# EV's Fuel Cost 3 Times Less Than Gas



## Star (Jun 27, 2013)

.
Republicans prefer-----prefer to pay higher fuel costs, while simultaneously forcing taxpayers and energy consumers to fund both sides of the War On Terror, then-----then they have the audacity to call themselves fiscal conservatives -pewsh!- 


Ever wonder how fueling a gasoline car compares in cost to fueling a plug-in electric car? At this week's annual Electric Drive Transportation Association (EDTA) conference in Washington, D.C., the Department of Energys David Danielson announced a handy new web tool called eGallon that allows you to do just that. The site shows that on average in the U.S., it costs $3.65 per gallon in gasoline to fuel a car and the equivalent of only $1.14 per gallon to fuel a car with electricity.

The Mayor of Indianapolis Is Electrifying his City
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## RGR (Jun 27, 2013)

I have relatively cheap electricity, plus I watch the bills come in, versus what they were when I paying for liquid fuels, and the EV certainly doesn't use near as much $$.


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## whitehall (Jun 27, 2013)

When will the radical left stop whining about only controlling 2/3 of the federal government? Republicans have nothing to do with the manufacture of electric cars but it seems that limousine liberals think everybody should be able to shell out 50-75 grand for a toy that can only travel 30 miles without a charge. For some reason radical liberals have gotten it into their pretty little empty heads that taxpayers should finance electric charge stations for the convenience of rich libs.


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## Old Rocks (Jun 27, 2013)

whitehall said:


> When will the radical left stop whining about only controlling 2/3 of the federal government? Republicans have nothing to do with the manufacture of electric cars but it seems that limousine liberals think everybody should be able to shell out 50-75 grand for a toy that can only travel 30 miles without a charge. For some reason radical liberals have gotten it into their pretty little empty heads that taxpayers should finance electric charge stations for the convenience of rich libs.



Poor ol' senile Whitey doesn't seem to realize the Tesla gets over 250 miles on a single charge, and can do 0 to 60 in 4.2 seconds. Not only that, top end of 134 mph, in an automobile that recieved the highest marks that Consumer Reports has ever given a vehicle.

And, as we post, several companies are working on duplicating in a manufacturing process the batteries they have built in the lab that have 4 to 10 times the capacity of the present lithium ion. That would give the Tesla S and Tesla X over 1000 miles on a charge.

And both the S and X are very roomy vehicles, with ample room for luggage. As for price, the price of a Buick SUV, nowhere near the quality of the Tesla X, is 52 K. And the Tesla S is in the same price range as similiar quality sports sedans.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qVshLljwQFI]Tesla Model X introduction - YouTube[/ame]

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1kCG-WqpVnI]Car and Driver: Tested : 2013 Tesla Model S - Review - CAR and DRIVER - YouTube[/ame]


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## dilloduck (Jun 27, 2013)

I've seen liberals driving cars with internal combustion engines. Yup----I have.


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## Star (Jun 28, 2013)

whitehall said:


> When will the radical left stop whining about only controlling 2/3 of the federal government? Republicans have nothing to do with the manufacture of electric cars but it seems that limousine liberals think everybody should be able to shell out 50-75 grand for a toy that can only travel 30 miles without a charge. For some reason radical liberals have gotten it into their pretty little empty heads that taxpayers should finance electric charge stations for the convenience of rich libs.


 

Apples to apples, oranges to oranges comparison, i.e. Ford Focus Electric compared to the Ford Focus ST. 

*UPDATED: Ford Focus Electric vs Ford Focus ST*

Posted on December 7, 2012 by Zachary Shahan 

So, when I ran my comparisons of a Ford Focus Electric and Ford Focus S the other day, I thought the Ford Focus S was the most similar non-electric model to the Ford Focus Electric. Woops. After some discussions with readers, it seems the more appropriate comparison (for current Ford Focus options) is the Ford Focus ST, which has a base price of $23,700.

Additionally, readers seemed to make good arguments that maintenance costs really need to be included in these comparisons. So, without running through all the text in this post that I included in the other one, lets quickly jump to some comparisons based on a similar variety of assumptions but with these changes incorporated (*followed by a bunch of other considerations, mostly brought up by readers, that you really should consider*):
*Ford Focus Electric vs Ford Focus ST*

Two assumptions that stay constant below are that the Ford Focus Electric has a combined MPGe rating of 105 and the Ford Focus ST has a combined MPG rating of 22. I also keep constant the assumption that average additional maintenance costs per mile (for the Ford Focus ST) = 4¢. Also, figures listed below are for the total cost at the end of the year. These factors as well as the ones I change below can be changed in this spreadsheet.

*Example 1*


Assumptions:

average miles driven per year = 20,000
average price of electricity when charging your EV = 12¢/kWh
average price of gas per gallon = $4.50
tax rebates = $10,000
Result: start saving money in *year 2* (not including health savings and the many other factors listed at the end of this post).



​ 

More comparisons &#9758; *here*

BTW, according to the *eGallon*, today in the state of Washington the cost of a gallon of gasoline is on average $3.87, the equivalent amount of electricity is-----is .84¢. Are you righties sure you want to use 'cost comparison' as your argument against EV's? -- knock yerself out!

