# Spain



## Samson

In Mid June. arriving on Thursday, 10 AM Madrid Intl Airport NE of the city.

The Main attraction, of course will be the Bullfight. I have tickets for Sunday.

Then fly out Wednesday.

So I have Friday, Saturday, Monday, and Tuesday without plans.

What to do?

Here's what I'm considering: Getting a Museum pass and spending Friday in Madrid, Saturday in Toledo, and Monday in Avila and Segovia, then Tuesday tour more in Madrid.

Whatchya think?

My hotel will be in Alcorcon, a suburb in SW Madrid


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## Samson




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## Samson




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## Samson




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## sfcalifornia

Samson said:


> In Mid June. arriving on Thursday, 10 AM Madrid Intl Airport NE of the city.
> 
> The Main attraction, of course will be the Bullfight. I have tickets for Sunday.
> 
> Then fly out Wednesday.
> 
> So I have Friday, Saturday, Monday, and Tuesday without plans.
> 
> What to do?
> 
> Here's what I'm considering: Getting a Museum pass and spending Friday in Madrid, Saturday in Toledo, and Monday in Avila and Segovia, then Tuesday tour more in Madrid.
> 
> Whatchya think?
> 
> My hotel will be in Alcorcon, a suburb in SW Madrid


I liked Madrid so much more than Barcelona!  I think your plan is a good one.  The towns you are going to are close enough to make them all day trips and they are easily accessible by train if that is how you plan on traveling as opposed to a car.  Train and car are both very easy in Spain.

Madrid a a grand city and the architecture is beautiful.  My spanish is pretty crappy but I had to rely on it much more than in Barcelona where everyone speaks English.  I think that is why I liked Madrid more overall; it just seemed to be more authentic Spain in my humble opinion. Try to go not only to the Museo Nacional del Prado, which is stunning, but also go to the palace.

I'm wondering why your hotel is in Alcorcon though and not in Centro?  Is there easy public transit to get you into the city?  I looked on the map and it seems a little far out of town.


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## Samson

sfcalifornia said:


> Samson said:
> 
> 
> 
> In Mid June. arriving on Thursday, 10 AM Madrid Intl Airport NE of the city.
> 
> The Main attraction, of course will be the Bullfight. I have tickets for Sunday.
> 
> Then fly out Wednesday.
> 
> So I have Friday, Saturday, Monday, and Tuesday without plans.
> 
> What to do?
> 
> Here's what I'm considering: Getting a Museum pass and spending Friday in Madrid, Saturday in Toledo, and Monday in Avila and Segovia, then Tuesday tour more in Madrid.
> 
> Whatchya think?
> 
> My hotel will be in Alcorcon, a suburb in SW Madrid
> 
> 
> 
> I liked Madrid so much more than Barcelona!  I think your plan is a good one.  The towns you are going to are close enough to make them all day trips and they are easily accessible by train if that is how you plan on traveling as opposed to a car.  Train and car are both very easy in Spain.
> 
> Madrid a a grand city and the architecture is beautiful.  My spanish is pretty crappy but I had to rely on it much more than in Barcelona where everyone speaks English.  I think that is why I liked Madrid more overall; it just seemed to be more authentic Spain in my humble opinion. Try to go not only to the Museo Nacional del Prado, which is stunning, but also go to the palace.
> 
> I'm wondering why your hotel is in Alcorcon though and not in Centro?  Is there easy public transit to get you into the city?  I looked on the map and it seems a little far out of town.
Click to expand...


1. Hotel is free
2. 300 m from Central Station
3. El Cento Hotels are expensive

I plan to use as much rail as possible, but may take taxi return to airport as I must traverse the city from SW to NE.


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## Unkotare

How's your Spanish?


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## sfcalifornia

Samson said:


> sfcalifornia said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Samson said:
> 
> 
> 
> In Mid June. arriving on Thursday, 10 AM Madrid Intl Airport NE of the city.
> 
> The Main attraction, of course will be the Bullfight. I have tickets for Sunday.
> 
> Then fly out Wednesday.
> 
> So I have Friday, Saturday, Monday, and Tuesday without plans.
> 
> What to do?
> 
> Here's what I'm considering: Getting a Museum pass and spending Friday in Madrid, Saturday in Toledo, and Monday in Avila and Segovia, then Tuesday tour more in Madrid.
> 
> Whatchya think?
> 
> My hotel will be in Alcorcon, a suburb in SW Madrid
> 
> 
> 
> I liked Madrid so much more than Barcelona!  I think your plan is a good one.  The towns you are going to are close enough to make them all day trips and they are easily accessible by train if that is how you plan on traveling as opposed to a car.  Train and car are both very easy in Spain.
> 
> Madrid a a grand city and the architecture is beautiful.  My spanish is pretty crappy but I had to rely on it much more than in Barcelona where everyone speaks English.  I think that is why I liked Madrid more overall; it just seemed to be more authentic Spain in my humble opinion. Try to go not only to the Museo Nacional del Prado, which is stunning, but also go to the palace.
> 
> I'm wondering why your hotel is in Alcorcon though and not in Centro?  Is there easy public transit to get you into the city?  I looked on the map and it seems a little far out of town.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 1. Hotel is free
> 2. 300 m from Central Station
> 3. El Cento Hotels are expensive
> 
> I plan to use as much rail as possible, but may take taxi return to airport as I must traverse the city from SW to NE.
Click to expand...

