# Illegal Immigration - The next great national debate?



## Foxfyre (Apr 3, 2010)

If a number of pundits are right, the focus of the current Administration and Congress will now turn back to illegal immigration.   

What, if anything, should we do to stop people from entering the United States illegally?

What, if anything, should we do about those who are already here?

What, if anything, should be required of those who make it possible for illegals to be here?

What, if any, penalties or consequences should be imposed on those who:
a) come here illegally?
b) give comfort and/or emergency services to those who are here illegally?
c) give jobs to those who are here illegally?

Should people living in the United States illegally be provided the education benefits, health care, social security, workers compensation benefits, low income assistance, etc. that is available to U.S. citizens?

I'm hoping for some pertinent observations and concrete suggestions for how best to deal with this problem if you believe it is a problem. If you do not see a problem, please explain why you think none exists.


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## Sheldon (Apr 3, 2010)

> If a number of pundits are right, the focus of the current Administration and Congress will now turn back to illegal immigration.
> 
> What, if anything, should we do to stop people from entering the United States illegally?


I just posted this idea in another thread. The best long-term solution might be with stable growth of the Mexican economy. If there are expanding job opportunities in Mexico, there's no need to cross the border looking for jobs here. Ending subsidies might expand some industries' growth into Mexico. And there are other benefits to ending subsidies, but I won't go into that.

In general, I think most illegal immigrants don't come here to fuck around. They desperately want work so they can support the family. For every horror story about an illegal immigrant joining MS-13, there's probably ten times the number of stories about those who keep their head down, work in a back-breaking job just to send three-fourths of their earning home.

But they're still breaking the law. That has to be recognized.



> What, if anything, should we do about those who are already here?


Immediate deportation. No amnesty, because that's unfair to those who wait in line for months--even years--to come here with the appropriate paperwork.



> What, if anything, should be required of those who make it possible for illegals to be here?


Vote 'em out?



> What, if any, penalties or consequences should be imposed on those who:
> a) come here illegally?
> b) give comfort and/or emergency services to those who are here illegally?
> c) give jobs to those who are here illegally?


a) Immediate deportation
b) Depends on the offense. Are we talking a family member that harbors her son-in-law who just hopped the fence yesterday, or an underground operation that hauls dozens of illegal immigrants across the border every day?
c) First time offense: fine the business one-years salary of highest-paid worker for each illegal immigrant employed. Second time offense and thereafter: Strip any licensing associated with the business. Owner faces a personal fine of up to $50,000 (fyi: equal to violating the DMCA).



> Should people living in the United States illegally be provided the education benefits, health care, social security, workers compensation benefits, low income assistance, etc. that is available to U.S. citizens?


No. The only moral argument I can see would be about treating a medical emergency--i.e. a roofer shoot a nine-inch nail through his palm. But as far as any of the social programs listed, no.


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## Father Time (Apr 3, 2010)

Foxfyre said:


> If a number of pundits are right, the focus of the current Administration and Congress will now turn back to illegal immigration.
> 
> What, if anything, should we do to stop people from entering the United States illegally?



Well nothing we tried so far has worked, so nothing. What exactly is restricting immigration accomplishing anyway?



Foxfyre said:


> What, if anything, should we do about those who are already here?



Nothing, anything we will do would just be a temporary solution and way too costly.



Foxfyre said:


> What, if anything, should be required of those who make it possible for illegals to be here?



I'm not sure what you mean


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## Foxfyre (Apr 3, 2010)

Father Time said:


> Foxfyre said:
> 
> 
> > What, if anything, should be required of those who make it possible for illegals to be here?
> ...



I mean there are sanctuary states and sanctuary cities that practically invite the illegals to move in.  There are all kinds of social services who provide clothing, food, furniture, housing, and sometimes cash.  There is free education provided.  There is free healthcare provided.  There are those who are supposed to be enforcing the law who are looking the other way.  And there are the employers who hire illegals.  And there are those who help them come across the border and who hide them if that should be necessary.

All of these make it possible for illegals to be here.

Should there be any consequences?


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## Immanuel (Apr 3, 2010)

"We" can't do anything.  The Democrats in Congress will tell us what this nation is going to do if anything.  And any of us who are opposed will be told we do not have a right to make any kind of political statement in opposition to it.

Immie


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## RodISHI (Apr 3, 2010)

Foxfyre said:


> If a number of pundits are right, the focus of the current Administration and Congress will now turn back to illegal immigration.
> 
> What, if anything, should we do to stop people from entering the United States illegally?


Advertise the new strict programs that will be enforce against illegal immigrants and anyone who employs them or contracts labor with them.



			
				Foxfyre said:
			
		

> What, if anything, should we do about those who are already here?


Send them home in a return the illegals bus. No if and's or but's. 



			
				Foxfyre said:
			
		

> What, if anything, should be required of those who make it possible for illegals to be here?


 Fines and jail time. Deportation if they are being harbored by another immigrant. Stop any grants to agencies assisting illegal aliens. Legal Services Corporation Programs Aid Illegal Immigrants | Center for Immigration Studies. 

Programs like the stale bread programs that keep some of these people from starving should not be included in the terms of fines and jail time. There are areas where people do feed some of the illegals day old or thrown out bread. I do think that more should be done to get inside these camps and find out who brought or assisted these people into getting across the border and get them help to get them back across the border.



			
				Foxfyre said:
			
		

> What, if any, penalties or consequences should be imposed on those who:
> a) come here illegally?
> b) give comfort and/or emergency services to those who are here illegally?
> c) give jobs to those who are here illegally?


a) fines and penalties
b) medical emergency services should not be denied. 
c) fine the employers who hired the illegal aliens. Silky has some good ideas. Licenses to be revoke for repeat offenders is a good idea. Banned from government contracts or programs would be another option for a repeat offender. 



			
				Foxfyre said:
			
		

> Should people living in the United States illegally be provided the education benefits, health care, social security, workers compensation benefits, low income assistance, etc. that is available to U.S. citizens?


 Only medical emergencies. As soon as they are able send them home.



			
				Foxfyre said:
			
		

> I'm hoping for some pertinent observations and concrete suggestions for how best to deal with this problem if you believe it is a problem. If you do not see a problem, please explain why you think none exists.



E-verify would have been a good start. If illegal immigrants cannot get work they would not come here. Local police forces should be checking for green cards also when it is obvious or very apparent that the person may be an illegal alien.

Right now in rural communities across the nation contractors, farmers and other employers are preparing to gear up for spring work. Every year for the last five years I've seen contractors in Des Moines doing city work with illegal aliens. There is also a newer mall up there that has several hundred illegal immigrants working there. These contractors and businesses are cheating honest business who hire legitimate workers by cheating and under cutting cost with underpaid illegal workers.

I care more about American workers that need jobs than I do about illegal immigrants that drive the working man's wage down.


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## Founder (Apr 3, 2010)

*HERE IS THE SOLUTION...*

1.  Increase our birthrate of the Best and Brightest among us, and stop subsidizing the birthrate of our worst and dumbest which we do in hundreds of ways, and surely STOP subsidizing the birthrate of the worst and dumbest in loser nations. 

2. Provide sufficient punishment for illegal entry that no one would even think of it. I would suggest 5 years at hard labor, for the first offense, 10 years for the second offense, and 20 years for the third offense. These people come here for money, so making them work their butts off for nothing for 5 years will be sufficient to deter them from ever setting foot here illegally. 

With those kinds of penalties in place we could dismantle all our vast expensive border force and expensive check points. By hard labor, I'm talking about chained ankles and non-stop work 12 hours a day, 7 days a week, 365 days a year. 

THEN when we release them you wouldn't even have to deport them. They would run for the border and dive across on their own. They would generously be given 20 days to get across some border, and if they were caught here after that they would be arrested and get the next highest sentence and so on. That deterrence alone will totally cure anyone from coming here illegally. 

3. Then, if we need them, bring in people who must have very high job skills that we clearly need, and that have at least a BA and the money to take care of any of their needs, and/or 5 to 10 million dollars to add to our economy.  

4. Meanwhile, while this is working itself out, NO services of any sort for any reason, even emergency medical care for any other than citizens. All green carders and such would have 3 months to qualify to become citizens, or out they go. Everyone here must qualify to be a citizen or out they go. 

5. Make it very hard to marry foreigners, and if anyone does marry one, they can never bring in any relatives of the spouse. 

6. Five years in prison for anyone who aids and abets any illegal immigration of any sort. 

7. No flying or showing any flag of any nation other than our own on our soil. One year at hard labor for doing this.  

8. No public speaking in any language other than English, UNLESS the person in question can show they are proficient in English by testing. One year of hard labor for this. 

9. NO rights of citizenship of any sort for anyone who is not an adult American citizen. No trial by jury, or any other right. 

10. No rights of citizenship for any convicted felon. Such people would be encouraged to leave the country to wherever will accept them. They are not welcome here. 

*This is not a perfect list and can be improved upon, but it is a beginning. It would be a good start on our problems in this area. *


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## uscitizen (Apr 3, 2010)

Yes Illegal immigration will likely become a hot topic.  After all we have to blame our problems on someone besides ourselves.


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## &#9773;proletarian&#9773; (Apr 3, 2010)

Foxfyre said:


> If a number of pundits are right, the focus of the current Administration and Congress will now turn back to illegal immigration.
> 
> What, if anything, should we do to stop people from entering the United States illegally?



Put anyone who hires them in prison and stop giving them food, shelter, and medical care. If they're caught, put them in a chain gang and feed them just enough to keep them alive until they fall dead from exhaustion. 


> What, if anything, should we do about those who are already here?



Give them 72 hours to leave. After that, if they're caught, put them in a chain gang and feed them just enough to  keep them alive until they fall dead from exhaustion. 


> What, if anything, should be required of those who make it possible for illegals to be here?



Those who hire or harbour them should be sent to gitmo for helping unknown agents violate our national sovereignty. in six years, they'll be given a hearing to determine whether they were potential terrorists.  Those found guilty will be executed and those found innocent will be detained so they can't recruit others to form terrorist cells.


ZERO FUCKING TOLERANCE!


> What, if any, penalties or consequences should be imposed on those who:
> a) come here illegally?



Chain gang/slavery


> b) give comfort and/or emergency services to those who are here illegally?



Prison and tried for treason for working to dissolve our borders and undermine our soverignty



> c) give jobs to those who are here illegally?


Prison and tried for treason for working to dissolve our borders and  undermine our soverignty


> Should people living in the United States illegally be provided the education benefits, health care, social security, workers compensation benefits, low income assistance, etc. that is available to U.S. citizens?



No. Only citizens should receive full benefits and only citizens and legal residents should receive free education.


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## &#9773;proletarian&#9773; (Apr 3, 2010)

silkyeggsalad said:


> > If a number of pundits are right, the focus of the current Administration and Congress will now turn back to illegal immigration.
> >
> > What, if anything, should we do to stop people from entering the United States illegally?
> 
> ...



