# Homeschooling On The Rise??



## PoliticalChic

I have been following the numbers of homeschoolers.....

1. "Data from the *1999 NHES showed an estimated 850,000 homeschooled students* in the United States—about 1.7 percent of the school-age population (Bielick, Chandler, and Broughman 2001). The increase in the homeschooling rate (from 1.7 percent in 1999 to 2.2 percent in 2003 to 2.9 percent in 2007) represents a 74 percent relative increase over the 8-year period and a 36 percent relative increase since 2003."
http://nces.ed.gov/pubs2009/2009030.pdf

That was published in 2009.



Now this:


2. "In North Carolina, the number of homeschoolers has now surpassed the number of students attending private schools....the homeschooling movement, which has rapidly increased in recent decades.

3. In *1973, there were approximately 13,000 children, *ages 5 to 17, being homeschooled in the United States. ... as of the 2011-2012 school year,* that number has grown to almost 1.8 million* or approximately* 3.4 percent of the school age population.* Other sources report numbers well over 2 million.




4. In the Tar Heel state alone, homeschooling has increased by 27 percent over the past two years.

5. ....pretty impressive numbers for a movement considered “fringe” not that long ago and that has only been legal in all 50 states since 1996.




6. The *Department of Education, which surely isn’t happy with the trend,* has tracked the issue since 2003. According to its findings:


In 2003, 85 percent of parents said they chose homeschooling because of “a concern about *the school environment*” which included worry about safety, drugs or negative peer pressure. That number jumped to 91 percent by 2011.

In 2003, 72 percent said “a desire to provide *religious or moral instruction” *was a major reason. In 2011, that number had increased to 77 percent.

In 2003, 68 percent said “*dissatisfaction with academic instruction* at other schools” contributed to their decision. By 2011, that was up to 74 percent.
7. ...my guess is when the figures are reported related to the past two years you’ll see the number of parents citing “dissatisfaction with academic instruction” spike with the growing uprising against Common Core and national standards. 





8. ....the public education establishment don’t find homeschooling up to their standards. The National Education Association, the country’s largest teacher’s union,declared in a 2011 resolution: “The National Education Association believes that homeschooling programs based on *parental choice cannot provide the student with a comprehensive education experience.”*




9. ....*the actual results from homeschooling. *According to Education News:
Recent studies laud homeschoolers’ *academic success, noting their significantly higher ACT-Composite scores as high schoolers and higher grade point averages as college students.* 


10. Yet surprisingly, the average expenditure for the education of a homeschooled child, per year, is $500 to $600, compared to an average expenditure of $10,000 per child, per year, for public school students.
What is not calculated in the cost line above for homeschooling is the time spent by a parent teaching."
In One State More Children Homeschool Than Attend Private Schools.





What is not mentioned, as well, is the decision by homeschool parents to have children more like themselves, rather than the mind-numbed automatons that government schools turn out.


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## Gadawg73

Having coached over 50 rec teams over a 20 year span I had a lot of home schooled kids. My thoughts and experience with them are the majority are far ahead of the public schools in all areas of academic study, especially in math, science and reading. I had a few that were just the opposite. Some parents keep their kids out of the public schools because they believe the kids are being taught things that are opposite what their religion teaches and then go to the extreme on it. I had one kid in particular that was an all star football player. Neighborhood kid with a mother gone nuts on religion. Home "schooled" from an on line course I do not know how got approved here but this is the Bible Belt. "Gary" was a good kid but sheltered and was as dumb as a brick academically because his mother did not really care as long as Gary did not have to go to the evil school and be indoctrinated. Real story was she was sheltering Gary and could care less about his education. Tens of thousands of home schooled kids are this way. Gary eventually got away from his mother as his parents divorced and the father took him. He went to the high school and excelled after a few years on and off the football field. We have had a real problem with their court fights also wanting use after hours of all public school facilities such as sports fields, chemistry lab, libraries, etc. and have won every fight. The lack of social interaction often hurts these kids but I see them as a whole far better educated out of high school than the norm and that, after all is said is done, is the most important thing. Academics is where it is at and even more so now if you do play ball because few colleges and universities want to waste an academic scholarship on someone that will not be eligible the next year.


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## PoliticalChic

Gadawg73 said:


> Having coached over 50 rec teams over a 20 year span I had a lot of home schooled kids. My thoughts and experience with them are the majority are far ahead of the public schools in all areas of academic study, especially in math, science and reading. I had a few that were just the opposite. Some parents keep their kids out of the public schools because they believe the kids are being taught things that are opposite what their religion teaches and then go to the extreme on it. I had one kid in particular that was an all star football player. Neighborhood kid with a mother gone nuts on religion. Home "schooled" from an on line course I do not know how got approved here but this is the Bible Belt. "Gary" was a good kid but sheltered and was as dumb as a brick academically because his mother did not really care as long as Gary did not have to go to the evil school and be indoctrinated. Real story was she was sheltering Gary and could care less about his education. Tens of thousands of home schooled kids are this way. Gary eventually got away from his mother as his parents divorced and the father took him. He went to the high school and excelled after a few years on and off the football field. We have had a real problem with their court fights also wanting use after hours of all public school facilities such as sports fields, chemistry lab, libraries, etc. and have won every fight. The lack of social interaction often hurts these kids but I see them as a whole far better educated out of high school than the norm and that, after all is said is done, is the most important thing. Academics is where it is at and even more so now if you do play ball because few colleges and universities want to waste an academic scholarship on someone that will not be eligible the next year.





We've used several on line course....I really like Bill Bennett's  "K12.com"


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## Mad Scientist

This "story" of abused home schoolers with no social skills as been going on for a long time and I don't believe it. Stupid Americans need to stop protecting a failed organization. If WalMart sold a sh*tty product you'd be returning it the same day but if yer kid fails tests you say nothing. Not a f*ckin' thing.

Who wins the Scrips Spelling Bees every year? It aint the kid from PS 128 in Noo Yawk. (No offense intended PC)


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## ogibillm

idiots raising idiots. hooray.


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## Mad Scientist

You don't need Public Schools to learn Social Skills in fact, I'd say Public Schools just mess kids up. After school I participated in Sports and Social Clubs with NO affiliation to Public Schools and I did just fine. So did Millions of other kids.


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## PoliticalChic

ogibillm said:


> idiots raising idiots. hooray.




You've just catapulted into the idiot category.


"Drawing from 15 independent testing services, the _Progress Report 2009: Homeschool Academic Achievement and Demographics_ included 11,739 homeschooled students from all 50 states who took three well-known tests—_California Achievement Test_, _Iowa Tests of Basic Skills_, and _Stanford Achievement Test_ for the 2007–08 academic year. The _Progress Report_ is the most comprehensive homeschool academic study ever completed.

*The Results*

Overall the study showed *significant advances in homeschool academic achievement as well as revealing that issues such as student gender, parents’ education level, and family income had little bearing on the results of homeschooled students. *



*National Average Percentile Scores*

*Subtest*

*Homeschool*

*Public School*

Reading

89

50

Language

84

50

Math

84

50

Science

86

50

Social Studies

84

50

Corea

88

50

Compositeb

86

50

a. Core is a combination of Reading, Language, and Math.
b. Composite is a combination of all subtests that the student took on the test."
HSLDA New Nationwide Study Confirms Homeschool Academic Achievement



You feel stoooooopid?

[TBODY]
[/TBODY]


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## Katzndogz

Lack of social interaction is libspeak for refusal to use drugs.


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## ogibillm

PoliticalChic said:


> ogibillm said:
> 
> 
> 
> idiots raising idiots. hooray.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You've just catapulted into the idiot category.
> 
> 
> "Drawing from 15 independent testing services, the _Progress Report 2009: Homeschool Academic Achievement and Demographics_ included 11,739 homeschooled students from all 50 states who took three well-known tests—_California Achievement Test_, _Iowa Tests of Basic Skills_, and _Stanford Achievement Test_ for the 2007–08 academic year. The _Progress Report_ is the most comprehensive homeschool academic study ever completed.
> 
> *The Results*
> 
> Overall the study showed *significant advances in homeschool academic achievement as well as revealing that issues such as student gender, parents’ education level, and family income had little bearing on the results of homeschooled students. *
> 
> 
> *National Average Percentile Scores**Subtest**Homeschool**Public School*Reading8950Language8450Math8450Science8650Social Studies8450Corea8850Compositeb8650a. Core is a combination of Reading, Language, and Math.
> b. Composite is a combination of all subtests that the student took on the test."
> HSLDA New Nationwide Study Confirms Homeschool Academic Achievement
> 
> 
> 
> You feel stoooooopid?
> [TBODY]
> [/TBODY]
Click to expand...

do you understand what a percentile is?
i have no doubt that home schooling works for some people, and that their children do well. although those parents with the time and resources to truly home school correctly would have the time and resources to make sure their children are doing well and receiving a good education if their children attended public schools.

my main concern is that not every parent is equipped to be a teacher. for instance, i took calculus classes in high school. my parents are smart people, with advanced degrees, but neither of them could teach me calculus. I could teach my child calculus, but I don't have sufficient skills in the language arts to teach them well.

and knowledge aside, if you're keeping your kids out of schools because you want to indoctrinate them and avoid exposing them to other ideas you're an idiot, no matter how well your child scores academically.


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## Mad Scientist

Thanks PC! That graph shows that the average stay at home Mom or Dad is a better Teacher than the average Public School Teacher can EVER be.


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## AquaAthena

Mad Scientist said:


> This "story" of abused home schoolers with no social skills as been going on for a long time and I don't believe it. Stupid Americans need to stop protecting a failed organization. If WalMart sold a sh*tty product you'd be returning it the same day but if yer kid fails tests you say nothing. Not a f*ckin' thing.
> 
> Who wins the Scrips Spelling Bees every year? It aint the kid from PS 128 in Noo Yawk. (No offense intended PC)


Agreed. All home schooled kids I have met have regular social interactions with other kids through sports, music lessons and other events their parents see to it they are involved in. I am SO impressed with the kids and their manners and grace. They were born unto some dedicated and unselfish parents.


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## AquaAthena

Katzndogz said:


> Lack of social interaction is libspeak for refusal to use drugs.


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## ogibillm

Mad Scientist said:


> Thanks PC! That graph shows that the average stay at home Mom or Dad is a better Teacher than the average Public School Teacher can EVER be.


no, it doesn't. 

see, this is why i worry about homeschooling.


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## TheOldSchool

There are many resources out there today that make homeschooling a great option for lots of families.  As mentioned above the K12 curriculum is really good.  My organization works with several homeschooled children and it is our main resource.


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## ogibillm

TheOldSchool said:


> There are many resources out there today that make homeschooling a great option for lots of families.  As mentioned above the K12 curriculum is really good.  My organization works with several homeschooled children and it is our main resource.


there are good resources out there now, i don't disagree. but again, there's no reason those resources couldn't be used with kids in public schools to supplement or enhance their education.


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## Mad Scientist

ogibillm said:


> Mad Scientist said:
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks PC! That graph shows that the average stay at home Mom or Dad is a better Teacher than the average Public School Teacher can EVER be.
> 
> 
> 
> no, it doesn't.
> see, this is why i worry about homeschooling.
Click to expand...

Don't just Complain. *Explain.*

By the way I was Public Schooled so you'll have to *really dumb it down* for me!


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## Mad Scientist

ogibillm said:


> there are good resources out there now, i don't disagree. but again, *there's no reason those resources couldn't be used with kids in public schools* to supplement or enhance their education.


I can think of two: Teachers wouldn't understand it.
Teachers Unions.

Also, are you admitting that Public School needs "Supplementation or Enhancement?". It *ISN'T* Perfect?


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## TheOldSchool

ogibillm said:


> TheOldSchool said:
> 
> 
> 
> There are many resources out there today that make homeschooling a great option for lots of families.  As mentioned above the K12 curriculum is really good.  My organization works with several homeschooled children and it is our main resource.
> 
> 
> 
> there are good resources out there now, i don't disagree. but again, there's no reason those resources couldn't be used with kids in public schools to supplement or enhance their education.
Click to expand...


Sure there is.  You can't give a kid one on one attention all the time in Public School.


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## ogibillm

TheOldSchool said:


> ogibillm said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> TheOldSchool said:
> 
> 
> 
> There are many resources out there today that make homeschooling a great option for lots of families.  As mentioned above the K12 curriculum is really good.  My organization works with several homeschooled children and it is our main resource.
> 
> 
> 
> there are good resources out there now, i don't disagree. but again, there's no reason those resources couldn't be used with kids in public schools to supplement or enhance their education.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Sure there is.  You can't give a kid one on one attention all the time in Public School.
Click to expand...

no, you can't. but a child isn't in school 24/7 either.


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## ogibillm

Mad Scientist said:


> ogibillm said:
> 
> 
> 
> there are good resources out there now, i don't disagree. but again, *there's no reason those resources couldn't be used with kids in public schools* to supplement or enhance their education.
> 
> 
> 
> I can think of two: Teachers wouldn't understand it.
> Teachers Unions.
> 
> Also, are you admitting that Public School needs "Supplementation or Enhancement?". It *ISN'T* Perfect?
Click to expand...

you don't know many teachers, do you?
i'm saying that all parents need to be involved in the education of their children, and that if as a parent you are completely giving that responsibility over to the schools than you are a failure as a parent, no question.


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## PoliticalChic

Katzndogz said:


> Lack of social interaction is libspeak for refusal to use drugs.




Social interaction:

"Kindergarten teacher suspended after two of her students, aged five, are caught 'having sex' in school bathroom"
Kids five found having sex in kindergarten bathroom by teacher now facing the axe Daily Mail Online 
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook


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## gipper

Katzndogz said:


> Lack of social interaction is libspeak for refusal to use drugs.



...and get indoctrinated into the ways of socialism and the all powerful state....

along with sex.


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## ogibillm

PoliticalChic said:


> Katzndogz said:
> 
> 
> 
> Lack of social interaction is libspeak for refusal to use drugs.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Social interaction:
> 
> "Kindergarten teacher suspended after two of her students, aged five, are caught 'having sex' in school bathroom"
> Kids five found having sex in kindergarten bathroom by teacher now facing the axe Daily Mail Online
> Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook
Click to expand...

and you're choosing to blame that on the teacher rather than the parents of those two students.

do you see my concern for homeschooling now?


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## PoliticalChic

ogibillm said:


> PoliticalChic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ogibillm said:
> 
> 
> 
> idiots raising idiots. hooray.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You've just catapulted into the idiot category.
> 
> 
> "Drawing from 15 independent testing services, the _Progress Report 2009: Homeschool Academic Achievement and Demographics_ included 11,739 homeschooled students from all 50 states who took three well-known tests—_California Achievement Test_, _Iowa Tests of Basic Skills_, and _Stanford Achievement Test_ for the 2007–08 academic year. The _Progress Report_ is the most comprehensive homeschool academic study ever completed.
> 
> *The Results*
> 
> Overall the study showed *significant advances in homeschool academic achievement as well as revealing that issues such as student gender, parents’ education level, and family income had little bearing on the results of homeschooled students. *
> 
> 
> *National Average Percentile Scores**Subtest**Homeschool**Public School*Reading8950Language8450Math8450Science8650Social Studies8450Corea8850Compositeb8650a. Core is a combination of Reading, Language, and Math.
> b. Composite is a combination of all subtests that the student took on the test."
> HSLDA New Nationwide Study Confirms Homeschool Academic Achievement
> 
> 
> 
> You feel stoooooopid?
> [TBODY]
> [/TBODY]
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> do you understand what a percentile is?
> i have no doubt that home schooling works for some people, and that their children do well. although those parents with the time and resources to truly home school correctly would have the time and resources to make sure their children are doing well and receiving a good education if their children attended public schools.
> 
> my main concern is that not every parent is equipped to be a teacher. for instance, i took calculus classes in high school. my parents are smart people, with advanced degrees, but neither of them could teach me calculus. I could teach my child calculus, but I don't have sufficient skills in the language arts to teach them well.
> 
> and knowledge aside, if you're keeping your kids out of schools because you want to indoctrinate them and avoid exposing them to other ideas you're an idiot, no matter how well your child scores academically.
Click to expand...




Shakespeare, in one of my favorite sonnets...

'...oh none, unless this miracle have might
That in black ink my love will still shine bright.'


And now, from you....another miracle:

A white flag in black ink!


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## ogibillm

PoliticalChic said:


> ogibillm said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PoliticalChic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ogibillm said:
> 
> 
> 
> idiots raising idiots. hooray.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You've just catapulted into the idiot category.
> 
> 
> "Drawing from 15 independent testing services, the _Progress Report 2009: Homeschool Academic Achievement and Demographics_ included 11,739 homeschooled students from all 50 states who took three well-known tests—_California Achievement Test_, _Iowa Tests of Basic Skills_, and _Stanford Achievement Test_ for the 2007–08 academic year. The _Progress Report_ is the most comprehensive homeschool academic study ever completed.
> 
> *The Results*
> 
> Overall the study showed *significant advances in homeschool academic achievement as well as revealing that issues such as student gender, parents’ education level, and family income had little bearing on the results of homeschooled students. *
> 
> 
> *National Average Percentile Scores**Subtest**Homeschool**Public School*Reading8950Language8450Math8450Science8650Social Studies8450Corea8850Compositeb8650a. Core is a combination of Reading, Language, and Math.
> b. Composite is a combination of all subtests that the student took on the test."
> HSLDA New Nationwide Study Confirms Homeschool Academic Achievement
> 
> 
> 
> You feel stoooooopid?
> [TBODY]
> [/TBODY]
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> do you understand what a percentile is?
> i have no doubt that home schooling works for some people, and that their children do well. although those parents with the time and resources to truly home school correctly would have the time and resources to make sure their children are doing well and receiving a good education if their children attended public schools.
> 
> my main concern is that not every parent is equipped to be a teacher. for instance, i took calculus classes in high school. my parents are smart people, with advanced degrees, but neither of them could teach me calculus. I could teach my child calculus, but I don't have sufficient skills in the language arts to teach them well.
> 
> and knowledge aside, if you're keeping your kids out of schools because you want to indoctrinate them and avoid exposing them to other ideas you're an idiot, no matter how well your child scores academically.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shakespeare, in one of my favorite sonnets...
> 
> '...oh none, unless this miracle have might
> That in black ink my love will still shine bright.'
> 
> 
> And now, from you....another miracle:
> 
> A white flag in black ink!
Click to expand...

so no, you don't understand what a percentile is.


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## R.D.

ogibillm said:


> TheOldSchool said:
> 
> 
> 
> There are many resources out there today that make homeschooling a great option for lots of families.  As mentioned above the K12 curriculum is really good.  My organization works with several homeschooled children and it is our main resource.
> 
> 
> 
> there are good resources out there now, i don't disagree. but again, there's no reason those resources couldn't be used with kids in public schools to supplement or enhance their education.
Click to expand...

This is true, but the fundamental fact that many parents fear the bad influenced in public schools is why homeschooling even exists.

As a sahm it was a full time job helping the kids  with curriculum and  keeping them from being "indoctinated"...specifically after 911, sex and man made global warming.   I knew homeschooling parents who failed their kids and who were fantastic at it.   The jury is still out imo.


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## TheOldSchool

ogibillm said:


> no, you can't. but a child isn't in school 24/7 either.



Neither is a homeschooled child.


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## ogibillm

TheOldSchool said:


> ogibillm said:
> 
> 
> 
> no, you can't. but a child isn't in school 24/7 either.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Neither is a homeschooled child.
Click to expand...

true.but that's not relevant to whether or not the parent of a public school student can give their child one one one learning time and attention.


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## TheOldSchool

ogibillm said:


> Neither is a homeschooled child.


true.but that's not relevant to whether or not the parent of a public school student can give their child one one one learning time and attention.[/QUOTE]

When did that ever come up?  A teacher in a school cannot give a student 1 on 1 percentage 100% of the time.  I said that in response to your post that homeschool resources would be put to better use in a public school.  When in fact they wouldn't because they are not designed for that.


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## ogibillm

TheOldSchool said:


> ogibillm said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> TheOldSchool said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Neither is a homeschooled child.
> 
> 
> 
> true.but that's not relevant to whether or not the parent of a public school student can give their child one one one learning time and attention.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> When did that ever come up?  A teacher in a school cannot give a student 1 on 1 percentage 100% of the time.  I said that in response to your post that homeschool resources would be put to better use in a public school.  When in fact they wouldn't because they are not designed for that.
Click to expand...

oh i'm sorry, i think we got our wires crossed. i'm saying the parent of any child can use whatever resources they want, and their are some good ones out there, to help with their child's education regardless of if that child is in a public school, private school, or home schooled.


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## Samson

Home schooling vs. Public School seems to be a choice in most states. With only < 4% of students being home schooled, Public School Teachers have little to be concerned about.

The rise of home schooling since 1970's probably has as much to do with technological improvements (The Internet), as anything else ("Liberal Education Establishment Boogie-men")...

But I don't expect the Partisan Agenda of the OP to accept Obvious Facts: Instead I expect croaking and chirping.


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## I.P.Freely

PoliticalChic said:


> ogibillm said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PoliticalChic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ogibillm said:
> 
> 
> 
> idiots raising idiots. hooray.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You've just catapulted into the idiot category.
> 
> 
> "Drawing from 15 independent testing services, the _Progress Report 2009: Homeschool Academic Achievement and Demographics_ included 11,739 homeschooled students from all 50 states who took three well-known tests—_California Achievement Test_, _Iowa Tests of Basic Skills_, and _Stanford Achievement Test_ for the 2007–08 academic year. The _Progress Report_ is the most comprehensive homeschool academic study ever completed.
> 
> *The Results*
> 
> Overall the study showed *significant advances in homeschool academic achievement as well as revealing that issues such as student gender, parents’ education level, and family income had little bearing on the results of homeschooled students. *
> 
> 
> *National Average Percentile Scores**Subtest**Homeschool**Public School*Reading8950Language8450Math8450Science8650Social Studies8450Corea8850Compositeb8650a. Core is a combination of Reading, Language, and Math.
> b. Composite is a combination of all subtests that the student took on the test."
> HSLDA New Nationwide Study Confirms Homeschool Academic Achievement
> 
> 
> 
> You feel stoooooopid?
> [TBODY]
> [/TBODY]
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> do you understand what a percentile is?
> i have no doubt that home schooling works for some people, and that their children do well. although those parents with the time and resources to truly home school correctly would have the time and resources to make sure their children are doing well and receiving a good education if their children attended public schools.
> 
> my main concern is that not every parent is equipped to be a teacher. for instance, i took calculus classes in high school. my parents are smart people, with advanced degrees, but neither of them could teach me calculus. I could teach my child calculus, but I don't have sufficient skills in the language arts to teach them well.
> 
> and knowledge aside, if you're keeping your kids out of schools because you want to indoctrinate them and avoid exposing them to other ideas you're an idiot, no matter how well your child scores academically.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shakespeare, in one of my favorite sonnets...
> 
> '...oh none, unless this miracle have might
> That in black ink my love will still shine bright.'
> 
> 
> And now, from you....another miracle:
> 
> A white flag in black ink!
Click to expand...

I am always surprised how a little knowledge may inflate a deflated ego.
There's no room for faith, truth, nor honesty in this bosom of thine. It is all filled up with guts and midriff.

Taken from: *Henry IV, part I*


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## PoliticalChic

ogibillm said:


> TheOldSchool said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ogibillm said:
> 
> 
> 
> no, you can't. but a child isn't in school 24/7 either.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Neither is a homeschooled child.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> true.but that's not relevant to whether or not the parent of a public school student can give their child one one one learning time and attention.
Click to expand...



Wrong. We do.


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## dblack

Children are property of the state. Parents have no right to deny proper indoctrination.


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## initforme

For those that are able to homeschool I commend them.  The problem is that most families don't make enough money where only 1 personworking makes nearly enough to survive.   That happened in the early 80's.   Who was prez then?   Most working class(the ones the parties throw under the bus to help the rich) can no longer afford 1 person working so who is there to teach?  Homeschooling is for the wealthy.


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## dblack

initforme said:


> For those that are able to homeschool I commend them.  The problem is that most families don't make enough money where only 1 personworking makes nearly enough to survive.   That happened in the early 80's.   Who was prez then?   Most working class(the ones the parties throw under the bus to help the rich) can no longer afford 1 person working so who is there to teach?  Homeschooling is for the wealthy.


Income Levels of Homeschool Families Intellectual Takeout ITO


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## PoliticalChic

initforme said:


> For those that are able to homeschool I commend them.  The problem is that most families don't make enough money where only 1 personworking makes nearly enough to survive.   That happened in the early 80's.   Who was prez then?   Most working class(the ones the parties throw under the bus to help the rich) can no longer afford 1 person working so who is there to teach?  Homeschooling is for the wealthy.




1."...happened in the early 80's.  Who was prez then?"
 Let's dispose of your Leftist nonsense....

"During this seven-year recovery, the economy grew by almost one-third, the equivalent of adding the entire economy of West Germany, the third-largest in the world at the time, to the U.S. economy.  *In 1984 alone real economic growth boomed by 6.8%, the highest in 50 years.*  Nearly 20 million new jobs were created during the recovery, increasing U.S. civilian employment by almost 20%.  Unemployment fell to 5.3% by 1989.


*Real per-capita disposable income increased by 18% from 1982 to 1989, *meaning the American standard of living increased by almost 20% in just seven years.  The poverty rate declined every year from 1984 to 1989, dropping by one-sixth from its peak.  The stock market more than tripled in value from 1980 to 1990, a larger increase than in any previous decade."
Reaganomics Vs. Obamanomics Facts And Figures - Forbes



2. Now, let's take care of you:
"The problem is that most families don't make enough money where only 1 personworking makes nearly enough to survive."

a. "That man is richest whose pleasures are the cheapest."
Henry David Thoreau.

So...if that new car is more important than your children's education....speaks volumes.


b. Do you know what "survive" means?
Your post sounds like teenage hyperbole.

c. Do know that the biggest bar to becoming wealthy is taxes?
But he did identify what he called “tactical lessons.” He let himself look too much like “the same old tax-and-spend liberal Democrat.” http://www.nytimes.com/2010/10/17/magazine/17obama-t.html


----------



## initforme

"
 c. Do know that the biggest bar to becoming wealthy is taxes"
Hogwash.   Those in the middle class today aren't going to survive on one salary no matter what copied quote you post.  That disposes of you.

Unemployme3nt rate means nothing if one is making a low wage.  I lived through it and saw it.  That was the transition period of one salary to two.  No matter what quotes you toss out, I will go with my actual experience.   The rich sure did well though.


----------



## Luddly Neddite

ogibillm said:


> idiots raising idiots. hooray.



Agree.

They're not qualified to teach anything more than bible thumping. 

I've known some home schooled kids and found their "education" to be very lop sided. 

OTOH, they might be able to work at home using computers, order pizza on their computer, buy their clothing (bathrobes?) on their computer and marry someone from their own "church". 

The OP is a good example. She posts these really strange tirades, oddly formatted, each just like the one before and all very one sided. But don't ask her to converse.


----------



## PoliticalChic

Luddly Neddite said:


> ogibillm said:
> 
> 
> 
> idiots raising idiots. hooray.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Agree.
> 
> They're not qualified to teach anything more than bible thumping.
> 
> I've known some home schooled kids and found their "education" to be very lop sided.
> 
> OTOH, they might be able to work at home using computers, order pizza on their computer, buy their clothing (bathrobes?) on their computer and marry someone from their own "church".
> 
> The OP is a good example. She posts these really strange tirades, oddly formatted, each just like the one before and all very one sided. But don't ask her to converse.
Click to expand...




Why do you suppose they score higher on standardized testes than government school grads?

Never mind....like most things, the question is over your head.


----------



## Caroljo

My son is in the Military, they live in NC.  My DIL had been homeschooling the 2 older kids (ages 6 & 8) for a couple years now and the kids are as smart or smarter than kids their age in public school.  She also kept them involved in school activities so they didn't feel they were missing out on anything.  They decided this year to start them in a Charter school and it seems to be working out pretty well.  The school systems in the area they live aren't the best....a guy a work with used to teach elementary in the same town and quit because they were so bad.  He said the best thing they could do is homeschool or send them to a private school.  They wanted to send them to a Christian school but really couldn't afford that.  But my DIL did a great job while she did it.

Now, my ex-DIL that didn't even finish 10th grade decided to homeschool my other 2 grandsons and they were really struggling.  Of course she couldn't help them, and her husband is a lazy SOB and really didn't care.  Now that my son has custody of the boys they're going to public school, but are having a hard time catching up with the rest.

It really makes a difference as to the REASON people homeschool, and if they're smart enough to teach.  There should be a test for parents to take to see if they're willing and able.


----------



## NoNukes

Mad Scientist said:


> Thanks PC! That graph shows that the average stay at home Mom or Dad is a better Teacher than the average Public School Teacher can EVER be.


This probably because of the ratio of 1 student per teacher. One would probably do as well or better in public school with this ratio.


----------



## PoliticalChic

NoNukes said:


> Mad Scientist said:
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks PC! That graph shows that the average stay at home Mom or Dad is a better Teacher than the average Public School Teacher can EVER be.
> 
> 
> 
> This probably because of the ratio of 1 student per teacher. One would probably do as well or better in public school with this ratio.
Click to expand...



Too bad you weren't homeschooled, huh?


----------



## PoliticalChic

Caroljo said:


> My son is in the Military, they live in NC.  My DIL had been homeschooling the 2 older kids (ages 6 & 8) for a couple years now and the kids are as smart or smarter than kids their age in public school.  She also kept them involved in school activities so they didn't feel they were missing out on anything.  They decided this year to start them in a Charter school and it seems to be working out pretty well.  The school systems in the area they live aren't the best....a guy a work with used to teach elementary in the same town and quit because they were so bad.  He said the best thing they could do is homeschool or send them to a private school.  They wanted to send them to a Christian school but really couldn't afford that.  But my DIL did a great job while she did it.
> 
> Now, my ex-DIL that didn't even finish 10th grade decided to homeschool my other 2 grandsons and they were really struggling.  Of course she couldn't help them, and her husband is a lazy SOB and really didn't care.  Now that my son has custody of the boys they're going to public school, but are having a hard time catching up with the rest.
> 
> It really makes a difference as to the REASON people homeschool, and if they're smart enough to teach.  There should be a test for parents to take to see if they're willing and able.







".... if they're smart enough to teach. There should be a test for parents to take to see if they're willing and able."

It was gratifying to read your post.

But don't overlook this: no matter how smart or well intentioned government school teachers are.....

.....they are hobbled and handicapped by the curricula put in place by the Leftists who run the indoctrination industry.


1. The federally funded “National History Standards” for elementary schools were released in 1994, cemented a revisionist view of American Communism for schoolteachers, as the guide mentions McCarthy over twenty times, while Edison and the Wright Brothers got no mention. “It …repeatedly condemns McCarthyism as an unmitigated evil…[but] the Hiss-Chambers and Rosenberg cases, the two dominant controversies of the anticommunist era, are described with bland, neutral language crafted to keep from implying guilt while not being quite so foolhardy as to actually assert innocence..’National Standards’…implies that the cases are part and parcel of the McCartyite horror.” 
From “In Denial,” by Haynes and Klehr, pg. 151

2. Revisionist views are found, for example, in the work of Ellen Wolf Schrecker, Ph.D., a professor of American history at Yeshiva University, who states “ whatever threat to the United States such espionage [by US citizens working for Soviet intelligence] may have posed, it was gone by the time the main justification for the McCarthy-era purges.” The revisionists claim that the greater sin was not the betrayal of the country by American Communists, but anticommunists using that betrayal as “a rationalization for the most widespread and the longest-lasting episode of political repression in our nation’s history.”


Homeschooling parents are not saddled with this unjust burden.


----------



## Samson

NoNukes said:


> Mad Scientist said:
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks PC! That graph shows that the average stay at home Mom or Dad is a better Teacher than the average Public School Teacher can EVER be.
> 
> 
> 
> This probably because of the ratio of 1 student per teacher. One would probably do as well or better in public school with this ratio.
Click to expand...


So I suppose your point is that public school would be as successful as home school if public schools were home schools.

Thanks


----------



## R.D.

NoNukes said:


> Mad Scientist said:
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks PC! That graph shows that the average stay at home Mom or Dad is a better Teacher than the average Public School Teacher can EVER be.
> 
> 
> 
> This probably because of the ratio of 1 student per teacher. One would probably do as well or better in public school with this ratio.
Click to expand...

This makes zero sense


----------



## PoliticalChic

American individuality, the basis of conservatism, would be enhanced by vouchers.


----------



## NoNukes

PoliticalChic said:


> NoNukes said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mad Scientist said:
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks PC! That graph shows that the average stay at home Mom or Dad is a better Teacher than the average Public School Teacher can EVER be.
> 
> 
> 
> This probably because of the ratio of 1 student per teacher. One would probably do as well or better in public school with this ratio.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Too bad you weren't homeschooled, huh?
Click to expand...

My parents would have killed me.


----------



## NoNukes

R.D. said:


> NoNukes said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mad Scientist said:
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks PC! That graph shows that the average stay at home Mom or Dad is a better Teacher than the average Public School Teacher can EVER be.
> 
> 
> 
> This probably because of the ratio of 1 student per teacher. One would probably do as well or better in public school with this ratio.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> This makes zero sense
Click to expand...

Have someone who was homeschooled explain it to you. 
What one looks for in a school is smaller classes so that the teachers can give more time to the kids. In homeschooling, the parent only had one student and can give them undevided attention.


----------



## R.D.

NoNukes said:


> R.D. said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> NoNukes said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mad Scientist said:
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks PC! That graph shows that the average stay at home Mom or Dad is a better Teacher than the average Public School Teacher can EVER be.
> 
> 
> 
> This probably because of the ratio of 1 student per teacher. One would probably do as well or better in public school with this ratio.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> This makes zero sense
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Have someone who was homeschooled explain it to you.
> What one looks for in a school is smaller classes so that the teachers can give more time to the kids. In homeschooling, the parent only had one student and can give them undevided attention.
Click to expand...

Again you fail unless you believe only families with one child homeschool.


----------



## NoNukes

R.D. said:


> NoNukes said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> R.D. said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> NoNukes said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mad Scientist said:
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks PC! That graph shows that the average stay at home Mom or Dad is a better Teacher than the average Public School Teacher can EVER be.
> 
> 
> 
> This probably because of the ratio of 1 student per teacher. One would probably do as well or better in public school with this ratio.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> This makes zero sense
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Have someone who was homeschooled explain it to you.
> What one looks for in a school is smaller classes so that the teachers can give more time to the kids. In homeschooling, the parent only had one student and can give them undevided attention.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Again you fail unless you believe only families with one child homeschool.
Click to expand...

Are you saying that it is an equal student to child ratio as a classroom with 30 plus students in it? There could also be more than one person teaching in homeschooling.


----------



## JakeStarkey

R.D. said:


> NoNukes said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mad Scientist said:
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks PC! That graph shows that the average stay at home Mom or Dad is a better Teacher than the average Public School Teacher can EVER be.
> 
> 
> 
> This probably because of the ratio of 1 student per teacher. One would probably do as well or better in public school with this ratio.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> This makes zero sense
Click to expand...

Of course it doesn't to you.  You were home schooled.


----------



## JakeStarkey

Home schooling normal involves much lower teacher to student ratios with a much higher ratio of one to one tutoring.


----------



## Samson

NoNukes said:


> R.D. said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> NoNukes said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mad Scientist said:
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks PC! That graph shows that the average stay at home Mom or Dad is a better Teacher than the average Public School Teacher can EVER be.
> 
> 
> 
> This probably because of the ratio of 1 student per teacher. One would probably do as well or better in public school with this ratio.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> This makes zero sense
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Have someone who was homeschooled explain it to you.
> What one looks for in a school is smaller classes so that the teachers can give more time to the kids. In homeschooling, the parent only had one student and can give them undevided attention.
Click to expand...


You point seems to be that home-schooled kids are more successful because they have smaller class sizes.

Obviously.

Is there any other point, other than agreeing that home-schooling is more successful than public schooling?


----------



## Samson

JakeStarkey said:


> Home schooling normal involves much lower teacher to student ratios with a much higher ratio of one to one tutoring.


----------



## NoNukes

Th


Samson said:


> JakeStarkey said:
> 
> 
> 
> Home schooling normal involves much lower teacher to student ratios with a much higher ratio of one to one tutoring.
Click to expand...

Then why am I being argued with about the student to teacher ratio?


----------



## R.D.

NoNukes said:


> Are you saying that it is an equal student to child ratio as a classroom with 30 plus students in it? There could also be more than one person teaching in homeschooling.


No.  I am just trying to get a handle  on your exaggerations.


----------



## Samson

NoNukes said:


> Th
> 
> 
> Samson said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JakeStarkey said:
> 
> 
> 
> Home schooling normal involves much lower teacher to student ratios with a much higher ratio of one to one tutoring.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Then why am I being argued with about the student to teacher ratio?
Click to expand...


Is anyone arguing?

I'm only wondering why one would feel the need to bring up the obvious: The ratio is much lower, and adds to the chances of student success in a home-schooled environment opposed to a public school environment.


