# 'Pay Teachers More'



## midcan5 (Mar 13, 2011)

My wife teaches, she could have done just about anything in the business world but in the olden times - said facetiously - women taught, were mothers and home makers before returning to teaching. Because I have worked in corporate America, we live well. But if you are a teacher and bread winner, another old term, you'd have a tough go of it in America today. If we want a nation of educated citizens we must value education and pay for it, seems simple. 

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/13/opinion/13kristof.html?_r=1&hp

By Nicholas D. Kristof

"From the debates in Wisconsin and elsewhere about public sector unions, you might get the impression that were going bust because teachers are overpaid.

Thats a pernicious fallacy. A basic educational challenge is not that teachers are raking it in, but that they are underpaid. If we want to compete with other countries, and chip away at poverty across America, then we need to pay teachers more so as to attract better people into the profession."

http://www.usmessageboard.com/educa...-disaster-for-higher-education-in-nevada.html


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## Stephanie (Mar 13, 2011)

Good grief, whatever happened to a Teacher just wanted to be one to MAKE A DIFFERENCE in a child's LIFE.

now it's ALL ABOUT MONEY.

As if more MONEY is going to make them BETTER teachers or make the students learn more.

Teachers don't FEEL they make enough, they can FIND another profession that PAYS MORE.

that's what the rest of US would do.

sheesh


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## Mini 14 (Mar 13, 2011)

Unfortunately for all of us, your wife is the exception to the rule.

Those who can, do.
Those who can't, teach.

It is no longer about teaching for the majority of teachers in our systems. If it were, Wisconsin would never have been in the news.


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## Mr. H. (Mar 13, 2011)

Hats off to Mrs. can. 

My wife taught elementary for several years at nominal pay, but the health insurance was a sweet deal. 

Long story short - she was denied tenure. No reason given, none required. It certainly wasn't for lack of funds- the district has one of the best balance sheets in the state. And the wife was one of the best - not my words but the words of the principal and administrators. 

Since then we moved to a larger town, larger district. The best available position has been as classroom aid, caring for two developmentally disabled kids. The insurance plan is still there, but the pay is little better than minimum wage. 

The whole experience left us very disillusioned with the entire teaching system. I say "system" because that's exactly what it is- a system. Favoritism, nepotism, cronyism. And you know as well as I do, midcan, that there are terrible ineffective teachers out there WITH tenure. It is nearly impossible to get rid of them. 

I admire the profession, but I detest the system. It needs to be broken down and rebuilt, and the place to start is by dismantling the unions.


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## chanel (Mar 13, 2011)

That stinks for your wife Mr. H. and I do believe the system is flawed.  However, without tenure or the teacher's union, your wife could have been sacked for the same reasons after ten years.  Just when she'd be making a decent wage and perfecting her craft.

This is what I worry about.  I have a MA +30 which puts me higher up on the pay scale.  Although my evaluations have all been stellar, I can envision the day when I could be replaced with a younger, cheaper model.  New teachers rarely question the system and principals love robots.

And as for Stephanie's post:  Teachers, not unlike any other profession, work for a living.  You can't pay a mortgage on a child's smile.  Sheez.

Here in NJ the avg. teacher salary is $55K and despite the ridiculous claims that they make more than the private sector, the fact is they make 25% less than other college educated professionals in this state.  We are being asked to "give back" $7,000 without complaint.  I can afford it.  I have a husband.  Many of my friends do not.


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## Stephanie (Mar 13, 2011)

chanel said:


> That stinks for your wife Mr. H. and I do believe the system is flawed.  However, without tenure or the teacher's union, your wife could have been sacked for the same reasons after ten years.  Just when she'd be making a decent wage and perfecting her craft.
> 
> This is what I worry about.  I have a MA +30 which puts me higher up on the pay scale.  Although my evaluations have all been stellar, I can envision the day when I could be replaced with a younger, cheaper model.  New teachers rarely question the system and principals love robots.
> 
> ...



My dear, many people live ok making a lot less. And they aren't complaining all the time about it.
55,000 is a damn good salary for working 9months out of the year. I'm sure the regular Joe or Jane who is making that salary, has to work 12 MONTHS out of the year.

As I said, if that isn't enough money for them as teachers, they can look for other professions. Many people do it all the time.


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## boedicca (Mar 13, 2011)

We do pay teachers more, and spend more than double in inflation adjusted dollars per pupil than we did 40 years ago.   What's the result?   Declining literacy and math skills while the education system has been modified to serve teachers and administrators at the expense of students.

Spending EVEN MORE on ineffectual teachers is just going to make things worse.


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## chanel (Mar 13, 2011)

Yep.  People who work in 7/11 make a lot less.  And people who live in OK make a lot less than people who live in NJ.  And yes, teachers have summers off because that's how schools work in this country.

The average home price in my community is $300K.  How about OK?

Time will tell.   When teachers take your advice and leave for other professions, we'll see who fills their shoes.  Maybe they can outsource the children.


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## Stephanie (Mar 13, 2011)

chanel said:


> Yep.  People who work in 7/11 make a lot less.  And people who live in OK make a lot less than people who live in NJ.  And yes, teachers have summers off because that's how schools work in this country.
> 
> The average home price in my community is $300K.  How about OK?
> 
> Time will tell.   When teachers take your advice and leave for other professions, we'll see who fills their shoes.  Maybe they can outsource the children.



A lot of people wish they could AFFORD a house that cost, 300,000.
sorry dear. I'm not going to argue with you. take care.


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## JamesInFlorida (Mar 13, 2011)

I think the problem is the results that the schools are getting. I think most people would be willing to pay teachers more-if students performed better. 

I personally have no problem throwing money at teachers-but not blindly. I think our education system needs to be revamped. A good compromise is to pay teachers more, but get rid of tenure. Getting rid of tenure will naturally make is so that the best teachers are in the classrooms (or at least the worst teachers are out), and by raising salaries you add more incentive to potential teachers.

I don't think education is something that can be fixed just by paying more money-but I also don't think GOOD teachers get paid enough-bad teachers are overpaid and should be fired.


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## Defiant1 (Mar 13, 2011)

chanel said:


> Yep.  People who work in 7/11 make a lot less.  And people who live in OK make a lot less than people who live in NJ.  And yes, teachers have summers off because that's how schools work in this country.
> 
> The average home price in my community is $300K.  How about OK?
> 
> Time will tell.   When teachers take your advice and leave for other professions, we'll see who fills their shoes.  Maybe they can outsource the children.



Choices, choices, choices.


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## JamesInFlorida (Mar 13, 2011)

Stephanie said:


> chanel said:
> 
> 
> > Yep.  People who work in 7/11 make a lot less.  And people who live in OK make a lot less than people who live in NJ.  And yes, teachers have summers off because that's how schools work in this country.
> ...



Depends on where you live. 300K isn't the same in New York City, as it is in Springfield, Illinois.


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## chanel (Mar 13, 2011)

Stephanie said:


> chanel said:
> 
> 
> > Yep.  People who work in 7/11 make a lot less.  And people who live in OK make a lot less than people who live in NJ.  And yes, teachers have summers off because that's how schools work in this country.
> ...



That's why many (including myself) work second jobs.  What's your solution?  Have teachers live in their cars or ship the 10,000+ kids out of state?


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## AquaAthena (Mar 13, 2011)

Stephanie said:


> chanel said:
> 
> 
> > That stinks for your wife Mr. H. and I do believe the system is flawed.  However, without tenure or the teacher's union, your wife could have been sacked for the same reasons after ten years.  Just when she'd be making a decent wage and perfecting her craft.
> ...



A former hubby of mine, holding a MA in music education, started teaching 36 weeks a year at a local middle-school and his beginning salary was 47K. He had about 4 weeks off a year in addition to those nine months, if you include Christmas and Spring vacations and paid holidays and other days. He worked about 8 months a year and spent his vacation time touring the world as a musician, making less money but doing something that he loved and that brought us together in the first place....making music.


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## chanel (Mar 13, 2011)

It can be a wonderful job.  Or a really tough one depending on where you work.  But for anyone who says "it's easy", I challenge them to spend a day substitute teaching.  Just one day.

And if you love it, then step up to the plate.  There should be quite a few openings within the next five years.  Someone has to do it.


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## Stephanie (Mar 13, 2011)

chanel said:


> Stephanie said:
> 
> 
> > chanel said:
> ...



yeah that's what I think, they should go live in their cars.
I work for a school and I can tell you, I DON'T make anything close to a teachers salary and I probably work twice as hard, gotta feed the little children breakfast and lunch and after school snack for some. And not only do I work two jobs, ( I do so because I want to stay on at the school and I love my job and the kids.), I also work a third job on the weekends. If I didn't have other jobs, I would HAVE TO FIND something for the SUMMER months out of school because I DON'T GET PAID FOR THAT....
 so SORRY DEAR,  you're not going to get much sympathy from me.


