# Biofuels aren’t reducing gas prices or emissions



## longknife (Jun 9, 2019)

*Another phony Greenie move that did nothing but reduce the amount of land growing corn to be fed to livestock and provided for human consumption. Didn’t do a thing to help the environment and actually hiked prices for things containing corn products.*

_The Renewable Fuel Standard (RFS) was pushed through under the Bush 43 administration at a time when rising gas prices and global warming were both weighing heavily on the minds of the public. Ethanol blending was touted as a way to fight both of those concerns._

_So how has it worked out? According to the U.S. Government Accountability Office (GAO) it hasn’t done much on either score. The net effect on gas prices has been basically a wash and the changes have had only a negligible effect on emissions. (Bloomberg) _

Read more @ Study: Biofuels aren't reducing gas prices or emissions


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## elektra (Aug 18, 2019)

But they did increase the cost of food!


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## abu afak (Aug 26, 2019)

longknife said:


> *Another phony Greenie move that did nothing but reduce the amount of land growing corn to be fed to livestock and provided for human consumption. Didn’t do a thing to help the environment and actually hiked prices for things containing corn products.*
> 
> _The Renewable Fuel Standard (RFS) was pushed through under the Bush 43 administration at a time when rising gas prices and global warming were both weighing heavily on the minds of the public. Ethanol blending was touted as a way to fight both of those concerns._
> 
> ...


A BUSH "Greenie Move" that benfited small Midwestern Farming Red States?

That Trumpov is happy to promise more of?
`
`


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## Augustine_ (Aug 26, 2019)

longknife said:


> *Another phony Greenie move that did nothing but reduce the amount of land growing corn to be fed to livestock and provided for human consumption. Didn’t do a thing to help the environment and actually hiked prices for things containing corn products.*
> 
> _The Renewable Fuel Standard (RFS) was pushed through under the Bush 43 administration at a time when rising gas prices and global warming were both weighing heavily on the minds of the public. Ethanol blending was touted as a way to fight both of those concerns._
> 
> ...


Trump has gone all in on ethanol as a subsidy for farmers.  Maybe you didn't know.

Trump administration announces plan to put more ethanol in gasoline


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## harmonica (Aug 27, 2019)

a LOT of these laws/policies are DUMBSHIT/unworkable
they look good on paper--that's it


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## the other mike (Aug 27, 2019)

Always be skeptical of green energy skeptics. They have fossil fuels up there sleeves one way or another without exceptions.


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## elektra (Aug 28, 2019)

In Iowa, ethanol fuel is .20 cents more than gas


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## Toddsterpatriot (Aug 28, 2019)

Angelo said:


> Always be skeptical of green energy skeptics. They have fossil fuels up there sleeves one way or another without exceptions.



How many millions in taxpayer dollars got sunk into that thing?

How much is the fuel you get out? $50 a gallon? $100?

Post a link, I'm intrigued!


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## the other mike (Aug 28, 2019)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> How many millions in taxpayer dollars got sunk into that thing?
> 
> How much is the fuel you get out? $50 a gallon? $100?
> 
> Post a link, I'm intrigued!


I suppose we have to wait until BP and Exxon corner most of the market first.
*Advanced biofuels and algae research: targeting the technical capability to produce 10,000 barrels per day by 2025
Advanced biofuels and algae research | ExxonMobil*


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## Manonthestreet (Aug 28, 2019)

Angelo said:


> Toddsterpatriot said:
> 
> 
> > How many millions in taxpayer dollars got sunk into that thing?
> ...


lgae has the capability of doubling in size over a 24-hour period. It can grow in numerous locations as well, including in the water supplies that are around power plants or paper factories. We could potentially have access to more energy resources with this biofuel than we would if we continue to concentrate on petroleum products. Since the reserves of crude oil, coal, and natural gas are expected to be gone in 60-80 years, this product could be a realistic Plan B. 
15 Advantages and Disadvantages of Using Algae as a Biofuel
Another hoax driven by lies.


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## Dick Foster (Aug 28, 2019)

longknife said:


> *Another phony Greenie move that did nothing but reduce the amount of land growing corn to be fed to livestock and provided for human consumption. Didn’t do a thing to help the environment and actually hiked prices for things containing corn products.*
> 
> _The Renewable Fuel Standard (RFS) was pushed through under the Bush 43 administration at a time when rising gas prices and global warming were both weighing heavily on the minds of the public. Ethanol blending was touted as a way to fight both of those concerns._
> 
> ...



