# Fourth of July: What does it mean to an American Muslim



## Sunni Man (Jul 3, 2011)

By Imam Johari Abdul-Malik

The Fourth of July has many meanings to this American Muslim.  It is both a source of pride, disappointment of a dream deferred and the hope of fulfillment of a universal promise of freedom - Independence - and equality for all.  History reminds us that on July 4th 1187 Sulahudeen Ayoubi liberated Jerusalem from the Crusaders and invited the expelled Jewish families to return to their homes in the Holy Land.


The Fourth of July brings to mind the Muslims who fought in the revolutionary war, such as Yusuf Ben Ali, also known as Joseph (Benenhali) Benhaley.  His name appeared in the 1790 census of Sumter County, SC or Bampett Muhamed who was a Corporal in the Revolutionary Army or Sergeant Francis Saba, sergeant and Fifer Joseph Saba who served with the Continental Troops.

Let us not forget that in 1777 Morocco, A Muslim country, was the first to recognize the United States as an independent nation. Independence Day reminds me that I am freer to practice Islam in America than in most so-called Muslim countries.  America continues to be a beacon of freedom for the people of Tunisia, Egypt, Libya, Ivory Coast, Yemen and Syria.

As an American Muslim I cant help but wonder if perhaps when framing the US Constitution that Jefferson's Quran (The one that Congressman Keith Ellison was sworn into office on) gave reinforcement to the universal ideal of freedom of religion as a God given right from Sharia.

Surah 2, Verse 256:

&#1604;&#1614;&#1575; &#1573;&#1616;&#1603;&#1618;&#1585;&#1614;&#1575;&#1607;&#1614; &#1601;&#1616;&#1610; &#1575;&#1604;&#1583;&#1616;&#1617;&#1610;&#1606;&#1616; &#1602;&#1614;&#1583; &#1578;&#1614;&#1617;&#1576;&#1614;&#1610;&#1614;&#1617;&#1606;&#1614; &#1575;&#1604;&#1585;&#1615;&#1617;&#1588;&#1618;&#1583;&#1615; &#1605;&#1616;&#1606;&#1614; &#1575;&#1604;&#1618;&#1594;&#1614;&#1610;&#1616;&#1617; &#1601;&#1614;&#1605;&#1614;&#1606; &#1610;&#1614;&#1603;&#1618;&#1601;&#1615;&#1585;&#1618; &#1576;&#1616;&#1575;&#1604;&#1591;&#1614;&#1617;&#1575;&#1594;&#1615;&#1608;&#1578;&#1616; &#1608;&#1614;&#1610;&#1615;&#1572;&#1618;&#1605;&#1616;&#1606; &#1576;&#1616;&#1575;&#1604;&#1604;&#1614;&#1617;&#1607;&#1616; &#1601;&#1614;&#1602;&#1614;&#1583;&#1616; &#1575;&#1587;&#1618;&#1578;&#1614;&#1605;&#1618;&#1587;&#1614;&#1603;&#1614; &#1576;&#1616;&#1575;&#1604;&#1618;&#1593;&#1615;&#1585;&#1618;&#1608;&#1614;&#1577;&#1616; &#1575;&#1604;&#1618;&#1608;&#1615;&#1579;&#1618;&#1602;&#1614;&#1609;&#1648; &#1604;&#1614;&#1575; &#1575;&#1606;&#1601;&#1616;&#1589;&#1614;&#1575;&#1605;&#1614; &#1604;&#1614;&#1607;&#1614;&#1575; &#1608;&#1614;&#1575;&#1604;&#1604;&#1614;&#1617;&#1607;&#1615; &#1587;&#1614;&#1605;&#1616;&#1610;&#1593;&#1612; &#1593;&#1614;&#1604;&#1616;&#1610;&#1605;&#1612;

Translation:   "Let there be no compulsion in religion: (Freedom of religion) Truth stands out clear from Error..."


Perhaps James Madison while studying the life of the Prophet Muhammad saw where he set forth in 622 the Treaty of Medina which proclaimed; the security of God is equal for all groups (including Jews), the people of other faiths have equal political and cultural rights as Muslims and that they will have autonomy and freedom of religion.

But America has been since her inception a mixed bag of contradictions just like each of us.  She is guided by universal principles yet all to often falling victim to human frailties, creating two Americas, one of discrimination and one of freedom.  While holding Africans in bondage proclaiming, .....all men are created equal. Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr reminds us, the arc of the moral universe is long, but it bends towards justice. and the moral arc of America long and it bends toward freedom.

Fredrick Douglas in his damning yet hopeful critique delivered on July 5th, 1852 in Rochester, NY The Meaning of July 4th for the Negro.  Douglas reminds us of the contradictions between the ideals and the reality of The Republic.  Although, the toll of enslavement on the African remains unmeasured, slavery is over.

As a descendant of enslaved Africans, many of whom were Muslim, I recall that in over two hundred years of slavery Islam was systematically removed from my people until emancipation in1865.  In the post Malcolm X era (1965); after one hundred years of freedom, Islam is among the fastest growing traditional religions in America.  Faith flourishes in freedom. 