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## boedicca (Mar 13, 2011)

With the internet and online education, more students could get better educations for far lower costs.  No big complexes of building to maintain.  Lower administrative and overhead costs.  The teachers could live anywhere, i.e., where their salary enables them to live a good lifestyle on a moderate income.

It's time to change the modality of delivering education.


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## chanel (Mar 13, 2011)

Boedicca - with all due respect., school is a hell of a lot more than academics.  I shudder to think of the social skills of a generation of kids raised behind a computer.  We are already suffering the effects of those who do it for hours in their free time.

The students I teach are basically on their own.  The only structure and discipline (and meals) they get is at school.  

I am picturing thousands of students in their PJs looking at youtube while they are supposed to be learning.  Good Lord - they would never brush their teeth!


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## boedicca (Mar 13, 2011)

Social skills do not have to depend upon regimented schools designed to turn out compliant factory workers.

Parents of homeschoolers find "socializing" opportunities for their kids via sports and other activities.  With less money going to pay for failing public schools, parents would have more resources for extra curricular activities (which many public schools are eliminating anyway).


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## code1211 (Mar 13, 2011)

midcan5 said:


> My wife teaches, she could have done just about anything in the business world but in the olden times - said facetiously - women taught, were mothers and home makers before returning to teaching. Because I have worked in corporate America, we live well. But if you are a teacher and bread winner, another old term, you'd have a tough go of it in America today. If we want a nation of educated citizens we must value education and pay for it, seems simple.
> 
> http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/13/opinion/13kristof.html?_r=1&hp
> 
> ...




That's an interesting idea and is based on absolutely nothing.

Right now the highest paid teachers in the industrialized world are teaching in the Public Schools in the USA.

Those teachers are producing a product, test scores achieved by their students of the 12th grade, that rank 19th in the industrialized world right behind the Czech Republic.

Our teachers already are the highest paid on the planet and their work is substandard.

Our private school teachers are paid less and produce a higher quality product.  

Since paying higher wages has not helped to produce higher test scores, what do you propose the amount of increase to be to produce higher scores?

In the Czech Republic, the teachers are paid about 1/5 the wage of teachers in the USA and produce better results.


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## chanel (Mar 13, 2011)

Private school teachers work with higher quality "product".   And children are not widgets.

More money is not the solution.  But neither is teacher bashing.  Guess what?  There are excellent public schools in this country.  But you'd never know it today.


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## chanel (Mar 13, 2011)

boedicca said:


> Social skills do not have to depend upon regimented schools designed to turn out compliant factory workers.
> 
> Parents of homeschoolers find "socializing" opportunities for their kids via sports and other activities.  With less money going to pay for failing public schools, parents would have more resources for extra curricular activities (which many public schools are eliminating anyway).




'Parents of homeschoolers".  My guess is that children that are successfully homeschooled have parental supervision and involvement.  Guess what?  Half the kids in this country are being raised in single parent homes and there are many in two parent homes, that get no supervision or support either.

I'm a pragmatist.  If those parents were involved in the first place, we wouldn't even be having this conversation today.  Many teachers are serving as substitute parents, counselors, social workers, friends, and JANITORS - trying to clean up other people's messes.  That's reality.  

The difference between outstanding public schools and failing ones is predominantly influenced by socio-economics.  No better example than NJ - home to the best and worst schools in the country.  Without acknowledging that fact, the entire conversation is moot.


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## Stephanie (Mar 13, 2011)

So talking about the salaries of teachers is now called, teacher bashing.

good grief. or to say, we want them to go sleep in their cars.

the friggen DRAMA.


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## Defiant1 (Mar 13, 2011)

chanel said:


> boedicca said:
> 
> 
> > Social skills do not have to depend upon regimented schools designed to turn out compliant factory workers.
> ...



This is what has to stop.  We cannot afford to raise every child in this country on taxpayer dollars.

We are supposed to pay for schools not day care centers.


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## KissMy (Mar 13, 2011)

I am all for hiring new teachers & paying them more. That is the opposite views of teachers unions. They want to keep bad teachers with seniority. Unions jack up the old crappy teachers pay in their last year before retirement so they will get 100K per year retired. We spend all of our money so retired teachers can live better than the working teachers. Unions lay off new superior teachers & don't pay these new teachers well.


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## chanel (Mar 13, 2011)

Stephanie said:


> chanel said:
> 
> 
> > Yep.  People who work in 7/11 make a lot less.  And people who live in OK make a lot less than people who live in NJ.  And yes, teachers have summers off because that's how schools work in this country.
> ...



A lot of people in NJ DO AFFORD a house in NJ.  When teacher bashing (I mean talking salaries) it's best not to generalize.



> Estimated median household income in 2009: $50,184 ($41,591 in 1999)
> This county:	$50184
> New Jersey:	$68342
> 
> ...



I sense some envy in your posts for those high paying jobs with great vacations.  Why don't you go back to school Stephanie?


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## Provocateur (Mar 13, 2011)

chanel said:


> Yep.  People who work in 7/11 make a lot less.  And people who live in OK make a lot less than people who live in NJ.  And yes, teachers have summers off because that's how schools work in this country.
> 
> The average home price in my community is $300K.  How about OK?
> 
> Time will tell.   When teachers take your advice and leave for other professions, we'll see who fills their shoes.  Maybe they can outsource the children.



As of March, 2011 where I live:

 ~$529K median.  It was in the mid 700s before the bubble burst.


The teachers start under 40,000.

You can look at your region to see what the teachers are paid:  Salary.com - Average Salary Information, Job Search, Education Opportunities and Career Advice

You can also find median home prices, etc. at Stats about all US cities - real estate, relocation info, house prices, home value estimator, recent sales, cost of living, crime, race, income, photos, education, maps, weather, houses, schools, neighborhoods, and more


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## chanel (Mar 13, 2011)

Good info.  It just amazes me that we are even discussing this.  I grew up in an upper middle class area where teachers were revered.  They were paid well and "put out a good product".  Of course, it had nothing to do with the fact that we were good kids, our parents were highly educated, and they supported the schools any way they could.


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## boedicca (Mar 13, 2011)

I grew up in a middle and working class area, attending the local schools with most of the other kids in the neighborhood.   The teachers were respected because our parents held us to proper standards.    Such standards do not depend upon economic status; they depend upon VALUES.

We have been spending more per pupil, with very poor return:






CARPE DIEM: Education Spending Doubled, Stagnant Test Scores


Arguing for more teacher pay is pointless.  It's not the pay that's the problem.


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## Provocateur (Mar 13, 2011)

boedicca said:


> I grew up in a middle and working class area, attending the local schools with most of the other kids in the neighborhood.   The teachers were respected because our parents held us to proper standards.    Such standards do not depend upon economic status; they depend upon VALUES.
> 
> We have been spending more per pupil, with very poor return:
> 
> ...



I really wonder about that graph.  I've seen it many times.  CA is $8736.  Where are they spending over $11,000?

And looking at your graph, it occurs to me that the 70s was when women burned their bras and said that staying at home was oppressive and demeaning.

But I agree, throwing money at the problem isn't the answer.  Unfortunately, I don't think there is an answer.

I would like them to go after the top administrative positions, personally.  I don't think teacher wages are outrageous.


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## boedicca (Mar 13, 2011)

Provocateur said:


> boedicca said:
> 
> 
> > I grew up in a middle and working class area, attending the local schools with most of the other kids in the neighborhood.   The teachers were respected because our parents held us to proper standards.    Such standards do not depend upon economic status; they depend upon VALUES.
> ...





Your figure is cooked; I suspect it is based upon the "Comparable Wage Index".  It is adjusted for a comparable wage index.

Actual per pupil spending in CA was over $9.7K in 2008.

California comparison

And from the source link, other expenses, such as benefits for current retirees and school construction costs are excluded (the state also uses this little fiction in its stats).

Annual Financial Data - Financial (CA Dept of Education)


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## chanel (Mar 13, 2011)

Education costs have gone up for many reasons. And scores have gone down for many of the same reasons. The big ticket item is special education. Mainstreaming has brought down the scores. We spend 5 mil a years on out of district placements for handicapped and adjudicated youth. It's the law. We spend 1 mil on instructional aides. It's the law. About 5 grand a week is spent on tutoring kids who have been suspended. It's the law. We have psychologists, social workers, substance abuse counselors. OT and PT therapists, ESL instructors, sign language interpreters, specialized wheelchairs, communication devices, etc. etc. Yeah. It's expensive.

Soon NJ will require Bullying Specialists in every school. Any politician who would dare raise this issue would be committing political suicide. Cutting services to handicapped children will NEVER be on the table.

No amount of money is going to get a fetal alcohol child with a 65 IQ to pass the state test. But that's not the only reason he's in school.


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## boedicca (Mar 13, 2011)

Good points.

