you will be warehoused until reaching 18 yo, or take college prep courses.


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## Samson (Oct 2, 2014)

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Its my opinion.

You have no contradictory evidence?


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## Rikurzhen (Oct 2, 2014)

Unobserved Ability and the Return to Schooling

The correlation between ability in school and ability in the market is found to be high (0.95). *Holding market ability constant, we find a strong positive correlation between average returns and school ability, = 0:80*. This positive correlation implies that, holding market ability and family background variables constant, those endowed with higher school *ability *will also experience *higher average returns*. This is an illustration of the discount rate bias. As expected, and contrary to school ability, the partial correlation between market ability and* schooling is negative, = -0.84*.​


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## Rikurzhen (Oct 2, 2014)

Samson said:


> Its my opinion.
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It's impossible to assess someone's intelligence by merely talking to the person. One can certainly guess quite accurately on binary choices - "is he intelligent or not" - but that's not an assessment, it's just a crude sorting.


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## Samson (Oct 2, 2014)

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So what?

Life is a Crude Sorting.


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## LoneLaugher (Oct 2, 2014)

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an

an intelligence test


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## Rikurzhen (Oct 2, 2014)

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Because employers want more than a crude sorting. Even with tank gunners, the finer your evaluation on IQ the more accurate your tank gunners perform. That's why testing came about - the IQ tests are validated continuously to make for more accurate predictions.

Secondly, even for the crude sorting, the IQ of the hiring official is a limiting factor. The 105 IQ manager might be able to sort out the 80 IQ and the 90 IQ and the 100 IQ people from each other but he's going to have an impossible task to sort out the 115 IQ from the 125 IQ from the 135 IQ people.


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## Samson (Oct 2, 2014)

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Most employers need a very crude sorting of IQ for entry level positions. A simple interview will suffice. Of course if hiring managers are not terribly smart themselves, then that serves as something of a baseline for the job.

I'm not saying IQ tests are worthless; I'm just saying they are unnecessary for most employment positions.


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## Pop23 (Oct 2, 2014)

FREE STUFF!

Our new national slogan


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## Rikurzhen (Oct 2, 2014)

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You don't need to be Einstein to be a tank gunner, but if you are Einstein then it's likely that you're going to be a more effective and accurate tank gunner.

Business is concerned with productivity. So yes, you're right we don't NEED to sort by intelligence for most employment positions, we can put bodies into the job positions and the work will kind of get down, in one fashion or another, and the companies will be inefficiency hellholes and go bankrupt. From the Slate article:

Smarter also turns out to be cheaper. One study examined how many Patriot missiles various Army air-defense units had to fire in order to destroy 10 targets. Units with Category I personnel had to fire *20 missiles*. Those with Category II had to fire* 21 missiles*. Category IIIA: 22. Category IIIB: 23. Category IV: *24 missiles*. In other words, to perform the same task, Category IV units chewed up* 20 percent more hardware* than Category I units. For this particular task, since each Patriot missile costs about $2 million, they also* chewed up $8 million more of the Army's procurement budget.*​Just like that - $8 million in missiles consumed. This is what I'm talking about in terms of productivity and efficiency.


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## rightwinger (Oct 2, 2014)

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Not only are American College students lazy, but they take majors that nobody wants to hire.....French literature, basket weaving and "liberal arts"

Rush Limbaugh told me so


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## rightwinger (Oct 2, 2014)

Bush92 said:


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I hear the number is somewhere around "47%"


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## martybegan (Oct 2, 2014)

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Yes there is. If you cannot find them employment up to the level of their education, its a waste, they feel underutilized, underpaid, and you end up with conflict. 

If the education was only directed towards knowledge society needs it would be one thing, but we can only have so many marketing, womyn's studies, and communications majors.


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## martybegan (Oct 2, 2014)

LoneLaugher said:


> Every dollar spent on higher eduction returns at least 2 dollars in tax revenue. Often more. It is an investment.
> 
> The GI bill is proof that the idea works.



Link please?

and yes, that Barista at Starbucks with the art history degree that cost $150k to get really returns to the tax base......


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## Darkwind (Oct 2, 2014)

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Apply some critical thinking to that last statement and get back to Me when you come up with a better answer.


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## Desperado (Oct 2, 2014)

Because in Germany it is more important that students be educated than to fill the bank coffers of the interest of student loans.


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## Rikurzhen (Oct 2, 2014)

martybegan said:


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## flacaltenn (Oct 2, 2014)

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They sure as hell are not opting for the hard stuff. I can hardly find an American kid in a graduate engineering program.  I know this for a fact.  They all wanna be MBAs because you got to be the boss who doesnt have a clue as to how the product actually works...


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## Rikurzhen (Oct 2, 2014)

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Smart adults look at the data available to them. STEM talent is being imported and this cuts off career progression as well as inhibiting salary growth, meanwhile careers anchored in cultural literacy, such as marketing and PR are doing well.

I'm not disagreeing with you but I understand why this is happening. A typical career needs upwards progression - an engineer can start and then when he progresses and earns more he becomes too expensive to keep on and is let go when replaced by a Chinese engineer or an Iranian engineer hired for less.

Short term gain for the employer equals long term disruption in the labor pipeline.


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## Carla_Danger (Oct 2, 2014)

LoneLaugher said:


> Germany has returned to a policy of tuition free universities.
> 
> Germany Free college education for everyone Tuition unjust -- Society s Child -- Sott.net
> 
> ...


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## Carla_Danger (Oct 2, 2014)

Pop23 said:


> Yes
> 
> Let's teach our children that nothing is really worth working for.





Actually, it would level the playing field somewhat.  We need a healthy, educated, country to succeed. It would give youngsters a chance to start out without being in debt, and would help our economy.


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## flacaltenn (Oct 2, 2014)

Rikurzhen said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > They sure as hell are not opting for the hard stuff. I can hardly find an American kid in a graduate engineering program.  I know this for a fact.  They all wanna be MBAs because you got to be the boss who doesnt have a clue as to how the product actually works...
> ...



Depends on your conviction. If you hang out on the edge where business and academia meet -- you'll not have to worry about being replaced by "cheaper" labor. Used to be that in places like Silicon Valley, the start-up rate was high enough to where MOST engineers could eventually move up. Our rate of start-ups and REAL IPOs has tanked.

No one wants to take on the overhead and baggage required to build their dream products anymore. 

And companies dont' have the attention span that they used to. Where they knew what business they were in and fought to RETAIN expertise in science and engineering. If we don't revive the tech sector -- this country is gonna rapidly become IRRELEVENT in the Global marketplace.


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## Rikurzhen (Oct 2, 2014)

flacaltenn said:


> Rikurzhen said:
> 
> 
> > flacaltenn said:
> ...