----------



## Caroljo

PoliticalChic said:


> Caroljo said:
> 
> 
> 
> My son is in the Military, they live in NC.  My DIL had been homeschooling the 2 older kids (ages 6 & 8) for a couple years now and the kids are as smart or smarter than kids their age in public school.  She also kept them involved in school activities so they didn't feel they were missing out on anything.  They decided this year to start them in a Charter school and it seems to be working out pretty well.  The school systems in the area they live aren't the best....a guy a work with used to teach elementary in the same town and quit because they were so bad.  He said the best thing they could do is homeschool or send them to a private school.  They wanted to send them to a Christian school but really couldn't afford that.  But my DIL did a great job while she did it.
> 
> Now, my ex-DIL that didn't even finish 10th grade decided to homeschool my other 2 grandsons and they were really struggling.  Of course she couldn't help them, and her husband is a lazy SOB and really didn't care.  Now that my son has custody of the boys they're going to public school, but are having a hard time catching up with the rest.
> 
> It really makes a difference as to the REASON people homeschool, and if they're smart enough to teach.  There should be a test for parents to take to see if they're willing and able.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ".... if they're smart enough to teach. There should be a test for parents to take to see if they're willing and able."
> 
> It was gratifying to read your post.
> 
> But don't overlook this: no matter how smart or well intentioned government school teachers are.....
> 
> .....they are hobbled and handicapped by the curricula put in place by the Leftists who run the indoctrination industry.
> 
> 
> 1. The federally funded “National History Standards” for elementary schools were released in 1994, cemented a revisionist view of American Communism for schoolteachers, as the guide mentions McCarthy over twenty times, while Edison and the Wright Brothers got no mention. “It …repeatedly condemns McCarthyism as an unmitigated evil…[but] the Hiss-Chambers and Rosenberg cases, the two dominant controversies of the anticommunist era, are described with bland, neutral language crafted to keep from implying guilt while not being quite so foolhardy as to actually assert innocence..’National Standards’…implies that the cases are part and parcel of the McCartyite horror.”
> From “In Denial,” by Haynes and Klehr, pg. 151
> 
> 2. Revisionist views are found, for example, in the work of Ellen Wolf Schrecker, Ph.D., a professor of American history at Yeshiva University, who states “ whatever threat to the United States such espionage [by US citizens working for Soviet intelligence] may have posed, it was gone by the time the main justification for the McCarthy-era purges.” The revisionists claim that the greater sin was not the betrayal of the country by American Communists, but anticommunists using that betrayal as “a rationalization for the most widespread and the longest-lasting episode of political repression in our nation’s history.”
> 
> 
> Homeschooling parents are not saddled with this unjust burden.
Click to expand...

 
That's so true!  The guy I work with that used to teach in the town in NC where my son lives, said that his hands were always tied, he couldn't teach the way he thought was the best, he had to abide by all the rules/regulations that the system had in place.  It was very frustrating for him.


----------



## Caroljo

NoNukes said:


> R.D. said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> NoNukes said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mad Scientist said:
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks PC! That graph shows that the average stay at home Mom or Dad is a better Teacher than the average Public School Teacher can EVER be.
> 
> 
> 
> This probably because of the ratio of 1 student per teacher. One would probably do as well or better in public school with this ratio.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> This makes zero sense
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Have someone who was homeschooled explain it to you.
> What one looks for in a school is smaller classes so that the teachers can give more time to the kids. In homeschooling, the parent only had one student and can give them undevided attention.
Click to expand...

 
My DIL taught her 2 older kids, 2 grades apart.  People DO have more than 1 child usually, they all need to be taught.


----------



## Delta4Embassy

PoliticalChic said:


> I have been following the numbers of homeschoolers.....
> 
> 1. "Data from the *1999 NHES showed an estimated 850,000 homeschooled students* in the United States—about 1.7 percent of the school-age population (Bielick, Chandler, and Broughman 2001). The increase in the homeschooling rate (from 1.7 percent in 1999 to 2.2 percent in 2003 to 2.9 percent in 2007) represents a 74 percent relative increase over the 8-year period and a 36 percent relative increase since 2003."
> http://nces.ed.gov/pubs2009/2009030.pdf
> 
> That was published in 2009.
> 
> 
> 
> Now this:
> 
> 
> 2. "In North Carolina, the number of homeschoolers has now surpassed the number of students attending private schools....the homeschooling movement, which has rapidly increased in recent decades.
> 
> 3. In *1973, there were approximately 13,000 children, *ages 5 to 17, being homeschooled in the United States. ... as of the 2011-2012 school year,* that number has grown to almost 1.8 million* or approximately* 3.4 percent of the school age population.* Other sources report numbers well over 2 million.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 4. In the Tar Heel state alone, homeschooling has increased by 27 percent over the past two years.
> 
> 5. ....pretty impressive numbers for a movement considered “fringe” not that long ago and that has only been legal in all 50 states since 1996.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 6. The *Department of Education, which surely isn’t happy with the trend,* has tracked the issue since 2003. According to its findings:
> 
> 
> In 2003, 85 percent of parents said they chose homeschooling because of “a concern about *the school environment*” which included worry about safety, drugs or negative peer pressure. That number jumped to 91 percent by 2011.
> 
> In 2003, 72 percent said “a desire to provide *religious or moral instruction” *was a major reason. In 2011, that number had increased to 77 percent.
> 
> In 2003, 68 percent said “*dissatisfaction with academic instruction* at other schools” contributed to their decision. By 2011, that was up to 74 percent.
> 7. ...my guess is when the figures are reported related to the past two years you’ll see the number of parents citing “dissatisfaction with academic instruction” spike with the growing uprising against Common Core and national standards.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 8. ....the public education establishment don’t find homeschooling up to their standards. The National Education Association, the country’s largest teacher’s union,declared in a 2011 resolution: “The National Education Association believes that homeschooling programs based on *parental choice cannot provide the student with a comprehensive education experience.”*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 9. ....*the actual results from homeschooling. *According to Education News:
> Recent studies laud homeschoolers’ *academic success, noting their significantly higher ACT-Composite scores as high schoolers and higher grade point averages as college students.*
> 
> 
> 10. Yet surprisingly, the average expenditure for the education of a homeschooled child, per year, is $500 to $600, compared to an average expenditure of $10,000 per child, per year, for public school students.
> What is not calculated in the cost line above for homeschooling is the time spent by a parent teaching."
> In One State More Children Homeschool Than Attend Private Schools.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What is not mentioned, as well, is the decision by homeschool parents to have children more like themselves, rather than the mind-numbed automatons that government schools turn out.




Always intended to home-school my own kids if ever had them (I keep trying but they keep escaping.)  Public school shootings, bullying, and poor education being my main reasons. At least until the last few grades where I might be unable to teach at that level. Knowing is one thing, being able to impart knowledge though is a skill.


----------



## JakeStarkey

Samson said:


> NoNukes said:
> 
> 
> 
> Th
> 
> 
> Samson said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JakeStarkey said:
> 
> 
> 
> Home schooling normal involves much lower teacher to student ratios with a much higher ratio of one to one tutoring.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Then why am I being argued with about the student to teacher ratio?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Is anyone arguing?
> 
> I'm only wondering why one would feel the need to bring up the obvious: The ratio is much lower, and adds to the chances of student success in a home-schooled environment opposed to a public school environment.
Click to expand...

 Don't dither, please.  The point is that if public school class sizes were reduced in number, learning would improve.  That is the obvious answer.


----------



## PoliticalChic

JakeStarkey said:


> Samson said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> NoNukes said:
> 
> 
> 
> Th
> 
> 
> Samson said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JakeStarkey said:
> 
> 
> 
> Home schooling normal involves much lower teacher to student ratios with a much higher ratio of one to one tutoring.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Then why am I being argued with about the student to teacher ratio?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Is anyone arguing?
> 
> I'm only wondering why one would feel the need to bring up the obvious: The ratio is much lower, and adds to the chances of student success in a home-schooled environment opposed to a public school environment.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Don't dither, please.  The point is that if public school class sizes were reduced in number, learning would improve.  That is the obvious answer.
Click to expand...



"Obvious" is often incorrect.

Most often in the case of your posts.





Urban parochial schools were serving a growing share of disadvantaged and frequently non-Catholic youngsters. In a study published in 1990, for example, the Rand Corporation found that, of the Catholic school students in these Catholic high schools in New York City, 75 to 90 percent were black or Hispanic.

  i.  Over 66 percentof the Catholic school graduates received the New York State Regents diploma to signify completion of an academically demanding college preparatory curriculum, while only about 5 percent of the public school students received this distinction;

  ii.  The Catholic high schools graduated 95 percent of their students each year, while the public schools graduated slightly more 50 percent of their senior class;

  iii.  The Catholic school students achieved an average combined SAT score of 803, while the public school students' average combined SAT score was 642;

  iv.  60 percent of the Catholic school black students scored above the national average for black students on the SAT, and over 70 percent of public school black students scored below the same national average.

  « More recent studies confirm these observations. Why Catholic Schools Spell Success For America s Inner-CityChildren



"Classes in Catholic parochial schools tended to be larger than in private schools in general. More than 62 percent of the Catholic parochial schools had an average class size of 25 or more, a substantially higher proportion than private schools overall (36 percent)."
Private Schools in the United States A Statistical Profile 1993-94 Catholic-Parochial Schools


JakeStarkey said:


> R.D. said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> NoNukes said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mad Scientist said:
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks PC! That graph shows that the average stay at home Mom or Dad is a better Teacher than the average Public School Teacher can EVER be.
> 
> 
> 
> This probably because of the ratio of 1 student per teacher. One would probably do as well or better in public school with this ratio.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> This makes zero sense
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Of course it doesn't to you.  You were home schooled.
Click to expand...





Do you not understand that, by every metric, homeschooled students are better educated than government school grads?

And.....that leads one to conclude that you were a government school grad.

True?


----------



## Samson

JakeStarkey said:


> Don't dither, please.  The point is that if public school class sizes were reduced in number, learning would improve.  That is the obvious answer.



But public school class sizes _*are not reduced in number*_, so learning improves with home-schooling.

Let's attempt to offer _REAL WORLD SOLUTIONS_ rather than examining ridiculous absurdities like pretending public schools will ever have parity with home-schools' teacher to student ratios.

If anyone would really like to dither we could pretend all students were perfectly parented consistently healthy angels with IQ's of 130. Hey, guess what? LEARNING WOULD IMPROVE in public schools regardless of class size!!! This scenario is similarly as stupid as expecting public school teacher to student ratios to approach home-school's ratios.


----------



## JakeStarkey

For a bright guy on education, you evidently cannot critically think, a shame.

Go back and underline your errors.


----------



## Samson

JakeStarkey said:


> For a bright guy on education, you evidently cannot critically think, a shame.
> 
> Go back and underline your errors.



Try posting something worthy of thought: Noting that,

_if public school class sizes were reduced in number, learning would improve
_​Is not what we call, "worthy," unless you'd also like to share your other stunning observations: The fact that water is wet? Sky is Blue? Do you have a point atop your head?


----------



## NoNukes

Yes


Samson said:


> NoNukes said:
> 
> 
> 
> Th
> 
> 
> Samson said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JakeStarkey said:
> 
> 
> 
> Home schooling normal involves much lower teacher to student ratios with a much higher ratio of one to one tutoring.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Then why am I being argued with about the student to teacher ratio?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Is anyone arguing?
> 
> I'm only wondering why one would feel the need to bring up the obvious: The ratio is much lower, and adds to the chances of student success in a home-schooled environment opposed to a public school environment.
Click to expand...

Try to pay attention. You even agreed with them.


----------



## Samson

NoNukes said:


> Yes
> 
> 
> Samson said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> NoNukes said:
> 
> 
> 
> Th
> 
> 
> Samson said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JakeStarkey said:
> 
> 
> 
> Home schooling normal involves much lower teacher to student ratios with a much higher ratio of one to one tutoring.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Then why am I being argued with about the student to teacher ratio?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Is anyone arguing?
> 
> I'm only wondering why one would feel the need to bring up the obvious: The ratio is much lower, and adds to the chances of student success in a home-schooled environment opposed to a public school environment.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Try to pay attention. You even agreed with them.
Click to expand...


Attention to your pointless blather?

If you ever get a clue about the subject, get back to us.

Until then, please pick up a shiny object at the door to entertain yourself on the way out.


----------



## NoNukes

i am t


Samson said:


> NoNukes said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yes
> 
> 
> Samson said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> NoNukes said:
> 
> 
> 
> Th
> 
> 
> Samson said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JakeStarkey said:
> 
> 
> 
> Home schooling normal involves much lower teacher to student ratios with a much higher ratio of one to one tutoring.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Then why am I being argued with about the student to teacher ratio?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Is anyone arguing?
> 
> I'm only wondering why one would feel the need to bring up the obvious: The ratio is much lower, and adds to the chances of student success in a home-schooled environment opposed to a public school environment.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Try to pay attention. You even agreed with them.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Attention to your pointless blather?
> 
> If you ever get a clue about the subject, get back to us.
> 
> Until then, please pick up a shiny object at the door to entertain yourself on the way out.
Click to expand...

I am probably the most experienced person on the thread as far as education is concerned. Do not know what you are going on about. Guess the drugs are good. Good on ya fella.


----------



## Samson

NoNukes said:


> I am probably the most experienced person on the thread as far as education is concerned. Do not know what you are going on about. Guess the drugs are good. Good on ya fella.



Ok no shiny object for you.


----------



## elektra

NoNukes said:


> i am t
> 
> 
> Samson said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> NoNukes said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yes
> 
> 
> Samson said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> NoNukes said:
> 
> 
> 
> Th
> 
> 
> Samson said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Then why am I being argued with about the student to teacher ratio?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Is anyone arguing?
> 
> I'm only wondering why one would feel the need to bring up the obvious: The ratio is much lower, and adds to the chances of student success in a home-schooled environment opposed to a public school environment.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Try to pay attention. You even agreed with them.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Attention to your pointless blather?
> 
> If you ever get a clue about the subject, get back to us.
> 
> Until then, please pick up a shiny object at the door to entertain yourself on the way out.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I am probably the most experienced person on the thread as far as education is concerned. Do not know what you are going on about. Guess the drugs are good. Good on ya fella.
Click to expand...

Then why is your user name, nonukes


----------



## NoNukes

W


elektra said:


> NoNukes said:
> 
> 
> 
> i am t
> 
> 
> Samson said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> NoNukes said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yes
> 
> 
> Samson said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> NoNukes said:
> 
> 
> 
> Th
> Then why am I being argued with about the student to teacher ratio?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Is anyone arguing?
> 
> I'm only wondering why one would feel the need to bring up the obvious: The ratio is much lower, and adds to the chances of student success in a home-schooled environment opposed to a public school environment.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Try to pay attention. You even agreed with them.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Attention to your pointless blather?
> 
> If you ever get a clue about the subject, get back to us.
> 
> Until then, please pick up a shiny object at the door to entertain yourself on the way out.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I am probably the most experienced person on the thread as far as education is concerned. Do not know what you are going on about. Guess the drugs are good. Good on ya fella.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Then why is your user name, nonukes
Click to expand...

Why not? It has to do with a series of concerts I was involved with in New Yirk City back in the 70s.


----------



## NoNukes

elektra said:


> NoNukes said:
> 
> 
> 
> W
> 
> 
> elektra said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> NoNukes said:
> 
> 
> 
> i am t
> 
> 
> Samson said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> NoNukes said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yes
> Try to pay attention. You even agreed with them.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Attention to your pointless blather?
> 
> If you ever get a clue about the subject, get back to us.
> 
> Until then, please pick up a shiny object at the door to entertain yourself on the way out.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I am probably the most experienced person on the thread as far as education is concerned. Do not know what you are going on about. Guess the drugs are good. Good on ya fella.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Then why is your user name, nonukes
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Why not? It has to do with a series of concerts I was involved with in New Yirk City back in the 70s.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I always think energy, I forget about bombs, and with a music oriented avatar, I should not of missed that.
Click to expand...

It had to do with clean energy and not bombs.


----------



## elektra

NoNukes said:


> elektra said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> NoNukes said:
> 
> 
> 
> W
> 
> 
> elektra said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> NoNukes said:
> 
> 
> 
> i am t
> 
> 
> Samson said:
> 
> 
> 
> Attention to your pointless blather?
> 
> If you ever get a clue about the subject, get back to us.
> 
> Until then, please pick up a shiny object at the door to entertain yourself on the way out.
> 
> 
> 
> I am probably the most experienced person on the thread as far as education is concerned. Do not know what you are going on about. Guess the drugs are good. Good on ya fella.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Then why is your user name, nonukes
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Why not? It has to do with a series of concerts I was involved with in New Yirk City back in the 70s.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I always think energy, I forget about bombs, and with a music oriented avatar, I should not of missed that.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> It had to do with clean energy and not bombs.
Click to expand...

In the 70;s, right.


----------



## Unkotare

NoNukes said:


> I am probably the most experienced person on the thread as far as education is concerned.




Why do you say that?


----------



## PoliticalChic

Unkotare said:


> NoNukes said:
> 
> 
> 
> I am probably the most experienced person on the thread as far as education is concerned.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Why do you say that?
Click to expand...



Because of how many times he was left back in grade school.


----------



## gipper

The government schools are terribly expensive and horrendous failures.  That is clear to some of us.

Who controls education in this country, from K to Ph. D.?  The left of course.

Who is owned by the teachers unions?  The D party of course.

Who is against school choice?  The Left, D party, and p-school teachers and their unions.

Who demonizes home schooling?  The same leftists groups.


----------



## rightwinger

Home schooling is a great option for many parents. You get to control all the information your children are subjected to and they don't have to go to school with negroes or poor people


----------



## gipper

rightwinger said:


> Home schooling is a great option for many parents. You get to control all the information your children are subjected to and they don't have to go to school with negroes or poor people



More demonizing and racism from a leftist fool.


----------



## rightwinger

gipper said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> Home schooling is a great option for many parents. You get to control all the information your children are subjected to and they don't have to go to school with negroes or poor people
> 
> 
> 
> 
> More demonizing and racism from a leftist fool.
Click to expand...

 
Lets cut to the chase..

Homeschool parents declare....I am such a great parent, I homeschool my child because I want my child to receive the best education possible

In reality, they homeschool because they are afraid their child may be exposed to ideas the parents don't support and "God forbid" they are exposed to negroes, gays, hispanics, poor kids, atheists and even worse......liberals


----------



## gipper

rightwinger said:


> gipper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> Home schooling is a great option for many parents. You get to control all the information your children are subjected to and they don't have to go to school with negroes or poor people
> 
> 
> 
> 
> More demonizing and racism from a leftist fool.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Lets cut to the chase..
> 
> Homeschool parents declare....I am such a great parent, I homeschool my child because I want my child to receive the best education possible
> 
> In reality, they homeschool because they are afraid their child may be exposed to ideas the parents don't support and "God forbid" they are exposed to negroes, gays, hispanics, poor kids, atheists and even worse......liberals
Click to expand...


You never cut to the chase.  You can't help it due to your overwhelming ignorance and left wing brainwashing...


----------



## PoliticalChic

rightwinger said:


> gipper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> Home schooling is a great option for many parents. You get to control all the information your children are subjected to and they don't have to go to school with negroes or poor people
> 
> 
> 
> 
> More demonizing and racism from a leftist fool.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Lets cut to the chase..
> 
> Homeschool parents declare....I am such a great parent, I homeschool my child because I want my child to receive the best education possible
> 
> In reality, they homeschool because they are afraid their child may be exposed to ideas the parents don't support and "God forbid" they are exposed to negroes, gays, hispanics, poor kids, atheists and even worse......liberals
Click to expand...




1. By all metrics, homeschooled students do better than government school grads.
Let's begin with that fact.
So...which is better for America....homeschooling or government schooling?

2. Unlike you Liberals, I don't believe in 'thought crime.'
So....arguendo, let's say that you are correct about the reasons for parents choosing homeschooling.....
....so what?

Didn't you learn anything from your predecessors in the Soviet Union organizing re-education camps...their version of government schools?


Which is better for America, an educated electorate, or automatons who 'think' what you want them to think?



3. On Wednesday, June 6, 1928 the Oxford English Dictionary was completed. In _The Meaning of Everything, _Simon Winchester discusses the English of the time as follows:
  “The English establishment of the day might be rightly derided at this remove as having been class-ridden and imperialist, bombastic and blimpish, racist and insouciant- but it was marked undeniably also by* a sweeping erudition and confidence, and *_*it was peopled by men and women who felt they were able to know all, to understand much, and in consequence to radiate the wisdom of deep learning.”

*
4. Having a poor opinion of other folks is hardly the worst thing, and far less odious than being uneducated.
I accept your opinion of conservatives, and simply recognize that you are wrong._


----------



## rightwinger

Homeschool parents get to control every aspect of their childs life. What they learn, who they can interact with, what they are exposed to

Little Jimmies friends are carefully selected for him. He has no free time where he can interact with children of his choice or hear ideas that his parents don't suppport.

The local school is filled with negroes, hispanics, jews, atheists and poor kids. They are a bad influence on little Jimmy

That is why Jimmy is home schooled


----------



## PoliticalChic

rightwinger said:


> Homeschool parents get to control every aspect of their childs life. What they learn, who they can interact with, what they are exposed to
> 
> Little Jimmies friends are carefully selected for him. He has no free time where he can interact with children of his choice or hear ideas that his parents don't suppport.
> 
> The local school is filled with negroes, hispanics, jews, atheists and poor kids. They are a bad influence on little Jimmy
> 
> That is why Jimmy is home schooled






You're simply repeating your earlier defamations.

Answer my question, or admit that critical thinking is not part of the Liberal makeup.


----------



## Andylusion

Gadawg73 said:


> Having coached over 50 rec teams over a 20 year span I had a lot of home schooled kids. My thoughts and experience with them are the majority are far ahead of the public schools in all areas of academic study, especially in math, science and reading. I had a few that were just the opposite. Some parents keep their kids out of the public schools because they believe the kids are being taught things that are opposite what their religion teaches and then go to the extreme on it. I had one kid in particular that was an all star football player. Neighborhood kid with a mother gone nuts on religion. Home "schooled" from an on line course I do not know how got approved here but this is the Bible Belt. "Gary" was a good kid but sheltered and was as dumb as a brick academically because his mother did not really care as long as Gary did not have to go to the evil school and be indoctrinated. Real story was she was sheltering Gary and could care less about his education. Tens of thousands of home schooled kids are this way. Gary eventually got away from his mother as his parents divorced and the father took him. He went to the high school and excelled after a few years on and off the football field. We have had a real problem with their court fights also wanting use after hours of all public school facilities such as sports fields, chemistry lab, libraries, etc. and have won every fight. The lack of social interaction often hurts these kids but I see them as a whole far better educated out of high school than the norm and that, after all is said is done, is the most important thing. Academics is where it is at and even more so now if you do play ball because few colleges and universities want to waste an academic scholarship on someone that will not be eligible the next year.



I would generally agree with that, but the problem with "this kid was home schooled and is stupid" is that, have you been in the public schools?   There are just as many, if not more, really really stupid kids in public schools.

I keep going back to when I was in 11th grade, and met a kid from the inner city schools who asked me how to do a basic division problem..... like 5 divided by 2......   ON HIS CALCULATOR.   He didn't know to do the division problem on his calculator.

Now we had a few, very few, students like that at my suburban school, but that's why they were 18 and still in 9th grade.

Here we had a kid in 11th grade, who still couldn't do basic division, even WITH a calculator.

So my thinking on the matter is this....

There are three parts to successful education.
1. the individual student.
2. the parents of the student.
3. the education system the student is in.

If the individual student does not have the ability, or simply refuses to engage in learning, nothing else matters.

You take that stupid homeschool kid who refuses to, or is unable to learn, and put him in a public school, all you are doing is dumping millions of dollars into a kid who still won't learn.

I'd rather he be homeschool, and cost the tax payers nothing.

You take that stupid homeschool kid, whose parents don't care about education, and put him in a public school, and all you are doing is dumping millions of dollars into a kids who doesn't care to learn, because his parents don't care to learn.

I've talked about my sister, stay at home mother of 5.   After her first, she got those 'early reading books' and spent a whooping 1 hour a day, teaching her son to read.   By the time he started school, he was 4 grade levels ahead in reading.  To this day, now 6 years later, he's still top of his class in reading.

Just having a mother who is willing to put her career aside (she worked before becoming a housewife), and putting in minimal effort into teaching her kids, has made a MASSIVE impact on their education levels.

So it doesn't surprise me in the slightest that home schooled kids on average out perform their publicly educated peers.


----------



## Andylusion

PoliticalChic said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> Homeschool parents get to control every aspect of their childs life. What they learn, who they can interact with, what they are exposed to
> 
> Little Jimmies friends are carefully selected for him. He has no free time where he can interact with children of his choice or hear ideas that his parents don't suppport.
> 
> The local school is filled with negroes, hispanics, jews, atheists and poor kids. They are a bad influence on little Jimmy
> 
> That is why Jimmy is home schooled
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You're simply repeating your earlier defamations.
> 
> Answer my question, or admit that critical thinking is not part of the Liberal makeup.
Click to expand...


Actually, I think that moron is the bad influences parents are trying to keep Jimmy away from.  That level of stupid, rubs off.


----------



## rightwinger

PoliticalChic said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> Homeschool parents get to control every aspect of their childs life. What they learn, who they can interact with, what they are exposed to
> 
> Little Jimmies friends are carefully selected for him. He has no free time where he can interact with children of his choice or hear ideas that his parents don't suppport.
> 
> The local school is filled with negroes, hispanics, jews, atheists and poor kids. They are a bad influence on little Jimmy
> 
> That is why Jimmy is home schooled
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You're simply repeating your earlier defamations.
> 
> Answer my question, or admit that critical thinking is not part of the Liberal makeup.
Click to expand...

 
You had a question hidden in all that cut and paste?


----------



## PoliticalChic

rightwinger said:


> PoliticalChic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> Homeschool parents get to control every aspect of their childs life. What they learn, who they can interact with, what they are exposed to
> 
> Little Jimmies friends are carefully selected for him. He has no free time where he can interact with children of his choice or hear ideas that his parents don't suppport.
> 
> The local school is filled with negroes, hispanics, jews, atheists and poor kids. They are a bad influence on little Jimmy
> 
> That is why Jimmy is home schooled
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You're simply repeating your earlier defamations.
> 
> Answer my question, or admit that critical thinking is not part of the Liberal makeup.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You had a question hidden in all that cut and paste?
Click to expand...




I accept that your refusal to answer the question is based on how it eviscerates your Liberal slanders.


----------



## rightwinger

PoliticalChic said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PoliticalChic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> Homeschool parents get to control every aspect of their childs life. What they learn, who they can interact with, what they are exposed to
> 
> Little Jimmies friends are carefully selected for him. He has no free time where he can interact with children of his choice or hear ideas that his parents don't suppport.
> 
> The local school is filled with negroes, hispanics, jews, atheists and poor kids. They are a bad influence on little Jimmy
> 
> That is why Jimmy is home schooled
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You're simply repeating your earlier defamations.
> 
> Answer my question, or admit that critical thinking is not part of the Liberal makeup.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You had a question hidden in all that cut and paste?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I accept that your refusal to answer the question is based on how it eviscerates your Liberal slanders.
Click to expand...

 
All I saw was a bunch of unrelated rambling.....if there was a point to your madness or any coherent question, I didn't bother to try to find it


----------



## PoliticalChic

rightwinger said:


> PoliticalChic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PoliticalChic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> Homeschool parents get to control every aspect of their childs life. What they learn, who they can interact with, what they are exposed to
> 
> Little Jimmies friends are carefully selected for him. He has no free time where he can interact with children of his choice or hear ideas that his parents don't suppport.
> 
> The local school is filled with negroes, hispanics, jews, atheists and poor kids. They are a bad influence on little Jimmy
> 
> That is why Jimmy is home schooled
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You're simply repeating your earlier defamations.
> 
> Answer my question, or admit that critical thinking is not part of the Liberal makeup.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You had a question hidden in all that cut and paste?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I accept that your refusal to answer the question is based on how it eviscerates your Liberal slanders.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> All I saw was a bunch of unrelated rambling.....if there was a point to your madness or any coherent question, I didn't bother to try to find it
Click to expand...




Liar.


----------



## gipper

rightwinger said:


> PoliticalChic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PoliticalChic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> Homeschool parents get to control every aspect of their childs life. What they learn, who they can interact with, what they are exposed to
> 
> Little Jimmies friends are carefully selected for him. He has no free time where he can interact with children of his choice or hear ideas that his parents don't suppport.
> 
> The local school is filled with negroes, hispanics, jews, atheists and poor kids. They are a bad influence on little Jimmy
> 
> That is why Jimmy is home schooled
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You're simply repeating your earlier defamations.
> 
> Answer my question, or admit that critical thinking is not part of the Liberal makeup.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You had a question hidden in all that cut and paste?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I accept that your refusal to answer the question is based on how it eviscerates your Liberal slanders.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> All I saw was a bunch of unrelated rambling.....if there was a point to your madness or any coherent question, I didn't bother to try to find it
Click to expand...


It is amazing how dumb a human being can be.


----------



## PoliticalChic

gipper said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PoliticalChic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PoliticalChic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> Homeschool parents get to control every aspect of their childs life. What they learn, who they can interact with, what they are exposed to
> 
> Little Jimmies friends are carefully selected for him. He has no free time where he can interact with children of his choice or hear ideas that his parents don't suppport.
> 
> The local school is filled with negroes, hispanics, jews, atheists and poor kids. They are a bad influence on little Jimmy
> 
> That is why Jimmy is home schooled
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You're simply repeating your earlier defamations.
> 
> Answer my question, or admit that critical thinking is not part of the Liberal makeup.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You had a question hidden in all that cut and paste?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I accept that your refusal to answer the question is based on how it eviscerates your Liberal slanders.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> All I saw was a bunch of unrelated rambling.....if there was a point to your madness or any coherent question, I didn't bother to try to find it
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> It is amazing how dumb a human being can be.
Click to expand...



I don't think he's dumb.

Rather, he is a Liberal who regularly uses tried and true Liberal tactics, and lying is one that is accepted in that philosophy.

Alinsky taught them that we on the right are ashamed of lying, or acting in ways that we claim we oppose....

"For example, since the Haves publicly pose as the custodians of responsibility, morality, law, and justice (which are frequently strangers to each others), they can be constantly pushed to live up to their own book of morality and regulations. *No organizations, including organized religion, can live up to the letter of its own book. You can club them to death with their "book" of rules and regulations.* This is what that great revolutionary, Paul of Tarsus, knew when he wrote to the Corinthians: "Who also hath made us able ministers of the New Testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit, for the letter killeth." 
 Saul Alinsky, _Rules for Radicals_, P.152
Articles The Totalitarian Minority

....not true for them. 
A rapist is the most popular Democrat today.


----------



## hadit

rightwinger said:


> Homeschool parents get to control every aspect of their childs life. What they learn, who they can interact with, what they are exposed to
> 
> Little Jimmies friends are carefully selected for him. He has no free time where he can interact with children of his choice or hear ideas that his parents don't suppport.
> 
> The local school is filled with negroes, hispanics, jews, atheists and poor kids. They are a bad influence on little Jimmy
> 
> That is why Jimmy is home schooled



Apparently, you were not encouraged as a child to interact with others who hold opinions different from your own, or to dispassionately consume and process information about them.  IOW, you're validating the opinions of many parents who choose to homeschool their children.  Why would parents want their children to endure ridicule from kids who talk like you write?


----------



## rightwinger

hadit said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> Homeschool parents get to control every aspect of their childs life. What they learn, who they can interact with, what they are exposed to
> 
> Little Jimmies friends are carefully selected for him. He has no free time where he can interact with children of his choice or hear ideas that his parents don't suppport.
> 
> The local school is filled with negroes, hispanics, jews, atheists and poor kids. They are a bad influence on little Jimmy
> 
> That is why Jimmy is home schooled
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Apparently, you were not encouraged as a child to interact with others who hold opinions different from your own, or to dispassionately consume and process information about them.  IOW, you're validating the opinions of many parents who choose to homeschool their children.  Why would parents want their children to endure ridicule from kids who talk like you write?
Click to expand...

 
I interacted with many children and many teachers who had different opinions. I dealt with kids of different races, nationalities, religions, economic stature. I interacted with kids from throughout the US. I also dealt with bullies, racists, druggies, jocks, nerds, homosexuals, liberals, conservatives, atheists and fundamentalists

I learned to take in information from a wide range of sources and form my own opinions

Home school kids don't get that opportunity


----------



## PoliticalChic

rightwinger said:


> hadit said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> Homeschool parents get to control every aspect of their childs life. What they learn, who they can interact with, what they are exposed to
> 
> Little Jimmies friends are carefully selected for him. He has no free time where he can interact with children of his choice or hear ideas that his parents don't suppport.
> 
> The local school is filled with negroes, hispanics, jews, atheists and poor kids. They are a bad influence on little Jimmy
> 
> That is why Jimmy is home schooled
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Apparently, you were not encouraged as a child to interact with others who hold opinions different from your own, or to dispassionately consume and process information about them.  IOW, you're validating the opinions of many parents who choose to homeschool their children.  Why would parents want their children to endure ridicule from kids who talk like you write?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I interacted with many children and many teachers who had different opinions. I dealt with kids of different races, nationalities, religions, economic stature. I interacted with kids from throughout the US. I also dealt with bullies, racists, druggies, jocks, nerds, homosexuals, liberals, conservatives, atheists and fundamentalists
> 
> I learned to take in information from a wide range of sources and form my own opinions
> 
> Home school kids don't get that opportunity
Click to expand...



Another fabrication.


----------



## hadit

rightwinger said:


> hadit said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> Homeschool parents get to control every aspect of their childs life. What they learn, who they can interact with, what they are exposed to
> 
> Little Jimmies friends are carefully selected for him. He has no free time where he can interact with children of his choice or hear ideas that his parents don't suppport.
> 
> The local school is filled with negroes, hispanics, jews, atheists and poor kids. They are a bad influence on little Jimmy
> 
> That is why Jimmy is home schooled
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Apparently, you were not encouraged as a child to interact with others who hold opinions different from your own, or to dispassionately consume and process information about them.  IOW, you're validating the opinions of many parents who choose to homeschool their children.  Why would parents want their children to endure ridicule from kids who talk like you write?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I interacted with many children and many teachers who had different opinions. I dealt with kids of different races, nationalities, religions, economic stature. I interacted with kids from throughout the US. I also dealt with bullies, racists, druggies, jocks, nerds, homosexuals, liberals, conservatives, atheists and fundamentalists
> 
> I learned to take in information from a wide range of sources and form my own opinions
> 
> Home school kids don't get that opportunity
Click to expand...


Total BS.  Home schooled kids are in co-ops, get to travel and see things that government schooled kids don't, because their families can pack up and go whenever they want to and take school with them.  They don't get bullied at school, they don't see their class mates or teachers get assaulted at school, they don't have peer pressure pushing them into sexual or drug experimentation at school.

You post like someone who never learned how to interact in an adult world, with respect for his/her peers.  Again, why would parents want their children to be harassed by kids with attitudes like yours?  Until home schooled kids stop outperforming government schooled kids by such wide margins, you really have little to complain about.


----------



## hadit

PoliticalChic said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> hadit said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> Homeschool parents get to control every aspect of their childs life. What they learn, who they can interact with, what they are exposed to
> 
> Little Jimmies friends are carefully selected for him. He has no free time where he can interact with children of his choice or hear ideas that his parents don't suppport.
> 
> The local school is filled with negroes, hispanics, jews, atheists and poor kids. They are a bad influence on little Jimmy
> 
> That is why Jimmy is home schooled
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Apparently, you were not encouraged as a child to interact with others who hold opinions different from your own, or to dispassionately consume and process information about them.  IOW, you're validating the opinions of many parents who choose to homeschool their children.  Why would parents want their children to endure ridicule from kids who talk like you write?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I interacted with many children and many teachers who had different opinions. I dealt with kids of different races, nationalities, religions, economic stature. I interacted with kids from throughout the US. I also dealt with bullies, racists, druggies, jocks, nerds, homosexuals, liberals, conservatives, atheists and fundamentalists
> 
> I learned to take in information from a wide range of sources and form my own opinions
> 
> Home school kids don't get that opportunity
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Another fabrication.
Click to expand...


Why anyone would think it is better to stuff a kid into a room with 30 other kids whose highest priority is to be anywhere but there and a teacher whose highest priority is to make all of them sit still and be quiet for an hour is beyond me.


----------



## PoliticalChic

hadit said:


> PoliticalChic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> hadit said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> Homeschool parents get to control every aspect of their childs life. What they learn, who they can interact with, what they are exposed to
> 
> Little Jimmies friends are carefully selected for him. He has no free time where he can interact with children of his choice or hear ideas that his parents don't suppport.
> 
> The local school is filled with negroes, hispanics, jews, atheists and poor kids. They are a bad influence on little Jimmy
> 
> That is why Jimmy is home schooled
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Apparently, you were not encouraged as a child to interact with others who hold opinions different from your own, or to dispassionately consume and process information about them.  IOW, you're validating the opinions of many parents who choose to homeschool their children.  Why would parents want their children to endure ridicule from kids who talk like you write?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I interacted with many children and many teachers who had different opinions. I dealt with kids of different races, nationalities, religions, economic stature. I interacted with kids from throughout the US. I also dealt with bullies, racists, druggies, jocks, nerds, homosexuals, liberals, conservatives, atheists and fundamentalists
> 
> I learned to take in information from a wide range of sources and form my own opinions
> 
> Home school kids don't get that opportunity
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Another fabrication.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Today's home schooled kids can join co-ops, play sports, go to social events and dances, travel with their families and see the world that's beyond the walls of the government school classroom.  Why anyone would think it is superior to stuff a kid into a room with 30 other kids and a teacher whose highest priority is to make all of them sit still and be quiet for an hour is beyond me.
Click to expand...