Won't happen their race can't maintain a successful first-world nation without the White Mans' help. That's why they come here instead of fixing their own damned nation. The only way the can succeed is as our puppet state.





> > In general, I think most illegal immigrants don't come here to fuck around. They desperately want work so they can support the family. For every horror story about an illegal immigrant joining MS-13, there's probably ten times the number of stories about those who keep their head down, work in a back-breaking job just to send three-fourths of their earning home.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Toronado3800 (Apr 3, 2010)

Make them citizens.

At the very least it would raise our property values.

This is not a joke.

I am willing to keep anyone who goes through that kind of trouble to come up here and work.

Too bad we can't send others back in exchange.


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## &#9773;proletarian&#9773; (Apr 3, 2010)

Toronado3800 said:


> Make them citizens.
> 
> At the very least it would raise our property values.



Right... because a bunch of unemployed people who don't speak English raise property values. Hence the high cost of living in the black ghettos...




> This is not a joke.



Neither is this: you're a fucking moron and people as stupid as you are too stupid to have anything to do with how a country is run. You are a prime example of why democracy doesn't work.





> I am willing to keep anyone who goes through that kind of trouble to come up here and work.



If they did it legally, sure.



> Too bad we can't send others back in exchange.



You need a few bucks for the Greyhound?


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## get_involved (Apr 4, 2010)

Attrition Through Enforcement Is the True Middle-ground Solution

The open borders crowd constantly tell the American people that there are only two solutions to our nation's illegal alien crisis  give illegal aliens amnesty or round them up and deport them. This is a diversionary tactic to draw public attention away from the most effective and efficient solution  Attrition Through Enforcement. 

The principle behind Attrition Through Enforcement is that living illegally in the United States will become more difficult and less satisfying over time when the government  at ALL LEVELS  enforces all of the laws already on the books. It is also imperative that the government with the full cooperation of the private sector, implements certain workplace enforcement measures. The goal is to make it extremely difficult for unauthorized persons to live and work in the United States. There is no need for taxpayers to watch the government spend billions of their dollars to round up and deport illegal aliens; they will buy their own bus or plane tickets back home if they can no longer earn a living here. 

We know Attrition Through Enforcement will work because, until recently, it has been shown to work even with little or no enforcement. As it currently stands, almost 200,000 illegal aliens self-deport from the United States every year, but imagine how many more would leave if our government refused to award illegal aliens another amnesty, mandated all employers to verify a persons eligibility to work here, cracked down on identity fraud, and enabled local police to easily transfer illegal aliens in their custody to the feds.


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## RetiredGySgt (Apr 4, 2010)

uscitizen said:


> Yes Illegal immigration will likely become a hot topic.  After all we have to blame our problems on someone besides ourselves.



Ya cause 20 MILLION Illegals are having no effect on our Health Care costs or our crime rates , ohh and no effect on employment either, RIGHT? God some people are dumb as fucking rocks.


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## Old Rocks (Apr 4, 2010)

Foxfyre said:


> If a number of pundits are right, the focus of the current Administration and Congress will now turn back to illegal immigration.
> 
> What, if anything, should we do to stop people from entering the United States illegally?
> 
> ...



Well, why don't you Conservatives solve the problem. After all, in the wake of 9-11, had Bush said that we are going to lock down our southern border, do you think that any of us would have objected? Over half the illegals have come in since then. And we truly have no idea what or whom has come across that border.

No matter what you state, or what the Conservatives use for their Hatriotism, as long as the illegals can be used to prevent Unions, and create a cheaper labor force, the Consevatives will prevent any thing at all being done about it.


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## RetiredGySgt (Apr 4, 2010)

Old Rocks said:


> Foxfyre said:
> 
> 
> > If a number of pundits are right, the focus of the current Administration and Congress will now turn back to illegal immigration.
> ...



Partisan RETARD ALERT. BOTH PARTIES want illegals. Republicans for cheap labor and Democrats to appease the Hispanics and eventually make them legal so they can vote for them.

The last amnesty did not work, a new one will simply encourage even more people to come here illegally.

This is a National Security issue and whether you like it or not , the Democrats control Congress you dumb ass. And have for over 4 years. IF WE the PEOPLE want anything done we have to get the Democrats to do it.

It is high time this single issue be made large enough to make our Representatives in Congress LOSE their seats over failing to eliminate the Illegals and close the Southern Border.

By the way DUMB FUCK, Obama is cutting Border Agents and the funding to the Agency.


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## editec (Apr 4, 2010)

Foxfyre said:


> If a number of pundits are right, the focus of the current Administration and Congress will now turn back to illegal immigration.


 
You mean "havbe been turning their back to illegal immigration" don't you?

*Both parties* have been ignoring or exacerbating this problem for the las couple decades, after all.



> What, if anything, should we do to stop people from entering the United States illegally?
> 
> What, if anything, should we do about those who are already here?


 
Whatever it takes is what we should be doing. Even up to and including DEADLY force (to keep them out, I mean)



> What, if anything, should be required of those who make it possible for illegals to be here?


 
If they're so interested in making illegals citizens, they ought to exchange places with the immigrants. 



> What, if any, penalties or consequences should be imposed on those who:
> a) come here illegally?


 

Deportation



> b) give comfort and/or emergency services to those who are here illegally?


 
Depends on circumstance



> c) give jobs to those who are here illegally?


 
If they know it? Fine (and/or imprison) the crap out of them



> Should people living in the United States illegally be provided the education benefits, health care, social security, workers compensation benefits, low income assistance, etc. that is available to U.S. citizens?


 
Yes...but of course there should not BE anybody living here illegally, either.

But as long as they're here, really...we have almost no choice.

Do you want millions of kids who aren't in school hanging about?

Do you want to share your community with those people who will be disease ridden and desperate?

There's no good SIMPLE solution to this problem.

We can easily _describe_ what we'd like, but arriving there?

Not so easy.


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## JW Frogen (Apr 4, 2010)

Maybe Mexico and the US should play musical immigration?

Everyone from the US goes to Mexico and everyone from Mexico goes to the US.

Then Americans can both produce and use their own drugs (you can take the drugs out of the addict but you can't take the addictive out of the drugs) and Mexicans can find other reasons to behead and kill each other (you can take the Aztec out of Mexican but you can't take the Mexican out of the Aztec).

What can the Americans do with all that oil wealth and what can the Mexicans do with all that agricultural land with no workers?

Let the great experiment begin.


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## Foxfyre (Apr 4, 2010)

editec said:


> Foxfyre said:
> 
> 
> > If a number of pundits are right, the focus of the current Administration and Congress will now turn back to illegal immigration.
> ...



Why not implement a guest worker program that provides opportunity and some protection against exploitation of people from other countries, and then send everybody home with iinstructions on how to return legally?

Why not a constitutional amendment that says a person has to have at least one US citizen parent in order to be a US citizen even if they are born here?  

Congress has the power to deal with the very few truly hardship cases such as kids who grew up here and have never really known their homeland, etc.

But time and again rewarding people for breaking our laws has encouraged more and more of the same behavior.  If we give amnesty to 12 million illegals now, that probably translates to 20 or 30 million by the time they import the rest of their family.  And it just makes that big flashing neon sign over America bigger:  Ya'll come and if you manage to lay low for just a little while, they'll let you stay.


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## tigerbob (Apr 4, 2010)

Old Rocks said:


> Foxfyre said:
> 
> 
> > If a number of pundits are right, the focus of the current Administration and Congress will now turn back to illegal immigration.
> ...



Why don't you give your views on what should be done, rather than just bleat about conservatives?


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## Foxfyre (Apr 4, 2010)

tigerbob said:


> Old Rocks said:
> 
> 
> > Foxfyre said:
> ...



Thank you.

President Bush's solution and John McCain's solution and Lindsay Graham's solution re immigration were and are NOT conservative.  It was their decidedly unconservative approach to illegal immigration, environmental issues, spending, and expansion of government powers that cost the GOP their majority in 2006.  And if McCain and Graham continue along this vein in the current immigration debate, it could cost the GOP any chance to regain their majority in November.


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## Founder (Apr 4, 2010)

get_involved said:


> Attrition Through Enforcement Is the True Middle-ground Solution
> 
> The open borders crowd constantly tell the American people that there are only two solutions to our nation's illegal alien crisis &#8211; give illegal aliens amnesty or round them up and deport them. This is a diversionary tactic to draw public attention away from the most effective and efficient solution &#8211; Attrition Through Enforcement.
> 
> ...



*Great Post! Add to it an admonition for the Best and Brightest Americans to start having babies again to meet our own needs for workers, and you have a program I can support. Our ultra low birth rate among our best citizens is an alarming HALF OF REPLACEMENT. That equals self suicide, and self genocide, and self holocaust. *


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## Immanuel (Apr 4, 2010)

Toronado3800 said:


> Make them citizens.
> 
> At the very least it would raise our property values.
> 
> ...



Isn't that basically what Foxfyre is saying will happen here.  The Democratic Party would simply love to be the ones that accomplished such task, because they would be assured of adding the vast majority to their base.  After all, if the Democrats "care" so much for them, all those illegals will return the favor, won't they?

I'm not so sure that is a good idea.

Immie


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## Immanuel (Apr 4, 2010)

Old Rocks said:


> Well, why don't you Conservatives solve the problem. After all, in the wake of 9-11, had Bush said that we are going to lock down our southern border, do you think that any of us would have objected? Over half the illegals have come in since then. And we truly have no idea what or whom has come across that border.
> 
> No matter what you state, or what the Conservatives use for their Hatriotism, as long as the illegals can be used to prevent Unions, and create a cheaper labor force, the Consevatives will prevent any thing at all being done about it.



Why does it always have to be "you guys solve the problem"?

We're never going to solve any problems if we continue to look at it like that.

We can't solve the problems of this country by only giving one side or the other a voice.  If we don't resolve to come together to solve our problems things are only going to get worse.

I consider myself kind of middle of the road.  Meaning that I view things in a conservative manner, but quite frankly, I support many liberal programs at least the ideas behind them.  Things like Welfare and Social Security are good ideas.  I simply think we could do better by modernizing them.  I don't have ALL the answers.  In fact, sometimes I wonder if I have any of the answers, but we are never going to come to any answers if we don't come together to work them out.

Immie


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## Terral (Apr 4, 2010)

Hi Fox:



Foxfyre said:


> If a number of pundits are right, the focus of the current Administration and Congress will now turn back to illegal immigration.



That would make everyone involved guilty of a felony carrying a minimum 5-year prison term for helping an illegal alien obtain legal status. We have been through ALL of this crap before and the result was the *"Immigration Reform And Control Act Of 1986"* (Wiki) that allowed up to 3 Million Illegal Aliens to become legal U.S. Citizens. Americans must NOT allow your bought-and-paid-for Congress to get away with breaking their promises that we would NEVER give away American Citizenship as a reward for coming into the USA in the middle of the night through the back door to steal American identities and JOBS. Our State Attorney Generals must enforce the "Rule Of Law" and place every member of Congress in custody for assisting Illegal Aliens to obtain legal status, because every member of Congress is supposed to be an "American" living under the same Laws Of The Land.   