The advanced programs for smart kids in CA have been largely replaced with Special Ed.   One of my best friends is a school psychologist.  She has many horror stories about the disruption and waste of resources caused by ADA kids.  The worst one I recall was an autistic boy who was allowed to sit in class and masturbate.  His parents were so lawyered up that the gutless wonders in Administration refused to remove him.


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## Intense (Mar 13, 2011)

midcan5 said:


> My wife teaches, she could have done just about anything in the business world but in the olden times - said facetiously - women taught, were mothers and home makers before returning to teaching. Because I have worked in corporate America, we live well. But if you are a teacher and bread winner, another old term, you'd have a tough go of it in America today. If we want a nation of educated citizens we must value education and pay for it, seems simple.
> 
> http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/13/opinion/13kristof.html?_r=1&hp
> 
> ...



Living Wage??? Yes. Jack-pot, buy a Lottery Ticket and take your chances like the rest of us.


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## code1211 (Mar 13, 2011)

boedicca said:


> Provocateur said:
> 
> 
> > boedicca said:
> ...




In Indianapolis, it costs about $11,000/year to educate a student in Public Schools.  It's a tad over half of that in private schools.

The Governor, Mitch Danials is trying to adjust teachers' pay according to the results produced.  The NEA and state teachers are rabidly opposed to this.  Pay for the level of quality produced?  Who ever heard of such a thing?  Apparently not our teachers.

This is a real world measure of _the_ critical success indicator and the teachers are against it.  Instead they wish to be paid on length of service and number of degrees.  The only measure of success is whether or not the children are learning.

One might suppose they feel that it would be a better job without the children.


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## chanel (Mar 13, 2011)

boedicca said:


> Good points.
> 
> The advanced programs for smart kids in CA have been largely replaced with Special Ed.   One of my best friends is a school psychologist.  She has many horror stories about the disruption and waste of resources caused by ADA kids.  The worst one I recall was an autistic boy who was allowed to sit in class and masturbate.  His parents were so lawyered up that the gutless wonders in Administration refused to remove him.



OMG! I think I'd quit. What about the rights of the other kids?


At my bro's school they had a parent claim that cigarette smoking was a "manifestation of his disability" because the school could not legally permit him to smoke, they hired a full time aide to walk him to class and make sure he didn't leave school to have a smoke.

There was an article in our local paper about a lawsuit against our district for 600K. The parent had recently moved here and wanted her son to work with the same in home agency he had in their previous town. Because we had no such program, the mother wanted the district to provide a satellite office for this agency and pay for all its expenses. It was a sob story, but I actually contacted the writer and asked of she had mistakenly added an extra zero. She said the article was correct - 600K for one kid.


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## Stephanie (Mar 13, 2011)

chanel said:


> Stephanie said:
> 
> 
> > chanel said:
> ...



Why don't you move to a cheaper state to live and stop your whining. And listening to you whine I don't envy you, that's for sure.
The job I do is just as important as yours dear and I enjoy it. From hearing you speak I'd say you DON'T ENJOY your job anymore and is just looking for money, so why don't you go find another PROFESSION.


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## Stephanie (Mar 13, 2011)

chanel said:


> Good info.  It just amazes me that we are even discussing this.  I grew up in an upper middle class area where teachers were revered.  They were paid well and "put out a good product".  Of course, it had nothing to do with the fact that we were good kids, our parents were highly educated, and they supported the schools any way they could.



So that's your problem, you don't feel you're being Revered enough?
brother.


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## Flopper (Mar 13, 2011)

Stephanie said:


> Good grief, whatever happened to a Teacher just wanted to be one to MAKE A DIFFERENCE in a child's LIFE.
> 
> now it's ALL ABOUT MONEY.
> 
> ...


Teachers definitely do find other professions that pay more.  I sure did.  Getting out of teaching was the smartest move I ever made.  I must admit I still miss the kids, but putting up with long hours, mediocre pay, no chance for advance, and indifferent parents was not worth it to me.


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## Stephanie (Mar 13, 2011)

Flopper said:


> Stephanie said:
> 
> 
> > Good grief, whatever happened to a Teacher just wanted to be one to MAKE A DIFFERENCE in a child's LIFE.
> ...



That was a good move for you then.
People change careers all the time, it's not easy sometimes, but it can be done.


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## Mr. H. (Mar 13, 2011)

chanel said:


> It can be a wonderful job.  Or a really tough one depending on where you work.  But for anyone who says "it's easy", I challenge them to spend a day substitute teaching.  Just one day.
> 
> And if you love it, then step up to the plate.  There should be quite a few openings within the next five years.  Someone has to do it.



Roger that. The wife was always bringing work home, grading papers or working on lesson plans. Then there was the occasional call from a parent. She'd often put in 10-12 hrs./day including all the extra stuff.

I remember my first few weeks substitute teaching. It was all I could do to come home and collapse. I felt like I got hit by a truck. It got a little easier as time went by, but there were always some very challenging days.


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## Flopper (Mar 13, 2011)

Stephanie said:


> Good grief, whatever happened to a Teacher just wanted to be one to MAKE A DIFFERENCE in a child's LIFE.
> 
> now it's ALL ABOUT MONEY.
> 
> As if more MONEY is going to make them BETTER teachers or make the students learn more.



I think you hit on a big problem in education.  Too many people, think of teaching as a calling such as entering the ministry, but for most teachers it is about money, at least just as much so as any other job.  You're right, money will not make better teachers, doctors, lawyers, or engineers, but what it will do, is attract better qualified people into the field and keep them there.  Ideally, Colleges of Education should have so many applicants that they can pick and choose like the Colleges of Law, Medicine, and Engineering.


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## Flopper (Mar 13, 2011)

code1211 said:


> midcan5 said:
> 
> 
> > My wife teaches, she could have done just about anything in the business world but in the olden times - said facetiously - women taught, were mothers and home makers before returning to teaching. Because I have worked in corporate America, we live well. But if you are a teacher and bread winner, another old term, you'd have a tough go of it in America today. If we want a nation of educated citizens we must value education and pay for it, seems simple.
> ...



No, we don't have the highest paid teachers in the world.
South Korea
Germany
Netherlands
Hong Kong
England
Australia
Finland
Singapore
Belgium
All pay more than the US.
Compared to other countries, U.S. flunks in teacher pay

Comparing test scores between the Czech Republic and the US is like comparing apples and oranges.  In the Czech Republic and a number of other countries, after graduating from elementary schools, students must pass an entrance exam before they are allowed to enter high school.  Students that don't pass and there are many, enter vocational schools.   To make the comparison even more ridiculous, the students in these countries don't take the same test.
Czech Republic - Educational System

I don't know how you compare private and public school achievement because private schools do not use the same tests as public schools.

Private schools can pick and choose their students where public schools must accept all students.  They don't have the huge financial burden of educating special ed. kids, second language kids, problem kids, or any kids that will be a financial burden to the school.  They leave this to the public schools so of course they are going to have lower costs per pupil.


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## Flopper (Mar 13, 2011)

Provocateur said:


> boedicca said:
> 
> 
> > I grew up in a middle and working class area, attending the local schools with most of the other kids in the neighborhood.   The teachers were respected because our parents held us to proper standards.    Such standards do not depend upon economic status; they depend upon VALUES.
> ...


In 2003 in Florida, the cost was about $8400.


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## mnbasketball (Mar 13, 2011)

MINI saysUnfortunately for all of us, your wife is the exception to the rule.

Those who can, do.
Those who can't, teach.

It is no longer about teaching for the majority of teachers in our systems. If it were, Wisconsin would never have been in the news. 





and the logical thing to do is get rid of teachers and replace them with people who don't have the qualification or history, and this will somehow make it better.

And MINI I will put any teacher up against you in any faze of our working society and I will bet your on the bottom of the two.

You people always want something for nothing from others but think you should be at the top of the ladder in wages.


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## Article 15 (Mar 13, 2011)

Stephanie said:


> chanel said:
> 
> 
> > Stephanie said:
> ...



So you're a disgruntled lunch lady.


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## Polk (Mar 14, 2011)

In education, as in every thing, you get what you pay more. The reason our teacher pool isn't great is because we don't pay teachers very much.


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## Flopper (Mar 14, 2011)

Article 15 said:


> Stephanie said:
> 
> 
> > chanel said:
> ...


School lunchroom workers don&#8217;t make what teachers make because it&#8217;s a lot easier to become a lunchroom worker than a teacher. Teachers devote 4 to 6 years of their life in college at a cost of $40,000 to $100,000 in order to become a teacher.  How hard we work or how hard the job is not the most important factor in determining pay.  It's more about supply and demand.  Maybe that's not fair, but that's life.


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## code1211 (Mar 15, 2011)

Polk said:


> In education, as in every thing, you get what you pay more. The reason our teacher pool isn't great is because we don't pay teachers very much.





