# Islam kills 2000 in Nigeria



## Votto

Islamic Genocide Boko Haram Slaughters 2 000 In One Day - Breitbart

Has anyone heard about this in the news?  I haven't.

Looks like Islam is on the move again Mo style.

No word yet on whether they were all cartoonists.

Not to worry though, Obama just came out and said none of them are true Muslims.


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## Pogo

Votto said:


> Islamic Genocide Boko Haram Slaughters 2 000 In One Day - Breitbart
> 
> Has anyone heard about this in the news?  I haven't.
> 
> Looks like Islam is on the move again Mo style.
> 
> No word yet on whether they were all cartoonists.
> 
> Not to worry though, Obama just came out and said none of them are true Muslims.



"Islam" is a religion.  A religion is by definition a concept.  A concept can't kill anybody.

Your link OTOH says Boko Haram did it.  That's humans.  Humans _can_ kill.

I'm a human.  I just killed your concept.

Hiya.


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## 007

Votto said:


> Islamic Genocide Boko Haram Slaughters 2 000 In One Day - Breitbart
> 
> Has anyone heard about this in the news?  I haven't.
> 
> Looks like Islam is on the move again Mo style.
> 
> No word yet on whether they were all cartoonists.
> 
> Not to worry though, Obama just came out and said none of them are true Muslims.


Must have just been a FEW muslims, you know, like the muslim and chief here refers too, the same FEW bad ones that do all the killing. Those FEW really do some heavy traveling to get around to all those different places on earth.


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## Tom Sweetnam

No, but then we hear about very few of Africa's slaughters...that happen on a daily basis.


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## Vigilante

Somebody better remind the obumanation that those people are all black, and could have been his sons, daughters, wife, and Father (mother means shit to him!)... THEN we'll see 10,000 troops on the ground in Africa!.... Hey, he has to make MARKS if he wants to be KING OF KENYA, once he's out of here!


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## Tom Sweetnam

Congo's civil war has killed between 8-9 million over as many years, and rages to this day. How often do we hear about it?


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## NYcarbineer

Bush's Christian Crusade into Iraq killed far more innocents.


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## Tom Sweetnam

NYcarbineer said:


> Bush's Christian Crusade into Iraq killed far more innocents.



Push the buzzer and tell Nurse Prentis you need your insanity drugs...quick!


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## NYcarbineer

Tom Sweetnam said:


> NYcarbineer said:
> 
> 
> 
> Bush's Christian Crusade into Iraq killed far more innocents.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Push the buzzer and tell Nurse Prentis you need your insanity drugs...quick!
Click to expand...


What do you dispute?  That Bush's war killed innocent civilians?


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## Votto

Pogo said:


> Votto said:
> 
> 
> 
> Islamic Genocide Boko Haram Slaughters 2 000 In One Day - Breitbart
> 
> Has anyone heard about this in the news?  I haven't.
> 
> Looks like Islam is on the move again Mo style.
> 
> No word yet on whether they were all cartoonists.
> 
> Not to worry though, Obama just came out and said none of them are true Muslims.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "Islam" is a religion.  A religion is by definition a concept.  A concept can't kill anybody.
> 
> Your link OTOH says Boko Haram did it.  That's humans.  Humans _can_ kill.
> 
> I'm a human.  I just killed your concept.
> 
> Hiya.
Click to expand...


You know you are right.  I'm thinking its the same group of "humans" who go around blowing things up in the name of Allah.


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## NYcarbineer

The Israelis killed about the same number of innocents in Gaza this past summer.

Let's do something about that.


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## Votto

NYcarbineer said:


> Bush's Christian Crusade into Iraq killed far more innocents.



How many innocents did Obama's Christian Crusade kill in Libya?

You don't know?  The hell you say.


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## Mr. H.

You sure this wasn't a work place incident?


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## NYcarbineer

Votto said:


> NYcarbineer said:
> 
> 
> 
> Bush's Christian Crusade into Iraq killed far more innocents.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How many innocents did Obama's Christian Crusade kill in Libya?
> 
> You don't know?  The hell you say.
Click to expand...


I opposed getting into Libya.  You're blathering at the wrong person.


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## Votto

NYcarbineer said:


> Votto said:
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> NYcarbineer said:
> 
> 
> 
> Bush's Christian Crusade into Iraq killed far more innocents.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How many innocents did Obama's Christian Crusade kill in Libya?
> 
> You don't know?  The hell you say.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I opposed getting into Libya.  You're blathering at the wrong person.
Click to expand...



Who the hell cares what you approve of?  You voted for the lying POS, so take some accountability for him.


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## Votto

Mr. H. said:


> You sure this wasn't a work place incident?




This just in, Charlie Sheen was discovered in a New York apartment.............alive!!!


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## NYcarbineer

Votto said:


> NYcarbineer said:
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> Votto said:
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> NYcarbineer said:
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> 
> 
> Bush's Christian Crusade into Iraq killed far more innocents.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How many innocents did Obama's Christian Crusade kill in Libya?
> 
> You don't know?  The hell you say.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I opposed getting into Libya.  You're blathering at the wrong person.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Who the hell cares what you approve of?  You voted for the lying POS, so take some accountability for him.
Click to expand...


Do you only vote for candidates that you agree with on every single issue?

Prove it.


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## Votto

NYcarbineer said:


> Votto said:
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> NYcarbineer said:
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> Votto said:
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> NYcarbineer said:
> 
> 
> 
> Bush's Christian Crusade into Iraq killed far more innocents.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How many innocents did Obama's Christian Crusade kill in Libya?
> 
> You don't know?  The hell you say.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I opposed getting into Libya.  You're blathering at the wrong person.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Who the hell cares what you approve of?  You voted for the lying POS, so take some accountability for him.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Do you only vote for candidates that you agree with on every single issue?
> 
> Prove it.
Click to expand...


Who cares what the American public think?  They promise one thing and do another with impunity in both parties.  That's why the term "democracy" means nothing whatsoever.  Essentially we just vote for lies and shrug our shoulders to absolve ourselves of any culpability for having voted for them.

Do yourself a favor and vote for another Dim who will go attack Syria like Hillary, while washing your hands of whatever the hell she decides to do in office.


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## NYcarbineer

Votto said:


> NYcarbineer said:
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> Votto said:
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> NYcarbineer said:
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> Votto said:
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> NYcarbineer said:
> 
> 
> 
> Bush's Christian Crusade into Iraq killed far more innocents.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How many innocents did Obama's Christian Crusade kill in Libya?
> 
> You don't know?  The hell you say.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I opposed getting into Libya.  You're blathering at the wrong person.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Who the hell cares what you approve of?  You voted for the lying POS, so take some accountability for him.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Do you only vote for candidates that you agree with on every single issue?
> 
> Prove it.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Who cares what the American public think?  They promise one thing and do another with impunity in both parties.  That's why the term "democracy" means nothing whatsoever.  Essentially we just vote for lies and shrug our shoulders to absolve ourselves of any culpability for having voted for them.
Click to expand...


lol was that a yes or a no?


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## Votto

NYcarbineer said:


> Votto said:
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> NYcarbineer said:
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> Votto said:
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> NYcarbineer said:
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> Votto said:
> 
> 
> 
> How many innocents did Obama's Christian Crusade kill in Libya?
> 
> You don't know?  The hell you say.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I opposed getting into Libya.  You're blathering at the wrong person.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Who the hell cares what you approve of?  You voted for the lying POS, so take some accountability for him.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Do you only vote for candidates that you agree with on every single issue?
> 
> Prove it.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Who cares what the American public think?  They promise one thing and do another with impunity in both parties.  That's why the term "democracy" means nothing whatsoever.  Essentially we just vote for lies and shrug our shoulders to absolve ourselves of any culpability for having voted for them.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> lol was that a yes or a no?
Click to expand...


I am just telling you to go hide under your "better than thou" partisan shell.  You obviously don't have enough brain power to survive without it.


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## Pogo

Votto said:


> Pogo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Votto said:
> 
> 
> 
> Islamic Genocide Boko Haram Slaughters 2 000 In One Day - Breitbart
> 
> Has anyone heard about this in the news?  I haven't.
> 
> Looks like Islam is on the move again Mo style.
> 
> No word yet on whether they were all cartoonists.
> 
> Not to worry though, Obama just came out and said none of them are true Muslims.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "Islam" is a religion.  A religion is by definition a concept.  A concept can't kill anybody.
> 
> Your link OTOH says Boko Haram did it.  That's humans.  Humans _can_ kill.
> 
> I'm a human.  I just killed your concept.
> 
> Hiya.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You know you are right.  I'm thinking its the same group of "humans" who go around blowing things up in the name of Allah.
Click to expand...


Brothers under the skin of the humans who go around blowing things up in the name of Jesus.

Yet somehow I never hear "Christianism bombs gay bar" or "Christianism murders abortion doctor".

Surely an oversight on my part.  I'm sure you covered these.  Toss me a link.  TIA.


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## Votto

Pogo said:


> Votto said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pogo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Votto said:
> 
> 
> 
> Islamic Genocide Boko Haram Slaughters 2 000 In One Day - Breitbart
> 
> Has anyone heard about this in the news?  I haven't.
> 
> Looks like Islam is on the move again Mo style.
> 
> No word yet on whether they were all cartoonists.
> 
> Not to worry though, Obama just came out and said none of them are true Muslims.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "Islam" is a religion.  A religion is by definition a concept.  A concept can't kill anybody.
> 
> Your link OTOH says Boko Haram did it.  That's humans.  Humans _can_ kill.
> 
> I'm a human.  I just killed your concept.
> 
> Hiya.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You know you are right.  I'm thinking its the same group of "humans" who go around blowing things up in the name of Allah.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Brothers under the skin of the humans who go around blowing things up in the name of Jesus.
> 
> Yet somehow I never hear "Christianism bombs gay bar" or "Christianism murders abortion doctor".
> 
> Surely an oversight on my part.  I'm sure you covered these.  Toss me a link.  TIA.
Click to expand...


Naturally there will be people killing in the name of pretty much anything.  However, there is a difference between Islam and Christianity. 

Christians follow the teachings and example of Jesus, none of which allows this sort of thing.  Those that do are going beyond his teachings and examples.

But Mo is a different story altogether.  With Mo we travel back to the OT days of murder, destruction, conquest.  He then adds to it a 9 year old bride.

Both religions believe their example is the perfect example.  Those that follow them must do as they do.......or else!


