# Guns - a list



## Wry Catcher (Dec 9, 2012)

Today I've begun a list of incidents of gun violence,  It is in response to a thread begun by PoliticalChic who posted on page one of her thread Lott Guns Down Costas! this:

*3. ...what Costas ignores is that guns save a lot more lives than they cost each year. And that's not even mentioning the roughly 2 million times a year that people use guns defensively.*

I don't believe her.  So herein is the challenge.  Every day I will post incidents of gun violence and she - or anyone who pleases - can post evidence in support of her allegation.

1. 12-08) 19:59 PST OAKLAND -- Oakland police were looking for a suspect Saturday afternoon who fatally shot a man near Jack London Square.

The shooting occurred around 2:45 p.m. on the 400 block of Third Street, just south of Broadway. Witnesses saw the suspect flee in a vehicle, according to police.

The neighborhood is a mix of historic produce warehouses, upscale condominiums, cafes and restaurants. Crime in the area is unusual, although in July gunfire erupted outside a local movie theater, injuring five people

and,
2.  3 dead in Calif. Indian reservation shooting
Updated 9:56 a.m., Sunday, December 9, 2012

PORTERVILLE, Calif. (AP) &#8212; Three people died and four others, including two young girls, were wounded after a shooting on an Indian reservation in Central California, authorities said.

and,

3.  (12-09) 06:51 PST ANTIOCH -- A 43-year-old man was shot dead outside his Antioch home, police said Sunday.

The victim, whose name was not immediately released, was shot numerous times outside his home on the 2300 block of Banyan Way north of Highway 4 about 10:40 p.m. Saturday, police said. Officers were alerted to the shooting by the man's girlfriend. 


All three posted on SFGate this morning.

See:  SFGate: San Francisco Bay Area - News, Sports, Business, Entertainment, Classifieds - SFGate

BTW, anyone who wants to peruse their local news to post gun violence or incidents where a gun was responsible for saving lives or property, please do.


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## TakeAStepBack (Dec 9, 2012)

Keep and Bear Arms - Gun Owners Home Page - 2nd Amendment Supporters


Here is a hundred or more examples of armed citizens saving lives, defending property or themselves.


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## TakeAStepBack (Dec 9, 2012)

http://deadlinelive.info/2012/08/07...es-cop-by-making-150-yard-shot-with-a-pistol/

August 7, 2012 by Jack Blood  

Armed Citizen in TX Stops Shooting Spree and Saves Cop by Making 150+ Yard Shot With a Pistol

something more recent.


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## RetiredGySgt (Dec 9, 2012)

Not a fair challenge because the main stream press does NOT report incidents of armed citizens defending themselves.


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## TakeAStepBack (Dec 9, 2012)

No, but local media does and there are those who publish nothing but these types of incidents.

Guns Save Lives - Stories of Self Defense


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## bigrebnc1775 (Dec 9, 2012)

Wry Catcher said:


> Today I've begun a list of incidents of gun violence,  It is in response to a thread begun by PoliticalChic who posted on page one of her thread Lott Guns Down Costas! this:
> 
> *3. ...what Costas ignores is that guns save a lot more lives than they cost each year. And that's not even mentioning the roughly 2 million times a year that people use guns defensively.*
> 
> ...



[ame=http://youtu.be/D1jwj2bipLo]Armed 71 Year-old Elderly Man Stops Robbers and Saves Lives in Internet Cafe - YouTube[/ame]


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## CrusaderFrank (Dec 9, 2012)

Here's what happens when Progressives rule over unarmed citizens


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## bigrebnc1775 (Dec 9, 2012)

[ame=http://youtu.be/XaQsbdXQuZI]Wisconsin Concealed Carry Stops Armed Robbery - YouTube[/ame]


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## Arthur (Dec 9, 2012)

On national television, you can talk about the sordid details of your sex life, the depth of your religious piety or your belief that an organization that no longer exists, Acorn, stole the 2012 presidential election &#8212; a fantasy held by half of Republicans. You can call climate change a hoax, you can say the moon landing never happened, you can even praise Alex Rodriguez, though you shouldn&#8217;t.

But you cannot talk about the 300 million or more guns circulating in private hands in the United States. The most armed society in the world, ranked first among 179 nations in the rate of gun ownership, had 9,146 gun homicides in 2009. The same year, Canada had 173. But don&#8217;t bring that up.

In Florida, it was against the law &#8212; until the law was blocked by a federal judge last summer &#8212; for hospital doctors to even ask about firearms ownership of victims, even though gunshot wounds account for 1 in 25 emergency room visits.

Conservatives complain about anti-free-speech vigilantes who keep incendiary voices of the right from being heard on college campuses, and they have a valid point. But some of these same First Amendment defenders are the first to smother any talk about the American weapons culture. The gun gag rules.

A gun in the home is 12 times more likely to result in the death of a household member, or a visitor, than an intruder, a 2010 study by the official journal of the Southern Medical Association found.  


The Great Gun Gag - NYTimes.com


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## bigrebnc1775 (Dec 9, 2012)

notice the robbers fired first.

[ame=http://youtu.be/Hi7_uiAUEa4]Armed robbery goes wrong, shootout in Texas convenience store, caught on camera - YouTube[/ame]


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## Arthur (Dec 9, 2012)

Firearm-related violence vastly increases expenditures for health care, services for the disabled, insurance, and our criminal justice system," writes Dr. Steven Lippmann of University of Louisville School of Medicine, and colleagues. "The bills are paid by taxpayers and those who buy insurance."

Based on a review of the available scientific data, Dr. Lippmann and co-authors conclude that the dangers of having a gun at home far outweigh the safety benefits. Research shows that access to guns greatly increases the risk of death and firearm-related violence. A gun in the home is twelve times more likely to result in the death of a household member or visitor than an intruder.

Guns in homes can increase risk of death and firearm-related violence


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## bigrebnc1775 (Dec 9, 2012)

Arthur said:


> Firearm-related violence vastly increases expenditures for health care, services for the disabled, insurance, and our criminal justice system," writes Dr. Steven Lippmann of University of Louisville School of Medicine, and colleagues. "The bills are paid by taxpayers and those who buy insurance."
> 
> Based on a review of the available scientific data, Dr. Lippmann and co-authors conclude that the dangers of having a gun at home far outweigh the safety benefits. Research shows that access to guns greatly increases the risk of death and firearm-related violence. A gun in the home is twelve times more likely to result in the death of a household member or visitor than an intruder.
> 
> Guns in homes can increase risk of death and firearm-related violence



So far so much bull shit.


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## Arthur (Dec 9, 2012)

The backlash "aimed" at Bob Costas over his gun remarks is revealing on many levels ("Costas expected flak on gun remarks," Dec. 4). A segment of our country has become so paranoid and delusional that their Second Amendment rights are about to be taken away (when there is no proof of this at all) that they self-righteously have no qualms over taking away Mr. Costas' First Amendment rights of free speech.

Mr. Costas did not promote gun control or restricting guns from hunters. He simply voiced an opinion about the "gun culture" in our society. 
Problem with guns in society comes from within us : Stltoday


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## CrusaderFrank (Dec 9, 2012)

Here's what happens when Progressive rule unarmed subjects: Nazi Germany, Mao's China, Stalin's Russia, Pol Pot, etc


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## boedicca (Dec 9, 2012)

What percent of guns in the U.S. are used in crimes each year?


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## bigrebnc1775 (Dec 9, 2012)

Arthur said:


> The backlash "aimed" at Bob Costas over his gun remarks is revealing on many levels ("Costas expected flak on gun remarks," Dec. 4). A segment of our country has become so paranoid and delusional that their Second Amendment rights are about to be taken away (when there is no proof of this at all) that they self-righteously have no qualms over taking away Mr. Costas' First Amendment rights of free speech.
> 
> Mr. Costas did not promote gun control or restricting guns from hunters. He simply voiced an opinion about the "gun culture" in our society.
> Problem with guns in society comes from within us : Stltoday



You are such an idiot I do recall him saying if the shooter had not killed the victim and then used it on himself he woyld be here today.
Only people I know of that use "if he had not had gun" mare gun grabbers.
I say if the victim would have had a gun she would be alive today.


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## Arthur (Dec 9, 2012)

We just have a different opinion about Bob Costas remarks and gun culture in the US.

7 year old boy accidentally shot to death by his father.
http://www.examiner.com/article/boy...y-his-father-outside-a-gun-store-pennsylvania


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## Wry Catcher (Dec 9, 2012)

TakeAStepBack said:


> Keep and Bear Arms - Gun Owners Home Page - 2nd Amendment Supporters
> 
> 
> Here is a hundred or more examples of armed citizens saving lives, defending property or themselves.



Seriously?  See the post above for a dose of reality.


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## Arthur (Dec 9, 2012)

GUNS from other states have a tragic habit of winding up on New Jersey streets. Many land in what law enforcement have dubbed the Passaic River Corridor, the stretch between Newark and Paterson that is fertile ground for gun runners.

Since May, federal, state, county and local law enforcement agencies have worked hard to crack down on gun traffickers and the dangerous merchandise they carry. The unprecedented collaboration between agencies and departments has netted 76 guns and brought 405 arrests, the state Attorney General's Office announced this week.

Until other states tighten up their gun laws to prevent, for example, straw purchasers in states that don't require permits from buying guns and selling them to gun runners. That can best happen by governors of states with strong laws, like New Jersey, encouraging their counterparts in other states to match the tougher laws.


Ohio Gov. John Kasich signed a law last year to allow people to carry concealed weapons into bars and other places that serve alcohol, joining Arizona and Tennessee. Gov. Bobby Jindal of Louisiana signed a law in 2010 allowing guns into houses of worship. North Dakota, Texas, Maine and a raft of other states allow employees to bring a gun to work as long as it stays locked in the car. The Wisconsin Senate now allows members to carry guns on the floor, while the state Assembly allows guns in the public viewing galleries.



The Record: Stopping guns - NorthJersey.com


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## Quantum Windbag (Dec 9, 2012)

Wry Catcher said:


> Today I've begun a list of incidents of gun violence,  It is in response to a thread begun by PoliticalChic who posted on page one of her thread Lott Guns Down Costas! this:
> 
> *3. ...what Costas ignores is that guns save a lot more lives than they cost each year. And that's not even mentioning the roughly 2 million times a year that people use guns defensively.*
> 
> ...



You don't believe in common sense, so you decided to demonstrate your intelligence by posting drivel. can I ask why, or would that strain your ability to regurgitate stupidity?


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## C_Clayton_Jones (Dec 9, 2012)

Most, if not all, of the conservatives subscribing to this thread are doing more to undermine Second Amendment rights than protecting them. 

Please stop &#8216;helping.&#8217;


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## bigrebnc1775 (Dec 9, 2012)

c_clayton_jones said:


> most, if not all, of the conservatives subscribing to this thread are doing more to undermine second amendment rights than protecting them.
> 
> Please stop helping.



saying that is just a repeated lie.


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## RetiredGySgt (Dec 9, 2012)

boedicca said:


> What percent of guns in the U.S. are used in crimes each year?



What percent of LEGALLY purchased guns are used in crime? Our southern and northern borders as well as our coasts are open to any smuggler. Hell millions of people ( much bigger then a gun ) cross our borders illegally every year.


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## Quantum Windbag (Dec 9, 2012)

C_Clayton_Jones said:


> Most, if not all, of the conservatives subscribing to this thread are doing more to undermine Second Amendment rights than protecting them.
> 
> Please stop helping.



Have you ever explained why rights have limitations unless they don't?


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## Quantum Windbag (Dec 9, 2012)

boedicca said:


> What percent of guns in the U.S. are used in crimes each year?



What percent of cars are used in crimes?


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## PoliticalChic (Dec 9, 2012)

Wry Catcher said:


> TakeAStepBack said:
> 
> 
> > Keep and Bear Arms - Gun Owners Home Page - 2nd Amendment Supporters
> ...



According to the National Self Defense Survey conducted by Florida State University criminologists in 1994, the rate of Defensive Gun Uses can be projected nationwide to approximately 2.5 million per year -- one Defensive Gun Use every 13 seconds. 

Among 15.7% of gun defenders interviewed nationwide during The National Self Defense Survey, the defender believed that someone "almost certainly" would have died had the gun not been used for protection -- a life saved by a privately held gun about once every 1.3 minutes. (In another 14.2% cases, the defender believed someone "probably" would have died if the gun hadn't been used in defense.) 

In 83.5% of these successful gun defenses, the attacker either threatened or used force first -- disproving the myth that having a gun available for defense wouldn't make any difference. 

In 91.7% of these incidents the defensive use of a gun did not wound or kill the criminal attacker (and the gun defense wouldn't be called "newsworthy" by newspaper or TV news editors). In 64.2% of these gun-defense cases, the police learned of the defense, which means that the media could also find out and report on them if they chose to. 

In 73.4% of these gun-defense incidents, the attacker was a stranger to the intended victim. (Defenses against a family member or intimate were rare -- well under 10%.) This disproves the myth that a gun kept for defense will most likely be used against a family member or someone you love. 

In over half of these gun defense incidents, the defender was facing two or more attackers -- and three or more attackers in over a quarter of these cases. (No means of defense other than a firearm -- martial arts, pepper spray, or stun guns -- gives a potential victim a decent chance of getting away uninjured when facing multiple attackers.) 

In 79.7% of these gun defenses, the defender used a concealable handgun. A quarter of the gun defenses occured in places away from the defender's home.

Source: "Armed Resistance to Crime: The Prevalence and Nature of Self-Defense with a Gun," by Gary Kleck and Marc Gertz, in The Journal of Criminal Law & Criminology, Northwestern University School of Law, Volume 86, Number 1, Fall, 1995


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## TakeAStepBack (Dec 9, 2012)

Police: Clerk shoots suspect in Shelbyville gas station robbery - fox59.com

Police: Clerk shoots suspect in Shelbyville gas station robbery
The wounded suspect was transported to IU Health Methodist Hospital in unknown condition

By Braden Walker
11:59 p.m. EST, December 3, 2012

Shelbyville, Ind.

A gas station attendant shoots one suspect during an attempted robbery in Shelbyville, Ind.

Shelbyville Police Lt. Michael Turner told Fox59 two men tried to take control of an employee during a robbery attempt around 9:20 p.m. Monday.

It happened at the Bonded CountryMark station located in the 200 block of East Broadway St.

During the struggle, the attendant was able to locate a gun and fire and injure one of the two suspects.

Both suspects ran away from the gas station after the attempted robbery.


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## Politico (Dec 9, 2012)

Arthur I've been reading your dribble. How about this. If you don't like guns don't buy one.


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## PoliticalChic (Dec 9, 2012)

C_Clayton_Jones said:


> Most, if not all, of the conservatives subscribing to this thread are doing more to undermine Second Amendment rights than protecting them.
> 
> Please stop helping.




Another brilliant, pity post from claypot.

Here, let me offer one that packs almost as much punch:

Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana.


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## Two Thumbs (Dec 9, 2012)

Why do liberals hate freedom?


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## Wry Catcher (Dec 9, 2012)

The gun nuts are out in force.


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## bigrebnc1775 (Dec 9, 2012)

Wry Catcher said:


> The gun nuts are out in force.



As long as gun grabbers like you are out we'll stay.


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## TakeAStepBack (Dec 9, 2012)

Shotgun robber no match for victim with handgun - 12 News KBMT and K-JAC. News, Weather and Sports for SE Texas

Shotgun robber no match for victim with handgun

Posted: Aug 11, 2012 10:35 AM EDT
By David Ingram - email

Police say an armed robber got more than he bargained for Friday night when he targeted the wrong victim.

Just after 10 p.m. a 36-year-old man was confronted by a robber with a shotgun in the parking lot of the Walgreens located in the 3600 block of College.  The man said the robber held the shotgun to his head and demanded money.

The man, a concealed handgun license holder, was able to get his handgun and fired one shot at the would-be robber. The robber dropped his shotgun and took off running fleeing south behind the store. The intended victim was not injured during this confrontation and he did not lose any property.

Patrol Officers set up a perimeter and with the assistance of our K-9 Unit began to search for the robber. An officer saw a man hiding behind a business near the area of Interstate 10 and Corley. The man matched the description of the robber.  Police say the man also had a gunshot wound to his hip.

The original victim positively identified this man as the robber.

Beaumont EMS took the injured suspect to Christus Hospital St. Elizabeth for treatment. Officers then took him to the county jail.  He has been charged with aggravated robbery as well as two outstanding warrants for burglary of a habitation and a pending warrant for a previous unrelated aggravated robbery.

Officers also found a vehicle near the scene of the robbery that had been reported stolen.


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## RetiredGySgt (Dec 9, 2012)

Wry Catcher said:


> The gun nuts are out in force.



You asked for examples where guns were successfully used to defend and then criticize those posts, GO FIGURE.


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## TakeAStepBack (Dec 9, 2012)

Tards will Tard.


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## TakeAStepBack (Dec 9, 2012)

West Knoxville man shoots suspect during home invasion

West Knoxville man shoots suspect during home invasion

KNOXVILLE (WATE) - A West Knoxville man shot a suspect in the chest during a home invasion Friday morning.

Homeowner Gary Berthiaume, 59, of Lance Drive, told police he was sitting on his back porch when he noticed a man peering through the window in his front door.

Berthiaume went inside his house to get a handgun, but when he opened the door, two suspects rushed in and attacked him, forcing him back into a foyer area.

He then fired one shot, striking one of the suspects in the upper chest. Both suspects then fled the scene.

Berthiaume was taken to University of Tennessee Medical Center for minor injuries.

Several minutes later, a man with a gunshot wound to the upper chest arrived at Fort Sanders Regional Medical Center.


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## jtpr312 (Dec 9, 2012)

60,000,0000 Soviet citizens would tell you all about how it is to live under a govt, in a nation, where the civilian population is unarmed....................if they had not been executed by their masters, who where the only ones that where allowed to own guns.  So when you get to number 60,000,001, drop me an e0mail, I'll start replying to your asinine post then.


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## TakeAStepBack (Dec 9, 2012)

Chalk Up Another One for Gun Owners - Blogcritics Politics

Last Thursday in Salt Lake City, Utah, a gun toting citizen single-handedly ended the stabbing spree of a knife wielding maniac. The incident happened in a grocery store in the downtown area of the city. The suspect apparently purchased a knife in the store and used it as a weapon to stab two people in the foyer of the store. Before he could find a third victim, the man with the concealed gun pulled it on him and told him to drop his weapon or he would shoot him. The assailant dropped the knife and the grocery store&#8217;s employees restrained him until the police arrived.

