# Ottawa wont back Obamas Mideast peace proposal



## Ropey (May 20, 2011)

> The Harper government is refusing to join the United States in calling for a return to 1967 borders as a starting point for Mideast peace, a position that has drawn sharp criticism from Canadas staunch ally Israel.
> 
> At a briefing ahead of the upcoming G8 summit in France, federal officials said the basis for the negotiations must be mutually agreed upon.







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> What the government of Canada supports is basically a two-state solution that is negotiated, a senior federal official said. If its border, if its others issues, it has to be negotiated, it cannot be unilateral action.
> 
> Pressed by reporters, federal officials said both the Israelis and the Palestinians have to decide on their bottom lines, which the Israelis have said will not include a return to the 1967 border.
> 
> ...



http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/ottawa-wont-back-obamas-mideast-peace-proposal/article2030146/

Until the Arab public is deprogrammed from their generations of Jew hatred, peace is not possible. so the Palestinians will have a state. Hamas will still Nate the Jews. They will still launch rockets, send bombers, and employ every dirty trick to hurt or kill as many Israelis as possible.


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## High_Gravity (May 20, 2011)

Returning to the 1967 borders is a bad idea especially when you have groups like Hamas running the show, that would be a huge victory and boost Hamas.


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## Ravi (May 20, 2011)

Because Hamas will continue to be terrorists nothing should be done?


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## Epsilon Delta (May 20, 2011)

Ropey said:


> > The Harper government is refusing to join the United States in calling for a return to 1967 borders as a starting point for Mideast peace, a position that has drawn sharp criticism from Canadas staunch ally Israel.
> >
> > At a briefing ahead of the upcoming G8 summit in France, federal officials said the basis for the negotiations must be mutually agreed upon.
> 
> ...





High_Gravity said:


> Returning to the 1967 borders is a bad idea especially when you have groups like Hamas running the show, that would be a huge victory and boost Hamas.



Well, then it's clear: Israel must kill every man, woman, and child in Palestine because there won't be any peace, because every Palestinian is a Hamas terrorist.  

What do you guys suggest, nuking Gaza and the West Bank? I mean, trains and chambers being so passé nowadays, not to mention expensive...


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## RetiredGySgt (May 20, 2011)

Ravi said:


> Because Hamas will continue to be terrorists nothing should be done?



So long as the supposed Government of "Palestine" is run by terrorists with a stated goal of destroying Israel we should have no dealings with that entity. Or did you miss the part where we do not negotiate with terrorists?


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## Ravi (May 20, 2011)

RetiredGySgt said:


> Ravi said:
> 
> 
> > Because Hamas will continue to be terrorists nothing should be done?
> ...


No one is suggesting we negotiate with Hamas.


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## RetiredGySgt (May 20, 2011)

Epsilon Delta said:


> Ropey said:
> 
> 
> > > The Harper government is refusing to join the United States in calling for a return to 1967 borders as a starting point for Mideast peace, a position that has drawn sharp criticism from Canadas staunch ally Israel.
> ...



So tired of this canard. Israel has had 63 years of TOTAL control of these Arabs, if she really wanted to kill them all or evict them all, it would have been done LONG ago.


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## High_Gravity (May 20, 2011)

Epsilon Delta said:


> Ropey said:
> 
> 
> > > The Harper government is refusing to join the United States in calling for a return to 1967 borders as a starting point for Mideast peace, a position that has drawn sharp criticism from Canadas staunch ally Israel.
> ...



If Israels goal was to eliminate the Palestinians, they could easily do it. Instead, the Palestinian population is growing.


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## High_Gravity (May 20, 2011)

Ravi said:


> Because Hamas will continue to be terrorists nothing should be done?



Israel cannot be forced to negociate with an organization that wants them dead, it says right in the Hamas charter they do not recognize the Israelis right to exist.


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## Ravi (May 20, 2011)

High_Gravity said:


> Ravi said:
> 
> 
> > Because Hamas will continue to be terrorists nothing should be done?
> ...


Again, no one is asking Israel to negotiate with Hamas. Quite the opposite.


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## GHook93 (May 20, 2011)

Ravi said:


> Because Hamas will continue to be terrorists nothing should be done?