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## Pogo

Votto said:


> Pogo said:
> 
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> Votto said:
> 
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> Pogo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Votto said:
> 
> 
> 
> Islamic Genocide Boko Haram Slaughters 2 000 In One Day - Breitbart
> 
> Has anyone heard about this in the news?  I haven't.
> 
> Looks like Islam is on the move again Mo style.
> 
> No word yet on whether they were all cartoonists.
> 
> Not to worry though, Obama just came out and said none of them are true Muslims.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "Islam" is a religion.  A religion is by definition a concept.  A concept can't kill anybody.
> 
> Your link OTOH says Boko Haram did it.  That's humans.  Humans _can_ kill.
> 
> I'm a human.  I just killed your concept.
> 
> Hiya.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You know you are right.  I'm thinking its the same group of "humans" who go around blowing things up in the name of Allah.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Brothers under the skin of the humans who go around blowing things up in the name of Jesus.
> 
> Yet somehow I never hear "Christianism bombs gay bar" or "Christianism murders abortion doctor".
> 
> Surely an oversight on my part.  I'm sure you covered these.  Toss me a link.  TIA.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Naturally there will be people killing in the name of pretty much anything.  However, there is a difference between Islam and Christianity.
> 
> Christians follow the teachings and example of Jesus, none of which allows this sort of thing.  Those that do are going beyond his teachings and examples.
> 
> But Mo is a different story altogether.  With Mo we travel back to the OT days of murder, destruction, conquest.  He then adds to it a 9 year old bride.
> 
> Both religions believe their example is the perfect example.  Those that follow them must do as they do.......or else!
Click to expand...


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## Asclepias

Votto said:


> Pogo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Votto said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pogo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Votto said:
> 
> 
> 
> Islamic Genocide Boko Haram Slaughters 2 000 In One Day - Breitbart
> 
> Has anyone heard about this in the news?  I haven't.
> 
> Looks like Islam is on the move again Mo style.
> 
> No word yet on whether they were all cartoonists.
> 
> Not to worry though, Obama just came out and said none of them are true Muslims.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "Islam" is a religion.  A religion is by definition a concept.  A concept can't kill anybody.
> 
> Your link OTOH says Boko Haram did it.  That's humans.  Humans _can_ kill.
> 
> I'm a human.  I just killed your concept.
> 
> Hiya.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You know you are right.  I'm thinking its the same group of "humans" who go around blowing things up in the name of Allah.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Brothers under the skin of the humans who go around blowing things up in the name of Jesus.
> 
> Yet somehow I never hear "Christianism bombs gay bar" or "Christianism murders abortion doctor".
> 
> Surely an oversight on my part.  I'm sure you covered these.  Toss me a link.  TIA.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Naturally there will be people killing in the name of pretty much anything.  However, there is a difference between Islam and Christianity.
> 
> *Christians follow the teachings and example of Jesus, none of which allows this sort of thing.  Those that do are going beyond his teachings and examples.*
> 
> But Mo is a different story altogether.  With Mo we travel back to the OT days of murder, destruction, conquest.  He then adds to it a 9 year old bride.
> 
> Both religions believe their example is the perfect example.  Those that follow them must do as they do.......or else!
Click to expand...

BS Chritianity says to kill non believers too.


What the Bible says about non-Christians


"If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers; Namely, of the gods of the people which are round about you ... Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him: *But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people. And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die."* -- Dt.13:6-10


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## Votto

Asclepias said:


> Votto said:
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> Pogo said:
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> Votto said:
> 
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> Pogo said:
> 
> 
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> 
> 
> Votto said:
> 
> 
> 
> Islamic Genocide Boko Haram Slaughters 2 000 In One Day - Breitbart
> 
> Has anyone heard about this in the news?  I haven't.
> 
> Looks like Islam is on the move again Mo style.
> 
> No word yet on whether they were all cartoonists.
> 
> Not to worry though, Obama just came out and said none of them are true Muslims.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "Islam" is a religion.  A religion is by definition a concept.  A concept can't kill anybody.
> 
> Your link OTOH says Boko Haram did it.  That's humans.  Humans _can_ kill.
> 
> I'm a human.  I just killed your concept.
> 
> Hiya.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You know you are right.  I'm thinking its the same group of "humans" who go around blowing things up in the name of Allah.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Brothers under the skin of the humans who go around blowing things up in the name of Jesus.
> 
> Yet somehow I never hear "Christianism bombs gay bar" or "Christianism murders abortion doctor".
> 
> Surely an oversight on my part.  I'm sure you covered these.  Toss me a link.  TIA.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Naturally there will be people killing in the name of pretty much anything.  However, there is a difference between Islam and Christianity.
> 
> *Christians follow the teachings and example of Jesus, none of which allows this sort of thing.  Those that do are going beyond his teachings and examples.*
> 
> But Mo is a different story altogether.  With Mo we travel back to the OT days of murder, destruction, conquest.  He then adds to it a 9 year old bride.
> 
> Both religions believe their example is the perfect example.  Those that follow them must do as they do.......or else!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> BS Chritianity says to kill non believers too.
> 
> 
> What the Bible says about non-Christians
> 
> 
> "If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers; Namely, of the gods of the people which are round about you ... Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him: *But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people. And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die."* -- Dt.13:6-10
Click to expand...


Christianity does not teach to kill, specifically, Jesus did not teach to kill.

Jesus said that you have been told of old to kill your enemies, but I tell you to love them instead.

Jesus NEVER killed, NEVER told anyone to kill, and NEVER took a slave, a child wife, or conquer with the sword.

Over and over Jesus said that his kingdom is not of this world, even though apostates like Constantine, who did not even convert to the faith, hijacked Christianity and created a kingdom in the world in the name of Christ.

For the Christian, only Jesus was perfect.  Not even great men in the OT were perfect, like Moses.  Moses is pictures as a murderer, someone who stuttered so bad he had to have his brother speak for him, and sinned against God which prevented him from going into the Promised land.

Of course, Islam says otherwise,  They paint pretty much every prophet in the Bible as perfect, and then add that the scriptures have been "corrupted" which is why they are not perfect in the Bible.  It's the only way to give credence to the notion that Mo was perfect.  Only if men can be perfect can Mo be perfect.  Any half wit can attest otherwise.

The only reason Jesus was perfect was because he was God in the flesh.


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## Pogo

"When _we_ do it it's just; when _they_ do it it's barbarism".

Why that's about the most original concept I've heard all day.

Yawn....


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## Asclepias

Votto said:


> Asclepias said:
> 
> 
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> Votto said:
> 
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> Pogo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Votto said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pogo said:
> 
> 
> 
> "Islam" is a religion.  A religion is by definition a concept.  A concept can't kill anybody.
> 
> Your link OTOH says Boko Haram did it.  That's humans.  Humans _can_ kill.
> 
> I'm a human.  I just killed your concept.
> 
> Hiya.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You know you are right.  I'm thinking its the same group of "humans" who go around blowing things up in the name of Allah.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Brothers under the skin of the humans who go around blowing things up in the name of Jesus.
> 
> Yet somehow I never hear "Christianism bombs gay bar" or "Christianism murders abortion doctor".
> 
> Surely an oversight on my part.  I'm sure you covered these.  Toss me a link.  TIA.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Naturally there will be people killing in the name of pretty much anything.  However, there is a difference between Islam and Christianity.
> 
> *Christians follow the teachings and example of Jesus, none of which allows this sort of thing.  Those that do are going beyond his teachings and examples.*
> 
> But Mo is a different story altogether.  With Mo we travel back to the OT days of murder, destruction, conquest.  He then adds to it a 9 year old bride.
> 
> Both religions believe their example is the perfect example.  Those that follow them must do as they do.......or else!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> BS Chritianity says to kill non believers too.
> 
> 
> What the Bible says about non-Christians
> 
> 
> "If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers; Namely, of the gods of the people which are round about you ... Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him: *But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people. And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die."* -- Dt.13:6-10
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Christianity does not teach to kill, specifically, Jesus did not teach to kill.
> 
> Jesus said that you have been told of old to kill your enemies, but I tell you to love them instead.
> 
> Jesus NEVER killed, NEVER told anyone to kill, and NEVER took a slave, a child wife, or conquer with the sword.
> 
> Over and over Jesus said that his kingdom is not of this world, even though apostates like Constantine, who did not even convert to the faith, hijacked Christianity and created a kingdom in the world in the name of Christ.
> 
> For the Christian, only Jesus was perfect.  Not even great men in the OT were perfect, like Moses.  Moses is pictures as a murderer, someone who stuttered so bad he had to have his brother speak for him, and sinned against God which prevented him from going into the Promised land.
> 
> Of course, Islam says otherwise,  They paint pretty much every prophet in the Bible as perfect, and then add that the scriptures have been "corrupted" which is why they are not perfect in the Bible.  It's the only way to give credence to the notion that Mo was perfect.  Only if men can be perfect can Mo be perfect.  Any half wit can attest otherwise.
> 
> The only reason Jesus was perfect was because he was God in the flesh.
Click to expand...

Jesus didnt do all those things because he was a made up figure. He wasnt god in flesh. He was the son. The quote I gave you is in the NT. Deuteronomy


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## Osomir

Votto said:


> Islamic Genocide Boko Haram Slaughters 2 000 In One Day - Breitbart
> 
> Has anyone heard about this in the news?  I haven't.
> 
> Looks like Islam is on the move again Mo style.
> 
> No word yet on whether they were all cartoonists.
> 
> Not to worry though, Obama just came out and said none of them are true Muslims.



Pretty disrespectful to lump the victims in with their attackers like that. Seems evident that you care less about those who died than you do about being able to utilize this story to push an anti-Islamic sentiment.


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## emilynghiem

Votto said:


> Islamic Genocide Boko Haram Slaughters 2 000 In One Day - Breitbart
> 
> Has anyone heard about this in the news?  I haven't.
> 
> Looks like Islam is on the move again Mo style.
> 
> No word yet on whether they were all cartoonists.
> 
> Not to worry though, Obama just came out and said none of them are true Muslims.



If Muslims follow the religion of PEACE, where there is NO COMPULSION in religion according to Mohammad,
and SURA 109 calls for people to respect each other's ways if there is disagreement they cannot resolve,
then NO clearly those who kill violently are not practicing peace or tolerance of differences.

You answered your own question.