By all accounts the gun toting citizen prevented what could have been widespread carnage. In fact, Salt Lake City Police Department Lt. Brian Purvis said, "This was a volatile situation that could have gotten worse. We can only assume from what we saw it could have gotten worse. He was definitely in the right place at the right time."

Bravo for the Second Amendment! The reason injuries were prevented and lives saved is that as Americans we have the ability to defend ourselves and others through the Second Amendment right to own guns. You see, it is impossible for the police to be everywhere at all times protecting us from bad guys. Given that we are supposedly still a free society, why would we want cops to be present on every street corner anyway?


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## Arthur (Dec 9, 2012)

I don't like the fact that it's unacceptable to comment on gun culture.


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## CrusaderFrank (Dec 9, 2012)

Arthur said:


> I don't like the fact that it's unacceptable to comment on gun culture.



Who stopped you from commenting, you fucking retard?


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## Wry Catcher (Dec 9, 2012)

bigrebnc1775 said:


> Wry Catcher said:
> 
> 
> > The gun nuts are out in force.
> ...



I'm not a gun grabber.  I simply believe too many innocent people die every year as a result of gun violence, and, anyone who wants to own, possess, or have in their custody and control a firearm should be properly trained and licensed.  That said license should be revocable for cause, and the penalty for an unlicensed person owning or having one in their custody should be severe.

None of that infringes on the right to own and bear arms.  Unless you feel that revocation of the license for crimes of violence, drug and alcohol crimes and psychiatric hospitalizations is an infringement.

Do you?


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## westwall (Dec 9, 2012)

Arthur said:


> On national television, you can talk about the sordid details of your sex life, the depth of your religious piety or your belief that an organization that no longer exists, Acorn, stole the 2012 presidential election  a fantasy held by half of Republicans. You can call climate change a hoax, you can say the moon landing never happened, you can even praise Alex Rodriguez, though you shouldnt.
> 
> But you cannot talk about the 300 million or more guns circulating in private hands in the United States. The most armed society in the world, ranked first among 179 nations in the rate of gun ownership, had 9,146 gun homicides in 2009. The same year, Canada had 173. But dont bring that up.
> 
> ...







Your 12 times number is total horse crap.  A number made up out of whole cloth with no basis in reality.

That aside let's look at the number shall we?

300,000,000 guns (that are known of, there are many unknown) kill around 15,000 people.
                           That's murders, cops killing bad guys and good guys killing bad guys.

62,000,000 cars kill over 40,000 per year.  That includes 25,000 killed by drunk drivers.

800,000 DOCTORS kill over 100,000 people per year due to malpractice, mis-diagnosis,     drug prescription mistakes and simple errors.

So, if we just look at the numbers you're FAR more likely to die at the hands of a doctor than a bad guy with a gun.  And, of the 13,000 murders that occur, the vast majority are bad guys killing bad guys in gang related homicides.


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## westwall (Dec 9, 2012)

Arthur said:


> I don't like the fact that it's unacceptable to comment on gun culture.






You can comment all you like.  Just use accurate statistics.  Also look at the bad guys commiting the vast majority of violent crime.  8% of the criminal population commits 80% of the violent crime.  Why do you insist on letting them out to commit more crime all the time?


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## westwall (Dec 9, 2012)

Wry Catcher said:


> bigrebnc1775 said:
> 
> 
> > Wry Catcher said:
> ...







The second you require a license it is no longer a right.  The second a license is required, the ability of the government to regulate the cost of the license to a level unatainable by the lower classes is the next step.  I guess simple English is not one of your strongpoints...or you really are a gungrabber but don't want to admit it and think everyone is stupid and can't understand what you're saying.

Remember, when guns are outlawed only the RICH will have guns.  You want to talk about class warfare, just imagine when the wealthy get to shoot you and you don't get to shoot them back.


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## bigrebnc1775 (Dec 10, 2012)

Wry Catcher said:


> bigrebnc1775 said:
> 
> 
> > Wry Catcher said:
> ...



Many at one time felt race was also a requirement to gun ownership why do you support a racist agenda?


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## TakeAStepBack (Dec 10, 2012)

Gas station clerks fatally shoot armed robber « The Chronicle-Telegram - Lorain County's leading news source

December 10th, 2012 

CINCINNATI &#8212; Authorities in southwest Ohio say two gas station workers pulled guns and fatally shot an armed robber.

The Cincinnati Enquirer reports it happened early today at a Sunoco station north of the city.

The workers, who haven&#8217;t been identified, said the robber came in at around 12:30 a.m., pointed a gun at them and demanded money.

The clerks told police the suspect &#8212; believed to be in his teens &#8212; had already come around the counter and taken cash when they fired a handgun and shotgun at him in self-defense.

The names of the clerks haven&#8217;t been released. No charges have been filed, but police say their will consult the county prosecutor&#8217;s office.


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## Warrior102 (Dec 10, 2012)

Wry Catcher said:


> Today I've begun a list of incidents of gun violence,



Cars kill people too, assfucker


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## CrusaderFrank (Dec 10, 2012)

Guns killed Brian Terry, Chris Stevens and those other guys Progressives swept under the rug


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## Arthur (Dec 10, 2012)

CrusaderFrank said:


> Arthur said:
> 
> 
> > I don't like the fact that it's unacceptable to comment on gun culture.
> ...



Look at the flack Bob Costas has gotten for his comment.


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## martybegan (Dec 10, 2012)

Arthur said:


> CrusaderFrank said:
> 
> 
> > Arthur said:
> ...



Flack should be expected when you take any position, by those who disagree with it. If he was that confident in his position he should have had no problem defending it.

Bob needs to nut up, or shut up.


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## Arthur (Dec 10, 2012)

Exactly my point.  You're trying to shut Costas up.


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## 007 (Dec 10, 2012)

Wry Catcher said:


> Today I've begun a list...


List this... FUCK OFF.


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## Mr. H. (Dec 10, 2012)

CrusaderFrank said:


> Here's what happens when Progressives rule over unarmed citizens



Are those just arm bones, or all the bones?


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## martybegan (Dec 10, 2012)

Arthur said:


> Exactly my point.  You're trying to shut Costas up.



How? I am not calling for a boycott of him, I have written no letters asking for his firing. My position is if he can't defend his position adequately he should shut up ON HIS OWN.

Whats stopping him from telling everyone to flip off?


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## Papageorgio (Dec 10, 2012)

Arthur said:


> On national television, you can talk about the sordid details of your sex life, the depth of your religious piety or your belief that an organization that no longer exists, Acorn, stole the 2012 presidential election  a fantasy held by half of Republicans. You can call climate change a hoax, you can say the moon landing never happened, you can even praise Alex Rodriguez, though you shouldnt.
> 
> But you cannot talk about the 300 million or more guns circulating in private hands in the United States. The most armed society in the world, ranked first among 179 nations in the rate of gun ownership, had 9,146 gun homicides in 2009. The same year, Canada had 173. But dont bring that up.
> 
> ...



First off a fantasy held by more than 50% of democrats is Bush stole 2000 and 2004 elections. Don't bring up the difference in population in Canada and the United States. Not sure how the NY Yankees and judging their players comes into anything. 

Also where do you find 4% of all emergency room visits are gunshot wounds?

Ohhhh....wait you are just quoting an article and have no original thought and don't even look into the claims by the real person that wrote the story.

You are just a parrot.


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## Papageorgio (Dec 10, 2012)

Arthur said:


> CrusaderFrank said:
> 
> 
> > Arthur said:
> ...



Big deal! Look at the flack others get for saying they believe in God, or that Obama wasn't born in the US and on and on. You make a strong comment, with strong opinions and you get strong responses. 

Costas got to voice his opinion, why shouldn't others be allowed the same right?


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## Papageorgio (Dec 10, 2012)

martybegan said:


> Arthur said:
> 
> 
> > Exactly my point.  You're trying to shut Costas up.
> ...



Progressive somehow believe only their free speech is important not those who disagree.


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## Wry Catcher (Dec 10, 2012)

Woman celebrating daughter's birthday, man sitting in car slain in separate Oakland shootings - ContraCostaTimes.com

http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/...cle_840d8bf9-4dbd-5e7b-9452-fed5739017b8.html


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## Wry Catcher (Dec 10, 2012)

Man, woman gravely shot in Overtown - Downtown/Biscayne Corridor - MiamiHerald.com

http://blogs.seattletimes.com/today/2012/12/teen-shot-in-olympia-thwarting-robber/


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## Spoonman (Dec 10, 2012)

boedicca said:


> What percent of guns in the U.S. are used in crimes each year?



better yet, what percent of legally owned guns in the US are used in crimes


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## Spoonman (Dec 10, 2012)

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The Criminologist Whose Self-Defense Research Destroyed Gun Control Arguments
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When gun rights supporters make their case against gun control in term papers, op-ed newspaper columns, Internet message board postings and emails to friends and colleagues, as often as not they&#8217;ll include numbers to support their argument that are the result of studies conducted by Dr. Gary Kleck. How did a man who was not a supporter of gun rights or gun owners&#8217; causes come to be one of their biggest advocates?

Gary Kleck, Criminologist

Born in Lombard, Ill., in 1951, Kleck received his B.A. from the University of Illinois in 1973. By 1979, he had received his Ph.D. in Sociology from the University of Illinois in Urbana. He has spent his entire career at Florida State University&#8217;s School of Criminology, beginning as an instructor and eventually becoming a professor at the College of Criminology and Criminal Justice in 1991.

Dr. Gary Kleck - The Criminologist Whose Self-Defense Research Destroyed Gun Control Arguments


----------



## Wry Catcher (Dec 10, 2012)

Spoonman said:


> boedicca said:
> 
> 
> > What percent of guns in the U.S. are used in crimes each year?
> ...



Is there a point to this question?  

As a law abiding, sober and responsible gun owner I have no objection to my state requiring I take regular gun safety training and be licensed for gun ownership.


----------



## SFC Ollie (Dec 10, 2012)

bigrebnc1775 said:


> Arthur said:
> 
> 
> > Firearm-related violence vastly increases expenditures for health care, services for the disabled, insurance, and our criminal justice system," writes Dr. Steven Lippmann of University of Louisville School of Medicine, and colleagues. "The bills are paid by taxpayers and those who buy insurance."
> ...



Yep......


----------



## Arthur (Dec 10, 2012)

No bull, just a difference of opinion.


----------



## Crackerjack (Dec 10, 2012)

Wry Catcher said:


> Today I've begun a list of incidents of gun violence ...


Anecdotal evidence riddled with confirmation bias.  In other words: FAIL.

I guess you never went over logical fallacies in this "education" of yours?  You should have sent in the extra five box tops for that course.


----------



## Wry Catcher (Dec 10, 2012)

Crackerjack said:


> Wry Catcher said:
> 
> 
> > Today I've begun a list of incidents of gun violence ...
> ...



Actually I still have the text, COPI, Into to Logic, 3rd Edition.

Seems a logical inference when a body is found with a bullet hole that gun violence played a role.  I presume the inference you've made in re my thread is based on emotion, not logic. and is a very weak red herring.


----------



## Arthur (Dec 10, 2012)

What do you want out of the topic, Wry?


----------



## Crackerjack (Dec 10, 2012)

Wry Catcher said:


> Crackerjack said:
> 
> 
> > Wry Catcher said:
> ...




Yeah, I can tell you didn't waste too much time reading it.

While you're Googling "anecdotal evidence" and "confirmation bias," also look up "moving the goalposts."


----------



## saveliberty (Dec 10, 2012)

So you have a lot of crimnals reporting failed crimes due to a gun held by the intended victim?  

I suppose aliens are real because I failed to report NOT seeing one each day of my life.


----------



## Crackerjack (Dec 10, 2012)

saveliberty said:


> So you have a lot of crimnals reporting failed crimes due to a gun held by the intended victim?
> 
> I suppose aliens are real because I failed to report NOT seeing one each day of my life.


Sssshhh ... don't spoil his confirmation bias fail.


----------



## C_Clayton_Jones (Dec 10, 2012)

Wry Catcher said:


> Spoonman said:
> 
> 
> > boedicca said:
> ...



There are also law abiding, sober, and responsible gun owners who would object, and justifiably so. 

There is no evidence that training or licensing requirements would decrease the number of accidental shooting deaths or decrease gun crimes or violence. 

It could be argued that such requirements would manifest an undue burden to ones exercising of his Second Amendment rights, manifest an unwarranted expansion of the power of the state, and manifest a presumption of guilt with regard to gun ownership, in that anyone who wishes to own a gun must be held suspect as a potential criminal. 

As with abortion, gun violence is a complex and difficult issue, and as with abortion, the solution is not more laws. 

Your goal is admirable and desirable, and indeed shared by gun owners as well, you must, however, seek a different route to obtain that goal, one not potentially offensive to the Constitution.


----------



## Wry Catcher (Dec 10, 2012)

Arthur said:


> What do you want out of the topic, Wry?



A counterpoint to NRA propaganda repeated by gun nuts on this message board and the gun lobby working with Republicans to inject fear (THEY will take your guns away) every election cycle.

Notice the Apples and Oranges comparison with vehicle deaths, see:

US road safety: Deaths lowest in more than 60 years. How we got there - Yahoo! News

Are guns safer today then they were 60 years ago?


----------



## Arthur (Dec 10, 2012)

Wry Catcher said:


> Arthur said:
> 
> 
> > What do you want out of the topic, Wry?
> ...



OK, so it's like a commercial to counter the NRA?

Good luck with that.  They've got the guns and we're outnumbered!


----------



## saveliberty (Dec 10, 2012)

More like an attempt to withhold a Constitutional right through logical fallacy.


----------



## Arthur (Dec 10, 2012)

My, you love to throw things out of left field.


----------



## Crackerjack (Dec 10, 2012)

Wry Catcher said:


> Are guns safer today then they were 60 years ago?


So you're comparing firearms with automobiles ... why??

Keep on battling statistics with anecdote, Don Quixote.


----------



## saveliberty (Dec 10, 2012)

Arthur said:


> My, you love to throw things out of left field.



Since when is the Constitution and the right to bear arms disconnected?


----------



## Arthur (Dec 10, 2012)

saveliberty said:


> Arthur said:
> 
> 
> > My, you love to throw things out of left field.
> ...



Non-sequitur.  Look it up.


----------



## Crackerjack (Dec 10, 2012)

Arthur said:


> OK, so it's like a commercial to counter the NRA?
> 
> Good luck with that.  They've got the guns and we're outnumbered!


For what it's worth, I resigned my membership in October after they endorsed the gun-grabber Romney.  Gun Owners of America is far superior.


----------



## saveliberty (Dec 10, 2012)

Arthur said:


> saveliberty said:
> 
> 
> > Arthur said:
> ...



I understand what you did.  Maybe if you read the Constitution.


----------



## Arthur (Dec 10, 2012)

I'd love to see all the gun nuts live in the same area.


----------



## Arthur (Dec 10, 2012)

saveliberty said:


> Arthur said:
> 
> 
> > saveliberty said:
> ...



You just want to argue.  I don't.  I have no problem with the constitutional right to bear arms.

We live in a gun culture.  That's the way it is.


----------



## saveliberty (Dec 10, 2012)

Arthur said:


> saveliberty said:
> 
> 
> > Arthur said:
> ...



I posted before you.  That makes you the argumentative one.  Our democratic republic is protected by a second amendment.  How you interpret that to be a gun culture is funny.


----------



## Arthur (Dec 10, 2012)

We happen to be living in a time when citizens think they have to all own guns and be amateur police.

It's a gun culture.

The arms industry in the US is ENORMOUS.  The NRA and other gun lobbies are powerful.

Gun nuts are taking over America.


----------



## westwall (Dec 10, 2012)

Arthur said:


> No bull, just a difference of opinion.








No, when you must resort to falsified data it is no longer opinion...it is propaganda.


----------



## westwall (Dec 10, 2012)

Wry Catcher said:


> Crackerjack said:
> 
> 
> > Wry Catcher said:
> ...








99% of your arguments are based on emotion and no facts.


----------



## Crackerjack (Dec 10, 2012)

Arthur said:


> We happen to be living in a time when citizens think they have to all own guns and be amateur police.
> 
> It's a gun culture.
> 
> ...


Treat firearms like liberals treat abortions -- don't like em?  Don't get one.  

If you prefer to live at the whim of others, be my guest.  However, don't expect me to join you in that servitude.


----------



## Crackerjack (Dec 10, 2012)

westwall said:


> Wry Catcher said:
> 
> 
> > Crackerjack said:
> ...


It's cute how insecure he is over his education, isn't it?


----------



## Arthur (Dec 10, 2012)

100 million people in this country own at least one gun.  I wish they'd all move to Texas.


----------



## saveliberty (Dec 10, 2012)

Arthur said:


> We happen to be living in a time when citizens think they have to all own guns and be amateur police.
> 
> It's a gun culture.
> 
> ...



Am I a gun nut?


----------



## Arthur (Dec 10, 2012)

saveliberty said:


> Arthur said:
> 
> 
> > We happen to be living in a time when citizens think they have to all own guns and be amateur police.
> ...



I have no idea.  I don't know you from Adam.


----------



## westwall (Dec 10, 2012)

Wry Catcher said:


> Arthur said:
> 
> 
> > What do you want out of the topic, Wry?
> ...






Yes they are.  Accidental deaths are sinking ever lower.  Firearms themselves are so safe that accidental shootings are exceptionally rare, it is almost allways a negligence issue and training is reducing that problem ever lower.

Three strikes laws are slowly consigning the most violent offenders to life in prison without parole which is also having a major impact on gun violence as the vast majority of murders are bad guys killing bad guys in gang or other criminal endeavors.

So yeah guns are much safer and we are finally putting the true scumbags away forever which is haveing a major effect on violent crime rates.  Please note, no gun law has EVER decreased the crime rate in the area affected.  Increased the crime rates...but never decreased them.


----------



## saveliberty (Dec 10, 2012)

Arthur said:


> saveliberty said:
> 
> 
> > Arthur said:
> ...



I support the second amendment and responsible gun ownership.  Does that help categorize me?


----------



## westwall (Dec 10, 2012)

Arthur said:


> My, you love to throw things out of left field.