Foxfyre said:


> What, if anything, should we do to stop people from entering the United States illegally?



1. Congress must provide '*Congressional Oversight*' and force the out-of-control Obama Administration to 'enforce' the perfectly good provisions of the Immigration Reform And Control Act of 1986 that forbids American Employers from hiring undocumented workers that 'displace' U.S. Workers from JOBS. The biggest employer of Illegal Aliens right now is the U.S. Government, which means We The People cannot trust the Federal Government to enforce ANY Immigration and Employment Laws. 

That means *'NO' new legislation* that gives away Illegal Amnesty to ANYONE, because our Congress and Obama Administration have NO credibility and NO intention of keeping promises to 'enforce' any Immigration/Employment Laws. If you place every 'employer' in jail for hiring Illegal Alien Foreign Nationals, then nobody will hire them 'and' the Illegals will find their own way back home. And, guess what??? We create all of those "JOBS" for real Americans standing in the unemployment line ...



Foxfyre said:


> What, if anything, should we do about those who are already here?



Nothing. Enforce the Employment Laws that apply to EVERY AMERICAN EMPLOYER and the Illegal Aliens will go home! Period!



Foxfyre said:


> What, if anything, should be required of those who make it possible for illegals to be here?



Throw those harboring/aiding/abetting Illegal Aliens into jail and make an example of those breaking the Immigration Reform And Control Act Of 1986. Think about it: If the Government stops enforcing the laws applying to bank robbery, then people will start holding up banks in great numbers; until someone finally starts enforcing the Rule Of Law. If nobody is going to enforce the Immigration/Employment Laws already on the books, then no amount of new laws is going to change anything. Giving Illegal Amnesty away as a reward to Lawbreakers will only kick the back door open that much wider to the next batch of Illegal Aliens and the cycle will never end. The problem is NOT with Illegal Aliens, but with Corrupt Politicians refusing to enforce the Law.



Foxfyre said:


> What, if any, penalties or consequences should be imposed on those who:
> a) come here illegally?



Arrest and tattoo every Illegal Alien and every Illegal Employer for their first offense. If either party breaks the Immigration/Employment Laws again, then bury them 6 feet under. Adopt a Zero-tolerance Enforcement Strategy and everyone will get the message really fast ...



Foxfyre said:


> b) give comfort and/or emergency services to those who are here illegally?



Harboring, Aiding and Abetting Illegal Aliens in Mexico gets you two to three years in prison. Americans need to ENFORCE the same kind of rules to protect the JOBS of real Americans. Every empty seat on every bus, train and plane to Mexico should be filled by Illegal Aliens carrying their brand new "*Never Come Back*" tattoo. Those caught in this country illegal can *'never' apply* for U.S. Citizenship. Period ...



Foxfyre said:


> c) give jobs to those who are here  illegally?



Those hiring Illegal Aliens are taking bread out of the mouths of American children and should lose their business license FOREVER ...



Foxfyre said:


> Should people living in the United States illegally be provided the education benefits, health care, social security, workers compensation benefits, low income assistance, etc. that is available to U.S. citizens?



No! Every benefit you extend to people that are NOT even supposed to be here only gives more power to the Illegal Alien Magnet drawing more Illegals across the border. Send the message that "We Are Enforcing The Law" and the Illegals will stay home ...

The biggest problem facing America today is "Worker Displacement" that began with the displacement of 20 Million Americans by Illegal Alien Foreign Nationals right under our noses. Then the 20 Million Displaced Americans had to go out and take JOBS from another 20 Million Americans and the 'Displacement Cycle' continues to destroy JOBS for Americans each and every day. Displaced Americans cannot afford to pay their mortgages, which led to the Foreclosure Crisis and the Bankruptcy Crisis. 

Displaced Americans cannot afford to pay their taxes, which led to the State and County Budget Crisis that is forcing local governments to shed even more JOBS. The American Consumer/Tax Base is eroding away with an Imploding American Economy 'and' (this takes the cake), the corrupt Congress and Obama Administration actually want to reward Illegal Aliens and their unscrupulous employers with Illegal Amnesty to boot!!!! If Stupid Americans (#1-11) actually sit back and allow this corrupt Congress and Obama Administration to break the "*Rule Of Law*," by giving away Illegal Amnesty to another 20 Million Goddamned Illegal Aliens 'and' their Employers, then the USA 'is' worthy of utter destruction off the face of the earth ...

This Illegal Alien Amnesty Bullony might be enough to start the next American Civil War and the corrupt Congress should be the first heads to roll ...

GL,

Terral


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## &#9773;proletarian&#9773; (Apr 4, 2010)

Foxfyre said:


> Why not implement a guest worker program that provides opportunity and some protection against exploitation of people from other countries



Such things already exist. Special visas exist for migrant/seasonal workers, students, and random people. Hell, you can even get a visa for being a different colour and winning the 'Help Wipe Out the White Man in America Lottery.'

Diversity Immigrant Visa - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


> , and then send everybody home with iinstructions on how to return legally?



They did that before en masse (Operation Wetback) and they've been doing it with them all ever since. You even missed the late bus on that one.


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## Angelhair (Apr 4, 2010)

_This country has already given too much to too many! Stop the freebies and watch how fast they run back home._


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## Father Time (Apr 4, 2010)

editec said:


> Foxfyre said:
> 
> 
> > If a number of pundits are right, the focus of the current Administration and Congress will now turn back to illegal immigration.
> ...



So you want to kill someone because they want to move here? That makes no sense.



editec said:


> If they're so interested in making illegals citizens, they ought to exchange places with the immigrants.



 Because of course that's the only way it can be done


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## &#9773;proletarian&#9773; (Apr 4, 2010)

Father Time said:


> So you want to kill someone because they want to move here? That makes no sense.



He never said that.

Are you stupid, a liar, or both?


----------



## Father Time (Apr 4, 2010)

&#9773;proletarian&#9773;;2172718 said:
			
		

> Those who hire or harbour them should be sent to gitmo for helping unknown agents violate our national sovereignty. in six years, they'll be given a hearing to determine whether they were potential terrorists.  Those found guilty will be executed and those found innocent will be detained so they can't recruit others to form terrorist cells.
> 
> 
> ZERO FUCKING TOLERANCE!



All the 9/11 hijackers were here on legal visas you twit. Also it's great to know you're willing to hand out draconian sentences and ignore reason just to stop 'dem foreigners'.


----------



## Father Time (Apr 4, 2010)

&#9773;proletarian&#9773;;2174107 said:
			
		

> Father Time said:
> 
> 
> > So you want to kill someone because they want to move here? That makes no sense.
> ...



He said he wanted to use deadly force to stop them.


----------



## Foxfyre (Apr 4, 2010)

Founder said:


> *HERE IS THE SOLUTION...*
> 
> 1.  Increase our birthrate of the Best and Brightest among us, and stop subsidizing the birthrate of our worst and dumbest which we do in hundreds of ways, and surely STOP subsidizing the birthrate of the worst and dumbest in loser nations.
> 
> ...



I like a lot of your suggestions here, but some seem a bit on the extreme side.  Are there any you would moderate in any way or would you be prepared to defend each point?


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## &#9773;proletarian&#9773; (Apr 4, 2010)

Father Time said:


> All the 9/11 hijackers were here on legal visas you twit.



And? What's your point? Did I ever claim that only people who were here illegally were potential terrorists? Do feel free to show where I said that.

Now the question is this: why do you insist on being so stupid?



> Also it's great to know you're willing to hand out draconian sentences and ignore reason just to stop 'dem foreigners'.


You're an idiot. Nobody in this thread save WJ has objected to immigration, you twit.


----------



## &#9773;proletarian&#9773; (Apr 4, 2010)

Father Time said:


> &#9773;proletarian&#9773;;2174107 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Really? Do cite where he said he wanted to use deadly force to stop anyone who wants to move to the US.


----------



## Foxfyre (Apr 4, 2010)

silkyeggsalad said:


> > If a number of pundits are right, the focus of the current Administration and Congress will now turn back to illegal immigration.
> >
> > What, if anything, should we do to stop people from entering the United States illegally?
> 
> ...



I think most conservatives would buy into most of your points.  But SCOTUS--at least I think it was the high court--tells us we cannot deny social services to illegals.  How do we get around that?


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## Father Time (Apr 4, 2010)

Well I just want to know why you think all immigrants should be treated as potential terrorists and that we should assume those that hire illegals should be treated like they want to make terrorists cells.


----------



## Father Time (Apr 4, 2010)

&#9773;proletarian&#9773;;2174125 said:
			
		

> Father Time said:
> 
> 
> > &#9773;proletarian&#9773;;2174107 said:
> ...



You're putting words in my mouth, the only thing we can be sure the illegals want to do is move here so I want to know why he thinks that's something to kill someone over.


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## Samson (Apr 4, 2010)

Father Time said:


> Well I just want to know why you think all immigrants should be treated as potential terrorists and that we should assume those that hire illegals should be treated like they want to make terrorists cells.




Hell, _*I get treated*_ like a potential terrorist if I wanna fly from Denver to Houston.

Why the fuck _Shouldn't_ Juan Gomez be treated like a potential terrorist if he wants to travel from Monterry to Houston?


----------



## &#9773;proletarian&#9773; (Apr 4, 2010)

Founder said:


> *HERE IS THE SOLUTION...*
> 
> 1.  Increase our birthrate of the Best and Brightest among us, and stop subsidizing the birthrate of our worst and dumbest which we do in hundreds of ways, and surely STOP subsidizing the birthrate of the worst and dumbest in loser nations.



In other words, more of this?








> 4. Meanwhile, while this is working itself out, NO services of any sort for any reason, even emergency medical care for any other than citizens.



Right... keep legal residents and their children uneducated so we can continue to have alarge population of ignorant unemployables sucking on the public teat....



> 5. Make it very hard to marry foreigners, and if anyone does marry one, they can never bring in any relatives of the spouse.



Really? So if a man's sister marries an American he can never himself become a citizen?


> 7. No flying or showing any flag of any nation other than our own on our soil. One year at hard labor for doing this.



You do realize that we host foreign dignitaries, right?


> 9. NO rights of citizenship of any sort for anyone who is not an adult American citizen. No trial by jury, or any other right.



Right... so a seventeen-year-old gets no jury trial, no protection of his life.... a 12 year old girl can be raped at will because she has no right simply because she is twelve?


> 10. No rights of citizenship for any convicted felon. Such people would be encouraged to leave the country to wherever will accept them. They are not welcome here.



Right... because nobody has ever been a productive member of society who has committed crimes in the past. Instead, we should further ensure that their only means of sustenance is continued criminal activity, since they can receive neither public education nor protection of their right to seek employment. Fucking brilliant..