Why do you think I'm pretty?
.


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## Politico (Jun 28, 2013)

The problem isn't fuel cost. Never been the argument.


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## RGR (Jun 28, 2013)

Politico said:


> The problem isn't fuel cost. Never been the argument.



So the argument is the lower lifecycle cost? The less emissions benefit? The economic benefit of using American produced and distributed fuels and the advantage this leads to in a foreign policy sense? The increased quiet of EVs over their fire breathing brethren? The morally questionable aspect of demanding a mode of transport fueled by the same stuff our parents used which somehow requires us to be as wasteful of valuable feedstock and environmentally ignorant!!

Now I am confused, if those things don't matter, what is the argument?


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## flacaltenn (Jun 28, 2013)

Star said:


> .
> Republicans prefer-----prefer to pay higher fuel costs, while simultaneously forcing taxpayers and energy consumers to fund both sides of the War On Terror, then-----then they have the audacity to call themselves fiscal conservatives -pewsh!-
> 
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I highly question the sanity of this calculator.. 

Nissan Leaf is 75miles on a 29KWhr charge.. At 0.30 per KWHr that's about $9.00.
Works out to $0.12 a mile.. 

*<< EDIT -- OK Average electric cost is more like 0.15/KWhr. So it's $0.06 per mile for the Leaf>>*

At $3.65/gallon -- an ICE car getting 30mpg works out to be about.......... $0.12 a mile.

Definately NOT the 3:1 number that they quoted. ESPECIALLY not if you live on West Coast or N'East Coast.


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## flacaltenn (Jun 28, 2013)

Star said:


> whitehall said:
> 
> 
> > When will the radical left stop whining about only controlling 2/3 of the federal government? Republicans have nothing to do with the manufacture of electric cars but it seems that limousine liberals think everybody should be able to shell out 50-75 grand for a toy that can only travel 30 miles without a charge. For some reason radical liberals have gotten it into their pretty little empty heads that taxpayers should finance electric charge stations for the convenience of rich libs.
> ...



No it's not.. An eGallon doesn't exist in the real world.

 Take the Leaf example I put up before. If an gas vehicle gets 30mpg, then to fill my Leaf up for 30 miles I have to provide 30/75 * 29KWhrs * $0.12/KWhr == $1.39..

In California that would cost me $2.30 something.

That's NOT $0.84.. So no freaking idea what an eGallon is --- but it's part of the hype being used on consumers..

Maybe the problem is not on the "righties" side. But a basic inability for leftists to do the 6th grade math...


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## Old Rocks (Jun 28, 2013)

flacaltenn said:


> Star said:
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Solar on the roof and you power your home, fuel your vehicle, and get a few dimes back from the utility at the end of the year. Seems the way to go.


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## Old Rocks (Jun 28, 2013)

flacaltenn said:


> Star said:
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Appears to me that you are the one argueing with basic math. Tell me when you figure out a way to make your own gasoline or diesel that is at a reasonable cost.


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## whitehall (Jun 28, 2013)

When do you start saving money on a $95,000 Tesla? Who builds the dream world charging stations for the limousine liberals to juice their toys? Who says the charges won't go to $100 per volt when people have no other choice? Gasoline is expensive because the administration wants it to be expensive for a couple of reasons. #1 to force Americans to change their lifestyles, #2 to punish Americans for their decadence. #3 to make left wing crooks who peddle fake carbon credits and contribute to radical left wing politicians rich.


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## whitehall (Jun 28, 2013)

What's going to happen if the lefte dream world becomes a reality and there are 255 Million electric passenger vehicles humming along? What happens when the power grid can't take the pressure of juicing all those cars? Will they click on another couple of windmills and throw out a solar blanket or two? Most likely they will demand more fossil burning or nuclear generators and/or they will restrict private transportation to government officials and the elite and the rest of us will be crammed into smelly buses like a bunch of Bolivians.


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## Lumpy 1 (Jun 28, 2013)

Taxes....mostly wasted, funding unfair liberal schemes .. Just sayin..check out the links for your State & local

--------------------------

What is the United States national gas tax rate?
The United States federal excise tax on gasoline is 18.4 cents per gallon (cpg) and 24.4 cents per gallon (cpg) for diesel fuel. On average, as of April 2012, state and local taxes add 31.1 cents to gasoline and 30.2 cents to diesel for a total US average fuel tax of 49.5 cents (cpg) per gallon for gas and 54.6 cents per gallon (cpg) for diesel.

What are the specific taxes for each state?
Some states charge an excise tax while other states have a flat tax. The below table displays state taxes plus fees, plus the 18.4 cents-per-gallon (cpg) federal excise tax. Additionally, some local counties may additionally charge an excise tax on gas, which is not reflected in this table. Please consult your specific local government for more information.

What do the state and local governments generate in fuel taxes?
For a chart of state and local revenues generated by fuel taxes, please click here.