I know from experience that this is a good place to be situated, but I also recognize that where I sit is very unique and my concern isn't for myself but for society because I saw programming and other talent have thier  career ladders being cut. High demand for top level people and then outsourcing to code monkeys which did a lot of damage to entry level and then intermediate level career positions on the ladder. How do you develop people ready for the high levels when you shut the valve on the pipeline?



> Used to be that in places like Silicon Valley, the start-up rate was high enough to where MOST engineers could eventually move up. Our rate of start-ups and REAL IPOs has tanked.



Why do you think all the tech players are so keen on H1-B visas and immigration reform? Cheaper to import talent than to develop talent. To lure Americans into the field the prospective employees need to see a future for advancement, instead they see mid-career talent having to train their imported replacements before being sent to pasture and they finding new work at age 50+ is near impossible and so the work that it taken up means a slide down the ladder instead of continuing upwards or laterally.



> No one wants to take on the overhead and baggage required to build their dream products anymore.



Exactly.



> And companies dont' have the attention span that they used to. Where they knew what business they were in and fought to RETAIN expertise in science and engineering. If we don't revive the tech sector -- this country is gonna rapidly become IRRELEVENT in the Global marketplace.



I think we're on the same page.


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## Bush92 (Oct 3, 2014)

rightwinger said:


> Samson said:
> 
> 
> > rightwinger said:
> ...


You mean like "communications" or "leisure activities" majors? Yeah, it's true. People have these useless majors.


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## Rikurzhen (Oct 3, 2014)

Carla_Danger said:


> LoneLaugher said:
> 
> 
> > Germany has returned to a policy of tuition free universities.
> ...



If brainless lefties love the Nordic countries so much then why don't they concoct some plans for ethnically cleansing the US so that we can duplicate the racial homogeneity of the Nordic countries?

We can kill two birds with that same stone, that smarmy silhouette man can show us how well the Nordic countries fare when we send them all of our black and Hispanic citizens.

And for the brainless lefties just stop comparing 98% white Finland with the multicultural United States and instead compare the multicultural US to other great multicultural nations, like the (former) Soviet Union and Yugoslavia and to historical predecessors like the Ottoman Empire and the Austro-Hungarian Empire.

Comparing the Nordic region of 26,000,000 citizens (the population of Texas) to the giant population of the US makes you guys look freaking clueless.

Look morons, you chose, you actively fought to bring about multiculturalism by lying to the public about your plans. You've succeeded in imposing this hell on us. By choosing multiculturalism you have forever closed the door on the prospect of transforming us into a high-sharing society like the Nordic countries. You made your choice, you inflicted this on us, now shut the fuck up about wanting what is impossible to deliver.


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## Samson (Oct 3, 2014)

Carla_Danger said:


> Pop23 said:
> 
> 
> > Yes
> ...



Just curious.

How economically successful has Finland become?


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## Samson (Oct 3, 2014)

flacaltenn said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> > Samson said:
> ...



On the other hand, I've met plenty of unemployed engineers. Oil prices drop, car manufacturer has a bad year, NASA cuts their budget, and these very highly trained specialists find themselves on the streets.


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## Skull Pilot (Oct 3, 2014)

LoneLaugher said:


> Germany has returned to a policy of tuition free universities.
> 
> Germany Free college education for everyone Tuition unjust -- Society s Child -- Sott.net
> 
> ...


You can already learn nearly everything taught in universities for free


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## Samson (Oct 3, 2014)

Skull Pilot said:


> LoneLaugher said:
> 
> 
> > Germany has returned to a policy of tuition free universities.
> ...



But you cannot prove it. Or better put, unless someone tests whether or not you know something, then you cannot prove it is something that has been learned.


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## Skull Pilot (Oct 3, 2014)

Samson said:


> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> > LoneLaugher said:
> ...


A degree is not proof either.

You have no idea if a person skated by being graded on a curve or if they actually learned the material.

People aren't allowed to flunk out anymore as long as they pay their tuition


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## Samson (Oct 3, 2014)

Skull Pilot said:


> Samson said:
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> > Skull Pilot said:
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Agreed. But the degree is better than nothing.

Disagree that people "aren't allowed to flunk out." The graduation rate for HS is about 80% max. The graduation rates for universities is often less.


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## Skull Pilot (Oct 3, 2014)

Samson said:


> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> > Samson said:
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Graduation rate and people who are told they can't come back because of poor grades are 2 completely different stats.

There will always be a lower graduation rate than enrollment rate.  Most if not all of that difference is due to the choice to discontinue school not that a school refused to continue enrollment because of poor performance.


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## Samson (Oct 3, 2014)

Skull Pilot said:


> Samson said:
> 
> 
> > Skull Pilot said:
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Yes there are people that leave school for reasons that have nothing to do with their grades, but that doesn't mean no one is "allowed to flunk out" or that the vast majority that do not graduate left because of extenuating circumstances having nothing to do with failing grades.

Many fail.


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## ClosedCaption (Oct 3, 2014)

Darkwind said:


> ClosedCaption said:
> 
> 
> > martybegan said:
> ...



Get back to me when you can address it directly


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## Unkotare (Oct 3, 2014)

LoneLaugher said:


> Germany has returned to a policy of tuition free universities.
> 
> Germany Free college education for everyone Tuition unjust -- Society s Child -- Sott.net
> 
> ...



Absolutely not.


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## Carla_Danger (Oct 3, 2014)

Samson said:


> Carla_Danger said:
> 
> 
> > Pop23 said:
> ...





Why don't you fucking read something?  Actually Finland is doing quite well.

How are we doing, is the better question.  Right now we rank somewhere are #35 in mathematics, but we're number 1 in incarceration.

Where's my flag?  I want to wave it.


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## ClosedCaption (Oct 3, 2014)

martybegan said:


> ClosedCaption said:
> 
> 
> > martybegan said:
> ...



Unlike the conflict now right?  I mean heres the two sides:

1. Take out student loans and everyone who wants a better education is crushed with debt but they are educated.  Those will be the job creators if they can get free from debt.
or
2. Students go for free, not crushed by loans and even if they dont find something in their field they still wont be ass raped by loans.  Additionally, those will be the future job creators



> If the education was only directed towards knowledge society needs it would be one thing, but we can only have so many marketing, womyn's studies, and communications majors.



I notice you keep skipping over all the other majors as if every major is a waste.  What we are talking about here is not WHAT IS A SMART MAJOR.  We're talking about the benefit of having a better educated public.

I swear this is a fucking silly ass topic.  "Whats so good about a better educated citizenry?"


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## Samson (Oct 3, 2014)

Carla_Danger said:


> Samson said:
> 
> 
> > Carla_Danger said:
> ...



Better get the Flag. Apparently waving it will be much more simple for you than answering a simple fucking question.

You're the one that's claimed that the superior education system of Finland has resulted in something that would "help our economy"....

But actually demonstrating that the Finnish economy has been "helped" is really, just to much to ask.

