# If God Is...?



## AVG-JOE (Aug 8, 2012)

If God is, doesn't it make sense that She's WAY bigger than *all* of the Ancient Stories put together, let alone any one of them?  

Google Search: Books considered 'Holy'



Is your preferred Ancient Story really the LAST word on God?  Really?


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## Swagger (Aug 8, 2012)

My preferred 'story' concerning religion is actually an account of a real person from Alexandria in the 5th century. Hypatia, a woman, has often been credited with being the first mathmatician who hypothesised and sought to prove that the earth is a sphere, as opposed to being flat. But her teaching and theories offended the rising dominance of Christainity under Constantine. She was murdered and her school was trashed after refusing to capitulate to the bishop of Alexandria's will. These were the events that precipitated the burning of the Library of Alexandria, the single largest source of knowledge in the known world at the time.


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## LoneLaugher (Aug 8, 2012)

Religion is a business model.


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## AVG-JOE (Aug 8, 2012)

LoneLaugher said:


> Religion is a business model.



But faith is not... go figure.


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## LoneLaugher (Aug 8, 2012)

Faith is something than can be and is manipulated. I prefer reason.


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## Avatar4321 (Aug 8, 2012)

My faith believes that God has yet to reveal many things about Himself and the universe. So no it's not the last word on God. Really, it's only the first.


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## Steelplate (Aug 8, 2012)

I guess what gets to me is the notion that God and science can't coexist. Between the naivety of the Fundamentalists that refuse scientific evidence to the folks that can reason the complexities of the Universe, but still think it's all a random coincidence.

One side as bad as the other.


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## LoneLaugher (Aug 8, 2012)

No. There is no proof of any god. Seeing is believing.


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## Not2BSubjugated (Aug 8, 2012)

Gotta agree with LoneLaugher on this one.  I definitely prefer reason to faith.

I have faith in some things, but all of my faith is reached via observation and calculation.  For instance, without knowing what she's thinking, if a girl reacts in a certain way to my advances, I have faith that I can scoop her out of the club.  If I give a crackhead a ride to his dealer's house and I stop and get out at a 7-11 without taking the loose change out of my ashtray, I have faith that I'm probably coming up short on loose change.  I honestly don't think I'm capable of having 100 percent blind faith in anything, though it's certainly something I tried to reach for a number of years.

Ultimately, though, this issue is one on which I see eye to eye with Ayn Rand:  if you take what -anyone- else says as gospel, you're willfully forfeiting your position as the final arbiter of your own reality.  Anyone who removes their own conscience from that final arbiter position doesn't deserve the sentience they were lucky/blessed enough to be born with.


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## uscitizen (Aug 8, 2012)

If god is....


Now that is the real question.

all the other questions about god are irrelevant till that one is answered.


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## Avatar4321 (Aug 8, 2012)

LoneLaugher said:


> No. There is no proof of any god. Seeing is believing.



Believing is seeing. When you pierce the viel of unbelief, things become much more obvious.

And there are plenty of evidences for God. If you choose not to believe them, that's your perogative, but there is evidence.

The scriptures are evidence. The natural world around us is evidence. The planets of the solar system and their orbits are evidence.

The strongest evidence I have experienced is my own witness from the Holy Spirit. I can't explain away that or deny it. Granted, you dont have to believe my experience, it's mine, but I can't avoid believing it because I know it happened.

The only way to truly know God is to have your own personal experiences with Him. The scriptures teach us how that occurs.


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## Avatar4321 (Aug 8, 2012)

Not2BSubjugated said:


> Gotta agree with LoneLaugher on this one.  I definitely prefer reason to faith.
> 
> I have faith in some things, but all of my faith is reached via observation and calculation.  For instance, without knowing what she's thinking, if a girl reacts in a certain way to my advances, I have faith that I can scoop her out of the club.  If I give a crackhead a ride to his dealer's house and I stop and get out at a 7-11 without taking the loose change out of my ashtray, I have faith that I'm probably coming up short on loose change.  I honestly don't think I'm capable of having 100 percent blind faith in anything, though it's certainly something I tried to reach for a number of years.
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> Ultimately, though, this issue is one on which I see eye to eye with Ayn Rand:  if you take what -anyone- else says as gospel, you're willfully forfeiting your position as the final arbiter of your own reality.  Anyone who removes their own conscience from that final arbiter position doesn't deserve the sentience they were lucky/blessed enough to be born with.



I certainly understand your position. Personally, I dont see that we are ever asked to take blind faith. In fact, i see faith in Christ as very illuminating.


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## Avatar4321 (Aug 8, 2012)

uscitizen said:


> If god is....
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> Now that is the real question.
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I think God answered that when He said "I AM"

and it is the ultimate question. One of Supreme importance. Because if He is there, and I can testify that He is, then the course of our lives can dstrastically change compared what they could be if He isnt.


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## uscitizen (Aug 8, 2012)

Avatar4321 said:


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Umm some human wrote that down.
From the same group of humans that claim to be the chosen of god, etc.

Your proof of god's existence seems to all revolve around one manuscript that humans wrote down.


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## Intense (Aug 8, 2012)

AVG-JOE said:


> If God is, doesn't it make sense that She's WAY bigger than *all* of the Ancient Stories put together, let alone any one of them?
> 
> Google Search: Books considered 'Holy'
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> ...



Is you Faith, or lack of it based on Stories , or Life Experience? Do you feed on milk or meat?


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## there4eyeM (Aug 8, 2012)

"Believing is seeing. When you pierce the viel of unbelief, things become much more obvious."

Sounds like LSD, but it's LDS.


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## Intense (Aug 8, 2012)

uscitizen said:


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Try applying Conscience..... We'll leave the light on for you.


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## Intense (Aug 8, 2012)

there4eyeM said:


> "Believing is seeing. When you pierce the viel of unbelief, things become much more obvious."
> 
> Sounds like LSD, but it's LDS.



Things like cause and effect?


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## occupied (Aug 8, 2012)

Can't decide if I am an atheist or just incredibly pissed of at God. I can't accept that any God that gives a damn about us would allow what happened to a woman as selflessly giving and widely adored as my mother, she died after long and horrible suffering, can't forgive him/her/it for that, easier to just consider the universe empty and meaninglessly chaotic.


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## Moonglow (Aug 8, 2012)

Swagger said:


> My preferred 'story' concerning religion is actually an account of a real person from Alexandria in the 5th century. Hypatia, a woman, has often been credited with being the first mathmatician who hypothesised and sought to prove that the earth is a sphere, as opposed to being flat. But her teaching and theories offended the rising dominance of Christainity under Constantine. She was murdered and her school was trashed after refusing to capitulate to the bishop of Alexandria's will. These were the events that precipitated the burning of the Library of Alexandria, the single largest source of knowledge in the known world at the time.



The Agora is the movie. Terrible how early christians were vandals and murderers.


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## uscitizen (Aug 8, 2012)

Intense said:


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What the heck does that mean?


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## uscitizen (Aug 8, 2012)

Intense said:


> there4eyeM said:
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Cause and effect is scientific not mystical as it was once thought to be.
Like sacrificing a virgin to get the sun to come back from an eclipse.
And we are not done learning new things.  What is now mystical will one day be understood.


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## uscitizen (Aug 8, 2012)

Moonglow said:


> Swagger said:
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> > My preferred 'story' concerning religion is actually an account of a real person from Alexandria in the 5th century. Hypatia, a woman, has often been credited with being the first mathmatician who hypothesised and sought to prove that the earth is a sphere, as opposed to being flat. But her teaching and theories offended the rising dominance of Christainity under Constantine. She was murdered and her school was trashed after refusing to capitulate to the bishop of Alexandria's will. These were the events that precipitated the burning of the Library of Alexandria, the single largest source of knowledge in the known world at the time.
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Just the early ones?


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## manifold (Aug 8, 2012)

God, like many other things in life, is best consumed in moderation.


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## Avatar4321 (Aug 8, 2012)

uscitizen said:


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That's absurd. I rely on at least 4 manuscripts from various times and locations in addition to countless other witnesses to God and His glory. Most of all I rely on the testimony the Spirit has given me. When the Holy Ghost touches the heart and mind and testifies to the truth, it's impossible to deny without serious consequences.


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## Avatar4321 (Aug 8, 2012)

occupied said:


> Can't decide if I am an atheist or just incredibly pissed of at God. I can't accept that any God that gives a damn about us would allow what happened to a woman as selflessly giving and widely adored as my mother, she died after long and horrible suffering, can't forgive him/her/it for that, easier to just consider the universe empty and meaninglessly chaotic.



Im sorry to hear about your mother. You will see here again someday.

And if you are pissed at Him, feel free to talk to Him about it. He isnt going to hate you for being angry at Him. He loves you. He wants you to be happy. When and if you ever become ready, He will welcome you with open arms. 

I know you feel right now that you could never forgive Him. And you might not. But my experience with the Spirit tells me that when we feel the love of God touch our hearts, all the anger, bitterness, and pain are swallowed up in that love. I know when I feel the Spirit, it doesnt matter how I felt even five seconds before, I cant feel anything but love toward everyone. It's a marvelous experience, though i suppose it kind of sucks when you want to stay angry. Ive learned that I would rather not even if i temporarily feel like i do though.


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## Avatar4321 (Aug 8, 2012)

uscitizen said:


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No idea.


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## uscitizen (Aug 8, 2012)

Avatar4321 said:


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yeah I know all about the holy spirt/ghost.  I was raised up in a holy roller church (Assembly of God).
God never once spoke to me.
16 years.


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## Avatar4321 (Aug 8, 2012)

uscitizen said:


> yeah I know all about the holy spirt/ghost.  I was raised up in a holy roller church (Assembly of God).
> God never once spoke to me.
> 16 years.



Im sorry to hear that. Though in my own experience, when I had the specific moment where I recognized the Holy Spirit for what He was, I realized He had been trying to talk to me many times before then and that I just wasnt prepared to listen or recognize His influence.

Maybe it's the same for you. Maybe not. I don't know all the ways God works. All I know is He is there and loves us.