National and State Gas Taxes (Fuel Taxes) in the United States - GasPriceWatch.com


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## chikenwing (Jun 28, 2013)

Old Rocks said:


> flacaltenn said:
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just to add to the basic math, maint labor costs are going to be a bit more costly as are repair parts.


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## Old Rocks (Jun 28, 2013)

chikenwing said:


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How so?


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## Politico (Jun 29, 2013)

RGR said:


> Politico said:
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> > The problem isn't fuel cost. Never been the argument.
> ...



The argument is the same as it is in the hundreds of threads where hypocrites who don't actually own one of these cars tell everyone else to buy one.


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## Two Thumbs (Jun 29, 2013)

please feel free to come to my house and dump the 20k needed to rebuild it so I can spend more money to get an ev car.






I know what I just said was dumb, but it shows how dumb the op is.  not everyone can do what is needed to get an ev car, but that's somehow the gops fault.


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## Old Rocks (Jun 29, 2013)

No, it is not the GOP's fault that the present batteries are expensive enough that most long range EV's are beyond the budget of the middle class. Short range EV's, 75 to 100 miles, are good for those with long daily urban commutes. But of limited value to those not in an urban setting.

What is amazing, at least to me, is the number of people that identify with the GOP that make absolutely nonsense statements concerning the EV's. Almost as if it is a personal insult that the technology is maturing to the point where EV's are practical.

As the capacity of the batteries continue to increase, and the cost comes down, EV's will continue to increase there market share as people realize the savings that they represent, particularly if partnered with home solar.


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## RGR (Jun 29, 2013)

Politico said:


> RGR said:
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Haven't seen much of that. Certainly I tell everyone to buy one, but I also own one. Maybe you are referring to another forum where everyone who doesn't own one tells everyone to buy one?


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## mamooth (Jun 29, 2013)

whitehall said:


> What's going to happen if the lefte dream world becomes a reality and there are 255 Million electric passenger vehicles humming along? What happens when the power grid can't take the pressure of juicing all those cars?.



"The sky is falling! The sky is falling!"

U.S. Finds Electric Power Grid Can Fuel Fleets of Plug-In Cars - Preview
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WASHINGTON -- The nation's existing electric power grid could fuel as many as 180 million electric cars, a Department of Energy study estimates.
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Oops. Guess the sky isn't falling. Unless you live in Whitehall's leftist dream world and think that 255 million electric cars will instantly all appear at once.


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## Politico (Jun 29, 2013)

What do you own RGR? Pics? And when did you stop driving gas vehicles?


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## westwall (Jun 29, 2013)

Star said:


> .
> Republicans prefer-----prefer to pay higher fuel costs, while simultaneously forcing taxpayers and energy consumers to fund both sides of the War On Terror, then-----then they have the audacity to call themselves fiscal conservatives -pewsh!-
> 
> 
> ...









That's great.  Hopefully the vehicle will last long enough to make back the difference from the initial outlay.  Then of course there is the toxic battery pack when it is used up.  Plus...well you get it...there's no such thing as a free lunch.

When you guys realize that you will be on the road to recovery.


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## RGR (Jun 29, 2013)

Politico said:


> What do you own RGR? Pics? And when did you stop driving gas vehicles?



A Volt. And I still drive gas vehicles, I use an econobox on road trips, and both a scooter and motorcycle for "fun" around town.


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## flacaltenn (Jun 29, 2013)

mamooth said:


> whitehall said:
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> > What's going to happen if the lefte dream world becomes a reality and there are 255 Million electric passenger vehicles humming along? What happens when the power grid can't take the pressure of juicing all those cars?.
> ...



That's simply not true.. Perhaps the WIRES might be able to CARRY the power (except to the major cities where it's needed) but the GENERATION capacity is FAR from being able to cope with 180Mill vehicles. Especially not with the larger batterypacks reqd and the faster charging times that consumers will demand. 

Even a puny LEAF has a capacity of 29KWhr. Filling that every 2nd day (for a measly 75 mile range) would add 50% to a households energy requirement. In an era where we are trying to prune 5 and 10% of grid capacity by scolding people about conservation, this ain't even plausible..

FAST CHARGING a puny EV like the Leaf in 20 minutes would suck the equivalent load of about 90 homes !!!!!

You need to buy the rest of that article so we can determine wtf they are claiming..

My bet is a puff propaganda piece that assumes the GRID can carry that load or that NO OTHER loads exist when folks charge their vehicles..


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## whitehall (Jun 29, 2013)

The manufacture of gigantic haz-mat batteries don't seem to enter into the pleasant green orientated equation. I think coal mining companies have the black lung problem licked but what's going to happen in the heavy metal factories and I ain't talking about bands when exposure to lead and mercury becomes an issue? That's easy, make them in China. What is the base line cost for setting up charging stations? The left coast has experienced spectacular brownouts in the summer in recent years. Will greenie families have to risk an unexpected layover in a hostile town until the grid catches up? It might make a good hollywood plot.