Yes, facts are such inconvenient things.


----------



## westwall (Dec 10, 2012)

Arthur said:


> I'd love to see all the gun nuts live in the same area.







Here's a little experiment for you.  Put a big sign in your window that proclaims you hate guns and don't have any in the house.


----------



## Arthur (Dec 10, 2012)

What gives with you folks?  Can't you have a conversation about a topic where we don't agree?


----------



## westwall (Dec 10, 2012)

Arthur said:


> We happen to be living in a time when citizens think they have to all own guns and be amateur police.
> 
> It's a gun culture.
> 
> ...








  You're too funny.  S&W made something like 20 million dollars last year...yeah they're SOOOOOO powerful... what a silly person you are.


----------



## Arthur (Dec 10, 2012)

westwall said:


> Arthur said:
> 
> 
> > I'd love to see all the gun nuts live in the same area.
> ...


Aggressive post.


----------



## westwall (Dec 10, 2012)

Arthur said:


> 100 million people in this country own at least one gun.  I wish they'd all move to Texas.






More than that bucko.  I think virtually every houshold in North Dakota owns at least one and they have the lowest rate of crime in the nation.  Kind of screws the pooch for your argument no?


----------



## saveliberty (Dec 10, 2012)

Arthur said:


> What gives with you folks?  Can't you have a conversation about a topic where we don't agree?



You're allowed to agree with us.  When you don't its called a disagreement.


----------



## Crackerjack (Dec 10, 2012)

Arthur said:


> westwall said:
> 
> 
> > Arthur said:
> ...


I can definitely see why firearms bother you.

I promise the most dangerous thing I have within reach right now is a KA-BAR so relax.


----------



## slackjawed (Dec 10, 2012)

Guns are simply part of darwins theory of natural selection. 



Sent from my SCH-I500 using Tapatalk


----------



## Arthur (Dec 10, 2012)

I look at it like this.  We can agree to disagree.

Life is too short.  I don't get all hot and bothered about these kinds of discussions.  I say my peace and I go.


----------



## westwall (Dec 10, 2012)

Arthur said:


> westwall said:
> 
> 
> > Arthur said:
> ...








  No just pointing out you benefit from the fact that bad guys don't know who's armed and who's not.  Remove all doubt and see how fast your home gets burgled or worse.  And when the cops take a few minutes to get you, after the crime has been committed, you can reflect on the realities of a gun free world.


----------



## Arthur (Dec 10, 2012)

Personally?  I don't benefit from every tom dick and harry owning a gun.  It doesn't make my country safer.


----------



## saveliberty (Dec 10, 2012)

Arthur said:


> I look at it like this.  We can agree to disagree.
> 
> Life is too short.  I don't get all hot and bothered about these kinds of discussions.  I say my peace and I go.



That is called free speech and is protected by of all things, guns.


----------



## westwall (Dec 10, 2012)

Arthur said:


> I look at it like this.  We can agree to disagree.
> 
> Life is too short.  I don't get all hot and bothered about these kinds of discussions.  I say my peace and I go.






I agree, you may certainly choose to not own a gun.  However, you may not choose for ME!  That's the issue.


----------



## westwall (Dec 10, 2012)

Arthur said:


> Personally?  I don't benefit from every tom dick and harry owning a gun.  It doesn't make my country safer.







Actually scientific studies have PROVEN you do.  Otherwise feel free to conduct the experiment I suggested and let us know how that turns out for you.


----------



## Arthur (Dec 10, 2012)

Hey westie.  I see it differently.

Can you live with that?


----------



## Wry Catcher (Dec 10, 2012)

Crackerjack said:


> Wry Catcher said:
> 
> 
> > Are guns safer today then they were 60 years ago?
> ...



Please read some of the posts from the gun nuts above, then _you may_ understand why the car/safety link.

BTW, newspaper articles are anecdotal (generally based on personal observation); as for statistics, it pays to remember, "there are liars, damn liars and statistics".


----------



## Arthur (Dec 10, 2012)

Wry, I can't believe you hang out with these guys day after day.  WTF?

I've been told I have a mean sling shot.


----------



## saveliberty (Dec 10, 2012)

Arthur said:


> Wry, I can't believe you hang out with these guys day after day.  WTF?
> 
> I've been told I have a mean sling shot.



Our ability to tolerate stupid is unparalleled in the known universe.


----------



## bigrebnc1775 (Dec 10, 2012)

Arthur said:


> Personally?  I don't benefit from every tom dick and harry owning a gun.  It doesn't make my country safer.



OH but yes it does make the country safer, 2009 gun sales went up crime came down.


----------



## Arthur (Dec 10, 2012)

You must be right.


----------



## Arthur (Dec 10, 2012)

saveliberty said:


> Arthur said:
> 
> 
> > Wry, I can't believe you hang out with these guys day after day.  WTF?
> ...



Hey chump, I'd match my sling shot to your gun anytime.


----------



## bigrebnc1775 (Dec 10, 2012)

Arthur said:


> westwall said:
> 
> 
> > Arthur said:
> ...



If you were my neighbor this would be the sign you would see everyday in my yard


----------



## saveliberty (Dec 10, 2012)

Arthur said:


> saveliberty said:
> 
> 
> > Arthur said:
> ...



I was referring to Wry.  Please show where I said I owned a gun.


----------



## Arthur (Dec 10, 2012)

saveliberty said:


> Arthur said:
> 
> 
> > saveliberty said:
> ...



Lighten up, bubba.  I don't know anyone here.  My friends are gone.


----------



## boedicca (Dec 10, 2012)

Two Thumbs said:


> Why do liberals hate freedom?





I'm reminded of a news story a couple of years ago about a wheelchair ridden Very Old Lady who deterred a robber by shooting him with her gun.  When asked by a reporter what she was going to do in the future, she responded:  "I'm going to get a bigger gun."

Go Granny Go.


----------



## saveliberty (Dec 10, 2012)

Arthur said:


> saveliberty said:
> 
> 
> > Arthur said:
> ...



So now the word please is aggressive?  Seems like your being derogatory toward guys named Bubba.


----------



## Arthur (Dec 10, 2012)

saveliberty said:


> Arthur said:
> 
> 
> > saveliberty said:
> ...



LOL.  That cracked me up.  You may be ok.


----------



## Wry Catcher (Dec 10, 2012)

Arthur said:


> Wry, I can't believe you hang out with these guys day after day.  WTF?
> 
> I've been told I have a mean sling shot.



I'm retired.  They all think I'm a far left liberal which amuses me.  I'm a navy vet and retired after a 32 year law enforcement career; a CAL grad and a Democrat.  I've seen the results of gun violence and I sat on a regional death review board.  All of which give me a perspective on many issues which are posted here.  I like to share what I've learned with those who share what they've heard from Limbaugh and Hannity and on Fox and Friends.


----------



## Arthur (Dec 10, 2012)

Wry Catcher said:


> Arthur said:
> 
> 
> > Wry, I can't believe you hang out with these guys day after day.  WTF?
> ...



You have my complete respect.  Thank you for your service, and your unique position.


----------



## Wry Catcher (Dec 10, 2012)

saveliberty said:


> More like an attempt to withhold a Constitutional right through logical fallacy.



That's silly.


----------



## Arthur (Dec 10, 2012)

Wry Catcher said:


> saveliberty said:
> 
> 
> > More like an attempt to withhold a Constitutional right through logical fallacy.
> ...



constitution fanatics are pretty silly.


----------



## bigrebnc1775 (Dec 10, 2012)

Arthur said:


> Wry Catcher said:
> 
> 
> > saveliberty said:
> ...



WTF Troll?
What's wrong with defending the constitution?


----------



## Arthur (Dec 10, 2012)

The Constitution is.  It doesn't need defending.


----------



## bigrebnc1775 (Dec 10, 2012)

Arthur said:


> The Constitution is.  It doesn't need defending.



The patriot act? obama'
s indefinite detention NDAA 2012 
NO DUE PROCESS
And yes the second amendment that liberals would love to see gutted.
ALL of those need defending and we have the tool to do it.


----------



## Arthur (Dec 10, 2012)

You think you're bigger because you own a gun?


----------



## bigrebnc1775 (Dec 10, 2012)

Arthur said:


> You think you're bigger because you own a gun?


Nope I'm bigger because I'm 6'7" at 280lbs


----------



## Wry Catcher (Dec 11, 2012)

bigrebnc1775 said:


> Arthur said:
> 
> 
> > Wry Catcher said:
> ...



There is nothing wrong with defending the Constitution, in fact three times I've sworn to do so as have all vets and law enforcement deputies/officers/agents.  What I find silly is the number of posters who believe they understand all the nuances and ambiguities within this amazing document.


----------



## westwall (Dec 11, 2012)

Arthur said:


> Hey westie.  I see it differently.
> 
> Can you live with that?







Of course.  I do every single day.  I could care less what you wish to do with your life.  I draw the line at when you attempt to dictate to me what I should do with mine.

Verstehen sie?


----------



## westwall (Dec 11, 2012)

Arthur said:


> saveliberty said:
> 
> 
> > Arthur said:
> ...






I admire your hutzpah but question your sanity


----------



## westwall (Dec 11, 2012)

Wry Catcher said:


> Arthur said:
> 
> 
> > Wry, I can't believe you hang out with these guys day after day.  WTF?
> ...







I have many friends in law enforcement in the bay area.  Glen Duren is a very good friend of many decades as is Ovid Holmes and quite a few Richmond P.D. officers.  I also reach across the Bay and have many now retired friends who were on the SFPD.  

I also count many Superior Court judges as friends...most are retired but Chris Moruza and I get together frequently.  I am a grad of Caltech with a PhD. in Geology and I will be happy to discuss criminology any day of the week.


----------



## westwall (Dec 11, 2012)

Arthur said:


> The Constitution is.  It doesn't need defending.







Of course it does.  The Bill of Rights are 9 limitations on what government can do and one final option.


----------



## Crackerjack (Dec 11, 2012)

Wry Catcher said:


> Crackerjack said:
> 
> 
> > Wry Catcher said:
> ...


 Break it down for me, genius.



Wry Catcher said:


> BTW, newspaper articles are anecdotal (generally based on personal observation); as for statistics, it pays to remember, "there are liars, damn liars and statistics".


So that's why you would trust the incredibly small and intentionally skewed numbers from anecdote over systematically collected statistics based upon a thought-terminating cliché?  I'm not at all surprised.


----------



## Arthur (Dec 11, 2012)

westwall said:


> Arthur said:
> 
> 
> > Hey westie.  I see it differently.
> ...



What makes you think I'm dictating what you should do with your life?


----------



## Arthur (Dec 11, 2012)

westwall said:


> Arthur said:
> 
> 
> > saveliberty said:
> ...



It's a joke, bud.


----------



## saveliberty (Dec 11, 2012)

Arthur said:


> Wry Catcher said:
> 
> 
> > saveliberty said:
> ...



Constitution starts with a capital.  So, you're working on troll status or you just showed up as one to begin with?


----------



## Arthur (Dec 11, 2012)

saveliberty said:


> Arthur said:
> 
> 
> > Wry Catcher said:
> ...



That would be overreaction to not capitalizing Constitution.  Do you want to discuss the topic or correct my spelling?

Some here are a part of gun culture and some are not.  Are you suggesting that those of us who don't own guns have no right to comment on gun culture?  47% of Americans own guns, which means 53% of us don't.

Here's a Time photo essay:

http://www.time.com/time/photogallery/0,29307,1886076,00.html


----------



## saveliberty (Dec 11, 2012)

Arthur said:


> saveliberty said:
> 
> 
> > Arthur said:
> ...



Well the spelling correction seems to be working, so there's that.

If you wish to promote the flawed logic of Wry that is your choice.  If you want to express your feelings about guns, feel free to find someone that cares.  If you want to discuss the logic of a well armed populous we can do that.


----------



## Crackerjack (Dec 11, 2012)

saveliberty said:


> Arthur said:
> 
> 
> > Wry Catcher said:
> ...


I think he's just incredibly naïve.  Not surprising that he admires a pretentious asshole like WC.

Although the '09 sign-up date and low post count does raise red flags.


----------



## Arthur (Dec 11, 2012)

A 1997 American Journal of Public Health study showed that family members that had a history of buying a handgun from a licensed dealer were twice as likely to die in a suicide or homicide as were persons similarly situated who had no such family history of gun purchase. This increased risk persisted for more than five years after the handgun was purchased.

One study, published in The New England Journal of Medicine, found that having a gun in
the home made it nearly three times more likely that someone in the family will be killed. This risk is particularly high for women, who are more likely to be killed by a spouse, intimate acquaintance, or close relative. An Archives of Internal Medicine study found that, with one or more guns in the home, the risk of suicide among women increased nearly five times and the risk of homicide increased more than three times.
http://www.consumerfed.org/pdfs/self_defense.pdf

If having a view opposite to yours and putting a link to a story in that supports my position is "trolling", then I'm a "troll".

It appears the only "liberty" you're interested in "saving" is your own, pussy cat.


----------



## Crackerjack (Dec 11, 2012)

Arthur said:


> A 1997 American Journal of Public Health study showed that family members that had a history of buying a handgun from a licensed dealer were twice as likely to die in a suicide or homicide as were persons similarly situated who had no such family history of gun purchase. This increased risk persisted for more than five years after the handgun was purchased.
> 
> One study, published in The New England Journal of Medicine, found that having a gun in
> the home made it nearly three times more likely that someone in the family will be killed. This risk is particularly high for women, who are more likely to be killed by a spouse, intimate acquaintance, or close relative. An Archives of Internal Medicine study found that, with one or more guns in the home, the risk of suicide among women increased nearly five times and the risk of homicide increased more than three times.
> ...


So don't own a firearm.  Problem solved!


----------



## Arthur (Dec 11, 2012)

Crackerjack said:


> Arthur said:
> 
> 
> > A 1997 American Journal of Public Health study showed that family members that had a history of buying a handgun from a licensed dealer were twice as likely to die in a suicide or homicide as were persons similarly situated who had no such family history of gun purchase. This increased risk persisted for more than five years after the handgun was purchased.
> ...



It's not a problem for me to express my position.  It appears more a problem to you.  You want to shut 53% of Americans up.

I'm not planning on sealing my lips because you don't like what I have to say.

You complain about President Obama somehow trumping on your gun rights when truth is that gun sales have boomed in this President's term so far.


----------



## Crackerjack (Dec 11, 2012)

Arthur said:


> Crackerjack said:
> 
> 
> > Arthur said:
> ...


Where did I say any of that?  Give me a post number.


----------



## Arthur (Dec 11, 2012)

Crackerjack said:


> Arthur said:
> 
> 
> > Crackerjack said:
> ...



The "you" in my statement is a collective you, not personal to YOU.

"You" as in "your side" of the fence.

If you want to prosper, gun culture warriors.  Buy stock in a firearms company.


----------



## Crackerjack (Dec 11, 2012)

Arthur said:


> Crackerjack said:
> 
> 
> > Arthur said:
> ...


Whatever collective that is, I'm not part of it.


----------



## Arthur (Dec 11, 2012)

Crackerjack said:


> Arthur said:
> 
> 
> > Crackerjack said:
> ...



Sure you are.  You're a big proponent of gun culture.


----------



## westwall (Dec 11, 2012)

Arthur said:


> westwall said:
> 
> 
> > Arthur said:
> ...







When you wish to do away with something that I like that* does* affect my life.


----------



## westwall (Dec 11, 2012)

Arthur said:


> westwall said:
> 
> 
> > Arthur said:
> ...







That's why I'm laughing, dude.


----------



## Crackerjack (Dec 11, 2012)

Arthur said:


> Crackerjack said:
> 
> 
> > Arthur said:
> ...


That does not mean I adopt by proxy all statements you have attributed to that group.


----------



## westwall (Dec 11, 2012)

Arthur said:


> saveliberty said:
> 
> 
> > Arthur said:
> ...






When your opinion is derived almsot wholly from a biased news source, yes we pay scant attention to your opinion as it is woefully uninformed.  But you have every right to make a fool of yourself by voicing your uninformed opinion.


----------



## saveliberty (Dec 11, 2012)

Arthur said:


> A 1997 American Journal of Public Health study showed that family members that had a history of buying a handgun from a licensed dealer were twice as likely to die in a suicide or homicide as were persons similarly situated who had no such family history of gun purchase. This increased risk persisted for more than five years after the handgun was purchased.
> 
> One study, published in The New England Journal of Medicine, found that having a gun in
> the home made it nearly three times more likely that someone in the family will be killed. This risk is particularly high for women, who are more likely to be killed by a spouse, intimate acquaintance, or close relative. An Archives of Internal Medicine study found that, with one or more guns in the home, the risk of suicide among women increased nearly five times and the risk of homicide increased more than three times.
> ...



Good news!  Those people lived at least for a while.  They bought a gun because of a threat.  Some of it domestic violence.  You got a better idea of how a woman is suppose to defend herself?  You'd have a point IF I owned a gun.  I'm defending the Constitutional rights of others at this point.  Also, reserving the right to own one myself if circumstances dictate.

As to your troll status, you showed up after a long absence claiming to not discuss politics.  In short order you run to a gun control thread.  Seems unlikely you have been truthful with us.


----------



## westwall (Dec 11, 2012)

Arthur said:


> A 1997 American Journal of Public Health study showed that family members that had a history of buying a handgun from a licensed dealer were twice as likely to die in a suicide or homicide as were persons similarly situated who had no such family history of gun purchase. This increased risk persisted for more than five years after the handgun was purchased.
> 
> One study, published in The New England Journal of Medicine, found that having a gun in
> the home made it nearly three times more likely that someone in the family will be killed. This risk is particularly high for women, who are more likely to be killed by a spouse, intimate acquaintance, or close relative. An Archives of Internal Medicine study found that, with one or more guns in the home, the risk of suicide among women increased nearly five times and the risk of homicide increased more than three times.
> ...







I suggest you look up Dr. Edgar Suters response to these incredibly flawed "studies" where he quite quickly dismantles them as the political propaganda they are.  He's the Chair of the Doctors for Integrity in Policy Research Inc.


The Gun Zone RKBA -- Suter "Outs" Kellerman


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## Arthur (Dec 11, 2012)

saveliberty said:


> Arthur said:
> 
> 
> > A 1997 American Journal of Public Health study showed that family members that had a history of buying a handgun from a licensed dealer were twice as likely to die in a suicide or homicide as were persons similarly situated who had no such family history of gun purchase. This increased risk persisted for more than five years after the handgun was purchased.
> ...