Biofuels are bunk and a really stupid idea since it takes more oil to produce them than they save. Basically biofuels are just another scandalous welfare program for big farming enterprises to grow more corn that we never needed in the first place. It's time to stop subsidizing farming and everything else that can't stand on its own. Subsidies are a mechanism of socalism.


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## Manonthestreet (Aug 28, 2019)

Dick Foster said:


> longknife said:
> 
> 
> > *Another phony Greenie move that did nothing but reduce the amount of land growing corn to be fed to livestock and provided for human consumption. Didn’t do a thing to help the environment and actually hiked prices for things containing corn products.*
> ...


*2. It requires significant fertilizer use.*
We can grow algae in massive quantities only when there is sufficient fertilizer available to the producers. It would require up to 15 million metric tons of nitrogen to create enough algae to create 39 billion liters of biodiesel through this effort, along with 2 million metric tons of phosphorus, which represents roughly half of what is already in use on American croplands today. Since some of these nutrients come from petroleum-based products, it shifts the needle on carbon neutrality somewhat. There is also the threat of run-off that could impact local waterways.
*3. It offers a high production cost using current technologies.*
Solix was able to create biodiesel from algae as early as 2009 using current technologies, but it came at a high price. You would need to pay about $33 per gallon because of the energy levels required to circulate gasses and materials inside bioreactors to encourage growth. Estimates back then suggested that the price of this resource could eventually come down to $5.50 per gallon. If the byproducts of this commercial product could also be sold, then pricing might reach $3.50 to $4 per gallon. That is still the equivalent of crude oil begin $150 per barrel. 15 Advantages and Disadvantages of Using Algae as a Biofuel
All falls under the heading of "Prices must necessarily rise"....


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## the other mike (Aug 28, 2019)

Dick Foster said:


> Biofuels are bunk and a really stupid idea since it takes more oil to produce them than they save. Basically biofuels are just another scandalous welfare program for big farming enterprises to grow more corn that we never needed in the first place. It's time to stop subsidizing farming and everything else that can't stand on its own. Subsidies are a mechanism of socalism.



Nobody takes a fossil fuel shill seriously.
You really need to work on some better composure
in your arguments.


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## Manonthestreet (Aug 28, 2019)

When you produce biofuels like biodiesel from algae, then it takes the energy equivalent of several gallons’ worth of a petroleum-based fuel to produce a single gallon of the eco-friendly variety. Using current farming techniques, it can take roughly 120% more energy to produce a gallon of algae biofuel when compared to the energy it contains.  15 Advantages and Disadvantages of Using Algae as a Biofuel
Called waste written large....waste of water....waste of energy.....waste of fertilizer which will drive price of food thru the rood


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## Toddsterpatriot (Aug 28, 2019)

Angelo said:


> Toddsterpatriot said:
> 
> 
> > How many millions in taxpayer dollars got sunk into that thing?
> ...



Wow! 10,000 barrels a day!! 
No mention of cost at that link.


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## the other mike (Aug 28, 2019)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> Angelo said:
> 
> 
> > Toddsterpatriot said:
> ...


I'm not arguing it's not too expensive now, between the ethanol and oil and gas lobbyists,
without subsidies like the ones owned-Congress members give fossil fuel- especially nuclear.(subsidies in general)

Private ventures will never be feasible without the infrastructure in place and cooperation of auto-makers.


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## Dick Foster (Aug 28, 2019)

Angelo said:


> Dick Foster said:
> 
> 
> > Biofuels are bunk and a really stupid idea since it takes more oil to produce them than they save. Basically biofuels are just another scandalous welfare program for big farming enterprises to grow more corn that we never needed in the first place. It's time to stop subsidizing farming and everything else that can't stand on its own. Subsidies are a mechanism of socalism.
> ...