And yet private school teachers are paid less and the students they teach produce better scores on tests.  Children who are home schooled are generally higher scoring on tests and their teacher/parents aren't paid at all.

Try another root cause.


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## Provocateur (Mar 15, 2011)

code1211 said:


> Polk said:
> 
> 
> > In education, as in every thing, you get what you pay more. The reason our teacher pool isn't great is because we don't pay teachers very much.
> ...



Both of those involve a higher level of parental involvement.  The parents care about their kids' education.


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## Flopper (Mar 15, 2011)

code1211 said:


> Polk said:
> 
> 
> > In education, as in every thing, you get what you pay more. The reason our teacher pool isn't great is because we don't pay teachers very much.
> ...


And private schools do a hell of lot less.  No Special Ed, No ESL, no Chapter One kids, little or no DOE reporting, no state testing requirements, and the rest of legislative requirements they put on public schools.   Of course it's cheaper.  Let the public schools pick and choose the best and cheapest students to educate and the cost of public education would drop dramatically.  Of course it wouldn't be public education.


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## psikeyhackr (Mar 15, 2011)

More money should be put into grade schools not colleges.

The kids are sabotaged by the time they get to college.  Sometimes this is funny.


And sometimes it really pisses me off.  They keep calling those clowns EDUCATED.

psik


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## IanC (Mar 16, 2011)

Polk said:


> In education, as in every thing, you get what you pay more. The reason our teacher pool isn't great is because we don't pay teachers very much.





I think you are wrong. and higher wages may even be counter productive. the people who make the best (or even good) teachers are the ones who do it as a vocation, they like to be around kids and make a difference. paying more money doesnt add to the pool of individuals with a natural bent towards teaching, it just attracts more people who want a 'cushy' union job with good benefits. the way to keep good teachers from leaving education is to give them more respect by enforcing discipline in the schools so they can teach rather than play jail guard. why do you think teachers in private schools are willing to work for less money?


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## IanC (Mar 16, 2011)

psikeyhackr said:


> More money should be put into grade schools not colleges.
> 
> The kids are sabotaged by the time they get to college.  Sometimes this is funny.
> 
> ...





I think you are incorrect. those students were exposed to the proper concept of axial tilt many times in their life but choose to use a reasonable concept that is more directly appropriate to their daily life, eg closer to the campfire is warmer.

Many intelligent people fall victim to using faulty reasoning to explain things when it 'makes sense' to them. many people believe in anthropogenic global warming because CO2 makes sense as a blanket or a greenhouse but they don't understand the 'heat pump' action of water evaporating and then releasing latent heat above the clouds during precipitation and hence just ignore this much larger effect.


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## LibocalypseNow (Mar 16, 2011)

Sounds great but what's your plan for doing this? Most Cities,Counties,and States are broke. Who's gonna pay them more? Please explain your plan.


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## code1211 (Mar 16, 2011)

Flopper said:


> code1211 said:
> 
> 
> > midcan5 said:
> ...




Your comparison of teachers pay around the world is based on the pay as a percent of GDP in the country and only God and the statistician who lie about it know how that is calculated.

Meaningless.  

If you want to argue facts, find some and come back when you have them.  Cloudy and foggy non facts are for speeches at the union hall.

Who constructs the procedures and poicies that govern the education of children in public schools?  If you said the professionals in the teaching proffession, you would be right.  It is they who define the goals and set the ciriculum and define the hierarchy and set the the entire mess in motion.

It is they who then work within this system as drones continuing to fail and continuing to not correct the failure.

If the system is broken and the teachers are brilliant, they should be able to fix the system.

If the system is broken and is not fixed, either the teachers are not brilliant and can't figure it out or the they don't give a poop beyond anything but their pensions and pay.

Which is it?


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## Rogo (Mar 23, 2011)

I believe this point has already been made previously in this thread, but I might as well express my opinion. I believe that if we want our country to grow in certain areas, then we need to pay teachers like it's an actual profession. I know many educators, including my own mother, who work countless hours at their job to impact kids' lives. She and other colleagues similar to her deserve a pay increase (and I mean a substantial one).  If you want education to improve then two things must be accomplished:
1.) An increase in pay
2.) Raising the bar in terms of educational requirements
3.) More funds directed towards education

In Japan, they pay teachers as if they are doctors...


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## logical4u (Mar 23, 2011)

midcan5 said:


> My wife teaches, she could have done just about anything in the business world but in the olden times - said facetiously - women taught, were mothers and home makers before returning to teaching. Because I have worked in corporate America, we live well. But if you are a teacher and bread winner, another old term, you'd have a tough go of it in America today. If we want a nation of educated citizens we must value education and pay for it, seems simple.
> 
> http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/13/opinion/13kristof.html?_r=1&hp
> 
> ...



I don't believe most people have a problem with "paying" teachers.  Most people have a problem with the high cost of education (and yes there is a difference).  Why do we need to pay administrator of school districts and colleges such outrageous sums?  Why do we need to put billions into "landscaping"?  
When the students are being sent home with "supply lists" that costs over $50 a student, and we are paying more per student than ever before, a lot of us are just saying enough.  Soon, the public education system will have priced itself out of work as more people are turning to private, charter and home schooling.
I feel for teachers, I don't think they need "college", I think they need a martial arts courses and authority in the classroom.  In many cases, they are only being used as babysitters where teaching comes in at a distant second or third on the priority list.  Hats off to the 'real workhorses' of the educational system.


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## Rogo (Mar 23, 2011)

logical4u said:


> I don't believe most people have a problem with "paying" teachers.  Most people have a problem with the high cost of education (and yes there is a difference).  Why do we need to pay administrator of school districts and colleges such outrageous sums?  Why do we need to put billions into "landscaping"?
> When the students are being sent home with "supply lists" that costs over $50 a student, and we are paying more per student than ever before, a lot of us are just saying enough.  Soon, the public education system will have priced itself out of work as more people are turning to private, charter and home schooling.
> I feel for teachers, I don't think they need "college", I think they need a martial arts courses and authority in the classroom.  In many cases, they are only being used as babysitters where teaching comes in at a distant second or third on the priority list.  Hats off to the 'real workhorses' of the educational system.



The reason why students are being sent home with expensive supply lists is because of the _lack_ of funding the educational system receives. Do I believe that the funding should be distributed in more responsible/efficient ways? Of course I do. Do I feel that it's a good idea to take away funding _because_ of that reason? No, I don't. 

Also, I feel that the 'babysitters' of public schooling are but a tiny minority in comparison to the hard-working educators that make up the majority. But it still needs to be handled nonetheless.


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## Lasher (Mar 23, 2011)

Rogo said:


> logical4u said:
> 
> 
> > I don't believe most people have a problem with "paying" teachers.  Most people have a problem with the high cost of education (and yes there is a difference).  Why do we need to pay administrator of school districts and colleges such outrageous sums?  Why do we need to put billions into "landscaping"?
> ...



How's the weather there in La-La land??


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## Lasher (Mar 23, 2011)

Teachers should be paid on a merit basis, according to the proficiency of the students in their classes.


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## Rogo (Mar 23, 2011)

logical4u said:


> How's the weather there in La-La land??



Is there a reason to revert to antagonism?



Lasher said:


> Teachers should be paid on a merit basis, according to the proficiency of the students in their classes.



I agree with the concept, but I think it's a bit flawed. There will always be "bad" students who are unwilling to learn/participate in class.


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## Annie (Mar 23, 2011)

Flopper said:


> code1211 said:
> 
> 
> > midcan5 said:
> ...



As for comparing US with the states you do regarding salaries, you have to level the playing field. Which kids to educate in a prep for college environment. All? The top 1/2? The top 1/4? By report cards? By tests like nearly all countries outside of US? 

Private schools use standardized tests, just not the state tests, since they aren't allowed. The use Iowa Basics, Terra Nova, or some other recognized test. 

To think that the private schools, outside of 'gifted' don't have special needs kids is delusional. In many cases the parents purposefully enroll them to avoid labeling and the schools take them because they need the tuition. In some cases it works well for the student, in most cases, it's the wrong choice. There are not the support services needed. Most of the teachers do not have the training or the inclination to help these students. To reiterate the point that should have been caught, both public schools and private schools have taken to 'mainstreaming' or 'inclusion' of special needs students into regular classrooms. Often to the benefit of the special needs child, at the same time to the detriment academically of the other students. While the academic costs are there, the 'regular' students do gain understanding of differences. Whether or not this is the best use of money and resources?


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## code1211 (Mar 23, 2011)

Rogo said:


> I believe this point has already been made previously in this thread, but I might as well express my opinion. I believe that if we want our country to grow in certain areas, then we need to pay teachers like it's an actual profession. I know many educators, including my own mother, who work countless hours at their job to impact kids' lives. She and other colleagues similar to her deserve a pay increase (and I mean a substantial one).  If you want education to improve then two things must be accomplished:
> 1.) An increase in pay
> 2.) Raising the bar in terms of educational requirements
> 3.) More funds directed towards education
> ...