Hey, I'm not into arguing.  I like to express my position and that's about it.

My position has nothing to do with "trouncing" on the Constitutional right to bear arms.

I'm commenting on the obvious.  We live in a gun culture.

A woman is much more likely to die in a DV home where guns are available.


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## westwall (Dec 11, 2012)

Arthur said:


> saveliberty said:
> 
> 
> > Arthur said:
> ...







See Dr. Edgar Suters response above.  Your figures are wrong and demonstrably so.  The study that it is based on was horribly biased and lacked any semblance of proper survey conduct.

But hey, if you wish to base your belief system on a lie, by all means do so.

I won't.


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## Arthur (Dec 11, 2012)

westwall said:


> Arthur said:
> 
> 
> > saveliberty said:
> ...



OK, when I have time I will check your Dr Sutgers.  Often these studies show correlation, not causation.  They're different.


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## saveliberty (Dec 11, 2012)

Are you suggesting that women in a DV situation be denied firearms?


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## Wry Catcher (Dec 11, 2012)

San Pablo couple slain at apartment - SFGate


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## Crackerjack (Dec 11, 2012)

Wry Catcher said:


> San Pablo couple slain at apartment - SFGate


I sure hope the cops catch the gun that did it.


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## saveliberty (Dec 11, 2012)

Reminding conservative members of USMB there are idiots out in the world is really unnecessary.  We deal with them on a daily basis.


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## westwall (Dec 11, 2012)

Arthur said:


> westwall said:
> 
> 
> > Arthur said:
> ...






Indeed they are.  Unfortunately for the studies you quote, they didn't even have good correlation till they fudged the numbers and violated statistical principles.


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## saveliberty (Dec 11, 2012)

westwall said:


> Arthur said:
> 
> 
> > westwall said:
> ...



That will leave a nasty scar.


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## westwall (Dec 11, 2012)

Wry Catcher said:


> San Pablo couple slain at apartment - SFGate







A terrible occurence for sure...but what do you want to bet that drugs are in the mix?  You want to really cause crime rates to drop?  Legalize all drugs.  Prosecute their criminal misuse by all means, but that would have an immediate positive effect on violent crime.


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## Arthur (Dec 11, 2012)

saveliberty said:


> Are you suggesting that women in a DV situation be denied firearms?



No.  I'm saying that it's more likely the women will suffer a fatality if there are guns in the DV home.


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## Arthur (Dec 11, 2012)

westwall said:


> Arthur said:
> 
> 
> > westwall said:
> ...



Prove they "fudged" the numbers.


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## saveliberty (Dec 11, 2012)

Arthur said:


> westwall said:
> 
> 
> > Arthur said:
> ...



Tell you what.  You bring your report here with the statistical tables and research model and I'll tear it apart for you.


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## Arthur (Dec 11, 2012)

saveliberty said:


> Arthur said:
> 
> 
> > westwall said:
> ...



Tell you what.  I'm going to relax NOT take you on.

I'm here to have fun.  I will express a position and tell you why I hold it and that's it.  I could care less if you agree or not.  I'm not here to prove anything.


----------



## saveliberty (Dec 11, 2012)

Probably a wise move, but I'll indulge my friends, if you don't mind.

A subsequent study, again by Kellermann, of fatal and non-fatal gunshot woundings, showed that only 14.2% of the shootings involving a gun whose origins were known, involved a gun kept in the home where the shooting occurred. (Kellermann, et. al. 1998. "Injuries and deaths due to firearms in the home." Journal of Trauma 45:263-267) ("The authors reported that among those 438 assaultive gunshot woundings, 49 involved a gun 'kept in the home where the shooting occurred,' 295 involved a gun brought to the scene from elsewhere, and another 94 involved a gun whose origins were not noted by the police.") (Kleck, Gary. "Can Owning a Gun Really Triple the Owner's Chances of Being Murdered?" Homicide Studies 5 <2001>.)

Debunking the '3 times more likely to be the victim' myth -- reprise - Democratic Underground

Secondly, no correlation was made between "independent" factors that actually may have been factors related to each other- they treated illicit drug use, having an arrest record, living alone or not, renting, having a gun, and a history of domestic abuse as independent variables without any relationship to each other. No collateral multivariate analysis was performed. The correlation to each control was not predicated on other factors, just gun ownership. They gave the same weight to a gun death in a household with someone with a previous arrest as to a gun death in a household where an intruder brought their own gun to a home invasion and shot the occupant (each weighting was independent, not cumulative). No correlation was explored for similar situations with the only difference being gun ownership.

Thirdly, there were significant differences between the study participants and the control. There was a 30% difference between home ownership vs renting between subjects and control, and a 15% difference in living alone or not. Only 48% of the control subjects were interviewed in person. Never mind that there were more users of illicit drugs, alcoholics, and persons with a history of violence in the households of the case subjects than in the households of the controls.

Finally, correlation doesn't equate to causation. They state in one place, "keeping a gun in the home was strongly and independently associated with an increased risk of homicide". "Associated with", not "causally related to". The possibility of why a gun was kept in the home was not explored nor accounted for- so a person who lives in a high crime neighborhood who may already be at higher risk of homicide death was treated the same as a person shot in a "nice" neighborhood.

Further reading (some are related to Kellermann's previous work on the subject, just to show how tortured his conclusions are):

Dave Kopel on NRO 

Kellermann-Gun Ownership as a Risk Factor for Homicide in the Home 

Its almost like he had a idea and created data to support his predetermined conclusion...


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## Arthur (Dec 11, 2012)

Knock yourself out.  I'm tired and not inclined to argue.


----------



## saveliberty (Dec 11, 2012)

Arthur said:


> Knock yourself out.  I'm tired and not inclined to argue.



I said it was for the conservative crowd's benefit.  Relax, enjoy and recharge.


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## Wry Catcher (Dec 11, 2012)

Clackamas Town Center shooting: 3 dead, including shooter; 1 seriously injured | OregonLive.com


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## Arthur (Dec 11, 2012)

Wry Catcher said:


> Clackamas Town Center shooting: 3 dead, including shooter; 1 seriously injured | OregonLive.com



Holy crap.  That's my old neck of the woods!


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## RetiredGySgt (Dec 11, 2012)

Wry Catcher said:


> Clackamas Town Center shooting: 3 dead, including shooter; 1 seriously injured | OregonLive.com



So? You have ignored every list of defense use of firearms. Ohh and explain why you are not haranguing us about the gang kills in Chicago. More people are shot and killed in Chicago then in Afghanistan. And remind me what the law on ownership and carry are there?


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## Arthur (Dec 11, 2012)

What an insensitive lout you are!

This just happened.  Tell the people in the Clackamas Mall how disciplined you are about firearms.  As if anyone there could give a shit.  

How would you like to be Christmas shopping and have some jerk blow your family away?


----------



## Crackerjack (Dec 11, 2012)

RetiredGySgt said:


> Wry Catcher said:
> 
> 
> > Clackamas Town Center shooting: 3 dead, including shooter; 1 seriously injured | OregonLive.com
> ...


Obviously WC got tired of being clowned with facts and tripped up with his own words, so he's just going to post stories _sans_ comment.


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## Wry Catcher (Dec 11, 2012)

RetiredGySgt said:


> Wry Catcher said:
> 
> 
> > Clackamas Town Center shooting: 3 dead, including shooter; 1 seriously injured | OregonLive.com
> ...



It's not my goal to list every defensive use of firearms in America.  I'm sure there are some but if you had read the OP, I doubted PC's statement that millions occur every year.  I'm posting a firearm murder or two every day; you have the right to post every defensive use of a weapon if you like.  If PC is correct - 2,000,000 divided by 365 = a hell of a lot for you to choose from - I will offer my mea culpa.


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## Wry Catcher (Dec 11, 2012)

Crackerjack said:


> RetiredGySgt said:
> 
> 
> > Wry Catcher said:
> ...



Two points:  1)  you've attacked me and not my argument; 2) you've used an emoticon.  Probable cause for me to assume you're a partisan hack and as dumb as a rock.


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## Arthur (Dec 11, 2012)

These are real people who lost their lives not more than a few hours ago.


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## Crackerjack (Dec 11, 2012)

Wry Catcher said:


> Crackerjack said:
> 
> 
> > RetiredGySgt said:
> ...


1) you didn't post an argument with that story, dipshit; 2) I posted it so you know I'm laughing at your dumb ass.

If this is the kind of critical thinker Cal is turning out, their standards have really slipped.


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## Arthur (Dec 11, 2012)

It surprises me that you're all so busy arguing gun control that you've missed a gun tragedy in Oregon.

I find that sobering.  Don't you?


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## Crackerjack (Dec 11, 2012)

Arthur said:


> It surprises me that you're all so busy arguing gun control that you've missed a gun tragedy in Oregon.
> 
> I find that sobering.  Don't you?


Your hero WC posted the link to the story.  I don't think any of us missed it.


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## Arthur (Dec 11, 2012)

Crackerjack said:


> Arthur said:
> 
> 
> > It surprises me that you're all so busy arguing gun control that you've missed a gun tragedy in Oregon.
> ...



Yeah, you may have seen the story but you haven't felt it.

I have heroes, but forum posters aren't in my list.


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## Crackerjack (Dec 11, 2012)

Arthur said:


> Crackerjack said:
> 
> 
> > Arthur said:
> ...


You're an empath now?


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## Arthur (Dec 11, 2012)

No, I am not an empath.  I read your stupid posts, for entertainment.

Freddy Kruger.


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## Crackerjack (Dec 11, 2012)

Arthur said:


> No, I am not an empath.  I read your stupid posts, for entertainment.
> 
> Freddy Kruger.


So how do you think you know what I feel, sweetheart?


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## Wry Catcher (Dec 11, 2012)

Arthur said:


> These are real people who lost their lives not more than a few hours ago.



Thank you.  A fact that is not even considered by the gun nuts.  I expect a number of them to claim if everyone had a gun at the mall only the shooter would have died.

BTW, not only did some lose their life; someone will be detailed to inform the family of those deceased, others who witnessed the shooting are victims too and countless people at the mall, at hospitals as well as journalists and shop keepers will be changed for ever.


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## Arthur (Dec 11, 2012)

I don't think you feel anything.


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## Crackerjack (Dec 11, 2012)

Wry Catcher said:


> Arthur said:
> 
> 
> > These are real people who lost their lives not more than a few hours ago.
> ...


Appeal to emotion and straw man.

Bravo!


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## Arthur (Dec 11, 2012)

Wry Catcher said:


> Arthur said:
> 
> 
> > These are real people who lost their lives not more than a few hours ago.
> ...



I know.  I lived in the area for many years.  This is like hearing about something that happened at home.


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## saveliberty (Dec 11, 2012)

Wry Catcher said:


> Arthur said:
> 
> 
> > These are real people who lost their lives not more than a few hours ago.
> ...



All because a nut killed people.  It could have been with a knife, bomb or poision for that matter.  Those families don't care by what method they died, they just want them back whole.  You're the one trying to use them for a political end.


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## Arthur (Dec 11, 2012)

Crackerjack said:


> Wry Catcher said:
> 
> 
> > Arthur said:
> ...



Some of us aren't appealingto emotion or strawman arguments.  We are commenting on an American tragedy, something that just happened and you don't even feel a thing about it.

Pathetic.


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## Arthur (Dec 11, 2012)

saveliberty said:


> Wry Catcher said:
> 
> 
> > Arthur said:
> ...



No, I'm not arguing for political end.  I fucking lived there in the Portland metro area for many years.  This is my home town.

It's a tragedy and some of you can't even feel that.

That said, I won't comment further tonight.


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## Crackerjack (Dec 11, 2012)

Arthur said:


> Crackerjack said:
> 
> 
> > Wry Catcher said:
> ...


Commenting on an American tragedy on a thread dedicated to politicizing such tragedies and capitalizing on the emotion therein to advance political goals.


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## Arthur (Dec 11, 2012)

Levity.  Try some.  I'm sure you're not the heartless bastard you portray in this thread, cracker.


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## Crackerjack (Dec 11, 2012)

Arthur said:


> Levity.  Try some.  I'm sure you're not the heartless bastard you portray in this thread, cracker.


I'm supposed to be laughing at this tragedy??

And weren't you leaving?


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## Wry Catcher (Dec 11, 2012)

Crackerjack said:


> Wry Catcher said:
> 
> 
> > Arthur said:
> ...



Facts moron, I've been on scene, have you?


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## Crackerjack (Dec 11, 2012)

Wry Catcher said:


> Crackerjack said:
> 
> 
> > Wry Catcher said:
> ...


Appeal to authority.

Still no facts in evidence, by the way.

Oh, and your punctuation sucks.


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## Arthur (Dec 11, 2012)

Crackerjack said:


> Arthur said:
> 
> 
> > Levity.  Try some.  I'm sure you're not the heartless bastard you portray in this thread, cracker.
> ...



Good night.

I hope you're not laughing.


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## Crackerjack (Dec 11, 2012)

Arthur said:


> Crackerjack said:
> 
> 
> > Arthur said:
> ...


Pull down a dictionary and look up the term "levity."


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## saveliberty (Dec 11, 2012)

The real danger here is people shooting their mouths off.


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## westwall (Dec 11, 2012)

saveliberty said:


> Probably a wise move, but I'll indulge my friends, if you don't mind.
> 
> A subsequent study, again by Kellermann, of fatal and non-fatal gunshot woundings, showed that only 14.2% of the shootings involving a gun whose origins were known, involved a gun kept in the home where the shooting occurred. (Kellermann, et. al. 1998. "Injuries and deaths due to firearms in the home." Journal of Trauma 45:263-267) ("The authors reported that among those 438 assaultive gunshot woundings, 49 involved a gun 'kept in the home where the shooting occurred,' 295 involved a gun brought to the scene from elsewhere, and another 94 involved a gun whose origins were not noted by the police.") (Kleck, Gary. "Can Owning a Gun Really Triple the Owner's Chances of Being Murdered?" Homicide Studies 5 <2001>.)
> 
> ...







Not "almost like".  He did and he did.


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## saveliberty (Dec 11, 2012)

westwall said:


> saveliberty said:
> 
> 
> > Probably a wise move, but I'll indulge my friends, if you don't mind.
> ...



Yes, but I have it in writing...


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## jtpr312 (Dec 12, 2012)

Let's use some facts to put a stop to this liberal nonsense.

 Guns are used for self-defense between 2.1 Million and 2.5 Million times every year. The following facts from the Kleck/Gertz study, relate directly to this fact.

&#8226;In the vast majority of those self-defense cases, the citizen will only brandish the gun or fire a warning shot. 
&#8226;In less than 8% of those self-defense cases will the citizen will even wound his attacker. 
&#8226;Over 1.9 million of those self-defense cases involve handguns. 
&#8226;As many as 500,000 of those self-defense cases occur away from home. 
&#8226;Almost 10% of those self-defense cases are women defending themselves against sexual assault or abuse. 
&#8226;This means that guns are used 60 times more often to protect the lives of law-abiding citizens than to take a life. 
&#8226;At an estimated 263 million US population, in 1995, when the study was released, it also means that an average of 1 out of every 105 to 125 people that you know will use a gun for self-defense every year.


A 1979 Carter Justice Department study found that of more than 32,000 attempted rapes, 32% were actually committed. That number dropped to only 3% when the woman was armed. That means that an unarmed woman is more than 10 times more likely to be raped than an armed woman



Since England passed its strict gun control laws, their previously low murder rate has almost caught up to that of the USA and according to a Reuters article on October 11, 1998 most other violent crime in England has passed the US crime rates. This is also supported by an October 1998 report of the Bureau of Justice Statistics.



there were 168,881 crimes of violence where police took more than 1 hour to respond. But, there's a reason for this.

Of the just under 800,000 combined full time, sworn law enforcement officers in the U.S., in 2000, only about 150,000 were on duty on the streets at any given moment to protect a population of roughly 281 million, at that time. That means that there was one policeman to protect almost 1900 civilians in 2000. That ratio has not changed significantly in many years.

http://http://actionamerica.org/guns/guns1.shtml


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## Wry Catcher (Dec 12, 2012)

Algiers man fatally shot during home invasion Monday night | NOLA.com

Liberal nonsense?  This thread is not nonsense, it is simply a chronicle of life and death in America.  That so many seem obsessed with attacking facts seems a bit odd, hence my use of the term gun nuts.  But, in using such a pejorative I'm not including all gun owners, only the wackadoodles who think they need firepower to take on the US Military.

No where have I suggested a sane, sober and responsible adult should be deprived of their Second Amendment right to own a firearm for self defense or sport.  Yet, I do believe the state and local communities have a duty to protect citizens from harm.

One method of doing so is some form of gun control.  Unfortunately,  the gun nuts and those who profit from the sale of firearms - and it is big business - argue guns are not the problem.  Per se, they are correct; so the problem becomes how do we keep guns out of the hands of those who are not sane, sober and responsible?

That's what this thread is about.  Not a liberal agenda, not nonsense, but a real problem which exists in our country and one in which the 'gun nuts' refuse to take part.


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## saveliberty (Dec 12, 2012)

Instead of fighting guns, try fighting greed.


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## Wry Catcher (Dec 12, 2012)

saveliberty said:


> Instead of fighting guns, try fighting greed.



Guns can be regulated; greed cannot.


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## Crackerjack (Dec 12, 2012)

Wry Catcher said:


> saveliberty said:
> 
> 
> > Instead of fighting guns, try fighting greed.
> ...


Just like drugs are regulated, right?


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## saveliberty (Dec 12, 2012)

Wry Catcher said:


> saveliberty said:
> 
> 
> > Instead of fighting guns, try fighting greed.
> ...



Which is one of the big reasons guns are handy.


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## Arthur (Dec 12, 2012)

Second amendment rights are one thing, frontier gun culture is another.  With all the stand your ground and make my day laws America is turning into a place where citizens take the law into their own hands.


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## Crackerjack (Dec 12, 2012)

Arthur said:


> Second amendment rights are one thing, frontier gun culture is another.  With all the stand your ground and make my day laws America is turning into a place where citizens take the law into their own hands.


So don't bother people.  Problem solved.