Looking from time of her conception with all of her noble ideals and imperfections as an American Muslim I see hope in America.  Yet our nation like the soul of man, can be the worst of creatures and those who have faith and follow it with deeds of righteousness they are the best of creatures (Quran 98:7)   

&#1573;&#1616;&#1606;&#1614;&#1617; &#1575;&#1604;&#1614;&#1617;&#1584;&#1616;&#1610;&#1606;&#1614; &#1570;&#1605;&#1614;&#1606;&#1615;&#1608;&#1575; &#1608;&#1614;&#1593;&#1614;&#1605;&#1616;&#1604;&#1615;&#1608;&#1575; &#1575;&#1604;&#1589;&#1614;&#1617;&#1575;&#1604;&#1616;&#1581;&#1614;&#1575;&#1578;&#1616; &#1571;&#1615;&#1608;&#1604;&#1614;&#1648;&#1574;&#1616;&#1603;&#1614; &#1607;&#1615;&#1605;&#1618; &#1582;&#1614;&#1610;&#1618;&#1585;&#1615; &#1575;&#1604;&#1618;&#1576;&#1614;&#1585;


America remains a land where people can reinvent themselves.  With all of her contractions then and now she remains the greatest nation on earth, not because of her wealth, military might or technological achievements but because of her universal embrace of freedom.


Happy Birthday America - Keep on growing.

Youre not getting older youre getting better!


Imam Johari Abdul-Malik is the Director of Outreach at the Dar Al Hijrah Islamic Center in Falls Church, Virginia.

The Fourth of July: What does it mean to an American Muslim? - Guest Voices - The Washington Post


----------



## Moonglow (Jul 3, 2011)

Muslims also has black African Muslim and non-Muslim slaves and Muslims bought and sold Muslim slaves.


----------



## Sunni Man (Jul 3, 2011)

So what is your point?

 Both George Washington and Thomas Jefferson owned, bought and sold slaves.

 But should be remembered as two of our Founding Fathers on this 4th of July

 Not as slave traders


----------



## strollingbones (Jul 3, 2011)

happy 4th sunni...have a great one!


----------



## SW2SILVER (Jul 3, 2011)

Sunni Man likes being the whipping boy. Not sure if that's good or bad. So, what's Christmas mean to a Muslim? Or Arbor day, or  Guy Fawkes day? Common boy-o. Ya got all the answers we could ever want from a Muslim. Well, except for all those pesky ones, those nagging little tiny ones.  Ones I won't bother with.  Well, how about this: What separates Islam from all the other  religious fantasies we human beings indulge in? Pure imaginative FICTION. Makes beautiful imagery, ever so evocative.  A beautiful lie is preferable to an ugly truth. &#8220;There is no god but god.&#8221; They got the first part right.


----------



## Sunni Man (Jul 3, 2011)

strollingbones said:


> happy 4th sunni...have a great one!



 Happy Fourth of July to you Bones

 Got the grill cleaned up and ready for BBQ

( Beef only, no pork )


----------



## whitehall (Jul 3, 2011)

If you quit whining about your ethnic origin Sunny you might appreciate America more. Every nation in the world has been enslaved at one time or another. Muslems sold Black natives to white slave traders. The English starved the Irish during the potato famine and when the poor starved wretches arrived in America they drafted them into the army to be used as cannon fodder. Muslems need to address the tyranny of modern Shria law and the carnage of the jihad before they start lecturing about freedom on the 4th of July.


----------



## Zander (Jul 3, 2011)

Who gives a fuck?


----------



## Sunni Man (Jul 3, 2011)

whitehall said:


> If you quit whining about your ethnic origin Sunny you might appreciate America more. Every nation in the world has been enslaved at one time or another. Muslems sold Black natives to white slave traders. The English starved the Irish during the potato famine and when the poor starved wretches arrived in America they drafted them into the army to be used as cannon fodder. Muslems need to address the tyranny of modern Shria law and the carnage of the jihad before they start lecturing about freedom on the 4th of July.



 What ethnic origin do you think that I represent?

 As an American citizen it is my right and freedom to talk about 4 July.

 And to celebrate it or critique it as I see fit.


----------



## whitehall (Jul 3, 2011)

Sunni Man said:


> whitehall said:
> 
> 
> > If you quit whining about your ethnic origin Sunny you might appreciate America more. Every nation in the world has been enslaved at one time or another. Muslems sold Black natives to white slave traders. The English starved the Irish during the potato famine and when the poor starved wretches arrived in America they drafted them into the army to be used as cannon fodder. Muslems need to address the tyranny of modern Shria law and the carnage of the jihad before they start lecturing about freedom on the 4th of July.
> ...



You got a right to say it and I got a right to say you are full of crap.


----------



## Toronado3800 (Jul 3, 2011)

Sunni Man said:


> whitehall said:
> 
> 
> > If you quit whining about your ethnic origin Sunny you might appreciate America more. Every nation in the world has been enslaved at one time or another. Muslems sold Black natives to white slave traders. The English starved the Irish during the potato famine and when the poor starved wretches arrived in America they drafted them into the army to be used as cannon fodder. Muslems need to address the tyranny of modern Shria law and the carnage of the jihad before they start lecturing about freedom on the 4th of July.
> ...



I see nothing here to indicate Sunni wants to infringe upon anyone's rights.

Hell, he didn't even tell me not to eat pork just that he wasn't going to.

Happy 4th of July.


----------



## The Gadfly (Jul 3, 2011)

Zander said:


> Who gives a fuck?



I do. If a man has enough love for this country to go halfway around the world to fight a war for her (which Sunni did, in Vietnam), then the way I see it, he has a right to talk about what America means to him, whether you or I agree with him, or not, and I've got a reason to at least hear what he has to say.


----------



## Jroc (Jul 3, 2011)

Sunni Man said:


> By Imam Johari Abdul-Malik
> 
> The Fourth of July has many meanings to this American Muslim.  It is both a source of pride, disappointment of a dream deferred and the hope of fulfillment of a universal promise of freedom - Independence - and equality for all.  *History reminds us that on July 4th 1187 Sulahudeen Ayoubi liberated Jerusalem from the Crusaders and invited the expelled Jewish families to return to their homes in the Holy Land.*
> 
> ...