Who says nothing should be done! Not many people here. Rather realities on the ground need to be considered. Including important thinks for the Palestinians including a land bridge between Gaza and the West Bank


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## GHook93 (May 20, 2011)

Epsilon Delta said:


> Ropey said:
> 
> 
> > > The Harper government is refusing to join the United States in calling for a return to 1967 borders as a starting point for Mideast peace, a position that has drawn sharp criticism from Canadas staunch ally Israel.
> ...



Only a mental midget like you would interpret it that way. Rather, Ottowa is saying that a 2 state solution is a MUST, but borders and everything else has to be negotiated between the Israelis and Palestinians!


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## GHook93 (May 20, 2011)

Ravi said:


> RetiredGySgt said:
> 
> 
> > Ravi said:
> ...



They are the government. They rule over Gaza. They formed an UNITITY government with the PLO/Fatah!


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## Ravi (May 20, 2011)

GHook93 said:


> Ravi said:
> 
> 
> > RetiredGySgt said:
> ...


And yet both Benny and Obama said the Palestinians should reject Hamas.

I am not sure continuing on with the status quo is going to accomplish anything but more years of no peace.


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## Epsilon Delta (May 20, 2011)

RetiredGySgt said:


> [So tired of this canard. Israel has had 63 years of TOTAL control of these Arabs, if she really wanted to kill them all or evict them all, it would have been done LONG ago.





High_Gravity said:


> If Israels goal was to eliminate the Palestinians, they could easily do it. Instead, the Palestinian population is growing.



C'mon, guys. I know NEITHER OF YOU smart fellas is as naive as you're letting on with these responses. I know that such esteemed posters like yourselves are not claiming that Israel _hasn't _been forcibly evicting Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza since 1967, and continues to do so to this day. 

Palestinian couple evicted from home of half a century as Jerusalem settlers move in | World news | guardian.co.uk

"Palestinians have long argued that evictions and demolitions are an attempt by Israel to reduce the number of Palestinians in east Jerusalem to allow settlement expansion and to pre-judge a final status peace agreement."

U.S. condemns eviction of Arab families from East Jerusalem - Haaretz Daily Newspaper | Israel News

"A large force of several hundred police officers evicted the two families from their homes in the early Sunday morning. Hours later the families' possessions were cleared from the homes and two Jewish families moved in."

UN relief chief urges end to Israeli policies of evictions and demolitions

"The top United Nations humanitarian official today urged Israel to end its evictions policy after visiting communities in East Jerusalem where residents have been forced from their homes to make way for Israeli settlements, even as other residents face the prospect of having their houses and schools demolished."

And well, killing them, that's a more complicated issue, it kills 'em every now and again directly, 

Gaza War - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia [look under "Casualties"]

Israel - Total Killed: 13 [Inc. 4 from friendly fire]
Israel - Total Wounded: 518
Gaza - Total Killed: 1,417
Gaza - Total Wounded: 5,303

The problem is of course, it has to do kill 'em indirectly most of the time, cuz to put them in trains and gas chambers might hit a bit too close to home. So, instead, it just locks an area with 1.5 million Palestinians and doesn't let anything come in or out, as well as massively restricting any growth in industry and hence employment in the West Bank. It's a strategy of making life miserable for Palestinians so that they leave. 

But don't believe me, I'm just a "radical socialist anti-semite", but is the World Bank a radical socialist anti-semite institution too??

http://siteresources.worldbank.org/...trictedAccesstoLandintheWestBankOct.21.08.pdf



			
				World Bank said:
			
		

> Yet, due to the particular political situation of the West Bank, Palestinians are denied economic and even physical access to a large share of that land.  Thus, land scarcity in the West Bank is more artificial than real. [...] With few exceptions, national space is generally contiguous. This is not the case today in the West Bank and Gaza which is split into the two geographically separate areas of the West Bank and Gaza Strip, and in which the West Bank is further fragmented into a multitude of enclaves, with a regime of movement restrictions between them. [...] While illegal under international law 9, since the military occupation in 1967 Israel has established numerous settlements in the West Bank with a growing population of Israeli settlers (an estimated 461,000 in 2007). 10 They are heavily concentrated in and around East. Jerusalem (estimated at 57% of the settler population) 11, progressively encircling the city, and socially and economically isolating its quarter million Palestinians from the rest of the West Bank. [...]  With an estimated net average annual rate of 3.44% between 2003-2007, the growth rate of the settler population is nearly double that of the overall Israeli population during the same period (1.79%) 12. Furthermore, the land set aside  for the future expansion of the settlements surpasses by an even larger extent the needs of the fast growing settler population.