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## Arthur (Dec 12, 2012)

On April 6, 1998, the nation's two leading news magazines featured cover photographs of a young boy with a gun. The photograph on the cover of Time magazine was of a toddler named Andrew Golden, dressed in camouflage and clutching a high-powered rifle. Newsweek featured a slightly older Andrew Golden, still in camouflage, now clutching a pistol. The two magazines chronicled the brief lives of Golden and Mitchell Johnson, boys growing up in a culture in which parents thought it a good idea to pose their three-year-olds with deadly weapons and said, "Santa gave Drew Golden a shotgun when he was six." These two children were raised with guns, and with God. Mitchell Johnson had just "made a profession of faith and decided to accept Jesus Christ as his savior." He was active in his church and impressed the adults with his piety. But the temptation of a gun can trump a claim of faith in God and all dreams of childhood innocence. 

On March 24, 1998, these two boys, aged eleven and thirteen, set off the fire alarm at their school in Jonesboro, Arkansas, and then shot at the other children as they filed out of the building. Between them the boys had three rifles and seven pistols. In less than four minutes, they fired twenty-two shots, killing eleven-year-old Brittheny Varner, twelve-year-olds Natalie Brooks, Stephanie Johnson, and Paige Ann Herring, and their young teacher Shannon Wright, who was shielding one of her students. Golden and Johnson wounded ten other people, mostly children. 

In the United States of America in the 1990s, two million violent crimes and twenty-four thousand murders occurred on average every year. The weapon of choice in 70 percent of these murders was a gun, and thousands more are killed by firearms every year in accidents and suicides. In a typical week, more Americans are killed with guns than in all of Western Europe in a year. 

Arming America


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## Arthur (Dec 12, 2012)

Crackerjack said:


> Arthur said:
> 
> 
> > Second amendment rights are one thing, frontier gun culture is another.  With all the stand your ground and make my day laws America is turning into a place where citizens take the law into their own hands.
> ...



I see. You think it's ok to kill someone if they "bother" you?


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## Wry Catcher (Dec 12, 2012)

Crackerjack said:


> Wry Catcher said:
> 
> 
> > saveliberty said:
> ...



No, that's not what I posted.  Apparently you're not very bright.  

A gun is a product, an artifact; greed has always been an aspect of human nature.  Of course in the abstact human nature can be regulated, if one wanted to live in a dystopian society and 'treat' the greedy as Alex was in A Clockwork Orange.


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## Crackerjack (Dec 12, 2012)

Arthur said:


> Crackerjack said:
> 
> 
> > Arthur said:
> ...


I didn't say that.  I'm suggesting that if you are afraid of being shot by someone in a state with laws like that, then don't mess with people there.


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## Crackerjack (Dec 12, 2012)

Wry Catcher said:


> Crackerjack said:
> 
> 
> > Wry Catcher said:
> ...


So are drugs.  See the analogy?


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## Arthur (Dec 12, 2012)

It's ok.  We're just expressing our political postions, which differ from each other.


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## Spoonman (Dec 12, 2012)

Arthur said:


> Second amendment rights are one thing, frontier gun culture is another.  With all the stand your ground and make my day laws America is turning into a place where citizens take the law into their own hands.



the law is handcuffed by restrictions protecting the criminals.  you have no choice but to protect yourself


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## Wry Catcher (Dec 12, 2012)

Crackerjack said:


> Wry Catcher said:
> 
> 
> > Crackerjack said:
> ...



I see the comparison, but:  There is no Second Amendment right to drugs; of course there is no Constitutional authority granted to Congress to regulate drugs either.  Drugs are regulated by the Executive Branch, the DOJ promolgates regulations and in the case of drugs a schedule has been developed to regulate their use.


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## Arthur (Dec 12, 2012)

Spoonman said:


> Arthur said:
> 
> 
> > Second amendment rights are one thing, frontier gun culture is another.  With all the stand your ground and make my day laws America is turning into a place where citizens take the law into their own hands.
> ...



A person on this thread said that it's ok to shoot someone who is "bothering" you.  Isn't that a bit extreme?

Can't you figure out how to address someone "bothering" you?  I teach elementary school kids how to do just that thing without violence.


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## Crackerjack (Dec 12, 2012)

Wry Catcher said:


> Crackerjack said:
> 
> 
> > Wry Catcher said:
> ...


The point is that regulation doesn't solve all your problems.  It arguably makes them worse.


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## thanatos144 (Dec 12, 2012)

Guns mean freedom....Guns mean we are the last stand against tyranny... This progressives fear cause they  want to be tyrants.


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## Wry Catcher (Dec 12, 2012)

Spoonman said:


> Arthur said:
> 
> 
> > Second amendment rights are one thing, frontier gun culture is another.  With all the stand your ground and make my day laws America is turning into a place where citizens take the law into their own hands.
> ...



The law, i.e. the US Constitution protects all of us; in protecting yourself you must obey the law or become a criminal.


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## Arthur (Dec 12, 2012)

Guns do not mean freedom.  Freedom would be not needing guns at all.


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## Wry Catcher (Dec 12, 2012)

Crackerjack said:


> Wry Catcher said:
> 
> 
> > Crackerjack said:
> ...



Regulations are not a panacea, that is true.  Deregulation and anarchy aren't a solution; for those who seek to maintain a civilized society laws and regulations are the best we have.


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## Crackerjack (Dec 12, 2012)

Wry Catcher said:


> Crackerjack said:
> 
> 
> > Wry Catcher said:
> ...


Don't get me wrong, I'm not advocating anarchy.  What I am against are regulations that remove or restrict firearms from responsible adults, which are about 99.9% of all gun owners.


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## Arthur (Dec 12, 2012)

Americans own a whopping 270 million guns. That is 88.8 guns per 100 people. With only 4 percent of the world population, Americans own 42 percent of the entire 644 million guns in the world. India and China with a combined population that is more than seven times that of the U.S. are in distant second and third place with 46 million and 40 million guns respectively.

A recent study by the Harvard Injury Control Research Center concludes that "Where there are more guns there is more homicide."

The profit motive of the gun manufacturers is conveniently hidden by the gun lobby behind a misconstrued interpretation of the Second Amendment, presenting the case as a civil rights issue. 

The US is the number one exporter of arms worldwide.
Zaman Stanizai: Is American Gun Culture Compatible With a Modern Civil Society?


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## thanatos144 (Dec 12, 2012)

Arthur said:


> Americans own a whopping 270 million guns. That is 88.8 guns per 100 people. With only 4 percent of the world population, Americans own 42 percent of the entire 644 million guns in the world. India and China with a combined population that is more than seven times that of the U.S. are in distant second and third place with 46 million and 40 million guns respectively.
> 
> A recent study by the Harvard Injury Control Research Center concludes that "Where there are more guns there is more homicide."
> 
> ...


making you pee yourself inst it pussy???? All us free Americans armed.


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## Arthur (Dec 12, 2012)

A gun in a US home is 22 times more likely to be used in an accidental shooting, a murder or a suicide than in self-defence against an attack. 
Guns take pride of place in US family values | World news | The Observer

The USA is the Land of Guns, a ballistic paradise.


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## saveliberty (Dec 12, 2012)

Arthur said:


> A gun in a US home is 22 times more likely to be used in an accidental shooting, a murder or a suicide than in self-defence against an attack.
> Guns take pride of place in US family values | World news | The Observer



Your post is based on a study I debunked earlier in this thread.


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## thanatos144 (Dec 12, 2012)

Arthur said:


> A gun in a US home is 22 times more likely to be used in an accidental shooting, a murder or a suicide than in self-defence against an attack.
> Guns take pride of place in US family values | World news | The Observer



And if you believe that your a fucking idiot.


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## Spoonman (Dec 12, 2012)

Arthur said:


> Spoonman said:
> 
> 
> > Arthur said:
> ...



depends what bothering is. threatening my life? intruding into my home? if that person wasn't taught well enough to abide by the laws of society and even potentially puts my life or the life of my family at risk, then he is going to be at risk.   when you have succesfully taught everyone else out there not to be the aggressor, then we will have no need for guns.   sound like a deal?


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## Wry Catcher (Dec 12, 2012)

thanatos144 said:


> Arthur said:
> 
> 
> > A gun in a US home is 22 times more likely to be used in an accidental shooting, a murder or a suicide than in self-defence against an attack.
> ...



I dislike being the grammar/language police, but in your case I'll make an exception.  Don't call anyone a "fucking idiot" when your use of our language is so pitiful.


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## Wry Catcher (Dec 12, 2012)

Crackerjack said:


> Wry Catcher said:
> 
> 
> > Crackerjack said:
> ...



As I've posted many times I have no interest in taking firearms from responsible adults.  I believe anyone who wants to own, posess or have in their custody or control a firearm should be licensed, and said license should be revocable for cause.  Cause being they have proven by standards established by law that they no longer are responsible adults.


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## thanatos144 (Dec 12, 2012)

Wry Catcher said:


> thanatos144 said:
> 
> 
> > Arthur said:
> ...



And in comes the other fucking idiot.


----------



## westwall (Dec 12, 2012)

Arthur said:


> Second amendment rights are one thing, frontier gun culture is another.  With all the stand your ground and make my day laws America is turning into a place where citizens take the law into their own hands.







No, the laws are meant to make it safe for a homeowner to defend himself without fear of a politically minded DA prosecuting them for excercisingf their fundamental right to defend themselves.

The cases where people have claimed "SYG Law" defences when they were in fact the aggressor (like the asshole firefighter who murdered his next door neighbor in Texas) have been rightly found guilty of murder.  Zimmerman may be found guilty as well.

And if you wish to bring the history of the old west into it.  A UCLA professor wrote a book comparing crime rates in the west with those in the "civilised" east.  Other than murder (which was much higher in the west, but no surprise involved bad guys killing bad guys over 95% of the time) the crime rate in the west was significantly lower in the east.

Burglaries were rare (and those mainly consisted of stealing firewood stored outside, there were no home invasions) robbery was rare, and rapes were unheard of.

The book is "Gunfighters, Highwaymen and Vigilantes" and was published by the University Press.


----------



## westwall (Dec 12, 2012)

Wry Catcher said:


> Crackerjack said:
> 
> 
> > Wry Catcher said:
> ...







I believe the point he was making was we have now spent over one trillion dollars on the drug war.  How has that worked out for us?


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## westwall (Dec 12, 2012)

Arthur said:


> Americans own a whopping 270 million guns. That is 88.8 guns per 100 people. With only 4 percent of the world population, Americans own 42 percent of the entire 644 million guns in the world. India and China with a combined population that is more than seven times that of the U.S. are in distant second and third place with 46 million and 40 million guns respectively.
> 
> A recent study by the Harvard Injury Control Research Center concludes that "Where there are more guns there is more homicide."
> 
> ...






The number is over 300 million and when you remove gang violence from the mix, America has a lower crime rate than most of Europe.


----------



## westwall (Dec 12, 2012)

Arthur said:


> A gun in a US home is 22 times more likely to be used in an accidental shooting, a murder or a suicide than in self-defence against an attack.
> Guns take pride of place in US family values | World news | The Observer
> 
> The USA is the Land of Guns, a ballistic paradise.







That figure is a proven lie.  Try again propagandist.  You know Himmler said "if you tell a lie long enough people will beleive it" is that your MO?


----------



## westwall (Dec 12, 2012)

Wry Catcher said:


> Crackerjack said:
> 
> 
> > Wry Catcher said:
> ...










You crack me up.  What you advocate will eventually result in what is in fact your eventual goal.  The first step in banning firearms is licensing.  After licensing requirements come increased licensing fees.  Eventually those rees are so high the populace is disarmed.

You must really think we are stupid to believe this crap you are trying to spoon feed us.

You are a gungrabber through and through.  You may have sworn an oath to the Constitution but you'd wipe your ass with it in a heartbeat to garner your political goals.

You are not a defender of the COTUS or this country and its way of life, you are the exact opposite.


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## Wry Catcher (Dec 12, 2012)

westwall said:


> Wry Catcher said:
> 
> 
> > Crackerjack said:
> ...



The war on drugs is a failure; IMO prohibition will not work for guns or drugs.


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## Wry Catcher (Dec 12, 2012)

westwall said:


> Wry Catcher said:
> 
> 
> > Crackerjack said:
> ...


Thanks for sharing.


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## Wry Catcher (Dec 12, 2012)

Boy, 16, fatally shot in San Jose - SFGate


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## thanatos144 (Dec 12, 2012)

Wry Catcher said:


> Boy, 16, fatally shot in San Jose - SFGate



16-year-old stabbed to death, suspect arrested in Garden Grove - latimes.com

16 year old boy beaten to death

16-year-old killed in crash


Whats your point?


----------



## Wry Catcher (Dec 12, 2012)

thanatos144 said:


> Wry Catcher said:
> 
> 
> > Boy, 16, fatally shot in San Jose - SFGate
> ...



Nothing you could understand.


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## thanatos144 (Dec 12, 2012)

Wry Catcher said:


> thanatos144 said:
> 
> 
> > Wry Catcher said:
> ...



I know it must hurt to be shown how big of a failure your posts are.


----------



## Wry Catcher (Dec 12, 2012)

thanatos144 said:


> Wry Catcher said:
> 
> 
> > thanatos144 said:
> ...



You really aren't very bright, are you?  Be honest, on some level I'm sure you must have an inkling.


----------



## thanatos144 (Dec 12, 2012)

Wry Catcher said:


> thanatos144 said:
> 
> 
> > Wry Catcher said:
> ...



But I am still far more bright then you.....


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## westwall (Dec 12, 2012)

Wry Catcher said:


> westwall said:
> 
> 
> > Wry Catcher said:
> ...







Wrong, wrong and wrong.

Read some history sometime and you will see the natural progression that I described.  It has occured everywhere that firearms are now illegal for the populace to own.  Not my words but actual history.

I understand you don't like history, or the study of it, as it exposes you for what you are. But, fortunately, there are many more like me who actually know how to crack a book.


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## westwall (Dec 12, 2012)

Wry Catcher said:


> Boy, 16, fatally shot in San Jose - SFGate






You were in law enforcement so here are examples of why police should not be allowed the use of weapons.....

LiveLeak.com - Hurst PD To Investigate Officer Brutality and Abuse of Teen In Video

LiveLeak.com - Police bash a mans face on the ground for false shoplifting allegations - Black Friday

LiveLeak.com - Seattle Police Tried to Hide This Footage - Now Released

LiveLeak.com - Police officer could get 20 years for fracturing man's skull

I can go on for hundreds of listings for police abuse in just the US.  Far more cases of Police brutality than the gun crimes you are posting.

This is why the 2nd Ammendment exists.  To keep people like you in check.


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## asaratis (Dec 12, 2012)

Wry Catcher said:


> Today I've begun a list of incidents of gun violence,  It is in response to a thread begun by PoliticalChic who posted on page one of her thread Lott Guns Down Costas! this:
> 
> *3. ...what Costas ignores is that guns save a lot more lives than they cost each year. And that's not even mentioning the roughly 2 million times a year that people use guns defensively.*
> 
> ...



Look at it this way:

If guns were banned, the posts here regarding incidents where armed citizens successfully used guns defensively would be ZERO!

What a stupid fucking thread!


----------



## jtpr312 (Dec 12, 2012)

Arthur said:


> Second amendment rights are one thing, frontier gun culture is another.  With all the stand your ground and make my day laws America is turning into a place where citizens take the law into their own hands.



Another moron whose opinion is based on bs and not on facts.  I wish you people would pull your heads out of your asses and actually do some research prior to forming an opinion.


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## Wry Catcher (Dec 12, 2012)

westwall said:


> Wry Catcher said:
> 
> 
> > westwall said:
> ...



You have devolved into personal attacks and lost any credibility.  You have created a straw man and your proof is a classic slippery slope one.   Guns are a problem, not a solution; you are most welcome to deny that fact too.  Frankly and honestly I don't care what you believe since you leave out the essence of the issue - innocent people die every day.


----------



## SFC Ollie (Dec 12, 2012)

> CHICAGO -- A federal court ruling tossing out Illinois' ban on concealed weapons might end the last such gun prohibition in the country, but not without a fight.
> 
> The question is whether the battle will be an appeal to the U.S. Supreme Court, which has been silent on the issue of concealed weapons, or a legislative confrontation over the court's order that Illinois adopt a law allowing concealed carry with "reasonable limitations" as in other states.




Court ruling on Illinois gun ban sets stage for fight - Springfield, IL - The State Journal-Register

A victory for the 2nd..........


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## Arthur (Dec 12, 2012)

Dang, this subject doesn't bring out the best in anyone.


----------



## Arthur (Dec 12, 2012)

Child Development

As sure as prehistoric fish grew legs
and sauntered off the beaches into forests
working up some irregular verbs for their
first conversation, so three-year-old children
enter the phase of name-calling.

Every day a new one arrives and is added
to the repertoire. You Dumb Goopyhead,
You Big Sewerface, You Poop-on-the-Floor
(a kind of Navaho ring to that one)
they yell from knee level, their little mugs
flushed with challenge.

Nothing Samuel Johnson would bother tossing out
in a pub, but then the toddlers are not trying
to devastate some fatuous Enlightenment hack.

They are just tormenting their fellow squirts
or going after the attention of the giants
way up there with their cocktails and bad breath
talking baritone nonsense to other giants,
waiting to call them names after thanking
them for the lovely party and hearing the door close.

The mature save their hothead invective
for things: an errant hammer, tire chains,
or receding trains missed by seconds,
though they know in their adult hearts,
even as they threaten to banish Timmy to bed

for his appalling behavior,
that their bosses are Big Fatty Stupids,
their wives are Dopey Dopeheads
and that they themselves are Mr. Sillypants. 


Billy Collins


----------



## C_Clayton_Jones (Dec 12, 2012)

Abatis said:


> Actually, *YOU* are a lot closer to witnessing a vast swath of gun control being swept off the books and suffering a long period of complete and utter impotence of the left in getting any meaningful restrictions enacted.



Actually not. 

The courts have been relatively consistent in allowing to stand many gun restrictions and regulations since _Heller_: 



> *Extreme Second Amendment Lawsuits are Failing in the Courts*
> The Supreme Court may have opened the floodgates to Second Amendment litigation with the Heller decision, _*but the majoritys opinion also made clear that the Amendment protects only a limited right*_. The Court directly stated that the Second Amendment does not protect a right to keep and carry any weapon whatsoever in any manner whatsoever and for whatever purpose,8 and listed several examples of presumptively constitutional regulations.
> 
> Given the Courts clear instruction that the right to possess a handgun in the home for self-defense is consistent with a variety of gun laws, *its not surprising that lower courts have almost uniformly rejected Second Amendment arguments in hundreds of decisions in federal and state courts nationwide over the past four years.*
> ...