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## emilynghiem

Asclepias said:


> Votto said:
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> Asclepias said:
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> Votto said:
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> Pogo said:
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> Votto said:
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> You know you are right.  I'm thinking its the same group of "humans" who go around blowing things up in the name of Allah.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Brothers under the skin of the humans who go around blowing things up in the name of Jesus.
> 
> Yet somehow I never hear "Christianism bombs gay bar" or "Christianism murders abortion doctor".
> 
> Surely an oversight on my part.  I'm sure you covered these.  Toss me a link.  TIA.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Naturally there will be people killing in the name of pretty much anything.  However, there is a difference between Islam and Christianity.
> 
> *Christians follow the teachings and example of Jesus, none of which allows this sort of thing.  Those that do are going beyond his teachings and examples.*
> 
> But Mo is a different story altogether.  With Mo we travel back to the OT days of murder, destruction, conquest.  He then adds to it a 9 year old bride.
> 
> Both religions believe their example is the perfect example.  Those that follow them must do as they do.......or else!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> BS Chritianity says to kill non believers too.
> 
> 
> What the Bible says about non-Christians
> 
> 
> "If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers; Namely, of the gods of the people which are round about you ... Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him: *But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people. And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die."* -- Dt.13:6-10
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Christianity does not teach to kill, specifically, Jesus did not teach to kill.
> 
> Jesus said that you have been told of old to kill your enemies, but I tell you to love them instead.
> 
> Jesus NEVER killed, NEVER told anyone to kill, and NEVER took a slave, a child wife, or conquer with the sword.
> 
> Over and over Jesus said that his kingdom is not of this world, even though apostates like Constantine, who did not even convert to the faith, hijacked Christianity and created a kingdom in the world in the name of Christ.
> 
> For the Christian, only Jesus was perfect.  Not even great men in the OT were perfect, like Moses.  Moses is pictures as a murderer, someone who stuttered so bad he had to have his brother speak for him, and sinned against God which prevented him from going into the Promised land.
> 
> Of course, Islam says otherwise,  They paint pretty much every prophet in the Bible as perfect, and then add that the scriptures have been "corrupted" which is why they are not perfect in the Bible.  It's the only way to give credence to the notion that Mo was perfect.  Only if men can be perfect can Mo be perfect.  Any half wit can attest otherwise.
> 
> The only reason Jesus was perfect was because he was God in the flesh.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Jesus didnt do all those things because he was a made up figure. He wasnt god in flesh. He was the son. The quote I gave you is in the NT. Deuteronomy
Click to expand...

Hi Asclepias
The side of Jesus that secular gentiles tend to understand is Justice under natural laws which is the laws of man.
The side of Jesus that the church refers to is Salvation by God's grace on a spiritual collective level.

He is both. Jesus represents the spirit of Universal Justice that fulfills
BOTH the sacred laws of the Church under God and the natural laws of man under civil
authority of Govt and the State. We are supposed to be joined in harmony
with Peace and Justice for ALL by establishing universal truth, which is what God represents.

Just because you only relate to one side of Jesus as Justice on a local level
doesn't mean the same Jesus can't represent Salvation on the broader scale.

Both, not either/or, but all of the above.

The Father and Son are one. *John 10:29–30  *My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. *I and the Father are one.*


----------



## Asclepias

emilynghiem said:


> Asclepias said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Votto said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Asclepias said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Votto said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pogo said:
> 
> 
> 
> Brothers under the skin of the humans who go around blowing things up in the name of Jesus.
> 
> Yet somehow I never hear "Christianism bombs gay bar" or "Christianism murders abortion doctor".
> 
> Surely an oversight on my part.  I'm sure you covered these.  Toss me a link.  TIA.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Naturally there will be people killing in the name of pretty much anything.  However, there is a difference between Islam and Christianity.
> 
> *Christians follow the teachings and example of Jesus, none of which allows this sort of thing.  Those that do are going beyond his teachings and examples.*
> 
> But Mo is a different story altogether.  With Mo we travel back to the OT days of murder, destruction, conquest.  He then adds to it a 9 year old bride.
> 
> Both religions believe their example is the perfect example.  Those that follow them must do as they do.......or else!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> BS Chritianity says to kill non believers too.
> 
> 
> What the Bible says about non-Christians
> 
> 
> "If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers; Namely, of the gods of the people which are round about you ... Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him: *But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people. And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die."* -- Dt.13:6-10
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Christianity does not teach to kill, specifically, Jesus did not teach to kill.
> 
> Jesus said that you have been told of old to kill your enemies, but I tell you to love them instead.
> 
> Jesus NEVER killed, NEVER told anyone to kill, and NEVER took a slave, a child wife, or conquer with the sword.
> 
> Over and over Jesus said that his kingdom is not of this world, even though apostates like Constantine, who did not even convert to the faith, hijacked Christianity and created a kingdom in the world in the name of Christ.
> 
> For the Christian, only Jesus was perfect.  Not even great men in the OT were perfect, like Moses.  Moses is pictures as a murderer, someone who stuttered so bad he had to have his brother speak for him, and sinned against God which prevented him from going into the Promised land.
> 
> Of course, Islam says otherwise,  They paint pretty much every prophet in the Bible as perfect, and then add that the scriptures have been "corrupted" which is why they are not perfect in the Bible.  It's the only way to give credence to the notion that Mo was perfect.  Only if men can be perfect can Mo be perfect.  Any half wit can attest otherwise.
> 
> The only reason Jesus was perfect was because he was God in the flesh.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Jesus didnt do all those things because he was a made up figure. He wasnt god in flesh. He was the son. The quote I gave you is in the NT. Deuteronomy
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Hi Asclepias
> The side of Jesus that secular gentiles tend to understand is Justice under natural laws which is the laws of man.
> The side of Jesus that the church refers to is Salvation by God's grace on a spiritual collective level.
> 
> He is both. Jesus represents the spirit of Universal Justice that fulfills
> BOTH the sacred laws of the Church under God and the natural laws of man under civil
> authority of Govt and the State. We are supposed to be joined in harmony
> with Peace and Justice for ALL by establishing universal truth, which is what God represents.
> 
> Just because you only relate to one side of Jesus as Justice on a local level
> doesn't mean the same Jesus can't represent Salvation on the broader scale.
> 
> Both, not either/or, but all of the above.
> 
> The Father and Son are one. *John 10:29–30  *My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. *I and the Father are one.*
Click to expand...

I find that hard to believe. Why would you go through all the trouble of having a child by immaculate conception, claim that child is your only begotten son, kill him and then claim it was you all along? Does that make sense to you?

“For God so loved the world,that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life."
John 3:16


----------



## emilynghiem

Asclepias said:


> emilynghiem said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Asclepias said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Votto said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Asclepias said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Votto said:
> 
> 
> 
> Naturally there will be people killing in the name of pretty much anything.  However, there is a difference between Islam and Christianity.
> 
> *Christians follow the teachings and example of Jesus, none of which allows this sort of thing.  Those that do are going beyond his teachings and examples.*
> 
> But Mo is a different story altogether.  With Mo we travel back to the OT days of murder, destruction, conquest.  He then adds to it a 9 year old bride.
> 
> Both religions believe their example is the perfect example.  Those that follow them must do as they do.......or else!
> 
> 
> 
> BS Chritianity says to kill non believers too.
> 
> 
> What the Bible says about non-Christians
> 
> 
> "If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers; Namely, of the gods of the people which are round about you ... Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him: *But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people. And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die."* -- Dt.13:6-10
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Christianity does not teach to kill, specifically, Jesus did not teach to kill.
> 
> Jesus said that you have been told of old to kill your enemies, but I tell you to love them instead.
> 
> Jesus NEVER killed, NEVER told anyone to kill, and NEVER took a slave, a child wife, or conquer with the sword.
> 
> Over and over Jesus said that his kingdom is not of this world, even though apostates like Constantine, who did not even convert to the faith, hijacked Christianity and created a kingdom in the world in the name of Christ.
> 
> For the Christian, only Jesus was perfect.  Not even great men in the OT were perfect, like Moses.  Moses is pictures as a murderer, someone who stuttered so bad he had to have his brother speak for him, and sinned against God which prevented him from going into the Promised land.
> 
> Of course, Islam says otherwise,  They paint pretty much every prophet in the Bible as perfect, and then add that the scriptures have been "corrupted" which is why they are not perfect in the Bible.  It's the only way to give credence to the notion that Mo was perfect.  Only if men can be perfect can Mo be perfect.  Any half wit can attest otherwise.
> 
> The only reason Jesus was perfect was because he was God in the flesh.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Jesus didnt do all those things because he was a made up figure. He wasnt god in flesh. He was the son. The quote I gave you is in the NT. Deuteronomy
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Hi Asclepias
> The side of Jesus that secular gentiles tend to understand is Justice under natural laws which is the laws of man.
> The side of Jesus that the church refers to is Salvation by God's grace on a spiritual collective level.
> 
> He is both. Jesus represents the spirit of Universal Justice that fulfills
> BOTH the sacred laws of the Church under God and the natural laws of man under civil
> authority of Govt and the State. We are supposed to be joined in harmony
> with Peace and Justice for ALL by establishing universal truth, which is what God represents.
> 
> Just because you only relate to one side of Jesus as Justice on a local level
> doesn't mean the same Jesus can't represent Salvation on the broader scale.
> 
> Both, not either/or, but all of the above.
> 
> The Father and Son are one. *John 10:29–30  *My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. *I and the Father are one.*
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I find that hard to believe. Why would you go through all the trouble of having a child by immaculate conception, claim that child is your only begotten son, kill him and then claim it was you all along? Does that make sense to you?
> 
> “For God so loved the world,that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life."
> John 3:16
Click to expand...


Dear Asclepias
This is all SYMBOLIC of the spiritual process by which Justice is made real after Injustice has destroyed humanity.

In order to repair the damage done, this perfect embodiment of Divine Justice with Mercy
has been SENT into the world to bring forgiveness, healing and correction.

In order for this spiritual energy and process to PERMEATE through all the realms of humanity,
past present and future, to correct and heal ALL wrongs over time and space,
the sacrifice and redemption/resurrection of Christ represents the death and rebirth process
to cleanse away and transform all that was injurious into that which is beneficial and good.

Asclepias if you have ever had to clean out viruses that completely invaded your computer
you may have to DOWNLOAD a virus cleaning program into the system,
then KILL it, and REBOOT before the program can infiltrate through all the files to
find and fix the infected areas.  So sending Jesus or God's perfect will and divine justice with mercy
into the world and then "killing and rebooting" the system with Christ embedded in man's level
allows this process to take root and be used to cleanse out the bad and to restore the system to work properly.

that's a close analogy I can use to explain how it works globally

If Jesus had flaws and bugs, then this could not be used to clean out the system
but would inject more bugs and flaws.

What the immaculate birth without sin represents is being born into this
world with no previous "karma" or conditioning from parents generations,
otherwise someone has loyalty or debts to one person more than others and is biased.

Jesus as perfect justice means having no bias toward or against any person
so all persons are included equally. No human has that ability as we are all born
under karmic or social conditioning and will favor our families or loved ones more
than strangers we don't know. Jesus represents "equal justice for all people"
universally on a scale that humans are too biased to establish. So this represents
divine justice on a collective scale for all humanity combined over time and space.