Put up or Shut up.


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## Carla_Danger (Oct 3, 2014)

Samson said:


> Carla_Danger said:
> 
> 
> > Samson said:
> ...





You're the one disputing it, you idiot.  You put up or shaddup. I've already done my homework.


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## Samson (Oct 3, 2014)

ClosedCaption said:


> martybegan said:
> 
> 
> > ClosedCaption said:
> ...



What's silly is committing resources to anything without knowing the benefits.

How much will it cost to offer free university "education" in the USA?

How much will this grow our standard of living?

Go ahead and demonstrate that we have answers to these questions based on any example, then we can have an intelligent discussion.

Until then you're right, "this is a fucking silly ass topic."


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## martybegan (Oct 3, 2014)

ClosedCaption said:


> martybegan said:
> 
> 
> > ClosedCaption said:
> ...



Its a waste of a person's early productive years to educate them for the sake of education only. It's a huge waste to spend tax money to do this. What you then get are over-privileged people who are working in "what they believe" in a job below their education.


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## Samson (Oct 3, 2014)

Carla_Danger said:


> Samson said:
> 
> 
> > Carla_Danger said:
> ...



You've probably forgotten the question:

*How economically successful has Finland become?
*
I've bolded and enlarged it hoping to help overcome whatever mental handicap you have.


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## Carla_Danger (Oct 3, 2014)

Samson said:


> Carla_Danger said:
> 
> 
> > Samson said:
> ...






And I've already told you to go read something.  It will do your fried brain some good.


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## ClosedCaption (Oct 3, 2014)

Samson said:


> ClosedCaption said:
> 
> 
> > martybegan said:
> ...



Its an investment and what we do know is that the current system is crushing people under massive debt.  You seriously couldnt argue that is a better system.



> How much will this grow our standard of living?


 1 leap and 1 bound



> Go ahead and demonstrate that we have answers to these questions based on any example, then we can have an intelligent discussion.
> 
> Until then you're right, "this is a fucking silly ass topic."



You think your ability to ask questions adds anything to the topic?  You can ask questions all day btu what you cant do is argue why the current system is working for us according to stats and facts.

When will it be?  Where would it be?  Whos going to go?  What are they going to take? blah blah blah


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## ClosedCaption (Oct 3, 2014)

martybegan said:


> ClosedCaption said:
> 
> 
> > martybegan said:
> ...



No what you get is people crushed under debt and you support it...but then when they go on welfare you throw your hands up screaming "whhhhhyyy?"

You cant be PRO saddling millions with debt starting out AND Anti-welfare.  We are going to pay one way or the other.


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## ClosedCaption (Oct 3, 2014)

How long will school be?  Will it improve grades?  Whats for lunch?

All important questions


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## Samson (Oct 3, 2014)

Carla_Danger said:


> Samson said:
> 
> 
> > Carla_Danger said:
> ...








"Go read something?"

That's your answer to:

*How economically successful has Finland become?
*
OK. I read something.

It said that Finland continues to be an economic basket-case, and is teetering on the edge of disaster.

So much for your idiotic claims.


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## martybegan (Oct 3, 2014)

ClosedCaption said:


> martybegan said:
> 
> 
> > ClosedCaption said:
> ...



So we saddle the country with debt instead of the people actually getting the education. GREAT FUCKING IDEA. 

And if you want to blame the cost of education on someone, blame the liberal academics that are making money off fools getting useless degrees. 

Oh wait, you can't do that because you are one of those useless asshats.


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## Samson (Oct 3, 2014)

ClosedCaption said:


> Samson said:
> 
> 
> > ClosedCaption said:
> ...



Thanks for the reply.

No I don't think the current system is very good. Nor do I believe offering unlimited access to a free university system is a workable solution.

I'm still waiting to receive any evidence that European States are Growing by a Leap, for ANY reason, but particularly because they offer free university education.

However, there will be an important caveat should the USA want to offer this: We will also need to adopt European National School Models. These allow for standardized testing in about the 8th grade. Those that pass, qualify for a pre-university course of study. Those that do not pass, are directed toward trade school. Thus, the candidates for a "Free University Education" are QUALIFIED.


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## Carla_Danger (Oct 3, 2014)

Samson said:


> Carla_Danger said:
> 
> 
> > Samson said:
> ...






I guess you can't read.  I'm not doing your homework for you, you lazy American.


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## ClosedCaption (Oct 3, 2014)

All you have to do is simply look where the US is compared to other nations in education and also the number of foreigners recruited to work in US companies because Americans dont have that level of education unless they are crushed like an ant under debt...which makes it that much harder to get ahead.


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## Carla_Danger (Oct 3, 2014)

ClosedCaption said:


> All you have to do is simply look where the US is compared to other nations in education and also the number of foreigners recruited to work in US companies because Americans dont have that level of education unless they are crushed like an ant under debt...which makes it that much harder to get ahead.





It's so simple.  Why don't they get it?


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## Samson (Oct 3, 2014)

Carla_Danger said:


> Samson said:
> 
> 
> > Carla_Danger said:
> ...








I read Finland is an economic disaster.

Perhaps during your 4 weeks of government mandated vacation next year you'll grow a brain.


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## Delta4Embassy (Oct 3, 2014)

LoneLaugher said:


> Germany has returned to a policy of tuition free universities.
> 
> Germany Free college education for everyone Tuition unjust -- Society s Child -- Sott.net
> 
> ...



Great idea in theory, but dunno about in practice. Any studies comparing quality of education between for-profit vs free?

Just because Liberty University is a university, doesn't mean you'll get an education there.


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## LoneLaugher (Oct 3, 2014)

Willful ignorance.


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## Samson (Oct 3, 2014)

ClosedCaption said:


> All you have to do is simply look where the US is compared to other nations in education and also the number of foreigners recruited to work in US companies because Americans dont have that level of education unless they are crushed like an ant under debt...which makes it that much harder to get ahead.




Americans are also not hand selected at the age of 14 to participate in a Pre University Education program that grooms them to enter the State University system.

Would you be OK with this?

If not, then your comparisons are "fucking silly ass."


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## Samson (Oct 3, 2014)

LoneLaugher said:


> Willful ignorance.




Thanks for the admission.

It will be the first step towards your recovery from Pitiful Stupidity.


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## ClosedCaption (Oct 3, 2014)

Samson said:


> ClosedCaption said:
> 
> 
> > All you have to do is simply look where the US is compared to other nations in education and also the number of foreigners recruited to work in US companies because Americans dont have that level of education unless they are crushed like an ant under debt...which makes it that much harder to get ahead.
> ...



Wasnt it you who said you would like to evaluate the process and see what works for America?  You act like we have to take everything they do no matter what.

Its the same reheated garbage from the ACA debate. We dont HAVE to do EVERYTHING they do and HOW they do it


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## psikeyhackr (Oct 3, 2014)

Simple, a National Recommended Reading List.