> Gregorian calendar, also called New Style Calendar , solar dating system now in general use. It was proclaimed in *1582 by Pope Gregory XIII as a reform of the Julian calendar*.
> 
> By the Julian reckoning, the solar year comprised 365 1/4 days; the intercalation of a &#8220;leap day&#8221; every four years was intended to maintain correspondence between the calendar and the seasons. A slight inaccuracy in the measurement (the solar year comprising more precisely 365 days, 5 hours, 48 minutes, 45.25 seconds) caused the calendar dates of the seasons to regress almost one day per century.



http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/245469/Gregorian-calendar


----------



## The Gadfly (Jul 4, 2011)

You know, I find it disturbing that so many of you have posted in here attacking Sunni, yet you have said little to nothing about what America's Birthday means to YOU. That's a shame, because July 4 is a day, not just for fireworks and celebrations; but also a time to reflect on the meaning of that day two hundred and thirty-five years ago, when a relatively small group of men in a backwater colony of Great Britain put their signatures on that piece of parchment. Today, we forget what a shockingly audacious act it was, for thirteen small colonies, most of the population of which lived within 50 miles of the coast, to unilaterally declare independence from the Crown of the most powerful empire on earth, much less to attempt to found a nation on the novel idea that "All men are created equal....". A wild, impossible dream, with little more than a rabble for an army, and small boats for a navy to back it up; the signers of that document had a better chance of ending their days on a British gallows, than ever seeing their dream become reality - and yet, somehow they succeeded.No one could have imagined, on that day in 1776, that over two centuries later that infant nation would span a continent, and become the mightiest nation on the globe, one that would become a beacon of hope and liberty that would inspire countless millions around the world.

That nation, like the men who founded her, was not and is not perfect. Sometimes, I believe we make too much of that today. Some of us want to pretend that America has no flaws; others seem to want to see only the blemishes on her history. Both miss the point. It may have taken two centuries to fully realize the promise embodied in that declaration, but slowly, sometimes painfully, we have done so more and more. That fledgling nation came up with a constitution that has stood the test of time; though it took us a long time to redeem the promises of that document, that too has largely been done. America has stumbled and bungled her way along, many times, but through it all, she has become stronger, not weaker; better, not worse. She's had her share of villainy, but she's had her share of selfless nobility too.

We as a people, have had our share in it all. Other nations were built by aristocrats; we're a nation of mutts, many of our ancestors the rejects of other nations, but America is a place where anyone, from anywhere, can rise from nothing to greatness with enough brains, tenacity, and hard work. That has sometimes produced the worst sort of greed, excess, and envy; it has also produced brilliance, and achievement found nowhere else. We have our critics, at home and abroad. Some say we're too loud, too brash, too sure of ourselves, and sometimes we are; but in some of those nations that are supposedly nicer, people want to leave; here, we have half the world beating on the door, trying to get in. We must be doing something right.

America has come so far, so fast, that sometimes we seem guilt-ridden over our own success. We need not be.  Sure, we need to take a hard, cold look at ourselves from time to time, but we don't need to be consumed with self-doubt. We are where we are, because we as a nation were willing to dream big, and act big, and think big. You tell a lot of people around the world, "It can't be done" and they'll believe you; you tell an American "it can't be done, and he'll answer, "Why the hell not?" Some call that arrogance; I call it the kind of guts it took to sign that declaration in 1776! I'll tell you something else; we have our share of whiners, naysayers, and complacent folks who leave the hard tough jobs to someone else; but what we also have, is a lot of other people who gladly pitch in, pick up the slack, and get the job done. That's all generations of us too. Sometimes we older folks despair of our youth, but down in Tuscaloosa, Alabama we have a bunch of college students spending their summer vacation rebuilding their college town, after a tornado leveled half of it. We're pretty resilient, too; a town in Kansas got wiped out by a twister. It was just a little place and the people could have just left, but they rebuilt, only to have another twister level it again the next year. Quit and move on? Not them; they rebuilt it again, better than before. I keep hearing how other countries are getting ahead of us; how their kids are smarter and better educated. I heard that years ago, too; but tell me how many of those countries have put a man on the moon? How many have given the world the advances in science and medicine we have?

I keep hearing how selfish and greedy America is, but you find me another nation as generous, at home and abroad. Let a disaster happen on the other side of the world, and we'll be there to help, just like we have been time after time before. It's not because we expect something in return, either. Haiti is so poor it has nothing to offer us, and yet, when an earthquake struck, Americans not only sent money and supplies; a surprising number volunteered their time to go there and do what they could to help. Some selfishness! I hear how other countries hate us, and maybe their governments do, but the people remember what America did for them, and they appreciate it. Some say our military brutalizes other countries; well, why is it I see our soldiers write home, asking not for things for themselves, but for everything from school supplies to soccer balls for the local kids? No one ordered them to do that, they did it and they still do it, because that's what Americans do. You know, there are towns in Europe we bombed, shelled and fought through, where every year the locals put flowers on the monuments to the American soldiers who liberated them; ask those people what nasty "imperialists" we are. 

We're so free, that we often take freedom for granted. We're free to say and do things that would get us a prison sentence or worse in most nations. We're free to burn the flag, oppose our government, insult the politicians, free to spread filth, or even hatred. Things are said every day on this board, that would get us locked up elsewhere, even in the "social democracies" of Europe. We have had that liberty, and continue to have it, only because good people have risked and endured suffering, ridicule, and even given their lives, both here, and abroad, to preserve it, and protect it. Most of us don't realize how precious a gift that freedom is, until we have to fight for it, or go someplace where there is no freedom. America sure looks good, when you come back to her from that.