----------



## Asclepias

emilynghiem said:


> Asclepias said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> emilynghiem said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Asclepias said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Votto said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Asclepias said:
> 
> 
> 
> BS Chritianity says to kill non believers too.
> 
> 
> What the Bible says about non-Christians
> 
> 
> "If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers; Namely, of the gods of the people which are round about you ... Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him: *But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people. And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die."* -- Dt.13:6-10
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Christianity does not teach to kill, specifically, Jesus did not teach to kill.
> 
> Jesus said that you have been told of old to kill your enemies, but I tell you to love them instead.
> 
> Jesus NEVER killed, NEVER told anyone to kill, and NEVER took a slave, a child wife, or conquer with the sword.
> 
> Over and over Jesus said that his kingdom is not of this world, even though apostates like Constantine, who did not even convert to the faith, hijacked Christianity and created a kingdom in the world in the name of Christ.
> 
> For the Christian, only Jesus was perfect.  Not even great men in the OT were perfect, like Moses.  Moses is pictures as a murderer, someone who stuttered so bad he had to have his brother speak for him, and sinned against God which prevented him from going into the Promised land.
> 
> Of course, Islam says otherwise,  They paint pretty much every prophet in the Bible as perfect, and then add that the scriptures have been "corrupted" which is why they are not perfect in the Bible.  It's the only way to give credence to the notion that Mo was perfect.  Only if men can be perfect can Mo be perfect.  Any half wit can attest otherwise.
> 
> The only reason Jesus was perfect was because he was God in the flesh.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Jesus didnt do all those things because he was a made up figure. He wasnt god in flesh. He was the son. The quote I gave you is in the NT. Deuteronomy
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Hi Asclepias
> The side of Jesus that secular gentiles tend to understand is Justice under natural laws which is the laws of man.
> The side of Jesus that the church refers to is Salvation by God's grace on a spiritual collective level.
> 
> He is both. Jesus represents the spirit of Universal Justice that fulfills
> BOTH the sacred laws of the Church under God and the natural laws of man under civil
> authority of Govt and the State. We are supposed to be joined in harmony
> with Peace and Justice for ALL by establishing universal truth, which is what God represents.
> 
> Just because you only relate to one side of Jesus as Justice on a local level
> doesn't mean the same Jesus can't represent Salvation on the broader scale.
> 
> Both, not either/or, but all of the above.
> 
> The Father and Son are one. *John 10:29–30  *My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. *I and the Father are one.*
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I find that hard to believe. Why would you go through all the trouble of having a child by immaculate conception, claim that child is your only begotten son, kill him and then claim it was you all along? Does that make sense to you?
> 
> “For God so loved the world,that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life."
> John 3:16
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Dear Asclepias
> This is all SYMBOLIC of the spiritual process by which Justice is made real after Injustice has destroyed humanity.
> 
> In order to repair the damage done, this perfect embodiment of Divine Justice with Mercy
> has been SENT into the world to bring forgiveness, healing and correction.
> 
> In order for this spiritual energy and process to PERMEATE through all the realms of humanity,
> past present and future, to correct and heal ALL wrongs over time and space,
> the sacrifice and redemption/resurrection of Christ represents the death and rebirth process
> to cleanse away and transform all that was injurious into that which is beneficial and good.
> 
> Asclepias if you have ever had to clean out viruses that completely invaded your computer
> you may have to DOWNLOAD a virus cleaning program into the system,
> then KILL it, and REBOOT before the program can infiltrate through all the files to
> find and fix the infected areas.  So sending Jesus or God's perfect will and divine justice with mercy
> into the world and then "killing and rebooting" the system with Christ embedded in man's level
> allows this process to take root and be used to cleanse out the bad and to restore the system to work properly.
> 
> that's a close analogy I can use to explain how it works globally
> 
> If Jesus had flaws and bugs, then this could not be used to clean out the system
> but would inject more bugs and flaws.
> 
> What the immaculate birth without sin represents is being born into this
> world with no previous "karma" or conditioning from parents generations,
> otherwise someone has loyalty or debts to one person more than others and is biased.
> 
> Jesus as perfect justice means having no bias toward or against any person
> so all persons are included equally. No human has that ability as we are all born
> under karmic or social conditioning and will favor our families or loved ones more
> than strangers we don't know. Jesus represents "equal justice for all people"
> universally on a scale that humans are too biased to establish. So this represents
> divine justice on a collective scale for all humanity combined over time and space.
Click to expand...

We're talking about god here. He could snap his fingers and fix everything and no one would be the wiser. Whats all the rigmarole for?  Why would god want us to follow his teachings then make the teachings convoluted and subject to interpretation? Sounds exactly like something man would write and use for social control.


----------



## emilynghiem

Asclepias said:


> emilynghiem said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Asclepias said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> emilynghiem said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Asclepias said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Votto said:
> 
> 
> 
> Christianity does not teach to kill, specifically, Jesus did not teach to kill.
> 
> Jesus said that you have been told of old to kill your enemies, but I tell you to love them instead.
> 
> Jesus NEVER killed, NEVER told anyone to kill, and NEVER took a slave, a child wife, or conquer with the sword.
> 
> Over and over Jesus said that his kingdom is not of this world, even though apostates like Constantine, who did not even convert to the faith, hijacked Christianity and created a kingdom in the world in the name of Christ.
> 
> For the Christian, only Jesus was perfect.  Not even great men in the OT were perfect, like Moses.  Moses is pictures as a murderer, someone who stuttered so bad he had to have his brother speak for him, and sinned against God which prevented him from going into the Promised land.
> 
> Of course, Islam says otherwise,  They paint pretty much every prophet in the Bible as perfect, and then add that the scriptures have been "corrupted" which is why they are not perfect in the Bible.  It's the only way to give credence to the notion that Mo was perfect.  Only if men can be perfect can Mo be perfect.  Any half wit can attest otherwise.
> 
> The only reason Jesus was perfect was because he was God in the flesh.
> 
> 
> 
> Jesus didnt do all those things because he was a made up figure. He wasnt god in flesh. He was the son. The quote I gave you is in the NT. Deuteronomy
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Hi Asclepias
> The side of Jesus that secular gentiles tend to understand is Justice under natural laws which is the laws of man.
> The side of Jesus that the church refers to is Salvation by God's grace on a spiritual collective level.
> 
> He is both. Jesus represents the spirit of Universal Justice that fulfills
> BOTH the sacred laws of the Church under God and the natural laws of man under civil
> authority of Govt and the State. We are supposed to be joined in harmony
> with Peace and Justice for ALL by establishing universal truth, which is what God represents.
> 
> Just because you only relate to one side of Jesus as Justice on a local level
> doesn't mean the same Jesus can't represent Salvation on the broader scale.
> 
> Both, not either/or, but all of the above.
> 
> The Father and Son are one. *John 10:29–30  *My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. *I and the Father are one.*
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I find that hard to believe. Why would you go through all the trouble of having a child by immaculate conception, claim that child is your only begotten son, kill him and then claim it was you all along? Does that make sense to you?
> 
> “For God so loved the world,that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life."
> John 3:16
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Dear Asclepias
> This is all SYMBOLIC of the spiritual process by which Justice is made real after Injustice has destroyed humanity.
> 
> In order to repair the damage done, this perfect embodiment of Divine Justice with Mercy
> has been SENT into the world to bring forgiveness, healing and correction.
> 
> In order for this spiritual energy and process to PERMEATE through all the realms of humanity,
> past present and future, to correct and heal ALL wrongs over time and space,
> the sacrifice and redemption/resurrection of Christ represents the death and rebirth process
> to cleanse away and transform all that was injurious into that which is beneficial and good.
> 
> Asclepias if you have ever had to clean out viruses that completely invaded your computer
> you may have to DOWNLOAD a virus cleaning program into the system,
> then KILL it, and REBOOT before the program can infiltrate through all the files to
> find and fix the infected areas.  So sending Jesus or God's perfect will and divine justice with mercy
> into the world and then "killing and rebooting" the system with Christ embedded in man's level
> allows this process to take root and be used to cleanse out the bad and to restore the system to work properly.
> 
> that's a close analogy I can use to explain how it works globally
> 
> If Jesus had flaws and bugs, then this could not be used to clean out the system
> but would inject more bugs and flaws.
> 
> What the immaculate birth without sin represents is being born into this
> world with no previous "karma" or conditioning from parents generations,
> otherwise someone has loyalty or debts to one person more than others and is biased.
> 
> Jesus as perfect justice means having no bias toward or against any person
> so all persons are included equally. No human has that ability as we are all born
> under karmic or social conditioning and will favor our families or loved ones more
> than strangers we don't know. Jesus represents "equal justice for all people"
> universally on a scale that humans are too biased to establish. So this represents
> divine justice on a collective scale for all humanity combined over time and space.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> We're talking about god here. He could snap his fingers and fix everything and no one would be the wiser. Whats all the rigmarole for?  Why would god want us to follow his teachings then make the teachings convoluted and subject to interpretation? Sounds exactly like something man would write and use for social control.
Click to expand...


Hi Asclepias everything on earth man hijacks and abuses for control. Of course religion
is, both church and state laws, and any collective organization is going to have power
imbalance which gets corrupted.

Look at the laws of science that have people fighting politically over
geocentric vs. heliocentric to the point of executing people for heresy,
the fight over evolution/creation, over global warming vs. monopoly on carbon credits etc etc.
Anything even science can get abused and politicized for control.

That's a whole other issue.
Just because man abuses science doesn't make science false.
Politicians abuse govt, and we don't throw it out we try to correct that by Constitutional checks and balances
and corrections USING the given system and laws for reforming itself.

Same with the church laws that are used to rebuke and correct
to check the abuses of authority that happen with ANY collective group,
whether church or state, whether business or nonprofit. Even Red Cross
got caught messing with donations, are you going to throw them out because of corruption and abuse?

As for God, the point of our free will and reason is to learn by experience and choice.
So there are good consequences for doing things right in harmony and effectively.
And there are bad consequences for doing things out of line, in conflict error or wastefully/abusively.

If God could magically correct all our bad math answers so we make 100,
we would never learn right from wrong answers or the process of catching
and correcting our own errors.

If God could magically heal our bodies we ruined by abusing them,
then we wouldn't learn responsible and healthy balanced behavior.
We'd do "whatever" because God would just fix it anyway.

That's not what humans are designed to do.

We study cause and effect. If there is physical or social ills
we STUDY what went wrong so we can prevent, reduce or fix it.

That's how we are designed, to carry knowledge by conscience
on a learning curve of "trial and error" of seeking peace/satisfaction
and avoiding pain/suffering, using binary logic of yes/no to seek
what satisfies our will and humanity's greater good at the same time.

On this learning curve, we learn that forgiveness retribution and ill will
begets more negativity and DOESN'T solve problems but escalates them.
We learn that forgiving and working together to resolve conflicts and
rebuild and restore relations and society from past damages
is more sustainable and helps with prevention by learning from our mistakes
and what it takes to fix the damage done by past injustice and wrongs.

There is no shortcut Asclepias

If God were to intervene and fix whatever,
regardless if we acknowledged what went right and what went wrong,
we wouldn't improve. we'd just let God fix it and keep making huge messes!

So there must be consequences for our actions
so we learn the process of cause and effect
and learn to work more effectively and sustainably over time.