Lol  you can't argue with free!  

Like everywhere in Europe, rail is easy in Spain.

That taxi ride to the airport may get expensive but I've found over the years, sometimes it's worth paying the "hassle-fee".  Schlepping luggage on public transit is grueling.


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## Saigon

Madrid is wonderful, and well worth a couple of days just to wander around. 

The Prado is a must, but I also recommend the Thyssen-Bonmeister gallery, which is 5 mins walk away. Even if you are not a huge fan, this is one of the best galleries in the world. A wonderful collection of quite modern stuff. 

http://www.museothyssen.org/en/thyssen/exposiciones_historico

The architecture is wonderful, so I always enjoy just wandering the city. 

The main thing, as always, is not to pack TOO much into a few days. It's nice to have time to just wander about the shops in the centre of town.

It's nice to try and use a bit of Spanish, but the level of English in Madrid is very high, so you won't have many problems.


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## Samson

Saigon said:


> Madrid is wonderful, and well worth a couple of days just to wander around.
> 
> The Prado is a must, but I also recommend the Thyssen-Bonmeister gallery, which is 5 mins walk away. Even if you are not a huge fan, this is one of the best galleries in the world. A wonderful collection of quite modern stuff.
> 
> El Museo de arte Thyssen-Bornemisza - (Paseo del Prado, 8, Madrid-España)
> 
> The architecture is wonderful, so I always enjoy just wandering the city.
> 
> The main thing, as always, is not to pack TOO much into a few days. It's nice to have time to just wander about the shops in the centre of town.
> 
> It's nice to try and use a bit of Spanish, but the level of English in Madrid is very high, so you won't have many problems.



Yes I agree. I've always enjoyed spontaneous adventure opposed to planning out every hour of the day.

I unsually target ONE (1) thing for the entire vacation, and justify wandering around for days around this event.

In this case, it will be the Bullfight on Sunday, which is the goal of the entire trip.

Everything else will be extra. I also like hoofing it: Walking Tours. Cannot stand being in a fucking bus with a bunch of tourists...

particularly Americans, all of which seem to be relatives of The Jersey Shore cast, and none of which can ever shut the fuck up about when they are going to eat their next Big Mac.


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## Unkotare

Samson said:


> Saigon said:
> 
> 
> 
> Madrid is wonderful, and well worth a couple of days just to wander around.
> 
> The Prado is a must, but I also recommend the Thyssen-Bonmeister gallery, which is 5 mins walk away. Even if you are not a huge fan, this is one of the best galleries in the world. A wonderful collection of quite modern stuff.
> 
> El Museo de arte Thyssen-Bornemisza - (Paseo del Prado, 8, Madrid-España)
> 
> The architecture is wonderful, so I always enjoy just wandering the city.
> 
> The main thing, as always, is not to pack TOO much into a few days. It's nice to have time to just wander about the shops in the centre of town.
> 
> It's nice to try and use a bit of Spanish, but the level of English in Madrid is very high, so you won't have many problems.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes I agree. I've always enjoyed spontaneous adventure opposed to planning out every hour of the day.
> 
> I unsually target ONE (1) thing for the entire vacation, and justify wandering around for days around this event.
> 
> In this case, it will be the Bullfight on Sunday, which is the goal of the entire trip.
> 
> Everything else will be extra. I also like hoofing it: Walking Tours. Cannot stand being in a fucking bus with a bunch of tourists...
> 
> particularly Americans, all of which seem to be relatives of The Jersey Shore cast, and none of which can ever shut the fuck up about when they are going to eat their next Big Mac.
Click to expand...



What is your nationality?


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## skye

Whatever  you do in Spain ....*do not go to a bullfight,* just too sad  and horrible


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## Decus

skye said:


> Whatever  you do in Spain ....*do not go to a bullfight,* just too sad  and horrible



If they have the better matadors fighting, it can be a truly amazing event.