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## flacaltenn (Jun 29, 2013)

whitehall said:


> The manufacture of gigantic haz-mat batteries don't seem to enter into the pleasant green orientated equation. I think coal mining companies have the black lung problem licked but what's going to happen in the heavy metal factories and I ain't talking about bands when exposure to lead and mercury becomes an issue? That's easy, make them in China. What is the base line cost for setting up charging stations? The left coast has experienced spectacular brownouts in the summer in recent years. Will greenie families have to risk an unexpected layover in a hostile town until the grid catches up? It might make a good hollywood plot.



Mammooth says that Cali has enough excess energy to charge 25Mill EVs.... 

That's why companies are being lined up in brown-out priority..  Because Cali has so much excess electricity and grid capacity.


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## Politico (Jun 30, 2013)

RGR said:


> Politico said:
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> > What do you own RGR? Pics? And when did you stop driving gas vehicles?
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Case and point.


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## RGR (Jun 30, 2013)

Politico said:


> RGR said:
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That would depend on what point you were trying to make? It strikes me at this point in time in the cycle of development of electrical transport that they area niche machine for early adopters, or gizmo freaks like myself. Excellent for a secondary commuting transport, not as much for a primary vehicle. Need a garage for it, not something all places have, and there are range anxiety and battery life issues to be overcome, both at a practical and perspective level.

But the longer I live with mine, the more I like it, the more I am willing to conform to what EV transport requires (give me free fuel please, can I plug into your building while I am doing business here?!), the more it becomes obvious that this thing has gasoline and the problems that come with it beat for a suburban lifestyle.

Sure, it won't tow a horse trailer for some rural folks, but for the 75% of Americans with a commute of less than 40 miles a day where the only thing being moved is a person, this thing rocks. I use an econobox for road trips primarily because hauling around all the extra weight of the battery makes the Volt less efficient compared to a 1.6L 4 cylinder without those extra hundreds of pounds. But I wouldn't hesitate to take the Volt cross country either, it is just that it would require I put GAS in it..yick...I didn't buy it to put GAS in it...


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## dilloduck (Jun 30, 2013)

And what fuel powers the grid that charges these EV ?


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## Katzndogz (Jun 30, 2013)

flacaltenn said:


> whitehall said:
> 
> 
> > The manufacture of gigantic haz-mat batteries don't seem to enter into the pleasant green orientated equation. I think coal mining companies have the black lung problem licked but what's going to happen in the heavy metal factories and I ain't talking about bands when exposure to lead and mercury becomes an issue? That's easy, make them in China. What is the base line cost for setting up charging stations? The left coast has experienced spectacular brownouts in the summer in recent years. Will greenie families have to risk an unexpected layover in a hostile town until the grid catches up? It might make a good hollywood plot.
> ...



You said it before I did.    California cannot meet energy demands now.  Not only brown outs, but black outs as the grid fails at weak points.


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## Star (Jun 30, 2013)

Katzndogz said:


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According to California Independent System Operator Chief Executive Steve Berberich you're just blowing smoke (so to speak) about "Not only brown outs, but black outs " in CA. 


Officials with the California Independent System Operator, which oversees the state's power grid, said Monday they expect to get through another summer without blackouts even if San Onofre remains shuttered  although damaging wildfires in the months ahead could undermine that prediction.

With the plant out of service, the region is more dependent on imported power, and California Independent System Operator Chief Executive Steve Berberich said he was "pretty concerned" that fires could threaten transmission lines in remote areas.
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## Star (Jun 30, 2013)

whitehall said:


> The manufacture of gigantic haz-mat batteries don't seem to enter into the pleasant green orientated equation. I think coal mining companies have the black lung problem licked but what's going to happen in the heavy metal factories and I ain't talking about bands when exposure to lead and mercury becomes an issue? That's easy, make them in China. What is the base line cost for setting up charging stations? The left coast has experienced spectacular brownouts in the summer in recent years. Will greenie families have to risk an unexpected layover in a hostile town until the grid catches up? It might make a good hollywood plot.


 

*JUDY WOODRUFF:* Next, a new investigation finds a resurgence of a deadly disease in coal mining country.
Again, Hari Sreenivasan.


*HARI SREENIVASAN: *More than four decades ago, Congress set a goal of eradicating black lung disease by passing a law that limited miners' exposure to coal dust.
But a joint investigation by NPR and the Center for Public Integrity found many miners are still exposed to too much dust, *leading to a doubling of black lung rates* in just a decade.

<snip>


...But the other thing that's occurred is that the law that was passed to protect miners from black lung and from the dust that causes black lung was never really seriously enforced. It was filled with loopholes from the very beginning that enabled mining companies to basically game the system.

-pewsh!- American industries self-regulating and self policing and governmental lack of ovesight equals more tortuous black lung disease/early death. 

Do you ever fact check before spewing BS or-----or do you purposely just make shit up to indulge your ideology?
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## Moonglow (Jun 30, 2013)

When automobiles first came out their life span was short, they had bad gas mileage and until Ford's model T were expensive to own. Oh my!


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## westwall (Jun 30, 2013)

Star said:


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These people disagree with you...