Don't expect it from professional educators though.  Talking about JOBS for decades but cannot suggest mandatory accounting.  Isn't MONEY the objective of a JOB.  So what do people do with MONEY after they get it?  Isn't that just as important as the JOBS.

Or is the purpose of education to produce a lot of SUCKERS who can be used?

The Accounting Game: Basic Accounting Fresh From the Lemonade Stand
http://www.exceltip.com/book-1570713960.html
Foolish Book Review The Accounting Game 

Radically Simple Accounting by Madeline Bailey
QC Computing. Making Your Business More Profitable


----------



## Darkwind (Oct 3, 2014)

ClosedCaption said:


> Darkwind said:
> 
> 
> > ClosedCaption said:
> ...


You must be Finnish, wanting others to do for you.

What does it mean when you are asked to apply critical thought to a statement?  Do you know?

Let Me help you out.

50 years ago, a high school diploma was all that was needed to get a good paying job, and people thought that if everyone had one, then society would be so much better off.

Except that when nearly everyone had one..........


Now, finish the thought if you can.


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## Carla_Danger (Oct 3, 2014)

Delta4Embassy said:


> LoneLaugher said:
> 
> 
> > Germany has returned to a policy of tuition free universities.
> ...





Um yeah, there are stats.  I think the (for profit) university of Phoenix's graduation rate is 22%.


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## Delta4Embassy (Oct 3, 2014)

Online schools aren't quite what I was thinking.


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## LoneLaugher (Oct 3, 2014)

Samson said:


> LoneLaugher said:
> 
> 
> > Willful ignorance.
> ...



I am guessing that you know how lame that is. To try and use another's comment like that is just tired USMB nutter shit. It is done so often here.....and is such a weak attempt to insult someone.....that you ought to know better. 

As you typed that, were you a little embarrassed? You must have been.


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## Samson (Oct 3, 2014)

ClosedCaption said:


> Samson said:
> 
> 
> > ClosedCaption said:
> ...



Ok I'll accept that.

I think Hawaii would be a useful place to experiment because they already have a State-Run school system. Let's have them create a test that divides students at age 14 into two groups. One group will go to University for Free. The other group will learn how to Harvest Pine Apples, or whatever the ignorant class does in Hawaii.

Um.......no affirmative action, of course, because they don't have this in Europe.

I hope a lot of Native Hawaiians Pass The Test, otherwise this little experiment will get much more interesting than we expected.


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## Esmeralda (Oct 3, 2014)

rightwinger said:


> LoneLaugher said:
> 
> 
> > Germany has returned to a policy of tuition free universities.
> ...



These folks who think free higher education is wrong are fools. All countries with free higher education have a better educated, more sane society.  Everyone should have the opportunity for higher education.


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## Skull Pilot (Oct 3, 2014)

ClosedCaption said:


> Samson said:
> 
> 
> > ClosedCaption said:
> ...


Anyone who wants to be better educated can do it for free or nearly so already.  There is no need to incur more public debt for that which is already free.


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## Samson (Oct 3, 2014)

r





LoneLaugher said:


> Samson said:
> 
> 
> > LoneLaugher said:
> ...



No, but your reply, filled with blithering stupidity confirming everyone's expectations is satisfactory.

Bravo, please continue to dance, monkey.


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## Samson (Oct 3, 2014)

Esmeralda said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> > LoneLaugher said:
> ...



You're supposed to be some sort of example.......


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## ClosedCaption (Oct 3, 2014)

Darkwind said:


> ClosedCaption said:
> 
> 
> > Darkwind said:
> ...




I'll finish it...

We give up and let the world get further ahead of us?
We tell the world we arent playing their "higher education" game?
If everyone is better educated then that would be bad?

I'm trying to find the downside...really


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## martybegan (Oct 3, 2014)

Esmeralda said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> > LoneLaugher said:
> ...



Education for its own sake is a waste of time for 90% of the population, because it removes them from the workforce at a time when they can be their most productive/energetic.


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## Samson (Oct 3, 2014)

Skull Pilot said:


> Anyone who wants to be better educated can do it for free or nearly so already.  There is no need to incur more public debt for that which is already free.



So, all these 17 and 18 year olds that are applying for colleges, should just "do it for free?"

Its astonishing that practically everyone in the entire world has not arrived at the same conclusion you have discovered.

Why do you suppose that is?


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## Samson (Oct 3, 2014)

ClosedCaption said:


> Darkwind said:
> 
> 
> > ClosedCaption said:
> ...



"Let the world get ahead of us?"

Has Finland put a Man on The Moon?

What Make Automobile does Finland produce?

How many Fins helped defend Bosnia from Serbian Genocidal Maniacs?

Shall I go on?


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## Darkwind (Oct 3, 2014)

ClosedCaption said:


> Darkwind said:
> 
> 
> > ClosedCaption said:
> ...


So you cannot follow a conversation either.

Well, good luck to you.


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## ClosedCaption (Oct 3, 2014)

Samson said:


> ClosedCaption said:
> 
> 
> > Darkwind said:
> ...



I said education...look at their population then look at ours.  This false comparison you just made is like asking you "How many blue crosses does the US have on their flag? None!  Shall I go on"


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## Darkwind (Oct 3, 2014)

It is amazing to Me the lack of thought people put into blanket statements like, “There is no downside to more education."  Particularly when their idea of an ‘education’ is nothing more than a diploma.

What is the value of a high school diploma today?  The answer is readily apparent in today’s job market.  There is a little value to a high school diploma.  That is because they are so common as to be worthless.

When people talk about other nations enacting programs to educate everyone, and then want to apply it to this nation, they really are doing the entire nation, and the world, a disservice.

Not everyone is cut out for higher education.  Not everyone wants a higher education.

In America, we treat our children’s education programs in exactly the wrong way.  We try to pigeon-hole every child into a path that some moron (read that to mean educator) thinks is best for them all.

What we need is an aptitude test for our children.  We need to do that at a very early age.  We need to find those things that they have a singular intense focus on, and cultivate that budding passion.

Some children will grow up with an intense desire to work with their hands.  They may love the entire concept of aircraft engines and flight, and they WANT to be involved in that.  Or some kids will want to practice auto engine repair, or maybe even auto design.

Some may have a driving need to figure out how the Universe works.

Some may want to understand how things work, like bridges, or roads, or how ships can move through ocean waves that would normally sink a lesser vessel.

Some may want to know what human kind has done in the past and want to know how that applies to why we behave the way we do today.

In other words, we need to means test for our children for their skill levels and passion, and use the results of that test to determine what the best course is for them.

Not everyone will need to have a higher education to achieve their passion.

Right now, we can barely get our kids to communicate using written language, or to do more than rudimentary mathematics, and the extent of their knowledge of science is grounded in biology of the opposite sex, and precious little else.