America is still a work in progress, and sometimes we don't get it quite right, but we keep trying anyway. Too many Americans are still living in poverty, and homelessness, too many kids still go hungry, and too often, even our system of justice doesn't work like it ought to. There's too much selfishness, and self-indulgence, and some of our popular culture these days is downright poisonous. We still fight too much among ourselves. Some of us don't believe the government can do anything, and some others want the government to do everything-both are wrong. Too many of us stand for nothing, and fall for anything. Some file lawsuits like they were playing the lottery, and others have lost any sense of being responsible for anything they do, no matter how stupid, or even downright criminal. Too many of us spend too much time trying to figure out who to blame for what we don't like, and not nearly enough time actually trying to make it right. None of those problems are trivial, but I'll take them over the problems most of the world has, any day. I'll take them, because for every parasite, abuser, do-nothing, and jerk, there are many more Americans out there every day being quiet heroes, doing the little things and the big things to make this society better. Most of us never hear about them, or give what they do a second thought, but they're there just the same.

So I love America, shortcomings and all. I love her, unashamedly, and I'll go on loving her, until they put her flag on my coffin. For all her faults, she is still the best, brightest, and noblest attempt at a nation with liberty and justice for all that mankind has managed to produce, and that is still a thing worth celebrating, on this Independence Day. Happy Birthday, America!


----------



## Sunni Man (Jul 4, 2011)

That was a great post Gadfly.

Happy 4th of July to you !!


----------



## California Girl (Jul 4, 2011)

Zander said:


> Who gives a fuck?



That about sums it up.


----------



## California Girl (Jul 4, 2011)

The Gadfly said:


> Zander said:
> 
> 
> > Who gives a fuck?
> ...



Of course he has that right. I applaud his ability to display his hatred towards Jews... and his ability to display his rabid hatred for non-Muslims, despite that they are his fellows Americans.

Fighting for your country does not make anyone above criticism. Sonny Boy is a hate filled anti-semite. I would not wish to silence him.... I prefer these bastards out in the open, where people can see them for who they really are.


----------



## Douger (Jul 4, 2011)

Happy Birthday.........Pretty good chance it´s close to the last one.
´Twas quite a fun ride for a while.


----------



## Sunni Man (Jul 4, 2011)

Yesterday after the evening prayers at the mosque there was a little bit of controversy.

 A Muslim from Bangladesh stood up and said he wanted to remind everybody that there is a big fireworks display downtown on 4 July. Then another Muslim spoke up and that he did not think Muslims had any business being there Because there would be a lot of drinking and women who were not dressed modestly.

He responded by saying that "yes everyone should go and take their children to see the fireworks display."  " Just to show that we as Muslim Americans support America by our presents on the 4th "

 He told them as long as it did not violate any Islamic rules then they should participate in every American celebration or event.  He then went on to talk about how all three of his children were born in America . And were being raised to be loyal and patriotic Americans and need to experience the fullness of what being an American means.

 Many of us give lip service to the concept of our nation being a melting pot.

 But I was privileged to see this melting pot theory in action. 

Happy 4th of July


----------



## California Girl (Jul 4, 2011)

Sunni Man said:


> Yesterday after the evening prayers at the mosque there was a little bit of controversy.
> 
> A Muslim from Bangladesh stood up and said he wanted to remind everybody that there is a big fireworks display downtown on 4 July. Then another Muslim spoke up and that he did not think Muslims had any business being there Because there would be a lot of drinking and women who were not dressed modestly.
> 
> ...



 That's some funny shit..... melting pot....  Weren't you the one who wanted all Jews rounded up and shipped off to some island somewhere.... for their own protection. 

Muslim, maybe.... hypocrite definitely.


----------



## Sunni Man (Jul 4, 2011)

I am privileged to personally know the only Muslim member of D.A.R. ( Daughters of the American Revolution)

 She is the secretary at the Mosque and can trace her ancestry back to the Mayflower.


----------



## Jroc (Jul 4, 2011)

California Girl said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> > Yesterday after the evening prayers at the mosque there was a little bit of controversy.
> ...



The problem is you can't believe a thing Sunni boy says, he was in Vietnam? and isn't he the person that wanted to give a medal to Julian Assange? A man who has damaged this country and might have helped in the deaths of U.S. serviceman? Screw Sunni boy he's scum and a liar.


----------



## Sunni Man (Jul 4, 2011)

I am kind of puzzled that California Girul and others have given me neg reps over this thread.

 Because 4 July is a day that all Americans should forget their differences and celebrate the birth of our nation.

btw   Happy 4th of July to you California Girl


----------



## Sunni Man (Jul 4, 2011)

WASHINGTON, June 28, 2011 /PRNewswire/ -- American Muslims from around the country will be recording online video messages about America, sharing their proudest moments as Americans and what they love most about this country. An online platform dedicated to promoting the grassroots voice of Muslims in America, My Faith My Voice (MFMV), announced today that it is spearheading this campaign during July 4th weekend in honor of the national holiday.

The 30-60 second video messages will be available online at My Faith My Voice, starting July 1st.

"Being American Muslims is not something that we necessarily think about; it's just simply who we are," said Nagla Fetouh, a board member of MFMV.  "But it's nice to use occasions like this to reflect on this aspect of our identity and share what we enjoy most about it. It will be interesting to see the different responses we may get."

http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=xprnw.20110628.PH27397&show_article=1


----------



## brono921 (Jul 4, 2011)

_History reminds us that on July 4th 1187 Sulahudeen Ayoubi liberated Jerusalem from the Crusaders and invited the expelled Jewish families to return to their homes in the Holy Land._

Interesting point.  You're leaving out the part where Crusaders pushed back the Islamic invasion that was using Jerusalem as a staging point to invade Europe.