You are correct.

As a member of several home school groups, we use many trips, co-ops, talent shows, science fairs, etc.


----------



## rightwinger

hadit said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> hadit said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> Homeschool parents get to control every aspect of their childs life. What they learn, who they can interact with, what they are exposed to
> 
> Little Jimmies friends are carefully selected for him. He has no free time where he can interact with children of his choice or hear ideas that his parents don't suppport.
> 
> The local school is filled with negroes, hispanics, jews, atheists and poor kids. They are a bad influence on little Jimmy
> 
> That is why Jimmy is home schooled
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Apparently, you were not encouraged as a child to interact with others who hold opinions different from your own, or to dispassionately consume and process information about them.  IOW, you're validating the opinions of many parents who choose to homeschool their children.  Why would parents want their children to endure ridicule from kids who talk like you write?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I interacted with many children and many teachers who had different opinions. I dealt with kids of different races, nationalities, religions, economic stature. I interacted with kids from throughout the US. I also dealt with bullies, racists, druggies, jocks, nerds, homosexuals, liberals, conservatives, atheists and fundamentalists
> 
> I learned to take in information from a wide range of sources and form my own opinions
> 
> Home school kids don't get that opportunity
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Total BS.  Home schooled kids are in co-ops, get to travel and see things that government schooled kids don't, because their families can pack up and go whenever they want to and take school with them.  They don't get bullied at school, they don't see their class mates or teachers get assaulted at school, they don't have peer pressure pushing them into sexual or drug experimentation at school.
> 
> You post like someone who never learned how to interact in an adult world, with respect for his/her peers.  Again, why would parents want their children to be harassed by kids with attitudes like yours?  Until home schooled kids stop outperforming government schooled kids by such wide margins, you really have little to complain about.
Click to expand...

 

Yes they do

And their social interactions are carefully monitored by their parents. Being harassed by other children is part of growing up. So is getting in an occasional   fight, learning dirty words, learning about sex and hanging out with some kids who would freak your parents out.
It makes you a stronger person. It teaches you how to deal with all kinds of people. Not just those who are carefully screened and selected for you


----------



## PoliticalChic

rightwinger said:


> hadit said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> hadit said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> Homeschool parents get to control every aspect of their childs life. What they learn, who they can interact with, what they are exposed to
> 
> Little Jimmies friends are carefully selected for him. He has no free time where he can interact with children of his choice or hear ideas that his parents don't suppport.
> 
> The local school is filled with negroes, hispanics, jews, atheists and poor kids. They are a bad influence on little Jimmy
> 
> That is why Jimmy is home schooled
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Apparently, you were not encouraged as a child to interact with others who hold opinions different from your own, or to dispassionately consume and process information about them.  IOW, you're validating the opinions of many parents who choose to homeschool their children.  Why would parents want their children to endure ridicule from kids who talk like you write?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I interacted with many children and many teachers who had different opinions. I dealt with kids of different races, nationalities, religions, economic stature. I interacted with kids from throughout the US. I also dealt with bullies, racists, druggies, jocks, nerds, homosexuals, liberals, conservatives, atheists and fundamentalists
> 
> I learned to take in information from a wide range of sources and form my own opinions
> 
> Home school kids don't get that opportunity
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Total BS.  Home schooled kids are in co-ops, get to travel and see things that government schooled kids don't, because their families can pack up and go whenever they want to and take school with them.  They don't get bullied at school, they don't see their class mates or teachers get assaulted at school, they don't have peer pressure pushing them into sexual or drug experimentation at school.
> 
> You post like someone who never learned how to interact in an adult world, with respect for his/her peers.  Again, why would parents want their children to be harassed by kids with attitudes like yours?  Until home schooled kids stop outperforming government schooled kids by such wide margins, you really have little to complain about.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Yes they do
> 
> And their social interactions are carefully monitored by their parents. Being harassed by other children is part of growing up. So is getting in an occasional   fight, learning dirty words, learning about sex and hanging out with some kids who would freak your parents out.
> It makes you a stronger person. It teaches you how to deal with all kinds of people. Not just those who are carefully screened and selected for you
Click to expand...



Another post gleaned from the Magic 8 Ball.


----------



## rightwinger

hadit said:


> PoliticalChic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> hadit said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> Homeschool parents get to control every aspect of their childs life. What they learn, who they can interact with, what they are exposed to
> 
> Little Jimmies friends are carefully selected for him. He has no free time where he can interact with children of his choice or hear ideas that his parents don't suppport.
> 
> The local school is filled with negroes, hispanics, jews, atheists and poor kids. They are a bad influence on little Jimmy
> 
> That is why Jimmy is home schooled
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Apparently, you were not encouraged as a child to interact with others who hold opinions different from your own, or to dispassionately consume and process information about them.  IOW, you're validating the opinions of many parents who choose to homeschool their children.  Why would parents want their children to endure ridicule from kids who talk like you write?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I interacted with many children and many teachers who had different opinions. I dealt with kids of different races, nationalities, religions, economic stature. I interacted with kids from throughout the US. I also dealt with bullies, racists, druggies, jocks, nerds, homosexuals, liberals, conservatives, atheists and fundamentalists
> 
> I learned to take in information from a wide range of sources and form my own opinions
> 
> Home school kids don't get that opportunity
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Another fabrication.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Why anyone would think it is better to stuff a kid into a room with 30 other kids whose highest priority is to be anywhere but there and a teacher whose highest priority is to make all of them sit still and be quiet for an hour is beyond me.
Click to expand...

 
It is not 30 other kids...it is hundreds

You get to interact with kids from different areas, different views, different goals

Just the experience of riding on a school bus is worth the price of admission


----------



## rightwinger

PoliticalChic said:


> hadit said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PoliticalChic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> hadit said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> Homeschool parents get to control every aspect of their childs life. What they learn, who they can interact with, what they are exposed to
> 
> Little Jimmies friends are carefully selected for him. He has no free time where he can interact with children of his choice or hear ideas that his parents don't suppport.
> 
> The local school is filled with negroes, hispanics, jews, atheists and poor kids. They are a bad influence on little Jimmy
> 
> That is why Jimmy is home schooled
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Apparently, you were not encouraged as a child to interact with others who hold opinions different from your own, or to dispassionately consume and process information about them.  IOW, you're validating the opinions of many parents who choose to homeschool their children.  Why would parents want their children to endure ridicule from kids who talk like you write?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I interacted with many children and many teachers who had different opinions. I dealt with kids of different races, nationalities, religions, economic stature. I interacted with kids from throughout the US. I also dealt with bullies, racists, druggies, jocks, nerds, homosexuals, liberals, conservatives, atheists and fundamentalists
> 
> I learned to take in information from a wide range of sources and form my own opinions
> 
> Home school kids don't get that opportunity
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Another fabrication.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Today's home schooled kids can join co-ops, play sports, go to social events and dances, travel with their families and see the world that's beyond the walls of the government school classroom.  Why anyone would think it is superior to stuff a kid into a room with 30 other kids and a teacher whose highest priority is to make all of them sit still and be quiet for an hour is beyond me.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You are correct.
> 
> As a member of several home school groups, we use many trips, co-ops, talent shows, science fairs, etc.
Click to expand...

 
_You are correct.
As a member of several home school groups, we use many trips, co-ops, talent shows, science fairs, etc._

I rest my case


----------



## hadit

rightwinger said:


> hadit said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> hadit said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> Homeschool parents get to control every aspect of their childs life. What they learn, who they can interact with, what they are exposed to
> 
> Little Jimmies friends are carefully selected for him. He has no free time where he can interact with children of his choice or hear ideas that his parents don't suppport.
> 
> The local school is filled with negroes, hispanics, jews, atheists and poor kids. They are a bad influence on little Jimmy
> 
> That is why Jimmy is home schooled
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Apparently, you were not encouraged as a child to interact with others who hold opinions different from your own, or to dispassionately consume and process information about them.  IOW, you're validating the opinions of many parents who choose to homeschool their children.  Why would parents want their children to endure ridicule from kids who talk like you write?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I interacted with many children and many teachers who had different opinions. I dealt with kids of different races, nationalities, religions, economic stature. I interacted with kids from throughout the US. I also dealt with bullies, racists, druggies, jocks, nerds, homosexuals, liberals, conservatives, atheists and fundamentalists
> 
> I learned to take in information from a wide range of sources and form my own opinions
> 
> Home school kids don't get that opportunity
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Total BS.  Home schooled kids are in co-ops, get to travel and see things that government schooled kids don't, because their families can pack up and go whenever they want to and take school with them.  They don't get bullied at school, they don't see their class mates or teachers get assaulted at school, they don't have peer pressure pushing them into sexual or drug experimentation at school.
> 
> You post like someone who never learned how to interact in an adult world, with respect for his/her peers.  Again, why would parents want their children to be harassed by kids with attitudes like yours?  Until home schooled kids stop outperforming government schooled kids by such wide margins, you really have little to complain about.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Yes they do
> 
> And their social interactions are carefully monitored by their parents. Being harassed by other children is part of growing up. So is getting in an occasional   fight, learning dirty words, learning about sex and hanging out with some kids who would freak your parents out.
> It makes you a stronger person. It teaches you how to deal with all kinds of people. Not just those who are carefully screened and selected for you
Click to expand...


Wouldn't it be better to teach more kids how to interact respectfully with each other like home schooled kids are?

Home schooled kids get exposed to all that after school hours.  Since they don't have to deal with the class clown or a fight in the back row, or the perpetually bored interrupting things, the home schooled kid can literally cover an entire day's worth of material in just a few hours.  That leaves a lot of other time for social interaction, and they get it.  They play with other kids, they get into scrapes, they learn dirty words and the latest about sex.  They just don't get it at school.


----------



## hadit

rightwinger said:


> hadit said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PoliticalChic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> hadit said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> Homeschool parents get to control every aspect of their childs life. What they learn, who they can interact with, what they are exposed to
> 
> Little Jimmies friends are carefully selected for him. He has no free time where he can interact with children of his choice or hear ideas that his parents don't suppport.
> 
> The local school is filled with negroes, hispanics, jews, atheists and poor kids. They are a bad influence on little Jimmy
> 
> That is why Jimmy is home schooled
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Apparently, you were not encouraged as a child to interact with others who hold opinions different from your own, or to dispassionately consume and process information about them.  IOW, you're validating the opinions of many parents who choose to homeschool their children.  Why would parents want their children to endure ridicule from kids who talk like you write?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I interacted with many children and many teachers who had different opinions. I dealt with kids of different races, nationalities, religions, economic stature. I interacted with kids from throughout the US. I also dealt with bullies, racists, druggies, jocks, nerds, homosexuals, liberals, conservatives, atheists and fundamentalists
> 
> I learned to take in information from a wide range of sources and form my own opinions
> 
> Home school kids don't get that opportunity
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Another fabrication.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Why anyone would think it is better to stuff a kid into a room with 30 other kids whose highest priority is to be anywhere but there and a teacher whose highest priority is to make all of them sit still and be quiet for an hour is beyond me.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> It is not 30 other kids...it is hundreds
Click to expand...


It's 30 in a class room.  And you don't interact with hundreds.  You have a handful of friends and interact with them.  The rest you see at a distance, but you don't interact with them.  You stay in your cliche.  That's the way school works.  



> You get to interact with kids from different areas, different views, different goals



Same with the co-ops.



> Just the experience of riding on a school bus is worth the price of admission



You get the same experience riding in the chartered bus with your co-op on a field trip.

Let's cut to the chase.  We KNOW home schooled kids are better educated.  You THINK they are short changed because they don't get bullied at school, or some such.  Why don't you post some statistics showing that home schooled kids are at a true disadvantage because of that?  While you're at it, take a look at what co-ops are offering today.


----------



## rightwinger

hadit said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> hadit said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> hadit said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> Homeschool parents get to control every aspect of their childs life. What they learn, who they can interact with, what they are exposed to
> 
> Little Jimmies friends are carefully selected for him. He has no free time where he can interact with children of his choice or hear ideas that his parents don't suppport.
> 
> The local school is filled with negroes, hispanics, jews, atheists and poor kids. They are a bad influence on little Jimmy
> 
> That is why Jimmy is home schooled
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Apparently, you were not encouraged as a child to interact with others who hold opinions different from your own, or to dispassionately consume and process information about them.  IOW, you're validating the opinions of many parents who choose to homeschool their children.  Why would parents want their children to endure ridicule from kids who talk like you write?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I interacted with many children and many teachers who had different opinions. I dealt with kids of different races, nationalities, religions, economic stature. I interacted with kids from throughout the US. I also dealt with bullies, racists, druggies, jocks, nerds, homosexuals, liberals, conservatives, atheists and fundamentalists
> 
> I learned to take in information from a wide range of sources and form my own opinions
> 
> Home school kids don't get that opportunity
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Total BS.  Home schooled kids are in co-ops, get to travel and see things that government schooled kids don't, because their families can pack up and go whenever they want to and take school with them.  They don't get bullied at school, they don't see their class mates or teachers get assaulted at school, they don't have peer pressure pushing them into sexual or drug experimentation at school.
> 
> You post like someone who never learned how to interact in an adult world, with respect for his/her peers.  Again, why would parents want their children to be harassed by kids with attitudes like yours?  Until home schooled kids stop outperforming government schooled kids by such wide margins, you really have little to complain about.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Yes they do
> 
> And their social interactions are carefully monitored by their parents. Being harassed by other children is part of growing up. So is getting in an occasional   fight, learning dirty words, learning about sex and hanging out with some kids who would freak your parents out.
> It makes you a stronger person. It teaches you how to deal with all kinds of people. Not just those who are carefully screened and selected for you
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Wouldn't it be better to teach more kids how to interact respectfully with each other like home schooled kids are?
> 
> Home schooled kids get exposed to all that after school hours.  Since they don't have to deal with the class clown or a fight in the back row, or the perpetually bored interrupting things, the home schooled kid can literally cover an entire day's worth of material in just a few hours.  That leaves a lot of other time for social interaction, and they get it.  They play with other kids, they get into scrapes, they learn dirty words and the latest about sex.  They just don't get it at school.
Click to expand...

 
Interact respectfully?

How the fuck are they going to learn how to post on USMB Messageboards?


----------



## rightwinger

hadit said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> hadit said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PoliticalChic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> hadit said:
> 
> 
> 
> Apparently, you were not encouraged as a child to interact with others who hold opinions different from your own, or to dispassionately consume and process information about them.  IOW, you're validating the opinions of many parents who choose to homeschool their children.  Why would parents want their children to endure ridicule from kids who talk like you write?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I interacted with many children and many teachers who had different opinions. I dealt with kids of different races, nationalities, religions, economic stature. I interacted with kids from throughout the US. I also dealt with bullies, racists, druggies, jocks, nerds, homosexuals, liberals, conservatives, atheists and fundamentalists
> 
> I learned to take in information from a wide range of sources and form my own opinions
> 
> Home school kids don't get that opportunity
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Another fabrication.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Why anyone would think it is better to stuff a kid into a room with 30 other kids whose highest priority is to be anywhere but there and a teacher whose highest priority is to make all of them sit still and be quiet for an hour is beyond me.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> It is not 30 other kids...it is hundreds
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> It's 30 in a class room.  And you don't interact with hundreds.  You have a handful of friends and interact with them.  The rest you see at a distance, but you don't interact with them.  You stay in your cliche.  That's the way school works.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You get to interact with kids from different areas, different views, different goals
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Same with the co-ops.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Just the experience of riding on a school bus is worth the price of admission
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You get the same experience riding in the chartered bus with your co-op on a field trip.
> 
> Let's cut to the chase.  We KNOW home schooled kids are better educated.  You THINK they are short changed because they don't get bullied at school, or some such.  Why don't you post some statistics showing that home schooled kids are at a true disadvantage because of that?  While you're at it, take a look at what co-ops are offering today.
Click to expand...

 
Who is in your co-op?


----------



## hadit

rightwinger said:


> hadit said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> hadit said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> hadit said:
> 
> 
> 
> Apparently, you were not encouraged as a child to interact with others who hold opinions different from your own, or to dispassionately consume and process information about them.  IOW, you're validating the opinions of many parents who choose to homeschool their children.  Why would parents want their children to endure ridicule from kids who talk like you write?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I interacted with many children and many teachers who had different opinions. I dealt with kids of different races, nationalities, religions, economic stature. I interacted with kids from throughout the US. I also dealt with bullies, racists, druggies, jocks, nerds, homosexuals, liberals, conservatives, atheists and fundamentalists
> 
> I learned to take in information from a wide range of sources and form my own opinions
> 
> Home school kids don't get that opportunity
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Total BS.  Home schooled kids are in co-ops, get to travel and see things that government schooled kids don't, because their families can pack up and go whenever they want to and take school with them.  They don't get bullied at school, they don't see their class mates or teachers get assaulted at school, they don't have peer pressure pushing them into sexual or drug experimentation at school.
> 
> You post like someone who never learned how to interact in an adult world, with respect for his/her peers.  Again, why would parents want their children to be harassed by kids with attitudes like yours?  Until home schooled kids stop outperforming government schooled kids by such wide margins, you really have little to complain about.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Yes they do
> 
> And their social interactions are carefully monitored by their parents. Being harassed by other children is part of growing up. So is getting in an occasional   fight, learning dirty words, learning about sex and hanging out with some kids who would freak your parents out.
> It makes you a stronger person. It teaches you how to deal with all kinds of people. Not just those who are carefully screened and selected for you
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Wouldn't it be better to teach more kids how to interact respectfully with each other like home schooled kids are?
> 
> Home schooled kids get exposed to all that after school hours.  Since they don't have to deal with the class clown or a fight in the back row, or the perpetually bored interrupting things, the home schooled kid can literally cover an entire day's worth of material in just a few hours.  That leaves a lot of other time for social interaction, and they get it.  They play with other kids, they get into scrapes, they learn dirty words and the latest about sex.  They just don't get it at school.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Interact respectfully?
> 
> How the fuck are they going to learn how to post on USMB Messageboards?
Click to expand...


Rather easily.  They'll be the ones everyone respects because they make their points without getting in the mud with the pigs.


----------



## hadit

rightwinger said:


> hadit said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> hadit said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PoliticalChic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> I interacted with many children and many teachers who had different opinions. I dealt with kids of different races, nationalities, religions, economic stature. I interacted with kids from throughout the US. I also dealt with bullies, racists, druggies, jocks, nerds, homosexuals, liberals, conservatives, atheists and fundamentalists
> 
> I learned to take in information from a wide range of sources and form my own opinions
> 
> Home school kids don't get that opportunity
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Another fabrication.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Why anyone would think it is better to stuff a kid into a room with 30 other kids whose highest priority is to be anywhere but there and a teacher whose highest priority is to make all of them sit still and be quiet for an hour is beyond me.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> It is not 30 other kids...it is hundreds
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> It's 30 in a class room.  And you don't interact with hundreds.  You have a handful of friends and interact with them.  The rest you see at a distance, but you don't interact with them.  You stay in your cliche.  That's the way school works.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You get to interact with kids from different areas, different views, different goals
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Same with the co-ops.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Just the experience of riding on a school bus is worth the price of admission
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You get the same experience riding in the chartered bus with your co-op on a field trip.
> 
> Let's cut to the chase.  We KNOW home schooled kids are better educated.  You THINK they are short changed because they don't get bullied at school, or some such.  Why don't you post some statistics showing that home schooled kids are at a true disadvantage because of that?  While you're at it, take a look at what co-ops are offering today.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Who is in your co-op?
Click to expand...


I don't have one.  My kids are adults, but during the short time we home schooled them, they were in a co-op with other kids from the surrounding area, IOW the same kids they would have gone to school with.


----------



## ogibillm

hadit said:


> Why anyone would think it is better to stuff a kid into a room with 30 other kids whose highest priority is to be anywhere but there and a teacher whose highest priority is to make all of them sit still and be quiet for an hour is beyond me.


so is it better to have a child in a classroom setting where they are the only priority for someone that doesn't know the subject and doesn't have teaching skills, or is it better to have them in a larger classroom setting taught by a professional with teaching skills and knowledge?


----------



## hadit

ogibillm said:


> hadit said:
> 
> 
> 
> Why anyone would think it is better to stuff a kid into a room with 30 other kids whose highest priority is to be anywhere but there and a teacher whose highest priority is to make all of them sit still and be quiet for an hour is beyond me.
> 
> 
> 
> so is it better to have a child in a classroom setting where they are the only priority for someone that doesn't know the subject and doesn't have teaching skills, or is it better to have them in a larger classroom setting taught by a professional with teaching skills and knowledge?
Click to expand...


When we home schooled, the requirement was that one of the parents had to have a college degree.  Both my wife and I do.  We also used an accredited online curriculum that allowed our kids to upload their assignments to be corrected by teachers with those skills and knowledge. 

The proof is in the outcome.  Home schooled kids significantly outperform their government schooled counterparts.  The parents are obviously getting the job done even if they are not professional teachers.


----------



## ogibillm

this is anecdotal but i'll tell the story anyhow. i knew a kid, growing up, quite a bit younger than myself. my family and his attended the same mass, and i volunteered as an assistant sunday school teacher and had him when he was in kindergarten. anyhow, he loved school. absolutely loved it. he was a smart kid, too, and his parents were involved. he also had an older sister, also smart, but for some reason their mother was a bit... off. she seemed to want to find conditions and problems with her kids, who were for all accounts normal.
anyhow, long story short, his mother wound up taking her kids out of the public schools and home schooling them because the school would not be as accommodating as she demanded for her special children. so not knowing this, i asked this now 2nd grade aged kid how school was going after mass one day, and he broke down in tears because he didn't get to go to school any more.

as time went on i'm sure he adjusted, and his mother was always pointing out to anyone who would listen how smart he was. he was always smart, though. homeschooling had nothing to do with it. it just took him away from the school, teachers, and friends that he loved.


----------



## ogibillm

hadit said:


> ogibillm said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> hadit said:
> 
> 
> 
> Why anyone would think it is better to stuff a kid into a room with 30 other kids whose highest priority is to be anywhere but there and a teacher whose highest priority is to make all of them sit still and be quiet for an hour is beyond me.
> 
> 
> 
> so is it better to have a child in a classroom setting where they are the only priority for someone that doesn't know the subject and doesn't have teaching skills, or is it better to have them in a larger classroom setting taught by a professional with teaching skills and knowledge?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> When we home schooled, the requirement was that one of the parents had to have a college degree.  Both my wife and I do.  We also used an accredited online curriculum that allowed our kids to upload their assignments to be corrected by teachers with those skills and knowledge.
> 
> The proof is in the outcome.  Home schooled kids significantly outperform their government schooled counterparts.  The parents are obviously getting the job done even if they are not professional teachers.
Click to expand...

what proof of that is there?


----------



## gipper

rightwinger said:


> hadit said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> hadit said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> Homeschool parents get to control every aspect of their childs life. What they learn, who they can interact with, what they are exposed to
> 
> Little Jimmies friends are carefully selected for him. He has no free time where he can interact with children of his choice or hear ideas that his parents don't suppport.
> 
> The local school is filled with negroes, hispanics, jews, atheists and poor kids. They are a bad influence on little Jimmy
> 
> That is why Jimmy is home schooled
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Apparently, you were not encouraged as a child to interact with others who hold opinions different from your own, or to dispassionately consume and process information about them.  IOW, you're validating the opinions of many parents who choose to homeschool their children.  Why would parents want their children to endure ridicule from kids who talk like you write?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I interacted with many children and many teachers who had different opinions. I dealt with kids of different races, nationalities, religions, economic stature. I interacted with kids from throughout the US. I also dealt with bullies, racists, druggies, jocks, nerds, homosexuals, liberals, conservatives, atheists and fundamentalists
> 
> I learned to take in information from a wide range of sources and form my own opinions
> 
> Home school kids don't get that opportunity
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Total BS.  Home schooled kids are in co-ops, get to travel and see things that government schooled kids don't, because their families can pack up and go whenever they want to and take school with them.  They don't get bullied at school, they don't see their class mates or teachers get assaulted at school, they don't have peer pressure pushing them into sexual or drug experimentation at school.
> 
> You post like someone who never learned how to interact in an adult world, with respect for his/her peers.  Again, why would parents want their children to be harassed by kids with attitudes like yours?  Until home schooled kids stop outperforming government schooled kids by such wide margins, you really have little to complain about.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Yes they do
> 
> And their social interactions are carefully monitored by their parents. Being harassed by other children is part of growing up. So is getting in an occasional   fight, learning dirty words, learning about sex and hanging out with some kids who would freak your parents out.
> It makes you a stronger person. It teaches you how to deal with all kinds of people. Not just those who are carefully screened and selected for you
Click to expand...


We certainly CAN'T allow parents the right to monitor or control their children's education, in the socialist shit hole you so desire...just as was and is done in ALL totalitarian societies. 

After all, it takes a village to raise a child.  In your case, the village raised an idiot.


----------



## ogibillm

gipper said:


> We certainly CAN'T allow parents the right to monitor or control their children's education, in the socialist shit hole you so desire...just as was and is done in ALL totalitarian societies.
> 
> After all, it takes a village to raise a child.  In your case, the village raised an idiot.


are parents of public school kids not allowed to teach, work with, or discuss education with their own children now?


----------



## gipper

ogibillm said:


> gipper said:
> 
> 
> 
> We certainly CAN'T allow parents the right to monitor or control their children's education, in the socialist shit hole you so desire...just as was and is done in ALL totalitarian societies.
> 
> After all, it takes a village to raise a child.  In your case, the village raised an idiot.
> 
> 
> 
> are parents of public school kids not allowed to teach, work with, or discuss education with their own children now?
Click to expand...


Why would you ask such a dumb question?


----------



## hadit

ogibillm said:


> hadit said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ogibillm said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> hadit said:
> 
> 
> 
> Why anyone would think it is better to stuff a kid into a room with 30 other kids whose highest priority is to be anywhere but there and a teacher whose highest priority is to make all of them sit still and be quiet for an hour is beyond me.
> 
> 
> 
> so is it better to have a child in a classroom setting where they are the only priority for someone that doesn't know the subject and doesn't have teaching skills, or is it better to have them in a larger classroom setting taught by a professional with teaching skills and knowledge?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> When we home schooled, the requirement was that one of the parents had to have a college degree.  Both my wife and I do.  We also used an accredited online curriculum that allowed our kids to upload their assignments to be corrected by teachers with those skills and knowledge.
> 
> The proof is in the outcome.  Home schooled kids significantly outperform their government schooled counterparts.  The parents are obviously getting the job done even if they are not professional teachers.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> what proof of that is there?
Click to expand...


Are you seriously playing ignorant here and pretending you really don't know?


----------



## ogibillm

hadit said:


> ogibillm said:
> 
> 
> 
> what proof of that is there?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Are you seriously playing ignorant here and pretending you really don't know?
Click to expand...

if there's proof i haven't seen it. can you provide it?


----------



## hadit

ogibillm said:


> this is anecdotal but i'll tell the story anyhow. i knew a kid, growing up, quite a bit younger than myself. my family and his attended the same mass, and i volunteered as an assistant sunday school teacher and had him when he was in kindergarten. anyhow, he loved school. absolutely loved it. he was a smart kid, too, and his parents were involved. he also had an older sister, also smart, but for some reason their mother was a bit... off. she seemed to want to find conditions and problems with her kids, who were for all accounts normal.
> anyhow, long story short, his mother wound up taking her kids out of the public schools and home schooling them because the school would not be as accommodating as she demanded for her special children. so not knowing this, i asked this now 2nd grade aged kid how school was going after mass one day, and he broke down in tears because he didn't get to go to school any more.
> 
> as time went on i'm sure he adjusted, and his mother was always pointing out to anyone who would listen how smart he was. he was always smart, though. homeschooling had nothing to do with it. it just took him away from the school, teachers, and friends that he loved.



For every one of those, there are more that absolutely hated school and couldn't wait to get out.  The government school model is, "One size fits all", and kids are expected to just sit down and shut up.  If a kid is bored and very active or easily distracted, there's a pill for that.  If one of them has Aspbergers and is extremely bright but can't handle a lot of peripheral stimuli, there's a special ed class for that, where they're dumped and not expected to learn anything.


----------



## PoliticalChic

rightwinger said:


> PoliticalChic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> hadit said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PoliticalChic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> hadit said:
> 
> 
> 
> Apparently, you were not encouraged as a child to interact with others who hold opinions different from your own, or to dispassionately consume and process information about them.  IOW, you're validating the opinions of many parents who choose to homeschool their children.  Why would parents want their children to endure ridicule from kids who talk like you write?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I interacted with many children and many teachers who had different opinions. I dealt with kids of different races, nationalities, religions, economic stature. I interacted with kids from throughout the US. I also dealt with bullies, racists, druggies, jocks, nerds, homosexuals, liberals, conservatives, atheists and fundamentalists
> 
> I learned to take in information from a wide range of sources and form my own opinions
> 
> Home school kids don't get that opportunity
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Another fabrication.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Today's home schooled kids can join co-ops, play sports, go to social events and dances, travel with their families and see the world that's beyond the walls of the government school classroom.  Why anyone would think it is superior to stuff a kid into a room with 30 other kids and a teacher whose highest priority is to make all of them sit still and be quiet for an hour is beyond me.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You are correct.
> 
> As a member of several home school groups, we use many trips, co-ops, talent shows, science fairs, etc.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> _You are correct.
> As a member of several home school groups, we use many trips, co-ops, talent shows, science fairs, etc._
> 
> I rest my case
Click to expand...




And


ogibillm said:


> hadit said:
> 
> 
> 
> Why anyone would think it is better to stuff a kid into a room with 30 other kids whose highest priority is to be anywhere but there and a teacher whose highest priority is to make all of them sit still and be quiet for an hour is beyond me.
> 
> 
> 
> so is it better to have a child in a classroom setting where they are the only priority for someone that doesn't know the subject and doesn't have teaching skills, or is it better to have them in a larger classroom setting taught by a professional with teaching skills and knowledge?
Click to expand...




I find that frequently you attempt to engage in a discussion about which you have zero knowledge.

This post of yours certainly qualifies as such.


----------



## hadit

ogibillm said:


> hadit said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ogibillm said:
> 
> 
> 
> what proof of that is there?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Are you seriously playing ignorant here and pretending you really don't know?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> if there's proof i haven't seen it. can you provide it?
Click to expand...


Here's just one place to start. Homeschooled Students Well-Prepared For College Study Finds



> Students coming from a home school graduated college at a higher rate than their peers -- 66.7 percent compared to 57.5 percent -- and earned higher grade point averages along the way, according to a study that compared students at one doctoral university from 2004-2009.
> 
> They're also better socialized than most high school students, says Joe Kelly, anauthor and parenting expert who home-schooled his twin daughters.
> 
> "I know that sounds counterintuitive because they're not around dozens or hundreds of other kids every day, but I would argue that's why they're better socialized," Kelly says. "Many home-schoolers play on athletic teams, but they're also interactive with students of different ages."
> 
> Home-schooled students often spend less time in class, Kelly says, giving them more opportunity to get out into the world and engage with adults and teens alike.
> 
> "The socialization thing is really a nonissue for most home schoolers," he says. "They're getting a lot of it."


----------



## PoliticalChic

ogibillm said:


> gipper said:
> 
> 
> 
> We certainly CAN'T allow parents the right to monitor or control their children's education, in the socialist shit hole you so desire...just as was and is done in ALL totalitarian societies.
> 
> After all, it takes a village to raise a child.  In your case, the village raised an idiot.
> 
> 
> 
> are parents of public school kids not allowed to teach, work with, or discuss education with their own children now?
Click to expand...




The result of standardized tests tend to indicate that what you suggest, isn't happening.


----------



## ogibillm

PoliticalChic said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PoliticalChic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> hadit said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PoliticalChic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> I interacted with many children and many teachers who had different opinions. I dealt with kids of different races, nationalities, religions, economic stature. I interacted with kids from throughout the US. I also dealt with bullies, racists, druggies, jocks, nerds, homosexuals, liberals, conservatives, atheists and fundamentalists
> 
> I learned to take in information from a wide range of sources and form my own opinions
> 
> Home school kids don't get that opportunity
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Another fabrication.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Today's home schooled kids can join co-ops, play sports, go to social events and dances, travel with their families and see the world that's beyond the walls of the government school classroom.  Why anyone would think it is superior to stuff a kid into a room with 30 other kids and a teacher whose highest priority is to make all of them sit still and be quiet for an hour is beyond me.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You are correct.
> 
> As a member of several home school groups, we use many trips, co-ops, talent shows, science fairs, etc.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> _You are correct.
> As a member of several home school groups, we use many trips, co-ops, talent shows, science fairs, etc._
> 
> I rest my case
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And
> 
> 
> ogibillm said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> hadit said:
> 
> 
> 
> Why anyone would think it is better to stuff a kid into a room with 30 other kids whose highest priority is to be anywhere but there and a teacher whose highest priority is to make all of them sit still and be quiet for an hour is beyond me.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> so is it better to have a child in a classroom setting where they are the only priority for someone that doesn't know the subject and doesn't have teaching skills, or is it better to have them in a larger classroom setting taught by a professional with teaching skills and knowledge?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I find that frequently you attempt to engage in a discussion about which you have zero knowledge.
> 
> This post of yours certainly qualifies as such.
Click to expand...

i find you frequently like to copy and paste a bunch of stuff that doesn't really relate, like when you copied and pasted about the classroom size of catholic private schools versus other private schools when talking about public school


hadit said:


> ogibillm said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> hadit said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ogibillm said:
> 
> 
> 
> what proof of that is there?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Are you seriously playing ignorant here and pretending you really don't know?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> if there's proof i haven't seen it. can you provide it?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Here's just one place to start. Homeschooled Students Well-Prepared For College Study Finds
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Students coming from a home school graduated college at a higher rate than their peers -- 66.7 percent compared to 57.5 percent -- and earned higher grade point averages along the way, according to a study that compared students at one doctoral university from 2004-2009.
> 
> They're also better socialized than most high school students, says Joe Kelly, anauthor and parenting expert who home-schooled his twin daughters.
> 
> "I know that sounds counterintuitive because they're not around dozens or hundreds of other kids every day, but I would argue that's why they're better socialized," Kelly says. "Many home-schoolers play on athletic teams, but they're also interactive with students of different ages."
> 
> Home-schooled students often spend less time in class, Kelly says, giving them more opportunity to get out into the world and engage with adults and teens alike.
> 
> "The socialization thing is really a nonissue for most home schoolers," he says. "They're getting a lot of it."
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...

does the study show correlation or causation?


----------



## ogibillm

PoliticalChic said:


> ogibillm said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> gipper said:
> 
> 
> 
> We certainly CAN'T allow parents the right to monitor or control their children's education, in the socialist shit hole you so desire...just as was and is done in ALL totalitarian societies.
> 
> After all, it takes a village to raise a child.  In your case, the village raised an idiot.
> 
> 
> 
> are parents of public school kids not allowed to teach, work with, or discuss education with their own children now?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The result of standardized tests tend to indicate that what you suggest, isn't happening.
Click to expand...

how so?


----------



## hadit

ogibillm said:


> PoliticalChic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PoliticalChic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> hadit said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PoliticalChic said:
> 
> 
> 
> Another fabrication.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Today's home schooled kids can join co-ops, play sports, go to social events and dances, travel with their families and see the world that's beyond the walls of the government school classroom.  Why anyone would think it is superior to stuff a kid into a room with 30 other kids and a teacher whose highest priority is to make all of them sit still and be quiet for an hour is beyond me.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You are correct.
> 
> As a member of several home school groups, we use many trips, co-ops, talent shows, science fairs, etc.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> _You are correct.
> As a member of several home school groups, we use many trips, co-ops, talent shows, science fairs, etc._
> 
> I rest my case
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And
> 
> 
> ogibillm said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> hadit said:
> 
> 
> 
> Why anyone would think it is better to stuff a kid into a room with 30 other kids whose highest priority is to be anywhere but there and a teacher whose highest priority is to make all of them sit still and be quiet for an hour is beyond me.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> so is it better to have a child in a classroom setting where they are the only priority for someone that doesn't know the subject and doesn't have teaching skills, or is it better to have them in a larger classroom setting taught by a professional with teaching skills and knowledge?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I find that frequently you attempt to engage in a discussion about which you have zero knowledge.
> 
> This post of yours certainly qualifies as such.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> i find you frequently like to copy and paste a bunch of stuff that doesn't really relate, like when you copied and pasted about the classroom size of catholic private schools versus other private schools when talking about public school
> 
> 
> hadit said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ogibillm said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> hadit said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ogibillm said:
> 
> 
> 
> what proof of that is there?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Are you seriously playing ignorant here and pretending you really don't know?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> if there's proof i haven't seen it. can you provide it?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Here's just one place to start. Homeschooled Students Well-Prepared For College Study Finds
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Students coming from a home school graduated college at a higher rate than their peers -- 66.7 percent compared to 57.5 percent -- and earned higher grade point averages along the way, according to a study that compared students at one doctoral university from 2004-2009.
> 
> They're also better socialized than most high school students, says Joe Kelly, anauthor and parenting expert who home-schooled his twin daughters.
> 
> "I know that sounds counterintuitive because they're not around dozens or hundreds of other kids every day, but I would argue that's why they're better socialized," Kelly says. "Many home-schoolers play on athletic teams, but they're also interactive with students of different ages."
> 
> Home-schooled students often spend less time in class, Kelly says, giving them more opportunity to get out into the world and engage with adults and teens alike.
> 
> "The socialization thing is really a nonissue for most home schoolers," he says. "They're getting a lot of it."
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> does the study show correlation or causation?
Click to expand...