Well that just goes to show that you don't know diddly squat shit about anything at all. I'm about as far from an advocate of continued reliace on  fossil fuels as you can imagine. However I'm not stupid enough to be taken in by foolish notions that have no chance of ever being economically viable either. 
What I am for is something that makes some sense to first power the grid and that is nuclear fission but not the inherently dangerous lightwater crap that's running now but thorium fueled molten salt reactors or LFTRs.  LFTRs could be employed in very short order since most of the development has already been accomplished leaving only some simple engineering work regarding scaling to be done. 
Once you have the grid taken care of only then does other stuff like the currently idiotic electric cars make any sense. But the grid is the first and foremost problem to address and neither the silly solar or wind idiocy will ever be the answer. 
The only energy technology that makes any sense from engineering or economic standpoints today is thorium fueled nuclear fission. The rest are all just so much noise and snake oil being peddled to the liberal arts shitforbrains and largely  technically illiterate population.


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## KissMy (Aug 28, 2019)

longknife said:


> *Another phony Greenie move that did nothing but reduce the amount of land growing corn to be fed to livestock and provided for human consumption. Didn’t do a thing to help the environment and actually hiked prices for things containing corn products.*
> 
> _The Renewable Fuel Standard (RFS) was pushed through under the Bush 43 administration at a time when rising gas prices and global warming were both weighing heavily on the minds of the public. Ethanol blending was touted as a way to fight both of those concerns._
> 
> ...


FAKE NEWS! Prior to Ethanol, Gasoline Prices were HIGHER than Diesel Prices. Now Gasoline Prices are ALWAYS LOWER than Diesel!


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## Toddsterpatriot (Aug 28, 2019)

Angelo said:


> Toddsterpatriot said:
> 
> 
> > Angelo said:
> ...



*subsidies like the ones owned-Congress members give fossil fuel*

Writing off business expenses isn't a subsidy for fossil fuels.


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## the other mike (Aug 28, 2019)

Study: U.S. Fossil Fuel Subsidies Exceed Pentagon Spending


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## Toddsterpatriot (Aug 28, 2019)

KissMy said:


> longknife said:
> 
> 
> > *Another phony Greenie move that did nothing but reduce the amount of land growing corn to be fed to livestock and provided for human consumption. Didn’t do a thing to help the environment and actually hiked prices for things containing corn products.*
> ...



*Now Gasoline Prices are ALWAYS LOWER than Diesel! *

ULSD requires more refining.


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## Toddsterpatriot (Aug 28, 2019)

Angelo said:


> Study: U.S. Fossil Fuel Subsidies Exceed Pentagon Spending



Yeah, when I want a deeper understanding of accounting, Rolling Stone is my favorite source.


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## the other mike (Aug 28, 2019)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> Angelo said:
> 
> 
> > Study: U.S. Fossil Fuel Subsidies Exceed Pentagon Spending
> ...


Rolling stone and Howard Stern.


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## Toddsterpatriot (Aug 28, 2019)

Angelo said:


> Study: U.S. Fossil Fuel Subsidies Exceed Pentagon Spending



_The study defines “subsidy” very broadly, as many economists do. It accounts for the “differences between actual consumer fuel prices and how much consumers would pay if prices fully reflected supply costs plus the taxes needed to reflect environmental costs” and other damage, including premature deaths from air pollution._

They count the "cost of global warming" as a subsidy.

_These subsidies are largely invisible to the public, and don’t appear in national budgets. _

They don't appear, because they don't add to government spending or reduce government revenue.
Unlike the "green energy" handouts that actually are subsidies.

_ Eliminating subsidies for fossil fuels would have created global “net economic welfare gains” in 2015 of “more than $1.3 trillion, or 1.7 percent of global GDP,” the study found. (These net gains are “calculated as the benefits from reduced environmental damage and higher revenue minus the losses from consumers facing higher energy prices.”)_

Keep this in mind when one of those idiots, (AOC...Sanders), says their plan "pays for itself".

_For the United States, the $649 billion in fossil fuel subsidies exceeded even the extravagant amount of money the country spent on defense. _

Imaginary spending is always more than extravagant. 

_fossil fuel subsidies were nearly 10 times what Congress spent on education._

Education is local, why does Congress spend anything?

Do you realize how much Congress spends by NOT taxing everyone at 100%?
Trillions!!!!
It's outrageous.


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## KissMy (Aug 28, 2019)

The USA spent over $25 Trillion Subsidizing Oil fighting foreign wars to get the Oil & protect Oil shipping lanes! That is more than the Debt!


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