I understand the impact that point number 2 would have if you are speaking of the requirement required of students that are taught be the teachers.

Simply spending more on the process and increasing the wages of those who currently are not performing seems irrelevant to the improvement process.

If you coach a football team with a bad QB, will increasing his income improve his completion percentage?  Doubtful.


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## code1211 (Mar 23, 2011)

Rogo said:


> logical4u said:
> 
> 
> > I don't believe most people have a problem with "paying" teachers.  Most people have a problem with the high cost of education (and yes there is a difference).  Why do we need to pay administrator of school districts and colleges such outrageous sums?  Why do we need to put billions into "landscaping"?
> ...




What you feel and believe are interesting, but useless.  What counts is whether or not the "children is learning".  Right now we KNOW that as a nation, we are seeing diminishing results out of our students and we KNOW that the students are the products of the system.

We KNOW the system is comprised of teachers and administrators and funded by politicians who gain support from unions comprised of the teachers and the administrators and finally, we KNOW that the wages of the teachers and the administrators have been negotiated with the people that the unions buy through contributions.

The ONLY way to judge the effectiveness of the whole system is to measure the quality of the product which is the education retained by the students.  In 25 years, the quality of that product has dropped from first to 19th world wide and the system incompetently grinds forward reproducing the failed policies and practices of the past and augmenting its failure.

How do you feel about that?  What do you believe might be the cause?


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## code1211 (Mar 23, 2011)

Rogo said:


> logical4u said:
> 
> 
> > How's the weather there in La-La land??
> ...




If there will always be students who do not want to learn, the system needs to account for them.  The system has not.  The system is built by and administered by the teachers and the administrators.

All deficiencies can be traced back to either the system or the people and the people constructed and run the system.  In other words, if there is a problem, it is not just the fault of, it is the invention of the people.


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## Rogo (Mar 23, 2011)

code1211 said:


> What you feel and believe are interesting, but useless.  What counts is whether or not the "children is learning".  Right now we KNOW that as a nation, we are seeing diminishing results out of our students and we KNOW that the students are the products of the system.
> 
> We KNOW the system is comprised of teachers and administrators and funded by politicians who gain support from unions comprised of the teachers and the administrators and finally, we KNOW that the wages of the teachers and the administrators have been negotiated with the people that the unions buy through contributions.
> 
> ...



The reason why we're nineteenth in the world is that other countries progress, too. Look at China and see how much they have accomplished in the last five decades (needless to say though, we need to catch up). As for your claims about unions... I'd like to see some evidence. I see many politicians (especially those right of center) constantly say this and yet I never see any proof to back it up. I'd also be interested in seeing what you would do to improve our educational system. 

Oh... sorry that I forgot to add this, but the reason why I use verbs such as "feel" and "believe" is that it is impossible to know anything. The reason this being is that everything in the universe is subjective. So, enable to _know_ something, it must be a fact (which is impossible because everything is subjective). Sorry if this is a bit over-analytical, but I just felt the need to explain why I use those words.


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## Gadawg73 (Mar 23, 2011)

Lack of parenting is the problem. Paying teachers more has nothing to do with kids becoming educated.
In Georgia a 20 year teacher that teaches 4 classes a day, works 75% of what a private sector employee works makes right at 90K. 
2 weeks off at Christmas. 4 weeks of breaks during the year, Thanksgiving break, fall break, spring break and winter break (mid February) and 6 weeks during the summer (kids get 9 weeks).
Principals get 140K. 
Career teachers are well paid. Parents are the problem with education in America, not teachers' salaries.


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## Rogo (Mar 24, 2011)

Gadawg73 said:


> Lack of parenting is the problem. Paying teachers more has nothing to do with kids becoming educated.
> In Georgia a 20 year teacher that teaches 4 classes a day, works 75% of what a private sector employee works makes right at 90K.
> 2 weeks off at Christmas. 4 weeks of breaks during the year, Thanksgiving break, fall break, spring break and winter break (mid February) and 6 weeks during the summer (kids get 9 weeks).
> Principals get 140K.
> Career teachers are well paid. Parents are the problem with education in America, not teachers' salaries.



I don't really think you can blame an entire group of people for the ineffectiveness of our educational system. I'm sure that it's a factor in it (we could get into the whole nature vs. nurture debate if you like), but I don't think that's the underlying cause.


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## code1211 (Mar 24, 2011)

Rogo said:


> code1211 said:
> 
> 
> > What you feel and believe are interesting, but useless.  What counts is whether or not the "children is learning".  Right now we KNOW that as a nation, we are seeing diminishing results out of our students and we KNOW that the students are the products of the system.
> ...




Not everything is subjective.  When I was 18 years old, I could run a mile in about 4:30 and three miles in under 15 minutes.  That is not subjective.  It really, really  happened.

Today I could do neither of those things.  Again, not subjective.  A real hard fact.

Another fact is that our educational system used to produce students who ranked number one in the world on test scores.  Now they are 19th.  Not subjective.  Stack ranking.

Unions and particularly unions comprised of governemnt workers overwhelmingly support Domocrat politicians through contributions.  Again, not subjective.  Fact.

A good way to measure anything is to determine first what is measurable and how to measure it.  Once this is done, you are faced with the problem of doing something to move the needle.  For 25 years, our educational system has moved the needle down.

Instead of talking about the unfair wages which have been rising, why not talk about the unfair results which have been dropping.  Both of these, again, not subjective.  Facts.


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## Rogo (Mar 24, 2011)

code1211 said:


> Not everything is subjective.  When I was 18 years old, I could run a mile in about 4:30 and three miles in under 15 minutes.  That is not subjective.  It really, really  happened.
> 
> Today I could do neither of those things.  Again, not subjective.  A real hard fact.
> 
> ...



Actually, everything_ is_ subjective because enable for something to be true it must be held as true by everyone in the world. Enable for something to exist, then someone must acknowledge its existence (perception = existence).  While it may exist to that single person, it may not to everyone else (because for something that is considered true to single person is a form of opinion which ties into the concept of subjectivity). The idea that we have gravity is not true either because gravity did not exist before time and space was created (not to mention mankind didn't really define what gravity is until Isaac Newton did). Even that statement I just made is subjective because that is what I believe (while others may not/do not know about it).

Another explanation is that enable for something to be true it must be permanent and since nothing is permanent then nothing is true. Give me an atheist and a theist. One believes in a god, while the other does not. Are they both right? No because it is their_ opinion_ (of course, this is a more obvious example). 

Everything I just said up there is subjective. This is nothing but a simple Taoist principle...

Oh, and the reason why wages are rising (which I trouble believing because I have educators in my family who have been in a pay freeze for about six years) is because the value of that the worldwide economy is always growing. Just because their wages are rising, doesn't mean it makes a huge difference. I can tell you. I have a close friend who's a single mother of two who is currently teaching English at a high school and she can barely support her children. She tutors, teaches at Sylvan, etc. It's still not enough.

Also, the concept is simple... if you raise requirements and increase pay then you will attract better, more qualified educators.


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## Flopper (Mar 24, 2011)

Annie said:


> Flopper said:
> 
> 
> > code1211 said:
> ...


Regardless of the reason, if students do not tale the same tests, scores are not comparable.  Test professional often attempt to equate the various tests, but unless the goal of test created is to insure compatibly, comparisons are not accurate.

In districts which I am familiar, Special Ed. in Private Schools is provide primarily through the public school district.  Remember, Special Ed. is not just for students with learning disability.  It can include homebound students, and students with severe physical mental disabilities.  These services can be very costly.  Yes, there is a lot mainstreaming but invariably, the teacher will work with the special ed. teacher and usually the special ed teacher will work with the student once a week.  Many private schools aim for the stars, the best students in academics, sports, and the arts, leaving the remainder to public schools.


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## Annie (Mar 24, 2011)

Flopper said:


> Annie said:
> 
> 
> > Flopper said:
> ...



I doubt very much that you've dealt with attempting to get services provided from public schools either from private schools or homeschooling. For the past 8 years it's been close to impossible to get them to agree to testing until March, by then they've run out of budgeting and try to get the case carried over into the next school year. Call in the fall and they respond with, after we finish testing here, we'll call back. It takes the parents to threaten lawsuits and guess what? These are often the same folks who pulled their kids out of public schools because they didn't want the child tested in the first place. 

You do not have an inkling of the system. 

Homeschooling parents have a very difficult time just getting the appropriate texts even though the school must provide them or provide the ability to get them through publishers. 

BTW, standardized tests are interchangeable. Each state has their own version of 'state tests' based upon certain criteria. Iowa Basics and Terra Nova have both been providing the same, for more years than any state tests.