How about a smarter education system, and a rudimentary education for all, just as a start?


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## martybegan (Oct 3, 2014)

One thing that everyone forgets is that not everyone can get into universities in Europe. 



> In order to enter university, students are, as a rule, required to have passed the _Abitur_ examination; since 2009, however, those with a _Meisterbrief_ (master craftsman's diploma) have also been able to apply.[5][6] Those wishing to attend a "university of applied sciences" must, as a rule, have _Abitur_, _Fachhochschulreife_, or a _Meisterbrief_. Lacking those qualifications, pupils are eligible to enter a university or university of applied sciences if they can present additional proof that they will be able to keep up with their fellow students through a _Begabtenprüfung_ or _Hochbegabtenstudium_ (which is a test confirming excellence and above average intellectual ability).


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## LoneLaugher (Oct 3, 2014)

Samson said:


> r
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Oh.....it's that other tired USMB nutter tactic.  

Continue addressing someone in post after post.....and then exclaim that you are their puppet master because they continue to slam your stupidity in your face.


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## Samson (Oct 3, 2014)

LoneLaugher said:


> Samson said:
> 
> 
> > r
> ...



Good to see you're still dancing






Keep entertaining me with your stupidity!


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## Samson (Oct 3, 2014)

ClosedCaption said:


> Samson said:
> 
> 
> > ClosedCaption said:
> ...



You said: "We give up and let the world get further ahead of us?"

Now you say you only meant "further ahead of us" in education.

Yet their "superior" education only allows them to be "superior" in........education?

Silly me, I thought there was actually a PURPOSE for this effort, and a RESULT that would have NATIONAL BENEFITS.


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## Unkotare (Oct 3, 2014)

Skull Pilot said:


> LoneLaugher said:
> 
> 
> > Germany has returned to a policy of tuition free universities.
> ...



No you can't. Don't start this stupid shit again.


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## ClosedCaption (Oct 3, 2014)

Samson said:


> ClosedCaption said:
> 
> 
> > Samson said:
> ...



Excuse me but I missed the part where a more educated public is a bad thing.  Could you say a few words on that?


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## Unkotare (Oct 3, 2014)

'Free' university for all would be a disastrous mistake for the US.


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## LoneLaugher (Oct 3, 2014)

ClosedCaption said:


> Samson said:
> 
> 
> > ClosedCaption said:
> ...




Someone did say that it would be bad because you wouldn't have anyone left to do the shit jobs if everyone got an education and went all "elitist" and shit.


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## LoneLaugher (Oct 3, 2014)

Unkotare said:


> 'Free' university for all would be a disastrous mistake for the US.



We'll just read your mind. No need to express why. 

I understand ........it's probably better for you that way.


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## martybegan (Oct 3, 2014)

LoneLaugher said:


> ClosedCaption said:
> 
> 
> > Samson said:
> ...



They would also waste a productive portion of the lives in pursuing a degree that does them no go in the job market.

Did you also ignore the fact that Germany has a strong apprentice system, and it is not assumed that everyone can to to College? That you have to pass a test to get INTO any univeristy?


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## Unkotare (Oct 3, 2014)

It would be a bad idea because what has made American universities by far the best in the world is COMPETITION. One of the reasons why public k-12 education in America is NOT by far the best in the world is a lack of same. 

That being said, there are so many options today that no one who really wants a college education need go without.


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## ClosedCaption (Oct 3, 2014)

LoneLaugher said:


> ClosedCaption said:
> 
> 
> > Samson said:
> ...



But of course thats assuming that everyone in America decides to all go to school, all take tech jobs, all graduate and all find jobs in that field and all stay there for life


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## LoneLaugher (Oct 3, 2014)

ClosedCaption said:


> LoneLaugher said:
> 
> 
> > ClosedCaption said:
> ...



Well.....that would happen.....riiiiiiiigggghhhhhttttt?


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## LoneLaugher (Oct 3, 2014)

Unkotare said:


> It would be a bad idea because what has made American universities by far the best in the world is COMPETITION. One of the reasons why public k-12 education in America is NOT by far the best in the world is a lack of same.
> 
> That being said, there are so many options today that no one who really wants a college education need go without.



Making public Universties free would not reduce competition.


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## flacaltenn (Oct 3, 2014)

Samson said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > They sure as hell are not opting for the hard stuff. I can hardly find an American kid in a graduate engineering program.  I know this for a fact.  They all wanna be MBAs because you got to be the boss who doesnt have a clue as to how the product actually works...
> ...



Yep.. The message hasn't gone out. The nature of a job has changed. Even the Chinese recognize that "cheap labor" is a passing fad and they are investing heavily in 21st century automation. And it's changed for engineers and scientists.. The availability of technical tools has changed the playing field for innovation.. 

Starting Yesterday -- technical innovation is now available to individuals. Don't need a huge corporate structure. You can download FREE compilers and be developing mobile platform apps in a week. I have accumulated all of the tools and capabilities that most of my former full time employers could only dream about. 

Consumer market for technology has shrunk to 4 or 5 key products. And all of our domestic supply chain for building those phones, tablets and audio gear is WAAAY gone..  It's NOT coming back, because there are no volume applications outside of those key 5 items. 

You all can fight about the politics and stomp your feet, but the INDIVIDUAL is now "liberated" to be a producer of intellectual property.
And the way folks organize to build "products" is gonna look different.

Which leaves you with a mess of problems about how to restructure the training and education part. Yeah -- I know, not everyone is gonna be an entrepreneur. But they COULD BE content/media/Intel.Prop creators. 

SMALL companies can cover more NICHE markets. Like in aids for the disabled, or customized items, or music that only 30,000 people want to hear. 

IT WILL BE A DISASTER OF BIBLICAL PROPORTIONS -- if folks continue to depend on unskilled jobs that are going to largely disappear, OR expect GIANT companies to be hiring the bulk tech professionals.

Gotta get them THRU HIGH SCHOOL first. Then argue about college. 
I think the future of college is a TWO YEAR certification that is tailored to sparking creativity and disciplined life-long learning. Was a time when learning about Chaucer was only gonna happen as a $50K/year undergrad. That's not the case today. 

Create or starve.. Pretty much.. It's more up to individuals NOW than ever since agrarian times..


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## Unkotare (Oct 3, 2014)

LoneLaugher said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> > It would be a bad idea because what has made American universities by far the best in the world is COMPETITION. One of the reasons why public k-12 education in America is NOT by far the best in the world is a lack of same.
> ...




Of course it would. Don't be ridiculous.


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## flacaltenn (Oct 3, 2014)

LoneLaugher said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> > It would be a bad idea because what has made American universities by far the best in the world is COMPETITION. One of the reasons why public k-12 education in America is NOT by far the best in the world is a lack of same.
> ...



