# Eastern Philosophy



## yiostheoy

Whereas Western Philosophy was born in ancient Greece in the 8th Century BCE with Hesiod and his doctrine of "moderation in all things", Eastern Philosophy was born in ancient China in the 4th Century BCE with Laozi and his Tao Te Ching for which the fundamental principles included the 3 treasures of "moderation, compassion, and humility".

Wiki has a great summary:

Taoism - Wikipedia


----------



## yiostheoy

Has anyone here studied Eastern Philosophy?

Michael Wood in his latest production on the Origin Of China which PBS is showing now briefly mentions it.

Confucianism modified Taoism in the 8th Century A.D. but Taoism largely remained the same, only with more civic responsibilities spelled out.


----------



## Pogo

yiostheoy said:


> Has anyone here studied Eastern Philosophy?
> 
> Michael Wood in his latest production on the Origin Of China which PBS is showing now briefly mentions it.
> 
> Confucianism modified Taoism in the 8th Century A.D. but Taoism largely remained the same, only with more civic responsibilities spelled out.



I find profound wisdom in the Tao.  Profound.

Alan Watts has many good lectures that can be found on YouTube.


----------



## yiostheoy

Pogo said:


> yiostheoy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Has anyone here studied Eastern Philosophy?
> 
> Michael Wood in his latest production on the Origin Of China which PBS is showing now briefly mentions it.
> 
> Confucianism modified Taoism in the 8th Century A.D. but Taoism largely remained the same, only with more civic responsibilities spelled out.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I find profound wisdom in the Tao.  Profound.
> 
> Alan Watts has many good lectures that can be found on YouTube.
Click to expand...

It seems quite coincidental that both Chinese and Greek ancient Philosophy are so similar in terms or ethics and values.


----------



## fncceo

I never understood the philosophy of the East ...


----------



## there4eyeM

The emphasis of Eastern thought is on the 'oneness' of the universe. Concentrating on the pieces, as in Western concepts, achieves some limited goals, but translates finally into confusion and dispersion.


----------



## Pogo

there4eyeM said:


> The emphasis of Eastern thought is on the 'oneness' of the universe. Concentrating on the pieces, as in Western concepts, achieves some limited goals, but translates finally into confusion and dispersion.



A characterization very much like a comparison of right and left brain hemispheres, respectively.

We in the latter seem to lean to the Yang and see these as competitors, rather than complements.


----------



## task0778

There are quite a number of eastern philosophies, many of which pre-date Taoism.   All of which are worth some study, as are some so-called ancient western philosophies too.   Paganism for example.


----------



## Pogo

task0778 said:


> There are quite a number of eastern philosophies, many of which pre-date Taoism.   All of which are worth some study, as are some so-called ancient western philosophies too.   Paganism for example.



"Paganism" isn't a philosophy.  It's just a catch-all term for basic unstructured traditions.  It literally means "country dweller".  Something like "bumpkin" or "hick", i.e. a person who hasn't yet savored the enlightenment that is ass-umed by the user of the term.  It's an exercise in elitism, or if you like, an exercise of arrogance..

"Heathen" is the same thing, only more specific in what kind of country the degraded person inhabits based on its natural flora.

The "paganistic", i.e. ancient traditional motifs of Europe, which are probably the ones we know best and to which the term is generally applied, had a much more wholistic and animisitc world view, and as such yes are worthy of deeper examination.

Arguably these were chased away, buried and sent to the despised class of "paganism" with the advent of monotheism and the concept of a male god, a concept which, if we think about it, is absurd.


----------



## yiostheoy

there4eyeM said:


> The emphasis of Eastern thought is on the 'oneness' of the universe. Concentrating on the pieces, as in Western concepts, achieves some limited goals, but translates finally into confusion and dispersion.


A major difference between Eastern and Western philosophies is this notion of unity in the East versus individualism in the West.

I tend to attribute this to the population situation in the East -- which has always been very crowded throughout all history -- versus in the West where there has always been more room for the family farm with extensive fields and more space.

The geography of Asia has always been compressive whereas Europe was an empty place that got moved into by waves of migrants from the Middle East and from Eastern Europe moving further west.


----------



## task0778

Pogo said:


> task0778 said:
> 
> 
> 
> There are quite a number of eastern philosophies, many of which pre-date Taoism.   All of which are worth some study, as are some so-called ancient western philosophies too.   Paganism for example.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "Paganism" isn't a philosophy.  It's just a catch-all term for basic unstructured traditions.  It literally means "country dweller".  Something like "bumpkin" or "hick", i.e. a person who hasn't yet savored the enlightenment that is ass-umed by the user of the term.  It's an exercise in elitism, or if you like, an exercise of arrogance..
> 
> "Heathen" is the same thing, only more specific in what kind of country the degraded person inhabits based on its natural flora.
> 
> The "paganistic", i.e. ancient traditional motifs of Europe, which are probably the ones we know best and to which the term is generally applied, had a much more wholistic and animisitc world view, and as such yes are worthy of deeper examination.
> 
> Arguably these were chased away, buried and sent to the despised class of "paganism" with the advent of monotheism and the concept of a male god, a concept which, if we think about it, is absurd.
Click to expand...