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## Flopper (Mar 24, 2011)

Annie said:


> Flopper said:
> 
> 
> > Annie said:
> ...


You use the word system as if there were one system.  There are as many systems as there are districts and services can vary tremendously from district to district.  In the district I worked in, I doubt you would have the problems you experienced.  The reason is our superintendent and board were commitment to  partnering with private schools, homeschoolers, and the community to provide quality education to all students in the district.

Sorry about your bad experience.


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## Samson (Mar 25, 2011)

Annie said:


> Homeschooling parents have a very difficult time just getting the appropriate texts even though the school must provide them or provide the ability to get them through publishers..



I did not know that.

But I am curious about the growth of homeschooling through the use of the internet, the growth of its popularity, and how it would save states' budgets.

In Colorado, because of the many remote Mountain communities, Internet Schooling seems to be more popular than in most metropolitan areas. But there's no reason it COULD NOT be more greatly utilized......RIGHT?

Unless parents are using public schools as free baby sitting services.


Of course we know, they'd never do that.


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## Annie (Mar 25, 2011)

Flopper said:


> Annie said:
> 
> 
> > Flopper said:
> ...



You were the one that started speaking in generalities. You were the one that spoke about 1 test for public and standardized testing in other schools not being of the same standards. Ha, my guess would be that in creationist leaning states, their 'standardized' tests by the state are not quite that. You won't see that problem with independent tests such as Pearson, (Terra Nova) or Iowa Basics. 

You 'doubt' regarding your 'system'? LOL! What would you expect the superintendent to say regarding 'best for all', since the requirements are law? As I said, you've not an inkling.


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## Gadawg73 (Mar 25, 2011)

Rogo said:


> Gadawg73 said:
> 
> 
> > Lack of parenting is the problem. Paying teachers more has nothing to do with kids becoming educated.
> ...



Parents are responsible for making sure their kids are well educated.
It is not the responsibility of government.
Problem with Americans these days is they want government to give them what they "need" such as health care, education, job protection and retirement.
All the while they want to be free to spend their wad on what they want, not what they really need. 
I have 3 kids, all went to public schools, 2 graduated from university and  a senior in high school.


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## Rogo (Mar 25, 2011)

Gadawg73 said:


> Parents are responsible for making sure their kids are well educated.
> It is not the responsibility of government.
> Problem with Americans these days is they want government to give them what they "need" such as health care, education, job protection and retirement.
> All the while they want to be free to spend their wad on what they want, not what they really need.
> I have 3 kids, all went to public schools, 2 graduated from university and  a senior in high school.



I think that parents certainly play a role in children's education as far as paying their taxes, making sure their kids get to school, and making sure they study/do their homework. But if a child attends a public school then the government (primarily the state government) _does_ have a responsibility for students during the time they are at school (8:00 AM - 3:00 PM or close to that) as well as the school itself (which is _funded_ by the government).


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## Flopper (Mar 25, 2011)

Samson said:


> Annie said:
> 
> 
> > Homeschooling parents have a very difficult time just getting the appropriate texts even though the school must provide them or provide the ability to get them through publishers..
> ...


Home schooling grew from the USDEs estimated .85 million K-12 students in 1999 to their estimated 1.51 million in 2007. This represents about 1 or 2% of the public and private school enrollment.  As far as the Internet, it looks like most Internet services provide supplemental material for the home schoolteacher.  Im not sure if anyone offers a virtual classroom environment.

I saw an interesting statistic in the document below as to why parents home school.  I assumed the main reason to home school was dissatisfaction with academic instruction.  Actually only 21% of the parents gave this as a reason. The major factors were to provide religious or moral instruction (36 percent of parents) and concern about the school environment (21%) 
Homeschooling Approaches - Internet Homeschooling - Homeschool.com - The #1 Homeschooling Community
National Home Education Research Institute - U.S. Homeschool Population Size and Growth: Comments

My older daughter home schooled her seven year old thru the 2nd and 3rd grade.  She was an elementary school teacher for 7 years so I dont think she found it that difficult.  I think someone who has not been involved in academic education of young children would probably find home schooling challenging.  Aside from the time factor required, there are a lot of considerations.  First off, what and how you were taught 25 or 30 years ago has changed a lot.  Also, being a good parent is not synonymous with being a good teacher.  A support group of other parents that home school and good support from the district are very important.  

In my daughters case, she contacted the local school district and found they had a coordinator who helped parents and private schools with the use of district services such as testing, and curriculum.  She was able to join a local group of parents that home schooled.  They shared materials and teaching duties.  Without this group, I dont she would have lasted 2 years.  After 2 years she moved into another district and entered my granddaughter in a wonderful elementary school and that was the end of the home schooling.

I think home schooling could be used a lot more if the parents have the time, dedication, and the right home environment.  I would think home schooling  several kids at different grade levels would be pretty hard.


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## Samson (Mar 25, 2011)

Flopper said:


> Samson said:
> 
> 
> > Annie said:
> ...



So, then you believe parents do not have the time, dedication, and the right home environment.....perhaps this is the problem, since this is where kids spend most of their time.

Anyway, here's some MYTHBUSTERS:

Myths and Facts About Online Schools| Colorado Virtual Academy



> MYTH: Students who attend online schools lack socialization and social skills.
> FACT: Students at the Colorado Virtual Academy have the opportunity to participate in many academic and social outings. These outings and activities may include trips to museums, skate parks, zoos, clubs, student government, dances, and even graduation ceremonies.
> 
> MYTH : Youll spend all day staring at a computer.
> ...


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## Flopper (Mar 25, 2011)

Annie said:


> Flopper said:
> 
> 
> > Annie said:
> ...


I believe in most states, I know it is in Florida, the Superintendent is legally responsible for the education all K-12 student within the district, regardless of whether they are home schooled, in public, or private school.  However, the actual availability of services such as testing and special ed. varies from district to district.  It shouldn't but it does.

BTW As I recall Iowa Tests of Educational Development is just for grades 9-12.


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## chanel (Mar 25, 2011)

My kids took the Iowa's in elementary school.


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## Flopper (Mar 25, 2011)

Samson said:


> Flopper said:
> 
> 
> > Samson said:
> ...


Interesting.

Both parents work in 58% of families in the US.  I really don't see how home schooling would work in most of these families.  In the remaining 42%, I think you would have to eliminate the functionality illiterates, homemakers that are overly burden with child care, housekeeping, and other duties.  Also, there are a lot of parents that are very happy with the local public or private school in their neighborhood and are not about to take on home schooling.  Then there's the issue of the kids who want to be in band or play football, or simply just want to go to school with their friends.  When you consider all this, I don't think home schooling is ever going to be an option for most parents, although I think it has some room to grow.


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## Flopper (Mar 25, 2011)

chanel said:


> My kids took the Iowa's in elementary school.


Then I guess they must have one.  I checked their web site and it said 9-12. 

Iowa Test of Educational Development | K12 Academics


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## chanel (Mar 25, 2011)

Iowa Test of Basic Skills 

Iowa Tests of Basic Skills - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## Samson (Mar 25, 2011)

Flopper said:


> Samson said:
> 
> 
> > Flopper said:
> ...



My point wasn't that it should be an option.

In light of increasing school costs, the band, football, and "being happy with the [traditional] public school," or "going to school with friends" become increasingly luxurious in a world that demands more internet learning. Why not make it more a part of public education?

If anyone wants to be with friends, play football, or be happy playing the tuba, why should the public pay?


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## Rozman (Mar 25, 2011)

JamesInFlorida said:


> I think the problem is the results that the schools are getting. I think most people would be willing to pay teachers more-if students performed better.
> 
> I personally have no problem throwing money at teachers-but not blindly. I think our education system needs to be revamped. A good compromise is to pay teachers more, but get rid of tenure. Getting rid of tenure will naturally make is so that the best teachers are in the classrooms (or at least the worst teachers are out), and by raising salaries you add more incentive to potential teachers.
> 
> I don't think education is something that can be fixed just by paying more money-but I also don't think GOOD teachers get paid enough-bad teachers are overpaid and should be fired.



If our teachers are so good....why are the students in this country lagging so far behind the rest of the world?


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## Samson (Mar 25, 2011)

Rozman said:


> JamesInFlorida said:
> 
> 
> > I think the problem is the results that the schools are getting. I think most people would be willing to pay teachers more-if students performed better.
> ...



I'll 'splain for the 1355th time.

No other country is the USA.


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## Flopper (Mar 25, 2011)

Samson said:


> Flopper said:
> 
> 
> > Samson said:
> ...


I don't know if the world is demanding education delivered via the Internet.  I know it would be very cost effective if we could just sit all the kids down at computers at home and education would just happen without teachers, schools, and all the associated cost.  We are not there yet and in my opinion we will  probably never be there.  A computer is a good tool in education but it remains a tool and it doesn't replace the teacher or the school.