Ever heard of Andrew Jackson?


----------



## &#9773;proletarian&#9773; (Apr 4, 2010)

Father Time said:


> Well I just want to know why you think all immigrants should be treated as potential terrorists and that we should assume those that hire illegals should be treated like they want to make terrorists cells.


Nobody ever said that.

Why do you lie?


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## Father Time (Apr 4, 2010)

&#9773;proletarian&#9773;;2174155 said:
			
		

> Father Time said:
> 
> 
> > Well I just want to know why you think all immigrants should be treated as potential terrorists and that we should assume those that hire illegals should be treated like they want to make terrorists cells.
> ...



Sure sounded like it, didn't you say those who harbor illegals get sent to Gitmo for 6 years?


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## &#9773;proletarian&#9773; (Apr 4, 2010)

Father Time said:


> &#9773;proletarian&#9773;;2174155 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You seem to think all immigrants are illegals aliens, seeing as you use the two interchangeably.

Clearly, you're too stupid to be part of this discussion.


----------



## Father Time (Apr 4, 2010)

Founder said:


> *HERE IS THE SOLUTION...*
> 2. Provide sufficient punishment for illegal entry that no one would even think of it. I would suggest 5 years at hard labor, for the first offense, 10 years for the second offense, and 20 years for the third offense. These people come here for money, so making them work their butts off for nothing for 5 years will be sufficient to deter them from ever setting foot here illegally.
> 
> With those kinds of penalties in place we could dismantle all our vast expensive border force and expensive check points. By hard labor, I'm talking about chained ankles and non-stop work 12 hours a day, 7 days a week, 365 days a year.



I'm pretty sure that would violate cruel and unusual punishment. In either case it's stupidly draconian.


Founder said:


> THEN when we release them you wouldn't even have to deport them. They would run for the border and dive across on their own. They would generously be given 20 days to get across some border, and if they were caught here after that they would be arrested and get the next highest sentence and so on. That deterrence alone will totally cure anyone from coming here illegally.



Has such deterrence EVER worked? A lot of other civilizations have tried the "unreasonable punishments so no one does it" thing and I doubt it worked.



Founder said:


> 3. Then, if we need them, bring in people who must have very high job skills that we clearly need, and that have at least a BA and the money to take care of any of their needs, and/or 5 to 10 million dollars to add to our economy.



Yeah make it even harder to move here legally that'll drop illegal immigration, and by that I mean that's stupid. And why shouldn't blue collar types be able to move here?



Founder said:


> 6. Five years in prison for anyone who aids and abets any illegal immigration of any sort.



Which will do nothing but clog our prisons.



Founder said:


> 7. No flying or showing any flag of any nation other than our own on our soil. One year at hard labor for doing this.



Such law will be thrown out as unconstitutional at record speed for violating the first amendment.



Founder said:


> 8. No public speaking in any language other than English,



See above



Founder said:


> This is not a perfect list



Hey something I can finally agree with.


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## Samson (Apr 4, 2010)

&#9773;proletarian&#9773;;2174179 said:
			
		

> Father Time said:
> 
> 
> > &#9773;proletarian&#9773;;2174155 said:
> ...



If I thought you were BOTH too stupid to be part of this discussion, would I get pos rep?


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## Father Time (Apr 4, 2010)

&#9773;proletarian&#9773;;2174179 said:
			
		

> Father Time said:
> 
> 
> > &#9773;proletarian&#9773;;2174155 said:
> ...



I meant to say all illegals, sorry about that.


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## &#9773;proletarian&#9773; (Apr 4, 2010)

Bullshit. This whole time, you've used the two interchangeably to misrepresent Ed's words. 

You clearly too stupid and/or too dishonest to bother with any further.


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## Father Time (Apr 4, 2010)

Well we were talking about illegal immigrants so I thought I didn't need to clarify that. But fine pretend I said illegal immigrants.


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## Foxfyre (Apr 4, 2010)

Father Time said:


> Well I just want to know why you think all immigrants should be treated as potential terrorists and that we should assume those that hire illegals should be treated like they want to make terrorists cells.



Let's put this into the proper context.  Nobody has said all immigrants in any context, except you.

What we are talking about here is illegal immigration.  Illegal immigrants, by definition, are illegal.  They are thumbing their noses at our laws, and a disproportionate percentage of prisoners in our prisons, especially in the border states, are illegals that committed worse crimes than crossing the border illegally.

I'm not saying they should be please.  But please explain your rationale for why all illegal immigrants should not be treated as potential terrorists.


----------



## Polk (Apr 4, 2010)

Immanuel said:


> "We" can't do anything.  The Democrats in Congress will tell us what this nation is going to do if anything.  And any of us who are opposed will be told we do not have a right to make any kind of political statement in opposition to it.
> 
> Immie



And by "political statement", you mean throwing bricks through windows and planning to blow shit up.


----------



## Father Time (Apr 4, 2010)

Foxfyre said:


> Father Time said:
> 
> 
> > Well I just want to know why you think all immigrants should be treated as potential terrorists and that we should assume those that hire illegals should be treated like they want to make terrorists cells.
> ...



I meant all illegal immigrants, sorry.

They should not all be treated as potential terrorists because crossing the border (even illegally) is not a sign that they're terrorists. It's that simple.

Also I want a source that most people in prison in border states are illegals.


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## Samson (Apr 4, 2010)

Father Time said:


> Foxfyre said:
> 
> 
> > Father Time said:
> ...



Why is it, that I, an American Citizen, must show identification, go through a metal detector, take my shoes off, etc., to fly from Denver to Houston, but an illegal alien should be able to walk into Houston carrying whatever the hell dirty bomb he may have, and never be asked to REMOVE HIS SHOES?


----------



## Immanuel (Apr 4, 2010)

Polk said:


> Immanuel said:
> 
> 
> > "We" can't do anything.  The Democrats in Congress will tell us what this nation is going to do if anything.  And any of us who are opposed will be told we do not have a right to make any kind of political statement in opposition to it.
> ...



No, I mean putting a sign on the door to your office telling the government to shove it when they try to force you to work for next to nothing.

Immie


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## Angelhair (Apr 4, 2010)

Also I want a source that most people in prison in border states are illegals. 


The Illegal-Alien Crime Wave by Heather Mac Donald, City Journal Winter 2004


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## Angelhair (Apr 4, 2010)

" Illegal immigrants collectively represent a group that is a significant menace to the public. 80% have committed serious crimes in addition to immigration violations, and 40% have violent crime histories."
(Center for Immigration Studies).


"25-50% of all gangsters arrested in the criminal gang suppression efforts in northern and western Virginia are estimated to be illegal immigrants."
(Study for Immigration Studies).


"Gang investigators in Virginia estimate that 90% of the members of MS-13, the most notorious immigrant gang, are illegal immigrants."
(Center for Immigration Studies).


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## Samson (Apr 4, 2010)

Angelhair said:


> "25-50% of all gangsters arrested in the criminal gang suppression efforts in northern and western Virginia are estimated to be illegal immigrants."
> (Study for Immigration Studies).



The Study for Immigration Studies?

I'll need to study that one.


----------



## Polk (Apr 4, 2010)

Immanuel said:


> Polk said:
> 
> 
> > Immanuel said:
> ...



Yeah, doctors are paupers, don't you know.


----------



## Immanuel (Apr 4, 2010)

Polk said:


> Immanuel said:
> 
> 
> > Polk said:
> ...



Doesn't matter... any doctor that stands up and says he is opposed to Obama's health care plan suddenly finds himself on the enemies of state list or at least the enemy of the media list.  Not so sure which is worse.

Immie


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## Father Time (Apr 4, 2010)

Angelhair said:


> Also I want a source that most people in prison in border states are illegals.
> 
> 
> The Illegal-Alien Crime Wave by Heather Mac Donald, City Journal Winter 2004



So far both your links come out of the same conservative think tank, interesting.


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## Polk (Apr 4, 2010)

Immanuel said:


> Polk said:
> 
> 
> > Immanuel said:
> ...



Yeah. The guy is having bamboo shoots jabbed under his fingernails right now, don't you know.


----------



## Father Time (Apr 4, 2010)

Samson said:


> Angelhair said:
> 
> 
> > "25-50% of all gangsters arrested in the criminal gang suppression efforts in northern and western Virginia are estimated to be illegal immigrants."
> ...



I can't find it on google so I'm tempted to believe it doesn't exist.

Although the center isn't exactly neutral itself.


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## Samson (Apr 4, 2010)

Father Time said:


> Samson said:
> 
> 
> > Angelhair said:
> ...



Um....yes, I'm tempted to believe that also....


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## Immanuel (Apr 4, 2010)

Polk said:


> Immanuel said:
> 
> 
> > Polk said:
> ...



Must you give them the idea?  Ask Care4all, I'm sure she would be thrilled to do the jabbing.  

Immie


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## Sheldon (Apr 4, 2010)

Foxfyre said:


> silkyeggsalad said:
> 
> 
> > > If a number of pundits are right, the focus of the current Administration and Congress will now turn back to illegal immigration.
> ...



I'm not sure. Could you site the case, because now I'm curious to know the thought process behind that concept.

I think it's important to distinguish between illegal immigrants and non-citizens. A foreigner on vacation here should receive ER medical care, even though the hospital may not recognize that individual's insurance--which many foreign countries don't require of their citizens, anyways (let me put it this way: if I were on vacation in England, I'd want preliminary access to their hospitals in case I got hit by a big red bus because I forgot they drive on the wrong side of the road).

But what do we mean by social services? That's a broad definition, and I can see where treating an illegal immigrant in the ER with a severed hand could be justified--I'm not arguing for or against that, but I can see the merits to both arguments--but I couldn't see an argument for providing, say, unemployment counseling, or housing assistance to someone who cannot verify their citizenship with legal documents.

The case you're referring to may make some important distinctions regarding "social services". Or maybe not. I don't have much faith in SCOTUS these days, especially since _Kelo -v- New London_.


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## Polk (Apr 4, 2010)

Immanuel said:


> Polk said:
> 
> 
> > Immanuel said:
> ...



Really though, the guy isn't taking flax of his political positions. If he had simply stated his views, there wouldn't have been any outrage. It's that he's saying he's going to violate the ethical tenets of his profession over his political views that made it such an issue. I know for sure that if I was an African-American, I'd find another doctor. I'm not saying he'd try to kill anyone, but there is a sizable body of research that suggests how well you get along with your doctor has a direct impact on medical outcomes.


----------



## Father Time (Apr 4, 2010)

Samson said:


> Father Time said:
> 
> 
> > Foxfyre said:
> ...



Ok fine but prol was speaking of Gitmo and I think that's taking it way too far.


----------



## Immanuel (Apr 4, 2010)

Polk said:


> Immanuel said:
> 
> 
> > Polk said:
> ...



Well, I respect your opinion, but I don't see it in the same light as you do.  