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## Kiki Cannoli

I do not know Madrid, only Barcelona.

But have a great time!  Eat a lot!


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## skye

Decus said:


> skye said:
> 
> 
> 
> Whatever  you do in Spain ....*do not go to a bullfight,* just too sad  and horrible
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If they have the better matadors fighting, it can be a truly amazing event.
Click to expand...



Not for the bull.

If the matador gets  killed by the bull, for a change, yes,  he deserves it .... that'd be  an amazing event in my opinion!

Bullfights  are horrific and inhumane! they have been  already banned in Barcelona! good for them...hope other cities in Spain and the world will follow their example.


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## Unkotare

skye said:


> Decus said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> skye said:
> 
> 
> 
> Whatever  you do in Spain ....*do not go to a bullfight,* just too sad  and horrible
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If they have the better matadors fighting, it can be a truly amazing event.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Not for the bull.
> 
> If the matador gets  killed by the bull, for a change, yes,  he deserves it .... that'd be  an amazing event in my opinion!
> 
> Bullfights  are horrific and inhumane! they have been  already banned in Barcelona! good for them...hope other cities in Spain and the world will follow their example.
Click to expand...



But you'd like to watch human beings get killed? You're not doing a lot for your argument.


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## Kiki Cannoli

The matador dance is stunning.  Years ago I wanted to see a bull fight.  I had tickets and was headed to stadium...but I couldn't do it.  I stopped the taxi and gave the tickets to the driver.


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## skye

Unkotare said:


> skye said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Decus said:
> 
> 
> 
> If they have the better matadors fighting, it can be a truly amazing event.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Not for the bull.
> 
> If the matador gets  killed by the bull, for a change, yes,  he deserves it .... that'd be  an amazing event in my opinion!
> 
> Bullfights  are horrific and inhumane! they have been  already banned in Barcelona! good for them...hope other cities in Spain and the world will follow their example.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> But you'd like to watch human beings get killed? You're not doing a lot for your argument.
Click to expand...




It's    NOT the bull who has decided to killed the matador!


KILLING  ANIMALS  FOR SPORT OR ENTERTAINMENT IS NOT FUN.   IT'S BARBARIC!


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## Sallow

I loved Madrid. Try this place!

Madrid Restaurant - Botín - the oldest in the world! >> Mad About Madrid

And 

Cocido madrileño - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## Unkotare

skye said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> skye said:
> 
> 
> 
> Not for the bull.
> 
> If the matador gets  killed by the bull, for a change, yes,  he deserves it .... that'd be  an amazing event in my opinion!
> 
> Bullfights  are horrific and inhumane! they have been  already banned in Barcelona! good for them...hope other cities in Spain and the world will follow their example.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But you'd like to watch human beings get killed? You're not doing a lot for your argument.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's    NOT the bull who has decided to killed the matador!
> 
> 
> KILLING  ANIMALS  FOR SPORT OR ENTERTAINMENT IS NOT FUN.   IT'S BARBARIC!
Click to expand...




But taking pleasure in watching a human being get killed isn't? Are these standards common on your home planet?


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## Decus

skye said:


> Decus said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> skye said:
> 
> 
> 
> Whatever  you do in Spain ....*do not go to a bullfight,* just too sad  and horrible
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If they have the better matadors fighting, it can be a truly amazing event.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Not for the bull.
> 
> If the matador gets  killed by the bull, for a change, yes,  he deserves it .... that'd be  an amazing event in my opinion!
> 
> Bullfights  are horrific and inhumane! they have been  already banned in Barcelona! good for them...hope other cities in Spain and the world will follow their example.
Click to expand...


Catalonia's ban is very likely to be overridden by Spain's parliament. A new law is likely to be passed protecting bullfighting as part of the country's cultural heritage. 

No one is forcing you to attend these events and rightly so. However if the idea of bullfighting upsets you then stay away from large scale farms and slaughter houses. Chickens, cows and pigs are often raised in conditions most would consider appalling. In the slaughter houses the animals know their fate and react with appropriate nervousness. Not pleasant. 

You may want to become a vegetarian in order to not contribute to this state of affairs. But know that some are saying that plants also "feel" pain ( Tel Aviv University researcher says plants can see, smell, feel, and taste ). Seems you can't escape the fact that suffering is a part of life.

At least the bulls raised to fight in the arena are brought up in free range pastures. I've visited some in Andalucia, and it is fair to say that these animals enjoy a quality of life that those bred for meat production will never know.