No magic fixes is going to teach us to learn and correct our own errors in judgment and action.


----------



## Asclepias

emilynghiem said:


> Asclepias said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> emilynghiem said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Asclepias said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> emilynghiem said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Asclepias said:
> 
> 
> 
> Jesus didnt do all those things because he was a made up figure. He wasnt god in flesh. He was the son. The quote I gave you is in the NT. Deuteronomy
> 
> 
> 
> Hi Asclepias
> The side of Jesus that secular gentiles tend to understand is Justice under natural laws which is the laws of man.
> The side of Jesus that the church refers to is Salvation by God's grace on a spiritual collective level.
> 
> He is both. Jesus represents the spirit of Universal Justice that fulfills
> BOTH the sacred laws of the Church under God and the natural laws of man under civil
> authority of Govt and the State. We are supposed to be joined in harmony
> with Peace and Justice for ALL by establishing universal truth, which is what God represents.
> 
> Just because you only relate to one side of Jesus as Justice on a local level
> doesn't mean the same Jesus can't represent Salvation on the broader scale.
> 
> Both, not either/or, but all of the above.
> 
> The Father and Son are one. *John 10:29–30  *My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. *I and the Father are one.*
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I find that hard to believe. Why would you go through all the trouble of having a child by immaculate conception, claim that child is your only begotten son, kill him and then claim it was you all along? Does that make sense to you?
> 
> “For God so loved the world,that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life."
> John 3:16
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Dear Asclepias
> This is all SYMBOLIC of the spiritual process by which Justice is made real after Injustice has destroyed humanity.
> 
> In order to repair the damage done, this perfect embodiment of Divine Justice with Mercy
> has been SENT into the world to bring forgiveness, healing and correction.
> 
> In order for this spiritual energy and process to PERMEATE through all the realms of humanity,
> past present and future, to correct and heal ALL wrongs over time and space,
> the sacrifice and redemption/resurrection of Christ represents the death and rebirth process
> to cleanse away and transform all that was injurious into that which is beneficial and good.
> 
> Asclepias if you have ever had to clean out viruses that completely invaded your computer
> you may have to DOWNLOAD a virus cleaning program into the system,
> then KILL it, and REBOOT before the program can infiltrate through all the files to
> find and fix the infected areas.  So sending Jesus or God's perfect will and divine justice with mercy
> into the world and then "killing and rebooting" the system with Christ embedded in man's level
> allows this process to take root and be used to cleanse out the bad and to restore the system to work properly.
> 
> that's a close analogy I can use to explain how it works globally
> 
> If Jesus had flaws and bugs, then this could not be used to clean out the system
> but would inject more bugs and flaws.
> 
> What the immaculate birth without sin represents is being born into this
> world with no previous "karma" or conditioning from parents generations,
> otherwise someone has loyalty or debts to one person more than others and is biased.
> 
> Jesus as perfect justice means having no bias toward or against any person
> so all persons are included equally. No human has that ability as we are all born
> under karmic or social conditioning and will favor our families or loved ones more
> than strangers we don't know. Jesus represents "equal justice for all people"
> universally on a scale that humans are too biased to establish. So this represents
> divine justice on a collective scale for all humanity combined over time and space.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> We're talking about god here. He could snap his fingers and fix everything and no one would be the wiser. Whats all the rigmarole for?  Why would god want us to follow his teachings then make the teachings convoluted and subject to interpretation? Sounds exactly like something man would write and use for social control.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Hi Asclepias everything on earth man hijacks and abuses for control. Of course religion
> is, both church and state laws, and any collective organization is going to have power
> imbalance which gets corrupted.
> 
> Look at the laws of science that have people fighting politically over
> geocentric vs. heliocentric to the point of executing people for heresy,
> the fight over evolution/creation, over global warming vs. monopoly on carbon credits etc etc.
> Anything even science can get abused and politicized for control.
> 
> That's a whole other issue.
> Just because man abuses science doesn't make science false.
> Politicians abuse govt, and we don't throw it out we try to correct that by Constitutional checks and balances
> and corrections USING the given system and laws for reforming itself.
> 
> Same with the church laws that are used to rebuke and correct
> to check the abuses of authority that happen with ANY collective group,
> whether church or state, whether business or nonprofit. Even Red Cross
> got caught messing with donations, are you going to throw them out because of corruption and abuse?
> 
> As for God, the point of our free will and reason is to learn by experience and choice.
> So there are good consequences for doing things right in harmony and effectively.
> And there are bad consequences for doing things out of line, in conflict error or wastefully/abusively.
> 
> If God could magically correct all our bad math answers so we make 100,
> we would never learn right from wrong answers or the process of catching
> and correcting our own errors.
> 
> If God could magically heal our bodies we ruined by abusing them,
> then we wouldn't learn responsible and healthy balanced behavior.
> We'd do "whatever" because God would just fix it anyway.
> 
> That's not what humans are designed to do.
> 
> We study cause and effect. If there is physical or social ills
> we STUDY what went wrong so we can prevent, reduce or fix it.
> 
> That's how we are designed, to carry knowledge by conscience
> on a learning curve of "trial and error" of seeking peace/satisfaction
> and avoiding pain/suffering, using binary logic of yes/no to seek
> what satisfies our will and humanity's greater good at the same time.
> 
> On this learning curve, we learn that forgiveness retribution and ill will
> begets more negativity and DOESN'T solve problems but escalates them.
> We learn that forgiving and working together to resolve conflicts and
> rebuild and restore relations and society from past damages
> is more sustainable and helps with prevention by learning from our mistakes
> and what it takes to fix the damage done by past injustice and wrongs.
> 
> There is no shortcut Asclepias
> 
> If God were to intervene and fix whatever,
> regardless if we acknowledged what went right and what went wrong,
> we wouldn't improve. we'd just let God fix it and keep making huge messes!
> 
> So there must be consequences for our actions
> so we learn the process of cause and effect
> and learn to work more effectively and sustainably over time.
> 
> No magic fixes is going to teach us to learn and correct our own errors in judgment and action.
Click to expand...

That still makes no sense. Its an exercise in futility. We are getting worse as a species not improving. Science doesnt advance the theory of morality so it is totally different than a concept that depends on a all seeing individual that cant seem to see the inherent flaws of humans. We had the correct method of living long ago and have moved past that into increasingly dangerous and negative cultures. At this point we possess the ability to wipe out life on earth as we know it yet we dont deserve that ability. We are over populated and out of natural balance. Little children dying of abuse, going hungry, being molested etc etc is a weird way to teach those children consequences. Why doesnt god intervene on behalf of these children? These are innocents. To me that is evidence there is no god per say such as the one in the bible. Whatever or whoever created us is not a god concerned with our morals and ethics.


----------



## Steinlight

Asclepias said:


> emilynghiem said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Asclepias said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> emilynghiem said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Asclepias said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Votto said:
> 
> 
> 
> Christianity does not teach to kill, specifically, Jesus did not teach to kill.
> 
> Jesus said that you have been told of old to kill your enemies, but I tell you to love them instead.
> 
> Jesus NEVER killed, NEVER told anyone to kill, and NEVER took a slave, a child wife, or conquer with the sword.
> 
> Over and over Jesus said that his kingdom is not of this world, even though apostates like Constantine, who did not even convert to the faith, hijacked Christianity and created a kingdom in the world in the name of Christ.
> 
> For the Christian, only Jesus was perfect.  Not even great men in the OT were perfect, like Moses.  Moses is pictures as a murderer, someone who stuttered so bad he had to have his brother speak for him, and sinned against God which prevented him from going into the Promised land.
> 
> Of course, Islam says otherwise,  They paint pretty much every prophet in the Bible as perfect, and then add that the scriptures have been "corrupted" which is why they are not perfect in the Bible.  It's the only way to give credence to the notion that Mo was perfect.  Only if men can be perfect can Mo be perfect.  Any half wit can attest otherwise.
> 
> The only reason Jesus was perfect was because he was God in the flesh.
> 
> 
> 
> Jesus didnt do all those things because he was a made up figure. He wasnt god in flesh. He was the son. The quote I gave you is in the NT. Deuteronomy
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Hi Asclepias
> The side of Jesus that secular gentiles tend to understand is Justice under natural laws which is the laws of man.
> The side of Jesus that the church refers to is Salvation by God's grace on a spiritual collective level.
> 
> He is both. Jesus represents the spirit of Universal Justice that fulfills
> BOTH the sacred laws of the Church under God and the natural laws of man under civil
> authority of Govt and the State. We are supposed to be joined in harmony
> with Peace and Justice for ALL by establishing universal truth, which is what God represents.
> 
> Just because you only relate to one side of Jesus as Justice on a local level
> doesn't mean the same Jesus can't represent Salvation on the broader scale.
> 
> Both, not either/or, but all of the above.
> 
> The Father and Son are one. *John 10:29–30  *My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. *I and the Father are one.*
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I find that hard to believe. Why would you go through all the trouble of having a child by immaculate conception, claim that child is your only begotten son, kill him and then claim it was you all along? Does that make sense to you?
> 
> “For God so loved the world,that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life."
> John 3:16
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Dear Asclepias
> This is all SYMBOLIC of the spiritual process by which Justice is made real after Injustice has destroyed humanity.
> 
> In order to repair the damage done, this perfect embodiment of Divine Justice with Mercy
> has been SENT into the world to bring forgiveness, healing and correction.
> 
> In order for this spiritual energy and process to PERMEATE through all the realms of humanity,
> past present and future, to correct and heal ALL wrongs over time and space,
> the sacrifice and redemption/resurrection of Christ represents the death and rebirth process
> to cleanse away and transform all that was injurious into that which is beneficial and good.
> 
> Asclepias if you have ever had to clean out viruses that completely invaded your computer
> you may have to DOWNLOAD a virus cleaning program into the system,
> then KILL it, and REBOOT before the program can infiltrate through all the files to
> find and fix the infected areas.  So sending Jesus or God's perfect will and divine justice with mercy
> into the world and then "killing and rebooting" the system with Christ embedded in man's level
> allows this process to take root and be used to cleanse out the bad and to restore the system to work properly.
> 
> that's a close analogy I can use to explain how it works globally
> 
> If Jesus had flaws and bugs, then this could not be used to clean out the system
> but would inject more bugs and flaws.
> 
> What the immaculate birth without sin represents is being born into this
> world with no previous "karma" or conditioning from parents generations,
> otherwise someone has loyalty or debts to one person more than others and is biased.
> 
> Jesus as perfect justice means having no bias toward or against any person
> so all persons are included equally. No human has that ability as we are all born
> under karmic or social conditioning and will favor our families or loved ones more
> than strangers we don't know. Jesus represents "equal justice for all people"
> universally on a scale that humans are too biased to establish. So this represents
> divine justice on a collective scale for all humanity combined over time and space.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> We're talking about god here. He could snap his fingers and fix everything and no one would be the wiser. Whats all the rigmarole for?  Why would god want us to follow his teachings then make the teachings convoluted and subject to interpretation? Sounds exactly like something man would write and use for social control.
Click to expand...