_As an American Muslim I cant help but wonder if perhaps when framing the US Constitution that Jefferson's Quran (The one that Congressman Keith Ellison was sworn into office on) gave reinforcement to the universal ideal of freedom of religion as a God given right from Sharia._

Don't recall seeing any references to Sharia law in our judicial system, but please correct me if I'm wrong.


_Perhaps James Madison while studying the life of the Prophet Muhammad saw where he set forth in 622 the Treaty of Medina which proclaimed; the security of God is equal for all groups (including Jews), the people of other faiths have equal political and cultural rights as Muslims and that they will have autonomy and freedom of religion._

Wasn't the Treaty of Medina signed after the Islamic horde conquered much of Spain?  Ooops.

_But America has been since her inception a mixed bag of contradictions just like each of us.  She is guided by universal principles yet all to often falling victim to human frailties, creating two Americas, one of discrimination and one of freedom.  While holding Africans in bondage proclaiming, .....all men are created equal. Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr reminds us, the arc of the moral universe is long, but it bends towards justice. and the moral arc of America long and it bends toward freedom._

I'd suggest that you study history a bit more in depth.  Many states outlawed the institution of slavery in that time.

_Fredrick Douglas in his damning yet hopeful critique delivered on July 5th, 1852 in Rochester, NY The Meaning of July 4th for the Negro.  Douglas reminds us of the contradictions between the ideals and the reality of The Republic.  Although, the toll of enslavement on the African remains unmeasured, slavery is over._
Actually it can be measured.  Look at the continent of Africa, a place rich in natural resources that could be a land of plenty for all who live there.  Rather, it is a place of degenerate governments that war constantly with each other, starve it's own people, sell them in to bondage, and is being wiped out by HIV/AIDS.

_As a descendant of enslaved Africans, many of whom were Muslim, I recall that in over two hundred years of slavery Islam was systematically removed from my people until emancipation in1865.  In the post Malcolm X era (1965); after one hundred years of freedom, Islam is among the fastest growing traditional religions in America.  Faith flourishes in freedom. _

Again, you need to do a bit more research.  Islamic Arabs hate Islamic Africans and seek to wipe them out.


----------



## Sunni Man (Jul 4, 2011)

If you care to discuss these issues then you should start a thread.

 I personally just want to Celebrate 4 July and wish America happy birthday.


----------



## brono921 (Jul 4, 2011)

[_QUOTE=Sunni Man;3819441]If you care to discuss these issues then you should start a thread._

 Sure.  I'll remind you, however, that it's was your references to them in this thread that has shown a clear contridiction with historical fact.  Just thought that should be pointed out.


----------



## Sunni Man (Jul 4, 2011)

I saw no contradiction of facts.

 Some people see America as a glass half empty

 How others view it as completely full.

 The OP was a mixture of both views good and bad of America.

 Which just shows that America is a complex entity with many contradictions.

 But when summed up has many things to be admired.


----------



## chanel (Jul 4, 2011)

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dwkCtuIauIE&feature=related]YouTube - &#x202a;Battle Hymn Of The Republic with lyrics&#x202c;&rlm;[/ame]


----------



## brono921 (Jul 4, 2011)

_I saw no contradiction of facts._

 Well, for starters, let's not pretend that Muslims treated the Jew fairly.  They didn't.  Mohammad himself put many to the sword, simply for being Jew.
Those he didn't kill had to suffer under the oppression of dhiminitude.  It's kind of like Nazi Germany, only without the consentration camps.
Then there's the fact that Islamic conversion of many nations during that time was under duress.  Those who didn't capitulate lost their lives, their women and children taken into bondage, and the wealth was stolen.
You would have to be completely blind to historical fact to not know this.
To this very day, Islamic governance is notoriously oppressive, even in it's mild form.
They abide no other religion to be practiced within their governance, it's citizens must adhere to a strict code of conduct that restricts their liberty, and penalties for actions outside of Sharia are swift and brutal.
The irony here is that you would praise such brutality as freedom, then compare Islamic teaching to  the founding of this nation.
Therein lies your contradiction.


----------



## Sunni Man (Jul 4, 2011)

Did I mention that this thread is about America's 4 July and American Muslims who celebrate it and wish it a happy birthday?

( the key word here being American )


----------



## The Gadfly (Jul 4, 2011)

California Girl said:


> The Gadfly said:
> 
> 
> > Zander said:
> ...



You missed the point. I don't agree with some of the things Sunni says, but here in America, he has the right to say them. How many of you critics can say you have never uttered a hateful word about some one or some group, here or elsewhere; you don't think what you are saying about Sunni and Muslims in general is just a bit hateful? It's hateful enough, for the government in a lot of democracies to punish you for it, but it's allowed here, whether you say it, or Sunni says it. No veteran is or ought to be immune from criticism, but those who have served have at least shown their love for this nation in a way most Americans have not, and deserve a little extra slack, even when some of the opinions they express are misguided. There are other vets here I often disagree with, (U.S, Geauxtohell, U.S. Army Retired, MikeK, and others), but all of us agree on one simple thing: we all love this country, and we all want what we believe is the best for her. We may differ on a lot of things, but on that, we are *united*.

In any case, this is a day for celebrating all the good things America represents, not for trashing our fellow Americans. It's a day to focus on the things that unite us, not those that divide us, and whether or not we agree with many of Sunni's opinions, he has expressed his love for this nation in his post, and that common ground is what we need to focus on; you'd think we could do that, at least for one day (assuming the rest of you care at least as much for your country as you do for slamming those you don't agree with). So stop the trashing and bashing, and tell us what America means to YOU.