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## skye

Decus said:


> skye said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Decus said:
> 
> 
> 
> If they have the better matadors fighting, it can be a truly amazing event.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Not for the bull.
> 
> If the matador gets  killed by the bull, for a change, yes,  he deserves it .... that'd be  an amazing event in my opinion!
> 
> Bullfights  are horrific and inhumane! they have been  already banned in Barcelona! good for them...hope other cities in Spain and the world will follow their example.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Catalonia's ban is very likely to be overridden by Spain's parliament. A new law is likely to be passed protecting bullfighting as part of the country's cultural heritage.
> 
> No one is forcing you to attend these events and rightly so. However if the idea of bullfighting upsets you then stay away from large scale farms and slaughter houses. Chickens, cows and pigs are often raised in conditions most would consider appalling. In the slaughter houses the animals know their fate and react with appropriate nervousness. Not pleasant.
> 
> You may want to become a vegetarian in order to not contribute to this state of affairs. But know that some are saying that plants also "feel" pain ( Tel Aviv University researcher says plants can see, smell, feel, and taste ). Seems you can't escape the fact that suffering is a part of life.
> 
> At least the bulls raised to fight in the arena are brought up in free range pastures. I've visited some in Andalucia, and it is fair to say that these animals enjoy a quality of life that those bred for meat production will never know.
Click to expand...




Do not lecture me please!

I know exactly how I feel towards bullfighting.  

*"bullfighting is a loathsome sport and those who enjoy it are considerably lower on the evolutionary scale than the bulls."   *


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## Decus

skye said:


> Decus said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> skye said:
> 
> 
> 
> Not for the bull.
> 
> If the matador gets  killed by the bull, for a change, yes,  he deserves it .... that'd be  an amazing event in my opinion!
> 
> Bullfights  are horrific and inhumane! they have been  already banned in Barcelona! good for them...hope other cities in Spain and the world will follow their example.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Catalonia's ban is very likely to be overridden by Spain's parliament. A new law is likely to be passed protecting bullfighting as part of the country's cultural heritage.
> 
> No one is forcing you to attend these events and rightly so. However if the idea of bullfighting upsets you then stay away from large scale farms and slaughter houses. Chickens, cows and pigs are often raised in conditions most would consider appalling. In the slaughter houses the animals know their fate and react with appropriate nervousness. Not pleasant.
> 
> You may want to become a vegetarian in order to not contribute to this state of affairs. But know that some are saying that plants also "feel" pain ( Tel Aviv University researcher says plants can see, smell, feel, and taste ). Seems you can't escape the fact that suffering is a part of life.
> 
> At least the bulls raised to fight in the arena are brought up in free range pastures. I've visited some in Andalucia, and it is fair to say that these animals enjoy a quality of life that those bred for meat production will never know.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Do not lecture me please!
> 
> I know exactly how I feel towards bullfighting.
> 
> *"bullfighting is a loathsome sport and those who enjoy it are considerably lower on the evolutionary scale than the bulls."   *
Click to expand...


Don't give it another thought and help yourself to another pork chop. The pig was only too happy to make the sacrifice for you.


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## skye

Decus said:


> skye said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Decus said:
> 
> 
> 
> Catalonia's ban is very likely to be overridden by Spain's parliament. A new law is likely to be passed protecting bullfighting as part of the country's cultural heritage.
> 
> No one is forcing you to attend these events and rightly so. However if the idea of bullfighting upsets you then stay away from large scale farms and slaughter houses. Chickens, cows and pigs are often raised in conditions most would consider appalling. In the slaughter houses the animals know their fate and react with appropriate nervousness. Not pleasant.
> 
> You may want to become a vegetarian in order to not contribute to this state of affairs. But know that some are saying that plants also "feel" pain ( Tel Aviv University researcher says plants can see, smell, feel, and taste ). Seems you can't escape the fact that suffering is a part of life.
> 
> At least the bulls raised to fight in the arena are brought up in free range pastures. I've visited some in Andalucia, and it is fair to say that these animals enjoy a quality of life that those bred for meat production will never know.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Do not lecture me please!
> 
> I know exactly how I feel towards bullfighting.
> 
> *"bullfighting is a loathsome sport and those who enjoy it are considerably lower on the evolutionary scale than the bulls."   *
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Don't give it another thought and help yourself to another pork chop. The pig was only too happy to make the sacrifice for you.
Click to expand...



I don't eat red meat.


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## Decus

skye said:


> Decus said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> skye said:
> 
> 
> 
> Do not lecture me please!
> 
> I know exactly how I feel towards bullfighting.
> 
> *"bullfighting is a loathsome sport and those who enjoy it are considerably lower on the evolutionary scale than the bulls."   *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Don't give it another thought and help yourself to another pork chop. The pig was only too happy to make the sacrifice for you.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> I don't eat red meat.
Click to expand...