I think that despite the fact that the sign was addressed to his patients, the message was intended solely for the government.

If he had actually turned away customers or asked them to sign a form stating they had not voted for President Obama or even asked them if they did, I would agree you.  I think the message was only meant for the government.

By the way, in the other two threads I have discussed this in, I initially stated if he had been my doctor, he would no longer be.  I do not approve of his methods.  This is not the fault of those who voted for the President.  They had no way of knowing what would happen.

Immie


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## Polk (Apr 4, 2010)

How would it not be their fault? To the extent voters are responsible for anything that occurs, surely they're accountable to voting for a candidate and then that candidate carrying out his campaign promises.


----------



## Immanuel (Apr 4, 2010)

Polk said:


> How would it not be their fault? To the extent voters are responsible for anything that occurs, surely they're accountable to voting for a candidate and then that candidate carrying out his campaign promises.



Like a candidate has ever followed through with a promise!

Obama promised health care reform.  He didn't promise the shit we got.

Immie


----------



## Polk (Apr 4, 2010)

Immanuel said:


> Polk said:
> 
> 
> > How would it not be their fault? To the extent voters are responsible for anything that occurs, surely they're accountable to voting for a candidate and then that candidate carrying out his campaign promises.
> ...



Isn't that sorta like saying he promised ice cream, but you can't say he delivered it because it's strawberry?


----------



## Immanuel (Apr 4, 2010)

Polk said:


> Immanuel said:
> 
> 
> > Polk said:
> ...



No, its like saying we all wanted Health Care Reform and we got a government take over.

Another thing, most people, regardless of party, don't vote on the promises, they vote for the party.  Maybe you can blame them for that, but that is getting a bit petty in my opinion.

Immie


----------



## Polk (Apr 4, 2010)

Immanuel said:


> Polk said:
> 
> 
> > Immanuel said:
> ...



A system which giving the private insurance sector millions of captive consumers is a government takeover? That's pretty darn funny.


----------



## Immanuel (Apr 4, 2010)

Polk said:


> Immanuel said:
> 
> 
> > Polk said:
> ...



When you make that system into a puppet of the government it sure as hell is a government takeover.

And besides, this is only step one.  President Obama has told us his intentions are to make all health care government run within twenty years.  He's well on his way and ahead of schedule.

Immie


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## Polk (Apr 4, 2010)

Immanuel said:


> Polk said:
> 
> 
> > Immanuel said:
> ...



And now you're just making shit up.


----------



## Immanuel (Apr 4, 2010)

Polk said:


> Immanuel said:
> 
> 
> > Polk said:
> ...



Oh really?

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fpAyan1fXCE]YouTube - Obama on single payer health insurance[/ame]

Obama in '07: Health Care Goal Is to Ultimately Eliminate Private Insurance | PoliJAM Blog

Making shit up?  Did he or did he not say 20 years?

Immie


----------



## Polk (Apr 4, 2010)

He never mentioned 20 years in the video. Also, if you'd have actually paid attention to all of his comments, instead of just hacking up a single small clip, he's said that he'd prefer a single-payer system if he was starting from scratch.


----------



## Meister (Apr 4, 2010)

Polk said:


> He never mentioned 20 years in the video. Also, if you'd have actually paid attention to all of his comments, instead of just hacking up a single small clip, he's said that he'd prefer a single-payer system if he was starting from scratch.



Polk I did hear Obama say he is in favor of a single payer plan and it may take  15-20 years to get it.  I don't know why you can't be honest with that, if you are as informed as you claim to be.


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## &#9773;proletarian&#9773; (Apr 5, 2010)

Father Time said:


> Foxfyre said:
> 
> 
> > Father Time said:
> ...


Why?

Who claimed that?

You're proving yourself a lying sack of shit again.


----------



## &#9773;proletarian&#9773; (Apr 5, 2010)

Father Time said:


> Angelhair said:
> 
> 
> > Also I want a source that most people in prison in border states are illegals.
> ...


So far you've yet to point out any flaw in either one.

Interesting...


----------



## Father Time (Apr 5, 2010)

&#9773;proletarian&#9773;;2175772 said:
			
		

> Father Time said:
> 
> 
> > Foxfyre said:
> ...



Try reading other people's posts



Foxfyre said:


> What we are talking about here is illegal immigration.  Illegal immigrants, by definition, are illegal.  They are thumbing their noses at our laws, and a disproportionate percentage of prisoners in our prisons, especially in the border states, are illegals that committed worse crimes than crossing the border illegally.



So it's technically not most as in >50% but close enough.


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## Father Time (Apr 5, 2010)

&#9773;proletarian&#9773;;2175775 said:
			
		

> Father Time said:
> 
> 
> > Angelhair said:
> ...



The one Angel hair quoted for instance all they have is their word, no other sources, and I'm not going to trust a think tank on their word alone.


----------



## &#9773;proletarian&#9773; (Apr 5, 2010)

Father Time said:


> &#9773;proletarian&#9773;;2175772 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



The irony...


> Foxfyre said:
> 
> 
> > What we are talking about here is illegal immigration.  Illegal immigrants, by definition, are illegal.  They are thumbing their noses at our laws, and a disproportionate percentage of prisoners in our prisons, especially in the border states, are illegals that committed worse crimes than crossing the border illegally.
> ...





I get the distinct impression that you're illiterate as well as stupid.


----------



## Founder (Apr 5, 2010)

Foxfyre said:


> Founder said:
> 
> 
> > *HERE IS THE SOLUTION...*
> ...



*These are just my initial proposals. Anything is negotiable. I'm just trying to get us headed more toward self-interest AS A NATION, and away from the direction that Democrats always take us toward sacrificing American blood, principles and treasure to serve the national interests of other nations and peoples, not to speak of our own parasitical bums and criminals at all levels of society, (mostly all card carrying Democrats.) *


----------



## Angelhair (Apr 5, 2010)

ICE leads nationwide operation to disrupt transnational gangs 

Project Big Freeze focused on hotbeds of gang activity in 83 cities around the country in the largest U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE)-led enforcement operation targeting* transnational gangs with ties to drug trafficking organizations.*

From Jan. 17-24, after two months of intelligence- and information-gathering, ICE, together with more than 115 other federal, state and local law enforcement partners, identified, located and put behind bars 447 gang members and seized 45 firearms. *An additional 65 individuals were arrested on federal and/or state criminal violations, including administrative immigration violations.*

Law enforcement officials targeted members from 28 transnational street gangs, many of whom not only traffic in drugs and firearms but also commit murder, rape, robbery and a host of other crimes in perpetuating and furthering their criminal enterprises. ICE conducted the bold sweep to "rid our streets not only of drug dealers, but the violence associated with the drug trade," said ICE Assistant Secretary John Morton.

In a press conference held at ICE's Potomac Center North headquarters building on Jan. 27, Assistant Secretary Morton said, "The significance of this operation is not just its size. It also reflects how powerful cooperation between federal and local law enforcement can be."

Dallas Police Department's Assistant Chief Charles M. Cato also spoke to conference attendees. He credited the reduced number of homicides in Dallas in the past five years (248 in 2004 compared to 166 in 2009) to law enforcement programs, such as ICE's Operation Community Shield (OCS), which was initiated in 2005. Through OCS, ICE, in collaboration with our federal, state, local, tribal and foreign law enforcement partners, combats transnational criminal street gangs using ICE's unique administrative and statutory authorities, expert investigative techniques and technological resources.

Morton expounded on Chief Cato's correlation between the drop in crime and law enforcement activity explaining how targeting gang members and gang organizations lowers rates of recidivism.

"Members of these gangs are institutionally involved in crime and so are their organizations." Morton said. *"The beauty of ICE's authority is that it is a powerful tool to bring these criminals to prosecution and then remove them from the United States."*

*A case in point is that of the 447 individuals arrested as a result of Project Big Freeze, 366 are foreign nationals who face deportation after their criminal prosecutions are complete.*

Richfield, Minn. Police Chief Barry Fritz, whose agency also participated in the nationwide gang operation, praised ICE personnel, saying "they were wonderful and accommodating." Project Big Freeze was a force multiplier with ICE providing the resources, personnel and technology and ability to cross jurisdictions from state to state, as well as charge subjects federally.

"It's a two-way street," said Fritz. Local law enforcement help federal officials in that, "We know our city and where the people are."

See the ICE press release on Project Big Freeze for further information.

Visit the ICE image gallery for more photos from Project Big Freeze.


-- ICE --


----------



## Immanuel (Apr 5, 2010)

Polk said:


> He never mentioned 20 years in the video. Also, if you'd have actually paid attention to all of his comments, instead of just hacking up a single small clip, he's said that he'd prefer a single-payer system if he was starting from scratch.



There were two videos... check out the second one in which he does mention 20 years.

Here is the link to the second one again:

Obama in '07: Health Care Goal Is to Ultimately Eliminate Private Insurance | PoliJAM Blog

He says at the one minute mark that he can envision this a decade out, or fifteen to twenty years out.  

Immie


----------



## Foxfyre (Apr 5, 2010)

Father Time said:


> &#9773;proletarian&#9773;;2175772 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I am serously considering offering a remedial reading and/or reading comprehension program for a select few of USMB members.

We'll start with a discussion that 'some', even in liberal speak, doesn't not mean 'all'.
One person does not mean all persons.
'Probably' does not mean 'absolutely'.
'Somewhat' does not mean 'definitely'.
And 'disproportionate percentage' does not mean 'most' or even '50%'.


----------



## Father Time (Apr 5, 2010)

Foxfyre said:


> Father Time said:
> 
> 
> > &#9773;proletarian&#9773;;2175772 said:
> ...



Sorry I'd rather not take lessons from someone who thinks 'some' means 'all'. (Hey if you get to harp on one mistake so do I).


----------



## Meister (Apr 5, 2010)

Father Time said:


> &#9773;proletarian&#9773;;2175775 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You can believe what you want, but the numbers no matter what they are, are expensive to the tax payers of this great nation.  

In Los Angeles, over 95% of arrest warrants issued for the crime of murder are for illegal aliens. At least 83% of arrest warrants for murder in Phoenix are for illegal aliens. The number climbs to 86% for Albuquerque. The most wanted lists for each of these cities is comprised of at least 75% illegal aliens.

The problem of prison overcrowding in California has been in the media many times over the past few months. Governor Schwarzenegger has attempted to gain relief from the overcrowding problem by shipping inmates to facilities in other states. Nearly 25% of the California prison population is comprised of illegal aliens. In Arizona, illegal aliens make up over 40% of the prison population and in New Mexico, the number is nearly 50%. 

Illegal aliens account for nearly 30% of prison populations nationwide. This includes both state and federal prisons. The cost to house these illegal aliens is more than $1.6 billion dollars each year.