----------



## Sunni Man (Jul 4, 2011)

I keep hearing people on this board asking where are the moderate muslims?

 Although I am not quite clear exactly what that means?

 I was just trying to start a thread showing that the vast majority of Muslims are patriotic.

 And willing to buy into the American dream and democratic system

 Isn't that what we hope all American citizens will do regardless of birth place or ethnicity ?


----------



## Momanohedhunter (Jul 4, 2011)

Sunni Man said:


> So what is your point?
> 
> Both George Washington and Thomas Jefferson owned, bought and sold slaves.
> 
> ...



Muslims are not supposed to keep other Muslims as slaves. Same as Jews and Christians.


----------



## C_Clayton_Jones (Jul 4, 2011)

> there would be a lot of drinking and women who were not dressed modestly.



One can only hope. 

The genius of America is that I may provide Sunni with a vigorous defense of his faith, although I consider his religion primitive and barbaric (indeed, all religions are primitive and barbaric), and his position on many issues reprehensible.


----------



## smalltime (Jul 4, 2011)

Sunni Man said:


> I keep hearing people on this board asking where are the moderate muslims?
> 
> Although I am not quite clear exactly what that means?
> 
> ...



I hope you are a moderate muslim. 

To me that means that you can suffer the rest of us to live our lives and not judge. To many of us (I think) we are convinced that your religion compells you to prejude all infedels as worth nothing but a bullet.

If you are past this point in your teachings, I comend you. But that brings us to the next big problem from the unwashed: 

If you detest killing infedels just for the sake of it, Then:

DENOUNCE THE MUSLIMS WHO DO........ PUBLICLY

SPEAK OUT AGAINST THE TREATMENT OF WOMEN IN THE SHARIA RULED KINGDOMS......... PUBLICLY


STOP SUPPORTING HAMAS WITH DONATIONS FROM YOUR MOSQUE......... PUBLICLY

Rant over


----------



## C_Clayton_Jones (Jul 4, 2011)

There is no such thing as a moderate Muslim. 

One either practices the faith per doctrine and dogma, or one does not and is a heretic. Those who advocate violence with faith as justification  Muslim, Christian, or Jew  is a criminal, and his faith incidental.


----------



## Warrior102 (Jul 4, 2011)

Hey Sunni - Happy Fourth old man.


----------



## Sunni Man (Jul 4, 2011)

#1) There is nothing in the Quran about killing Muslims just for the sake of killing them.

#2)  What they do in other nations concerning women is none of my business; Their country and their laws.

#3)  I do not know of any Mosque that provides funding for Hamas. As it is against federal law.

btw  Happy 4th of July


----------



## Sunni Man (Jul 4, 2011)

Warrior102 said:


> Hey Sunni - Happy Fourth old man.



Happy 4th to you young wipper snapper


----------



## whitehall (Jul 4, 2011)

What have muslem dominated religious states accomplished in the last 2,000 years? It took America 235 years to become the only super-power on earth while Muslems are still living in the dirt and starving while they plan a jihad against the "great satan". Muslems took over the resort city of Lebanon and turned it into a rubble strewn slum unfit for human habitation. Anyone ever research the muslem Sharia tradition of stoning someone to death (mostly women) for relatively minor "offences"? Don't if you want to sleep at night.


----------



## Sunni Man (Jul 4, 2011)

*One Muslim&#8217;s reflection on the 4th of July*


What does July 4th mean to Muslims in America?

It means everything and the biggest one is the freedom. Islam is indeed about freedom of conscience, justice and liberty. Sadly there are those Muslims, as well as people from other religions, who don&#8217;t live up to the ideals of their own faith.

The Pledge of Allegiance is one of the most cherished statements for Muslims, &#8220;One Nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.&#8221; There are several verses in Quraan that assert those values; it&#8217;s like coming home for Muslims.

The concept of equality is etched and nurtured in Muslim psyche in every ritual and spiritual practice of Islam. Prophet Muhammad delivered the following words in his last sermon, &#8220;All mankind is from Adam and Eve, an Arab has no superiority over a non-Arab nor a non-Arab has any superiority over an Arab; also a white has no superiority over black nor does a black have any superiority over white except by piety and good action.&#8221; Muslims hold this declaration close to their hearts and as American Muslims, &#8220;We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.&#8221;

The raging inner battle among Americans to keep the state and church apart resonates with Muslims living in America as Koran speaks out to them:

 49:13-   &#8220;O mankind! We have created you male and female, and have made you nations and tribes that ye may know one another. The noblest of you, in sight of God, is the best in conduct. God Knows and is Aware.&#8221; 

Indeed, knowledge leads to understanding and understanding to acceptance of the otherness of other and an appreciation of a different point of view without having to agree with it.

The American way of rewarding merit appeals to Muslims: you can be who you want to be and many Muslims gloat about their ability to rise on the basis of their merit. The Koran emphasizes that no one but you are responsible for your behavior, you have the freedom to choose the right path or go astray but you alone are responsible for your actions and no one else will bear your burden.

The Prophet tells his own daughter that she will not get a free pass to paradise because she is a daughter of the prophet; she has to earn it on her own through good deeds to fellow beings; such is the Muslim emphasis placed on individual responsibility. These are the free market, democratic values celebrated by Americans.

Every immigrant in general and a Muslim in particular loves the idea that you are innocent until proven guilty. They were tired of being framed in the lands they came from; they see the wholesomeness of justice in America and they love America for it. An observant Muslim recites at least 17 times a day that God alone is the judge and we must refrain from judging others.

Indeed, the essence of freedom is directly proportional to the ability to question oneself, question one&#8217;s own faith, explore myths and prejudices about others and find answers to set oneself free.