Good for you. Hopefully all your friends feel the same way. You wouldn't want to associate with those less evolved than yourself.


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## Samson

Decus said:


> skye said:
> 
> 
> 
> Whatever  you do in Spain ....*do not go to a bullfight,* just too sad  and horrible
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If they have the better matadors fighting, it can be a truly amazing event.
Click to expand...


Thanks, but I'll maintain an open mind: I'll go to one then make a judgement about Bullfighting for myself.

The fact is, though, it is part of a culture, and to fly across the Atlantic to see a baseball game would be a little silly. The whole point of travel is to experience somewhere that is DIFFERENT.

I hope the PETA crowd doesn't show up to protest, but I bet that's what some will turn this thread into.



Consider starting your own thread.


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## Samson

skye said:


> Decus said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> skye said:
> 
> 
> 
> Not for the bull.
> 
> If the matador gets  killed by the bull, for a change, yes,  he deserves it .... that'd be  an amazing event in my opinion!
> 
> Bullfights  are horrific and inhumane! they have been  already banned in Barcelona! good for them...hope other cities in Spain and the world will follow their example.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Catalonia's ban is very likely to be overridden by Spain's parliament. A new law is likely to be passed protecting bullfighting as part of the country's cultural heritage.
> 
> No one is forcing you to attend these events and rightly so. However if the idea of bullfighting upsets you then stay away from large scale farms and slaughter houses. Chickens, cows and pigs are often raised in conditions most would consider appalling. In the slaughter houses the animals know their fate and react with appropriate nervousness. Not pleasant.
> 
> You may want to become a vegetarian in order to not contribute to this state of affairs. But know that some are saying that plants also "feel" pain ( Tel Aviv University researcher says plants can see, smell, feel, and taste ). Seems you can't escape the fact that suffering is a part of life.
> 
> At least the bulls raised to fight in the arena are brought up in free range pastures. I've visited some in Andalucia, and it is fair to say that these animals enjoy a quality of life that those bred for meat production will never know.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Do not lecture me please!
> 
> I know exactly how I feel towards bullfighting.
> 
> *"bullfighting is a loathsome &#8220;sport&#8221; and those who enjoy it are considerably lower on the evolutionary scale than the bulls."   *
Click to expand...


We got your opinion the first time you posted it. Then you posted it again. And Again. If anyone is lecturing, it is you.

Do you know anything else about Spain, Madrid, or the surroundings?


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## Decus

If you get a chance, go to one of the clubs that features flamenco. Everything from the musicians to the dancers make for a great evening. The locals can usually tell you the best places to go. Try to pick a small club rather than a larger concert venue if you can. The proximity to the artists adds to the experience.

Apologies for my earlier lapse.


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## Samson

Decus said:


> If you get a chance, go to one of the clubs that features flamenco. Everything from the musicians to the dancers make for a great evening. The locals can usually tell you the best places to go. Try to pick a small club rather than a larger concert venue if you can. The proximity to the artists adds to the experience.
> 
> Apologies for my earlier lapse.





No apology needed.

I appreciate your mention of music. I really would like to find a non-touristy place to take in some Flamenco, or Spanish Guitar....I'd love to sit in the corner of some smoky place, puffing a Cubano cigar, drinking Rioja for a couple of hours late one hot Spanish evening.

I want to be Hemingway for a day.


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## Samson

Sallow said:


> I loved Madrid. Try this place!
> 
> Madrid Restaurant - Botín - the oldest in the world! >> Mad About Madrid
> 
> And
> 
> Cocido madrileño - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



The restaurant Botín is located just off Madrids Plaza Mayor in calle Cuchilleros (knife makers street). Botín is written of in _*Hemingways The Sun Also Rises *_and was one of his favourite restaurants.

Ok, I'll buy a bottle of Rioja and the first round of tapas!


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## Decus

Samson said:


> Decus said:
> 
> 
> 
> If you get a chance, go to one of the clubs that features flamenco. Everything from the musicians to the dancers make for a great evening. The locals can usually tell you the best places to go. Try to pick a small club rather than a larger concert venue if you can. The proximity to the artists adds to the experience.
> 
> Apologies for my earlier lapse.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No apology needed.
> 
> I appreciate your mention of music. I really would like to find a non-touristy place to take in some Flamenco, or Spanish Guitar....I'd love to sit in the corner of some smoky place, puffing a Cubano cigar, drinking Rioja for a couple of hours late one hot Spanish evening.
> 
> I want to be Hemingway for a day.
Click to expand...


You are going to have a great time but that you already know.