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## uscitizen (Aug 8, 2012)

Avatar4321 said:


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I realize how comforting that feeling can be, whether it is true or not.

I do not believe in any form of afterlife or supreme being.
I have lived over 2 years past my doctors expectations, when I die I just expect to cease to exist mentally since my "being" is based on my biological processes and my experiences in life.


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## Steelplate (Aug 8, 2012)

yes...occupied, I'm sorry about your mother too. I lost my dad in 1982 from emphysema, I was 17...he was sick from the time I was 11 and got increasingly worse until he died. My mom passed away in 2004 from complications from heart surgery.

I know where you are coming from. But, and I don't mean to sound flippant or insensitive....but we all die. Not all deaths are peaceful....my dad's certainly wasn't. His skin complexion was black from lack of oxygen and he was screaming for God to help him. It's an image that still haunts me 30 years later. I still feel guilt for asking God to take him.

I know my time is coming someday, and the older I get, the sooner it's going to happen. I just hope that I don't have to go like that.


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## uscitizen (Aug 8, 2012)

Steelplate said:


> yes...occupied, I'm sorry about your mother too. I lost my dad in 1982 from emphysema, I was 17...he was sick from the time I was 11 and got increasingly worse until he died. My mom passed away in 2004 from complications from heart surgery.
> 
> I know where you are coming from. But, and I don't mean to sound flippant or insensitive....but we all die. Not all deaths are peaceful....my dad's certainly wasn't. His skin complexion was black from lack of oxygen and he was screaming for God to help him. It's an image that still haunts me 30 years later. I still feel guilt for asking God to take him.
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> I know my time is coming someday, and the older I get, the sooner it's going to happen. I just hope that I don't have to go like that.



and we consider it a sin/illegal to take our own lives in those kinds of situations?
Go to hell and suffer for all eternity for ending my suffering on this earth?
Yeah a great God....


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## Steelplate (Aug 8, 2012)

uscitizen said:


> Steelplate said:
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Actually, my Mom put a stop to it. She demanded that the Dr. give him something to make him comfortable....he said "you know it will kill him?", She said that he was dying anyway and there's no reason to let him suffer....the Doc agreed and gave him a shot that allowed him to fall asleep. Once he fell asleep, he wasn't able to struggle for breath anymore and never woke up.


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## occupied (Aug 8, 2012)

Avatar4321 said:


> occupied said:
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> > Can't decide if I am an atheist or just incredibly pissed of at God. I can't accept that any God that gives a damn about us would allow what happened to a woman as selflessly giving and widely adored as my mother, she died after long and horrible suffering, can't forgive him/her/it for that, easier to just consider the universe empty and meaninglessly chaotic.
> ...



Heard all that stuff from my fundamentalist family members already, my crisis of faith is long over. As I sit here I wonder why I ever put a bit of faith in such a negligent monster as God and it's not just over the horrible fearful death of my mother but everyone's mother and father and sister and brother who endure so much suffering and need at the hands of the terribly cold and evil people who seem to rule God's green earth. When God starts smiting the evil rather than rewarding them then I will think about reconciling with Him. Don't speak to me of the usual cop-outs of original sin or Satan ruling the earth or necessary temptation or any of the other excuses, they are entirely unsatisfactory to comfort such a rational person as I was born to be.


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## uscitizen (Aug 8, 2012)

God and the concept of worship me now and I will reward you after you die seems like the ultimate scam to me.

Give me your money and soul and you will be paid back after you die....

somehow that cheapens the only sure life we have.


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## Intense (Aug 8, 2012)

uscitizen said:


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Try looking at organized Religion, as training wheels, until you get your bearings. No One is meant to go through life looking through other peoples eyes. We Each have our unique perspective on life and God. Basing God's existence or nonexistence on what other people tell you about him, seems very limited. Conscience is the Souls Ambassador.


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## Intense (Aug 8, 2012)

occupied said:


> Can't decide if I am an atheist or just incredibly pissed of at God. I can't accept that any God that gives a damn about us would allow what happened to a woman as selflessly giving and widely adored as my mother, she died after long and horrible suffering, can't forgive him/her/it for that, easier to just consider the universe empty and meaninglessly chaotic.



I stopped blaming God for what we do to each other with free will, long ago.


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## Moonglow (Aug 8, 2012)

Intense said:


> occupied said:
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Can't ask God either their is so much inhumanity, it's humans doing it, not God.


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## Intense (Aug 8, 2012)

uscitizen said:


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or, man's interpretation.


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## Moonglow (Aug 8, 2012)

Intense said:


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I have the World _Encyclopedia of Religions_, includes all religions from the dawn of religion and humans, to present.


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## occupied (Aug 8, 2012)

Intense said:


> occupied said:
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Oh yes, I forgot to include that one in my list of cop-outs to explain why such a lazy, negligent God allows so much needless suffering.


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## Intense (Aug 8, 2012)

Moonglow said:


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My question would be, To what end? What comes next, or is this it? If this is just a small part of the Journey, I can understand it better. If what happen here is just part of the process, then there are meanings yet to be revealed. Are we all in the same boat? Is cause and effect part of the equation? Are we being made ready? On who's terms are we even here?


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## Moonglow (Aug 8, 2012)

occupied said:


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Have you any children that you have raised? If so you can see why God can't intervene when it is the children that can't be controlled.


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## Intense (Aug 8, 2012)

occupied said:


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I'll tell you what. Let's take a walk out at Robert Moses State Park, on the beach, during a Lightening Storm, and you can expand on how lazy you think God is. My point here, is there are things in our lives, that humble, and put things into better perspective. We have enough arrogance going around. I don't confuse laziness with patience and compassion. When was the last time you put God first in all things? When was the first time?


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## Moonglow (Aug 8, 2012)

Intense said:


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Looking at the written history of mankind there are two demensions that seem to repeat. War and peace.
Destruction or creation of civilization.
Hatred or love.
empathey or anti empathy.

There is nothing new about what humans are doing, except, for the introduction of nuclear weapons and other weapons of mass destruction that can literilly if used in large quantities would and could end the entire human presence.


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## occupied (Aug 8, 2012)

Intense said:


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I grew up in a fundamentalist christian home. Until my mid twenties I was pretty devout and came to my current beliefs through living and witnessing some of most horrible occurrences anyone can have in the modern western world. If we do not try to make the world a better place it is clear that God is not going to do a thing about it and it seems many so-called christians are satisfied to follow God's example and not do a thing about it either.


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## Steelplate (Aug 8, 2012)

Intense said:


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I still have a lot of trouble with that...putting God first, that is. Take church for instance...I have a good paying job, however, working with the Developmentally disabled is a 24/7 proposition. I get one weekend off/month and on that one Sunday, I find it a very difficult thing to get up and drag myself to our 9AM service. 

Next Sunday (the 19th), our church is starting an evening service. That will broaden my opportunities and I am hoping that those new opportunities will develop into a habit. The only thing I am concerned about is that the evening service is going to be a Contemporary service. I've always gone to Traditional services, so I'm not sure if I'll feel comfortable with it. I do play guitar and sing on a semi-professional basis, so I'm looking forward to trying to get more involved that way.

Now, I know that one does not need to be in a brick and mortar church to be a Christian. But I do think that those of us who don't tend to focus harder on our everyday lives than on God....at least that's the way it is for me.


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## AVG-JOE (Aug 8, 2012)

Avatar4321 said:


> When the Holy Ghost touches the heart and mind and testifies to the truth, it's impossible to deny without serious consequences.



That's me... Serious consequences in the flesh.


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## Steelplate (Aug 8, 2012)

occupied said:


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That's why....and I don't mean to offend Conservatives here....I find more in common with liberals. My faith points me in that direction. As far as personal sins like abortions and homosexuality? I'm a sinner too....we all are.  Their sins are no worse than anyone else's. We are all trying to get through this life and we all sin.

So I don't try to judge people....well....that's a lie....I do it quite often on here. But in real life? I try to do the best I can. Places like this are an environment which breeds animosity and anger...I'm really not an angry person in person.

I just believe that we are our brother's keeper and God wants us to take care of each other...even if we don't feel they deserve it.


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## Foxfyre (Aug 8, 2012)

AVG-JOE said:


> If God is, doesn't it make sense that She's WAY bigger than *all* of the Ancient Stories put together, let alone any one of them?
> 
> Google Search: Books considered 'Holy'
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Absolutely.  The ancients who wrote the holy books back then and the theologians of today are totally limited by their own experience, their ability to reason and understand, their perceptions, their language, and their cultural conditioning.  The best that mortal man can do is write within all those limitations and that 'best' is totally inadequate to define or describe the God they believe created them.

When you think about it, any God that we would be able to explain, describe, or define would be a pretty puny God.  Nevertheless, the small glimpses and relatively limited understanding that we do have are totally awesome.


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## Leweman (Aug 8, 2012)

If God is then God should only be referred to as God.


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## Swagger (Aug 8, 2012)

Moonglow said:


> Swagger said:
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> ...



A sizable portion of the UK's old grammar school curriculum focused on the classics. That's where I first read about Hypatia, amongst many others. But yes, I have seen the movie you speak of. 

I suppose the point I was alluding to was that if the ancients theorised over such a drastic contradiction to what was upheld up to a thousand years later, who knows how far advanced we'd be today if the Christians didn't take such offense at scientific and mathematical investigation. Who knows, we might've reached the Moon by the Middle Ages, as opposed the '60s.


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## Avatar4321 (Aug 8, 2012)

uscitizen said:


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Well, when you get to the other side and realize you havent ceased mentally, there are going to be some people to talk to you, listen to them.


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## Foxfyre (Aug 8, 2012)

I think the 'other side' is going to hold a lot of surprises for all of us.  I fully epect to be surprised at how little interest there will be in my theology; less surprised to find out how silly we are in our concepts of the correct way to 'do church'.  I fully expect to be surprised in various ways we have been wrong in some of our interpretations of religious teachings.

I do think the most surprised of all, however, will be our Atheists.