California Energy Shortage

Subsequent Events-California's Energy Crisis

Navy nears deal to help avoid Cal power shortages

California_Energy_Shortage_2-28-13

California Energy Crisis: Impacts, Causes & Remedies


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## westwall (Jun 30, 2013)

Moonglow said:


> When automobiles first came out their life span was short, they had bad gas mileage and until Ford's model T were expensive to own. Oh my!







And in ten years they crushed the electric car market which was dominant at the time.  Furthermore they have been improved to the point where government regs are actually keeping the most efficient engines from being used.

I like the Volt, just like I like all hybrids, I'm just not foolish enough to think that they are a free ride.  There's no such thing.


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## flacaltenn (Jun 30, 2013)

Star said:


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Don't really care how many blackouts Cal-ISO says they expect this summer. They make the same statement every year about this time. Many of my clients have left the state because they couldn't keep the lights on.. To get thru summer 2012 -- they had to cajole the navy in San Diego to "VOLUNTEER" to shut down operations FIRST when demand got tight. 

Perhaps you didn't notice the LARGER crisis that is coming from that article..



> A long-range future without the [Santa Onofre nuclear] plant is a more complicated scenario, largely because the state is also implementing new regulations on the way coastal power plants use seawater for cooling. San Onofre will loom large in *upcoming discussions on whether to retire, retrofit or repower 11 gas-fired coastal plants that supply about 11,000 megawatts of power  nearly five times what San Onofre generates*.



In their infinite wisdom, Cali energy dictators actually SABOTAGED those gas plants. Cutting the main gas inlets and otherwise damaging them to punish fossil fuels. 

Larger point is to THIS OP -- Cali operates on about a 15% "reserve". Meaning that they THINK they can buy enough power (mostly out of state) to cope with peak demands 15% above forecast peaks. Because of bad credit and other problems, that energy is usually committed to other buyers first. Leaving Cali in the dark.

* CERTAINLY, adding 35Mill or so PLUG-IN EVs is not in the cards for Cali anytime soon.. *

To make things worse out there.... 



> Will blackouts darken Calif. this summer? | CalWatchDog
> 
> Power Outages Have Risen 350 Percent Since 2007
> Power outages affecting 50,000 people or more have been growing over the past decade in North America.  But outages really took off from 2007 to 2011 when outages increased from 100 to 350 per year.
> ...


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## Star (Jul 1, 2013)

westwall said:


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Seriously?-seer-e-us-lee? SMH @ U

California Energy Shortage
The most recent date on this page is January 31, 2002 - not relevant to the discussion.

Subsequent Events-California's Energy Crisis
The most recent date on this page is March 21, 2002 - not relevant to the discussion.

Navy nears deal to help avoid Cal power shortages
This is over a year old - April 29 2012 - not relevant to the discussion.

California_Energy_Shortage_2-28-13
Excerpted from the excerpted WSJ post you posted -sheesh- "At Tuesday's meeting, experts cautioned that the state could begin seeing problems with reliability as soon as 2015." - not relevant to the discussion.

California Energy Crisis: Impacts, Causes & Remedies
This link is to the minutes of a congressional meeting held on June 20, 2001. - not relevant to the discussion.


Obviously, you don't fact check the crap you post, it turns out you don't read the links you post either. 
.


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## Katzndogz (Jul 1, 2013)

Heat related power failures.

Heat wave continues this weekend in Southern California - DailyBulletin.com

Rotating power outages.

https://www.sce.com/wps/portal/home...9nQSEh/?from=/info/poweroutages/outagemap.htm

Not that driving an EV will really save you money because there will be a tax on mileage to make up the difference.

California Proposes Tax On Driving


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## mamooth (Jul 1, 2013)

flacaltenn said:


> Filling that every 2nd day (for a measly 75 mile range) would add 50% to a households energy requirement
> 
> And households are 30% of the electric load.
> 
> ...


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## Billo_Really (Jul 1, 2013)

RGR said:


> So the argument is the lower lifecycle cost? The less emissions benefit? The economic benefit of using American produced and distributed fuels and the advantage this leads to in a foreign policy sense? The increased quiet of EVs over their fire breathing brethren? The morally questionable aspect of demanding a mode of transport fueled by the same stuff our parents used which somehow requires us to be as wasteful of valuable feedstock and environmentally ignorant!!
> 
> Now I am confused, if those things don't matter, what is the argument?


There's also maintenance costs, because only certain mechanics can work on them.


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## Old Rocks (Jul 1, 2013)

They are presently developing batteries that cost 1/2 or less than the present lithium ion, batteries with greater capacity and ability to be recharged thousands of times. As these come online, the cost of the cars will go down, and range will go up. At the same time, the cost of a solar installation, grid tied, is down to less than $2 a watt, for the whole system. At that cost, with an EV, you could make back to cost of the solar installation and the cost of the EV in ten years.


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## Old Rocks (Jul 1, 2013)

Billo_Really said:


> RGR said:
> 
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> > So the argument is the lower lifecycle cost? The less emissions benefit? The economic benefit of using American produced and distributed fuels and the advantage this leads to in a foreign policy sense? The increased quiet of EVs over their fire breathing brethren? The morally questionable aspect of demanding a mode of transport fueled by the same stuff our parents used which somehow requires us to be as wasteful of valuable feedstock and environmentally ignorant!!
> ...