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## Unkotare

skye said:


> Decus said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> skye said:
> 
> 
> 
> Not for the bull.
> 
> If the matador gets  killed by the bull, for a change, yes,  he deserves it .... that'd be  an amazing event in my opinion!
> 
> Bullfights  are horrific and inhumane! they have been  already banned in Barcelona! good for them...hope other cities in Spain and the world will follow their example.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Catalonia's ban is very likely to be overridden by Spain's parliament. A new law is likely to be passed protecting bullfighting as part of the country's cultural heritage.
> 
> No one is forcing you to attend these events and rightly so. However if the idea of bullfighting upsets you then stay away from large scale farms and slaughter houses. Chickens, cows and pigs are often raised in conditions most would consider appalling. In the slaughter houses the animals know their fate and react with appropriate nervousness. Not pleasant.
> 
> You may want to become a vegetarian in order to not contribute to this state of affairs. But know that some are saying that plants also "feel" pain ( Tel Aviv University researcher says plants can see, smell, feel, and taste ). Seems you can't escape the fact that suffering is a part of life.
> 
> At least the bulls raised to fight in the arena are brought up in free range pastures. I've visited some in Andalucia, and it is fair to say that these animals enjoy a quality of life that those bred for meat production will never know.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Do not lecture me please!
Click to expand...



But it's ok for you to lecture everyone else?


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## Unkotare

Samson said:


> The fact is, though, it is part of a culture, and to fly across the Atlantic to see a baseball game would be a little silly.





There is some pretty good baseball in the Netherlands.


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## Unkotare

Samson said:


> I want to be Hemingway for a day.





Don't make it his last one!  That day didn't end well.


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## Samson




----------



## Saigon

I went to a bullfight in Colombia a few years back. 

I thought it was vile, but it was an interesting experience. Watching the crowd was the most amazing thing - they were as hugely psyched up as my football crowd.

I understand that in Spain the bull is no longer killed - whereas in Colombia it was a bloodbath.


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## Unkotare

Saigon said:


> It's also my understand [sic] that in Spain the bull is no longer killed - whereas in Colombia it was a bloodbath.





'understanding'



-You're welcome


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## Swagger

Strange how bull fighting is celebrated as an almost integral part of Spanish culture and heritage (it even features on tourism flyers), yet the noble art of dog fighting throughout the rest of Europe is vilified.


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## Saigon

Swagger said:


> Strange how bull fighting is celebrated as an almost integral part of Spanish culture and heritage (it even features on tourism flyers), yet the noble art of dog fighting throughout the rest of Europe is vilified.



Cock fighting is a unique part of Filipino culture, but is vilified elsewhere; much as both dog and bull fighting are rightly vilified across the civilised world. 

I chose to see a bullfight, but have opted not to see cock fighting, and would never go to see a dog fight. All three are repulsive by nature.


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## Swagger

Saigon said:


> Swagger said:
> 
> 
> 
> Strange how bull fighting is celebrated as an almost integral part of Spanish culture and heritage (it even features on tourism flyers), yet the noble art of dog fighting throughout the rest of Europe is vilified.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cock fighting is a unique part of Filipino culture, but is vilified elsewhere; much as both dog and bull fighting are rightly vilified across the civilised world.
> 
> I chose to see a bullfight, but have opted not to see cock fighting, and would never go to see a dog fight. All three are repulsive by nature.
Click to expand...


I've attended many dog fights. But contrary to public perception, the vast majority of pedigree fighting dogs survive the ring. They're seen as investments. Some of which cost upwards of £12,000 each. Any dogs that are fatally injured are humanely dispatched by placing a live wire on their tongue. They're dead in the blink of an eye.


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## Saigon

Swagger - 

While that does sound a step up from 'Amores Perros', it still seems cruel and unecessary to me. 

Ditto fox hunting, cock fighting and forcing bears to dance. I can't take enjoyment from watching the suffering of an animal.


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## Swagger

Saigon said:


> Swagger -
> 
> While that does sound a step up from 'Amores Perros', it still seems cruel and unecessary to me.
> 
> Ditto fox hunting, cock fighting and forcing bears to dance. I can't take enjoyment from watching the suffering of an animal.



Genital mutilation seems "cruel and unnecessary" to me. So does mutilating petty criminals. But who am I to lecture on the moral compass of a culture besides my own?


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## Saigon

Swagger -

Because cruelty can not be justified by culture alone. 

Female Gential Mutiliation is an act of torture - it is as simple as that. The fact that it has been accepted practice in Somalia and Ethiopia for hundreds of years before Islam does nothing to make it something Somali's should accept today, and certainly not something we in the West should condone. 

To me this is the same question as paedophilia - consenting adults can do what they like (be it S&M, wearing niqab, dangling weights from fish hooks stuck in their chest, or bondage) but the line of what we should or should not accept is passed when such practices are forced on those who do not or can not consent.