Things like band, sports, chess club, debate team, math competitions, science fairs, class projects, school projects, and drama club are important parts of education.  Many students are motivated by their teacher and seek approval and recognition from the teacher.  For some students peer pressure is a very important motivation.   Socialization and team work is one of the most important things kids learn. Kids just don't get these things sitting at home in front of a computer.  These things are not luxuries.  They are an important part of education.

I recall two teachers, one a seven grade math teacher, the other a Physics teacher.  They were great teachers and really motivated me.  I doubt I would have gone on to college if it had not been for these two teachers.  I think there are millions of kids that have had similar experiences.  Somehow, I just don't see a computer replacing teachers like this.


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## chanel (Mar 26, 2011)

Yes social skills are as important as academics IMHO.  A computer can not teach you manners or discipline.  A computer cannot teach you to get along with people who are different or you may not even like.  A computer cannot smile.

A free compulsory public education is an American institution that has made this country great.  It will not go away.

For millions of American children, school is the only place they feel valued and safe.  However, when they don't feel safe, they cannot learn.  And  that's something that should make people angry.  It doesn't take a genius to figure out that the worst schools in this country are the most dangerous. That should be the #1 priority of school reform.


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## code1211 (Mar 26, 2011)

Rogo said:


> code1211 said:
> 
> 
> > Not everything is subjective.  When I was 18 years old, I could run a mile in about 4:30 and three miles in under 15 minutes.  That is not subjective.  It really, really  happened.
> ...




Everything you wrote that i highlighted in red might get you a high grade as you compare the writings of aquinas to hume, but in the real world, it's rubbish.

Kennedy did not acknowledge the existance of the bullet that blew the back of his head off.  Does that mean that bullet did not exist?  Your argument is empty.

Permanence does not equal truth.  In fact, the very nature of truth, since this is more of a societal thing than it is a fact, almost demands that it is constantly changing.  A fact on the other hand just is.  That is the definition of a fact.  Truth demands understanding while fact demands nothing.  It simply is.

"If you raise requirements and increase the pay..."  Do you see the flaw in what you propose?  The only thing you need to do to raise the requirements is to raise the requirements.  It has already happened in every segment of society except public works.

Talk to anyone who works for a privately held company who has worked in the same position for an extended period of time and you will find that they are doing more, are responsible for more, are producing more and are involved in more than they were 5 years ago and that they are making about the same wage rate in inflation adjusted dollars or less.

Why should teachers be different than the rest of society?


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## editec (Mar 26, 2011)

If the USA paid teachers like WALL STREET pays its workers, what do you suppose would happen to the average IQ of our educators?

I suspect that it might improve somewhat.

Anybody disagree?


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## code1211 (Mar 26, 2011)

editec said:


> If the USA paid teachers like WALL STREET pays its workers, what do you suppose would happen to the average IQ of our educators?
> 
> I suspect that it might improve somewhat.
> 
> Anybody disagree?




if the value of the stocks did what the test scores have done over the last 25 years, Wall Street Workers _would _be paid like teachers.

DJI is up around 10,000 points.


Chart of the Dow Jones Industrial Averages since 1974


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## Annie (Mar 26, 2011)

Flopper said:


> Annie said:
> 
> 
> > Flopper said:
> ...



Once again, you're wrong, they are standardized tests for grammar school students:

Iowa Tests of Basic Skills - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



> Iowa Tests of Basic Skills
> From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> Jump to: navigation, search
> 
> The Iowa Tests of Basic Skills (ITBS), also known as the Iowa Tests, are standardized tests provided as a service to schools by the College of Education of the University of Iowa. The tests are administered to students in kindergarten through eighth grade as part of the Iowa Statewide Testing Programs, a division of the Iowa Testing Programs (ITP). Developers E. F. Lindquist, Harry Greene, Ernest Horn, Maude McBroom, and Herbert Spitzer first designed and administered the tests, originally named the Iowa Every Pupil Test of Basic Skills, in 1935 as a tool to improve instruction.[1] Over decades, participation expanded and currently nearly all school districts in Iowa participate annually in the program, as do many other school districts across the United States. In a cooperative relationship, participating schools receive ITBS test materials, scoring and reporting services and consultation in the use of ITBS for instructional purposes, and ITP utilizes participation by schools in research and test development.[2]


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## Annie (Mar 26, 2011)

Flopper said:


> chanel said:
> 
> 
> > My kids took the Iowa's in elementary school.
> ...



Illinois in 9-10 uses PSAT and the Illinois test. In grade 10 and all in grade 11 it's ACT and Illinois test. Seniors are not tested, though some may once again take the ACT.


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## Samson (Mar 26, 2011)

editec said:


> If the USA paid teachers like WALL STREET pays its workers, what do you suppose would happen to the average IQ of our educators?
> 
> I suspect that it might improve somewhat.
> 
> Anybody disagree?



Are you implying that Wall Street workers have high IQ's?



Naive.


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## Gadawg73 (Mar 26, 2011)

editec said:


> If the USA paid teachers like WALL STREET pays its workers, what do you suppose would happen to the average IQ of our educators?
> 
> I suspect that it might improve somewhat.
> 
> Anybody disagree?



What evidence is there that smart people make good teachers?
Best teacher I ever had was a football coach. Taught me to be a man, stand up, do right, make no excuses, work hard in the real world, the classroom second, the field third, play fair (well most of the time)and get better each day.
And he wasn't very smart as far as IQ goes.


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## Rogo (Mar 26, 2011)

Gadawg73 said:


> What evidence is there that smart people make good teachers?
> Best teacher I ever had was a football coach. Taught me to be a man, stand up, do right, make no excuses, work hard in the real world, the classroom second, the field third, play fair (well most of the time)and get better each day.
> And he wasn't very smart as far as IQ goes.



Well, I would like to have a calculus teacher be knowledgeable of the subject he or she is teaching and be fairly intelligent. Now, what _you _are talking about is wisdom and common sense (both which are necessary and essential characteristics in an effective teacher).


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## Samson (Mar 26, 2011)

Rogo said:


> Gadawg73 said:
> 
> 
> > What evidence is there that smart people make good teachers?
> ...



Good.

Go to college and pay for a Math Professor.


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## whitehall (Mar 26, 2011)

Pay sanitation workers more. You would die if they didn't handle your garbage. Pay Cops more, as a matter of fact require a PHD degree to walk a beat. It all sounds good but we can't afford it so we do the best we can.


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## Rogo (Mar 27, 2011)

Samson said:


> Good.
> 
> Go to college and pay for a Math Professor.



What exactly is your implication?


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## Samson (Mar 27, 2011)

Rogo said:


> Samson said:
> 
> 
> > Good.
> ...



If you want to take advanced math courses, then you should take them in college where you should pay for them.


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## Rogo (Mar 27, 2011)

Samson said:


> If you want to take advanced math courses, then you should take them in college where you should pay for them.



The majority of U.S. high schools offer calculus as apart of their curriculum. If we start to devolve our educational system by omitting advanced courses, then we're just dumbing down our students. Plus, it is helpful for those to take it during high school and not have to pay for it in college. 

I also just used that as an example of why I want a teacher to be knowledgeable.


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## chanel (Mar 27, 2011)

I'm fairly certain that most Calculus teachers today have pretty high IQ's.  But whether they can DO higher level math or whether they can TEACH it, has little to do with IQ.  Being an expert in children is as important as being an expert in one's subject area.  That's why teachers are on probation their first three years. Some people just aren't cut out for it. It takes a thick skin, a sense of humor, and a whole lotta patience. IQ has nothing to do with those attributes.


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## Samson (Mar 27, 2011)

Rogo said:


> Samson said:
> 
> 
> > If you want to take advanced math courses, then you should take them in college where you should pay for them.
> ...



Oh, well, let's not dumb-down our students....ANYTHING but THAT!!

After all, so many take Calculus in High School


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## Rogo (Mar 27, 2011)

Samson said:


> Oh, well, let's not dumb-down our students....ANYTHING but THAT!!
> 
> After all, so many take Calculus in High School



Actually, plenty of students take calculus. Especially those who are aiming for advanced, A.P., or I.B. diplomas.


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## Samson (Mar 27, 2011)

Rogo said:


> Samson said:
> 
> 
> > Oh, well, let's not dumb-down our students....ANYTHING but THAT!!
> ...





The profound level of your posts never ceases to amaze me.



Do any students studying foreign language take French?


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## Rogo (Mar 27, 2011)

Samson said:


> The profound level of your posts never ceases to amaze me.
> 
> 
> 
> Do any students studying foreign language take French?



Your sarcasm is overbearing. I think I'll enter into other conversations...


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## Samson (Mar 27, 2011)

Rogo said:


> Samson said:
> 
> 
> > The profound level of your posts never ceases to amaze me.
> ...



Probably a good idea.