In addition to the courts validating various gun control measures, liberal lawmakers on the National level have indicated no intent to enact serious Federal regulation. Specific liberal lawmakers may be talking about introducing sweeping gun regulations  but its merely talk for local consumption, as any such proposed legislation would earn few if any co-sponsors and have little if any chance of making it out of committee for a floor vote. 

Unlike conservatives and abortion, liberals have accepted Second Amendment jurisprudence as settled law and moved on to other issues.


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## Arthur (Dec 12, 2012)

Every year there are 30,000 gun deaths and 300,000 gun-related assaults in the U.S. Firearm violence may cost our country as much as $100 billion a year.

Nonetheless, we have become so gun-loving, so blasé about home-grown violence that in my lifetime alone, far more Americans have been casualties of domestic gunfire than have died in all our wars combined. In Arizona last year, just days after the Gabby Giffords shooting, sales of the weapon used in the slaughter -- a 9 millimeter Glock semi-automatic pistol -- doubled.

There's a video of which I'd like to remind you. You can see it on YouTube. In it, Adam Gadahn, an American-born member of al-Qaeda, the first U.S. citizen charged with treason since 1952, urges terrorists to carry out attacks on the United States. Right before your eyes he says: 

"America is absolutely awash with easily obtainable firearms. You can go down to a gun show at the local convention center and come away with a fully automatic assault rifle, without a background check, and most likely, without having to show an identification card. So what are you waiting for?"
Bill Moyers: WATCH: Living Under the Gun


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## saveliberty (Dec 12, 2012)

Arthur said:


> Every year there are 30,000 gun deaths and 300,000 gun-related assaults in the U.S. Firearm violence may cost our country as much as $100 billion a year.
> 
> Nonetheless, we have become so gun-loving, so blasé about home-grown violence that in my lifetime alone, far more Americans have been casualties of domestic gunfire than have died in all our wars combined. In Arizona last year, just days after the Gabby Giffords shooting, sales of the weapon used in the slaughter -- a 9 millimeter Glock semi-automatic pistol -- doubled.
> 
> ...



Bill Moyers?  The raging liberal who lies at the drop of a hat?  You might want to check federal law on automatic assualt weapons.  I hope you don't teach the kiddos they can believe everything they see on PBS.


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## Arthur (Dec 12, 2012)

saveliberty said:


> Arthur said:
> 
> 
> > Every year there are 30,000 gun deaths and 300,000 gun-related assaults in the U.S. Firearm violence may cost our country as much as $100 billion a year.
> ...



No offense, but I respect Bill Moyers.  I don't discuss guns or gun culture with elementary school kids.
I'm not political at work.

You must be kind of right wing to find fault with PBS.

What "lies" do you think Mr Moyers has made?


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## saveliberty (Dec 12, 2012)

Arthur said:


> No offense, but I respect Bill Moyers.  I don't discuss guns or gun culture with elementary school kids.
> 
> You must be kind of right wing to find fault with PBS.



Who said you discussed guns with children.  I said, I hope you don't teach kiidos they can believe everything they see on PBS.  Not the same, or do I need to get Cookie Monster to tell you that?

The fault with PBS is it promotes a liberal agenda with tax dollars.  I don't think either party has that right.  I also think PBS has uotlived its place.  We now have cable TV which offers almost every form of interest to the public.


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## Arthur (Dec 12, 2012)

Look, you're not a lot of fun, bud.  Isn't there some kind of snark zone somewhere?  Go to it.  I'm on relax mode.

I don't teach kids about politics.  Period.


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## saveliberty (Dec 12, 2012)

Arthur said:


> Look, you're not a lot of fun, bud.
> 
> I don't teach kids about politics.  Period.



I think what you would be teaching them is critical thinking skills and pretend versus reality on TV.


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## Arthur (Dec 12, 2012)

I know you need to argue with someone.  I'm sure the forum provides plenty of people who'd love to argue with you.


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## saveliberty (Dec 12, 2012)

Arthur said:


> Look, you're not a lot of fun, bud.  Isn't there some kind of snark zone somewhere?  Go to it.  I'm on relax mode.
> 
> I don't teach kids about politics.  Period.



Three places on the board are semi protected, the rest is a free fire zone.  Don't like it?  Hit the exit.


----------



## Arthur (Dec 12, 2012)

saveliberty said:


> Arthur said:
> 
> 
> > Look, you're not a lot of fun, bud.  Isn't there some kind of snark zone somewhere?  Go to it.  I'm on relax mode.
> ...



Thanks.  I'll do that.  

Time to watch a movie or something.


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## saveliberty (Dec 12, 2012)

Someboy's mellow got harshed.


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## Arthur (Dec 12, 2012)

saveliberty said:


> Someboy's mellow got harshed.



Take up martial arts.


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## westwall (Dec 12, 2012)

Wry Catcher said:


> westwall said:
> 
> 
> > Wry Catcher said:
> ...







It's not a flase premise as any review of history proves the slippery slope concept to be absolutely correct.  I was not insulting you in the slightest, I was describing you and your goal.  How is that possibly an insult.


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## westwall (Dec 12, 2012)

Arthur said:


> Every year there are 30,000 gun deaths and 300,000 gun-related assaults in the U.S. Firearm violence may cost our country as much as $100 billion a year.
> 
> Nonetheless, we have become so gun-loving, so blasé about home-grown violence that in my lifetime alone, far more Americans have been casualties of domestic gunfire than have died in all our wars combined. In Arizona last year, just days after the Gabby Giffords shooting, sales of the weapon used in the slaughter -- a 9 millimeter Glock semi-automatic pistol -- doubled.
> 
> ...







As usual your figures are made up out of nothing but the fevered imagination of a anti gun propagandist.  You want civil discourse when you spew this crap?  You are a riot...of the funny kind.


----------



## tjvh (Dec 12, 2012)

Wry Catcher said:


> Today I've begun a list of incidents of gun violence,  It is in response to a thread begun by PoliticalChic who posted on page one of her thread Lott Guns Down Costas! this:
> 
> *3. ...what Costas ignores is that guns save a lot more lives than they cost each year. And that's not even mentioning the roughly 2 million times a year that people use guns defensively.*
> 
> ...



Every time a cop pulls his gun and arrests someone society is a much safer place, and I assure you it happens *every single day*. Now you're going to go all "because it's cops it's OK" on me... Well answer me this genius. How safe is society when *only* criminals, the Military and cops have guns? Keep in mind... Just because someone is a cop does not make them a good person. Like anything else, there are bad cops out there. How do you think America would be if criminals and bad cops alternated forcibly entering people's homes when they both know there is absolutely *nothing to fear*. The sorry ass anti gun crowd think they are doing society a favor by using gun violence as an excuse to trample the majority of law abiding citizens freedoms by *playing on people's emotions*. This anti gun... Excuse me, *anti freedom* Bullshit comes up every time some kook kills someone with a gun. Oddly enough, nobody seems to give a damn when some teenage girl runs over a child with a car while she's texting friends... A car isn't as frightening an *inanimate object* as a gun I guess.


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## Papageorgio (Dec 12, 2012)

Arthur said:


> Americans own a whopping 270 million guns. That is 88.8 guns per 100 people. With only 4 percent of the world population, Americans own 42 percent of the entire 644 million guns in the world. India and China with a combined population that is more than seven times that of the U.S. are in distant second and third place with 46 million and 40 million guns respectively.
> 
> A recent study by the Harvard Injury Control Research Center concludes that "Where there are more guns there is more homicide."
> 
> ...



How has the second amendment been misconstrued?


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## bigrebnc1775 (Dec 12, 2012)

Arthur said:


> Americans own a whopping 270 million guns. That is 88.8 guns per 100 people. With only 4 percent of the world population, Americans own 42 percent of the entire 644 million guns in the world. India and China with a combined population that is more than seven times that of the U.S. are in distant second and third place with 46 million and 40 million guns respectively.
> 
> A recent study by the Harvard Injury Control Research Center concludes that "Where there are more guns there is more homicide."
> 
> ...


Ass wipe I've already busted another shit stain for using irrelevant sources when it comes to firearms. the FBI in 2009 said guns sales went up and crime went down..


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## Wry Catcher (Dec 14, 2012)

There really is no point in debating gun controls.  I guess we simply bury the bodies and hope no one we know or love is victim of senseless violence.  Some believe guns are not a problem; I agree, it is the NRA and those who support the proliferation of guns for fun and profit who are the problem.


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## saveliberty (Dec 14, 2012)

Self defense is not fun Wry.  Its a right and protects many people from death at the hands of another on many occassions.  What your feelings tell you has little to do with reality.


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## Arthur (Dec 14, 2012)

another gun tragedy at an elementary school in connecticut.


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## bigrebnc1775 (Dec 14, 2012)

Arthur said:


> another gun tragedy at an elementary school in connecticut.



Don't you mean GUN FREE ZONE?


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## Wry Catcher (Dec 19, 2012)

"Marginalize NRA as the radical group it is"

Marginalize NRA as the radical group it is

Maybe some will see themselves as others do by reading this article. 

**************************************************

Man just released from jail kills 3, then self


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## saveliberty (Dec 19, 2012)

Maybe the left will wake up a realize there are many weapons to kill with.  Focus on the mentally unstable with violent tendencies.  You want to mandate smaller magazines, standard background checks and higher standards to own rapidfire guns?  For me, that falls within the limits of reasonable.


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## Wry Catcher (Dec 19, 2012)

History of the Boston Police Department | City of Boston

In the fall of 1997, the Boston Police Department began a historic move from its former headquarters located at 154 Berkeley Street to its new headquarters located at the corner of Ruggles and Tremont streets in Lower Roxbury. The move marked both a new beginning and the closing of a significant chapter in the history of the Boston Police Department.

*As the oldest police department in the country, the Boston Police Department (BPD) has a rich history and a well-established presence in the Boston community. The initiation of a formal department began in 1838, when the General Court passed a bill allowing the city of Boston to appoint police officers. *

The Second Amendment made sense when ratified in 1791; then no police departments existed, no 911 telephone service existed and most citizens lived in rural communities.  No one needs a high velocity weapon able to fire 30 or more rounds as quickly as they can pull the trigger and such a firearm was inconceivable to those in the 18th century.


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## Spoonman (Dec 19, 2012)

Wry Catcher said:


> History of the Boston Police Department | City of Boston
> 
> In the fall of 1997, the Boston Police Department began a historic move from its former headquarters located at 154 Berkeley Street to its new headquarters located at the corner of Ruggles and Tremont streets in Lower Roxbury. The move marked both a new beginning and the closing of a significant chapter in the history of the Boston Police Department.
> 
> ...




not true,  the first machine gun was invented in england in 1718.  lets keep the facts straight.


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## Spoonman (Dec 19, 2012)

saveliberty said:


> Maybe the left will wake up a realize there are many weapons to kill with.  Focus on the mentally unstable with violent tendencies.  You want to mandate smaller magazines, standard background checks and higher standards to own rapidfire guns?  For me, that falls within the limits of reasonable.



in rwanda they took away the guns. so they used machettee's


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## thanatos144 (Dec 19, 2012)

It isnt really about guns or people dieing ....This is about progressives need to keep others in shackles...Hard to keep people on bondage if they can fucking shoot you.


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## Wry Catcher (Dec 19, 2012)

Spoonman said:


> Wry Catcher said:
> 
> 
> > History of the Boston Police Department | City of Boston
> ...



Yep, I didn't know that - The Puckle Gun.  A little hard to carry though, don't you think?

"It is a tripod-mounted, single-barreled flintlock weapon fitted with a multishot revolving cylinder. It was intended for shipboard use to prevent boarding. The barrel was 3 feet (0.91 m) long with a bore of 1.25 inches (32 mm). It had a pre-loaded cylinder which held 11 charges and could fire 63 shots in seven minutesthis at a time when the standard soldier's musket could at best be loaded and fired three times per minute"
Puckle gun - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Seems more like a weapon for war than one used by a person to defend his home or business.


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## Wry Catcher (Dec 19, 2012)

thanatos144 said:


> It isnt really about guns or people dieing ....This is about progressives need to keep others in shackles...Hard to keep people on bondage if they can fucking shoot you.



After reading some of your posts I don't believe you need to worry about anyone putting you in shackles - it's much more likely someone will put you in a padded room.


----------



## thanatos144 (Dec 19, 2012)

Wry Catcher said:


> thanatos144 said:
> 
> 
> > It isnt really about guns or people dieing ....This is about progressives need to keep others in shackles...Hard to keep people on bondage if they can fucking shoot you.
> ...



I am pretty sure it isn't a mental illness speaking out against facism. Tell me when did you first realize you were a facist?


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## saveliberty (Dec 19, 2012)

Wry Catcher said:


> thanatos144 said:
> 
> 
> > It isnt really about guns or people dieing ....This is about progressives need to keep others in shackles...Hard to keep people on bondage if they can fucking shoot you.
> ...



Unlikely, in fact, it is the sad state of the mental health system that allows killers out in society to do what we witnessed.


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## Wry Catcher (Dec 20, 2012)

Wife tries to shoot husband over porn, police say

A lesson to all those gun huggers who have other fantasy's too.


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## Spoonman (Dec 20, 2012)

Wry Catcher said:


> Spoonman said:
> 
> 
> > Wry Catcher said:
> ...



but the fact is, they existed and the technology existed.  infact modifications and improvements continued throughout the century prior to the bill of rights.  a decade before the continental congress had been presented with a model that fired 20 shots in five seconds and was reloaded by cartridge.   they asked the inventor to modify their existing flintlocks to utilize an 8 round cartridge, which he did.   So they were fully aware of the technology and obviously had a real grasp on the direction of weapons when they wrote the Bill of rights


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## Wry Catcher (Dec 20, 2012)

Spoonman said:


> Wry Catcher said:
> 
> 
> > Spoonman said:
> ...



"Good to know, may I ask for a link to the info you've offered?  

I'm a bit skeptical of the inference you make from the post you offer as proof the founders could have known the fire power of a modern weapon could be so easliy carried and operate by one man.  Consiidering a decade after the continental congress had been presented with a model that fired 20 shots in five seconds and was reloaded by cartridge our forces and the British continued to use black powder muskets.

I suspect that the typical rural farmer of the time could barley afford the muzzle loaders of the day, I doubt the authors imagined a time when an average citizen could afford the weapons of war which have been offered as evidence in support of an unfettered Second Amendment Right.

I can imagine some day a lone shooter may set upon school children with weapons of war much greater than the AR 15; I can imagine people defending that future killers right to own and operate a Blackhawk Helicopter with an M60 Machine Gun.  Hyperbole?  Maybe a bit, but who could have imagined some asshole killing 168 men, women and children using a rented truck and fertilizer?


----------



## Spoonman (Dec 20, 2012)

Wry Catcher said:


> Spoonman said:
> 
> 
> > Wry Catcher said:
> ...



Will you be providing a link to validate your statement that the technology wasn't even conceivable in the 18th century when the bill of rights was written or will we be dealing with a double standard here. 

You can find the information in either of these two publications

Harold L. Peterson (2000). Arms and Armor in Colonial America, 1526-1783. Courier Dover Publications

United States Continental Congress (1907). Journals of the Continental Congress. USGPO


I can imagine a day when some fanatic will fly an airplane into a skyscraper or government office and kill thousands.   without even possesing a gun. Guns don't do the killing, people do.  ban guns and you will still have the fertilizer bombs, terrorist bombings and other sensless killings.  I could walk into a school with a sword and kill 20 kids as fast as he did with an AR 15without being stopped.  Dirty bombs are on the horizon too.  no gun legislation will stop them either.   The fact that the number of people who stop a crime with a personal weapon far outweighs the number of people who are killed with a gun is another side of the story the media will never print.  besides suicides, intruders shot are a large part of those gun shooting statistics.


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## Spoonman (Dec 20, 2012)

imagine how many more the oregon mall shooter would have killed had it not been for a legally armed citizen

Nick Meli, who had a concealed weapon, thought about shooting Oregon mall killer


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## Wry Catcher (Dec 20, 2012)

Spoonman said:


> Wry Catcher said:
> 
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I don't recall the source of this quote or to what it referenced; I'll use it here for it seems to me to be an appropriate response to  your most recent post:

"The idea that no solution exists never occurs to them, and in this lies their strength"

I was simply curious as to the source of your information.  That the technology existed in some form is not convincing to me that those who signed off on the Bill of Rights, and the Second in particular, had any great insight into how such language would be used in the Twenty-First Century. 

We both know, I hope, that there are limits to the types of arms a citizen can own, have in their possession, custody and control.  So the arguement might be better framed is not the absolute right of any citizen to own, possess ..., but what restriction should or can be imposed to mitigate the harm which we have witnessed time and again?


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## Spoonman (Dec 20, 2012)

Wry Catcher said:


> Spoonman said:
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They surely knew becaus the majority of the authors were members of the continental congress that not only viewed the rapid fire weapon presented but also made the request to the modification of the existing technology. They knew what they wanted and they clearly knew where they saw the future of weapons technology.  in fact, they specifially asked for it to be developed.  their vision was on the future.

No, that is you point of view.  The bill of rights does not put any restrictions on what type of weapons or technology can be owned.  by your logic, the first amendment does not put any limits or restrictions of freedom of speech.  it does not mention cell phones, the internet, emails.  these must not be protected by the first amendment, because they were not mention specifically, right?


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## Wry Catcher (Dec 20, 2012)

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First of all automatic firearms are restricted by law; as our other weapons of war such as a Fragmentation Grenade.   My freedom of speech/expression is likewise restricted by laws of slander, libel and threats and my right to carry a legal firearm on a plane, into a federal building or on a train is also restricted.


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## Spoonman (Dec 20, 2012)

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and all of those things you listed are restrictions that have been added in fairly recent years.  and i agree with you, they are wrong too.  just like any additional bans they try to pass through.  

now libel and slander indicate that the spoken or written word were false.  and spreading falsehoods is not freedom of speech.


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## saveliberty (Dec 20, 2012)

Question:  Were cannons banned from the public or merely not widely held by the public?