Statistics from 2005 indicate that over 75% of automobile thefts that occurred in Arizona, Nevada, California, Texas, and New Mexico were either stolen by illegal aliens or used to transport illegal aliens. Almost half of the drivers stopped in California for traffic violations have no driver's license, insurance, or registration. 92% of those are illegal aliens. In Arizona, 63% of those stopped have no license, registration or insurance and 97% of those people are illegal aliens. New Mexico's percentages are 66% stopped with no license, insurance and registration and 98% of those are illegal aliens.
Statistics: Crimes Commited by Illegal Aliens - Associated Content - associatedcontent.com


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## Sheldon (Apr 5, 2010)

Meister said:


> Father Time said:
> 
> 
> > &#9773;proletarian&#9773;;2175775 said:
> ...



That study--or "study"--has been circulating the innerwebs for a few years, but can't be sourced to either the FBI or the INS. From what I can tell, it started as email spam from the CAII. Here's the snope.com link that dissects some of it:
snopes.com: Just One State - Cost of Illegals in Los Angeles

Also, your link is from a content mill--where people get paid based on the volume of content they write. This can mean it's not a valid source of information because the content is verified, only counted. The linked article doesn't source the information, although I know what she's referring to:
New FBI Statistics on Crimes Committed by Illegal Aliens

That study--or "study"--should be taken with a massive grain of salt--aka skepticism.


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## Meister (Apr 5, 2010)

silkyeggsalad said:


> Meister said:
> 
> 
> > Father Time said:
> ...



perhaps you should read my first statement.  It does cost the taxpayers a hell of a lot of money, no matter what the numbers are.  just sayin... and undeniable


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## Sheldon (Apr 5, 2010)

Meister said:


> silkyeggsalad said:
> 
> 
> > Meister said:
> ...



I agree. It does cost tax dollars. I'd prefer our tax dollars in relation to illegal immigration be spent on enforcement, rather than providing social services or incarceration.

I can't wrap my head around why we imprison illegal immigrants instead of deporting them. I can see it for felony charges--but I think the numbers in the cited study are unreliable--but much of our prison population is for non-violent crimes and I have no reason to believe that ratio doesn't translate to the illegal immigrant population as well. Illegal immigrants arrested for non-violent crimes should be deported, not imprisoned. I think that would cost us less.


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## antagon (Apr 5, 2010)

offer an annual renewable visa for $2500/year to residents w/o visas, and who could identify themselves.  require that they file taxes and show proof of as much when they renew.  there's some specifics with tax, which would make their status different, but that's the long version.

trust fund the revenues (up to a cap) for border protection and enforcement using double fences across the southern border (for starters).  create an IRS taskforce to see about fiscal compliance with employers and individuals; create an FBI taskforce on the criminal compliance end.

strip visas from felons; deport all non-citizens who commit felonies or or who dont have a visa.

it is my personal impression that the us border patrol/border agency are slackers and their organization is set up wrong.  dissolve.

empower the coasties to cover the border at sea and on land.

if there's money over the cap, add it to tax revenues.

this covers some of the gaps in the system as it stands.  it will fund itself: a problem with lots of other ideas that ive read here, and makes few waves in the wider economy.

there's no stopping immigration to a place like the US.  there are people who could pay for the privilege, and it is about time the government start earning its keep like the rest of us.  its time immigrants start paying their dues like the rest of us.


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## antagon (Apr 5, 2010)

Founder said:


> *HERE IS THE SOLUTION...*
> 
> 1.  Increase our birthrate of the Best and Brightest among us, and stop subsidizing the birthrate of our worst and dumbest which we do in hundreds of ways, and surely STOP subsidizing the birthrate of the worst and dumbest in loser nations.
> 
> ...



solutions of an imbecile, each and severally.


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## Father Time (Apr 5, 2010)

antagon said:


> Founder said:
> 
> 
> > *HERE IS THE SOLUTION...*
> ...



Seriously hard labor should not even be considered a punishment for such things.

And what the hell does she mean by subsidizing the birthrate of other nations? Does she think we pay other nations to grow their populations. It sounds like eugenics.


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## antagon (Apr 5, 2010)

Father Time said:


> antagon said:
> 
> 
> > Founder said:
> ...



this is the kind of shit that cripples a democratic society's ability to deal with real issues.


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## Father Time (Apr 5, 2010)

There will always be stupid suggestions and insane ideas. This is what happens when you have free speech and a large population (not that I'd change either one of those).


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## Polk (Apr 5, 2010)

Meister said:


> Polk said:
> 
> 
> > He never mentioned 20 years in the video. Also, if you'd have actually paid attention to all of his comments, instead of just hacking up a single small clip, he's said that he'd prefer a single-payer system if he was starting from scratch.
> ...



I am being honest. He didn't say it. You can keep claiming it, but that's not going to make it true.


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## Polk (Apr 5, 2010)

Immanuel said:


> Polk said:
> 
> 
> > He never mentioned 20 years in the video. Also, if you'd have actually paid attention to all of his comments, instead of just hacking up a single small clip, he's said that he'd prefer a single-payer system if he was starting from scratch.
> ...



This is what happens when you take different video clips and splice them together. You completely lose the context. Look at the paragraph the 20 years comment is made in, according to your own source:

"But I dont think were going to be able to eliminate employer coverage immediately. Theres going to be potentially some transition process. I can envision a decade out or fifteen years out or twenty years out."

That's not saying there is going to be single-payer in twenty years. That's saying there will not be employer-based coverage in twenty years.


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## Immanuel (Apr 5, 2010)

Polk said:


> Immanuel said:
> 
> 
> > Polk said:
> ...



You are so full of shit.  You of all people would stoop to lying in that manner?

Don't worry, anyone that cares to listen to that clip will hear it and your deception will be known.

Immie


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## Polk (Apr 5, 2010)

Immanuel said:


> Polk said:
> 
> 
> > Immanuel said:
> ...



I haven't attempted to deceive anyone. It's not my fault that you're ignorant enough to think that video is one continuous clip. The video is pretty clearly from two separate events and while he's talking about the same broader topic, he's referring to specific details in each. You (and the creator of the webpage you linked to) try to claim that he's talking about the same thing in both clips, but it's clear, even from the transcripts they posted, that he's not.


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## Immanuel (Apr 5, 2010)

Polk said:


> Immanuel said:
> 
> 
> > Polk said:
> ...



One minute mark proves you are a liar.  No one said it was a continuous clip. Liar.

Immie


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## Polk (Apr 5, 2010)

Immanuel said:


> Polk said:
> 
> 
> > Immanuel said:
> ...



Throw a fit and call me a liar all you want, but you still have failed to support your claim. The one minute mark of the video shows him saying twenty years in reference to the breakdown of employer-based coverage, not about implementing single payer (which is what you claimed).


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## Immanuel (Apr 5, 2010)

Polk said:


> Immanuel said:
> 
> 
> > Polk said:
> ...



And breakdown of employer based coverage doesn't mean implementing Universal Health Care?  Maybe you are not a liar, you are just stupid.

He has said it several times.  He wants Universal Health Care.  He'd prefer it was before the end of his first term.  But he's smart enough to know that won't happen.  We're in phase one of his plan now.  The ultimate goal, 15 -20 years down the road is Universal Health Care.  He could not have said it any plainer than that.

Immie


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## Polk (Apr 5, 2010)

Immanuel said:


> Polk said:
> 
> 
> > Immanuel said:
> ...



No, it doesn't. The breakdown of employer-based coverage can mean everyone being dumped into the individual market. In effect, that's what the health care bill is preparing for. For years, the number of people with employer-provided insurance has been decreasing. The result is more and more people in the individual pool. The new law creates some basic rules of the road to keep insurance companies from running over them. If Obama really wanted single-payer, he wouldn't have done anything, because the collapse of the existing employer-provided system would have created single-payer by attrition (since, as more and more people lacked insurance, there would be increased demand for direct provision).


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## Immanuel (Apr 5, 2010)

Polk said:


> Immanuel said:
> 
> 
> > Polk said:
> ...



He has said it several times. He wants Universal Health Care. He'd prefer it was before the end of his first term. But he's smart enough to know that won't happen. We're in phase one of his plan now. The ultimate goal, 15 -20 years down the road is Universal Health Care. He could not have said it any plainer than that

Deny it all you want, but your messiah has said it enough that it is obvious what he wants.

Immie


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## José (Apr 6, 2010)

> Originally posted by *antagon*
> solutions of an imbecile, each and severally.


----------



## José (Apr 6, 2010)

> Originally posted by *Father Time*
> Seriously hard labor should not even be considered a punishment for such things.


----------



## José (Apr 6, 2010)

Founder is *AUTHORITARIAN TO THE CORE*. An individual with a Hitleresque mindset.

He's willing to destroy America as the democratic, open society it is today and turn it into a police state to solve the immigration issue. A police state who throws people in jail with hard labor for trespassing a national border looking for work. 

The warped, over the top patriotism of these clowns has blinded them to the point they can't even distinguish the difference between America and a stalinist state like North Korea anymore (Stalinist states DO jail people for years for crossing their borders illegaly).

Thank God there are still *REAL AMERICAN PATRIOTS* like antagon and Father Time who truly understand the *RIGHT REASONS* to appreciate America as a country (its core values) and will never allow these *PSEUDO AMERICAN PATRIOTS*, these nazi zombies disguised as patriots to destroy America in order to "save her" from illegal immigration.


----------



## José (Apr 6, 2010)

> Originally posted by *silkyeggsalad*
> I agree. It does cost tax dollars. I'd prefer our tax dollars in relation to illegal immigration be spent on enforcement, rather than providing social services or incarceration.
> 
> I can't wrap my head around why we imprison illegal immigrants instead of deporting them. I can see it for felony charges--but I think the numbers in the cited study are unreliable--but much of our prison population is for non-violent crimes and I have no reason to believe that ratio doesn't translate to the illegal immigrant population as well. Illegal immigrants arrested for non-violent crimes should be deported, not imprisoned. I think that would cost us less.



Sorry people. I forgot to include silkyeggsalad.

Here's another wonderful example of a *REAL AMERICAN PATRIOT* who's not willing to the turn the american open society into a concentration camp in order to "protect it" from illegal imigration.


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## José (Apr 6, 2010)

Founder is a *PHONY* because you cannot love a country whose core values you simply don't understand or do not care to preserve.


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## Angelhair (Apr 6, 2010)

_We can only preserve those values if we FOLLOW OUR LAWS. It seems that in the past years we have not followed our own laws when it comes to illegal entry.  We are being intimidated by the pro-illegal advocates that make it their profession to defend that which is not defendable.  We have the spanish media advocating illegal entry and supplying information to protect those who are here without the permission of the USA.  It seems we have become a world joke in more ways than one._


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## Foxfyre (Apr 6, 2010)

Jose, thank you for pulling the thread back on topic.

(Healthcare is an important topic but there are plenty of threads to battle that out guys.  It is ipertinent to this thread only as it is affected by illegal immigration.)

But Jose, why are any members 'phony' because they are angry about people thumbing their noses at our laws and taking advantage of American generosity and compassion without assuming any of the responsibility for that?