Children can not consent, and neither can animals.


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## Sallow

Samson said:


>





That's place rocked.


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## Samson

Swagger said:


> Saigon said:
> 
> 
> 
> Swagger -
> 
> While that does sound a step up from 'Amores Perros', it still seems cruel and unecessary to me.
> 
> Ditto fox hunting, cock fighting and forcing bears to dance. I can't take enjoyment from watching the suffering of an animal.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Genital mutilation seems "cruel and unnecessary" to me. So does mutilating petty criminals. But who am I to lecture on the moral compass of a culture besides my own?
Click to expand...


I'm not positive the experience will be "enjoyable."

I suppose instead of a Bullfight I could fly to Thailand and have a couple of oiled girls give me a full body rub.

Or I could simply stay at home and have a bowl of ice cream.

The point is to experience variety.

I categorize Man vs. Animal differently than Animal vs. Animal or Man vs. Man. However slight the probability, the idea of a man being killed fighting an animal is more visceral a contest: one that has been going on forever, and one that Man often lost after falling out of his tree, and still occasionally loses.


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## Esmeralda

Samson said:


> In Mid June. arriving on Thursday, 10 AM Madrid Intl Airport NE of the city.
> 
> The Main attraction, of course will be the Bullfight. I have tickets for Sunday.
> 
> Then fly out Wednesday.
> 
> So I have Friday, Saturday, Monday, and Tuesday without plans.
> 
> What to do?
> 
> Here's what I'm considering: Getting a Museum pass and spending Friday in Madrid, Saturday in Toledo, and Monday in Avila and Segovia, then Tuesday tour more in Madrid.
> 
> Whatchya think?
> 
> My hotel will be in Alcorcon, a suburb in SW Madrid



I think it sounds great.  

A couple of years ago I did 3 weeks in Spain, just me and my backpack. Started in Barcelona, went to Basque country, Segovia, Madrid, Cordoba, Granada, Malaga and along the coast.  I love Spain.


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## Esmeralda

I would never go to a bullfight.  Bullfights are not a big deal to everyone who is Spanish: that's a fallacy and a stereotype.  In every culture there are things one won't like or agree with.  If you are going to be a world traveler, you have to expect you are going to disagree with some things that are a part of different cultures.  Or else, just stay home and sit in your own backyard.


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## Esmeralda

One thing to know. If you are traveling around Spain, using public transport: trains are expensive, buses are cheap.  Use the buses.  I traveled around Spain for 2 weeks.  The first time I took the train, then I learned that the buses were so much cheaper, and the rest of the time I took the bus. Went from Barcelona to Basque Country, then made my way through the middle of Spain down to the south and spent some time in Granada and that area.  On another 2 week trip, I was staying near Malaga, and there is a nice train system in that area that goes up and down the coast.


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## Saigon

Esmeralda said:


> I would never go to a bullfight.  Bullfights are not a big deal to everyone who is Spanish: that's a fallacy and a stereotype.  In every culture there are things one won't like or agree with.  If you are going to be a world traveler, you have to expect you are going to disagree with some things that are a part of different cultures.  Or else, just stay home and sit in your own backyard.



I'd go further - bullfights these days are a tired old cliche that most Spaniards find a little embarassing. As with most cultures, the postcards are not the daily reality. 


Modern Spain is much more about football than bulls!


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## Samson

Saigon said:


> Esmeralda said:
> 
> 
> 
> I would never go to a bullfight.  Bullfights are not a big deal to everyone who is Spanish: that's a fallacy and a stereotype.  In every culture there are things one won't like or agree with.  If you are going to be a world traveler, you have to expect you are going to disagree with some things that are a part of different cultures.  Or else, just stay home and sit in your own backyard.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'd go further - bullfights these days are a tired old cliche that most Spaniards find a little embarassing. As with most cultures, the postcards are not the daily reality.
> 
> 
> Modern Spain is much more about football than bulls!
Click to expand...


I moved my accomodations to a hotel that is across the street from the football stadium. Much closer to Madrid attractions. I'll still be going to a bullfight one afternoon, and have secured the best of seats.

There is something that is causing me to have second thoughts about the trip.

THERE IS A TAX OF OVER $500.00 on the RT Air from Newark to Madrid! WTF?