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## Steelplate (Aug 8, 2012)

Foxfyre said:


> I think the 'other side' is going to hold a lot of surprises for all of us.  I fully epect to be surprised at how little interest there will be in my theology; less surprised to find out how silly we are in our concepts of the correct way to 'do church'.  I fully expect to be surprised in various ways we have been wrong in some of our interpretations of religious teachings.
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> I do think the most surprised of all, however, will be our Atheists.



Yeah....I understand where you're coming from. All of this stuff we talk about everyday will probably seem pretty silly. I find near death experience testimony interesting, skeptics say it's a chemical release....but I don't necessarily believe it.

I must admit that I also have a "guilty pleasure" fascination with the paranormal shows...like Ghost Hunters, and Long Island Medium.....I am a huge skeptic, of course....but, like I said.... a guilty pleasure.

But anyway...I agree with you.


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## Foxfyre (Aug 8, 2012)

Steelplate said:


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Yes I also have an interest in the paranormal--ghosts, angels, demons, and such--and while I have never encountered one with full awareness anyway, there are enough credible people who say they have so I cannot rule out any possibilities entirely.  Same with UFOs.  

But I also believe we understand such a tiny fraction of all that there is to know, to rule out anything just because we have not personally experienced it is to be exremely narrow and shortsighted.


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## uscitizen (Aug 8, 2012)

Foxfyre said:


> I think the 'other side' is going to hold a lot of surprises for all of us.  I fully epect to be surprised at how little interest there will be in my theology; less surprised to find out how silly we are in our concepts of the correct way to 'do church'.  I fully expect to be surprised in various ways we have been wrong in some of our interpretations of religious teachings.
> 
> I do think the most surprised of all, however, will be our Atheists.



How can one who does not exist be suprised?
Neither can they be dissapointed


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## uscitizen (Aug 8, 2012)

Steelplate said:


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I have seen the light, no angels, etc just a bright light.  Somethintg about my optic center shutting down or something I expect it was.
the brain does not completly shut down for a bit after official death.


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## Foxfyre (Aug 8, 2012)

Swagger said:


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Compared to the medieval doctines and superstitions, do you think people now are less self-limiting, less dogmatic, less tied to the current theories and dogma, less likely to make a religion of the current accepted wisdom re science, phenomena, and speculation?


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## Borillar (Aug 8, 2012)

AVG-JOE said:


> If God is, doesn't it make sense that She's WAY bigger than *all* of the Ancient Stories put together, let alone any one of them?
> 
> Google Search: Books considered 'Holy'
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> ...



I am a Christian, but find many of the notions of organized Christianity to be pretty far-fetched. But my beliefs and faith, however another person may perceive to be irrational or illogical, is based upon my own life experiences and observations. YMMV. 

"The most preposterous notion that H. sapiens has ever dreamed up is that the Lord God of Creation, Shaper and Ruler of all the Universes, wants the saccharine adoration of His creatures, can be swayed by their prayers, and becomes petulant if He does not receive this flattery. Yet this absurd fantasy, without a shred of evidence to bolster it, pays all the expenses of the oldest, largest, and least productive Industry in all history."
 - "The Notebooks of Lazarus Long" Robert Heinlein    http://www.goodreads.com/quotes/8365-the-most-preposterous-notion-that-homo-sapiens-has-ever-dreamed


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## Swagger (Aug 8, 2012)

Foxfyre said:


> Swagger said:
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> > Moonglow said:
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That's a very broad question, in the absense of where those people are located, and consequently how secular their respective societies are. But yes, I believe they've departed from relying largely on religious dictates in governing their lives and destiny. Evidence of this is all around us, at least in the west. For instance, when building large structures, we incorporate countermeasures against the elements as opposed to relying on divine intervention to protect the occupants against earthquakes and the like. Advances in medicine are further testimony to that. However, even in the west we're still bound inextricably to religion, such as swearing on the Bible in court, conventional marriage vows, etc.


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## Steelplate (Aug 8, 2012)

uscitizen said:


> Steelplate said:
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Did you have the sense of peace and love like others feel?


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## Intense (Aug 8, 2012)

occupied said:


> Intense said:
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What comes around goes around.


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## Intense (Aug 8, 2012)

Steelplate said:


> Intense said:
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Where do you go that you leave your conscience behind? Where, that you don't have an effect or influence? .......


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## hortysir (Aug 8, 2012)

uscitizen said:


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And it was mere humans that have written their scientific theories of why he doesn't exist, yet you accept their writings.

The 9th word in the OP demonstrates that there was never any intent of having a serious debate on the matter, though, so.......


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## Borillar (Aug 8, 2012)

Foxfyre said:


> I think the 'other side' is going to hold a lot of surprises for all of us.  I fully epect to be surprised at how little interest there will be in my theology; less surprised to find out how silly we are in our concepts of the correct way to 'do church'.  I fully expect to be surprised in various ways we have been wrong in some of our interpretations of religious teachings.
> 
> I do think the most surprised of all, however, will be our Atheists.



Perhaps the Hari Krishna devotees will be proven to be right all along.


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## Intense (Aug 8, 2012)

Borillar said:


> Foxfyre said:
> 
> 
> > I think the 'other side' is going to hold a lot of surprises for all of us.  I fully epect to be surprised at how little interest there will be in my theology; less surprised to find out how silly we are in our concepts of the correct way to 'do church'.  I fully expect to be surprised in various ways we have been wrong in some of our interpretations of religious teachings.
> ...



In relation to what? Diabetes? Aerobics?


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## AVG-JOE (Aug 8, 2012)

uscitizen said:


> Cause and effect is scientific not mystical as it was once thought to be.
> Like sacrificing a virgin to get the sun to come back from an eclipse.
> *And we are not done learning new things.  What is now mystical will one day be understood.*



  To The Future!  And to Sentience!

And to Momma's Little Bastards..... ours may be a somewhat rough kickoff, but we're also off to a hopeful kickoff, on a quest to follow our Curiosity to the stars.​

Are you kids there yet?


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## Steelplate (Aug 8, 2012)

Intense said:


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Good point.


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## AVG-JOE (Aug 8, 2012)

Avatar4321 said:


> Im sorry to hear about your mother. You will see here again someday.



Typo aside, and with all due respect to occupied, I think you're wrong.

Not necessarily with *what* you believe... the next chapter truly is anyone's guess (and I defy anyone to PROVE otherwise)... it's the way you say it.  Like it's simply a matter of fact.

I'm going to haunt everyone who says something to the effect of "he's in a better place" at my funeral.  The truth is that nobody knows and if anyone actually did know, nobody would have to believe any more.

The first generation to understand what it means to give to their neighbors the right to be wrong in their after-death imaginings gets to watch their children reach for the stars.


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## uscitizen (Aug 8, 2012)

Steelplate said:


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peace yes, quiet and calm.  Love?


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## AVG-JOE (Aug 8, 2012)

uscitizen said:


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  Seriously?!?  When I was there I found folks were jealous because The Voice was talking to me.
​


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## uscitizen (Aug 8, 2012)

AVG-JOE said:


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I always like how when they spoke in tongues the same words would translate differently from time to time.  They did the translations of course.


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## Steelplate (Aug 8, 2012)

uscitizen said:


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I've heard it put that way...just curious.


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## AVG-JOE (Aug 8, 2012)

uscitizen said:


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That's what I *think* too.  

My *hope* is that we're born again as Stars with a desire to nurture a living planet and to pray for Sentience.

My 'belief' depends on my mood when asked.

Yeah, I know... mushy fucking belief - but I'm good with it.


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## hortysir (Aug 8, 2012)

uscitizen said:


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I'm sorry you weren't ever overtaken by the Holy Ghost, USC.

Most times, in my church, there wasn't a translator tho......
When in prayer why would someone need to have their heart translated for others?


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## Intense (Aug 8, 2012)

uscitizen said:


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No coincidence there.   Or is there?


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## uscitizen (Aug 8, 2012)

hortysir said:


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Prayer?  this is dancing around with arms waving in the air wailing and such.

But strangely enough the church considered dancing a sin and going to movies, etc.
You would burn for that kind of behaviour.


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## AVG-JOE (Aug 8, 2012)

Steelplate said:


> yes...occupied, I'm sorry about your mother too. I lost my dad in 1982 from emphysema, I was 17...he was sick from the time I was 11 and got increasingly worse until he died. My mom passed away in 2004 from complications from heart surgery.
> 
> I know where you are coming from. But, and I don't mean to sound flippant or insensitive....but we all die. Not all deaths are peaceful....my dad's certainly wasn't. His skin complexion was black from lack of oxygen and he was screaming for God to help him. It's an image that still haunts me 30 years later. I still feel guilt for asking God to take him.
> 
> I know my time is coming someday, and the older I get, the sooner it's going to happen. I just hope that I don't have to go like that.



  To a peaceful end to a hell of a ride!


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## AVG-JOE (Aug 8, 2012)

uscitizen said:


> God and the concept of worship me now and I will reward you after you die seems like the ultimate scam to me.
> 
> Give me your money and soul and you will be paid back after you die....
> 
> somehow that cheapens the only sure life we have.



_"I went skyyyyyyy... diving!"_

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ov9chHk8_As]Live Like You Were Dying by Tim McGraw (lyrics in description) - YouTube[/ame]


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## AVG-JOE (Aug 8, 2012)

Moonglow said:


> occupied said:
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Or... Humanity is a perfect example of a fatherless bastard forced to educate itself or die trying.


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## hortysir (Aug 8, 2012)

uscitizen said:


> God and the concept of worship me now and I will reward you after you die seems like the ultimate scam to me.
> 
> Give me your money and soul and *you will be paid back after you die*....
> 
> somehow that cheapens the only sure life we have.




That's because you look at this short life and death as IT, period.


I look at death as just a small step towards even more.

I don't believe that a loving Father punishes *for eternity* a mere human's short time on earth's mistakes.


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## Desperado (Aug 8, 2012)

Just by observing nature, one has to see some intelligent design behind the whole thing, the odds of it being a result of a big bang do not seem plausible.   I also feel that there are too many coincidences to be just happenstance.  I tend to follow the line of thought of Deism.