That's a silly notion.. Shows you haven't thought this thru.. 
How would MIT get reimbursed versus Pocoima Univ? You think there a fair way for the govt to PAY those 2 institutions?  All you see is the big-assed FREE sign and not the inner workings. Just like in the FREE healthcare debate. When the universities are getting PAID almost identically in reimbursements --- what HAPPENS TO THE uniqueness of their staff and quality?? 

And who gets to tell my kid that they CAN'T go to Emory Univ or Vanderbilt?


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## ClosedCaption (Oct 3, 2014)

Why is competition more of an important topic than educating the next generation of leaders?


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## Unkotare (Oct 3, 2014)

flacaltenn said:


> And who gets to tell my kid that they CAN'T go to Emory Univ or Vanderbilt?



The same seat-filling cheap suit who will be telling you that you can't get certain medical treatments if you are over a certain age.


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## Samson (Oct 3, 2014)

flacaltenn said:


> Samson said:
> 
> 
> > flacaltenn said:
> ...



Excellent. Particularly agree with the ongoing weakness of expectations that Giant Companies will hire professionals. They are DINOSAURS.


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## Samson (Oct 3, 2014)

ClosedCaption said:


> Samson said:
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> 
> > ClosedCaption said:
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Sure.

Being "more educated" doesn't mean shit if you starve to death.

I tried to limit my response to as few words as possible.


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## Skull Pilot (Oct 3, 2014)

Unkotare said:


> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> > LoneLaugher said:
> ...


The only stupid shit in this thread is you.

Feel free to put me on ignore Ucunthair lord knows I don't want to read your shit anymore


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## ClosedCaption (Oct 3, 2014)

Samson said:


> ClosedCaption said:
> 
> 
> > Samson said:
> ...



Yeah, starving to death is generally agreed upon as not favorable.  But can you tell us why a more educated public is a bad thing?


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## Skull Pilot (Oct 3, 2014)

Samson said:


> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> > Anyone who wants to be better educated can do it for free or nearly so already.  There is no need to incur more public debt for that which is already free.
> ...


Because they are all sheep.

It's no different from the grow up get married have kids shit.

People do not think about it they just do it and anyone who doesn't is thought of as strange.

Face it folks most of the shit these 18 year olds take in college is just as easily learned in independent study.

Anyone can design their own liberal arts curriculum, even math through calculus can be done in a self study environment.

It's a shame that people listen to you folks who tell them they can't do shit rather than those who tell them they can.

What little faith you all have in people.


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## Unkotare (Oct 3, 2014)

Skull Pilot said:


> I don't want to read your shit anymore




Like you just did, genius?


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## Skull Pilot (Oct 3, 2014)

Unkotare said:


> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> > I don't want to read your shit anymore
> ...


I don't need to put you on ignore I've been ignoring your inane bullshit for months now it's you who can't seem to ignore me why is that Ucunthair?


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## Unkotare (Oct 3, 2014)

Skull Pilot said:


> Face it folks most of the shit these 18 year olds take in college is just as easily learned in independent study.
> 
> .




Face it, your fucked-up notions have no bearing on reality.


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## Unkotare (Oct 3, 2014)

Skull Pilot said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> > Skull Pilot said:
> ...




And there you go reading another one. You really suck at this, Bunker-boy.


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## flacaltenn (Oct 3, 2014)

Darkwind said:


> It is amazing to Me the lack of thought people put into blanket statements like, “There is no downside to more education."  Particularly when their idea of an ‘education’ is nothing more than a diploma.
> 
> What is the value of a high school diploma today?  The answer is readily apparent in today’s job market.  There is a little value to a high school diploma.  That is because they are so common as to be worthless.
> 
> ...



Bad reasoning on a HS diploma.. Try raising a family WITHOUT one. Don't care how common they are. I care that EVERYONE GETS ONE.

But I DO agree with most of the rest of your post..  Except instead of.. 


> Not everyone is cut out for higher education.  Not everyone wants a higher education.



I would change that to  -- Not everyone is cut out for a 4 yr degree or Graduate work. BUT --- the changes in the definition of a job means that EVERYONE MUST have higher education after High School.. 

21st century jobs require flexibility and initiative. And everyone needs to plan on CONTINUING education. It's gonna hurt, but if we DON'T raise minimum standards for workers --- it's gonna get ugly. Rather than arguing about FREE college -- we should be talking about the infrastructure to acquire and hone skills piecemeal for a lifetime..


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## dblack (Oct 3, 2014)

LoneLaugher said:


> Germany has returned to a policy of tuition free universities.
> 
> Germany Free college education for everyone Tuition unjust -- Society s Child -- Sott.net
> 
> ...



Also, this will give government greater control over education, ensuring social control and a compliant populace. Double Bonus.

They should supply us all with food too - for the same reasons.


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## Samson (Oct 3, 2014)

ClosedCaption said:


> Samson said:
> 
> 
> > ClosedCaption said:
> ...



More Educated Public is not a bad thing.

A Less Productive Public is a bad thing.

Wasting Resources is a bad thing.

Segregating a society as heterogeneous as the USA is a bad thing.

Creating one thing that is good is not worth creating three or more things that are bad.


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## flacaltenn (Oct 3, 2014)

ClosedCaption said:


> Samson said:
> 
> 
> > ClosedCaption said:
> ...



Simply a matter of timing and priorities.. You teach kids to self-motivate their education in High School, then get them a skill set to SURVIVE and THRIVE, and once they get going --- they have an ENTIRE LIFETIME to "get educated"... They just have to set that as a priority.. There is no FOUR YEAR RUSH to greatness..


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## Samson (Oct 3, 2014)

Skull Pilot said:


> Samson said:
> 
> 
> > Skull Pilot said:
> ...



Everyone is Sheep? Really? EVERYONE???

So you are the example of someone who put this resume together:

Name: Skull Pilot
Education: Self Taught Liberal Arts
Objective: To Contribute to the growth and profitability of a Multinational Corporation
Experience: USMB Contributing Member​


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## flacaltenn (Oct 3, 2014)

ClosedCaption said:


> Why is competition more of an important topic than educating the next generation of leaders?



Because LEADERS don't come out of STANDARDIZED, HOMOGENIZED, institutions run by a Fed bureaucracy.. 

Without competition, costs go up, quality is cut off at the knees. 
That's why...


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## flacaltenn (Oct 3, 2014)

BTW: The proposal is to hand over Higher Education to the SAME group of bureaucrats and special interests and fans of HUGE govt that think it's just peachy to have 65% HS graduation rate and LOWER standardized expectations.. Think everyone is getting EQUALLY brilliant under those conditions???

Except in THIS CENTURY --- it's literally a matter of life and death to do it RIGHT and actually get to every student with the proper attitude and message. This aint no thought experiment anymore.. We are on the ledge of irrelevancy in the World trade scheme of things..