Well now.   Maybe paganism could be considered a form of metaphysical philosophy if nothing else, which could include philosophies of religion and human nature and maybe nature itself.  And I don't think many philosophies have much of a structure to them, and who is to say what enlightenment means or how you achieve it.   And also the concept of monotheism headed by a male God may seem absurd to you but I'm pretty sure there are a few billion other people who would not agree.   

I do think it wouldn't be a bad idea for anyone to give some study to all forms and schools of philosophy.   Funny thing, I recently bought a book on Tao Te Ching and am working my way through it.   Gotta be honest, some of it escapes me;  maybe I just ain't that bright.


----------



## Pogo

yiostheoy said:


> there4eyeM said:
> 
> 
> 
> The emphasis of Eastern thought is on the 'oneness' of the universe. Concentrating on the pieces, as in Western concepts, achieves some limited goals, but translates finally into confusion and dispersion.
> 
> 
> 
> A major difference between Eastern and Western philosophies is this notion of unity in the East versus individualism in the West.
> 
> I tend to attribute this to the population situation in the East -- which has always been very crowded throughout all history -- versus in the West where there has always been more room for the family farm with extensive fields and more space.
> 
> The geography of Asia has always been compressive whereas Europe was an empty place that got moved into by waves of migrants from the Middle East and from Eastern Europe moving further west.
Click to expand...


Of course it's mathematically impossible for anywhere to have been "_always_ crowded".  But perhaps you're hinting at different philosophies of who "owns" a territory....

On the other hand if there was always room in Europe, where are the Picts today?  And if expanding into "more space" was so available, why the great influx to the Americas?  And given that migration where are the Arawaks?


----------



## Pogo

task0778 said:


> Well now. Maybe paganism could be considered a form of metaphysical philosophy if nothing else, which could include philosophies of religion and human nature and maybe nature itself. And I don't think many philosophies have much of a structure to them, and who is to say what enlightenment means or how you achieve it. And also the concept of monotheism headed by a male God may seem absurd to you but I'm pretty sure there are a few billion other people who would not agree.



That's just simple logic.  When have you ever seen a male give birth?  Exactly.

Given a claim of belief in a single (male) "god" I always ask, where is his consort -- the female which makes that god "male"?  Without "female", "male" is an impossibility.

The male has one purpose in biology, and that is to impregnate the female.  And by doing so improve the gene selection through choice of co-parent.  Males, by definition, cannot create life.  Ergo --- absurd.

Of course this leads us to the truth that it's not necessary for "god" to have a gender at all.  And yet, monotheism insists not only is there a gender but that gender is one that by definition cannot exist sui generis.  This then invites the question of why _any_ gender insistence --- which is in no way necessary --- got pushed at all.  Aye, there's the rub.




task0778 said:


> I do think it wouldn't be a bad idea for anyone to give some study to all forms and schools of philosophy. Funny thing, I recently bought a book on Tao Te Ching and am working my way through it. Gotta be honest, some of it escapes me; maybe I just ain't that bright.



I can readily recommend the aforementioned Alan Watts lectures via YouTube or whatever medium is convenient.

One thing about the Tao --- if you can reduce it to a verbal definition........... you haven't reduced it to a verbal definition.  The scope of language is too limited to do that.  It kind of has to be _grokked_.  Or to paraphrase Watts, that which _explains _the Tao ------ is _not _the Tao.


----------



## yiostheoy

Pogo said:


> ... if there was always room in Europe, where are the Picts today?  And if expanding into "more space" was so available, why the great influx to the Americas?  And given that migration where are the Arawaks?


In the 4th Century BCE when the Chinese were inventing Taoism, China was already crowded.

In the 8th Century BCE when the Greeks were inventing Western Philosophy, Europe was mostly empty forests.

It is just a timing issue.

The whole world is crowded now except for parts of the American West, Canada, and Siberia.


----------



## peach174

Pogo said:


> yiostheoy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Has anyone here studied Eastern Philosophy?
> 
> Michael Wood in his latest production on the Origin Of China which PBS is showing now briefly mentions it.
> 
> Confucianism modified Taoism in the 8th Century A.D. but Taoism largely remained the same, only with more civic responsibilities spelled out.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I find profound wisdom in the Tao.  Profound.
> 
> Alan Watts has many good lectures that can be found on YouTube.
Click to expand...



My favorite one of many is;
Those who know do not speak
Those who speak do not know. 