Read it for yourself so you can draw your own conclusions.  Just in case you've forgotten, here's the link again.

http://i.bnet.com/blogs/homeschool.pdf


----------



## ogibillm

hadit said:


> ogibillm said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PoliticalChic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PoliticalChic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> hadit said:
> 
> 
> 
> Today's home schooled kids can join co-ops, play sports, go to social events and dances, travel with their families and see the world that's beyond the walls of the government school classroom.  Why anyone would think it is superior to stuff a kid into a room with 30 other kids and a teacher whose highest priority is to make all of them sit still and be quiet for an hour is beyond me.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You are correct.
> 
> As a member of several home school groups, we use many trips, co-ops, talent shows, science fairs, etc.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> _You are correct.
> As a member of several home school groups, we use many trips, co-ops, talent shows, science fairs, etc._
> 
> I rest my case
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And
> 
> 
> ogibillm said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> hadit said:
> 
> 
> 
> Why anyone would think it is better to stuff a kid into a room with 30 other kids whose highest priority is to be anywhere but there and a teacher whose highest priority is to make all of them sit still and be quiet for an hour is beyond me.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> so is it better to have a child in a classroom setting where they are the only priority for someone that doesn't know the subject and doesn't have teaching skills, or is it better to have them in a larger classroom setting taught by a professional with teaching skills and knowledge?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I find that frequently you attempt to engage in a discussion about which you have zero knowledge.
> 
> This post of yours certainly qualifies as such.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> i find you frequently like to copy and paste a bunch of stuff that doesn't really relate, like when you copied and pasted about the classroom size of catholic private schools versus other private schools when talking about public school
> 
> 
> hadit said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ogibillm said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> hadit said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ogibillm said:
> 
> 
> 
> what proof of that is there?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Are you seriously playing ignorant here and pretending you really don't know?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> if there's proof i haven't seen it. can you provide it?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Here's just one place to start. Homeschooled Students Well-Prepared For College Study Finds
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Students coming from a home school graduated college at a higher rate than their peers -- 66.7 percent compared to 57.5 percent -- and earned higher grade point averages along the way, according to a study that compared students at one doctoral university from 2004-2009.
> 
> They're also better socialized than most high school students, says Joe Kelly, anauthor and parenting expert who home-schooled his twin daughters.
> 
> "I know that sounds counterintuitive because they're not around dozens or hundreds of other kids every day, but I would argue that's why they're better socialized," Kelly says. "Many home-schoolers play on athletic teams, but they're also interactive with students of different ages."
> 
> Home-schooled students often spend less time in class, Kelly says, giving them more opportunity to get out into the world and engage with adults and teens alike.
> 
> "The socialization thing is really a nonissue for most home schoolers," he says. "They're getting a lot of it."
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> does the study show correlation or causation?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Read it for yourself so you can draw your own conclusions.
Click to expand...

i believe it's showing correlation, not causation.
in no way does the study account for parents that have attended college, how far from home a student attends school, the economic background of the student, or even degrees pursued.

in other words i can see that at first glance it would make someone believe that homeschooled kids are doing better in college because of their homeschooling, but i just don't see the study supporting homeschooling as the cause.


----------



## hadit

ogibillm said:


> hadit said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ogibillm said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PoliticalChic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PoliticalChic said:
> 
> 
> 
> You are correct.
> 
> As a member of several home school groups, we use many trips, co-ops, talent shows, science fairs, etc.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _You are correct.
> As a member of several home school groups, we use many trips, co-ops, talent shows, science fairs, etc._
> 
> I rest my case
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And
> 
> 
> ogibillm said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> hadit said:
> 
> 
> 
> Why anyone would think it is better to stuff a kid into a room with 30 other kids whose highest priority is to be anywhere but there and a teacher whose highest priority is to make all of them sit still and be quiet for an hour is beyond me.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> so is it better to have a child in a classroom setting where they are the only priority for someone that doesn't know the subject and doesn't have teaching skills, or is it better to have them in a larger classroom setting taught by a professional with teaching skills and knowledge?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I find that frequently you attempt to engage in a discussion about which you have zero knowledge.
> 
> This post of yours certainly qualifies as such.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> i find you frequently like to copy and paste a bunch of stuff that doesn't really relate, like when you copied and pasted about the classroom size of catholic private schools versus other private schools when talking about public school
> 
> 
> hadit said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ogibillm said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> hadit said:
> 
> 
> 
> Are you seriously playing ignorant here and pretending you really don't know?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> if there's proof i haven't seen it. can you provide it?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Here's just one place to start. Homeschooled Students Well-Prepared For College Study Finds
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Students coming from a home school graduated college at a higher rate than their peers -- 66.7 percent compared to 57.5 percent -- and earned higher grade point averages along the way, according to a study that compared students at one doctoral university from 2004-2009.
> 
> They're also better socialized than most high school students, says Joe Kelly, anauthor and parenting expert who home-schooled his twin daughters.
> 
> "I know that sounds counterintuitive because they're not around dozens or hundreds of other kids every day, but I would argue that's why they're better socialized," Kelly says. "Many home-schoolers play on athletic teams, but they're also interactive with students of different ages."
> 
> Home-schooled students often spend less time in class, Kelly says, giving them more opportunity to get out into the world and engage with adults and teens alike.
> 
> "The socialization thing is really a nonissue for most home schoolers," he says. "They're getting a lot of it."
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> does the study show correlation or causation?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Read it for yourself so you can draw your own conclusions.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> i believe it's showing correlation, not causation.
> in no way does the study account for parents that have attended college, how far from home a student attends school, the economic background of the student, or even degrees pursued.
> 
> in other words i can see that at first glance it would make someone believe that homeschooled kids are doing better in college because of their homeschooling, but i just don't see the study supporting homeschooling as the cause.
Click to expand...


With a few exceptions, most home schooling parents care very deeply about the quality of the education their kids receive, thus ensuring their home schooled kids receive a good education.  Parents who send their kids to government schools can ALSO achieve a better education for their kids if they are care deeply and are involved, but home schooling parents have more tools at their disposal to actually do something about it.  The bottom line remains, parents who home school have better opportunities for their kids to get a better education.  Tell you what, find a study that concludes home schooled kids do WORSE than their government schooled counterparts and post it for discussion.


----------



## rightwinger

ogibillm said:


> hadit said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ogibillm said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PoliticalChic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PoliticalChic said:
> 
> 
> 
> You are correct.
> 
> As a member of several home school groups, we use many trips, co-ops, talent shows, science fairs, etc.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _You are correct.
> As a member of several home school groups, we use many trips, co-ops, talent shows, science fairs, etc._
> 
> I rest my case
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And
> 
> 
> ogibillm said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> hadit said:
> 
> 
> 
> Why anyone would think it is better to stuff a kid into a room with 30 other kids whose highest priority is to be anywhere but there and a teacher whose highest priority is to make all of them sit still and be quiet for an hour is beyond me.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> so is it better to have a child in a classroom setting where they are the only priority for someone that doesn't know the subject and doesn't have teaching skills, or is it better to have them in a larger classroom setting taught by a professional with teaching skills and knowledge?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I find that frequently you attempt to engage in a discussion about which you have zero knowledge.
> 
> This post of yours certainly qualifies as such.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> i find you frequently like to copy and paste a bunch of stuff that doesn't really relate, like when you copied and pasted about the classroom size of catholic private schools versus other private schools when talking about public school
> 
> 
> hadit said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ogibillm said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> hadit said:
> 
> 
> 
> Are you seriously playing ignorant here and pretending you really don't know?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> if there's proof i haven't seen it. can you provide it?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Here's just one place to start. Homeschooled Students Well-Prepared For College Study Finds
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Students coming from a home school graduated college at a higher rate than their peers -- 66.7 percent compared to 57.5 percent -- and earned higher grade point averages along the way, according to a study that compared students at one doctoral university from 2004-2009.
> 
> They're also better socialized than most high school students, says Joe Kelly, anauthor and parenting expert who home-schooled his twin daughters.
> 
> "I know that sounds counterintuitive because they're not around dozens or hundreds of other kids every day, but I would argue that's why they're better socialized," Kelly says. "Many home-schoolers play on athletic teams, but they're also interactive with students of different ages."
> 
> Home-schooled students often spend less time in class, Kelly says, giving them more opportunity to get out into the world and engage with adults and teens alike.
> 
> "The socialization thing is really a nonissue for most home schoolers," he says. "They're getting a lot of it."
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> does the study show correlation or causation?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Read it for yourself so you can draw your own conclusions.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> i believe it's showing correlation, not causation.
> in no way does the study account for parents that have attended college, how far from home a student attends school, the economic background of the student, or even degrees pursued.
> 
> in other words i can see that at first glance it would make someone believe that homeschooled kids are doing better in college because of their homeschooling, but i just don't see the study supporting homeschooling as the cause.
Click to expand...

 
All it shows is that homeschoolers do better than the average student

It does not show whether homeschool students would have performed worse (or as well or better) in a public school


----------



## ogibillm

hadit said:


> ogibillm said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> hadit said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ogibillm said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PoliticalChic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> _You are correct.
> As a member of several home school groups, we use many trips, co-ops, talent shows, science fairs, etc._
> 
> I rest my case
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And
> 
> 
> ogibillm said:
> 
> 
> 
> so is it better to have a child in a classroom setting where they are the only priority for someone that doesn't know the subject and doesn't have teaching skills, or is it better to have them in a larger classroom setting taught by a professional with teaching skills and knowledge?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I find that frequently you attempt to engage in a discussion about which you have zero knowledge.
> 
> This post of yours certainly qualifies as such.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> i find you frequently like to copy and paste a bunch of stuff that doesn't really relate, like when you copied and pasted about the classroom size of catholic private schools versus other private schools when talking about public school
> 
> 
> hadit said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ogibillm said:
> 
> 
> 
> if there's proof i haven't seen it. can you provide it?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Here's just one place to start. Homeschooled Students Well-Prepared For College Study Finds
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Students coming from a home school graduated college at a higher rate than their peers -- 66.7 percent compared to 57.5 percent -- and earned higher grade point averages along the way, according to a study that compared students at one doctoral university from 2004-2009.
> 
> They're also better socialized than most high school students, says Joe Kelly, anauthor and parenting expert who home-schooled his twin daughters.
> 
> "I know that sounds counterintuitive because they're not around dozens or hundreds of other kids every day, but I would argue that's why they're better socialized," Kelly says. "Many home-schoolers play on athletic teams, but they're also interactive with students of different ages."
> 
> Home-schooled students often spend less time in class, Kelly says, giving them more opportunity to get out into the world and engage with adults and teens alike.
> 
> "The socialization thing is really a nonissue for most home schoolers," he says. "They're getting a lot of it."
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> does the study show correlation or causation?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Read it for yourself so you can draw your own conclusions.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> i believe it's showing correlation, not causation.
> in no way does the study account for parents that have attended college, how far from home a student attends school, the economic background of the student, or even degrees pursued.
> 
> in other words i can see that at first glance it would make someone believe that homeschooled kids are doing better in college because of their homeschooling, but i just don't see the study supporting homeschooling as the cause.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> With a few exceptions, most home schooling parents care very deeply about the quality of the education their kids receive, thus ensuring their home schooled kids receive a good education.  Parents who send their kids to government schools can ALSO achieve a better education for their kids if they are care deeply and are involved, but home schooling parents have more tools at their disposal to actually do something about it.  The bottom line remains, parents who home school have better opportunities for their kids to get a better education.  Tell you what, find a study that concludes home schooled kids do WORSE than their government schooled counterparts and post it for discussion.
Click to expand...

i'd say home schooled kids have different tools available, not better


----------



## Samson

rightwinger said:


> gipper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> Home schooling is a great option for many parents. You get to control all the information your children are subjected to and they don't have to go to school with negroes or poor people
> 
> 
> 
> 
> More demonizing and racism from a leftist fool.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Lets cut to the chase..
> 
> Homeschool parents declare....I am such a great parent, I homeschool my child because I want my child to receive the best education possible
> 
> In reality, they homeschool because they are afraid their child may be exposed to ideas the parents don't support and "God forbid" they are exposed to negroes, gays, hispanics, poor kids, atheists and even worse......liberals
Click to expand...


So what?


----------



## Samson

rightwinger said:


> All it shows is that homeschoolers do better than the average student
> 
> It does not show whether homeschool students would have performed worse (or as well or better) in a public school



Data shows that homeschooled kids learned what they needed to learn to do well on the test that generated the data.

The test is given to measure learning.

Homeschooled kids score higher on the test: they learn more.

What's the problem? You have a problem with kids learning more?


----------



## ogibillm

Samson said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> All it shows is that homeschoolers do better than the average student
> 
> It does not show whether homeschool students would have performed worse (or as well or better) in a public school
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Data shows that homeschooled kids learned what they needed to learn to do well on the test that generated the data.
> 
> The test is given to measure learning.
> 
> Homeschooled kids score higher on the test: they learn more.
> 
> What's the problem? You have a problem with kids learning more?
Click to expand...

the problem is claiming that they score better because they were homeschooled. that may or may not be the case, but it hasn't been proven here that the cause of better performance is homeschooling.


----------



## rightwinger

Samson said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> All it shows is that homeschoolers do better than the average student
> 
> It does not show whether homeschool students would have performed worse (or as well or better) in a public school
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Data shows that homeschooled kids learned what they needed to learn to do well on the test that generated the data.
> 
> The test is given to measure learning.
> 
> Homeschooled kids score higher on the test: they learn more.
> 
> What's the problem? You have a problem with kids learning more?
Click to expand...

 
No...I have a problem with your conclusions

A homeschooled kid with educated parents who are involved in his education will perform better than average whether he is homeschooled or in a public school


----------



## Andylusion

hadit said:


> http://i.bnet.com/blogs/homeschool.pdf



Perfect example of what I'm talking about.   Complete crap.   Clearly that document is cheery picking evidence by using all the recent data, and we know how doing that skews the results.

Second, the time frame is clearly, and obviously being skewed because 2004 to 2009, Bush was president, and we know all research was skewed by Bush being president.   Obama was only in office for 1 of the years the researched covered, and clearly would have shown much different results if more Obama years had been counted.

Third, the research included Catholic schools, and by merely including such religious institution, it calls into question all the other data used, since we all know 'thou shalt not learn' is part of the catechism.    Therefore the fact people from a religious based learning institution, had higher average marks than public schools, we know this is not possible, and therefore all the data is invalidated.

Lastly, the entire paper is completely discredited by focusing on ACT scores of Math, English, Writing, and Science.  The very fact that they focused on such outdated topics, instead of ACT Environmentalism, Multiculturalism, Ebonics, Common Core.

Seriously, how can you post this tripe, and expect us to take it seriously?


----------



## hadit

rightwinger said:


> ogibillm said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> hadit said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ogibillm said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PoliticalChic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> _You are correct.
> As a member of several home school groups, we use many trips, co-ops, talent shows, science fairs, etc._
> 
> I rest my case
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And
> 
> 
> ogibillm said:
> 
> 
> 
> so is it better to have a child in a classroom setting where they are the only priority for someone that doesn't know the subject and doesn't have teaching skills, or is it better to have them in a larger classroom setting taught by a professional with teaching skills and knowledge?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I find that frequently you attempt to engage in a discussion about which you have zero knowledge.
> 
> This post of yours certainly qualifies as such.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> i find you frequently like to copy and paste a bunch of stuff that doesn't really relate, like when you copied and pasted about the classroom size of catholic private schools versus other private schools when talking about public school
> 
> 
> hadit said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ogibillm said:
> 
> 
> 
> if there's proof i haven't seen it. can you provide it?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Here's just one place to start. Homeschooled Students Well-Prepared For College Study Finds
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Students coming from a home school graduated college at a higher rate than their peers -- 66.7 percent compared to 57.5 percent -- and earned higher grade point averages along the way, according to a study that compared students at one doctoral university from 2004-2009.
> 
> They're also better socialized than most high school students, says Joe Kelly, anauthor and parenting expert who home-schooled his twin daughters.
> 
> "I know that sounds counterintuitive because they're not around dozens or hundreds of other kids every day, but I would argue that's why they're better socialized," Kelly says. "Many home-schoolers play on athletic teams, but they're also interactive with students of different ages."
> 
> Home-schooled students often spend less time in class, Kelly says, giving them more opportunity to get out into the world and engage with adults and teens alike.
> 
> "The socialization thing is really a nonissue for most home schoolers," he says. "They're getting a lot of it."
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> does the study show correlation or causation?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Read it for yourself so you can draw your own conclusions.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> i believe it's showing correlation, not causation.
> in no way does the study account for parents that have attended college, how far from home a student attends school, the economic background of the student, or even degrees pursued.
> 
> in other words i can see that at first glance it would make someone believe that homeschooled kids are doing better in college because of their homeschooling, but i just don't see the study supporting homeschooling as the cause.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> All it shows is that homeschoolers do better than the average student
> 
> It does not show whether homeschool students would have performed worse (or as well or better) in a public school
Click to expand...


Irrelevant.  To make that claim plausible, you have to accept the idea that rural students are generally superior in intellect than urban students.  I don't accept that.


----------



## hadit

ogibillm said:


> hadit said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ogibillm said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> hadit said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ogibillm said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PoliticalChic said:
> 
> 
> 
> And
> I find that frequently you attempt to engage in a discussion about which you have zero knowledge.
> 
> This post of yours certainly qualifies as such.
> 
> 
> 
> i find you frequently like to copy and paste a bunch of stuff that doesn't really relate, like when you copied and pasted about the classroom size of catholic private schools versus other private schools when talking about public school
> 
> 
> hadit said:
> 
> 
> 
> Here's just one place to start. Homeschooled Students Well-Prepared For College Study Finds
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> does the study show correlation or causation?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Read it for yourself so you can draw your own conclusions.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> i believe it's showing correlation, not causation.
> in no way does the study account for parents that have attended college, how far from home a student attends school, the economic background of the student, or even degrees pursued.
> 
> in other words i can see that at first glance it would make someone believe that homeschooled kids are doing better in college because of their homeschooling, but i just don't see the study supporting homeschooling as the cause.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> With a few exceptions, most home schooling parents care very deeply about the quality of the education their kids receive, thus ensuring their home schooled kids receive a good education.  Parents who send their kids to government schools can ALSO achieve a better education for their kids if they are care deeply and are involved, but home schooling parents have more tools at their disposal to actually do something about it.  The bottom line remains, parents who home school have better opportunities for their kids to get a better education.  Tell you what, find a study that concludes home schooled kids do WORSE than their government schooled counterparts and post it for discussion.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> i'd say home schooled kids have different tools available, not better
Click to expand...


Well, they have parents who are willing to do a LOT of hard work educating them.  I'd say that's a far superior tool than what a lot of government schooled kids have.


----------



## ogibillm

hadit said:


> ogibillm said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> hadit said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ogibillm said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> hadit said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ogibillm said:
> 
> 
> 
> i find you frequently like to copy and paste a bunch of stuff that doesn't really relate, like when you copied and pasted about the classroom size of catholic private schools versus other private schools when talking about public school
> does the study show correlation or causation?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Read it for yourself so you can draw your own conclusions.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> i believe it's showing correlation, not causation.
> in no way does the study account for parents that have attended college, how far from home a student attends school, the economic background of the student, or even degrees pursued.
> 
> in other words i can see that at first glance it would make someone believe that homeschooled kids are doing better in college because of their homeschooling, but i just don't see the study supporting homeschooling as the cause.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> With a few exceptions, most home schooling parents care very deeply about the quality of the education their kids receive, thus ensuring their home schooled kids receive a good education.  Parents who send their kids to government schools can ALSO achieve a better education for their kids if they are care deeply and are involved, but home schooling parents have more tools at their disposal to actually do something about it.  The bottom line remains, parents who home school have better opportunities for their kids to get a better education.  Tell you what, find a study that concludes home schooled kids do WORSE than their government schooled counterparts and post it for discussion.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> i'd say home schooled kids have different tools available, not better
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Well, they have parents who are willing to do a LOT of hard work educating them.  I'd say that's a far superior tool than what a lot of government schooled kids have.
Click to expand...

so those parents, if they were to send their kids to public school, would not work to help their education? doesn't that seem silly


----------



## hadit

ogibillm said:


> Samson said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> All it shows is that homeschoolers do better than the average student
> 
> It does not show whether homeschool students would have performed worse (or as well or better) in a public school
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Data shows that homeschooled kids learned what they needed to learn to do well on the test that generated the data.
> 
> The test is given to measure learning.
> 
> Homeschooled kids score higher on the test: they learn more.
> 
> What's the problem? You have a problem with kids learning more?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> the problem is claiming that they score better because they were homeschooled. that may or may not be the case, but it hasn't been proven here that the cause of better performance is homeschooling.
Click to expand...


Like I said before, find a study that concludes the cause of their superior performance is NOT home schooling and we'll discuss it.  I find it amusing that we are supposed to believe on the one hand that ignorant, poorly educated parents are attempting to home school their kids and doing a bad job of it, while on the other hand, the home schooled kids are superior in some way to the ones trapped in failing government schools.


----------



## PoliticalChic

hadit said:


> ogibillm said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Samson said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> All it shows is that homeschoolers do better than the average student
> 
> It does not show whether homeschool students would have performed worse (or as well or better) in a public school
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Data shows that homeschooled kids learned what they needed to learn to do well on the test that generated the data.
> 
> The test is given to measure learning.
> 
> Homeschooled kids score higher on the test: they learn more.
> 
> What's the problem? You have a problem with kids learning more?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> the problem is claiming that they score better because they were homeschooled. that may or may not be the case, but it hasn't been proven here that the cause of better performance is homeschooling.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Like I said before, find a study that concludes the cause of their superior performance is NOT home schooling and we'll discuss it.  I find it amusing that we are supposed to believe on the one hand that ignorant, poorly educated parents are attempting to home school their kids and doing a bad job of it, while on the other hand, the home schooled kids are superior in some way to the ones trapped in failing government schools.
Click to expand...





Can you see why our Leftist pals will never accept your conclusion?

If they did, the only proper response by government would be vouchers.....and then where would the Democrat Party be?


----------



## hadit

ogibillm said:


> hadit said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ogibillm said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> hadit said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ogibillm said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> hadit said:
> 
> 
> 
> Read it for yourself so you can draw your own conclusions.
> 
> 
> 
> i believe it's showing correlation, not causation.
> in no way does the study account for parents that have attended college, how far from home a student attends school, the economic background of the student, or even degrees pursued.
> 
> in other words i can see that at first glance it would make someone believe that homeschooled kids are doing better in college because of their homeschooling, but i just don't see the study supporting homeschooling as the cause.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> With a few exceptions, most home schooling parents care very deeply about the quality of the education their kids receive, thus ensuring their home schooled kids receive a good education.  Parents who send their kids to government schools can ALSO achieve a better education for their kids if they are care deeply and are involved, but home schooling parents have more tools at their disposal to actually do something about it.  The bottom line remains, parents who home school have better opportunities for their kids to get a better education.  Tell you what, find a study that concludes home schooled kids do WORSE than their government schooled counterparts and post it for discussion.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> i'd say home schooled kids have different tools available, not better
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Well, they have parents who are willing to do a LOT of hard work educating them.  I'd say that's a far superior tool than what a lot of government schooled kids have.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> so those parents, if they were to send their kids to public school, would not work to help their education? doesn't that seem silly
Click to expand...


I'll quote myself, 





> Parents who send their kids to government schools can ALSO achieve a better education for their kids if they are care deeply and are involved


 but you would have to prove that those same kids can get the same high quality education in the failed government schools.  Would they be allowed to leap two grades ahead in one subject while catching up in another?  Would they be allowed to pursue interests that don't coincide with the priorities of the teacher, the principal, the school board and the bureaucrats in DC?  No.

The home schooling parent has the flexibility to educate their children in the manner that works the best for the children instead of warehousing them and trying to pound square pegs into round holes.  Instead of drugging a kid with ADD, let him get up and run around every 10 minutes or so.  He'll be happier, calmer, and better able to focus.  You can't do that in a classroom where one teacher has to make 30 kids sit still and be quiet for an hour at a time.


----------



## hadit

PoliticalChic said:


> hadit said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ogibillm said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Samson said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> All it shows is that homeschoolers do better than the average student
> 
> It does not show whether homeschool students would have performed worse (or as well or better) in a public school
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Data shows that homeschooled kids learned what they needed to learn to do well on the test that generated the data.
> 
> The test is given to measure learning.
> 
> Homeschooled kids score higher on the test: they learn more.
> 
> What's the problem? You have a problem with kids learning more?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> the problem is claiming that they score better because they were homeschooled. that may or may not be the case, but it hasn't been proven here that the cause of better performance is homeschooling.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Like I said before, find a study that concludes the cause of their superior performance is NOT home schooling and we'll discuss it.  I find it amusing that we are supposed to believe on the one hand that ignorant, poorly educated parents are attempting to home school their kids and doing a bad job of it, while on the other hand, the home schooled kids are superior in some way to the ones trapped in failing government schools.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Can you see why our Leftist pals will never accept your conclusion?
> 
> If they did, the only proper response by government would be vouchers.....and then where would the Democrat Party be?
Click to expand...


Funny thing about that.  Black and Hispanic Americans, both staunch democrat voting blocs, strongly support vouchers and school choice, yet the democrat party spits on them for doing so.  Kinda Stockholm Syndrome there.


----------



## rightwinger

hadit said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ogibillm said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> hadit said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ogibillm said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PoliticalChic said:
> 
> 
> 
> And
> I find that frequently you attempt to engage in a discussion about which you have zero knowledge.
> 
> This post of yours certainly qualifies as such.
> 
> 
> 
> i find you frequently like to copy and paste a bunch of stuff that doesn't really relate, like when you copied and pasted about the classroom size of catholic private schools versus other private schools when talking about public school
> 
> 
> hadit said:
> 
> 
> 
> Here's just one place to start. Homeschooled Students Well-Prepared For College Study Finds
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> does the study show correlation or causation?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Read it for yourself so you can draw your own conclusions.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> i believe it's showing correlation, not causation.
> in no way does the study account for parents that have attended college, how far from home a student attends school, the economic background of the student, or even degrees pursued.
> 
> in other words i can see that at first glance it would make someone believe that homeschooled kids are doing better in college because of their homeschooling, but i just don't see the study supporting homeschooling as the cause.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> All it shows is that homeschoolers do better than the average student
> 
> It does not show whether homeschool students would have performed worse (or as well or better) in a public school
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Irrelevant.  To make that claim plausible, you have to accept the idea that rural students are generally superior in intellect than urban students.  I don't accept that.
Click to expand...

 
It has nothing to do with urban or rural and everything to do with parental involvement. Those with strong parental involvement will do better than average regardless of whether they are homeschooled or not


----------



## ogibillm

hadit said:


> ogibillm said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Samson said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> All it shows is that homeschoolers do better than the average student
> 
> It does not show whether homeschool students would have performed worse (or as well or better) in a public school
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Data shows that homeschooled kids learned what they needed to learn to do well on the test that generated the data.
> 
> The test is given to measure learning.
> 
> Homeschooled kids score higher on the test: they learn more.
> 
> What's the problem? You have a problem with kids learning more?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> the problem is claiming that they score better because they were homeschooled. that may or may not be the case, but it hasn't been proven here that the cause of better performance is homeschooling.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Like I said before, find a study that concludes the cause of their superior performance is NOT home schooling and we'll discuss it.  I find it amusing that we are supposed to believe on the one hand that ignorant, poorly educated parents are attempting to home school their kids and doing a bad job of it, while on the other hand, the home schooled kids are superior in some way to the ones trapped in failing government schools.
Click to expand...

parental involvement, socio-economic situation, family stability...
i think those all play a role in a kid's education for a start.
what homeschool proponents like to do is pretend that none of that stuff matters and that the only thing that does is the choice to homeschool, and that the child wouldn't have done well in the public school system.


----------



## PoliticalChic

hadit said:


> PoliticalChic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> hadit said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ogibillm said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Samson said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> All it shows is that homeschoolers do better than the average student
> 
> It does not show whether homeschool students would have performed worse (or as well or better) in a public school
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Data shows that homeschooled kids learned what they needed to learn to do well on the test that generated the data.
> 
> The test is given to measure learning.
> 
> Homeschooled kids score higher on the test: they learn more.
> 
> What's the problem? You have a problem with kids learning more?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> the problem is claiming that they score better because they were homeschooled. that may or may not be the case, but it hasn't been proven here that the cause of better performance is homeschooling.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Like I said before, find a study that concludes the cause of their superior performance is NOT home schooling and we'll discuss it.  I find it amusing that we are supposed to believe on the one hand that ignorant, poorly educated parents are attempting to home school their kids and doing a bad job of it, while on the other hand, the home schooled kids are superior in some way to the ones trapped in failing government schools.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Can you see why our Leftist pals will never accept your conclusion?
> 
> If they did, the only proper response by government would be vouchers.....and then where would the Democrat Party be?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Funny thing about that.  Black and Hispanic Americans, both staunch democrat voting blocs, strongly support vouchers and school choice, yet the democrat party spits on them for doing so.  Kinda Stockholm Syndrome there.
Click to expand...



Let's add this to the mix:

*"The California Federation of Teachers (CFT)*passed a resolution at its most recent convention claiming that “the continued unjust*incarceration of Mumia Abu-Jamal*represents a threat to the*civil rights*of all people.” Thirty years ago, Abu-Jamal took away Philadelphia policeman Daniel Faulkner’s foremost civil right: his life. How obtuse of the CFT to disregard “the threat to the civil rights of all people” represented by someone capable of gunning down a man tasked with protecting the public.

The pantheon of leftist saints includes the Haymarket Square bombers, responsible for the deaths of eight Chicago cops, Joe Hill, murderer of former police officer John Morrison in Salt Lake City, Huey Newton, murderer of Oakland policeman John Frey, and Leonard Peltier, murderer of FBI agents Jack Coler and Ronald Williams. Notice a pattern?"
Teachers' Mumia Abu-Jamal Resolution Out of Sync Morally and Historically | Human Events


----------



## hadit

rightwinger said:


> hadit said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ogibillm said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> hadit said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ogibillm said:
> 
> 
> 
> i find you frequently like to copy and paste a bunch of stuff that doesn't really relate, like when you copied and pasted about the classroom size of catholic private schools versus other private schools when talking about public school
> does the study show correlation or causation?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Read it for yourself so you can draw your own conclusions.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> i believe it's showing correlation, not causation.
> in no way does the study account for parents that have attended college, how far from home a student attends school, the economic background of the student, or even degrees pursued.
> 
> in other words i can see that at first glance it would make someone believe that homeschooled kids are doing better in college because of their homeschooling, but i just don't see the study supporting homeschooling as the cause.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> All it shows is that homeschoolers do better than the average student
> 
> It does not show whether homeschool students would have performed worse (or as well or better) in a public school
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Irrelevant.  To make that claim plausible, you have to accept the idea that rural students are generally superior in intellect than urban students.  I don't accept that.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> It has nothing to do with urban or rural and everything to do with parental involvement. Those with strong parental involvement will do better than average regardless of whether they are homeschooled or not
Click to expand...


And those same parents have judged the government school system to be inadequate for their children and have decided to give them the kind of flexible learning environment that works best for them.


----------



## rightwinger

PoliticalChic said:


> hadit said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PoliticalChic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> hadit said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ogibillm said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Samson said:
> 
> 
> 
> Data shows that homeschooled kids learned what they needed to learn to do well on the test that generated the data.
> 
> The test is given to measure learning.
> 
> Homeschooled kids score higher on the test: they learn more.
> 
> What's the problem? You have a problem with kids learning more?
> 
> 
> 
> the problem is claiming that they score better because they were homeschooled. that may or may not be the case, but it hasn't been proven here that the cause of better performance is homeschooling.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Like I said before, find a study that concludes the cause of their superior performance is NOT home schooling and we'll discuss it.  I find it amusing that we are supposed to believe on the one hand that ignorant, poorly educated parents are attempting to home school their kids and doing a bad job of it, while on the other hand, the home schooled kids are superior in some way to the ones trapped in failing government schools.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Can you see why our Leftist pals will never accept your conclusion?
> 
> If they did, the only proper response by government would be vouchers.....and then where would the Democrat Party be?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Funny thing about that.  Black and Hispanic Americans, both staunch democrat voting blocs, strongly support vouchers and school choice, yet the democrat party spits on them for doing so.  Kinda Stockholm Syndrome there.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Let's add this to the mix:
> 
> *"The California Federation of Teachers (CFT)*passed a resolution at its most recent convention claiming that “the continued unjust*incarceration of Mumia Abu-Jamal*represents a threat to the*civil rights*of all people.” Thirty years ago, Abu-Jamal took away Philadelphia policeman Daniel Faulkner’s foremost civil right: his life. How obtuse of the CFT to disregard “the threat to the civil rights of all people” represented by someone capable of gunning down a man tasked with protecting the public.
> 
> The pantheon of leftist saints includes the Haymarket Square bombers, responsible for the deaths of eight Chicago cops, Joe Hill, murderer of former police officer John Morrison in Salt Lake City, Huey Newton, murderer of Oakland policeman John Frey, and Leonard Peltier, murderer of FBI agents Jack Coler and Ronald Williams. Notice a pattern?"
> Teachers' Mumia Abu-Jamal Resolution Out of Sync Morally and Historically | Human Events
Click to expand...

 
WTF does that cut and paste have to do with Home Schooling?


----------



## rightwinger

hadit said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> hadit said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ogibillm said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> hadit said:
> 
> 
> 
> Read it for yourself so you can draw your own conclusions.
> 
> 
> 
> i believe it's showing correlation, not causation.
> in no way does the study account for parents that have attended college, how far from home a student attends school, the economic background of the student, or even degrees pursued.
> 
> in other words i can see that at first glance it would make someone believe that homeschooled kids are doing better in college because of their homeschooling, but i just don't see the study supporting homeschooling as the cause.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> All it shows is that homeschoolers do better than the average student
> 
> It does not show whether homeschool students would have performed worse (or as well or better) in a public school
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Irrelevant.  To make that claim plausible, you have to accept the idea that rural students are generally superior in intellect than urban students.  I don't accept that.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> It has nothing to do with urban or rural and everything to do with parental involvement. Those with strong parental involvement will do better than average regardless of whether they are homeschooled or not
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> And those same parents have judged the government school system to be inadequate for their children and have decided to give them the kind of flexible learning environment that works best for them.
Click to expand...

 
Good for them


----------



## Samson

ogibillm said:


> Samson said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> All it shows is that homeschoolers do better than the average student
> 
> It does not show whether homeschool students would have performed worse (or as well or better) in a public school
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Data shows that homeschooled kids learned what they needed to learn to do well on the test that generated the data.
> 
> The test is given to measure learning.
> 
> Homeschooled kids score higher on the test: they learn more.
> 
> What's the problem? You have a problem with kids learning more?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> the problem is claiming that they score better because they were homeschooled. that may or may not be the case, but it hasn't been proven here that the cause of better performance is homeschooling.
Click to expand...



The problem for whom?

The kids? How?

The "problem" about claiming kids score better home-schooled seems to be mainly that there is no argument you can find to refute the fact.

Regardless, what does it matter? The kids score well. They stay at home, and require fewer public resources. Sounds like a Win-Win.


----------



## hadit

ogibillm said:


> hadit said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ogibillm said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Samson said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> All it shows is that homeschoolers do better than the average student
> 
> It does not show whether homeschool students would have performed worse (or as well or better) in a public school
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Data shows that homeschooled kids learned what they needed to learn to do well on the test that generated the data.
> 
> The test is given to measure learning.
> 
> Homeschooled kids score higher on the test: they learn more.
> 
> What's the problem? You have a problem with kids learning more?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> the problem is claiming that they score better because they were homeschooled. that may or may not be the case, but it hasn't been proven here that the cause of better performance is homeschooling.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Like I said before, find a study that concludes the cause of their superior performance is NOT home schooling and we'll discuss it.  I find it amusing that we are supposed to believe on the one hand that ignorant, poorly educated parents are attempting to home school their kids and doing a bad job of it, while on the other hand, the home schooled kids are superior in some way to the ones trapped in failing government schools.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> parental involvement, socio-economic situation, family stability...
> i think those all play a role in a kid's education for a start.
> what homeschool proponents like to do is pretend that none of that stuff matters and that the only thing that does is the choice to homeschool, and that the child wouldn't have done well in the public school system.
Click to expand...


And I counter with personal experience.  My son, who at the time was suffering from an emotional disorder, could not handle the stress of the classroom, and was failing.  The school wanted to classify him as "special needs" and was ready to put him on the short bus.  We home schooled him with an accredited curriculum as I described before and he was an A student.  The school failed him.  My grandson, diagnosed with Aspbergers, couldn't handle the excess stimuli of the normal classroom.  Again, the school wanted to flunk him into "special needs" and ignore him.  This time we found an alternative private education that WORKS FOR HIM, not for the school system.  That's the bottom line.  The school system is more about forcing kids to sit still and be quiet than it is about teaching them anything.