Imam Feisal, Dr. Akbar Ahmed and others have written books on Muslim experience in America and virtually every Muslim adores and loves America and its freedom. Please note an overwhelming majority of American Muslims live up to the ideals of their religion as all other Americans live up to the ideals of their religions.

*Happy July 4th of July.*

One Muslim&rsquo;s reflection on the 4th of July - Guest Voices - The Washington Post


----------



## Jroc (Jul 4, 2011)

Sunni Man said:


> *One Muslims reflection on the 4th of July*
> 
> 
> What does July 4th mean to Muslims in America?
> ...





Well....I think you've got a lot of work to do Sunni boy.



Sunni Man said:


> My solution to the Jewish problem.
> 
> Would be to round them up world wide and find and island to quarantine them on.
> 
> ...


----------



## Sunni Man (Jul 4, 2011)

*Atlanta Muslims celebrate Fourth of July
*

Posted: Jul 04, 2011 11:05 AM

Atlanta's Muslim community organized a Fourth of July event which will be open to the public at Bethak Banquet Hall in Dulth from 10 a.m. to 12.30 p.m.

This is a historic event for Atlanta's Muslim community, in which all sections of the community came together to send a message of peace and harmony.

Community Organizer Shamina Vora spoke on the need to strengthen ties between Muslim Americans and their fellow Americans in Atlanta.

"Many observers in the Muslim community feel that the empathy and unity that Americans had for each other following 9/11 has given way to rising Islamophobia, which some worry is increasingly becoming mainstream in America," said Vora in a news release.

Atlanta Muslims celebrate Fourth of July - CBS Atlanta News, Weather, Sports, Traffic - WGCL 46


----------



## Harry Dresden (Jul 4, 2011)

Douger said:


> Happy Birthday.........Pretty good chance it´s close to the last one.
> ´Twas quite a fun ride for a while.



as long as cowards like you keep running to other Countries......we will be around a long time......


----------



## Momanohedhunter (Jul 4, 2011)

Sunni Man said:


> #1) There is nothing in the Quran about killing Muslims just for the sake of killing them.
> 
> #2)  What they do in other nations concerning women is none of my business; Their country and their laws.
> 
> ...



Tell you what, I ate enough for three people and won a dozen arrows in an archery tournament . All and all, it was a great 4th of July. How was yours ?


----------



## rdean (Jul 4, 2011)

Fourth of July: What does it mean to an American Muslim

We have one in Congress.  What does he say?


----------



## Sunni Man (Jul 4, 2011)

Momanohedhunter said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> > #1) There is nothing in the Quran about killing Muslims just for the sake of killing them.
> ...



Still going on; the fireworks are about to start.

btw I was into archery several years back. 

Had a Matthews compound.


----------



## Sunshine (Jul 4, 2011)

Sunni Man said:


> I am privileged to personally know the only Muslim member of D.A.R. ( Daughters of the American Revolution)
> 
> She is the secretary at the Mosque and can trace her ancestry back to the Mayflower.



How do you know that she is the only muslim DAR?  When I got into the DAR, I do not recall any questions about religion being asked.


----------



## Sunni Man (Jul 4, 2011)

rdean said:


> Fourth of July: What does it mean to an American Muslim
> 
> We have one in Congress.  What does he say?



Minnesota Rep. Keith Ellison spoke to CBS News Face The Nation on Sunday.

Ellison, one of two Muslim congressmen, addressed terrorism and the perception of Muslims in the United States.

He outlined what he believes are positive approaches to combating extremism  among them not targeting the Muslim community.

United States is not at war with Islam, Ellison says. The United States is a fair country. 

We know that there are occasions where people are not treated fairly, but those things are not lawful so weve got to stand on our tradition of civil liberties.

He addressed the wave of anti-Muslim sentiment by stressing the need for Americans to come to understand each other. Ellison also expressed disdain for politicians who pit Americans against each other for personal or political gain.

First Muslim Representative Keith Ellison Calls For Outreach


----------



## Jroc (Jul 4, 2011)

Sunni Man said:


> rdean said:
> 
> 
> > Fourth of July: What does it mean to an American Muslim
> ...



Brilliant...The guys a genius.


----------



## Sunni Man (Jul 4, 2011)

Sunshine said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> > I am privileged to personally know the only Muslim member of D.A.R. ( Daughters of the American Revolution)
> ...



She wears hijab and has attended meetings.

So I guess she should know.


----------



## The Gadfly (Jul 4, 2011)

I still don't understand; we call for Muslim Americans to help us fight terror, and show their support and love for America, and then, when a Muslim expresses his love for America, we insult him, and deny him, and question his patriotism and his motives yet again? What would you have Sunni do? What would you have other Americans who also happen to be Muslims do? Some of you can't even discuss your own love for this country, because you are too obsessed with questioning his.

Look, people, no one wants to win this war against Islamic terror, more than I do. No one wants to prevent another attack on America, more than I do; but I do not believe we need to persecute our own fellow Americans, to do either. That's not who we are, as a people; that's not what America is, as a nation. We don't build camps, and throw people behind the wire based on speculation, and without just cause. If someone acts against our country, we prosecute the offending individual(s) in a court of law; we don't try an entire group of our fellow citizens in the streets, in the media, or on a message board. We punish the guilty; we do NOT persecute the innocent. Sunni's "crime" is having some opinions a lot of us disagree with, but every single one of us has opinions someone disagrees with just as much. What's the difference; the fact that he happens to be of the same religion as those who attacked us on 9/11?