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## ClosedCaption (Oct 3, 2014)

flacaltenn said:


> ClosedCaption said:
> 
> 
> > Why is competition more of an important topic than educating the next generation of leaders?
> ...



Leaders come from everywhere.  If that was the case about quality we'd be ahead of everyone else but we arent, which blows a hole in that whole theory


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## flacaltenn (Oct 3, 2014)

ClosedCaption said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > ClosedCaption said:
> ...



REALLY MAN? Not that being a President requires any skills, but when's the last one of those that graduated from a STATE run University? 

See -- now they don't REQUIRE any special skills OTHER than leadership and executive ability. A law degree or nuclear physics degree usually DOOMS them to Prez irrelevance. 

But now Wozniak and Jobs and Gates needed......  OH WAIT -- they didn't did they???


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## Rikurzhen (Oct 3, 2014)

Carla_Danger said:


> Samson said:
> 
> 
> > Carla_Danger said:
> ...



Those are not governance problems, they're racial problems:


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## initforme (Oct 3, 2014)

So if you don't get a college education how does one start off at a high wage?   All I hear is that people need to get trained in skills that make them attractive to employers.   Well that is basically more education.  Working your tail off and barely getting by is no way to live.   Raising the minimum wage isn't the answer I do agree.   But starting off at a low wage and working your butt off to scrape by is avoidable and something one should aspire to.   That requires training whether it be tech school or college.   Simply entering the work force at 18 and making lower wages is something to avoid... at all costs.


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## dblack (Oct 3, 2014)

initforme said:


> So if you don't get a college education how does one start off at a high wage?



I don't know. Why does this matter?


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## flacaltenn (Oct 3, 2014)

initforme said:


> So if you don't get a college education how does one start off at a high wage?   All I hear is that people need to get trained in skills that make them attractive to employers.   Well that is basically more education.  Working your tail off and barely getting by is no way to live.   Raising the minimum wage isn't the answer I do agree.   But starting off at a low wage and working your butt off to scrape by is avoidable and something one should aspire to.   That requires training whether it be tech school or college.   Simply entering the work force at 18 and making lower wages is something to avoid... at all costs.



The answer has always been the same. Make yourself VALUABLE to your employer. Be the best.

But TODAY -- for your own good -- you should never work a dead end low skills job UNLESS --- you are currently enrolled SOMEWHERE to increase your skills or add to the toolbox...

The list of WELL paying in demand jobs that you can get with a 2yr Community College degree or 1 yr trade diploma is pretty good.. And KEEP GOING after that.

Education never ends.. Especially for the future of "jobs"..


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## initforme (Oct 3, 2014)

"I don't know. Why does it matter "

Because we don't need anyone working at low wage jobs.   A low wage job does society no good and it doesn't help the economy.  Top that off with unless one lives at home with their parents a low paying job cannot provide a living for a person.  The goal would be to eliminate all those jobs so everyone has a high paying job.  Of course that cannot happen but if employers have a hard time finding people to work their low wage jobs that would be a good thing.


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## flacaltenn (Oct 3, 2014)

initforme said:


> "I don't know. Why does it matter "
> 
> Because we don't need anyone working at low wage jobs.   A low wage job does society no good and it doesn't help the economy.  Top that off with unless one lives at home with their parents a low paying job cannot provide a living for a person.  The goal would be to eliminate all those jobs so everyone has a high paying job.  Of course that cannot happen but if employers have a hard time finding people to work their low wage jobs that would be a good thing.



Employers will figure out how to staff low paying jobs..  They either automate or offer some incentive if labor is tight.  They might even make more advancement options with on the job training.  Even a highly automated factory uses some low skill labor and offers advancement for motivated employees


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## initforme (Oct 3, 2014)

Do we really want people stuck working in factories?  We should be aspiring people to avoid them at all costs.  They tend to be low paying more blue collar job which again could be slowly phased out and those offering those jobs well if they are having trouble finding workers that would be a huge improvement.


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## Samson (Oct 3, 2014)

initforme said:


> Do we really want people stuck working in factories?  We should be aspiring people to avoid them at all costs.  They tend to be low paying more blue collar job which again could be slowly phased out and those offering those jobs well if they are having trouble finding workers that would be a huge improvement.



Did you graduate from High School English?


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## Politico (Oct 4, 2014)

norwegen said:


> Students planning their lives without investing in them.
> 
> Yea, that's educational.


Exactly. If you go to college you should pay for it.


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## Skull Pilot (Oct 4, 2014)

Samson said:


> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> > Samson said:
> ...


Not too many people with a bullshit liberal arts degree are doing much besides making coffee or waiting tables.

And I guess if your only goal in life is to work for someone else you have to play the game and waste tens of thousands of dollars to get a diploma.

But really if learning the material is your only goal then you can do it for free if you have the discipline.

You are all working on the assumption that one learns to get a job for someone else.  Education to me is simply the acquisition of knowledge not the pursuit of a job.

If a job is what you want then in reality you are far better off learning  a trade or sticking to technical degrees like engineering.


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## Samson (Oct 4, 2014)

Skull Pilot said:


> Samson said:
> 
> 
> > Skull Pilot said:
> ...



I though only sheep got degrees?

I agree with in principle with what you're saying. But I do not think it  works for everyone. I also agree that many that seek to have a degree really shouldn't be wasting their time, but do so in many cases because the money is available from government loans.

Free universities, done The American Way, that is to say, open to All, would only exacerbate the problem of a lot of people who wish to be More Educated, but really either cannot be More Educated or who could be just as or more productive without it..


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## dblack (Oct 4, 2014)

initforme said:


> "I don't know. Why does it matter "
> 
> Because we don't need anyone working at low wage jobs.   A low wage job does society no good and it doesn't help the economy.  Top that off with unless one lives at home with their parents a low paying job cannot provide a living for a person.  The goal would be to eliminate all those jobs so everyone has a high paying job.  Of course that cannot happen but if employers have a hard time finding people to work their low wage jobs that would be a good thing.



Huh... I don't even know how to respond to that. Every single thing you say here is wrong.


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## initforme (Oct 4, 2014)

Tell me why low wage jobs are important.  Why would any adult apply for one?  Get trained and further educated so you don't have to work for low wages.   Would it not be good to see employers having difficulty filling those positions?


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## dblack (Oct 4, 2014)

initforme said:


> Tell me why low wage jobs are important.  Why would any adult apply for one?  Get trained and further educated so you don't have to work for low wages.   Would it not be good to see employers having difficulty filling those positions?



Low wage jobs are important because high wage jobs are important. Do you think everyone should be paid the same?


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## Unkotare (Oct 4, 2014)

initforme said:


> Tell me why low wage jobs are important.  Why would any adult apply for one?  Get trained and further educated so you don't have to work for low wages.   Would it not be good to see employers having difficulty filling those positions?




Wtf? How old are you?