----------



## hadit

rightwinger said:


> hadit said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> hadit said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ogibillm said:
> 
> 
> 
> i believe it's showing correlation, not causation.
> in no way does the study account for parents that have attended college, how far from home a student attends school, the economic background of the student, or even degrees pursued.
> 
> in other words i can see that at first glance it would make someone believe that homeschooled kids are doing better in college because of their homeschooling, but i just don't see the study supporting homeschooling as the cause.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> All it shows is that homeschoolers do better than the average student
> 
> It does not show whether homeschool students would have performed worse (or as well or better) in a public school
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Irrelevant.  To make that claim plausible, you have to accept the idea that rural students are generally superior in intellect than urban students.  I don't accept that.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> It has nothing to do with urban or rural and everything to do with parental involvement. Those with strong parental involvement will do better than average regardless of whether they are homeschooled or not
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> And those same parents have judged the government school system to be inadequate for their children and have decided to give them the kind of flexible learning environment that works best for them.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Good for them
Click to expand...


Right, so home schooling has to remain a viable option for parents who need an alternative to the failed American education system or simply want to give their kids a broader, richer, more complete education.


----------



## PoliticalChic

rightwinger said:


> PoliticalChic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> hadit said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PoliticalChic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> hadit said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ogibillm said:
> 
> 
> 
> the problem is claiming that they score better because they were homeschooled. that may or may not be the case, but it hasn't been proven here that the cause of better performance is homeschooling.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Like I said before, find a study that concludes the cause of their superior performance is NOT home schooling and we'll discuss it.  I find it amusing that we are supposed to believe on the one hand that ignorant, poorly educated parents are attempting to home school their kids and doing a bad job of it, while on the other hand, the home schooled kids are superior in some way to the ones trapped in failing government schools.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Can you see why our Leftist pals will never accept your conclusion?
> 
> If they did, the only proper response by government would be vouchers.....and then where would the Democrat Party be?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Funny thing about that.  Black and Hispanic Americans, both staunch democrat voting blocs, strongly support vouchers and school choice, yet the democrat party spits on them for doing so.  Kinda Stockholm Syndrome there.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Let's add this to the mix:
> 
> *"The California Federation of Teachers (CFT)*passed a resolution at its most recent convention claiming that “the continued unjust*incarceration of Mumia Abu-Jamal*represents a threat to the*civil rights*of all people.” Thirty years ago, Abu-Jamal took away Philadelphia policeman Daniel Faulkner’s foremost civil right: his life. How obtuse of the CFT to disregard “the threat to the civil rights of all people” represented by someone capable of gunning down a man tasked with protecting the public.
> 
> The pantheon of leftist saints includes the Haymarket Square bombers, responsible for the deaths of eight Chicago cops, Joe Hill, murderer of former police officer John Morrison in Salt Lake City, Huey Newton, murderer of Oakland policeman John Frey, and Leonard Peltier, murderer of FBI agents Jack Coler and Ronald Williams. Notice a pattern?"
> Teachers' Mumia Abu-Jamal Resolution Out of Sync Morally and Historically | Human Events
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> WTF does that cut and paste have to do with Home Schooling?
Click to expand...




Teacher's Unions....after Trial Lawyers....the best friends of the Democrat Party.

And the best friend of teacher's unions....killers of police.


----------



## Andylusion

Wow. I thought that was hilliarious.  Hate it when a joke falls flat.


----------



## Samson

rightwinger said:


> Samson said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> All it shows is that homeschoolers do better than the average student
> 
> It does not show whether homeschool students would have performed worse (or as well or better) in a public school
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Data shows that homeschooled kids learned what they needed to learn to do well on the test that generated the data.
> 
> The test is given to measure learning.
> 
> Homeschooled kids score higher on the test: they learn more.
> 
> What's the problem? You have a problem with kids learning more?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No...I have a problem with your conclusions
> 
> A homeschooled kid with educated parents who are involved in his education will perform better than average whether he is homeschooled or in a public school
Click to expand...


Your point assumes that the public school environment is as ideal as home.

A vast assumption.

You may have attended public school. Can you honestly say you preferred being at school to being at home? Given a survey, do you believe most kids would choose to be in school, or stay at home?

Even if I join you in an alternative parallel universe where kids would rather stay at school where there is no bullying, no disorder, no distractions, everyone is drinking bubble-up and eating rainbow stew: your point doesn't preclude the superiority of home schooling as a benefit to kids who simply like it, and as a public service in that it is a less costly alternative.


----------



## Samson

hadit said:


> Well, they have parents who are willing to do a LOT of hard work educating them.  I'd say that's a far superior tool than what a lot of government schooled kids have.



So parents are "tools."



I believe you've breached the TOS!!

Where's a Mod when you need one: PUT DOWN YOUR FREAKIN DONUTS, and GET OFF "BIGBOOTY.COM" !!!


----------



## Samson

Androw said:


> Wow. I thought that was hilliarious.  Hate it when a joke falls flat.



Sarcasm is a somewhat delicate form of comedy on USMB.


----------



## rightwinger

hadit said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> hadit said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> hadit said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> All it shows is that homeschoolers do better than the average student
> 
> It does not show whether homeschool students would have performed worse (or as well or better) in a public school
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Irrelevant.  To make that claim plausible, you have to accept the idea that rural students are generally superior in intellect than urban students.  I don't accept that.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> It has nothing to do with urban or rural and everything to do with parental involvement. Those with strong parental involvement will do better than average regardless of whether they are homeschooled or not
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> And those same parents have judged the government school system to be inadequate for their children and have decided to give them the kind of flexible learning environment that works best for them.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Good for them
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Right, so home schooling has to remain a viable option for parents for who need an alternative to the failed American education system or simply want to give their kids a broader, richer, more complete education.
Click to expand...

For those children who have problems interacting with other children, I have no problem with home school. Let mommy protect them


----------



## rightwinger

Samson said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Samson said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> All it shows is that homeschoolers do better than the average student
> 
> It does not show whether homeschool students would have performed worse (or as well or better) in a public school
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Data shows that homeschooled kids learned what they needed to learn to do well on the test that generated the data.
> 
> The test is given to measure learning.
> 
> Homeschooled kids score higher on the test: they learn more.
> 
> What's the problem? You have a problem with kids learning more?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No...I have a problem with your conclusions
> 
> A homeschooled kid with educated parents who are involved in his education will perform better than average whether he is homeschooled or in a public school
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Your point assumes that the public school environment is as ideal as home.
> 
> A vast assumption.
> 
> You may have attended public school. Can you honestly say you preferred being at school to being at home? Given a survey, do you believe most kids would choose to be in school, or stay at home?
> 
> Even if I join you in an alternative parallel universe where kids would rather stay at school where there is no bullying, no disorder, no distractions, everyone is drinking bubble-up and eating rainbow stew: your point doesn't preclude the superiority of home schooling as a benefit to kids who simply like it, and as a public service in that it is a less costly alternative.
Click to expand...

I vastly preferred being at school to being at home


----------



## Samson

rightwinger said:


> hadit said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> hadit said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> hadit said:
> 
> 
> 
> Irrelevant.  To make that claim plausible, you have to accept the idea that rural students are generally superior in intellect than urban students.  I don't accept that.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It has nothing to do with urban or rural and everything to do with parental involvement. Those with strong parental involvement will do better than average regardless of whether they are homeschooled or not
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> And those same parents have judged the government school system to be inadequate for their children and have decided to give them the kind of flexible learning environment that works best for them.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Good for them
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Right, so home schooling has to remain a viable option for parents for who need an alternative to the failed American education system or simply want to give their kids a broader, richer, more complete education.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> For those children who have problems interacting with other children, I have no problem with home school. Let mommy protect them
Click to expand...


Sadly, Public School Teachers may not have the Same Choice


----------



## PoliticalChic

Androw said:


> Wow. I thought that was hilliarious (sic).  Hate it when a joke falls flat.





Did I understand correctly that you find the most numerous supporters of the Democrat Party, championing a cop killer, a joke?
Hilarious? 

And, if so...if the Chamber of Commerce had a press release crowing about how wonderful the slaying of Martin Luther King, Jr. had been......you'd find that hilarious as well?


----------



## Samson

rightwinger said:


> Samson said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Samson said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> All it shows is that homeschoolers do better than the average student
> 
> It does not show whether homeschool students would have performed worse (or as well or better) in a public school
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Data shows that homeschooled kids learned what they needed to learn to do well on the test that generated the data.
> 
> The test is given to measure learning.
> 
> Homeschooled kids score higher on the test: they learn more.
> 
> What's the problem? You have a problem with kids learning more?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No...I have a problem with your conclusions
> 
> A homeschooled kid with educated parents who are involved in his education will perform better than average whether he is homeschooled or in a public school
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Your point assumes that the public school environment is as ideal as home.
> 
> A vast assumption.
> 
> You may have attended public school. Can you honestly say you preferred being at school to being at home? Given a survey, do you believe most kids would choose to be in school, or stay at home?
> 
> Even if I join you in an alternative parallel universe where kids would rather stay at school where there is no bullying, no disorder, no distractions, everyone is drinking bubble-up and eating rainbow stew: your point doesn't preclude the superiority of home schooling as a benefit to kids who simply like it, and as a public service in that it is a less costly alternative.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I vastly preferred being at school to being at home
Click to expand...


So you think EVERYONE preferred being at school?

What about pulling wings off flies?


----------



## PoliticalChic

rightwinger said:


> hadit said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> hadit said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> hadit said:
> 
> 
> 
> Irrelevant.  To make that claim plausible, you have to accept the idea that rural students are generally superior in intellect than urban students.  I don't accept that.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It has nothing to do with urban or rural and everything to do with parental involvement. Those with strong parental involvement will do better than average regardless of whether they are homeschooled or not
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> And those same parents have judged the government school system to be inadequate for their children and have decided to give them the kind of flexible learning environment that works best for them.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Good for them
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Right, so home schooling has to remain a viable option for parents for who need an alternative to the failed American education system or simply want to give their kids a broader, richer, more complete education.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> For those children who have problems interacting with other children, I have no problem with home school. Let mommy protect them
Click to expand...




Post unnecessary...I knew what a tough guy you are by your sportin' that 4-finger "Thug 4 Life" ring.



But....really....ditch the 'Hello, Kitty" backpack.


----------



## percysunshine

Samson said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Samson said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Samson said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> All it shows is that homeschoolers do better than the average student
> 
> It does not show whether homeschool students would have performed worse (or as well or better) in a public school
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Data shows that homeschooled kids learned what they needed to learn to do well on the test that generated the data.
> 
> The test is given to measure learning.
> 
> Homeschooled kids score higher on the test: they learn more.
> 
> What's the problem? You have a problem with kids learning more?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No...I have a problem with your conclusions
> 
> A homeschooled kid with educated parents who are involved in his education will perform better than average whether he is homeschooled or in a public school
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Your point assumes that the public school environment is as ideal as home.
> 
> A vast assumption.
> 
> You may have attended public school. Can you honestly say you preferred being at school to being at home? Given a survey, do you believe most kids would choose to be in school, or stay at home?
> 
> Even if I join you in an alternative parallel universe where kids would rather stay at school where there is no bullying, no disorder, no distractions, everyone is drinking bubble-up and eating rainbow stew: your point doesn't preclude the superiority of home schooling as a benefit to kids who simply like it, and as a public service in that it is a less costly alternative.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I vastly preferred being at school to being at home
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> So you think EVERYONE preferred being at school?
> 
> What about pulling wings off flies?
Click to expand...



The left wing, or the right wing?...I could never decide...

.


----------



## hadit

Samson said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Samson said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> All it shows is that homeschoolers do better than the average student
> 
> It does not show whether homeschool students would have performed worse (or as well or better) in a public school
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Data shows that homeschooled kids learned what they needed to learn to do well on the test that generated the data.
> 
> The test is given to measure learning.
> 
> Homeschooled kids score higher on the test: they learn more.
> 
> What's the problem? You have a problem with kids learning more?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No...I have a problem with your conclusions
> 
> A homeschooled kid with educated parents who are involved in his education will perform better than average whether he is homeschooled or in a public school
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Your point assumes that the public school environment is as ideal as home.
> 
> A vast assumption.
> 
> You may have attended public school. Can you honestly say you preferred being at school to being at home? Given a survey, do you believe most kids would choose to be in school, or stay at home?
> 
> Even if I join you in an alternative parallel universe where kids would rather stay at school where there is no bullying, no disorder, no distractions, everyone is drinking bubble-up and eating rainbow stew: your point doesn't preclude the superiority of home schooling as a benefit to kids who simply like it, and as a public service in that it is a less costly alternative.
Click to expand...


Therein lies the government school's opposition.  Every child they cannot warehouse in the classroom means less money to the school he/she would have had to attend.


----------



## hadit

rightwinger said:


> hadit said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> hadit said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> hadit said:
> 
> 
> 
> Irrelevant.  To make that claim plausible, you have to accept the idea that rural students are generally superior in intellect than urban students.  I don't accept that.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It has nothing to do with urban or rural and everything to do with parental involvement. Those with strong parental involvement will do better than average regardless of whether they are homeschooled or not
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> And those same parents have judged the government school system to be inadequate for their children and have decided to give them the kind of flexible learning environment that works best for them.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Good for them
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Right, so home schooling has to remain a viable option for parents for who need an alternative to the failed American education system or simply want to give their kids a broader, richer, more complete education.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> For those children who have problems interacting with other children, I have no problem with home school. Let mommy protect them
Click to expand...


Interacting with other kids is not the issue.  Many kids do not learn well if they are forced to sit down and shut up.  Most kids will learn better if they have at most one or two classmates and can get their teacher's sole attention.  Your antipathy toward other people's life choices is interesting.


----------



## hadit

rightwinger said:


> Samson said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Samson said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> All it shows is that homeschoolers do better than the average student
> 
> It does not show whether homeschool students would have performed worse (or as well or better) in a public school
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Data shows that homeschooled kids learned what they needed to learn to do well on the test that generated the data.
> 
> The test is given to measure learning.
> 
> Homeschooled kids score higher on the test: they learn more.
> 
> What's the problem? You have a problem with kids learning more?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No...I have a problem with your conclusions
> 
> A homeschooled kid with educated parents who are involved in his education will perform better than average whether he is homeschooled or in a public school
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Your point assumes that the public school environment is as ideal as home.
> 
> A vast assumption.
> 
> You may have attended public school. Can you honestly say you preferred being at school to being at home? Given a survey, do you believe most kids would choose to be in school, or stay at home?
> 
> Even if I join you in an alternative parallel universe where kids would rather stay at school where there is no bullying, no disorder, no distractions, everyone is drinking bubble-up and eating rainbow stew: your point doesn't preclude the superiority of home schooling as a benefit to kids who simply like it, and as a public service in that it is a less costly alternative.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I vastly preferred being at school to being at home
Click to expand...


Really?  You enjoyed strangers having total control over your life?  You enjoyed someone telling you when you can eat, what you can eat, when you can go to the bathroom, even in some cases what you can wear, etc?  That's odd.

Let's see.  You mock and impugn other people's life choices, even when they result in superior outcomes, you prefer being under the total control of strangers to freedom.  You must be a democrat.


----------



## hadit

Samson said:


> hadit said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well, they have parents who are willing to do a LOT of hard work educating them.  I'd say that's a far superior tool than what a lot of government schooled kids have.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So parents are "tools."
> 
> 
> 
> I believe you've breached the TOS!!
> 
> Where's a Mod when you need one: PUT DOWN YOUR FREAKIN DONUTS, and GET OFF "BIGBOOTY.COM" !!!
Click to expand...


I can never decide if they're hammers or wrenches.


----------



## ChrisL

I agree with allowing people the choice to home school their children.  What concerns me is the lack the social interaction.  Some parents are going to be good at doing this, and others not so much.  It is not easy, and not everyone will have success at homeschooling their children.  A lot of those parents end up sending their kids to public schools anyways.  

I would really like to see money allocated equally amongst the public schools (instead of going by district), and then all the kids can have a decent chance at an education.


----------



## Samson

hadit said:


> Samson said:
> 
> 
> 
> Even if I join you in an alternative parallel universe where kids would rather stay at school where there is no bullying, no disorder, no distractions, everyone is drinking bubble-up and eating rainbow stew: your point doesn't preclude the superiority of home schooling as a benefit to kids who simply like it, and as a public service in that it is a less costly alternative.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Therein lies the government school's opposition.  Every child they cannot warehouse in the classroom means less money to the school he/she would have had to attend.
Click to expand...


No. it means they need to find another way to justify spending.

We can always be confident Government Will Overcome Any Obstacle to This End.


----------



## Unkotare

rightwinger said:


> In reality, they homeschool because they are afraid their child may be exposed to ideas the parents don't support and "God forbid" they are exposed to negroes, gays, hispanics, poor kids, atheists and even worse......liberals




More illogical nonsense from yet another mindless, partisan drone...


----------



## gallantwarrior

PoliticalChic said:


> I have been following the numbers of homeschoolers.....
> 
> 1. "Data from the *1999 NHES showed an estimated 850,000 homeschooled students* in the United States—about 1.7 percent of the school-age population (Bielick, Chandler, and Broughman 2001). The increase in the homeschooling rate (from 1.7 percent in 1999 to 2.2 percent in 2003 to 2.9 percent in 2007) represents a 74 percent relative increase over the 8-year period and a 36 percent relative increase since 2003."
> http://nces.ed.gov/pubs2009/2009030.pdf
> 
> That was published in 2009.
> 
> 
> 
> Now this:
> 
> 
> 2. "In North Carolina, the number of homeschoolers has now surpassed the number of students attending private schools....the homeschooling movement, which has rapidly increased in recent decades.
> 
> 3. In *1973, there were approximately 13,000 children, *ages 5 to 17, being homeschooled in the United States. ... as of the 2011-2012 school year,* that number has grown to almost 1.8 million* or approximately* 3.4 percent of the school age population.* Other sources report numbers well over 2 million.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 4. In the Tar Heel state alone, homeschooling has increased by 27 percent over the past two years.
> 
> 5. ....pretty impressive numbers for a movement considered “fringe” not that long ago and that has only been legal in all 50 states since 1996.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 6. The *Department of Education, which surely isn’t happy with the trend,* has tracked the issue since 2003. According to its findings:
> 
> 
> In 2003, 85 percent of parents said they chose homeschooling because of “a concern about *the school environment*” which included worry about safety, drugs or negative peer pressure. That number jumped to 91 percent by 2011.
> 
> In 2003, 72 percent said “a desire to provide *religious or moral instruction” *was a major reason. In 2011, that number had increased to 77 percent.
> 
> In 2003, 68 percent said “*dissatisfaction with academic instruction* at other schools” contributed to their decision. By 2011, that was up to 74 percent.
> 7. ...my guess is when the figures are reported related to the past two years you’ll see the number of parents citing “dissatisfaction with academic instruction” spike with the growing uprising against Common Core and national standards.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 8. ....the public education establishment don’t find homeschooling up to their standards. The National Education Association, the country’s largest teacher’s union,declared in a 2011 resolution: “The National Education Association believes that homeschooling programs based on *parental choice cannot provide the student with a comprehensive education experience.”*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 9. ....*the actual results from homeschooling. *According to Education News:
> Recent studies laud homeschoolers’ *academic success, noting their significantly higher ACT-Composite scores as high schoolers and higher grade point averages as college students.*
> 
> 
> 10. Yet surprisingly, the average expenditure for the education of a homeschooled child, per year, is $500 to $600, compared to an average expenditure of $10,000 per child, per year, for public school students.
> What is not calculated in the cost line above for homeschooling is the time spent by a parent teaching."
> In One State More Children Homeschool Than Attend Private Schools.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What is not mentioned, as well, is the decision by homeschool parents to have children more like themselves, rather than the mind-numbed automatons that government schools turn out.


Given some of the things my daughter has described to me about the schools in NC, this isn't a surprise.  One of the reasons I'm moving down the NC to live with my family is in order to home school my granddaughters.  If the schools have deteriorated to the level she's described, any responsible parent who cares about their children and the education they receive will make every effort to home school their children.


----------



## gallantwarrior

Mad Scientist said:


> You don't need Public Schools to learn Social Skills in fact, I'd say Public Schools just mess kids up. After school I participated in Sports and Social Clubs with NO affiliation to Public Schools and I did just fine. So did Millions of other kids.


There are lots of homeschooling cooperatives that not only provide children with social interaction, but allow parents to supplement areas they might be weak in by "exchanging" teaching skills.


----------



## gallantwarrior

AquaAthena said:


> Mad Scientist said:
> 
> 
> 
> This "story" of abused home schoolers with no social skills as been going on for a long time and I don't believe it. Stupid Americans need to stop protecting a failed organization. If WalMart sold a sh*tty product you'd be returning it the same day but if yer kid fails tests you say nothing. Not a f*ckin' thing.
> 
> Who wins the Scrips Spelling Bees every year? It aint the kid from PS 128 in Noo Yawk. (No offense intended PC)
> 
> 
> 
> Agreed. All home schooled kids I have met have regular social interactions with other kids through sports, music lessons and other events their parents see to it they are involved in. I am SO impressed with the kids and their manners and grace. *They were born unto some dedicated and unselfish parents*.
Click to expand...

Very true.  Homeschooling takes personal commitment and dedication that too many parents have abdicated to the public schools.


----------



## gallantwarrior

_,,_


ogibillm said:


> Mad Scientist said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ogibillm said:
> 
> 
> 
> there are good resources out there now, i don't disagree. but again, *there's no reason those resources couldn't be used with kids in public schools* to supplement or enhance their education.
> 
> 
> 
> I can think of two: Teachers wouldn't understand it.
> Teachers Unions.
> 
> Also, are you admitting that Public School needs "Supplementation or Enhancement?". It *ISN'T* Perfect?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> you don't know many teachers, do you?
> i'm saying that all parents need to be involved in the education of their children, and that if as a parent you are completely giving that responsibility over to the schools than you are a failure as a parent, no question.
Click to expand...


But not all parents are involved, are they?  So what's the result?  Public school teachers are overtaxed trying to accommodate those children whose parents are little more than sperm/egg donors.  Teachers are also often hobbled by government mandated curriculum that has little to do with education and much more to do with social engineering and PC bullshit.  The end result is, if you want your children *educated, *i.e. capable of reading comprehension, critical thinking, basic mathematic computation, and having a minimal understanding of social studies, you do it yourself.  Public schools teach to the lowest common denominator and do not demand excellence.


----------



## gallantwarrior

ogibillm said:


> PoliticalChic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Katzndogz said:
> 
> 
> 
> Lack of social interaction is libspeak for refusal to use drugs.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Social interaction:
> 
> "Kindergarten teacher suspended after two of her students, aged five, are caught 'having sex' in school bathroom"
> Kids five found having sex in kindergarten bathroom by teacher now facing the axe Daily Mail Online
> Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> and you're choosing to blame that on the teacher rather than the parents of those two students.
> 
> do you see my concern for homeschooling now?
Click to expand...

I'm not seeing where PC is responsible for suspending this teacher.  So, who is blaming the teacher?


----------



## gallantwarrior

initforme said:


> For those that are able to homeschool I commend them.  The problem is that most families don't make enough money where only 1 personworking makes nearly enough to survive.   That happened in the early 80's.   Who was prez then?   Most working class(the ones the parties throw under the bus to help the rich) can no longer afford 1 person working so who is there to teach?  Homeschooling is for the wealthy.


Not necessarily true.  My daughter is a stay-at-home mother and wife, managing a household on a military salary.  It's not easy, and they have few "extras", but she makes it all work.  My daughter has the wisdom to heed my advice that she is far better served raising her children herself, instead of abdicating her parental duties to "care givers".  My granddaughters are bright, polite, and a delight to be around.  Oh, yeah, they are not "wealthy" by any monetary scale.  But...wealth can be measured in many other ways than the bottom line of your checking account.


----------



## gallantwarrior

Samson said:


> JakeStarkey said:
> 
> 
> 
> Don't dither, please.  The point is that if public school class sizes were reduced in number, learning would improve.  That is the obvious answer.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But public school class sizes _*are not reduced in number*_, so learning improves with home-schooling.
> 
> Let's attempt to offer _REAL WORLD SOLUTIONS_ rather than examining ridiculous absurdities like pretending public schools will ever have parity with home-schools' teacher to student ratios.
> 
> If anyone would really like to dither we could pretend all students were perfectly parented consistently healthy angels with IQ's of 130. Hey, guess what? LEARNING WOULD IMPROVE in public schools regardless of class size!!! This scenario is similarly as stupid as expecting public school teacher to student ratios t
> 
> 
> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> gipper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> Home schooling is a great option for many parents. You get to control all the information your children are subjected to and they don't have to go to school with negroes or poor people
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> More demonizing and racism from a leftist fool.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Lets cut to the chase..
> 
> Homeschool parents declare....I am such a great parent, I homeschool my child because I want my child to receive the best education possible
> 
> In reality, they homeschool because they are afraid their child may be exposed to ideas the parents don't support and "God forbid" they are exposed to negroes, gays, hispanics, poor kids, atheists and even worse......liberals
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> o approach home-school's ratios.
Click to expand...

Homeschooling improves the educational outcome more due to the personal involvement of the "teachers" involved.  If teachers were left to their own devices, to use their talents, many would be surprised at the outcome for public school students.  I know many teachers.  One of the reasons I teach at the University and not in K-12 public schools is because my students have a vested interest in their educational outcome.


----------



## gallantwarrior

rightwinger said:


> gipper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> Home schooling is a great option for many parents. You get to control all the information your children are subjected to and they don't have to go to school with negroes or poor people
> 
> 
> 
> 
> More demonizing and racism from a leftist fool.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Lets cut to the chase..
> 
> Homeschool parents declare....I am such a great parent, I homeschool my child because I want my child to receive the best education possible
> 
> In reality, they homeschool because they are afraid their child may be exposed to ideas the parents don't support and "God forbid" they are exposed to negroes, gays, hispanics, poor kids, atheists and even worse......liberals
Click to expand...

And you are an absolute, obtusely ignorant moron who has paid NO attention.  While I agree that some people who homeschool have religious objections to what is presented in public schools and labeled as "educational", many, many more parents are concerned that their children learn to _think_ and not _feel._


----------



## gallantwarrior

rightwinger said:


> Homeschool parents get to control every aspect of their childs life. What they learn, who they can interact with, what they are exposed to
> 
> Little Jimmies friends are carefully selected for him. He has no free time where he can interact with children of his choice or hear ideas that his parents don't suppport.
> 
> The local school is filled with negroes, hispanics, jews, atheists and poor kids. They are a bad influence on little Jimmy
> 
> That is why Jimmy is home schooled


You have a problem that little Jimmie's friends are not gang-bangers, drug abusers, or of otherwise undesirable character?


----------



## gallantwarrior

rightwinger said:


> hadit said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> Homeschool parents get to control every aspect of their childs life. What they learn, who they can interact with, what they are exposed to
> 
> Little Jimmies friends are carefully selected for him. He has no free time where he can interact with children of his choice or hear ideas that his parents don't suppport.
> 
> The local school is filled with negroes, hispanics, jews, atheists and poor kids. They are a bad influence on little Jimmy
> 
> That is why Jimmy is home schooled
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Apparently, you were not encouraged as a child to interact with others who hold opinions different from your own, or to dispassionately consume and process information about them.  IOW, you're validating the opinions of many parents who choose to homeschool their children.  Why would parents want their children to endure ridicule from kids who talk like you write?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I interacted with many children and many teachers who had different opinions. I dealt with kids of different races, nationalities, religions, economic stature. I interacted with kids from throughout the US. I also dealt with bullies, racists, druggies, jocks, nerds, homosexuals, liberals, conservatives, atheists and fundamentalists
> 
> I learned to take in information from a wide range of sources and form my own opinions
> 
> *Home school kids don't get that opportunity[/*QUOTE]
> That statement alone clearly illustrates your abject ignorance on the subject and renders any subsequent opinion you might issue on the subject irrelevant.  Thanks.
Click to expand...


----------



## gallantwarrior

rightwinger said:


> hadit said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PoliticalChic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> hadit said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> Homeschool parents get to control every aspect of their childs life. What they learn, who they can interact with, what they are exposed to
> 
> Little Jimmies friends are carefully selected for him. He has no free time where he can interact with children of his choice or hear ideas that his parents don't suppport.
> 
> The local school is filled with negroes, hispanics, jews, atheists and poor kids. They are a bad influence on little Jimmy
> 
> That is why Jimmy is home schooled
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Apparently, you were not encouraged as a child to interact with others who hold opinions different from your own, or to dispassionately consume and process information about them.  IOW, you're validating the opinions of many parents who choose to homeschool their children.  Why would parents want their children to endure ridicule from kids who talk like you write?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I interacted with many children and many teachers who had different opinions. I dealt with kids of different races, nationalities, religions, economic stature. I interacted with kids from throughout the US. I also dealt with bullies, racists, druggies, jocks, nerds, homosexuals, liberals, conservatives, atheists and fundamentalists
> 
> I learned to take in information from a wide range of sources and form my own opinions
> 
> Home school kids don't get that opportunity
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Another fabrication.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Why anyone would think it is better to stuff a kid into a room with 30 other kids whose highest priority is to be anywhere but there and a teacher whose highest priority is to make all of them sit still and be quiet for an hour is beyond me.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> It is not 30 other kids...it is hundreds
> 
> You get to interact with kids from different areas, different views, different goals
> 
> Just the experience of riding on a school bus is worth the price of admission
Click to expand...

So, an eight grade student soliciting you (a sixth grader who has no clue what he's talking about) for a hand or blow job is great!  Then the same fucktard bully tells you to close your legs when the bus passes a dead skunk and he smacks you in the back of your head when you fail to respond to his taunting.  But it's all OK, you've moved as close to the bus driver as you can and told him about what has happened, as you have been told to, and the driver tells you, "too bad, I only drive the bus".   Then the school does nothing but "investigate", leaving this piece of shit, sexual pervert child on the bus...hell, I guess to the libtard mind that "admission" is worth the price.  Your are one sick piece of shit...


----------



## gallantwarrior

rightwinger said:


> Samson said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Samson said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> All it shows is that homeschoolers do better than the average student
> 
> It does not show whether homeschool students would have performed worse (or as well or better) in a public school
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Data shows that homeschooled kids learned what they needed to learn to do well on the test that generated the data.
> 
> The test is given to measure learning.
> 
> Homeschooled kids score higher on the test: they learn more.
> 
> What's the problem? You have a problem with kids learning more?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No...I have a problem with your conclusions
> 
> A homeschooled kid with educated parents who are involved in his education will perform better than average whether he is homeschooled or in a public school
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Your point assumes that the public school environment is as ideal as home.
> 
> A vast assumption.
> 
> You may have attended public school. Can you honestly say you preferred being at school to being at home? Given a survey, do you believe most kids would choose to be in school, or stay at home?
> 
> Even if I join you in an alternative parallel universe where kids would rather stay at school where there is no bullying, no disorder, no distractions, everyone is drinking bubble-up and eating rainbow stew: your point doesn't preclude the superiority of home schooling as a benefit to kids who simply like it, and as a public service in that it is a less costly alternative.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I vastly preferred being at school to being at home
Click to expand...

That speaks volumes about your home.


----------



## gallantwarrior

ChrisL said:


> I agree with allowing people the choice to home school their children.  What concerns me is the lack the social interaction.  Some parents are going to be good at doing this, and others not so much.  It is not easy, and not everyone will have success at homeschooling their children.  A lot of those parents end up sending their kids to public schools anyways.
> 
> I would really like to see money allocated equally amongst the public schools (instead of going by district), and then all the kids can have a decent chance at an education.


Not every public school has much success at schooling all children, either.  And if bullying and peer pressure can be considered "social interaction"...well, OK.  One-size-fits-all education fails every time.


----------



## ChrisL

gallantwarrior said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> I agree with allowing people the choice to home school their children.  What concerns me is the lack the social interaction.  Some parents are going to be good at doing this, and others not so much.  It is not easy, and not everyone will have success at homeschooling their children.  A lot of those parents end up sending their kids to public schools anyways.
> 
> I would really like to see money allocated equally amongst the public schools (instead of going by district), and then all the kids can have a decent chance at an education.
> 
> 
> 
> Not every public school has much success at schooling all children, either.  And if bullying and peer pressure can be considered "social interaction"...well, OK.  One-size-fits-all education fails every time.
Click to expand...


It does not.  There are plenty of successful people who attended public school.


----------



## JakeStarkey

And much about the school as well.


----------



## ChrisL

I think some kids would definitely benefit and learn more efficiently in a home environment, but that certainly isn't the case for all kids.  Plenty of them do just fine in the public school environment.  Of course, the quality of your public school system depends on where you live and how much funding your schools are receiving.  

Now, here is where the conservatives get a little cranky.  Lol.  I would like to see all the funds allocated towards schools pooled together and distributed equally amongst the schools so that all the children are getting equal quality of education from their public school systems.


----------



## Rikurzhen

ChrisL said:


> Now, here is where the conservatives get a little cranky.  Lol. * I would like to see all the funds allocated towards schools pooled together* and distributed equally amongst the schools so that all the children are getting equal quality of education from their public school systems.



People vote with their pocketbooks, they move to expensive homes where nearby schools are well funded by choice so that their kids get the benefit.

If you want to implement your plan then you need to de-link school funding from property taxes because people are willing to pay higher taxes in return for benefits which accrue to them or to their neighborhood, not to people clear across the state.

The best way forward is to have the state grant each school-age student a grant and then the student attends the school of his choice and the student turns over the grant money to the school. For parents who want their kids to have a more elaborate education, the schools can charge a supplementary tuition.

No parent is EVER going to sacrifice his child's education so that some other kid can possibly derive some benefit. Most of what drives high real estate prices is the quest for good schools. Junk the school and you crash property values.


----------



## ChrisL

Rikurzhen said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> Now, here is where the conservatives get a little cranky.  Lol. * I would like to see all the funds allocated towards schools pooled together* and distributed equally amongst the schools so that all the children are getting equal quality of education from their public school systems.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> People vote with their pocketbooks, they move to expensive homes where nearby schools are well funded by choice so that their kids get the benefit.
> 
> If you want to implement your plan then you need to de-link school funding from property taxes because people are willing to pay higher taxes in return for benefits which accrue to them or to their neighborhood, not to people clear across the state.
> 
> The best way forward is to have the state grant each school-age student a grant and then the student attends the school of his choice and the student turns over the grant money to the school. For parents who want their kids to have a more elaborate education, the schools can charge a supplementary tuition.
> 
> No parent is EVER going to sacrifice his child's education so that some other kid can possibly derive some benefit. Most of what drives high real estate prices is the quest for good schools. Junk the school and you crash property values.
Click to expand...


Good schools are not the only advantage to paying higher property taxes.  That is a cop out, and at the cost of our society being well educated and well functioning, which in turn only makes us as a country stronger.  I would be willing to bet that this is part of the reason why some other countries outperform us when it comes to academics.


----------



## Rikurzhen

ChrisL said:


> Rikurzhen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> Now, here is where the conservatives get a little cranky.  Lol. * I would like to see all the funds allocated towards schools pooled together* and distributed equally amongst the schools so that all the children are getting equal quality of education from their public school systems.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> People vote with their pocketbooks, they move to expensive homes where nearby schools are well funded by choice so that their kids get the benefit.
> 
> If you want to implement your plan then you need to de-link school funding from property taxes because people are willing to pay higher taxes in return for benefits which accrue to them or to their neighborhood, not to people clear across the state.
> 
> The best way forward is to have the state grant each school-age student a grant and then the student attends the school of his choice and the student turns over the grant money to the school. For parents who want their kids to have a more elaborate education, the schools can charge a supplementary tuition.
> 
> No parent is EVER going to sacrifice his child's education so that some other kid can possibly derive some benefit. Most of what drives high real estate prices is the quest for good schools. Junk the school and you crash property values.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Good schools are not the only advantage to paying higher property taxes.  That is a cop out, and at the cost of our society being well educated and well functioning, which in turn only makes us as a country stronger.  I would be willing to bet that this is part of the reason why some other countries outperform us when it comes to academics.
Click to expand...


We have NO PROBLEM with underfunded schools. Schools are not the reason some kids are not well educated nor well functioning. Look at this national data. White students who are poor enough to qualify for subsidized lunch programs and who were born to high school drop-out mothers perform at the same level as black kids who are not poor and who are born to mothers who are college graduates, in other words likely middle class or upper middle class blacks.

And before I get to that data, we are not under-performing internationally. Our Asian students are, with the exception of those from the CITY of Shanghai, are the best performing in the world. Our white students come in 2nd to Finland. Our Hispanic students are the best performing Hispanics students in the world. Our black students are the best performing in the world.