There is room to debate what should be done about that, and obviously we are not all in agreement exactly what should be done in every case.  But that is why there are national debates.

Certainly the USA is less 'dranconian' in how they treat their legals than are the countries from which most of those illegals come.  And that is certainly why we have so many illegals.

I for one don't think it is the least bit 'phony' to object to that.

So I'll ask again.  What should we do, and I thank those who have responded so far whether or not we agree with them.

Father Time for instance, you say imprisonment and hard labor is excessive for entering the country illegally.  I would agree but I don't know of any state that is imprisoning people just because they are here illegally.

So what do you think we should do with illegal immigrants?

(I'm travelling right now so can log in only intermittently, but will get back to all responses soon.)


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## José (Apr 6, 2010)

> Originally posted by *Foxfyre*
> But Jose, why are any members 'phony' because they are angry about people thumbing their noses at our laws and taking advantage of American generosity and compassion without assuming any of the responsibility for that?



Should illegal anglo settlers entering the province of California or Tejas illegaly in the 19th century be shot or kept in prison with hard labor for years in Mexico City?

Hell no!! That would have been a cruel punishment, absolutely disproportionate to their infraction even if we take into consideration that 19th century Mexico was far from being the open society America is today.

They should have been arrested and sent back to the states.

Get this through your heads, people. Whether we're talking about 19th century Mexico or 21th century America shooting and jailing illegal immigrants for years is just wrong. And democratic states, IN PARTICULAR, don't kill of jail foreign civilians for illegal entry. 

This often results in bigger immigration problems as Foxfyre rightly pointed out but what can they do??

This is the price they have to pay for being open, democratic societies instead of totalitarian states.

But I'll give you this, Foxfyre:

I shouldn't be so hard on people like Founder because their totalitarian proposals ( *SHOOT THEM*, *JAIL THEM*, etc etc...) are the direct result of years and years of accumulated frustration with the US government's dereliction of duty..

So they take out their frustrations on illegal immigrants following the basic human instinct of moving from poorer to wealthier parts of the world.

Taking out one's frustrations on the weakest link is one of the nastiest things people can do but it is absolutely human. 

Everybody has already done that *AT LEAST* once in his/her life so no one can cast the first stone


----------



## José (Apr 6, 2010)

> Originally posted by *Angelhair*
> We can only preserve those values if we FOLLOW OUR LAWS. It seems that in the past years we have not followed our own laws when it comes to illegal entry.



Exactly, Angel. And this is one of the tragic results of this huge dereliction of duty on the part of the American government:

This failure to follow its own laws leads many american citizens to accumulate massive levels of frustration that often explode in bursts of authoritarian and even homicidal proposals to reduce illegal immigration.


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## Samson (Apr 6, 2010)

Father Time said:


> Seriously hard labor should not even be considered a punishment for such things.
> 
> And what the hell does she mean by subsidizing the birthrate of other nations? Does she think we pay other nations to grow their populations. It sounds like eugenics.



True: I really cannot see that the threat of being given room and board to wack weeds all day in Houston during July would be much different than their fate if they did NOT get caught.

*But something* needs to be done.

Enforcing exitsting Laws seems like it would be a logical starting point: Fining Employers to compensate for detainment and deportation costs of Illegal Hires, and also punitive measures against Mexico designed to decrease government corruption. 

Its astonishing to me that we invade corrupt governments on the other side of the planet, but when they're our neighbors, we sign Free Trade Agreements with them.


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## José (Apr 6, 2010)

See what I mean, people??

Samson's post is a perfect example of the accumulated frustration leading to irrational paroxisms of violence against illegal immigrants and unjust retaliatory measures against neighboring countries I talked about in my previous post:

"*My country's immigration services don't do what I pay them to do so I'm gonna start lashing out at neighboring countries for not keeping their poor citizens inside their borders just like good, old East Germany used to do with its Berlin Wall.*"  

"*America spent decades accusing comunist countries in Eastern Europe of keeping their citizens inside their borders by brute force but I want Mexico to do just that so that America's immigration problem can be solved.*"

"*Mexico is under no obligation to double as America's Border Patrol. 

No country in the world, for that matter, is under any obligation to serve as their neighbor's Border Patrol but my unbelievably high levels of frustration with my country's inaction regarding illegal immigration prevent me from thinking properly about this issue.*"


----------



## antagon (Apr 6, 2010)

Foxfyre said:


> Jose, thank you for pulling the thread back on topic.
> 
> (Healthcare is an important topic but there are plenty of threads to battle that out guys.  It is ipertinent to this thread only as it is affected by illegal immigration.)
> 
> ...



this is a great thread, fox, and you're doing a good job moderating it.

i think where phony comes in is that some solutions compromise what is great about our society to affect immigration reform.  americans are not like people like founder.  that is some nazi shit.  while there are americans who might believe that those are viable solutions, or who are in fact nazis, that they wave the american flag ahead of _their_ ideals is a misrepresentation of the ideals the country was founded on.  give us your poor...

hitler had the sense to create a symbol of his bullshit independent from the german flag.

back to business, the economic issues raised by illegal immigration are the biggest for me.  we have a 10% unemployment rate with 5-10 million workers not accounted for.  we run budget deficits with 5-10 million households not reporting.  its my take that we need to account for the earnings that immigrants are making in the way of tax and fee-based visas.  

to add to what a few have said recently, not only does there need to be enforcement of existing laws, but these laws need to be more enforceable.  Pandemic illegal immigration has no solutions outside of cutting nazis loose on their own recognizance.  if the issue is reduced to an epidemic issue, where non-compliance is an exception rather than the rule, we could begin to look at enforcement reasonably.

next, when people want your widgets en masse, you sell them at a competitive price.  the government gives away visas and citizenship for at or around the cost of processing them, however, american citizenship is one of the most coveted widgets in the world.  it will guarantee that your kids will likely make $750k or so in their lifetime in pursuit of the american dream.  if they play their cards right they can make $750,000,000 or $7,500,000,000 in as much time.  i suggested here that this privilege come at a fee, and that the greedy bastards at the IRS chase it down.

writing this, i wonder if there is room for marketized trading of visas issued by the government, and traded among private agencies on an exchange and on the street to the immigrants themselves.  such a system would allow the government to allocate a rate and volume of legal immigration, while a market determines the price.


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## Samson (Apr 6, 2010)

José;2180315 said:
			
		

> See what I mean, people??
> 
> Samson's post is a perfect example of the accumulated frustration leading to irrational paroxisms of violence against i....
> 
> No country in the world, for that matter, is under any obligation to serve as their neighbor's Border Patrol but my unbelievably high levels of frustration with my country's inaction regarding illegal immigration prevent me from thinking properly about this issue.[/B]"



Actually, I didn't say anything about violence toward illegal hires, or Mexico's "obligation to serve as their neighbor's Border Patrol."

I did say that the levels of Mexican Government Corruption are high enough to be compared with Saddam's Iraq, and that granting Free Trade Agreements with Mexico seems more than a little duplicious.


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## Immanuel (Apr 6, 2010)

Foxfyre said:


> Jose, thank you for pulling the thread back on topic.
> 
> (Healthcare is an important topic but there are plenty of threads to battle that out guys.  It is ipertinent to this thread only as it is affected by illegal immigration.)



My apologies!  I had forgotten what thread I was on. 

Immie


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## antagon (Apr 6, 2010)

i'd say that free trade is a good policy when immigration is considered.  what better a hand up mexico's ass than that?  diplomacy will never be a do this or else game, notwithstanding the hopes of neoconservatives, but affected with trade-offs, we probably could see mexico looking to empower their economy through their own industriousness on their own land, than through their industriousness on our land and money-gram.

no better example than the clinton and bush NAFTA policies and the latter's precipitation of increased border-town corruption and failed legal enterprise for mexico and the US.


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## Terral (Apr 6, 2010)

Hi Jose:



			
				José;2179375 said:
			
		

> Thank God there are still *REAL AMERICAN PATRIOTS* like antagon and Father Time who truly understand the *RIGHT REASONS* to appreciate America as a country (its core values) and will never allow these *PSEUDO AMERICAN PATRIOTS*, these nazi zombies disguised as patriots to destroy America in order to "save her" from illegal immigration.



Get real, Jose. There is no such thing as 'illegal immigration.' Jose is using Open Border Lobby Lingo to camouflage his Open Border Lobby Disinformation Propaganda in favor of the Illegal Alien Invasion of this once-great nation. "Immigration" is what 'legal' immigrants do in order to come into the USA through the 'front door.' Illegal Alien Foreign Nationals come here in the middle of the night to steal identities and JOBS from U.S. Citizens, which has NOTHING whatsoever to do with 'immigration.' Illegal Alien Foreign Nationals are 'lawbreakers' the moment they enter the USA through the back door. 

Illegal Alien Foreign Nationals are 'lawbreakers' in the moment they falsify documentation in order to obtain the appearance of 'legal working status.' Illegal Alien Foreign Nationals are 'lawbreakers' in the instant they take a JOB from a real American Citizen, which only works to take bread out of the mouths of American Children already living in poverty. Illegal Alien Foreign Nationals are 'lawbreakers' in the moment they join the Obama Illegal Alien Labor Pool that displaces millions and millions and millions of real U.S. Citizens from JOBS. Illegal Alien Foreign Nationals kill 25 U.S. Citizens EVERY DAMNED DAY (12 by murder), because our corrupt Congress and Obama Administration refuse to enforce perfectly good Immigration and Employment Laws already on the books. That means the USA is willing to sacrifice 10,000 real U.S. Citizens every year in order to feed the corporate/contractor appetite for cheap illegal labor, so unscrupulous corporations and contractors can undercut the competition. 

Do not try to convince anyone that Illegal Alien Foreign Nationals are simply coming to the USA 'illegally' to work, when they bring diseases and poverty and lawlessness that are only destroying the USA as we knew it. If your Illegal Alien Foreign Nationals (citizens of other countries) really wanted to enter the USA to 'work,' they would come through the front door like 2 Million Foreign Nationals that come to America and do things right. 

Everyone hiring Illegal Alien Foreign Nationals should be thrown into prison 'and' have their business licenses removed FOR LIFE. Then the Illegal Aliens would find their own way back home ...

GL,

Terral


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## Angelhair (Apr 6, 2010)

_Tsk, tsk, tsk - you people just don't get the mentality of latin countries. Trust me, they will never rise above their plight.  They have not been able to do it in all the years of their existence they will not do it now - not with the help of the USA - not without![/I]_


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## José (Apr 6, 2010)

> Originally posted by *Samson*
> Actually, I didn't say anything about violence toward illegal hires, or Mexico's "obligation to serve as their neighbor's Border Patrol."
> 
> I did say that the levels of Mexican Government Corruption are high enough to be compared with Saddam's Iraq, and that granting Free Trade Agreements with Mexico seems more than a little duplicious.