> Deism is knowledge of God based on the application of our reason on the designs/laws found throughout Nature. The designs presuppose a Designer. Deism is therefore a natural religion and is not a "revealed" religion. The natural religion/philosophy of Deism frees those who embrace it from the inconsistencies of superstition and the negativity of fear that are so strongly represented in all of the "revealed" religions such as Judaism, Christianity and Islam. (These religions are called revealed religions because they all make claim to having received a special revelation from God which they pretend, and many of their sincere followers actually believe, their various and conflicting holy books are based on.) When enough people become Deists, reason will be elevated over fear and myth and its positive qualities will become a part of society as a whole. Then, instead of having billions of people chasing after the nonsensical violence promoting myths of the "revealed" religions, people will be centered on their God-given reason which will lead to limitless personal and societal progress!


 Deism Defined, Welcome to Deism, Deist Glossary and Frequently Asked Questions


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## Steelplate (Aug 8, 2012)

uscitizen said:


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I'm sorry you were brought up in that kind of environment. Those types of expressions of faith do not reach me either. Of course, to each their own...I don't mean to dismiss or diminish anyone else's method of worship....but it's not how I was raised.

I can see how such zeal could be a turn off to someone. But there are other ways, other churches. Obviously, the choice is yours....so don't think I'm preaching to you.


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## midcan5 (Aug 8, 2012)

An ancient answered already. "Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones."  Marcus Aurelius


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## Avatar4321 (Aug 8, 2012)

occupied said:


> Oh yes, I forgot to include that one in my list of cop-outs to explain why such a lazy, negligent God allows so much needless suffering.



And how do we determine what is needless?


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## Avatar4321 (Aug 8, 2012)

AVG-JOE said:


> Avatar4321 said:
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> 
> > When the Holy Ghost touches the heart and mind and testifies to the truth, it's impossible to deny without serious consequences.
> ...



Nah you're harmless


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## Avatar4321 (Aug 8, 2012)

Steelplate said:


> That's why....and I don't mean to offend Conservatives here....I find more in common with liberals. My faith points me in that direction. As far as personal sins like abortions and homosexuality? I'm a sinner too....we all are.  Their sins are no worse than anyone else's. We are all trying to get through this life and we all sin.
> 
> So I don't try to judge people....well....that's a lie....I do it quite often on here. But in real life? I try to do the best I can. Places like this are an environment which breeds animosity and anger...I'm really not an angry person in person.
> 
> I just believe that we are our brother's keeper and God wants us to take care of each other...even if we don't feel they deserve it.



Tell me about it. It's difficult not to lose ones anger here. Today has been one of those days I've been angry. It's not easy.

God does want us to take care of one another. and it's not easy. Boy is it hard to love some people. Extremely hard.

But I've found it's worth it to try, even if the dont respond.


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## Avatar4321 (Aug 8, 2012)

Leweman said:


> If God is then God should only be referred to as God.



You lost me here


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## Avatar4321 (Aug 8, 2012)

Foxfyre said:


> I think the 'other side' is going to hold a lot of surprises for all of us.  I fully epect to be surprised at how little interest there will be in my theology; less surprised to find out how silly we are in our concepts of the correct way to 'do church'.  I fully expect to be surprised in various ways we have been wrong in some of our interpretations of religious teachings.
> 
> I do think the most surprised of all, however, will be our Atheists.



I think they will be pleasantly surprised though. atleast after their "Oh S*@&" moment.


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## Avatar4321 (Aug 8, 2012)

hortysir said:


> uscitizen said:
> 
> 
> > God and the concept of worship me now and I will reward you after you die seems like the ultimate scam to me.
> ...



You're right. He doesn't punish for Eternity. He provides Eternal Punishment. It's a mystery that makes sense when you understand the play on words used. Understanding it also gives totally new meaning to Eternal life.


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## Avatar4321 (Aug 8, 2012)

uscitizen said:


> Prayer?  this is dancing around with arms waving in the air wailing and such.
> 
> But strangely enough the church considered dancing a sin and going to movies, etc.
> You would burn for that kind of behaviour.



That's insane. (No offense to anyone who believes that stuff).


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## Avatar4321 (Aug 8, 2012)

midcan5 said:


> An ancient answered already. "Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones."  Marcus Aurelius



It's good advice, but it presupposes that it's impossible to know God.


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## Avatar4321 (Aug 8, 2012)

BTW I love the fact that we can have a real discussion on religion without crap that gets posted outside the clean zone.


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## Borillar (Aug 8, 2012)

uscitizen said:


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I was brought up in the AG church too. When I was a child it all made a big impression on me until one time someone was speaking in tongues and then two people began to interpret, but the interpretations were different. From that point, I figured it was bullshit. It made me question a lot of other Church dogma as well.


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## Avatar4321 (Aug 8, 2012)

Borillar said:


> I was brought up in the AG church too. When I was a child it all made a big impression on me until one time someone was speaking in tongues and then two people began to interpret, but the interpretations were different. From that point, I figured it was bullshit. It made me question a lot of other Church dogma as well.



I've never understood the gift of tongues to be interpreted the way they do. When the Apostles spoke in Tongues on the day of Pentecost it wasnt in some bizzarre language no one understood. They spoke in the many languages of the people present. 

I've always understood the gift of tongues to manifest itself so that people can understand the Gospel better. I know that men can speak in unknown language, but I dont think that's a common gift, or one we should seek after. Much better to prophecy.


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## AVG-JOE (Aug 8, 2012)

hortysir said:


> uscitizen said:
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Just 'cause I posit that God might be feminine you discount the entire conversation as irrelevant?

That's harsh, Bro'.


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## AVG-JOE (Aug 8, 2012)

Avatar4321 said:


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Can't be, Brother.  I have been touched by the Holy Ghost, spoken in tongues, and now I deny Him and His Christ.  According to your post, I'm either capable of the impossible or I'm serious consequences in the flesh.  

The practical side of me is going with serious consequences walking, ass-u-me-ing the Christians are correct.  Shame the devil and tell the truth, Christians believe that there is a very special place in hell for me.

* yawn *


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## The Professor (Aug 8, 2012)

Steelplate said:


> I guess what gets to me is the notion that God and science can't coexist. Between the naivety of the Fundamentalists that refuse scientific evidence to the folks that can reason the complexities of the Universe, but still think it's all a random coincidence.
> 
> One side as bad as the other.



I've always thought that nature was the way God does things, and science was the study of nature; therefore, science is simply the study of the way God does things.  I do not believe that the Bible is the complete, inerrant and inspired word of God; however, I find that within its pages there is much wisdom.   I think the following verses are significant:

&#8220;The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork. Day unto day uttereth speech, and night unto night sheweth knowledge. There is no speech nor language, where their voice is not heard&#8221; (Psalms 19:1-3, KJV). 

&#8220;For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse&#8221; (Romans 1:20, KJV). 

There is no conflict between science and God, nor could there be.   Things cannot operate contrary to the design of their Creator.    Pure solid lead will always sink in pure liquid water and, and all of creation must act and interact in strict accordance with the laws of God which I call nature.


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## Avatar4321 (Aug 8, 2012)

AVG-JOE said:


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And im telling you the truth when I dont think you'll be in hell. I think you will be redeemed. You may not see it today but God has a way of doing miracles.


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## AVG-JOE (Aug 8, 2012)

Avatar4321 said:


> uscitizen said:
> 
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> > Prayer?  this is dancing around with arms waving in the air wailing and such.
> ...


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## Avatar4321 (Aug 8, 2012)

The Professor said:


> Steelplate said:
> 
> 
> > I guess what gets to me is the notion that God and science can't coexist. Between the naivety of the Fundamentalists that refuse scientific evidence to the folks that can reason the complexities of the Universe, but still think it's all a random coincidence.
> ...



Totally agree with that there. With my finite understanding I am not going to pretend to think I know all that God has to reveal concerning science nor the Kingdom.

I also agree with your view of the Bible. I don't understand why people want to attribute to the Bible qualities it never claims.


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## HUGGY (Aug 8, 2012)

Steelplate said:


> I guess what gets to me is the notion that God and science can't coexist. Between the naivety of the Fundamentalists that refuse scientific evidence to the folks that can reason the complexities of the Universe, but still think it's all a random coincidence.
> 
> One side as bad as the other.



Science has already shown you more than enough evidense of the truth of "random" events.  Philosphy did not show you the earth is a sphere.  Words do little to explain what "is".  No god produced the pictures of our planet from space which makes it obvious to anything with even a resemblance of a brain what the deal is.  Then take a look at the moon...real close up..  Millions of craters...  and the comet that hit one of the moons of jupiter I believe.. That was science that SHOWED us what "is".  Not some sky fairy male or female.


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## uscitizen (Aug 8, 2012)

Steelplate said:


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Ohh I have tried other way and other churches over the years.  I have a couple of preachers I call friends, I also used to go the the seminary at Asbury and chat with the theologians there.
I am abbie nermal, I have no need for heroes or gods.  Never did.
I am content the way I am, Thanks for your concern.


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## uscitizen (Aug 8, 2012)

Borillar said:


> uscitizen said:
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Ahh you me and Sarah Palin


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## uscitizen (Aug 8, 2012)

Avatar4321 said:


> uscitizen said:
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> ...



Yeah my thoughts as well.

Now the exact same chruch does not view going to movies and dancing as sins.
Sins are sins and do not change like that.

And the infighting and such that goes on in churches.... cliques, etc....
Just examples of how very few humans can be true Christians.


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## Avatar4321 (Aug 8, 2012)

uscitizen said:


> Yeah my thoughts as well.
> 
> Now the exact same chruch does not view going to movies and dancing as sins.
> Sins are sins and do not change like that.
> ...



I dont care for the infighting much. I've always been for the philosophy that if i cant convince a man that my way is best, i lift him in his way.