----------



## ChrisL

Rikurzhen said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Rikurzhen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> Now, here is where the conservatives get a little cranky.  Lol. * I would like to see all the funds allocated towards schools pooled together* and distributed equally amongst the schools so that all the children are getting equal quality of education from their public school systems.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> People vote with their pocketbooks, they move to expensive homes where nearby schools are well funded by choice so that their kids get the benefit.
> 
> If you want to implement your plan then you need to de-link school funding from property taxes because people are willing to pay higher taxes in return for benefits which accrue to them or to their neighborhood, not to people clear across the state.
> 
> The best way forward is to have the state grant each school-age student a grant and then the student attends the school of his choice and the student turns over the grant money to the school. For parents who want their kids to have a more elaborate education, the schools can charge a supplementary tuition.
> 
> No parent is EVER going to sacrifice his child's education so that some other kid can possibly derive some benefit. Most of what drives high real estate prices is the quest for good schools. Junk the school and you crash property values.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Good schools are not the only advantage to paying higher property taxes.  That is a cop out, and at the cost of our society being well educated and well functioning, which in turn only makes us as a country stronger.  I would be willing to bet that this is part of the reason why some other countries outperform us when it comes to academics.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> We have NO PROBLEM with underfunded schools. Schools are not the reason some kids are not well educated nor well functioning. Look at this national data. White students who are poor enough to qualify for subsidized lunch programs and who were born to high school drop-out mothers perform at the same level as black kids who are not poor and who are born to mothers who are college graduates, in other words likely middle class or upper middle class blacks.
> 
> And before I get to that data, we are not under-performing internationally. Our Asian students are, with the exception of those from the CITY of Shanghai, are the best performing in the world. Our white students come in 2nd to Finland. Our Hispanic students are the best performing Hispanics students in the world. Our black students are the best performing in the world.
Click to expand...


So then you are saying that our public school system is fine?  Then what are you complaining about home schooling for?


----------



## Rikurzhen

ChrisL said:


> Rikurzhen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Rikurzhen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> Now, here is where the conservatives get a little cranky.  Lol. * I would like to see all the funds allocated towards schools pooled together* and distributed equally amongst the schools so that all the children are getting equal quality of education from their public school systems.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> People vote with their pocketbooks, they move to expensive homes where nearby schools are well funded by choice so that their kids get the benefit.
> 
> If you want to implement your plan then you need to de-link school funding from property taxes because people are willing to pay higher taxes in return for benefits which accrue to them or to their neighborhood, not to people clear across the state.
> 
> The best way forward is to have the state grant each school-age student a grant and then the student attends the school of his choice and the student turns over the grant money to the school. For parents who want their kids to have a more elaborate education, the schools can charge a supplementary tuition.
> 
> No parent is EVER going to sacrifice his child's education so that some other kid can possibly derive some benefit. Most of what drives high real estate prices is the quest for good schools. Junk the school and you crash property values.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Good schools are not the only advantage to paying higher property taxes.  That is a cop out, and at the cost of our society being well educated and well functioning, which in turn only makes us as a country stronger.  I would be willing to bet that this is part of the reason why some other countries outperform us when it comes to academics.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> We have NO PROBLEM with underfunded schools. Schools are not the reason some kids are not well educated nor well functioning. Look at this national data. White students who are poor enough to qualify for subsidized lunch programs and who were born to high school drop-out mothers perform at the same level as black kids who are not poor and who are born to mothers who are college graduates, in other words likely middle class or upper middle class blacks.
> 
> And before I get to that data, we are not under-performing internationally. Our Asian students are, with the exception of those from the CITY of Shanghai, are the best performing in the world. Our white students come in 2nd to Finland. Our Hispanic students are the best performing Hispanics students in the world. Our black students are the best performing in the world.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> So then you are saying that our public school system is fine?  Then what are you complaining about home schooling for?
Click to expand...


The problem with public schools is 1.) liberal indoctrination, 2.) composition of students, 3.) weird liberal pedagogy.

Home schooling fixes all three problems. Private and charter schools also fix those problems. Public schools are the opposite of diversity - they all operate on the same principles and ideology.


----------



## ChrisL

Rikurzhen said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Rikurzhen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Rikurzhen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> Now, here is where the conservatives get a little cranky.  Lol. * I would like to see all the funds allocated towards schools pooled together* and distributed equally amongst the schools so that all the children are getting equal quality of education from their public school systems.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> People vote with their pocketbooks, they move to expensive homes where nearby schools are well funded by choice so that their kids get the benefit.
> 
> If you want to implement your plan then you need to de-link school funding from property taxes because people are willing to pay higher taxes in return for benefits which accrue to them or to their neighborhood, not to people clear across the state.
> 
> The best way forward is to have the state grant each school-age student a grant and then the student attends the school of his choice and the student turns over the grant money to the school. For parents who want their kids to have a more elaborate education, the schools can charge a supplementary tuition.
> 
> No parent is EVER going to sacrifice his child's education so that some other kid can possibly derive some benefit. Most of what drives high real estate prices is the quest for good schools. Junk the school and you crash property values.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Good schools are not the only advantage to paying higher property taxes.  That is a cop out, and at the cost of our society being well educated and well functioning, which in turn only makes us as a country stronger.  I would be willing to bet that this is part of the reason why some other countries outperform us when it comes to academics.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> We have NO PROBLEM with underfunded schools. Schools are not the reason some kids are not well educated nor well functioning. Look at this national data. White students who are poor enough to qualify for subsidized lunch programs and who were born to high school drop-out mothers perform at the same level as black kids who are not poor and who are born to mothers who are college graduates, in other words likely middle class or upper middle class blacks.
> 
> And before I get to that data, we are not under-performing internationally. Our Asian students are, with the exception of those from the CITY of Shanghai, are the best performing in the world. Our white students come in 2nd to Finland. Our Hispanic students are the best performing Hispanics students in the world. Our black students are the best performing in the world.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> So then you are saying that our public school system is fine?  Then what are you complaining about home schooling for?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The problem with public schools is 1.) liberal indoctrination, 2.) composition of students, 3.) weird liberal pedagogy.
> 
> Home schooling fixes all three problems. Private and charter schools also fix those problems. Public schools are the opposite of diversity - they all operate on the same principles and ideology.
Click to expand...


Not all public schools have a liberal indoctrination.  I went to public school and my teachers stuck with the assigned curriculum for the most part.  If there was any kind of attempted indoctrination, it certainly wasn't enough to have effected my thought processes.  

Well, by "composition" of students, I think you mean different levels of learning amongst the student body?  Well, that is why we have different levels of classes, such as Algebra I, II, III, etc.  I'm certainly not saying that public schools are perfect, but then again neither is homeschooling.  We NEED public schools though, and we need them to be good because that only benefits everyone.  

There are also plenty of underprivileged children who are stuck going to bad schools that are not well funded, have a lot of problems, but they are smart kids with potential, so it's sad that they can't have the same opportunities to learn and grow as kids from the richer neighborhoods.


----------



## Tresha91203

ogibillm said:


> TheOldSchool said:
> 
> 
> 
> There are many resources out there today that make homeschooling a great option for lots of families.  As mentioned above the K12 curriculum is really good.  My organization works with several homeschooled children and it is our main resource.
> 
> 
> 
> there are good resources out there now, i don't disagree. but again, there's no reason those resources couldn't be used with kids in public schools to supplement or enhance their education.
Click to expand...


Some public schools are cesspools with few, if any, redeeming qualities. If the public school system has a high rate of pregnancies in middle school, and a high rate of second and third pregnancies in high school, it is better to not send my (non existent) daughters there.


----------



## Rikurzhen

ChrisL said:


> Not all public schools have a liberal indoctrination.  I went to public school and my teachers stuck with the assigned curriculum for the most part.  If there was any kind of attempted indoctrination, it certainly wasn't enough to have effected my thought processes.



1.) Things have changed.
2.) Indoctrination isn't often recognized as indoctrination by those who are inside the process. Think of it like this, people in Wisconsin don't realize that using the word bubbler instead of water fountain speaks to their acculturation, or people in the East saying "soda" instead of "pop" doing the same. Liberals have been on a mission to March Through The Institutions. A lot of values that people have picked up have come though schools indoctrinating.



> Well, by "composition" of students, I think you mean different levels of learning amongst the student body?



A good citizen will argue this but in real life "good students" equates with "few minority students." People know this but don't speak of it. Look at that table I provided. It's scandalous that a poor white student from parents who are high school drop-outs out-perform blacks kids from college educated parents. So when you find a middle class or upper middle class neighborhood you will get a pretty good school, but once middle class blacks move into that neighborhood, then the quality of the school will begin to decline and people will start moving out of the neighborhood in search of "better quality" schools.

Look back in American history, our public schools had higher levels of class diversity than they do today. The school student body was all white, or mostly all white. There were no really significant problems with class mixing. Archie Andrews could go to the same school as Veronica Lodge and not problem - all of the students where roughly in the same tiers and when tracking was instituted, that solved most of the remaining problems.



> Well, that is why we have different levels of classes, such as Algebra I, II, III, etc.  I'm certainly not saying that public schools are perfect, but then again neither is homeschooling.  We NEED public schools though, and we need them to be good because that only benefits everyone.



The school doesn't make good student outcomes, it's the student who does that. we can get good student outcomes from good students no matter where they are educated.



> There are also plenty of underprivileged children who are stuck going to bad schools that are not well funded, have a lot of problems, but they are smart kids with potential, so it's sad that they can't have the same opportunities to learn and grow as kids from the richer neighborhoods.



There are no "bad schools" there are rather schools with bad students. Check out this no-holds barred experiment:

For decades critics of the public schools have been saying, "You can't solve educational problems by throwing money at them." The education establishment and its supporters have replied, "No one's ever tried." In Kansas City they did try. *To improve the education of black students and encourage desegregation, a federal judge invited the Kansas City, Missouri, School District to come up with a cost-is-no-object educational plan and ordered local and state taxpayers to find the money to pay for it.*

Kansas City spent as much as $11,700 per pupil--more money per pupil, on a cost of living adjusted basis, *than any other of the 280 largest districts in the country.* The money bought higher teachers' salaries, 15 new schools, and such amenities as an Olympic-sized swimming pool with an underwater viewing room, television and animation studios, a robotics lab, a 25-acre wildlife sanctuary, a zoo, a model United Nations with simultaneous translation capability, and field trips to Mexico and Senegal.* The student-teacher ratio was 12 or 13 to 1, the lowest of any major school district in the country.*

*The results were dismal. Test scores did not rise; the black-white gap did not diminish; and there was less, not greater, integration.*

The Kansas City experiment suggests that, indeed, educational problems can't be solved by throwing money at them, that the structural problems of our current educational system are far more important than a lack of material resources, and that the focus on desegregation diverted attention from the real problem, low achievement.​


----------



## ChrisL

Rikurzhen said:


> 1.) Things have changed.
> 2.) Indoctrination isn't often recognized as indoctrination by those who are inside the process. Think of it like this, people in Wisconsin don't realize that using the word bubbler instead of water fountain speaks to their acculturation, or people in the East saying "soda" instead of "pop" doing the same. Liberals have been on a mission to March Through The Institutions. A lot of values that people have picked up have come though schools indoctrinating.



Well, that is one reason why I'm against teachers unions.  Don't get me wrong though, I am pro "industry" unions.  Lol.  That is another topic though, so let's not get side tracked, but teachers should be paid on merit, IMO.  



> A good citizen will argue this but in real life "good students" equates with "few minority students." People know this but don't speak of it. Look at that table I provided. It's scandalous that a poor white student from parents who are high school drop-outs out-perform blacks kids from college educated parents. So when you find a middle class or upper middle class neighborhood you will get a pretty good school, but once middle class blacks move into that neighborhood, then the quality of the school will begin to decline and people will start moving out of the neighborhood in search of "better quality" schools.



I think this is because of the poor neighborhoods where there is a lot of gang activity and crime.  That happens where there is poverty.  



> Look back in American history, our public schools had higher levels of class diversity than they do today. The school student body was all white, or mostly all white. There were no really significant problems with class mixing. Archie Andrews could go to the same school as Veronica Lodge and not problem - all of the students where roughly in the same tiers and when tracking was instituted, that solved most of the remaining problems.



Well now, I KNOW that is just not true.  I grew up in a small town, and there were not many black kids that I went to school with, but the few who did attend were very smart kids.  It's because they grew up in a more middle class environment instead of in the ghetto and had the same opportunities.  I think a lot of students would do a lot better with better teachers, better learning environments, etc., and all that comes from better funding and, of course, again there is the dastardly teachers union.  Lol!  



> The school doesn't make good student outcomes, it's the student who does that. we can get good student outcomes from good students no matter where they are educated.



I disagree.  Better schools and better teachers turn out better students.  There is the point that different people learn at different levels though, but there are no easy solutions for that in the public school system.  It is what it is.  It's the best we have right now for those who cannot home school their children for whatever reason.  



> There are no "bad schools" there are rather schools with bad students. Check out this no-holds barred experiment:
> 
> For decades critics of the public schools have been saying, "You can't solve educational problems by throwing money at them." The education establishment and its supporters have replied, "No one's ever tried." In Kansas City they did try. *To improve the education of black students and encourage desegregation, a federal judge invited the Kansas City, Missouri, School District to come up with a cost-is-no-object educational plan and ordered local and state taxpayers to find the money to pay for it.*
> 
> Kansas City spent as much as $11,700 per pupil--more money per pupil, on a cost of living adjusted basis, *than any other of the 280 largest districts in the country.* The money bought higher teachers' salaries, 15 new schools, and such amenities as an Olympic-sized swimming pool with an underwater viewing room, television and animation studios, a robotics lab, a 25-acre wildlife sanctuary, a zoo, a model United Nations with simultaneous translation capability, and field trips to Mexico and Senegal.* The student-teacher ratio was 12 or 13 to 1, the lowest of any major school district in the country.*
> 
> *The results were dismal. Test scores did not rise; the black-white gap did not diminish; and there was less, not greater, integration.*
> 
> The Kansas City experiment suggests that, indeed, educational problems can't be solved by throwing money at them, that the structural problems of our current educational system are far more important than a lack of material resources, and that the focus on desegregation diverted attention from the real problem, low achievement.​



I have to disagree with this.  I worked a lot today, and I'm very tired and unmotivated to look right now, but I've seen other studies that say the opposite, that when students are afforded better educational opportunities, they excel.  I'll try to find it tomorrow or something.


----------



## Rikurzhen

ChrisL said:


> I think this is because of the poor neighborhoods where there is a lot of gang activity and crime.  That happens where there is poverty.



America has spent trillions of dollars trying to get to the root causes of poor education outcomes and we've even done massive experiments on your question. Here from the National Bureau of Economic Research:

*Neighborhoods and Academic Achievement: Results from the Moving to Opportunity Experiment*

Families originally living in public housing were assigned housing vouchers by lottery, encouraging moves to* neighborhoods with lower poverty rates*. Although we had hypothesized that reading and math test scores would be higher among children in families offered vouchers (with larger effects among younger children), *the results show no significant effects on test scores for any age group among over 5000 children ages 6 to 20 in 2002 who were assessed four to seven years after randomization.* Program impacts on school environments were considerably smaller than impacts on neighborhoods, suggesting that achievement-related benefits from improved neighborhood environments are alone small.​
That's a large experiment, 5,000 kids of varied ages and followed for seven years. Lot's of time for good neighborhoods and schools to influence the kids



> Well now, I KNOW that is just not true.  I grew up in a small town, and there were not many black kids that I went to school with, but the few who did attend were very smart kids.  It's because they grew up in a more middle class environment instead of in the ghetto and had the same opportunities.  I think a lot of students would do a lot better with better teachers, better learning environments, etc., and all that comes from better funding and, of course, again there is the dastardly teachers union.  Lol!



Spend a minute and think about this data:






Their performance wasn't due to going your school, it was due to their being born to middle class parents.



> I disagree.  Better schools and better teachers turn out better students.  There is the point that different people learn at different levels though, but there are no easy solutions for that in the public school system.  It is what it is.  It's the best we have right now for those who cannot home school their children for whatever reason.



It's hard to do better than Princeton High School - fabulous teachers, well funded, rich neighborhood, professor's kids:

An uneasy amalgam of pride and discontent, Caroline Mitchell sat amid the balloons and beach chairs on the front lawn of Princeton High School, watching the Class of 2004 graduate.* Her pride was for the seniors' average SAT score of 1237, third-highest in the state*, and their admission to elite universities like Harvard, Yale and Duke.* As president of the high school alumni association* and community liaison for the school district, Ms. Mitchell deserved to bask in the tradition of public-education excellence.

Discontent, though, was what she felt about Blake, her own son. He was receiving his diploma on this June afternoon only after years of struggle - the failed English class in ninth grade, the science teacher who said he was capable only of C's, the assignment to a remedial "basic skills" class. Even at that, Ms. Mitchell realized,* Blake had fared better than several friends who were nowhere to be seen in the procession of gowns and mortarboards*. They were headed instead for summer school.

"I said to myself: 'Oh, no. Please, no,' " Ms. Mitchell recalled. "I was so hurt. These were bright kids. This shouldn't have been happening."

*It did not escape Ms. Mitchell's perception that her son and most of those faltering classmates were black. They were the evidence of a prosperous, accomplished school district's dirty little secret, a racial achievement gap that has been observed, acknowledged and left uncorrected for decades.* Now that pattern just may have to change under the pressure of the federal No Child Left Behind law.

Several months after Blake graduated, Princeton High School (and thus the district as a whole) ran afoul of the statute for the first time, based on the lagging scores of African-American students on a standardized English test given to 11th graders. Last month, the school was cited for the second year in a row, this time because* 37 percent of black students failed to meet standards in English, and 55 percent of blacks and 40 percent of Hispanics failed in math.*

One of the standard complaints about No Child Left Behind by its critics in public education is that it punishes urban schools that are chronically underfinanced and already contending with a concentration of poor, nonwhite, bilingual and special-education pupils.* Princeton could hardly be more different. It is an Ivy League town with a minority population of slightly more than 10 percent and per-student spending well above the state average. The high school sends 94 percent of its graduates to four-year colleges and offers 29 different Advanced Placement courses. Over all, 98 percent of Princeton High School students exceed the math and English standards required by No Child Left Behind.*​
If Princeton High School can't solve that problem, then what do imagine we can do that isn't already being done?


----------



## Physics Hunter

We are homeschooling our kids.

I went to public school, there was more fighting, sex and dope than learning.

I was lucky, I did my homework while listening to the next class lecture, looking out the window, and playing my favorite music in the back of my mind. 

The best part of Homeschooling is all the history stuff I learn by playing history memory lessons in the car and reading historical stuff to my kids in the evenings.  Essentially, I am being homeschooled too.


----------



## Samson

gallantwarrior said:


> Homeschooling improves the educational outcome more due to the personal involvement of the "teachers" involved.  If teachers were left to their own devices, to use their talents, many would be surprised at the outcome for public school students.  I know many teachers.  One of the reasons I teach at the University and not in K-12 public schools is because my students have a vested interest in their educational outcome.



Most reasons WHY Home-Schooled students have better test scores than Public School Students are as irrelevant as they are obvious: Home-schooled students by definition have many environmental advantages over Public School students that the Public School will _*never*_ be able to match. Plus the population of home-schooled students is very small (<4% of total US students) and probably very select (their parents likely began home schooling while they were in the womb). These parents did not just appear in 1996 when home-schooling became legal in all 50 states, and since then the concern of parents about public school teaching quality has not increased much more than it was in 1986, 1976, or 1966, etc. What has changed? Internet access to online curriculum, making home-schooled lesson plans and structure much easier to maintain so they can target successful completion of standardized tests.

What is extraordinary is the attention that such a small population draws from both sides of the partisan spectrum:

Educational Conservatives use the success of <4% of total students (see OP) as some sort of evidence that ALL efforts to educate ALL students attending ALL Public Schools are failing. Clearly, this is not the case.

Educational "Liberals" react to the success of <4% of total students learning outside the public school system as some sort of major tragedy threatening ALL Public Schools.
Again this is clearly not the case.

If any group should be very concerned about this growing 4%, it should be _Private Schools. _They are the real competitive substitute for home-schooled students. Parents will find that the economic benefit that home-schooling offers may make it a very popular choice. In fact, I foresee a tremendous rise in demand what was once called "governesses" or private tutors, employed in homes not only of the wealthy, but also in the upper-middle, and even middle class to substitute for private schooling.


----------



## Unkotare

Samson said:


> If any group should be very concerned about this growing 4%, it should be _Private Schools. _




Not to worry, private schools are _booming_.


----------



## Andylusion

Physics Hunter said:


> We are homeschooling our kids.
> 
> I went to public school, there was more fighting, sex and dope than learning.
> 
> I was lucky, I did my homework while listening to the next class lecture, looking out the window, and playing my favorite music in the back of my mind.
> 
> The best part of Homeschooling is all the history stuff I learn by playing history memory lessons in the car and reading historical stuff to my kids in the evenings.  Essentially, I am being homeschooled too.



I had a similar experience.  I learned more about which girls were easy to screw, who the drug dealers were, and when and where was the best time to get a hit, and while I didn't get in many fights, being 6 foot 2, and 200 lbs, I was always on guard.

I've learned far more than I ever did in school, by reading biographies, and history, and of course my favorite topic, economics.


----------



## Samson

Unkotare said:


> Samson said:
> 
> 
> 
> If any group should be very concerned about this growing 4%, it should be _Private Schools. _
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Not to worry, private schools are _booming_.
Click to expand...


*Figure 1. Private school enrollment in prekindergarten (preK) through grade 12, by grade level: School years 1995–96 through 2011–12 *

*





The Condition of Education - Participation in Education - Elementary Secondary Enrollment - Private School Enrollment - Indicator January 2014 *


----------



## Unkotare

Someone is missing the fact that school-aged people are declining, and that obamanomics has pushed more people further away from the upper end of middle class. 

Someone is also missing the enormous number of international students flocking to America to enroll in our schools. 


Fast Facts


More Chinese Students Attend K-12 Schools in the United States Study in the States


----------



## Samson

Unkotare said:


> Someone is missing the fact that school-aged people are declining, and that obamanomics has pushed more people further away from the upper end of middle class.
> 
> Someone is also missing the enormous number of international students flocking to America to enroll in our schools.
> 
> 
> Fast Facts
> 
> 
> More Chinese Students Attend K-12 Schools in the United States Study in the States




Someone is failing to make their post relevant.

But what else is new?


----------



## ogibillm

Androw said:


> Physics Hunter said:
> 
> 
> 
> We are homeschooling our kids.
> 
> I went to public school, there was more fighting, sex and dope than learning.
> 
> I was lucky, I did my homework while listening to the next class lecture, looking out the window, and playing my favorite music in the back of my mind.
> 
> The best part of Homeschooling is all the history stuff I learn by playing history memory lessons in the car and reading historical stuff to my kids in the evenings.  Essentially, I am being homeschooled too.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I had a similar experience.  I learned more about which girls were easy to screw, who the drug dealers were, and when and where was the best time to get a hit, and while I didn't get in many fights, being 6 foot 2, and 200 lbs, I was always on guard.
> 
> I've learned far more than I ever did in school, by reading biographies, and history, and of course my favorite topic, economics.
Click to expand...

sounds like you were a poor student.


----------



## gallantwarrior

ChrisL said:


> I think some kids would definitely benefit and learn more efficiently in a home environment, but that certainly isn't the case for all kids.  Plenty of them do just fine in the public school environment.  Of course, the quality of your public school system depends on where you live and how much funding your schools are receiving.
> 
> Now, here is where the conservatives get a little cranky.  Lol.  I would like to see all the funds allocated towards schools pooled together and distributed equally amongst the schools so that all the children are getting equal quality of education from their public school systems.


Throwing more money at a system that is failing to do a basic job of _educating_ and way to much _indoctrinating_ is not the solution.  And the one-size-fits-all concept, like No Child Left Behind, is not a solution, either.  One thing that needs to be done is to reestablish the goals of basic education, then the current curricula should be vetted to ensure that each class offered clearly supports the stated educational goals. Many subjects addressed in public school systems should not be, but should be left for the parents to address.  We need to rip all the PC bullshit out of the public schools and concentrate on teaching children to read, write properly, to become competent in basic mathematics and scientific concepts.  After those basics have been established, then offer more variety to older children in the form of electives.  We need to stop using public schools as laboratories for social engineering experiments.


----------



## Rikurzhen

gallantwarrior said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think some kids would definitely benefit and learn more efficiently in a home environment, but that certainly isn't the case for all kids.  Plenty of them do just fine in the public school environment.  Of course, the quality of your public school system depends on where you live and how much funding your schools are receiving.
> 
> Now, here is where the conservatives get a little cranky.  Lol.  I would like to see all the funds allocated towards schools pooled together and distributed equally amongst the schools so that all the children are getting equal quality of education from their public school systems.
> 
> 
> 
> Throwing more money at a system that is failing to do a basic job of _educating_ and way to much _indoctrinating_ is not the solution.  And the one-size-fits-all concept, like No Child Left Behind, is not a solution, either.  One thing that needs to be done is to reestablish the goals of basic education, then the current curricula should be vetted to ensure that each class offered clearly supports the stated educational goals. Many subjects addressed in public school systems should not be, but should be left for the parents to address.  We need to rip all the PC bullshit out of the public schools and concentrate on teaching children to read, write properly, to become competent in basic mathematics and scientific concepts.  After those basics have been established, then offer more variety to older children in the form of electives.  We need to stop using public schools as laboratories for social engineering experiments.
Click to expand...


-Throwing money at the problem doesn't fix the problem. You're correct.

-NCLB was a solution intended to fix the problem of the Achievement Gap. It would never work because it presumed that the Achievement Gap was caused by teaching methods and not by genetics.

-The goals of American education are to close the Achievement Gap. That's mission #1. Before liberals adopted this mission the old goal was "To raise each child to the highest level that their ability will permit." If we readopted the old mission then this wold explode the achievement gap wider than it is today.


----------



## ChrisL

Rikurzhen said:


> gallantwarrior said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think some kids would definitely benefit and learn more efficiently in a home environment, but that certainly isn't the case for all kids.  Plenty of them do just fine in the public school environment.  Of course, the quality of your public school system depends on where you live and how much funding your schools are receiving.
> 
> Now, here is where the conservatives get a little cranky.  Lol.  I would like to see all the funds allocated towards schools pooled together and distributed equally amongst the schools so that all the children are getting equal quality of education from their public school systems.
> 
> 
> 
> Throwing more money at a system that is failing to do a basic job of _educating_ and way to much _indoctrinating_ is not the solution.  And the one-size-fits-all concept, like No Child Left Behind, is not a solution, either.  One thing that needs to be done is to reestablish the goals of basic education, then the current curricula should be vetted to ensure that each class offered clearly supports the stated educational goals. Many subjects addressed in public school systems should not be, but should be left for the parents to address.  We need to rip all the PC bullshit out of the public schools and concentrate on teaching children to read, write properly, to become competent in basic mathematics and scientific concepts.  After those basics have been established, then offer more variety to older children in the form of electives.  We need to stop using public schools as laboratories for social engineering experiments.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> -Throwing money at the problem doesn't fix the problem. You're correct.
> 
> -NCLB was a solution intended to fix the problem of the Achievement Gap. It would never work because it presumed that the Achievement Gap was caused by teaching methods and not by genetics.
> 
> -The goals of American education are to close the Achievement Gap. That's mission #1. Before liberals adopted this mission the old goal was "To raise each child to the highest level that their ability will permit." If we readopted the old mission then this wold explode the achievement gap wider than it is today.
Click to expand...


That's fine, I don't have a problem with that.  I still stand by my belief that money should be distributed equally among the schools.  Otherwise, we are just perpetuating more of the same results, and it's really the inner city poor schools that bring down the averages.  They get the least funding and are the worst learning environments with lack of basic needs and good teachers because they cannot afford to bring on good teachers.  You are going to get what you put into it.


----------



## Rikurzhen

ChrisL said:


> Rikurzhen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> gallantwarrior said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think some kids would definitely benefit and learn more efficiently in a home environment, but that certainly isn't the case for all kids.  Plenty of them do just fine in the public school environment.  Of course, the quality of your public school system depends on where you live and how much funding your schools are receiving.
> 
> Now, here is where the conservatives get a little cranky.  Lol.  I would like to see all the funds allocated towards schools pooled together and distributed equally amongst the schools so that all the children are getting equal quality of education from their public school systems.
> 
> 
> 
> Throwing more money at a system that is failing to do a basic job of _educating_ and way to much _indoctrinating_ is not the solution.  And the one-size-fits-all concept, like No Child Left Behind, is not a solution, either.  One thing that needs to be done is to reestablish the goals of basic education, then the current curricula should be vetted to ensure that each class offered clearly supports the stated educational goals. Many subjects addressed in public school systems should not be, but should be left for the parents to address.  We need to rip all the PC bullshit out of the public schools and concentrate on teaching children to read, write properly, to become competent in basic mathematics and scientific concepts.  After those basics have been established, then offer more variety to older children in the form of electives.  We need to stop using public schools as laboratories for social engineering experiments.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> -Throwing money at the problem doesn't fix the problem. You're correct.
> 
> -NCLB was a solution intended to fix the problem of the Achievement Gap. It would never work because it presumed that the Achievement Gap was caused by teaching methods and not by genetics.
> 
> -The goals of American education are to close the Achievement Gap. That's mission #1. Before liberals adopted this mission the old goal was "To raise each child to the highest level that their ability will permit." If we readopted the old mission then this wold explode the achievement gap wider than it is today.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> That's fine, I don't have a problem with that.  I still stand by my belief that money should be distributed equally among the schools.  *Otherwise, we are just perpetuating more of the same results, and it's really the inner city poor schools that bring down the averages. * They get the least funding and are the worst learning environments with lack of basic needs and good teachers because they cannot afford to bring on good teachers.  You are going to get what you put into it.
Click to expand...







Inner city schools don't fail because they have low funding levels, they fail because they're filled with blacks who are intellectually below the black mean of IQ. The better performing blacks aren't living in high black concentrations.

New Jersey tackled your problem with their Abbott court decision. More here:

*Abbott districts* are school districts in New Jersey that are provided remedies to ensure that their students receive public education in accordance with New Jersey’s state constitution. They were *created in 1985* as a result of the first ruling of _Abbott v. Burke_, a case filed by the Education Law Center. The ruling asserted that public primary and secondary education in poor communities throughout the state was unconstitutionally substandard.[1] There are 31 "Abbott districts" in the state, which are now referred to as "SDA Districts" based on the requirement for the state to cover all costs for school building and renovation projects in these districts under the supervision of the New Jersey Schools Development Authority.[2]

Prior to 2011, the State of NJ did not release the total amount spent per pupil on schooling.* Since the Abbott original ruling in 1985, New Jersey increased spending such that Abbott district students received 22% more per pupil (at $20,859) vs. non-Abbott districts (at $17,051) in 2011.* [3]

Although key proponents of the measures express optimism that continued spending will eventually help advance students performance, *middle and high school students have not improved.* For them, the program has been characterized as "a huge failure"​There are no magic solutions. NONE. The problem of student underperformance, especially when it intersects race, is not one of environmental variables, it's almost all attributable to the human capital of the student.


----------



## ChrisL

Rikurzhen said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Rikurzhen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> gallantwarrior said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think some kids would definitely benefit and learn more efficiently in a home environment, but that certainly isn't the case for all kids.  Plenty of them do just fine in the public school environment.  Of course, the quality of your public school system depends on where you live and how much funding your schools are receiving.
> 
> Now, here is where the conservatives get a little cranky.  Lol.  I would like to see all the funds allocated towards schools pooled together and distributed equally amongst the schools so that all the children are getting equal quality of education from their public school systems.
> 
> 
> 
> Throwing more money at a system that is failing to do a basic job of _educating_ and way to much _indoctrinating_ is not the solution.  And the one-size-fits-all concept, like No Child Left Behind, is not a solution, either.  One thing that needs to be done is to reestablish the goals of basic education, then the current curricula should be vetted to ensure that each class offered clearly supports the stated educational goals. Many subjects addressed in public school systems should not be, but should be left for the parents to address.  We need to rip all the PC bullshit out of the public schools and concentrate on teaching children to read, write properly, to become competent in basic mathematics and scientific concepts.  After those basics have been established, then offer more variety to older children in the form of electives.  We need to stop using public schools as laboratories for social engineering experiments.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> -Throwing money at the problem doesn't fix the problem. You're correct.
> 
> -NCLB was a solution intended to fix the problem of the Achievement Gap. It would never work because it presumed that the Achievement Gap was caused by teaching methods and not by genetics.
> 
> -The goals of American education are to close the Achievement Gap. That's mission #1. Before liberals adopted this mission the old goal was "To raise each child to the highest level that their ability will permit." If we readopted the old mission then this wold explode the achievement gap wider than it is today.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> That's fine, I don't have a problem with that.  I still stand by my belief that money should be distributed equally among the schools.  *Otherwise, we are just perpetuating more of the same results, and it's really the inner city poor schools that bring down the averages. * They get the least funding and are the worst learning environments with lack of basic needs and good teachers because they cannot afford to bring on good teachers.  You are going to get what you put into it.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Inner city schools don't fail because they have low funding levels, they fail because they're filled with blacks who are intellectually below the black mean of IQ. The better performing blacks aren't living in high black concentrations.
> 
> New Jersey tackled your problem with their Abbott court decision. More here:
> 
> *Abbott districts* are school districts in New Jersey that are provided remedies to ensure that their students receive public education in accordance with New Jersey’s state constitution. They were *created in 1985* as a result of the first ruling of _Abbott v. Burke_, a case filed by the Education Law Center. The ruling asserted that public primary and secondary education in poor communities throughout the state was unconstitutionally substandard.[1] There are 31 "Abbott districts" in the state, which are now referred to as "SDA Districts" based on the requirement for the state to cover all costs for school building and renovation projects in these districts under the supervision of the New Jersey Schools Development Authority.[2]
> 
> Prior to 2011, the State of NJ did not release the total amount spent per pupil on schooling.* Since the Abbott original ruling in 1985, New Jersey increased spending such that Abbott district students received 22% more per pupil (at $20,859) vs. non-Abbott districts (at $17,051) in 2011.* [3]
> 
> Although key proponents of the measures express optimism that continued spending will eventually help advance students performance, *middle and high school students have not improved.* For them, the program has been characterized as "a huge failure"​There are no magic solutions. NONE. The problem of student underperformance, especially when it intersects race, is not one of environmental variables, it's almost all attributable to the human capital of the student.
Click to expand...


This is just going by the national averages and spending in general.  There are CERTAIN schools in inner cities that UNDER funded because they are in more poor sections with less tax money collected.  Therefore, the kids are NOT getting a decent education.  

If you care about America as a whole country, you would realize how detrimental this is to our country's future.


----------



## Rikurzhen

ChrisL said:


> This is just going by the national averages and spending in general.  There are CERTAIN schools in inner cities that UNDER funded because they are in more poor sections with less tax money collected.  Therefore, the kids are NOT getting a decent education.
> 
> If you care about America as a whole country, you would realize how detrimental this is to our country's future.



As I noted upthread, I have no problem with a symbolic solution which entails a state providing each student with a fixed stipend which can buy a minimum level of education and thereafter each parent contributes their own funds to make up for a more-than-minimum schooling cost.

Look at my post #206 again. Those troubled school districts that you're talking about are the ones, in NJ, which received * $20,859 *per student versus the* $17,051* received by non-troubled schools, like those attended by the residents of Princeton. This is EXACTLY what you're advocating, if not more, and it had NO EFFECT. 

Look at that graph. Spending has increased significantly over the years and performance has not.

Spending can't cure racial differences in student performance anymore than spending can allow men to bear children.


----------



## ChrisL

Rikurzhen said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> This is just going by the national averages and spending in general.  There are CERTAIN schools in inner cities that UNDER funded because they are in more poor sections with less tax money collected.  Therefore, the kids are NOT getting a decent education.
> 
> If you care about America as a whole country, you would realize how detrimental this is to our country's future.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As I noted upthread, I have no problem with a symbolic solution which entails a state providing each student with a fixed stipend which can buy a minimum level of education and thereafter each parent contributes their own funds to make up for a more-than-minimum schooling cost.
> 
> Look at my post #206 again. Those troubled school districts that you're talking about are the ones, in NJ, which received * $20,859 *per student versus the* $17,051* received by non-troubled schools, like those attended by the residents of Princeton. This is EXACTLY what you're advocating, if not more, and it had NO EFFECT.
> 
> Look at that graph. Spending has increased significantly over the years and performance has not.
> 
> Spending can't cure racial differences in student performance anymore than spending can allow men to bear children.
Click to expand...


The chart does not break down spending, and it is a fact that many schools in inner cities are underfunded, cannot afford decent teachers, and are overcrowded.  In a neighboring state to mine, a lot of schools have had to close down because they can no longer afford to stay open, and then they just ship the kids off to another school in a neighboring district.  

I disagree that it would have no effect if all schools received equal funding.


----------



## Rikurzhen

ChrisL said:


> I disagree that it would have no effect if all schools received equal funding.



Did you not read what I wrote to you? Comment #206 directly refutes your belief with a state-wide experiment which has no been running for 29 years in NJ where those inner city schools actually get MORE FUNDING than suburban schools.


----------



## ChrisL

Rikurzhen said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> I disagree that it would have no effect if all schools received equal funding.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Did you not read what I wrote to you? Comment #206 directly refutes your belief with a state-wide experiment which has no been running for 29 years in NJ where those inner city schools actually get MORE FUNDING than suburban schools.
Click to expand...


I didn't see the chart you posted in your link about New Jersey.  

Also, these things take time, and your wiki article seems to be mistaken, according to my link below.  We also still have the teachers' union to contend with.  New Jersey's teachers' union is pretty infamous after the Chris Christy incident.  Lol!  

New Jersey s Decades-Long School Finance Case So What s the Payoff TC Media Center



> Sciarra, whose organization serves as a legal watchdog for the Abbott districts, said the gap in state math test scores between fourth graders in Abbott districts and non-Abbott districts narrowed from 31 points in 1999 to 19 points in 2007, and on state reading tests from 22 points in 2001 to 15 points in 2007. Success in eighth grade was more modest, narrowing from 30 points in 2000 for math in 2000 to 26 points in 2007, and staying at 20 points for reading during the same years. The achievement gap has not narrowed in high schools, but New Jersey has the highest high school graduation rates in the nation for African American males, Sciarra said.
> 
> “The truth is, we have started to make some real progress,” Sciarra said. “When people ask, ‘what did _Abbott _do,’ I say, we still have a long way to go, but the answer is, a heck of a lot.”