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## Spoonman (Dec 20, 2012)

saveliberty said:


> Question:  Were cannons banned from the public or merely not widely held by the public?



hey remember that guy killed his wife when he accidentally put a cannon ball through their trailer?


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## saveliberty (Dec 20, 2012)

Almost impossible to ban nuclear weapons successfully.  How many illegal chemical warfare stockpiles?  The desire to defend yourself is pretty universal.


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## Crackerjack (Dec 20, 2012)

Wry Catcher said:


> Wife tries to shoot husband over porn, police say
> 
> A lesson to all those gun huggers who have other fantasy's too.


She probably never would have stabbed him if no gun were around.


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## Wry Catcher (Dec 20, 2012)

Spoonman said:


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I don't think these restriction are wrong; why would anyone choose to allow a person to carry a firearm or a grenade on a passenger plane?

You've defined (or used staree decisis) to determine the First Amendment does not protect falsehoods, suggesting I suppose, that modern interpretations of the intent of the framers - a position in direct contradiction to Scalia and others who support original intent.  Which leaves me to conclude you support the decision to restrict the ownership, possession, custody and control of firearms by some classes of people (felons, wife beaters, robbers, paranoid schizophrenics) and restrictions banning weapons of war from civilians.  

Your turn.


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## SFC Ollie (Dec 20, 2012)

A cannon is even easier to build than a gun. I even know someone who built and has one....And yes he has fired it at least a dozen times that i know of.....


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## Wry Catcher (Dec 20, 2012)

SFC Ollie said:


> A cannon is even easier to build than a gun. I even know someone who built and has one....And yes he has fired it at least a dozen times that i know of.....



And said canon can be concealed, carried by one crazed killer into an elementry school or other pubic place?


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## jtpr312 (Dec 20, 2012)

Crackerjack said:


> Wry Catcher said:
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> > Wife tries to shoot husband over porn, police say
> ...




Guess you're a little too young to remember lorena bobbit huh?  God the ignorance of the American left would be funny if they're weren't so many of you brain dead morons around.


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## SFC Ollie (Dec 20, 2012)

I wonder what the open carry laws would say?


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## Wry Catcher (Dec 20, 2012)

jtpr312 said:


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Well aren't you an asshole.  I recall, she cut off her husband's Crackerjack.


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## Wry Catcher (Dec 20, 2012)

SFC Ollie said:


> I wonder what the open carry laws would say?



Laws "say"?  You really are strange.  I suppose you might want to buy or build a canon and tow it around town.  Let us know how the locals respond.


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## SFC Ollie (Dec 20, 2012)

Actually he could probably carry it...Must be about 3 ft long and weighs maybe 80 pounds....shell is a steel ball about 3" in diameter. Though I think he has made the balls out of pretty cheap stuff....And easier to melt than steel... I'll have to ask him next time i see him....


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## Crackerjack (Dec 20, 2012)

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I was being sarcastic.  Pull your head out of your Wry Catcher.


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## Wry Catcher (Dec 20, 2012)

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Nope,  you were not:  

Insults and sarcasm are very closely related, but there is a difference. They both can make people laugh at what is written. The difference is that an insult is done with the intent to ridicule; sarcasm is really done to be funny.

Yours was an insult, a personal attack; mine was sarcasm.


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## Spoonman (Dec 20, 2012)

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lmao, if you are arguing the authors of the constitution were advocating libel and slander you really are off your rocker.


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## Wry Catcher (Dec 20, 2012)

Spoonman said:


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Thanks for sharing, when you grow up come back.


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## Crackerjack (Dec 20, 2012)

Wry Catcher said:


> And said *canon* can be concealed, carried by one crazed killer into an *elementry* school or other *pubic place*?






Wry Catcher said:


> Nope,  you were not:
> 
> Insults and sarcasm are very closely related, but there is a difference. They both can make people laugh at what is written. The difference is that an insult is done with the intent to *reticule*; sarcasm is really done to be funny.
> 
> Yours was an insult, a personal attack; mine was sarcasm.







Believe me, I would never intend to reticule you.

Seriously, was your diploma written in crayon, or did you go to a good school where they use magic markers?


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## Spoonman (Dec 20, 2012)

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hey i haven't heard that one since the 3rd grade


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## saveliberty (Dec 20, 2012)

Wry Catcher said:


> SFC Ollie said:
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> 
> > I wonder what the open carry laws would say?
> ...



Pumpkin canons draw large crowds and fire projectiles great distances.


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## Crackerjack (Dec 20, 2012)

saveliberty said:


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				Merriam-Webster.com said:
			
		

> 1can·on _noun_ \&#712;ka-n&#601;n\
> 
> Definition of CANON
> 
> ...


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## Spoonman (Dec 21, 2012)

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Hey, since you are all hot for banning assault rifles, can you tell me how many people were killed with rifles last year?  you seem to think they are such a problem, you must have a general idea.


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## Wry Catcher (Dec 21, 2012)

Spoonman said:


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I hadn't been counting but will keep posting those killed with guns for a while.  It simply seems to me to be the correct thing to do; a counterpoint to those who cherish their guns more than human beings.

I do know 20 six and seven your olds were killed with a AR 15 a week ago today; that's seems to me the important number(s) - why don't you?

BTW, when you choose to cherry pick a sentence from a full post, and create a straw man, you've lost credibility.


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## Crackerjack (Dec 21, 2012)

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> Spoonman said:
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Speaking of straw men, who here " cherish[es] their guns more than human beings"?


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## Spoonman (Dec 21, 2012)

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well the number in a year is 343.  yep.  343.   hell over 4000 were killed with knives.

No when you lie and say that the technology for multiple shot weapons didn't exist when the 2nd amendment was written you lost all your credibility. 

you anti gun retards don't have a clue what you are talking about.  quote myths and falicies and make shit up.


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## Spoonman (Dec 21, 2012)

hey, remember Joe Biden, who will be heading up the gun control legislation on guns a few years ago?

&#8220;I guarantee you Barack Obama ain&#8217;t taking my shotguns, so don&#8217;t buy that malarkey,&#8221; Biden said to voters during a campaign stop in Castlewood, Virginia on September 20. &#8220;Don&#8217;t buy that malarkey. They&#8217;re going to start peddling that to you.&#8221;

Biden informed the crowd that he was the proud owner of two guns.

&#8220;If he tries to fool with my Beretta, he&#8217;s got a problem,&#8221; Biden added, referring to Obama


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## Wry Catcher (Dec 21, 2012)

Crackerjack said:


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Have you been reading the posts on this thread?  Don't ask stupid questions, hyperbole is a legitimate rhetorical device and one used appropriately in this instance.


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## Wry Catcher (Dec 21, 2012)

Spoonman said:


> hey, remember Joe Biden, who will be heading up the gun control legislation on guns a few years ago?
> 
> I guarantee you Barack Obama aint taking my shotguns, so dont buy that malarkey, Biden said to voters during a campaign stop in Castlewood, Virginia on September 20. Dont buy that malarkey. Theyre going to start peddling that to you.
> 
> ...



And I agree, a shotgun can be a very effective defensive weapon.  Much more effective and safer in the hands of a civilian than a high powered hand gun or a high velocity large capacity AR 15 capable of killing the bad guy and your nieghbors asleep in their beds.

*Bidens point was spot on, the liars who are gun huggers equate gun control/regulations with a full ban on firearms. *

BTW, you still haven't shown yourself to be an adult.


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## Spoonman (Dec 21, 2012)

Wry Catcher said:


> Spoonman said:
> 
> 
> > hey, remember Joe Biden, who will be heading up the gun control legislation on guns a few years ago?
> ...



and you haven't posting a link to your facts yet either.  kind of childish don't you think?  

wrong again.  you need to be armed with at least what your opponent may come at you with.  When you het all the guns out of the bad guys hands, can control the war on drugs, prevent breakins, muggings, personal attacks, then come talk about gun control.  fix the problems first before you try to leave us stranded.  all you are going to do if you ever got your way is create a black market for guns.  strengthen the gangs  and create an environment where guns are unregisted, illegal and untracable.   banning didn't work on booze, it doesn't work on drugs, it won't work on guns.  come up with a plan instead of a bunch of lame words, and outright lies.


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## saveliberty (Dec 21, 2012)

Appeal to authority:  Obama/Biden
Appeal to emotion:  Poor kids and poor scared me
Appeal to false conclusion:  No more assault gun deaths (even though they are semi autos)
Appeal to false logic:  Guns kill people.

Yep, racking up those wins lefties.


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## Wry Catcher (Dec 22, 2012)

Spoonman said:


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I'm 65, have owned a home since I was 24 and not once has my home been invaded by armed mobs.  How often has that happened to you?  Do you in moments of revere have fantasies wherein you save the day by blasting the bad guys?  Do you think that maybe you are a little bit paranoid?

A plan?  You want a plan from me to solve all social ills in a paragraph or two.  Sorry, I know arming the entire population isn't a solution, it's a nightmare.  I can list some things I feel would mitigate those things which apparently keep you awake at night:

1.  Parenting and parent effectiveness training
2.  Universal pre-school (as soon as toilet trained)
3,  Early identification of problems - medical, academic and social
4.  Early treatment of #3 issues
5.  Reform primary school education (do something which does not extinguish curiosity)
6.  Reform Secondary Education
     A.  Not everyone wants or needs a university education
     B.  Everyone needs to be able to read, write, speak clearly and compute
     C.  Establish technical training programs within the HS Diploma
     D.  Require six months of community service to graduate


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## saveliberty (Dec 22, 2012)

At age 23, a person attempted to enter the home I was renting in order to attack another person in the home.  They were armed with a box knife.  This person was subdued with a combination of Judo moves.  I used the appropriate amount of force to neutralize the situation.

As I age (51), there will come a time when I lose options and have to consider other defensive alternatives.  A gun may or may not be one I choose to use.  No liberal is going to determine what my options are.


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## Spoonman (Dec 22, 2012)

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Liberals would rip you a new asshole for those.  You can't dictate something like that to somebody. it would violate their rights.  we used to do all of those. but people got offended when they couldn't do a s well as the rest of the class.   funny we had plenty of guns around back then too.  and no gun control laws.  we've become a society of wimps.  a society of entitled assholes who over react when they don't get their way. We've gotten too soft.   you know what, i say throw in bring back the draft too.   if you aren't in school after highschool. whether it be a trade, vocational or college.  or if you aren't employed and receive no entitlement benefits, you should be eligible for the draft.   now you have an opportunity to learn a skill.


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## Spoonman (Dec 22, 2012)

saveliberty said:


> At age 23, a person attempted to enter the home I was renting in order to attack another person in the home.  They were armed with a box knife.  This person was subdued with a combination of Judo moves.  I used the appropriate amount of force to neutralize the situation.
> 
> As I age (51), there will come a time when I lose options and have to consider other defensive alternatives.  A gun may or may not be one I choose to use.  No liberal is going to determine what my options are.



they are trying hard as hell to


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## Wry Catcher (Dec 22, 2012)

saveliberty said:


> At age 23, a person attempted to enter the home I was renting in order to attack another person in the home.  They were armed with a box knife.  This person was subdued with a combination of Judo moves.  I used the appropriate amount of force to neutralize the situation.
> 
> As I age (51), there will come a time when I lose options and have to consider other defensive alternatives.  A gun may or may not be one I choose to use.  No liberal is going to determine what my options are.



You have every right to own, have in your possessing, custody and control a firearm in your home or at your place of business (if the owner/boss agrees) and liberals won't care or tell you, you can't have one.  Of course there are restrictions on the type of firearm you may own, limits imposed by the courts and legislatures.

I believe in gun control/regulation; I do not believe you or any sane, sober and socialized American citizen should be denied the right to keep and bear arms for self defense.  

I question the sanity of those who would spend a thousand dollars to purchase a new semi-automatic rifle and 10-100 round magazines based on the reelection of President Obama.  As a retired member of the law enforcement community such behavior raises a red flag to me and possibly others.


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## Wry Catcher (Dec 22, 2012)

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Wow.


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## saveliberty (Dec 22, 2012)

Wry Catcher said:


> saveliberty said:
> 
> 
> > At age 23, a person attempted to enter the home I was renting in order to attack another person in the home.  They were armed with a box knife.  This person was subdued with a combination of Judo moves.  I used the appropriate amount of force to neutralize the situation.
> ...



Well you don't TELL them that Wry.


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## SFC Ollie (Dec 22, 2012)

Wry Catcher said:


> saveliberty said:
> 
> 
> > At age 23, a person attempted to enter the home I was renting in order to attack another person in the home.  They were armed with a box knife.  This person was subdued with a combination of Judo moves.  I used the appropriate amount of force to neutralize the situation.
> ...



And as a retired member of the US Army I wished I had the extra cash to purchase an AR15 before the idiots of this country strip that right away from me...


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## freedombecki (Dec 22, 2012)

Spoonman said:


> hey, remember Joe Biden, who will be heading up the gun control legislation on guns a few years ago?
> 
> I guarantee you Barack Obama aint taking my shotguns, so dont buy that malarkey, Biden said to voters during a campaign stop in Castlewood, Virginia on September 20. Dont buy that malarkey. Theyre going to start peddling that to you.
> 
> ...


The little white lie that makes people think you know what you're talking about and it pleases them, so they vote for you.

And the creepy press plays brain-dead.  /shaking head


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## SFC Ollie (Dec 22, 2012)

freedombecki said:


> Spoonman said:
> 
> 
> > hey, remember Joe Biden, who will be heading up the gun control legislation on guns a few years ago?
> ...



Come on Becki, most of the left here didn't catch it.  Shotguns= more than one. I have 2 guns. (Both shotguns?) and a Beretta? I don't believe Beretta has ever made a shotgun...
So that's at least 3 guns, one of which is a semiautomatic pistol.....


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## Wry Catcher (Dec 22, 2012)

saveliberty said:


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I have.


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## C_Clayton_Jones (Dec 22, 2012)

Wry Catcher said:


> saveliberty said:
> 
> 
> > At age 23, a person attempted to enter the home I was renting in order to attack another person in the home.  They were armed with a box knife.  This person was subdued with a combination of Judo moves.  I used the appropriate amount of force to neutralize the situation.
> ...



Actually, we&#8217;ve seen and heard of others saying and doing equally idiotic things based on the reelection of President Obama.

It&#8217;s unhinged many on the right. 

But although such behavior might raise a red flag, it&#8217;s not sufficient justification to take some sort of action, either by law enforcement or law makers. 

It could be construed as a form of protected political free expression &#8211; particularly if the firearm, ammo, and magazine are acquired legally in the buyer&#8217;s jurisdiction. 

People say and do crazy things every day, which are perfectly legal and Constitutionally protected.


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## Wry Catcher (Dec 22, 2012)

C_Clayton_Jones said:


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Of course, I didn't suggest anything more than seditious comments might evoke curiosity in the mind of an investigator with jurisdiciton.


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## Wry Catcher (Dec 22, 2012)

Longview man, 62, dies after shooting; neighbor, 48, is accused in killing | OregonLive.com

Of note:  "Authorities say *he was shot with a 9 mm pistol that he owned*. An autopsy is scheduled for Sunday.


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## Wry Catcher (Dec 23, 2012)

http://www.azcentral.com/community/swvalley/articles/20121222boy-mistakes-gun-fires.html

NOPD investigating murder in Lower 9th Ward | NOLA.com

Sonoma County: Man dies after accidentally shooting himself in the abdomen - ContraCostaTimes.com


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## thanatos144 (Dec 23, 2012)

Wry Catcher said:


> http://www.azcentral.com/community/swvalley/articles/20121222boy-mistakes-gun-fires.html
> 
> NOPD investigating murder in Lower 9th Ward | NOLA.com
> 
> Sonoma County: Man dies after accidentally shooting himself in the abdomen - ContraCostaTimes.com



still acting like only gun crimes exist? Tell me how does it feel having to use dead kids to prop up your agenda?


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## Spoonman (Dec 24, 2012)




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## Wry Catcher (Dec 24, 2012)

thanatos144 said:


> Wry Catcher said:
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> > http://www.azcentral.com/community/swvalley/articles/20121222boy-mistakes-gun-fires.html
> ...



The children are dead, dead at the hand which held a gun.  All of the other news reports I have and will post here will report murder/death by gun.  You're free to post other crimes and you're free to produce new examples of American citizens saving lives and property by brandishing or using a firearm.

What you've done here is attack me and not the point being made.  I'm not for banning all guns, I simply want it to  be harder for the insane, monsters, criminals, drunks, gangsters and vigilantes to kill.

It seems clear that the gun huggers, those who have many guns and lots of ammo are 'insane'.  Insane in their belief that they are true patriots armed and ready to kill American citizens who might express ideas which conflict with the dogma they believe was the intent of men dead for two centuries.


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## Spoonman (Dec 24, 2012)

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yea, passing legislation that will limit citizens from their 2nd amendment right is sure to keep guns out of criminals hands.  I mean there is a law banning the use of pot and no one does that,  right?


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## bigrebnc1775 (Dec 24, 2012)

Wry Catcher said:


> saveliberty said:
> 
> 
> > At age 23, a person attempted to enter the home I was renting in order to attack another person in the home.  They were armed with a box knife.  This person was subdued with a combination of Judo moves.  I used the appropriate amount of force to neutralize the situation.
> ...




Some of us knew assault weapon ban talks were coming as far back as 2010 if obama was re-elected. When you have a government forced ban on something it will automatically increase the value of that item.
Thats just a fact of life.


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## Wry Catcher (Dec 24, 2012)

Spoonman said:


> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=evEg1VNfX3o



Very well done video, but (you knew that was coming) the example in #1 needs to be vetted.  You see he defeats his own argument, when he states Congress may make no law prohibiting the free exercise of religion.  Parents who withhold life-saving teatment/medication to their child based on religious beliefs have had the exercise of their belief prohibited.

I know, you could argue that those cases are few and no parent has ever taken this prohibition of their right to practice their religion to the Supreme Court (as far as I know).

He also argues at the end that allowing for one restriction on guns will create a slippery slope (as we all know, a Slippery Slope Argument is fallacious) and soon all guns will be band.

BTW, a rifle behind every blade of grass?  In the 21st Century, really?  How do you spell 'drone'; does he not understand command and control by satelite, sorties by one AF/Navy/Marine fighter jet with advance weapon systems out of range of a rifle vis a vis an ad hoc group of middle aged guys?