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## Intense (Aug 8, 2012)

uscitizen said:


> Avatar4321 said:
> 
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People are People, Each with different measures of the same Spirit. Human Nature is what it is, in many senses, regardless of Faith, even in spite of it. There is outward and inward, too. Just as easy to focus on the blessings, even that of extended days, spent in the company of loved ones, as to spend time throwing stones. Comes a time we each need to open up our eyes, even if it's just for piece of mind.


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## Avatar4321 (Aug 8, 2012)

Intense said:


> People are People, Each with different measures of the same Spirit. Human Nature is what it is, in many senses, regardless of Faith, even in spite of it. There is outward and inward, too. Just as easy to focus on the blessings, even that of extended days, spent in the company of loved ones, as to spend time throwing stones. Comes a time we each need to open up our eyes, even if it's just for piece of mind.



I dont think everyone who claims to have the Spirit of God has it. Ill let God determine who is who, but I dont think the Holy Ghost is flashy, so to speak.


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## uscitizen (Aug 8, 2012)

Avatar4321 said:


> uscitizen said:
> 
> 
> > Yeah my thoughts as well.
> ...



Does not work too well in the jealousy and power struggles that happen from time to time in virtually all churches.

I also do not agree with dynastical churches, they tend to fall apart.
The crystal cathedral, etc.


Just as a humor note. I always chuckle when Christians get to trying to one up each other on who was the biggest sinner before they were saved.
Perhaps that is my problem I never sinnned enough?  Was always a nice polite guy...


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## Moonglow (Aug 8, 2012)

There is no Holy Ghost, the spirit lives after you die, many ghosts are here on Earth. But Christ is not a ghost, nor is God.


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## uscitizen (Aug 8, 2012)

Moonglow said:


> There is no Holy Ghost, the spirit lives after you die, many ghosts are here on Earth. But Christ is not a ghost, nor is God.



How do you know this?

btw I have never seen a ghost holy or not.


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## Avatar4321 (Aug 8, 2012)

uscitizen said:


> Does not work too well in the jealousy and power struggles that happen from time to time in virtually all churches.
> 
> I also do not agree with dynastical churches, they tend to fall apart.
> The crystal cathedral, etc.
> ...



Ive never seen that before. Most people i know dont talk about their past sins. They are in the past.


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## uscitizen (Aug 8, 2012)

Avatar4321 said:


> uscitizen said:
> 
> 
> > Does not work too well in the jealousy and power struggles that happen from time to time in virtually all churches.
> ...



Hmm AG does it, Many Methodists I have been around do it.
Maybe it is a Bible Belt thing?


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## Avatar4321 (Aug 8, 2012)

uscitizen said:


> Avatar4321 said:
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Could be. I dont understand being proud of your sins. if you are proud of them it doesnt sound like youve actually repented of them.


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## uscitizen (Aug 8, 2012)

Avatar4321 said:


> uscitizen said:
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I guess it is bragging rights like who lost the most weight among a bunch of dieting women?

And how much beind saved changed you?

Got me, I just get a chuckle out of it.
Gnite think I will go beddy bye.


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## there4eyeM (Aug 9, 2012)

"Terrible how early christians were vandals and murderers."

I'm not in the religion, but the man, Jesus, was enlightened. If 'Christian' means 'little Christ', then most who call themselves this do not have the right. Using the name is not the same as living it.

Like a lot of names. 'Republican'. 'Democrat'. 'Socialist'. 'Fundamentalist'..........


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## Borillar (Aug 9, 2012)

uscitizen said:


> Borillar said:
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Heh, my cousin who is a pastor, thinks Palin is some kind of modern day Esther. She was all hyped about her when McCain picked her to be VP.


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## uscitizen (Aug 9, 2012)

Borillar said:


> uscitizen said:
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Yeah I had an uncle who was an AG preacher.  Preached in a different church than the one I grew up in though.
He died long before Palin but I remember his distress over the Jimmy Swaggart mess, who was also AG.


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## Avatar4321 (Aug 9, 2012)

Borillar said:


> uscitizen said:
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I never would have reached that conclusion


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## Foxfyre (Aug 9, 2012)

Intense said:


> uscitizen said:
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Yes people are people.  Each and every one of us different and imperfect and capable of sin and a sinner.  Christians are no different and I just shake my head at those who think that if Christians are not perfect, then they are not true Christians.   Or they point to imperfections of Christians as 'proof' that Christianity is bogus.  That is akin to saying a person is not a scientist or mathematician or physicist if he or she makes a technical error or answers a question wrong on a test or disagrees with the conclusions of his/her peers.


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## M14 Shooter (Aug 9, 2012)

AVG-JOE said:


> If God is, doesn't it make sense that She's WAY bigger than *all* of the Ancient Stories put together, let alone any one of them?


Sure.  So what?


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## Avatar4321 (Aug 10, 2012)

Foxfyre said:


> Yes people are people.  Each and every one of us different and imperfect and capable of sin and a sinner.  Christians are no different and I just shake my head at those who think that if Christians are not perfect, then they are not true Christians.   Or they point to imperfections of Christians as 'proof' that Christianity is bogus.  That is akin to saying a person is not a scientist or mathematician or physicist if he or she makes a technical error or answers a question wrong on a test or disagrees with the conclusions of his/her peers.



In a way, I would argue that our flaws as Christians are evidence for Christianity, not against it. If we had no flaws, we would have no need for an Atonement. 

It's because of our foolish mistakes that we need mercy from God. It's because we cant do everything perfectly that we need the Grace of God to make up the difference.

That doesn't mean we should go ahead and sin without regard to the truth, it just means that we arent perfect when we strive to be. We are still commanded to love Christ and that means keeping His commandments.


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## Dajjal (Aug 12, 2012)

We have only to look at the pictures from the hubble telescope, that can look back to the begining of the universe, and study a smattering of quantum physics, to realize that a God that could put all that into motion must be, an absolutely vast mental being. He must have concieved of a theory of everything down to the smallest particle, then put the whole thing into motion by some gigantic act of willpower.

ONE BIG GOD.

Therefore the ancient texts of ALL the so called holy books are just the attempts of early societys to try and get a handle on God. But there never was any chance they would contain the truth about God.
No book ever can or will define God.


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## uscitizen (Aug 12, 2012)

Avatar4321 said:


> Foxfyre said:
> 
> 
> > Yes people are people.  Each and every one of us different and imperfect and capable of sin and a sinner.  Christians are no different and I just shake my head at those who think that if Christians are not perfect, then they are not true Christians.   Or they point to imperfections of Christians as 'proof' that Christianity is bogus.  That is akin to saying a person is not a scientist or mathematician or physicist if he or she makes a technical error or answers a question wrong on a test or disagrees with the conclusions of his/her peers.
> ...



Are you trying to say that mankinds flaws proves god exists?


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## CausingPAIN (Aug 12, 2012)

uscitizen said:


> Avatar4321 said:
> 
> 
> > uscitizen said:
> ...



Not all by humans.. did not some lighting on stone slabs be done?


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## Foxfyre (Aug 12, 2012)

uscitizen said:


> Avatar4321 said:
> 
> 
> > Foxfyre said:
> ...



No he is reporting the Christian belief that because humankind are imperfect beings, God became incarnate and showed us how to be better, but more importantly, showed us eternal life despite our imperfections.  He gave us hope and the vision  that the existing life that we know is not all that there is.  He showed us that we are not limited by our currently situation or our current understanding of anything.


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## uscitizen (Aug 12, 2012)

Foxfyre said:


> uscitizen said:
> 
> 
> > Avatar4321 said:
> ...



All just a belief.


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## Foxfyre (Aug 12, 2012)

uscitizen said:


> Foxfyre said:
> 
> 
> > uscitizen said:
> ...



A belief that has been held/is held by billions.   You know if billions of people said they knew such a thing as a flying pig exists, most intelligent people would at least consider whether such a thing was possible.  But the dedicated Atheist won't accept that billions of people have experienced the living God or at least received happiness or assurance through Christianity.   It doesn't make it hard to conclude that not believing takes a whole lot more faith than believing.


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## there4eyeM (Aug 12, 2012)

"...did not some lighting on stone slabs be done?"

Links?

Just kidding. It would be nice if we could see these, though.
Like the Book of Mormon.


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## newpolitics (Aug 12, 2012)

Swagger said:


> My preferred 'story' concerning religion is actually an account of a real person from Alexandria in the 5th century. Hypatia, a woman, has often been credited with being the first mathmatician who hypothesised and sought to prove that the earth is a sphere, as opposed to being flat. But her teaching and theories offended the rising dominance of Christainity under Constantine. She was murdered and her school was trashed after refusing to capitulate to the bishop of Alexandria's will. These were the events that precipitated the burning of the Library of Alexandria, the single largest source of knowledge in the known world at the time.



Hypatia could not have been the first person to postulate the roundness of the earth, as Eratosthenes (276-195 BC), an greek, successfully and accurately measured the circumference of the earth before 200 BC. He also accurately measured the degree of tilt on Earth's axis, and the distance of the earth to the sun (don't ask me how- look it up). This is important because Christians will claim that the bible says the earth was round before anybody could have known it.  First of all, it doesn't. It says it is a circle, and flat. "Who stretched a measuring line across it?" JOB 38:44. You don't measure across a sphere, you measure around it.


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## newpolitics (Aug 12, 2012)

Foxfyre said:


> uscitizen said:
> 
> 
> > Foxfyre said:
> ...



This is an argument from authority, and does not mean that a god(s) exists, no matter how many believe it. The number of people who have "faith" in some god, just means that people want to believe in something. It does not mean that what they believe in is real. "All of the world's religions can not be right, but they can all be wrong." - Matt Dillahunty


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## Foxfyre (Aug 12, 2012)

newpolitics said:


> Foxfyre said:
> 
> 
> > uscitizen said:
> ...



Not an argument from authority at all.  Or even numbers.  Just common sense.  Certanly numbers or the prevailing wisdom is not authority.  Most of the world once thought the Earth to be flat and that it was the center of the universe.  We now know that despite how much peer review there was, that was wrong.   But also, that was not based on experience, but rather peer teaching.