Or this one
Whatever is flexible & flowing
Will tend to grow
Whatever is rigid & blocked will wither & die


----------



## Unkotare

This thread makes me sad. 


And the whole world is not crowded now.


----------



## SobieskiSavedEurope

yiostheoy said:


> there4eyeM said:
> 
> 
> 
> The emphasis of Eastern thought is on the 'oneness' of the universe. Concentrating on the pieces, as in Western concepts, achieves some limited goals, but translates finally into confusion and dispersion.
> 
> 
> 
> A major difference between Eastern and Western philosophies is this notion of unity in the East versus individualism in the West.
> 
> I tend to attribute this to the population situation in the East -- which has always been very crowded throughout all history -- versus in the West where there has always been more room for the family farm with extensive fields and more space.
> 
> The geography of Asia has always been compressive whereas Europe was an empty place that got moved into by waves of migrants from the Middle East and from Eastern Europe moving further west.
Click to expand...


This would appear to be genetic, Britain's extremely individualistic, and they're crowded too.


----------



## SobieskiSavedEurope

yiostheoy said:


> there4eyeM said:
> 
> 
> 
> The emphasis of Eastern thought is on the 'oneness' of the universe. Concentrating on the pieces, as in Western concepts, achieves some limited goals, but translates finally into confusion and dispersion.
> 
> 
> 
> A major difference between Eastern and Western philosophies is this notion of unity in the East versus individualism in the West.
> 
> I tend to attribute this to the population situation in the East -- which has always been very crowded throughout all history -- versus in the West where there has always been more room for the family farm with extensive fields and more space.
> 
> The geography of Asia has always been compressive whereas Europe was an empty place that got moved into by waves of migrants from the Middle East and from Eastern Europe moving further west.
Click to expand...


Native Americans were more remotely isolated, and they're collectivists.

Look at Guatemala a heavily collectivist nation, with a strong Native American background.


----------



## Pogo

SobieskiSavedEurope said:


> yiostheoy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> there4eyeM said:
> 
> 
> 
> The emphasis of Eastern thought is on the 'oneness' of the universe. Concentrating on the pieces, as in Western concepts, achieves some limited goals, but translates finally into confusion and dispersion.
> 
> 
> 
> A major difference between Eastern and Western philosophies is this notion of unity in the East versus individualism in the West.
> 
> I tend to attribute this to the population situation in the East -- which has always been very crowded throughout all history -- versus in the West where there has always been more room for the family farm with extensive fields and more space.
> 
> The geography of Asia has always been compressive whereas Europe was an empty place that got moved into by waves of migrants from the Middle East and from Eastern Europe moving further west.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Native Americans were more remotely isolated, and they're collectivists.
> 
> Look at Guatemala a heavily collectivist nation, with a strong Native American background.
Click to expand...


Source for this map please?  What's sort of study is it derived  from?


----------



## Pogo

Going back to this...



yiostheoy said:


> A major difference between Eastern and Western philosophies is this notion of unity in the East versus individualism in the West.
> 
> I tend to attribute this to the population situation in the East -- which has always been very crowded throughout all history -- versus in the West where there has always been more room for the family farm with extensive fields and more space.



There's an easy case to be made to the contrary.  Check out the handy-dandy map just above and compare the sizes of Europe and Asia.  Doesn't take land area stats to see which has WAY more room for the family farm with extensive fields and more space, and it's not Europe.

The theory holds however if applied to the 'discovery' of the Americas (and the similar case of Australia), at the time seen as the gift from God to the White Man to just ramble in and grab oneself an estate, the inconvenience of already-present populations being dismissed as "savages".  A philosophy of "I got mine and screw y'all" (Individualism) is virtually inevitable given that dynamic.

Looking back to Europe again, by contrast given the consistent 'complaints' of Euro-socialism regularly rendered on this board as a model We the Individuals* would rather avoid, it would seem that still-more-crowded-than-here continent.

*deliberately expressed as poignant contrast to "We the People" for those who remember that




yiostheoy said:


> The geography of Asia has always been compressive whereas Europe was an empty place that got moved into by waves of migrants from the Middle East and from Eastern Europe moving further west.



These migrations would have been way before philosophies leaning to "Individual" or "collective" would have taken shape.  And again, if Europe was so "empty" where are the Picts?  What happened to the Celts' living space?  Or the Basques?

Here's a far more likely impetus for one swath of peoples going the Individualist route while Asia, Native America and Africa were going the other way --- *Monotheism*.  The concept that creation, and by extension any kind of value, is embedded in a single (and very much separate) _individual_.  The Judeo-Christian mindset, which is very much coincident with cultures that have taken the Individualist route.


----------



## Unkotare

Brindley, E.._Individualism in Early China: Human Agency and the Self in Thought and Politics._ Honolulu: University of Hawai'i Press, 2010.


----------