----------



## Rikurzhen

ChrisL said:


> Rikurzhen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> I disagree that it would have no effect if all schools received equal funding.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Did you not read what I wrote to you? Comment #206 directly refutes your belief with a state-wide experiment which has no been running for 29 years in NJ where those inner city schools actually get MORE FUNDING than suburban schools.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I didn't see the chart you posted in your link about New Jersey.
> 
> Also, these things take time, and your wiki article seems to be mistaken, according to my link below.  We also still have the teachers' union to contend with.  New Jersey's teachers' union is pretty infamous after the Chris Christy incident.  Lol!
> 
> New Jersey s Decades-Long School Finance Case So What s the Payoff TC Media Center
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sciarra, whose organization serves as a legal watchdog for the Abbott districts, said the gap in state math test scores between fourth graders in Abbott districts and non-Abbott districts narrowed from 31 points in 1999 to 19 points in 2007, and on state reading tests from 22 points in 2001 to 15 points in 2007. Success in eighth grade was more modest, narrowing from 30 points in 2000 for math in 2000 to 26 points in 2007, and staying at 20 points for reading during the same years. The achievement gap has not narrowed in high schools, but New Jersey has the highest high school graduation rates in the nation for African American males, Sciarra said.
> 
> “The truth is, we have started to make some real progress,” Sciarra said. “When people ask, ‘what did _Abbott _do,’ I say, we still have a long way to go, but the answer is, a heck of a lot.”
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


I won't get into the biology of what is happening but I can explain it by appealing to parenting. Any parent can tell you that they have more control over the minutia of their 3 year old child's life than they do over the minutia of their 16 year old child's life. The same dynamic works in schools. With young kids, we adults can SWAMP their environment but as kids get older they begin to exert THEMSELVES and resist having their environments controlled by adults. A kindergarten teacher can tell her kids to take a nap and the kids will comply, but a 12th grade teacher has nothing close to that level of control over students.  

As we all get older we come into ourselves, we're no longer the little puppets we were when we were kids. So those gains we see in the 4th grade DON'T STICK. They diminish by the 8th grade and they're totally absent by the 12th grade. The student is no better prepared for college than their counterpart in a school that didn't have the intervention program. 

This is first year genetics material but education professionals are totally damn clueless about biology and genetics.

What counts are the outcomes, getting those kids across the 12th grade finish line and having them prepared for life. These programs don't work and they can't work, not without draconian levels of control - taking kids away from their parents, standardizing their social interactions and friendships, controlling their activities down to the minute, etc. something that 16 and 18 year olds will not stand for.

The teachers unions are not having any effect here. They're bad for different reasons but they're not the roadblock here because we see the same outcomes all over the place regardless of whether teacher unions are present or not.


----------



## ChrisL

Rikurzhen said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Rikurzhen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> I disagree that it would have no effect if all schools received equal funding.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Did you not read what I wrote to you? Comment #206 directly refutes your belief with a state-wide experiment which has no been running for 29 years in NJ where those inner city schools actually get MORE FUNDING than suburban schools.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I didn't see the chart you posted in your link about New Jersey.
> 
> Also, these things take time, and your wiki article seems to be mistaken, according to my link below.  We also still have the teachers' union to contend with.  New Jersey's teachers' union is pretty infamous after the Chris Christy incident.  Lol!
> 
> New Jersey s Decades-Long School Finance Case So What s the Payoff TC Media Center
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sciarra, whose organization serves as a legal watchdog for the Abbott districts, said the gap in state math test scores between fourth graders in Abbott districts and non-Abbott districts narrowed from 31 points in 1999 to 19 points in 2007, and on state reading tests from 22 points in 2001 to 15 points in 2007. Success in eighth grade was more modest, narrowing from 30 points in 2000 for math in 2000 to 26 points in 2007, and staying at 20 points for reading during the same years. The achievement gap has not narrowed in high schools, but New Jersey has the highest high school graduation rates in the nation for African American males, Sciarra said.
> 
> “The truth is, we have started to make some real progress,” Sciarra said. “When people ask, ‘what did _Abbott _do,’ I say, we still have a long way to go, but the answer is, a heck of a lot.”
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I won't get into the biology of what is happening but I can explain it by appealing to parenting. Any parent can tell you that they have more control over the minutia of their 3 year old child's life than they do over the minutia of their 16 year old child's life. The same dynamic works in schools. With young kids, we adults can SWAMP their environment but as kids get older they begin to exert THEMSELVES and resist having their environments controlled by adults. A kindergarten teacher can tell her kids to take a nap and the kids will comply, but a 12th grade teacher has nothing close to that level of control over students.
> 
> As we all get older we come into ourselves, we're no longer the little puppets we were when we were kids. So those gains we see in the 4th grade DON'T STICK. They diminish by the 8th grade and they're totally absent by the 12th grade. The student is no better prepared for college than their counterpart in a school that didn't have the intervention program.
> 
> This is first year genetics material but education professionals are totally damn clueless about biology and genetics.
> 
> What counts are the outcomes, getting those kids across the 12th grade finish line and having them prepared for life. These programs don't work and they can't work, not without draconian levels of control - taking kids away from their parents, standardizing their social interactions and friendships, controlling their activities down to the minute, etc. something that 16 and 18 year olds will not stand for.
> 
> The teachers unions are not having any effect here. They're bad for different reasons but they're not the roadblock here because we see the same outcomes all over the place regardless of whether teacher unions are present or not.
Click to expand...


Yes, teachers unions are part of the problem because they are all about tenure instead of merit.  They protect bad teachers from being fired when they SHOULD be fired.  There are other things too.  

I don't know what it is you are suggesting here?  Doing away with public schools?    That is silly if that's the case.


----------



## Unkotare

Samson said:


> Someone is failing to make their post relevant.




Don't beat yourself up about it, just try harder from now on.


----------



## NoNukes

Unkotare said:


> NoNukes said:
> 
> 
> 
> I am probably the most experienced person on the thread as far as education is concerned.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Why do you say that?[/QUOTE
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> NoNukes said:
> 
> 
> 
> I am probably the most experienced person on the thread as far as education is concerned.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Why do you say that?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> My post graduate work was in education.
> I have taught in primary schools, secondary schools, and I have lectured in universities.
Click to expand...


----------



## House

The problem with home schooling is that the student is limited to the abilities of the parent(s) providing the instruction.

Not a bad deal at all if the parents are fairly intelligent, but consider... would you just pull any adult off the street and ask them to teach  *your* child, even if there was a fairy tale world where there was zero chance they would abuse that child?

I sure as hell wouldn't, people are idiots.


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## Unkotare

NoNukes said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> NoNukes said:
> 
> 
> 
> I am probably the most experienced person on the thread as far as education is concerned.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Why do you say that?[/QUOTE
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> NoNukes said:
> 
> 
> 
> I am probably the most experienced person on the thread as far as education is concerned.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Why do you say that?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> My post graduate work was in education.
> I have taught in primary schools, secondary schools, and I have lectured in universities.
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...



Me too, and I think there are at least a few retired or current teachers on the board, so.......


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## House

(To clarify for the slow witted: I'm neither implying nor assuming parents get random third-party individuals to teach their children, but if you wouldn't trust your child to their educational skills do you really think such people should be allowed to teach their own children? It is still a disservice to society either way.)


----------



## Unkotare

House said:


> (To clarify for the slow witted: I'm neither implying nor assuming parents get random third-party individuals to teach their children, but if you wouldn't trust your child to their educational skills do you really think such people should be allowed to teach their own children? It is still a disservice to society either way.)




"Allowed"? "Allowed"? Are you serious?


----------



## House

Unkotare said:


> House said:
> 
> 
> 
> (To clarify for the slow witted: I'm neither implying nor assuming parents get random third-party individuals to teach their children, but if you wouldn't trust your child to their educational skills do you really think such people should be allowed to teach their own children? It is still a disservice to society either way.)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "Allowed"? "Allowed"? Are you serious?
Click to expand...


As a fucking heart attack. Do you not interact with society at all? There are some grade A dumbasses that I wouldn't trust to train a dog not to shit on the floor.


----------



## NoNukes

Unkotare said:


> NoNukes said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> NoNukes said:
> 
> 
> 
> I am probably the most experienced person on the thread as far as education is concerned.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Why do you say that?[/QUOTE
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> NoNukes said:
> 
> 
> 
> I am probably the most experienced person on the thread as far as education is concerned.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Why do you say that?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> My post graduate work was in education.
> I have taught in primary schools, secondary schools, and I have lectured in universities.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Me too, and I think there are at least a few retired or current teachers on the board, so.......
Click to expand...

Then we are the ones speaking from experience.


----------



## Unkotare

NoNukes said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> NoNukes said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> NoNukes said:
> 
> 
> 
> I am probably the most experienced person on the thread as far as education is concerned.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Why do you say that?[/QUOTE
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> NoNukes said:
> 
> 
> 
> I am probably the most experienced person on the thread as far as education is concerned.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Why do you say that?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> My post graduate work was in education.
> I have taught in primary schools, secondary schools, and I have lectured in universities.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Me too, and I think there are at least a few retired or current teachers on the board, so.......
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Then we are the ones speaking from experience.
Click to expand...



Anyone who has raised children and put them through school also speaks from experience. Don't forget that.


----------



## ChrisL

House said:


> (To clarify for the slow witted: I'm neither implying nor assuming parents get random third-party individuals to teach their children, but if you wouldn't trust your child to their educational skills do you really think such people should be allowed to teach their own children? It is still a disservice to society either way.)



Yes, they should be "allowed."  Some turn out some very successful people.  For others, it doesn't work out for whatever reason.  We still certainly need public schools because most parents have to work full time, and there isn't enough time.  Homeschooled children still have to pass all the same testing requirements as do public school kids, I'm pretty sure.


----------



## Samson

House said:


> (To clarify for the slow witted: I'm neither implying nor assuming parents get random third-party individuals to teach their children, but if you wouldn't trust your child to their educational skills do you really think such people should be allowed to teach their own children? It is still a disservice to society either way.)



When you say "It" is a disservice to society, you mean that parents cannot be trusted to choose themselves as teachers any more that randomly chosen "third party individuals?"

We're assuming the state chooses teachers better than  parents choose themselves, and that there are no standards to be met in homeschool environments.

Both assumptions are unsupported by any evidence.


----------



## Samson

Unkotare said:


> Samson said:
> 
> 
> 
> Someone is failing to make their post relevant.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Don't beat yourself up about it, just try harder from now on.
Click to expand...


I meant you, short-bus.

You need to find a simpler thread to follow.


----------



## R.D.

Unkotare said:


> House said:
> 
> 
> 
> (To clarify for the slow witted: I'm neither implying nor assuming parents get random third-party individuals to teach their children, but if you wouldn't trust your child to their educational skills do you really think such people should be allowed to teach their own children? It is still a disservice to society either way.)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "Allowed"? "Allowed"? Are you serious?
Click to expand...

Why not?   

A lot of talk about how great it is, but there are many failures as well.   Parents who don't take an active part in their children's "public" education are some of the same parents deciding to home school....they don't care either way.


----------



## Samson

ChrisL said:


> House said:
> 
> 
> 
> (To clarify for the slow witted: I'm neither implying nor assuming parents get random third-party individuals to teach their children, but if you wouldn't trust your child to their educational skills do you really think such people should be allowed to teach their own children? It is still a disservice to society either way.)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, they should be "allowed."  Some turn out some very successful people.  For others, it doesn't work out for whatever reason.  We still certainly need public schools because most parents have to work full time, and there isn't enough time.  Homeschooled children still have to pass all the same testing requirements as do public school kids, I'm pretty sure.
Click to expand...


The subject of "allowing" home schooling is settled: all 50 states have legalized it. The justification is academic, and the fact that is has been widespread and popularized after debate in 50 separate state legislatures makes anyone's argument Against it at this point more than ridiculously dated.


----------



## Samson

R.D. said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> House said:
> 
> 
> 
> (To clarify for the slow witted: I'm neither implying nor assuming parents get random third-party individuals to teach their children, but if you wouldn't trust your child to their educational skills do you really think such people should be allowed to teach their own children? It is still a disservice to society either way.)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "Allowed"? "Allowed"? Are you serious?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Why not?
> 
> A lot of talk about how great it is, but there are many failures as well.   Parents who don't take an active part in their children's "public" education are some of the same parents deciding to home school....they don't care either way.
Click to expand...


You must have missed the evidence of homeschooling success posted on page one.

Do we need a review?


----------



## ChrisL

Samson said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> House said:
> 
> 
> 
> (To clarify for the slow witted: I'm neither implying nor assuming parents get random third-party individuals to teach their children, but if you wouldn't trust your child to their educational skills do you really think such people should be allowed to teach their own children? It is still a disservice to society either way.)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, they should be "allowed."  Some turn out some very successful people.  For others, it doesn't work out for whatever reason.  We still certainly need public schools because most parents have to work full time, and there isn't enough time.  Homeschooled children still have to pass all the same testing requirements as do public school kids, I'm pretty sure.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The subject of "allowing" home schooling is settled: all 50 states have legalized it. The justification is academic, and the fact that is has been widespread and popularized after debate in 50 separate state legislatures makes anyone's argument Against it at this point more than ridiculously dated.
Click to expand...


If a parent has the time, energy and knowledge, then I don't have a problem with it at all.


----------



## House

Samson said:


> We're assuming the state chooses teachers better than  parents choose themselves



That's self-evident. Parents "choose" themselves by either saying or allowing, "baby let me hit it raw dog" far too often in this country.

The ability and willingness to procreate is not indicative of fitness to parent, let alone teach.


----------



## House

ChrisL said:


> Samson said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> House said:
> 
> 
> 
> (To clarify for the slow witted: I'm neither implying nor assuming parents get random third-party individuals to teach their children, but if you wouldn't trust your child to their educational skills do you really think such people should be allowed to teach their own children? It is still a disservice to society either way.)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, they should be "allowed."  Some turn out some very successful people.  For others, it doesn't work out for whatever reason.  We still certainly need public schools because most parents have to work full time, and there isn't enough time.  Homeschooled children still have to pass all the same testing requirements as do public school kids, I'm pretty sure.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The subject of "allowing" home schooling is settled: all 50 states have legalized it. The justification is academic, and the fact that is has been widespread and popularized after debate in 50 separate state legislatures makes anyone's argument Against it at this point more than ridiculously dated.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> If a parent has the time, energy *and knowledge*, then I don't have a problem with it at all.
Click to expand...


I'm glad we agree.


----------



## ChrisL

House said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Samson said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> House said:
> 
> 
> 
> (To clarify for the slow witted: I'm neither implying nor assuming parents get random third-party individuals to teach their children, but if you wouldn't trust your child to their educational skills do you really think such people should be allowed to teach their own children? It is still a disservice to society either way.)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, they should be "allowed."  Some turn out some very successful people.  For others, it doesn't work out for whatever reason.  We still certainly need public schools because most parents have to work full time, and there isn't enough time.  Homeschooled children still have to pass all the same testing requirements as do public school kids, I'm pretty sure.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The subject of "allowing" home schooling is settled: all 50 states have legalized it. The justification is academic, and the fact that is has been widespread and popularized after debate in 50 separate state legislatures makes anyone's argument Against it at this point more than ridiculously dated.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> If a parent has the time, energy *and knowledge*, then I don't have a problem with it at all.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I'm glad we agree.
Click to expand...


Sure, there are definitely some parents who should probably not attempt to home school for whatever reasons.  

I do agree with others to an extent though that some public school systems really need to concentrate more on the basics.  

Also, some teachers are certainly better than others.  I think that the teachers' unions are certainly NOT in the best interest of our kids.  I think that could be the biggest reason why some of our public schools are not doing well.


----------



## Samson

House said:


> Samson said:
> 
> 
> 
> We're assuming the state chooses teachers better than  parents choose themselves
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That's self-evident. Parents "choose" themselves by either saying or allowing, "baby let me hit it raw dog" far too often in this country.
> 
> The ability and willingness to procreate is not indicative of fitness to parent, let alone teach.
Click to expand...


No, it is not "self-evident." There are many things parents do for their children that benefit their children better than the state besides simply procreating.

Choosing themselves to teach their own children certainly is not a novel concept within the scope of human history, in "this country," and in fact, the planet earth.

You are on the same planet, right?


----------



## Samson

ChrisL said:


> Sure, there are definitely some parents who should probably not attempt to home school for whatever reasons.
> 
> I do agree with others to an extent though that some public school systems really need to concentrate more on the basics.
> 
> Also, some teachers are certainly better than others.  I think that the teachers' unions are certainly NOT in the best interest of our kids.  I think that could be the biggest reason why some of our public schools are not doing well.



Agreed: An argument for or against home-schooling based on the quality of the parent/teacher is a little ridiculous. Standards are placed for learning, if the parent teacher fails to teach, their child fails to learn, and this is reflected in standardized testing. Evidence from the OP suggests this is a very rare condition, but we can imagine it happens, however, it also happens in public school settings. There is no evidence to support the notion it happens more in home schooling environments.


----------



## hadit

House said:


> The problem with home schooling is that the student is limited to the abilities of the parent(s) providing the instruction.
> 
> Not a bad deal at all if the parents are fairly intelligent, but consider... would you just pull any adult off the street and ask them to teach  *your* child, even if there was a fairy tale world where there was zero chance they would abuse that child?
> 
> I sure as hell wouldn't, people are idiots.



That simply is not the case.  There are many fine online curricula that parents can utilize to their children's benefit.  While my wife and I are both college educated, we used such a curriculum that allowed our kids to upload their assignments to be corrected by teachers on the other end.  Therefore, even poorly educated parents have no problem helping their children exceed the performance of their counterparts in government schools.


----------



## hadit

ChrisL said:


> House said:
> 
> 
> 
> (To clarify for the slow witted: I'm neither implying nor assuming parents get random third-party individuals to teach their children, but if you wouldn't trust your child to their educational skills do you really think such people should be allowed to teach their own children? It is still a disservice to society either way.)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, they should be "allowed."  Some turn out some very successful people.  For others, it doesn't work out for whatever reason.  We still certainly need public schools because most parents have to work full time, and there isn't enough time.  Homeschooled children still have to pass all the same testing requirements as do public school kids, I'm pretty sure.
Click to expand...


We tested ours on the national tests, just to be sure they were staying on track.


----------



## Unkotare

R.D. said:


> Why not?  .




How about it's none of your fucking business?

Lots of people are bad cooks. Does that mean that some presumptuous douche like you can tell them they aren't "allowed" to cook for their own families? Lots of people might be 'bad' parents according to some presumptuous douche like you. Does that mean they shouldn't be "allowed" to have children at all? Who the fuck are you again?


----------



## Unkotare

Samson said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Samson said:
> 
> 
> 
> Someone is failing to make their post relevant.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Don't beat yourself up about it, just try harder from now on.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I meant you, short-bus.
> 
> You need to find a simpler thread to follow.
Click to expand...


You failed to recognize that you were describing yourself, square wheels.


----------



## Unkotare

R.D. said:


> Parents who don't take an active part in their children's "public" education are some of the same parents deciding to home school....they don't care either way.




Why don't you try thinking that one through again...

...


----------



## Samson

Unkotare said:


> Samson said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Samson said:
> 
> 
> 
> Someone is failing to make their post relevant.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Don't beat yourself up about it, just try harder from now on.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I meant you, short-bus.
> 
> You need to find a simpler thread to follow.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You failed to recognize that you were describing yourself, square wheels.
Click to expand...


Rapier wit: "I know you are but what am I."



Its clear why you washed out of military service but continue to wannabe.

Pitiful, but still amusing.


----------



## Rikurzhen

House said:


> The problem with home schooling is that the student is limited to the abilities of the parent(s) providing the instruction.
> 
> Not a bad deal at all if the parents are fairly intelligent, but consider... would you just pull any adult off the street and ask them to teach  *your* child, even if there was a fairy tale world where there was zero chance they would abuse that child?
> 
> I sure as hell wouldn't, people are idiots.



Then why are you sending your kids to public schools? If you're a university graduate the odds are fairly good that you're more intelligent, and thus more likely to have a better intuitive grasp of how education works for your child and also have a more refined bullshit detector, than your kids teachers, for education majors are usually drawn from the lowest performing tiers on the SAT. Girls who go to university to major in Dance score higher than Education majors. Education majors (1442) are equidistant between construction workers (1274) and Liberal Arts students (1613).


----------



## Unkotare

Samson said:


> Its clear why you washed out of military service but continue to wannabe.



??????????????????

What the hell are you talking about, dimwit?


----------



## Samson

Unkotare said:


> Samson said:
> 
> 
> 
> Its clear why you washed out of military service but continue to wannabe.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ??????????????????
> 
> What the hell are you talking about, dimwit?
Click to expand...



Pitiful, but happy to explain it to you:

1. Clearly you're out of your depth regarding every other subject about which you attempt to make a comment.

2. You need to start a tread all your own. Something you know at least a little about.

3. I suggest, "Frustrations of being Washed Out of Military Service."​
I tried to keep the plan simple for you, but if you still need help, please do not hesitate to ask.


----------



## Unkotare

Samson said:


> 1. Clearly you're out of your depth regarding every other subject about which you attempt to make a comment....​


​

For example?


----------



## Unkotare

Samson said:


> 2. You need to start a tread all your own. ...​


​
A "tread," eh? How does one start a "tread," genius?


----------



## Samson

Rikurzhen said:


> House said:
> 
> 
> 
> The problem with home schooling is that the student is limited to the abilities of the parent(s) providing the instruction.
> 
> Not a bad deal at all if the parents are fairly intelligent, but consider... would you just pull any adult off the street and ask them to teach  *your* child, even if there was a fairy tale world where there was zero chance they would abuse that child?
> 
> I sure as hell wouldn't, people are idiots.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Then why are you sending your kids to public schools? If you're a university graduate the odds are fairly good that you're more intelligent, and thus more likely to have a better intuitive grasp of how education works for your child and also have a more refined bullshit detector, than your kids teachers, for education majors are usually drawn from the lowest performing tiers on the SAT. Girls who go to university to major in Dance score higher than Education majors. Education majors (1442) are equidistant between construction workers (1274) and Liberal Arts students (1613).
Click to expand...

Most reasons WHY Home-Schooled students have better test scores than Public School Students are as irrelevant as they are obvious: Home-schooled students by definition have many environmental advantages over Public School students that the Public School will _*never*_ be able to match. Plus the population of home-schooled students is very small (<4% of total US students) and probably very select (their parents likely began home schooling while they were in the womb). These parents did not just appear in 1996 when home-schooling became legal in all 50 states, and since then the concern of parents about public school teaching quality has not increased much more than it was in 1986, 1976, or 1966, etc. What has changed? Internet access to online curriculum, making home-schooled lesson plans and structure much easier to maintain so they can target successful completion of standardized tests.

What is extraordinary is the attention that such a small population draws from both sides of the partisan spectrum:

Educational Conservatives use the success of <4% of total students (see OP) as some sort of evidence that ALL efforts to educate ALL students attending ALL Public Schools are failing. Clearly, this is not the case.

Educational "Liberals" react to the success of <4% of total students learning outside the public school system as some sort of major tragedy threatening ALL Public Schools.
Again this is clearly not the case.

If any group should be very concerned about this growing 4%, it should be _Private Schools. _They are the real competitive substitute for home-schooled students. Parents will find that the economic benefit that home-schooling offers may make it a very popular choice. In fact, I foresee a tremendous rise in demand what was once called "governesses" or private tutors, employed in homes not only of the wealthy, but also in the upper-middle, and even middle class to substitute for private schooling.


----------



## Samson

Unkotare said:


> Samson said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2. You need to start a tread all your own. ...​
> 
> 
> 
> ​
> A "tread," eh? How does one start a "tread," genius?
Click to expand...


See, you're off to a great start:

You could start a thread about catching other's typos.

Then you could let us know how frustrating it must be to have not qualified for military service even with your awesome skills.


----------



## Unkotare

Samson said:


> 3. I suggest, "Frustrations of being Washed Out of Military Service."...​


​
What drugs did you take that gave you that idea, dimwit? Did you just completely pull that one out of your ass, or are you just stupider than usual today?


----------



## Unkotare

Samson said:


> Then you could let us know how frustrating it must be to have not qualified for military service even with your awesome skills.




Are you going to explain this little fantasy of yours, or have you gone full Rain Man now?


----------



## Samson

Unkotare said:


> Samson said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 1. Clearly you're out of your depth regarding every other subject about which you attempt to make a comment....​
> 
> 
> 
> ​
> 
> For example?
Click to expand...



You're already stuck on step number one?

Assisting you will be more work that its worth. I suggest professional help.


----------



## Samson

Unkotare said:


> Samson said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 3. I suggest, "Frustrations of being Washed Out of Military Service."...​
> 
> 
> 
> ​
> What drugs did you take that gave you that idea, dimwit? Did you just completely pull that one out of your ass, or are you just stupider than usual today?
Click to expand...



It is quite obvious.

Poor thing.


----------



## Unkotare

Samson said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Samson said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 1. Clearly you're out of your depth regarding every other subject about which you attempt to make a comment....​
> 
> 
> 
> ​
> 
> For example?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> You're already stuck on step number one?
> 
> Assisting you will be more work that its worth. I suggest professional help.
Click to expand...



So, today's theme is you saying random, stupid nonsense that you can't support in any way?  Well, you couldn't look any more idiotic than you already do, so...


----------



## Unkotare

Samson said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Samson said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 3. I suggest, "Frustrations of being Washed Out of Military Service."...​
> 
> 
> 
> ​
> What drugs did you take that gave you that idea, dimwit? Did you just completely pull that one out of your ass, or are you just stupider than usual today?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> It is quite obvious....
Click to expand...



What is "quite obvious," other than the fact that you stoned to the gills?


----------



## House

Samson said:


> (their parents likely began home schooling while they were in the womb).



Recess must be a bitch.


----------



## Samson

House said:


> Samson said:
> 
> 
> 
> (their parents likely began home schooling while they were in the womb).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Recess must be a bitch.
Click to expand...



Troll!!!!


----------



## ChrisL

hadit said:


> House said:
> 
> 
> 
> The problem with home schooling is that the student is limited to the abilities of the parent(s) providing the instruction.
> 
> Not a bad deal at all if the parents are fairly intelligent, but consider... would you just pull any adult off the street and ask them to teach  *your* child, even if there was a fairy tale world where there was zero chance they would abuse that child?
> 
> I sure as hell wouldn't, people are idiots.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That simply is not the case.  There are many fine online curricula that parents can utilize to their children's benefit.  While my wife and I are both college educated, we used such a curriculum that allowed our kids to upload their assignments to be corrected by teachers on the other end.  Therefore, even poorly educated parents have no problem helping their children exceed the performance of their counterparts in government schools.
Click to expand...


That's interesting, but I think it's important that the homeschoolers/parents have a good understanding of the subject matter being taught, and there is also the issue with time.  Many parents lack the time when they both work full time, although I imagine a "school day" isn't nearly as long as a public school day.


----------



## Samson

ChrisL said:


> hadit said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> House said:
> 
> 
> 
> The problem with home schooling is that the student is limited to the abilities of the parent(s) providing the instruction.
> 
> Not a bad deal at all if the parents are fairly intelligent, but consider... would you just pull any adult off the street and ask them to teach  *your* child, even if there was a fairy tale world where there was zero chance they would abuse that child?
> 
> I sure as hell wouldn't, people are idiots.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That simply is not the case.  There are many fine online curricula that parents can utilize to their children's benefit.  While my wife and I are both college educated, we used such a curriculum that allowed our kids to upload their assignments to be corrected by teachers on the other end.  Therefore, even poorly educated parents have no problem helping their children exceed the performance of their counterparts in government schools.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> That's interesting, but I think it's important that the homeschoolers/parents have a good understanding of the subject matter being taught, and there is also the issue with time.  Many parents lack the time when they both work full time, although I imagine a "school day" isn't nearly as long as a public school day.
Click to expand...

 
Nor does it need to be.

How much time, effort, and resources are wasted transporting students to and from school, feeding them lunch, and allowing them time to change classes?


----------



## ChrisL

Samson said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> hadit said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> House said:
> 
> 
> 
> The problem with home schooling is that the student is limited to the abilities of the parent(s) providing the instruction.
> 
> Not a bad deal at all if the parents are fairly intelligent, but consider... would you just pull any adult off the street and ask them to teach  *your* child, even if there was a fairy tale world where there was zero chance they would abuse that child?
> 
> I sure as hell wouldn't, people are idiots.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That simply is not the case.  There are many fine online curricula that parents can utilize to their children's benefit.  While my wife and I are both college educated, we used such a curriculum that allowed our kids to upload their assignments to be corrected by teachers on the other end.  Therefore, even poorly educated parents have no problem helping their children exceed the performance of their counterparts in government schools.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> That's interesting, but I think it's important that the homeschoolers/parents have a good understanding of the subject matter being taught, and there is also the issue with time.  Many parents lack the time when they both work full time, although I imagine a "school day" isn't nearly as long as a public school day.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Nor does it need to be.
> 
> How much time, effort, and resources are wasted transporting students to and from school, feeding them lunch, and allowing them time to change classes?
Click to expand...


That's what I meant.  Not to mention, you aren't going to have as many students who have questions and need help.


----------



## Samson

ChrisL said:


> Samson said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> hadit said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> House said:
> 
> 
> 
> The problem with home schooling is that the student is limited to the abilities of the parent(s) providing the instruction.
> 
> Not a bad deal at all if the parents are fairly intelligent, but consider... would you just pull any adult off the street and ask them to teach  *your* child, even if there was a fairy tale world where there was zero chance they would abuse that child?
> 
> I sure as hell wouldn't, people are idiots.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That simply is not the case.  There are many fine online curricula that parents can utilize to their children's benefit.  While my wife and I are both college educated, we used such a curriculum that allowed our kids to upload their assignments to be corrected by teachers on the other end.  Therefore, even poorly educated parents have no problem helping their children exceed the performance of their counterparts in government schools.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> That's interesting, but I think it's important that the homeschoolers/parents have a good understanding of the subject matter being taught, and there is also the issue with time.  Many parents lack the time when they both work full time, although I imagine a "school day" isn't nearly as long as a public school day.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Nor does it need to be.
> 
> How much time, effort, and resources are wasted transporting students to and from school, feeding them lunch, and allowing them time to change classes?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> That's what I meant.  Not to mention, you aren't going to have as many students who have questions and need help.
Click to expand...


I'm guessing something like 2-3 hours every school day is spent doing something other than instructional activities, and I'm not even counting classes where they're showing some movie that has some remote connection to the curriculum.

Homeschoolers also do not need to awake before dawn to have breakfast and catch a bus: sleep schedules which are naturally longer for adolescents are not disrupted.


----------



## Rikurzhen

Rikurzhen said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sciarra, whose organization serves as a legal watchdog for the Abbott districts, said the gap in state math test scores between fourth graders in Abbott districts and non-Abbott districts narrowed from 31 points in 1999 to 19 points in 2007, and on state reading tests from 22 points in 2001 to 15 points in 2007. Success in eighth grade was more modest, narrowing from 30 points in 2000 for math in 2000 to 26 points in 2007, and staying at 20 points for reading during the same years. The achievement gap has not narrowed in high schools, but New Jersey has the highest high school graduation rates in the nation for African American males, Sciarra said.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I won't get into the biology of what is happening but I can explain it by appealing to parenting. Any parent can tell you that they have more control over the minutia of their 3 year old child's life than they do over the minutia of their 16 year old child's life. The same dynamic works in schools. With young kids, we adults can SWAMP their environment but as kids get older they begin to exert THEMSELVES and resist having their environments controlled by adults. A kindergarten teacher can tell her kids to take a nap and the kids will comply, but a 12th grade teacher has nothing close to that level of control over students.
> 
> As we all get older we come into ourselves, we're no longer the little puppets we were when we were kids. So those gains we see in the 4th grade DON'T STICK. They diminish by the 8th grade and they're totally absent by the 12th grade. The student is no better prepared for college than their counterpart in a school that didn't have the intervention program.
> 
> This is first year genetics material but education professionals are totally damn clueless about biology and genetics.
Click to expand...


I just thought of an example which can illustrate this process - drinking behavior. Watch as heritability increases with age, just like with intelligence. Notice the different outcomes with adopted kids:

Parent–Offspring Similarity for Drinking: A Longitudinal Adoption Study

Parent–offspring resemblance for drinking was investigated in a sample of 409 adopted and 208 non-adopted families participating in the Sibling Interaction and Behavior Study. Drinking data was available for 1,229 offspring, assessed longitudinally up to three times in the age range from 10 to 28 years. A single drinking index was computed from four items measuring quantity, frequency and density of drinking. As expected, the mean drinking index increased with age, was greater in males as compared to females (although not at the younger ages), but did not vary significantly by adoption status.* Parent–offspring correlation in drinking did not vary significantly by either offspring or parent gender but did differ significantly by adoption status*. In adopted families, the parent–offspring correlation was statistically significant at all ages* but decreased for the oldest age group (age 22–28).* In non-adopted families, the parent–offspring correlation was statistically significant at all ages and* increased in the oldest age group.* Findings imply that *genetic influences on drinking behavior increase with age while shared family environment influences decline, especially during the transition from late-adolescence to early adulthood.*​This is what education professionals seem to be ignorant of, perhaps because they invest so heavily in the notion that what they do has so much influence on children.. These parents exhibited drinking behaviors and raised their kids to standards* different from their own behavior,* but as the adopted children grew into adulthood they actually became less like their parents while the natural children grew more like their parents. The same process at work in schools, as we get older it becomes very difficult for schools to shape us, for our own inclinations have more powerful influence on our choices and outcomes.

This explains why early successes get washed away as the kids mature. We always need to look at programs in the latter years of high school, not at programs taking place in elementary school.


----------



## Politico

Unkotare said:


> Samson said:
> 
> 
> 
> Its clear why you washed out of military service but continue to wannabe.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ??????????????????
> 
> What the hell are you talking about, dimwit?
Click to expand...

I agree. There is no way you would have ever manned up and put on a uniform.


----------



## ChrisL

Rikurzhen said:


> Rikurzhen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sciarra, whose organization serves as a legal watchdog for the Abbott districts, said the gap in state math test scores between fourth graders in Abbott districts and non-Abbott districts narrowed from 31 points in 1999 to 19 points in 2007, and on state reading tests from 22 points in 2001 to 15 points in 2007. Success in eighth grade was more modest, narrowing from 30 points in 2000 for math in 2000 to 26 points in 2007, and staying at 20 points for reading during the same years. The achievement gap has not narrowed in high schools, but New Jersey has the highest high school graduation rates in the nation for African American males, Sciarra said.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I won't get into the biology of what is happening but I can explain it by appealing to parenting. Any parent can tell you that they have more control over the minutia of their 3 year old child's life than they do over the minutia of their 16 year old child's life. The same dynamic works in schools. With young kids, we adults can SWAMP their environment but as kids get older they begin to exert THEMSELVES and resist having their environments controlled by adults. A kindergarten teacher can tell her kids to take a nap and the kids will comply, but a 12th grade teacher has nothing close to that level of control over students.
> 
> As we all get older we come into ourselves, we're no longer the little puppets we were when we were kids. So those gains we see in the 4th grade DON'T STICK. They diminish by the 8th grade and they're totally absent by the 12th grade. The student is no better prepared for college than their counterpart in a school that didn't have the intervention program.
> 
> This is first year genetics material but education professionals are totally damn clueless about biology and genetics.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I just thought of an example which can illustrate this process - drinking behavior. Watch as heritability increases with age, just like with intelligence. Notice the different outcomes with adopted kids:
> 
> Parent–Offspring Similarity for Drinking: A Longitudinal Adoption Study
> 
> Parent–offspring resemblance for drinking was investigated in a sample of 409 adopted and 208 non-adopted families participating in the Sibling Interaction and Behavior Study. Drinking data was available for 1,229 offspring, assessed longitudinally up to three times in the age range from 10 to 28 years. A single drinking index was computed from four items measuring quantity, frequency and density of drinking. As expected, the mean drinking index increased with age, was greater in males as compared to females (although not at the younger ages), but did not vary significantly by adoption status.* Parent–offspring correlation in drinking did not vary significantly by either offspring or parent gender but did differ significantly by adoption status*. In adopted families, the parent–offspring correlation was statistically significant at all ages* but decreased for the oldest age group (age 22–28).* In non-adopted families, the parent–offspring correlation was statistically significant at all ages and* increased in the oldest age group.* Findings imply that *genetic influences on drinking behavior increase with age while shared family environment influences decline, especially during the transition from late-adolescence to early adulthood.*​This is what education professionals seem to be ignorant of, perhaps because they invest so heavily in the notion that what they do has so much influence on children.. These parents exhibited drinking behaviors and raised their kids to standards* different from their own behavior,* but as the adopted children grew into adulthood they actually became less like their parents while the natural children grew more like their parents. The same process at work in schools, as we get older it becomes very difficult for schools to shape us, for our own inclinations have more powerful influence on our choices and outcomes.
> 
> This explains why early successes get washed away as the kids mature. We always need to look at programs in the latter years of high school, not at programs taking place in elementary school.
Click to expand...