This thread is about _Paying Teachers More_.

One reason we cannot pay more, is because we allocate the education budget to absurdities that have nothing to do with the purpose of public education (providing citizens with enough education to run a democracy). One of these is teaching AP and IB, both of which can, and should be taken in college where students pay for their education.


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## chanel (Mar 27, 2011)

Well I disagree with you there Samson. Unless we graduate kids at 14 (which you've suggested) we need higher level courses to keep our best and brightest challenged.

But I do agree that "paying teachers more" will not translate into better candidates applying for jobs. Teaching requires on the job training, and no one can predict with certainty whether they will be good or not. Teacher education programs don't prepare future educators to handle half the crap they have to deal with. They should offer an entire course in dealing with intentional flatulence and profanity. Lol


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## Samson (Mar 27, 2011)

chanel said:


> Well I disagree with you there Samson. Unless we graduate kids at 14 (which you've suggested) we need higher level courses to keep our best and brightest challenged.



But public school is not, and never has been, the vehicle for "challenging our best and brightest."

This is what college is for.

Retaining the Best and Bightest in the Public Warehouse for an extra 4 years pretending that it could be worth their while is not only expensive, but also a drain on the resources that could be spent on developing the BASIC knowledge and skills for AVERAGE citizens of a democracy.


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## Flopper (Mar 27, 2011)

Samson said:


> Rogo said:
> 
> 
> > Samson said:
> ...


Well I don't agree with you concerning AP.  I think Advanced Placement is important and should be in the budget of every district.  The AP students are the ones most likely to be the leaders of tomorrow. 

You are right that there is too much in educational budgets that don't contribute to better education.  We spend huge sums of money collecting information for the state and federal DOE as well as the local district.  We report on everything that students do or don't do.  We report student progress and we report the lack of progress.  We count kids. We count books. We count tardies, we count spills of bodily fluid.  We report on why kids fail.  We report on why kids pass.  Every time a legislator says we need to know..., there goes another hundred thousand gathering more information.

We teach classes on being a good citizen.  We teach state history.  We teach black history.  We teach Indian history.  We teach just about anything the legislature thinks kids need to know.


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## Samson (Mar 27, 2011)

Flopper said:


> Samson said:
> 
> 
> > Rogo said:
> ...



The reason the public school is responsible for reporting their financial activity is because it is a public school.

What, you don't think government bureaucracy should be accountable for their activity?

The American public school was never designed to cater to Gifted and Talented students or Special Ed students, but for the Average Joe.

The reason the expense of public school is so enormous is it instists that EVERYONE can be satisfied, including AP students that think that they can save a few bucks letting the public finance their highly specialized course requirements, and then testing out of those courses for college credit.


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## waltky (Apr 2, 2018)

Teachers in Two US States Walk Out for more pay, better pension benefits...
*



*
*Teachers in Two US States Walk Out in Funding Protests*
_April 02, 2018 - Tens of thousands of teachers in the U.S. states of Oklahoma and Kentucky took to the streets Monday, demanding better pay and more funding for education._


> Classrooms in both states — Oklahoma in the southwestern part of the country, and Kentucky in the mid-South — were shuttered, some because of the teacher walkouts, some because of scheduled spring breaks.  The teacher protests in Oklahoma City and Frankfort, the capital cities of Oklahoma and Kentucky respectively, mirrored a similar nine-day strike in West Virginia, where teachers recently won a pay raise to end their walkout.
> 
> In Oklahoma, with the third-lowest teacher salaries among the 50 U.S. states, the protesters said funding concessions made by state lawmakers last week were not big enough to improve education there. Some school systems only hold classes four days a week for lack of funding for a five-day week and use 20-year-old textbooks.
> 
> ...



See also:

*Okla., Kentucky schools close as teachers demand better pay*
_April 2, 2018  -- Thousands of teachers in Oklahoma and Kentucky walked out of classrooms Monday to pressure lawmakers for higher wages and better resources._


> In Oklahoma City, teachers rallied for the cause and forced the closure of about 200 schools in the state. Union officials say the walkout is expected to last one day.  "There is a disturbing common message: more and more people ... are saying, 'I don't know if I can AFFORD to do the world's most important work," Lily Eskelsen Garcia, president of the National Education Association, said in a statement.  Robyn Waldrop, a kindergarten teacher from Putnam City Schools, said she must work several jobs, including tutoring and working at a farmers market.  Waldrop's daughter, Lauren, held a sign that read, "My mom shouldn't have to work two jobs to support my family and yours."
> 
> In Kentucky, teachers gathered at the state capitol in Frankfort to demand Gov. Matt Bevin veto a controversial bill passed last week that made significant changes to educators' pensions.  "We have no choice but to be here," Jeffrey Peeno, a Kenton County art teacher, said. "We have to represent what we do. When they pass this with the sewage bill, it tells us exactly what we need to know about what they think of us."  Teachers filled the halls of the capitol with shouts of "Vote them out!" and "Enough is enough!" Many signs took aim at Bevin, who has accused teachers of "selfish" and "thuggish" behavior for opposing the pension overhaul plans.  "We will be back in the schools when our members tell us to," Alicia Priest, president of the Oklahoma Education Association, told CNN earlier.
> 
> ...


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## Unkotare (Apr 2, 2018)

midcan5 said:


> ..... But if you are a teacher and bread winner, another old term, you'd have a tough go of it in America today. .......




You can say that again!


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## initforme (Apr 2, 2018)

People wanr good teachers without paying them.  Case in point oklahoma.  Shame on oklahoma for treating them like dirt.  Even mcpukes gives raises.  Not a raise for ten years...some schools down to your days a week.   Talk about backwards.


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## Flopper (Apr 2, 2018)

Rogo said:


> Samson said:
> 
> 
> > Oh, well, let's not dumb-down our students....ANYTHING but THAT!!
> ...


*The actually figures are 68% of students in college took calculus in high school.  Most high schools who go to college will take algebra, pre-calculus, and calculus.  Many students will follow that with statistics or another advance math class.  If a student is going into any of the science and technology fields they should take as much as they can in high school. *


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## Flopper (Apr 2, 2018)

initforme said:


> People wanr good teachers without paying them.  Case in point oklahoma.  Shame on oklahoma for treating them like dirt.  Even mcpukes gives raises.  Not a raise for ten years...some schools down to your days a week.   Talk about backwards.


*Teachers in a number of red states are finally rebelling, Arizona, Oklahoma, Kentucky, and West Virginia this year.  *


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## mgh80 (Apr 7, 2018)

Rozman said:


> JamesInFlorida said:
> 
> 
> > I think the problem is the results that the schools are getting. I think most people would be willing to pay teachers more-if students performed better.
> ...



Students have been coddled. They're push through, give a million "2nd" chances, undisciplined, etc. I had a student tell me to "fuck off" last week...because "I failed them" (they slept everyday in class and did no work). Their consequence? The office reviewed the rules with them and explained what appropriate behavior is. You think that kid learned any lesson whatsoever? They'll push him through regardless. PS: he's 16, old enough to know better.


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## Unkotare (Apr 7, 2018)

mgh80 said:


> Rozman said:
> 
> 
> > JamesInFlorida said:
> ...



Sounds like your school sucks.


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## bodecea (Apr 7, 2018)

Unkotare said:


> mgh80 said:
> 
> 
> > Rozman said:
> ...


Unfortunately, as I am told, school administration hands are tied either by districts or states.  Can't suspend, can't expell.


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## Unkotare (Apr 7, 2018)

bodecea said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> > mgh80 said:
> ...




Not true.


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## Skull Pilot (Apr 7, 2018)

Get rid of the top heavy bureaucracy that plagues education and there will be plenty of money to give teachers a raise


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## bodecea (Apr 7, 2018)

Skull Pilot said:


> Get rid of the top heavy bureaucracy that plagues education and there will be plenty of money to give teachers a raise


Honestly...I wager that if teachers were actually allowed to be teachers and not babysitters, they wouldn't mind the pay.


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## Flopper (Apr 17, 2018)

Skull Pilot said:


> Get rid of the top heavy bureaucracy that plagues education and there will be plenty of money to give teachers a raise


*School administration cost varies tremendously from state to state and even district to district.  The problem of high administration cost can be solved but at a price.  

For example, one of the major reasons districts have high administration costs are small neighborhood schools.  Districts that have got away from neighborhood schools have lower operations cost, less administrators and lower overhead.  The price is longer transportation time for students, less local control of schools by parents.  Anytime a district wants to close a small costly neighborhood school, they are in for a big fight with parents.

Another problem is how we manage schools.  Our laws require, federal, state, district, and school level administration.  There is a lot of overlap as well as a lot of reporting requirements between management levels.

Lastly, many services performed at the school level could be done more efficiently at the district level.  Many services provided to schools by small districts could be combined into regional service centers.  The problem is no one wants to loose control.    *


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