This nation thrives on free enterprise. There will be many mechanic shops opening that specialize in the EV's as more of them come into use.


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## Star (Jul 1, 2013)

Billo_Really said:


> RGR said:
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> > So the argument is the lower lifecycle cost? The less emissions benefit? The economic benefit of using American produced and distributed fuels and the advantage this leads to in a foreign policy sense? The increased quiet of EVs over their fire breathing brethren? The morally questionable aspect of demanding a mode of transport fueled by the same stuff our parents used which somehow requires us to be as wasteful of valuable feedstock and environmentally ignorant!!
> ...


 

Maintenance costs? Riiiiight, contained in this link howstuffworks.com/will-electric-cars-require-more-maintenance is this quote: "...The truth is, though, that even the dealer is going to find it difficult to find a lot to charge you for when servicing a fairly new electric car. That's because of the simplicity of the electric motor that drives it. The motor contains perhaps half a dozen moving parts, as compared to the hundreds of working parts in an internal combustion engine. There's just not that much in an electric car motor that can wear out and, when it does, it'll be relatively simple to replace.

Chances are that by the time your new car's five-year warranty runs out, even the mechanic at your local garage will have learned how to service an electric motor and he probably won't charge all that much to do it, either. This isn't to say that there aren't other wear-and-tear issues relevant to an electric car that will be the same as with a gas-driven one, but expenses related to the motor will be trivial. Maintaining an electric car, according to some estimates, will cost about one-third the current cost of maintaining a gasoline-powered car. The bottom line is this: Electric cars require considerably less maintenance than gas-driven cars."


Duh, about ½ dozen moving parts in an EV equals about &#8531; the cost of maintaining a gas powered vehicle - Luddite-Rip Van Winkle-righties need to WTFU, quit making excuses and join the 21st century.
OTOH when you need an oil change for your EV it's going to cost an arm and a leg - huh?
.


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## Billo_Really (Jul 1, 2013)

Star said:


> Maintenance costs? Riiiiight, contained in this link howstuffworks.com/will-electric-cars-require-more-maintenance is this quote: "...The truth is, though, that even the dealer is going to find it difficult to find a lot to charge you for when servicing a fairly new electric car. That's because of the simplicity of the electric motor that drives it. The motor contains perhaps half a dozen moving parts, as compared to the hundreds of working parts in an internal combustion engine. There's just not that much in an electric car motor that can wear out and, when it does, it'll be relatively simple to replace.
> 
> Chances are that by the time your new car's five-year warranty runs out, even the mechanic at your local garage will have learned how to service an electric motor and he probably won't charge all that much to do it, either. This isn't to say that there aren't other wear-and-tear issues relevant to an electric car that will be the same as with a gas-driven one, but expenses related to the motor will be trivial. Maintaining an electric car, according to some estimates, will cost about one-third the current cost of maintaining a gasoline-powered car. The bottom line is this: Electric cars require considerably less maintenance than gas-driven cars."
> 
> ...


It's not just the servicing, because electric motors do wear out.  Every so often, you need to replace the bushings around the stator coil.  It's the troubleshooting that is the deal.  Not too many mechanics know how to troubleshoot complex electric circuits.

Don't get me wrong, I'm a fan of electric cars.  As soon as I can afford one, I'm getting one!


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## flacaltenn (Jul 1, 2013)

mamooth said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > Filling that every 2nd day (for a measly 75 mile range) would add 50% to a households energy requirement
> ...



That example was for a measly batterywagon with a 75mi range. No general landslide of adoption is gonna occur with that restriction.. Double that range and you are raise the PEAKS of residential grid draw even higher. THAT's IF --- folks remain content with it taking 8 hours to charge a measly 75 mile range vehicle. YOU -- have no control over how big the battery load gets or how fast folks decide to charge or much of the battery they decide to charge. Without of course demanding access to every circuit in their home and turning off their fridge and security lighting to compensate as one of your minions suggested in another thread.

If fast charge technology were to be a feature of this battery hysteria -- then PEAK load demand could easily TRIPLE or QUADRUPLE the current residential load and the load curve can get a lot more "spikier" and chaotic. Right now -- folks have an option to wire their garage for either 120V or 240V service for car charging.. You have no control over which one they pick. 240V requires roughly twice the grid loading of 110V during the charge.

Furthermore, on a typical Cali summer day --- grid load at 10PM is approx 80% of daytime peak. FORCING folks to charge all at night would wipe out that difference.. Thus requiring the grid generation to operate near capacity all day long without a reprieve and WITHOUT the benefit of any solar capacity on that grid. There is nothing "SMART" about forcing a grid into that regime. The only real benefit of commercial solar production right now is to handle daytime peaker requirements. So that MAX capacity of fossil plants can be up to 20% lower.. You would blow away that niche advantage of solar.

Imagine the chaos of a nightime blackout when folks wake up to find they have no way to get to work.. 

Seems to me that all you are offering is the ability of the government to micromanage your energy use with your "smart grid" snooping devices... Wait til you get the bill for that.