What are we going to do, if, God forbid, there is another attack; start hanging every Muslim we can find from every tree and lamp post? Well, are we? What we have to do beyond these shores, we have to do, but going after our own? We had all better think long and hard before we do that, because the day we do, that constitution a number of us swore to "support and defend" won't be worth the paper it's written on, and that would fly in the face of everything we celebrate, on Independence day.


----------



## whitehall (Jul 4, 2011)

Sunni seems determined to lecture America about race relations on the "glorious 4th" while his consituents are living in filth, abusing women and planning the next jihad against the great satan. God Bless America and happy 235 Birthday.


----------



## Momanohedhunter (Jul 4, 2011)

Sunni Man said:


> Momanohedhunter said:
> 
> 
> > Sunni Man said:
> ...



You should get back into it. Its good for your mellow. Drought canceled fire works here. I have a food hang over any way.


----------



## anuthervoice (Jul 4, 2011)

tl/dr......



who the fvck cares?


----------



## whitehall (Jul 4, 2011)

anuthervoice said:


> tl/dr......
> 
> 
> 
> who the fvck cares?



No offense voice but why bother? If you picked up a book now and then you might be able to respond with more insight than "who the fvuk cares".


----------



## rdean (Jul 5, 2011)

Sunni Man said:


> rdean said:
> 
> 
> > Fourth of July: What does it mean to an American Muslim
> ...



I agree with him.  Republican policies have caused more harm than Bin Laden and al Qeada could even dream about.


----------



## strollingbones (Jul 5, 2011)

Sunni Man said:


> That was a great post Gadfly.
> 
> Happy 4th of July to you !!



the op and gadfly's post were simply too long to be bothered with.....


----------



## strollingbones (Jul 5, 2011)

Sunshine said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> > I am privileged to personally know the only Muslim member of D.A.R. ( Daughters of the American Revolution)
> ...



all you have to do is prove you are the descendant of a patriot during the american revolution


----------



## editec (Jul 5, 2011)

Some of us are under the impression tha Moslems cannot also be good citizens.

I recall only too well that at one time some of my fellow Americans thought that no Roman Catholic could be a good American because of their religion, too.

Fuck them then, and fuck them _now_, too.


----------



## Momanohedhunter (Jul 5, 2011)

Theologically , I have, and never will have ANY thing in common with Sunni Man. Thats a fact, we are both Americans though. In a country where religion is supposed to mean nothing, and we are free to worship (or not)how ever we please, it is shocking how many folks will give the guy a hard time. There are no records of Buddhist or Taoist fighting in the American Revolution so I guess they should get the same treatment then ? Sunni is a Muslim, and is on record in past post to be against the craziness perpetrated by fanatics over seas. He is all right, even though we dont see eye to eye on other things. He is an American who enjoys freedom like the rest of us. Same for the rest of the Muslims in America.


----------



## Sunni Man (Jul 5, 2011)

Being a Muslim in America many times proves difficult. This thread is a perfect example. Half of the people are supporting or at least fair in their assessment of Muslims in America. While the other half have nothing but hate and venom towards American Muslims.  

 All I was trying to show was that American Muslims have bought into the American dream. And that they are proud to be American citizens and live in this country. Celebrating 4 July has special significance for them. And are proud to be here as citizens in their adopted country.

 Personally, I get tired of hearing, " Well in Pakistan they do this or in Saudi Arabia they do that". We are in America and not another country. What they do in their country is there concern not ours. Yet people are always telling me to denounce this group or act.  Although I never can figure out what my denunciation would prove or achieve?  And exactly who would I verbalize my denunciation to?

American Muslins are concerned with the same issues as everyone else. Paying the mortgage, Car payments, Braces for the kids teeth, Keeping the lawn nice, taxes, etc.

 So called creeping sharia?  I never got the official Muslim memo.

 Jihad ?   Who has time for that?  I'm still trying to kill the crabgrass in my yard. Infidels are way down on my list.


----------



## California Girl (Jul 5, 2011)

The Gadfly said:


> California Girl said:
> 
> 
> > The Gadfly said:
> ...



Here's my issue (one of them) with Sonny Boy's "Patriotism"..... he wants Sharia to be the law of our country. How unAmerican is that? He wants to force all Americans to become Muslims. Fuck him.... and fuck Shariah.


----------



## Momanohedhunter (Jul 5, 2011)

Will it happen ? Not likely. The Illegals are doing better making the country Mexican.


----------



## High_Gravity (Jul 5, 2011)

Momanohedhunter said:


> Will it happen ? Not likely. The Illegals are doing better making the country Mexican.



Hey at least the Mexicans will let us drink alcohol and womanize in peace.


----------



## Two Thumbs (Jul 5, 2011)

Independence Day is not, has not and never will be about religion.

It's a day set aside to remeber the men, women and somtimes kids, that intentionally put themselves in harms way against a far better army and navy than we had, so that thier kids and grandkids and on down the line would never know the yoke of tryanny and would only know freedom.


----------



## Momanohedhunter (Jul 5, 2011)

Two Thumbs said:


> Independence Day is not, has not and never will be about religion.
> 
> It's a day set aside to remeber the men, women and somtimes kids, that intentionally put themselves in harms way against a far better army and navy than we had, so that thier kids and grandkids and on down the line would never know the yoke of tryanny and would only know freedom.



Better equipped sure, Our guys were of a higher quality.


----------



## Two Thumbs (Jul 5, 2011)

Momanohedhunter said:


> Two Thumbs said:
> 
> 
> > Independence Day is not, has not and never will be about religion.
> ...



The Brits were fighting for a paycheck

We fought for liberty.

We simply wanted it more.


----------



## Momanohedhunter (Jul 5, 2011)

Two Thumbs said:


> Momanohedhunter said:
> 
> 
> > Two Thumbs said:
> ...



yup,


----------