I was unjust with you, indeed, Samson, cuz you didn't say anything about blackmailing Mexico into serving as America's Border Patrol (as an old timer, I've seen dozens of posters saying just that but not you).

Your plan would be something along these lines:

"*Punitive measures against Mexico designed to decrease government corruption*" would lead to Mexico's development and the reduction of illegal immigrants entering the US.

Your proposal would still be punishing a neighboring country for America's own dereliction of duty and besides, it would be totally ineffective.

The gap between American and Mexican wages is so huge that even if Mexico magically become the less corrupt nation in world overnight poor Mexicans would still flock to the US.


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## José (Apr 6, 2010)

> Originally posted by *Terral*
> Get real, Jose. There is no such thing as 'illegal immigration.' Jose is using Open Border Lobby Lingo to camouflage his Open Border Lobby Disinformation Propaganda in favor of the Illegal Alien Invasion of this once-great nation. "Immigration" is what 'legal' immigrants do in order to come into the USA through the 'front door.' Illegal Alien Foreign Nationals come here in the middle of the night to steal identities and JOBS from U.S. Citizens, which has NOTHING whatsoever to do with 'immigration.' Illegal Alien Foreign Nationals are 'lawbreakers' the moment they enter the USA through the back door.
> 
> Illegal Alien Foreign Nationals are 'lawbreakers' in the moment they falsify documentation in order to obtain the appearance of 'legal working status.' Illegal Alien Foreign Nationals are 'lawbreakers' in the instant they take a JOB from a real American Citizen, which only works to take bread out of the mouths of American Children already living in poverty. Illegal Alien Foreign Nationals are 'lawbreakers' in the moment they join the Obama Illegal Alien Labor Pool that displaces millions and millions and millions of real U.S. Citizens from JOBS. Illegal Alien Foreign Nationals kill 25 U.S. Citizens EVERY DAMNED DAY (12 by murder), because our corrupt Congress and Obama Administration refuse to enforce perfectly good Immigration and Employment Laws already on the books. That means the USA is willing to sacrifice 10,000 real U.S. Citizens every year in order to feed the corporate/contractor desire for cheap illegal labor, so unscrupulous corporations and contractors can undercut the competition.
> ...



Illegal aliens, Terral, are following the same basic human instinct your ancestors did when they immigrated to America without the permission of the native amerindians who inhabited the region:

The instinct to move to a place where they think they can prosper.

So you wouldn't even be an American today, Terral, if your ancestors didn't behave JUST LIKE illegal mexicans today.

This is not a valid reason to let illegal mexicans stay in the US. The American government has the right to send them back to their places of origin just like Amerindians tried to do with YOUR ILLEGAL ANCESTORS, Terral.

*BUT IT IS A VALID REASON TO TREAT THEM HUMANELY!!

IT IS A VALID REASON NOT TO SHOOT THEM, NOT TO THROW THEM IN JAIL FOR YEARS!!

IT IS A VALID REASON TO ARREST THEM AND SEND THEM BACK TO THEIR PLACES OF ORIGIN WITH ALL THE DIGNITY AND RESPECT THAT A HUMAN BEING WHO TRIED TO PROVIDE FOR HIS FAMILY BY PERFORMING THE TASKS OF A PLUMBER, CONSTRUCTION WORKER OR GARDENER DESERVES!!*


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## José (Apr 6, 2010)

People...

I have strong reasons to believe that I have just inflicted on Terral what can be called the most thorough beatdown in the History of the *US Message Board*.

Now I'm even feeling bad for the guy : (


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## antagon (Apr 6, 2010)

don't play yourself, doggy, ive seen worse


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## Terral (Apr 6, 2010)

Hi Jose:



			
				José;2180789 said:
			
		

> Illegal aliens, Terral, are following the same basic human instinct your ancestors did when they immigrated to America without the permission of the native amerindians who inhabited the region:


Bullony!!! Your Open Border Lobby Stupidity will never work on me, Jose. The USA has 'front door' (immigration) and a 'back door' (illegal alien) and 20 Million Goddamned Illegal Aliens are running around loose EVERYWHERE stealing identities and JOBS from U.S. Citizens. Jose is always trying to skew the line between 'legal' immigration and 'illegal' alien foreign nationals coming here in the middle of the night.

If you really want to make a difference in the Illegal Alien Invasion Debate, then try to convince Illegal Aliens to GO HOME and come back through the front door. Everything else out of your mouth is pandering to Illegal Aliens and their unscrupulous employers picking around U.S. Citizens in favor or their Illegal Alien Labor Pool ...

GL,

Terral


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## Terral (Apr 6, 2010)

Hi Jose:



			
				José;2180797 said:
			
		

> People... I have strong reasons to believe that I have just inflicted on Terral what can be called the most thorough beatdown in the History of the *US Message Board*.
> 
> Now I'm even feeling bad for the guy : (



Bullony! Jose is on the *'wrong' side* of this Illegal Alien Invasion Debate, but he is high on his own Open Border Lobby Kool-aid. This idiot tries to justify the killing of 25 U.S. Citizens every day by Illegal Aliens, and then deludes himself into believing he stands on the moral high ground cuckoo.

GL,

Terral


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## antagon (Apr 6, 2010)

Terral said:


> Hi Jose:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



youve got to give it to 'em T.  the running around stealing jobs and identities, killing and robbing is a very _old_ american immigrant tradition.


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## Founder (Apr 6, 2010)

*Might Makes Right. It Always Has And It Always Will! 

And there is absolutely nothing whatsoever anyone can do about it. It is the entire law of the Universe, including God's fundamental law. Why is God, God? Because he has the might and the force to enforce it. 

Even people who whine about it being unfair, are using THEIR form of might to counter other people's might. Whining is using force just like a fist is using force. No difference. Playing the victim is using a kind of force to counter other force. Invoking "fairness" is just another type of force to get your way. 

Illegals are using force to break the law and come here, never mind what their reason is for doing so. Of course their first task is to disarm the people who are already here so they will not throw them out, so they play every trick in the book to FORCE us to let them stay. They bribe, they lie, they get pregnant to create anchor babies, and so on. 

Plus they depend on traitorous people already here who HATE this country to come to their aid and support. Everyone who aids abets, or supports in any way these criminal lawbreakers HATES America and the rest of us, and should be arrested, stripped of their citizenship and deported along with the illegals. 

There are even churches here, we all know who they are, who are intent on using these illegals to increase their numbers in order to be able to use that numbers MIGHT to overwhelm the other religions they disagree with. 

SO CUT IT WITH THE SOB-SISTER APPEALS. THEY ARE ALL SELF-SERVING MEANS OF PUSHING PARTICULAR SELFISH AGENDAS.....*


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## Ravi (Apr 6, 2010)

Angelhair said:


> _Tsk, tsk, tsk - you people just don't get the mentality of latin countries. Trust me, they will never rise above their plight.  They have not been able to do it in all the years of their existence they will not do it now - not with the help of the USA - not without![/I]_


_Racist_


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## Angelhair (Apr 6, 2010)

_If caring about the country I was born in makes me a racist - go for it.  You are not insulting me as I know I am NOT a racist by ANY standards.  The word does not intimidate me or insult me.....so go for it.  I have heard worse criticisim about the USA by foreigners that would leave you ice cold. I don't consider them racists - just exercing their right to opine and to criticize!_


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## José (Apr 6, 2010)

Not racist, just a bit incoherent...

People who don't believe Latin American countries will ever become developed nations should refrain from saying things like:

"*Mexicans should stay in Mexico and work hard to make a decent country out of it.*"


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## José (Apr 6, 2010)

Even people who do believe Latin America has the potential to become a good place to live should avoid saying this kind of things because it shows a *CALLOUS DISREGARD* for the suffering and material deprivations of others:

"*Stay in Mexico, live in poverty, endure the terrible pain of seeing your kids asking for foods you cannot buy so that your great-grandchildren can reap the rewards of all the suffering you went through...*"

This is lack of compassion at best and mockery at worst... A better line of reasoning would be:

"*America is not and CANNOT be the Mother Teresa of the world.. 

It cannot shelter ALL your huddled masses yearning to breathe free despite what Lady Liberty says.

World poverty does not trump the right of America to fully regulate the human flow that goes through its borders like any other nation in the world*"

That's all... I just made a solid defence of America's right to deport illegal immigrants without mocking the ordeal of poor Mexicans.


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## Father Time (Apr 6, 2010)

Founder said:


> *Might Makes Right. It Always Has And It Always Will!
> 
> And there is absolutely nothing whatsoever anyone can do about it. It is the entire law of the Universe, including God's fundamental law. Why is God, God? Because he has the might and the force to enforce it.
> 
> ...



I call Poe's law on this.

There's no way anyone can seriously believe this drivel.


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## Founder (Apr 6, 2010)

Father Time said:


> Founder said:
> 
> 
> > *Might Makes Right. It Always Has And It Always Will!
> ...



*Quite the contrary. Everyone believes this. It is just that some lie about their true feelings and true understandings because they are high on the Jim Jones Kool Aid of Political Correctness. *


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## antagon (Apr 6, 2010)

what are you high on?


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## Polk (Apr 6, 2010)

Immanuel said:


> Polk said:
> 
> 
> > Immanuel said:
> ...



If he's said it so many times, surely you can find at least one example. That you can't just goes to show you're full of shit.


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## Meister (Apr 6, 2010)

Polk said:


> Immanuel said:
> 
> 
> > Polk said:
> ...


watch it and weep, Polk
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p-bY92mcOdk]YouTube - SHOCK UNCOVERED: Obama IN HIS OWN WORDS saying His Health Care Plan will ELIMINATE private insurance[/ame]


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## antagon (Apr 6, 2010)

they spent all day yesterday tugging at that video.


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## José (Apr 6, 2010)

Founder's first post was at least intelligible. Foxfyre said his proposals "*seemed a bit on the extreme side*" (long term jail sentences with hard labor etc, etc...), I said some of them were the product of a totalitarian mind but at least his ideas seemed to have been conceived by a sane mind.

Now his posts have degenerated into hallucinations about illegals wanting to disarm the american people and using force to come to the US and as the ramblings of any lunatic are now as useful as used toilet paper.


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## Father Time (Apr 6, 2010)

Founder said:


> Father Time said:
> 
> 
> > Founder said:
> ...



I can guarantee that not all people believe in God, the idea that might makes right, or the idea that whining equals force and is akin to punching someone.

I still say it's an act.


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## Polk (Apr 6, 2010)

Meister said:


> Polk said:
> 
> 
> > Immanuel said:
> ...



Same video Immanuel posted, which takes comments on two separate aspects (employer-based coverage and public option) and editing the video to twist what's being said. The editor of the video claims the President "admitt[ed] his plan will eliminate private insurance", and attempts to support that claim by playing video of the President talking about transitioning away from the link between insurance and employment over the next twenty years.  Notice the flaw? Employer-based insurance does not equal private insurance. There is private insurance beyond employer based insurance.


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