But when an extraordinary number of persons report a personal experience, and no conspiracy is possible, it is only logical to conclude that they are experiencing something whether they understand it correctly or not.  If you have never been in love, do you conclude that no such thing isn't possible even after many, many others report the experience of being in love?   Do you say it is only a belief?


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## uscitizen (Aug 12, 2012)

Foxfyre said:


> uscitizen said:
> 
> 
> > Foxfyre said:
> ...



the ratio is what matters not the numbers which grow as the population grows.
At one time most people believed in witches.
They would fall off the edge of the world, that veliciraptors only ate gay cavemen, etc.


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## newpolitics (Aug 12, 2012)

Foxfyre said:


> newpolitics said:
> 
> 
> > Foxfyre said:
> ...



I made a mistake. I meant to say that you are using an argument from popularity, which you absolutely are. You are saying that X amount of people believe this, so it must be true. That is fallacious.


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## newpolitics (Aug 12, 2012)

Foxfyre said:


> newpolitics said:
> 
> 
> > Foxfyre said:
> ...



To address the rest of your post:

Personal experience, is not and never will be empirical evidence about an objective phenomenon, no matter how many people experience it, simply because there are other possible explanations. I could make the argument that this phenomenon is the result of humans' need to believe in something to quell the fear of death and fear of unknown, which are two fears that make us feel out of control, thus producing anxiety and suffering. If a belief in god will quell this anxiety, it doesn't matter whether it is true or not, it only matters that it produces the desired effect of putting us at ease. This is the problem with the human mind. We will believe things just to feel better about ourselves or the universe, whether or not it corresponds with actual reality. So really, this is a psychological issue. In all likelihood, this is exactly why humans are primed to be religious. We have never had a natural explanation of anything until only very recently in our evolutionary history. Therefore, storytelling and religious ideas have been central to our understanding of the universe and our place in it, and thus, our understanding of ourselves. Psychologically, the ability to place our selves in the universe with a cohesive model that makes logical sense, is very important for our emotional well-being. Science can now provide that model on natural explanations. God is no longer needed. Those that hang onto god, are merely expressing an outdated version of our human software. It's time to catch up, and update.

The point is, is that there are other possible explanations for why so many people believe in god, other than god, and they make just as much, if not more sense, than "god exists."


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## uscitizen (Aug 12, 2012)

And all of us do not have exactly the same software package and do not have that "god sized hole" in our subroutines.


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## newpolitics (Aug 12, 2012)

uscitizen said:


> And all of us do not have exactly the same software package and do not have that "god sized hole" in our subroutines.



Yes. I could even say that the software that informs beliefs about god in some people, is "produced" during childhood indoctrination, causing them to feel this "god sized hole" that then, only god can fill. This software then, is contingent upon other people telling them certain information is true. This is not evidence of a supernatural deity, but again, only of how susceptible the mind is to forming beliefs because an authoritative figure (priest, mother, father, etc...) is telling them something is true. When we are little, we want to please our mother and father, and will adopt their beliefs, including spiritual beliefs, to do so. This is not a pathway to truth, but again, evidence of human susceptibility to bad information in order to remain socially acceptable within a family context.


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## Foxfyre (Aug 12, 2012)

newpolitics said:


> Foxfyre said:
> 
> 
> > newpolitics said:
> ...



I won't argue the point with you.  If you don't believe you don't believe.  I am only making a case for why it is far more rational to keep an open mind than it is to dismiss or try to explain away the reported personal experience of billions of people.


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## uscitizen (Aug 12, 2012)

newpolitics said:


> uscitizen said:
> 
> 
> > And all of us do not have exactly the same software package and do not have that "god sized hole" in our subroutines.
> ...



but with a few of us even that level of indoctrination does not work.


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## uscitizen (Aug 12, 2012)

Foxfyre said:


> newpolitics said:
> 
> 
> > Foxfyre said:
> ...



yeah well billions of people seem to like facebook.


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## newpolitics (Aug 12, 2012)

Foxfyre said:


> newpolitics said:
> 
> 
> > Foxfyre said:
> ...



That's sensible, except, I'm not explaining away or dismissing away anything, merely looking for a secular explanation, as would follow given I don't believe in any gods. A personal experience is just that: personal. It doesn't give sufficient reason for anyone else who hasn't experienced something supernatural, to believe in a supernatural being whom they have no personal interaction with, and can not otherwise identify as existing anywhere in reality. I can't say that god doesn't exist with absolute certainty, or that your experiences were not real. They may very well may have been and god may exist, I just don't believe that, because I am not convinced. The kinds of experiences people have which they attribute to god, can most likely be explained naturally. If someone wants to believe something (ie, that a god exists because they are searching for meaning or a way out of a bad situation), they are biased about reality, and will slant any perceptions to try to insert god into something that may just be extremely coincidental or seemingly impossible. To me, an analogy would be looking for shapes in clouds. If you are looking for shapes, you will find them. If not, you will only see clouds. We are rational pattern-detecters, and if we choose or want to see a supernatural pattern creator, that is not hard for our minds to acheive, and convince ourselves that deity exists and is responsible for everything. I find the psychological reasons for faith fascinating, and admit that I do it from a secular framework: god doesn't exist, and people have faith for psychological reasons. I'm not trying to be insulting, I am simply trying to account for why so many people have faith. It seems reasonable that given all we don't know (to the laymen or non-scientist), it is easy to subscribe to the notion of a deity in order to make all of that uncertainty go away. Who knows though. I enjoy discussing it nevertheless.


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## Avatar4321 (Aug 12, 2012)

newpolitics said:


> To address the rest of your post:
> 
> Personal experience, is not and never will be empirical evidence about an objective phenomenon, no matter how many people experience it, simply because there are other possible explanations. I could make the argument that this phenomenon is the result of humans' need to believe in something to quell the fear of death and fear of unknown, which are two fears that make us feel out of control, thus producing anxiety and suffering. If a belief in god will quell this anxiety, it doesn't matter whether it is true or not, it only matters that it produces the desired effect of putting us at ease. This is the problem with the human mind. We will believe things just to feel better about ourselves or the universe, whether or not it corresponds with actual reality. So really, this is a psychological issue. In all likelihood, this is exactly why humans are primed to be religious. We have never had a natural explanation of anything until only very recently in our evolutionary history. Therefore, storytelling and religious ideas have been central to our understanding of the universe and our place in it, and thus, our understanding of ourselves. Psychologically, the ability to place our selves in the universe with a cohesive model that makes logical sense, is very important for our emotional well-being. Science can now provide that model on natural explanations. God is no longer needed. Those that hang onto god, are merely expressing an outdated version of our human software. It's time to catch up, and update.
> 
> The point is, is that there are other possible explanations for why so many people believe in god, other than god, and they make just as much, if not more sense, than "god exists."



So what your saying is we have three people who witness a mass murder and because they are personal experiences, unless there is additional "Empiracal" evidence, we should simply disregard their testimony because there could be "alternative" explanations?

More to the point, when I have a clearly defined personal experience with God, I should somehow ignore it because you havent had the same experience or sought your own? I dont find that logic compelling. I cant deny my experience with God than I could deny knowing my wife. I would be completely dishonest to do so. You have no obligation to believe me. But that doesnt change the fact that it's true. In fact, God specifically encourages us to find out for ourselves and come to Him. He can reveal Himself to whomever He chooses for whatever reasons.


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## newpolitics (Aug 12, 2012)

Avatar4321 said:


> newpolitics said:
> 
> 
> > To address the rest of your post:
> ...



Did I not explicitly state that you're experience is yours? I am not invalidating that, nor can I comment on whether it was authentic. I don't believe it was, but I can't know that with absolute certainty. I am not advocating you ignore you're own experience and never said this (I said the opposite), so don't put words in my mouth. All I said was, you're experiences do not give me a reason to believe as you do, simply because you relate such experiences. I don't believe that you're experience was caused by a supernatural being, essentially. There are other explanations. 

Witnessing a mass murder along with three people, is not a personal experience, it is a shared experience. Not to mention, this example is a bad analogy, since we are comparing experiences with a being beyond this universe, to an experience taking place within this universe (the murder). Firstly, My definition of a personal experience, especially with a supernatural being, would be that it took place between only that person and the supposed deity. No other human being could therefore possibly be involved in this personal experience, and as such, no else has justification to believe, given that, by definition, they did not experience the same thing. 

I find you're last part apalling. God "chooses" to reveal himself to certain people. If hell is real, and you suffer there for eternity, he is obligated to prevent us from all going as a moral imperative, considering he made the damn place, and the rules about who goes and who doesn't (supposedly), especially if "saving" everybody would simply require knowledge of his existence, which he could easily aide by revealing himself to everyone in a way that was undeniable. If he truly wants to connect with his creation, he could, but he doesn't. To me, god is not very smart (if he wants to achieve his stated goals), and as such, I believe he is not real, and completely man-made. That doesn't mean there isn't some deity out there, but I don't believe in any way, that this deity is the christian, jewish, muslim, hindu, etc..., god. There are too many blatant contradictions and logical impossibilities.


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## auditor0007 (Aug 13, 2012)

Steelplate said:


> I guess what gets to me is the notion that God and science can't coexist. Between the naivety of the Fundamentalists that refuse scientific evidence to the folks that can reason the complexities of the Universe, but still think it's all a random coincidence.
> 
> One side as bad as the other.



I owe you rep on this one.  There is no doubt that the science is there; the funny thing about it is that even with the science, the idea that it's all a complete crap shoot leaves me scratching my head.  For those who choose to absolutely deny that there is even a possibility of God, I find it amazing that anyone could be so arrogant as to think that through our current limited understanding of science that we actually know it all.  It's a bit like saying, we know it all now, so there is no need to continue progressing.  It reminds me of my teenage sons; they know everything too.


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## Foxfyre (Aug 13, 2012)

uscitizen said:


> Foxfyre said:
> 
> 
> > newpolitics said:
> ...



So, even if you had never seen Facebook,  the logical conclusion would be that 1)  Facebook exists and 2) There is something compelling or enjoyable about it.