But hey, what the fuck does the World Bank know about anything? Obviously Israel wants peace with the Palestinians and a two-state solution. It's just the Palestinians that are bad. Henceforth, the answer is to kill every single Palestinians. You guys agree, right? 

I think you guys and Mr. Steve Harper will agree with me: Israel's been too lenient, Hamas is a terrorist organization, Palestinians voted for Hamas, therefore all Palestinians are terrorists, and hence, Israel has a right to kill or evict each and every Palestinian. Do you guys agree with this statement? 



GHook93 said:


> Only a mental midget like you would interpret it that way. Rather, Ottowa is saying that a 2 state solution is a MUST, but borders and everything else has to be negotiated between the Israelis and Palestinians!



G, I know exactly what the Harper government is saying, and I know you very much agree with their position: The status quo is perfectly good. Israelis cannot be expected to concede on anything, and Palestinians don't really have anything left to concede. Therefore, the status quo is fine, Israel should continue to build settlements in the West Bank and Gaza by evicting Palestinians and confiscating land. Israel needs lebensrau- whoops, I mean a "security zone", to deal with "security threats from the East." So "negotiations" must continue, because as long as they continue, Israel can keep putting its population into the land in negotiation. This works well for everyone, or rather, everyone in Israel, but that's what really matters anyway, so it's ok.


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## Epsilon Delta (May 21, 2011)

So there I was, considering this thread to be effectively defunct, when I get this little neg-rep easter egg for my post above:



			
				GHook93 said:
			
		

> Your a lying ******!



Telling, GHook. Very telling.


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## LAfrique (May 23, 2011)

Palestine and other Middle Easterners never accepted whatever deal was in 1967 or in the Balfour Treaty, which is why these Arabs have been resisting and will continue to resist. It was wrong of imperialist Great Britain and allies to take land from natives and give to immigrants. You know this was a sure recipe for unrest. 

And while Israel (which I no longer support, after re-reading Genesis 15: 18-21 and analyzing the nature of God) continues to rely on man for a homeland, without Holy texts, the nation Israel does not exist! Israel is a dynasty and the nation Israel is merely the creation of Holy texts.

I wish we would simply relocate Israel elsewhere and away from the Middle East. As long as Israel continues to unjustly occupy and annex belonging to others, Israel will forever face fierce and just opposition.


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## Ropey (May 24, 2011)

> Canada&#8217;s Harper will not support Obama&#8217;s Auschwitz lines for Israel





> Fresh off a smashing victory in Canadian elections, conservative Stephen Harper, the only pro-Israel Western leader left in the world, has said he will not support Obama&#8217;s insane demands for Israel to retreat to the indefensible &#8217;67 borders, which are really the &#8217;49 armistice borders. Harper has long been a good friend of Israel&#8217;s. Maybe we can find him a Hawaiin birth certificate and run him on the Republican ticket?





> The Harper government is refusing to join the United States in calling for a return to 1967 borders as a starting point for Mideast peace, a position that has drawn sharp criticism from Canada&#8217;s staunch ally Israel.
> 
> At a briefing ahead of the upcoming G8 summit in France, federal officials said the basis for the negotiations must be mutually agreed upon.
> 
> ...





> Dershowitz: Obama seriously hurt Israeli-Palestinian peace process



YouTube - &#x202a;Dershowitz: Obama Seriously Hurt Israeli-Palestinian Peace Process&#x202c;&rlm;



> President Barack Obama put himself ahead of the Palestinians in his Mideast speech and setback negotiations considerably, says Alan Dershowitz, Harvard law professor and staunch advocate for Israel. In a Newsmax.TV video, Dershowitz also explained why Obama&#8217;s speech wasn&#8217;t good for the United States, either.