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## Esmeralda

Samson said:


> Saigon said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Esmeralda said:
> 
> 
> 
> I would never go to a bullfight.  Bullfights are not a big deal to everyone who is Spanish: that's a fallacy and a stereotype.  In every culture there are things one won't like or agree with.  If you are going to be a world traveler, you have to expect you are going to disagree with some things that are a part of different cultures.  Or else, just stay home and sit in your own backyard.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'd go further - bullfights these days are a tired old cliche that most Spaniards find a little embarassing. As with most cultures, the postcards are not the daily reality.
> 
> 
> Modern Spain is much more about football than bulls!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I moved my accomodations to a hotel that is across the street from the football stadium. Much closer to Madrid attractions. I'll still be going to a bullfight one afternoon, and have secured the best of seats.
> 
> There is something that is causing me to have second thoughts about the trip.
> 
> THERE IS A TAX OF OVER $500.00 on the RT Air from Newark to Madrid! WTF?
Click to expand...


That seems very excessive.  Can you fly out of a different airport, with a lower tax?


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## Samson

Esmeralda said:


> Samson said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Saigon said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'd go further - bullfights these days are a tired old cliche that most Spaniards find a little embarassing. As with most cultures, the postcards are not the daily reality.
> 
> 
> Modern Spain is much more about football than bulls!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I moved my accomodations to a hotel that is across the street from the football stadium. Much closer to Madrid attractions. I'll still be going to a bullfight one afternoon, and have secured the best of seats.
> 
> There is something that is causing me to have second thoughts about the trip.
> 
> THERE IS A TAX OF OVER $500.00 on the RT Air from Newark to Madrid! WTF?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> That seems very excessive.  Can you fly out of a different airport, with a lower tax?
Click to expand...


Haven't checked. Canceling the trip will cost $850 RT (Newark/Madrid) but save about $550.00 (international surcharge),_ if that is refundable._


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## Samson

I took more than 10 pictures, but thought USMB would appreciate these the most.


I included those taken in Paris and Lisbon before I was in Madrid.

Terrific Trip. If I had it to do again, I might have stayed in Lisbon longer.

Bullfight was a one time deal: Seen one, and really do not care to see another. The highlight was that a Matador got tossed in the air, twirling end-over-end. The horn must have caught his pants, which were ripped from knee to waist. The crowd awarded him both ears.


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## ekrem

Too dry.


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## Samson

ekrem said:


> Too dry.



Thanks for that useful post.


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## ekrem

Samson said:


> ekrem said:
> 
> 
> 
> Too dry.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks for that useful post.
Click to expand...


Spain = too dry therefore limited biodiversity.


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## Samson

ekrem said:


> Samson said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ekrem said:
> 
> 
> 
> Too dry.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks for that useful post.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Spain = too dry therefore limited biodiversity.
Click to expand...


Yes, I was pleased with the absence of flies, rats, and parasites.

I found the weather perfect; very much like Colorado, warm yet not humid. It became cooler and overcast the final few days I was there.


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## Samson

I could have spent days here


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## yazi

Had a lovely tour in Spain with Erickson Cycle Tours June 19 to July 5. The modest Picos de Europa mountains in Cantabria and Asturias and specially all the places in Spain is much comfortable and reliable for the tourist...


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## Samson

yazi said:


> Had a lovely tour in Spain with Erickson Cycle Tours June 19 to July 5. The modest Picos de Europa mountains in Cantabria and Asturias and specially all the places in Spain is much comfortable and reliable for the tourist...



I especially like Puente Viesgo. Very lush (Irish?) compared to area around Madrid. It is no wonder Celts settled nearby.


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## Unkotare

Did the rain fall mainly on the plain?


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## Toro

Off to Italy on Saturday!


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## Samson

Toro said:


> Off to Italy on Saturday!



Sounds like an Italy Thread should be started soon.

PICS!!


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## Toro

I haven't been to Italy in 24 years.

It's a great country.  Even the ugly people are beautiful!


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## Samson

Toro said:


> I haven't been to Italy in 24 years.
> 
> It's a great country.  Even the ugly people are beautiful!



Indeed: Italy is the only country I've visited where I actually took a picture of a couple because they were so amazingly attractive, even clothed.


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## Political Junky

Loved Spain .. Madrid, Seville, Granada, Barcelona, San Sebastian. I'd spend more time in the North West next time. If I could, I'd retire there ... weather is excellent for me.


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## yazi

Spain is my favorite country because in this country many places and required many times to visit the Spain because its beauty is amazing and Visit the Plaza Mayor specially Madrid is my favorite place in Spain..


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## Toro

Arrived in Venice today.

What an amazingly beautiful city.

Some people hate it.  I cannot even remotely fathom why.


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## Samson

Toro said:


> Arrived in Venice today.
> 
> What an amazingly beautiful city.
> 
> Some people hate it.  I cannot even remotely fathom why.



One of my favorites because it is dieing and it knows it, yet goes on living.


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