There is no good or evil without free will of humanity. You say God could just snap his fingers and make us "good" actors, making us essentially robots with no sovereignty of our own. But good and evil actions cannot exist without intent behind them.


----------



## ChrisL

Asclepias said:


> emilynghiem said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Asclepias said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> emilynghiem said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Asclepias said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Votto said:
> 
> 
> 
> Christianity does not teach to kill, specifically, Jesus did not teach to kill.
> 
> Jesus said that you have been told of old to kill your enemies, but I tell you to love them instead.
> 
> Jesus NEVER killed, NEVER told anyone to kill, and NEVER took a slave, a child wife, or conquer with the sword.
> 
> Over and over Jesus said that his kingdom is not of this world, even though apostates like Constantine, who did not even convert to the faith, hijacked Christianity and created a kingdom in the world in the name of Christ.
> 
> For the Christian, only Jesus was perfect.  Not even great men in the OT were perfect, like Moses.  Moses is pictures as a murderer, someone who stuttered so bad he had to have his brother speak for him, and sinned against God which prevented him from going into the Promised land.
> 
> Of course, Islam says otherwise,  They paint pretty much every prophet in the Bible as perfect, and then add that the scriptures have been "corrupted" which is why they are not perfect in the Bible.  It's the only way to give credence to the notion that Mo was perfect.  Only if men can be perfect can Mo be perfect.  Any half wit can attest otherwise.
> 
> The only reason Jesus was perfect was because he was God in the flesh.
> 
> 
> 
> Jesus didnt do all those things because he was a made up figure. He wasnt god in flesh. He was the son. The quote I gave you is in the NT. Deuteronomy
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Hi Asclepias
> The side of Jesus that secular gentiles tend to understand is Justice under natural laws which is the laws of man.
> The side of Jesus that the church refers to is Salvation by God's grace on a spiritual collective level.
> 
> He is both. Jesus represents the spirit of Universal Justice that fulfills
> BOTH the sacred laws of the Church under God and the natural laws of man under civil
> authority of Govt and the State. We are supposed to be joined in harmony
> with Peace and Justice for ALL by establishing universal truth, which is what God represents.
> 
> Just because you only relate to one side of Jesus as Justice on a local level
> doesn't mean the same Jesus can't represent Salvation on the broader scale.
> 
> Both, not either/or, but all of the above.
> 
> The Father and Son are one. *John 10:29–30  *My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. *I and the Father are one.*
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I find that hard to believe. Why would you go through all the trouble of having a child by immaculate conception, claim that child is your only begotten son, kill him and then claim it was you all along? Does that make sense to you?
> 
> “For God so loved the world,that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life."
> John 3:16
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Dear Asclepias
> This is all SYMBOLIC of the spiritual process by which Justice is made real after Injustice has destroyed humanity.
> 
> In order to repair the damage done, this perfect embodiment of Divine Justice with Mercy
> has been SENT into the world to bring forgiveness, healing and correction.
> 
> In order for this spiritual energy and process to PERMEATE through all the realms of humanity,
> past present and future, to correct and heal ALL wrongs over time and space,
> the sacrifice and redemption/resurrection of Christ represents the death and rebirth process
> to cleanse away and transform all that was injurious into that which is beneficial and good.
> 
> Asclepias if you have ever had to clean out viruses that completely invaded your computer
> you may have to DOWNLOAD a virus cleaning program into the system,
> then KILL it, and REBOOT before the program can infiltrate through all the files to
> find and fix the infected areas.  So sending Jesus or God's perfect will and divine justice with mercy
> into the world and then "killing and rebooting" the system with Christ embedded in man's level
> allows this process to take root and be used to cleanse out the bad and to restore the system to work properly.
> 
> that's a close analogy I can use to explain how it works globally
> 
> If Jesus had flaws and bugs, then this could not be used to clean out the system
> but would inject more bugs and flaws.
> 
> What the immaculate birth without sin represents is being born into this
> world with no previous "karma" or conditioning from parents generations,
> otherwise someone has loyalty or debts to one person more than others and is biased.
> 
> Jesus as perfect justice means having no bias toward or against any person
> so all persons are included equally. No human has that ability as we are all born
> under karmic or social conditioning and will favor our families or loved ones more
> than strangers we don't know. Jesus represents "equal justice for all people"
> universally on a scale that humans are too biased to establish. So this represents
> divine justice on a collective scale for all humanity combined over time and space.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> We're talking about god here. He could snap his fingers and fix everything and no one would be the wiser. Whats all the rigmarole for?  Why would god want us to follow his teachings then make the teachings convoluted and subject to interpretation? Sounds exactly like something man would write and use for social control.
Click to expand...


That is not what free will is about.  We have free will.  IMO, God does not interfere in our lives at all.  The path we choose is entirely our own.  That is the whole reason for the idea behind Heaven and Hell.


----------



## timslash

Not islam kills thousands of people. radical islam kills thousands of people and the radical islam is a "child" of our ancestors and slavery of people which were islamists in those years! If it were not slavery, today, radical Islam would not exist!


----------



## Delta4Embassy

If "Islam killed 2000 in Nigeria" I guess then it's fair to say Christianity killed several hundred thousand in Iraq even after the war by way of US sanctions huh.


----------



## Steinlight

Delta4Embassy said:


> If "Islam killed 2000 in Nigeria" I guess then it's fair to say Christianity killed several hundred thousand in Iraq even after the war by way of US sanctions huh.


No. Because the war wasn't waged in the name of Christianity. Whereas book haram is explicitly islamist. There is no equivalence. And your mindset of equivalence is dangerous and suicidal to the West


----------



## Osomir

Delta4Embassy said:


> No. Because the war wasn't waged in the name of Christianity. Whereas book haram is explicitly islamist. There is no equivalence. And your mindset of equivalence is dangerous and suicidal to the West



Boko Haram is about as Islamist as the Lords Resistance Army is Christianist.


----------



## Steinlight

Osomir said:


> Delta4Embassy said:
> 
> 
> 
> No. Because the war wasn't waged in the name of Christianity. Whereas book haram is explicitly islamist. There is no equivalence. And your mindset of equivalence is dangerous and suicidal to the West
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Boko Haram is about as Islamist as the Lords Resistance Army is Christianist.
Click to expand...

 Boko Haram is about as Islamist as you can get. And they aren't afraid to say so.


----------



## Steinlight

To suggest Boko Haram is not inspired by the Koran and it's violent passages. To suggest they aren't Muslim is naive, incorrect and incredibly dangerous. Even Muslim presidents like president al Sisi of Egypt admit there is a large strain of radicalism in the Islamic faith. But secular leftist westerners can't seem to grasp this.


----------



## Osomir

Steinlight said:


> Osomir said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Delta4Embassy said:
> 
> 
> 
> No. Because the war wasn't waged in the name of Christianity. Whereas book haram is explicitly islamist. There is no equivalence. And your mindset of equivalence is dangerous and suicidal to the West
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Boko Haram is about as Islamist as the Lords Resistance Army is Christianist.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Boko Haram is about as Islamist as you can get. And they aren't afraid to say so.
Click to expand...


That is a bit of a dishonest statement considering the fact that they have been rejected by all of Nigeria's traditional Islamic entities, and have even been denounced by Al Qaeda. They've also largely given up trying to adhere to any semblance of Islamist sharia sets and have largely dropped such calls from their internal PR efforts; one reason why they recruit primarily by forceful conscription now.

I would be curious as to why you see them as being "as Islamist as you can get" and what you are basing that on.


----------



## Osomir

Steinlight said:


> To suggest Boko Haram is not inspired by the Koran and it's violent passages. To suggest they aren't Muslim is naive, incorrect and incredibly dangerous. Even Muslim presidents like president al Sisi of Egypt admit there is a large strain of radicalism in the Islamic faith. But secular leftist westerners can't seem to grasp this.



Well you are facing a number of issues here in your attempted description; one of the primary ones of which is the fact that Boko Haram isn't a single group, and has never really ever been since violence started (even before that Shekau operated under a group called the Nigerian Taliban as a splinter faction). I'd be happy to discuss Boko Haram in more detail with you though; I worked on issues relating to them during my time in government.


----------



## ChrisL

Osomir said:


> Steinlight said:
> 
> 
> 
> To suggest Boko Haram is not inspired by the Koran and it's violent passages. To suggest they aren't Muslim is naive, incorrect and incredibly dangerous. Even Muslim presidents like president al Sisi of Egypt admit there is a large strain of radicalism in the Islamic faith. But secular leftist westerners can't seem to grasp this.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well you are facing a number of issues here in your attempted description; one of the primary ones of which is the fact that Boko Haram isn't a single group, and has never really ever been since violence started (even before that Shekau operated under a group called the Nigerian Taliban as a splinter faction). I'd be happy to discuss Boko Haram in more detail with you though; I worked on issues relating to them during my time in government.
Click to expand...


Well, I would like to discuss it more because they self-identify with Islam.  Whether or not YOU think they are is kind of irrelevant as far as THEY are concerned.  Why on earth do you think it matters at all how you personally classify them?  

You say you worked for the government.  Which government?  Because the United States Government considers them to be Islamic terrorist organization.  

Boko Haram - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

*Boko Haram* ("Western education is forbidden"), officially called *Jama'atu Ahlis Sunna Lidda'Awati Wal-Jihad*("People Committed to the Prophet's Teachings for Propagation and Jihad"), is a terrorist, militant and Islamistmovement based in northeast Nigeria with additional activities in Chad, Niger and Cameroon.[9] The group is led by Abubakar Shekau, and estimates of its strength vary between 500 and 9000. They have been linked to al-Qaeda and ISIS.[1][2][3] [14]

The group is designated as a terrorist organization by New Zealand, Australia, the United Kingdom, Canada, the United States and the United Nations Security Council, which declared it an al-Qaeda affiliate and imposed the al-Qaeda sanctions regime on the group.[9][15][16]

Boko Haram killed more than 5,000 civilians between July 2009 and June 2014, including at least 2,000 in the first half of 2014, in attacks occurring mainly in northeast, north-central and central Nigeria.[17][18][19] Corruption in the security services and human rights abuses committed by them have hampered efforts to counter the unrest.[20][21] Since 2009 Boko Haram have abducted more than 500 men,[22][23] women and children, including the kidnapping of 276 schoolgirls from Chibok in April 2014.[24] 650,000 people had fled the conflict zone by August 2014, an increase of 200,000 since May; by the end of the year 1.5 million had fled.[25][26]

After its founding in 2002, Boko Haram's increasing radicalisation led to a violent uprising in July 2009 in which its leader was executed.[27] Its unexpected resurgence, following a mass prison break in September 2010, was accompanied by increasingly sophisticated attacks, initially against soft targets, and progressing in 2011 to include suicide bombings on police buildings and the United Nations office in Abuja. The government's establishment of a state of emergency at the beginning of 2012, extended in the following year to cover the entire northeast of the country, resulted in a marked increase in both security force abuses and militant attacks. The Nigerian military proved ineffective in countering the insurgency, hampered by an entrenched culture of official corruption. Since mid-2014, the militants have been in control of swathes of territory in and around their home state of Borno, but have not captured the capital of Borno state, Maiduguri, where the group was originally based.