> UK Guardian: Obama to press PM Cameron to back Auschwitz lines for Israel





> The Leftwing, anti-Israel Guardian rag says that Barack Obama will seek a joint Middle East agreement with David Cameron, insisting that a Palestinian state should be based on pre-1967 borders. The paper says that the issue will be raised in private talks between the two men during the state visit by Obama and his wife to London.



Canada stands with Israel whilst others have different agendas and regardless, Canada does not support Obama with regards to his view on Israel.

Canada sees his attempt to undermine Israel.


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## Ravi (May 24, 2011)

> Canadas Harper will not support Obamas Auschwitz lines for Israel


What a fucking dbag to say such a thing. If only I could neg him.


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## Ropey (May 24, 2011)

Ravi said:


> > Canada&#8217;s Harper will not support Obama&#8217;s Auschwitz lines for Israel
> 
> 
> What a fucking dbag to say such a thing. If only I could neg him.



It's an opinion piece. Neg him for his view? He believes that Obama is attempting to undermine Israel's security. I think he is allowed to have his view. There's a lot of Arab views out there who want the entire country and every Jew living there killed. 



> _"It doesn't matter what the world says about Israel. The only thing that matters to Israel is that Jews can exist here on the land of our forefathers. And unless we show the Arabs that there is a high price to pay for murdering Jews, we won't survive."_
> 
> ~ David Ben-Gurion ~ (For context, this was Ben-Gurion's advice to a young Ariel Sharon).



I  fought in the seventy-three war and I am old enough to remember the Six Day War and the Yom Kippor War. I am old enough to remember Moshe Dayan, and Ariel Sharon.

They knew what they were fighting for and it was very clear. It was their very survival, and existence.

They still do and those they fight against would like to kill them all. For over sixty years this has been so and Israel will not even start to negotiate with anyone who has the destruction of the country as their main raison d'etre.  Which is based on what happened in Auschwitz. It's not as though Muslims do not know how to commit genocide in the modern era. Turks killed off the Armenians and are murdering off the Kurds as I pen this. Christians and Jews are being killed in EVERY one of the 57 Muslim countries as I pen this. 

But when someone talks about Hamas demand for Auschwitz (destruction of all Jews), this is not clear? 

Have you read their charter. Their reason for living?

Yet Obama wants to go back to untenable lines which accounted for the Arab instigated wars on Israel in the first place? He knows that he strengthens the lines and wavers Israel's defense in that strengthening of the lines for the Arabs.



> Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it" (The Martyr, Imam Hassan al-Banna, of blessed memory)





> *Hamas's Slogan*
> 
> Allah is its target, the Prophet is its model, the Koran its constitution: Jihad is its path and death for the sake of Allah is the loftiest of its wishes. (Article 8)





> Extracts taken from the translation of the Hamas Covenant 1988 provided by the Avalon Project of Yale Law School.





> Anti-Semitism in the Hamas Charter: Selected Excerpts
> 
> Posted: May 13, 2011
> 
> ...



The Hamas Charter: extracts - Times Online

http://www.terrorism-info.org.il/malam_multimedia/English/eng_n/pdf/hamas_charter.pdf

Do you  think they want the boundaries to be based on what gives them the ability to continue the fight AFTER they have another (58th) Muslim country against Israel?

Mutually agreed swaps does not mean a change of borders. It means that there will be swapping of land within those borders. I would say that I think that's not happening.

Obama seriously failed in his attempt and he was clear. Far too clear for his own good. He clarified that the swaps were not part of the 67 border and that the 67 border was the basis. The swaps of land would be inside both borders leaving the 67 to stand.

And I personally doubt he will get another chance to dummy down Israel's security. Every Jew who understands the middle east now understands Obama's agenda. 



> Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it



^^ Clarified now.


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## Ropey (May 24, 2011)

> Anti-Semitism in the Hamas Charter: Selected Excerpts
> 
> Posted: May 13, 2011
> 
> ...



Against the Jews. Not against Israel alone, but all Jews worldwide. 

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QWxQS81gXeI]Hamas: In Their Own Voices - Death to Jews and America[/ame]

Let's stick with the facts.


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