Interesting, but it doesn't really matter.  Public school is what it is.  Of course it isn't going to be perfect for everyone's specific needs and cannot be tailored to fit every single individual.  However, it is still very necessary and is the best system we have for the time being.  

You must also keep in mind that not all parents are good parents, or maybe they are fine parents but just uneducated people,and then there are time constraints.  Therefore, homeschooling is not always going to be an option for many people.


----------



## Samson

ChrisL said:


> You must also keep in mind that not all parents are good parents, or maybe they are fine parents but just uneducated people,and then there are time constraints.  Therefore, homeschooling is not always going to be an option for many people.



No homeschooling IS an option for Everyone, and it should be. Just because it is not the Best Option for Everyone, doesn't make it bad. Regardless this is the major argument that opponents have given against homeschooling.


----------



## Unkotare

Politico said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Samson said:
> 
> 
> 
> Its clear why you washed out of military service but continue to wannabe.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ??????????????????
> 
> What the hell are you talking about, dimwit?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I agree. There is no way you would have ever manned up and put on a uniform.
Click to expand...



I can't claim that I ever did. All the more reason I respect those better men and women who have.


----------



## ChrisL

Samson said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> You must also keep in mind that not all parents are good parents, or maybe they are fine parents but just uneducated people,and then there are time constraints.  Therefore, homeschooling is not always going to be an option for many people.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No homeschooling IS an option for Everyone, and it should be. Just because it is not the Best Option for Everyone, doesn't make it bad. Regardless this is the major argument that opponents have given against homeschooling.
Click to expand...


It is not a viable option for everyone.  That is ridiculous.


----------



## Samson

ChrisL said:


> Samson said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> You must also keep in mind that not all parents are good parents, or maybe they are fine parents but just uneducated people,and then there are time constraints.  Therefore, homeschooling is not always going to be an option for many people.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No homeschooling IS an option for Everyone, and it should be. Just because it is not the Best Option for Everyone, doesn't make it bad. Regardless this is the major argument that opponents have given against homeschooling.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> It is not a viable option for everyone.  That is ridiculous.
Click to expand...


"Viable?"

Did I say "Viable?"

No. But it is An Option, and should remain a LEGAL option for Everyone


----------



## ChrisL

Samson said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Samson said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> You must also keep in mind that not all parents are good parents, or maybe they are fine parents but just uneducated people,and then there are time constraints.  Therefore, homeschooling is not always going to be an option for many people.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No homeschooling IS an option for Everyone, and it should be. Just because it is not the Best Option for Everyone, doesn't make it bad. Regardless this is the major argument that opponents have given against homeschooling.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> It is not a viable option for everyone.  That is ridiculous.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> "Viable?"
> 
> Did I say "Viable?"
> 
> No. But it is An Option, and should remain a LEGAL option for Everyone
Click to expand...


I agree.  Everyone should have the choice.


----------



## hadit

Samson said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Samson said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> hadit said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> House said:
> 
> 
> 
> The problem with home schooling is that the student is limited to the abilities of the parent(s) providing the instruction.
> 
> Not a bad deal at all if the parents are fairly intelligent, but consider... would you just pull any adult off the street and ask them to teach  *your* child, even if there was a fairy tale world where there was zero chance they would abuse that child?
> 
> I sure as hell wouldn't, people are idiots.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That simply is not the case.  There are many fine online curricula that parents can utilize to their children's benefit.  While my wife and I are both college educated, we used such a curriculum that allowed our kids to upload their assignments to be corrected by teachers on the other end.  Therefore, even poorly educated parents have no problem helping their children exceed the performance of their counterparts in government schools.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> That's interesting, but I think it's important that the homeschoolers/parents have a good understanding of the subject matter being taught, and there is also the issue with time.  Many parents lack the time when they both work full time, although I imagine a "school day" isn't nearly as long as a public school day.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Nor does it need to be.
> 
> How much time, effort, and resources are wasted transporting students to and from school, feeding them lunch, and allowing them time to change classes?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> That's what I meant.  Not to mention, you aren't going to have as many students who have questions and need help.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I'm guessing something like 2-3 hours every school day is spent doing something other than instructional activities, and I'm not even counting classes where they're showing some movie that has some remote connection to the curriculum.
> 
> Homeschoolers also do not need to awake before dawn to have breakfast and catch a bus: sleep schedules which are naturally longer for adolescents are not disrupted.
Click to expand...


That is correct.  A home schooled child's actual time in class usually ranges from 2-4 hours.  There really is a lot of non-class time in the typical school day.


----------



## hadit

House said:


> Samson said:
> 
> 
> 
> (their parents likely began home schooling while they were in the womb).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Recess must be a bitch.
Click to expand...


How so, when the kids get to play with other kids in the co-op?


----------



## hadit

ChrisL said:


> hadit said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> House said:
> 
> 
> 
> The problem with home schooling is that the student is limited to the abilities of the parent(s) providing the instruction.
> 
> Not a bad deal at all if the parents are fairly intelligent, but consider... would you just pull any adult off the street and ask them to teach  *your* child, even if there was a fairy tale world where there was zero chance they would abuse that child?
> 
> I sure as hell wouldn't, people are idiots.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That simply is not the case.  There are many fine online curricula that parents can utilize to their children's benefit.  While my wife and I are both college educated, we used such a curriculum that allowed our kids to upload their assignments to be corrected by teachers on the other end.  Therefore, even poorly educated parents have no problem helping their children exceed the performance of their counterparts in government schools.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> That's interesting, but I think it's important that the homeschoolers/parents have a good understanding of the subject matter being taught, and there is also the issue with time.  Many parents lack the time when they both work full time, although I imagine a "school day" isn't nearly as long as a public school day.
Click to expand...


I agree that the home schooling parents should have a good understanding of the subject matter, and in fact our district requires that one or both have a college degree, unless you specifically state you are home schooling for religious purposes.  In our case, we used an online curriculum that had certified teachers who graded our kids' work and provided feedback.


----------



## R.D.

Unkotare said:


> R.D. said:
> 
> 
> 
> Why not?  .
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How about it's none of your fucking business?
> 
> Lots of people are bad cooks. Does that mean that some presumptuous douche like you can tell them they aren't "allowed" to cook for their own families? Lots of people might be 'bad' parents according to some presumptuous douche like you. Does that mean they shouldn't be "allowed" to have children at all? Who the fuck are you again?
Click to expand...

It's a discussion.

You sound like the shit for brains people I'm talking about on the other side if the debate


----------



## gallantwarrior

ChrisL said:


> Rikurzhen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> gallantwarrior said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think some kids would definitely benefit and learn more efficiently in a home environment, but that certainly isn't the case for all kids.  Plenty of them do just fine in the public school environment.  Of course, the quality of your public school system depends on where you live and how much funding your schools are receiving.
> 
> Now, here is where the conservatives get a little cranky.  Lol.  I would like to see all the funds allocated towards schools pooled together and distributed equally amongst the schools so that all the children are getting equal quality of education from their public school systems.
> 
> 
> 
> Throwing more money at a system that is failing to do a basic job of _educating_ and way to much _indoctrinating_ is not the solution.  And the one-size-fits-all concept, like No Child Left Behind, is not a solution, either.  One thing that needs to be done is to reestablish the goals of basic education, then the current curricula should be vetted to ensure that each class offered clearly supports the stated educational goals. Many subjects addressed in public school systems should not be, but should be left for the parents to address.  We need to rip all the PC bullshit out of the public schools and concentrate on teaching children to read, write properly, to become competent in basic mathematics and scientific concepts.  After those basics have been established, then offer more variety to older children in the form of electives.  We need to stop using public schools as laboratories for social engineering experiments.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> -Throwing money at the problem doesn't fix the problem. You're correct.
> 
> -NCLB was a solution intended to fix the problem of the Achievement Gap. It would never work because it presumed that the Achievement Gap was caused by teaching methods and not by genetics.
> 
> -The goals of American education are to close the Achievement Gap. That's mission #1. Before liberals adopted this mission the old goal was "To raise each child to the highest level that their ability will permit." If we readopted the old mission then this wold explode the achievement gap wider than it is today.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> That's fine, I don't have a problem with that.  I still stand by my belief that money should be distributed equally among the schools.  Otherwise, we are just perpetuating more of the same results, and it's really the inner city poor schools that bring down the averages.  They get the least funding and are the worst learning environments with lack of basic needs and good teachers because they cannot afford to bring on good teachers.  You are going to get what you put into it.
Click to expand...


Alright, where will this money come from?  And would evenly distribute said funds to schools on a local level, or would you redistribute money collected for "education" nationally?  Would you limit equal distribution to only certain, approved schools, or would you consider including charter schools and trade schools?


----------



## gallantwarrior

House said:


> The problem with home schooling is that the student is limited to the abilities of the parent(s) providing the instruction.
> 
> Not a bad deal at all if the parents are fairly intelligent, but consider... would you just pull any adult off the street and ask them to teach  *your* child, even if there was a fairy tale world where there was zero chance they would abuse that child?
> 
> I sure as hell wouldn't, people are idiots.


I many instances where people homeschool, they form coalitions with other homeschooling parents and those who have talent or skill in one field, say, math, will teach several children in exchange for another parent with different skills teaching the children in that subject area.  In addition, a reputable provider for the homeschooler will have a well appointed support system for both students and parents.  Homeschooling does not necessarily mean that the parent is without resources, although some may be ignorant enough to forgo available resources and strike out on their own.


----------



## gallantwarrior

House said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> House said:
> 
> 
> 
> (To clarify for the slow witted: I'm neither implying nor assuming parents get random third-party individuals to teach their children, but if you wouldn't trust your child to their educational skills do you really think such people should be allowed to teach their own children? It is still a disservice to society either way.)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "Allowed"? "Allowed"? Are you serious?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> As a fucking heart attack. Do you not interact with society at all? There are some grade A dumbasses that I wouldn't trust to train a dog not to shit on the floor.
Click to expand...

Unfortunately, many so-called professional teachers fit nicely into you description.


----------



## House

gallantwarrior said:


> House said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> House said:
> 
> 
> 
> (To clarify for the slow witted: I'm neither implying nor assuming parents get random third-party individuals to teach their children, but if you wouldn't trust your child to their educational skills do you really think such people should be allowed to teach their own children? It is still a disservice to society either way.)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "Allowed"? "Allowed"? Are you serious?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> As a fucking heart attack. Do you not interact with society at all? There are some grade A dumbasses that I wouldn't trust to train a dog not to shit on the floor.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Unfortunately, many so-called professional teachers fit nicely into you description.
Click to expand...


Yes, but it's a lot easier to take a teacher out of a classroom than it is to rescue a child from idiot parents. Especially if those idiot parents are how schooling their child(ren), minimizing their exposure to society.


----------



## House

Samson said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Samson said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Samson said:
> 
> 
> 
> Someone is failing to make their post relevant.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Don't beat yourself up about it, just try harder from now on.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I meant you, short-bus.
> 
> You need to find a simpler thread to follow.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You failed to recognize that you were describing yourself, square wheels.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Rapier wit: "I know you are but what am I."
> 
> 
> 
> Its clear why you washed out of military service but continue to wannabe.
> 
> Pitiful, but still amusing.
Click to expand...


That's called "The PeeWee Defense".


----------



## Tresha91203

House said:


> gallantwarrior said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> House said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> House said:
> 
> 
> 
> (To clarify for the slow witted: I'm neither implying nor assuming parents get random third-party individuals to teach their children, but if you wouldn't trust your child to their educational skills do you really think such people should be allowed to teach their own children? It is still a disservice to society either way.)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "Allowed"? "Allowed"? Are you serious?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> As a fucking heart attack. Do you not interact with society at all? There are some grade A dumbasses that I wouldn't trust to train a dog not to shit on the floor.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Unfortunately, many so-called professional teachers fit nicely into you description.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yes, but it's a lot easier to take a teacher out of a classroom than it is to rescue a child from idiot parents. Especially if those idiot parents are how schooling their child(ren), minimizing their exposure to society.
Click to expand...


According to the stats, though, that isn't happening in any statistically meaningful amount. No more so than bad teachers apparently.


----------



## House

Tresha91203 said:


> House said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> gallantwarrior said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> House said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> House said:
> 
> 
> 
> (To clarify for the slow witted: I'm neither implying nor assuming parents get random third-party individuals to teach their children, but if you wouldn't trust your child to their educational skills do you really think such people should be allowed to teach their own children? It is still a disservice to society either way.)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "Allowed"? "Allowed"? Are you serious?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> As a fucking heart attack. Do you not interact with society at all? There are some grade A dumbasses that I wouldn't trust to train a dog not to shit on the floor.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Unfortunately, many so-called professional teachers fit nicely into you description.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yes, but it's a lot easier to take a teacher out of a classroom than it is to rescue a child from idiot parents. Especially if those idiot parents are how schooling their child(ren), minimizing their exposure to society.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> According to the stats, though, that isn't happening in any statistically meaningful amount. No more so than bad teachers apparently.
Click to expand...


Kinda hard to have  stats on stupidity, brain child.


----------



## Politico

Unkotare said:


> Politico said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Samson said:
> 
> 
> 
> Its clear why you washed out of military service but continue to wannabe.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ??????????????????
> 
> What the hell are you talking about, dimwit?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I agree. There is no way you would have ever manned up and put on a uniform.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I can't claim that I ever did. All the more reason I respect those better men and women who have.
Click to expand...

Sorry. You can't claim to support the troops who fight to protect the 2nd Amendment that you despise. When you stop hating on the Constitution and make 50 posts supporting the right to bear arms I will be glad to revisit this post. Not only that I will do something your troll ass would never have the balls to do. I will post my name, address and phone number on the forum for all to see.


----------



## Unkotare

Politico said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Politico said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Samson said:
> 
> 
> 
> Its clear why you washed out of military service but continue to wannabe.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ??????????????????
> 
> What the hell are you talking about, dimwit?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I agree. There is no way you would have ever manned up and put on a uniform.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I can't claim that I ever did. All the more reason I respect those better men and women who have.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Sorry. You can't claim to support the troops who fight to protect the 2nd Amendment that you despise.
Click to expand...



I have never posted anything remotely suggesting that am anything but supportive of our 2nd Amendment rights, you dickless, lying sack of watery shit.


----------



## Unkotare

Politico said:


> When you stop hating on the Constitution....




Back to troll school with you, boy.


----------



## House

Which came first, guns in schools or guns in school threads?


----------



## Abishai100

*Parallax View*

Homeschooling has a social stigma attached to it in some ways, since people equate simplified education to under-resourced philosophy.

However, if we look at the education philosophy/approach of the highly-esteemed higher-education maths-sciences centric American university M.I.T., we find a profitable and prestigious linking of strip-down training method with populism coordination.

There's no reason we need to liken homeschooling with 'primitive education' or 'Amish-like over-indulgence in simplification processes.'

After all, aren't eco-activists referencing the pop comic book avatar Poison Ivy (DC Comics), a radical female scientist-turned-ecoterrorist, in libertine discussions about pragmatism?







Massachusetts Institute of Technology - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia


----------



## CowboyTed

Mad Scientist said:


> Thanks PC! That graph shows that the average stay at home Mom or Dad is a better Teacher than the average Public School Teacher can EVER be.


*Home School Legal Defense Association has a report that homschooling is good from*
Ian Slatter 
Director of Media Relations.

HSLDA commissioned Dr. Brian Ray, an internationally recognized scholar and president of the non-profit National Home Education Research Institute (NHERI), to collect data for the 2007–08 academic year for a new study which would build upon 25 years of homeschool academic scholarship conducted by Ray himself, Rudner, and many others.
*
. I home they teach there kids to be more objective.*


----------



## Edmond

I agree with allowing people the choice to home school their children. What concerns me is the lack the social interaction. Some parents are going to be good at doing this, and others not so much. It is not easy, and not everyone will have success at homeschooling their children. A lot of those parents end up sending their kids to public schools anyways.


----------



## Abishai100

*Audiobooks: Training Day*

I think a major reason that people are talking about homeschooling in our modern age of sophisticated networking (i.e., eTrade) is that resources are so readily available to the layman.



The subsidiary of Amazon.com, Audible.com, for example, offers consumers ready-made audiobook versions of all kinds of written works such as the populism-centric "Charlotte's Web" (E.B. White) and the culture-meditative "The Man in the Iron Mask" (Alexandre Dumas).

If consumerism-friendly companies continue to offer user-friendly training-based products such as the eReader, then homeschooling will continue to look chic.






Audible.com - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia


----------



## M.D. Rawlings

rightwinger said:


> Home schooling is a great option for many parents. You get to control all the information your children are subjected to and they don't have to go to school with negroes or poor people



You mean to tell me there are parents out there directly controlling the actual content of their children's spiritual and intellectual development? 

And this is happening in America?  Right now?

Goodness gracious!

These uppity ******* need to be lynched.


----------



## M.D. Rawlings

Edmond said:


> I agree with allowing people the choice to home school their children. What concerns me is the lack the social interaction. Some parents are going to be good at doing this, and others not so much. It is not easy, and not everyone will have success at homeschooling their children. A lot of those parents end up sending their kids to public schools anyways.



_Allowing_ parents the choice?! 

Lack of social interaction? 

Hmm.


----------



## hadit

Edmond said:


> I agree with allowing people the choice to home school their children. What concerns me is the lack the social interaction. Some parents are going to be good at doing this, and others not so much. It is not easy, and not everyone will have success at homeschooling their children. A lot of those parents end up sending their kids to public schools anyways.



I would suggest you familiarize yourself with the truth, not the myth, of home-schooling.  The truth is that home-schooled kids are better adjusted, score better on standardized tests, and are in general better educated than their government schooled counterparts.  They have the same opportunities as other kids, playing in sports leagues, attending social events with their peers, etc.  Their advantage is an engaged parent willing to provide the kind of one-on-one teaching the government school simply can't provide.


----------



## hadit

M.D. Rawlings said:


> Edmond said:
> 
> 
> 
> I agree with allowing people the choice to home school their children. What concerns me is the lack the social interaction. Some parents are going to be good at doing this, and others not so much. It is not easy, and not everyone will have success at homeschooling their children. A lot of those parents end up sending their kids to public schools anyways.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _Allowing_ parents the choice?!
> 
> Lack of social interaction?
> 
> Hmm.
Click to expand...


I'm sure Abraham Lincoln would have been perplexed at the idea that a person could not get a decent education at home.


----------



## M.D. Rawlings

ChrisL said:


> Rikurzhen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> Now, here is where the conservatives get a little cranky.  Lol. * I would like to see all the funds allocated towards schools pooled together* and distributed equally amongst the schools so that all the children are getting equal quality of education from their public school systems.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> People vote with their pocketbooks, they move to expensive homes where nearby schools are well funded by choice so that their kids get the benefit.
> 
> If you want to implement your plan then you need to de-link school funding from property taxes because people are willing to pay higher taxes in return for benefits which accrue to them or to their neighborhood, not to people clear across the state.
> 
> The best way forward is to have the state grant each school-age student a grant and then the student attends the school of his choice and the student turns over the grant money to the school. For parents who want their kids to have a more elaborate education, the schools can charge a supplementary tuition.
> 
> No parent is EVER going to sacrifice his child's education so that some other kid can possibly derive some benefit. Most of what drives high real estate prices is the quest for good schools. Junk the school and you crash property values.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Good schools are not the only advantage to paying higher property taxes.  That is a cop out, and at the cost of our society being well educated and well functioning, which in turn only makes us as a country stronger.  I would be willing to bet that this is part of the reason why some other countries outperform us when it comes to academics.
Click to expand...



You live in a dream world.  Rikurzhen directly refuted your delusional slogan speak, but it just flew right over your head.

We homeschooled our children.

Regarding the motives of those who homeschool their children, Rightwinger does get one thing right.  Most homeschoolers are conservatives, and right at the very tippy top of their lists for the reasons they homeschool reads*:*  "Let us protect our children's hearts and minds from  the rank stupidity of  leftist think running amuck in the government schools of collectivistic duh."


----------



## M.D. Rawlings

hadit said:


> M.D. Rawlings said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Edmond said:
> 
> 
> 
> I agree with allowing people the choice to home school their children. What concerns me is the lack the social interaction. Some parents are going to be good at doing this, and others not so much. It is not easy, and not everyone will have success at homeschooling their children. A lot of those parents end up sending their kids to public schools anyways.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _Allowing_ parents the choice?!
> 
> Lack of social interaction?
> 
> Hmm.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I'm sure Abraham Lincoln would have been perplexed at the idea that a person could not get a decent education at home.
Click to expand...



Americans of past generations would be amazed by a good many things leftists think nowadays.


----------



## ChrisL

M.D. Rawlings said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Rikurzhen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> Now, here is where the conservatives get a little cranky.  Lol. * I would like to see all the funds allocated towards schools pooled together* and distributed equally amongst the schools so that all the children are getting equal quality of education from their public school systems.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> People vote with their pocketbooks, they move to expensive homes where nearby schools are well funded by choice so that their kids get the benefit.
> 
> If you want to implement your plan then you need to de-link school funding from property taxes because people are willing to pay higher taxes in return for benefits which accrue to them or to their neighborhood, not to people clear across the state.
> 
> The best way forward is to have the state grant each school-age student a grant and then the student attends the school of his choice and the student turns over the grant money to the school. For parents who want their kids to have a more elaborate education, the schools can charge a supplementary tuition.
> 
> No parent is EVER going to sacrifice his child's education so that some other kid can possibly derive some benefit. Most of what drives high real estate prices is the quest for good schools. Junk the school and you crash property values.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Good schools are not the only advantage to paying higher property taxes.  That is a cop out, and at the cost of our society being well educated and well functioning, which in turn only makes us as a country stronger.  I would be willing to bet that this is part of the reason why some other countries outperform us when it comes to academics.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> You live in a dream world.  Rikurzhen directly refuted your delusional slogan speak, but it just flew right over your head.
> 
> We homeschooled our children.
> 
> Regarding the motives of those who homeschool their children, Rightwinger does get one thing right.  Most homeschoolers are conservatives, and right at the very tippy top of their lists for the reasons they homeschool reads*:*  "Let us protect our children's hearts and minds from  the rank stupidity of  leftist think running amuck in the government schools of collectivistic duh."
Click to expand...


If funding was equally doled out, then that wouldn't be an issue.  I am not wrong either, there are other reasons to live in an area besides the public school system.  Where do those of you who home school your children live?  In the slum?


----------



## gipper

ChrisL said:


> M.D. Rawlings said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Rikurzhen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> Now, here is where the conservatives get a little cranky.  Lol. * I would like to see all the funds allocated towards schools pooled together* and distributed equally amongst the schools so that all the children are getting equal quality of education from their public school systems.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> People vote with their pocketbooks, they move to expensive homes where nearby schools are well funded by choice so that their kids get the benefit.
> 
> If you want to implement your plan then you need to de-link school funding from property taxes because people are willing to pay higher taxes in return for benefits which accrue to them or to their neighborhood, not to people clear across the state.
> 
> The best way forward is to have the state grant each school-age student a grant and then the student attends the school of his choice and the student turns over the grant money to the school. For parents who want their kids to have a more elaborate education, the schools can charge a supplementary tuition.
> 
> No parent is EVER going to sacrifice his child's education so that some other kid can possibly derive some benefit. Most of what drives high real estate prices is the quest for good schools. Junk the school and you crash property values.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Good schools are not the only advantage to paying higher property taxes.  That is a cop out, and at the cost of our society being well educated and well functioning, which in turn only makes us as a country stronger.  I would be willing to bet that this is part of the reason why some other countries outperform us when it comes to academics.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> You live in a dream world.  Rikurzhen directly refuted your delusional slogan speak, but it just flew right over your head.
> 
> We homeschooled our children.
> 
> Regarding the motives of those who homeschool their children, Rightwinger does get one thing right.  Most homeschoolers are conservatives, and right at the very tippy top of their lists for the reasons they homeschool reads*:*  "Let us protect our children's hearts and minds from  the rank stupidity of  leftist think running amuck in the government schools of collectivistic duh."
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> If funding was equally doled out, then that wouldn't be an issue.  I am not wrong either, there are other reasons to live in an area besides the public school system.  Where do those of you who home school your children live?  In the slum?
Click to expand...


Funding has little to do with the quality of education children receive in government schools.  For example, Wash DC has the highest funding per pupil in the nation, but offers little education...This is why rich liberals (like the Clintons and Obamas) who refuse to allow school choice and demand the poor send their kids to the local p-school, while they send their kids to expensive private schools.  HYPOCRITES!!! 

*The great Walter Williams outlines here:
For example, in 2012, Washington, D.C., public schools led the nation in spending per pupil, at $29,409.

In terms of academic performance, the nation’s report card shows that over 80 percent of D.C.’s predominantly black eighth-graders scored either “basic” or “below basic” in reading and math.*
Walter E. Williams Meet basic needs to improve education Denton Record Chronicle News for Denton County Texas

The elite left knows keeping the poor ignorant and propagandized guarantees they vote D.


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## ChrisL

gipper said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> M.D. Rawlings said:
> 
> 
> 
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> 
> ChrisL said:
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> 
> 
> 
> 
> Rikurzhen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> Now, here is where the conservatives get a little cranky.  Lol. * I would like to see all the funds allocated towards schools pooled together* and distributed equally amongst the schools so that all the children are getting equal quality of education from their public school systems.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> People vote with their pocketbooks, they move to expensive homes where nearby schools are well funded by choice so that their kids get the benefit.
> 
> If you want to implement your plan then you need to de-link school funding from property taxes because people are willing to pay higher taxes in return for benefits which accrue to them or to their neighborhood, not to people clear across the state.
> 
> The best way forward is to have the state grant each school-age student a grant and then the student attends the school of his choice and the student turns over the grant money to the school. For parents who want their kids to have a more elaborate education, the schools can charge a supplementary tuition.
> 
> No parent is EVER going to sacrifice his child's education so that some other kid can possibly derive some benefit. Most of what drives high real estate prices is the quest for good schools. Junk the school and you crash property values.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Good schools are not the only advantage to paying higher property taxes.  That is a cop out, and at the cost of our society being well educated and well functioning, which in turn only makes us as a country stronger.  I would be willing to bet that this is part of the reason why some other countries outperform us when it comes to academics.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> You live in a dream world.  Rikurzhen directly refuted your delusional slogan speak, but it just flew right over your head.
> 
> We homeschooled our children.
> 
> Regarding the motives of those who homeschool their children, Rightwinger does get one thing right.  Most homeschoolers are conservatives, and right at the very tippy top of their lists for the reasons they homeschool reads*:*  "Let us protect our children's hearts and minds from  the rank stupidity of  leftist think running amuck in the government schools of collectivistic duh."
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> If funding was equally doled out, then that wouldn't be an issue.  I am not wrong either, there are other reasons to live in an area besides the public school system.  Where do those of you who home school your children live?  In the slum?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Funding has little to do with the quality of education children receive in government schools.  For example, Wash DC has the highest funding per pupil in the nation, but offers little education...This is why rich liberals (like the Clintons and Obamas) who refuse to allow school choice and demand the poor send their kids to the local p-school, while they send their kids to expensive private schools.  HYPOCRITES!!!
> 
> *The great Walter Williams outlines here:
> For example, in 2012, Washington, D.C., public schools led the nation in spending per pupil, at $29,409.
> 
> In terms of academic performance, the nation’s report card shows that over 80 percent of D.C.’s predominantly black eighth-graders scored either “basic” or “below basic” in reading and math.*
> Walter E. Williams Meet basic needs to improve education Denton Record Chronicle News for Denton County Texas
> 
> The elite left knows keeping the poor ignorant and propagandized guarantees they vote D.
Click to expand...


I'm not denying that you just can't help some people, but I believe that if the schools had equal funding, that would increase our output of quality citizens even if they still can't ace a math exam.  I don't know why some of you are so much against caring for and funding for our future.


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## ChrisL

You know, like it or not, these kids and people are part of our society.  They are not going to go away.


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## gipper

ChrisL said:


> You know, like it or not, these kids and people are part of our society.  They are not going to go away.



Again...it is not the level of funding that influences academic achievement.  You clearly are refusing to understand the problem and think equal funding will fix it, when it will not.  Then you resort to a veiled racist comment...a common leftist tactic.


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## ChrisL

gipper said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> You know, like it or not, these kids and people are part of our society.  They are not going to go away.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Again...it is not the level of funding that influences academic achievement.  You clearly are refusing to understand the problem and think equal funding will fix it, when it will not.  Then you resort to a veiled racist comment...a common leftist tactic.
Click to expand...


Nothing I said was "veiled" or "racist."  That is what I think.  You are entitled to disagree, but not to accuse me of making "racist" comments.  THAT is a typical leftist tactic.

Soooo, what do you suggest we do to fix this little problem?


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## gipper

ChrisL said:


> You know, like it or not, these kids and people are part of our society.  They are not going to go away.



Okay.   

Do you really think some Americans believe poor children are NOT part of society?  Do you really think anyone believes they will go away?

Please explain this post.


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## ChrisL

gipper said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> You know, like it or not, these kids and people are part of our society.  They are not going to go away.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Okay.
> 
> Do you really think some Americans believe poor children are NOT part of society?  Do you really think anyone believes they will go away?
> 
> Please explain this post.
Click to expand...


Point being, what do you suggest we do about it?  Ignore the problem and it will go away?  I've yet to see you make any kind of suggestions at all.  You seem to just be satisfied with the status quo.


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## ChrisL

^^^

I should say any kind of "realistic" suggestions.


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## ChrisL

I say, we get rid of teachers' unions (which do more harm than good, IMO) too.  They certainly aren't designed to help the kids in any way.  I do think that some unions are still necessary (like in the construction industry), but I never understood this dire need for a teachers' union.


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## gipper

ChrisL said:


> gipper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> You know, like it or not, these kids and people are part of our society.  They are not going to go away.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Okay.
> 
> Do you really think some Americans believe poor children are NOT part of society?  Do you really think anyone believes they will go away?
> 
> Please explain this post.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Point being, what do you suggest we do about it?  Ignore the problem and it will go away?  I've yet to see you make any kind of suggestions at all.  You seem to just be satisfied with the status quo.
Click to expand...


You posted a strawman argument. No one believe what you stated.

So...if one does not offer solutions, one must be satisfied with the status quo.  Another strawman argument.


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## M.D. Rawlings

ChrisL said:


> Point being, what do you suggest we do about it?  Ignore the problem and it will go away?  I've yet to see you make any kind of suggestions at all.  You seem to just be satisfied with the status quo.



Universal school choice!


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## ChrisL

M.D. Rawlings said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> Point being, what do you suggest we do about it?  Ignore the problem and it will go away?  I've yet to see you make any kind of suggestions at all.  You seem to just be satisfied with the status quo.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Universal school choice!
Click to expand...


What do you mean by this?    People get to choose which school they send their children too?


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## ChrisL

gipper said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> gipper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> You know, like it or not, these kids and people are part of our society.  They are not going to go away.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Okay.
> 
> Do you really think some Americans believe poor children are NOT part of society?  Do you really think anyone believes they will go away?
> 
> Please explain this post.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Point being, what do you suggest we do about it?  Ignore the problem and it will go away?  I've yet to see you make any kind of suggestions at all.  You seem to just be satisfied with the status quo.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You posted a strawman argument. No one believe what you stated.
> 
> So...if one does not offer solutions, one must be satisfied with the status quo.  Another strawman argument.
Click to expand...


No one believed what I stated about what?  Schools and how the ones that are underfunded are failing the students?  Okay, people can believe what they want, but that's only common sense.  Lol!


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## gipper

ChrisL said:


> gipper said:
> 
> 
> 
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> 
> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
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> gipper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
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> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> You know, like it or not, these kids and people are part of our society.  They are not going to go away.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Okay.
> 
> Do you really think some Americans believe poor children are NOT part of society?  Do you really think anyone believes they will go away?
> 
> Please explain this post.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Point being, what do you suggest we do about it?  Ignore the problem and it will go away?  I've yet to see you make any kind of suggestions at all.  You seem to just be satisfied with the status quo.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You posted a strawman argument. No one believe what you stated.
> 
> So...if one does not offer solutions, one must be satisfied with the status quo.  Another strawman argument.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No one believed what I stated about what?  Schools and how the ones that are underfunded are failing the students?  Okay, people can believe what they want, but that's only common sense.  Lol!
Click to expand...


You posted the following:
*You know, like it or not, these kids and people are part of our society.  They are not going to go away.*

Do you think some people think 'these kids and people' are NOT part of our society?  Who ever claimed that they were NOT part of society?  Do you have anything to support this statement?

And...did anyone ever claim they are 'going away?'


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## Conservative65

ogibillm said:


> PoliticalChic said:
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> ogibillm said:
> 
> 
> 
> idiots raising idiots. hooray.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You've just catapulted into the idiot category.
> 
> 
> "Drawing from 15 independent testing services, the _Progress Report 2009: Homeschool Academic Achievement and Demographics_ included 11,739 homeschooled students from all 50 states who took three well-known tests—_California Achievement Test_, _Iowa Tests of Basic Skills_, and _Stanford Achievement Test_ for the 2007–08 academic year. The _Progress Report_ is the most comprehensive homeschool academic study ever completed.
> 
> *The Results*
> 
> Overall the study showed *significant advances in homeschool academic achievement as well as revealing that issues such as student gender, parents’ education level, and family income had little bearing on the results of homeschooled students. *
> 
> 
> *National Average Percentile Scores**Subtest**Homeschool**Public School*Reading8950Language8450Math8450Science8650Social Studies8450Corea8850Compositeb8650a. Core is a combination of Reading, Language, and Math.
> b. Composite is a combination of all subtests that the student took on the test."
> HSLDA New Nationwide Study Confirms Homeschool Academic Achievement
> 
> 
> 
> You feel stoooooopid?
> [TBODY]
> [/TBODY]
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> do you understand what a percentile is?
> i have no doubt that home schooling works for some people, and that their children do well. although those parents with the time and resources to truly home school correctly would have the time and resources to make sure their children are doing well and receiving a good education if their children attended public schools.
> 
> my main concern is that not every parent is equipped to be a teacher. for instance, i took calculus classes in high school. my parents are smart people, with advanced degrees, but neither of them could teach me calculus. I could teach my child calculus, but I don't have sufficient skills in the language arts to teach them well.
> 
> and knowledge aside, if you're keeping your kids out of schools because you want to indoctrinate them and avoid exposing them to other ideas you're an idiot, no matter how well your child scores academically.
Click to expand...

 
 Yet you support the public schools that indoctrinate them.


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## ChrisL

gipper said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
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> gipper said:
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> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
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> gipper said:
> 
> 
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> 
> 
> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> You know, like it or not, these kids and people are part of our society.  They are not going to go away.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Okay.
> 
> Do you really think some Americans believe poor children are NOT part of society?  Do you really think anyone believes they will go away?
> 
> Please explain this post.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Point being, what do you suggest we do about it?  Ignore the problem and it will go away?  I've yet to see you make any kind of suggestions at all.  You seem to just be satisfied with the status quo.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You posted a strawman argument. No one believe what you stated.
> 
> So...if one does not offer solutions, one must be satisfied with the status quo.  Another strawman argument.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No one believed what I stated about what?  Schools and how the ones that are underfunded are failing the students?  Okay, people can believe what they want, but that's only common sense.  Lol!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You posted the following:
> *You know, like it or not, these kids and people are part of our society.  They are not going to go away.*
> 
> Do you think some people think 'these kids and people' are NOT part of our society?  Who ever claimed that they were NOT part of society?  Do you have anything to support this statement?
> 
> And...did anyone ever claim they are 'going away?'
Click to expand...


Well then, since you acknowledge them, now what do you suggest we do about it?  Just complain and shoot down any viable suggestions that might help some kids?


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## mgh80

ChrisL said:


> I say, we get rid of teachers' unions (which do more harm than good, IMO) too.  They certainly aren't designed to help the kids in any way.  I do think that some unions are still necessary (like in the construction industry), but I never understood this dire need for a teachers' union.



I don't think we need to get rid of the unions, I do think we need to clamp down on them though. I live in a right to work state and I am in the union (the only reason is because they provide up to $1million coverage for a lawyer in case I get sued). Unfortunately (as I'm sure many can imagine) some parents/students will find any reason to go after the teachers and/or school. Other than that there's no real benefit for me to be in the union.

I'm a highly effective teacher (we're evaluated through many ways and given ratings)...job security isn't necessary for me. And honestly there are some teachers who shouldn't be there. I know people who just sit on facebook/netflix during class and kick their feet up on the desk.

Protecting those teachers IS a problem. BUT giving teachers like myself (and others that do a good job) is also needed.

It's a catch 22....does the union do a lot of things I don't think they should? Yes. Does paying teachers more money, giving them higher benefits, and more incentives to become/stay teachers attract higher quality teachers? Yes.

There IS a steep learning curve to teaching. It is a VERY difficult job, it's so much more than just teaching as well. 99% of people can't start teaching and be awesome at it. It takes time, and for new teachers (imo you're a "new" teacher until your 5th year), we need to allow room for learning and growth. 

Like I said I think we need to change our priorities in teacher unions, but not necessarily get rid of them.

Honestly the biggest problem with the education system (at least from my experience) is from the government (state level) and not the union. I'm not suggesting that the union is without sin--believe me there are in some areas.

My point is that the unions are getting so much attention, but a lot of the focus is taken away from the politicians who haven't been in a K-12 classroom since they were 18 are calling all of the shots....and quite frankly they don't know WTF they're doing.


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