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## Wry Catcher (Dec 24, 2012)

bigrebnc1775 said:


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Which is why criminal and civil penalties must rise too.


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## Wry Catcher (Dec 24, 2012)

A gunman shot and killed at least two firefighters responding to a house fire at a Rochester suburb early today.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2012/12/24/webster-new-york-firefighter-shot/1788917/


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## thanatos144 (Dec 24, 2012)

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So in your hate filled fascist ignorant mind you think the gun possessed the man and forced him to kill so many children? Tell me how is it you survive living in a fantasy?


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## thanatos144 (Dec 24, 2012)

Wry Catcher said:


> A gunman shot and killed at least two firefighters responding to a house fire at a Rochester suburb early today.
> 
> 4 firefighters shot, 2 killed at Webster, N.Y., fire



Does it turn you on when you read gun crime???? Are you ashamed of some sexual perversion and thats why you want them banned?


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## thanatos144 (Dec 24, 2012)

If we are going to ban something cause of how many children are killed because of it when are we banning abortion????? 40+ million dead children since 1973.


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## bigrebnc1775 (Dec 24, 2012)

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There is no need for a ban if you do that.


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## Spoonman (Dec 24, 2012)

Wry Catcher said:


> Spoonman said:
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> > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=evEg1VNfX3o
> ...


  yep and those parents have had their rights violated.  the constiturion is specific that government will not interfere with the practice of ones religion.  yet they did.  see you have been sucked in to the complicity.  you let them move the line in the sand and then you use that shift as justification.  step by step it move back to what our forefathers tried to prevent


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## PredFan (Dec 24, 2012)

thanatos144 said:


> Wry Catcher said:
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He's a liberal, they all live in a fantasy. If they lived in reality, they would be conservatives.


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## Wry Catcher (Dec 24, 2012)

PredFan said:


> thanatos144 said:
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What makes me a "liberal"?

What "fantasy" do I live?

How do you define "conservative"?


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## Wry Catcher (Dec 24, 2012)

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> > Spoonman said:
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"They" also have found that some speech and expression is prohibited; next time you board a plane say, "Bomb" and mumble "God is Great" - see what happens to your Free Speech then.


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## Wry Catcher (Dec 25, 2012)

Merry Christmas to all and to all a happy, healthy new year.


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## Wry Catcher (Dec 28, 2012)

Police: NJ man shot wife, self on Christmas | 6abc.com


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## Crackerjack (Dec 30, 2012)

Wry Catcher said:


> Crackerjack said:
> 
> 
> > Wry Catcher said:
> ...


So you admit to talking out of your ass.  Got it.


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## thanatos144 (Dec 30, 2012)

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=-taU9d26wT4]NRA: The Untold Story of Gun Confiscation After Katrina - YouTube[/ame]


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## SFC Ollie (Dec 31, 2012)

A recent breakup set off a shooting spree that ended with the suspect wounding a man at the Santikos Mayan Palace 14 movie theater Sunday night before being shot by an off-duty deputy, authorities said. Police are shown questioning men outside the theater Sunday night.. Jesus Manuel Garcia, 19, an employee at a nearby China Garden restaurant, apparently became upset Sunday night after his girlfriend broke up with him. Photo: JOHN DAVENPORT, San Antonio Express-News / San Antonio Express-News

Read more: Two wounded in theater shooting - San Antonio Express-News


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## Wry Catcher (Jan 1, 2013)

Gilroy man, 51, dies of multiple gunshot wounds - San Jose Mercury News

http://blogs.sacbee.com/crime/archi...sacramento-shooting-that-leaves-two-dead.html

Armed Security guard shoots and is shot by perp.


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## Wry Catcher (Jan 2, 2013)

Gunman sought in fatal shooting at S. Houston gas station - Houston Chronicle


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## thanatos144 (Jan 3, 2013)

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=fzKXrqdpbd4]Concealed Carry + Mass Shooting = More Carnage? - YouTube[/ame]


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## Wry Catcher (Jan 4, 2013)

Top guns recovered by ATF in Texas | Newswatch | a Chron.com blog

ATF Online - Firearms - Guides - Importation & Verification of Firearms, Ammunition and Implements of War - Firearms Verification


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## bigrebnc1775 (Jan 4, 2013)

Wry Catcher said:


> Top guns recovered by ATF in Texas | Newswatch | a Chron.com blog
> 
> ATF Online - Firearms - Guides - Importation & Verification of Firearms, Ammunition and Implements of War - Firearms Verification


You think some of obama's fast and the furious guns found it's way into Texas?


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## Wry Catcher (Jan 4, 2013)

bigrebnc1775 said:


> Wry Catcher said:
> 
> 
> > Top guns recovered by ATF in Texas | Newswatch | a Chron.com blog
> ...



I suspect Obama had little to nothing to do with guns in the hands of Mexican gang members; I think those who sold the guns to Mexican thugs or their intermediaries bear the responsibility.


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## bigrebnc1775 (Jan 4, 2013)

Wry Catcher said:


> bigrebnc1775 said:
> 
> 
> > Wry Catcher said:
> ...



However it is his departments and they did allow weapons to cross the border with mexico.


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## Wry Catcher (Jan 4, 2013)

bigrebnc1775 said:


> Wry Catcher said:
> 
> 
> > bigrebnc1775 said:
> ...



Yep, and on GWB's watch we were attacked on 9-11, the economy nearly crashed and the Great Recession commenced.  On Clinton's watch Cole was attacked and the WTC was too; on George H. W. Bush's watch taxes were raised; on Reagan's watch we saw the nation's largess go the the Military Industrial Complex, we saw our nation attack Panama, Granada and Libya, the national debt soar and taxes raise; on Carter's watch Iran took over our embassy; on Ford's watch we saw Stagflation and OPEC's oil embargo and on Nixon's watch a petty burglary lead to his resignation and we were embarrassed in Vietnam.


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## Wry Catcher (Jan 4, 2013)

And during all of those administrations we saw lone gunman shoot and kill masses of innocent civilians.


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## bigrebnc1775 (Jan 5, 2013)

Wry Catcher said:


> And during all of those administrations we saw lone gunman shoot and kill masses of innocent civilians.



Glad we agree gun control gun free zones and assault weapons ban do not work.


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## thanatos144 (Jan 5, 2013)

> Senator Dianne Feinstein,
> 
> I will not register my weapons should this bill be passed, as I do not believe it is the government&#8217;s right to know what I own. Nor do I think it prudent to tell you what I own so that it may be taken from me by a group of people who enjoy armed protection yet decry me having the same a crime. You ma&#8217;am have overstepped a line that is not your domain. I am a Marine Corps Veteran of 8 years, and I will not have some woman who proclaims the evil of an inanimate object, yet carries one, tell me I may not have one.
> 
> ...



U.S. Marine&#8217;s Scathing Response to Sen. Feinstein&#8217;s Gun Control Proposal: &#8216;I Am Not Your Subject. I Am the Man Who Keeps You Free&#8217; | TheBlaze.com


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## Wry Catcher (Jan 5, 2013)

bigrebnc1775 said:


> Wry Catcher said:
> 
> 
> > And during all of those administrations we saw lone gunman shoot and kill masses of innocent civilians.
> ...



Sad that you believe no solution exists but to arm every man and women in our country.


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## Wry Catcher (Jan 5, 2013)

thanatos144 said:


> > Senator Dianne Feinstein,
> >
> > I will not register my weapons should this bill be passed, as I do not believe it is the governments right to know what I own. Nor do I think it prudent to tell you what I own so that it may be taken from me by a group of people who enjoy armed protection yet decry me having the same a crime. You maam have overstepped a line that is not your domain. I am a Marine Corps Veteran of 8 years, and I will not have some woman who proclaims the evil of an inanimate object, yet carries one, tell me I may not have one.
> >
> ...



Eight years a Marine and still an E-4, 'nuff said.


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## bigrebnc1775 (Jan 5, 2013)

Wry Catcher said:


> bigrebnc1775 said:
> 
> 
> > Wry Catcher said:
> ...



Until someone comes up with a workable solution arming every man and woman is the only thing that is viable


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## thanatos144 (Jan 5, 2013)

Wry Catcher said:


> thanatos144 said:
> 
> 
> > > Senator Dianne Feinstein,
> ...



Still more honor then you will ever have......All you fascists ever have is to personally attack those who fight for your freedoms...Pathetic.


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## Wry Catcher (Jan 5, 2013)

thanatos144 said:


> Wry Catcher said:
> 
> 
> > thanatos144 said:
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I'm a vet, are you?


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## Wry Catcher (Jan 5, 2013)

Florida mother kills infant son in murder-suicide attempt, police say - CNN.com


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## bigrebnc1775 (Jan 5, 2013)

Wry Catcher said:


> Florida mother kills infant son in murder-suicide attempt, police say - CNN.com



And? There is no way anyone could have prevented this. If someone has it in their mind too kill themselves their is nothing anyone can do to stop it. But their is that mental illness thing again.


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## thanatos144 (Jan 5, 2013)

Wry Catcher said:


> thanatos144 said:
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Nope and Nor do I think you are.


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## Pogo (Jan 6, 2013)

thanatos144 said:


> Still more honor then you will ever have......All you fascists ever have is to personally attack those who fight for your freedoms...Pathetic.




_Yet again_ with the "fascism" chew toy?

Yesterday this guy was labeling anyone who refused to shop at Wal-Mart a "fascist".
I'd guess if somebody nicked his car door in a parking lot, they'd be a 'fascist' too.
His sports team lost the game because the other side ran "fascist" plays.
The restaurant overcooks the omelet? Cook's a "fascist".
What's that barking?  "Fascist" dog.

Screwball.


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## thanatos144 (Jan 7, 2013)

Pogo said:


> thanatos144 said:
> 
> 
> > Still more honor then you will ever have......All you fascists ever have is to personally attack those who fight for your freedoms...Pathetic.
> ...


 no I wasn't you stupid fuck. I was labeling you ignorant progressives fascists cause that's what you are.


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## Wry Catcher (Jan 7, 2013)

thanatos144 said:


> Wry Catcher said:
> 
> 
> > thanatos144 said:
> ...



Enlisted in 1967, served on a DD and I'll describe my General Qtrs job.  Other Navy vets can verify.

I was the Projectile man in a fixed 5" 38 gun.  I would step on the release pedal and lift  a 55 pound projectile and place it in the breach after the powder man has place the brass in the breach.  I was trained in that job 'cause I'm 6' 2" and able to lift the projectile above my head when our target was at sea level.  Mostly our targets where aircraft, so height was not an issue.

The projectiles were placed in the host by seaman in the handling room just forward of the Chiefs quarters in the forward guns and just aft of after steering/the laundry for the one gun on the fan tail.  There were two hoists, so in a rapid fire situation I might - and once did - put 18 projectiles into the breach in one minute.  

Actually I don't care what you believe but don't ever use the phrase, "I think", it doesn't fit you.


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## thanatos144 (Jan 7, 2013)

Wry Catcher said:


> thanatos144 said:
> 
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> > Wry Catcher said:
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Oh I am sorry but was I suppose to believe or care what someone tells me online about themselves?


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## Wry Catcher (Jan 7, 2013)

thanatos144 said:


> Wry Catcher said:
> 
> 
> > thanatos144 said:
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Should I post my DD-214?


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## thanatos144 (Jan 7, 2013)

Wry Catcher said:


> thanatos144 said:
> 
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why would you post your bra?


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## Wry Catcher (Jan 7, 2013)

Man shoots himself under St. Johns Bridge in Portland | OregonLive.com

It's not only people who suffer, 

Dog shot, tied in garbage bag and left to die along Conroe road - Houston Chronicle


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## thanatos144 (Jan 8, 2013)

Wry Catcher said:


> Man shoots himself under St. Johns Bridge in Portland | OregonLive.com
> 
> It's not only people who suffer,
> 
> Dog shot, tied in garbage bag and left to die along Conroe road - Houston Chronicle



Then give up your guns sheep leave mine the fuck alone I refuse to give up my arms cause you Are to fucking stupid to separate criminals from non criminals! I refuse to live in your fascist wet dream of a country!


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## Wry Catcher (Jan 10, 2013)

"The United States suffers far more violent deaths than any other wealthy nation, due in part to the widespread possession of firearms and the practice of storing them at home in a place that is often unlocked, according to a report released Wednesday by two of the nation&#8217;s leading health research institutions."

Violence plays role in shorter US life expectancy - Nation - The Boston Globe


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## earlycuyler (Jan 10, 2013)

boedicca said:


> What percent of guns in the U.S. are used in crimes each year?



Allot to be sure, but only because we have more big cities, with more people in them.


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## The Infidel (Jan 10, 2013)

Wry Catcher said:


> "The United States suffers far more violent deaths than any other wealthy nation, due in part to the widespread possession of firearms and the practice of storing them at home in a place that is often unlocked, according to a report released Wednesday by two of the nations leading health research institutions."
> 
> Violence plays role in shorter US life expectancy - Nation - The Boston Globe






Local TV Anchor Delivers Blistering Fact-Check of Piers Morgan&#8217;s Anti-Gun Claims | Video | TheBlaze.com

_Swann noted that those like Morgan who seek greater gun control measures lose their argument when they claim that fewer guns equals less crime. To make this point, he explored the crime rates in Great Britain, the U.S. and other nations around the globe._


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## Ringel05 (Jan 10, 2013)

Massachusetts man beats girlfriend with 4-foot python, snake dies | al.com

Police: Olivette man beats girlfriend with bed post; flees police and crashes : Stltoday

Police: Sandy Springs man beats girlfriend with dog, snaps its neck - Atlanta Crime | Examiner.com

Police: Staten Island man beats wife of 20 years to death with a bat - NYPOST.com

» Man Beats Wife With His Dick When She Refuses To Have Sex With Him Barstool Sports  Chicago


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## Wry Catcher (Jan 10, 2013)

Controversial Second Amendment protest in Portland wouldn't fly in California | OregonLive.com

Comments?

http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarep...-mental-health-must-part-gun-legislation.html


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## Ringel05 (Jan 11, 2013)

PD: Man beats estranged wife to death with toilet tank lid - CBS 5 - KPHO

Police: Man binds, beats wife, then calls 911 | New Mexico News - KOAT Home

Man Stabs Mother To Death Over TV Show « CBS Tampa

WEAR ABC 3 :: Top Stories - Robertsdale man stabs child

OPD: New Mexico man stabs family member - Odessa American: Law Enforcement


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## Wry Catcher (Jan 11, 2013)

Ringel05 said:


> PD: Man beats estranged wife to death with toilet tank lid - CBS 5 - KPHO
> 
> Police: Man binds, beats wife, then calls 911 | New Mexico News - KOAT Home
> 
> ...



I'll play, I'm in this for the long hall.

I'm sure you didn't read this link,

http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarep...-mental-health-must-part-gun-legislation.html

So I'll post it again.  Why?  Because unlike you I'm not a one trick pony.  I understand that the issue of gun control has legitimate arguments from both sides and will report interesting side bars as they occur.  You can continue to mock the effort if it entertains you.  I do find it funny in both a Ha Ha and a sad way.


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## Ringel05 (Jan 11, 2013)

Wry Catcher said:


> Ringel05 said:
> 
> 
> > PD: Man beats estranged wife to death with toilet tank lid - CBS 5 - KPHO
> ...



I read it and I have backed the NRAs constant push to standardize background checks using the FBIs NICS , instead of each state conducting their own and to have certain types of mental illnesses added to the denial list.  
Too bad ya didn't ask that in the first place.  I do find it funny in both a Ha Ha and a sad way.........


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## Dubya (Jan 11, 2013)

Wry Catcher said:


> Today I've begun a list of incidents of gun violence,  It is in response to a thread begun by PoliticalChic who posted on page one of her thread Lott Guns Down Costas! this:
> 
> *3. ...what Costas ignores is that guns save a lot more lives than they cost each year. And that's not even mentioning the roughly 2 million times a year that people use guns defensively.*
> 
> ...



When I was a kid, we used to go down state to a produce stand; it was rather large. The man who ran the business was a long time friend of our family and so was his wife and their three boy kids. The man kept a loaded gun on top of his refrigerator. One day a neighborhood kid entered his house, thought it was a toy and shot his youngest son right through the brain. 

The man's life went totally south; his wife divorced him and the last time I saw him, he was managing a gas station. Across the street from the gas station was a diner. He walks across the street for a meal and is hit by a truck. I don't think that guy was that stupid to be hit by a truck and he just gave it up. 

If you want guns, that's your right, but even after serving in the Marine Corps, I'm not going to have them around kids. When I was a young man and in fear, because I lived in what was called the murder capital of America, I bought a shotgun. I remember going hunting with a distant cousin and he just barely missed my head with a round from a 30-30. He wasn't watching what he was doing, didn't have the rifle on safe and stepped in a groundhog hole. I wrapped my first shotgun around a telephone pole and threw it away.

To me it's a choice! I don't see a threat where I live, but the danger of weapons is more of a threat, when kids are involved. I know it isn't that way everywhere, so I allow other people to make their own choice. Believe it or not, I'm not a dictator.


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## thanatos144 (Jan 11, 2013)

The Infidel said:


> Wry Catcher said:
> 
> 
> > "The United States suffers far more violent deaths than any other wealthy nation, due in part to the widespread possession of firearms and the practice of storing them at home in a place that is often unlocked, according to a report released Wednesday by two of the nations leading health research institutions."
> ...


Brilliant.


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## SFC Ollie (Jan 11, 2013)

Dubya said:


> Wry Catcher said:
> 
> 
> > Today I've begun a list of incidents of gun violence,  It is in response to a thread begun by PoliticalChic who posted on page one of her thread Lott Guns Down Costas! this:
> ...



I learned to shoot when I was 8 years old. Had a gun or guns in our house as long as I can remember. Mom had hers normally in a pouch on the side of her rocking recliner, we all knew it was there and loaded. We also knew that it was dangerous and not a toy....
It's called education and safety....... My kids all learned the same lesson and they now all have guns in their homes. And gee, no one has shot anyone yet...........


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## Spoonman (Jan 11, 2013)

Dewalts new line of nail guns


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## PredFan (Jan 12, 2013)

And then there's this one. A woman and her twin children who's lives were most probably saved:

Woman hiding with kids shoots intruder | www.wsbtv.com


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