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## Star (Jul 2, 2013)

flacaltenn said:


> mamooth said:
> 
> 
> > flacaltenn said:
> ...


 

If an 8 hours for 75 mile charge is your main concern, rest easy. The average commute to work for Americans is 12.6 miles each way then-----then if you want to do some shopping, *almost every Krogers* in the country has or soon will have charging stations. Based on your formula of; an 8 hour charge equals 75 miles, it should take about an hour to charge your EV while doing your shopping (*if you live in the state of Washington, 25 miles worth of electricity will cost you way less than a buck, a comparable amount of gasoline - a little less than $4 bucks*). 

I've always said, Republicans hate investing in America - Republicans have a choice, resist EV's so they can continue to support the fungible profits of people who hate us or-----or Republicans can look for alternatives to supporting people that hate us - should be an easy choice? 


Travel to work has historically defined peak hour travel demand and in turn influenced the design of transportation infrastructure. Work trips are a critical factor to transit planning and help to determine corridors served and assess the level of transit services available.

The average automobile commuter spends 22.8 minutes commuting a one-way distance of 12.6 miles; bus commuters travel... 
.


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## tjvh (Jul 2, 2013)

whitehall said:


> When will the radical left stop whining about only controlling 2/3 of the federal government? Republicans have nothing to do with the manufacture of electric cars but it seems that limousine liberals think everybody should be able to shell out 50-75 grand for a toy that can only travel 30 miles without a charge. For some reason radical liberals have gotten it into their pretty little empty heads that taxpayers should finance electric charge stations for the convenience of rich libs.



My Mother's condo is trying to do exactly that, use monthly dues from *all* the condo owners to pay for a *select few* to have EV's in the parking garage. I guess that's what liberals mean by "fair share".


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## flacaltenn (Jul 2, 2013)

Star said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > mamooth said:
> ...



For folks who can afford a 2nd or 3rd car for short commutes --- that's great. 

I'm glad that you feel we DON'T need to conserve electricity on the grid in order to save the planet.. And that adding these massive loads makes perfect enviro sense when we're being badgered to conserve every last watt.  

I'm also glad that you realize the government really doesn't NEED that 80 cents/gal of road and fuel tax that's missing in your economic argument. We should drop that IMMEDIATELY before the states and the FED discover that they need to shift the responsibility to all those plug-in fossil fuel powered battery wagons.. 

The eGallon comparison is a conscious effort to confuse the consumer. You don't compare mileage to the "average" gas automobile. Folks who are sensitive to fuel mileage can do their OWN calculations against fuel efficient gas cars -- not an imaginary one that DOE invents for you... 
Once you are stuck in traffic coming home from Kroger in sub-freezing weather with the heater on --- you'll wish you had done the math yourself.

Have at it.. Knock yourself out. BETTER, more ACCEPTABLE transport solutions are coming soon -- and all this plug-in madness will eventually be exposed as "bad judgement" as the true costs and societal impacts emerge.  
A hydrogen fueled transport sector solves MANY of these issues completely. AND is a better environmental solution by far..


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## Old Rocks (Jul 2, 2013)

First, I have don't know of a single person that I work with that has only one vehicle. Almost all have a car, and a van or pickup. Second, some have already purchased EV's, either a Leaf or a Volt, and have realized significant savings on their fuel costs. 

Third, I see no hydrogen infrastructure at all for anyone buying such a vehicle in most places. And hydrogen is not that easy to make at home. Where as virtually every home has electricity to it. No, hydrogen is a non-starter.


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## flacaltenn (Jul 2, 2013)

Old Rocks said:


> First, I have don't know of a single person that I work with that has only one vehicle. Almost all have a car, and a van or pickup. Second, some have already purchased EV's, either a Leaf or a Volt, and have realized significant savings on their fuel costs.
> 
> Third, I see no hydrogen infrastructure at all for anyone buying such a vehicle in most places. And hydrogen is not that easy to make at home. Where as virtually every home has electricity to it. No, hydrogen is a non-starter.



We don't get to make that judgement. Fuel cells can work off nat gas as an interim. 

The hydrogen infrastructure can be built much more cheaply and quickly than an entire grid overhaul. *Ask any investor whether they'd be interested in fuel refining where the energy is free and the raw material cost pennies --- AND there is no need for hideously punishing regulation..* 

Or maybe they want to invest in a grid and electrical generation upgrade? Go on --- I'll wait.. 

You don't see it GoldiRocks because you ain't been paying attention.. You've been jonesing so much over batterywagons and solar that you ain't come up for air... 

European Union Hydrogen Highway






Skeptics need to at least know this site exists.. 
Hydrogen Highway

And just because you want to produce it at HOME --- Guess what baby pants ???? 

Under "Hydrogen Station" in the Wiki... 



> Hydrogen home stations come in different types.
> 
> A solar powered water electrolysing hydrogen home station, is made of solar cells, power converter, water purifier, electrolyzer, piping, hydrogen purifier,[22] oxygen purifier, compressor,[23] pressure vessels[24] and a hydrogen outlet.[25]
> 
> ...