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## there4eyeM (Aug 13, 2012)

"More to the point, when I have a clearly defined personal experience with God, I should somehow ignore it because you havent had the same experience or sought your own?"

Clearly defined to whom? To you! That means you had an internal (subjective) experience that refers to your (subjective) reality (as apparently occurred with Mr. Smith).
There is no evidence that the same thing would or even could occur to or for another perceiver.
That is why Jesus said, " the kingdom of heaven is within you." Where else could it be? Where else is anything? If it were 'outside', how could you know? Everything we know is internal. We decide that is is absolute, so for us it is true. That does not establish objective truth, since such a thing is unknowable.
But you have the choice of believing it is and forcing it on unfortunate others.


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## ski87 (Aug 13, 2012)

From a former Christian, future atheist, currently travelling the road of reason.  Since the 5th grade I have been taught to apply the scientific method to better understand the world that I live in and to apply this method to answer life's questions.  Oh, except for religion, does not apply in this instance, don't form a hypothesis, just have faith and your faith will set you free.  Yeah, that was ok for the first 20 years of my life, not so compelling anymore.


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## Old Rocks (Aug 14, 2012)

uscitizen said:


> If god is....
> 
> 
> Now that is the real question.
> ...



Very good point. Were I to have to choose a concept of a diety among the many, I would have to choose that of the Native Americans. That of a Spirit, no sex or form, that imbues to whole of the universe. No creation of a God in the image of man.


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## Old Rocks (Aug 14, 2012)

auditor0007 said:


> Steelplate said:
> 
> 
> > I guess what gets to me is the notion that God and science can't coexist. Between the naivety of the Fundamentalists that refuse scientific evidence to the folks that can reason the complexities of the Universe, but still think it's all a random coincidence.
> ...



Most of the primary founders of this nation were Diests. They believed that a Diety created the universe with fundemental laws, then let it evolve in it's own manner. And that it is up to us to make the best of it.


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## AVG-JOE (Aug 14, 2012)

Intense said:


> Moonglow said:
> 
> 
> > Intense said:
> ...



Is that a requirement?  To be here on someone's 'terms'?

Why can't we be here just because we're lucky?


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## Foxfyre (Aug 16, 2012)

AVG-JOE said:


> Intense said:
> 
> 
> > Moonglow said:
> ...



I have always thought I was 'lucky' to be born in America.  It has given me a freedom I likely would not have had in any other place.   I have always thought I was 'lucky' to be born a white, heterosexual American.  That has spared me much of the attention, discrimination, prejudices, injustices, and/or other disadvantages encountered by some others over the course of my lifetime.   I have always thought I was 'lucky' to be raised in the part of the country I have lived most of my life in as it has provided reinforcement of common sense values and points of view that have served me well.  I have always thought I was 'lucky' to be blessed with what talents, abilities, personal ambitions, and opportunities with which I have been blessed.  And I have always thought I was 'lucky' to grow up as a Christian as I think that has given me happiness and confidence that I likely would not have otherwise had.

There have been so many things that I think weren't so 'lucky for me, too.

I don't pretend to understand a world in which other people are born into circumstances that include none of the blessings I have enjoyed.   Why is that?  Luck of the draw?  Some kind of cosmic cruelty?  Or because only some people have done more with what they had to work with?

But why has the human species, one of the most genetically weak and inefficient, one of weakest of all species, pound for pound, so much more intellectually advanced in the whole grand process of evolution?   Why is the human species, of all species, the only species that seems to have an awareness of God or awareness, concern, and/or compassion for other species all across the earth?  Why is the human species of all species, the one least bound by a fixed nature or instinct?

And what is it in some humans that is so compassionate and dogmatic and compelled and determined to deny the existance of a God if there is in fact no such thing?   And those most dogmatic in their denial seem to be the most bothered that some of us believe.


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## ski87 (Aug 17, 2012)

Intelligent Design is the emerging belief that grabs me as most logical.  The universe is in constant chaos, the resultant order of our world is far too difficult to conceive as a spontaneaous result of all of the right conditions and elements coming together.  Haven't seen the burning bush survive not being consumed by flames, scientific method not working for me in virtually all judeo-christian religion.


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## AVG-JOE (Aug 17, 2012)

Foxfyre said:


> AVG-JOE said:
> 
> 
> > Intense said:
> ...



Because humanity is the only species that we know of that's standing on the threshold of Sentience.

Exciting times, eh?


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## HUGGY (Aug 18, 2012)

AVG-JOE said:


> *If God is*, doesn't it make sense that She's WAY bigger than *all* of the Ancient Stories put together, let alone any one of them?
> 
> Google Search: Books considered 'Holy'
> 
> ...



*If God is*

Moot point...god isn't.


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## Intense (Aug 18, 2012)

AVG-JOE said:


> Intense said:
> 
> 
> > Moonglow said:
> ...



My view, considering Cause and Effect, is that Luck, Providence, are conditional. Pay Backs are a Bitch.  Intention, Motive, Method, are each weighted factors in relation to outcome.


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## Intense (Aug 18, 2012)

ski87 said:


> Intelligent Design is the emerging belief that grabs me as most logical.  The universe is in constant chaos, the resultant order of our world is far too difficult to conceive as a spontaneaous result of all of the right conditions and elements coming together.  Haven't seen the burning bush survive not being consumed by flames, scientific method not working for me in virtually all judeo-christian religion.



Could have been a natural gas vent after a lightening strike, if you want to consider reasonable probability. Still, that is not proof God doesn't exist. Personally, I've been through too much to even doubt God's existence for even a moment. We have a habit of proclaiming what we have yet to understand, as chaos. To me, chaos is when two or more make plans to do anything.  If God had a middle name, I would think it to be something like "Complexity".


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## Avatar4321 (Aug 19, 2012)

AVG-JOE said:


> Foxfyre said:
> 
> 
> > AVG-JOE said:
> ...



Can we really claim this? I mean it's not like we understand the minds of other animals. For all we know, they could be on the other side of the sentience threshold. They may understand and know God far better than we do.


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## Avatar4321 (Aug 19, 2012)

HUGGY said:


> AVG-JOE said:
> 
> 
> > *If God is*, doesn't it make sense that She's WAY bigger than *all* of the Ancient Stories put together, let alone any one of them?
> ...



God disagrees. He says "I am".

But then we've already gone over this already.


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## Listening (Aug 19, 2012)

LoneLaugher said:


> No. There is no proof of any god. Seeing is believing.



There is a good chance that Fermi and Co. never saw an atom.  Yet they figured out how to split them.

Would you climb on a plane to China if you had not been there before ?


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## uscitizen (Aug 19, 2012)

Listening said:


> LoneLaugher said:
> 
> 
> > No. There is no proof of any god. Seeing is believing.
> ...



Nonsequiter.


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## Samson (Aug 19, 2012)

uscitizen said:


> Listening said:
> 
> 
> > LoneLaugher said:
> ...



I'm guessing your answer is "No, I would not fly to China because they eat dogs."


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## uscitizen (Aug 19, 2012)

I flew to china and ate no dogs.  Did eat pigeon though and green eggs and ham.
Ate only with sticks for a few weeks.

don't think God was involved though.


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## Samson (Aug 19, 2012)

uscitizen said:


> I flew to china and ate no dogs.  Did eat pigeon though and green eggs and ham.
> Ate only with sticks for a few weeks.
> 
> don't think God was involved though.



Dog is God spelled backwards.


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## uscitizen (Aug 19, 2012)

Samson said:


> uscitizen said:
> 
> 
> > I flew to china and ate no dogs.  Did eat pigeon though and green eggs and ham.
> ...



Is that significant in some way?


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## there4eyeM (Aug 19, 2012)

"Dog is God spelled backwards."

Only in English.

God is, or isn't, only in you.


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## Samson (Aug 19, 2012)

there4eyeM said:


> "Dog is God spelled backwards."
> 
> Only in English.



Well, it is a fine theological point you make, but I'm certain its not a conicidence that dogs are eaten by the Heathan Chinese.


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## there4eyeM (Aug 19, 2012)

It's an eater eat eater world.


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## Samson (Aug 19, 2012)

there4eyeM said:


> It's an eater eat eater world.



You're gonna confuse the hell outa USCitizen.


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## uscitizen (Aug 19, 2012)

Samson said:


> there4eyeM said:
> 
> 
> > It's an eater eat eater world.
> ...



Nope just you.  I am fond of 69 or 68 and I can owe her one


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## Samson (Aug 19, 2012)

uscitizen said:


> Samson said:
> 
> 
> > there4eyeM said:
> ...



Nonsequiter.


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## Foxfyre (Aug 19, 2012)

AVG-JOE said:


> If God is, doesn't it make sense that She's WAY bigger than *all* of the Ancient Stories put together, let alone any one of them?
> 
> Google Search: Books considered 'Holy'
> 
> Is your preferred Ancient Story really the LAST word on God?  Really?



Okay children.  Let's drag the train back onto the tracks here.   Actually AVG-JOE presented us with a really interesting thesis.

I've always looked at the ancient stories as the explanation or interpretation or struggles to understand God, G-D, YHWH, or by whatever name is assigned to a supreme being.  Ancient peoples were limited in understanding by their personal experience, language, and human intellect, but a careful chronological study of the manuscripts edited into what we call The Old Testament alone will show a people evolving in an understanding of who they were, who YHWH was, and what YHWH required, expected, or wanted of them.

For us Christians, those stories evolve and continue seamlessly into the New Testament, which in my opinion cannot be understood without a good grounding in the Old.

But did any of those ancient ones or have any modern theologicans or philosophers figured it all out?  I don't think so.  The Apostle Paul described our understand as looking through a dark glass.  And Christians believe the day will come when we will be free and will see and understand perfectly.   I am guessing we will all be really surprised about a lot of things at that time.