As of January 2015, Boko Haram controlled towns and villages across about 20,000 square miles, an area the size of Belgium, in the states of Borno and Yobe.[28]


----------



## Osomir

ChrisL said:


> Well, I would like to discuss it more because they self-identify with Islam.  Whether or not YOU think they are is kind of irrelevant as far as THEY are concerned.  Why on earth do you think it matters at all how you personally classify them?
> 
> You say you worked for the government.  Which government?  Because the United States Government considers them to be Islamic terrorist organization.



Boko Haram has not operated in a consistent manner since its inception. It started off as non-violent, became violent and then immediately fractured into multiple splinter groups (there are at least six of them). The faction that you are likely most familiar with: Shekau's faction, is the one that has been the most popularized within our general media, due largely to the Chibok incident, and to his use by other factional leaders as a public speaking head here and there to deflect attention away from their own cells / factions. Like most militant organizations its tactics, ideologies, and goals have shifted as realities change on the ground and as conflict drags out over longer periods of time. This is a pretty natural thing to happen within conflict in general.  Earlier in their existence they relied heavily on the preachings of their ideologue Mohammed Yusuf.  They were largely co-opted by northern political parties in order to mobilize the youth vote and influence towards one party or another in exchange for the political party's assurances that they would reform the way that shariah law existed in the northern provinces to mesh more closely with their ideological brand which stemmed from Saudi Arabian Wahhabi funds. Thus, Yusuf's brand of Islam was quite different from traditional Nigerian Islamic structures even if it was still at that time non-violent. Shekau always represented the more militant wing of the organziation, in fact he broke ranks with it for a while which is when if formed the Nigerian Taliban, but things didn't go so well for him and the group broke down and was reabsorbed by Yusuf.

After Yusuf was killed in the 2009 "uprising" / massacre the group split up, some of their leaders fled northward to Algeria and Mali, others made for Afghanistan or Somalia, some stayed underground. Since then and since the relative two year lul in which they were reorganizing into their different factions their evolution has twisted and turned and varried greatly. At first, they tried to justify their attacks through sharia law sets but their PR department had a hard time justifying many of their attacks, such as the bombing of say bars on shariah law since such law sets usually don't prescribe the death penalty for drinking alcohol (just as an example). then they faced huge criticism over their targeted attacks of Christians who are considered a protective class. Shekau responded to this with an essential collapse of Boko Haram's PR system and a shift from trying to recruit based on ideological principle to forced recruitment of conscripts from towns they raided coupled with targeted killing efforts against traditional Islamic power holders within Nigeria (Such as the Emir of Kano for example). Much like we saw with the LRA in Uganda and the DR Congo, Boko Haram's "main" body essentially devolved into an armed gang seeking protection money and enriching itself through plunder which has become the main focus of their attacks and away from the coupling with political parties and the lobbying for shariah law sets within Nigeria. they are really little more than a rampant criminal organization at this point. the GSPC (AQIM) went through a heavy phase of this too where they started relying on drug smuggling.


----------



## ChrisL

Osomir said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well, I would like to discuss it more because they self-identify with Islam.  Whether or not YOU think they are is kind of irrelevant as far as THEY are concerned.  Why on earth do you think it matters at all how you personally classify them?
> 
> You say you worked for the government.  Which government?  Because the United States Government considers them to be Islamic terrorist organization.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Boko Haram has not operated in a consistent manner since its inception. It started off as non-violent, became violent and then immediately fractured into multiple splinter groups (there are at least six of them). The faction that you are likely most familiar with: Shekau's faction, is the one that has been the most popularized within our general media, due largely to the Chibok incident, and to his use by other factional leaders as a public speaking head here and there to deflect attention away from their own cells / factions. Like most militant organizations its tactics, ideologies, and goals have shifted as realities change on the ground and as conflict drags out over longer periods of time. This is a pretty natural thing to happen within conflict in general.  Earlier in their existence they relied heavily on the preachings of their ideologue Mohammed Yusuf.  They were largely co-opted by northern political parties in order to mobilize the youth vote and influence towards one party or another in exchange for the political party's assurances that they would reform the way that shariah law existed in the northern provinces to mesh more closely with their ideological brand which stemmed from Saudi Arabian Wahhabi funds. Thus, Yusuf's brand of Islam was quite different from traditional Nigerian Islamic structures even if it was still at that time non-violent. Shekau always represented the more militant wing of the organziation, in fact he broke ranks with it for a while which is when if formed the Nigerian Taliban, but things didn't go so well for him and the group broke down and was reabsorbed by Yusuf.
> 
> After Yusuf was killed in the 2009 "uprising" / massacre the group split up, some of their leaders fled northward to Algeria and Mali, others made for Afghanistan or Somalia, some stayed underground. Since then and since the relative two year lul in which they were reorganizing into their different factions their evolution has twisted and turned and varried greatly. At first, they tried to justify their attacks through sharia law sets but their PR department had a hard time justifying many of their attacks, such as the bombing of say bars on shariah law since such law sets usually don't prescribe the death penalty for drinking alcohol (just as an example). then they faced huge criticism over their targeted attacks of Christians who are considered a protective class. Shekau responded to this with an essential collapse of Boko Haram's PR system and a shift from trying to recruit based on ideological principle to forced recruitment of conscripts from towns they raided coupled with targeted killing efforts against traditional Islamic power holders within Nigeria (Such as the Emir of Kano for example). Much like we saw with the LRA in Uganda and the DR Congo, Boko Haram's "main" body essentially devolved into an armed gang seeking protection money and enriching itself through plunder which has become the main focus of their attacks and away from the coupling with political parties and the lobbying for shariah law sets within Nigeria. they are really little more than a rampant criminal organization at this point. the GSPC (AQIM) went through a heavy phase of this too where they started relying on drug smuggling.
Click to expand...


That's fascinating stuff, but still, I believe the Wahhabis are a form of Islam too, similar to Sunnis in Iraq, I've heard.  not really too sure what the big difference is though, because it seems like all of these groups want to fight about what Islam actually means.  A lot of them believe in Sharia and they will tell you that this is how their prophet lived, and I think that is very much true.  The Prophet Mohammed was also not a peaceful man from everything I've read about him.  He was certainly not like Jesus Christ, that's for sure.


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## Osomir

ChrisL said:


> That's fascinating stuff, but still, I believe the Wahhabis are a form of Islam too, similar to Sunnis in Iraq, I've heard.  not really too sure what the big difference is though, because it seems like all of these groups want to fight about what Islam actually means.  A lot of them believe in Sharia and they will tell you that this is how their prophet lived, and I think that is very much true.  The Prophet Mohammed was also not a peaceful man from everything I've read about him.  He was certainly not like Jesus Christ, that's for sure.



A couple of things to note here:

1.) Yusuf (Boko Haram's ideologue) was not really the kind of violent man that Shekau currently is. The idea is not that Shekau is currently following Wahhabi Islam, but rather it is that he and his faction have completely evolved away from a reliance on ideology and have moved into forceful recruitment and banditry. they have been condemned by all major internal Nigerian Islamic groupings, have had to resort to assassinating Nigerian sheiks for disagreeing with them, are currently fighting other Muslims who have risen up to combat them in the form of the Civilian Joint Task Force (CJTF), and have even been condemned by Al Qaeda (more specifically by AQIM, which is pretty radical in and of itself). they had to abandon their PR wing largely because they simply CAN'T rconciled their current actions with anything even remotely close to any type of shariah law set even by any stretch of the imagination (and they certainly tried).

2.) Sharia law varies greatly across region and school of thought. Just like civil law sets do. Just as a side note, there has never been one single unified code of shariah law. It is also worth noting that many (if not most) of Boko Haram's victims are themselves Muslim.


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## ChrisL

Osomir said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> That's fascinating stuff, but still, I believe the Wahhabis are a form of Islam too, similar to Sunnis in Iraq, I've heard.  not really too sure what the big difference is though, because it seems like all of these groups want to fight about what Islam actually means.  A lot of them believe in Sharia and they will tell you that this is how their prophet lived, and I think that is very much true.  The Prophet Mohammed was also not a peaceful man from everything I've read about him.  He was certainly not like Jesus Christ, that's for sure.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A couple of things to note here:
> 
> 1.) Yusuf (Boko Haram's ideologue) was not really the kind of violent man that Shekau currently is. The idea is not that Shekau is currently following Wahhabi Islam, but rather it is that he and his faction have completely evolved away from a reliance on ideology and have moved into forceful recruitment and banditry. they have been condemned by all major internal Nigerian Islamic groupings, have had to resort to assassinating Nigerian sheiks for disagreeing with them, are currently fighting other Muslims who have risen up to combat them in the form of the Civilian Joint Task Force (CJTF), and have even been condemned by Al Qaeda (more specifically by AQIM, which is pretty radical in and of itself). they had to abandon their PR wing largely because they simply CAN'T rconciled their current actions with anything even remotely close to any type of shariah law set even by any stretch of the imagination (and they certainly tried).
> 
> 2.) Sharia law varies greatly across region and school of thought. Just like civil law sets do. Just as a side note, there has never been one single unified code of shariah law. It is also worth noting that many (if not most) of Boko Haram's victims are themselves Muslim.
Click to expand...


Oh yes, I'm aware of the statements made in #2.  I agree, but there are countries, tribes, etc. who practice it as a way of life, and they even have courts and governments based upon Sharia.  

In regards to your #1 statements, IOW, they have moved away from the religious ideology and are now just being thugs?  Okay, I get that and don't doubt it, but if they gain control, they do and will set up Sharia law systems.  I don't really consider the Taliban or any of those other groups to be TOO much different, as far as thuggery goes.


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## Osomir

ChrisL said:


> Oh yes, I'm aware of the statements made in #2.  I agree, but there are countries, tribes, etc. who practice it as a way of life, and they even have courts and governments based upon Sharia.
> 
> In regards to your #1 statements, IOW, they have moved away from the religious ideology and are now just being thugs?  Okay, I get that and don't doubt it, but if they gain control, they do and will set up Sharia law systems.  I don't really consider the Taliban or any of those other groups to be TOO much different, as far as thuggery goes.