Feel better? Grannies still in the energy biz.. In fact, why do car companies need an extensive hydrogen hiway for if for $500 -- you can make your own at home. AND you don't need a ton of batteries to store your solar energy !!

You're missing out on the future GoldiRocks...


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## mamooth (Jul 3, 2013)

I'd be interested to see how a home system can work for $500. Small compressors capable of 5000 psi, such as for SCUBA or paintball, run $3000+, and uncompressed hydrogen is worthless.


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## flacaltenn (Jul 3, 2013)

mamooth said:


> I'd be interested to see how a home system can work for $500. Small compressors capable of 5000 psi, such as for SCUBA or paintball, run $3000+, and uncompressed hydrogen is worthless.




Article below says it produces and stores only enough for 100 mi fill-up at a time. 

So I'm guessing that limited volume and quantity helps in the compression.. That's a pretty small amount of gas actually... 

8 technologies for a green future - February 1, 2007


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## Old Rocks (Jul 3, 2013)

Hydrogen home stations come in different types.

A solar powered water electrolysing hydrogen home station, is made of solar cells, power converter, water purifier, electrolyzer, piping, hydrogen purifier,[22] oxygen purifier, compressor,[23] pressure vessels[24] and a hydrogen outlet.[25]

A more complete home station would combine the solar home system on the inlet with natural gas and a reformer[26] and from the storage tank to a fuel cell microCHP system to produce heat and electricity for the house and the excess electricity to the grid to become part as a distributed generation resource.
Integrated systems that convert solar energy photoelectrochemically are more efficient than splitting water.[27]

January 2007 - Australia's CSIRO has developed a hydrogen homestation based on electricity from standard rooftop solar panels or a home wind turbine with an electrolyzer including compression and storage ready for use, the size of a filing cabinet, the expected market price would be $500 according to Sukhvinder Badwal. Extensive testing of the system will be going on for the next 2 years at RMIT University in Melbourne.[28][29]

Honda's Home Energy Station IV is in testing phase.

*And if you get a leak in an enclosed space, the same danger as natural gas for an explosion. 

Photovoltaic solar, many times simpler, and far less costly. Hydrogen is not going to be competative.*


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## Star (Jul 4, 2013)

flacaltenn said:


> mamooth said:
> 
> 
> > I'd be interested to see how a home system can work for $500. Small compressors capable of 5000 psi, such as for SCUBA or paintball, run $3000+, and uncompressed hydrogen is worthless.
> ...


 

The Home hydrogen fueling station is a great idea but unless we get a technological lightening strike it looks like we're going to have to wait a while - maybe quite a while for it. In the mean time...

...I for one am all in for "all of the above" energy solutions. Hydrogen may be an answer to a future energy question, but like all energy sources, hydrogen is not the only answer to all energy questions and at this point hydrogen is just barely more efficient than the inefficient gas engine. 


Below is an efficiency chart:


A comparison of efficiency between a hydrogen car, an electric car and a gas engine car shows the efficiency of energy conversion. For instance, a typical gas engine turns about 20% of the gasoline energy into motion. So a gas engine is 20% efficient.​ 
The efficiency of a battery is calculated by dividing how much energy comes out of the battery by how much energy was used to charge it (power out / power in). Batteries in use for this application may typically see a charging efficiency of 75% (power in), and a discharge efficiency of 80% (power out). The product of these efficiencies is 60% (75% x 80% = 60%). This means that 60% of the energy used to charge the battery is used to power the motor. For the sake of this exercise I'll assume the electric motors in the examples are like that of the Tesla Roadster. The motor in the Tesla Roadster is about 95% efficient. That's insane!​ 



​ 
The hydrogen electric vehicle is similar to an electric car. Instead of storing electricity in a battery, it is stored in tanks of hydrogen and oxygen. Electricity "charges the battery" by electrically separating water into hydrogen and oxygen. This process is called electrolysis. At best, the process is about 50% efficient. And converting the hydrogen and oxygen back into electricity is also about 50% efficient. The end result is a vehicle that isn't any more efficient than a gasoline powered car.​ 
See the rest of the article *here*.​ 
.


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## flacaltenn (Jul 4, 2013)

Star said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > mamooth said:
> ...



Your chart for plug-in EVs is wrong and biased as hell. The power coming out of the wall is NOT 100% efficient. In fact, it is not very efficient at all when you consider grid losses and generation losses. That's part of the problem here. Too much hysteria and not enough thought and engineering. 

I don't care what powers your wall socket.. It's using material to MAKE energy and it's wasting a bunch of it. A wind farm AVERAGES about 35% of its rated capacity. And some days it has ZERO efficiency. A coal plant burns so many BTUs of coal and produces considerably less equivalent energy.

Most hydrogen would be made "off grid".. Not plugged into the grid and it's limited generation. And efficiency in that case --- doesn't matter economically as much since there is no penalty for "averaging" production. The grid on the other hand has to balance generation and load EVERY minute of operation. 

Refining hydrogen puts wind and solar to work in the most optimum way.. WITHOUT having to propose Rube Goldberg storage mechanisms to balance out the instaneous flaky characteristics.


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