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## there4eyeM (Aug 19, 2012)

We seem to forget that words are human inventions and evolve, change and morph with time. We also forget that past progress creates new psychological as well as social contexts and conditions. Thus, many times things said in the past seem to make different sense today, such as the use of creator instead of God  in the Declaration for example.
The best we can do with the Old Testament stories is to use them metaphorically. Much of its contents has little to do with us otherwise. Whatever they meant in their time may never be fully known.
In any case, human choice outweighs dead laws when that is what they are found to be.


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## Listening (Aug 19, 2012)

uscitizen said:


> Listening said:
> 
> 
> > LoneLaugher said:
> ...



Horsehockey.

If LL climbed on a plane to a place she'd never seen before, she'd be trusting in something.

It very much applies.

Is this how you have so many posts.....?  Stupid little one word turds ?


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## AVG-JOE (Aug 23, 2012)

there4eyeM said:


> We seem to forget that words are human inventions and evolve, change and morph with time. We also forget that past progress creates new psychological as well as social contexts and conditions. Thus, many times things said in the past seem to make different sense today, such as the use of creator instead of God  in the Declaration for example.
> The best we can do with the Old Testament stories is to use them metaphorically. Much of its contents has little to do with us otherwise. Whatever they meant in their time may never be fully known.
> In any case, human choice outweighs dead laws when that is what they are found to be.





			
				John in The Bible said:
			
		

> ...and The Word was God.



The Word is God.

The written word.  Have you any idea what a game changer the simple preservation of the documentation of life was? 

Maybe what makes the stories special, not only the ancient writings of the Jews but also the Christians and Muslims, both of whom claim connection to the truly ancient writings through the Jews, is that they are the oldest documentation of what became the feelings of Western Civilization on the subject of 'God', and history is written by the victors not the vanquished.

To be sure, the ancient writings of other cultures survived Western conquest, most are revered as the basis for most of the religions that survived.  Coincidence?

If 'The Word' is God then the Internet is going to be one Holy ride into Sentience.  

Exciting times, eh?


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## Foxfyre (Aug 23, 2012)

there4eyeM said:


> We seem to forget that words are human inventions and evolve, change and morph with time. We also forget that past progress creates new psychological as well as social contexts and conditions. Thus, many times things said in the past seem to make different sense today, such as the use of creator instead of God  in the Declaration for example.
> The best we can do with the Old Testament stories is to use them metaphorically. Much of its contents has little to do with us otherwise. Whatever they meant in their time may never be fully known.
> In any case, human choice outweighs dead laws when that is what they are found to be.



I think that it isn't that the laws are 'dead' so much as we understand them differently in the 21st century.  Sometimes it is unfortunate that the Old Testament manuscripts were organized and edited together in the way they are as the text is so often out of chronological order to the point it is difficult to make sense of it.  But if through dedicated and competent Bible study we are able to put it back into chronological order, we see the people evolving, changing, and understanding differently as the centuries pass.   Some universal truths remain engraved in granite.  And others give way to more enlightened understandings.   The God of love shown to us by Jesus is the same G-d but seen in a very different way than was the Old Testament G-d.

Take the Semitic cultural taboo on eating pork for instance.  Though the larger teaching was to accept Cornelius, the gentile, as a Christian, we see in Acts 10:9-16 a presumed lifting of at least some of the kosher laws:

Peters Vision 

9 About noon the following day as they were on their journey and approaching the city, Peter went up on the roof to pray. 10 He became hungry and wanted something to eat, and while the meal was being prepared, he fell into a trance. 11 He saw heaven opened and something like a large sheet being let down to earth by its four corners. 12 It contained all kinds of four-footed animals, as well as reptiles and birds. 13 Then a voice told him, Get up, Peter. Kill and eat.

14 Surely not, Lord! Peter replied. I have never eaten anything impure or unclean. 

15 The voice spoke to him a second time, Do not call anything impure that God has made clean. 

16 This happened three times, and immediately the sheet was taken back to heaven.​
So why a taboo on pork in the Old Testament?   We have all been taught the dangers of eating undercooked pork that is never to be served in any way but well done.  During much of the Old Testament, the ancient Jews were a nomadic people who would not have had the time or means to properly cure pork or cook it safely.  So a taboo on pork made perfect sense.   For kosher Jews and most other Semitic people today, it remains unacceptable.  And who knows?  Maybe we would all be better off not eating some things.  Certainly there is nothing inherently unhealthy in a Jewish kosher diet.


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## Borillar (Aug 23, 2012)

Foxfyre said:


> there4eyeM said:
> 
> 
> > We seem to forget that words are human inventions and evolve, change and morph with time. We also forget that past progress creates new psychological as well as social contexts and conditions. Thus, many times things said in the past seem to make different sense today, such as the use of creator instead of God  in the Declaration for example.
> ...



My understanding as a Christian is that the OT dietary laws were only binding upon the Jews as part of God's covenant. Christians have a new covenant, established by Christ, and the old laws are no longer binding. Happy that that is the case, as I do enjoy lobster, pork chops, ham, bacon, and sausage.


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## AVG-JOE (Aug 23, 2012)

And Cheeseburgers.  Don't forget Cheeseburgers


Bacon Cheeseburgers.  Yum.


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## Foxfyre (Aug 23, 2012)

LOL.  By all means the Wendy's Baconator is an amazing invention.  

But again it is a matter of the human race, most especially those who consider themselves among the 'chosen ones', evolving in understanding over the centuries, even the millenia that their stories have been recorded.  If Christians see themselves as continuing the story, and many of us do see ourselves that way, it is only natural that our own understandings of what God has done for us and what God expects of us would evolve over the centuries too just as it did for the ancient ones.


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## Jackson (Aug 25, 2012)

occupied said:


> Can't decide if I am an atheist or just incredibly pissed of at God. I can't accept that any God that gives a damn about us would allow what happened to a woman as selflessly giving and widely adored as my mother, she died after long and horrible suffering, can't forgive him/her/it for that, easier to just consider the universe empty and meaninglessly chaotic.



These are hard questions.  But there are answers,  some don't come for many years.  Sometimes it comes with wisdom.  In my personal life I had a similar question and the answer came long after my prayers I thought were unanswered.


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## Foxfyre (Aug 25, 2012)

Jackson said:


> occupied said:
> 
> 
> > Can't decide if I am an atheist or just incredibly pissed of at God. I can't accept that any God that gives a damn about us would allow what happened to a woman as selflessly giving and widely adored as my mother, she died after long and horrible suffering, can't forgive him/her/it for that, easier to just consider the universe empty and meaninglessly chaotic.
> ...



Yes, the scenario Occupied relates is one of the very toughest and most unanswerable difficiulties the human animal has to deal with.  How could a loving God have allowed the terrible massacres, tortures, Jewish internment camps, other unspeakable atrocitiies, and our own loved ones to suffer so?  And amidst it all many of us have witnessed unbelievable healings, amazing miracles, and unexplained kindnesses.

The Holy Spirit seems to make us wait for many answers and obviously some things are simply beyong our comprehension.  But somewhere in there is an assurance that our loved ones who have passed on are all just fine and we'll be clued in on the unknowable soon enough.   And I think God is okay with the anger directed at Him as it seems to be necessary in the grief process.


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## AVG-JOE (Aug 25, 2012)

Do any of y'all mind if I live THIS life like it's the only one I get?


It's the only one I know for sure.


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## AVG-JOE (Aug 27, 2012)

If God is, and She's mad at me, She has Her shot today.  I'm smack dab in the middle of one of those feeder bands currently dragging north along the Treasure Coast of FL.


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## Foxfyre (Aug 27, 2012)

AVG-JOE said:


> If God is, and She's mad at me, She has Her shot today.  I'm smack dab in the middle of one of those feeder bands currently dragging north along the Treasure Coast of FL.



   Somertimes the fury of the storm has been interpreted as the heavenly powers making their presence known.   But a study of meterology also shows the role tropical storms and hurricanes have in making important redistributions of environmental components.  (Has been too long since I read up on that to allow much scientific technicality there.)

What is the purpose of big hail, tornadoes, drought, etc.?  I don't pretend to know, but I do know that the creatures of the Earth have been able to adapt and adjust or re-create themselves to deal with changing environmental scenarios and that would suggest that we humans are also expected to do that.  Maybe if we were more in tune with God we wouldn't do so much futile experimentation and would be better at reading and adjusting to natural climate shifts, etc.

Biut on a more practical note, you're getting weather that Florida gets now and then for much longer than the current genration has lived, and we in the southwest stuck in what seems like an interminable drought are envying you all that lovely rain.  

And God is probably shaking his head at both us for thinking the current situation is anything other than the way it is supposed to be.


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## Borillar (Aug 27, 2012)

Foxfyre said:


> AVG-JOE said:
> 
> 
> > If God is, and She's mad at me, She has Her shot today.  I'm smack dab in the middle of one of those feeder bands currently dragging north along the Treasure Coast of FL.
> ...



I wonder if Pat Robertson thinks the current tropical storm / hurricane weather hitting Tampa is God's judgement of Republican policies?


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## Foxfyre (Aug 27, 2012)

Borillar said:


> Foxfyre said:
> 
> 
> > AVG-JOE said:
> ...



No clue, nor am I much interested in what Pat Robertson thinks about the tropical storm.  I do know that it is irrelevent to this thread which has been a good thread and I would like to keep it that way.


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## Avatar4321 (Aug 27, 2012)

Borillar said:


> I wonder if Pat Robertson thinks the current tropical storm / hurricane weather hitting Tampa is God's judgement of Republican policies?



Wouldn't it have to _hit_ Tampa for it to be God's judgment against Republican policies? If we are using this reasoning, shouldn't the fact that it didn't hit Tampa say the exact opposite?


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## AVG-JOE (Aug 28, 2012)

I suppose that would depend on the overall disruption level when it's all said and done.

Maybe God likes some kid in Tampa so she'll be satisfied just trickling down on the republican party without wiping out the whole town.


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## uscitizen (Aug 28, 2012)

Naah I don't live in Tampa anymore.


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## Freedomlover (Aug 28, 2012)

Do you know that scientists have discovered that the human cell has the same pattern of its parts orbiting around a central core just as a galaxy does? Interesting isn't it? Random? I don't think so.


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