Unlike the Taliban, I don't really see true governance as a goal of theirs. They don't have, nor are they likely to win the support of local populations; one reason why fear through massacres and brutality is now one of their main tactics. The Taliban always had a more solid ideological core and really drew a lot of its recruits from religious schools in Pakistan in a way that Boko Haram has been unable to do so. More importantly, Boko Haram (due in part to their brutality) hasn't been able to forge the strong links to other Islamist groups that the Taliban depended on (the Haqqani Network). I think we definitely did see ideological drift in the Taliban, as we tend to see in all long term militant organizations, but not to this extent save for more recently (particularly Pakistan's TTP faction). Some factions do have those links, particularly to AQIM, but those aren't the ones under Shekau.


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## ChrisL

Osomir said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> Oh yes, I'm aware of the statements made in #2.  I agree, but there are countries, tribes, etc. who practice it as a way of life, and they even have courts and governments based upon Sharia.
> 
> In regards to your #1 statements, IOW, they have moved away from the religious ideology and are now just being thugs?  Okay, I get that and don't doubt it, but if they gain control, they do and will set up Sharia law systems.  I don't really consider the Taliban or any of those other groups to be TOO much different, as far as thuggery goes.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unlike the Taliban, I don't really see true governance as a goal of theirs. They don't have, nor are they likely to win the support of local populations; one reason why fear through massacres and brutality is now one of their main tactics. The Taliban always had a more solid ideological core and really drew a lot of its recruits from religious schools in Pakistan in a way that Boko Haram has been unable to do so. More importantly, Boko Haram (due in part to their brutality) hasn't been able to forge the strong links to other Islamist groups that the Taliban depended on (the Haqqani Network). I think we definitely did see ideological drift in the Taliban, as we tend to see in all long term militant organizations, but not to this extent save for more recently (particularly Pakistan's TTP faction). Some factions do have those links, particularly to AQIM, but those aren't the ones under Shekau.
Click to expand...


Well, I must admit that I'm not too knowledgeable about the different factions when it comes to some of these 3rd world countries and their religious minorities/majorities, but it seems to me that all of these groups tend to employ Sharia as a way to control the people.  Perhaps the Taliban is more in control, but I've heard of some pretty brutal acts by them as well.  

Let's just put it this way, I would not want ANY of them to be in control of me.  Lol.


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## Book of Jeremiah

Osomir said:


> Delta4Embassy said:
> 
> 
> 
> No. Because the war wasn't waged in the name of Christianity. Whereas book haram is explicitly islamist. There is no equivalence. And your mindset of equivalence is dangerous and suicidal to the West
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Boko Haram is about as Islamist as the Lords Resistance Army is Christianist.
Click to expand...


Nonsense.  Boko Haram is following Mohammad's teachings on Islam.  They could be the poster boys for it.


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## Book of Jeremiah

Osomir said:


> Steinlight said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Osomir said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Delta4Embassy said:
> 
> 
> 
> No. Because the war wasn't waged in the name of Christianity. Whereas book haram is explicitly islamist. There is no equivalence. And your mindset of equivalence is dangerous and suicidal to the West
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Boko Haram is about as Islamist as the Lords Resistance Army is Christianist.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Boko Haram is about as Islamist as you can get. And they aren't afraid to say so.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> That is a bit of a dishonest statement considering the fact that they have been rejected by all of Nigeria's traditional Islamic entities, and have even been denounced by Al Qaeda. They've also largely given up trying to adhere to any semblance of Islamist sharia sets and have largely dropped such calls from their internal PR efforts; one reason why they recruit primarily by forceful conscription now.
> 
> I would be curious as to why you see them as being "as Islamist as you can get" and what you are basing that on.
Click to expand...


Try the Qu'ran.  There are 109 murder verses in there that they can use to justify their actions.   Add to this the hadith collection of Bukhari, second to the Qur'an and full of violence and allowances for the murder of women, children, civilians, whoever they feel like murdering.  I do not care what your job was - your seriously misinformed on Boko Haram when it comes to their following Islam.  They do.  To the "T".


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## Book of Jeremiah

This is the exact same thing Mohammad did.  Abduction, rape, sex slaves, looting, "selling slaves", you name it.  This is Islam.  The real Islam.  Wake up, America.


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## C_Clayton_Jones

"Islam kills 2000 in Nigeria"

Your unwarranted fear and hatred of Islam only exhibits how ignorant and ridiculous you are.


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## ChrisL

Jeremiah said:


> Osomir said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Steinlight said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Osomir said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Delta4Embassy said:
> 
> 
> 
> No. Because the war wasn't waged in the name of Christianity. Whereas book haram is explicitly islamist. There is no equivalence. And your mindset of equivalence is dangerous and suicidal to the West
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Boko Haram is about as Islamist as the Lords Resistance Army is Christianist.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Boko Haram is about as Islamist as you can get. And they aren't afraid to say so.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> That is a bit of a dishonest statement considering the fact that they have been rejected by all of Nigeria's traditional Islamic entities, and have even been denounced by Al Qaeda. They've also largely given up trying to adhere to any semblance of Islamist sharia sets and have largely dropped such calls from their internal PR efforts; one reason why they recruit primarily by forceful conscription now.
> 
> I would be curious as to why you see them as being "as Islamist as you can get" and what you are basing that on.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Try the Qu'ran.  There are 109 murder verses in there that they can use to justify their actions.   Add to this the hadith collection of Bukhari, second to the Qur'an and full of violence and allowances for the murder of women, children, civilians, whoever they feel like murdering.  I do not care what your job was - your seriously misinformed on Boko Haram when it comes to their following Islam.  They do.  To the "T".
Click to expand...


That is what I tend to believe too, Jeri, but I'm not expert on the matter.    I also believe that they are following the REAL Islam.  Now, some might say the same about Christianity, as there are also some quite violent verses and stories in the Bible as well.  However, Islam doesn't have a Jesus Christ to kind of balance things out.  They have Muhammed, who was a warrior and a brutal fighter.  He was not a peaceful man from everything I have read and heard about.


----------



## ChrisL

C_Clayton_Jones said:


> "Islam kills 2000 in Nigeria"
> 
> Your unwarranted fear and hatred of Islam only exhibits how ignorant and ridiculous you are.



Unwarranted?  WTF is WRONG with you people?  People throughout the world have a DAMN good reason for not trusting this ideology, and I am sick of you liberals pretending as if it is "unwarranted."  It is NOT unwarranted.


----------



## Osomir

Jeremiah said:


> Osomir said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Delta4Embassy said:
> 
> 
> 
> No. Because the war wasn't waged in the name of Christianity. Whereas book haram is explicitly islamist. There is no equivalence. And your mindset of equivalence is dangerous and suicidal to the West
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Boko Haram is about as Islamist as the Lords Resistance Army is Christianist.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Nonsense.  Boko Haram is following Mohammad's teachings on Islam.  They could be the poster boys for it.
Click to expand...


Not very compelling supporting evidence you have there.


----------



## Osomir

ChrisL said:


> That is what I tend to believe too, Jeri, but I'm not expert on the matter.    I also believe that they are following the REAL Islam.



I find this to be a rather nonplussing statement given that:

1.) They haven't even practiced a consistent governance style throughout the organization's life. How can it be the "real form of Islam" if it keeps changing dramatically on any given day?

2.) Not even Al Qaeda, and even the more "radical wings of it like the GSPC are willing to call what Boko Haram does Islamic, let alone ANY school of thought within Islam outside of Boko Haram. Even ISIL has ignored their calls for partnership and support. So I am a little curious about what would make you believe ( or I suppose Jeremiah) that this is the ONE "real" expression of Islam in the world.

3.) Boko Haram hasn't even been able to defend their own actions through even the furthest twists and most perverse and cherry picked verses from any Islamic texts / hadith collections. It's why their PR department collapsed and stopped even trying to do so. So even Boko Haram has essentially given in to the fact that their actions aren't Islamic.


----------



## C_Clayton_Jones

Jeremiah said:


> Osomir said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Delta4Embassy said:
> 
> 
> 
> No. Because the war wasn't waged in the name of Christianity. Whereas book haram is explicitly islamist. There is no equivalence. And your mindset of equivalence is dangerous and suicidal to the West
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Boko Haram is about as Islamist as the Lords Resistance Army is Christianist.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Nonsense.  Boko Haram is following Mohammad's teachings on Islam.  They could be the poster boys for it.
Click to expand...

No, this is nonsense.

Boko Haram is in no way representative of Islam and all Muslims.

Just as your ignorance and unwarranted fear and hatred of Islam is not representative of all Christians.


----------



## ChrisL

Osomir said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> That is what I tend to believe too, Jeri, but I'm not expert on the matter.    I also believe that they are following the REAL Islam.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I find this to be a rather nonplussing statement given that:
> 
> 1.) They haven't even practiced a consistent governance style throughout the organization's life. How can it be the "real form of Islam" if it keeps changing dramatically on any given day?
> 
> 2.) Not even Al Qaeda, and even the more "radical wings of it like the GSPC are willing to call what Boko Haram does Islamic, let alone ANY school of thought within Islam outside of Boko Haram. Even ISIL has ignored their calls for partnership and support. So I am a little curious about what would make you believe ( or I suppose Jeremiah) that this is the ONE "real" expression of Islam in the world.
> 
> 3.) Boko Haram hasn't even been able to defend their own actions through even the furthest twists and most perverse and cherry picked verses from any Islamic texts / hadith collections. It's why their PR department collapsed and stopped even trying to do so. So even Boko Haram has essentially given in to the fact that their actions aren't Islamic.
Click to expand...


How are they different?  The Taliban and Al Quada do the same exact things!!!  I suppose you are going to tell us that ISIS is not Islamic either?   They all consider themselves a part of Islam.  Why do you think it matters at ALL how you are classifying them?  They believe in all the basics of Islam.  They believe in the Quran.  They call themselves Islam.  Now . . . here is YOU, an anonymous internet poster saying that they don't know what they're talking about, and you don't believe they are representative of Islam?


----------



## ChrisL

C_Clayton_Jones said:


> Jeremiah said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Osomir said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Delta4Embassy said:
> 
> 
> 
> No. Because the war wasn't waged in the name of Christianity. Whereas book haram is explicitly islamist. There is no equivalence. And your mindset of equivalence is dangerous and suicidal to the West
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Boko Haram is about as Islamist as the Lords Resistance Army is Christianist.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Nonsense.  Boko Haram is following Mohammad's teachings on Islam.  They could be the poster boys for it.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> No, this is nonsense.
> 
> Boko Haram is in no way representative of Islam and all Muslims.
> 
> Just as your ignorance and unwarranted fear and hatred of Islam is not representative of all Christians.
Click to expand...


You just keep repeating this to yourself.  They are representative of Islam.  They believe in the Quran and they are following their interpretation of it.  How is Boko Haram different from any of the other MANY extremist groups?  

Why do you want people to ignore this threat to our security and safety?  Because you are afraid to offend Muslims?  Are you afraid of them?


----------