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## initforme (Oct 4, 2014)

Of course I don't think everyone should be paid the same.   But the sign a a healthy economy is not how many lower wage jobs there are.  Those jobs don't need to be filled by adults.  And they won't be if more people are educated.   Do you think someone should be doing those jobs besides kids who are there for a short time?  I don't consider a job that pays minimum wage a true job.   Surely one cannot live on it.  More people educated means less people working for low wage jobs which equals more people off the gov't dole.  A more educated society means less blue collar workers and more white collar workers making more money.


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## dblack (Oct 4, 2014)

initforme said:


> Of course I don't think everyone should be paid the same.   But the sign a a healthy economy is not how many lower wage jobs there are.  Those jobs don't need to be filled by adults.  And they won't be if more people are educated.   Do you think someone should be doing those jobs besides kids who are there for a short time?  I don't consider a job that pays minimum wage a true job.   Surely one cannot live on it.  More people educated means less people working for low wage jobs which equals more people off the gov't dole.  A more educated society means less blue collar workers and more white collar workers making more money.



I'm not sure you've really thought through the things you're saying here. But I can't slam you for it, because these are the kinds of simplistic ideas politicians try to sell to voters, and our news outlets dutifully regurgitate. But they really don't make any sense.


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## Samson (Oct 4, 2014)

dblack said:


> initforme said:
> 
> 
> > Tell me why low wage jobs are important.  Why would any adult apply for one?  Get trained and further educated so you don't have to work for low wages.   Would it not be good to see employers having difficulty filling those positions?
> ...




Do either of you recall the topic of the thread?

Go back and read the OP.


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## Conservative65 (Oct 30, 2014)

LoneLaugher said:


> Germany has returned to a policy of tuition free universities.
> 
> Germany Free college education for everyone Tuition unjust -- Society s Child -- Sott.net
> 
> ...



When are you morons going to learn there is no such thing?  Because the cost isn't placed directly on the one wanting the education doesn't mean there isn't a cost associated with it.  The costs are placed on those other than the one in school.


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## DGS49 (Oct 30, 2014)

This whole side discussion is off topic, but...

There is some really stupid shit being printed on this thread.

WAGES ARE NOT DETERMINED BY HOW MUCH THE EMPLOYEE NEEDS OR WANTS!

Jesus, how stupid can you be?

Human effort is a commodity, just like the raw materials that go into a finished product.  The employer will purchase that commodity at the lowest possible cost.  He would be stupid to do otherwise, just as he would be stupid to buy his lumber at a yard that charges $10/ft when he could buy it someplace else for $8/ft.

If he has a need for work that requires no special knowledge or skill but merely a willingness to do it, he will offer a low wage.  Anyone looking for work can either consider that job or not.  It's their own choice.  If no one is willing to do the work at that wage, then the employer will be forced to raise the wage until she can find the people she needs to get the job done.  The fact that said employee cannot live on the wage is irrelevant to the employer, except to the extent that that factor reduces the pool of potential employees.

At minimum wage, the pool of willing employees may be limited to school kids, people looking for a SECOND INCOME for their household, or adults who have no other options, and will only last there until they find something better.  Again, these are factors that the employer must consider.

If an employee is working there for minimum wage and later (1) believes they are worth more, or (2) finds that she can no longer meet her needs at minimum wage, then that employee must either find another job or convince the employer that she is worth more than minimum wage.

In what bizzarro world would the employer be obliged to increase the employee's compensation under those circumstances?

At another end of the spectrum, you can have someone with the greatest credentials in the world who, for one reason or another, cannot find a job that pays a wage commensurate with those credentials.  Tough shit.  This is not the Government's or the taxpayers' problem.

I worked for the Federal Government alongside a woman with a Masters Degree from Brown.  GS-5.  It was the best she could find.  Maybe in D.C. she could have found a better job, or in Boston, but this was the best she could do.

I personally worked several jobs for minimum wage.  Short order cook, security guard, janitor.  When I needed more money I worked overtime, got a second job, and/or looked for something better.  Never did I feel myself wronged or abused.  The work was offered at MW and I took it.  The employers knew that as soon as I could find something better I'd be gone.  They also knew that replacing me would be no problem.

An inflated minimum wage, such as the one they are pretending to offer in Seattle, will have the exact same result as raising the price of any commodity to more than its real economic value:  Employers will (a) use less of it, (b) find substitutes for it, and (c) go to the "black market" to avoid the mandatory wage (hiring people "under the table").  A few people will get a nice raise, but even more of them will either lose their jobs due to layoffs, or have their hours cut, or be replaced by people with better capabilities.

The law of unintended consequences.  You can't get around it.


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## peach174 (Oct 30, 2014)

LoneLaugher said:


> Germany has returned to a policy of tuition free universities.
> 
> Germany Free college education for everyone Tuition unjust -- Society s Child -- Sott.net
> 
> ...



They can afford to do it because Germany has about 2 million students in college.
Germany also takes over 50% of the workers pay.
America has around 18 to 20 million students.
Germany's cost per student it around 9,284.73
America's cost  per student is about 12,550.24
It is way to expensive for us to do the same.


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## dblack (Oct 30, 2014)

Samson said:


> dblack said:
> 
> 
> > initforme said:
> ...



Go back and read my response to initforme's original tangent.


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## CrusaderFrank (Oct 30, 2014)

LoneLaugher said:


> Germany has returned to a policy of tuition free universities.
> 
> Germany Free college education for everyone Tuition unjust -- Society s Child -- Sott.net
> 
> ...



Yeah! Fuck doing anything based on merit!


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## Unkotare (Oct 31, 2014)

There is a reason why the US has the best universities in the world and Germany does not.


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## initforme (Oct 31, 2014)

If you pay me a low wage, do you still expect me to be really productive?  Answer of course is no.  Its more of a show up and do the minimum.   If you pretend to pay me, I pretend to work.  If you want good productivity, then you had better pay me more.   That's called capitalism.


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## Unkotare (Oct 31, 2014)

initforme said:


> If you pay me a low wage, do you still expect me to be really productive?  Answer of course is no.  Its more of a show up and do the minimum.   If you pretend to pay me, I pretend to work.  If you want good productivity, then you had better pay me more.   That's called capitalism.




I sure as hell wouldn't employ a slack-ass like you with no pride or work ethic.


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## initforme (Oct 31, 2014)

I surely wouldn't work for you for a low wage. Touche


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## Unkotare (Oct 31, 2014)

initforme said:


> I surely wouldn't work for you for a low wage. Touche [sic]




I wouldn't employ a spineless, slacker like you at any wage, loser.


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## initforme (Oct 31, 2014)

I'd never apply to work for you...i'd be overqualified


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## Unkotare (Oct 31, 2014)

initforme said:


> I'd never apply to work for you...i'd [sic] be overqualified [sic]




I'm sure that's what you tell yourself all the time; you lazy, good-for-nothing slacker.


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